Transcript: Does Coconut Oil Clog Arteries?

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Even if the science isn’t there, why at least not try treating Alzheimer’s with coconut oil? Well, unlike other natural remedies—like the spice saffron, which was able to beat out placebo, and seemed to work as well as the leading drug, without the side effects—coconut oil is one of the rare plant sources of saturated fat (normally only found in animals), which tends to increase LDL, or bad cholesterol, the #1 risk factor for our #1 killer, heart disease. So, hey, I mean, you want to try coconut oil on someone with Alzheimer’s for a few days, to see if it makes a difference? Fine. God, I’d try almost anything. But, if, as expected, you don’t see any improvement, I’d be hesitant to keep anyone on it long-term.

Now, those selling coconut oil say one needn’t worry, because coconut oil contains a saturated fat that doesn’t raise cholesterol. You hear the same thing from the beef people. The National Cattlemen’s Beef Association is always going on about how beef contains a saturated fat called stearic acid. Unlike those evil saturated fats, palmitic, myristic, and lauric acids, which do increase blood cholesterol levels, stearic acid has been shown to have a neutral effect on blood cholesterol.

Now, see, that’s true, and beef does contain stearic acid. But, guess what? It has twice as much of the palmitic and myristic—which they just admitted does raise cholesterol. It’s like Coca Cola saying they know for a fact that soda doesn’t make you gain weight, because Coke contains water, and water has a neutral effect on weight gain. Yeah, but that’s not the only thing in it—and the same thing with beef, and the same thing with coconut oil.

Years ago, I profiled this study that found that cholesterol levels were significantly lower during a coconut oil diet—but only when compared to a “butter diets.” You know you’ve got a problem when the only way you can make your product look good is to compare it to diets rich in butter. Yes, it made bad cholesterol go up—but not as bad as butter. But, how much is that really saying?

Now, that was all the science we had for ten years. But, four new studies have recently come out—a population study, and three clinical studies. The population was of Filipino women, and although those that ate the most coconut oil had the worst levels of bad cholesterol, those that ate the most coconut oil were also more overweight—which alone can raise your cholesterol. When the fact that the coconut oil-eaters were eating more calories, were more overweight, when that was kind of factored out, the rise in cholesterol lost statistical significance.

To really control for factors, though, you’ve got to put it to the test. The first clinical trial involved giving people two tablespoons of coconut oil a day for three months. And, their bad cholesterol went up a bit, but not significantly. During this time, though, they were all forced to lose weight by being placed on a calorie-restricted diet. When you lose weight, your LDL should drop naturally; the fact that it didn’t on the coconut oil suggests an adverse effect.

The most encouraging study was this one, an open-label (meaning not blinded, no control group) pilot study in which two tablespoons of coconut oil a day for a month added to their regular diet did not worsen their cholesterol. Though when tested in a better designed study (you know, a randomized, crossover trial), coconut oil did significantly worsen bad cholesterol. Hence, Walt Willett’s recommendation from Harvard: if you’re going to use it, use it “sparingly.”

Now look, if you’re eating so healthy that your LDL cholesterol is under 60 or 70, then, you know, it may not be a problem. Unlike saturated animal fats, coconut oil doesn’t cause that spike in inflammation immediately after consumption of animal foods—which makes sense, because, as you’ll remember, it may be the dead bacterial endotoxins in animal products, ferried into the body by saturated fat, that are to blame.

In this study, for example, they compared the effects of chocolate cake made out of coconut oil, flax seed oil, or cod liver oil on, the effects on, inflammatory markers. Not much change in the inflammatory gene expression for the coconut or flax cakes, but cod liver oil cake may indeed be worse.

Think my water-in-Coke joke was too over the top? When a corporate exec was asked on the stand if Coca Cola was “nutritious,” he said that it is “providing water, and I think that is part of a balanced diet.”

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Good video and I agree that coconut oil like all oils should be used sparingly in the diet. I have read that while coconut oil may raise LDL it also raises HDL significantly. I have also read that Lauric acid may have many beneficial properties. Coconut oil also contains medium-chain triglycerides which may be readily used by the body for energy which is why many athletes favor it. As Dr. Greger points out, it is healthier than comparable animal derived saturated fats such as butter. Makes a great pie crust though I also try to use pie sparingly in my diet.

Toxins

Just because both HDL and LDL go up, does not mean coconut oil is heart protective.

Coconut oil manufacturers constantly point a finger to the medium chain saturated fatty acids being used for energy expenditure and therefore not being disposed of as fat in adipose tissue. Coconut oil
does indeed contain medium chain fatty acids and this may be metabolized differently but there are very few studies to make the conclusion that coconut oil is “ok” or that medium chain saturated fats are negligible. A tablespoon of coconut oil has about 12 grams of total saturated fat. about 8 grams of this is medium chain saturated fat and about 3.7 grams of this is long chain saturated fat. We have an abundance of evidence concluding that long chain saturated fats are harmful so we cannot consider this oil a healthy option based on that alone.

As far as minerals and vitamins go, there is not one significant vitamin or mineral in coconut oil. The only vitamin present in a tablespoon of coconut oil is .1 micrograms of vitamin k which does not even register as a percentage of daily value. Its also absent of any omega 3 fats. Just looking at coconut oils nutritional profile we see that it is clearly a junk food. Junk food is by definition empty calories.

Though I absolutely love coconut oil I think I will reduce consumption. I may have to leave it in my triple coconut cookies. Thank you for the input. Yes, another junk food when it is separated from the source.

Toxins

You can always apply it topically as a moisturizer.

Bert

Your facts are outdated. There are two different types of LDL. Type A which is large and buoyant and type B which is small and dense. Type B is caused by oxidized lipids and can become lodged in the endothelium whereas type A is not. PUFA’s are responsible for type B.

Toxins

Please share evidence that long chain saturated fats are negligible in terms of LDL cholesterol levels.

Toxins, most of the studies that you cite are from Government agencies that have adopted the low fat mantra being spewed from their corporate sponsors. VERY BIASED info that recommends statins for health. Ridiculous !

Wow…what a bunch of right wing crapola on those sites. Go out and buy some critical thinking skills Ori.

vegan minstrel

Insofar as oxidized lipids are a culprit in atherosclerosis, coconut oil lacks the antioxidant protection of vitamin E which comes with many other oils, so using it for daily cooking seems unwise. Coconut flakes in moderation appear alright, probably due to the fiber in that. Moderate amounts of Daiya vegan cheese (made with coconut oil, palm oil, etc.) might be alright for the same reason, inclusion of plant fiber.

sn321

Coconut oil has been used for so many years in India. It is one of the safest oils to use when deep frying. They use it in almost everything with NO SIDE EFFECTS.

Shaylen Snarski

palm oil is never a good idea. It’s been showed to raise LDL levels and has been shown to be carcinogenic when heated. Most importantly at all, it is one of the biggest epidemics on the planet and one of the absolute biggest causes for mass deforestation. The amount of 300 football fields of rainforest is destroyed PER HOUR for palm oil production (and this hasn’t been updated since palm oil production has and continues to significantly increase). Orangutans will be extinct within the next few years and sumatran tigers in less than that! Along with countless other endangered species, all for the production of palm oil. This same thing goes on for the so called “sustainable palm oil” as well… there is simply no such thing. That would be like trying to say there is sustainable fishing or sustainable animal agriculture or sustainable wildfires… which incidentally, wildfires and palm oil go hand in hand. Palm oil, including that which is labeled “sustainable” is also responsible for destroying peatlands (HORRIBLE for the environment) and stealing land from indigenous and native peoples. It’s also responsible for routine slaughterings and poisonings of surviving animals such as bludgeoning orangutan mothers and babies to death and poisoning elephants as all of these animals are considered “pests” to the palm oil industry… all of these animals who are being wiped off the face of the earth… by the palm oil industry. I think we know who the real pests are. So please boycott all palm oil for your own and everyone else’s sake.

I Kantye

And how do we do that when it’s just about in every “affordable” food we buy! And does Palm oil come from palm trees because I don’t understand the connection to forests being destroyed?

Cody

Hi, I am a volunteer for Dr. Greger, and I found your question interesting, and one that many other people may benefit from knowing more about. While heavily processed foods appear cheaper (and sometimes are), many of the cheapest foods in the world (grains like oats and rice and legumes like beans and lentils) are plant foods. In fact, in many parts of the world where poverty is prevalent, these people cannot afford many animal foods and rely heavily on plant-based sources for food. Check out this awesome video for Dr. Greger’s advice based on the nutritional literature: http://nutritionfacts.org/video/eating-healthy-on-a-budget/

Bert

Where is this abundance of evidence concluding that long chain saturated fats are harmful ? The people of India, Philippines and Thailand use coconut oil exclusively to eat and cook with and there was never any history of CVD until modern industrial seed oils were adopted. This is all more Vegan propaganda designed to scare people.

Joe

Bert – on the wider point of saturated fats – there is a ton of research from the last few decades pointing the finger. That is not to say it is right – I don’t trust the health agencies one iota – but the health agencies have made their recommendations based on those studies – its not simply vegan propaganda.

There are also so many other factors. Thai diets for example are rich in greens and fruit and whole foods. If the saturated fat from coconut was causing damage, its quite possible that other magical things in their diets were negating it.

Olive oil here in the med is another tricky thing to study, for that very reason. Anyway, one thing is for sure – those highly processed seed oils are bad news.

leepers

Bert, could it be that the people from the countries you mentioned might have a genetic expression that protects them from the (perceived?) damages of long chain saturated fats?

Shaylen Snarski

I highly doubt that… it would have to do with overall diet. Time and time again, people from other cultures have been seen to decline in health when moving to the western world and adopting a westernized diet. Anyways, anyone who begins angrily shouting something so ridiculous as “vegan propaganda!” needs to be taken with a massive grain of salt or two.

Eve Curtis

coconut oil is plant based and could be part of a vegan diet.

Lata Vasvani

It is true that some parts of India cook in coconut oil, but I am informed from good source that the tradition of using coconut oil was because that was common and available in their land, and since they toiled and worked in their land, they were healthy. Now those same people have a different lifestyle. They pay others to till their land and do not exercise as much. Hence they have developed many lifestyle ailments. They now use rice bran or other oils.

Shaylen Snarski

“Vegan propaganda”…. how exactly would a nonprofit group of people who live compassionately and justly have propaganda? Furthermore, most vegans use tons of coconut oil!! So coconut oil is actually MARKETED TO VEGANS.
The propaganda is from the multibillion dollar animal agriculture industries, not volunteer doctors and vegans. That simply makes no sense.

TheGardenAddict .

I eat coconut oil every day. My HDLs went up and my LDLs and triglycerides went down when I stopped eating the carbs and starting eating healthy fats. My total cholesterol was dangerously low at 118. I have finally gotten it to 156. I feel so much better eating fat. The fats that are bad are transfats, too much omega-6 relative to omega-3s, too many PUFAs. Correlations studies from the past are being proven wrong. Good fats do not cause heart disease. Inflammation causes heart disease. A plant-based diet can allow for quite a bit of fat. I eat my own grass-fed chicken eggs, coconut oil, nuts, seeds and butters, some meat, avocados, olive oil along with lots and lots of greens and some fruit, including raw. I have never felt better. I was a vegetarian for 20 years. I ate healthy food, not junk food as a vegetarian but not enough fat, too many carbs and too much tofu and grains. real food is the key. Not this crap being called food that most people eat. A study that utilizes subjects that eat corn-fed animals or any of the staples of the Western diet already has confounding variables.

Dan

So grains aren’t “real food”?
Also what kind of chickens do you have that thrive on grass as a staple?

SilverStar

Correct, grains as we eat them are not real food :-)
To a few grains from the land is not unhealthy but to eat daily a dish full of grain manipulated to bread of pasta or even cooked rice or any other grains is simply not meant to be eaten. It’s unnatural and for that very hard on our digestion-system to digest. Simple as that.

Shaylen Snarski

It’s the gluten found in most grains that is so harmful to our bodies and namely our digestive system. Rice is fine… you can get extremely healthy pastas, as well, made from lentil and quinoa flour. Quinoa isn’t actually a grain, it’s a seed and it has amazing health benefits including being a “perfect protein” in that it contains every essential amino acid.

sn321

100% Agree!!! Grass-fed. :-)

Shaylen Snarski

Even grass fed animals contain transfats. And the National Academy of Science concluded quite some time ago, that the only safe intake of transfats is zero… no transfats are healthy or safe for humans to consume. So really, there is not only no need for humans to consume animals, but there are a plethora of health concerns that come along with consuming animals. And why murder someone who wants to live when there is zero need for it, plus it harms us anyway? Not to mention that any type of animal agriculture is highly unsustainable and detrimental to the planet.
Of course anyone eating tons of plant foods is going to feel better than if they didn’t, but that doesn’t make the bad things they are eating (animal products) good by any means.
I do agree that we need fats. Fats are amazing for our overall health and our skin! But obviously healthy fats and lower intake of omega-6. So I’m not one of those vegans who are all about being oil free when olive oil has been shown to have tremendous health benefits and help you absorb nutrients from plant foods when eaten on salads and such.
Also, I’ve been reading that the lutien in raw tomatoes isn’t absorbed by our bodies unless eaten with some fat, so when eaten with olive oil, our bodies are shown to absorb the lutein from raw tomatoes.

Daniel Arnaud

I think you meant lycopene. And another point is that if you don’t eat meat, you need to supplement Vitamin B-12, which is not found in vegetable matter.

notalreadyused

Good for you. I would bet that all the processed crap cardboard food we buy is ruining our health. A good variety of real food is the key to good health…and not too much of any one thing. Considering how we evolved, I would be afraid to completely remove meat from my diet.

“The evidence of the fossil record is, by and large, clear: Since the inception of the earliest humans (i.e., the genus Homo, approximately 2.5 million years ago), the human diet has included meat. This is well-known in paleoanthropological circles, and is discussed in Setting the Scientific Record Straight on Humanity’s Evolutionary Prehistoric Diet and Ape Diets.

The current state of knowledge regarding the diet of our prehistoric ancestors is nicely summarized in Speth [1991, p. 265]:

[S]tone tools and fossil bones–the latter commonly displaying distinctive cut-marks produced when a carcass is dismembered and stripped of edible flesh with a sharp-edged stone flake–are found together on many Plio-Pleistocene archaeological sites, convincing proof that by at least 2.0 to 2.5 Ma [million years ago] before present (BP) these early hominids did in fact eat meat (Bunn 1986; Isaac and Crader 1981). In contrast, plant remains are absent or exceedingly rare on these ancient sites and their role in early hominid diet, therefore, can only be guessed on the basis of their known importance in contemporary forager diets, as well as their potential availability in Plio-Pleistocene environments (for example, see Peters et al. (1984); Sept (1984). Thus few today doubt that early hominids ate meat, and most would agree that they probably consumed far more meat than did their primate forebears. Instead, most studies nowadays focus primarily on how that meat was procured; that is, whether early hominids actively hunted animals, particularly large-bodied prey, or scavenged carcasses…”

I fully concur with the view that meat was a regular and important component of early hominid diet. For this, the archaeological and taphonomic evidence is compelling.

this is all stuff written in books…no proof, because people in science tell you this, right, you think it’s true…no ordinary person has ever found these, so called proofs…science is a religion / dogma…science says, so it must be true…selling the old evolution bull….you believe the books…I don’t…it’s all BS

Shaylen Snarski

Actually… humans are not designed to consume animals let alone be able to hunt them down and kill them. So no, the earliest humans did not hunt and consume animals… they simply weren’t able to. Until they advanced and developed weapons, this would have been impossible. They may however, have scavenged animals who were already dead, but they would have had to discover fire since our bodies cannot handle raw animal flesh and can barely handle it cooked. It is difficult to know exactly how the earliest humans ate contrary to the plethora of paleo blogs, but evidence does suggest that the earliest humans relied on whatever plants were available region to region and probably consumed insects.

Jen

Carbon and Nitrogen Isotope Analysis of ancient bones is NOT a myth. What you think early man ate isn’t relevant, what the experts KNOW is that early man got his protein primarily from large herbivorous animals.

Dr. Michael Richards from the Maxx Planck Institute for Evolutionary Archeology is an expert in ancient diets. He has published almost a 100 papers in peer-reviewed academia in the last decade.

experts and science are dogmas…this is where the world has gone wrong..listen to experts that tow the line…these people can’t publish papers without their peer reviewers accepting them…otherwise their grants and pensions go west…history is written mainly to glorify evil-ucion and big bang rubbish, something coming from nothing!! you have to do your own research and if you can’t don’t believe what you’ve been told is the truth…so called experts make me laugh, with their spurious dogmas

Jen

That is the most ridiculous, science-denying pile of nonsense I’ve ever seen in a science-promoting forum.

I’d be happy to hear all about the research you’ve directly done with ancient human bones and coprolites. Please share the tools and analysis methods you used so we can all learn for your ‘research’.

Shaylen Snarski

Yeah, it can be a good alternative on occasion, for things like pie crust, like you said, since it is more heat stable than other oils. There’s other heat stable oils, such as avocado, soy, corn, etc… but these are all horribly high in omega-6 and omega-6 to omega-3 ratios are detrimental to heart health. I feel like using the saturated fats from coconut oil on these “pie” occasions, if oil is needed, is ultimately a better choice than a fat with insane levels of omega-6’s but no saturated fats.

Rosalie Starr

Please take 6+ minutes and listen to Dr. Mary Newport on how coconut oil reversed her husband’s Alzheimer’s. Pretty amazing! :)
Since learning this, I’ve been taking a tablespoon or so a day in my oatmeal and have noticed much less of those “senior moments.” I’m otherwise healthy, and have been a vegetarian for 30+ years. :)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfux-5Z4COo

Jerry Kayne

What about coconut water? I drink Harmlest Harvest 100% raw coconut water after a workout (ice hockey) as a substitute for Gatorade.

Thea

Jerry: It’s my understanding that coconut water is completely different than what this video is talking about. It is so pure (when you get it pure – not the commercial stuff in the stores now-a-days) that it would technically be dripped right into your blood vessels. Dr. Greger has a video somewhere which mentions coconut water.

When people are discussing the potential health problems with coconut products, they are usually discussing products made with the meat of the coconut – oil, milk, cream, and flakes.

As for whether or not coconut water has any special health benefits, I don’t know. I’ve never heard that the water harms health in a signficant way. I’ve heard plenty of claims that it benefits health, but I don’t know if we have the science to back it up. You might want to check out Dr. Greger’s comment on this topic in his Ask the Doctor area:http://nutritionfacts.org/questions/the-benefits-of-coconut-water/

Coconut water is loaded with electrolytes… it is great for dehydration and for uses where doctors would prescribe Pedialyte, if you are seeking natural alternatives.

Shaylen Snarski

I’m worried about the sustainability of coconut water (and oil) so I need to learn more about that, as well as the cruelty free aspect as I’ve seen and read how sometimes enslaved, chained monkeys are involved in collecting the coconuts (that is their entire life), so I really need to learn more about that as well (I’m hoping fair-trade guarantees this is not the case). But yeah, just because the science isn’t in, doesn’t mean that benefits do not exist… they just haven’t studied it. I believe in trusting in nature (trusting in plants) because honestly, science has yet to discover every magnificent and intricate aspect of plant foods and probably never quite will. I don’t think we should be too dependent on scientific publications, but they are certainly helpful!

ken engle

and what about coconut milk? Maybe I should switch back to almond milk

Dr. Greger obviously doesn’t know that his idol Ancel Keys (the charlatan responsible for the current diabesity pandemic) in fact ate beef. I’ve never felt better and healthier since I found that the Lipid Hypothesis is a big made up lie (thanks to Gary Taubes) and started to eat grass-fed dairy products, pastured eggs, extra-virgin coconut oil, grass-fed meats, and eliminated wheat from my diet!

Maybe you would appreciate watching these 4part vids and why Ancel Keys is absolutely no charlatan. If you watch you the whole 71 videos long playlist you might also find out why Gary Taubes is, well… funny.

BradK

Why watch videos when as a biochemist I can read the literature and deduce that Keys was full of sh*t?

Carlos169

I bet you have not really researched it to any depth and if you have you are biased like Gary Taubes is. Ancel Keys was not full of sh*t.

Bert

The biggest bias comes from these vegan charlatans who perpetuate this low fat bunk.

Jaxson14

Bert…. where are you getting this ‘vegan charlatans’ bullshit? The low sat fat, high carb studies aren’t coming from vegan camps, they’re coming from FDA which is in bed with the meat and dairy industry as strongly as they are with soy…. I think this is your own personal thing. Maybe you feel guilty about eating meat?

mark gottlieb

Lord on high, you all are argumentative. Personally for me a whole-food-plant-based diet (vegan if you wish) seems to work well, but it has taken basic calorie restriction to lose serious weight. I’m trying to integrate some MCTs into my diet by using coconut oil in place of much of the small amounts of olive oil that were part of my diet, and maybe a bit more. We’ll see how that goes.
But quite frankly for some the Paleo approach may be more palatable, for others vegan. Then read and debate specific arguments and studies, don’t turn this into a sports blog!

Why should anybody eating meal feel guilty? Vegans are eating living organisms alive as well (in fact, a much higher number of organisms, not to mention deforestation and the prevalence of monocultures). I think it’s highly discriminatory to put one living organism above others! Who gave you such right? It’s been proven that plants feel pain, too, they have feelings as well. Not to mention the endless number of bacteria you eat as well. Or the number of microorganisms you exploit (most of them – GMOs) to produce vegan-friendly alternatives without you won’t be able to survive (D3, B12, etc.) Humans are not ruminants, but omnivores. Can we get over this scientific fact at last? Eating animal products is an evolutionary advantage and it’s best for our health. In both cases though, eating supermarket quality food is detrimental and that’s what all studies use.

Why should I feel guilty about anal raping your mom? Because it’s fucking wrong. Because it’s unnecessary and cruel and if you think there is any comparison between pulling a carrot out of the ground and boiling a pig alive, a creature more intelligent and as emotional than any dog, than you are either a liar or a fool or both. That’s why.

Furthermore it is not scientific fact that we are omnivores, nor is it best for our health. I haven’t eaten meat in close to 30 years and I bet there is not a single metric of health or fitness in which I wouldn’t excel past you.

… but you surely supplement with vitamin B-12, vitamin D, iron, calcium, etc. You won’t excel, don’t worry! I do WellnessFX.com and InsideTracker.com testing several times a year and all my labs are outstanding, not to mention everybody tells me I look 10-20 years younger for my age.

Annoyed by Paleofraud

All wrong. Plants and single cell organisms are not sentient. Plants have no mobility and rely on recruiting animals for propagation, e.g. making nutritious and tasty seeds and other parts to entice a ride. All animals feel and avoid pain and injury.
Taubes is a journalist not a scientist. The overwhelming scientific evidence supports the link between diet and heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity, kidney disease, infectious disease, dementia, arthritis, constipation, inlammatory bowel disease, lupus, ms, etc, just scroll through the topics on this site.
See also atkinsexposed.org.

Stop your living organism discrimination! Stop your hypocrisy! And get updated on latest scientific evidence that plants have feelings and a form of a nervous system! Plus, when did I mention Taubes or Atkins?

I feel great and my labs prove that high-fat animal product diet works miracles! Obesity and diabetes pandemic coincides with the shift from animal fats and traditional diets to plant ones, because those are cheaper, not healthier calories! Anyway, keep living like a ruminant, I personally don’t mind and judge, but I will keep eating what humans are best adapted to – an omnivore diet!

And if you care about animals more than about humans, you’re a sociopath! My family and I and my friends will keep eating what’s best for our health and well-being and if you have a problem with that – keep it to yourself! Your suicidal diet is not something we really care about!

Thea

Nikolay: We allow passionate arguments, but not name calling. It’s the name calling that got your post deleted.

Double standards, no? I didn’t call anybody names, but I was called things and you didn’t care, because it was aligned with your sponsors’ paid agenda!

Thea

Nikolay: Calling someone sociopath is a personal attack/name calling and not allowed on this site. So, no double standards here. As I said, passionate arguing is allowed. Name calling is not.
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Also, please note that it is not appropriate to spread untruths about this site. The only sponsors of this site are viewers like you and I. There is no “sponsors’ paid agenda”. The viewers of this site are only interested in finding the truth. I invite you to participate in that process if you are interested and can do so following the rules.

It was sarcasm, didn’t you get it? Also, I spread no untruths. I will find the post where Dr. Greger thanks the two main donors (maybe they no longer donate though). Also, if you brand your site “Nutrition Facts”, but only cover one side of nutrition, i.e. “veganism”, then you’re doing false advertising – all the evidence here is being cherry-picked to support veganism and any study that doesn’t support it is being ignored.

Nikolay: The Rasch Foundation helped NutritionFacts get started (ie, “launched”), but the last I heard, NutritionFacts has been solely paid for by regular viewers for years now–with no advertising or corporate sponsorship.
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Here are important things to note about the Rasch Foundation: “The Jesse & Julie Rasch Foundation was established in Toronto, Canada in the year 2000 by Jesse Rasch. Among the objectives of the Foundation is the funding of research into the role of health and nutrition in the prevention and treatment of disease and to ensure that the research results are appropriately disseminated to the medical profession. The Foundation is also striving to educate the public on the enormous role that health and nutrition play in disease prevention.”
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Doesn’t sound biased to me…

Watch what they do, not what they say, right? You also don’t state anywhere that you’re a veganism supporting site. Honestly, if you come out, you will be more successful and more successful, because now you look like and people talk to you about as a brainwashing site, which main goal is to spread deceit and save the unborn chicks from infertile eggs and starving calves due to their milk being stolen from the nasty omnivores.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been following you since day 1 and I like most of the stuff you cover and you’ve helped me in my search and I will now donate to you for that, but it’s not the whole truth, sorry!

Thea

If you learn about Dr. Greger’s history and read his book, you will see that there is no vegan/ethics agenda at all. Someone who talks about situations in which eating real bacon makes sense from a health perspective does not have a vegan agenda. Neither would Dr. Greger point out positive aspects of fermented dairy if he had a vegan agenda.
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As for the “sponsors” (the viewers) going by the vast majority of comments, the people on this site want to learn what the science says regarding nutrition and that’s it. If they have other interests as well, those other interests are mostly satisfied on other sites.
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re: “…I’ve been following you since day 1 and I like most of the stuff you cover and you’ve helped me…” That’s great! That’s why we are here and why thousands of people donate to NutritionFacts to make it free to people who can not afford it.
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re: “… and I will now donate to you…” We welcome your donation! While Dr. Greger donates all of his time to this site, not making a penny, (and he donates the money from book profits and speaking engagements, etc), computers and multiple staff are needed to keep the site going. That costs real money and it is all done with donations from viewers like you. From people who have been helped just like you.

Jen

Thea,

Even those of Dr. Greger’s peers that like his videos say that the data is cherry picked.

“Every video either spoke about the benefits of some plant component in the diet or the harm caused by some chemical in animal products. It turns out that Dr. Greger has swallowed the vegan philosophy hook, line and sinker.”

“He promotes veganism with religious fervour and has forged a career speaking on health issues”

“You will never see Dr. Greger refer to a study that shows anything positive about meat, but you will see plenty of studies that point out the pitfalls of consuming animal products.”

“The studies that Dr. Greger enthusiastically talks about are from respected journals and merit our attention. I think his videos are worth watching, but keep in mind that there is some cherry picking of data.”

Jen: They are wrong. I pointed out two examples in my post above. It’s not cherry picked at all. I know you can find all sorts of quotes about people who claim that Dr. Greger cherry picks. Sadly, the people do not seem to understand what the term means.

When I see such incorrect quotes like the one you wrote, it helps me to understand/place the quality and knowledge of the source. It should give people pause about going to that blog.

Jen

Thea,

If you scour the data and you only present half of what you find, that is the very definition of cherry-picking. I know exactly what the term means. It means that you present only part of the picture in order to skew perception in favor of the position you desire.

The McGill University Office for Science and Society is a well-respected scientific organization. To dismiss them outright simply because you’re a fan of doctor Greger is pretty anti-science.

Thea

Jen: If you think that a “well-respected scientific organization” is always right and always follows the science, then you are missing the point of this site. Dr. Greger does a great job of explaining how well-respected organizations are missing the actual science as part of the last 20 minutes of his latest summary video. That will explain why my response to you is valid if you are interested.

As for the definition of cherry picking, giving the words and understanding what they mean and how they apply in practice are two very different things. I’m not saying what you understand or not, but I am saying that those people you are quoting are either acting out of ignorance of the science, ignorance of Dr. Greger’s actual work, or do not understand what the term means.

Thea

I’ll add to my post: This is the definition of cherry picking that wikipedia has and that I was taught in school: “Cherry picking… is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm
a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related
cases or data that may contradict that position.”
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Since Dr. Greger ignores nothing, carefully reviewing *all* the science and even spending several videos pointing out to us the flaws in certain types of studies, he is by definition, not cherry picking. It is not required that Dr. Greger go over every study in his presentation of results to us as the general public. What is required is that Dr. Greger consider all the studies in his analysis of the science and weed out those studies which are invalid or for the purposes of this site, do not fit the body of evidence. If someone wants the FOX style of “fair and balanced” news reporting, where false equivalencies rule the day, this site is not for that person. If you honestly believe that Dr. Greger is cherry picking, then this site is not for you.

Dr. Greger ignores a lot of evidence, Thea! Specifically recent scientific evidence about PUFAs, MUFAs, and STAs just for starters! In general, the whole shift to plant calories was due to a scientific fraud committed by Ancel Keys and a totally political move to provider cheaper calories!

Thea

Nikolay: I can totally sympathize with you and understand why you think the way you do. There are *so many* sites out there that claim that Ancel Keys committed fraud. It is easy to see why people believe that is true. But actually, Ancel Keys did some really great, well-balanced science. And he wasn’t even the start of “the whole shift”. So, you have been lied to about that too. If you want a great, detailed discussion about how people have lied about Ancel Key’s work, I would refer you to the site “Plant Positive”, which has a scholarly work on the whole topic. You can even search for ‘Ancel Keys’ to learn specifically about the real history of Key’s work. http://www.plantpositive.com Just like Dr. Greger, the site Plant Positive refers back to actual studies and historical document. So, you can confirm everything he says.
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FYI: Dr. Greger does not ignore any evidence. He rejects some faulty studies, but he doesn’t ignore them. He looks at them all.

Jen

Thea,

Rejecting HALF the science is worse.

If Dr. Greger presented all of the data and explained why he disagrees, that would be different. But he doesn’t, he simply doesn’t acknowledge that any data supporting meat-eating exists.

Dr. Greger’s presentations are cherry-picked by every definition of the term and your refusal to acknowledge it smacks of religion and not science.

Thea

Jen: There are plenty (for me at least) of videos on this site presenting the pro-meat/dairy/egg data and explaining how those studies are flawed. Those are representative studies/videos. I’m not the least bit interested in Dr. Greger going over every study. That would be tedious. The point is that Dr. Greger does not ignore those studies. Dr. Greger takes them into account and spends some time explaining why the bad data is bad data. That’s what science really is all about. It’s not cherry picking. It’s called critical thinking and then presenting the answers to the lay audience that we are.
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As I said, if you are the kind of person who wants an analysis of every study presented to you and equal weight/value given to every study, then this is not the place for you.

Jen

Thea,

It isn’t just unlikely, it is a statistical -impossibility- that all of the data would support PB diets. This is how we can tell that Dr. Greger is withholding part of the data.

It is -this- what should give people pause about coming here. They are wrong because his mod says so? Perhaps you don’t want us to consider your bias when we decide whether your words have merit.

I highly recommend Ben Goldacre’s TED talk on battling bad science. Pay specific attention to where he discusses funnel plots around the 9:30 timestamp. Then ask yourself, where is the missing data.

Jen: I never said “all of the data”. What I said was “the body of evidence”. That’s a very important distinction. When people come here, we want to know what the body of evidence tells us. Of course, life is too complicated and all studies have enough flaws that you will be able to find studies which support just about anything. So of course, you will be able to find studies which support pro-animal consumption. The question is, are those valid studies and if so, are those studies representative of the body of evidence?
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I believe I have shared the smoking analogy with you already. There are over 100 studies showing that smoking is either neutral or beneficial for health. But if I went to a site to learn about the health impacts of smoking, I would consider it perfectly valid (and thank you very much!) — ie, not cherry picking — if the site didn’t spend a ton of time going over those studies. That’s because when I go to a site about the health impacts of smoking, I want to know what the body of evidence tells me. As long as the site is considering all the evidence, presenting the largely anti-smoking science is perfectly valid.
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Before you start telling me about how pro-animal studies are half (I would argue the half, but let’s go with that for now) the studies out there: I would then have to refer you back to the point about not all studies being equal and that it is perfectly valid to throw out studies with fatal flaws such as the ones that Dr. Greger has explained on this site. So, Dr. Greger is presenting us with information about the body of evidence.
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Again, ask yourself, is this the site for me to spend time if I don’t feel that I am getting all the information? For the rest of us, we feel that we are getting some pretty darn good (and complete enough) information. No one is perfect. No one gets everything right and Dr. Greger is no different. But in general, the information here is high quality and as representative of the actual nutritional science as you will be able to find anywhere.
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The claim of cherry picking is just factually incorrect. It’s factually incorrect because Dr. Greger has said many times that he is presenting snippets (there’s only so much that can be covered in this format) of the body of evidence – not that he is presenting every valid study. And it is factually incorrect because Dr. Greger does examine all the evidence. He doesn’t look for only those studies which meet some preconceived outcome. We know this from multiple sources, including the videos on this site. And Dr. Greger tells us about pro-animal studies when he thinks they are valid and relevant. It is also factually incorrect for someone to claim that Dr. Greger has bought the “vegan philosophy.” If the videos do not make that self-evident, the book How Not To Die does. That blog you quoted from is very sad and very incorrect.

Thea

For anyone else watching this conversation, I need to add: It is perfectly legitimate for someone else to look at the science with as much honesty as they can and come to different conclusions than Dr. Greger has. Other doctors who study science have done so on various sub-topics (like how much table salt we need–if any). I don’t have a problem with disagreement if the people are not letting their biases get in the way of analyzing the data. What I’m objecting to is the false claim of cherry picking.

Jen

If you watched Ben Goldacres TED talk then you know that it’s -not- a matter of poor data being left out, it’s quality data being left out. I don’t need an analysis at all, I read the data directly. The entire tone of NitritionFacts is one that suggests there is no quality data supporting animal products even though there is a significant amount that does.

The sky is blue, water is wet and Dr. Greger cherry picks his sources.

The end.

Thea

Jen: I explained why that is not true. But since you feel so strongly in disagreement, I recommend you visit a different site to get the data that you think more accurately represents reality. This is clearly not the site for you.

Jen

As I said, I don’t visit this site for data. I do appreciate the advice though. Unless and until it becomes against the rules to say so politely, I will continue to comment similarly. It’s my understanding that Dr. Greger welcomes the challenge. ^.^

HemoDynamic, MD

You are clearly misinformed. I have learned all the statistics and have reviewed all the science and even the National Institutes of Health has come to the conclusion that plant based eating is the healthiest lifestyle to take upon oneself to minimize most effectively anyone’s risk of disease. In fact that was their current recommendation to the very politically biased USDA for the recent dietary recommendations. Also Medicare, the largest insurer of the US allows for the The Ornish Spectrum lifestyle and the Pritikin Lifestyle to reverse our number one killer cardiovascular disease. They don’t pay physicians for a Paleo, Atkins, Gluten free or any other hogwash diet to reverse chronic disease. Why? because no other lifestyle will prevent, stop and reverse chronic disease.
Interestingly this is the only lifestyle I have ever seen in my ten years of practice reverse cardiovascular disease, which diabetes is a subgroup, or any other chronic disease consistently. I’d write more but in the Caribbean eating a bunch of fruit and vegetables and soaking up some vitamin D.

Jen

Hemo,

First, “plant-based” doesn’t mean vegan.

Second, no diet alone has EVER been shown to reverse disease which is why the programs you reference both use “lifestyle” in their names and include many non-diet factors.

Third, There are plenty of medical practitioners who’ve seen diets with animal products improve cardiovascular and metabolic health and most have been in practice longer than you.

Forth, even people who eat animal products eat fruits and veggies and spend time in the sun.

Fifth, I’d write more but I’ve covered it all.

Vegans have the same mortality rates as omnis. The end.

Mike Quinoa

A little problem…most North Americans don’t actually eat, or can’t afford, the diet you consume. There’s not enough pasture land available for everyone to eat grass-fed, unless everyone cuts back significantly on meat as well.

Well, sadly, I have to agree, but let’s not mix science and political correctness. All studies are done with adulterated foods! Unfortunately, those are the foods most people eat, but at least, as scientists, dare to note “commercially-processed coconut oil” so that it is loud and clear.

Extra-virgin coconut oil is a “commercially-processed coconut oil”. With reports about a good percentage of extra virgin olive oil being less than virginal, and considering olive oil definitions are legally regulated, whereas coconut oil is not, I’d have trust issues with anything that comes from a jar these days.

There are millions of acres of grassland that are not used and cannot be used for crop cultivation. Pastured ruminant animals reverse desertification by fixing CO2 back into the grass. Just another vegan biased lie of yours and Dr. Gregor’s.

handsomevegetarian

Bull.

The grasslands of north america are unrecognizable specifically because of large scale animal grazing, and doing so prevents other wild ruminants from getting their dietary needs.

This logic is right up there with shooting wolves to prevent them attacking livestock herds, because the natural balance has been disturbed so much and human population has intruded on their territory so much that they basically have no choice.

They’re not malicious, they’re just animals. We’re the ones that can make a conscious choice to change our behaviour.

handsomevegetarian

also the main emotion I read from most of the people posting on this site is a paralyzing fear of DEATH.

everyone try to breathe, fear is great at obstruction clear rational thinking.

Shaylen Snarski

Not to mention wild horses being routinely massacred by helicopter shootings due to said animal agriculture.

Shaylen Snarski

Wow Bert, you have no business spreading your insane lies. I’m calling this one as I see it, clearly you are a member of the animal agriculture industry here to maintain that multibillion dollar corporation that in itself, is the epitome of propaganda. Sorry, science (and morality) is just not on your side guy… Try moving on.

Shaylen Snarski

Humans aren’t designed to eat meat. Trans fats are dangerous at any level for one of many examples, which is found solely in animal fats (and thanks to the dark side of science, they’ve been able to emulate these fats by hydrogenating vegetable oils). You made a great point though, currently wild horses and wolves are routinely massacred by helicopter to keep land available for raising grass fed holocaust victims… er… “cattle.”

Toxins

You are consuming quite the unhealthful duet for a variety of reasons. There are inherent compounds in these foods that you cannot separate simply by eating organic. Lets look at each.

Firstly, lets look at dairy.

These first few will discuss specifically calcium from cows milk and slowly evolve to showing the harms that arise from dairy consumption

A review published in the Journal of Pediatrics focused on the benefits of dairy “the findings of epidemiologic and prospective studies have raised questions about the efficacy of the use of dairy products for the promotion of bone health.” after a review of the existing literature and finding “A positive relationship between dairy product consumption and measures of bone health in children or young adults was reported in 1 of 4 cross-sectional studies; in 0 of 3 retrospective studies; in 0 of 1 prospective study; and in 2 of 3 randomized, controlled trials. Only 1 of these randomized clinical trials adequately controlled for vitamin D intake, and it showed no significant effect of dairy products on BMD [bone mineral density]” , they concluded, “Scant evidence supports nutrition guidelines focused specifically on increasing milk or other dairy product intake for promoting child and adolescent bone mineralization.”

A meta-analysis published in the British Medical Journal found, “The small effect of calcium supplementation on bone mineral density in the upper limb is unlikely to reduce the risk of fracture, either in childhood or later life, to a degree of major public health importance.”and “The authors concluded that the literature did not support recommendations for consumption of dairy products for bone health end points in children and young adults…Our quantitative systematic review confirms this conclusion” The authors also state, “Our results also do not support the premise that any type of calcium supplementation is more effective than another.” Even studies that used intakes of 1400 mg per day of calcium showed no benefit.

An editorial accompanying this meta-analysis pointed out,
“Populations that consume the most cow’s milk and other dairy products have among the highest rates of osteoporosis and hip fracture in later life. Given this fact, it is important to ask whether sufficient evidence exists to continue assuming that consumption of these foods is part of the solution.” They concluded “It is time to revise our calcium recommendations for young people and change our assumptions about the role of calcium, milk, and other dairy products in the bone health of children and adolescents. While the policy experts work on revising recommendations, doctors and other health professionals should encourage children to spend time in active play or sports, and to consume a nutritious diet built from whole foods from plant sources to achieve and maintain a healthy weight and provide an environment conducive to
building strong bones.”

A review published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition of the research on the effects of dairy products on bone health found 57 studies, and of these, 21 studies were considered to have stronger-evidence, worthy of inclusion in this review. “Of 21 stronger-evidence studies, 57% were not significant, 29% were favorable, and 14% were unfavorable.” Keep in mind that the majority of these studies were funded by the dairy industry, and even with this natural bias and influence to produce positive outcomes, no better than 29% of the studies were favorable to bone health. One of the studies that showed unfavorable results that was funded by the dairy industry showed some shocking outcomes. The findings showed post menopause subjects who received the extra milk (three 8 ounce glasses of skimmed milk daily) for a year lost more bone than those who didn’t drink the extra milk. The authors wrote, “The protein content of the milk supplement may have a negative effect on calcium balance, possibly through an increase in kidney losses of calcium or through a direct effect on bone resorption…this may have been due to the average 30 percent increase in protein intake during milk supplementation.” Skim milk is very high in protein so this is unavoidable unless one is to consume the very fatty whole milk in which 2-5% of the fat content is trans fat and is very high in saturated fat.

Its evidence such as this that I am unconvinced calcium should be from cows milk. Long term studies on vegan bone density comparing the omnivores diet showed the same bone density “…although vegans have much lower intakes of dietary calcium and protein than omnivores, veganism does not have an adverse effect on bone mineral density and does not alter body composition.” The vegan participants had been on a vegan diet an average of 33 years.

I find it interesting that modern society believes that the human species is dependent on the milk of another animal species. The primary biologic purpose of cow’s milk is to grow a 60 pound calf to a 600 pound cow in less than 8 months. This is no way natural to humans as cow’s milk has high concentrations of protein, potassium, sodium, calcium, and other nutrients to sustain rapid growth. In comparison, these nutrients are at a three to four times lower concentration in human milk than cow’s milk. Milk is used to promote growth, so how is this natural as human adults to be consuming milk, let alone another species of animals milk? Dairy is a heavy promoter of insulin like growth factor in adults. This spike in IGF-1 is the most likely source of positive bone growth in the studies showing favorable outcomes of dairy on bones, not necessarily the calcium. Elevated IGF-1 does more harm than good in adults, it heavily promotes tumor growth in breast, prostate, lung, and colon cells and accelerates the aging process.

The consumption of dairy in children has resulted in earlier puberty. “The effect of animal protein intake, which was associated with an earlier puberty onset, might mainly be due to dairy. “An earlier puberty onset has been related to an increased risk for hormone-related cancers in adulthood. For example, a meta-analysis of 26 epidemiological studies reported a 9% risk reduction for breast cancer with every additional year at menarche. Additionally, recent study results demonstrated that a 1-y delay in menarche was associated with a 2.4 to 4.5% lower total mortality.

The concern with dairy and hormone dependent cancer is something to think about as well. It has been shown that consuming dairy significantly increases circulating steroid hormones in woman and that vegetarians have far less of this hormone. “In conclusion, greater consumption of red meat and dairy products might influence circulating concentrations of SHBG and estradiol, respectively. Given the well-established role of steroid hormones in breast cancer etiology for postmenopausal women, these findings may have important health implications” Tumor growth from these hormone imbalances is also evident “A dramatic increase in estrogen-dependent malignant diseases, such as ovarian, corpus uteri, breast, testicular and prostate cancers has been recognized. Ganmaa et al. investigated the incidence and mortality of
testicular and prostate cancers in relation to dietary practices. Among various food items, cow’s milk and cheese had the highest correlation with incidence and mortality rate of these cancers” Children are at high risk “Among the exposure of humans, especially prepubertal children, to exogenous estrogens, we are particularly concerned with” These xenoestrogens from lactating preganant cattle (the majority of commercial cattle used for milk) significantly raised estrogen levels in male adults and reduced testosterone levels and did
even more so in children. This is significant since these estrogens have mutagenic affects “Toxicological and epidemiological studies have indicated that E2 could be categorized as a carcinogen. Milk is considered to be a rich source of estrogens. Indeed, E2 concentration is higher in mammary drainage than in the peripheral circulation in high yielding cows.”

Lets look at eggs now, keep in mind, these are inherent compounds that cannot be separated simply by eating organic.

Eggs are considered good sources of lutein and omega 3 and an excellent source of protein. For these reasons, they are considered health foods. I am going to present the real science behind eggs showing that this is false. Firstly, chickens only have lutein due to the fact that they have a varietized feed, these nutrients are not inherent of eggs. A spoonful of spinach has as much lutein as 9 eggs. We cannot really consider eggs an appropriate source of this nutrient. As for protein, all whole foods are complete sources of protein so this statement to its benefits is insignificant. Energy needs satisfy energy expenditures which is equivalent to protein needs. As long as you eat whole plant foods when your hungry till your full, then your getting enough protein.

Regarding Omega 3, current levels of omega 3 in eggs are highly inadequate and one must consume around 30 eggs to reach an acceptable level of omega 3 for the day. A male needs around 1.6 grams of omega 3 per day, a female needs around 1.1 grams a day. Omega 3 processes to EPA which is also processed to DHA, which is highly anti inflammatory. Omega 6 processes down to arachadonic acid which is highly inflammatory. The fact that eggs are the top source of arachadonic acid nulls and voids benefits received from the omega 3 in the egg itself. High intake of arachadonic acid is linked to autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis, as well as a clear link with cancer development.

In fact, David Spence, director of stroke prevention/atherosclerosis research center and one of the worlds leading stroke experts, said that based on the latest research, you can eat all the eggs you want IF your dying of a terminal illness. Eggs are not considered health promoting nutritionally speaking.

Furthermore, in the Canadian Journal of Cardiology, David Spence, David Jenkins (the inventor of the glycemic index) and Jean Davignon (director of atherosclerosis research group) posted a review on eggs claiming that the egg industry has been downplaying the health risks of eggs through misleading advertisements. As soon as you eat one egg, you expose your body to several hours worth of oxidative stress, inflammation of ones arteries, endothelieum impairment (what keeps you blood running smoothly) and increases the susceptibility of LDL cholesterol to oxidize (beginning stages of heart disease).

The egg industry has claimed that cholesterol from eggs is not important and does not raise cholesterol levels. The fundamental flaw in the study the egg industry has used to make this claim is that they measured FASTING lipid levels at night and not levels through out the day after egg consumption. “Diet is not all about fasting lipids; it is mainly about the three-quarters of the day that we are in the nonfasting state. Fasting lipids can be thought of as a baseline; they show what the endothelium was exposed to for the last few hours of the night.”

A single egg yolk contains approximately 215 to 275 mg of cholesterol. A safe upper limit can be capped at 200 mg if one is looking to prevent heart disease. One egg far exceeds this daily upper limit.

Regarding coconut oil

Looking at specifics, coconut oil has only 3 studies that supposedly support its use, but when the studies are examined in detail, we see that the evidence for its use is actually quite weak. Here is a summary on the 3 studies.

Only 1 study on weight loss:

Forty obese women cut their food intake by 200 calories a day and exercised four days a week. Half of them used two tablespoons of coconut oil (about 240 calories’ worth) every day in their cooking and the other half used soybean oil.

After three months, both groups had lost the same amount of weight, about two pounds. To me this is not at all significant, and it could very well be attributed to the loss of calories as well as the exercise, not the oil.

Only 1 poorly concluded study with very mixed results on Alzheimers:

Placebo and coconut fat takers scored no different on a cognitive impairment test when the subjects were randomized. If they weren’t randomized (which could represent stacking up the placebo group with very sick patients) then the coconut fat consumers scored slightly better after 45 days. After 90 days though everyone pretty much evened out. This is not something I would use as evidence either, yet it is.

In the only study done in people in the last 17 years, Malaysian
researchers last year found that when they fed young men and women 20 percent of their calories from coconut oil for five weeks, LDL cholesterol was 8 percent higher and HDL cholesterol was 7 percent higher than when the participants were fed 20 percent of their calories from olive oil.

Just because Both bad cholesterol and good cholesterol went up does not mean that coconut oil is protective against heart disease and it does not at all mean its healthy. This doesn’t make good sense.

The above 3 studies are the only studies to date that support coconut oil use, and as you can see, they are quite insufficient.

In addition, coconut oil manufacturers constantly point a finger to the medium chain saturated fatty acids being used for energy expenditure and therefore not being disposed of as fat in adipose tissue. Coconut oil does indeed contain medium chain fatty acids and this may be metabolized differently but there are very few studies to make the conclusion that coconut oil is “ok” or that medium chain saturated fats are negligible. A tablespoon of coconut oil has about 12 grams of total saturated fat. about 8 grams of this is medium chain saturated fat and about 3.7 grams
of this is long chain saturated fat. We have an abundance of evidence concluding that long chain saturated fats are harmful so we cannot consider this oil a healthy option based on that alone. Coconut oil is also absent of omega 3 so we would be consuming a product that is 91% saturated fat

In addition to all this, there are endotoxins, elevated IGF-1, and other compounds that will help to cause chronic illnesses and are all inherent of animal products. Your diet is not a healthy one.

Thanks for the wealth of resources, I will read later and respond when I get home, but I want to ask how many of those studies were made using unadulterated dairy, meats, and coconut oil? Because, for example, ultra-pasteurized and homogenized milk from inhumanely raised in dirt and misery, grain-fed animals, injected or fed with antibiotics and hormones, is not what I or any sane person would recommend. Just like vegans/vegetarians carefully select the foods they eat, conscious omnivores do the same. Regarding my diet being healthy or not, my lab results can speak for themselves. Just by replacing organic whole-grain bread and oatmeal in my diet with eggs, meat, cheese, and brisling sardines, I lost 15 lbs after I actually have increased my caloric intake as I now eat tons of raw almonds and avocados to alkalize, too.

Toxins

Like i mentioned, none of that matters, as homogenized milk, raw milk, and organic homogenized milk all contain xenoestrogens, same with the other foods mentioned, conventional vs organic makes no difference, these are inherent compounds.

Regarding your meat centric diet, you very well could be consuming less calories. More calories does not equal weight loss, and less calories does not equal weight gain. This is physics. Regardless of your weight loss, you are now exposing your body to much more than you are bargaining for. Lets look at the paleo diet (which is basically a fancy atkins diet).

The paleolithic diet severely restricts simple and complex
carbohydrates and advocates high meat and vegetable consumption. The vegetable part is good, but the high meat and rejection of carbohydrates is based on pseudoscience. This is another Atkins diet essentially.

If you are following the diet strictly, you should be in a state of ketosis. What this means is that your body does not run on insulin but uses fat as fuel. The state of ketosis is commonly seen with people in starvation or with severe illness. When one is consuming carbohydrates, fat can be broken down as well but it is not the same as ketosis, as fat is now burned as the primary fuel source and is burned inefficiently. The byproduct of this inefficient process are toxic substances known as ketones, hence the name ketosis. Your body does its best to rid itself of these ketones through the lungs (why strict paleolithic dieters have rotten apple breath) and through urine.

Why does this matter? Well this can be attributed to your weight loss as not only does the state of ketosis inhibit hunger pangs (essentially making you eat less calories
which is why people end up losing weight on this diet) but it also causes you to lose water weight. To wash these toxic waste products out of our system our body uses a lot of water. The diuretic effect of low carb diets can result in people losing a gallon of water in pounds the first week. The body also resorts to using its glycogen stores of glucose. Glycogen, stored in the liver and muscles, can meet the average person’s glucose needs for about 12 to 18 hours. With each gram of glycogen is stored 2.7 grams of water. The average body stores 300 grams of glycogen. Depletion of the body’s glycogen would result in an almost overnight weight loss of 3 pounds. This precipitous early weight loss encourages dieters to continue the diet even though they have lost mostly water weight.

What else does ketosis entail?

The symptoms of ketosis include general tiredness, abrupt or gradually increasing weakness, dizziness, headaches, confusion, abdominal pain, irritability, nausea and vomiting, sleep problems and bad breath. Ketosis impairs cognitive ability. As reported in the International Journal of Obesity article “Cognitive Effects of Ketogenic Weight-Reducing Diets,” researchers randomized people to either a ketogenic or a nonketogenic weight loss diet. Although both groups lost the same amount of weight, those on the ketogenic diet suffered a significant drop in cognitive performance.After one week in ketosis, higher order mental processing and mental flexibility significantly worsened into what the researcher called a “modest neuropsychological impairment.”

These are all short term side affects. What about long term side effects? High meat diets heavily promote the insulin like growth factor hormone. This hormone accelerates aging and heavily promotes tumor growth. Well considering that paleolithic societies don’t live
very long (most don’t make it past 60 and the ones that do, like the Inuit, live on average 10 years less then the average Canadian (about the age of 65) this diet is already flawed.

Cancer is a disease primarily caused by diet. What’s the number one recommendation of the American Institute for Cancer Research? Plant based diets. The number one recommendation of the World Cancer Research Fund? Plant-based diets. The number one recommendation of the National Cancer Institute, the World Health Organization and the Food and Agriculture Organization
of the United Nations? More fruits and vegetables. The number one recommendation of the American Cancer Society? More plants, less meat. In fact the American Cancer Society has officially condemned diets high in animal products. Cancer is preventable and in some cases reversible on a whole foods plant based diet.

So high protein low carb diets heavily promote Cancer, what else? Since protein is not stored in your body but is excreted out through urine, kidney scarring is a very realistic threat to one on this diet. Kidney scarring results in heavily decreased kidney function eventually leading to kidney failure. Kidney failure is irreversible and the only way to manage it is through kidney dialysis or kidney transplantation.

The American Academy of Family Physicians notes that high animal protein intake is also largely responsible for the high prevalence of kidney stones in the United States. Plant protein does not seem to have a harmful effect.

The concern with bone health arises from the fact that muscle protein has a high sulphur content. When people eat too much of this meat protein, sulfuric acid forms within our bodies which must somehow be neutralized to maintain proper internal pH balance. One way our bodies can buffer the sulphuric acid load caused by meat is with calcium borrowed from our bones. This is actually why dairy tends to be harmful for the bones. Cheese has a very high sulfuric load. People on high meat diets can lose so much calcium in the urine which solidifies to form kidney stones. Over time, high animal protein intakes may leach enough calcium from the bones to increase one’s risk of osteoporosis. People may be peeing their bones into the toilet along with the ketones.

Researchers from the university of Texas and Chicago published a study concluding that “Consumption of an LCHP [low carb high protein] diet for 6 weeks delivers a marked acid load to the kidney, increases the risk for stone formation, decreases estimated calcium balance, and may increase the risk for bone loss.” After just two weeks on this type of diet, the subjects were already losing 258 mg of calcium in their urine every day.

What about heart disease? Since the paleolithic diet includes A LOT of saturated fat and dietary cholesterol, the risk for heart disease has increased by a lot. No matter what you may here from a paleolithic diet book or what some crock “doctor” like taubes has claimed, years and years of research has directly linked dietary cholesterol
and saturated fat with heart disease. Even independent of the effects on obesity, meat consumption itself has been related to an increased risk of coronary heart disease.

The fat from animal foods damages our endothelial cells, lining our blood vessels. These cells are responsible for clearing up plaque and dilating our vessels. A high animal protein meal will inhibit proper endothelial function for 6 hours until they heal and regenerate. Over time, excessive damage does not allow our cells to heal back until we change our diet to a purely plant based diet. This is why heart disease is so prevalent in America, its the high fat intake from animal products. Most people hospitalized with heart attacks have cholesterol levels considered “desirable” under the current recommendations. Having a “normal” cholesterol in a society where it’s normal to die of heart disease is not necessarily a good thing. The average cholesterol of the patients who were hospitalized for heart issues in this study were at 170. This is considered “desirable” to your doctor. The logic is not to assume cholesterol is negligible, but that the “desirable” levels for cholesterol are too high.

It has already been proven that a purely plant based diet can reverse heart disease and that animal products promote the progression of atherosclerosis. So why continue to eat the wrong way and promote one of America’s top killers?

Keep in mind, everything discussed here has to do with inherent compounds found in meat, and none of thee compounds change when one switches from conventional to grass fed.

Awesome information, Toxins! (When do you sleep?) I’m looking forward to delving into the many references you cite. I’ll remember your “response” so that I may direct potential “Paleos” to it so they can make a more informed decision based on science instead of Internet antidotes.

Toxins is AMAZING, I wish I had half the talent/eloquence/smarts that s/he does. I, too, will commit this response to memory as the Paleo/Primal (re-formulated Atkins diet) viewpoint comes up ALL the time these days. I predict that it is a trend that will eventually fizzle out, once the health outcomes start to wreak havoc on people’s long term health.

As Dr. Ornish has stated in his book _The Spectrum_ “… a convergence of scientific evidence can help us resolve conflicting claims and distinguish what just sounds good from what’s proven to be true.” (p.4). Dr. Greger has stated the same viewpoint many times on this site.

There is A LOT of bad science out there, and sadly most people are not skilled at how to critically read and understand scientific papers.Jeff Novick does a great job of addressing this in his newsletter Todays Breaking Health News!!. I highly recommend it.

I love you Toxins!!! I’ve been studying diets of all kinds for almost 10 years and this one the best and most concise scientific reasons to adopt and in my case stick with a plant-base diet!! Simply Amazing! I’m copying and pasting this into the dicussion section of:http://www.meetup.com/Plant-Strong/

Bert

RUBBISH !

Bert

Serum Cholesterol levels have nothing to do with CVD. Even the Statin drug makers have conceded this fact. They now say the key factors for CVD are inflammation, C-reactive protein and triglycerides. Your info is out of date and merely reflects your biased vegan opinions. It has never been proven that a whole plant based diet will prevent CVD. Take one example; Davy Jones of the Monkees, RIP, was a vegetarian for decades and even jogged for exercise, died of a heart attack. Sam Simon was vegan since his teens and yet he developed cancer just the same. I know of at least 3 vegetarian women who got breast cancer too.

Toxins

From the editor in chief of the American Journal of Cardiology.

“As shown in Figure 1, most of the risk factors do not in themselves cause atherosclerosis [heart disease]…The atherosclerotic risk factors showing that the only factor required to cause atherosclerosis is cholesterol.”http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603726/

The information is not out of date, you are the one on the fringe who believes pseuodo science twisted by internet bloggers who think they are researchers. I am not interested in your anecdotes about vegans or vegetarians getting cancer, and I encourage you to have an open mind and explore this site as the issues you have difficulty with such as cholesterol and diet are explained in many videos through out this site with countless studies to back them up. This discussion regarding cholesterol particularly is silly once you have the background knowledge regarding cholesterol, its implications in heart disease, and the dietary influences. “Plant positive” has spent a lot of time gathering the data on what is already known and I encourage you to visit his site as well as explore more here. The video tagged below is a good starting point and cleans up the mess between what you might see in blogs vs the non-misconstrued data.http://www.plantpositive.com/18-cholesterol-confusion-1-pri/

Bert

The link you provided is from a government website in which Dr. Dean Ornish is a part of. This info from this website is biased. Is this all you have ? Not much other than more BUNK !

Bert

NCBI was started by the government and uses government data bases. The same people who encourage you to go on a low fat diet. The government agencies like the CDC are in lock step with whoever gives them the most money. Big Pharma is who is giving them the money for these studies and they are all biased in the low fat mantra.

Bert

Before the 1920’s CVD was relatively unknown. People died of other illnesses other than CVD. The amount of saturated fat in our diet in the form of meat, eggs and dairy has decreased and yet CVD and cancer have increased since then. See any correlation yet ? Why is this Mr. Toxin ?

Bert

I do have a very open mind. In fact, I was a vegetarian for 27 years, eating a mostly macrobiotic diet. So I have truly been there and done that. Since I changed my diet my health issues have almost completely gone away. I will never go back.

Paleo Huntress

Toxins is a “true believer”, Bert. He’s been a vegetarian for a little over 3 years, and it is his savior and his salvation. He really isn’t interested in evidence.

If cholesterol was the cause of arteriosclerotic plaques, we could cause this in vegetarian lab animals by feeding them cholesterol. But we can’t. Rabbits are the animals most commonly used in cholesterol experiments. When they are forced to eat cholesterol, their serum cholesterol rises 10 to 20 times higher than the highest ever seen in humans. And then even though cholesterol is deposited in the arteries, the deposits don’t resemble the lesions of human atherosclerosis.

The cholesterol correlation is garbage. More cholesterol is found when the body is inflamed because it is the body’s anti-inflammatory. Without inflammation, cholesterol is harmless.

Or, you could go to the actual experts, those who’ve been doing the actual research and working with low carb and ketogenic diets for decades, Prof. Tim Noakes and Dr. Spencer Nadolsky. “Plant Positive” is not an expert or even a researcher. For that matter, Dr. Greger has never done any nutrition research either.

Rami Najjar

None of those people are “experts”, the real experts as in those that are part of organizations that make honest health recommendations for the country, agree that low carbohydrate diets are damaging to health. Dr. Greger and plant positive have gathered the already available evidence to make this point. You don’t have to conduct a study to be versed in the literature. Branching outside of this coconut oil video would also be beneficial, as Dr. Greger has some very thorough and compelling videos with many relevant studies regarding this topic.http://nutritionfacts.org/?s=low+carb

Veganrunner

So Tim Noakes. Really interesting story. He has this running book I have loved though the years. One theory he threw out there was that the brain was what limited us at max exhurstion not our heart.

Anyhow on to the fat as energy thing he has been writing about lately. It all started because he ended up overweight and with heart disease. Man was that disappointing. Here was this guy on the insert of his book looking like a fit running professor and he becomes fat and unhealthy and joins the paleo group. Made me really sad.

Rami Najjar

Its interesting how so many find the paleo diet so appealing. I am in the preliminary process of conducting my own study using paleo nutrition to the T vs very low fat plant based nutrition, head to head. Its going to be a short interventional study looking at the inflammatory effects of 1 meal + endothelial dysfunction but it will be very enlightening nonetheless. Both meals will be organic and the paleo meal will contain non starchy vegetables just like they advocate. It will be the first study of its kind to do this, and be true to both diets.

Veganrunner

That is wonderful! So the subjects will come in and have one meal or the other and you will test endothelial function? The volunteers will be on the SAD? How many subjects will you have?

Thea

Rami: This is SO COOL! I think this type of study is great. I hope you will let us know the results.

Grass fed dairy and meat with pastured eggs sounds good, but there’s something wrong with it. I grew up on a remote cattle ranch and my dad was very much against the use of any kind of pesticide or growth additive, either in the animals or hay crops. So all we had was pure naturally organic and grass-fed beef, pork, totally free range chickens. We even made our own butter and milked our own cows, and made cottage cheese.

We had a 2 acre garden that required a lot of work to keep kids busy and we had our own orchard. The only store bought item we consumed regularly was Quaker Old Fashioned rolled oats, but mostly our diets were anything beef — including sweetbreads and scrambled brains with eggs.

Sadly 3 of my siblings died young as teenagers from illnesses of unknown origin. There were 5 of us, close and close in age. My surviving brother was not deathly ill, but had hay fever, asthma and a heart murmur. My aunt always said it was because we ate far too much meat — and it would make my dad furious to be told that. When my oldest brother left home, he became totally vegan, and now over 30 years later — he looks like Adonis, as well as being super fit — fast and athletic.

Halli620

I’m very sorry to hear about your siblings. However, this sounds like very anecdotal evidence. While the balance of research in general, taking into account many extremes, continues to suggest that a well rounded diet is best, with any beef being grass fed, but without excluding any of the 5 main “food groups, and yes, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. I haven’t seen any research linking meat to asthma, hay fever, or heart murmers, and certainly being physically fit requires physical exertion as much as a healthy diet. I’m very glad that your brother has gotten past his ailments and is doing well, though to claim that this proves that total abstention from meat was necessary is not supported, as opposed to the addition of newer, helpful dietary, medical, and/or exercise aspects. We cannot know what your young siblings passed from according to your post to attempt to link their deaths to meat or anything else. I hope that you and your family continue with the diets that you feel suit you best and that they continue to do so.

No one on this thread is suggesting an all meat diet is healthy, no matter how the animals are treated.

Guest

How is this any different from the paleo cheerleaders who claim they reversed all their diseases and lost 15 pounds from stopping carbs and eating cow and eggs and coconut oil?

It’s ALL anecdotal unless actual studies take place to prove it.

Furthermore there is ZERO evidence that increasing consumption of animal products is healthful, where as increasing whole plant foods consumption is, and has been shown in thousands of studies.

Shaylen Snarski

Of course you feel better… you eliminated wheat which is HORRIBLE for everyone. But eliminate dairy and you’ll feel mounds better! There is nothing healthy about dairy except for an unweaned infant drinking their mother’s milk which is intended only for them. There is also nothing sustainable about it and nothing less than cruel.

I’ve eliminated dairy during 40-day Great Lents – I don’t feel any different except that I crave cheese and raw heavy cream in my espresso!

Shaylen Snarski

I was a vegetarian since I was little and was totally addicted to dairy. I’m a vegan now and when first going vegan, I craved dairy like crazy! It literally has addicting compounds, among the hormones, there’s naturally occurring morphine. Also I noticed that I craved the things that I was used to getting certain nutrients from, like eggs. Once I started re-learning how to eat and started getting my nutrients more from veggies, fruits, and legumes, nuts, seeds (beans and such were completely absent from my pre-vegan diet), I completely stopped craving all the animal products I used to rely on. My theory is that my body craved those things not only due to the addictive components, but because that is what it was used to getting specific nutrients I needed.
I personally felt SO much better after giving up diary.. I did detox for a couple months though. But I was no longer constantly congested among an array of other new health benefits I experienced. I was actually surprised at the difference as I thought I was pretty healthy before from just not eating meat.
I do recommend giving up dairy for anyone for the purpose of justice and compassion as the dairy industry is as cruel as it gets, I mean truly beyond imagination (I used to think I was being cruelty free by getting from organic farms and such). And then there’s the sustainability reason which is a major factor. But also because the science all points to dairy having no place in the human diet or anyone’s diet other than baby cows, baby goats, etc.

Just my two cents. Figured I’d throw it out there plus share my experience with giving up dairy.

It’s funny how you vegans talk about hormones in dairy, but totally ignore the loads of phytoestrogens in your plant foods! Same with the casomorphin hypothesis (just because it sounds like “morphine” doesn’t make it identical or close) that’s never been proven unlike the proven addictiveness of refined carbs that you eat loads of! How you feel and how long and healthily you live are two separate things.

Chemical compounds found in some plants are similar to estrogen, but they do not have an effect on estrogen. In animals, you are getting unnatural hormones. Plants contain a perfect balance of chemical compounds that study after study shows to be the most beneficial diet for human health.
Funny you should mention heavy metals… Dr. Greger has a video here addressing that, actually. There are more heavy metals found in animal products. Any heavy metals found in plants are shown not to pose a threat to humans because the abundant supply of antioxidants, fiber, and other nutrients get rid of any present in the plant and then some! In fact, studies show that the MORE plants people eat, the LESS heavy metals and other dangerous contaminants humans have in their bodies. So if you’re eating say… the liver of another animal, you would be better off having a BUNCH of greens with it as that could actually stop or drastically help the absorption of those heavy metals.

Um, I do not eat refined carbs… maybe learn before telling someone what they eat? I eat zero refined carbs in fact, but know plenty who do and they are quite healthy. I don’t advocate refined foods at all, personally though.
Refined foods and animal products are along the same lines as far as health goes.

People like you are just hell bent on defending their unhealthy and archaic habits. This is a scientific site so I’m not bringing up the cruelty and injustice as well as the unsustainability, but that’s some research I could suggest for you in turn for your suggestion ;) which, by the way, I’m extremely caught up on the latest research.

Clearly I’ve irritated you and made you defensive, was just trying to share info.

Any evidence that there are more heavy metals in animal products than in, let’s say, organic California apples or organic turmeric from India? Of course, I’m not here to defend industrial-scale animal farming – I’m totally against CAFOs, and that’s why all my animal foods come from Certified Humane vendors, i.e. my animal calories come from grass processed into more complex nutrients by farm animals.

Shaylen Snarski

I replied to this but not sure why it isn’t showing up…

Thea

I’m having trouble finding some posts right now myself. I’m guessing that disqus is having some issues and hopefully it will be cleared up soon.

Shaylen Snarski

The compounds in plants that are similar to estrogen do not affect our estrogen levels at all. Animal products contain unnatural added hormones and even “grass-fed” “farmed” animals have these things bred into them at this point.

From my understanding, all mothers milk contain a compound that draws a baby to the mother, to get them to drink. In cows, I once learned that this substance was actually morphine which is safe for baby cows (whom cows milk is intended for) but is harmful to humans. Granted, I learned this a while ago and haven’t read up on it since then.
But as far as hormones in dairy, MAJORLY different from that of plants as animals and plants are majorly different form one another. Though I’m not only talking about naturally occurring hormones, like I said, I’m talking about the added hormones as well.
Those “anti-nutrients” you’re referring to are complete nonsense. These are phytates: phytic acid, and it is proven that these play no significant role in depleting or leaching to nutrients. They have no negative effect. Further more, these things are actually thought to be BENEFICIAL and there for a reason. There is still so much to learn and science will never grasp it all but the evidence in how essential and incredibly healthy plant foods are, is abundant and clear… It’s quite simple. The more plant foods you eat, the healthier you are…
Goitrogens are another bit of nonsense blown WAY out of proportion and I have no doubt the multibillion dollar animal agriculture industry funds studies trying to find damning evidence against plants… well, they continue to fail. Goitrogens, even in excess, have no negative impact on healthy individuals. I actually had a thyroid problem and instead of taking meds, I relied on a mostly raw food plant diet to heal me and that included daily intake of cruciforous vegetables and I was able to get back to having a healthy thyroid, no medication needed.
There is a reason that the plant foods with all these things you’re referring to, are in fact, considered the healthiest foods on the planet and the most recommended by doctors… even the still archaic ones.
Heavy metals in plants has no impact on people, in fact, the more plants people eat, the lower their heavy metal levels are! Dr. Greger actually has an entire video on this, I’d check it out. As is always the case, nature knows what it’s doing, and for us herbivorous humans, plants are designed to be the perfect food for us. Even if a plant has heavy metals in it, the abundant antioxidants, fiber, and other nutrients prevent our bodies from holding onto any of it AND help our bodies rid of any heavy metals currently present in our bodies. Animal flesh has the MOST heavy metals and does not contain compounds to prevent our bodies from holding onto them. But in fact, if you eat a bunch of greens with that side of liver, for example, it will help you not retain those heavy metals present in that animal product.

Detoxing is NOT a myth. It is a natural, constantly occurring process in our bodies. Healthy foods: plant foods help us detox all the time. They pull out heavy metals, they pull out an array of toxins… Detoxification is a science, it is simply how our bodies work and what we put in them has everything to do with it.
What you’re referring to about the scam, is companies trying to bank in on the detoxification process by selling expensive kits. Now depending on what is in these things, they MAY aid in detoxification, but certainly nothing you can produce with whole foods at a much cheaper cost.
But companies and big pharma are always using new knowledge to make a profit. Keep in mind that the biggest money makers out there, with the biggest agenda, are the animal agriculture industries and big pharma, among some others.

I would definitely spend less time worrying about the chemical compounds of plants, that have been proven time and time again to be the healthiest and most important foods for us, and more time worrying about the STAPH infections of the animals you eat, the way our bodies cannot digest them, the transfats, the saturated fats, their acidity, the dangerous bacteria, the carcinogens due to heating and heating is necessary with these things, the pus and blood present in them, the bleach and other toxins necessary to render them “safe,” and so on…

Bottom line, we can live without animal products (in fact, we thrive without them when eating a real foods diet), but absolutely cannot live without plants in our diet.

It’s not morphine, it’s casomorphine, and it’s only in some milk, but there’s no scientific proof it has any ill-effects – people have been drinking milk for millennia unlike with plant anti-nutrients which have negative effects even on livestock. Goitrogens have no negative impact, really? But, I guess, you’re creating new science, I guess, if getting into the way of iodine supply is fine. Okay, phytoestrogens are not bioidentical, but they still bind to the same receptors – research that some of the phytoestrogens (there are different types of phytoestrogens in different types plants) even make breast cancer worse. But how about lectins, phytic acid, oxalates, gliadin, and the plethora other less popular ones? Okay, some might be beneficial… if you have cancer, but when you’re healthy – plant toxins cannot be beneficial – that’s why they are called toxins! Not to mention plants are loaded with all kinds of inorganic toxins these days – lead, arsenic, cadmium, and others. Not to mention plants are loaded with mold and mold toxins, too, some of which are the most potent toxins known to science and proven to cause cancer. Also, can you list the hormones in milk and the amounts? Because milk has only traces – mother nature is smart enough not to allow hormones in milk as those are not beneficial for the baby either. Well, in CAFOs, they milk the cows while they are pregnant – that’s where the hormone stories originate from. Certified Human prohibits milking pregnant cows. People like me who consume quality animal products buy them from select and certified sources – just like most vegans eat organic, local, etc. – not from industrial farming.

“The acidity…” – oh, the alkaline nonsense again! The loads of pseudoscience are overwhelming! Blood acidity and GI tract acidity are two separate things! So many not-so-smart people today buy overly expensive high Ph poor quality water and drink it while eating getting into the way of their digestion.

Who eats animals with staph infections?! This kind of vegan propaganda is just getting ridiculous! At least, if you’re smart and educated, talk about prions, talk about economics, and other real threats of eating animal products, but, no, you choose to spread misinformation and pseudoscience!

Shaylen Snarski

And if Ancel Keyes jumped off a bridge… lol. Seriously though, trans fats are dangerous in any amount, so eating animals simply doesn’t make sense. Add that to the plethora of hazards of humans consuming “beef” and other animal flesh and secretions, and well… you just have yet another reason not to, in the mountainous pile of reasons.

Mike Quinoa

Are there any other studies that absolve saturated fat’s impact on CVD, and what kind of sat fat was used in this study?

thehungryguineapig

It’s actually a meta-analysis which is compilation of a number of different studies (21 in this case). I don’t know what types of saturated fats were studied, but meta-analyses tend to be more comprehensive and reliable than single studies.

I disagree with your statement about the reliability of meta analysis. We are seeing more of them because they are relatively inexpensive to do. The problem from a statistics point of view is that when you combine studies you bring all the shortcomings together. You also don’t see the studies that were excluded. It is hard to assess single studies but when you have many rolled together it is very difficult. It can be a very useful tool but like all studies need to be viewed within the context of their strengths and weaknesses.

I have been consuming coconut oil (a la carte) in copuious amounts for maybe 18 years, I recently had some blood work done and my numbers were great. I’m in my early forties and routinely eat coconut oil every morning as well as before athletic competitions. I workout maybe 3 times a week (nothing too intense). My resting heart rate is in the low 40’s. I enjoy smoking weed, doing yoga, holding hands and taking long walks on the beach. Coconut oil is great on your hair, skin (especially after getting sunburned), and makes for a phenomenal massage oil … the ladies love it :)

Hey Dr. I ordered one of your videos a couple of years ago and you never sent it, what gives?

I hope you get this. I can’t figure out where to post this question. What do you think of the hCG diet. What reliable studies have been done specifically about the safety and efficacy of the use of hCG itself? I have heard Nay Sayers say that it wrecks havoc on your metabolism. I have looked for unbiased research or anything that says the latter and have been unable.

Can we please stop calling LDL “bad cholesterol”? First, cholesterol is not bad. Secondly, not all LDL particles clog arteries – only the small dense ones and your studies measured only LDL-C. You’re trying so hard to be a vegetarian/vegan nazi than you start bashing even healthful vegetarian foods, because they have something remotely similar to meat products. This doesn’t serve you well!

Did you know that the scientists you criticise discovered cholesterol’s role in the body? It’s not news to them. Glucose is the only fuel that red blood cells can use so there it is vital to the body too. Just like cholesterol too much in the blood is bad for you. Did you know cholesterol cannot pass the brain-blood barrier? Your brain cells make their own and every cell is capable of this.

Ancel Keys was a productive scientist whom used to recommend bacon and eggs. He proved himself wrong like any good honest scientist should.

So, YouTube should be my source of (dis)information? When you pitch one or another theory so passionately (like the Plant Positive guy from the anti-Taubes YouTube series you mention) – being Ancel Keys, Gary Taubes, or Greger, you’re lead by your ego, agenda, and not purely by science. Cherry-picking studies that fit your point and ignoring others is being a charlatan and not a scientist. Even Ancel Keys knew that most circulating cholesterol is endogenous, yet, he vilified a super food like eggs! People are pushed from one extreme to another! Look at sodium, for example – another essential mineral was bashed with little evidence! Or take a look at the trendy gluten-free foods, which are trading celiac disease for diabetes! What Gary Taubes taught us is that traditional foods are best as they’ve passed through rigorous tests of time and that we’re best adapted to them. He also taught us that scientists are more often than not lead by interests other than science.

If Taubes were not criticized and protested by the very scientists he cites for his taking their words out of context and for imputing intent that was contrary to the researchers’ true positions, I might actually have a little respect for his point of view.

Toxins

The youtube series is actually very well constructed and lays down the science very well. The paleo diet is indeed a crock.

Carlos169

The thing that never ceases to amaze me is that no one make any specific criticism of Plant Positives work. Ever. Why is that?

Gary Taubes also says there is no problem with factory farmed animal products as well. How is that traditional?

All you’ve done is make big claims that scientists in general are wrong but have nothing specific.

Nobody criticizes Plant Positive’s work as nobody has the patience to watch it all. I don’t recall in any of Gary Taubes’ two books (the original and the shorter and more recently updated one) to pitch of factory farmed animal products and I am only discussing his books. Yes, dietary cholesterol raises serum, too, but 80% of serum cholesterol is endogenous, so, eating eggs or not won’t really make a big dent. And serum cholesterol is not necessarily bad. Recently there were studies showing that the lower the serum cholesterol is, the shorter the lifespan is. I’m sure you’re aware of Chris Masterjohn and his work.

In his NY Times article, Taubes took his sources’ words out of context; that’s called dishonesty; no way around it.

joeboosauce

It’s called academic integrity and honesty which Taubes has demonstrated time and time again. He’s a journalist with an agenda to sell books. That’s all he is.

And Chris Masterjohn is motivated by his psychological issues as he mentioned in a recent debate on intelligence squared. He has made really bad assumptions on his own health issues and diet. I think the poor guy is just lost and you get that from the debate. You should research the people who feed you this “research.”

International Journal of Behavioral Nutrition and Physical Activity 2012, 9:67

“In Western cultures vegetarian diet is associated with an elevated risk of mental disorders.”

What is the name of the psych disorder where one prefers cherry-picked studies over real data and is insufferably pious and rude to meat eaters simply because they disagree with you. Oh yes, I remember–Veganism. Let’s see if your madness can be cured.

joeboosauce

Haha, Apparently, you have only a cursory understanding of the study you cite… Go actually read the study and read what it really says…

Here is something to CONTEXTUALIZE that study for you… you ever see the skyrocketing rates of psych disorders in the USA??? Oh, let me guess, these millions upon millions are all vegans!

If you want I can also give you the one with higher IQ correlation with veg children. And the pro-paleo attempted study which shows that paleo actually impairs brain function! LOL Are you part of that study?

Paleo Huntress

The first two links lead me to a blank, black screen. Perhaps you could simply provide the citations and I’ll find them myself.

The third link says nothing about omni or vegan diets.

These are the three you’ve “upped” me by? Well, ok.

Paleo Huntress

And yes, please elucidate me with a citation for the “pro-paleo” study that shows impaired brain function. I don’t know what this has to do with coconut oil or veganism, but I’d love to have it for my own library.

I’m all for a vigorous debate (even vehement disagreement!), but no insults or name-calling, please. Let’s keep this a safe place for all of us.

Paleo Huntress

Without a doubt. Start with Greger, the guy has never done any nutrition research in his life and his allegiance is to the Humane Society which makes ALL oƒ his anti-animal food advice suspect.

I can’t imagine what he might be motivated by… but it isn’t science.

Thea

Paleo Huntress: It is unacceptable to post known lies about a person on this site. As evidenced by the hundreds and hundreds of videos showing the results of likely thousands of hours of nutrition research, it is patently untrue that Dr. Greger has never done nutrition research.

You are welcome to disagree with Dr. Greger’s conclusions. The rest of your post, which expresses your opinion, is acceptable, if in poor taste. But the flat out lie is unacceptable.

You have a come a remarkably LONG way in improving the tone of your posts on this site. I appreciate that you have made such an effort in toning down the rudeness. Let’s not backslide now.

Paleo Huntress

Way to be triggered, Thea. It is not a lie, it is the absolute TRUTH.
I’m not talking about him sitting in front of his computer READING, I’m talking about him being involved in the actual research… the stuff done in a lab? I’ve probably spent more time reading research than Dr. Greger has, what merit am I owed for that?
Cite any peer-reviewed nutrition article published in a scientific journal with Dr. Greger’s name on it. The only actual research he’s ever done was on agriculture, not nutrition.

Paleo Huntress

And please, save the judgmental sanctimony for someone who cares.

Paleo Huntress

My apologies, Thea… I was struggling with a stubborn teen at the time I responded to you. FWIW, I do find your last paragraph both condescending and superior, but I didn’t need to be so harsh in my response. We have a history of miscommunication– I will try to keep that in mind the next time you misunderstand me, and I would hope that you’ll try to keep that in mind the next time you feel compelled to respond so ferociously. If we both do that, I think we’ll manage better.

Thea

Paleo Huntress: My sympathies in dealing with a human teen. That can be tough.

My last comment was meant as a sincere complement/appreciation of you and meant to be encouraging. I had been thinking those thoughts for some time now and thought this would be a good time to share. I wish the sentiment came across to you as I intended, but I hear you that it does not. I have taken note of your feelings and will do my best to avoid complements to you in the future. Fair enough.

Paleo Huntress

Aww now, please try a little harder to be genuine. This is a compliment–> “You have a come a remarkably LONG way in improving the tone of your posts on this site.”

This is a scolding–> “I appreciate that you have made such an effort in toning down the rudeness. Let’s not backslide now.”

If there were any kind of relationship where you were a mentor, a boss, a parent or some other person in authority to me, it might possibly have context because one expects a relationship like that to foster a desire to please. But without any sort of relationship, the comment is condescending- in the same way that calling someone you don’t know by a familiar term like “Honey” or “sweetie” is.

And I think you know that… it’s hard to imagine someone reaching your age without picking up some of the more subtle forms of communication. If you truly don’t, I apologize for the assumption.

In the future, if you have an actual compliment to share that isn’t actually intended to provide context to a scolding, I hope you’ll feel free. =)

joeboosauce

I’m sorry but is that all you got? That is a feeble attempt. Wow. Hmmm… let’s see, he provides YOU with research which which has nothing to do with him and mostly non-vegan researchers (not that it matters except to a few dullards who don’t even have the slightest understanding of peer-review publishing). But, I see… you are too LAZY to actually follow INTERNET LINKS to articles and examine them yourself. That you in a nutshell? Yeah, thought so, but no skill on my part, you just made it that easy miss “paleo huntress.” I’m finding that those on “paleo” have a severe critical thinking issues. BTW, you know that that diet those diet gurus sell books for have zero understanding of what people ate back then. That’s the problem with “paleo.” No one knows with any certainty what they ate BACK IN THE PAST. Plenty of evidence that they did not follow “The Paleo Diet” (trademark).

Paleo Huntress

I have no idea where your assumptions come from, but that is all they are, ASSumptions. It isn’t often that Greger presents a citation to a published study that I haven’t already read, but when he does, I read it as well. There is nothing wrong with the data he posts, the issue is that he claims it proves something it cannot possibly prove, and he conspicuously leaves out the pro-meat data he found while “scouring” the research to the picture is never balanced, just perpetually biased.. If his intentions were truly to educate, he’d share everything pertinent to the topic, even if he disagrees with it. In fact, if he had a solid argument, a pro-meat study would give him the opportunity to show where the flaws are, but he just pretends it doesn’t exist.
So again, instead of attacking strangers on the internet merely because they disagree with your religion, try reading what they write and responding to that instead.
McDougall has done his own research.
Frassetto has done her own research
Ornish has done his own research.

Cordain has done his own research.

Campbell has done his own research.

Cousens has done his own research.

Greger has NOT done his own research. Greger scours OTHER people’s research.
If you’re gonna look to a guru for information, you should definitely research the people who feed you this “research”– because ANY clown can learn to read at PubMed.

Where is dog’s name would you think that ANYONE would think that Gregor has done research on what he writes about?!?!?? THAT is mind-blowing!!!! He does not present himself in that way. That’s a straw man and a red herring if I ever saw one. You’re gonna post crap faux intellectualism fed to you by the latest diet guru on the internet, I sure as hell am going to come at you.

Paleo Huntress

Where in cat’s name would you get the idea that I said that Dr. Greger misrepresents himself?

Read. Again.

I’m used to vegans with no real understanding of science “coming at me”. Bring it on. See if you can in any way stick to the science because the personal attacks are tedious and are generally the first sign that someone’s argument is too weak to stand on its own.

joeboosauce

Looky here at what you said:

“McDougall has done his own research.

Frassetto has done her own research
Ornish has done his own research.

Cordain has done his own research.

Campbell has done his own research.

Cousens has done his own research.

Greger has NOT done his own research.”

So the heck what? No sheet sherlock. Why in dogs name would you even need to make that statement? It’s a BS distraction. Did you watch his videos for a long time and get destoryed once you realized he was simply REVIEWING other research???? I would bet money no one else thought that. “Stick to the science.” You haven’t presented anything except “wah wah Humane society wah wah.”

Paleo Huntress

Joeboosauce, you are one ugly individual. Here, I’ll help you with a little context-

“the guy has never done any nutrition research in his life and his allegiance is to the Humane Society which makes ALL oƒ his anti-animal food advice suspect.”

“It is unacceptable to post known lies about a person on this site. As evidenced by the hundreds and hundreds of videos showing the results of likely thousands of hours of nutrition research, it is patently untrue that Dr. Greger has never done nutrition research.”

“I’m not talking about him sitting in front of his computer READING, I’m talking about him being involved in the actual research… the stuff done in a lab.”

What exactly is so special about reading Medline, picking out the data that supports your pet theory and posting it online? What kind of expertise does this require? Doctors get less formal nutrition training that nutritionists do and anybody can be a nutritionist, you don’t even need a degree. So what can Dr. Greger do that any half-literate person can’t also do for themselves at Medline/Pubmed?

Nothing.

Paleo Huntress

I have no idea where your assumptions come from, but that is all they are, ASSumptions. It isn’t often that Greger presents a citation to a published study that I haven’t already read, but when he does, I read it as well. There is nothing wrong with the data he posts, the issue is that he claims it proves something it cannot possibly prove, and he conspicuously leaves out the pro-meat data he found while “scouring” the research, so the picture is never balanced, just perpetually biased.. If his intentions were truly to educate, he’d share everything pertinent to the topic, even if he disagrees with it. In fact, if he had a solid argument, a pro-meat study would give him the opportunity to show where the flaws are, but he just pretends it doesn’t exist.

So again, instead of attacking strangers on the internet merely because they disagree with your religion, try reading what they write and responding to that instead.

McDougall has done his own research.
Frassetto has done her own research
Ornish has done his own research.
Cordain has done his own research.
Campbell has done his own research.
Cousens has done his own research.

Greger has NOT done his own research. Greger scours OTHER people’s research.

If you’re gonna look to a guru for information, you should definitely research the people who feed you this “research”– because ANY clown can learn to read at PubMed, even you.

Such is the nature of the controversial world of nutrition science these days. Although, I suspect that much of the claims made by the pro-coconut folks is not based on good science.

Thea

This is such great info. The science and info is compelling. Thanks for addressing this topic. Much needed!!!

J. Ann

There is a huge difference between organic extra virgin coconut oil and the coconut oil that is processed. Were the studies conducted with the processed coconut oil? Any studies done with the organic one? This should be answered before everyone gets on the bandwagen that coconut oil is bad for us.

Then why have so many people regained their health by using Co oil? It’s highly recommended for gut healing, reducing inflammation, and helping with metabolism. I unfortunately know way too many vegans who are now paleo due to nutrient deficiency issues and other major health problem that they developed from a vegan diet… And yes, they were eating a near perfect vegan diet. Since adding back meat, their health has improved greatly: no more ibs/ibd, a healed gut, bettet energ . And sleep, no more depression or anxiety, stable wt, no intense hunger despite being full, balanced hormones etc. Can u please explain this?

Veganrunner

Hi Stacy,

How do you know “too many vegans?” I find us to be rather rare. I live in Southern California and you would think being in the land of fruits and nuts I would know even just one. And I am not a recluse.

Soon to know one though! My sister is going vegan after some disappointing heart health news. Now I won’t be the only one bringing vegan dishes to the holiday get-togethers!

What a great story! Turns out he lived to 100, though. His diet and fitness likely helped him live to such a great age. I suspect it was more than this, though. I read a book on eccentric people (and I think Jack Kirk would qualify). They are usually healthier than other people… and they don’t care what other people think of them or how they like to live. Worth thinking about!

Bert

I can guarantee you that this 96 year old didn’t start out as a vegan. Show me a 96 year old vegan from birth who was born of lifelong vegan parents. I’ll bet there are none, zero, nada. Not even Indian Gurus are vegan. They eat dairy.

joeboosauce: Personal attacks are not OK on this site. You can disagree with someone strongly, but a personal attack is unacceptable. We want this site to be a place where people can share ideas politely. A polite environment is the starting ingredient for a productive effort.

joeboosauce

Thea,
I got pulled in by what I saw as ridiculous comments and acknowledge I got myself pulled in. Sorry, I’ll make sure not to get pulled in again. :(

Thea

joeboosauce: Believe me, I fully understand. Thank you for this note.

Bert

Link please !
Your brain is made up of cholesterol and fat and needs these substances to function properly that is why your cholesterol is recycled in the liver and not removed from the body thru your kidneys.
Sounds like your brain is malfunctioning from lack of these critical nutrients.

How do all these low-carb people know more vegans than vegans do? Show me a study of all these perfect vegans that had to go “paleo” because their perfect vegan diet failed them.

I personally don’t know a single vegan in person, but I do know many non-vegans who are overweight and/or unhealthy from my perspective. What about the millions on non-vegan diets that get sick and/or die? Just ignore them. Paleo is fad and unhealthy (and it’s not even real paleo), no matter what your paleo gurus tell you.

I’d love to find A vegan, A lacto-ovo vegetarian, or even A mostly whole plants flexitarian amongst my friends and relatives.

emmarsh

Haaaaah! Good points. I’ve lived in Atlanta where I worked for a year at a health food store and now in a very small town. In that time I’ve only known 2 vegans. One of them I married.

Thea

stacy,

I happen to know several vegans as I am involved in a group of health, environmental, and ethically conscious people. NONE of them have had to add any animal products into their diet for any reason. Some of them have been vegans for *decades*. I know a 20 something person who has been vegan since birth, not counting breast feeding from a vegan mother in infancy. Every single one of these people are the picture of health.

It is near impossible for me to believe that you know even one person, let alone many, who were truly eating a balanced whole-food vegan diet, with B12 supplement, and who developed nutrient deficiencies. Nutrient deficiencies are notoriously the problem of animal eaters since animal products contain trace elements of the vital micro nutrients at best. Thus, it is likely that if you know any former vegans who actually claim that they developed nutrient deficiencies, they have likely not been truthful with you about what their former diets were. Something to think about.

The only time I have heard of someone running into a problem on a healthy whole plant-food based diet is someone who has a genetic defect, where their body is not able to make all of the proteins that the bodies of normal humans make. Dr. Greger has a video on this problem if you are interested.

joeboosauce

What you’ve posted seems like obvious rubbish. Where do you live? I would like to come to a place with so many vegans. Funny, I know so many people who eat paleo who have quit saying it is unsustainable and they felt like crap. It’s not hard since this fad diet craze has taken foot. Good thing I’m seeing is it’s dying down just like Atkins.

Darryl

A cursory search on Pubmed reveals that coconut oil (both plain and hydrogenated) has been used to induce elevated serum cholesterol and atherosclerosis in animal studies for the past 50 years.

When I discovered this a few years ago, I was saddened; coconut milk laced curries were among my favorite dishes. I soon discovered that Tom Yum (Thai hot & sour soup) is even better than Tom Kha (Thai coconut soup), so all is well.

Synergy

Dr. Greger,

Wouldn’t Organic Extra Virgin Coconut Oil (important distinction) in moderation be superior to unsaturated vegetable oils when cooking at high temperatures given the free radical production of those “healthier” oils in such settings? Would that balance the scales at all?

Along those lines, I would love to see more debate with regard to the paleo diet (exploding in popularity in my experience) and cholesterol/saturated fat proponents (Gary Taubes, for example). How can such a large crowd of seemingly credible dietitians (in many instances) come to such polar opposite conclusions?

I don’t know how many times people have recommended I read Taubes books or Lierre Keith’s The Vegetarian Myth (which I have read much of) and other such books. Just look at the reviews on Amazon for Johnny Bowden’s The Great Cholesterol Myth!

Your link refers to a recent analysis of data from the Sydney Diet Heart Study – a randomised controlled trial conducted from 1966 to 1973. It refers to substituting sunflower oil and sunflower oil margarine. I am surprised the margarine is not referred to as a trans fat, something that was not known to be harmful back in the 60’s and 70’s, but which are well known now.

I’m sure Dr. G will get into the details of the data, but I know what Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn would say about it:

Coconut oil is superior for cooking for the reason you mentioned, absolutely. There is plenty of science that demonstrates that cholestrol buildup in arteries and veins is not due to the presence of saturated fat, but due to the inflammation of the inner linings of the blood vessels, and that the laying down of cholestrol is a protective function of the body. What causes that inflammation? Probably the carcinogens we ingest, like the unsaturated fats in other vegetable oils that result from cooking, sitting on shelves too long, or factory extraction processes.

It seems that your scientific perspective is dated. There is little evidence that the amount of cholestrol in the blood stream correlates to thickening of plaque buildup in arteries. In fact, it is not thought that inflamation of the arterial and venous walls is what stimulates the blood stream to lay down a protective layer of cholestrol, which begins the process… I would dispute your findings on coconut oil increasing the presence in our systems, but i would dispute the idea that it really matters as much as you are insinuating (in the prevention of atherosclerosis and arteriosclerosis)…

Plant Power

Says who? Where are you getting this information from? Provide credible sources, please.

What do you suggest as a butter substitute for those of us trying to follow your recommendations? I’ve been able to rid my diet pretty easily of everything but real cheese and butter, and I’d be very interested in any suggestions or resources you may have. Thanks for all you do!

Thank you for this excellent and much needed information!! So many people are grabbing at the crazy notion that fats and cholesterol are no problem for your health. I love when people say they “know numerous amounts of vegans” who have had to go Paleo for their health. I can tell you, as a Seventh Day Adventist I know hundreds and hundreds of vegetarians and vegans who have thrived on those diets for their entire lives… Many of them well into their 80’s and 90’s!!! Numerous studies have been done on our members and time after time the studies have shown that not only are we healthier, but we also live longer than any other group of people. Find me a similar Paleo group that can show the same data for over 200 years… I don’t think you can. Thanks Dr. Greger for another educational piece!!

Cholesterol is important for your body and living. Yes you might get higher cholesterol levels by eating saturated fat as butter and coconut oil, but it changes your cholesterol profile to a better one, that is not associated with getting heartdeceases. It changes your LDL particals from small ones that is a risk for heartdeceas, to big particals that flows easily through your veins, and don`t get stuck, and those big particals are not associated with heartdeceases. Oil and margarine made of plants are making an unbalance in your fatty acids balance, because of the amount of omega-6 acids. This could make inflammations in your veins and give a high risk of getting heartdeceases. Butter and extra virgin coconut oil is the best if you want to be healthy and well!

Not all oils or margarine’s have poor omega ratios, or are hydrogenated. Many are absolutely fine. Canola is about 1:2. Olive 1:10. The best meats like grass fed beef are about 1:8. Butter 1:7. Coconut oil practically has no omega 3. Same with most conventional meats. One study saw that polyunsaturated fat intake was negatively associated with CRP (a marker for inflammation). In many studies saturated fat has caused inflammation.

Biochemystery

The crux of the argument lies in the title of this post: Does Coconut oil clog arteries? And the answer is probably not, since the oil in most studies raises HDL slightly more than it icreases LDL, thereby IMPROVING the lipid profile and CVD risk.

For me, your condescending tone gets in the way of any information you are trying to convey.

Eudemonia

But how bad would eating coconut oil be, really, if you’ve been vegan for almost a decade getting no cholesterol and very very low levels of sat fat in your diet? I started eating coconut oil (sparingly, I use it to make refried beans and to roast the veggies I put in my soups) along with more avocado recently as, after 9 years of being vegan, I was feeling rather low-energy and moody and thought it might be due to low levels of cholesterol inhibiting some hormone production. I feel much better now not to mention my hair and skin aren’t dry as heck and I rarely get rashes/hives that used to be near constant. Am I just crazy or could there be some truth to needing SOME intake when you’re already eating low-fat vegan?

Bert

This video and this so called Doctor are full of rubbish ! Complete RUBBISH !!!!

“Rubbish”? Oh no, just the facts, the peer-reviewed, empirical, and reproducible scientific facts.

Bert

In your dreams maybe !

Bert

The problem is refined carbohydrates, sugars and vegetable oils which are all relatively new additions to the human diet. Vegetable (seed) oils have only been around for the last 100 years and are extremely unstable and go rancid quite readily especially when heated. These oxidized lipids then become free radicals in the body.
It’s Tragic that we were told to abandon traditional Lard, (which, if it was from pastured animals is second only to Cod Fish Liver oil in it’s vitamin D content) and replace it with cancer causing free radical vegetable oils ! Lard is also made up of mostly saturated fats which do not oxidize when heated. All this because of the unfounded fear of cholesterol.
Is it any wonder why we got so sick ????

Annoyed by Paleofraud

I agree wholeheartedly about refined oils, they have no place in a healthy diet; from what I gather this is Dr. Greger’s position as well. Common ground aside, I’m sensing a double standard (see the studies cited by Dr. G and show me the double blind ‘lard is good for your brain and heart’ studies — there aren’t any), as well as an irresistible affinity for good news about bad habits.

Bert

Show me the studies that show lard is bad for me… There are none either !

Bert

Fear based Vegan propaganda and nothing else. Show me the clinical trials with a double blind placebo study. There aren’t any dumbo !

Annoyed by Paleofraud

Click on the references cited tab above for the 2XB studies on coconut oil. Regarding your ‘dumbo’ comment this is not the forum for name calling and detracts from your arguments.

I don’t agree that a purposely and unnaturally mutated plant should be called a “whole, unprocessed plant food” but the mutation industry might. Nightshade reaction varies from person to person–may be a genetic difference, but definitely varies between individuals.
“most nightshade plants cause inflammation” sounds blanket and inaccurate, like it applies to everyone – it doesn’t. So you might need a better example, aside from GMOs and allergens (also very individual), before trumpeting “Wrong again.”

Thea

How about: whole fruits, vegetables, grains, legumes, nuts and seeds. The range of healthy food options is huge. I recommend getting a good whole food plant based cookbook and you will be amazed at the variety. Good luck.

Lauren Remington

Free range meat, eggs, legumes, nuts and seeds. Most fruit and vegetables are gmo. Even if they aren’t they are at the most 30% bio available with nutrients. And let’s not forget they are carbohydrate which is tech talk for “sugar water”. As for grains, your body can’t digest most of today’s grains. Your great grandmother wouldn’t recognize most of the things you call food.

Toxins

Many citations are needs for your response. I have never seen a single study implicating gmo as inflammatory, nor have I seen studies implicating WHOLE unrefined grains as being bad for us. Pointing to Celiac disease is not evidence in itself that grains are harmful.

“Paleo Huntress” has been banned (again) for her continued ad hominem attacks. I’m all for discussion (even vehement disagreement!), but name-calling has no place and detracts from the safe, welcoming space we’re trying to create here on NutritionFacts.org. Please email to alert me if you see any racist/misogynist/homophobic/etc. or otherwise innappropriate language in the comments section and I’ll try to attend to it asap: mhg1@cornell.edu. Sorry it took me so long to catch this–I’ve been so busy winnowing down the 500+ applicants down to just 7 people so far in the running! (http://nutritionfacts.org/2013/12/20/employment/)

Thea

Thank you!!!!

joeboosauce

Hey, sorry, I should have realized she was a troll and should have known better than to get pulled into an argument!

Annoyed by Paleofraud

No shame but don’t feed the trolls anymore.

Annoyed by Paleofraud

She creeped me out several months ago by posting a lot of personal information on me from sources outside this forum, thought I would need to hire protection. Now I’m posting anonymously. Is there any way to have those old inappropriate posts deleted (if they are still there)?

wilmark johnatty

YOu should review the scientific literature over the past 60 years on heart disease/cholesterol/sat fat etc. Most of the material on your website are based on common medical dogmas. I suggest Paul Attias video reviewing most of the science on this – quite enlightening.

Toxins

The literature over the past 60 years clearly links cholesterol and heart disease. There is no disconnect. Books and bloggers are not scientific resources.

wilmark johnatty

Books and bloggers like you are not science – even if they have an MD. I have reviewed the science from most of the major studies from the nonsense that Ancil Keys put out in the 40’s to the Framingham to Jupiter etc. The results don’t support the continued dogma that you site is propagating. I urge your readers to study these findings instead of looking to authorities to explain them. Funny you would use the word disconnect. Thats exactly what it is.

Annoyed by Paleofraud

Gratuitous assertions may be gratuitously denied; consider yourself denied. BTW If you mean billionaire funded low carb spokesperson Peter Attia [I have no idea who Paul Attias is], and you are into videos on the subject, you should check out Plant Positive’s takedown at http://www.plantpositive.com/a-very-serious-low-carber-nusi/

Annoyed by Paleofraud

Peter Attia’s blogging is apparently a stunning success: “What
could be a better outcome for a blog than to have a bunch of uneducated low
carbers out there thinking they know more than their doctors about the one
aspect of low carb most likely to kill them?” — Plant Positive, http://www.plantpositive.com/a-very-serious-low-carber-nusi/

Lauren Remington

Or those who don’t know that plants are carbohydrates which is technical for “sugar water”. You always have some stupid vegan with no education in biology who believes they know everything. lol They believe sugar water is the key to health. Yeah, talk to the rats in the laboratories. As for knowing more than doctors…the average sixth grader probably knows more. They get all their info from pharm reps. What a maroon. lol

Lauren Remington

Toxins show me this research you refer to. I have access to pubmed. To my knowledge and I keep on this, there has never been a double blind study which conclusively related cholesterol to heart disease. Do you even know why you have cholesterol in your blood? It’s part of your immune system. It’s there to repair damage. If you have it, it’s because the arteries are already damaged. But if you have real research I don’t know about, please share it. Preferably something not funded by pharm companies who are selling cholesterol medicine. lol

Toxins

“Given the capability of all tissues to synthesize sufficient amounts of cholesterol for their metabolic and structural needs, there is no evidence for a biological requirement for dietary cholesterol. Therefore, neither an Adequate Intake nor a Recommended Dietary Allowance is set for cholesterol. There is much evidence to indicate a positive linear trend between cholesterol intake and low density lipoprotein cholesterol concentration, and therefore increased risk of coronary heart disease (CHD). A Tolerable Upper Intake Level is not set for cholesterol because any incremental increase in cholesterol intake increases CHD risk.”

There has been many many studies showing the strong relationship between serum cholesterol and heart disease. The 7 countries study, after 40 years, still shows the strong relationship between serum cholesterol and heart disease.

We know that inflammation leads to the oxidation of cholesterol which leads to plaque. Several videos on this website have shared studies showing how eggs and animal based foods lead to this inflammation.

I have a suspect optic nerve and am fifty five. I have been taking coconut oil of the spoon for a few days and my eyes have improved. So did my mood/ I am furious curious cancer survivor on google.

Ruby

I wish there were some research on eating coconut meat, since the refining process as you say guts the essentials of the fruit from which the oils are extracted, and to me this seems the reason that these oils are not so great – because they are extracted from their natural, edible environ – and not because the oils themselves are bad. All this talk and “research” of oils being bad seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater and nothing more, period. I think our nerves need the oils and that a society that eats bad one and howver extratceted ones may have a LOT to do with neurological and other nerve disorderes(I think psychological as well – and in so saying I am seaking to civilization and every on eof us in it)

PM

i was wondering about vegan or near vegan butter substitutes. For example Earth Balance organic. Are they healthy?

Ohhh we’re all going to die! No one gets to stay forever. Coconut oil tastes better than other oils e basta! It’s nice to feel good – but in the end – genetics win out. Just live, people, and quit worrying about all of this.

At the end of the video basically discredits everything. Coconut oil in cupcakes are not extra virgin coconut oil. The key ingredient in extra virgin coconut oil is MCT which promotes HDL which is good for the heart. Or you could ditch coconut oil altogether and use MCT oil. Facepalm.

Lynn

This video and information on coconut oil is very disappointing and just wrong. Coconut oil is good for you…natural…and has no bad side effects. There is no link to coconut oil consumption and heart disease. Pleople have been eating coconut oil since the earth began..it is good for you!! Dr. Mercola has some good articles on coconut oil. Alzheimer’s is an epidemic and Lipitor, ( and the like), are causing this epidemic. Cholesterol is needed in our bodies, especially our brains to function properly. Let’s wake up people. The bad fats and are the man made vegetable oils, (Crisco, wesson…), and the meats that are raised wrong, (i.e. GMO Corn, Soy, antibiotics, ground animal, etc.). That’s what we need to watch out for …not coconut oil for goodness sake. Coconut oil is a good food…I eat alot…have for years and have no health problems.

I had acne in my face for a long time, and i was so angry about it, days after, i was surfing in the internet, i just found some useful products one of them is Coconut oil for acne, i tried it , and i can proudly say, i don’t have acne in my face anymore, i want to help other people to try it.
Thank you

When people are in the act of losing weight, their LDLs naturally go up. All of this talk about cholesterol levels in moot. Inflammation is key. Research does not agree with Dr. Gregor’s conclusions. Rarely do they. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22030224

Charlie Ross

Does coconut oil saturated fat get absorbed into the bloodstream when topically applied?

Lauren Remington

That is the funnies video I’ve seen. Thank you for sharing. Sounds like vegan crap to me. Never take a class in biology but they know everything there is to know about medicine. lol Coconut oil can not clog arteries. Do you know why you have cholesterol in the blood? Because there is damage in the arteries. Cholesterol is part of the immune system. Translation: Cholesterol comes in to heal the damage which is already there. If you continue to damage the arteries then the Cholesterol will continue to try to repair the body. To say Cholesterol or Coconut damages or clogs the arteries, is like saying the trucks they send out to repair the potholes caused the potholes. Most medical doctors receive their education from pharm reps. Rarely do they go beyond that. Sometimes they go to read the abstract. Extremely rarely do they actually read the study. And even rarer do they understand what they’re reading. But if you have pubmed links for me to review, I’d love to see them. It’s this kind of mis-information which is why most people don’t take “medical doctors” seriously.

HungryShrew

I can’t get my head around the polarity of opinion regarding coconut oil.

Greger seems so sure of his opinion and others seem sure of their entirely different view. Both provide numerous link to research.

How can such opposing opinions co-exist?
Isn’t that what research is for, to settle such debates?

I eat a lot of coconut oil, no bread, lots of veg. I’m very lean and feel great, but worried.

The coconut oil proponents do not have good studies to back up their claims. For example, the study on weight loss they constantly circulate has 2 groups of obese women add either canola oil or coconut oil to their diet, they then cut calories and exercise and by the end of the 2 months they lost 2 lbs’. The study concludes that coconut oil can be a means to weight loss, but does that really seem true to you or effective? We must read beyond the conclusions. Also, coconut oil’s saturated fat still contains ~30% long chain fats, so don’t let people tell you its healthy.

leepee

I wonder if EV coconut oil should be very limited-completely avoided by those who have metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and/or hypertension? My brother has diabetes, and consumed coconut oil (moderate amount). He also ate some foods that he shouldn’t. He never had EV coconut oil before, and said that he fell in love with it. This probably means that he was consuming the coconut oil at least once a week. The heart attack happened 3 weeks after his initial consumption of the coconut oil. When I spoke to him, a few days ago, he told me that he had a heart attack. His arteries were clogged. One was 90% clogged. The hospital implanted stents.

Whenever I eat coconut oil ( I also love it) my body reacts strangely, and I get palpitations. I DO take atenolol and hydrochlorothiazide, so there is a (slight) chance that that could be the cause of the palpitations; although, I rarely get them….they occur always when I consume coconut oil, broccoli (perhaps I need my thyroid levels checked….it’s been a while).

Boomer4Health .

There are healthy fats and there are unhealthy fats. Coconut oil is a healthy fat. And we actually
NEED some saturated fat. It would be absurd to associate coconut oil as unhealthy. The vegetable oil industry (i.e. corn, veg, canola, etc) demonized coconut oil decades ago to gain a foothold into the market. So, what do we have now? Many people don’t realize that those “vegetable” oils turn to trans-fats in your arteries when heated. Not to mention that corn oil and canola oil are both
genetically modified (GMO). Not natural.
Corn is actually a grain, not a vegetable. You know, they use corn to fatten up CAFO (concentrated animal feeding operations) cows before slaughter.
If you must eat meat, eat grass-fed ONLY. Olive oil is an option if you don’t heat it up past the smoke point. Great on salads. Unfortunately, many olive oil producers are diluting their oil with other oils. You can look up a list of suspected diluted olive oil producers.

Coconut oil can be heated to high temps without any problem. And it most assuredly can be a part of
a vegan/vegetarian diet. Due to it’s antibacterial and antifungal characteristics, it is probably the healthiest oil for your body. And it’s great to slather on your skin.

Thea

Boomer4Healther: re: “…we actually NEED some saturated fat.” This statement is false if you mean that we need to consume saturated fat. Our bodies make all of the saturated fat that we need. The only essential fats (ie, fats that we need to consume in our diet) are the omega 3s and 6s. Other than that, our bodies make everything we need fat-wise. Not only do our bodies make all of the saturated fat that we need, but consuming saturated fat in our diet is strongly associated with increased health risks.

And if you want a free source to learn details about the scientific evidence against eating saturated fat, I highly recommend the videos from Plant Positive, who has put together a very scholarly work on the subject:http://www.plantpositive.com

Good luck.

Toxins

Well said Thea

DanielFaster

Thea those are great resources. I am amazed how people continue to be shocked when you tell them oil is not a food group, or for that matter neither are carbs, sugar or protein. But particularly fat/oil. They are only constituents of the foods (esp. the whole plant foods most of the people who follow Dr. Greger) will eat. The deconstruction of foods into these ‘food groups’ only serves the interests of the meat, egg, dairy and processed food industries (and the disease treatment machine that relies on the continued future of sick Americans and the fable of the magic bullet for their present business models), protein being code for animal products, fats coding for refined oils, carbs for starchy vegetables and sugary drinks etc. If you don’t argue the whole premise of ‘food groups,’ you’ve already lost – fiber and antioxidants and nature’s packaging can’t even be considered in that framework of course. If you consider food groups to be the types of similar plants, e.g., leafy greens, whole grains, beans, berries, citrus, mushrooms, etc., then the processed foods almost drop out of the picture entirely, e.g. factory meat can be considered as just a highly processed form of the products made by the corn and soybean processors, and coconut oil as an extract of coconut – they may be edible and food-like, but not really food at all.

Coconut oil is useful when used in small amounts as a lubricant when cooking (due to it’s oxidation resistance), but you will do no good things to your health by ingesting it.

However, used topically it is very effective as a moisturizer, lip balm, hair conditioner, and It is claimed to be good for oral health when swished (AKA Oil pulling, though I haven’t seen much clinical data supporting this)

Holy moly… First time (I think) I read this blog and I probably won’t come here again. Do a search on pubmed and find a bunch of articles regarding sd-LDL (small dense LDL) being involved in CVD and CAD. The regular LDL and total cholesterol markers have nothing to do with CVD or CAD. Get yourself updated.
Eat saturated fatty acids. There is not one single study suggesting that SFA’s have anything to do with CVD. SFA raises regular (there are several sub classses) LDL and HDL. SFA’s do not cause small dense LDL. Ergo: No CVD from saturated fat.
Vegetable oil (Omega-6) however causes your arteries to clog.

Sylvie

What about using coconut oil for skin and hair?

Shaylen Snarski

Not a problem at all. It’s good for skin and hair as are other plant oils as well such as avocado, olive oil, etc. You have to ingest it to absorb the fat in that way. That fat is awesome for your skin though, topically. Though healthy fats are very beneficial to skin when you consume them as well.

Susan Louise Ginkel Oroviceanu

I have a question. can using coconut oil on skin raise cholesterol? I never eat any oil but do use coconut oil on my hair and skin every day. I really hope I get an answer on this

Joseph Gonzales R.D.

Good question. No, I really don’t think so ;) I use it on my skin as well and find it soothing. Almond oil is another one I have heard is helpful for skin.

Best wishes,
Joseph

Shaylen Snarski

Definitely not, you have to ingest it from everything I read… I used to be paranoid about this as I use tons of plant oils for skin care and went through a paranoia stage about fat lol. Anyways, I’m fit and healthy and have been using it on skin for a long time now. My soap is made out of it too!

Pam

Hi, can you address whether and how the addition of coconut oil can decrease the caloric load of white rice (see blurb below)? And is it a particular kind of white rice? Does this same science have the same effect on brown rice composition?

Method of cooking rice can actually cut calories

Rice is a staple in many places around the world, but given its content of both starch and calories, it’s not necessarily a healthy one.

Scientists from Sri Lanka have figured out a way to lessen the weight gain-inducing effects of the popular grain, and it involves a cooking technique that’s simple enough to do at home. That trick is, as explained by one of the researchers, “… when the water is boiling, before adding the raw rice, we added coconut oil—about 3 percent of the weight of the rice you’re going to cook. After it was ready, we let it cool in the refrigerator for about 12 hours. That’s it.”

Why it works is a matter of how the approach switches up the composition of the grain. When prepared conventionally, rice is primarily made up of starches that are easily digestible and thus quickly transformed into glucose, then glycogen and ultimately fat. The scientists’ preparation method turns part of that starch into matter the body can’t process, thus diminishing its undesirable effects. By how much varies based on the type of the grain used, but caloric reductions could be as high as 60 percent .

KPLindsey, NF Moderator

It isn’t the coconut oil that is responsible for the calorie reduction, but the cooling of the rice. Cooling the rice slowly for a long time after cooking causes the starch in the rice to reform gradually over the 12 hour refrigeration period into a new conformation that renders it much less digestible to humans.

Matthew Smith

No. The number one grocery product sold, the saturated fat which is a required way of saying good, because its small on the nutrition label would raise cholesterol. Saturated fats might be the good fats. Is there a good fat? Let’s try to see if there is a yes to fact that my first guess is yes.

Matthew Smith

sold at amazon.gom grocery

Matthew Smith

Is their a good fat? Was their a good animal?

Shaylen Snarski

Lots of good and important fats derived from plant sources. No such thing as good animal fats. Sometimes omega-3’s and 6 can be found in animal flesh and secretions BUT they come with more bad than good. There are also transfats in animal products which are extremely dangerous. Transfats are only found in animals but modern science created them by hydrogenating plant oils as well, so also stay away from HYDROGENATED vegetable oils.

Shaylen Snarski

Absolutely there are good fats! Fats are essential! Omega-3’s and omega-6’s are essential fats as our bodies don’t create them on their own, but in the western world, we overwhelm our bodies with omega-6’s so we’re not getting enough omega-3’s which is the most important.
Dr. Greger suggests eating flax for this reason, and on a daily basis. You can incorporate it almost anywhere. For pregnant and nursing women, I’ve heard him recommend a plant based DHA supplement which is from algae (that’s where fish get it from in the first place) but a lot of the algae DHA supplements are so impure, sadly, but I take OmegaZen pure DHA for that reason as it has completely pure ingredients and is palm oil free which is not only a good thing for health, but ethical reasons.

Stay away from animal fats though! Transfats (only found in animal fats and hydrogenated oils) are deadly and scientific studies have concluded that there is no safe amount of transfats for human consumption, therefore we should not be eating animal flesh and secretions.

Surfer2u2015

What about eating whole coconut; meaning coconut as a whole food as a vegan?

Shaylen Snarski

There have been and are civilizations who consume coconuts daily and are very healthy. I’m a vegan and eat a really healthy diet and would personally have no problem eating coconuts! In fact, if I had access to organic coconuts, I’d definitely incorporate whole coconut into my diet! I guess if someone is watching cholesterol they should maybe be careful… but if someone were concerned they could just get their levels checked.

Rick

If coconut has saturated fat, and using saturated fat is risky, what about MCT’s sold in Health Food Stores?

Joseph Gonzales R.D.

Good question. I don’t think healthy individuals need MCT oil. MCT fats tend to go into formulas when folks cannot eat by mouth (cannot obtain any fat). A bit of nuts and seeds (perhaps coconut flakes) will give you all the fat needed.

Surfer2u2015

Anyone on eating whole coconut?

Joseph Gonzales R.D.

Better than consuming the oil or the milk, as more concentrated sources of fat without the fiber. I little coconut goes a long way. I’d scale back or avoid if cholesterol is an issue. Thanks for reposting this.

Shaylen Snarski

I heard that we need some saturated fat… is this true? The only plant sources I know of is coconut and palm, but palm is horrible due to ethical reasons including animal cruelty, devastation to the planet and rainforests, and human rights issues, plus from everything I read, palm is known to raise LDL and has carcinogenic compounds (possibly when heated, I don’t remember exactly).

Dr. Greger also mentions this in one of his very old talks on youtube. Someone might be able to find that link if you are interested.

Jen

The only essential macros are fat and protein, the body can make all the glucose it needs.

Therefore there’s no reason to eat carbohydrates… right?

Thea

Jen: I don’t know if that’s true. What I do know is that the healthiest diets are primarily made up of carbohydrates. Diets low in carbohydrates consistently lead to bad health in study after study. (Not that you can’t find a study that says otherwise. What I’m talking about is the body of evidence–in the same vein that the body of evidence shows that smoking is bad for you even though there are over 100 studies showing the opposite.) So, your assertion may be true in some twisted technical sense (I don’t now either way), but it is not true in any sense that any person would assume you mean upon first reading.
.
Meanwhile, when it comes to saturated fat, the science shows us, the less the better. Check out this NutritionFacts video just for starters: http://nutritionfacts.org/video/trans-fat-saturated-fat-and-cholesterol-tolerable-upper-intake-of-zero/

Jen

I’m pretty up to date on the data and I’ve not seen this “study after study” that you mention. I notice that a huge segment of data never gets represented here so maybe that is what leads to your perception.

With regard to the carbs, the relevant point is that if we’re going to accept that the fact that body makes something means we don’t newsboys I eat it, this must be applied across the board to include carbohydrate.

Wouldn’t you say

Thea

Jen: re: ” I’ve not seen this “study after study” that you mention.” Keep watching and reading on NutritionFacts and you will soon be educated!

Jen

Thea,

I find that Dr. Greger doesn’t present all of the relevant data so he creates a false impression of the current science. I subscribe to his videos and I’ve still not seen ‘study after study’ demonstrating that diets low in carbohydrate consistently lead to bad health, in fact the majority appear to show the very opposite. I’m open to learning if you can cite some of those studies. Maybe you’ve seen something I haven’t.

You didn’t address the discussion about using the body’s ability to create nutrients as a way to refute their potential benefit in our diets. Do you believe this is still valid criteria?

Thea

Jen: I think the hundreds of videos, supported by many hundreds more of studies, on this site paint the correct picture about the body of evidence showing that low carbohydrate diets lead to bad health. You can specifically look up the videos on the topics of atkins and paleo plus videos related to the topics of carbohydrates and fiber. And then you can look at the flip side and look at the videos that talk about the Okinawan diet etc. If interested in this topic, I would also highly recommend Dr. Greger’s book on Atkins Exposed and also the work that Plant Positive has done. I believe Dr. Greger’s book is available for free. But as for me combing through all those sources and finding studies for you, I don’t feel obligated to to all that work for you. The references are all there if you want to look and it’s more than can fit in a forum post. If I tried to put an abbreviated list in a forum post, we would start going down the path of dueling studies and that’s not productive.

Since you really want an answer: I did not re-address your point in my second post, because while I feel that I fully understand the point you are making, I felt by your reply that you did not understand my reply. And since I don’t know how to explain it any better than I did the first time, there is nowhere to go in the conversation. I think you are very wrong, but I don’t know what other words I could use to explain how. I can see why you think the way you do. Your logic is just not a reflection of what reality appears to be. I’m sorry, but at this point, that’s all I have to say on the matter.

Jen

Thea,

I think you didn’t understand -my- point. I’m not arguing for low carbohydrate diets. You don’t seem to be hearing me. Dr. Greger only provides -half- the data, the half that demonizes animal food. Even McGill University’s website calls him out for this. I try to look at -all- of the data, not just what he points to. I could read and watch Dr. Greger for the next week straight, 24/7, and I’d still not get a balanced picture. This is why I asked you for evidence. I’m already here, I don’t need to be pointed to where I already am. What I find here is -not- “study after study” and saying look it up yourself is not the right thing to do when you made the assertion to begin with.

But even so, my point is that if you believe that a high carb diet is healthy even though the body can make all the glucose it needs, you cannot use the “the body makes all it needs” argument to demonize anything else with any integrity. Either it’s relevant that the body makes all it needs or it’s not.

Shaylen Snarski

Dr. Greger is so incredibly up to date and well educated on the science of nutrition. He tells the truth and doesn’t filter it with the endemic nonsense. Take for example, the fact that the National Academy of Science concluded that the only safe allowance of transfats for humans, is ZERO. There are no safe doses of transfats. Animal flesh (and secretions) is the only thing that contains transfats other than hydrogenated vegetable oils. So when questioned on why they weren’t telling people to stop eating meat (and animals in general) when they published that humans should NOT consume any amounts of transfats, one of the publishers of the study responded that that would be too extreme to tell people to give up meat (and animal products in general). So instead of being clear cut science… they were bending to appease the public! And don’t be fooled… I’m sure they were bending extra backwards in order to not upset the multibillion dollar animal agriculture industry.

Shaylen Snarski

I imagine a diet without carbohydrates would result in a quick death, and in fact, have! All plant foods are carbohydrates and plant foods are what we’re designed to survive on as well as thrive on.

Jen

Carbohydrate is the only non-essential macro and people eat carb-free diets with good health regularly. You’ve never seen anyone die from a lack of dietary carbohydrate. Glucose is easily produced by the body in gluconeogenesis. Otherwise, you’d die in the night.

Shaylen Snarski

Thanks Thea! I appreciate it!

Joseph Gonzales R.D.

Many foods, even vegetables and fruits, have small amounts of fat so naturally there is some in the form of saturated fat. Nuts and seeds have a bit more, but not compared to the oils you mentioned or meat and cheese. The idea is keeping saturated fat low. The Institute of Medicine says to keep saturated fats “as low as possible while consuming a nutritionally adequate diet” and Dr. G has loads insightful videos on saturated fat that’s much more helpful than my comment. I have an update on coconut oil here. In short, don’t need it or palm oil and better off without.

Shaylen Snarski

Thanks! Great info and I’ll check out the video! The world would certainly be a more sustainable place without all the reliance on extracted oils.

Shaylen Snarski

There have been and are civilizations who regularly eat coconut and are very healthy. I say trust in plant foods! Maybe not always the extracted oil depending on the type. I’m a very healthy eater and vegan so I would have no problem scarfing down a coconut if the mood struck me… and if I had a coconut lol.

Sara

I’ve been wondering, if a young girl is on a vegan diet, should she only consume whole plant fats to meet her fat need? Would consuming oil negatively effect her health, or would it just make up for the amount of fat she needs to eat?

2tsaybow

You can get healthy fat from nuts, and whole plant foods. Those would be the best sources for a growing person. A really good place to look at ways to meet dietary needs is PCRM.org. I would also bet that Dr. Greger’s new book, which will be released in December will have some pretty specific dietary information. Also, go to forksoverknives.org and look at the list of contributors to the articles. There are some great authors, and professionals that also have websites.
You don’t need to consume oil. Eat almonds instead.

Shaylen Snarski

I’d give her flax… put it in her cereal etc. It’s so healthy and has an incredible amount of healthy fats, namely omega-3’s which are so lacking in the western world. I would absolutely use extra-virgin olive oil on salads, they help with absorption of nutrients and have incredible benefits and you don’t need much. Tomatoes, I read for example, when eaten raw are better to have with olive oil or fat in general because based on what I read, we don’t absorb the lycopene from raw tomatoes eaten alone (we do from cooked though!), but when consumed with fat (olive oil was used in this study) the lycopene was absorbed from raw tomatoes.
And I’d PERSONALLY probably give her a vegan DHA supplement from algae since she’s growing. I’m in my 20’s and I take one just because I think it’s a good idea for anyone. I recommend OmegaZen DHA as it has the most pure ingredients and is palm oil free which is an industry that is so cruel and such an epidemic that I don’t even consider it vegan myself, plus it’s unhealthy.

Jerry Nissen

As Dr. Greger points out, the issue is complicated and not yet fully decided… But Dr. Greger certainly casts some doubts as to whether coconut oil is “beneficial” for a diseased heart. Can someone please post some recent, non-biased (not commercially sponsored) medical studies to simply debate the pro and con issues? This is important for people such as I who died of cardiac infarction a few years ago, and was fortunately resuscitated. For us, it’s a “life issue” not an interesting debate!! Thanks for any feedback.

Shaylen Snarski

Can’t help you with that but I’d watch his lecture here for some incredible insight (it’s from 2002 so more was discovered since, but some vital to know heart health info is in this lecture, it is so worth the hour!). The title here is misleading, I think you will be very happy you watched. My dad has had a heart attack and I’m having him watch this as well as others, it’s just vital info that you don’t hear anywhere else and all non-biased published science. Best of luck and hope you find what you’re looking for!

It is not clear to me if I put 4 days supply of your Daily Dozen in the food processor for convenience, whether or not this is as beneficial from a phytonutrient point of view. If not, how much less than processing it fresh each day.

Zj

Dr Greger, if coconut oil clogs arteries what about pure MCT oil from the health food store? Is this a healthy alternative?

VegEater

No oils are healthy. Dr. Greger has shown that consuming any kind of oil damages our arteries. Nuts are a healthy form of fat.

Shaylen Snarski

There are absolutely healthy oils! Flax oil, but it’s very sensitive and doesn’t store well. Hemp oil. Olive oil (scientifically shown to be beneficial time and time again… the Mediterranean diet proves this alone). To say there are no healthy oils is sheer opinion and misleading. Most oils commonly used for cooking are not healthy when you weigh out the bad with the good.

Thea

Shaylen: Oils are like sugar, but worse. You can see why below. But for starters: NutritionFacts/Dr Greger recommends a whole plant food based diet, which naturally includes fat. But this site does not recommend oil as a health food. Here are Dr. Greger’s nutrition recommendations:http://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/12/dr-gregers-2011-optimum-nutrition-recommendations/
And if you search, you can see some videos that address say olive oil. Olive oil does not look so good when you look at the studies. You should also check out the videos on NutritionFacts concerning the Mediterranean diet. Flax oil is just oil from flax=a highly processed food devoid of pretty much anything but fat. Eat the flax, not the flax oil.

Nuts and seeds on the other hand are whole plant foods that have lots of fat in them. Dr. Greger has a bunch! of videos showing that nuts and seeds are health-promoting foods. (Especially check out videos on flax). I seem to recall that Dr. Greger recommends about the same amount of nuts/seeds that other respected nutrition experts recommends, about 1 to 2 ounces a day. So, not a large part of a diet. But definitely part of a healthy diet.

Put Another Way: So, are oils really out?!? Say it isn’t so! Here is how I put this into perspective. Jeff Novick has a GREAT talk called “From Oil to Nuts”. (I highly recommend it.) Part of that video is available free on youtube. The following clip compares olive oil to sugar.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbALgjmZUek

This comparison really helped me. While I understand that it is best to avoid sugar, that doesn’t mean that I never eat sugar. I just try to limit sugar as best I can. A person who occasionally eats some sugary treats or a sauce with sugar in it is probably going to be fine. I just don’t kid myself that sugar is healthy. That’s my personal decision, and I take the same approach for oils. I don’t think a *tiny* amount of oil would really hurt me in the context of a truly healthy whole plant food based diet. Personally, I try to limit oils to desserts since it is so easy to get rid of oil from main dishes. I don’t need it for my veggies.

Here’s one more sort-of reference that might help. I can’t find the actual page, but I remember seeing a page where Jeff Novick directly addressed this question about needing fat to absorb all the nutrients from vegetables. I think he made some good points and one of them was something like (if I remember correctly): that we don’t have to maximize the plant nutrients from every bit if all we are eating is plants. Then we will get enough nutrients. We don’t need more than ‘enough’.

Shaylen Snarski

I have to disagree with you based on the many things I’ve learned and continue to learn as well as mine and others personal experiences. I actually learned the most about people on the Mediterranean diet, who are some of the absolute healthiest people in the world, from watching lectures from Dr. Greger.
Including some amount of healthy oils in the diet actually helps with nutrient absorption. Your salad will be healthier for it. We don’t even absorb the main antioxidant in tomatoes when eaten raw, unless we consume it with fat. Studies show that consuming raw tomatoes with extra virgin olive oil allows you to absorb the lycopene. That’s just one example.
Just like there are people who advocate a completely raw diet, there are people who think we should be completely oil free.
Healthy oils are in no way like refined sugar. I wouldn’t even know where to begin.
I enjoy reading a lot of your posts here but have to disagree with you on this one. I’d share my sources and go into more detail but I’ve already been online too way too long (this site is addicting!) and I’d have to go dig up those sources as I don’t safe all of them. Plus I think we’re both pretty confident in our perspectives based on our findings so it seems mildly redundant.
I’m a very healthy person and I consume hemp oil and extra virgin olive oil and it sounds like you’re a very healthy person as well. I think oil is beneficial but not necessary, that I do agree with absolutely.
I do tend to like to get “extra” nutrients in todays world though, with all the pollutants and the sad soil conditions and such. But I do think you can do that without consuming oil, no arguments in that regard.

Thea

Shaylen: I wanted to reply to your addendum about algae oil, but it looks like you deleted that particular post. Is that true? (I’m asking because I’m trying to figure out if someone else could have deleted your post or if you deliberately deleted the post yourself.)
.
But to reply in general: As you say, Dr. Greger does recommend people consider taking algea oil, but only as a supplement/pill form for a specific purpose. It’s a very small amount, like about 1/2 teaspoon I think. In other words, Dr. Greger does not recommend oil as food. Of course, you are free to disagree on the topic of oil. I appreciate your respectful reply. But if you ever decide to review that 5 minute video I linked to, I would be curious to hear what you think. I would also be curious to hear what you think of Dr. Greger’s videos on this site about olive oil and coconut oil. FYI: Dr. Greger labels oils as yellow light foods in his book, How Not To Die. For yellow light foods: If you are going to eat something less than maximally healthy, make it count and pamper yourself and truly relish it. So, I say to you (with all sincerity), I hope you enjoy your olive oil! I tend to pamper myself with desserts that I really like. (Too much really.)
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My 2 cents are: The important thing is that you are healthy as you say. Since oil is like sugar (I know you disagree with this), having some small amounts of oil is not going to hurt anyone in the context of an otherwise healthy whole plant food diet.

Jen

Saturated fats do -not- clog arteries. The idea that arteries even get “clogged” is a myth, but arterial plaques are made up of three quarters polyunsaturated fats, not saturated fats.

Wow… and I’ve always heard and read that coconut oil has no negative effect on cholesterol like other saturated fats and even results in weight loss… All these fake or cherry picked studies they’re putting out, leaving out vital information, truly makes me livid… not only for me but to think about all the people out there trying to be healthy and they’re being lied to!… I think I’ll probably occasionally cook with coconut oil as I’m really good in this regard (I’m a vegan who eats a whole foods diet rich in lots of raw organic produce daily). I like olive oil for salad dressings but don’t like that it can go rancid at a certain heat level and know that coconut oil is better for this. Lately I’ve been hearing a lot about avocado oil and how incredibly heat stable it is. I rarely cook with oils but I do on occasion… the thing that bothers me about avocado oil is the high levels of omega-6… so if anyone knows a lot about omega-3 to omega-6 ratios and cooking oils wants to weigh in on what they think is best, please do share!

Jem

I’m really not understanding this article. Is it using old data? There is no association between saturated fat consumption and heart disease. There have been several massive studies that have come to this same conclusion in more recent years. Research has shown that saturated fats don’t clog arteries. Dietary Cholesterol is also harmless. I’m really curious as to what you based your information on.

Thea

Jem: There are some studies *claiming* that saturated fat and dietary cholesterol are unrelated to heart disease, but these studies are fatally flawed and overshadowed by the massive evidence linking both saturated fat and dietary cholesterol to heart disease. You can learn more on this site, including clicking the ‘sources cited’ buttons to the right of the videos in order to see the studies referenced. http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/saturated-fat/
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Also, someone else recently posted about similar confusions that you have, and I put together a post with links that explain/show exactly how the studies you may be thinking of are flawed/invalid. You can learn more here: http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/03/22/the-effects-of-dietary-cholesterol-on-blood-cholesterol/#comment-2644077343 If you want a very scholarly and in-depth look at this issue of studies claiming that saturated fat and dietary cholesterol are harmless, check out the work on the site: http://www.PlantPositive.com. You will learn a whole lot there.

Jem

Sorry, but the information clearly suggest otherwise. Old dogmas are being challenged and are being found to be wrong.

Still talking about BAD cholesterol? Although sweet and simple always do the job. The information in this video about coconut oil is pretty worthless. Unfortunately.

Robert Andrew

Thank you for your informative videos on coconut oil. There is so much
conflicting information on the internet. Please could you look at the
link below and find out why they are promoting coconut oil so much.

I was so confused with the subject of saturated fat, DR. Esselstyn say’s NO OIL, Dr. Hyman say’s Eat Fat, Get Thin. Both of them are associated with the Cleveland Clinic. I see there are over 300 comments on this subject which started 3 years ago, so I went to the end and found a video I thought would help. It did not. I’m only interested in my health, not getting thin. Here we are in 2016, is there any conclusion?
I found some thing from Dr. McDougall on starch which adds to the confusion. I am borderline diabetic, not horrible but 6.2 A1c. I had triple bypass surgery 15 years ago and was told to watch carbohydrates, so I want to just want to get a normal glucose. How can having more oil help me? Still confused, I think I’ll try Dr. McDougall’s way. Wish me luck, I don’t have alot of time at age 82.

Jack

Those criticizing coconut oil are trying to protect their own businesses or economy.

Example ;

During these last 60 years, America blasted the propaganda of Coconut Oil is bad for health to promote their own Soya Oil and Corn Oil.

In the last 60 years American levels of heart disease, obesity, elevated serum cholesterol and Alzheimer’s have skyrocketed.

While multiple studies on Pacific Island populations who get 30-60 percent of their total caloric intake from fully saturated coconut oil have all shown nearly non-existent rates of cardiovascular disease.
What more evidence do you need!!!!
Forget the technical and clinical bullshit designed by the Interested Parties to favour their own product.

Matt

Could you make a video about eating whole food coconut? I think we have established that the oils are bad and that is certainly the craze and the rage right now. Is there any research regarding coconut flakes or shredded coconut products? One would assume that something similar to eating whole olives instead of olive oil would happen. I’m curious as to the unique nature of the saturated fat in coconut and how our digestive system’s ability to break it down and absorb it from the whole food matrix of nutrients impacts us, HDL and LDL, etc.

Rosalie Starr

Pardon me if this is a double post. The first one disappeared, most likely b/c of the youtube link. So will just say to please search YT for Dr. Mary Newport’s videos on how coconut oil reversed her husband’s Alzheimer’s. If time is a problem, the one I posted is only 6 min. A pretty amazing story – especially about his drawing of a clock and how it changed within 24 hours.
After learning about coconut oil and ketones and how they are a backup energy source for the brain, I began taking a tablespoon a day in my morning oatmeal. I have noticed far fewer “senior moments” since doing this regimen. Also, no more drowses in the afternoon. I’m 73, in otherwise good health and have been a vegetarian for 30 years. Have a great day. :)

Sathy

Hi,
Is sesame oil good for health? If so what illness it can help with?

Traginot

Can topically applied coconut oil cause high cholesterol?

My LDL is 193. I am not overweight, do not eat junk food, exercise daily, eat few animal products. I use approximately 1 tablespoon coconut oil every day as a moisturizer.

Is it possible the coconut oil is being absorbed through my skin and raising my cholesterol level? I googled this and could not find a definitive answer. There is apparently a study out there that concludes that rubbing sesame seed oil on babies makes them gain weight.

Thanks.

Tom Goff

It may be possible that this raises blood lipid levels in newborn babies. In adults, I don’t know.
” Fatty acid profiles (gas chromatography) showed significant rise in EFAs (linolenic acid and arachidonic acid) in safflower oil group and saturated fats in coconut oil group.”http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16269830

danicapitani

What are the health differences between cold pressed raw extra virgin and refined?

plantypants

Does topical coconut oil have any affect on cholesterol? I’ve read that PrimalLifeOrganics and 100 Percent Pure have the cleanest products, where the body moisturizers from both of these two companies are primarily saturated-fat based. With a coconut oil based deodorant and lotion, I’ll likely be applying over 20 grams of saturated fat to my skin. Does this have any affect at all on blood lipids?

Is there actually any oil that is good for you? What is the best oil to use?

Cody

Hi, I am a volunteer for Dr. Greger. Oils, which are not whole foods, tend to have adverse effects on the function of our arteries. While extra virgin olive oil appears to be the healthiest oil if one feels that they absolutely need to use oils, no oil at all would be best. For a fat source in meals, avocados, nuts, or seeds offer a plethora of health benefits, so trying to incorporate those whole plant foods would be an excellent idea. Here are a couple good videos, the first on olive oil and artery function, and the second comparing extra virgin olive oil to nuts.

Would love to know if there have been any studies done on the absorption of calories through the skin from applying oils topically for dry skin treatment (coconut, marula, date seed, argan, etc). Is the caloric absorption significant enough to be concerned, especially if someone is doing their best to avoid eating oils because they are not whole plant foods? Are there certain oils whose calories aren’t absorbed as readily, etc. Thank you!!

The only study I have seen was in neonates, but they have different characteristics to adults that may explain their results. You could always try a controlled trial on yourself! Stop it for a month and see if your weight or lipid levels change!

is there any information on coconut butter? I would think it’s a healthy option but i would like to know for sure. thanks

NFModeratorKatie

Coconut butter is made up of shredded, unsweetened coconut – unlike coconut oil which is made from the extracted fat of the coconut meat. Here’s a video from our archives that might be helpful:Is Coconut Milk Good For You?

In my opinion, I wouldn’t say coconut butter is completely “off limits”, nor would I make a habit of using it frequently. Since coconut is naturally high in saturated fat, it’s best to limit your intake to small portions. Hope this helps!

Hello nice Katie, can I ask a question in addional? Dr. Greger speaks always from studies on coconut oil… what I think to have learned over the time is – some rafined (indistriell) produkts are more or less unhealthy. Whole grains are better then white flour, sunflower seeds are better then sunflower oil because always there is something removed.
So I’m wondering waht about whole coconuts? Don’t hit me but some years ago I read a article who claimed that it is poosible to stay alive only by consuming coconuts… and by this way, what is true on the hype of “green coconut water”?
Thank you for your time in advance… Steffen