I beg to differ. I saw one break with my own eyes years ago. The stitching ripped under normal body weight loading, with the subject thankfully already in close proximity to the ground. Older harness, no sharp edges, no known chemicals in contact with the harness. All identical harnesses in that particular gear cache were immediately retired/destroyed. While I don't disagree about the triaxial loading considerations of bypassing a belay loop with a carabiner, I remain wary of belay loops in general.

I beg to differ. I saw one break with my own eyes years ago. The stitching ripped under normal body weight loading, with the subject thankfully already in close proximity to the ground. Older harness, no sharp edges, no known chemicals in contact with the harness. All identical harnesses in that particular gear cache were immediately retired/destroyed. While I don't disagree about the triaxial loading considerations of bypassing a belay loop with a carabiner, I remain wary of belay loops in general.

I would like to hear more about this. What brand, construction, age, etc...

"Left-handed ascender for the Frog System when taking large steps with a too-short footloop 'cuz your footloop broke in-cave 'cuz it was made of braided gum wrappers or shrunk because wet squirrel leather or maybe you just made it too short in the first place but any way you look at it we're talking about gear-based human error mitigation taken to a silly place."

Scott McCrea wrote:I would like to hear more about this. What brand, construction, age, etc...

Good question. I can tell you the year was 1990, and it happened in New Zealand. I vaguely recall being told the harness was 5 years old, but can't remember any other specifics. I did find a photo which I think is the same type of harness (but not the actual one that failed), with the figure-8 descender attachment carabiner shown bypassing the blue belay loop and clipped directly into the waist loop and leg loops.

I am certainly not advocating for a widespread mistrust of belay loops on modern harnesses, but it tends to stick in the mind when one personally witnesses a piece of gear unexpectedly fail.

hank moon wrote:...and that myth goes more like,

"Left-handed ascender for the Frog System when taking large steps with a too-short footloop 'cuz your footloop broke in-cave 'cuz it was made of braided gum wrappers or shrunk because wet squirrel leather or maybe you just made it too short in the first place but any way you look at it we're talking about gear-based human error mitigation taken to a silly place."

I do actually feel bad when I see ruined trees. I never worry about protecting trees when I cave or climb though, since I'm never at a popular spot. The trees I rig to are going to be used by myself and whoever is with me, until we are done surveying or exploring, and that's probably all the stress that tree will see for a few years or decades. So I should have said "gently skinned tree".