Oh, Bella DEFINITELY takes advantage of his selflessness. Just like he, sometimes, takes advantage of her lust/breathlessness over him. It's one of the sticking points that, for me, makes their relationship not so great as it seems on the surface.

I feel like they can't communicate openly with each other very well. I feel like Bella spends too much time being dazzled by him to communicate her wants and needs and when she does, Edward has a serious stubborn streak combined with a bit of arrogance that makes her words fall on deaf ears. I think Edward "knows what's best for Bella" and does them, and then rather than fight it out with her afterward on the rare occasion that it's either wrong or something she doesn't like, he pretties up his words (or his bedroom) to distract her.

But Bella is no better. Edward can't communicate HIS own needs because Bella can't hear any sort of criticism.

HOFJ, I completely agree with you. A relationship can't work without communication. It seems that whenever one of them starts to hear something they don't like they use their own way of getting out of it. Edward dazzles her and she freaks out. I personally don't understand how they made anything work without being able to communicate better.

But, in my opinion, there are plenty of examples of situations where they do communicate with each other, talk things over, compromise, or stand firm on what they want and need. We've talked about several of them on this and other threads;~ Bella & Edward's discussion of Edward's decision to leave.~ Bella's decision to put her mortality up for a vote.~ Edward & Bella's discussion of the safety or lack thereof in hanging out with the pack.~ Edward & Bella's ongoing discussion of the circumstances of her transformation.~ Bella & Edward's discussion of his/her participation in the newborn battle.~ Bella & Edward's discussion of the wedding with the rest of the family.~ Bella's ongoing insistence on carrying and giving birth to Renesmee.~ Edward & Bella's discussion of the events of the Volturi battle.

I think what bothers some people is that both Edward and especially Bella have a good understanding of what is and isn't important enough to warrant discussion. There are a number of times where both Bella and Edward are really able to understand the other's point of view without discussion, so they don't. There are a number of times when they look at the issue for discussion and just don't see the issue as important enough to warrant any kind of debate. Or, the situation has resolved itself before any discussion is necessary. Also, I think there are many discussions that happen that we are not privy to. Just because we don't read the conversation doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I always see the central element to the growth of Edward & Bella's relationship is that they do learn to communicate and quite well, in my opinion.

Knives wrote:I'll make a longer post later, but I would like to point out that the "he controlled all the kisses for safety reasons" argument is more-or-less negated by A. his statement at the end of New Moon and B. The fact that he's more than willing to sex her up after they are married, but before she is a vampire.

I'm looking forward to your longer post, to see how your arguement will turn out. And like Jazz Girl, I don't know what statement at the end of NM you are referring to. What I saw in the end of NM was Edward declaring his love for Bella. And I saw him angry by how the vote went. Again, him being selfless in not wanting her to be vampire. If he was essentially selfish he would have taken the opportunity to change her. I mean, he would get to keep her forever, never worry about her being so breakable... But still he didn't want it.

And with all do respect, I cannot for the life of me see where you're coming from with the "willing to sex her up". He wasn't at all willing to make love to her. He refused her over and over again. Not because he didn't want to, but because he was afraid that he would hurt her. Again, he is a vampire. His body is hard and strong, plus he has the blood lust in him. Edward just didn't think that he could control himself enough, or at least he couldn't be certain. And he wouldn't take the chance. So he resisted for a long time. He hurt Bella's feelings, she pleaded with him and she tried to seduce him. But still he refused. Edward was a virgin both as a human and as a vampire, so he had no way of knowing how is body and mind would react to such an intimate act. But knowing that he felt everything strongly, he had all reason to be afraid. And so he rejected her attempts. So how you get "willing to sex her up" out of something like that, you really have to explain to me.

Edward does eventually see how much it would mean to Bella to make love with him before her transformation. She's afraid that she won't be able to feel desire for him in a long time as a newborn. And like JG says, he agree's to try. He even says that on the beach:" I said we would try. If I do anything to hurt you, you have to let me know" (paraphrasing). Edward was scared out of his mind by that point. So afraid of hurting her. And if he didn't think it would hurt her feelings so much, I think he would have wanted to bail on the deal. And then spending the night next to her, seeing the bruises, confirms his fears. And he loathes himself for ever agreeing to it. So in my opinion, Edward was against them making love before the change. He had been saying that ever since Twilight. He did it for Bella, not for himself.

Jazz Girl wrote:Once that happens and Edward sees total proof that he is able to make love to Bella without hurting her, that he can love her and keep her safe at the same time, that Bella's faith and trust in him are not misplaced, then yes, he is fully willing to have an intimate relationship with his wife. But only after he knows with absolute certainty that he won't hurt her. [/color]

Exactly. That is the key point. Him getting to the point where he knows he can control himself, and can channel his energy on to other things. Like headboards That's when he can truly accept that sort of intimate relationship. He enjoyed himself the first night, but still he felt awful afterwards. That is not the feelings of a selfish man. It's the feelings of a man who saw himself as the worst monster in the universe.

• Edward lives his live in fear...Fear is one of the more nasty deadly sins, nothing good comes from fear...Any thoughts?

• Edward thinks of himself as selfish. I see this as more a fact than others. In the 90 years leading up to this short period of time (that we see through the filters of Bella, who only wants to see him in a good light) he could be exactly what he states he is. We have little back story on him. He talks about being a killer and his monster just under the surface (See Twilight in the Biology lab) is very much who he is. If we take the filters off, we might see a darker side to Edward, and who he truly is.

• Knives, is right about him being controlling. That is his nature.

• Bella seems to be in a perpetual state of lust. She dazzled, breathless, attacking him sexually and willing to do just about anything to get him on his back, to steal a phrase. The one and only things she really wants is sex form him. If that’s not lustful I just don’t know what is.

• Edward lives his live in fear...Fear is one of the more nasty deadly sins, nothing good comes from fear...Any thoughts?

Um, I think I missed something. What leads you to this point of view?

The Dark Knight wrote:• Edward thinks of himself as selfish. I see this as more a fact than others. In the 90 years leading up to this short period of time (that we see through the filters of Bella, who only wants to see him in a good light) he could be exactly what he states he is. We have little back story on him. He talks about being a killer and his monster just under the surface (See Twilight in the Biology lab) is very much who he is. If we take the filters off, we might see a darker side to Edward, and who he truly is.

Can't disagree with this. We only see him through the rather rose coloured glasses of Bella.

The Dark Knight wrote:• Knives, is right about him being controlling. That is his nature.

Gotta agree with this one. I am not saying it is such a bad thing though.

The Dark Knight wrote:• Bella seems to be in a perpetual state of lust. She dazzled, breathless, attacking him sexually and willing to do just about anything to get him on his back, to steal a phrase. The one and only things she really wants is sex form him. If that’s not lustful I just don’t know what is.

Definitely agree with this one, although I have to say that it is not just Bella. Due to the length of each part of the relationship for Bella it seems very unlikely for me that she could be in anything other than the 'honeymoon' phase of the relationship and ater her change she carries over whatever feeling she had pre-change and so the lust wouldn't go away.

The same goes for Edward in regards to the lust as he has undergone a dramatic change to get him there in the first place and that change is gonna last

• Edward lives his live in fear...Fear is one of the more nasty deadly sins, nothing good comes from fear...Any thoughts?**** Brumfondl wrote: Um, I think I missed something. What leads you to this point of view?

*************Several of the post talk about Edward being afraid to harm Bella, or lose her or what not...The list is lengthy. If you go over the last several pages of comments, multiple times from multiple people that state that WEdward was afarid. Hince Edward is afraid.

Reminds me of another Quotes...

“One Truth”

Fear, fear attracts the fearful, The strong, The weak, The innocent,The corrupt.Fear, fear is my Ally.

**Fear is the path to the dark side.Fear leads to anger.Anger leads to hate.Hate leads to suffering.

***So if we take the two quotes to be true, then Edwards future is all down hill to suffering...Can you see it, Him living in a dark corner of South America in a rat infested attic (Hummm, where have I heard this before). I mean, after Bella Divorces him, takes everything includinge the rest of the Cullens and leaves him with nothing...She even takes the planet according to Bones...

Hmm, I don't really see Edward going out and masacring a whole village of sand people just to get his mother back (ok, maybe killing off the village but his mother has been dead for 90 years and I am pretty sure that he has gotten over it) but I do get the idea.

So, we see fear, (self) loathing and a missed opportunity for visiting Las Vegas. Sounds like a good basis for a movie to me, but I digress.

Ok, so Edward WAS afraid, and I spose that even after the Volturi leave in BD there would always be the nagging suspicion that they would come back to get the Cullens, either as a whole or picking them off one by one, but I am sure that he could push that to the back of his vast mind and focus on happy instead. All his fears for Bella had been dispelled. She sure wasn't going to leave him after the transformation (this IS a love story, remember, 'Bella and Edward get married but it ends in a messy divorce' just ain't gunna sell that well) and his only real worry would be that she might break something off with her super strength (ouchies) so I think fear is pretty much on the back burner by the end there.

(Sorry for the tone of this post but I am in a good mood for some unknown reason... possibly cos I am just reading Bella's first day as a vamp and I really love this part of the books)

The Dark Knight wrote:• Edward thinks of himself as selfish. I see this as more a fact than others. In the 90 years leading up to this short period of time (that we see through the filters of Bella, who only wants to see him in a good light) he could be exactly what he states he is. We have little back story on him. He talks about being a killer and his monster just under the surface (See Twilight in the Biology lab) is very much who he is. If we take the filters off, we might see a darker side to Edward, and who he truly is.

Just a quick comment. When I read MS I felt I got a look inside of Edward's head. That's where his story comes into light. And my impression of him as inherently selfless was made stronger by reading it. It made me see him for who he truly is, without looking at him through Bella's "in love"-eyes. And I don't see a darker Edward without Bella's pov, but I do see an Edward more in pain, and very much aware of the monster inside him. And yes, he does see himself as inherently selfish.

amethyst wrote:Yes! You're absolutely right. In New Moon, he did hurt Bella immensely by thinking it was something that could benefit her. I was thinking mostly of his actions during Eclipse. Thank you for correcting me.

No problem!

I think that Edward's selflessness hurts him mainly because he will always do what he believes is the best thing for Bella. So, in Eclipse, it became allowing her to have this relationship with Jacob, which he knew she needed to have to make an informed decision and because it was something that meant a lot to her. I have to give him an immense amount of credit that after he finally gave up the jailer act, he was so tolerant of her with Jacob. It was the right thing to do, even though it hurt him immensely, and I admire his strength in that, because I wouldn't be able to handle that at all!

I know what you mean! No way could I handle my boyfriend so involved with another girl, not unless I was totally secure which I don't think Edward is with Bella, because he is encouraging her to live and go to college and be human. So we know that he is not blind by love, and its just go to be his love for Bella is so strong that he only wants what makes her happy: define: selflessness. But hofj don't you think maybe that might be one of the reasons that Bella loves him so much? it could be.