Why should I do the hard work? You're the one being defensive. I find it exceptionally easy not to train under any ridiculous symbols. If you don't, well, that's on you. Personal responsibility and all that.

others seem to have an issue with the symbol, so it's on them to show me why it's "wrong" to use it. you seemed to have taken up their cause, so i asked you to explain yourself.

it's too hard? ok.

3/31/2013 11:35am,

Rivington

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist

others seem to have an issue with the symbol, so it's on them to show me why it's "wrong" to use it.

And that's been done. Review the thread. (However, you're incorrect; it isn't on anyone to show you anything, and your personal defensiveness does not represent a failure on their part. It just shows only continuing anxiety over the issue on your part.)

Quote:

you seemed to have taken up their cause, so i asked you to explain yourself.

And that's been done as well. Review the thread.

Here's a little thing I like to call the Grown-Up Test. It's basically something only grown-ups can do. A grown-up can look at a discussion and faithfully describe in his or her own words the sophisticated version of the other side's position without using poisoned-well language or creating a strawman.

For example, as I am a grown-up, I am capable of this. Your position is basically that the Japanese imperial symbol is no more necessarily representative of the evils committed by the Japanese military than the symbol of any other imperial state (and the evils they engage in) or religion, and that military (or other) virtues can and should be fruitfully honored by imperial/hegemonic symbols despite whatever evils the state (or religion) might have committed.

Now all these points have already been tangled with. Read the thread. You may continue to disagree with them, but it is a simple fact that that counterpoints have been raised and you have by turns ignored them or changed your own argument, such as when you ran back and forth as to what the symbol supposedly means when used on the GSP gi.

And now you dare bring your fingers to the keyboard to type:

Quote:

it's too hard? ok.

Congratulations. You have failed the grown-up test. Report to your wife for diapering and make a public clown of yourself no more.

For third parties who might be coming in late, here are the points and counterpoints, grown-up style:

Japanese imperial flag is like US/UK flag—no, imperial Japan is different because it wasalso worse for the Japanese, as opposed to the US/UK, both of whom at least also represent authentic democratic traditions for their own people, if not for the victims of their imperial adventures. Ditto Christianity. Imperial Japan does not have the same dual nature as either the cross of the flags of the US or the UK. (Links go to different posts; Loyalist wants me to repeat the discussions for a third time, apparently, like a baby throwing his rattle to the floor repeatedly to see if mama will keep picking it up.)

GSP's rising sun gi represents post-imperial Japan, which has not invaded anybody in 70 years and which plays a defensive role against China and PDRK—no, clearly the symbol is not being used to represent meek defensiveness.

Okay, revert to the previous argument: only some military people committed atrocities—the flag can represent normal military virtues of individual soldiers, not of the Japanese military—No, Japan was routinely militarily aggressive. And of course the flag represents in the first instance what the flag is supposed to represent, and not what Ming decides he'd like it to in order to keep using it.

Oh yeah, well I use the flag so it's not a problem!—no, well, that is your problem, isn't it?

You won't tell me what the problem is, so I win!—no, you need to learn to read like a grown-up does. (If this doesn't sound like a grown-up variation, well Ming's final post wasn't very grown-up.)

Tada!

/thread

/unsubscribe

3/31/2013 1:32pm,

ChenPengFi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivington

/unsubscribe

Is that like "subscribe"?

4/01/2013 8:45am,

Gezere

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwkfym

Yeah, every time I see a kid whose ancestory is from the pacific rim wearing anything with a rising sun flag a little bit inside me died.

Why?

Just an FYI the Rising Sun flag is still used everywhere in Japan. From newspapers to soft drinks. It is a matter of pride. The US did some horrible things during war time. We don't give a **** we still fly/wear our flag.

4/01/2013 11:35am,

Ming Loyalist

*sigh* OK, i really hoped we were done with this, but oh well...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivington

And that's been done. Review the thread. (However, you're incorrect; it isn't on anyone to show you anything, and your personal defensiveness does not represent a failure on their part. It just shows only continuing anxiety over the issue on your part.)

it wasn't proven to my satisfaction, and i don't think the arguments are convincing... here's why.

Quote:

Here's a little thing I like to call the Grown-Up Test. It's basically something only grown-ups can do. A grown-up can look at a discussion and faithfully describe in his or her own words the sophisticated version of the other side's position without using poisoned-well language or creating a strawman.

ok, great, you fail that test further down when you call me a baby, but OK.

Quote:

For example, as I am a grown-up, I am capable of this. Your position is basically that the Japanese imperial symbol is no more necessarily representative of the evils committed by the Japanese military than the symbol of any other imperial state (and the evils they engage in) or religion, and that military (or other) virtues can and should be fruitfully honored by imperial/hegemonic symbols despite whatever evils the state (or religion) might have committed.

essentially that is my argument, but i also think that all states should be held to the same standards, and all complaining parties held up on the same level. it's all or nothing, you can't pick and choose which groups are held responsible and which go scott free.

Quote:

Now all these points have already been tangled with. Read the thread. You may continue to disagree with them, but it is a simple fact that that counterpoints have been raised and you have by turns ignored them or changed your own argument, such as when you ran back and forth as to what the symbol supposedly means when used on the GSP gi.

they have been tangled with, but i don't find the arguments convincing. what you refer to as running back and forth was my considering various things the GSP gi could stand for, which was a mistake on my part, since i didn't design it, don't know what they could have meant, and have no reason or desire to defend that gi (it's ugly and tacky.)

my defense is of the rising sun as an image, and that in my opinion, it has legitimate uses and is not equivalent to the swastika. period. that's my whole position, i don't take one on the GSP gi being appropriate, tasteful, or something i would wear, but i do think that the rising sun can be used legitimately and that there should not be a knee-jerk reaction to seeing it. as gezere pointed out, the image of the rising sun is used all over japan to represent "japan" and to be used as a source of pride in the nation.

Quote:

And now you dare bring your fingers to the keyboard to type:

*shrug* you're the one who said this was "hard work" and that you didn't want to do it.

Quote:

Congratulations. You have failed the grown-up test. Report to your wife for diapering and make a public clown of yourself no more.

you seem to think i have failed it, but aren't you failing your own test by referring to me as a baby, and a clown rather than sticking to your arguments? you seem to have trouble holding everyone to the same standards. hmmm, it seems to be a pattern for you.

Quote:

For third parties who might be coming in late, here are the points and counterpoints, grown-up style:

i suppose these are sort of the points (mostly) until you fail your own test and call me a baby.

Quote:

Japanese imperial flag is like US/UK flag—no, imperial Japan is different because it wasalso worse for the Japanese, as opposed to the US/UK, both of whom at least also represent authentic democratic traditions for their own people, if not for the victims of their imperial adventures. Ditto Christianity. Imperial Japan does not have the same dual nature as either the cross of the flags of the US or the UK. (Links go to different posts; Loyalist wants me to repeat the discussions for a third time, apparently, like a baby throwing his rattle to the floor repeatedly to see if mama will keep picking it up.)

wait, what? i still think the flags are equivalent. is your position that you feel that post meiji japan is held to a different standard than the US and the UK because it's not an "authentic democracy"? and it was "bad for the japanese people"? huh?

news to you, the UK is a monarchy, and the US isn't much of a democracy. i think the current japanese government is roughly as represntative as either the US or the UK. i can't think of very many countries where the government is actually "good for the people" but maybe you have some sort of different definition of that concept. to my eyes, no governments out there should be winning any awards.

japan doesn't have the "dual nature" of christianity? you mean where christians went to "save the savages" and give them "help" but only if they accept jesus as their saviour? christianity has been a force for evil for a long time, i don't buy this "dual nature" crap. i didn't even *make* the christianity comparison, that was someone else's argument by the way.

as far as "throwing my rattle to the floor" (nice failure of your own test) i don't want you to *repeat* the argument that was already made, i want you to *prove* it, which you have not done. my saying that your argument isn't convincing is not the same as throwing a tantrum, and you repeating the same argument doesn't make it more convincing.

Quote:

GSP's rising sun gi represents post-imperial Japan, which has not invaded anybody in 70 years and which plays a defensive role against China and PDRK—no, clearly the symbol is not being used to represent meek defensiveness.

Okay, revert to the previous argument: only some military people committed atrocities—the flag can represent normal military virtues of individual soldiers, not of the Japanese military—No, Japan was routinely militarily aggressive. And of course the flag represents in the first instance what the flag is supposed to represent, and not what Ming decides he'd like it to in order to keep using it.

since i don't work for hayabusa, i have no idea what GSP's gi represents, but i could *guess* that as you said they are trying to depict him as a warrior.

my point was that soldiers have pride from the flags they serve under and it's not your business to tell them not to. the fact that nasty things happened under nearly every flag is not enough to cause soldiers to stop having pride in them. you mocking the japanese defense service doesn't make their service any less valid, and doesn't invalidate their pride. how effective they may or may not be in case of invasion is irrelevant, they are putting their lives on the line. i don't see why that service should be mocked and invalidated, but again, maybe you have some insider knowledge here.

the flag can and does represent the normal military virtues of individual soldiers, the fact that the post meiji japanese commanders pre-1945 almost exclusively engaged in aggression doesn't invalidate the service of the soldiers, and i'm sure most of them felt that the actions their commanders were taking were necessary (propaganda is very effective after all.)

soldiers are soldiers and commanders are commanders. you do realize that after a war, there is a reason that some people are prosecuted for war crimes and others are not, right?

Quote:

Oh yeah, well I use the flag so it's not a problem!—no, well, that is your problem, isn't it?

You won't tell me what the problem is, so I win!—no, you need to learn to read like a grown-up does. (If this doesn't sound like a grown-up variation, well Ming's final post wasn't very grown-up.)

nope, not even close. my point (again for those who can't follow) is that *my dojo* is the US representative of kokushikan univeristy in japan (a former military university with the rising sun over mount fuji as it's logo.) i think the use of the rising sun is appropriate in this case. if you disagree, please show why a japanese *military* university, shouldn't use the military flag, making sure to explain why west point also shouldn't fly the US flag.

now, my dojo also has the gall to use the same logo as our parent organization (OMG! the nerve!) and again, i think the use of this symbol is *entirely appropriate*. if you don't think so, please explain why we should not be using the logo of our parent organization.

Quote:

Tada!

/thread

/unsubscribe

not quite, princess unicorn, but that was some nice rhetoric, but you have not convinced me of anything.

Sorry, Ming. This is why, while you may be logically right, you're still wrong.

4/20/2013 4:07pm,

dwkfym

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gezere

Why?

Just an FYI the Rising Sun flag is still used everywhere in Japan. From newspapers to soft drinks. It is a matter of pride. The US did some horrible things during war time. We don't give a **** we still fly/wear our flag.

So if the Swastika was a symbol of pride, that'd be cool too right? I mean since a symbol of Imperial Japan is cool in Japan, why the **** did the Germans stop rocking their symbol of their historical nationalistic pride? Oh right, unlike the Japanese populace they actually learn real history, and all the **** their nazis used to do, and they actually aren't that proud of that part of their history anymore.

yeah, well **** all of them and their pride. If you are from Korea, Phillipines, China, Burma, pretty much anywhere on that side of the pacific rim, your grandparents were shipped off to fight a war for their enemies, enslaved, raped, biological experiments performed on (lets not get into too many details on this), forced into prostitution for the same guys doing all of the above, etc. Don't forget the cultural cleansing. Rape of Nanking is only one story of tens of thousands of many.

This goes beyond the typical soldier fucking up and massacring a villiage or two. Goes beyond intrenment camps. This was systematic exploitation of entire nations of people, trying to make them their subjects from the core. So when you ask why not, because that symbol represents the core enemies of my people and blood, who wounded the hearts of my people and deeply implated the seeds of hate. Of Americans too really, just not as directly affected.

Did Americans do anything like that in the last century? And don't we Americans actually try to own up to **** like Korematsu and what we did to the Indians hundreds of years ago? Like a lot more than just saying 'sorry for starting ww2' once a year? And actually try very hard to not repeat the mistakes again?

I don't like to bitch about it too much. It happened because my people were too weak and their government was too fucked up internally to prevent it. But I need to show you our point of view.

And if America did do that to a group of people I belonged to, and kept marching around reminding everyone of what they did to you, I'd be saying **** them too. But they didn't. In fact, they mostly helped. So no, not **** you America (more like love you), but **** you Imperial Japan, their pride, and all of that **** that has any connection to imperial Japan.

Disclaimer: My anger is more towards the Japanese government for willfully hiding history from their own people. When I tell a bit of this to a Japanese FOB/native, they usually have never heard of it before beyond the mere 'we started ww2 and got nuked for it' part.

4/20/2013 4:16pm,

dwkfym

Sorry Ming. A huge huge population of the world know why that symbol is fucked up. We shouldn't be proud of not knowing it why, given the place America has in the world and the fact that America was directly invovled in to also by fighting a world war against Japan within the last century. And especially considering that Americans consist of decendants of many of those guys on the other side of the pacific, including Japan itself. Even though CNN can't tell the difference between Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan (and even though I had to look up the spellings)

4/20/2013 4:20pm,

dwkfym

I do use the word "we" confisingly. For those of you that are new or not know me or whatever, I originated from Korea but immigrated to the U.S.

4/20/2013 6:19pm,

Ming Loyalist

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwkfym

Sorry Ming. A huge huge population of the world know why that symbol is fucked up. We shouldn't be proud of not knowing it why, given the place America has in the world and the fact that America was directly invovled in to also by fighting a world war against Japan within the last century. And especially considering that Americans consist of decendants of many of those guys on the other side of the pacific, including Japan itself. Even though CNN can't tell the difference between Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan (and even though I had to look up the spellings)

sorry dude, you're not making a lot of sense. if you want to read what i wrote and make arguments about why i am incorrect, that would be great. what you wrote above is nothing more than an angry rant.

and der, all that proves is something that i have said many times: the japanese educational system does a terrible job and needs to be changed to teach the dark side of japanese history. something i have been personally involved in changing, as i have pointed out.