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The Indiana Pacers' goals for the season didn't change when they learned leading-scorer Danny Granger would miss at least three months.

How they achieve those goals did, though.

What was a team that clicked offensively and was solid defensively last season has been brutal on offense and experiencing defensive breakdowns at the wrong time this year.
Those two problems are the primary reasons why the Pacers are 3-6 heading into tonight's home game with Dallas.

The Star recently talked to three NBA scouts who have watched the Pacers in person or on film this season to get their take on what has gone wrong.

Biggest problem

Scout No. 1
"They're searching for who should get the ball at the right time. (Coach Frank) Vogel has condensed his offense to only a handful of plays and runs them all the time. You know what's coming. They're easy to defend because you can play everybody straight up without the concern of getting beat. There's only occasional times where Roy Hibbert is going to go off. You know how he's getting the ball, the plays that are coming. They don't strike fear in anybody."

Scout No. 2
"You hate to compare what a guy is making like in Hibbert's case, but the reality is when you pay him all that money you expect him to easily get you double figures in points and rebounds. The shots he's missing are point-blank shots; it's not like he's shooting jumpers. You're talking about jump hooks, two or three feet from the basket. You see his confidence is not there."

Scout No. 3
"They're just a careless team. They don't know how to pass the basketball, that's why they're near the top of the league in turnovers. It's simple passes that aren't being made. You can't have an offensive structure if you don't know to feed the ball into the post."

Replacing Granger

Scout No. 1
"David West is a legitimate pro, but he's too unselfish of a player and he's not going to go out there and give you 20-plus points a night. That's not his nature. The two people who should be doing that are Hibbert and (George) Hill. Hibbert has never handled pressure well in his career. Hill has more pressure on him to think while he's playing point guard. He's a better instinctual player. Playing off the ball (at shooting guard) will help him. It'll allow him to just play and score."

Scout No. 3
"You would think it would be Paul George since he's supposed to be the heir apparent at small forward for the Pacers. But he hasn't had the same impact that he had last year. Maybe it's because without Danny he's the focus of more team's scouting reports. The other thing about Paul is, he's not a good ball handler. You can't put the ball in his hands and tell him to make a play. You have to be able to handle the ball to do that."

Bench woes

Scout No. 2
"I thought (D.J.) Augustin was going to be better than what he is. He's way too laid back when he plays. It's almost like he doesn't care. He needs to get back to playing aggressive the way he did in Charlotte. Gerald Green is who he is. He was successful in New Jersey because they were basically playing one-on-one basketball out there. That's his strong suit. But that's not how the Pacers play. If you (isolate) him then they're not going to get a lot of ball movement. You know what you're going to get from (Tyler) Hansbrough. A lot of energy from an undersized power forward."

Scout No. 3
"Remember the play in Minnesota where Green got beat for the winning basket when Chase (Budinger) went backdoor? That summed up Green right there. Freakishly athletic but not a smart basketball player. You'll be fine with him if you like dunks. You just can't depend on him in key moments of the game."

The Indiana Pacers' goals for the season didn't change when they learned leading-scorer Danny Granger would miss at least three months.

How they achieve those goals did, though.

What was a team that clicked offensively and was solid defensively last season has been brutal on offense and experiencing defensive breakdowns at the wrong time this year.
Those two problems are the primary reasons why the Pacers are 3-6 heading into tonight's home game with Dallas.

The Star recently talked to three NBA scouts who have watched the Pacers in person or on film this season to get their take on what has gone wrong.

Biggest problem

Scout No. 1
"They're searching for who should get the ball at the right time. (Coach Frank) Vogel has condensed his offense to only a handful of plays and runs them all the time. You know what's coming. They're easy to defend because you can play everybody straight up without the concern of getting beat. There's only occasional times where Roy Hibbert is going to go off. You know how he's getting the ball, the plays that are coming. They don't strike fear in anybody."

Scout No. 2
"You hate to compare what a guy is making like in Hibbert's case, but the reality is when you pay him all that money you expect him to easily get you double figures in points and rebounds. The shots he's missing are point-blank shots; it's not like he's shooting jumpers. You're talking about jump hooks, two or three feet from the basket. You see his confidence is not there."

Scout No. 3
"They're just a careless team. They don't know how to pass the basketball, that's why they're near the top of the league in turnovers. It's simple passes that aren't being made. You can't have an offensive structure if you don't know to feed the ball into the post."

Replacing Granger

Scout No. 1
"David West is a legitimate pro, but he's too unselfish of a player and he's not going to go out there and give you 20-plus points a night. That's not his nature. The two people who should be doing that are Hibbert and (George) Hill. Hibbert has never handled pressure well in his career. Hill has more pressure on him to think while he's playing point guard. He's a better instinctual player. Playing off the ball (at shooting guard) will help him. It'll allow him to just play and score."

Scout No. 3
"You would think it would be Paul George since he's supposed to be the heir apparent at small forward for the Pacers. But he hasn't had the same impact that he had last year. Maybe it's because without Danny he's the focus of more team's scouting reports. The other thing about Paul is, he's not a good ball handler. You can't put the ball in his hands and tell him to make a play. You have to be able to handle the ball to do that."

Bench woes

Scout No. 2
"I thought (D.J.) Augustin was going to be better than what he is. He's way too laid back when he plays. It's almost like he doesn't care. He needs to get back to playing aggressive the way he did in Charlotte. Gerald Green is who he is. He was successful in New Jersey because they were basically playing one-on-one basketball out there. That's his strong suit. But that's not how the Pacers play. If you (isolate) him then they're not going to get a lot of ball movement. You know what you're going to get from (Tyler) Hansbrough. A lot of energy from an undersized power forward."

Scout No. 3
"Remember the play in Minnesota where Green got beat for the winning basket when Chase (Budinger) went backdoor? That summed up Green right there. Freakishly athletic but not a smart basketball player. You'll be fine with him if you like dunks. You just can't depend on him in key moments of the game."

I think most of the board should become scouts. Certainly not telling us anything we did not already know.

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Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Scout No. 3
"They're just a careless team. They don't know how to pass the basketball, that's why they're near the top of the league in turnovers. It's simple passes that aren't being made. You can't have an offensive structure if you don't know to feed the ball into the post."

We have many problems related to players and poor shooting. But this major problem is on Vogel. He needs to work and work and work on it, and he needs to change the offensive plays if necessary to solve the problem. And he needs to play the right players (Lance, not Green) to solve the problem.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

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Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Yeah, I read that last night. Somehow, Bleacher Report got a hold of the article before it was posted on the Star site.

Anyway, I can't argue with any of those statements. I will say that if these players don't fit Frank's offensive system (Green in particular), then the system needs to be changed so that the players can succeed.

They need to pick up the pace offensively and not give the defense the opportunity to set up on them. When you have a lot of guys that can't make a simple pass under duress, you can't have an offense with a ton of traditional post-ups especially when it takes a long time for the post player to get set and seal his man (Hibbert). Or they could switch to the triangle offense. Brian Shaw should be very familiar with it.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

We have many problems related to players and poor shooting. But this major problem is on Vogel. He needs to work and work and work on it, and he needs to change the offensive plays if necessary to solve the problem. And he needs to play the right players (Lance, not Green) to solve the problem.

If you have poor passers on your team, one way to "fix" that is to get your team to pass less. I don't think that is what we want though.

I think the triangle offense would be a disaster. can you imagine these players trying to pass the ball when they have to think. Can you imagine them when they have to try and read the defense to decide where to cut. No, that won't work.

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Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Cant disagree with much of anything said there. The part about Vogel rang especially true as well. I dont think its fair to criticize people for getting excited about Greens dunks. Yeah its not like thats going to help win games necessarily, but I dont think a single person expected that to be the only thing he'd provide. It is still entertainment in a season were there hasnt been much so far.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Cant disagree with much of anything said there. The part about Vogel rang especially true as well. I dont think its fair to criticize people for getting excited about Greens dunks. Yeah its not like thats going to help win games necessarily, but I dont think a single person expected that to be the only thing he'd provide. It is still entertainment in a season were there hasnt been much so far.

The fan base fell in love with McBrick a few years ago because he made thundering dunks. That was all that he could do. Green may be about the same but more athletic.....

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Good post Uncle Buck. I was a little taken aback by the Vogel simplifying the offense blurb. How much simplier than last year's sets could you get? And why would you need to cut down on plays after a full TC and Pre-season for this group? Did anyone watch film on the players we gave contracts to this summer? IMO, Frank runs a HS freshman team offense most of the time anyway, if these guys (making millions of bucks) can;t set a screen, roll to the rim, take 3 or 4 dribbles(without going through their legs and kicking the ball away) to clear space for a shot, they need to be on the bench. I would start Lance, Hill, PG, DW and anybody except Ben Hans or Hibbert. Roy needs to get his mental toughness back or sit down. If his shot isn't falling, he needs to double down on defense, rebounding and passing until his shot timing gets back. Put back dunks for a 7+ footer should be a good start for his game.

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Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

The only part I disagree with is the part about West not being a selfish player. He is by far the most selfish player on the team other than Tyler. I think that part was more appropriate for George.

Personally, if this team can become mentally tough I think passing more would benefit the team in the long term. It will only work though if they were able to accept the growing pains of turnovers and mistakes. The increased passing in the long term would improve their chemistry and passing ability in general. I just am not convinced they all have the mental ability to do it, especially Hibbert.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

The only part I disagree with is the part about West not being a selfish player. He is by far the most selfish player on the team other than Tyler.

Speaking as someone who has had access to the team, coaches, the locker room, and the occasional practices for the last year, I consider this statement to be contrary to my experience and completely wrong.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

They're just a careless team. They don't know how to pass the basketball, that's why they're near the top of the league in turnovers. It's simple passes that aren't being made. You can't have an offensive structure if you don't know to feed the ball into the post.

This is it. Period. I just don't know how you fix it, without major trades.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Speaking as someone who has had access to the team, coaches, the locker room, and the occasional practices for the last year, I consider this statement to be contrary to my experience and completely wrong.

I didn't go into detail with my opinion. Being team first doesn't mean he isn't also capable of being selfish. When things are going well he is unselfish, but when things start going poorly he tends to get tunnel vision once he gets the ball trying to turn things around. When he is angry and frustrated he turns into a selfish player.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Speaking as someone who has had access to the team, coaches, the locker room, and the occasional practices for the last year, I consider this statement to be contrary to my experience and completely wrong.

I don't think you have to be present in a practice or get inside the locker room to be able to see that sometimes West tries to take over DURING GAMES making him look selfish, maybe it's by design maybe no.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

I didn't go into detail with my opinion. Being team first doesn't mean he isn't also capable of being selfish. When things are going well he is unselfish, but when things start going poorly he tends to get tunnel vision once he gets the ball trying to turn things around. When he is angry and frustrated he turns into a selfish player.

But isn't that the definition of "the guy who wants to put the team on his shoulders"?

I sometimes think this is one of the biggest fan split personalities out there. If a guy we think is capable of it ISN'T grabbing every opportunity to score, he's soft and has no killer instinct. If a guy DOES grab every opportunity when the game is on the line and no one else is stepping up (PLEASE note that part!) and yet isn't completely successful, then he is selfish and a black hole.

To me, selfish is keeping the ball when:

a) your job is to be in the flow of the play, not the end of it
b) someone else is being successful and you are keeping the ball from them

If either of these things is false, then "selfish" is not the correct term.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

If you have poor passers on your team, one way to "fix" that is to get your team to pass less. I don't think that is what we want though.

I think the triangle offense would be a disaster. can you imagine these players trying to pass the ball when they have to think. Can you imagine them when they have to try and read the defense to decide where to cut. No, that won't work.

Yep Vogels answer to the lack of good passers on the team has been to make the offense easier, the problem is that it also makes it easier for teams to guard it.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Cant disagree with much of anything said there. The part about Vogel rang especially true as well. I dont think its fair to criticize people for getting excited about Greens dunks. Yeah its not like thats going to help win games necessarily, but I dont think a single person expected that to be the only thing he'd provide. It is still entertainment in a season were there hasnt been much so far.

Agreed. A wing player that shoots 48% from the field and nearly 40% from 3 isn't being expected to only score off dunks.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Speaking as someone who has had access to the team, coaches, the locker room, and the occasional practices for the last year, I consider this statement to be contrary to my experience and completely wrong.

Tim, would you be of the opinion that making West a larger part of the offense at this time, in a sense encouraging him to be a bit selfish, would enhance the probability of winning a few more games until either additional players (Hibbert, George) can "step up" or Granger returns?

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Yep Vogels answer to the lack of good passers on the team has been to make the offense easier, the problem is that it also makes it easier for teams to guard it.

I have to agree with part of this. I think what has been missing is that the pass targets aren't moving without the ball to help the passer find a good passing lane - in fact, some of the turnovers have clearly been when someone with some semblance of court vision sees an open spot and that a player has a route to it, passes it there, but the pass receiver hasn't bothered to move to the open spot.

We really just fail to move.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

But isn't that the definition of "the guy who wants to put the team on his shoulders"?

I sometimes think this is one of the biggest fan split personalities out there. If a guy we think is capable of it ISN'T grabbing every opportunity to score, he's soft and has no killer instinct. If a guy DOES grab every opportunity when the game is on the line and no one else is stepping up (PLEASE note that part!) and yet isn't completely successful, then he is selfish and a black hole.

To me, selfish is keeping the ball when:

a) your job is to be in the flow of the play, not the end of it
b) someone else is being successful and you are keeping the ball from them

If either of these things is false, then "selfish" is not the correct term.

I think we just view selfish differently. To me being selfish being good or bad is very circumstantial, but I consider it selfish no matter what. Just sometimes it is beneficial to the team, while the majority of the time it isn't.

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Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

I don't consider West selfish at all. IMO he is too unselfish. his job is to score and be a leader on our team. I want him to shoot a lot, if he is open out to about 18 feet and realtively open I want him shooting. If he is posting and can get a decent shot off, I want him shooting. it isn't like we have Lebron on our team for him to pass the ball too. Right now he doesn't even have Granger to pass to. He's our best offensive player right now.

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

I think we just view selfish differently. To me being selfish being good or bad is very circumstantial, but I consider it selfish no matter what. Just sometimes it is beneficial to the team, while the majority of the time it isn't.

When it is on purpose I would call it ball dominant - it seems unfair to me to use a pejorative like "selfish" to describe what someone is asked and expected to do.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

Tim, would you be of the opinion that making West a larger part of the offense at this time, in a sense encouraging him to be a bit selfish, would enhance the probability of winning a few more games until either additional players (Hibbert, George) can "step up" or Granger returns?

He is already a big part of the offense, the problem is that teams already know how to shut him down, making West a bigger part of the offense(take into consideration that he is already a huge part) all is going to do is keep other guys for touching the ball and getting in rhythm specially Roy.