5 thoughts on “Dr. Frank Turek Talks Faith & Atheism with Will Witt”

so, a pair of conservatives make false claims about atheists. How typically Christian. No, atheists don’t want to be “god” of their own lives. That’s the usual old “atheists want to be rebellious” nonsense that so many Christian run to. Alas, for them, atheists are just as humane and moral as they are, often more so since our morals can change and aren’t dependent on the writings of ignorant people a couple of thousand years ago. We don’t have come up with apologetics so we can ignore our morals. I’m quite happy to have a subjective morality that says killing a child for its parents actions isn’t a good thing. A Christian is stuck with that.

Turek also confuses nihilism and post=modern nonsense with atheism. Atheism is just the conclusion that there are no god/s. The rest isn’t required.

“so, a pair of conservatives make false claims about atheists. How typically Christian. No, atheists don’t want to be “god” of their own lives.”

They don’t want to control their own lives? That is news to me. Who do they want to control their lives then? Whomever it is that they want in control of their lives is their god, even if they don’t call him god.

“Alas, for them, atheists are just as humane and moral as they are, often more so since our morals can change and aren’t dependent on the writings of ignorant people a couple of thousand years ago.”

Just as humane, and more moral? While all people have the capability of being moral at least some of the time on God’s standards of morality. What does it even mean to be moral when you have already admitted that your morals can change? The atheist who abused me as a child defined morality in a way that allowed him to abuse me. The greatest killers of all time; Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong people that murdered millions of people thought that they were doing what was morally right for their communist utopias to work. Were they moral? If each person gets to make up their own morality they were moral, but only in their own eyes.

” We don’t have come up with apologetics so we can ignore our morals”

You have a complete misunderstanding about apologetics. We are not trying to circumvent our morals when we do apologetics, we are thinking more clearly about the Christian World View so that we can explain it to others, not only what we believe, but why we believe it.

“I’m quite happy to have a subjective morality that says killing a child for its parent’s actions isn’t a good thing. ”

If your morality is subjective and able to change, how do we know that you won’t change your mind tomorrow and suddenly believe that killing a child is good? Unless you have an objective standard that your morality is reaching for, we don’t.

“Atheism is just the conclusion that there are no god/s. The rest isn’t required.”

While the rest isn’t required in the strictest sense atheism is more than one word, it is a worldview and if you believe that there is no God than certain ideas are likely to flow from that premise.

Controlling one’s life is not wanting to be a god, of one’s life or anything else. There is no gods involved, unless you want to admit that anything can be described as a god, making the term essentially meaningless.

It’s interesting that you say that this god controls your life. Many Christians claim that they have free will. I see you believe otherwise. I was a Presbyterian so I do understand that version of Christianity that insists that this god controls people.

You claim that this god of yours has some standards of morality. What are those since it changes wildly with each Christian’s interpretation? One doesn’t have to always have the same morals. I’m quite glad most people don’t still think that slavery is okay or that killing children for the actions of their parents is ok like the authors of the bible did.

As for child abuse, funny how some humans do that, including religious ones who do just like you say, defined their morality so they can do it. It seems your god does nothing to those who supposedly ignore its morality despite doing a lot against them in the bible stories; and again, Christians don’t agree on what this god wants for morality.

The greatest killer of all, if one believes the bible, is the Judeo/Islamo/Christian god. As for human leaders who commanded genocide, they were megalomaniacs in addition to being atheists or worshiping themselves. I’m an atheist and unsurprisingly I have no desire to murder people for not agreeing with me. People can make up their own morality, but they are punished if that morality varies from what appears to be the human norm. We have similar morals since they help civilization work. No gods needed.

I do not misunderstand Christian apologetics. Christians find that their bible doesn’t make much sense as it stands, so they must invent reasons why it “really does” make sense. Take for existence your god’s love of genocide and slavery. Most Christians are very uncomfortable that the bible says some things that are not considered moral in the 21st century. When it says that people who disagree with you regarding religion, sex, etc should be killed, most people don’t agree with that nonsense. We treat those who do agree with that as pariahs.
Christians pick and choose what you want to take as literal, metaphor and what to ignore altogether. Each Christian invents a new “Christian World View” that disagrees with other “Christian World Views”. And then each Christian insists that everyone who doesn’t agree with them isn’t “really” a Christian at all.

Nice try but people don’t just magically change their morality. They change for reasons. Now, unless you can come up with a reason that it would suddenly be okay to kill a child for its parents actions, all you are doing is inventing a fantasy that won’t come true. Now, wzip, do you believe it is okay or not to kill a child for its parents actions?

Yep, wzip, the rest isn’t required, ever. You desperately try to claim that it is, needing to change the definition of atheist to do so since atheism isn’t a “worldview” aka philosophy. No, there aren’t “certain idea” that come from not believing in a god. I’m an atheist, and my worldview is Epicurean.

Your claims are built on lies you’ve been told about atheists and you have chosen to repeat those lies without thought.

“Controlling one’s life is not wanting to be a god, of one’s life or anything else. There is no gods involved, unless you want to admit that anything can be described as a god, making the term essentially meaningless.”

When a person says god with a small g they don’t mean the one that they personally worship they mean one of the definitions of god that are in the dictionary.
From Mirriam Webster:: a person or thing of supreme value. or a powerful ruler
In Christian theology that god is an idol, In the show American Idol you can take away the word Idol, and replace it with god, and it describes how it’s winners are treated by a huge portion of the public. Anything can be a god with a lowercase g. You have to look at the context to decide if a person is referring to Yahweh, or some lesser being called god.

“It’s interesting that you say that this god controls your life.”

The laws of the country you live in controls your behavior to a certain extent. There have probably been times when you wanted to smack someone, you could have picked up your hand to hit them. Considering how many people are in jail for assault it was possible to actually hit that person, but since you knew that you would go to jail or some other punishment, you freely choose to let the laws of the state control your actions.
I freely choose to follow the will of God.

“You claim that this god of yours has some standards of morality. What are those since it changes wildly with each Christian’s interpretation?”

Things mean what the author says that they mean. The way that we understand these laws can evolve with a clearer understanding. I suspect however that anyone whose morality on murder, or adultery, lying… varies wildly from mine is either lying about being a Christian, severely misinformed, or as many people have started denying Christianity in deed, and isn’t far away from denying it altogether. Some examples of Christian morality varying from mine wildly would be helpful.

“One doesn’t have to always have the same morals. I’m quite glad most people don’t still think that slavery is okay or that killing children for the actions of their parents is ok like the authors of the bible did.”

Slavery: When the Torah was written Slavery was a worldwide institution. Criminals were enslaved, people who were in debt were enslaved, people taken during war were enslaved… It was by no means unique to Jewish culture. It was a devilish practice most of the time. If God had of outright outlawed it would have been a DISASTER. Not only would most have not obeyed without any prisons, that were in control of the Jewish people, but it would also have led to anarchy. But he did regulate it to the point that it bore little resemblance to the slavery that was going on everywhere else. And God was continually reminding the Jews that they were once slaves in Egypt, and they needed to treat their slaves like they wish that they had been treated, and he punished them on multiple occasions when they refused to follow his rules making slavery more humane. As time went on however many people came to realize that if everyone was made in God’s image that meant that everyone was due respect. Till Christians in many countries started rising up and became abolitionist. Shamefully it took far longer than it should have, but it was largely Christians who got it done. It isn’t as if we magically changed our morality. Our lines of reason slowly developed until it is what it is today.

“As for child abuse, funny how some humans do that, including religious ones who do just like you say, defined their morality so they can do it. It seems your god does nothing to those who supposedly ignore its morality despite doing a lot against them in the bible stories; and again, Christians don’t agree on what this god wants for morality.”

Anyone who says that Christians are perfect lies. One of Christianity’s most important premises is that “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Anyone who abuses their children is clearly doing wrong. I am sure that you will come up with the part of the Bible that talks about taking a child outside the gate to stone him, but if you read the passage carefully you will see that the child, isn’t really a child. It is an adult drunkard who refuses to do any work or support his family. They did not have food stamps or the UN to come in and save the day when not enough food was produced. A person who refused to work could mean the deaths of many come winter. Not to mention how mean, belligerent and nasty drunks can be. Just the threat of their parents having the right to have them killed probably saved many lives in the wintertime, because they worked for a living, instead of being drunken layabouts who needed others to take care of them.
Would you find letting your family starve to death because you were too lazy to get up and do something any more acceptable?

Speaking of work, I have spent a good portion of the day answering you, and I really must get up. I will try to write more tomorrow. There is a book that might be helpful to you called.
“Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God”
by Paul Copan

If you have Kindle unlimited you can download it for free, if not your local library might have it.