Superior Drummer 3 Announced

yes, the drums are natural/unprocessed and yes, i absolutely hate how these sound!
i was always a fan of the Toontrack cymbals and always hated how the shells sounded
but now they managed to fuck up the Cymbals aswell!

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Missed this earlier - honestly, the improvement in realism in the cymbals are, for me, the single biggest improvement in the whole program, so I'm surprised to hear you say this.

S2.0's brass always sounded a little stiff and artificial to me; the tone was... fine, I guess, but the response was very artificial and the cymbals, in particular, I always struggled to get sounding like they'd been played by a real drummer and not sequenced.

S3.0 isn't perfectly real... But the cymbals and hi-hats sound a whole heck of a lot more natural to me. Unmixed, in a rock mix, the drums sound objectively bad... But, that's because they're unmixed. Avatar was processed enough that you could use it right off the bat, whereas the S3.0 kits really do need to be EQ'd, compressed, etc before they start sounding like an album. You can use the presets as a shortcut if you're doing something in a hurry, but I've found you have a LOT more flexibility to color and mix the sounds the way you want with the 3.0 samples, whereas 2.0 was already pretty heavily shaped right off the bat.

So, if you want a drop-in solution, then unless you happen to really like one of the presets, 3.0 isn't for you. If you don't mind/want to mix your own drum sounds, though, and I guess importantly if you know what you're doing (like, if someone sent you raw, unprocessed drum tracks, you could make them sound like a record), then 3.0 is pretty damned impressive. I haven't really done a full hard rock/metal mix with it yet, but on some of the folk-rock stuff I HAVE done with this (the kind of stuff programmed drums usually fall down on) I got a lot of people saying they wouldn't have guessed the drums were sequenced had I not told them it was Superior. And that was programming grooves and fills by hand.

S2.0's brass always sounded a little stiff and artificial to me; the tone was... fine, I guess, but the response was very artificial and the cymbals, in particular, I always struggled to get sounding like they'd been played by a real drummer and not sequenced.

Missed this earlier - honestly, the improvement in realism in the cymbals are, for me, the single biggest improvement in the whole program, so I'm surprised to hear you say this.

S2.0's brass always sounded a little stiff and artificial to me; the tone was... fine, I guess, but the response was very artificial and the cymbals, in particular, I always struggled to get sounding like they'd been played by a real drummer and not sequenced.

S3.0 isn't perfectly real... But the cymbals and hi-hats sound a whole heck of a lot more natural to me. Unmixed, in a rock mix, the drums sound objectively bad... But, that's because they're unmixed. Avatar was processed enough that you could use it right off the bat, whereas the S3.0 kits really do need to be EQ'd, compressed, etc before they start sounding like an album. You can use the presets as a shortcut if you're doing something in a hurry, but I've found you have a LOT more flexibility to color and mix the sounds the way you want with the 3.0 samples, whereas 2.0 was already pretty heavily shaped right off the bat.

So, if you want a drop-in solution, then unless you happen to really like one of the presets, 3.0 isn't for you. If you don't mind/want to mix your own drum sounds, though, and I guess importantly if you know what you're doing (like, if someone sent you raw, unprocessed drum tracks, you could make them sound like a record), then 3.0 is pretty damned impressive. I haven't really done a full hard rock/metal mix with it yet, but on some of the folk-rock stuff I HAVE done with this (the kind of stuff programmed drums usually fall down on) I got a lot of people saying they wouldn't have guessed the drums were sequenced had I not told them it was Superior. And that was programming grooves and fills by hand.

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The realism has indeed improved but soundwise you can not compare the SD2 and SD3 Cymbals.
SD2 sounded very stiff in general i agree but the sound of the core library was way better, especially the cymbals.

It also does have nothing to do with ones mixing abhilities, i've heard people say the same thing about SD2 and yet i have not heard one
single example where SD2 sounded convincing compared to real drums or without external samples being mixed in.

The samples are RAW yes but not "great mic placement RAW" it's more something like "we just threw a bunch of mics tiogether RAW"
If you check out piece by piece the sound is terrible and extrmeley inconsistent, with a few very rare exceptions.

That's why Toontrack libraries are always cliuttered with extra mics, their approach of sampling is simply wrong and lazy
insteat having a "geting it right in the beginning" mentality they rather go with "yeah, so what we can fix it in the mix later"
and yet they are the leading company when it comes to virtual drums, that's simply because people are having pretty low standards nowadays.

Toontrack stuff is good no doubt but being good and being great is two different things, generally speaking Toontracks has made some very bad choices regarding the
sound library.

The software is undeniably excellent btw!

The BOB ROCK expansion sounds way better, however completely excluding China cymbals in a sound library that has the name ROCK in it, is beyond
stupid, especially consierting tha fact that the core libryry china cymbals sound like ass.

It also does have nothing to do with ones mixing abhilities, i've heard people say the same thing about SD2 and yet i have not heard one
single example where SD2 sounded convincing compared to real drums or without external samples being mixed in.

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Yes, but the problem with S2.0 was that out of the box the Avatar kit already sounded pretty fully mixed. I'm saying the biggest differences I'm hearing in S3.0 is that the drum samples are a lot less processed sounding right out of the box (and, accordingly, needto be mixed to sound like a mixed drum kit), but also that the overall realism and response of the brass in 3.0 seems to be the single biggest area of improvement.

How realistic 2.0 cymbals sounded, no matter how well mixed, doesn't really tell you anything about how 3.0 sounds. And, my personal opinion, as soneone who owns and uses the program, is that 3.0 represents a significant improvement in cymbal realism, and as such helps fix one of the biggest weaknesses in 2.0.

I tried the SD3 library and I actually thought it sounded really, really bad, like everything was lacking punch and balls. The cymbals sound paper thin and the shells sound like they are being hit by a girl. Went back to using TMF with Metal Machinery Toms. People bash the fuck out of TFM, but excluding the Toms, that library had tons of balls. Also as raw as the SD3 library, so processing is not the reason they sound better.

Yes, but the problem with S2.0 was that out of the box the Avatar kit already sounded pretty fully mixed. I'm saying the biggest differences I'm hearing in S3.0 is that the drum samples are a lot less processed sounding right out of the box (and, accordingly, needto be mixed to sound like a mixed drum kit), but also that the overall realism and response of the brass in 3.0 seems to be the single biggest area of improvement.

How realistic 2.0 cymbals sounded, no matter how well mixed, doesn't really tell you anything about how 3.0 sounds. And, my personal opinion, as soneone who owns and uses the program, is that 3.0 represents a significant improvement in cymbal realism, and as such helps fix one of the biggest weaknesses in 2.0.

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Toontrack always stated that SD2 was RAW, so i guess it was not really mixed but recorded in a much better way with much more efffort.
There are surely some EQ adjustments but i would not call it "mixed" at all.

You also have to differentiate realism and sound, the brass in SD3 sounds
better in terms of realism but the tonal quality is shitty as hell.

There are also a lot of mistakes, which have been partially fixed but some are still present.

There is also an extreme inconsistency, some cymbals sound extremely dull others have a massive noise floor, i think in general that George Massenburg was a bad choice, he surely made himself a name but that's exactly what Toontrack is selling.

I'd rather have a lesser known guy record the drums but then properly but yeah this would not be a good advertisement right?

I tried the SD3 library and I actually thought it sounded really, really bad, like everything was lacking punch and balls. The cymbals sound paper thin and the shells sound like they are being hit by a girl. Went back to using TMF with Metal Machinery Toms. People bash the fuck out of TFM, but excluding the Toms, that library had tons of balls. Also as raw as the SD3 library, so processing is not the reason they sound better.

Toontrack always stated that SD2 was RAW, so i guess it was not really mixed but recorded in a much better way with much more efffort.
There are surely some EQ adjustments but i would not call it "mixed" at all.

You also have to differentiate realism and sound, the brass in SD3 sounds
better in terms of realism but the tonal quality is shitty as hell.

There are also a lot of mistakes, which have been partially fixed but some are still present.

There is also an extreme inconsistency, some cymbals sound extremely dull others have a massive noise floor, i think in general that George Massenburg was a bad choice, he surely made himself a name but that's exactly what Toontrack is selling.

I'd rather have a lesser known guy record the drums but then properly but yeah this would not be a good advertisement right?

What drum software would you recommend or do you like?
I'm not very knowledgeable about the mixing process and to me pretty much all of the drum libraries/programs I have sound good (SD2, Slate Drums, Addicitve Drums).

Missed this earlier - honestly, the improvement in realism in the cymbals are, for me, the single biggest improvement in the whole program, so I'm surprised to hear you say this.

S2.0's brass always sounded a little stiff and artificial to me; the tone was... fine, I guess, but the response was very artificial and the cymbals, in particular, I always struggled to get sounding like they'd been played by a real drummer and not sequenced.

S3.0 isn't perfectly real... But the cymbals and hi-hats sound a whole heck of a lot more natural to me. Unmixed, in a rock mix, the drums sound objectively bad... But, that's because they're unmixed. Avatar was processed enough that you could use it right off the bat, whereas the S3.0 kits really do need to be EQ'd, compressed, etc before they start sounding like an album. You can use the presets as a shortcut if you're doing something in a hurry, but I've found you have a LOT more flexibility to color and mix the sounds the way you want with the 3.0 samples, whereas 2.0 was already pretty heavily shaped right off the bat.

So, if you want a drop-in solution, then unless you happen to really like one of the presets, 3.0 isn't for you. If you don't mind/want to mix your own drum sounds, though, and I guess importantly if you know what you're doing (like, if someone sent you raw, unprocessed drum tracks, you could make them sound like a record), then 3.0 is pretty damned impressive. I haven't really done a full hard rock/metal mix with it yet, but on some of the folk-rock stuff I HAVE done with this (the kind of stuff programmed drums usually fall down on) I got a lot of people saying they wouldn't have guessed the drums were sequenced had I not told them it was Superior. And that was programming grooves and fills by hand.

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Are the folk rock tracks you've done with it publicly available somewhere? I'm real curious to hear how it sounds in that context. I've always felt like SD2 sounds great for heavier stuff but the cymbals started to give it away when I use it for softer stuff (which is a lot of what I do nowadays).

it's not easy to recommend anything, it alwas depends on what you are looking for.
For me it's good sounding natural drums that sound as close as possible to the real thing.
In this case i'd day BFD3 but the problem with BFD 3 is the plugin itself, the graphzical interface is confusing and not very
intuitive. SD3 has the best software/interface but i hate the sounds. Addictive Drums 2 sounds great if you are looking for that particular sound.
Steven Slate Drums 4 is outdated and does sound very unnatural, Perfect Drums sounds killer out of the box, especially for metal, rock and pop
but the drums are heavily processed so if you are looking for natural drums it might not be the top choice. Get Good Drums sounds kind of good
but KONTAKT is a pain to work with, same for any other KONTAKT drum library.

IMHO The perfect Drum Sampler would be the software/interface from SD3 and the sounds from BFD3.

The best sounding samples i have heard so far are http://www.mixosaurus.com
You can still buy the samples to use them in KONTAKT but the product is officially discontinued, listen to the sound files,
it's absolutely amazing, because it is ONE kit that blends in with itself, everything fits perfectly, this is how you get great drum sounds.

Toontrack always stated that SD2 was RAW, so i guess it was not really mixed but recorded in a much better way with much more efffort.
There are surely some EQ adjustments but i would not call it "mixed" at all.

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They may have said that, but I disagree with them. You could pull up the default Avatar kit and drop it into a rock mix, and it'd sound fine. That is definitely NOT the case with a raw drum track.

Are the folk rock tracks you've done with it publicly available somewhere? I'm real curious to hear how it sounds in that context. I've always felt like SD2 sounds great for heavier stuff but the cymbals started to give it away when I use it for softer stuff (which is a lot of what I do nowadays).

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No - it's a project I've been working on with my dad and uncle, for their brothers and sisters. I'll try to get some clips up from some of the more-finished mixes in the next couple days, though. I don't want to broadly share anything without getting their go-ahead, but a couple clips from some of the instrumental sections shouldn't be a problem.

They may have said that, but I disagree with them. You could pull up the default Avatar kit and drop it into a rock mix, and it'd sound fine. That is definitely NOT the case with a raw drum track.

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can't disagree with that, just saying what i have read from Toontrack. Generally SD3 seems like it's "too RAW"
some kit pieces simply sound like crap, you can only get a decent sound out of SD3 by blending multiple kicks, snares etc. together
or adding external samples but that's not how it should work IMHO.

can't disagree with that, just saying what i have read from Toontrack. Generally SD3 seems like it's "too RAW"
some kit pieces simply sound like crap, you can only get a decent sound out of SD3 by blending multiple kicks, snares etc. together
or adding external samples but that's not how it should work IMHO.

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That's because it actually IS raw, though, unlike Avatar, which wasn't even close - I mean, listen to the kick, for one, there's no way there isn't a substantial mid scoop on that.

Look at this logically for a second. One of two things is happening here - either George Massenburg and the entire staff at Galexy Studios are hacks who don't know how to record drums... Or, you just don't like totally raw drum sounds that need the same sort of substantial EQ and compression needed to make them sound like a "pro" rock or metal mix that you would expect from a real kit.