I have been in CAP off and on since 1992. A former Cadet and Senior member. Now I have rejoined and I am now a TSGT in CAP. Just finished LVL 2 and continuing on to LVL 3. My question is:

Does anyone know how to be appointed/promoted to Squadron MSGT? according to the REGS as a TSGT I can be appointed to the rank and Title of MSGT. But the regs are very vague and E-Services does not seem to support NCO rank promotions.

I have been in CAP off and on since 1992. A former Cadet and Senior member. Now I have rejoined and I am now a TSGT in CAP. Just finished LVL 2 and continuing on to LVL 3. My question is:

Does anyone know how to be appointed/promoted to Squadron MSGT? according to the REGS as a TSGT I can be appointed to the rank and Title of MSGT. But the regs are very vague and E-Services does not seem to support NCO rank promotions.

Any help on this will be appreciated.

CAPR 35-5 - Para 6-3 Must complete level 3, and have 24 months TIG as TSgt. Would be submitted on a CAPF 2, and requires Wing Commander approval. Figure 1 on page 6 shows the promoting authority for each grade.

That I know but there is a section where being a TSGT I can be appointed up one grade to fill the slot as Squadron MSGT.

Quote

(2) If a vacancy exists, the member selected for that position will be promoted to therank commensurate with that position. Under no circumstances will a member be promotedmore than one grade to fulfill a vacant position (e.g. a CAP SSgt will not be promoted to CAPMSgt for the purpose of filling a vacancy).

Actually TIG for NCO is different. I skipped SM and was promoted straight to SSGT as that was my equivalent rank. so 6 months as SSGT and 1 yr as TSGT. Because this states:

from what I understand its a permanent position that I guess is to help stabilize the squadron as Commanders come and go a Squadron MSGT would keep order and be an adviser to the Commander.

As for the rest of your question, so is everybody else as to who does what and why!! I am trying to figure that out myself. Someone from National needs to pass on info as to how this whole thing is going to work.

As for me, I am doing this because its new and I was NCO in the Navy and want to see how far I can go with CAP!!

from what I understand its a permanent position that I guess is to help stabilize the squadron as Commanders come and go a Squadron MSGT would keep order and be an adviser to the Commander.

As for the rest of your question, so is everybody else as to who does what and why!! I am trying to figure that out myself. Someone from National needs to pass on info as to how this whole thing is going to work.

As for me, I am doing this because its new and I was NCO in the Navy and want to see how far I can go with CAP!!

I am not trying to be rude, but the following may come across as such.

Keep order? You and me both know this is at best a joke, at worst an insult to the hard working volunteer senior and cadet members. Units have done just fine without an "NCO enforcer" for years and years and years.

Let me ask you a question, as one former NCO to another. Every single person in that unit "out ranks" you. The newest 2nd LT in fresh off of level one, if we are now saying grade matters (which IMHO that is what NHQ is saying) let alone those 50 year light birds. So, why suddenly do we NEED an NCO in each unit? There is no enlisted corps, no airman to supervise, no one to be an NCO to.

Every veteran and current service member knows that those senior NCO's on active duty gain and hold respect because they have to. They have to be good at what they do, but in cap, NCO's are just checking the boxes like everyone else. Am I, as a field grade officer now supposed to need an E-8 or E-9 by my side at all times? Have I lost the ability to be (insert duty title here) because I don't have someone in stripes next to me? Am I expected to give a CAP E-9 who has no prior service and only put on stripes in CAP the same respect I give that 30 year AF, USA, USMC,USN E-9?

I am not sure how this is going to work out... I see many issues but no answers.

Not judging any one person, just don't understand the direction that CAP NHQ is taking.

from what I understand its a permanent position that I guess is to help stabilize the squadron as Commanders come and go a Squadron MSGT would keep order and be an adviser to the Commander.

As for the rest of your question, so is everybody else as to who does what and why!! I am trying to figure that out myself. Someone from National needs to pass on info as to how this whole thing is going to work.

As for me, I am doing this because its new and I was NCO in the Navy and want to see how far I can go with CAP!!

I am not trying to be rude, but the following may come across as such.

Keep order? You and me both know this is at best a joke, at worst an insult to the hard working volunteer senior and cadet members. Units have done just fine without an "NCO enforcer" for years and years and years.

Let me ask you a question, as one former NCO to another. Every single person in that unit "out ranks" you. The newest 2nd LT in fresh off of level one, if we are now saying grade matters (which IMHO that is what NHQ is saying) let alone those 50 year light birds. So, why suddenly do we NEED an NCO in each unit? There is no enlisted corps, no airman to supervise, no one to be an NCO to.

Every veteran and current service member knows that those senior NCO's on active duty gain and hold respect because they have to. They have to be good at what they do, but in cap, NCO's are just checking the boxes like everyone else. Am I, as a field grade officer now supposed to need an E-8 or E-9 by my side at all times? Have I lost the ability to be (insert duty title here) because I don't have someone in stripes next to me? Am I expected to give a CAP E-9 who has no prior service and only put on stripes in CAP the same respect I give that 30 year AF, USA, USMC,USN E-9?

I am not sure how this is going to work out... I see many issues but no answers.

Not judging any one person, just don't understand the direction that CAP NHQ is taking.

I understand where you are coming from. As far as "Order" goes, I was not using it in the sense of the word, but to help and keep the squadron going. I know most people in CAP are not military. But having an NCO rank gives people who do not want to be "officers". I know many NCO's who do not want to be "officers", but this also gives people who served a rank they know and are proud of wearing. As far as being outranked, that does not really apply to a volunteer organization. Ranks in CAP are achievements to what you accomplished. With that the respect of that rank you earn goes with it.

I agree CAP does not need an NCO enforcer, that could just go wrong quickly and dry up a squadron real quickly. I see NCO's as managerial positions, they take the load off officers and commanders and deal with things on a different level.

As far as being the low man on the totem pole, I am the DCC, Safety officer, Leadership officer, and other jobs as needed. I am doing them as I am the most qualified in my squadron to hold them. Rank does not really matter.

It is worth noting at this point that any CAP NCO would "outrank" most of the membership. Starting with our terrific cadets, who represent something like 40%, and then add in the significant number of SMs without grade, CSMs, etc.

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt. You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt. He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt. You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt. He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.

I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt. You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt. He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.

I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?

There is no "position" of MSgt. There is a position of "Squadron/Flight NCO", the holder of which is authorized a promotion up to MSgt if all other requirements are met. Lower grades can serve in the position.

Also, there is no option for "meritorious" promotions in the NCO program. "Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are nonwaiverable." (CAPR 35-5, 6-3)

What position does this "squadron MSGT" hold that is so important we need to bump someone up a grade?

To date, no one has ever explained what these squadron, group or wing NCO's will doing other than "being important and must have".

Why are we in such a rush to cram NCO's Into units that have made it fine without them?

I guess I'm confused.

(P.S. For those keeping track, I took 6 months off from cap. I paid my dues today and I am a member again. Not sure how I feel yet, but felt something was missing in life, so I am 60$ lighter.)

No one is in any rush. The promotable NCO positions are not a must have. We understand you are confused.....we are still working on the job discriptions and duty positions. Please be patient.

Is there a time frame of future regs and understandings of the new NCO structure. Because right now its tough, I am asking group and wing leaders and no one can answer my questions?

Thanks

They can't answer you questions because then answers have not been hammered out. Is there a time frame? As Soon As Possible. The NCO committee meets every month or so. We make tweeks...they get sent up...feedback come down....rinse, repeat.

Just because you are put in a Squadron NCO position, one for with MSgt is authorized, doesn't mean that you can be promoted to MSgt unless you meet the other requirements of MSgt. You must be a TSgt, and have the requisite TIG.

What the "one grade maximum" promotion means is that you can't take a current TSgt and appoint him as the NCO Advisor to the Group Commander and make him a SMSgt. He can be bumped to MSgt first, then when the requirements are fulfilled, the SMSgt.

I understand the regs, what little there are of them, but the fundamental question is how to do it. I just got promoted to TSGT, and we have no other NCO's, and I am asking for my sake and my commander at a point in time, how am I and my commander to appoint me to the position Squadron MSGT, I understand if i do not complete minimum requirements, unless I am "meritorious" promoted to the rank of MSGT, that I can be a MSGT. We are just asking and trying to find out a simple answer to the toughest question in CAP.

I am not trying to SMSGT just yet, got to get past this question and MSGT first but as it reads as TSGT I can hold the position as Squadron Msgt? right? wrong? did i make the mistake of trying to ask this question on this board?

There is no "position" of MSgt. There is a position of "Squadron/Flight NCO", the holder of which is authorized a promotion up to MSgt if all other requirements are met. Lower grades can serve in the position.

Also, there is no option for "meritorious" promotions in the NCO program. "Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are nonwaiverable." (CAPR 35-5, 6-3)

Thank you!! That is the answer I think I am looking for. Just looking for clarity on the whole subject.

Thanks again for your input on the matter. This is a subject that needs more clarity on who and what is to happen in the NCO fields.