W.L. Gore/Gore-Tex Question and Answer

Okay folks, I hammered the crew from W.L. Gore with some of the questions you gave me and here’s what their responses were. And while many of the future technologies were kept secret, they say that in the future, they are continuing to focus on developing new products for light-and fast endeavors and increasing durability of its components. One thing to note is that when talking about breathability, it is more in relation to the ability of water molecules to pass through the membrane, and not air….which would be more akin to ventilation and who’s molecules are much larger than water.

Is the Event fabric really more breathable than Gore-Tex?

In some environmental conditions, Event is more breathable than Gore-Tex. What are those conditions? Unfortunately they are in extremely dry conditions that are realistically very hard to find and not when you would probably really be wearing a waterproof/breathable garment. In addition, Gore-Tex is much more durably waterproof…meaning its waterproofness lasts for a much longer time.

One thing W.L. Gore notes is that the placebo effect plays and important role in people’s perception of breathability. They have also done studies where a person is handed two garments and told that one is more breathable than the other, when they are actually the same fabric. The result? People tend to agree that the fabric they were told is more breathable…is…when it realistically and scientifically isn’t.

Is OutDry far more superior to Gore-Tex when used in gloves?

OutDry is a new technology out of Italy in which the a waterproof/breathable membrane is directly bonded to the inside of the gloves shell (as opposed to just being sewed in by the finger tips and wrist), therefore having no dead airspace which can inhibit breathability and will also provide more dexterity since all the layers move together as one.

OutDry is a polyurethane product, and while initially quite waterproof, unfortunately also is inconsistent in it’s waterproof/breathable characteristics and is not nearly as durably waterproof as Gore-Tex. Also, it is impossible to glue a two dimensional fabric to a three dimensional shape without incurring overlaps and empty spaces. Also, due to all the glue involved in the process of affixing the OutDry membrane to the shell, it creates a much stiffer product.

To improve dexterity in gloves that use Gore-Tex, W.L. Gore will be introducing a technology called X-traFit, in which the Gore-Tex membrane is bonded to the glove liner which is then glued in both the palm area, as well as at the finger tips. This provides much less movement between all the layers, making it easier to work with your hands while wearing gloves.

Why don’t more hunting companies use Gore-Tex?

W.L. Gore has recently released a new technology called OptiFade, which has a camouflaged outer fabric. The big to do about this fabric it the camo pattern, which focuses making you less visible to ungulates by focusing on the characteristics of their vision, as opposed to trying to make you blend into the surroundings. This digitally patterned technology is taken from W.L. Gore’s experience working with the US military and making both desert and forest camouflage clothing. Look for Opti-Fade in future hunting outerwear.

What is the point of putting Gore-Tex in full leather boots which don’t breathe anyway?

Well, much like our own skin, leather actually does breath. And putting Gore-Tex in a leather boot is really more about adding waterproofness to the boot…as opposed to adding breathability.

Can W.L. Gore improve the durability of its “durable water-resistant finish” (DWR)?

While W.L. Gore is constantly looking to improve its DWR coating, they do state that in many cases…and with proper care…the DWR finish can be revitalized. This is done by washing the Gore-Tex with a small amount of soap, doubling the rinse cycle, and then putting it in the dryer for a short period of time. While washing the fabric removes dirt, it is the actual drying of the fabric that redistributes the DWR and a gets the ‘pegs’ of the DWR to stand up again…keeping moisture off of the face fabric. For those that don’t have access to a dryer, spray-on products from Nikwax and Grangers can be used to add DWR to the garment.

One thing to note is that although the face fabric may “wet-out” and feel clammy with decreased DWR effectiveness, the Gore-Tex membrane will continue to be waterproof, though may give a clammy feeling to the user.

Why has Gore-Tex abandoned it “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry” promise?

I’m not sure where you heard this, but W.L. Gore continues to back up its “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry” promise which is still printed on it’s hang-tag and will stand behind any product that uses Gore-Tex and provide a warranty if you are unhappy with it’s product…no matter who manufactured it. If you have problems, all you have to do is contact W.L. Gore customer service and they will help you.

Why doesn’t W.L. Gore allow manufacturers to use welded and glued seams (instead of seam-tape), which claim to be lighter and more durable?

While welded and glues seams are strong, testing shows that they do not nearly provide the long term durability of a taped seam. In addition, W.L. Gore believes that the weight saved, which is very small) by using welded and/or glued seams is not worth the higher costs it takes to produce garments with this technology, which requires CAD devices to make.

Is W.L. Gore doing anything to compete with Schoeller c-change, which claims to be able to adjust its breathability according to your exertion level?

While specifics about future Gore-Tex products were not reveled, representatives state the many fabrics out there (including cotton) already have properties that will allow them to expand and contract with relation to temperature…making this characteristic not very revolutionary and probably more marketing hype than anything else.

What is W.L. Gores philosophy in relation to protecting the environment, reducing waste and using non-toxic materials?

W.L. Gores philosophy is science based, revolves around setting lifecycle benchmarks and providing a consistently durable product. Since 1993, W.L. Gore has offered and End of Life recycling program where the Gore-Tex membrane is recovered and reused in other applications. In addition, since 1999, W.L. Gore has set higher standards in relation to chemical limits imposed by the Oeko-Tex, which sets limits on the amount of certain chemicals can be used. In addition, W.L. Gore also uses what is called Gore Cover Composting Laminates, which if I understood correctly, is used to increase the biodegradation process in landfills.

One thing to note is that since the Gore-Tex membrane is far superior to many other waterproof/breathable fabrics out there, it lasts for a much longer time, therefore greatly reducing its overall “footprint” on the environment. In addition, W.L. Gore is very much product based and you will not see its environmental initiatives included in its advertising and marketing programs.

Can you elaborate or share a link to what you are referring to in regards to the US Army tests? While at GORE, they showed us the outfits them make for the military…but it may have been for the Marines and not the Army. Who knows…maybe the Army doesn’t have enough $$$ for afford Gore-Tex?

Also, GORE showed us a demo which showed nearly identical water vapor transport characteristics between Gore-Tex and Event in humid environments. Personally, I think the guarantee from GORE goes a long way.

Nick linked the U.S. Army test in your post about which jackets you’re taking to Aconcagua. If the Army can afford things like kevlar, unmanned drones, and special orders from Patagonia, Wild Things, etc., I’m pretty sure they don’t have any trouble affording Gore-Tex. If I recall correctly, the test was from a couple years ago and they used XCR and not Pro Shell, but the breathability results were pretty stark (in dry, *and* wet conditions). And again, a neutral source. That said, the durability of the WP-ness is an open question in my mind.

Not surprising at all that Gore would knock the competition. Especially given their history of stifling competition.

I’m sure the Mountain Hardwear rep who I was speaking with yesterday about OutDry would have a rebuttal to Gore’s response. 😉

But this statement from the study strikes me as rather odd. Aren’t we interesting in breathability in humid environments…as opposed to dry ones? Am I missing something?

“The reason for doing the testing this way is that some materials like Gore-Tex, Sympatex,
etc., have much better water vapor transport properties when they are in a humid
environment than when they are in a dry environment, relatively speaking.”

That is the same graph that they showed us as GORE and it shows that most fabrics are are heading to the same point when there would actually be precipitation at 100% humidity…right? It’s not actually raining or snowing at .7 humidity…right? And I personally I wouldn’t hold it against GORE for standing up for their product or showing the difference between theres and others. They do agree that Event is more breathable…but just not in the conditions that warrant actually wearing a hardshell.

If I recall, Outdry is a polyurethane based fabric (like , which Gore claims offers much more inconsistency in thickness as well a porosity and much less durable than ePTFEs like Gore-Tex and Event.

I’m supposed to be getting some OutDry gloves in the main…so hopefully I will be able to test them out soon.

I’d like to hear what your experience with those gloves is. I’m thinking about buying a pair myself. OD’s website is alternatively calling it a “membrane” and a “laminate,” but I have no idea if it’s PU. It’s not just a coating though, apparently.

What the MH rep was saying is that the idea is that OutDry keeps the shell fabric (i.e. whatever it’s bonded to… nylon, leather, etc.) from wetting out like what happens with an “insert” glove. This, to me, would be a big deal because in wet storms in the Sierra, I’ll often carry two pairs of gloves of similar weight (lift-served) because the leather gets soaked and then the the fingers freeze (sometimes they freeze pretty stiff if you have to take them off outside). This happens to any pretty much glove I’ve used with an insert… Gore, BD-Dry, whatever.

Steve
Using Grangers or Nikwax on garments and not throwing it in the dryer is bad ju-ju. It will have the opposite of the desired effect and turn it into a sponge. They are heat activated so they need to spend time in the dryer as well.

Everything else you said about the water washing and double rinse cycle is spot on, some pun intended.

The same can be said for holding strong to something (e.g. Gortex) due to its market dominance over the past 10 years….. Horse blinders, so to speak.

I am just excited that there is finally some competition that will drive more product development on both ends of the spectrum. Notwithstanding XCR, IMHO there has not been much change in the Gortex camp for a number of years. Hopefully, eVent will start to push Gortex so the technology gets driven to:

1. Lighter
2. Stronger
3. Breathable
4. Waterproof
5. Durable

Whatever mystery fabric can continue to make the best combo of the above, I am all for. IMHO that is eVent right now. Gortex doesn’t breath that well in my experience using ProShell.

I agree Nick and to be honest, I haven’t tried an Event piece, mainly because the climate is so dry up here and the need for WB layers is rare. I tend to be a bit of a science guy though (much like Gore), so I’m intrigued by the Gore data and the army charts. Either way, I think we both want gear to improve and get better. Like much of the gear out there, nothing is perfect and usually it’s a choice between one thing or the other. For you, breathability seems to be the priority in his selection with Event, while I might be akin to something that is more durably waterproof since I’m rarely charging uphill and sweating wearing a hardshell.

I just received those OutDry gloves today (MH Medusa) and I wouldn’t say they are that stiff. I guess I can see how the OutDry technology might reduce the amount of wetting out a glove gets, but the outer face fabric seems to be able to still wet-out (over time) and freeze up. At least that is what it looks like to me. Hardy coating of DWR though.

Outdry membrane is welded into the shape of a glove and then gets inserted into a finished glove shell. heat and pressure are applied, permanently bonding the glove membrane to the inside of the shell. this is how they avoid overlap and empty spaces. the membrane covers the seams and stitching to create a perfectly waterproof seal.

B/c the membrane is bonded to the shell, there is no floating insert sandwiched between the shell and the gloves inner lining that can slide around. this creates greater dexterity and comfort. bonded membrane leaves more room for insulation without adding bulk

It’s more accurate to say that eVent breathes better than GoreTex under all conditions. Gore gets close only when the average relative humidity reaches 70%. Winter storm conditions in the Tetons and Rockies would seem to favor eVent, since they’re pretty dry.

I picked up an REI eVent running jacket this year, so we’ll see how it does here in Seattle in cool and very humid conditions.

That’s great stuff! I’ve heard similar things. . . Gore may not be initially as breathable asa eVent but after a few days of use they are identical nd the Gore will keep doing it’s thing after a long period of time while the eVent stuff isn’t nearly as durable.

As for Out-dry I’ve heard the concept is awesome but they haven’t gotten it dialed yet. Plus, I hear the gloves aren’t as dexterous as they could be.

For people buying a product, durability and long life in the field is what you want if your a backcountry (climbing/skiing) professional. Gore, to me anyways, and high end gear companies are worth it in the long run.

I was told by Gore Customer Service that the “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry” promise does not apply to garments made before 1990. Why? Gore explained that they had no guarantee in place prior to 1990, hence the claim on my Yak Works cycling jacket was denied.

FWIW, Yak Works is no longer in business, which is why I contacted Gore directly. The jacket in question still looks relatively new, is not damaged, and has been well cared for, per the instructions on the Gore-tex tag. However the jacket no longer retains any waterproof properties. Note: Gore does not dispute the condition of this garment, the fact that it is no longer waterproof or how I have cared for it. At issue was the garment’s date of manufacturer (i.e. prior to 1990).

The Gore rep also stated that for Gore-tex garments manufactured from 1990 – Present their guarantee does not cover garments that are ‘worn-out’ or past their ‘useful life’. Damaged, ripped or torn, garments are also not covered by the guarantee, which makes obvious sense. You will not find ‘worn-out’ or ‘useful life’ mentioned in Gore’s “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry” promise. Furthermore these phrases do not appear in any official Gore’s literature or on their warranty page, so I asked Gore Customer Service to please provide documentation that explains these phrases (see below). Based on my understanding the terms being ‘worn-out’ or ‘past useful life’ are subject to Gore’s interpretation.

My hat is off to Marmot for their customer service. Based on comments made by Gore, Marmot apparently went above and beyond what is required of them.
In Gore’s case I can’t complain too stridently, but I also could not find the niggling details behind their warranty coverage even with my best efforts.
When I asked the Gore Customer Service rep for written documentation stating their position on pre-verus-post 1990 Gore-tex garments, or explaining the terms ‘worn-out’ and ‘useful life’ the discussion became a bit more lively. I actually had to requested the written details of Gore’s official guarantee policy three times. One would expect they had this information on hand, if for nothing more than guidance.

The rep’s response to my initial inquiry was: “I just explained that” (i.e. our policy).
I replied: “Well what you have told me is not documented in any of Gore’s literature nor on your website. I would like to see it in writing.”
Rep repeated: “I just told you our policy, why do you need it in writing?”
My reply:: “I believe I just answered your question. I also I frequent several on-line boards that discuss gear and clothing. Gore’s ‘Life-time’ warranty has been repeatedly cited as a benefit of the fabric, but I believe participants will be interested in some of the specifics of Gore’s warranty.”
There was a very long pregnant pause, and then the rep replied curtly: “We will get that out to you.”
About 5 minutes later I received this via email from the same Gore rep: “I pulled your email to front and center and have forwarded it to our Team for review.”
Huh? I had to ask for clarification, because my requests for written information in regard to Gore’s guarantee had been to him over the phone, not via email, so I wasn’t quite
sure what he was forwarding to the Team for review.
Rep’s response: “Yes, You will receive a response tomorrow” (i.e. 11/10/09).

Well yesterday (11/10/09) came and went without the promised information from W.L. Gore Associates. I will not bother to ask for this information a fourth time. Perhaps someone else can dig it up?

– Editorial on:
I am a 30+ year user of Gore-tex fabric in several dozen items including clothing, sleeping bags and tents. Obviously I have used some of the first Gore-tex fabrics brought to market.
By and large I have been pleased with the performance of items made from Gore-tex, but as stated above nothing lasts forever or a “Life-time” for that matter. Warranties/guarantees are only as good as those who stand behind them and in this case specifics documenting the warranty/guarantee were not easily obtained.
As others have pointed out items made from Gore-tex are not inexpensive and I believe it can be assumed that the price of Gore-tex is reflected in their warranty coverage. Is the extra cost worth it? I guess it depends on your usage, actual performance of the garment, and what one might expect out of the warranty. It’ is the only material I would currently use in a drysuit, but then I have seen how well Kokatat backs it’s products. Potential buyers should be aware that Gore-tex is not a miracle fabric or is it ‘bulletproof’.
I should note that I have one eVent garment, a jacket, but I have not used it long enough to comment on it’s durability. I can state that the manufacturer of that jacket, Pearl Izumi is no longer using eVent, so draw your own conclusions.
In closing I am perturbed that W.L Gore Associates is not more forthcoming in regard to the details behind their stated “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry promise”, because obviously those details are important.
Of course, ymmv.
– Editorial off

I have frequently heard the term “Life-time” used in regard to Gore’s warranty, but it is a bit of a misnomer. You will not find “Life-time” in any of Gore’s official literature, nor on their website. I will also note that in my recent discussions (phone/email) with Gore they never used that phrase. With that in mind, what follows are my experiences in regard to Gore’s warranty and “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry” promise.

I’ve recently had both positive and negative Gore-tex warranty claims. Positive when dealing directly with the manufacturer of the garment, but not quite as satisfying when dealing with W. L. Gore Associates, maker of Gore-tex membrane.

In August I returned two Gore-tex garments (parka and pants) manufactured in 1979 to Marmot Mountain Works. That date is not a misprint. Both garments were 30 years-old! Marmot actually notified me of the manufacturing date. I couldn’t remember. Marmot actually cited Gore’s ‘Life-time warranty’, and replaced both these pieces with items of comparable value. Two thumbs-up to Marmot.

‘Inspired’ by Marmot’s actions and comments here, I also attempted to file a warranty claim directly with Gore on a 1980’s Yak Works Gore-tex cycling jacket, but there were some details of Gore’s “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry” promise that I was unaware of. As most of you know, the devil can be in the small print and that’s if you can find said small print.

I was told by Gore Customer Service that the “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry” promise does not apply to garments made before 1990. Why? Gore explained that they had no guarantee in place prior to 1990, hence the claim on my Yak Works cycling jacket was denied.

FWIW, Yak Works is no longer in business, which is why I contacted Gore directly. The jacket in question still looks relatively new, is not damaged, and has been well cared for, per the instructions on the Gore-tex tag. However the jacket no longer retains any waterproof properties. Note: Gore does not dispute the condition of this garment, the fact that it is no longer waterproof or how I have cared for it. At issue was the garment’s date of manufacturer (i.e. prior to 1990).

The Gore rep also stated that for Gore-tex garments manufactured from 1990 – Present their guarantee does not cover garments that are ‘worn-out’ or past their ‘useful life’. Damaged, ripped or torn, garments are also not covered by the guarantee, which makes obvious sense. You will not find ‘worn-out’ or ‘useful life’ mentioned in Gore’s “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry” promise. Furthermore these phrases do not appear in any official Gore’s literature or on their warranty page, so I asked Gore Customer Service to please provide documentation that explains these phrases (see below). Based on my understanding the terms being ‘worn-out’ or ‘past useful life’ are subject to Gore’s interpretation.

My hat is off to Marmot for their customer service. Based on comments made by Gore, Marmot apparently went above and beyond what is required of them.
In Gore’s case I can’t complain too stridently, but I also could not find the niggling details behind their warranty coverage even with my best efforts.
When I asked the Gore Customer Service rep for written documentation stating their position on pre-verus-post 1990 Gore-tex garments, or explaining the terms ‘worn-out’ and ‘useful life’ the discussion became a bit more lively. I actually had to requested the written details of Gore’s official guarantee policy three times. One would expect they had this information on hand, if for nothing more than guidance.

The rep’s response to my initial inquiry was: “I just explained that” (i.e. our policy).
I replied: “Well what you have told me is not documented in any of Gore’s literature nor on your website. I would like to see it in writing.”
Rep repeated: “I just told you our policy, why do you need it in writing?”
My reply:: “I believe I just answered your question. I also I frequent several on-line boards that discuss gear and clothing. Gore’s ‘Life-time’ warranty has been repeatedly cited as a benefit of the fabric, but I believe participants will be interested in some of the specifics of Gore’s warranty.”
There was a very long pregnant pause, and then the rep replied curtly: “We will get that out to you.”
About 5 minutes later I received this via email from the same Gore rep: “I pulled your email to front and center and have forwarded it to our Team for review.”
Huh? I had to ask for clarification, because my requests for written information in regard to Gore’s guarantee had been to him over the phone, not via email, so I wasn’t quite
sure what he was forwarding to the Team for review.
Rep’s response: “Yes, You will receive a response tomorrow” (i.e. 11/10/09).

Well yesterday (11/10/09) came and went without the promised information from W.L. Gore Associates. I will not bother to ask for this information a fourth time. Perhaps someone else can dig it up?

– Editorial on:
I am a 30+ year user of Gore-tex fabric in several dozen items including clothing, sleeping bags and tents. Obviously I have used some of the first Gore-tex fabrics brought to market.
By and large I have been pleased with the performance of items made from Gore-tex, but as stated above nothing lasts forever or a “Life-time” for that matter. Warranties/guarantees are only as good as those who stand behind them and in this case specifics documenting the warranty/guarantee were not easily obtained.
As others have pointed out items made from Gore-tex are not inexpensive and I believe it can be assumed that the price of Gore-tex is reflected in their warranty coverage. Is the extra cost worth it? I guess it depends on your usage, actual performance of the garment, and what one might expect out of the warranty. It’ is the only material I would currently use in a drysuit, but then I have seen how well Kokatat backs it’s products. Potential buyers should be aware that Gore-tex is not a miracle fabric or is it ‘bulletproof’.
I should note that I have one eVent garment, a jacket, but I have not used it long enough to comment on it’s durability. I can state that the manufacturer of that jacket, Pearl Izumi is no longer using eVent, so draw your own conclusions.
In closing I am perturbed that W.L Gore Associates is not more forthcoming in regard to the details behind their stated “Guaranteed to Keep You Dry promise”, because obviously those details are important.
Of course, ymmv.
– Editorial off

I received a personal phone call on 11/12/09 from W.L Gore Associates. It was the head of Gore’s Consumer Outreach/Warranty Resolution for North America.
Our phone conversation was a long one, well over an hour, so I will try to net our discussion down as best I can.

An overview of the topics covered in the phone call:
– The history of W.L Gore Associates and Gore-tex itself (Gore makes many products, but only garments carry the Gore-tex brand).
– The history of the Gore-tex warranty and guarantee.
– The term “Life-time” when applied to a warranty.
– Clothing manufacturer’s versus Gore’s warranty.
– One of Gore’s main concerns when it comes to customer satisfaction with Gore-tex.
– My personal experiences and expectations when I called into Gore Customer Service.
– Details of the Gore-tex Waterproof guarantee or warranty, and supporting documentation, including the Gore website.

Now for the details.

– History of Gore-tex:
Why did the rep go into the history of Gore-tex? Because without it as a context one would not understand how they developed their warranty/guarantee.

– Warranty History:
Gore did not institute a warranty or waterproof guarantee on Gore-tex until late 1989. Why? When they brought Gore-tex to market in 1976 they had a product that worked (waterproof and breathable), but they still had not solved all the technical issues with making a fabric/laminate system that would last. These issues included: bonding the Gore-tex laminate to the fabric without delamination or failure; seam sealing; the durability of seam tape; and lastly, obtaining DOUs from their customers to manufacture Gore-tex garments to specific standards. Standards that would meet or exceed customer expectations for the fabric. Bottom line: Gore will not sell their product to a customer who will not agree to Gore’s manufacturing standards and yes, they have lost some customers (garment manufacturers) over the years. The Waterproof guarantee went into effect in late 1989 is still enforce at Gore over 20 years later. The rep confirmed that Gore-tex garments make prior to 1990 (fall of 1989 to be exact) are not covered by Gore’s guarantee.

– “Life-time” term:
Gore does not use the term “Life-time in regard to their warranty. The rep told me that initially he had believed that Gore had never used “Life-time”. However, he did note a response to my posting on another board. In that discussion an individual indicated that they were in possession of several old Gore-tex garment hang tags marked with “Lifetime Limited Warranty”. The rep said that he would like to spent some time researching the previous usage of “Life-time” in the Gore warranty even if only to improve his understanding of the warranty’s history.
As some have suggested above, the rep indicated that “Life-time” is a very hard phrase to define and then wrap a guarantee around. Are you talking the life-time of the individual who made the purchase; the garment; or the fabric itself? The rep and I agreed that my case is just a bit outside of the bell curve. He had never seen usage like mine. For those who are interested, the rep never tried to suggest or define how many years anyone should expect a Gore-tex garment to last. More about usage under ‘One of Gore’s concerns’ below.

– Clothing manufacturer’s versus Gore’s warranty:
The rep emphasized that there can be important differences between the manufacturer’s warranty and Gore’s Waterproof guarantee. As already mentioned Gore’s guarantee has been in effect for over two decades. Gore is well aware of Marmot’s “Life-time” warranty. Gore and Marmot have had a close business relationship over the years. Marmot was one of Gore’s first two commercial customers back in 1976. Gore’s waterproof guarantee usually works very well for the end user and they receive far more accolades from customers than complaints.

– One of Gore’s main concerns when it comes to customer satisfaction with Gore-tex:
Maybe I should title this ‘The Main Concern’? The rep did not use that phraseology, but he only singled out one customer service issue when it came to their warranty.
It is not the longevity of a Gore-tex garment or life expectancy. The rep used the formal term “Fitness for Use”.
The place where Gore Customer Service sees problems and the potential for problems are at the point-of-sale. Did the retailer sell the right Gore-tex product to the customer?
I believe he used the well known phrase, “You don’t take a knife to a gun fight”.
Example One: one poster here cited a $100 Cabela’s jacket. Gore is aware of that product. It is a nice garment and is great for around town use. It IS NOT intended for alpine ascents or peak bagging in the Adirondacks. It simply will not hold up, however Gore customer service must field calls when a customer complains that their Gore-tex jacket ‘fell apart’. The rep said that customers can often be attracted to the Gore-tex brand, but purchase a garment based on style, color and cost, but regrettably not intended use.
Example Two: All Gore-tex drysuit owners can appreciate this one, particular if your suit has those highly desirable Gore-tex socks. One does not go running around the rocky shores of Maine or the approach to the launch point in just your drysuit socks. You need to wear protective over-boots. Yeah, that would seem to be common sense, but I have seen people do it. Then they wonder why their $900+ dry suit leaks.
This matter is important enough to Gore that it has put together a training program to educate their retailers on “Fitness for Use”.
In summary the majority of Gore-tex customers are happy with their garments. If Gore sees problems they usually involve “Fitness for Use”.

– My Experiences and Expectations:
I have already documented the details of the experience I had in my initial contact with Gore, and the expectation that they would “do something positive” after my Marmot experience.
The head of Gore’s Consumer Outreach/Warranty Resolution addressed my concerns as follows:
1) He accepted full responsibility in regard to my customer service experiences. He never made the discussion about me. It was about “How can we at Gore do better?”.
2) He apologized for the delay in contacting me.
3) He apologized that my initial call to Gore Customer Service ever went any further that it has. “We should have handled your concerns then. It is my responsibility to make sure our people do that”.
4) He agreed that current Gore documentation and their website does not adequately explain the details/limits of their guarantee to the end user or retailer. He will endeavor to correct that.
5) He clearly told me that I was under no obligation to post our discussion here. This gentlemen took more than an hour of his time to spend with me, so at the very least I can do is document the resolution here.
6) The rep generously offered me a replacement Gore-tex cycling jacket of my choice even though it is clearly outside the scope of their normal guarantee (made prior to 1990).

– Details of the Gore-tex Waterproof guarantee or warranty.
See the following post.

(Text copied from the email I received from Gore with their permission)

Hi,
Thank you for taking the time to chat with me this afternoon. Now that we have an accurate understanding of one another’s positions on this issue (shewww), let’s go to work and deal with the issue appropriately.

As promised, Here is a copy of the text contained in our Guaranteed To Keep You Dry® Promise, as you have pointed out, there is no mention of the date in which this pledge was implemented on either our site or the product literature, hopefully you will find the GORE-TEX® Fabric Innovation Timeline, also attached, a useful tool in “squaring” this issue away. As Discussed, 1976-1985 basically no warranty expressed or implied, 1985-1989 3 yr. Waterproof, 1990-Present below……..

Our Guaranteed To Keep You Dry® Promise

If you are not completely satisfied with the waterproofness, windproofness, or breathability of our GORE-TEX® product then we will repair it, replace it, or refund your purchase price.

Realistic Expectations

As long as your GORE-TEX® product is not at the end of its useful life then it will be considered to be “under warranty”. Useful life means that the garment is not completely worn out or damaged / in need of repair.

*Please note that our current warranty only applies to GORE-TEX® Garments and Footwear manufactured during and after 1990. This was when our Guaranteed To Keep You Dry® promise was conceived and implemented. Products manufactured before this time had limited warranties due to the technologies available.

Hi Steve. Thanks for the interesting post about Gore-Tex. However, you’ve posted a completely one-sided and biased opinion about OutDry and we would like to add our comments.

Gore-Tex’s statement that, “it is impossible to glue a two dimensional fabric to a three dimensional shape without incurring overlaps and empty spaces” is UTTERLY FALSE. Our patented process directly laminates a waterproof/breathable membrane to the inside layer of a glove or boot with a special machine developed through years of research and design.

We are glad you have already received one pair of Mountain Hardwear gloves with OutDry and find it not stiff, so one of the Gore false point is already settled. Furthermore, as you’ll see when you personally test gloves with our technology, OutDry is actually durably waterproof as it does not rely upon a floating inner liner that is susceptible to rips, tears or wear over time.

Meantime, it is funny to read Gore comments on Polyurethane lower breathability and durability since PU is largely used in Gore-tex membranes (as Gore technicians explain very clearly in interviews: “In Gore-Tex fabric a microporous bi-component membrane is combined with a solid monolithic hydrophilic film to create a durable, waterproof barrier, which is breathable.”)
By reading this , it seems Gore -Tex PTFE membrane is made durable and waterproof thanks to the solid Polyurethane monolithic hydrophilic film (also explained well on the REI website: http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/rainwear+how+it+works.html )

At this point in time, we are still a small company and we don’t have the resources to fly you to our facility, show you our technology and wine and dine you for a few days. But we are confident in our innovation and trust you’ll find we make a superior product when you have a chance to test it yourself.

thanks for your input matteo! i’m sure outdry is a great product and i don’t want to get into bashing one technology over the other. BUT…gore uses expanded PTFE…which is different that a sprayed on PU coating…right? Or am i wrong? they seem to look pretty different under a microscope.

thanks and for your kind feedback (and for taking time replying from Aconcagua base camp !). It was not my aim as well to start a debate about what’s the best between Gore-tex and OutDry.

About your question, I hope to be correct saying that Gore-Tex takes a plain expanded PTFE membrane and attaches it to a thin protective polyurethane (PU) film, creating what is known in the rainwear industry as a ‘bicomponent laminate’. The PU layer is solid and without pores (technically speaking, monolithic, exactly like the OutDry membrane) and shields the ePTFE from body oils and other contaminants.

For sure Gore-tex can be more precise in explaining you how they use PU in their membrane and why they need it if, as they told to you “a PU product, while initially quite waterproof, is inconsistent in it’s waterproof/breathable characteristics..”

matteo, i believe Gore’s though on pu coatings is that there are inconsistencies in its application to a face fabric, since there inevitably are thin and thick areas that are created when it is applied. therefore, breatheability is not the same throughout the product???? adding in a layer of e-PTFE allows for more consistency…and is more seems to be more durable. i think. 🙂

Gore likes the idea that a PU film is so inconsistent that it effects the MVTR values of the fabric over areas. In the past there were greater inconsistencies, and in less expensive films I am expect you can find that today. Generally high end performance membranes, whether ePTFE or PU, are very consistent. The technology to produce a film with a controlled thickness as well as the constant evolution of polymers – especially in PU – makes the claim by Gore only a point of contention and impractical in comparing materials.

With our PU membrane outerwear garments, as with OutDry, we have remarkably high, consistent performance. Right now, our line of outerwear products in both our Conduit laminated packages and Gore ePTFE, perform exceptionally well. Our highest performing shells in durability and MVTR testing is equal between the two, by the way.

GTX is a very good product in the market. It is true that at the customer level you don’t know where the brands alternative comes from. You have to trust the brand like you trust Gore, right? MHW is diligent in sourcing premium products, rigorously tested, with every supplier, in order to bring the best product to our customer. I feel our customers know that.

Gore can be very restrictive and limiting and claim that they know better what the manufacturers should produce and how to produce it. It keeps a level of similarity in Gore products in the market. I believe this is their biggest challenge.

In the world of alternatives, as the case with OutDry, there is much more freedom to explore and develop products that achieve the performance attributes for the greatest benefit for a user and their activity.

thanks for your comments gaston. i in no way want to imply that outdry and/or mhw are of poor quality or don’t perform to the highest level…as i am sure and know they do.

as always, each and every brand wants to portray their product as the best…or at least better than others. in reality…i like arc’teryx products best. granted, they use gore-tex solely in their waterproof breathable products. why? i’m not sure…but i know they work great.

in addition, having choices and giving the customer options is at the very least a good thing and stirs advancements in technilogy and competative prices. which in the end…is best for the consumer.