Mgreen15 wrote:How many people would actually be walking around Deep Ellum in the middle of the afternoon on any weekend from late May to late September?

It's definitely possible. Palm Springs gets hotter than Dallas in the summer, but that doesn't stop folks from shopping around, hanging out on patios, attending art festivals and street markets, and so on. There just needs to be some shade, and misters don't hurt.

Yeah, and I mentioned Boston's Newbury Street post--the weather there is pretty much terrible for one reason or another every day, except for 3 days in May and 3 days in February. (Maybe I'm exaggerating for comedic effect, but not by much.) Doesn't stop anybody from hitting the Newbury Street shops all day long.

Also. Yes. Shade. Planting trees can be a thing. Get on it, Deep Ellum.

I'm not sure what is meant by different consumer habits. Speaking for my demographic, women in their 20s and 30s want to buy pretty much all the same stuff: clothes, home goods, gifts, self-care services, unique experiences. Although habits are also shaped by what is made available (i.e., mall chains like the Gap vs. quirky, instagrammable boutiques full of plants and Millennial pink midcentury furniture). There's no reason for Dallas to limit itself to Ann Taylor Lofts and Banana Republics, or even the new generation of formerly-niche, now-ubiquitous mall stores (think Lululemon and Warby Parker).

Last edited by emmasensei on 08 Feb 2019 14:14, edited 3 times in total.

Following the influx of more outsider nightlife spots to Deep Ellum (think Bottled Blonde from Arizona and forthcoming Punch Bowl Social from Denver), a clubby “Asian fusion” restaurant from Miami has also set its sights on the neighborhood.

Komodo will debut at Deep Ellum’s western border with Downtown in the forthcoming Epic building, according to CultureMap. For those who have somehow missed it, Epic is the flashy new glass-clad high-rise office complex currently under construction at the corner of Good Latimer and Pacific Avenue. From the same guy behind two other Miami clubs, Komodo will reportedly take up a massive 20,000 square-feet of space for the interior lounge-dining room and another 2,500 square-foot for a patio.

Following the influx of more outsider nightlife spots to Deep Ellum (think Bottled Blonde from Arizona and forthcoming Punch Bowl Social from Denver), a clubby “Asian fusion” restaurant from Miami has also set its sights on the neighborhood.

Komodo will debut at Deep Ellum’s western border with Downtown in the forthcoming Epic building, according to CultureMap. For those who have somehow missed it, Epic is the flashy new glass-clad high-rise office complex currently under construction at the corner of Good Latimer and Pacific Avenue. From the same guy behind two other Miami clubs, Komodo will reportedly take up a massive 20,000 square-feet of space for the interior lounge-dining room and another 2,500 square-foot for a patio.

^ Looking at the article, this place looks awful IMO. I know Deep Ellum has been drifting away from it's old image for some time now, but this will seemingly put it over the top. Perhaps the charm will move over to East Quarter or Exposition Park. Or hop the highway over to The Cedars. There's still plenty to love about Deep Ellum, but....yikes.

Following the influx of more outsider nightlife spots to Deep Ellum (think Bottled Blonde from Arizona and forthcoming Punch Bowl Social from Denver), a clubby “Asian fusion” restaurant from Miami has also set its sights on the neighborhood.

Komodo will debut at Deep Ellum’s western border with Downtown in the forthcoming Epic building, according to CultureMap. For those who have somehow missed it, Epic is the flashy new glass-clad high-rise office complex currently under construction at the corner of Good Latimer and Pacific Avenue. From the same guy behind two other Miami clubs, Komodo will reportedly take up a massive 20,000 square-feet of space for the interior lounge-dining room and another 2,500 square-foot for a patio.

This seems troubling.

Sounds douchetastic. The food offerings at the Miami location don't look like anything that hasn't been tried, and is getting tired (Asian fusion). At least this is on the outskirts of Deep Ellum, there's still plenty to love about DE!

exelone31 wrote:^ Looking at the article, this place looks awful IMO. I know Deep Ellum has been drifting away from it's old image for some time now, but this will seemingly put it over the top. Perhaps the charm will move over to East Quarter or Exposition Park. Or hop the highway over to The Cedars. There's still plenty to love about Deep Ellum, but....yikes.

True, but it's a part of "The Epic". I don't think anyone here expected anything involving The Epic to really be fitting with the character of Deep Ellum. This isn't a knock on The Epic, because I love the development, and am extremely happy that it is here, I'm just saying I always viewed it as more of an extension of Downtown, rather than being a part of Deep Ellum.

I would like to think that places like this can find a way to coexist with the existing nightlife in Deep Ellum, rather than 'chase away' current bars and bar patrons to new areas. Deep Ellum is far from being completely built out, so perhaps it can continue to grow and support all types of venues. I guess it could be similar to the way Austin has both West 6th and Dirty 6th not terribly far apart from each other, but also each area is still able to retain its distinct character and personality.

Last edited by DPatel304 on 19 Feb 2019 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

I took this around 4:30pm on 02-26-19, heading west on Elm Street at Good Latimer. The impact this project has on the feel of this end of Deep Ellum is enormous ... it literally makes it feel like Downtown has now reached into Deep Ellum as the residential building in particular towers over the streetscape. The scope and scale of that effect is lost in a photograph but very real in person. Looking good!

If you pull up the KDC webcam you get a fairly good feel, imagine this plus the proposed Hines office tower. One can get a sense that DE will one day be surrounded by a mix of higher density residential and office products.

It's an interesting dichotomy. Like so many changes in Deep Ellum it's liked by the Internet armchair quarterbacks who don't live in the neighborhood, yet almost universally detested by the people in the neighborhood it's in.

The only person I know who's looking forward to this development is the owner of the 7-Eleven franchise across the street.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:It's an interesting dichotomy. Like so many changes in Deep Ellum it's liked by the Internet armchair quarterbacks who don't live in the neighborhood, yet almost universally detested by the people in the neighborhood it's in.

The only person I know who's looking forward to this development is the owner of the 7-Eleven franchise across the street.

As someone who used to live in Deep Ellum, I have to concur. The sentiment for the original Deep Ellum crowd is negative. While the development has brought tremendous revenue to the bars and businesses, t has also killed the atmosphere that Deep Ellum was once known for. It really isn't as fantastic as it once was. Now it has become overpriced and consumed by trust fund kids.

Isn't the change in Deep Ellum just more of a sign of the changing times, more than anything? The whole grunge/metal/punk rock thing isn't as popular as it was back in the 90s, so Deep Ellum today is just a reflection on how society has changed.

joshua.dodd wrote:As someone who used to live in Deep Ellum, I have to concur. The sentiment for the original Deep Ellum crowd is negative. While the development has brought tremendous revenue to the bars and businesses, t has also killed the atmosphere that Deep Ellum was once known for. It really isn't as fantastic as it once was. Now it has become overpriced and consumed by trust fund kids.

I can totally see how the current dynamic is a bummer to longtime residents, but clearly this iteration of Deep Ellum is more sustainable than what came before.

ndtexan wrote:Quick question because I really don't know - where do longtime residents of Deep Ellum actually live? The only residences that have been around awhile which come to mind are the Adam Hats lofts.

Ignoring the new developments like Broadstone Ambrose and the Case Building, the most visible are converted warehouses like Murray Lofts, Deep Ellum Lofts, Futura Lofts, 3333 Elm Lofts and Mitchell Lofts.

There are also less visible properties. For example, most of the Malcolm X/Main/Commerce/Walton block is ground floor retail with residential above it. And there a surprising number of conversions and townhomes around Exposition Park.

What most people don't know about are the smaller, individual residences. Almost every block has people living on it, it's just not obvious. My small block on Commerce at Hall has about 50 residents. Even the busiest section of Elm Street has residences. https://goo.gl/maps/jWSrveSkKx52https://goo.gl/maps/HXsiipJtdP12. And there are lots of folks living on the side streets like Walton, Clover and Virgil.

DPatel304 wrote:Isn't the change in Deep Ellum just more of a sign of the changing times, more than anything? The whole grunge/metal/punk rock thing isn't as popular as it was back in the 90s, so Deep Ellum today is just a reflection on how society has changed.

This has nothing to do with it at all. It's the mentality of the people, which is entitled and even aggressive. I've had interesting conversations with my Lyft drivers about Deep Ellum. Most tell me that they avoid it at all cost because of said reasons. Nonetheless, the Dallas housing market is a house of cards that's slowing down anyways.

Last edited by joshua.dodd on 19 Mar 2019 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

joshua.dodd wrote:As someone who used to live in Deep Ellum, I have to concur. The sentiment for the original Deep Ellum crowd is negative. While the development has brought tremendous revenue to the bars and businesses, t has also killed the atmosphere that Deep Ellum was once known for. It really isn't as fantastic as it once was. Now it has become overpriced and consumed by trust fund kids.

I can totally see how the current dynamic is a bummer to longtime residents, but clearly this iteration of Deep Ellum is more sustainable than what came before.

joshua.dodd wrote:As someone who used to live in Deep Ellum, I have to concur. The sentiment for the original Deep Ellum crowd is negative. While the development has brought tremendous revenue to the bars and businesses, t has also killed the atmosphere that Deep Ellum was once known for. It really isn't as fantastic as it once was. Now it has become overpriced and consumed by trust fund kids.

I can totally see how the current dynamic is a bummer to longtime residents, but clearly this iteration of Deep Ellum is more sustainable than what came before.

Keyword is sustainable. This is debatable.

So what was sustainable in the past that isn't now? Aren't some bars closing because they don't get enough traffic only on the weekends? I heard the idle rye owners say this in news story.

Adding more residential to the area can help sustain some of these new and old businesses and will also help Deep Ellum offer more businesses for the residents (not just bars). That imo will help foster a more sustainable neighborhood.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:There are also less visible properties. For example, most of the Malcolm X/Main/Commerce/Walton block is ground floor retail with residential above it. And there a surprising number of conversions and townhomes around Exposition Park.

What most people don't know about are the smaller, individual residences. Almost every block has people living on it, it's just not obvious. My small block on Commerce at Hall has about 50 residents. Even the busiest section of Elm Street has residences. https://goo.gl/maps/jWSrveSkKx52https://goo.gl/maps/HXsiipJtdP12. And there are lots of folks living on the side streets like Walton, Clover and Virgil.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:So what was sustainable in the past that isn't now? Aren't some bars closing because they don't get enough traffic only on the weekends? I heard the idle rye owners say this in news story.

It's easy to blame the lack of crowds, but it's BS.

Idle Rye had inconsistent food. Sometimes great, frequently bleh. A restaurant won't make it anywhere like that. The Bitter End, which replaced it, seems to be doing very well. The Armory, just a block down the street, opened about the same time as Idle Rye. It is always packed -- and the owners have done well enough that they've opened Ruins.

A good example is Local. You never hear about them. Hell, you've probably never even heard of them. They get almost zero press. They're in a secondary location and you could easily walk by them without noticing them. But they've been successful for over 15 years selling $$$ comfort food. If you have a good product people will come, and they will come back.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:So what was sustainable in the past that isn't now? Aren't some bars closing because they don't get enough traffic only on the weekends? I heard the idle rye owners say this in news story.

It's easy to blame the lack of crowds, but it's BS.

Idle Rye had inconsistent food. Sometimes great, frequently bleh. A restaurant won't make it anywhere like that. The Bitter End, which replaced it, seems to be doing very well. The Armory, just a block down the street, opened about the same time as Idle Rye. It is always packed -- and the owners have done well enough that they've opened Ruins.

A good example is Local. You never hear about them. Hell, you've probably never even heard of them. They get almost zero press. They're in a secondary location and you could easily walk by them without noticing them. But they've been successful for over 15 years selling $$$ comfort food. If you have a good product people will come, and they will come back.

The Armoury makes great food. So that helps. And agreed about Local, I love it, but the only time I've found it hard to get a reservation is on Valentine's Day. Great great food, awesome ambiance, just great overall.

eburress wrote:I can totally see how the current dynamic is a bummer to longtime residents, but clearly this iteration of Deep Ellum is more sustainable than what came before.

Keyword is sustainable. This is debatable.

So what was sustainable in the past that isn't now? Aren't some bars closing because they don't get enough traffic only on the weekends? I heard the idle rye owners say this in news story.

Adding more residential to the area can help sustain some of these new and old businesses and will also help Deep Ellum offer more businesses for the residents (not just bars). That imo will help foster a more sustainable neighborhood.

In theory, yes, this should be a sustainable model. However, current economic indicators are showing an inevitable slowdown in the market. And the housing market is already over valued has high as 20%, which is unsustainable. The problem is that the market is being overbuilt with luxury units.

If the market is overbuilt with luxury apartment units, what is the historical solution based on previous cycles?

Do they eventually convert to condos? Are the prices lowered to reflect softer market conditions? If the prices are lowered does this make it even harder to rent out older less luxurious units? Do they sit vacant for a while further prolonging the residential RE market downturn?

By giving a month or two of free rent prorated over the term of the lease the tenants get a reduced payment and the developers get to show the units leased at proforma rates to keep the wolves, er, I mean the lenders at bay.

Condo conversions -- which are rare in this region -- come in strong markets. I'm sure there have been some this cycle, but I sure don't recall any.

DPatel304 wrote:Isn't the change in Deep Ellum just more of a sign of the changing times, more than anything? The whole grunge/metal/punk rock thing isn't as popular as it was back in the 90s, so Deep Ellum today is just a reflection on how society has changed.

This is way off base. I grew up in the 90’s punk scene and have stayed involved over the years and it’s way bigger now than it ever has been. The lack of DIY spaces and places like the old red blood club is why punk/metal has pretty much moved out of DE though shows still do come thru there pretty often.

We were in Dallas visiting last week and went to BrainDead Brewing and I couldn’t believe how different the area looked