>The problem is, that very few people can put these incidents in proper>perspective. There is no data, nobody is monitoring these social injustices>carefully. The statistical yearbooks are very vague on these.
Quite true that the statistical yearbooks are vague, as they are outdated by
the
time the come out. If you want to look at timely research concerning social
injustices (of which there are many, i.e. housing privatisation), most Hungaria
n
universities and institutes, often in collaboration with Western partners
and the EU,
are conducting some really excellent research.
References can be provided to those interested.
BTW, can anyone tell me the status of the 'Jewish property' restitution debate?
Miska
______________________________________________
Michael James Douglas
Department of Applied Geography and Planning
Utrecht University
P.O. Box 80115, 3508 TC Utrecht
The Netherlands
E-Mail:
______________________________________________
-dare to be different-

On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
<SNIP>
> No taxation without representation and no representation without taxation.>> Joe Szalai>
+++ Joe you are missing the point. How would YOU like to be
disenfranchised while you were out of Canada for any reason during an
election and could not vote?

Agnes and J.Zs. are write. But they are too far. There was a war in 1956
in Hungary too. And they are /and they children/ too in our hierarchy.
Let's talk about this around okt 23.
On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, aheringer wrote:
> In article >,> says...> >> >J.Szalai wrote:> >> >>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi> war> >>criminals. They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail> and> >>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada. They say that> society> >>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.> >>> >>I disagree. I think that there should be no law of limitation on war> >>criminals.> >>> >>What do you think? Should there be limitations on hunting Nazi war> criminals?> >>> >>Joe Szalai> >> >Unfortunatelly I don't know the the English version of the expression> >'elevules'. As far as I know most country has the law that war crimes> >never 'evulnek el'. I think this is right, however I disagree with> >G.Farkas, there should be mercy. We should not treat the war criminals> >in the same manner as they treated their victims. Otherwise there is> >no difference between them criminals and judges.> >> >I would like to attach one more question to Joe's one. Most probable> >everybody heard about the crimes of Stalin and his executors (Berija,> etc).> >Do you think they should be treated the same way as their nazi> >collegues, or not. Should be or should have been a nurnberg-like> >trial for these guys or not.> >One example, probable everybody knows what Katyn was. Briefly, the NKVD> >(the ancestor of the KGB) executed ~10,000 Polish officer captured> >during the fall of 1939. This is a typical war crime in my opinion.> >I heard once (I cannot support this), that the Poles suspect that the> >officer who commanded the execution still alive and live in Moscow.> >Also this ~10,000 polish is only a part of the captured Polish> prisoner..> >A considerable portion of them (~5,000 -- 10,000) is simple missing.> >Nobody knows where they are (well I have some idea).> >> >J.Zs>> Everybody who is guilty of these crimes should be tried regardless what> colour shirt or ties they wore. However, I believe all those former> soviet KGB people are still in the Russian hierarchy, so, who will try> them?>> Agnes>

Liviu Iordache wrote:
>Has it ever crossed your mind that, in the past years, Hungarian>historical literature was extremely biased from a nationalistic>viewpoint, exactly as it was its Romanian counterpart?
Tsk, tsk...did I touch a nerve? This reaction is disappointing.
Did you not notice my comment about *the influence of my forebears*?
Getting shirty and replying with tit for tat point scoring is not
terribly productive!
<irrelevant stuff snipped>..
>Nevertheless, one should acknowledge that Romanian language was>subjected to a conscious process of re-Latinization, that started in>the 17th century, with the writings of deacon Coresi. With him, the>spelling of "rumi^n" gradually shifted toward "roma^n." However, that>did not changed a bit its meaning.
Okay, this is much more interesting and informative, thank you! This
leads to the comments further on...but you don't say anything about
ancient surviving dialects, etc.
>> so I>>suspect that the Byzantine empire from Constantinople allowed the Latin>>tongue to develop as an *indigenous* tongue of the region long after the>>Roman Empire split up (what do you know or think about this?).>I think, you might wanna clarify a bit "the Byzantine empire allowing>Latin to develop long after the Roman Empire split up" stuff.
Okay, the later empire from the accession of Commodus to the death of
Theodosius 395 AD, gradually split with Constantine establishing the
new capital of the Roman world at Byzantium, aka Constantinople (because
this new capital was much more of a military stronghold than Rome in
that time when the empire was splitting in two); the centre of Roman
civilization shifted to Byzantium providing a launch pad for adventures
into Asia (as well as Crusades)...in other words, I'm suggesting that
the Rumini language was born from and nutured by the long Byzantine
influence in the area (as opposed to earlier Dacian-Roman claims).
>>It is interesting that long periods of Russian, Lithuanian, Turkish>>Ottoman and Hungarian control of territories now known as Romania did>>not snuff out the usage and development of that Latin offshoot.>It most certainly did. Plenty of post-10th century East Slavic and>Magyar loan-words are present in Romanian.
Huh? So what's wrong with loan words? It is completely natural that
Romanian should be full of these *enriching features*. You seem to be
implying that old Romanian was adversely affected (even snuffed out)
by these empires and *tourists* over the centuries. The Latin offshoot
survived very long periods of domination and myriad influences...even
in Italy Latin transformed into modern Italian...Whaddya want? Romanian
to return to its ancient and *pure* roots to get back to being the
original Latin again? Do you, by any chance, walk around in a toga? ;-)
>>Ceaucescu era scholars liked to claim Dacian roots for modern Romania>>(because of the obvious Roman connection) to justify the political>>claim for Transylvania.>While Hungarian scholars, denying a Romanian presence in Transylvania>prior to Arpad's arrival, like to trash the credibility of the first>Hungarian chronicler, Anonymus.
There you go again...I'm not remotely interested in anyone's bigoted
claims to historical Transylvania, or historical anywhere else: I'm
much more interested in the present controlling interests in territories
of the world moving up from all that infantile bullshit and learning
to look at themselves honestly as modern life forms that have something
better to give (than they currently offer) for the 21st century. The
point of my original posting might become clearer now.
>> Hungarians have had a territorially>>recognised nation-state for a millenium. I often get the idea that>>Romanians try to overcompensate for this difference when discussing>>their own origins.>You might be right here. It is also true that an idiotic attachment to>this idea of nation-state led ultimately to the Trianon partition of>the great millennial Hungarian state. I can only hope Romanians will>finally learn a lesson here.
Amen!
>>Perhaps the the problem is English usage which speaks of>>Vlachs and Moldavians, but not of Rumini.>What does Romanian or, if you prefer, Rumanian mean in English?
Is this a rhetorical question? It is really part of what I asked in my
original posting. AFAIK Moldavia and Wallachia gained semi-independence
in 1829, united in 1859 (as Romania), became independent in 1878 and
became a kingdom in 1881. So it looks like Romanian became *official*
to English speakers in 1859. Perhaps English speakers called the
language(s) of Vlachs and Moldavians (prior to unification) Vlach
(or Wallachian) and Moldavian. Perhaps English speakers familiar
with the area employed the terms used by the populations indigenous
to the territories at the time. This is uninformed speculation since
I have yet to see any English period books that refer to the area.
Perhaps you've seen such period books?
>>>I'm extremely curious to know where did you find this information.>>Er, it's not info, but a question asking for info.>You have mentioned several times Ceausescu-era literature. I thought>you read in that literature the claim that the Saxons called>themselves Romanians.
Not really, but didn't Ceaucescu's Romanian nation-state insist on
calling all these people Romanian with a stealthy policy to diminish
and eventually destroy *non-Romanian* cultures and languages (didn't
Russian speakers in Moldova object to this?) In contrast, the current
political entity of Britain allows the Scots, Welsh, (Northern) Irish,
and many other immigrant communities to maintain their own cultural
identities, languages, etc, without forcing their assimilation into
being *English* (although this was not always true). Apart from multi-
lingual Belgium (and perhaps Spain, up to a point, with Basque, Catalan
and Arabic), Continental European states do not currently seem to be
very good about tolerating such diversity...today we have to look to
Canada and the USA (and perhaps Argentina, and there must be plenty
of other examples) for such tolerance of diversity. It is my belief
that communities are strengthened by the dynamic influences of cultural
diversity, without which consciousness/life stagnates.
Regards,
George
PS I'm hearing reports of the Romanian election results over the radio...
seems like Romanians might finally be kicking out the old Communist
dinosaurs. Let's hope it leads to real changes for the better throughout
the various administrative machineries...good luck!
--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

In article >,
says...
>Hi Peter. Thanks for your response ... call me stupid, but I'm still>confused. You're not being specific enough for what at times might well be>referred to as "my pea brain". Revolt ... wanting to be free? National>communists, socialists, liberals and conservatives all agreed on that ....>ok .... "we asked<...>" but in the end result, the bottom line becomes ....>was it "forradalom, or "szabadsagharc"? You never did committ to either>definintion, and also I'm not entirely sure of what you were trying to say,>really.
Just to interject on this, but our Hungarian friend Nimrod b.1944
(who joined the party that sightseeing night in London) used the term
*szabadsagharc* and was surprised when I mentioned the objections posted
here to its use in describing the '56 uprising/revolution.
Hope you're recovering from the jet lag.
Regards,
George
--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> Your suggestion is OK, but why wait for statistics? Surely one's moral> philosophy should be sufficient. If you think that certain phobias or> violence are wrong, then you should say so. For me, one injustice or act of> violence is too much. Waiting for statistics may prove to be too late to> diffuse dangerous trends.>> By the way, the United States Congress has required the Justice Department> to gather statistics on hate crimes since 1991. The 1995 figures were> released yesterday and the numbers show that 61 percent of hate crimes was> racial bias. Some 16 per cent was religious bias, 13 per cent was sexual> orientation bias, and 10 per cent was ethnic or national origin biases.>> I may not have convinced you, Barna, but if you keep debating then I'll> consider that I've achieved a partial victory. But don't worry. I won't be> too smug about it.
OK Joe, I will try again. I tried before a number of times but failed
miserable with my discussion of poverty in Hungary. My belief is that the
root cause of most social ills is poverty. I would be interested to know
the background of the people involved in the crimes you quoted above. I
would guess that most of them came from disadvantaged families.
I blame most of Hungary's problems on poverty also. I think Trianon
happened, because the rich treated the poor like dirt. This is why the
Slovak, Roman peasants hated the magyars. They identified the magyars with
the injustices which kept them poor. This is why anti-Semitism could
develop in the extent it did, because most people identified the Jews with
the rich factory owners who paid them miserable low wages.
Obviously I can not prove these assumptions. I never studied sociology, I
only go by what I read in literature, and what I heard from my father about
the Horthy area. There was unbelievable poverty then. We hear a lot about
Horthy's "feher" terror, Numerous Clauses laws, but little about how the
unskilled labourers, the servants, the landless farm workers were treated
then. From these families came most of the members of the nazi and
communist party.
Sadly, I see the type of poverty described in the works of Illye1s and
Kassa1k for the 30's reappear in present day Hungary. I was there in this
June and I had to visit social agencies to help an elderly widow to find a
home in an old age home, because she could not maintain her apartment from
the 13,000 Forint/month pension she is getting. I was shocked to hear the
way the bureaucrats talked to the people lining up in the corridors waiting
to be heard.
In my view poverty can not be measured by money alone. It is the
hopelessness, the subhuman treatment of the poor which makes it so
dangerous. And this is what is so difficult to measure and fight. Be1la
Tarr made an excellent 7 hour long b/w film called "Satantango" in which he
shows the plight of the present day landless unskilled labourers. It is an
excellent introduction to the problems I would like see discussed.
So Joe, what do you think how will Hungary get out of this rut? In the
Horthy era people thought the land reform would solve the problems, in the
Kadar era they thought the fall of communism would help. Should they put
their fate in the multinationals now? Will Coca-Cola, MacDonald or GE
will pull them out? Or the problems are only temporary, and I just fell to
the demagoguery of the opposition parties.
Barna Bozoki

At 08:57 PM 11/5/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 03:19 PM 11/5/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:>><snip>>>I agree with Eva's last but important statement. Let me state again..even>>if one pays ZERO taxes, they should have the right to vote if they are>>citizens.>>Peter Soltesz>>No taxation without representation and no representation without taxation.
Sounds nice but it isn't true in today's world. (It wasn't true even
then but more about that later.) The right to vote is in no way connected to
taxation. Everyone who reaches eighteen--in most countries--are eligible to
vote without any reference whatsoever to taxes. In fact, many, many
eighteen-year olds don't pay taxes: they are still in school. Unemployed
people don't pay taxes and yet they are eligible to vote. Retired people,
living only a social security, don't pay taxes, yet they can vote.
Housewives who don't have jobs and thus don't pay taxes can vote.
And by the way, the American colonists and "no taxation without
representation" slogan. Plenty of Englishmen were paying taxes in the
eighteenth and nineteenth century and were not eligible to vote. So, it
wasn't true even then.
Eva Balogh

At 02:46 PM 11/6/96 +0000, Nandor Balogh wrote:
>Agnes and J.Zs. are write. But they are too far. There was a war in 1956>in Hungary too. And they are /and they children/ too in our hierarchy.>Let's talk about this around okt 23.
This is a very waxing question. And here I am thinking of not just
the ones who committed crimes during and after the revolution but also of
those who were active during the Rakosi and Kadar regimes. I have not been
able to come to a satisfactory stand--satisfactory to myself--on this
question. One day I think that perhaps it is better to leave these things
alone: digging up the facts would arouse only hatred. Next day I feel that
it really isn't fair that these people never had to answer for their crimes.
And I am not just talking about people who were physically or
psychologically abusing people; I am also talking here about people who even
indirectly caused not just suffering but also were responsible for lost
human lives. Let me tell you just one example of the latter.
In 1950 the Rakosi government began deporting "the enemies of the
people" from Budapest to the countryside. In the middle of the night someone
knocked on the door and within a few hours they were taken to unknown
destination: often into some peasant's barn in one of the less attractive
parts of the country. But this wasn't enough: ordinary peasants were rounded
up in this manner. And they didn't even have to be rich
peasants--kulaks--but just any peasant who had any brain in his head and
some leadership ability. Thus, a young peasant, his wife, and three children
in the village where my grandmother lived, were packed up and deported.
Deported from their ancestral village, from their modest house, stripped of
their 14-15 acres of land. And it was bad enough that these poor people were
deported, interned, stripped of all their worldly possessions but the
peasant's mother committed suicide a week later. The party secretary of the
village who wasn't a native of the village was a woman whose name I
mercifully forgot. It was she who was mostly responsible for these acts.
These poor people, by the way, were never allowed to go back to their
village. After their release, they ended up in the city of Pecs at the
doorstep of the Hungarian Reformed Church. And this is where my family got
into the picture. Father knew these people and offered them a modest home, a
room and a kitchen--electricity but no running water--in the little building
which stood in our vineyard and housed the cellar. Three years ago at my
mother's funeral an attractive woman was among the mourners. I had no idea
who she was. After the funeral she came up to me and introduced herself. She
was the youngest daughter of that poor man. I remembered her as a child--I
was a few years older than she was. And then she handed me a book. It turned
out to be a book about these unfortunate people. The author collected their
oral histories and I was glad to see that my father's name was included.
Should that party secretary--if she is still alive--be punished for all
those ruined lives and for the suicide of that woman's grandmother?
This is in itself a dilemma but there are other problems concerning
past cases which don't involve life or death, crime or punishment. They
involve only the truth about the past, the truth about individuals, and, of
course, the truth about the recent history of the country and its people.
Here are a couple of examples. The other day I saw a news item in *Magyar
Hirlap.* The paper reported that two government officials, suspected of
corruption in connection with privatization in a smaller town in eastern
Hungary were arrested by the police. To my great surprise the paper instead
of giving their names published only their initials! My, I said, they are
not exactly under eighteen, are they? That's bad enough, but two days later,
I was reading an editorial about 1956 in *168 Ora* and the author mentioned
that ten years ago, at the thirtieth anniversary of the revolution some
brave newspapermen actually published reports about gatherings in foreign
capitals and unveiling of statues in commemoration of the anniversary. And
he added: "A certain political commentator said in a sarcastic tone that
`these gatherings nowadays must be mentioned only as a gerontological
problem.' It is possible that they will meet again in ten years, but they
will always be fewer and fewer of them." No name. A few lines later the same
journalist mentions a certain parliamentary member "D.J." Why again only
initials? My curiosity was aroused: why don't they give names of people of
accused of corruption or the name of a newspaperman who said this or that in
a newspaper ten years ago. Or in parliament six years ago? I asked for
enlightenment from those who live in Hungary.
Yesterday I received a letter which explained all this. According to
my informant there is a law which deals with the "protection of personal
data." The law is either written in a way which makes people cautious about
mentioning other people's past deeds or that people are simply interpreting
the law in a way which is nothing else but the distortion of history, I
don't know. In any case, according to my informant there is an Internet
discussion forum, on which one of the discussants happened to mention the
name of a certain colonel who worked for the Ministry of Interior in the
1980s and who was responsible for denying him a passport to go abroad. This
particular colonel's job was screening people for the privilege of visiting
a foreign country. His name is on hundreds of documents received by the
people in question. Yet the moderator of the discussion group warned that
revealing the name of such person might be against the privacy law. If that
is correct, meaning that if today one cannot mention the name of certain
officials who signature appeared on public documents in fear of violating
their privacy, then we are in trouble. This way not only the truth will
never be known, but also the practice gives the idea to people--already
terribly corrupted by the practices of the last forty years--that it really
doesn't matter what we do, what acts we commit. The cloak of privacy
protects all their misdeeds.
If the law is badly written and therefore it is misinterpreted then
that law should be rewritten. If the law clearly forbids public discussion
of past public acts of living persons then that law must be changed. Because
in either case, the final result is the distortion of history. It is
commandable to protect the privacy of individuals, but that protection
should never be extended to public utterances, or acts. Moreover, such an
interpretation of the law would tie the hands of the historians trying to
unrevel the history of the past.
Eva Balogh

>> ++++ In fact there are many countries that define a citizen as any> child(ren) of a ctizen (no matter where they were born!!!).> For example, Belgium...many a young man was surprised that they were> drafted into the army in a country that they were NOT born in (and were> citizens also of other countries - like the USA, etc.)>>
Really? Can a British citizen with a hungarian parent drafted in
Hungary? There were cases in Cyprus, where brit kids on holiday
(of cypriot parents) found themself drafted. But I haven't heard such
a thing in Hungary. Surely such a "foreign" person couldn't be
trusted with all those military secrets...

So, the next question is - what causes poverty?
Hungary is not unique in having that problem, and I
agree with you on the topic.
I think welfare capitalism is not sustainable anymore - look at
the poverty in the "mature democracies" of USA and UK, and
the worsening situation elsewhere in Europe.
Free market/monetarism has also been tried - they failed without
state intervensionism/wars/arm trade.
Capitalism is not the best of the possible worlds, and I fail to
see why should we not look for a genuinly democratic and
more viable alternative.
> OK Joe, I will try again. I tried before a number of times but failed> miserable with my discussion of poverty in Hungary. My belief is that the> root cause of most social ills is poverty. I would be interested to know> the background of the people involved in the crimes you quoted above. I> would guess that most of them came from disadvantaged families.>> I blame most of Hungary's problems on poverty also. I think Trianon> happened, because the rich treated the poor like dirt. This is why the> Slovak, Roman peasants hated the magyars. They identified the magyars with> the injustices which kept them poor. This is why anti-Semitism could> develop in the extent it did, because most people identified the Jews with> the rich factory owners who paid them miserable low wages.>> Obviously I can not prove these assumptions. I never studied sociology, I> only go by what I read in literature, and what I heard from my father about> the Horthy area. There was unbelievable poverty then. We hear a lot about> Horthy's "feher" terror, Numerous Clauses laws, but little about how the> unskilled labourers, the servants, the landless farm workers were treated> then. From these families came most of the members of the nazi and> communist party.>> Sadly, I see the type of poverty described in the works of Illye1s and> Kassa1k for the 30's reappear in present day Hungary. I was there in this> June and I had to visit social agencies to help an elderly widow to find a> home in an old age home, because she could not maintain her apartment from> the 13,000 Forint/month pension she is getting. I was shocked to hear the> way the bureaucrats talked to the people lining up in the corridors waiting> to be heard.>> In my view poverty can not be measured by money alone. It is the> hopelessness, the subhuman treatment of the poor which makes it so> dangerous. And this is what is so difficult to measure and fight. Be1la> Tarr made an excellent 7 hour long b/w film called "Satantango" in which he> shows the plight of the present day landless unskilled labourers. It is an> excellent introduction to the problems I would like see discussed.>> So Joe, what do you think how will Hungary get out of this rut? In the> Horthy era people thought the land reform would solve the problems, in the> Kadar era they thought the fall of communism would help. Should they put> their fate in the multinationals now? Will Coca-Cola, MacDonald or GE> will pull them out? Or the problems are only temporary, and I just fell to> the demagoguery of the opposition parties.>> Barna Bozoki>

On Thu, 6 Nov 1986, Eva Durant wrote:
> > ++++ In fact there are many countries that define a citizen as any> > child(ren) of a ctizen (no matter where they were born!!!).> > For example, Belgium...many a young man was surprised that they were> > drafted into the army in a country that they were NOT born in (and were> > citizens also of other countries - like the USA, etc.)>> Really? Can a British citizen with a hungarian parent drafted in> Hungary? There were cases in Cyprus, where brit kids on holiday> (of cypriot parents) found themself drafted. But I haven't heard such> a thing in Hungary. Surely such a "foreign" person couldn't be> trusted with all those military secrets...>
+++++++ Well I only said that there are those countries that do do that.
In which case it apparaently would not matter if they were Brits,
Canadians, Americans, etc. I do not believe that HU has such a law on the
books --- one needs to check these things well if one travels ---
BTW Eva... I think you are right, the current HU govt and mentality would
never permit that...but one never knows????
Peter Soltesz

At 3:10 AM 11/5/96, S or G Farkas wrote:
>At 10:25 PM 11/4/96 -0400, Peter Hidas wrote:>>> Americans who settle permanently outside>>the USA cannot participate in the American democratic process either.>>As far as I know this statement is not true. They can vote at the local>American embassy.>>Gabor D. Farkas
That is correct - as long as they remain American citizen (with passport).

At 08:40 PM 11/6/86 +0000, you wrote:
>>>> ++++ In fact there are many countries that define a citizen as any>> child(ren) of a ctizen (no matter where they were born!!!).>> For example, Belgium...many a young man was surprised that they were>> drafted into the army in a country that they were NOT born in (and were>> citizens also of other countries - like the USA, etc.)>>>>>>Really? Can a British citizen with a hungarian parent drafted in>Hungary? There were cases in Cyprus, where brit kids on holiday>(of cypriot parents) found themself drafted. But I haven't heard such>a thing in Hungary. Surely such a "foreign" person couldn't be>trusted with all those military secrets...>>>>>>
Citizenship of a given country is not related to citizenship of another.
Each sovereign country bestowed its citizenship on people, according to its
own laws.
For example, I am a dual citizen. I was born as a Hungarian citizen, in
Hungary to Hungarian citizen parents.
In the 60's, after the five year residency requirements, the United States
chose to award me US citizenship. I never renounced my Hungarian
citizenship, nor was I ever asked to. While serving in US Armed Forces, I
was warned by my superiors not to travel to Hungary, since as a Hungarian
citizen the US would be powerless in defending me if the Hungarians chose to
exercise Hungarian laws and detain me. If I were to visit other countries,
Poland or Czechoslovakia, for example, the legal protection would have been
a clearer legal issue. Knowing that I was a fugitive in Hungary for illegal
border crossing (this was before the Kadar amnesty), I was not about to test it
.
After the change of the political system in Hungary I chose to reconfirm my
citizenship by asking for and receiving a Hungarian passport.
As far as military secrets are concerned, you are quite correct, the US
Armed Forces would probably have not put me in a position where my family
connections behind the Iron Curtain would have become a liability. As a
nation of immigrants, the US is well aware of the potential conflict
interest and loyalties. It is well known fact that during World War 2, many
of the Japanese-Americans served in the European theater of war, while many
Italians or Germans served in the Pacific. There were many exceptions, of
course, and sometimes there were overriding reasons, but this, for the most
part, was the policy.

Hi George!
At 07:46 AM 05/11/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Just to interject on this,
Hey - this is a discussion group ... no? By that definition alone, I for
one can not possibly consider this an "interjection" - but if I'm wrong,
what the heck! It's still welcome!
>but our Hungarian friend Nimrod b.1944>(who joined the party that sightseeing night in London) used the term>*szabadsagharc* and was surprised when I mentioned the objections posted>here to its use in describing the '56 uprising/revolution.>
That goes to show at least; that I am not alone in being confused about
this. As previously stated I have only ever heard of the events of '56
being described as "forradalom". Only recently, have I been exposed to the
"szabadsagharc" definition - in fact, originally, right here on this group
by the good 'ol Doc, which prompted my inquiries in July, while in Hungary.
At which time, as previously stated, all but *one* person asked defined it
as "forradalom". The case of Nimrod, who has likely been living in Brittain
for quite some time - leads to further confusion. Was Nimrod involved in
the '56 event btw?
But, a thought did come to me; the event of '56, brought out to the streets
people of all convictions; for their own reasons, in the hopes of attaining
their own purposes. Who will ever know, or even begin to understand each
individual's motivation for participating? The conflict over this
definition might well be as a result of the very fact that the purposes were
indeed varied - therefore, impossible to define. Defining the event 40
years later - not having been a participant and not being an expert in the
field? - is way beyond my scope of abilities.
What does leave me in awe - is the amazing interest displayed by the younger
generation today within Hungary regarding the 56 issue. There are countless
questions and even opinions. It became clear to me that they too are
confused and are looking for a consensus of the definition. In addition to
which, "szabadsagharc" has only become obvious to me during this last trip;
since the medias at large are using the term (never alone, but in
conjunction with "forradalom").
I still tend to like the response of the old teacher - but keep in mind,
that my personal exposure has always been "forradalom" related. It's impact
has greatly changed the course of my life. My Father was heavily involved -
who is unfortunately no longer around to give me any insight. All those
close to me, and those at my disposal unanimously refer to '56 as
"forradalom" today, as they have, since I can recall.
>Hope you're recovering from the jet lag.
I'm getting there slowly, but surely thanks!
>>Regards,
to you also
Aniko
>-->George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC>>

Barna Bozoki wrote a long article, addressed to Joe Szalai, in which
he talks at length about the causes of poverty in Hungary today as well as
in the past. My answer will mostly touch on Hungarian poverty in the past,
especially during the Horthy regime. But let's go step by step and let's
state at the very beginning that I don't agree with him.
Barna says:
>I blame most of Hungary's problems on poverty also. I think Trianon>happened, because the rich treated the poor like dirt. This is why the>Slovak, Roman peasants hated the magyars. They identified the magyars with>the injustices which kept them poor.
Hungary was not a rich country before Trianon and was not a rich
country after Trianon. After the 1848-49 revolution, even before 1867, the
economic development was fast and furious and as a result everything else
was on the go, including education, formation of the middle class, general
improvement of agriculture, and the introduction of industry. But still the
country was poor and just because the Hungarian "ruling classes" to use a
favorite category of Marxist historiography kept the people dirt poor.
Trianon definitely didn't happen because the "rich treated the poor
like dirt," be that poor Slovak or Romanian. Trianon happened because
Austria-Hungary lost the war, and Yugoslavia, Romania, and the new
Czechoslovakia won it. Slovak and Romanian historians might talk about "dual
oppression"--another favorite category of Marxist historiography--the Slovak
and Romanian peasants were not doubly oppressed by the Hungarians. What I
mean by doubly oppressed: economically as well as ethnically. The problem
was that by the time the Hungarian governments were in the position to deal
"with the nationalities," the "nationalities" were "nations." It was too
late to "deal with them."
> This is why anti-Semitism could>develop in the extent it did, because most people identified the Jews with>the rich factory owners who paid them miserable low wages.
I'm afraid that doesn't seem to hold water either. Germany was
certainly one of the richest, if not the richest country, in Europe. The
working class was quite well off thanks to the unions. The number of Jews
was relatively small and yet, antisemitism was much greater in Germany than
in anywhere else.
>Obviously I can not prove these assumptions. I never studied sociology, I>only go by what I read in literature, and what I heard from my father about>the Horthy area.
Sociology will not help you, I can assure you. Some history would.
But perhaps I am just prejudiced against sociologists, although I doubt
it.;)) As for your saying that what you know about the Horthy regime is from
your father, that reminds me of Comrade J.Sz. (I am trying to protect his
privacy!) of Forum fame. He doesn't believe historians--whatever he knows
about the Horthy regime is from his father, and believe me it was the worst
thing in the face of the earth. After all, his father said so.
>There was unbelievable poverty then.
Yes, the country was poor and there were some people who were very,
very poor.
>We hear a lot about>Horthy's "feher" terror, Numerous Clauses laws, but little about how the>unskilled labourers, the servants, the landless farm workers were treated>then. From these families came most of the members of the nazi and>communist party.
Well, there was white terror--1919-1921 and were was numerus
clauses--not really inforced with full vigor. But the Horthy regime also
managed to make some progress in health, for example. In 1913 for 100,000
people there were 31 doctors. By the 1930 there were over 100 doctors per
100,000 inhabitants, that is, it reached European levels. One hundred new
hospitals were built between the two world wars. There was quite a bit of
development in education as well. Before the war, for example, there were
over 60 students in a class. By the 1930s, the number was 40. The number
people who finished high school also grew, in fact, it doubled in comparison
to the pre-war years. The number of people who couldn't read or right shrank
considerably. And one could go on and on. (And let me add that my data come
from Hungarian, so-called Marxist historians from the 1970s.)
>Sadly, I see the type of poverty described in the works of Illye1s and>Kassa1k for the 30's reappear in present day Hungary.
Yes, Gyula Illyes wrote about landless peasants, who worked on large
estates. And indeed, there were many of them. But, you know Barna, the fact
is that even if you took every bit of land away from the aristocratic
landowners, it wasn't enough to give enough land for everybody to provide a
half-decent living. In 1945 there was a very stringent landreform. I am not
100 percent sure but if I recall the largest parcel of land under one owner
was something like 250 holds. And you know what, that meant of giving 5-8
hold parcels--not enough for a family to live on--to those who were entitled
to receive land under the provisions of the land reform. Meanwhile, these
people had absolutely no machinery, not even a half-starved horse to till
that land with. The problem was not the lack of land reform; the problem was
not fast enough industrial development to employ the agricultural surplus
population.
>I was there in this>June and I had to visit social agencies to help an elderly widow to find a>home in an old age home, because she could not maintain her apartment from>the 13,000 Forint/month pension she is getting. I was shocked to hear the>way the bureaucrats talked to the people lining up in the corridors waiting>to be heard.
Well, that is quite a switch from the Horthy regime but the only
thing I can say that unfortunately this is the new style in Hungary. Coarse,
awful, dreadful. And you don't have to be poor to get that kind of treatment.
>In my view poverty can not be measured by money alone. It is the>hopelessness, the subhuman treatment of the poor which makes it so>dangerous. And this is what is so difficult to measure and fight. Be1la>Tarr made an excellent 7 hour long b/w film called "Satantango" in which he>shows the plight of the present day landless unskilled labourers. It is an>excellent introduction to the problems I would like see discussed.
Since I didn't see the film--dont' you think that seven hours is a
bit too long?--I can't discuss it, but I agree with you that the problem,
whether it is in Hungary or in the United States, is undereducation.
>So Joe, what do you think how will Hungary get out of this rut? In the>Horthy era people thought the land reform would solve the problems, in the>Kadar era they thought the fall of communism would help.> Should they put>their fate in the multinationals now? Will Coca-Cola, MacDonald or GE>will pull them out?
Put it that way. Seventy-five percent of Hungary's export comes from
the multinationals. This is what makes Hungary better off than it would be
otherwise. Thanks to foreign investments--highest in the region--Hungary has
a good chance of recovering from the slump. So, please, don't bring up all
that nationalistic crap about selling out and all that. Foreign companies
are doing a lot of good in Hungary.
Eva Balogh

At 08:40 PM 11/6/86 +0000, Eva Durant wrote:
>>>> ++++ In fact there are many countries that define a citizen as any>> child(ren) of a ctizen (no matter where they were born!!!).>> For example, Belgium...many a young man was surprised that they were>> drafted into the army in a country that they were NOT born in (and were>> citizens also of other countries - like the USA, etc.)>>>>>>Really? Can a British citizen with a hungarian parent drafted in>Hungary?
Not to my knowledge. We just have the privilege of claiming
Hungarian citizenship and carry a Hungarian passport but luckily we don't
have to serve in the army. On the other hand, male citizens of Switzerland
living abroad, must either serve in the army for two weeks a year or must
redeem himself by paying a fair amount of money instead.
Eva Balogh

Sometimes I peak int the soc.culture.magyar list and I noticed a very
interesting discussion going on. Everybody on this list who had his/her
schooling in Hungary learned about the Turks, the Turkish occupation,
etc. a great deal. It was never called "Ottoman". It was always called
Turkish. I now read that the Turks were the lowest ethnic group in the
Ottoman Empire. Not even the language of this empire was Turkish but
Armenian with foreign contacts and Arabic-Persian within. (Read details
on the above-mentioned list).
There are a lot of historians on this lists. Have you ever heard about
this?
Agnes

At 01:08 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Barnabas Bozoki wrote:
<snip>
>OK Joe, I will try again. I tried before a number of times but failed>miserable with my discussion of poverty in Hungary.
What do you mean by "failed"? I don't recall your posts, but do you mean
that you couldn't convince people of your point of view? In a discussion no
one fails except, perhaps, those who don't express themselves.
>My belief is that the>root cause of most social ills is poverty. I would be interested to know>the background of the people involved in the crimes you quoted above. I>would guess that most of them came from disadvantaged families.
You're probably right. And yes, I'd agree that poverty is the root cause of
most social ills.
<snip>
>So Joe, what do you think how will Hungary get out of this rut? In the>Horthy era people thought the land reform would solve the problems, in the>Kadar era they thought the fall of communism would help. Should they put>their fate in the multinationals now? Will Coca-Cola, MacDonald or GE>will pull them out? Or the problems are only temporary, and I just fell to>the demagoguery of the opposition parties.
Well, I don't know, Barna. Are you prone to demagoguery? But seriously,
no, I don't think that Coca-Cola, MacDonalds, etc., are the catholicon that
Hungary needs today. My hope is that the problems are temporary and that in
time there'll be a healthy, environmentally sustainable, economy where
individual merit is recognized and rewarded and all basic human needs are
adequately met.
You know, that's such an easy sentence to write, and yes, I can hear Eva
Balogh thinking that I'm having another one of my episodic Rapid Eye
Movement Socialist Dreams. But so what! Unfortunately, Hungarians have no
choice but to put their hopes into yet another venture. If the free market
system doesn't pan out, for the simultaneous (yes, simultaneous!) benefit of
all, then what? Another venture?
Joe Szalai

At 03:34 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
<snip>
> Sounds nice but it isn't true in today's world. (It wasn't true even>then but more about that later.) The right to vote is in no way connected to>taxation. Everyone who reaches eighteen--in most countries--are eligible to>vote without any reference whatsoever to taxes. In fact, many, many>eighteen-year olds don't pay taxes: they are still in school. Unemployed>people don't pay taxes and yet they are eligible to vote. Retired people,>living only a social security, don't pay taxes, yet they can vote.>Housewives who don't have jobs and thus don't pay taxes can vote.
Wow! Strike me dead! It sounds soooo utopian. Is it any wonder Eva Balogh
likes the United States? We poor sobs in Canada have to pay a VAT known as
the GST. We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol. The
unemployed, the retired, and the housewife all pay school and property taxes
(one way or an other). I wannabe an American!
Joe Szalai

At 02:46 PM 11/6/96 +0000, Dr Nandor Balogh > wrote:
>Agnes and J.Zs. are write. But they are too far. There was a war in 1956>in Hungary too. And they are /and they children/ too in our hierarchy.>Let's talk about this around okt 23.
Do you not want the vicious cycle of revenge and retribution in Hungary to
end? I do.
Joe Szalai

At 08:52 AM 11/6/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:><SNIP>>> No taxation without representation and no representation without taxation.>>>> Joe Szalai>>>+++ Joe you are missing the point. How would YOU like to be>disenfranchised while you were out of Canada for any reason during an>election and could not vote?
Well, if I cared *that* much about voting, I'd rearrange my plans. Besides,
in many jurisdictions there's advance voting and voting by proxy.
Joe Szalai
"Let the people think they govern and they will be governed."
William Penn

At 02:46 PM 11/6/96 +0000, Dr. Nandor Balogh brings up the 1956 revolution
in this thread. I would like to ask in this context a question of those who
participated in the revolution (I was too young and lived in Romania):
In the book Cry Hungary (that was mentioned recently on this list) there is
a series of photographs, showing the summary execution of a group of
AVO-members by freedom fighters. Those executed were apparently unarmed,
they look very young, probably conscripts. Does anybody know what happened
there, how frequent was this kind of "justice" and what happened to those
who acted as judges and executioners?
Gabor D. Farkas

At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
> We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.
Joe, less auslese (not to speak about the beerenauslese) will result in less
taxes:-(. And smoking causes cancer. Driving pollutes. As former candidate
Dole said: just don't do it.
Gabor D. Farkas

On Thu, 6 Nov 1986 21:27:46 +0000 Eva Durant wrote:
> So, the next question is - what causes poverty?> Hungary is not unique in having that problem, and I> agree with you on the topic.
I don't know. But before looking for the answer I would like to follow
my old research rule: define the problem, look up previous works, then
analyze. I still not sure how to separate the various types of poverty.
There are people who live below the poverty line because they are sick,
there are others in this situation because of some temporary set back in
their own life or in the society. For example, thousands of immigrants come
to Canada every year, and many of them end up on the welfare role for a
period of time, but most of them escape after a few years. Or a lot of
fishermen ended up on the dole, because the cod disappeared from the sea.
And there are those who choose to be poor, they prefer to live a simple
life on maigre income or social assistance. So it is very difficult to
determine how many people are in that hopeless condition where they become
alienated, bitter, and destructive.
I also think that there is a difference between the way the Americans and
Hungarians (Europeans?) treat the poor. The rich here seem to treat the
poor with more respect. I recall a discussion with an old Hungarian
immigrant in '57. He was as poor as the church mouse, but told me very
proudly: I don't have to kiss the hand of anybody here.
> I think welfare capitalism is not sustainable anymore - look at> the poverty in the "mature democracies" of USA and UK, and> the worsening situation elsewhere in Europe.> Free market/monetarism has also been tried - they failed without> state intervensionism/wars/arm trade.
I read some convincing arguments, that the Western monetary system is about
to collapse, because the national debt can not be contained. [i.e. J. S.
Jaikaram: Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing, 1992]. These theories were
developed, when the inflation was high in America. But now the inflation is
under control, the national debt is going down, the stock market is
booming, the imminent death of capitalism is less threatening.
May be with persistent lobbying it is possible to achieve, that poverty would
not be tolerated in a civilized society, regardless of the economic system.
Barna Bozoki

At 07:58 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Eva Balogh, responding to Barna Bozoki, wrote:
<snip>
> Sociology will not help you, I can assure you. Some history would.>But perhaps I am just prejudiced against sociologists, although I doubt>it.;)) As for your saying that what you know about the Horthy regime is from>your father, that reminds me of Comrade J.Sz. (I am trying to protect his>privacy!) of Forum fame. He doesn't believe historians--whatever he knows>about the Horthy regime is from his father, and believe me it was the worst>thing in the face of the earth. After all, his father said so.
I may be wrong here but wasn't it Eva Balogh who was chortling about Andras
Kornai, and other young Hungarians, learning the truth about communism from
their dads. It seems that the situation was less romantic when dad talked
about things that Eva Balogh didn't agree with.
<snip>
> Put it that way. Seventy-five percent of Hungary's export comes from>the multinationals. This is what makes Hungary better off than it would be>otherwise. Thanks to foreign investments--highest in the region--Hungary has>a good chance of recovering from the slump. So, please, don't bring up all>that nationalistic crap about selling out and all that. Foreign companies>are doing a lot of good in Hungary.
I may be wrong again but I think that Eva Balogh left something out of her
last sentance. I think she meant to say, "Foreign companies are doing a lot
of good, lining their own pockets, in Hungary." I mean, if they weren't
lining their own pockets they'd leave, no? I don't think there's such a
thing as "mercy capitalism".
Joe Szalai
"History repeats itself. Historians repeat each other."
Philip Guedalla

At 07:28 PM 11/6/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:
>At 09:59 PM 11/6/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:>>> We also pay heavy taxes on tobacco, gas, and alcohol.>>Joe, less auslese (not to speak about the beerenauslese) will result in less>taxes:-(. And smoking causes cancer. Driving pollutes. As former candidate>Dole said: just don't do it.
Sure. And look where it got him!
Joe Szalai

Liviu Iordache > wrote:
> "Eva S. Balogh" > wrote:>> >[...] If Laszlo> >Hunyadi was 24 he was considered to be a grown-up. By the way, was he> >married? By the age of 24 he should have been.>> I have no idea.>> Regards,>> Liviu Iordache
As far as I know Laszlo Hunyadi was not married but he was betrothed
to Maria Garai, daughter of Laszlo Garai, the palatine of Hungary.
However, Garai belonged to the group of Ulrich Cillei, and after
Cillei's death he joined the enemies of the Hunyadi family.
In Erkel's opera there is a very dramatic scene when Laszlo Hunyadi
takes a leave from his fiancee, Maria, before going to the scaffold.
Best regards
Magdolna Zimanyi
KFKI Research Institute for Particle Phone: +36-1-175-8257
and Nuclear Physics FAX: +36-1-169-6567
Computer Networking Center E-mail:
H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
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