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Worthlessburger takes about the longest time in the league to throw a pass, but he has receivers that keep playing instead of running the route and then stopping and putting their hands on their hips while watching Cassel get creamed. Our O line is pretty good. I honestly no longer am sure what the biggest problem on offense is, but I know what it isn't: our O line. I think it is still a case of horrible coaching and play-calling. But, even though I think Cassel can be a solid QB, he clearly isn't a good leader. If he had a good rapport with his receivers, he could direct his receivers better and get plays done. I think we missed a huge opportunity not picking up Kellen Moore for the league minimum when he wasn't drafted. He is only the winningest QB in NCAA history, including 12 victories over top 10 teams over his 4 years. Instead, he went to Detroit where he'll never be able to show how good he can be in the NFL. BTW, if Barkley is the best QB in the draft, we better hope Pioli/Hunt pony up for a proven starter at QB. Because Barkley wouldn't have even been drafted last year. This is going to be a backup QB draft.

The above in bold is totally bogus.

I've watch their O-Line -- and saw it up close and personal when they hosted SD at Arrowhead -- get ran over on a continued basis this year. Len Dawson has repeatedly stated during his live broadcasts, week in and week out, that "they aren't getting the job done". The Raiders game is a perfect example. One can easily see the difference between the protection that Carson Palmer received versus what Chiefs QB's received.

Secondly, the statement that Barkley would not have been drafted had he come out for 2012 draft is pure bullsh!t. Buffalo might very well have snapped him up with the 10th overall pick and it's highly doubtful that Cleveland would have taken Weeden over Barkley at #27 overall.

1.) Watched the first quarter of the TB vs NO game (don't have time to review it all). The Bucs routinely just rushed 4. Yes, NO's pass rush held up well against a 4-man rush. Just twice on his 10 first quarter throws did they bring extra pressure, and that was in the form of one extra rusher. So a 5-man rush. Not that tough to defend.

LOL, I just watched the Chiefs 1st Offensive series against TB. Not only were they able to get pressure on Quinn with just a 4 man rush on the first 3 plays, on the first play TB's left DE Bennett smothered Charles for a 1-yard loss on Quinn's short throw to Charles. On 2nd down, they threw a WR screen to Dex, but there were 3 D-lineman that almost got Quinn -- they didn't even so much as chip any of those guys. On 3rd down Quinn threw the ball as soon as it was snapped to him on a quick slant that was incomplete. Throughout the game TB's 4 D-lineman were constantly getting penetration into the backfield.

Originally Posted by Ryfo18

In the KC vs TB game, they routinely brought 5, and a lot of times they brought 6 or 7. Defenses respect Brees in that they know they have to drop 7 into coverage. The same cannot be said for Brady Quinn.

It's routine for a team to bring more heat when they have the lead and know the opposing team has to throw. They tried it on Brees when they got ahead & his protection held up. Simple, really.

Originally Posted by Ryfo18

2.) The playcalling by the Chiefs should not lead to irrational blame being placed on the line. They still held up well, and times when the Bucs brought 4 or more, I was able to count to 3 before the ball came out (and still no rusher near). The 18-yard completion to Moeaki w/ 12:20 in the 3rd is a good example, as well as the the 19-yard completion to Maneri at 11:10 (same drive).

The play calling had very little to do with anything in the TB game. The times you were able to count to 3 were the exception, not the rule. The main point is they didn't have time to take shots down the field when it was still a close game.

Originally Posted by Ryfo18

3.) The Bucs are the league's best when it comes to stopping the run. They allow a 85 per game (6th best) and a league low 3.5 ypc. Add in the fact that you have noodle armed Brady Quinn under center, they stacked the box routinely. They're obviously tough to beat on the ground.

Precisely why you have to be able to protect the passer & give him time to throw downfield -- to set up your running game against that type of defense & the Chiefs couldn't do it early on in that game.

Originally Posted by Ryfo18

Overall, I think you're exaggerating the O-line being an issue.

Then you are thinking like an utter fool possessing Pioli's loser-type mentality. Is Len Dawson also exaggerating it as well when he states during his live broadcast of Chiefs games over and over again that "they aren't getting the job done" in regards to their O-Line? Bottom line is that they aren't very good. When you have a Guard playing out of position at LT and he's supposedly the best you've got, then you aren't very good. Simple, really.

LOL, I just watched the Chiefs 1st Offensive series against TB. Not only were they able to get pressure on Quinn with just a 4 man rush on the first 3 plays, on the first play TB's left DE Bennett smothered Charles for a 1-yard loss on Quinn's short throw to Charles. On 2nd down, they threw a WR screen to Dex, but there were 3 D-lineman that almost got Quinn -- they didn't even so much as chip any of those guys. On 3rd down Quinn threw the ball as soon as it was snapped to him on a quick slant that was incomplete. Throughout the game TB's 4 D-lineman were constantly getting penetration into the backfield.

Pressure? On called screen plays? The linemen's job is to let rushers free so that they can get up field to block.

First play, called screen pass to Charles. Winston seals the outside linebacker and Charles has 10 yards to run if he takes off to the right. Instead, he cuts back right where the defense is and gets tackled from behind. If he doesn't make that cut back, he runs for 10 yards and is one one one with the corner.

Everyone can see that here:

The second play is another called screen. Albert engages the DE and swims over him to block down field for McCluster, who will catch the ball. The DE reads the screen and the play goes nowhere.

Picture 1: Albert (76) engages the Defensive End

Picture 2: Defensive End stays home and sniffs out the screen.

Well played by the defensive end.

Though now I can see why you think our line is bad...because they allow untouched blockers go free at the quarterback on called screen plays. That's supposed to happen by design.

I've watch their O-Line -- and saw it up close and personal when they hosted SD at Arrowhead -- get ran over on a continued basis this year. Len Dawson has repeatedly stated during his live broadcasts, week in and week out, that "they aren't getting the job done". The Raiders game is a perfect example. One can easily see the difference between the protection that Carson Palmer received versus what Chiefs QB's received.

Secondly, the statement that Barkley would not have been drafted had he come out for 2012 draft is pure bullsh!t. Buffalo might very well have snapped him up with the 10th overall pick and it's highly doubtful that Cleveland would have taken Weeden over Barkley at #27 overall.

NFL.com says they are "mediocre", but not poor. I'm unsure of why you are trying to be offensive, but since you have no ability to look objectively at a game, I figure it must be over-compensation and insecurity.

I won't respond in kind, except to say that you might want to switch to decaf and give up beer. I'd hate to see you stroke out in a real argument...you are a Chiefs fan after all.

Worthlessburger takes about the longest time in the league to throw a pass, but he has receivers that keep playing instead of running the route and then stopping and putting their hands on their hips while watching Cassel get creamed. Our O line is pretty good. I honestly no longer am sure what the biggest problem on offense is, but I know what it isn't: our O line. I think it is still a case of horrible coaching and play-calling. But, even though I think Cassel can be a solid QB, he clearly isn't a good leader. If he had a good rapport with his receivers, he could direct his receivers better and get plays done. I think we missed a huge opportunity not picking up Kellen Moore for the league minimum when he wasn't drafted. He is only the winningest QB in NCAA history, including 12 victories over top 10 teams over his 4 years. Instead, he went to Detroit where he'll never be able to show how good he can be in the NFL. BTW, if Barkley is the best QB in the draft, we better hope Pioli/Hunt pony up for a proven starter at QB. Because Barkley wouldn't have even been drafted last year. This is going to be a backup QB draft.

Our line is fine. We have enough weapons on offense, the problem is we don't have a qb who can open up the offense and throw downfield.

Pressure? On called screen plays? The linemen's job is to let rushers free so that they can get up field to block.

First play, called screen pass to Charles. Winston seals the outside linebacker and Charles has 10 yards to run if he takes off to the right. Instead, he cuts back right where the defense is and gets tackled from behind. If he doesn't make that cut back, he runs for 10 yards and is one one one with the corner.

Everyone can see that here:

The only thing anyone can see here is that Charles was surrounded & had nowhere to go once he caught the ball. And that isn't Winston out there on the edge, it's Asamoah. Winston can clearly be seen in the center of the picture, right in front of Quinn. And that play WASN'T a designed screen pass -- that's bullsh!t -- it was dump-off out of necessity because of the pressure that Quinn saw coming. Why the fabricated lie to try and support your argument?

Originally Posted by Ryfo18

The second play is another called screen. Albert engages the DE and swims over him to block down field for McCluster, who will catch the ball. The DE reads the screen and the play goes nowhere.

Picture 1: Albert (76) engages the Defensive End

Picture 2: Defensive End stays home and sniffs out the screen.

Well played by the defensive end.

That's NOT what I was referring to. It's the floodgate coming from the other side of the play. If for any reason Quinn had to hold on to that ball, he gets nailed for a loss. The guys on the other side of the play are still supposed to block somebody.

Originally Posted by Ryfo18

Though now I can see why you think our line is bad...because they allow untouched blockers go free at the quarterback on called screen plays. That's supposed to happen by design.

That's BULLSH!T !! You aren't seeing anything except what you want to believe. The reality is TB's 4 D-Lineman were getting the better of the Chiefs O-Line on too many plays throughout the game. And that same thing has happened in just about all the games this year.

The fact is I'm not of any opinion when I say their O-Line isn't very good. That is a fact & I've watched it with my own eyes repeatedly throughout this season. They are nowhere close to the level of O-Line that the Chiefs had under Marty's years as HC or Dick Vermeil's years as HC. Many times under those regimes, their O-Lines dominated and took over games, sometimes even when they were playing from behind. We haven't seen anything even remotely close to that this year -- except maybe the 2nd part of the NO game in which incidentally, Charles 91 yard run could have been called back by a holding penalty on Albert ( He's damn lucky they didn't flag him ).

Like I said, if you think this group is good, then you are thinking with Scott Pioli's lose-type mentality.

Actually you're the typical BSer. You think you know it all and everyone else is wrong. But, hey, I'm somewhat of a BSer myself. But every now and then I like to see a real professional. Please carry on. You haven't given one single fact to back up one of your contentions yet, other than giving more aggressive over-compensation. Keep shoveling, you're just digging a hole deeper in the bullsh*thole.

You are the loud-mouth uncle that everyone avoids at Thanksgiving, but pretend to care what you think so as not to start an argument. At first I was irritated, but now I can't wait to see what BS you post next.

The only thing anyone can see here is that Charles was surrounded & had nowhere to go once he caught the ball. And that isn't Winston out there on the edge, it's Asamoah. Winston can clearly be seen in the center of the picture, right in front of Quinn. And that play WASN'T a designed screen pass -- that's bullsh!t -- it was dump-off out of necessity because of the pressure that Quinn saw coming. Why the fabricated lie to try and support your argument?

Charles was not surrounded, UNTIL he cut back to the left (you can clearly see in the picture above that he is cutting left), bringing the defenders behind the play back into the play. And you're correct, Asamoah.

If that isn't a designed screen call, then why in the world do the Center and Right Guard release from their blocks and go downfield to block to the same side where Charles is sitting?

What about the Center and Right Guard releasing to block downfield from a screen is lying?

Originally Posted by brdempsey69

That's NOT what I was referring to. It's the floodgate coming from the other side of the play. If for any reason Quinn had to hold on to that ball, he gets nailed for a loss. The guys on the other side of the play are still supposed to block somebody.

The floodgate comes from the other side because the center and right guard chip and then go block downfield.

Here they are chipping:

Here they are after the ball is out blocking downfield:

If you're going to attack the guys for doing their job like the play was drawn up, then you're free to do that.

Originally Posted by brdempsey69

That's BULLSH!T !! You aren't seeing anything except what you want to believe. The reality is TB's 4 D-Lineman were getting the better of the Chiefs O-Line on too many plays throughout the game. And that same thing has happened in just about all the games this year.

Again, after watching every pass that was thrown I can't find one example of their 4-man rush getting any pressure on Quinn. You're telling me it happens, and that "the eye in the sky doesn't lie." And it's not just that I couldn't find it on one play, you're saying that it happened "on too many plays." I'm still waiting for an example of this (other than designed screens).

Originally Posted by brdempsey69

The fact is I'm not of any opinion when I say their O-Line isn't very good. That is a fact & I've watched it with my own eyes repeatedly throughout this season. They are nowhere close to the level of O-Line that the Chiefs had under Marty's years as HC or Dick Vermeil's years as HC. Many times under those regimes, their O-Lines dominated and took over games, sometimes even when they were playing from behind. We haven't seen anything even remotely close to that this year -- except maybe the 2nd part of the NO game in which incidentally, Charles 91 yard run could have been called back by a holding penalty on Albert ( He's damn lucky they didn't flag him ).

Like I said, if you think this group is good, then you are thinking with Scott Pioli's lose-type mentality.

Please stop throwing the word "fact" around when presenting your opinion of the O-line. I've thrown out statistical facts as to how long it takes Cassel to get the ball out (way above average), how long it takes before he's sacked (also way above average, in a good way), and provided my opinions on some film study for everyone to see. People can form their own opinions as to how the O-line has performed. Your opinion is that the O-line has performed poorly.

I have not adopted Scott Pioli's losing mentality at all. I'm not sure where you are forming that opinion. Above you criticized azchiefsfan for shooting the messenger. Who's doing that now?

Originally Posted by brdempsey69

It's routine for a team to bring more heat when they have the lead and know the opposing team has to throw. They tried it on Brees when they got ahead & his protection held up. Simple, really.

Did they try it on Brees? I charted everyone of Brees's throws in the 2nd quarter of that game. The first time New Orleans got the ball in that quarter they were down 21-7. It's actually more routine for defenses when they are up to sit back and not allow big plays. But anyway, here's how each of Brees's passes ended up and how many rushers TB brought:

In the second quarter, TB brought 5 rushers 3 times in 15 passes (hey look at that, also 20%). They also brought 3 rushers just as many times as they brought 5. So no, they did not bring more heat. They brought the exact same amount of heat.

Not once did Tampa Bay bring more than 5 rushers in the first half, despite a 21-7 lead.

It's very clear to me that you are watching these games, but you're making unsupported claims to support your side of this argument. I watch a lot of film, I love doing it. If you claim something, I'm going to go look for it in the film. When I don't see those claims, I have to wonder why we should value your opinion.

If I recall, we had a similar argument over Berry giving up a TD a couple years ago. You said he did, I said it was Derrick Johnson's fault b/c they were in a Tampa 2 coverage where Johnson has the deep middle of the field, Berry had the right side of the field. The pass was completed to Lloyd for a TD in the middle of the field and that time I showed you why it was Johnson's fault.

Anyway, good debate. I'm not going to spend anymore time on it. I've presented my side as I see fit and will let others form their opinions.