I have only been climbing for 10 years or so, but I think I have a feel for what the grade on routes should be (in this country). I love to get on 8A an see what is going on with friends/climbers around the globe. But come on guys! BE HONEST AND REAL WITH THE GRADES! Disclaimer: to much vino and viewing recent peoples ascents today... I know that we all want to think we are getting better all the time and we want to see progress via sending piss easy inflated "new school" graded routes. The wailing wall is rad.. Pipedream is killer... Riggins well its ok... But come on.. Go to the VRG, Smith, Potasi, etc. Then tell me those routes warrant grades they get!

I guess it doesn't really matter anyway... I love to climb.... I don't need to report any routes for my sponsors...

Snyder go back to Smith and you'll find it's not as hard as it was 10 yrs. ago. Riggins is the biggest sandbag crag in the world, and since people have been doing the routes lately there's a little consensus in grading. Maple is inflated. The RRG got a lot of bargains. There's some bargains at VRG (Joe six pack) but stiff. It doesnt matter cause i hate climbing (since i dont have time to do it properly) and i dont have any sponsors.

And for godsakes quit hanging out with old man robinson cause i think he might be getting you all bitter and shit. --Bland out

Prime example of the fact that we need a breathalizer for emails. Whats with these vegas/st. george locals gettin' vino'd up and writing shit. Potasi is stout. That is why nobody goes there and everybody goes to Maple. (get real they are both chipped). But i thought the Potasi and riggins ratings were pretty inline with each other, shit and i had a blown tendon and was not in shape the whole time i was at potasi. I do agree that maybe some of the recent uprating at riggins is maybe making it a little soft, or maybe just inline with the rest of the world (lot of maybe in there). As for the new/old school ratings, there are plenty of soft "old school" crags like leslie, all the old st. george stuff like black and tan, AF, and red rocks. And plenty of stout "new school" crags like anything in the spokane area (deep creek, marcus, china bend, etc.)

Maybe you should start drinking better wine (like Indian Creek) and it won't make you so jealous about everybody else sending hard.

BTW when are you coming up here? Shaven Haven is waiting a third and power tube should need a second soon.

hey mike.......i think it might be the heat. i am guilty of drinkin' and typin'. but i'm not bitter or jealous. just confused. in defense of my awesome local crag.....the cathedral/wailing wall.......it is the fault of the guidebook author who could give a shit less about accuracy, and more about selling a pretty but expensive guidebook. you know, like 'sniffing glue' that you did. everyone knows it's not 13d, but it has never been changed in the lazy guide book to southern utah.

in collaboration with locals and non-locals, i put together a topo with accurate grades and info for the wailing wall. even with that in hand, people still posted the higher grades knowing that it was wrong. the same is true with the pipedream and mininum at maple. do you think that once the NEW maple guidebook is out with the lowered grades, people will change their scorecard? i think not! hence the problem with a site like this. so whatever.

anyway, i'm out of wine. could you send me a bottle of that Indian Creek? I like a good red.......

I don’t usually participate in things like this; its all opinion and pretty silly to argue over but I’ve been at the Indian Creek vino myself which, in addition to being great tasting, apparently also makes you more philosophical. Anyway, I figured I’d throw my two cents in:

A clamber up a rock face is graded by consensus. One can yell “old-school/new-school” all they want but when it comes down to it, it’s all done the same – J.B. Tribout posed a grade of 13c for Rude Boys in Smith and everybody agreed with him, Dave Graham’s China Beach at Rumney was originally suggested in the guidebook as 14a but was thought to be sandbagged and is now excepted at 14b, and Hell Comes To Frogtown in the VRG was figured to be 14a by more than one “old-schooler” but fell to Fred Nicole and a trend of bouldering power that is now considered on the softer side of 13d.

For me, Yellowman at Riggins is just slightly harder than Rude Boys at Smith, both of which I consider to be benchmark 13c. My girlfriend and her miniature five foot stature (who would have to jump an extra 18 inches at the dyno on yellowman) might disagree. She would probably proclaim yellowman to be significantly harder do to the bigger moves. Dose that mean these routes aren’t the same grade?

When you have a bunch of opinions it doesn’t matter what an individual thinks. Sure there are going to be people that will take grades on the high end to feel better about themselves, just like there will be people that sandbag because of insecurities about being downgraded or feelings of jealousy about others successes….we all have an ego to deal with. But an average brings the inflators, sandbaggers, and brutally honest all together in one neat little package. So in the long run, grade a route however you like. If the route’s good, time will no doubt bring a stream of ascentionists to let you know how you stack up………..if any of it really matters.

BRAVO!! It is good to see responses on this topic... I know Riggins is a total sanbag. And that is why you guys have responded.

Johny,

The routes I refer to at Riggin's are all of them... Why do we need to upgrade? FUCK IT! I new they were sandbagged when I did them.. Don't let ego get in the way. Just call it what the first ascentionest called it. Who cares right? The "new school" comment was ment to fire you strong mutants up! I know my place in the pecking order... But as Been Moon stated in a very good article about the inflation of grades... We are seeing it across the globe.

FAT BOY BLAND,

Well,

Step it up bitch! So you have a buisness and a kid... I'm suprised you didn't upgrade the cave routes more with your linebacker build! Grandpa may be rubbing off on me he is one pessimistic son of a bitch!

Polinski,

Of course frogtown is piss easy. The progression of the sport has made that style of climbing easy. Us old guys aren't used to haning on to bullshit. We are used to climbing on jugs for ever! Come visit us in vegas and try the real hard lines sometime. Not the fluff that Kindner and the "fluff crew climbed on. Funny how Bachelor Party, Annilalator, ghettobooty, guttbuster, etc.. have seen no repeats! They are fucking hard! One day all this negative press about drilled routes will subside when all the tree hugging, yoga master, shampoo making, wankers come back to the states. Good to see Sharma finally come climb all of levits glued drilled masterpieces... Pardon my french but fuck all you purest that think Vegas is drilled up piles. Everywhere is! What are these newschool climbers waiting for? Some pure 100% natural route to bolt? Be a realist! their arent' to many around boys and girls!

God I love this! Bring the debate boys and girls!

McClure,

You are obviously stronger than I. I have no problem with the progression of the sport. I now my place in the sport. I'm weak and old... But I do now the importance of being real with grades! By the way REPEATS DON'T COUNT JEN'S. How gay is that! Of course I can go repeat shit all day to get points. As far as power tube or Shaven Haven? Like I am going to drive/fly to go fail on some drilled up shit that doesn't matter. Send Power tube though! You got the pimp juice. Just give it a good grade. Not some Wilkinson inflated shit!

Good to see some response. I didn't expect tio hear from the real weasles that wouldn't respond eh boys? You know who I am talking about. Props to you thouugh.. You guys are gifted, but at least be real about the grades. You have nothing to prove. We know you are famous in a sport tha means nothting! Ha ha...

Dale-Egoism is not the issue at Riggins. As I'm sure you're aware, ego or egoism is an exaggerated sense of self importance and I can assure you none of the current crew currently at Rigins suffers from that cancer.

But whether you want to admit it or not, ego, egoism or ego tripping, which is an act that gratifies the ego (or self), is the catalyst that drives us all to climb. The bottom line is this, climbing is inherently selfish. No other person benefits when I clip the anchors other then me. Not my belayer, not my wife, and not my dogs. And then it's only a temporary high b/c I need to move on to the next project, and then the next, and then the next - And my projects don't get easier b/c I want to climb harder. I don't go to Riggins or anywhere else to see pretty mountains and meet interesting people. I go there to climb and climb routes that challenge me.You know all this and I suspect you are the same way. So to say "dont let ego get in the way" is not only impossible, it's crazy talk.

Your next statement that we should just take the grade the first ascentioinist took it is crazy too. You don't even do this. If you review your score card it will illustrate how you typically downrate routes (Please see Squeel like a Pig and The Great Feast). So you don't even follow your own advice.

The problem is this: Sport climbers typically fall into two cateogories - Grade inflators and Down raters. Grade inflators hate down raters b/c they believe they're not honest and down raters hate grade inflators b/c they believe they're not honest and the snake keeps eating its own tail and we all suffer from the same disease.

Dont call Wilkinson out b/c you think he inflates grades when you go around and downrate grades. It's the same thing.

If all you do is downrate routes, and never uprate, then your not being honest and you, in fact, are suffering from the ego trip.

Try and do this Dale: Take the grade you think is right.Quit worrying about what other people do and worry about yourself.And remember if not for guys like Bland and Wilkinson, we wouldnt have anything to climb.

Just finnished off a six pack of Malt liquor..............(Red wine is for Sally's anyway)

Let the Spray Continue......... ha ha ha ha ah ah ah ah ha ha ha

Your right Bland needs to quit eating, start climbing and lose 63 lbs. Seth is one pessimistic SOB. Many brilliant routes have drilled pockets. McClure needs to get in the game and send power tube. Hippies fucking Smell!!!!!!!!! The last time I went the climbing gym the kid working there asked me if I needed rental gear, (shows my level of fortune and fame).

I must admit there is nothing I enjoy more than sandbagging some sprayer.Learned that skill from Bland.

Dear Douche Bags, I might be out of shape for rockclimbing but I am still far more ripped than some of you will ever even dream of being. And if society ever breaks down, I take joy in the knowledge that I will be able to easily hunt and kill most of the participants of 8a.nu. The higher thier scorecard, the easier the kill. ---Bland out.

you guys are a bunch of assholes. I've been wanting to go to Maple for years to send all those gimmes. And now this shit is blowing up. Somebody is going to write a new guidebook and grade everything appropriately. I don't even want to go there anymore. Thanks for ruining it for me and everyone. What are you going to do next, downgrade everything at Jacks canyon? The information superhighway is ruining the once fine art of gimme hunting. Fuck you guys.

Goddamn u wankers! How is it I got dragged into all this bickering? Figured while I'm here I won't let you all down... While I tend to agree with most of Dale's points of contention (I have to, he is my main climbing bitch) I must admit he does indeed go off at the mouth once you get a drink in him. Its not his fault, I knew a lot of chicks in college that acted the same.

Marty,Dale will never go to Smith because Smith doesn't have any holds he can hang onto. True Smith isn't as hard as everyone leads on. There are gimmes in abundance, not any of the hard routes though unfortunately. VRG? Joe Nut Packs is probably the only gimme... Bloody Mary is harder.

Ray,Just cuz your a big time attorney doesn't mean you get to use big words like: "ego" and "catalyst" and "selfish" and "inflators" and "downraters". Please, I went to college too about a hundred years ago and I don't think the average 8a subscriber can keep up with all this, so lets dumb it down a bit, eh.

Anyway, lookin forward to my trip to Maple in a couple weeks! You wanks have fun climbing on poorly chipped tweak-fest pockets and slippery limestone at Riggins! I'll be yinkin on chipped handlebars in the Pipedream, with kneebars!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wooohooo!!

Final entry... Sober this time. Thanks for all the laugh's. I enjoyed the sprayfest.. Reminds me of being at camp all buzzed after a good day at the cliff. Prop's to all you climber's out there trying hard. Special thanks to all those first ascentionist's like Bland and Wilkinson. Nice work on the flash Joey!

Bland, McClure, Dale, Seth, Tammy, Ray you guys better back up before you get jacked up. My hands are registered downtown as lethal weapons and I swear to God I'll go back Jail if anyone tries to change the grade Lard (5.10d) .

Robinson, if I see you at the crag your getting a "Spencer Davey " number 2 special. Good to see your back into climbing and have a good trip.

Just observing but, looks like those new school grades are treating your scorecard well at Maple Dale? Care to take the real ratings? (I'll give you the onsights cause usually the moves get done wrong and they feel hard and probably are as hard as they feel)

I was at Maple last summer and realized what all the hype was. It was a lot like the Red, if you can just hold on for 100 or so feet then you can climb anything that you want. In these areas there are no real rock climbing skills necessary, at all! However, in areas like the New River Gorge, and anywhere in the southeast, you have to bring your A game and be able to pull some tricks out of your ass to get something done. I invite all you tough guys to the New River, see if you can climb your little 5.14s here. I'll even put you on the gimme circuit. Pssshhhh. Lightweights!!

Ok Jessa, you got us. Everybody knows that all the grades in the west were derived from Red Rocks and Maple Canyon, but please let us live this little fantasy that we can, really, really climb 14a. Thanks, and hope to see you at Smith or The New real soon!!!

If I am going to fly all the way back to bfe I am surely climbing on the gimmies that will give me points for my scorecard. Bland, of course I am going to keep the fluff grades. I always do 14a in a few days anyway... Keep uprating all the shit at Riggins and add somemore gay ass link-ups and I may come up there again.

Damn, not sure how u wanks do it but somehow I always get dragged into these lil pissing matches! Let me elaborate a bit more:

First, Dear Jessa,Everyone knows there are NO hard routes in the southeast much less up north at the New. The only reason the slightly difficult routes feel hard is cuz the humidity is 120% all the time and the mosquitoes are festering between your leg loops and your nutsack ... if u are fortunate enough to have one. So, please, until you come out west to Maple, Riggins, Red Rocks, Utah Hills and do some seriously Stiff routes lets not talk too much shit. Sprot Climbin is defined out here doll, ya.

Dale,You're drunk and we shoulda met at the Rhino

Blander,You're just jealous you weren't at Maple with us onsightin jug haul 12's and 13's that would only be 11b at Smith. So settle down and go hike some Pile at the Pit I seconded after you over-rated it seven years ago and throw it on as a repeat but two grades harder. (was that a run-on sentence?... never mind) I'm out bitches!

Damn Jessa, you just got served. Seth made fun of you for not having a nut sack. And then he challenged you to go out to maple and try some stiff routes. Didn't you onsight 13a out there? It must have been really low humidity that day.

Seth, I have been to many sport areas in the west that you are speaking of, overall, the grades are soft. In fact whenever my scorecard is seriously slipping the west is where I go to beef up the scorecard. I'm sorry to correct you Seth but the humidity here is only 95%. You are exagerrating a little bit. As for the routes, nobody likes coming here because they get bouted on the warm ups and have a lot harder time beefing up their scorecards. So it is easier to talk shit. Oh, and it actually takes real rock climbing skills to send hard in the southeast (everyone knows that). Sorry guys!!