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Topic: Gluten Strength (Read 20507 times)

Also, is it better to warm ferment for an hour or so before placing the dough in the refrigerator for a 24 to 72 hour cold ferment after mix/knead?

I just noticed the one ball I warm fermented after kneading for two hours, then placed in fridge for 24 hours has less of a good smell than the one ball I placed in fridge directly after kneading. So the smell of the cold only ferment smells better.

I was a little confused on the graph "water-right.jpg" and " water-left.jpg" :

a. These two graphs represent four different temperatures ( two water, 2 air). Yet I see only two temperature elements. Am I missing something?b. One of these graphs shows the water lower temp than air ( water-left.jpg), the other shows the air lower temp than the water (water-right.jpg). Is this correct?

Also ( help me, the engineer always comes out):

1. Why do you feel 64-66F/24 hours is best for IDY? Is there further reading on this?2. I have read that the lower temp always the bacteria to reproduce better, and slows down the yeast, thus increasing lactic acid. And that flour naturally have bacteria in it that will accomplish this. I notice you have a culture, I do not. Do you feel all flour has some bacteria to replicate this affect resulting in lactic acid?3. Does the bacteria growth result in other by products?4. Why not just add these by products in (lactic acid, acetic acid, etc)?5. I am thinking a small wall mount A/C from Home Depot, and a small insulated box may accomplish the desired 64-66F. Comments?

scott123

Scott, I'm pretty sure you have used both All Trumps bromated and All Trumps unbromated. You too, Chau? Anyone else? If so, I'd love to hear how your experience compares to mine.

I've never used unbromated AT (it's basically impossible to find it around it), but I have tracked the progress of some that have, and, due the underwhelming performance, I've gone to great lengths to dissuade people from purchasing it. If you can get bromated, use that (and if you can get lower protein bromated, that's even better). Otherwise, if you can't get bromated, then Pendleton is the better choice.

Also, my understanding is that iodine in the early/mid 1900's was used, then it was replaced with Bromine in the mid century.

Not sure if Bromine works better, or if it was cheaper. It competes with iodine in the uptake to the thyroid (theoretically), they are close on the element scale. Some claim this is the reason for many ills, but I also read it is evaporated during baking, which I cant see how, it's a solid.

1. Anyone ever tried iodine in the flour? 2. How big of a difference does bromated flour make in the final product?

Also, my understanding is that iodine in the early/mid 1900's was used, then it was replaced with Bromine in the mid century.

Not sure if Bromine works better, or if it was cheaper. It competes with iodine in the uptake to the thyroid (theoretically), they are close on the element scale. Some claim this is the reason for many ills, but I also read it is evaporated during baking, which I cant see how, it's a solid.

1. Anyone ever tried iodine in the flour? 2. How big of a difference does bromated flour make in the final product?

No. Bromine is a toxic, caustic, dark red liquid. I think you mean potassium bromate. It would be very foolish to try to make your own bromated flour.

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

I was a little confused on the graph "water-right.jpg" and " water-left.jpg" :

a. These two graphs represent four different temperatures ( two water, 2 air). Yet I see only two temperature elements. Am I missing something?

Itís two separate tests to simulate placing the dough in the center next to the ice and on the far side away from the ice.

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b. One of these graphs shows the water lower temp than air ( water-left.jpg), the other shows the air lower temp than the water (water-right.jpg). Is this correct?

Itís not water temp. Itís the air temp above the container of water (heat mass - as opposed to the container of air). You can see how when the water is farther from the ice, it cools slower. You can use this knowledge to fine tune your fermentation.

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Also ( help me, the engineer always comes out):

1. Why do you feel 64-66F/24 hours is best for IDY? Is there further reading on this?

Itís personal preference. Iíve experimented with a wide range of temps, and this is where Iíve found the best (IMO) flavor to develop. Itís a lot more pronounced for sourdough. At least one other member who has probably experimented more than me has come to the same conclusion. IMO, you can produce more flavor in a day at 64F than 3-4 days in the fridge.

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2. I have read that the lower temp always the bacteria to reproduce better, and slows down the yeast, thus increasing lactic acid.

Bacteria arenít a material factor in a typical IDY (or any other form of bakerís yeast) dough. In a typical sourdough culture, there isnít much difference in the growth rate of bacteria and yeast until the temperature passes 80F. You can see it in the growth rate chart here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html

Lactic acid production is favored in warmer temps in both hetero and homofermentation. Lactic acid production is directly related to activity. Cooler temps favor acetic acid formation. Acetic acid production indirectly influenced by temperature because it affects the kinds of sugars available.

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And that flour naturally have bacteria in it that will accomplish this. I notice you have a culture, I do not. Do you feel all flour has some bacteria to replicate this affect resulting in lactic acid?

No. Definitely not in quantities that are material.

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3. Does the bacteria growth result in other by products?

Yes, dozens of volatile and non-volatile compounds: organic acids, alcohols, esters, carbonyls, aldehydes, ketones, etc. If you are interested, PM your email to me and Iíll send you some journal articles to read.

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4. Why not just add these by products in (lactic acid, acetic acid, etc)?

You have a bottle of lactic acid lying around? I donít think itís quite that simple.

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5. I am thinking a small wall mount A/C from Home Depot, and a small insulated box may accomplish the desired 64-66F. Comments?

A wine cooler would probably be a lot easier Ė or get an old fridge and a PID controller.

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

I should note that my "sourdough" crust is not sour - most sourdough (SD) isn't. My goal is not to make San Francisco sourdough bread pizza. I have a different culture that would do it, but I don't like that in pizza. I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Its a much fuller flavor than you can get from baker's yeast, but definitely not sour. I'd be curious to taste a dough made with the direct addition of lactic acid - my guess is that it will be very one-dimensional. There is a lot of other stuff going on in SD dough. I'm also curious how it will affect the yeast. In a normal dough, the build-up of acids is very slow. Added directly, it will have to be all at once.

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

I should note that my "sourdough" crust is not sour - most sourdough (SD) isn't. My goal is not to make San Francisco sourdough bread pizza. I have a different culture that would do it, but I don't like that in pizza. I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Its a much fuller flavor than you can get from baker's yeast, but definitely not sour. I'd be curious to taste a dough made with the direct addition of lactic acid - my guess is that it will be very one-dimensional. There is a lot of other stuff going on in SD dough. I'm also curious how it will affect the yeast. In a normal dough, the build-up of acids is very slow. Added directly, it will have to be all at once.

OK, I see, I just assumed sourdough, sour taste desired, therefore add lactic acid. Not so, as you say many activities going on in there, which I believe is not even fully understood by the academic world.

Problem with pre ferment is it would be like having a pet to take care of, must feed and water it.

Do any/most of the famous NY pizzerias use pre ferment? Any major chains?

Speaking of NY style, has anybody tried Johnny's in Atlanta, spun off from NY.? Near the airport. I did, I thought best I ever had.

Your description " I would describe my dough flavor as "rich" or even a little "creamy." Makes me envious,

OK, I see, I just assumed sourdough, sour taste desired, therefore add lactic acid. Not so, as you say many activities going on in there, which I believe is not even fully understood by the academic world.

Acetic acid is typically responsible for most of the sour flavor in shourdough. Lactic acid tends to contribute more to the aroma.

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Problem with pre ferment is it would be like having a pet to take care of, must feed and water it.

But unlike a pet, you can stick it in the fridge for several months with no ill effect.

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Do any/most of the famous NY pizzerias use pre ferment? Any major chains?

No, very few places do. Not because baker's yeast delivers a better product but rather because it is much simpler and requires a lot less in the way of skilled labor.

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Acetic acid is typically responsible for most of the sour flavor in shourdough. Lactic acid tends to contribute more to the aroma.

But unlike a pet, you can stick it in the fridge for several months with no ill effect.

No, very few places do. Not because baker's yeast delivers a better product but rather because it is much simpler and requires a lot less in the way of skilled labor.

Good info.

Was thinking, the articles I read on fermentation via yeast, is mostly all they produce is ethanol and CO2. Then in other articles, they mention yeast producing "other" items, no detailed explanation. Then others say they release an enzyme, amylase, to break complex carbs into simple sugars, therefore giving flavor. Then other articles suggest the flour already has amylase, and the water activates it, which produces the flavorful sugars. And then I read the yeast can only eat simple sugars, which are not in flour.Yeast is a single cell creature ( I think), and given that, I would doubt it has enough ability to make an enzyme, but I don't know.

So maybe enzymes are present in flour, but enzymes are typically destroyed at 118 F. So if the milling process gets that high, flour would have no enzyme activity.

Bacteria are multiple cell creatures, so i would think their by products of reproducing and digestion would release many more by products than a simple yeast, which I think is sort of a virus.

Can not really find many scholarly articles that actually prove by products.