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I think respect for the often limited time of students is also important, and sometimes lacking.

I have trained 5 and 6 days a week for a few years, and about two days a month for some months, and just about everything in between. Four days a week seems to be a lower limit to feel good about what I am doing, below that there is a big drop off in the quality of practice. A dimension just isn't there.

That said, there have been times I simply could not practice more than a couple of days a week. That two day a week commitment may be absolutely precious to a student, the very best they can do for the time being. The instructor can do a lot to help make it count, or at any rate to not get in the way. There is nothing so exasperating as finally getting to the dojo and getting in maybe 30 minutes on the hour of actual practice.

I don't watch any TV at all. And I spend very little time on aikiweb, either! But a bit too much tonight...

Definitions and defined goals are important, but it depends a lot on what the source of your training is, where the focus is, and what the instructor knows. If one trains only the physical, and the source is only technical, then it usually takes a fair amount of training on the mat to get good, unless one has a gift for it.

If one's training revolves around developing the consciousness and skill of reorganizing one's interior landscape into being able to grasp the subtlety of what Aiki and Aikido are at the energetic levels, and learning to integrate and externalize that in a realistic manner that is both morally and martially responsible, then the time one trains on the mat and in life is all relative. If you have the right teacher, twice a week is ok. Three is usually better, but the rest of one's life becomes a part of the process anyway. It actually depends on one's internal commitment, how close you get to the instructor, and if he or she actually knows the stuff and has the ability to induct you into the awareness and experience of it.

Sure... but I'm not claiming that I can reach the same level of skill as someone who trains five days a week, and I'm certainly not claiming that I'm qualified to open my own dojo and award rank to other people.

Only training twice a week doesn't make you a bad person. There's nothing "wrong" with only training twice a week. It's just not enough to develop any real skill. (At any physical art, not just aikido.)

Edit: Actually, make that any art, physical or not. Writers, photographers, and people learning a language need more practice, too.

Sure... but I'm not claiming that I can reach the same level of skill as someone who trains five days a week, and I'm certainly not claiming that I'm qualified to open my own dojo and award rank to other people.

The instructor can do a lot to help make it count, or at any rate to not get in the way. There is nothing so exasperating as finally getting to the dojo and getting in maybe 30 minutes on the hour of actual practice.

I'm a big fan of longer classes for exactly this reason. Three classes a week gets me nine practice hours. That's a much better return on the time spent driving to and from, changing, warming up, etc. than I would get if classes were only an hour long.

However, I cannot accept that a focused and dedicated person attending classes twice a week would not be able to attain the same skill level as they would if training three or even four times a week. It would simply take them more "years" to put in the same hours to get there.

I think it is completely irrational that an average american spends 18 hours watching TV .....

and completely untrue.

"The Nielsen Co.'s "Three Screen Report" -- referring to televisions, computers and cellphones -- for the fourth quarter said the average American now watches more than 151 hours of TV a month. That's about five hours a day and an all-time high, up 3.6% from the 145 or so hours Americans reportedly watched in the same period last year.."

Quote:
"However, I cannot accept that a focused and dedicated person attending classes twice a week would not be able to attain the same skill level as they would if training three or even four times a week. It would simply take them more "years" to put in the same hours to get there."

Unless you happen to live next to your dojo, this comparison is invalid. It takes me a minimum of 45 minutes to get to the dojo, and that's if absolutely everything goes right. My one hour of training (which is all that is available some days) actually takes a minimum of two and a half hours out of my day.

You could move, you know.

There are always choices. They may not be the choices that you (or I) would make, but they always exist.

Hi Paulina,
You are right of course, and that is pretty much what I have done. I have students who now run dojos and have more members than I do at mine.
These folks manage to work in their three times a week, so I am loathe to believe that others simply cannot do so. And that "magic" third class over the twice makes a huge difference. Sure, they'd be better if they trained more and harder. But they are doing pretty excellent Aikido overall.

Sensei Ledyard and what about if the owner of the dojo where our sensei is teaching is giving TKD classes and there is only 90 minutes time left for aikido 2 times a week?
I surely would go 3 times a week if there would be classes

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote:

I think that people who don't actually care if they do better on some level damage the art. Even if you only train twice a week or even once a week, you should be trying hard within those parameters to be as good as you possibly can be. To train with no investment in getting better is a cop out and pretty much guarantees that neither good technical skill nor good spirituality will come from the practice. A teacher with that kind of student will lose his or her edge and will eventually stop demanding more of himself or the students. A student with great potential will be held back in his progress and will not be able to be excellent at a place where this type of student is prevalent.......

Maybe there should be two separate arts... Aikido and Aikido-lite. Then there wouldn't be so much confusion and no one would have his or her feelings hurt when someone says you have to train three times a week to do Aikido. You just trot down the street and find the Aikido-lite dojo. At the Aikido-lite dojo no one is allowed to train every day unless he or she limits the level of intensity and effort in the practice to make sure that excellence doesn't accidentally creep in. Anyone trying too hard will be asked to leave and go find an Aikido dojo.

This is really what happens now, but with much confusion. The Dan Certificates all say Aikido. Yet a Nidan at one place may have almost nothing in common with a Nidan at another. I have seen a very experienced martial artist driven out of an Aikido dojo because the folks training there were all so scared of the guy because he could actually punch and kick, not the nonsense everyone else was doing. They made it so unpleasant for him to be there that he left. He knew, and everyone else knew, that he could have hit any of them at will. That didn't fit in with the story they were telling themselves about how committed they all were to Aikido and their martial arts training.

What about the aikido drop out rate in the States treated in another threat, I was surprised reading about that, because in our dojo almost every month is coming someone new and they are all staying, last year we were 5 new shodan, every body is still training and this year we have only one but 3 or 4 for next year.. Our sensei is very commited to progress although it is very dificult and expensive for us to move from the island to go to seminars.
In our dojo almost all of us put all our effort to progress, we all care very much. So I don't think we damage the art just it is the contrary. But beside al the care we put in the training we enjoy ourselves and I think that is the point of the success in our dojo.
I train as much as I can but not think from myself to be a highlevel aikidoka and I sure don't care for the grades beside a nidan costs min 200€ and a sandan €300

You've said something very insulting. Especially towards people I've met. Some people I'm in communication with, and know.

I mean man, you insulted your own Shihan. Stop bashing your head. Just be more respectful to seniors.

I'm not trying to be mean...what you said was just wrong, and these men and women's character shouldn't be in question.

You tell yourself whatever stories you want to, Maggie. You have been all along, and you will continue to do so, no matter what I say. You tell yourself whatever stories gratify whatever need it is you have, and you tell yourself that they're true. You keep right on doing that. I, however, don't have to listen to them.

This same thread has been posted about once per year over the 10 years that I've been on here. It comes up, gets over-analyzed and the core issue missed. Repeatedly.

My thesis is that moderate training over the long haul is what pays for 99% of students. I can't write a defense here, I have other things to do. However, let me drop a few quick thoughts before I have to go to work.

1. One cannot buy their aikido with hours recorded in the training log, seminars attended, repetitions performed. It leaves out efficiency and quality from various perspectives.

Related is "settling time". Every study of pedagogy that I have read indicates the superiority of short, focused instruction periods separated by periods of settling time.

2. People are prone enough to succumb to the idea that aikido is just about doing techniques. We shouldn't be tempting them down that path.

In addition to mat time, they should, spend some time in study outside the dojo that allows their time on the mat to be more productive and develop a deeper appreciation of the art. I humbly suggest that it should include studying the Aikido Journal archives. Lots of good information there. Said it before, will say it again "Stan is The Man".

3. When you get right down it, life is much bigger than aikido. An *intemperate* focus on aikido to the exclusion of family and profession is a road to unhappiness. Been there, and only very drastic action got me out of that tar pit. Aikido has a flat learning curve. The only way to really get anywhere is consistent, *long-term* training. For most students, asking them to commit four or five nights per week will impact their family and professional responsibilities and is, therefore, is ill-considered.

So, my conclusion, tying this to "shut up and train", is train when health and life's responsibilities allow and *train*, do not just exercise or waste valuable time in talk. If it is two days per week is what life allows, then train two days per week. On the flip side, as long as health allows, it is better to train than sit watching TV.

Life is short. Sieze the day, but sieze the day for *your* happiness, not someone else's idea of what it should be.

Greg J.

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

You have entered a discussion where there are multiple layers of nuance. I would take a moment to reread the thread for a better understanding of what is really going on. You words above seem more an insult than anything. I'm sure they weren't meant that way.

For instance, if Shioda and Tomiki took about 5 years to get really good at aikido, then why is it that 40+ years of training hasn't created more like them? So, the adage of "shut up and train" can be construed to just be a mindless sheep listening and learning from teachers who have yet to attain any appreciable level (compared to the Aikido Greats). "Eat more rice", "it's a 20 year technique", etc.

One of the nuances being discussed here is the Modern Aikido vs aiki approach. Another nuance is, as George stated in his post #71, is directed towards teachers. Another is historical.

"Shut up and train" is not, IMO, very constructive in regards to this thread. I'm sure you have some very good actual content that you could post and it would be refreshing to read it.

"The Nielsen Co.'s "Three Screen Report" -- referring to televisions, computers and cellphones -- for the fourth quarter said the average American now watches more than 151 hours of TV a month. That's about five hours a day and an all-time high, up 3.6% from the 145 or so hours Americans reportedly watched in the same period last year.."

I don't want to get in a statistic discussion, but assuming your 5 hours a day is right, that is 35 hours a week watching TV, computer and cell phones. In the face of that, 2 hours of training a week is nothing. This only serves to emphasize my point. People have the time to train, they just put other things ahead of it.

You tell yourself whatever stories you want to, Maggie. You have been all along, and you will continue to do so, no matter what I say. You tell yourself whatever stories gratify whatever need it is you have, and you tell yourself that they're true. You keep right on doing that. I, however, don't have to listen to them.

You have said something very insulting though. One of the people involved in this discussion is a Aikikai Shihan with children, and you called all Aikikai Shihan unfit parents. That is exceptionally rude, and I am insulted because I am acquainted with Peter and Penny Bernet. They are not bad parents. They are good people who love what they do as well as their children.

Ryan, Maggie, and whoever else wants to dive into the far spectrum of things ... why not ask Mary exactly what she meant when she posted

Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote:

Out of curiosity, how many shihan are parents? Or, let's be blunt, how many shihan are not men who have dumped their parental responsibilities onto their wives?

There are, and always have been, plenty of men who are deeply dedicated to their career or profession or whatever, and who are fathers only in the biological sense. That's very different from being a parent.

Because if you read it again in a neutral voice, you'll see that Mary never stated anything specific about any one person. And to pick up the question about time spent becoming a shihan ... just how many hours did these shihan spend in training? From a purely historical perspective, what amount of time did the shihan (all of them) spend in their training to reach that status? How many were married and what amount of time was spent on family life?

Now, toss in how many of the Japanese shihan had work responsibilities that took up (I'm fairly sure) most of their daily life, what proportion of time left went to training and family?

Let's take one famous Japanese, Takeda Sokaku. It's pretty much known that Sue raised Tokimune. Sokaku was rarely at home to do so. Good or bad? Go ahead, be the judge. I certainly won't.

So, why jump all over Mary when she never stated someone specific? I did state someone specific. You want to judge Takeda Sokaku?

How about taking a step back, rereading things without jumping to conclusions? Why not let Mary say the specifics of what she wants to say? You might be surprised at what she really meant. Or maybe not. But you'll never know by taking the route you did take.

If they're so focused and dedicated, how come they're only in class twice a week?

It's a physical art. I don't think you'll find any teacher or coach in any physical art, from recorder playing (Hi Pauliina!) to baseball, who will agree that twice a week is enough.

In my own experience, I plateau at two classes a week. I make steady progress at three. I make faster progress at four, but can't sustain that for long before other parts of my life suffer more than I'm willing to allow. Other kinds of off-mat physical training help me maintain my conditioning, but they don't help my aikido much.

Thanks, Katherine! I was about to make this same observation from my own personal experience, and read a little farther down the thread before posting.

Some would say that we need more opportunities for aikido people to train at the elite levels. I would say that those opportunities are already there, and that people need to decide to make those sacrifices and commit to that level of training if that is what they want to achieve. Dedication means sacrifice, people, and you get what you pay for. "Agatsu," victory over self, implies sacrifice.

I have taken the long road, and have spent many years (decades, in fact) working up to the meager rank of Nidan, and have been blessed to have seen my own students (from my kids aikido classes) who have blossomed, planted, and bloomed into Nidans before they left University. I have trained more frequently (as an uchi deshi for a while, 6-7 days a week), and less frequently (as little as twice a month), depending on my current level of dedication and involvement in the rest of my life. I am happily 45 years old, and have been training in aikido since college, with only a few short respites. I have traveled to Japan three times so far and practiced with many wonderful teachers both there and in the states, including all of the major Shihan in the US. I am happy to see that my support of the art has enabled others more dedicated to be able to achieve things I have not, and I will be continuing my progress at whatever rate my dedication allows me to achieve.

This is MY path, my WAY. No one can convince me that you cannot walk the path unless you run it quickly. I meet wonderful people along the way, some of us meet at the same waypoint, others just wave as we pass by on different levels of the switchbacks. We help each other along the way. Everyone reaches a different destination along the way at any given point in time. This is in keeping with O-Sensei's message of harmony as much as anything is.

For the art to continue, we need to acknowledge and support the fact that some people are more dedicated than others and are willing to sacrifice to make great progress in the art and become the elite aikido athletes and future Shihans. While not all of us are going to excel at that level, all of us can and should participate at whatever level of dedication and training we can avail ourselves of, and always strive to improve.

Any athletic organization has feeder systems and bush leagues and such to both weed out the less enthused and give the less trained a place to start. Aikido is blessed with a fairly self-selecting system that enables anyone to achieve higher rank through dedicated training. People simply need to step back and gain a little real perspective and decide if their personal level of dedication is going to make them an "elite marathon runner" or a "fitness runner." Aikido is more of a relay race than an individual event, if you take my meaning -- it's part of the way to be willing to pass the baton and help the faster runner along towards victory.

Did you not type, "Out of curiosity, how many shihan are parents? Or, let's be blunt, how many shihan are not men who have dumped their parental responsibilities onto their wives?

There are, and always have been, plenty of men who are deeply dedicated to their career or profession or whatever, and who are fathers only in the biological sense. That's very different from being a parent"?

You are indirectly calling shihan with children deadbeat dads with such statements. You didn't name names, but you talk about it like it is common practice.

You have said something very insulting though. One of the people involved in this discussion is a Aikikai Shihan with children, and you called all Aikikai Shihan unfit parents. That is exceptionally rude, and I am insulted because I am acquainted with Peter and Penny Bernet. They are not bad parents. They are good people who love what they do as well as their children.

*****

Quote:

You are indirectly calling shihan with children deadbeat dads with such statements. You didn't name names, but you talk about it like it is common practice.

Ok, first, so at least acknowledge you're backing away from your first statement.

Second, Dude, you guys kill me.

Why are you "insulted" exactly, aside from the fact that you seem to want to win an argument and its convenient? Do you have such low regard for these hothouse shihan that you doubt they can speak for themselves if they felt maligned? Ever think that maybe they don't because ... because of whatever, but, really, why is it your problem?

Third, can we please get back to some semblance of a discussion about something other than whether your significant other was right or wrong in her chortling declaration of victory over big, mean, bad Mary.

You guys think hours=commitment. OK, we get it. Go knock yourselves out, and best of luck in your training.

Ryan, Maggie, and whoever else wants to dive into the far spectrum of things ... why not ask Mary exactly what she meant when she posted

Because if you read it again in a neutral voice, you'll see that Mary never stated anything specific about any one person. And to pick up the question about time spent becoming a shihan ... just how many hours did these shihan spend in training? From a purely historical perspective, what amount of time did the shihan (all of them) spend in their training to reach that status? How many were married and what amount of time was spent on family life?

Now, toss in how many of the Japanese shihan had work responsibilities that took up (I'm fairly sure) most of their daily life, what proportion of time left went to training and family?

Let's take one famous Japanese, Takeda Sokaku. It's pretty much known that Sue raised Tokimune. Sokaku was rarely at home to do so. Good or bad? Go ahead, be the judge. I certainly won't.

So, why jump all over Mary when she never stated someone specific? I did state someone specific. You want to judge Takeda Sokaku?

How about taking a step back, rereading things without jumping to conclusions? Why not let Mary say the specifics of what she wants to say? You might be surprised at what she really meant. Or maybe not. But you'll never know by taking the route you did take.

Mark

READ THE WHOLE THREAD.

The only thing that bothers me about this whole thread is that people are passing blame onto their busy lives or their familes as a reason why they only train an hour or two a week. I am offended that anyone would present their family as a burden rather than admit that they just would rather do other things than train. A little further down the conversation switches to drive time as the reason they don't train more. When it is mentioned that there are people at Maggie's dojo that drive further than that with children and wives, it is an issue of a personal attack. This seems like a conversation out of an Anne Ryne novel how it is always anyone's fault but mine. I choose to train versus doing other things, just like everyone else.

Maggie, I and every one else on this side of the issue has said that it is OK to be a hobbyist, just be honest with yourself. I myself consider myself a hobbyist with 6 to 12 hours at the dojo a week. I understand that there are some (whom I have met before) who train 6-10 hours a day and I consider them to be serious.

I think we all can name shihans with complex personal lives. But then, we can probably name professional athletes, writers, and musicians with equally complex lives. And we can all name people in all those categories who are good parents, devoted to their spouses, and generally exceptional human beings.

Based on my own experience, though, if your marriage will fall apart because you do something you love three times a week instead of two, there are probably other issues there that have nothing to do with aikido.