Also, on that note @ fun... was anyone else a fan of Batman: The Brave and the Bold?
Here's hoping the next SW movies are at least fun if nothing else!

not to go off topic but......

I enjoyed the Nolan films but I found the campy cartoon entertaining as well. Also agreed with everybody else if you like Avengers and Star Wars take a look at Firefly, don't take my word for it.

back to Luke, here's an idea for a topic. As some of you have mentioned there was period in the 90's where optimistic heroes were replaced by anti-hero counterparts. Spider-man had the Scarlet Spider, Captain America had US Agent, and Superman had his four replacements during the Death story line. Now I believe that Luke had his own counterpart in the 90's as well as now with Starkiller. I believe KJA's intent was to developed Kyp into the better, younger, more powerful hero to replaced Luke later down the line, save that no other writer follow that up. Kyp had the background of living as a slave on Kessel, was theorized to be more powerful Luke(except he wasn't), and had more 'tude than Luke due to hanging with Exar Kun. As mention the idea never really pan out for KJA's creation, but at least the character became a main stay in the NJO. Fast forward to current times and we have Starkiller, an obvious dark analogue to Luke. Heck he's practically proto-Luke, with creating the Alliance and being the sole jedi(saved for Kota) to the Rebellion. The creator stated that Starkiller is what Luke would have become had he trained under his father.

Farscape is even more like Star Wars and also awesome sauce. John Crichton is a hero that reminds me of Luke in some respects. He is also idealistic, a fish out of water, has good people skills and is an all around swell guy (even if he becomes a bit insane later, but that only enhances his appeal).

Don't get me wrong, I liked Batman Begins and the Dark Knight, but for me they were only "nice movies", nothing to get excited about. Christian Bale was imo miscast, Michael Keaton did a much better job at delivering an actually interesting Batman (which is kind of the most important part of a Batman movie, not the bad guy).

What I also disliked was the over the top philosophical monologues as that isn't very "realistic". In real life people don't talk like that.

Dark Knight Rises was way too dark. Everything so glum. Why would I care about the characters if they all bore me? Sheesh!

Heh, if that's done well I don't mind. Matt Stover's Acts of Caine characters do it all time, but it's so damn fun to read that they can do it all they like.

I take the Luke approach when faced with something huge. Brood for a bit then find hope and go on from there

Good approach! To brood a bit, once in a while, can even be healthy!

JediBen said:

And I'd say nope, not Superman/Batman - recently re-read them and they didn't work anywhere near as well. My Superman recommendations would be:

Birthright by Mark Waid and Leinil Yu

Secret Identity by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen

Hey, now i get confused And remember, I'm not interested in these for their own sake, but for their likeness with Luke and ability to offer new perspectives on him!

JediBen said:

The attitude that sayus the only way to get ahead is to look for yourself at all costs, do nothing for no one and basically be a complete bastard! Bu hey, you'll be a success!

Ok, I get it. Thanks.

instantdeath said:

I do feel Luke and Superman are similar characters, in a lot of ways. Staunch idealists, similar backgrounds, both incredibly powerful, to the point where they're sometimes criticized as too powerful to write well, when in actuality all it requires is a little creativity. The best Superman stories, I've found, are not the ones where the writer is just throwing super powerful threats at him. It's the stories that examine who Superman is, and why he does what he does, and what makes him inspirational. That's what I like to see in a Luke story; sure, him stomping people is great, but we come for the character. A story of Luke inspiring other characters is just as good as one focusing on Luke himself.

Agreed! Storywise, though, I see a huge difference between Luke and Superman, in that Superman always was super - Luke wasn't. In fact, if we're to follow the ultimate SW-canon (was it letter G?), he's hardly super yet. He manages against Jabba's gang yes - but fails against the super villain Palpatine.

instantdeath said:

I don't really think it leans to overtly in one direction or the other. Sure, The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones are both wildly popular now, but I do think the stigma that entertainment has to be dark and solemn to have depth is quickly dying. I love stuff like that, but it can't all be that.

Agreed! So much agreed! Also that the more lighthearted is gaining terrain. Actually, I have this feeling, that if Luke's well written in the ST, he could embody the return of the hero. Not that I want the antihero gone - I just want some chance - just like you!

dewback_rancher said:

Someone else who doesn't fangasm at the mention of the Nolan films!

Well, I don't either. I was watching them with my son (still lack to see Dark Knight Rises) who's 13 next month, and we both thought them good but not great, And my son actually voiced that he couldn't quite see why Heath Ledger was supposed to be better than Mark Hamill. Well a kid that age, shouldn't be able to appreciate the subtleties of evil, of course, but I must say I agree. Evil without motivation is already i Shakespeare (Jago in Othello), and much more subtle too. No, what interests me, is why do some hand on to good. And how they do manage that!

MasterSkywalker86 said:

For Superman I would recommend the 1978 movie, there is something just charming/awesome about how Christopher Reeve portrays him, he's cheerful 90 % of the time unless Lois or people are in danger. He reminds me of Hamill in OT as he's selfless and putting others before his own welfare

But see, I don't see Luke as selfless at all! I think he's basically too willfull to be anything but selfish - thought not more nor less than any of us. And that exactly is why he's interesting - what drives him in his brave acts in ANH, f.ex? And how does he develop to the man he is in ROTJ, where he actually IS selfless at times.

Also, I think the worst thing the ST could d towards him, is to make him completely selfless!

MasterSkywalker86 said:

back to Luke, here's an idea for a topic. As some of you have mentioned there was period in the 90's where optimistic heroes were replaced by anti-hero counterparts. Spider-man had the Scarlet Spider, Captain America had US Agent, and Superman had his four replacements during the Death story line. Now I believe that Luke had his own counterpart in the 90's as well as now with Starkiller. I believe KJA's intent was to developed Kyp into the better, younger, more powerful hero to replaced Luke later down the line, save that no other writer follow that up. Kyp had the background of living as a slave on Kessel, was theorized to be more powerful Luke(except he wasn't), and had more 'tude than Luke due to hanging with Exar Kun. As mention the idea never really pan out for KJA's creation, but at least the character became a main stay in the NJO. Fast forward to current times and we have Starkiller, an obvious dark analogue to Luke. Heck he's practically proto-Luke, with creating the Alliance and being the sole jedi(saved for Kota) to the Rebellion. The creator stated that Starkiller is what Luke would have become had he trained under his father.

Veru interesting theory Yes, i think Starkiller fits well with anti-hero Luke. Also, he's got the name that Lucas initially intended for his hero. I'm glad he changed it, though! Skywalker, is so much more human and inspiring, than Starkiller!!!

dewback_rancher said:

So, does anyone have a favorite Bantam-era Luke story? [/randomLuke-relatedquestionIjustpulledoutofnowhere]

In the OT Luke desperately wants to prove himself compared to his legendary father. He wants to be as great as him and that is imo one of the most important reasons on why he acts so heroically. He has a lot of ambition to be great and a hero.

But later he learns that his own greatness isn't all that important when he saves his father.

Agreed! Storywise, though, I see a huge difference between Luke and Superman, in that Superman always was super - Luke wasn't. In fact, if we're to follow the ultimate SW-canon (was it letter G?), he's hardly super yet. He manages against Jabba's gang yes - but fails against the super villain Palpatine.

Actually, I'd say he out-gambitted Palpatine. Palpatine wasn't aware that the battle was really about Vaders loyalty. In his arrogance he thought he could ignore Vaders psychological state. Luke thought different and for his perceptiveness he was rewarded in the end.

but what's wrong with Luke in it? I've heard great things about his Han and especially Leia portrayal, but haven't really heard anything about Luke.

I don't think Luke has played much of a role in the comic yet. What I don't like from what I've heard about it is that Luke is more interested in a girl than with his responsibilities. That doesn't really seem like Luke to me.

RK_Striker_JK_5:

I love all three of them, but ANH is my favorite

I'm with you and Dew, Striker! ANH is my favorite too.

JediMatteus:

i think rotj is the best movie of the saga. Here fe finally see luke as a jedi and redeeming his father. it was awesome.

It certainly had the most mature and accomplished Luke of the three. I liked the adventure aspect of ANH and the whole newness and excitement of it. It was such an amazing journey to travel with Luke.

kataja :

I thought the whole scene a Luke- tribute! He most definitely saved her! It's true that she died, but it was so clearly what she wanted - her body had been lost a long time ago, only to be replicated by Abeloth - and her spirit was hold captive, still without ability to touch the Force. When Luke freed her, she was finally able to unite with the Force - I thougth it was wonderful!

Maybe I would have liked it better if it would have seemed like a more peaceful passing. It seemed more like a violent, painful tearing-away.

Heck, I love any era where Luke is in!

We're both definitely in agreement about that!

and then gets distracted by a girl, taking liberties to prolong an exercise in order to get more time with her.

Again, I'm surprised that he is interested in this girl so close to ANH, when he seemed so interested in Leia. In retrospect, it ended up being a good thing that he got over Leia so quickly, given that they turned out to be brother and sister, but I'm still surprised that Luke was so quick to switch his interest to someone else.

Jedi Ben:

And in quite a few ways, I do see Luke as a similar character in that he embodies that positive sense of aspiration. That you can make a better without trampling over everyone and looking out for no.1.

I agree, JB!

MasterSkywalker86:

While Jedi is my favorite, I see the OT as one whole film with 3 acts and enjoy every minute of it. Seeing Luke's progression in the hero journey was great, farmboy wanting to leave the homestead to rebel hero, to commander, to jedi apprentice, and finally a knight.

That's a great way to look at it, MS!

instantdeath:

I liked that scene, but from a directors point of view, I agree it was absolutely the right call to make leaving it out. It makes the moment where the Sail Barge music kicks in all the better, especially since we'd never seen Luke kick that much ass before.

That's a great point, ID!

dewback_rancher:

I guess my problem with being optimistic about the Sequel Trilogy is that I tried being optimistic for TCW and it bit me in the backside one too many times.

I can certainly understand that. That's what the Del Rey EU did to me as well. I was really getting pessimistic and cynical that we'd ever get a positive Luke story again. I see the sequel trilogy as an opportunity to get rid of the bad EU and keep the good EU. I see it as a new chance for a better Luke characterization; a more respected Jedi Order; and a galaxy that really WANTS the Jedi instead of one that is wary of them and hates them. Maybe I'll be disappointed yet again, but I really hope things will be different and much improved.

See, for me, The Empire Strikes Back simply does not work without Return of the Jedi coming on its heels.

I agree with that! You're right that it would have been FAR too depressing! I'm hoping that with the ST, that we'll get some kind of resolution to each film (as in ANH), even though the story will continue, rather than an "ending" like TESB, where everything was left unresolved.

Also, seeing how much everyone's excited to see me,

It IS good to have you back!

But yeah, not a huge fan of the direction SW has taken lately. I mean, what's the point of the Return of the Jedi being such a good thing if they're all horrible people?
Just... not enough light in the franchise anymore. It's hard to be optimistic when the canon is doing the equivalent of slapping you in the face repeatedly with a half-rotten trout.

Agreed! Storywise, though, I see a huge difference between Luke and Superman, in that Superman always was super - Luke wasn't. In fact, if we're to follow the ultimate SW-canon (was it letter G?), he's hardly super yet. He manages against Jabba's gang yes - but fails against the super villain Palpatine.

I think you're underestimating Luke a bit K, sure Superman started off powerful from the start but Luke started with potential to become powerful. And while he only becomes a Knight at the end of Jedi, he does some impressive feats despite being an unorthodox trained jedi, destroys the Death Star, manages to Force lift an X-wing a few feet off the ground after a week of training, and defeats his father despite minimal training and figuring things out on his own. If anything the movies highlight how powerful Luke will become in the future. Also from a traditional standpoint yeah sure he gets electrocuted by Palpatine, but he does overcome Palpatine by staying in the LS and thus redeeming his father. Luke won the battle of the soul

But see, I don't see Luke as selfless at all! I think he's basically too willfull to be anything but selfish - thought not more nor less than any of us. And that exactly is why he's interesting - what drives him in his brave acts in ANH, f.ex? And how does he develop to the man he is in ROTJ, where he actually IS selfless at times.

Have to disagree with you there K(we been disagreeing quite a bit ). You can make the argument that Luke started off in ANH with worrying about his own needs over his family.....SAVED that he stayed with Owen and Beru an extra couple of years to help them rather than join flight school. Luke was always about helping his family over what he wanted. Move to where Luke goes and rescue the Princess, he's not doing it for glory, or money(Han), he's doing it to save her life. Pan to next scene where he joins the Rebels on the attack of the Death Star, he risks his life time and again to do the right thing. Luke has always been altruistic, it's part of his character. That's where Luke, Superman, and Cap shined as heroes.

Also, I think the worst thing the ST could d towards him, is to make him completely selfless!

I really don't understand how is that a bad thing ? unless you're mixing up terms again ? selfish=focuses on self, selfless= focuses on others.

Veru interesting theory Yes, i think Starkiller fits well with anti-hero Luke. Also, he's got the name that Lucas initially intended for his hero. I'm glad he changed it, though! Skywalker, is so much more human and inspiring, than Starkiller!!!

yes Skywalker is a much better name for a hero, although it would be funny if Luke took the code name Starkiller from time to time

SOTE, is definitely my favorite solo book for Bantam and it's such a great starting point for Luke fans who already have seen the movies. We get to witness Luke's progression with the Force as he matures as a jedi and a person. Plus listening to the theme while reading the book reminds me of my younger days with the N64.

In the OT Luke desperately wants to prove himself compared to his legendary father. He wants to be as great as him and that is imo one of the most important reasons on why he acts so heroically. He has a lot of ambition to be great and a hero.

But later he learns that his own greatness isn't all that important when he saves his father.

That's how I see it too. He has personal ambitions - and that's natural, as he's been struggling to survive in an environment where he's always been a bit out of place. The only one who seems to really understands him on Tatooine is Biggs - and his aunt, probably - but that's been far from enough when so many have been belittling him or trying to mold him into something he's not! But as he finds himself and his call, he's able to grow beyond that and put his own needs aside.

Then, again, one could say that his saving his father is based on his need to get teh fathare he wants him to be. He'd just rtaher give up his life to get his dream, than the otherv way round

Darth_Pevra said:

Actually, I'd say he out-gambitted Palpatine. Palpatine wasn't aware that the battle was really about Vaders loyalty. In his arrogance he thought he could ignore Vaders psychological state. Luke thought different and for his perceptiveness he was rewarded in the end.

This is true. And it shows Luke is emotionally very intelligent. Also, he was able to see beyond the surface when it came to Han.

ChildofWinds said:

I don't think Luke has played much of a role in the comic yet. What I don't like from what I've heard about it is that Luke is more interested in a girl than with his responsibilities. That doesn't really seem like Luke to me.

See, I don't think this is fair to the comic. This is a much more subtle story that that, I think. First of all we need to see where it goes. I've read the teasers of episodes #5-7 and it's obvious that Luke's an important part of the story. And I don't see it like he's not interested in his responsabilites - more that he has to learn how to fit into a military organization - and chores that work in a different way than cleaning stationary dust vaporators at the hours his uncle's ordered. Luke's used ro bending rules - as long as he gets the job done - but that doesn't work in the Alliance. On the other hand, we know that this his ability will eventually save the Alliance and the Galaxy. I really see it as an interesting story abiut how he's adapting.

ChildofWinds said:

]Again, I'm surprised that he is interested in this girl so close to ANH, when he seemed so interested in Leia. In retrospect, it ended up being a good thing that he got over Leia so quickly, given that they turned out to be brother and sister, but I'm still surprised that Luke was so quick to switch his interest to someone else

This surprised me too initially - but as you argue yourself, it's a pretty good addition, latter knwledge taken into concern. Also, I've never bought that Luke was so pristine like the Marvel comics have chosen to show him, basically sighing over Leia for there years. And it doesn't fit at all whn he's not batting an eye when he realizes she's his sister. It might be a slight ret-con - but IMO it fits better with the latter EU - and with Mark Hamill's portrayal of Luke in ANH. Luke there, is basically in love wth Leia before he knows who she is - and could easily be the same in any pretty girl. In love - and over it very quickly, emotionally more desiring the surge from it than he's ready to commit himself. Luke's a commiting person, definitely - but he's not emotionally ready yet. I could so easliy see him like a guy who'd end up in a marriage as sixteen with a girl he had no deeper connection with, just because he happened to make her pregnant. And of course he'd take the responsability. Luckily, that didn't happen. And as time goes on, Luke finds out that his bond between him and Leia continues, whihc will probably make him think he's in love wih her, several times yet, before he learns the truth.

I think you're underestimating Luke a bit K, sure Superman started off powerful from the start but Luke started with potential to become powerful. And while he only becomes a Knight at the end of Jedi, he does some impressive feats despite being an unorthodox trained jedi, destroys the Death Star, manages to Force lift an X-wing a few feet off the ground after a week of training, and defeats his father despite minimal training and figuring things out on his own. If anything the movies highlight how powerful Luke will become in the future. Also from a traditional standpoint yeah sure he gets electrocuted by Palpatine, but he does overcome Palpatine by staying in the LS and thus redeeming his father. Luke won the battle of the

Yes, I know that. And I guess part of my point comes from the fact that I don't focus so much on powers as such, but more to what the powersdoes to someone. And there I think Luke's more interesting because he goes through a metamorphosis in terms of who he is - three times. First from Wormie on Tatooine to Hero of the Rebellion. Then from unknown father to hero father and from there even to father WTF? And finally from rebellions pilot to Jedi.

Quite another thing is then, that when I speak to people I know, there is quite a number who alwasy will see Luke as whiny - and never got impressed by what he accomplished.

MasterSkywalker86 said:

Have to disagree with you there K(we been disagreeing quite a bit ). You can make the argument that Luke started off in ANH with worrying about his own needs over his family.....SAVED that he stayed with Owen and Beru an extra couple of years to help them rather than join flight school. Luke was always about helping his family over what he wanted. Move to where Luke goes and rescue the Princess, he's not doing it for glory, or money(Han), he's doing it to save her life. Pan to next scene where he joins the Rebels on the attack of the Death Star, he risks his life time and again to do the right thing. Luke has always been altruistic, it's part of his character. That's where Luke, Superman, and Cap shined as heroes.

you're mixing up terms again ? selfish=focuses on self, selfless= focuses on others.

LOL I guess I'm mixinga bit yeah. I do know selfless is supposed to be a positive word - still I find it hard to eat, as the word sounds like there wasn't any self left. And that would be terrible IMO - particularly when comes to Luke. In that I see Superman as having a pretty small ego - while Luke basically has a large ego - while he just as driven by altruistic ideals and has a compassionate soul. And as a consequence, I think Luke's altruism is in a way even greater, as he's really had to fight to give up his hungry ego. See my point, Master - even if I'm terrible at English?

MasterSkywalker86 said:

it would be funny if Luke took the code name Starkiller from time to time

LOL it would yes!

JediBen said:

Hmm, Luke more interested in a girl than responsibilities?

Hmm, and he's from a blasted rock called Tattooine with few females present?

Yes, I know that. And I guess part of my point comes from the fact that I don't focus so much on powers as such, but more to what the powersdoes to someone.

That's where I come in Power my three favorite fictional heroes are the type of characters who don't take their power/strength for granted and didn't allow their abilities to change their character So there is a good bit of humility on their part.

And there I think Luke's more interesting because he goes through a metamorphosis in terms of who he is - three times. First from Wormie on Tatooine to Hero of the Rebellion. Then from unknown father to hero father and from there even to father WTF? And finally from rebellions pilot to Jedi.

I'll give you that, it's definitely interesting to see the underdog grow powerful. I think Superman also has an interesting tale as well, though if you scratch the surface.

Quite another thing is then, that when I speak to people I know, there is quite a number who alwasy will see Luke as whiny - and never got impressed by what he accomplished.

hah....then they forget the scene where Luke simply walks into Jabba's Palace with the Force at his command and disables two Gammerroans unconscious, Bib becomes his mind zombie, Force pulls a gun on Jabba and kills the Rancor with wit and a cleverly aimed Force throw. And who knows how Luke bypass the robotic gatekeeper. As Luke would say"It's your choice but I warn you, don't underestimate my power."

and if that's not enough

course I could put the scene when Luke overpowered his father in RotJ but that's overkill for my point.

LOL I guess I'm mixinga bit yeah. I do know selfless is supposed to be a positive word - still I find it hard to eat, as the word sounds like there wasn't any self left. And that would be terrible IMO - particularly when comes to Luke. In that I see Superman as having a pretty small ego - while Luke basically has a large ego - while he just as driven by altruistic ideals and has a compassionate soul. And as a consequence, I think Luke's altruism is in a way even greater, as he's really had to fight to give up his hungry ego. See my point, Master - even if I'm terrible at English?

Luke, Clark, and the Captain still have their own wants/needs despite being selfless, they're human(and Kryptonian....which is really human when you come down to it...despite getting powers due to the sun) after all. I think they inspire us at what we can do, despite not having super powers, the super soldier serum, or the Force. We still can help people with what we can do. About ego, I can see that, and I would argue that Luke had to overcome his ego issues while Clark didn't have that issue due to his abilities. Luke wanted to prove himself capable.