Words, terrible words, from my brain…

Any Subject is Fodder for Stories. No Censorship.

Tired of people linking to this article (or more specifically this article’s title) without paying attention to the content. IDoR a link to the original. To remove any ambiguity whatsoever, the point of the article was simply this: No topic should be off limits. Nothing should be exempt from being story fodder. Whether rape, murder, torture, mutilation, cannibalism, racism or any other nasty thing anyone can think of. Artists must be free to explore without being censored, controlled or limited. The mere existence of something nasty in a story, game or piece of art is not sufficient reason for the art – or the artist – to be pilloried. Nor should we only allow people we consider (subjectively) skilled or politically acceptable to tackle difficult subjects.TL;DR – Censorship is bad, offence, upset or discomfort isn’t a good enough reason to prevent something being made. If you still object to that, stated as plainly and simply as that, we’re going to have a problem.

163 Responses

I have to say that as a writer I understand your point… sort of. I mean it is important as artists in any fashion to take a hard look at violence and culture if only to insure that such things are not forgotten and never made common place. Turning a blind eye, erasing something from literature does not make it go away, in fact, as writers we not only have the power to expose the depths and the highs that a person can sink to, but we also have the responsibility. Stories have always been the way we as people share knowledge and understanding of the world around us, it’s how we learn about the consequences of our actions and how we explore those consequences in depth.

The problem with your argument however is the support of the redundancy that I am finding in stories mainly involving rape. Many of them in pop-culture are not just redundant in their execution, but they seem to propagate the same idea which is victim blaming, female weakness, and often seem to completely overlook the responsibility of the male in many cases.

Take the show “Grim” for instance. It’s a semi-popular sci-fi show here in Canada and I think perhaps the US as well. In season one there is an episode with a woman in an art gallery who somehow attracts the attention of an art dealer. She is beautiful, she is mysterious and he of course is intrigued enough to follow her out of the bar after she rejected his advances and sweet talk her into going home with him. In this story when he subsequently attempts to rape her and she turned into a spider beast and pumps a stream of acid into his mouth she goes from being the victim to the villian ad the story goes on to talk about her relationship with other men..

That story in particular was rather frustrating to me. There are undertones of guilt for what she did, letting him take her home, defending herself when she became aggressive, killing him in an act of self defense. All of those things were seen as horrific and negative, but what was never addressed was the male’s responsibility when it came to what he was about to do. His guilt was never discussed, never touched on and it left me feeling like the story was unfinished like the writers didn’t fully appreciate or understand the subject matter. In fact I found it pretty offensive that that entire plot line just seemed to be floated by the wayside as if what the male did was of no real consequence.

That is just one example of many when it comes to how rape is depicted in pop culture these days and I think that is what so many people find so frustrating. When so many tv shows and movies and video games depict violence against women without consequence, it’s not really doing justice to the story. Instead it is taking something that is inherently wrong and giving it validation and justification and if stories at their core are meant examine things, to help people understand the world around them, to explore the action and consequence then this sort of story is changing the consequence of a violent and horrific act. Making it less, going against the reality of the victim in such a way that it is actually harmful to them. It can also be argued that if so many popular rape plot lines end in the shaming of women that a great number of people in our society already see it that way and are attempting to propagate it to others until it is a common belief.

So I guess therein lies the difference. Writing can be an art form when it is true to itself, but it can also be propaganda if it is done in the wrong way. The trick as an artist in any fashion is trying navigate the fine line between exploring your beliefs and ideals and thoughts and experiences in a piece of work, or forcing them on others. I believe when people talk about rape culture, and talk about these acts of violence against women and a lack of consequence in sooo many of our most popular stories these days, they are mainly talking about it as being used as propaganda to convince others that a very dangerous, hurtful and despicable act should be viewed in a way that will only create more violence and pain in society as a whole.

I think they are afraid that the idea of victim blaming is becoming to commonplace and is being reflected very heavily in the stories our current culture is producing, and that the effect of such things will have dire consequences to our society as a whole. Ironically the only way to combat these ideals or this propaganda is to tell a similar story from a different angle and make sure that the raw emotion, the consequence, the pain, the blame, and the responsibility is explored.

I’m afraid much of this, while well thought out, is besides the point for me. I do not want to restrict examination of topics on basis of execution or anything else. It all ends up being arbitrary. We have the freedom to examine these things in fiction, or we do not.

Not so sure about this one. I don’t think there is an objective scale for that kind of measurement. With murder you don’t have to deal with the emotional trauma for the victim following the event. The victim is dead, game over (at least for atheist types). With rape victims it’s different.

Next thing why being cautious with rape in your game is good idea as opposed to murder: you rarely have murder victims among your player base. In a small longterm group you know well that’s fine, in other settings not so much.

I agree that rape spurs up a lot of emotions and for an author that’s a great thing, as you explained. You just have to make sure you have a way to handle these emotions, in game and out.

You can’t recover from murder. I refer you back to the comment which you’re replying to. Death is the end. Nobody should have to have anything bad happen to them – but it does, and you can live on and still have a good, productive life and get over it.

You get off on watching rape, we get it. You wrote a blog supporting your dirty disgusting violent perversion.
You want to watch more things where, I presume just women, are raped.
You are sick.
Really sick.
Why doesn’t your list off what’s next after rape for a character include, calling the police, having to go through examination and swab taking, being quizzed for hours by police who, being male, think you’re either making it up or it was your own fault for being drunk/wearing a skirt/walking un chaperoned round your own town/being female. It doesn’t mention the anti-biotics, the aids test or the morning after pill? It doesn’t mention the most obvious route of that situation; abortion.
But you don’t want to see that bit, you just want to get your jollies to a women being violently assaulted, you are pathetic.
Rape isn’t for entertainment, you classless worm. You have no taste, no class, no respect for women. I assume you’re american.

I wrote a blog – that apparently you didn’t actually comprehend – talking about the baseless shaming of other people’s sexuality, including transgressive interests – and how this directly compared with what’s bemoaned going in the other direction. Apparently you didn’t quite take it in. I also made a point of sharply delineating the difference between reality and fantasy. Something you appear to have trouble with.

Am I sick? I’m the one who _can_ tell the difference between the imaginary and the real. I’m _not_ the one firing groundless, shaming, hateful broadsides to someone I’ve never even met. I’m also _not_ the one trying to quash self-expression simply because I don’t agree with it. You’ll excuse me but to me that seems far more sick than your accusations.

Your commentary, in between the vitriol, touches on some more issues surrounding the act which are also useful plot and story foils but rather specific to a modern cultural context whereas the blog, necessarily, speaks more generally. Thank you for adding further weight to my point.

Taste is subjective, I’d be happy to be sans class, it’s a horrible cultural artefact. In the other sense I’m happy to have enough class to be honest, thoughtful and rational even when I know I’m going to get reactions like yours. I have plenty of respect for women, actual, genuine, real women – including those with transgressive tastes and those able to tell fiction from non-fiction. I don’t have respect for inquisitorial witch hunts.

I’m British. In my experience it tends to be Americans who have thoughtless, knee-jerk reactions to difficult topics. Such as you have had here.

Now, if you want a calmer more reasoned discussion you’re welcome to have one in the comments here. If you continue to be baselessly abusive your comments will be deleted.

Mooncup, you are stupid beyond words. First, the article says nothing about getting off on … well, anything. It never addresses that. And the whole point about using rape in a story is to look at the aftermath as the article clearly states. No, it doesn’t include a laundry list of everything horrible about rape, because it wasn’t an exploration of how rape affects people. It was about how rape can be used in a story.

Lastly, you assume the author is American because he has no taste, class, or respect for women? That’s the pot calling the kettle crass. That probably went over your head, so let me explain: You are a dumbass.

What is evident from this nasty little piece is that you are stimulated by violence against women. That you want to see, hear, read about women being hurt.
It is not about rape, you make no mention of the rape of men, nor children, just women.
You just like it when a ‘rape plot’ works out your specific way, you’re sick. You should seek help.
I think you need to have a look at yourself in the mirror. You’re trying to justify your nasty perversion, Stieg Larrson a couple of books about people with your mindset, maybe you’ve heard of them. In their native Swedish they are called ‘Men Who Hate Women’. You clearly hate women to want to see rape at every juncture for your entertainment. How long before the fiction, film and game isn’t enough for you? Let me know so I can ring the police.

As it happens I do find rough sex etc stimulating but only as fiction. This blog isn’t about that so much though (you want the one about male slut-shaming over on athefist). Rather, this one is about the ridiculous conceit that some topics should be off limits and the inability of people like yourself to tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

I do not hate women. I am capable of telling the difference between reality and fantasy. The evidence suggests, contrary to what you seem to contend, that greater access to pornographic material lessens rape, rather than extending it. The idea that the consumption of transgressive fiction turns one into a rapist turns out to be just as ludicrous as the idea that GTA turns you into a gun-wielding robber or that D&D makes you a Satanist.

If you care to have a more reasoned, civil, discussion rather than just using this as a springboard to show what a ‘good citizen’ you are (friend Computer) then you’re welcome too but further uninformed abuse and nonsense will simply be deleted.

Good lord. You write something reasoned and crazy people jump to wild conclusions? This rape culture business is worrying. I’m not sure everyone can separate reality and fantasy. Intelligent people can, but the world is full of idiots. But still, not ever depicting rape or violence against women is like trying to deny that it exists. We need to engage in these conversations, get the subject out into the open.Because it _is_ complex and it might be confusing. I think you’ve done a good thing talking about it here, But the accusations that you ‘get off on rape’ are flaming. Nothing in this post can be construed to mean that.

To be fair I do find rough sex, BDSM and other sexual material that some people find troublesome arousing. However I do not find the real thing, the real act to be acceptable or arousing. As you say, it worries me that people can’t seem to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. It seems to be the kind of moral crusaders posting here without reading, rather than the consumers of the material though.

I didn’t even touch upon how weird it was to simply avoid the topic altogether and I’m glad you brought it up.

what’s really funny is I find the actual act quite titillating as well. I was called that so much during my youth since the age of 11 that I decided to try on the hat, and found it a pleasing fit before I graduated high school. So thanks for promoting me, feminist rape culture! And yet, and yet… so much of the media people who hate ‘rape’ consume and write godawful things overflowing with SOOOOOO much overly descriptive rape it churns even my stomach. Methinks they doth protest a bit too much, and have plentiful amounts of ‘bodice rippers’ in their own literary collection. They are like the preacher that decries gay men as the devil, yet lie in the beds of other men, and it pains them to realise this attraction to the act exists, so they must ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK http://www.fimfiction.net/story/170125/stockholm
One good example of this is Jerry Peet who was a prominent part of Down With Molestia, who, at the same time as railing against a saucy burlesque webcomic for possibly traumatising fans of the my little pony show, would write fics (literally novels) involving paedophilic rape, incest, and torture.

erm, most of the “Rape” fantasies women have are not actually about rape, much like the desire for grilled cheese is not the desire for a crapload of empty calories and fat.
There are a lot of more important and more educated people who published more fancy stuff regarding the topic than me, so enough of that.
There has been quite a lot thrown together, and that all being said, just because Zeus – or another non biblical deity – did it, did not mean that it was automatically okay. The Abrahamic mindset traditionally has problems accepting that these deities did not claim to be morally superior – they were amoral, occasionally downright immoral, and humans used to be free to have their own opinion about that.

There is a hypocrisy in accepting that from women but not accepting it from men. As we can see in some of the other comments here. It’s a further emphasis on the difference between reality and fantasy I talked about. There’s similar confusion, that you touch on here, that including something, writing about it, talking about it is somehow approving of it.

This kind of hysterical reaction to a blog about the power of rape *as a plot device* takes me right back to the 80’s and the PMRC. The ironic thing is, I’d be willing to lay a reasonable sum of money that all of those accusing you of being on the cusp of committing rape simply for mentioning it in the first place are all achingly progressive types that would be horrified at the thought of, say, banning all discourse on homosexuality in some Deep South state because it violates a local taboo or three. Or, indeed, at the very thought of having anything *they* like censored or banned.

Reading this through reasonable, and unemotional eyes, I understand that society is one fucked up place to be. If a person cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy then that person has an issue and not the author of this blog post.

Individuals have so called deviant sexual fantasies, and in my opinion that is where these behaviors should stay. Fantasies are fantasies for a reason. A reasonable person will not act upon their fantasies. Having a rape fantasy does not make one a rapist. I have rape fantasies, and I am a woman. How does that work? I think the intelligent people can figure that one out. This does not mean that I want to rape my boyfriend.

I also find rough sex, BDSM, and other “nasty” sexual behavior to also be a turn on. That is how I am. Those who wish to have the knee jerk reactions are a bunch a fucking prudes, or don’t understand that a fantasy is a fantasy, and reality is where I exist.

Well, a bit late to the party as it were but I think it is time to post my thoughts. While yes it was a fairly crass and blatent link but having read your blog I have to say Grim I can see what you are trying to get across. While neither of us support actual rape I can see how it might be a useful plot device. And having actually read the WHOLE post I see where you are asking very good questions that not only highlight the subjects use as a plot but questions which should be examined in real life as well. As to the subject itself, I am not so into reading about it myself though books I have read and enjoyed have occasionally used it it is not really my thing. I do think it is important to keep it squarely in the public conscious rather than try to pretend it doesn’t happen, which appears to be what some people are trying to do. One problem is that although rape is normally something where women are the victims that is not always the case. A lot of these moral crusaders seem to ignore the fact that there have been cases of male rape and child rape, and in fact some have been commited by women. Admittedly that number is an incredibly small number but it does happen. It must be said for the sake of honesty that I have known Grim for many years, though we have never been best buds, I have a great deal of respect for him as he is as open minded an individual as you might find and has never treated anyone with anything less than decency.

How often are men raped in cinema, comics, fantasy art, role-playing games and computer games? My sense is that it is rarely shown in most of these media, at least not nearly as often as the rape of women. I find it frustrating that it seems so much more acceptable to portray the extreme victimization and humiliation of women than of men in these contexts. Why does it appear to be so much more acceptable to portray the rape of women than that of men?

It does happen. Deliverance anyone? It is rarer but in part this is as much to do with prejudice against men as women, men being seen as a credible aggressor and men generally are more physically powerful. Rape by paedophiles has, oddly, become more common in media perhaps because of the status of paedophiles as an irredeemable figure of hate in the public eye.

I am certainly aware it happens–when I say “rarer” I do not mean “never”–but as you said, it *is* rarer, and I think by quite a bit. With men as the more physically powerful and thus more credible aggressors in a real-world scenario, we still don’t see much male-against-male rape. It seems the issue is with male writers and artists not wanting male heroes to be shown being victimized in that way. Women’s frustration comes, I think, largely from the appearance that it seems to be far more acceptable to portray women being victimized in a particularly humiliating way than it is to portray men that way. If women were frequently showing men being raped in various media, either by women or other men, might not men consuming these media start to take issue with that, and legitimately so? Mind you, I don’t think all portrayals of rape should be removed from media, but I’d rather it not be nearly so common for female characters to undergo, and frankly I’d rather have more equity in how often women and men are shown as this sort of victim or survivor.

It appears male-on-male rape is rarer than male-on-female rape, or indeed female-on-male rape. So why would it be as common in fiction in any case? Even without invoking ‘it makes men squeamish’? When it does turn up in a male on male context it’s usually some joke about prison sex. Some feminists would have you believe that up to 25% of all women are raped. Yes the study they quote is dodgy as fuck but still, if it’s that common we’d expect it to come up more commonly.

If it were acceptable it wouldn’t be a hot button issue, it wouldn’t have the capacity to shock, engage or fire up concern trolls in the way it does.

Equal time isn’t always justified. The concept of ‘fair and balanced’ can only really be applied to opinion. Not fact. Giving equal time to opposing viewpoints in a factual arena gives advantage to whackos like creationists. ‘Teach the controversy’ – there is no controversy.

As to a certain degree we are talking about the new Lara Croft here…
I’m more concerned in that game that a strong (if overly ample) woman is reduced to a panting schoolgirl. In the trailer, the scene where a guy tries to rape her is the only time she shows real strength (by giving him a kicking while handcuffed before he gets further than stroking her bum).

I’d be interested to see how the debate raged if it was a male character getting raped. I suspect the outcry would mainly consist of ‘dear god, I don’t want to see that in a computer game, I play that stuff for fun’ which is what a lot of women are saying about it appearing in Tomb Raider. Its not so much about sexism or the use of the subject, but that it just isn’t something women want to see in games they are playing as it makes the game a lot less enjoyable (and potentially traumatic). Men would say the same if it was a male character getting raped. At a time when we should be encouraging women to play games, something that puts them off playing it is a bad step.

She doesn’t get raped though and it’s not as though male characters aren’t seduced or get unwelcome or weird sexual attention in games, films, comics etc. A flipside to this is that it’s horribly patronising and patriarchal to assume that the little woman needs protecting from nasty topics.

I’m a writer. I sometimes write fiction with rape in it. I sometimes read fiction with rape in it. I don’t the people you’re arguing against here have a problem with Ovid. The problem is with lazy writers who don’t give sexual violence the energy it deserves in a plot. They’re easy to spot, because they’re the same people who don’t give eating toast, or getting the bus the energy they deserve in their narratives, either.

Using rape as a plot device, to create sympathy for a character, for example, or to open up places for the story to go, is lazy. If you don’t care about your character, make a better one, if you do, tell us why, instead of using a short cut. If your story doesn’t have interesting places to go, then I’m sorry, but you need a better story.

One story rarely changes the world, but when you’re about to use rape in one of these ways, not only are you doing your own writing an injustice, because you know you can aspire to something better than that, you’re participating in a nasty culture. What does it say when women are shown almost always as victims, rarely as agents? What does it say when female characters are repeatedly defined by gender (here the ability to be raped), rather than individual qualities? Is this what you want the message of your writing to be?

When you use rape as a convenient device in your writing, is it worth the price for your readers? A significant proportion of them have probably faced sexual violence themselves. Seeing their experience drawn for the world to understand may be worth going through the trauma of the triggers it presses. Seeing their experience inadequately represented by a writer trying to shock or spice up a story cannot possibly justify the pain. Why put them through it?

Finally, I would advise against putting rape in your erotica. It’s the one genre where violence and nonconsent are still taboo. Or write some, send it to a publisher, and watch their response.

As a writer, I want my work to be the very best it can be. If I used rape as a device in any of the ways you suggest, I would be falling far short of that. Do better. If you can’t do better, do something else; plant a rose garden.

There’s the idea that it automatically means the writing is lazy, which I can’t agree with.

I don’t think you are participating in a nasty culture either. Again the sharp delineation between reality and fantasy.

It’s a negative poke at men to always make them the antagonists in these situations as much as it is to make women the perpetual victims. Neither case is entirely accurate and there are other representations in media but people seem to choose to ignore them.

A significant proportion are also not disturbed and are capable of understanding this reality/fantasy distinction. Not to mention that it can be seen as horribly patronising to ‘protect the poor little woman’ from anything that might upset her.

As to erotica as touched upon it, or close to it, is actually a quite popular arena for transgressive erotica and I see no reason to stand off it despite people’s prejudice. Indeed this has fairly recently been the topic of campaigning by the bannedwriters group.

To start with, a couple of facts that I think I could be important: I am a man and I am gay.

I have been raped. Twice. Yes, men can be raped.

The first time I was 14 and it was by the priest I was in love with. He chose to ignore the fact that I was terrified when he was sticking his tongue in my ear and masturbating both of us at the same time, and partly because of fear and partly because of love (misplaced as it was) couldn’t utter the necessary words to stop it. Not that I believe would have done much good anyway. The second time was by a “friend” of mine I was exploring gay sex with. He chose to ignore me when I said “Stop it’s hurting too much” and then thought that pinning me down so I couldn’t get away while he finished what he was doing.

Both times have been horrendous situations that have left me scarred. Although I have managed to get over it as much as I can, there are traits of my personality that will forever be changed and situations that I will never feel comfortable in because of those experiences. And have left me angry. But the anger I can control a lot more easily than the memories, so at least that I have some sort of grip on.

And now I am also going to defend rape as a literary resource. In fact, I am going to go further. I want rape to be talked about, written about and brought to games and video games. And I do want all this because I would LOVE if no one had to go through anything near the experiences I have gone through. But that is not going to happen if we just keep hush-hush about it, if we don’t write about it, if we don’t bring people near it so they can understand the consequences of rape.

I don’t want to see rape as a cheap plot device, though. I don’t want rape to be the reason why people become “strong”. Rape doesn’t make you strong. It changes you forever and, if you’re incredibly lucky like I am, you learn to live with it and minimise the impact as much as possible. You never, ever, get rid of it. Ever.

What surprises me more than anything is people’s reactions to the word rape. As soon as someone uses it, he/she becomes demonised and accused of being sick and threatened with calling the police. And those reactions come mostly from people who haven’t even experienced anything near rape. And I sincerely hope they don’t.

So tell me everyone, is the use of rape really a bad thing, or are the reasons why use rape what really fails and trivialises it?

There’s some master-grade trolling going on in this thread. My particular favourite is the one that claims that, because Grim argues that rape is a subject that is sometimes necessary or appropriate to tackle in fiction, he must hate women. Because it says so in Stieg Larsson’s work of fiction. In which numerous women get repeatedly raped and abused. Irony rating: goes to eleven.

Frankly, I find Larsson’s book to be the offensive thing here, and it’s really quite creepy. I mean, almost every man in it is evil — either a rapist, child abuser, wife-beater, serial killer, nazi, crime lord, corrupt government official covering up for one of the above, or some or all of the above combined — except for Blomkvist (an author, journalist and publisher of a left-wing political magazine), who in no way resembles Larsson himself (an author, journalist and publisher of a left-wing political magazine). “It’s scary out there — all those other guys want to rape, beat or kill you. Not like loveable Stieg, uh, I mean, Mikael. Best stick close to me, ladies!” Of course, every strong woman in the book wants to have sex with Blomkvist. Creepy much? Uh huh.

Well I would reply, but the inclusion of trigger warnings is a huge red flag that: “This person is an arsehole” so I won’t bother. You wouldn’t listen anyway.

I will just point out that murder, killing, is very much more normalised and trivialised and yet has had zero effect on our social/legal sanction thereof, which in and of itself kind of demolishes the rape culture argument.

First i’d like to say that personally I don’t think you should delete the posts that prove your point by not getting in your face and not talking about the subject

Secondly. It does occur that since Rape, true rape is more about domineering and power than sex that, any situation where someone uses their position to get their sexual way with someone is rape pure and simple.

Thirdly. It also seems to be different levels of taboo about subjects like this depending on genders involved like girl rapes man or girl seems to be not as bad as girl gets raped by man

Same syndrome, different context: A number of feminist friends of mine say things along the lines of ‘joke about anything else, but not rape, or i’ll never talk to you again’. Because rape is in such a different class to beatings, emotional abuse, and all the other shit people hand out? Because it is the one thing in the entirety of human culture that can only be read one way and in one context?

In an odd way this godwinisng of rape reminds me of the sanctification of virginity they gave me as a little girl. It’s all the same thing – your lady sex parts are special and delicate and what happens to them is crucial to your identity and self respect, and if you think any differently you are not a woman. Not one worth knowing, anyway.

You have the right to be safe and free and choose your own actions. but you also have a right to feel the way you want. Many people are horrifically traumatised by rape – many people get on with their lives afterwards. Who are you to tell people how they ought to feel?

Fiction is a testing ground for thoughts and experiences and for seeing something from another viewpoint. Banning a facet of the human condition from it only removes it from that scrutiny. And if you think it’s bad to be violated, think how much worse it is to be violated, ashamed, have no role models for living through it and be silenced From talking about it – and then have someone say they’re doing it for your own good.

I can’t speak to your friends’ reasoning, but I’ll tell you that only a few trusted people get to joke about rape to / around me. When guys I don’t know well joke to me about rape, it makes me wonder whether they secretly think it would be okay to rape me or someone I know – and if I’m wondering that, I’m sure as hell not sticking around to find out.

I mean, look. If I don’t know you well and you make a rape joke to me, then you are the kind of person who thinks it’s appropriate to joke about rape with someone whose attitudes on the topic they don’t know. So at bare minimum you are a socially insensitive jerk and have successfully demonstrated that you are probably not worth my time.

Ah, lovely. What a subtle way to equate expecting your conversational partners to care about your happiness and enjoyment with being touchy and humorless.

I imagine you’re now going to lump me with the censorious bullies, which is sad. I’m advocating for very simple things like “Be a good writer if you want to tackle rape, because doing it badly hurts the world” and “Don’t be a jerk to people you’d like to establish a relationship with” and “If you seem to treat rape lightly with your words, it’s hard for acquaintances to tell whether you also treat it lightly in your actions.”

(Though you’re right – in theory a woman could joke about rape in a way that made me wonder whether she would rape me. I said guys because that’s who it always is in practice.)

J., I couldn’t agree with you more. One of the surest measures of compatability is a shared sense of humor, and in few things do people reveal themselves more honestly than in what they find amusing.

I don’t assume that someone who jokes about rape is a potential rapist, any more than I assume that someone who uses racial slurs would leap at a chance to participate in a lynching. But someone who would tell rape jokes to a woman he does not know is, at minimum, an insensitive boor. More fundamentally, I can say with a high level of certainty that someone who finds rape amusing is not someone I want to know. I say this from half a century of observation, of meeting many people and contemplating what makes human interactions work or fail. It IS judgmental, in that it’s making a judgment call as to whether or not a person is someone whose aquaintance I’d like to pursue. But it is NOT the same thing as an inability to tell fantasy from reality.

Or perhaps it is, though in a rather different sense that has been discussed here. How many times have you heard someone say something insulting or insensitive, and when called on it, claim that he was “just joking?” For example, I have a brother-in-law who has hinted several times over the years that I might have “snuck meat” into the vegetarian meals I prepared for him and his family. Now, I cannot BEGIN to fathom what I might have done that would make him think me capable of such an egregious breach of hospitality, or think I’m the sort of person who would deliberately, secretly cause someone to violation his or her religious views. (His wife is vegetarian for religious reasons.) Nor can I imagine how anyone could possibly consider a passive-aggressive insult of this nature “funny.” But when called on it, he claimed he was “just joking.” And I got the impression that he believed this. People who can excuse any sort of behavior in themselves as “just a joke” and accuse anyone who doesn’t play along as “judgmental and lacking a sense of humor” are willfully replacing reality with a self-serving fantasy.

Rape isn’t funny. People who think it is, or PRETEND that they think it is and insist that everyone play along with this appalling notion, are not people I care to know.

That’s where we part ways, grimachu. Deft word play or clever use of surprise is the essense of humor, but topic also matters.

In fact, an underlying premise of your post, and many of the comments, is the importance of how a topic is handled. You can argue that rape can be used as a plot element without being trivial or lazy or salacious, OR you can argue that rape is an appropriate topic for a joke. Doing both undercuts either position.

Elaine – yes to everything you’ve said. Especially the part about the “OH JUST JOKING” thing.

I do want to say something about the “rape jokes -> potential rapist” thing. Of course I can tell fantasy from reality! But people also use humor in ways that reveals their underlying attitudes. If you don’t use the word “rape,” close to 20% of American men think it’s just fine to have sex with a woman without her consent. (When you use the word “rape” it goes down to about 6%. Which is still way too high!) I want to know if someone shares those values before I am in a situation where they might choose to violate me. Jokes are incredibly revealing of what a person’s underlying attitudes and values are – often in ways a person wouldn’t reveal in more serious conversation.

As a psychology researcher, I’m also well aware that fantasy and reality are not as separate as we’d like to think. Our conscious brains may know the difference, but subconsciously we are actually really good at blurring the boundary between the two. That’s why I think how we represent the world through fiction matters – because fiction matters to us precisely because our brains do such a good job translating the fiction into something that feels real. That may be a longer conversation though, and while I’d be happy to have it with you, I’m pretty sure I don’t want James to be a part of it.

I disagree. I think that’s an excuse for prejudice against men. We can allow a woman her transgressive fantasies without thinking she actually wants to be raped but we won’t extend the same courtesy the other way? Rather sexist.

Definitions of rape vary wildly and that’s part of the reason you get this wild variation. Joe Public is going to have a very different opinion on what constitutes rape to Jane Women’s Studies.

You can find a transgressive joke or piece of fiction amusing, arousing or entertaining without it meaning a damn thing about who you are and what you will do. From the sounds of it you ARE one of those people who thinks computer games make people violent or D&D made people Satanists. That or you’re engaging in special pleading in one particular sphere.

Actually, I’m one of those people who’s spent the better part of a decade as a psychology researcher, focusing on the complex ways in which people react to different kinds of media. Your reduction of a huge field of scholarship to stupid taglines can fuck right off, thanks.

You’ll also notice I didn’t even mention people’s fantasies. I talked about what people consider morally acceptable in practice. Yes, thanks, everyone reading your blog knows you have rape fantasies, and that you are very worried that people will judge you personally for it. Believe me, my impression of you is increasingly negative – but it has nothing to do with what you fantasize about.

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you’re unable to allow for complexity or nuance in the relationship between reality and fiction. Your original post rather lacked either of those qualities. Nor am I shocked that you cling to a notion of “quality is entirely subjective,” as by any objective standard you produce remarkably shoddy work. I should have judged you sooner, based on the evidence you’ve provided. Oh well. I’m done wasting my time.

OR, possibly, you’ve spent the better part of a decade confirming your own prejudices. That’s one of the perils of the soft sciences isn’t it? While we’re making unconfirmable claims on the internet…

I’m Batman.

You said you weren’t talking about fantasies but then did proceed to do just that in talking about ‘leakage’ from jokes etc. Making it, really, a slightly more articulate way of saying “I’m not a racist, but…”

Then you descend into ad hominem, rather than discussing the point. Evasion is a little too common in this discussion.

You make me think of the ‘death of the author’ anecdote of Asimov’s:

“He once sat in (in the back of a large lecture hall, so semi-anonymously) on a class where the topic of discussion was one of his own works. Afterward, he went up and introduced himself to the teacher, saying that he had found the teacher’s interpretation of the story interesting, though it really wasn’t what he had meant at all. The teacher’s response was ‘Just because you wrote it, what makes you think you have the slightest idea what it’s about?'”

To which I say ‘balderdash’ and ‘piffle’ and a few less well chosen words besides.

More facts:
I have multiple friends whom I am exceedingly protective of who have been abused, raped, and had other similar experiences.
I have been a victim of sexual abuse by a family member while growing up.

A blonde chick walks into a bar. Barkeep says “Well, time to get lucky before she wakes up! Who’s got sloppy seconds?”

Golly gee, batman! Maybe I should go turn myself in for being a potential rapist!

I’m sorry, but that argument just doesn’t hold any weight with me. Somehow I don’t think it ever will.

I’m in a Rocky Horror cast. Have been for years. Know what I crack jokes about?

The Holocaust, September 11th, Hurricaine Katrina, the Japanese Tsunami.

Guess that means I may be the next person to try and conquer Europe and kill millions of Jews! Better warn NATO!

Sometimes? A Cigar is just a cigar. A Story is just a story. A Joke is just a joke.

I don’t need you applying your mental baggage to me or anyone else. If you’ve got a mental complex to work out? I hope you do so, but don’t go putting everyone else into the same bag because of your baggage.

Let’s call it a cautious agreement on the subjective artistic judgment thing; I’m not convinced we mean the same things by that (for example, when I say that I mean “a knowledgeable and thought-through critical stance mediated by a shared aesthetic culture,” not “uninformed opinion”) but who knows, we might.

On the other hand, I do think that people who handle the issue badly are doing real harm to real people, both immediately and by changing cultural norms. If your artistic judgment around this issue is poor, yes, you are contributing to the sum total of evil in the world.

I would like to know how you’ve handled this in your works (or others you know) and how it has been used as a device that provokes both the dramatic stakes you talk about and deals with the subject matter in a sophisticated way. I think this discussion could benefit with some specific examples and how they play out.

So far as I can recall I have only used rape in one story and that’s unpublished as yet. It’s a kind of play on BDSM and internet arenas such as Second Life where people play out a lot of their kink fantasies, also a reference to the Bruce Willis film ‘Surrogates’ (which was surprisingly good).

I don’t want to give away the story before it’s published so I can’t really discuss it further than that.

I don’t think most people are reading past the word ‘awesome’ in the post. If they did I go into why it’s a great plot device, all the nuances, effects etc that it goes into that make it so powerful.

All I can see are questions relating to the social, psychological, biological and thematic ramifications but not necessarily how or why the rape plot device is better than say, the protagonist becoming homeless or some other large event (ignoring plot-appropriateness). The next paragraphs just go into if it’s trivialised in media.

If the only chick in a work was barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, or the only black woman in the work was a maid, or the only gay guy in the work had been abused by men as a child, would that be lazy writing?

Sure would. This is massively lazy storytelling, and I say that as a storyteller. It’s unquestioning. It assumes women exist to have things done to them. It’s the first thing a writer pulls out of their tool bag when they want to threaten a female character, or characterize a bad guy as “bad.”

Lazy. Expected. Cliche.

Murder isn’t gendered. Rape, largely, is. And it’s used as a tool of oppression, of keeping women “in their place” in this particular time and place. It has nothing to do with sex, or sexual desire, which is why it was weird that that came up at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. It is about power. Saying who has it. And who doesn’t.

Imagine a world in which you’re meat. In which every story you read isn’t about what you do… but what people *do* to you. Would it piss you off? Would you start actively challenging those assumptions, and writing stories in which you’re an active agent? Would you start actually combing through the historical record, to see if stuff had really always been this way? Cause you might be surprised what you find. And it might encourage you to build more imaginative worlds.

Let’s imagine other worlds. And how gender and oppression work on those worlds. Are they the same as they are here? Really? Because if it’s just the same old story no matter what world you’re creating, that says something about the assumptions that you, as a writer, are bringing to the table. And if there’s anything we need to question when we sit down to write, it’s the assumptions we’re bringing to the work.

Start reading writers who challenge lazy writing. Who don’t just throw in random rape scenes because they don’t know how else to characterize a bad guy. There are far worse, and far more interesting things you can do to a character than just throw out a lazy rape threat. It’s cliched. It goes for the easy punch.

Think beyond it.

I think you’ll be really astounded at the work you do when you stop pulling out the same old tired stuff.

It needn’t necessarily be lazy writing, no. Simply being a plot element doesn’t make it lazy. Being cliche or stereotype doesn’t necessarily make it bad.

First thing?

The post argues that it’s a useful thing to have and explains WHY. Doesn’t say it should be the only thing, just kicks back against the automatic PRESUMPTION that it is NECESSARILY cheap, hackneyed, cliche or lazy. (Or simply bad/evil/wrong and should never be used ever, which is what some people seem to think).

Imagine being a painter and being told you can’t use yellow ever again, because it’s offensive. Why restrict your palette?

There’s a lot of presumption in your comment which simply isn’t warranted by the post and which is also rather patronising. If you want to discuss the actual post, please do.

Glad you enjoyed it! Yeah, somehow I’ve managed to write a pulpy, award-winning, slash n’ hack book (three of them now, actually) without raping even one of my heroines. It’s weird how I keep signing contracts for books in which unexpected things happen.

Do you honestly think that true love can ever, in any realistic circumstance, stem from an act as hateful, dehumanizing, and damaging as rape?

Actually, lets take this in another direction. I think we can all agree that people who dismiss real life rape victims as “wanting/enjoying it in the end” are awful. These people do exist, and in surprisingly large numbers. I am attempting some good faith in assuming you are not one of these people. Assuming a writer is so skilled that they can write a convincing love story that begins with rape, do you not believe that even this story could perpetuate the misogynistic view mentioned above?

People are strange things. I think yes, it could, whether through Stockholm syndrome or changes over time. People do genuinely fall in love through political and other arranged marriages, which isn’t rape admittedly, but still.

There are examples some people might hold up from history, whether statutory or actual rape.

I avoided talking about skill or quality because it’s essentially irrelevant to the argument given, being so subjective. I think skilled writers can tell great stories about just about anything. I draw a sharp line between fact and fiction and weirdly the only people I see regularly unable to do so are moral crusaders.

While I agree it is possible for a victim to believe they are in love with their abuser, either through Stockholm syndrome or the far more common “battered wife” situation, this is far from the true and healthy love I was attempting to reference, the same love celebrated in the romance genre.

While it is theoretically possible a past rapist and victim could fall in love, it would only be possible through, at best, forgiving or, at worst, ignoring the rape. The love certainly wouldn’t have stemmed from the rape, or even existed during the abuse. Rapists do not rape due to love or lust, but as a show of power. I would also posit that real life instances of this love are so rare as to be non-existent from a statistical point of view, and wonder if any real life examples would actually fall in the category discussed in my last paragraph, ie unhealthy and non-genuine.

That said, you ignored my second point. Do you not agree that any such story based on these ideas might encourage the misogynistic misconception that rape can lead to consensual sex, and then love?

I also question your refusal to discuss the quality of the writing in stories that might use rape as a plot point. Authorial intent and ability to accurately communicate that intent is vital when the subject matter is as serious and misrepresented as rape is. As an example, an historians fictional story about a Jewish woman in Nazi Germany will be far different both in quality and accuracy from that told by a Christian, American high-school drop out, or worse an active Holocaust denier.

Finally, it is impossible for you to judge a “moral crusaders” ability to separate fact and fiction, and questioning it does no more good for the discussion than if I assumed you where a rapist. Do not build straw-men, and instead reference the points actually addressed to you.

What’s the difference between believing you love someone and actually loving them? Slim, if existent at all. We’re not concerned – necessarily – whether it can be true or healthy love necessarily and we’re also talking within the realm of fiction and drama where things are a touch more flexible.

You talk in a lot of certainties that I don’t agree with, which is why I’m skipping over the middle section. Part of the problem here is the huge variation in the definitions of rape which, incidentally, also foxes a lot of the surveys and research on the subject.

I did not ignore your second point, indeed you reference my reply yourself in your last lines about being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. In my experience it is almost entirely the moral crusaders who think that these kind of things have a bearing on people’s actual behaviour. Short version, no, and I find it more worrying that anyone would think that it would than I find transgressive or difficult material. After all, we’ve been through this before with Horror Comics, DND, Rap Music, Video Games and every single time the contention gets knocked down. The recent hullabaloo over sexual/sexist content (the two being frequently confused) is just another in a long line of moral panics about everything from sexy table legs to Elvis’ shimmy.

I refuse to discuss the quality of writing because the point of the piece is not about quality – which is subjective. If you get into a quality argument all you’re arguing is opinion and that can go on forever and go nowhere. If you assume I’m a rapist you have nothing to go on, where s when I see that you seem to imply, or even say, that fiction and reality blur – by your example of saying rape can lead to consensual sex and then love I have something to back up that assertion. You say it. Right there in black and white. If you want to clarify your position and retract it, please do but it’s not a straw man as it is said, not just here but in other comments.

Just ask yourself, as I asked in the edited-in preamble, do you honestly think rape should never, ever, ever be part of a story? You talk about quality. Is that an admission – then – that the work should be judged on its quality RATHER than a kneejerk reaction to the nature of the content?

I agree with most of your commentary. However, I wouldn’t say that rape is some shit that can happen, but does happen, according to Rainn.org, every 2 minutes in the U.S. I personally don’t think it’s a fucking awesome plot element. When I write it, it’s painful, not awesome, because it does trigger stuff. But I do it because I have to tell this story. It’s important to me that I tell my story. Functionally, though, writing it as the central conflict in a romantic fantasy novel, it adds weight and complexity to the relationships between my characters. And writing the villain actually does make me feel awesome. Writing this novel makes me feel awesome overall. LOL. Anyway. What’s also interesting to me is exploring the male perspective in the relationship and how rape affects their sex life and his masculinity, because in fantasy and romance novels the heroes are usually always invincible and save the day. But what happens when he doesn’t?

Painful can be awesome. Misery tourism is a thing people like to read. Horror is a thing people like to read. Enjoyment and entertainment is a strange thing. As you say, it adds weight and complexity so yes, it IS an awesome plot element (like many others) because of what it can add. I like the sound of the plotting you mention at the end. For the love of kittens, I never said RAPE is awesome >.<

It wasn’t hard for me to understand, but I am also one of the minority of literate Americans who thinks Fifty Shades of Grey is crap. I like kittens. I hope they are not feeling too beaten up by the negative comments on your blog.

Well, matter of taste. I don’t reckon much to it but it has brought kink a little more into the light which is nice to see happen. Kittens are indeed, awesome. My cat has not been kicked as a result of internet arse-heads.

Just want you feminazi bints to know that I’ll be raping one woman for every stupid whining comment about how rape is the worst thing in the world and that using it as part of a story is trivializing it. I promise to follow through on this.

In the Way of Shadows trilogy the main bad guy is a vile emperor who uses his military might to take whatever he wants. He is the ruler of a brutal barbaric society and along the way gets his hands on a main female character who he takes as his queen and rapes her over and over again. The writer uses this device to prove that a) this guy is evil and has no depths to his depravity and b) shows the strength of the female character to endure such mistreatment. The entire time you want her to get out of the situation but she can’t and it gives both the villain and the woman added dimensions, more so to the female character who until that point was just a throwaway “pretty princess” type. But let’s be honest here, most of the people who think rape should never be brought up aren’t mature enough to discuss the topic anyway. Flame on!

Rape is a sensitive subject to bring up in a work. As you said, it is quite shocking. It’s only lazy when it’s used to evoke emotions in a work that otherwise doesn’t, i.e., when it’s apparent that the writer simply lacks the talent to engage the reader emotionally and has to use shock to accomplish the goal. Rape has a place as a literary element, but it should be used with great care and only by authors talented enough to give it the proper treatment and illustrate its sheer horror. Overuse dulls its impact.

Ace article, loved it. I’ve been thinking that society is so fucking nice, so fucking clean, it’s annoying as all hell. We shouldn’t be all about “Political Correctness” we should be all about “reality”. That little thing.

I can see the appeal of shiny happy fantasy, but I think the ‘winds’ are blowing a different way. More grit, more adult, more mature in a lot of fiction. Maybe things like GoT and Spartacus are a backlash against relatively neutered entertainment.

Personally, I can’t agree. There’s a million ways death can be used in a story, but rape is really not that deep or complex a plot point. It has been trivialized, because my instinctive reaction when I hear the word rape used in the context of a story is to groan, and possibly mumble ‘oh god not this shit again.’

Secondly, you’re acting under the impression that rape is controversial topic. Its not. Pretty much everyone outside of certain militias can agree that rape is a shitty thing, along with murder and fucking kids. Rape is used to establish who is the goodie and who is the baddy, because a goodie, while he is allowed to kill, torture (Punisher for example), steal and fight, he can never, ever rape, or he is a baddy, regardless of how little sense that makes. The issue is that rape occupies a special place in mass conciousness; we’ve actually been deluded into thinking its worse than killing someone. However, when a writer uses that to create false sympathy for an annoying or unlikeable character, it just seems like…lazy writing! Rape is used to justify sheer unimaginativeness on the part of the writer in creating an interesting character.

Murder and death, however, remain interesting, because they are final. The closing word, and because we have an odd relationship with death that no amount of rape can match.

Rape – or mutilation or other incidents – are more interesting story-wise because they’re not final. Because life goes on, changed and damaged. The murder of somebody else can affect a character, but still.

Anyway, the body of your argument seems to be the same old ‘it’s not done well’ thing, which is subjective and not actually disapproving of it as a device.

It’s incredible that you took the time out of your day to write a thought-provoking piece that is both well presented and maintains a neutral tone throughout it. Although rape is a horrible crime, it still serves a purpose in a fantasy story in establishing a person’s motives and can act as an interesting starting point for a story.

In my spare time I GM for my friends, and Rape is one of the subjects that just doesn’t occur. It doesn’t happen in backstories, and it doesn’t happen during the game because we aren’t exactly comfortable with it. It’s a very volatile subject, as the posts beneath your article show.

It’s really unfortunate that the very nature and title of your article got so much flak and mistreatment, most of which seems to stem from people demonizing your writing without giving it a fair chance. It sucks that people can be so ignorant and assholish.

The title was intended to be provocative but few people seem to have actually read past it and gotten the point. I’m glad to see that the posts are reaching a wider audience capable of thought. Though I never thought that would happen via 4chan! I seem to have broken the internet.

It has turned up in our games background and foreground. An abyssal exalted’s camps to produce (briefly) living flesh for the bone fits and necromantic engines, hooks in a character’s past, motivations. It can be done well, and in books, film and games too. Trouble is what is ‘done well’ varies from person to person.

I don’t write these things as bait, I write them because they’re genuine worries and concerns of mine. I suffer pretty badly from depression which makes dealing with the kind of vitriolic responses you’ve seen very difficult but I think I’ve largely kept my cool this time around.

It certainly can be squicky (and probably should be outside kink circles) but people seem ready to write things off, sight unseen, simply because it involves the topic. Thanks for the comment though. Appreciated.

People who say that it’s wrong to include rape in story telling are just lying to themselves. Those of you who are arguing that the writer of the blog is “sick” or a “rapist” are missing the point. If rape is such a horrible thing that needs to be avoided, why is it so prominently featured in some of televisions more popular crime shows? Law and Order: Special Victims Unit is based around rape and sexual assault, yet it still manages to be very popular. As Grimachu mentioned, the Greek myths are prominently featured in our society (whether obvious or in allusion) and most mythologies feature rape.

While in reality, rape is a horrible thing to have to live through, our culture enjoys watching it play out on a screen or in a novel.

While I’d never want to be raped in real life, it’s emotionally stimulating to be placed in the shoes of a character in danger. Horror films do something similar, using fear of death and the unknown instead of fear of physical or emotional abuse. It forces the reader to feel bad for the character faster, causing a link and creating a deeper story. This can be difficult for people who are not writers to understand.

As for the author, I am inspired by his courage. He stated his opinion on the internet, a controversial opinion no less. In the world of the web, that’s like putting a target sign on your back. If you don’t agree with what he says, at least respect him for having the balls to say something about an issue that most media outlets wouldn’t try to touch with a 10 foot pole.

Hell since a lot of people have been putting it I’ll say this, I’m female. For some reason this is important to people. Well I’m female and I support this article. Rape is a very emotional plot device and shouldn’t stop being used. It doesn’t make rape more appealing. If done right rape in stories to the character the readers are emotionally attached to make it seem even worse to readers not better. It happens in the world and sheltering people from whats out there wont help. This article was very well done and its sad people don’t seem to finish reading it or simply ignore it. Rape like murder should never be taken lightly but it shouldn’t be hidden. Hiding it would only make things worse. There now there’s another FEMALE perspective that you can read. The author doesn’t hate women for writing this if you simply think about it you can tell that. And things like BDSM aren’t bad they are fantasy and many women such as myself enjoy them from both roles.

I am not sure I have much to add, so short version:
Can rape be an important plot element?
Toni Morrison’s Beloved, Alice Walker’s The Color Purple, and Push by Sapphire seem to indicate as much.
I am surprised this hasn’t been mentioned earlier.

To be slightly cynical, my guess is many people have never read these books. They’re not ‘fun’ to read, and are written by minority women (and ‘Push’ is even written in appropriate dialect). They’re brilliant, but generally not mass-consumption texts.

I was raped by a man I was dating. As someone said earlier, it was one of those whole, ‘I’m-not-going-to-stop-despite-you-saying-no’ instances. He was much larger than me and pinned me down easily.

Having been raped, I understand why people think it’s such a problem. If it were only a year since it happened, I wouldn’t be able to tolerate this discussion. Being further removed through the years has given me strength to deal with it a bit better. That said, sometimes, yes, texts ‘trigger’ me, which is a very serious problem. Ann Rice’s erotic retelling of Sleeping Beauty was a trigger in the first few pages.

But it is not the world’s responsibility to protect and shelter me from these stories, these plotlines. Doing so victimises me further: I am unable to defend myself from rape narratives just as I was unable to defend myself from rape. Society feels a need to protect me because they couldn’t protect me in the first place. I will never *not* be a victim.

I just need to be alerted that these things occur, and I don’t think you’d object to clear labelling that rape is an element of the narrative. NB: I’m not talking about the pervasive use of ‘trigger warnings’ on the internet, which are becoming so commonplace that I might as well pack up and leave the internet. I mean books, games, and other published/produced works having (either in their rating or in a small footnote, similar to what television does) a line saying rape occurs. Then *I* can say, ‘You know what, this isn’t for me. And that’s ok’–letting those who CAN deal with it, deal with it.

Shifting to gaming culture, I do feel there is an overt sexualisation of women that I would love to see toned back (e.g. huge bouncing breasts, barely-there armour that makes no sense contextually). Rape is not NECESSARILY one of those elements. Can it be? Oh absolutely. There are plenty of Japanese sex games that I’m sure include rape for pure objectification. When used as plot device though, a different pattern emerges. Of course, the skill involved in involving such an element is important: all of those effects you discuss MUST be explored, the rape MUST have impact, or we get those games I have aforementioned.

I don’t think I’ll be able to play Tomb Raider because of the interactive element of the rape (i.e. you can choose whether or not to save her? That’s not a choice in my book), but by no means should that impact anyone else buying, playing, or even developing it.

I agree with your basic premise that rape as a plot element is powerful and can be acceptable. The art that we create can focus on the uglier elements of our society and still be valid.

However, I feel that in current popular culture the threat of rape is disproportionately applied to women. It’s true that the threat of rape in everday society is disproportionately applicable to women, but we also live in a society where we trivialize prison rape and often treat it like the punchline to a joke and pretend that men don’t get raped outside of prison.

We live in a culture where it’s acceptable to have raped heroines, but not raped heroes.

Fiction that uses rape as a plot element tends to downplay its afteraffects. It’s often used as motivation for female heroes or set dressing to show how evil certain characters are. As you say, the situation could lead to interesting character dynamics, but more often the victim’s situation is not explored and it’s either ignored or just glossed over.

And if you’re presenting this story to a female audience of any significant size, it’s statistically probable that some of them were raped.

These factors make it important to be extremely cautious about employing rape as a plot device. Is it a good idea to take one of the few iconic female videogame characters and make her a rape victim? How is that going to affect the women who look up to her as an escapist power fantasy? Is it appropriate? Are you really saying anything that couldn’t be said just as well without triggering the rape victims in your audience?

I don’t think rape should be a plot point that simply isn’t allowed, but it should be approached with extreme thoughtfulness as to whether or not it is appropriate and beneficial to the narrative. There are plenty of other horrible things that can happen to characters, and most of these things aren’t things that women get blamed for bringing on themselves by dressing provocatively or going out in mixed company.

As a final note, I find your choice of image to illustrate this post to be problematic. You have a relaxed erotic Leda banging a swan. No one looking at that image without knowing context would read that interaction as being rape. They would just see her as a weird swan fucker.

I think people are more sensitive to it when it’s about women and it’s presented as horrific, rather than a joke, when directed at women. Even the rape of Marcellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction is comedy through caricature but it does drive the plot forward and shift the character. These instances of male rape or reference thereto do exist. You’re – again – getting into discussions of quality which as I’ve said before is subjective and a rabbit hole I don’t want to get into.

RE: The Lara thing, a guy touching her bum and getting his arse beat isn’t rape and the company say rape never was part of her background/storyline disavowing what was said by one person at a show in one conversation. Yet people reacted as though it were that and the definite truth and all without knowing if it was really there or how it was handled.

That was a prompt to write the original post because people are just writing things off sight unseen and making fusses about them in ignorance.

Like anything else in the rich tapestry of human experience, good and bad, I think rape should be available and not given any special, extra consideration over murder, torture, terrorism or whatever else you care to mention. Whether that means treating rape with less concern or other ‘bad things’ with more concern, I leave to the reader.

The choice of Leda and the Swan was both as a historical reference to a trope and because that specific image was censored from a gallery because people could see it from the street and deemed it bestiality. It’s a great illustration of the stupidity of censorship.

In my teen years I read a series of books by V. C. Andrews. The first in the set was called Flowers in the Attic. The series contains both rape and incest and was one of the most compelling series I ever read. I believe when well written all elements are for wonderful reading. And as a person who has gone through being raped in reality, I love to read about it in stories because I can relate to the situation and or characters.

Well, I can’t get over the over-reactive lunatic fringe who comment on this blog.

As a woman, as a writer, I feel that rape, like all other experiences that put humans in extremis, can be an excellent plot crisis. It’s not any lazier than including all the other extreme situations that humans experience.

Nor, does the post specify the sex of the FICTIONAL RAPED person, so all the commenters who immediately have jumped on the writer for being a sick fuck who gets off on REAL RAPE should wonder which sex he prefers to encounter in his fictional wanderings.

We are talking FICTION here. FICTION.

And to all those hysterics: rape in a plot does not imply any more tolerance for a real crime than murder mysteries imply a tolerance for real murder. Don’t be fucking stupid.

This cranked up righteous indignation bullshit has reached a ridiculous pitch. If you really care about preventing real rape, spend your excess energy raising funds to help women in the Democratic People’s Republic of the Congo. Where it’s endemic.

I’m not sure if rape counts as an “awesome” plot device, but it certainly is powerful. From my read, the author is not saying rape SHOULD be in a story, nor that rape is good, fun, exciting, etc. He simply said that rape CAN be an important plot element to a story, game, or what have you. I agree. I don’t want to see it in fiction, but if it’s there, I can get past it. But the author’s intent–that rape is a strong plot device–is solid.

And I really don’t see why people are so worked up over this article. It even specifically says rape is used by evil characters! See, the author says rape = bad! For Pete’s sake, internet. Calm down.

Seeing rape just another plot device, is the fucking problem people are having with. I honestly wonder, how people who see it analytically _just_ a plot device, would ever be able to handle it in matter it is not lazy writing? Because you basically admit it to be lazy writing to keeping it just an another plot device. Because people writing about horrible things happening the most delicate ways that people will relate to, will feel the empathy, love and frustration of other people, won’t keep those horrible things just “story elements”. It’s specific horrible situations, not just “murder/rape/genocide”-plot device thing you just glue here or there – which, by the way, is done way too often, way too obviously and is simply lazy fucking writing. By keeping it such a vague thing as just a plot device, a good plot device, but still just a plot device, you will never be able to make something that will touch people the right, only the way “Look at me, I wrote a rape scene”-guy. I suggest to not be that guy.

It is just another plot device, when you’re writing. An individual one, but one of many. Using rape doesn’t make the writing lazy, bad or wrong and such judgements are always going to be subjective. As I’ve said before, I’m not interested into getting into that argument as it’s all to do with taste and opinion. It seems you agree though, it should not be taken off the table.

I cannot see the issue. Many writers use rape as a plot device in stories, films, books, movies and even games. It’s a bad thing in real life, but stories include bad things and how people cope with them.

[…] The petition against quotes you writing “rape is fucking awesome” in a blog post you titled In Defence of Rape but the full quote is “Rape or attempted rape is a fucking awesome plot element, one of many.” […]

I will agree with your main premise that in a free society, the artist must have the freedom to address or incorporate any elements they see as fit.

However, I think the notion that you are ostensibly objecting to (that all mention of or reference to rape should be disallowed) is a fringe view at best and a straw (wo)man at worst.

Most of the feminists I know do not believe that the use of rape should be completely off-limits, but rather that it should be handled tastefully and sensitively. You have repeatedly avoided any discussion of this crucial distinction in the comments on this post by saying that you want to avoid a subjective discussion of quality and taste. Yet that is exactly where the true heart of this debate lies, not in the simplistic question of whether or not anything should be “allowed” for artists.

Between this, your dismissal of those who object to this post as hysterical freedom-hating trolls who can’t distinguish between fantasy and reality, and your dismissive and/or contemptuous attitude towards feminist thought in general, you come off as unwilling to engage in honest dialog or learn anything that might contradict your current opinions. I personally find this sort of close-minded attitude far more objectionable than the point you think you are making (and being attacked for) in the original article.

I understand your point of view but my experience differs. One need only look into some of the statements by Ms Cooper (the one who set up the petition against me) to see that the line between reality and fantasy seems to virtually not exist for these people. 150 or so nuts on the internet might not be a huge number but you do see the same attitude that topics, interpretations and so on are ‘off limits’ across a lot of media and a lot of it comes from people who characterise themselves as feminists. Not that their views match up to any feminists I actually know in person.

A taste and capability argument is useless because it is so subjective. When it comes to individual works people can argue that but then it’s about the work (and never really ends) and not about the topic.

The original post was a response to just this sort of censorious arena we have in regard to this ‘cloud’ of topics and I don’t think it is – any longer – adhered to only by a fringe.

I am not dismissive or contemptuous of feminist thought, I am dismissive and contemptuous of unfounded and unchallenged ideas and, ironically enough, sexism coming from people who claim to be feminists. Egalitarianism, sure. This stuff? This… Orwellian stuff? No.

[…] the most widely publicized example of rape apologia in RPG circles was James Desborough’s coming out in defense of rape as a plot element. His writing was widely criticized in light of his past writings, some of which featured […]

[…] an end to and a line under all the nonsensical fuss that’s bubbled along constantly since my ‘In Defence of Rape’ article. At every stage the accusations and opprobrium have gotten worse and worse until in the […]

Do I say that “rape can never, ever, ever be a useful, good or well treated story element”? No. Do I feel that rape is overused and more often than not lazy and/or bad writing? Oh yes. Let’s face it – quality stories involving rape can easily be counted on the fingers of one hand. If you have to go straight for rape to elicit a reaction from your readers you should take a moment to consider why that is.
It’s like the killing of cats and dogs in horror films – lazy writing and a fairly reliable indicator of poor talent. But these eejits calling you a rape apologist are off piste.

One of my favourite hard sci-fi series is ‘Bio of a Space Tyrant’ by Piers Anthony (known for pulp fantasy). The first scene of the first book is a brutal rape and murder. It is harrowing, and it is meant to be. The victim does not survive, she had just married the protagonist of the series and her wedding dress, torn and bloodied after the assault, prevents her space suit from sealing when the pirates, who had raped her as her new husband watched, vented the ship to space. They had been refugees, childhood sweethearts fleeing for a better life.

Just recounting the scene brings me to tears. I have male genitals. I am also a rape victim. Rape has nothing to do with gender (despite what female superiorists would have you believe). MANY rapists are women, but I digress.
The entire series is the consequence of this rape. 5 books, dedicated to the psychological trauma of this event, and the change it brings in this young man – His drive for vengeance and his need to suppress his broken heart drive him to rule the solar system, and to hold his wife in his heart all that time. It drives him to unite the worlds, to eliminate the poverty he was fleeing, to wipe out piracy, and to not only legalize prostitution by to provide it as a government service part of as an attempt to wipe out rape.

Anyone who argues that rape has no place in fiction also argues that rape victims have no right to a voice. What is a trigger for you is a release to somebody else. To another person it is an attempt to understand. Sanitising literature will do nothing to help us. Just as banning murder fiction will do nothing to reduce murder rates.
If it is a trigger to you – DONT READ IT.
Or maybe do, it just might be cathartic – I shed more than a few tears writing this. I feel a bit better now.

And you know what. I fully support the creation of games with rape in them. Even gratuitous rape. Cos if just one sick fuck gets their rocks off in their imagination rather than with another human being then that is a damn good thing in my book. And because what right do I have to speak if I try to take the speech of others. I will not be helping the NSA, or the Taliban, or anyone else destroy our freedom – and freedom of speech is the most basic building block of freedom of thought.

I cannot think of a single valid reason to censor rape from literary works. I can certainly think of a lot of emotive knee jerk pseudologic. But not one real reason. Because in the end every case you can make against is actually one for – we have the right to express as victims, the need to explore the consequences as a society and the responsibility as individuals to try to understand the plight of victims, and the minds of perpetrators so that we can stop them.
Something being unpleasant does not mean it should be ignored, or swept under the carpet – it should be brought into the air to heal.

A good writing plays on emotion and in my experience the best works come from writers that have experienced these things themselves. Sometimes it is not enough to have a good imagination. And letting your audience know you have been through something similar can invoke the kind of empathy necessary to provide a connection based on understanding.

There will always be people who cannot handle intense scenes. They are justified in their own feelings but they must also understand that what has been written may provide room for life changing events to occur in someone else’s life. If you do not like a subject or do not like a book. Move on.

I agree, a man being raped is a powerful plot point. And considering that 1 in 7 men have suffered sexual abuse (mostly as children), it’s part of the reality we live in. It’s not as common as incidents of sexual assault against women (1 in 3 individuals have faced this) but the dynamics of male rape are so much more complex and the victim normally faces questions about their sexual orientation (this is common among male victims). I think it is an element of drama and conflict that can add layers of nuance to a work of fiction and should be part of your “toolbox”.

And since so many authors are squeamish about acknowledging male sexual assault and incorporating it into their work, it would be novel ground that isn’t an overused moral trope like the rape of women. It’s also would be a nice change to see a male character wrestling with the dynamics of being a victim instead of being the one inflicting the violence.

Yes, this would be a book I’d read or movie I’d watch, especially if it explored the effect of rape on the development of young boys, it has particularly powerful effects at that age. An example would be Mystic River, the rape of an adolescent boy drives much of the story so it can be a very useful plot point.

IIRC your stats are considerably off, but otherwise, yes I agree. However I don’t think ‘overuse’ or quality (subjective both) are reasons to block use of any tropes. I don’t think its justified to constrict free expression at all.

1 in 7 men vs 1 in 3 women REPORT being sexually assaulted – but massive surveys have shown men are at least 5x less likely to report sexal assault for amass of reasons – mostly being mocked as not being manly, being told they would have loved it, the myth men cant be raped and if they are hard must want it etc. The awful reality is half of the population or more have been sexually assaulted and rape and DV stats are likely a lot nearer gender parity than most of us suspect, likely 3:2. for female:male rape and straight parity for DV. In the US it is believed that male rape victims outnumber females in large part due to the enormous number of prisoners (casualties of the failed drug war, along with all those dying in afghanistan and those who have died in south and central american US machinations )

[…] issue of ‘The crazies’ – or similar – has been brought up several times. The article I wrote defending the use of unpleasant tropes in stories (rape in particular) has been cited a few times. Rather absurd to be living in a world […]

I think it’s silly to ban rape in video game stories, that’s like banning beating a woman in books. Why would anybody do that? It’s part of a compelling story (if it’s not just reveling in it) and the purpose is to create villains and victims and heroes. You might as well ban anybody getting shot, any building getting blown up, any child getting hurt, any animal getting hurt, anybody fighting, any blood, any swearing… I could go on and on. Banning a hurtful thing because it’s traumatic is pointless and takes out an entire compelling reason to care about the story and characters.

I am against sexual violence of any kind and am not interested in seeing it, that said, art should be free from strings.
A movie showing rape can show rape to show that rape is bad.
Similarly a story involving rape can involve rape to involve the reader in the terrifying and awful experience that is rape, which can help to show people how bad rape is and to perhaps persuade people to stay away from rape.

That said, I think men should get raped in media too. I don’t remember any outcry about all the rapes that have happened in various prison shows and films over the years.

The Shawshank Redemption is lauded as one of the best films of all time and does it not basically have a rape scene involving a man getting raped?

[…] of Zoe Quinn in #burgersandfries (this one embarrassingly was removed from the site). Another cheerleads rape as a game trope and had a financial investment from founder Alexander Macris for his Gor-themed RPG that was […]

[…] I wrote a blog article defending the use of nasty events and traumatic experiences in fiction (In Defence of Rape) and ever since then have been harassed, demonised and subjected to a level of scrutiny that Big […]