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Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply...

Hi,
I'm a first time poster, and I apologize in advance for the length of this post. My little guy is 4 mo and is EBF. Breastfeeding has never been easy for us. He has never been able to maintain a good latch. Nursing was really painful for the first 4-5 weeks; it's better now, but still uncomfortable. He has two modes of eating with the same result. He usually will eat for only 2-5 minutes before pulling off and crying or screaming. He is still acting hungry, but I can't latch him back on. He'll open his mouth and I'll pull him in, but he will pull back from me. Sometimes I think he's going to launch himself off of my lap. Or he will latch on, suck once, pull off and repeat. It would be comical if it wasn't so frustrating! Lately he's been pulling back as soon as I lay him down in position. His other mode is where he will "eat" for a long time, like 40 minutes on one side. If I take him off, he will wake up and start rooting and putting his hands in his mouth and trying to latch back on.
At 10 weeks he was diagnosed with tongue tie and he had his tongue clipped. It's been almost 8 weeks since the procedure and we haven't noticed any improvements in his feeding. We've been to 4 lactation consultants, an OT, an SLP, and a chiropractor. No one has been able to help. He sucks his bottom lip in while nursing and will just slide down the nipple. My nipple always is misshapen after he nurses. When we've seen the LCs, he only takes in about an ounce at a feeding. He has good weight gain because I feed him so frequently!
I also think I have an oversupply issue. I've tried different position and block feeding for four hours with no improvement. He is still fussy when eating. He has been on Zantac and Prevacid with no difference.
He also has very mucousy stools. He had that for at least three months. He has also had about 7 diapers that have had a teensy amount of blood. I've been on a dairy free diet for about two and a half weeks and have been wheat free for about four days.
This past weekend we tried having me pump and feed him exclusively from a bottle to see if that was easier for him. He still has trouble. He'll eat a little bit and then fuss.
It's really hard having these feedings be so stressful for him. I'm running out of options and don't know what to do. I spend my whole day feeding him (ounce by ounce, apparently). It would be okay if he was content after the little feeds, but he is not, he's frustrated. Any thoughts would be welcome. Thanks so much!

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

First of all, That must be so rough! I had a hard time for the first five weeks and then a clipped tie improved everything, but I remember 5 weeks seeming like forever! Looks like you have tried a lot of things, and I don't know if my experience will help but I can say my son had a lot of the same issues yours is having and we did some things that improved his eating behavior.

First, my LC showed me a sort of physical therapy I could do with him. I would stick my finger in his mouth with the nail side toward his tongue, then I would kind of push my finger at the tip down into his tongue to make it come further out. You could feel that he was biting on your finger with his bottom gum and he is supposed to have his tongue over his bottom gum. I would do this until his tongue went out over his gum and I couldn't feel the clamping down anymore.

We also had a ritual everytime I fed him, when I latched him on my husband or my mother would put their finger on his chin and push it down so it would open wide. They'd brace the back of his head, so this was really forceful, and they wouldn't stop until he relaxed. We had to do this for 3 or 4 weeks but he finally started opening wider when he nursed.

The other thing I did a lot was I would latch him on while sitting up in bed, or on the couch, then I would lay back so I was really reclined and he was on top of me to nurse. He didn't fuss and pull on my nipple and unlatch nearly as much in this position. My milk finally regulated around 5 months or so and we don't have that prob anymore.

Good luck, I hope some other ladies have more specific to your situation advice, but thought my little methods might help, too!

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

A lot of people don't like this solution but I used a nipple shield with DS till he was able to learn to suck correctly he too had to have a tongue tie cut, they have to learn to use their tongue in a new way after that though....I think the shield kind of helped him learn the correct latch but it took a few weeks.

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

Just an idea...are you sure the clipping really released all of the restricted tissue of his tongue? I suggest this because that's what happened with us- at 5 weeks my DS had his tongue clipped by an ENT- just the typical quick snip with scissors. I continued to have pain, and my LC said she still felt restriction when she put her finger under his tongue, so we ended up taking him to a pediatric dentist to have the tongue released with a laser. Sometimes the tongue can partially (or completely) reattach itself or sometimes they don't clip far enough back, and the procedure needs to be done again. I've actually heard it's very common to have to do it twice! We had it done at the end of October and it took a good couple weeks to notice real improvement. Maybe look into having his tongue re-evaluated just so you know if they got it all? I feel your pain- DS is almost 4months too and I'm finally seeing what pain-free nursing is supposed to feel like!

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate them. @Adb821- Our lactation consultant said she still felt a thick band, but thought we should do less invasive things first (i.e. the dairy and wheat elimination diet - although I don't know how that relates to a bad latch). I think I might go back to the dentist and see what he says. Did you notice any improvement right away or did it take some weeks?
@Magnoliahoney - Did you use a nipple shield for every feeding and for the entire feeding? I've tried a nipple shield randomly and sometimes he'll take it and sometimes he won't latch on at all. But over a few weeks, it worked for you?
@Mskalinin - Thanks for the exercise suggestion. Did you do anything to help regulate your milk supply or did it just happen naturally?

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

[QUOTE=@llli*columbusmumsy;1213036]Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate them. @Adb821- Our lactation consultant said she still felt a thick band, but thought we should do less invasive things first (i.e. the dairy and wheat elimination diet - although I don't know how that relates to a bad latch). I think I might go back to the dentist and see what he says. Did you notice any improvement right away or did it take some weeks?QUOTE]

I really would encourage you to go see the dentist. Does he do laser procedures? I'm in the Northeast and there were only two dentists around that do the procedure. It did take about a week or so to notice it getting better, and after 2 or so it was MUCH better. I did notice that he didn't have to work as hard to get milk out, and he wasn't doing as much jaw quivering pretty much right away. Since our kids are on the older side for having the procedure, I was told to expect it to take awhile since they have to learn how to use their tongue all over again. My LC encouraged me to do it- and I agree with you, I don't see how the diet elimination would help his latch problem. Plus, a tongue tie can have negative effects on speech later on, and if they do it when they're older, they have to use anesthesia. So, IMO, the sooner the better.

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

I also have no idea why diet would have effect on a latch. I think that's pretty silly advice. I've heard you should not do a "diet" (especially where you cut out certain foods) unless you HAVE to. Cause you could compromise your milk supply by not getting enough calories in. tongue clipping is NOT that invasive especially for a small baby. That's crazy to me.

Well he took the shield with out a problem. He is no longer on the shield now though. I have tongue tie run in my family so I noticed his right away and had it clipped at the ped at only a few days old. I kept him on the shield though for a while cause he had to learn to use his tongue correctly, see babies suck and such even before they are born! So it takes them a while to learn to do it with out the extra skin now. I would try every other day or so with out the shield to see if he could do it yet, took a few weeks but now he is 6 weeks old and no longer needs the shield I don't think we have used it in about two weeks or so. But, it kind of kept him on right and with out hurting me till he got his tongue to working right. It's a muscle and has to be used and exercised to get it to work right after it's clipped. (I know this cause I was tongue tied too but they wouldn't clip it till I was 8, I had to actually do tongue exercises to learn to speak correctly! After it was clipped. Before that I had very limited speech. Cause my tie was so bad. But, they had stopped clipping at birth back then.) Any way I am waaaaaaaaay into just have it clipped it will help him in more ways then just nursing to have it correct! It's a lot easier to learn to speak etc with the correct tongue movement! Instead of having to relearn at 8 years old, I can tell ya. Also there is a book a woman is trying to write and still researching on WHY we need tongue clipping to be more routine again. And why it had stopped. When my dad was a baby they just did it at birth and it now that they don't it's having a huge impact on breastfeeding AND many other things as well not having them clipped. I would do some searches on the LLL magazine and see if you can find all the tongue tie articles and find the one about the book that is being written about it.

Really I would just get it done again. Not trying to push you, but just saying, I wish I had done it with DD1, but I kept believing the dr that she would outgrow it and would breastfeed etc. Makes me MAD at myself cause I should of known better, I didn't outgrow it! I didn't get better! So why did I listen to her stupid ped, I don't know. UHG! I should of listened to my mom, she was the one telling me to get a sheild and get the tongue clipped. Since then I have learned and I changed peds, and I get babies tongues clipped ASAP!

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

Re: Supply issues... I block fed until he was around 5 months old. I now feed on both sides usually, but sometimes still just one if he seems satisfied after.

GL I hope you can find a dentist or someone to help you out. I will say that my ENT told me many clips reattach. Luckily my son's didn't, and I noticed improvement on my right side in about 3-4 days, the left side took a couple weeks to really heal. Nursing wasn't completely pain free until around 2.5-3 months.

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

I notice your LLL ID. I am in Columbus Ohio and my daughter was born with a tongue tie that was clipped when she was a day old. I remember crying when she would latch on. Here in town there is a LC who is an expert on tongue tie. She is the inventor of the Hazelbaker finger feeder, which she uses to teach babies to suck properly after a tongue tie. If you are here I highly recommend contacting her. Her business is called Spirit of Healing. If you are in town and want the number I will post it.

Re: Poor latch, tongue tie, oversupply..

Originally Posted by @llli*lulamama

I notice your LLL ID. I am in Columbus Ohio and my daughter was born with a tongue tie that was clipped when she was a day old. I remember crying when she would latch on. Here in town there is a LC who is an expert on tongue tie. She is the inventor of the Hazelbaker finger feeder, which she uses to teach babies to suck properly after a tongue tie. If you are here I highly recommend contacting her. Her business is called Spirit of Healing. If you are in town and want the number I will post it.

The tongue tie was diagnosed by another LC who works at Spirit of Healing. We saw Alison Hazelbaker for one session of CST and it was horrible. I've never heard my baby cry like he did, and she did not communicate with me at all while this was going on. It was a really terrible experience, and I do not want to go back again. It's unfortunate because I was really hopeful when I found her since she is an "expert". Thanks for the suggestion, though! I hope you had a better experience with her.