If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: Question about being born again.

Originally Posted by thomasmind

I agree completely with you Roger. I do however see people as demons, and in your statement I see that you do too. But this is because of how people usually treat me and judge me without really knowing me. The question is how do you automatically assume that I do not believe according to Romans 10:9-10.13 ? You responded while I was writing to thank everyone, I guess, since I am judged as demon I am not saved even if I believe so much to know God is as real as the Earth and as it is not me doing the right thing but Jesus's will.

Thanks for straightening me out...

Originally Posted by thomasmind

Oh my, Thank you all of you for your responses!

I have learned so very much. I have to say that I understand everything that you are saying on one level or another, and now I understand truly what I have misunderstood about the term being born again. Perhaps the people in my life do simply not understand they have to believe, accept and let Jesus into their hearts. People try to be saved by doing good acts, but it is the fact that Jesus died for us that allows us to be saved, so if someone does not believe and just, does good acts to sort of like pass a test they are not saved. It is the grace of Jesus and our belief in him that shows us the way to acts of good, and not our own personal effort. I think I have always felt this but never really recognized it. I think I found Edgar Allen Poe’s class of fancies; in digging for this I think this might be the best way to describe what being born again actually means. You believe, Jesus shows you because you believe, you do good actions because of his will not your own, because you believe.

To expand upon this, if I told you I can do electrical work and you believe me, then I show you, it will be a reality and you would give my number to others to do work in their homes. If I tell you that I built this electrical panel and all of the lights work and everything I will still have to prove myself. Belief is the essential first step. Just saying, “yea he can do electrical work” and walking away with the knowledge that I can really does not mean much. If someone does not really truly and honestly believe in Jesus there is no way they can really dedicate themselves to his work because it is their own will that has to push it along.

I think the baptism thing is important as a symbol, because we need these things to mark new beginnings, if these symbols were not there; perhaps to many, there would be no real change, or understanding, or recognition of what has been given to us.

Also; since we could never understand the complexity of Jesus and God in this lifetime we can understand that Jesus and God are one; this makes an infinite complexity a bit more understandable, or that is how things work in Heaven. On this I also think that many things in the Bible need to be recognized as the fact that over two thousand years ago there were not words to describe many things, therefore things like ambiguity, symbolism, objectivity must be used for everyone to understand.

Pardon me but this post is gonna be another long post but I do think it is important since you have dedicated your time to help me.

If any of you have ever wondered if your actually doing Gods work, you all are. I have to say that as I have been reading over all of this stuff, and first confused it makes sense to me now. I do still have a few quirky beliefs left that will never go away because I think (no one knows) that our God is so complex we will never really understand so very many things. But I am coming to realize that perhaps I am a Christian. Because of the people in my life I have thought that no matter what I did there was no hope, they, preacher, and people that go to church every Sunday while I prayed in my home, were saved no matter what and I was not. So I just did things as I thought God would want me to do anyway, minus the drama, control, competition, and politics of human interaction. Now my hope has been restored in the fact that it is not that even if I do the right things I am still not wanted.

Most people reject me and tell me no matter what religion, and it is many, that I am lost. Not feeling wanted and alone is something that I have quite grown accustomed to. The only saving quality from it though is my ability for separation, which was a bitter gift from my adopted sister whom considered my not to be her brother when she found we were adopted. Because of this there is no reason to worry about forgiving people when they simply are not in my life making me miserable. Perhaps it has been a circle for me because from there people really have been a nasty bunch, so for most of my life I have been trying to find out the truth. I have spent many many many years asking for vision and wisdom, and though I have an ability to see people for who they really are I still want to really understand as much as my little brain can about God. The actions of people in my life have just prevented it until now.

I half heartedly expected my question to be answered by outrage and rejection as normally happens. Thank you for your understanding; and with your understanding I am now more understanding. I no longer feel quite as much of a total and complete outcast as I have felt all of my life.

God bless all of you!
Thank you!

Thomas

Thomas, I read here that your beliefs have changed (or are changing). It is important when you do decide that yes, Christ Jesus died that awful death on the cross and shed his blood for your sins (and mine, of course) and that he died and arose, and that you want him to be 'Lord' of your life..........and know that you are a Christian....then be sure to go and change it on your Profile Page, where it asks, "Are you a Christian?" You have there, "No, I am not a Christian."

"Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

Re: Question about being born again.

Originally Posted by notuptome

Well if you wish to judge then help yourself but what I said was that one must believe according to what Gods word reveals about Christ. I never said that people are demons, its just not there. The demons know full well Who Christ is but are not saved. Perhaps I misunderstood but it seemed that you were downplaying the vicarious death of Christ and playing up the works of righteousness that you have done.

Any man who is saved is saved by grace through faith and not by works. Grace cannot be earned and faith comes by hearing the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

just to touch on your last sentence, you are saved by grace through faith. just remember faith without works is dead.
will dead faith save you ?

Re: Question about being born again.

Originally Posted by fewarechosen

just to touch on your last sentence, you are saved by grace through faith. just remember faith without works is dead.
will dead faith save you ?

Works do not save nor can they keep you saved. We are created in Christ to do good works but the works flow from our salvation not into our salvation. Christ is all sufficient in the matter of salvation.

James is citing that if one is saved they will show forth the new life produced by the new creature who is in and of Christ. Saying you are saved and living like the devil is an evidence of false profession.

Re: Question about being born again.

Originally Posted by notuptome

Works do not save nor can they keep you saved. We are created in Christ to do good works but the works flow from our salvation not into our salvation. Christ is all sufficient in the matter of salvation.

James is citing that if one is saved they will show forth the new life produced by the new creature who is in and of Christ. Saying you are saved and living like the devil is an evidence of false profession.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

They just won't obey.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Re: Question about being born again.

Originally Posted by notuptome

Works do not save nor can they keep you saved. We are created in Christ to do good works but the works flow from our salvation not into our salvation. Christ is all sufficient in the matter of salvation. James is citing that if one is saved they will show forth the new life produced by the new creature who is in and of Christ. Saying you are saved and living like the devil is an evidence of false profession.

Amen Roger.

Originally Posted by John 8:32

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. They just won't obey. Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James 2:14, we read of one who says he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. James 2:18 - Show me your (alledged) faith without your works and I will show you my (genuine) faith by my works (James 2:18). Show, not establish.

Faith without works is dead, yet the source of life in our faith is not the works; rather, the life in our faith is the source of the works. Does a dead faith produce good works in order to become a living faith or because it's a living faith? Does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or because it's a living tree? What do good works demonstrate about our faith? What does good fruit demonstrate about a tree?

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also "believe" that there is "one God" but where in this passage does it say that demons believe or trust in the Savior sent for redemption? The faith of demons is only "mental assent." Their trust and reliance is in Satan, not in Jesus, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. This is why they do not obey Jesus.

Re: Question about being born again.

Originally Posted by david

Agreed. So would you say dunking in physical water is required still?

There is a spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 3:5; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5). Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. We also see this LIVING WATER in John 4:10,14.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Water baptism is not the reality, but is the picture of the reality. Water baptism is not the only "water" mentioned in Scripture. There is a spiritual application to water in Scripture as well: "washing of water by the word,' "washing of regeneration." This is not accomplished by H2O.

Re: Question about being born again.

Hi there

Umm, a couple things, I had mentioned them before, but it seems they became lost. I am not criticizing anyone, but I think it is important that when someone writes, we actually read it all. My example of what happens is when Roger responded to me telling me that I needed to believe as Romans 10:9-10, 13 after I stated that I believe that anything I have done in my life was not me but Jesus. That is actually Romans 10:3, but I did also state that, “ I accepted Jesus into my heart, mind, life, soul, being when I was being raised Catholic and did not know what being born again was.” I think perhaps the competition thing is kicking in a bit, my apologies for being honest about the time in my life when I came to realize Jesus is real. I am not here to compete with anyone. I am not competing with anything you believe, and I believe it is evil to boost oneself to raise self over others. This is not what I was doing. I am going through allot in my life, and since I have never really fit in anywhere, I am just trying to find a place where I can sort of fit in at least a little.

I do not believe in ladder society, this is what happens. I donate allot of flights in my airplane to religious functions. Though we never actually talk about anything but flying I like to give the gift of seeing the world from a different perspective especially to young people because it is seeing their joy I look for as my reward. Once I took 3 kids up and we received a call that an airplane had crashed. I asked them if they would like to help in finding it, and since they agreed we headed over and found the airplane. The following week I was at work and the president of the company I work for came over to me and said, “Hey did you hear about that airplane crash?” When I told him I found the airplane he said, “Yea that’s terrible, I am glad it was not you but that was the CEO of a company.” You can see now why I think if everyone in the world saw eachother as equal with Jesus above us it would be a better place. This equality is why I do not bother competing.

Sorry Roger you said, “You do well to believe these things but so do the demons” as a writer I read this, and as a complete sentence, me being a demon was exactly what you said. Sorry it is basic sentence structure, so being one complete thought per sentence makes me a demon in your eyes. I honestly do not have a problem with people thinking I am evil, about 99% of the people I know judge me harshly so I am very used to it. A few years ago I wrote an article about writers putting how they really are into writing and being able to feel exactly what they say by what they write. I guess it is what it is. Perhaps “I see what you are saying that you do the right thing. So you are aware; demons also say they do good acts.” That would separate me from them, but like I said, we write how we feel knowingly or not.

As far as the demon thing I do not believe demons are little monsters sitting on our shoulder. We all have free will, as I realize now, to accept Jesus into us so that he can do the right things in our lives through us, so Jesus can move us. When people hurt eachother again and again they mimic the writings in the Bible about demons and even other stories like vampires where they do not see themselves in the mirror because they are evil. People do not see what they do, they see what everyone else does. I believe that humans can be demons because humans do evil works and do not see it. Even when it is shown to them they continue to do them and reject the fact that when they hurt people or are thoughtless of them again and again, that is evil. I see running a light, changing lanes without seeing the car next to you as mistakes. I also see saying things mistakenly as mistakes. Evil is doing them again and again, or manipulating people over and over, or judging people over and over, these to me anyway are demonic qualities, and humans have these qualities. I am sure if I told the president of my company that I realized he was saying that that CEO had more of a right to live than I did because of his position in society he would have even forgotten what he said altogether to make it right to himself.

I do believe that when we accept Jesus into ourselves, he takes over and we do the right thing because this is what he is doing. I do not remember saying anything about doing good acts, but doing the right things to the best of my ability before I understood that it was not me doing the right thing it was Jesus. I did say however that I understand that anything good I do is what Jesus is doing through me, and that with the help of the wonderful people here I just became aware of this. I also thought it was clear that I was not doing the right thing to open the door of heaven. To clarify this more I wrote something when I was in high school, and I have lived by it. “Lord Jesus, I know you are here with me and all around me. I understand so very little of you, please show me. I want to do the right things to make you happy, and if at the end of my life I have done the wrong thing or the wrong way I will understand my judgment by you. If you decide that I cannot make you happy I will surrender my soul because your happiness is all that matters to me.” What I realized was that because Jesus is in my heart, doing the right thing is not my doing it is the work of Jesus. I thought I clearly stated that I now see that it was not me doing good the right thing, being faithful to my wife for over 24 years, and that it was actually Jesus that gets the credit. I am so totally good with that!

That should, again, clarify that I believe as it is written in all of Romans and not just 2 verses. I am sorry if Jesus did actually show me more, and I am also sorry that you might think I am competing, I could care less about competition. That is probably why I have never gotten into sports of any kind.

I also now understand about being baptized, God commands us to be baptized and with this we are doing what we are told. Since we are all children I have to agree that we need to be guided, all of us. God told us we need to be baptized of water so we must be baptized of water. Even if we do not know the reason in it's entirety, we must be baptized because we are told to. Thanks for the info I thought it was about symbolism to make it real for us, but as a commandment we need not understand it, we simply must do it.

Re: Question about being born again

Is my thought on this wrong that Jesus was born like an Angel and then born on Earth?

Jesus was born a man on earth, but He was never born as an angel in heaven. He has always existed.

Is Jesus telling us that to be born of water is that your born here on Earth, and born of spirit means that you have died?

I believe that being born of water is the physical birth, and born of the Spirit is a spiritual birth. Being born of the Spirit is the second birth or being born again. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Why do we need to born of the Spirit? Because we all were dead spiritually because of our sins. Ephesians 2:1 says that Jesus quickens us (makes us alive) even when we are dead in our sins.

When Paul says dead in our sins, he did not mean dead physically, he meant dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead means that we were cut off and separated from God, just as being physically dead means that we are separated from our body. So we were cut off and separated from God, and through the Grace of Christ we are brought back to God. In John 17:3, Jesus defines "eternal life" as knowing the Father and the One that He sent, ( Jesus). The word "know" means to know in a personal way, to have an intimate relationship with God. So we are born spiritually when we repent, ( turn to God from our sins ), ask God to forgive us, and trust Jesus who died for us and rose again. At this point we are born again or born from above and we become a new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

The old man, ( who we were before we believed), dies, and we become a new person, forgiven, set free, adopted into God's family, and on our way to heaven. We become new people because Jesus comes to live in us through the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit when we come to God for forgiveness and new life through faith in Christ.

This last part leads to my actual question. Is Jesus saying that things are so complex then when we die we are going to be as if we are born again, like babies, in need of Jesus to literally raise us in a place beyond this one?

We are not born again when we die physically, we are born again when we come to God, trusting Jesus for salvation, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Re: Question about being born again

Originally Posted by glad4mercy

Jesus was born a man on earth, but He was never born as an angel in heaven. He has always existed.

I believe that being born of water is the physical birth, and born of the Spirit is a spiritual birth. Being born of the Spirit is the second birth or being born again. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Why do we need to born of the Spirit? Because we all were dead spiritually because of our sins. Ephesians 2:1 says that Jesus quickens us (makes us alive) even when we are dead in our sins.

When Paul says dead in our sins, he did not mean dead physically, he meant dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead means that we were cut off and separated from God, just as being physically dead means that we are separated from our body. So we were cut off and separated from God, and through the Grace of Christ we are brought back to God. In John 17:3, Jesus defines "eternal life" as knowing the Father and the One that He sent, ( Jesus). The word "know" means to know in a personal way, to have an intimate relationship with God. So we are born spiritually when we repent, ( turn to God from our sins ), ask God to forgive us, and trust Jesus who died for us and rose again. At this point we are born again or born from above and we become a new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

The old man, ( who we were before we believed), dies, and we become a new person, forgiven, set free, adopted into God's family, and on our way to heaven. We become new people because Jesus comes to live in us through the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit when we come to God for forgiveness and new life through faith in Christ.

We are not born again when we die physically, we are born again when we come to God, trusting Jesus for salvation, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

A good example of the New Birth is found in Acts 9, with the conversion of Saul, ( who became Paul).

Thank you, I am aware of that now. We are born again and because of this Jesus rules our lives, therefore we do the right things because it is Jesus doing the right things through us. Without being born again of spirit we could never do the right things because only Jesus can do the right things in our lives.

Re: Question about being born again

Oh, also I did not say that what I read was that Jesus was born in heaven as an angel. I was making a humanly simplistic comparison that like angels Jesus was born in Heaven and descended to Earth, as like to ask if it was that God created Jesus and sent Jesus to save us and to teach us. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

Re: Question about being born again

Originally Posted by thomasmind

Thank you, I am aware of that now. We are born again and because of this Jesus rules our lives, therefore we do the right things because it is Jesus doing the right things through us. Without being born again of spirit we could never do the right things because only Jesus can do the right things in our lives.

Yes, it is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. First, He changes our affections and our desires to actually want to do the right things, then He empowers us to do them. The secret is to walk in the Spirit. ( see Galatians 5 starting in verse 16 and Romans 8). Just as we have received the Spirit, we must also walk in Him. How do we do this? Pray and read the Bible daily, fellowship with other Christians, and allow the Holy Spirit to guide and teach us. There are two principles that battle within every believer, the flesh, ( which is the old man) and the new man who has been born of the Spirit. We must follow after peace, righteousness, and holiness as the Holy Spirit directs us. We learn to recognize the Spirit's voice as we study the Bible prayerfully, as the Holy Spirit will never contradict the Word of God.

John 10: 27 = ( Jesus said) ...My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

God Bless.

1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

"My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

Re: Question about being born again

Originally Posted by thomasmind

Oh, also I did not say that what I read was that Jesus was born in heaven as an angel. I was making a humanly simplistic comparison that like angels Jesus was born in Heaven and descended to Earth, as like to ask if it was that God created Jesus and sent Jesus to save us and to teach us. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

Yes, I understood that it was only a comparison or analogy. My point was that Jesus was not created or born other than being born as a man. Before He was born as a man, Jesus existed eternally as God. As the Second person of the trinity, Jesus has no beginning and no end.He is eternal.

1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

"My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

Re: Question about being born again.

Originally Posted by John 8:32

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

They just won't obey.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I agree with these scriptures and with Eph 2:10 but it must be made clear that the works flow out from the salvation of the believer not into the salvation of the believer. Works cannot make or keep one saved. Only by grace can I be saved and be kept saved.

Re: Question about being born again

Originally Posted by glad4mercy

Yes, I understood that it was only a comparison or analogy. My point was that Jesus was not created or born other than being born as a man. Before He was born as a man, Jesus existed eternally as God. As the Second person of the trinity, Jesus has no beginning and no end.He is eternal.

I see, that does make perfect sense. The son of God would be eternal. Thanks