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I saw this film on cable tv a few days ago. I have never been a fan of rap, I couldn't name more than 5 rappers. I have never purchased a rap cd or downloaded or streamed a rap song. So I'm an expert on rap....lol

But I have always maintained there was skill involved, many people think there is not. You can watch the film below, but be warned, it's foul language all the way through, in fact I think the f bomb, is used more than the word...the

When my Helen was in hospital, I had time alone at home, and decided to have a go at doing a hip-hop /rap song, (the lyrics only) as that is what I do.

So I spent many many hours on the net, researching the structure of rap lyrics and how they are put together from a rhyming POV.

Like you I was never a fan of hip-pop or rap, and thought that it was just spoken words that had no cohesion.

How wrong I was...lol

Having written many song lyrics over the years to different rhyming schemes, I was surprised to discover how complex rhyming schemes in rap and hip-pop can be.

As an example, a verse from mine and Jackie's Christmas song, followed by the chorus, showing my typical rhyming schemes.

verse where the last words of the lines rhyme.. in pairs

An old man on a bench, smiles at passers-byChristmas spirit warms his heart, puts a sparkle in his eyeThe snow is falling now, his son comes into sightSits down beside his dad, to welcome in Christmas night

chorus where all the last words rhyme...

The Magic of Christmas is a wonderful thingRemembering the past, and the birth of a kingIt's not just the gifts, tied with ribbon and stringIt's family and friends and all the joy they bringThe Magic of Christmas is a wonderful thing

and a verse from the fireman, having a different scheme, but still the last words of line 2 and line 3 only need to rhyme.

His favorite toy, was a fire truckAnd he knew what he wanted to beSaid mum, when I'm a manI'll fight fires, and set people free..

Now to the hip-pop /rap rhyming schemes.

Not only do they usually have lines that rhyme with other lines, but also rhymes within lines.

verse 1 with rhymes in lines and rhymes of lines..

Sleeping in their bed, was the spider with her web Who plied a twisted thread, that got inside his head Looked so sweet laying there, indiscreet, she didn't care He'd just became aware, she'd had a love affair

verse 2 with rhymes in lines and rhymes of lines..

He was out of his zone, as he left on his own To sleep on concrete and stone, the street his new home Was a man to avoid, his world was a void Became unemployed, his ambition destroyed

and the rap verse in the song..

Life in a cell four by six, was a world of conflicts Saw some give out kicks, while others joined or made cliques He would never comply, or see eye to eye So the years didn't fly, was a sad, lonely guy

I did find it so much harder to write the double rhyme lines, but as an excersize thought it was fun... tough but fun.

anyway, just thought that I would mention this, if anyone is interested.

Hi Trent... The art of rap... ummm When my Helen was in hospital, I had time alone at home, and decided to have a go at doing a hip-hop /rap song, (the lyrics only) as that is what I do. So I spent many many hours on the net, researching the structure of rap lyrics and how they are put together from a rhyming POV. Like you I was never a fan of hip-pop or rap, and thought that it was just spoken words that had no cohesion. How wrong I was...lol Having written many song lyrics over the years to different rhyming schemes, I was surprised to discover how complex rhyming schemes in rap and hip-pop can be. As an example, a verse from mine and Jackie's Christmas song, followed by the chorus, showing my typical rhyming schemes. verse where the last words of the lines rhyme.. in pairs An old man on a bench, smiles at passers-by Christmas spirit warms his heart, puts a sparkle in his eye The snow is falling now, his son comes into sight Sits down beside his dad, to welcome in Christmas night chorus where all the last words rhyme... The Magic of Christmas is a wonderful thing Remembering the past, and the birth of a king It's not just the gifts, tied with ribbon and string It's family and friends and all the joy they bring The Magic of Christmas is a wonderful thing and a verse from the fireman, having a different scheme, but still the last words of line 2 and line 3 only need to rhyme. His favorite toy, was a fire truck And he knew what he wanted to be Said mum, when I'm a man I'll fight fires, and set people free.. Now to the hip-pop /rap rhyming schemes. Not only do they usually have lines that rhyme with other lines, but also rhymes within lines. verse 1 with rhymes in lines and rhymes of lines.. Sleeping in their bed, was the spider with her web Who plied a twisted thread, that got inside his head Looked so sweet laying there, indiscreet, she didn't care He'd just became aware, she'd had a love affair verse 2 with rhymes in lines and rhymes of lines.. He was out of his zone, as he left on his own To sleep on concrete and stone, the street his new home Was a man to avoid, his world was a void Became unemployed, his ambition destroyed and the rap verse in the song.. Life in a cell four by six, was a world of conflicts Saw some give out kicks, while others joined or made cliques He would never comply, or see eye to eye So the years didn't fly, was a sad, lonely guy I did find it so much harder to write the double rhyme lines, but as an excersize thought it was fun... tough but fun. anyway, just thought that I would mention this, if anyone is interested. here is the finished song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lBc9PM6fVs God Bless Roy and Helen

Pretty darn good first attempt at rap Roy. I agree the rhyme schemes get complicated. If it was just the rhyme, I'd say anyone could grab a rhyming dictionary and work from there. And alot of the content is just like, your mama jokes, I can do this thing and you can't, I'm cool and your not, I make ladies go crazy, etc etc etc

But the thing is if you are not from that culture, you think of it as stupid. You even think two guys talking to each other in the hood sound pretty stupid too, and the way they communicate is way different than us.

it's the rhymes, but also there is musicality to it. There is rhythm to your talking, there is the sound of your voice, a lot of syncopation, and lyrically alot of alliteration, and euphemisms, and hyperbole, I mean they use the same tools as poets and songwriters use.

And then there is the cool factor. Elvis had cool too. To be able to grab a mic and get people to pay attention. Not everybody has the ability to work a crowd, if you have ever played live, you know this

And the real impressive feature is when they can free style, it's no different than improvising on an instrument. So, while I simply don't like it, I can tip my hat to the talents needed to be good at it

Glad you enjoyed "Poppa", Trent. Since you mentioned Eminem, and I have my own issues with rap, but I assume you've seen the movie 8 Mile? It gave me a whole appreciation of freestyling after watching it years ago.

I'll hafta check out the links you've dropped, because, as you say, even if one doesn't enjoy the music(?), that doesn't mean ya can't appreciate the "art" and derned hard work that goes into it.

I tried my hand at writing a rap(mild) ONCE(it's beneficial to know one's limitations) while I was living in D.C. It was early at an open-mic and a young group had just rapped their way through 3 pieces. Since I was gonna be there for a while, I grabbed a handful of napkins and wrote this out and gave it to 'em before I left.

I never made it back to that open-mic and I doubt if they ever did anything with it, but it was a fun bit o' creative energy.

the tears of the mothers turn to salt in the guttersdown among the litter of discarded glass and sneakersspray painted epitaph no one has the last laughempty bed at midnight someone cries at first lightthat's the price you're gonna pay when you got another deal gone down.

empty space on porch swing voices in my head ringa limousine tomorrow weighted down with sorrowon a ride that lasts forever to a place that holds no pitywhere everyone is equal and each soul has a markerwith flowers to remember a child who once was smiling

each day is a season with no promise of a futureand the rhythm of the traffic blends with heartbeats of survivorswhile the tears of the mothers turn to salt in the gutterjust around the corner where everybody knowsthere's gonna be a price 'cause they got another deal goin' down.

But the thing is if you are not from that culture, you think of it as stupid. You even think two guys talking to each other in the hood sound pretty stupid too, and the way they communicate is way different than us.

it's the rhymes, but also there is musicality to it. There is rhythm to your talking, there is the sound of your voice, a lot of syncopation, and lyrically alot of alliteration, and euphemisms, and hyperbole, I mean they use the same tools as poets and songwriters use.

And then there is the cool factor. Elvis had cool too. To be able to grab a mic and get people to pay attention. Not everybody has the ability to work a crowd, if you have ever played live, you know this

And the real impressive feature is when they can free style, it's no different than improvising on an instrument. So, while I simply don't like it, I can tip my hat to the talents needed to be good at it

"And the real impressive feature is when they can free style, it's no different than improvising on an instrument."

Must agree. When in a venue a few weeks back, to see the main artist and on a ciggy break, out the front, courtesy of an extension lead was a three piece band playing jazz. Up walked 2 guys and started to rap with the trio. Just instinct. So the trio went into "cool beat" mode, and the rappers stole the show. Just improvised, but they looked around the small crowd and used Q's . i.e. big earrings, skinny jeans, dude smoking a cigarette etc. and made a story out of it for the ever increasing crowd.

We caught up with them later, while they were watching the main act, which was a rock guitar virtuoso.

REAL musicians don't have boundaries. It is only the inept and the musically incompetent that use their own limitations as a means to put others down.

When rap is done well, it rivals any lyrical art form.Probably exceeds most.

But talking emphatically to a meter is not nearly as difficult as singing well up through 2 octaves (or even into 3 for Martina McBride).

Hey Martin,

I'll give a nod to yer point....And thanks!!....

And I will respond with apples and oranges....

Oranges first: The Oranges are those few who are blessed with the vocal abilities to hit every high or low note....That ability is something that they are born to be able to do......It is, mostly about their "range"....Very rare and special and a "gift" that most don't possess...

Apples: "Talking emphatically to a meter"....Well, that is something that any common mortal can, and should, and ARE able to do...Dylan....Subterranean Homesick Blues:

Talking rhythmically to a meter is actually a skill and a natural talent versus something you are born with (a vocal range). Now, vocalists can dramatically improve control with lessons and practice etc. no doubt. But great opera singers are born. Rapping is certainly partially about having the right vocal control and inherent rhythm which many seem to be born with, but I have also known people with little natural rapping talent learn and practice and become top notch in the skill. If you aren't born with Opera range, or perfect pitch etc. you can't learn it or practice it without the built in ability you are born with.

It would be laughable to see the great opera singers attempt rapping. I highly doubt any, as disciplined as they are, could do it. Just as a top rapper is unlikely able to approach opera range. It really is Apples and Oranges and some prefer one, some prefer the other. I love them both.

Talking rhythmically to a meter is actually a skill and a natural talent versus something you are born with (a vocal range).

Reinforcing what has already been stated.... ...

Preface...I have respect for good rappers. 60 minutes did a segment on M&M years ago and it was real clear that he and people like him have a very real talent with words and a mind that can store them up and improvisationally flow them out in a coherent continuous stream on demand. Marco Rubio wishes he had that depth of talent.

But...When I used to take my songwriting hobby to studios, I found that the hardest people to get what I needed from were vocalists...so, to avoid the pain...I started learning to sing myself. I don't know what my range is but it is very limited. Working within those limitations and basically singing to pitch with a little bit of stylization has taken me years and is sadly still a hopelessly lacking work in progress.

Yet, I contend that I could have become proficient at talking to a meter after a one weekend seminar.

After a little practice and technique honing over a few months my life as a White rapper would all come down to natural timbre and having or not having the "it" factor. To that extent it seems a natural talent.

Admittedly, that's the view of an uncredentialed, unschooled (in music) , never paid his musical dues and don't intend to start....amateur hobbyist internet songwriting forum lurker. (though passionate ) But I think it's reasonably well founded and realistic.

Talking rhythmically to a meter is actually a skill and a natural talent versus something you are born with (a vocal range).

Beg to differ...

Preface...I have respect for good rappers. 60 minutes did a segment on M&M years ago and it was real clear that he and people like him have a very real talent with words and a mind that can store them up and improvisationally flow them out in a coherent continuous stream on demand. Marco Rubio wishes he had that depth of talent.

But...When I used to take my songwriting hobby to studios, I found that the hardest people to get what I needed from were vocalists...so, to avoid the pain...I started learning to sing myself. I don't know what my range is but it is very limited. Working within those limitations and basically singing to pitch with a little bit of stylization has taken me years and is sadly still a hopelessly lacking work in progress.

Yet, I contend that I could have become proficient at talking to a meter after a one weekend seminar.

After a little practice and technique honing over a few months my life as a White rapper would all come down to natural timbre and having or not having the "it" factor. To that extent it seems a natural talent.

Admittedly, that's the view of an uncredentialed, unschooled (in music) , never paid his musical dues and don't intend to start....amateur hobbyist internet songwriting forum lurker. (though passionate ) But I think it's reasonably well founded and realistic.

Martin

You said you beg to differ, then went on to agree with my point basic point, singers are born with it and rapping is a combination of skill learned and practiced along with rhythm and tonality (and as you pointed out, the ability to put strings of thoughts together on the fly, though not all rapping is spur of the moment, some top rappers are better in the studio writing out the rhymes and then riffing off of them in live performances, but I do know many who can rap instantly on any subject. For that matter I know musicians who can do the same thing, one of the best in the world at that is a friend of mine who gets hired to do improv music all over the world on the topics and events of their choice, but that's another discussion). So I don't know what else to add. Singers with great range and perfect pitch are born with it, Opera singers being the most extreme examples. Rappers, who can benefit from natural ability as well, use learned and developed skills through practice and even someone without the same natural gifts as some can learn and practice and find success that way. The skill of improv thinking and word play isn't unique to any genre (or even music for that matter) so it's a bit of a different subject.

Opera singers work on their breathing, and diaphragmatic control daily. They study and practice for years, and continue building their sound for life, They study voice and music for years, if not decades.

They are born with the talent, and the tools, but greatness is not reached until they put in the time.

Not many pop or country or rock singers can sing like opera singers either. Doesn't devalue what those artists can do.

Why compare rap to other art forms? Sure the entry into rap may be easier than others, not needing to learn an instrument, or understand music theory, gives you a very big head start, but one thing is one thing, another is another.

Paul McCartney can't dance like Prince, but who was asking Paul to dance?

As was said, apples and oranges.

It requires vocal talent and a sense of rhythm to rap. It requires the ability to speak clearly and enunciate, no matter how fast the words may be coming out. It requires street cred, and an ability to resonate with people with similar surroundings. And many aspects of rapping are inborn, great diction, and articulation, for two. If you talk like you have marbles in your mouth, you will never be a great rapper.

one other interesting thing about the film, was the explanation of how hip hop came around. The music programs were being cut in inner cities, so they had to come up with their own art form that didn't require musical instruments. They made turntables into an instrument, and started using rhymes and rhythm to create music.

Opera singers work on their breathing, and diaphragmatic control daily. They study and practice for years, and continue building their sound for life, They study voice and music for years, if not decades.

They are born with the talent, and the tools, but greatness is not reached until they put in the time.

Not many pop or country or rock singers can sing like opera singers either. Doesn't devalue what those artists can do.

Why compare rap to other art forms? Sure the entry into rap may be easier than others, not needing to learn an instrument, or understand music theory, gives you a very big head start, but one thing is one thing, another is another.

Paul McCartney can't dance like Prince, but who was asking Paul to dance?

As was said, apples and oranges.

It requires vocal talent and a sense of rhythm to rap. It requires the ability to speak clearly and enunciate, no matter how fast the words may be coming out. It requires street cred, and an ability to resonate with people with similar surroundings. And many aspects of rapping are inborn, great diction, and articulation, for two. If you talk like you have marbles in your mouth, you will never be a great rapper.

one other interesting thing about the film, was the explanation of how hip hop came around. The music programs were being cut in inner cities, so they had to come up with their own art form that didn't require musical instruments. They made turntables into an instrument, and started using rhymes and rhythm to create music.

Nothing to sneeze at.

Keep in mind that you can't be taught perfect pitch or opera range. To reach full potential, anything takes practice, but without those types of "born with" skills (especially top end range) all the practice won't matter. Rap, on the other hand, can be approximated at a very high level including hit song success through learning and practice. "No one who is tone deaf or who has limited vocal range can simply practice their way into 5+ octave range for example. For example Springsteen won't be singing opera no matter how much he practices, perhaps contrary to your belief... which is it... oh yeah... TerranceG (any relation to Ali G?) Don't worry, it's rhetorical.

I wrote a piece intended to be a rap, but I found I couldn't pull it off. About a third of the way through it I become Porky Pig and can't get the words out or keep the flow going. Here is the piece about the Princess and the Frog.

Frog appears in the spring, lonely now he starts to sing. Princess hears, by the stream, misty eyes her teardrops gleam. His lonely calls makes her heart ache, when love is blind, a risk we take. With keen and peering eyes...the Princess at the stream he spies, He sees her blowing chestnut hair...that waves and flows with graceful flair, Both heart and legs at leaping pace, he cannot wait to see her face, His appetite and hunger whets with every tiny glimpse he gets, She walks up to the water's brink and then she stoops, to take a drink. He stands at last with her alone but freezes fast upon a stone. Now with a start his knees grow weak, his pounding heart won't let him speak. He feels the aches her form creates; his eyes affixed no breath he takes. He looks at her and wonders how a creature such as he sees now, With graceful moves, his senses please and touch them all with gentle ease. She rises up, and sees the frog and drops her cup down on a log. He picks it up and kneels to fill the loving cup he caused to spill. Still on his knees he sees her eyes so soft and fixed with mutual ties. Growing feelings bid them touch, as hand meets hand in trembling clutch, She kneels before him, cheek to cheek, and kisses him AT PASSION'S PEAK! Frog transformed, the legends say, he reappeared a prince to stay, But truth is told in history's log, of one crazy girl, and one lucky frog.

You said you can't be taught Perfect Pitch. You can. This course was around long before the internet became what it is now. The guy who created it explains exactly how it works. A process that actually makes a lot of sense, but does take work and practice - just like anything else in music.

Originally Posted by niteshift

Brian, I think he's pulling your leg. .... well, I hope he is. Geez, just imagine the tone deaf folks who will now "think" they can pitch, because of an online course.

I held off before jumping in again after Jody's post...T'wasn't easy:-)

The bottom line? Everyone is right!!!

If I may?

"Perfect pitch" CAN be taught, with a whole ton of effort to those of us who were born "tone deaf"....I am one of them!

But a multi-octave-vocal-range is something that one has to be born with...My Spousal Unit has it and got her "Bachelors College Degree" by singing operas in 5 different languages...And in the process, lost of her joy in singing, because EVERY NOTE, and EVERY WORD(in the various languages) had to be perfect....

As for me? I was born tone-death and with a speech impediment...My "speech impediment"? It all came down to me hearing sounds come in through my ears, but not being able to get them right when they came out of my mouth....

Jody is correct, you CAN learn perfect pitch. There is one caveat though. Its not called perfect pitch when you learn it, its called relative pitch, when its inborn its called perfect pitch. But the end result is the same, can you indentfty this middle c? why yes, I can

I would never buy this program simply cause I dont think i need it, but it can be learned, if you'd like to become a musician's musician

There arent that many practical uses for having perfect pitch, or relative pitch.

One glaring use would be when you are at the guitar shop, and as usual, the guitars on the wall are out of tune, and you want to play it. Knowing exactly what your low E or High E, or any of the 5 strings should sound like, helps you tune it. Or having to tune a guitar anywhere when you dont have a pitch fork or tuner. Although not many people tune by ear any more anyway. its all tuners.

Perfect pitch obviously helps you sing in tune, also helps cover bands hear recordings better, so they can learn what part they need to play. I suppose it would help in a live setting, where you are asked to join a band on stage, and being able to reproduce what they are doing on the spot.

Not sure why the extreme example of being "Tone Deaf" and this course helping them, is the argument though?

Nobody tone deaf should be doing anything in music, period. This is for musicians who want to sharpen their ears, and improve themselves as musicians. Great musicians can still want to learn perfect pitch.

Nobody made the argument that talent, and range, and pitch weren't essential. The only argument made was that no matter how gifted you are, you have to work hard to be great.

The music business is filled with average, ordinarily talented people who worked their tail off...

Jody is correct, you CAN learn perfect pitch. There is one caveat though. Its not called perfect pitch when you learn it, its called relative pitch, when its inborn its called perfect pitch. But the end result is the same, can you indentfty this middle c? why yes, I can

Unfortunately this is an incorrect definition what Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch are. Perfect Pitch is also termed as Absolute Pitch, the ability to know a pitch without another reference pitch. Relative Pitch is the ability to determine the relative distance between a known pitch and another pitch.

That's debatable Jody. If you learn it, you are always referencing other pitches. You cant learn to have perfect pitch no more than you can learn to have blue eyes. But you can learn to do the same exact thing somebody who has perfect pitch can do which is to identify notes

I took interval training in high school music class, those annoying tones that sound like telphone buttons. what interval is this.... ahhh a 5th?

The teacher explained she never had it, I never had it, and that only a tiny percentage of people actually do have perfect pitch, although many claim they do. its rare, but you dont learn ability, you learn how to use ability.

but you can learn to do the same thing somebody else has an easier time with, identify pitch

That's debatable Jody. If you learn it, you are always referencing other pitches. You cant learn to have perfect pitch no more than you can learn to have blue eyes. But you can learn to do the same exact thing somebody who has perfect pitch can do which is to identify notes

You can debate it all you want, there's a difference between the "color" of a pitch compared to the relative distance between notes. How do you know you can't develop Absolute Pitch/Perfect Pitch? Have you ever tried? If you have, why is it that your failure = failure for everyone?

Does it matter if someone can learn to hear pitch color, i.e. absolute pitch? Why are you so against it? I never understood why people who don't have it/develop it are so against it. Is it because they don't understand it?

Originally Posted by niteshift

Just wondering when someone with perfect pitch meets a band that has tuned up/down by a fraction. Does it drive them nuts ?

Put it this way, notes sound the same to someone with Absolute Pitch as they do with someone who hasn't developed it. Colors have a range of spectrum, but most blue hues are still blue hues to people that recognize colors. Its a range. Much like pitch and what frequency things are tuned to. Which means Absolute Pitch isn't like A is always 440, but rather a range around it.

As a little history to tuning, it wasn't until humans developed tuners where concert pitch actually stopped slowly getting more sharp, or rather higher in Hertz for A. Mozart's A isn't technically the same frequency A that we have today.

Interesting about range of pitch. I had an old upright piano made in 1909. Got a piano tuner in, and I was commenting on its "full" sound. He said that was because the strings don't hold properly and are slightly "off" relative to each other even when tuned.

On the other side, similar I guess trying to pitch shift backing vocals to create harmonies... too perfect.

I like being vocally imperfect. In fact I'm so imperfect I'm a legend in my own lunchtime.

Interesting about range of pitch. I had an old upright piano made in 1909. Got a piano tuner in, and I was commenting on its "full" sound. He said that was because the strings don't hold properly and are slightly "off" relative to each other even when tuned.

On the other side, similar I guess trying to pitch shift backing vocals to create harmonies... too perfect.

I like being vocally imperfect. In fact I'm so imperfect I'm a legend in my own lunchtime.

I first heard rap in early 1981. since then it has been my experience that rap is worthless garbage and unworthy to be called "art". I've yet to hear anything artful about it. the very best rappers write at a mediocre level. and that's being generous. without violence, sex and profanity, they would vanish. it may require skill to talk really fast, just as it requires skill to eat eighty hot dogs in sixty seconds, but that's not art. Rappers are little more than pornographic auctioneers. Those that praise rappers rarely quote their work. They can't...it's awful. I just read the review of Kendrick Lamar's new cd on AllMusic.com. AllMusic is generally trustworthy. go to the site and read the glowing review for yourself. I think they quoted one line. It's trash.

In the early nineties, Ry Cooder was interviewed by Musician magazine for an article about Robert Johnson. Ry pointed out that these days people are put on a pedestal for doing nothing. (Compared to Johnson) Nothing fits that description better than rappers.

I first heard rap in early 1981. since then it has been my experience that rap is worthless garbage and unworthy to be called "art". I've yet to hear anything artful about it. the very best rappers write at a mediocre level. and that's being generous. without violence, sex and profanity, they would vanish. it may require skill to talk really fast, just as it requires skill to eat eighty hot dogs in sixty seconds, but that's not art. Rappers are little more than pornographic auctioneers. Those that praise rappers rarely quote their work. They can't...it's awful. I just read the review of Kendrick Lamar's new cd on AllMusic.com. AllMusic is generally trustworthy. go to the site and read the glowing review for yourself. I think they quoted one line. It's trash.

In the early nineties, Ry Cooder was interviewed by Musician magazine for an article about Robert Johnson. Ry pointed out that these days people are put on a pedestal for doing nothing. (Compared to Johnson) Nothing fits that description better than rappers.

And yet using your own source AllMusic, which you say "generally trustworthy" gives N.W.A's nasty Gangsta Rap Album Straight Outta Compton, which is among the most vile of all successful Gangsta Rap ever gets... wait for it... 5 out of 5 stars and users seem to agree with their assessment. But hey, don't let facts get in your way when you're hating. So big deal, you're a bitter guy who hates music never meant to please you (nor should any music try to please people... love it or hate it, who cares what any one person thinks, everyone dislikes something that others consider brilliant). I don't even care for their stuff, but it's so easy to disprove your opinion with your own source, I couldn't resist. There's plenty of other 5 star rap albums, but who has the time. http://www.allmusic.com/album/straight-outta-compton-mw0000653426

Oh and Ry Cooders album from the same era, (he had some poorly rated soundtracks in 1988) 1987's Get Rhythm rated 3 Stars on All Music (though his legion of fans liked it better). Different Strokes.

Brian, I think your reading skills are fading. I know critics praise rap. That was my point as well as why I quoted Ry Cooder. They praise rappers for doing little more than yelling poorly written obscenities over mechanized sound fx.

If you feel I'm giving rappers a bad rap, by all means, quote some of their work, post links to their melodies and musicianship.. but you can't do that for the same reason critics can't...it doesn't exist. Time magazine's list of the 100 best albums has plenty of rap records from the 80s, 90s and beyond. Read the reviews. They rarely quote the lyrics and when they do, the lines are ridiculous.

You can't disprove my arguments with substance, all you can do is attack my character by calling me "bitter". I'm extremely proud of my work...I just finished my first novella at the age of 51. I've been happily married for nearly 30 years, own ten acres and two houses. Bitter? Please, When I was 13 I never thought I'd have it so good.

Ry Cooder has had a career lasting over 50 years...so yes, he's released plenty of bad albums. He was also a child prodigy who was playing with the Rising Sons as a teen. As a multi-instrumentalist he played on seminal albums by The Stones, Little Feat, Captain Beefheart, The Doobie Brothers and others. He's a superb musician, which is why he was interviewed about Robert Johnson instead of Flavor Fave.

I don't know what you mean when you say rap wasn't created for me. How do you know? You don't even know who I am. And who it's created for is an irrelevant dodge. Rap is just plain garbage.

The experience and enjoyment of art is a rather subjective thing. There is no real way to "quantify" other than to rely on critics to find some kind of consensus that way. But Robert, you've found a way to defy even the critics by elevating your opinion to the only one that counts!

Prince really liked Kendrick Lamar; so do I. I can hear black music history in his work. James Brown, Marvin Gaye, Sly Stone, George Clinton, Prince--it's all in there..I connect to it because I can hear the source and I appreciate his Beck-like pastiche kind of funk. I am not thinking "this is not art!" when I listen, but just listening and enjoying something I understand just enough to appreciate quite a bit.

Rap is meaningful to many people, whether you want to call it art or not. We all have slightly different understands of what "art" is. Is your definition better than mine? Does the opinion/definition of a kid who lives in the ghetto count? Is the opinion of "what art is" formed by democratic consensus, or by demagogic autocracy?

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/25/1709:25 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choiceFortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)from the song "Songs of Love"from the album "Casanova" (1996)

Nowhere did I elevate my views above anyone else's or say that only mine counted. And defying critics is nothing earth shattering. Regarding rap, there's not much to defy with critics. As I mentioned, the AllMusic review of Lamar praises him without ever being specific why. The line they quoted was terrible. That's been the standard with rap since the early 90s.

I saw a review of Lamar's last cd that praised it for containing a history of jazz, blues and soul. They provided a clip. The "history of jazz" was Lamar rapping in a monotone over a drum program and a sample of a jazz trumpet. Wow.

I have nothing against him personally...I had just read the AM review before seeing this post. It's been my experience with his music that he can't write, sing or play.

I've had this discussion many, many times before. Here's what will happen...people will demean my character rather than just doing what should be easy for a forty year old "art" form...just quote a well written lyric or post a link to a well composed melody.

Okay, alright..though it's good to actually hear you say it. You've never actually ever said, "I believe that.." or "in my opinion.." but always made strong declarative statements; it felt good to hear you say actually say "yes these are just my opinions" for once, so I'm glad I got you to clarify.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way..

Your "argument" isn't that rap is not art, I hope, cuz that's totally refutable in 99% of the definitions of art, that go something like this:

Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions and intellect.

I think what you mean is that you don't think that much rap makes good art, deeming it "unworthy," perhaps forgetting that people of different cultures might find some things "worthy" that you with your background don't?

The gist..yes, it can be vile and violent, but it is "culturally and psychologically invaluable."

If Martians had music, we'd probably think it crap, as well, but it would probably be because it was so foreign to us that we just didn't "get it." I think that maybe that's happening here with you and rap, Robert. You are judging it from a baseline of Dylan and perhaps Gaye, and if you do that it's like saying "this apple's no good cuz it's not more orange-like."

I just know that I, personally, am not one to judge rap music. But people who's opinion I trust do like some .

Anyway, I'm tired, and Bates Motel is over and I'm sad.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 04/26/1703:58 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choiceFortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)from the song "Songs of Love"from the album "Casanova" (1996)

Well, I few years ago my number one grandson liked rap music, maybe he still does. eminem was hot at the time. On the other hand either MAB or me said don't mention Rap and Music in the same sentence! I think someone decided they are incompatiable!

Leave me out of this discussion. I don't really say a lot about rap at all because I just don't care for rapid fire lyrics, and repetitive drum loops. So I am no one to even include in any of these discussions.

@ Jody, the response was neither in favor nor against learning or trying to learn perfect pitch

You presented a challenge to the given definition of perfect pitch.

Your definition is correct, but the other definition given was a "in a nutshell" one

If you learn relative pitch, or even perfect pitch (if possible), you still dont have perfect pitch, you acquired the skill.

* somebody with 20/20 vision has naturally perfect vision. Somebody who has 20/40 does not have perfect vision, but he can see perfectly when givenglasses (training). The end result is both people can see 20/20, just one person has it naturally. The person wearing glasses can never say they have perfect vision

Im 100% in favor of a musician or songwriter doing anything they feel will make them better. If I thought it would make me a better songwriter Id do it.

I dont have perfect pitch, but Im a pretty darned good hearing musician, I have musicians ears according to an audiologist who did a work up on me one time when I thought I damaged my hearing at a loud concert. I hear most music reasonably well. I find listening to other musicians and music to be more useful than doing pitch training.

I dont see perfect pitch as being very meaningful. There is not alot you can do with it, and you can be a crap musician with perfect pitch, or a great musician without perfect pitch

But if you feel you can learn perfect pitch, give it a shot! Nothing wrong with that

Couchgrouch, you won't get a big argument about this from me. I don't like rap, never have, but there is skill involved.

If not, anyone would go and do it, and make millions. I can understand why real musicians sometimes scoff at it, but this is on par with classical and jazz snobs who scoff at pop and rock, thinking that it's not real music or not requiring talent, which is absurd. Let's see how successful Pavarotti would have been as lead singer for the stones...answer, not very.

Is rap high art? Hell no, but this debate about art has been going on forever. Are the sex pistols art? Are the Ramones art? Are all those barely musician garage bands of the 60's and beyond art? Ala Louie Louie..... Wooly bully etc.

My answer is yes it is art, it's a form of self expression, so it's art. High art, no, but art nonetheless.

I'm guessing you'd rather listen to Louie Louie or God Save The Queen, so would I, but that's probably more because I like rock and don't like rap.

The Ramones put a smile on my face, I think they were the best nonsense band of all time.

But if you want to argue about the content, and the exploitation, and the language, you will probably win that one. I don't have much use for rap, I simply don't get it

"tanell59" is no one other than another "incarnation", somewhere around the 87th, of Bugsey The Troll....

It is truly a shame, because the person has a lot to offer...And he has been sent numerous PM's asking asking him to simply "sign-in" as a real person...But he refuses....

So....Take his comments for what you can get out of them, but please don't think that you are responding to a person who goes by a single name:

BugseyTrent BToby BarnesBen JonesDesire Inspiress-whateverJames......And whatever incarnations since the board got updated and new members could join....He keeps signing up under, at last count, 87 different aliases....

They are ALL the same dude.....Pontificating....Often responding to his own posts under different names....

It is a shame, because he has a lot to offer, but prefers to remain a troll...

The only emails he may gotten were from folks from thisvery board telling him to sign back up. He hadn't in years up to a few months ago. Seemingly many like the entertainment and like what he has to say

he probably responds to " his own" threads, because before he can add a new comment, I he gets banned and not allowed to finish his posts. If he wasnt banned, I'm guessing he would have the same name.

It is a shame, he thinks there are some good people here, he doesn't think it matters, what user name makes a point, if the point is accurate, that's fine.

Im not sure the people here get enough credit for knowing who the poster is, it's not like he changes his point of view or opinions, and is very consistent.

He also wonders how a troll is somebody who talks about music and posts music and songs, but somebody who just hangs around and doesn't talk music is not a troll

He also feels it should be obvious, just listen to the music, does he sound like Toby Barnes?