Lavaros wrote:Gajeel was able to hurt Rogue after using Iron Shadow Dragon mode, where before he wasn't able to hit him because he'd turn intangible. Considering Natsu was later able to grip on to Atlas Flame it's possible that Natsu could hurt Ace even in his fire form.

Because he was able to learn Rogue's Shadow Dragon Slayer Magic, which allowed him to enter shadows just like Rogue and touch him. Being able to grab fire because he's able to manipulate it doesn't mean he's hurting Ace. It's still not his true body, and again Ace can just turn solid if Natsu tries to grab his fire anyway

"Maybe nothing in this world happens by accident. As everything happens for a reason, our destiny slowly takes form..."

Lavaros wrote:Gajeel was able to hurt Rogue after using Iron Shadow Dragon mode, where before he wasn't able to hit him because he'd turn intangible. Considering Natsu was later able to grip on to Atlas Flame it's possible that Natsu could hurt Ace even in his fire form.

Because he was able to learn Rogue's Shadow Dragon Slayer Magic, which allowed him to enter shadows just like Rogue and touch him. Being able to grab fire because he's able to manipulate it doesn't mean he's hurting Ace. It's still not his true body, and again Ace can just turn solid if Natsu tries to grab his fire anyway

He straight up pulls Rogue out of the shadows at one point though, in Gajeel's own physical form.

It seems to me that Dragon Slayers using a certain "element" are more than capable of interacting with those elements like they were physical objects, so I still wouldn't say it's unreasonable for Natsu to be able to hurt Ace in his Fire form.

And I mean, if Ace turned physical, Natsu could punch him easily then, couldn't he? I guess that's an "odd" part to this match though, that Ace kinda needs to flip between being physical and not. One way Natsu's always gonna be eating him, and the other way Natsu's able to punch him,

Grand Blazer wrote:He straight up pulls Rogue out of the shadows at one point though, in Gajeel's own physical form.

He pulled him out of the shadows when they were both in shadow states. Not that it matters. Gajeel countered Rogue's powers by learning them himself similar to how Natsu learned Laxus' lightning magic. Even after gaining a power up from Atlas Flame, Natsu has never shown the ability to turn into flames or hurt people who can do so, so this point of comparing Natsu to Gajeel makes little sense

It seems to me that Dragon Slayers using a certain "element" are more than capable of interacting with those elements like they were physical objects, so I still wouldn't say it's unreasonable for Natsu to be able to hurt Ace in his Fire form.

All we've seen Natsu do in this regard was "touch" Atlas Flame as though he were a solid object...and Natsu still wasn't hurting him. In this scenario, the flames Natsu would be grabbing are not Ace's real body, so Ace would not be harmed by a fire manipulator simply touching a part of his body turned into fire

And I mean, if Ace turned physical, Natsu could punch him easily then, couldn't he? I guess that's an "odd" part to this match though, that Ace kinda needs to flip between being physical and not. One way Natsu's always gonna be eating him, and the other way Natsu's able to punch him,

Not really. Natsu punches Ace, Natsu's fist goes through Ace while the rest of him is solid, Ace knocks him the hell out. That's the way Logias have always been. They don't have to completely turn into their element in order to become unaffected by attacks. This is the point that people seem to be having a hard time getting. Ace has all the advantages in a melee fight due to superior stats advantage in addition to being completely immune to physical attacks

"Maybe nothing in this world happens by accident. As everything happens for a reason, our destiny slowly takes form..."

@9:50 we see them clashing in shadow form and @10:15 we see Gajeel use his physical hand to pull Rogue out of the shadows

The fact that Gajeel and Rogue are fighting while in Shadow form shows that they can hurt each other because of their ability to manipulate shadows.

Both dragon slayers have shown to be able to touch/interact with a living form of the element they can manipulate. That's the reasoning behind the Gajeel and Natsu comparison, because it works.

metabro wrote:All we've seen Natsu do in this regard was "touch" Atlas Flame as though he were a solid object...and Natsu still wasn't hurting him. In this scenario, the flames Natsu would be grabbing are not Ace's real body, so Ace would not be harmed by a fire manipulator simply touching a part of his body turned into fire.

I think you're kind of exaggerating the way Atlas was feeling during that fight. He wasn't just "annoyed" the entire fight, Natsu was eating him and he was genuinely surprised and angered by it, and the longer Natsu ate him, his anger/surprise soon turned into fear because he compared Natsu eating his flames to that of the fire dragon Igneel himself.

Atlas compares Natsu's fire eating to that of the dragon king himself.

Natsu is touching Ace in this fight, no ifs ands or buts about it. He's not "going through Ace" when he can physically touch fire.

metabro wrote:Not really. Natsu punches Ace, Natsu's fist goes through Ace while the rest of him is solid, Ace knocks him the hell out. That's the way Logias have always been. They don't have to completely turn into their element in order to become unaffected by attacks. This is the point that people seem to be having a hard time getting.

Blackbeard outright calls out Ace for not being used to getting physically hit by attacks.

Even with his fight against Jimbei, he still used fire against him. The fight starts off with him using fire, and I'm pretty sure that fight happened the way it did to show how stubborn Ace was and why him being guided by Whitebeard changed all that.

I can give Ace experience because he is older than Natsu, but as with all cases of experience, that goes out the drain when you fight a person with abilities you've never encountered before-

Natsu touching and eating fire being some of them.

Ace may not need to turn full into fire like you said, but Natsu can still eat and touch the part of fire he becomes. Natsu isn't going to fully consume Ace, mind you, that I can concede to, but he can still eat Ace's flame body, making Ace to switch up his strategy.

By then it'll already be too late.

metabro wrote:Ace has all the advantages in a melee fight due to superior stats advantage in addition to being completely immune to physical attacks

That's if you give Ace scaling to feats that happened years after his death.

Which they don't.

Natsu without scaling and with what's been shown is superior in stats to Ace. With scaling this goes further beyond what Ace is capable of.

But I mean, at this point, we're basically saying the exact opposite thing in favor of the character we're supporting so..

@9:50 we see them clashing in shadow form and @10:15 we see Gajeel use his physical hand to pull Rogue out of the shadows

The manga shows a shadowy hand grabbing Rogue while he's infused in the shadows. Looks like a contradiction from the anime, so the manga takes precedence. Not that it matters because...

The fact that Gajeel and Rogue are fighting while in Shadow form shows that they can hurt each other because of their ability to manipulate shadows.

Both dragon slayers have shown to be able to touch/interact with a living form of the element they can manipulate. That's the reasoning behind the Gajeel and Natsu comparison, because it works.

...they share the same special powers, which allows them to nullify each other's intangibility. Natsu can manipulate fire, but you can't say that he can harm a fire elemental just because he shares that same control over fire as them without indisputable proof. The only time Natsu met such a character he couldn't do anything but annoy him until the power of friendship won him over. You can't compare Gajeel to Natsu

I think you're kind of exaggerating the way Atlas was feeling during that fight. He wasn't just "annoyed" the entire fight, Natsu was eating him and he was genuinely surprised and angered by it, and the longer Natsu ate him, his anger/surprise soon turned into fear because he compared Natsu eating his flames to that of the fire dragon Igneel himself.

Frankly, you're completely misrepresenting the scene to the point where it's almost dishonest. Watch it again

>Natsu lands on Atlas Flame>Natsu starts eating Atlas Flame>Atlas Flame is unamused and calls it nonsense>Atlas Flame gets annoyed and tries to throw Natsu off and tells him to not try and anger him>Atlas Flame gets a feeling from Natsu that reminds him of Igneel, his good friend>They stop fighting and become friends

Nothing about the scene says Atlas Flame felt anything but annoyance and frustration while trying to get Natsu off his back. He was never harmed nor did he ever felt fear. He only stopped fighting Natsu when he realized Natsu's connection to his king and close friend

Natsu is touching Ace in this fight, no ifs ands or buts about it. He's not "going through Ace" when he can physically touch fire.

He will be touching Ace's fire, not his real body. I do not know how many times I have to repeat this. At best the Atlas Flame "fight" just showed Natsu can touch fire as though it's solid, which is consistent to what we've seen him do in the rest of the series. But that's not Ace's real body he would be grabbing, just fire that Ace can almost limitlessly create and that he can regenerate from

Blackbeard outright calls out Ace for not being used to getting physically hit by attacks.

This is more of an indication of Ace being really really good at avoiding hits from strong New World pirates and Blackbeard being that good of a fighter with a very hax ability than anything. And " a while" could mean anything. That doesn't necessarily mean he has never been hurt by a Haki user or someone since receiving his Flame Flame Fruit

Ace is not going to stop using his fire in this fight, even in fights where it's shown not to matter, Ace still uses them.

He didn't stop using his fire abilities against Blackbeard because they DID matter in that fight. Your scan proves this

Blackbeard's Dark Dark Fruit is a Logia type, but it is also the only known Logia that does not let the user turn into its element. Blackbeard can use his powers to temporarily turn off a Devil Fruit's powers (particularly a Logia's intangibility), but Ace could still hurt him with his fire. It makes perfect sense for Ace to keep using fire attacks against a guy with these abilities

Even with his fight against Jimbei, he still used fire against him. The fight starts off with him using fire, and I'm pretty sure that fight happened the way it did to show how stubborn Ace was and why him being guided by Whitebeard changed all that.

It should be noted that a few parts of this scene are added when they didn't exist in the manga. But even then I do not know why you brought it up. It shows Ace's being able to fight a character with a counter to his intangibility (in Jinbei's case it's probably his control over water, which includes the moisture in the air) for 5 days straight. It also shows he can hold his own against a very experienced and strong martial artist

And note how in the beginning of the fight Ace tries to punch him with a fiery fist. Remember that the Flame Flame Fruit can amplify physical strikes by imbuing them with fire, which is kinda similar to how Natsu operates. So in that sense it's not like Ace was only shooting fireballs at Jinbei as it likely got physical

I can give Ace experience because he is older than Natsu, but as with all cases of experience, that goes out the drain when you fight a person with abilities you've never encountered before-

Natsu touching and eating fire being some of them.

The point on his experience is more to show how Ace has been trained since being a youngster to be efficient at melee combat. He was even trained by Garp so he can become a Marine. It shows he has more than just shooting flames

Ace may not need to turn full into fire like you said, but Natsu can still eat and touch the part of fire he becomes. Natsu isn't going to fully consume Ace, mind you, that I can concede to, but he can still eat Ace's flame body, making Ace to switch up his strategy.

Logias can make their element bodies very malleable. In the case that Natsu tries to eat parts of Ace's flame body to regenerate stamina, Ace can easily float away, bend around Natsu's grapples to avoid him, etc.

By then it'll already be too late.

You're assuming Ace can't come up with an easily solution in time? Or more realistically, knock Natsu the fuck out because he's much stronger and scales to even stronger characters?

That's if you give Ace scaling to feats that happened years after his death.

Which they don't.

It is starting to become annoying having to repeat myself on this

Only the Worst Generation got stronger after the timeskip. We only know that the rookies and up and comers who needed to prove themselves in the New World (like the Eleven Supernovas, Blackbeard, and lower ranked Marines like Smoker, Tashigi, and Coby) got stronger after the war. Guys like the Admirals, WB Commanders, Yonko, etc. have no indication they trained or got much stronger after the war. And they don't really need to either. They're already high on the One Piece tier list and can handle themselves just fine in the New World

And again, nearly every feat brought up that Ace scales to were done BEFORE the timeskip, making this point moot. The only exceptions are Aokiji and Akainu permanently altering an island by fighting (which was done as a side effect from this fight, meaning it was implied to be low effort so Ace would scale anyway) and Fujitora bringing down meteors and dishing out really casual small island level feats (which are, again, very casual so Ace still gets the scaling)

Natsu without scaling and with what's been shown is superior in stats to Ace. With scaling this goes further beyond what Ace is capable of.

Not only would not including scaling be a wrong and dishonest way to analyze this fight, you would still be wrong. Natsu is heavily reliant on scaling to Fairy Tail top tiers just as much as Ace is to One Piece top tiers. And if we include only the feats they performed themselves, Natsu's Lightning Fire Dragon Roar came out to about 1.4 megatons. The OBD Wiki has it listed as 4.5 megatons for some reason, but even that is a lower value than Sabo's Hiken right after he first ate the Flame Flame Fruit. Ace just by standing around Drum Island giving no effort at all released 6 times more energy than Natsu's strongest legit calc

"Maybe nothing in this world happens by accident. As everything happens for a reason, our destiny slowly takes form..."

Not only would not including scaling be a wrong and dishonest way to analyze this fight, you would still be wrong. Natsu is heavily reliant on scaling to Fairy Tail top tiers just as much as Ace is to One Piece top tiers. And if we include only the feats they performed themselves, Natsu's Lightning Fire Dragon Roar came out to about 1.4 megatons. The OBD Wiki has it listed as 4.5 megatons for some reason, but even that is a lower value than Sabo's Hiken right after he first ate the Flame Flame Fruit. Ace just by standing around Drum Island giving no effort at all released 6 times more energy than Natsu's strongest legit calc[/spoiler]

That feat is temperature/weather changing, which is a type of calculation I don't put much stock in, due to the fact that it's not a DC or durability feat. It's just manipulating the weather which really comes down to just changing the temperature. Also even if it were it requires Ace to use his Mera Mera no Mi powers and... we've already discussed exactly how useful those are actually going to be against Natsu (See: absolutely useless). Also of note is that it only seems to have changed the temperature from -50 to 5 degrees celcius. On top of this, it's also sketchy considering the characters on said island didn't notice any particular change in temperature (They would've noticed), so it's likely Ace only stopped the snow clouds in the sky. Considering Natsu did something similar at the start of one of the arcs (Just before meeting up with Lucy to discuss reforming Fairy Tail, the start of the Alvarez Empire Arc I think), he starts melting stone just by being there. That's more impressive than melting snow/dispersing snow clouds, even if Ace did it over a wider area, Natsu reached temperatures MUCH, MUCH higher. (somewhere between 700-1300 degrees celcius higher to be precise, depending on the melting point of the stones making up the Colosseum he was in.).

metabro wrote:The manga shows a shadowy hand grabbing Rogue while he's infused in the shadows. Looks like a contradiction from the anime, so the manga takes precedence.

The hand Gajeel uses to grab Rogue out of the ground is his physical hand in the manga and we can see that because it has the same exact coloration that his hand has when his body is outside of the shadows in the very next panel of the same page. We see this because the "shadow hand" you're referring to is clamping down on Rogues shadow, and you can tell because of the splash down affect the hand has on the shadow, unless you're saying that somehow happened out of the shadows, which is less than likely to be the case.

Even then, we have another source that shows the scene in better detail, I don't know why you have to be picky about the canon when DB will be accepting all of them?

metabro wrote:...they share the same special powers, which allows them to nullify each other's intangibility. Natsu can manipulate fire, but you can't say that he can harm a fire elemental just because he shares that same control over fire as them without indisputable proof. The only time Natsu met such a character he couldn't do anything but annoy him until the power of friendship won him over. You can't compare Gajeel to Natsu

Just because he didn't fight Atlas, doesn't mean he couldn't have hurt him, hell, everyone needed Natsu to be there because they needed a fire dragon slayer, and they never got the opportunity to fight because Atlas had already realized that they were friends.

metabro wrote:Frankly, you're completely misrepresenting the scene to the point where it's almost dishonest. Watch it again

>Natsu lands on Atlas Flame>Natsu starts eating Atlas Flame>Atlas Flame is unamused and calls it nonsense>Atlas Flame gets annoyed and tries to throw Natsu off and tells him to not try and anger him>Atlas Flame gets a feeling from Natsu that reminds him of Igneel, his good friend>They stop fighting and become friends

No.

I watched the scene already, and just for you, I did again. My answer remains the same, his expression/reaction to having Igneel the king of the dragons on his back is FEAR, of course he realizes that he's not actually on his back, and he understands he's his friend, but his expression to it is what i was getting at.

Sorry if I'm reading faces wrong or something, but I'm not trying to be dishonest here.

metabro wrote: He will be touching Ace's fire, not his real body. I do not know how many times I have to repeat this.

You don't have to repeat anything, because the answer is the same either way, Natsu is touching Aces body, fire or not. Period.

You also don't need to keep repeating that you're repeating things.

metabro wrote:He didn't stop using his fire abilities against Blackbeard because they DID matter in that fight. Your scan proves this

Blackbeard's Dark Dark Fruit is a Logia type, but it is also the only known Logia that does not let the user turn into its element. Blackbeard can use his powers to temporarily turn off a Devil Fruit's powers (particularly a Logia's intangibility), but Ace could still hurt him with his fire. It makes perfect sense for Ace to keep using fire attacks against a guy with these abilities

He felt everything Ace had because that's how his powers worked. He feels all the pain of all the attacks that happen to him because of her nature of the fruit, not because they're effective.

metabro wrote:It should be noted that a few parts of this scene are added when they didn't exist in the manga. But even then I do not know why you brought it up. It shows Ace's being able to fight a character with a counter to his intangibility (in Jinbei's case it's probably his control over water, which includes the moisture in the air) for 5 days straight. It also shows he can hold his own against a very experienced and strong martial artist

And note how in the beginning of the fight Ace tries to punch him with a fiery fist. Remember that the Flame Flame Fruit can amplify physical strikes by imbuing them with fire, which is kinda similar to how Natsu operates. So in that sense it's not like Ace was only shooting fireballs at Jinbei as it likely got physical

This is fair, though, can Jimbei counter Aces intangibility? Has he shown to do this or is this just an inference?

metabro wrote:Logias can make their element bodies very malleable. In the case that Natsu tries to eat parts of Ace's flame body to regenerate stamina, Ace can easily float away, bend around Natsu's grapples to avoid him, etc.

How fast can Ace move while made of fire? Sure you can react to a bullet train, doesn't mean you can move as fast as one. Natsu can consume city block level amounts of fire at once within seconds, Ace can react to that but I doubt he'd be able to move out in time to do that.

metabro wrote:You're assuming Ace can't come up with an easily solution in time? Or more realistically, knock Natsu the fuck out because he's much stronger and scales to even stronger characters?

He doesn't though so what's your point?

metabro wrote:Only the Worst Generation got stronger after the timeskip.

No.

You can't honestly expect me to believe that the admirals, these God tier levels dudes, sat on their hands for 2 whole f*cking years without training. You even contradict yourself saying that they didn't get "that much stronger" because that already means that they had to have gone through some form of training to keep their title of admiral.

metabro wrote:Not only would not including scaling be a wrong and dishonest way to analyze this fight, you would still be wrong. Natsu is heavily reliant on scaling to Fairy Tail top tiers just as much as Ace is to One Piece top tiers. And if we include only the feats they performed themselves, Natsu's Lightning Fire Dragon Roar came out to about 1.4 megatons. The OBD Wiki has it listed as 4.5 megatons for some reason, but even that is a lower value than Sabo's Hiken right after he first ate the Flame Flame Fruit. Ace just by standing around Drum Island giving no effort at all released

I think you misread me.

I'm not against Ace scaling in the sense that I'm ok with it if it's happened PRE-timeskip.

I literally do not accept post timeskip content. I'm not backing down from that, because it goes against what I've considered scaling for the longest time.

To each their own though dude, a lot of people probably agree with you anyways, I just don't.

But with that Drum island calc feat, I have more than a few problems with that-

We don't know how long it took Ace to melt all that ice. The dude who mentions the day the "stranger" came in it didn't snow "All day" but what about the night before? Did he arrive there and all the snow instantly melt? Why didn't literally the entire island and the people on it die from the resulting heat? Wouldn't an instance like that instantly boil anyone on that islands blood?

Also, that calc considers the clouds in the sky as being evaporated too, as the comments seem to say it does, but there are clouds in the sky for the manga scan AND anime version of that scan. Does that significantly depower the feat? Am I being a picky son of a bitch?

You can't honestly expect me to believe that the admirals, these God tier levels dudes, sat on their hands for 2 whole f*cking years without training. You even contradict yourself saying that they didn't get "that much stronger" because that already means that they had to have gone through some form of training to keep their title of admiral.

Compounding onto that, Akainu at the very least likely WOULD have been trying to grow stronger so he could bring some of the strongest pirates down, such as Shanks or Mihawk (Remember, Akainu hates ALL pirates with a burning passion and wants them all dead, hence his motto of 'Absolute Justice'.), to say nothing about the fact that Luffy has grown stronger too.

@KKMild point regarding post time skip feats:Ace can match Aokiji while he is weakened, scaling not applying to Ace (for, say, the feroucious tiger feat) requires that Post-time skip Aokiji with a missing leg and 2 years of probably fuck all seeing as he generally does nothing unless he has to >>> Doflamingo>=Gear Fourth Luffy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gear 2 Luffy >> Weakened G2 luffy >> Ace>>> Weakened Ace=Aokij Pre time skip.So: