Did the fruit flies turn into wasps, or the wasps turn into fruit flies?

We can see variations on species all around us, no one denies this; but to go from variation to:

"an ape transformed into a man,"

is, well, a gigantic leap.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "pretty loose definition of speciation." However, this introduces a variation on mechanism. Seriously, if a wasp species can change this quickly, then real speciation is hard to dismiss. Consider change at this rate--how long before "apple wasps" and "hawthorn wasps" can no longer mate with one another and produce reproducing offspring? Again, at this rate of change, how long before a "wasp" is no longer a "wasp"?

Yeah, that's what I meant by "pretty loose definition of speciation." However, this introduces a variation on mechanism. Seriously, if a wasp species can change this quickly, then real speciation is hard to dismiss. Consider change at this rate--how long before "apple wasps" and "hawthorn wasps" can no longer mate with one another and produce reproducing offspring? Again, at this rate of change, how long before a "wasp" is no longer a "wasp"?

I think the average rate of mutation is something relatively stable as they are able to evaluate how long the head louse and the pubic louse have been separated (which translates to how long since we 'as a species' no longer have hair all over our bodies, so lice can no longer travel freely from one point to another) just by comparing their DNA. They say it's almost as reliable as a clock.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "pretty loose definition of speciation." However, this introduces a variation on mechanism. Seriously, if a wasp species can change this quickly, then real speciation is hard to dismiss. Consider change at this rate--how long before "apple wasps" and "hawthorn wasps" can no longer mate with one another and produce reproducing offspring? Again, at this rate of change, how long before a "wasp" is no longer a "wasp"?

Look at dogs, they are probably one of the most diverse mammalian species on the planet.

Currently we have a 12 pound Jack Russel-Chihuahua mix...some people the block over have massive dogs (not sure the breed) whose heads are probably 4 feet off the ground.

Now, if you took our little mix and these giant dogs and put them on a desert island, they would never in the natural course of events breed with each other...but they would still both be canines.

Furthermore, variations on canines can, as with the variations of wasps, be developed rapidly.

But, no matter how many variations we have on canine and how rapidly we develop them we have not yet turned a canine into something that is not a canine, have we?

When a wasp turns into something that is not a wasp, great, get back to me.

« Last Edit: Nov 1st, 2015 at 5:11pm by Frank1 »

To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon

Look at dogs, they are probably one of the most diverse mammalian species on the planet.

Currently we have a 12 pound Jack Russel-Chihuahua mix...some people the block over have massive dogs (not sure the breed) whose heads are probably 4 feet off the ground.

Now, if you took our little mix and these giant dogs and put them on a desert island, they would never in the natural course of events breed with each other...but they would still both be canines.

Furthermore, variations on canines can, as with the variations of wasps, be developed rapidly.

But, no matter how many variations we have on canine and how rapidly we develop them we have not yet turned a canine into something that is not a canine, have we?

When a wasp turns into something that is not a wasp, great, get back to me.

Speciation in nature takes normally millions of years, (about eight million years for humanity), even accelerated we haven't been around long enough to make that kind of change. However paleontology and countless digs have yielded thousands of cases of species evolving to others. The analysis of DNAs proved that the rate of mutation is almost constant over long stretches of time. We can now give a reasonable evaluation of the time two different species shared a common ancestor just by counting the differences in their DNAs. You people are basically the flat-earthers of biology.

Speciation in nature takes normally millions of years, (about eight million years for humanity), even accelerated we haven't been around long enough to make that kind of change. However paleontology and countless digs have yielded thousands of cases of species evolving to others. The analysis of DNAs proved that the rate of mutation is almost constant over long stretches of time. We can now give a reasonable evaluation of the time two different species shared a common ancestor just by counting the differences in their DNAs. You people are basically the flat-earthers of biology.

Speciation in nature takes normally millions of years, (about eight million years for humanity), even accelerated we haven't been around long enough to make that kind of change. However paleontology and countless digs have yielded thousands of cases of species evolving to others. The analysis of DNAs proved that the rate of mutation is almost constant over long stretches of time. We can now give a reasonable evaluation of the time two different species shared a common ancestor just by counting the differences in their DNAs. You people are basically the flat-earthers of biology.

How in the world does similarity in DNA prove that one species transformed into another?

We have lots of other similarities between various organic organisms besides DNA.

Or a couch and a chair are both made of wood and fabric, so I guess one evolved into the other.

A form is a form is a form.

Man is a form, always been man, never been any other form.

Gorilla is a form, always been gorilla, never been any other form.

Same for wasps, canines, etc.

Of course a form can have many variations on it, and this is where the confusion arises. People use the fact that we see variations on forms to argue that one form changes into another...but no, the forms are always distinct from each other, this is why man, with all his millennia of breeding plants and animals have never turned one species into a different species.

« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2015 at 11:37pm by Frank1 »

To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon