[edit front append]If you're new to this discussion, please after reading this opening post, also read this wiki page on which amarillion keeps a list of the suggestions made so far.[/edit]

[append Important Legal Issue]"Authors who submit their suggestions/logos/mascots in this process will give up all rights. The suggestions/logos/mascots put on the voting page and the gallery and maybe into the library afterwards will be public domain(giftware just like Allegro itself) and may be freely used in any way. By submitting an entry you will agree on the previous terms."[/append]

several discussions on IRC and in that thread later, people seem to agree that it would be good to just create an entirely new mascot/logo for Allegro, because using Alex The Allegator would make the license more complicated, whereas an entirely new mascot could just be given away within the current giftware license;

As that logo challenge thread has grown quite large and as it doesn't seem to get attention from any of those "in charge to make decisions", I have decided to create this new thread.

What are the goals of this thread?1.) To create a list of community member suggested animals+name+characteristics+reasons why it should be the allegro mascot(NOTE: no art will be created in this first step!)

2.) To let the community choose the three most popular mascots from the resulting list of step 1.). I'd ask Matthew to put them into a poll on the front page, as that is probably the easiest way to get a result(only members should be allowed to vote).(NOTE: still no art up to here)

3.) As soon as the poll from step 2.) is closed, artists and non-artists can go and create logos/mascots based on the three most popular suggestions. There needs to be a time limit under which these will be created or else no decision is ever going to be made. (and there need to be some rules for the entries, e.g. they have to be rescalable vector art)[update/edit] actually, this step will be divided into two steps of which the first one will be a long stretched sketching phase, where people won't create final masterpieces but merely do sketches, discuss them, improve them and then go on to create the final polished versions

4.) The community would then again choose their favourite logo/mascot from the results of step 3.)

5.) The winning logo/mascot from step 4.) will be included within the lib and will be the "official" Allegro logo/mascot.[update/edit] This is not guaranteed(by the main allegro devs) and actually this step will be more like "the winning logo/mascot from step 4.) will be presented to the main Allegro devs and the Allegro dictator, along with the suggestion to make it the "official" mascot/logo as created and chosen by the community"[update/edit] but of course nobody can/will be forced to use it

Other things that the official mascot might be used for after it has been decided upon:

may be featured in a new Allegro demo game as the main character

may be featured doing different activities in the manual

may be leading through a few introductional tutorials about using the library

your ideas here...

Ok now, first things first, let's start with step 1.)Suggest an animal that should be the mascot for Allegro.
Suggest a name for that mascot as well.
Give a few characteristics that this particular instance of that animal has(e.g. quick, lively, bright, bookish, collectivist, individualist, wise,...).
Also give reasons on why you think that your suggestion should be the mascot for Allegro.

It is really important to give those characteristics and a reason, because this will later aid people in creating the pictures of those mascots. The aim is to create a mascot with character after all and not just some empty iconified animal stereotype with no character at all.

Good idea. This process is lengthy, but like I said in the other thread I don't think there is a way around that so we just have to deal.

I've got a mascotte suggestion:

- Allegrotron -

Allegrotron is not an animal, but a cute little pet robot that likes to do fun things. He is very handy and agile, and enjoys being programmed to play video games against human opponents. He is looking for human friends to program him and play with.

I think Allegrotron should be the mascotte because it symbolizes what allegro stands for: geeks having fun programming and fooling around with video games.

(I'd put up Allan the Allegrosaurus again as well, but I think that was shot down pretty effectively in the other thread )

I think, the logo could be independent from the mascot. Of course, the logo also could contain the mascot, but quite often the logo of something is very simple, without displaying the mascot.

I also have a suggestion, picking up Alan the Allegrosaurus - I would like to give it wings, and make it Alice the Allgedron, the little winged dragon of Allegro. Unlike it's old, heavy, slow and outdated dinosaur predecessor, it's fast and lively and bright, with a clean API, motivating to write many games

The Alex logo has been in the Allegro for a very long time, and I think it was contributed by Johan himself. It also shows up as the icon for Allegro's homepage.Now, I didn't see Johan say that he wants it removed, just that Alex is his character and no one can make Alex the Allegator games or use thename "Alex the Allegator" except with permission from him. I think that's fine and quite distinct from using Alex as the Allegro mascot. Some discussion with Johan might be good to clarify some points. We should probably add "Alex the Allegator is a trademark of Free Lunch Design and used with permission" or something like that.

Quote:

will be featured in a new Allegro demo game as the main character

In that case, we can as well go backward and the character of Ted the Scater as our mascot. Or have a "family" of mascots that Ted is partof (Nintendo has a few character icons as well).

Quote:

will be featured doing different activities in the manual

Can you give an example of how you imagine this?

Quote:

will be leading through a few introductional tutorials about using the library

Personally, I've hated tutorials that feature cute animals to explain me how to do things since I left kindergarten, but I suppose it's ok. Again though, how do you see this work?

It sounded like a decision had been reached. I didn't see anything on [AD], nor anything definitive on these forums (as far as I can tell), so I wanted to know where this discussion was had (IRC, I suppose) and between whom.

Anyway, I'm not totally opposed, but I'm not too excited by the idea either. Seems like a distraction.

That's the problem of it. It hasn't really been decided yet. The whole purpose of this thread is to push forward to making a decision and to get *your*(and that of other devs) attention, so that you can participate in the discussion. I think it's a good idea to let that decision be made by the community as a whole. Another option would be for a great dictator over Allegro to step up and say "This is it <period>.". In that latter case we can all save us the time and the trouble. Who is that great dictator/fearless leader? Who is in charge? Who makes the decisions?

Evert said:

Some discussion with Johan might be good to clarify some points. We should probably add "Alex the Allegator is a trademark of Free Lunch Design and used with permission" or something like that.

That's why the result of the previous discussion was that we need something new and unique, because then the giftware license doesn't need to be changed/restricted at all.

Evert said:

Can you give an example of how you imagine this?

Yes, for example the mascot holding a brush and a painters pallette could be displayed as the section header for the graphics and drawing functions. A piano playing mascot could be used for the sound and music routines. etc. See the examples, created by Matt Smith to which I linked in here.

Evert said:

Again though, how do you see this work?

There'd be a version of the mascot with a long gray beard, glasses and a doctors hat and some pointing device, who would explain basic functionalities with charts, a blackboard, pictures and talking bubbles. That version might also be featured in "nice to know" boxes and "common mistakes".

append:

Peter Wang said:

Anyway, I'm not totally opposed, but I'm not too excited by the idea either. Seems like a distraction.

If you're worried that this will add a lot of workload. Well it won't, at least not until decisions are being made for changes to the manual (with header pics of the mascot and those previously mentioned tutorials).

I think I'm still the dictator on account of no one else wanting to take on that title on the same grounds as me wanting to pass it on (lack of time).That said, I do think of Peter as the "de facto" Dictator.

Quote:

because then the giftware license doesn't need to be changed/restricted at all.

The giftware license deals with Allegro. Possible use of Alex the Allegator in the documentation and on the website is a separate issue, I think. Alex isn't actually part of Allegro (well... I suppose he is the default icon as well, so in that sense, he is there). I don't think this makes it nescessary to change the license in any way...

Quote:

Yes, for example the mascot holding a brush and a painters pallette could be displayed as the section header for the graphics and drawing functions. A piano playing mascot could be used for the sound and music routines. etc. See the examples, created by Matt Smith to which I linked in here.

Ok. Well, as I said, I don't like cute animals in manuals or tutorials, but maybe that's just me.

I think I'm still the dictator on account of no one else wanting to take on that title on the same grounds as me wanting to pass it on (lack of time).That said, I do think of Peter as the "de facto" Dictator.

So, do you have the balls to at least make the decision to approve this way of finding,deciding upon the new logo/mascot? Doesn't really need much of your time, all you need to confirm is point 5.) of the OP. That is, confirm that the logo/mascot that is found by the whole process as decribed in the OP of this thread, will be the offical logo/mascot. Whatever you do, make a decision please. (I can't stand the lack of decisions being made here.;D) And if you don't approve that way, suggest something else.

Evert said:

Ok. Well, as I said, I don't like cute animals in manuals or tutorials, but maybe that's just me.

Well, it's a game development library after all. Time to add some style, soul and character to it(imo). Also, more people might be bothered to read the manual if it has pictures in it.

The giftware license deals with Allegro. Possible use of Alex the Allegator in the documentation and on the website is a separate issue, I think. Alex isn't actually part of Allegro (well... I suppose he is the default icon as well, so in that sense, he is there). I don't think this makes it nescessary to change the license in any way...

But what is really needed is something that is part of Allegro. Alex can't be part of Allegro, so we need something else.

Well, the way Alex was picked as default icon was just, Johan made it for his game, people liked it, and it was included, as alex.xpm first, without further purpose I think, just so people could use it as logo:

Then much later a .png version and an inlined .c version were added, so it could be used as default icon for all Allegro programs.

And I don't think we really need a much stricter process now, with a dictator picking an official logo (or sanctioning an official way to create one). People who want to create a logo should do so because they like to, so it wouldn't be wasted time creating it, whether it is included as official logo later or not. Most of the steps in the outlined process so far seem to be good for that But if e.g. no good logo comes out of it (like in the last logo competition many years ago), there shouldn't be any pressure to select one

So, do you have the balls to at least make the decision to approve this way of finding,deciding upon the new logo/mascot? Doesn't really need much of your time, all you need to confirm is point 5.) of the OP. That is, confirm that the logo/mascot that is found by the whole process as decribed in the OP of this thread, will be the offical logo/mascot.

I will not. If you really want me to take a stand on this, then my stand is that something in the way of a mascot is thought of and then proposed to the developers who get to decide if they like it or not and if it gets included or not. In that sense, it's like any other part you might want to contribute to Allegro. Essentially, this is along the same line as Elias' post above.That's mostly my personal opinion but you can take it as an "official" statement unless someone like Peter or Elias makes another one (I deem it too much a personal statement to be hardline about it).

So bottom line, come up with something (collectively) and then post it like you would anyother patch.

Perhaps "Official" is too strict a term. Perhaps it should be presented as a "default"/"generic" logo that people can use unless they wish to create their own. That way, everyone still gets to have input into a community-based logo, but nobody is comitted to using it.

But if e.g. no good logo comes out of it (like in the last logo competition many years ago), there shouldn't be any pressure to select one

I agree. If all final entries lack quality and nobody likes any of it then none of them should get picked.

Evert said:

If you really want me to take a stand on this, then my stand is that something in the way of a mascot is thought of and then proposed to the developers who get to decide if they like it or not and if it gets included or not. In that sense, it's like any other part you might want to contribute to Allegro.

Fair enough. It is however a huge amount of work to create something at even semi-professional quality. That's why I think that nobody is going to put a lot of effort into designing a mascot/logo, if it hasn't been previously agreed upon at least the character of the mascot and that the chances are high that if the final graphical representation of that character is any good, it will be put into the library.This isn't about code, so it won't destroy any compatibility, functionality or anything at all. I don't think the same standards as for code contributions need to apply here.

In other words: I want the developers to monitor and comment on the process of finding the mascot from the beginning on, to save anyone the trouble of pointlessly wasting time at creating something, that by default doesn't have any chance of getting in anyway.

LennyLen said:

Perhaps it should be presented as a "default"/"generic" logo that people can use unless they wish to create their own. That way, everyone still gets to have input into a community-based logo, but nobody is comitted to using it.

I agree but I still think that it would be good to have something that the library can identify with. It is correct that nobody should be forced to use whatever logo/mascot comes out of this, but it should at least be encouraged to use that logo/mascot, by using it on all official websites, in the documentation, etc..

And also, to minimize the chances that that default logo/mascot will totally suck, I think the process as described earlier will ensure a somewhat high level of quality and will bring artists and non-artists alike the needed motivation to get creative on this issue. Also, since the community will vote about it, the majority of people using the library will like the logo/mascot that gets chosen. Maybe it should be a rule that the winning entry has to have at least a two thirds majority. What do you think?

1. Start looking for a logo and/or mascot and general overall theme for things like the manual, website and who knows what else.

2. Do nothing, leave everything as it is, decide on nothing at all, and advertise to people that allegro isn't serious, its only for kiddies making useless trinkets, theres no leadership, no order, and no future.

edit: Take a look at KDE's new theme. It could not be more polished and slick. Noone will take us seriously if Allegro sticks with the same old decades old crap it has now.

edit2: I should say, we have some actual talented artists wanting to contribute, and people are just getting in the way. Do I think we should cater to them. Yes. You either have people with talent, or you don't its as simple as that.

Like Evert, I think a mascot in a manual would just put me off. It really would scream "kiddie".

If you want something decisive, here it is: we're not putting a mascot in the manual. makedoc does not handle images. Since makedoc will be the documentation generator for the foreseeable future, I don't want any distractions retrofitting image support into makedoc.

If you want to update the look of the web site, write alternative tutorials targetted at a younger audience, render a new demo game intro, etc. that's all fine.