“Oh, so fallen soldier Jacinda Baker liked boxing and baking – did they forget she also liked invading countries we are not at war with, killing innocent people and had no moral compass” Burstyn wrote on her Facebook page.

“She 100 per cent does not deserve our respect for her flawed choices. We are not at war. We are helping America invade another country for their oil. No more than that.

“Go to war expect to be killed. You can’t have it both ways – oh nice little career with the military and shock horror when you get blown up.”

The post went viral around the internet and last night 19,000 people had joined a Facebook group called “Sumner Burstyn give back your NZ Passport!”.

Sumner-Burstyn seems to be a very stupid person, as she repeats a manta “war for oil” without even understanding it. Afghanistan is not an oil producing country.

More to the point, one can have a legitimate view on the conflict in Afghanistan and express it in the context of deaths. But Sumner-Burstyn crossed the line by making claims about Jacinda Baker personally, and almost expressing satisfaction that she had died. She seems to lack any empathy for fellow human beings such as Jacinda’s familiy, friends and colleagues.

It goes without saying that while of course people will get angry at Sumner-Burstyn for her vile remarks on Jacinda Baker, that anger should never become threats as a few did. That just allows Sumner-Burstyn to portray herself as the victim.

It‘s a shame such a talented film-maker is so lacking in basic human empathy and decency.

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This entry was posted on Sunday, August 26th, 2012 at 9:59 am and is filed under NZ Politics.
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Yeah probably but the subtext of her statement is that our national penchant for lionizing our war dead is somewhat hypocritical – in which case I’m inclined to agree with her. Shame she personalized the issue.

Death threats were in fact removed and the FB page has over 20,000 members. This nasty nasty bit of work also urged an Afghan vet to “change sides” and use his talents “killing” according to her, against the government.

Her appology was a litany of lies and spent 80% of its space bleating about the entire NZDF threatening her.

Yeah shes pissed off a lot of people in a very short ammount of time, but she is the mistress of her own infamy. Perhaps she’d more comfortable if she went home to Canada instead of sucking on the NZ tazpyer teat under the protection of its armed forces.

Its armed forces are not too thrilled about her this week.

And Luke if you actually read what has been said you’d acknowledge she lied, but you’re a typical leftist shithead happy with the lie that suits your agenda.

It would be more accurate to say that Afghanistan was not an oil producing country at the time of the 2001 invasion – which renders the Sumner-Burstyn quote as being in the broken-clock category.

It’s only been in the last couple of years that people have been able to explore the place sufficiently well that such resources have been discovered – and it should be noted that these announcements were pooh-poohed by the likes of Luke as exaggerated, desperate efforts by the USA to further justify their presence in the country.

But if one wants further proof of the street-demo-chant quality of Sumner-Burstyn’s “thinking” on this, one need only note that it is a Chinese company that has landed the oil field deal. Some war for oil by the USA that is. Perhaps Luke can spin a conspiracy theory out of it.

Afghanistan isn’t an oil producing country.
It might be in the future if the Chinese manage to extract it.
Other points to note:
1. The fact that Afghanistan might have economically viable aounts of oil was only discovered in 2006, 5 years after the US ‘invasion’.
2. No US oil companies are or will be involved in mining or oil exploration in Afghanistan.

The statement “Sumner-Burstyn seems to be a very stupid person, as she repeats a manta “war for oil” without even understanding it.” stands.

she is stupid Luke and so is believing in the cult of socialism. You’re young though so it’s forgivable.
She fled. That’s all that should really concern New Zealanders; that we no longer have to harbour that kind of snake in our midst.

It‘s a shame such a talented film-maker is so lacking in basic human empathy and decency.

Well big surprise. She’s a screaming raving loony lefty. Like all of her ilk she imagines she knows everything about everything and just everybody would agree with her every word because she weally weally weally cares. That’s why she said what she said, she never imagined other people wouldn’t think like her or that people might not conclude that yes, she has a good point and what an extraordinarily advanced thinker she is.

What I want to understand is why New Zealand newspapers pay money for comment from idiots like her – i.e. Minto and Matt McCarten. She was or is on the payroll of the NZ Herald, and also gets grant money from the NZ government.

“Anti-war post Direct insults to dead soldier’s character, implying that she was nothing more than a common murderer results in murder and rape threats by peacekeepers people who knew her. Family flees home to escape peacekeeper threats from her friends and comrades.”

There you go Muttonhead, fixed it for you to elide your pathetic attempt to further besmirch those trying to stand up to your mates, the Taliban.

Luke is too new a commentator to be on record with regard to the violence and death threats dished out by the now collapsed Occupy Wall Street movement or left-wing union thugs, but I’d bet good money that he’d justify those in a heartbeat as the result of “provocation”.

Don;t forget, in another system she would be executed for exercising her right to speak.

She is within her rights to make these comments. It is her right to have opinions, and her right to draw funding from taxpayers.

These are her rights.

They are the same kind of rights she might enjoy under a different system, but her presence and her ability to speak out as she has represents a victory for our society, because in short, she has a right to be and act exactly as she wishes, free from persecution or discrimination.

In a way she has highlighted what are the best and most successful attributes of our democratic system – the right to say what she likes. In a bizarre way she honours those fallen soldiers who were in part, seeking to establish and further those same rights for others in a different, less democratic part of the world.

Yes, she has illustrated what those selfless soldiers were helping to achieve, and has illustrated why freedom of expression is a valid and worthy pursuit.

The trouble is Lee C a sad individual like this bint is way to arrogant and disconnected to realise that her freedoms have only been achieved by sacrifice.

And like you say she is also too stupid to realise that she would be the first up against the wall if things were different.

Max Hastings tells a wonderful story about the fall of Saigon. They were all trying to get out as fast as they could and who should he see but John Pilger scrambling like the rest trying to get on a helicopter. Max states he thought seeing as the reptile (my word) Pilger had spent years supporting the North and sticking it to the USA he would have hung a round and greeted the communists as they entered the city because they were “his people”. I wonder why he didn’t?

I wonder if she’s considered the fact that in Taliban controlled Afghanistan she would have had no right to speak her thoughts on anything. The US invasion was in direct response to the 9/11 attacks and was supported by NATO, who for the first time invoked Article V of their charter claiming an attack on one nation to be an attack on all. It was supported by Australia through the ANZUS pact and NZ only went in under UN sanction. The Taliban govt was given a chance to hand over Osama bin Laden when the US gave them an ultimatum on 20 Sept. 2001. They refused to cooperate. At that point the US didn’t really invade, they just gave military and financial support to the Northern Alliance, which was already fighting thr Taliban in a civil war. The fact that China has won the oil contracts prove this was no war of colonisation. This new leftist hatred for all war regardless of the causes really annoys me. They’ll complain about US invasions of supposedly peaceful nations but then complain again if the US stands aside while tribes slaughter each other as in Rwanda or the Sudan.

I don’t condone the death threats, but she did bring everything she got on her self. If you’re going to make stupid and insensitive comments just after some one has died, people that care about that person are going to make heated comments.

Now for Summer to claim victim is no different to the bully in the playground who hits a kid who suddenly fights back and beats the crap out of them, only for the bully to go running to the teacher to complain that the kid beat them up.

I understand Summer is currently in Canada, hopefully the Canadian Police arrest her on some sort of hate speech legislation or misuse of the internet or such. Give her a chance to think for a few hours about her actions. And perhaps allow her to issue a true apology, not a back handed one.

Has anybody noticed that this repugnant woman only makes her snide comments about deceased soldiers of European descent?
(She has done this before..)
Strangely, She han’t said a word about the Maori soldiers who died..

Just for Luke Mutton and his fellow devotees (cross-posted from the General Debate):

Kane Te Tai

Did you catch the service on the news yesterday? You would’ve seen a guy with an IV drip attached in a bed being hauled into the service. He owes his life to Jacinda who braved enemy fire not to fight, but to heal. You may never know the courage it takes to undertake an act that causes you to fight the two biggest impulses we humans are given. Fight or flight. For the un-initiated medics are not under any mandate to fight in any situation other then to protect their patients. She did this with ease and valour.

I’m interested to know if she has ever directly slagged off any dead soldiers of the Canadian Army, her home country, who have lost over 100 personnel in Afghanistan. Or is she just another typical breathy preachy left wing North American out here downunder to “educate” New Zealanders.

I hope she goes home and stays out of my country.

I also trust that the Herald and others will no longer use her contributions.

So, the government takes money from labourers, clerks, and truck drivers to fund a bunch of ‘film makers’ through NZOA. Meanwhile NZ is still borrowing billions to balance the books. What’s wrong with this picture? As for the ‘film makers’, it should surprise nobody that they’re the usual leftist pondscum.

Sumner-Burstyn has been around for years and is a total lunatic, literally. For years she was in league with Ken Ring promoting his mad moon-causes-weather nonsense. She was also a long time prominent campaigner against vaccination.

In the early 1990s she ran Magazzino in Ponsonby.

She is or was a rampant rooter. Tim Wilson (formerly TVNZ NYC correspondent) nicknamed her Custard Pants, because, as he put it, she had so many lovers that if you threw her knickers at a wall, they’d stick to it.

Given her anti-science and conspiracy theory bent, she likely even denies that Neil Armstrong, vale, walked upon the moon.

BTW, Jacinda Baker was a medic and as such protected by the Geneva Conventions. She was not a combatant as such. She was escorting a colleague to the doctor.

She is cut from the same cloth as the Code Pink women in America, who stand outside funerals of American soldiers and shout “shame” and other abuse while the families of the fallen are grieving. That’s Liberals all over.

While not hiding my contempt for BSB, what you say could equally be said for the right-wing “Christians” who stand outside churches cheering abuse at the gay people whose funeral is being held therein, and outside prisons where inmates are being executed, cheering the executions.

Extremists are extremists, wherever they sit on the political spectrum.

There is nothing “liberal” about an extremist of any hue from left to right.

Given her long history of conspiracy theories (including the moon causes the weather, vaccination is a secret plot to poison children) I dare say she denies he ever went to the moon.

Yes isn’t she mental Dave. I mean everyone knows HAARP causes the weather, vaccination is a secret plot to poison everyone not just children, and while we did get to the moon, we had help from the aliens because – duh – everyone knows you can’t pass through the Van Allen radiation belt using the shielding they claimed they used, they would have needed tons of lead, plus when the LEM blasted off from the lunar surface, did the film show dust and a crater from the “rocket?” No. There wasn’t one. So how did it happen? Anti-grav. I mean crikey. Aren’t people mental.

I don’t think I’m known as someone who’s willing to cut “liberals” any slack – but as dave53 points out (not specifically), the Westboro Baptist Church protest outside the funerals of American military people who are gay.

The Westboro people don’t protest at gay soldiers’ funerals, the protest at any soldier’s funeral. They are claiming that all these soldiers are being killed as part of God’s wrath at America for tolerating gays. That’s their line, God kills straight Christian soldiers in Iraq because the US tolerates gays (a hell of a lot less than most of Europe, South Africa, Canada by the way). They also believe the 2004 Boxing Day Tsunami and Hurricane Katrina were God’s wrath and I personally saw them protesting George Bush’s second inauguration with signs saying “Thank God for Tsunamis” and “Thank God for Dead Soldiers.”

The Westboro people don’t protest at gay soldiers’ funerals, the protest at any soldier’s funeral. They are claiming that all these soldiers are being killed as part of God’s wrath at America for tolerating gays.

Please tell me you don’t think this is a good thing. Your whole comment seems to support all this.

Until today I had not heard of Sumner Bursten. I have never seen her films, work or writing and so cannot comment whether she is good, bad or otherwise as a film maker or writer. What is clear however is she has very little understanding of this country or it’s people and seems to be hell bend on seeking a bit of publicity. Despite a few idiots venting on Facebook there is very little likelihood that she or her family is in any danger. Unfortunately as DPF put is she had been able to make this issue about her rather than where the real focus should lie which is her idiotic and insensitive comments. I don’t condone threats. Frankly if they catch the fools they should be charged.

But let’s focus for a moment on Burstens comments. Arrogant, stupid and thoughtless comments. She should unreservedly apologise to Jacinta Bakers family and friends. it is unlikely that I will ever take any interest in any of Burstens comments or work as how could you take someone quite so stupid seriously.

questions, I’ve just read this complete thread from top to bottom and did not see anyone here threaten to kill her, in fact, what I did see was a general abhorrence of any threats made against this stupid woman.

I did also see 3 cunts, as you so eloquently put it, commenting; luke mutton, simonway and your good self.

This all depends on how you frame the topic,
is this a story
1) about her being right or wrong about afgainistan
2) about her being very VERY insensitive
3) or about people making threats (probably idle ones)

I think we can almost all agree 3 and 2 are naughty and yet there will always be someone dumb enough to do both of them.

It is a shame that the comments by the servicemen were so vitriolic. However, I can remember female members of the navy being spat on in Wellington streets because people didn’t want the government to buy new frigates. I can also remember being throwen out of pubs in Wellington because we were in favour of anzus. After having to put up with years of being slagged off at by clowns like this woman, and not being allowed to respond, I am pleasently surprised by the fact that today’s servicemen and women have had the guts to lash back. I don’t agree about the threats, but obviously Burstyn thought that nothing would happen just like all the other times when dickheads like her have attacked service people in the press or social media.

I think it’s shameful an disgusting behaviour too, but find it hard to take lessons in morality from one who has expressed heself so negatively.

I’m not sure I agree with your definition of ‘patriotic NZers’. Dean Papa. I’d suggest that ‘Patriotic NZer’s died in the service of their country’ would keep our hearts and minds more focussed on whatever appeal to values you were trying to promote.

The only ‘Patriotic NZers’ I can think of right now are those who have died. The rest of it is just – chaff, really (this post included).

As I said before. The right to speak your mind, regardless of whether others like it – this is essentially what they were there for.

Regardless of how I feel about the NZ ‘presence’ in Aghanistan, I’d like to offer my unworthy gratitude, and offer my condolensces to their families. If people restricted themselves to that, I think it would represent a real victory for decency.

“…if the men of the New Zealand Defence force behave like this at home, what are they doing when deployed overseas? If this is the culture that is endorsed by the NZDF then it is no wonder our country is blighted with domestic violence and child abuse. When men feel free to respond to a handful of words they don’t like with threats of extreme violence then you know we are a truly sick society.”

That is so true. It’s little wonder we’ve seen terrible atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan, committed by coalition troops, when we have such appalling comments directed against someone who has the temerity to oppose our involvement in war.

It dumbfounds me that someone with apparently so much breadth of life experience could make the comments she did. Utterly insensitive, cold and callous beyond reproach. It demonstrates a lack of humanity and understanding of society at the basic level.

We can only hope Barbara learns to appreciate the same anguish that she has caused others. As a film buff I will be avoiding any projects she is involved in and encouraging others to do so.

I’m failing to see the logic of your views Ross. I can ‘t see any evidence of temerity in her expressions. Rather she appears willfully intent on further provoking and inflaming sensitivities. Let’s not forget she launched an unprovoked personalised attack on dead soldiersin order to ‘oppose’ war. Which is cool, because despite her evident outrage, no one actually is machine-gunning her while she engages in her own righteous crusade to promote free-speech.

I repeat, by doing this, rather than exposing a ‘truly sick society’ she is inadvertently acknowledging and advocating for the central strength of our society – the right to say what you like. As indeed you are.

“…when we have such appalling comments directed against someone who has the temerity to oppose our involvement in war.”

No. She made a particularly nasty and personal attack on a dead soldier who was in the habit of saving lives, not taking them. Many people oppose our involvement and are able to do so in a measured, factual and sensitive manner. She chose not to — deliberately so. That doesn’t excuse some of the reactions to her comments. Nor does opposition to the conflict in Afghanistan excuse her comments.

all the ugly comments from the filmmaker and those reacting, aside, wouldnt it be helpful if we could have a full and honest adult conversation about WTF we are doing there (looking for Bin laden in a cave has expired) and what legitimacy the West has in the 6 illegal invasions of these Middle Eastern countries (Syria now) and what impact positive or negative impact we (The Western Alliance) have had on the civilian populations through our illegal invasions of their countries. All of the 6 wars have been part of restructuring the “new middle east” to suit Israel, the US and Europe and is part of an end game strategy up against China & Russia and to control strategically the world chess board, (and of which Kosovo was a part). What has been done to the people of Iraq by the Western Alliance I would suggest on the significant amount of available evidence I have studied are war crimes – crimes against humanity – atrocities. Just threatening to kill me doesnt make our position good in this. I want to believe we are behaving well but there doesnt seem to be any honest transparent conversation to measure things by. I retain my faith in the integrity of the Kiwi soldier always and honour their ultimate sacrifice as has happened for our 5 fallen and their families are in my thoughts, that is why I ask for some real debate about what the whole Middle eastern intervention has been about.

> she is inadvertently acknowledging and advocating for the central strength of our society – the right to say what you like

Well, yes, I think you’ll find the Bill of Rights confers a number of rights, including speech. But it doesn’t allow those claiming to be in the NZDF, or anyone else, the opportunity to say that they wish to commit rape or murder against a specific individual. There’s a subtle difference which you no doubt can fully comprehend.

“…if the men of the New Zealand Defence force behave like this at home, what are they doing when deployed overseas? If this is the culture that is endorsed by the NZDF then it is no wonder our country is blighted with domestic violence and child abuse. When men feel free to respond to a handful of words they don’t like with threats of extreme violence then you know we are a truly sick society.”

That is so true. It’s little wonder we’ve seen terrible atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan, committed by coalition troops, when we have such appalling comments directed against someone who has the temerity to oppose our involvement in war.

Oh FFS Ross, as usual with the left, take exactly what you want from any statement, regardless of content, and twist the meaning to suit your own ends.

There was no-one in the NZDF who opposed her anti-war sentiments, where she crossed the line was in her descriptions of Lance Cpl Baker.

Now I am the first to admit that some of the comments made by some people on the facebook page set up in response to this made comments that were threatening, and in many cases disgusting. I was appalled by them. They were wildly inappropriate. But there were also a great many people who posted on that page who took issue with the comments, and told the people who made them to pull their heads in, an approach that may have worked wonders had some of Ms Sumner Byrstyns colleagues taken the same approach with her original comments.

I don’t understand why you might suggest that, Ross. Was there something in my past post that indicated I wished her any ill-feeling, or that she deserved to be dealt with violently? I thought I was telling people we should value outspoken types because they serve to prove what a liberated and free society we are blessed to live in.

SO, rather than condemning her, it was quite the contrary, I was praising her for engaging in free speech, as indeed I am praising you for the same. My only disappointment is that I may have caused you to misunderstand my sentiments – I apologise for my clumsiness of expression, sometimes I’m in a bit of a hurry!

I think that we need more people such as yourself, and of course Ms. Brystyns who are unafraid to grasp the nettle and run the gauntlet of negative opinion in a safe environment. My point about the machine-gunning was that even though, you and I and Ms. Brystyns may express ourselves in certain ways, it is a tribute to the soldiers that some may criticise that we are able to do so. Safe, as it were from real danger.

I would never advocate violence against someone for taking advantage of their right to free speech. That is why I applaud your selfless efforts to remedy any misconceptions and think you are doing such a good job, keeping us ‘on our toes’ as it were. The fact that Ms. Brystyns and yourself are free to sit behind a safe, danger-free keyboard, immune from the stresses and privations of someone posted into the back of beyond, where they have to face death on a pretty regular basis, is a tribute to their bravery. But it is more than that. I’d like to pay tribute to people like you and Ms. Brystyns, who daily ‘push the boundaries’ and selflessly stick your necks out in the name of objective and balanced, sane, mature and well-considered (may I add compassionate) commentary.

I’m proud to know you and Ms. Brystyns exist in our society, Ross, if there were there were more like you, the world would be a better place..

That is so true. It’s little wonder we’ve seen terrible atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan, committed by coalition troops, when we have such appalling comments directed against someone who has the temerity to oppose our involvement in war.

Summer-Burstyn needs to find a better way of opposing our involvement in war, than by saying in public that recently killed servicemen deserved it. Seriously. When her real beef should be with the civilian leadership that instructs the military where to go, she instead chose to speak very ill indeed of the dead when the bodies were not even back in NZ yet. She is a sorry excuse for a human being and she should go DIAF.

And YOU need to find a better justification for insinuating that all NZ soldiers are rapists & murderers, than just “because a few U.S. soldiers are” or even “because a few of our soldiers were very angry when a fuckwit crowed over the deaths of their own.”

I am convinced that it is the likes of this reptile film maker,and her supporters, who seem to have cropped up here suddenly,along with the usual lefty trolls,who make use of our freedoms and rights but if they were ever in power would limit same for the rest of us.

Plenty of examples ,Steyn, Bolt ,Wilders and there have been many more.

kowtow – just as point of accuracy the left and the right are usually both controlled by the far right. R u suggesting the ‘ragheads’ deserve whatever they get for being..’ragheads’? liked the goodwin reference – there i was marking the discussions milestone moment and didnt even know it. So the callous inappropriate bitch of a film maker aside – do you think Arabs or any other non white people deserve destruction of their society because they arent as developed and what level of inhumane treatment do you think is allowable?

If by “ragheads” you mean “taliban”… Yes, those inhuman cunts deserve death. BOOM. And the common people there (who through their democratic govt have requested ongoing foreign help in freeing themselves from Taliban theocracy deserve to be heard.

Officially we only went into Afghanistan to find and dismantle the people responsible for 9/11 (which was always impossible when they are sitting back at Wall St & the Pentagon ; ) – the humanitarian selling points were an afterthought. If our main concern was the safety and democratic rights of the locals then the US wouldnt be in the habit of taking down democratically elected govts around the world (that dont suit their corporate and strategic interests) over the past 50 years and supporting really nasty despots who treat their people like sht. I want to believe in our good fight but all I get is in-congruent 2 dimensional pro war propaganda. At least the centre for the New American Century were upfront with what the mission actually is – I prefer their honesty. Iran of course is next on this plan – probably before the takedown of Syria is even finished and that is a rather unpleasant end game for everyone, because if the oil hits $150 let alone $400 a barrel – our gas pumping supermarket ATM world is over, and then instead of caring about the million or so innocent Iranian women and children who are likely to die or get maimed from the conflict, we are going to be worried about our own sorry ass’s

Whats wrong with New Economics? Isnt that when you just borrow, borrow, print money and borrow some more, without actually producing anything to pay it back? (sound lik old economics to me – muldoon etc). I guess it sounds better when there is a “plan” to “invest” in “green-tech”. Because we have so much green-tech to sell. Look we know the phone number of the company in China that makes the solar panels and the wind turbines that we bought. Of course people will pay us for “our” I.P. Sounds a great idea. The kids will sort it out when the chickens come home to roost. Happy days.

talk about the taliban but thank you for your open minded conversation. Oil was $147 barrel a few years ago Scott – wakey wakey. the stated intention is regime change in Iran – possibly you should read Stratfor or New American Century or read The Grand Chessboard by Brzezinski1997. Right Left is a very boring and not very 21st century thinking, didnt realise ‘Right’ meant fundamentalist /end of conversation but I guess then I missed the 300lb republican guerilla taking up the screen. Chomsky is not a 911 truther. Business logic says Muslims lost a heck of a lot to 911 whereas US based mlitary industrialists made trillions and fulfilled their stated objectives of reorganising the ME which they couldnt have gained public backing for without 911, (oh and they dismantled the US Constitution which was an imposition to the new fascism). Considering the importance of controlling ME oil and keeping back China most patriots would probably say it was worth it – just not very honest and quite callous, But hey dont get your knickers in a twist – I dont know – how the f could I? – just the logic of vested interest would point to an inside job. Glad that you all have such certainty kind of like 6000 yr creationists are so certain too. Michale Moore just pointed out that the average Jo & Jane in Cuba get infinitely better health care than J & J in the US, that the US corporations sold out the US worker to cheap foreign sweat shops and that a mindless unlimited gun liberties for US citizens leads to a lot of people getting killed by guns – sorry that offended your sensibilities so badly. I’ll fk off now and leave you all to chant in unison and swear allegiance to the next investment banker who comes along. Just for the record if you are for upholding the principles of truth, justice, democracy and free enterprise, then we are on the same side if not the same perspective

isnt your old economics kind of embarrassing post 2008? I mean really really embarrassing. “A totally deregulated market is the best way to run things” – what kind of retarded understanding of human nature would even suggest that would work – oh a really smart bunch of powerful greedy parasites who knew it was BS but needed to sell a mindless ideology (to those slightly privileged wanting to see themselves as upward mobile and willing to push the cart) all so the super privileged could suck dry the host societies of the world. Hey but its really workings isnt it – 50% of Americans are unhappy, 25% of Australians say they are depressed, no one feels secure about the future, the rising epidemics of degenerative diseases (40% attributed to various forms of environmental pollution) keeps rising, 42 of the US States are bankrupt, Europe is fkd and the worst depression of all time is unfolding and meanwhile we cant discuss the universal scientific consensus that our biosphere is dying and its climate going out of control because the vested interests that profit from killing it can buy and confuse public perception to think its a left wing plot, so whatever we could have done for our children’s future is sabotaged by inaction. Victory for the Right I guess

Oh Laurence, your posts today barely contain your prejudices and your sweeping judgements suggest you already have a fixed position on these matters, so is there any point in debating … and come to think about it why come out of the woodwork now as a newbie to run interference for Ms Sumner-Burstyn’s so-called ‘anti-war’ defence?

You want to know what NZ is doing over there. I feel Paul Buchanan explained it rather well a couple of years ago and his article would be a good starting point to help answer your question. Is there anything that he wrote that you disagree/agree with? http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1001/S00161.htm

Excerpts for the too-lazy-to read:

So why are they there? The reasons for the NZDF dual contribution to ISAF are twofold. One has to do with the nature of the threat, and the other has to do with the nature of New Zealand’s international obligations.

Because they have no respect for universal human rights or toleration of difference, a Taliban victory over ISAF would have seriously negative repercussions for the people of Afghanistan (women and non-Pashtun ethnic minorities in particular). Its triumph will embolden jihadists worldwide and will promote instability throughout Central Asia (where there are Taliban-style insurgencies in countries such as Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, and a growing Islamicist presence amongst ethnic Uyghers in China’s Xinjiang autonomous region). It will hasten the centrifugal deterioration of Pakistan, which in turn will draw India and China’s immediate military attention given Pakistan’s status as a nuclear-armed state. At that point the US and other major actors such as Russia will feel compelled to get involved. Under such circumstances the possibility of escalation into major inter-state conflict cannot be dismissed. For its part, al-Qaeda will find renewed motivation and sanctuary should the Taliban regain control of Afghanistan, compounding the threat not only to neighbouring countries but to the rest of the world as well. Put succinctly: the repercussions of a Taliban victory will seriously threaten the prospects for a peaceful and stable world order.

That is the New Zealand stake in the conflict. New Zealand is fighting in Afghanistan not because it is confronted with an immediate threat to its national survival, but because an ISAF defeat has globally negative implications. Counter-insurgency and nation-building operations go hand-in-hand in the ISAF mission, as one provides the security conditions conducive to the success of the other. New Zealand is involved in both.

Which leads to the second point, having to do with New Zealand’s role as a global citizen. New Zealand is one of the most vocal supporters of the United Nations and multilateral military-led peacekeeping and nation-building operations.

Thanks Niggly thats all good up front adult stuff one can work with not the two dimensional war propaganda, I have read Buchanaans stuff along the way – didnt he get fired by the right side of things. We all got prejudices some more harmful than others. great when people are willing to learn beyond their prejudices. Just becoz we are part of the West does not mean we need to condone certain unacceptable behaviour