factoryconnection:tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs. They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out. They impose artificial time tables. They create nightmare-scenario warnings about "baby is too big based on the ultrasound" that has a quite-large error band. They're slaves to due dates, even though they're educated guesses. They impose needless restrictions on food and drink, so that the mother becomes completely exhausted just due to the tiny chance that she's rushed into surgery, while unconscious, and vomits but noone in the surgical suite notices and she aspirates. They share nothing about body positioning or sacral pressure to relieve back labor, to adjust baby's position, or to help labor progress. None of this is hippy-dippy, spirit-crystal nonsense... it mostly comes down to biomechanics.

They do push pitocin, which raises the need for an epidural, which raises the need for surgery. That's what they do, because their specialties are crisis management, and unfortunately they end up creating crises. We pay a lot more for all these interventions and they do provide worse outcomes.

I'd say an average amount. No suntanning, but certainly not avoiding being outside. On the plus side, it was the only mineral deficiency I had (after 6 months of basically no fruit or dairy), and though I was eating a LOT of meat, etc, my cholesterol levels were the best they've every been.

What types of meat, out of curiosity? Also, what blood type are you?

/Some people have suggested that blood type plays a role in what we should eat based on when blood types developed in human history and what humans wer doing at that point in their development i.e. hunting, nomadic, agrarian, urbanized

1. Put snakes on plane:Coronach: I've known two couples that have/are raised/raising their kids (two each) vegan. Is it just coincidence that all four kids were pale, wan, sickly, and never had as much energy as their peers, and were unable to learn as quickly or as well as their peers? All four of the parents, having been raised on a well rounded diet, were of above average intelligence, healthy, and athletic.

If an adult makes a decision to go vegan that's one thing, if a child, who ALL have different nutritional needs than adult, is forced into a dietary plan unfit for them it borders upon abuse.

By the way, HUMANS ARE OMNIVORES.

An anecdote by some random Farker doesn't make for evidence. If you think vegan diets are unfit for children, become a RD and then convince the

This becomes a problem when, like my first pup, your dog is very large. Putting his head right around cutting board height. Although it was always funny watching him sneak just the tongue up there. Like I wouldn't notice that.

ciberido:PsyLord: FTA: The idea, she explained, stemmed from an email she received from a friend and new mom, who said she simply wasn't producing enough milk and couldn't trust that those offering donor milk shared the strict vegan diet.

How would her site screen for those donating milk to be strict vegans?

Maybe she checks the "Ex-vegan Traitors" website to see if they've been excommunicated.

ajax6677:legion_of_doo: ajax6677: Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?

So you chew the food in your mouth, and then bend over your child, and pass the food from your mouth to your child's mouth?

Is that what she did in the video? That is weird for sure. I bite off pieces, chew up some of the tougher stuff, and take it out of my mouth first before feeding him with my fingers.He is 17 months now so we aren't doing that as often but he's still going strong with the breastfeeding. :)

How do you deal with the teeth? I get the bonding & such, but the teeth. My wife has a stronger opinion on that than me, of course.

I don't know when the "right age" to stop the breastfeeding is, but I do think teeth is a reasonable reason to stop.

/I don't envy my wife's delivery of the kids, but I do wonder about the psychological aspects of being pregnant & the breastfeeding since it's something I won't ever experience./also, guys don't have the whole icky monthly thing, which is another bonus.

I worked a dairy farm throughout my high school years. Not milking a dairy cow is not just painful and stressful for them, it's cruel and can severely hurt, if not kill them. Most cows love being milked. They walk, voluntarily, into the dairy barn twice a day. The only ones that don't seem to enjoy it are the new mothers with their first calves, whose udders swell painfully tight. The calf can't get enough of the milk out or gets kicked in the face if it tries, so you have to be patient. If you don't the utter can literally destroy itself. Fark those ignorant vegan hypocrites. If they actually had any real world experience instead of whinging from their first-world ivory towers, they'd change their minds pretty quickly.

I don't see dairy cows as being particularly put upon, but they do not really do it by choice. They are continually milked after having a calf, tricking their bodies into thinking they are still feeding a baby. They would pretty quickly dry up if we didn't keep milking them. Being full of milk is painful (so I'm told) so they want to relieve that pressure. Technically, they are still being "used".

I understand where the Vegans are coming from, I just don't agree. I do agree though that many can be annoying, just as many omnivores get mad that there are others out there who don't eat meat.

Do you think that only cow milk has calcium and Vitamin D? All of those things are in plants, except B-12, which is made by bacteria now. And yes, we all take vitamin supplements. Are you saying you don't? Well, I guess you do if you eat meat, you just don't know what's in them.

/You get vitamin D by going outside.//I'm fairly certain I've read more on nutrition than you have.

Isn't taking vitamin supplements admiting defeat? "Our vegan diet supplies us with all the nutrients we need so long as add these synthetic and animal-derived nutrients*!"

meat0918:Can this thread evolve into debating the distinction between dietitian and nutritionist?

Or better yet, whether it is dietitian or dietician?

A dietician is someone who has met the credentialing requirements of their State Medical Practice Act and the guidelines established by the ADA. They're actually a licensed health profession, and work under the license of a medical doctor or DO in doing what they do. At minimum, states require a Bachelors degree, some require a master's degree.

You cannot call yourself an RD or any other credential associated with it without holding a license for it. Kind of like how someone cannot call themselves a Paramedic or Nurse without having the associated license.

A "nutritionist" is a catch all. It can mean anyone from a masters level nurse with a certification in clinical nutrition, to some alt-med wackjob who got a correspondance certificate from FlyByNightMailOrderCollege.

hardinparamedic:El Dudereno: You forgot to mention the machine that goes "bing".

[www.sharinginhealth.ca image 350x277]

The machine that goes bing is totally not important. The bing is just there to annoy the nursing staff between pressing the silence button, of course. And to charge extra.

Yeah, that heartbeat line went totes flat at various times during contractions for both deliveries due to cord issues (one had it all wrapped around an arm, the other had a short cord). One kid needed a blood oxygen monitor hooked up on the way out due to the heartbeat going away, just to be sure things weren't going to be bad. Well, more bad.

Being someone who entertained the thought of a medical career, and with tons of respect for actual doctors & nurses, I didn't run around in a panic... but it was a bit concerning. Adding panic was not my job in the delivery room, though.

Do you think that only cow milk has calcium and Vitamin D? All of those things are in plants, except B-12, which is made by bacteria now. And yes, we all take vitamin supplements. Are you saying you don't? Well, I guess you do if you eat meat, you just don't know what's in them.

/You get vitamin D by going outside.//I'm fairly certain I've read more on nutrition than you have.

Isn't taking vitamin supplements admiting defeat? "Our vegan diet supplies us with all the nutrients we need so long as add these synthetic and animal-derived nutrients*!"

*But it's "certified" vegan! We pinky-swear!

I'm not a vegan, but I'd bet most people's diets are not supplying them with all the nutrients they need, vegan or not. Pretty much everyone I know takes some kind of suppliment.

Myth #4: Vegetarian diets are not appropriate for pregnant women, children or athletes.A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet can meet the nutrient needs of people from all stages of life, including pregnant and lactating women, children, and even athletes. It's just about making sure you get the nutrients you need. Pregnant women, for example, need more iron. So expectant mothers should eat plenty of iron-rich foods and include a source of vitamin C to help increase absorption (iron is not absorbed well from plant-based sources). Try these iron and vitamin C combinations: beans and salsa, broccoli and tofu, black-eyed peas and collard greens.For infants, children and adolescents, a vegetarian diet can promote normal growth. As with adults, vegan children may have slightly higher protein needs because of how the body digests plant protein. However, these needs typically can be fulfilled if the diet provides enough calories and diversity of foods.And while most competitive athletes require increased energy, protein and nutrient needs for optimal performance, there's no reason that they can't get everything they need nutritionally from plant sources. All it takes is a little diligence in menu planning.

legion_of_doo:Being someone who entertained the thought of a medical career, and with tons of respect for actual doctors & nurses, I didn't run around in a panic... but it was a bit concerning. Adding panic was not my job in the delivery room, though.

OB is the one area I have no desire to be a part of. Birth is not beautiful. It's horrific, clothes ruining, and you see the human vagina contort in ways that it was never meant to do so outside of certain niche fetish videos.

Highroller48:Vegans suffer from dual mental challenges. Firstly, they have a deluded sense of moral self-awareness, that has been heightened by peer pressure to the point where they rationalize an irraitonal belief structure in order to maintain the false self-esteem that comes with that feeling of moral superiority. Declaring themselves "vegans" makes them feel like they are somehow a mor advanced segment of society. They see those who do not follow their lifestyle as primitive and driven by instinct rather than intellect.

Did you say vegans or atheists? The same can be said for lots of causes.

Secondly..and arguably CAUSED by the first problem...is that they are unable to normalize basic biological concepts with regards to the nature of omnivourous species. Their ability to think analytically is impaired by the self-imposed moral compass. A vegan is simply incapable of accurately understanding the anthropology of humans and the natural order of things because their self-imposed hyper-morality corrupts the thought process from the start. They are convinced that "intelligence" by its very nature excluded us from the food chain, and so they dismiss out of hand the biological and physiological attributes that make us omnivores in the first place.

Every decision a human makes is natural. Including the decision to go vegan. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that intelligence alone puts humans above nature. It may turn out to be a poor decision from a natural selection standpoint, but it certainly isn't unnatural.

I'm going to upload some snarky submissions and ruin their fun if the content is not monitored.

Veganism applies to humans, and doesn't involve telling anyone to kill themselves. Whoever is running that site is apparently already having some fun, but it's got nothing to do with actual vegans.

Careful. I don't think you are vegan enough. Just might make the list.

It's messed up that the site seeks to bestow negative energy on others for their quitting veganism. Maybe it's not fair to call all vegans crazy, but the person running that site certainly is. Sorry for placing negative energy on the other nice vegan people. That website does more damage for vegans than good.

How are they controlling the actions of others, again? Are they marching to your table with their evil labcoats of oppression and forcing you to eat tofu?

No? Then quiet. They release dietary and nutrition guidelines based on evidence and guidance from scientific studies. Like everything else, you have the final say whether you want to follow them or not.

Medicare is a 527 billion dollar a year sink-hole based on personal freedom to disregard experts and the consequences there of.

The idea of feeding a cat or dog vegan is stupid. So is the idea of feeding them a healthy diet. They are designed to eat whatever the hell they can get their teeth into. If you want to feed them "as nature intended", be prepared to be grossed out. Think whole live rodents and a fair bit of carrion. Yum!

Personally I feed pets whatever standard pet food agrees with them and is recommended by my vet and don't give it a second thought.

Millennium:YixilTesiphon: Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Beef isn't raw food?

Raw beef is raw food, but it doesn't play well with the human digestive and immune systems. Trying to apply that to dogs is just plain psychotic, though: canines are well-adapted for eating raw meat.

That's just stupidity. The human digestive and immune systems play just fine with raw beef.

An anecdote by some random Farker doesn't make for evidence. If you think vegan diets are unfit for children, become a RD and then convince the ADA with peer reviewed studies. Otherwise, you're just spewing unsubstantiated nonsense.

Oh, and yeah, humans are omnivores. Good job pointing that out.

You're quite right. My spewings are unsubstantiated. What I've put forth has never, ever been witnessed by any by an RD, a pediatrician, or any dietary clinician. Neither has anything of the like ever been submitted to a peer reviewed journal nor has it been scrutinized by the dietary health community.

An anecdote by some random Farker doesn't make for evidence. If you think vegan diets are unfit for children, become a RD and then convince the ADA with peer reviewed studies. Otherwise, you're just spewing unsubstantiated nonsense.

Pray 4 Mojo:PsiChick: Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to? Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing. What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful. And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.

Or you could RTFA and find out that vegans are a-ok with breastfeeding, since the mother is capable of consenting to give her milk to her child.

Is it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

You'd have to define 'natural causes'. Being killed by a predator is a fairly natural and common way for the tastiest animals to die.I consider myself a predator of deer, turkeys, and waterfowl.Therefore, those tasty animals in my freezer died of natural causes.

hardinparamedic: noitsnot: The need to control the actions of others is very similar.

How are they controlling the actions of others, again? Are they marching to your table with their evil labcoats of oppression and forcing you to eat tofu?

No? Then quiet. They release dietary and nutrition guidelines based on evidence and guidance from scientific studies. Like everything else, you have the final say whether you want to follow them or not.

Yeah - I meant vegans, not the AND/ADA, and only the militant vegans at that. But a bunch of extra explanation would have killed the joke.

Medicare is a 527 billion dollar a year sink-hole based on personal freedom to disregard experts and the consequences there of.

Fun that you threw in some crazy talk at the end, though. So, when you retire, you're going to pay cash for all your medical expenses then? Because Medicare is just welfare queens mooching?

P.S. How is there are hard math to being a dietician? You have to do some freshman statistics?

Coronach:You're quite right. My spewings are unsubstantiated. What I've put forth has never, ever been witnessed by any by an RD, a pediatrician, or any dietary clinician. Neither has anything of the like ever been submitted to a peer reviewed journal nor has it been scrutinized by the dietary health community.

Add in the fact that people languish for years (decades) in nursing homes, kept alive by feeding tubes and ventilators, when they have no quality of life and no hope for recovery rather than engaging families in end of life and hospice care planning that is not only far more humane for the victim of a disease like alzheimers, but also better for the families and society at large, and there is a pretty huge flaw in the entire system.

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.

OMG! Wow! Yes, making use of meat that would otherwise go to waste - same as cannibalism!

Please, continue...

/such awesome kookdom

So, you wouldn't kill and eat a human, and also wouldn't eat one you just found dead. I wouldn't kill and eat another animal, or eat one I just found dead. How remarkable!

That's cause humans taste gross... and killing and eating them is illegal.

/Yeah yeah... "Meat is murder too!"//You're what 23...24?

Invoking cannibalism is just a cheesy sensationalist gambit. The idea is that for a vegan, eating fried chicken is just as abhorrent as it would be for you to eat a baby. Which I find very doubtful. Sure, I'm not a vegan, so I can't claim to know their feelings - but Occam's Razor tells me it's just hyperbole, especially since I doubt he knows what it feels like to be a cannibal.

Certainly, it is bad to harm other living things (or at least I feel that way). However, there is a continuum at work here. It's not just "people and animals = evil to harm, all else = ok to harm". I make the ordering as follows: Human*, mammal, bird, fish, insect, tree**, plant, (***).

* Many humans I can't stand, so this is iffy** I like trees better than bugs, so this is also iffy*** Micro-organisms just seem like machines, I can't really get worked up about them (hence omitted)

To cultivate vegetables and grains, so that vegetarian and vegan lifestyles can be led - this has inflicted tremendous harm on the animal kingdom (and continues to do so). You can't have all that farming, without booting out all the animals that used to live there, and clear-cutting their habitat so you can have farm fields.

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.

OMG! Wow! Yes, making use of meat that would otherwise go to waste - same as cannibalism!

Please, continue...

/such awesome kookdom

So, you wouldn't kill and eat a human, and also wouldn't eat one you just found dead. I wouldn't kill and eat another animal, or eat one I just found dead. How remarkable!

That's cause humans taste gross... and killing and eating them is illegal.

/Yeah yeah... "Meat is murder too!"//You're what 23...24?

From all reports (4th or 5th hand) that I've seen, human is basically equivalent to pork. When you kill a pig, you have to bleed it right away or the meat tastes foul. Now I'm making a conjecture based on rumor and second hand knowlege, but I'm going to guess you didn't bleed your kill right away and it spoiled your meat.

/my neighbor hunts wild pig, he confirmed the "bleed it immediately" one hunt

noitsnot:To cultivate vegetables and grains, so that vegetarian and vegan lifestyles can be led - this has inflicted tremendous harm on the animal kingdom (and continues to do so). You can't have all that farming, without booting out all the animals that used to live there, and clear-cutting their habitat so you can have farm fields.

I've read that a great majority of the Amazon forest was farmland when the Meso-Americans were at the height of their influence upon the land.

You're the jerk... jerk:StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll? It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

mike_d85:From all reports (4th or 5th hand) that I've seen, human is basically equivalent to pork. When you kill a pig, you have to bleed it right away or the meat tastes foul. Now I'm making a conjecture based on rumor and second hand knowlege, but I'm going to guess you didn't bleed your kill right away and it spoiled your meat.

That's actually what happened. I humped her corpse a few times before I got hungry.

legion_of_doo:You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll? It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

I'd guess that ship has already sailed, anyway.

Yep, it sailed.

It's easy to shiat on people from across the internet but my kids are doing fine. They even play outside and build forts in the woods. Amazing.

StaleCoffee:You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll? It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

So did that ship sail or what?

Carry on troll.

How did his kids attend school? Mine were required to have all their vaccinations, for their age, before the first day.