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Topic: Why abortion is Wrong... (Read 18346 times)

The abortion debate is one that seems to be getting louder and louder in today's society... This is my take... Abortion is wrong, in all cases except if it is endangering the life of the mother. From a religious or secular view I believe that the very Idea that this is still something we debate is rather sick. Am embryo, a fetus is not just a living thing, it is the embodiment of human potential. From the moment it is created it has the potential to be a great person. To think, to create, to love, to be loved. It has the potential to change the world, and taking that away is just sick and frankly a crime against the species as a whole. A human being is the most powerful thing in the known universe and cutting it off before it gets a chance is just not right. Please tell me I am wrong.

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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

Teenagers are potential doctors, so why don't we let them perform neurosurgery, run around in the OR, administer treatment and decide on a diagnosis?

Or in a more practical example, everyone's potentially dead. We all get there somehow, so why not be treated as corpses to get used to it? Or maaaaaybe because something has the potential for something doesn't mean it should be treated as such.

Edit: assuming everyone has some great potential (hint: it largely depends on what genes you're born with, when and where you are born), why does a clump of cell's potential trump the mother's? Or do you think pregnancy only means a woman is fat for 9 months, then is a-ok? There are serious physical risks and ways pregnancy can affect your body, not to mention the mental repercussions of being forced into pregnancy and labor.

The abortion debate is one that seems to be getting louder and louder in today's society... This is my take... Abortion is wrong, in all cases except if it is endangering the life of the mother. From a religious or secular view I believe that the very Idea that this is still something we debate is rather sick. Am embryo, a fetus is not just a living thing, it is the embodiment of human potential. From the moment it is created it has the potential to be a great person. To think, to create, to love, to be loved. It has the potential to change the world, and taking that away is just sick and frankly a crime against the species as a whole. A human being is the most powerful thing in the known universe and cutting it off before it gets a chance is just not right. Please tell me I am wrong.

I am a "law" guy...

Explain to me why you think you should legislate someone elses body?What if I think its wrong for you to take medicine to kill a virus or colony of bacteria in YOUR body, because that virus or bacteria has potential to do some good things?

It is far more wrong to legislate that a woman must carry any and all pregnancies to full term, than it is to stop an unwanted pregnancy. The problem of abortion is not about the abortion, it is about the unwanted pregnancy. Humans are animals, and thus they are predisposed to sexual intercourse, and that leads to unwanted pregnancies. Those who cannot handle this simple fact, should step out of the debate, as they live in some deluded world where stopping a pregnancy is the same as murdering a baby. Stupid.

If you break an egg open to make an omelet, and you find a little red spec in the egg, meaning the egg was fertilized, do you change the menu to chicken?

No. It is not a chicken. It is a fertilized egg.

If a woman has a fertilized egg in her body, it is not a human being. It is a fertilized egg. As time goes on, that fertilized egg starts to develop the characteristics of a human being. And I have serious problems with late-term abortions. I've seen preemies born at 24 weeks, who were real human beings, who, thanks to the wonders of modern medicine, grew up to be normal human beings, indistinguishable from the general population.

But at 6 weeks? 8? 13? The fetus is a spec. A bunch of cells. A part of a woman's body, that cannot exist outside of that woman's body.

It is a potential human being. Every month, my body releases an egg that is a potential human being. But a lot of things have to happen to reach that potential. Fertilization is one step in the process. And then there are many millions of tiny little steps that a woman's body performs before that egg becomes a person. And each of those steps takes place inside of a woman's body.

The abortion debate is one that seems to be getting louder and louder in today's society...

Is it? I haven't noticed that. Maybe I'm too busy in pursuit of my own two causes, neither of which involves reproductive rights. Well, anyway...

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This is my take... Abortion is wrong, in all cases except if it is endangering the life of the mother. From a religious or secular view I believe that the very Idea that this is still something we debate is rather sick.

I don't entirely agree with this, but I am sympathetic to the viewpoint and am not concerned to debate it. Although I am pro-choice, I can understand why some people are uncomfortable with abortion.

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Am embryo, a fetus is not just a living thing, it is the embodiment of human potential.

Right. Potential. Not a human being, but something that may become a human being. And frankly, even calling it a "potential human being" is kind of silly.

Do you know what this is?

If most pro-lifers were consistent with their views on reproduction -- that an egg becomes a human being the instant it is fertilized -- they would insist on calling it an "oak tree", which it plainly is not. No one calls it an oak tree, and if someone were to even refer to it as a "potential oak tree", we would think they were pretty weird.

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From the moment it is created it has the potential to be a great person.

It also has the potential to become a horrible person. Pro-lifers never talk about that.

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A human being is the most powerful thing in the known universe

I don't agree with that at all. I would go with either supernovas or black holes on that one, or maybe gamma-ray bursters.

It is far more wrong to legislate that a woman must carry any and all pregnancies to full term, than it is to stop an unwanted pregnancy. The problem of abortion is not about the abortion, it is about the unwanted pregnancy. Humans are animals, and thus they are predisposed to sexual intercourse, and that leads to unwanted pregnancies. Those who cannot handle this simple fact, should step out of the debate, as they live in some deluded world where stopping a pregnancy is the same as murdering a baby. Stupid.

A human embryo, is a growing human being... Individual from the Mother. It has its own genetic code and will become a , living thinking human being. Before conception, an egg or a sperm only has half a genetic code... At conception, a unique individual is created separate from the mother. Frankly your argument that Humans are animals is pretty stupid. It is already clear that there is a difference. For example, many would say owning a dog is Ok, but owning a person is not. Cows are raised for their meat... and doing the same with people would be atrocious. So you cant say that humans are animals and that makes it OK, because why that might be true it is still a human being with its own genetic code. So then please tell me how it is different then killing a child?

That potential is there to be an evil person also. I don't see that as the point. The bigger point is if you bring a life into the world you should want it and plan to support it. If not...don't do so. There are 7 billion of us now. This planet cannot support that many. We are using resources up. The planet is warming because of all of us. We would be so much better off if we were under 1 billion on the planet.

But what do we argue about in this country. NOt making birth control available and defunding Planned Parenthood.

Building upon what the others said, especially Quesi, if abortion is wrong because a potential human being is disposed of, then not being pregnant is also wrong, because a potential human is not being conceived. If abortion is wrong, every single woman of childbearing age should either be pregnant or nursing or trying to get pregnant, 24 hours a day, because nothing else is excusable. Oh, and all this needs to be done despite sex being a big sin, because we wouldn't want to modify any old, outdated moral standards just to make creating children a little easier. Which means that all women, once they hit child-bearing age (you know, around 12) should be having sinful sex all the time and then spend their pregnancy atoning for their sins. That is what god wants, I'm sure.

I personally wish that nobody ever had to have an abortion. That every child conceived was wanted and that the parents were able to care for it. I wish that we could create a world where the subject never had to come up because all the reasons for abortion had been eliminated. But as long as we concentrate on the outcomes instead of the symptoms, as long as we complain about what is happening instead of creating different circumstances and actually fixing some of the problems that lead to abortion, we will continue to have this debate.

In the United States, having a normal, healthy baby in a hospital, with an overnight stay and the delivery, etc. costs something in the region of $16-$18,000 dollars. I base this on what it cost my niece to have a baby two years ago. That is 1/2 of what the average American makes in a year. Yes, some folks are fortunate and have health insurance to cover these costs, but not all do. I have a cousin who had three children, none covered by health insurance, because she couldn't get it. She had breast cancer as a teen and could never get insurance because of pre-existing conditions. Fortunately she and her husband had good enough incomes to allow her to have those kids, but not everyone is that lucky.

Pay attention to the "why's" of the issue. Don't concentrate on the outcome, because an aborted fetus looks the same to you no matter the reason for the procedure. If you don't like that it is happening, do something in this world that makes it a better place that offers more alternatives to pregnant women than just continuing poverty, abuse, uninsurability or bleak futures.

The actual importance of the abortion issue, as outlined by the religious right, is that it helps divide. It helps define how that particular religious denomination differs from others, especially the non-religious. Division is important to religion. So important that it rhymes. The "I'm better than you and here are some of the reasons" mentality of religion, be it over abortion or gays or school prayer or anything else is all part of the game. Hence actually fixing things like the reasons for abortion is low on religions list of to-do's.

When two or more religions agree on any given issue, like abortion, they find other reasons to dislike each other, albeit it more privately. Baptists and the Church of England can walk hand-in-hand on the issue of abortion, but if those two denominations finally got rid of everyone else, then they would start shooting each other, because division is important to religion. And once the world gets down to one religion, the adherents will start finding reasons to hate each other over different interpretations of biblical verses, because division will continue to be important.

The last believer will win. And die. And find that there is no heaven after all.

A human embryo, is a growing human being... Individual from the Mother. It has its own genetic code and will become a , living thinking human being. Before conception, an egg or a sperm only has half a genetic code... At conception, a unique individual is created separate from the mother.

You're not thinking about what you write. You say "will become a living thinking human being" - we all agree with that, emphasis on BECOME. There is no separation prior to birth - you may not like the word, but "parasitic" comes to mind. And yes, I've given birth to two little parasites myself.

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Frankly your argument that Humans are animals is pretty stupid. It is already clear that there is a difference. For example, many would say owning a dog is Ok, but owning a person is not. Cows are raised for their meat... and doing the same with people would be atrocious. So you cant say that humans are animals and that makes it OK, because why that might be true it is still a human being with its own genetic code. So then please tell me how it is different then killing a child?

Not at all clear on how "animal" equates to "can be owned". No one stated or even implied any such thing. (As an aside, if your dog runs away, never to return, do you still own him?) I understand your position, but it's wrong. We ARE animals, just a single species among many. You're stuck on semantics in this case, that doesn't make it stupid. You don't get to stir a bunch of other nonsense into a refutation of what wasn't said in the first place. No one is suggesting raising people for meat.

I understand your position and objections, I really do. But think about this, if you would: under no other circumstances can MY body being co-opted against my will for the benefit of another. I can not be legally required to donate blood to my own already-alive-and-apart-from-me offspring for whom I am obviously responsible (of course I would, but that's not the point) for any reason. The abortion issue is the only case where anyone tries to argue that a person is no longer entitled to autonomy.

And just to keep things interesting, the bible itself states that life begins at first breath, not at conception. Twice.

Yep, this is all about the 'potential' human not actual humans. We have already seen that there is some distance between a zygote and a new born baby. Up to half of all zygotes fail to implant and are washed away. After that the attrition rate decreases but there is nothing like a guarantee that any one zygote will make it.

Now, once implanted in the womb spontaneous abortions can happen - ones done by nature not by people. If the foetus dies for example, it might well be spontaneously aborted. This can happen well into the 24 weeks plus time period where, with ,lots of effort we can keep anew born alive.

So, what I am saying is that the chances for an individual zygote are fairly small though, of course they get better as time goes on. Thus, from nature's point of view, there is no way to say that any particular zygote of foetus is a human - not until they approach birth anyway.

Now, I agree with other posters that abortion is definitely best avoided - as any surgical procedure is - and that family planning provides means to avoid getting pregnant in the first place is much to be preferred - if a person can afford it. (In the UK is is free on the NHS) However even this can fail and for those can't afford / manage another child surely it is reasonable that they can have an abortion. It just needs to be a last resort and not a regular means of family planning.

Finally, one thing that is really important - women's bodies are their own. It is not for men to tell them what to do with them and especially it is not for ministers (in dresses or not) to tell them. In a democracy women would have the right to this treatment if it is necessary and they should not be prevented by law. It should be borne in mind that women who are members of churches or religions where they are told not to have abortions will clearly not be doing so and therefore this will only apply to those who have no religion or where their religion does not ban it.

Mhaberling, did you start this thread from the religious perspective or a moral one?

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

I'm inclined to think that some people are overreacting to mhaberling's statement. It's certainly true that humans are members of the animal kingdom, but I don't think he was arguing about that in the first place. To me, it looks like he was talking about treating humans like animals. And that's just as true as the other thing. We don't raise other humans in crowded pens to be butchered for meat, nor do we hunt other humans for food or to display as trophies, nor do we generally tolerate treating humans as property to be owned.

Indeed, if we call another person an animal, it's usually a pretty vicious insult. And that's really the point. We may be classified as animals from a purely biological perspective, but from a social and cultural perspective, we're anything but. So the argument that humans are biologically animals and using that to justify things like abortion - which are essentially socio-cultural in nature - is sophistry, and weak sophistry at that. That includes the argument that humans are predisposed towards having sex because of being animals - while true, it is also beside the point.

However, arguing that humans are special and thus that we should never consider birth control or abortion is silly. We may treat other humans as being different than animals, but in practice, "out of sight, out of mind". There are lots of actually living people who end up eking out a miserable and brutal existence, and who ultimately die of preventable causes. Like hunger. Like diseases which we have vaccines and cures for. And that's not just in the various third-world countries. We have people in America who suffer from malnutrition and easily treated diseases. Who live in conditions of squalor, barely able to survive, and ignored by the very people who are weeping and moaning about the "murder of innocent babies".

I'd take their concerns about unborn fetuses a lot more seriously if they put half as much concern, or even a quarter as much, into the people who are currently living. One of the statistics about abortion which is almost never talked about by those who oppose it is the fact that the vast majority of all abortions are done for economic reasons. Not social, not cultural, not biological, but because the parents (or the mother) can't afford to raise the child. And adoption isn't a good alternative. It suffers from the same "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" problem as I mentioned before. Adoption agencies are perennially underfunded and overworked, largely ignored by the same people who oppose abortion and tout adoption.

So, honestly, I'd take mhaberling's argument about human specialness a lot more seriously if the social conservatives who are so opposed to abortion would take steps to deal with the economic problems that ultimately cause most people to have abortions. Ensure that people get sex education so they know what to do and not do, ensure that people have access to birth control so they aren't chained to their biology, and that would probably eliminate the need for at least two-thirds of all abortions right there.

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

So, honestly, I'd take mhaberling's argument about human specialness a lot more seriously if the social conservatives who are so opposed to abortion would take steps to deal with the economic problems that ultimately cause most people to have abortions. Ensure that people get sex education so they know what to do and not do, ensure that people have access to birth control so they aren't chained to their biology, and that would probably eliminate the need for at least two-thirds of all abortions right there.

Definitely well said! I have thought this a lot of the Catholic Church in Europe who rant on about abortion but offer not useful help to those who might keep the child is they had help. It certainly isn't any good in our modern society sitting on the sidelines and telling others what they should do. People who do that really do need to go and help out themselves.

I'm inclined to think that some people are overreacting to mhaberling's statement. It's certainly true that humans are members of the animal kingdom, but I don't think he was arguing about that in the first place. To me, it looks like he was talking about treating humans like animals. And that's just as true as the other thing. We don't raise other humans in crowded pens to be butchered for meat, nor do we hunt other humans for food or to display as trophies, nor do we generally tolerate treating humans as property to be owned.

Indeed, if we call another person an animal, it's usually a pretty vicious insult. And that's really the point. We may be classified as animals from a purely biological perspective, but from a social and cultural perspective, we're anything but. So the argument that humans are biologically animals and using that to justify things like abortion - which are essentially socio-cultural in nature - is sophistry, and weak sophistry at that. That includes the argument that humans are predisposed towards having sex because of being animals - while true, it is also beside the point.

I don't really disagree with much of what you say here, BUT: the only person who suggested anything about humans being raised for food is mhaberling himself. While I agree that humans are biologically correctly classified as animals, and that this by itself is not enough to support a pro-choice position, it's certainly part and parcel of the bigger argument here. Not "the point" but certainly part of it.

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So, honestly, I'd take mhaberling's argument about human specialness a lot more seriously if the social conservatives who are so opposed to abortion would take steps to deal with the economic problems that ultimately cause most people to have abortions. Ensure that people get sex education so they know what to do and not do, ensure that people have access to birth control so they aren't chained to their biology, and that would probably eliminate the need for at least two-thirds of all abortions right there.

Also agree with your big picture point here - correct measures would solve most of the problem, and social conservatives would get further if they were interested in solving those problems. Every indication to date is that they are not interested at all, leaving us with the alternative approach of changing one mind at a time. Or at least cracking that one mind open to the views held by people who disagree with him. I'm not actually trying to change his mind, but I'm really hoping we can get to a place when mhaberling understands the other side's positions.

Genesis grants humans "dominion over" all the non-human animals in the world. Even when I was still a believer, this is one of the things I was convinced that people had gotten wrong - I always took it to mean that we humans had been given a responsibility toward them, sort of like that of a monarch to his subjects, not a license to do whatever the hell we wanted to them. For some reason, this was a controversial view.

Even when I was actively Catholic, I wasn't very good at it.

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

It is far more wrong to legislate that a woman must carry any and all pregnancies to full term, than it is to stop an unwanted pregnancy. The problem of abortion is not about the abortion, it is about the unwanted pregnancy. Humans are animals, and thus they are predisposed to sexual intercourse, and that leads to unwanted pregnancies. Those who cannot handle this simple fact, should step out of the debate, as they live in some deluded world where stopping a pregnancy is the same as murdering a baby. Stupid.

A human embryo, is a growing human being... Individual from the Mother. It has its own genetic code and will become a , living thinking human being. Before conception, an egg or a sperm only has half a genetic code... At conception, a unique individual is created separate from the mother. Frankly your argument that Humans are animals is pretty stupid. It is already clear that there is a difference. For example, many would say owning a dog is Ok, but owning a person is not. Cows are raised for their meat... and doing the same with people would be atrocious. So you cant say that humans are animals and that makes it OK, because why that might be true it is still a human being with its own genetic code. So then please tell me how it is different then killing a child?

Humans are animals, to deny that is actually fairly silly. Why would you do that? Do you feel it is necessary to say that a human is NOT an animal just so that you can place it in a more important position among species for the abortion argument? I never said that humans deserve to be treated like we treat many animals, but humans are animals, that is all there is to it. It is a species of animal life on this planet, called human.

Abortions are one of the tragedies of life. I agree, Mhaberling, that an embryo is the embodiment of human potential. My wife has a dried rose in her bible from an ectopic pregnancy 17 years ago stopped at about 1 month. She can begin to cry anytime thinking about it.

I will always counsel a woman asking my advice that the embryo is the most important thing. But I will never condemn her in any way for doing what she feels she must for the reasons she has. Do you not understand that a woman will do whatever she must, whether it's to fight for a baby's survival, or end a pregnancy that she knows she cannot go through with? If you think that abortion is wrong, then do not assist anyone who comes to you for support if they may consider options you disagree with. I'm sorry, but the prolife ' holier than thou' attitude sickens me. I'm not saying you are in this boat, but I do not like that some can't see the sad compassion necessary for a woman who must make the choice.

What exactly is the practical and logistical method you have in mind for effectively implementing what you think is right, OP?

The big question is a question of feasibility. Is there an effective cost-efficient way to implement making abortion illegal? What are the side-effects of such a law? Do the pros outweigh the cons? Is there something else you could spend this time and money on?

The abortion debate is one that seems to be getting louder and louder in today's society... This is my take... Abortion is wrong, in all cases except if it is endangering the life of the mother. From a religious or secular view I believe that the very Idea that this is still something we debate is rather sick. Am embryo, a fetus is not just a living thing, it is the embodiment of human potential. From the moment it is created it has the potential to be a great person. To think, to create, to love, to be loved. It has the potential to change the world, and taking that away is just sick and frankly a crime against the species as a whole. A human being is the most powerful thing in the known universe and cutting it off before it gets a chance is just not right. Please tell me I am wrong.

You are wrong. If humans are the most powerful thing in the known universe, please explain how we are so easily killed by nature.

Humans are animals, nothing more, and there are way too many of us. The vast majority of humans contribute nothing meaningful, merely draining resources.

A human embryo, is a growing human being... Individual from the Mother.

Ok then it should have no problem surviving on it's own outside of the mother, right? It's not abortion, it's just a very early adoption. It's unfortunate that none of these children survive the adoption process.

The abortion debate is one that seems to be getting louder and louder in today's society...

Wrong. It's always been loud. It's just one side always quieted the other with nonsense or with actuality. You know how many abortion topics are on this website alone? Too many to count. Years of topics. It's never been quiet. Please with such rhetoric about it getting louder and louder: it's always been defeaning to the ears.

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This is my take... Abortion is wrong, in all cases except if it is endangering the life of the mother.

Most people who are pro-choice are not actually for abortion. Abortion is more than just "abortion", it's also about a woman's right. Like, if she is raped, oh say by her father, that she has a right to not have the child especially if the girl is a child herself. That's just one horrifying example among many.

There's also the point-of-view that a woman, like a man, has a right to do with their body as they please. With certain religions telling their members that using contraception is just the same as having an abortion, or worse, and that they will burn in hell for using it, sort of drives safe-sex out the window.

Also, how about over-population? Back in the day, we had diseases with no treatment, and people warring with others to take their land at a constant, and other things to help on population control but the more people there are the less hospitable this planet will be.

But let's not take such things into consideration. Abortion is wrong 100% of the time except when harm comes to the mother.

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From a religious or secular view I believe that the very Idea that this is still something we debate is rather sick.

That's because people like you think the conversation is over 'cause you're right, and everyone else is wrong.

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Am embryo, a fetus is not just a living thing, it is the embodiment of human potential. From the moment it is created it has the potential to be a great person. To think, to create, to love, to be loved. It has the potential to change the world, and taking that away is just sick and frankly a crime against the species as a whole.

I find you to be a crime against the species as a whole but you don't see me complaining like a little baby about it.

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A human being is the most powerful thing in the known universe and cutting it off before it gets a chance is just not right. Please tell me I am wrong.

A single woman is born with cells to produce hundreds of thousands of eggs. A male can create billions of sperm. A single couple could populate a small city in one generation and the largest in the word in two, and the planet in three. That is all POTENTIAL human life.

A single woman is born with cells to produce hundreds of thousands of eggs. A male can create billions of sperm. A single couple could populate a small city in one generation and the largest in the word in two, and the planet in three. That is all POTENTIAL human life.

A female is born with all the eggs she is ever going to have, not the cells to make these eggs.