Please, the last thing on earth I want to do is be a "troll"! In a short time I have grown very comfortable expressing myself on the electro-music.com forum, and I felt it would be OK to rant on the subject that has caused me increasing concern for about a year now. Reading back, I can see how you might misunderstand my little rant as someone trolling for attention, but I assure you that is not the case. I was simply upset about the situation and venting here was very helpful in getting out the frustration and helping me feel better about it.

As always, I appreciate your responses despite some differences of opinion and I'm happy to be a (mostly) positive contributing member of the electro-music.com community._________________"Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz

Nobody doubts this OS-update issue is a real one while there is every reason to doubt Tom will actually make a sister-site on a Mac-only social networking thingy. For one thing that plan is quite silly, for another JKS said what he did quoting Tom._________________Kassen

Yes (I think) it was aimed at me, stupid really because the original reference was supposed to be a joke (anybody knows that both me and Andrew are always bickering about Macs and PC's). However, Justin's comment just backfired on him and so forth made Justin look like the troll instead!

Okay I'm not 100% innocent, I was a little miffed- but only because I have to repeat this nonsense all the time, with people all over England. I had a similar problem with MS Word Vs Word for Mac recently. Originally the people who sent me the document- which i was having serious problems with, told that _I_ should write to Apple venting the faults in the document. However probing a little deeper revealed that the actual reason that the document was fucked, was in fact their fault. (the document was actually locked- by them, to stop people messing with it!)_________________ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.

Yes, my comment was *aimed* at v-un-v,
ranting is great (especially if it feels good), and
labeling your own response with a counterpoint of enlightenment is the politically correct way of having fun with such a religious argument. To that end, operating systems are inherently polytheistic, because they don't serve the same purpose, but may serve multiple people. Unless your a Cylon.

However probing a little deeper revealed that the actual reason that the document was fucked, was in fact their fault. (the document was actually locked- by them, to stop people messing with it!)

Depending on the version you might be able to crack it open, then send them the undo/version history. There's a reason why those documents are so large and the "locking" isn't generally implemented from the perspective that somebody would actually try cracking it. This would then be funny.

That's just cruel. The idea is that you aim at the apple, not at the person. Anybody holding a apple and making a easy target of themselves is trying to help you prove your marksmanship, you shouldn't treat them like that.

Yes I quite agree- but Android will be just as fiddly with the current website. However it is understandable considering that the technology for the past 10 years or so has been geared for the mouse.

Much looking forward to Android.

Well, Flash is. Html, if written correctly, should be perfectly fine to navigate without a mouse (for example using Lynx) or even using a screenreader, no graphics and no mouse.

HTML is expressly meant not to make assumptions about the user's interface, if a certain page needs a mouse, screen resolution or a person who can see at all it's simply a badly designed page, at least from that perspective._________________Kassen

Sure, there are plenty of Flash applets that will bring down the most powerful of computers The Iphone has no fan on is on a battery so it won't have a chance competing with PC's for cycles.

To be sure; you *can* write highly efficient Flash but most Flash designers aren't also experts in optimising for speed. I think Apple did the smart thing dropping it over the losing battle of trying to run badly written Flash (which on some days seems 95% of all Flash). We don't use Flash here anyway.

Personally I hope Iphones and browsing on the Wii (etc) will become more popular and will force web-designers to get back to HTML's original ideas._________________Kassen

Is there some service that acts like VNC, where your remote device is simply a viewer/control mechanism that peers into a computer that is doing all the graphical grunt work? Might solve 90% of your problems, though it would have it's limits when it comes to sounds/video & interaction timing.

In fact, VNC will work for you. You don't need a special app for your iPhone, there's a java port that vnc can serve (as in port 5556 or such). And java is a bit more promiscuous than flash.

It's a trade of CPU against bandwith so Apple's bed-mates in the telecom business won't be pleased (or may be, but then the users won't...).

I kinda like it as a idea, this will put a stop to inefficient Flash very quickly indeed.

Another good method might be taking some representative computer on a representative connection and holding the web-designer under water while the page loads. Might be a bit low-tech but sometimes low-tech solutions are best._________________Kassen

trying to wade though a catalogue site like Habitat for eg, is like having to swim through treacle. No fun at all.

Hey speaking about trolling I see I missed an opportunity try a computer instead of a Mac

Seriously though ... the flash on the Habitat site (the one I found, maybe another one .. this one had furniture and lamps & stuff, semi trendy for the masses or something) was pretty snappy actually ... it needs a bit of power, but on this recent laptop the fan doesn't spin up for it. On a three year old one things do get a bit noisy, but it still works.

The idea of flash is based upon slow connections and relatively high performing computers, well that's how it started at least, vector graphics rendered at the client side with the added benefit of interaction at little extra programming cost.

It is a good concept I think, especially for wireless devices And I've seen some well done flash stuff, but for most sites I just instruct addblock to kill attention catchers._________________Jan

Hey speaking about trolling I see I missed an opportunity try a computer instead of a Mac

Bachus (I think) pointed out a while ago that V-un-V keeps reporting a far less pleasant computing experience then the non-Mac users he's debating with. He's talking about computer in the same tone that I imagine I would if I had to use OSX... yet he keeps disagreeing. Funny stuff.

As for Flash; optimising for low bandwidth and high CPU makes sense, yes... but only as long as the CPU cost stays in a reasonable range. I also think that a lot of the time content providers don't make a sensible weighing of Flash v.s. HTML._________________Kassen

Still, for all the bitching about the horrible, world-domination-driven company Apple has become, the fact remains that the proportion of time I spend using my Mac productively to the time I spend fighting with the operating system is exceptionally high, higher than XP, definitely higher than Vista and likely some measure higher than Linux as well. By that standard, if (as v-un-v quipped) the Mac is a product while the PC is a computer, it might lead one to the conclusion that the Mac "product" is something of an advancement over a "normal" computer.

Apple is a corporation, yes, and whenever you're dealing with a corporation, you're a damn fool if you don't keep your eyes wide open and question everything they say. But it is possible to obtain benefits and services from corporations without being a complete sucker.

So, frankly, I have to laugh when people get mad because Apple the company doesn't live up to Apple the hippie flower child depicted in the commercials. You actually took an advertisement seriously? Well, the joke is on you then.

Your "flowerchild" note strikes me as quite insightful but I disagree with the notion that turning something into a "product" improves it.

By that reasoning McDonnalds should have the best food, better then using fresh ingredients yourself. Growing your own vegetables should be a sure-fire way to get crap. Attending free live-performances would never measure up to buying a CD or better yet downloading DRM-enabled audio files. I don't subscribe to that idea

I don't think Apple's are any more or less a "product" then Dell, AlienWare, HP or IBM and none of them can hold a candle to what you get if you are a expert and build something yourself based on your own needs. What Apple does have is good "branding" which is a very different thing. Branding doesn't equate to quality as McDonalds is proving.

But sure, let's compare. As you know I run XP on my music laptop. In the past year I spend exactly zero hours on it configuring the OS.No updates, not even a single driver install, I set it up once and it just keeps working. How much did you spend on your OSX in the same period? Of course originally it took me half a week of solid work to get it like that but I looked into what it'd take to get OSX in a similar state and as far as I can find and according to our local OSX wizard Stein that's not even possible. The time spend administrating the OS is only relevant if you can use this time to get it like you want it to have. I haven't, for example, spend a single second administrating the OS of my Gamecube but on the other hand it hasn't become a dedicated audio workstation either. As far as I can find I couldn't get OSX like I want it to be at all so the whole question of how much time it would take if this were possible is kinda moot to me._________________Kassen

Once again; what we are lacking is somebody with a deep knowledge of all three OS's because we are barking up entirely different trees.

The issues I have with the OSX windows manager wouldn't be there for somebody who has used the non-multitasking versions of Apple's OS... Most Apple users here have probably never even seen a XP install like mine (nor did I ever see a OSX install done by a real expert). This is leading to us talking about entirely different parts of several elephants. Things like Stein remarking a few days ago that it's preferable to install Linux on a Mac because on a PC it always becomes "a mess" (according to him) shows this._________________Kassen

By putting it that way, I was trying to disagree with the dichotomy of "product" vs "computer."

Your XP machine is certainly the exception -- by keeping it off the 'net (a wise move) you're free from the need to update and break things. Mac OSX updates in the same time period... well, I keep myself patched but I've been very lucky overall (knocking on my laminated particle board desk) -- I don't recall a single case in the last year where an update did not simply just work after a reboot. (I have not updated to 10.5... too cheap to drop $129 on it and who needs those damn stacks anyway?)

The worst thing that happens to me is that sometimes CoreAudio goes a bit wonky when I plug in the USB mic for dictation and locks up the machine... but I can unplug the mic, reboot (which takes all of 30 seconds) and it's fine. That hardly qualifies as a "fight" with the OS... but I've spent well below 5 minutes total over the last year on that issue... which is intolerable of course

I'm also fortunate in that my software of choice doesn't take much OS-level customization to work well.

I think it's one thing to examine the OS and make the rational decision (as you have) that it isn't for you. I respect that. The garden-variety mac h8r, on the other hand, usually has little more to say than "Apple isn't all that its hype says it is." Well, bloody news flash there. Front page of NY Times: "Corporate hype proves false" -- did you need to be told? Come ON, people. And I really laugh at the fools who then settle for M$'s total crap engineering "because at least we know up front it's crap... whereas with Apple they tell us it's perfect and that's a lie."

Only an idiot believes Apple's promises. But you can look rationally at OSX and decide that it works for you, too... as I do.

but I disagree with the notion that turning something into a "product" improves it.

Macintosh was never 'turned into a product' because it already was a product (from the word go). The Sony Walkman was a product, so was the iPod. The iPod of course, an mp3 player turned into a 'product', and of course turning an mp3 player into a product improved it (can you deny that?), the iPod has sold in its millions! An improvement right? The product works?

Kassen wrote:

By that reasoning McDonnalds should have the best food, better then using fresh ingredients yourself. Growing your own vegetables should be a sure-fire way to get crap. Attending free live-performances would never measure up to buying a CD or better yet downloading DRM-enabled audio files. I don't subscribe to that idea

Macdonalds don't necessarily have the 'best' food as far as I'm concerned, but to say that it isn't 'fresh' is a ridiculous argument. But what the blazes have macdonalds got to do with computers? Alright, it's a food 'product', but comparing a hamburger to a computer is...., well I'm just lost for words

Where this argument could go is that a hamburger is actually a very good source of protein and minerals. Many people prefer to buy fast food because they simply don't have the time to 'grow their own'. I prefer a Mac, because I plug it in, and it works. I can't be arsed to sit round working out why my homemade PC is just displaying a blue screen when I've got work to get on with

Kassen wrote:

I don't think Apple's are any more or less a "product" then Dell, AlienWare, HP or IBM and none of them can hold a candle to what you get if you are a expert and build something yourself based on your own needs. What Apple does have is good "branding" which is a very different thing. Branding doesn't equate to quality as McDonalds is proving.

Well yes I agree, but love em or hate them, Macs DO look better than these examples right? I really like good design- damn I did a degree in this!! I love things that work well. I guess I dislike PC's because they run Windows, not that windows doesn't work, it just doesn't work well. Last night I had a go with Vista, for the first time- even the command prompt now has built in help, but essentially it is just really horrible. All those times of walking into PC World, just to see these huge monitors displaying what I initially thought were moving advertisements, to my horror- no this is the real deal. This is what you get when you buy Vista- an eye candy hell farm!!!! (and they thought that Apple were "flower-power" "Flower-unpower" ).

But here I am, about to get forced into a job, where secretaries go "Oooh don't know about that apple stuff- they look nice, but I don't get them". What is there to get?? And then on the other hand, I have to sit down with a computer loaded with Vista (and a nice pickie of Steve Ballmer staring down at me) and I'm supposed to get on with the flower-power, eye candy from hell PC. Sorry I'm ranting now, but you do get my drift right?

Kassen wrote:

But sure, let's compare. As you know I run XP on my music laptop. In the past year I spend exactly zero hours on it configuring the OS.No updates, not even a single driver install, I set it up once and it just keeps working. How much did you spend on your OSX in the same period? Of course originally it took me half a week of solid work to get it like that but I looked into what it'd take to get OSX in a similar state and as far as I can find and according to our local OSX wizard Stein that's not even possible.

This is where I get really confused Kassen, I really don't understand what you mean. Perhaps yes, I can understand you trying to rip the guts out of OS X so it will run really fast on an ancient G3 processor, but an Intel Core Duo? As for setting up OS X, it's as simple as dropping an application from a dmg, opening it and pressing 'go'. There is no 'setting up' as you speak. The best move Apple made was chucking those f**king PPC chips in the trash! Intel rock!

But this is again all getting really silly, because my original argument was never that my product is better than your product (although to call Dell and HP 'products' is really funny because they remind me of those awful white 'go faster' training pumps so beloved of people who shop at Matalan (yes go on, I am a snob too! :p :lol), but more to do with the fact that Windows is everywhere in the UK, and Windows has almost a monopoly on the British workforce- and I hate that. That's what my argument is really about!

Kassen wrote:

The time spend administrating the OS is only relevant if you can use this time to get it like you want it to have. I haven't, for example, spend a single second administrating the OS of my Gamecube but on the other hand it hasn't become a dedicated audio workstation either. As far as I can find I couldn't get OSX like I want it to be at all so the whole question of how much time it would take if this were possible is kinda moot to me.

I kind of get the feeling that this isn't really about OS X, but more of an identity thing, about your identity Kas (in fact it's not just you mate- but virtually everyone I know who is nuts about Linux are really, well "radical", I don't really mean radical in a good way- although I respect them as being radical, if you know what I mean?). It's like you are just trying every stalling tactic just to say "I'm interested, but, no thanks (because it doesn't fit with my punk-linux image )". Am I right or am I right??

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