God deserves the credit - I'll say He just sort of brought some light into my hard head today to sort'a see "hey, wait a minute - why not parts of both"? Doesn't that leave room for more of the big picture? It's sort of like Jesus was a man, but He was also the Son of God, a part of the Divine. No need to fight over which one was He. He was both! They could literally touch Him, but within Him also existed Things that were not "of this world".

Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1cor15.46

Good stuff you all. These words say it all for me. We understand things first via the natural and then we hopefully see the spiritual.

cp

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For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Zeek

Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1cor15.46

Good stuff you all. These words say it all for me. We understand things first via the natural and then we hopefully see the spiritual.

The idea that the kingdom of God is not here until Jesus, like he was before he died and rose again, is on a literal throne in the same Jerusalem that today is in the Sinai peninsula, though a popular idea, is so missing out on the teaching of the New Testament I wonder somewhat where to begin a defense that being born again is the entrance to the kingdom. For one thing, you could read the last two chapters of the Bible, Revelation 21 and 22, which are a sort of summary of the entire Bible. We are to "Behold, I make all things new," as Jesus says, not, "I make all new things." In these chapters we taught concerning: The New Jerusalem, The New Temple, The New Covenant, The New Israel, and The New Creation.

What Daniel reveals the advent of God's kingdom in the dream of the head of gold, which as Nebuchadnezzar, after humbling perceived, "Gods Kingdom rules over all." There it is called, "The Stone cut out without hands," that is becoming, "a great mountain that fills all the earth." The mountains are kingdoms. This was brought forth a couple of millennia ago with the Revelation of Jesus Christ smashing the Roman Kingdom and replacing it with Christendom, a carnal first move that will be surpassed, perhaps in our years, with a more spiritual version.

If we are to be taught by anyone about the kingdom, surely first would be Jesus. "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.'" (John 18:36 ASV) Now consider the following three phrases where Jesus acknowledged that entering the kingdom, understood by his disciples as "salvation" was a right equivalence: "'Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God'. And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looking upon them saith, 'With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God'." (Mark 10:24-27, ASV) If it is true for you, whoever you may be, that you are not in the kingdom of God, be confident God's will is for you to be quickened to live by His Spirit. The experience of regeneration, or being "born again" is the testimony of so many people. You may have this work of God in you too. He, "Rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the forgiveness of sins..." (Col 1:13-14, CLV)

One of the more glorious things I've experienced is that the Holy Spirit the Father sends in the name of Jesus is both The Realm and The Ruler of The Kingdom of God. That is why it is so called. The Kingdom of God is just God! Jesus suffered and died so that we could be brought into a direct experience of God, nothing between us and Him, unmediated by any other being. That is why the professional religious elite with titles of honor from other men claiming they are themselves the "headship" ministry is another kingdom blasphemously supplanting the Only LORD who bought them. The true Head of the body is present and directly quickening each member of His body. That is why they're called "His body."

"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit..." (Romans 14:17, ASV) Some think only when the dimension of the physical (the same in which is food and drink for our body) is inescapably subjugated planet-wide to the manifest presence of God, then His kingdom has come. (Regardless of doctrinaire denials by the inexperienced) not only is that realm sometimes entered into already by saints, the fact that, "the kingdom of God is inside you..." (Lk 17.21) is a clue to how it is accomplished. In 2 Pet 1.3-11 "...the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..." is more fully explained, particulars built one upon another that this entrance NOW may, "...be richly supplied unto you." This kingdom is described as our becoming, "...participants of the divine nature." (v.4) The ladder rungs of this entrance, climbed with "all diligence," are ennumerated in this passage as "faith ...virtue ...knowledge ...self-control ...endurance ...devoutness ...brotherly-fondness ...love." (vs. 5-7)

your brother, James Rohde

« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 05:45:06 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Amen James........I'm not waiting for Him to be Lord, He's Lord NOW, as He was proclaimed so 2000 years ago by Peter in Acts 2, and if there is a Kingdom present, there must also be as a necessity, a KING. Blessings....

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

ReFormer and Card. Let's say James, your post entails the spiritual aspect. I agree there's a lot to what you write, including what I included in my earlier post regarding the Kingdom of God within believers -and yes, of course, Yesu is Master now and King of kings.

Do you believe there will also be a time when we are LITERALLY any more in Jesus' presence than we are now? I.e., will you ever see His glorified immortal body with your glorified immortal eyes? If so, that's part of where I'm saying 'both'. If not, then right now I see it s/w differently, as I'm sure I can't fully explain it, but I believe we are yet to experience an even "more real", more miraculous, more direct manifestation of Jesus' presence than we now do. A next age(s) when the lamb is lying with the lion, etc. A time when our faith will have become sight.

"...Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:11

ReFormer and Card. Let's say James, your post entails the spiritual aspect. I agree there's a lot to what you write, including what I included in my earlier post regarding the Kingdom of God within believers -and yes, of course, Yesu is Master now and King of kings.

Do you believe there will also be a time when we are LITERALLY any more in Jesus' presence than we are now? I.e., will you ever see His glorified immortal body with your glorified immortal eyes? If so, that's part of where I'm saying 'both'. If not, then right now I see it s/w differently, as I'm sure I can't fully explain it, but I believe we are yet to experience an even "more real", more miraculous, more direct manifestation of Jesus' presence than we now do. A next age(s) when the lamb is lying with the lion, etc. A time when our faith will have become sight.

"...Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:11

God's blessings to your and yours, James.

We will always see more of God as we go from faith to faith IMO.

Seems like the was, is and is to come is always in play. We were saved, are saved and will be saved. We have experienced so much and we are experiencing so much and we will experience so much.

Will there ever be a time when we will be able to sit back and say that we have seen it all?

Chris

Christ comes THE SECOND TIME... UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM. How does that translate into a physical manifestation of not only The Messiah but of "a city" and "twelve thrones", etc??

Hi Chris,

I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I am leaning toward the fact that Jesus came and took back with him the saints. This would be after paul died but John was still alive. I am still trying to piece all of this together. There are so many scriptures that speak of this.

Hi CHB,

I don't know. I used to think that perhaps there was a difference pre-cross and post-cross, but I'm not so sure I believe that anymore. Now I lean more toward believing that when we die (physically) we all go to be with the Lord and that is the way that it has always been.

Quote from: CHB

My problem with this is, what is next? Is Christ going to return with his saints and set up an earthly kingdom? Some scripture does point to this. Or has the kingdom that Jesus talked about already happened?

I suddenly realized a few years ago when I was still at BT that we were making the same mistake that the Jews made in looking for a physical kingdom. I believe that the kingdom is spiritual and that it contains "a city" (the New Jerusalem) that we are to enter into (as believers are that city).

Quote from: CHB

If so, what will happen next, is my question? Will Christ return and resurrect everyone and that will be the "White Throne Judgment". Everyone that is dead and alive at that time will become immortal.

Christ may, indeed, return to gather and bring back with Him (to the Father) all of those who "remain" (both the dead and the living - after a spiritual truth), but I do not see Him setting up a physical kingdom on this earth the way that many teach. To me the "thousand year" reign of Christ comes after a spiritual truth, which has to do with "THE DAY" of the Lord. There also appears to be a reign of "death" associated with "a thousand years" which is called "yesterday" when it is past. I see this as ONE DAY that is divided between "the night" and "the day" (are there not 12 hours in THE DAY?? ).

Quote from: CHB

Or, will we be changed after we die and go on to be with Christ and things continue as they are? This doesn't sound quite right to me. I do believe there will be an end to all things as they are now. Everything will be changed, not destroyed.

Would appreciate your opinion on this. Thanks.

CHB

The first part seems to be true now, we die and go to be with the Lord and things continue on as they are (here).

However, there must come a time when "all flesh" is destroyed and things do not continue the way that they are now. Paul seems to refer to this as "the end" and we know that all things had their beginning in Christ and all things shall also have their end in Him, who IS "the beginning and the end".

What I came to realize a few years ago that made me question so many of "the truths" that I held at the time, when I was at BT, was that if I believe that there is going to be a physical kingdom set up on this earth for "a thousand years" and it is the saints who are resurrected/gathered first to rule and reign with Christ in this kingdom and the rest of humanity will not be resurrected unto "after the millennium" then I am disregarding the words of Christ who very clearly said that in the time of harvest he would send forth his angels telling them "GATHER YE TOGETHER FIRST THE TARES".

At the time, I believed that "the dead in Christ" that Paul spoke of being gathered first were "the saints" who had physically died and long since been buried. But now I believe that we are all found "in Christ" (having already been gathered together into ONE BODY, by ONE SPIRIT, making Christ Lord BOTH OF THE LIVING AND DEAD - spiritual truths, not carnal one). And "the dead in Christ" of which Paul speaks are "the tares" of which Christ speaks and the two statement AGREE rather than disagree.

When the scriptures say "blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection" and I was claiming that this proves that the saints (wheat) are resurrected first and that "the dead in Christ" that Paul speaks of are "the saints" (wheat) then I was contradicting the words of Christ and caused Paul to also contradict the words of Christ.

So I began to question all of this and wonder why no one ever counts HIS RESURRECTION (the one that Paul said we are to strive TO KNOW) as THE FIRST RESURRECTION?

Jesus Christ IS the resurrection and the life!!! I suddenly came to realize that what I was believing for was the same thing that Martha was believing for when Christ told her that she would see her brother again and she said: "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day".

Is that not what we hear so many Christians, even those who believe in UR saying (whether or not they believe in 'soul sleep' or whatever they believe the conscious condition of the dead is)??

But what did Jesus say to Martha? Did he say AMEN, you understand!!? No, he said:

"I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

For the first time I felt like I finally "got it".

Jesus Christ IS the resurrection and the life and it is not about being UNCLOTHED, but about being CLOTHED UPON, as it is THIS MORTAL (not our corpses) putting on IMMORTALITY. It is about being clothed WITH CHRIST. The hope of glory is CHRIST IN YOU!! Amen??

As I see it, the kingdom is within and it is there that Christ must sit on His throne and reign in His kingdom.... and we with Him... having eternal LIFE.

The Kingdom of God within, Him ruling and reigning in our hearts (as believers) etc., but ALSO,

He will come and physically be among us, the time of Gentiles will be fulfilled and all Israel will be saved, and as Martin recently posted, there really also will be a 1000 year literal reign.

What keeps it from being both? Might solve some of these arguments.

HI Jabcat,

What keeps it from being both for me is what I explained in my post to CHB. I don't see how it can be true that "now is the judgment of this world" (Christ's words) and the great white throne judgment is yet to take place. I don't see how it can be true that in the time of harvest Christ said he would send forth his angels saying: "gather ye together first the tares" (Christ's words) and yet claim that it is the saints/wheat that are resurrected/gathered first to live and rule in this earthly kingdom, etc, etc.

For me, believing in a literal kingdom to be set up on earth in the future and in more than one resurrection, with believers/saints being resurrected first, and a future judgment, etc, began to contradict too many passages of scripture that started being brought to me attention through further study.

So, for me, I can't see myself going back down that road again... not unless or until I am able to reconcile the contradictions that seem to result from holding that belief. It is for those very reasons that I gave them up.

ReFormer and Card. Let's say James, your post entails the spiritual aspect. I agree there's a lot to what you write, including what I included in my earlier post regarding the Kingdom of God within believers -and yes, of course, Yesu is Master now and King of kings.

Do you believe there will also be a time when we are LITERALLY any more in Jesus' presence than we are now? I.e., will you ever see His glorified immortal body with your glorified immortal eyes? If so, that's part of where I'm saying 'both'. If not, then right now I see it s/w differently, as I'm sure I can't fully explain it, but I believe we are yet to experience an even "more real", more miraculous, more direct manifestation of Jesus' presence than we now do. A next age(s) when the lamb is lying with the lion, etc. A time when our faith will have become sight.

"...Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:11

God's blessings to your and yours, James.

And how did He come the first time? In the flesh of man. How did He come the second time? In the flesh of man.

They saw Him go into the clouds; men are described in Jude as clouds. The Hebrew word for dust also means 'cloud'.

The two times in my life I've LITERALLY seen Him, He was in man, as real to me as any other man that was standing in front of me.

Probably what kept me from looking for Him anywhere else aside from the above, is that I was shown by Him that the firstfruits fully mature Sons are being made to be one with the Head (saviors shall arise on Mt. Zion), and the rest of the brethren are the bride He's returning for thru the Sons, ie. the body. So I see two 'companies' of saints, a bridegroom company and a bride company. He left to bring MANY SONS UNTO GLORY (bridegroom company).

Among other things, Song of Solomon's purpose is to show the fully matured Sons how to woo "their" bride. "She" is described as dark (full of darkness) but comely. He doesn't focus on her darkness, but basically tells her who Christ is, in her. This is exactly the OPPOSITE of what the "churches" , which are full of "brides", do.

This is why UR is so important to restore to the gospel, because essentially you're telling them of the love that He has for His bride, irrespective of any of the darkness she's presently being bound by, which IS the message of SOS, which is why it was not given to Jewish males to read until they were 30 years of age. NOT coincidentally, this is the age David ascended the throne and the age the Messiah's VISIBLE to the world, ministry started. My Blessings....

« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 06:08:51 PM by Cardinal »

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

So I see two 'companies' of saints, a bridegroom company and a bride company. He left to bring MANY SONS UNTO GLORY (bridegroom company).

So that would mean the 144,000 are the bridegroom company, following the Lamb wherever he goes? As are the saviours mentioned in Obadiah?

That's spectacular, Cardinal.

John 3:29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

I think so too, Molly. And that number is not a set number, but rather a symbol for an aspect of the Kingdom WITHIN. It's the government of God in Spirit which is Christ the Son, multiplied by the government of God in the natural man, ie. a kingdom without end, or an ever expanding kingdom.

The friend of the bridegroom, are these, made friends by this processing, ie. no greater love has any man that this, that he lay down his life for his friend. Abraham was God's friend because of laying down his 'life' ie. the promised son on the altar on the mountaintop.

This was the purpose of being called out of the churches, to 'die' in the wilderness. It appeared to many around us that we were 'killing' Him, in the laying down of the 'life' of Him we had received thus far, but only because they haven't yet heard the call to come up higher. But saviors are arising on Mt. Zion (the highest point), willing to lay down all and be made of no reputation, just as He was.

And these friends of the bridegroom will hear His voice (the fullness/7th trump) to rend the veil of the flesh off the fullness (complete, ie. 7 churches) of the bride. Does not the man raise the veil of the bride from off her face/nature? Blessings....

« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 07:16:25 PM by Cardinal »

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

This was the purpose of being called out of the churches, to 'die' in the wilderness. It appeared to many around us that we were 'killing' Him, in the laying down of the 'life' of Him we had received thus far, but only because they haven't yet heard the call to come up higher. But saviors are arising on Mt. Zion (the highest point), willing to lay down all and be made of no reputation, just as He was. Blessings....

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Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Finally, in the book of Revelation (chapters 21-22) the Holy of Holies is in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:16 shows that the height, breadth and length of the city are all equal just as in the case of the Holy of Holies in both the tabernacle and the temple. This implies that the entire city of the New Jerusalem is the Holy of Holies. Revelation 21:22 says, "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." In the temple, in the Holy of Holies, in the New Jerusalem, all God's redeemed ones will serve and worship God, will see and touch God's presence, and will live and dwell in God's presence for eternity. The measurements of the Holy of Holies in the New Jerusalem are 12,000 stadia in length, 12,000 stadia in breadth and 12,000 stadia in height (Rev. 21:16).

If we consider the dimensions of the tabernacle, the temple and the New Jerusalem, we will see that the Holy of Holies constantly enlarges from the tabernacle to the temple and finally to the New Jerusalem. This means that in our experience, the Holy of Holies must be continuously enlarged. In other words, our experience of living, walking and abiding in God's presence will increase as we mature in Christ!

The Spiritual Significance of the Holy of Holies

Hebrews 10:19-22a says, "Having therefore, brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of Holies in the blood of Jesus, 20 Which entrance He initiated for us as a new and living way through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 And having a great Priest over the house of God, 22 Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies." The Holy of Holies today is in heaven, where the Lord Jesus is (Heb. 9:12, 24). How, then, can we enter the Holy of Holies while we are still on earth? The secret is our spirit, referred to in Hebrews 4:12. The very Christ who is in heaven is now also in our spirit (2 Tim. 4:22). As the heavenly ladder (Gen. 28:12; John 1:51), He joins our spirit to heaven and brings heaven into our spirit. Hence, whenever we turn to our spirit, we enter into the Holy of Holies. There we meet with God, who is on the throne of grace. Undoubtedly, the throne mentioned here is the throne of God, which is in heaven (Rev. 4:2). The throne of God is the throne of authority toward all the universe (Dan. 7:9; Rev. 5:1). But toward us, the believers, it becomes the throne of grace, signified by the propitiation place (the mercy seat) within the Holy of Holies (Exo. 25:17, 21). This throne is the throne of both God and the Lamb (Rev. 22:1). How can we come to the throne of God and the Lamb, Christ, in heaven while we still live on earth? The secret is our spirit, referred to in Hebrews 4:12. The very Christ who is sitting on the throne in heaven (Rom. 8:34) is also now in us (Rom. 8:10), that is, in our spirit (2 Tim. 4:22), where the habitation of God is (Eph. 2:22). At Bethel, the house of God, the habitation of God, which is the gate of heaven, Christ is the ladder that joins earth to heaven and brings heaven to earth (Gen. 28:12-17; John 1:51). Since today our spirit is the place of God's habitation, it is now the gate of heaven, where Christ is the ladder that joins us, the people on earth, to heaven, and brings heaven to us. Hence, whenever we turn to our spirit, we enter through the gate of heaven and touch the throne of grace in heaven through Christ as the heavenly ladder. [The New Testament Recovery Version, Hebrews 10:19 Footnote 1 and Hebrews 4:16 Footnote 1, Living Stream Ministry]

Jesus Christ IS the resurrection and the life and it is not about being UNCLOTHED, but about being CLOTHED UPON, as it is THIS MORTAL (not our corpses) putting on IMMORTALITY. It is about being clothed WITH CHRIST. The hope of glory is CHRIST IN YOU!! Amen??

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your reply. Amen to what you say here. I am going to have to put on my thinking cap and re-read your post and think about it some more. There is so much to learn the brain cannot take it all in at once. Thanks again.

The kingdom of heavens points to the realm. The kingdom of God points to the ruler of that realm. The kingdom now is and is yet to come. The living foundation of His presiding presence is established in our inner realm of us His temple; then, the manifestation of the glory of His presiding presence is established in our outer realms through us His temple. Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven." The New Jerusalem is from the realm of the mind of God "descending out of heavens from God" into manifestation to fill the whole earth with His glory. As a pregnacy, it is an evidenced expectation, "Christ in us: the hope of glory." As a birth and a new presence in the world, so is us in Christ: the glory revealed. Scripture says of Joseph, "Until his word came, the word of the LORD tried him." The prophetic suffers for a future word. It is planted in them to be born in the world.

(Sorry I didn't work as hard at writing the above as I did the little piece about the kingdom being now. I'm having a trial in several areas. When we believe God is love?)

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

So what does all of this mean in the practical sense?If someone were to just stumble upon this thread knowing nothing of God...And after reading the above 8 or 9 or so posts and they asked..."what are you all talking about? What would you say to them?

In plain English.

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"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

For one example...If I love Jesus and the people with whom I have to associate (an inward thing) and lay my hands on the sick (an outward thing based on an inward thing) they shall recover (an outward glory reigning.) The gifts of the Spirit (spiritual-s) are an earnest of the actual inheritance, a foretaste of the glory promising the greater glory that is to come: a resurrection body that never needs healing. And, rather than the Medical/Health Care System, the sons of God will reign by the annointing among the sons of men in their immaturity.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 09:07:27 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!