I Kissed Courtship Goodbye!

When I was in my early 20’s I spent about 13 months working at an ACE school in Mexico. It so happened that one of my brother’s friends, a guy I had met previously at the IBLP (Institute in Basic Life Principles) Dallas Training Center, lived there as well. His family would frequently have me over for meals: I enjoyed the chance to eat some American food, speak English, and generally hang out.

Since this guy was a friend of my brother, I didn’t think it was strange at all that his family invited me over. Turns out, however, that they saw it as a God-given opportunity for their son and me to get to know each other better. He and I did become friends, enjoying humor, discussing Shakespeare, and sharing many of the same experiences as Advanced Training Institute (ATI) students. When I returned home from Mexico, his dad contacted my dad, and I learned that he wanted to court me. I was a little surprised, but thought, “Well, I like him as a friend, and I’d hate to say no to a courtship just because I don’t have any romantic interest. After all, it’s a chance for him to win my heart.”

During my involvement with ATI, I had heard stories of couples who had courted, when one or both of the parties wasn’t initially interested in the other. Yet, God worked in their hearts and they fell in love. Looking back on my situation, agreeing to this courtship was a mistake.

There were a lot of difficult thing for me during this time, but one of the hardest was interacting with ATI friends and acquaintances who excitedly congratulated me, assuming this young man and I would soon be married, simply because we were courting. Deep down, however, I knew that a marriage to this young man would never happen. I knew that my feelings for him weren’t the same as the feelings he indicated to me. I felt sick, and even a little hypocritical, each time I responded graciously to these well-wishers.

Within a few months, when it became clear to me that his winning my heart wasn’t going to happen–ever, I did what any good ATI girl would do: I got my dad to call his dad to call the whole thing off. By this time, his family had announced the courtship in a family newsletter. In addition to all of my friends, a large group of strangers also knew about the courtship. It was a bad situation all around. He was a really nice guy with a heart for God and was genuinely planning to marry me, and I just wasn’t interested.

Looking back, I regret that I didn’t call him myself. Calling him personally would have been the decent thing to do; I took the easy route, I think, because I found myself irritated about the entire courtship model. It’s as if I thought, “You dads got us into this mess to begin with; now you clean it up!” I should mention that I had a rocky relationship with my dad (actually my stepfather, who had adopted me when he and my mom married) throughout my teens. Trusting my heart to him was not a concept I embraced, even though I was trying to be submissive to my authorities and to seek God’s guidance with my parents’ help.

After the courtship ended, I spent the next year and a half volunteering with IBLP in Honduras, Mexico, and at the Dallas Training Center, even though my family was no longer enrolled in ATI. Old habits die hard, and I had made a number of good friends through ATI. Eventually, though, I decided that I wanted to pursue nursing school so I left IBLP and moved back home so that I could attend an inexpensive state school.

About this time, I began to evaluate the “standards” I had been taught through ATI (including courtship). I couldn’t help feeling many were external, legalistic, and unnecessary. I felt freedom to jettison many of these standards and even to start dating. As I embraced this new-found freedom, I slowly stopped judging others and myself. And, I started learning how to enjoy life!

I’m not sure when exactly this happened, but during that time frame, I made two really firm resolutions:

1) I’d never, ever go through another courtship.

2) I’d never date anyone to whom I wasn’t already attracted.

Subconsciously, I also determined that I would not go on any date that was set up by someone else, nor would I date any guy that seemed to like me more than I liked him.

The next time someone wanted to court me, I said, “No.” When really sweet people from my church wanted to set me up with their wonderful single nephew, I said, “No.” When one of my best friends wanted me to meet her husband’s good friend (who it turns out actually is a great guy), I said “No.”

I’d been so burned by my experience with courtship, I just shut down any possibility of a serious relationship for about five years, unless it was someone that I alone had met – no family, church or friends involved. I casually dated during this time, but I was completely uncomfortable with the possibility of any real, long-term relationship.

In my last semester of nursing school, I met a Computer Science major named Matt in a fitness swimming class. In addition to being one of the few people on the planet who looks good in a Speedo, he met the qualification of not knowing anyone in my family or church, and he only barely knew one of my friends. A further plus for me was that he did not know a thing about courtship and had never heard of the Basic Seminar or Bill Gothard. I took a relaxed approach to our relationship. It was hard to overcome the mindset I’d adopted as a result of courtship teachings: “If I get this wrong, and miss the will of God in this area, I will make a mistake that will ruin my entire future existence.”

Eventually, I realized that not only did I enjoy spending time with him, I also thought that he would make a great dad, and that I wanted to wake up next to him for the rest of my life. We took our time getting to know each other, and about a year after we met, Matt asked me to marry him. We married eight months later in a simple garden ceremony attended by family, friends and church family. This was such a different experience from the courtship, where I felt we would have been rushed to marry quickly.

In hindsight, it could have turned out so badly–marrying someone I did not love. I believe it was God’s grace and love leading me to Matt. He has been perfect for me! We will celebrate our sixth wedding anniversary next month, and are both so thankful for God’s leading.

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

About the author

Elisa spent 13 years in ATI/IBLP. She volunteered in various aspects of the organization, including time spent in Mexico, Honduras and at the Dallas Training Center. She currently works at a Christian non-profit health clinic part-time, and is a full-time wife and mom to a loving husband and three small children. She is a also Navy reservist and enjoys the opportunity to travel while providing health-care to both US military members and others. Elisa has a strong heart for meeting health needs in under-served groups and for bringing the grace of Christ to bear on every situation in life. She and her family live in Tyler, TX.

64 Comments

Elisa - You truly are one of the most amazing women I've met. I feel like I could spend hours just talking and soaking up your presence. I truly have enjoyed watching you and Matt and talking to you about relationships. Your little family is a true example that as adults we can seek God ourselves and follow the directions He gives us without fear.

Great post! God works in many different ways, through many different situations, and can't be bound by a lot of rules and forms. Besides, courtship can't possibly work well when it's considered nearly engagement from the start.

And one of the few people on the planet who looks good in a Speedo -- haha! You wouldn't write that in a courtship story, you know.

If you to were take the promise of formulas out of Gothard's system, methinks the system would crumble. It depends on formulas. Make a vow for this, make a commitment for that. Give up this, commit to that. Back trouble = bitterness. Mental illness = irresponsibility or somesuch. I have the impression that parents who desperately needed help would call in and be connected to teenagers who would read the magic formulas from notecards to tell the parents how to fix their problems.

As I understand it, "Gothardism minus formulas" would be even more minimalistic than "Garfield minus Garfield."

You're correct that "committing to courtship" is a problem. Unfortunately, that concept was widely taught throughout ATI. That's one of the reasons this site exists: to expose problematic teachings offered by IBLP, such as making a commitment "to courtship".

You know its funny, but since my failed attempts at courtship - the assumed engagement feeling among other things, I have had the same criteria for my next relationship:

1. They can't know my family and preferably my close friends2. They can't know about Bill Gothard, ATI, or IBLP3. They can't know about what courtship is...or they and their family are against that model

David, it's true that those "rules" made it easier for me when I went to have another serious relationship. My other concern with courtship would be not to just create another list of rules as a reaction to something we know is wrong, though. I think it could have backfired on me, but God was gracious, and one thing I've learned is that life is rarely simple enough to put into a list of steps.

David, I think I subconsciously followed that same logic when I really came out of ATI thinking.. Thank God! (maybe not so much number 1, but def 2 and 3.)

In fact, my parents told me, when my husband and I were dating/engaged, 'we'd like him to attend a Basic Seminar, I mean, it really did so much for us." I just looked at them, dumbfounded, which is probably why they added, "And don't you say anything negative about it to him." Me, "Ok, I won't say anything negative about it." I went straight to him, and told him, "If you convert to that way of thinking, this relationship is over." But really, there was no need for me to do even that, I wanted to ask my parents, "First, do you REALLY think I haven't already told him EXACTLY how I feel about ATI? Second, he's a GROWN man, and quite Godly (otherwise you wouldn't have given your consent), do you think he's incapable of formulating his own opinions on the matter, basing them on Scripture?" (and now that I think of it, since my fiance was Godly enough to earn my parent's approval, I really don't know why they thought the Seminars were so necessary.)

"If I get this wrong, and miss the will of God in this area, I will make a mistake that will ruin my entire future existence" -- I'm glad both of us are learning to break free of this kind of thinking. It causes such fear! I'm so glad that I've learned that my God tells me to "fear not"!

I was in a similar situation as the guy who was infatuated with a girl who did not share the same feelings. Subsequent to the breakup, I reevaluated the courtship model. I came to similar conclusions. I felt like the "no-dating-until-you-find-the-one-you-want-marry" model to have significantly hindered my ability to relate with women. It took years before I could go on a date without feeling guilty. I have now been married for almost 8 years. I met my wife in a Bible study; I was attracted to her but never asked her out (I was too chicken). After a year, she asked me out. This July will be 9 years from that date.

I thank God daily that I am married to a woman who really loves me and whom I love with all my heart. Her family has accepted me unconditionally. In retrospect, my parents who, though well-intended, wanted to guard my heart actually exposed it to more pain. Had the young lady whom I wanted to "court" and I had had some honest conversations early on, I think we could have avoided a lot of difficulty for both of us. My biggest regret in my courtship experience is that I caused pain to and severed relationships with people I considered my friends.

You post has generated a lot of interest. It seems to have been enlightening and cathartic for everyone involved in a "failed" courtship (one that did not end in marriage). Glad you took the time to share your experience it such an honest and open way.

Elisa, you have written a good and well thought out article. Just as you said that you wished you had talked to the fellow yourself, I bet if you spoke to him, your parents, or his parents that all of them would have some of those same type of “could have, should have, would have” thoughts.

I am also glad to hear that God has given you a wonderful loving relationship with a man who meets your needs.

Thanks for your kind comments, Mike. One of my big regrets, as I mentioned above, is the broken friendships that resulted. I think, with all the teaching on courtship in ATI, there really wasn't any acknowledgement that a courtship might not end in marriage, as if by following all the steps correctly, a godly marriage would automatically result every time. This left some couples floundering when one or the other realized it was not God's will.

“Great story!” Really? I think not. The person who touted this praise should look at it from a different perspective…

I happen to be the wife of a man who was in a courtship that resulted in a breakup. I must say for me, her loss is my unequivocal gain! My husband has the best heart and is a wonderful father. To the girl who left him, you have no idea how wrong you were/are.

To the author, I think it’s a shame that you have blamed the circumstances for your choices. When you choose to lead someone on and then dash their feelings without even the audacity of telling him why, you should have repercussions. I am not sorry to say that your struggles with moving forward in another relationship were of your own choosing. How can you grow up in that environment and not know that the acceptance of a courtship really means that you are “engaged to be engaged?”

While I don’t agree with the attributes of courtship, I am displeased with your attitude in this situation. You left a young man in pieces with no explanation of why his heart was broken. You sent your dad in to break up with him – actually, not even him. You had your dad break up with his dad!

In my position, it’s hard to hear his story and then to read this side of it. I wonder if you’ve ever thought about what the young man had to endure. Do you know where he is now? Do you know if he was able to overcome the broken heart? I’ve occasionally thought of the girl that hurt my husband and wondered what her side of the story was. I guess your comments give me some insight. Then there are times that I think of my husband and how wonderful he is and think to myself “how could a girl be that imprudent as to let this man get away?”

I will say in the case of my husband, I am glad it didn’t work out, though I cringe at the pain he had to have felt. Had it worked out, I wouldn’t be where I am today.

Not every form of establishing a relationship is wrong. There is a place for courtship and at the same time, there is a place for anything but courtship. Whatever method you choose, you must remember that it's not just about you. There is another human being on the other end of your relationship.

I've been in a similar situation, as the woman who married a man who had been rejected. I have never once resented the fact that the other woman turned him down and broke his heart, because you see, that brokenness has helped make him the incredible man that he is today. One of the difficulties of the courtship model was that it was sold with the idea that it would help keep your heart from being broken. But the more I've thought about it and searched Scripture, I don't feel that a life without brokenness is a sign of spiritual maturity. In fact, Psalms 34:18-19 says, "The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. A righteous man may have may troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all." When my husband's heart was broken, he spent days and months crying out to the Lord, distraught over what had happened. And through that pain, the Lord met him there, and he grew closer to the Lord. When we met, he finally understood why God had allowed him to go through that pain. And what I observed in him was a man who had grown through the pain of a difficult relationship. He appreciated me so much more, listened to my heart, and when it was time, he was ready to go out a limb and ask me to marry him. He had a quiet sureness and confidence in the Lord's leading, and I am so grateful for him. I don't ever resent or regret the other woman, and I would never wish that she had not happened in his life. She was used by God to help refine my husband and prepare him for meeting me--not to mention the side benefit that she helped keep him 'off the market' until we were ready to meet. ;-)

I certainly am appreciative of the fact that the courtship did not work out, however, I am not appreciative that my husband had to suffer a broken heart. I cannot fathom being thankful for my husband's hurt. Being broken in your relationship with God does not mean that you had to have suffered. Nor does the fact that someone has not experienced a broken heart mean that they are spiritually immature. You don't have to have suffered a great pain in order to be a good spouse.

My husband would have been a great spouse even if this girl had not hurt him. And I don't think that stringing him along should be viewed as the same as keeping him off the market.

Again, my point was that the perspective here is totally one-sided. I just wanted to throw out the thought that everyone seems to be forgetting that there are two people in a relationshoip. All of the comments even are just about their own feelings. Has anyone thought about the broken pieces they have left behind? God calls us to be selfless and love our neighbor. Who is a closer neighbor than a potential spouse?

I understand your perspective, Gwen. But what I think you're missing is that to those of us raised under the courtship model, Elisa was acting as she had been taught to act. It was part of the courtship model that you were *not* to have any romantic attractions to *anyone* prior to commencing courtship. Really, prior to becoming engaged. So of course you knew that when someone came asking to court, it *was supposed* to be someone in whom you were not interested, and who you had no idea was interested in you. (If you *were* interested in someone--that was obviously sinful temptation to fight against.) All the best courtship testimonies started with the girl very reluctant and uninterested, later changing her mind through prayer or being won over.

So of course if someone came along and asked, and you weren't interested in anyone else or wanting to remain single for the rest of your life, and didn't have any objective reason to dislike him, you would say yes and hope that the courtship miracle would occur and you would fall in love with him. If it didn't happen--what were you supposed to do?

Yes, it was horribly unfair to the guys. And the girls. And everyone else involved. That's the point of this article--it's a faulty model which might work in some circumstances, but when it's held up as the godly solution to everything, creates extremely unrealistic expectations and more of the heartbreak it was supposed to prevent.

Gwen, It looks like a couple of people have addressed some of your concerns. I'd like to add that of course I struggled with knowing that ending the courtship would hurt him. I finally came to the realization that it would be as much of a disservice to him as it would to me to marry him, knowing that I saw him as a friend but nothing more. Surely you wouldn't wish being in a relationship like that on anybody. I've kept up with his life from a distance, and know that he is now happily married and has a baby.

Your comment brings out one of the major pitfalls of the courtship model. You said, "How can you grow up in that environment and not know that the acceptance of a courtship really means that you are 'engaged to be engaged?'" It wasn't taught that way to me. It was taught as a chance for the young man to win a girl's heart: how I presented it in my story, and how I truly understood it then. Looking back, I see that he probably had a very idea of courtship than I did, and we may have even viewed it differently than my parents and his did. Yet, we all assumed we knew what it meant, just as you assume a courtship means a pre-engagement period. At the least, a dating model because of its acknowledged ambiguity, forces couples to talk through some of these issues.

Another pitfall that I see that is even worse, is, What do couples do when one or the other of them comes to the realization that marriage is not God's will? Are they obligated to marry just because they courted? This is a bigger concern to me, and was not addressed in the teaching I heard growing up. I do believe that God could lead a couple to court, and yet not lead them to marry. But maybe not. Maybe he and I and our parents were mistaken. Maybe God did not lead us to go through that time of getting to know each other. I do know that He used what happened afterward to make us all more like himself, so I have never considered my courtship a "failed" courtship.

The courtship mentality has serious flaws. Even though I acknowledge that God used it in my life, I would never encourage anyone to follow the courtship model taught in ATI.

The problem Gwen is that Courtship is suppose to protect our hearts because we are going through our parents. It never, ever does that! She was trusting her parents and the formula of courtship to help her get to the place where she loved him. It wasn't leading him on. It was believing in the lie of courtship. I am glad that you had a good experience with courtship.. in that you have your husband. I think you come across very judgmental to a woman who was just trying to do the right thing. Of course its one-sided. Its her story. You will have to go to him for the other side. Hopefully he realized in the process of getting a broken heart that courtship promises things that it cannot keep as well.

You didn't read very closely. I didn't say my husband courted me. In fact, if you look back, I said I don't agree with the courtship model.

My point was and still is that people are blaming others for their own choices. Relying on a process to do something only God can do is reliance on quicksand. It will never hold up.

And yes, I have some irritation towards a person who put someone in the same situation as what my husband was placed in. In a similar fashion, my husband was not given any reason as to why the courtship ended. Elisa said very plainly, she let her dad handle it. The young man never knew what he did wrong. And in fact, he did nothing wrong. But he never knew that.

I am glad to know, though, that is seems as he has moved on and has been able to enjoy life.

KariUFebruary 17, 2012

It seems like the dads should have been mature enough to realize that Elisa's poor rejected fellow would benefit from an explanation. Since the dads were essentially running the show, why didn't they handle their children's feelings more responsibly? It doesn't seem fair to put the responsibility on the girl, who was actually trying to be submissive and proper as she had been taught. If I were you, I would be expressing my displeasure to those grown men who let their children go through that misery (on both sides, because Elisa was obviously very distressed to have hurt her good friend) without giving them the tools to handle it with grace.

If my children are allowed to date (and I expect they will be), I feel that it is my responsibility to teach them etiquette in their relationships. Honesty, grace, a gentle let-down if they are not interested, and appropriate, respectful behavior if they are interested. Our parents should have taught us the same courtesies in courtship, but they were so busy telling us to "sleep" that the rest of relationship etiquette seems to have been missed.

MatthewSFebruary 17, 2012

Gwen, I think you might be in a unique position to give us some wisdom on how to help a person who was wounded by past courtship failures move forward. What are some things you and your husband have learned that you could pass along to others who are not as far along in their journey yet? What do you suppose you might do differently with your own children?

Gwen, I have read and reread this story now and just can't find how you reach the conclusion that the author "blamed the circumstances for your choices". It seems that the exact opposite is true since at every point she takes responsibility for her choices and even admits she freely made the wrong choices.

Then you ask if she ever thought about what the young man had to endure. While she doesn't dwell on it, her words would imply that she has. She admits it would have been the decent thing to tell him herself and that she regrets she didn't. If your accusations held up, I would be right in there with you asking why she wasn't taking responsibility for her own actions. But they don't seem to as far as I can tell.

Now, as a guy who has had his "heart broken" several times both in dating and courtship, I can very much understand your desire for the other side to be told as well (and I believe it is in other articles on this site). However, that is not the story being told here. Since she doesn't blame others for her choices nor show disinterest in the person she hurt, I can't see how your reaction here is accurate. Maybe you can point out what I am missing which causes you to make the accusations you do?

I'm not sure if you realize that you are logically recommending that someone should avoid breaking off a courtship to avoid breaking someone's heart temporarily instead opting for a lifetime (assuming that you don't see divorce as a legitimate option) of heartbreak through an unholy, unloving marriage.

I'm sorry, but the perfect man for you may not be the perfect man for someone else. That's the beauty of the way God created man and woman. The key is having the right avenue for finding the "perfect" mate for you rather than being forced into something that's not befitting for a lifelong, loving partnership.

I was reading an old book the other day, and one small passage reminded me of some comments on this article. It has nothing to do with courtship, but a lot with God using a person's experiences, including hurt, to grow them to glorify himself.

During college, Billy Graham had his heart broken. Such obstacles helped him lean into God, AND his ministry and life would not have been the same without Ruth Bell Graham. Here's the passage:

Several years later Ruth was in Boston for the concluding meeting, of what, up to then, was Billy Graham's most successful Crusade. That night 16,000 people jammed Boston Garden; 5,000 stood outside; 1,500 made decisions for Christ During the service. Ruth was introduced and given a standing ovation. Later, unwarned by Billy, she was taken to the room reserved for the team and there introduced to the girl to whom he was unofficially engaged at the Florida Bible Institute and who, with what seemed near-disastrous consequences, had jilted him for a young man “of greater promise.” “I’ve wanted to meet you for a long time,” said Ruth. “I’ve thanked the Lord so often for answering my prayer about a husband. Now I can thank you for having made it possible for Him to answer that prayer with Bill.”

I personally don't agree with the courtship model. But, I know several people for whom courtship was a good experience. I don't think there is a guaranteed way to proceed in a relationship. I think that if you talked with people raised outside of the courtship model, you'd have just as many broken hearts and bad experiences and they would all have very similar tales of how it was their surroundings and upbringing that taught them how to proceed. In the secular world, you'll have girls who went from boy to boy to boy because that was what they saw. And then you'll have girls who have never dated really because they have an idealistic vision of what a man should do to win their heart, and it's not healthy either.

I guess my point is that when you depend on others to be your guide in how you should proceed, you will most likely fail. You have to depend on God and His timing and His will.

I think most of us feel that had God not intervened when He did, our romantic lives would have been very different. I am very thankful for my husband and his heart for God. And while I too am not thankful for his previously broken heart, I am thankful he is who he is and the recovery from a broken heart is part of him.

Courtship has definitely gone too far. My Dads dream for me was to "work with the young mans father so that the two fathers could help the young man win (my) heart." Every girls dream right? Honestly, if the guy couldn't figure out on his own or needed the help of his and my father to win me than I wouldn't want him! I asked my Dad when he told me that, "What would you do? Tell him my favorite color or something?" (It just seemed so silly to me) and he got this knowing smile like I just didn't "get it."

As it turned out (in God's grace!) I became friends with a guy who lived several states away and we emailed back and forth for over a year (I'd met him and knew him for a few months before going back home and doing the letter writing.) He eventually came up to visit me and my family in person and see if there could be something more between us. We'd prayed a lot about our relationship and even that God would take any feelings away for each other if it wasn't His will, but during that trip we both knew for sure that we were meant for each other. As a formality and because I was still living in my parents house I knew that he would need to "ask my dad to court me"... my Dad liked him, but wasn't ready for me to commit to anyone and tried to slow down what God was growing in us. He made rules like "don't tell her you love her" and gave him assignments like writing out his testimony and telling him to go visit his Dad (who was Muslim and had been abusive when he was a kid and really was not and still is not someone that he could or should have a relationship with.) My close friends and everyone in our church who met him thought he'd be great for me, so there wasn't anything wrong. My Dad just wasn't convinced that his personality would fit mine. As if he was the one to decide that?

Our relationship became strained and forced in many ways. I was an emotional wreck for a while, but just 6 months later-- after my Dad had called his mom and step-dad and completely offended them with questions about their son-- I went to visit him and upon coming back and hearing that I'd given him my covenant ring and that he'd shouted out in the airport "I LOVE YOU" (because he just couldn't hold it in any longer) my Dad realized that we were eventually going to get married.

Enter the courtship thing again *sigh*... in a phone conversation with him and my Dad, my Dad gave his permission for him to marry me and then emailed all of our family and friends and everyone. We were suddenly "officially engaged" .. though I had no real ring and no real proposal and he was still in college. Suddenly, we found ourselves pushed into "setting a date" as everyone (and I do mean everyone!) asked us, "when are you getting married?" Before the "permission" was given we'd vaguely talked about a couple years down the road when he was done with school and had a job and so on, but after we were "officially engaged" we were told not to make our engagement too long and so, our relationship was abnormally sped up and slowed down and sped up in ways that weren't healthy for us.

We've been married now for 7 1/2 years and our marriage is always growing better, but I can look back to that time and see the damage that came out of it and that we've had to work through. I see now that the time apart was a gift from God (though it didn't feel like it at the time.) Because he's told me that if my Dad had of tried to pull the courtship thing sooner (when we were just getting to know each other) he would have bailed before even starting. There were other issues that came up as well that I won't get into here.. least of which was the emotional turmoil and damaged relationship with my parents and his. Not to mention how we struggled when we were first married because of finances and just over-all not being financially ready to get married.

BUT, God is gracious and our marriage is growing and we are working through those emotional and financial things and it's getting better. The courtship that we'd been taught is definitely NOT something I want to do with my own girls. I want them to have friends and trust God with that person that He has planned for them. I want to get to know the guys (NOT interrogate them or their family.) I wouldn't want to do anything behind my daughters back in the name of "protecting her heart" either.

Recently someone (who is very into courtship for their own kids) told me that my Dad "saved me" because I was a virgin when I got married. But it wasn't my Dad... Jesus saved me in spite of what my Dad tried to control. Jesus brought an amazing man into my life that fits with me perfectly (in spite of what my Dad tried to control.)

We are not to act like god for our children. We guide them and teach them about God when they are young and when they become adults we let go and trust Jesus to guide their lives.

"Recently someone (who is very into courtship for their own kids) told me that my Dad "saved me" because I was a virgin when I got married."

Bullcrap. I made the choice to save it for my wedding night, as did my husband, and we had PLENTY of opportunity to 'screw' that up. And we didn't. It is God who directed us and gave us the strength to resist temptation. Furthermore, while losing your virginity is a sin, it's NOT the most horrible thing a person can do: i.e. as opposed to going on a psychotic rampage and shooting up a mall, or committing suicide, or having an abortion etc.... A sin is a sin is a sin is a sin, yes, but as far as devastating consequences go, those things I mentioned generally have worse earthly consequences than losing virginity. I don't want people who've made mistakes to feel as if they are worthless because of a bad decision. God is bigger than that.

Also, 'working with the young man to win your heart' makes no sense anyway. Stand aside and let the man win your daughter's heart if he can! It's really screwed up unless you are fortunate enough to actually have any relationship with your dad, if your dad knows you well enough to know what kind of man you would like, and what would be best for you, but EVEN then, it's still faulty. I'm the one who has to live with my husband for the rest of our natural lives, I'M the one who needs to get to know him, and him get to know me, to see if we are the right ones for each other. I'm not a 12 year old who couldn't possibly be expected to know what she wants in a guy, and if I'm mature enough in my parents calculations to become a wife, I'm mature enough to have my own say in the matter. The mentality of 'not and adult until you're married' is utterly absurd. So why are you letting your 'child' get married at all? Catch 22 anyone? Ugh!!!! So frustrating! I decided long ago I would not marry someone who was in ATI, I couldn't endure that life of slavery for all my life. My husband today is an absolute God-send! He's as normal and devout a Christian as you could reasonably expect. I am happy and blessed! Thanks for letting me vent. I'm not attacking anyone, btw, just venting, perhaps attacking a faulty system, but not people.

The courtship model is definitely flawed. I didn't have to develop any skills of diplomacy or responsibility in my relationships because of courtship. We were encouraged to go through our parents, and even communications were intended to be monitored. We couldn't be ourselves with each other as a result, even during the "getting to know you" process. I resented every part of it, and was ridiculously immature and awkward in finally dissolving my courtship. But the ridiculous immaturity was cultivated by the courtship model. Vicious cycle with no resolution, except to try something evil like developing friendships with the opposite sex BEFORE committing to them.

I met your brother in Okinawa, when we were both stationed there. I am also a recovering ex-ATI student.

I heard a story from Jewish Rabbis that put a good many things in a new light for me, I will share it here: Lilith was Adam's first wife. God created her co equal with Adam from the dust of the ground. Since Adam could not control this woman, he petitioned God for another one. God created Eve from Adam's rib. The talking snake in Genesis is actually a euphamism for Lilith.

I think you have to be really careful when you throw out a flawed idea that you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.. Dating is not that grand a idea either and taking your parents completely out of the equation can be a recipe for disaster.I could tell you story after story of dating disasters.Most much worse then the above writers situation.I learned my lessons from my sisters mistakes.One came home from college with a baby (she didn't think it could happen to her she was a good girl.Only dated one guy.) Another had sex with at least 10 men before she found the right guy through dating..(not a great way to start a marriage they have had some serious issues he likewise had slept with many women) she thought she had the right man, until they left her devastated. Their stories are not any different then my public school friends most who lost their virginity in their early teens.I think some on here have let the pendulum swing too far.Some flawed ideas have nuggets of truth.I have been married almost 20 years and discourage my children from dating.. (but don't condone the IBLP view of courtship/arranged marriage either)I came from a fairly conservative christian large family. Where we were taught to save sex for marriage. Dating has a way of taking that away from you.

My belief of dating is that most people do it for fun. It often involves premarital sex. there often is no understanding of a commitment.. it DOES give each person you date a little piece of your heart.I dated..as did my spouse that is where I come from. Dating often starts in the early Teen years and leads to years of heartbreak.Most people that date don't set out to have sex.. but society see's the two (dating and sex) as being one and most people that date.. engage in sex before they are married usually having several partners before marriage.There was a reason most ATIA parents tried to shield their children from this.most of them dated..

My Ideas of courtship/calling are not the same as IBLP's ( I have toned them down over the years as we realized some definite legalism in ATIA families in which we are no longer involved) it involves meeting someone having some mutual interest and spending time together as a couple with the families. doing things together mostly in group environment as you get to know each other..you don't have the commitment for marriage unless you are engaged.Yet you are more protected then a dating relationship. Courtship should not be undertaken unless you are ready for marriage Example a 15 year old girl has no business courting..as she could not marry for several years. The man SHOULD ask the fathers permission to court, but the daughter she be approached as well. There should be some attraction before it commences.It is not to win the heart but to make sure the mate is marriage material. It used to be the standard way to find a spouse until the 1910's when dating emerged.

Just arranging things between the fathers is NOT courtship it is a arranged marriage. What IBLP teaches is actually traditionally known as a arranged marriage..my grandmas family is Italian.The IBLP way is pretty much how my great grands arranged marriages for their children.mutual love was not part of the recipe it was supposed to happen. Sometimes it did sometimes it did not.

Any idea if taken too far can be legalistic or permissive. The hard part in life is finding the truths and the happy medium ground that keeps you from being legalistic or permissive. Of course there are the black and white areas.. but unfortunately life is not often black and white.

FWIW, there has never been a "standard way" to find a spouse. Practices have varied widely over time and culture. There is not even a standard Scriptural way to find a spouse - practices varied greatly even there and most of them would probably be unacceptable by any standard you would care to hold to.

And while I understand and appreciate where you are coming from, I would encourage you (and everyone) to not make this an issue of dating vs. courtship. Neither is inherently better than the other as a method to find a spouse. The issue is not the method but instead the One you look to for wisdom as you relate to other people - whether that be just having fun or seeking a spouse.

Anne, thanks for this thoughtful comment. I appreciate your heart for your kids. I myself hope for every kid in our church, including my own, to say no to sexual temptation.

If I could respectfully push back, it is a faulty assumption that dating leads to premarital sex. Those two seem quite fused in your thinking. Courtship is an external device that will not cure sexual temptation of the heart. Many Christian young people do date and don't fall into sin. Many Christian young people fall into sin regardless of their stance on dating. It's an issue of the heart and it needs to be addressed in the heart.

I just read Gal 5 again today where Paul says in no uncertain terms that the fruit of the flesh is a bad thing, including sexual sin, but the answer to it is not slavery to rules but freedom in Christ, walking in the Spirit. Thus, the "happy medium" is not really found in balance between legalism vs. permissiveness but rather in walking by the Spirit vs. gratifying the desires of the flesh (Gal 5:16) As practiced "on the ground", courtship sometimes morphs into a slavery rather than a freedom. Sometimes courtship is a wonderful thing. Sometimes it's just another form of the very thing Paul said not to fall for: yet another slavery.

The verses prior to Gal 5:16 are these: You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Courtship, dating, drawing straws, or joining a nunnery, LOL, our primary directive (to borrow a term) is to love God with all our hearts and love our neighbor as ourselves.

All that being said, I do think your initial point is a good one. When critiquing courtship we all should be careful not to reject it wholesale. Simply kissing courtship goodbye is just as problematic and simply kissing dating goodbye. Rejecting courtship altogether because of its many problems is no better than rejecting dating altogether because of its many problems. The answer does not lie in the rejection or acceptance of some particular method of finding a spouse.

I think the title of the article was simply a nod toward the popular "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" book/series rather than a wholesale call for the rejection of courtship. The story here is Elisa's and why courtship didn't work out so well for her rather than her flat out condemnation of the concept.

As has been stated elsewhere in these threads, the substance is more important than the form. That being said, I've never heard of dating being touted as "the only answer" the way IBLP sold courtship.

(For the record, my wife and I courted. We will not ask that our children do the same).

Two wrongs don't make a right. Gothard's courtship must stand on its own legs...and no, dating doesn't necessarily lead to sex anymore than courtship does...that is another logical fallacy - Slippery-slope.

to tell a Christian who is dedicated to God, that dating automatically leads to sex, and that we do it for the fun of it, really is generalizing beyond the extreme, and I find it rather offensive. Someone who is determined to have loose morals, will have loose morals no matter what system of relationship building they are under. Of course I understand the pressures that come from CERTAIN dating circumstances, and I think dating in highschool really is ridiculous anyway, but I have been in a relationship with exactly two guys in my life. I was determined not to court, because of the flaws in it, and I thought it was beyond stupid, how am I supposed to get to know someone with my parents sitting there listening to every word? AWKWARD! (for the both of us). But I was equally determined not to waste emotional time and energy dating around until I found someone I liked well enough to consider pursuing a relationship with. I determined, be friends with the guys I like FIRST, and see if you like them. Because of this mentality, no-one except my husband and ex-boyfriend ever asked me out, I think I had an aura of 'unavailable' to the guys who I DIDN'T want to ask me out, but I liked them as friends. Anyway, I dated ex-boyfriend for three months, and boy did I ever learn alot! What to expect from a real relationship, what I want and DON'T want in a guy, and when it ended, it was hurtful, yes, but as romantic as I am, even I knew my heart wasn't broken, because I hadn't given it. It had not felt right. We'd been together just long enough for me to know that he just wasn't right. I would be just fine after awhile, and sure enough, I was. I gave it up to God, quite content to wait for the right one, and six months later, BOOM there he was! It was wonderful, glorious, butterfly's in the stomach, giddy with expectation kind of romance, and courtship had absolutely NOTHING to do with it! And we remained virgins til our wedding night. (I did have him ask my parents for permission to date, I thought that would be appropriate, and respectful enough for my parents, but courtship, HECK to the no.) anyway. I don't want to seem to attack anyone, it's not my intention, but I don't think people should 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' in regards to dating. I know girls who will probably NEVER marry, and it ain't because they don't want to be married. I grieve for them. I think their parents are expecting Christ incarnate to come and ask for their daughter's hand or something. Indescribably sad.

Elisa, thank you so much for sharing your story. While I was never involved in a courtship I too have people that I deeply regret having hurt as a result of my wrong beliefs in this and other areas. I used to be all about "kissing dating goodbye", when some of the most committed, truly Godly people I know never made such rules themselves and warned me against doing so myself. Being several years out of ATI, I've been slowly making my way up the learning curve of relating socially.

I love how upfront you were about what attracted you to Matt at first (the courtship idea totally ignored the importance of chemistry - finding someone physically attractive was "carnal"!) and about your own approach towards dating, which was a lot more realistic and worked with where you were in life. You mentioned the common struggle in the post-ATI life of taking the initial stage of dating too seriously as a result of this baggage of courtship => engagement => God's will, I was thinking recently about that too, and it's comforting to know that this baggage can, with time and experience, be overcome.

I stumbled upon this website and am shocked to have finally found people I might share my experience with.

(Elisa, I'm sorry to hijack the thread, but I don't know where else I should post this!)

My parents weren't in ATI, but my father is cut from the same cloth; he is as hypocritical and dictatorial a pastor as you can imagine. I was raised with Josh Harris' courtship model, homeschooled with a large Quaker family (not mine, since my family is extremely dysfunctional), and as an adult freely committed to celibacy because of my passion for full-time ministry.

In 2007, a new guy joined my Bible study and was instantly smitten with me. I wasn't interested, but my family, friends, and church members all pushed me to date him (they were reacting against the courtship model which I actually still wanted to follow). This guy treated me poorly from the beginning and it got worse and worse, including sexual assault, shutting out friends, lying and more.

I went to my pastor, elders, all of our parents, my brothers, older women, and friends - they said 1) my expectations were too high, 2) I was leading him on and responsible for his abuse of me, 3) I was an adult and should handle this on my own, 4) he apologized so I had to reconcile with him, 5) if he was so bad God would have revealed it to them, 6) I had to stay with him since he wanted me so badly, 7) God wanted me to stay with him unless God clearly said no, 8) since we were dating I had to marry him, and on and on. What I'd been taught as a child and young woman was that I should obey the council of my elders above my own feelings/thoughts, because my heart and mind are sinful and not to be trusted (although I've been a committed Christian since 1984). My community refused to step in and oversee our relationship in ANY way, only quoted Scripture out of context and told me to handle this on my own.

I freely admit that I have some responsibility in what happens to me, but after being abused for years by my family members I was unprepared to resist his toxic treatment. While dating I already felt like a "battered housewife". When he proposed engagement I initially refused, but in the face of his threats to harm my body and reputation, I caved in and agreed.

Though I was never attracted to him in any way, and deeply wounded by his insistent sin, we got married in 2009. I have spent every night since crying myself to sleep (when I can sleep) because my days are filled with sorrow. He had lied about being a Christian (though he did commit to Christ in 2012), lied about loving me (once we married he neglected me - just as bad as the abuse had been), lied about being prepared for marriage (he doesn't work so I have to, has developmental delays so I have to make all decisions, can't assist with running the household so I have to), lied about good things he would give/do for me (he said just this morning that he decided to forget about them because they'll never happen).

Though my community was no longer formally following a courtship model, I was internally, and I leaned too heavily on their advice, demands, and "spiritual" rebukes. As previous commenters said, the healthiest way is to follow Christ in whichever model you use: courtship, dating, arranged, or unexpected.

My warning is that if you are ambivalent or uncomfortable taking a relationship to the next level, DON'T DO IT! You are the one who will be stuck, not your advisers. If God is not telling you clearly what He wants you to do, that means He is letting YOU MAKE THE DECISION!

My request is that you pray for me as I face the decision of divorce (which I never in a million years expected to contemplate). I was coerced and assaulted into a marriage that more resembles a single mother and rebellious teenage son. He does not support me, and is incapable of independent living (financial, time, busines, priorty planning). After giving and giving and giving as Christians tell me I must - with no love and nothing given in return - my health is so poor that I soon will be committed to a hospital. My community tells me to stay and wait for a fairy-tale ending. My deepest desire is to honor the Lord Jesus in this decision, and I believe in holiness being just as important as happiness, but I'm dying from a mis-directed martyrdom.

Constance, I don't think you are hijacking at all. Your story makes me want to weep but I'm at work so I'll hold it in for now. I'm wondering if there's a way for the RG folks to recommend any counselors in your area. You seriously need some moral support right now. I don't understand how people could pressure you into marrying someone who was being abusive - it's so upsetting. I guess I just wanted to say I'm hurting for you and am praying for you.

My heart is heavy upon reading your story. I am so sorry that you were forced to marry someone whom you were never attracted to because of false teachings you learned in your upbringing. I'm also saddened that you endured much abuse in your childhood and are now having to endure more abuse in your marriage. Your husband is wrong in the way that he is treating you and not providing for you.

I would encourage you to contact Recovering Grace and let them put you in touch with a counselor to help you. I am sorry that your marriage is failing and that divorce appears to be in your future. Divorce isn't a pretty thing to go through, but it is sometimes a necessary thing. That is a decision for you to decide. No one else is walking in your shoes. I do not believe it is safe to stay in a relationship with anyone who is physically abusive. Verbal abuse can also be very traumatic. It sounds like you at least need some time away to pray, think clearly and to get some proper counsel.

Constance, when every one else fails you, try to remember that there is One who will never fail you. He will never forsake you and He will never stop loving you. He sticks closer than a brother. He is Jesus. There is nothing that you can do to cause Him to stop loving you more than He already does. ((Hugs))

Thanks for this piece! I am glad to know that I am not the only one who ended up with a skewed perception due to some of these teachings. I was never in IBLP, but I did read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye." Nevertheless, I did "date" briefly, but when I found out my boyfriend was cheating on me, I seriously was terrified of the idea of breaking up with him because it would mean I had dated more than one person before marriage! (and we hadn't even kissed... it was just the idea of breaking something off that felt like it was "wrong" somehow).

Fortunately, I did, and after a while I knew it was a good thing; several years later I finally ended up with my husband. I'm SO glad I didn't settle. I think many of the "kissed dating goodbye" principles have merit to them, and mean well, but it's so important not to take things to extremes. No one should feel like a harlot just because they don't marry the first person they date/court.

I know I am a few years late to this conversation but I wanted to thank you for sharing as it (and just about every other piece on RG) has been an encouragement as I have worked through these exact same issues in my own life; alone for the most part. Everyone else in the work camps is a foulmouthed, whisky guzzling, chew spitting, tough guy.

Of all of the issues and consequences that arose out of the ATI/IBLP teachings I think those with regard to relationships have caused the most problems for me and I believe have/will also for all those who still believe them and are taught them by their parents.

I too made a couple requirements for any person I dated. (yes dated, I took me a while to say it out loud but I think I always knew courtship wasn't for me and one failed attempt at getting to know a young lady through her father when I was 20 proved this for me) And they were eerily similar to those other listed above:

A. Don't know my family or anyone who knew my family growing up who still holds an ATI mindset or ideals,B. Doesn't know about or have any interest in the courtship model outlined and championed by Bill Gothard / ATI / IBLP and others,

On a side note moving away from home and halfway across the country was the best decision I ever made to get away from this mindset that pervaded home life. I wish I had made it the day I finally got my diploma from my parents. (and maybe got a copy of my high school "transcripts" which although no one cared about them out west in the work camps, colleges seem bent on having a copy of last summer..., thank goodness for placement tests) Making the decision to strike out on my own when I was 21 despite all sorts of opposition from my parents was better than it could have been had I waited longer; but I don't think I would have been able to recover (or begin at least) like I have over the past several years if I had lived at home much longer.

Thank you RG for providing a place for these stories. I hope this medium continues to be a place where those trying to rebuild their lives after an upbringing of legalism can come for encouragement.

I am new here too. I am also a senior citizen mom who, many years ago, and certainly unintentionally, put (3) sons through some difficulty and misery via Gothard's doctrine. I was not an ATI mom, but the seminars, combined with the fellowship of other church members who held the same mindset, was enough to cause havoc. One son has never recovered. I am still in the process of recovering and forgiving myself. I hope your present relationship with your parents is an enjoyable one.

huzandbuz:Unfortunately I can't say that my present relationship with my parents is an enjoyable one, but mostly out of necessity since I have, like most ATI families, a number of siblings who still live at home and because of the mindset and things we were taught won't be leaving to get out on their own until they get married (if this ever actually happens) or come to realizations and convictions of their own and leave like I did. This is in fact the hardest part for me since it is impossible to completely put all of this behind me with my siblings still struggling under these teachings and mindset, and my intense desire to be there for them and help in any way that I can; those much younger than myself in particular. If it wasn't for this I probably would have just disappeared and rebuilt my life where no one knows me or where I came from.

I am soooo incredibly sorry for your unfortunate past and continued difficult circumstances. Beloved siblings remaining at home.... heartbreaking. The multitude of lives devastated by this narcissist's teachings is still beyond comprehension to me!! Until I happened upon this site nearly a year ago, I was clueless.... (I had ONLY been aware of the negative impact on my own family.)

The fact that all of these allegations regarding Gothard are taking place has not influenced your parents to the contrary in any way??

No unfortunately the allegations, which somehow they apparently didn't know about until a few months ago, seem to have negated my concerns in their eyes because they see my opposition to some of the ATI/IBLP teachings as stemming from these allegations when in fact my opposition has been since I graduated HS nearly a decade ago and to a certain extent even before that although I didn't express my thoughts/ideas for a while after that.

On a brighter note a few of my siblings have in the past few weeks or so started thinking about moving out on their own so possibly/hopefully we can start heading toward action on more personal decisions on personal understandings of the Bible and its teachings and fear of repercussions for not following lock step with whatever they are told.

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