What's more, the devil essentially punishes people for being evil, and thus God keeps his own oh-so-holy hands clean while the devil is villified.

The Devil character in Sinfest seems to punish evil, and it is a common understanding, but that's not really particularly Christian. The Devil is among the punished, not really a punisher.

Inept Villain wrote:

God's agenda is actually *furthered* by the existence and actions of the devil. It makes no sense!

The Devil tempts people away from God, and toward evil. This doesn't further God's agenda. It is your assertions that are making no sense.

Inept Villain wrote:

You'd think the devil would do something smart to defy God, like reward the wicked instead of conning them.

You mean rewards like offering power, money, fame, etc.? Where are you trying to go with this?

Inept Villain wrote:

The only viable explanation is that God did, indeed, create the devil for the sole purpose of doing his dirty work.

Or there's the explanation that you've erred several times in setting up your "problem" of evil.

Man was I glad when I was this post. It meant I didn't have to say the same arguments in my verbally oafish manner. Well done sojobo._________________Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. -- Frederick Douglass

I don't see how hell could possibly be all that bad. Okay, sure, it's hot -- it's skin-crisping hot -- but so what? It'll be unpleasant for a while, of course, but you're stuck there for eternity. Might take you a few years -- hell, it might take you a thousand -- but at some point, it just won't seem that bad any more. Once you get over the constant pain you'll realize the whole place is just an empty threat, because it can't kill you. You might even start to enjoy yourself. Hell, why not make the best of it? You've got infinity years to waste, you might as well make the place feel like home.

I would try to have a good time, anyway.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Ha. Let me explain.

1) Hell is where god is not.
2) God is the source of every good thing. Therefore
3) there is no upside to hell. No getting used to it, no making it feel like home. You always see multiple people burning together in depictions, but I would think that since misery loves company, you would be alone forever as part of your punishment. Hell is not about the fire, but about seperation from all that is good in the world including it's creator.

Now you might think people would flock to christianity to escape hell, but really few do. You dont "escape" hell by following god, you follow god and end up the same place he's going (or is, reall). So Turn or Burn is really a stupid slogan; it really ought to be "follow your heart" becuase if your heart is toward god you end up with him, and if your heart is away from god, you end up there too._________________Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. -- Frederick Douglass

In Finland, you have freedom of religion, but you also have State-Funded churches, and several religious political parties.

Quote:

The new Religious Freedom Act, which was passed in February 2003 and took effect on August 1, 2003, [did a lot of stuff]
The law also replaced the concept of confessional religious instruction in primary and secondary schools is replaced by instruction in an individual's personal faith. A pupil has the right to obtain instruction in his or her personal faith and is responsible for attending classes in it. Teachers in Evangelical Lutheran Orthodox schools no longer must be members of a particular church.

So worry not. Apparently in Finland what was being described WAS perfectly ok at the time, but is no longer.

As long as it was a public school. If it was a private school they can force religion as much as they want, legally.

Has anyone here been punished for not standing up for standing for the pledge of allegiance in school? (Just curious) I was taken aside once in first grade, because I put the wrong hand over my heart by accident._________________"I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Origin of Species

1) Hell is where god is not.
2) God is the source of every good thing. Therefore
3) there is no upside to hell. No getting used to it, no making it feel like home. You always see multiple people burning together in depictions, but I would think that since misery loves company, you would be alone forever as part of your punishment. Hell is not about the fire, but about seperation from all that is good in the world including it's creator.

Now you might think people would flock to christianity to escape hell, but really few do. You dont "escape" hell by following god, you follow god and end up the same place he's going (or is, reall). So Turn or Burn is really a stupid slogan; it really ought to be "follow your heart" becuase if your heart is toward god you end up with him, and if your heart is away from god, you end up there too.

You speak of hell like you've been there.

Jesus tells his followers when they ask him about marriage rights in heaven that "heaven is beyond human understanding" So it would also make sense that hell, if it exists, is beyond that understanding as well. We have no idea what it would be like. For all we know, it could be like the Greek version of Hades, where we end up hungry, and in front of a banquet that turns to ash when we touch it, etc..._________________"I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Origin of Species

In Finland, you have freedom of religion, but you also have State-Funded churches, and several religious political parties.

Quote:

The new Religious Freedom Act, which was passed in February 2003 and took effect on August 1, 2003, [did a lot of stuff]
The law also replaced the concept of confessional religious instruction in primary and secondary schools is replaced by instruction in an individual's personal faith. A pupil has the right to obtain instruction in his or her personal faith and is responsible for attending classes in it. Teachers in Evangelical Lutheran Orthodox schools no longer must be members of a particular church.

So worry not. Apparently in Finland what was being described WAS perfectly ok at the time, but is no longer.

uh-huh, but only as far as "teaching religion" is concerned.

as i've been saying, the topical matter doesn't matter. it's the teaching method that's actually being scrutinized -- the use of humiliation -- and what subject was being taught at the moment (regardless of what class was in session) doesn't change the acceptability (or unacceptability) of that teaching method.

So worry not. Apparently in Finland what was being described WAS perfectly ok at the time, but is no longer.

uh-huh, but only as far as "teaching religion" is concerned.

as i've been saying, the topical matter doesn't matter. it's the teaching method that's actually being scrutinized -- the use of humiliation -- and what subject was being taught at the moment (regardless of what class was in session) doesn't change the acceptability (or unacceptability) of that teaching method.[/quote]
Oh, sorry.

I thought it was an issue of "this teacher has no business putting religion in the classroom"_________________"I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Origin of Species

Has anyone here been punished for not standing up for standing for the pledge of allegiance in school? (Just curious) I was taken aside once in first grade, because I put the wrong hand over my heart by accident.

i started a new school in the second grade. in my old school, we hadn't said the pledge of allegiance, so i didn't know the words, and i was really afraid of saying the wrong words, so i was just kind of mouthing along. the teacher thought i was being "smart", and she made me go stand out in the hall. i have no idea what sort of protest she thought a 2nd grader would be making.

sometimes i wonder that children survive school._________________aka: neverscared!

The Devil character in Sinfest seems to punish evil, and it is a common understanding, but that's not really particularly Christian. The Devil is among the punished, not really a punisher.

True enough, but it is still a confusing matter of perception. The Sinfest Devil is constantly preaching about the superiority of the dark side, and promotes that lifestyle to other people whenever possible. Yet, he doesn't really give a bent nickel about any situations in which he "wins" and God "loses" in regards to a human soul. He's only out to please himself (The ultimate end to the evil philosophy, I suppose.) Tempting people seems less like divine revenge to the Sinfest Devil, and more like a job. He spends the majority of his "off" time bickering with God.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that the Sinfest Devil isn't punished at all, unless being tormented by retard angels is considered as such.

Sojobo wrote:

The Devil tempts people away from God, and toward evil. This doesn't further God's agenda. It is your assertions that are making no sense.

Personally, I don't think I was ever *with* God. Therefore I can hardly be tempted away from something I never held in any particular reverence. Especially since the "devil's promises" hold no desire for me either. It's all a lot of clicks, whistles, and fictional propaganda.
You see, the devil does actually further God's agenda because the concept of hell provides a useful fear tactic for scaring people into bowing down. God is all about worship, and acknowledgement. Why is this? Vanity is the first thing which comes to mind, since if God were truly benign he wouldn't require something so petty.

Sojobo wrote:

You mean rewards like offering power, money, fame, etc.? Where are you trying to go with this?

I should think it was blatantly obvious. Instead of giving people deals with strings attached, the devil could turn hell into one huge dance party, just to spite God. Again, I am aware that the devil is named among the tormented... but that depends wholly on which version of the devil you're referring to. Sometimes the devil is trapped in a block of ice, sometimes he reigns over hell and demonic minions, and other times he's the CEO of a massive corporation. It all depends. The point is, the particular devil who "tempts" people isn't "waging war" on God by doing so. He's making hell a bad place to be, and thus causes people to not want to go there. If he made hell an enjoyable final destination for the wicked, I can see God losing a lot of support. No one actually likes God all that much. They just want to hang out at his super cool pad. You dig?

Sojobo wrote:

Or there's the explanation that you've erred several times in setting up your "problem" of evil.

There's always that possibility, but I will never know if Iím right or wrong unless I speculate, now will I? Unlike certain overly pretentious individuals, I make no claims of possessing irrefutable knowledge.

Right. And I am saying you are unjustified in saying so. I have no problem with you being judgemental. Judgemental people make life fun. I am simply pointing out how flimsy your reasons for being so in this case.

I suggested the teacher should be reprimanded and fired. Dro agreed with this. You agreed with Dro.

Where we differ is that you are outraged and I am not. We had a different emotional reaction to the story. And based on that different emotional reaction, you concluded that I was ignorant.

See the problem?

"Emotional reaction different than mine = stupid" isn't a good move to be making.

Lasairfiona wrote:

And the Devil is punisher as well as punishee acording to the Bible last time I checked

I wouldn't want to pressure you into doing something so distasteful... but could you perhaps check again and let me know where the Bible says this?

Lasairfiona wrote:

The Devil is also furthers God's agenda. See Job.

I've seen Job a number of times, and it is quite quiet about "God's agenda."_________________"To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others."
- Anne-Sophie Swetchine

There are plenty of fundies who believe we start life as sinners. Many baptists require acceptance of Jesus (John 3:16) before we're even given a chance to go to heaven -- babies are primed to burn in hell at conception. There's a bunch of other dogmatic rules, like Catholics requiring baptisms for salvation. Some sects require good deeds throughout life for worthy judgment, some require just faith in baby Jesus. This shouldn't be news to anyone on this board. Anyways, Mellow didn't claim himself to be a fundamentalist, he was referring to them, so he wasn't denying anything.

Continuing on. The Christian devil and hell are just recent constructs derived from old ideas (suddenly every evil being in the bible became a single devil based off pagan deities), because heaven wasn't a good enough deal breaker to convert everyone. Jews had a much more fair way of handling the afterlife (an eye for an eye, rather than an eye for eternal damnation way worse than anything that you could've possibly done in your life).

If hell is real, it's just proof that God is unjust and no better than the devil. If god knows who's going to hell before we're even born, then why create bad people? That's just cruel.

Sinner: I'm sorry GOD! I tried to become good, but I just couldn't control myself, you know my true feelings!
God: Yeah, I knew you were going to hell before you were even born. It's a tough life.
Sinner: Wait, you knew I was going to hell? You knew I was going to get punished by eternal pain greater than any of the sin I've committed? You knew how bad my childhood would be, and how fucked up I would become as an adult? THEN WHY DID YOU CREATE ME?
God: Shits and giggles, my son, shits and giggles. See you in an eternity! That's like, never for you; but for me, it's right after my pedicure.

If I were to sell my soul, I would sell it for two souls and then some, that's the only way I would sell my soul
But I don't really get the whole soul thing.
When you sell your soul, do you just go to hell when you die? OR are you void of life, but a corporate machine? (if that's so, then that would explain a ton)
And if you buy somebody else's soul and sell yours, do they have possesion of your body?
Or is it simply if you have a soul, then good for you, if not, one way ticket to hell?
It probably depends on the religion, but seeing as how we're on Christianity..
--donut3.5--

You know what, I reverse my stance. I fully support religious education, comparative religious education. I'm especially interested in kids learning the meaning of the word 'Syncretism', and how it applies to Christianity, Islam, Judaism, among others._________________bi-chromaticism is the extraordinary belief that there exists only two options
each polar opposite to each other
where one is completely superior to the other.

that's fine -- as an elective, or even an option among other comparative cultural studies to fullfill a categorical requirement, but as any sort of requirement in and of itself it strikes as total shit.

Your first post mentioned the Sinfest Devil specifically, but it looked like just an example within a response to Mellowfish, which made me assume that you were talking about the "real" "Christian" Devil.

In your later post, you seem to mix which you are talking about quite freely. I do not know how to answer you when your topic is shifting so often.

RE: Sinfest Devil:

Yes, of course you are correct. We see no punishment, and it has been more than implied that he is master of Hell. He is clearly a punisher rather than one of the punished.

Within this framework, the Devil is responsible for Hell, and your thought about its use as a fear tactic furthering God's agenda is reasonable, though I would still disagree with it, because God uses handpuppets to make jokes. He seems utterly unconcerned with people "bowing down" to Him. I don't know where you find the "agenda" you are attributing to Him.

Unless you are talking about Seymour, who does use Hell as a fear tactic, but we know Seymour is ridiculous (God describes him as a loony fanboy).

RE: Devil:

Inept Villain wrote:

Personally, I don't think I was ever *with* God. Therefore I can hardly be tempted away from something I never held in any particular reverence.

I'm not intending this as rude, but your thoughts about being with God aren't really important when you were questioning the Christian view of how things work. Cutting out a section of the worldview and substituting your own would mean you are no longer discussing Christianity but some wierd bastardized semi-Christianity.

Inept Villain wrote:

You see, the devil does actually further God's agenda because the concept of hell provides a useful fear tactic for scaring people into bowing down. God is all about worship, and acknowledgement. Why is this? Vanity is the first thing which comes to mind, since if God were truly benign he wouldn't require something so petty.

1) Being scared into bowing down is not worship.
2) God is all about love.
3) If worship is appropriate, desiring it is not vanity.
4) Worship is not petty.
5) Your "if God were truly benign" assertion is unclear and unsupported.

Inept Villain wrote:

I should think it was blatantly obvious. Instead of giving people deals with strings attached, the devil could turn hell into one huge dance party, just to spite God. Again, I am aware that the devil is named among the tormented... but that depends wholly on which version of the devil you're referring to. Sometimes the devil is trapped in a block of ice, sometimes he reigns over hell and demonic minions, and other times he's the CEO of a massive corporation. It all depends. The point is, the particular devil who "tempts" people isn't "waging war" on God by doing so. He's making hell a bad place to be, and thus causes people to not want to go there. If he made hell an enjoyable final destination for the wicked, I can see God losing a lot of support. No one actually likes God all that much. They just want to hang out at his super cool pad. You dig?

When you say it depends on which version of the devil I'm referring to, you are ignoring everything that has been said so far. I am referring to the Devil as partially described in the Bible. His relationship to the Lake of Fire is that he gets tossed into it to burn. He is not master of it. I made it quite clear which version I was talking about. You dig?

Inept Villain wrote:

No one actually likes God all that much. They just want to hang out at his super cool pad.

_________________"To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others."
- Anne-Sophie Swetchine