This just gets weirder and weirder. The below, from JMS, talks at length about all this Flashpoint stuff.

Bleeding Cool wrote:So, I was told recently that the original decision for DC to relaunch all their titles with 52 new issue ones was originally planned to follow the Final Crisis series, with emphasis on the 52 worlds therein. But, at the time, though pushed for by Dan DiDio and others, it was nixed by then-publisher Paul Levitz.

Which does seem to fit in with Joe Michael Straczynski’s account of a conversation with Dan DiDio about the relaunch this time – and JMS does stress later, he meant to say “relaunch” rather than “reboot”.

JMS wrote:When Dan DiDio comes out to the West Coast, we tend to get a bite for dinner to discuss projects, ideas, books and just hang. Dan is a great guy and an energetic speaker, chockful of ideas and aspirations for DC. As part of that, he shared repeatedly on and off for really more than a year his dream of rebooting the DCU and starting over.

So I felt confident that it was coming soon (which is one reason why I felt there wouldn’t be a problem in the long run leaving the monthly books, since most of the things done in Superman and Wonder Woman would be erased by the reboot anyway, so ultimately it didn’t matter whether I stayed or left. I just couldn’t say anything at the time because I wanted to respect Dan’s privacy and his desire to do what he thought was right when he thought it was right to do it.

To a degree, I think the success of Superman: Earth One was very helpful in showing that you could reboot a major character in a very personal sort of book and have it become a real hit (27 straight weeks and counting on the New York Times Bestseller List for graphic novels).

That said: end to end, top to bottom, front to back, this is Dan’s dream, and he’s fought long and hard to make this happen. I think it’s absolutely the right move at the right moment in history. If you think about how well the Flash, Green Lantern and Atom were rebooted during the Silver Age, those books made the characters more contemporary, personal and relevant to the 70s. Imagine how much poorer the comics world would be without those reboots, if there had never been a Hal Jordan, or a Barry Allen.

Taking that approach to rebooting the majority of the DC line is a gutsy move on an unparalleled scale, and I think Dan deserves a massive round of applause for making it. The business part of the comics business has been languishing for the last several years, with decreasing sales and media attention. Something this big, this brave, is exactly the shot in the arm it needed. There’s a saying in some of the British special forces: “Who dares, wins.” I think this was and will be seen in future as a winning move.

So JMS "meant to say relaunch and not reboot? Well, um, the entire context of what he's saying up there implies "reboot". "Starting over", "erased", etc. The whole tone of what he says there is a reboot.

Methinks there's something more going on here. Maybe DiDio is pushing for a hard reboot (which I'd support) while Geoff Johns and Jim Lee want to frame this as a relaunch.

This is simply the same info about George Perez doing the Superman title. The reason I post this though is because of one of the comments. And I quote:

#16 | lemarjones on June 7, 2011 8:07am ESTFor someone who has been reading comics since the late 70's, and someone who has been awed by his work, I just CAN'T get excited about him writing the Superman relaunch.

"What?!" you say? "It's Perez!!!"

Yes it is. My concern is that DC would pick someone who was in his prime 25 years ago (even though he's only 56) to write a Superman for today and tomorrow?

I'm not saying I don't like Perez. I actually LOVE his work, and for me, that's actually saying something. He actually has an awesome track record in the success of his work. If there was NO ONE else available, I'd pick him just to draw me a sketch for the heck of it. So He is very viable when it comes to successful comics.

But (you all knew a 'but' was coming sooner or later), I wouldn't want Chubby Checker bringing anything fresh to the table in music for my generation, and I doubt, anyone would want George Michael tryng to bring anything fresh to the kids of this generation.

Those folks did an awesome job in their prime and in their time. But how can they relate today? It's not impossible. Many folks make 'comebacks,' but this isn't a comeback. It's, in my opinion, an emotional decision. It's not picking new folks to carry the reigns. It's like picking Elvis to do a rap album. It's like picking P Diddy to do a gospel album.

Many will disagree, and I honestly hope I'm more wrong than a ham casserole being served at a Bar mitzvah. That being said, I still have an unsure feeling about it.

You just gotta love duh apologists huh?! So Perez was in his prime 25 years ago? Now he's an old, fat, washed-up has-been?! Like this freak, "Oh I love Perez but I have concerns!"

Wow. If you're not excited about Perez coming onboard because you're just not hip to the new direction Superman seems to be going in, hey, I got no argument for you. Hell, I'm almost right there with you. It's for Perez ALONE that I'll be picking up the book so I'm right there with you.

Ya the whole thing is still a mess on the revamp. Sure it would have sucked for characters like teen titans, to wally, and some others. Loosing massive histories on them. But it would have been prime to do a hard reboot and all that. Where it just seems everyhing is the same. Minus maybe a few changes to little details, and renumbering the books. Also it looks like I did get perez and morrison mixed up. George will be on superman, and morrison will be on action comics.

I really don't get the fascination with the high collars but whatever.

That sucks major balls! And what is it with the collars anyway?! Is that a 'gay thing' that's shades of Singerman & duh Homopage?! Maybe the films ain't the only media source that needs real men to do the job?!

First with supergirl design wise it looks like a nice design patterns. I too still don't care for the high collars or for supergirl how the cape attachment is. But with supergirl she has had so many costumes over the yrs so I am not that huffy over her changes. Superboy cover looking interesting. Seems to be in some cloning/birthing matrix machine simular to that one superman cover a few yrs back with brainiac in a simular machine like thing. Now for superman well first off nice to finally get a full shot of the new suit. First off looks like we got a more normal looking s shield compared to the jl cover shot. Still pissed with the high collar and no trunk. Surprised the belt is red instead of yellow/gold, and the boots do look like crap. I do hope if enough folks complain about the look they will decide to change it back to something more normal.

Also according to bleedingcool action comics #1 cover should be online tomorrow.

#35 | Sabaoth on June 9, 2011 8:30pm ESTLooks awesome.Tomorrow we will be getting the cover for Action Comics #1, so we'll have another glimpse of the new suit.@1,yes, I'm pretty sure this is the suit we will see in Man of Steel. Knowing Nolan's love for armor, it's not surprising at all!

I also think that George Perez left the old shield on by error. I think the new shield is the one from the Justice League #1 and Supergirl #1.The new shield looks like the one from Superman Lives...cool!

#36 | Sabaoth on June 9, 2011 8:31pm ESTI'm also happy that the marriage is over!

#67 | Sabaoth on June 9, 2011 11:49pm EST@62No bro! The "boyscout" image is an albatross round Superman's neck courtesy of Frank Miller's DKR.Dumping the trunks is a first step toward the full redemption of the Man of Steel.Tomorrow we will be getting more good news!

83 comments & growing! Duh apologists are 'licking' this up!

Last edited by non_amos on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total

#67 | Sabaoth on June 9, 2011 11:49pm EST@62No bro! The "boyscout" image is an albatross round Superman's neck courtesy of Frank Miller's DKR.Dumping the trunks is a first step toward the full redemption of the Man of Steel.Tomorrow we will be getting more good news!

83 comments & growing! Duh apologists are 'licking' this up!

That'd be right. I suppose Superman's US citizenship was another albatross around his neck too......

I must've had it wrong all these years because I thought his boyscout image was because he was a really good guy. Perhaps a bit old fashioned, but essentially a trustworthy "good" guy who stood for what the USA stood for. You know, unlike the creep we got in the last movie.

What it means to be Superman seems to have been blurred now ever since Singer's debacle. I still maintain he didn't need fixing....as the last 5 minutes of Smallville proved.

I don't know...when Superman is not a "boyscout" anymore, or an American citizen I gotta wonder wtf is going on. Go put your own stamp on somebody else's character, or go make up your own superhero and then come back in 70 years time and see if anyone remembers it.....

This is simply the same info about George Perez doing the Superman title. The reason I post this though is because of one of the comments. And I quote:

[quote]#16 | lemarjones on June 7, 2011 8:07am ESTFor someone who has been reading comics since the late 70's, and someone who has been awed by his work, I just CAN'T get excited about him writing the Superman relaunch.

"What?!" you say? "It's Perez!!!"

Yes it is. My concern is that DC would pick someone who was in his prime 25 years ago (even though he's only 56) to write a Superman for today and tomorrow?

I'm not saying I don't like Perez. I actually LOVE his work, and for me, that's actually saying something. He actually has an awesome track record in the success of his work. If there was NO ONE else available, I'd pick him just to draw me a sketch for the heck of it. So He is very viable when it comes to successful comics.

But (you all knew a 'but' was coming sooner or later), I wouldn't want Chubby Checker bringing anything fresh to the table in music for my generation, and I doubt, anyone would want George Michael tryng to bring anything fresh to the kids of this generation.

Those folks did an awesome job in their prime and in their time. But how can they relate today? It's not impossible. Many folks make 'comebacks,' but this isn't a comeback. It's, in my opinion, an emotional decision. It's not picking new folks to carry the reigns. It's like picking Elvis to do a rap album. It's like picking P Diddy to do a gospel album.

Many will disagree, and I honestly hope I'm more wrong than a ham casserole being served at a Bar mitzvah. That being said, I still have an unsure feeling about it./quote]

non_amos wrote:You just gotta love duh apologists huh?! So Perez was in his prime 25 years ago? Now he's an old, fat, washed-up has-been?! Like this freak, "Oh I love Perez but I have concerns!"

Like those Mastercard commercials say:

PRICELESS!

I can't disagree with you, man. Perez has a pretty timeless style. He understands how to adapt. He had a pretty 80's style back in the 80's. He had a pretty 90's style in the 90's. His modern stuff looks modern.

But through out, it's all recognizably Perez.

Matter of fact, more and more I'm starting to think of George Perez (as a penciller) the same way I think of Mark Waid (as a writer and editor); if you don't like those guys, sorry to say but YOU DON'T LIKE COMICS. Period. I can see preferring other artists or other writers. No sin there. But not to respect them as talents in their areas TO THIS DAY? Sorry dude, that's a bridge too far for me.

Once again, it comes down to the fans. Love or hate a Superman suit without trunks (it doesn't really deserve to be called The Suit), love or hate Flashpoint as a concept, FANS recognize Perez as an A-list talent. Maybe they're not onboard with the direction Superman's going in (which is completely fucking beside the point), FANS can at least see why some might think it's cool that Perez is finally returning to Superman.

Apologists and douchebags? They bitch and complain about Perez.

That's all the difference you need, right there. Fans are excited (or, at a minimum, can relate); Apologists are pissed off. It's as simple as that.

non_amos wrote:How about a few 'turn nuggets' from our old pal Sabaoth:

Not sure what you mean. Everybody knows that Sabaoth could be the next gatekeeper of Superman's history and legacy. Big duh!

Oy...

Sabaoth wrote:#36 | Sabaoth on June 9, 2011 8:31pm ESTI'm also happy that the marriage is over!

...

It's really hard to find words to answer something this stupid. I mean, this could be the most idiotic thing I've ever read in my entire life. He CAN'T POSSIBLY get any worse or any more ignorant than this.

I stand corrected. THIS is the most idiotic thing I've ever read (not to mention that Miller had nothing to do with inventing it).

Dumping the trunks is a first step toward the full redemption of the Man of Steel.

*sigh* Okay. THIS is the most idiotic thing I've ever read. I've spouted zillions of times on this board how important and iconic The Suit is. If I haven't convinced someone by now, it's because I'm not going to.

I've taken a lot of shit for my line that not all opinions are "equally valid", that some opinions should be rejected out of hand without wasting brain power on considering them. Pretty much everything Sagayoth writes perfectly illustrates this. I mean, the fuckin guy is wrong about EVERYTHING. I'm almost to the point that if he ever says "the sky is blue", I'll fucking go outside to double check!

Separately (and not to pat myself on the back), ages ago I floated a conspiracy theory. I suggested that all of the leaked concept images of redesigned versions of The Suit for aborted Superman films was a trial balloon for the Snyder reboot.

Obviously I was wrong. Looks like all of the leaked concept images of redesigned versions of The Suit for aborted Superman films was a trial balloon for the post-Flashpoint comics.

I was wrong... but also slightly right depending on how you look at it.

Speaking of being right, yeah, looks like Puncher pretty much nailed it with his concept art.

Personally to me I doubt this suit will be film suit. Look at other times for cartoons/other media where they did one suit but other media did something different. Plus we know snyder loves the classic look. I still hope for dc case if there is alot of negativeity to it, it will change quick no different then black suit, long hair superman, superman red/blue, and other silly designs they did through the yrs.

webhead2006 wrote:Personally to me I doubt this suit will be film suit. Look at other times for cartoons/other media where they did one suit but other media did something different. Plus we know snyder loves the classic look.

Do we?

I still hope for dc case if there is alot of negativeity to it, it will change quick no different then black suit,

That lasted, what, two months? It was never meant to be permanent. Hell, it wasn't even meant to be temporary. It was just a provisional outfit he wore for maybe two issues (of all the titles) before his powers and original outfit were restored.

long hair superman,

(A) That's not any significant revision to his overall appearance and (B) that lasted five years. Both would tend to undermine your point.

superman red/blue,

I assume you mean the electric thing from the 90's. Again, it stuck around for a while but it wasn't meant to be permanent. Superman creative folk played coy with the media but it's obvious from the get-go that they planned to restore the original outfit and powers sooner or later.

What I'm driving at here is that the end of those things wasn't determined by fan reaction. To the extent fandom even had opinions on those things, it was all for naught given that none were intended to be permanent; the Jim Lee suit is apparently going to be his look from now on (yeah, right).

And given the useful idiots over at the Younis page, I sincerely doubt DC is getting a wholly negative vibe from "the fans".

All this to say that the situation we're in now is VERY different from the non-examples you cited above.

Dumping the trunks is a first step toward the full redemption of the Man of Steel.

*sigh* Okay. THIS is the most idiotic thing I've ever read. I've spouted zillions of times on this board how important and iconic The Suit is. If I haven't convinced someone by now, it's because I'm not going to.

I've taken a lot of shit for my line that not all opinions are "equally valid", that some opinions should be rejected out of hand without wasting brain power on considering them. Pretty much everything Sagayoth writes perfectly illustrates this. I mean, the fuckin guy is wrong about EVERYTHING. I'm almost to the point that if he ever says "the sky is blue", I'll fucking go outside to double check!

Yeah, spot on.

After reading that clown celebrating the loss of the the "boyscout" image and the iconic suit I had to go out and buy some smokes.....

Also bleeding cool confirms perez will only be writing superman not also drawing it.

Hmm. Well, I'm still going to check it out but they'd just better hope the new penciller is awesome.

What I don't get is how does DC expect this crap to actually SELL?! I mean, the covers I've seen so far are HORRIBLE! This includes the Superman-related ones. IMHO, even some of the artwork itself looks 'craptastic' to put it kindly. And duh concepts DC is coming up with sound even WORSE! And WHY ruin ACTION COMICS from reaching issue #1000?! When it's just a few years from it?! And the real Action #1 does have an iconic cover, simplistic though the artwork is, & a 'Near Mint' copy now sells for over a million bucks!

How much do you think this crapola will be worth in a few years? Probably virtually worthless. Because of George Perez on the Superman title, I actually felt like maybe even buying some myself, but the more garbage that DC rolls out, the less intrigued I become.

non_amos wrote:What I don't get is how does DC expect this crap to actually SELL?!

There's a sense in which it's kind of a win-win proposition for them. If people are talking, that'll have a likely positive effect on sales. But if people get too pissed off, they can restore the previous continuity "by popular demand".

non_amos wrote:And WHY ruin ACTION COMICS from reaching issue #1000?! When it's just a few years from it?!

That's one thing I have absolutely ZERO fear about. There can be no doubt that DC will restore the original numbering of your legacy books like Batman, Detective Comics, Action Comics, Superman, etc. There's simply too much history to ignore there. Plus, at least as far as Action Comics is concerned, they have eight years to bring the original number and, what, six and a half or seven for Superman? They'll get there. Believe it.

Unless the industry itself keels over, but that's a separate issue.

The comments are growing here too. However, it seems that even some of that 'species' known as apologists are just as pissed off as we are:

Apologist jerk wrote:#36 | Daniel McIntosh on June 10, 2011 8:52pm ESTSuddenly Superman Returns doesn't seem all that bad now does it people?

Fuck that noise, jack. Sorry but NOTHING will EVER improve Singerman. The Superman comics could all suck so much they have their own event horizon and they'd STILL never be as bad as Singerman.

Oh really? So you've definitively made up your mind with certainty? Seems to me Apologist boy here is redundantly repetitive and redundant.

Good grief, that entire page is fast becoming a blackhole of IQ points.

non_amos wrote:Sure, the guy is an apologist & therefore is for Singerman, but look at how he views this current state of the comics. Kinda mirrors our own views, more or less.

I guess it'd carry more weight if I was convinced he owned more than a trade paperback or two. But since he's an Apologist and thus probably only has Sucky Origin and STM in every single available format, he's got jackshit for credibility with me.

But for argument's sake, let's say he owns a complete run of Action Comics (all 900+ issues). BFD, he's still an Apologist so his opinion counts for nothing any way you care to slice it.

thecolorsblend wrote:Fuck that noise, jack. Sorry but NOTHING will EVER improve Singerman. The Superman comics could all suck so much they have their own event horizon and they'd STILL never be as bad as Singerman.

You know, I thought it would be impossible for Singerman to sink any lower in my opinion, but it did.

My Blu-ray box turned up yesterday and I gave STM and Singerman a side by side quality comparison. They have done an amazing job on STM, you can actually see the fabric in Reeve's costume! As for the new DTS-MA audio.....just mindblowing. The neighbours must've loved me last night!

thecolorsblend wrote:There's a sense in which it's kind of a win-win proposition for them. If people are talking, that'll have a likely positive effect on sales. But if people get too pissed off, they can restore the previous continuity "by popular demand".

Yep. Could this possibly be just another "Death of Superman" scenario? Get a burst of interest just out of curiosity, and if that wanes, back to the original?

Or a dream? Lol....I'll wake up soon and realize to my horror that I've admitted on here that I rewatched a bit of Singerman!!!!