Why God must exist

The fine tuning argument says there must have been a god. It was said that if the universe has had a change by 1 in 10^100 the universe wouldn't exist or would not be habitable for life. Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. So in order for the universe to exist and be so finely tuned there must have been an incorporeal first cause that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omnipotent. Those are the characteristics of a god.

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God.

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God.

Quoting: Amilius

With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be?

Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123.

Quoting: Amilius

The chances for life are much, much higher...

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584

What do you think the odds are that a super-being can come from nothing?

Given two scenarios, one in which nothing exists, and one in which a super-being just happened to exist, outside of time, and is all powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, etc....which is more likely?

Given two scenarios, one in which a universe, such as ours, just happened to exist, "outside" of time, as time is a simply a property of it, and another scenario in which a super-being outside of time made that universe, which is more likely?

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God.

Quoting: Amilius

With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

This argument says a being that has all the qualities of a god, which therefore is a god, must exist. How did God came to be? God is the first cause therefore has always existed. Since there was no time before the universe began, God therefore must be above time too. SOMEONE DESIGNED OUR UNIVERSE. IT COULDN'T HAVE COME OUT OF CHANCE. Such a being has such powers we could call it God.

Quoting: Amilius

With all due respect, I don't think you addressed my counter argument. Claiming that god is "outside" of time does not explain anything about how god came to be. If you accept that a god could exist, and it does not bother you that you cannot explain how god came to be, why is it so hard for you to accept that the universe simply exists and we cannot explain how it came to be?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.

Quoting: Amilius

On what basis can you claim that the universe is subjected to time, rather than time being a property of it? Your claim of god being outside of time can just as easily be attributed to the universe itself.

If I understand you correctly, if something is outside of time, you don't have to explain how it came to be, as that would not make any sense. So what I am essentially proposing is that this property can also be attributed to the universe. How you attribute this property does not really matter. Off the top of my head, I'd say the big bang/big crunch hypothesis would suffice. Or, the universe itself is all that exists, and within that existence, we observe evidence of a big bang. However, the material that came from the big bang may not be all that exists, rather, just a bubble emerging from a greater existence. Time only exists within the bubble, or multiples thereof.

My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.

Quoting: Amilius

But how do you know what God is or what he represents?

God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts.

It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding...

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584

All I KNOW is that God is the first cause.

Quoting: Amilius

You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head.

My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.

Quoting: Amilius

But how do you know what God is or what he represents?

God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts.

It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding...

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584

All I KNOW is that God is the first cause.

Quoting: Amilius

You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

First cause should also be omnipotent as it could create universes. Something incorporeal, unmoved and omnipotent. That seems like God to me.