Originally posted by gibson00:Interesting. Both my gp, and the endocrinologist always had me do the tests first thing in the morning. It seemed like that was the 'standard', that when they are looking at levels, it is that highest level they want to see.Yes, test levels will typically be much higher first thing in the morning. So which is considered a man's true level, his morning level, or his afternoon level? I thought it was morning.

This is only true before you begin TRT. Then it is important to do the test in the morning. But after you start TRT your body will shut down production natural T and become dependent on the supplemental T. Therefore the timing of the dose relative to the blood draw is also important. In dosing T, it is generally more useful to know your nadir value rather than your peak value. It's the nadir value that determines symptoms so you want to make sure you have that above the minimum amount needed.

Originally posted by gibson00:Interesting. Both my gp, and the endocrinologist always had me do the tests first thing in the morning.

55Guy answered your basic question and I agree with him. Test in the morning before gel is applied, and for me I want to know what mine is like around mid day and afternoon. I get a slight rush after I apply 1.6% Androgel in the morning so I know it is being absorbed more quickly when first applied.

Why did they put you on TRT? What is your condition? Is it pituitary related?

Hopeful46. Any glass non digital therm will do. It does not have to be specifically for basal. Just put the taking end in ur armpit and close it for 10 min. I do this while Im still in bed and before I get up in the morning. I shake the therm down before going to bed and have it on the night stand so I can just get it in the moning while still in bed. Lay still during the 10 min and keep a log for a week of your temps. Mine were in the mid 96s! (norm is 97.8-98.2) I started on 30mg of Armour and my temp is now consistently at 97.2. I will keep increasing my dose in 15mg increments every two weeks until my basal temp is 98-98.2. This is all in the books from Drs. Starr amd Brody. Problem with labs are if you are in range ur doc will feel its not your thyroid. My TSH was great at .98, but my basal temp was low and had many hypo symptoms. My doc is letting me dose based on basal temps. You have to find a doc that will allow this. Good luck.

Devilhorse8 Look at your thyroid. A lot of low T and hypo symptoms overlap and T will not be maximized unless thyroid is in good shape. See what your basal temp is for a week. Im sorry I keep harping on the thyroid but these two books have opened my eyes. If any man is having symptoms and especially if their mom has thyroid issues they should focus on the thyroid. Dr. Starr estimates that 50% of the population is hypo. I had low T due to varicocele, so Im addressing both Low T and thyroid.

Thanks for the replies. Youthfull55guy don't worry about being blunt or straight foward with me. I like that approach. I am here to get answers and trying to fix my problem. I have been trying to get in with an endo but there are only a couple in my area and they won't take any new patients until Feb. I wish my GP had tested everything up front but he sais he did not know about it at the time. I am hoping since my levels never really came up to much it won't be to bad to come off and test the things like we should have. However is this not a good idea? If not I am not sure I have much choice anyway at this point.

Wolverine two different GPs had checked my throid and said no problems. I have however had a friend that had the same issue and the endo found he did indeed have a thyroid issue.

Like I say I have tried to read as much as I can here but its a lot to take in and a lot of times with everything I have going on its hard for me to make myself understand it. I am open to suggest. I know I have read a few post on the basal temps but I was skimming over a lot of it. Can someone tell me exactly how to approach this or share a link with me to find it. I will try to read back through and see what I can find on it or google it but incase I don't I would be interested in what type of thermometer to use.

Originally posted by Wolverine3309:Hopeful46. Any glass non digital therm will do. It does not have to be specifically for basal. Just put the taking end in ur armpit and close it for 10 min. I do this while Im still in bed and before I get up in the morning. I shake the therm down before going to bed and have it on the night stand so I can just get it in the moning while still in bed. Lay still during the 10 min and keep a log for a week of your temps. Mine were in the mid 96s! (norm is 97.8-98.2) I started on 30mg of Armour and my temp is now consistently at 97.2. I will keep increasing my dose in 15mg increments every two weeks until my basal temp is 98-98.2. This is all in the books from Drs. Starr amd Brody. Problem with labs are if you are in range ur doc will feel its not your thyroid. My TSH was great at .98, but my basal temp was low and had many hypo symptoms. My doc is letting me dose based on basal temps. You have to find a doc that will allow this. Good luck.

Very interesting discussion. Enough to get me interested in at least monitoring my basal morning temperature for a while. I don't think I'm getting enough Armour because my feet are still cold in the morning. I've had to wear socks to bed for about 6 years now. Armour helped with the cold feet but not enough to sleep in the raw. Anyway, this will be good information to discuss with my doc in our annual face to face appointment in March.

Wolverine two different GPs had checked my throid and said no problems. I have however had a friend that had the same issue and the endo found he did indeed have a thyroid issue.

GP's generally don't know what they are looking for and often endos don't ether. Most of the time they look at your TSH or your T4 and say you're fine. And If they look at your T3, they rarely look at your rT3 and it the ratio of the two that important.

I have been doing TRT for almost a year and a half now and it has been nuts. I started out at 140ml every 10 days. When I retested I was even lower and had to go up. I went from doing it every 10 days back to every 7 and so on and so on. The first 7 months on this stuff made me lose weight, gain muscle, and a ton of strength but then I plateaued. I am still in good shape but just not getting much stronger. Now I am all the way up to 260ml every 10 days. For a while even that was not doing the trick then they gave me some HCG and now I am back on track and feeling pretty charged. I finally got sick of paying the 30 dollar copay every 10 days and went to my Doctor. She gave me 200ml every 2 weeks to start. When I told her I thought that was not enough she said she did not know if the other place was giving me CYP or Eth or what exactly they were giving me and she wanted to try this and what the blood test shows on the 26th. That will be mid-point after a Thursday self-administered shot. She seems to think that healthy levels are between 600 and 1000 while the Low T Center guys never wanted you above 700. I think I would be more than comfortable at 800 or 900 at my peak since I am only 37. I am hoping either this dose is good or she is willing to give me more after my next test. I will then be able to get 6 months’ worth at time and just do it myself. The only problem with her though is she balks at the use of HCG and does not seem to want to subscribe it. I have a problem with that since I now know it works. If she can get me on track this will save me a lot of money and time.

This probably won't be a very popular post....But one thing I find bothersome about what I read on this forum, is that a lot of folks seem to be treating TRT as some sort of optimization/cycle.The body has all sorts of hormones, nutrients, etc that it keeps a balance of. Of course we have recognized normal ranges for these......ranges that it is normal for the body to be within. But that doesn't mean its safe to force one of your body's measurements to be at a high point in that range.If using TRT at all, shouldn't you just be aiming to get into that normal range to treat specific symptoms??I read people's comments like "I think I'd like to be at an 800"....Well, if normal range starts at 300, then forcing your body to 800 is abusing TRT, IMHO. No different than doing a 'cycle' of sorts. And your body will then be trying to adjust all the other hormones, etc, to balance what you are putting in to it. Which I guess is why the bulk of the discussion here seems to be what other drugs to add in to fix that balance (HCG, etc).I think rather than trying to normalize as much as possible, folks here are trying to abuse the drug to 'optimize' how they feel. I hope there are no serious consequences in the long terms for doing that.And if you are having to pump yourself full of huge doses of test to try to feel normal, you've likely got other things going on that your gp should be looking into, instead of giving you more hormones.Sorry for the rant, nothing personal and I appreciate the info I've gained here, but geez....

Wolverine two different GPs had checked my throid and said no problems. I have however had a friend that had the same issue and the endo found he did indeed have a thyroid issue.

GP's generally don't know what they are looking for and often endos don't ether. Most of the time they look at your TSH or your T4 and say you're fine. And If they look at your T3, they rarely look at your rT3 and it the ratio of the two that important.

What kind of doctor should I be looking at to check into this or should the basal temps answer the question?

Originally posted by ziggypop5339:I have been doing TRT for almost a year and a half now and it has been nuts. I started out at 140ml every 10 days. When I retested I was even lower and had to go up. I went from doing it every 10 days back to every 7 and so on and so on. The first 7 months on this stuff made me lose weight, gain muscle, and a ton of strength but then I plateaued. I am still in good shape but just not getting much stronger. Now I am all the way up to 260ml every 10 days. For a while even that was not doing the trick then they gave me some HCG and now I am back on track and feeling pretty charged. I finally got sick of paying the 30 dollar copay every 10 days and went to my Doctor. She gave me 200ml every 2 weeks to start. When I told her I thought that was not enough she said she did not know if the other place was giving me CYP or Eth or what exactly they were giving me and she wanted to try this and what the blood test shows on the 26th. That will be mid-point after a Thursday self-administered shot. She seems to think that healthy levels are between 600 and 1000 while the Low T Center guys never wanted you above 700. I think I would be more than comfortable at 800 or 900 at my peak since I am only 37. I am hoping either this dose is good or she is willing to give me more after my next test. I will then be able to get 6 months’ worth at time and just do it myself. The only problem with her though is she balks at the use of HCG and does not seem to want to subscribe it. I have a problem with that since I now know it works. If she can get me on track this will save me a lot of money and time.

Personally, I'd never go back to a clinic that insists on administering the treatment. It's a real pain in the a$$.

You new doc seems to be somewhat in the know, but why not pursue more frequent injections of smaller amounts? THis will give you a much smoother ride, you'll need less T overall, and it will mimic natural hormone secretion much more closely which will help minimize conversion to E. I'm a big believer in every 3 day dosing.

Regarding HCG, many docs have a hard time going off label for this fertility med, but I think it's useful, healthy, and necessary to have normally functioning testicles. They produce a wide range of intermediary hormones that feed into other steroid hormone pathways (Pregnenolone and DHEA most importantly). Also, without HCG, the volume of your ejaculates will get smaller and smaller, and as most guys have learned over time, the larger the payload, the more pleasurable the outcome. Enough said. THe why is simple, the bulk of your ejaculate is produced in the seminal vesicles and the prostate and they require both testosterone and LH for normal functioning. When you go on TRT, your LH drops to near zero due to feedback inhibition from the exogenous T. HCG fills that gap because it is an LH analog.

Also remember that your testicles will shrink to the size of almonds without HCG, so it is cosmetically and psychologically important to a lot of us. Kind of the equivalent of boob size in women, small boobs usually work just fine but why live with the condition if you have options? For guys though, it's complicated by the fact that there are health and functionality issues tied to the size of your testicles.

As far as ranges of T, your doc is in the right ballpark. Basically anything between about 800 and 1200 is just fine unless you have exceptionally high SHBG. I find, that the more frequent you inject, the lower you can go on the nadir value.

Originally posted by gibson00:This probably won't be a very popular post....But one thing I find bothersome about what I read on this forum, is that a lot of folks seem to be treating TRT as some sort of optimization/cycle.The body has all sorts of hormones, nutrients, etc that it keeps a balance of. Of course we have recognized normal ranges for these......ranges that it is normal for the body to be within. But that doesn't mean its safe to force one of your body's measurements to be at a high point in that range.If using TRT at all, shouldn't you just be aiming to get into that normal range to treat specific symptoms??I read people's comments like "I think I'd like to be at an 800"....Well, if normal range starts at 300, then forcing your body to 800 is abusing TRT, IMHO. No different than doing a 'cycle' of sorts. And your body will then be trying to adjust all the other hormones, etc, to balance what you are putting in to it. Which I guess is why the bulk of the discussion here seems to be what other drugs to add in to fix that balance (HCG, etc).I think rather than trying to normalize as much as possible, folks here are trying to abuse the drug to 'optimize' how they feel. I hope there are no serious consequences in the long terms for doing that.And if you are having to pump yourself full of huge doses of test to try to feel normal, you've likely got other things going on that your gp should be looking into, instead of giving you more hormones.Sorry for the rant, nothing personal and I appreciate the info I've gained here, but geez....

I agree and disagree. Feeling is important because many guys have high SHBG which renders T nonbioavailable to the brain. In cases like this, you have to push the upper end of the acceptable range to feel "normal". In these situations, you have to let side-effects determine the dose limitations. I know I feel better and closer to "normal" with a higher dose, but my hematocrit goes out of range. Therefore I just have to accept my highest dose as the best I can be. Even then I am so far above the ranges that I peg the meter. Again, side-effects drive the dose for me.

Yes, some guys here try to push the limit just to feel pumped. I call it the superman effect, and I agree that this is bordering on anabolic steroid abuse and that gives this life altering (I'd even say saving)treatment a black eye. Pity.

Wolverine two different GPs had checked my throid and said no problems. I have however had a friend that had the same issue and the endo found he did indeed have a thyroid issue.

GP's generally don't know what they are looking for and often endos don't ether. Most of the time they look at your TSH or your T4 and say you're fine. And If they look at your T3, they rarely look at your rT3 and it the ratio of the two that important.

What kind of doctor should I be looking at to check into this or should the basal temps answer the question?

Good question but not a straight forward easy answer.

You need to find a doc that is experienced in the treatment and stays up on modern protocols and not just what they leaned in textbooks or in the latest pharmacy-sponsored $1000 breakfast lecture at a medical conference.

Usually this means the Anti Aging docs, but most of them are pricy and don't take insurance. You can waist a lot of time and energy chasing after enlightened mainstream docs,but my solution was to bite the bullet and seek out a very high level AA doc. I have absolutely no regrets and he's worth his weight in gold. THen again, he gets it from me too!

Thanks Youthful55Guy, I really appreciate the knowledge you bring to this forum.

I had one more thing happen today. When I picked up my stuff from Walgreen's they didn't give me any syringes. I called and they said you had to request them and pay 50 cents apiece. I went in today and the had no idea what kind of needle to give me for test. He ended up looking something up and gave me 12 of them. I was wondering if there is a specific gauge needle people use. He said he had to give me a certain one because test is so thick.

Originally posted by gibson00:This probably won't be a very popular post....But one thing I find bothersome about what I read on this forum, is that a lot of folks seem to be treating TRT as some sort of optimization/cycle.The body has all sorts of hormones, nutrients, etc that it keeps a balance of. Of course we have recognized normal ranges for these......ranges that it is normal for the body to be within. But that doesn't mean its safe to force one of your body's measurements to be at a high point in that range.If using TRT at all, shouldn't you just be aiming to get into that normal range to treat specific symptoms??I read people's comments like "I think I'd like to be at an 800"....Well, if normal range starts at 300, then forcing your body to 800 is abusing TRT, IMHO. No different than doing a 'cycle' of sorts. And your body will then be trying to adjust all the other hormones, etc, to balance what you are putting in to it. Which I guess is why the bulk of the discussion here seems to be what other drugs to add in to fix that balance (HCG, etc).I think rather than trying to normalize as much as possible, folks here are trying to abuse the drug to 'optimize' how they feel. I hope there are no serious consequences in the long terms for doing that.And if you are having to pump yourself full of huge doses of test to try to feel normal, you've likely got other things going on that your gp should be looking into, instead of giving you more hormones.Sorry for the rant, nothing personal and I appreciate the info I've gained here, but geez....

I have not been here as much as I would like and have been breezing thru the new posts but I have to chime in on this. Those here that are chasing a total T # have not read the entire thread, we discussed this a while ago and if you are "chasing a magic #" with total T, you are chasing your tail. Total T means nothing when applied to TRT, free T is where you want to be, ranges that that labs use from 300 to 1700 are meaningless. Although to get into TRT most docs use the Total T reading and with the androgel/axiron commercials pounding the airways as a "cure all" is not helping. Again, I have not been reading all the posts but HCG and Arimidex are not used for balancing things out as much as they are for the side effects of TRT (for me anyway). You can also read on hypogonadism in previous posts and I can testify that HCG really helps although finding a sweet spot for my E level has been a challenge. My 2 cents worth......

Originally posted by ziggypop5339:Thanks Youthful55Guy, I really appreciate the knowledge you bring to this forum.

I had one more thing happen today. When I picked up my stuff from Walgreen's they didn't give me any syringes. I called and they said you had to request them and pay 50 cents apiece. I went in today and the had no idea what kind of needle to give me for test. He ended up looking something up and gave me 12 of them. I was wondering if there is a specific gauge needle people use. He said he had to give me a certain one because test is so thick.

I'm sure they gave you a harpoon. Probably 18G or something like that. You should never have to go any larger than a 25G, particularly if you keep the small frequent dosage. I've even gone down to a 30G and it worked well with a little effort.

I see a lot that fatigue, tiredness, aching etc is one of the main symptoms of low testosterone, but I was wondering if people are able to explain their symptoms more specifically?

The best way that I can describe mine are that it feels very similar to that all-over achey feeling you get when you have the flu... and that it gets worse, and feels even more flu-like, with physical exertion.

Originally posted by elking:I see a lot that fatigue, tiredness, aching etc is one of the main symptoms of low testosterone, but I was wondering if people are able to explain their symptoms more specifically?

The best way that I can describe mine are that it feels very similar to that all-over achey feeling you get when you have the flu... and that it gets worse, and feels even more flu-like, with physical exertion.

Anyone else feel like this and, if so, found any respite through TRT?

That's kind of the problem with it. The symptoms aren't very "spot on". The blood test will tell if your low on T but there may be other factors as well all adding up to one big problem of feeling like crap and can't figure out why. For example "brain fog" is the same as having ADD, can't concentrate or focus, mind can wander etc. I for one have low T and ADD and need to be medicated for both, but another might have true depression but still have low T and anti- depressants alone won't fix the problem without both either. There are some that some people might pick up on physically by noticing loss in muscle mass or strength but someone who works a desk job and doesn't work out may not ever notice that because they don't have any to miss, or don't know because they aren't progressing in the gym etc. Or gaining fat easier than usual or it's getting a lot harder to lose it and your still to young for these things to be happening already. And even with getting bloodwork the "Range" the labs use of say 300-900, and the next lab may say 350-1200 and then add in the factor that 400 might be perfect for one but it takes 1200 for the next guy because of multiple factor, diet, lifestyle, other medications counteracting something or high/low SHBG. So it's really kind of a "process" to find what works for each individual and if it's even for that individual.

Originally posted by elking:I see a lot that fatigue, tiredness, aching etc is one of the main symptoms of low testosterone, but I was wondering if people are able to explain their symptoms more specifically?

The best way that I can describe mine are that it feels very similar to that all-over achey feeling you get when you have the flu... and that it gets worse, and feels even more flu-like, with physical exertion.

Anyone else feel like this and, if so, found any respite through TRT?

No real pain for me, but yes general tired feeling and lack of ambition and motivation. It affected my brain more than my body. I had a constant "numbness" and "fogginess" in my head to the point where it actually hurt inside my brain and there was a constant buzz. And then there was the ED which started way before the other symptoms.

One of the difficulties diagnosing our condition and gaining acceptance in the medical community is that the symptoms are so diverse and differ from guy to guy. WHt you describe is consistent with what others have described even though it's different than mine. It doesn't hurt to request that your T levels be checked.

Originally posted by elking:I see a lot that fatigue, tiredness, aching etc is one of the main symptoms of low testosterone, but I was wondering if people are able to explain their symptoms more specifically?

The best way that I can describe mine are that it feels very similar to that all-over achey feeling you get when you have the flu... and that it gets worse, and feels even more flu-like, with physical exertion.

Anyone else feel like this and, if so, found any respite through TRT?

Thats pretty much how I tell people I feel. I tell them its like having the flu without a hurting throat or fever and never getting over it. Then I have brain fog and a light head (dreamy state) as well. I have have all sorts of test and everything came back fine. I finally got a GP to check my levels and they were indeed low. However I am feeling worse now than before I started TRT but my levels are still really low. I am just hoping this is what the problem is because I feel awful.

OK I am not trying to overload you guys with questions but I am trying to get to the root of my problem.

So I called good ol mom and she had a few glass thermometers and I went and got one. I took my temp yesterday 12/16/12 but I was having trouble reading it as its been a while since I used one. Anyway I ended up moving around a bit shook it down and took it again and it was 97.8. So I take it again this morning while laying still in bed only to get up and walk to a light and it was 94.6. Would moving around the first day have caused this much of a difference or will I see this much from day to day? I know I need a weeks worth but I wanna make sure I am read it right.

i also wanted to say that the PT-141...wow. that stuff is the real deal. it was actually the Melanotan II that i got (tan plus wood = score). that stuff is amazing! ive taken viagra, cialis, herbal stuff. nothing that ive found compares to this stuff. im not a math guy but i reconstituted the 10mg vial with 2ml of bac water and so far ive done 3 subq injections of 10 units. its a completely different feeling than using the regular ED meds. and the erections come out of nowhere. but they are so strong! and one shot seems to last me about 2 days or so. im really glad i took the chance on it. im ordering more today.

RadRon I agree, Free T is the key and not a lot of docs focus on this. Im the opposite of Y55 and have low SHBG. As a result, my TT can be in the 600 range with my Free T high. We are all different. I am lowering my Vit D dosage to 5k per day from 10k (Vit D can lower your SHBG). I dont want high SHBG but a little higher than 17 wouldnt be bad.

Devilhorse: I echo Y55 because most all docs will simply look at your labs, especially your TSH. Despite having so many hypothyroid symptoms, low basal temps and a family history, my endo looked at my labs and declared my thyroid fine. Get Drs. Starr and Barnes books I bought them used off Amazon for very cheap. MAybe your local library will have them? Barnes ia a pioneer in thyroid treatment and goes by basal temps. Those books have opened my eyes so much. Thyroid hormones effect every cell in the body. If they are not optimized it is likely you will feel it.

As for the therm, those readings are vastly different. You are not suppose to move at all before taking your temp. Shake the therm down the night before and put it by your bed so all you have to do is reach to get it. Im not sure how old those therms are, but you may want to consider buying a new one. They are under $10 and can be found at most any pharmacy. If your reading is truly in the 94s, per drs starr and barnes there is a strong indication of underactive thyroid. Normal temps are 97.8 -98.2

mcrockell: So your pt-141 dose was .05mg? I think if you dilute with 1ml and did 10 units that would be 1mg, but since you diluted with 2ml it would be half, or .05mg? Im bad at math and trying to figure out the dose you took. Although it sounds like you did Melatonin II and not pt-141.

Originally posted by Devilhorse8:OK I am not trying to overload you guys with questions but I am trying to get to the root of my problem.

So I called good ol mom and she had a few glass thermometers and I went and got one. I took my temp yesterday 12/16/12 but I was having trouble reading it as its been a while since I used one. Anyway I ended up moving around a bit shook it down and took it again and it was 97.8. So I take it again this morning while laying still in bed only to get up and walk to a light and it was 94.6. Would moving around the first day have caused this much of a difference or will I see this much from day to day? I know I need a weeks worth but I wanna make sure I am read it right.

I honestly don't know but it's interesting to read your experience. It's motivating me enough to go out and buy a thermometer today and start recording. My gut says that you should not get out of bed at all. Have a light next to the bed so you don't have to get up, and be as consistent as possible but don't get up. THen average the week's worth of data to get your basal temperature.

i also wanted to say that the PT-141...wow. that stuff is the real deal. it was actually the Melanotan II that i got (tan plus wood = score). that stuff is amazing! ive taken viagra, cialis, herbal stuff. nothing that ive found compares to this stuff. im not a math guy but i reconstituted the 10mg vial with 2ml of bac water and so far ive done 3 subq injections of 10 units. its a completely different feeling than using the regular ED meds. and the erections come out of nowhere. but they are so strong! and one shot seems to last me about 2 days or so. im really glad i took the chance on it. im ordering more today.

MC

That's pretty close to my experience too. Be care in combining it with ED meds as the erection can become uncomfortably strong and as the penis becomes more erect it becomes less sensitive. There have been a few times where I can have sex for a very long time but have difficulty achieving orgasm. It's a fine balance that I'm still learning to achieve but I never go over 0.5 mg of PT-141 and it does seem to last about 2 days (much weaker on the second day). I've never tried Melanotan II and don't think I'll switch.

I've read in posts that you shouldn't use it constantly, only once or twice per week. I think the theory is that it stimulates the mealocortin receptors in the brain and that in turn increases the turnover of dopamine and epinephrin which in turn mack erections happen more easily; and sometime in inappropriate situations in my experience. So a cautious approach is probably best. But yes, I like the stuff too!

Re basal temp I put the therm on top of my clock radio, feel for it first thing when I wake up and stick it under my arm while in bed and remove it 10 min later and then turn the light on and read it. Y55 is right, you should minimize all movement. Dr. Starr even recommends no working out, eating etc for 12 hours before taking the temp, but I dont do that.

Good Day, All! Back with a report from my Dr visit yesterday. Only ended up getting about 1/2 of the labs I had originally wanted (partially $ driven). I did convince him to run the Total T, Free T, and Estradiol(men). Requested D3 (he stated that if I was taking the recommended supp, I should be fine, but more importantly he said that was a higher cost lab, so I agreed to skip that 1. I requested DHEA/Pregnenolone, but since off the top of my head I couldn't explain why I felt I needed these, and he didn't know either, so they didn't get run. I suppose if it should be needed, I could get it run at privatelabs.md. At least I talked him into free T and the E. He originally did not want to run those with his reasons being a)free T he explained away with some reading from my original CBC stating that since that # was in range, the free T number would be as well (sorry I can't recall what he referenced), but agreed to run it for me. On the E, ha..he said simply diet and exercise should keep that in check. really? with 400mg every 2 weeks of T? anyways, he agreed to run that as well. I should have labs back by Friday or Monday and will report numbers when I have them. When asked how often he would like to run these labs, he said we will know more with the lab results from this time, but if we are moving in right direction, most likely every 3-6 months.

So, got my Rx for Test,and the nurse supervised/instructed me on my 1st self injection in the quad. A little nervous, but no hitches. yay!Oh, I did say my Dr was willing to work with me and that is good, but he is still very much archaic in his general treatment plan. I had been doing every 2 weeks(found out this was because I was so low) but his normal protocol is every 3 weeks! So that is what Rx was for 400/mg every 3 weeks. Needless to say, I didn't mention breaking that up more frequently. So, because I was supervised yesterday, I injected 400mg. When will I inject with the lower dose? Wait 2 weeks for my normal cycle then drop down, or wait a week?I would like to experiment with e7d or e5d to start, and around 100mg a week. I am extremely happy to report for this broke guy, I got the 2000mg/10ml bottle at Kroger for $65!! That should be 5 months by my calculations of 100mg a week! Much better than around $200/mo Dr injections.[/QUOTE]

Hey guys, back with the results from my labs last week, and I am kinda freaking out a bit as my numbers seem crazy(to me, anyway) compared to my TRT which started 10/02/12. My only baseline number at that time was Total T at 105.Here are the latest lab results delivered today:Test, Free/Total with SHBG-Total T- 865 (292-867)SHBG- 44 (16-94)Calc Free T- 16.9 (4.8-25.0)Estradiol- 55 (<=63)So, where do you think that leaves me? I asked the Clinic nurse and she said Dr. wants you to continue shots every 3 weeks(lol..not) and that I was looking great at the top end of the scale of total T. I can't believe that the Total T # would possible climb that high in such a short time, she said going with 400mg every 2 weeks will crank that number up. But I have only been doing the shots for 2 1/2 months? At any rate I mentioned to her, that if those numbers were right I should be feeling awesome, and I'm not. And that I may like to consider looking at the Thyroid again, since I only had the basic TSH checked. She replied, The T3 and T4?I confirmed. So should I go to privatelab for the comprehensive tests of $200 or see if I can get the Dr talked into it, she said less than $100? I wish they would have ran that when I requested a FULL thyroid panel at my original visit in August, ergh!

Wolverine- I know it is too soon to report, but 1st day basal temp came in at 96.6. I will continue for a week to get an average. Sorry, I haven't been able to get the books by Drs Barne and Starr yet, but do you think it makes any difference that I woke up a little chilly this morning? As always thanks all for the inputs.

Hopeful - Just by looking that the range they gave you, it looks like they ran the female estrogen test. This is a common mistake for GPs and docs that just aren't in the know. Less than 63 pg/mL as a desirable range???? You should begin to worry if you go too much over 35 for an extended period of time, so why an optimal range of <63? For women, maybe, but not for guys. THey need to specifically request the male panel which is sometimes called the "sensitive" or "ultrasensitive" panel.

Hopeful46: 96.6 is indicative of underactive thyroid per Drs. Starr and Barnes. You should be at 97.8-98.2 per Drs Barnes and Starr. That was my temp consistently over 1 week of measuring before starting Armour. Now I am at 97.2 consistently and will likely increase my dose.

Originally posted by elking:Guys, where did you get hold of this MT-141 stuff from? I gather it's still going through testing?

I'd be interested to hear some more details about your experiences with it...

It's a research drug, yes. It is currently making its way slowly through FDA. Had some issues in early trials because they used a nasal delivery system and that had blood pressure side effects. Most people don't have that with injections. SOme report nausea. I have absolutely no side effects that I can discern other than unusually intense morning erections that make controlled urination very difficult (really), but I have read posts in another forum from one guy that was very nauseated. It seems to differ a lot from person to person. Women seem to be more sensitive than guys (yes it works for women too but in other ways).

As for obtaining it, it's one of those chemicals that are legal to sell and possess for "research purposes" but illegal to sell and use without a prescription. But since it's not a marketed drug, it's difficult to find a legal source.

My understanding is that it can be obtained legally through some compound pharmacies but you need a doc willing to write a script and that just won't happen with mainstream docs for a drug that's not yet approved. My AA doc does prescribe it but I don't go through him. He has found it to be extremely useful in treating guys that have been left permanently impotent as a result of finasteride (brand names Proscar and Propecia by Merck) or other synthetic 5-alpha reductase inhibitors.

So, you are left with purchasing it on your own for "research" purposes. I have a dog that really needs the stuff in his old age.... I don't like to discuss sources of research chemicals in an open forum. Many forums will ban you if you do that. I don't know the rules of this forum but I think it's a good idea to not do it anyway. My suggestion is to simply do an internet search on the term PT-141 and/or Bremelanotide) and you'll find no shortage of sources. PM me if you have problems.

Y55, I just spoke with the lab that conducted the Estradiol testing, and they state that the range is correct: it was gender and age specific. So more questions than answers. Not sure where that leaves me, especially with all the other numbers being at an optimal range?

Wolverine,Thanks, glad to hear that you are getting to where you need to be on Armour. Couple of questions- How hard is it to get Armour over other medications(i.e. did they insist you take the T4 replacement, or other pharmaceuticals 1st?) Also, with my Test not looking so much like the culprit, I think I am leaning towards diagnosing my Thyroid. What was your plan towards this, did you have the full panel run after your basal temps came in low? My plan is to check basal temps for a week and then take the full panel to check T3, T4, rT3, and then if that comes back numbers off, I should be able to (hopefully) talk my Dr into prescribing Armour.BTW, my basal this morning was 96.4..i know, i know, only 2 days so far, but looks like a picture is starting to form.Thanks all.

H46: Your right a picture is starting to form. I had slews of labs done because I was always tried, run down, cold extremties, dry skin, bad muscle fatigue. My thyroid labs have always been in range, but my FT3 and FT4 were always lower half of the range. My TSH was always good. I had low iron due to a bleeding polyp, had a varicocele which led to low T, had that repaired, had a bad gallbladder removed. I started taking lots of iron for the loss of iron and got on TRT. Still had symptoms. I think my gp was thinking we have tried most everything else why not (in regards to trying Armour). I assured my gp that i would be detailed in tracking my temps and would note any hyperthyroid symptoms, but my main measure would be basal temps. Problem is you may be in lab range and your doc will look at the labs and say your fine (like TT in the 300 range). You have to convince your doc to treat based on symptoms and not labs, and to not be afraid to up the thyroid dosage slowly until you basal temp reaches the 98.0 area or you have hyper symtoms. I have found that since taking the iron my RT3 has come down nicely into range.