vinasp wrote: Do you mean that sambodhi is the action or events that occur when one firstunderstands something. And it cannot mean 'one who has understood'?

Yes, "sambodhi" is 'comprehension' as an event. 'One who has comprehended (on his own)' would be called "Buddha" (reflexive voice past participle from the same verb 'bujjhati').

Is it wrong to say that 'sambodhi' is something that an Arahant has, at any timeafter the time when he first understood?

Arahant has it in the sense that he comprehends experientially the Four Actualities for the Noble Ones.

" Between the night in which the Tathagata comprehends [abhisambujjhati] the unequalled Perfect Comprehension (samma-sambodhi), Cunda, and the night in which he attains the Nibbana-element without remainder, whatever he proclaims, says or explains is so and not otherwise.'"

It seems to me, to be two descriptions of the same event, on the same night. So thetime between these 'two' events, is no time at all.

The attainment of Nibbana without remainder happened many years later, it is described in Mahaparinibbana sutta.

[Where is the 'parinibbāyati' in the English translation?]

It's hard to translate this in English. See Ven. Thanissaro's article "A Verb for Nirvana":

"Between the night in which the Tathagata comprehends [abhisambujjhati] the unequalled Perfect Comprehension (samma-sambodhi), Cunda, and the night in which he attains the Nibbana-element without remainder, and is completely extinguished, whatever he proclaims, says or explains is so and not otherwise.'"

cittaanurakkho wrote:It seems like this practicioner never went thorugh Jhana http://bps.lk/olib/bp/bp502s.pdfat all during his practice and yet achieved liberation at death. His perception is so tune to the the impermanence it becomes embedded into his him that at the time of death all he sees is impermanence and liberated thus, no Jhana needed. Is it right?

This sutta has a form of an oral table. Buddha's disciple practiced a wide scope of things to arrive at Arahantship. This sutta describes a typology of essential wisdom development.

According to my experience and to the words of Buddha (Dutiya-Agarava sutta), it's impossible to get far in wisdom development without Jhana.Why?Because one has to develop these selective recognitions (sanna) toward all types of things in past, present and future, e.g:

"Here, Aggivessana, my disciples see whatever matter, in the past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, unexalted or exalted, far or near, all that matter is not mine. I'm not that, it is not my self. This is seen with right wisdom, as it really is. Whatever feelings, whatever perceptions, whatever determinations, whatever consciousness, in the past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, un -exalted or exalted, far or near, all consciousness is not mine. I'm not that, it is not my self. This is seen with right wisdom as it really is."

Overall, how do you see this selective perception practice fit in with satipathana? I can see the asubha practice, etc...but I don't see how one practice perception of cessation.

A shortened version of "seven selective recognition" is given in the fourth tetrad of Anapanasati sutta, i.e. in the fourth way of establishing remembrance (satipatthana).

The earliest and most reliable description of "selective recognition of cessation" is given in the Anapanasati chapter of Patisambhidamagga:

(xv)

540. How is it that (29) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating cessation'; (30) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating cessation'?

[Analysis of the Object of Contemplation]

541. Seeing danger in materiality, he has zeal for the cessation of materiality, he is resolute in faith and his cognizance is well steadied thereon; he trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating the cessation of materiality', he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating the cessation of materiality'. Seeing danger in feeling, ... [and so on with other aggregates, etc.]

Perhaps this is going off topic, but Bhikkhu Bodhi's analysis in the Introduction to his SN translation assigns a different meaning to parinibbana that what seems to be used here, and offers some other useful perspectives.

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:NIBBĀNA, PARINIBBĀNA

As is well known, nibbāna literally means the extinction of a fire. In popular works on Buddhism, nibbāna plain and simple is often taken to signify Nibbāna as experienced in life, parinibbāna Nibbāna attained at death. This is a misinterpretation. Long ago E.J. Thomas pointed out (possibly on the basis of a suggestion by E. Kuhn) that the prefix pari- converts a verb from the expression of a state into the expression of the achievement of an action, so that the corresponding noun nibbāna becomes the state of release, parinibbāna the attaining of that state. [History of Buddhist Thought, p. 121, n. 4.] The distinction does not really work very well for the verb, as we find both parinibbāyati and nibbāyati used to designate the act of attaining release, but it appears to be fairly tenable in regard to the nouns. (In verse, however, we do sometimes find nibbāna used to denote the event, for example in the line pajjotass’ eva nibbānaṃ at v. 612c.) Words related to both nibbāna and parinibbāna designate both the attaining of release during life through the experience of full enlightenment, and the attaining of final release from conditioned existence through the breakup of the physical body of death. Thus, for instance, the verb parinibbāyati is commonly used to describe how a bhikkhu achieves release while alive (e.g., at II 82,20; III 54,3; IV 23,8–9, etc.) and also to indicate the passing away of the Buddha or an arahant (e.g., at I 158,23; V 161,25).

The past participle forms, nibbuta and parinibbuta, are from a different verbal root than the nouns nibbāna and parinibbāna. The former is from nir + vṛ, the latter from nir + vā. The noun appropriate to the participles is nibbuti, which occasionally occurs in the texts as a synonym for nibbāna but with a function that is more evocative (of tranquillity, complete rest, utter peace) than systematic. (It seems no prefixed noun parinibbuti is attested to in Pāli.) At an early time the two verb forms were conflated, so that the participle parinibbuta became the standard adjective used to denote one who has undergone parinibbāna. Like the verb, the participle is used in apposition to both the living Buddha or arahant (I 1,21, 187,8) and the deceased one (I 122,13, 158,24). Possibly, however, parinibbuta is used in relation to the living arahant only in verse, while in prose its technical use is confined to one who has expired. In sutta usage, even when the noun parinibbāna denotes the passing away of an arahant (particularly of the Buddha), it does not mean “Nibbāna after death.” It is, rather, the event of passing away undergone by one who has already attained Nibbāna during life.

The suttas distinguish between two elements of Nibbāna: the Nibbāna element with residue (sa-upādisesa-nibbānadhātu) and the Nibbāna element without residue (anupādisesanibbānadhātu )—the residue (upādisesa) being the compound of the five aggregates produced by prior craving and kamma (It 38–39). The former is the extinction of lust, hatred, and delusion attained by the arahant while alive; the latter is the remainderless cessation of all conditioned existence that occurs with the arahant’s death. In the commentaries the two elements of Nibbāna are respectively called kilesaparinibbāna, the quenching of defilements at the attainment of arahantship, and khandhaparinibbāna , the quenching of the continuum of aggregates with the arahant’s demise. Though the commentaries treat the two Nibbāna elements and the two kinds of parinibbāna as interchangeable and synonymous, in sutta usage it may be preferable to see the two kinds of parinibbāna as the events which give access to the two corresponding Nibbāna elements. Parinibbāna, then, is the act of quenching; nibbāna, the state of quenchedness.

To explain the philology of a term is not to settle the question of its interpretation. What exactly is to be made of the various explanations of Nibbāna given in the Nikāyas has been a subject of debate since the early days of Buddhism, with the ground divided between those who regard it as the mere extinction of defilements and cessation of existence and those who understand it as a transcendental (lokuttara) ontological reality. In SN some suttas explain Nibbāna as the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion, which emphasizes the experiential psychological dimension; elsewhere it is called the unconditioned, which seems to place the stress on ontological transcendence. The Theravāda commentators regard Nibbāna as an unconditioned element. [This is clearly maintained in the debate on Nibbāna recorded at Vism 507–9 (Ppn 16:67–74). See too the long extract from the Paramatthamañjūsā, Dhammapāla’s commentary on Vism, translated by Ñāṇamoli at Ppn pp. 825–26, n. 18.] They hold that when Nibbāna is called the destruction of the defilements (of lust, hatred, and delusion, etc.) and the cessation of the five aggregates, this requires interpretation. Nibbāna itself, as an existent, is unborn, unmade, unbecome, unconditioned (see Ud 80–81). It is in dependence on this element (taṃ āgamma), by arriving at it, that there takes place the destruction of the defilements and release from conditioned existence. Nibbāna itself, however, is not reducible to these two events, which are, in their actual occurrence, conditioned events happening in time. On this interpretation, the two Nibbāna elements are seen as stages in the full actualization of the unconditioned Nibbāna, not simply as two discrete events.

In the present work I leave nibbāna untranslated, for the term is too rich in evocative meaning and too defiant of conceptual specification to be satisfactorily captured by any proposed English equivalent. I translate parinibbāna as “final Nibbāna,” since the noun form usually means the passing away of an arahant (or the Buddha), final release from conditioned existence; sometimes, however, its meaning is ambiguous, as in the statement “the Dhamma [is] taught by the Blessed One for the sake of final Nibbāna without clinging (anupādāparinibbānatthaṃ)” (IV 48,78), which can mean either Nibbāna during life or the full cessation of existence.

The verb parinibbāyati perhaps could have been incorporated into English with “nibbanize,” which would be truest to the Pāli, but this would be too much at variance with current conventions. Thus when the verb refers to the demise of the Buddha or an arahant, I render it “attains final Nibbāna,” but when it designates the extinguishing of defilements by one who attains enlightenment, I render it simply “attains Nibbāna.” We also find a personal noun form, parinibbāyī, which I render “an attainer of Nibbāna,” as it can be construed in either sense. In prose the past participle parinibbuta, used as a doctrinal term, always occurs with reference to a deceased arahant and so it is translated “has attained final Nibbāna.” In verse, it can take on either meaning; when it describes a living arahant (or the Buddha) I translate it more freely as “fully quenched.” The unprefixed form nibbuta does not always carry the same technical implications as parinibbuta, but can mean simply “peaceful, satisfied, at ease,” without necessarily establishing that the one so described has attained Nibbāna. [For a play on the two senses of nibbuta, see the Bodhisatta’s reflections before his great renunciation at Ja I 60–61.] At I 24,11 and II 279,8 it has this implication; at I 236,21 it seems to mean simply peaceful; at III 43, in the compound tadaṅganibbuta, it definitely does not imply Nibbāna, for the point there is that the monk has only approximated to the real attainment of the goal. Cognates of parinibbāna appear in colloquial speech with a nondoctrinal sense; for example, both parinibbāyati and parinibbuta are used to describe the taming of a horse (at MN I 446,8–10). But even here they seem to be used with a “loaded meaning,” since the horse simile is introduced to draw a comparison with a monk who attains arahantship.

"Between the night in which the Tathagata comprehends [abhisambujjhati] the unequalled Perfect Comprehension (samma-sambodhi), Cunda, and the night in which he attains the Nibbana-element without remainder, and is completely extinguished, whatever he proclaims, says or explains is so and not otherwise.'"

By 'temporary' I meant that it does not last, but disappears. This made no sense to mebut it is what I thought you were saying, this was probably my mistake.I agree that sambodhi (awakening) is cognitive and is a one-time event.

This is my understanding of the four noble truths:

They are a complicated 'device' which probably does not survive the attempt to translatethem into English. They were understood in two different ways by puthujjana's and nobledisciples. The difference is in the time-scale. For the puthujjana: three lifetimes.For the noble disciple: three successive states of mind.The first four knowledges represent the attainment of right view, and entry into thenoble eightfold path.The next four knowledges are processes through which the progress in doing what needsto be done, is monitored, this is the noble eightfold path, and the process oftransformation.The last four knowledges represent the knowledge that the path has been completed,that what had to be done, has been done.

On the MN 19 passage:

"I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress..."

This is his seeing the noble eightfold path, his attaining of right view, his becominga noble one, a stream enterer.

"These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations."

This is the same thing but with the asava's instead of suffering. The unenlightenedmind is suffering. The asava's are the unenlightened mind. Both mean 'existing as a self'.

The release from the asava's is enlightenment, nibbana, the extinguishing of selfhood.

The Problem.

I think that every time that they describe the same thing from another point of view,you see extra stages. They use these multiple descriptions to make connections betweendifferent aspects of the teachings.The four noble truths are one description of the path. The elimination of the asava'sis another description of the path. Dependent Origination is another description of thepath. These are all describing the same thing from a different angle.

I doubt this, Yamaka in SN 22.85 goes from a puthujjana to a stream enterer and on toan arahant, in the space of about five minutes.

I think your interpretation is wrong, but I cannot see where you have gone astray.Perhaps something I have said in this post may help. If not, this thread is veryinteresting, and if it continues, then something might turn up.

I will explain my understanding of nibbana in another post, since this one is alreadyrather long!

"Again, consider one who likewise abides seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom; and for him the cankers’ ending and life’s ending are at the same time, not one before and one after; this, monks, is the second person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit."

How does one give gifts to a dead person?

Perhaps 'life's ending' should not be understood here in a literal way.

"Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound."

One can only accept this as true if one believes that Ven. Anuruddha really did possesspsychic powers, and correctly discerned the Buddha's states of mind.

My own opinion is that this cannot be true. Non-temporary liberation is continuous, itcannot become temporary liberation again. So all these states of mind are no longerpossible for an Arahant or a Tathagata.

What, then, can this passage mean? I think that it is intended to show the Buddha's search for enlightenment. The first series of nine states, up and back down, representtemporary liberations. The Buddha explored these and concluded that they were not whathe was looking for. Then he found the noble eightfold path, which is non-temporaryliberation. This is represented by the ascent through the four jhana's, ending withenlightenment.

daverupa wrote:Nirodha isn't a thing which is conditioned; it refers to the cessation of stress, as you've mentioned. So "cessation of stress", as an experience, is a conditioned one, requiring the Eightfold Path. So far so good.

I did not say that "Nirodha isn't a thing which is conditioned", please read carefully.

vinasp wrote: "Again, consider one who likewise abides seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom; and for him the cankers’ ending and life’s ending are at the same time, not one before and one after; this, monks, is the second person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit."

How does one give gifts to a dead person?

This one of the types of Noble Persons - one who will attain Nibbana without remainder at the end of life.Such person can be pretty much alive.

There are two kinds of suffering, physical and mental. The mental suffering does ceasewith awakening, but the arahant is still liable to physical suffering.

The Worldlings Understanding of the Four Truths.

In the context of the truths, suffering is the five clinging aggregates. Theseare understood in a literal way by worldlings, as the actual body and mind, for the duration of this life, so both physical and mental suffering are included.

The noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of mental suffering at awakening, andalso leads, many years later, to the cessation of physical suffering when the arahantpasses away.

For the worldling, this life and its suffering is the result of craving in the previouslife. And craving in this life will result in the next life and its suffering.

The suffering of this life, has its origin in the craving of ones last life.The craving in this life will result in suffering in ones next life.

So for a worldling, present suffering is not due to present craving, but due to pastcraving. And present craving does not result in present suffering, but future suffering.

Remember, tanha is the 'thirst' which leads to renewed existence. It is not any kind ofdesire for present things.

When the second truth says that craving is the origin of suffering, it does not meanthat present craving is the cause of present suffering, it means that present sufferingis caused by past craving, or that present craving will result in future suffering.

So, the worldlings understanding of the truths is just like his understanding ofdependent origination - the 'three lifetimes' model.

The second and third truths are just simplified versions of dependent origination.

There is another way to understand the four noble truths which is discovered by everynoble disciple.

We see that 'what needs to be done', in relation to the second truth, is that craving (the origin of suffering) must be abandoned.

We see that 'what needs to be done', in relation to the third truth, is that the cessation of craving must be achieved (in order for suffering to cease).

So, one would have to understand craving in order to bring about its cessation. One would need to know how craving arises and what arises from craving. It is not possible for just craving, on its own, to cease.

The stream enterer is said to have 'penetrated' the four truths, but he is also said to have understood Dependent Arising, and cessation.

In AN 3.61 there is a version of the four noble truths in which the second truth isgiven as the DO formula with 12 items arising. Then the third truth is given as the DOformula with 12 items ceasing. The first and the fourth truths are the same as in thenormal version.

Piyadassi Thera wrote:One may justifiably be inclined to pose the question: Why did the Buddha not set forth the doctrine of dependent origination in his first discourse, [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.harv.html] the sermon delivered to the five ascetics, his erstwhile companions, at Benares? The answer is this: the main points discussed in that all-important sermon are the Four Noble Truths: suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the way to the cessation of suffering, the Noble Eightfold Path. There is no statement in it about dependent origination; but one who understands the philosophical and doctrinal significance of dependent origination certainly understands that the twelvefold paticca-samuppada, dependent origination, both in its order of arising and ceasing (anuloma and patiloma), is included in the Four Noble Truths.

The paticca-samuppada in its order of arising manifests the process of becoming (bhava), in other words, the appearance of suffering (dukkha, the first truth); and how this process of becoming or suffering is conditioned (dukkha-samudaya, the second truth). In its order of ceasing the paticca-samuppada makes plain the cessation of this becoming, this suffering (dukkha-nirodha, the third truth), and how it ceases (dukkha-nirodha-gamini patipada, the fourth truth). The Buddha-word with regard to this fact appears in the Anguttara Nikaya thus:

“And what, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of suffering? Dependent on ignorance arise volitional formations; dependent on volitional formations, consciousness; dependent on consciousness, mentality-materiality (mental and physical combination); dependent on mentality-materiality, the sixfold base (the five physical sense organs and consciousness as the sixth); dependent on the sixfold base, contact; dependent on contact, feeling; dependent on feeling, craving; dependent on craving, clinging; dependent on clinging, the process of becoming (rebirth); dependent on the process of becoming, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come to pass. Thus does the whole mass of suffering arise. This, monks, is called the noble truth of the origination of suffering.

“And what, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering? Through the entire cessation of ignorance cease volitional formations; through the cessation of volitional formations, consciousness … (and so on) … the cessation of the whole mass of suffering. This, monks, is called the cessation of suffering.” http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It is now abundantly clear from the foregoing that the paticca-samuppada, with its twelve factors, is the teaching of the Buddha and not, as some are inclined to think, the work of some writers on the Dhamma of later times. It is unreasonable, even dangerous, to rush to conclusions without fully understanding the significance of the paticca-samuppada.