Monday, November 20, 2006

DaveScot has a thread on Uncommon Descent taking issue with Rich Hughes of AtBC. As neither can respond directly to the other, I am offering this neutral venue for them to post comments without fear of arbitrary moderation. Anyone else with a relevant comment is welcome to post, too.

I'd like to discuss why, on avearge, using G as a measure of intelligence, Fundies aren't as bright. Nature? (parental IQ is a large factor), Nurture? Homeschooling? Religion's anti-intellecualism..? Or is the the tail wagging the dog, do smart minds free themselves from theism? Is there a lurking variable?

I don't think Dave will show. He has long history of inability to simply communicate as an equal. His track record shows him basically either (a) sticking to forums where he dictates terms and can expel anyone who disagrees with him (UD), or (b) zinging in, doing nasty little drive by gotchas, and disappearing (PT, before they banned him). He's scared off by venues where he can't avoid having to defend his actions and statements, where he has no choice but to engage people who disagree with him.

DaveScot: "Even (especially!) Myers should know that meiosis is a two stage process wherein the first stage results in the production of two perfectly viable diploid cells. The second stage of meiosis then splits these two cells into four haploid gametes."

Allen MacNeill: "This is freshman biology, Dave. If one of my students had made a statement this egregiously wrong, I would have flunked him or her on the exam."

I think we can safely say that either Myers would flunk Allen MacNeill's class, or DaveScot would.

Rich, first of all, point me to the source of your assertion that fundies tend to be of lower intellect. Make sure the source explains very well what a "fundy" is and fully exposes their sampling method and testing method.

This isn't on my regular blog circuit so I can't promise when I'll get around to seeing any reply. I don't even read everything on UD but I usually read everything on the ATBC uncommonly dense thread sooner or later as it's manageable in length and I enjoy my goofy fang club. It's actually a blessing in disguise that Wesley won't let me comment there otherwise it would take up way more time than I care to spend on it. When I rant I prefer the much larger audience I get at UD. Anyhoo, once there's a reply here with the information I requested link back to it on ATBC and I'll be reminded to have a look.

By the way, whoever started the rumor that I'm over 60 years old is wrong. I'm 49. The "David Springer" article on that androbot page was transcribed by the recipient from an email I sent him and errors were introduced. At the end where it says Mike and I *were* just over 40 should have read Mike and I *are* just over 40. We were just over 40 when I emailed the guy who owns smallrobot.com not over 40 in 1982 when we were working on the androman project. I was only 26 then.

I'm not aware that Rich is banned at Uncommon Descent. It's for sure I can't respond on ATBC but AFAIK Rich is free to respond at UD. I didn't see him even try to respond there and as long as he was civil and on-topic I sure wouldn't disapprove any response he made.

I don't have any vested interest in Rich not being right about fundies being of lower intellect. If you noticed I didn't try to argue Rich was wrong in that in the blog article. I merely made him into someone that many people would revile just like the author of "The Bell Curve" is reviled by many. It's not that either are wrong it's that it's not a nice thing to point out. Of course anyone who gets pleasure out of using the term "tard" has already demonstrated a propensity for gratuitous cruelty. I loathe people who isolate and pick on the weakest among us.

Dave. First, good for you for showing up. We've had exchanges before that have ranged from friendly to not. I'd prefer freindly, but it may be hard. You seem to flirt with 'friendly' with Allen MacNeal and then all bets are off again. I am banned on UD, and would not post there if that was removed because of the moderation, censorship and revisionism. It looks like your comment was truncated, so I'll do this in chunks.

With regard to my use of Tard it’s our pet name for you at Uncommon Descent. It is a shorter form of ‘retard’. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retard let me know if you think you DON’T qualify for 4b. I enjoyed the part of your post where you rattle your saber and call me a racist, when I think you meant bigot. My reply to that is in AtBC already. Dave, my opinion of you is based on your actions. If you start using your gifts and a little humility, the moniker can change. I can’t speak to others though. Truth be told, they may prefer you this was for comedic value. You’re lucky I’m not an Arab =0)

Now, shall we frame the debate? It would seem from your posts that we are perhaps not in factual disagreement, but you think that I am using IQ as a measure of the man? If I am misrepresenting your views at any time, please correct me. I only seek clarity. Let me say that IQ is only one part of a person and in no way defines their worth as a person, merely there capabilities in some aspects. In many ways I see it as a burden, I read ‘flowers for Algernon’ as a child and many times as an adult and I believe that with ability comes responsibility. If you have a high IQ, don’t brag about it; use it for the betterment of the world. I will move forward under the assumption that higher IQs are preferable for the betterment of society. Obvious counterpoints are the ‘brave new world’ too many alpha’s argument and ‘ignorance is bliss’, which a got a sense of from your post on UD.

these show theism positively correlating with Tard. No Dave, you're not the lurking variable.

next:

fun·da·men·tal·ism (fnd-mntl-zm) Pronunciation Key n. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

would you say they these folks are the extreme of the theistic spectrum?

Unfortunately Rich, all the studies at your links appear to have sample bias, or at least the substantial possibility thereof. They're taken from groups of college students, scientists, high IQ societies, and the like. It may be that these groups simply attract more bright irreligious people than bright religious people. The most random sampling I could find (and it is still unsatisfactory) was the National Merit Scholar survey, Warren and Heist, 1960, and in that survey no significant correlation of religiosity to intelligence was found. This is still a biased sample in that not all students try out for NMS.

I'm a bit of a survey junkie and really insist that a proper survey is used and the polling methodology is exposed in the survey. The sample group needs to be constructed in a disciplined, scientific manner to represent the population in general.

For instance, if I wanted a survey biased the other way, I'd take my sample from federal prison inmates where I presume there's a preponderance of unintelligent non-fundies.

Atheists make up a disproptionately small amount of the prison poplulation, but from a causal standpoint you might argue they find jebus there.

If devout theists aren't making it into higher education and its not an IQ barrier, what is it? Is learning incongruent with their flat earth view? Proxy for low IQ, says I, If theism really is anti-itellectualism.

Your critique of "It may be that these groups simply attract more bright irreligious people than bright religious people." seems to hold little water. enough studies are done, and enough institutions are touched. Plus, there are explicitly theistic places of learning.

"Let me suggest that it is an empirical question whether college students who support ID are smarter, dumber, or comparable to college students who support Larry’s brand of evolution — IQ tests, SAT and ACT tests, longitudinal studies of academic and life success, etc. can all be carried out on the two groups. I would venture that students who are ID supporters come out ahead (in part because they need to display the independence of spirit and intellect needed to face down bullies like Moran)"

Leaving aside the problem of whether IQ tests properly measure "smarter, dumber", does DaveScot now assert that there is no significant difference, or that the entire project is fraught with insurmountable difficulties due to sampling biases? Can he point to studies that have been done that do not have these difficulties?

If you read the conclusions section of link 2 find that over 50% of the college educated people in the survey said religion was important in their lives. I'd say on the face of it that the sample group is not that bad. In fact, the 50% figure held pretty steady across most demographics.

Hi folks, (special Hellooo to Janiebelle), did I miss anything while under a blogging suspension imposed by my wife? Aside to Dave, "grandad" is fairly minor abuse (and didn't I notice you mention your daughter was pregnant a while back) and wasn't your use if "Dick..." an attempt to needle,if you will excuse the tu quoque , The moderation here is anything goes that would not offend my mother, who is fairly broad-minded for an eighty-six year-old. Anyway, you don't need me to stick up for you, I'm sure.

"His track record shows him basically either (a) sticking to forums where he dictates terms and can expel anyone who disagrees with him (UD), or (b) zinging in, doing nasty little drive by gotchas, and disappearing (PT, before they banned him)."

I am so utterly neglected...

You forgot (c) sticking to forums where he is overly protected by little girls.

I am so very glad you're back, Alan.

Kisses to each and every one of you guys (yes, including Davey!), and of course to Mrs. Fox.

I wonder if the Marines are ashamed of Le Tard...cowardice, never venturing into the danger zone, inability to find any modicum of stick-to-itiveness in the face an enemy on his last legs (that's ToE, Dave)?

You know that secret listserv you've been talking about on ATBC that Heddle got kicked off of? I'm on that list and write to it a couple times every day. You'd be amazed by all the scientists and engineers all over the world who are are on it. Of course if I told you any of those names, many you'd recognize, I'd have to kill you. I was added to it shortly after Heddle was removed. It really sucks that well respected working scientists have to go underground to talk about ID lest they be Sternberged for their heresies against evolutionary dogma.

Actually patent 5,936,608 is related to biology. I was inspired by how the visual processing system in higher animals prioritizes things in the data stream from the eyeballs so that the brain isn't overwhelmed by unimportant details. I used that schema to sort out the various windowed areas on a laptop display into a hierarchy of least to most important at any given moment. A twin heirarchy of brightness level is assigned to those windows. On display devices where decreasing brightness is accompanied by decreasing power consumption the invention substantially increases the time the laptop can operate on battery power. The display screen is typically the single biggest power hog especially on flat panels with high contrast capability in a brightly lit ambient environment.

In addition to a few personal patents I was one of a dozen key engineers at Dell who reviewed all patent abstracts submitted from everywhere in the company. We met once a week with a few in-house patent attornies to review an average of ten submissions each week. The submitters were invited to explain and defend their abstracts. I reviewed about a thousand abstracts, approved of about one in three for filing with the USPTO and various foreign patent offices, and AFAIK all that I approved were subsequently granted a patent. Building up a patent portfolio was a very high priority within the company. Engineers of all sorts, programmers, and those involved in development of business methods across the company were expected to submit between one and four abstracts each year as part of their performance plan. In early/mid 1990's we were getting hammered in patent license fees from the big competitors who preceded us in the PC industry - Texas Instruments and IBM alone were stroking us to the tune of hundreds of millions each year. Eventually we built up a big enough portfolio of our own so that Mike Dell was able to negotiate broad cross-license agreements and get us out from under that financial burden. He marked the day he forged a cross-license agreement with IBM as the biggest single thing in the company's history that increased our bottom line.

It is only with great hesitance that I step forward on behalf of JanieBelle and Kate to let you know that in Alan's defense, they are indeed fictional.

Alan was quite quick to pick up on that little aspect of their characters, in fact most of the world excluding DaveScot, Bill Dumbski and Gil Dodgeball saw through them rather immediately.

If you would take just a moment to venture on over to Our Blog and in particular read All Good Things you will see the very moment when the girls came out of their closet, so to speak.

Additionally, although the girls have pretty much taken on lives of their own, and indeed have taken over the lion's share of time in the captain's seat of this body we three share, they do allow me some small amount of time at the keyboard still. If you take a moment to visit my own blog, you will note that it is entitled "Crowded Head, Cozy Bed" and subtitled "Three in one head makes four in one bed", which is a reference to the girls, my self, and my wife.

Finally, allow me to assure you that as the girls espouse no particular sexual preference, they would probably be inclined to be interested in you as they are in Alan. Any small bit of jealousy which might touch you is quite unnecessary. He has been a good friend to them both, but it is your mystery that intrigues them presently. Please do take time to read their fictional adventures. They will appreciate that as nothing else. And if those adventures motivate Alan to take a few extra moments in his grooming each day, perhaps they might appreciate a "Thank You" from you yourself. And we three promise not to tell if you spend a bit of time reading the more steamy romance type posts at our blog. It is as privileged as if you were in St. Paul's Cathedral's confessional.

Oh, and as for the rest of you, be kind to Dave. He's trying desperately to believe the crap he's spouting, but I know that Dave will eventually realize that ID is hopeless and Dumbski is a con-man.

To be honest, I thought he'd have already come to that conclusion, given that whole incident where he was demoted in favor of that air-head, MorphoDyke.

Davey, Billy has shown you an incredible amount of disrespect. He's chosen a complete idiot to plaster on his banner, totally spitting on your hard work and loyalty.

Wonder why that is? Because he knows I'm right. He knows you will eventually get past your stubbornness and wishful thinking, and broadcast the truth about ID. You can't be trusted, because he knows you have a brain, something MorphoDyke rather obviously lacks. He knows how dangerous you will be.

Reach down in there, find the integrity you've lost, and tell Billy D to piss off. Tell him "I Will Not Lie Below".

You know that secret listserv you've been talking about on ATBC that Heddle got kicked off of? I'm on that list and write to it a couple times every day. You'd be amazed by all the scientists and engineers all over the world who are are on it. Of course if I told you any of those names, many you'd recognize, I'd have to kill you. I was added to it shortly after Heddle was removed. It really sucks that well respected working scientists have to go underground to talk about ID lest they be Sternberged for their heresies against evolutionary dogma.

Yeah, Dave. SUUUUUURE..... I think we've heard that before.

"Oh yes, LOTS AND LOTS of REAL scientists with REAL DEGREES FROM COLLEGE and everything have told me IN SECRET that they're TOTALLY on board with Intelligent Design and think Dembski IS JUST BRILLIANT but they just KNOW that if they 'd be HORRIBLY PERSECUTED BY THOSE ATHEIST DARWINISTS if they went public. So TRUST ME, there's hundreds of them, but I CAN'T TELL YOU WHO THEY ARE, it's SECRET, you just have to BELIEVE ME when I tell you that it's full of REAL SCIENTISTS, REALLY!"

Yawn.

So, let me guess. A bunch of theologians and engineers along with some emeritus physics professors and a few property managers. (All of them with subscriptions to Scientific American.) That about it?

Anyway, enough of all that bullshit, Dave. Tell us something really interesting, like all the women who beg you to father their children.

There's an NAS member on the list who wrote to me saying he finds my writing insightful but no second rate Wildlife and Fisheries PhDs that I know of.

Speaking of Wesley, you know he and Nick Matzke are both falconers who get together a couple times a year to go camping with their birds, right? Or at least they tell their wives they're out playing with their birdies.

I agree with Janie, he'll eventually get over this brain-fart, and when he does it won't be pretty for Dembski, or MorphoDyke.

Dave,

Semper Fidelis was never meant to mean "Always Faithful, No Matter What". You have been duped, and Dembski is taking advantage of your very admirable loyalty. You are being used by a con man.

Only you can decide if you will be Always Faithful to a lie, or Always Faithful to the truth, to the children of this country whose education Dembski is trying to destroy in the name of book sales, and most of all to yourself and your own personal integrity.

But I submit that you already know the right choice.

It'll take big balls for you to make that choice. You've really dug yourself in deep. You've made an ass of yourself. You will have to publically admit that people who have ridden your ass and ridiculed your statements far and wide were right to do so. I don't envy you this.

But you know it's the right thing, the only honorable thing, for you to do.

In a way, you're kind of like Darth Vader. You've been seduced by power to the Dark Side, and find yourself in the position of being the right-hand man to the Chief Deceiver. You were once an honorable man. You can be again, but you mustn't wait until it's too late to undo the damage your Master has done.

Alan: I apologize over the offending comment of mine. While it perfectly captures what I think of Dave and what I think his contributions to science--and whatever ID is--are, there are better ways to state it.

Now, here's one of those ways.

I have a secret friend, whom only I and a select group of ultra-intelligent sciency types with real, actual, not-fake jobs in industries that are of both current and emerging importance, can speak to. You see, actual fake, not-educated, unreal sciency types--like biologists and physicists and chemists--are producing real notes and strong letters which condemn my secret friend for knowing things that some others would like to know but can't know because they are unknowable--until I, with my ultra-IQ let them in on these things. So, death to Darwinism--wait, I mean it's already dead...uh, wake for Darwinism! Homo. Notice that this must be true, because it is in italics!!!

Speaking of Wesley, you know he and Nick Matzke are both falconers who get together a couple times a year to go camping with their birds, right? Or at least they tell their wives they're out playing with their birdies.

There's a new movie coming out about it... Brokeback Falconers.

("Now drop and give me twenty, you homo!")

Dave, you made that exact joke several months ago. Work up some new material.

So I guess Darwinist persecution is why the kids on your list can't do research, either, eh?

I realize that Corporal Kate is not exactly one of my very few supporters but I congratulate her for her insightful analysis of Spravid Dinger's relationship with Dilliam Wembski and Uncommon Descent. Knowing Dinger as only I do however, I doubt Sergeant Dinger will follow Corporal Kate'sadvice. He is much too preoccupied with himself, his mastery of all matters large and small and his physical prowess, especially his magnetic capacity to make every woman he has ever met beg to have him sire their baby.

It is hard to believe isn't it?

Personally, I am delighted to see Reverend Wembski and Sergeant Dinger in such perfectly complementary roles. They deserve each other and I am confident they will soon become mere footnotes together if even that. They are both egomaniacal con artists.

What ever happened to Master Sergeant Spravid Dinger, presumably one of the protagonists in this idiotic thread? Has he finally done himself in or has The Most Reverend Dilliam Wembski instructed him to cool it again?

DAMN IT DAVE! Come back. Come back. Nothing to say? Oh, are you embarrassed to talk in public? It's alright, many (if not most) people are. You can get by it.

I'll offer my services for free. I teach a public speaking class--for adults and children (whichever level you feel you're on). In 10 short weeks you too will be able to face complete strangers and make lucid points without embarrassment.

Well come on Spravid Dinger. What is the matter? Won't The Most Reverend, His Eminence Dilliam Wembski unleash his pet Chihuahua so he can sally forth once more to flex his powerful muscles and denigrate anyone who would even dream of questioning the self annointed originator of the celebrated "Intelligent Design Movement?" Where is the Dinger of old, the nasty pontificator, the banningest tyrant in the history of the internet, the one who used to proudly explain his dastardly actions with

"The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" and "He is no longer with us."

Your silence speaks volumes as to your cowardice, your insecurity and your complete dependence on a man for whom you have no respect whatsoever. You deserve one another. janiebelle saw that a long time ago. You are a cosmic joke.

You know why Spravid Dinger won't show? Let me tell you why. It has finally penetrated his egocentric diseased brain that there is absolutely nothing he can ever do now to rescue his hideous image from oblivion. The only hope for him now is to hide himself from everyone with the hope that eventually they will forget what a low life pile of genetic garbage he really is. It is also possible that his Lord and master Reverend Dilliam Wembski has instructed him to keep his vile mouth shut as he damages his precious Uncommon Descent every time he opens it, especially when it is at blogs like this one, udreamofjanie and similar low life flame pits. He showed his real self at "brainstorms" when he signed off at me with gfy. That was beautiful as that sort of thing doesn't go over very well at a decent forum like "brainstorms." Most recently he is such a hypocrite that he now claims that means GOOD FOR YOU as he did when he congratulated Martin. Sure it does Sus. Everybody knows that. What a garbage-mouthed low life cowardly pile of crap you really are. This cowardly schmuck even sends emails to others claiming my language in private emails would "make a sailor blush". Right Sus? His language at dumps like udreamofjanie would really make a sailor blush just like the language of the girls that run that trash heap. Can you imagine that The Yellow Rose of Texas actually used as an excuse to ban me the second time that it was because I had "sent an abusive email"? The biggest foul-mouth in the internet was crushed because of "an abusive email." Poor dear. That was his excuse for then saying "Dr. Davison is no longer with us." My "abuse" was being angry because this low life had refused to present my comment which was totally innocuous but took a mild exception to what the great pontificator had claimed. That is all it takes at Uncommon Descent as most of the posters here already know.

Well Spravid Dinger I am right here waiting for a response from The Yellow Rose of Texas, the most cowardly, most vicious, most insecure, most venemous, most unprincipled pile of egomaniacal sociopathological garbage that ever stained the internet with his stinking tactics.

And I will bet the schmuck still won't respond. Cowardly bullies are like that don't you know. He is hoping everyone will forget all about Spravid Dinger if he just maintains a low profile long enough. Not a chance Sus, not a chance. I for one will never let that happen. Trust me.

For a purely open and engaging group of people like the IDiots--who are so all about dialogue and anti-censorship and spreading the truth--there sure is an absolutely surprising lack of detail and dialogue at this thread.

I, for one, am SHOCKED!!!

A few short weeks 'til our visit, Davey boy. Can you wait? I certainly can't.

Don't you call me an IDiot. I may be a Creationist of sorts but I am no Bible-Banging Baptist Bigot buster and don't you ever forget it. I'm a retired bench scientist not a flaming mystic like Reverend Dilliam Wembski and every one of the rest of the crowd that hangs out at Uncommon Descent and Discovery Institute. I am also not a flaming two-faced lying psycopathic nightmare like Spravid Dinger, the Yellow Rose of Texas. Maybe he's dead! He might as well be because he's finished, washed up and history.

You should probably tell him, and rather bluntly, over at UD, just to make sure he's aware.

I'd hate to have people calling you a hypocrite all over the world, and this would certainly make it very clear that he supports the science of your papers based on the science, not based on the idea that you're a useful tool to bring down the Darwimps.

One thing people can definitely not say about you, John, is that you are a hypocrite. You have always been rather (gratingly, sometimes) up front about what you think about things.

Then why am I banned at Panda's Pathetic Pollex (PPP)and The Slippery Floors Saloon? Could it be that Esley Welsberry is just as insecure as Dilliam Wembski? They both have their hired goons, Falan Ox and Spravid Dinger respectively. Both are afraid to even mention my name. I don't see much difference myself.

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself,"Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Those two lightweights are loaded with it as any objective observer of their forums can easily tell. God but it is so gloriously revealing.

The only thing that is missing from this thread is the star performer that Falan Ox prepared it for, Spravid Dinger, The Yellow Rose of Texas.

When Falan offered a thread for me I showed up didn't I?

Where is Sus springeriana, the hog from Texas? He is probably busy sending out emails secretly telling everyone how my email comments would "make a sailor blush," supremely confident that his shabby cowardly tactics would never get back to me. Well they have.

As for you, your infantile commments are standard fare for the gossip mongers from the Slippery Floors Saloon, the last bastion of Darwimpian mysticism.

God but it is gratifying to witness such degeneration first hand. Whatever you do Blipey, don't you dare stop.

Janiebelle, you illiterate,infantile polysexual pervert, go find someone else to vent your "prescribed" warped persona on. You bore me to tears. Also lose some weight. All that cellulite does not become you.

Why don't you copy and paste yourself till your nose bleeds all over yourself? Since, like everyone else here, you contribute nothing of value, why do you even bother with me?

Someone once compared forum communication with "road rage." You are the perfect example. God it is beautiful. Why don't you and Korporal Kate team up with Kristine of Slippery Floor fame to become the "Three Stooges" of the "feminine evolutionary movement." You have much to offer as any fool can see.

I would tell off "Billy D" over at Uncommon Descent but the Yellow Rose of Texas has banned me so I can't. Why don't you do it somehow. You are such a genius with computers, I am sure you can find a way.

"Since, like everyone else here, you contribute nothing of value, why do you even bother with me?

Someone once compared forum communication with "road rage." You are the perfect example. "

Oh that's too much, Johnboy. Y'know that pot-kettle thing? Yeah.

"Why don't you and Korporal Kate team up with Kristine of Slippery Floor fame to become the "Three Stooges" of the "feminine evolutionary movement.""

We're working on her, John. Us Evil Lesbo Atheist Conspiracy Church Burnin' Ebola Girls have to work on the Evil Straight Atheist Conspiracy Church Burnin' Ebola Girls under cover, though (if you'll pardon the pun). Kristine's door don't swing our way.... yet.

;)

"You have much to offer as any fool can see."

I guess you'd know then, right? Dream on.

"I would tell off "Billy D" over at Uncommon Descent but the Yellow Rose of Texas has banned me so I can't. Why don't you do it somehow. You are such a genius with computers, I am sure you can find a way."

Holy Shiitake Mushrooms, John! When are you going to figure out that it's not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you? UD was the only place left on the web that wouldn't laugh you all the way to the curb! You want your "heresies" heard or not?

Talk about self-destructive in the extreme.

Anyway, as far as sneaking onto UD, yeah, I could, but what have you done for me lately, Johnny?

Davey was kind to me for quite some time, while you were rude and obnoxious from the get-go. You've done yourself no favors by being such a rude bastard. I have no inclination to upset Dave on your behalf, and that's your fault.

I couldn't care less what happens to Uncommon Descent and I wouldn't go back there if you paid me. As for you, garbage mouth, I am worried sick about you. I haven't even begun to be rude. Go exercise with that big fat hard green pencil of yours.

I am through being Mr. Nice guy, Mr Caspar Milquetoast and Mr. Civilized. It doesn't do a thing for me. If my sources hadn't been such perfect gentlemen, morons like you would never have survived to pollute cyberspace with your meaningless, ignorant, sociopathic self indulgences. God but you are beautiful. When you look back on your lives what the hell have you ever accomplished? I'll tell you what -absolutely nothing. You enbarrass yourselves, one another and your families which is why you must use aliases.