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I think it's fair enough to point out that the thread is five years old and there's no real reason to resurrect it. I think continued interest in the modern state of the arts on this board is positive, but we don't need 15 different threads on it. When there's already an active BJJ thread up, why resurrect one 5 years old?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"

1: But for ***** sake, its a 5 year old thread. And it´s not contributing to anything new. We already have at least 2 or 3 thread dealing with training methods and I have a hard time seeing that this one will bring up anything new.
2: So I´m the passive aggressive one according to someone who posts just to point that out and also brings statements like "MMA is not BJJ" to the discussion. I usually enjoy your posts but this time I get a little "Don Quijote"-feeling from it.

Quote:

Joseph Connolly wrote:

Yes it is old, but people to this day believe this tripe.

And while Paw did respond well to the OP, your passive aggressiveness is exactly why people won't let this thread die. If you have something to say then say it and back it up. Too often the sport vs street debate is brought up, and almost invariably the 'street' people run from a real challenge. This is even in cases of friendly sparring or randoori.

Roman just came and said what he thought and it is about time. And Dan's post is something that people need to better understand. BJJ is just part of an overal fighting strategy.

MMA IS NOT BJJ.

People who train to fight, train not only BJJ but also in striking and clinching ranges. In addition fewer and fewer fighters are training formal BJJ. There is also wrestling, judo, sombo, etc.

No one here forces you to read these threads. Nobody was being insulting or rude.

...
What's truly sad is that the ratio of views/posts in this thread outstrip the average substantially, showing that a morbid fascination with this sort of topic persists.

Yeah, it's a lot like looking at a car accident...can't help it.

Quote:

Joseph Connolly wrote:

Yes it is old, but people to this day believe this tripe...

Why, yes they do.

Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:

I think it's fair enough to point out that the thread is five years old and there's no real reason to resurrect it. I think continued interest in the modern state of the arts on this board is positive, but we don't need 15 different threads on it. When there's already an active BJJ thread up, why resurrect one 5 years old?

Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote:

1: But for ***** sake, its a 5 year old thread. And it´s not contributing to anything new. We already have at least 2 or 3 thread dealing with training methods and I have a hard time seeing that this one will bring up anything new...

Indeed. There are a few currently-running threads that have sprawled from this genus & species of discussion. I sure wish intrepid posters would first use the "search" function before posting.

Its one of the favorite topic in our DOJO. What can an AIKIDOKA do with a BRAZILIAN JUJITSU practioner?

My opinion (READ: OPINION) Technique wise Aikido is really rich compared to the B Jujitsu. It will be hard for a B Jujitsu to tackle down a well versed AIKIDOKA.

I have tried to spar with a B. Jujitsu practioner and has indeed proven this. He tried many times to knock me down and he just could not get a hold on me. I simply blended with him and he always end up in the mat. He asked me numerous times did you trip me? I said no. On the ground with the B Jujitsu on top of me ( We started with me lying down) I was able to do both IKKYO and NIKKYO on one of the hands holding me down. Once I have done this I just rolled over still holding his hand. We ended up with me in the kneeling position while the guy is on the floor still PINNED.

With my back on the mat, I learned that an Aikidoka should be aware of the following things:

1. The punches - with your back on the mat it will be hard to parry it, one should be fast to apply the locks. faster than the punches. Try not to keep his head close to yours if you want to avoid the punches. See number 3
2. The leg locks - don't let them do this.
3. The hold that makes your head closer to his - I had a hard time applying the locks under this position. I pushed his head first then applied the lock.
4. If all things fail in real life don't forget to gouge the eyes and bite into their ears or any part of the body for the matter.

I was suprised of the result. I said a while ago about a WELL VERSED AIKIDOKA, I am far from that. Don't get me wrong about that statement,I only meant " If I can do it, a not so well versed Aikidoka what more can a well versed one do?"

On the other hand I think It will be B Jujitsu all the way if ever an Aikidoka is in on the mat on all fours with the B Jujitsu on his back. One has to avoid that from happening.

Then again the end result will still be on the practioner.

Iam interested in your comments and opinions or even experience.

This kind of a post reduces Aikiweb to the level of the most ignorant poster. The question is old, too very old. The premise is wrong, so very wrong, and the ignorance is great, so very great.

BJJ is good. Aikido is good. Fighting is no good. Excessive concern over self defense is obsessive. and style vs style is stupid, unrealistic and wrong in it's premise. These kinds of discussions are a waste of time.

Sorry to be so blunt. The unvarnished truth can be rough sometimes but it saves time.

Maybe it's worth pointing out they are both limited in scope. Nether offers a complete system for fighting. Train in both, love them both for what they are. Then, train to blow them both up.

At a certain point in time everyone needs to -not- fall in love with their art- forsaking all others. At a point your single goal should be to stand back, look at what you do and know, and all those around you, and make it your purpose in training to learn every, single, weakness, in every single teacher you know. Look at them as so much meat. Don't buy anything they tell you. Be predatory in mind and action. It may help to see things more even handedly.

BJJ, Aikido, Daito ryu, Wrestling, are all limited venue grappling. While all may be wonderful and a blast to do-many could be in for an awakening. When you meet someone who can use elbows, knees, head butts and strikes and can deliver them with skill and power, and who UNDERSTANDS and is versed in what you are going to be trying to do can be rather interesting. When they can prevent you from using your R'epertoire while they deliver theirs can quite the eye opener. There's nothing like having your ribs or nose broken while you are "trying" for a set up tp some lock, throw or choke, to make you wake up and smell the coffee.
Everyone should make note of the fact that an American wrestler beat Royce.....with? The ground and pound. And Greco Roman wrestling with knees and strikes has been the reigning king in several weight classes., and dirty boxing beat -them- both at times.
When style limitations go out the window -styles no longer win-people do.
So, its pointless to keep thinking of what ART can beat what ART. Its stupid. No art beats an art. People who are well versed in different venues and use their brains, and train in full resistance win. Not some art.
See the arts, and more importantly these so-called artists and teachers for who and what they are. Keep trying a bunch of things, even if you fell in love with one art or another and doggedly work at making a better...you.

Maybe it's worth pointing out they are both limited in scope. Nether offers a complete system for fighting. Train in both, love them both for what they are. Then, train to blow them both up.

At a certain point in time everyone needs to -not- fall in love with their art- forsaking all others. At a point your single goal should be to stand back, look at what you do and know, and all those around you, and make it your purpose in training to learn every, single, weakness, in every single teacher you know. Look at them as so much meat. Don't buy anything they tell you. Be predatory in mind and action. It may help to see things more even handedly.

BJJ, Aikido, Daito ryu, Wrestling, are all limited venue grappling. While all may be wonderful and a blast to do-many could be in for an awakening. When you meet someone who can use elbows, knees, head butts and strikes and can deliver them with skill and power, and who UNDERSTANDS and is versed in what you are going to be trying to do can be rather interesting. When they can prevent you from using your R'epertoire while they deliver theirs can quite the eye opener. There's nothing like having your ribs or nose broken while you are "trying" for a set up tp some lock, throw or choke, to make you wake up and smell the coffee.
Everyone should make note of the fact that an American wrestler beat Royce.....with? The ground and pound. And Greco Roman wrestling with knees and strikes has been the reigning king in several weight classes., and dirty boxing beat -them- both at times.
When style limitations go out the window -styles no longer win-people do.
So, its pointless to keep thinking of what ART can beat what ART. Its stupid. No art beats an art. People who are well versed in different venues and use their brains, and train in full resistance win. Not some art.
See the arts, and more importantly these so-called artists and teachers for who and what they are. Keep trying a bunch of things, even if you fell in love with one art or another and doggedly work at making a better...you.

The Best Post I have seen in years with regard to the " This VS That" Fallacy.

It was 1.0 VS 3.0.
Royce was unprepared for what and who he ws faciing.

Age can be a factor, but not always. Then of course we have Randi and Chuck; 45 and 38 respectively -which doesn't help explain away Royce not being better prepared when he fought at 40.
In any event pure jujutsu was always a dicey gambit-and it was originally made to work in connction with weapons. Stand alone grappling is as risky as Aikido or BJJ are- as stand alone arts- without striking and kicking.

He trains striking, wrestling, grappling. By the time he fought Matt he was an evolved, modern fighter. It's like people take a snapshot in their mind of UFC 1 Royce Gracie and freeze it in their head permanently. Royce simply lost to an exceptionally powerful guy who does BJJ just like any other fighter.

Most of the fans/fighters I know wouldn't agree, and I would certainly count myself among them.

With Royce, the question has always been who he's training with and how. My understanding is that he is not training with people who are at his level (or better) and as a result he's not improving or evolving as a fighter.

In contrast, Hughes was training with folks who were as good as he was, if not better, at Miletich's.

Everytime I hear or read about a discussion with regards to the effectivness of Aikido against other MA, I am so irritated to hear a defensive reasoning such as..... Aikido is not about fighting and so on and so forth or even injecting spiritual mysticism in Aikido just to cover up its unreliability in fighting situation. Why don't you be honest with yourself and accept the fact that when it comes to actual fighting or in the ring, Aikido is not that reliable, instead of trying to defend it by Philosophical reasoning.

Of course there is a brilliant side in Aikido but that is a different topic of discussion.

Everytime I hear or read about a discussion with regards to the effectivness of Aikido against other MA, I am so irritated to hear a defensive reasoning such as..... Aikido is not about fighting and so on and so forth or even injecting spiritual mysticism in Aikido just to cover up its unreliability in fighting situation. Why don't you be honest with yourself and accept the fact that when it comes to actual fighting or in the ring, Aikido is not that reliable, instead of trying to defend it by Philosophical reasoning.

Of course there is a brilliant side in Aikido but that is a different topic of discussion.

Talking from experience.

Leon

I couldn't agree with you more. Martial integrity is a huge huge issue in the Aikido world.

Everytime I hear or read about a discussion with regards to the effectivness of Aikido against other MA, I am so irritated to hear a defensive reasoning such as..... Aikido is not about fighting and so on and so forth or even injecting spiritual mysticism in Aikido just to cover up its unreliability in fighting situation. Why don't you be honest with yourself and accept the fact that when it comes to actual fighting or in the ring, Aikido is not that reliable, instead of trying to defend it by Philosophical reasoning.

Of course there is a brilliant side in Aikido but that is a different topic of discussion.

Talking from experience.

Leon

What experiance??? What style of Aikido??? What does fighting in the ring have to do with it's effectiveness against other Martial Arts???

What does fighting in the ring have to do with it's effectiveness against other Martial Arts???

William Hazen

It's a good place to start looking at the very least. Especially the early mma fights. They showed very well the strengths and weaknesses of many styles of fighting. And after all, fighting is a large part of the word martial.