Monday Morning Fika: Cara Bristol on Feminism and DD

Good morning and welcome to Fika! When Cara Bristol asked me about discussing feminism and DD for Fika, immediately my mind jumped to the kind of post *I* would like to write! I may be writing a follow-up post in the next few days, but this is about Cara. The original title of her new book was The Feminist and the Dom, and so today she is here to talk more about the feminism angle. Please join me in welcoming Cara! Ask her, if you dare, why she didn’t bring anything more than graham crackers. 🙂

My name is Cara, and I’m a feminist who writes erotic stories about men disciplining women.

Seriously, Ana asked me to talk about feminism and domestic discipline and how the two relate. To many people, they don’t. One cannot be a feminist and allow herself to be spanked. Or even be a feminist and enjoy reading spanking stories. Or can she?

First, let me share my feminist resume. In the past I have:

Been member of the National Organization for Women

Been long-term subscriber to Ms. Magazine

Completed a half dozen college level women’s study classes

Done public relations for my university’s feminist Women’s Center.

Written a weekly newspaper column about women’s rights.

No one would have guessed what I do now: Write erotic romances about male heads of households spanking women.

And on the surface, my domestic discipline erotic romances don’t appear to support the notion of equality that modern women want and enjoy.

But here’s the thing: feminism seeks to award women the full range of rights and privileges so they can be the navigators of their lives. Just because women can now be doctors and school principals doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be nurses and teachers. Just because feminists fought for women to have equal employment opportunity doesn’t mean that they should have to forgo staying home to raise their children if that’s what they want and can afford it. Just because a woman is equal under the law, doesn’t mean that as a wife she shouldn’t make compromises in her marriage. To merely exchange one set of prohibitions and restrictions for another is not liberation.

So, if a woman feels loved and secure when her husband heads their household and metes out discipline, why shouldn’t she choose that lifestyle? Paradoxically, as women achieve more equality in the workforce and society, domestic discipline may become even more attractive to some because it relieves them of responsibility and eliminates ambiguity (and perhaps strife) in a relationship. As feminism failed to predict, and women subsequently learned, being a Superwoman who does it all is mentally and physically taxing.

Feminism demands that that men and women be treated equally. Historically erroneous assumptions of women’s capabilities have been made arbitrarily on the basis of gender, and opportunities and rights denied.

But however equal in worth and value, men and women are different, biologically, mentally, socially. We think differently, we act differently. In general (of course, there are always exceptions), men are aggressive and competitive. Women are more passive, more social, more relationship-oriented.

A domestic discipline relationship is set up with traditional gender roles: the man leads, the woman follows. Spanking represents only part of a complex dynamic resting on cornerstone of responsibility and trust. Because of inherent differences in men and women, it’s not unlikely a couple would gravitate toward what feels comfortable and natural to them.

Relationships seek their own stasis based on the personalities and needs of the individuals involved. Among platonic, same sex friendships often one person leads while the other follows. In same sex partnerships the same is true, and feminism has long supported lesbian rights under the notion that one does not need a man to be happy and fulfilled. (You’d be hard pressed to find a lesbian who isn’t a feminist!). Would feminism object to one woman serving as head of household and the other woman being the helpmate partner? Probably not.

But getting back to M/F couples, even those spouses with the most egalitarian marriages still follow some traditional gender roles. Look at couples driving down the highway. Who’s usually behind the wheel? The man. Which gender usually stays home with a sick child? The woman. Who is considered the primary wage earner? The husband. What does the bride get at her shower? Gifts for the home or sexy lingerie. What does the groom get at his bachelor party? Drunk. When a woman has a high-powdered, high-paying career she usually marries a spouse with the same. She does not seek out a trophy househusband.

We still make decisions according to traditional gender roles. DD is only at the far end of the spectrum.

Would domestic discipline work in my marriage? No way. It’s not how choose to live my life. But I wouldn’t force my choices on someone else, because that’s what feminism is about: choices.

And even though I’m a feminist, I like strong, macho aggressive men. And I damn sure like reading about them. As a fantasy, being swept off one’s feet by and surrendering to a strong, macho guy ranks pretty high on the list. Because a little tiny part inside wants to be cared for. Wants that Cinderella story.

Which is why I write about domestic discipline in an erotic, romantic way. In Body Politics, the third Rod and Cane Society novel to be released tomorrow, I paired a feminist with a dominant man who believes in domestic discipline. I wanted them to work it out, to show the thought processes and negotiation that might lead a diehard feminist to allow herself to be disciplined by a man.

I especially wanted to show the give-and-take that exists in relationships, including DD ones. What I hope readers take away from Body Politics is concern and caring with which the hero Mark treats the heroine Stephanie. Her well-being is foremost on his priority list.

Spanking is only a minor part of a domestic discipline relationship. What it’s really about responsibility and trust. How can feminism object to that?

Blurb for Body Politics:

Feminist Stephanie Gordon knows the instant she meets blind date Mark DeLuca it’s not going to work. Sure the deputy chief of police is criminally sexy, but he’s arrogant, domineering and sexist. Thank goodness after the evening ends, she’ll never have to see him again.

A member of the Rod and Cane Society, an organization of men who spank, Mark DeLuca is attracted to Stephanie like a paddle to a well-rounded ass. He sees beneath the shield of feminist militancy to the soft, sensitive woman she tries to hide. When she storms away in a snit, the chase is on. Can a spanko convince a diehard feminist her true strength lies in submission?

Body Politics is the third novel in the Rod and Cane Society series. All Rod and Cane books can be read as stand alones.

Such an excellent article! Thank you. A woman I know, who went through the ‘burning of the bra’ stages of early feminism once said, that what she sees now is not what she was standing up for. She was fighting for equality in the work place, and choices- not girls who are trying to be boys. She said somewhere along the line it appears that feminism took an odd turn in its definition. That teenage girls are stifling their natural emotions and reactions to situations because that is not a ‘strong’ woman. Basically we need to embrace that we are different. I find men who find out I am a stay at home Mom ( with no kids at home, shhh) are thrilled with the concept, and often mention how fantastic it must be for the kids- women are not always as generous with their thoughts. Like you said it is a ‘choice’

For us, the Dd dynamic helps break down walls -essentially allowing the ‘trained’ emotions to be forgotten and the natural responses to flow again ( I have no idea why it does, but it does). If I were to hazard a guess, I would say it is in part because I feel safe, and confident in my husband’s ability to take care of his family, and that I don’t have to control everything…how the spanking plays in, aside from being vulnerable, no idea.

I think the different responses to being a stay-at-home-mom come from different ideas whether it is by choice or not. If all moms are expected to stay at home with their kids, whether or not they make good stay-at-home-parents, that’s not any more empowering than expecting all moms to go into the workforce. And while we’re on the topic of motherhood, expecting all women to be mothers is yet another way that we divide and conquer ourselves.

Feminism should be about respecting all kinds of women from all walks of life with all kinds of ethnic, racial, national, religious, political, economic, etc. backgrounds. But I promised Cara not to write a post on her Fika day. More later…

Thank you, Willie. I think that basically feminism ought to seek to garner respect for women as they are, not try to change them into something they’re not, or don’t want to be. Historically, women and women’s contributions have not been respected. To make it in a man’s world, women felt they had to act like men (and perhaps they did have to), but I think it’s time to value all people as people and let them be who they are.

That was enjoyable and interesting to read, Cara. I like how you emphasized the notion of feminism supporting choices. Although I still remember conversations around that very idea that went wrong. Coming from a relatively small town and going to a private, liberal arts college, I was joyful to find the student women’s group. That joy was short lived when I found my lifestyle submission, that I hold it as part of my identity, was a problem for “them.” They told me I’d made the wrong choices; how/why would I choose to exist in such a situation.

I also enjoy thinking of the dichotomy of you writing DD fiction while not living it. After all, that’s part of BDSM erotic fiction for me- I write it, I live it… so says the metal collar locked on my throat. I definitely like how you touched on that small part of you that wants cared for.

I have to make room in my reading schedule for the first 2 Cane and Rod books so I can get to this one; now that I’ve read this Fika and more about the book itself, I can read it now. I admit, at first, the notion of the woman being a feminist was a sticking point for me; I was picturing one of those awful co-eds telling me I was wrong..

Joelle, I did PR for my college women’s center. One day, while at the center, I looked out the window and saw a squirrel scampering on the grass. I exclaimed, “Isn’t he cute?”
“Did you see its genitals?” The director asked me.
Say what? “No,” I said.
:”Then how do you know it’s a he?”

At the time I felt like I’d committed a crime against women, but now, I realize how silly it was, I do know that language has tremendous power, but really, there are far more important issues than which pronoun to ascribe to a squirrel.

For so long women were prohibited by law or culture from participating in anything that was considered the purview of men. So when women started to “get in to the game,” they felt they had to play by men’s rules, deny their femininity. Now it’s time to change the rules.

Feminism has evolved over time. It focused initially on suffrage, then on employment and education, then on broader issues like violence, sexuality, etc.

I think it can be trivial sometimes, but at the same time it can also highlight the way we make generalizations. If we always say “he” when we hear “doctor”, what does that say about our assumptions regarding who is qualified to be a doctor? Things like that.

Ana, I agree those assumptions- a doctor is labeled he- are problematic, but I’m not sure the second wave feminists have gone about broadening understanding and thought on that topic in “the right way,” as if one right way actually exists. I think there needs to be a middle ground between the extremes you mention Natalie and Kat holding.

Very true, Cara. There are really times it doesn’t matter. Although it can be hard to see that in the moment. I still remember having a gut level anger reaction at my Master because I’d handed Him a canvas bag to help carry stuff in. He took one look at the red canvas bag, said, “I can’t use this bag- it’s too gay.” Oh was I so unsubmissively angry at Him for that.

But yes, the problem of denying one’s femininity to fit… that can be messy. My family, I have the issue that my sister works out of the house- as a Realtor or staff person at a Realtor’s office- and I work out of the home- homemaker, home educator, activist/educator/writer for an interest group, BDSM erotic romance author. One day my mother told me that I didn’t have to worry about make up, my appearance, because I don’t a “real job like [my] sister”

I was looking forward to this Fika! Couldn’t agree more that gender equality is about having equal chances and respect. DD is a consensual lifestyle choice agreed upon by the parties involved. Just like any kind of relationship, communication is essential and DD sort of emphasises on that.

I think in general, people should be more aware of the differences around them and treat everyone as a person, where everyone has the freedom of choice (and maybe also dilemma from choices).

Nice article Cara. Intelligent and well written. You’re right about the traditional roles even in today’s world.

If you consider books like Twilight and 50 Shades (which I only got through the first one and was so annoyed with the ‘she was going to change him’ idea that I stopped – my disclaimer) – they deal with traditional roles. Women are taken care of or rescued by their men and these books have been hugely popular. I think that says something.

I’m fairly new to the whole DD concept but I wonder if you get a lot of slack for it from women?

I have not had anyone call me misogynistic or anti-feminist, but I’ve gotten dinged in reviews for the perceived nonconsensual nature of DD. People are generally okay with erotic spanking and bdsm, but for some reason, the punishment aspect of DD offends their sense of equality. Some DD authors do write about noncensensual spankings, but mine are consensual. The heroine’s okay is either given in advance or is implied, but it’s there.

Women being rescued and taken care of…that’s an enduring fantasy. Sometimes it can be a fantasy that makes it difficult for women to then accept their partners as they are in reality, but there is also something to be said for a really good fantasy.

And yes, whips and chains and riding crops can be celebrated as liberating while an OTK hairbrush spanking can be read as abuse. One is more explicitly tied to sex, and that makes it easier for many people to accept.

So much of what you said resonates with me Cara. I chose to stay home and be with my kids. I know I am capable.For me raising our kids and staying home was because I felt better qualified based on much of what you relayed regarding the natural gender differences. (maybe I was also selfish)I believe my husband would agree that staying home was hard work.. He often did do the stay at home daddy thing when he was between jobs. So he ‘got it.’ Not that it is easy in today’s society to garner respect when you choose to stay home. I love working and feel a desire to make my way again. However I wouldn’t go back and change what I chose. I agree that women have tried to create a definition of feminism that may falsely encourage us to feel we have to take it all on. And I also feel we have confused men…another discussion for a different day.
I actually dislike the word feminism because it is so misunderstood. It also garners emotional responses and not often intelligent discussion.

Man I am just running on and on……..Good discussion! I haven’t even touched on spanking in relationships! I will say that I love the idea that I can let go and just be….

It’s tough out there, Minelle. Putting aside gender roles, feminism and equality, we tend to identify ourselves by our jobs and job titles. It’s often how we introduce ourselves when we meet someone. And drilling deeper, I think it comes down to money. Those who earn the money are credited with a higher status than those who don’t.

Feminism has great intentions and HAS achieved a lot of good. I think some people are offended by its militancy, but in its defense, no great change was ever effected by someone asking pretty please. I think there was a lot of lot anger (much of it justified) fueling the movement. For many it is very much a personal issue.

I do address this militancy in Body Politics, Readers will come to see Stephanie re-examine her beliefs.

The money issue also boils down to simple pragmatics. If I as a woman depend on a man for a roof over my head and food to eat and transportation…that places me in a position of vulnerability. Vice versa of course, but how many stories have we heard of women trapped in abusive situations because they didn’t have the money to move out?

There also can be a narrow-mindedness to some aspects of the feminist movement, especially in how it completely ignores or appropriates the values and needs of certain types of women. How many middle and upper middle class white women, for example, have fueled their feminism in going out to get high-powered jobs by exploiting underpaid minority and immigrant women who clean their homes and nanny their children, often without even so much as contribution toward their Social Security taxes?

You’re right on both counts, Ana. When the traditional gender role system of man working/woman at home works….it works. The two roles complement each other. But when the system doesn’t work (as in a disintegrating marriage)…the woman is screwed, because she has been in a dependent position financial and has surrendered years of earning power.

Feminism historically has been a middle class movement. Women on the lower socioeconomic status couldn’t afford to participate because all their efforts went to keeping food on the table and roof over their heads.

And again, there’s that submissive side coming in…rather than tell their husbands, hey buddy, you need to step up the housekeeping and help more with the kids, they hire another woman, a housekeeper/nanny, to fulfill that role.

Exactly. There *is* something wonderful about the traditional gender role working in a family. All things being equal, there are perhaps more positives than negatives. It’s the problem when things stop working.

Very true about getting another woman to keep doing “women’s” work. I wonder how many families would return to a setup of one partner at work and one partner at home with the kids if they could afford it? For too many, that’s a luxury that’s simply not an option.

I applaud women who choose to stay home and raise their children. Usually, they make more sacrifices than you can imagine because most families need the extra income.
I was not cut out to be a stay at home mom. It’s funny, my daughter is the same way.
Doesnt’ mean we were/are bad moms we just realized that it was better for all concerned.

Cara’s life resonates with me. I love the “fantasies” but I would hate the reality of a dd relationship.

Great interview, Cara and Ana, thank you. Look forward to the new publication tomorrow.

Good for you, Sunny! I do enjoy the fantasy of DD. But in reality, no, it wouldn’t work for me. Or my husband for that matter. Since I write it, we’ve talked about it, and we’re in agreement on the issue.

I think it’s great to recognize what makes nice fantasy and what makes for a workable real life. For some people, being a stay-at-home mom or a DD spouse/partner is everyday reality. It works for them. For others, it’s a lovely fantasy to enjoy but would be horrendous in real life.

And isn’t it funny that we so rarely hear “I’m not cut out to be a stay-at-home dad. It doesn’t make me a bad dad. It’s just better for everyone.”

Thank you Ana and thank you Cara for a great blog post here. I totally agree on your stance Cara on strong women and the roles assumed in both the public sector, workplace and the home.

As a feminist and Champion of women’s rights myself, I have found that in my own Dominant and submissive relationships that it is certainly a very strong, independent thinking, and certainly outspoken in women’s rights issues woman that attracts the eros and respect in me personally.

My only concern and ongoing quest is for more equality for all women in the workplace, the home and in respect of both peers and the opposite sex. A continued dialogue for equality in pay scale, job placements and educational opportunities has to continue to really appreciate an equality for us all.

I so look forward to you book tomorrow Cara. And congratulations on the “Highly Anticipated” cover and release…..

Thank you Joseph! I agree that submissives can be independent thinkers. And one can be submissive in one aspect of ones’s life and not in another. I don’t think submissive means passive. It’s an active choice to be submissive.

Wonderful and thought provoking. Thanks Cara and Ana and everyone else for the great comments.

Thanks for taking on what can be a very complicated and controversial issue.

Just last night my husband and I were discussing our finances and he was very concerned about providing for his family (the two of us and a dog) and taking care of me.

Years ago, such a statement would have gotten him quite a tongue lashing about how I didn’t need to be taken care of and blah, blah, blah. But, with age and wisdom and a bit of perspective on life, I could see that it was really important to him to feel that he was providing for me and I had to admit that it was nice, though a little uncomfortable, for me to accept that it was ok for him to want to do that.

Cara–I love the cover and I’m very excited to read your book. Congrats!

Wisdom and experience do change perspective! Thank you, Celeste. I think feminists and non feminists will appreciate Stephanie and Mark’s story. Those of us who were more militant in our younger days, will likely get a chuckle out of it.

There is a popular opinion (not mine, but that’s okay because this is about expanding horizons) that men have been robbed of the chance to be men. I don’t agree with that view personally, but I do think that regardless of gender we want to take care of and protect the people we love. We show that in different ways, and perhaps there are typically male ways to want to do that.

This is one reason I love writing F/F fiction, by the way. There are fewer outcries about a woman submitting to a woman because it doesn’t carry the same emotional baggage as a woman submitting to a man. Then again, there are fewer assumptions that a woman should submit to a woman simply by virtue of being a woman, and that *is* an attitude we can get with DD. There are many who assume that all DD is M/F and that all women must submit to all men. So it’s a tough line to walk.

I’ve also heard that “popular” opinion that being a strong woman robs a man of being a man. I disagree. It reminds me of the old days when women were told not to act/sound too smart/capable because it would turn men off. People should be who they are.

And yes, F/F is not fraught with the same emotional baggage. It takes gender roles and notions of equality out of play.

Don’t get me wrong…women are just as capable of abuse and mistreatment as anyone else, but there are fewer societal factors that contribute to that being accepted. But for Natalie to mistreat Kat, for example, would have much different ramifications than if it were Mark mistreating Stephanie.

This is something I’ve been discussing with people for years. As a submissive in the BDSM lifestyle, people get confused at the fact I am also a feminist. They could not marry the two ideas in their heads.

The one problem I have is that people view feminists as ‘women who act like men’ and that unfortunately comes from what I call the ‘hard-ass feminists’. These women are amazing in that they fought and still fight hard for the rights we hold today. At the same time, they set a precedent that makes the term feminist rigid and unyielding.

But the fact is – feminism is about being who you are – whether you are male, female, transgender, or whatever you call yourself.

Outside my personal life, I am equal to everyone else, where I kneel and who I submit to in my person life? Is my business and His. Nobody else’s.

Well…and between two consenting adults who have not been coerced into giving consent….who the heck has the right to judge?

I do think, though, that many of us today can’t understand what it was like for the first feminists. It’s easy to say they were too unyielding or whatever, but to fight against an establishment takes a huge amount of determination and stubbornness. Only later, with security, can that soften into a less militant stance.

Thank you so much Cara and Ana. Cara you stated that so clearly and beautifully! Years ago, I attended an awards banquet with my husband and I was asked by one of women at our table what I did for a living. When I replied that I was a stay-at-home mom, she asked me how I could set such a bad example for my children! My answer was “What? A loving mother taking care of her children is a bad example?” She then informed me that I was setting back the “women’s movement”. My answer was that I thought that feminism was about supporting choices and my choice was to stay at home with my children. Not much conversation after that. LOL

Wow. That whole stay-at-home go-to-work debate I find particularly tiresome. First of all being able to stay at home with your kids speaks to a certain level of financial security, and not everyone has that. Similarly, not everyone has the temperament (or patience! lol) to care for children and a home full-time. It all depends on what’s best for that family and that person.

It’s not just a stay-at-home issue, though. Look at how any work that involves caregiving (children and elderly as well as those with special needs who need care) is shockingly underpaid. Preschool teachers, daycare providers, etc. as “substitute mothers” are who enable parents to enter the workforce, but these substitute parents are given little respect or financial compensation–or even job security.

I realize I’m getting a good deal more political than I usually like to on this blog, but Cara started it. 😀

You raised an interesting issue, Cat, when you said you were told that you were setting back the women’s movement. The women’s movement is there to help women — women aren’t there to help the movement. The movement by itself is nothing. It needs to grow and change with women’s needs. The same is true of any “movement,” whether its minority rights, gay rights, etc.

Very well put, Cara. This goes right along with a conversation we have been having among friends in the DD community. Feminism is all about choices. Which is everything that I am about. It is not meant to pigeonhole women into a different yet just as restrictive box. My husband is as big of a feminist as anyone I know. I personally consider myself a humanist. I believe in equal rights and freedom of choice for every human being. I love how beautiful our DD relationship is and also how much it honors our individualism and each of us as we flow within our relationship. I love that I have the ability to choose this in my life and not feel an ounce of guilt. In my opinion DD doesn’t work without that ability to choose. I love that I can choose to be spanked or surrender to my husband much like I chose to be a stay at home mom and now choose to pursue a career and take classes that fall in line with my interests. I love that I’m raising strong girls & loving independent boys. I love that none of these things contradict who I am as a person and I can be at peace knowing that all can be a part of a healthy life.

I just stumbled on this post per Ana’s direction. I like it. I confess, in my youth (12 years old) my good friend pulled me into a more Femi-nazi position. I would have to say, for the next decade, I was very anti-male. For a while, my parents were questioning why I even dated males. My mother took me aside and let me know it was okay to “come out of the closet” and start dating women. She was okay with it.

As I grew older, I realized my issues stemmed from pure jealousy. The ease at which a male can get away with things and well, they can pee standing up. (Yes, yes, I’m forever stuck on this one.) I attended a rather liberal university in a very liberal city and of course I had to take a woman’s study’s course. It was an eye opening experience. I learned I was just as bad as the sexist men. I was also very dissatisfied with my relationships.

I can say I’m definitely a feminist. At least the one who believes feminism means, supporting women choices and opportunities to do things regardless of their biological designation. I’m also now old enough to know, there are just some jobs which will be males only. For example – Navy SEAL. This is men only. I’m okay with this requirement. If a woman can do everything a Navy SEAL can do, well bully for her. There are other military branches that allow for it. No need to force the issue and be a Navy SEAL.

I digress. Back to the DD and feminism…I’m at heart a submissive and functions best in a DD household. Ironically, my spouse possess no interest in the discipline part. *whimper* I will say, I’m all for being in a DD household because I trust my spouse. Early on in the marriage it was very very hard. But after a few years, I can genuinely see his caring and wanting the best for me. So when he “corrects” me, I know it is with the best intentions. He’s not infallible. I also understand some of my kinkster friends mentioned above in Cara’s comment. Those who don’t like physical punishment at all. They find it demeaning and aggravating. They can’t understand it all. For me personally, I prefer it. It’s just how I was raised.

Well, hmm, this was rather long. I look forward to Cara’s 3rd book. I enjoyed both the first and second. I’m eagerly looking forward to reading the 3rd one. I really enjoyed the post and all the comments back and forth.

As your comments demonstrate, feminism/ DD is complex and dynamic. It’s not cut and dried, other than it boils down to choice. And happiness really. The question to ask oneself is, what will make me happy and fulfilled? Thank you for posting. I’m glad you enjoyed my other two books. That makes me happy 🙂