For the 'typical' user the internet is bad. If you're not proactive about security you are vulnerable no matter what os, browser... you use. I don't believe we should be pushing a product simply because it makes it easier for user's to surf with blinder's on. Knowing that IE has vulnerabilities, we can overcome them and surf safely. Believing that mozilla, opera... have no vulnerabilities makes us more vulnerable.

You still haven't convienced me of anything other then the fact that everyone wants the easy way out instead of doing it right in the first place.

Had a bad day yesterday!! Truck died on the way home. Have to get it and get it fixed today. Won't be around much today either.
For Nick, not scared just have more important things to do.

And for everyone, I have tried TAB BROWSING and I hate it. It's a personal preference that I 'personally' do not like._________________Recognition without accomplishment is meaningless.(NW)
The simplicity of a solution is directly proportionate to its elusiveness. (Maddoktor)
NW's Thoughts

NetWidow - I'm with you on this one. I like IE and now with SP 2, it does reduce the need for other tools. I don't see any advantage of tabbed browsing really - I think it's just personal preference.

Of all the years I've used IE, I've never been hijacked but once (learned my lesson the first time), and don't get spyware or malware, (unless I'm playing around testing something). People say Mozilla and Firefox are faster, but I can't see that either. I tried Opera for a couple of days and hated it. I found it *very* annoying.

I've tried weaning myself from IE but I keep going back because I like it. Some of my employer's online apps don't work in the other browsers either.

The new protection in SP 2 really does work to stop active x controls. I was installing new software on my laptop and the active x alert came up. Pretty kewl!

I still use IE-SPYAD, SpywareBlaster, SpywareGuard and Spybot S&D and will continue to do so.

Love Live IE!!! _________________Former Microsoft MVP 2005-2009, Consumer Security
Please do not PM or Email me for personal support. Post in the Forums instead and we will all learn.

Seriously, if someone knows how to configure IE and how to use other tools to be safe on the net, then why not?? In that case, I think it comes down to personal preference. In fact, in some ways I feel safer in IE because I do have good security settings and tools that I don't have in Mozilla._________________Former Microsoft MVP 2005-2009, Consumer Security
Please do not PM or Email me for personal support. Post in the Forums instead and we will all learn.

That wasn't intended to be taken seriously and I apologize if it was.
To each their own. As much as I enjoy a good debate, I don't see a point to continuing this one. We all seem to have our minds made up.
Rick

It was a good debate and probably others will read it and benefit from the discussion. _________________Former Microsoft MVP 2005-2009, Consumer Security
Please do not PM or Email me for personal support. Post in the Forums instead and we will all learn.

Good. I don't know all of you that well yet. Just making sure. Seen too many threads at other forums, with topics like "which is better: Ad-aware or SpyBot S&D" where the discussion turns into an argument. But since you said you didn't take it that way, I'll put in a few more jabs.
You've mentioned "other tools" whenever you've referred to Internet Explorer, mentioning IE-SPYAD, SpywareBlaster, SpywareGuard. You also mentioned SP2s new protection, which took how long to come out? From what I'm reading, a lot of people are having trouble with that, so the fix is still not what it needs to be. How many people were exploited up until that release, which should have been done long ago, but then most snails move faster than MS. If it takes a long overdue patch and "other tools" to make IE secure, I submit that IE itself is not secure.
To address a statement by Netwidow, specifically:

Netwidow wrote:

For the 'typical' user the internet is bad. If you're not proactive about security you are vulnerable no matter what os, browser... you use. I don't believe we should be pushing a product simply because it makes it easier for user's to surf with blinder's on. Knowing that IE has vulnerabilities, we can overcome them and surf safely. Believing that mozilla, opera... have no vulnerabilities makes us more vulnerable.

I use Mozilla because I am proactive. Way sick of waiting for MS to properly fix their software. I never said Mozilla wasn't vulnerable. I said it was much less vulnerable. The Mozilla group is proactive about security.
Regarding:

Netwidow wrote:

You still haven't convienced me of anything other then the fact that everyone wants the easy way out instead of doing it right in the first place.

I asked you what proof you wanted. You didn't answer.
Also, making the user preferences easy to understand and work with is not hardly "taking the easy way out". It's the more intelligent thing to do. The average user is not that informed about how to secure a system. As for the complexity, shall we compare the levels of bloat between Open Source programs and their MS equivalents? It's also a lot easier to change or modify program code and fix a problem when it's available to read, something that can't be said for MS. The proof here is easy to see.
http://www.mozilla.org/security/shell.html
The problem was reported July 7. The patch was released July 8. When has MS ever responded that fast? On top of that, the problem was more a windows problem than a Mozilla problem.
Sure, tabbed browsing is a preference. Just because Mozilla can open pages in tabs doesn't mean you have to. You can hide the tab bar entirely and open everything in separate windows, same as IE6. A separate subject anyway.
If you prefer IE6, that's fine. My system runs much better without it, so for me the decision is easy. Of course I use other security programs too. I'd be a fool not to. One third of my regular running processes are security oriented, and I didn't take the easy way out either. I thoroughly enjoyed setting up Kerio 2.1.5, and writing a tight ruleset, all 80 of them. No automatic rule creation either. I regularly audit my system, so I'm very proactive. That's why I like Mozilla.
Rick

The terms "Internet Explorer" and "security" don't belong in the same sentence.

If you like Moz because you like the features, then you should use it and learn how to protect it. But to think it safer just because it hasn't yet become popular enough to get the attention of malware writters means that you've fallen for the propaganda being spread now.

Quote:

All connectables need to be maintained and guarded. All you got to do is learn how to do it.

Moz is not safer. In fact, it is an infant when it comes to security._________________-

Whatever real proof you have that IE can't be run just as safe or safer than Mozilla, opera... Tools are tools whether built-in or separate the most important security is the user's knowledge of the proper use of them.

Let me make that as clear as I can. I want someone, anyone, to show me where I, the user who takes the time to be learn how to be safe and secure, who takes the time to learn what their system’s supposed to do, how it’s supposed to work, and how to keep the bad guys out, am more vulnerable simply because I use IE. Show me that educating a user on how to secure IE would not work just as well if not better then giving them a pacifier like Mozilla.

My problem as stated before in many ways, is the fact that many people, here and elsewhere, push the sentiment that if you switch to Mozilla you won't have this or that problem. I'm saying I don't have this or that problem and I'm still on IE.

Now, I realize that we all have different systems and use the internet for different purposes, but seriously most people have problems with IE do more to ignorance or lack of education then anything else. If you're proactive you can be secure on any browser. Everything else is personal preference.

People come here because the helpers here are supposed to be knowledgeable. So why don't we push out some knowledge about securing the systems they already have first? Then later when they have the knowledge to know what is need to be safe no matter what, we can recommend our personal preferences.

When a newbie comes and sees something like this;
(Sorry Nick I’m gonna use you as an example here)

Nick wrote:

The main problem with IE is Active X and the lax default security settings. Since most people don't even know how to change or why to change the security settings, they are vulnerable.

One of the best things about Firefox/Mozilla or any other browser is that they don't have Active X and the equivalent security settings are better.

So for the typical user, IE is bad.

And it’s from a supposed ‘expert’, ‘mod’, or … considered to be a valid source of reliable information, the newbie reads it to mean;
‘If I get Firefox/Mozilla I don’t have to worry about learning all that other stuff because Mozilla will do it for me.’

In math you learn the long way to work a problem first, so that you understand the relationship between the problem and the solution. Then you learn the shortcuts.

It would be much easier and make most students a lot happier if the instructor just skipped to the shortcut first. But how can you be sure if the shortcut really works if you have no knowledge of the relationship between the problem and the solution?

If you work the problem through for them and give them the shortcut at the same time, what are they going to focus on?

It is very important in this business to make sure we teach the relationship between the prob. and sol and that the students understand that relationship, before we show them any shortcuts. Otherwise how will they know if they’re using the shortcut properly? Or if using a shortcut for them to begin with?_________________Recognition without accomplishment is meaningless.(NW)
The simplicity of a solution is directly proportionate to its elusiveness. (Maddoktor)
NW's Thoughts

Unfortunately, NetWidow, you're making the presumption that everyone that goes on the internet is going to be as conscientious about security concerns as you are, or even has your level of intelligence. Reality is far different. Why did car airbags get developed? Because, despite huge amounts of money spent to "educate" people that driving with seat belts was safer than otherwise, people didn't wear them. Or they wore them, but not all of the time. You're asking computer users to buckle up before they drive on the internet, and most of them either don't know they're supposed to do it, or they don't want to do it. Microsoft is being asked by security experts to design the equivalent of a better model of car than the Corvair, and to update the safety features for the average user, not the computer hobbyist that spends time on computer forums. _________________"'Requiescat In Pace,' that's all she wrote." (Warren Zevon)

Pirate Bob,
That's one point I've been trying to make. The average user knows how to turn it on and get in trouble. XP was designed with that kind of mentality. Anybody can do it, or more accurately, it will do it for you. You don't have to know how. Therein lies the problem. Almost anyone with a 5 minute crash course can go online and end up with their system full of adware or worse, spreading viruses and being used for DDOS attacks.
Last week, I was cleaning out a computer for a neighbor. It was trojan infected, definitions were almost a year old. I wasted way too much time trying to explain that she needed to keep her AV up to date and trying to explain to her that she needed a firewall. Her response was typical of what I've heard too many times.
Roughly quoted:
The internet is such a big place. Nobody going to want what I have in here. Just some family pics and some e-mail. If they hack my computer, they're going to be disappointed, blah blah
She has no concept of the risks. I was about at a loss trying to find a way to explain that hers is just the kind of unit that hackers are looking for. high speed connected, running 24/7, no protection. Perfect for use as a zombie unit. Explaining that to someone who doesn't even understand what a browser is amounts to a joke. She didn't know IE6 was a browser. People like that don't belong online, but thanks to MS, XP, and IE6, they're all over, unknowing spreading infections and being used to attack other sites. Looking at what I pulled out of hers, I'm convinced it was being used as such.
The only good thing in all this is that I convinced her to let me secure her system as I saw fit. I put in AntiVir, Kerio, Mozilla, and HPGuru's hosts file. Set everything that allowed it to auto update. Now I make a monthly trip over to check on it.
My point's a simple one. This woman is not the exception. She's closer to a typical user. Her idea of being proactive regarding security is to call someone. That's what MS and their software has done for the internet.
Regarding:

Pirate Bob wrote:

Microsoft is being asked by security experts to design the equivalent of a better model of car than the Corvair, and to update the safety features for the average user, not the computer hobbyist that spends time on computer forums.

That's because they've done the exact opposite all this time. Everything turned on by default. User convenience was all that mattered. MS didn't give a darn about security until it was shoved down their throats.
Rick

PirateBob
No I'm not!
I'm stating that we the informed and educated need to inform and educate those that find their way here. Not give them a quick fix until they've learned how to properly secure what they have. That way the educated community will grow and more people will be secure. That's the way it should be done.

You're giving the novice excuses not to learn instead of explaining that learning is the only way to be secure.

Quote:

most of them either don't know they're supposed to do it, or they don't want to do it.

If they don't know, they need to be informed, if they don't want to learn that's their business and they'll probably not even find their way here. Most people who take the time to find these forums are probably pretty intelligent. After all they came here looking for help. I say teach them and teach them well. That’s why we’re here and all we can do.

And your seatbelt analogy is kind of weak. If you look you can find instances where seatbelts as well as airbags cost lives. There are risks both ways. Actually your analogy is pretty good just not the way you thought. They passed laws in the US that no longer give you the individual the choice to wear or not wear seatbelts, use or not use airbags. The risks and possibilities for harm exist but ways. The individual should be allowed to weigh those risks themselves and make their own decision about using them. We are no longer allowed that option. I was educated on the dangers of seatbelts and airbags the hard way. I have yet to see public service announcements about that side of the story and probably never will.

I as a completely informed citizen of the USA have taken precautions in the event I should find myself in similar situations. However the general public, you the consumer that thinks seatbelts and airbags will save you, are not as prepared. You believe these now security features placed in your vehicle will make you safer. A proper education on the true dangers out there would allow you to take the right precautions regardless of whether you have an airbag or not, or whether it functions properly or not.

Given the choice I wear my seat because I feel better with it on. But if I had my way that @#$$%%#$# airbag would have never been installed.

I know the risks because I refuse to walk through life with blinders on. I make the choices I make because they work best for me.

When some of you finally take your blinders off you might be surprised to see how far down the hole you really fell.

herbalist wrote:

Anybody can do it, or more accurately, it will do it for you. You don't have to know how.

Wait I thought that was the selling point for switching to Mozilla? Now you’re confusing me. So Mozilla doesn’t do it all and I still have to be educated and learn stuff to be secure? Wow I didn’t know that! _________________Recognition without accomplishment is meaningless.(NW)
The simplicity of a solution is directly proportionate to its elusiveness. (Maddoktor)
NW's Thoughts

Anybody can do it, or more accurately, it will do it for you. You don't have to know how.

Wait I thought that was the selling point for switching to Mozilla? Now you’re confusing me. So Mozilla doesn’t do it all and I still have to be educated and learn stuff to be secure? Wow I didn’t know that!

Give me a break. When did I say Mozilla does it all or didn't need configuring?

herbalist wrote:

Start with Mozilla being much more resistant to drive by installs than IE6.

Does that say "Install proof"?

herbalist wrote:

Mozilla's configuration is very straight forward, much more user friendly than IE6.

and

herbalist wrote:

Besides, would you rather configure just one program, Mozilla, or several: IE6, a popup blocker, cookie manager, etc?

Where did I say, no configuration or learning necessary? Where did I say:

NetWidow wrote:

For the 'typical' user the internet is bad. If you're not proactive about security you are vulnerable no matter what os, browser... you use. I don't believe we should be pushing a product simply because it makes it easier for user's to surf with blinder's on. Knowing that IE has vulnerabilities, we can overcome them and surf safely. Believing that mozilla, opera... have no vulnerabilities makes us more vulnerable.

Show me where I said any of that. The only one saying these things is you. No one else has.
Let's make this easy. Can we agree that the average user has little knowlege regarding computer security? Can we agree that the average user runs the programs more or less on the settings it "came out of the box" with? Now tell me that IE6 installs with settings more secure than Mozilla does. As installed, there's no comparison. As installed, Internet Explorer is horribly vulnerable. Mozilla is much less so. While we both know that's not the way either needs to be configured, unfortuately that's the way they're generally being run. If I have to deal with someone who's not going to learn how to secure their system properly, I'd rather see them using Mozilla.
And I didn't say invulnerable.

NetWidow wrote:

You're giving the novice excuses not to learn instead of explaining that learning is the only way to be secure.

I fail to see how suggesting using Mozilla justifies that statement. Part of educating someone includes informing them that they have choices. Take a look at my site, the
Making Windows 98 better link at the bottom of my posts. What knowlege level of user is that written for? Did I just say "use Mozilla instead of Internet Exploited"? Seems to me I tried to explain how to configure it and why. On every computer I work on, I add links to support forums like this one and explain what these links are and when/how to use them.
I see no basis for a lot of the conclusions you're coming to.
Rick

A bit OT but since you mention your page and the topic is about browsers/ing, I felt an urge to comment.

It seems to me that if you are going to display links to your pages in a pri/sec community, you might want to spend the $5/mo to get a real provider instead of subjecting users to the web-bugs/counters/etc found in most free space. Personally, I usually don't click on free space links even tho I know of none that my filters can't handle.

It seems this thread has turned from a factual debate to a basic rant. No surprise as folks do get very attached and emotional about their wares. I would hope that everyone would keep an open mind. It really doesn't matter what tools you use as long as you use them properly and guarded._________________-

Mikey,
A large print page title is shouting? I wouldn't have looked at it that way. Definitely wasn't intended that way. That's a reaction I didn't expect. As for the choice of hosting sites, when I can afford something good, I'll likely switch. I've been unemployed most of the summer so there is no money to spare. If the counter is a problem, I can remove it. Wasn't aware it was a problem.
What can I say? That's my first website.
Now we're really off topic.
Rick

WWD,
Thanks. My eyes ain't the best either. Seen lots of pages where the title is large. Never equated that with shouting before. I'm the first to admit I've got a lot to learn, especially in regard to making websites. As for the counter, I'll see what else I can use.
Rick

Wow. I got more than I planned for out of this thread! I have Opera and Firefox and IE installed so I can see which one suits my preferences. What has stopped me from using the IE alternatives is that I cannot use the scroll feature on my touchpad on my Dell Latitude laptop. See, that is what most of us base our decisions on, little annoyances like this. Does anybody know how to get this to work in Opera or Firefox?

Nice discussion.
I have used Firefox, Maxthon, Opera, and IE when I have to (update)
If I can I would like to add a just a few things. For experienced user I think it boils down to preferences. I think Maxthon and Opera have way too many options for me. I just want to browse, don't want all the toolbars and what not. I like the customizations and extension of Firefox and use it almost exclusivley. One suggestion is if you are lookiing to get away from IE then you probably don't want to get an IE based browser, and that would rule out Maxthon for sure.

For inexperieced users I really wish they would use anything but IE, because, "OUT OF THE BOX" they are more secure tha IE is.

I saw a remark somewhere about displaying webpages correctly or something like that. Why is it that IE and Maxthon will display this image with a shaded box but Firefox (and Opera) dosplay it with a clear background?
(this may not be the best background for it)

I have used IE for many years, and always wanted an alternitive. Up to the point I found FireFox, I always ended up going back to IE. Now that i am running FireFox, I will never return to IE. FireFox is extensible, and people are writing extensions to allow for the little differences between IE and FireFox. I can use Flashget in FireFox, and use the google toolbar, two of the things I wanted in a new browser.
IE as someone here has said, like a seive, holes everywhere....
One VERY good point about FireFox, it is open source, and if something dosen't suit your needs, you "Could" change it, and re-compile. That ability to customize your browser is an importent one.
Don't like a feature?, remove it! need something?, Create it...
I know this isn't something the average user would attempt, but an experienced programmer would love the option.

AND, if you control the build, nothing sinister gets into the program.

I'd like to see a list of all the unfixed exploits still present in IE for comparison.
Another good comparison would be to compare how long it's taken both Mozilla and Microsoft to fix a problem from the time it was discovered, not just reported.
Rick

Sorry to open up this topic again, but I really need help with FireFox and don't know where to post so if someone can help me out I'd appreciate very very much. I have Firefox 1.0 (latest version i think), win xp sp2. In Firefox Tools ->Options->Web Features, both "Enable java" and "Enable javascript" are checked.
I just can't seem to use Java on Firefox however. The reason I think that is because I can't open the online virus scanner at trendmicro.com. Every time I go there (after choosing my location), I'd get a blank page with a big gray square at the bottom and a java symbol in the gray square. And then Firefox would freeze up. I'd have to close it and restart browser again. Right underneath the browser toolbar, there's a message that says "the webpage can't be displayed properly because a plugin is missing" and an option to "Install the missing plugin". However, at this point Firefox already freezes up so clicking on that option doesn't do anything. Same thing happens whenever I open any yahoo games. Just a gray box at the bottom with a java symbol in it.
I have j2re1.4.2-05 installed on my computer. When I open Java Plugin in Control Panel and try to choose Mozilla as my default browser for Java, it tells me either Mozilla was not installed correctly or I need sufficient permission to change the settings. The thing is, Mozilla Firefox was installed correctly and I always use the administrative account (that's the only account I have on this computer). So I don't know what to do Does anyone know what the problem is? And what should I do? I really want to scan my computer with trendmicro
Thanks in advance for any help.

Sorry for the incorrect information above. I'm so dumb, I somehow missed the troubleshooting part on Trendmicro that says "to run housecall, you need either IE or Netscape" so i guess mozilla/firefox ain't gonna work there.

However the problem with yahoo games remain. I still can't open any of their games. However, after reinstalling java runtime environment version 1.4.2-05, I now can see the page (the surrounding ads and links), except for the game itself. Game (any game) wouldn't load, it just says "missing plugin" right in the middle of where the game is supposed to load. When I click on "Install the missing plugin", Firefox says "can't find any suitable plugin", which I know is Java. So does anyone know why I can't use Java programs on Firefox? I somehow got it to work briefly yesterday (don't know what I did to make it work and no idea what I did that stopped it from working). So it can work on Firefox, I just don't know how to do that . Will someone please help?

I don't have Firefox (yet), but many people recommend it. Internet Explorer has a lot of security holes, I believe Firefox and Opera are much safer browsers. Currently I have Internet Explorer 6, Opera 7.11 and Netscape 7.1 installed.

I installed the last two to be able to test my website in different browsers. That's why I haven't updated my copy of Opera and still have Netscape.

Internet Explorer is my default browser, but only because I share this computer with someone else who loves it. I love the features Opera offers, it's my favorite browser so far. I really miss a popup-stopper in IE.

I don't have Firefox (yet), but many people recommend it. Internet Explorer has a lot of security holes, I believe Firefox and Opera are much safer browsers. Currently I have Internet Explorer 6, Opera 7.11 and Netscape 7.1 installed.

Firefox and Opera are really secure browsers, but you should always use the latest version of Opera (7.54), because it fixes some security issues.

First: I think it is pretty foolish to think that FireFox is immune to security issues. As it gains in popularity, the issues will start to show - as they already are (wink, Wink - Mikey). So, that be that.

Second: I like Firefox because it is easy to use and the tabbed browsing. I am sorry to say that I do miss things like the Yahoo tool bar. I do hope they come up with something to sync up bookmarks.

Third: I do not get as many issues with Firefox with spyware. Not yet at least.

Fourth: I have no idea why I am enumerating this, but I guess I will continue.

Fifth: I am a little tired of all the open-source hoopla. Did anyone not DL the first versions of Mozilla? What a sack of trash. I am even a little skeptical of the FireFox dev group because they seem to not always take time to even do minimal testing on their patch they release. When the Jpeg exploitation came to light, they rushed something out that had the incorrect version on it. That, to me, says that they are pretty lax. There is something to be said about proper development of software.

Sixth: The RC1 of Firefox is pretty buggy actually and is crashing often (seems to have something to do with the pop-up blocking - go navigate the Rational Software site for a while, and you will get some crashes - or try the DrudgeReport as well.) Anyone else having this crashing issue? This is true of both my work and home machines.

Seventh: There needs to be a better update mechanism. It is getting pretty annoying to have to download the WHOLE app every time there is an update.

Hi Silvia, Firefox and Opera are really secure browsers, but you should always use the latest version of Opera.

You're right (ofcourse). I will update my Opera version now. I don't really need it for testing anymore, because I learned how to write standard compliant HTML and CSS anyway. The older version of Opera did show me some very bad authoring habits of mine, though.

System Requirements
Windows95 + Internet Explorer 4 is the minimum requirement. Windows98 + Internet Explorer 5 is recommended. Ace Explorer runs on all 32-bit windows systems, i.e., Win95/98/ME/NT/2k/XP/2003. A few minor features may not be available under Windows95.

For some sites, Firefox will not be allowed access and IE is the only thing allowed. So for those, use IE....BUT be sure to have patched and protected yourself. And know how to use the tools you have put onto IE. Toolbars are NOT always good {as a large portion of the HJT Log checkers can attest to} and should not always be treated as gospel for IE. The Yahoo Toolbar and Google Toolbar are considered somewhat safe (be sure to disable the spyware attackers on those) and I am still working on testing out the MSN Toolbar before noting what needs to be done on that one.

ESPN Bottom Line is a bad thing folks...It listens on a specific port and opens that port for attacks. Just browse the site {using Firefox in a seperate tab} to follow your scores people! Bottom Line is not malware/spyware/adware specifically, but leaves things open at times.

AND FOR GOD'S SAKES - GET A FIREWALL THAT YOU CAN CONTROL EVERYTHING WITH!_________________Padawan, formerly known as Anakin Skywalker, is now a member of IPF, check them out.

Not sure what the problem is ?, have been running IE since v 5 of course there will be updates, it is better now than it was 5 years ago, and it will be better 5 years from now, there are no programs in use that will not have upgrades, even Mo, Opera and any other new ones that come along, trust me they will be better in the future as well, it is my hope that someday I can have all of them at my disposal, why should we settle for just one PORTAL, after all most of us do not use 1 program and 1 only for other adventures in the cyberworld, I use at least 3 photo editors, a couple of word processors, a couple of video editors, a couple of different CD/DVD burn utilities, I want it, I want all of it, and I want it now!