Shofar FTP Archive File: people/k/kreiberg.ole/1996/kreiberg.1096

From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 1 18:27:57 PDT 1996
Article: 70700 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 22:51:07 +0100
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In article <32517A35.77F0@rz.uni-jena.de>, Falk Heunemann wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>> Only Germans can be genuine nazis.
>
>So how about Hitler. He was Austrian.
According to Hitler Austrians are Germans. To me Austrians and Germans
are closer related than even Danes and Norwegians.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 1 18:27:57 PDT 1996
Article: 70701 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 22:53:57 +0100
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In article <52pi0j$6be@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> You folks really are silly. Constitutions can be changed. Countries
>can withdraw from UN charters. There is clearly no obstacle to making
>everything he proposes completely legal, which appears to be the only thing
>object to.
Constitutions are made by humans and can be changed by humans. No
constitution - not even the German one - represents some immutable absolute
truth. And exception is those Islamic countries where the Sharia is the
foundation of the constitution. The Sharia is a part of Koran and is thus
given by God according to Islam.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 6 15:09:54 PDT 1996
Article: 72150 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 20:43:57 +0100
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In article , Holger Skok wrote:
>
>[Kreiberg: "Unconstitutional, who, me? - NO way!"]
>
>[skok: "Ethnic cleansing is surely unconstitutional according to the Danish
> constitution."]
I can understand that you have never read the Danish constitution.
>
>You probably don't understand the concepts used in the constitution
>very well. Ours does not contain an explicit prohibition of ethnic
>cleansing. It just mentions "human dignity" - Die Wuerde des Menschen -
>as the highest good that all the force of the state has to defend. It is
>from that dignity that the other articles are derived. Ethnic cleansing
>would violate that dignity and is therefore unconstitutional according
>to the German Grundgesetz.
I disagree that the creation of ethnic homogeneity would necessarily
violate "human dignity".
>I am quite convinced that Denmark has got
>a similar clause in its constitution or that its practical application
>at least would render ethnic cleansing unconstitutional.
I cannot find any. The Danish constitution is from 1849, and it was exactly
the introduction of this constitution that ignited those wars in 1848-1851
and 1864. When the Germans living in Slesvig Holsten heard about the
new Danish constitution which was going to be introduced they began to rebel.
>
>Secondly, you've got obvious trouble understanding abstract concepts
>such as keeping the present and the future apart. The fact, that
>you are aiming for a legal road to oppressing the ethnically foreign
>people in Denmark,
I am certainly not going to oppress any ethnic groups. No, I want to
repatriate those that ethnically and culturally are not a part of Europe. Is
that clear.
>and you would therefore have the Danish constitution
>changed to allow ethnic cleansing does have no bearing at all on the
>illegality of your aims under the current Danish constitution.
The Danish constitution does not mention anything explicit about "human
dignity" and it prescribes very clear how changes can be made. The present
German constitution was made as a reaction the nazi-era. Remember that there
has been no nazi era in Denmark. Denmark was invaded and occupied by a
foreign enemy in 1940. When the Germans left in 1945 Denmark had no more
problems with nazism. That it is why Denmark did not even consider banning
nazism. To the Danes or at least those Danes who experienced the occupation
nazism was krautstuff, and those few Danes that became nazis were regarded
as krautloving traitors. The Germans and nazism were regarded the same thing.
The Germans were the enemy like they had been in 1848 and 1864 and nazism
was thus an attribute of the enemy.
>
>Thirdly, our Verfassung at least, contains two articles considered
>immutable. The first, protecting that human dignity I mentioned above,
>and the 20th, which prescribes the republican form of our government.
Protection of human dignity is a noble thing but there can be situations
where other things may take precendence.
>There is no legal way of changing them, other than a complete dissolution
>of our state. We are supposed to have the right to rising against such
>a dissolution. Of course, a rather theoretical clause, since the civility
>of our society would have to have eroded to the point where the entire
>Verfassung was not worth much anymore, before such a clause could
>be invoked. But it has been included to stress the point that the
>power of the state is justified only inasmuch as it is used to further
>that human dignity of ours. If the state begins violating it (like the
>Third Reich did), citizens have no obligation to follow the laws and
>orders of the state any longer.
This all shows how different German history is. This difference is
reflected in the constitution.
>
>So, your aims to legally make the Danish constitution inhumane and
>legally violate the UN charta of human rights, is and will remain
>unconstitutional
The Danish constitution does not say anything about these human rights.
Even if it said so I would of course have my legal rights to work for
the repeal of any subscription to those human rights. Remember that
there is nothing above or beside the Danish parliament. The UN cannot
overrule a majority in the Danish parliament. In a true democracy as
the Danish you can work for any political program but you cannot implement
anything without a majority in the parliament. The constitution says
clearly that if you act against this principle you commit high treason.
I can work as much as I want for my plan of creating ethnic homogeneity,
but the only legal way to implement it is through gaining a majority in the
parliament. In Denmark there is a legal nazi party as well as several
extreme leftwinged parties that want a political revolution in Denmark.
As long as they do not make any violence or severely slander ethnic
minorities their political aims are fully legal. It is not unconstitutional
to want the constitution scrapped as long as this is done in a legal
manner. That is a through a majority of the parliament and a referendum.
(In such a referendum at least 40 per cent of all the Danish citizens must
have voted yes.)
>
>> The only authority would be the political will of the majority of the
>>population.
>
>Which can be oppressive and dictatorial as well. That's why the
>maturity of a democracy can be judged by the way it deals with its
>MINORITIES.
This is your personal opinion which I do not necessarily share with you.
I say that a country without ethnic minorities is a much better country
and that every country should adopt a moral and ethic obligation to
create as much ethnic homogeneity as possible.
>The majority rules anyway, but true greatness can be
>shown in the respect given to the different minorities. The treatment
>of the German minority in Southern Denmark and the reciprocal
>treatment of the Danish minority in Schleswig-Holstein are prime
Without these Germans in Slesvig there would have been no wars in 1848 and
1864.
>examples of humane, responsible politics in this area.
Even during the nazi-era there were no particular bad treatment of the
Danish minority in Slesvig and during the WW2 German occupation of Denmark
no privileges were granted to the German minority in Southern Denmark.
On the contrary the members of the German minority had to perform military
service in the German army and work in building military fortifications
along the Danish west coast.
>Well, since you object to being called hatemonger, I'll stick
>to "spouter of white aryan rubbish" or variations thereof.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Satisfied?
>
This is just your personal opinion. It may be wrong but I do not think that
it can be counted as libel, allthough I never apply the term, Aryans.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 8 21:34:53 PDT 1996
Article: 72755 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 23:45:02 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>
>> [...] you must agree with the nazis on all points or at least on all the
>> important points. Some important points are dictatorship, militarism and
>> social darwinism.
>
>Now, you try to convince people that democracy is a kind of "dictatorship
>of the majority." It is not.
>
I have never suggested something like that. I have never spoken out against
democracy.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 8 22:50:56 PDT 1996
Article: 72759 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 22:03:14 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>
>> Related blood (verwandete Blut) were the way the Nazi-Germans described
>> the Scandinavians. He never said the *same* blood.
>
>They did say much more. The true Aryans were the nordic tribes. Blond,
>blue-eyed and following tables of physiognomical characteristics matching
>Danes, Swedes and people from Germany much more than any average German or
>even Hitler himself.
Yeah all those ideas they have got from people like Gobineau,
Lapouge (especially), Chamberlain, Grant and Stoddard. None of them were
Germans by birth and apart from Houston Stewart Chamberlain they could
hardly be decribed as nazis.
>Due to constant confrontation - so the nazi
>explanation - Aryan mentality did strenghten in Germany whereas Denmark,
>Sweden etc did live in a a sort of racial paradise. The German population
>was seen as what it is: a mixture which had to be purified. One outcome of
>this strange ciew was "Aktion Lebensborn eV".
You are right here. I have found an old SS-text book with the title,
SS-Mann und Blutsfrage. It says the following on page 15:
"Das Hauptverbreitungsgebiet der nordischen Rasse liegt um Nord und Ostsee,
Norddeutschland, Da"nemark, Skandinavien, England und Holland. Nach Su"den
ist die nordische Rasse tief nach Mitteleuropa vorgedrungen.
Der Anteil des nordischen Blutes betra"gt in der Erbmasse des deutschen
Volkes rund 50 %. Daru"ber hinaus lehrt uns die Familienkunde:
J e d e r D e u t s c h e b i r g t n o r d i s c h e B l u t i n
s i c h ."
On page 13 the center (Der Kernraum der nordischen Rasse) of the Nordic
race is specified. Here you find only the very Southern part of Sweden
and Norway and the Northern most part of Germany and Holland while all
of Denmark is within this zone. That means that Denmark according to
these people was the only 100 per cent Nordic country. Gee.
>If you find this rather weak: now, me too, but that was the argumentation.
>
>
>> >Same does hold for French people
>> >to a certain extent (ye more North ye Aryan). And even in Poland they did
>> >search for Aryans within the polish people.
>
>> Yes in order to *Germanize* them - not to create and Aryan Poland.
>
>The point was, that according to you they never did try to establish a
>Nazi-Movement outside Germany. I did mention several states they did do so
>and did add on the search for "lost tribes" even in non-Aryan but Slavic
>countries as a "goodie". Your response does concentrate on the goodie,
>but not on what they did try to establish (partially successful) in
>Denmark, Sweden, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Lithurnia or - to add some
>more - the US as well as in Latin American states.
>--
Please tell me exactly what they tried to establish in Denmark. There was
a small naziparty in Denmark, but this party was established by Danes back
in the thirties. The same goes with the small and insignificant Norwegian
and Dutch nazi-parties. The Fascistlike movements in Romania, Hungary,
Slovakia, Croatia etc. were there before the outbreak of WW2 and had all
grown out of the reality in those countries. And what a about the main ally
of Germany, fascist Italy? It became fascist 10 years before Germany became
nazi. So no matter how happy you Germans are of being "guilty" there are
something that you cannot be blamed for ;-) . I do not hope that you are a
mad at me for mentioning that ;-) .
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Oct 9 17:55:20 PDT 1996
Article: 88109 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German hegemony over Europe through the European Union
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 21:47:26 +0100
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In article , Holger Skok wrote:
>
> In order for the standard of living in Norway
>to drop as low as that of Uganda, Haiti and Jamaica, the oil production
>in the North Sea would have to stop, existing industries would have to
>fall apart all of a sudden and the school system which the black adopted
>children from your example would have to learn in, would have to
>suddenly vanish, too. - All of that without any reason at all.
It will not necessarily vanish all of a sudden but they will fall into
decay and through a certain span of years the African level will be reached.
>I mean,
>how can the skin colour of the people living in Norway have any influence
>on the oil production? How can it let the water power stations which
>supply most of Norway's own electrical energy fall apart? - Just to
>mention two important factors determining the standard of living in
>Norway.
The most important factor determining the standard of living is the skill
and productivity of the people. The Norwegian standard of living is not much
different from that of Denmark, Germany or Switzerland which do not posses
many natural resources. On the other hand the standard of living of the
population of an oilproducing African country like Nigeria is much lower.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Oct 9 20:23:56 PDT 1996
Article: 88116 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German hegemony over Europe through the European Union
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:40:46 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Holger Skok (skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de) wrote:
>
>> I'd be surprised if my prediction in the above paragraph turned out to
>> be wrong. We'll see.
>
>Me too. I agree on your views. May be, Ole will find it a bit difficult ro
>come along with racial concepts, as he might remember that he still is in
>lack of a definition of it.
There is no problem in defining race. Even according to the UNESCO
there are three major races: the Caucasian (white), the Mongolian (yellow)
and the Negroid (Black). To that you could add the brown race, that is people
of mixed race that do not clearly fall into one of those three categories.
There is nothing controversial in this definition. It is only when it
comes to what belongs to the concept of race besides the outer visible signs
such as skincolour, hairtype etc. that heavily disputes may arise.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Oct 10 17:53:37 PDT 1996
Article: 88173 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German hegemony over Europe through the European Union
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:55:18 +0100
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In article , Holger Skok wrote:
>
>A mixture of races cannot by any stretch of logical thinking be considered
>a race of its own.
Now your thinking is more like nazism than mine. As far as I know the
nazis used to describe people of mixed race as raceless. The UNESCO on the
other hand tends to place the mixed races in the caucasian group. Well you
are right it may be incorrect to call people of mixed race for the brown
race. However in e.g. the USA people of Latin American descent that are
mixtures of Red Indians and Whites (meztizos) are sometimes referred to
as brown people.
>In order for your imagined outcome of the creation of an "all black"
>Norway to be likely in any way, you'd have to show a clear correlation
>between those physical traits that are used to differentiate between
>the three races and other traits which could influence the individual's
>performance in general.
The truth about the racial differences is so compelling obvious that the
burden of proof must lie with those that proclaim the racial equality and
not the other way round.
The races do not as a whole appear equal. It is up to you to explain away
this inequality. I do not have to prove the clear inequality already there.
---
To all German speaking people. Take a look at this patriotic Danish webside.
It has a section in German.
http://www.glistrup.com
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Oct 16 07:15:57 PDT 1996
Article: 74739 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:58:54 +0100
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What really happened to the millions of Jews who lived in Poland before
the WW2?
At the census in Poland in 1931 the number of Jews is estimated to 3.1
million. However, there was a considerable emigration in the thirties of
Jews to Palestine, South America, USA, France, the Benelux, England etc. The
Institute of Contemporary History in Munich estimates that approximately
hundred thousand Polish Jews emigrated each year from 1933. Thus there
arrived solely 68000 to Palestine between 1934 and 1937. Therefore it is
estimated that there were app. 2664000 Jews in Poland at the outbrake of
the war in 1939. After the German and Soviet invasion at least 750000
Jews escaped from the German occupied part of Poland to the Soviet occupied.
These refugees were spread all over the Soviet Union. Those who refused to
apply for Soviet citizensship were sent to special work camps, where hundred
of thousands died. In the Jewish Universal Encyclopedia vol. 6 page 176 is
written that the Jewish relief organisation, The Joint Distribution
Commitee in the beginning of 1942 organized relief to 600000 Polish-Jewish
refugees, alone in the Asiatic parts of the Soviet Union. There were now
757000 Jews left under German control. 100000 Jews escaped to Romania via
Bukovina. From Romania there was an escape route by ship to Turkey. When
the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, millions of people were
evacuated to the east by the Soviet authorities. These were in particular
the population of the cities and the towns that was regarded the most useful
in the armament industry. Most of the Soviet Jews lived in the cities. After
the war in June 1946 there were 240489 registered Jews in Poland. (This was
in the Western part of Poland which was occupied by the Germans 1939. The
other half occupied by Stalin was incoperated in the Soviet Union after the
war.) It is not known, how many Jews fled to Western Europe and from there
to Palestine and the USA at the end of the war.
Follow-up:
John Morris wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>> What really happened to the millions of Jews who lived in Poland before
>>the WW2?
>>At the census in Poland in 1931 the number of Jews is estimated to 3.1
>>million. However, there was a considerable emigration in thirties of Jews to
>>Palestine, South America, USA, France, the Benelux, England etc. The
>>Institute of Contemporary History in Munich estimates that approximately
>>hundred thousand Polish Jews emigrated each year from 1933.
>And they said this where exactly?
Yes
>> Thus there
>>arrived solely 68000 to Palestine between 1934 and 1937. Therefore it is
>>estimated that there were app. 2664000 Jews in Poland at the outbrake of
>>the war in 1939. After the German and Soviet invasion at least 750000
>>Jews escaped from the German occupied part of Poland to the Soviet occupied.
>And who says this? Where?
There are a lot of sources which confirm this (Excerpts from Walter Sanning,
The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry):
Nine years after WW2 on September 22 and 23, 1954 an investigating commitee
of the US House of Representatives (Select Commitee on Communist Aggression)
conducted hearings where representatives of several Jewish organizations
testified under oath on the subject of the persecution of Jews by the Soviets.
One Herschel Weinrauch, formerly an associate editor of the Soviet newspaper
The Star, declared that he was an official in the civil administration of
Bialystok following the Soviet occupation in 1939. In his testimony he said
the Communists made all refugee Jews from German-occupied Poland choose in
spring of 1940 between accepting Soviet citizenship or returning to German
control.
Because of the barbarian treatment accorded to these Jews from the western
portion of divided Poland by the Soviets most of them opted for a return.
Shortly thereafter, though, the Soviet government arrested all those who had
decided to return and transported them to Siberia. In Bialystok alone,
50-60000 Jewish refugees were arrested. All in all, the Soviet deported
roughly one million Jewish refugees from western Poland to Siberia. (Source:
Treatment of Jews by the Soviet. 17th Interim Report of Hearings before
the Select Commitee on Communist Aggression, House of Representatives, 83rd
Congress, New York, September 22 and 23, 1954 p. 40.)
Another witness, Bronislaw Teichholz, chairman of the International
Commitee for Jewish refugees from Concentration Camps from 1945 to 1952
confirmed Weinrauch's testimony. At that time he had been working in Lvov
where about 50000 Jewish refugees had decided to return; all of them were
deported by the Soviets, in the process crowding 70 to 80 persons into
railroad cars and then moving them eastward.
A third witness, Adolph Held, chairman of the Jewish Labor commitee, was
absent due to an incident of death in his family, but he had his testimony
read to the investigating commitee by the vice chairman, Jacob T Zukerman.
This witness, too, confirmed that up to one million Jews escaped to Russia.
Another witness, Henry Edward Schultz, national chairman of the
Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, put the number of Jewish refugees
>from western Poland deported on Stalin's orders to Siberian labor camps at
600000; 450000 of these unfortunate people have vanished without a trace.
The Polish Goverment-in-Exile, too, declared the Soviets deported
600000 Jewish refugees from western Poland in the spring of 1940. The Jewish
statistician J Kulischer, asserted that Stalin "evacuated" 530000 Jews -
500000 from eastern Poland and 30000 from the Baltic countries.(Source:
Gedeon Haganov, Le Communisme and les "juifs") Other Jewish sources arrive
at even lower figures.
Rabbi Aaron Pechenick described the Soviet mass deportation in his book,
Zionism and Judaism in Soviet Russia published in New York in 1943 as
follows:
"In two days and two nights [end of June 1940] almost one million jews
were loaded into cattle waggons under the most horrible circumstances and
deported to Siberia and the Ural. ... The terrible journey lasted from
four to six weeks. Having arrived at their destinations the Jews obtained
only bread and water to sustain their lives after the long working days
in the forest."
The Joint Distribution Commitee wrote in it's bulletin of June 1943:
" From a fifth to a third of the number of refugees died... whoever did
not see the thousands of graves, mostly of children, cannot understand"
From Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 11 p.184 you can find the following:
"With the outbreak of the war in September, the Poles began to loot stores
and attack the Jews ... the Jews were deported by the Germans [September
1939] to the area under Soviet control on the other side of the San River.
... Those who were deported to the Soviet Zone lived there in very difficult
economic conditions. In the summer of 1940 many of them were deported to
the Soviet interior."
>Martin Gilbert indicates that 250,000 Jews escaped eastward from
>Poland (_Atlas of the Holocaust_, p.36).
>>These refugees were spread all over the Soviet Union. Those who refused to
>>apply for Soviet citizensship were sent to special work camps, where hundred
>>of thousands died.
>And who says this? Where?
See above
>> In the Jewish Universal Encyclopedia vol. 6 page 176 is
>>written that the Jewish relief organisation, The Joint Distribution
>>Commitee in the beginning of 1942 organized relief to 600000 Polish-Jewish
>>refugees, alone in the Asiatic parts of the Soviet Union.
>These 600,000. Are they specified as Jews fleeing from Poland in the
>wake of the Nazi invasion, or were they emigrants from the period
>1933-39?
As Jews fleeing from the Nazi invasion. I do not think that Stalin's Soviet
Union ever received any immigrants at all.
>Hey, wait a second. You already subtracted these as people that
>escaped to the Soviet Union three paragraphs ago.
No, No and No. The 600000 is comprised in the 750000.
>> Most of the Soviet Jews lived in the cities. After
>>the war in June 1946 there were 240489 registered Jews in Poland. (This was
>>in the Western part of Poland which was occupied by the Germans 1939. The
>>other half occupied by Stalin was incoperated in the Soviet Union after the
>>war.) It is not known, how many Jews fled to Western Europe and from there
>>to Palestine and the USA at the end of the war.
>What the hell? You still had 950,000 Jews still alive in Poland even
>after double subtracting the escapees. Where are the other 700,000?
>Fudged away in the great "we don't know?"
Remember that Stalin kept his part of Poland, where almost half of the
pre-war Jews lived. How many were there after the war in this area, and
how many were evacuated?
>Now explain whatever possessed the Nazis to conclude at the Wansee
>Conference on January 20, 1942 that there were 2,704,000 Jews in the
>Polish territories under their control.
I think that they were exaggerating the size of the socalled "Jewish
Danger" of political and ideological reasons. I do not understand why
you always have so much faith in the credibility of the nazis. It is much
more common for dictatorships than democracies to exaggerate, distort and
lie.
---
A quote from the German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer:
How the unwanted Truth is received: "First it is ridiculed, then opposed
violently, for at last to be accepted as self-evident"
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Oct 18 19:39:30 PDT 1996
Article: 75534 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:58:43 +0100
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References: <543vfa$8va@news.enter.net> <544qmv$bir@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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On 17 Oct 1996 00:43:22 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>> olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>> What really happened to the millions of Jews who lived in Poland before
>> the WW2?
> 90% were murdered.
And which evidence does lawyer Edeiken have? Does he have the identity or
the bodies of all those Jews that he claims were murdered? No the only thing
that he has is the ravings of some German nazis.
>The murderers were your nazi heroes. Does
>that clear it up, nazi boy?
>
I am not a nazi, and the German nazis are not my heroes. I am only
interested in the Truth. According to people like Yale Edeiken you
either believe in the whole of the holocaust story, or you are a nazi,
period. This reminds me of Stalin who said that you are either with us,
or you are against us. This is the way that totalitarian minded people like
Stalin and Edeiken think.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Oct 19 10:44:20 PDT 1996
Article: 75627 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THE NUREMBERG TRIALS AND THE HOLOCAUST (PART 1)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:53:39 +0100
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THE NUREMBERG TRIALS AND THE HOLOCAUST
Do the 'war crimes' trials prove extermination?
by Mark Weber
A common response to expressions of skepticism about the Holocaust
story is to say something like "What about Nuremberg? What about the
trials and all the evidence?!" This reaction is understandable because
the many postwar "war crimes" trials have given explicit,
authoritative judicial legitimacy to the Holocaust extermination
story.
By far the most important of these was the great Nuremberg trial of
1945-1946, officially known as the International Military Tribunal
(IMT). The governments of the United States, the Soviet Union, Britain
and France put on trial the most prominent surviving German leaders as
"Major War Criminals" for various "war crimes," "crimes against
peace," and "crimes against humanity." In the words of the Tribunal's
Charter, these "Nazi conspirators" carried out their crimes as part of
a great "Common Plan or Conspiracy."
In addition, twelve secondary Nuremberg trials (NMT) organized by the
US government alone were conducted between 1946 to 1949. Similar
trials were also conducted by the British at L³neburg and Hamburg, and
by the United States at Dachau. Since then, many other
Holocaust-related trials have been held in West Germany, Israel and
the United States, including the highly-publicized trials in Jerusalem
of Adolf Eichmann and John Demjanjuk.
Germany's wartime treatment of the Jews figured prominently in the
Nuremberg trials. In their condemnation of the defendants, the Allies
gave special emphasis to the alleged extermination of six million
European Jews. Chief US prosecutor Robert H. Jackson, for example,
declared in his opening address to the Tribunal: (note 1)
The most savage and numerous crimes planned and committed by the
Nazis were those against the Jews ... It is my purpose to show a
plan and design, to which all Nazis were fanatically committed, to
annihilate all Jewish people.... The avowed purpose was the
destruction of the Jewish people as a whole... The conspiracy or
common plan to exterminate the Jews was ... methodically and
thoroughly pursued... History does not record a crime ever
perpetrated against so many victims or one ever carried out with
such calculated cruelty.
Echoing these words, chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley Shawcross
declared in his final address to the Tribunal: (note 2)
There is one group to which the method of annihilation was applied
on a scale so immense that it is my duty to refer separately to the
evidence. I mean the extermination of the Jews. If there were no
other crime against these men [the defendants], this one alone, in
which all of them were implicated, would suffice. History holds no
parallel to these horrors.
How compelling was the evidence presented at Nuremberg to substantiate
such damning words? How did the defendants respond to the charges?
While much of the specific testimony and documentation presented in
these trials has been dealt with in other Journal articles, here we
take a closer look at the general trustworthiness of the evidence
cited at Nuremberg and elsewhere for the Holocaust extermination
story. This chapter also focuses on the basic character of these
trials, which have played such an important role in "legitimizing" the
Holocaust story.
Political justice
The Nuremberg enterprise violated ancient and fundamental principles
of justice. The victorious Allies acted as prosecutor, judge and
executioner of the German leaders. The charges were created especially
for the occasion, and were applied only to the vanquished. (note 3)
Defeated, starving, prostrate Germany was, however, in no position to
oppose whatever the Allied occupation powers demanded.
As even some leading Allied figures privately acknowledged at the
time, the Nuremberg trials were organized not to dispense impartial
justice, but for political purposes. Sir Norman Birkett, British
alternate judge at the Nuremberg Tribunal, explained in a private
letter in April 1946 that "the trial is only in form a judicial
process and its main importance is political." (note 4)
Robert Jackson, the chief US prosecutor and a former US Attorney
General, declared that the Nuremberg Tribunal "is a continuation of
the war effort of the Allied nations" against Germany. He added that
the Tribunal "is not bound by the procedural and substantive
refinements of our respective judicial or constitutional system ..."
(note 5)
Judge Iola T. Nikitchenko, who presided at the Tribunal's solemn
opening session, was a vice-chairman of the supreme court of the USSR
before and after his service at Nuremberg. In August 1936 he had been
a judge at the infamous Moscow show trial of Zinoviev and Kamenev.
(note 6) At a joint planning conference shortly before the Nuremberg
Tribunal convened, Nikitchenko bluntly explained the Soviet view of
the enterprise: (note 7)
We are dealing here with the chief war criminals who have already
been convicted and whose conviction has been already announced by
both the Moscow and Crimea [Yalta] declarations by the heads of the
[Allied] governments... The whole idea is to secure quick and just
punishment for the crime...
The fact that the Nazi leaders are criminals has already been
established. The task of the Tribunal is only to determine the
measure of guilt of each particular person and mete out the
necessary punishment -- the sentences.
Indicative of the largely political nature of the Nuremberg process
was the important Jewish role in organizing these trials. Nahum
Goldmann, one-time president of both the World Jewish Congress and the
World Zionist Organization, reported in his memoir that the Nuremberg
Tribunal was the brain-child of World Jewish Congress officials. Only
after persistent effort were WJC officials able to persuade Allied
leaders to accept the idea, he added. (note 8)
The World Jewish Congress also played an important but less obvious
role in the day to day proceedings. Above all, the powerful but
secretive organization made sure that Germany's persecution of the
Jews was a primary focus of the trials, and that the defendants were
punished for their involvement in that process. (note 9)
Two Jewish officers in the US Army -- Lieutenant Colonel Murray
Bernays and Colonel David "Mickey" Marcus -- played key roles in the
Nuremberg enterprise. In the words of historian Robert Conot, Bernays
was "the guiding spirit leading the way to Nuremberg." Bernays, a
successful New York attorney, persuaded US War Secretary Henry Stimson
and others to accept the idea of putting the defeated German leaders
on trial. (note 10)
Marcus, a fervent Zionist, became the "number three man in making
American policy" in occupied Germany. As chief of the US government's
War Crimes Branch in 1946 and 1947, he selected almost all of the
judges, prosecutors and lawyers for the Nuremberg NMT Trials. (He
later became a commander of Zionist "Haganah" military forces in
Palestine.) (note 11)
Some of the Americans who participated in the Nuremberg trials became
disillusioned with the entire business. One of the few to make public
his feelings was Charles F. Wennerstrum, an Iowa Supreme Court justice
who served as presiding judge in the Nuremberg trial of German
generals. "If I had known seven months ago what I know today, I would
never have come here," he declared immediately after sentences were
pronounced. "The high ideals announced as the motives for creating
these tribunals have not been evident," he added. (note 12)
Wennerstrum cautiously referred to the extensive Jewish involvement in
the Nuremberg process. "The entire atmosphere here is unwholesome ...
Lawyers, clerks, interpreters and researchers were employed who became
Americans only in recent years, whose backgrounds were imbedded in
Europe's hatreds and prejudices." He criticized the one-sided handling
of evidence. "Most of the evidence in the trials was documentary,
selected from the large tonnage of captured records. The selection was
made by the prosecution. The defense had access only to those
documents which the prosecution considered material to the case." He
concluded that "the trials were to have convinced the Germans of the
guilt of their leaders. They convinced the Germans merely that their
leaders lost the war to tough conquerors." Wennerstrum left Nuremberg
"with a feeling that justice has been denied."
America's leading jurist was dismayed by the Nuremberg process. US
Supreme Court Chief Justice Harlan Fiske Stone remarked with
irritation: "[Chief US prosecutor] Jackson is away conducting his
high-grade lynching party in Nuremberg. I don't mind what he does to
the Nazis, but I hate to see the pretense that he is running a court
and proceeding according to common law. This is a little too
sanctimonious a fraud to meet my old-fashioned ideas." In a private
letter he wrote: "... I wonder how some of those who preside at the
trials would justify some of the acts of their own governments if they
were placed in the status of the accused." On another occasion Stone
specifically wondered "whether, under this new [Nuremberg] doctrine of
international law, if we had been defeated, the victors could
plausibly assert that our supplying Britain with fifty destroyers [in
1940] was an act of aggression ..." (note 13)
In Congress, US Representative Lawrence H. Smith of Wisconsin
declared: "The Nuremberg trials are so repugnant to the Anglo-Saxon
principles of justice that we must forever be ashamed of that page in
our history ... The Nuremberg farce represents a revenge policy at its
worst." (note 14) Another Congressman, John Rankin of Mississippi,
stated: "As a representative of the American people I desire to say
that what is taking place in Nuremberg, Germany, is a disgrace to the
United States... A racial minority, two and a half years after the war
closed, are in Nuremberg not only hanging German soldiers but trying
German businessmen in the name of the United States." (note 15)
Probably the most courageous condemnation was by US Senator Robert A.
Taft, widely regarded as the "conscience of the Republican party." At
considerable risk to his political career, he denounced the Nuremberg
enterprise in an October 1946 speech. "The trial of the vanquished by
the victors cannot be impartial no matter how it is hedged about with
the forms of justice," he said. Taft went on: (note 16)
About this whole judgment there is the spirit of vengeance, and
vengeance is seldom justice. The hanging of the eleven men convicted
will be a blot on the American record which we will long regret. In
these trials we have accepted the Russian idea of the purpose of
trials -- government policy and not justice -- with little relation
to Anglo-Saxon heritage. By clothing policy in the forms of legal
procedure, we many discredit the whole idea of justice in Europe for
years to come.
Milton R. Konvitz, a Jewish specialist of law and public
administration who taught at New York University, warned at the time
that the Nuremberg Tribunal "defies many of the most basic assumptions
of the judicial process." He went on: "Our policy with respect to the
Nazis is consistent with neither international law nor our own State
Department's policy... The Nuremberg trial constitutes a real threat
to the basic conceptions of justice which it has taken mankind
thousands of years to establish." (note 17)
In the years since, distinguished figures in both the United States
and other countries have expressed similar views. US Supreme Court
Justice William O. Douglas wrote: "I thought at the time and still
think that the Nuremberg trials were unprincipled. Law was created ex
post facto to suit the passion and clamor of the time." (note 18)
US Rear Admiral H. Lamont Pugh, former Navy Surgeon General and
Commanding Officer of the National Naval Medical Center, wrote: "I
thought the trials in general bordered upon international lunacy. I
thought it particularly unfortunate, inappropriate, ill-conceived and
dupably injudicious that the United States should have been cast in
the leading role as prosecutors and implementators of the trials of
German participants or principals." (note 19)
Another indictment of the Nuremberg trial appeared more recently in
the pages of the liberal New Republic: (note 20)
The whole majesty of the Western heritage of the law was used to
subvert that heritage in the Nuremberg Tribunal. Weighty jurists in
every Western country (but not Russia) protested against this
travesty of the Western legal system. So did historians. So did
merely cultured and moral men and women. If the victors were to
"try" the vanquished for war crimes, then they should try themselves
for often committing the same crimes. Who would try [British] Air
Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Travers "Bomber" Harris, the architect of
the policy of saturation bombing of German cities? But it was not
only a matter of our own "war crimes." If it was right to use the
apparatus of the law to punish those responsible for exceptional
crimes like the Holocaust, it was wrong to use it to punish errors
of judgment and statecraft such as every defeated regime seems to
have committed. "We used the methods of the enemy" -- and used them
in peace at Nuremberg.
While the Nuremberg trials were underway, and for some time
afterwards, there was quite a lot of talk about the universal validity
of the new legal code established there. A new age of international
justice had begun, it was claimed. Many sincerely believed that the
four Allied powers would themselves abide by the Tribunal's standards.
(note 21)
As it happened, none of the four powers that participated in the
Tribunal ever made the slightest effort to apply the principles so
solemnly and self-righteously proclaimed at Nuremberg either to their
own leaders or to those of any other country.
No Soviet leader was executed for the Soviet military interventions in
Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in 1968. No British leader was put
on trial for the British invasion of Egypt in October 1956. President
Eisenhower was not tried for his invasion of Lebanon in 1958.
President Kennedy was not hanged for his ill-fated 1962 "Bay of Pigs"
invasion of Cuba. President Johnson was never called to judicial
account for his conduct of the war in Vietnam or his invasion of the
Dominican Republic. President Nixon was not brought before a tribunal
for his armed "incursion" into Cambodia.
When (North) Vietnamese officials threatened to put captured US airmen
on trial in 1966, US Senator Everett Dirksen was moved to remark that
the Nuremberg trials "may have been a ghastly mistake." (note 22)
A double standard
In conducting the Nuremberg trials, the Allied governments themselves
violated international law. For one thing, their treatment of the
German defendants and the military prisoners who testified violated
articles 56, 58 and others of the Geneva convention of July 1929.
(note 23)
Justice -- as opposed to vengeance -- is a standard that is applied
impartially. At Nuremberg, though, standards of "justice" applied only
to the vanquished. The four powers that sat in judgment were
themselves guilty of many of the very crimes they accused the German
leaders of committing. (note 24) Chief US prosecutor Robert Jackson
privately acknowledged in a letter to President Truman that the Allies
(note 25)
have done or are doing some of the very things we are prosecuting
the Germans for. The French are so violating the Geneva Convention
in the treatment of [German] prisoners of war that our command is
taking back prisoners sent to them [for forced labor in France]. We
are prosecuting plunder and our Allies are practicing it. We say
aggressive war is a crime and one of our allies asserts sovereignty
over the Baltic States based on no title except conquest.
In violation of the first Nuremberg count of "planning, preparation,
initiating or waging a war of aggression," the Soviet Union attacked
Finland in December 1939 (and was expelled from the League of Nations
as a result). A few months later the Red Army invaded Lithuania,
Latvia and Estonia, and ruthlessly incorporated them into the Soviet
Union. The postwar French government violated international law and
the Nuremberg charge of "maltreatment of prisoners of war" by
employing large numbers of German prisoners of war as forced laborers
in France. In 1945 the United States, Britain and the Soviet Union
jointly agreed to the brutal deportation of more than ten million
Germans from their ancient homes in eastern and central Europe, a
violation of the Nuremberg count of "deportation, and other inhumane
acts committed against any civilian population." (note 26)
While Allied prosecutors charged the defendants with a "crime against
peace" in planning the German invasion of Norway in 1940, the British
government eventually had to admit that Britain and France were
themselves guilty of the same "crime" in preparing a military invasion
of Norway, code-named "Stratford," before the German move. And in
August 1941, Britain and the Soviet Union jointly invaded and occupied
Iran, a neutral nation. (note 27)
Given this record, it is hardly surprising that the four governments
that organized the Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946 included no definition
of "aggression" in the Tribunal's Charter. (note 28)
Mikhail Vozlenski, a Soviet historian who served as a translator at
the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1946, later recalled that he and the other
Soviet personnel felt out of place there because the alleged crimes of
the German leaders were "the norm of our life" in the Soviet Union.
(note 29) The Soviet role in the proceedings, which the United States
fully supported, moved American diplomat and historian George F.
Kennan to condemn the entire Nuremberg enterprise as a "horror" and a
"mockery." (note 30)
Nuremberg's double standard was condemned at the time by the British
weekly The Economist. It pointed out that whereas both Britain and
France had supported the expulsion of the Soviet Union from the League
of Nations in 1939 for its unprovoked attack against Finland, just six
years later these same two governments were cooperating with the USSR
as a respected equal at Nuremberg. "Nor should the Western world
console itself that the Russians alone stand condemned at the bar of
the Allies' own justice," the Economist editorial went on. It
continued: (note 31)
... Among crimes against humanity stands the offence of the
indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations. Can the Americans
who dropped the atom bomb and the British who destroyed the cities
of western Germany plead "not guilty" on this count? Crimes against
humanity also include the mass expulsion of populations. Can the
Anglo-Saxon leaders who at Potsdam condoned the expulsion of
millions of Germans from their homes hold themselves completely
innocent?... The nations sitting in judgment [at Nuremberg] have so
clearly proclaimed themselves exempt from the law which they have
administered.
An official with the postwar US military occupation administration in
Germany commented: "What good are the high-flown morals enunciated at
Nuremberg if the Americans have agreed to such things as deportation
in documents which bear official signatures, and which, therefore,
give the Allies the legal right to do the things which at Nuremberg
they described as immoral?" (note 32)
If the Nuremberg Tribunal's standards had been applied to the victors
of the Second World War, American General and supreme Allied commander
in Europe Dwight Eisenhower would have been hanged. At the end of the
war Eisenhower ordered that German prisoners in American military
custody were no longer to be treated according to the Geneva
Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war. This violation of
international law removed masses of Germans from the protection of the
International Red Cross (ICRC), and condemned hundreds of thousands of
them to slow death by starvation and disease. (note 33)
Perhaps nothing better illustrates the essentially unfair character of
the Nuremberg proceedings than the treatment of Rudolf Hess, Hitler's
deputy. He was sentenced to life imprisonment even though he alone of
leading figures of the countries involved in the Second World War
risked his life in a dangerous but fruitless effort to conclude peace
between two of the warring nations. British historian A.J.P. Taylor
once succinctly summed up the injustice of the Hess case and, by
implication, of the entire Nuremberg enterprise: (note 34)
Hess came to this country in 1941 as an ambassador of peace. He came
with the ... intention of restoring peace between Great Britain and
Germany. He acted in good faith. He fell into our hands and was
quite unjustly treated as a prisoner of war. After the war, we
should have released him. Instead, the British government of the
time delivered him for sentencing to the International Tribunal at
Nuremberg ... No crime has ever been proved against Hess ... As far
as the records show, he was never at even one of the secret
discussions at which Hitler explained his war plans.
The problem of evidence
The victorious Allies thoroughly scoured Germany for every scrap of
paper that might be used to incriminate the defeated regime. Never
before or since have a nation's records been so completely ransacked.
In addition to official government papers, including countless secret
documents tracing Germany's wartime Jewish policy, the Allies
confiscated the records of the National Socialist Party and its
affiliated organizations, as well as those of numerous private
business firms, institutions and individuals. The sheer quantity of
paper seized is staggering. For example, the records of the German
Foreign Office confiscated by US officials amounted to some 485 tons
of paper. (note 35)
From this mountain of paper, US military personnel alone selected some
two thousand documents considered most incriminating for use in the
main Nuremberg trial. The tons of confiscated records were later
shipped to the United States. It is estimated that in the US National
Archives alone, more than one million pages of documents on the Third
Reich's Jewish policy are on file. Many hundreds of these Nuremberg
documents have since been published, most notably by the U.S.
government in the 42-volume "blue series" record of the main Nuremberg
trial, the 15-volume "green series" record of the "second string"
Nuremberg trials, and in the 11-volume "red series." (note 36)
It is as if governments hostile to the United States were to seize the
top secret files of the Pentagon and CIA, and then selectively publish
the most embarrassing and incriminating documents from the vast
collection.
In the years since the Nuremberg trials, historians of many different
countries have carefully sifted through the German records, including
countless documents that were not available to the Nuremberg
prosecutors. Historians have been able to compare and cross-check the
records of different ministries and agencies, as well as numerous
private diaries and papers. (note 37)
And yet, out of this great mass of paper, not a single document has
ever been found that confirms or even refers to an extermination
program. A number of historians have commented on this remarkable
"gap" in the evidence. French-Jewish historian Leon Poliakov, for
example, noted in his best-known Holocaust work:
The archives of the Third Reich and the depositions and accounts of
its leaders make possible a reconstruction, down to the last detail,
of the origin and development of the plans for aggression, the
military campaigns, and the whole array of procedures by which the
Nazis intended to reshape the world to their liking. Only the
campaign to exterminate the Jews, as regards its conception as well
as many other essential aspects, remains shrouded in darkness.
No documents of a plan for exterminating the Jews have ever been
found, he added, because "perhaps none ever existed." (note 38)
At Nuremberg, the German documents were in the custody of the Allied
prosecutors, who did not permit defense attorneys to make their own
selections of the material. Historian Werner Maser has pointed out
that at Nuremberg "thousands of documents which seemed likely possibly
to incriminate the Allies and exonerate the defendants suddenly
disappeared... There is much evidence that documents were confiscated,
concealed from the defense or even stolen in 1945." Other important
documents suddenly "disappeared" when specifically requested by
defense attorneys. Officials at the National Archives in Washington
have confirmed to this writer on several occasions that the originals
of numerous Nuremberg documents remain "lost" to this day. The
Tribunal refused to allow in evidence several collections of German
and captured foreign documents published during the war as German
Foreign Office "White Books." Most of the 1,809 affidavits prepared by
the Nuremberg defense have never been made public. (note 39)
Among the documents that the defense was not permitted to bring to
light was the secret supplement to the GermanSoviet treaty of August
23, 1939, which divided eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres
of influence. (note 40)
After the Nuremberg Tribunal pronounced its sentence, Foreign Minister
von Ribbentrop pointed out some of the obstacles put up in his
particular case: (note 41)
The defense had no fair chance to defend German foreign policy. Our
prepared application for the submission of evidence was not allowed
... Without good cause being shown, half of the 300 documents which
the defense prepared were not admitted. Witnesses and affidavits
were only admitted after the prosecution had been heard; most of
them were rejected... Correspondence between Hitler and Chamberlain,
reports by ambassadors and diplomatic minutes, etc., were rejected.
Only the prosecution, not the defense, had access to German and
foreign archives. The prosecution only searched for incriminating
documents and their use was biased. It knowingly concealed
exonerating documents and withheld them from the defense.
The Charter of the International Military Tribunal permitted the use
of normally inadmissible "evidence." Article 19 specified that "The
Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence... and
shall admit any evidence which it deems to have probative value."
Article 21 stipulated: (note 42)
The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge
but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial
notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United
[Allied] Nations, including acts and documents of the committees set
up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war
crimes, and the records and findings of military and other Tribunals
of any of the United [Allied] Nations.
On the basis of these articles, the Tribunal accepted as valid the
most dubious "evidence," including hearsay and unsubstantiated reports
of Soviet and American "investigative" commissions. For example, the
Tribunal accepted an American congressional report that "proved" gas
chamber killings at Dachau, and a Polish government report (submitted
by the US) that "proved" killings by steam at Treblinka. (note 43) (No
reputable historian now accepts either of these stories.)
In addition, the Tribunal validated Soviet reports about Auschwitz and
Majdanek (documents USSR-8 and USSR-29), which explained in detail how
the Germans killed four million at Auschwitz and another
one-and-a-half million at Majdanek. (These days, no reputable
historian accepts either of these fantastic figures.)
German guilt for the killing of thousands of Polish officers in the
Katyn forest near Smolensk was similarly confirmed by Nuremberg
document USSR-54. This detailed report by yet another Soviet
"investigative" commission was submitted as proof for the charge made
in the joint indictment of the four Allied governments. As a Soviet
prosecutor explained: "We find, in the Indictment, one of the most
important criminal acts for which the major war criminals are
responsible was the mass execution of Polish prisoners of war shot in
the Katyn forest near Smolensk by the German fascist invaders." (note
44) (Interestingly, two of the eight members of the Soviet Katyn
Commission were also members of the Soviet Auschwitz commission:
Academician N. Burdenko and Metropolitan Nikolai.) It wasn't until
1990 that the Soviet government finally acknowledged that the Katyn
massacre was carried out, not by a German unit, as "proven" at
Nuremberg, but by the Soviet secret police. (note 45)
It is sometimes claimed that the evidence presented by the prosecution
to the Nuremberg Tribunal was so incontrovertible that none of the
defense attorneys ever disputed the authenticity or accuracy of even a
single prosecution document. (note 46) This is not true. Not only did
defense lawyers protest against the prosecution use of spurious
documents, but some of the most important Nuremberg documents are now
generally acknowledged to be fraudulent. (note 47)
For example, defense attorney Dr. Boehm protested to the Tribunal that
Nuremberg document 1721-PS, which purportedly confirms attacks by
stormtroopers against Jewish synagogues in November 1938, is a clumsy
forgery. He went on to explain his reasons at some length. (note 48)
Several Nuremberg documents based on the purported "death bed
confession" of Mauthausen commandant Franz Ziereis, are demonstrably
fraudulent. (Nuremberg documents 1515-PS, 3870-PS, and NO-1973.) These
documents supposedly prove systematic killings of hundreds of
thousands of people by gassing and other means at Mauthausen and
Hartheim. (note 49)
Almost forty years after the Tribunal handed down its verdicts,
Nuremberg document USSR-378 was definitively exposed as a fraud. It is
a purported record of numerous private conversations with Hitler by
Hermann Rauschning, a former National Socialist official in Danzig. In
brutal language, the F³hrer supposedly revealed his most intimate
thoughts and secret plans for world conquest. Rauschning's "memoir"
was published in 1939 in Britain under the title Hitler Speaks, and in
the United States in 1940 as The Voice of Destruction. It was this US
edition that was accepted in evidence at Nuremberg as proof of the
"guiding principles of the Nazi regime."
Chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley Shawcross and his Soviet
colleagues cited numerous quotations from it. Defendant Baldur von
Schirach contested its authenticity, but defense attorney Pelckmann
(who did not know any better) accepted this "evidence" as authentic.
(note 50) In 1983 Swiss historian Wolfgang Hõnel established that the
"memoir" is entirely fraudulent. Rauschning never had even a single
private meeting with Hitler. (note 51)
Another fraudulent Nuremberg document is the so-called "Hossbach
protocol" (document 386-PS), a purported record of a high-level 1937
conference at which Hitler supposedly revealed his secret plans for
aggressive conquest. US Nuremberg prosecutor Sidney Alderman called it
"one of the most striking and revealing of all the captured
documents," and told the Tribunal that it removed any remaining doubts
about the guilt of the Germans leaders for their crimes against peace.
It was largely on the basis of this document that G÷ring was condemned
to death. (note 52)
Similarly spurious is Nuremberg document L-3 (US-28), supposedly a
record of a bellicose speech by Hitler to armed forces commanders on
August 22, 1939. It contains a widelycited quotation attributed to
Hitler, "Who talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?"
(note 53)
Jewish historian Lucy Dawidowicz, author of The War Against the Jews,
acknowledged that "There are also Holocaust documents that are
outright falsification and some that purvey myth rather than
historical fact." (note 54)
Dubious testimony
Much of the evidence for the Holocaust story presented at Nuremberg
and in subsequent trials has been "survivor testimony." As numerous
historians have acknowledged, though, such testimony is often
defective. (note 55)
Gerald Reitlinger cautioned readers of his detailed study, The Final
Solution, that Holocaust evidence, including Nuremberg documents and
testimony, cannot be accepted at face value: "A certain degree of
reserve is necessary in handling all this material, and particularly
this applies to the last section (survivor narratives) ... The Eastern
European Jew is a natural rhetorician, speaking in flowery similes."
(note 56) French historian Jean-Claude Pressac likewise warned in his
detailed book about Auschwitz that "extreme care is required with the
testimony of survivors ..." (note 57)
Jewish historian Hannah Arendt observed in her book Eichmann in
Jerusalem that the "eyewitnesses" who testified in the 1961 trial in
Jerusalem of Adolf Eichmann were only rarely able to distinguish
between what actually happened to them years earlier and what they had
read, heard or imagined in the meantime. (note 58) Holocaust historian
Lucy Dawidowicz similarly noted that "the survivor's memory is often
distorted by hate, sentimentality, and the passage of time. His
perspective on external events is often skewed by the limits of his
personal experience." (note 59)
French historian Germain Tillion, a specialist of the Second World War
period, has warned that former camp inmates who lie are, in fact,
(note 60)
very much more numerous than people generally suppose, and a subject
like that of the concentration camp world -- well designed, alas, to
stimulate sado-masochistic imaginations -- offered them an
exceptional field of action. We have known numerous mentally damaged
persons, half-swindlers and half fools, who exploited an imaginary
deportation. We have known others of them -- authentic deportees --
whose sick minds strove to even go beyond the monstrosities that
they had seen or that people said happened to them.
Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz, who was himself interned in the
ghetto of Kaunas (Lithuania) during the war, criticized what he called
the "hyperhistorical" nature of most Jewish "survivor testimony." He
wrote that "most of the memoirs and reports are full of preposterous
verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated
self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism,
unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies." (note 61)
Shmuel Krakowki, archives director of the Israeli government's
Holocaust center, Yad Vashem, confirmed in 1986 that more than 10,000
of the 20,000 "testimonies" of Jewish "survivors" on file there are
"unreliable." Many survivors, wanting "to be part of history" may have
let their imaginations run away with them, Krakowski said. "Many were
never in the places where they claimed to have witnessed atrocities,
while others relied on second-hand information given them by friends
or passing strangers." He confirmed that many of the testimonies on
file at Yad Vashem were later proved to be inaccurate when locations
and dates could not pass an expert historian's appraisal. (note 62)
We now know that witnesses at the main Nuremberg trial gave false
testimony. Perhaps the most obvious were the three witnesses who
ostensibly confirmed German guilt for the Katyn massacre of Polish
officers. (note 63)
Stephen F. Pinter of St. Louis, Missouri, served as a US Army
prosecuting attorney from January 1946 to July 1947 at the American
trials of Germans at Dachau. Altogether, some 420 Germans were
sentenced to death in these Dachau trials. In a 1960 affidavit Pinter
stated that "notoriously perjured witnesses" were used to charge
Germans with "false and unfounded" crimes. "Unfortunately, as a result
of these miscarriages of justice, many innocent persons were convicted
and some were executed." (note 64)
A tragi-comic incident during the Dachau proceedings suggests the
general atmosphere. US investigator Joseph Kirschbaum brought a Jewish
witness named Einstein into court to testify that the defendant,
Menzel, had murdered Einstein's brother. But when the accused pointed
out that the brother was, in fact, sitting in the courtroom, an
embarrassed Kirschbaum scolded the witness: "How can we bring this pig
to the gallows if you are so stupid as to bring your brother into
court?" (note 65)
August Gross, a German who worked as a civilian employee for the U.S.
Army at the Dachau trials, later declared: (note 66)
The American prosecutors paid professional incrimination witnesses,
mostly former criminal concentration camp inmates, the amount of one
dollar per day (at that time worth 280 marks on the black market) as
well as food from a witness kitchen and witness lodging. During the
recess periods between trial proceedings the US prosecuting
attorneys told these witnesses what they were to say in giving
testimony. The US prosecuting attorneys gave the witnesses photos of
the defendants and were thereby able to easily incriminate them.
A young US Army court reporter at the Dachau trials in 1947, Joseph
Halow, later recalled the unwholesome situation:
The witnesses in the concentration camp cases were virtually all of
the sort we court reporters termed "professional witnesses," those
who spent months in Dachau, testifying against one or another of the
many accused... It was to their economic advantage to testify, and
many of them made a good living doing so. As one might well imagine,
the motive of the professional witnesses was also one of spite and
revenge... In many instances their vengeance included relating
exaggerated accounts of what they had witnessed. It also included
outright lying.
In one case, testimony provided by the prosecution witnesses "appeared
to raise more questions then provide answers. Some of it was obviously
fabricated, or so grossly exaggerated as to render it unbelievable.
There were repeated instances of mistaken identity of the same
accused, and vague, uncertain statements about some of the others."
Moreover, Halow reported, the US courts paid "scant attention to
testimony by and for the accused." (note 67)
In the 1947 "Nordhausen-Dora" case, American defense attorney Major
Leon B. Poullada protested against the general unreliability -- and
frequent outright lying -- of prosecution witnesses in this US
military trial of former concentration camp officials. (note 68)
Use of such unreliable testimony continued in "Holocaust" trials in
later years. Federal district judge Norman C. Roettger, Jr., ruled in
1978 in a Florida case that all six Jewish "eyewitnesses" who had
testified to direct atrocities and shootings at Treblinka by
Ukrainian-born defendant Feodor Fedorenko had wrongly identified the
accused after being misled by Israeli authorities. (note 69)
New York "Nazi hunter" Charles Kremer visited Israel in 1981 looking
for Jews who could confirm atrocities allegedly committed by a former
Ukrainian SS man living in New Jersey. But Kremer cut short his visit,
bitterly disappointed by the numerous Jews who offered to provide
spurious "testimony" in return for money. As the Brooklyn Jewish Press
reported, "Kremer was stricken with gastronomic pains -- a malady he
attributes to his difficulties in dealing with hucksters who tried to
use his search for their personal gain." (note 70)
One of the most blatant examples of perjury by Jewish Holocaust
witnesses in recent years was in the case of a retired Chicago factory
worker named Frank Walus who was charged with killing Jews in his
native Poland during the war. A December 1974 letter from "Nazi
hunter" Simon Wiesenthal that accused Walus of working for the Gestapo
prompted the US government's legal campaign. During his trial, eleven
Jews testified under oath that they personally saw Walus murder Jews,
including several children. After a costly and bitterly contested
four-year legal battle, Walus was finally able to prove that he had
actually spent the war years as a teenager quietly working on German
farms. A lengthy article copyrighted by the American Bar Association
and published in 1981 in the Washington Post concluded that "... in an
atmosphere of hatred and loathing verging on hysteria, the government
persecuted an innocent man." (note 71)
(continued in part 2)
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 21 07:02:34 PDT 1996
Article: 76076 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:58:55 +0100
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In article <3272a574.13887138@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, John Morris wrote:
>In , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>There are a lot of sources which confirm this (Excerpts from Walter Sanning,
>>The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry):
>
>> Nine years after WW2 on September 22 and 23, 1954 an investigating commitee
>>of the US House of Representatives (Select Commitee on Communist Aggression)
>>conducted hearings where representatives of several Jewish organizations
>>testified under oath on the subject of the persecution of Jews by the Soviets.
>>One Herschel Weinrauch, formerly an associate editor of the Soviet newspaper
>>The Star, declared that he was an official in the civil administration of
>>Bialystok following the Soviet occupation in 1939. In his testimony he said
>>the Communists made all refugee Jews from German-occupied Poland choose in
>>spring of 1940 between accepting Soviet citizenship or returning to German
>>control.
>> Because of the barbarian treatment accorded to these Jews from the western
>>portion of divided Poland by the Soviets most of them opted for a return.
>
>In other words, most Jews returned to the western, Nazi-controlled
>sector.
No they were not allowed to do so.
>
>>Shortly thereafter, though, the Soviet government arrested all those who had
>>decided to return and transported them to Siberia.
>
>This assertion is not mentioned in the Committee's final report.
>
>> In Bialystok alone,
>>50-60000 Jewish refugees were arrested.
>
>The Bialystok ghetto was still in existence when it fell into Nazi
>hands. The entire population of the ghetto was transferred not, I
>note, "to the East," but to the southwest, to Auschwitz.
This Ghetto has been there long before the outbreak of WW2. We are only
discussing the Jewish refugees from Western Poland.
>
>The Committee, it should be noted, was able to produce highly-detailed
>statistics in a wide variety of economic categories where the Soviets
>had caused harm to the Polish economy. In addition, the Committee had
>accurate figures on the numbers of Polish prisoners of war taken to
>the Soviet Union but was unable to make more than an estimate of the
^^^^^^^^^^^
>missing Jews.
Hm an estimate. Like the 4 million Jews killed in Auschwitz (now reduced
officially to 1.5 million) or the 6 million Jews alltogether?
>
>The Committee concluded from documents smuggled out of the Soviet
>sector that there were one million Jews altogether in Soviet-occupied
>Poland in 1939 and that 1.6 million *Poles* were deported to the
>Soviet Union. The categories of deportees are listed, but Jews are not
>one of the categories (p. 9, Special Report 1: Poland).
But the Jews were Polish citizens. Did the Soviets make a distinction
between Jews and non-Jews among non-Soviet citizens? You are guessing that
the Jewish refugees from the German occupied part of Poland were a part of
this number.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 21 07:02:35 PDT 1996
Article: 76077 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:18:08 -0100
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In article <32681f4b.37560059@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, John Morris wrote:
>In , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> I am not a nazi, and the German nazis are not my heroes. I am only
>>interested in the Truth. According to people like Yale Edeiken you
>>either believe in the whole of the holocaust story, or you are a nazi,
>>period. This reminds me of Stalin who said that you are either with us,
>>or you are against us. This is the way that totalitarian minded people like
>>Stalin and Edeiken think.
>
>According to people like Kreiberg, you're not a Nazi if you say you're
>not, even if you advocate identical racial policies and publicly
>express your admiration for groups like Pierce's National Alliance.
I may have something in common with them. But this is not the same
as being one of them. Hitler and Stalin had much in common but communism
and nazism were still two widely different ideologies. A central pillar
in the nazi-ideology was the leadership principle (dictatorship). I do
not subscribe to that. So I cannot be a nazi. Furthermore Hitler said
several times that national socialism knows only Germany and is not
meant for export. Nazism was krautstuff only and not being a German I am
therefore not able to identify myself with it.
>This reminds me of Hitler who said he would rid his country of
>racially impure elements, just like Kreiberg wants to rid his country
>of the same.
He also built fine expressways. After the war the other European countries
did the same without being labelled as "nazis" or nazi-symphatizers.
>This is the excuse self-deceiving totalitarians like
>Hitler and Kreiberg use to substitute for thinking.
>
Calling me a totalitarian without the slightest piece of evidence is libel
for which I could easily sue you if you lived in Denmark. And do you really
want us to believe that you cannot be a racialist without being a
totalitarian.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 21 07:31:05 PDT 1996
Article: 33694 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.nuke.the.USA,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Gary Lauck: The Farm Belt Fuehrer.
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:38:11 +0100
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In article <546jvh$h1c@news.ais.net>, Ned Kelly wrote:
>Instead he goes to Denmark to give a
>speech in his German accent to a bunch of fellow fuckwits. What a
>senseless waste of a perfectly good dialect talent. Gary Lauck is a
>pathetic example of the lengths people will go to try to get to the
>middle class.
>
He did not make any speech in Denmark. After pressure from Germany he
was arrested and extradited to Germany for something that he has legally
done in the USA. Pure kangaroo justice enforced in Denmark by obnoxious
Germany. An example of German hegemony and humiliation of Denmark.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 07:41:21 PDT 1996
Article: 76299 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:13:37 +0100
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In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>
>> In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>> >
>> >He did export it to nearly every country he could. France, Netherlands,
>> >Belgium, Denmark, Hungary, Jugoslavia (mainly Croatian part), Greece and a
>> >lot of other countries. And you now that, me seems, as in other articles
>> >you note that he or "the Germans" did try in Denmark.
>
>> What did they try in Denmark?
>
>> Give me just one example that the Germans tried to nazify Denmark
>> during WW2.
>
>Sorry, it is you who did say so when mourning about Germany setting
>Denmark under pressure about a year ago. It was me who told you then that
>he tried but did not have much success, almost none to be exact. The issue
>then was to make the people and bureaucracy to hand over Jews to the SS.
Yes they certainly did set Denmark under pressure during WW2 but never
with regard to nazification. The worst thing they did was to pressure
Denmark to ban the communist party and intern some of the leaders. This was
clearly unconstitutional like it would be today if they pressured Denmark
to ban the Danish nazi-party through their EU.
>
>
>> In Croatia and Hungary there were already strong fascistlike movements that
>> saw Nazi-Germany as an convenient ally.
>
>Guess who did give aid and ideology?
It could have been Mussolini and fascist Italy. Even Hitler admitted that
he received much inspiration from Italian fascism.
>
>
>> >Let's see. Slavic people were regarded as "Slave races" by NAZI-ideology
>> >whereas the "Aryans" were declared as being on top.
>>
>> Nazism was primarily German chauvinistic and only secondarily racist.
>> Hitler said several times that national socialism knows only Germany
>> and is not meant for export.
>
>You don't see the contradiction, do you ? If Helmut Kohl would hold a
>view of Danish people being a slave race and of Germany being in desperate
>need of "Lebensraum" in the North but tell you, that this view is not ment
>for export, what you would say to a Russian who tells you "Oh, its not ment
>for export as he says, so just keep calm." ?
>
I see no contradiction. On the contrary it was very clear that they did not
want to make the Russians nazis, that is to export the nazi ideology to them.
They rather wanted to subjugate them or rather grab some of their land to
fulfill their mad dream of Lebensraum to the East. Why won't you admit
that the Germans saw themselves as the masterrace and that their
national socialist ideology was the tool to justify this? They did want
to share this mastery with the "inferior" Non-Germans.
>
>> >I did already ask you what, in your opinion makes a
>> >"real Dane" (your words)) would violate Art. 15 (2) of the Universal
>> >Declaration of Human Rights. Just to think about an ethnic cleansing does
>> >violate the preamble, Art. 1 and 2 of the Declaration.
>>
>> According to the Danish constitution there is nothing above or beside the
>> Danish parliament.
>
>Now, it was the Danish parliament - respectively the Government on behalf
>of the parliament - who did sign the Universal Declaration as well as a
>lot of other international human rights covenants. Thus it is binding
>unless the parliament does decide to withdraw the signature. If it would,
>ethnic cleansing would still be a human rights violation, thus not a bit
>better.
>
>
>> Another thing is that if Denmark tried to bother those Germans the much
>> bigger German army may come to their aid, exactly as it did in 1848 and
>> 1864. No one would be so crazy as to try that again.
>
>But you would if you could?
No, to me such a thing would be a crime against the white race. In a new
racial world order war between members of the white race should be
regarded an abomination. E.g. the strong Anti-Slav sentiment is one of the
strong reasons why I do not like nazism.
>
>By the way: Up to now you did not tell us what makes a "real Dane".
>--
You should go to e.g. Flensburg where there are a mixed German and Danish
population and ask the people there. I am sure they would not be one moment
in doubt.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 07:41:22 PDT 1996
Article: 76300 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:59:17 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:106355 alt.revisionism:76300 soc.culture.europe:48902 soc.culture.german:88892
In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>> In article , Martin Paegert wrote:
>
>
>> Hm you want us to believe that ethnic cleansing was invented by the Nazis.
>
>I just did show that ethnic cleansing is a human rights violation and thus
>inacceptable.
In this case the human rights are not acceptable to me.
>
>
>> Take a look on countries like Sri Lanka, India, Sudan, Cyprus, Lebanon,
>> Palestine/Israel and many more, and you should be able to grasp what I
>> am talking about.
>
>I took and as I told you before I see many human rights violations
>instigated and performed by nationalists and racists. So your examples do
>show nothing else but nationalism and racism does cause trouble. "Hey,
>just have ethnic cleansing and the trouble is over" is nothing else but a
>mafia-like tactic of demolishing shops in order to make shop-owners pay
>for "security".
Phenomenas like nationalism and racialism are only the symptoms and not the
causes of ethnic conflicts that arises spontaneously. A multiethnic ethnic
society is unnatural and will therefore always produce negative phenomenas.
If you seriously want to do away nationalism and racialism you must create
homogenous societies.
>
>> I still base my understanding of the meaning of the ethnic differences
>> on the experience of history, common sense, logic and the eternal laws
>> of nature.
>
>As I told you before, ethnicity and nationality are human (social)
>categories and not those of nature. A natural law does deal with natural
>entities, not with human ones.
Humans, whether they like or not, are a part of nature and are thus
subjugated to the laws of nature.
--
Ole Kreiberg
Http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 08:11:34 PDT 1996
Article: 33781 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.media,talk.politics.european-union,uk.politics.misc,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: United Europe: will it save us?
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:38:00 +0100
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In article <326C7F80.5990@creative.net>, mj@creative.net wrote:
>
>It is perfectly legitimate for them to choose democracy over prosperity,
>and I would argue it is the right choice. It is more important to be free
>than to be an affluent consumer.
>
So true. The European Union really sucks.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
I refuse to believe in the holocaust. I do not owe the alleged victims of the
holocaust anything. Therefore I feel to think and forget whI feel free to think and forget exactly what I want.
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 08:29:32 PDT 1996
Article: 33781 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.media,talk.politics.european-union,uk.politics.misc,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: United Europe: will it save us?
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:38:00 +0100
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In article <326C7F80.5990@creative.net>, mj@creative.net wrote:
>
>It is perfectly legitimate for them to choose democracy over prosperity,
>and I would argue it is the right choice. It is more important to be free
>than to be an affluent consumer.
>
So true. The European Union really sucks.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
I refuse to believe in the holocaust. I do not owe the alleged victims of the
holocaust anything. Therefore I feel to think and forget whI feel free to think and forget exactly what I want.
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 08:41:16 PDT 1996
Article: 88907 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.media,talk.politics.european-union,uk.politics.misc,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: United Europe: will it save us?
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:38:00 +0100
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In article <326C7F80.5990@creative.net>, mj@creative.net wrote:
>
>It is perfectly legitimate for them to choose democracy over prosperity,
>and I would argue it is the right choice. It is more important to be free
>than to be an affluent consumer.
>
So true. The European Union really sucks.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
I refuse to believe in the holocaust. I do not owe the alleged victims of the
holocaust anything. Therefore I feel to think and forget whI feel free to think and forget exactly what I want.
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 09:37:21 PDT 1996
Article: 76333 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:45:19 +0100
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In article <549cgh$l52@news.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>> olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>> On 17 Oct 1996 00:43:22 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
> And the fact that there are no more Jews in Poland.
>
This does not prove that they were murdered by the Germans. Every year
dozens of people disappear without a trace in Denmark. That some individuals
dissappear is not the same as they have been murdered.
>
> And the truth is that you are a nazi.
>
The truth is that you are a slanderer who thinks that all Gentiles are more
or less the same. Nazism was krautstuff only.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
I refuse to believe in the holocaust. I do not owe the alleged victims of the
holocaust anything. Therefore I feel to think and forget whI feel free to think and forget exactly what I want.
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 09:37:22 PDT 1996
Article: 76334 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:52:46 +0100
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NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
In article <3267D667.4F59@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>A question for Ole: What do you believe happened to all the Polish Jews
>who were shipped to varions Nazi concentration camps, mainly Auschwitz,
>and gasssed to death, or worked to death, or starved to death, or the
>thousands of other Polish Jews who were rounded up by the Nazis
>(Germans) and shot; men, women, children and babies.
I do not believe that anybody were gassed. It is true that a lot of prisoners
in the German concentrationscamps died of disease and malnutrition toward
the end of the war. I have seen similiar pictures from refugee camps in
Africa. Emaciated people and a lot of corpses. I have even seen UN personal
pushing piles of bodies into massgraves by a bulldozer. However this does
not prove that they have been gassed or deliberately starved to death in
those UN refugee camps. Starvation and epidemics often accompany the chaos
created by wars.
>
>Ole, nobody can show you identity of all the millions of Jews and other
>innocents who were murdered by the Germans. You know that the bodies
>have been burned fifty years ago or before, or buried and only bones
>remain.
So how can you claim that 6 million Jews were killed? If I went to the
police and said that I knew of e.g. hundred people being killed without
being able to show the corpses and their identity, would I be taken
seriously?
>Nobody can take you by the hand, and lead you to evidence which
>you would believe. However, if you say that the Holocaust didn't happen
>the way history proves it did happen, then you are just a fool.
>
>
>
> No the only thing
>> that he has is the ravings of some German nazis.
>
>No he has much more than ravings of some German Nazis. History has more
>evidence than you can handle, Ole. Eyewitness testimony, confessions by
>the Germans and Austrians, memories of Holocaust survivors, and much
>more.
All this material is so political loaded that it makes it disqualified in
court.
>>
>> >The murderers were your nazi heroes. Does
>> >that clear it up, nazi boy?
>> >
>> I am not a nazi, and the German nazis are not my heroes. I am only
>> interested in the Truth.
>
>You are being given the truth, Ole. The burden of proof is on you. The
>Holocaust has been historically proven to have happened. If you doubt
>any part of it, you must prove that it didn't happen like history proves
>it did.
>
>I am an eyewitness, as an American soldier I entered five main Nazi
>death camps and many sub-camps. I saw a great deal of the evidence of
>Nazi cruelty with my own eyes.
Did you see any gaschambers for killing humans? Did you see any forensic
reports confirming that some of the corpses found there had died from
hydrogen cyanide poisoning? Were you able to determine what had caused
the death of those corpses you saw? I have seen pictures from these camps
too. Some of the prisoners looked healthy and relatively well-fed while
others didn't. Had those emaciated people and bodies lost their weight due
to disease or due to a deliberate German intention to kill them? Were you
able to determine that?
>
>Why should I lie about such a terrible thing?
> Why should you lie about such a terrible thing?
>
>Chuck Ferree
>
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
I refuse to believe in the holocaust. I do not owe the alleged victims of the
holocaust anything. Therefore I feel to think and forget whI feel free to think and forget exactly what I want.
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 12:12:06 PDT 1996
Article: 33793 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.french
Subject: France is a fanatic anti-racist dictatorship
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:17:39 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:33793 soc.culture.french:66480
France want to tighten anti-racism laws
The French cabinet backed a plan on 16.10.96 to tighten
anti-racism laws and increase penalties for racist statements. The
bill was drafted by Justice Minister Jacques Toubon after National
Front Leader Jean-Marie Le Pen said in August: "Yes, I believe in
racial inequality, certainly, it's obvious." Politicians and others
said Le Pen should be prosecuted for that statement under an 1881 law,
which was updated in 1972, against inciting racial hatred. Toubon said
that the law should be tightened before it can be used against
statements like Le Pen's. Under the bill, a racial statement could be
punishable by a fine of up to 300,000 francs ($60,000) and a year in
prison. If the statement is judged to be an incitement to
discrimination, hatred or violence the punishment would be 500,000
francs ($100,000) and two years in prison. Toubon said "In these
dangerous times, it is important that we put a stop to these racist
actions."
My message to the totalitarian French government and parliament:
The idea of a natural and inborn racial equality is nothing but a
political doctrine based on wishful thinking. To most people the truth
about the racial differences are so compelling obvious that the burden
of proof must lie with those that proclaim the racial equality and not
the other way round.
I base my views of the meaning of the racial differences on the
experience of history, common sense, logic and the eternal laws of
nature.
What do you think of the following slogan?
Freedom is not free
Free men are not equal
and equal men are not free
My question to the French authorities: "Have I by the above-mentioned
statements commited any thought-crimes according to your mad
Orwellian "laws"?
[follow-ups set to alt.politic.nationalism.white]
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (in Danish language)
I refuse to believe in the holocaust. Even if the holocaust did happen I
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 16:32:12 PDT 1996
Article: 76383 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:54:06 +0100
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In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>
>Mr. Kreiberg, it is not slander to state the self-evident: You are a
>holocaust denier, Nazi apologist, and a all around detestable person.
>Considering your support for Nazi ideology and neo-Nazis, as well as your
>racist beliefs, labeling you a Nazi is quite apropo.
>
I have never supported the nazi ideology. I have never advocated
dictatorship. You certainly do not have to be a nazi just because
you are a racialist. Yes I refuse to believe in the holocaust and
continue to do so as long as there are "laws" in France and Germany
that tries to supress freedom of speech and scientific research.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 22 23:08:00 PDT 1996
Article: 76430 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:26:55 +0100
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In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>
>You also want to arrest, torture and deport Danish citizens,
>because you don't like the color of their skin. You said so
>yourself, on this group, many times.
This is an outright slander. You know that I have never talked about
torturing anybody. Maybe I should try to talk with an American lawyer
about the possibilities of suing you for slander.
>Now, that we have established that you're a racist scumbag,
>and crazy as well, let's look at your claim above, namely,
>"I do not believe that anybody were gassed".
A lot of frenzy name-calling.
>
>What can one say? So you don't believe it. Fine. Everybody who
>was in the extermination centers says it happened. There are
>documents that prove it happened.
You claim that the alleged gaschambers were shown to the prisoners.
According to the established holocaust story these gaschambers were supposed
to have been secret. Even most of the Germans working there were not shown
the alleged gaschambers.
>
>So, Kreiberg, we have to contrast all this with a blank "I don't
>believe it happened", uttered by a racist swine such as yourself,
>who obviously cannot think rationally ("exploding corpses" etc).
>
>What should we do?
Try the thought police the way they do in France to dissident scientists
like Robert Faurisson. Or let the MOSSAD do what it usually does to
people who come seriously across Zionist interests.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>PS - And, do me one favor: leave out the mandatory "if you
> ever come to Denmark I'll sue you". Kinda boring already.
Hm why would I try to sue you in Denmark, when this can be done in the USA.
Isn't it by the way in the USA that you are granted huge sums of money in
compensation for the slightest damage.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Oct 24 08:19:58 PDT 1996
Article: 76641 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:18:06 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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In article <3269e4c5.16716204@news>, pgroff wrote:
>Mr. Kreiberg, it isn't just the "ravings of some German nazis" I am
>sure that if you look closely at some memorials in Poland you will see
>that they were put up by the Polish Government and the Polish people
>to remember that indeed Jews were murdered by the Nazis, clearly they
>weren't raving, nor were they Nazis.
>
And a lot of wild rumors. Even in Denmark the authorities warned people
against rumors (such rumors could create unecessary panic and other
disorder). I guess that the situation with regard to rumors must have been
the same or even worse in Poland.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Oct 24 08:19:59 PDT 1996
Article: 76642 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:26:56 +0100
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In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>I have never advocated dictatorship.
>
>Yet you enthusiastically endorse the same infringements of human rights.
I have never endorsed cancellation of the right to vote, to form political
parties and the freedom of speech. How can you say that I am in favour of
dictatorship?
>
>> You certainly do not have to be a nazi just because
>> you are a racialist.
>
>Yet you are both a Nazi and a racist.
You seem to be ignorant of what nazism really is. To you the term "nazi"
is reduced to an invective that you fling in the teeth of those with whom
you disagree.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Oct 24 08:19:59 PDT 1996
Article: 76698 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:43:26 +0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:106615 alt.revisionism:76698 soc.culture.europe:48940 soc.culture.german:89016
In article , Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>>
> I see no contradiction. On the contrary it was very clear that they did not
>want to make the Russians nazis, that is to export the nazi ideology to them.
>They rather wanted to subjugate them or rather grab some of their land to
>fulfill their mad dream of Lebensraum to the East. Why won't you admit
>that the Germans saw themselves as the masterrace and that their
>national socialist ideology was the tool to justify this? They did want
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to share this mastery with the "inferior" Non-Germans.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am sorry that I made an error here. It should of course have been:
They did _not_ want to share this mastery with the "inferior" Non-Germans.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Oct 24 09:30:36 PDT 1996
Article: 33929 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: German hegemony over Europe through the European Union
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:02:58 +0100
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In article <54iup9$fpj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Ulfbjorn wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg writes:
>
>>The truth about the racial differences is so compelling obvious that the
>>burden of proof must lie with those that proclaim the racial equality and
>
>>not the other way round.
>
>Nonsense. You haven't provided a single valid example to show that people
>of different skin colors are somehow "unequal." You cited Nigeria and
>Haiti as examples. Both countries have been plagued with dictators and
>horrible government.
Hey a country like Germany was plagued by dictatorship from 1933 to 1945.
Does that mean that the Germans became "underdeveloped" because of that.
Their country was totally smashed in 1945, and they rebuilt it in a few
decades to be one of the most advanced countries in Europe. The Germans
have it natural in their genes to built a country like Germany while the
Africans have it their genes to built countries like Haiti, Jamaica and
Uganda. You are doing the Africans a disservice by trying to make them
believe that they will ever be able to do the same as the Germans.
>The "European race" is not unfamilar with that
>phenomenon... You don't have to prove that idiotic Nigerian and Haitian
>politicians exist. I ask you to prove that skilled and talented Nigerian,
>Haitian engineers, scientists, artists, writers, usw. do not exist.
>
Sure they exist, but there are not so many of them as among the white race.
The American biology professor, Wesley C George writes in his book, The
Biology of the Race Problem which is based on research on differences
between White and Black people, that ten times as many Black people fall
in the less intelligent group as white people while six time as many
white people fall in the most intelligent group. He does not deny that there
are black people with an IQ of e.g. 160, because this is a fact, allthough
it is rarely occurs.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Thu Oct 24 09:45:41 PDT 1996
Article: 88999 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: German hegemony over Europe through the European Union
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:02:58 +0100
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In article <54iup9$fpj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Ulfbjorn wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg writes:
>
>>The truth about the racial differences is so compelling obvious that the
>>burden of proof must lie with those that proclaim the racial equality and
>
>>not the other way round.
>
>Nonsense. You haven't provided a single valid example to show that people
>of different skin colors are somehow "unequal." You cited Nigeria and
>Haiti as examples. Both countries have been plagued with dictators and
>horrible government.
Hey a country like Germany was plagued by dictatorship from 1933 to 1945.
Does that mean that the Germans became "underdeveloped" because of that.
Their country was totally smashed in 1945, and they rebuilt it in a few
decades to be one of the most advanced countries in Europe. The Germans
have it natural in their genes to built a country like Germany while the
Africans have it their genes to built countries like Haiti, Jamaica and
Uganda. You are doing the Africans a disservice by trying to make them
believe that they will ever be able to do the same as the Germans.
>The "European race" is not unfamilar with that
>phenomenon... You don't have to prove that idiotic Nigerian and Haitian
>politicians exist. I ask you to prove that skilled and talented Nigerian,
>Haitian engineers, scientists, artists, writers, usw. do not exist.
>
Sure they exist, but there are not so many of them as among the white race.
The American biology professor, Wesley C George writes in his book, The
Biology of the Race Problem which is based on research on differences
between White and Black people, that ten times as many Black people fall
in the less intelligent group as white people while six time as many
white people fall in the most intelligent group. He does not deny that there
are black people with an IQ of e.g. 160, because this is a fact, allthough
it is rarely occurs.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Oct 25 14:09:39 PDT 1996
Article: 76990 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:03:26 -0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:106761 alt.revisionism:76990 soc.culture.europe:48957 soc.culture.german:89087
In article , Holger Skok wrote:
>In article <510RoOev1a-K065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>> Humans, whether they like or not, are a part of nature and are thus
>>subjugated to the laws of nature.
>
>Mr. Kreiberg, you are clearly a completely hopeless case.
Sure because I do not share your world view.
>Your utterings
>clearly show, that you are not at all interested in serious exchanges
>of arguments
How many serious arguments do you come up with. Most of your arguments are
merely mud slinging.
> You obviously live in a parallel universe, in which every imaginable
>invention or cultural progress was made by WHITES or at least ARYANS.
Not all, but far the most.
>You employ a sufficiently vague definition of these terms to allow you
>to actually come up with "proof" for that claim.
>
>With a haughty attitude you claim that the case for genetic determinism
>is so water tight as to not need any arguments in its favour. And so you
>keep posting idiocies about a "natural law of self-preservation" as
>applying to entire ethnic groups without so much as a hint of an argument
>in favour of it.
What so idiotic about that? From time immemorial tribes and nations of
people have even fought wars for preservering their territories etc. against
other tribes and nations. Things like that go on this very day. It is
a part of human life. Nature loves variety. Help nature preserve diversity.
>Similarly, you keep repeating that mixed societies always
>produce negative phenomena, still without even something like a viable
>example to that effect.
Then give me just one example on your allegation that some good could arise
>from miscegenation and mixed societies.
If you e.g. mate two dog races, would the hybrid off-spring inherit the good
qualities from both parents? If you e.g. mate a bloodhound which has a highly
developed olfactory sense with a greyhound that has the inherent ability to
run much faster than most other dog-races but has a much more poor olfactory
sense, would the offspring then inherit both the olfactory sense of the
bloodhound and the ablility of the Greyhound to run fast? No both of these
ablilities will be diluted in the off-spring.
>
>Your racism is indeed a symptom, but let's keep quiet about what it
>is a symptom for, because the answer would not be very much of a
>compliment for you and and it would not help you either.
>The problem
>is one which cannot be dealt with other than in long personal exchanges
>between you and some educated person you trust and can develop a
>personal relationship with.
This is indeed a "good" argument to come up with. Because you are not able
to argue against me, it is not you that are lacking something. No it is me
that must be something wrong with. The almightly German state has ordered
you and all other Germans to believe that the human races do not exist or
have at least very little significance. Before May 1945 you were ordered to
believe the strict opposite and you did so. Another example of typical
German mentality: Before 1945 the Germans were ordered to believe that the
Jews were the root to all evil. If they expressed disbelieve they were sent
to Dachau or similiar places. After May 1945 the Germans were ordered to
believe in exactly the opposite. Being authoritarian people the Germans
said, Yes allmighty government what ever you say, we will believe it. We
have always done so. Because we are Germans we do not have think for
ourselves or be critical. We have our great leaders to that for us. And if
some dissident arises who refuse to believe what the Jewish eyevitnesses to
the alleged holocaust are revealing he will not be sent to Dachau, because
Dachau is today a museum. He will be sent to an ordinary prison instead. Be
a good German and do not even think about thinking for yourself. And
furthermore remember that the Verfassungsschutz-STASIS are watching you.
When Hitler ordered you on his mad "Deutsche Drang nach Osten" you happily
said "Fu"hrer befehl and wir folgen dir" and when der grosse Europa-fu"hrer
Helmuth Kohl raves about his Neuropa or a united Europe as he prefers to
call it, you happily say the same.
>In default of that, you'll keep posturing and
>trolling as indicated by your long history of postings available via
>dejanews and the Nizkor site.
Yes I keep fighting against any tendencies toward censorship. If there were
not attempts to limit the freedom of speech and scientific research I
might not have come to the internet in the first place, and I would certainly
not have been that active.
>
>Since you're so fixated on your genetic determinism though, care to
>explain how the minute genetic differences accounting for the outward
>differences of appearance that are used to differentiate between human
>"races" can account for the alleged vast behavioural differences between
>whites and non-whites?
Chimpanzees and humans share 98 per cent of the same gene pool, and it is
still very obvious that humans and chimpanzees are very different in
abilities etc.
>Please do that while keeping in mind, that the
>genetic variability throughout an all white population is larger than the
>differences accounting for skin colour.
>
Sure there are variations within the same race. Remember that division of
labour is a precondition for higher civilization. If all individuals were
on the same inherently determined level, division of labour would never have
occurred.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer on how the undesired thruth is
received: "First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third,
it is accepted as self-evident."
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Oct 26 13:02:34 PDT 1996
Article: 77165 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 22:13:22 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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Message-ID:
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In article <326f87c5.25303639@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, John Morris wrote:
>
>Listen, you idiot, the source you are disputing is your source.
>Sanning quoted the report which you are now saying is unreliable
>because it provides only an estimate.
>
You can be an idiot yourself. You are saying that the figures by me are
based on an estimate. So are all the figures mentioned in the established
historiography. The confession of Auschwitz commander Ho"ss is usually
considered as some of the best evidence of the holocaust. He said that
alltogether 3,000,000 were killed in Auschwitz. Later at the trial in Warsaw
he reduced his estimate to 1,135,000 (Source: The Rise and Fall of the third
Reich by William L Shirer).
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Oct 26 13:02:35 PDT 1996
Article: 77166 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's Lame Nazi Apologetics
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 21:22:36 +0100
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References: <3267D667.4F59@rio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>
>1) The death rate at the "work camps" was enormous long
> before the end of the war:
>
>Death rate in the "work camps", long before the end of the war
>(source: letter from Pohl to Himmler, "Trials Of War Criminals"
>(green) series, Vol. V, p. 379.
>
>In July 1942, the death rate was 8.5 percent.
>In August 1942, the death rate was 10.6 percent.
>In September 1942, the death rate was 10.2 percent.
>
I would like to take a closer look at the original source for this
allegation.
>
>4) There were huge amounts of food at the vicinity of the
> camps; it was simply not given to the inmates.
This is not true. There was general food shortage in Germany the last years
of the war. German soldiers in Denmark used to buy large packets of food
to bring with them home to Germany on leave. Danes that worked or made
business in Germany have told about the awful food situation there. Allthough
there was no starvation in Denmark still more and more food-items were
rationed toward the end of the war. It was extraordinary that there were no
starvation in Denmark, because this was the case in all of the other
countries occupied by Germany and in Germany itself.
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images
>
>They are all scanned from "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips,
>William Hodge and Company, 1949.
>
>belsen01.jpg: A Mass grave in Belsen camp.
>belsen02.jpg: A bulldozer being used to bury corpses in Belsen.
>belsen03.jpg: Emaciated corpses in Belsen.
>belsen04.jpg: Plump, overweight SS-women bury skeletal corpses in Belsen.
>belsen05.jpg: The corpse of a child is thrown into a mass grave in Belsen.
>
Yes these are pictures from february 1945 and show victims from the
big typhoid epidemic. Before the Soviets conquered Poland the concentration
camps inmates were evacuated to Germany. These prisoners overcrowded the
allready overcrowded camps there and the perfect conditions for typhoid
epidemics were created.
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images
>
>buchenwald01.jpg, buchenwald03.jpg:
>Emaciated corpses of the inmates.
>
>buchenwald04.jpg:
>German civilians living near the camp, after the American troops
>have taken them to Buchenwald to witness the horrors. Notice how
>well-dressed and well-fed they are.
Some of the prisoners are also healthy and well-fed. Only the sick prisoners
are shown.
Danish prisoners (also Jews) received foodpackages from Denmark through the
Red Cross. From them I have heard that not only the other prisoners but
also the Guards used to watch them hungrily while they ate this food.
One Danish Buchenwald camp inmate told in a radio broadcast some years ago
how he as a skilled electro mechanic was assigned to a job in a factory
outside the camp. A part of the agreement with the camp administration and
the employers were that the employers were to feed the prisoners. Where this
man worked there was no canteen for the staff, so his employer sent him
every day to a local restaurant where he got today's special billed to the
employer. How sufficient these meals were due to rationing and food shortage
he did not told about. Other prisoners were not put to work, and they thought
that the most unbearable, they experienced, was boredom.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Oct 26 14:46:26 PDT 1996
Article: 77190 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 20:57:34 +0100
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In article , Kimberley Ahlf wrote:
>
> I am relieved that racial heritage is no predictor of a person's
>character, otherwise I would be thoroughly embarrassed by the ancesstry
>I have in common with this man.
Hm Kimberley is your first name. It does not sound Danish to me. And Ahlf?
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Oct 26 14:46:27 PDT 1996
Article: 77191 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 20:34:39 +0100
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In article , Kimberley Ahlf wrote:
>
>
>It's most depressing that Denmark, the occupied nation which behaved so
>admirably during WWII in protecting its Jewish citizens from the Nazis, is
>represented here by the likes of Kreiberg.
This is a reposting:
The 50 anniversary of the of escape of the 7000 Danish Jews in
October 1943 to Sweden were celebrated by the American Jews.
According to the American Jews it was the whole Danish people and
nation that out of some kind of "heroism" saved the Jews.
As a Gentile Dane I find this embarrassing and nauseating.
When this event is mentioned it is often forgotten how much money
"heroic" Danes received for their effort. An example from the
book, October 1943 by the former anti-German resistance leader
Aage Berthelsen page 67-69 shows that a skipper received 100000
DKR (app. US$ 16000) for sailing 230 Jews to Sweden the night
between the 8th and 9th October 1943. Exactly how much this sum of
money corresponds to today after 52 years of inflation I am not
sure, but in 1943 a skilled worker in Denmark earned around 5000
DKR (app. US$ 800) per year. The skipper had bought the boat for
25000 DKR (app. US$ 4000). This means that he received 4 times the
value of the boat for a single trip over the narrow sound between
Denmark and Sweden. Because the engine of the boat was not able to
start that night a "heroic" fishing boat skipper scored further
17000 DKR (app. US$ 2600) for towing the boat to Sweden.
Beside the Jew transportations many Danes also earned well on
deliveries of war material, provisions etc to the Germans. In fact
Denmark had the highest standard of living among all the countries
in Europe involved in the war including Germany.
Concerning Sweden that received the Jews it should be mentioned
that Sweden gave the Germans permission to send their military in
transit through Sweden to Norway. When the elephants are fighting
the mice are in danger of being trampled down, and for small
neutral countries like Sweden and Denmark it was wise to be nice
to everyone and thereby hoping to get as unharmed as possible out
of the war. In Denmark 2 per cent of the population voted on the
Danish Naziparty in the elections of 1939 and 1943, and 2 percent
were affiliated with the resistance movement against the German
occupation towards the end of the war. The remaining 96 per cent
supported more or less the pragmatic neutrality policy of the
legal Danish government.
If it really was so important for the Germans to exterminate the
Jews how come that high-ranking German officials in Denmark like
Duckwitz, Best and Renthe-Fink all tried to dissuade the German
government from apprehending and deporting the Danish Jews to
camps in Central Europe. How could it be tolerated that Duckwitz
on his "own" initiative went to Sweden before the escape in order
to get the Swedish acceptance of the reception of the Danish Jews.
Why happened all German patrol boats to be in harbour when the
escape was going on? Why did not these German officials receive as
much as a reprimand from their superiors in Berlin, when it was
discovered that almost all of the Danish Jews had escaped.
I think that there are much in this story that proves that it
was not basically the plans of Germans to exterminate the Jews but
only to get rid of them through emigration or deportation.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Oct 26 16:31:39 PDT 1996
Article: 34229 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: France is a fanatic anti-racist dictatorship
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 21:04:32 +0100
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References: <54j7s7$k2s@speedy.grolier.fr>
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In article <54j7s7$k2s@speedy.grolier.fr>, Patrice Delapalme wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>(...)
>>I refuse to believe in the holocaust. Even if the holocaust did happen I
>
>For what nysterious reason, please?
First of all I had a problem by initiating this signature which meant that
the last line disappeared.
The correct text should have been:
I refuse to believe in the holocaust. Even if it did happen I
still do not owe the alleged victims anything.
It was not technically possible to gas and cremate the number of people
in the manner and within the time described in the established
historiography.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 27 11:34:40 PST 1996
Article: 77314 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:29:55 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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References: <549cgh$l52@news.enter.net> <54jaj6$rnl@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
In article <54jaj6$rnl@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, william c anderson wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>
>: Yes I refuse to believe in the holocaust and
>: continue to do so as long as there are "laws" in France and Germany
>: that tries to supress freedom of speech and scientific research.
>
>You realize that's a little nuts, don't you Ole? I mean, I agree
>with you about the laws in question, although I don't know what
>they have to do with scientific research
Are revisionists like e.g. professor Arthur Butz and professor Robert
Faurisson not scientists?
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 27 11:34:41 PST 1996
Article: 77315 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Jewish eyewitnesses
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:36:07 +0100
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The following are critical comments by mostly Jews about the credibility
of the Jewish Holocaust eyewitnesses:
"Much of personal [survivor] testimony is unreliable about
names, location or dates... What survivors speak about most is
their suffering. Samuel Gringauz, himself a survivor, had harsh
words for these personal histories. In the January 1950 issue of
Jewish Social Studies he called them "Judeocentric, logocentric
and egocentric". For him, most of the memoires were full of
'preposterous verbosity, exaggeration, dramatic effects,
dilettante philosophizing, would be lyricism, unchecked rumours,
bias and apologies"
-Raul Hilberg
Interview in Jerusalem Post, International Edition, 28th June
1986; page 8
"A certain degree of reserve is necessary in handling all this
material ... particular [survivor narratives]... the Eastern
European Jew is a natural rhetorician, speaking in flowery
similes...sometimes the imagery transcends credibility"
-Gerald Reitlinger
The Final Solution
Sphere Books, London, 1971; page 581
"If Eichmann's name was mentioned at all, it was obviously hearsay
evidence, "rumours testified to", hence without legal validity.
The testimony of all witnesses who had "seen him with their own
eyes" collapsed the moment a question was addressed to them"
-Hannah Arendt
Eichmann in Jerusalem
Penguin Books, London, 1978; page 672
"But it is true that, along with many authentic works, there have
been books or films which were only partly true, or even were
partly faked. And unfortunately, even reputable historians often
fail in their duty of care...for instance Martin Gilbert...in
Final Journey"
-Gitta Sereny
New Statesman
2nd November 1979; page 672
"A very disturbing thing has happened to journalism, to the
writing of history, and even to justice. In anything to do with
the Nazis...any attempt at detachment is considered suspect, any
degree of objectivity reprehensible...I have to battle in print
against...men like Martin Gray (For Those I Loved) who use these
appalling [Holocaust] events for self-aggrandisement...but
attacking Gray causes wrathful indignation among Holocaust
dogmatists"
-Gitta Sereny
London Review of Books
21st April 1988; page 3
"I know of no other case in which so many deviations from
procedures internationally accepted as desirable occurred. "Every
year on August 2 - the day of the uprising in Treblinka - some of
survivors used to meet in Tel Aviv. Turowski, Goldfarb and
Rosenfarb all lived in Israel, as did the witnesses who identified
Demjanjuk in September and October: Czarny, Boraks and Lindwasser.
Their testimony can be accepted only after it established that
they did not meet with the other three.
"Some doubts on the matter are justified because...the witnesses
travelled together in the same aircraft to Fort Lauderdale, where
the Fedorenko trial was held. They also stayed in the same hotel,
had meals together, but were still supposed to make fully
independent identifications. Boraks - who was not in full command
of his memory when questioned in 1987 - declared when asked about
the journey to Fort Lauderdale, that he went there by train."
-Dr. William A. Wagenaar
Identifying Ivan
Harvard University Press, 1989; page 110
"...More detailed research [into the Holocaust] however mostly
establishes only how shaky is the ground we're on; the consensus
of research data often turns out only to be the result of
everybody having uncritically copied what everybody else was
writing; the actual documentary basis on many matters is
frighteningly narrow and is in consequence easily shattered by
some new find or other; in all too documentary basis on many
matters we are still groping in total darkness. If we are to avert
being scandalously shown up, in the next few years historical
research is going to have to do all it can not only to establish
better documentary defences but broader-based ones as well"
Dr. Hans-Heinrich Wilhelm
Offene Fragen der Holocaust-Fragen
An unpublished paper delivered at a symposium at the University of
Riga in September 1988.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 27 11:34:41 PST 1996
Article: 77317 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:10:38 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 46
Message-ID:
References:
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In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
># This is an outright slander. You know that I have never
># talked about torturing anybody.
>
>What about the following? This is not torture? Arresting people,
>locking them in camps, and treating them in such a way that
>"will inspire them to leave the country as quick as possible"?
>
Listen stupid. A lot of prisoners try to escape from prisons every year
in the USA and Denmark. Does that prove that they have been tortured?
Furthermore prisoners are always discontended with being in prisons and
being in prison is even regarded a penalty. Is that because prisoners are
tortured?
>This is not torture? F**k you and the horse you rode on, you
>damned swine!
:-D Take care that you do not lose your mind completely.
>
> From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Aug 13 15:02:39 EDT 1996
> Article: 111755 of alt.revisionism
>
># Danish citizens would of course not be deported. However some
># people will lose their Danish citizenship because they no longer
># qualify ethnically. Having lost their citizenship and not been
># granted a residence permit they will have their status changed
># to illegal aliens and then treated accordingly.
>
> From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Aug 20 14:57:46 EDT 1996
> Article: 113212 of alt.revisionism
>
># However, these camps are supposed to inspire it's inmates
># to leave the country as quick as possible. Therefore they
># should of course not be too attractive.
>
>
Where exactly do I speak of torturing somebody? If the prisons were too
attractive they would lose their original intention of scaring people from
commiting criminal acts. Prisons are supposed to inspire their inmates from
doing things that make them come back.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 28 07:12:37 PST 1996
Article: 77487 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Jewish eyewitnesses
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:46:57 -0100
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References: <3273c004.63211620@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
In article <3273c004.63211620@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, John Morris wrote:
>In , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>> The following are critical comments by mostly Jews about the credibility
>>of the Jewish Holocaust eyewitnesses:
>
>[snip]
>
>> "If Eichmann's name was mentioned at all, it was obviously hearsay
>> evidence, "rumours testified to", hence without legal validity.
>> The testimony of all witnesses who had "seen him with their own
>> eyes" collapsed the moment a question was addressed to them"
>>
>> -Hannah Arendt
>> Eichmann in Jerusalem
>> Penguin Books, London, 1978; page 672
>
>This is the second time I have seen this quote posted to
>alt.revisonism and the second time I have tried, without success, to
>find it.
>
>While I have no doubt that Arendt wrote these words somewhere in
>_Eichmann_, I have yet to find them.
There is nothing strange in that. This is because I made a minor mistake.
It was on page 208. Thank you for correcting my error.
>
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 28 07:12:38 PST 1996
Article: 77488 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:30:26 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 31
Message-ID:
References:
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In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
># Listen stupid. A lot of prisoners try to escape from prisons
># every year in the USA and Denmark. Does that prove that they
># have been tortured?
>
>Listen, you miserable Nazi ape. Rounding up people, locking
>them in camps, and holding them in conditions that, as
>you elegantly stated "will inspire them to leave the
>country as quick as possible" - and all this because of
>the color of their skin, or some other physical criterion -
>is most certainly torture.
Are you trying to tell us that it is torture to be locked up in a prison?
>Every rational person will
>agree to that.
>
>One can only hope that these potential victims are
>arming themselves,
I am sorry, arming themselves is not an option. Even with the present strict
Danish gunlaws it is practically impossible for anyone outside the police
and the military to be legally in possesion of firearms. These laws are
today enforced very rigorously. Therefore Edeiken's nonsens about armed
vigilantes would not be an option. Anyway why trying to create a
Beirut-Sarejevo situation when this is not necessary.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 28 19:24:22 PST 1996
Article: 77586 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:28:22 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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Message-ID:
References: <550fts$bog@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
In article <550fts$bog@juliana.sprynet.com>, Miloslav Bilik wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>Are revisionists like e.g. professor Arthur Butz and professor Robert
>>Faurisson not scientists?
>
>I don't know very well Butz (speciality: computing),
You mean that his specialty is computing like the holocaust scholar
of alt.revisionism, Daniel Keren. As far as I know Butz has a Ph.D. in
electronic egineering.
>but for Faurisson
>(speciality: poetry) it's clearly no.
Poetry. Another of the "holocaust scholars of alt.revisionism, John Morris
has a M.A. in English, as far as I know.
>He's known since the 50's as an
>antisemitic and fascist.
Do you have the slightest evidence for this allegation? As far as I know
he is quite unpolitical. He himself claims that he is rather left-winged
than right-winged.
>No neutrality, even a bit, to expect from
>him. No training in history matters.
>
>Is Butz fired ?
>
No because the USA in contrary to Germany and France respect the freedom of
speech.
>Faurisson is still a teacher with all the pecuniary advantages of his
>grade. Simply, he teaches with telemate tools, for the impeached
>students.
He has been fired as a professor at the Universtity of Lyon because of
his political uncorrect views of the holocaust. Furthermore he has been
"convicted" several times for "violating" the crazy French anti-revisionist
"laws".
>
>Why this question ? Are you German or French ?
>
No, but I fear that the French and the Germans will try to bully the
government of my country through European Union into adopting their
crazy anti-revisionist legislation.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Oct 30 16:56:05 PST 1996
Article: 77839 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Denmark during WW2
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:15:51 +0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 59
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References:
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In article , Kimberley Ahlf wrote:
>
>
>On Sat, 26 Oct 1996, Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
>
>The article you sent to me via e-mail attempting to debunk Danish
>'heroism' during WWII was very interesting. You should post it here on
>alt.revisionism for all to see (if you have already, I apollogize for
>missing it.)
I have done that, and I have reposted the following:
Denmark during WW2
The situation in Denmark was quite untypical in comparison to
other countries occupied by Germany. This was however not so much
due to the Germans, but rather because of fact that the legal
Danish Government did not chicken out and run away such as the
governments of e.g. Norway and Holland. After the legal
governments had left these two countries and thereby left the
populations at pleasure of the Germans, it was possible to install
German puppet governments such as the Quisling government in
Norway. In Denmark the legal and democratic elected government was
in charge, and the country remained formally neutral. There was
even a neutral Danish army and navy existing side by side with the
German.
It is not fair to describe these politicians as nazi-
collaborators, because the Germans did not interfere with internal
Danish affairs that had no consequence for the safety of the
German army. Germany had only occupied Denmark because of military
strategical reasons, the same way that other parts of the then
Danish kingdom such as the Faroe Islands and Iceland were occupied
by the English and the Americans. It is therefore not correct
maintain that Denmark was nazi-occupied. It was only occupied by
the German army. No national socialist ideology or other features
were enforced. E.g. therefore the Danish Jews never had to wear
Jew stars.
Before the election in the spring of 1943, the Germans had asked
the voters to vote for the Danish nazi-party, while the resistance
wanted the voters to vote blank or stay at home. However only 2
per cent voted for the nazi-party and only 2 voted blank. A poll
of 89,5 per cent was recorded, which is the highest ever. 96 per
cent of the population voted for the "stay out of trouble" policy
of the government. After the war the voters again elected the same
political parties, and Wilhelm Buhl, who was prime minister a
period during the war, was prime minister again. Everything were
legal and according to the constitution. If the people had been
very dissatisfied with the Government, it had a perfect
opportunity to express it in these elections.
I myself was not born during WW2, but I am sure that I would
have been among the above-mentioned 96 per cent, who supported the
legal and constitutional government and stayed out of trouble,
such as my parents and grandparents did.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Oct 30 20:06:34 PST 1996
Article: 77867 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE FATE OF THE POLISH JEWS DURING WW2
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:35:09 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 17
Message-ID:
References: <553btv$63v@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
In article <553btv$63v@news.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>> olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>> I am sorry, arming themselves is not an option. Even with the present strict
>> Danish gunlaws it is practically impossible for anyone outside the police
>> and the military to be legally in possesion of firearms. These laws are
>> today enforced very rigorously. Therefore Edeiken's nonsens about armed
>> vigilantes would not be an option. Anyway why trying to create a
>> Beirut-Sarejevo situation when this is not necessary.
>
> Sorry nazi boy. That was your idea. You're stuck with it.
>
I have never suggested vigilantes. Who need a bunch of clowns and
amateurs. Furthermore I am not a nazi and I have never been.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Nov 1 09:09:57 PST 1996
Article: 78068 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark during WW2
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:30:02 +0100
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
This is an excerpt from the FAQ to the Scandinavian newsgroup
soc.culture.nordic and represent to political correct Danish view of
Denmark during WW2:
3.3.3 Denmark during world war II
This section will probably get more material. Actually, this is one of the
regular topics of discussion in the group. But few have yet had energy
enough to write and propose a text for the faq.
From: Stan Brown
Subject: Yellow Stars (was Re: Denmark during WW2)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:03:02 -0400
> I also thought that Jews were required to wear stars, but that
> the King himself put on a star, as did many others, and therefore
> that the star identification system of the Nazis failed?
On page 14 of Queen in Denmark by Anne Wolden-RĮthinge (Gyldendal, 1989,
ISBN 87-01-08622-7 and 87-01-08623-5), HM Queen Margrethe II says:
"One of the stories one often hears about the Occupation, and
which I persist in denying each time I hear it, is the story about
Christian X wearing the yellow star of David as a demonstration
during the Occupation. It is a beautiful and symbolic story, but
it is not true. I do not mind it existing or being told, but I
will not support a myth, even a good one, when I know it isn't
true, it would be dishonest. But the moral behind the story is a
far better one for Denmark than if the King had worn the star. The
fact of the matter is that the Germans never did dare insist that
Danish Jews wear the yellow star. This is a credit to Denmark
which our country has cause to be proud of: I think this is an
important fact to remember. The myth about the King wearing the
star of David, well, I can imagine that this could have originated
from a typical remark by a Copenhagen errand boy on his bicycle:
'If they try to enforce the yellow star here, the King will be the
first to wear it!' -- I don't know whether this was the actual
remark, but I imagine it could have been how the myth started. It
is certainly a possible explanation I offer whenever I am asked.
To me, the truth is an even greater honour for our country than
the myth."
From: Henrik Ernoe
Subject: Re: Denmark during WW2
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:14:42 +0100
> If the Germans were mere occupiers, why did
> they sanction the destruction of the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen?
First of all, the bombing of tivoli was a "Schalburgtage" committed by
Danish Nazies not but the Germans, and it happenened after august 43, were
the Danish government demissioned and the "peaceful" occupation and
collaboration ended.
> But they did they effectively steal all of the Danish gold
> reserves to finance their own war effort and bankrupt the
> Danish treasury?
The germans did not steal the Danish gold reserves. The base for this story
is the system with "clearing-accounts" in the National bank. The system
worked as follows: When the German wanted to "buy" butter, bacon, guns, or
whatever in DK, they paid with vouchers which the sellers would take to
national bank to get their money. The Danish National bank then paid from
the "clearing-account", which was then supposed to be repaid by the Germans,
this however never happened (the account still amounts to several billions
in 1996).
That the Germans plundered DK this way is true, that they stole the gold
reserves is not!
A lot of the stories are inaccurate or untrue and tend to polish the Danish
image, which in view of the Governments acts from April 9th 1940 to 29
August 1943 is deeply tarnished by a policy of collaboration with Nazi
Germany.
There are things to proud of in Danish WWII history but the policy of the
government and political establishment until 43 is not one of them.
It should never be forgotten that until 29 August 1943 the Danish government
did all it could to hinder sabotage and other acts of resistance. And the
greatest danger to the resistence was the Danish police not the Gestapo!
When agents (Danes) from from the british SOE were parachuted into DK, it
was the Danish police that hunted them down and murdered Rottb÷ll and his
comrades!
What saved our honor as a nation was the acts of a few people defying not
only the Germans but also the Danish King, government and all the lawful
authorities.
--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk

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