I think it's less setting himself up for 2024 and more setting himself up as the leader of the Trump opposition when Trump loses and the backlash comes.

It's one thing to oppose policy, vote against leadership, even vote for impeachment, in order to stake out a tenable position once the populist is on the outs. It's another thing to turn your back on the party itself.

Worked out OK for Ron Paul

Well Ron went back to delivering babies for eight years after his LP run. When he did run again, he was opposed in the primary by someone backed by the leadership. But by then he had a lock on his district having delivered half his constituents.

I think it's less setting himself up for 2024 and more setting himself up as the leader of the Trump opposition when Trump loses and the backlash comes.

It's one thing to oppose policy, vote against leadership, even vote for impeachment, in order to stake out a tenable position once the populist is on the outs. It's another thing to turn your back on the party itself.

Worked out OK for Ron Paul

Well Ron went back to delivering babies for eight years after his LP run. When he did run again, he was opposed in the primary by someone backed by the leadership. But by then he had a lock on his district having delivered half his constituents.

I think it's less setting himself up for 2024 and more setting himself up as the leader of the Trump opposition when Trump loses and the backlash comes.

It's one thing to oppose policy, vote against leadership, even vote for impeachment, in order to stake out a tenable position once the populist is on the outs. It's another thing to turn your back on the party itself.

Worked out OK for Ron Paul

Well Ron went back to delivering babies for eight years after his LP run. When he did run again, he was opposed in the primary by someone backed by the leadership. But by then he had a lock on his district having delivered half his constituents.

Ah yes. The 8 year old vote. Considerable voting bloc there.

I was thinking of the parents. Many of whom themselves were brought into this world by the good doctor.

I think it's less setting himself up for 2024 and more setting himself up as the leader of the Trump opposition when Trump loses and the backlash comes.

It's one thing to oppose policy, vote against leadership, even vote for impeachment, in order to stake out a tenable position once the populist is on the outs. It's another thing to turn your back on the party itself. I think he's set the bridge to the GOP on fire.

The man and the party are the same thing right now. That won't last forever. If Team Red ever finds some principles again, Amash might well want back in and might well be welcomed back in.

Or if there is some inter-party war that splits the GOP after Trump (happened to the Dems in 2016 and the GOP in 2008, and because it's Trump the civil war will should be YUGE), perhaps Amash can re-form a more libertarian-friendly GOP from the ashes. That would be the most positive, maybe-plausible* outcome that I can see.

*I say maybe-plausible because it all depends on how much of a reckoning the current crop of Trumpublicans will face. Right now, I think the Trumps proper and a handful of inner circle cronies will skate, and the castoffs like Sessions and Graham will probably face career/electorate consequences. But the range is everything from "They All Go To Jail" to "Permanent Oligarchy and All Opponents Go To Jail" and the 2020 general will do a lot to narrow that range...

From my POV the Trumpkins are the new Religious Right. From 1979 through 2008 the agenda of the RR was the biggest liability of the Republicans. What was worse, they were considered "the base" and conventional wisdom insisted they had to be pandered to. On the plus side, I don't think the Trumpkins have the staying power of the RR. It's a cult of personality thing. They don't have generations of church goers to organize around. I don't think co-opting the Tea Party, CPAC, and other conservative institutions is gelling for them. The Clown in Chief is the only thing holding it together. Never the less, I think it's going to be very hard for anyone, on the left or right, to push a more liberal immigration and/or trade policy at the national level for at least the next several years.

From my POV the Trumpkins are the new Religious Right. From 1979 through 2008 the agenda of the RR was the biggest liability of the Republicans. What was worse, they were considered "the base" and conventional wisdom insisted they had to be pandered to. On the plus side, I don't think the Trumpkins have the staying power of the RR. It's a cult of personality thing. They don't have generations of church goers to organize around. I don't think co-opting the Tea Party, CPAC, and other conservative institutions is gelling for them. The Clown in Chief is the only thing holding it together. Never the less, I think it's going to be very hard for anyone, on the left or right, to push a more liberal immigration and/or trade policy at the national level for at least the next several years.

It's the old Religious Right who still see Trump as a means to an end. They've pretty much driven out every economic conservative from the Republican Party now and are shooting for becoming the American Taliban. After he loses or whenever he leaves office, Trump will pick up Limbaugh's mantle, except he'll do it on television.

It's the old Religious Right who still see Trump as a means to an end. They've pretty much driven out every economic conservative from the Republican Party now and are shooting for becoming the American Taliban. After he loses or whenever he leaves office, Trump will pick up Limbaugh's mantle, except he'll do it on television.

The Religious Right didn't care about immigration or trade. They were all about abortion, sex education, prayer in school, teh gay menace, etc. What ends could Trump possibly deliver to them? This is a different group. I've no doubt Trump will be a media presence out of office, but he has a completely different program from Limbaugh.

All populists meet the same end and Trump will be no different. And when he falls, he's taking the GOP down with him. They've got four more years max and then team Red will be in chaos. And team Blue is going to take advantage of that and go hard left. Nationalized Health Care, Nationalized Education, Nationalized every damned thing until we can't sell our bonds anymore and the economy collapses.

I really can't see any other possibility. Though I truly would love to see Amash ride in as the savior of the GOP and the Republic. But I don't see that as a possibility. I mean if he can't even get your vote...

It's the old Religious Right who still see Trump as a means to an end. They've pretty much driven out every economic conservative from the Republican Party now and are shooting for becoming the American Taliban. After he loses or whenever he leaves office, Trump will pick up Limbaugh's mantle, except he'll do it on television.

The Religious Right didn't care about immigration or trade. They were all about abortion, sex education, prayer in school, teh gay menace, etc. What ends could Trump possibly deliver to them? This is a different group. I've no doubt Trump will be a media presence out of office, but he has a completely different program from Limbaugh.

All populists meet the same end and Trump will be no different. And when he falls, he's taking the GOP down with him. They've got four more years max and then team Red will be in chaos. And team Blue is going to take advantage of that and go hard left. Nationalized Health Care, Nationalized Education, Nationalized every damned thing until we can't sell our bonds anymore and the economy collapses.

I really can't see any other possibility. Though I truly would love to see Amash ride in as the savior of the GOP and the Republic. But I don't see that as a possibility. I mean if he can't even get your vote...

We need to put out the grease fire before holding the household budget meeting.

It's the old Religious Right who still see Trump as a means to an end. They've pretty much driven out every economic conservative from the Republican Party now and are shooting for becoming the American Taliban. After he loses or whenever he leaves office, Trump will pick up Limbaugh's mantle, except he'll do it on television.

The Religious Right didn't care about immigration or trade. They were all about abortion, sex education, prayer in school, teh gay menace, etc. What ends could Trump possibly deliver to them? This is a different group. I've no doubt Trump will be a media presence out of office, but he has a completely different program from Limbaugh.

All populists meet the same end and Trump will be no different. And when he falls, he's taking the GOP down with him. They've got four more years max and then team Red will be in chaos. And team Blue is going to take advantage of that and go hard left. Nationalized Health Care, Nationalized Education, Nationalized every damned thing until we can't sell our bonds anymore and the economy collapses.

I really can't see any other possibility. Though I truly would love to see Amash ride in as the savior of the GOP and the Republic. But I don't see that as a possibility. I mean if he can't even get your vote...

We need to put out the grease fire before holding the household budget meeting.

It's the old Religious Right who still see Trump as a means to an end. They've pretty much driven out every economic conservative from the Republican Party now and are shooting for becoming the American Taliban. After he loses or whenever he leaves office, Trump will pick up Limbaugh's mantle, except he'll do it on television.

The Religious Right didn't care about immigration or trade. They were all about abortion, sex education, prayer in school, teh gay menace, etc. What ends could Trump possibly deliver to them? This is a different group. I've no doubt Trump will be a media presence out of office, but he has a completely different program from Limbaugh.

All populists meet the same end and Trump will be no different. And when he falls, he's taking the GOP down with him. They've got four more years max and then team Red will be in chaos. And team Blue is going to take advantage of that and go hard left. Nationalized Health Care, Nationalized Education, Nationalized every damned thing until we can't sell our bonds anymore and the economy collapses.

I really can't see any other possibility. Though I truly would love to see Amash ride in as the savior of the GOP and the Republic. But I don't see that as a possibility. I mean if he can't even get your vote...

We need to put out the grease fire before holding the household budget meeting.

What the fuck does that even mean?
Oh wait. Forget I said asked.

All I mean is that Trump is a net negative from many angles, and his defeat is more of a priority to me than the way in which we rebuild after the disaster that was the last four years, in terms of debt, liberties, etc. I hope that there's a place at the table for limited government ideals in the post-Trump America, perhaps through a 2024 Amash ticket (via a reformed GOP, if we've learned anything from the past 50 years it's that the system is rigged for two parties and that's not going to change by Nov), but there's a national emergency living at 1600 and triage is a thing.

It's the old Religious Right who still see Trump as a means to an end. They've pretty much driven out every economic conservative from the Republican Party now and are shooting for becoming the American Taliban. After he loses or whenever he leaves office, Trump will pick up Limbaugh's mantle, except he'll do it on television.

The Religious Right didn't care about immigration or trade. They were all about abortion, sex education, prayer in school, teh gay menace, etc. What ends could Trump possibly deliver to them? This is a different group. I've no doubt Trump will be a media presence out of office, but he has a completely different program from Limbaugh.

All populists meet the same end and Trump will be no different. And when he falls, he's taking the GOP down with him. They've got four more years max and then team Red will be in chaos. And team Blue is going to take advantage of that and go hard left. Nationalized Health Care, Nationalized Education, Nationalized every damned thing until we can't sell our bonds anymore and the economy collapses.

I really can't see any other possibility. Though I truly would love to see Amash ride in as the savior of the GOP and the Republic. But I don't see that as a possibility. I mean if he can't even get your vote...

We need to put out the grease fire before holding the household budget meeting.

What the fuck does that even mean?
Oh wait. Forget I said asked.

All I mean is that Trump is a net negative from many angles, and his defeat is more of a priority to me than the way in which we rebuild after the disaster that was the last four years, in terms of debt, liberties, etc. I hope that there's a place at the table for limited government ideals in the post-Trump America, perhaps through a 2024 Amash ticket (via a reformed GOP, if we've learned anything from the past 50 years it's that the system is rigged for two parties and that's not going to change by Nov), but there's a national emergency living at 1600 and triage is a thing.

You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Exploding government is the raging fire, everything else is small potatoes next to that and defeating Trump does fuck all to deal with that.

It's the old Religious Right who still see Trump as a means to an end. They've pretty much driven out every economic conservative from the Republican Party now and are shooting for becoming the American Taliban. After he loses or whenever he leaves office, Trump will pick up Limbaugh's mantle, except he'll do it on television.

The Religious Right didn't care about immigration or trade. They were all about abortion, sex education, prayer in school, teh gay menace, etc. What ends could Trump possibly deliver to them? This is a different group. I've no doubt Trump will be a media presence out of office, but he has a completely different program from Limbaugh.

All populists meet the same end and Trump will be no different. And when he falls, he's taking the GOP down with him. They've got four more years max and then team Red will be in chaos. And team Blue is going to take advantage of that and go hard left. Nationalized Health Care, Nationalized Education, Nationalized every damned thing until we can't sell our bonds anymore and the economy collapses.

I really can't see any other possibility. Though I truly would love to see Amash ride in as the savior of the GOP and the Republic. But I don't see that as a possibility. I mean if he can't even get your vote...

We need to put out the grease fire before holding the household budget meeting.

What the fuck does that even mean?
Oh wait. Forget I said asked.

All I mean is that Trump is a net negative from many angles, and his defeat is more of a priority to me than the way in which we rebuild after the disaster that was the last four years, in terms of debt, liberties, etc. I hope that there's a place at the table for limited government ideals in the post-Trump America, perhaps through a 2024 Amash ticket (via a reformed GOP, if we've learned anything from the past 50 years it's that the system is rigged for two parties and that's not going to change by Nov), but there's a national emergency living at 1600 and triage is a thing.

You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Exploding government is the raging fire, everything else is small potatoes next to that and defeating Trump does fuck all to deal with that.

[What ends could Trump possibly deliver to them? This is a different group. I've no doubt Trump will be a media presence out of office, but he has a completely different program from Limbaugh.

Judges. And making them feel like they're good to push around non-Christians again without worrying about people pointing out they're being bad people. You realize that evangelicals and old white people are the only populations he's net positive with right now, right?

"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

[What ends could Trump possibly deliver to them? This is a different group. I've no doubt Trump will be a media presence out of office, but he has a completely different program from Limbaugh.

Judges. And making them feel like they're good to push around non-Christians again without worrying about people pointing out they're being bad people. You realize that evangelicals and old white people are the only populations he's net positive with right now, right?

No, I hadn't sifted his supporters that finely, but I'll take your word for it. I don't see the threat to non-Christians from his judicial appointments that you do. For the most part I'm quite pleased with them. To the extent I'm concerned, it is over deference to law enforcement.

I think his reasoning for not being a candidate is good in that now is really not a time anybody cares to listen to an outsider or a small-government type or anyone saying "Hey, do less!" to authority. What's baffling to me is that very little has changed about the landscape since he announced his campaign. What made it seem like a good idea then but a bad idea now?

I'm finding I'm quite irritated with him about all this. Like he just went, "Psych! Thanks for getting all excited, though!"

My assumption is that he said he was exploring a run, and then all the relevant people he'd have wanted to appeal to immediately let him know that they weren't going to support him. So then he had to back out.