Fat American Women = Dating Disparity

There is no doubt the obesity epidemic in the U.S. tilts the dating playing field in favor of those women who manage to keep their figures. The growing bloat of half the female population guarantees that slender women are more in demand than ever, and I believe this is a major contributing factor to the runaway egos and entitlement complexes of American women in general.

To see how this might be so, three premises need to be examined.

1. Does obesity handicap the dating prospects of afflicted women more than it does afflicted men?

Since American men are getting fatter at about the same rate as American women it’s reasonable to ask if this neck and neck race to the fattest helps keep the dating market balanced and the prospects for finding love equal between the sexes. The answer is no. Men are much more visually driven than women when judging the opposite sex for mate worthiness and rolls of fertility-concealing blubber that disfigure a woman’s natural hourglass shape and sexually arousing appearance will harm her attractiveness to men a lot worse than being overweight will harm a man’s attractiveness to women.

This is a simple fact of life. A rich or smart or funny guy who is 30 pounds overweight will have an easier time in the dating market than a kind and sweet and personable woman overweight by the same amount. Guys have many more compensatory qualities they can bring to the table to neutralize the disadvantage of being fat, whereas fat women, no matter how well cultivated their other attributes, cannot win over the men they want without lowering their standards to the basement or accepting a life of constant pump and dumps from players on the prowl for easy noncommital sex.

Furthermore, it is a myth that fat guys, through the power of their expanding guts, magically discover the appeal of fat chicks. The fat guys you see hooking up with fat chicks do so BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. The truth is that fat guys lust after hot slender babes just as much as thin guys do.

2. Does the obesity epidemic directly improve the dating prospects of women who stay in shape?

Given that fat girls have poor dating prospects even among fat guys, and that almost all guys are attracted to thin girls (the tiny population of fatty fucking fetishists to the contrary notwithstanding), the remaining thin girls will see their sexual market value skyrocket. This smaller pool of attractive women means that each hot chick can date up higher than she would have otherwise.

A thin girl whose looks are magnified in contrast to the fat chicks around her and who is pursued by all the men will command a much higher price — and a bigger sense of self-worth — than a thin girl in a roomful of other thin girls who is pursued by a fraction of the available men who must divide their attention between multiple targets.

In the former scenario, it will not take the thin girl long to perceive her inflated market value and act accordingly. A monstrous bitch shield ensues.

This is why the hot girl with a fat friend will subconsciously ENABLE HER FAT FRIEND’S WEIGHT PROBLEM, and why the fat girl will try to drag her hot friend into the bottom of the Ben and Jerry’s pint with her. It is against the genetic interests of both of them to encourage female competition. They are in it to win it, just like the rest of us.

3. Do the numbers justify a connection between obesity and typical American woman attitudes?

Let’s check the numbers. First, I’ll show through the illuminating power of my handy charts the ideal attractive weight for women. (I’ve used the 1959 Met Life insurance tables for this analysis as they more accurately reflect optimum weights than recent tables which have had to adjust upwards to account for American “grade inflation”.)

Categories

Ideal Weight: BMI 17.6 – 21. 99% of men find women in this range to be hot.

Maximum Healthy Weight: BMI 25. The upper limit of what the medical establishment classifies as healthy weight. (Note that “healthy” and “aesthetically pleasing to men” are not necessarily the same.) 30% of men will find women over the ideal weight but within the healthy weight sexually attractive. The other 70% will think they are chubby, but still bangable if the effort required to close the deal is not too great.

Overweight: BMI 25.1 – 30. The weight at which a woman becomes officially fat. Less than 10% of men will find women in this range sexually attractive. Men who can get slender girls will not even look twice at women in this group.

Obesity… and Beyond!: BMI 30+. Over 98% of men will be actively repulsed by these women.

Now let’s look at the demographics. According to the 2000 U.S. Census, there are approximately 40 million American women between the ages of 20 and 39 (a range which roughly matches a woman’s fertile years and maximum dating marketability). Using my handy chart above, we establish a threshold of BMI 25 as the point at which a woman takes a non-trivial hit to her sexual worth. As her BMI steadily increases, more and more men will regard her with cold asexual indifference culminating in outright revulsion. An American Medical Association study classified 52% of all women between the ages of 20 and 39 as overweight or obese with a BMI of 25 or higher. (The CDC also has similar studies on obesity.)

That’s HALF of all women in the prime dating years who have damaged or even completely trashed their sexual appeal to men through sloth and gluttony. They have made their search for love unnecessarily harder by their choices.

There are 20 million American women at a healthy weight competing for the attentions of 40 million men in the same age bracket. Even this lopsided number doesn’t tell the whole story. Of those 20 million women, a smaller number are at the ideal sexual attractiveness weight of BMI 17.6 to 21, given that the upper bound of healthy weight is BMI 25. The ideal attractive BMI is about half the total healthy BMI, so the number of slender babes that are maximally attractive to the vast majority of men is really in the neighborhood of 10 million. Remember that this analysis does not factor in facial ugliness which would surely whittle away at the number of attractive women further.

Finally, we must stipulate that the tendency of women as they age to date increasingly older men than themselves means that the figure of 40 million men is actually too low. Extending the dating market of men to age 50 adds another 20 million to their total number. Controlling for marriage makes no difference because the ratio of single men to single women remains the same.

This brings us to the final tally of potentially 60 million men hotly pursuing 10 million women. That’s a 6 to 1 dating ratio. Talk about a stacked deck.

If you want to know why American women have such unrealistic expectations, ridiculously out-of-sync standards, neurotically overblown egos, schizophrenic flakiness, and chronic selfishness —
it’s all in the numbers.
the fat, porky, tubby numbers.

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175 Responses

Great Post
A few thoughts:
Fist, a few basics about BMI:
BMI is not perfect, but a much better indication for women than for men. First, muscular persons will have somewhat highter BMI (2-3 points). So in general, because men are more muscular than women a 27 BMI men in reality is the equivalent of a 24 BMI women. Another important issue is height, which is often underestimated. BMI overstates the weight of tall persons and understaes the weight of short persons. So a 26 BMI 188cm male is in reality thinner than a 24 BMI 165cm male. The media now idealizes rail thin women, but let’s not forget that the fashion industry is dominated by pederast fashion desigers and a models job is to enhance the clothes, so I honestly believe that a lot of men actually desire the 22 to 26 BMI girls, with their voluptuous breasts and ample fertile behinds. Let’s norget that women who are too thin (below 17 BMI) stop menstruating. I agree however with Roissy that women with BMI 27 and above suffer a massive depreciation of their beauty. I disagree with Roissy’s age range: a woman’s marriageable years are between 14 to 27, not 20-40, and although women up to 40 stay highly fuckeable, there are not marriage material (a lot of women have already have problems getting pregnant and giving birth in their early thirties).

Many women become overweight after getting married, and especially after having children, at which point they’re out of the dating market. It is likely that the percentage of overweight single women is lower.

14 is too young. Sex is usually incredibly painful (I know from experience), and the hips / uterus / hormonal balance are not not appropriate at that age for childbearing. The younger the girl is, the more bone density loss she experiences. Also teenage mothers are at significantly higher risk for several complications of pregnancy including multiple gestations, premature labor, high blood pressure, preeclampsia, and anemia. Right now at 23 I feel a lot more ready, physically healthier and stronger in a lot of ways than I was as a stressed out and frail teenager.

“rail thin women bordering on a skeleton”

This body type looks great with clothes on, and looks awful with clothes off. It also photographs incredibly well, because the camera tends to make a person look 15 pounds heavier, so the anorexically thin women make great models. In person, women with some fertility fat look better than the incredibly thin women.

I do agree that being thin dramatically increases a woman’s odds in the market. People seem to be genuinely surprised these days by a woman who is thin and has a good personality.

And I definitely am more attracted to women that have some of that fertility fat, but thats not “overweight” in any sense.

“People seem to be genuinely surprised these days by a woman who is thin and has a good personality.”

In college we had this one friend who was very pretty and had guys always coming up to her. She had always been good looking and had never developed a personality. We called her “Cardboard Kat”, because thats what she was like – a cardboard cut out of a person.

Girls aged 15 and above have no problems at all childbearing. Girls in the 11 to 13 years, and there you are right, are too young for childbearing and will have lots of problem giving birth. The biggest problem is that the wall between the vagina and anus can break and leave them crippled for the rest of their lifes. But this doesn’t apply to high school aged girls, who have easy pregancies and very healthy babies. Biologicaly speaking, the best years for childbearing are probably around 16 to 23 for women. When I was in HS and had sex with HS girls they enjoyed it and didn’t experience pain, not even the one which was supposed to be a virgin.

A pregnancy for a 16-year old is actually just as risky as it is for a 40-year old, believe it or not (they are both catalogued as high-risk pregnancies), but it usually has to do with mother’s prenatal care, emotional maturity, and care of the infant.

Having said that bit of nerdiness, this should be filed under “sad but too true.”

People seem to be genuinely surprised these days by a woman who is thin and has a good personality.

I work with a girl like that. She’s nice as anything, 25 years old, about an 8.5 in looks, and has been single in over two years, though not for lack of trying or due to unrealistic standards. I can’t figure that one out.

“But this doesn’t apply to high school aged girls, who have easy pregancies and very healthy babies. Biologicaly speaking, the best years for childbearing are probably around 16 to 23 for women. When I was in HS and had sex with HS girls they enjoyed it and didn’t experience pain, not even the one which was supposed to be a virgin.”

It may be that Asian women become physically developed later due to the neotenic traits selected for by Asian men. Sex was definitely extremely painful in high school 9 times out of 10. Also, the bone density loss does not show up until later in life for teenage mothers, so while she might be fine at the time, osteoporosis would show up when she hits her 30’s and 40’s.

“Accumulating data has shown that bone loss is more significant in pregnant, growing adolescent girls when compared with pregnant, adult women.”

The reason for that is this:

“Estrogen hastens the closing of growth plates in long bones (arms and legs) thus a female has a shorter growth period. Girls usually stop growing by 18 years while males continue to grow till 21 years.”

If you don’t care enough about your long-term prospects with a woman and only care about her ability to cook babies in the oven, then I suppose 14-17 year old women would appeal to you. But teenage pregnancy does screw a woman over in numerous ways, and science has backed this. You can cite “older” times, but in those days women also often died in childbirth, from infections and from various pregnancy complications, and men also died young from diseases and tended to die violently. It wasn’t exactly a healthy time to be for anyone.

Just 10 million? Good lord, that’s unbelievable. I’m having a hard time coping with the fact that 50 percent of women in my age range are overweight. The thyroid problem cases aside, why are they doing this to themselves??? Get outside, put down the ice cream and enjoy your prime, ladies.

16 year old women are not high risk births at all. If they are categorized that way that’s political BS. Ask any doctor who has ever worked in a poorer country where it’s common. About the growth thing, pretty much all women stop growing at around 15 and men at 17. If anything early pregancy or taking the pill can make girls shorter before the age of 15, so girls shouldn´’t really take the pill or get pregant before 15, agreed on that. Honestly I think the Osteoporosis part is BS, because osteoporosis is caused by hormones (genetic) and lack of proper nutrition. There are however strong links between breast cancer and late or zero childbearing. If anything, babies from middteen girls have slightly lower weights, that’s all. However, if you start looking at babies born by mothers aged 30 and above, you can find a lot of serious inconveniences: autism, down syndrome, congenital misformations, crippled babies and so on.

“Honestly I think the Osteoporosis part is BS, because osteoporosis is caused by hormones (genetic) and lack of proper nutrition. There are however strong links between breast cancer and late or zero childbearing. If anything, babies from middteen girls have slightly lower weights, that’s all.”

…new research published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (12/03) shows that young maternal age may have effect the body’s ability to absorb calcium and solidify healthy bones, thereby increasing the risk of osteoporosis.

Researchers from the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Md., designed a study to investigate the efficiency of calcium absorption and changes in urinary calcium and hormone concentrations in girls. They studied a large group of girls aged thirteen to eighteen to determine how much of the calcium they took in food or as supplements was actually absorbed. They found that about one-third of the girls had signs of bone loss after pregnancy.

You can ignore scientific research all you want to suit your own personal agendas, but in the end you are only being as selfish as roissy accuses American women of being.

“However, if you start looking at babies born by mothers aged 30 and above, you can find a lot of serious inconveniences: autism, down syndrome, congenital misformations, crippled babies and so on.”

No one disputes these scientific facts. The optimal age is 18-27, not much earlier and not much later. Why selectively agree with the results of one set of scientific research that conforms to your agenda and ignore another set that doesn’t?

14 being marriageable?
Yeah, 14-17 year old girls are marriageable with PARENTAL CONSENT in a lot of western countries, even in some US states if I´m not mistaken. The keyword in the study is “may”. And frankly, every month comes out a new study that says if you do that you have an increase of 10% or a decrease of 16%. THESE NUMBERS ARE IRRELEVANT. And yes, I guess that women loose some calcium from their bones to form the bones of their baby(ies). But probably after childbirth they start recovering it. osteoporosis is probably more the product of a woman’s incapabilty to bundle new calcium into their bones after menopause hits.
And frankly, plain observation indicates that women reach intelectual, cognitive and physical adulthood at around 15 and men at around 17. Nothing magically happens at 18.

Back to the point of the post, it is obvious to all of us guys that a young female of moderate attractiveness nowadays is expected to exhibit many negative personality traits, because that is what we’ve seen, at least in the Northeast US. Is it because there are more fatties? I don’t know, because fat women are more likely to be in flyover country and in the WalMart aisles instead of the educated, professional circles we run in (it’s probably similar with the guys). In Manhattan, I RARELY see fat young white people. And as a matter of fact, women outnumber men in Manhattan. But are women any less selfish, shallow, and entitled in New York as other places? Certainly not. I think the fact that they are competing with men now for jobs and educations is more of a factor. Women no longer “need” a man, and they know it.

The only solution I can see to the poor actions of young attractive females is for all men to call them on their bullshit, in a cutting way. I think that men need to commit to stop kissing the ass of hot women completely. Treat them the same as everyone else does. As a matter of fact, treat them worse to compensate for the asskissers.

“And frankly, every month comes out a new study that says if you do that you have an increase of 10% or a decrease of 16%. THESE NUMBERS ARE IRRELEVANT.”

Would you consider these numbers irrelevant?

A woman’s risk of having a baby with Down’s syndrome increases to one in 109 by the time a woman is 40 years old, and 1 in 32 when a woman is 45. These translate to .9% and 3%, respectively.

Statistically speaking, teenage motherhood simply does not bode well for the mother.

“My experiences relate mainly to white and latin girls, things may be indeed different for asians. But maybe you should have dated an asian man and not a black man in HS”

If one size does not fit all, and girls mature at different rates, then it is better for women in general to wait until their early 20s for first pregnancy, no? The risk is significantly lower, and the payoff is the same.

“I think that men need to commit to stop kissing the ass of hot women completely. Treat them the same as everyone else does. As a matter of fact, treat them worse to compensate for the asskissers.”

That solves nothing. Treating women like shit doesn’t make them magically develop great personalities. Think about how great the men who have been treated like shit by women turn out.

From my observations, a lot of American men are also quite awful compared to European men (and their eagerness to treat women like shit to teach them a “lesson” included). The American city frat boy type is the glove that fits the American female (and vice versa). He has terrifying expectations of female beauty, servitude and sexual availability, and he has overblown estimations of his own self-worth.

That’s a downward spiral you should not get caught up in, but rise above.

What this post fails to mention is that in 1997 the BMA was changed by the government. All of a sudden, millions of Americans went from being normal to being “overweight.” The government did this for several reasons, the biggest one being the makers of weight loss drugs lobbied them!

I wish Roissy had done better research on this. Below is a link to one of the many Op-Ed pieces looking at how the government rigged weight standards to appease Big Pharma. And by the way, under the new BMI football and basketball players are now considered overweight.

I don’t doubt there are problems with obesity — I see it myself — but Roissy should know better than to kowtow to the Nanny State. Today it’s food they’re going after; tomorrow it will be beer and sex.

To Hope:
Socially speaking in THE US, it might be better for women to wait having babies until they are in their early twenties. I agree with that, however, I don’t really see any biological or health limitations for women having babies 15 and upward, having lived in poorer countries where it’s common. It’s important to be able to interpret numbers. A 45 year old mother has three times the chances to give birth to a down baby than a 40 year old, that’s a lot. But most medical studies conclusions are like:
people who eat peanuts have 10% less colon cancer than people who don’t, which in real life means eating peanut will give you 0.1 less chance to develope colon cancer, which is really nothing.

To Mr normal: eher nicht ganz so normal
All you are doing is insulting me, but you aren’t arguing with me or disproving facts. I have no idea how you want me to relate with the twin studies of Mengele or the Nazis, considering that I’m advocating for less state control and not more state control. In fact, minors can only marry with the approval of the parents or of a judge if approval is denied unjustly, so actual laws do consider your rights as a parent.
Your insults are proof of your lack of arguments. But since you like German so much:
Ich halte dich für einen verweichlichten Dummkopf.

Blah blah…Roissy, you don’t dig fat chicks. Fine, we all have our preferences. You’ve written about it a dozen times in two dozen ways. C’mon, I come here for creativity, not to read the same post over and over!

Sorry to hijack the conversation with my thoughts on teenage pregnancy, but pregnancy is on my mind these days.

“I don’t really see any biological or health limitations for women having babies 15 and upward, having lived in poorer countries where it’s common.”

The United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the western world (and double the teen pregnancy and birth rates of any other industrialized country), despite various laws and protections. It could be a cultural phenomenon in poorer populations, where desperation and lower socioeconomic factors drive people to breed at a rate higher than is healthily sustainable (because they perhaps rightly believe many of their children will not make it). In China, Japan and Korea nowadays women are marrying later and having children later, but since Asian women have later puberty onsets it’s not a major issue (also fertility being lower may be a good thing, for China especially).

The health repercussions do exist for teenage pregnancy, and low birth weight is just one of them (which you cited, and can be insidious — low birth weight and underdeveloped organs lead to lung, vision, intestinal and other problems). If you truly want the healthiest kid with the lowest associated risks like premature labor, low birth weight and preeclampsia (which can cause death in both the infant and mother), you would do better to find a woman in her early 20’s than a teenager. Note that I am not against teenagers dating older men, for example a mentally mature 16 year old girl dating men even in their early 30s. However, her suitability for parenthood is definitely far lower at 16 than at 22.

The theory can be enhanced by the economic changes in our society, which Jack rightly pointed out. Women no longer need men to provide. Economically self-sufficient, in high demand, and responsible for 80% of all consumption it appears we have created a monster. No wonder Gannon advocates hittin on the kiddies, they are the only ones most betas will have a shot at.

Just out of curiosity, did they break down the statistics by age and race? I know that there are increasing rates of obesity amongst children, but I’ve heard that the influx of Hispanic women and the aging of US society are also partially the source of some of the increase in obesity along with dietary changes (eating out more often along with increases in portion sizes and the switch to transfats and corn syrup) and a decrease in physical activity in society.

Yes I insult you. With your hitleriffic world visions, I’m surprised you noticed. Your “plain observations” aren’t facts – they are “wierd nonfacts”, and I don’t want you to relate to any more evil experiments – because you creep me out, and because I believe you may be the product of some nazi experiment gone terribly wrong. Irony. Why Jeff, they gave you gay access to the White House is beyond me, but it explains all of the torture.

I saw Roissy was quoting 1959 stats (for whatever reason). My larger piont was that the reason the entire conversation in the US has turned to the “obesity epidemic” is because big phrma created that epidemic to sell product. First they got the government to change standards, then they sold the media on it.

Big pharma also created other “medical epidemics” like restless leg syndrome, erictile dysfunction and ADHD. There are fat people, people with restless legs, etc., but not to the degree the media would have you believe.

Also, I will throw in that I’ve long worked in media, and the reason you hear us breathlessly report on these “epidemics” is because the drug companies buy ads, which prompts articles and TV stories.

DoBA did read correctly. Roissy said that the BMI scale was changed to favor overweight people into making them think that they are more normal. DoBA states that it was changed for the opposite reasons and that more people were considered overweight.

Now, according to BMI, hover at 25.1-25.4 (i’m 6 ft tall and about 187 pounds, last time I checked). I don’t think I’m overweight, I don’t have any lovehandles or anything else, and except for the fact that I feel my jawline isn’t as strong as it used to be), I’m pretty confident in that fact. Of course, the BMI states that I’m overweight. If I were to get down to 175, I’d probably start to look a little sick / gaunt… thats how it was during early college and after I started to pack on a few pounds, I looked that much better. So 25.1 is okay by me. (of course, I’m a guy, so as Roissy said, it probably doesn’t matter that much)

That being said, there isn’t much excuse for letting yourself go or being obese. Remember Gilbert Grape’s mom in that movie. yikes.

as one of the commenters mentioned, the BMI scale is more accurate for women since men have more muscle mass which distorts the readings. for instance, i would be classified at 24 BMI but anyone who’s seen me would call me lean.

now a woman at my height and weight would indeed look overweight… or grotesquely muscular.

doba – while higher BMIs may be healthy, that doesn’t make them aesthetically pleasing to the eye. a girl with a BMI of 25 in perfect health will look hotter if she dropped to BMI 21.

Somehow, I see that as a good thing. Who wants to be with somebody because they provide for their financial needs, as opposed to a emotional or even physical basis?

Besides, in the long-term, it’s probably better, since, god forbid, if you die, your wife will have some chance of providing for your children with a solid career of her own. Much more secure than the old system of “starve until new husband is found”.

To Hope: the suitabilty for motherhood at 16 or 22 is the same: optimal. All the problems you mentioned are only significant in early teen girls, which shouldn’t get pregnant. Best age for pregnancy: around 15 to 25, within that age 17-23. Sorry, it’s more normal for teen girls to have babies than thirtysomething women. On what am I basing myself? On conversations I have had with a doctor in a poor country who has seen hundreds of 15-16 year olds give birth. Perfectly healthy and less complicated than with women over 27.
To Mr normal: you are ignorant and have no idea what national socialism is about. I’m libertarian. It’s sad that you can only shame people instead of arguing with their ideas. We are talking about science here, not politics by the way.
Science is about describing reality the way it is, not the way you would like it to be.
To DA: I have always thought that the fattest group in the US are black women, am I wrong on that?

Besides, in the long-term, it’s probably better, since, god forbid, if you die, your wife will have some chance of providing for your children with a solid career of her own. Much more secure than the old system of “starve until new husband is found”.

Men, don’t take out your frustrations on women who are (or perhaps just seem) arrogant to you by being nasty to them. Even if you’re right about them, your behaviour isn’t going to help them change – and could you not consider the possibility that you might be wrong?

As a pretty young thing (once upon a time) I was often the target of misguided male attempts to knock me off my supposed pedestal. I was extremely shy until my mid-20s but really wasn’t arrogant, and only spoiled in the sense that my parents had always been indulgent about things like chores…with four children they didn’t have the money to buy us cars and expensive “toys”, though. All that the male hostility achieved was to make me hostile in turn, and suspicious of men.

Example? When I was 16 one of my teachers once got angry with me for telling him that he was wrong about the spelling of a word on a paper I had written for him. He had marked me down; I said that my original spelling had been right. He asked me to step outside (during class!) and told me I was an arrogant bitch, and then started to stroke my hair and neck and said that if I could only learn to use my looks instead of my brains, which he told me I greatly over-estimated, I’d get further in life. Nothing more happened; I think he realised he’d crossed a line and didn’t do it again. But it was the start of a long history of similar incidents. Most of the later ones didn’t involve any kind of “correcting” on my part.

Please, give women a break. Unless you see obvious signs of arrogance (being rude to waiters and shop assistants; shoving to the front of lines; making fun of poor people, etc.), don’t jump to the conclusion that a woman needs a “lesson”.

“On what am I basing myself? On conversations I have had with a doctor in a poor country who has seen hundreds of 15-16 year olds give birth.”

You realize, of course, there are different standards of healthy. What he describes as healthy might be quite different from what an American doctor would describe as healthy. The lack of proper nutrition in many poorer nations is one of the reasons why their populations have lower IQs, and this is tied to earlier childbearing as well, especially when compounded the teenage mother’s own poor diet.

For myself, even though I was a relatively mature 16 year old, and most who spoke to me then said that I sounded like I was in my 20’s, 7 years later when I look back at myself at that age I know perfectly well how ill-equipped I was to get married and have a child at that age. The high levels of emotional distress and hormonal changes during teenage years are not conducive to new motherhood. I had developed the intellectual maturity but simply did not possess the emotional maturity to handle such responsibilities. The hormones responsible for much mayhem during the early years do not settle down until the 20s for women and 30s for men.

In America, other than a small amount given as a death benefit, the government provides no assistance to widows (or widowers), and the chilren recieve montly payments (I’ve heard roughly $200/month or so per child) until the age 18. In effect, unless you had a pre-existing career, it’s going to be hard to earn enough to support a middle class family.

To DA: I have always thought that the fattest group in the US are black women, am I wrong on that?

Supposedly, but I suspect that’s due to diet that’s high in fat and tolerance of overweight women in the black community by the men. Mind you, where I work, there are grotesquely obese black women. Fat, yes, but obese, no. Black women are slowly thinning, and the Hispanic reference is due to the boom in the Mexican population in the US. IIRC, officially, there are more Hispanics than blacks in the US, and the black population has “stagnated” in terms of birth rates and growth. Single motherhood and 5 kids on welfare has become single motherhood with one kid and full-time employment.

Thank you for your answers DA.
“there are grotesquely obese black women. Fat, yes, but obese, no”
I don’t understand the sentence, you seem to be contadicting yourself.
Ah, and don’t worry, I have seen tons of white walrusses too, but usually middleaged. I remember some huge black women when I was in US high school. Asian women seem to be the exception though.
That’s what the state is for.

In America, other than a small amount given as a death benefit, the government provides no assistance to widows (or widowers), and the chilren recieve montly payments (I’ve heard roughly $200/month or so per child) until the age 18. In effect, unless you had a pre-existing career, it’s going to be hard to earn enough to support a middle class family

I knew that, whait I meant is that the Brudergemeinschaft (community) should provide.

Sorry, I’m convinced that the reasons for trying to discredit births by 15 and above women have a political or sociological basis, but not a health basis. If a woman is emotionally ready, thats a subject of which I don’t want to give my opinion.

Interesting loophole which I discovered on the way down (hey I don’t mind saying so): Guys who have known a fat girl at her fattest will swarm when they see her start to lose weight even if she is not technically thin yet. She at times will get more attention than her chronically lean friends, not sure why, maybe it is a side effect of appearance relativity.

However, we’re still talking about one nighters. To keep them you gotta go allll the way. And anyway who wants a dude who didn’t want you “then?” psh. They are known as the visual progress control group.

I don’t understand the sentence, you seem to be contadicting yourself.
Ah, and don’t worry, I have seen tons of white walrusses too, but usually middleaged. I remember some huge black women when I was in US high school. Asian women seem to be the exception though.

That was an abortion of a sentence…

From what I’ve seen, obese black women can be found in any social millieu, but, it’s more common amongst poorer and older black women, especially those who have had children. Slowly, as health concerns trump dietary habits, and has the tastes of black men change towards slimmer women especially now that white women are somewhat accessible, black women are slimming down somewhat. Slimmer than before, but not “white thin”. In my workplace, with the exception of one or two older women, there are no obese black women. There are some chubby young black women, but it’s the attractive kind of chubby. There are also a number of thin black girls as well. Interestingly, the obese young women at my workplace are white, and they’re not attractive at all and kinda trashy and probably wouldn’t be if they were thin.

BTW, I’ve seen a few chubby and overweight Asian women in HS, but they were Filipino.

lisa – that is an interesting phenomenon and may be attributable to guys trying to capitalize on a newly thin(ner) girl who hasn’t yet jettisoned her fat girl approachability. the guys probably figure that once she’s been thin for a while she’ll start to play harder to get.

What immediately distinguishes young American women from, say, the same age cohort in Europe (and most other places) is that American females seem to be losing, or have lost, the traditional female “hourglass figure”.

If you think of it, the hourglass figure is THE marker for femininity. Think of when we were cave people. A man sees a group of people at a distance of, say, 100 meters. What secondary sex characteristic (along with breasts) says “nubile female” more reliably at a distance than the hourglass outline of a female’s figure?

But, while the hourglass figure has survived the Stone Age; the Bronze Age; the Iron Age; Classical Greece and the Roman Empire; the Middle Ages; and countless migrations, wars, famines, and upheavals throughout history, it has not survived our modern, junk-food addicted American lifestyle… The traditional hourglass figure is just about DEAD for the majority of young women in America!

Walk the streets of any American city… walk Old Town Alexandria in the summer, when young women 20-30 are wearing thin or form-fitting clothes, and you see two phenomena:

1) 70% will have a thickened waist, the remnants of the hourglass figure intended by nature.

2) 20% will be anorexic or near-anorexic looking.

3) Only about 10% will have a nice hourglass figure.

Now, go to Europe and you will see that the perfect hourglass figure still survives there. Walk the streets of Zurich when the weather is nice, and 90% of the girls 20-30 will be rockin’ gorgeous hourglass figures.

Other than the fast food explanation, I don’t know how to explain this, but it’s a fact.

It doesn’t appear that the women of eastern Asia ever had hourglass figures, if we can judge by painting and sculpture. They certainly don’t today.

In any case, large breasts are a trait selected for by evolution, by means of sexual reproduction, rather than something that female humanoids came equipped with automatically. Human females are the only mammalian species who retain swollen breasts when not lactating. I’ve seen it suggested that this trait began to be popular when humans began to copulate face to face, rather than in the “rear entry” position. Once, curved “haunches” had been the desirable female characteristic, but with the innovation of face to face mating, swollen breasts came to be seen as a desirable marker of femininity.

people in the ‘burbs and dc are obsessed with talking about fat ckicks.

there is no conversation about that in new york, because we have 3 fat chicks.

in fact, i’d venture to say that a lot of ny men look for meatier ladies. there are too many hipster starving artists here. most girls lose weight when they move here because they adjust to the lifestyle.

i’d even go as far as to say that i get more attention when i gain a little bit of weight. ( i get my ass back, yay!)

suicide_blond – I’m sorry, but the “humor” in Peter’s comment must have whizzed by me. If you “heart” him and his humor, maybe you should call him over and go down on him right now… and make sure to catch it on the webcam.

I won’t be watching, but I’m sure there are some grunting cretins around here who will want to!

Alias clio – props to your high school teacher – he had some balls… He just wanted to help you gain some “extra credit”.

The fact is that no one should be mean to a girl just because she’s fat. The insults should be reserved for the entitled, spoiled, alcoholic, women who greatly overestimate their worth. This is the norm for women in their 20’s. Watch any reality TV show. Go to any bar on the weekend. Same story. Most attractive women seem to lack any feminine qualities outside their looks. Hell, I’ve even known girls who belched because they thought it was funny. Many women are cheaters. These women need to be treated like shit.

Well, Jack, I appreciate the sentiments but I’m not sure where the weight issue comes from – if you’re still referring to my post when you talk about how “no one should be mean to a girl just because she’s fat”. I know that Roissy’s post here began with weight – but I was responding to an earlier comment you made about attractive women in general, not fat ones in particular: “Treat them the same as everyone else does. As a matter of fact, treat them worse to compensate for the asskissers.”

Belching is stupid but hardly proof of moral depravity. Cheating? Well, I don’t approve – but then, I really can’t figure out what “cheating” is in a dating environment where everything is so fluid and no one makes promises. As I said already here, if you must punish female folly, save your efforts for women whom you catch in the act of really serious nastiness – of the kind I named in post #41. I don’t watch much reality TV – only “What Not to Wear” – and the women on that show are usually anything but spoiled: they’re afraid to be conspicuous; they hate spending too much on themselves and would rather spend on their kids; they believe in using their clothes until they fall apart; they have no time for their looks because they have 3 young children, etc. When I have seen other reality TV, the women strike me as shallow and demanding, but no more (or less) so than the men on the same shows.

jack – i totally disagree. bloating up to a fat tub of lard is a character issue. women who have let themselves go should be cruelly shamed as a warning to other women not to despoil the best asset they have. it is the worst sort of lie to let women believe they can get fat without suffering consequences to their sex and love lives.

let’s offer some solutions to this problem, which can be broken down into 2 parts: 1) overweight american women and 2) roissy’s dislike of them.

solution #1: roissy moves to eastern europe to be surrounded by the caliber of women he desires

this would address part 2 of the problem but is obviously NOT a solution since the absence would leave a cavernous hole so inconsolable, young beta men would be wandering the streets of dc muttering “what would roissy do? what would roissy do?” and it would fail to help american men writ large left behind to deal with the epidemic

solution #2: create an “adopt a fattie” website similar to MyFreeImplants.com.
that allows men to sponsor a woman to lose weight in exchange for pornographic images and sexual favors

some would argue this constitutes prostitution and the feminist “nazi” lawyers would be over this faster than roissy commenting on irina’s blog

solution #3roissy sponsors a “get pumped and dumped by roissy” contest that gives women 3 months to shed those ghastly layers of blubbery excess at which point each woman submits her photo and is judged on a 10-pt scale for attractiveness. winner get a night of pumping followed by a morning after of dumping and then the remora betas can take advantage of her volatile state for an easy lay.

If only 10% of American women between they ages of 20-40 are sought after by American men, how can you say that “American women have such unrealistic expectations, ridiculously out-of-sync standards, neurotically overblown egos, schizophrenic flakiness, and chronic selfishness?”

You argue that those bad personality traits come from women being sought after by men in a 6:1 ratio. But that should mean that only 10% of American women would have these character flaws. It is incorrect to apply this statement to the other 90% of American women who, according to you, do not have men flocking after them and so would not develop these personality traits.

Think through your thesis next time.
Otherwise, the post was informative enough to be interesting.

I have the sneaking suspicion you’re an obnoxious prick in real life. You sound like an anal retentive nerd criticizing the article on some obscure semantic faux pas.

Considering that for our purposes the only women that matter are the 10% that are sought after, wouldn’t it be fair to say that only the American women have these character flaws? Why in the world would you choose to pick a bone over that of all things?

“If only 10% of American women between they ages of 20-40 are sought after by American men, how can you say that “American women have such unrealistic expectations, ridiculously out-of-sync standards, neurotically overblown egos, schizophrenic flakiness, and chronic selfishness?”

Good observation. I noticed that too, but allow me to defend Roissy on this one.

The fact is that despite being undesirable by objective (i.e., world) standards, these American women are still sought after ravenously by American men, because American males have dramatically lowered their “operating standards”, progressively over the course of the past 40 years.

This is the combined result of many factors, not the least of which is the feminist realignment in the male-female balance of power in other areas — education, careers, incomes, lifestyles, etc.

All these factors have combined to shift the correlation of power in the US away from males and in favor of females. As American females have made themselves less desirable by becoming overweight, losing their hourglass figures (see my post on that subject above), and taking on offensive masculine personality traits, males have responded, collectively and quite unconsciously, by “settling” for these women because of the overwhelming need of males to have lots of sex.

This is somewhat comparable to the recent, tragic fall of the American dollar. The currency of American manhood has become diluted, while American womanhood has become grossly overvalued.

I have been arguing that the only viable remedy for American males in this situation is “strategic retreat”, which consists of the following:

1) Loosen your sentimental ties to the USA and everything American.

2) Be aware that in today’s environment of globalization, you are a ‘citizen of the world’.

3) Travel as much as possible and actively pursue foreign women who are not infected with the “American diseases”, i.e. the entitlement complex, penis envy (or what amounts to it), American-style feminism, “Sex And The City Syndrome”, and the aping of male behavior.

Ron, think of it this way: You see two girls (who happen to be best friends) in a bar. One is cute and attractive, one is a fat cow. What do you think is the best way to win the cute one, by insulting and ignoring the cow or by being nice to her and working in? Well that fat girl was more than my best friend, she was me, and she was pretty cool. So the dudes who were asisine enough to treat her shitty don’t get to play. This world is full of men and I have earned the right to make that choice. Maybe, maybe if a guy made a serious heartfelt effort but that hasn’t happened yet.

Mrgh writes: “If only 10% of American women between they ages of 20-40 are sought after by American men, how can you say that “American women have such unrealistic expectations, ridiculously out-of-sync standards, neurotically overblown egos, schizophrenic flakiness, and chronic selfishness?”…It is incorrect to apply this statement to the other 90% of American women who, according to you, do not have men flocking after them and so would not develop these personality traits.”

How about this. Women who are fat now in their 20’s and up were very likely thin in their teens. I wasn’t, but most women. When a woman is pretty, she can get away with an awful lot. Her sense of entitlement can be well-founded. But the trouble comes when she starts to gain weight. In initial denial, she will see herself through the distorted window of her former glory, while at the same time feeling a vague and growing alarm at the real state of affairs. As the fear and self-loathing grow, her need for validation through the eyes of others will also increase. This is because she is not working on her own accomplishments to create the best kind of quiet self-confidence so she needs to look outside herself for it.

It is so sad and annoying to see my formerly thin friends suddenly reading into every glance from the opposite sex for validation, their analysis of said glances distorted by the leftover sense of entitlement…then in comes the “out-of-synch standards” b/c she suddenly needs a trophy guy to balance out her lowered self-esteem. Sad and annoying, but eerily familiar, though I never had any sense of entitlement to be sure.

women are their worst critics. i guarantee there’s not a thin women who reads the chart, looks at leading # in the ideal weight column for her height and thinks “i just need to drop a few more pounds.”

mrgh attempted to debug:If only 10% of American women between they ages of 20-40

it’s not 10%, it’s 10 *million* of 40 million = 25%.

You argue that those bad personality traits come from women being sought after by men in a 6:1 ratio. But that should mean that only 10% of American women would have these character flaws.

no, it would mean that the 25% of women in demand would exhibit the worst inflated egos and corresponding personality flaws. but because men are such horny creatures, the remaining 75% of women would become the catch basin for all the losers who desperately want to get their dicks wet. unfortunately, they will have a hard time getting these guys to commit to them so their personalities would also grow bitter and rancid with time and experience. the difference between the notties and the hotties is in the manifestation of the negative personality traits.

“i guarantee there’s not a thin women who reads the chart, looks at leading # in the ideal weight column for her height”

Actually, I look at the leading # in the ideal weight column and just laugh. I weighed that much when I was 12 years old and had a child’s bone mass, no boobs, no hip, no shape, and no muscle tone whatsoever. If I dropped to that number now I’d likely look anemically thin. My periods would likely stop. I’d have to lose all of the muscles I’ve made through regular exercising along with all my boob and butt fat, which my husband adores. Of course, I’ve seen women who are that thin and are healthy, but it depends on the individual body type. For myself, it would be scary to drop 20 pounds when I’m already rather healthy.

We’re only bitches when men approach us at bars when we want to be left the f*ck alone. I don’t go to bars to get picked up, I got to drink and meet up with my friends. So if a guy approaches me, or any other woman at a bar who isn’t sending off “friendly signals” he is interrupting a private conversation, and unless he is damn witty or has the good sense to not interject until there is a natural lull in the conversation, we’re going to be annoyed.

Hello, dumbasses, we’re not there for you, and if we want to be approached, it is pretty effing obvious. Like we smile at you instead of fixing thoughtful frowns on our faces, we don’t put our jacket on over our low-cut top when you approach, we talk to people around us who are not part of our friend group–autoerotic touching, blah, blah, two-eyed wink, blah, open vs. closed presentation, you know the routine.

It’s a sign! If she’s being a bitch, it’s because she wants you to GO AWAY. Wake up, people.

m bradwell exposed her thermal exhaust port:I don’t go to bars to get picked up, I got to drink and meet up with my friends.

you know, there are living rooms for this sort of thing.
bonus: it’s cheaper to mix drinks at home!

Hello, dumbasses, we’re not there for you, and if we want to be approached, it is pretty effing obvious.

you write like a nottie.
when i speak of women who harbor a neurotic fear and loathing of masculine desire, you are what i have in mind.
here’s a hint –
when out in public places like bars, men will approach women with the goal of sex.
deal.

Disagreeing with you d/n = disliking male sexuality. What I dislike, as my earlier post makes clear (which you appear to be clever enough to have understood) are the douchebags who approach us when we are signalling that we want to be left alone.

You complain about women’s sense of entitlement. What we feel entitled to is to be left the f*ck alone when we want to be left the f*ck alone. Which is to say, in most public places, unless we (just like you guys) are signalling interest or openness (what I said about body language, and what PA said about circles vs. crescents.)

If you had a shitty day, and were waiting at some bar for your PUA friends so you could hit the town, and were just staring into your drink, no woman with any kind of manners would approach you, even if she thought you were teh hot. And I would think that it would be totally reasonable for you to be pissed off if some clueless guy started trying to talk to you about his sports team, or some obnoxious woman who you found unattractive approached you, when everything you were doing made it quite clear you did not wish to be approached.

here’s a hint –
when out in public places like bars, women will be rude when they don’t want to be approached by men whose goal is sex.
deal.

“This brings us to the final tally of potentially 60 million men hotly pursuing 10 million women. That’s a 6 to 1 dating ratio. Talk about a stacked deck.”

Couple of things. I’m not sure where you got the 40 million women figure from, because as I interpret it, the chart just says that 40 million people in the US are between the ages of 20-34. It isn’t separated out like it is further down the chart for men and women. So, let’s say that since men and women are divided in half (because the ratio is, across the board, 49.1% men and 50.9% women divide in the US according to this chart), that brings us approximately 20 million men and 20 million women in this age bracket. This brings me to my next point – where did you get 60 million men from? Just because there may be 60 million men aged 18-40 doesn’t mean that ALL of them are seeking women aged 20-34. For the majority, this will be true, but you can’t really measure this as accurately as one would like for a number of reasons (you have to factor in teh gays, people who only like older people, people who are already married, etc etc). Also, do you really think that a fat guy who is competing with a fit guy for a hot girl is going to win? Definitely not! Thus, your 60 million figure is wrong on that point as well. They aren’t really competing because, let’s be honest, a fat guy has NO CHANCE in that situation.

Beyond that, according to the other chart you referenced, the obesity rate in men aged 20-39 is a whopping 62%! Yes, men can get away with being fatter than women, but with women’s “elitist” attitudes you so describe increasing, I see this trend as a dying one.

Bottom line: It’s not as bad as you make it seem for guys. Plz call off the pity party or I will call you a waaaaahmbulance.

Let’s insult all the ugly people in hope that they can improve themselves and make our streets more beautiful. Hey, I like this! Wouldn’t it get really tiring very soon though, with so many of them out there?

Personally, I’d start with men who wear short hair. I have no idea why any guy would do that to himself. It never looks good on anyone.

MBradwell and Roissy: I don’t have issues with guys approaching me, I recognize that it’s a gutsy thing to do.

The guys I have issues with are the dense, rude, overpersistent ones who won’t take a freakin’ hint and leave me alone. Worst of all are the ones that continue to bug me after I’ve refused to make eye contact, answered in mumbles, told them I’m not single, blatantly asked to be left alone…etc. Wise up, guys. If she isn’t interested, move on.

If you are a reasonably attractive woman (and thin by Roissy standards), you get approached, hassled, ogled, and bugged by horndogs every time you just want a quiet drink with your friends. The vast majority of approachers are awkward, intrusive, and not at all amusing. Approaching is fine, but if the girl isn’t interested, leave her alone. Women aren’t public property.

m bradley screeched:What we feel entitled to is to be left the f*ck alone when we want to be left the f*ck alone.

if male attention makes you bristle so bitterly, there’s an easy way to accomplish being left the fuck alone.
stay home.
but you won’t do that.
why?
because, in reality, you DO want to be hit on by guys. by the right guy. the problem is you have to sift through a lot of riff raff before the right guy comes along.
that is where you need to learn to deal as a woman. don’t worry, your frustrations will soon be over once you’ve gotten a few more years under your belt. you’ll be pining for those days when men used to give you attention.

but judging by your attitude here, i doubt many men are bothering to approach you now. you’re probably the cockblock they are trying to get around to pick up your prettier… and more sweetly feminine… friends.

And I would think that it would be totally reasonable for you to be pissed off if some clueless guy started trying to talk to you about his sports team, or some obnoxious woman who you found unattractive approached you, when everything you were doing made it quite clear you did not wish to be approached.

pissed off is such strong reaction to a stranger saying hello. that chip on your shoulder is enormous.
if an unattractive woman hit on me i would say hi and politely decline her flirtations. 99% of women get the hint. if she’s socially retarded then i would gradually lower the boom on her until her shame kicked in and she walked away. now if you are getting overly aggressive, clumsy come-ons from lots of thickheaded guys who can’t take a hint that tells me you circulate in some low class social circles and are probably closing the bar out with your drunken friends giving opportunistic losers the chance to swarm you during garbage time.
try going to a higher class joint and leaving the place before 3 AM.

when everything you were doing made it quite clear you did not wish to be approached.

if the though of getting approached riles you up that much, the best way to make your unavailability clear is to avoid going to singles bars at all.
trust me, not many chicks are getting hit on by meatheads at nice restaurants or recipe swapping parties in your living room.

It is the mark of bad writers to describe how someone said something instead of letting the words speak for themselves. Your ad homs are getting more subtle, though, like calling my friends trashy lushes getting swarmed by maggotous males. Lovely lavendar prose, but rather misogynistic, ya think?

And wait, are my friends guttersluts or sweeter and prettier? Or both? And no loyal friend cockblocks, unless she is the designated bitch and knows her friend wants this guy to go away so that she can get the guy across the room. Gentlemen, sometimes you’re this guy, sometimes you’re the guy across the room. The signs are there. Read them.

In reality, people (men and women) do want to be approached when they signal they want to be approached. When they smile, make eye contact, mirror, open themselves to the room, all that body language I’m sure you must be familiar with if you have any game. When I want to be approached, I do all that stuff, and also dance and pass by the guy in question when I go to get my next drink….blah, blah, series of attention seeking strategies, most of which I engage in unconsciously.

When I don’t want to be approached, but want to go out and have a good time with my friends, the social signals are every bit as unmistakable as the flirty/open signals. I don’t make eye contact, I face in towards the group, if someone looks at me I am more likely to have a serious/thoughtful expression on my face, blah, blah. I’ve never been to a designated “singles bar.” I thought that was an 80’s thing.

Of course you take my statement about being pissed out of context. It was in the context of you having a shitty day and sending off distinct “I am having a shitty day” signals. Maybe you don’t have bad days, maybe you never send off ‘leave me alone,’ signals, maybe you are always on and performing in public, good for you. But most people have times like that, at least once in their life. To avoid being approached, we women have to send off those kinds of signals a lot.

You can afford to be nice to women who hit on you, because they will not harm you.

I gave a guy a nice brushoff once, and he later put his hands around my throat and ‘playfully’ choked me, and also groped me. I had to throw a block to make him stop. Two of my good friends also did the nice brush-off and ended up having to get restraining orders. Does this happen much? No, but it happens enough to make us a little nervous. Usually I do at least one nice brush off–I just don’t engage in the conversation but am not actively rude.

The lower class social circles you discuss were populated by frat. boys (who were too young for me at that time but did not seem to know it) and young professionals in a midwestern city. I live in a city right now that is sufficiently gritty that if I go out at all, I can’t avoid interacting with a full cross-section of the population including guys who lack social class (which I don’t think is tied to earning power, btw.)

I’m not going to stop going out with my friends because some men have no class. But if you start talking about how bitchy and entitled women are, I will tell you that you can avoid it by not approaching the women who are signalling that they do not wish to be approached.

Some of us aren’t playing hard-to-get. We’re playing not-to-get. And we’re trying to make it obvious! To help you! Sheesh.

I get M Bradwell, I get what she’s saying. It is annoying to be talked to by someone you don’t want to talk to, but come on, you’re in public, in a drunken environment. The bar is made for it, and you should just be polite!

But can we please discuss the deeper underlying truth here- you’re probably unfriendly in general. I love going to bars and talking to people. I love talking to my friends, guys who hit on me, random girls, and random guys. It’s called being friendly and socializing. Most people on this board, guys and girls included, are probably living by the standard rules of “i will only talk to the person who is worthy of my sexual interest.” I think once you break down this rule, things get a lot better. Another reason I love going out in Europe and parts of NYC.

When I’m approached in a bar, club, or party by a girl I don’t find attractive, I don’t give her the brushoff. I politely hold up my side of the conversation for about 15 minutes. There is still something of the chivalrous gentleman in me that I can’t shake, that tells me that every woman is worth some modicum of respect.

Unless her demeanor is openly obnoxious or her appearance is so repulsive that I can’t keep looking at her, I try to act in such a way that she might think I *could* be interested. I realize this is disingenuous and amounts to falsely leading a person on, but something in me just can’t hurt another person who’s earnestly trying to be nice. That’s just me, and yes, it probably makes me a raging beta.

“There is still something of the chivalrous gentleman in me that I can’t shake, that tells me that every woman is worth some modicum of respect.”

I have known some tall, gorgeous and incredibly chivalrous men who behave this way. They hold the door open for everyone, give attentive ear to even the ugliest of females, and act extremely politely toward people working in the service industry. Almost invariably women see this behavior and swoon, their socks already collectively charmed miles off. These types of men are usually alpha and in steady relationships, and are comfortable to be magnanimous. Their wedding rings and long-term girlfriends are usually enough to keep women at bay, but doubtlessly they are still the subject of many women’s fantasies.

“It’s not a good idea to be too kind to fat women.”

Almost all the alphas I’ve known have been kind to fat, ugly women. Usually not too kind, but most of the women know that they have no chance in the first place. To land a true alpha with tall, handsome looks, good earning power and great personality, a woman has to be top quality herself. Being merely thin, young and attractive doesn’t even do it for these guys. They are and can afford to be picky, and women know it.

“That’s just me, and yes, it probably makes me a raging beta.”

I don’t believe this is automatic. It depends on the rest of your qualities.

Niceness, nobility of spirit and gentlemanly behavior (taking on masculine and sexy undertones of protectiveness and romantic flair) on an obviously quality guy only raises his value that much higher, whereas on a below average guy these tend to make women think he’s “too nice.” Hence the stereotypically jobless, drunken bum acting like a jerk to get women to stay with them — by doing so, the loser does raise his value by making the women believe they have something that allows them to behave in such a way. However, most of the time, the woman is simply fooled, and by the time she realizes that she has been conditioned into feeling submission toward a man who is not a good provider, she has already lowered her standards.

Say what? Exactly what percent of people alive in this world do you think were conceived after a man approached an unwilling woman in a bar? If you guys are all about reproductive success, why aren’t you out cuckolding rich men who won’t divorce their wives so that your genes are passed on to children who are raised in privilege while you are free to pass your genes on to even more women? How many of you are sperm donors?

Is it your contention that men who pick up women in bars have more reproductive success then women who do not permit themselves to be picked up in bars? I would be surprised, but if you have the numbers, by all means trot them out.

Irina,

We’re all different, and perhaps you have had better luck with the polite approach, but as for me, it has gotten my ass grabbed and interrupted any number of interesting conversations. I’m not going home with them anyways, so I’m just saving them time. If men recognized this, they could spend more time pursuing women who were open to being pursued, they would think we suck less, and we would think they suck less.

I think that some women are so used to being treated badly that misogyny is invisible to them–it is just background noise, or somehow expected. The confident women I know won’t tolerate it.

I’ve read some of your comments on other threads. I’ve been where you are standing, and I wasn’t able to just jump back in the game. The same was true for a really close guy friend of mine who was cheated on.

Here’s hoping that something useful comes your way, and that it is as different from your experiences with women in bars as night from day.

m bradwell, so very very indignantly wrote:swarmed by maggotous males.

the words you use reveal your deep-rooted misandry.

Lovely lavendar prose, but rather misogynistic, ya think?

no, just rather anti-m bradwell shrikery.

And wait, are my friends guttersluts or sweeter and prettier?

false dichotomy.

I’ve never been to a designated “singles bar.”

they’re not designated. any place that serves primarily alcohol and is patronized by young singles is a place where you will have to deal with men approaching you if you’re even halfway decent looking.

It was in the context of you having a shitty day and sending off distinct “I am having a shitty day” signals.

here’s a psa:
if you’re having such a shitty day, instead of lashing out at men, don’t go to singles bars where your shitty mood is more likely to be exacerbated by the sexually charged atmosphere of men on the prowl.
hth.

I gave a guy a nice brushoff once, and he later put his hands around my throat and ‘playfully’ choked me, and also groped me.

back to one of my original points — it sounds like you hang out in low class dive bars in sketchy parts of town.
try a different venue.

But if you start talking about how bitchy and entitled women are, I will tell you that you can avoid it by not approaching the women who are signalling that they do not wish to be approached.

when i speak of bitchy or entitled women i am not talking solely about their behavior during the approach, but rather their constellation of personality traits that reveals itself over the course of a few dates.

Exactly what percent of people alive in this world do you think were conceived after a man approached an unwilling woman in a bar?

if it weren’t for condoms, there would be thousands of roissy rugrats now roaming the lands who had issued forth from the loins of bar girls.

Anything I say will be taken out of context, and used against me, no? Would you lose on a level playing field?

I was characterizing your description of male behavior (re: maggotous males) and although I said your description was misogynistic, you are correct that it was actually misandrist. Next time, I will use your actual words in quotes, to avoid any confusion.

False dichotomy? How so when I followed the statement with “or both?”

Thank you for thinking I’m halfway decent looking. It means a lot to me, really.

Re: shitty day, as I am sure you know, I was attempting to analogize our experience to experiences you might have had. If you want to pretend that men who send off angry signals don’t have their space and solitude respected, you go right ahead thinking that.

No, choker-boy was from a good family, had lived abroad, money, grad. student, blah blah. Re: sketchy bars–you should really go to one of those bars you consider non-sketchy, turn off your game, and observe how some of your less slick colleagues ‘play.’ My younger sister (20) was just telling me today that she has never gotten a guy to leave her alone at a club, even after she nicely tells them she has a boyfriend (and now, fiancee). She always has to be rude. And she is a lot more like Irina than me when it comes to being social in public places.

Why do you date women who you find bitchy and entitled? With your level of experience, can’t you screen them out? I’ve never had my ass grabbed by an actual date. (Well, that is to say, not out of the blue.) Or maybe you swing that way, but if so why complain if their bitchiness meets some need of yours?

Right. The condoms. So if you guys don’t have reproduction as an end goal, aren’t you spitting right in the eye of your God, the evolutionary biology you claim to be acolytes of?

Are you guys actually so anti-sex that you have to blame your genes for sexual urges?

M Bradwel
Why do men keep approaching women?
Because 5-10% of times it works. In the end the men has to do the persuing. Most girls don’t approach and body language isn’t always so obvious. And while most girls don’t like guys who are too persistent, it actually works a few times. (a small proportion of girls love being chased after).

Right. The condoms. So if you guys don’t have reproduction as an end goal, aren’t you spitting right in the eye of your God, the evolutionary biology you claim to be acolytes of?

Um, no.

The goal of evolutionary biology (and evolutionary psychology) is to explain historical reasons for observed phenomena. No serious evolutionist would be foolish enough to assert that an organism’s actions can’t be divorced from their original evolutionary purposes.

In fact, the adjective ‘evolutionary’ is only necessary when we study phenomena that ARE divorced from their original purposes!

Those who advocate the polite, talkative approach to the usual drunken bar morons simply haven’t had their time wasted and personal space intruded upon sufficiently. It’s okay if it happens a couple of times a night, but what if it’s ten times? Thirty times? At some point, it just palls.

But then again, why are you in the bar room in the first place if you don’t want drunken morons hitting on you? There are a million restaraunts and cafes to hang out in with you girlfriends. There are places with booths.

Look, too many experiences of dominant guys going home with women who initially politely brushed them off will lead men thinking that when a woman says no she means “not yet”. Sounds terrible and mysognistic, but it works, from a statistical perspective.

Like Roissy said before, you girls just don’t want to admit that you secretly do want to be hit on. It’s just that you only want to be hit on by the guys of high social status, not the betas. Well, sorry girls. By the nature of the attractiveness distribution, there are alot more betas than good catches.

hope:Hence the stereotypically jobless, drunken bum acting like a jerk to get women to stay with them — by doing so, the loser does raise his value by making the women believe they have something that allows them to behave in such a way.

they do have something.
dominance.
remember, hope, what matters is what turns women on viscerally, not what they’ve calculated is best for their bottom line.

However, most of the time, the woman is simply fooled, and by the time she realizes that she has been conditioned into feeling submission toward a man who is not a good provider, she has already lowered her standards.

she hasn’t been fooled at all. she followed her desire for a powerful man. and confidence, regardless of money or material resources, is the MOST EFFECTIVE form of power. women are drawn to it like flies. no lying or manipulation required.
as for her lowering her standards… there are more things a man can bring to the table than are dreamt of in your philosophies.

“she followed her desire for a powerful man. and confidence, regardless of money or material resources, is the MOST EFFECTIVE form of power.”

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. There are women who like it rough in the bedroom, but I’m not one of them. Also, the jerks I’m referring to in my original post usually treat a woman the same way he treats other men — i.e. he hits her physically and abuses her aggressively (again, some women are turned on by this; not me).

To me, this behavior does not exactly demonstrate “power” as much as…a penchant for bullying. Insecure men tend to lash out at their women. I find this behavior extremely distasteful, and my survival instincts tell me to stay as far away as possible from such violent types, given how many men have killed their significant others.

“as for her lowering her standards… there are more things a man can bring to the table than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

My philosophies? I’m not exactly a gold-digger, so if you think that’s why I gave the example of the jobless bum, you are wrong. I have known doctors whose wives landed in the emergency room due to spousal abuse. I would not abide by such a relationship, that’s all.

You twisted my point into one about male reproductive success, rather than read what I was saying, which was about FEMALE reproductive choice. It had nothing to do with bar pickups or cuckolding.

As the possessor of a vagina, you can get laid anytime, anywhere. I cannot. That may seem unfair to all too many men, but that’s biology and we have to live with it. Unfortunately, it isn’t all that great for you either, because getting laid ultimately is for breeding purposes, and you have a shorter time than you think to do it.

If you choose not to, that’s OK, but you won’t breed. That’s all nature cares about, and eventually you and your feminist termagant friends will be weeded out by natural selection. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

“As the possessor of a vagina, you can get laid anytime, anywhere. I cannot. That may seem unfair to all too many men, but that’s biology and we have to live with it. Unfortunately, it isn’t all that great for you either, because getting laid ultimately is for breeding purposes, and you have a shorter time than you think to do it.”
Yeah Sestamibi:
Most women can literally choose husbands in her late teens, and wonder were that power went when she is in her thirties.

M Bradwell – men will always hit on women in public, because it works once in a while. If men never hit on women, we would never get laid. We risk nothing by hitting on you, and there is the potential for gain. If you want it to stop,
(a) stay HOME or

(b) women need to take more initiative

And besides, you seem to have the attitude that your sole criteria for who you want to approach you is based on appearance. Maybe try getting to know someone a little better and not being so shallow and bitchy.

As to M Bradwell, I do not think it is my responsibility, or any man’s responsibility, to “read” women’s subtle body language to such a ridiculous degree at happy hour in a bar.

As a friend who held political office here in Las Vegas once said, publicly, “”It’s almost my God-given right as a Nevadan to act like an idiot if I want to.”

So I’d say, “It’s my God-given right as a guy to act as an idiot if I want to.”

You wrote:

“So if a guy approaches me, or any other woman at a bar who isn’t sending off ‘friendly signals’ he is interrupting a private conversation, and unless he is damn witty or has the good sense to not interject until there is a natural lull in the conversation, we’re going to be annoyed.

Like we smile at you instead of fixing thoughtful frowns on our faces, we don’t put our jacket on over our low-cut top when you approach, we talk to people around us who are not part of our friend group–autoerotic touching, blah, blah, two-eyed wink, blah, open vs. closed presentation, you know the routine.”

You want me to interpret your subtle body language when I’ve had four Amstels?

Since when do I have to pay attention to any of these signals? Perhaps you’ve forgotten, but a bar is a social place. People go to bars to DRINK AND HAVE FUN. Bars are made for uninhibited, happy-go-lucky socializing, and acting a little apeshit on occasion. Hell, everyone’s got a buzz going. Otherwise we wouldn’t be there, now, would we?

Presumably, loosening up and acting the opposite of uptight is why we go to bars. You should try it sometime. Bars and nightclubs don’t play by the same rigid rules as, say, an stress-filled Senate office, a staid law firm, a politically correct government agency or a goody-goody non-profit. Off-the-hook, forward behavior in a bar presumably doesn’t warrant the same level of opprobrium as in those places.

Or do we want the political correctness enforced by government and Corporate America to permeate every nook and cranny of our lives, even after hours at bars and clubs?

As long as I don’t hurt anyone (and I am a totally non-violent beta who has never lifted an uninvited hand against any woman), then what’s it to ya?

As long as a guy is not physically groping you or threatening you, I think it is your responsibility to cleverly parry his advances, use your feminine wiles, and make pleasant, scintillating conversation. This is how women have been responding to men for millennia. Just because we live in the grim, politically correct, “treat-everyone-the-same” America of 2007 doesn’t mean that I or any other guy should have to change our natures.

As long as a guy is not physically groping you or threatening you, I think it is your responsibility to cleverly parry his advances, use your feminine wiles, and make pleasant, scintillating conversation. This is how women have been responding to men for millennia.

It is not her responsibility to put up with your or any man’s advances. If she wants to go to the bar to have some drinks alone or with some friends, then leave her the fuck alone. Some people go to the bar because they simply want to drink, and they’re incapable of mixing their own drinks at home. She is not there to stroke your ego and make you feel happy. She is there for herself, not for you.

Perhaps Chris Rock said it best back around 1996 (in the context of sexual harrassment). “Sexual harrassment is nothing more than a guy trying to get laid. If my father didn’t sexually harrass my mother, I wouldn’t be here today!”

A question for Gannon, the sock puppet who occasionally pops up on Roissy’s stage to say, in his sock-puppet voice, ‘Teen girls! Teen girls!’: I smell a rat.

In your system, in which the girls aged 15-22 (who are preferably virgins) are getting hitched to guys aged about 30, with whom are the 18- to 28-year-old men supposed to be having sex? Or are they supposed to wait patiently, twiddling their thumbs while their horniest years evaporate? Or are they just supposed to be fucking their elders’ wives?

To Johnny FIve:
I usually don’t answer questions by people who offend me. But I’ll do it anyway.
First, I’m not a sock puppet, troll or faker. Second, I think you missunderstood me a little bit. I said teen girls (14 and up) should date man 5 to 12 years older which are willing to marry them as soon as they finish HS or college (18-22). So primary dating age for women would be 14-21 and primary marriage age 17 to 23.
Contrary to popular believe, a lot of young women like 5 to 12 years older men, and not only men the same age or three years older. On the other hand, few women like men who are more than fifteen years older thann themselfes, so middle aged men who are looking for a 22 year old new wife will have it difficult.
In general, men would date younger women, so a 20 year old could date a 14 year old. HS school boys could date older middel school girls, but in general you are right there would be a few years were were there would be no datable girls for them, so they would go empty or use prostitutes (an option DA would love).
(which by the way, using of prostitutes is still relatively common in Latinamerica because some decent cathloic girls still refuse sex before marriage. Having said that, I don’t like prostitution much. In general, the broader question is you want to safe marriage or destroy marriage. It’s about bonding.
The formed bond between a young twentysomething men and a young 16 year old woman is the kind which will last a lifetime. The somewhat older man will be able to properly provide for his young bride, and when the men reaches middle age he still will be coveting his young, attractive 30 year old wife instead of seducing his 29 year old secretary.

“It is not her responsibility to put up with your or any man’s advances. If she wants to go to the bar to have some drinks alone or with some friends, then leave her the fuck alone. Some people go to the bar because they simply want to drink, and they’re incapable of mixing their own drinks at home. She is not there to stroke your ego and make you feel happy. She is there for herself, not for you.”

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! Here’s what it comes down to: women are not public property. We are not here on earth to amuse men with witty banter and feminine wiles. You might be astonished to discover that many of us have families, friends, jobs, opinions, obligations and ideals. Stuff beyond being all ornamental and crap.

So if I want to grab a drink with a girlfriend and tell her about the lousy day I had at work, I am at the bar to hang out with my girlfriend. I am enjoying the party atmosphere, sure, but I’m just there to hang out. I am obliged to politely ask you to back off. I am under no obligation “to cleverly parry his advances, use your feminine wiles, and make pleasant, scintillating conversation.” Barf. This ain’t 1860.

Now, I’ll have a pleasant conversation with a pleasant person almost anytime. But if you’re a hyperaggressive annoying little bar troll, with no “scintillating conversation” to offer, then please back off when I ask you to do so.

In summary: guys, give it your best. If the girl doesn’t make eye contact, seem bored, respond in “uh-huhs”, or plainly says she’s not single, that means back off. Why is that so freakin’ hard to understand? This isn’t exactly rocket science.

DA puled like a nancyboy:It is not her responsibility to put up with your or any man’s advances.

nor is it any man’s responsibility to at all times correctly read her oh so subtle body language and refrain from saying hello.
or:
if you want a perfectly predictable no muss no fuss life, you’re only option is to lock yourself in your room.

If she wants to go to the bar to have some drinks alone or with some friends, then leave her the fuck alone.

what are you, friend of the working woman?
this white knighting act will not get you pussy.

Some people go to the bar because they simply want to drink, and they’re incapable of mixing their own drinks at home.

you never heard of beer or wine?

She is not there to stroke your ego and make you feel happy.

red herring.
what we are talking about is a woman’s hysterical bitchiness at being approached IN A BAR where approaches are a regular occurence and being unwilling for reasons that are all too obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of female psychology to avail herself of the one remedy that is guaranteed to spare her the emotional turmoil of horny men — staying the fuck home.

She is there for herself, not for you.

we’re all there, everywhere, for ourselves. the difference is, most people don’t whine about the presence of other human beings when they can do something about it.

This is the point, for those who have missed it in my lengthier posts.

1. I understand that some men go to bars to pick up women for sex.

2. Approaching a stranger and trying to get something from them–their number, their conversation, whatever, is always a risky proposition from a social standpoint.

3. If you are charming, you will succeed. Yes, sometimes you can charm people who are not initially charmable with a little persistence.

4. Women who are not charmed are not bitches, just like men who fail to fall victim to our witty repartee are not assholes.

5. If you ask (or observe) women you will notice that our polite put-offs are often ignored.

6. You maximize your pickup opportunities by approaching as many women as possible. I get that. Those of us who don’t want to get picked up minimize the annoyance it causes us by being very direct, because when we aren’t our resistence is ignored.

Sometimes, being polite is downright dangerous for a woman. Read Gavin de Becker. Read that atrocious editorial in the WSJ blaming Imette St. Guillien for her own murder.

7. Another way to increase your chances of picking someone up is to try and read their body language. If you want to maximize your pickups, and minimize the sting of rejection this will help you.

If we lived in more civil times, if we women felt (and were) safer, the rejections would probably be more polite and more in line with the witty repartee an earlier poster desired.

Choker-boy and I were having a quite polite, witty, sparkling and non-sexual conversation before he put his hands around my neck and later groped my upper thigh.

And Roissy, a variation on your own words:

If you don’t want to deal with the turmoil of being rejected by women who don’t want to sleep with you, stay the fuck home.

I’m not going to limit my drinking to places you think are socially acceptable for demure damsels, and I’m not going to always drag my boyfriend and five of his buddies to assume that I get left alone. (One guy is usually not enough, even if he behaves possessively, which is why I loved loved loved going out with eight to ten of my boys and one other girl.)

Oh, and most women at bars go home alone, or with the one that brung them.

If you don’t want to deal with the turmoil of being rejected by women who don’t want to sleep with you, stay the fuck home.

yer barkin’ up the wrong tree. rejection is tolerable collateral damage in the quest for pussy.

I’m not going to limit my drinking to places you think are socially acceptable for demure damsels,

who said anything about demure damsels or social acceptance? executive summary: if you wanna hang out in bars with your friends that single guys also frequent, butch up! this world wasn’t made to cater to your mood swings.

Roissy said: “what we are talking about is a woman’s hysterical bitchiness at being approached IN A BAR where approaches are a regular occurence and being unwilling for reasons that are all too obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of female psychology to avail herself of the one remedy that is guaranteed to spare her the emotional turmoil of horny men — staying the fuck home.”

I sincerely doubt M Bradwell screeches at every man who ever approaches her (but that would be HILARIOUS if it were true, I’m picturing a wild-eyed banshee on a barstool, breaking off the stem of her martini glass and waving it at the hordes of slavering men).

Truth is, there are a lot of incredibly dense, obnoxious men out there. Roissy, I think it would be appreciated if that fact were acknowledged, rather than dismissed as “hysterical”. Avoiding eye contact doesn’t always work, nor pointedly staring at your phone, nor does saying you’re off the market, nor plainly asking the guy to back off. Sometimes you do have to react in a fashion that Roissy dismisses as “hysterical” because otherwise the guy will not leave you the hell alone. It’s scary when a guy just won’t back off (most guys aren’t like this, I’m talking about the truly creepy 3% that scare the hell out of women).

There are some weird, weird guys out there, and I have the right to go have a drink in a bar without worrying about some guy raping me, pumping me full of drain cleaner and dumping me in a playground. So if we react angrily to your advances, it’s probably because you’re o9verly persistent and scary.

I’m sure I’ve insulted a nice-but-awkward guy or two along the way, but those nice-but-awkward guys ought to take it as a learning experience and adjust their methods accordingly. Overly persistent is just scary.

I do butch up, dear. It’s not that I can’t handle the attention, it is that I’m trying to explain to you and your guys why women act “bitchy” when approached. Nice to see you retreat, even if you won’t admit it. Fact is, most women (like most men) do things for a reason. If you understand the reason, you’ll play the game better.

Shannon,

I only ever screamed at ass-grab boy. (It was a two-hand grab, full squeeze, come on.)

Sestamibi,

Like I said, most children are not conceived based on pickups in bars. Mine will not be, either. So my lack of openness to being picked up in bars does not signal a lack of reproductive fitness or success. It is a matter of personal choice. I found my guy another way, which was more conducive to learning the things I needed to learn about him in order to decide that I wanted to be with him.

Also, not every woman can get laid. Every woman of a certain level of attractiveness of a certain age with a certain level of social skills can, but do you think that every woman can randomly pick up a guy and have a fulfilling sexual experience? For a lot of us, the whole climax thing requires a somewhat skillfull partner and communication, things that you can’t necessarily discern by closing time.

Ron,

You’re right, I worded my argument poorly. The points I meant to make were that most of us don’t really follow the best reproductive strategy, and that we are able to transcend urges that are, to some extent, hardwired in favor of making choices that fill needs that are not determined by the biological history of the species.

John Smith,

I like drinking, dancing, and hanging out with my friends. Like I said, most women go home alone, so if we really are there to get hit on, boy do we suck at it.

I don’t want to be “hit on.” Really. I like conversation or flirtation, but any time someone tries to “close” before I have a good idea of who they are (or that I want to find out who they are) I evade them. I do the same if I don’t think they really “get” me, because I don’t want to be a disappointment. I may be pretty enough for them, but if my politics or worldview or lack of religious belief is clearly going to be a problem, I take a hike instead of boosting my ego by getting someone high status to take me out.

Jack,

I never said anything about choosing a man based on looks. But if you think that is shallow, why don’t you call roissy on it? This whole post is about how there aren’t enough good-looking women to satisfy the lusts of the deserving men out there.

“Like I said, most children are not conceived based on pickups in bars. Mine will not be, either. So my lack of openness to being picked up in bars does not signal a lack of reproductive fitness or success. It is a matter of personal choice. I found my guy another way, which was more conducive to learning the things I needed to learn about him in order to decide that I wanted to be with him.”

Of course not. I never said that. The point I was making is this: once upon a time you and “your guy” (if in fact he really exists) didn’t know each other. At some point one of you made the first move, and I’m glad it worked out for both of you. What I object to is the notion, which has been an integral part of feminist ideology for the past forty years (think Junior Anti-Sex League), that this shouldn’t even happen. It is no surprise that people in blue states who buy into this shit have the fewest kids.

“Also, not every woman can get laid. Every woman of a certain level of attractiveness of a certain age with a certain level of social skills can, but do you think that every woman can randomly pick up a guy and have a fulfilling sexual experience? For a lot of us, the whole climax thing requires a somewhat skillfull partner and communication, things that you can’t necessarily discern by closing time.”

Did I put any conditions or terms on this? I said NOTHING about a “fulfiling sexual experience” or a “skillful partner”. I stand by what I said: any female, particularly age 15-40, can find a sex partner on demand. I didn’t say she would necessarily get the one she wants (because once that condition is imposed it is contingent on competition from other females).

While we may differ in our opinions on age boundaries, I _had_ at least pegged you as a ‘man’s man’ – at least, until you posted this:

I usually don’t answer questions by people who offend me.

Think about whether that opener – paraphrased, ‘I like to sit in the corner and pout when someone says something I don’t like’ – is compatible with true masculinity; I think not. Take note of how Roissy deals with dissenting comments, and try to emulate him.

I mean, it’s one thing to be aggrieved, or to be affronted by a serious insult. BUT:
(1) The sock puppet comment wasn’t ad hominem; in fact, it wasn’t even an insult! It was just a humorous way of pointing out that every single one of your comments on this blog has EXACTLY the same content, even when said content is only tangentially relevant. You’re like the ‘Let’s get ready to rumble’ guy: you’re famous (at least on this blog) for repeating one line over and over and over again. That’s neither a positive nor a negative judgment; it’s just a fact.
(2) Grow a skin.

You also harbor completely unrealistic, or contradictory, perspectives on a couple of things:
(1) OK, so in your system the men who are ‘on empty’ (your words) can use prostitutes. But, unless there are far more women than men in the population, this still leaves a dearth of marriageable women, leading to a large population of men forced into celibacy. That’s a problem. The simple fact is, you CANNOT institute age-gap marriage (+ fidelity) on a large scale without leaving lots of men celibate, or without a huge (and unmaintainable) difference in population between the sexes (like what they’re trying to do in Warren Jeffs-Land).
(2) You’re extrapolating rules-of-thumb that may be applicable in other countries to the USA, where teenagers are much more immature than in other countries. How many 14- to 17-year-old American girls do you know? If the answer isn’t zero, then I don’t have any idea how you can write what you’re writing.
(3) There’s an old piece of wisdom that says no one is ‘hot’ after enough years: the man with an attractive 29y.o. secretary WILL lust after her, no matter whether his wife is his age or younger. Yes, the younger wife helps out a bit – in the sense that he can still enjoy looking at her while he’s fantasizing about banging the secretary, instead of having to close his eyes while fantasizing about banging the secretary – but it’s not as though simple feminine youth will magically cure a man of his urge to philander.

I don’t understand why you say there would be a scarcity of marriageable women. It’s true that men would go empty for maybe 3-5 years. I think the actual situation where middle aged men compete with young men for a second wife is much worse.

Actually, when I was in the US (I was 16) most 16-17 year old girls were rather mature, driving their own cars and working part time. I said that optimal marriageable age for girls is around 17-22, but 14-16 year old girls should be able to marry with parental consent if necesary (for example the girl becomes pregnant and she needs to marry to save her honor
and give the child a proper family. (Although I doubt you understand the concept of honor or the importance of a proper family, a selfish woman like you would rather abort, am I right or not?

This seems vaguely familiar to the line of argument that girls that go to frat houses and get raped don’t deserve much pity.

After all it is a frat house and the girl go there knowing there’s an elevated level of danger…

I agree with both Roissy and M Bradwell.

They’re both partially right. If you really don’t want to risk getting slipped something and you drink or waking up naked in one of the brothers beds the next morning with no memory of last night then just don’t go to the party.

At the same time, women should not have to be worried that they will be violated in such fashion whenever they attend a frat party.

Of course a white guy with his head shaved walking through Compton or South Central LA should be just fine.

Reality unfortunately is that bars tend to attract a certain type of crowd and that crowd will behave in a certain type of way. If you don’t want to get hit on, but want to dance and have a few drinks you probably want to go to a more restaurant-like pub with live music.

Chances are you can’t properly dance to the music anyway so it really doesn’t matter what is playing as long as it has a beat.

It just doesn’t make sense to act in such way without considering the context of the situation. Doing that is the hallmark of a spoiled brat or an idiot activist. Two of the worst kinds of people I’ve met.

The name Johnny doesn’t strike me as exactly feminine (assuming that is to whom you are responding). In any case, abortions are performed for all kinds of reasons, and while I understand in South America it is deeply looked down upon and illegal in many places, it is a necessity sometimes for medical reasons.

Those who abort for personal reasons (my mother being one of them) have a need to do so, and their reasons are private, not always due to their selfishness. In fact, I daresay in my mother’s case, she did it so that she could provide better for her child rather than due to lack of “honor” or understanding the “importance of a proper family.” Please, refrain from being so judgmental.

“This seems vaguely familiar to the line of argument that girls that go to frat houses and get raped don’t deserve much pity.”

They do deserve sympathy. Acquaintance rape is much more common than scenarios in which a random stranger comes out of the bushes at night to jump a woman, and the penetration (this word seems so ugly in this context) rate is even higher due to the commonly closed door nature of such acts combined with drug/alcohol use. Sometimes, even exercising prudence, a woman can come into contact with men who seem upstanding but are actual scumbags.

“Reality unfortunately is that bars tend to attract a certain type of crowd and that crowd will behave in a certain type of way. If you don’t want to get hit on, but want to dance and have a few drinks you probably want to go to a more restaurant-like pub with live music.”

I do not fully know the severity of the situation, since I don’t drink or go to bars, pubs, etc. except during day hours to have lunch with friends or coworkers. But I would think that people who are comfortable hanging out in a particular joint will want to go back there, since it’s closer, more familiar, they will be recognized as patrons by the bartenders, etc. Many of my married coworkers go to the bars near work after dark just to hang out and relax. Different bars will have different vibes and crowds though, so it’s hard to say for sure.

“you write like a nottie.”

I would hesitate to label her such. A hot, confident girl who socializes often will get hit on by men frequently, and often by men whom she is not at all interested in, therefore she might find it a bit more annoying. I think insecure women like being hit on much more– I love it when men flirt with me, since it almost never happens to me except online (then again, I don’t go out much at all).

I really didn’t want to hurt your feelings Hope, I have high sympathies for you. I’m sure your mother had a good reason. However, unless the mother’s life is in danger, I believe that abortion is wrong. That doesn’t mean I can still understand why people do it sometimes.

No feelings hurt. I have spoken to some extreme anti-abortionists, and I understand it’s the same kind of desire to not kill as vegetarians possess.

By the way, I think the stereotypes about teens being less mature (at least in the U.S.) have to do with the fact that their less developed frontal cortex do not inhibit them as much, and they do have less social finesse than adults:

HI
My name is francis iam from nigeria , i am 25 yres, i am looking for a very good fat woman fro ny pat of the world
pls if any shld contrat me by my mail yaya.engradams@yahoo.com,Or my phone number +2347030809431
Thanks and GOD bless you

how did you come up with the number of 17.6 for the lower limit of the BMI? Why not 17.5 or 18.2?

if you take the measurements of all the playboy centerfolds over the years and calculate the average BMI for all of them you will get a similar range.
centerfolds correspond very closely to what kinds of women guys find physcially attractive enough to want to bone.

You seem like a really boring, pathetic, narrow minded guy who possibly isn’t getting much action. Why don’t you just come out? There’s a lot of hatred toward women reflected in your posts especially this piece of complete garbage. I would at least try to conceal the fact that I have nothing going on upstairs besides who is ‘hot’ and who isn’t but it seems you feel that all guys think like you. They don’t. Flesh is supposed to be there and a lot of men think this. It would be interesting to know how ‘hot’ you are.
It’s also amusing that you attempt to write articulately and intelligently about such ludicrous topics. You are seriously sad.

hello,
i’m a fair handsome guy of ninteen years.i’m crazy to date a fat woman from north america.i really do not care what the world may say.interesting persons may email me at [drobellsfor4face1989@yahoo.com] or call [77561644].
thanks.

What’s considered “sexually attractive?” I have always had a BMI above 25 – usually 27 and have ZERO problem attractive men. At all.

This is largely due to the fact that I keep a flat tones stomach..biggish boobs…and round hips/big butt. So BMI is a tricky measurement because where the fat is more important than the fat itself. BMI doesn’t account for that.

I came to the same conclusion myself about the fat epidemic and the crappy attitude women in the normal BMI range in America have. Women who are fat will try to distract the subject with the rail thin women BS. The BMI don’t apply to me and on and on the excuses go. Guys are not attracted to morbidly obese women period. And like you said chicks in the normal BMI range get way overpriced. I myself have no choice but to go overseas.

Where do you get your hard statistics for this, and what are the stats for women? So all women who are thin or fat are “noble” and will love anyone just for their “personality” only? Only men are “bastards and only go for thin women”? it could very well be true, but we need some reliable data, not just loose observations.

I think both men and women tend to be attracted to people who are healthy. Being healthy does not mean rail-thin. I don’t know any of my male friends that I have interviewed that find rail-thin appealing. What is healthy is someone who is (probably) within 25 pounds of a normal weight for their height/build, coupled with a solid sense of self-confidence. There is a lack of confidence that usually accompanies being overweight that can make a person unapproachable.

While I agree women are analyzed a good deal more on the “looks” side of things–maybe this is biological and it really has more to do with age than anything…the older the woman, the less fertile????—The real factor that comes into play with these things is economics. A guy with money, whether he is fat or thin, will generally always be able to find a woman. We are still in a societal transition state, in which more and more women are financially self-reliant, etc. I think we see less and less of this kind of thing as time wears on. I also think women overall tend to settle too quickly when they don’t have to–no matter if they are fat or thin they often end up with assholes. Women need to demand the best for themselves whatever their shape is.

In college I had over my fair share of women, and most were skinny and beautiful, but I never fell for any of them. Then there was this one girl who was overweight and quite average looking, but she had a killer personality. I fell for her and things got messy. Now I’m with a very large woman and couldn’t be happier, she has the most beautiful face I have ever seen and she is very confident and has an awesome personality and we have lots in common.

[…] at best and ugly fatties at worst. Quite simply, the obesity epidemic is skewing the 1 – 10 looks scale upwards, so that the 7 in the above photo can afford to get paid like a 10. But compared to the cute […]

Actually Roissy, you may find your numbers are overly ambitious. Just because there are twenty million spread below the 25 BMI mark doesn’t mean half of them are within the attractive rather than chubby range. The majority are probably without the latter range, meaning that the ratio would be more than 1 in 6. Maybe 1 in 8. Or 1 in 10 if you remove all other disqualifiers such as an ugly face, or being too thin (i.e. catwalk models) such as those below 17 BMI.

I am sick of fat ugly women ! Every damn place I go all I see is disgusting overweight poorly dressed women ! As a single guy, I have to agree with the key points that the writer puts forth. Don’t downplay the influence of feminism and a media culture with shows such as Oprah and others for fostering an attitude in women that promotes obesity.

Lynn don’t be fooled, men here are just as fat as the women. Not me though! ;D It’s fine that men are annoyed with women getting fatter; it’s definitely a sad sight. But I do not like fat men, or even chubby men. They shouldn’t get the impression that it’s time to kick back because women don’t care about looks AS much as men do. They should feel thankful. They are getting just as gluttonous and lazy as the women! It isn’t one sided. ALL you fatties need to get off your butts and treat your bodies like shrines! Do good for it, make your blood flow! And

BTW all you men talking about having sex with teenagers are nasty perverts who are probably the fat-asses who can’t even get the chubby girls.

“A rich or smart or funny guy who is 30 pounds overweight will have an easier time in the dating market than a kind and sweet and personable woman overweight by the same amount.”

Herein lies the other big part of the puzzle. A man has to be rich in the U.S. to obtain the few attractive girls attention. Whereas a girl can use personality to attract a guy. Personality is of very little interest to girls when compared to wealth in the U.S. dating market.

This piece written by Roissy hits the spot. I am an American raised abroad and I’ve been living in the US for the past 9 years. I have also noticed this ongoing trend in which the American ‘average’ woman is quickly becoming of poor quality, unattractive, unfit for marriage, unfit for motherhood. At the same time the prettier more desirable women feel much more entitled.

The fact is that being overweight is gross, it is not acceptable, looks terrible, and is unhealthy. Men are not asking for super-models at all. Why when someone admits that fatness is gross, they are accused of being shallow and a counter-attack follows on the ‘rail-thin’ anorexic? As if the choice is only between fat porkers and anorexic corpses.
A girl can be perfectly attractive and in great shape without being rail-thin. A girl can be thick and have curves without being overweight.
Infact, curves are always sexy. Thick women are indeed sexy. Slimmer thinner girls are just as sexy. However, what the big lard filled fatties don’t understand (but I believe they do but do not want to admit it) is that being ‘curvy’ or ‘thick’ it is not the same as being fat. Curves are sexy; rolls and folds are not! Nowadays 60% of women are not curvy. They are just fat.

The whole gospel repeated over and over about ‘real women have curves’, ‘everybody is beautiful’, ‘everybody is equal’, ‘every disgusting looking fat pig has a beautiful personality and deserves to be loved for just the way she is’ is a pile of BULLSHIT. This is only PC feel-good stuff for the big fatties to still cling to some hope and not commit mass suicide. As if fatasses automatically have a great personality. What’s so special about their personality anyways?

When looking for marriage material, I strongly support the choice of many of looking overseas where the average woman has a more pleasant attitude, is comfortable being a woman, is fairly attractive, and isn’t polluted by this feminist girl power garbage.

Lets look for good life partners overseas and leave these American fat porkers to deal with their own issues on their own.

Damm J from abroad sounds like you was taking off of your mama’s titi too soon. You must have been a fat ass yourself. That pile of crap you just vomited goes to show that you must be like a 40 year old virgin. I laugh at the thought of you. For every fat ass out there I say go back overseas, American is better off without you. Don’t knock a fat ass until you’ve had a fat ass, JERK!

“Damm J from abroad sounds like you was taking off of your mama’s titi too soon. You must have been a fat ass yourself. That pile of crap you just vomited goes to show that you must be like a 40 year old virgin. I laugh at the thought of you. For every fat ass out there I say go back overseas, American is better off without you. Don’t knock a fat ass until you’ve had a fat ass, JERK!”

Awwwww, what do we have here? Another fatass porker angry for being fat.

Sorry porky pig. Ain’t no one’s fault if your wobbling rolls of chub aren’t viewed as attractive. And no, investing in make-up and sexy clothes will not make you more sexy and desirable. You’ll be just a repulsive overweight creature no matter what you do. What about losing weight instead? Have you thought about that? Or, is it too much work?

Years ago in another time women were in shape for the most part. People ate healthy and exercised. women stayed home, worked part time, raised kids, and still remained thin. Now we have a technological age enabling people to do nothing but sit still at work and eat all day long. Still women justify overweightness as ok and tell themselves its ok to be overweight and I should feel good about who I am. Bull fucking shit! Your obesity is a sick disgusting look that even the gates of hell will not accept into its doors. I have dated women who are thin and once drunk tagged a fatty. Talk about disgusting. There self esteem is shit, there body is disgusting, there hygene, level of fitness and activities they can do are crap as well. “Hey hon lets go hikeing, camping, skiing, or do something that requires stamina.” “No thanks ill sit at home and eat”. Sometimes fat women wonder why there husbands cheat. Well hello Mcfly. It is time to fine fat women, and after several repeat offences ship them to the south pole for figure reconstruction. As for the men who are fit, travel to asia, visit the gym, hit the mall, beach or places women go who have self esteem and will more likely be fit. Your search may take years but eventually amongst the aol obese maskmiraders you will find a nice thin women.

Misogyny is ALIVE AND WELL in the U.S. The tone of this piece, the terminology used….the author clearly HATES women, with the exception of those who stroke his delicate ego and who look ‘good’ for him…cuz after all…he’s a ‘visual’ male. Meanwhile, these same men do SHIT to look good for the women. But you think your women are ok with it? Think again pal. NO woman likes to see a beached whale about to lay on top of her. She may PRETEND she’s OK with it, but she’s either just waiting to collect your life insurance check and/or she’s got some better looking guy or two on the side. But you just keep kidding yourself.

Wow, I’m overweight for 5’4! I’m 18, black and 130 lbs. I should not eat for a week! I hope this improves my chances, I’ve never had a boyfriend. I like Selena Gomez size or Iman Chanel. Very thin, that’s what I want !!!

No, no hatred here. It is a fact that fat women are unattractive to most men. It is a fact that thin women with ugly personalities are unattractive to most men. Being overweight or obese is often a symptom of laziness, and no man or woman wants to drag around some lazy boat anchor who won’t pull their own weight (ack–unintended pun!) in a marriage.

all i have to say is that there are a lot of guys that like big women and im one of them the bigger the better fat women are so much more beautiful then skinny women and they get me harder then skinny women

If you want to marry an attractive woman and you live in the US there is a very simple strategy; move overseas. There are more good looking women in any cafe in Russia at any given moment than there are in the city of Chicago. McDonalds has only recently arrived in Eastern Europe and women there look like they did in the US in the 30s, 40s and 50s, thin and attractive. Even though the tone of this message is pretty hateful, the points are 100% correct. Having returned to the US after 10 years living in Asia and Russia, I am ASTOUNDED by how fat and unattractive the women here are. And yes, truly ugly women feel entitled to an attractive man. Go overseas.

I was recently visiting Las Vegas. Being from Europe, I was really shocked by the amount of overweight women (and men). It seems being fat is the new normal over there? Women labelled thin over there would be considered fat over here. Furthermore, any woman that is thin is automatically hot in the US, but over here that’s just normal. I feel truly sorry for you guys… But I can understand it when I look at the food that’s available.

Yes a lot of men are fat too,and ya know what???Woman will marry them and have children with them no matter what they look like if they have money,and these men treat them any way they like and the woman seem to come back for second helpings in America.

Obesity flat out is not healthy and is costing us billions of dollars a year in health care costs.I think obamacare should say you get no healthcare if you dont meet the body mass index,personal responsibility in America??Whats that??

I never thought in my wildest dreams America would look like it does.You cant even seem to meet a woman thats not fat,the fat ones have the same attitudes the skinny ones do.Its like we are living in some bizarro reality.Whats wrong with wanting an American woman that you can trust,that isnt a princess goldigger that isnt obese??

Foreign dating sites is all we have as men.Are you going to marry an obese,goldigging,materialistic,shallow,vain,arrogant,entitlement minded,wanna be spoiled brat princess of a woman??Me neither.It seems thats all we have in America.How did feminism work out for you??