Thoughts on DA2 after completing it

March 12th, 2011, 21:53

First off, the usual stuff: I'll just post my thoughts on various aspects of a game, do a little comparison to other games and so on. I see no reason to turn this into a review and there won't be a score. Feel free to get a discussion going, ask questions and so on.

Note: My opinion is currently based on a full completion of DA2 with a 2H warrior, and act 1 completed as a mage.

Game length
There has been a lot of debate about the size of DA2, especially since most of it plays out in a single city. In short, there's nothing to worry about - there is plenty of content here. Not quite as big as Origins, but far more than Mass Effect 2, Jade Empire and so on.

Music, sound and graphics
The music and sound is top notch, just like Origins. The only downside is the fact that Anders is not voiced by the same actor, which is a real shame.

The graphics are.. well, depends who you ask. To me, they work out just fine, as I generally like the artistic style. I only have one bad thing to say about the graphics: What on earth did they do to the darkspawn? They look horrible. Oh yes, and Flemeth has a bit of a mismatch in terms of appearance/voice; her voice fit her old looks much better.

Gameplay
Oooh the heated topic! So many discussions have degenerated into flame wars around here because of this topic. Simplified? Streamlined? Consolitis?

Well, the tactical combat is still there, no doubt about it. Pausing is still very much required on Hard and Nightmare. If anything, it's more challenging/difficult than Origins ever was. Unfortunately, the difficulty is not exclusively based on the challenges, which brings me to the next point: Lack of tactical view.

I'll be blunt, I hate the fact that the tactical view is gone. It makes Nightmare extremely frustrating, because placing AoE spells is now - quite literally - a nightmare. It's all good'n dandy on Easy/Normal/Hard, because there is no friendly fire, but once you include friendly fire, it's remarkably annoying. I honestly suggest people avoid Nightmare, even if they do find Hard too easy, simply to avoid the frustration of not having tactical view.

Beyond that, combat is pretty much the same as it was in Origins. The speed is a bit higher (which makes placing AoE spells even harder on Nightmare), but as long as you use the pause button a lot it shouldn't be a problem.

Other than that, talents have been reworked. I'm not really sure how I feel about the new system - all in all it works out pretty well I suppose, but it's a bit.. slow? It's hard to describe, but I'll try: I constantly get the feeling that I need 3-4 more levels to get something groovy, which takes loads of hours, mainly because the talent trees are locked on level/amount of points put in a tree. A lot of levels feel completely useless because I just put "filler points" in a tree to get to the great stuff at the end of the tree.

All in all I actually prefer the setup in Origins, but only marginally. This new system is pretty smooth, especially if they tweak it a bit for an add-on or some such thing. Maybe give the main character a few extra points to play around with like in Origins where you got a few points here and there (either from quests or books).

Posted this next section (about classes) in another thread, but figured I could post it here as well to get a more complete thread.

ClassesMages
I generally like the frost spells a lot. They add a nice frozen effect that others can take advantage of. Beyond that, I actually found mages somewhat disappointing - single target crowd control is virtually useless now (too many enemies), as are single target debuffs. Only a few fights have boss monsters worth putting a lot of debuffs on (dragons etc). Mage area damage is still decent, but several of their talent trees have more debuff than damage spells.

Rogues
Dual wield rogues have immense damage on single targets, but they tend to be hard to keep alive unless you protect them a lot. Ranged rogues work out just fine though, as they have similar damage, but can stay away from enemy cleave/area attacks.

Warriors
Work out well whether they're tanks or damage. Probably the most consistent damage dealers, especially when facing waves of enemies (which you do most of the time). Not as good on big bosses though, as they tend to run out of stamina quickly when they're not constantly killing (they have a talent that restores stamina when dealing killing blows).

As for combos? Usually pointless, as you face waves that require more area damage than single target damage, but on bosses it's quite nice. It's really quite simple though: You have a few types of debuff (stagger etc) applied by different classes that the other classes can take advantage of. In most cases you don't even have to specifically cater to the debuffs as a lot of them are applied through rather basic attacks like shield bash and cone of cold.

Story (main and side quests)
It's better than Origins, but that doesn't say a whole lot (let's be honest, Origins had a rubbish main quest). The companions generally have some interesting quests, and the main quest itself is actually not as obvious as most BioWare plots, which is a good thing. There are a lot of timesink quests though, that you never actually care about, but do just for the experience/money. It's not like Gothic where you put serious effort into pretty much every quest - it's more like an MMO where you gather up 3-4 quests and go do them all at once. This aspect was present in Origins too, however, so it's nothing new.

Overall, the writing seems better than Origins. A bit more focused. BioWare is still a notch below Obsidian, but I wasn't expecting anything else.

Verdict compared to Origins
Simple really: If you liked Origins mainly due to the tactical, oldschool combat, you should probably wait until DA2 hits the bargin bin. If you liked it for any other reason, you should pick up DA2 sooner than that. If you didn't enjoy Origins, you probably won't enjoy DA2 either.

Overall it has better writing than Origins, but lacks exploration and tactical view. The production values are pretty much the same, and I have yet to encounter any serious bugs. The only bug I've noticed was someone claiming my hero from Origins (I imported the savegame) let the Architecht live, when in truth he didn't.

I'll post this for now, and expand a bit later. I need to play a bit more now.

Future notes to expand upon (or topics to discuss):
- Why is every mage now a blood mage, able to summon demons and undead? Most mages also turn into abominations for some reason. In Origins, this was pretty rare.
- Inventory system, simplification taken too far.
- Choices and consequences: There are lots, but are they real? Need a second playthrough to verify some of the choices (I suspect the ending is actually a fake choice, not a real one).
- Kung Fu mage animations: Cool to look at, annoying in combat as they tend to delay spell casting by quite a bit.Ļ
- The wave mechanic is used far, far too much.
- Streets of Kirkwall a bit crowded with enemies at night?
- Action. Talking. Action. Talking. There is nothing inbetween: No exploration, no inventory management, no puzzles, nothing.
- The impact of imported savegames: A few mentions here and there, a nice touch to get the feeling that Hawke exists in the same universe as the Hero of Ferelden, but nothing major.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
Especially ones that must be done at night time. You get into battle every 5 steps or so. I thought by end of chapter 2, I must have killed 99% population of Kirkwall. They must be breeding really fast

If you go once through the area and really hunt does guys, you get a map to there headquarters and can finish them off. After that you can move around in that area undisturbed.

What I hated a lot is though, a lot of dialogues were meaningless. You never get out of fight by choosing right dialogue option. No matter what you choose "axe in your face" is the result.

I can't say for all the choices but I did get out off some fights with choosing the right answers.

I loved companion quests. It made me love/hate them so much. I couldn't careless about Isabela until towards the end of chapter 2. I begin to hate her with passion, then beginning of chapter 3, we've became good friends. Anders, I loved to bits until towards the end of the game, but I've forgiven him in the end<3 (yes, I romanced Anders). I really end up loving all of my companions (even Carver) except Merrill. I just can't stand her. Bioware really flashed out individual characters so well, although most of them have extreme personality.

I like the companion quests, as far as I know them, too. It's not just a "can you help me get that" but an interesting story behind it.

Funny though. Anders believes mages should be free and all, and yet should we trust him? I got the feeling Anders has lost war with Justice/vengeance, so technically, he is an abnomination. So what difference is there between Anders and blood mages? Well, except the fact he does not use blood magic

Blood mages aren't abominations as far as I know. It's just seen as really evil and a lot of them start killing people to do their magic.
The difference between Anders and normale abominations probably is that he is not possessed by a demon but by a spirit. I don't think, Justice uses Anders the way the other demon possessed people were used. They started to give up their own family to accomplish their goals while Anders still is somebody who wants to help.

Originally Posted by Maylander
Other than that, talents have been reworked. I'm not really sure how I feel about the new system - all in all it works out pretty well I suppose, but it's a bit.. slow? It's hard to describe, but I'll try: I constantly get the feeling that I need 3-4 more levels to get something groovy, which takes loads of hours, mainly because the talent trees are locked on level/amount of points put in a tree. A lot of levels feel completely useless because I just put "filler points" in a tree to get to the great stuff at the end of the tree.

There is not really a difference to DA:O. I remember playing as a rogue and choosing some talents I never used so I could get the talent in the third tier.

It's better than Origins, but that doesn't say a whole lot (let's be honest, Origins had a rubbish main quest). The companions generally have some interesting quests, and the main quest itself is actually not as obvious as most BioWare plots, which is a good thing. There are a lot of timesink quests though, that you never actually care about, but do just for the experience/money. It's not like Gothic where you put serious effort into pretty much every quest - it's more like an MMO where you gather up 3-4 quests and go do them all at once. This aspect was present in Origins too, however, so it's nothing new.

I don't know but so far I had a lot more "I want to kill this guy" moments than in DA:O. For example a certain dwarf, a "mother" and a certain murderer. And in this game you really can't be sure who is left standing when you finish the chapter…

- Choices and consequences: There are lots, but are they real? Need a second playthrough to verify some of the choices (I suspect the ending is actually a fake choice, not a real one).

I really think it depends on the choice. For some there is a different consequence but they aren't that important. For others their is a different consequence but the ultimate outcome is at least similar.

Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative
The length this is funny. I see repeated posts on forums claiming the game is 15 hours long or 20 hours long I'm at 25 hours and just got to chapter two.

The game is plenty long enough.

I really don't know how somebody played through this in 15 - 20 hours. I'm at 26 hours and still in Chapter Two.

Originally Posted by Siran
I really don't know how somebody played through this in 15 - 20 hours. I'm at 26 hours and still in Chapter Two.

It's a classic comment, seen again and again for many different games. I see two possible explanations:

1) Bragging. Some people think finishing a game fast makes them cool somehow.. so they exaggerate a bit.

2) Some gamers have a lot of time for gaming and can/will allow themselves to be completely absorbed in a game. When they finish the game it doesn't *feel* like a long time for them, so they just throw out an estimate matching their feeling that the game was short.

Usually I simply don't believe reports like this, since I often know for a fact that the game in question *can not* be completed that fast

Originally Posted by Siran
If you go once through the area and really hunt does guys, you get a map to there headquarters and can finish them off. After that you can move around in that area undisturbed.

What? In all area? During chapter 1? I remember it happened to me two times and the second time I was level 10 and got a very rude fight forcing me do a lot of micro management, and I loved it.

This first chapter seems never ending, but I like that. The good point is people that don't like have too many fights can skip many (not all) and can spread those street night fights, sometimes I really feel "woo can't I have more fights?".

Originally Posted by KasperFauerby
It's a classic comment, seen again and again for many different games. I see two possible explanations:

1) Bragging. Some people think finishing a game fast makes them cool somehow.. so they exaggerate a bit.

2) Some gamers have a lot of time for gaming and can/will allow themselves to be completely absorbed in a game. When they finish the game it doesn't *feel* like a long time for them, so they just throw out an estimate matching their feeling that the game was short.

Usually I simply don't believe reports like this, since I often know for a fact that the game in question *can not* be completed that fast

Players are also different, first you can skip many points, second you can fly through exploration just following blindly a quest cursor, you can spend quite few time in thinking about equipments and classes level up and you can even just use the auto level up button, you can fly much faster through fights by lowering difficulty level instead of replay multiple time a fight and think about tactics and try different tactics. And at reverse you can spend a lot of time into all those elements and spend much more time to complete the game.

But in no way I expect DA2 be as long than DAO. At first play of DAO, the game recorded duration was 120 hours and this not counting reload.

Originally Posted by Dasale
What? In all area? During chapter 1? I remember it happened to me two times and the second time I was level 10 and got a very rude fight forcing me do a lot of micro management, and I loved it.

Darktown, Lowtown, Hightown. I'm not sure if they still there in Chapter 2 if you killed them in Chapter 1.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by KasperFauerby
2) Some gamers have a lot of time for gaming and can/will allow themselves to be completely absorbed in a game. When they finish the game it doesn't *feel* like a long time for them, so they just throw out an estimate matching their feeling that the game was short.

Usually I simply don't believe reports like this, since I often know for a fact that the game in question *can not* be completed that fast

I loved companion quests. It made me love/hate them so much. I couldn't careless about Isabela until towards the end of chapter 2. I begin to hate her with passion, then beginning of chapter 3, we've became good friends. Anders, I loved to bits until towards the end of the game, but I've forgiven him in the end<3 (yes, I romanced Anders). I really end up loving all of my companions (even Carver) except Merrill. I just can't stand her.

What? Except Merrill? And even you can't stand her? Woo so you don't love Imoen illegal daughter, the young little sister forever? And not even a word about Varric? Arg. That said I agree that Carver is more interesting that what's mentioned usually in posts about the game. I don't have yet the good background as I haven't yet finished chapter 1, and I met Anders only almost at end of chapter 1, and Isabella even later not even yet available as a companion. And anyway I plan this time not make the error I made with DAO and plan keep many companions for the replay.

Originally Posted by Siran
Darktown, Lowtown, Hightown. I'm not sure if they still there in Chapter 2 if you killed them in Chapter 1.

Thanks for the tip, I made Lowntown and Hightown, Hightown final fight was very very rude at level 10. I'm not sure for Darktown, it is complicated because of the special entrances (from Docks) but well I suppose those don't count.

I'm still in Chapter 1 so I still can check Darktown to not take the risk of not having the opportunity in Chapter 2. It's that sort of stuff I expect have consequences even if not on main quest. In fact I already make once a choice killing a quest provider so I'm quite sure that some player decisions have some importance and later consequences.

Originally Posted by Siran
I'm playing on Steam, so I can consult the counter there.

That's really a point I like in Steam, but don't have it this time as I play a box version for DA2. I wish someone release a freeware doing that counting, but well as I play DA2 on Mac I wouldn't be able to use it.

Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative
The length this is funny. I see repeated posts on forums claiming the game is 15 hours long or 20 hours long… I'm at 25 hours and just got to chapter two.

The game is plenty long enough.

I always wonder if those people who say they completed the game in 15 hours actually played the game to SAVOR it? It seems like they put the difficulty on casual, did ONLY the main quests, and breezed through them at that.

I am well over 30 hours of playing and am still in the 2nd "act". I explore every inch of the maps, try to do all the sidequests, take time to find the best loot and configure the most enjoyable combat tactics, etc.

Game length is NOT an issue this time.

Maylander,

Thank you for the spoiler-free review Maylander. I'm still playng the game, but can echo some of your exact sentiments. Story is more focused than Origins (smaller scope, but generally more interesting and better characters). Combat is DIFFERENT, but not worse. I actually LIKE the faster pace and the re-organization of the talents. Exploration is dumbed down and pretty much non-existent, though. I mean, not that that was always Bioware's strong point (this aspect has eroded with each successive Bioware release since BG2), but the maps this time are very linear and obsessively goal-centered.

You pretty much summed it up with "Talk - combat - Talk - Combat",etc. It's a good thing the combat is exciting and the plot better than Origins.

I'm playing on Hard, btw. I found normal slightly too easy for those of us that spend time creating the best tactics lists. Hard is just the right amount of challenge. However, a few of the boss fights were so tough on Hard that I had to temporarily drop it back to Normal to get through them.

When doing some quests in dock, still during chapter 1, I discovered you can add to the list the Docks. Now 30h still in chapter 1! And I don't count the reload because the more it goes the more there are very rude fights.

Originally Posted by Dasale
That's really a point I like in Steam, but don't have it this time as I play a box version for DA2. I wish someone release a freeware doing that counting, but well as I play DA2 on Mac I wouldn't be able to use it.

Saved games show how long you have been playing anyway, much more accurately than Steam does.

Where do I get that to avoid battles at night time?? Because I am really fed up with constant battle.

About Anders — I guess you are right. He is possessed by spirit not demons. Still, his obessesion was getting really freaky at the end.

You can't really avoid them, you can get them over with once and be done with them. You run through the whole district and trigger the groups. You know you found all if you get some kind of message about their headquarters. Now you can go there and kill the leaders of the group and you want have any more night fights. (At least not from that group…)

I'm still in Chapter 2 so I don't know how the situation with Anders evolves.

Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative
Saved games show how long you have been playing anyway, much more accurately than Steam does.

But only for one playthrough. If you want to know, how much time you spend with the game, Steam's better.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
Dasale:
I couldn't stand Merill, yes. As for Imoen, I really loved her in BG2 and hated her in BG1. I guess there is some similarity between Merrill and Imoen (if you are talking about BG1).

I hated what they made of Imoen in BG2, a sort of irritating constant whiner even if she had reason for. It's an awful misunderstanding of Imoen in BG1.

For Varric well it's the more detailed and the more funny, but I don't have a good point of view as I'm still at chapter 1.

Originally Posted by Siran
But only for one playthrough. If you want to know, how much time you spend with the game, Steam's better.

And Steam will register reload and alternate tries that represent better the real time spend.

Still out of topic but about game length, I'm still at chapter 1, the whole team at level 11, for about 35 hours of play, and 48 quests but about 10 are quite tiny but some are rather long too. And I think there's at least one I haven't succeed to trigger (or perhaps this will be later), plus lost few because I made a choice canceling completely a provider of quests and perhaps lost 2/3 quests.

Originally Posted by bjon045
There are people who can finish BG2 in less than 15 hours so I certainly don't doubt people can finish this in less than 10. My guess is they would be skipping a fair chunk of the dialogue.

Have you done it, if not why you believe it?

I doubt it's possible the first time you play it. For a careful planed replay with a walk through in second hand and some drugs to keep the rythm, perhaps. Often some players will quote the time for replaying a game in hurry and already knowing it perfectly. But that sort of time is totally wrong and pointless. Doom 2 could be finished in less than 15 minutes… Yeah very useful.

Originally Posted by MaylanderStory (main and side quests)
It's better than Origins, but that doesn't say a whole lot (let's be honest, Origins had a rubbish main quest).
…
Overall, the writing seems better than Origins. A bit more focused.

I just completed the game for the heck of it and this is really off imo.

First, Originsī main quest was not rubbish, unless youīre talking about its basic structure aka "blight is coming, pc becomes grey warden, gathers allies and defeats archdemon, the end" or something.
Because the core of DA:Oīs main quest lies in dealing with different factions, getting to know their customs/problems, becoming involved in local politics and choosing how to deal with them.
The darkspawn threat is a generic premise, but it serves only as a background and agent to get other things moving. And the main quest is really about these other things and these were presented well, you got to make a solid amount of choices on the way and various options were presented in plausible manner.

DA2īs main quest is "not so obvious" not because itīs intricately constructed, full of smart subtlety or overall well written, but because itīs a directionless mess.
Itīs just a bunch of loosely (if at all) connected side quests the gameīs throwing at you as you go on, thereīs rarely any sense of tangible reason why you should do them and even though you can make some choices along the way, in the end they donīt matter at all since everything plays out more-or-less the same, even the ending cinematic is the same bar one or two different sentences.
And "main quest" parts in act 3 didnīt make any sense whatsoever, hilarity at its finest.

DA2 has only more interesting/original premise, but when compared how both gamesī main quests actually play out in detail, DA2 has nothing on DA:O.
Personally I consider DA2īs "main quest" to be the worst of Biowareīs games Iīve played (havenīt played NWN OC and Jade Empire).

Originally Posted by Maylander
and I have yet to encounter any serious bugs

I got one - my character attacked progressively slower to the point the game became unplayable - the culprit was bugged friendship power from Isabela and I had to use save game editor to fix it.
Also, "post-chat" to Merrilīs act 3 quest occurred before I even started the quest.
And just remembered that reviving party members in combat results in them being treated as if out of combat (fast regen, constantly sheath weapons).

Originally Posted by DeepO
…
DA2īs main quest is "not so obvious" not because itīs intricately constructed, full of smart subtlety or overall well written, but because itīs a directionless mess.
Itīs just a bunch of loosely (if at all) connected side quests the gameīs throwing at you as you go on, thereīs rarely any sense of tangible reason why you should do them.

It seems you haven't captured or appreciate the scenario choice of the game. It's not a long linear story with one introduction, 4 (or 5?) parts still linear but you can do them in various order, and one linear final, the whole with more or less secondary quests not really related but that help remove the linear feeling. That is the typical Bioware main story design.

Here nope, there's no main story, it's you the main story. You are an obscure unknown immigrant and through your actions and decisions you just build your reputation in a town. There's ton more decisions than in DAO and you seem think they have no consequences but I seriously doubt about it, but ok only replay will tell. But just one example, did you got at beginning of chapter 2 absolutely no Templar that want talk to you, but one almost rejected from the order? I got that, but because of past choices I wasn't surprised to get that. Another little detail, after to have made a series of choices I got from the mother a dialog, in it she says she don't like how I am involved with chantry problems or the templars.

Yes there is no main story at least during the long first part introduction and the very long first chapter, but that's on purpose. For me it was quite well done, it build very well the feeling to not be the hero that destiny has mark and many already know it. No you are almost an anti hero and you are involved in many different stuff, not that important because you aren't that important, and you have many little decision to do, nothing related to saving a whole town, area, population or world. But those many decisions will (my bet) build series of small consequences and some more important consequences.

EDIT: As a fresh almost unknown immigrant arriving in a new town, have strong main story on start would have been awfully artificial.

Originally Posted by KasperFauerby
It's a classic comment, seen again and again for many different games. I see two possible explanations:

1) Bragging. Some people think finishing a game fast makes them cool somehow.. so they exaggerate a bit.

2) Some gamers have a lot of time for gaming and can/will allow themselves to be completely absorbed in a game. When they finish the game it doesn't *feel* like a long time for them, so they just throw out an estimate matching their feeling that the game was short.

Usually I simply don't believe reports like this, since I often know for a fact that the game in question *can not* be completed that fast

You forgot probably the most important one…
3) Explorers vs. Story followers. This is what happens in my case. I finished Fallout 3 in a weekend (probably about 15-20 hours) yet others say they've played 100 hours and haven't finished the game. My character wasn't even max level (finished at 16 I think). Some people like exploring everything and leaving the game story as something to do later. Others follow the story.