Quote:Resources don't just become "available". They are created. What incentive will people have to create resources if they don't have any individual responsibility?

What makes you think they won't have responsibility or personal choice? Why are you jumping to Soviet Communism?

Because you are using the kibbutzim as an example. They were built by socialist idealists, people who thought Stalin was just great. In a kibbutz, who gets what is decided by the group, not the individual.

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They were bailed out because they needed capital inputs because they were starting from scratch. They were building a country out of the desert as I'm sure you are aware. That could not/would not have been possible under the conditions and the time frame that it was under regular market economies. Much like the colonization and industrialization of anywhere off Earth isn't going to happen with our current system of capitalism. Either governments will do it, or... something else will, open collaborative, totalitarian dictate, or machine overlords cracking their electric whips...

They were not only supported when they started, they were bailed out multiple times decades after they started. But you didn't answer the question - who will bail you out when you run out of resources on Mars?

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SpaceX isn't a good example of Capitalism in action either. It is a billionaire spending his fortune pushing it forward, he has a relatively small circle of investors and the business and the SpaceX operation is pretty small relative to the big boys and NASA. Tesla and the battery business is already the same size physically and financially and will quickly grow much bigger. Musk's announced dream of going to Mars is just talk and some pretty CGI at this point. They have no real plans or hardware to actually get there in the foreseable future, and have no way to finance such a private venture. They will have to get government to foot the bill.

The man is making a profit. That's capitalism. And SpaceX will grow pretty quick once they start reusability (oh grasshopper, how beautiful art thou).Sure, government can do it. But that's not a self sustaining kibbutz.

Volks:Yes, Musk is taking government subsidies (which isn't good), but on the other hand, PayPal is spending money on taxes, and their drain on the economy. So it's a wash (and no, I'm not against completely eliminating taxes, just reducing them a lot).

_________________“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.” -Anonymous

Of course we are going to the Moon. Any serious exploration of the Solar System has to start with learning how to get to and from the Moon easily and reliably, how to build underground habitat, and how to recycle water. Learning how to survive on the Moon will make sure that we can survive anywhere in the Solar System. That learning process will be much easier when we have the resources of Earth close at hand.

For some reason, I don't see large numbers of people living in space for many years to come. But I am convinced that there will be people living and working in space, at least if humanity is going to survive. Because we must begin to extract resources from other places than the Earth, and we must learn to process those resources off-planet. Energy and minerals are becoming increasingly difficult to extract here on Earth, yet demand for goods is growing at the fastest rate ever.

At some point in time, it will be cheaper to get copper, iron, aluminum, hydrocarbons, and energy from off-planet. The environmental costs are rising rapidly, and the easy resources have already been harvested. This is why BP was drilling in 5,000 feet of water looking for oil, and why Shell is trying to drill in the Arctic Ocean. Until the price of crude oil fell to half of what it had been, companies were drilling in 10,000 feet of water off the northeast coast of Brazil, looking for oil that is believed to be 3 1/2 miles under the seabed.

Also, Ships made in space, could much heavier then things made on earth since you dont have to launch them, and a small shuttle could send people back and forth, while cargo could be launched by less conventional methods, like Rail/cannon +small liquid fueled rocket.

_________________Let not the bindings of society hold you back from improving it.... the masses follow where the bold explore.

Yes, James, that is so true. The first 100 miles of space flight is the hardest, the most challenging, and the greatest obstacle to our future. We have taken a giant step backwards, resorting to old technology to bridge the gulf between Earth and everywhere else.