tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852Tue, 20 Feb 2018 13:49:21 +0000EducationInformation TechnologyContemplative PrayerLiberal ArtsYogaBeliefsFamily TreeHinduismLogical Positivism666AgnosticismAncient HistoryAtheismBody ModificationCreationDeterminismEvilFree WillFund RaisingGraceKnowledgeLanguageLawManagementMormonismNew ReformationOriginsPhilosophyPhysicsPurityPurposeReligulousSalvationSatireSlangSolomonSpeed of LightTattooTonguesTrinityWhy we are herecosmologyChoose Your BeliefsGod could have forced everyone to follow Him, and he didn&#39;t have to give Adam &amp; Eve the option to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good/Evil. So, the highest ethic in Christianity and most faiths is to allow people the free choice of their beliefs and practices. The marketplace of ideas is a sacred marketplace, sanctioned by the Christian God as well as most other religions. This is my vendors booth in that marketplace. I hope you buy my understanding of what God wants from us.http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/noreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)Blogger3112541.858279-88.109045ChooseYourBeliefshttps://feedburner.google.comSubscribe with My Yahoo!Subscribe with My AOLSubscribe with BloglinesSubscribe with NetvibesSubscribe with GoogleSubscribe with PageflakesSubscribe with PlusmoSubscribe with FeedLoungeSubscribe with The Free DictionarySubscribe with Bitty BrowserSubscribe with Live.comSubscribe with Excite MIXSubscribe with Yourminis.comSubscribe with Attensa for OutlookSubscribe with WebwagSubscribe with netomat HubSubscribe with Daily RotationSubscribe with Podcast ReadySubscribe with FlurrySubscribe with ParticlsAdd to Any Feed ReaderSubscribe with fwickitag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-5911659737046013147Wed, 01 Jun 2016 06:04:00 +00002017-06-04T18:51:11.004-05:00BeliefsThe West Texas Confession<h2>Introduction</h2>Much of what is marketed as Christianity, while good and helpful, is actually a substitute that obscures the core power of the Bible and Jesus. Since I have recently moved to West Texas from Wheaton, Illinois I want to at this time outline my current beliefs so that I can communicate them clearly and systematically. My intellectual background includes studies in Electrical Engineering (i.e., Physics), Information Technology, Management, Theology, Liberal Arts, Economics and Education Reform. Here is what I think I have learned so far, much of which is at odds with popular Christian teachings.<br /><br /><h2>0. Summary</h2><div>Proposed celestial evolution has <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnWyPIzTOTw&amp;list=PLJdvq0MmTxaIojlRgJ6EQTgZfSkjqRY0_">no viable mechanism</a>.&nbsp; Mutation &amp; natural selection doesn't apply and a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse">multiverse</a> doesn't make logical sense. &nbsp;So, some form of an intelligent designer seems to make more sense.</div><div><br /></div><div>The <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2011/03/enlil-enki-and-genesis.html">earliest written records</a> in history are from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer">Sumer</a> and, though in mythological form, they do seem to include references similar to the earliest historical accounts claimed in the Bible.</div><div><br /></div><div>A misinterpretation of "<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism">Logical Positivism</a>", which equates what we see and what our instruments measure with actual reality, is at the root of misinterpretation of valid formulas in quantum mechanics and relativity and is the cause of some seemingly unsolvable dilemmas. Physicists/scientists have become the modern day priesthood, requiring the quantitatively illiterate mass of people (i.e., people who are unable to understand/interpret their formulas directly) to trust their interpretation of how the world works without giving people the ability to interpret the formulas for themselves.</div><div><br /></div><div>There is no actual difference between "natural" and "supernatural", other than one type of event is observable/repeatable and the other is not. &nbsp;The goal is to separate truth from fiction/mythology, whether a particular event is repeatable or not.</div><div><br /></div><div>The main conflict and goal of life, as implied by Genesis and Revelation, seems to be maintaining full individual freedom of choice (required for value, love, motivation, etc.. to exist) while at the same time creating a good society (Garden of Eden, healthy families, good nations, Heaven). &nbsp;The answer to the dilemma of how to have both seems to be to freely choose to sacrifice ourselves daily to do what is right. &nbsp;To be "born again" one has to first be willing to die. &nbsp;To be a "follower of Jesus" is to be willing to "sacrifice" ourselves as Jesus did. &nbsp;Both baptism and communion were intended to symbolize the willingness of followers of Jesus to die just as Jesus was willing to sacrifice himself. &nbsp;Willingness to give up everything, coupled with a commitment to do what is right, eliminates daily stresses and worries and gives a person the motivation to do great things, to become a hero and make a difference in the culture and world.</div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TNy81dUml5k/WPJuqUWioyI/AAAAAAAAoUA/jyRwtEay510W3aegMLAz0gYaeq4qKQifwCLcB/s1600/custom_cross_bridge_12262%2B-%2BSelf%2BSacrifice.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="111" src="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TNy81dUml5k/WPJuqUWioyI/AAAAAAAAoUA/jyRwtEay510W3aegMLAz0gYaeq4qKQifwCLcB/s200/custom_cross_bridge_12262%2B-%2BSelf%2BSacrifice.png" width="200" /></a></div>Many Christian teachers have&nbsp;<i><b><span style="color: #674ea7;">replaced</span></b></i>&nbsp;this meaning in favor of the more marketable "Jesus sacrificed himself and we just accept his payment to God for us", without also including an up front discussion of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. &nbsp;That is similar to how some vendors market their product as being "free" without discussing up front the actual future cost. &nbsp;To understand the specific differences at issue, see the&nbsp;<a href="https://youtu.be/aGYFjKa5n0Y?list=PLF9loYiC67MdtyehnRUgqfiHeb5pHc6fH">Penal Substitutionary Atonement</a>&nbsp;debate and compare to&nbsp;<a href="http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/download/jat.2015-3.0914-65190722a/257">Communal Substitutionary Atonement</a>. &nbsp;So some have emptied the meaning of baptism and communion to be only "remembering/accepting how Jesus paid our debt to God" and have re-purposed the symbolism to focus on group membership rather than a shared commitment to self-sacrifice. &nbsp;Then, some infuse a form of Christian mysticism and ritual in order to <i><b><span style="color: #674ea7;">substitute</span></b></i> for the meaning and power that they perceive is now missing from the center of Christian teaching. &nbsp;By necessity they <b><i><span style="color: #674ea7;">replace</span></i></b> discussion, debate and active learning with monologue and use various forms of social control to maintain the unity of their organization.</div><div><br /></div>The word "<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist#Etymology">antichrist</a>" combines two <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_(linguistics)">roots</a>: <a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B9-#Greek">αντί</a> (anti) + <a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A7%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%82">Χριστός</a> (Khristos). "Αντί" can mean not only "against" and "opposite of", but also "<i><span style="color: #674ea7;"><b>in place of</b></span></i>".<br /><br /><h2>1. Evidence (What)</h2>Before we can use reason to determine how the world works or communicate information, first we must observe raw information about the world we live in.<br /><br /><h3>1.1 The Natural Record</h3>Observational Science is using our senses and various tools to observe the current state of nature. From those observation and by using some assumptions, through theoretical science we may be able to extrapolate what likely happened in the past and therefore what is likely to happen in the future.<br /><br /><h3>1.2 The Historical Record</h3>People have recorded their perspectives of what has happened in their lifetimes. By trying to determine what the authors were trying to communicate to their intended audiences, if the authors were truthful and accurate and their writings were not altered over time, then we can determine what likely happened in history. From that history then through philosophy/theology we can determine what we should do in the future to avoid past problems and to build upon past lessons learned.<br /><br /><h2> 2. Reason and Belief</h2><h3>2.1 In the Beginning was Information</h3><div>When John said "In the beginning was the Word" he was also indicating that in the beginning was information. &nbsp;Mysticism is a substitute for searching out information.<br /><br /></div><h3>2.2 Inductive and Deductive Logic</h3>By observing the world we <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning">inductively</a> derive knowledge and rules that are likely, but not guaranteed, to be true to help determine what is likely to happen in the future. Inductively derived information gives us the assumptions/premises that, if true, we can use with <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning">deductive</a> logic to determine additional information that is also true.<br /><br />Fallacies are reasoning shortcuts we all use when we don't have enough time to reason through a question fully. &nbsp;So using fallacies is the most effective marketing method, but we should take the time to use logical think through for the most important decisions rather than relying on fallacious shortcuts.<br /><br />Similarly, emotions are learned responses based on perceived information that are designed to motivate us to action, and as such are effectively used in marketing as well.<br /><br /><h3>2.3 The Role of Faith</h3>Faith is just another name for how we use inductive logic in our everyday lives. Faith is what is needed to treat something we inductively derive to be probably true as if it is definitely true. For example, when we step in an elevator there is a small probability that it will fall, but because we have faith it will work we treat it as if it will definitely work and don't give it a second thought.<br /><br />Faith to follow a creator consists of two different parts. &nbsp;First, we must believe a creator exists and, secondly, we must believe the creator is good and worth following.<br /><br /><h3>2.4 How to Choose your Beliefs</h3>There is only one valid way to choose your beliefs: Determine the set of beliefs that are most likely to be true. &nbsp;The Bible is a claim to an accurate history of the world.<br /><br /><h3>2.5 Atheism, Agnosticism and Universalism</h3>Since faith by definition means less than 100% certainty, all believers are in some sense agnostics. &nbsp;All <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism">agnostics</a> by necessity must act as if a particular set of beliefs is true and many choose to act as if Atheism is true.<br /><br /><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism">Atheism</a> (God does not exist) many times leads to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism">Pantheism</a> (God is everything), which many times leads to&nbsp;<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheism">Polytheism</a> (gods are whatever is most honorable/powerful). Note that these are each philosophical beliefs and have in common no actual claim of a written historical record. &nbsp;Most world empires were polytheistic, allowing and integrating various belief systems.<br /><br /><h2> 3. Communication</h2><h3>3.1 Prayer</h3><i>Private Prayer:</i><br />Prayer was originally intended to be a two way discussion between God and Man. &nbsp;Unlike animals, Man is geared to have communication with his creator. &nbsp;Since God seems to be hiding somewhat and typically does not speak back currently, at this time the main practical value of prayer is in thinking through/articulating issues and in helping people give up worrying by reminding them that God values them and He is in control of their situation even in situations of failure or death. &nbsp;While there may be value in repeatedly begging for things that we desperately need, in the rich West most prayers are for convenience rather than for desperate necessity. <br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v7UZ5s2Wmug/WPJvalb7qzI/AAAAAAAAoUY/TvdzH_b7aaoZh6bZgV-8QVgz2Q45EUvEQCLcB/s1600/stamp_text_11289%2B-%2BToo%2BRadical.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="75" src="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v7UZ5s2Wmug/WPJvalb7qzI/AAAAAAAAoUY/TvdzH_b7aaoZh6bZgV-8QVgz2Q45EUvEQCLcB/s200/stamp_text_11289%2B-%2BToo%2BRadical.png" width="200" /></a></div><i>Public Prayer:</i><br />Many times public prayer is used for the practical purposes of maintaining a sense of group unity, making people feel they are in touch with God and/or demonstrating the oratory skills of the leader. &nbsp;The Biblical command to pray in secret rather than in public is meant to apply to good leaders with good intentions, not just those actually intending to use their public prayers just for marketing purposes. &nbsp;Distinctions should be made between various types of "prayer", including making requests, giving thanks to God, worshiping, and giving a blessing to someone.<br /><br /><h3>3.2 Teaching, Preaching and Evangelism</h3>Teaching, preaching and evangelism are all forms of education, which includes both providing information and, perhaps more importantly, providing motivation to the learner. As with all learning we should enable self-directed learning, offer "bite sized chunks" of information and in some way to validate to others the knowledge they have gained. We should get away from pastor/teacher-focused (sage on the stage) education and move to self-directed (guide on the side) project-based, non-repetitive, learner-focused education with a purpose.<br /><br />In many cases short term mission trips benefit the short term missionary more than the places they visit. &nbsp;Foreign countries benefit from temporary access to Western money, industry and education, whereas the missionary benefits from seeing first hand the value of that access. &nbsp;To truly benefit the country requires indigenous missionaries who over time build up community, trade and education locally rather than just giving temporary access to those resources in the West.<br /><div><br /><h2>4. Philosophy/Theology and Theoretical Science</h2><h3>4.1 The Books of the Bible</h3>The books collated into the Bible, in addition to containing history, also include the philosophical/theological concepts to use to interpret how history can be applied to make future decisions. Most of the concepts are qualitative rather than quantitative.<br /><br /><h3>4.2 Observational Science</h3>Most information determined from Observational Science is quantitative, so most of theoretical science is determining quantitative formulas to predict what will happen in the future. Scientists are good at determining what formulas fit historical numerical patterns, but they are sometimes not as good at providing a well-reasoned qualitative interpretation of, at a foundational level, what their valid formulas mean.</div><div><br /><h3><span style="font-family: &quot;times&quot; , &quot;times new roman&quot; , serif; font-size: small;">4.3 Church Practices</span></h3><h3></h3><div><h3><span style="font-family: &quot;times&quot; , &quot;times new roman&quot; , serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">4.3.1 Baptism</span></h3></div>Baptism is intended to be a physical demonstration of our willingness, as followers of Jesus, to sacrifice our lives, as Jesus did, to do what is right.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">4.3.2 Communion</span></h3>Communion is intended to be a reminder of our commitment, as followers of Jesus, to sacrifice our lives as needed to do what is right. As we remember Jesus we also remember that to be a "follower of Jesus" means we are willing to die, as Jesus did, for what is right.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">4.3.3 Music and Motivational Speech</span></h3>Music and motivational speaking is used to build emotion/motivation. &nbsp;The Holy Spirit functions to train emotions to motivate gaining value. &nbsp;Virtues are those habits that typically maximize value, trade and community. &nbsp;Music and motivational speech can either build motivation toward virtue or they can be an emotional substitute for focusing on virtue.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">4.3.4 Interpreting Paul - Tongues and Meat Sacrificed to Idols</span></h3>Peter says that what Paul writes is sometimes hard to understand. &nbsp;This is because Paul is nuanced in his thinking and tries to agree as much as possible with the opposing argument before arguing the opposite. &nbsp;So, for example, Paul seems to be arguing for eating meat sacrificed to idols before he says he would never do that and we shouldn't either.<br /><br />Paul was asked if "Speaking in Tongues" that no one understood was valid or a false practice that should be banned, though some claimed that this might be languages of angels. &nbsp;Knowing that no one can prove a negative, instead of banning the practice Paul wisely said to focus on the original intent of transferring information to people who don't speak your language and to focus on other gifts. &nbsp;Paul identifies with the people who want to speak in tongues since they are motivated to do something good, but then argues to focus their desire elsewhere. &nbsp;Today, Charismatic churches miss Paul's point in this chapter, and many anti-Charismatic churches miss Paul's attempt to address the issue without having to prove a negative.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">4.3.5 Tithing and Giving</span></h3>Tithing was the giving of a crop harvest, not giving coinage/money. &nbsp;This tithe was to replace the harvest that Levites would have received if they had spent the year farming instead of working in Jewish service in the temple. &nbsp;Part of the tithe was to be used for a feast and to purchase&nbsp;<a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14%3A24-26&amp;version=NASB">strong drink</a>.<br /><br />Today referencing the tithe is an easy way to help fund Christian projects. &nbsp;Instead, Christians should pay only their fair share of projects they have freely committed to help support. &nbsp;As members of a church, they should cheerfully support their portion of what is needed to support the workers, though many organizations may be overstaffed and overbuilt.<br /><a href="https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-58EYPExpZjs/WPJuuztNrxI/AAAAAAAAoUc/lHkh7wNc_3c-rQXMrQZ2FoPBNfc9wCrTwCEw/s1600/locked_text_11053%2B-%2BChristians.png" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" height="110" src="https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-58EYPExpZjs/WPJuuztNrxI/AAAAAAAAoUc/lHkh7wNc_3c-rQXMrQZ2FoPBNfc9wCrTwCEw/s200/locked_text_11053%2B-%2BChristians.png" width="200" /></a><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">4.4 Mysticism</span></h3>Mysticism is used in place of reason when people want to deal with certainties rather than probabilities where they don't have enough information. Mysticism should be rejected in favor of reason.<br /><div><br /></div><h2>5. Intelligence (Who)</h2><h3>5.1 Humans</h3>We are not our bodies, but our ways of thinking. Cut off any part of the body other than our brain and we can still be ourselves. We can be thought of as one individual, but we can also be defined by the "sets of ways of thinking" that we hold to. Conversely, the different "sets of ways of thinking" can be considered different "individuals" in our mind. This is the way that people can be "filled with the Holy Spirit" or "possessed by demons". We can be thought of in two ways at the same time: We are both whole individuals that persist over time, but we are also subsets of ideas that can change over time.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">5.1.1 Races </span></h3>The characteristics that separate races are superficial. Genetically, to reduce genetic defects it is healthiest to intermarry with people who are the furthest genetically from us. Different cultures can have better or worse social standards, so we should take the best traits of each culture.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">5.1.2 Gender Roles</span></h3>Both genders are equally valuable but each gender is in general designed to be better at different tasks. Just as we should be caring of people with physical struggles, we should be caring for people with gender identity struggles. We should work to maximize freedom even when we believe others are in error. But, freedom also means not trying to force people to believe that gender identity or gender attractions that don't match genetics are normative.<br /><br /><h3>5.2 God</h3>God is eternal and the designer of the Universe, which is not eternal. If "something" cannot come from "nothing", then the only other alternative would be for the creation to be eternal. In either case, something has to be eternal. <br /><br /><h3>5.3 Holy Spirit</h3>The result of having the Holy Spirit being in our minds is a strong motivation because we are convinced we are trying to do the right thing. As we change our minds and habits to become more holy, doing what is right can become strongly motivational. So, it is valid to look at the Holy Spirit in two ways: as the person of the Holy Spirit inhabiting a subset of our mind, while at the same time saying that sets of ideas are changing our minds to motivate us to be more holy, whatever the cost.<br /><br /><h3>5.4 Jesus</h3>Jesus is the example of sacrifice, to the point of being willing to die, that we as followers of Jesus are committed to following. His ways of thinking fully matched God's ways of thinking as well as the Holy Spirit's ways of thinking.<br /><br /><h3>5.5 Angels and Demons</h3>Angel means "messenger". These messengers can apparently be given bodies but they don't necessarily need physical bodies. On the other hand, there is no example of Demons existing anywhere other than inside minds, either human or animal. Demon possession can be thought of in two ways: either as a set of bad ideas that should be rejected as not one's own, or, as another individual inhabiting a subset of a mind.<br /><br /><h3>5.6 Animals</h3>Animal's minds apparently cannot conceive of symbolic language or ideas, but never the less God does make a&nbsp;<a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%202:18">covenant with the animals</a> as well. &nbsp;Animal sacrifices were designed to bring out the emotion of sadness and to motivate a changed life. &nbsp;In the future when God puts an end to war, he will also cause <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+11%3A6-9">animals to become herbivores</a>. <br /><br />Before the Flood people only ate plants, and, in the future animals will no longer be killed/eaten. &nbsp;So while we are currently allowed to eat meat, especially in areas/times that don't support farming or gathering, meat eating apparently wasn't intended to be normative. &nbsp;Also, a whole foods plant based diet seems to, in most cases, prevent vascular diseases, the leading cause of death in western diets.<br /><br /><h3>5.7 Plants</h3>While plants can react to their environment they do not have central minds that process, store or communicate information.<br /><br /><h2>6. History (When)</h2><h3>6.1 Time</h3>Time is just our "perception of change". What we call the "past" is our current memories and what we call the "future" is our current mental plans. So God did not create "time" itself but rather He created the regularly recurring changes we use as "clocks" to measure the passage of other changes, which is how we commonly think of "time". So, the Relativity Theory formulas describe human/device perceptions rather than what is actually happening in space independent of the observing person/device.<br /><br /><h3>6.2 Our Origin</h3><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.2.1 Freedom of Choice</span></h3>God didn't have to give Adam and Eve freedom to choose from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. By giving them that choice it shows that God believes that maintaining freedom of choice is more important than maintaining an ideal society, though he is working to provide both.<br /><br />Evil is not the opposite of good. &nbsp;Rather, Evil is striving to obtain a supposedly better, but actually non-existent, utopia by means of force. &nbsp;In other words, Evil is when we are prideful enough to think we know better than the designer.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.2.2 Good Society</span></h3>The Garden of Eden was the initially intended society, at least for individual families. We should each be able to rely on nature for our necessities rather than solely relying on others in society. Even if we live in cities we should be able to, if necessary, move to a location and become self-sufficient in the necessities. Otherwise we effectively become slaves to our society.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.2.3 Origin of Death and Suffering</span></h3>Death and suffering motivates us to want a world where there is no death or suffering. Death is not the end but it symbolizes ultimate sacrifice. If Adam and Eve were perfectly willing to die rather than eat the fruit then they would never have eaten, regardless of the amount of time.<br /><br /><h3>6.3 History</h3><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.3.1 Freedom of Choice</span></h3>The wide variety of societies over history are needed to allow different societies to make varying choices to, in the end, demonstrate that God's way of setting up society is the best.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.3.2 Good Society</span></h3>The goal of history is to show how to set up the best society.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.3.3 History of Death and Suffering</span></h3>Societies that try to use force to set up the ideal Utopian society typically end up causing the most death and suffering. Societies that work to maximize freedom end up creating the best societies.<br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.3.4 Historical Governments</span></h3><h3><span style="font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">6.3.4.1 Before the Flood</span></h3>Violence was so bad before the Flood that society needed to be ended and started over.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: &quot;times&quot; , &quot;times new roman&quot; , serif; font-size: small;">6.3.4.2 Sumer</span></span></h3>All the key events in the book of Genesis are found in some form in&nbsp;<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer">Sumerian</a>&nbsp;mythology/history. &nbsp;Abraham left the corruption of Sumer to found a new society.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-family: &quot;times&quot; , &quot;times new roman&quot; , serif; font-size: small;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">6.3.4.3 Egypt</span></span></h3>Moses rejected the mythology of Egypt in favor of the history that Sumerian myths were based on. The Israelites left the corruption of Egypt to recreate a society more similar to the Garden of Eden, as Abraham had done before them.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">6.3.4.4 Israel</span></h3>Israel was intended as an example of a group of people following God, but the intent was to maintain freedom. High value was placed on not becoming a slave to work. Moses says he never took anyone's donkey, so government infrastructure was minimal. Samuel said God wasn't pleased that Israel asked for a King who would build an army, amass wealth and go to war. Much of Genesis is written to show the problems of society without a law to guide the people and to justify submitting to the laws in the Torah. The temple and the sacrifices were initially needed as physical symbols, but were not ultimately what God wanted.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">6.3.4.5 Roman Empire</span></h3>Today the West is a descendant of the Roman Empire rather than being a descendant of Israel. We follow the example intended by Israel and their laws but we were not intended to be under the same laws as Israel.<br /><div><br /></div><h3>6.4 The Future</h3><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.4.1 Freedom of Choice</span></h3>Heaven and Hell is the separation of people who are willing to sacrifice themselves to follow God from those who are not willing to do that. People who make good choices will create a good society (Heaven) and those who make bad choices will create a very bad society (Hell). Also, God is not required to make the world work just as well for those who do not follow Him. So Hell is a very bad place even without the need for God to eternally torture people in Hell.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.4.2 Good Society</span></h3>Heaven is a place where freedom of choice is maintained but those in Heaven have shown that they naturally will choose to do what is right. Good relationships and good societies are both forms of good "trade". "Virtues" are just <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic">heuristics</a> that generally promote good "trade", good relationships and good societies.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">6.4.3 Future of Death and Suffering</span></h3>Death and suffering were not originally intended but are useful to motivate us to want a future world without death and suffering. Even though death is not the end, it is symbolic of making the ultimate sacrifice as followers of Jesus. &nbsp;Since death is not the end then at some point it will no longer be an issue.<br /><br /><h2>7. The Universe (Where)</h2><h3>7.1 Supernatural, Simplicity/Complexity and Substitutes</h3>There is no actual difference between "natural" and "supernatural". If something is re-creatable we call it natural and if we can't re-create something we call it supernatural. Natural objects hide complexity and interact with simplicity. Since the designer has a broader view of how things should work, in general, doing things naturally is the best method. There are two kinds of substitutes for nature. One kind of substitute is a good substitute for areas where we cannot do something naturally (such as exercise when we can't do hard labor). A bad kind of substitute is where we think we are improving on nature, trying to maximize superficial traits at the cost of more important traits.<br /><br /><h3>7.2 Miracles</h3>We call something a miracle if it isn't repeatable and we don't understand the mechanism. Once we understand the mechanism or can repeat the event we call it natural rather than a miracle. Since we can't repeat or understand everything, by definition some miracles are possible.<br /><br /><h2>8. Goals (Why)</h2><h3>8.1 Value, Motivation</h3><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.1.1 Honor/Worship</span></h3>To worship is to ascribe value to something, not just singing or adoring as the term "worship" is commonly understood. Worship is important because when we increase the value we ascribe to God we are also therefore increasing the value ascribed to His creation and to human life. Value is a perception which is only partly based on usefulness. We many times derive our value from the perception of others around us, so it is important to surround ourselves with people who value us and to remind ourselves that God values us and others highly.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.1.2 Happiness/Enjoyment</span></h3>True happiness comes from knowing we are doing the right thing, even if that causes short term pain. Short term pleasure can at the same time be causing unhappiness.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.1.3 Faith, Hope and Love</span></h3>Faith, Hope and Love all have in common embracing risk. Faith allows us to live in a world of current risks. Hope motivates us to act as if the future will be better even when there is risk of failure, pain and death. Love gives to others even when there is a risk that giving will not be reciprocated.<br /><br /><h3>8.2 Freedom (How)</h3><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.2.1 Providence and Free Will</span></h3>God has full control but we also have full free will. Which one we perceive is just a matter of how much information we have. If God controls all the forces on dice being rolled then he also controls the outcome of the roll. &nbsp;But, if we don't see how he is controlling those forces then the outcome looks random to us.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.2.2 Virtues, Repentance, Justification, and Sanctification</span></h3>Something isn't virtuous because God commands it but rather, by nature, he commands what He knows, as the designer, is virtuous. Repentance is a decision rather than a "work". Once we repent we are justified but it may take time to train the habits of the various virtues. That learning/growth process is called sanctification.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.2.3 Forgiveness</span></h3>We are forgiven when we try to turn away from doing wrong and we decide to follow the example of Jesus. Forgiveness should be continually offered (for one reason, harboring un-forgiveness hurts the person who was wronged), but the actual benefit of forgiveness isn't actually received by the wrongdoer until they turn from doing the wrong.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.2.4 Excommunication</span></h3>We should have freedom of association and of disassociation. We need to make it clear what groups believe and disassociate in a friendly way from those who believe differently in key areas so that outsiders can see clear distinctions between groups. But we should always be open to trade with others who have opposing beliefs in order to maximize value.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.2.5 Work and Rest</span></h3>A day of rest is important so that we don't become slaves to our work. Rest is more enjoyable when we feel we have accomplished something valuable from our work. Many times we can do better thinking and planning during times of rest such that, even with a time of rest, we are more productive than if we worked constantly.<br /><br /><h3>8.3 Good Society (How)</h3><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.3.1 Liberty</span></h3>Value is determined by the free determination of others around us. &nbsp;So, freedom of choice is required for worship and love to be of any value.<br /><br />Use of force should be limited to defending oneself and one's property. &nbsp;Instead of force, persuasion and trade should be used to get others to do what you want them to do. &nbsp;The striking of children or the extremely elderly for training or deterrence is a form of force that should be replaced with education, persuasion and trade.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.3.2 Education</span></h3>To make truly free choices we must have correct and accurate information. So, freedom of education is foundational to freedom of choice. Therefore, in a perfect world education should not be provided/regulated by the state through forced taxation.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.3.3 Leaders and Councils</span></h3>Following the collective wisdom of leaders and councils is very helpful, but we must not follow leaders/councils blindly and we must retain our freedom of choice without coercion. &nbsp;Leaders have conflicts of interest in that they need to maintain control, promote unity and restrain dissent. &nbsp;Also, all professionals have a conflict of interest in that they get more value from people continuing to be dependent on them than from training people to be self-sufficient without their ongoing services.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.3.4 Laws</span></h3>Laws, rules, standards, best practices, virtues, ethics, suggestions, etc.. are in essence all the same. Each are ways of educating/motivating people concerning practices that maximize the likelihood of good trade, relationships and society. &nbsp;Laws differ only in that they have law enforcement attached to coerce people to follow the practices deemed by the state to be laws. &nbsp;If we have a focus on trying to have good trade, relationships and societies then we will naturally do what is in the laws.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.3.5 Contracts</span></h3>Trade increases the value to both parties in the trade. Trade over time requires trust in the commitment to deliver the value at a later time. So, to maximize value we must honor our contracts.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.3.6 Marriage</span></h3>Marriage is a freely entered into contract to deliver value over time. Therefore, marriage should not be regulated by the state but rather it should be affirmed/dis-affirmed by families, churches and/or other social organizations.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.3.7 Church</span></h3>Church was intended to be individuals getting together for a shared purpose, much like home education groups function today. But, to maintain unity and to maximize the likelihood of success of the group, churches and denominations over time have naturally put into place organizational <br />leadership, structures, rituals and mysticism that focuses on maintaining the unity and success of the group. Rather than being centrally lecture-focused and leader-focused, churches should be decentralized, with a project and team focus.<br /><br /><h3><span style="font-size: small;">8.3.8 Belief Systems</span></h3>All belief systems have some form of wisdom, but we still need to decide what is true and what is not true in each belief system.</div><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2016/06/the-west-texas-confession.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)0Midland, TX, USA31.9973456 -102.0779145999999931.7819601 -102.40063809999998 32.2127311 -101.75519109999999tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-8263447603683175111Wed, 12 Mar 2014 23:23:00 +00002014-09-04T23:27:15.088-05:00HinduismYogaChristian Yoga - The Missing Manual<a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2P5FWw7_lGU/UyDQt7xLkmI/AAAAAAAAAuk/iDOV3PVFPtY/s1600/Lenten+Yoga.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2P5FWw7_lGU/UyDQt7xLkmI/AAAAAAAAAuk/iDOV3PVFPtY/s1600/Lenten+Yoga.jpg" height="320" width="203" /></a>I first became aware that the Christian college where I work offers a Yoga class back in 2008 so <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/09/wheaton-college-yoga-class.html">I began researching the topic</a>. &nbsp;I ended up visiting Yoga classes at the <a href="http://www.sos.org/">Science of Spirituality</a>, <a href="http://www.theosophical.org/">Theosophical Society</a> and the local <a href="http://htgc.org/Home/index.php">Hindu Temple</a>&nbsp;to compare their practices and teachings. &nbsp;The Yoga class at the&nbsp;Hindu temple was the most interesting and that motivated me to learn more about Yoga from the Hindu perspective. &nbsp;A <a href="http://www.moodyradio.org/brd_ProgramDetail.aspx?id=106213">May 2013 episode</a>&nbsp;(51 minutes) of the Moody Radio show "Up for Debate" on Christian use of Yoga referenced my hands-on research of this topic.<br /><br />In my initial thinking, <b>I used two arguments</b> that Christians should refrain from Yoga (which I think are still valid, but I now think there is a better way to address this question):<br /><div><br /></div><div><b>1. </b><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+8">Paul argued</a> that while eating <b>meat sacrificed to idols</b> was technically O.K. since idols aren't real (similar to how Yoga is technically O.K. because it is just stretching), he said he wouldn't do it because it could confuse others (my paraphrase). &nbsp;Also, note that at least two other passages (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+21%3A25&amp;version=NASB">Acts 21:25</a>, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2:14&amp;version=NASB">Rev 2:14</a>) seem to condemn Christians eating meat sacrificed to idols.<br /><br /></div><div><b>2.</b> The <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?version=NASB&amp;search=high+places+were+not+taken+away&amp;searchtype=all&amp;language1=en&amp;spanbegin=1&amp;spanend=73">writer of the book of Kings argued</a> against worshiping God at <b>high places</b>, where the other religions were worshiping. &nbsp;If you think about it, going up a mountain to worship God requires physical labor (like Yoga), the air is a little thinner so possibly making people at little light headed after climbing (somewhat similar to and including an adrenaline high), and the view is awesome. &nbsp;Those characteristics help motivate people to think about the big picture (the "mountain top experience", or more simply, a "high"). So it would be easy to think you are getting a spiritual experience on top of a mountain,&nbsp;substituting for a focus on Truth. <b>I like this analogy because it says leaders who were <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?version=NASB&amp;search=high+places+were+not+taken+away&amp;searchtype=all&amp;language1=en&amp;spanbegin=1&amp;spanend=73">wholly devoted to God</a>&nbsp;nevertheless did not take down the high places, leading to a situation a few generations later where <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+19%3A10%2C+19%3A18&amp;version=NASB">most of the society rejected God</a>.</b></div><div><a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuarthines/4408706442/sizes/o/in/photolist-7HzLQ3-hUqLFR-hUrb43-8rSUik-hYNKFs-8M9tsK-i4hszc-co6Sfo-a2afKA-gxiN9Z-d3MPHS-9GBpfN-9LPBnH-i7ezqA-9WWvzG-d3MfTJ-857Lrm-hXiveA-bQ9kSp-fo3rhX-kQZ7MP-dkh3Mi-dEQpbD-9gdMJi-hUu5rJ-hUuFei-fcaXtp-hUtV4h-hUraGm-8nLjda-fAwX92-8rtxGa-8i84B3/" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img alt="https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuarthines/4408706442/sizes/o/in/photolist-7HzLQ3-hUqLFR-hUrb43-8rSUik-hYNKFs-8M9tsK-i4hszc-co6Sfo-a2afKA-gxiN9Z-d3MPHS-9GBpfN-9LPBnH-i7ezqA-9WWvzG-d3MfTJ-857Lrm-hXiveA-bQ9kSp-fo3rhX-kQZ7MP-dkh3Mi-dEQpbD-9gdMJi-hUu5rJ-hUuFei-fcaXtp-hUtV4h-hUraGm-8nLjda-fAwX92-8rtxGa-8i84B3/" border="0" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DFI758-azis/UyDm-K2CbYI/AAAAAAAAAu0/mGweRz1Qnyw/s1600/Mountain+Top+Experience.jpg" height="132" title="" width="200" /></a></div><div><br />But I ended up deciding that <b>the best method</b> of addressing this question might be to argue that if you are a Christian considering or practicing Yoga, then I would suggest that you should <b>learn more about the Hindu history and philosophy of Yoga directly from Hindus</b> so that you can make good decisions on this topic. &nbsp;That is what this blog post is intended to help you do. &nbsp;So, this is my attempt at a "missing manual" for Christians considering Yoga.</div><div><br /></div><div>Now, six years later, the college is offering "<i>Lenten Yoga: a contemplative practice for the Lenten Season</i>", which has motivated me to make this updated post. &nbsp;Also, now I see that there are more Hindu discussions of the meaning of Yoga on YouTube which were not available when I did my initial blog post six years ago. &nbsp;So, now you can get the information directly from Hindu sources. &nbsp;<b>If you watch the three following videos, you will understand more about Yoga than probably 99% of westerners.</b></div><div><br /></div><div><b>1.</b> Here is a set of videos discussing the possible future merging of Christianity, Hinduism and Atheism, followed by a discussion of atheists and Christians using Yoga for health benefits at first, then graduating to an understanding of the spiritual meanings/benefits of Yoga (17 minutes). &nbsp;I also added a video clip on the end of Billy Graham discussing his <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusivism">inclusivist</a> beliefs (which says good people of all belief systems are chosen to go to Heaven, which is similar to but a little different than <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism#Christian_Universalism">Universalist</a> beliefs), which <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emeth">C.S. Lewis</a> also shared (the two most honored Christians at the college where I work):<br /><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="189" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/videoseries?list=PLUvlWQu9vYqgH0ndF4zAA14xIIbuHlOgb" width="336"></iframe></div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><br /><b>2.</b> Here is a video talking about a panel discussion on the topic from Hinduism Today (15 minutes). &nbsp;I also added on the end a video clip of Father Keating discussing how his Christian beliefs (step 1) are transcended by Hindu/Buddhist concepts of Oneness (steps 2 and 3 of the "spiritual journey"):<br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="189" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/videoseries?list=PLUvlWQu9vYqiK5ny8zpNQF-4369IEA74b" width="336"></iframe></div><br /><br /><b>3. </b>Here is a link to buy the below&nbsp;<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Uncoiled-From-East-West/dp/B001RE1X36/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1394661596&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=yoga+uncoiled">video on Yoga philosophy</a> from the Christian perspective. &nbsp;This one isn't a Hindu source, and I don't necessarily agree with all the assertions, such as the Yoga moves themselves having actual spiritual/mystical/demonic implications. &nbsp;Also, I always thought that the idea of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini">Kundalini</a>, being the waking of a sleeping snake at the base of our spine, came from the fact that our intestines look like a coiled snake rather than being a reference to the serpent in Genesis and Revelations. &nbsp;But in any event this Christian author did grow up in India and the video has some very interesting first hand accounts from the Christian perspective (77 minutes):<br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="189" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/videoseries?list=PLUvlWQu9vYqhusSfTYtpM3wIhYGmPIcO6" width="336"></iframe></div><br />If you want more information, check out the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga">Wikipedia article on Yoga</a>, and the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Salutation">origins of the Sun Salutation</a>:&nbsp;"<i>Its origins lie in India where they worship Surya, the Hindu solar deity</i>". &nbsp;Compare that to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+8%3A15-16&amp;version=NASB">Ezekiel 8:15-16</a> where it says:<br /><blockquote class="tr_bq"><i>15 He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? Yet you will see still greater abominations than these.”</i><br /><i>16 Then He brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar,were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun.</i></blockquote>I know that most westerners aren't intending to worship the Sun when they do a sun salutation, but at the Hindu temple they did say during our sun and moon salutations that we were "honoring the Sun" and "honoring the Moon". &nbsp;So I would still suggest thinking about that passage the next time you do a Sun or Moon salutation.<br /><br />I am a Christian <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle">libertarian</a> so I believe that the ten commandments were really talking about how to maintain freedom, through right motivations (don't covet), respect for ownership of yourself (don't kill) and your work (don't steal), and respect for free trade/contracts (no adultery, honor parents, honor God). But to make free choices requires that you have all the information. Now that you have more background information on Yoga you are more free, and also more responsible, to make good decisions.<br /><br />If you aren't a Christian, then perhaps none of this matters. But if you are a Christian who believes the God of the Bible actually exists, then perhaps Pilates or some other categorization of similar stretches might be a way to obtain the same physical benefits without risking disrespecting God. God gives us freedom to do what we believe is best, but choose wisely.<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2014/03/chistian-yoga-missing-manual.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-7940834930359282215Tue, 18 Feb 2014 02:01:00 +00002017-04-02T19:28:41.880-05:00EducationInformation TechnologyLiberal ArtsPhilosophyA Road-map to Self-Directed Christian Liberal Education<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: large;">See the <a href="http://www.theballardmodel.com/2017/04/the-ballard-model-summary.html">current summary</a> of this model at&nbsp;<a href="http://www.theballardmodel.com/">www.theballardmodel.com</a>.</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VFRUAto_FMk/UwK-1ykRA_I/AAAAAAAAAtI/BnVPn31ixaI/s1600/Areas+of+Knowledge+1+of+2+v3.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="400" src="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VFRUAto_FMk/UwK-1ykRA_I/AAAAAAAAAtI/BnVPn31ixaI/s1600/Areas+of+Knowledge+1+of+2+v3.jpg" width="397" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xkdsnvx0BmQ/UwK-1shTdPI/AAAAAAAAAtE/br-9KowGtYU/s1600/Areas+of+Knowledge+2+of+2+v3.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="262" src="https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xkdsnvx0BmQ/UwK-1shTdPI/AAAAAAAAAtE/br-9KowGtYU/s1600/Areas+of+Knowledge+2+of+2+v3.jpg" width="400" /></a></div><br /><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2014/02/a-road-map-to-self-directed-liberal.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-1367225877996376125Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:12:00 +00002014-12-11T17:52:44.619-06:00The "How" of Building an Effective Christian Community<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #1f497d;">I work at a Christian college. &nbsp;A committee was tasked with created a document called "Working in Community" that describes what it looks like to build Community in a Christian workplace. &nbsp;In reading the document, it struck me that the document does a very good job of describing what a successful Christian community looks like, but it doesn't seem to focus on how Biblical concepts actually are the foundation of an effective community. &nbsp;Also, it doesn't indicate how those Biblical concepts are in actuality the same financial and managerial best practices used in all successful organizations, but in a Christian context using Christian lingo.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #1f497d;">Much of the confusion in this area seems to come from differing definitions of terms.&nbsp; I actually view <b>“stewardship” as “delegated ownership” </b>(which includes accountability), whereas most people seem to view stewardship and ownership as opposites.&nbsp; The practical difference is that many people think the Christian view of management is to give up ownership (and therefore to give up control and responsibility), whereas I would argue that an enlightened understanding of wise, delegated ownership is key to building a good community.&nbsp; Many times it is when “ownership” is unclear that people try to force others to do what they think is right rather than trying to persuade or trade to get what they want.&nbsp; Note that the verses in the Bible that seem to argue against “ownership” actually presuppose ownership rights as being valid but then argues that people should trade to obtain greater value.&nbsp; Also, I would argue that the Ten Commandments actually defines ownership.&nbsp; For example, “Do not steal” actually presupposes and defines ownership of physical items to be a valid concept, “Do not kill” defines ownership of our own bodies, etc...<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #1f497d;">Also, I would view the concepts of <b>“community” and “relationships” as actually the same concept as “trade”</b>.&nbsp; Note that trade is two or more people exchanging things (including exchanging time and information) such that, in the aggregate, they each believe they benefit in some way more than it costs them.&nbsp; Healthy trade, community and relationships each increases value to all involved otherwise the trade would cease, the community would fall apart and the relationship would end (or at least it would be an “unhealthy” relationship).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #1f497d;">The reason I am interested in this topic is that these concepts have been of <b>significant value to my household</b>.&nbsp; We have eight kids so it is a necessity to maintain a good family community.&nbsp; What we do when there is conflict is to clarify (delegated) “ownership” of particular areas.&nbsp; So, when an inappropriate form of attempted control (physical, verbal, tantrums, whining, etc..) takes place we first ask who “owns” that decision, then we have the others involved try to persuade the owner and possibly trade with the owner to get what they want/need.&nbsp; So, the only methods of control that we use are persuasion/debate and trade based on ownership.&nbsp; The other <b>methods of control</b>: physical force, punishment, peer pressure, yelling/pouting, tantrums, etc.. are considered to be invalid attempts to control (steal) what other people own.&nbsp; We teach them that to say “please”, “thank you, “yes ma’am”, etc.. is valuable because that indicates to others that they respect their ownership/choices and will not try to force them to do what they want (which intuitively indicates they will be <b>good trading partners</b>).&nbsp; Basically, what I am arguing that the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle">non-aggression principle</a> is just a restatement of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule">golden rule</a>, which is a summary of the Ten Commandments.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #1f497d;">We also teach them that <b>grace/forgiveness</b>is very important (assuming they have the right motives), because they can only be motivated to try to do things well if they are assured that there is acceptance when they fail.&nbsp; Also, <b>emotions</b> are mostly learned “reasoning shortcuts” that motivates us to action of some kind, so emotions should be managed and used for self-motivation.&nbsp; Note that <b>these ideas work the same universally</b> so our relationships don’t have to change when they get out on their own, there is no need for rebellion (hopefully…) and they are also learning how to interact with others at church and in their careers.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><br /><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #1f497d;">So, I would argue that the Biblical concepts of wise delegated ownership (stewardship) and trade (community, relationships) are actually <b>the power behind building a good community</b> and that these concepts are the best way to resolve conflicts.&nbsp; Conflicts can also be resolved by “giving up ownership”, but that also removes control and responsibility, leading to less that optimal solutions and many times more conflict in the future.&nbsp; I sometimes worry that we are good at communicating what godly interactions should look like but that we don’t always communicate well the power of <u>how</u>Biblical concepts promote virtue in the workplace and in communities.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2014/01/the-how-of-building-effective-community.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-8861953205000562384Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:28:00 +00002014-12-11T17:53:35.969-06:00EducationInformation TechnologyLiberal ArtsNew ReformationThe Liberal Arts and the Ideal Christian Educational Institution<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ADRT-p57tMc/UubAKeT2d7I/AAAAAAAAArA/bvig7yBouKk/s1600/Education+Models.gif" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ADRT-p57tMc/UubAKeT2d7I/AAAAAAAAArA/bvig7yBouKk/s1600/Education+Models.gif" height="62" width="200" /></a></div><b><span style="font-size: large;">The ideal education system:</span></b><br />The ideal educational system is arguably one where everyone in the world is prepared with the "methods of thinking”, information, and relationships just before they need them in order to create "value", erring on the side of becoming prepared through education sooner rather than later. It would provide an overview and foundational ”ways of thinking”, information and relationships for all areas of knowledge, both the “Liberal Arts” areas and the (broadly defined) “Technology” areas. It would then also train each person to be an expert in at least one specific area such that they can monetize/trade that expertise with other experts to achieve division of labor/economy of scale and maximize value (note: “value” can be qualitative and does not necessarily mean monetized value).<br /><br /><b><span style="font-size: large;">Historical Trade-offs due to limited educational resources:</span></b><br />The problem is that because of limited time and resources we can’t yet reach that ideal. So the question for educational institutions is: what should we leave off? Trade schools and apprenticeships tend to focus on providing a marketable expertise but they tend to minimize training on foundational/broader technology and liberal arts. General undergraduate colleges that focus on technical degrees tend to focus on overview/foundational technology knowledge, but they tend to minimize training in the liberal arts and don’t typically provide a particular area of expertise (unless someone continues to get their Doctorate). The Liberal Arts colleges focus on the liberal arts, but they tend to minimize foundational/overview knowledge of technology and they don’t normally provide a particular area of expertise. And all colleges historically have focused just on the four college years, pre-caching "ways of thinking”, information and relationships for students during those four years that the faculty expect they will likely need in the future (rather than also providing resources the students could access in a just-in-time manner either before or after those four years of college education).<br /><br /><b><span style="font-size: large;">The current day form of Reformation we are living through:</span></b><br />The Reformation was arguably enabled by the information technology of the day, the printing press, which allowed a few leaders to publish directly to the masses. Today we have technology that allows the masses to publish to the masses. So, if the information technology of the Reformation allowed every man to become his own priest (one form of education/motivation), then the information technology of today is allowing everyone to become their own evangelists (another form of education/motivation). As the Reformation had a significant effect on education and community, so too we are living through an era where we need to take these kinds of systemic changes into account.<br /><br /><span style="font-size: large;"><b>Opportunity to transcend historical trade-offs:</b></span><br />Today Information Technology is bringing a revolution on the order of the Reformation and the printing press, such that we can now get closer to providing the ideal educational system. So, ideally, liberal arts colleges could offer their students overviews/foundational knowledge in both the Liberal Arts and the Technology areas of knowledge (which in fact I think we actually do in many cases, since in reality the Liberal Arts areas of knowledge create “value” by being the foundational supports to the, broadly defined, “Technology” areas of knowledge), as well as at least giving them a plan for obtaining a particular expertise as well. Also, we can help the learning be more broadly “just in time” and global by offering an asynchronous re-branded subset of our services (including access to training, feedback, a community and credentialing) to prospective students, alumni and the general public, including possibly supporting multiple languages.<br /><br />Rather than the concept of the “ideal educational institution” being at odds with the “ideal Liberal Arts college”, instead what I am promoting is to allow the Liberal Arts education to transcend limitations that have been imposed on all three models of education in the past due to lack of available resources and lack of needed information technologies. I would argue that separation of the three types of educational institutions was necessary in the past to provide division of labor/economy of scale to deal with limited educational technologies/resources. But, as educational resources/capabilities increase and limitations are being removed, all three models now have the ability to grow into a combined model that also covers the areas that historically have been provided by the other two. <br /><br />I am not arguing that liberal arts colleges should replace anything that they are doing as a college, because we are doing many things well. And I am not just arguing for online education, since face to face embodied education is the gold standard for many reasons. The disciples undoubtedly received a better face to face education with Jesus than we can get by studying the Bible (a book, which itself is a form of Information Technology). Rather, I am arguing that we need to supplement and expand the concept of our institutions to be closer to the ideal educational institution or we will likely lose out when other institutions expand their services into our areas of strength.<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2014/01/the-liberal-arts-and-ideal-educational.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-3286706989497634840Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:20:00 +00002014-12-11T17:49:42.641-06:00EducationInformation TechnologyLiberal ArtsThe Liberal Arts and Technologies - A New Model<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><b>Please Note:</b> This is an earlier version of my thinking that I have left up for historical reasons. &nbsp;Please see the <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2014/02/a-road-map-to-self-directed-liberal.html">updated model</a>.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">This model of education refines the concepts of the trivium, quadrivium and areas of technology education as follows (it is not really new, just refined and expanded):&nbsp;</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"></div><a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NMiujaHZ1Ks/UvU6jmdSnKI/AAAAAAAAArc/fZCr49iFG10/s1600/The+Areas+of+Knowledge.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NMiujaHZ1Ks/UvU6jmdSnKI/AAAAAAAAArc/fZCr49iFG10/s1600/The+Areas+of+Knowledge.jpg" height="297" width="640" /></a><br />Please note the following implications of this model:<br /><br /><ul><li>The Liberal Arts areas are separated by the “quantitative” and “qualitative” areas (as is the trivium and quadrivium)</li><li>Each area lower on the chart is foundational and prerequisite for each area above it</li><li>The concept of “technology” is more broadly defined than common usage, as being "the methods of doing something of value", and includes the qualitative areas of technology as well as the traditional quantitative-focused technologies (So with this definition we do actually already teach an overview of the various areas of "technology" because there are economic "technologies", social "technologies", etc..)</li><li>In this model, the liberal arts areas have inherent value because they are required foundations to creating value in the (broadly defined) "technologies" areas</li><li>The arts and music are included under the area of “social technologies”. They are special in that they have less restrictions on creative freedom than other technology areas, but they don’t get their own category because all areas of technology should include as much creativity as allowed (such as how architecture/civil engineering doesn't have as much creative freedom as art, for example).</li><li>Education and Communication are special, but they don't get their own areas because they are integral areas of "Information Technologies", in the broadest sense of that term</li><li>Each of the qualitative and quantitative liberal arts areas are interchangeable with their partner by a process of quantification or qualification (i.e., characterization).&nbsp;</li><li>Theoretical science is separated from observational science. Observational science correlates well with recording of history and differs only in that one is quantitative and the other is qualitative.</li><li>Language includes logic/reasoning since logic is qualitative, so language includes both communication and reasoning (and logic is as key as communicating)</li><li>Math includes both quantitative reasoning and communicating, so formula literacy/communication is as key as computation</li></ul><br />Note that this model doesn't directly address the concept of becoming expert in at least one particular area to be able to trade/monetize that expertise with other experts, in order to obtain division of labor/economy of scale and therefore maximize "value" (note: value is not the same as "monetized value"). So learning an overview of the areas of technologies is more akin to learning the liberal arts areas than it is in just training for a career/job.<br /><br />Also, when discussing these “areas of knowledge”, I am actually thinking of the term "knowledge" in the “object oriented” sense (a computing term). So, I am using the term “knowledge” in the broader sense to include “ways of thinking”, information and relationships/connections (“Wisdom” might be a better term, but the term “knowledge” is more commonly used). That correlates well with constructivism, instructivism and connectivism, which correlates well with the human brain (thought, memory, and communication).<br /><br />Using this broader definition of knowledge, what educational institutions do is "pre-cache" (sorry for the computer term) the "ways of thinking", information and relationships/connections/community, that we believe will be useful to the student sometime in the future.<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2014/01/the-liberal-arts-and-technologies-new.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-8292024178539570725Thu, 15 Nov 2012 00:15:00 +00002014-12-11T17:34:10.338-06:00EducationInformation TechnologyA Vision for Information Technology at Christian Colleges<i>This is an academic/philosophical and motivational paper I wrote in 2012 relating to IT and education at a <u>Christian</u> college. &nbsp;I thought I would post it here in case it is of use for others to broaden their view of how IT is strategically related to Christian education. It starts out addressing some of the negative issues that have been associated with IT (rebutting some assertions made in publications from some faculty at my current institution) and then argues that IT is actually integral to education and that IT is enabling a new form of reformation in our generation. &nbsp;</i><br /><i><b><br /></b></i><i><b>Please note:</b>&nbsp;Some references are specific to the history of Wheaton College, such as Wheaton's strong stance against slavery, their initial conflict with Secret Societies, the Beltonian literary/debate society, the founders quote about this era being a "martyr-age", &nbsp;Billy Graham being a prominent Alumnus, and the College Motto being "For Christ and His Kingdom".</i><em style="background-color: white; color: #5c5c5c; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15px;"><br /></em><br /><i><br /></i><br /><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zfu3p7GOmY0/UKQ1HFlRfwI/AAAAAAAAAJg/D3KDWphNWts/s1600/0000+AM+-+Garden+of+Eden.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zfu3p7GOmY0/UKQ1HFlRfwI/AAAAAAAAAJg/D3KDWphNWts/s200/0000+AM+-+Garden+of+Eden.jpg" height="200" width="146" /></a><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Our ancestors were given the ability to eat either from the Tree of Life or from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, but not both.&nbsp; In so doing God held out to them the opportunity of expressing from their hearts either an evil choice or to continue to make good choices.&nbsp; They chose badly.&nbsp; Fast forward to today.&nbsp; In our society we live at a time of both increasing opportunities for doing evil and increasing opportunities for doing good.&nbsp; As technologies, including Information Technology (IT), increase the power available to mankind, we are able to express what is in our hearts, either evil or good, in more powerful ways.&nbsp; Just as the new Information Technology of the printing press was used to mass produce indulgences before it was used to mass produce the Bible<sup>1</sup>, so today <b>we are misusing and neglecting the power of our information technologies</b> to do good.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Our generation has been provided a powerful gift in the form of Information Technology but, <b>on an individual level</b>, our sinful nature causes us to misuse or neglect the benefits of that gift.&nbsp; Pride causes many to care too much about their online image, sometimes neglecting the humility needed to build close personal relationships.&nbsp; Sloth causes many to use IT mostly for recreational reasons rather than being diligent to equip themselves to advance the Kingdom of Christ.&nbsp; Greed contributes to causing some to take on too many online friends, be on too many email lists, try to multi-task too many items without good prioritization of their time and attention, and to neglect the God given periods of rest from the pressures of our life.&nbsp; Impatience causes many to learn topics superficially without taking the time to learn a topic in depth.&nbsp; And impatience may cause us to rush into using a new technology without the proper preparation.&nbsp; Lack of love for truth and wisdom allows opinion and anger to rule the day in many online conversations.&nbsp; But notice that the primary cause of all these problems is the human heart, not the Information Technology.&nbsp; We don’t blame the tree of knowledge of good and evil for the choices of our ancestors.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/puliarfanita/4607380622/" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1277/4607380622_616c318733_b.jpg" height="135" width="200" /></a><b><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">On a community level</span></b><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">, our sinful natures can use Information Technology to cause harm to the community.&nbsp; We should glean wisdom from the Amish Christians, whose views concerning technology have generally been misunderstood<sup>2</sup>.&nbsp; For example, many Amish use genetically modified crops and pesticides because those technologies meet their requirements for easier harvesting and greater yield.&nbsp; While we may disagree with some of their decisions, the Amish are not against technology in general; rather they focus on different requirements and longer term goals.&nbsp; In fact, the Amish may have the most experience of any Christian group in critiquing technology to prevent harm and to promote social virtue because they give a higher priority to avoiding risks to their community. &nbsp;For example, they have a requirement to avoid debt and surety and we would do well to do the same.&nbsp; They will not leave people who are trained in older technologies behind.&nbsp; We should learn from their example by not neglecting training, support and time for people to adjust to new technologies.&nbsp; They do not feel rushed to adopt a new technology until it is thoroughly vetted.&nbsp; We should not neglect thoroughly evaluating technologies and we should encourage talking with peer institutions that have previous experience using each particular technology.&nbsp; The technologies they use must be manageable and repairable over the long term.&nbsp; We should thoroughly consider life-cycle maintenance costs and our degree of dependence on individual vendors.&nbsp; They do not want to become dependent on choices made by the larger society.&nbsp; They want to use what meets their requirements the best, whether it be “low tech” or in some cases “high tech”.&nbsp; They want to be in the world but not of the world<sup>3</sup> because sometimes society in general chooses badly.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/vegaseddie/4353407858/" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2793/4353407858_a8e72ac678_b.jpg" height="133" width="200" /></a><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">God has a history of disciplining societies that continue to choose badly.&nbsp; Perhaps the most likely form of judgment that we may see in our lifetimes is <b>a potential coming economic judgment</b>, a natural result of the greed, impatience and pride of our society.&nbsp; We have gone well beyond wise capital investment and insurance into the areas of unwise consumption debt and surety.&nbsp; Proverbs says that the debtor becomes a slave to the lender<sup>4</sup>.&nbsp; Our federal government currently is in debt over $140,000 per household.&nbsp; If you include the present value of future federal obligations that number rises to $640,000 per household.&nbsp; But if you look at the total debt throughout all of U.S. society, including federal, state, local, commercial and individual debt, the total number come out to be just over $1M per U.S household<sup>5</sup>.&nbsp; We believe we are rich as our credit limits grow, but we are actually poor, enslaved debtors to (currently) generous masters.&nbsp; Proverbs says to flee surety<sup>6</sup>.&nbsp; The problems related to surety are today discussed in fancier terms such as “counter party risk” or “moral hazard”.&nbsp; We have arguably institutionalized the practice of surety in areas such as the FDIC insuring $8.9T in deposits and in the international credit default swap market, currently valued at over $28T<sup>7</sup>.&nbsp; By neglecting the Biblical warnings concerning debt and surety we may be setting ourselves up for economic judgment, potentially causing a significant reduction in our purchasing power.&nbsp; It is unclear whether that may happen tomorrow or after we retire, or whether it will happen suddenly or spread over many years.&nbsp; But, whatever the case, prudence demands that IT planning prepare for the days when our collective bills start to become due.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">IT can help reduce college costs and/or increase productivity</span></b><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">through economies of scale, process optimization, better decision support, automation, and greater use of free or low cost information resources.&nbsp; Also, through providing better mechanisms for marketing, advancement, student recruitment and online sales <b>IT can help increase college revenues</b>.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mythoto/7062800113/" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7216/7062800113_eda2d4c87e_b.jpg" height="144" width="200" /></a><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">But <b>the first order of business for effective use of Information Technology is to answer our Creator’s call to repentance and accept His forgiveness </b>for our pride, greed, impatience, sloth, lack of love for truth and wisdom, and other sins and instead replace those motivations with humility, charity, patience, love of diligence, love of truth and wisdom, as well as the other virtues.&nbsp; But if Information Technologies can be a curse when following sinful desires, <b>Information Technology is a blessing</b> when we work toward truth and the Kingdom of Christ.&nbsp; Information Technology can help us better determine and communicate truths and it can help break down the information barriers between communities.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/26036894@N03/3358543570/" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3471/3358543570_e843dbff98_o.gif" height="62" width="200" /></a><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">Christian colleges need to understand the full nature of information technology, since <b>education itself, in its broadest sense, is a form of Information Technology</b>.&nbsp; It is no accident that the three major components of information technology, <b>storage</b>, <b>processing</b> and <b>networking</b>, correlate well with three leading educational philosophies: <b>instructivism</b> (transferring <u>stored</u>information from teacher to student), <b>constructivism</b>(students “<u>actively assemble</u>” new information from their existing base of information) and <b>connectivism</b>(building <u>connections</u> to information).&nbsp; &nbsp;Also, a liberal arts education is the form of education where we motivate students to cache and index a wide variety of information, including various skills and values, that educators predict will be useful for them at a later time.&nbsp; That is similar to how a computer caches the information and programs that it predicts it will need most in the future.&nbsp; So, in learning and promoting appropriate uses of information technology we are actually learning and promoting the education process itself.&nbsp; In fact education theory and Information Technology theory are both derived from the design of humanity.&nbsp; Cut off any part of the body except for the brain and we can still be alive.&nbsp; So, humans are information based creatures and our foundational brain functions of <b>memory</b>, <b>thinking</b> and <b>perception/communication </b>are at the root of both education and Information Technology.<b><o:p></o:p></b></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tC2NoLtU9AE/UKQ5e-pe-SI/AAAAAAAAAJw/nPyExdUSs98/s1600/College+Money.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tC2NoLtU9AE/UKQ5e-pe-SI/AAAAAAAAAJw/nPyExdUSs98/s200/College+Money.jpg" height="150" width="200" /></a><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">An original goal of most Christian colleges was to <b>offer an affordable education</b> so that anyone, regardless of economic class, could attend.&nbsp; We try to maintain some measure of affordability and accessibility though grants and student work programs, but as with most colleges in today’s society we have lost our ability to offer education to our students without most of them taking on a significant amount of debt.&nbsp; The same characteristics of Information Technology that can help prepare us for economic downturns can help provide a rebranded subset of a Christian education to a broader constituency at a significantly reduced cost, which would in turn help promote, subsidize and maintain the excellent core liberal arts curriculum without compromising the quality of that core curriculum<sup>10</sup>.&nbsp; While maintaining our Liberal Arts distinctives we should follow the lead of Harvard, Yale, Berkley, MIT, Hillsdale and others<sup>11</sup> in the area of opening up our course content to a broader audience<sup>12</sup>.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/gforsythe/8028605773/" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8322/8028605773_857fcd5548_b.jpg" height="200" width="130" /></a><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">In fact, we need to <b>break down any unnecessary barriers to accessing any of our information</b>, whether that be opening up course content to a broader constituency or unlocking our administrative data by providing timely reports, dashboards and alerts to a wide audience.&nbsp; By definition, secret societies limit access to their information in an attempt to increase their mystery and their majesty, but in contrast institutions of education should promote access to their content as far and as wide as possible.&nbsp; By unlocking course information, motivated alumni and friends will have a method of self-improvement provided by the college.&nbsp; Motivated prospective students will have access to the information needed to be better prepared to attend college.&nbsp; Current students will have a tool to better determine which classes they should sign up for. &nbsp;Faculty will be better able to integrate and link information between courses and K-12 and graduate institutions will be able to reference course information in their classes.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"><br /></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">Information Technology can enable location independence, providing support for the <b>globalization of a Christian education.&nbsp; </b>We have the ability to offer our services remotely to students traveling abroad and we can easily bring in guest lecturers remotely, allowing students to see more differing perspectives and <b>promoting a culture of discussion and debate</b> as existed in the early college literary societies.<o:p></o:p></span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%;">Using Information Technology we can offer a subset of our services to the world, without regard for race, nationality, gender or economic class. A Christian college’s ultimate goal is not limited to educating and graduating a few hundred seniors per year and launching those individuals to go out and affect society, but rather a summary of </span><b style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%;">the ultimate goal of a Christian college is, as an educational institution, to affect society and the world for Christ and his Kingdom, using any means it has at its disposal</b><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 115%;">.&nbsp; How can we say that we support social justice if we hide away from outsiders our most valuable resources, the knowledge and experience of the faculty, when it is in our power to make their knowledge widely available to people of all countries around the world?&nbsp;</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"></span><br /><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: left; text-align: left;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2O6pwzcu30s/UKQ6XqQ-N1I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/gRR-HOjkWtA/s1600/5440+AM+-+Gutenberg+Press.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2O6pwzcu30s/UKQ6XqQ-N1I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/gRR-HOjkWtA/s200/5440+AM+-+Gutenberg+Press.jpg" height="200" width="189" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Replica of First Printing Press</td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">It was the Information Technology of creating scrolls that has given us the Bible, as well as giving us the counterfeit gnostic gospel scrolls, but ownership of scrolls was limited only to a few.&nbsp; During the reformation it was the Information Technology of the printing press that enabled both the reformation and the counter-reformation, and both movements were based on a few leaders publishing to the masses.&nbsp; Today’s Information Technologies of the Internet allow for a new era of evangelism, both for Christianity and for competing belief systems.&nbsp; Beginning with the reformation anyone could receive publications from competing experts and judge issues for themselves, effectively bypassing the monopoly of a face-to-face education from the priests.&nbsp; Today anyone can become their own publisher using Facebook, Twitter, blogs and multiple other forms of self-publishing.&nbsp; <b>If the Information Technology of the reformation allowed every man to become his own priest, then the Information Technology of today allows anyone to become their own evangelist. </b>&nbsp;A display on the second floor of Blanchard Hall at Wheaton College graphically illustrates the dwindling number of graduates who choose to go into full time missionary service.&nbsp; By providing our students with not only core knowledge but also with the Information Technology tools and skills they need to open their vendor’s booth in today’s marketplace of ideas, we can turn all of our students into lifetime missionaries/evangelists, equipped to each potentially become their own Billy Graham.&nbsp; And by leveraging the scalability of Information Technology we have it in our ability to also help equip our alumni, staff and friends to be better prepared to participate in today’s battle of ideas.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"></span><br /><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; text-align: right;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zYBIxtEs5sY/UKQ6a2vnnOI/AAAAAAAAAKA/1D70xTix1B8/s1600/5517+AM+-+95+Theses.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zYBIxtEs5sY/UKQ6a2vnnOI/AAAAAAAAAKA/1D70xTix1B8/s200/5517+AM+-+95+Theses.JPG" height="200" width="150" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">95 Theses were Nailed Here</td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">So,<b> renew your zeal for a new era of reformation: based on truth, and overcoming barriers to information, enabling a new era of personal and institutional evangelism.</b>&nbsp; If our society is to eventually come under judgment then we need to prepare to become even more of a martyr-age<sup>13</sup>institution, including effectively using all of the Information Technology tools at our disposal.&nbsp; So, turn off the TV, stop your frivolous texting, stop reading the latest novel, sell your computer games on eBay, and start using all of your time, talents and technology in the service of truth.&nbsp; Look at your hands and your feet and take it to heart that those hands and those feet will be rotting in the ground someday, until the resurrection comes.&nbsp; But your soul lives on and that soul maintains its memory, thinking and perception/communication capabilities and so the concepts underlying Information Technology and education are also of transcendent and eternal value.&nbsp; So repent, accept His forgiveness and enlarge your vision for what you will do with the fleeting few moments remaining of your fleeting life in this world and in this age.&nbsp; Significant challenges and opportunities lay before us but could it be that each of us were placed where we are today for such a time as this<sup>14</sup>.&nbsp; Remove anything that wastes your time, your focus or your resources and use what little time remains to renew again your commitment to work in this age for Christ and His Kingdom.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12.0pt; line-height: 115%;">&nbsp;<u>References:<o:p></o:p></u></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal"><sup>1 </sup><a href="http://www.bl.uk/treasures/gutenberg/indulgences.html">http://www.bl.uk/treasures/gutenberg/indulgences.html</a>Indulgences were printing on the printing press from the earliest days of the printing press<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 12.0pt;"><sup>2</sup> <a href="http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2009/02/amish_hackers_a.php">http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2009/02/amish_hackers_a.php</a>A discussion of Amish views towards technology<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 12.0pt;"><sup>3 </sup><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+17%3A15-16&amp;version=NASB">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+17%3A15-16&amp;version=NASB</a><i>“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.”<o:p></o:p></i></div><div class="MsoNormal"><sup>4</sup> <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A7&amp;version=NASB">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A7&amp;version=NASB</a> <i>“The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower becomes the lender’s slave.”</i><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><sup>5</sup> <a href="http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html">http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html</a> for number of households (114M households as of 2010)<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><a href="http://www.usdebtclock.org/">http://www.usdebtclock.org/</a> for current federal debt ($16,026B as of 10/2012)<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><a href="http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-06-06-us-debt-chart-medicare-social-security_n.htm">http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-06-06-us-debt-chart-medicare-social-security_n.htm</a> for federal obligations, not including federal debt ($57,000B as of 6/2011)<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><a href="http://www.usdebtclock.org/">http://www.usdebtclock.org/</a> for total U.S. Societal debt, including federal debt and obligations ($58,587B as of 10/2012)<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 12.0pt;"><sup>6</sup> <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%206:1-5&amp;version=NASB">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%206:1-5&amp;version=NASB</a> “<i>My son, if you have become surety for your neighbor, Have given a pledge for a stranger, If you have been snared with the words of your mouth, Have been caught with the words of your mouth, Do this then, my son, and deliver yourself;&nbsp; Since you have come into the hand of your neighbor, Go, humble yourself, and importune your neighbor. Give no sleep to your eyes, Nor slumber to your eyelids; Deliver yourself like a gazelle from the hunter’s hand And like a bird from the hand of the fowler.”</i><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><sup>7</sup> <a href="http://www2.fdic.gov/sod/createStat.asp?System=SOD&amp;Item=ddep">http://www2.fdic.gov/sod/createStat.asp?System=SOD&amp;Item=ddep</a>($8.9T in FDIC insured deposits as of 2012)<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><a href="http://www.bis.org/statistics/otcder/dt1920a.pdf">http://www.bis.org/statistics/otcder/dt1920a.pdf</a>&nbsp; ($28T in Credit Default Swaps worldwide as of 12/2011)<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 12.0pt;"><sup>10</sup> <a href="http://open-ed.nitle.org/?page_id=36">http://open-ed.nitle.org/?page_id=36</a><i>“Higher education in 2012 seems to be on the brink of disruption, given rising costs, emerging technologies, competition from for-profits, global education, and other often-cited forces. Leaders of elite liberal arts colleges express concern that their business model, which typically involves high costs to deliver small, intimate face-to-face classes, may not be sustainable.[1] Open education ranks among those disruptive forces confronting colleges. For example, as Jon Breitenbucher (College of Wooster) argues, MOOCs may threaten liberal arts colleges by offering “extremely low cost options for obtaining skills” and replacing grades with more flexible, open means of assessment.[2] However, Breintenbucher also suggests that liberal arts institutions may be able to adapt to this challenge by adopting a “symbiotic relationship with open education resources,” so that faculty focus more on guiding learning than on delivering content.”</i><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><sup>11</sup> <a href="http://www.extension.harvard.edu/open-learning-initiative">http://www.extension.harvard.edu/open-learning-initiative</a>Harvard Open Learning Initiative<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><a href="http://oyc.yale.edu/">http://oyc.yale.edu/</a>Open Yale courses<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><a href="http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm">http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm</a>MIT OpenCourseware<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><a href="http://constitution.hillsdale.edu/">http://constitution.hillsdale.edu/</a>Hillsdale Open Constitution and History Courses<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 12.0pt;"><sup>12</sup> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_open_online_course">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_open_online_course</a>A description of Massive Open Online Courses (MOOCs)<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><sup>13</sup> <a href="http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=30882&amp;page=1">http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=30882&amp;page=1</a>The Greatest Story Never Told: Modern Christian Martyrdom<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNoSpacing"><a href="http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm">http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm</a>“An average of 159,960 Christians worldwide are martyred for their faith per year.” (quoted from <a href="http://worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/" target="_blank"><span style="background: white; font-family: &quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 9.0pt;">Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (2010)</span></a> )<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 12.0pt;"><sup>14</sup> <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Esther+4%3A14&amp;version=NASB">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Esther+4%3A14&amp;version=NASB</a> <i>"For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?”</i><o:p></o:p><br /><br /><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><b><u>Picture Source Attributions</u>:</b> (most are Creative Commons licensed)</span><br /><a href="http://veneremurcernui.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/graphics-adam-eve-504490.jpeg" style="font-size: x-small;">Adam and Eve</a><span style="font-size: xx-small;">&nbsp;</span><br /><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/puliarfanita/4607380622/">Amish Buggy Ride</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/vegaseddie/4353407858/">Inflation and Gold&nbsp;</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mythoto/7062800113/">Virtue</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/26036894@N03/3358543570/">Complementary nature of Instructivism, Constructivism andConnectivism</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><a href="http://www.bcnn4youth.com/money-and-college.jpg">Paying Your Way</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/gforsythe/8028605773/">The MOOC! The Movie</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><a href="http://img.dooyoo.co.uk/GB_EN/orig/0/6/2/9/6/629676.jpg">Gutenberg Printing Press</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/gertrudk/27509516/"><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Wittenberg Church door</span></a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2012/11/a-vision-for-information-technology-at.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)8tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-6414483181976737483Tue, 04 Oct 2011 02:08:00 +00002011-10-03T02:41:33.792-05:00KnowledgeThe Seven Areas of Knowledge<div style="text-align: left;">One critical area that seems to be lacking in traditional education is teaching people how the various areas of knowledge fit together. So, here is an attempt to systematically categorize all the areas of knowledge. There are other ways to categorize this information (such as the Dewey Decimal System, for example), but this is the way to categorize knowledge that currently makes the most sense to me. By using these categories it makes the educational process more understandable.</div><br /><b><span class="Apple-style-span">The Seven Areas of Knowledge</span></b><br /><br /><span class="Apple-style-span"><b> 1. Language</b></span><br /><img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WhTNz1FOuJk/ToljyMiklPI/AAAAAAAAACs/pQBED98YEkA/s200/The_Thinker%252C_Rodin.jpg" border="0" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5659164120778577138" style="float: right; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 10px; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px; " /><div><i>How to compute (logic) and communicate qualitative information.</i><div><div>* Listening - Decoding verbal words and phrases into their related "thought" * Speaking - Encoding a "thought" into their related verbal word or phrase</div><div> * Phonics &amp; word recognition - decoding written letters into mental "words"<br /> * Handwriting &amp; Spelling - encoding mental words into written letters<br /> * Reading - decoding written sentences and paragraphs into "thoughts"<br /> * Grammar &amp; Composition - encoding "thoughts" into written sentences and paragraphs.<br /> * Research - Methods of actively searching for some information<br /> * Presentation - Actively disseminating in some format (speech, book, tape, video, web site, etc..)<br /> * Logic - Using valid rules to determine previously unknown, qualitative information from information that is already known. <div><br /><b><span class="Apple-style-span"> 2. Math</span></b><br /><i>How to compute and communicate quantitative information</i></div><div>* Philosophy of math<br /> * Arithmetic - counting<br /> * Algebra - translating relatively uniform qualitative information into quantitative information<br /> * Geometry - translating quantitative information into 2D or 3D space for visual (or auditory or any of the other five senses) communication and computation<br /> * Calculus - translating relatively non-uniform qualitative information into quantitative information and using shortcuts to handle the information more easily<br /> * Statistics - taking into account a range of uncertainty when exact information is unknown<br /> * Computational Math - the methods used by calculating machines to efficiently solve a math problem<br /><br /></div><div> <span class="Apple-style-span"><b>3. History</b></span><br /><i>The study of qualitative information recorded about events in the past.</i></div><div>* Human recorded record (i.e., oral, written, pictorial, audio, videographic, etc..)<br />* Archaeological record </div><div>* Geological record<br /> * Astronomical record<br /><br /></div><div> <span class="Apple-style-span"><b>4. Observational Science</b></span><br /><i>The study of quantitative information recorded about events in the past.</i></div><div>Observing and Measuring the following areas:<br />* Earth Sciences<br />* Physics<br />* Chemistry<br />* Geology/Oceanography/Meteorology<br />* Astronomy<br /> * Life Sciences<br />* Plants<br />* Animals<br />* Humans<br /> * Social Sciences<br />* Psychology<br />* Economics<br />* Geography </div><div> * Political Science </div><div><br /></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>5. Philosophy/Theology</b></span><br /><i>Determining qualitative patterns and trying to predict likely future occurrences</i></div><div>* Nature of the designer</div><div>* Origins<br />* How best to handle current issues</div><div>* Predicting likely future events<br />* Possible other creations/creatures (heaven, angels, etc..)<br />* What is valuable to do</div><div><br /></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>6. Theoretical Science</b></span></div><div><i>Determining quantitative patterns and trying to predict likely future occurrences</i></div><div><div>Determining patterns and predicting events in the following areas:<br />* Earth Sciences<br />* Physics<br />* Chemistry<br />* Geology/Oceanography/Meteorology<br />* Astronomy<br />* Life Sciences<br />* Plants<br />* Animals<br />* Humans<br />* Social Sciences<br />* Psychology<br />* Economics<br />* Geography </div><div> * Political Science </div></div><div><br /></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>7. Technology</b></span></div><div><i> Using qualitative and quantitative information to do something useful</i></div><div>The 14 sub-areas of technology:</div><div>* Food<br /> * Clothing<br /> * Shelter<br /> * Transportation<br /> * Communication<br /> * Education<br /> * Medicine<br /> * Management, Law and Government<br /> * Financial<br /> * Computing<br /> * Recreation, Art and Music<br /> * Martial Arts, Security &amp; Military<br /> * Career<br /> * Interpersonal Relations</div><div><br /><b><span class="Apple-style-span">Relations between the Seven Areas of Knowledge</span></b></div><div><b><br /></b></div><div><b>Math and Language</b> - Some people think math computes and language communicates, but as defined here math can be used to both compute and communicate quantitative information and language can be used to communicate and compute qualitative information. When we "compute" qualitative information it is called "Logic".</div><div><br /></div><div><b>History and Observational Science</b> - As defined here, "History" records qualitative information. Observational science observes quantitative information and as soon as it is recorded that information is part of the past. So both history and observational science are dealing with records of past events.</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Philosophy/Theology and Theoretical Science</b> - Philosophy/Theology theorize about qualitative information whereas theoretical science theorizes about quantitative information. One mistake is that people mix up theoretical science with technology. Because they know technology works they assume a particular theoretical interpretation of observational science must be correct, but that is not always the case.</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Quantitative areas</b> - Math, Observational Science and Theoretical Science are all mainly quantitative areas of knowledge</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Qualitative areas</b> - Language, History and Philosophy/Theology are all mainly qualitative areas of knowledge</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Goal of all knowledge</b> - The goal of all knowledge is to do something of value, which by definition is the broad definition of "technology". Technology in this definition is not just electronics and other equipment, but also includes methods of using qualitative knowledge to do something useful.</div><div><br /><b>Music and art </b>- They have been traditionally given higher status because they use mediums that have few boundaries, so people can be creative with few restrictions. But in my view people can be creative in any technology, with each technology putting varying levels of restriction on their creativity. Therefore, I don't think art or music should get a special status above other technologies<br />.</div></div></div></div><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2009/10/seven-areas-of-knowledge.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-3601328413474632328Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:31:00 +00002017-04-02T03:54:13.300-05:00Ancient HistoryEnlil, Enki and Genesis<div>I recently went through a video course called "<a href="http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=3180">Between the Rivers: The History of Ancient Mesopotamia</a>". I also read a few books containing the primary sources from the time of the Babylonians and earlier in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia">Mesopotamia</a>. Though Egyptologists may disagree, Mesopotamia, in particular the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian">Sumerians</a>, seems to be the oldest civilization for which we have records. It has <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu">Eridu</a>, the earliest city we have records for. It has the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire">Akkadian empire</a> (conquered by Sargon) which is the first empire we have records for. And it has the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur">city of Ur</a>, which was the <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2011:27-32&amp;version=NASB">city that Abraham left</a> likely around 2000 B.C. during the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Dynasty_of_Ur">Ur III dynasty</a>. So, if the early history in Genesis is at all historical then there</div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0 , 0 , 0);"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5653955793476658930" src="https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lxnEeR6T5u4/Tnbi1pXwJvI/AAAAAAAAACk/5oowvU1CL6Q/s320/1700%2BAM%2B-%2BCunneiform.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: right; height: 213px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; width: 320px;" /></span></span></div><div>should be at least some similarities between the writings from Sumeria and the writings in Genesis. </div><div><br /></div><div>All writings from early Mesopotamia relating to history seem to be considered as being totally mythical. There doesn't seem to be a separate genre of early historical writings from Mesopotamia like there is for later periods. But embedded in the early myths we would expect at least some remnants of history, distorted but handed down over time. Lets see what we find.</div></div><div><br /></div><div>Here are the relevant quotes from various Mesopotamian accounts relating the history of man. While there may be some conflicting myths, in general we can Identify some Mesopotamian gods with the characters in Genesis:</div><div><ul><li><b>Enlil (and also An)</b>- the creator God who sends the flood, has the tablets of destiny</li><li><b>Enki/Ea</b> - Satan, who helps mankind escape Enlil, he is the father of Marduk (who is later Zeus in Greece) who takes the tablets of destiny and replaces Enlil as the head of the gods</li><li><b>Ninmah </b>- Eve, who chooses good or evil for her descendants</li><li><b>Ziusudra/Utanapishtim</b> - Noah, who builds a boat and takes animals to escape the flood</li></ul></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>1. Enlil controls everything</b></span></div><div>From <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymn_to_Enlil#Composition">Hymn to Enlil </a>(<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Harps-that-Once-Sumerian-Translation/dp/0300072783/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1316407328&amp;sr=8-1">Harps that once</a>, P101-102)</div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+95:2-4&amp;version=NASB">Psalm 95:2-4</a> and <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2069:34&amp;version=NASB">Psalm 69:34</a></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>"Enlil - his orders august into the far yonder, his words holy, his unalterable utterances decisive into the far future...", "Heaven and Earth bowed of themselves down to him, and all the gods of high descent humbled themselves before him, loyally awaited for their part instructions."</i></div><div><div><br /></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>2. Enlil controls the destiny of the earth</b></span></div><div>From <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=ge3AT4SewpgC&amp;pg=PA144&amp;lpg=PA144&amp;dq=%22Also+the+omens+of+all+the+gods+he%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=0Yo08qfhYb&amp;sig=t_hKkKbMh2MDG8ddTm_zN2Ue70c&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=uZd2TqP1GIuCsAK34JmMBQ&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=1&amp;ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%22Also%20the%20omens%20of%20all%20the%20gods%20he%22&amp;f=false">Myth of the Storm God Zu</a></div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:26-28&amp;version=NASB">Acts 4:26-28</a> and <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:28-30&amp;version=NASB">Romans 8:28-30</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"Also the omens of all the gods he (Enlil) controlled, ..., His eyes behold what Enlil does as sovereign. The crown of his sovereignty, the robe of his divinity, The tablet of destinies belonging to his divinity... "</i></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i><b>Note: all the ki</b></i><i><b>ngs down until Babylon went to Enlil's t</b></i><i><b>emple to be crowned king</b></i></div><div><br /></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">3. Enlil separates heaven and earth</span></b></div><div>From <a href="http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.5.5.4#">Song of the Hoe</a></div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201:6-7&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 1:6-7</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"Not only did the lord make the world appear in its correct form -- the lord who never changes the destinies which he determines: Enlil, who will make the human seed of the Land come forth up from the earth -- and not only did he hasten to separate heaven from earth, and hasten to separate earth from heaven, but, in order to make it possible for humans to grow in Where Flesh Came Forth he first suspended the axis of the world </i><i>at Dur-an-ki."</i></div><div><br /></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>4. The first people were made from clay</b></span></div><div>From <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Harps-that-Once-Sumerian-Translation/dp/0300072783/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1316399767&amp;sr=8-1">The Harps that once...</a> P156</div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%202:7&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 2:7</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"When you have d</i><i>renched even the core of the Apsu's fathering clay imma-en and imma-shar can make the fetus bigger, and when you have put limbs on it may Ninmah act as your birth-helper..."</i></div><div><br /></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">5. Enki was considered to be wise and crafty</span></b></div><div>From <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Harps-that-Once-Sumerian-Translation/dp/0300072783/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1316399767&amp;sr=8-1">The Harps that once...</a> P155</div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:1&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 3:1</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"Enki... the ingenious and wise one, skillful custodian of heaven and earth..."</i></div><div><br /></div><div><div><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5653955151566617026" src="https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2J_pZElgQDg/TnbiQSEeOcI/AAAAAAAAACU/deXtc8bqKZU/s320/0000%2BAM%2B-%2BGarden%2Bof%2BEden.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: right; height: 320px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; width: 235px;" /></div></div><div><br /></div><div><b>Note: Two of Enki's symbols are a goat and a double helix snake, his compassion disarms the stern wrath of his brother Enlil,</b><b> see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki">http://en.wikiped</a></b></div><div><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki">ia.org/wiki/Enki</a></b></div><div><br /></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">6. Enki and first woman chose Good or Evil for descendants</span></b></div><div>From <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Harps-that-Once-Sumerian-Translation/dp/0300072783/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1316399767&amp;sr=8-1">The Harps that once...</a> P158-159</div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:1-6&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 3:1-6</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"Enki and Ninmah were drinking beer and began to feel good inside. Ninmah said to Enlil: "As for the build of men, what makes it good or bad is mine affair, whichever way my turn of heart, I am making the decision about mode of being, good or bad."</i> (The result was that many offspring were deformed, possibly a reference to sin)</div><div><br /></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">7. A snake takes away eternal life</span></b></div><div>From Gigamesh P99</div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:13-15&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 3:13-15</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"Its name shall be "Old Man Grown Young", I will eat it myself, and be again as I was in my youth! At twenty leagues they broke bread, at thirty leagues they stopped for the night. Gilgamesh found a pool whose water was cool, down he went into it, to bathe in the water. Of the plant's fragrance a snake caught scent, came up [in silence], and bore the plant off."</i></div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><br /></span></div></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>8. Eve driven out of Eden</b></span></div><div>From <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Harps-that-Once-Sumerian-Translation/dp/0300072783/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1316399767&amp;sr=8-1">The Harps that once...</a> P 165</div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:23-24&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 3:23-24</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"I am one lamenting. ... I am one driven out of my house, at my beer-pouring party... I am become one lingering outside, cannot enter at wish! Now I cannot dwell under heaven, cannot dwell on earth, cannot in the country get out of your sight. Where you dwell not, in a house I shall build, I shall not hear your voice. Where you live not, in </i><i>a city I shall build, me myself despairing silense will fill. "My city is destroyed, my house wrecked, my children taken captive. I am a fugitive driven out of Ekur (the temple of Enlil), I myself, even, have not escaped out of your hands!"</i></div><div><br /></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>9. "Sons of God" took any women they wanted</b></span></div><div>From <a href="http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab2.htm">Epic of Gilgamesh tablet 2</a></div><div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:1-4&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 6:1-4</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"For Gilgamesh, the King of Broad-Marted Uruk, open is the veil of the people for choosing. He will have intercours</i><i>e with the 'destined wife,'<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>he first, the husband afterward. This is ordered by the counsel of Anu,<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>from the severing of his umbilical cord it has been destined for him."</i></div></div><div><br /></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b>10. Man's thoughts were continually evil so God decides to wipe out Mankind</b></span></div><div>From <a href="http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Atrahasi.htm">Story of Atrahasis</a></div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:5-7&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 6:5-7</a></div><div><br /></div><div><div><i>"The country was as noisy as a bellowing bull. The God grew restless at their racket, Enlil had to listen to their noise. He addressed the great gods, 'The noise of mankind has become too much, </i><i>I am losing sleep over their racket. Give the order that surrupu-disease shall break out. </i>(A God who can hear thoughts might refer to hearing evil thoughts continually as man being "noisy")</div></div><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><br /></span></div></div></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">11. <i>Noah saves animals, gives sacrifice, has seemingly endless life</i></span></b></div><div>From <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Harps-that-Once-Sumerian-Translation/dp/0300072783/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1316399767&amp;sr=8-1">The Harps that once...</a> <a href="http://www.piney.com/EriduGen.html">P149-150</a></div><div>Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:13-8:22&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 6:13-8:22</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"All the evil winds, all stormy winds gathered into one and with them, then, the flood was sweeping over the cities of the half-bushel baskets for seven days and seven nights. </i><i>After the flood had swept over the country, after the evil wind had tossed the big boat </i><i>about on the great waters, the sun came out spreading light over heaven and earth. </i><i>Ziusudra then drilled an </i><i>into the interior of the big boat. Ziusudra, being king, stepped up before Utu kissing the ground</i><i> opening in the big boat. And the gallant Utu sent his light </i><i>before him. The king was butchering oxen, was being lavish with the sheep Barley cakes, crescents together with...he was crumbling for him juniper, the pure plant of the m</i><i>ountains, he filled on the fire and with a ...clasped to the breast he</i><i>... </i><i>You here have sworn by the life's breath of heaven the life's breath of earth that he verily is allied with yourself; you there, An and Enlil, have sworn by the life's breath of heaven, the life's breath of earth. that he is allied with all of you. He will disembark the small animals that come up from the earth! Z</i><i>iusudra, being king, stepped up before An and Enlil kissing the ground. And An and Enlil after honoring him were granting him life like a god's, were making lasting breath of life, like a god's, </i><i>descend into him. That day they made Ziusudra, preserver, as king, of the name of the small </i><i>animals and the seed of mankind, live toward the east over the mountains in mount Dilmun."</i></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5653955413195725218" src="https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vVAMuCGV7Ak/TnbifgttmaI/AAAAAAAAACc/QTOcntSqrpg/s320/1650%2BAM%2B-%2BThe%2BFlood%2B1.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 215px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; width: 320px;" /><br /><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">12. Noah telling the story of the flood</span></b></div><div>From Gilgamesh</div></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal;">Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:13-8:22&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 6:13-8:22</a></span></b></div><div><br /></div><div><div><i>"Gilgamesh spoke to Utanapishtim (Noah), the Faraway: "I have been looking at you, but your appearance is not strange--you are like me! You yourself are not different--you are like me! My mind was resolved to fight with you, but instead my arm lies useless over you. Tell me, how is it that you stand in the Assembly of the Gods, and have found life!" </i></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>Utanapishtim spoke to Gilgamesh, saying: "I will reveal to you, Gilgamesh, a thing that is hidden, a secret of the gods I will tell you! Shuruppak, a city that you surely know, situated on the banks of the Euphrates, that city was very old, and there were gods inside it. The hearts of the Great Gods moved them to inflict the Flood. Their Father Anu uttered the oath (of secrecy), </i><i>Valiant Enlil was their Adviser, Ninurta was their Chamberlain, Ennugi was their Minister of Canals.</i></div><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><br /></span></i></div></div><div><i>Ea (Enki), the Clever Prince, was under oath with them so he repeated their talk to the reed house: 'Reed house, reed house! Wall, wall! O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubartutu: Tear down the house and build a boat! Abandon wealth and seek living beings! Spurn possessions and keep alive living beings! Make all living beings go up into the boat. The boat which you are to build, its dimensions must measure equal to each other: its length must correspond to its width. Roof it over like the Apsu.</i></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>I understood and spoke to my lord, Ea: 'My lord, thus is the command which you have uttered I will heed and will do it. But what shall I answer the city, the populace, and the Elders!' Ea spoke, commanding me, his servant: 'You, well then, this is what you must say to them: "It appears that Enlil is rejecting me so I cannot reside in your city, nor set foot on Enlil's earth. I will go down to the Apsu to live with my lord, Ea, and upon you he will rain down abundance, a profusion of fowl, myriad(!) fishes. He will bring </i><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i>to you a harvest of wealth, in the morning he will let loaves of bread shower down, and in the evening a rain of wheat!"'</i></span></i></div></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>Just as dawn began to glow the land assembled around me- the carpenter carried his hatchet, </i><i>the reed worker carried his flattening stone,... the men ...The child carried the pitch, the weak brought whatever else was needed. On the fifth day I laid out her exterior. It was a field in area, its walls were each 10 times 12 cubits in height, the sides of its top were of equal length, 10 times It cubits each. I laid out its interior structure and drew a picture of it. I provided it with six decks, thus dividing it into seven levels. The inside of it I divided into nine compartments. I drove plugs to keep out water in its middle part. I saw to the punting poles and laid in what was necessa</i><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i>ry. Three times 3,600 units of raw bitumen I poured into the bitumen kiln, three times 3,600 units of pitch ...into it, there were three times 3,600 porters of casks who carried vegetable oil, apart from the 3,600 units of oil which they consumed and two times 3,600 units of oil which the boatman stored away. I butchered oxen for the meat, and day upon day I slaughtered sheep. I gave the workmen ale, beer, oil, and wine, as if it were river water, so they could make a party like the New Year's Festival. and I set my hand to the oiling. The boat was finished by sunset.</i></span></i></div></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>The launching was very difficult. They had to keep carrying a runway of poles front to back,</i></div><div><i>until two-thirds of it had gone into the water. Whatever I had I loaded on it: whatever silver I had I loaded on it, whatever gold I had I loaded on it. All the living beings that I had I loaded on it, I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat, all the beasts and animals of the field and the craftsmen I had go up. Shamash had set a stated time: 'In the morning I will let loaves of bread shower down, and in the evening a rain of wheat! Go </i><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i>inside the boat, seal the entry!' That stated time had arrived. In the morning he let loaves of bread shower down, and in the evening a rain of wheat. I watched the appearance of the weather-- the weather was frightful to behold! I went into the boat and sealed the entry. For the caulking of the boat, to Puzuramurri, the boatman, I gave the palace together with its contents.</i></span></i></div></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>Just as dawn began to glow there arose from the horizon a black cloud. Adad rumbled inside of it, before him went Shullat and Hanish, heralds going over mountain and land. Erragal pulled out the mooring poles, forth went Ninurta and made the dikes overflow. The Anunnaki lifted up the torches, setting the land ablaze with their flare. Stunned shock over Adad's deeds overtook the heavens, and turned to blackness all that had been light. The... land shattered like a... pot. All day long the South Wind blew ..., blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water, overwhelming the people like an attack. No one could see his fellow, they could not recognize each oth</i><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i>er in the torrent. The gods were frightened by the Flood, and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu. The gods were cowering like dogs, crouching by the outer wall. Ishtar shrieked like a woman in childbirth, the sweet-voiced Mistress of the Gods wailed: 'The olden days have alas turned to clay, because I said evil things in the Assembly of the Gods! How could I say evil things in the Assembly of the Gods, ordering a catastrophe to destroy my people!! No sooner have I given birth to my dear people than they fill the sea like so many fish!' The gods--those of the Anunnaki--were weeping with her, the gods humbly sat weeping, sobbing with grief, their lips burning, parched with thirst. Six days and seven nights came the wind</i></span></i></span></i></span></i></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i> and flood, the storm flattening the land. When the seventh day arrived, the storm was pounding, the flood was a war--struggling with itself like a woman writhing in labor. The sea calmed, fell still, the whirlwind and flood stopped up. I looked around all day long--quiet had set in and all the human beings had turned to clay! The terrain was as flat as a roof. I opened a vent and fresh air (daylight!) fell upon the side of my nose. I fell to my knees and sat weeping, tears streaming down the side of my nose. I looked around for coastlines in the expanse of the sea, and at twelve leagues there emerged a region of land. On Mt. Nimush the boat lodged firm, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway. One day and a second Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway. A third day, a fourth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway. A fifth day, a sixth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway. When a seventh day arrived I sent forth a dove and released it. The dove went off, but came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. I sent forth a swallow and released it. The swallow went off, but </i></span></i></span></i></span></i></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><i>came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. I sent forth a raven and released it. The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back. It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me. Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed a sheep. I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat. Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place, and into the fire underneath I poured reeds, cedar, and myrtle. The gods smelled the savor, the gods smelled the sweet savor, and collected like flies over a sheep sacrifice.</i></span></i></span></i></span></i></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></i></div></span></i></div></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>Just then Beletili arrived. She lifted up the large beads which Anu had made for his enjoyment: 'You gods, as surely as I shall not forget this lapis lazuli around my neck, may I be mindful of these days, and never forget them! The gods may come to the incense offering, but Enlil may not come to the incense offering, because without considering he brought about the Flood and consigned my people to annihilation.' Just then Enlil ar</i><i>rived. He saw the boat and became furious, he was filled with rage at the Igigi gods: 'Where did a living being escape? No man was to survive the annihilation!' Ninurta spoke to Valiant Enlil, saying: 'Who else but Ea could devise such a thing? It is Ea who knows every machination!' La spoke to Valiant Enlil, saying: 'It is yours, O Valiant One, who is the Sage of the Gods. How, how could you bring about a Flood without consideration Charge the violation to the violator, charge the offense to the offender, but be compassionate lest mankind be cut off, be patient lest they be killed. Instead of your bringing on the Flood, would that a lion had appeared to diminish the people! Instead of your bringing on the Flood, would that a wolf had appeared to diminish the people! Instead of your bringing on the Flood, would that famine had oc</i><i>curred to slay the land! Instead of your bringing on the Flood, would that (Pestilent) Erra had appeared to ravage the land! It was not I who revealed the secret of the Great Gods, I only made a dream appear to Atrahasis, and thus he heard the secret of the gods. Now then! The deliberation should be about him!'</i></div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>Enlil went up inside the boat and, grasping my hand, made me go up. He had my wife go up and kneel by my side. He touched our forehead and, standing between us, he blessed us: 'Previously Utanapishtim was a human being. But now let Utanapishtim and his wife become like us, the gods! "</i></div></div><div><br /></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">13. Long life removed from mankind a few generations after the flood</span></b></div><div>From Gilgamesh P XLV</div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;">Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%209:28&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 9:28</a> and <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2011:10-26&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 11:10-26</a></span></i></div><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><br /></span></i></div><br /><div><i>"After the assembly had made the Deluge sweep over... Ziusudra, one of mankind, still lived!... From that time we swore that mankind should not have life eternal."</i></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><i><br /></i></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><i>"After the Flood had swept over... when the gods An and Enlil... had not sent down from heaven (once more) kingship, crown and even city, and for all the overthrown people had not established (once more) mattock, spade, earth-basket and plough, the things which ensure the life of the land, then a man spent one hundred years as a boy, free of duties, another hundred years he spent, after he grew up, (but still) he performed no task of work."</i></span></div><div><br /></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">14. Changing of one language into many</span></b></div><div>From <a href="http://www.piney.com/EriduGen.html">Harps that once...</a></div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;">Compare to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2011:1-9&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 11:1-9</a></span></i></div><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><br /></span></i></div><br /><div><i>"Once upon a time, there was no snake, there was no scorpion, There was no hyena, there was no lion, There was no wild dog, no wolf, There was no fear, no terror, Man had no rival. In those days, the land Shubur-Hamazi, Harmony-tongued Sumer, the great land of the me of princeship, Uri, the land having all that is appropriate, The land Martu, resting in security, The whole universe, the people well cared for, To Enlil in one tongue gave speech.</i></div><div><div><i><br /></i></div><div><i>Then the lord defiant, the prince defiant, the king defiant, Enki, the lord of abundance, whose commands are trustworthy, The lord of wisdom, who scans the land, The leader of the gods,</i></div><div><i>The lord of Eridu, endowed with wisdom, Changed the speech in their mouths, put contention into it, Into the speech of man that had been one."</i></div></div><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><br /></span></i></div></div><div><b>Note: Eridu was the first known city and it had a large Ziggurat, Enki, who opposed Enlil in the Sumerian flood story, was the patron god of Eridu, and there are correspondences between "Eridu" and "Babylon", </b><b>See </b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu#Possible_location_of_Tower_of_Babel">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu#Possible_location_of_Tower_of_Babel</a> </div><div><br /></div><div><b>Note: the first successful large city was Uruk. One myth tells of how the plans for building civilization were stolen from Eridu and taken upstream to Uruk, See </b><a href="http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/esp_sumer_annunaki16.htm">http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/esp_sumer</a><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><a href="http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/esp_sumer_annunaki16.htm">_annunaki16.htm</a></span></i></div></div><div><br /></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">15. World replaces creator God with polytheism</span></b></div><div>From <a href="http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/texts/enlil/enlilninlil.htm">Harps that once... P171</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i><b>"</b>Enlil was passing through Kiur, and as Enlil was passing through Kiur the fifty great gods, </i><i>and the seven gods of formulating the decisions, were seizing Enlil in Kiur: The sex offender Enlil will leave the town! The sex offender Nunamnir will leave the town! Enlil, in accordance </i><i>with what has been decided about him, left town. Enlil was walking along, Ninlil was following..."</i></div><div><br /></div><div>16. <b>Hammurabi was a follower of a creator god</b></div><div>From <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=NopUi53PC0YC&amp;pg=PA58&amp;lpg=PA58&amp;dq=code+of+hammurabi+enlil&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=oR4ASXdkkk&amp;sig=O7jdw_XxXdr6-R_vgDeg53a9SbM&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=I9Z2TqbhLobd0QGFr9XKDQ&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=3&amp;ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&amp;q=code%20of%20hammurabi%20enlil&amp;f=false">Code of Hammurabi</a></div><div><br /></div><div><i>"When lofty Anum, king of the Anunnaki, and Enlil, lord of heaven and earth, the determiner of the destinies of the land, determined for Marduk, the first-born of Enki, the Enlil functions over all mankind, made him great among the Igigi, called Babylon by its exalted name, made it supreme in the world, established for him in its midst an enduring kingship, whose foundations are as firm as heaven and earth - at that time Anu</i><i>m and Enlil named me to promote the welfare of the people, me, Hammurabi, the devout, god-fearing prince, to cause justice to prevail in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil, that the strong might not oppress the weak, to rise like the sun over the black-headed people, and to light up the land. Hammurabi, the shepherd, called by Enlil, am I; the one who makes affluence and plenty abound; who provides in abundance all sorts of things for Nippur-Duranki; the devout patron of Ekur; the efficient king, who restored Eridu to its place"</i></div><div><br /></div><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5590155698409326098" src="https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GkBqgzC79Qc/TZQ4_WLQRhI/AAAAAAAAABw/w_YYAxIqBwg/s320/enki%2Benlil.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 162px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 0px; width: 320px;" /><br /><div>17. <b>Four males and four females come out of water</b></div><div>From <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths#Hermopolis">Egyptian Creation</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths#Hermopolis">Myths</a></div><div><br /></div><div>Flood related myth from ancient Egypt:</div><div>The oldest of the Egyptian creation myths was that eight gods, fo<i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div style="display: inline !important;"><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;">ur male and four female, were created out of water. That would fit well with the flood story since four men and four wome</span></i></div>n came out of the ark. Each of them lived much longer than their descendants and had tales of a more populated world that was lost, so they could have seemed like Gods with eternal life to their descendants.</div><div><br /></div><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span">Note about Terah and Abram and Ur</span></b></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;">Depending on the specific dating, Terah and Abraham may have left Ur during the Ur III dynasty. If so Ur may have been the thriving capital city of Mesopotamia at the time. The first king of Ur rebuilt the major Ziggurats in Nippur (to Enlil), Ur, Uruk and Uridu (the first known Ziggurat). And the second king of the Ur III dynasty wrote arrogant things about how great he was and he declared himself to be a god. He was the second king in history to do that. The first king to declare himself to be a god was told in a dream by Enlil that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire#The_Curse">he would have some kind of disaster</a>. That king destroyed the temple of Enlil and his Akkadian empire was taken over and destroyed some time not too long after that</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"> (during the reign of the next king).</span></span></div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"></span></i><br /><div><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5653954416773365794" src="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SVdFcD01FQw/TnbhlgwHACI/AAAAAAAAACM/RG90HmK7SBo/s320/1701%2BAM%2B-%2BTower%2Bof%2BBabel%2B2.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: right; height: 214px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; width: 320px;" /></span></i></div><br /><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><br /></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;">So, if the chronology I am using correctly dates Abraham's life (somewhere around 2000 B.C.,), the dates could match up with him leaving Ur possibly during the Reign of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgi">Shulgi</a>, who was the second king to declare himself a God. At that point it would make sense that God might abandon Mesopotamia and create a new nation that recovers the true history of the creator God and the flood.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><br /></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;">Also, it is interesting that Ur and Haran (where they originally went) both have the same patron god of the Moon. </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;">The new testament says Terah and Abraham were actual polytheists who were called out of that society rather than pure monotheists out of step with the culture. Abraham would have seen, and likely visited many times, the Zigurat pictured here. The timeline also suggests it may have been built during the lifetime of Terah, Abram's father.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><br /></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;">Since Shulgi declared that writings be re-written in a new format, there would have been many scholars at this time re-writing older texts. It is possible that Terah and Abraham may have learned about more accurate histories than were popularly known at the time and so they came to reject the mythologies that had come to surround their history.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><br /></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"></span><br /><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-style-span">From The Harps that Once Page xii "<i>The majority of works we possess seems to have come down to us in a form given them slightly later, during the period of the Third Dynasty of Ur, some of the rulers of which - notably Shulgi - were much concerned to preserve extant older literary works and to encourage the creation of new ones".</i></span></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><br /></span></div></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif;"><b>Summary:</b></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span">These correlations do not prove that the ancient history listed in the Bible is accurate. One could just as easily argue that the history in Genesis is a cleaned up version of Sumerian myths, which may be the reason why churches do not teach people about these correlations in Sunday School. But at least it can be said that a best guess at pulling history out of the earliest myths is consistent with what we would expect if the Bible history in Genesis is true. Perhaps that is part of the reason why the Book of Genesis has stood the test of time and today over half of the world's population (including Christians, Muslims and Jews) honor the book of Genesis.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: &quot;arial&quot; , sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br /></span></div></div><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2011/03/enlil-enki-and-genesis.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Andreas Karlstadt)8tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-3644532284049740783Sat, 18 Sep 2010 23:48:00 +00002014-12-11T17:56:09.490-06:00ManagementTrinityThe Trinity of Christian ManagementAfter becomi<img alt="" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/TJVtNRcSNRI/AAAAAAAACLg/XsaJGUagEn4/s200/Franklin+Covey+Planner.jpg" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5518436993200174354" style="cursor: hand; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 150px; margin: 0 10px 10px 0; width: 200px;" />ng a manager I spent a few years learning the various management methodologies and recommendations. I've been certified in <a href="http://www.pmi.org/CareerDevelopment/Pages/AboutCredentialsPMP.aspx">project management</a>, attended the <a href="http://www.dalecarnegie.com/search_courses/select_subject_seo.jsp?courseSubject=LED&amp;keycode=google06&amp;WT.srch=1&amp;WT.mc_id=G_Brand&amp;gclid=CJLz4fLCkqQCFYXV5wod93l8IA">Dale Carnegie Course</a>, read most all of what Steven Covey has written and attended <a href="http://www.franklincovey.com/tc/resources/view/co">Franklin/Covey</a> classes, I've been certified as a Help Desk manager, plus I have been training and certified in the most common IT management frameworks (such as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Technology_Infrastructure_Library">ITIL</a> and <a href="http://www.isaca.org/Knowledge-Center/COBIT/Pages/Overview.aspx">COBIT</a>). Basically I have looked for most any information that would seem to help me in my career as an IT manager. But, after looking at the various information, recommendations and frameworks concerning how best to manage, I started to question how all these various recommendations actually fit together. Managing shouldn't have to be that complex. So, I started trying to simplify and combine the various recommendations to boil them down to the essentials of how to manage effectively.<br /><div><br /></div><div><b>Best Practices</b></div><div>The first core concept I came to is that, regardless of how we manage, the goal is always to get to some idealized set of "best practices" for performing each of our functions. Even though we may never actually get there or we may be mistaken about what is "best" in a given situation, getting to a set of "best practices" is still the goal.</div><div><br /></div><div>The concept of "best practices" goes by many names. If there is no force behind them we call them suggestions, recommendations, or models. If we put social pressure behind them they are called etiquette. If we put law enforcement behind them then they are called laws. But these are all just different forms of "best practices".</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Willingness to Sacrifice Yourself</b></div><div>The concept of "best practices" seemed obvious from the list of hundreds or even thousands of recommendations that the various management literature recommends. But just teaching and</div><img alt="" border="0" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/TJVsoajTFuI/AAAAAAAACLA/6mvc2Gg3Thg/s200/Cemetary+of+Crosses.jpg" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5518436359990351586" style="cursor: hand; cursor: pointer; float: right; height: 141px; margin: 0 0 10px 10px; width: 200px;" />knowing the recommendations is not enough to be effective. We need to actually put the recommendations into practice to be effective. Now we naturally do things that give us an immediate reward, so those kinds of tasks do not even need to be managed. But what we do not do naturally are the things that bring some pain or hardship up front in order to gain a greater reward later. So, a big part of management seems to be the art of getting people, including yourself, to want to do the painful things up front to get a reward later. To do that requires the willingness to sacrifice short term benefits to obtain long term gain, so the willingness to make self sacrifices seems key to be willing to implement "best practices".<br /><div><b><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></b></div><img alt="" border="0" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/TJVuRDCNQGI/AAAAAAAACLo/YZ2wrB3M_Nw/s200/How+to+Win+Friends.jpg" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5518438157563805794" style="cursor: hand; cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 133px; margin: 0 10px 10px 0; width: 200px;" /><br /><div><b>Right Attitu</b><b>de (Motivation)</b></div><div>But what causes us to be willing to make the needed sacrifices? To do that we need to have the correct attitude/motivation. The best model I have heard for how we motivate ourselves and others is to convince people that a particular goal is valuable and worth the cost of obtaining the goal, and then to show a believable path for getting there which builds hope of actually being able to obtain the goal.</div><div><br /></div><div><b>The Trinity</b></div><div>It was at that point that I realized that reducing management theory to core concepts in this way reflects the core attributes of the Trinity. God the creator gave us laws and practices which, even if they don't seem to us to be best, by definition they must be the best if he is an all powerful, good creator. So God is the author of the concept of "best practices". But that apparently wasn't enough for mankind to live rightly so Jesus came and sacrificed himself to uphold the truth of what he taught, including that he was God's son, while at the same time submitting to the religious and legal authorities. As disciples of Jesus we have committed ourselves to also sacrificing ourselves to uphold truth and to determine and do what is right. So, a key attribute of Jesus is the willingness to make self sacrifices to support what is right. But apparently even that wasn't enough for the first century followers of Jesus to boldly sacrifice themselves to do what is right. They needed the Holy Spirit to motivate them to be willing to sacrifice themselves. So, there you have it. God is the giver of best practices, Jesus sacrificed himself rather than compromise truth and the Holy Spirit gives the right attitude/motivation to the disciples of Jesus. So the key attributes associated with the Trinity are also the key attributes of effective management, especially self management.</div><div><br /></div><div><b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade-off">Engineering Trade-offs</a></b></div><div>You might ask why there is problems with the world if God is an effective manager. The reason is that the common <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia">Utopian</a> concept of a "perfect" world of freedom without any pain does not actually exist, even for God. Apparently God values freedom of choice and where there is true freedom of choice there are also bad choices being made. So, by definition, in a world with freedom of choice there also has to be the problems associated with bad choices. Also, God is not required to make everything work perfectly, so it appears, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&amp;version=NASB">according to the Bible</a>, that after man chose not to follow God He changed the world somewhat to not work perfectly, likely to cause us to desire the perfect world which we do not currently have.</div><div><br /></div><div>It appears that the Christian God is an excellent manager (as we would expect). So it would make sense that western, historically Judeo-Christian world has advanced the art of management, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_historic_inventions">invention</a> and industry more than any other civilization.</div><div><br /></div><div>So, when you are confronted with a management problem, either at work or on a personal level, I think you will find that the resolution can be categorized as either to determining/implementing best practices, being willing to sacrifice something that up until now you have been holding on to, or having the appropriate attitude/motivation to get to your goal.</div><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2010/09/trinity-of-management.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-1934856745635592598Tue, 07 Sep 2010 01:53:00 +00002017-04-17T17:16:27.417-05:00666EvilSolomon666: The Number of Solomon<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomfactor/24578783/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5514006120486949810" src="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/TIWvWiT0U7I/AAAAAAAACKA/XPEjkMtJCbE/s200/666.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 173px; margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; width: 200px;" /></a>The book of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation">Revelation</a> in the Bible is mostly relaying what the writer of the book saw in a <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%204:1-2&amp;version=NASB">vision</a>. Even though this vision seems like an irrational dream, we still need to interpret it using the same method we use to interpret any writing: <span style="font-weight: bold;">determine what the author was trying to communicate to the intended audience</span>.<br /><br />Most all of the images in the book of Revelation are referring to similar images in the Old Testament, so it seems the author of the visions was trying to cause the intended audience to think about each of the old testament visions and what they were referring to. Places where it says things like "to him who has understanding..." seem to indicate that some of the audience would understand the references whereas others would not. Perhaps those who would understand this reference to "666" would be those who knew and understood its reference in the Old Testament.<br /><br /><span style="font-size: 130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">The "666" quote in </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013:11-18;14:9-13&amp;version=NASB" style="font-weight: bold;">Revelation 13 &amp; 14</a><span style="font-weight: bold;">:</span></span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-30925"><br /><span style="font-style: italic;">"15</span></sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-30926" style="font-style: italic;">16</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-30927" style="font-style: italic;">17</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-30928" style="font-style: italic;">18</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Here is wisdom Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">the number is that of a man</span><span style="font-style: italic;">; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six."</span><br /><br />Note that "666" is "the number of a man", so the question naturally arises: "Who is that man?". While the passage could have more than one intended reference, at very least the passage would evoke in the educated Jewish reader any significant instances of that number in the old testament. So lets take a look at those references.<br /><br /><span style="font-size: 130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Old Testament References to "666"</span></span><br />There are two references where "666" is mentioned as part of a list of people returning from Babylon:<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%202:12-14&amp;version=NASB">Ezra 2:12</a><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%202:12-14&amp;version=NASB">-14</a> : ... <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-12040" style="font-style: italic;">12</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">the sons of Azgad, 1,222; </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-12041" style="font-style: italic;">13</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">the sons of Adonikam, 666; </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-12042" style="font-style: italic;">14</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">the sons of Bigvai, 2,056;.</span>..<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Nehemiah%207:17-19&amp;version=NASB">Neh 7:17-19</a> : ...<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-12438" style="font-style: italic;">17</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">the sons of Azgad, 2,322; </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-12439" style="font-style: italic;">18</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">the sons of Adonikam, 667; </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-12440" style="font-style: italic;">19</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">the sons of Bigvai, 2,067;</span>...<br />Since there is no reference to anything historically significant done by the sons of Adonikam and it is unclear whether 666 or 667 people from this family returned from Babylon, this seems to be a chance instance of where there was a group of 666 or 667 people and that probably doesn't relate to the book of Revelation.<br />The only other reference to "666" in the Bible is in two passages describing the same events, one in Chronicles and one in Kings:<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%209:13-14;9:22-28&amp;version=NASB">2 Chr 9:13-14;9:22-28</a><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11378" style="font-style: italic;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><br /></span>13</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Now <span style="font-weight: bold;">the weight of gold which came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> (about 50,000 pounds of gold)</span>, </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11379" style="font-style: italic;">14</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">besides that which the traders and merchants brought; and all the kings of Arabia and the governors of the country brought gold and silver to Solomon.... </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11387" style="font-style: italic;">22</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">So <span style="font-weight: bold;">King Solomon becam</span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">e greater than all the kings of the earth in riches and wisdom.</span> </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11388" style="font-style: italic;">23</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And all the king</span><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/ihorner/111960619/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5514007553308374482" src="https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/TIWwp7_ENdI/AAAAAAAACKI/3P-S17wMDRc/s200/King+Solomon+Beer.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: right; height: 200px; margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; width: 150px;" /></a><span style="font-style: italic;">s of the earth were seeking t</span><span style="font-style: italic;">he</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom which God had put i</span><span style="font-style: italic;">n his heart. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11389" style="font-style: italic;">24</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">They brought every man his gift, articles of silver and gold, garments, weapons, spices, horses and mules, so much year by year. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11390" style="font-style: italic;">25</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Now Solomon had 4,000 stalls for horses and chariots and 12,000 horsemen, and he stationed them in the chariot cities and with th</span><span style="font-style: italic;">e king in Jerusalem. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11391" style="font-style: italic;">26</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">He was the ruler over all the kings from the Euphrates River even to the land of the Philistines, and as far as the border of Egypt. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11392" style="font-style: italic;">27</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">The king made silver as common as stones in Jerusalem, a</span><span style="font-style: italic;">nd he made cedars as plentiful as sycamore trees that are in the lowland. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-11393" style="font-style: italic;">28</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And they were bringing horses for Solomon from Egypt and from all countries.</span><br />So, Chronicles shows how Solomon gathered gold and horses, but doesn't mention anything about Solomon in a negative light (such as having multiple wives and honoring other gods). To see the full picture of what happened we have to look at the book of Kings:<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2010:14-15;10:23-27;11:1-13&amp;version=NASB">1 Kings 10:14-15;10:23-27;11:1-13</a><br /><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9094" style="font-style: italic;">14</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Now <span style="font-weight: bold;">the weight of gold which came in to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold</span>,</span> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9095" style="font-style: italic;">15</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">besides that from the traders and the wares of the merchants and all the kings of the Arabs and the governors of the country.... </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9103" style="font-style: italic;">23</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">So <span style="font-weight: bold;">King Solomon became greater than all the kings of the earth in riches and in wisdom.</span> </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9104" style="font-style: italic;">24</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">All the earth was seeking the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom which God had put in his heart. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9105" style="font-style: italic;">25</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">They brought every man his </span><span style="font-style: italic;">gift, articles of silver and gold, garments, weapons, spices, horses, and mules, so much year by year</span><span style="font-style: italic;">. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9106" style="font-style: italic;">26</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Now Solomon gathered chariots and horsemen; and he had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen, and he stationed them in the chariot cities and with the king in Jerusalem. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9107" style="font-style: italic;">27</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">The king made silver as common as stones in Jerusalem, and he made cedars as pl</span><span style="font-style: italic;">entiful as sycamore trees that are in the lowland...</span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9110" style="font-style: italic;"><br /><br />1</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9111" style="font-style: italic;">2</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, <span style="font-weight: bold;">"You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods."</span> Solomon held fast to these in love. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9112" style="font-style: italic;">3</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9113" style="font-style: italic;">4</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">For when Solomon was old, </span><span style="font-style: italic;">his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart</span><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/adactio/13589922/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5514012200330242466" src="https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/TIW04bfaqaI/AAAAAAAACKg/T9FDIwM4R6A/s200/Totem.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 200px; margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; width: 150px;" /></a><span style="font-style: italic;"> of David his father had been. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9114" style="font-style: italic;">5</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">For <span style="font-weight: bold;">Solomon went after Ashtoreth th</span></span><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">e goddes</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">s</span> of the Sidonians and after Milcom the <span style="font-weight: bold;">detestable idol</span> of the Ammonites. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9115" style="font-style: italic;">6</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Solomon did what was evil</span> in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9116" style="font-style: italic;">7</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Then <span style="font-weight: bold;">Solomon built a high place</span> for Chemosh the <span style="font-weight: bold;">detestable idol</span> of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the <span style="font-weight: bold;">detestable idol</span> of the sons of Ammon. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9117" style="font-style: italic;">8</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9118" style="font-style: italic;">9</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Now <span style="font-weight: bold;">the LORD was angry with Solomon</span> because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9119" style="font-style: italic;">10</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9120" style="font-style: italic;">11</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">So the LORD said to Solomon, "Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9121" style="font-style: italic;">12</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"Nevertheless I wi</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ll not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-9122" style="font-style: italic;">13</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jeru</span><span style="font-style: italic;">salem which I have chosen." </span><br /><br />So, it seems that Solomon increased in military might, inter-married with rulers of other countries, gathered up lots of wealth, and he honored other Gods from countries around him rather than exclusively honoring the creator. Interestingly, those are the key things a world ruler would need to do to gain power and maintain peace. But how does that compare to what the Pentateuch says a king of Israel should do?<br /><br /><span style="font-size: 130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">What the Creator says kings should/should not do</span></span><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2017:14-20&amp;version=NASB">Deut 7:14-20</a> :<br /><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-5379" style="font-style: italic;">14</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,' </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-5380" style="font-style: italic;">15</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-5381" style="font-style: italic;">16</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"Moreover, </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">he shall not multiply horses</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the LORD has said to you, 'You shall never again return that way.' </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-5382" style="font-style: italic;">17</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">He shall not multiply wives</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> for himself, or else his heart will turn away; </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> for himself. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-5383" style="font-style: italic;">18</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">he shall write for himself a copy of this law</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-5384" style="font-style: italic;">19</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes, </span><sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-5385" style="font-style: italic;">20</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">that his heart may not be lifted up above his countrymen and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left, so that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel. </span><br />So, Solomon was the wisest and most powerful king of his time, but he disregarded what the Pentateuch said he should not do as king. Basically, he thought he knew a better way to rule than the one given by the designer and creator of the universe, and his methods were seemingly successful. So, that fits very well with as an illustration of a coming set of future world leaders, who believe that they need to use various methods of obtaining power in order to maintain peace.<br /><br /><div style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-size: 130%;">Why don't students of the Bible see this seemingly obvious connection?</span></div>I think people don't focus on this connection because of the common view that "Evil" is the opposite of "Good". Many people would say Solomon is described as wise and good and so he couldn't possibly be the intended reference concerning a coming world leader who is considered by the Bible to be evil. But in fact normally the goal of someone who is "Evil" is actually trying to be better and smarter, not worse and more destructive, than what the creator designed. For example, Hitler thought he was helping the evolution of European races by getting rid of inferior individuals and races. People who kill unborn babies think they are helping young mothers be more successful in the formative years of their lives. Eve thought it would be best to eat the fruit rather than follow God's recommendation. And, most likely, Satan himself thinks he can do better than the creator's way. So, evil normally starts out thinking that<br /><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/alicepopkorn/4865331513/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5514011103950827650" src="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/TIWz4nKMcII/AAAAAAAACKY/YgmqTAy2WwY/s200/Angel.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: right; height: 200px; margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; width: 200px;" /></a><br />it is working to do better t<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/vintagehalloweencollector/518737750/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5514009562010047410" src="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/TIWye2-3U7I/AAAAAAAACKQ/D2bk6hUiXKY/s200/Devil.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; float: left; height: 198px; margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; width: 200px;" /></a>han the method that the creator designed, but very bad things are caused by evil people as the unintended result of their belief system (the "necessary evil" to get to their <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia">Utopian</a> system).<br />Here is a test. Which one of these pictures pictures evil and which one pictures good? The answer is that we can't know by looking. Many times good can look like evil (such as tough law enforcement and <a href="http://kgov.com/writings/god-and-death-penalty">capital punishment</a>) and many times evil can look like good (such as government subsidies, which steal from one person to give to another, and <a href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1988/october/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19881028_incontro-interconfessionale_en.html">interfaith prayer</a>), "for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians+11:14&amp;version=NASB">2 Cor 11:14</a>)".<br /><br /><div style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-size: 130%;">Summary</span></div>So, if this interpretation of the "666" reference is correct, then apparently it implies that a set of world leaders will arise that will seem to be as wise and respected as Solomon.They will work to bring peace and prosperity to the world. Of necessity, they will amass wealth, build a strong military, and promote inter-religious cooperation (and possibly intermarry with other powerful families). They will also, at some point, limit the ability to buy or sell as yet another means of necessary power and control. In the end they will end up believing that they need to kill those who do not honor the laws of their government above conflicting laws given by the creator.<br />So, don't be looking for a world leader who looks evil. But rather keep a look out for world leaders with true wisdom, but who value peace and safety more than they value either truth or the one true designer/creator (who is the only one who can actually guide us into truth and peace).<div class="feedflare">
<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?a=oMtld0B6pVU:-yMNnTSui-E:yIl2AUoC8zA"><img src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?d=yIl2AUoC8zA" border="0"></img></a> <a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?a=oMtld0B6pVU:-yMNnTSui-E:63t7Ie-LG7Y"><img src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?d=63t7Ie-LG7Y" border="0"></img></a> <a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?a=oMtld0B6pVU:-yMNnTSui-E:qj6IDK7rITs"><img src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?d=qj6IDK7rITs" border="0"></img></a>
</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2010/09/666-number-of-solomon.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-1207192315896107639Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:32:00 +00002014-12-11T18:10:04.246-06:00BeliefsThe Path<div style="text-align: center;"><object height="344" width="425"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VMOF6ce4Wzo&amp;autoplay=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999&amp;border=0&amp;loop=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VMOF6ce4Wzo&amp;autoplay=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999&amp;border=0&amp;loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object></div><br />My son made this five minute video for a Patheos sponsored student video contest. It discusses his journey evaluating the various beliefs at the end of his home education years and beginning of college. &nbsp;It was mostly created using a green screen in our living room as well as some outside shots from around the Wheaton area. &nbsp;We edited it in Adobe Premiere. &nbsp;It was a fun family project. &nbsp;I wrote most of the script and I edited the video using Adobe Premiere. &nbsp;We ended up winning in our category (a $1,000 prize).<div class="feedflare">
<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?a=Udxg9GihRAI:DKu3qWnjzKQ:yIl2AUoC8zA"><img src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?d=yIl2AUoC8zA" border="0"></img></a> <a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?a=Udxg9GihRAI:DKu3qWnjzKQ:63t7Ie-LG7Y"><img src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?d=63t7Ie-LG7Y" border="0"></img></a> <a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?a=Udxg9GihRAI:DKu3qWnjzKQ:qj6IDK7rITs"><img src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ChooseYourBeliefs?d=qj6IDK7rITs" border="0"></img></a>
</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2010/04/path.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-5721632267308273211Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:55:00 +00002009-08-02T06:25:30.826-05:00TonguesSpeaking in Tongues - Understanding the Meaning<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SnVVYdr_KTI/AAAAAAAACCU/3K-Af7zYtjA/s1600-h/Weird+Babel+of+Tongues+2.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 149px; height: 200px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SnVVYdr_KTI/AAAAAAAACCU/3K-Af7zYtjA/s200/Weird+Babel+of+Tongues+2.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5365288409856158002" border="0" /></a>The concept and practice of "speaking in tongues" is very interesting to read about and to experience. I will argue that Christians from both sides of this issue do not study Paul's writings carefully enough on this subject to understand what Paul is actually trying to communicate. There is one main passage in the Bible on this subject and five supporting passages. Lets take a look at what the Bible actually says and think through what Paul is mostly likely trying to communicate.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Five Supporting Passages - Four involving known languages/foreigners and one involving "groaning"</span><br />I will highlight in red the parts that refer either to a known language or foreigners who would likely speak a different known language.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202%20;&amp;version=49;">Acts 2:1-13</a><br /><span style="font-style: italic;">1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole </span><span style="font-style: italic;">house where th</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ey were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">speak with other tongues,</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> as the Spirit was giving them utterance. 5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">men from every nation under heaven</span><span style="font-style: italic;">. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 "And how is it that </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">we each hear them in our own language</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> to which we were born? 9 "</span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> speaking of the mighty deeds of God." 12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"</span> <span style="font-style: italic;">13 But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."</span><br /><br />So, clearly in this passage "tongues" refers to speaking a different language in order to communicate with foreigners. Interestingly, in a sense this ability temporarily makes up for God creating/separating the different languages at the <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2011:1-9">Tower of Babel</a>. At the tower of Babel God was trying to keep people from banding together to rebel from what He said to do (to disperse throughout the world). After the death of Jesus, God was apparently working to communicate the message about Jesus to all those nations/languages to give them the opportunity to believe and follow Jesus.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010:28,34-35,44-48;&amp;version=49;">Acts 10</a><br /><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27288" class="versenum" value="28">28</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a</span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;"> foreigner</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27294" class="versenum" value="34">34</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27295" class="versenum" value="35">35 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">but in </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">every nation</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27304" class="versenum" value="44">44 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27305" class="versenum" value="45">45</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> All the circumcis</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ed believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27306" class="versenum" value="46">46 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">For </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">th</span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SnVWJGTaAzI/AAAAAAAACCc/DXPDjVqTW2w/s1600-h/Einstein+Tongue.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 170px; height: 200px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SnVWJGTaAzI/AAAAAAAACCc/DXPDjVqTW2w/s200/Einstein+Tongue.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5365289245392634674" border="0" /></a><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">ey were hearing them speaking with tongues</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> and exalting God. Then Peter answered, </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27307" class="versenum" value="47">47</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">just as we did</span>, can he?" </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27308" class="versenum" value="48">48 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days. </span><br /><br />This passage is less clear on whether tongues is always used to communicate in a known language, but in this case as in the previous case there are foreigners present who would need to communicate and who are being added to the group of early Christians. Also, the phrase "just as we did" seems to imply that this experience was of the same kind as in the previous passage and there is no indication that the tongues were not understandable by those who were present.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1-7;&amp;version=49;">Acts 19</a><br /><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27587" class="versenum" value="1">1 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27588" class="versenum" value="2">2 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">He said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27589" class="versenum" value="3">3</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, Into John's baptism." </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27590" class="versenum" value="4">4</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27591" class="versenum" value="5">5 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27592" class="versenum" value="6">6 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">speaking with tongues and prophesying</span><span style="font-style: italic;">. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-27593" class="versenum" value="7">7 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">There were in all about twelve men. </span><br /><br />Again this passage is unclear whether the tongues were necessarily understandable or not. But since they were "speaking in tongues and prophesying", that seems to indicate that the tongues were understandable since prophesying implies a transfer of information. At very least there is no indication to the contrary.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:14-20;&amp;version=49;">Mark 16:14-20</a> (<span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Note: Some reliable early manuscripts do not contain Mark 16:9-20, so this section may have been added later by a scribe as a summary of what was said in the other books, or it might have been removed by scribes thinking it was an erroneous addition...</span>)<sup id="en-NASB-24888" class="versenum" value="14"><br /><span style="font-style: italic;">[14 </span></sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-24889" class="versenum" value="15">15 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-24890" class="versenum" value="16">16</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-24891" class="versenum" value="17">17 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> will cast out demons, <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">they will speak with new tongues</span>; </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-24892" class="versenum" value="18">18 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-24893" class="versenum" value="19">19 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-24894" class="versenum" value="20">20 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed. And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.]</span><br /><br />This section mentions speaking in tongues but does not comment further and it may or may not have been in the original writings. So this section does not seem to give us any more useful information on the subject.<br /><p><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:18-27;&amp;version=49;">Romans 8: 18-27</a> (phrases mentioning "groaning" and prayer highlighted in red)<br /></p><p> <sup id="en-NASB-28135" class="versenum" value="18">18</sup>For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. <sup id="en-NASB-28136" class="versenum" value="19">19 </sup>For the <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">anxious longing of the creation</span> waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. <sup id="en-NASB-28137" class="versenum" value="20">20 </sup>For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope <sup id="en-NASB-28138" class="versenum" value="21">21 </sup>that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. <sup id="en-NASB-28139" class="versenum" value="22">22 </sup>For we know that <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">the whole creation groans </span>and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. <sup id="en-NASB-28140" class="versenum" value="23">23 </sup>And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">even we ourselves groan within ourselves</span>, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. <sup id="en-NASB-28141" class="versenum" value="24">24 </sup>For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? <sup id="en-NASB-28142" class="versenum" value="25">25 </sup>But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. <sup id="en-NASB-28143" class="versenum" value="26">26 </sup>In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">we do not know how to pray as we should</span>, but <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words</span>; <sup id="en-NASB-28144" class="versenum" value="27">27 </sup>and <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is</span>, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. </p>So, apparently here is a case of the Holy Spirit "groaning" and God understanding the pain that is trying to be communicated because He "knows what the mind of the Spirit is". So, this leaves open the possibility that some unintelligible "groanings" between a man and God are substitutes for actual speech. But note that in this case no actual communication to God is necessary since, as Paul says, He already knows what is needed.<br /><br />But also note that since Jesus clearly has said that <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206:5-13;&amp;version=49;">prayer should be in private</a> (a passage that is widely disregarded in most all modern churches and home groups...) this is not a practice that Paul is advocating should occur in church.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The main passage on Speaking in Tongues</span><br />As seen above, at least one of the supporting passages clearly says that the tongues were speaking in foreign languages that were understandable by foreigners and at least one of the passages talk about "groaning" as part of private prayer. But none of the five supporting passages have any indication that tongues were used in public when no one present at the time understood what was being said. So, a valid question is whether tongues is always used to communicate to others or whether there is any situation where tongues is used in a groups setting for some other reason than communication. Now lets take a look at the main passage to answer that question.<br /><br />One key to understanding the Corinthians passage on speaking in tongues is to understand that Paul is responding to a list of questions he received in a previous letter. To see this, take a look at the introductory statements to the surrounding passages:<br /><br />1 Cor 7:1 "<span style="font-style: italic;">Now for the matters you wrote about:</span>" (concerning married life)<br />1 Cor 7:25 "<span style="font-style: italic;">Now concerning virgins</span>"<br />1 Cor 8:1 "<span style="font-style: italic;">Now concerning things sacrificed to idols</span>"<br />1 Cor 12:1 "<span style="font-style: italic;">Now concerning spiritual gifts</span>"<br />1 Cor 16:1 "<span style="font-style: italic;">Now concerning the collection for the saints</span>"<br /><br />So, it appears that from 1 Corinthians chapter seven on Paul is mostly answering questions that he had received in a previous letter from the church leaders at Corinth.<br /><br />The passage in Corinthians is by far the longest on this subject. It seems at first reading to be discussing two types of "speaking in tongues", one type where others understand what is being said and another type where no one else seems to understand what is being said. But lets take a look to try to understand what Paul is trying to communicate.<br /><br /><br /><center><object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" id="mp3player" tabindex="1" title="mp3player" width="350" height="375"><param name="menu" value="false"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><param name="wmode" value="transparent"><embed src="http://www.soundboard.com/sb/player.swf?bgcolor=0xFFCC00&amp;xml=http://www.soundboard.com/playlist/U3BlYWtpbmdfaW5fVG9uZ3Vlc19zb3VuZDc2NDA_z1R0YOtFYsA.xml&amp;textcolor=0x000000&amp;photo=http://www.soundboard.com/memberphoto/21757640217540.jpg&amp;skin=Skin1&amp;user=speaking_in_tongues_sound" quality="high" wmode="transparent" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" menu="false" allowscriptaccess="always" name="mp3player" width="350" height="375"></embed></object></center><br />Since Paul is responding to a previous question, to fully understand his response it would be helpful to try to infer the question he was responding to.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Dear Paul: What about Tongues that no one understands?</span><br />Here is my best guess at the question that the Corinthian church leaders had written to ask Paul which he was trying to answer in this passage in Corinthians. While somewhat of a guess, the question listed below does correlates to the answer that Paul gives and also, given normal human nature, we should have expected this situation to arise as some point.<br /><br />I would suggest that the question might have been something like this:<br /><br /><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Dear Paul,</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Some of the most dedicated people in the Corinthian church became aware of how at Pentecost the apostles were miraculously given the ability to tell foreigners about Jesus in their own language. So, they asked God to give them the same ability. And some of the people also believe that this ability to speak in another tongue is a gift from God that all committed Christians should be able to do. </span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The problem is that when they began speaking in what they thought was a foreign language no one is able to understand them. So, some in the church now say that perhaps the foreign language is a genuine one but no one is there who speaks that particular language. So in that case the gift would be valid but no one is able to interpret in order to verify the authenticity of the gift. Others say that maybe the language is actually the language of angels and not of any foreign country at all, so we shouldn't expect anyone to be able to interpret. So, again the gift would be valid, but unverifiable. But still others say that God has not given them the gift of speaking a foreign language all and that they are presumptuously assuming God has given them this ability when He hasn't. So they insist those who are not speaking in a true foreign language have been led astray and should be kicked out of the church, similar to </span><a style="font-weight: bold;" href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2018:20-22%20;&amp;version=49;">how false prophets were dealt with in the old testament</a><span style="font-weight: bold;">.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">So, what should we do about these people who say God has given them the gift to speak in another language but no one understands them and no one can interpret what they are saying? The people involved seem to be some of the most sincere and motivated people in the church and they affirm that Jesus is their lord. But unfortunately this issue seems to be splitting the church.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sincerely,</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Leaders of the Corinthian Church</span></span><br /><br />Paul, recognizing that these were just sincere Christians wanting the miracle of speaking in different languages but not receiving the desired miracle, identified himself with them. He affirmed the desire to speak in tongues and he did not try to argue whether a specific instance of tongues was or was not valid. Instead, he said that if no one understands what they are saying (i.e., the miracle of speaking a foreign language isn't present) they should only try speaking a foreign language at home, not in public, or at least quietly to themselves. And he also implied that speaking a foreign language was the least of the abilities that God gives and so people should desire the other abilities more than just speaking a foreign language.<br /><br />What I think many people miss is how thoughtfully Paul handled this issue. It would be natural for some of the more motivated people to desire the gift of speaking in a foreign language and any other ability that God might give them. But the only way they would be able to use the gift would be to start trying to talk in a different language. So, it seems natural that this question would arise just from our knowledge of human nature. And far from being the fringe of the church attempting to speak in other tongues, the core of the church, the most motivated, would most likely be the people who would want that gift.<br /><br />Even those who believe that most instances of speaking in tongues today are actually other real languages have to admit, since Paul says that "not all speak in tongues", that at least some instances of speaking in tongues is a result of this natural desire to try receive good gifts from God even when God isn't giving out that particular gift at that time. And they would have to admit that there is no good way to be able to discern between an experience coming from God and the person just trying unsuccessfully to speak another language.<br /><br />So, there was no way that Paul or the Corinthian church could prove a negative. If some people believed they were speaking another language, how could Paul have proved them wrong? They could always say that it was just a different language that no on in the room understood. So, instead of Paul trying a futile attempt to say they were wrong, instead Paul emphasizes that they should not do that in the church and that they should seek the more important gifts, ones that would help others.<br /><br />Note how Paul handled this situation very, very tactfully and avoided a possible split in the church. Now let's see what Paul actually said. I will highlight in purple the few sections that seem to say that speaking in tongues doesn't need to be understood by someone else. I will highlight in red the areas that say that tongues should be understood by someone else, or areas that discourage speaking in tongues and I will add my commentary in parentheses in blue.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012-14%20;&amp;version=49;">1 Cor 12-14</a><br /><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28636" class="versenum" value="1">12:1</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28637" class="versenum" value="2">2</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(there is no informati</span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">on transfer with mute idols)</span> </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28638" class="versenum" value="3">3 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(so both Christians who speak with tongues and those who do not both have the Holy Spirit)</span> </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28639" class="versenum" value="4">4 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28640" class="versenum" value="5">5 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28641" class="versenum" value="6">6 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28642" class="versenum" value="7">7 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28644" class="versenum" value="9">9 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28645" class="versenum" value="10">10</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues</span>. (<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">so the ability to speak in another known language was apparently considered a separate</span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> ability from being able to understand another language</span>)<br /></span><p style="font-style: italic;"> <sup id="en-NASB-28646" class="versenum" value="11">11 </sup>But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills (<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">so apparently God doesn't give the ability to speak or understand other languages to everyone, but only to who he wills</span>). <sup id="en-NASB-28647" class="versenum" value="12">12 </sup>For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. <sup id="en-NASB-28648" class="versenum" value="13">13 </sup>For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. <sup id="en-NASB-28649" class="versenum" value="14">14 </sup>For the body is not one member, but many. <sup id="en-NASB-28650" class="versenum" value="15">15 </sup>If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. <sup id="en-NASB-28651" class="versenum" value="16">16 </sup>And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. <sup id="en-NASB-28652" class="versenum" value="17">17 </sup>If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? <sup id="en-NASB-28653" class="versenum" value="18">18 </sup>But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. <sup id="en-NASB-28654" class="versenum" value="19">19 </sup>If they were all one member, where would the body be? <sup id="en-NASB-28655" class="versenum" value="20">20 </sup>But now there are many members, but one body. <sup id="en-NASB-28656" class="versenum" value="21">21 </sup>And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." <sup id="en-NASB-28657" class="versenum" value="22">22 </sup>On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; <sup id="en-NASB-28658" class="versenum" value="23">23 </sup>and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, <sup id="en-NASB-28659" class="versenum" value="24">24 </sup>whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, <sup id="en-NASB-28660" class="versenum" value="25">25 </sup><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">so that there may be no division in the body</span>, but that the members may have the same care for one another. <sup id="en-NASB-28661" class="versenum" value="26">26 </sup>And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. <sup id="en-NASB-28662" class="versenum" value="27">27 </sup>Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. <sup id="en-NASB-28663" class="versenum" value="28">28 </sup>And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues (<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">note that tongues is last on the numbered list and is therefore likely implied to be the least important</span>). <sup id="en-NASB-28664" class="versenum" value="29">29 </sup>All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? <sup id="en-NASB-28665" class="versenum" value="30">30 </sup>All do not have gifts of healings, do they? <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">All do not speak with tongues, do they?</span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(This reply implies that some were saying that all Christians should have the ability to speak in ton</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">gues and Paul is refuting that idea)</span> All do not interpret, do they? <sup id="en-NASB-28666" class="versenum" value="31">31 </sup>But<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"> earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(While not prohibiting tongues, Paul is minimizing their importance and asking the Corinthian church to focus their efforts elsewhere)</span></span><sup id="en-NASB-28667" class="versenum" value="1"><br /></sup></p><p style="font-style: italic;"><sup id="en-NASB-28667" class="versenum" value="1">13:1</sup><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.</span> <sup id="en-NASB-28668" class="versenum" value="2">2 </sup>If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. <sup id="en-NASB-28669" class="versenum" value="3">3 </sup>And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. <sup id="en-NASB-28670" class="versenum" value="4">4 </sup>Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, <sup id="en-NASB-28671" class="versenum" value="5">5 </sup>does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, <sup id="en-NASB-28672" class="versenum" value="6">6</sup> does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; <sup id="en-NASB-28673" class="versenum" value="7">7</sup> bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. <sup id="en-NASB-28674" class="versenum" value="8">8 </sup>Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(having Love for others is more important than receiving special abilities from God) </span> <sup id="en-NASB-28675" class="versenum" value="9">9 </sup>For we know in part and we prophesy in part; <sup id="en-NASB-28676" class="versenum" value="10">10 </sup>but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.<sup id="en-NASB-28677" class="versenum" value="11"> 11 </sup>When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">I did away with childish things.</span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(implies focusing on "spiritual gifts" for their own sake is something a mature Christian should move away from, toward focusing on Love for others and desiring the abilities to help others)</span> <sup id="en-NASB-28678" class="versenum" value="12">12 </sup>For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. <sup id="en-NASB-28679" class="versenum" value="13">13 </sup>But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.<br /></p><p style="font-style: italic;"><sup id="en-NASB-28680" class="versenum" value="1">14:1</sup>Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.<sup id="en-NASB-28681" class="versenum" value="2"> 2</sup><span style="color: rgb(204, 51, 204);">For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.</span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(this is the only place in this passage where Paul says that tongues are not understandable, but read on to see whether he is recommending that as a public practice in the church or not)</span> <sup id="en-NASB-28682" class="versenum" value="3">3 </sup>But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. <sup id="en-NASB-28683" class="versenum" value="4">4 </sup>One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. <sup id="en-NASB-28684" class="versenum" value="5">5 </sup>Now <span style="color: rgb(204, 51, 204);">I wish that you all spoke in tongues</span>, but <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">even more that you would prophesy</span>; and <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues</span>, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. <sup id="en-NASB-28685" class="versenum" value="6">6 </sup>But now, brethren, <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you</span> unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of pro<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaser/2551533048/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 191px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SnABywOoE8I/AAAAAAAACCM/CYKauTFsUiU/s200/Pentecostal.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5363789127649596354" border="0" /></a>phecy or of teaching? <sup id="en-NASB-28686" class="versenum" value="7">7 </sup>Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp? <sup id="en-NASB-28687" class="versenum" value="8">8 </sup>For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? <sup id="en-NASB-28688" class="versenum" value="9">9 </sup>So also you, <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken?</span> For <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">you will be speaking into the air</span>. <sup id="en-NASB-28689" class="versenum" value="10">10 </sup>There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">no kind is without meaning</span>. <sup id="en-NASB-28690" class="versenum" value="11">11 </sup>If then I do not know the<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"> meaning of the language</span>, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. <sup id="en-NASB-28691" class="versenum" value="12">12 </sup>So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church. <sup id="en-NASB-28692" class="versenum" value="13">13 </sup>Therefore <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret</span>. <sup id="en-NASB-28693" class="versenum" value="14">14 </sup><span style="color: rgb(204, 51, 204);">For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.</span> <sup id="en-NASB-28694" class="versenum" value="15">15</sup> What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. <sup id="en-NASB-28695" class="versenum" value="16">16 </sup>Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? <sup id="en-NASB-28696" class="versenum" value="17">17 </sup>For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. <sup id="en-NASB-28697" class="versenum" value="18">18 </sup><span style="color: rgb(204, 51, 204);">I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all</span>; <sup id="en-NASB-28698" class="versenum" value="19">19 </sup>however, in the church <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue</span>. <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> (so the key for Paul is being able to give information to others, whether someone is really speaking another language is not important. The key is being able to get the information across, which requires a real language)</span><br /></p> <sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28699" class="versenum" value="20">20</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> Brethren,<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"> do not be children in your thinking</span>; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28700" class="versenum" value="21">21 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28701" class="versenum" value="22">22 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">So then <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;</span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(to tell foreigners who aren't Christians about Jesus)</span> but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(to tell believers and nonbelievers how God wants them to change their lives)</span> </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28702" class="versenum" value="23">23 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Therefore <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?</span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(i.e., why wouldn't they just use their normal language??)</span> </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28703" class="versenum" value="24">24 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28704" class="versenum" value="25">25</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28705" class="versenum" value="26">26</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28706" class="versenum" value="27">27 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret</span>; <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(there is no indication that both the tongues and the interpreter are both abilities given by God, but rather the tongue is likely a special gift but the interpreter is someone who normally knows the language, or vice versa)</span> </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28707" class="versenum" value="28">28 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28708" class="versenum" value="29">29 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28709" class="versenum" value="30">30 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28710" class="versenum" value="31">31 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28711" class="versenum" value="32">32 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28712" class="versenum" value="33">33 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28713" class="versenum" value="34">34</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28714" class="versenum" value="35">35 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28715" class="versenum" value="36">36 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28716" class="versenum" value="37">37</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"> If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28717" class="versenum" value="38">38 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">(both sides of the debate are likely to reject the Biblical instruction here. People against tongues are likely to split the church to maintain the purity of doctrine while those supporting tongues are likely to split the church saying they are more spiritually connected to God than those who do not speak in tongues. But Paul upholds the primacy of rationality while not splitting over an unprovable debate about whether someone trying to speak another language is actually from God or not)</span> </span></span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-28718" class="versenum" value="39">39 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;">Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">do not forbid to speak in tongues. </span></span><sup style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);" id="en-NASB-28719" class="versenum" value="40">40 </sup><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">But all things must be done properly</span> and in an orderly manner.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Summary of the main passage talking about speaking in tongues</span><br />So, here is a summary of what Paul seems to actually be saying:<br /><ul><li>Don't split the church over debating whether someone is actually speaking a real language or not</li><li>Different people are given different gifts, not everyone speaks in other languages<br /></li><li>Speaking in tongues is probably the least important of the gifts that God can give you</li><li>Having love is more important than being able to speak in tongues<br /></li><li>If no one understands, have them do their speaking to themselves at home or to themselves</li><li>Speaking "groanings" to God in private when you are in pain is O.K. because God already knows what you need (communicating information is not necessary in that case)<br /></li><li>Any gifts God gives you should be used to help others rather than just yourself</li><li>Paul's view is the authoritative view on the subject</li></ul>So, here is a summary of what Paul was most likely trying to communicate. It appears that speaking in tongues/interpreting were meant to be special gifts to be able to tell foreigners about Jesus and to understand their responses. When the most motivated of the Corinthians tried to have the same gift, without the same need to communicate with foreigners, various views about what was happening sprung up in the Church. Paul, in characteristic fashion, broke through the surface arguments and went straight to first principles in order to solve the dilemma. He affirmed that those trying to speak in tongues were in fact highly motivated Christians while at the same time he affirmed the primacy of communicating information. The alternative was to take sides in a debate that was unprovable and therefore ultimately un-winnable.<br /><br />Interestingly, if today's church leaders understood Paul's argument here that would bring back together the charismatic/pentecostal and the more rational/theological based groups in the church. And this passage is a case study for any negotiator in how to go to first principles to resolve a dispute without giving up truth and at the same time maintaining the honor and dignity of both sides of the dispute.<br /><br /><center><object width="340" height="285"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/NZbQBajYnEc&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;rel=0&amp;border=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/NZbQBajYnEc&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;rel=0&amp;border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="340" height="285"></embed></object></center><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Secular research about speaking in tongues</span><br />The technical term for tongues that no one else understands is "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia">glossolalia</a>". <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Tongues-Men-Angels-Religious-Pentecostalism/dp/0026068206/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1249201460&amp;sr=1-1">William J. Samarin</a> studied modern day speaking in tongues and determined that it could not be a real language, either known or unknown for the following reasons:<br /><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">...the syllable string did not form words, the stream of speech was not internally organised, and – most importantly of all – there was no systematic relationship between units of speech and concepts. Humans use language to communicate, but glossolalia does not. Therefore he concluded that glossolalia is not "a specimen of human language because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives</span>".<sup id="cite_ref-Samarin128_6-1" class="reference"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia#cite_note-Samarin128-6"><span></span><span></span></a></sup><br /><br />On the basis of his linguistic analysis, Samarin defined Pentecostal glossolalia as "<span style="font-style: italic;">meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead</span>".<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia#cite_note-7"><span></span></a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Speaking-Tongues-Cross-cultural-Study-Glossolalia/dp/0226303241/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1249200189&amp;sr=8-1">Felicitas Goodman</a>, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, studied a number of Pentecostal communities in the United States, Caribbean and Mexico; these included English, Spanish and Mayan speaking groups. She compared what she found with recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She took into account both the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and the supra-segmental elements (rhythm, accent, intonation), and concluded that there was no distinction between what was practiced by the Pentecostal Protestants and the followers of other religions.<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2009/07/speaking-in-tongues-understanding.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-8945024012738529953Wed, 22 Jul 2009 05:48:00 +00002009-07-22T02:10:10.046-05:00DeterminismFree WillFree Will and Determinism are the Same<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevon/3145375973/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SmapUDeaA2I/AAAAAAAACBo/bzflsuZkDMA/s200/Dice.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5361158568426472290" border="0" /></a>I have been wanting to write on this topic for awhile now, but had more important posts to work on. But tonight I googled "Choose Your Beliefs" and found a post named "<a href="http://thecolinologist.com/index.php/articles/you-cannot-choose-your-beliefs/">You Cannot Choose Your Beliefs</a>". In a sense I agree but on the surface that sounds contradictory to the name and purpose of my Blog. So, I thought I should explain how <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will">Free Will</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism">Determinism</a> (or alternatively <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism">Pelagianism</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism">Calvinism</a>) are not just compatible, but actually they are two perspectives describing the exact same concept. This is a first rough draft which I will clean up over the next few weeks, but I wanted to go ahead and post it to motivate myself to get this one done. This concept is key to having a rational view of who God is and to resolve some common misconceptions that lead to unnecessary debate.<br /><br />The difference between free will and determinism is just a matter of perspective. If someone knows/controls a situation then to that person the situation is predetermined. If someone else does not know how a situation is controlled then to that person there is no determinism and everything involves free choice.<br /><br />For example, if someone knows the way to the airport, was able to put in your mind the desire to go there and they put a roadblock in the way that causes a detour, that person will both know and cause you to take a certain path and they will know ahead of time where you will go. But from your perspective you will have made the free choice to go to the airport down the direct path, but an obstacle in the way will cause you to choose to take an unplanned detour. So, both perspectives of determinism and free will are true depending on how much knowledge of a situation a person has.<br /><br />Another illustration is what happens when we roll dice. To the casual observer it looks like the result of the dice throw is pure random chance. But to someone who both knows and controls all the forces on the dice during the throw, including the forces exerted by our hands, the air, the surface of the table, etc.., that person can both know and control the result of the dice throw.<br /><br />Now, just because someone <span style="font-weight: bold;">can</span> fully control every aspect of a dice throw doesn't necessarily mean that they actually <span style="font-weight: bold;">do</span> control every aspect of a particular throw. Logically they could know all the forces without directly causing each and every force. So, someone with the ability to control all forces on a dice throw could either actively and directly "cause" a certain result or they could passively and indirectly "allow" a certain result and we would not be able to tell the difference.<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/3271991009/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 163px; height: 200px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/Smapb68NgjI/AAAAAAAACBw/-osdI7C96hI/s200/John+Calvin.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5361158703574516274" border="0" /></a><br /><br />So, the debate between determinism and free will is just a matter of the perspective and ability of control that the observer has. From God's perspective, everything is fully controlled and known, either actively or passively on His part. So, ultimately the determinism perspective is the most accurate one since God's perspective is the most accurate perspective. But from man's perspective, it is as if everything is free will and nothing is controlled (unless God tells us what he is controlling beforehand). So, the only option man has is to act as if everything is free will and nothing is predetermined, unless God tells us what is predetermined (because only He knows).<br /><br />The problems occur when people try to mix the two perspectives. It is a fallacy to talk about something being determined when from our perspective everything is free will.<br /><br />So, here are some examples of mixing the free will perspective with the determinism perspective and getting confused:<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">If God actually controls everything and to us it just looks like we have free will, then is it right for God to Judge us for our actions?</span><br />From God's perspective he created some people to do good and some to do badly, and as creator he has the right to honor those he created for good and to separate out those he created to choose badly. But that is from God's perspective, not ours, so we can't think that way.<br /><br />From our perspective we have no idea who was created to do good and who was created to do badly. So, from our perspective some people freely choose good and others freely choose badly and are judged based on their choices, and that is true from our perspective.<br /><br />So, from God's perspective he has the right to do what he wants with what he created. From our perspective it is right for God to reward those that choose well and separate out those that choose badly. Both are perspectives are true and the only time people get confused is when they try to combine the two perspectives at the same time.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Then does that mean that God causes evil and pain?</span><br />From our perspective the two sources of pain are 1. man's bad choices and 2. God caused the world to not work quite right after man decided not to follow him (in order to cause men to desire a world that works correctly).<br /><br />From God's perspective, yes, he does cause, either directly, or more likely, through passive acceptance, evil and pain which are apparently necessary for a greater purpose to be achieved.<br /><br />But again, since we are human we can only take the first perspective since everything looks to us as free will choices.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">What is Time?</span><br />One idea that many people hold is that "God is outside of time" or "God created time". But to discuss that idea we must agree on the definition of what "time" is and separate that concept from the concept of "clocks".<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/ckaiserca/434019427/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 133px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SmaqXcdmlKI/AAAAAAAACB4/ZVcr41VAnYU/s200/Clock.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5361159726185223330" border="0" /></a><br /><br />"Time" is man's observation of change. <a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/time">Websters</a> says time is a "<span class="sense_content">...measur</span><span class="sense_content">able period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues". But all periods can in theory be measured against other periods, so any time there is an action, process or condition, even for God, then time exists. To say that time did not exist is to say that no chan</span><span class="sense_content">ge could have occurred at all.<br /><br /></span>A "<a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clock">clock</a>" is "<span class="sense_content">a device... for indicating or measuring time". Note that clocks do not need to exist for time to exist. For example, if the sun and moon did not exist, the passin</span><span class="sense_content">g of years and months (time) would not stop.</span><br /><br />To say that God is somehow "outside of time" is therefore to say that God could never "do" anything. Yet every time God speaks, creates or even thinks anything that means that God is going through "time".<br /><br />If you look at the passages concerning the "beginning of time" in the Bible, in all cases at least some translations do not translate it to say that time was "created". I would suggest that those passages are actually referring to either the creation of our standard clocks, the Sun, Moon and Stars, or that God is eternal rather than having a beginning or end.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TULIP</span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/ckaiserca/434019427/"></a><p><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >In theology, the concept most closely related to determinism is called Calvinism and a competing concept is called Pelagianism. Calvinism is usually defined by five concepts listed by an acronym called TULIP:</span><b><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><br /></span></b></p><p><b><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >T</span></b><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >otal Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) - From God's perspective, all mankind was created to choose badly and then some be redeemed from their depravity, but from man's perspective in theory each person could choose to do right all their life (though no one ever does).<br /></span></p><p><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" > <b>U</b>nconditional Election - From God's perspective he can choose who he wants to make follow him, but from man's perspective those who God chooses to put in the new Jerusalem are those who decide to follow him</span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/dcdead/2428014095/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 133px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SmakdZpusDI/AAAAAAAACBg/x0HRCCXod2o/s200/Tulip.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5361153231440228402" border="0" /></a></p><p><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>L</b>imited Atonement - From God's perspective, he know</span><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >s who he created to choose good so atonement looks limited, but from man's perspective, we don't know who will choose good </span><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >so atonement looks unlimited.<br /></span></p><p><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>I</b>rresistible Grace - From God's perspective, whoever he created to do good will, without fail choose to follow God so grace looks irresistible, but from man's perspective we have to the choice to follow God or not and we have the choice to resist<br /></span></p><p><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>P</b>erseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) - From God's perspective he knows and controls who will be "saved" in the new Jerusalem so it looks to him like every one he has chosen will persevere, but from man's perspective we do not know who was chosen so </span><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >to us it looks like some people turn away.</span> </p>So, I can agree that from God's perspective TULIP is the most correct. Therefore, I can say I hold to a full five point Calvinist view. But I can also agree that from man's perspective (the only perspective that is valid to work with in this life) we have full 100% free will and the TULIP concepts makes no difference to us whatsoever (unless we know what the Creator has chosen to do, which is very rarely if ever the case). So, I can say that I am actually a Pelagian, which is normally considered an opposing view to Calvinism.<br /><br />So, when you lift your little finger it is most accurate to say that, either actively or passively, God caused you to lift you little finger. But that is from God's perspective and that mode of thinking is useless to us. From our perspective you lifted your little finger by your own free will, and we get mixed up if we try to live our life as if we can see from God's perspective.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Doesn't Quantum Mechanics prove Free Will?</span><br />Quantum Mechanics does not show that the world at its core is only probabilistic. The uncertainty is in our ability to know where something is at any given time rather than the uncertainty and probabilistic nature being inherent to nature itself. That mistake in reasoning leads many physicists to the belief in the Schrödinger's Cat paradox, which logically cannot be true. That is why you will find Physicists who study Quantum Mechanics who also promote different forms of mysticism, such as the physics who have spoke at the <a href="http://www.theosophical.org/local_groups/krotona/Kprograms/index.php">Theosophical Society</a> or those on "<a href="http://www.thesecret.tv/">The Secret</a>" video.<br /><br />The closest I have found to this concept of Free Will and Determinism both being different perspectives of the same concept is called <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism">Compatibilism</a>. But even Compatibilism doesn't seem to match what I am saying because I am saying that the differences between total free will and total determinism are just a matter of differing perspectives and both are fully true. Compatibilism on the other hand seems to try to somehow mix the two, when I would argue the two perspectives cannot be mixed at all.<br /><br /><div style="width: 300px;"><object width="300" height="110"><param name="movie" value="http://media.imeem.com/m/qk-7QoAiZD/aus=false/"><param name="wmode" value="transparent"><embed src="http://media.imeem.com/m/qk-7QoAiZD/aus=false/" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="300" height="110"></embed></object></div><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2009/04/free-will-and-determinism-are-same.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-5569495527356950885Sun, 29 Mar 2009 03:23:00 +00002009-06-04T03:27:36.083-05:00Contemplative PrayerThe Many Definitions of Contemplative Prayer<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonathan_hamner/3386073552/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/Sc8I-1KkD1I/AAAAAAAABJI/Bi56rcVKW6Y/s200/Cross+Meditation.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5318479560464142162" border="0" /></a>When discussing the concept of Contemplative Prayer, sometimes called "the discipline of silence", the discussion many times leads to a question of what the term "Contemplative Prayer" actually is intended to mean. At one extreme, some will say that Contemplative Prayer is no more than<span style="color: rgb(0, 153, 0);"> </span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(51, 204, 0);">trying to not think about the issues/concerns of the day in order to focus attention on God </span>(i.e., not much different than regular prayer). And others will say that Contemplative Prayer is like regular prayer, except you are quiet and listen for an extended time in order to give God a chance to speak back to you, since they say <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">prayer should be a two way conversation</span>. At the other extreme, some will say that Contemplative Prayer is <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">emptying the mind of all thought and emotion so that you can experience union with God directly</span>, and that this practice, along with acts of service, can bring unity and peace between the world religions and people groups (as opposed to "belief systems" and "practices/rituals" which divide religions and people groups).<br /><br />With such a wide variety of meanings infused into the term "Contemplative Prayer", I thought it might be helpful for discussion to compile a sampling of the meanings and expectations various leaders pour into the term. I will use <span style="color: rgb(0, 153, 0); font-weight: bold;">Green</span> to indicate definitions that I think are rational and in keeping with mainstream historical Christianity. I will use <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">Red</span> to indicate definitions that seem to be mystical and that are more in keeping with the practices of the mystics, either the ancient Catholic mystics or Hindu, Buddhist or other eastern mystics.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">From a Google definition search (<a href="http://www.blogger.com/religioustolerance.org"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_0">religioustolerance</span>.org</a>):</span><br /><b><a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/gl_c.htm">Contemplative prayer</a>:</b> This is an ancient Christian practice that was suppressed by the Roman Catholic Church during the Middle Ages and is rejected by many conservative Protestants today. It consists of a wordless form of prayer in which one simply exists in the presence of the Holy Spirit.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The definition from </span><a style="font-weight: bold;" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemplative_prayer"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_1">Wikipedia</span></a><span style="font-weight: bold;">:</span><br />In <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism" title="Christian mysticism">Christian mysticism</a>, <b>Contemplative prayer</b> can refer to: <ul><li><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">repetitive chanting</span>, <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">breathing in a controlled manner</span> or silent concentration to <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">quiet the thoughts and feelings</span> and commune with a spirit that some believe to be God.</li><li>infused contemplation: a divinely originated, general, non-conceptual, loving awareness of God; <span owner="" class="owner" type="INSERT">a pure and unmerited gift</span></li><li>acquired contemplation: <span owner="" class="owner" type="INSERT">for which the believer could strive with the help of grace</span></li><li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centering_prayer" title="Centering prayer">Centering prayer</a>, which is sometimes called contemplative prayer, although "It is not contemplation in the strict sense, which in Catholic tradition has always been regarded as a pure gift of the Spirit, but rather it is a preparation for contemplation."</li></ul><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Science of Spirituality's Definition:</span><br />They believe that Contemplative Prayer is<span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">the same practice, regardless of the religion a person holds</span>:<br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wzlmpBMbp1Y&amp;autoplay=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999&amp;border=0&amp;loop=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wzlmpBMbp1Y&amp;autoplay=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999&amp;border=0&amp;loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object></div><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /></span><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-size:130%;">Definitions from leading proponents of Contemplative Prayer</span></span><br /><br /><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Please note:</span> For those leaders who have <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">Red</span> in their quotes, let me say that I believe in every case their goals and motives are good. I understand the desire to try to find better ways of doing things than what is common in contemporary society. But I also believe that those methods and belief systems will, over the long term, cause a devaluing of rationality, truth and making distinctions, even more than the concept of "truth" is devalued in contemporary society today.</div><br /></div><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton">Thomas Merton</a>:</span><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">Contemplative consciousness is a trans-cultural,<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"> <span style="font-weight: bold;">trans-religious</span></span>, trans-formed consciousness … it can shine through this or that system, religious or irreligious</span>" (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Thoughts-East-New-Directions-Bibelot/dp/0811212939/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1238488061&amp;sr=8-1">Thoughts of the East</a>, P34)<br /><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">It is a glorious destiny to be a member of the human race, ... now I realize what we all are .... If only they could all see themselves as they really are ...I suppose the big problem would be that we would fall down and worship each other ... At the center of our being is <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin and by illusions</span>, a point of pure truth ... This little point ...is the pure glory of God in us. It is in everybody.</span>" (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Conjectures-Guilty-Bystander-Thomas-Merton/dp/0385010184/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1238488091&amp;sr=1-1">Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander</a>, 1989 edition, P157-158)<br /><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity</span> ... I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can.</span>" (David <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_2">Steindl</span>-<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_3">Rast</span>, "<a href="http://www.gratefulness.org/readings/dsr_merton_recol2.htm">Recollection of Thomas Merton's Last Days in the West</a>", Monastic Studies, 7:10)<br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e3ZdQdRMNq8&amp;autoplay=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999&amp;border=0&amp;loop=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/e3ZdQdRMNq8&amp;autoplay=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999&amp;border=0&amp;loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object></div><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Foster_%28religion%29">Richard Foster</a>:</span><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">Thomas Merton has perhaps done more than any other twentieth century figure to make the life of prayer widely known and understood</span>" (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Classics-Selected-Individuals-Disciplines/dp/0060628723/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1238488584&amp;sr=8-1">Spiritual Classics</a>, P17)<br /><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">There are those who feel that the Christian idea of meditation is synonymous with the concept of meditation centered in Eastern religion. In reality they stand worlds apart. Eastern meditation is an attempt to empty the mind; </span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">Christian meditation is an attempt to empty the mind</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span>in order to fill it</span>" (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Celebration-Discipline-Path-Spiritual-Growth/dp/0060628391/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1238488630&amp;sr=1-1">Celebration of Discipline</a>, 1st edition, 1978, P15)<br /><br />"<span style="color: rgb(0, 153, 0); font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Christian meditation has nothing to do with emptying our minds</span>"... "<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">Contemplation goes beyond words and symbols and concepts to the reality the words and concepts describe</span>...; Contrary to much current thinking, <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(0, 153, 0);">contemplation has nothing to do with making our minds blank </span>or having honey-sweet thoughts. As we have observed, its chief aim is to encounter Christ...</span>" (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Classics-Selected-Individuals-Disciplines/dp/0060628723/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1238490670&amp;sr=8-4">Spiritual Classics</a>, P10, 13, Joyce <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_4">Huggett</span>, edited by Richard Foster)<br /><br />Note that, <a href="http://flowstate.homestead.com/holmes.html">just like when we sleep or when we are focused on one task</a>, all mystics do fill the mind with something, whether they can recall the memory of their thoughts/emotions or not. So that is not the issue. The issue is whether we should be using our mind to think rationally, or whether we should be clearing our minds in an attempt to try to get away from rational thinking...<br /><br />So, for example, here is one of the forms of Contemplative Prayer that Richard Foster has promoted :<br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">A fourth form of meditation has at its objective to bring you into a deep inner communion with the Father... <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">In your imagination allow your spiritual body, shining with light, to rise out of your physical body</span>. Look back so that you can see yourself lying in the grass and reassure your body that you will return momentarily... Listen quietly, anticipating the unanticipated. Note carefully any instruction given. With time and experience you will be able to distinguish readily between mere human thoughts that may bubble up to the conscious mind and the True Spirit which inwardly moves upon the heart.</span>" (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Celebration-Discipline-Path-Spiritual-Growth/dp/0060628391/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1238488630&amp;sr=1-1">Celebration of Discipline</a>, 1st edition, 1978, P27)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Willard">Dallas Willard</a>:</span><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">Now because silence is such a radical thing and it does mean that you give up control of your situation, you can see what a tremendous impact that would have on the American church, in their services, in their meetings of various kinds. Suppose they practice silence in some of their meetings, that would actually give a place for God to break in... And you know that is the way God is, he more or less waits for us to get tired of running things then he is glad to help.</span>" (<a href="http://www.bestillprayer.com/">Be Still</a> DVD)<br /><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">Genesis began as an oral tradition of narrative stories passed down from generation to generation….These stories [gradually] took on theological meaning….Over time [they] were written down and collected together (Gen 12-50), and a prologue (Gen 1-11) was added….Borrowing from other creation accounts…stories with parallels to ancient Near Eastern religious narrative and mythology were reshaped with monotheistic intent….These strands of varied materials were gathered and edited into the written text…</span>" (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Renovare-Spiritual-Formation-Bible/dp/0060671084"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_5">Renovare</span> Spiritual Formation Study Bible</a>, Dallas Willard General Editor)<br /><br />So, if the beginnings of the Bible were ancient polytheistic myths that were reshaped with monotheistic intent (rather than the polytheistic myths being an offshoot of accurate monotheistic history), then Christianity already has much in common with the eastern religions and the Bible may not be fully reliable. You can see why experiencing God directly might be considered by some as a more pure form of "knowing" God than studying the Bible.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Keating">Thomas <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_6">Keating</span></a>:</span><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">[Contemplative Prayer]... is a process of inner transformation, a conversation initiated by God and </span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">leading, if we consent, to divine union</span><span style="font-style: italic;">. One’s way of seeing reality changes in the process. A restructuring of consciousness takes place which empowers one to perceive, relate and respond with increasing sensitivity to the divine presence in, through, and beyond everything that exists.</span>" (<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=pINxHWGTa6EC&amp;dq=amazon+Open+Mind,+Open+Heart&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ytdhOZhze-&amp;sig=wifMv6WpBBW5GHgMyS2_Ka9W498&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=_NbRSZvXFsXlnQf0l_i8BQ&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;resnum=3&amp;ct=result#PPA8,M1">Open Mind, Open Heart</a>, P4)<br /><br />Father Thomas <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_7">Keating</span> describes "Centering Prayer" which, as defined earlier, is preparation for Contemplative Prayer:<br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3IKpFHfNdnE&amp;autoplay=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999&amp;border=0&amp;loop=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3IKpFHfNdnE&amp;autoplay=0&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x3a3a3a&amp;color2=0x999999&amp;border=0&amp;loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object></div><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/authors/thomas_dubay.asp"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Thomas <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_8">Dubay</span>:</span></a><br />Father Thomas <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_9">Dubay</span> has a 13 part video series called "<a href="http://www.catholicfamilycatalog.com/contemplation_union_with_god_dvd_fr_thomas_dubay.htm">Contemplation: Union with God</a>" which has the most in depth discussion of Contemplative Prayer that I have found. His definition of contemplative prayer is as follows:<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Contemplative Prayer is </span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">not</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">:</span><br />1. a monastic exercise<br />2. a sterile intellectualism<br />3. <span style="font-weight: bold;"></span><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">inner introspection</span><br />4. an impersonal state<br />5. exalting in nature<br />6. visions and revelations<br />7. <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">strong emotional feelings</span> about God<br />8. <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">thinking</span> about Biblical concepts (discursive meditation)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Contemplative Prayer <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">is</span>:</span><br />1. being alone with the supreme Alone in a wordless presence to Him<br />2. <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">meeting in mystery</span> with the hidden God,<span style="font-weight: bold;"> <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">listening to the silent word</span></span> of God speaking in us<br />3. an <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">experience of the indwelling Trinity</span><br />4. a knowing, loving immersion in the divine beauty of God<br />5. a waiting and <span style="color: rgb(51, 204, 0); font-weight: bold;">thirsting for God</span><br />6. simply living the greatest of all the commandments<br />7.<span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"> a divine invasion</span>, the infinite enters our timed existence<br />8. reliving Jesus prayer in <span style="color: rgb(51, 204, 0); font-weight: bold;">solitude</span><br />9. being quenched at the fountain<br />10. a small gentle transformation into the divine likeness, by <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">seeing God as he really is</span><br />11. the <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">beginning of eternal life</span> here on earth<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Contemplative Bible Reading... <a href="http://web.chooseyourbeliefs.com/NavPressContemplativeBibleStudy.pdf">Small Group Discussion Guide</a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> by <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_10">NavPress</span> (The Navigators)</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">:</span><br />"<span style="font-style: italic;">Your aim is to <span style="color: rgb(51, 204, 0); font-weight: bold;">let go of issues and agendas that occupy your thoughts and move your mind instead to God</span>... The important thing is that your spine is straight... It is most important to relax the muscles in your throat... <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">Slow down your breathing</span>... praying the first phrase as your breathe in, praying the second phrase as you breathe out... <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">Pray also that as you open yourself to the spiritual world that you will be protected from evil</span>... <span style="color: rgb(51, 204, 0); font-weight: bold;">Focus on God</span>: you can do this by means of <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">an image</span> such as meeting God on the road and talking to him. As you inhale pray "Lord Jesus Christ" and as you exhale pray "Have Mercy". It may be helpful for you to find the right place. There is something about "<span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">sacred space</span>".</span>"<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Summary:</span><br />So, it does seem that there is more than one meaning being used for this term, Contemplative Prayer. In fact, with the wide variety of meanings there seems to be something here for people who come at this subject from almost any perspective.<br /><br />If you are concerned about Christians you know who never seem to grow out of their problems and you want a new "reformation" of discipline in the Christian church, but you don't want to focus on the Bible passages that point out people's "sins" and tells them that they need to change, then instead you can teach them Contemplative Prayer and hope that experiences during that practice will motivate them toward change.<br /><br />If you think this is a strange practice and have never heard of the Contemplative Prayer movement until now, then you don't have to worry about doing anything, at least until this teaching comes to your doorstep (as it came to mine)...<br /><br />If you are wanting to do something to make yourself feel more "spiritual" but you don't want to go into Eastern meditation, you can use the milder, more orthodox definitions of the term. Then later, when you are ready, you have the option to start changing your thinking to use the "deeper meanings" of the same term.<br /><br />If you think there is nothing wrong with Christians using meditation practices from other religions and are wondering what all the fuss in about, Contemplative Prayer will finally give your beliefs and practices more respectability within evangelical Christianity.<br /><br />If you are someone who places a higher value on truth than peace and you are eager for a battle where you will be an outsider and an underdog (like the reformers in the decades around the reformation), this is one good opportunity that can keep you busy.<br /><br />If you want to insure that peace and harmony are maintained (in opposition to those previous people who place a higher value on truth than peace), then you can support the more orthodox definitions of Contemplative Prayer and allow people to continue peacefully using the term Contemplative Prayer, with each person pouring in the meaning that they are most comfortable with. Most people will start out using the milder meanings in any case, so why bother to split hairs over the meaning of the term.<br /><br />And finally, if you are a Hindu or Buddhist who has felt that Christianity has devalued what your faith has to offer, this practice of Contemplative Prayer should at very least bring an understanding and appreciation of the meditation practices that have been categorically rejected by Protestant Christianity in the past. One of the major walls between Protestant Christianity and Hindu or Buddhist practices may finally be removed.<br /><br />So, by having multiple meanings for the same term, the practice of Contemplative Prayer can make itself attractive to a large section of society. But since this post is about defining our terms, here is one more definition you may want to understand:<br /><a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aobfuscation&amp;ie=utf-8&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;aq=t&amp;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&amp;client=firefox-a"><br />Obfuscation</a><span style="font-weight: bold;">: To be evasive, unclear or confusing; mystification; intending to conceal the truth by confusion</span><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2009/03/many-definitions-of-contemplative.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-5557439985453279887Mon, 16 Feb 2009 04:13:00 +00002011-10-03T03:56:53.215-05:00GraceLawUnderstanding Paul Through Speed Limits<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/anthea/182115635/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SOVMpQeTtrI/AAAAAAAAAo8/EOv7slDjmv8/s200/Speed+Limit+8.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5252688812077987506" border="0" /></a>One of the key concepts required to understand the Christian belief system is what Paul was trying to communicate concerning Christianity and it's relationship to law. A good modern day analogy to help illustrate what Paul was saying might be helpful: the concept of speed limits.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Problems with Speed Limits</span></span><br />Speed limits are good. They save lives. But focusing only on the speed limits themselves misses the point and can be a substitute for actually doing our greater duty as citizens, causing us to act inappropriately at times.<br /><br />Also, in order to receive your drivers license you likely had to sign a document saying that you would <a href="http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_a211.pdf">obey all traffic laws</a>, including the speed limits, at all times. Yet, many times you have broken that promise by going one or two miles an hour above the speed limit. So, rightfully you have violated your agreement and you should go to the DMV and turn in your license. Just because you have not been stopped by the police does not nullify the fact that you are a law breaker and deserve jail or at least to have your license revoked.<br /><br />Road planners study the best <a href="http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/speed_manage/eng_sol.htm">ways to decide how fast you should go</a>. They weigh all the various issues and choose the appropriate maximum speed for the area, considering that you could crash and/or kill someone (including children). So, the speed limits are likely better information than you could come up with. But the speed limits are fixed for all times and all situations. They cannot reflect the nuances of weather, whether children are around or not, etc... So, the posted speed limits are never the most optimal speed. Sometimes you should be able to drive faster safely, and other times to be safe you should drive below the limit. So, at best, speed limits are a best average guess at what a good speed should be in most situations.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Correct Attitude Toward Speed Limits</span></span><br />People have many different attitudes toward speed limits. Which one of these attitudes do you normally take?<br /><br />1. I should do whatever it takes to never break the speed limit (normally driving significantly below the limit)<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bekahstargazing/318930460/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SOVLvbi4aYI/AAAAAAAAAos/_O7pfzhtL8U/s200/Speed+Limit+30+80jpg.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5252687818617547138" border="0" /></a><br />2. I should go below the limit but it is O.K. if I go over a little from time to time<br />3. I should go right at or just a little below the speed limit<br />4. I should go right at the speed limit as much as possible, not over but not normally below either<br />5. I can go right at or a little above the speed limit<br />6. I can go up to five miles above the speed limit (since police generally will not give tickets for that)<br />7. It is O.K. if go any speed as long as I don't get caught<br /><br />Which one of these attitudes do you practice? Which one is the right answer? The right answer from the perspective of Paul is "none of the above".<br /><br />Answer: Study the best ways to decide how fast you should go, weigh all the various issues and go the appropriate speed for the situation, considering that you could crash and/or kill someone (including children). Don't worry about getting a ticket, rather worry about doing what is best in all situations.<br /><br />Note that this is a much higher standard than any of the seven options above. And it calls people to be more thoughtful and rational rather than blindly following standards. So, if you were shocked to understand that you were a law breaker before and deserved jail, now, even more shockingly, you find that you are supposed to live to an impossibly high standard. What hope do you have of meeting this higher standard if you couldn't even meet the simple speed limit standard?<br /><br />The speed limits can be of great help to you in deciding what speed to go, since the road planners have already gone though the work of trying to determine the best speed. But we have already noted that the speed limit can only be a best guess and cannot be the best actual speed for every given situation.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Speed Limit Enforcement and Grace</span></span><br />The goal of the police is to get people to follow the rules in order to reduce problems to society. Speed enforcement is really only intended for those people who at some point want to break the speed limit. If they see that you actually intended to follow the rules, they will many time give you grace, unless your actions encourage others to break the rules. And they will generally not pull people over unless they are going five or more miles an hour above the speed limit.<br /><br />But grace can be abused. On our highways many times it is socially acceptable, and even expected, to go well above the posted speed limit. And allowing society to accept law breaking in one area of life can cause the same thought processes to flow into other areas of life. A <a href="http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html">dilemma for road planners</a> is whether to raise the speed limits, allowing a greater number of more severe wrecks, or should they lower the speed limits, causing the vast majority of people to break the law. One answer to that dilemma may be to keep the best speed limit but raise the penalties significantly. That would keep most people from breaking the law and it would keep down the number of severe wrecks.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span></span><span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:130%;">Specific applications of the best attitudes towards speed limits</span><br />Analysis of some specific situations helps clarify this nuanced view of law.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">What would the person do in an area where there are no speed limits?</span> Some people would want to go much faster than posted limits, without thinking about how they might hurt other people.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">What about an area where the speed limit seems too low? </span>A good citizen will judge the risk and benefits of going against the speed limit. If they go above the speed limit they will willingly accept a ticket or jail time for that choice. Also, they will take into account that, even if they normally follow good practices concerning speed limits, they also need to take into account how they will be encouraging other, less conscientious people to break the speed limits when they should not do that. In these cases, it seems prudent, after doing what we can to get the speed limit changed, to accept and follow the speed limit as an example to others who may not understand the specific issues involved (and taking into account that you may be incorrect in your assessment of the speed limit being too low).<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">What about an area</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"> wher</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">e the speed limit seems too high? </span>A Christian will again in this case evaluate what should be the speed limit and if they should go lower they will do that. And just as they would work to get low speed limits raised, they should work to get speed limits that are too high lowered.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">What about in emergencies, like when going to the hospital when someone is dying?</span> If a life is in the balance then the driver needs to balance the benefits of getting to the hospital sooner with the risks of hurting others in getting there. If the risk is low and the benefits are high, then it seems morally acceptable to break the speed limit laws, though the driver should be willing to pay the ticket if they are pulled over.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:100%;">What if you don't remember the speed limit? </span> </span></span>Sometimes I forget what the speed limit is. If I did not understand the first principles of what the speed should be, then I may not know how fast I should go. But if I understand the first principles, then I will be more likely to go a correct speed even if I do not remember what the speed limit actually is.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:130%;">The Problem w</span><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/clintjcl/375585107/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SOVLQJSy6cI/AAAAAAAAAok/GStV20aiCys/s320/The+Rules.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5252687281142294978" border="0" /></a><span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:130%;">ith Laws</span><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> and Rules in general</span></span><br />The old testament, and governments in general, intend for people to understand the meaning of laws from first principles. The ten commandments are not the ten most important laws, but rather they are ten summarized categories of the other laws. Unfortunately, for some people the laws of the old testament (and the laws of their state) became the focus in and of themselves and the first principles behind the laws were sometimes neglected (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&amp;chapter=23&amp;verse=23&amp;version=31&amp;context=verse">Mat 23:23</a>). Jesus and Paul affirm that law is good, but they point people back to the first principles behind the many laws (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:17-18;&amp;version=49;">Mat 5:17-18</a>, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:31;&amp;version=49;">Rom 3:31</a>).<br /><br />It is true some laws are symbolic or may apply to a specific cultural situation but even the symbolic laws show us how important symbolism is to a culture. We should work to translate symbolic laws into appropriate symbolism for our culture today (such as laws against flag burning).<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Correct Attitude Toward Law and Rules in general</span></span><br />People have many different attitudes toward laws, and rules in general. Which one of these attitudes do you normally take:<br /><br />1. I should do whatever it takes to never break a rule of any kind.<br />2. I should be careful to not break rules but it is O.K. if I break the rules from time to time<br />3. I should try to get away with as much as possible, with out breaking the actual rules themselves<br />4. I can break the rules that no one really cares too much about, as long as I try to keep the rules people care about<br />5. It is O.K. to break any rules as long as I don't get caught<br /><br />In the old testament it at first seems that it was expected a person should obey laws at all costs, that was like answer number one. And in early Israel people did what is right in their own eyes (and that was not considered good) like answers 2 though 5.<br /><br />So, which one of these attitudes do you practice? Which one is the right answer? The right answer from the perspective of Paul is "none of the above".<br /><br />Answer: Study the the needs of society and decide what the best laws should be, weighing all the various issues and doing the appropriate thing in each situation, considering the effects you could have on others (including children). But since you may not have fully studied the issues and/or you may not fully know what is going on in a given area, laws are likely better information than you could come up with, so you should normally be happy to submit to a given law. Don't worry about getting punished for breaking the law, rather worry about doing what is best in all situations.<br /><br />Note that this is a much higher standard than any of the five options above. And it calls people to be more thoughtful and rational rather than blindly following standards. So, if you were shocked to understand that you were a law breaker before and deserved punishment (like some of the wording in the old testament), now you are supposed to live to an impossibly higher standard. What hope to you have of meeting this higher standard if you couldn't even meet the simple standard of following the various laws?<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Law and Rule Enforcement vs Grace</span></span><br />Is god, or governments for that matter, just waiting to pounce on us if we break the rules? No. They would rather us obey and hope for our reformation into people who will obey.<br /><br />Is God, and governments for that matter, waiting to isolate us if we continually, willing want to do things that hurt others? Yes. While that is not their first choice, if we continually hurt others then at very least we need to be separated from society.<br /><br />The new testament, and the goal of government in general, is like the person who is free to understand the situation, look at the laws, rules, etiquette, etc.. and then do the appropriate thing, which is almost always to follow the given law or rule. The problem with western society today is that many people interpret laws, rules, etiquette, etc.. to say that they are free to decide what we should do on their own, but without regard for either the rules or first principles.<br /><br />The Christian view of laws and rules prepares us to live in a good society. If all people understand and strive to follow rules appropriately, that in and of itself would make a society much closer to being like Heaven...<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:130%;">Specific applications of the best attitudes towards laws and rules</span><br />Analysis of some specific situations helps clarify the Paul's' view of law.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">What would the people do who lived when there was no laws written down?</span> People would do what was right in their own eyes. That would be good only if they fully understood the first principles and were motivated to make an informed decision in each case. But normally that is not the case.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">What about laws/rules that don't seem just? </span>Normally a Christian should obey the laws but if a law is considered potentially unjust, then a Christian will judge the risk and benefits of going against the law. If they go against a particular law, then they must be willing to accept the punishment for disobeying that law. Also, they will take into account that, even if they normally try to do what is right, they also need to take into account how they will be encouraging other, less conscientious people to break the laws. In these cases it seems prudent, after doing what we can to get the law changed, to accept and follow the law as an example to others who may not understand the specific issues involved (and taking into account that you may be incorrect in your assessment of the law being unjust).<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">What about laws/rules that seem to be too permissive</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">? </span>A Christian will again in this case evaluate what should be the law and if they should go do more than the law requires then they will do that. And just as they would work to get an unjust law overturned, they should work to get laws that are too permissive to be more restrictive.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">What about in emergencies, when it seems breaking laws </span><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mngyver/993823989/" onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SOVNRMLLgqI/AAAAAAAAApM/iIfPaLYvW38/s320/Speed+Limit+30+for+a+reason.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5252689498118783650" border="0" /></a><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">may be a good thing to do?</span> If a lives are in the balance then the person needs to balance the benefits of breaking a particular law with the risks of hurting others by breaking that law. If the risk is low and the benefits are high, then it seems acceptable to break a particular law, though the person should be willing to pay the price for breaking that particular law.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:100%;">What about the good person who doesn't know the </span></span></span><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:100%;">laws?</span></span></span> All of us break some laws at times, but it our commitment to honestly try to follow the laws of the state that makes us a good citizen, not the fact that we actually attain perfection in following all the laws. But we do have a responsibility to know the state we are under and to know the laws that state requires. To expect to be a considered a good citizen while following the laws of a different state is no reasonable.<br /><br />Billy Graham believes that good people from all religions go to Heaven. That is theoretically true, but the problem is the definition of who is "good". God considers a person "good" when they follow all of His laws appropriately. The problem we have seen is to really follow any given set of laws is an unattainably high standard. So, the "good" people from other religions that Billy Graham thinks should go to the Christian Heaven can not actually exist. If their religions are true, then perhaps they go to Nirvana, or whatever their religion believes happens after death. But if Christianity is true and they are not following the Christian God and His laws, then they cannot be considered part of Christian society, either before or after death.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">How to understand Paul's attitude towards laws</span></span><br />Paul was well educated. He understood that many seeming dilemmas are caused by a lack of understanding of the first principles underlying the concepts of law and grace. So to resolve the perceived problems Paul points the reader back to first principles: love your neighbor. In doing that he is not nullifying the concept of law. On the contrary, he is fully supporting the concept of law.<br /><br />Note that the same concepts apply to all the various forms of "law", including rules, best practices, etiquette, standards, etc.. All are different forms of the general concept of "law".<br /><br />We should honor and be grateful for good laws, since they are the out workings of our caring for each other. We should work to change inappropriate laws, since they are not fulfilling their intended function. And we should strive to follow good laws, even when we can get away with not following them and/or when there is a personal cost involved with following a particular law.<br /><br />We should break laws where necessary to follow higher first principles. But that should only be done in extreme circumstances where the letter of the law is not performing its intended function, and where breaking the law will not encourage others to break the laws when they should not.<br /><br />Regardless of the correctness of our actions (such as rushing someone who is dying to the hospital), we should gladly accept law enforcement without expecting grace, because law makers many times are not able to make distinctions between when a law should be broken or when it should not be broken. To do so would make an unwieldy law (like the tax code...). Be grateful when grace is extended to you and do not use it as license to break the laws.<br /><br />Teach your children and others the full concepts of law and grace and how they relate to each other. This is not an ancient or abstract concept, but one that can have a profound affect on how we live our lives.<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/understanding-paul-from-speed-limits.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-3678017873338427621Thu, 29 Jan 2009 03:44:00 +00002009-01-30T01:16:58.416-06:00Contemplative PrayerSatireYogaNew Health Craze Sweeps India<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/snoshuu/378948798/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 199px; height: 200px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SYHr7Jzy9FI/AAAAAAAABGo/k47HpjBA3qY/s200/Communion.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5296774038242391122" border="0" /></a>Scientific research has shown that antioxidants are extremely beneficial to health, possibly even helping prevent some forms of cancer. Wine has been found to be a <a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/uorm-mes032508.php">significant source of antioxidants</a>, as is unleavened bread. So many secondary schools and private Hindu colleges in India now offer a service to ensure that their students are able to take advantage of these health benefits in what is called "communion time". Some Hindu fundamentalists have objected saying that this is no more than western religion encroaching on their schools. But cooler heads have prevailed, with more moderate Hindus suggesting that students recite "do this in remembrance of Krishna" to ensure that this regimen is not at all related to Christianity.<br /><br />We asked the Director of Nutrition at a leading private Hindu college whether he had concerns about this practice. From the email response: "<span style="font-style: italic;">I see no danger of our Hindu students becoming Christians. Besides I have been taking grape juice for years for the antioxidant benefits and I have no desire to become a Christian</span>". It was unclear from the response why grape juice and bread was not just added to the lunch menu rather than being dispensed in communion time.<br /><br />Reaction from a leading Christian college has been mixed. Some professors have seen this as an opportunity that will facilitate the evangelization of India. Others insist that "communion time" is a powerful <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_practice">spiritual discipline</a> that, even though historically it has been associated with Christianity, can also be used by Hindu devotees to help in their <a href="http://www.biola.edu/spiritualformation/">spiritual formation</a>. Sti<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/myyogaonline/457353771/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 166px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SYHsAhnAqaI/AAAAAAAABGw/4hsLM6RX3Uo/s200/Yoga+Pose.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5296774130530560418" border="0" /></a>ll others insist there is no spiritual connection to the ritual itself, so it can be secularized and used by Hindus solely for the health benefits.<br /><br />Respected Christian leader <a href="http://battle4truth.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/heretic-quotes-from-tony-campolo/">Dr. Tony Campolo</a> was asked whether this might be common ground for the evangelization of Hindus. He said No it is not. "[But] ...<span style="font-style: italic;">if we are looking for common ground, can we find it in mystical spirituality, even if we cannot theologically agree?</span>". We also asked evangelist <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNCnxA91fHE&amp;feature=related">Rev. Billy Graham</a> what impact this could have on the future of the evangelism in India. Rev. Graham said "[Some good Hindus] ...<span style="font-style: italic;">may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their heart that they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light that they have and I think that they are saved and they are going to be with us in Heaven</span>".<br /><br />We asked a spokesman from a leading Christian graduate school whether the Bible would commend the use of communion by other religions. The spokesman said "<span style="font-style: italic;">from my contemplative meditation and Lectio Divina, I feel that God is saying to me, even though this may look like a western religious practice, when Hindus do communion time it is purely a Hindu practice having nothing at all to do with Christianity. Besides, many conservative Christian leaders have been blessed by using eastern spiritual techniques for years. It is about time that we return the favor</span>".<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2009/01/new-health-craze-sweeps-india.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-2308194828525946564Sat, 03 Jan 2009 01:08:00 +00002009-01-30T02:20:40.874-06:00Family TreeYour Family Tree is Actually a Family Diamond<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp2.blogger.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SCkWkn5Vf0I/AAAAAAAAAAU/wmY6RtCmnMQ/s1600-h/family+tree+shape.jpg"><img id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5199712063216516930" style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; width: 73px; cursor: pointer; height: 129px;" alt="" src="http://bp2.blogger.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SCkWkn5Vf0I/AAAAAAAAAAU/wmY6RtCmnMQ/s200/family+tree+shape.jpg" border="0" /></a><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >Many times people trace their <a href="http://genealogy-software-review.toptenreviews.com/">family tree</a> back to royalty or famous people and are somewhat proud to find who they are descended from. But the broader truth of the matter is more amazing than most people imagine. Ask yourself this question: <span style="font-style: italic;">How many people (i.e. positions in your family tree) do you think you have in 1100 A.D. (about 900 years ago)</span>?<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Your Ancestors</span><br />You can <a href="http://www.metacalc.com/">calculate the answer</a>. If you assume 30 years to be an average generation, then every 300 years </span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >(10 generations) you have 1024 ancestors (2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 g-grandparents, and so on up to 10 generations) and every additional 300 years </span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >multiplies the effect. So, 600 years ago you had about one million places in your f</span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >amily tree chart and 900 years ago, 1100 AD, you had approximately one billion ancestors in your family tree! And if any one of those ancestors had died before having children, you would not be here today.<br /><br />Now you may say, wait a minute that is too many ancestors, there must be a miscalculation. In 1000 A.D. there was only an estimated <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population">310 million people alive</a> and it is estimated that there wasn't a billion people in the world until 1804. The difference is that you have people who are related to you in more than one way. It is true that if you draw out your family tree, you will have around one billion slots </span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >to fill 900 years ago, but some individuals will fill many of the different slots.<br /><br /></span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >What can we understand from this? Basically, it appears that when you go back 90<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/navycrackerjack74/3213584886/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 188px; height: 200px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SYKoYP60rDI/AAAAAAAABHo/O-Q6qLoPjP8/s200/Royal+Crest.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5296981246284704818" border="0" /></a></span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >0 years or more, it is probably more accurate to say you are <a href="http://dna.ancestry.com/">related to whole people-groups</a>, i.e., most everyone in any group that intermarried. For example, if you have English royalty in your ancestors, it is probably more accurate to say that you are related to most of England at the time. You only</span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" > </span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >have the records of the royalty in your ancestry because royalty were the only ones we have kept records that far back for.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Your Descendants</span><br /></span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >Now the same math works for the future as well as the past. If your descendants average two descendants every generation of 30 years, in 900 years you will have approximately one billion descendants, but of course you will be only one of their one billion ancestors and you will likely be in their family tree in more than one slot. And the interesting thing is, now that births are fully recorded in most countries, 900 years from now your descendants will probably have all those slots filled in their one billion entry family tree. They may even have pictures and biographies of many of their one billion ancestors.<br /><br /></span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >Think of the shape of your full family tree. We call it a "tree" because that is the only part of the diagram that we know. Our actual family "tree" is in the shape of a diamond with an upside down tree on the bottom of the diamond, i.e., the shape you see at the start of this post (time goes from the top to the bottom, the number of your relatives is the width between the two lines). The first humans (either Adam and Eve, or the first "human" mutations, depending on your beliefs) are at the top where the two lines meet, you are where the bottom lines cross and your descendants are the area between the two end points of the lines at the bottom of the drawing. We think of o</span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >ur ancestors as a tree shape because that is the portion of people we know back "up" the diamond a little way. We don't have records back to the time when the tree shape starts converging back into a diamond shape.<br /></span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" ><br />At this point you may be thinking: that is quite interesting but what is the practical application of this knowledge. Here are some ways this can change your ways of looking at the world:<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/spine/2076729686/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SYKn0Vry5tI/AAAAAAAABHg/hwhAMDN2Eqg/s200/Family+Tree.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5296980629356996306" border="0" /></a><br /></span><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" >1. When you study early history, if you understand that <span style="font-weight: bold;">you are related to whole nations</span> and people groups, that makes the history much more interesting.<br />2. In trying to influence your descendants, to leave a lasting legacy you must leave them something that will<span style="font-weight: bold;"> influence your descendants over time more than all their other ancestors</span>, </span>otherwise you and your memory will be lost in a mass of ancestors in just a few generations.<br />3. <span style="font-weight: bold;">Try to influence society </span>at large rather than just your kids, since in 900 years your descendants will most likely be most of society itself. And if you don't have kids you can have the same affect by working to influence society and other people.<br /><br />So, you are truly part of the human race. In history and in the future ( if you have kids) you are related not just to individuals, but to people-groups.<span style="font-size:130%;"><span style=";font-family:trebuchet ms;font-size:100%;" ><br /></span><br /></span><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2009/01/your-family-tree-is-actually-family.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-7289076358927903742Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:56:00 +00002009-10-29T21:24:42.499-05:00Speed of LightCould Speed of Light in Intergalactic Space be different?Here is a thought. Is the speed of light the same in intergalactic space? The measurements of the speed of light seem to always be near stars, either on our end or near the star on the far end. The speed of light is a function of the permittivity and permeability of free space, both of which are derived experimentally and are not calculated from first principles. Could their values turn out to make the speed of light higher in parts of the universe that are not near any matter?<br /><br />Could the constant speed of light have to do with how it is constant in matter? So the constant speed of light near earth would work for just the same reason speed of light is constant, but at a different speed, in glass and water. Gravity or some other force of nearby matter would be working on a large scale just like it works near atoms on a small scale.<br /><br />Has anyone actually suggested that as a possibility? If not, why wouldn't that work?<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space</a><br /><br />Even in classical physics it was realized <a title="" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space#cite_note-12">[13]</a><a title="" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space#cite_note-Jackson-13">[14]</a> that the vacuum must have a field-dependent permittivity in the strong fields found near point charges.<br /><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_permittivity">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_permittivity</a><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity"></a></p><p>Vacuum permittivity (also called permittivity of free space or the electric constant) is the ratio D/E in <a title="Free space" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space">free space</a>.<br /><a href="http://bp2.blogger.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SBQC55bRSQI/AAAAAAAAAAM/4hzZbFPhzYw/s1600-h/00ea7d86eaf4dd3d7e9e0aaf6e11b1eb.png"><img id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5193779463956023554" style="FLOAT: left; MARGIN: 0px 10px 10px 0px" alt="" src="http://bp2.blogger.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SBQC55bRSQI/AAAAAAAAAAM/4hzZbFPhzYw/s200/00ea7d86eaf4dd3d7e9e0aaf6e11b1eb.png" border="0" /></a></p><p>8.8541878176… × 10−12 <a title="Farad" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farad">F</a>/<a title="Metre" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre">m</a> (or <a title="Coulomb" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb">C</a>2<a title="Newton" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton">N</a>-1m-2),<br />c (or c0) is the <a title="Speed of light" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light">speed of light</a> in free space.<a title="" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity#cite_note-0">[1]</a> </p><p></p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29</a></p>Permeability varies with magnetic field. Values shown above are approximate and valid only at the magnetic fields shown. Moreover, they are given for a zero frequency; in practice, the permeability is generally a function of the frequency. When frequency is considered the permeability can be <a title="Complex number" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number">complex</a>, corresponding to the in phase and out of phase response.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergalactic_space#Intergalactic_space">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergalactic_space#Intergalactic_space</a><br /><br /><br />The density of the Universe, however, is clearly not uniform; it ranges from relatively high density in galaxies (including very high density in structures within galaxies, such as <a title="Planet" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet">planets</a>, <a title="Star" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star">stars</a>, and <a title="Black hole" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole">black holes</a>) to conditions in vast voids that have much lower density than the Universe's average. The temperature is only 2.73 <a title="Kelvin" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin">Kelvin</a><a title="" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergalactic_space#cite_note-13">[14]</a>. <a title="NASA" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA">NASA</a>'s <a class="mw-redirect" title="COBE" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBE">COBE</a> mission(Cosmic Background Explorer) measured the temperature as 2.725 +/- 0.002 K.<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2009/01/could-speed-of-light-in-intergalactic.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-4656620959198848213Fri, 02 Jan 2009 02:14:00 +00002009-10-29T21:24:42.511-05:00cosmologyLogical PositivismLogical Positivism and CosmologyWhen I went through a course on Relativity, the professor said that relativity was at its foundation based on the philosophy of logical positivism (i.e., the only meaningful discussion is of observations, no discussion of a larger reality is meaningful), which seems to preclude larger discussions of cosmology. I also understand that Logical Positivism was the leading philosophy of science until the 1980s, but after that Realism became the more accepted philosophy of science.It seems like some of the contradictions of relativity and quantum mechanics could be explained if we took a realist interpretation of the formula (that they correctly predict measurements, but are from only a limited perspective of a external reality). Of course we would be reopening the questions of why the measured constant speed of light is always measured the same and Bell's experiments. But would that be less acceptable than to accept the contradictions implicit in the logical positivist interpretations of Relativity (like the twin paradox) and Quantum Mechanics (like Schroedinger's Cat)?So, in discussions of cosmology, shouldn't we be working to remove any logical positivist assumptions from our discussions? Specifically, isn't the changing of time and space a logical positivist concept (those concepts would be valid when predicting measurements, but not when discussing overall cosmology). And isn't the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics (that the world is probabilistic in reality) a logical positivist concept as well?Time and space seem like abstract human concepts which use clocks (uniformly repeating phenomena) and rulers (uniformly spaced phenomenon) to compare with other phenomena. I can see how rulers and clocks can be affected by the world, but it seems like the concepts of time and space should not be entangled with specific clocks and rulers in discussions of cosmology.And even if our measurements of small phenomena give us a probabilistic answer, isn't that a limitation of our measures rather than an actual view of the world itself? Or alternatively, are we measuring the probability of a particular event occurring rather than proving that reality is, in and of itself, probabilistic?Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't think of what it is. Maybe the constant speed of light and Bell's experiments are so compelling that we just have to accept the contradictions, but I am not convinced. Am I off track and missing something here? Is there other evidence that I am not considering?<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2009/01/logical-positivism-and-cosmology.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-1690664591905444666Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:14:00 +00002009-01-30T00:16:03.457-06:00MormonismThe Book of Mormon: "I Know" versus "I Believe"<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/amymememe/70776231/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SYJlvBJqErI/AAAAAAAABHA/7R2NMPood_s/s200/Book+of+Mormon.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5296907970178323122" border="0" /></a>We home school our kids. So to teach them about LDS (Mormon) beliefs and history we visited many of the Mormon historical sites. We visited <a href="http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/location/0,10634,1828-1-1-1,00.html">Palmyra, NY</a> (<a href="http://www.hillcumorah.org/">Hill Cumora</a>), <a href="http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/location/0,10634,3986-1-1-1,00.html">Kirtland, OH</a>, <a href="http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/region/0,10749,1778-1-1,00.html">Navoo, IL</a>, <a href="http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/location/0,10634,1844-1-1-1,00.html">Carthage, IL</a>, <a href="http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/location/0,10634,1812-1-1-1,00.html">Independence, MO</a>, and <a href="http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/region/0,10749,1779-1-1,00.html">Salt Lake City, UT</a>. We also asked the local Mormon missionaries to visit and discuss LDS beliefs. If you have ever talked to LDS missionaries or gone to a Mormon historical site you will likely have heard someone tell you "<span style="font-style: italic;">I know the Book of Mormon is true</span>", because they asked God and He gave them a feeling that it was true. But can they honestly say that they "know the Book of Mormon is true"?<p>The summary statements from the video "<a href="http://store.fairlds.org/prod/p9780842526913.html">Journey of Faith: The New World</a>", do still sum up the situation well. There are possibilities, but no actual conclusive evidence in support of the <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/">Book of Mormon</a> has been found to date.</p><p>But of course the same could be said of any belief system. If we have objective, conclusive evidence about something (evidence that is convincing to a reasonable skeptic) then we say we "<span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">know</span>" something is true. But if we do not have that objective, conclusive evidence then we say that we "<span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">believe</span>" something is true. So, by definition, no belief system has objective, conclusive proof for their beliefs. Many religions have strong feelings and experiences which support their beliefs, but feelings and experiences are not grounds for saying you "know" something is true.<br /></p><p><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Joseph Smith believed the Battle of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumorah">Cumora</a> was in New York</span></span><br /></p><p>Here is one question to consider. How would a 19th century person interpret the discussions in the Book of Mormon concerning the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephite">Nephites</a> and the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanite">Lamanites</a> and where they lived? It seems clear that readers of that day, including Joseph Smith, interpreted the Book of Mormon to be saying that the Nephites and Lamanites lived in North and South America rather than in the north and south parts of central America. But DNA evidence and travel time issues seems to <a href="http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml#lamanite">prohibit the possibility that the North American Indians were Lamanites</a> (and therefore Israelite descendants). So even if evidence of civilizations in central America at about the right time is found, it would still be a problem that Heavenly Father did not reveal to Joseph Smith the correct interpretation of the Book of Mormon conce<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulsid/56468268/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SYJlYoB8eHI/AAAAAAAABG4/1ZDU2J014r0/s200/Mormon+Cathedral.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5296907585477965938" border="0" /></a>rning the location of the Hill Cumora and about the North American Indians being the descendants of the Lamanites. Every Mormon should watch the video "<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o">DNA and the Book of Mormon</a>" and then compare what is said to the rebuttals from <a href="http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.html">FAIR</a> and <a href="http://mi.byu.edu/display/topical.php?cat_id=488">FARMS</a> (The Maxwell Institute), the two leading Mormon <a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apologetics">Apologetics</a> groups. True beliefs can only be strengthened when tested.<br /></p><p>I've studied both <a href="http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/">Mormon</a> and <a href="http://www.utlm.org/">anti-Mormon</a> literature. Many of the reasons people dismiss Mormonism are either not valid or are not conclusive. But two seemingly valid issues to consider are: 1. Is what Joseph Smith's mother wrote in her biography concerning his father's dreams and Joseph Smith Junior's stories accurate? and 2. if Heavenly Father was originally a man and all his ancestors were once a man too, then who was the first God, how did he get there and what did each God create?<br /></p><p><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Joseph Smith's Mother's Biography</span></span><br /></p><p>In the original 1853 edition of Joseph Smith's History by his mother, Lucy Mack Smith, two passages seem to say Joseph Smith Junior and his father had information from the book of Mormon before the gold plates were actually found. Read the dream that Joseph Smith Senior had starting on page 55 of the <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=jMmaOm3WSj4C&amp;dq=Biographical+sketches+of+Joseph+Smith+lucy+smith&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=4wl5-WXemV&amp;sig=zUT24Yy2hE6A_2IQRuad-SjAdYA&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;resnum=1&amp;ct=result#PPA55,M1">1908 edition</a> of her biography and compare it to the same vision listed in the Book of Mormon in <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/8">1st Nephi Chapter 8</a>. You must agree that both Joseph Smith Senior's dream and Lehi's dream listed in the Book of Mormon are so similar that it is highly likely they are both referencing the same dream. You can take the position that Heavenly Father gave both Joseph Smith Senior and Lehi the same dream 2450 years apart, but you have to admit that another logical possibility is that Joseph Smith Junior knew of his father's dream and added it to the book of Mormon.<br /></p><p>Then also see the passage on page 85 of the original <a href="http://www.centerplace.org/history/misc/jsp.htm#19">1853 edition</a> of Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith... (his mother's biography) which says:</p><p>"<span style="font-style: italic;">During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode, their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.</span>" </p><p>Note that was before Joseph Smith Junior found the plates. So, logically, either God was giving him detailed information about the historical habits of the ancient North American Indians or Joseph Smith made up the stories and then recorded them in the book of Mormon.</p><p><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">How many God's have there been and what did they create?</span></span><br /></p><p>According to the fifth LDS President, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow">Lorenzo Snow</a>, the LDS church teaches "<span style="font-style: italic;">As man now is God once was, an</span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/amymememe/70727345/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SYJnDGJVFUI/AAAAAAAABHI/8V6nH4FCmNg/s200/Palmyra+Room.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5296909414628136258" border="0" /></a><span style="font-style: italic;">d as God now is man may become</span>". If <span style="font-style: italic;">our</span> Heavenly Father was originally a man and all his ancestors were once a man too, then who was the first God and how did he get there (I'm not convinced by the<a href="http://en.fairmormon.org/Infinite_regress_of_Gods%3F"> infinite regression of Gods</a> concept). And related to that is what exactly did Heavenly Father create, was it the universe, our galaxy or just our solar system. The official LDS <a href="http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-4,00.html">Gospel Principles</a> book says that He created the universe, but if that is the case, then what is left for the other Gods to create (I don't buy the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse">multiverse</a> concept)? See <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132">D&amp;C 132:19-2</a><a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132">2</a> where it says men may become Gods.</p><p><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">A Change of Debto</span></span><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">rs is not Forgiveness</span></span><br /></p><p>The historical Christian concept of the value of Jesus's sacrifice is that he paid our debt and then forgave us if we are willing to follow him. This concept of complete forgiveness up front seems to be in stark contrast to other religions, where some form of good works is required in order to be acceptable to God. Yet the LDS concept of the value of Jesus's sacrifice seems to be different than the historic Christian concept in this key area. The LDS concept seems to be that God was going to put us in jail (or give us spiritual death) for non-payment, but Jesus paid our debt so that we will instead repay him the full debt, but he will spread out the payments so that we can afford the repayment schedule. See the parable from <span class="featurestext"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd_K._Packer">Elder Boyd K. Packer</a>, President of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_of_the_Twelve_Apostles_%28LDS_Church%29">Quorum of the Twelve Apostles</a>, written in the official <a href="http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-18,00.html">Gospel Principles Chapter 12</a>.<br /></span></p><p><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Good People with Important Questions to Answer</span></span><br /></p><p>I like the Mormon people I have met. They were surprisingly open and honest, even concerning the hard questions listed above. So it is good to try to get past common stereotypes and fear of people who believe differently. It is also important for each of us to take a look at the hard questions concerning our beliefs. So if you are LDS (or <a href="http://www.cofchrist.org/history/default.asp">Community of Christ</a>) then I hope you will do that with the questions listed above. And, even though they may not think so, atheists and agnostics have hard questions about their beliefs that they should look squarely in the face as well. So Mormonism is not the only belief system that has hard questions to answer.</p><p>For example, atheists and agnostics should consider the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle">apparent design of physical constants</a>. And since the human brain has the <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/home/00/0501-brain/hmcap.html">most complexity per square inch of anything we know of</a>, does that imply the purpose of the universe may be to support human life? And can a good human society<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seabird/2446760253/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SYJp8AiaDqI/AAAAAAAABHQ/VoenkjIJGjM/s200/Mormon+Christus.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5296912591398506146" border="0" /></a> ultimately result if there is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism">no external source of value for humanity</a>? Also, we should consider the future implications of evolution, if it is true, such as future super-humans and that some form of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism">social Darwinism</a> (not racial) actually would seem to be a good thing for society in the long run (if evolution is true). So, Mormons are not the only ones who need to consider the hard questions about their beliefs.</p><p>We all look at the evidence and basically bet our lives on our best guess as to what we think is ultimately true. Family, friends, relationships and society are strong forces that usually sway people one way or another, which is why most people stay in the belief system of the social group they belong to. But ultimately we should ruthlessly follow truth, wherever that search may lead.</p><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/book-of-mormon-i-know-versus-i-believe.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-2102150587553655304Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:18:00 +00002009-04-02T01:02:46.805-05:00AgnosticismAtheismReligulousAnswers to Religulous Questions<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/dlanger/306655197/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 133px; height: 200px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQes1fciveI/AAAAAAAAAsM/QzpVxNTOA4U/s200/Bill+Maher.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262364724579974626" border="0" /></a>I went to see the movie <a href="http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_0">Religulous</span></a> some time ago. As a conservative Christian, I actually thought probably 90% of the approximately 167 issues raised in the movie were valid points or honest questions. But I also came away feeling that the other 10% were somewhat deceptive and/or designed to shut down discussion rather than to consider the issues objectively (that kind of content, of course, was likely included to make the movie more interesting, since the movie was intended to make fun of various religious beliefs and practices). I agree with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Maher">Bill <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_1">Maher</span></a> that much in Christianity and religion in general is deserving of ridicule, as <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2044:13-20;&amp;version=49;">Isaiah ridiculed those who worship wooden idols</a>. But I also came away thinking that a few nights of honestly searching the Internet for answers should have come up with better answers than many of those offered in the movie.<br /><br />In any case, the <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_2">Religulous</span> movie does highlight some important questions that need to be addressed and answered in an easy to use format. And in some cases I'm not convinced that the popular answers are at all satisfactory, at least to me. But I didn't hear any question or insinuation in the movie which didn't have an answer that I was comfortable with believing. So, I think specifically answering all of Bill <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_3">Maher's</span> questions from the movie in one place is a beneficial (though long...) exercise and that is what I have tried to do in this post.<br /><br />This was a much longer task than I first thought (167 assertions), so I didn't have as much time as I would have liked to research all the questions. There are probably more thorough answers out there to many of these particular questions and I will add and make more changes as I get time in the future. But I did think it was worth getting this full framework of discussion published so that all the issues can be addressed in one place and so it can be demonstrated that there is no assertion in the movie that does not have a reasonable answer of some kind.<br /><br />Note that if you want to link to a particular answer in this post you can link to it using "http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#27" but then replace the "27" with either the number or letter of the answer you wish to link to.<br /><br />Please note that I will be answering the claims against <a href="http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/">Protestant Christianity</a> only. <a href="http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm">Catholics</a>, <a href="http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/">Mormons</a>, <a href="http://www.islamicity.com/">Muslims</a> and <a href="http://www.scientology.org/"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_4">Scientologists</span></a> are better equipped to defend their own beliefs (assuming their beliefs are defensible, I will link to their posts in defense of their beliefs as I find them). It is also interesting to me that the only faiths that Bill <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_5">Maher</span> did not ridicule, or even mention, were the eastern faiths (<a href="http://www.hindunet.org/">Hindu</a>, <a href="http://www.buddhanet.net/">Buddhist</a>, etc..). But of course a pantheist faith (everything is God) is very similar to Mr. <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_6">Maher's</span> practical atheist beliefs (there is no God). To say something is everywhere is pretty close to saying it is nowhere. And I assert that his viewpoint is one of being a "practical atheist" because every agnostic (doubter) has to live their life with the practical assumption that one of the belief systems is true, even if they have no way of knowing what is true. And for most agnostics the belief system they choose to live their life by seems to be atheism.<br /><br />Here are the main web sites related to the movie:<br /><a href="http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/">http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/</a><br /><a href="http://disbeliefnet.com/">http://disbeliefnet.com</a><br /><a href="http://www.billmaher.com/">http://www.billmaher.com/</a><br /><a href="http://therealbillmaher.blogspot.com/2008/10/religulous.html">http://therealbillmaher.blogspot.com/2008/10/religulous.html</a><br /><br />I will list and answer the main points at issue first, then go through each point as listed chronologically in the movie, referencing these main points where appropriate:<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Main Points Answered</span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Faith and Reason</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="A">A.</a> Faith does not mean to suspend reason and in fact reason requires faith</span><br />All deductive logic requires initial premises which are held by inductive belief rather than reasoned out through logic. Also, our everyday existence requires us to act on both belief and reason in order to function. For example, there is no way to know for sure that an elevator isn't about to fail and fall to the ground, but we step on elevators all the time. We reason that they haven't failed very often, so they are unlikely to fail for us, which may be 99.9999% true. But it is belief that bridges the gap from 99.9999% to be effectively 100% and allows us to step on the elevator. So, faith and reason are intertwined and we can't get away from using both.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="B">B.</a> Doubt (Agnosticism) still requires effectively practicing a faith</span><br />We all have to live our life based on foundational assumptions that we can not (or at least do not take the time to) prove. In fact, each of us use faith in something every minute of our lives. I have faith that my house will not fall down, that the elevator I step in will not fall, that Mars is still there, etc.. when I have no direct first hand evidence that any of those beliefs are accurate. Instead I rely on probability based on what I see happening to other people and based on what I am told by "experts". So, we all have lots of faith, the question is what is appropriate to put our faith in.<br /><br />If I have doubt that I can ever know something in particular, and if my life choices would change depending on the answer to the question that I cannot know, I still have to choose which way to live my life. Basically, even if the answer is a toss up, I still have to throw the dice and make a choice. So, someone who calls themselves agnostic still has to live there lives either as if no god exists or as if some form of god exists. Doubting doesn't get around the fact that we have to make choices to live our life based on some religious (or non-religious) assumptions, even if we think there is no way to make a good choice. So, even agnostics, in practice, have to choose their beliefs.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="C">C.</a> God is hiding himself, like a billionaire might hide his wealth when looking for a mate</span><br />It seems that the main plot of the Bible is how to give free choice while still ending up with a society where people always will choose what it right. If God were to display his power in front of us we would naturally want to submit out of fear, if for no other reason. But it seems God wants to give people the ability to choose whether to follow him or not, without intimidation. That way we each can determine for ourselves whether we want to follow God, without being influenced by his power. That would seem to be similar to a billionaire looking for a mate. They would be prudent to temporarily hide their wealth from potential mates so that they will not want to marry just for the wealth. In the same way, God is hiding himself from us in order to give us a more truly free choice, in a way the angels never had. See <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045:15;&amp;version=49;">Is 45:15</a> and <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2010:1,4;&amp;version=49;">Psalm 10:1,4<br /></a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="D">D.</a> There are good logical reasons to believe in God</span><br />The Bible says that we can know God exists because that is evident in the design of nature <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:18-22;&amp;version=49;">(Rom 1:18-22</a>). But if a Creator exists, then man would need to submit to the Creator. So, Humans have a conflict of interest when it comes to determining whether God exists or not. In many cases people choose to believe that something can be created from nothing (a logical impossibility unless you redefine the term "nothing") rather than believe in something that has always existed and has the power to create everything else.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Law and Justice</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="E">E.</a> Just laws and strong governments are better than libertarianism</span><br /><a href="http://www.lp.org/">Libertarianism</a> says that people should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt other people. But the problem is that some acts benefit people in the short term but then hurt those same people and others in the long term, and other things seem good at first glance but actually have a devastating effect on people and others.<br /><br />I don't feel like I need to regulate my kids to tell them not to touch a hot stove. They will only do that once and the pain they will get will not kill them. But if I have a bathtub full of boiling water, I do need to restrict them from getting anywhere near the bath tub, since one slip could severely affect them or even end their lives. And I don't let my kids eat candy all the time because I know candy tastes good at first but isn't good for them in the long term. So, there are some areas where complete freedom is desirable, but there are other areas where external limitations benefit people more than they hurt people.<br /><br />Also, we are social creatures by nature so many things that we think only affect individuals actually can affect society. Even in the case where someone only kills themselves and thinks they are not harming anyone else, someone else has to bury them and dispose of their assets.<br /><br />So, rules, laws, commandments, best practices, recommendations, rules of etiquette, etc.. seem to be necessary from outside sources in cases where we may be in danger of having problems occur and do not know it, or where we may be drawn to an initial benefit that hurts us and/or others later. And whether something should be enforced by law or only be recommended, like etiquette, depends on the social compact that is agreed upon by the majority in the society. That social compact should seek for the greatest good for the most people rather than going to the lowest common denominator.<br /><br /><a href="http://world.std.com/%7Emhuben/libindex.html">Critiques Of Libertarianism</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="F">F.</a> God's laws and morality makes sense</span><br />If God's laws were actually followed then many of the problems of the world would go away. The Bible includes a direct welfare system (no government overhead) where the recipients still had to work for their wages. It had a limit on lifetime borrowing that would keep debt from being passed from one generation to the next (something that would have benefited our next generation...). Israel was never taught to seek to dominate the world like some of their neighbors did (Egypt, Persia, Greece and Rome), but rather they were taught to do what it takes to keep their society together and maintain their high standards (a teaching which has served them well for several thousand years).<br /><br />And the strict punishments listed in the Bible were likely more moral than our current laws, in aggregate. Which is more "caring", having some harsh laws such as the death penalty that no one breaks, or having lenient laws such as prison and fines that millions of people have to pay? Because of our backgrounds, we assume that if there was a harsh penalty that lots of people would be paying that penalty. We can't conceive of a society where almost everyone obeys the laws... So, part of the problem in American society is that we have been so "caring" that we have come close to giving up the concepts of strong law and justice as being foundational to a good society.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.theologyonline.com/DEATH.HTML">God and the Death Penalty</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="G">G.</a> "Judging" is necessary and good</span><br />"<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:1-5;&amp;version=49;">Do not judge</a>" is just one of the Biblical concepts that has been taken out of context and made to mean almost the opposite of what was intended. Look at what the author is saying in <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:1-5;&amp;version=49;">Mat 7:1-5</a>. Actually they are saying, don't be hypocritical when you judge. First judge yourself with the same standard, then judge others.<br /><br />"Judging" is required and good. That is why one book of the Bible is called "Judges"... If we are to refrain from making judgments, how can we discriminate between good and bad in any area of life?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:1-5;&amp;version=49;">1 Cor 6:1-5</a> Christians should be able to be wise judges of other Christians<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:24;&amp;version=49;">John 7:24</a> Judge with righteous judgment<br /><a href="http://www.letusreason.org/Pent44.htm">The cult of “Do not Judge”</a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><br />Reliability of the Bible</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="H">H.</a> The Bible is more reliable than any other book that old</span><br />The Bible has more transcripts than any other book of that time period. The transcripts agree on the essentials of the Christian faith. Other contradictory books were written decades or centuries later and have an obvious bias based on who wrote them (usually <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_7">gnostics</span></a>).<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201:16&amp;version=49">1 Peter 1:16 </a>- some where eyewitnesses<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&amp;chapter=1&amp;version=49">Luke 1:1-4</a> - the writer talked to the eyewitnesses and was careful to relay the truth of the eyewitness accounts.<br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=F2758DCC10EB65E3">Craig-<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_8">Ehrman</span> debate on Resurrection of Jesus</a><br /><a href="http://www.newchristian.org.uk/ncbibleok.html">Is the Bible Reliable</a><br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/p/F2758DCC10EB65E3"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/p/F2758DCC10EB65E3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="385"></embed></object></div><br /><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="I">I.</a> Just because something is mentioned without comment in the Bible doesn't mean that it is recommended or supported by the Bible.</span><br />The Bible relates much history without comment. The assumption is that the reader is a person who is familiar with other parts of the Bible who therefore would be able to make their own judgments about what is good or bad. So, just because the Bible tells of something bad that happened does not necessarily mean that the Bible approves of what happened.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="J">J.</a> The Bible is accurate where it touches on natural science </span><br />We talk about how the sun rises and the sun sets without implying that the sun is going around the earth. Similarly, the Bible talks from an earth centered perspective without contradicting anything in science. Also, the Bible talks about many of the natural concepts that we study using the scientific method today.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.carm.org/bible/ms_science.htm">Scientific Accuracies of the Bible </a><br /><a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n3/science-or-the-bible">Science or the Bible?</a><br /><a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/creation_confirms_bible/creation-confirms-bible">Creation: Science Confirms the Bible Is True </a>(Video)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="K">K.</a> If a creator God exists, then He should likely be able to do anything that is logically doable, even "miracles"</span><br />The definition of miracles is something that is unexplained and isn't repeatable. So, by definition, miracles can not be analyzed by the scientific method, which requires repeatability. It would seem to be much easier to change things that already exist than to create things out of nothing. So, if a creator God exists who made everything, then it would seem that God should also be able to do anything He wanted to. And the things that He did which He did not set to repeat on queue would naturally be called miracles. So, if a creator God exists that intervenes sometimes with this world, then we would expect miracles to occur.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="L">L.</a> If something the Bible says sounds wrong, it may be our understanding that is incorrect.<br /></span><span>For most of us, the Bible explains many concepts that we did not understand before reading the Bible. So, when we come upon something that doesn't seem to make sense, then we should give the Bible the benefit of the doubt<span style="font-weight: bold;">. </span>Also, since God<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">,</span> almost by definition<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">,</span> can do whatever He wants, we can't necessarily use the improbability of an occurrence to discredit the reliability of the Bible.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Specific Questions relating to Bible accuracy</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="M">M.</a> The Jesus story is not a copy of the story of other gods</span><br />This is an area where Bill <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_9">Maher</span> really should have done his homework...<br /><a href="http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm">Doesn't the religion of Mithra prove that Christianity is false?</a><br /><a href="http://www.blackapologetics.com/harejesus.html">links between Krisha and Jesus</a><br /><a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html">Why December 25<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_10">th</span>?</a><br /><a href="http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_11">Aren</span>’t there some striking parallels between the Jesus and Horus stories?</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="N">N.</a> Homosexuality is not natural, marriage is natural and is the foundational organization</span><br />The evidence of a genetic predisposition to being gay is sketchy at best. But<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">,</span> even if there were a predisposition in some people, that does not make the behavior any less problematic. If people have a predisposition to anger or depression, it does not mean that we should allow them to become violent or depressed without working to end the inappropriate actions.<br /><br />Marriage is supposed to be <span>"one adult male and one adult female sharing everything for life</span>". Many heterosexuals have given up on the "for life" part, substituting instead the<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span> concept that the marriage contract is only valid as long as <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span>"love" exists. Now we are considering giving up the "male and female" part of the definition. In the future some may rethink the "adult" and the "one" concepts as well. Maybe the Mormons previous views on polygamy will become more in vogue in the future... But,<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span> the point is that the reason for marriage is to make a stable unit to bring up children and to protect the married couple themselves. Society has incurred a significant cost already as the concept of marriage has changed, which is why the proposed additional changes seem to not be as big of<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"> </span>a problem as it once would have been.<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2018:22-24;&amp;version=49;">Lev 18:22-24</a>, Lev 20:13, Gen. 19:4 -13, Jude 7, 2 Peter 2:6, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, 1 Tim 1:8-10, Rom. 1:26-28<br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Ex-gays-Longitudinal-Religiously-Mediated-Orientation/dp/083082846X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1230784393&amp;sr=8-1"><span>Ex-gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation</span></a><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /></span><a href="http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html"><span>Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems</span></a><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /></span><a href="http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/homotheo.html"><span>Homosexual Theology</span></a><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="O">O.</a> Significant problems with believers and the church (and the existence of evil in general) do not disprove the existence of God, in fact the Bible warns there will be such problems with the church.</span><br />In fact, most of what Paul writes is addressing problems in the church.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Why we are here, why there is evil</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="P">P.</a> God has an overall goal that is best, even though it includes terrible evil and problems. Free choice requires evil to exist.</span><br />Love seems to require free choice because it cannot be coerced. But free choice implies the ability to choose badly, especially for people who will live on (after death in our case) for the foreseeable future. So, giving Adam and Eve free choice would seem that over the long term, they and their descendants would tend to choose badly in most every way imaginable. Evil would seem to be caused as a byproduct of love and free choice. So, how would you resolve that dilemma? It appears that God's answer was first to pay the price and show the way of how to live without choosing wrong: by sacrificing yourself. Then ultimately, he allows free choice but separates out those who choose to follow him (i.e., and choose what is right) from those who ultimately choose to follow themselves. That way he can have a city with people who still have free choice but that will also choose right, even for the foreseeable future.<br /><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/06/salvation-misses-point.html">Salvation misses the point</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Truth and Religion</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="Q">Q.</a> Just because some religions are untrue does not mean all are untrue, and in fact at most only one can be true in their core beliefs</span><br />It is not rational to believe that contradicting concepts are each true in the same way, so more than one religion (each of which contradict each other) cannot be true. But that does not mean that none of the religions are true, you just have to evaluate all of them (including atheism) and choose the one that you think is most likely true.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br />R. The search for truth in religion is not detrimental to humanity.</span> - The search for truth is always a good thing because we have to first accurately understand the world around us before we can even hope to make good choices. The problem is not with the search for truth but rather when people believe they have found truth but are actually believing something that is not true. Truth by it's very nature is exclusive. There can be only one item that is true (and good) but there can be thousands of competing items that are false (and harmful).<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br />S. Christianity is better for society than atheism</span> - Christianity has similar benefits as government, except it can cause people to focus on their internal motives better than the state can. Also, our living under our government is only temporary, while we live, but living under the government of God goes on forever. So, Christianity gives transcendent value to law, justice and morality.<br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/get/flashplayer/current/swflash.cab" id="Player_8ccc635b-0451-44ab-9eef-782f8b9c74dd" width="510" height="425"> <param name="movie" value="http://ws.amazon.com/widgets/q?ServiceVersion=20070822&amp;MarketPlace=US&amp;ID=V20070822%2FUS%2Fit4e-20%2F8007%2F8ccc635b-0451-44ab-9eef-782f8b9c74dd&amp;Operation=GetDisplayTemplate"><param name="quality" value="high"><param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://ws.amazon.com/widgets/q?ServiceVersion=20070822&amp;MarketPlace=US&amp;ID=V20070822%2FUS%2Fit4e-20%2F8007%2F8ccc635b-0451-44ab-9eef-782f8b9c74dd&amp;Operation=GetDisplayTemplate" id="Player_8ccc635b-0451-44ab-9eef-782f8b9c74dd" quality="high" bgcolor="#ffffff" name="Player_8ccc635b-0451-44ab-9eef-782f8b9c74dd" allowscriptaccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" align="middle" width="510" height="425"></embed></object> <noscript><a href="http://ws.amazon.com/widgets/q?ServiceVersion=20070822&MarketPlace=US&ID=V20070822%2FUS%2Fit4e-20%2F8007%2F8ccc635b-0451-44ab-9eef-782f8b9c74dd&Operation=NoScript">Amazon.com Widgets</a></noscript></div><br /><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;font-size:130%;" >Each issue listed in order discussed in the movie</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="1">1.</a> I hate prophesy</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> (assumes prophesy is never true) </span>- <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a></span>, It is right to hate false prophesy, which is what the overwhelming majority of prophesies are. But if there is a God who can fully control the present world, He would be able to know the future by his complete control of the <a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mockstar/237671091/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkSoNuAssI/AAAAAAAAAs8/cWIMxAqjjKg/s200/armageddon.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262758121645847234" border="0" /></a>present. So, if an all controlling God exists, then it would be expected that He could know the future and could tell some people.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="2">2.</a>Religion is detrimental to the progress of humanity</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#R">R</a></span>, False beliefs can be detrimental, but true beliefs are, of course, beneficial. And even in religions that may be false, self sacrifice, good attitudes, and submission to proper authority are some of the key attributes that most of those religions work to obtain in their followers, which should be seen as beneficial to society.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="3">3.</a> Religion is selling an invisible product</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#D">D</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="4">4.</a> People will make up any story and cling to it</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#A">A</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="5">5.</a> They believe that on Sunday they are drinking the blood of a 2000 year old god </span>- That is a reference to the Catholic belief in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation">transubstantiation</a>, a<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span> belief that most Protestants do not agree with.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="6">6.</a> They call me the seeker (music)</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#B">B</a></span>, Doubting is not true "seeking", A true seeker understands their failure to be what they should be - "I won't get what I'm after until the day I die."<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="7">7.</a> Circumcision </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">w</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">as strange when first introduced</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#L">L</a></span>, Circumcision would have likely been seen as an appropriate symbol that people would naturally remember any time they considered relations outside of appropriate natural boundaries.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.urolm.org/">Our Lady of Mercy Church - Park Ridge, NJ</a> (Bill Maher’s Sister Kathy Maher and Mother Julie Maher, at the Maher’s childhood Church)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="8">8.</a> Church was b</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">oring</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>, Many churches are boring. Learning and following concepts in the Bible may be hard work, but doing that is not boring.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="9">9.</a> Required bir</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">th control is a good reason to leave Christianity</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#F">F</a></span>, Most Protestant Christians allow birth control. But, following God sometimes requires us to give up that which may look like something good. Birth control enabled the sexual revolution of the 1960s and the disintegration of a large percentage of marriages, causing more abortions and single parent families. So, the Catholic church may have a valid point about the social problems associated with birth control and the related attitudes towards children and marriage.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.truckstopministries.org/Chapels/Charlotte,%20NC.html">Truckers Chapel/Truck Stop Ministries </a>- Raleigh, NC - Reverend Joe Copeland<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnoeric/472571/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkOYFRRFrI/AAAAAAAAAsk/RWFTaBGmeCE/s200/Trucker%27s+Chapel.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262753446453384882" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="10">10.</a> "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin">Original Sin</a>" is not in the Bible</span> - <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:21-22;&amp;version=49;">1 Cor 15:21-22</a>, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12-21;&amp;version=49;">Rom 5:12-21</a>, The concept of "Original Sin" is in the Bible at least in the sense that if Adam had not sinned, his descendants would not have died.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="11">11.</a> The "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception">Immaculate Conception</a>" is not in the Bible</span> - This is a Roman Catholic view that is not held by Protestants.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="12">12.</a> Virgin B</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">irth is only in two of </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">the Gospels</span> - <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:18-25;&amp;version=49;">Matt 1:18-25</a>, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:1-4,26-38;&amp;version=49;">Luke 1:1-4,26-38</a>, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%207:8-8:4;&amp;version=49;">Is 7:8-8:4</a> The verse in Isaiah is referring to Maheer-shalal-hash-baz, but Jesus is also referred to by this verse since a little later in <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%209:2-6;&amp;version=49;">Is 9:2-6</a> it also refers to a future son but that doesn't seem to be fulfilled back in old testament times. Also, note that Mary would likely not go around telling everyone about the virgin birth since most people would not believe her and there would have been no way to prove the virgin birth. Note the verses that imply that Mary and Jesus were keeping some things about Jesus to themselves:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:19;&amp;version=49;">Mat 1:19</a> Joseph initially planned to keep the virgin birth a secret and not marry Mary, but he changed his mind and married her, but he may still have kept the virgin birth a secret<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202:19,51;&amp;version=49;">Luke 2:19, 51</a> Mary treasured and pondered these things in her heart<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%208:3-4;&amp;version=49;">Mat 8:3-4</a> Jesus sometimes wanted people he healed to keep it a secret from being general knowledge<br /><br />The only people it would make sense to tell would be people who already believed he was the messiah. And it is possible that he didn't even tell the disciples. If that is the case then it is possible that some of the Gospel writers only found out about the virgin birth by talking with Mary herself. Luke said he did careful research in compiling his book, so it would make sense that he would talk to Mary and get the whole story.<br /><br />So, it may be that Matthew and Luke interviewed Mary for their books whereas the other two writers did not. Note that the other two writers not only did not mention the virgin birth but did not mention Jesus' birth or childhood at all. That is at least one plausible answer to the question of why two of the gospel writers did not mention the virgin birth.<br /><br />Another possible, related, answer might be if Mark and John were trying to be more evangelistic and did not want to start off their gospels with a miraculous event that was unverifiable.<br /><br />The virgin birth could not have been <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis">parthenogenesis</a> reproduction, like that found in some animals on rare occasions. Since the female only has female chromosomes, Jesus would have to be a female.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="13">13.</a> Popes are not in the Bible</span> - That is a Catholic belief that Protestants do not share.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="14">14.</a> Respons</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">e: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin#Blood_stains">Shroud of Turin</a> had female blood from a male figure</span> - I can't find any references to this and so this is obviously incorrect.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="15">15.</a> Response (Copland): </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">Christianity... it's a faith thing </span>- <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#A">A</a></span>, Yes, but we choose what we believe in based on the probabilities of it being true versus the probability of it being not true. So, we still should be able to articulate in a convincing way why we choose to believe Christianity.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="16">16.</a> Response: Changing from Satanism to Christianity is proof that God exists</span> - Just because someone switches their beliefs to Christianity does not make it true.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="17">17.</a> Drugs and Prostitution are O.K.</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#E">E</a></span>, Individual and social problems are caused by<a href="http://www.helpguide.org/mental/drug_substance_abuse_addiction_signs_effects_treatment.htm"> drug abuse</a> and<a href="http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/prostitution.html"> Prostitution</a>.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="18">18.</a> Response: What if we are right and you are wrong (hedge you</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">r</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> bets) </span>- Chosen beliefs should be determined based on which set of beliefs is more likely to be true given the evidence, regardless of the benefits or drawbacks of accepting those beliefs.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Quote: </span>"<span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Yea, you could be right. I don’t think it is very likely. But y</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">es y</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">ou could be right because my big thing is I don’t know. That is what I preac</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">h. I preach the gospel of “I </span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">don’t know”. That is what I am here promoting, doubt. That is my product</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">. The other guys are selling certainty. Not me. I’m on the corner with doubt.</span>"<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="19">19.</a> Doubt is </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">different than religion </span>- <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#B">B</a></span>, Doubt is a belief system, too, that requires someone to live as if one of the other belief systems were true, and that chosen belief system is usually Atheism.<br /><br />Carnegie Institution Auditorium - Washington, DC - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins_%28geneticist%29">Dr. Francis Collins</a>, Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/joshmt/2455468017/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 160px; height: 200px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkTPZQ7UcI/AAAAAAAAAtE/ZpKIGl-Tel8/s200/Francis+Collins.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262758794759983554" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="20">20.</a> It hasn</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">'t been proven that Jesus existed</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#H">H</a></span>, All we have is historical literary evidence, but we have more literary evidence that Jesus existed than any other ancient person.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="21">21.</a> The B</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ible writers were not eye witnesses</span>, nobody who wrote the gospels ever met Him - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#H">H</a></span>, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201:16&amp;version=49">1 Peter 1:16 </a>- some were eyewitnesses. In <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&amp;chapter=1&amp;version=49">Luke 1:1-4</a> the writer talked to the eyewitnesses and was careful to relay the truth of the eyewitness accounts. So, Bill Maher assumes the Bible is not accurate in what it is saying in order to prove his point that the Bible is not accurate...<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="22">22.</a> The Bible doesn't tell us what Jesus was doing as a young man</span> - I'm not sure why that matters since it would likely be a typical Jewish upbringing.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="23">23.</a> The Gospels are not history</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#H">H</a></span>, The gospels claim to be accurate history.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="24">24.</a> The people who wrote the new testament read the old testament and made the prophecies fit</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#H">H</a></span>, Perhaps, but no evidence is given other than the assumption that prophecies cannot come true. In fact this is an admission that Jesus' life did fulfill prophecies listed in the old testament...<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="25">25.</a> The Bible is fictitious</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#H">H</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="26">26.</a> The Bible texts don't match</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#H">H</a></span>, No discrepancies change the core doctrines, and you would expect some discrepancies from different eyewitnesses.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="27">27.</a> Important items, like the Virgin Birth, are not in all four gospels</span> - The claim of virgin birth is not something that people would broadcast or that could be proven. So, it would seem natural that this would not be a widely known assertion. See my more in depth answer under item <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#12">12</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="28">28.</a> "..being without fait</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">h i</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">s something that’s a luxury for people who are fortunate enough to have a fortunate life" </span>- A fortunate life allows people to not have to think through the hard questions of life, but even fortunate people will unfortunately die one day. So, in that sense no one is fortunate...<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="29">29.</a> How could smart people... believe in the talking snake..</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a>,<a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/-to-religulous-questions.html#L">L</a></span>, Obviously, the snakes of today do not have vocal cords or the mental ability to be able to talk. But we do have other evidence in the Bible that bad angels can inhabit animals, and there may have been ways to communicate without normal speech (but that is just speculation). The point is, that if the Bible is true and God created everything, even something as unlikely as this cannot be ruled out. <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="30">30.</a> How could smart people... believe in... people that live to 900 years old...</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a>,<a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#L">L</a></span>, Why do we live only 80-100 years now? It is not inconceivable that in a different environment with a better genetic makeup that men might live longer, like some animals.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="31">31.</a> How could smart people... believe in... the virgin birth.</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a>,<a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#L">L</a></span>, How can scientists believe the universe created itself out of nothing? How can scientists believe in the twin paradox and the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics? It seems that religion has no corner on believing what seems to be unbelievable. Also, see my analysis of the virgin birth under item <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#12">12</a>.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="32">32.</a> Religion</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> turns into burning people alive</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">, really evil s..t </span>- <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>, So do ideologies of all kinds, not just religion.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="33">33.</a> Televangelists seeking money discredits Christianity (video clips)</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="34">34.</a> What do you think it says about religion and how serious it is </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">if you can be a minister at 10</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>,<br /><br />Ezra Conference Center - Raleigh, NC - Jeremiah Cummings <a href="http://www.streamingfaith.com/directory/network.aspx?nsn=AMLWOODC&amp;bhcp=1">Amazing Life World Outreach</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="35">35.</a> Rock Stars are similar to religious figures, they both dress in elaborate costumes that get people's attention (fine clothes)</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>, The clothes shouldn't matter one way or another, but the message should matter.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="36">36.</a> Response (Cummings): When he was born they brought him gold, Jesus was not poo</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">r - </span><span>There is no indication that Jesus had any significant money.</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="37">37.</a> Resp</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">onse (Cummings): Jesus dressed very well, he wore fine linen</span> - There is no indication that Jesus' clothes were any better than anyone else.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="38">38.</a> Response (Cummings): Jes</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">us does not preach against rich people</span> - He does say that it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. But, then he says that with God it is possible for them to be saved.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="39">39.</a> Response (Cummings): Now things like houses and cars and clothes and money, they come as a result of my seeking God</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> first </span>- Money comes from bringing value to others. The problem with giving money in the Christian context is that the money is given based on the givers requirement to give, not necessarily how much value they are getting from the Church. So, in that case the pastor should be regulated by the church to not abuse the money they receive.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="40">40.</a> (Cummings) Turn your passion to God and see what happens (video of a terrorist blowing a car up)</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="41">41.</a> St. Paul only owned the clothes on his back</span> - There is no indication of that.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="42">42.</a> The Bible doesn't have much morality because Lot (a good person) offered up his daughters to be raped</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> instead of angels</span> -<span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#I">I</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="43">43.</a> God hates fags (video)</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>, No he does not, but he does think that homosexuality is an "abomination". <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2018:22-24;&amp;version=49;">Lev 18:22-24</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="44">44.</a> Response: The Bible isn't against Homosexuality, that is what the Bible means to say</span> - <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2018:22-24;&amp;version=49;">Lev 18:22-24</a>, Lev 20:13, Gen. 19:4 -13, Jude 7, 2 Peter 2:6, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, 1 Tim 1:8-10, Rom. 1:26-28<br /><br /><a href="http://www.exchangeministries.org/">Calvary Assembly Exchange Ministries</a> – Winter Park, FL - Pastor John Westcott<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/danielgreene/350198885/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 90px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkV4X2_j8I/AAAAAAAAAts/inU22kar7rk/s200/ex-gay.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262761697780666306" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="45">45.</a> Man wrote the Bible, Nature made Gay people, The Gay Ge</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ne </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">has been found </span>- <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#N">N</a></span>, See <a href="http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/homotheo.html">Homosexual Theology</a> for a discussion of the evidence for a "Gay Gene". But even if there is a genetic predisposition in some people, that does not make the behavior any less problematic. If people have a predisposition to anger or depression, it does not mean that we should allow them to become violent or depressed without working to end the inappropriate actions.<br /><br />American University biology lab, Washington, DC - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Hamer">Dr. Dean Hamer</a>, author of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/God-Gene-Faith-Hardwired-Genes/dp/0385720319/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1230802496&amp;sr=1-1">The God Gene</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="46">46.</a> All of the prescriptions against homosexuality come from the o</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ld testament.<br />Jesus never </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">said a word about homosexuality. If it is so important, why didn’t he ever bring it up?</span> - He didn't need to since the society which He was in already agreed that this was a condemned practice.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="47">47.</a> But what is your explanation for the millions and millions of people</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> around the world wh</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">o are leading homosexual lives, have no interest in anyone of the oppo</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">site</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> sex…</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#N">N</a></span>, Actually, there is indication that most homosexuals have at least some interest in bisexuality.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="48">48.</a> Gay people are secure in themselves</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#N">N</a></span>, Sometimes people act secure when inside they are not.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="49">49.</a> Gay people are happy</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">, they are called Gay, some of them look positively thrilled -</span> <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#N">N</a></span>, Sometimes people act secure when inside they are not.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="50">50.</a> Christians should not judge Gay people by saying they are "peo</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ple who are really incom</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">plet</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">e in who they are as men or women"</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#G">G</a></span>, The Bible isn't against judging. It is just against judging incorrectly.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="51">51.</a> You can tell people are Gay because they look Gay (good looking, neat, Little Richard) -</span> <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#N">N</a></span>, Looks and actions may also make someone think they are gay, so the looks may be a contributing factor to the action, rather than an indication of a genetic predisposition.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="52">52.</a> When he was 17 and was dumped and sad, he was very vulnerable - thought a force was o</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ut there that was communicating through song lyrics or numerolo</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">gy</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">, You make up an imaginary friend who loves you and who is sympathetic with you and has a plan for you. He didn't have to love me, he just had to be working for me, like an agent - </span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>,<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pddm.us/LiturgicalCenter.htm">Liturgical Apostolate Center</a> - Boston, MA - Steve Burg, Ex-Jew for Jesus<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="53">53.</a> Highly unlikely coincidences after prayer are not evidence for</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> God</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#C">C</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="54">54.</a> Believing San</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ta Claus flying around the world in one night is ridiculous, but </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">one man hearing everybody murmuring to him at the same time, th</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">at I get.</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="55">55.</a> If Heaven </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">is a better place, why don't you kill yourself</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#P">P</a></span>, Our place is on earth, either this earth or the new earth talked about in Revelations. A common misconception is that our final destination as Christians is Heaven, when actually that is a temporary location and our final location is on the new earth. So, we are made to stay in this world, and killing ourselves would be sending us prematurely to the holding place just to return to the new earth.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="56">56.</a> Jonah could not have lived inside a big fish for three days</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a></span>, Whales and big fish have swallowed animals whole as large as people, so even without miraculous intervention <a href="http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t004.html">the story of Jonah is physically possible.</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="57">57.</a> Response (Berg): if you don't believe in miracles, that doesn't mean they do not exist</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a></span>,<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="58">58.</a> Two things that are completely incompatible are Christianity as Jesus taught it </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">and Nationalism</span> -<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="59">59.</a> Response (John McCain): The constitution established the</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> United States of America as a Chr</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">istian nation </span>-<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tonythemisfit/2812130342/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 133px; height: 200px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkomQ8HfrI/AAAAAAAAAuc/5-RvadpuHFE/s200/Thomas+Jefferson.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262782277406391986" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="60">60.</a> A lot of book</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">s for the founding fathers that explicitly say that we a</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">re not a Christian nation</span> -<br /><br />Jefferson Memorial – Washington, DC - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Suarez">Ray Suarez</a> author of The Holy Vote: The Politics of Faith in America<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="61">61.</a> Jefferson took out all of Jesus' Miracles and all the verses that talk abo</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ut Jesus' divinity -<br /><br /><a name="62">62.</a> In Jefferson's age fewer people went to church less often </span>-<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="63">63.</a> 16% of Americans are unaffiliated with any religion</span> from a <a href="http://religions.pewforum.org/affiliations">pew poll</a> -<br /><br />Senate Office Building - Washington, DC - <a href="http://pryor.senate.gov/">Senator Mark Pryor</a> Democrat from Arkansas<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="64">64.</a> Response (Senator): Why is faith good? Faith has a way of softening people, for example Jesus is very forgiving </span>-<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="65">65.</a> Jesus also said: If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers and is gathered and thrown in the fire and burned.</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="66">66.</a> Response (Senator): We’ll let God sort out all the details at judgment da</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">y</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="67">67.</a> Are the ten commandments really the ten most moral teachings? That is not really a wise list of ten.</span> - Actually when you understand the purpose of the 10 commandments and the purpose of the three groupings of commandments within the 10, then they make sense as a universal framework from which to interpret all other laws.<br /><br />Commandments 1-3 and 5 concern respecting authorities. In the theocracy of Israel, the two authorities were God (and His representatives) and Parents. If Israel followed other gods (in that society they would have made idols for the other god), or said they followed the one true God but did not follow his commandments (taking on His name in vain), then they would lose the foundational reason why they decided to follow the Mosaic laws in the first place.<br /><br />The 4th commandment, keeping the Sabbath day holy, insures that people have time to think and reflect on creation and how to maintain a "very good" world. If people are tired out from working all the time, they never will have the time or energy to learn about laws or to think about self discipline and the larger goals of life.<br /><br />Commandments 6-8 concern maintaining boundaries between people. People have a right not be be murdered, to have a life long monogamous partner of the opposite sex, and a right to keep the property they make or trade for. These are the foundations of Criminal and Civil law.<br /><br />The 9th commandment, "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor", is the foundation of law enforcement since reliance on witnesses is a pre-requisite for valid judgments concerning law enforcement.<br /><br />The 10th commandment, "Do not covet...", is the last commandment for a good reason: it is the only one of the ten commandments that talks about attitude rather than just actions. Attitudes are the source of action, so the main focus of these laws is not the laws themselves, but to get the right attitudes that cause people to understand the reason for these laws in the first place and the desire to follow them.<br /><br />The more summarized form of the ten commandments <span class="f" style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);font-size:85%;" ><i>is: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two </i></span>commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40). That reflects the two major themes of the 10 commandments: to giv<span style="font-size:100%;">e authority and others their rightful place in creation.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="68">68.</a> First four are all about just worshiping God and that he is a jealous God. </span>- Worship is giving value and honor where honor is due. In a sense, we worship whatever we assign value to, but what we call "worship of God" is to give Him ultimate value and honor. As for God being "jealous", the head of any government is "jealous" of other governments taking over the leadership of their people.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="69">69.</a> Only two that are really laws are don’t steal and don’t kill. </span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> Why is th</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">is the wisest group of ten, it doesn't include Child Abuse, don’t torture, rape? It doesn't include a l</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ot of things that I think if we were making a list today we would include</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">.</span> - The ten commandments are a framework that does in fact include, in concept, the laws that are listed as missing. Rape involves committing adultery. Murder is the extreme case of abuse and so is easy to list in a summary. Child abuse and torture need to be defined, otherwise people could claim abuse when any force is used, so those are not appropriate for a summary framework of laws.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="70">70.</a> Response (Senator): Society is so different today and our culture is so radically different - </span>As a framework for all the following Mosaic laws, the 10 commandments are a very good summary, encapsulating all the key concepts of the legal system itself. And, if you understand that they were written for a theocracy and you translate the concepts to a democracy, then the 10 commandments are still the best summary of a legal system around.<br /><br />Note that you can summarize down to fewer commandments, or you can expand the summary to more line items, or even to hundreds or thousands of laws and each would be valid. The question is how much of a summary of the legal system you want to have. The legal system could be summarized in one commandment: "do what is right", but of course to have meaning that needs to be expanded, which is why our legal system is so complex.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="71">71.</a> Can you think of anything else we still cling to from the bronze age.</span> - yes, we still farm, eat, have transportation, communicate, write, etc... And, yes, we still have a legal system similar in concept to what Israel had.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="72">72.</a> Murder is against the law in every country in the world </span>- Yes, so is honoring the government and other authorities, and respecting the rights and property of others, just as summarized in the 10 commandments.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="73">73.</a> Wouldn't we have come to that even without religion</span> - Yes. A true "Religion" is only listing what is actually true and "natural", it is just that the things we do not understand we give the label "supernatural". If we understood those things we would label them as "natural".<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="74">74.</a> There has been more killing in the name of our god - <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a>, </span><span>Killing only occurs when people can't control others to get what they want in other ways. Cain killed Abel because he wanted God to be happy with him the same as with Abel, but, irrationally, he thought killing was the best way to get that. The Bible shows that people should be given free choice, since God gave Adam and Eve free choice. People kill in the name of their god because they want others to follow their god and they can't think of any other way to get that to ha</span>ppen. But that same thing also happens with people wanting others to follow their philosophy, like Fascism and Com<span>munism.<br /><br />It is interesting that the Bible does not say to kill others that do not believe in the God of Israel. The killing in the Bible seems to be to clear out the land from the influence of other governments, to respect the rule of law and to protect the innocent from how law breakers would change their society.<br /></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="75">75.</a> Response (Senator): </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">More primitive cultures were constantly at war.<br /></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="76">76.</a> The modern nations are constantly at war too (video) - </span><span>He mixes u</span>p national wa<span>r and </span><span>individual murder.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="77">77.</a> Response (Senator): Waffles on creation/evolution.</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a></span>, <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="78">78.</a> It worries me that people are running my country who believe in a talking snake. - <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a>,<br /></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="79">79.</a> Response (Senator): You don’t have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate.</span> -<br /><br /><a href="http://www.creationmuseum.org/">Creation Museum</a>, Petersburg, KY - Ken Ham, Answers in Genesis<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/rauchdickson/650736573/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkbjeLOApI/AAAAAAAAAt0/dDXxw4IdmM4/s200/creatin+museum.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262767935768625810" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="80">80.</a> Response (Ken Ham): </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">In a nutshell we are saying the Bible is true, from Genesis </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">to Revelations. </span>- <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a>, <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#H">H</a> </span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="81">81.</a> Response (Ken Ham): If you believe in evolution t</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">he woman had to come from an ape woman.</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="82">82.</a> Response (Ken Ham): Dinosaurs lived with humans.</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="83">83.</a> Response (Kirk Cameron): To be able to reason with people, learn to circumnavigate or go around the pers</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">on’s intellect </span>- Go to 19:50 and watch to 23:30 into the video to see this clip in context<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span><br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><embed flashvars="initialTime=1190" id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=5216599592008162462&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=true" style="width: 400px; height: 326px;" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed></div><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="84">84.</a> It would have to be an enormous conspiracy going on between scientists of all different disciplines in all di</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">fferent countries to have such a consensus (for evolution).</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="85">85.</a> Response (Ken Ham): Man is a sinner. Man is in rebellion against his creator. All these scientists are sinners.</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="86">86.</a> Response (Father Coyne): John Paul said <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm">Evolution is no longer a mere hy</a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm">pothesis</a></span>, <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/">Cur</a><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/">rent Popes Statement on Evolution</a> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="87">87.</a> Response (Ken Ham): Why is man coexisting with Dinosaurs important to your salvation or your morality. If we don't believe one part of the Bible, why should we believe the rest of the Bible - </span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#S">S</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="88">88.</a> Response (Father Coyne): Modern science came to be later than when the Bible was written so there can not be any science in scripture. </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">The scriptures are not teaching science. -</span> <span style="font-weight: bold;">E</span>, Just because the scientific method was delineated later, does not negate the fact that, if it is a true account given from God himself, the Bible should be accurate in it's natural history (science). That would still be the case even if the text was "dumbed down" to be able to discuss the subject with people who didn't know about the scientific method.<br /><br />St. Raphael’s Parish Center, Raleigh, NC - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Coyne">Father George V. Coyne</a> Director Emeritus Vatican Observatory<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="89">89.</a> Response (Father Coyne): It is very hard for me to accept not just a literal interpretation of scripture but a fundamentalist approach to religious belief. Fundamentalist belief is kind of a plague. It presents itself as science but it is not - </span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#S">S</a></span>, If the Bible isn't accurate about natural history, why should we believe it when it talks about other topics. And if the genesis story was not meant to be taken as history, what other parts of the Bible should not be taken literally either? Jesus thought Adam and Eve were literal people.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="90">90.</a> God is working in ways we sometimes do not understand. Isn't that a cop out? He is God. Are you God? - <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#L">L</a>, </span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="91">91.</a> Got thrown</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> out of the Vatican - tactic of not notifying befo</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">re showing up</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="92">92.</a> Flying nun reference - mixing of fiction and nonfiction</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="93">93.</a> Does that look like anything, like anything Jesus Christ had in m</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ind – the Vatican. Response: If I were the boss I wouldn’t be living there. </span>-<br /><br /><a href="http://www.vatican.va/">Vatican </a>(<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Reginald_Foster">Father Reginald Foster</a>, Senior Vatican Scholar and Principal Latinist for the Pope)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">94. Response (Foster): Roasting in Hell. That is all gone. That's all finished.</span> - That is an interesting new change in Catholic doctrine...<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="95"></a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">95. Response (Foster): Jesus wasn’t born on Christmas. These are all nice stories you know. </span>- Agreed, the date was chosen to overlap an existing pagan festival. But that doesn't have any bearing on whether Jesus actually existed or not.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="96">96.</a> Response (Foster): </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">Jesus was sixth on the list who people pray to in Italy. Looks like it isn’t monotheistic. Talk about cafeteria Catholics. </span>- <span style="font-weight: bold;">O</span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="97">97.</a> Response (Foster): You can’t convince people. Let people die with their stupid ideas.</span> - If I had that idea, I wouldn't be writing this blog... The Bible seems to indicate that we should put forward what we believe to be true to people, then if they decide to believe otherwise, that is their prerogative.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="98">98.</a> Analogy: A space man zaps a virgin who has a son who is also him w</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ho goes on a suicide mission </span>- The flaw in this analogy is that the "space man" actually created the earth and the virgin. And there is no such thing as a suicide mission since everyone gets raised again after they die, for judgment.<br /><br />A better analogy might be a rich king creates a stadium and has his people try out to see who are worthy citizens to live with him in his royal city. His standards are extremely high, so it turns out that none of his people are making the grade. So he sends his son to sneak into the stadium and show the people how to do it. His standards are so high that the his son actually dies doing what is right, and the people who want to make the grade also have to be willing to die. But the king can bring people back to life, so actually no one comes to an end because of these tests (but he lets them think they will come to an end to see who will be willing to die).<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="99"></a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">99. If when you were a kid they transposed the Bible stories with fairy tales you would know the difference as an adult? If they told you Jack and the Bean Stalk was religion and that a man lived in a whale was a fairy tale quote. Would you be defending the one and not the other? </span>- The difference here is whether the story is true or not and that is what he is trying to establish, so this argument assumes the result it is trying to prove<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="100">100.</a> Eve being made out of a rib.</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="101">101.</a> Jesus is just alright with<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span> me - music -</span> It is a little dangerous to have someone dress up like Jesus because people might assume they are saying what Jesus would say. The real Jesus would probably have had better answers...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.holylandexperience.com/">Holy Land Experience </a>- Orlando, FL - Employee Acting as Jesus<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiefangzhouyi/324535793/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQeuNW1b4hI/AAAAAAAAAsU/hG5-8qGy9IA/s200/Holy+Land+Experience+Tomb.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262366234096951826" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="102">102.</a> Why doesn’t he just obliterate the devil and therefore get rid of evil in the world? Response (Jesus Actor): He will. </span>- <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#P">P</a></span>,<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="103">103.</a> What is he waiting for? Response (Jesus Actor): A day </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">is like a </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">thousand ye</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ars for God. He is so far beyond any of our ways.</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#P">P</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="104">104.</a> What was the holocaust, why was that good? Response (Jesus Actor): God has a plan for that. It is like explaining to an ant how a</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> TV works.</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#P">P</a></span>, We will all die, it is just a matter of how.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="105">105.</a> Wicked witch sounds</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> when public relations coordinator comes -</span> It is polite to let people know when you will be shooting a video on their property, but of course they were probably afraid that they would not be let in since the video is somewhat adversarial to Christian beliefs.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="106">106.</a> No other gods before me, that's not moral, it is just </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">something a jealous God would do.</span> <span style="font-weight: bold;">That seems so un-godlike. I know people who have gotten over jealou</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">sy<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span>.</span> - That is moral. Think of it like when one government says if you want to keep being a citizen, it will not allow you to work for a competing government within it's borders. The term jealous has a broader meaning than being implied here.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="107">107.</a> (Jesus Actor) It's two sides of a coin. He is a just God and He's also a merciful God. There are books of the Bible about God wiping out people. His ways are higher than ours - </span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="108">108.</a> (Jesus Actor) God put this God sized hole in your life, you can fill it with d</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">rugs, sex, anything you want, it is not going to fill it.. Can I try? You can try if you want, but you will end up hurting yourself and damaging yourself and burning yourself out.<br /><br /><a name="109">109.</a> I thought Christ was about not judging people, isn't that a judgment there? You don't even know me but you are saying I have a hole in my heart. Response: No, I'm saying anyone in general</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#G">G</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="110">110.</a> If I was God I would create people without the hole to begin with</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">.</span> - That is like saying if I were an automaker I would make a car that gets a million miles to the gallon and you never need to change the oil and that it could fly to work as well. The hole is there by design and it is a little presumptuous to think that, if there is a Creator, we can recommend a better design. And as a corollary: thinking we could make a better design is not good evidence that there is no Creator. If you can actually make a better design rather than thinking you could, that might be better evidence that no Creator actually exists...<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="111">111.</a> (Jesus Actor) Have you ever had a little small voice in the back of your mind say some things. That's not God, that is you - </span><span>Agreed, if there is</span> no objective way, at least to that individual, to determine whether it is God speaking to you or whether it is just yourself, we have to make inference to the most likely cause which is just our own thinking.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="112">112.</a> (Jesus Actor) Holy spirit is like the wind </span>- Agreed, but that is not evidence that God exists.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="113">113.</a> It’s a monotheistic religion, but there is three of them. Space God and sends himself on a suicide missions, he's God, he has a kid, he’s a single p</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">arent, it’s just silly. </span>- See the answer and better analogy on item 98.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="114"></a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">114. Your bio was something that was going around the Mediterranean for at least a 1000 years before Christ </span>-<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="115">115.</a> 1000 BC Krishna: carpenter, born of a virgin, baptized in a river</span> - There are no credible <a href="http://www.blackapologetics.com/harejesus.html">links between Krisha and Jesus</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="116">116.</a> 600 BC Persian God Mithra: Born December 25th, performed </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">miracles, resurrected on</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> the 3rd day, the lamb, the way, the truth, the light, t</span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/joule/6759894/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQki4jJr0WI/AAAAAAAAAuU/qKTMV1Z6KHE/s200/Horus.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262775994463015266" border="0" /></a><span style="font-weight: bold;">he savior, messiah</span> - <a href="http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm">Doesn't the religion of Mithra prove that Christianity is false?</a> - The short answer is no. Many of the concepts associated with Mithra were post-Christian, and they were all post-Judaism. Since the concepts ascribed to Jesus can be directly derived from the old testament, there are no grounds to say these concepts were derived from Mithra worship, and in fact the opposite could be the case.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="117">117.</a> Response (Jesus Actor): I don't go by that, I go by the word of God</span> - Good, but not good enough... We need to be able to give an answer for why we believe the Bible is true, which includes external proofs as well as internal proofs that the Bible is accurate and true.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="118">118.</a> Many of the gods were born on December 25th (So the story of Jesus was copying others)</span> - <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html">Why December 25th?</a> - Because the Christian church wanted to overlap a day that the pagans already used to worship another god, to make it easy for them to switch to Christianity. So, there is a good reason why the birth of Mithra and Jesus are celebrated on the same day. They were hoping that the celebration of Jesus' birth would replace the celebration of Mithra.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="119"></a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">119. Horus: Egyptian God similarities list on screen - Son of Osiris, virgin mother, Aup the Baptizer, beheaded, temped in the desert, crown of thorns, walked on water, Asus means Lazarus, crucified and raised</span> - <a href="http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html">Aren’t there some striking parallels between the Jesus and Horus stories?</a> In short, the answer is,"no." Bill Maher's team should have done some more homework here...<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="120">120.</a> (Jesus Actor) What if you are wrong and this isn't all made up?</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="121">121.</a> Believing in Jesus with the virgin birth and the dove and the snak</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">e that talks in the garden is like believing in Scientology</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="122">122.</a> Religions have to get crazier to keep up</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#K">K</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="123">123.</a> Religion is a neurological disorder. There are some very specific changes in the brain when p</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">eople are meditating or praying or even speaking in tongues </span>- First. in <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2014;&amp;version=49;">1 Cor 14</a> Paul is arguing that people should seek to do better things rather than to try to speak in tongues. If the foreign tongues were actually understandable that would be profitable but, since that is not the case here, Christians should desire to do better things with their time and energy. Also, the practice of "centering prayer" is not really prayer at all but a controversial practice (in protestant Christianity) of clearing the mind, similar to what Buddhists do in their meditations. So, none of these practices studied are recommended by most protestant Christians (though the practice of centering prayer is growing).<br /><br />Protestant Christians have historically recommended rational practices such as prayer and Bible study (assuming God exists and the Bible is accurate) rather than irrational practices such as clearing the mind and practicing rituals to improve our standing with God.<br /><br />Secondly, Dr. Newberg only says that these practices show neurologically different patterns. He never says that belief is a neurological disorder. Also, other activities may have different neurological patterns associated with them as well. So, this is the worst kind of slander and should be strongly rejected. Once a point of view is defined as a disorder, then it becomes acceptable to force that viewpoint out of the marketplace of ideas and to even have social or legal pressure applied to "fix" the disorder. The Jews and others had to first be reduced to some sort of "problem" that needed to be fixed before the holocaust could take place. Lets not go down that road again...<br /><br />Grand Central Station - New York, NY (<a href="http://www.andrewnewberg.com/">Dr. Andrew Newberg</a>, MD, author, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Why-Believe-What-Uncovering-Spirituality/dp/0743274970/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1230780023&amp;sr=8-1">Why We Believe What We Believe</a>) co- founder of the <a href="http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/radiology/csm/">Center for Spirituality and the Mind</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="124">124.</a> (Karta) You must be </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">on a certain level of holiness to deserve the land of Israel </span>- (Protestant Christians generally do not agree)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nkusa.org/">Neturei Karta</a> - Monsey, NY - Rabbi Yisroel Weiss, Anti-Zionist<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="125">125.</a> God rested on the 7th day so man has to - </span><span>the Christian belief is that the sabbath day is a benefit for man, not an imposed ritual. It is like arguing for a 40 hour work week instead of a 60 hour work week so that there is time for study, fellowship and getting refreshed.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="126">126.</a> Keep the sabbath day holy: can’t use electricity, you can't drive – 39 types of specific actions that cannot be done on the Sabbath: start a fire, pl</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">anting, plowing, tying a knot, untying a knot, building, destroying so as to bu</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ild</span> - (Protestant Christians generally do not agree.)<br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:23-28;&amp;version=49;">Mat 23:23-28</a> Says it is good that they want to follow the law in minute details, but in many cases they miss the main, internal points of the law in order to focus on these minor external points of the law. The fact is that no Jewish person can keep the whole law in every detail all their lives, which is why the temple sacrifices were required and, eventually, Jesus' "once and for all" sacrifice.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.scienceandhalacha.org/">Institute for Science and Halacha</a> (Rabbi Shmuel Strauss; Rabbi Levi Halperin, Director of the Institute)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="127">127.</a> (Strauss) If there is a loophole, it is because it is to be used in a situation of need</span> - Not necessarily. A loophole may not have been intended, but rather showed up because of an overly rigid interpretation of what was intended by the original writer.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="128">128.</a> Why am I going to these lengths to please God who has taken away my legs to begin with?</span> -<span style="font-weight: bold;"> <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#P">P</a></span>, God has greater goals in mind which require this short term pain and suffering. Just because God thinks there is a greater good to allowing this suffering does not mean that he likes the individual suffering.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="129">129.</a> How do we define crazy? If we define mental illness as an</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">yone w</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ho hears a voice talking to them, then anyone who has heard the voice of God is crazy. </span>- There has to be some objective way to verify, at least to the individual, that any "voices" in their head are accurate and from God.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="130">130.</a> Mother who killed her children after hearing the voice o</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">f God </span>- She was not objectively verifying whether the voice in her head was good or not. A Christian would normally reject voices if they told them to do things that were against what was taught in the Bible.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="131">131.</a> Abraham kil</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ling his son</span> - Abraham would have been doing evil if there were not some way to objectively verify that the voice was coming from God and that God was trustworthy. The Bible does not specifically say how Abraham knew the voice was from God, but there must have been some way to objectively verify that.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="132">132.</a> Jesus was nuts (for talking to God). Moses talked to a burning</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> bush. That guy is a cuckoo.</span> - That assumes that God wasn't actually talking to them, so these statements are assuming what they are trying to prove.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="133">133.</a> (Miranda) Jesus had children descendants to Puerto Rico. No hell, devil or sin. How do you get this Job? Two tall and strong angels.</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/Answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:23-25;&amp;version=49;">Mat 24:23-25</a> The Bible says there will be false Christs.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.cegenglish.com/">Growing in Grace Ministry</a> - Miami, FL (Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda)<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomfactor/24578783/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 173px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkP9ymDMEI/AAAAAAAAAss/SWYEsd9zquo/s200/666.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262755193786937410" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="134">134.</a> Why did God choose you? He is the descendant of Jesus. Jesus had a wife and has descendants. I thought the second coming was the reincarnation of the Christ himself - <a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a>,<br /><br /></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="135">135.</a> It seems that if God wanted to communicate something to the </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">world, He’s all powerful, He would just talk to the whole world. It always seems that He picks out a prophet in private and tells them, "O.K., you’re the prophet." And you go tell the rest of the world, so we just sort of have to take it on faith, we j</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ust sort of have to believe you.</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#C">C</a></span>, If God just told the whole world many people would follow him because of His power and not because they actually want to do what is right. Part of the test of this life is following God without seeing His full power.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="136">136.</a> (Miranda) If I discovered that I was Satan in person I would do a g</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ood jo</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">b too, because I would be faithful to my calling</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="137">137.</a> I wasn'</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">t born skeptical. I was still making deals with God when</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> I was 40. I said if you make this problem go away I will quit smoking, and I won't go back on it because I would be going back on a deal with God. I’m kind of glad I had God in my life.<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"></span> </span>- If God doesn't exist, then that was silly even if the results were good. So, the main question is still whether God exists or not.<br /><br />Sensi Coffee Shop / Seed Shop (<a href="http://www.ulc.net/index.php?id=8467&amp;page=minister_data">Ferre van Beveren</a>, <a href="http://www.thc-ministry.net/">Cannabis Ministry</a>)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="138">138.</a> Maybe the Dutch are so tolerant that they are now tolerating intolerance. It is all religious fundamentalists. -</span> Note that by using the term "religious fundamentalists" it also implicates Christians and Jews who have not demonstrated the same level of religious violence in this generation as a portion of the Muslims have.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="139">139.</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8rNCi7Nlig">Theo Van Gogh</a> assassinated. His film was deeply offensive to Muslims. </span><span>- If God exists, He has also given us the freedom to choose whether to follow him or not.</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br /><a name="140">140.</a> (Rapper) Anyone worrying about what I am saying should get involved in the debate. You are allowed to dissent, that is a right.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-style: italic;">Quote: But is that a right in Islam, to dissent? Was that a right for Salmon Rushdie (and his novel </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><a href="http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&amp;id=SPFPCBtIJpMC&amp;dq=satanic+verses&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=web&amp;ots=g7DGt_KXrx&amp;sig=wxNoeWWdWsSd7N1UizNUbWHt7B8&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;resnum=3&amp;ct=result">Satanic verses)</a>? Salmon Rushdie was there to provoke, insult, and he did it intentionally. But, should he die for that? It's easy for you to say things kind of in black and white. It's more complex than that. There is emotions and passions and philosophy involved. All you have got </span><span style="font-style: italic;">to say is that it is wrong for someone to have to suffer a death threat for writi</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ng a book. But, apparently, it is more complicated than that. But, you want that protection for yourself. </span><span style="font-style: italic;">I'm willing to discuss them in terms of facts and not fictions. When you disagree wi</span><span style="font-style: italic;">th me it is a fiction. You have the truth and I have the fiction. </span><span style="font-style: italic;">You don't see a f</span><span style="font-style: italic;">undamental hypocrisy for you asking for the right to dissent and somebody else getting a death threat. No, because my dissent is to stop the madness. (his song talking about terrorism being O.K.)</span><br /><br />London subway/tube station (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aki_Nawaz">Aki Nawaz</a>, a/k/a Propa-Gandhi, Rapper)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="141"></a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">141. Dutch parliament member wants</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">, Geert Wilders, </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">to outlaw Islam in Holland. Islam is a violent religion, the Koran is a violent book and Mohamed was a violent prophet. Do you think Islam wants to take over the world? They don't even make a secret about it.</span> - Protestant Christians would like the whole world to be Christian, too. But, most think the Bible says that will not happen. And, in fact the world will reject true Christianity. But, in any case, the Bible doesn't say anything about taking over the world using force like the Quran does.<br /><br />Recently <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481665,00.html">Geert Wilders was charged with "insulting Islam"</a> in Holland, and if convicted may spend two years in jail for creating a movie called "Fitna". See it on Youtube in two parts, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kcev1K-NOc">part 1</a> and <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdLMFs4fv4E">part 2</a>.<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonathansull/68997406/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 124px; height: 200px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkRB9V_S7I/AAAAAAAAAs0/VMSyWQPFWXQ/s200/Aids+Ribbon.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262756364903467954" border="0" /></a><br />The Hague/Parliament (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders">Geert Wilders</a>, Dutch Parliament Member)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="142">142.</a> Gay Muslim bar</span> - <span onmouseover="_tipon(this)" onmouseout="_tipoff()">Turkmani has an HIV infe</span><span onmouseover="_tipon(this)" onmouseout="_tipoff()">ction and suffers from severe mental problems, which three times per month has to be treated by several physicians.</span><span style="font-weight: bold;" onmouseover="_tipon(this)" onmouseout="_tipoff()"><br /></span><br /><a href="http://www.gaygetter.com/venue/habibiana">Habibi Ana</a> (Muslim Gay Bar/<a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coc.nl%2Fdopage.pl%3Fthema%3Dany%26pagina%3Dviewartikel%26artikel_id%3D1884&amp;hl=en&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sl=nl&amp;tl=en">Jimmy Turkmani</a>) <span style="font-weight: bold;" onmouseover="_tipon(this)" onmouseout="_tipoff()"><br /></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br /><a name="143">143.</a> Is Islam a threat to Dutch values? No, Islam is preaching above all, peace and peace and peace. (Clips of Muslims preaching violence). - See, <a href="http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/">Obsession, the Movie</a><br /><br />Part 1 of 2:<br /><div style="text-align: center;"><embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=8662467646661149069&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=true" style="width: 400px; height: 326px;" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed></div><br /><br />Part 2 of 2:<br /><div style="text-align: center;"><embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=2379593167878434106&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=true" style="width: 400px; height: 326px;" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed></div><br /><br /><a name="144">144.</a> And yet it is involved with a lot of war and violence. Yea, it is just all politics. Nothing to do with religion. </span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="145"></a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">145. There seems to be a lot of passages that say the infidel is not the equal of the believer, the infidel will die in hell, don't feel bad about hating the infidel. No? Boy I've got a lot of bad information. </span>-<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="146">146.</a> What did you think when you read those passages? I explain those passages within the time they emerged. - </span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br /><a name="147">147.</a> I think they are just in a state of denial to an outsider. Islam conquered most of the known world in one century</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span><a href="http://www.noblesanctuary.com/">Al-Aqsa Mosque</a>, <a href="http://www.templemount.org/">Temple Mount</a>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock">Dome of the Rock</a> (Dr. Muhammad Houra<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/salamanderr/2461439745/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkNq3kXRUI/AAAAAAAAAsc/EhYl1Rh2DcM/s200/Dome+of+the+Rock.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262752669681272130" border="0" /></a>ni, PhD, Coordinator, Center for Peace and Reconciliation)<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="148">148.</a> The Kaba, this s</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">tone came from paradise. It is black and there are no </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">other black stones around. Does it make any difference that we now </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">understand what a meteor is? </span>-<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="149">149.</a> Women in your culture seem not to be as equal to the man as they are in our culture. The women have a special corner</span> -<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="150"></a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">150. Mohammad never went to temple mount, that is a historical fact. Muslims have to accept every word in this story. </span>- (Agreed by Protestant Christians)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="151">151.</a> Why can’t the people of the different faiths get along. Is it not because it has been conquered ma</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ny times?</span> - <span style="font-weight: bold;"><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.html#O">O</a></span>,<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="152">152.</a> Giant naked man on the side of a hill, is there a religion that maintains it? Believing in mysticism is similar to kneeling and fasting</span> -<br /><br /><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;time=&amp;date=&amp;ttype=&amp;q=cerne+abbas+giant&amp;sll=37.0625,-95.677068&amp;sspn=103.719597,106.875&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;ll=50.813668,-2.474796&amp;spn=0.001391,0.004227&amp;t=k&amp;z=19&amp;om=1">Cerne Abbas</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerne_Abbas_giant">Giant of Cerne</a>) – Dorset, England<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="153">153.</a> Because of the power of religion to divert man to destructive courses, the world actually could come to an end.</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-style: italic;">Verses quoted on screen:</span><br />Rev 1:3, 16:16 The time is near and the place is called Armageddon<br /><a href="http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&amp;-Table=tblMasterTranslit&amp;-Response=Sreply1.asp&amp;-Error=SReply1.asp&amp;-MaxRecords=25&amp;-token=English%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&amp;-op=qrange&amp;CV=3:151&amp;-sortorder=Ascend&amp;-sortfield=cv&amp;-Search">Surah 3:151</a> Soon we will cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers<br /><a href="http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&amp;-Table=tblMasterTranslit&amp;-Response=Sreply1.asp&amp;-Error=SReply1.asp&amp;-MaxRecords=25&amp;-token=English%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&amp;-op=qrange&amp;CV=55:26&amp;-sortorder=Ascend&amp;-sortfield=cv&amp;-Search">Surah 55.26 </a> All that is on earth will perish<br />Rev 6:12 There was a great earthquake... The sun turned black... the whole moon turned blood red and the stars in the sky fell to earth<br />Rev 9:6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it;they will long to die but death will elude them<br /><a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/041.smt.html#041.6903">Hadith Sahih Muslim 41:6903</a> The last hour will not come unless there is much bloodshed<br />Rev 22:21 The grace of the lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.<br /><a href="http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&amp;-Table=tblMasterTranslit&amp;-Response=Sreply1.asp&amp;-Error=SReply1.asp&amp;-MaxRecords=25&amp;-token=English%7C%7C%3Cta%3Etrue%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Etrue%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Etrue%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Etrue%3C/al%3E&amp;-op=qrange&amp;CV=1:2-1:4&amp;-sortorder=Ascend&amp;-sortfield=cv&amp;-Search">Surah Al-Fatihah 1:2-4</a> Praise be to Allah... master of the day of judgment<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="154">154.</a> If you believe the world is going to come to an end, perhaps any day now, does it not drain ones motivation to improve life on earth while we are here?</span> -<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Final Monologue:</span></span><br />"Plain fact is religion must die for mankind to live. The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge in having key decisions made by religious people, by irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state, not by a compass, but, by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken. George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq, but he didn’t learn a lot about it.<br />Faith means making a virtue out of non-thinking. It’s nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are intellectual slaveholders keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction.<br />Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don’t have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it’s wonderful if someone says, "I’m willing Lord. I’ll do whatever You want me to do." Except, that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions, and limitations and agendas.<br />And, anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die. I promise you you they don’t. How can I be so sure? Because I don’t know and you do not possess mental powers that I do not.<br />The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble. And that’s what man needs to be considering that human history is just a litany of getting sh.t dead wrong.<br />This is why rational people, anti-religionists must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves. And, those that consider themselves only moderately religious, really need to look in the mirror and realize the solace and comfort that religion brings you actually comes at a terrible price.<br />If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence and shear ignorance as religion is, you’d resign in protest..<br />To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife with the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy of their billions of their fellow travelers.<br />If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or, it lives into the future decimated by the effects of a religion inspired nuclear terrorism, let’s remember what the real problem was. That we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it.<br /><br />That’s it. Grow up or die."<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Issues from quote:</span></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="155">155.</a> Religion must die for mankind to live</span> - Nazism and Communism had even greater potential to end life as we know it on the planet, and those are not religions. So, what we would need to say is "Any significant ideologies must die for mankind to live". But, Ironically, to do that would take a strong world government that severely managed the education and thinking of the world's population. Interestingly, that is in opposition to Mr. Maher's political beliefs.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="156">156.</a> People who believe religion should not be political leaders</span> -<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkgWkzlNhI/AAAAAAAAAt8/m5MB2n2KTvA/s1600-h/Church+Question+Mark.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 160px; height: 200px;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkgWkzlNhI/AAAAAAAAAt8/m5MB2n2KTvA/s200/Church+Question+Mark.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262773211768370706" border="0" /></a> The last monologue assumes that religion is the same as irrationality. Everyone would agree that political leaders need to be rational, but he has not made his case that all religious people are also irrational.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="157">157.</a> Faith makes a virtue of non-thinking</span> - Actually, that is not true. All reason starts with assumptions. The difference with religious faith is that it starts with seemingly unverifiable assumptions that could only be revealed in the past through books or other means. Both science and religion have their foundational beliefs that are unverifiable.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="158">158.</a> Faith keeps mankind in bondage to fantasy and nonsense</span> - Yes, for the faiths that are not true, that is the case. But, if any of the faiths are true, then they actually free people rather than put them in bondage.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="159">159.</a> Fai</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">th has spawned much lunacy and destruction</span> - Agreed. Faith and reason are powerful tools. If they are used to find truth, then they are a great benefit. If they are used to support falsehoods, then they can cause great destruction.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="160">160.</a> Bad people lead the willing faithful to do bad things</span> - But, normally, the leaders of the faithful think they are doing a good thing. They don't think of themselves as being bad.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><a name="161">161.</a> No one knows what happens when they die because Bill Maher does not know</span> - Yes, that is something that would have to be revealed by God, which is what the western religions have claimed that God has done.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="162">162.</a> The only appropriate attitude on the big questions is doubt because doubt is humble</span> - Doubt isn't necessarily humble, it can also be prideful. If you have already decided that there is no way you can be convinced of something, then that is just as prideful as someone who is convinced of their position. The only appropriate attitude on the big questions is to find truth wherever that may be and commit to rational debate.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="163">163.</a> History is a litany of getting things wrong</span> - Agreed. That is why America was founded based on religious freedom, so that we would not make the mistakes of Europe after the middle ages. So, we should learn from the past and all support the marketplace of ideas, not shutting down discussion of any religious beliefs because we disagree with them.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="164">164.</a> Anti-relig</span><span style="font-weight: bold;">ionists must assert themselves </span>- Yes, every viewpoint should enter the marketplace of ideas. But, atheists can be just as dogmatic and narrow minded as religionists can be.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="165">165.</a> Solace and comfort of religion comes at a terrible price</span> - Solace and comfort in atheism under communism came at a terrible price as well. The key is to determine what is true and stick to that.<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/giginger/75541830/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 150px;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SQkhasBdeaI/AAAAAAAAAuM/GWsyeJeWkmQ/s200/Atomic+Bomb.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5262774381936736674" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="166">166.</a> You should quit Religion because of it's bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence and shear ignorance, to do otherwise makes you an enabler</span> - We should work hard to find truth wherever it is.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><a name="167">167.</a> </span><span style="font-weight: bold;">Let’s remember what the real problem was. That we learned how to</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it.</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span>- Predicting Armageddon does not mean that people wish for Armageddon.<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/answers-to-religulous-questions.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-6642748076939423152Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:15:00 +00002008-12-09T17:58:40.116-06:00Contemplative PrayerContemplative Prayer Taught To My Kids<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SPQ5GzktSvI/AAAAAAAAArk/OJn_MWBavbU/s1600-h/Silence+is+Golden.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SPQ5GzktSvI/AAAAAAAAArk/OJn_MWBavbU/s320/Silence+is+Golden.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5256889454134381298" border="0" /></a>It seems that I can't keep up with writing blogs for all the various ways that the Christian Church is being undermined with Hindu mysticism. I was minding my own business and another blog topic was thrust in my path yesterday afternoon...<br /><br />We have been attending a different church recently, but some of our kids were sick last week end so I let one of our teenagers go to the Sunday morning youth meeting at the church where we are still members. This is a good church that on paper at least is theologically sound and they have a strong heart for evangelism. So by most measures this is a very sound, evangelical church.<br /><br />My son brought back the sermon notes on the left (from the youth class) which talked about the "30 day silence" challenge. Here is their definition of how to improve prayer: <span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">"Find a quite place. Pray that God will reveal Himself. Sit quietly. Clear your mind, don't try to think. There is no time limit. Cross your legs in the lotus position"</span>. Well, I added the part about crossing your legs, but you get my point. Put it in a Christian context and it is "prayer". Put it in a Hindu context and it is Hindu meditation. The Christian movement that this comes from is apparently called "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemplative_prayer">Contemplative Prayer</a>" or "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centering_Prayer">Centering Prayer</a>".<br /><br />The core difference here is that in Christianity prayer is thinking or talking<span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;"> <span style="color: rgb(0, 153, 0);">information</span></span>, but in Hinduism it is usually <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">clearing the mind</span>. Also, meditation in the Christian context is thinking through <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; color: rgb(0, 153, 0);">information</span>, whereas in the Hindu context meditation usually is again <span style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">clearing the mind</span>. Though Hinduism is very broad, sometimes including most every possible practice, Hinduism in its most common form and Christianity still have <span style="font-weight: bold;">opposite concepts</span> of how one reaches enlightenment. Hinduism, in its most common form, seeks for us to realize, usually through clearing our minds, that we are one with Brahman and to detach from pain and pleasure in order to be released from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara">samsara</a>. In contrast, Christianity seeks for us to realize, through reason and study, who God is and what he wants from us. And Christianity seeks for us, through self sacrifice, to reduce real hurting for ourselves and others and to enjoy true pleasure as God designed it. So, Christianity and Hinduism are very much opposites. They can only be seemingly merged when Christian terms are instead infused with Hindu meanings. See <a href="http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_ContemplativePrayer1.html">Christian Answers for the New Age</a> for a more in depth analysis than I can do here.<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/roshnii/110087684/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SPRCROLTjVI/AAAAAAAAArs/2bQixyRCNUc/s200/Boys+Meditating.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5256899528678935890" border="0" /></a><br />To see what a pro-contemplative prayer web site says, see <a href="http://www.contemplativeoutreach.org/">Contemplative Outreach</a>. Note that they believe in the "Indwelling Trinity" rather than just the Holy Spirit and they do not seem to mention any concept of repentance. In short, they are promoting Hindu concepts in Christian terms. For a site that shows how contemplative prayer is making inroads into the Christian church, see the <a href="http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/cp.htm">Lighthouse Trails Research Project</a>.<br /><br />If I wanted my kids to learn contemplative prayer, I would take them to the <a href="http://theosophical.org/events/nationalprograms/index.php">meditati</a><a href="http://theosophical.org/events/nationalprograms/index.php">on class</a> which meets every Sunday at 11 AM at the local Theosophical society. They could perhaps even go to the <a href="http://www.healingsound.net/gong_therapy.htm">Gong Bath</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_bowl">Singing Bowl</a> classes (at the <a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1923396/posts">local Catholic Franciscan order</a>) to help them meditate better. Or instead, maybe I will wait for the Evangelical Christian version: the Organ Bath (give it time, someone will come up with a "Christianized" alternative). I'm not casting dispersions on the Theosophical Society. They are acting in keeping with their beliefs (which I do not share). But Christians who, without thinking through the issues, teach children to "clear their mind" during "prayer" are not in keeping with the Christian teachings they say that they are committed to. And Hindus and Buddhists who try to infuse Christian terms with Hindu meanings (in a Christian context) either do not know the difference or they are being disingenuous.<br /><br /><object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="http://web.chooseyourbeliefs.com/audio/player.swf" id="audioplayer1" width="290" height="24"><br /><param name="movie" value="http://web.chooseyourbeliefs.com/audio/player.swf"><br /><param name="FlashVars" value="playerID=1&amp;soundFile=http://web.chooseyourbeliefs.com/audio/lutzer/Silenceismostimportant.mp3"><br /><param name="quality" value="high"><br /><param name="menu" value="false"><br /><param name="wmode" value="transparent"><br /></object><br /><br /><a href="http://www.worldviewtube.com/video.php/3254/Brannon-Howse/Dr_Ron_Carlson">Dr. Ron Carlson - Eastern Philosophy Expert</a> - Video<br /><br /><a href="http://www.frbaptist.org/bin/view/Ptp/PtpTopic20060414133853">Rebuttal of Psalm 62</a> verses Dr. Lutzer used to support contemplative prayer <br /><br />John MacArthur vs Doug Pagett <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVdLZlBYseg&NR=1">video debate on Christian Yoga</a><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/10/contemplative-prayer-taught-to-my-kids.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-3878354990182429026Fri, 03 Oct 2008 04:19:00 +00002009-01-30T01:21:32.711-06:00Slang"My Gosh" - Acceptable Christian ProfanityI was trying to figure out the best word to describe when Christians use God's name without really thinking about how they may be disrespecting God, either through what is called "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minced_oath">Minced Oath</a><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minced_oath">s</a>" or using actually meaningful words. <span style="font-size:100%;">Some of the terms this could go by </span><span style="font-size:100%;">are:<br /></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profanity">Profanity</a> - </span><span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_0">irreverent</span> language, blasphemy<br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cursing">Cursing</a> - </span>to swear profanely<br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cuss">Cussing</a> - cursing<br /><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/expletive">Expletives</a></span> - an <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_1">interjectory</span> word or expression, frequently profane<br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/interjection">Interjections</a></span><span style="font-size:100%;"> - the utterance of a word or phase expressing emotion<br /><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/swearing">Swearing</a> </span>- to use profane language<br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vulgarity">Vulgarity</a> </span>- the quality of lacking taste and refinement<br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=blasphemy"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_2">Blasph</span></a></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=blasphemy"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_3">emy</span></a> - </span>impious utterance concerning God<br /><br />So, the terms "Profanity" and "Blasphemy" would seem to apply equally well. Note that I am concerned here about people who actually believe the creator God does exist and that He therefore should be respected. If you do not believe that God exists then of course disrespecting his name should probably not be a problem for you (other than possibly to not offend others who do believe in a Creator).<span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />Categories of Vulgarity</span></span><br />There seems to be four main categories of vulgarity commonly used:<br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/partsnpieces/389805983/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SO2b4Yka1YI/AAAAAAAAArM/XdgCP23Xw2Q/s200/no+profanity.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5255027733181420930" border="0" /></a><br />1. words relating to excrement ("potty words")<br />2. words related to acts of procreation and related body parts<br />3. words grouping and insulting people by race or other characteristic<br />4. words disrespecting God and His name<br /><br /><span style="font-size:100%;">Interestingly, most Christians do not have as much of a problem </span><span style="font-size:100%;">with the first three categories of vulgarity, or at least they <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_4">un</span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_5">derstand</span> that what they are saying is inappropriate. But many Christians have a significant problem using words that, knowingly or unknowingly, may disrespect God. So, in this post I am mainly concerned with the fourth category, words that potentially disrespect God.<br /><br />Christians potential disrespect for God's name has lead to the society at large more strongly disrespecting God's name in many cases. From a <a href="http://www.asa.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/1EAEACA7-8322-4C86-AAC2-4261551F57FE/0/ASA_Delete_Expletives_Dec_2000.pdf#search=%22%22delete%20expletives%22%22">Dec 2000 Poll</a> from the BBC, almost half of the respondents did not even think that using God's or <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_6">Jesus's</span> name flippantly was considered profanity. And a full 80% thought it was either not profanity or mild profanity, less w</span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_7">orse</span> than racial or procreation related vulgarity. But if the Creator God actually exists then you would expect that using his name flippantly would be much worse than any other kind of profanity.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Categories of Disrespect</span></span><br />So, what words could be disrespectful to God and how are they categorized? I will list the initial terms/phrases and their derivative "minced words".<br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">1. God's Name as an Interjection</span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"> (pain, surprise, fear, anger)<br /><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">"God":</span> "Gosh", "Golly", “Goodness”, "<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_8">Egads</span>”, ”Man”, "Dear God"<br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“God Almighty”:</span> “Gosh Almighty”, "Goodness Gracious"<br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">"Jesus":</span> "Jeez", “Gee”, “<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_9">Jeepers</span>”</span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“Christ”:</span> “<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_10">Criminy</span>”, ”Crikey”<br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“Jesus Christ”:</span> "G</span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_11">ee</span> Whizz", “<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_12">Jimminy</span> Cricket”, “<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_13">Jeepers</span> Creepers”, “Judas Priest”, “Gee <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_14">Willikers</span>”, ”<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_15">Jeezy</span> <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_16">Peezy</span>”, “<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_17">Jumpin</span> <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_18">Jehosaphat</span>”<br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">"Holy Christ":</span> "Holy Cow",</span><span style="font-size:100%;"> “Holy Cr.p”, “Cr.p”,</span><span style="font-size:100%;"> "Holy Sh..", "Holy Smokes", “Sh..”, ”Shoot”<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">(related) "Holy Mother of God":</span> "Holy <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_19">Moly</span>", "Holy Mackerel"<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">2. Christian Condemnations </span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"> (pain, surprise, fear, anger)</span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/36961634@N00/1387413369/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SO2cDLVseMI/AAAAAAAAArU/7e6a6WyBy3o/s200/No+Cussing.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5255027918608562370" border="0" /></a><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“May God Damn you to Hell”:</span> ”Darn you to Heck”,"Darn You", “Dang”, “Gosh Darn”, “Dad Gum”, “Dog Gone”, “Dag <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_20">Nabit</span>”, "Gall Dang it"</span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">"Go to Hell":</span> “Hell”, "Heck”, "Bloody Hell"</span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“Go to Damnation”</span>: "Damnation", ”<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_21">Tarnation</span>”</span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“God rot it”:</span> ”<a href="http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/161250.html">Drat</a>”</span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">3. Christian Expressions of Surprise</span></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“Oh, My God,...?</span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">”:</span> “My Word”, “Oh, My”, “My Goodness”, "O.M.G." (possibly from what Jesus said on the Cross, "<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027:46;&amp;version=49;">My God, Why have you <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_22">forsaken</span> me?"</a>)</span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">"Oh, My Lord,...?":</span> "Oh, My Lands"<span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><br /></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“Good God,...?”</span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">:</span> “Good Grief”, “Good Golly”, “Good Gosh”, "Good Gravy", "Go</span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_23">od</span> Night"<br /></span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;font-size:100%;" >“Good Lord,...?”</span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><br /></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“Oh, My Heavens...?”:</span> “Heavens to Betsy”, ”Heavens”<br /></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“What the Hell?”:</span> “What the Blazes”, “What the Heck”, "What the...", "What in the world?", "What on earth?"<br /></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">4. Asking </span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">to do something for God</span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">”For God’s sake”:</span> “for Gosh sake”, </span><span style="font-size:100%;"> ”For Pete's sake (St. Peter)”</span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“For the Lords sake”:</span> “for Lands sakes”<br /><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">“For Christ’s sake”: </span>“For crying out loud”<br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“For the love of God”</span>: "For the love of Pete (St. Peter)"<br /><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">“For the love of Christ”<br /></span><span style="font-size:130%;"><br /></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">5. Christian Oaths</span></span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">“By God”:</span> “By Golly”, “By George”, ”By Jove”, “By Gum”, </span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-size:130%;"><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">6. Other Minced Words</span></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">“God’s Hooks (nails on the cross)”:</span> “<a href="http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/146125.html"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_24">Gadzooks</span></a>”</span><span style="font-size:100%;"><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">"Raising Hell"</span>: "Raising Heck", "Raising Cain"</span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">"Mother of God"<br />"God Bless You": </span>"Bless You"<br /></span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">"God help us"<br />"Lord help us"</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">"God have mercy"<br />"Lord have mercy"<br /></span><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br />7. Other Trivializing Sayings</span></span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">god-forsaken</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">god-send</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">sinfully delicious foods</span><br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><a href="http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Cakes/AngelFoodCake.htm">Angel's Food</a></span><span> (Sponge Cake)</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">, <a href="http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Cakes/DevilsFoodCake.htm">Devil's Food</a> </span><span>(Red Velvet Cake)</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">, <a href="http://www.deviledeggs.com/why_called_deviled_eggs.html">Deviled Eggs</a></span> (Stuffed Eggs)<br /><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Jokes with God, Jesus or Heaven in it</span><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Relevant Bible Passages</span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;">There are quite a few Bible passages that talk about how we should control what we say. Some seem to actually be talking about making sure we use sound doctrine and rational arguments (</span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Tim.%201:13;&amp;version=49;">2 Tim 1:13</a>,<span style="font-size:100%;"> </span><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%202:7-8;&amp;version=49;">Tit 2:7-8</a></span><span style="font-size:100%;">). </span>The most often quoted passage that is related does apply, but the primary application seems to be in keeping oaths and honestly following God:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:7;&amp;version=49;">Ex 20:7</a><span id="en-NASB-2059" class="sup" style="font-size:85%;"> <span style="font-style: italic;">7 </span></span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"<span style="font-weight: bold;">You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain</span>, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.</span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-size:100%;">The most conclusive passage concerning honoring God's name seems to be:<br /><br /></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2011:2;&amp;version=49;">Luke 11:2</a> <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">And He said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, <span style="font-weight: bold;">hallowed be Your name</span>. Your kingdom come.</span></span><br /><br />Here are some other relevant passages:<br /><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:30-37;&amp;version=49;">Mat 12:30-37</a></span> <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">If you continue to believe and say the Holy Spirit is evil, then you are actually the one who is evil and will be treated accordingly; 36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23527" class="sup" >37</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> For <span style="font-weight: bold;">by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned</span>." </span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" >(This passage has to do with calling good evil, but mention "careless words"</span>).<br /><br /></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-22;&amp;version=49;">Mat 5:21-22</a> </span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23256" class="sup" >21 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23257" class="sup" >22</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and <span style="font-weight: bold;">whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell</span>." </span></span><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">(This one seems to rule out Christian condemnations (category 5) when directed at other people</span></span>).<br /><br /></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:33-37;&amp;version=49;">Mat 5:33-37</a></span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23268" class="sup" >33 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23269" class="sup" >34</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">" But I say to you, <span style="font-weight: bold;">make no oath at all</span>, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23270" class="sup" >35 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23271" class="sup" >36 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23272" class="sup" >37 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" >(No oaths or vows invoking a higher power, rather just promise saying yes you will do something).</span><br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:11-13;&amp;version=49;"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_25">Eph</span> 5:11-13</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29316" class="sup" >11</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29317" class="sup" >12 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">for <span style="font-weight: bold;">it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29318" class="sup" >13 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. (Some things should not be spoken about, and euphemisms may be appropriate).</span></span><br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:1-5;&amp;version=49;"><span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_26">Eph</span> 5:1-5 </a> <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">1 Therefore <span style="font-weight: bold;">be imitators of God</span>, as beloved children; </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29307" class="sup" >2 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.</span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29308" class="sup" > 3 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29309" class="sup" >4 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">and <span style="font-weight: bold;">there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting</span>, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29310" class="sup" >5</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" >(This likely refers to the other three types of vulgarity).</span><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/psd/96735501/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SORvO8VZryI/AAAAAAAAAoU/anJB9N3fOwE/s200/honor+god.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5252445367925583650" border="0" /></a><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2015:17-20;&amp;version=49;">Mat 15:17-20</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23651" class="sup" >17 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23652" class="sup" >18 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"But the <span style="font-weight: bold;">things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.</span> </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23653" class="sup" >19 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_27">fornications</span>, thefts, false witness, slanders. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23654" class="sup" >20 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."</span></span><br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%205:11-12;&amp;version=49;">James 5:11-12</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30366" class="sup" >11 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">We count those blessed who endured You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30367" class="sup" >12 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">But above all, my brethren, do not swear</span>, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment. </span></span><br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%203:1-12;&amp;version=49;">James 3:1-12</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30321" class="sup" >1</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30322" class="sup" >2 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">For we all stumble in many ways. <span style="font-weight: bold;">If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. </span> </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30323" class="sup" >3 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30324" class="sup" >4 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30325" class="sup" >5 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30326" class="sup" >6 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">And<span style="font-weight: bold;"> the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity;</span> the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30327" class="sup" >7 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30328" class="sup" >8 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">But<span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span>no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30329" class="sup" >9 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30330" class="sup" >10 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30331" class="sup" >11 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-30332" class="sup" >12</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.</span></span><br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2010:31-32;&amp;version=49;">Prov 10:31-32</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-16688" class="sup" >31</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> The mouth of the righteous flows with wisdom, But the perverted tongue will be cut out. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-16689" class="sup" >32 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">The lips of the righteous bring forth what is acceptable, But the mouth of the wicked what is perverted.</span></span><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:8;&amp;version=49;"><br />Col 3:8</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29526" class="sup" >8 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">But now you also, <span style="font-weight: bold;">put them all aside</span>: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and <span style="font-weight: bold;">abusive speech</span> from your mouth.</span></span><br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:29-32;&amp;version=49;">Eph 4:29-32</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29302" class="sup" >29 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth</span>, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29303" class="sup" >30</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29304" class="sup" >31</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-29305" class="sup" >32</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.</span></span><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20141:3-4%20;&amp;version=49;"><br />Psalm 141:3-4</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-16280" class="sup" >3 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Set a guard, O LORD, over my mouth</span>; Keep watch over the door of my lips.</span><br /></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-16281" class="sup" >4</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, To practice deeds of wickedness With men who do iniquity; And do not let me eat of their delicacies.</span></span><br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi%201:6-8;&amp;version=49;">Mal 1:6-8</a> <span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23096" class="sup" >6</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> " 'A son honors his father, and a servant his master Then <span style="font-weight: bold;">if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?' says the LORD </span>of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, 'How have we despised Your name?' </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23097" class="sup" >7 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"You are presenting defiled food upon My altar But you say, 'How have we defiled You?' In that you say, 'The table of the LORD is to be despised.' </span></span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-23098" class="sup" >8</span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">" But when you present the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you present the lame and sick, is it not evil? Why not offer it to your governor? Would he be pleased with you? Or would he receive you kindly?" says the LORD of hosts.</span><br /></span><br /><a href="http://www.blogger.com/Isaiah%2057:15">Isaiah 57:15</a> <span style="font-style: italic;font-size:85%;" id="en-NASB-18781" class="sup" >15 </span><span style="font-size:85%;"><span style="font-style: italic;">For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, <span style="font-weight: bold;">whose name is Holy</span>, I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.</span> (His name is Holy)</span><br /><br />Also, note that the Jews have historically had a high <a href="http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm">reverence for Gods name</a>.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">How Should We Then Speak?</span></span><br />The Bible passages do seem to indicate that there is a significant problem here. So, what is the solution? Here are my suggestions:<br /><br />1. Only say words that have meaning, that you understand and mean what you say<br />2. For the other three groups of vulgarity, use euphemisms for procreation and excrement words, and be respectful of all groups of people.<br />3. Practice articulating your thoughts well. Consider taking a speech or debate class.<br />4. Find some other way to increase your self respect (accomplish something you feel is valuable).<br />5. Learn a new vocabulary for strong emotion. Find new words to use in each of these categories:<br /><br />5.1 Surprise<br />5.2 Pain<br />5.3 Fear<br />5.4 Anger<br />5.5 Emphasis<br />5.6 Demonstrate authority<br />5.7 Strong rebuke<br />5.8 Strongly promise<br />5.9 Strongly ask<br /><br />And above all, if you have used those phrases regularly in the past, don't forget to apologize to God for not treating his name with respect. I'm sure, at least in American society, God would be happy to hear people finally turning and giving him the respect that is due Him.<div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/08/gosh-socially-acceptable-christian.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7130383398842478852.post-2329769204836843220Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:26:00 +00002010-09-19T03:19:04.713-05:00Body ModificationTattooChristian Body Modification<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/wonderlane/27749236/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 162px; height: 200px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SjciJLxDbtI/AAAAAAAABv0/hQ6PCJxGEcQ/s200/Cross+Piercing.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5347780623698456274" border="0" /></a>Please note as your read this that I have friends and family who have tattoos and/or body piercings, so this isn't a judgment about their worth as individuals. But we shouldn't have to accept something as a being right just because others that we care for and respect believe it to be acceptable. We must not give up the ability to choose our beliefs on our own from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_principle">first principles</a>.<br /><br />Also, please be aware that the question of tattoos and body piercings may really come down to a question about how we should interpret and interact with laws/rules such as the clear <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2019:28&amp;version=NASB">prohibition on tattoos</a> in Leviticus (discussed in more detail below). So, ultimately you may want to see my entry on how most people misunderstand Paul's views on law and the old testament. See my post called "<a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/understanding-paul-from-speed-limits.html">U</a><a href="http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/12/understanding-paul-from-speed-limits.html">nderstanding Paul from Speed Limits</a>".<br /><br />My oldest son is a freshman at a Christian college this year. His martial arts instructor that we have gone to for years. and who we respect, has a large cross tattooed on his back. So my son has jokingly said in the past that he would like to get a tattoo knowing that we would disapprove. In an <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_1">IM</span> the night before last he said that he had talked with one of his instructors and that they said that it is O.K. for Christians to get tattoos and that the Bible doesn't say anything bad about body modification.<br /><div><div><div><div><br /><div>I told him that he is an adult now and out of the house, so we would not give him any problems if he did decide to get a tattoo. But I asked him to wait and see this blog post before he makes his decision. So, Noah, here it is...</div><div><br /></div><div>Tattoos are just one form of the broader topic of "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_modification">body modification</a>" or "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_art">body ar</a><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_art">t</a>", which includes body piercing. Take a look at the list of body modifications in the link above. Can you honestly say that some tattoos and piercing are O.K. but that the other listed forms of body modifications are not acceptable? Do you really have a defensible position as to why some body modifications are O.K. and others aren't? </div><br /><div>One problem most people have with arguing against body modifications is that they try to accept some modifications as O.K. and then exclude others as not O.K. without a clear distinction. So, if a mother pierces her ears then on what basis, other than social preference, does she have to argue against her daughter piercing other parts of her body? Or if you let your kids put on stickers, draw on themselves or use temporary tattoos, how much different is a permanent tattoo? Also, we wear pictures and word on our clothing, so why not wear pictures and words directly on our skin?</div><div><br /></div>The Bible does list at least two acceptable forms of body modification: <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:1-14,Romans%202:27-29&amp;version=NASB">Circumcision</a> of a Jewish person whose life is being committed to God and the piercing of the ear of someone who volunteers to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:5-6,&amp;version=NASB">freely work as a slave for life</a>.<br /><div><br /></div><div>Interestingly, both are meant to signify submission and slavery to a master for the rest of their lifetime, with a body modification that will last for the rest of their lifetime. And both were performed at significant life changes: eight days after birth and after deciding to stay a slave for the rest of your life. So, while these are an acceptable body modification, they only justify modifications that would symbolize that you are committed to be a slave for life. Also, circumcision is totally unseen (hopefully) and having one pierced ear is a minimal </div><div><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/buggio/1325021956/"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 150px; height: 200px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SjcZPfSGmVI/AAAAAAAABvU/_g_ciXPEa4g/s200/Too+Many+Tattoos.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5347770836411914578" border="0" /></a>modification, and neither adds a symbol or picture to the body.</div><div> </div><br /><div>Rebecca was given nose rings by Abraham's chief servant, but she was still in a polytheistic culture (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2024:15-22,%20gen%2024:45-47&amp;version=NASB">Genesis 24</a>). His goal was to convince here to come back and marry Isaac, so his gifts may say more about how the polytheistic culture valued nose rings than how the future Jewish culture would value nose rings.</div><div><br /></div><div>When Jacob's family wanted to set themselves apart to the Lord, earrings are specifically mentioned as items that they put off (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2035:2-4&amp;version=NASB">Gen 35:2-4</a>). </div><div><br /></div><div>It was the custom of Ishmaelite men to wear gold earrings (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%208:24&amp;version=NASB">Judges 8:24</a>), but that implies that the Israelite men did not wear gold earrings.</div><div><br /></div><div>The Israelites melted their earrings and jewelry after leaving Egypt (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2035:21-23&amp;version=NASB">Ex 35:21-23</a>) to melt down to make items for the temple (and, of course, earlier for making the golden calf, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2032:1-4&amp;version=NASB">Ex 32:1-4</a>), so it would likely have been fashionable for Israelite women in the early years of Israel to not wear gold jewelry.<br /><br />The reference in <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2019:11-16;&amp;version=49;">Revelations 19:11-16</a> to what appears to be writing on the body is obviously figurative:<br /><br /><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-31030" class="versenum" value="11">11</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-31031" class="versenum" value="12">12</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">He has a name written on Him which no one knows</span> except Himself. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-31032" class="versenum" value="13">13</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">He is <span style="font-weight: bold;">clothed with a robe dipped in blood</span>, and His name is called The Word of God. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-31033" class="versenum" value="14">14</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And the armies </span><span style="font-style: italic;">which are in heaven, clothed in f</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-31034" class="versenum" value="15">15</sup><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">From His mouth comes a sharp sword</span>, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> wine press of the fierce wrath of G</span><span style="font-style: italic;">od, the Almighty. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-31035" class="versenum" value="16">16</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">And <span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written</span>, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." </span><br /><br />- If this is a reference to a literal tattoo on Jesus, then he also has a literal sword in his mouth<br />- If he actually had a tattoo of his name on his body, how could he keep others from knowing that name?<br />- If the name was on his robe which is clothing, the reference to his thigh may be to clothing over his thigh<br /><br /></div><div>Trimming hair is not actually a "body" modification, unless possibly you are trying to make some artwork or something symbolic out of shaving parts of your hair. But in any case, hair modification doesn't have the permanency that tattoos or piercings can have.</div><br />In <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%2019:27-32&amp;version=NASB">Lev 19:27-32</a>:<br /><br /><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-3309" class="versenum" value="27">27</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">' You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-3310" class="versenum" value="28">28</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">'</span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">You shall not make any cuts in your</span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-style: italic;"> body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves</span><span style="font-style: italic;">: I am the LORD. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-3311" class="versenum" value="29">29</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">'</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">D</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">o not profane your daughter by making her a harlot</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-3312" class="versenum" value="30">30</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">'You shall </span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">keep My sabbaths</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> and </span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">revere My sanctuary</span><span style="font-style: italic;">; I am the L</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ORD. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-3313" class="versenum" value="31">31</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">'</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Do not turn to mediums or spiritists</span><span style="font-style: italic;">; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. </span><sup style="font-style: italic;" id="en-NASB-3314" class="versenum" value="32">32</sup><span style="font-style: italic;">'You shall rise up before the grayheaded and </span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">honor the aged</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, an</span><span style="font-style: italic;">d you s</span><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SMyanhBZP6I/AAAAAAAAAiU/M_5VxnAONtY/s1600-h/Ill+Angelic+Logo.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SMyanhBZP6I/AAAAAAAAAiU/M_5VxnAONtY/s320/Ill+Angelic+Logo.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5245737669649579938" border="0" /></a><span style="font-style: italic;">hall </span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">revere your God</span><span style="font-style: italic;">; I am the LORD.</span><br /><br />Even if you can reason away the clear statement not to have tattoos as being only applied to that particular culture, you have to ask yourself whether the underlying concept still applies today or not. So, look at the surrounding prohibitions and requirements and ask yourself, are tattoos today associated with the good things listed or the prohibited things?<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">harlotry</span> - a tattoo in a given location in slang is called by some a "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramp_stamp">tramp stamp</a>", so some tattoos can be associated with the general concept of "harlotry"<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">reverence</span> - are tattoos associated with reverence? The statistics below say that tattoos are still associated in most peoples mind with rebellion rather than reverence<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">honor the aged</span> - most older family members would likely counsel against getting a tattoo, so tattoos are associated with a disregard of the recommendations of most of our grandparents<br /><br />So, even today, tattoos are associated with the negative aspects of the surrounding prohibitions and therefore would seem to still apply to our culture in a similar fashion to how it applied to the culture of the day when the prohibition was written.<br /><br /><div><strong>Tattooing </strong><strong>is painting over an existing work of art</strong></div>Most people getting <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_2">tattoos</span> assume the body is a blank pallet that they will be putting art on. But actually, the body in totality is already an amazing work of art. Think about the attributes of a work of art: symmetry, blending of shades without abrupt boundaries, both form and functionality, communicates through scenery and not symbols etc.. Before painting over an existing work of art, we must make sure that the new artwork is an improvement over the old.<br /><br /><div>To do that, the tattoos should maintain the symmetry (the same artwork on both sides of the body), blend into the colors of the body, only use earth tones, not include symbols/words, etc..</div><div>Look at things you would consider God's works of art. The human form, a sunset, a mountain, etc.. Compare that type of art to the tattoo you are considering getting. Basically, when you get a tattoo you are saying that your choice of design is better than God's design for your body.</div><br /><div><strong>Tattooing is still associated with non-Christian behavior</strong></div>While in an idealistic world, people would judge others by their character and not by things such as tattoos, in the real world people only have a short time and little information to <a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://mag.rankmytattoos.com/top-twenty-worst-tramp-stamp-tattoos.html"><img style="margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 10px; float: right; cursor: pointer; width: 167px; height: 200px;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SjcidpPDUKI/AAAAAAAABv8/P7FcBeBVxu4/s200/TrampStamp.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5347780975206289570" border="0" /></a>decide what <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_3">someone's</span> character actually is. So, all of us use fallacious reasoning daily to make quick decisions where we don't have the time or information necessary to make logically valid decisions. So, if a Christian gets a tattoo, they need to understand that by necessity the tattoo will be one point of information that people will use to make their initial judgement about their character.<br /><br /><div><a href="http://www.fibre2fashion.com/industry-article/13/1262/the-world-of-tattoos1.asp">History of tattoos around the world</a></div><div>Insofar as the initial cultural (or subcultural) use of tattoos predates the widespread popularity of tattoos in the general population, tattoos are still somewhat associated with rebellion and anti-Christian behavior.</div><br />Over half of those without a tattoo (54%) do believe that someone with one is more rebellious, almost the same as those who thought this in 2003 (57%).</div><div><br /></div><div>And over one-third (36%) of those <b>with</b> a tattoo say having it makes them feel more rebellious</div><div><br /></div><div>Also, one-third of those without a tattoo (32%) say people with tattoos are more likely to do something most people would consider deviant<br /><br /><div>Those with a tattoo may think it makes them look attractive, but actually those people without a tattoo do not agree, as just under half (47%) say people with tattoos are less attractive (up from 42% who felt this way in 2003) and two in five (39%) of those without one say people with a tattoo are less sexy. And about one-quarter of those without tattoos say those with tattoos are less intelligent (27%) and less healthy (25%).</div><br /><div>Listen to some people who have gotten tattoos then <a href="http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=868">regretted it</a> for the rest of their lives:</div><div><br />20% Too young when I got the tattoo<br />19% Permanent (marked for life)<br />18% Don’t like it<br />16% They fade over time<br />12% Location (too hard to hide)<br />11% Poor choice/picked the wrong tattoo<br />10% Was stupid/dumb thing to do<br />9% Poorly done/doesn’t look professional<br />7% Cost too much to remove<br />7% Ugly/doesn’t look good<br />3% Personality changes/doesn’t fit my present lifestyle<br />5% Other</div><br /><a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SMyOAOTZnlI/AAAAAAAAAh0/ox3EKSbVaEE/s1600-h/Attitudes+about+people+with+tattoos.jpg"><img id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5245723800470396498" style="margin: 0px 10px 10px 0px; float: left;" alt="" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/SMyOAOTZnlI/AAAAAAAAAh0/ox3EKSbVaEE/s320/Attitudes+about+people+with+tattoos.jpg" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><strong></strong><strong></strong><strong></strong><strong>Consider the psychology and reason that you are considering getting a tattoo</strong><br /><div>Any action we take is designed to fulfill a need or desire. For what reason are you considering getting a tattoo. Here are some likely options:</div><div><br /></div><div>1. To look like someone you respect</div>2. To make yourself stand out from the crowd<div>3. To make your body look better</div>4. To show bravery, having done something that others fear doing<br /><div>5. To show other that you are willing to break rules/traditions</div>6. To show that you make decisions that are different than your parents<br /><div>7. To show that you are a man/women and no longer a boy/girl</div>For boys, that is the role that the beard is supposed to play<br />8. To attract a mate<br /><div>9. To market to others that you are a Christian (if you use a Christian symbol)</div>10. To scare others away from causing you problems<br /><div>11. To improve a poor self image</div>12. To shock people<br /><br /><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://newsinitiative.org/story/2007/08/16/christian_tattoo_the_needle_for"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer; width: 300px; height: 270px;" src="http://newsinitiative.org/media/56/image/anna-300-promo.jpg" alt="" border="0" /></a><div>Do you want the tattoo somewhere where people will usually not see it (private areas, stomach, back, etc..), where people will see it sometimes (upper arm/shoulder, neck line, etc..), or where they will always see it (face, forearms, etc..)?</div><div> </div><br />A study of "at-risk" (as defined by school absenteeism and truancy) adolescent girls showed a positive correlation between body-modification and negative feelings towards their body and self-esteem; however, it also illustrated a strong motive of body-modification as the "search for self and attempts to attain mastery and control over the body in an age of increasing alienation."</div><div><br /><div><a href="http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=868">How Tattoos Make People Feel</a><br />When presented with eight different personal characteristics, majorities say that compared to not having a tattoo, having one makes them feel no different. This is especially true when attributed to being healthy, athletic or intelligent, where more than nine in ten with tattoos say it makes no difference in how they feel. Over one-third (36%) of those with a tattoo, however, saying having it makes them feel more rebellious, up from 29 percent who felt this way in 2003, and three in ten (31%) say the tattoo makes then feel sexy. One in five (19%) each say having the tattoo makes them feel attractive and strong.</div><strong></strong><br /><div><strong>Historically, societies that became Christian stopped using tattoos</strong></div>Historically, a decline in traditional tribal tattooing in Europe occurred with the spread of Christianity. However, some Christian groups, such as the Knights of St. John of Malta, sported tattoos to show their allegiance. A decline often occurred in other cultures after European efforts to convert aboriginal and indigenous people to Western religious and cultural practices which held tattooing to be a "pagan" or "heathen" activity. Within some traditional indigenous cultures, tattooing takes place within the context of a rite of passage between adolescence and adulthood.</div><div><div><b><br /></b></div><div><strong></strong></div><strong><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:19-20&amp;version=NASB">You don't own your body...</a> it is owned by God.</strong><br /><div><strong></strong></div><div>Also, your future spouse will have <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%207:2-5&amp;version=NASB">ownership of your body</a> as well, so you should wait and get the approval of your future spouse. If you can say that you will limit your potential future wife to those people who approve of their husband having a tattoo, then fine. But if you may marry someone who may disapprove of you<span><span>r tattoo,</span></span> then out of concern and love for your future spouse, you should wait to make sure they approve before getting a tattoo.</div><br /><strong>Jews and Muslims generally agree that God does not approve of tattoos.</strong></div><div><div><strong><br /></strong></div><div><strong>Tattooing and piercing is not natural. No animals tattoo or pierce themselves.</strong></div><br /><div><strong>Using Christian tattoos as a substitute for do</strong><strong>ing truly hard things to follow God</strong></div>Christians who get a Christian symbol tattooed on themselves may think they are honoring God by the tattoo. But many times Christians avoid the hard <a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2886309102/"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer; width: 137px; height: 200px;" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/Sjcc6PUu10I/AAAAAAAABvk/TJlbaZff1ZA/s200/Japanese+Tattoos.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5347774869397231426" border="0" /></a>work and risk of doing the hard things for God then substitute something quick and easy so they can satisfy their <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_4">conscience</span> and feel that they have done something good.<br /><br /><div>By getting a Christian symbol as a tattoo you may think that you are doing more than other Christians would be willing to do. When you think about your self image, you may say to yourself "I am a strong Christian because I have a Christian tattoo, that is proof." But getting a tattoo doesn't prove you a strong Christian. Figuring out what God probably wants and doing that, regardless of the consequences, is what will give you proof of being a strong Christian. </div><strong></strong><br /><div><strong>Tattooing and piercing can cause some medical problems</strong></div>See the FDA publication <a href="http://www.fda.gov/consumer/features/tattoos120607.html">Think Before You Ink: Are Tattoos Safe?</a><br /><div> </div><br /><div><span class="blsp-spelling-corrected">Infections</span> that could be transmitted via the use of unsterilized tattoo equipment or contaminated ink include surface infections of the skin, <a title="Herpes simplex virus" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_simplex_virus">herpes simplex virus</a>, <a title="Tetanus" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus">tetanus</a>, <a class="mw-redirect" title="Staph" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staph">staph</a>, fungal infections, some forms of <a title="Hepatitis" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis">hepatitis</a>, tuberculosis<a title="" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattoo#cite_note-13">[1</a><a title="" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattoo#cite_note-13">4]</a> and <a title="HIV" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV">HIV</a>.</div><div> </div><br /><div>People with tattoos are nine times more likely to be infected with hepatitis C, according to a study by <a title="Robert Haley" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Haley">Robert Haley</a>, MD, chief of epidemiology at the <a class="mw-redirect" title="University of Texas" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas">University of Texas</a> Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. Hepatitis C is spread by infected blood and infected needles, which is the virus' connection with tattooing.</div><br /><div><a title="Allergy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergy">Allergic</a> reactions to tattoo pigments are uncommon except for certain brands of red and green. People who are sensitive or allergic to certain metals may react to pigments in the skin with swelling and/or itching, and/or oozing of clear fluid called <a title="Serum" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serum">serum</a>. Such reactions are quite rare, however, and some artists will recommend performing a test patch.</div><div> </div><br /><div>After initial injection, pigment is dispersed throughout a homogenized damaged layer down through the epidermis and upper dermis, in both of which the presence of foreign material activates the immune system's phagocytes to engulf the pigment particles. As healing proceeds, the damaged epidermis flakes away (eliminating surface pigment) while deeper in the skin granulation tissue forms, which is later converted to connective tissue by collagen growth. </div><br /><div>...may have complications, such as allergies to the pigments, formation of scars, granulomas and keloids, skin cracking, peeling, blistering and local infection. The use of unsterilized tattooing instruments may infect the patient with serious diseases such as HIV and hepatitis.</div><div><br /></div><div>When getting a tattoo, the equipment rapidly and repeatedly drives the needles in and out of the skin, usually 80 to 150 times a second.</div><div><br /></div><div><strong>Tattoos are permanent, the message you want to convey may not be</strong></div><div><strong><br /></strong></div><div><strong>Tattoos will fade over time</strong></div>In the long term (over decades) the pigment tends to migrate deeper into the dermis, accounting for the degraded detail of old tattoos. Sixteen percent of people regret their tattoo because they fade over time.<br /><strong></strong><br /><div><strong>You may encourage others to go farther</strong></div>When you are a grandfather, as you sure you will want to be explaining your tattoo to your grandchildren? And what if you have kids that want tattoos for perhaps less noble reasons than you do now? What if they want more severe body modifications? They will argue the you thought modifying your body was O.K. for your reasons, so their modifications should be O.K. too. Also, tattooing can <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_6">encourage</span> those who cut themselves. What kind of example are you being to those people who may go farther in this direction than you did?</div><div><div style="text-align: right;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;"><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 16px;"><b><br /></b></span></span></span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 21px;"><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 16px;"><b><br /></b></span></span></span></span></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size:130%;"><a class="header" href="http://uscobm.com/">The Church of Body Modification</a></span><br /><br /></div><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://uscobm.com/"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer; width: 200px; height: 97px;" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n5dBoO7W3n8/Sjc0QVyS1yI/AAAAAAAABwM/PpSdfaC6_3M/s200/Church+of+Body+Modification+Hanging+by+Hooks.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5347800537856399138" border="0" /></a></div><div><br /><strong>Will there be tattoos in the New Jerusalem?</strong></div>Those Christians living when Christ returns will have their bodies transformed. Do you think when you go into the New Jerusalem that your new heavenly body will still have the tattoo or piercings? If not, why would God erase an improvement to your body? If you think that you will not keep your modifications in the New Jerusalem then do you really think God prefers you to have the body modifications in the first place?<br /><br /><div></div><strong>The person getting the tattoo has to justify why this is good, since the default is not to have a tattoo.</strong><br /><div><strong></strong></div><br /><div><strong>The same justification for getting a tattoo can be used for the second one, third one, etc.. </strong>The increase in self esteem only lasts for awhile, then you may want to get more body modifications over time.</div><strong></strong><br /><div><strong>This is an expenditure of money that can best be used elsewhere. Give the money instead to help fund surgeries for kids with disfigured faces rather than adding art to your body. <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal;">Even if you think this is an improvement to your body, is improving your body really the best use of your time and money?</span> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal;">Where is your focus and desire?</span> <span style="font-weight: normal;">Where your treasure is, there is where you heart is (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206:19-21&amp;version=NASB">Matthew 6:19-21</a>). </span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><br /><br />Why not get a henna temporary tattoo first to try it out? It is interesting that most people who get a tattoo don't try temporary tattoos first. What other permanent change do people make without trying it out for awhile first?<br /><br />Are you sure you understand all the meanings associated with your design? Some people interpret designs differently, so you may be projecting an unintended meaning.<br /><br /><br /><br /></span></strong></div><div></div><div> </div></div></div></div></div><div class="feedflare">
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</div>http://www.chooseyourbeliefs.com/2008/09/christian-body-modification.htmlnoreply@blogger.com (Lowell Ballard)9