tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post114333387340337510..comments2015-03-31T13:40:41.281-05:00Comments on Althouse: "The Quran is very clear and the words of our prophet are very clear. There can only be one outcome: death."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143531840024432782006-03-28T01:44:00.000-06:002006-03-28T01:44:00.000-06:00The context is misunderstood and there isn't anyht...The context is misunderstood and there isn't anyhting in the quraan sayiong that a person should be killed for not believing in Islam.<BR/><BR/>Infact the Quraan says that "there is no compulsion in religion." This alone disallows the killing of someone merely over a change of faith.<BR/><BR/>a good article which explains this particular issue about Abdul Rahman can be found at http://front-line.blogspot.com<BR/><BR/>Thanks.<BR/><BR/>M.Muhammadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08583045828441649786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143466601982934032006-03-27T07:36:00.000-06:002006-03-27T07:36:00.000-06:00"...is by hiking the tax on oil. I suggest $5 a ga...<I>"...is by hiking the tax on oil. I suggest $5 a gallon."<BR/><BR/>"....we should cut taxes elsewhere. I suggest eliminating the income tax on corporations."</I><BR/><BR/>And who could be elected or re-elected advocating such program?bearbeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00878339252965962998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143414403713885402006-03-26T17:06:00.000-06:002006-03-26T17:06:00.000-06:00Not true Abraham.We consume 30% of the world's oil...Not true Abraham.<BR/><BR/>We consume 30% of the world's oil. If we can cut that consumption by half, the price of oil would plunge.<BR/><BR/>If we could invest in alternate energies and make those viable, the price of oil would also go down.<BR/><BR/>The quickest way to increase those investments is by hiking the tax on oil. I suggest $5 a gallon. That would increase private investment in alternate energies, lower the price of oil and choke off money to Saudi Arabia.<BR/><BR/>To prevent our economy from tanking because of the gas tax hike, we should cut taxes elsewhere. I suggest eliminating the income tax on corporations.downtownladhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00043685450909516976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143413795843883922006-03-26T16:56:00.000-06:002006-03-26T16:56:00.000-06:00Downtownlad: I totally agree on the energy indepen...Downtownlad: I totally agree on the energy independence issue being good for the United States, and that nuclear energy is the least worst practical solution at the moment. But the reality is that despite the impression one might get from the environmentalist movement, we are not the planet's only consumer of oil. In fact, only a small portion of the petroleum we consume even comes from Saudi Arabia. Therefore, even if we completely stopped patronizing them, it would do little to nothing to de-fund them or cripple them in any significant way.Abrahamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08727311304798747642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143412930442984822006-03-26T16:42:00.000-06:002006-03-26T16:42:00.000-06:00Dave said: "All that I ask of the religious is tha...Dave said: "All that I ask of the religious is that they consider the depths to which religion has sunk man."<BR/><BR/>All I ask is that you quit your thoughtless mantra and demonstrate that you know what you're talking about. Or was that just something you heard, thought sounded good, and adopted as your faith?<BR/><BR/>Dave said: "Where is the debate about the ways in which religion has been used as a cudgel to suppress and oppress dissenting opinion?"<BR/><BR/>In the past, I have attempted to engage you in debate. Finn Kristiansen attempted to engage you on this thread. So far you have refused.<BR/><BR/>I'll try again. You are correct. Religion has been used as a cudgel to supress and opress dissenting opinion. Science has been used to kill millions. Is science bad?Johnny Nucleohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12643996886903710573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143410156058921552006-03-26T15:55:00.000-06:002006-03-26T15:55:00.000-06:00This is supposed to be one of the verses in suppor...This is supposed to be one of the verses in support of killing apostates from Islam. I have to go watch a movie, but I have two copies of the Quran and may try to go over it more thoroughly later on. <BR/><BR/>Surah 4: 88-89<BR/>88. Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way.<BR/>89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected, and thus you all become equal. So take not Auliya (protectors and friends) from them till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. <B>But if they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them</B>, and take neither Auliya nor helpers from them.Freeman Hunthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143394566882142942006-03-26T11:36:00.000-06:002006-03-26T11:36:00.000-06:00downtownlad said... Balfegor - I'm agnostic. If Go...<I>downtownlad said... <BR/>Balfegor - I'm agnostic. If God does exist, I'm almost certain that he doesn't care whether or not humans (one species amongst billions) on a tiny planet amongst trillions) practice one religion or another.</I><BR/><BR/>Yea, because it's natural for a creator to create something, and then not care what happens to it. Perfect sense. <BR/><BR/>Isn't it possible that God could have created millions of worlds, each with it's own story, and it's own path to him (and one that is irrelevant to our own path). Isn't it possible that some worlds are in fact in daily unison and conversation with that God, (having not screwed up or turned away), while other worlds, like ours, need a bit of help and instruction?<BR/><BR/>Kind of like having children... some follow your path, often they don't. Some stay in touch, some don't. But you never actually forget the number of kids you have, and you do care what choices they make. <BR/><BR/>Religions are choices, and it's illogical to assume that they will all- being different paths- get you to the same destination.<BR/><BR/>And if in one religion God is saying, "Hey, talk to me through prayer" and in the other religion God is saying, "Smoke this bong and let Brother Bob bang your hot wife", well, one could imagine the theoretical REAL God having a concern about which religion you choose. <BR/><BR/>Does a religion make you love those around you? Does it help you reduce the suffering in the world? Does a religion point ask you to share the good news or keep it to yourself? Does your religion encourage you to forgive, to look outward? <BR/><BR/>Why do we choose to dismiss religions, (the lazy man's option) than parse the religions.<BR/><BR/>To say that God does not care what religion we follow is to say that God does not care about that we think about him at all, religion being the vehicle that we tend to use to make God a reality in our lives.Finn Kristiansenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08665498433974436317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143387063018781802006-03-26T09:31:00.000-06:002006-03-26T09:31:00.000-06:00China, Vietnam, and North Korea, only the latter b...China, Vietnam, and North Korea, only the latter being arguably a theocracy in the traditional sense, routinely imprison, torture, and even execute people who merely believe in ways that don't suit those in power. This gets very little press in the West, but it's easy to find documentation. So religions don't have a monopoly on this. I agree with the earlier poster who said people just behave badly to each other. (And Turkey doesn't have a great record here even in recent years.)<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.csw.org.uk/" REL="nofollow">Christian Solidarity Worldwide</A><BR/><A HREF="http://www.prisoneralert.com/" REL="nofollow">Prisoner Alert</A><BR/><A HREF="http://www.chosunjournal.com/" REL="nofollow">Chosun Journal</A>Kathyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01624553305549700412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143386304675267572006-03-26T09:18:00.000-06:002006-03-26T09:18:00.000-06:00Though I've read most of the Koran in an English t...Though I've read most of the Koran in an English translation, I don't think it's our job in the West to interpret what the Koran means for faithful Moslems. Just as I would not take it kindly if a non-Christian tried to tell me what the New Testament meant.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me we have to determine what the standards of our own civilization are, and then stick to them. Regardless of historical practice, I think it's fair to say that no country that claims the mantle of Western civilization today advocates punishing those who change religions, or deny religion altogether, in any way at all, let alone punishing them by death.<BR/><BR/>It's not as if we don't have a dog in the fight - it very much matters to us whether most Moslems are prepared to accept interpretations of their religion that allow it to be consistent with the standards the West regards as universal -- among them the freedom to chose and exercise religion for oneself regardless of what one has previously been born to or believed.<BR/><BR/>Obviously, we are biased in favor of seeing such interpretations and in seeing such interpretations prevail.<BR/><BR/>However, being interested is not the same thing as being a party to the dispute. There's no place here, I think, for an <I>amicus curia</I> brief because the court of Moslem jurisprudence and Moselm opinion will not accept it.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the stakes are monumentous. Should moderate interpretations of Islam become accepted, we will be spared the necessity of a war with Islam <I>a l'outrance</I>. <BR/><BR/>Ann makes the point there are a billion or so Moslems. And there are several billion people who are not Moslems and have no intention of becoming Moslems. Should it become clear that the billion Moslems cannot play well with others, then the others will have to do something called self-preservation about it.<BR/><BR/>And, unless the Moslems figure that out and change <I>their</I> behavior and <I>their</I> religion, it's going to be very, very ugly. But, a lot uglier for Moslems than for the rest of us.CatoRenascihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16427183047838076366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143385182099182202006-03-26T08:59:00.000-06:002006-03-26T08:59:00.000-06:00Alleluia!Alleluia!Maryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02021039256079243778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143385109672513492006-03-26T08:58:00.000-06:002006-03-26T08:58:00.000-06:00Patience is something the Muslims have that we in ...Patience is something the Muslims have that we in the west have little of. It will take time for the enlightened view being espoused in Kabul to a find it's way to the frontier regions.<BR/><BR/>I recently saw a documentary that involved building a ski resort in the Middle East. Can you imagine the average abdul al (insert tribal affiliation here) seeing snow for the first time? I remember waking up in a compartment on a northbound Italian train with my blond wife and her sister to see several Moroccan guys with their faces pressed against the glass. They had never seen a woman uncovered and certainly had never seen blond women.<BR/><BR/>Most Muslims are not from the city but from the backwaters of wherever they come from. Immigration brings a goat herder from the hardscrabble regions of the desolate earth to the big city. All they have is what some so-called Islamic cleric has told them because someone else taught him and so on back hundreds of years.<BR/><BR/>To show how clueless the west is, Volkswagen named a model after a tribe that runs smuggling routes through the Sahara. The "Touareg" are a nomadic people that al qaeda uses, among others, to smuggle weapons, people, drugs, etc., on their caravans.<BR/><BR/>Know your enemy and how he thinks. Maybe the Europeans should find another place to go topless than the frontier beaches the Muslims populate.Davidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12429316324625420960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143384133615543752006-03-26T08:42:00.000-06:002006-03-26T08:42:00.000-06:00Case against Christian convert dismissed: report A...<B><A HREF="http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/03/26/christian_afghan060326.html" REL="nofollow">Case against Christian convert dismissed: report </A></B><BR/><I>An Afghan court has dismissed the case against a Christian convert for lack of evidence, according to a news agency report</I>bearbeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00878339252965962998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143382692931214142006-03-26T08:18:00.000-06:002006-03-26T08:18:00.000-06:00OPPOSING VIEW POINTSIbrahim B. Syed, Ph. D.<B><A HREF="http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_151_200/opposing_view_points.htm" REL="nofollow"> OPPOSING VIEW POINTS<BR/>Ibrahim B. Syed, Ph. D. </A></B>bearbeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00878339252965962998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143381745670756262006-03-26T08:02:00.000-06:002006-03-26T08:02:00.000-06:00Afghan Apostasy CaseThe issue of apostasy, when a ...<B><A HREF="http://www.azadiradio.org/en/news/2006/03/17B27179-5FE6-4381-A819-E04908362FD9.ASP" REL="nofollow">Afghan Apostasy Case</A></B><BR/><I>The issue of apostasy, when a Muslim converts to another religion, is one of the most sensitive areas of Islamic law. But there is no one authority in Islam, and the four main schools of Islamic thought differ on fundamental religious issues. So Muslims are left to decide which of a myriad of interpretations to accept on issues such as abortion, polygamy, divorce, homosexuality and, arguable the most important of all apostasy.</I>bearbeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00878339252965962998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143380306218131552006-03-26T07:38:00.000-06:002006-03-26T07:38:00.000-06:00In The Name of GodIn fact in a landmark ruling, th...<B><A HREF="http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=138426" REL="nofollow">In The Name of God</A></B><BR/><BR/><I>In fact in a landmark ruling, the Supreme Court of Malaysia ruled that conversion to Christianity by a Muslim is not a punishable offence.</I><BR/><BR/>word verification: lawjagbearbeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00878339252965962998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143379520772053002006-03-26T07:25:00.000-06:002006-03-26T07:25:00.000-06:00"I said I want to hear "vigorous debate from peopl...<I>"I said I want to hear "vigorous debate from people who know the Quran and have other interpretations." Basically, why are the Muslims with other interpretations not speaking so we can hear them? I know they exist. Journalists should seek them out."</I><BR/><BR/><B><A HREF="http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/05/Article01a.shtml" REL="nofollow">Islam & Pluralism<BR/> A Contemporary Approach</A></B><BR/><I>S. A. Rahman, former Chief Justice of Pakistan while discussing in his monograph ‘The Punishment of Apostasy in Islam’ looked “into the evidence in the Quran and the Sunnah in detail, and draws attention to the fact that the Quran is silent on the question of death as the punishment for apostasy, despite this subject occurring no less then twenty times in the Holy Book” [ibid p 93].</I>bearbeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00878339252965962998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143374407302756342006-03-26T06:00:00.000-06:002006-03-26T06:00:00.000-06:00Ann:Is it racist to say that some group of people ...Ann:<BR/><BR/>Is it racist to say that some group of people cannot be "reasoned" with?<BR/><BR/>I have met with Muslim students at the university I went to and attended their events, listened to their speakers, etc.<BR/><BR/>In order to be able to reason with someone, they must believe in reason. The crazy fantasy talk I heard from those guys convinced me they could not be reasoned with. Their handle on facts was so slim as to be delusional. Anything that didn't go along with what they <I>wanted</I> to believe was out of the question. Anything their leader said was accepted unquestionably, even when he was saying really kooky stuff.<BR/><BR/>It is probably racist to say all Muslims can't be reasoned with (race and religion are tied up pretty closely, and I think people often use the term "racism" to mean bias against ethnic groups (which can be racial or religious). But a huge number of Muslims cannot be "reasoned" with by any decent defintion of the word.Daryl Herberthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10051077067254961343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143360753400247452006-03-26T02:12:00.000-06:002006-03-26T02:12:00.000-06:00Nor should we substitute our own conception of wha...<EM>Nor should we substitute our own conception of what a god is or ought to be, based on our particular cultural norms, for what they understand their god to be, and for what they understand the relation between their god and mankind to be. </EM><BR/><BR/>I think we all spoke about this in Ann's thread about "Is Islam compatible with democracy?".<BR/><BR/>We most of us said that yes, it could be. Look at Turkey, e.g.<BR/><BR/>But that the sharia was not.<BR/><BR/>Me, I think a person has the right to believe, or not to believe in a God, religion, or the God of $$ if s/he so wishes. <BR/><BR/>If they are dissatisfied with their birth religion, they have every right to change it, and this includes from Christianity to Islam I make clear, just in case we have any bewildered Wahabbists reading this. <BR/><BR/>That people even give this situation a cultural relativist angle, is unfathomable.<BR/><BR/>No one should be killed because he changed religions.<BR/><BR/>And no country which seeks to call itself democratic, would do that.<BR/><BR/>Full stop.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>Victoriavbspurshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05808350187299599309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143360362483757162006-03-26T02:06:00.000-06:002006-03-26T02:06:00.000-06:00Usually it is Christians who fail to make such dis...<EM>Usually it is Christians who fail to make such distinctions, dipping all over the Bible, who end up doing acts or holding opinions that are, on face, somewhat illogical or in unison with what we see here with this Quran situation.</EM><BR/><BR/>And then there are us Catholics who don't really pay much mind to the Bible. :)<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>Victoriavbspurshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05808350187299599309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143357418185733042006-03-26T01:16:00.000-06:002006-03-26T01:16:00.000-06:00Balfegor - To my knowledge, in neither Islam nor m...Balfegor - <I>To my knowledge, in neither Islam nor mainline Christianity could God be considered unconcerned about the doings and existence of humanity.</I><BR/><BR/>True, but I'm quite convinced that none of the religions practiced here are earth are factual. Thus, I find any representation of God in the Old Testament, the New Testament, or the Quran, as simply a reflection of the people who wrote it.<BR/><BR/>I have no idea whether God exists or not. But if he does, he surely doesn't get too concerned about the events of man. I'm sure he has bigger things to worry about, such as creating new dimensions, creating the Grand Unifying Theory, etc.<BR/><BR/>Except for cartoons. I'm sure he cares about those!downtownladhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00043685450909516976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143351738806603432006-03-25T23:42:00.000-06:002006-03-25T23:42:00.000-06:00I've met moderate Muslims in Hyderabad, India. I ...I've met moderate Muslims in Hyderabad, India. I don't know any American Muslims.<BR/><BR/>I'm with the commenters who don't feel qualified here. I've never read the Quran and I don't know any Arabic.<BR/><BR/>For that matter, we have a real shortage of Arabic translators in America. We have an obvious need to better understand the Middle East and train Arabic speakers.<BR/><BR/>But, anyways - there are some provocative passages in the Bible that I would suggest caution us against the dangers of literalism. (I'm thinking Leviticus, and other stuff like Do Not Suffer a Witch to Live.)Aspasia M.http://www.blogger.com/profile/09466617532639178260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143351655268302032006-03-25T23:40:00.000-06:002006-03-25T23:40:00.000-06:00The extremes are always dangerous. I think there's...The extremes are always dangerous. I think there's one big problem here. We here in the west tend to think as politics and religion as two distinct things.<BR/><BR/>I don't think Islam (or the Islamists, or the extremists, or however you want to frame it)does.<BR/><BR/>To those people politics and religion are exactly the same. Period. So you are either with them or you are (going to be) dead. <BR/><BR/>Ann, I am not in any way, shape or form a racist, but I do not see a peaceful resolution here as long as the extremists control the debate. <BR/><BR/>The extreme version of Islam that demands death to an apostate is hopelessly stuck in the 7th century and cannot coexist in a rational world. We have a problem, and we need to think long and hard on how to deal with it.Gaius Arbohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11825450779013984346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143348400620770372006-03-25T22:46:00.000-06:002006-03-25T22:46:00.000-06:00Balfegor - I'm agnostic.And I'm an atheist. And?I...<I>Balfegor - I'm agnostic.</I><BR/><BR/>And I'm an atheist. And?<BR/><BR/><I>If God does exist, I'm almost certain that he doesn't care whether or not humans (one species amongst billions) on a tiny planet amongst trillions) practice one religion or another.</I><BR/><BR/>To my knowledge, in neither Islam nor mainline Christianity could God be considered unconcerned about the doings and existence of humanity. In Christianity, there's the whole "For God so loved the world, he gave them his only begotten son," etc. etc. thing. In Islam, I am on rather shakier ground, but I think Iblis gets his punishment for refusing to bow down before Mankind. Or something like that.<BR/><BR/><I>There's nothing arrogant in that. It's called reason and common sense. I'm not projecting human psychology onto the divine, when I say that God does not have human traits such as insecurity.</I><BR/><BR/>That's not the reasoning I pulled out of your original post there: "God, if he does indeed exist, would never be so insecure that he requires those who question his existence to be put to death." I read that as insinuating that if God requires that apostates be killed, it is somehow an expression of insecurity. Why would that be?<BR/><BR/>My issue here (in which I could be said to be doing exactly what I said I was uncomfortable doing in my first post up top) is that we shouldn't condescend culturally to Muslims -- even on the extremes. Nor should we substitute our own conception of what a god is or ought to be, based on our particular cultural norms, for what <I>they</I> understand their god to be, and for what they understand the relation between their god and mankind to be.Balfegorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03750287462697147777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143346763756632622006-03-25T22:19:00.000-06:002006-03-25T22:19:00.000-06:00It's not racist Ann. Islam is a religion, not a r...It's not racist Ann. Islam is a religion, not a race. And I am attacking Wahabbism, not Islam itself. There ARE moderate Muslims. They are just afraid to speak up, because they will be killed if they do.<BR/><BR/>Wahabbists are fundamentalists. They think the word of the Quran is the word of God and it is heresy to question it.<BR/><BR/>How can you possibly reason with that? They are NEVER going to change their mind. For every matter in the world, they have to go to one book to see what God thinks.<BR/><BR/>But if you're implying that I'm bigtoed towards Wahabbists, I plead guilty.downtownladhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00043685450909516976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1143346497854697952006-03-25T22:14:00.001-06:002006-03-25T22:14:00.001-06:00Downtownlad: "You can't reason with these people. ...Downtownlad: "You can't reason with these people. They are insane."<BR/><BR/>That's basically racist. You need to rethink it.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.com