I have just finished rewatching AUJ for the fifth time and there are two things with Azog which seems interesting to me and probably wasn't answered yet as I didn't find any thread connected with it. In the beginning I didn't like his character because he seemed too fake to me because of CGI and all this changing from books but now I am more inclined towards him, maybe because I was watching first move so many times.

Anyway the first interesting thing I noticed was Azog's reaction once he saw Gandalf in the tree and his words after that: leave him to me. Now he can be indicating on Thorin but it seems a little strange that he said that right after he noticed Gandalf and we also know that Azog ordered the other orc to kill Thorin. So my first question is if he was indeed thinking on Gandalf what was he trying to do with him and why? I am thinking that Gandalf was in Dol Guldur or maybe around Moria where he rescued Thrain and met Azog and maybe also Bolg during that event. There he got the map, learned that Azog is alive and inflicted a good deal of damage to the orcs. Maybe this was the reason of Azog's reaction as he was trying to revenge by slaying the wizard himself or maybe the Necromancer himself gave him an order to capture Gandalf and bring him before him.

I am also interested if we will ever hear Azog talking in English or only in the black speech. All other orcs from the Lord of the Rings spoke in English and if he will talk only in the black speech that will prevent any good guys to understand him as they don't know that language. Maybe he won't be talking at all or only his action will be important but it would be interesting to see him talking with Thorin in the same language at the end.

I haven't read the books in a while and normally mis remember them when I do quote form the books so I ahve a few thoughts and questions that some one else can jump in on:

1) How would Azog know who Gandalf 'is'?-sure he's a wizard but would Azog know Gandalf's true indentity as a Maia? In the books wasn't Sauron completely ignorant of their indentity?

If Azog wanted to go after him wouldn't he have attacked him during his many wanderings over Middle Earth?

2)The idea about Azog and Bolg in Dol Guldor sounds pretty cool, but thus far as I understand it Bolg is merely a 'spawn' of Azog not a son per se, gievn Azog seems to be more than just an Orc I can see their interactions in Dol Guldor being distinctly non canon.

3) Isn't Azog most likely to be in the Black Speech anyway? I don't have much to say.

I don't hate Azog. I never did hate him. The CGI just made him, well, like you mentioned, fake. And it just seemed like it would make more sense to have Bolg. Anyway, with all that I hear going on nowadays, Azog is okay. Having said that, I never noticed that line before. I always thought he was referring to Thorin, but the way the scene acts out, I can see where the idea that Azog could be referring to Gandalf comes from. I'll have to pay attention to that scene next time I watch it.

Sauron knew what they were. But Azog would be a fool to attack Gandalf.
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Gandalf faced down a Balrog, and the Balrog could slay a dozen Azogs all day every day. Azog may have been the head orc in Moria. . . but he knew who the REAL master was. Azog could never have taken down Durin AND driven the whole dwarf nation from their sacred homeland. No Elves would flee Moria over the awakening of Azog.

But Sauron did know what the Wizards were. He may not have been certain when they came, but after a couple centuries he would have been relatively certain, if only through deductive reasoning. Certainly he would have had full confirmation after the contests of will with Saruman.

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I haven't read the books in a while and normally mis remember them when I do quote form the books so I ahve a few thoughts and questions that some one else can jump in on:

1) How would Azog know who Gandalf 'is'?-sure he's a wizard but would Azog know Gandalf's true indentity as a Maia? In the books wasn't Sauron completely ignorant of their indentity?

If Azog wanted to go after him wouldn't he have attacked him during his many wanderings over Middle Earth?

2)The idea about Azog and Bolg in Dol Guldor sounds pretty cool, but thus far as I understand it Bolg is merely a 'spawn' of Azog not a son per se, gievn Azog seems to be more than just an Orc I can see their interactions in Dol Guldor being distinctly non canon.

3) Isn't Azog most likely to be in the Black Speech anyway?

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Certainly he would have had full confirmation after the contests of will with Saruman.

Sauron might have been able to sense Gandalf's presence and prestige as well, during one of Gandalf's many forays into Dol Guldur in the Third Age. Sauron even fled from Gandalf at one point (an incident which begat the famous 400-year-long "Watchful Peace" that was alluded to in AUJ by Elrond, although both the context and timeline were way off). Could be he sensed a fellow Maia...

I'm sure Azog noticed Gandalf though, he probably knows he was responsible for the "flaming pine cones" and the eagles arriving. Azog will most likely report back to the necromancer that a wizard is aiding them on their quest or Azog might see Gandalf leave them at Mirkwood which is why he follows them, in the DOS trailer we see Azog in Mirkwood. take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

I was watching this scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCQID4VohrY and there can be no doubt that Azog is surprised or even shocked when he noticed Gandalf because Thorin said nothing that could surprised him. And right after that he pointed his mace towards the company with the same shocking and angry face while he is watching in the same direction as a moment before. Because of that I thought that he may be referring to Gandalf who may caused him a great harm and fear. If he was thinking on Thorin wouldn't be his face triumphant and satisfied as moment before when he was talking abouth Thrain?

Azog is very arrogant and overcondifent but I doubt that he is so foolish to think that he can defeat Gandalf alone. If he was indeed working for the necromander maybe his plan was to make Gandalf unconscious and take him to Dol Guldur that way as we all know how vunerable wizards can be in Peter Jackson's view. If he was indeed ordered to kill Gandalf which I doubt there is even a greater reason for his joy as trees are falling down and it seems that all company will fall into the abys and die. That way he will be rid of both Thorin and Gandalf.

Probably Azog will speak in the black speech till the end of the movies which is interesting but also a little confusing because he cannot communicate with the other good races and if he is a chief or orcs how can he doesn't know common language while lower goblins in Goblin Town and all the others in LOTR can?

As I was watching the scene further I noticed something else. When wargs attacked they aggressively jump on the trees with dwarves, tearing their branches while Gandalf's tree which is on the one edge of the abyss is attacked only by two wargs who are not as near that aggresive. His tree begins to tilt only when other trees fall on him and why is that so if the wargs can kill Gandalf first as his tree is the most vunerable? One answer is Azog's command which is that they must leave Gandalf to him and kill all the others.

Of course all this speculations could be wrong but if we analyze the scene deeper we can get many different possibilities.

and not english, it adds to his imposing demeanor, it wouldn't have the impact if he was speaking english like the goblins in goblin town. I like how PJ shows that there is a huge difference between the goblins in the misty mountains and Azog's band of orcs. Azog and his orcs can travel in broad daylight and not fearful of straying into hostile territory, the goblins hide inside the mountains and speak english. take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

I meant, no Elves would flee Lorien and no Dwarven host would flee Moria.
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Yeah, Azog was bad, but one Azog in the midst of Lothlorien or the midst of Durin's halls when a Durin still walked them would have been one deadassed Azog. A Balrog. . . not so much. Everyone else flees, he slays at whim, unassailable by the weapons of the comparatively weak.

Agreed about the Dol Guldur forays. He would have had to have some awareness if the Power and prestiege of the Wizard, otherwise he would not have fled, merely attempted to capture him from the first. He hides from Gandalf at that first forray roughly a thousand years prior to the Fellowship timeline.

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Certainly he would have had full confirmation after the contests of will with Saruman.

Sauron might have been able to sense Gandalf's presence and prestige as well, during one of Gandalf's many forays into Dol Guldur in the Third Age. Sauron even fled from Gandalf at one point (an incident which begat the famous 400-year-long "Watchful Peace" that was alluded to in AUJ by Elrond, although both the context and timeline were way off). Could be he sensed a fellow Maia...

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No Elves would flee Moria over the awakening of Azog.

Aw come on man, he's such a bad-ass!!!

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Definitely. There is even an irritated look on Azog's face the moment when the first pinecone comes streaking down
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and bursts into flames on the ground.

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I'm sure Azog noticed Gandalf though, he probably knows he was responsible for the "flaming pine cones" and the eagles arriving. Azog will most likely report back to the necromancer that a wizard is aiding them on their quest or Azog might see Gandalf leave them at Mirkwood which is why he follows them, in the DOS trailer we see Azog in Mirkwood.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

I never saw this until you pointed it out, Old Pilgrim. However, now that you have, wow, I must say that it does very much look like that expression on Azog's face is shock and it couldn't be shock at Thorin because he sure already knows Thorin's there because he's already spoken to him. And he does have that look after Gandalf sort of shifts / stands a little in place and draws attention to himself. Wow. So how or why could Azog have known who Gandalf is?? Could it be possible he's been told about Radagast by the Necromancer? And so maybe he doesn't know, technically, that he's Gandalf, maybe he thinks he's Radagast? Unless, that scene in DOS is going to be a flashback and so Gandalf has already had a run-in with the necromancer and then he does know it is Gandalf? But I thought in AUJ he said to Radagast "Are you sure?" as if he didn't know anything about it. Aggh!! I can't wait until December. Wow wow. This is really intriguing!! I think you're onto something here, Old Pilgrim!

but I am more inclined that this wasn't their first meeting. As I already posted in the other thread I believe that they have already met in Dol Guldur where Gandalf recieved the map and keys from dying Thrain and there he also encountered orcs with Azog. If he manage to defeat them that must be a terrible shock for Azog who is so full of himself and if he was forced to run before Gandalf's fury that could make sense and also explain many things: - Gandalf is aware that Azog still lives - Gandalf's statement that the Old fortress is abandoned (since he manage to defeat the orcs who were either slain or escape) - Azog's facial expression which is shocked and angry after he discover Gandalf in the tree - Key and map which he gave to Thorin in Bag End

I believe the Necromancer is not so connected with that however he may talk with Azog afterwards and learned about Gandalf. He probably has some plans with the old wizard which may be revealed in DoS.

but I am more inclined that this wasn't their first meeting. As I already posted in the other thread I believe that they have already met in Dol Guldur where Gandalf recieved the map and keys from dying Thrain and there he also encountered orcs with Azog. If he manage to defeat them that must be a terrible shock for Azog who is so full of himself and if he was forced to run before Gandalf's fury that could make sense and also explain many things: - Gandalf is aware that Azog still lives - Gandalf's statement that the Old fortress is abandoned (since he manage to defeat the orcs who were either slain or escape) - Azog's facial expression which is shocked and angry after he discover Gandalf in the tree - Key and map which he gave to Thorin in Bag End

I believe the Necromancer is not so connected with that however he may talk with Azog afterwards and learned about Gandalf. He probably has some plans with the old wizard which may be revealed in DoS.

The more you add to this the more I am persuaded that you're right. Now that you list them together they look more and more like definite hints being dropped along the way. They also answer my questions about the way in which Sir Ian delivered certain lines - for instance, when he says to Radagast, not only that the old fortress was abandoned, but also what he says about the Necromancer, "Are you suuuurre?" I wondered why Sir Ian said it in that tone of voice. Now I'm thinking it was deliberate, and it was the tone of voice of someone who has his own knowledge of what is being discussed and is wondering perhaps if those mushrooms truly have addled Radagast's brain :-).

His having a previous run-in with Azog would also explain Gandalf suddenly moving while up in the trees, that it was a deliberate attempt to draw attention to himself, in order to re-direct Azog's attention from Thorin to himself.

And it definitely explains how Gandalf already knew Azog still lived.

Now, Old Pilgrim, since you are proving yourself to be quite an amazing detective :-) (tell me, do you read mysteries :-?), here is another puzzle - why did Gandalf share 'that look' with Balin? This is still puzzling me. If the film team wanted to convey that Gandalf knew about Azog, they could have just had a shot of Gandalf looking dubious or concerned, etc., but instead they deliberately chose to have Balin exchange the same expression with him. I can't figure out what Balin would have to do with this or how he would know Azog was still alive or why he had this sudden unspoken communication with Gandalf. Questions, questions :-)!

but I am more inclined that this wasn't their first meeting. As I already posted in the other thread I believe that they have already met in Dol Guldur where Gandalf recieved the map and keys from dying Thrain and there he also encountered orcs with Azog. If he manage to defeat them that must be a terrible shock for Azog who is so full of himself and if he was forced to run before Gandalf's fury that could make sense and also explain many things: - Gandalf is aware that Azog still lives - Gandalf's statement that the Old fortress is abandoned (since he manage to defeat the orcs who were either slain or escape) - Azog's facial expression which is shocked and angry after he discover Gandalf in the tree - Key and map which he gave to Thorin in Bag End

I believe the Necromancer is not so connected with that however he may talk with Azog afterwards and learned about Gandalf. He probably has some plans with the old wizard which may be revealed in DoS.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Just because he's supposed to be dead with a coinpurse stuck in his mouth doesn't mean he can't be bad-ass.

Seriously though, this thread brought up some interesting points. I never considered a Gandalf/Azog connection before. Now I must rewatch those scenes in AUJ! DwalinBalinKiliFiliDoriNoriOriOinGloinBifurBofurBomburThorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

This is incredible. I never noticed Azog paying any attention to Gandalf at all - now I shall have to go rewatch AUJ!

But, in seriousness, this theory is amazing. As someone who dreams up insane theories and has half a dozen headcanons, I can only adopt this one in awe at your thoughtfulness. It's almost as if this doesn't happen in DoS I will be disappointed. It makes so much sense. "I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."

I had some similar--yet not nearly as refined--thoughts on these two awhile back. Great job with this!

Adding in a bit to the load of things you've observed, I notice that Azog seems to declare some sort of word--likely in the Black Speech--that, to me, sounds a lot like "magic", although the 'c' at the end is absent, and there sounds to be more of an 'gh' in there. I'm no linguist, so unless the subtitles give an answer, I'm not sure if there is a definitive answer.

But...from this, I feel that Azog is making some connection here with the magic--lighting of the pine cones--of Gandalf. Perhaps that was his word for 'witchcraft', or something similar. Maybe he's seen it before.

Like you said, he's surprised to see Gandalf there. And it's even worse when, in Azog's final frame of the film, he looks almost afraid. Someone won't be happy. Not saying the Necromancer is the one, but Azog's definitely not out doing all of this on his own.

Athough, I'm not yet sold on the "that one is mine" being intended for Gandalf (saw it in another post). The film's edits, to me, point back to Thorin. (I also notice Balin look down, and Thorin, as this happens. Seems to indicate his realization of what's happening.)

Great job, Old Pilgrim.

Edit for second to last section of text: I just reread your other posts, Old Pilgrim, and you make a very good case for the part I'm not sold on yet. I'll keep that in mind when I watch AUJ again. For some reason the editing suggests otherwise to me, but your case is still very strong and well thought out. I really do hope that all of this is true, in some form. That look earlier in the film, with Gandalf and Balin, always stood out to me. It'd be great to see that explained.

I have never thought of being a good detective but maybe there is something in it :-) (I haven't read much mysteries but I do enjoy watching Hercule Poirot of Agatha Christie and in the last two years I have already seen all movies with Poirot who became my greatest detective. His little grey cells and psihology are just great.)

Now about that look between Gandalf and Balin. If we analyze their facial expressions further we can see that they are sad and concerned. The only reasonable explanation would be that Gandalf told Balin of his discovery regarding Azog but then again it seems strange to me that Balin didn't know about keys which Gandalf revealed in Bag End. Maybe this was his surprise and didn't want to tell anyone about it until the right moment while telling some dwarf that their greatest enemy still lives may seems urgent to him. Perhaps he choose Balin as he is the most wisest, oldest and the most reasonable in the company while Thorin or someone else may rush towards Azog without thinking anything and endanger the secrecy of their quest. Perhaps they also agreed that Balin will tell Thorin about Azog at the right moment which would be only when they reclaim their home and defeat Smaug.

Remember at Helm's deep, Legolas shot the rope holding that ladder full of Uruk-hai down? I would be willing to venture that that motion alone would have caused him to far outdo Gimli in their contest, however he still lost by one. That tells me that as per a "killing numbers match" (for lack of a better phrase) it is required to be a confirmed kill (and the ladder wasn't since he couldn't see if there were any survivors, though unlikely).

I would think that, even if Gandalf might know that Azog still lives, Balin may not, and the latter may just be more concerned that Azog might be an unconfirmed kill and Thorin's absolute insistence that he is dead goes against warrior creed in that department. Balin also strikes me sometimes as the "glass half empty" guy (given his practical and realistic but still negative comments such as "not the best nor brightest" during his speech in Bag End). I think that, unless Balin sees either the light go out of Azog's eyes or his head (unattached) on a spike, he will doubt that Azog is dead- or at least not be 100% sure about it. And the look may have reflected that.

I would honestly think that if Balin knew for sure (per Gandalf) at that point, he would have told Thorin right away, or at least in Rivendell after they were attacked by an orc pack hunting them, because that is what a responsible, trained warrior would do-report such information to his commanding officer. Withholding such information would get Balin into serious trouble with the King- cousin/friend or no, because it is vital information and withholding it could endanger the company and jeopardize the quest (as we see when Thorin is injured). I don't even think a threat from Gandalf would stop him from telling Thorin.

There is still a chance that you are right, and perhaps Balin did tell Thorin, only for Thorin to not believe him (which could also explain his "defensive" tone when he said "that filth died of his wounds long ago")

We will hopefully get some answers in DOS- probably when they have the chance to rest and recuperate in Beorn's house. Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.