I have a friend who is a monk and was on Mt Athos for 10 years. I was talking to him about zeal and Americans. He was telling me that America is a strange place when it comes to people in Church. We are to free spoken and proud about things and the zeal of American Orthodoxy is fading. With the whole "convertitius" jokes that float around, people don't see the point of wearing a head covering. He said if you were in Russia and you didn't cover your head or you wore a short skirt, you wouldn't be let into the Church. You need to know what it is you are walking into. It's God's house, He has His rules.

I don't wear short skirts. At my first liturgy, I wore one that was so long, I darn near tripped over it, and a lady grabbed my elbow just in time to keep me from keeling over.

My point was, when people don't wear the headcovering, they probably don't do it to get in your face about it. Society hasn't been that way for them since their grandparents' day. They don't associate hair with modesty, simply put. But you seem to have a bad opinion of them anyway. Sorry, not everyone is Russian or Greek or whomever. I guess only people who wear mantillas can be holy.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:06:44 PM by biro »

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My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible houseI looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

I agree, biro. Also, as I pointed out, Russian women come to the church in Vegas wearing a headcovering but showing a lot of the rest of their bodies. My bishop said he would rather them skip the headcovering and cover up the rest of their bodies. Just because a woman is wearing a headcovering doesn't mean she has covered the rest of her body.

I have a friend who is a monk and was on Mt Athos for 10 years. I was talking to him about zeal and Americans. He was telling me that America is a strange place when it comes to people in Church. We are to free spoken and proud about things and the zeal of American Orthodoxy is fading. With the whole "convertitius" jokes that float around, people don't see the point of wearing a head covering. He said if you were in Russia and you didn't cover your head or you wore a short skirt, you wouldn't be let into the Church. You need to know what it is you are walking into. It's God's house, He has His rules.

But you seem to have a bad opinion of them anyway. Sorry, not everyone is Russian or Greek or whomever.

I didn't give an opinion and I didn't say to be Russian or Greek. I said in Russia. Was talking about the difference between America and other Orthodox countries. In Russia in today's time, this century and you'll see a sea of head coverings, not in America for whatever reason. To say you don't need a head covering is a statement of selfish pride. Do what the Bible says, simple as that.

"But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. 6 For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head." 1 Cor 11

So if people want to complain and say it's to old fashioned and don't want to cover their head, shave it.

My comment was not meant to point fingers at anyone. Sure there are different cultures out there and most people in my parish are from Russia, Latvia, Estonia and the countries that in some was called "The Soviet Union". I am sure that there are differences between a ethnic parish in small Norway compared to a not so ethnic parish in hugely USA or Canada. Both in dressing and attitude.

It was just an opinion and not an attempt to judge anyone.

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I will not be posting or participating here anymore.They claim this is an Orthodox Christian forum.Well, it is not!

In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction. Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering. One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf.

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers. What is the reason for that?

Personally, I like the modesty of headcovering, and the reasons for doing it in Thomas' article also make sense. I haven't really looked into it much or discussed it with any clergy in my parish yet, but could see myself covering in church and during prayer once I'm Orthodox.

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Live in South/East Auckland, Franklin or North Waikato regions of New Zealand? Interested in Orthodoxy? Need transport to an Orthodox Church? Want to meet others? Please send me a PM

"You have made us for yourself, Lord; and our hearts are restless until they rest in You" - St. Augustine (my patron saint)

In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction. Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering. One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf.

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers. What is the reason for that?

Personally, I like the modesty of headcovering, and the reasons for doing it in Thomas' article also make sense. I haven't really looked into it much or discussed it with any clergy in my parish yet, but could see myself covering in church and during prayer once I'm Orthodox.

In my Antiochian parish it's similar to what you described. There are women that cover the whole time, or immediately prior to communing, but there are also some that commune without covering. Nobody seems to care about whether others are covering or not.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction. Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering. One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf.

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers. What is the reason for that?

Such behaviour I've noticed in Coptic churches but I know some Orthodox women in Poland also wear a head scarf only for receiving the Holy Sacraments (confession, Communion) or only for the receiving the Holy Eucharist. No idea why. But e.g my priest asked me to wear a skirt at least when I receive the Communion, so again, it's connected with the Mysteries. And what's interesting, he said that skirt (of course not mini, but a modest one) was more important and then any veil wasn't necessary. It's something to show and feel you're feminine as God created you with your own features and tasks (I don't know if I explained it correctly).

In my Antiochian parish it's similar to what you described. There are women that cover the whole time, or immediately prior to communing, but there are also some that commune without covering. Nobody seems to care about whether others are covering or not.

That's the practice of Polish and Serbian parishes I know.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 05:14:08 AM by Dominika »

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

Stop your Amish propaganda, please.

Amish? Propaganda?

Yeshuaisiam practices a mix of Baptist theology, Orthodox ecclesiology, and Amish mentality. It's not wrong per se however he should not present his views as Orthodox ones in this section (and a few more).

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Wear it, don't wear it. Acquiesce to your conscience. If you are moved to wear a covering, do so; if not, practice humility in other ways which are not distracting to other parishioners.

The cultural import of "head covering" is no longer really in place. Empty ritual if practiced out of compulsion; rich and full ritual if practiced out of genuine movement from within by God.

That's all you need to know.

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere? Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist. Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc. Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

Actually, did not the Christian Orthodox ladies, including the Theotokos, observe the covering of their hair for the above two reasons? And did not the Amish come way after the Ancient Faith?

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

That doesn't make any sense. Why whould praying in home instead of a church make an exception to the rule?

Aeh..that was not what I meant at all. No I am not crazy, if that is what you really are asking me.

Our homes are blessed and are considered "domestic churches."

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

I should have known this about the home. On the other side, it is so easy for me as a male to tell a female how to dress. Because I do not wear a full dress at sundays in church and even if I should have.

Maybe the best thing would be tonight to pray for the converts that do face this problem and ask The Lord to guide them. He can. Nothing is impossible for Him.

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I will not be posting or participating here anymore.They claim this is an Orthodox Christian forum.Well, it is not!

Because I do not wear a full dress at sundays in church and even if I should have.

Just in case people get confused, in Norwegian, 'dress' means suit

Full dress can also refer to a formal military uniform.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I agree, biro. Also, as I pointed out, Russian women come to the church in Vegas wearing a headcovering but showing a lot of the rest of their bodies. My bishop said he would rather them skip the headcovering and cover up the rest of their bodies. Just because a woman is wearing a headcovering doesn't mean she has covered the rest of her body.

Lol. I have seen this plenty often. I could have told you more about her underwear than her hair style!

But most of the women at our church who wear a head covering also dress modestly as well.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

When before your icon corner, especially during morning and eve. prayers you certainly could cover your head as an act of piety IMHO. Jewish

Women cover their head during the lighting of Sabbath candles in the home..

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 06:45:07 PM by Marc1152 »

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere? Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist. Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc. Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)

Yeah we get it, you're better than people who take head-coverings seriously. You'll fit in great with the self-appointed convertitis brigade on this board.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 07:47:52 PM by William »

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Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere? Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist. Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc. Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)

Yeah we get it, you're better than people who take head-coverings seriously. You'll fit in great with the self-appointed convertitis brigade on this board.

Actually, I have no problem with them. I think they're beautiful. I'd say a slight majority of the women in my church wear them. It's a beautiful sight to behold, I think. My wife is Episcopal, but if she ever decided to wear one when she comes to church with me, I'd have no problem.

So..nice try, but no. I just oppose theologically armwrestling someone into feeling that it's necessary or preferable.

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere? Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist. Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc. Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)

Yeah we get it, you're better than people who take head-coverings seriously. You'll fit in great with the self-appointed convertitis brigade on this board.

Actually, I have no problem with them. I think they're beautiful. I'd say a slight majority of the women in my church wear them. It's a beautiful sight to behold, I think. My wife is Episcopal, but if she ever decided to wear one when she comes to church with me, I'd have no problem.

So..nice try, but no. I just oppose theologically armwrestling someone into feeling that it's necessary or preferable.

I didn't say you opposed them, just that you're very self-righteous about people who think "it's necessary or preferable."

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Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

Actually, did not the Christian Orthodox ladies, including the Theotokos, observe the covering of their hair for the above two reasons? And did not the Amish come way after the Ancient Faith?

I believe the women of the Dunkard Brethren wear a head covering at all times so they are never uncovered if they should happen upon an occasion to pray.

In my opinion, if the purpose of wearing a veil is modesty, then wearing one in an environment where people would find it odd/not understand it would attract more attention and therefore defeat the purpose.

Everything religious attracts every kind of attention in every Western country. I don't want to get into discussion about whether women should cover their head or not but this is really a rather bad argument for anything considering how secularized Western countries are.

I don't see how the cause of it has any relevance if the end result is still the same. If it's common practice to do so then do it if you feel it's appropriate. If it's not common practice then take that into account when making a decision, particularly one based on modesty.

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I can no longer cope with the misogynism, bigotry, homophobia and racism here and I have given up this forum. Lord have mercy.

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

Weak sexist jokes.

If you attended our parish, you would see it isn't a joke at all. Several people show up late...

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

Weak sexist jokes.

If you attended our parish, you would see it isn't a joke at all. Several people show up late...

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I see you did not know Fr. Valery. More's the pity... You must imagine it said with love, warmth, and a sparkle in the eye, rather than... however you were imagining it.

That is the problem with forums like this, we do not see each other eye to eye when we write, discuss and express feelings..Even the best and wellmeant advice can turn into anger in 1-2-3 online. Sign of the times...

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I will not be posting or participating here anymore.They claim this is an Orthodox Christian forum.Well, it is not!