UK troops out of Iraq soon if no immunity deal

LE

John Hutton, the Defence Secretary, is ready to pull UK troops out of Iraq at the end of this month unless the Iraqi government agrees a new immunity deal for British soldiers who shoot to kill, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.

A legal wrangle between the Ministry of Defence and the Baghdad governments means British involvement in Iraq could end sooner than expected.

Mr Hutton is privately furious that Nouri al-Maliki, the Iraqi Prime Minister, has not yet agreed a deal to give British troops "copper-bottomed" legal protection from prosecution when their existing United Nations mandate expires at midnight on 31 December.

British officials in Baghdad are locked in talks with the Iraqi government aimed at agreeing a legally binding promise that troops would not be prosecuted if they killed someone while defending themselves.

The MoD insists that even without a new deal, pre-existing agreements would provide some legal protection to British troops who get involved in combat.

But officials concede that those arrangements will not give the same assurance as an explicit Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) between the UK and Baghdad.

Mr Hutton believes that without such a pact, British forces could face an unacceptable risk of prosecution if they were forced to kill in self defence.

As the tense negotiations continue, Mr Hutton has warned: "I won't hesitate to pull them out. They have to be protected and the way things stand at the moment they will not be." ...

Clanker

John Hutton, the Defence Secretary, is ready to pull UK troops out of Iraq at the end of this month unless the Iraqi government agrees a new immunity deal for British soldiers who shoot to kill, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.

A legal wrangle between the Ministry of Defence and the Baghdad governments means British involvement in Iraq could end sooner than expected.

Mr Hutton is privately furious that Nouri al-Maliki, the Iraqi Prime Minister, has not yet agreed a deal to give British troops "copper-bottomed" legal protection from prosecution when their existing United Nations mandate expires at midnight on 31 December.

British officials in Baghdad are locked in talks with the Iraqi government aimed at agreeing a legally binding promise that troops would not be prosecuted if they killed someone while defending themselves.

The MoD insists that even without a new deal, pre-existing agreements would provide some legal protection to British troops who get involved in combat.

But officials concede that those arrangements will not give the same assurance as an explicit Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) between the UK and Baghdad.

Mr Hutton believes that without such a pact, British forces could face an unacceptable risk of prosecution if they were forced to kill in self defence.

As the tense negotiations continue, Mr Hutton has warned: "I won't hesitate to pull them out. They have to be protected and the way things stand at the moment they will not be." ...

LE

It is unusual for an idiomatic phrase to have such a literal derivation as this. 'Copper-bottomed' originally described ships that were fitted with copper plating on the bottom of their hulls. The process was first used on ships of the British Navy in 1761 to defend them against wood-boring insects and to reduce infestations by barnacles.

On 18th August 1780, The Edinburgh Advertiser published an extract of a letter from a Falmouth sailor to his father:

"My dear Father, We sailed from Spithead, on Monday 7th, and on Thursday 10th, fell in with the Nymph, one of the proudest frigates of France, copper-bottom, and on the look-out."

It wasn't long before the phrase began to be used figuratively, to refer to anything that was reliable and trustworthy. Washington Irving, in his work Salmagundi, 1807, included this line:

"The copper-bottomed angel at Messrs. Paff's in Broadway."

Over'? Did you say 'over'? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no!â

War Hero

So what gives a politician the bare faced gall to go and use a term like "copper bottom" whith anything they do in their jobs....

I, in my modern educated ways still think HMG are after any excuse to get our troops out of Iraq, either to free up numbers for Afghan or to free up much needed money.... Or in my own cynical view a combination of the above..... Its got sweet FA to do with HMG wanting to protect our soldiers

LE

So what gives a politician the bare faced gall to go and use a term like "copper bottom" whith anything they do in their jobs....

I, in my modern educated ways still think HMG are after any excuse to get our troops out of Iraq, either to free up numbers for Afghan or to free up much needed money.... Or in my own cynical view a combination of the above..... Its got sweet FA to do with HMG wanting to protect our soldiers

You may be right but if there is even the remotest possibility that our troops could face prosecution for lethal force used in defence then they should be pulled out. Furthermore I don't like the self-defence tag, does that mean that if the soldier mistakenly believes that someone is armed or a suicide bomber and takes them out that he could still be prosecuted by the Iraqis?
Look how many times in NI the dead armed terrorist is suddenly surrounded by 'rioting' women and children and lo and behold after they have been cleared away all evidence of weapon or gunfire is completely removed from the 'poor innocent bystander' who was a pillar of his community and a gentle 'man of God'.

ADC

It's an old Naval reference - Wooden Ships that had copper bottoms lasted better than those without and were therefore more dependable!

PRISTINAE VIRTUTIS MEMOR

Discipline: Discipline is the sacrifice of a man's comforts, inclinations, safety, even life for others, for something greater than himself. It is the refusal to be the weak link in the chain that snaps under pressure.

LE

So what gives a politician the bare faced gall to go and use a term like "copper bottom" whith anything they do in their jobs....

I, in my modern educated ways still think HMG are after any excuse to get our troops out of Iraq, either to free up numbers for Afghan or to free up much needed money.... Or in my own cynical view a combination of the above..... Its got sweet FA to do with HMG wanting to protect our soldiers

LE

in my modern educated ways still think HMG are after any excuse to get our troops out of Iraq, either to free up numbers for Afghan or to free up much needed money.... Or in my own cynical view a combination of the above..... Its got sweet FA to do with HMG wanting to protect our soldiers

BBC News channel/online, were quoting Pa Broon as not ruling out a straight re-deployment of current Iraqi based British troops and equipment straight to Afghanistan. I can't remember exact details but I seem to recall a figure of 2000 troops quoted and his thick-headed belief that the public wouldn't mind/care!

Fecking unbelievable, he must have a bloody good set of comedy script writers supporting him.

Old-Salt

Furthermore I don't like the self-defence tag, does that mean that if the soldier mistakenly believes that someone is armed or a suicide bomber and takes them out that he could still be prosecuted by the Iraqis?

Law is never clear-cut. Intent and belief certainly come into it. Look at how many armed response coppers have got off after turning an unarmed civilian into a 9mm-holed colander. Even if prosecuted, I think Iraq would see enough sense to make sure any trial was a whitewash.

War Hero

So what gives a politician the bare faced gall to go and use a term like "copper bottom" whith anything they do in their jobs....

I, in my modern educated ways still think HMG are after any excuse to get our troops out of Iraq, either to free up numbers for Afghan or to free up much needed money.... Or in my own cynical view a combination of the above..... Its got sweet FA to do with HMG wanting to protect our soldiers

LE

Furthermore I don't like the self-defence tag, does that mean that if the soldier mistakenly believes that someone is armed or a suicide bomber and takes them out that he could still be prosecuted by the Iraqis?

Law is never clear-cut. Intent and belief certainly come into it. Look at how many armed response coppers have got off after turning an unarmed civilian into a 9mm-holed colander. Even if prosecuted, I think Iraq would see enough sense to make sure any trial was a whitewash.