I have read many times that you are healed when you treat for 2 months past symptom resolution, however, I have also read success stories about members being healed but still have symptoms.

Usually the left over symptoms are considered to be caused by something else. Thyroid, adrenals, ext.

Also, left over symptoms, (in my case) are supposedly left over from the damage done by the disease. The damage can be exasperated by inflammation. Your symptoms can be from inflammation and not the actual disease. So, How do you know???

There is also the conflict of either being "cured" or being in remission. How do you know which?

The other thing that I have been questioning lately is advise given to new members that doesn't fully add up which is the following; *You MUST see an LLMD that had ILADS training. These doctors treat with antibiotics and usually don't have much training using herbs. There are LOTS of people that have been healed with herbs either self treated or found an alternative doctor to treat them with herbs. These doctors are not trained by the ILADS, they may even be Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors. These doctors can help you and cure you. IMHO you do not NEED to find an LLMD unless you are set on being treated with abx.

I guess what brought up these thoughts in me is my experience. I have been in treatment for about a year now. My TCMD says that I have completed a sufficient protocol to treat Lyme. All other tests are coming up normal (except thyroid which we are continuing to work on). He says I am "cured". So I ask him if I am cured why do I still have symptoms. He says I have left over tissue and nerve damaged done from the disease and adding back in sugar (fruits and such) have increased my inflammation which caused the damaged tissue to give me symptoms.

Above all else, no person can say that someone has been in treatment long enough to eradicate these bacteria. We all have a LOT of things going on in our bodies that can prevent or slow down our healing. Stopping treatments too soon is the number one reason for relapsing.

At this point in time, there is no way to know when or if someone can completely rid themselves of the Lyme bacteria, or even just get rid of all of the Lyme bacteria that is capable of reproducing. We simply don't have the tests that can tell us this for sure. There is one test that says it can, but I haven't seen it touted the way it should be if it really worked, so I'm still on the fence about it - but man do I ever wish it was true!!

For the sake of this discussion, I feel we have to define "cured" and "remission" - most of us understand that remission means that "it" - in this case, Lyme- can reactivate. So let's assume that cured means that Lyme can't come back at all - it will take a reinfection to have the infection again.

Under those circumstances, I believe we can say that without appropriate testing, we don't know that anyone has ever been cured as there is no way to confirm this. It can only take a very small amount of Lyme bacteria to keep a person sick, much lower levels than our current testing can pick up on.

ILADS has said that in order to get lasting relief (remission) that treatment needs to continue for 2 months past the resolution of symptoms - not resolution of some symptoms, all symptoms. This is confusing for many, as we can be left with nervous system symptoms (minor tingling or numbness) that just need more time to finish healing, but there is a difference. If a person stops treatments for, say 6 - 9 months, and the symptoms do NOT worsen, but continue to improve, then it was the right choice to stop treatments. But if those small neuro symptoms start to increase, then obviously the treatments were stopped too soon.

Some people would prefer to stay in treatment a few more months, possibly rotating some protocols (pharma and herbal/natural) through to be sure that they have healed as much as they are going to. That's a personal choice that we each may face and should make based on what we know and what our doctors have to say.

I am likely the biggest offender in the confusion over these types of statements: "*You MUST see an LLMD that had ILADS training. These doctors treat with antibiotics and usually don't have much training using herbs. There are LOTS of people that have been healed with herbs either self treated or found an alternative doctor to treat them with herbs. These doctors are not trained by the ILADS, they may even be Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors. These doctors can help you and cure you. IMHO you do not NEED to find an LLMD unless you are set on being treated with abx. "

I say different things to different people, depending on their understanding, openness to alternative treatments, and what they are hoping for. Is it absolutely necessary to see an ILADS trained doctor if you are going to heal from these infections? I was healed by a TCM practitioner that had never knowingly treated any of these infections before, so no. I did however have to do a LOT of the work in finding protocols, and figure out "where do we go from here?", when I was herxing and when I needed to detox more. She was a massive help in keeping my body functioning well while I healed though! She treated all kinds of issues that would come up as I was healing from these infections and I couldn't have done it without her. The nearest LLMD to me was a 15 hour drive each way. I was too sick to travel that far.

There are some doctors that are capable of being open minded enough to just follow Dr. Burrascano's paper on how to treat these infections, but they are not skilled enough- have enough experience to recognize herxing, or understand what combination of abx or herbs or whatever to help a person heal when they can't tolerate the "regular" protocol. Or, when there are serious complicating issues, like MCAD, MTHFR mutations or other issues that we can have.

As to your question about inflammation - Lyme is an inflammatory infection. It creates inflammation in between our cells. If you have any questions about how your diet is affecting the amount of inflammation you have - drop those foods back out of your diet for a week - you'll know, believe me.

And, I want to say this again - no one can look at a person and say "you've been in treatment long enough, you're healed". If you have symptoms (other than a few very minor tingling or numbness in patches), then you likely need more treatment. Inflammation is not one of those minor symptoms.

The good news? You can easily finish your treatment on your own if necessary. Many here do that.Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBVNew Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

wow- sorry for the long post, everyone!Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBVNew Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

My doc (LLMD) says no one is cured, it is always remission and any major event in your life can start up the bacteria again.

My hardest chore in my healing is being patient. I have rarely been sick, never even had the flu. Hangovers that I deserved in my hussy days many moons ago, but it is difficult to know that this is not a cold and will not just run its course and be gone in a week. I expect to get better each day. Then I get apprehensive and will cause myself stress. This will exacerbate my symptoms.... So, more than antibiotics, herbals, diet or detox my huge prescription is patience, with a capital P.

Thanks for posting that, PeteZa. Having been sick my whole life, I often forget how hard this is to have patience with it all. I love being here with all the different perspectives!!Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBVNew Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

Traveler, you are saying that my doctor is wrong then. And also the ONLY symptoms that can be left over are "minor tingling OR numbness." Anything else and you are not healed and need to continue treatment?

What about this, you get yourself to heal as much as possible and then work on your immune system to take care of the rest. Yes you are in remission and not healed. If your immune system is damaged again, you may relapse. I could be at this point.

With this are you saying that your only left over symptoms were "minor tingling or numbness"? I believe Chappell had more than that for left over symptoms and now she is healed.

I am really not trying to be argumentative, but I truly believe that there are none to very few absolutes with this disease. It is really scary to read some of these absolutes on this forum.

"And, I want to say this again - no one can look at a person and say "you've been in treatment long enough, you're healed". If you have symptoms (other than a few very minor tingling or numbness in patches), then you likely need more treatment. Inflammation is not one of those minor symptoms."

What you are saying directly contradicts what my doctor is saying. Very scary for me!!!

Also, there may be other things contributing to lingering symptoms like inflammation. MANY things cause inflammation.

Again, I do not want to be disrespectful in any way. I am so grateful for this forum and for the time and help given here. I just have trouble with any absolutes regarding Lyme disease.diagnosed October 2014. I am pretty confident that I have been infected since the summer of 2006. I also have hashimoto's/hypothyroid and SIBO. IgM 18+ 23-25 IND 28+ 30- 31++++ 34IND 39++ 41+++ 45- 58++ 66- 83-93++IgG 41 IND

How to tell between Lyme symptoms and symptoms from a ton of other things. Mycoplasma, EBV, Candida, Thyroid, adrenals ext.

Bottom line is there is really no way to tell for sure.diagnosed October 2014. I am pretty confident that I have been infected since the summer of 2006. I also have hashimoto's/hypothyroid and SIBO. IgM 18+ 23-25 IND 28+ 30- 31++++ 34IND 39++ 41+++ 45- 58++ 66- 83-93++IgG 41 IND

The emerging research on this bacteria, in the last couple of years, shows a few things:

- we don't have a combination of antibiotics to sterilize (kill all lyme bacteria) - as of this year we have a candidate drug cocktail but it is not proven on people, just in the test tube

- the body's immune system does not "remember" being sick, so unlike measles , you will not develop immunity

- the tiniest bacteria that remains alive somewhere in your body can make you relapse as if you were bitten again by a new tick for the first time !

- think of the goals of this bacteria: it needs to colonize you from head to toe, so that the first healthy tick that comes and bites you will get sick with lyme and thus it will transmit the disease to another animal and complete its life cycle. For this, it has to impair your immune system thus allowing itself to create a systemic infection. If your immune system would be a bit more powerful, it will gain the edge. So the only thing you need to do is tilt the balance in its favor. You can do this with immune-stimulant and anti-inflammatory herbals. That's why these herbs work better than ABX.

- does "cure" mean you don't have symptoms ? No. Cure IMHO means you removed the bacteria from your body and there is no chance of relapse. So as of 2015 there is no cure to this disease. But hey, TB does not have a cure either, after being "cured", patients can relapse any time. So this does not come as a shock...

- can you live a nice life as if you don't have any problem at all ? Yes you can, so having a "cure" for this particular disease is not as important as one may think.

"If your immune system would be a bit more powerful, it will gain the edge. So the only thing you need to do is tilt the balance in its favor. You can do this with immune-stimulant and anti-inflammatory herbals. That's why these herbs work better than ABX."

There are other things to help your immune system also, diet is a good example. Also, this is where LDN would come into play. I have been on that for about a year now and I believe it is helping the "immune-stimulant" side of things.

According to this philosophy you don't have to have complete symptom resolution before stopping treatment. There is a time where you can switch your efforts if you think you have the bacteria counts low enough.

Thanks for your reply.diagnosed October 2014. I am pretty confident that I have been infected since the summer of 2006. I also have hashimoto's/hypothyroid and SIBO. IgM 18+ 23-25 IND 28+ 30- 31++++ 34IND 39++ 41+++ 45- 58++ 66- 83-93++IgG 41 IND

Dancingbear*- This topic comes up a few times every year in this forum. The dynamics of this illness serve to generate thinking that culminates with the asking of such questions. Therefore your question is very relevant and thoughtful.

I first want to say that I agree with the assumption that once infected, that it is likely that there will always be a presence of Borrelia in the body. However this is an almost irrelevant consideration, as the LD syndrome often has many other microbial components in addition to Borrelia. Furthermore, some physicians understand that the microbial component is not necessarily the most important factor when attempting to nullify the sometimes protracted and relapsing nature of the illness.

The predominate opinion of the forum members seems to be that the presence of Borrelia constitutes a health status somewhere between remission and doom! Well.... I don't agree with those assessments, as they are pessimistic in nature, and do not fit ALL scenarios.

There are many healthy people that test quite positive for the presence of live Borrelia in their body for years, and yet have never had an immune collapse that allowed for the development of debilitating symptoms.. Is such a person in remission? Oops, we quickly discover that logical and coherent communication breaks down at the point that we realize that the presence of Borrelia is not the all-determinative factor in LD. The word "remission" is pessimistic in outlook, and suggests that the patient is on thin ice. I certainly understood remission in that way. My suspicion was confirmed when I Googled and perused the plethora of medical definitions that are available online.

There are many people that have been "cured" from long term LD, and are symptom free years later, yet would test quite positive to the presence of live bacteria!

Lest I be misunderstood, I DO sincerely believe that the concept of "remission" is OFTEN applicable to the experience of those with LD, but not merely because of the presence of pathogens. Since there will always be some pathogenic presence in the body, the other factors will determine whether an illness manifests or not. What are these other factors? The people in this thread rightfully get the idea that immune functionis key. If immune deficits have not been addressed with lifestyle corrections and effective insightful treatment, then yes, the patient will surely be on a rollercoaster getting sick again until the majority of the pathogens are again "nuked" back into the next "remission". By the way, I am not necessarily referring to anything that Traveler has said here. I am just interacting with popular notions about "remission" and LD.

It may take years to become totally debilitated and depleted, and it may take years to fully recover, but it is possible. You will get well when your total person is able to bear the demands of the sum total of all stressors in your life. For many people the treatment approach of "nuking" with "remission" is the only approach in their knowledge. Only a highly competent physician would be able to accurately address your more specific questions. Dancingbear*- I wish you the best!!!

I have laid out my 2 cents here, but Dr. J. has written an article that is more helpful than anything that I could ever say. His illustrations make the point.

My thoughts of being healed are, no symptoms. If symptoms are still present, chances are a pathogen is still present. In order to be healed(no symptoms) one must take out biofilms, any infections, toxicities, and damaging emotions(the mind is always listening, you think sick you will be sick) to be able to function.

If all of these are removed sufficiently, the body can take back control and re-balance the organs and kill off bacteria, on its own. No drug or supplement can do this. According to LymeMD, the best drug combinations can only kill up to 85% of bacteria-in a test tube. There is no way to know what percentage of bacteria are killed in the body. Someone who has less stress, infections, and toxicities will kill off more bacteria much faster than anyone who is very toxic or stressed. 85% in a person, could only be accomplished in a better case scenario. If any percentage is assumed on someone, it will not apply to everyone. Chronic disease is different for everyone. Some people respond well to treatment and others do not, its not the drug or herb combinations. It is the strength of the body that controls how sick we are.

If other infections are still present after treatment, borrelia most likely will be too. It takes the body on top of treatments to get rid of lyme disease. If the body hasn't finished off all of the infections, chances are ALL of the infections are present. Some will just be in a higher number than others.

No one can tell you if treatment is sufficient. Only your body.In a healthy body, all symptoms will disappear. Nerve damage, brain damage, rashes, inflammation, etc can all be healed. The body is smart, it can heal itself very well.

I think one of the biggest mistakes people make are time related. Western blot and ELISA tests for lyme disease measure immune system reactivity. If your body is fighting it, the results will at some point come back positive(in most cases, the tests aren't great). In fact you should expect at some point to have no symptoms and test positive. To achieve no symptoms and to be rid of an infection, your body will have to do its own fighting. That is what the tests can show. I also think we can still have an infection and no symptoms. It takes a long time to be rid of an infection.

If the body can stay functioning at a high enough gear for long enough I believe 100% cure can be achieved. That's a big catch though, we have no idea when or truly if the body gets rid of all the bacteria. It may take 2 years for the body to finish the infection AFTER being symptom free. If during this time anything overly stressful happens or the body functioning becomes depressed, the infection will persist unseen.

Two months symptom free, in my opinion, may be a good enough time to finish with abx or bacteria killing herbs(idk), but it is not enough time for the body to heal all of the damage. I personally think the body fights infections much longer past becoming symptom free.

Another thing to remember is the no one gets sick with a healthy body. A healthy body can send out immune cells soon after a pathogen enters the body, killing all of them is easily possible. A sickly or toxic body will not be able to do this. One thing I would like to point out about borrelia is-it does not reproduce quickly. A healthy body should be able to take out all of them upon infection, not months or years later after the infection is well established.A body toxic with heavy metals, chemicals, junk foods, plastics, etc will not be able to function at its highest. Anyone who is capable of achieving remission, in this state with, with abx is bound to relapse because the body probably could not finish off the infection.

After a chronic illness state, the body will have persistent symptoms, nerves take especially long to heal. A healthy diet can greatly bring down inflammation. On top of that, if all of the blocks like toxicities are removed, inflammation will go away entirely. So any inflammation caused symptoms should totally disappear. There is certainly more to say about which symptoms are most likely to persist because of damage vs an actual active infection. This will vary person to person.

Hope this was helpful!I have had RMSF, babesia, an Lyme at least 5 years. I treat myself naturally with the oversight of an ND.I write a blog to chronicle my journey, have you seen it?http://itoldyouitslyme.blogspot.com/

Don, I was so happy to see that you commented on my thread. I have read what you have done for your daughter. She is so lucky to have you! You are a plethora of information. Thank you for your comments.

I am not sure when I was infected by Lyme, but that has never been my only issue. It did take me years to get to the point of disease. Probably 15 years total. I was more than likely infected with LD 8 years ago. My health was already going south, little by little.

From what you are saying it will more than likely take me years to fully recover. Not from just LD, but from all the “stressors” in my life. The key question then becomes, at what point during my recovery can I stop “treating/nuking” the LD? According to what you wrote and the article by David Jernigan the answer is NOT 2 months after symptom resolution! My doctor (and now me thanks to your insight) believes that now is the time to switch gears from nuking to focusing on immune deficits even though I still have some symptoms.

Thank you so much. I now feel comfortable switching gears and following “doctor’s orders”. Prior to this thread I did feel like I was on “thin ice”, scared that if I stopped treatment I would surely get worse and worse until I could not function.

ItisLyme, Thank you for your response to this thread. I agree with your statement, “It is the strength of the body that controls how sick we are.” According to my doctor, I have good constitution, so I WILL heal! You also say that in a healthy body, all symptoms will disappear. I agree, it is just the time line that is in question. So again, thank you for your very thoughtful response. It is helpful for me and has helped to take away my fear of not treating long enough and becoming very ill again.

DBdiagnosed October 2014. I am pretty confident that I have been infected since the summer of 2006. I also have hashimoto's/hypothyroid and SIBO. IgM 18+ 23-25 IND 28+ 30- 31++++ 34IND 39++ 41+++ 45- 58++ 66- 83-93++IgG 41 IND

I'm so sorry, DB, I got side tracked yesterday with chores here at the house and by the time I was done, I was literally too tired to think straight!! I didn't want to risk giving you false or confusing information - and now I'm glad I didn't!! Don posted!! LOL! Don used to moderate with me, so I get to tease him a bit!!Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBVNew Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

This might be a post for a different thread, but in regards to this statement:

"If your immune system would be a bit more powerful, it will gain the edge. So the only thing you need to do is tilt the balance in its favor. You can do this with immune-stimulant and anti-inflammatory herbals. That's why these herbs work better than ABX."

I was curious how exactly immune-stimulants work. Assuming that the immune-stimulant is an herb, so you ingest the herb, and it tells your immune system to hurry up and produce more white blood cells or something along those lines? I thought your body regulated that on its own by identifying an infection and then sending signals to the immune system or lymphatic system to produce an adequate amount of killer T cells or whatever to fight off the infection. How do herbs come in to play to help the immune system?

I was curious how exactly immune-stimulants work. Assuming that the immune-stimulant is an herb, so you ingest the herb, and it tells your immune system to hurry up and produce more white blood cells or something along those lines?

Yes. Let's take this research paper from Sweden, for example, about Cat's claw, a common herb used by lymies, and its effects on the immune system of mice and humans:

"Female W/Fu rats were gavaged daily with a water-soluble extract (C-MED-100™) of Uncaria tomentosa supplied commercially by CampaMed at the doses of 0, 5, 10, 20, 40 and 80 mg/kg for 8 consecutive weeks. Phytohemagglutinin (PHA) stimulated lymphocyte proliferation was significantly increased in splenocytes of rats treated at the doses of 40 and 80 mg/kg. White blood cells (WBC) from the C-MED-100™ treatment groups of 40 and 80 mg/kg for 8 weeks or 160 mg/kg for 4 weeks were significantly elevated compared with controls (P<0.05). In a human volunteer study, C-MED-100™ was given daily at 5 mg/kg for 6 consecutive weeks to four healthy adult males. No toxicity was observed and again, WBC were significantly elevated (P<0.05) after supplement. Repair of DNA single strand breaks (SSB) and double strand breaks (DSB) 3 h after 12 Gy whole body irradiation of rats were also significantly improved in C-MED-100™ treated animals (P<0.05). The LD50 and MTD of a single oral dose of C-MED-100™ in the rat were observed to be greater than 8 g/kg. Although the rats were treated daily with U. tomentosa extracts at the doses of 10–80 mg/kg for 8 weeks or 160 mg/kg for 4 weeks, no acute or chronic toxicity signs were observed symptomatically. In addition, no body weight, food consumption, organ weight and kidney, liver, spleen, and heart pathological changes were found to be associated with C-MED-100™ treatment."www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874199000707

I thought your body regulated that on its own by identifying an infection and then sending signals to the immune system or lymphatic system to produce an adequate amount of killer T cells or whatever to fight off the infection. How do herbs come in to play to help the immune system?

Yes there is for example an antigen transporter protein system (C4b) that gets to the place in the lymph where germinal centers are born and presents the antigen, that's the place where long-term humoral immunity is developed.

Well what if Borrelia will somehow mess up with this transport system (C4b binding protein) and at the same time infect the lymph nodes, producing lots of inflammation exactly where these germinal centers are produced. I'd say chances are this mechanism of signaling will malfunction and the body will not be able to mount a serious immune response.

Furthermore, sadly, this messing with the immune system greatly affects its performance against any pathogen, not just Borrelia, so you become immune-impaired (not as much as in case of AIDS, for sure) , enough to get some normal flora inhabitants like Candida, or some intra-cellular viruses you acquired in childhood (EBV, CMV, Coxackie, etc) to start replicating again out of control. In the study mentioned below, they have shown mice infected with Borrelia and receiving an influenza vaccine, no longer develop immunity to influenza virus.

Anyway, at least for the moment there is scientific evidence that taking anti-inflammatory and immune-stimulant chemicals (herbs/whatever), over a LONG period of time, may help in some way overcome this chronic state of the infection.

DB~Why does it sound to me like your doc is basing more on the length of time with treatment, i.e. 1 year completes the "required"? Do you still have symptoms that have not been healed? Aren't thyroid issues a sign of autoimmune still not balanced? (Thyroid peeps don't jump all on me for that statement. I am merely posing the question). I understand the fear of under treatment & relapse--such guinea pigs are the patients of LD!

mpost~Thank u for those articles. I need to pour over them more, but finding the anti-inflammatory & DNA enhancing of cat's claw interesting (revisiting this one from years ago when the info was not as prolific).

The statements of herbs working better than abx-it's a shame to me that these are always pitted against each other. Each have their own merit.

Also the statement that "no one gets sick with a healthy body" is a bit bold. There have been plenty of healthy people stricken with Lyme, Ebola, Aids...It would be lovely to think that no Superman cryptonite exists, but even with the most robust health, the body can be poisoned.

I'm surprized at the lack of thyroid knoledge from some LLMDs. Anyone with lyme and low thyroid should demand thyroid antibody testing, TPO and TgAb for Hashimoto, (and TSI for hyper-Graves).

Once (if) these develope, then you are dealing with autoimmune thyroid that usually has a mind of its own once it starts. This is not the same as hypothyroid without the antibodies, which heals, one the cause is "fixed". Many issues can cause auto immune thyroid- infections, leaky gut (with or without gluten issues), candida, many reasons.

Astro - my husband is on meds for hypo. When I recently checked old lab results from a few years ago - the antibodies (I'll have to check again - but I think it was TPO) - were showing, but not very high...does that have any significance?Moderator, Lyme ForumSymptoms started April/13; Buhner's protocol May 15/14 to July24/14Igenex pos. July 3/14 Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14Amox 1000mg x3 + Probencid Aug. 29/14; added biaxin 500X2 Sept. 26/14 Disc. amox and added Ceftin Nov. 20th. Jan/15 pulsing Tindamax ; disc biaxinBuhners bart herbs added Dec/14; ABX/Buhner herb break Apr/2015

The antibody limit level is a wierd thing. Over the limit and they call it autoimmune dysfunction. How the limit level # came about, I have no idea.

High antibody count is obiously autoimmune (triple digits over the limit level).

Low antibodies that are present but under the limit, seem to move around in some people.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thyroid info aside, I find this post (healed?) an interesting topic. Most LLMDs are only guessing, they dont have some mighty upperhand knowlegde as some almost seem to assume, these people are only human making their best medical judgement.

I do belive that long term lyme can leave you behind and damaged- once autoimmune begins there may be no clear end or feeling great again for some people. Other illnesses did this, like polio for instance, once that infection was gone the damage remained.

HI Happyjo~ I believe my doctor is basing his diagnosis on the treatment I have completed, not necessarily the time I have treated. Also, on the progress I have made. I still have some symptoms, but they are much less and farther between. I am able to live and function at I believe 90% most days. I still have some bad days though. My doctor is still treating regarding my thyroid. We are working on getting my T3’s at optimal levels. All other thyroid levels are good. I am also continuing to take LDN 1.5mgs nightly. I believe this is getting my immune system in working order. I have the MTHFR mutation and will continue to treat that. I also will continue to use an infrared sauna 2-3 times per week.

Going forward I believe that my current doctor is done treating me. I, however, am not done. I am switching to another practitioner to help me rebuild my immune system and to help me create maximum health. But I am done “killing bugs”. After posting this thread and getting all of the wonderful replies I now feel confident that this is the road I need to follow. Prior to posting I was feeling very scared and apprehensive, which is why I posted. I have read that you can “kill bugs” too long and this can have a negative effect on your recovery. I believe I am at that point.

I hope that I can post in the near future of my success in being “cured”. Time will tell. If I am going down the wrong path at this point, what I gain is still more than what I lose.diagnosed October 2014. I am pretty confident that I have been infected since the summer of 2006. I also have hashimoto's/hypothyroid and SIBO. IgM 18+ 23-25 IND 28+ 30- 31++++ 34IND 39++ 41+++ 45- 58++ 66- 83-93++IgG 41 IND

I have followed this thread with great interest because I, too, am aware of people who stopped treatment based upon the advice of their LLMD's while they still had some mild symptoms yet I am very much aware of ILADS recommendations.

I think the decision to stop treatment is a very personal one and was not inclined to share my personal views on the subject.

That said, this statement intrigued me:

Dancingbear* said...I have read that you can “kill bugs” too long and this can have a negative effect on your recovery.

Dancingbear*, would you kindly direct me to the place(s) you read this? I would like to read more, obviously.

Thanks so much and best wishes to you moving forward!!! Please keep us posted - we're all rooting for you!Moderator - Lyme ForumJul 14 started what proved to be inadequate treatment ala PCP day after nymph deer tick biteSept 14 met LLMD - clinically dx'd with Lyme due to Bells Palsy - confirmed via CDC positive WBFeb 15 transitioned off abx and started full Cowden protocol along w/LDNJuly 15 started transition to Buhner's Lyme, Babesia & Bartonella protocolsmild PNS symptoms except when herxing