"Ma fellow Morons, chemtrails are what made Moronia great. They are a symbol of your freedom to chew guns and carry gum, or whatever. If you want more, you can have more - that's why you are called moreons, and if any goddam treehuggin Democrat, Mexican or Muslim tells you otherwise, send him back to where he came from. That's freedom. God help America."

Ted Cruz, as the last speaker of the convention, just dissed TRUMP SOUNDLY!!!!!!!!!! Cruz was expected to endorse Trump as all speakers tonight did. NOPE! When at the end of the evening Cruz was expected to say nice things about the great word done --- yada yada yada, Everyone was to expecting him to say "vote for Trump," Cruz, Cruz said vote for (small pause) whomever you chose.

Boo's for Cruz

It may not seem like a big thing but the way it was done was the BEST political snub I have seen in 70 some odd years and I don't remember the first 20-30 years. GO TED!!!!

Your wishful thinking is faith-based. In reality the precautionary principle should apply to geoengineering? Injecting coal fly ash particles into the atmosphere is a risk for the environment and public health.

We havebeen injecting coal fly ash into the atmosphere for about 6000 years, in ever-increasing quantities. During that time the life expectancy of homo sapiens has tripled. So it can't be doing more harm than good.

Trump is a puppet for the new world disorder. Supported by the illusionati and knights exemplar. They plan to overrun the planet with golf resorts to cater to controllers of media and sports commentary. Especially snooker, the sport of satan and his lizard minions.

We havebeen injecting coal fly ash into the atmosphere for about 6000 years, in ever-increasing quantities. During that time the life expectancy of homo sapiens has tripled. So it can't be doing more harm than good.

What? Clandestine geoengineering activity emerged in the 90's... The technology didn't even existed before that period. Currently it is likely killing the bees and its a probable cause of the rise of lung/asthma (COPD) diseases.

Trump is a puppet for the new world disorder. Supported by the illusionati and knights exemplar. They plan to overrun the planet with golf resorts to cater to controllers of media and sports commentary. Especially snooker, the sport of satan and his lizard minions.

That's a conspiracy theory... Killary is probably more likely a high ranked CFR adept than Trump!

Trump is likely to have been secretly funding this as part of a plan for world domination, now he has the resources of US secret budget and CIA there will be no stopping him.

I don't have evidences that Trump is more involved in clandestine geoengineering activity than Gates and Obama. Probably the CIA don't want Trump at the presidential office for this particular reason...

Trump is a puppet for the new world disorder. Supported by the illusionati and knights exemplar. They plan to overrun the planet with golf resorts to cater to controllers of media and sports commentary. Especially snooker, the sport of satan and his lizard minions.

That's a conspiracy theory... Killary is probably more likely a high ranked CFR adept than Trump!

The conspiracy of conspiracy theorists to conspire against the conspiracies they describe is the most prominent of all.

The catastrophe would be to continue clandestine geoengineering activity until it trigger climatic havoc. Calling global warming a hoax is risky and provocative. Unlike Obama, Weather Modification may not be Trump's priority.

I think Trump might appoint Batman as the chemtrails advisor, and get him with his bat mobile monitoring environments all across the world just in case they are using the wrong brand of mind altering chemicals that make people think differently than him. I heard Hillary preferred the Xmen to do that though, its the main campaign difference.

I appreciate the sense of humor on this thread and everything, but I'd like a more scientific discussion on geoengineering prohibition. I think its time for opening the debate and investigate the issue seriously.

It is clear that arrogance, a disease so heinous and destructive has infected this post. Clearly the myth that only the liberal left are intelligent and have science to back them while conservatives are faith based morons makes me want to barf.

The liberal left has been completely overtaken by the corporate globalist elite, who teach them that you either agree with global warming, vaccines, common core, cancer research, medical industry and pharmaceutical sciences or you are retarded. Each one is a fraud and yet is government supported.

EACH ONE.

It makes me sick to my stomach that "persons" who called themselves "intellectual" are in fact complete idiots who don't know or can not learn the truth because their ego's and paid for education can not be wrong, how could they be - they paid top dollar for this "knowledge". Complete load of hog wash and indoctrination contemplation that will lead you to the fact that you either get really depressed with the reality of their folly but often instead will pray liberals win so they can keep up their fantasies.

Well guess what buttercups, fantasy just became totally lame, and reality is global warming is simply a ploy to transfer wealth from North America to Asia by forcing unreasonable regulations that will drive industry out of business, and of course usher in trillions of dollars in fraudulent carbon taxes that goes directly in to the globalist elite's pockets - liberals are too stupid or arrogant to accept this lie so they go along with it hoping to get a fake job that can pay the tax no problem.

Vaccines, filled with endocrine disrupting substances that stop hormones from communicating. Never had fertility clinics before, now we do - Why? Vaccines, the aluminum has built up so much in these females that the pituitary's hormonal signal can not be detected by the ovary to release an egg. If it is happening in women you can bet it's happening in men. Chemtrail are full of aluminum and aluminum is an endocrine disrupting substance. Also stops testicles signals to the brain -thus confused boys - all population control but liberals will say VACCINES WORK - PERIOD there is no discussion - complete drones and retards.

Common Core = retard schools

Cancer is cured - Cannabis oil cures cancer, liberals can not accept it - can not accept cannabis cures cancer - only chemo and death and pushing never ending research donations. All Fraud. 3 months on Cannabis oil stage 4 cancer is gone. More fraud - more doctors driving nice cars, in big houses, and their job - murder.

All fraud and these people think they are assets to the community - all are parasites - time to rid ourselves of all this corruption.

Real doctors, surgeons after accidents, heroic medicine is what they call it - that I am pro and we need.

the rest - especially the psychotropic medicines, they're one of the most heinous chemicals allowed to be ingested by humans. Every single mass shooting, the shooter on psychotropics - or now muslim, because 'muslims" were not treated well. All liberal permitted activities that will soon come to an end.

This sick breed has been allowed to propagate far too long, protected - now it's time for the "balancing" effect to take place - look at the stock market - already "balancing itself back to normal"

Everything has changed, nothing is going to be the same again, no matter how hard the left tries. No matter how hard the left tries.

I don't think it is at all reasonable to break scientific prowess or intellect into a conservative vs liberal dichotomy. I know and respect many scientists who are socially/politically conservative, and I know many liberals who have the scientific understanding of a 6-year old. I also know many liberal scientists and a few conservative morons. That said, there appears to be a strong influence of anti-intellectualism in conservatism recently--one reason that I have changed from considering myself "conservative" to considering myself "moderate."

As both an "intellectual" and a "person" I am offended that you have labeled me a complete idiot. There are many claims and opinions in your post, some of which I agree with, and some of which I don't. So there is plenty of opportunity for discussion. Therefore, I (as a moderator of this forum) would recommend to you (as a new member) that you will find this forum much more rewarding if you use it as a platform for discussion, rather than for posting rants.

I consider myself open minded, and up for discussion on any topic. I am here both to learn and to teach, so I will freely confess that which I don't know, will admit when I have been shown to be wrong, and also take the opportunity to share what I do know, challenge what I feel is wrong or misguided, and try to understand why those I disagree with hold their views.

Please, do remember that this is first and foremost a science forum, so you will find that most of the members here value evidence-based approaches and hypotheses that are falsifiable. This is not a place for doctrine, so all are free to challenge even the best established scientific theories; but they must be challenged in the language and philosophy of science.

Also, we ask that our members refrain from insults and ad hominem attacks. It is totally fine to say that claims are wrong (especially if you have evidence to back yourself up), but calling other people (members or not) idiots, morons, fools, retards, or worse is not helpful and not acceptable. Of course, this also works the other way: mods will step in to protect you from abuse as well. I think we have done a good job keeping this forum civil for many years.

It is clear that arrogance, a disease so heinous and destructive has infected this post. Clearly the myth that only the liberal left are intelligent and have science to back them while conservatives are faith based morons makes me want to barf.

The liberal left has been completely overtaken by the corporate globalist elite, who teach them that you either agree with global warming, vaccines, common core, cancer research, medical industry and pharmaceutical sciences or you are retarded. Each one is a fraud and yet is government supported.

EACH ONE.

It makes me sick to my stomach that "persons" who called themselves "intellectual" are in fact complete idiots who don't know or can not learn the truth because their ego's and paid for education can not be wrong, how could they be - they paid top dollar for this "knowledge". Complete load of hog wash and indoctrination contemplation that will lead you to the fact that you either get really depressed with the reality of their folly but often instead will pray liberals win so they can keep up their fantasies.

Well guess what buttercups, fantasy just became totally lame, and reality is global warming is simply a ploy to transfer wealth from North America to Asia by forcing unreasonable regulations that will drive industry out of business, and of course usher in trillions of dollars in fraudulent carbon taxes that goes directly in to the globalist elite's pockets - liberals are too stupid or arrogant to accept this lie so they go along with it hoping to get a fake job that can pay the tax no problem.

Vaccines, filled with endocrine disrupting substances that stop hormones from communicating. Never had fertility clinics before, now we do - Why? Vaccines, the aluminum has built up so much in these females that the pituitary's hormonal signal can not be detected by the ovary to release an egg. If it is happening in women you can bet it's happening in men. Chemtrail are full of aluminum and aluminum is an endocrine disrupting substance. Also stops testicles signals to the brain -thus confused boys - all population control but liberals will say VACCINES WORK - PERIOD there is no discussion - complete drones and retards.

Common Core = retard schools

Cancer is cured - Cannabis oil cures cancer, liberals can not accept it - can not accept cannabis cures cancer - only chemo and death and pushing never ending research donations. All Fraud. 3 months on Cannabis oil stage 4 cancer is gone. More fraud - more doctors driving nice cars, in big houses, and their job - murder.

All fraud and these people think they are assets to the community - all are parasites - time to rid ourselves of all this corruption.

Real doctors, surgeons after accidents, heroic medicine is what they call it - that I am pro and we need.

the rest - especially the psychotropic medicines, they're one of the most heinous chemicals allowed to be ingested by humans. Every single mass shooting, the shooter on psychotropics - or now muslim, because 'muslims" were not treated well. All liberal permitted activities that will soon come to an end.

This sick breed has been allowed to propagate far too long, protected - now it's time for the "balancing" effect to take place - look at the stock market - already "balancing itself back to normal"

Everything has changed, nothing is going to be the same again, no matter how hard the left tries. No matter how hard the left tries.

One difference between liberal and conservative is liberal, by definition, is more willing to try new things, while conservative, by definition, is content to do things with a long track record. In that respect, the well worn path of the conservatives tends to be supported by more data. This does not mean that new things, with less data are wrong, just that more data makes it easier to draw supported conclusions. To level the field, Liberalism uses emotions and politics to make their limited data look better than it actually is.

For example, common core education has become more about teachers teaching students how to do well on the common exams, rather than teaching students the basics skills needed for good learning habits. The result is tests scores look better; optics, but with more illiteracy and students more likely to memorize and use emotions to get their way. Conservatives tend to prefer to teach the test proven basics of reading, writing and arithmetic; foundation, while still allow experimental teaching methods by local and regional schools and teachers. This way innovation has space to root, while not prematurely forcing all students to conform to a poorly thought out innovation just to appear modern.

Unilateral geoengineering activity is a elitist science driven by scientific materialism to engineer the planet without complete knowledge of the consequences and risks of this technology for human health and the environment.

Unilateral geoengineering activity is a elitist science driven by scientific materialism to engineer the planet without complete knowledge of the consequences and risks of this technology for human health and the environment.

Possibly- but since you have never shown any evidence that it is happening, it doesn't matter.

That's an interesting suggestion.Which direction?Are you saying that Ignorance of natural weather patterns and atmospheric physics combined with people knowingly telling lies about condensation trails produce the deluded belief that mass geoengineering via some poorly defined thing called "Chemtrails"is actually a real thing

All I'm saying is that Trump will end the criminal activity of unilateral geoengineering: http://chronicle.su/2017/01/16/trump-promises-end-of-chemtrails/ (http://chronicle.su/2017/01/16/trump-promises-end-of-chemtrails/)

That's an interesting suggestion.Which direction?Are you saying that Ignorance of natural weather patterns and atmospheric physics combined with people knowingly telling lies about condensation trails produce the deluded belief that mass geoengineering via some poorly defined thing called "Chemtrails"is actually a real thing

All I'm saying is that Trump will end the criminal activity of unilateral geoengineering: http://chronicle.su/2017/01/16/trump-promises-end-of-chemtrails/ (http://chronicle.su/2017/01/16/trump-promises-end-of-chemtrails/)

I think that news story is not correct. If it is, shame on Donald. But, I don't see any of the tweets ascribed to him in his feed...

Clandestine geoengineering activity seems to have intensified since Bush/Obama were elected. What do you think Trump is going to do? Is a reform of the CIA possible to prohibit geoengineering?

Apparently Trump is a Big Alex Jones fan and a 9-11 truther- So maybe he also believes in the whole chemtrial thingy(whatever that is); But, I doubt he´ll be able to do that much about the CIA, he might try, it was afterall the CIA that drove the Russian hacking story. But that is all basically because too many big military corporations and the CIA also have a vested interests in keeping tencions between Russia and America high, so they can sell arms to Poland along with the other nations in the area.

All in all I have no idea what Trump will do about chemtrials or the CIA involvement in it- if there even is any: Surely it would be the Air force more then the CIA. JFK tried to destroy the CIA, but I dont think Trump will.

Clandestine geoengineering activity seems to have intensified since Bush/Obama were elected. What do you think Trump is going to do? Is a reform of the CIA possible to prohibit geoengineering?

They had this very discussion:- Alex Jones on the Joe show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhueGQHTU-o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhueGQHTU-o)

That's not a discussion, it's a rant.There doesn't seem to be any actual evidence involved- just some DJ's uninformed opinion.

Until someone actually shows that there is any actual geoengineering happening, there's no real point in this thread.Trump's opinion of it will be the same as it is of everything else: "Can I get votes out of this?"

Clandestine geoengineering activity seems to have intensified since Bush/Obama were elected. What do you think Trump is going to do? Is a reform of the CIA possible to prohibit geoengineering?

They had this very discussion:- Alex Jones on the Joe show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhueGQHTU-o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhueGQHTU-o)

That's not a discussion, it's a rant.There doesn't seem to be any actual evidence involved- just some DJ's uninformed opinion.

Until someone actually shows that there is any actual geoengineering happening, there's no real point in this thread.Trump's opinion of it will be the same as it is of everything else: "Can I get votes out of this?"

:D there is no rant there.

This is a RANT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGgN-uk5o9w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGgN-uk5o9w)

Quite frankly, I think you're the one that should provide evidences that this is NOT happening.

That's not how science works. There are plenty of very reasonable explanations of contrails that follow from scientific theories, and are very consistent with observations. If you think you have a better explanation, then you have to provide evidence that your explanation is better.

That's not how science works. There are plenty of very reasonable explanations of contrails that follow from scientific theories, and are very consistent with observations. If you think you have a better explanation, then you have to provide evidence that your explanation is better.

"Chemtrails" are most likely highly dispersed condensation aerosols. This class of aerosols has been developed for drug delivery purposes.

Also, you are the one making the extraordinary claim so you are the one who needs to produce evidence.Judging by past experience, the first thing you need to do is find out what evidence means in this context.Here's a hint; so far you have provided precisely zero evidence of any geoengineering on anything but a tiny experimental scale.

Also, you are the one making the extraordinary claim so you are the one who needs to produce evidence.Judging by past experience, the first thing you need to do is find out what evidence means in this context.Here's a hint; so far you have provided precisely zero evidence of any geoengineering on anything but a tiny experimental scale.

Define "tiny experimental scale". Geoengineeringwatch.org is not BS, it documents the organized assault on atmospheric weather happening on a global scale. You have an attitude problem to ignore evidences from alternative (independent) media sources.

Also, you are the one making the extraordinary claim so you are the one who needs to produce evidence.Judging by past experience, the first thing you need to do is find out what evidence means in this context.Here's a hint; so far you have provided precisely zero evidence of any geoengineering on anything but a tiny experimental scale.

Define "tiny experimental scale". Geoengineeringwatch.org is not BS, it documents the organized assault on atmospheric weather happening on a global scale. You have an attitude problem to ignore evidences from alternative (independent) media sources.

You keep saying there is evidence.Why not just post that evidence?In place of evidence you cite web pages that spout dross.The issue isn't that they are independent or alternative.The problem is that, like you, they don't seem to understand what evidence is.

The "tiny experimental scale" might as well in this context mean the total project costs less then a million dollars.Or that it was a short duration thing to see what happened- then it was written up and not done again.Or a whole lot of other possible variations.

The point is that you can't provide any evidence of any geoengineering at all- on any scale- that I need to worry about checking if it fits a definition.

Show us evidence of geoengineering, then we can discuss whether it's tiny or experimental.

It is well known that the aliens who forged Obama's birth certificate and planted toxic moss from Uranus on Trumpf's head, spend the night hours pissing out of the windows of their silent, invisible flying saucers just for the fun of creating the next ice age so they can breed mammoths in Birmingham and Make America Great. Come on, BC, face the Truth. We are doomed/saved/inconsequential.

You keep saying there is evidence.Why not just post that evidence?In place of evidence you cite web pages that spout dross.The issue isn't that they are independent or alternative.The problem is that, like you, they don't seem to understand what evidence is.

The main problem is that military planes are dispersing condensantion aerosols over our heads, under our noses and hidden in plain sight. Failure to acknowledge this "evidence" of clandestine geoengineering activity is a serious political, environmental, and public health issue.

Quote from: Bored chemist

The "tiny experimental scale" might as well in this context mean the total project costs less then a million dollars.Or that it was a short duration thing to see what happened- then it was written up and not done again.Or a whole lot of other possible variations.

You have absolutely no idea what you're baffling about. Unilateral geoengineering activity is happening on a global scale, and this has been confirmed by multiple reports and documentaries over the Internet.

Quote from: Bored chemist

Show us evidence of geoengineering, then we can discuss whether it's tiny or experimental.

It's not my job.

My job is to educate you on the risks and potentially harmful effects of clandestine geoengineering activity.

You keep saying there is evidence.Why not just post that evidence?In place of evidence you cite web pages that spout dross.The issue isn't that they are independent or alternative.The problem is that, like you, they don't seem to understand what evidence is.

The main problem is that military planes are dispersing condensantion aerosols over our heads, under our noses and hidden in plain sight. Failure to acknowledge this "evidence" of clandestine geoengineering activity is a serious political, environmental, and public health issue.

Quote from: Bored chemist

The "tiny experimental scale" might as well in this context mean the total project costs less then a million dollars.Or that it was a short duration thing to see what happened- then it was written up and not done again.Or a whole lot of other possible variations.

You have absolutely no idea what you're baffling about. Unilateral geoengineering activity is happening on a global scale, and this has been confirmed by multiple reports and documentaries over the Internet.

Quote from: Bored chemist

Show us evidence of geoengineering, then we can discuss whether it's tiny or experimental.

It's not my job.

My job is to educate you on the risks and potentially harmful effects of clandestine geoengineering activity.

All you have done there is make statements.Saying "Trump eats unicorns" doesn't make it true.Nor does saying "geoengineering is happening" make it true.Either show some real evidence or admit you don't have any.

And, for the record, since you are the one making the claim; it damned well is your job to provide the evidence.If you don't understand that about science, you are not in a position to educate anyone.

All you have done there is make statements.Saying "Trump eats unicorns" doesn't make it true.Nor does saying "geoengineering is happening" make it true.Either show some real evidence or admit you don't have any.

And, for the record, since you are the one making the claim; it damned well is your job to provide the evidence.If you don't understand that about science, you are not in a position to educate anyone.

All you have done is 'ignore' scientific evidences and hide under your mama skirt afraid to face the reality of geoengineering. Trump or Obama aren't idiots. They know damn well the existence and purpose of (unilateral) geoengineering is to alter the climate on a global scale. I feel like repeating myself.

So, rather than evidence you have posted insults.Do you think that's going to convince anyone?

I'm not ignoring scientific evidence.I'm ignoring nonsense.That paper is an example of nonsense.It starts by stating "Since the late 1990s tanker jets have been spraying particulate matter into the troposphere with no disclosure of the chemical compositions which mix with the air people breathe".

If it was science (rather than nonsense) it would explain why they believe such a weird notion.It shows some lovely pictures of cirrus clouds- which have been documented since antiquity- and claims- again with no evidence- that they are pictures of some sort of spray pattern.That is nonsense, unless you can show how they travelled back in time to spray them for people to paint before teh invention of aircraft.

So, go on: explain it.How are there pictures of these "spray patterns" from before there were planes to spray them?

Of course Herr Fuhrer Trumpf eats unicorns, and Kim Jong-un doesn't defecate. Don't you read the propaganda? Typical denier. Just because something is arrant nonsense with no rhyme, reason or basis in fact, doesn't excuse you from believing it! If it's in print, it must be true.

Very few painters managed to produce realistic clouds before Constable, who studied meteorology. The sudden, anachronistic appearance of realistic clouds in his later career is quite at variance with his contemporary Turner and can only be due to time-travelling CIA agents (remember the technique was described by H G Wells but the CIA moved his birth date for disinformation) spraying cumulus and stratus over an English landscape where none had been before.

Quote

One of the most expressionistic and powerful of all his studies is Seascape Study with Rain Cloud, painted about 1824 at Brighton, which captures with slashing dark brushstrokes the immediacy of an exploding cumulus shower at sea.

Hey! I can get people to believe in complete bullshit! The question is, should I use this discovered talent to run for the US Presidency or Chairman of the IPCC? Heck, why not both? Watch this space, folks!

OK, so, since you think that John Constable painted a picture of a CIA tanker in 1824, I think we can all conclude that you have precisely no idea what you are talking about.

You have a talent for disforming my quotes into nonsense.

No.You write nonsense.I point it out.

Your claim that the CIA travelled in time to produce "chemtrails" for Constable to paint, well before the invention of aeroplanes, was stupid anyway.It would have stayed stupid whether I pointed it out or not.

Hey! I can get people to believe in complete bullshit! The question is, should I use this discovered talent to run for the US Presidency or Chairman of the IPCC? Heck, why not both? Watch this space, folks!

You have shown that you can convince someone who already believes in chemtrails to believe complete bullshit.How much of a talent is that?

At least enough to become President of the USA, it seems. Maybe Pope, an Archbishop, or First Minister for Scotland? There are enough mugs out there to swing any public election if you are prepared to tell Big Lies.

You seem to confuse cloud condensation with "condensation aerosols". The latter mimick the effect of cloud condensation. So, it is normal that most people confuse both phenomenons.

So you agree with me that only "special" people can see the difference.Well, that would explain a lot. *Incidentally, do you know that a cloud is an aerosol andcaused by condensation?So, what you are saying is that on one hand we have aerosols of condensate and on the other hand we have condensation aerosols.

If you understood just a little bit more science, perhaps you would see why you are talking nonsense.Of course, if you understood about evidence, that would also help.

Water vapor doesn't aggregate to form a extruded trail. This is evidence of the chemical nature and presence of an "aerosol"being injected in the troposphere. I suspect you have no idea what is a highly dispersed aerosol...

Curiously, the Stanford guys seem to have used a hugely complicated piece of kit to discover something my friends found back in the 1960s at Birkbeck College with very simple crystallographic equipment. Not having a linac or the ability to make complex computer models, they simply compared the transforms of Voronoi polyhedra with faint diffraction maxima and determined that liquid water was ordered over a range of about 5 molecules.

Well, as a former art student, let me first say that Constable "Cloud Study" is far from depicting a highly dispersed aerosol being injected in the troposphere. Constable artworks are very good illustrations of a typical cirrus cloud, but this is NOT comparable to a chemtrail.

Well, as a former art student, let me first say that Constable "Cloud Study" is far from depicting a highly dispersed aerosol being injected in the troposphere. Constable artworks are very good illustrations of a typical cirrus cloud, but this is NOT comparable to a chemtrail.

You are just being silly.You posted the link that says things like "He has called for a multi-phase plan to fund research and conduct real-world testing within 18 months"and "A White House report on climate change research submitted to Congress in January called for the first time ever for research into geoengineering."and so on- all of which are talking about stuff that may be done in the future.And you say "geoengineering activity started after 9/11."

So you have said they are going to start doing it, and they already started doing it.Well- make up your mind.In particular, don't try to pretend that I made that claim.The record is in the thread and it shows that you are the one saying that they both started 20 years ago and are starting now.

You don't seem to understand that nobody has been doing any significant experiments on geoengineering.You have presented no evidence that they have.

The record is in the thread and it shows that you are the one saying that they both started 20 years ago and are starting now.

That is correct. Either admit now the proven existence of clandestine geoengineering activity or continue ignoring reality. Do you really expect them to admit openly the existence of such a program ??Stop being silly...

You haven't offered me any evidence.Labelling it as "clandestine" is a scam.It's like me saying "There are clandestine unicorns all over the place- but you can't see them because they are clandestine."

There have been a few small scale trials but nothing on a big enough scale to make any difference.If I'm wrong you should be able to prove it.The programme you suggest would need vast resources and very obvious infrastructure- notably a lot of tanks + sprayes fitted to planes.Show me pictures of them.Show me the invoices for themShow me something that is actually evidence.If you next post isn't real genuine evidence (and I don't mean some shitty web page of a video of some bloke saying he saw a cloud and mistook it for something else, or whatever) I'm going to ask the mods to close this thread since, in failing to provide answers, you are making the forum look bad.

That is a lie and you know it. I have posted more than enough supporting evidences in this forum. Your circular reasoning is not going to help your case. Please admit the existence of a hidden solar geoengineering program or continue acting silly.

So, still not got any evidence.Why not just post it and prove that I'm the one who is being silly?Oh- I forgot- it's because you haven't any valid evidence, and you know it.NB pleas don't post evidence that coal fired power stations put dust in the air- we already know that.Also, don't post pictures of clouds unless you can show that they are something other than normal clouds- so, only post pictures of clouds that someone has flown through, sampled, and found something other than dirt and water.Also, don't post videos of someone saying "This is possible" and pretend that it is evidence of the thing being done.

It's good that this person actually went through the trouble to get some data for his study. That being said, I see some inherent weaknesses in it. The article states that coal fly ash particles are filtered in power plants so that they do not escape into the air. However, I find it very doubtful that the filters are 100% efficient. It's possible that some amount of coal fly ash still escapes from power plants and contaminates rainwater. I don't recall the actual quantity of contamination being revealed in the study, but rather only elemental ratios.

Was the rainwater contamination significant or only trace? Can it be explained by residual power plant emissions or is the contamination too high for that? Is it possible to eliminate contamination from other sources such as volcanic ash, vaporized micro-meteoroids, and automobile exhaust as explanations? Are the absolute levels high enough to pose a health risk? Those are important questions that chemtrail proponents need to investigate scientifically if they want to persuade others.

Another issue is that the elemental ratios presented do sometimes differ significantly one from another. As an example, the ratio of sulfur-to-barium appears to be more than ten times higher in the coal ash leach water sample than in the San Diego rainwater sample. The boron-to-barium ratio is also about ten times higher in the leach water than the rainwater. The most concerning data, however, are the enormous range of the Internet rainwater values: the ratio of aluminum-to-barium differs by a factor of hundreds throughout the samples. The coal fly leach data is even worse, sometimes varying by a factor of more than 100,000. You can't come to much of a meaningful conclusion with such a highly variable data set. Chance alone can make two widely-varying data sets overlap, especially given that water has a finite solubility for different substances to begin with.

The big challenge that chemtrail proponents need to meet is to show that barium (or other) rainwater contamination comes from aircraft specifically. It needs to be shown that there is a correlation between aircraft flight times and locations and specific kinds of rainwater/air contamination. Alternative sources of contamination, such as power plants, need to be eliminated. Even if all of this is done, it still would not demonstrate that the substances in the contrails of these aircraft are put there specifically to engineer the weather.

It's good that this person actually went through the trouble to get some data for his study. That being said, I see some inherent weaknesses in it. The article states that coal fly ash particles are filtered in power plants so that they do not escape into the air. However, I find it very doubtful that the filters are 100% efficient. It's possible that some amount of coal fly ash still escapes from power plants and contaminates rainwater. I don't recall the actual quantity of contamination being revealed in the study, but rather only elemental ratios.

The difference between the deliberate injections of metal oxides particles in the troposphere and the accidental escapeof coal fly ash is in the mechanical method used for dispersing the trace metals.

Quote from: Kryptid

Was the rainwater contamination significant or only trace? Can it be explained by residual power plant emissions or is the contamination too high for that? Is it possible to eliminate contamination from other sources such as volcanic ash, vaporized micro-meteoroids, and automobile exhaust as explanations? Are the absolute levels high enough to pose a health risk? Those are important questions that chemtrail proponents need to investigate scientifically if they want to persuade others.

Trace elements of Aluminium and Barium oxides in rainwater is a evidence of controlled solar geoengineering using metal oxides particulate matter.

Quote from: Kryptid

Another issue is that the elemental ratios presented do sometimes differ significantly one from another. As an example, the ratio of sulfur-to-barium appears to be more than ten times higher in the coal ash leach water sample than in the San Diego rainwater sample. The boron-to-barium ratio is also about ten times higher in the leach water than the rainwater. The most concerning data, however, are the enormous range of the Internet rainwater values: the ratio of aluminum-to-barium differs by a factor of hundreds throughout the samples. The coal fly leach data is even worse, sometimes varying by a factor of more than 100,000. You can't come to much of a meaningful conclusion with such a highly variable data set. Chance alone can make two widely-varying data sets overlap, especially given that water has a finite solubility for different substances to begin with.

The big challenge that chemtrail proponents need to meet is to show that barium (or other) rainwater contamination comes from aircraft specifically. It needs to be shown that there is a correlation between aircraft flight times and locations and specific kinds of rainwater/air contamination. Alternative sources of contamination, such as power plants, need to be eliminated. Even if all of this is done, it still would not demonstrate that the substances in the contrails of these aircraft are put there specifically to engineer the weather.

The difference between the deliberate injections of metal oxides particles in the troposphere and the accidental escapeof coal fly ash is in the mechanical method used for dispersing the trace metals.

Trace elements of Aluminium and Barium oxides in rainwater is a evidence of controlled solar geoengineering using metal oxides particulate matter.

Never forget that solar geoengineering is patented technology! :)

"The difference between the deliberate injections of metal oxides particles in the troposphere and the accidental escapeof coal fly ash is in the mechanical method used for dispersing the trace metals."And again, you have made the assertion that this is being done- but have provided no evidence."Trace elements of Aluminium and Barium oxides in rainwater is a evidence of controlled solar geoengineering using metal oxides particulate matter."No, it's possibly evidence of uncontrolled dispersion. It's much more likely to be evidence that the filters in power stations don't work perfectly.(and nobody would expect them to work perfectly)Again, you have provided no evidence of anything other than the presence of fly ash in teh air- well- how did you think fly ash got the name?"High data variations in coal fly ash mixtures probably confirms the organometallic origin of the trace elementsanalyzed."No it doesn't. If you disagree, please explain the mechanism.However, if it did, it would be consistent with the fact that organometallics might be formed briefly during the combustion of coal- in power stations- shortly before the ash gets vented up the chimney."Never forget that solar geoengineering is patented technology! :)"Never forget that you don't need to prove that something works to patent it.andNever forget that, just because something is patented, that doesn't men anyone is using it.

So, once again, you have done exactly what you were asked not to do- spouted the same old trash- and you have failed to do what you were asked to do- provide evidence.

The difference between the deliberate injections of metal oxides particles in the troposphere and the accidental escapeof coal fly ash is in the mechanical method used for dispersing the trace metals.

The study only measured elemental ratio differences. That can't discern the difference between intentional and accidental injection.

Quote

Trace elements of Aluminium and Barium oxides in rainwater is a evidence of controlled solar geoengineering using metal oxides particulate matter.

How? It could just as easily be evidence of coal fly ash from power plants. Volcanoes also introduce aluminum and barium in the atmosphere (the dust can remain in the atmosphere for months and fifty to sixty volcanoes erupt worldwide every year). Barium and aluminum are also present in meteors, tens of thousands of kilograms of which enter the Earth's atmosphere every day. You would need some way to distinguish the origin of the elements, which this study cannot do.

Condensation trails are normally seen in the upper atmosphere were the temperature is about -50 degrees C I don't think the temperature at ground level has much effect.

Chemtrails are temperature independent. They can be observed in winter and summer. The contrail theory is pseudoscience because water particles doesn't condense without freezing.

It's generally very cold up there- ice formation isn't any problem.Also, have you ever noticed condensation on windows on cold, but not frosty, days?

Why do you keep clinging to an idea that makes less sense every time you look at it?

And, BTW, any progress on the evidence?You know- things like the infrastructure that would be needed to ship stacks of coal ash to military airports- sprayers on planes- well- actually anything would be a start?

The contrail theory is pseudoscience because water particles doesn't condense without freezing.

If that's true, then how is it possible for fog to form at temperatures above freezing? How is the classic "cloud in a bottle" experiment possible without freezing temperatures?

I guess the vapor phase condensation of an aerosol mostly depends on its molecular configuration: Could it be possible that the "cloud in a bottle" experiment is still a combustion-driven (exothermic) reaction? (Hint: fire and water also produces smoke)

Quote from: Kryptid

It would also be nice if you would answer our questions in regards to the coal fly ash study: how can a rainwater study determine if any contamination present is intentional or accidental?

Thats a very interesting question. I'll try to find a intelligent answer to this and I'll come back to this question.

You can make contrails at any altitude and temperature, and you don't even need an engine to do it. Try pulling up sharply from Vne to Vs in a glider near the ground on a humid summer day. The wingtip contrails won't grow or even persist, but you can see and photograph them. Above 20,000 ft the air is often supersaturated so any turbulence, additional mositure or particulate will form a persistent and possibly growing contrail.

It's interesting that high altitude cloud cover across the USA decreased anomalously in the week after 9/11 when aircraft movements were prohibited, due entirely to a lack of nucleation.

As for piles of fly ash, it's entirely possible that the military could acquire them and the means to distribute them, but the objective for doing so remains obscure. Cloud seeding is a very intensive operation and has really only been used in anger to control the weather around Chernobyl for a few days. There's little point in doing it at regular contrail level because the water content of the upper atmosphere is so low - any precipitation would evaporate before it hit the ground. You need to seed at 3000 - 10000 ft to make useful rain, and a helicopter is better than an airplane for doing that.

I guess the vapor phase condensation of an aerosol mostly depends on its molecular configuration: Could it be possible that the "cloud in a bottle" experiment is still a combustion-driven (exothermic) reaction? (Hint: fire and water also produces smoke)

The process of a gas turning into a liquid or solid is exothermic (since it releases heat into the environment), but that's not combustion.

I guess the vapor phase condensation of an aerosol mostly depends on its molecular configuration: Could it be possible that the "cloud in a bottle" experiment is still a combustion-driven (exothermic) reaction? (Hint: fire and water also produces smoke)

Thats a very interesting question. I'll try to find a intelligent answer to this and I'll come back to this question.

I suggest that you stop guessing.Also, you are supposed to think of intelligent answers to that sort of question before you believe the bullshit- never mind before you post it.

BTW, condensation is going to be exothermic in both cases.Learn some science.

It depends on the circumstances (mainly: what are you oxidising?).But it has nothing to do with the topic.

And, BTW, any progress on the evidence?You know- things like the infrastructure that would be needed to ship stacks of coal ash to military airports- sprayers on planes- well- actually anything would be a start?

Exactly half of oxidations are exothermic.All reactions are (in principle) reversible.A reaction that is exothermic in on direction is endothermic in the other.It's still nothing to do with the topic.

Understanding if artificial cloud seeding is produced intentionally or from the deliberate injections of reflective particulates is critical to understand why solar geoengineering activity is a form of air pollution.

Exactly half of oxidations are exothermic.All reactions are (in principle) reversible.A reaction that is exothermic in on direction is endothermic in the other.It's still nothing to do with the topic.

Understanding if artificial cloud seeding is produced intentionally or from the deliberate injections of reflective particulates is critical to understand why solar geoengineering activity is a form of air pollution.

Still not found any evidence then?And the energetics of reactions like that are rather small compared to the energetics of weather.

I can't think of a single endothermic oxidation! Possibly due to senility, but I'd be grateful for an example.

OK, consider iron being oxidised by a copper sulphate solution.Iron is oxidised and coper(II) ions are reduced.The reaction in that directiuon is exothermic.Now consider the reaction in the opposite direction where copper is oxidised by iron(II) sulphate to produce iron and copper sulphate.That reaction must be endothermic.

That reaction doesn't go very far, but you can calculate the extent to which it happens and that extent is not zero.

As I said, since all reactions are reversible, any oxidation is reversible- but even in the "other direction" it's still an oxidation.And in one direction or the other, it must be endothermic.

Solar geoengineering is unilateral scientific radicalisation with serious risks for human health and the environment. Conventional air traffic creates no chemtrails. There's no reason to hide or disguise the truth as climate change or global warming. The evidence of systemic disinformation and propaganda on geoengineering activity is brainwashing and manipulation of atmospheric oxygen-ozone levels.

I'm guessing Trump is a huge fan of chemtrails. If it weren't for crazy conspiracies like this, the radio shows from which his campign support swelled would have anything to discuss on a daily basis and would exist. If that were the case, he never would have gotten a sniff at the White house.

The large burden of sulfate aerosols injected into the stratosphere by the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991 cooled Earth and enhanced the destruction of polar ozone in the subsequent few years. The continuous injection of sulfur into the stratosphere has been suggested as a “geoengineering” scheme to counteract global warming. We use an empirical relationship between ozone depletion and chlorine activation to estimate how this approach might influence polar ozone. An injection of sulfur large enough to compensate for surface warming caused by the doubling of atmospheric CO2 would strongly increase the extent of Arctic ozone depletion during the present century for cold winters and would cause a considerable delay, between 30 and 70 years, in the expected recovery of the Antarctic ozone hole.

The large burden of sulfate aerosols injected into the stratosphere by the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991 cooled Earth and enhanced the destruction of polar ozone in the subsequent few years. The continuous injection of sulfur into the stratosphere has been suggested as a “geoengineering” scheme to counteract global warming. We use an empirical relationship between ozone depletion and chlorine activation to estimate how this approach might influence polar ozone. An injection of sulfur large enough to compensate for surface warming caused by the doubling of atmospheric CO2 would strongly increase the extent of Arctic ozone depletion during the present century for cold winters and would cause a considerable delay, between 30 and 70 years, in the expected recovery of the Antarctic ozone hole.

Are you trolling, or do you really not understand the difference between

"... has been suggested as a “geoengineering” scheme..." and anything like evidence that geoengineering is actually being done?

The large burden of sulfate aerosols injected into the stratosphere by the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991 cooled Earth and enhanced the destruction of polar ozone in the subsequent few years. The continuous injection of sulfur into the stratosphere has been suggested as a “geoengineering” scheme to counteract global warming. We use an empirical relationship between ozone depletion and chlorine activation to estimate how this approach might influence polar ozone. An injection of sulfur large enough to compensate for surface warming caused by the doubling of atmospheric CO2 would strongly increase the extent of Arctic ozone depletion during the present century for cold winters and would cause a considerable delay, between 30 and 70 years, in the expected recovery of the Antarctic ozone hole.

Here I am, still waiting for any environmental phenomena to be definitively linked to chemtrails. Doesn't look like I'm going to ever get it...

Here I am, still waiting for any environmental phenomena to be definitively linked to chemtrails. Doesn't look like I'm going to ever get it...

Don't get blinded by the suggestions made in this study. Solar geoengineering is clandestine research disguised as a philanthropy. It is illegal strictly in the political sense because our governments declines its existence. Clandestine research is pseudoscience to me.

Don't get blinded by the suggestions made in this study. Solar geoengineering is clandestine research disguised as a philanthropy. It is illegal strictly in the political sense because our governments declines its existence. Clandestine research is pseudoscience to me.

Here I am, still waiting for any environmental phenomena to be definitively linked to chemtrails. Doesn't look like I'm going to ever get it...

Don't get blinded by the suggestions made in this study. Solar geoengineering is clandestine research disguised as a philanthropy. It is illegal strictly in the political sense because our governments declines its existence. Clandestine research is pseudoscience to me.

I bother to educate the mass about the obfuscation of clandestine geoengineering research.

So far, your education has consisted of making claims but being unable to provide any evidence.Why do you keep on restating the claims, rather than producing evidence?Is it because you have no evidence?

Chemtrails are not dumped when the wind is blowing. It reduces the albedo the day after they sprayed their stuff, by producing a haze. If this is not evidence of the deliberate injections of aerosols in the troposphere, I don't know what is a evidence.

Chemtrails are not dumped when the wind is blowing. It reduces the albedo the day after they sprayed their stuff, by producing a haze. If this is not evidence of the deliberate injections of aerosols in the troposphere, I don't know what is a evidence.

So far, your education has consisted of making claims but being unable to provide any evidence.Why do you keep on restating the claims, rather than producing evidence?Is it because you have no evidence?

Because it would actually help your position, maybe? If it actually showed what you claimed it to show, that is. I doubt you even have such a link to share in the first place, which makes your claim of a chemtrail-wind speed correlation hollow.

Quote

if you fail to observe the basics of geoengineering?

You have yet to establish that geoengineering of the type you are talking about even exists.

Quote

I suggest you take the time needed to observe the phenomenon in situ.

How, exactly? I can't look up in the sky and say "this contrail over here is a chemtrail while that contrail over there is not". Do you have some kind of special super-vision that allows you to analyse the chemical composition of substances? If not, then you can't tell the difference either.

You're clearly forgetting that most "scientific" studies on solar geoengineering are being experimentally tested in situ. I don't believe the nonsense that theses "experiments" are being done only in laboratory conditions.