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Admittedly, when they were walking along the path in the woods (Well, Kirito was doing the walking actually) I was totally expecting them to be pounced by some monster. Thankfully I was wrong about that.

6,000 players left in the game, with about 2,000 hanging around in the Town of Beginnings. I noticed that it seemed to be mostly older players, such as the fishermen.

They were at Level 22 when the were in the woods... the whole point of having their honeymoon/moving there was that it was supposed to be monster-less place. Same with all those older fishermen.

Besides, at their level, they could probably solo any Level 20-ish mob with Level 0 equipment even if they were ambushed by the dozens.

Town of Beginnings is different level altogether.

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Night~and~Gale: ~ The Final Mythology of the Man who Defied Destiny.The sleeping lion shall awaken beyond the depths of time, crossing ten billion lights, come to Terra.

Edit: On another topic, I don't really see the romance as a "knight in shining armour" thing -- isn't it the reverse of that? She's not attracted to him because he's a knight, but because he's someone who taught her how to live in the game. Sure, it's nice that he can fight along side her, but I don't think that was a key element of the attraction. If anything, it's a cause of stress for her.

By reverse you mean how she saves physically (or virtually) him? The thing is that he saved her first since she was already heading into despair.

Would it be more accurate if I had said something like 'he is her shining light in this dark world, and she is his'? (Honestly though, I find it to be in the same vein).
I did also say "with a twist", though I mean that in terms of she's also his (shining knight), and the whole what really happens after you marry your saviour.

If you know nothing about MMO's, then who are you to comment on what would and wouldn't happen in one?

I don't play MMO's. There's a difference to playing them and being generally knowledgeable about them. I'm the latter. If I didn't know anything about them I probably wouldn't be watching SAO in the first place.

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What exactly about this whole thing seems unrealistic to you?

No no no you misunderstand. My complaint is that it's too realistic. SAO is an MMORPG, things shouldn't work like reality does. Why are people afraid of thugs trying to extort them when there's absolutely no risk for disobeying them? They can't get hurt in a safe zone so there's really no concequences.

To me, SAO largely forgot here that it's set in an MMORPG. I don't want to see realism, I want to see a video game. This episode did a terrible job at showing that.

Since there's so many replies saying the same thing I'll just concede and say that apparently my rational way of thought doesn't mesh well with what SAO presents me. As much as it's true that many people like to deceive themselves, I can't empathize with that because I don't think that way.

This episode had hardly any indications they were inside a game at all, and as soon as those army men came in demanding taxes be paid, that just cut it for me. It's a goddamn MMO guys, treat it like one.

On the contrary, this is what I expect to happen when 10,000 of people are confinded in a place where is no way out, no law, no police. Game or not after 2 years in a virtual world where virtual death is real death, human nature will revert to that of animal. The strong takes advantage of the weak. And if the game implements sex pleasure, this will gets really ugly.

If they weren't army soldiers extorting virtual money, out of them I'd probably be able to accept it. What is that going to accomplish? Getting them better items to protect people? Then why are they extorting money from folks if they're trying to protect everyone?

Because even if your real body won't die if you don't eat, you still feel hunger in the game. Food and lodging cost money. You either rent a room all the time or save enough to buy a home. So where do you get the money? And again there are all kinds of people, there were those who decided that stealing or PKing was their cup of tea. Yes someone with enough level would go farm but that takes work, where extorting those lowbies in the first floor of their money was easier for those Army mooks.

No no no you misunderstand. My complaint is that it's too realistic. SAO is an MMORPG, things shouldn't work like reality does. Why are people afraid of thugs trying to extort them when there's absolutely no risk for disobeying them? They can't get hurt in a safe zone so there's really no concequences.

Requires out of the show reasoning, but have you heard about cyber bullying?
Some people will ignore it (as one should), but there will always be people who get baited and it can get out of hand.

As for your problem with the soldiers. Oh Fuc*ing come on bro, are you serious? You telling me theres no corruption in our government? No corruption in our army? This is a world where being an "army member" isn't the same as being in the army in your so-called "real world". Even IN our real world, we have racism + corruption in the army, what's to stop people in the game from power tripping and bullying people?

I'm sure many of you are starting to wonder what the heck is happening to the Army I guess, given the last, last,... ep where they come in from the 1st floor and try to smash a front-line boss. /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Clarste

Would a monster at this level even be able to hurt them? They could probably have ignored it and kept walking.

It would have been Gold if Kirito encounters a <<Boar>>, then the <<Boar>> attacks and does not even pounce him.

I don't play MMO's. There's a difference to playing them and being generally knowledgeable about them. I'm the latter. If I didn't know anything about them I probably wouldn't be watching SAO in the first place.

So basically you're basing your claims on your own prejudice about what happens in MMO's, and refuse to reconsider when people who actually play games (EVE Online) where this kind of stuff is normal says it is to be expected?

Sounds very much like some guy who's never studied climate change saying it's all a scam cause hey my politicians say so.

That would work only if it wasn't totally obvious the virtual world wasn't real, and in this case, it's not. Everyone in the game is aware that none of what they are currently experiencing is real, their bodies are only programmed to recognize it as so thanks to their helmets. The only exceptions that probably think otherwise are the ones who went insane after Kayaba made his announcement back at the beginning. (AKA PK guild members)

That it's a virtual world does not change the fact that they've been living in it for two years. The need for food and shelter, and the income required to get those did not go away. Treating SAO as real is practically a requirement to cope, and deal with the situation.

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No I don't really agree. I'd say the people who are on the first floor are people who aren't incredibly avid gamers, therefore they largely should be the ones to "treat is as an MMO" more than anyone else, because that's all it is to them.

The people on the first floor are the army who are based there, and those too frightened of death to develop sufficient levels and skills to live in a higher floor. Treating it as an MMO would be the last thing they do, as the fact that it's no longer an MMO, but a death game is the reason they're still there.

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If they weren't army soldiers extorting virtual money, out of them I'd probably be able to accept it. What is that going to accomplish? Getting them better items to protect people? Then why are they extorting money from folks if they're trying to protect everyone?

The "Army" is just a guild that was the most powerful frontline guild until they got reemed by the floor 25 boss. That didn't stop their rhetoric about fighting to get everyone out, or the tendency of some members to see it as the average player's duty to support them. We already saw this at play with the Army squad leader demanding valuable map data be handed over for free. These soldiers exhorting money are just the low level extension of that. Calling it a tax is just putting a pretty name on it to make it sound like they have the moral high ground.

I don't play MMO's. There's a difference to playing them and being generally knowledgeable about them. I'm the latter. If I didn't know anything about them I probably wouldn't be watching SAO in the first place.

No no no you misunderstand. My complaint is that it's too realistic. SAO is an MMORPG, things shouldn't work like reality does. Why are people afraid of thugs trying to extort them when there's absolutely no risk for disobeying them? They can't get hurt in a safe zone so there's really no concequences.

To me, SAO largely forgot here that it's set in an MMORPG. I don't want to see realism, I want to see a video game. This episode did a terrible job at showing that.

Since there's so many replies saying the same thing I'll just concede and say that apparently my rational way of thought doesn't mesh well with what SAO presents me. As much as it's true that many people like to deceive themselves, I can't empathize with that because I don't think that way.

Dude you're missing the entire point. SAO is the very first VRMMO ever released where you could experience the world w/ your own (virtual) eyes vs. playing it on the other side of a LED screen. It's main selling point is how close it actually comes to reality. You shouldn't really equate it to a standard MMO because it simply isn't. Kayabas goal is for the players to treat SAO as "real". If it still feels like a regular old MMORPG even after all that then that's going to be disappointing.

That would work only if it wasn't totally obvious the virtual world wasn't real, and in this case, it's not. Everyone in the game is aware that none of what they are currently experiencing is real, their bodies are only programmed to recognize it as so thanks to their helmets. The only exceptions that probably think otherwise are the ones who went insane after Kayaba made his announcement back at the beginning. (AKA PK guild members)

No I don't really agree. I'd say the people who are on the first floor are people who aren't incredibly avid gamers, therefore they largely should be the ones to "treat is as an MMO" more than anyone else, because that's all it is to them.

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Originally Posted by Rakshasa

You seem to underestimate the ability of the human mind to delude itself, seeming instead to go for the 'humans are rational' fallacy that plagued the natural philosophers of our time.

It seems pretty obvious that the non-avid gamers would be quicker to accept SAO as a real world considering that they're not on the front lines, dealing with stats and game mechanics.

A big part of the population that play MMO do it as a form of escapism and sometimes they carry some emotional baggage with them.

On the subject of people deluding themselves. Even in real world settings people do it when you put them in a believable enough scenario. Just recently watched a program talking about a psychological experiment exploring why prison guards turn to extremes of opression and some prisoners submmisive. It was done with volunteer college psychology students. In the end the experiment went so awry and subjects were so into their roles that those guard students wouldn't even blink twice to give corporal or isolation punishments, the psychology researcher in charge turned himself into the tyrannic prison warden. This only took a few weeks to devolve into that and they were aware that it was an experiment! It took outside people's influence for those subjects to snap out of it.

Now SAO it isn't only a game you play or see thru a TV screen. You're completely immersed in it with almost all your senses 24/7 for 2 years. And you don't think some people start believing in that reality?

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko

I don't play MMO's so I don't know about the "scene" as well as people who do would, but I have learnt a lot about them thanks to various other media, so I figure I'm knowledgeable enough to make my own judgement calls.

And that just sounded like something a Politican says when he wants to ban certain games or a Psychologist says videogames are harmful, based on what they read in the media and not knowing what even the game is about.

Last edited by Kamui04; 2012-09-16 at 01:24.
Reason: correcting/adding some info

By reverse you mean how she saves physically (or virtually) him? The thing is that he saved her first since she was already heading into despair.

Would it be more accurate if I had said something like 'he is her shining light in this dark world, and she is his'? (Honestly though, I find it to be in the same vein).
I did also say "with a twist", though I mean that in terms of she's also his (shining knight), and the whole what really happens after you marry your saviour.

Well, that's a very loose definition of "knight in shining armour" I guess that has little to do with him actually being (for all intents and purposes) a "knight". In that broader sense, he is someone that helped her get a new perspective on life, so yes, I guess in that sense she is in a relationship with someone she feels indebted to in that way. He's certainly a very important person to her. But isn't that rather normal? I mean, people generally fall in love with someone who brings out a different side of themselves. So I guess I didn't really see it as that close to the typical "knight in shining armour" stereotype, even if there is an aspect of "being saved" in there (and in reverse). Well, I guess it's mostly semantics. I see what you mean, anyway.

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Why are people afraid of thugs trying to extort them when there's absolutely no risk for disobeying them? They can't get hurt in a safe zone so there's really no concequences.

Well, we don't yet know enough about the situation to say for sure, but I think there could be consequences. If the Army has convinced the population on the first floor that they're the only ones who can save them from the trap they're stuck in, and everyone generally believes that, then speaking against the authorities could get you into trouble, even if they can't "hurt" you physically. I take it that people still need food/water even in this game (even if it's to fill up some virtual gauge), and people still need a safe place to sleep (with the risk of Sleep PK, and so on). Is it feasible for someone to literally lock themselves in a room and never go out for any reason for months? If not, the Army could make it very "difficult" to survive for these people, and if someone resists they could start spreading the threat to other people. It could all result in a sort of peer pressure to exile the troublemaker into the "game world" where things really can hurt/kill them. Faced with such uncertainty, it's probably easier to just give the thugs what they want and hope they leave you alone.

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Since there's so many replies saying the same thing I'll just concede and say that apparently my rational way of thought doesn't mesh well with what SAO presents me. As much as it's true that many people like to deceive themselves, I can't empathize with that because I don't think that way.

I don't think it's about a "rational way of thought". There are ways to torture someone that don't involve physical pain, particularly when you're afraid of going out of the starter town and potentially having to face enemies and death. (Who knows just how exaggerated their tales of the danger of the "world out there" may be? Isn't it also in the starter town where they have the list that shows all the players who have died?) I think you're just not giving that sort of psychological element enough credit, even in this game.

That would work only if it wasn't totally obvious the virtual world wasn't real, and in this case, it's not. Everyone in the game is aware that none of what they are currently experiencing is real, their bodies are only programmed to recognize it as so thanks to their helmets. The only exceptions that probably think otherwise are the ones who went insane after Kayaba made his announcement back at the beginning. (AKA PK guild members)

No I don't really agree. I'd say the people who are on the first floor are people who aren't incredibly avid gamers, therefore they largely should be the ones to "treat is as an MMO" more than anyone else, because that's all it is to them.

I don't play MMO's so I don't know about the "scene" as well as people who do would, but I have learnt a lot about them thanks to various other media, so I figure I'm knowledgeable enough to make my own judgement calls.

If they weren't army soldiers extorting virtual money, out of them I'd probably be able to accept it. What is that going to accomplish? Getting them better items to protect people? Then why are they extorting money from folks if they're trying to protect everyone?

Hmm...If you were in a game in which, if you died, you'd die in real life, you'd still think it was just a game?
If it were me, it would be a reality alright.
And...most of those PKers probably didn't go insane after Kayaba's speech, they were most likely already insane to begin with. They're doing it for " the lulz "

1 - 2 Years passed by, you've either been fighting agaisn't monsters with your life in the line, or you've been in 1st town trying to fight agaisn't yourself ( So you don't go insane ), so what if their " life " is linked through a helmet? They can still die, and die for real. That seems pretty real to me, real enough to be a " reality ".

2 - Why are you saying they're not " avid gamers " ? They aren't going out because they're most likely afraid of dying - Since in this MMO you can really die, it's a reality for them, for sure. Even if they don't admit it. If not, if it's just a game, why are they still there? Some people thought it was just a game, and suicided. Maybe they died, maybe they didn't, who knows.
If you die, I don't think it's a game ( And Asuna isn't an " avid gamer ", since this was her first game. A hint is given right at episode 2 ( I think ) - In which she says she had never been in a party before ( Even Kirito, who is a solo had played in parties before, I think, since he knew all that thing about switching and stuff - And his reaction when he heard she never partied ) so...not only " avid gamers " are playing in the Front Lines, or fighting monsters. Those players just want to get out, and probably like Asuna, to defeat this world, and not being " consumed " by it. )

3 - Well, if you think you know enough to make your own judgments, that's okay, I guess. Even if you don't play MMOs you can show us your PoV, wether it's right or wrong, not everyone in here plays MMOs, just like you. Though probably what you've seen/read/listened to in the media...isn't half of what there is to know..( Only saying that through media you won't know much, not even close to what gamers know, not saying you don't know anything )

4 - ...You really think they want money? They just want to feel like they're in a higher position than them. People in First Town have no money at all. All what they can pay with their money is their house and food. It's the first town, so everything is cheap. You really think they want 1 " coin " per person, and it will change much? 1 group of monsters will probably give them 20x that.

Since there's so many replies saying the same thing I'll just concede and say that apparently my rational way of thought doesn't mesh well with what SAO presents me. As much as it's true that many people like to deceive themselves, I can't empathize with that because I don't think that way.

It's actually pretty irrational to believe that a world you can't perceive is more real than the world you perceive. All you have are your senses. Not one moment in your life have you ever been outside of your own head. To believe that one world is "real" and another is "fake" just because of the order you've experienced them in is completely irrational. The rational thing to do would be to figure out what you want out of life and figure out how to get it, "it" being some kind of sensory experience or feeling. If you can get that in a game (good food, safety, whatever), then it's rational to try to get it. It's irrational to not care what happens to you just because you think it's fake.

So basically you're basing your claims on your own prejudice about what happens in MMO's, and refuse to reconsider when people who actually play games (EVE Online) where this kind of stuff is normal says it is to be expected?

Sounds very much like some guy who's never studied climate change saying it's all a scam cause hey my politicians say so.

Don't think I denied whatever you and a few others were saying about extortion being a common thing in MMO's so I don't know why you're making such a claim.

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Dude you're missing the entire point. SAO is the very first VRMMO ever released where you could experience the world w/ your own (virtual) eyes vs. playing it on the other side of a LED screen. It's main selling point is how close it actually comes to reality. You shouldn't really equate it to a standard MMO because it simply isn't. Kayabas goal is for the players to treat SAO as "real". If it still feels like a regular old MMORPG even after all that then that's going to be disappointing.

This just brings me back to that food preparation mechanic in episode 8. If they have the technology to make an MMORPG so realistic then why not go all the way? It's inconsistent.

Don't think I denied whatever you and a few others were saying about extortion being a common thing in MMO's so I don't know why you're making such a claim.

This just brings me back to that food preparation mechanic in episode 8. If they have the technology to make an MMORPG so realistic then why not go all the way? It's inconsistent.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've already got my point across. Leave a comment on my profile or something if any of you have something else to say. Don't want this to get out of hand.

Well SAO wasn't originally intended to be a death trap game in the beginning. Well at least by the developers aside from Kayaba. So I'm thinking they would want to reach a balance between realism and gaming. Something really close to but also more accessible and user friendly than RL.