In today’s Toronto Star,Amy Patakireports on the latest trend sweeping Roncesvalles: credit card machines suggesting a 20 per cent tip. At least, that’s the standard at the strip’s two newest restaurants, The Ace and The Westerly. Pataki quotes Ace owner Greg Boggs explaining, “It’s not a sneaky thing, nor is it an expectation. I always tip at least 20 per cent when I go out.” Of course, the two Roncy restos aren’t the only ones that have moved to what Pataki refers to as “the Manhattan standard”—at the three locations of Mexican restaurant Milagro, suggested tips come in at 16, 20 and, ahem, 30 per cent (the last for larger parties). Long-time Dish readers will remember the furor that broke out when then-MPP David Caplan (who happens to be the brother of Zane Caplansky) proposed a bill than would ban automatic gratuities on large parties (that effort died on the order paper). We wonder how Torontonians will react to this new nudge northward. Read the entire story [Toronto Star] »

I do not mind leaving a bigger tip if I feel that the service was exemplary, i.e. courteous, knowledgeable, genuine and efficient. Sadly, you only get one of these or nothing, plus THE attitude in most restaurants these days.

The problem is most servers rarely look at their job with pride and dedication, but merely as temporary stint.

This is insulting as a restaurant patron. The number of restaurants in Toronto where a 20% gratuity is earned and warranted is exceptionally small. Toronto is no where near the quality of service (on average) that one receives when dining in NYC – that is the gold standard. It’s not our problem that wait staff are underpaid

If restaurants feel that servers deserve more money, then they should increase their wages instead of putting the onus on the customer. Tip ratios should be dependent on the quality of service, and it is an insulting imposition to impose such a levy upon them. And I’m sorry but it has to be said- few restaurants in Toronto provide Manhattan calibre service.

Outrageous madness!! MC —-> you are right. In NY, service is either super great or bad, no in between and I tip sometimes even 30% in NY. Here in TO… rarely tip past 18% and thats a stretch. Why does wait staff feel or the cheap restaurants who charge a lot and dont pay their staff enough expect ME to make up for their low wages?! I tip for service provided, and ATTITUDE not cause I have to or its the law!

If a restaurant pays a server more the food costs go up. In most restaurants the server pays out of his/her pocket 3.5-4.5% of the total they sold that shift REGARDLESS of what they made. That money goes to the bussers cooks and hosts. Its an incentive to work. As is a serve rmakes about $8 an hr.
Alot of diners look for flaws so that they don’t have to tip properly. Alot also max out at 10%. Its rough. Also try serving a party with a $1000 bill that happens to leave 10%, you’ve now made $60 and chances are the next table will feel some of that. It’s true but happens. Unless you’ve done it and put up with the crazy requests, eccentric, overly demanding and often rude guests don’t get down on wait staff

This is a horrible way for restaurant managers to subsidize employee pay. If your restaurant is ‘higher-end’ you should pay the employees more and charge more for your dishes rather than adding a ‘service tax’ on top of your prices to help compensate your employees.

A tip is something freely given for good service, a mandatory or strongly suggested tip is just a service fee that you don’t want to add into your prices. I don’t know about anyone else, but it already can cost upwards of $50 a person to eat out, adding another 20% onto that is enough to make me stay home and cook.

Jiggily, there are plenty of working citizens out there who work backbreaking hours with similar wages, many without even the benefit of overtime pay, let alone gratuities. If you have issues with working conditions then take it up with the CRA or don’t work in the service industry period. It’s ridiculous and presumptuous for customers to be expected to pick up the slack that an industry should provide for their employees.

Tips are called gratuities for a reason. I tip between 5 and 20 percent depending on the service, and I suspect most patrons operate under similar principles as opposed to “look for reasons not to tip”. For an establishment to impose 20 percent is preposterous.

The article is maddening. Cut through the B.S. The plain and simple fact is that restaurants have always made it the customer responsibility to pay their staff. This is insane. Especially since there are THOUSANDS of North American restaurants where management keeps HALF if not ALL of the tips given to wait staff. SO explain that! I understand that is a different subject and not the norm. But the fact remains that it is the RESTAURANT OWNER who should pay their staff for exceptional service. I shouldn’t feel like I’m attending a charity event. If the food tastes really good, should I also pay the restaurant more for the cost of the food? That’s how stupid their argument is. When is enough enough? Should we soon be paying 40% and 50% tips? Why encourage the public to eat out less and less; having to stress out over a goddamned tip rather than being able to enjoy a meal. I worked at a restaurant for years. My job was to bring food to the table and remember the order. How much money is that worth? I was happy for any tip I got. But then I exceeded age 20 and didn’t need to work at a restaurant anymore…

20%!! Not in this lifetime. For 20%, the server needs to keep the drinks filled, park my car, wash it, vacuum it, and bring it to the front door when I’m done. Since when is the 20% the new 15% in a recession?

Jiggly- That tweet you were referring to was mine, so I’ll explain myself before you put me on blast like I’m some cheapskate.

I tip based on service, not what makes me look good or bad in front of a waiter. If I get friendly waitstaff who take pride in their work and understand the guidelines of their job, then my standard tip is 20%. In my tweet, I said THESE DAYS they’re lucky if they get 10% out of me because restaurant owners aren’t taking customer service seriously anymore. I can’t even count how many times in the last month I’ve been left at a table for over an hour without service. If you’re an idiot, I’ll pay you like one.

I’m not demanding, I just want my food at MOST 45 mins after I order it and I don’t want my glass empty for an hour. If that’s too complex for someone, then I imagine counting my change might be an easier task. I don’t have an issue with tipping, I have an issue with rewarding undeserving people.

Bottom line – the system is what it is. There is no debate as to whether restaurant owners should pay their staff more so that patrons should have to pay less. Gratuities for service staff are as much a reality as paying for the food, the wine, the parking and the babysitter. If you plan on going out to a restaurant all of these costs must be factored in. Why not refuse to pay for the appetizers because parking was more expensive than you had anticipated? That’s not going to happen.

As for restaurant owners, no one chooses to pay their service staff less. They pay them what they are legally obligated to pay them. Some may choose to pay them more, but chances are they are going to adhere to the legislated minimum wages set for service staff. A wage that is set with the understanding that gratuities make up the remainder of a server’s income. Maybe the owners at The Ace and The Westerly are asses for ‘suggesting’ a 20% tip, but it is just that, a suggestion. If service is good tip 15%. If service is great tip twenty. If service is exceptional than tip more. If tipping a server puts too much pressure on the pocketbook, than the only option is to stay home or find a cheaper restaurant to dine at.

Tipping is a very real issue when dining out, whether you are in Toronto, New York, Dallas, Vancouver or Montreal. Unless service is deplorable a tip of 10% or less amounts to nothing more than pure ignorance or flat out cheapness. Either way, if all you are prepared to tip from the get go is 10% than do everyone a favour – stay at home.

John– you are absolutely right that the amount servers make is determined by the government. This is simply the way things are. I have been a career server for most of my life and I take a great amount of pride in my service. However, I have worked with and been served by others who have no idea what goes into the food, can’t recommend a single dish off the menu and WILL leave your glass empty and offer no explanation or apology if the food is taking too long.

However, some patrons are happy to overlook these follies if the server hangs around a lot dispensing false flattery for cash or has big tits. Sure, we’re all prone to using our charms to make patrons happy, but and smart customer can see when they’re being hosed.

“As for restaurant owners, no one chooses to pay their service staff less. They pay them what they are legally obligated to pay them.”

Actually, that is a legislated MINIMUM. As a patron I am legally obligated to only pay what I agreed to pay as far as posted prices and taxes.

The hands of restaurant owners is not tied – they can raise prices and pay their staff more. Or, they can suggest that patrons tip more. By doing the latter, they are trying to hold “headline” prices down, and lure more customers in, then get them to foot the bill for the extra cost. A bit of bait and switch. I don’t have a problem with tipping well, and I understand that it is hard to go another way, but I have to say, the business model of low wages and lower prices with an expectation that it is made up in tips is a lousy one.

It seems to me that the folks who are pushing to up the model to 20% are the worst offenders. They are trying to make a silly business model more silly. Trying to hold their headline prices down and get it back other ways.

Im a server and these are my rules for tipping when I’m out… Because I give excellent service I have high expectations and it’s true some servers are horrible! Please look around first though to see if they are super busy (it’s probably not their choice) before under tipping.
For service that is decent I give 15. For service that was horrible I leave nothing (I.e attitude). For obvious newbies who give bad service I leave 10. And usually I give 20! As far as I’m concerned if they are nice, knowledgable, helpful and my food comes out right – they deserve 20!
Some restaurants take as much as 8% of your sales no matter what!

I have worked as a waitress and as a bartender in Toronto and Montreal. I am usually a more generous tipper because of my experiences. I have a hard time leaving less than 10%, even when the service stinks (I need to take this up with my therapist, I know).

For a while now, I’ve been down on the service in Toronto restaurants. From inattentive, to hostile, to poorly informed, to passive-aggressive, anything goes. And I blame all of us (myself included) for returning to restaurants with terrible service. It’s the new norm in Toronto and it blows.

Have you noticed that even restaurants where the service is good (knowledgeable, friendly) are often understaffed? Why are there so few bussers? Why do I have to ask for my water glass to be refilled? More than once, in most cases?

I’m tired of being served by hipsters who are way too cool to care about my meal. In New York restaurants, it’s common to find career waiters and waitresses who take pride in their work; they get that they work in the “service” industry. Their only goal is to make you happy and for that, they make big bucks (as they should).

Milagro is referred to in the article as having high suggested tips. I live near a location have eaten there many times and the service is consistenly good.

I don’t mind paying 20% at all, but agree with others that it shouldn’t be the suggested amount, UNLESS, you consistently offer New York-style service.

Here’s an idea: why don’t all of us stop going to restaurants where the service is lousy? And while we’re at it, let’s tell the manager why we aren’t coming back. Just sayin’…

I think restaurants should publish the percentage of sales they take from their servers. Patrons would better understand how much of the tip actually goes to their server and how much is clawed back by the owners and hopefully redistributed to other staff.

Trust me, the imposed (or even suggested) 20% tip is not a “trend”, not is it “sweeping Roncesvalles”. Geez, as a business owner on Roncesvalles, we’ve all barely survived a lifetime of construction and associated bad press, and now we’re all panhandling 20% tips? How about some good news for a change? I own a restaurant on the street and we don’t (and don’t plan) to suggest a 20% tip. Oh, and Dora, there are “arrogant asses who think they’re better than anyone else” everywhere these days. Don’t tar all of Roncesvalles with that brush.

Being a server is a tough job with terrible hours, poor pay and an inconsistent clientele that is often demanding, entitled, and unappreciative. If as a diner you can’t wrap your head around how difficult this job can be and how tipping that extra amount to make someone else’s just a smidgen better, then get take out. One of the best judges of empathy and understanding is often the level at which one tips.

Someone please tell me why I should calculate tip base on price after tax, I am tipping for good service (if not just to compensate lousy wage of server), why would I tip the tax portion? as a thank you to my dear tax you just charged me?

Dinning in restaurant is ridiculous now when I order $10 pizzar, I will end up paying 1/3 more for tips plus tax, and according to Tostar’s calculation, we should pay 40%

Oh how I miss the days when I lived in New Zealand. It was considered extremely rude to tip. They considered good service as part of their job, and, make no mistake, the service there was excellent! Oh, and the distinct lack of attitude, was a great bonus.

To Tom Earl of The Westerly: if you feel servers are underpaid, then why don’t you take some of your profit and increase their rates?! You as the co-owner have that choice – don’t expect your customers to subsidize their low pay. Same goes to Greg Boggs of The Ace.

oh, Basil makes me want to travel to New Zealand!
Just returned from Paris, where wait staff are paid at a higher rate – and tipping with loose change is the norm – aahhh Paris!
To all those service staff complaining about their tips, what I would like to know, is, how much tax are you paying on them? Most of us have to pay tax on ALL of our wages!

Come on people get real…you trumpet the fact that you paid $10+ for two slices of bread and a slice of cheese and you take to the Californication rampars about leaving a little more for the server!It takes the same effort to deliver you a coffee or a Kobe steak and with this % crap you would leave 20 cents or $8….

Plain and simple. If you can’t understand or handle the fact you’re receiving a service in which you are expected to leave at least 10% (for sub par service) then don’t come out. It is interesting to see people’s thoughts on the matter, especially when it comes to tipping over 15%. Why is that so shocking? 15% on a 17-20$ lunch is no more than 3.00$ All this self-entitled banter about how servers, “should be lucky” to get 15%? I didn’t get out of bed to have YOU make ME pay for your meal. I have to pay for support which starts anywhere from 3.5-6% at some restaurants this includes;(bussers, barbacks, host/hostesses, bartenders and line cooks)

I understand tips are meant to be earned and I scrutinize just as much if not more as a server when I go out. That does not mean I could possibly sit there and essentially make server pay for it. It’s kind of sad to prefer American guests in a restaurant but that is the norm in Toronto. Pathetic, right? And having been to New York multiple times in an array of both casual and fine dining restaurants I never saw a difference in service standards. In fact, I was disappointed.

From my own experience, working within a high volume restaurant is not for the faint of heart and anyone who has done it knows how mentally and physically draining it can be. The last thing we want to do at the end of the night is to fork over upwards to 75$ on a busy shift to then look down and wonder where all your running around, making special adjustments, smiles, silent refills, always full pitchers and questions to where the best place to go shopping, went. Bottom line, tip 10% for horrible service, 15% for standard service 20% for great service and 25% + for memorable service.

Server’s in Ontario make $1.35 less than min wage. Servers make $8.90 and min wage is $10.25.

So why all the complaining? They don’t need everyone to tip 20% to make an extra $1.35 per hour to reach the min wage threshold. I’m sure even if they received an average of 10% tips all night, they would still make an extra $1.35 per hour to bring their hourly wage up to $10.25.

But no. they feel they deserve more than min wage, and there is a sense of entitlement pervasive throughout the industry.

What if restaurants actually did start paying servers min wage, and tipping was abolished? I’m sure there would be a flood of people exiting server positions, as it would no longer be as lucrative as it is with tips. They would still complain if they made $10.25 an hour

The bigger scandal, while hinted at here, is that cooks usually don’t receive any tip money whatsoever, despite working just as hard at an equally important job. The money you’re giving goes straight to the server, allowing them to take cabs home after every shift and leave much of their income unreported come tax time. Kitchen staff get their low wage and that’s it — maybe some staff meal if the boss isn’t cheap.

If the tipping system were fair at all, it’d include a separate line for tipping the cooks. 10% to the back of house, 10% to the front. That way both sides could be rewarded equally AND punished separately, i.e. great food delivered by terrible people (and vice versa).

Tipping is important, but presently too imbalanced towards those delivering the food, as opposed to those who are actually making it.

And that’s the problem in a nutshell – this sense of tipping as a right or entitlement. This notion of “that’s just the way it is” is nonsense. So many of these new restaurants are being opened by people from the industry – people who were servers, chefs, whatever (such as the folks at Ace and Westerly, the two restaurants features in this article, pushing for higher tips) – in other words, the same folks who regularly complain that servers are underpaid and believe that patrons should have to make up this shortfall with their tips.

And yet, these same places no doubt gleefully adhere to the notion of not paying their staff one nickel more than they are legally required to. Interesting, don’t you think?

servers have a right to earn a decent living. this traditionally in this country has been through a low wage/tipping structure. they have the opportunity to have a mortgage and raise children and hopefully put them through school.

servers tend to make less in tips as they age because the work load becomes tougher for them physically. they tend to move to restaurants that can support this slower pace and as such the tip percentage of their guests usually decrease as well.

as for cooks not getting a cut of tips…it has been in my experience that great servers tip out those that support them (and are glad for the support and are generous with the tip out). they tip out bussers, hostesses, bartenders and cooks. some places where i have work mandate that all of those positions get a percentage of the server’s sales-because nobody does it alone.

the work is hard, putting up with people is hard, coordinating tables and orders and special requests is hard.

it would be easier for cheap people or people who can’t do math to have a gratuity included in the price-but then they would complain that the prices are too high and would go out less often.

a server position should not be thought of as anything less than your job. most servers, once they average out their tips over the hours that they work, are only added about $10 or $15 to their $9 an hour. would you like to live on a sometimes seasonal job subject to hours being cut for $20 per hour? without benefits?

jerry, most large groups are terrible tippers, everybody drops in a 20 and figures that will cover the tax and tip…it never does or the skinflints in the group duck out paying less…

the server ends up losing tables in the night due to the higher demand on the server’s time that a large table requires, missing out on the opportunity to service 2’s and 4’s which flip quicker and require much less time at the time than does a larger table.

Since I moved to TO in 2001 (when I was 20) I must have been to hundreds of restaurants. Since I was 20, I’ve always left a 15% tip after tax because I think that is the expectation of a restaurant patron. When funds were tight, I didn’t go out as often rather than skimp on the tip. Having said that, 20% is too much. It’s a “tip” not a pay cheque. It’s the restaurant’s job to pay the staff a living wage. If the standard is 20% I’ll be cutting down on my restaurant nights.

why is it the restaurant’s job to pay a ‘living wage’…since when is minimum wage a ‘living wage’ (forget the less than minimum that servers get paid at many establishments’.

i wonder why nobody has brought up the union hotel servers who get paid more than minimum wage….or the bartenders (hotel and free standing) who get paid more than minimum and then get tipped by customers AND get tipped out by servers….

what about tipping other professions? valet, hairdressers, nail techs, baggage handlers, coat check girls….politicians…..
this is a pandora’s box that has been opened….

cab drivers, limo drivers, pizza delivery guy, the homeless person asking for change…how about the retail sales clerk? or commission based sales people? is there a difference? should there be a difference? why or why not?

where is or what is the threshold? is it guilt in some instances? is it a reward or an incentive or an investment?

i tip well, i get remembered and i get impeccable service as a result…

take away deductions, take away the tip out to the others, factor in walk outs, factor in that some people tip less (and some more-but fewer by the sounds of this board) factor in that shifts are usually less and more part-time than full-time….not the monday to friday grind, always working weekends, nights and holidays

the job is much harder and more demanding than working at the gap, as witnessed by this board as well…

it sounds as if you begrudge a waiter making $45K per year-if they can…

This isn’t a case of being cheap (and yes I’ve worked in the service industry); its annoying when the price on the menu isn’t close to the final bill (especially when exceptional service isn’t commonplace).

If the menu says $30, and two people dine and at the end of the day I’m implored (as per the manager who doesn’t pay his staff adequately) to pay 20% on the after tax bill, that equals $81.36 rather than $67.80 (almost $14 in tip). What did I get for that $14?

Pay the employees more, raise the prices accordingly, and let the menus more accurately reflect that actual price.

It does sound as if you are cheap. I love when people say they used to be a waiter or in the “service industry” (whatever that means). They were always the best waiter…why aren’t you still doing that? You couldn’t have been good at it or it was too hard or you didn’t make the big money that you are complaint about here.

Here is a challenge for all you that don’t want to tip. Stay home-don’t go out-don’t feed the machine that you are complaining about. Try it a month or so-boycott the system. See if you can make a change. Stop bitching about it and do something about it.

If you are successful we will see if your hot new restaurants can stay in business or if they will turn up as your next wagjag coupon offer

Or just don’t patronize restaurants that have a 20% button. If you feel that a restaurant is expecting a specific extra percentage of your bill in payment, and you don’t agree with that, don’t eat there.

There’s a wide choice of decent food in this city, and a lot of them don’t expect a 20% surcharge from its customers.

or enter your own percentage or dollar amount…i remember going somewhere and the suggested was 18% and i normally tip 20%…i used it-saved me a couple of bucks but if that is all they expected-fine. i also went to another place and hated it…it gave the option of 0% and i chose that

most people on here that are outraged can’t read. All it says is that the tip percentage button on the cc machine says 20% if you have used on of these you will know that you can hit the $ sign and enter your own tip. People need to relax, if restaurant tip articles outrage you, you should get some ambien

I tip 15% pretax. With HST at 13%, a 15% tip after tax is equivalent to a 17% tip pretax. A 20% tip after tax is equivalent to 23% pretax.

High end restaurants are pricing themselves out of the market. I can eat a lot better at home because I can buy expensive ingredients and expensive wine and I don’t have to worry about my gross margin or cost of food. I could probably also hire a chef to come in and cook it for me for less money than eating it in a restaurant.

Tipping is fine….Tip what you feel is adequate. Don’t listen to anyone but yourself. The waiter is just someone who brings food and beverages. They educate you on ingredients and make recommendations. If you need to tell people how much more money you need, talk to your boss or get another job! This is getting out of hand. If we keep going on with this I’m gonna have my food catered in and buddy down the road can close his doors. I’m self employed and I never suggest that a client should pay me more because I don’t make enough.

Absolutely! In a fantastic twist on the 20% tip debate, Torontonians have joined together to demand lower prices. In reaction to the recent news of restaurants taking an additional 5% of the meal (including taxes!) out of their pockets, casual and around-the-town foodies are speaking with their wallets.

It sounds like the perfect solution: just have the restaurant pay servers more. But there is no room in the margin to give employees raises. Restaurants who pay the standard $8.90/hour close their doors everyday in Toronto because their businesses are unprofitable.

These servers are always going to get paid $8.90 and from the tips often servers will take home only half of what you leave on the table and the bussers and hostesses are REALLY getting the short end of the stick. The bottom-line is that if you’re tipping less that 10%, then you are taking the food out of their childrens’ mouths. I can’t believe someone wrote that ‘they are lucky if they get 10% out of me’.. What a lack of empathy.

If you can’t afford to pay your staff a fair wage, not the sham of a “liquor servers wage”, then the problem is your business model, not the system. Increase your prices to reflect the real cost of doing business. But that won’t happen, will it? Owners fear that higher list prices will deter diners, so they perpetuate the existing state of affairs. Perhaps it wouldn’t be such a deterrent if the listed price of food was more aligned with our expectations of the final total.

European countries seem to do just well with such a system, thank you very much. The price in the menu is the total, taxes and service included.

How are you paying for the meals of the diners? Do you work at an establishment that has you paying the wages of the kitchen staff? That’s called a bad contract, and if you’re silly enough to agree to it, you get to live with the consequences.