Prot Proffesions

I was just wondering what the Ideal professions for a Prot pally are, up until recently I have had Jewellery crafting and mining but recently decided I’d make a gathering toon to make sure that my favourite/raiding toons had the best possible Professions. I do realise that the majority of gains will be marginal at best.

I was thinking of replacing mining with Leatherworking because of the resistance gains.

For pure prot LW + JC is certainly the best choice (more stamina that everything else and resi enchants) , but mining/bs and the situational engi are also good for pure prot.
If you have holy or ret as offspec and want them to benefit as well jc/bs (because of int or str gems) or jc/engi (because of rocket boots) would be your best choices.

Im JC/Mining on my tankadin, but I recently leveled a hunter with engineering, and its so much fun, if I had to start over on a tnak, I would definetly go JC/Engi with mining on an alt. I love using random exploding sheep.

Ok, before I go any further I should state I am a very EH focused tank. While armour does completely mitigate damage I find at end game raiding the part of an encounter causing the most wipes first time in an instance is tank deaths and tank survivability. To maximise Effective Health we need a balance of Stamina and armour this is because the higher our stamina the more effectiveness we get from the damage mitigated.

In terms of finding the value that 1 stamina is worth in regards to armour we have to use formulae found in Theck's TEH thread found on Maintankadin and factor in Diminishing Returns on armour. The formula to find the percentage reduction from the value of armour against a level 83 raid boss that includes diminishing returns is (Armor / (Armor + 16635)) * 100.

Remember that many raid buffs also scale better with stamina, such as Sanc, Kings(although not cumulative with sanc)and talents. Most recently the ICC 20% buff has increased the efficiency of Stamina over armour once again. Any stamina multipliers should be added to the class constant component (K) of Theck's TEH formulae.

Now remember almost all boss combos include spell damage that can't be mitigated by Armour, the entirety of the boss fight only needs to have a spell damage attack every 30 seconds coupled with a melee strike to create an incredible tank killer (Soul Reaper anyone?). Remember we are gearing for the most critical damage spikes not overall. Always gear for the worst case scenario.

Most recently the ICC 20% buff has increased the efficiency of Stamina over armour once again. Any stamina multipliers should be added to the class constant component (K) of Theck's TEH formulae.

That's wrong the buff increases HEALTH not STAMINA, that's why it also increases the value of armor (=> EH = 1.2*(Stamina*10*(1+talents)(1+kings)+Base HP)*(Armor(*1+Talents)+16k)/16k)). Still stamina scales slightly better than armor, but what's most important when comparing them is to also account for minor heals (I've never died without at least getting a pathetic 10k heal, but that still greatly increases the value of armor) and magical damage.

That's wrong the buff increases HEALTH not STAMINA, that's why it also increases the value of defense (=> EH = 1.2*(Stamina*10*(1+talents)(1+kings)+Base HP)*(Armor(*1+Talents)+16k)/16k)). Still stamina scales slightly better than armor, but what's most important when comparing them is to also account for minor heals (I've never died without at least getting a pathetic 10k heal, but that still greatly increases the value of armor) and magical damage.

Actually it's not wrong.
Firstly; you have now drifted away from the primary fundamental of the Effective Health ethos. This is defined as the amount of damage you can take without any heals, or similar effects. This means EH is a measurement of how much breathing room they have.

This is further backed up by Ciderhelm's quote of:
Effective Health is basically a measurement of how much raw damage a creature has to deal to kill you. It is a measurement of Armor and it’s relation to Stamina… Effective Health is the measurement of how much breathing room your healers have to keep you alive assuming all other factors fail — assuming you do not avoid or block attacks or have a mana shield active. Effective Health is important for tanking heavy hitting creatures because of Murphy’s Law — if you can have long strings of not Dodging an attack, it will definitely happen. Raid tanking, ultimately, is about stability.

Secondly, your statement of Stamina doesn't scale with the ICC buff. Buffs are applied mathematically last, in almost all situations. The trade-off between Stamina and Health is applied after talents.

Now I'm going to assume you don't quite understand what you just posted just then because that equation is for total EH not the scaling value of Stamina or Health vs Armour.

There are two equations for determining the value of Stamina vs armour; one is for factoring in Magical damage while the other is based on a purely 100% physical damage fight.

PEH (or Physical Effective Health):
S=C*(K+A)/H
Where the follwing occurs:
S= 1 (one) point of Stamina
C= The co-efficient or multiplication of S, this is based on class specific scenarios such as talents.
K= Armour Diminishing Returns. %=(Armor/([467.5*Enemy_Level]+Armor-22167.5))*100
A= Current armour value (In rating )
H= Current Health

Please note this equation is for finding what is more valuable on your current gear. To compare two pieces of armour remove the slot.
Also note, the diminshing returns equation: %=(Armor/([467.5*Enemy_Level]+Armor-22167.5))*100 is the same as the equation you first listed however, it's not as rough as "subtract 16k", the 16,635 comes from:
(mob level)*467.5-22167.5

This formula is not factoring in raid buffs.

This means that for a protection paladin (C=12.1264) with (Armour Rating)A=33206 and (Health points) H=47329 we get the following equation:

S= 12.1264*((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)/47329
or
12.77(rounded)=12.1264*((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)/47329
One point of stamina (S) = 12.77 Armour Rating present on gear.

TEH (or Total Effective Health):
S=C*(K+A)/(H*M)
You'll probably notice that this is the same equation as before except this time M is present as the final multiplicative.
All values are the same as previously listed however this time M=(1+(Md/100))
where:
Md = percentage of damage taken that is either magical or bleed.

In a fight with 40% magic damage and the same tank as listed before (A=33206, H=47329) fighting a level 83 Raid boss we get the following equation:

S= (12.1264*((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)/47329)*(1+(40/100))
S= 17.87801693
It can also be observed from this that TEH: S= PEHS*(100+Md%)/100

To factor in further Raid buffs such as the ICC 30% buff we increase the value of C by 30%. For a paladin tank this would be (12.1264*130/100).
To give an example of this I'll re-do the PEH and TEH equations with a 30% buff atattched.
PEH:
S= (12.1264*130/100)*((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)/47329
TEH:
S= (12.1264*130/100*((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)/47329)*(1+(40/100))

If you'd like to take this discussion further please don't do as Jamesvz did in this thread here and blindly discuss this topic without any relevant evidence or support: (Still not allowed to post links ) Look for Armor vs HP Math help under Advanced Theorycraft and calculations on Maintankadin

Another alternative would be to review the information given on Maintankadin. Most of what I have said is based off of Theckhd's work in his TEH thread.

EDIT: How on earth does Defense have anything to do with this, Health and defense are in no way related.

Last edited by Halogen0; 2010-06-22 at 11:50 AM.
Reason: Defense Point

How on earth does Defense have anything to do with this, Health and defense are in no way related.

Meant to write armor ....

And you still haven't shown how the ICC buff does affect the value of stamina, but does not affect the value of armor.... but hey I've found the mistake in your calculation :P

S= (12.1264*130/100)*((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)/47329
for a 30% buff the bold value must also be multiplied by 1.3 thus removing the 1.3 in the first part of your equation and because of that the equation remains the same as it was without the buff.

And you still haven't shown how the ICC buff does affect the value of stamina, but does not affect the value of armor.... but hey I've found the mistake in your calculation :P

S= (12.1264*130/100)*((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)/47329
for a 30% buff the bold value must also be multiplied by 1.3 thus removing the 1.3 in the first part of your equation and because of that the equation remains the same as it was without the buff.

No, that equation is written perfectly.
This equation is to determine EH trade-off values to optimise your gear.
Where you went wrong was with your interpretation of the ICC buff.

The ICC buff changes three things: Health, Damage Done and Healing Done. In no way does the ICC buff increase the value of armour it does in fact decrease the value of armour further when compared depending on Stamina to the approximate value of whatever the buff percentage is currently sitting at.

This is why the buff is factored into C and not H because C is buffed and H is unbuffed otherwise we would end up with same value of stamina : armour regardless of percentage buffs applied. (E.g; Sanc and Kings).

In other words as the efficiency of Stamina increases the efficiency of Armour gradually decreases because it does not gain the bonus of the ICC buff.

2) The ICC buff changes three things: Health, Damage Done and Healing Done. In no way does the ICC buff increase the value of armour it does in fact decrease the value of armour further when compared depending on Stamina to the approximate value of whatever the buff percentage is currently sitting at.

3) This is why the buff is factored into C and not H because C is buffed and H is unbuffed otherwise we would end up with same value of stamina : armour regardless of percentage buffs applied. (E.g; Sanc and Kings).

4) In other words as the efficiency of Stamina increases the efficiency of Armour gradually decreases because it does not gain the bonus of the ICC buff.

1) No it's not , because you need to multiply the health you had before with 1.3 as well - not doing this is just wrong. But I'll explain it more detailed later.
2) I'll say it again : It increases HEALTH not STAMINA. If you think like this you might as well add Inspiration (10% less physical damage taken) to the side of armor because it increases the physical resistance, but not your health - same mistake you did.

3) Two words: Base Health . Yes the small amount of base health (+ commanding shout) is all that makes the difference here. Increasing your stamina by 10% does NOT increase your total health by 10% it only increases it by let's say 9% => armor profits less from the increase in stamina. The ICC buff on the other hand increases your total health => also your base health by 30% => both are equally affected by it.

4) It does, but only if the magical damage that occured at a time of death is higher than the healing (+blocks and absorbs) received before your death.

And to go back to an example:
As I said before : EH = (ICC BUFF *(Stam * Buffs + DeltaStam * Buffs + Base HP)) * ((Armor + DeltaArmor + Base Armor)/Base Armor)
Now to take a different approach:
How much DeltaStam do I need for 1% extra EH?
DeltaStam = (BaseHP+Stam*Buffs)/(100*Buffs) or 47329/1212.64 ~ 39 Stamina
How much DeltaArmor do I need for 1% extra EH?
DeltaArmor = (BaseArmor + Armor) / 100 = 49841/100 = 498.4 Armor
As (I hope) you can see the ICC doesn't matter at all here. (And by doing DeltaArmor/DeltaStam we get the 12.77 you had before)

If not I'll try to make it even more clear by setting Buffs to 10 (removing BoK + talents)
Too bad I don't know the base hp + CS combined so I'll just say it's 10k: (this example is only meant to show a difference not actual numbers)
DeltaStam = (BaseHP + Stam) / 100 = 40783/100 ~ 40.8 stam => increasing EH by 1% without stamina modifiers takes more stamina than before (but it's still cheaper than armor)

Now what happens if magical damage is involved (your formula is also wrong here it can never be 1+%magic damage, because if 100% of the damage done would be magical your formula would only double the value of stamina compared to armor, which can't be true because then the value of armor is exactly 0 => it must be ...*1/(1-%magic)

Let's assume you take a Soul reaper that does ~ 50k damage (the rest of the attacks that kill you are autohits)
To increase your EH by 1% with stamina you still need 39
For Armor it looks different now, because only the health you have left after this huge magical attack will be affected by armor:
DeltaArmor = HealthBefore/HealthLeft * (BaseArmor + Armor) / 100 = 47329*ICC/(47329*ICC-50k) * 498.4 = 2660 Armor for 1% health with the 30% ICC buff and without the ICC buff you would already be dead meat.
=> Armor is bad if a high percantage of damage taken before death is of unmitigatable nature.

But this also works the other way round: (assuming pure physical like saurfang and some earth shied + hots or stupid FoLs adding up to 10k hp)
DeltaStam = ICC*(BaseHP+10k+Stam*Buffs)/(100*Buffs*ICC) or 47329+10k/1212.64 ~ 47 Stamina
DeltaArmor = HealthBefore/HealthLeft * (BaseArmor + Armor) / 100 = 47329*ICC/((47329+10k)*ICC) * 498.4 = 411.46 Armor needed for 1%
=> At this point no matter if you have the ICC buff or not Stamina will loose to Armor.

1) No it's not , because you need to multiply the health you had before with 1.3 as well - not doing this is just wrong. But I'll explain it more detailed later.
2) I'll say it again : It increases HEALTH not STAMINA. If you think like this you might as well add Inspiration (10% less physical damage taken) to the side of armor because it increases the physical resistance, but not your health - same mistake you did.

3) Two words: Base Health . Yes the small amount of base health (+ commanding shout) is all that makes the difference here. Increasing your stamina by 10% does NOT increase your total health by 10% it only increases it by let's say 9% => armor profits less from the increase in stamina. The ICC buff on the other hand increases your total health => also your base health by 30% => both are equally affected by it.

4) It does, but only if the magical damage that occured at a time of death is higher than the healing (+blocks and absorbs) received before your death.

And to go back to an example:
As I said before : EH = (ICC BUFF *(Stam * Buffs + DeltaStam * Buffs + Base HP)) * ((Armor + DeltaArmor + Base Armor)/Base Armor)
Now to take a different approach:
How much DeltaStam do I need for 1% extra EH?
DeltaStam = (BaseHP+Stam*Buffs)/(100*Buffs) or 47329/1212.64 ~ 39 Stamina
How much DeltaArmor do I need for 1% extra EH?
DeltaArmor = (BaseArmor + Armor) / 100 = 49841/100 = 498.4 Armor
As (I hope) you can see the ICC doesn't matter at all here. (And by doing DeltaArmor/DeltaStam we get the 12.77 you had before)

If not I'll try to make it even more clear by setting Buffs to 10 (removing BoK + talents)
Too bad I don't know the base hp + CS combined so I'll just say it's 10k: (this example is only meant to show a difference not actual numbers)
DeltaStam = (BaseHP + Stam) / 100 = 40783/100 ~ 40.8 stam => increasing EH by 1% without stamina modifiers takes more stamina than before (but it's still cheaper than armor)

Now what happens if magical damage is involved (your formula is also wrong here it can never be 1+%magic damage, because if 100% of the damage done would be magical your formula would only double the value of stamina compared to armor, which can't be true because then the value of armor is exactly 0 => it must be ...*1/(1-%magic)

Let's assume you take a Soul reaper that does ~ 50k damage (the rest of the attacks that kill you are autohits)
To increase your EH by 1% with stamina you still need 39
For Armor it looks different now, because only the health you have left after this huge magical attack will be affected by armor:
DeltaArmor = HealthBefore/HealthLeft * (BaseArmor + Armor) / 100 = 47329*ICC/(47329*ICC-50k) * 498.4 = 2660 Armor for 1% health with the 30% ICC buff and without the ICC buff you would already be dead meat.
=> Armor is bad if a high percantage of damage taken before death is of unmitigatable nature.

But this also works the other way round: (assuming pure physical like saurfang and some earth shied + hots or stupid FoLs adding up to 10k hp)
DeltaStam = ICC*(BaseHP+10k+Stam*Buffs)/(100*Buffs*ICC) or 47329+10k/1212.64 ~ 47 Stamina
DeltaArmor = HealthBefore/HealthLeft * (BaseArmor + Armor) / 100 = 47329*ICC/((47329+10k)*ICC) * 498.4 = 411.46 Armor needed for 1%
=> At this point no matter if you have the ICC buff or not Stamina will loose to Armor.

Ok, I have tried being polite here, however, the equation you linked isn't a Stamina trade off equation in terms of Effective Health!
Effective Health is a measurement of breathing room for your healers, Aka No heals! You "fixing" my equation only removed Armour diminishing Returns and writing 130% is the same as I had written but in simpler terms you just shortened it.

You have made several errors in your working out. Firstly what on earth is Delta stamina you have mindlessly thrown numbers together and called the equations. I'm not going to go any further because clearly myself alone will not be able to persuade you of this.

I'm reposting this to Maintankadin where you will get far more detailed answer from players who understand this far better than I do(however my working is based upon their equations).

EDIT:Thread can be found on Maintankadin under Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations.

1) Ok, I have tried being polite here, however, the equation you linked isn't a Stamina trade off equation in terms of Effective Health!
2) Effective Health is a measurement of breathing room for your healers, Aka No heals!
3) You "fixing" my equation only removed Armour diminishing Returns and writing 130% is the same as I had written but in simpler terms you just shortened it.

4) You have made several errors in your working out. Firstly what on earth is Delta stamina you have mindlessly thrown numbers together and called the equations. I'm not going to go any further because clearly myself alone will not be able to persuade you of this.

5) Thread can be found on Maintankadin under Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations.

1) If you always do DeltaStam/DeltaArmor in my equations you get the exact same values as you get with your stamina tradeoffs, both of them show how much Stam you need for 1% more EH compared to how much armor you need for the same amount of EH.
2) Yes it is, but if you really get 0 heals in a death scenario you should blame your healers and not your gear even getting only 10k of heal before a death is pathetic.
3) I didn't remove armor diminishing return I just didn't want to write 83*... - 23k.... Which is just the same as "base armor" ~ 16.6k and again you leaving out the 130% in the last part of the equation is the error.

4) And that's why you've posted a link, that proves me right and you wrong

The answer that was posted to your thread and it shows theckd saying the same thing as I did and goes as far as to say that armor scales even better with the buff, because the EH threshold can be reached earlier and mitigation > hp.

Ok from reviewing discussion taking place here and on Maintankadin, I have noticed that Armour does increase in value compared to stamina in a real raid scenario where heals are being applied because of the increased Healing throughput.

While we're on the same page though((BaseArmor)+CurArmor) does not properly represent Armour DR. How to do this was explained above.

While my equation wasn't incorrect in determining Stamina vs armour without heals it's become quite clear that these trade-offs just won't cut it when gearing for an EH threshold in progression content.

While we're on the same page though((BaseArmor)+CurArmor) does not properly represent Armour DR. How to do this was explained above.

How are we different in saying:
(16.6k + 33k) and

((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)

? In both cases your "physical health" is 50k. There are no "real" diminishing returns on armor it's just that the multiplier needs to be turned around or else it would be more of exponential nature (well not exactly, but it grows really really really fast)

Because I don't just say ((467.5*83-22167.5)+33206)
I say:
Armour/((467.5*83-22167.5)+Armour)

Rather than just ((467.5*83-22167.5)+Armour)
Which in other words is (16.6k+Armour)
So it becomes Armour/(16.6k+Armour)
As we increase the amount of armour the more armour is lost.
The exact definition of Diminishing Returns.

And I tell you, that this form is misleading ,because it makes people tend to believe, that a higher amount of armor makes armor less valuable which is just... wrong, because it scales in the same manner as health does and because of that I prefer to use the EH formula, which uses Armor+X as a multiplier instead of the %damage taken which uses armor as a divisor (and because of that makes it looks like it has DR).