Okay, so just tell me why you do believe in a higher power. We haven't established that yet. I've told you why I do not believe, just like I don't believe in unicorns, the boogie man, and other mythical creatures. From what I've gathered, you believe because you do not see a strong enough argument to believe otherwise? You're a smart guy, why believe in something that has no evidence. How come when a crazy person claims they've spoken or seen 'god' we write them off as crazy, but when millions upon millions do it, we call it religion(I butchered the quote)

Are you saying you believe the world is only 4,000 years old? That's a hard pill to swallow, especially when there's evidence that proves that to be false, yet, people still believe it.

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For your last question, about the age of the earth... I don't believe that, and I also don't necessarily believe science is right on the money with their estimations either... one sounds more qualified, and as we learned in school, geological study makes sense (hence the word geo"logical"), but I still wouldn't doubt that in a thousand years whatever we believe now will seem as preposterous as believing the world is flat is now.

...it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for me to properly explain or even summarize what it is that I've observed as a pattern in my life that makes me believe in a higher power and try to understand or communicate with it. I would be classed as the crazy man before I'd be classed as a preacher, and that's a given. "if you walked in my shoes then you would be just like me", and as much as I don't know what the color red looks like to you, the same goes for your understanding of my perception. What I see looks, feels, tastes, smells, and sounds real and logical on so many levels personally that I can't deny what I know, anymore than you could deny what affirms your contrary beliefs.

Everything is a belief IMO... absolutely everything. To simply accept and acknowledge your own existence, despite the scientific understanding of what comprises matter, is what keeps us sentient and tied together into physical form at a molecular level. The reason we can't walk through walls, I feel, is the same reason we can exist at all, and touch solid objects - skewed perception, ego, and delusion that anything we perceive with our eyes is reality.

My own life, and I won't get too personal, has been trials and tribulations from birth... same for almost all my family. I write about it in music and poetry, I tell stories to friends and open ears, and that's part of my heritage. I never ask for material wealth or selfish gain, but only for protection, safety and whatever it is that I am supposed to receive, as if God is there and is listening. It would be arrogant of me to assume what's best for me or others, so I try to stay humble and keep my prayers and thoughts open ended and rhetorical, and let my free will take on a ragdoll state, bouncing in the tumultuous current of life like a raft lost at sea.

All I can say, is that when I ask for my resolve to be strengthened, for my path to be laid before me, for my adversaries and those that wish to harm me to struggle in vain and attack to no avail... it happens, and my resolve is both my own, that of my heritage and my ancestry, and what I feel to be something else holding me in it's graces and acting as my life preserver for so long as I acknowledge it's existence and try to coalesce with it's subtle direction - for me to be exactly when, where, how, and why I was at any point where things were life and death for me, and to come out without a scratch and still stand is miraculous to me and the forethought and planning that must go into multitasking so many outcomes for so much sentient and non sentient life in so many multiverses in so many timelines to provide even single moments of reprise and joy to a person for but a fleeting moment... is so astounding to me, so far beyond mine or anybody else's comprehension and unless it can be proven that circumstance and coincidence have scientific explanations down from the alpha to the omega for any, every, and all instances that have ever existed and will exist, then I have no choice but to be thankful for the fact I'm allowed to even exist and still live amidst this chaotic struggle of creation and destruction that is the universe, let alone the careful balance of life and death that is survival of the fittest and human civilization.

When I'm not asking... I am lost, completely open and vulnerable and have almost no recourse or even consolation in times of need. Fear of mortality creates many things, from spiritual beliefs, to houses, to methods of reason and rationale.

I could testify in ways that would marvel a believer, but would only sound crazy to another - and incite a myriad of reactions in the gray area, depending on how much a person can relate to or empathize with my experiences, as you said about writing itself - relevance is subjective in all things. I'm not trying to dissuade you from your thoughts, only justify my own because it came up. That topics obviously more relevant to both of us than 2Pac's legacy.

Long post, sorry.

[youtube]71w2zdncfj8[/youtube] I'm not a Christian rapper though, or preaching... just opening up.

No it doesn't. The "how's" and the "why's" are not the same. WHY were human beings given thumbs? WHY weren't dogs?

Because we evolved. There's a process that each species takes. Did you read 'The Origin of Species'? This, and Natural selection explains this.

WHY does a man feel sexually aroused when he's around a woman? WHY does my dick fit perfectly into that ho's snatch? WHY was Man built to be sexually compatible with Woman to create life?

There's a design there. There's a harmony.

So I take it you believe in Intelligent Design then. Well if you want to argue like that, why are there homosexuals? If your deity was such a perfect creator, why would he take the time to 'create' homosexuality'? I don't get where you're going with this analogy, but I don't think it's very constructive. The smallest animals can reproduce, but do I believe it's due to some divine power? Of course not

Damn, you're really close minded. Take this scenario.

Let's assume it's several thousands of years from now and we've become a super-intelligent species capable of highly advanced technology. Let's say we have the power to create life. You know, almost like a highly evolved android. It looks like a human and functions just like a human. Let's say we create a male and female android.

Still with me? Good.

We already have the power to create and clone life

Not only have we created the male and the female androids, we've also set aside for them an artificially created environment on a distant planet. We were able to replicate everything from the water all the way down to the air they breathe. Pretty much, everything on the planet was created by us for them to utilize. The water, the air, the atmosphere, the earth... everything.

Hope you're still with me.

This analogy is making me lose my interest

Okay so we built these two androids and what not, and we built their planet. So we transport the lifeless creations onto the fake planet, leave them there, and take off. After we leave, we then "activate" the two androids and they wake up for the first time.

Here's what I'm getting at.

Those two androids will eventually procreate, and so on, and so on. It will take millions of years for a civilization, like ours now, to exist on that planet. It will take hundreds of thousands of years before they even know what "air" is and what "water" is. It will take them millions more to understand the periodic table of elements. But no matter what they learn, no matter what they think they know... ultimately they and everything around them was created by us. Their oxygen isn't natural. It was created by us. Their water isn't natural. It was created by us.

So how long before their scientific research leads them to us? How long before they realize WE are behind everything?
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The moral of the story? We don't know everything. Science is just our way of trying to figure out how the world around us works. The more we grow, the more we learn. The more we learn, the more we find out we were wrong. All we can do is theorize based on what we know NOW. A faucet with running water is common today, but if you took a time machine and brought one back millions of years ago they'd think you were a miracle worker or God himself. Who knows what we will be capable of in a million years? Who knows what we'll discover about ourselves and the world around us?

In short, don't believe everything you see. Science isn't 100% fact.

Dawkins argues that Science does not have ALL the answers, but it does offer up answers. Instead of blindly following something with NO proof at all. You said it yourself, Science is the way we figure out how the world works, not some dated book created by a human. I'm not trying to live in the future, I'm talking about what you can actually touch and hold. What material evidence do you have for 'God's' power? Don't even get me started on the resurrection.....

For your last question, about the age of the earth... I don't believe that, and I also don't necessarily believe science is right on the money with their estimations either... one sounds more qualified, and as we learned in school, geological study makes sense (hence the word geo"logical"), but I still wouldn't doubt that in a thousand years whatever we believe now will seem as preposterous as believing the world is flat is now.

That's what I'm getting out. Science DOES offer up a logical explanation, while religion does not. If everyone likes to claim they're logical thinkers, why is it so hard to understand the evidence there IS, versus no evidence at all

...it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for me to properly explain or even summarize what it is that I've observed as a pattern in my life that makes me believe in a higher power and try to understand or communicate with it. I would be classed as the crazy man before I'd be classed as a preacher, and that's a given. "if you walked in my shoes then you would be just like me", and as much as I don't know what the color red looks like to you, the same goes for your understanding of my perception. What I see looks, feels, tastes, smells, and sounds real and logical on so many levels personally that I can't deny what I know, anymore than you could deny what affirms your contrary beliefs.

I'm not here to deny or belittle what you've gone through in your life personally, or what you feel you've been privy to. All I'm saying is that from my point of view, I believe certain things. If you believing in a deity keeps you sane and prevents you from making the world far worse than it already it is, then that's cool.

Everything is a belief IMO... absolutely everything. To simply accept and acknowledge your own existence, despite the scientific understanding of what comprises matter, is what keeps us sentient and tied together into physical form at a molecular level. The reason we can't walk through walls, I feel, is the same reason we can exist at all, and touch solid objects - skewed perception, ego, and delusion that anything we perceive with our eyes is reality.

Here's why I disagree. Science has PROVEN that certain things aren't up for debate. With all the evidence gathered from years and years, we no longer have to simply blindly believe, we actually know. Science doesn't try to skew things, it just shows you the facts and even if you don't want to accept them, you should realize they are facts and they are real

My own life, and I won't get too personal, has been trials and tribulations from birth... same for almost all my family. I write about it in music and poetry, I tell stories to friends and open ears, and that's part of my heritage. I never ask for material wealth or selfish gain, but only for protection, safety and whatever it is that I am supposed to receive, as if God is there and is listening. It would be arrogant of me to assume what's best for me or others, so I try to stay humble and keep my prayers and thoughts open ended and rhetorical, and let my free will take on a ragdoll state, bouncing in the tumultuous current of life like a raft lost at sea.

Like I said earlier, if your belief in something keeps you happy, then that's cool

All I can say, is that when I ask for my resolve to be strengthened, for my path to be laid before me, for my adversaries and those that wish to harm me to struggle in vain and attack to no avail... it happens, and my resolve is both my own, that of my heritage and my ancestry, and what I feel to be something else holding me in it's graces and acting as my life preserver for so long as I acknowledge it's existence and try to coalesce with it's subtle direction - for me to be exactly when, where, how, and why I was at any point where things were life and death for me, and to come out without a scratch and still stand is miraculous to me and the forethought and planning that must go into multitasking so many outcomes for so much sentient and non sentient life in so many multiverses in so many timelines to provide even single moments of reprise and joy to a person for but a fleeting moment... is so astounding to me, so far beyond mine or anybody else's comprehension and unless it can be proven that circumstance and coincidence have scientific explanations down from the alpha to the omega for any, every, and all instances that have ever existed and will exist, then I have no choice but to be thankful for the fact I'm allowed to even exist and still live amidst this chaotic struggle of creation and destruction that is the universe, let alone the careful balance of life and death that is survival of the fittest and human civilization.

There isn't really anything in there for me to refute, it's mostly personal experience. I can't tell you what you have, or have not experienced

When I'm not asking... I am lost, completely open and vulnerable and have almost no recourse or even consolation in times of need. Fear of mortality creates many things, from spiritual beliefs, to houses, to methods of reason and rationale.

I could testify in ways that would marvel a believer, but would only sound crazy to another - and incite a myriad of reactions in the gray area, depending on how much a person can relate to or empathize with my experiences, as you said about writing itself - relevance is subjective in all things. I'm not trying to dissuade you from your thoughts, only justify my own because it came up. That topics obviously more relevant to both of us than 2Pac's legacy.

Long post, sorry.

[youtube]71w2zdncfj8[/youtube] I'm not a Christian rapper though, or preaching... just opening up.

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So, what religion are you? I don't mind you justifying your thoughts, that's the best way to get them across.

He grew up poor, in an area where drug dealing was commonplace, he was smart, and has shown a sense of business savvy. Damn near anyone that fulfills those prerequisites has sold drugs. Period.

Oh yea, I LOVE gangsta rap. Just check out my love for Tupac, you fucking retard.

It's stupid to assume someone with a good amount of motivation and huge lack of means would sell drugs? I don't give a fuck if you are black, you have NO IDEA what the hood is like.

Lol acting like I was always like this. I love people like you who think that just because someone tries to better themselves, it means that they are soft. I'm not gonna sit here and "prove my realness" to you, I've done that to people in real life through the shit I've done and life I lived. Now, after realizing that will take me nowhere but jail or an early grave, I am in school trying to make a better life for myself, my brothers, and my family. You can go ahead and act like it's cool to perpetuate stereotypes if you want, it'll just give white people more reasons to be racist.

And what about impressing girls? Seriously bro, you are either mentally ill or mentally disabled...

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You say you respect Jay-z's intelligence? You say Jay-Z is smart? And you think the "smart" thing to do if you grew up poor and live in a drug-infested neighborhood is sell drugs?

Yea, I'd say you listen to too much gangsta rap. If not, you've seen too many gangsta movies.

You're just a dumb white boy. The proof is that the system works for you and you still got put in jail by the cops. You need school, for real.

Bottom line: Pac was shot on two occasions that we know of, got set up and spent significant time in jail for some bullshit, and died a violent death.

Meanwhile, no one's shooting at you. Plus you did time because you were stupid enough to do business with a snitch. Jail scared you so now you're in school tryna "do the right thing" .......no, don't speak on Pac being fake, you fake.

And you think the "smart" thing to do if you grew up poor and live in a drug-infested neighborhood is sell drugs?

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Care to show me where I said that? You can't because I didn't.

You're just a dumb white boy. The proof is that the system works for you and you still got put in jail by the cops. You need school, for real.

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Probably just like the one your girl sucked off .

Bottom line: Pac was shot on two occasions that we know of, got set up and spent significant time in jail for some bullshit, and died a violent death.

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Reagen got shot. Is he gangster? Martha Stewart spent a long time in jail on some BS, is she gangster? JFK died a violent death, was he a gangster?

Meanwhile, no one's shooting at you. Plus you did time because you were stupid enough to do business with a snitch. Jail scared you so now you're in school tryna "do the right thing" .......no, don't speak on Pac being fake, you fake.

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LMAO. Wow, you really know nothing.

The worst part is, you think you know everything.

Please, in all seriousness, and I mean be REAL for one second of your internet life, and answer this HONESTLY.

Yo Spanky maybe if you weren't so spiritually dead you would respect opinions different from your own instead of ridin the high horse all day.

lmao @ all these crackaz like Bill Mayer and Richard Dawkins tryna disprove God, Blind leadin the blind. Actually I believe all these mawfuckin "evolution" front men like Darwin and em actually know there is a higher power. They just carryin the devil's plan to trick the deaf, dumb, and blind.

Anywaay, Pac is the goat fo sure.

"I took a minus and now the hard times are behind us, turned into a plus now they stuck livin blinded"

Yo Spanky maybe if you weren't so spiritually dead you would respect opinions different from your own instead of ridin the high horse all day.

lmao @ all these crackaz like Bill Mayer and Richard Dawkins tryna disprove God, Blind leadin the blind. Actually I believe all these mawfuckin "evolution" front men like Darwin and em actually know there is a higher power. They just carryin the devil's plan to trick the deaf, dumb, and blind.

Anywaay, Pac is the goat fo sure.

"I took a minus and now the hard times are behind us, turned into a plus now they stuck livin blinded"

we miss you God, hip hop aint been the same..

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I don't really understand how race has anything to do with belief.

To use a funny quote, Old Dogg Says "Black people have too much damn religion anyway."

Either way, I'm not on a high horse. Spiritually dead? What does that even mean? You mean something you can't see, touch, speak with, but I'm just supposed to believe it's around. By this logic, I should believe in Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny, and other fictional characters.

I do respect other's opinions, I'm having a civil discussion with Ninjamic.

I feel bad for you even more now that you listen to Aesop Rock and your not white ... that always kills me too. You know you listened to that shit in college and many other goof troops kickin that abstract garbage.

Fat Boy or not I'm getting ass on a reg, while you be out in Korea fucking women that look like lil boys.

@ spanky... I don't go anywhere to worship, unless you count taking scenery in... and I don't worship together with other people. I never went to church really at all.

I know that literally, a religion is merely a disciplined routine tied to spirituality and belief, so I don't know what you'd call me even though it's just me and what I know. I don't consider myself agnostic though, because I talk to alot of agnostics and have entirely different views and beliefs. It's not that I'm unsure... I'm sure of it, but approach my certainty and faith with logic and reason as much as I can, and try to rationalize that the irrationality of spirituality is the only way it can be rational.

I definitely don't deny science, or think any of that creationist shit belongs in public school... I just don't feel that any methods from the mind of man will ever be anything less than imperfect, and has to be challenged just like faith. One of the things Dawkins champions is that science questions itself by practice, but I don't feel that science itself is ever questioned with it's own methods or any outside methods for it become more than an essentially controlled variable to test other variables with.

I feel bad for you even more now that you listen to Aesop Rock and your not white ... that always kills me too. You know you listened to that shit in college and many other goof troops kickin that abstract garbage.

Fat Boy or not I'm getting ass on a reg, while you be out in Korea fucking women that look like lil boys.

I definitely don't deny science, or think any of that creationist shit belongs in public school... I just don't feel that any methods from the mind of man will ever be anything less than imperfect, and has to be challenged just like faith. One of the things Dawkins champions is that science questions itself by practice, but I don't feel that science itself is ever questioned with it's own methods or any outside methods for it become more than an essentially controlled variable to test other variables with.

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See, I could understand this if Science never proved anything. As it stands, Science is the answer for many things we couldn't answer before. When it comes to faith, what has it really answered or proven? When does faith challenge itself? That's the one thing that I don't understand. Faith is never really tested because there's nothing to test. Just because we cannot physically test something and see results from it is a good enough reason for me to not buy into anything beyond Science.

The reason Science doesn't have to question their methods is because these same methods have been proven. It would be one thing if Science had not cured, or discovered anything over the years, but it has.

Merit and intention should never replace the need for evidence... otherwise distributing untested vaccines in hopes that they help would be ok.

Faith tests itself all the time, or it is not true faith... if it's never tested, then it's never proven. It's all talk and no walk.

You know what the concept of nothingness is... it cannot be sensed in anyway. It is neither all white, nor all black. All clear is incomprehensible, and technically, would be something, rather than nothing. Things that are beyond sensory comprehension are known by all of us, accepted by some, and not by others. That is faith, belief without question... or acting on despite not truly knowing, resting on whatever means of understanding and adapting that you have, and having faith that you'll still be ok otherwise, and never fall victim to your own fear and weakness.

One thing I really dislike, like the generalization of spirituality or beliefs as organized religion, is the term "science" as an all encompassing order; and I'm guilty of it too. It's a tool, used by mankind to achieve greater ends for themselves... science is powerless without man, and even if the laws of physics act on their own, without man to perceive them they are misunderstood, meaningless, unrecorded to the point of non-existence and classed as life rather than scientific reasoning. It's individuals and teams of people that do all this work of noble intent, not science itself.

I feel that it's as dangerous to make "science" a religion, as it is to blindly follow another man's written words without question.

I don't object to science, it's part of my life... I'm not really attacking science. I never like coming off like that... good is good, bad is bad, but that's all subjective really, and relativity changes in time.

I know stupid religious orders and actual knowledge have clashed since the dawn of civilization, but I remember when I was a kid, science was a school subject and was how stuff worked/how to do stuff, not a way of life.

Merit and intention should never replace the need for evidence... otherwise distributing untested vaccines in hopes that they help would be ok.

Faith tests itself all the time, or it is not true faith... if it's never tested, then it's never proven. It's all talk and no walk.

You know what the concept of nothingness is... it cannot be sensed in anyway. It is neither all white, nor all black. All clear is incomprehensible, and technically, would be something, rather than nothing. Things that are beyond sensory comprehension are known by all of us, accepted by some, and not by others. That is faith, belief without question... or acting on despite not truly knowing, resting on whatever means of understanding and adapting that you have, and having faith that you'll still be ok otherwise, and never fall victim to your own fear and weakness.

One thing I really dislike, like the generalization of spirituality or beliefs as organized religion, is the term "science" as an all encompassing order; and I'm guilty of it too. It's a tool, used by mankind to achieve greater ends for themselves... science is powerless without man, and even if the laws of physics act on their own, without man to perceive them they are misunderstood, meaningless, unrecorded to the point of non-existence and classed as life rather than scientific reasoning. It's individuals and teams of people that do all this work of noble intent, not science itself.

I feel that it's as dangerous to make "science" a religion, as it is to blindly follow another man's written words without question.

I don't object to science, it's part of my life... I'm not really attacking science. I never like coming off like that... good is good, bad is bad, but that's all subjective really, and relativity changes in time.

I know stupid religious orders and actual knowledge have clashed since the dawn of civilization, but I remember when I was a kid, science was a school subject and was how stuff worked/how to do stuff, not a way of life.

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But that's what I'm getting at(in reference to science as a religion). I'm not worshiping science, nor am I worshiping any scientists. All I'm doing is being rational and taking what I can see and understand, compared to what I have never seen and have never seen any documented evidence for. I don't live my life the way a scientist lives his or her life, I live my life the way that I see fit. If I question something morally, I do not need to look to a higher power, or even a scientist to know what is right and wrong. That is what's great about human beings, there is an inherent ability for us to distinguish between the two.

You know what else is powerless without man? Religion! Look at how many religious frauds there are out there peddling bogus claims just to rake large amounts of money in. You're correct about it being teams of people to do noble work, but what if they didn't care about finding out answers and just attributed things to a deity? What if Jonas Salk just chalked up Polio to something created by a god and if he wanted it undone, then the god would do it himself?

Like I've said before, I don't look to science to guide me with moral decisions, but when it comes down to it, science has contributed more documented evidence to cures and vaccinations than the 'great book'.

The Bible, a book written by men years and years ago that never changes has holes all throughout. If this book managed to change itself, fix its errors, then maybe so many people wouldn't tear it down.

Do I think all religion is bad? No, some religions help raise proper members of society and instills values in children that needs to be instilled. Do I think I could do the very same without the introduction of a deity to a child? Yes.