broncoeurofan wrote:With all the headlines and articles that the post put forth in the last 24 hours defending Manning's arm-strength, there is only one message to be heard: Get ready for the "McDinkdunk 2.0" offense in 2012.

You remember how that one ended up in 2010, right? 11 men in the box defending the run and blitzing our 36 year-old fresh-out-of-rehab QB. Ouch.

BroncoCrusader wrote:Nope, its because the fringe anti-TT fanbase, more concerned with pretty passes than wins, is irrational and you can't have ANY decent exchange of ideas with them without it coming back to Tebow's fault somehow.

...

So no, you can't have a rational exchange of ideas with inherently irrational people. I mean the evidence is a few posts up, where I am being told John Elway is a better Super Bowl QB than Joe effin Montana. Utterly nonsense and completely emotionally-driven irrationality.

Here's the thing:

It seems anyone who doesn't agree with your view of Tim Tebow is viewed by you as fringe anti-TT and falls under your made-up term TTDS.

IMO, your views are the ones that are sometimes outside reasonable discussion. The idea that the Broncos must win a Super Bowl immediately in 2012 or the signing of Peyton Manning represents an epic failure is so far beyond a justifiable position, it's ridiculous to the point of indefensible. And yet you still won't back off of it.

4-12 and the #2 pick in the draft to Super Bowl Champions in 2 years or its an epic bust? You know as well as I do that's an absolutely unfair and unreasonable position to take. Exactly how many Super Bowls have the Broncos won in their entire franchise history?

Not one QB in the NFL, no matter how good, can guarantee a Super Bowl victory in any given season. Not one team is ever even close to being favored against the field to win a Super Bowl before the season begins.

The current betting odds are that Broncos are 12-1 to win the Super Bowlnext year (you bet $1000, you win $12,000). The odds say that those who set the lines and those who gamble don't think it is likely the Broncos will win the Super Bowl. Yet only 3 teams are favored more. The Packers are the betting favorites at 6.5-1. No team is anywhere remotely close to a 50-50 proposition. Manning did make a difference though in the betting line. The Broncos were 70-1 or 75-1 to win the Super Bowl before they signed Manning.

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on various Broncos related points (we have in the past, amicably at times), but there has to be some sense of balance coming from your side.

There are valid points pro and con concerning Tebow's performance last year and his future as an NFL QB. There are valid arguments pro and con concerning the decisions Elway has made in charge of the Broncos, including the decision to pursue and sing Peyton.

Except many of those who don't have the same opinion you do concerning Tebow are not expressing opinions on the fringe outside the mainstream; in fact, many of the views you have attempted to strongly attack since last year are very much in line with the thought process of Elway and most other executives in charge of personnel throughout the league.

I agree that a fan shouldn't automatically believe every decision Elway or Fox makes is above question or even criticism. I also agree that we don't know yet how strong the Broncos will draft under Elway and that outside of Miller and possibly Franklin, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the draft last year. Nobody knows for sure one way or the other how they drafted this year. Only time will tell.

But Elway has not made the same kind of reckless decisions McDaniels did: Peyton Manning is not Kyle Orton or Matt Cassel. Tim Tebow is not Jay Cutler. Instead, there has been intelligent and considered thought behind the moves that have been made since John has been in charge with clear championship goals in mind, including the hiring of John Fox and the move to acquire Peyton Manning.

I don't know why you are taking such strong negative positions on just about every choice John has made since he has been hired and going so far as to call him juvenile names like "horseface".

I personally think it's pretty clear the Broncos have improved since the time Elway was hired. The overall coaching staff is better, and both the offense and defense will likely be much improved in 2012, especially from the team John inherited in 2010. How is that not a positive development? And why are you so sure Tim is a better NFL prospect at QB over Brock anyway?

I've said my peace. Feel free to address any or all points.

First off, Peyton is taking a team which, no matter HOW improbably, won a playoff game, last year. Mentioning 4-12 is ludicrous...Timmy took a 1-4 team and took it to the playoffs. According to Timmy's numerous detractors, Peyton is HUGE upgrade--so huge in fact, Timmy was determined to be expendable. An "improved" team, from last year, PLUS Peyton, ought to spell an immediate Super Bowl contender!! If this team isn't, yes, getting Peyton was a short-sighted, hired-gun approach which will be deemed a very bad gamble--VERY BAD!

You quote Las Vegas odds, while poo-pooing the opinions of longtime watchers of everything Broncos. What were the odds against the Broncos doing ANYTHING they did, last year? I don't follow the oddsmakers but weren't the Broncos 13 1/2 point underdogs against the Steelers?

As for whom is the better "prospect," Timmy or BO...that's giving BO WAY too much credit. Timmy has moved beyond the "prospect" stage in his career. He PROVED he was able to succeed in the NFL. It might not have been in the prototypical fashion, but his RESULTS in Denver are indelibly etched in NFL history. Other than bring a moribund franchise to a Super Bowl win (I wonder what THOSE odds were!), he did more than even his strongest advocates believed he could do in the situation he was placed.

BO, on the other hand, whose only experience is a little more than one year, on a losing program (how highly recruited could he have been if he chose ASU, a bottom-feeder in the weak PAC 12?), which he made no better, whose throwing motion needs to be changed and was projected as a 3rd or 4th rounder, IS, INDEED, a "prospect." He's the kind of pick for which desperate teams REACH, in hopes of plucking a diamond in the rough. If he doesn't succeed, so what? Well, that would be the case had he not been Timmy's replacement. He's far from NFL ready and hasn't DISPLAYED the leadership qualities Timmy has--IN SPADES! Nope, if Peyton goes down--even if it's totally unrelated to his nerve issue--and the Broncos season goes down the tubes, Elway will--and should--be blamed for making a monumental mistake...all to avoid some "distractions."

It doesn't even matter what happens in NY. Why? Because we all saw what Timmy is capable of doing--at quarterback of the Denver Broncos.

Surely, we're all speculating at this point in the not-even-preseason-yet. Hey, that's what fans do. That Timmy and Jay Cutler are still in the conversation just shows how passionate Broncos fans are. We're great prognosticators and flawless second-guessers.

I applaud you for engaging in the debate without stooping to name-calling (I, sadly, did, when the old new coach sent Cutler packing) and see nothing wrong with continuing the what-ifs, being there's so little else to discuss. I will say this, however...those who disparage Timmy, do it for reasons OTHER than what he produces on the field. Either they differ from him, religiously, or just don't like his style--or lack thereof.

I, and many others, take umbrage with those who ignore results and feel the need to slam him. I've never had second and third favorite teams--always been a Broncos fan--until now. I now follow the Bears and, will now pull for the Jets--unless, of course, they're facing the Broncos. In that case, I'll hope Jay or Timmy do well--just not well enough to beat the Broncos. Alas, if our doomsday scenario unfolds, meaningful games against playoff caliber teams like the Bears and Jets might be as rare as a BO highlight...

The reason people (myself included) bring up throwing incompletions is that after the first set of OTA's all the pro EFM's said was how great it was to have a real QB, the ball never hit the ground, he didn't bounce passes, hit the receivers in stride...etc. All the while taking shots at the former QB for throwing 2 picks.

Now that in this set of OTA's PM isn't as sharp and he is missing throws we are being told why make a big deal out of it, it's just OTA's. Again can't have it both ways. (that's for you Spider)

Ah! Contrare bona mi. There's a big difference between a few timing issues and bouncing balls off the dirt, creaming the water boy on the sideline with errant passes and not having a clue when the receiver is open. Once they get the timing issue down you'll forget about your boy the X and start really enjoying professional football at it's finest.

As a matter of fact all you guys crying over the X just need to start watching with your eyes and not with your hearts

speaking of watching with your eyes and not your heart...don't think TT ever hit the waterboy, miles the mascot or even thunder the horse...I realize it makes your point more humorous. But I think you are confusing him with Nuke LaLoosh And plenty of QB's throw the ball into the seats and sidelines to avoid a sack...even the precious PM

Not in practice while wearing the red jersey though

This close // to another Lombardi and there are posters who act like we went 3-13 instead if 13-3?

Every single one of those men were/are great football players and to try and compare which would have done better given X players and Y coaches is not only fruitless, but childish.

What if Tebow would have had Jerry Rice, Marving Harrison, Terrel Davis and Rathman?

What if Elway would have played for the Indy Colts instead of playing in Denver for Dan Reeves? How many SBs would Elway NOT have played in?

Blah, blah, blah...on and on and on...

Romper room: I know more than you because I can search the web for xyz stats....but I know more than you because I've been a Broncos fans since 1960...

Take a time out.....all of you!

Good point....like a number of us said yesterday there is no way to pick one person as the greatest QB of all time because of all the variables. I found it funny though that you mentioned the X in that elite group. Let's say that he had Rice, Taylor, Clark, Francis, Solomon, Sharpe, Rod Smith, Eddie Mack or any number of great NFL receivers that you would like to add to that list. As soon as he became the starter they would all have asked to be traded just like Royal and Lloyd did once he became starter for the Broncos

This close // to another Lombardi and there are posters who act like we went 3-13 instead if 13-3?

retro-grouch wrote:The preseason arm strength thing has always been a big red herring. First, it was clear that Manning's arm was in decent shape back in March.

The problem with Manning, with his arm and his neck and his entire body, is not about whether he can go out and play a bunch of football games and play really well (barring bad luck) The problem is whether he can play nineteen or twenty games and do his best work in the last two games.

Older QBs often play at a high level but fall just short of the level needed for championships. Maybe they are not the weakest link on their teams, but that's the nature of the position. The championship is usually won by a team with a man on fire behind center. Thing about the QBs who hoisted Lombardi trophies and think about the post season performances. Some of those guys were just out of control.

I took a friend of mine to a pretty nice fishing hole last week. We saw a couple of twenty-something-inch trout flying through the air, spitting size twenty midge flies out, and laughing at us at they splashed down. My friend remarked, "It's a good problem to have".

This is the thing the post Tebow grief support network can't seem to grasp. Having a QB who can play at an incredibly high level but has question marks about his ability to go the distance is a much better problem to have than having a QB who might play at an acceptable level five years from now, or never.

The PTGS Network DOES seem to grasp the difference between a WIN and a LOSS, however. Long before most of us had even HEARD of Timmy, we knew a LOT about LOSING...and very LITTLE of the playoffs--even LESS about WINNING PLAYOFF GAMES.

We all must pray we learn ANYTHING about, WTFIU, (Who The F Is Up) NOW? The one acronym nobody wants to experience is BO and Mr. Hanie and his sidekick would remind us, too well, of the days of too few wins and no playoff victories--BT (Before Timmy).

Din, why can't you get it through your head that 9-7 with a 45% completion rating, most 3 and outs and lowest points per game isn't all that impressive

This close // to another Lombardi and there are posters who act like we went 3-13 instead if 13-3?

Dino wrote:Timmy also took a team in a 1-4 hole and went 7-4--that's 7 games with Timmy at quarterback, in which the Broncos won. In total, the Broncos scored more points than their opposition, in EIGHT games, seven in the regular season and one in the playoffs. In all EIGHT games in which the Broncos outscored their opponents, it was determined by the NFL that in ALL EIGHT INSTANCES, the Broncos WON.

Get it?

And the offense scored more than 18 points only 3 times in his 11 starts (against the #31 and #29 scoring and #31 total defense in the NFL) and even lost a game when the defense allowed only 7.

The Broncos finished with their lowest NFL ranking in points scored in the history of the franchise and their lowest NFL ranking in total offense in almost thirty years.

And yet the former QB is the biggest reason the Broncos won 7 out of his 11 starts?

The Broncos defense allowed less than 16 points 5 times in 37 career starts with Cutler at QB from 2006-2008.

The Broncos defense allowed less than 16 points 4 times in Orton's last 27 starts.

The Broncos defense allowed less than 16 points 6 times in 11 starts with Tebow last year.

Ask Dan Marino, he, the holder of every significant passing record when he retired, he, who played in one, stinking Super Bowl, he, whose team scored a gazillion points per game...and still didn't win squat, if he'd have rather quarterbacked TWO NATIONAL CHAMPIONS in college and rallied his first pro team from insurmountable odds, to the record Timmy and the Broncos achieved, last year.

As Herm Edwards most famously stated: "You play to WIN THE GAME!" The winning team isn't grilled for how many 3 and outs it had or it's completion percentage or it's quarterback rating...that just doesn't happen...well, except around here.

Timmy played about a season's worth of games, broken up into two years, under different head coaches with different philosophies, had no training camp before a season that saw him lead his team to one of the most startling turnarounds in the history of the NFL...and all you can say is completion percentage? That's just unbelievable...

Maybe before you even go there you should wait and see how many SB appearances has in his career

This close // to another Lombardi and there are posters who act like we went 3-13 instead if 13-3?

BroncoCrusader wrote:Nope, its because the fringe anti-TT fanbase, more concerned with pretty passes than wins, is irrational and you can't have ANY decent exchange of ideas with them without it coming back to Tebow's fault somehow.

...

So no, you can't have a rational exchange of ideas with inherently irrational people. I mean the evidence is a few posts up, where I am being told John Elway is a better Super Bowl QB than Joe effin Montana. Utterly nonsense and completely emotionally-driven irrationality.

Here's the thing:

It seems anyone who doesn't agree with your view of Tim Tebow is viewed by you as fringe anti-TT and falls under your made-up term TTDS.

KZ you miss the point. The point is the irrational fringe anti-TT crowd CAN NOT give one shred of credit to TT for anything. Does TT need to improve as a passer? Hell yeah. I am a reasonable man and have listed Tim's shortfalls numerous times. However as a fan i was also excited by the winning he did on the field. There is a fringe anti-TT crowd that will not give the kid one ounce of credit for anything positive that happened last year, while blaming him 100% for everything negative that happened last year. You know who they are.

IMO, your views are the ones that are sometimes outside reasonable discussion. The idea that the Broncos must win a Super Bowl immediately in 2012 or the signing of Peyton Manning represents an epic failure is so far beyond a justifiable position, it's ridiculous to the point of indefensible. And yet you still won't back off of it.

Wow, it kinda sucks to have a discussion with someone who apparently holds "unreasonable" opinions, huh? Didja see my signature block before I changed it recently? "Highlighting absurdity by being absurd." I guess that subtle point is/was lost on you.

4-12 and the #2 pick in the draft to Super Bowl Champions in 2 years or its an epic bust? You know as well as I do that's an absolutely unfair and unreasonable position to take. Exactly how many Super Bowls have the Broncos won in their entire franchise history?

Well, all I know is the Rams went from one of the worst teams in the NFL to SB champs with their projected back-up QB in one season. In fact the dude was bagging groceries the previous season if I remember correctly, so going from 8-8 and the divisional round of the playoffs to winning the SB should not be all that difficult for Peyton Manning and the improved Denver Elways.

Not one QB in the NFL, no matter how good, can guarantee a Super Bowl victory in any given season. Not one team is ever even close to being favored against the field to win a Super Bowl before the season begins.

The current betting odds are that Broncos are 12-1 to win the Super Bowl next year (you bet $1000, you win $12,000). The odds say that those who set the lines and those who gamble don't think it is likely the Broncos will win the Super Bowl. Yet only 3 teams are favored more. The Packers are the betting favorites at 6.5-1. No team is anywhere remotely close to a 50-50 proposition. Manning did make a difference though in the betting line. The Broncos were 70-1 or 75-1 to win the Super Bowl before they signed Manning.

If I remember correctly folks were posting that after the Manning signing Denver jumped from 75-1 to 8-1. Now they're 12-1? Hmmmm, moving in the wrong direction it seems.

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on various Broncos related points (we have in the past, amicably at times), but there has to be some sense of balance coming from your side.

A sense of balance, really? There has to be a sense of balance from each side when ideas are exchanged? Wow. Maybe you should have a chat with the fringe anti-TT crowd. Or see my previous signature block.

There are valid points pro and con concerning Tebow's performance last year and his future as an NFL QB. There are valid arguments pro and con concerning the decisions Elway has made in charge of the Broncos, including the decision to pursue and sing Peyton.

Of course there are. Except the fringe anti-TT crowd is not interested in discussing the pros and cons of anything related to TT. There is plenty of evidence of that. I simply got tired of trying to engage them and have resorted to using their tactics, and now they don't like it. Surprising.

Except many of those who don't have the same opinion you do concerning Tebow are not expressing opinions on the fringe outside the mainstream; in fact, many of the views you have attempted to strongly attack since last year are very much in line with the thought process of Elway and most other executives in charge of personnel throughout the league.

What views have I "attacked?" I simply supported the guy while admitting he had flaws he needed to work on. On the contrary, I and others like me were the ones who were "attacked" by the fringe anti-TT crowd.

I agree that a fan shouldn't automatically believe every decision Elway or Fox makes is above question or even criticism. I also agree that we don't know yet how strong the Broncos will draft under Elway and that outside of Miller and possibly Franklin, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the draft last year. Nobody knows for sure one way or the other how they drafted this year. Only time will tell.

Exactly my viewpoint.

But Elway has not made the same kind of reckless decisions McDaniels did: Peyton Manning is not Kyle Orton or Matt Cassel. Tim Tebow is not Jay Cutler. Instead, there has been intelligent and considered thought behind the moves that have been made since John has been in charge with clear championship goals in mind, including the hiring of John Fox and the move to acquire Peyton Manning.

I disagree. IMO the Osweiler pick were very McD-esque. It reminded me of when McD traded BMarsh and drafted DT because, "he reminds me of Brandon Marshall." Osweiler has the same flaws in his game that TT has, and I REASONABLY posted reasons why I thought Denver would have been a better overall team had they simply kept TT to be the backup this year. However, I was attacked by the fringe anti-TT crowd for that.

I don't know why you are taking such strong negative positions on just about every choice John has made since he has been hired and going so far as to call him juvenile names like "horseface".

Highlighting absurdity by being absurd. Referring to Elway as "horseface" is no different than referring to Tebow as "The Temp" or any of the other, far more personal and hostile names directed at him during the last 12 months. Or referring to the University of Florida as "FU." Or calling me derogatory names derived from "Tebow" that now get soft-deleted from posts here. There's an old saying about people living in glass houses and what not.

I personally think it's pretty clear the Broncos have improved since the time Elway was hired. The overall coaching staff is better, and both the offense and defense will likely be much improved in 2012, especially from the team John inherited in 2010. How is that not a positive development? And why are you so sure Tim is a better NFL prospect at QB over Brock anyway?

All I'm saying is it remains to be seen. Others are calling Elway Exec of the Year and crowning Denver SB champs already. I simply highlighted that absurdity by--wait for it--being absurd. The anti-TT fringe crowd doesn't like it, oh well.

As far as Tim vs Osweiler goes, all I can say is my gut tells me Osweiler will be a bust. He is Dan McGwire version 2.0. He's slow. He's unathletic. His arm is not the "rocket" folks were saying it was. All he seemed to do was throw swing passes in college. He had a losing record in college. And more importantly he won't see the field (hopefully) for about 3 years minimum. It was a waste to draft the post-PM QB this year and before the draft I said so. Even if Manning gets hurt this year it will more than likely be Hanie replacing him, so why draft this year? Well, Elway must think Brock is a franchise QB. OK. He better be. All I'm saying.

I've said my peace. Feel free to address any or all points.

2011: Den loses road playoff game to NE by 35. Most "fans" blame QB despite Brady's 300+ yds and 6TDs. 2013: Den loses SB on neutral turf by 35 and most "fans" blame everyone BUT the QB who committed 3 TOs including a Pick-6.

BroncoCrusader wrote:Nope, its because the fringe anti-TT fanbase, more concerned with pretty passes than wins, is irrational and you can't have ANY decent exchange of ideas with them without it coming back to Tebow's fault somehow.

...

So no, you can't have a rational exchange of ideas with inherently irrational people. I mean the evidence is a few posts up, where I am being told John Elway is a better Super Bowl QB than Joe effin Montana. Utterly nonsense and completely emotionally-driven irrationality.

Here's the thing:

It seems anyone who doesn't agree with your view of Tim Tebow is viewed by you as fringe anti-TT and falls under your made-up term TTDS.

KZ you miss the point. The point is the irrational fringe anti-TT crowd CAN NOT give one shred of credit to TT for anything. Does TT need to improve as a passer? Hell yeah. I am a reasonable man and have listed Tim's shortfalls numerous times. However as a fan i was also excited by the winning he did on the field. There is a fringe anti-TT crowd that will not give the kid one ounce of credit for anything positive that happened last year, while blaming him 100% for everything negative that happened last year. You know who they are.

IMO, your views are the ones that are sometimes outside reasonable discussion. The idea that the Broncos must win a Super Bowl immediately in 2012 or the signing of Peyton Manning represents an epic failure is so far beyond a justifiable position, it's ridiculous to the point of indefensible. And yet you still won't back off of it.

Wow, it kinda sucks to have a discussion with someone who apparently holds "unreasonable" opinions, huh? Didja see my signature block before I changed it recently? "Highlighting absurdity by being absurd." I guess that subtle point is/was lost on you.

4-12 and the #2 pick in the draft to Super Bowl Champions in 2 years or its an epic bust? You know as well as I do that's an absolutely unfair and unreasonable position to take. Exactly how many Super Bowls have the Broncos won in their entire franchise history?

Well, all I know is the Rams went from one of the worst teams in the NFL to SB champs with their projected back-up QB in one season. In fact the dude was bagging groceries the previous season if I remember correctly, so going from 8-8 and the divisional round of the playoffs to winning the SB should not be all that difficult for Peyton Manning and the improved Denver Elways.

Not one QB in the NFL, no matter how good, can guarantee a Super Bowl victory in any given season. Not one team is ever even close to being favored against the field to win a Super Bowl before the season begins.

The current betting odds are that Broncos are 12-1 to win the Super Bowl next year (you bet $1000, you win $12,000). The odds say that those who set the lines and those who gamble don't think it is likely the Broncos will win the Super Bowl. Yet only 3 teams are favored more. The Packers are the betting favorites at 6.5-1. No team is anywhere remotely close to a 50-50 proposition. Manning did make a difference though in the betting line. The Broncos were 70-1 or 75-1 to win the Super Bowl before they signed Manning.

If I remember correctly folks were posting that after the Manning signing Denver jumped from 75-1 to 8-1. Now they're 12-1? Hmmmm, moving in the wrong direction it seems.

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on various Broncos related points (we have in the past, amicably at times), but there has to be some sense of balance coming from your side.

A sense of balance, really? There has to be a sense of balance from each side when ideas are exchanged? Wow. Maybe you should have a chat with the fringe anti-TT crowd. Or see my previous signature block.

There are valid points pro and con concerning Tebow's performance last year and his future as an NFL QB. There are valid arguments pro and con concerning the decisions Elway has made in charge of the Broncos, including the decision to pursue and sing Peyton.

Of course there are. Except the fringe anti-TT crowd is not interested in discussing the pros and cons of anything related to TT. [b]Not true at all. Even I have pointed out the "very few" pros about the X. It's just that there is much more downside than there is upside in regards to being a starting QB in the NFL. You guys want for him to succeed so badly all you see are the "very few" things that he CAN do. There is plenty of evidence of that. I simply got tired of trying to engage them and have resorted to using their tactics, and now they don't like it. Surprising. [/b]

Except many of those who don't have the same opinion you do concerning Tebow are not expressing opinions on the fringe outside the mainstream; in fact, many of the views you have attempted to strongly attack since last year are very much in line with the thought process of Elway and most other executives in charge of personnel throughout the league.

What views have I "attacked?" I simply supported the guy while admitting he had flaws he needed to work on. On the contrary, I and others like me were the ones who were "attacked" by the fringe anti-TT crowd.

I agree that a fan shouldn't automatically believe every decision Elway or Fox makes is above question or even criticism. I also agree that we don't know yet how strong the Broncos will draft under Elway and that outside of Miller and possibly Franklin, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the draft last year. Nobody knows for sure one way or the other how they drafted this year. Only time will tell.

Exactly my viewpoint.

But Elway has not made the same kind of reckless decisions McDaniels did: Peyton Manning is not Kyle Orton or Matt Cassel. Tim Tebow is not Jay Cutler. Instead, there has been intelligent and considered thought behind the moves that have been made since John has been in charge with clear championship goals in mind, including the hiring of John Fox and the move to acquire Peyton Manning.

I disagree. IMO the Osweiler pick were very McD-esque. It reminded me of when McD traded BMarsh and drafted DT because, "he reminds me of Brandon Marshall." Osweiler has the same flaws in his game that TT has, and I REASONABLY posted reasons why I thought Denver would have been a better overall team had they simply kept TT to be the backup this year. However, I was attacked by the fringe anti-TT crowd for that. How can you say that? Did Elway trade away extra picks to draft a DB that was too short and too slow to be effective, a TE who only had a handful of catches in college or a QB at #25 who was projected to go in the 3rd round? Maybe BO is a bit of a reach but it's not like Elway gave up the farm on someone he was anticipating to start right away like the ex-new coach did. There is absolutely no comparison between the 2.

I don't know why you are taking such strong negative positions on just about every choice John has made since he has been hired and going so far as to call him juvenile names like "horseface".

Highlighting absurdity by being absurd. Referring to Elway as "horseface" is no different than referring to Tebow as "The Temp" or any of the other, far more personal and hostile names directed at him during the last 12 months. [b]Other than the crazed fan base who really expected the temp to be anything other than a short term solution at QB. Even the dummy coach who drafted him saw that he wasn't an NFL QB after he made the stupid pick Or referring to the University of Florida as "FU." See that's where you guys wearing your heart on your sleeves comes in play. I'm not much of a college football follower but my biggest exposure has been to the former Big 8, CU, NU, OU, KU, etc. I see nothing wrong in Florida University....that's what I'm used to saying.Or calling me derogatory names derived from "Tebow" that now get soft-deleted from posts here. There's an old saying about people living in glass houses and what not.[/b]

I personally think it's pretty clear the Broncos have improved since the time Elway was hired. The overall coaching staff is better, and both the offense and defense will likely be much improved in 2012, especially from the team John inherited in 2010. How is that not a positive development? And why are you so sure Tim is a better NFL prospect at QB over Brock anyway?

All I'm saying is it remains to be seen. Others are calling Elway Exec of the Year and crowning Denver SB champs already. I simply highlighted that absurdity by--wait for it--being absurd. The anti-TT fringe crowd doesn't like it, oh well.

As far as Tim vs Osweiler goes, all I can say is my gut tells me Osweiler will be a bust. He is Dan McGwire version 2.0. He's slow. He's unathletic. His arm is not the "rocket" folks were saying it was. All he seemed to do was throw swing passes in college. He had a losing record in college. And more importantly he won't see the field (hopefully) for about 3 years minimum. It was a waste to draft the post-PM QB this year and before the draft I said so. Even if Manning gets hurt this year it will more than likely be Hanie replacing him, so why draft this year? Well, Elway must think Brock is a franchise QB. OK. He better be. All I'm saying. He's not the starter and if all goes well will be groomed to be be so. Multiple draft picks were not given up to obtain him. What needs to be seen is what kind of QB smarts he has. There have been many above average QB's who were not so athletic that excelled because they could make the right reads and most of the throws. I often said that the X was not ready to be a starter and was thrown into the fire way before he was ready. I would have supported the decision to let him sit on the bench and learn as Elway is doing with BO, but NO! you guys had to see Mr. Popularity on the field the sooner the better and his lack of skills set him back light years.

I've said my peace. Feel free to address any or all points.

This close // to another Lombardi and there are posters who act like we went 3-13 instead if 13-3?

BroncoCrusader wrote:Nope, its because the fringe anti-TT fanbase, more concerned with pretty passes than wins, is irrational and you can't have ANY decent exchange of ideas with them without it coming back to Tebow's fault somehow.

...

So no, you can't have a rational exchange of ideas with inherently irrational people. I mean the evidence is a few posts up, where I am being told John Elway is a better Super Bowl QB than Joe effin Montana. Utterly nonsense and completely emotionally-driven irrationality.

Here's the thing:

It seems anyone who doesn't agree with your view of Tim Tebow is viewed by you as fringe anti-TT and falls under your made-up term TTDS.

KZ you miss the point. The point is the irrational fringe anti-TT crowd CAN NOT give one shred of credit to TT for anything. Does TT need to improve as a passer? Hell yeah. I am a reasonable man and have listed Tim's shortfalls numerous times. However as a fan i was also excited by the winning he did on the field. There is a fringe anti-TT crowd that will not give the kid one ounce of credit for anything positive that happened last year, while blaming him 100% for everything negative that happened last year. You know who they are.

IMO, your views are the ones that are sometimes outside reasonable discussion. The idea that the Broncos must win a Super Bowl immediately in 2012 or the signing of Peyton Manning represents an epic failure is so far beyond a justifiable position, it's ridiculous to the point of indefensible. And yet you still won't back off of it.

Wow, it kinda sucks to have a discussion with someone who apparently holds "unreasonable" opinions, huh? Didja see my signature block before I changed it recently? "Highlighting absurdity by being absurd." I guess that subtle point is/was lost on you.

4-12 and the #2 pick in the draft to Super Bowl Champions in 2 years or its an epic bust? You know as well as I do that's an absolutely unfair and unreasonable position to take. Exactly how many Super Bowls have the Broncos won in their entire franchise history?

Well, all I know is the Rams went from one of the worst teams in the NFL to SB champs with their projected back-up QB in one season. In fact the dude was bagging groceries the previous season if I remember correctly, so going from 8-8 and the divisional round of the playoffs to winning the SB should not be all that difficult for Peyton Manning and the improved Denver Elways.

Not one QB in the NFL, no matter how good, can guarantee a Super Bowl victory in any given season. Not one team is ever even close to being favored against the field to win a Super Bowl before the season begins.

The current betting odds are that Broncos are 12-1 to win the Super Bowl next year (you bet $1000, you win $12,000). The odds say that those who set the lines and those who gamble don't think it is likely the Broncos will win the Super Bowl. Yet only 3 teams are favored more. The Packers are the betting favorites at 6.5-1. No team is anywhere remotely close to a 50-50 proposition. Manning did make a difference though in the betting line. The Broncos were 70-1 or 75-1 to win the Super Bowl before they signed Manning.

If I remember correctly folks were posting that after the Manning signing Denver jumped from 75-1 to 8-1. Now they're 12-1? Hmmmm, moving in the wrong direction it seems.

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on various Broncos related points (we have in the past, amicably at times), but there has to be some sense of balance coming from your side.

A sense of balance, really? There has to be a sense of balance from each side when ideas are exchanged? Wow. Maybe you should have a chat with the fringe anti-TT crowd. Or see my previous signature block.

There are valid points pro and con concerning Tebow's performance last year and his future as an NFL QB. There are valid arguments pro and con concerning the decisions Elway has made in charge of the Broncos, including the decision to pursue and sing Peyton.

Of course there are. Except the fringe anti-TT crowd is not interested in discussing the pros and cons of anything related to TT. [b]Not true at all. Even I have pointed out the "very few" pros about the X. It's just that there is much more downside than there is upside in regards to being a starting QB in the NFL. You guys want for him to succeed so badly all you see are the "very few" things that he CAN do. There is plenty of evidence of that. I simply got tired of trying to engage them and have resorted to using their tactics, and now they don't like it. Surprising. [/b]

Except many of those who don't have the same opinion you do concerning Tebow are not expressing opinions on the fringe outside the mainstream; in fact, many of the views you have attempted to strongly attack since last year are very much in line with the thought process of Elway and most other executives in charge of personnel throughout the league.

What views have I "attacked?" I simply supported the guy while admitting he had flaws he needed to work on. On the contrary, I and others like me were the ones who were "attacked" by the fringe anti-TT crowd.

I agree that a fan shouldn't automatically believe every decision Elway or Fox makes is above question or even criticism. I also agree that we don't know yet how strong the Broncos will draft under Elway and that outside of Miller and possibly Franklin, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the draft last year. Nobody knows for sure one way or the other how they drafted this year. Only time will tell.

Exactly my viewpoint.

But Elway has not made the same kind of reckless decisions McDaniels did: Peyton Manning is not Kyle Orton or Matt Cassel. Tim Tebow is not Jay Cutler. Instead, there has been intelligent and considered thought behind the moves that have been made since John has been in charge with clear championship goals in mind, including the hiring of John Fox and the move to acquire Peyton Manning.

I disagree. IMO the Osweiler pick were very McD-esque. It reminded me of when McD traded BMarsh and drafted DT because, "he reminds me of Brandon Marshall." Osweiler has the same flaws in his game that TT has, and I REASONABLY posted reasons why I thought Denver would have been a better overall team had they simply kept TT to be the backup this year. However, I was attacked by the fringe anti-TT crowd for that. How can you say that? Did Elway trade away extra picks to draft a DB that was too short and too slow to be effective, a TE who only had a handful of catches in college or a QB at #25 who was projected to go in the 3rd round? Maybe BO is a bit of a reach but it's not like Elway gave up the farm on someone he was anticipating to start right away like the ex-new coach did. There is absolutely no comparison between the 2.

I don't know why you are taking such strong negative positions on just about every choice John has made since he has been hired and going so far as to call him juvenile names like "horseface".

Highlighting absurdity by being absurd. Referring to Elway as "horseface" is no different than referring to Tebow as "The Temp" or any of the other, far more personal and hostile names directed at him during the last 12 months. [b]Other than the crazed fan base who really expected the temp to be anything other than a short term solution at QB. Even the dummy coach who drafted him saw that he wasn't an NFL QB after he made the stupid pick Or referring to the University of Florida as "FU." See that's where you guys wearing your heart on your sleeves comes in play. I'm not much of a college football follower but my biggest exposure has been to the former Big 8, CU, NU, OU, KU, etc. I see nothing wrong in Florida University....that's what I'm used to saying.Or calling me derogatory names derived from "Tebow" that now get soft-deleted from posts here. There's an old saying about people living in glass houses and what not.[/b]

I personally think it's pretty clear the Broncos have improved since the time Elway was hired. The overall coaching staff is better, and both the offense and defense will likely be much improved in 2012, especially from the team John inherited in 2010. How is that not a positive development? And why are you so sure Tim is a better NFL prospect at QB over Brock anyway?

All I'm saying is it remains to be seen. Others are calling Elway Exec of the Year and crowning Denver SB champs already. I simply highlighted that absurdity by--wait for it--being absurd. The anti-TT fringe crowd doesn't like it, oh well.

As far as Tim vs Osweiler goes, all I can say is my gut tells me Osweiler will be a bust. He is Dan McGwire version 2.0. He's slow. He's unathletic. His arm is not the "rocket" folks were saying it was. All he seemed to do was throw swing passes in college. He had a losing record in college. And more importantly he won't see the field (hopefully) for about 3 years minimum. It was a waste to draft the post-PM QB this year and before the draft I said so. Even if Manning gets hurt this year it will more than likely be Hanie replacing him, so why draft this year? Well, Elway must think Brock is a franchise QB. OK. He better be. All I'm saying. He's not the starter and if all goes well will be groomed to be be so. Multiple draft picks were not given up to obtain him. What needs to be seen is what kind of QB smarts he has. There have been many above average QB's who were not so athletic that excelled because they could make the right reads and most of the throws. I often said that the X was not ready to be a starter and was thrown into the fire way before he was ready. I would have supported the decision to let him sit on the bench and learn as Elway is doing with BO, but NO! you guys had to see Mr. Popularity on the field the sooner the better and his lack of skills set him back light years.

I've said my peace. Feel free to address any or all points.

This close // to another Lombardi and there are posters who act like we went 3-13 instead if 13-3?

BroncoCrusader wrote:Nope, its because the fringe anti-TT fanbase, more concerned with pretty passes than wins, is irrational and you can't have ANY decent exchange of ideas with them without it coming back to Tebow's fault somehow.

...

So no, you can't have a rational exchange of ideas with inherently irrational people. I mean the evidence is a few posts up, where I am being told John Elway is a better Super Bowl QB than Joe effin Montana. Utterly nonsense and completely emotionally-driven irrationality.

Here's the thing:

It seems anyone who doesn't agree with your view of Tim Tebow is viewed by you as fringe anti-TT and falls under your made-up term TTDS.

KZ you miss the point. The point is the irrational fringe anti-TT crowd CAN NOT give one shred of credit to TT for anything. Does TT need to improve as a passer? Hell yeah. I am a reasonable man and have listed Tim's shortfalls numerous times. However as a fan i was also excited by the winning he did on the field. There is a fringe anti-TT crowd that will not give the kid one ounce of credit for anything positive that happened last year, while blaming him 100% for everything negative that happened last year. You know who they are.

IMO, your views are the ones that are sometimes outside reasonable discussion. The idea that the Broncos must win a Super Bowl immediately in 2012 or the signing of Peyton Manning represents an epic failure is so far beyond a justifiable position, it's ridiculous to the point of indefensible. And yet you still won't back off of it.

Wow, it kinda sucks to have a discussion with someone who apparently holds "unreasonable" opinions, huh? Didja see my signature block before I changed it recently? "Highlighting absurdity by being absurd." I guess that subtle point is/was lost on you.

4-12 and the #2 pick in the draft to Super Bowl Champions in 2 years or its an epic bust? You know as well as I do that's an absolutely unfair and unreasonable position to take. Exactly how many Super Bowls have the Broncos won in their entire franchise history?

Well, all I know is the Rams went from one of the worst teams in the NFL to SB champs with their projected back-up QB in one season. In fact the dude was bagging groceries the previous season if I remember correctly, so going from 8-8 and the divisional round of the playoffs to winning the SB should not be all that difficult for Peyton Manning and the improved Denver Elways.

Not one QB in the NFL, no matter how good, can guarantee a Super Bowl victory in any given season. Not one team is ever even close to being favored against the field to win a Super Bowl before the season begins.

The current betting odds are that Broncos are 12-1 to win the Super Bowl next year (you bet $1000, you win $12,000). The odds say that those who set the lines and those who gamble don't think it is likely the Broncos will win the Super Bowl. Yet only 3 teams are favored more. The Packers are the betting favorites at 6.5-1. No team is anywhere remotely close to a 50-50 proposition. Manning did make a difference though in the betting line. The Broncos were 70-1 or 75-1 to win the Super Bowl before they signed Manning.

If I remember correctly folks were posting that after the Manning signing Denver jumped from 75-1 to 8-1. Now they're 12-1? Hmmmm, moving in the wrong direction it seems.

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on various Broncos related points (we have in the past, amicably at times), but there has to be some sense of balance coming from your side.

A sense of balance, really? There has to be a sense of balance from each side when ideas are exchanged? Wow. Maybe you should have a chat with the fringe anti-TT crowd. Or see my previous signature block.

There are valid points pro and con concerning Tebow's performance last year and his future as an NFL QB. There are valid arguments pro and con concerning the decisions Elway has made in charge of the Broncos, including the decision to pursue and sing Peyton.

Of course there are. Except the fringe anti-TT crowd is not interested in discussing the pros and cons of anything related to TT. [b]Not true at all. Even I have pointed out the "very few" pros about the X. It's just that there is much more downside than there is upside in regards to being a starting QB in the NFL. You guys want for him to succeed so badly all you see are the "very few" things that he CAN do. There is plenty of evidence of that. I simply got tired of trying to engage them and have resorted to using their tactics, and now they don't like it. Surprising. [/b]

Except many of those who don't have the same opinion you do concerning Tebow are not expressing opinions on the fringe outside the mainstream; in fact, many of the views you have attempted to strongly attack since last year are very much in line with the thought process of Elway and most other executives in charge of personnel throughout the league.

What views have I "attacked?" I simply supported the guy while admitting he had flaws he needed to work on. On the contrary, I and others like me were the ones who were "attacked" by the fringe anti-TT crowd.

I agree that a fan shouldn't automatically believe every decision Elway or Fox makes is above question or even criticism. I also agree that we don't know yet how strong the Broncos will draft under Elway and that outside of Miller and possibly Franklin, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the draft last year. Nobody knows for sure one way or the other how they drafted this year. Only time will tell.

Exactly my viewpoint.

But Elway has not made the same kind of reckless decisions McDaniels did: Peyton Manning is not Kyle Orton or Matt Cassel. Tim Tebow is not Jay Cutler. Instead, there has been intelligent and considered thought behind the moves that have been made since John has been in charge with clear championship goals in mind, including the hiring of John Fox and the move to acquire Peyton Manning.

I disagree. IMO the Osweiler pick were very McD-esque. It reminded me of when McD traded BMarsh and drafted DT because, "he reminds me of Brandon Marshall." Osweiler has the same flaws in his game that TT has, and I REASONABLY posted reasons why I thought Denver would have been a better overall team had they simply kept TT to be the backup this year. However, I was attacked by the fringe anti-TT crowd for that.

I don't know why you are taking such strong negative positions on just about every choice John has made since he has been hired and going so far as to call him juvenile names like "horseface".

Highlighting absurdity by being absurd. Referring to Elway as "horseface" is no different than referring to Tebow as "The Temp" or any of the other, far more personal and hostile names directed at him during the last 12 months. Or referring to the University of Florida as "FU." Or calling me derogatory names derived from "Tebow" that now get soft-deleted from posts here. There's an old saying about people living in glass houses and what not.

I personally think it's pretty clear the Broncos have improved since the time Elway was hired. The overall coaching staff is better, and both the offense and defense will likely be much improved in 2012, especially from the team John inherited in 2010. How is that not a positive development? And why are you so sure Tim is a better NFL prospect at QB over Brock anyway?

All I'm saying is it remains to be seen. Others are calling Elway Exec of the Year and crowning Denver SB champs already. I simply highlighted that absurdity by--wait for it--being absurd. The anti-TT fringe crowd doesn't like it, oh well.

As far as Tim vs Osweiler goes, all I can say is my gut tells me Osweiler will be a bust. He is Dan McGwire version 2.0. He's slow. He's unathletic. His arm is not the "rocket" folks were saying it was. All he seemed to do was throw swing passes in college. He had a losing record in college. And more importantly he won't see the field (hopefully) for about 3 years minimum. It was a waste to draft the post-PM QB this year and before the draft I said so. Even if Manning gets hurt this year it will more than likely be Hanie replacing him, so why draft this year? Well, Elway must think Brock is a franchise QB. OK. He better be. All I'm saying.

I've said my peace. Feel free to address any or all points.

Spider shouldn't you be spending your time making, uhhh, "alternative" avatars of Tebow (not that there's anything wrong with that) and then coming on here telling everyone else THEY'RE obsessed with him?

On a serious note tho you and those like you remind me of some guys I ran in to back when I was playing competitive softball, going to tourneys every weekend, etc. Every once in awhile we'd have teams that we'd beaten follow us around the complex and jeer us every game after that. Every out we made, every error, they'd be there in our ears. Mind you, we'd beaten them already, but they didn't see the apparent contradiction in telling the team who'd beaten their arses that they "sucked." It was kinda amusing, especially when we were winning tourney championships and they were still telling us we "sucked."

You guys are kinda like them. I don't know if you were jealous of Tebow or he reminded you of the guy who kicked sand in your face or stole your girl, but the only times you guys were happy was when he failed. And since the NFL gridiron can be a humbling place for even the best of them, you guys absolutely relished when TT failed. You know the media blew him up to be this kind of "superman" guy, but on the football field he was more human so to speak. He did dumb stuff sometimes. And you guys were there to pounce on him, just waiting for that errant pass or sack or fumble or whatever.

Or maybe it was just that you guys were so absolutely WRONG on most everything Bronco-related you needed an opportunity to be right for once. So here comes Tebow with his weird style of play, who all the "experts" said would fail, so you were just ABSOLUTELY SURE he was going to fail too? So then when he didn't and he won football games, maybe that's why you guys held onto the "yeah but he only hit 46% of his passes" nonsense for so long?

Regardless, some days I think a guy could make a good living if he went back to school, finished up his masters in Psych, and treated all the sufferers of TTDS. Then I think naaaah, the fishing's too good to deal with grown mens' personal insecurities and inferiority complexes day in and day out.

2011: Den loses road playoff game to NE by 35. Most "fans" blame QB despite Brady's 300+ yds and 6TDs. 2013: Den loses SB on neutral turf by 35 and most "fans" blame everyone BUT the QB who committed 3 TOs including a Pick-6.

BroncoCrusader wrote:Or maybe it was just that you guys were so absolutely WRONG on most everything Bronco-related you needed an opportunity to be right for once. So here comes Tebow with his weird style of play, who all the "experts" said would fail, so you were just ABSOLUTELY SURE he was going to fail too? So then when he didn't and he won football games, maybe that's why you guys held onto the "yeah but he only hit 46% of his passes" nonsense for so long?

Or maybe we looked at the WHOLE picture, didn't focus SOLELY on the few things that actually went right and swept the obvious flaws under the rug... and didn't come away nearly impressed with the man as you obviously were. ...and therefore think that (while Tebow's role was an important one in the way last season panned out,) his role in that was greatly exaggerated. You'd think he did it all by himself.