Comments

On watching it for the first time, I was really underwhelmed. It wasnt the best of stories, and it wasnt told in the best of ways. The ending was rushed and the early parts too drawn out and interest started to wander.... I share everyones disappointment following the far superior previous episode.

The story had a number of plot holes but then to be fair what doesn't. I think you can watch any episode of most TV shows and ask yourself questions as to why something was there, what happened to someone... etc. They tend to just ignore things for the sake of 'drama' - for example why was the Hospital totally deserted. OK we can assume that the crows attacked and made them evacuate (even though such a wholesale evacuation including sick patients seems unlikely) and leaving the pro sick but not yet dead girl laying on a gurney under a cloth is a bit unreasonable...but of course this is a fiction show so... hey - probably saved them paying for extras.

I must admit... even though I eventually voted average... the episode was a lot better on the second viewing. I think that you just mentally set your expectations and watching a second time your expectations can be met without disappointment - and actually the episode was the better for it weirdly.

The series as a whole has been a mixed bag so far. A strong opener with genuine surprises i.e. the Master reveal.... followed by a modern-day stinker (Orphan 55) - this is to me as bad as Kill the Moon and Forest of the Night. Next there was a perfectly good episode.. Tesla - I enjoyed that one... and of course Fugitive of the Judoon which its fair to say was very well received and was a real surprise both in its content and the way it had been kept under wraps.

The problem was after Judoon our expectation levels were massively raised.. and we were presented with an 'average' run of the mill episode with no links to the arc.

Interestingly the arc.. such as it is (are we talking the Master, the Destruction of Gallifrey, the Timeless Child / Lie / Dr Ruth, or the Lone Cyberman - so many to chose from not all to be addressed in series 12 I suspect) has been totally absent from Orphan, Tesla, and now Praxeus. Of course in the old days when there was an arc there would almost always be some tiny reference to it in pretty much every episode - not so in series 12.

I have a strong suspicion, arc fans, that the next 2 episodes could well be devoid of any arc references too... of course the 2 part finale will be... but anything before? Im not so sure.

I know many of you wont agree, but a second viewing is actually a good idea, even if you found yourself deeply disappointed first time around - it wasnt all that bad. What I would say is, should Dr Who be relying on second viewings to make an impact?.... certainly not. Get it right first time, and on first viewing.... they managed it for Judoon, so why not the other episodes.

I’m open minded to giving it a second viewing. You actually have a really good point about the expectation level I had sitting down to watch it.

Much of that expectation was my own fault. I’d whipped myself into a frenzy of excitement, no joke. I was like a six year child old during those final school weeks of December when EVERYONE is constantly telling you about Santa visiting with presents on the 25th.

Please tell me they didnt send the cast and crew around the world to film this episode, and then preach about plastic.
cant rate it as i fell asleep.

Technically they didn't send them around the world, they sent them down the world, more or less. And hired a partial local Saffer crew to save shipping the entire operation down from Cardiff.

At least they didn't fly somewhere to do a story about CO2 and climate change. That would really be taking the p***.

Also if we are being REALLY technical, they didn't fly them down for tht episode *specifically* as the 2 part Spyfall was filmed out there too and it was part of a production block. But last season they also flew out there too.

But the point stands - they flew the crew to south africa, and spain last season, and this season again, spain, south africa and bulgaria. Hypocricy personified.

Watched last night, frankly wish I hadn't. How could it be so bad after last week. Leaving the companions alone - except Graham - is a really bad idea, it is like watching wood from the shed trying to act. I am sick of all the preaching too.

i have only got round to watching this episode , I really wish i had not bothered have had enough of being preached to about environmental issues think i am going to stick to classic Doctor who on britbox

It was pretty damn poor, feel sorry for whittaker, not sure anyone could make the Doctor great with the drivel that been handed her.

Tom Baker has some stickers....

Just saying.

Panini?

Haha. 🤣

Post in haste...

He certainly had stickers... and underpants (fact!). He also had stinkers.

Creature from the Pit? Anyone?

Even that had a great female villain in Lady Adrasta.

Actually, Tom Baker's era had some pretty strong female characters. His companions for a start were pretty strong.

The female scientist who was the main villain in Robot. Vira from Ark in Space. The Sisterhood of Karn. A female Thal leading survivors against the Daleks in Genesis. The Cailleach in Stones of Blood. Xanxia in Pirate Planet. Princess Astra in Armageddon Factor. And Nyssa's mother in Keeper of Traken. Pangol's mother in Leisure Hive, to name but a few.

Worst one so far for me. I think the soundtrack is part of the issue for me. It's so inconsequential, like a pointless hum in the background. It doesn't have any character beats I can notice, it doesn't tie in with dialogue or action with any clarity.
There were a couple of moments of the script which could have been quite amusing, and were clearly written as jokes, and I was trying to work out why they fell so flat - the first was the Doctor rattling off the seemingly unrelated worldwide events and ending with the cat who turned out to be a distraction, and the second was Graham and Yaz's bit of business in the warehouse with the handheld tech pointing the wrong way.

After thinking about it, the scene play and editing were really static, and in previous episodes, there would have been some sort of beat in the music and editing to make those jokes work. As it is, Whittaker just sort of stood there dying on her arse for too long and then moved on when no one responded, and Graham and Yaz just meandered into a discussion about how to get in through the doors.
Even a close up on a face at times might help. It's all so pedestrian to look at.

And, I'm sorry, but the one note characterization is getting on my last nerve. You could swap the heads of any of the four current travellers in the TARDIS, Doctor included, like lego heads, and have them do and say the same things, and it would make no difference at all.

What makes these people distinct? How come Yaz can suddenly work out how to read the co-ordinates on alien tech she's stumbled upon? How come Ryan can dissect a crow? Why would the Doctor think he'd done it at school?? Just because Graham had seen IV lines put in doesn't mean he'd be remotely competent, especially when he couldn't even hold the search device they were using earlier up the right way.

And apparently the Doctor is a brilliant scientist, just by virtue of narrating every single event that happens while we are watching it.

Utterly incompetent television. I don't rate Whittaker's Doctor at all, but I can't even see that Eccleston, Tennant, Smith or Capaldi would have been able to deliver this tripe with any more conviction.

I was really looking forward to watching this week's episode after last week's excellent one but I was disappointed. I quite like JW as the Doctor I think with a decent storyline she has potential but Sunday's episode just didn't feel like Who, like when no one gave a second thought to poor Aramu when he died on the beach, not even a mention that was just cold!

I think at the moment, apart from some bright flames, it is a dying fire.

I know lots of people on here live this iteration. However, whatever we think is irrelevant. Sliding ratings and AIs show that the general viewing public are now disinterested in the series.

Some interesting headlines might spike a modicum of curiosity, but it is not sustained.

I wonder what, if anything, can be done to actually give it some popularity, but I can't see how the apathy of the general viewing public can be broken down.

I know what I would like, but that may not raise the interest of the general viewing public.

Well evidence points to the bbc doubling down and running it into the ground until the 60th, but after that I suspect it will be rested. My guess is a long ish( 5 years) rest followed by a total reboot.

I think at the moment, apart from some bright flames, it is a dying fire.

I know lots of people on here live this iteration. However, whatever we think is irrelevant. Sliding ratings and AIs show that the general viewing public are now disinterested in the series.

Some interesting headlines might spike a modicum of curiosity, but it is not sustained.

I wonder what, if anything, can be done to actually give it some popularity, but I can't see how the apathy of the general viewing public can be broken down.

I know what I would like, but that may not raise the interest of the general viewing public.

Well evidence points to the bbc doubling down and running it into the ground until the 60th, but after that I suspect it will be rested. My guess is a long ish( 5 years) rest followed by a total reboot.

I’m getting the same feeling too. Putting the show on hiatus may also be a result of the lack of show runners willing to come on board and carry the show forward. Particularly if the BBC has agendas and policies which hamper creativity.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere, some of these episodes feel as though they were borne out of a specific creative brief to hark about climate change rather than just deliver the best possible story.

I understand why people dislike Orphan 55, however much of that is aimed at the last five or so minutes of direct “this is your future but it’s not too late to change your ways” speech at the ‘fam’ (and the audience).

That episode could have been improved massively had the planet not been Earth. The tone of planetary damage would still stand, but it would have a “this is what happened here, it could easily be you if you don’t change” message.

The follow up could have been a more eco conscious crew who develop a caring for planetary protection wherever they are. But no. It was hammered home and then they moved on with no further development of idea or characterisation.

Side note; I also feel that people would have felt very differently to Kill The Moon and Forest of the Night has those episodes been on a planet other than Earth.

How much of that was driven by BBC and how much of it has been show runner I will never know.

But right now, I feel I’m back in the McCoy era. We all know how that ended up.

I think at the moment, apart from some bright flames, it is a dying fire.

I know lots of people on here live this iteration. However, whatever we think is irrelevant. Sliding ratings and AIs show that the general viewing public are now disinterested in the series.

Some interesting headlines might spike a modicum of curiosity, but it is not sustained.

I wonder what, if anything, can be done to actually give it some popularity, but I can't see how the apathy of the general viewing public can be broken down.

I know what I would like, but that may not raise the interest of the general viewing public.

Well evidence points to the bbc doubling down and running it into the ground until the 60th, but after that I suspect it will be rested. My guess is a long ish( 5 years) rest followed by a total reboot.

I’m getting the same feeling too. Putting the show on hiatus may also be a result of the lack of show runners willing to come on board and carry the show forward. Particularly if the BBC has agendas and policies which hamper creativity.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere, some of these episodes feel as though they were borne out of a specific creative brief to hark about climate change rather than just deliver the best possible story.

I understand why people dislike Orphan 55, however much of that is aimed at the last five or so minutes of direct “this is your future but it’s not too late to change your ways” speech at the ‘fam’ (and the audience).

That episode could have been improved massively had the planet not been Earth. The tone of planetary damage would still stand, but it would have a “this is what happened here, it could easily be you if you don’t change” message.

The follow up could have been a more eco conscious crew who develop a caring for planetary protection wherever they are. But no. It was hammered home and then they moved on with no further development of idea or characterisation.

Side note; I also feel that people would have felt very differently to Kill The Moon and Forest of the Night has those episodes been on a planet other than Earth.

How much of that was driven by BBC and how much of it has been show runner I will never know.

But right now, I feel I’m back in the McCoy era. We all know how that ended up.

Bib

Ive made this same observation too in the past.

Both of those stories stretched credulity way too thinly with the fact that they were set on a recognisable place.

In Kill the Moon making the Moon an egg for something was a step too far... and then for it to immediately poo out another moon of the same size it just came from with no worldwide carnage caused by the sudden tsunamis without the moon there....

And in the Forest of the Night... to set it on earth.. where we know and have a frame of reference... to see london covered over with a forest, and then for it to totally disappear the following day.... the planet would be in total ruin - london would crumble with all the roots and tree trunks springing up in roads, concrete, inside peoples houses... and we are expected to believe that our planet earth was capable of growing a worldwide forest in hours..... and that people would just forget the next day that this happened....

These two stories were absolute stinkers.

But, had either of those stories been set on an alien planet.. with an alien moon.. and an alien flora..... then you could accept it much easier and the story would be all the better for it.

Im not so sure that Orphan 55 would be saved on a different planet.. the message would still have been heavy handed and badly presented - I think that was the problem.

Look, incase we forget Dr Who has always tried to reflect society in the era it was made. The Green Death... etc... etc.. etc... - it just seems lately that we are attuned to looking for these things, criticising the show for it, and we know that the BBC has some kind of agenda which it seems to be pursuing at the cost of good story telling and subtlety.

As much as I love the show... and I am still enjoying it... I respect the wider opinion that something is wrong. The show runner is always the easy target - but he or she is obligated to deliver the programme that the BBC commission - and that includes whatever targets they are contractually obligated to deliver.

The only real way to make a seismic change to the fabric of the show would be to open it up as a co-production and either keep it on the BBC, or let someone like Netflix make it.

I dont really believe the current rumours about the future production schedule... I will believe it when I see it... but for the short term future of course we cannot expect series 13 to air much before Spring 2021. Of course it seems like the festive special for 2020 is already in the bag... though at the time I didnt believe they were filming something that was destined for transmission some 15 months in the future... I was wrong.

The BBC needs to take a good look at the wider industry and the changes over the last 10 years. Dr Who simply hasn't moved with the times, the format is dated, the effects don't hold up, but more importantly the storytelling is awful. The standout moments in this series (and there haven't been many) have been the reveals, ie. the Master, Capt Jack and Ruth. I wonder if the problem is trying to write lots of stand-alone stories with a small writing team whereas a bigger team developing one coherent serialised story may be preferable. The Dr Who approach to a series arc seems to be a few throw-away remarks in one ep and then seemingly forgotten by the next.

I gave up pretty early in series 11 - found it extremely dull and tedious. I have watched all the current series thus far - largely because there is nothing else to do at that time, but think I'll give the remainder a miss. And the number 1 reason is the poor writing - and that just brings into focus the issues and agendas that the production team seem to be pushing, and it appears they are being crowbarred in, - driving rather than fitting in the narrative.

The BBC should consider a partnership with one of the big players, eg. Amazon Prime, Netflix etc - I just don't believe it has the finances or resources to do justice to Dr Who anymore.

The BBC needs to take a good look at the wider industry and the changes over the last 10 years. Dr Who simply hasn't moved with the times, the format is dated, the effects don't hold up, but more importantly the storytelling is awful. The standout moments in this series (and there haven't been many) have been the reveals, ie. the Master, Capt Jack and Ruth. I wonder if the problem is trying to write lots of stand-alone stories with a small writing team whereas a bigger team developing one coherent serialised story may be preferable. The Dr Who approach to a series arc seems to be a few throw-away remarks in one ep and then seemingly forgotten by the next.

I gave up pretty early in series 11 - found it extremely dull and tedious. I have watched all the current series thus far - largely because there is nothing else to do at that time, but think I'll give the remainder a miss. And the number 1 reason is the poor writing - and that just brings into focus the issues and agendas that the production team seem to be pushing, and it appears they are being crowbarred in, - driving rather than fitting in the narrative.

The BBC should consider a partnership with one of the big players, eg. Amazon Prime, Netflix etc - I just don't believe it has the finances or resources to do justice to Dr Who anymore.

Heres the shame of it.

Imagine you are tasked with writing an episode...

A virus that feeds on plastic is a fantastic sci-fi idea.... the twist in the story being that its infecting Humans... how? well as the episode progresses we learn that humans in the 21st century are flooded with micro plastics in the environment. The aliens have targeted earth due to its high concentration of plastic in the atmosphere and using humans to experiment on.

Now, this as a premise is very good - clever... and would make a cracking sci-fi story. Some of the best stories find the fantastical in the ordinary - living statues, shadows infested with invisible carnivorous creatures.. and micro plastics inside all of us...

However the execution is exceptionally important to make it work.

Who knows.. maybe the modern audience is far more discerning than the programme makers give us credit for.... but the current agenda of the BBC across all its programming is being very un-skilfully delivered and not only can the audience see it happening... but in the case of Dr Who people are actively looking for it... like playing a game of bingo... and when they see it they are not happy. Its got to the stage where, even if it was subtly done it would be noticed and called out.

Everything seems driven by the message rather than the scifi/monster idea now.

Going back a few years Jamie Mathiesen came on board to write his first episode because he had a great idea about a 2D monster (Flatline), not because he wanted to write about an issue or a historical figure, whereas it hasn't happened like that during the Chibnall era, hence the new monsters and aliens have been desperately underwhelming.

It was pretty damn poor, feel sorry for whittaker, not sure anyone could make the Doctor great with the drivel that been handed her.

Tom Baker has some stickers....

Just saying.

Panini?

Haha. 🤣

Post in haste...

He certainly had stickers... and underpants (fact!). He also had stinkers.

Creature from the Pit? Anyone?

Even that had a great female villain in Lady Adrasta.

Actually, Tom Baker's era had some pretty strong female characters. His companions for a start were pretty strong.

The female scientist who was the main villain in Robot. Vira from Ark in Space. The Sisterhood of Karn. A female Thal leading survivors against the Daleks in Genesis. The Cailleach in Stones of Blood. Xanxia in Pirate Planet. Princess Astra in Armageddon Factor. And Nyssa's mother in Keeper of Traken. Pangol's mother in Leisure Hive, to name but a few.

"Creature" ironically could be seen as inappropriate "use" of plastic but for entirely different reasons...

😎

Good point about female villains too. The idea that Dr Who has only just introduced the idea of strong female characters ("it's about time", breaking the glass ceiling etc.) is bonkers...

Well it had my attention, certainly. I thought it was pretty well paced, intriguing, jump cut around a lot which was unusual, transcontinental activity... Why the TARDIS didn't have a medical bay or a laboratory, when we KNOW it actually does have these facilities... seemed to be all just different areas of the console room. Why was an alien scientist in 2020-2024 using Windows 7 on their laptop? OK, OK... research scientists. Notorious for it because instrumentation and compatible drivers and expensive software. Effects? The sick crow on the shed roof on the beach was abominable quality. Hitchcock would be spinning in his grave.

As for the story itself, too much aliens. Again. Why bring down a Soyuz capsule? How, in fact? Surely planes would be affected more, given how often they fly around? Why capture an astronaut that the whole world is going to be looking for to use them as a guinea pig. HOW did they even get hold of the astronaut? Teleport?

The gas mask zombies... didn't need to be alien. Human scientists, or even Sea-Devil or Silurian scientists, trying to develop a microorganism that would deal with plastic pollution. Maybe using a virus obtained by Torchwood who extracted it from the Nestene under the Embankment during Rose - the Doctor's own anti-plastic, mutated. Something that broke down then polymerised plastics into an easily recoverable and recyclable sheet-like material. Maybe they didn't reckon on it getting out into the wild and attacking the micro plastics in animal's bloodstreams plasticising them like an exhibit in a Gunther von Hagens show. I do love the idea that half the problems the Doctor faces are of his/her own making.

Was also desperately hoping that Gabriela would join TT or even replace Ryan. Graham was cracking as usual - holding the scanner upside down. Genius.

Scooping up PC Over-the-top was a nice touch. Was expecting a TARDIS door in the wall moment again.

Anyway, predictions for next week... the TARDIS is repainted in green.