It's also fun because as a little old lady (the proverbial "your grandmother"), I don't fit the stereotype of the Linux user. It shows that it's not just nerdy guys with thick glasses and pocket protectors who use Linux.<g>--GrannyGeek

LOL! I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to go hardware shopping with you Granny. Just to watch the salesperson tapdance. I've seen them with older customers before, it's plain nauseating watching how they coddle and push unneeded "expertise" on them because they assume anything other than a digital wristwatch is beyond a older persons comprehension.

It's also fun because as a little old lady (the proverbial "your grandmother"), I don't fit the stereotype of the Linux user. It shows that it's not just nerdy guys with thick glasses and pocket protectors who use Linux.<g>--GrannyGeek

LOL! I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to go hardware shopping with you Granny. Just to watch the salesperson tapdance. I've seen them with older customers before, it's plain nauseating watching how they coddle and push unneeded "expertise" on them because they assume anything other than a digital wristwatch is beyond a older persons comprehension.

Hm, I have a similar, but opposite experience when people mistake me...

In any case I try not to condescend on my audience, while trying to remain plain and understandable.

The funny thing is, I've read a lot about Linux "zealots" and Mac "fanatics," but I hardly ever seem to see anything in the tech press about the menace of Windows fanatics or zealots. In my experience, there are a lot of Windows crazies out there. Some of them are the types who will tell you that they've never had a problem with Windows XP; I find this hard to believe since every OS has problems, and if you use it long enough you will eventually encounter one. Others are the type who when you tell them you use Linux, will talk Linux down, as did the guy I mentioned in an earlier post. And all you have to do is search a few Mac message boards and you'll find trolls telling the Mac users that that OS X is just a pretty GUI pasted on top of an OS that has no apps, won't play games blah blah blah. Of course there are Linux zealots, and there are Mac fanatics, but Windows also has its share of die-hard maniacs who will say anything to defend their beloved operating system. Once in his blog, cartoonist Scott Adams said something to the effect (sorry, I can't find a link) that "Microsoft-haters" could go curl up around their Linux disks and cry (this was in the context of his promotion of Bill Gates for president). And I imagine a lot of you have seen the paid and unpaid MS shills praising Windows while disparaging Linux, Mac, *BSD, etc.

If someone has a link to a cache of that Scott Adams blog post, or another column/article quoting him, please post it. I may be misremembering what he actually wrote, or I may have missed something indicating it was meant to be humorous (though I don't think so).

So, hanumizzle, you're right, I could have told the guy to STFU, but I've said similar things in the past; I've found that nobody changes their mind and I don't even feel better in the end.

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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991

I didn't saw I wanted a PC user to have a license, I was just making a point and maybe it wasn't that well done. Most people wouldn't be able to drive a car if they didn't have to have a license first. And they certainly wouldn't know anything about driving safety if they hadn't studied the drivers manual.

I guess to be blunt, if somebody doesn't want to learn PC safety, and they box gets all chocked up and broken, we're not doing them any favors, or ourselves for that matter. So in a way, we (those of us which know better) are just enableling those infected boxes, because without our fixes they wouldn't stand the test of time. It's sort of like giving a kin money when you know he's just going to drink it.

So maybe instead of fixing the infected ms windows, we should just install linux and not give the drunk the opportunity to drink again.

This is sort of close to home for me, I have two sisters which always buy the lastest and greatest MS, one already has vesta. But nether want to learn anything about PC safety, they think I'm paranoid. But yet when thier box don't work they ether call me or my Dad.

I guess to be blunt, if somebody doesn't want to learn PC safety, and they box gets all chocked up and broken, we're not doing them any favors, or ourselves for that matter. So in a way, we (those of us which know better) are just enableling those infected boxes, because without our fixes they wouldn't stand the test of time. It's sort of like giving a kin money when you know he's just going to drink it.

Incidentally, my mother's new computer runs Windows and I practically had to pull teeth to prove to her that one can do almost the same things with Firefox that one can do with IE, and in many cases, many better things.

Most common Internet malware (ad infections, etc.) come from over the Web proper (i.e., HTTP). In turn, most of these come from Internet Explorer. Using a different browser, like Firefox, or Opera, or Seamonkey, is like shutting the gate through which most of the barbarians enter. With IE, that gate is more or less left wide open.

Most common Internet malware (ad infections, etc.) come from over the Web proper (i.e., HTTP). In turn, most of these come from Internet Explorer. Using a different browser, like Firefox, or Opera, or Seamonkey, is like shutting the gate through which most of the barbarians enter. With IE, that gate is more or less left wide open.

I have a small internet cafe, and I know exactly what your taking about. I put all my security in place, and IE surcomvents all that and infects my box anyway. Another bad one is MSN Instant Messager. I finally installed Firefox and put a desktop link which I renamed Internet Explorer. By deleting IEs start links from the desktop and menu, I was able to close thoses open dooors.

And you want to know the truth most of the public don't even notice they aren't using IE when they click my renamed firefox link.I still haven't found a good replacement for MSN messanger.

I'm working on setting up a box which will run linux with a few windows apps via an emulator. When I get it working I going to push the public into a linux world. We'll see how it works. MSN messenger is one of the apps I'm still considering. Because the youth of today use that stupid program for everything from email to chat and personal contacts.

muskrat:I took what you said about people having a license to use a computer as topic for discussion, not as anything more. I think it's been a productive discussion; it at least gave me some things to think about. So, I would say to you: well done, friend.

hanumizzle: I've had similar experiences with Windows users. Many people think that IE is the Internet, just as there are some people still around who think AOL is the Internet. Many of them find anything different to be frightening or just too "difficult" to an adjustment. I've had I don't know how many people download Firefox, then I show them how to use it (how it's the same as and different from IE) only to find out later that they ran into an IE-only site and went back to IE permanently. Then, of course, comes the barrage of malware and the eventual b0rkinization of the OS.

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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991

there is a distro here called ciberlinux, which is kubuntu plus a special soft to administrate internet cafe and it is hacked to look just like windowz, with that firefox theme looking like ie7, thunderbird like ms outlook express and so on.

Tom: They will never get what is the intenet, may be telling how it borned and what was the original intention.

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"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise. --Jumalauta!!

It's a good point that you make. Nevertheless, in my experience many people really don't want to know what the Internet actually is, much less how it came to be or how it works. They just want to know how to get their news, sports, porn, funny videos of dogs on skateboards, or whatever. Also, and I know this is going to sound harsh, but with some of these people, if you handed them a rock and told them it was a piece of bread, they would bite it.

Tom

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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991

May be, is a little scary how people uses the freedom internet gives you. If you see what kind of things are the most visited on the net, you find that hardly the altruists uses of the interned will be popular, I find this a very sad reality. Of course you have the other side of the coin, when you see Linux and open source are the "net child", as well the different communitys around, and the medical practices (you can take a cardiogram and a doctor from the other side can see it!) and so on.

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"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise. --Jumalauta!!

I agree. If it weren't for the Internet (and, more specifically, the WWW), many great things wouldn't have happened, or would only have happened in reduced form. I think that Free/Open Source Software generally and GNU/Linux in particular are among the best examples of this phenomenon. Of course Free Software existed before many people had net access, but it wasn't until PC ownership reached a certain critical mass that F/OSS really started to take off. I suppose it's some sort of a feedback loop. Sometimes we focus too much on the negatives (I do that myself), and forget about what's available to us through the Internet that wouldn't be otherwise.

A few examples: I can email friends all over the world, I can phone my friends in Australia for about 1/100 the cost of a regular telephone call, I have access to information (from Wikipedia, Britannica,etc.) which previously would only have been available in a library, I can download software which formerly would have only been available by driving to a computer store ... I could make a very long list. My favorite, though, is being a member (in my own small way) of the Linux community and more specifically the VL community.

Tom

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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991

I have mentioned it before but one project that deserves a mention again was the Blackpool Linux User Group (BLUG) in England, UK. They had money from the European Union to help people from deprived wards of their town to own a computer. They had a scheme by which refurbished computers were made available to anyone living in the affected wards on condition that they attended a computer course. At the end of the course they got to take their computer home with them. There was no charge for the course. BLUG grew out of a computer recycling scheme, so the computers cost nothing. Funding for the trainers was found via EU Objective 2 Funding. What was unique (at least as far as I know in the countries of the EU) is that these computers were preinstalled with Linux. Continuing support was provided via members of the BLUG. The organisation also ran a cyber cafe for members and the public. I can't find details of the group now, it is possible that their funding has expired and the project has been closed down (as is all to often with time limited funding). But to me this was an excellent way of getting computers to the long term unemployed, people on disability allowance and people we are on state retirement pensions.

That sounds great Lyn, I hope the project still going...This topic is geting more important, since looks like internet is becoming the first communication method and a important culture (in a wide sense) vehicle. Well or not, it has an educational role, since I see small kidds surfing the net without any supervision. If the internet is such thing, the case against Microsoft is more important than just some geeks playing with computers. A monopoly in such thing like computers being a very important thing like a vehicle of our language, culture, education, tradition, political/ethical opinions and a big etc is even more dangerous.

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"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise. --Jumalauta!!

MSN Messenger is quite popular in some place called Þæt Cynerīce Swēona, and for that I use 'Pidgin', which does IRC, AIM, MSN, ICQ, Yahoo! IM, bla^H^H^Hamong others.

I know about Pidgin, But it doesn't do every thing the foolish public like to do with MSN messanger.

Or if it does I'm not sure how to get it to do it.

For example, most MSN users user the instant messanger to check thier email. Will Pidgin do that? Now I know you can log into MSN via a browser and check your mail, and in reallity that's what MSN IM does, it kicks on the browser already logged into your account. But JohnJoe public has been dumbed down by the MS Giant, They don't know how to do something as simple as that.

And I have to repeatedly explain it to unhappy clients after they complain about MSN IM not working. That gets old real quick.My mission in the cyber cafe is to make money not reeducate every Tom, Dick, and Harry in my town about how to use MSN.