were talking of an assumed bandwith use of ~130 mb per month, compared to 52 mb per month with an assumed average compression of 60% using bzip2. for the cost of a couple seconds cpu time and about 10 seconds implementation time.

just for the example assuming 10 possible entities that hourly retrieve the files and were talking of ~800 mb bandwith saving for pa/jolt and ~80 mb bandwith saving for each of the retrievers per month. and all it takes is adding bzip filename at the end of your crontab entry doing the dumps. heh.

__________________The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.

I still got the scripts lying around from when the dumps used to be gzipped, wouldn't matter to me. I just didn't see the advantages. 0,1% less traffic for jolt, 0,5% less for every retriever, or something like that.

if i was talking for me personally, and the traffic i can do with my home-line, then it sure is next to nothing.
but like xtothez pointed out earlier, there are stricter limitations to certain hosting contracts. and saving 80 mb per month equals 8% of the monthly allowed traffic (at an 1 gb/month quota).

its not viable to spend up to 15% of your monthly quota just on retrieving pa dumpfiles just because someone cant be ars3d to put __one single line containing one single command__ behind their cronscripts.

if 80mb is a significant amount of your bandwidth limit, what're you doing with the files when you get them?

-mist

just in case you have missed the point or lack the motivation to actually read the thread.
the time it took you to post your above quoted reply >= the time it takes to implement the compression server side.

but to answer your question at least partially. yes, its not going to be a public pa tool page, _obviously_.

I fetch the dumps twice per hour (for redundancy in the face of occasional downtime, late ticks, other unexpected stuff). By the end of the round (when the dumps are much bigger) it totals around 330Mb/month (based on rd10.5). Signups are up this round, and there's a new race column, so I'd expect it to be more. That can be up to a couple dollars of bandwidth charges depending on your host.

That said... I'd be pissed if it suddenly started being zipped cos I'd have to waste my time digging through dusty scripts and change things to unzip em, like I did last time they changed for no reason

Well, there are a few reasons. Obviously, this is once again, my wacky point of view.

1. The dumps are not shown or listed in the EULA or indeed in the manual.

2. I accept they are covered in the forums, but assuming everyone sifts the forums when dealing with the game is a mistaken theory.

3. Noob players are totally disadvantaged by the third party tools that are created from the dumps. They enter the game, they have no reference to the dumps, PAtools, third party activity and actions of the alliances.

4. Players who understand and use tools like sandmans have quite an advantage over people who for example, do not know its there, OR do not know how to use it, even if they do know its there.

5. I believe fundamentally that the game should in a very basic sense, be played by logging in to the game, and using the options available. This basic principle is why for example, Multi's are banned, Farming is banned, Bots and browser plugins are banned, special in game plugins or other things are regarded against the spirit of the game.

I think that most people basically agree, that the game should be played by the player. It should involve making the best use of the game resources, using diplomacy, working with your galaxy, cluster, and alliance. Or in the most basic terms, may the best player win, by playing the best game.

Now, over time, I also accept, people think that Battle calcs, and the many third party tools add to the game, and help people play the game.

The overlooked part in this is that someone who does not know this background stuff, signs up, they get their account. They log in and play the game, using the game screens. They are not shown a list of third party tools, so are disadvantaged. They are not given a list of external tools. They are however at the but end of being raped and pillaged by people, galaxies, clusters and particuarily alliances, who have a distinct and unfair advantage.

Now, before people blow a fuse, I was being verbose when I made my first suggestion. So rather than not doing the dumps (although that is an option.), perhaps a solution would be to place info on third party tools in the manual, or another suitable place. And add some details or articles how to use the tools.

Even then, I still think, to a variable extent, that its slightly against the basic spirit of the game in some ways.

Well, there are a few reasons. Obviously, this is once again, my wacky point of view.

1. The dumps are not shown or listed in the EULA or indeed in the manual.

2. I accept they are covered in the forums, but assuming everyone sifts the forums when dealing with the game is a mistaken theory.

I agree, but then again the dumps do not offer any ingame advantage right away. They just ease the way pa players can mine data. You certainly didn't play the very first rounds where people wrote bots which cycled through the galaxy page for every galaxy each tick and retrieved the data that way. It was very server stressing, and as such the botfiles are easing the life for everyone: Tool Coders and Pa Team / game administration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n

3. Noob players are totally disadvantaged by the third party tools that are created from the dumps. They enter the game, they have no reference to the dumps, PAtools, third party activity and actions of the alliances.

4. Players who understand and use tools like sandmans have quite an advantage over people who for example, do not know its there, OR do not know how to use it, even if they do know its there.

Both points contradict each other. On the one hand there are pages like sandmans which invalidates your point #3. And point #4 boils down to applying common sense / brainforce. If people cannot handle tools like sandmans then in most cases they are unable to handle the data required for 'intelligent playing' of PA anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n

5. I believe fundamentally that the game should in a very basic sense, be played by logging in to the game, and using the options available. This basic principle is why for example, Multi's are banned, Farming is banned, Bots and browser plugins are banned, special in game plugins or other things are regarded against the spirit of the game.

I think that most people basically agree, that the game should be played by the player. It should involve making the best use of the game resources, using diplomacy, working with your galaxy, cluster, and alliance. Or in the most basic terms, may the best player win, by playing the best game.

Now, over time, I also accept, people think that Battle calcs, and the many third party tools add to the game, and help people play the game.

The overlooked part in this is that someone who does not know this background stuff, signs up, they get their account. They log in and play the game, using the game screens. They are not shown a list of third party tools, so are disadvantaged. They are not given a list of external tools. They are however at the but end of being raped and pillaged by people, galaxies, clusters and particuarily alliances, who have a distinct and unfair advantage.

Now, before people blow a fuse, I was being verbose when I made my first suggestion. So rather than not doing the dumps (although that is an option.), perhaps a solution would be to place info on third party tools in the manual, or another suitable place. And add some details or articles how to use the tools.

Even then, I still think, to a variable extent, that its slightly against the basic spirit of the game in some ways.

I'll answer to the rest once I am sober again. But I guess the first to comments of mine make it very clear which way this argument will take.

I agree, but then again the dumps do not offer any ingame advantage right away. They just ease the way pa players can mine data. You certainly didn't play the very first rounds where people wrote bots which cycled through the galaxy page for every galaxy each tick and retrieved the data that way. It was very server stressing, and as such the botfiles are easing the life for everyone: Tool Coders and Pa Team / game administration.

Both points contradict each other. On the one hand there are pages like sandmans which invalidates your point #3. And point #4 boils down to applying common sense / brainforce. If people cannot handle tools like sandmans then in most cases they are unable to handle the data required for 'intelligent playing' of PA anyway.

I'll answer to the rest once I am sober again. But I guess the first to comments of mine make it very clear which way this argument will take.

Point 3 and 4 do not contradict one another. You need to consider the points again. However, at least you've taken a peek at it. This is not about me being right, and everyone or some others being wrong, its really more along the lines of a discussion.

Just to cover my basic view again
1. Third party tools being outside of the game, and unknown to new users (commonly called 'Noobs' by the game fraternity) have a detrimental effect in *some* ways. That's not to say they are detrimental overall.

2. I *think* it would be a good idea to think beyond current thinking in this area. There are all kinds of directions people could consider.

Crazy examples follow:-
a) Release the dumps, with a license. The license stipulates that code created to read/use/sift/other the PA data should be *Planetarion license code - code should be open and given or at least available to the community.
Perhaps this would allow such code to be intergrated into the game, thus adding value to the community in return for PA giving the public dump data.

*Planetarion license as yet unknown. One might have to be written. Or one might be out there already that could be used.

I am obviously risking upsetting lots of people with this one, but hey, get used to it, its what I do. Besides, if (example) Thrud's battle calc one day became an in game screen we could all use, would we not like that?

b) Third party tools should be checked and once confirmed that they work (ie calculate properly within reason), they be added to the Manual or other game documentation areas, the portal, or similar, so that every player knows they are there. Thus the third party tools and utils become closer to the game and better covered and documented..

Other players will tell people about the third party tools available to the community

1. The thread being a sticky changes what? That patently does not answer the suggestion - it really rather looks quite an ignorant response.

2. Showing a thread in the forums. OK, fine, that is ok for players who sift the forum. Again, it is no real response to what has been said.

3. I'm glad the Portal has some links. But why stop there?

4. They might be told about it, they might not. Noobs don't tend to be treated with open arms, or perhaps you have missed that? In the game, you could have a battlecalc and some other options. These could be set in preferences, so that when the player clicks the link, they get taken to their chosen battle calc (example).

This discussion should be split off from this thread, but I'll reply here anyway!

I'd personally say that botfiles don't follow what the game originally intended. You had to search a target for yourself, instead of comparing the most juicy targets according to X size, Y score, in a galaxy no larger than Z and having the luxury of a graph to pick between which is probably best. It feels less like a war game and more like an interactive spreadsheet.

I understand that bots were a problem and they'd probably be introduced in some way, or alliances could get their players to manually copy and paste the contents of each galaxy to be parsed. 150 or so galaxies would take about 5 mins for 10 active members to copy and paste the contents of every galaxy.

My wild and wacky suggestion would be to remove all scores/sizes of planets and have galaxy scores only. It means you'd have to search with scanners to try and find the best targets.

It all depends on what sort of future you want from Planetarion. The only problem is that these botfiles have been around for so long that I seriously doubt many players would want to take a step backwards - even if it might make the game more interesting.

This discussion should be split off from this thread, but I'll reply here anyway!

I'd personally say that botfiles don't follow what the game originally intended. You had to search a target for yourself, instead of comparing the most juicy targets according to X size, Y score, in a galaxy no larger than Z and having the luxury of a graph to pick between which is probably best. It feels less like a war game and more like an interactive spreadsheet.

I understand that bots were a problem and they'd probably be introduced in some way, or alliances could get their players to manually copy and paste the contents of each galaxy to be parsed. 150 or so galaxies would take about 5 mins for 10 active members to copy and paste the contents of every galaxy.

My wild and wacky suggestion would be to remove all scores/sizes of planets and have galaxy scores only. It means you'd have to search with scanners to try and find the best targets.

It all depends on what sort of future you want from Planetarion. The only problem is that these botfiles have been around for so long that I seriously doubt many players would want to take a step backwards - even if it might make the game more interesting.

I too think the botfiles seem to fly in the face of the original intention of the game.

1. The thread being a sticky changes what? That patently does not answer the suggestion - it really rather looks quite an ignorant response.

That Useful Links thread is linked to the Overview in-game. Thus, it is accessable to everyone who has access to the game. If they clicked on it, they dont need to be a forum user to view the page. The thread is split in such a way as to group references by type, and generally include a link to explain what things actually are or how they work.

Now, i realise that is less than ideal, as what you seem to be asking for are in-game battle calcs, target searching facilities and the like. Having said that, the Useful Links thread has had some 22k hits on it, so at least someone other than me uses it (i can only account for about 12k ).

Without target searching tools, it could be put that there would be an increased emphasis on launching on the more obvious and/or helpless targets of the universe - the very 'noobs' you are trying to help - which i dont think is a good thing.

That Useful Links thread is linked to the Overview in-game. Thus, it is accessable to everyone who has access to the game. If they clicked on it, they dont need to be a forum user to view the page. The thread is split in such a way as to group references by type, and generally include a link to explain what things actually are or how they work.

Now, i realise that is less than ideal, as what you seem to be asking for are in-game battle calcs, target searching facilities and the like. Having said that, the Useful Links thread has had some 22k hits on it, so at least someone other than me uses it (i can only account for about 12k ).

Without target searching tools, it could be put that there would be an increased emphasis on launching on the more obvious and/or helpless targets of the universe - the very 'noobs' you are trying to help - which i dont think is a good thing.

I was not really asking, rather merely suggesting things. If the useful links thread is in the overview, then its along the lines of my thinking of putting things in the game where they really should be, ie, basically right where people can get them.

The in game link to a Bcalc could just be a link on the game screen, perhaps chosen in the prefs option. I'm not saying there has to be one, its just, why not? How many times do you get someone pop up asking for a bcalc? Its pretty often.

To try and put the essense of my whining moan in context, I'm not against the tools, but if the tools equate to a voodoo-Planetarion-ism where those in the know get a foot up, while those who don't get the beasting, thats a needs fixing thing.

The other thing I said was you are giving the data away free. Stick a license on it and see if you can get the community to give you code back in some way that might even - yes - turn ino a target picker or bcalc or whatever, that lives in the game itself.

I know in some cases to be fair, people have given stuff back, I am not saying they don't.

I too think the botfiles seem to fly in the face of the original intention of the game.

Most of this thread is tl;dr (sorry), but this jumped out at me. I would like to know how you define "original" (after more than 20 rounds of constant changes), and why you pick this specific (rather trivial, if I may say so) item to complain about.

__________________The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Those people using tools built from the dump files do not have an advantage over the standard player. It just makes it easier for people to find the data they are looking for. Everyone can still go and cycle through the galaxy pages to find targets - or he goes to sandmans/pilkara/whatever page to have a search-option already.

You may now feel free to go to the suggestions forum and suggest that PA Team also builds in some kind of sandmans-like page instead of the standard universe page, and you might want to suggest more things like integrating a battle calc and stuff. But it boils down to two simple issues:

1) Manpower required to implement the tools into the game. It's not as easy as to just have someone from the community offer his/her toolkit for integration, there also have to be code-reviews and technical requirements for the toolkits must be fulfilled.

2) Lack of creativity. Right now I can always go and use my database built from the dumpfiles (and other things like scans, intel etc) to try out something new. When there are no more dumpfiles and things are completely included into the game, then there comes the disadvantage of not being able to try out something new for fun.

Most of this thread is tl;dr (sorry), but this jumped out at me. I would like to know how you define "original" (after more than 20 rounds of constant changes), and why you pick this specific (rather trivial, if I may say so) item to complain about.

Those people using tools built from the dump files do not have an advantage over the standard player. It just makes it easier for people to find the data they are looking for. Everyone can still go and cycle through the galaxy pages to find targets - or he goes to sandmans/pilkara/whatever page to have a search-option already.

You may now feel free to go to the suggestions forum and suggest that PA Team also builds in some kind of sandmans-like page instead of the standard universe page, and you might want to suggest more things like integrating a battle calc and stuff. But it boils down to two simple issues:

1) Manpower required to implement the tools into the game. It's not as easy as to just have someone from the community offer his/her toolkit for integration, there also have to be code-reviews and technical requirements for the toolkits must be fulfilled.

2) Lack of creativity. Right now I can always go and use my database built from the dumpfiles (and other things like scans, intel etc) to try out something new. When there are no more dumpfiles and things are completely included into the game, then there comes the disadvantage of not being able to try out something new for fun.

All the above is valid, bar 'Those people using tools built from the dump files do not have an advantage over the standard player.' - which I don't honestly believe is right at all. But the rest is true. But even, it creates a disparity IMHO..

__________________The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

im an returning old player from rounds 1-3 and having fun again at playing pa. im a proffesional webdeveloper so i was inspired creating some little pa tools. i immediately headed to this forum to find out more on the pa dumps and was glad to see the dumps are still out there. i only found out that i was missing some features in these dumps.

im working on a galaxy banner gallery for the fun of it. i like to browse and scroll to all galaxy screens and watch those mostly funny and sometimes beatiful galaxy banners.

my galaxy banner gallery will show thumbnails of galaxy banners so you can see multiple banners on 1 page (im thinking each page shows 1 cluster of galaxy thumbnails) with popups to the real size version.

there is no easy way to grab all galaxy banner url's, so could you please add an extra column to the galaxy dumps with the url to the galaxy banner, or maybe you could support a 2nd galaxy dump (to leave the current dump untouched) with only coords and banner urls?
if you could do this for round 23 i would be thankful.

another request for round 23, but now concerning the planet dumps:
i noticed that the planet dumps dont contain info on a planets galaxy role (its minister post). could you add an extra column `role´ with values like:
gc for Galactic Commander.
moc for Minister of Communication.
mod for Minister of Development.
mow for Minister of War.

and my final request concerns the mode a planet is in. there's no way to find out whether a planet is in vacation mode, still under protection, process of begin closed, etc. could you add a column for this to the planet dumps, or maybe supply a seperate dump for this?

__________________The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.