Was Blind, But Now I See

Question from Halil:
Does this experience prove the existence of souls? It is of a woman who was born blind, had a visual NDE, and saw things, including Jesus. There have been studies done which say that the people born blind cannot see in their dreams, but this woman could see in her NDE. What is your opinion about that?

Answer by SmartLX:
It’s true, if people are born blind then their dreams are auditory, tactile and olfactory but not visual. Thing is, if people are born blind then they have no basis on which to recognise sight. This woman has been around sighted people all her life and knows the language of visual imagery, and has chosen to use that language to describe what she experienced, but we have no way of knowing whether what she was actually experiencing was sight regardless of what she says.

One very important thing to remember is that we have documented cases of people who have gained sight for the first time as adults, when lifelong conditions like congenital cataracts are discovered and treated. It’s a downright traumatic experience for many, and universally they spend a long time with no idea what they’re looking at. (There’s a good account by an opthalmologist here.) By contrast the woman in your video immediately knew what she was seeing, ws completely comfortable with processing the visual signals and enjoyed the whole thing. It doesn’t sound like anything we’ve seen in real life, because it’s as if her brain was rewired in an instant to process the new signal perfectly. Sounds miraculous indeed.

44 thoughts on “Was Blind, But Now I See”

Halil, you have an itch around atheism versus religion. I don’t think you will find the solution for your itch here, as much as you scratch it.
If I were you, I would start reading serious article about the issue. All you have to do is write (in the google bar) a statement, not a question, but even that may do and google will find you articles which deal with the issues stated in your statement. Usually in the titles of the articles.
An example, say I don’t know whether one becomes gay by nurture (one’s family and society) or is born as gay (whether genetic or error of pregnancy). So, having this itch, I would write, and I did, a statement like ‘nature of nurture of (being) gay’, or, ‘gays are born so’, or, ‘gays are made by society’. I believe you understand what I mean. But, I will give you another example. Let’s say you have an itch around the origin of matter. I had that one, too. Then just write these three little words in the google bar. Or, you are not sure, but would like to know whether there is free will (in human brain), or not, whether all is previously determined by the law of causality. Cause produces consequence. Then you will write ‘free will or determinism’. Etc. But, be sure that you will not know whether you want atheism, or not, before you know the answer of the origin of matter in the universe. Cos, after matter was there, everything else was piece of cake for evolution to achieve, given amle time, I mean, REALLY AMLE. Then, after having read and digested what theoretical physics says on that, start reading serious stuff. The way you are doing, it is just scratching the surface of a mountain of knowledge.

And, no, there is no soul in human brains, just as there is no free will.

Maybe the soul isn’t in the brain lol. I don’t think you can prove with science that there is a soul or there isn’t. I mean what is a soul even defined as? Googled and definitely doesn’t sound like something physical. Even the most educated people can be wrong but I think they were right in saying there is no evidence of a soul unless the have a soulocator. What do you mean by no free will?

NIKI KAPETANOU, I’m afraid you have the wrong idea of what the Bible says is a soul. It refers to each person as being a soul. Not that there is a piece of a person that can detach from inside a shell. We are living being or living souls. And when we die we will be dead souls or dead beings. Our dreams are used by God to help us know Him but we must allow what we dream to be measured by what the Bible says. And not depend upon the ill advice from those who refuse to accept that which has been proven to be truth in a world that looks to make error its legacy.

Gerald – There hasn’t been anything “which has been proven to be truth” from the Bible or your particular flavor of god being. Page after page of comments at this website have borne that out.

It doesn’t really matter which interpretation of souls is used, be it yours or other Christians who claim there is a separate soul. In the end there is no evidence for any of it and no reason to consider it anything more than ancient mythology…

SmartLX admitted, in more then one post, that history in an instance like the Assyrian captivity, agrees with the Bible. I assume you would believe and agree with him. It seems unlikely that there is an absolute absence of truth to anything. I think you dismiss the Bible completely where it shouldn’t be, even if you don’t agree with it.

James, clearly the quote I referenced from Gerald’s post was in regard to souls and, as an extension, the supernatural. Since I apparently was not clear on that point despite responding directly beneath what he wrote, I will clarify now. Mundane, everyday occurrences (like wars) found in the Bible have indeed been independently verified. The Assyrian Captivity would be one such event. What Gerald and I are talking about (and have been for quite a long time at this site) is the supernatural aspects of the Bible. None of that “has been proven to be truth”…souls included.

You know, we are still being surprised about how much our forefathers knew. There are things that they did or wrote that still teaches us something. So please do not start with they were so long time ago and they were not intelligent. They knew things.and what they knew God taught them.

I completely agree that the ancients knew some things, and I’ve never claimed otherwise. We’ve reached the point in our journey of discovery where we vetted almost all of the old claims of yore, and it is rare now when we learn something that we didn’t already know about (this is different, by the way, from realizing that THEY knew about it in their day). But clearly and obviously they were not as knowledgeable or advanced as people today. If they were they wouldn’t have died from small pox, or thought the Earth was flat. Their intelligence I don’t question, but their knowledge was limited and the use of their intelligence was sometimes suspect. So please refrain from creating straw man arguments about things I’ve never stated or referred to.

Then, to finish your post, you make a rather impressive leap of logic from “They knew things” to “God taught them”, as if that is a perfectly acceptable assumption. It is perfectly silly in reality. That ancient people 2000 years ago had some knowledge of things, and then claim that some god being taught them those things, without any data suggesting that, is irrational. You have yet to prove that a god being exists. If you can do that (which I doubt given the years I’ve been asking and the years you’ve failed to provide), then you’d have to prove that this same god being actually gave humans such knowledge. For all we know the god exists and had nothing to do with giving humans knowledge of anything. Just because people exist and they know things does not prove a god exists and that this god gave them knowledge. You haven’t connected the dots. You’ve reached an unsubstantiated conclusion.

“But clearly and obviously they were not as knowledgeable or advanced as people today.”
Tim, they obviously were not backward. At least not in the beginning when they were first created. And as they lost their knowledge from where they came they began to fall further behind. But look what we have to further our knowledge today. Electron microscopes, all kinds of telescopes. All our fancy gadgets that we use today, didn’t even help us to know enough to separate the sick from the well to prevent spreading of disease. Yet somehow ancient Israel was directed to do this, years before we could see microbes. And they did this contrary to the other cultures around them. While other cultures were worshiping the sun and the moon, and a bunch of other gods, Israel was worshiping only one God. After they had left Egypt and were taught that there was only one God. Oh you contest the fact that the Bible says that Israel left Egypt. Well the Bible has been challenged many times and it has always come up smelling like roses. So contest all you want. I wouldn’t bet against it. It’s track record is 100%. The fact that the earth hovers in the midst of nothing, and, Well me provide this.
“Scientific Facts in the Bible

1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth” (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: “Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?” (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when “British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing” (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

6. Job 38:19 asks, “Where is the way where light dwells?” Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: “When the morning stars sang together…”

8. “Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth” (Time, Dec. 1976).

9. Solomon described a “cycle” of air currents two thousand years before scientists “discovered” them. “The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits” (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: “In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters.” The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled,” and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”

12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called “behemoth.” Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, “He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.” In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: “And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean” (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under “running water.”

14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

15. “During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine).” Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, “Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence.” (11:3 continued)” From:”https://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml”
You speak of God as if He could be less than human. God is more, much more than we. We know this because of how He took great pains for our protection and care. Providing things all around us for us to enjoy. Just why would some newly formed out of nothing life essence ever worry how food would taste. How could it have known what taste buds were. How could we appreciate the colors of all the wonderful birds and animals, if we were formed by some mindless life essence that accidentally morphed into all. No, we had an Intelligent Being that cared so much for us that He gave us abilities that we can only wish we could provide for the things we are inventing. And if we can do them they are so clumsy and flimsy that they look unappealing and flimsy. No, no, a thousand time no. God created us. There is no other possible answer. Come on you have more sense than the others. Lift up your voices and let it be known that God is great, and greatly to be praised.

That is because the Atheist has nothing to use as a barometer as a solid foundation, other than, when the majority rules and dictates. So for the atheist any can be right. But for the Christian we know that the Bible is Gods word for man. We know that when we adhere to its teachings we will never go wrong. And yes the Bible has proven itself many times over. From the pages of the Bible men and women of down through the ages have found peace and comfort, strength and healing. This book has changed more lives than any other page with print. It has provided the historian a view into the past. It has taught the physician how to heal and care for the sick. It has taught truth about medicine, astronomy, psychology, physics, science, history, literature, love, and millions of individuals have found salvation in knowing the Lord Jesus Christ. So yes the Bible knows about the state of the dead. It knows that man is not immortal, and that when man dies, he goes back to from where he was created. And it tells us that man can live again and live forever. By knowing Jesus and their Savior. You like to play the numbers? Where the numbers show that Jesus is real. That He is God. And that He is coming back again. Because so many have given witness that they have met Jesus, personally. And that He has changed their lives. People from all walks of life. Rich or poor. Black or white or in between. From every level of intelligence. They are the numbers that says that you are wrong, and that you need to get to know Jesus yourself, before it is too late. But that is up to you.

Gerald writes: [That is because the Atheist has nothing to use as a barometer as a solid foundation, other than, when the majority rules and dictates.]

Science isn’t a solid foundation? But a 2000 year old collection of the most edited and changed writings in history, authored by mostly people unknown, is a solid foundation? That is ludicrous Gerald.

Gerald writes: [So for the atheist any can be right. But for the Christian we know that the Bible is Gods word for man.]

Which version of the Bible, Gerald? There are a couple dozen of them. Some contain different books. I’d already mentioned above that some Christians would say you are wrong, and that there is a separate soul. Your side can’t even get their own story straight internally, so stating what “Christians know” is putting the cart before the horse.

Gerald writes: [And yes the Bible has proven itself many times over. ]

Yes it has. Flat Earth claims. Stories of exoduses and arks and worldwide floods. Tales of humans coming after animals, and humans coming before animals, all in the same book no less. Yes, the Bible has definitely proven itself to be a collection of Iron Age nonsense written by people that thought the night air was poisonous to breathe…

Gerald writes: [From the pages of the Bible men and women of down through the ages have found peace and comfort, strength and healing.]

They also found slavery, sexism, racism, violence, rape, child abuse, and a whole host of other wonderful justifications. Please don’t pretend that your holy book is full of only good. It’s all right there in black and white…

Gerald writes: [This book has changed more lives than any other page with print.]

No doubt. I can’t put a number on all of the Native Americans, and Jews, and countless Africans, who lives were “changed” in the name of the Bible. The Bible even changed my life. I read it and realized what a steaming pile of cow droppings it all was…

Gerald writes: [It has provided the historian a view into the past.]

Yes, a view into the world of Iron Age mythology.

Gerald writes: [It has taught the physician how to heal and care for the sick.]

Right. We still use lamb and dove blood to cure all sorts of things these days…

Right. Cooking food over human feces was a great idea. Anointing sick people with oil really works well. Claiming the iron laden Earth came before iron producing stars is a gem. You can take up serpents and drink anything and it won’t hurt you, that’s worked out just fine. Stoning rebellious sons, that’s a great parenting tip. Mustard seeds grow into trees, the field of botany thanks the Bible for that immaculate knowledge. If anyone actually followed all the advice in the Bible, they’d be dead in a week…

Gerald writes: [You like to play the numbers? Where the numbers show that Jesus is real.]

I don’t play the numbers, nor do I take Pascal’s Wager. I follow the numbers instead. I follow the data and the empirical evidence and logic and reason. That’s why I know the numbers don’t show Jesus being real, or anything supernatural existing…

“The Bible even changed my life. I read it and realized what a steaming pile of cow droppings it all was”. Tim outside of wondering why you go out of your way to tear down what so many others, and not just Christians, find the Bible to be of great benefit for humanity. I also find it interesting that you have failed to find the good of the Bible. But I guess just like anyone who goes anywhere new, whatever you are really looking for you will find and birds of a feather really do flock together. So since you appear to only want to find the worse, maybe the fact is that you really prefer the worse over the good.

“Science isn’t a solid foundation? But a 2000 year old collection of the most edited and changed writings in history, authored by mostly people unknown, is a solid foundation? That is ludicrous Gerald.” Now from this statement you are leading me to believe that you know very little about that 2000 year old collection. Now I can understand why you wouldn’t accept the Bible. You see there is no other collection of historical writing gs that are as complete as the Bible. Since there were historical writers who grew up from the same families, these people memorized the Bible and past it on from scribe to scribe. And each were tested so as to make sure the purity. Then came parchment and these were meticulously kept. And these were also tested. And they were copied by more than one. And the copies were compared. And then they were stored in different places. And so we have a collection of books that are more pure than any other historical writing. And the information within from such an old book, has had many a Scholar from different fields of study scratching their heads in wonder, trying to find out how what was written from so long ago, could be teaching them things that the so called modern man had not learned without the Bible. Go ahead, Google it. No other piece of historical has provided so much knowledge in the different fields of study today. Things that were learned have been directly attributed to have been learned from that 2000 year old book. Go figure huh. Close your mouth, before a fly flies in. Many a Atheists have accepted the Bible as the truth of the goes and have found a saving relationship with the Savior, once they actually went for themselves to see what it says and not depend on someone else who picked and choose what they wanted to find. God challenges man to see for themselves. He said ” come unto me all who are weary and heavy ladened and I will give you rest. This is a promise directly from God.” So don’t take my word for it. Go to God yourself through a study of His word. If it isn’t true you can at least say you gave it a whirl. But, when you see that this book is unlike any other book you have held in your hands or read with your lips, you’ll see for yourself that God was waiting for you.

Gerald writes: [Now from this statement you are leading me to believe that you know very little about that 2000 year old collection. Now I can understand why you wouldn’t accept the Bible. You see there is no other collection of historical writing gs that are as complete as the Bible.]

I am giving an opinion of myself here, but I am pretty certain I have demonstrated a pretty good knowledge of the Bible to you at this website. By knowledge I am not only talking about it’s contents, but about it’s history as well. Your knowledge of the contents is very good, but you seem lacking in the background on the Bible. You certainly have been given the information regarding the history of the Bible, such as the evidence of editing, deletions, and insertions into various texts, the analysis of writings that show them to be written years after they claim to have been made, the fact that they are written by mostly people unknown, the exclusion of the gnostic texts such as the Gospel of St Bartholomew, and so on. Why you continue to ignore it and still make claims about the Bible’s accuracy and competency is beyond me.

Gerald writes: [Since there were historical writers who grew up from the same families, these people memorized the Bible and past it on from scribe to scribe. And each were tested so as to make sure the purity.]

Unsubstantiated. Most Jews claim people like Moses and Abraham wrote the books they are mentioned in, and most Christian traditions hold that the NT books were written by people that actually knew Christ. So to claim there was this oral tradition goes against what a majority of Torah/Bible believers state, and to claim it was error free is yet another leap of fancy into the world of unsupported conjecture without connecting any dots.

Gerald writes: [Then came parchment and these were meticulously kept. And these were also tested. And they were copied by more than one. And the copies were compared. And then they were stored in different places. And so we have a collection of books that are more pure than any other historical writing.]

The entirety of anthropological work by Biblical scholars completely disagrees with this statement. Don’t take my word for it, look it up.

Gerald writes: [And the information within from such an old book, has had many a Scholar from different fields of study scratching their heads in wonder, trying to find out how what was written from so long ago, could be teaching them things that the so called modern man had not learned without the Bible. Go ahead, Google it. No other piece of historical has provided so much knowledge in the different fields of study today. Things that were learned have been directly attributed to have been learned from that 2000 year old book. Go figure huh.]

Like the Assyrian Captivity? Sure, the Bible got that right, and I freely admit as much. Even one supernatural claim live up to scrutiny? No. Any creation claim live up to scrutiny? No. Even things like not going to the bathroom in your war camp isn’t original to the Bible (if you remember that discussion from last year). And the important point to make in all this is very simple – that the Bible has some details in it regarding wars and nations and so forth does not mean that it is infallible, accurate, or useful in supernatural areas. Nor does it make every historical claim beyond reproach. Stories about worldwide floods, Sodom, and exoduses from Egypt are clearly fairy tales. It is also, by the way, blatantly inaccurate to claim humans would not know about things had it not been for the Bible. Things like the Assyrian Captivity are accepted because they have been independently verified, not just because the Bible said so…

Gerald writes: [Many a Atheists have accepted the Bible as the truth…]

As we have reached the inevitable preaching portion of your post, I will end my comments here.

All major cultures have something said about a world wide flood. It surely not fairy tale. If you talk to most historians they wiill tell you that to have a story spread over different cultures as the story about the flood, has a very good chance that the story at least in part is true. It needs only to be investigated to see which story is true. And since studies have been done on mountain ranges where finding indicate rapid deposits of different sediment mixed with sea animals where the sea animals have been preserved in prestine conditions and the belief is that some kind of delight must have caused this. And this with evidence that shells fossilized ocean animals have been discovered at he tops of mountain ranges. Is more than enough evidence to tell you that you have learned error. All of what I have referred to has been published and easily veriable. And as of yet is being ignored by those who just don’t want the Bible to be true.

Please read all of the Bible and judge God by what He asked his peogle to live. And not by what his people did or did not do. Look at Matthew 25:3w-46. People, parents, government officials, dictators, priest, teachers, lawyers, Muslims, Jews, all have a written does and dont’s. Some of those does and dont’s are not so good. But for the ones that are exceptional, means that the people must be exceptional. He knows it isn’t easy, but He promises to be there to help. This is the God I serve. He is not what you are deceptively trying to make him out to be.

The last comments Gerald wrote here sounds like a nonsense preaching of a priest who is loosing its flock which I witness several times when no one was in the church when I still believed. The short version of what Gerald wrote sounds like this – It must be true, it must be true, it must be true…

Please read Leviticus 19. Those who have been taught that the Bible is immorality or that God is a vicious sycopath to one degree or another need to read what God actually said and did. The Bible gave the history of God’s people. It tells where they failed to trust and believed and how they paid for it. It also tells how they were blesesd when they followed God’s instructions. But it omits nothing. It was due to true Christians and their true understanding of God’s word that brought an almost end to slavery here in the United States. It is the because of the same teachings that missioAries have taken the good news of God’s love to every land around the world and try to make changes in those lands by teaching people that Gids love is the way to live. And that there is a higher power that each of us will stand before and be judged by. So we should live for othetd as we would have others live for us. The God of the New Testament is the same God portrayed to us through the life of Jesus Christ. It is only because of our short comings and vacilatig hearts that the proples of the church fail to live up to the high goal of God like love that God encourages His people to attain. But even with these sometimes deliberate failings, God has blessed this world and has used fallen, erring, human Beings ti share the truth of His love and salvation to all mankind. TO EVERYONE.

On a side note, Gerald I wanted to ask you why do you believe in the Bible when there are even more ancient text before it, like the Epic of Gilgamesh. If god or gods would be real then I think he would not wait for some Jews to show up and write the Bible that would be a very stupid thing to do. He would let people know before the Jews came to be and that means the first gods who were mentioned in literature before the Bible should be the real ones or just god is not so clever and waited in the shadows for what? The ancient gods were the first ones of who we know the rest are just copies of one another. So therefore I ask why not believe in the first gods we know existed before the Bible?? They were first here, they had the same powers and abilities like the Bible god and even some of them sacrificed themselves for humans or fought for them. Or you Gerald just believe because some priest told you so or you were raised in that religion? If so then when you would live in Ancient Mesopotamia or Ancient Greece then you would never knew Jesus Christ and would worship other gods who have nothing with the Bible. There its just a matter of perspective so please do not tell us that Jesus or god of the Bible is the real deal because he is not because he was not even the first one to show up. He is just another deity in the long history of human kind of deities who come and go.

The Bible may have been written about 2,000 years ago (it tells of approximately 4,000 BC), but it tells of the creation of the universe in other words the very beginning. If you believe it’s true in that area, the biblical God is the first God and is the only one, again if you believe the bible is true. Ever read John 3:16? You mentioned other “gods” died for and fought for humans and does not the bible say that Jesus died for humans? What first “gods” specifically? So you don’t believe in the biblical God but you do believe in other “gods”? How do you know which ones are true and existed if not from old books? Also, which ones are the real deal? Is it everyone but the Christian God?

Since there is no evidence for any of it James (and I mean not even one shred of data for any of the myriad of supernatural claims mankind has come up with since they first started coming up with them) the best thing to do is ignore the whole lot of it and chalk it up to the same place that Easter Bunnies and UFOs come from – imagination.

I agree that there is little to no evidence for most supernatural events. I wouldn’t dismiss it completely. Also I wouldn’t dismiss the Bible but that’s my belief. 85% of the population believe in some sort of god/gods/deity/higher power, I would have to say that it seems like something is out there. I know that it goes against science to say that something is out there without evidence, but faith isn’t science.

Not little James…none. Zilch. Zero. Nada. I don’t know of any data or empirical evidence for the supernatural. Perhaps you do, and would be willing to share that with everyone.

Meanwhile, an argumentum ad populum is a red herring. That 85% believe something doesn’t make it true. This logical fallacy is usually based in part on the erroneous thinking that most people analyze and edit their beliefs and behaviors, when in fact they typically don’t (what’s known in logic as conformity). Groupthink and peer pressure is not evidence of the supernatural.

So you are willing to say that 6 billion people are all wrong? Witness accounts are what I was referring to for evidence. I know how much you dislike witness accounts, so it is rather pointless to mention them. I understand that a lot of people can be wrong but I question that so many can be completely wrong. Even if some of them don’t edit their beliefs, that doesn’t mean all of those people are following their imaginations. I would also say it’s rather big of you to say that 85% of the population is wrong, when you can’t say anything is completely ruled out.

I didn’t say they are wrong. I said there is zero evidence for any of it. Your lack of providing any evidence as per by request only reinforces that point.

I’m sure you are already familiar why it is that personal experience, or witness accounts, are not empirical data or evidence. Since I have detailed out the reasons why in other discussions, most notably with Gerald, I will not repeat myself here.

You are still continuing on with the red herring. Stating that so many people believing something does NOT make it true. I had hoped I adequately explained that. I’m curious, what percentage would that number have to drop to before it’s possible in your mind that they are all completely wrong? Are the over 50% of people that believe alien life exists enough to mean they must be right? How about the 21% about Bigfoot? Where’s the magic dividing line?

You know, I’m sure at least 85% of ancient Egyptians believed in Set and Osiris. Do you think they were right? How about the 85% in Scandinavia that believed in Valhalla? Maybe the 85% in Greece who were sure Zeus and Hades and Poseidon rules the cosmos? I’m quite confident you don’t give credit to those belief systems, despite their mass popularity at the time. That’s because you weren’t raised with it, and it isn’t the current iteration of god story that (some of) the world follows.

I hadn’t seen this post before. Again eyewitness accounts, peoples lives being changed and an old book are a few, not getting into the scientific evidence. Which you would probably also dismiss.

I understand that it doesn’t make it true. I think it is true in this case and I think that 6 billion people somewhat agreeing backs me up. Again feel free to disagree.

What if those things they believed in were true. Maybe they were demons, I don’t know but most lies are based on a grain of truth. Most things in general are based on the past and experiences. I think there are supernatural things and they can’t be dismissed because there is no empirical evidence mostly because there is evidence you just dismiss it. Just because someone witnessed it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. It means it might not be accurate but when multiple people agree on it, shouldn’t that make it, that much more reliable.

James writes: [I hadn’t seen this post before. Again eyewitness accounts, peoples lives being changed and an old book are a few, not getting into the scientific evidence. Which you would probably also dismiss.]

People’s lives are changed by car accidents, plane crashes, winning the lottery. Are we going to credit a lottery god for that?

I’m not sure what “again eyewitness accounts” is supposed to mean, other than I suppose you think that counts for something. Many Greeks and Egyptians had experiences with their gods. Why do you dismiss those as nonsense?

As for scientific evidence, please bring that forward. In fact, I’m begging you to. I’ve been asking Gerald for years for scientific evidence, he quotes me Bible passages instead. Please share any scientific evidence you have.

James writes: [I understand that it doesn’t make it true. I think it is true in this case and I think that 6 billion people somewhat agreeing backs me up. Again feel free to disagree.]

Well, 3.8 billion. There is 1+ billion that believe in a totally different set of gods, including reincarnation. They are called Hindus. There’s about 1 billion people that consider themselves secular/nonreligious/agnostic/atheist. Are you more backed up because there are more Abrahamic believers than Vishnu believers? What makes the Hindus wrong and you right? What’s the magic dividing line for the numbers? If Hinduism took over Christianity, do you switch to that flavor?

[I think there are supernatural things and they can’t be dismissed because there is no empirical evidence mostly because there is evidence you just dismiss it.]

Well at least give me the opportunity to see the evidence.

[Just because someone witnessed it doesn’t mean it isn’t true.]

Doesn’t mean it is true either. Again, this is not an argument.

[It means it might not be accurate but when multiple people agree on it, shouldn’t that make it, that much more reliable.]

Agreed upon by people who, by and large, have been indoctrinated since childhood about the very topic they are supposedly eyewitnessing? A lot of people in Germany agreed that the problems they faced were the fault of the Jews. That reliable to you?

I appreciate the conversation James, but I see your statements as rationalizing because there is no data to back up your claims…

Maybe a God in charge of the everything. I said those gods might have been demons or something else I don’t know and I can’t ask them. Do you know consider those accounts viable? I meant with again that Gerald and I have mentioned accounts to you repeatably and you dismiss them every time. And continue to. If you dismiss things that people saw because….well I guess they can err, you are dismissing basically everything. Did you figure out radiometric dating? can you say that the people that did didn’t err. what about all atheists it’s only 15% not even a billion people maybe you are all wrong because man isn’t always right. 6 billion that believe in some sort of higher power. I know there are multiple religions in that number. I’m not saying they are all Christians. Ok. You want to know why there is “no” evidence. You dismiss all of it. So there is no point to present anything.

You can see that even in that era humans were created by gods who always were etc.. If we would have more data from Mesopotamia I think we would also find the origin stories also. This is just one of many Greeks had their origin story too.

Yes read John 3:16 – no big deal. This does not prove that the Biblical god is the true one. Prometheus also created manking and gave it fire. Similar to the Biblical god and he was there first. Please read this from wikipedia: Prometheus is a Titan in Greek mythology, best known as the deity in Greek mythology who was the creator of mankind and its greatest benefactor, who stole fire from Mount Olympus and gave it to mankind.

Prometheus is also a good example of a deity that was punished for mankind and appeared before Jesus Christ. He stole fire from Zeus for mankind and was punished for it for eternity.

I do not believe in any gods. All is just mythology and myths which is imagination. It would be the same if I would worship comic book characters who have their own mythology and super powers. They are the same as gods and also appear in books and even movies. I hope this answers your questions.

So you are debating me, on whether or not the Biblical God is the real deal, by using other “gods” that you don’t believe in? Why? If you don’t believe any “gods” exist, then say that and say that you don’t think there is evidence, like Tim. But to question the trueness of one God compared to other “gods” seems unimportant. I agree with Gerald more evidence of people believing in higher power and adds more weight to that belief. Also it is interesting the correlations between different areas and their deities.

The Biblical God is infinite (that’s from the Bible)……so I think he was there “first”, but I am having trouble finding a date for prometheus. This can go in circles, God was before pormetheus, prometheus was before God. We have several old books which I don’t know how credible they are, (in previous discussions it’s has been concluded that the Bible has information of historical events that are accurate, which gives some credibility to it) that tell of higher powers. Which one is the truest?

Tim we have evidence outside of the Bible, historical records that speak of Christ Jesus that speak of the Christians. I believe there is even one historian that refers to Christ having been crucified on the cross. It is useless to try to disprove the fact that Christ actually existed. Now as to whether he was the Christ that the Bible prophesied about, that is another discussion. But history shows how Jesus was hated by the Israelite hierarchy. It clearly shows how the Jewish leaders would have done anything to get rid of the teachings of Jesus. So after they were able to send him to the Cross using the Roman government to kill him it would have been very simple to produce the body of Jesus and get rid of all the whispers that said he actually came back from the dead. But instead we have a group of people who at one time when Jesus Christ was crucified had coward in the upper room, afraid of their own shadows and expecting the Jewish leaders to come for them. But instead the Christian teaching has spread around the world. All because the body of Jesus could never be produced. And the testimonies spread around the world that Jesus Christ had indeed been raised from the dead. So the question is why didn’t the Jewish leaders produce the body of Jesus? They surely did not want his teaching to grow. They didn’t want the disciples to preach about him. They said as much. So all they would have needed to do, was produces his body and the Christian religion would have been just a faint memory today. This along with many other evidences should cause many people to take notice and you said that it is time for them to find out for themselves whether Christ is God or not and whether his Bible is the true word of God

James said: But to question the trueness of one God compared to other “gods” seems unimportant. I agree with Gerald more evidence of people believing in higher power and adds more weight to that belief. Also it is interesting the correlations between different areas and their deities.

Gerald is mistaken and its not evidence for god or something its the evidence that people can believe stupid things. Nazi Germany people believed that they are Aryans and a super race and others are inferior is that belief based on reality?? No its not. It does not matter how many people believe in something it does not make it true and that is the truth. People believed even whole nations believed in fake things which were not true.

James said: But to question the trueness of one God compared to other “gods” seems unimportant.

No its not read about comparative religion and other things. It is a very important subject in science of religion and it shows that many religions share the same ideas. That shows that people think the same and nothing more. It gives no proof of gods. It like with comics they share similar things – like every one has a hero etc..

James wrote: The Biblical God is infinite (that’s from the Bible)……so I think he was there “first”, but I am having trouble finding a date for prometheus.

You did not get it what I am trying to say. The main reason is here this. Christians do not believe in Prometheus as their saviour or god but they believe in the Bible god who was later on and had even the same or similar ideas like Jesus. So tell me why is the Bible special James?? Why its the same piece of fiction it has the same ideas like it had with Prometheus or other ancient myths? It was not even the first book written for a god who is almighty and infinite should this be no problem at all to accomplish such a feat at the dawn of humans no? Heck this looks that gods before were the real deal they at least were the first to have their books written.

James wrote: We have several old books which I don’t know how credible they are, (in previous discussions it’s has been concluded that the Bible has information of historical events that are accurate, which gives some credibility to it) that tell of higher powers.

The Trojan War shows that in many ancient books are real historic events. That is nothing special and does add nothing to its accuracy or if the Bible god is real. Its the same like with fiction like books or comics – Captain America also faces against Hitler or the Nazis who were real beings in history or Dracula was a real historical figure but not a vampire.

So James that even when in the Bible are some historical events and others are pure fiction it does not give it credit that its real. There are many other ancient texts which claim similar historical events. Even here you can see James that the Bible copied stuff from other ancient texts – so the gods before were better writers then the Bible god?:

I am still puzzled why you argue other “gods” are the real deal and One isn’t, when you don’t believe in any of it.

6 billion people is more then Nazis and more then nations. Is there a reason you copy and paste my responses? I don’t mind but it’s a little odd when it’s just a quick scroll up. Science of religion? I don’t know how well the supernatural and beliefs, and only proven things, will ever go together. We know the same things but get different conclusions. Similar beliefs = all of them based on the true first God or people think alike. I’m trying to say that the Biblical God is first, was first and always will be first. I think prometheus is a copy of God not the other way around. If prometheus is more of a real deal then God, why did he appear before Jesus Christ? Why is the Bible special….that’s a massive question and will vary from person to person (i’ll answer at the end). As I mentioned before it was written 2,000 years ago, but has history from the beginning of time, about 6,000 years ago. So it’s not true because it was written after other books? That shouldn’t affect how true it is. If Captain America had loads of eye witnesses and stories of people seeing him, would that give him more credibility? At this point we have the same info like a lot of debates and just disagree with what it means (or that it’s even true). Is prometheus changing people’s lives today? Please don’t skip over that one to fast.

Why is the Bible special (to me)? For me it tells the story of creation and while it doesn’t say how God did it other then speaking it makes sense. For instance animals reproduce after their own kind. That’s mentioned and I can visually observe it. The stars can be used to tell the seasons and years and days. I can observe that to. It says God created everything including life, rather then a soup and a lightning bolt. I’m not a huge fan of soup. It says man isn’t basically good….I can observe that. It tells of a global flood. Creationists can back me up on that one as I am not much of scientist. I can see peoples lives changed through His power.

I think that’s a long enough post for the moment. A lot of those things will probably be dismissed by you or you’ll argue against it. The Bible also mentions that that will happen.

This only proves what Creationist have been saying all along. Where there is smoke there is fire. First why would senseless being even begin to wonder about someone greater than they. Why would the imagine as some drawing depict beings from the sky being here on earth. And why assume that gods created them. What has happened is that these are all depictions of the truth, that has been changed after having been told and retold down the years, (around 6 or 7 thousand, if you must know.). People had lost the much of the truth but God is trying to set the record straight through the Bible.

Thank you Gerald for answering my question. So you believe in the bible because creationist told you so. Thank so when you would be living in Ancient Greece then you would believe in Zeus and his pals.

You are referring to what is known as something like mass hysteria. But you are not taking into or you are refusing to take into account that not only has super natural events happened from the beginning of the time man existed, his existence being the first super natural event, they have been happening consequetively. But they have happened to people from all accross the spectrum. And primarily about those that happen to Christian group, that is the only thing that the super natural events have in common. So we are not talking about men, women, boys and girls and infants who have been invloved in these events. And all testify or are testified for, that those events were performed by God. Where no kind of chemicals were used to effect the minds of the individuals. They were not irrational, nor appearing to be selfseeking individuals. And the majority of the time the events were individually occuring. And all saying.the same.thing down though history. God performed a miracle. Are there fake occurences? Of course. But these stand out so obviously that they are immediately dealt with. The charlatans were seenn for what they were, money grubbing, power hungry individuals or groups. It can cast a bad light on the real. Until younre m ember that there are those where the factors don’t come into play. And the greatest of these are the ones where individuals had been or are trapped in lives of vices and habits that have brought them to the edge of death and desperation. Indivduals that gained nothing from one day saying that they were like that but somehow a miraculous change came info their lives and they testify that they met Jesus. In countries where to do so could mean the end of your life. Addicts and alcoholics and prostitutes and worse, all havery had this change come into their lives and they all say it was Jesus. For many the change the change is not so paramount an experience. But for the murderers and alcoholics and the like those changes are as night and day. And you may include in that group, man and women who were Atheists. Who somehow one day stepped up and declared that there really is a God and that they have had a life changing experience with Him. Now to especially try to dismiss this group is like trying to stop it from raining. They have all to lose and nothing to gain, (at least not that the eye can see), but many a noted and prominent avowed Atheist has one day stepped away from the doors of hell and entered into the courts of heaven. Now you can just dismiss this miracle if you want. But this should at least cause you to ask why and find out for yourselves firsthand. The reason behind what many have called madness. Not the terrors kind but the true Christian kind. Where love is shown to change the heart.

“I didn’t say they are wrong. I said there is zero evidence for any of it.”
This is what you are not allowing yourself to realize. Witness testimony is evidence. Even in a book as backward as you say the Bible is it refers to the testimony of two or three witnesses when a case is being reviewed. Please refer to 2 Corinthians 13:1, “This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” That is the New Testament. This is the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 19:15. “15 “One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.”
And our court systems still adhere to this as evidence. You may not be able to take the witnesses and store them in an evidence bag, but the testimony of the witnesses are submitted as or are entered in as evidence. So all of the Christians who have ever lived and who are living today are witnesses of the saving power of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now, to give this point a greater emphasis. Remember if you can, some individuals have been incarcerated. And some of them, after having been in prison for so long, have been released simply because they have exhibited such an about face from when they first entered prison. And when you look at quite a few Christians. Look at the lives they used to live. Smoking, drinking, drugs, women haters and beaters, or woman users. Self centered and egotistical. Murderers, thieves, liars. Not caring for God or anyone but themselves. And when these individuals come to know Christ, the change is so notable that often times they are accused of trying to get out of prison, or its another ploy to be able to continue getting what they want. But a Christian life can not be hid. At least not for long. And this is what happens to what some of us may call bad people. But with Christ, all He sees is His people who need help. Some of us have secret sins. No one else knows about our secret lives. When we get behind closed doors. The times when we don’t report fairly to the IRS. The secret sites we to to on the Internet. The clandestine meetings that may or may not include sexual intimacy, yet is robbing time and more from our true spouse. God is calling for complete and utter surrender of our lives to Him, because He knows that if any piece of sin remains in our hearts, if we withhold anything that would keep us from accepting Him completely, then that will keep us from trusting Him completely. So those who have given their lives to Christ must allow Him to live within them and so that He can live the type of life that He lived while actually walking among man when He was here. So Christians are constantly growing. Growing in their knowledge of who God is and growing to be more like Him through His Holy Spirit. And it is in which direction we are leaning that determines whose we are. Not in when we fall and make a mistake. But in which direction we run when we get back up. “Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us”

From Halil:
There are many NDE cases where a child below age 10 will have an NDE, which is exactly the same as an adult case. They will see a tunnel, a light, Jesus, Mary, some report sitting on Jesus’s lap, etc. How could a 4 year old who doesn’t know he or she is about to die (let’s say they drown or get hit by a car from behind) have an OBE and see all this religious imagery? My guess would have been that they might have seen a tunnel and light as that could be a biological factor of what the brain does under stress, and maybe their parents kind of swayed them into the whole Jesus direction. These kids have interviews and can be found all over the internet. However, we are told that the kids tell the nurse right after the experience so that the kids.could not have told their parents, implying that the parents could not have influenced them. I know some may lie, but assuming some don’t intentionally lie, what would you say about that? Dr. Morse did tests on kids who were on meds and drugs and not near death, found they didn’t have the same experiences.

The exact circumstances, and the elements that make the story suspect, are a bit different each time. Sometimes the kid is steeped in religious imagery from an early age. Sometimes the first person to question the kid about the experience asks leading questions, essentially feeding in the information, often without meaning to (and that could be the nurse). Sometimes it can’t be confirmed who the kid talked to first and in what circumstances, and while the story as told sounds airtight it’s just too dodgy to take at face value.

Whatever the case, it does seem that being near death is truly a unique experience for the brain that can’t be easily simulated with drugs, or we could all go on the same trip with a doctor’s help.

You leave out all the other things that make miracles real for the Christian. Miracles have a greater weight because the Bible supplies many examples of different kind of miracles. And some of these are repeatedly mentoned in other books of the Bible which give them more weight of plausibility. Then add to that the miraculous growth of the Christian Church supplying greater reason to believe the miraculous resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. Adding to this that there are many witnesses who are from all walks of life. Who are from different ethnicities and finanacial means. All who testify of having been part of the miracle of meeting Jesus down through history. Having their lives changed by this encounter, which for some was ground shaking and for others was quiet and peaceful. Yet they all testify taht,they met Jesus. Topping that off with the fact that what the atheist has to offer as the explanation for life on this planet leaves much to be explained, having holes in their arguments that lack any means of logical explanation.

“Well, 3.8 billion. There is 1+ billion that believe in a totally different set of gods”. Tim, to this you are correct. But they all for some reason they believe there are supreme beings. But let me tell you a little secret. God the true God, does not, not accept their worship because they don’t know who the true God is. (YET). He knows that we can get mixed up because of all the lies that are out there. So what He is ultimately looking for are the ones who are living up to know what they know to be the truth that they know. For example. Some of the things that God had to deal with in the biblical days were not what He ultimately wanted for His people. But He couldn’t change everything overnight. So when they did that He wouldn’t have wanted that way, He looked the other way. Knowing that these people really wanted to do what is right, but they didn’t know better. But there were things that could not be over looked. Like when even after bringing the Israelites out of slavery, with them seeing all the miracles He performed in front of them, for some of them to be downright disrespectful, in front of His people, could not be tolerated. So they were punished in one way or another. But when they married two many wives or something else that was just a matter of not knowing what was right or not really knowing Him, He could put it to the side for a later date to be revealed.

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