I like to play this weird game where I create formulas to calculate a kind of, well, "fun factor", I guess power to weight ratio. I divide ft lbs of torque at a certain RPM (or adjust variables), with respect to curb weight.

I was doing this with AE100s and Whatever the hell the chassis code is for 97-01 ES300s. Somehow I started looking up NHTS crash test ratings on those same chassis, and started going down that rabbit hole.

Then I researched just what the hell J.D. Power Associate's awards actually were, and...

Then, I jumped randomly into researching reliability of a passenger car with respect to ownership (of specifically Korean/Japanese descent as they are the top contenders cheap reliable cars, with ford always around..), and the COST of long-term car ownership. I wasn't surprised, and yet I was. I knew from mechanics that while both Kia and Hyundai, on the surface, are the top contenders for "best bang for buck", they end up being some of the most expensive in the long run.

Granted, these results are only from OBD2 (or is it 3 now?) scan tools, but it's a good large number sampling, and I think the best true and unbiased data.

What's interesting, is while the KDM is obviously light-years ahead of where they were in the 90's/early 2000's, people fail to realize they get very expensive to maintain. Costs of individual repairs might not cost more in the short term, but end up costing more with respect to the FREQUENCY of repairs.

The Kia Soul, still did very well. You have to admit, to beat the most cost-efficient vehicle (in terms of maintenance costs), the Prius, you REALLY have to get your **** together in terms of Quality Assurance and management.

However, and this is my underpinning argument, the culture of Korean manufacturing still refuses to focus on quality over quantity. I mean, if two (basically one) KDM companies can outsell the long-established JDM "top five", in a way in which the normal budget-minded American shopper would have no major problem with, why should they care?

I won't get into Edward Demming, or any of that fun stuff, but Korea is not the same as Japan. Many of you, like me, have seen the country first hand and how important it is to meet strict requirements in a multitude of norms.

Because, getting back to the data, the cost of owning either a Hyundai or Kia start to grow exponentially after about 140-160k miles. Repairs become VERY costly, and it seems that the cost of having a cheaper repair cost initially, really backfires in later years of ownership.

But, then, I remembered peaking at a 2015/16 Camry as I was bored out of my mind with Grandma at the car dealership. They had a very interesting sticker (which I loved seeing), showing the break down of WHERE the parts came from, WHO assembled them, and the total make-up after percentages. I won't go down this rabbit hole, but it's a very interesting sticker you'll see a lot these days due to new statutes NHTS has enforced.

Example of "Parts Content Sticker"

I can't remember exactly, but It was something like most parts sourced for things like engines/transmissions were Japan-sourced, while things like body parts were domestically sourced. The biggest take-away, at least to me, was how many were actually assembled in the U.S.

So it really becomes interesting that not only can Japanese automakers take a 1986 MR-2, put it on a rickety boat with tie-down straps, sail it through the Sea of Japan, and the Pacific, and outsell domestic car-makers on a laughable level, THEN, 30 years later, take a Prius, build it in America, and do the same thing all over again, all the while maintaining the top-standing cost and reliability rating.

The problem is, I can't decide whether we as Americans (as a whole, not just Japanese niche chassis enthusiasts), and the everyday shopper, actually care if a car goes to 150k? And even then, most of them probably don't focus on long-term cost and reliability. If it's got good ratings, low-initial sticker price, low initial repair cost, then does it matter if it gets expensive?

I ask this because I have two siblings that will be ready to drive soon. Even though I think a bulletproof 90's civic/Toyota is the best you can do, these cars are just too old for non Japanese-niche auto enthusiasts. As it stands, I think I would recommend a 2017/2018 Civic, as it's the best in it's class. I think Toyota's econoboxes are just too fat, slow, and un-attractive (which is amazing because I think the 3rd gen Lexus IS/NX/RX etc. line-up is some of the sexiest styling I've seen in a while, and I also admit that the 2018 Corolla looks very nice with a low curb weight, even if it's under-powered). I've realized I'm not a Honda guy, but damn, I think those new hatches look so nice.. and have great reviews from picky auto-enthusiasts and reviewers. And, I just feel sort of proud of Honda for making the Type R. I make fun of it because it's a 3,500 lb FWD civic, but they are really trying to keep the driving spirit alive.

Sorry but long term reliability and cost-efficient vehicle maintenance, is really low on the list for USA mfgr when designing vehicles for the domestic market. The Mfgr's are only looking in terms of warranty requirements. They have three main goals, cost, crash rating, and EPA fuel. Once the vehicle is off warranty, it's the customers dime. I've sat in design meetings where they package the engine so tight that you could not replace the alternator with out pulling the engine. When I asked about maintenance, the chief engineer, sampling stated it off warrant by then! Dave

davew7 wrote:Sorry but long term reliability and cost-efficient vehicle maintenance, is really low on the list for USA mfgr when designing vehicles for the domestic market. The Mfgr's are only looking in terms of warranty requirements. They have three main goals, cost, crash rating, and EPA fuel. Once the vehicle is off warranty, it's the customers dime. I've sat in design meetings where they package the engine so tight that you could not replace the alternator with out pulling the engine. When I asked about maintenance, the chief engineer, sampling stated it off warrant by then! Dave

Yupp, I agree with Dave on this one. The general public doesn't give a sh*t about getting their hands dirty and working on cars like they used to, and manufacturers know that. What us "car guys" think of reliability and maintenance is totally different than your Aunt Karen and her Kia. Their version of reliability is more along the lines of "how long can I go without having to get the car serviced".

Obviously, anything will last a long time if you take care of it, but the general public doesn't really care about that. In this day and age, if something is bad, you just get a new one. I think as time passes by we'll start to see that these new cars just wont hold up as well as some of the old stuff, for example a 90s Camry Lol.

Always a pleasure hearing your thoughts Dave.. You got more stories than a retired federal agent.

I saw that article a while back Jay! . My google searches kept throwing that up for some reason..

I completely agree with you guys, I just think, if anything, it becomes even more interesting that those top 3 companies would even bother caring about reliability in a cold world where it's not at the forefront. Especially Toyota, since everyone thinks all Toyo's are as reliable as the 22R Pick-ups.

I just hope they keep it up. It's amazing when I see brand new cars (I'm talking 2017/2018) who are broke down on the side of the expressway I frequently commute. I'm sure a lot of it is tire/gas issues, but still!

davew7 wrote:Sorry but long term reliability and cost-efficient vehicle maintenance, is really low on the list for USA mfgr when designing vehicles for the domestic market. The Mfgr's are only looking in terms of warranty requirements. They have three main goals, cost, crash rating, and EPA fuel. Once the vehicle is off warranty, it's the customers dime. I've sat in design meetings where they package the engine so tight that you could not replace the alternator with out pulling the engine. When I asked about maintenance, the chief engineer, sampling stated it off warrant by then! Dave

Sorry to jump on this one late (been away from the forums for a while) but I definitely agree with everything here. I have a few non-enthusiast friends who just use their car for a daily commute. They were both looking for new cars and asked me my opinion since they know I'm into cars.The first expressed how he was thinking of getting rid of his mid 2000s corolla with a little under 100k and getting something new. I asked him why he wanted a new car since his still had a lot of life in it. He replied that he didn't want to have to take it in for repairs as it got older. He asked me what were the best car brands (as he had always heard Toyota and Honda were the best) His top priorities were: reliability and mpg. The second actually got a new car and showed me it. It was a hyundai hybrid of some sort. She was most impressed with the different technologies and mpg that it got.

So in conclusion, from what I have seen with other friends I have (early 20s), most people are interested in having cars with cool features that don't break and don't need that much service. They don't see themselves keeping them to the point of needing to get any major repairs. Cars are seen as more disposable as before (which is what I think auto makers want) and are not expected to last as long as a 95 camry.

It is mostly , That newer and newer generations dont want to work on cars or put the time and effort to craft something, thats the trend in all of retail and services if you looks at different market its the same.

For example new CVT transmissions they are design to be non-Serviceable for the ease and more cost effective to company not consumers . If its bad just simply replace the Whole trans. Rather than older Automatic type or manuel transmission you can take it apart replace just the failed part (sychro’s, bearing, torque converter ETC’s) this method is too cost effective because now you have to train mechanics how to, not only remove n replace the part but now dissemble the part. Also the human Liabilities,such as work man comp and tech. Error companys factor all that in to the end products.

Also for a market that is changing (newer/younger car buyers) they just want to get place to place Not having to worry about other stuff. Not really into REAL motorsports or being a car enthusiasts.so the car designs change to fit the new model of car buyer ( more Tech, touch screen,Safety alerts, pandora, Spotify,ipod/iphone & Android Ready, bluetooth connect.) all these are now mostly standerd in any new car.

Gotta remember back in the days what sold cars was Horsepower and sport modes and features.

My vote goes for 90's/00's civic 5spd, pick a body style. For new drivers a 2 door is fine as a lot of states won't let them have many passengers during licensing probation anyhow. Parts are everywhere, dirt cheap, as simple to work on as a complicated car from the 60's lol, and should they ever get into cars the platform has pretty much endless options. You can always add heated seats, a touch screen double DIN, and all manner of other nonsense down the road.

Big bonus for being able to pick up a set of stock steelies with snow tires for cheap - you know, if you happen to see that sort of thing.