Terry created the method. It initially was to be a MIST not a soaking.

Then Terry changed it to what you now see in his personal blog on GG.

Ed has used his own version of the method.

So... Who made the changes first? Terry? Ed?

I am not sure, and quite honestly, I don't think it matters.

I am more concerned with the fact that what is out there now is to SOAK the gliders. I am more concerned with the fact that people are (or have, I suppose) soaked their gliders for introductions. I am concerned with the photographs and video that I have seen displaying this.

(yes, what is shown in the videos and pictures, and what Terry outlined in his blog, is not what Ed is doing specifically -- but this isn't all about what Ed is doing. It's about the method in and of itself).

~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin

Which is why we should try to help make this method that is going to be used one way or the other safer for the glider's involved! There is no other way around it so it's best we all work together to improve as much as possible! Make sure new owners know better than to try this method as much as possible! Make sure it is ABSOLUTELY a last resort and done in a safe and humane way!

I have been watching this thread closely for a few days now and have seen many passionate posts for and against the topic, which is understandable with so many different views. I agree with previous posters above that maybe it is time to come to a compromise of sorts since everyone is standing firmly on their beliefs and views. From what I managed to read, I have the following concerns:

1) The well-being of the gliders involved in this method physically and mentally2) The method being used for the wrong reasons (not as a last resort) or drastically (not following the method correctly and making it more of a danger)3) The negative affect this could have on the glider community

Bottom line is, I don't agree with this method and from what I have seen many people don't. And because so many people disagree with it I can easily see this being used against the glider community. For example:

"By contrast, almost all the internet “expert” websites and “chatrooms” out there nowadays still rely on very old - and extremely out of date - care and dietary information that we purposely stopped using MANY years ago. These sites simply REFUSE to embrace any new advancements - and instead resort to spreading false rumors and innuendo about anyone who disagrees with them; all the while passionately clinging to the claims that “their way” is the ONLY way, and that doing anything else will harm - or even kill Gliders."

This is what (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets says about us as a community already and they have far worse things to say on their other websites about chatrooms and forums. My fear is that the wide sharing of this method is ammunition for a (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets or other mill breeder's gun, and not necessarily by exploiting this method but merely blowing it out of proportion, especially with so many disagreeing with it. As a community our goal is to always educate new owners, current owners and potential owners on proper care for their gliders. For potential owners researching, the conflicting information out there is confusing enough, between Youtube vets, and sugar bear websites. Now they may stumble on select sites and see pictures and videos of this method and possibly be horrified into maybe getting a glider from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and using their care instructions. Whether community members disagree or agree with this method does not matter, but the majority of the public will not stand for it and it will without a doubt shed some negative light on all of us, not just those practicing this method. Due to this, I honestly believe that maybe this method should not be widely shared through videos on youtube or detailed instructions on websites. Maybe it is a method that is better shared within a community, between friends or PMs in SEVERE cases ONLY. That way we don't have to fear a negative light, or an inexperienced owner doing this method incorrectly. As far as improving the technique goes, I do not have any ideas, and that should probably be for experienced vets to decide, because if a vet approves of a different and safer method of drastic introductions it will surely be more widely accepted throughout the glider community and the public. I am still eager to see everyone's suggestions however.

Ed (the Ed that runs the show here on Glider central) thanks for being so level headed and trying to get us all re-directed rather than shutting down this thread.

I mentioned this elsewhere:"As for dominance/alpha roles in colony/pack animals. I have some experience in this area. Sugar gliders are very similar to larger pack animals in their role play in the pack/colony. I can tell you from experience that "roles" are NOT written in stone. 2 gliders put in this position after all other methods have failed, may one day decide they really dont like being together and will fight. And we all know a fight can become life threatening in seconds. If the 2 gliders end up staying friends forever, they most likely would have accepted each other eventually using other methods.

We also all know that gliders who have been together for years sometimes decide to not get along and it can get ugly, so why take a greater risk and force 2 together that wouldnt accept each other under more normal circumstances?"

It is our responsibility as their caretakers to have enough intelligence, compassion, and patience to do the right thing by the animal, not ourselves.

To be honest, at this point, I do think this subject has been argued to death. The GG Ed is not an idiot. We wont change his mind. He knows all the sides. So I will appeal directly to him one last time, Ed, please look at these creatures as little people, and ask yourself how you would feel if this was done to you? Isnt there another way less scary? If a lone glider needs a companion so bad, why did you need to force him to accept one in this manner? I wanted another guinea pig, found an adorable one, but decided to not adopt him because I really dont have the time to give him in companionship. That is what is thinking for the animal is all about. Their needs not mine. If a lone glider rejects other gliders, and needs to be forced, maybe he wanted YOU (or someone other than THAT glider)as a companion? No time? Then give him to someone who DOES have the time.

I love the rescue idea. I want to start one myself someday, but we cannot rescue them all. A rescue is not a rescue if you take them in to give them a better home and life, and end up not spending enough time with them because you have so many. Did the quality of LIFE improve or just their diet? We need to work together as a community and spread the responsibility out to help more gliders and improve their QUALITY of LIFE, not be divided over this.

Last edited by JillMarie; 01/12/1104:54 AM. Reason: clarified a few points

I spoke with Ed who seems to be very open to changing things about the method! He is a very smart man who is well prepared to admit he was wrong if this pairing doesn't work! I would be more than happy to share with you what he had to say if you are interested feel free to PM me! At this point we are doing nothing but running him off the board which isn't neccissary he is a very intelligent man who has alot to offer! I don't agree with the wet method but I think we as a community should FOR ONCE work together instead of fighting against each other! I ran across this thread here on GC that everyone should read!http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/923657/Gliders_hate_fear_water

I agree, I dont think as a board we should be scaring people away. Whether we like his method or not I think he is worth it as a recuer. GC gets a bad wrap for this stuff (even when we are more civil than most other boards) And i am, personally, sick of the snickers and backlash. Cant we all just get along!

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

Ed (the Ed that runs the show here on Glider central) thanks for being so level headed and trying to get us all re-directed rather than shutting down this thread.

BTW JillMarie, its "Eddie" on here!

Originally Posted By: HeatherB

Maybe it is a method that is better shared within a community, between friends or PMs in SEVERE cases ONLY. That way we don't have to fear a negative light, or an inexperienced owner doing this method incorrectly.

I'm not so worried about the negative light on myself for not agreeing with this technique nearly as much as the concern I have for the gliders. However, I have to agree that IF a drastic method is REQUIRED and done under the direct supervision of a vet, these drastic methods should not be published for newbies to see as an easy way out. If this method must be used, it should only be done with that direct supervision - not by someone seeing pictures and videos on the internet. Sometimes I feel we are too free to share information in attempts of improving the lives of gliders. Take a step back and ask yourself "How would a newbie take this?"

Maybe it is a method that is better shared within a community, between friends or PMs in SEVERE cases ONLY. That way we don't have to fear a negative light, or an inexperienced owner doing this method incorrectly.

I'm not so worried about the negative light on myself for not agreeing with this technique nearly as much as the concern I have for the gliders. However, I have to agree that IF a drastic method is REQUIRED and done under the direct supervision of a vet, these drastic methods should not be published for newbies to see as an easy way out. If this method must be used, it should only be done with that direct supervision - not by someone seeing pictures and videos on the internet. Sometimes I feel we are too free to share information in attempts of improving the lives of gliders. Take a step back and ask yourself "How would a newbie take this?"

After reading lots the last couple of days and collecting more information, I think I need to say a few things.

I have seen some pictures and some videos. I'm not sure that they are the same pictures and videos that everyone else saw; they were the videos made my Kazko. The reason that I say that it because after seeing them, I wonder why there has been this much of an uproar. I see nothing in those videos that would or should have caused this much commotion. I saw some gliders that were stressed, in the beginning but not overly stressed before the water. After the water they seemed to calm down. Almost like the water soothed them. If that is what everyone is calling abuse, you ain't seen nothing. I also saw and heard a very calm and caring person performing the water introduction. I can now say that if I ever felt the need to use this method of introduction, I would gather more information and consider using it mysef.

I have to question the references to newbies and implying that all of them are ignorant. Isn't that the same excuse that Virgil of Perfect Pocket Pets used for all the lies that he tells people? Something like the public isn't smart enough to do it right? Most people are intelligent enough to do what is right if given complete information. Sure, I think you are always going to have a few people who take short cuts. But I don't think that is the fault of the creator. It is the fault of those who don't read and follow directions. If a newbie decided that calcium wasn't necessary in a diet and their glider developed MBD, would we point fingers at the creator of the diet?

As I read here it seems like some of you, all of a sudden think that you have the right to dictate how a rescue should be run. That all you have to do is agree and then submit your wish list and the Rescue has to comply. Heaven help us if we have come to that and a good established organization like LGRS can no longer set their own policies or make decisions based on their own experience. This whole thing kind of reminds me of a small group of people not long ago that decided they would set the standards on how each of us should run our personal businesses. In the end it is the rescues responsibility to make choices for the animals they take in. They are the ones who pay the bills, stay up late tending to the sick, miss dinner dates or gatherings and more. And in the end it really doesn't matter if we agree on their methods or not. It is theirs to run as the choose. As long as basic common since things like medical, food, and shelter are met, we have no right to step in.

Abuse....from someone who has seen it, and as someone who knows the laws, I can tell you that nothing I have read or seen constitutes abuse. I certainly see nothing that could even remotely be compared to water boarding. Many of you need to get your emotions under control and actually read the laws. I think that if there is a silver lining to all of this, it is that some of you are finally doing a little research into the laws that pertain to the animals. If any of you still feel that this is abuse, please show me the law so I can investigate it. Really, I would love to see it.

Originally Posted By: WintersSong

I don't understand how we can compare wild animals to our pets. The wild animals are exposed to the elements, whereas ours have been sheltered from them. To me, that's a pretty important difference between the two.

It is imperative to understand life in the wild when setting parameters for our pet animals and to stimulate species typical behavior as closely as possible. Having said that, the real crime here is probably that we don't expose them to water in some form which may cause an unnatural fear of water.

Edit to add:One more thing. I find it highly unusual for a professional such as a veterinarian to give a professional opinion without reviewing all the facts in a case. Even when I held a victim of abuse in my hand, my vet choose her words very carefully so that nothing she said could be misconstrued or libelous.

I have to question the references to newbies and implying that all of them are ignorant. Isn't that the same excuse that Virgil of Perfect Pocket Pets used for all the lies that he tells people? Something like the public isn't smart enough to do it right? Most people are intelligent enough to do what is right if given complete information. Sure, I think you are always going to have a few people who take short cuts.

Anita, I don't think newbies are ignorant, nor was my comment meant to imply that. They take info they read, expecially if it's published by who seems to be a "reputable source" and think everything they read is valid. Look at the videos put out by that vet, not a good source of information IMO, but since it's published by a vet, newbies will believe it. It's all in the presentation.

My point here is that there is so much bad and controversial information on the internet. You know as well as I do that we are constantly correcting people on things they read/see on the internet.

That's why I am saying to look at it from their perspective before something is published. The "fine print" isn't usually read, unfortunately people don't read everything. And no, that doesn't make it the creator's fault if practices aren't followed as intended. But we, as the creators, also have the responsibility of making sure it's presented as fullyand safely as possible (not saying they aren't, speaking generally here) ~ or be responsible enough to not publish it at all.

Shelly, it was pure coincidence that my post came after yours. I was not singling you out. I was referring to many comments about newbies throughout this post.

What is bad information and good information in this community seems to depend on who you are talking with and who is friends with who. Much of what we put out as iron clad has been passed from generation to generation without question. We still have much to learn and should be open to learn. Many of the things that we swear by will be obsolete in a few years while other things will prove out time and time again.. and that is how it should be. It is right to question and discuss controversial issues with hard clear evidence. It is never right to threaten, belittle, twist things or make assumptions like we have seen it this post and others across the glider forums.

If we have problems with the videos that Perfect Pocket Pets has put out, it is our responsibility to dispute them with clear evidence. As far as I know there is only one person who has attempted that...Ed of LGRS. How ironic is that? So if you or any one else is so worried about (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and their bad information. Stop talking to me about it and do what is necessary to dispute it. Go out to the forums, and FB and show YOUR research. JMO

I have seen some pictures and some videos. I'm not sure that they are the same pictures and videos that everyone else saw; they were the videos made my Kazko. The reason that I say that it because after seeing them, I wonder why there has been this much of an uproar. I see nothing in those videos that would or should have caused this much commotion.

Anita, there were pics on Facebook of someone who used this method because she wanted to put her two cages of multiple gliders together. These were not single gliders but gliders that the owner wanted to downsize into one cage. In the pics you can clearly see the cage in the shower and the water running from the shower head directly on them. The owner stated she left them like this for over an hour. I think the uproar was that this method was made public, that people were using it for their own selfish reasons, not to benefit the gliders, and that not enough time was spent to intro gliders using old fashioned methods. There were more pics but all have been removed.

So your beef is with the person on FB who clearly did not follow directions? So why was LGRS or Kazko drug into this and tortured?

If LGRS had done this secretly, and it leaked out, this whole community would have been in an uproar over people sneaking around. LGRS was correct in publishing what they were trying. I admire those who openly show their records. It is not their fault that someone did things in an untested way. This process, if it works out, could be revolutionary. Or it might not...

The communities beef is that they are putting together gliders that clearly do not want to be put together, getting them soaked, putting mouthwash on their cloaca (never stating non-alcoholic) which could cause burning, make them sit like this for over an hour until exhausted, forcing these scared, wet, exhausted gliders into a bonding pouch with gliders they did not want to be put together, leaving them in a small cage with nothing but one pouch and withholding food for a night. Doesn't that seem harsh?

This is all I want to say and then I'm done. This is already getting so long as is.

The thing is, I don't understand why it is so hard for Ed and Kazko to just take the method down from public view. The big fear is that newbies will see this and try it just to save themselves time and effort. This has already been proven with the woman on Facebook. You say that you only trickle water on them and rub it in. From the photos I saw, she clearly had water running onto the cage. She has only had gliders a short time. So the fear that newbies will do this is already happening. It will continue to happen. That I think, is one of the big issues. What you guys do in your own homes, none of us can do anything about. It's your business whether or not we like it or agree. So since the majority thinks it's appalling and cruel...why is it so hard to just remove it from public view? Take down the videos, take down the 'how to' instructions. Do what you want in your own homes as we cannot stop you, but for God's sake, don't let your instructional boasting lead to something terrible when someone tries it themselves and fails. So many bad things can happen, just because they didn't happen these last few times, surely, it can in the future. I never saw anywhere that you used non alcoholic mouthwash. You only just now said you did. But even if you did, I'm sure the non alcoholic burns just the same and when the gliders go to clean it off....can you say for certain that the mouthwash they ingest is alright for their systems?

So really, I think what the majority is asking is please just take it down from public view. Do whatever in your own home but please stop advertising this method out in the open, it can be too appealing to new people and so many things can go wrong. Let's not forget that there are MANY teenagers who will try this. I am just surprised that you are ok with this.

I'm glad it worked for you with no problems so far. (Even though I disagree with it entirely) But let's not open the portal for bad things to happen to other people. You know?

So your beef is with the person on FB who clearly did not follow directions? So why was LGRS or Kazko drug into this and tortured?

Most likely because Kazko introduced this "method" and LGRS used the same "method"....and blogged about it, with instructions.

So, if this Brenda person came along, read it...or skimmed the blog (whichever) and then put her own spin on this "method" without emailing Kazko or Ed and asking questions regarding the instructions, are they to "blame" (for lack of a better word)?? Depends on who you ask.

I didnt read the blog personally, but is it stated ANYWHERE....a disclaimer of sorts, telling people that this "method" is/was a LAST resort and to follow the instructions AS IS?? Or state that if there are any questions on this "method" to contact them or get a vets advice/opinion BEFORE attempting this?

And I hardly think we are being "torturous" with Ed. We are concerned and worried about this method of intros and as you can clearly see...99.9% of us are extremely passionate about the care and welfare of gliders.

Speaking as someone who lost one of my precious babies (flyer)last night, I certainly understand that passion for animals. What I don't understand it the vengeance and hurtfulness that I see in the glider community against their fellow man who share that passion. No more than I understand the twisting of words and facts to make a point, befriending (be careful Ed) someone until you get the “scoop” on them and then feeding them to the wolves, the popularity contests, the deceptions and plotting, destroying anyone who has done better than you, or the at all cost desire to be known as the “ultimate glider savior of the world”, or any of the strange deeds that seems tobe running rampant across the forums pertaining to this subject.

My emotions are probably too raw right now and I should probably just close my mouth so I think that is exactly what I am going to do. I won't be returning to this subject nor any other for awhile.

I don't really think that anyone is doing this to gain recognition from anyone tho as I have stated before I am not them and can't tell anyone else what they are thinking. I personally don't want any rescue to close. I did take the time to let Ed know who I am and what I thought about the method and the fact that I don't condone it and wouldn't reccommend it's use as I felt he had the right to know who opposed the method and why I did. I did openly let him and everyone else know that I had no desire to have him closed but would sign a petition asking him to stop using the method and I sure he knows that. Will that make him stop using it? Well he himself has stated that he would use it again if he felt the need to and he does have that right as you stated it is his rescue to do with as he saw fit. As to wither what he is doing violates any laws I will leave that up to the proper authorities to decide. I have not attacked him personally. Tho I have attacked the method. But I feel he knows that too. I have certainly not hidden in the shadows about how I feel about the method. But I have also not asked to be patted on the back for standing up and trying to be a voice of reason. In closing I will also state that Ed isn't the only person in the community who is working very hard at disputing the horrible information that is online about how to care for gliders. Just to name the first 2 that comes to mind there is TGI and SPIN (I know there are more out there so forgive me if I did not mention your group). Do they not get any credit for the work they are doing? Isn't that in fact what they are trying to do now with this method?

Now why not use this thread and time to discuss what can be possibly changed so different methods can produce the same results.

How about the community start trying to find new inventive ways of doing things for GLIDERS and improving things instead of sitting around waiting to pull out their pitch forks and light their torches for a change!

There will be NO MORE posts about petitions being signed and continuing to rehash the same over and over only to keep this thread going. I'm pretty sure Ed gets how you all feel by now.

We have tried our best to keep this thread open hoping it would take a turn to some constructive ideas but have yet to see that happen.