It isn't science that debunks god - religion does it on its own. We don't need solid facts to disprove religious beliefs. All we have to do is look
at all the illogical claims to know that the biblical gods aren't real.

1. There were thousands of messiahs worshiped before Jesus was born, but out of all those Jesus is the REAL one?
2. God was never born and will never die - He is eternal. Yet, god made man in his image and likeness. Well, if god is eternal why does he need a nose
to breath with? A mouth to eat with? Can god die of suffocation or starvation?
3. Yet, god made man in his image and likeness. On that likeness part, do you really want to worship a god that is like us (warring, hateful,
self-serving, cruel...)?
4. God is all-knowing, yet there are a few passages in the bible where god is quoted as saying, "Now I know..." To Abraham he said, "Now I know
that you fear me." If god is all-knowing how could he NOT know this before testing Abraham?
5. Of the ten commandments - thou shalt not steal, murder, lie, sleep with another man's wife - do you honestly believe the people of that time
didn't already frown on such behavior?

I could go on and on, but if you're THAT religious you will just come up with wholly irrational excuses for these inconsistencies.

Was god so weak that he couldn't prevent Satan from entering the garden?

Of course you would say that god was not weak. So, that means god allowed Satan to enter the garden and tempt Eve. Which in turn means that god and
Satan are working together. Which means they are not enemies. Which means that Satan was not thrown out of heaven. Which means there was no war in
heaven. Which means the whole story of Satan is a complete fabrication.

Was god so weak that he couldn't prevent Satan from entering the garden?

Well then what about Jesus? A den of robbers somewhere as it is written. And there is no such thing as angels or help. And I said there is no God
there is only me and you and a evil prison known as the bible and the anthem of God and murdering. You know how that is sit around and drink coffee
all day and talk about the bible.

Your opinions are dry not cutting edge don't mean to say but the middle east that is where it is hot and heavy now everyone knows that. Jigger I think
we are getting real close to the second coming. My dome light in my chevy won't turn off! Please be sober when Jesus comes because it is not going to
be long. The middle east is the place that he predicted actually when you see armies surrounding Jerusalem then you know that it is here.

The door creaks open. For it is God's will that you should do right.

Jigger do you want to walk around in a nice bubble where life is always a balmy seventy eight degrees? God is not doing that.

The bigger churches and their "big" ego competitions that have nothing to do with faith.

This faith you speak of, it is THEE most destructive force on this planet. You have your faith, he has his faith, she has her faith, and none of them
agree with each other. And that's why people are fighting each other right now. They want you to have the exact same faith. This actually wouldn't be
so bad if that faith was in a totally peaceful and benign god that inspires his children to be the best they can be in any endeavor, instead of being
the god of 'Don't do that, Don't do this, Don't think this, Don't try that...' This is a god of restrictions, commandments, and punishments.

You jigger seem to think that we live in a perfect world or that a perfect world could be here if we just were like grown ups and said that the bible
is the reason for all of the possessed people who are screwing it up and for their own control and lust and mainly greed. I don't agree. There you go
Mr. Perfect.

I would not napalm the whole bible as you are doing and the word of god because there are a couple of verses that seem foreing strange to you. I will
admit that many verses don't make a lot of sense the one about the nephelim did not until I hear about the breeding program with the aliens that the
government is taking part in and yeah now I know what Jesus meant when he say such as it were. Well how about a shake at a fast food place that sounds
like the name of an exotic weapons program, have an arctic orange as you know that is a space based weapons platform meant to take out a ma and pa
sitting on. This age is hopefully gone. They have to leave me lone you haters as Jackie chan would say.

This is what happens when words meant to be understood spiritually by those in the Body of Christ/Temple of God/Church of God, are read by someone
physically that wants nothing to do with God or His way of life.

OP, you see what you are meant to see, if you see fairy tales; so be it. In this present age, your mind is yours to determine what is true and false
in life with.

In God's perfect timing, you will at some point understand every word recorded in both new and old testaments spiritually (in spirit and in truth) and
you will cry out to God in thankfulness and humility when that time comes (great white thrown). This present age is not that time. The "Good News"
is God has a plan to prove all that is true to every man, woman and child that has ever walked the Earth, lived and died; even if that plan is seen as
"fairy tales" to the intellectually vain in the present age (by perfect design).

This is what happens when words meant to be understood spiritually by those in the Body of Christ/Temple of God/Church of God, are read by
someone physically that wants nothing to do with God or His way of life.

This is what happens when stuff is written ambiguously. That's not our fault. Even the Christians have 4,000 methods of spiritually interpreting it.
4,000 different meanings and approaches. 4,000 different reasons to raise my eyebrows and slowly back away.

defcon5
The advice is that God will provide if you are faithful to him. Its actually good advice, and I've witnessed in action in my own life. Man enslaves
man through jobs, unnecessary 'goods' and 'services', that keep you a prisoner having to work to pay for these things.

This goes into what the mark is at the end times. Its all about making your government your God and depending on this system to take care of your
needs and safety vs putting your faith in your real God.

Pastors like John Hagee are murderous in the way they teach the gospel they are supposedly for the helpless but it is not so they turning this country
into a continual place for fear and wanting the military to back everything he says especially when it comes to the middle east and blast those
heathens to the next millenium and drop some carpet bombs on those places until Jesus comes back on his happy ship.

The truth is like a butter knife it does not always make the pretty and clean cut through a steak or anything but it will work and you learn and
develop yourself. Maybe you can light a candle and sing Hanukah songs and look at some fossilized eggs and see an embryo of an advanced bird. My home
being not this earth but some place up in the stars far, far away. Like extremely far away a very distant place. The only thing that really matters to
me is to go back home.

Jesus was able to take a 5 loaves of bread and two fishes and feed 5000 people with it. He also did it on at least two separate occasions.

All of your references are from one book. Why would you believe in it when all of these things supposedly happened 2000 years ago and before then? If
god and Jesus communicated and appeared to the masses of long ago, why not now? Why not take five loaves of bread and two fishes and ask Jesus to feed
the millions of starving today with it?

Back then, everyone could see such wonders as dead saints roaming the city. Why not today? Why were such events possible back then, but not now? It's
no good to say that we have to have faith when the people back then didn't need faith at all. They were supposedly SHOWN solid evidence of god's
power. They saw rivers turn red with blood, waters parting for the escaping Israelites. The Egyptians supposedly saw hail fall from the sky and burst
into flame. They saw Jesus alive after being dead for three days. They saw Jesus rise into the air to ascend into heaven.

What signs do WE get? We get people whose fillings turn into gold. We get gold dust and jewels appearing out of nowhere. We get scam artists and
hoaxes and obscure miracles, or miracles that could easily be attribute to natural causes. In short, we get nothing because is there IS nothing to the
bible stories. They're all fiction.

edit on 8/18/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Stop your cat walling.

Maybe people that are silly enough to believe in God are silly enough to believe in this stuff. You don't want to say that god is building a monkey
flying machine or sitting around with a tablet marking on to save all the believers that is some nuts. Do you believe in the electric chair that was a
horrible way to go back in the early part of the life of well don't know that God does not condone all of that.
Now Iran has signed an agreement to stop production of nuclear weapons. A new world

God is not doing that. Seriously umm this world is caving in. No liberty is anywhere by the white house that is not anymore white.
Do you believe in the electric chair that was a horrible way to go back in the early part of the life of well don't know that God does not condone
all of that.

Unfortunately, religious people AND non religious people like the folks here mocking the NT don’t understand that scripture is mostly
allegorical.

Even most of the believers in scripture don’t understand that.
That’s how religion has come to be mocked over the years, because the religious folks themselves have distorted it and made themselves open to
mockery like this thread. They take the allegory as literal and that is their downfall.

But the fact is that the disbelievers are missing the wisdom of the allegorical and mythological pearls in scripture and as well as the average
believer who has been deceived by the clerical tyrants that run and control religion.

The scriptures you mock are laden with divine wisdom and science only the few wise amongst the believers can see.

I am not sure exactly if the bible was written by actual followers of the Jesus written about but it at least was based on his teachings, or guidance
based on choosing good over evil, giving over taking. Slowly over time this was manipulated.

People accepted the teachings because it was right to them and to their advantage, originally it showed a better way to live, once that was
established it showed how to keep control and to progress all whilst living quite morally high standard of life.
Since the age of enlightenment in the west and education worldwide people have begun to realise that religious stories were not quite true but dressed
up to get the meaning across and to retain control.

I wonder if the church teachings have frozen compared to the past, since enlightenment and globalisation it would be much more difficult to change the
teachings?

Churches remained but were less prominent than in the time of the kings pre enlightenment, local leaders still continued to go to church because they
believed in the original teachings and elite leaders held to church as all the changes through the years leading up to enlightenment ensured a
manageable people.

As globalisation becomes more of a reality to be taken or given people start to re-align their goals, people start to realise that the original
teachings are still valid, understanding that there was a reason we held onto them for so long in spite of manipulation, changes and deceit.
Leaders try to take a moral high ground to lead us into full globalisation but do it for the misguided reasons.

So we have a church teaching 1700 ish propaganda based on teachings the people want to live their lives according to. We have governments telling us
that we are on the right path but the people look back to the original teachings and look for new guidance.

The teachings accepted by the people all point to us following a new good path, not accepting an advantage over our neighbour at this time when we can
have it but passing our knowledge and teachings on putting humanity onto a good path. Not condemning but giving.

It was done before, at the time of Jesus when the romans were conquering the known world, the people didn't accept their guidance and chose Gods good
moral path. Its essence has been held on to through many challenges and temptations. What will be the choice this time?

Do we as a people just need to listen to what we have been holding onto and accept Jesus teachings without manipulation to ensure a golden age or will
we be tricked into modern conflicts and egoistical paths . Do we sacrifice our future for our present just because we wont be around or are scared to
lose our luxuries.

What is the message people have held onto for so long? I feel its something about living good but also being able to enjoy life. We need to pass this
message on not the one that says take what you can.

If we can think of ways to spread the message about the good path we should choose, why and better still live it then possibly we have a chance.

Ask leaders to stop following the twisted paths and get onto the good one again.

New Testament Fairy Tales? So, i guess the principles didn't ring true? You must not have given a considerable amount of STUDY time. If you did,
you'd see, A LOT of what was taught, applies today! Now, in those days, Jesus called it Seed time and Harvest. And, in today's terminology, people
call that "Karma". There are NO fairy tales, just spiritual principles.

Let me also say this, where would society be without a set of guidelines? The more we get away from those guidelines, the worse things are getting.
Can't ANYONE see that?

The ONLY "fairy tales" in our world, is that which are spoken, by our "leaders".

Where would we be without Christian moral laws? Who knows.
The warning are clear to see in the stories even if flying snakes or what not where involved, but other things like Gods view, miracles and the like
are a little off I believe. And its the shear volume of metaphors, flying angels, gods direct influence and the like that puts you off. And the fact
that it is preached as gospel by many.

I feel the forefathers of these religions made a choice, they knew they had to convince people to live fulfilling giving life's rather than the
barbaric selfish path they were on.
They decided to teach people that good was better than riches. I feel we have a very similar choice again!

It isn't science that debunks god - religion does it on its own. We don't need solid facts to disprove religious beliefs. All we have to do is look
at all the illogical claims to know that the biblical gods aren't real.

1. There were thousands of messiahs worshiped before Jesus was born, but out of all those Jesus is the REAL one?

DeadSeraph
Sai Baba does not have 1300 years (AT LEAST) of prophecy preceding him. Jesus did.

Now I can see your argument already...

"what if Sai Baba DID? Would you convert to Sai Babaism?"

What, pray tell, does any of this have to do with the nature of the universe, it's origins, and whether or not there was a creator? It doesn't.
Emotional appeals to a very easily manipulated audience. This is precisely the tactic used by every single atheist I've ever heard.

"God can't exist because religion and people are flawed".

And you call us primitive thinkers?

Dude. Desperately and honestly. Can’t Christians be nice to each other without the wall hang up of pictures of Jesus and the bottle of orange juice
and tales of their experiences serving free meals for the out in the woods tales that dead men tell?

You like everyone else is stuck on this Internet computer false world and you can see that the world is falling a part and how many more years do you
think are we going to have? Should I put up some pictures of underwear models from Sears to degrade the conversation.

My words are flat on this screen, so I may come across as sarcastic, but believe me, I'm not being sarcastic at all. When you say god is a present
help, where? Is he helping in the middle east with all the beheadings and religious intolerance and spousal abuse, child abuse, rape, murder - I'm
talking about the very cradle of the three monotheistic religions. If I were this god I'd sink the whole region and be done with them.

Where is this helpful god you speak of?

Yahweh it was you right, you told adam like you fool he was not an internet hock a comment a day champ. I was your god who made you, what kind of
devil did this you listened to the wrong guy and now look. That is a sign.

God did not inflict the gulf war syndrome on thousands of veterans so we are saying here that there is no helpful God? I am sure as with any of the
modern wars or conflicts or kinetic military action but why were we there?
Other religions murder and kill just as much as the Christians who really are not Christians and they are in big denial.

Bury the hatchet Deadseraph you and Jigger don’t think that Christianity deserves the same respect as others. You’re in plenty of company
Deadseraph.

Don’t push the light out Jigger. Well God is saying to you and all you wannabee debunkers. Don’t worry Jigger God has a special seat for you to be
a proof reader in a weekly magazine that God has for losers who reject him.

Research the term Midrash... and no. it isn't what it sounds like. It will help you to understand how some of these "stories" came to be. They
mostly stem from older more difficult to understand (to most people) translations and interpretations of original Holy Books.

Wow, I've been gone about or over a year, and this is what is still at the top of my ATS subscribed threads?

Look, let's make this simple for everyone:

Telling an outsider to read the Bible is quite useless because this is the type of thing that happens, when they're bitter. (Bitter is as bitter
does. Someone who doesn't care about the Bible at all, doesn't post a damn thing about it at all. Seriously.)

Using a book on people that they insist that they're not bound by does little for them, especially when they're bitter. (Bitter is as bitter does.
Someone who doesn't care about the Bible at all, doesn't defend their bitter stance, at all. Seriously.)

There's a reason Christians are called to NOT judge outsiders. 1. Outsiders reject the rules you play by. 2. Outsiders are not bound by the rules
you play by.

After all, it's not like the OP wants to change his mind. It's not like the OP wants to have a calm discussion about things that he either doesn't
understand or that he does, yet still disagrees with. He just wants to sit here and vent. So let him! Nothing we're going to state is going to
change that. He's entitled to it!

Sometimes I think we forget that we're called to be at peace with all men. Even those who don't want our peace.

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