Symthic Forum was shut down on January 11th, 2019. You're viewing an archive of this page from 2019-01-08 at 22:27. Thank you all for your support! Please get in touch via the Curse help desk if you need any support using this archive.

Quoted

Exactly that. Numbers, algorithms, and "perfect" systems are worthless if a game doesn't feel right. And feeling right usually has a heavy emphasis on being intuitive, something BF1 (and some of its designers) aren't especially good with.

BF1's only major failing (and it's a big one) is aggressively range-locking weapons.

A bigger issue, however, is simply that it is getting stale. From a big-picture perspective BF has barely changed since inception. The aesthethics change, and some nuanced mechanics (gunplay, vehicle balance, class abilities) change, but the core gameplay is basically the same thing it was 16 years ago. There just isn't much to talk about once you see the numbers in BF1.

BF got a huge shot in the arm with frostbite, but we're now 3 games deep with frostbite and the shine is wearing off. But PC players are still peaking at 20K, so people need to stop pretending BF1 was a bad game that failed because they didn't like it. It seriously stretches credibility doing that.

Would you say that a lot of popular games are getting stale as well? CSGO originates from CS, DOTA2 and LoL is hugely similar to dota, OW has a lot of similarities with TF2, which itself can be traced back to TFC. The only genre that has relatively more innovative game design is BR.

Definitely, it is strange how many of the Bf youtubers are not more interested in game design or even just what applies to Battlefield. This game series is a huge part of their life, but they don't seem that interested. Like, how are they not reading symthic? (atleast previously)

On topic, all the glint changes are great!

Same reason politicians are not all that interested in deeply learning about the topics they are legislating: it's not actually necessary when pandering to the masses. So why bother?

They want money/prestige/power, those are the huge parts of their life. BF Youtube videos are just a vehicle for that. Better to drive a Ferrari to work than a rusty old Lada right?

As an example: calling BF casual became popular and fashionable so that's basically all they do. I still have no idea what that even means in the context, or what a non-casual BF title looks like. Nobody bothered to sit down and really define these things, they just resorted to memes.

Yes, the community is very much meme-driven. Just look at all the meme guns and the really terrible "quit/teamswitch if you are losing" meme.

I imagine in their heads, accessibility and low barriers to entry = casual.

Therefore a game that has a high barrier to entry is good. Just like sniping in previous Battlefields. A kool kids' klub if you will.

My greatest fear will be a switch from rational designs to meme-driven design.

Symthic Game Science might just die out and be replaced with Le Reddit Memes.

Your perspective is not right here. It is true that "casual" disparagement has no meaning and is really only used by players who have no understanding of the game, aka the real casuals. There is nothing wrong with having a game with a low entry-barrier but that does not mean every weapon has to be easy to use. I can play Overwatch and have a great time with heroes that does not require good aim, but those heroes still have a high skill-gap so I would still seriously underperform. Furthermore heroes that do require aim are not made any easier and does not feel cheap to fight against. A player would still need to be an aiming god in order to snipe in that game but nobody complains that the game is too hard. There are plenty of guns and vehicles in this game that are too rewarding for too little skill, that includes the SMG08, the heavy bomber, and even the sweetspot snipers that you love so much. What is worse about sweetspot snipers is that not only can players with poor aim perform well, the high-skill gap still exists and the best snipers can kill so fast that even heavy-bombers have a hard time competing. The BAs are by all means unbalanced. A simple ROF and muzzle velocity buff, BF4-sized headshot hitbox, and a variation of TTK1.0 could have made snipers viable. Heck, good snipers can consistently top the scoreboard with the M95, which has just been completely invalidated by the Ross Marksman. Ideally the game should not be punishing for bad players, but it should not be rewarding without an equal amount of skill. The sweetspot mechanic should not exist. Guns like the SM08 should exist. Cheap vehicles like the heavy-bomber should not exist. High-skill weapons like the 8.35 and the 1906 should not be so unrewarding. Players with bad aim should be given more guns like the Huot and Perino that is not hard to use but not cheap to play against. In addition the game should invest in more non-gunplay skills like teamwork and add gadgets that promote smart-plays instead of just adding another instant-detonating grenade launcher. There are so many ways to make a game fun for casual players but BF1 just does this in a way that makes the game frustrating to play for everyone else.

Velocities are already upped to where they are IRL and increasing them any further would be removing the real challenge of sniping which is predicting the enemy's future location. With super high velocities, we approach hitscan snipers that really turn the weapon into a point and click adventure.

With the sweetspot, we can retain the elements of target interdiction, break the Hollywood myth of sniping, and make Sniper Rifles actually viable all at the same time. It is a win on all fronts.

Players should not be ineffective as a Scout up until they reach Stodeh-tier of aim where they suddenly flip into overwhelmingly powerful.

The Heavy Bomber's high bodycount is simply a product of what it is designed to wreck: big zergs. To date we have seen very few weapons capable of destruction on the scale of the Heavy Bomber. The only other contender is the Infiltrator.

If 26 players gather in one area, it should not be unusual for it to kill them all in one go given its payload.

If players think it is so overwhelming, that is only because they are too used to zerging. It's like when flyboys cried about the BF4 MAA.

Sure you can argue that flying at super high altitude and clicking on a flag icon takes very little skill, but the whole point of it is to wreck people who decide that putting their entire team on one point was smart. At the same time, the Strategic Heavy Bomber has very few escape options compared to its counterparts. It doesn't have a quick repair option and is still slow as hell.

The only counter to a zerg is another zerg or the liberal use of AoE weaponry.

The SMG 08 is managed with range-based balance. Given the need to fight close up often, of course it would shine.

There are still other traits that make other weapons competitive such as hipfire and ADS time.

I'm not saying that any of the above are imbalanced other than the BA, which is only broke under the hands of the best snipers. Guns like the SMG08 derives all its skill from distance-based positioning, which is not hard to do at all and can hardly be called a skill. The heavy bomber relies more on the enemy's poor play than on its on skillset to acquire a large number of kills. A vehicle or weapon should never be used at their max potential just because the right conditions are met. There has to be some amount of skill and effort from the player itself. Because of this there is no skill-gap with the heavy bomber or the SMG08 and every bad player can frag out on a similar level to the best aimers in the games.

As for BA balancing, by faster velocity I meant in comparison to BF4 (my fault for miscommunication), so any realistic muzzle velocity will do. It isn't unfair to expect players to be good aiming in order to be effective with snipers. You don't have to be as good as Stodeh - he is way better than the level of skill needed to perform decently with the M95 marksman. Not everyone has to be good at sniping. The problem is that Dice gave only Scouts BAs and Scouts have nothing but BAs. Each class has to contribute something unique to the team and locking a single class with a punishing weapon is unfair. The game would be much better if every class gets access to some type of BA, while the Medic class gets access to some LMGs and the Scout class gets access to some SLRs. I wouldn't mind an all-class weapon system like we had in BF4 as long as the all class weapons are Sniper/DMR type high TTK high skill-gap weapons.

Even if Scout only has access to BAs, at least they are viable weapons this time around.

The reward for good aim with a sniper rifle is the ability to delete anyone from pretty much any range. But if your aim isn't up to that level, you can make up for it with good positioning.

Positioning is one of the most key factors that determine success in any game. In fact, it is a lot more important than aim. If you are not in a position to land damage, it doesn't matter how good your aim is. Your damage isn't going to reach anything. You shouldn't dismiss it.

Even if Scout only has access to BAs, at least they are viable weapons this time around.

The reward for good aim with a sniper rifle is the ability to delete anyone from pretty much any range. But if your aim isn't up to that level, you can make up for it with good positioning.

Positioning is one of the most key factors that determine success in any game. In fact, it is a lot more important than aim. If you are not in a position to land damage, it doesn't matter how good your aim is. Your damage isn't going to reach anything. You shouldn't dismiss it.

Of course. I'd say positioning is much more important than aim in pretty much any Battlefield games. Good positioning allows you got shoot at more people, minimizes your exposure, allows you to evade more easily, or straight up puts you in the enemy's blindspot. Positioning is already a very rewarding skill no matter the gun and no matter the game. It does not need to be further buffed by a sweetspot. Furthermore positioning by distance is hardly a skill. Any player can stay within X distance from the enemy as there as a noticeable frontline exist. If a frontline does not exist then the game is just random and chaotic, in which case positioning by distance isn't even reliable enough to be a viable skill.

Personally I find BF4 and BF3's BA are at a good place if spread based suppression do not apply to them. Not too quick fire rate, muzzle velocity that requires you to lead, and decent head size. Also I do not see the fact that you need aiming skills to become effective at BAs a problem, given that you can 1HK anyone with a headshot. It applies to all 1HK weapons, because you cannot balance them with TTK.