i suppose i am coming from a different perspective than others as the camp i particpate in has been around 19 years with many different leaders and crews and isnt a 'theme camp' really.

but.. the way i see this whole 'but the people ARE the camp' thing is that... if yer project kicks ass enough ..the people arent the camp...they are just the current stewards.

i know for lots of camps it is just a group of close friends who decide to make a theme camp, thats great! for them their friends are their camp and the camp is their friends..

but! i have to say that many times theres surely times when just having yer friends/loved ones involved because they are your friends/loved ones ends up in a situation we see in many many camps at burning man........ the same people doing the work while other people slack off... that might be acceptable for some groups.... but perhaps not this year.

i 100% am all fine and good with the implication that your friends/loved ones can be replaced by hard workers with tickets and your camp can still kick ass.

maybe we are learning what a theme camp means ? maybe we are finding out that it means working yer butt off to get a job done... and not just having fun with yer friends while getting the job done...... as we saw this year the LLC is deciding what camps really are above the bar in terms of partcipation, giving back... 10 principals..etc.... sure! you can do that with your friends, but.. perhaps it isnt required.

maybe you wont want to do your camp without your friends there, maybe a friend/loved one has access to infrastructure you wont trust someone else with.... whatever it may be.. it certainly doesnt have to mean the end of the camp. perhaps this year we are gonna have to learn that maybe some groups are being 'selfish' with their projects!! perhaps this year... we are learning that some people need to learn to 'gift' their camp/project to those who are willing to take the project on, even if their friends/loved ones dont show up...

Trishntek wrote:Historically, about half our camp members were not as kinky-minded as the other half.

Whatever the attribute, you can draw a line down the middle of it. (Well, maybe not "left-handed" or "unique".)

I understand where TnT's coming from- when your camp is solidly based around a theme (or activity) it can make a difference how the camp feels when not everyone is interested in it. It would be like having half of Apok not being interested in the Russian theme, half of Sacred Spaces not being spiritual, or half of Fandango clean & sober. While it would be fine having those people as members, it would change the atmosphere of the camp.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Wahoo, our camp got accepted and got its allocation of tickets. We actually got more tix than we needed, so the extras will go into STEP. And, of course, hours after paying for the tickets using our camp codes, two different people mentioned that they have one or more spare tickets and would I like to buy one of them?

Possibly a positive sign for the overall supply. As we get into summer, some portion of the people planning on going will cancel plans and those tickets will become available. I've maintained confidence that things would work out for us, and now they have. I'm feeling similarly confident that they're going to work out for most people who are persistent about trying to get tickets. It certainly helps to be connected to a lot of Burners, which can translate, in practice, to a system that implicitly, if not explicitly, favors veterans, who are more likely to have more connections to other burners.

Trishntek wrote:Historically, about half our camp members were not as kinky-minded as the other half.

Whatever the attribute, you can draw a line down the middle of it. (Well, maybe not "left-handed" or "unique".)

I understand where TnT's coming from- when your camp is solidly based around a theme (or activity) it can make a difference how the camp feels when not everyone is interested in it. It would be like having half of Apok not being interested in the Russian theme, half of Sacred Spaces not being spiritual, or half of Fandango clean & sober. While it would be fine having those people as members, it would change the atmosphere of the camp.

My remark was more about the grammatical construction than about anything else.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Trishntek wrote:If the purchase codes are not used by March 30th, the tickets automatically become available in STEP. Why should anyone purchase un needed tickets just to go through the hassle of selling them?

i know nothing of any of the distributed ticket program.. but!!

the only reason i can see buying unneeded tickets would be to supply them to people who arent in STEP.. in the burner to burner face to face or eplaya market

Trishntek wrote:If the purchase codes are not used by March 30th, the tickets automatically become available in STEP. Why should anyone purchase un needed tickets just to go through the hassle of selling them?

i know nothing of any of the distributed ticket program.. but!!

the only reason i can see buying unneeded tickets would be to supply them to people who arent in STEP.. in the burner to burner face to face or eplaya market

My point exactly. Something like that should never be expected. It is purely out of the kindness of their heart, and I for one would want to make damn good and sure the recipient was not seeking something of questionable purpose.

Unneeded tickets do not need to be purchased and then fed back into STEP. The codes will expire on 3/30 at noon, with the unused tickets feeding into the program - no need to tie up funds or be out the $7 service charge.

Trishntek wrote:If the purchase codes are not used by March 30th, the tickets automatically become available in STEP. Why should anyone purchase un needed tickets just to go through the hassle of selling them?

A fair point and you guys are correct it seems - I had misunderstood how the ticket allocations worked.

(Incidentally, to the person inquiring - we had leftover tickets because some of our members had gotten tickets from friends in the meantime.)

moonrise wrote:Cheer up illy, I heard if you can swing it the weeks before and after the burn are the best. I've stayed the week after, so far.

Thanks Moonrise!We'll pull it off one way or another!

Why don't ya stick your head in that hole and find out? ~pieholePlan for the worst, expect the best. Make the most out of it under any conditions. If you cannot do that you will never enjoy yourself. ~CrispyDave

I've also seen good things happening with my camp. A number of people found tickets via friends, and we were allocated some via placement, and it looks like pretty much everyone is covered now, including me (yay!). I'm near the front of the STEP line and I'll be giving up my spot because I won't need it.

This is the third year I've been with this camp and we have our shit together WAY more this year than in previous years. The ticket scramble has forced us to get organized very early in terms of camp roster, because we needed to know who was in before we could figure out how to allocate tickets, and we now have a nearly final roster of camp members, whereas previously this wouldn't be settled until late summer. Because it's still so early in the year, all the people we've been adding to our ranks are very excited and very committed; those who are still unsure at this stage are not going to get a spot. The leadership has been chattering non stop - something that again does not usually get rolling until early summer. It has been a really stressful two months, but I think we are going to have a great year. Maybe even an incredible year.

lemur wrote:i suppose i am coming from a different perspective than others as the camp i particpate in has been around 19 years with many different leaders and crews and isnt a 'theme camp' really.

but.. the way i see this whole 'but the people ARE the camp' thing is that... if yer project kicks ass enough ..the people arent the camp...they are just the current stewards.

I kinda agree. However, my camp has been around for 13 years, we've got a close to perfect LNT record, we've got a container, and we kinda specialize in helping noobs participate - and we didn't get tickets.

I heard that the things I mentioned were what they were basing the judging on.

So, don't stress too much. I'm guessing they were just giving out tickets to large sound camps and long time Esplanade camps. That means a fair amount of non-dance/non-deathguild camps are going to not have tickets. Some of us (like my camp) are just going to press forward believing we'll somehow get tickets. Others will fold, and some of those camp members will sell their tickets. Add that in to the people who would be selling tickets anyway in late summer, and I think we'll all be able to go.

ZaphodBurner wrote:The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

Having a container or length of time on the playa were not factors in whether a camp would receive ticket allocations. LNT was definitely a factor, however just being green on the map was not in itself an assurance that you'd get tix. Interactivity, acculturation, and how the camp embraces the ten principles were the major points. It's also possible that the application itself didn't do an effective job of communicating what the camp does or offers that may meet the criteria the placement team was looking for. The bottom line, though, was that there were not enough tickets to go around. They did help more than just sound camps and Esplanade institutions, but placement could not help all camps and had to make some tough decisions.

Do continue to press on, though. In any given year, people buy tickets and then either change their minds or life throws them a curve ball and they decide not to go. This year there could end up being even more of that - some of the people who saw the video (or were wowed by other factors) may start to realize how much work is involved in getting there and may get cold feet. Hopefully you'll be able to get things sorted sooner rather than later.

[i]I'm guessing they were just giving out tickets to large sound camps and long time Esplanade camps.[/i]

Counterexample is my camp, 30-person, runs burlesque performances and workshops, 4 years running now, not on Esplanade -- we were given tickets. For which we are incredibly thankful, naturally. It is frustrating with decisions being made in the dark like this and I sympathize with anyone who was left out.

If this process is going to be repeated in future years -- a distinct possibility -- I wonder if it will evolve. I wouldn't mind some kind of standardized scoring rubric like you often see in competitive grant applications. It would still be based on subjective judgments, of course, but if camps were given numerical ratings out of 10 in the criteria categories, and told that tickets were only available for the top X% of camps and you were in position Y, then it would be easier to accept these decisions, and make an effort to improve for the next year.

We are not a big sound or esplanade camp, and are only two years old (2012 will be 3), and we got a few tickets, enough to fill out the set-up crew. Although apparently, placement has offered us esplanade (!), although I don't think we want to go that route. Especially since Spanky's had such an issue a few years back with their 'glory hole'.

I think amount of interactivity was a factor as well, with one party in the week not being enough (not saying this is why A Jester's camp didn't get tix-not being on placement, or knowing your camp it's all speculative).

I do know camp tickets were only to get enough core people there, not to get everyone there. It's only March, remember! Tickets are trickling into STEP, and I've already seen where people with tix realize this isn't their year to go, or can't go.

trilobyte wrote:Having a container or length of time on the playa were not factors in whether a camp would receive ticket allocations. <snip> It's also possible that the application itself didn't do an effective job of communicating what the camp does or offers that may meet the criteria the placement team was looking for. The bottom line, though, was that there were not enough tickets to go around. They did help more than just sound camps and Esplanade institutions, but placement could not help all camps and had to make some tough decisions.

Do continue to press on, though <snip>

I thought I heard a direct message that a container was a factor (basically, camps that have seriously committed to the event, to the point of keeping their toys at someone else's house are more likely to get tickets.)

I'm sure the application wasn't perfect, I wrote it and I am one of those humans. I also didn't get the application in within the first few days, so the tickets might have been gone by the time ours was reviewed.

We'll definitely press on. Worse case scenario, our camp is massively understaffed this year. I'll risk that. Heck, it could even be fun. We train people who are interested in how to do interviews, so maybe we'll end up with a whole new flock of volunteers and minions.

percussivepaul wrote:I'm guessing they were just giving out tickets to large sound camps and long time Esplanade camps.

Counterexample is my camp, 30-person, runs burlesque performances and workshops, 4 years running now, not on Esplanade -- we were given tickets. For which we are incredibly thankful, naturally. It is frustrating with decisions being made in the dark like this and I sympathize with anyone who was left out.

As someone who was left out, I'm kinda glad that the process was in the dark. If they said, "Sorry, you're not interactive enough." it would have caused an uproar in my camp. (Basically, all we do is interact. People would have been grabbing pitchforks.) If they said, "You don't have enough night time events." and then we found out that another camp with less night time events got tickets...

Well, you can see where I'm going with this. As it stands, I personally believe that they were understaffed, overstressed, and doing the best job they could. Maybe they never intended for camps like mine to get tickets, maybe we would have if we filled out our application earlier or better, maybe they put our application on top of the "FUCK YEAH" pile and someone spilled coffee on it and they couldn't figure out who we were.

This way we don't feel as rejected. It's kinda like if you ask that cute person at work out on a date, if they just say "thank you for asking but no thanks, I'm already full of all the dates I can take" it's not too bad. If they say, "I would have said yes, but your nose is too big." and then you see them on a date with a dude with a bigger nose than yours, you might want to question their decision.

I really need to end this metaphor quickly.

The bottom line is we'll find tickets elsewhere.

ZaphodBurner wrote:The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

Just to update people on our progress with Placement and the Org: The Placement team has been responsive, considerate and awesome.

One of our lottery-winners ordered two tickets, but only got one--they're core members but the Org hasn't responded to their e-mail or phone calls yet. They have a $409 charge on their credit card and have received NO OTHER acknowledgment that they won the lottery or received a ticket. This is not a Placement issue but unfortunately they're the only ones who respond.

I believe 100% that the Placement crew have done the very best they can with the circumstances presented to them. I know from talking with our placer that they were totally slammed by this issue. To have to make these decisions and phone calls...I don't envy these people's position for a second. FWIW, the camps I know who got tickets are grateful and certainly not taking any of this for granted.

"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

Agreed, Jester - they're good people with a massive task and a tight deadline (not to mention their own day jobs, etc). And as if making some of the tough decisions they have to make as part of the regular placement process wasn't enough, they now had to go through this difficult process. And bottom line, they didn't have enough tickets to be able to help everyone that wanted and needed them.

@ZaphodBurner - check your PM's, I'd like to try and see if we can get those campmates of yours sorted out.

I believe 100% that the Placement crew have done the very best they can with the circumstances presented to them. I know from talking with our placer that they were totally slammed by this issue. To have to make these decisions and phone calls...I don't envy these people's position for a second. FWIW, the camps I know who got tickets are grateful and certainly not taking any of this for granted.

I wholeheartedly agree. Placers are volunteers with normal jobs. The whole process is a bit like herding cats in a normal year. Thanks to all the volunteers that make Burning Man happen - especially placers !!

A Jester wrote:This way we don't feel as rejected. It's kinda like if you ask that cute person at work out on a date, if they just say "thank you for asking but no thanks, I'm already full of all the dates I can take" it's not too bad. If they say, "I would have said yes, but your nose is too big." and then you see them on a date with a dude with a bigger nose than yours, you might want to question their decision.

I think of the placement and ticket allocation like the Honorarium grants: it's hard to objectively measure and compare the value of the different proposals, and ultimately the major criterion is "if we like it." Sometimes it's not the big nose, it's that she just doesn't like that nose. It's not personal; it's just personal preference. At least you tried and learned the result.

The bottom line is we'll find tickets elsewhere.

Glad you're sticking with it. This year's ticket fiasco brings out the best and worst in people.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Stumbled across this old thread, and if anyone cares about the update: we had at least 8 campers with no tickets who steadfastly refused to believe they wouldn't be going. One by one they all got tickets (of course).

I'm pretty stoked that they were bold and brave enough to take the time off work, invest in their new projects for this yet, pay camp dues, etc. - all without having tickets in hand.

ZaphodBurner wrote:The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.