Second paragraph of Tallulah's is exactly what you saw cafe and I doing in the INFJ Common Issues thread. We felt like EW was ignoring the social constructs. As a result, we felt less need to be protective of her feelings, as the message obviously wasn't getting through. This is interesting to consider in regards to Te doing the same when the shoe's on the other foot.

^ no it's not quite the same though ... Te will ignore but Fe will shun, it's different somehow. You risk more battling with an Fe user. You risk being shut out of their lives. It feels more dangerous.

"Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
― Eleanor Roosevelt

"When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad."
― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

My Oprah example was an example of Fe gone awry. :-D As was the example of my friend trying to subtly manipulate me into thinking her idea was what I wanted.

And great examples too.

Originally Posted by Tallulah

I think Fe maybe makes me feel safe overall, partly because as an INTP, I didn't understand all the feeling subtleties when I was a kid and teen (and probably still don't now), so having pure feeling directed at me out of nowhere, or having a lot of dissenting voices with no direction kind of feels like chaos, and makes my Ti feel crowded or something. I think Fe really does sort of pave the way for Ti to do its thing. It's like drama-control. Or that's how it feels to me.

That is wonderful. Drama-control. I get that.

It is refreshing to hear it spoken of thusly too.

"Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
― Eleanor Roosevelt

"When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad."
― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

^ no it's not quite the same though ... Te will ignore but Fe will shun, it's different somehow. You risk more battling with an Fe user. You risk being shut out of their lives. It feels more dangerous.

I don't identify with the whole INFJ doorslamming thing myself. I've had arguments and some people have let me down to the point where I think I probably won't talk to them again - and then weeks, months (in a couple of cases, years) later we get along. Or at least, get along enough to not shut each other out entirely. Sometimes I feel like calling them up and being the one to reach out, y'know?

I don't make friends easily though. I don't even have a best friend. So maybe in some light you could say I'm premeditatively doorslamming quite a bit

^ no it's not quite the same though ... Te will ignore but Fe will shun, it's different somehow. You risk more battling with an Fe user. You risk being shut out of their lives. It feels more dangerous.

Are you sure?

Merriam Webster online defines

Shun: To avoid deliberately and especially habitually

Ignore: To refuse to take notice of , To reject

I fail to see any real difference..

Before the 12th century a shunner meant someone who avoided the truth by trickery.

So maybe your definition is residual of that?

But that concept is very outdated.. in modern terms it means to ignore or not deal with

First of all, great thread! Too many solid, insightful posts to call them all out.

Originally Posted by fidelia

Second paragraph is exactly what you saw cafe and I doing in the INFJ Common Issues thread. We felt like EW was ignoring the social constructs. As a result, we felt less need to be protective of her feelings, as the message obviously wasn't getting through. This is interesting to consider in regards to Te doing the same when the shoe's on the other foot.

So do you feel like the dynamic would be "Fi feels like individual values aren't being honored, so lets loose with harsh Te?" or "Te gets challenged and lets loose with offended Fi?"

My only comment to add more generally is that Fi is just as obsessed with precision as Ti is, just in a different realm. So, just as Ti gets offended with Te adjustments/simplifications for "ease of implementation" or "to match company processes," so Fi gets offended with having to misrepresenting itself to be palatable to/consumable for/moving to the group. Now, what may be needed is likely not actual misrepresentation, but it can sure feel that way when you see the essential truth being lost in translation.

(1.) do you take a moment to self-check, with nearly every conscious action that you take, "is this behaviour in line with how I want to live out my values?"

Yes. With nearly every conscious action I take.

As an example of that phenomenon on this very forum, I sometimes hold back from posting, or I edit my posts when they're out of character.

Take aggressiveness. Even when people deserve some backlash, it just feels awkward and "off" when I'm the one to provide it. In daily life, some people tend to give the impression that they can be punched squarely in the face without kid-gloves, and they freely and blindly flail around at other people. But then they go home crying when you actually let 'er rip

(Incidentally, these are the very people who need to be punched in the face; I just can't bring myself to do it.)

To extrapolate from there, I've got a vision of how I want to be, and any actions that I take that isn't aligned with that vision must be corrected or avoided in the future. This can be applied to almost every area of my life, not necessarily concerned with "morality."

Now, this tendency is to a fault. I'm absolutely perfectionistic with respect to my actions and hate it when I can't live up to my ideals.

edit ---- [long story that i have deleted cause it's kind of private. really appreciate your guys' help ]

is there something here i'm not seeing? :/

Originally Posted by KDude

I remember there was a homeless woman who used to hang out near my highschool, around the local Sonic. During lunch periods, kids would be sitting around, tossing quarters and dimes out on the pavement, and laughed as she stooped down picking the coins up. They did it for their own amusement. It pissed me off one day that I picked up the coins myself and got some of my own change and walked up to her, trying to treat her with respect. And guess what? She blew up! It was unnerving. I just kneeled down and dropped all of the coins in front of her, and walked away. I felt like an idiot in front of everyone. Sure, I'm butting in, but how am I wrong here? I look stupid to the person I'm helping, and I look stupid to the people who humiliate her. There's no logic to this.

Just to bring it back to Che again (not to compare myself, other than on a Fe level - I just want to put it in a wider sense). There was an interesting bout between him and other Latin representatives when he made his UN speech. Each country had a 10 minute rebuttal to respond to what he was saying about justice in Latin America, ridding themselves of American imperialism, etc.. and the Panamanian says something just like that homeless woman: "No Me Defiendas, Compadre." There's no logic in that either.

just a thought - sometimes, stuff like that seems condescending. someone bowing down from a place of privilege - playing a champion for the cause - may strike the recipient as the ultimate in condescension because you are making a show of it. if you were to go in private to the street and dump your change out on it later, i'm sure the woman would appreciate it; if a panamanian leader were speaking up, i'm sure the panamanian would be more enthused. but the way it stands, it sounds like, good intentions aside, you are publicly making yourself out to be a savior when you're not even 100% sure of what that woman - or panama - wants.

Originally Posted by Jennifer

I don't consider that Fe, Fi people do that just as much depending on overall type.

agree.

admittedly, EW, i'm a little frustrated with the tone being generated in this thread too, and not as a result of Fe-Fi interaction. i know you want Fe dom/aux to speak up more in the way you've asked - i'd be curious to read it too, certainly - but forms like that... i dunno. i'm turned off by it. something about the thread feels presumptuous.

Originally Posted by Usehername

Top-notch ENFJ prof once said to me that she was so good at giving people what they wanted in graduate school, that towards the end when she was beginning to form her career without answering to others she struggled with what she wanted to do. It took her a while to find her research interests because she wasn't very good at finding what lit her fire on her own terms absent an outside source.

it's an E problem in general, i think, not just Je. harder to know what your insides want when you're primarily motivated by external stuff.

Originally Posted by PeaceBaby

No, you can argue with a Te user and you don't generally risk being shut out of their lives for disagreeing with them.

haha, yeah. love Fe doms though i do, i feel like i'm constantly walking on glass. what will i do wrong next?