Ok sorry if there is another post on this, but I just wanted to do a quick poll of wakeworlders. Are you for or against the building of the Mosque next to ground zero? Why or why not?

I am against it for the following reason.

IMO, it is a ploy to erect a mosque by what muslims believe to be a victory over the great Satan (America) to allow the building of this mosque, is a slap in the face to all Americans. Anyone who can't see through this charade is blind. The fact that we are even talking about it makes me sick.

We ... the US (and others) ... believe far and above more religiously about the properness of religious freedom than all but perhaps 3 countries with large Muslim populations (uhmm ... India, Philippines and Indonesia ???).

I have no idea ... but ... how many Christian and like non-Muslim missions are there in Mecca?

In Saudi Arabia?

My views are somewhat colored by the concurrent thread over the definition of a ‘professional’ wake-boarder. So, the definition question here is:– what is ‘religion’ ... or .., what is a ‘religion,’ that qualifies for the protections of religious freedom in our pluralistic society (oh, or ok, under our Constitution)?

Many a religion rules in harsh and unbending terms that if you and I are not an adherent of its faith ... there is no salvation for your soul.

...

Islam has a statistically significant ‘radical’ population that takes this further. If you and I are not an adherent in good standing with (say) its Sunnism faith, then some layman who is popular enough to be ascribed the credentials of an ‘Imam’ can announce a ‘fatwah’ on you, or me, or our community of grandparents, parents, husbands, wives, children and so on.

And then an angry something rises up and creates an horrific act of terrorism.

Does it make a difference that there have been Muslims praying in that building for over a year now? Does it matter that there were many innocent Muslims killed at ground zero? Does it matter that there are many conservatives running on the platform of "getting big government out of private business"? We don't want government in the health care business or the auto manufacturing business, but I guess now we want them in the private real estate business and rewriting zoning laws. How far is "too close to ground zero". 10 miles, 100 miles, 1000 miles? What stops other communities from preventing other mosques from being built in Ohio or Kansas or Arizona on the grounds that it is "too close to ground zero" or the bowling alley or Bubba's garage, thus urinating on the "religious freedom idea" on which this country was truly built.

And last time I checked, the US and Saudi Arabia were nowhere near similar. And for future reference and to help with the credibility of your argument, Mecca is in Saudi Arabia.

Indeed, as none other than Rupert Murdoch's New York Post reported last May, the Kingdom Foundation, al-Waleed's personal charity, has donated a total of $305,000 to Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow, a leadership and networking project sponsored jointly by two of Rauf's organizations, the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative. Al-Waleed owns a 7 percent, $2.3 billion stake in News Corporation. Likewise, News Corporation owns a 9 percent, $70 million stake — purchased in February — in Rotana, Al-Waleed's Saudi media conglomerate. Put another way: Rupert Murdoch and Fox News are in business, to the tune of billions of dollars, with one of the "Terror Mosque Imam's" principal patrons.

Just to be clear, this isn't just a mosque with some huge dome or something. I assume most know this.

"The Islamic center's leaders say the $100 million facility calls for a community center including a mosque, performing arts center, gym, swimming pool and other public spaces."

One thing I'm not clear on is if this community center and the gym, etc. is mostly geared towards Muslims or if it's open to everyone with the general public actually being expected to use the center. As for the Mosque part, I understand there already is a Mosque around there. It's just that it's some lousy low-profile basement type mosque.

Everything the Muslims do is calculated and insidious. Anybody speaking up is accused of scare mongering, or in Europe, face the very real possibility of being charged with a hate crime. I am in the UK at the moment and I cannot stress enough how bad Europe has become. There are places in the UK,France,Holland etc, where entire cities have become Muslim strongholds. They are even demanding they be allowed to practise Sharia law in some of these towns and cities.
This mosque is testing the waters in the US,pushing the boundaries so to speak.This is not about live and let live or about liberalism or legalism. This is about taking a stand and protecting America. Any victory like this, they see as weakness on our part . And this mosque will be a huge victory for them. Huge.

And all I ever see is the champagne socialists rabbiting on on the BBC, giving away the country to people that would as soon cut their heads off as talk to them. Anybody that disagrees are contemtuously dismissed as racists.If they think these people are their friends they are insane.What is the matter with us??

My advice? take a stand before it's too late. I am not exaggerating when I say Europe has virtually reached the point of no return. This is not tolerance. It's madness.
There are millions of peace loving muslims just like us? Yeah? Well if they are just like us then they will surely understand how incredibly insensitive this is.

Big D. You are you talking to? I am not outraged. I'm just alarmed and amazed that we are so stupid. You mark my words this will be hailed as a HUGE victory in the arab world. And then they will start on the next project. Maybe push it a little further and then a little further..........
You think we are building bridges. We are building our gallows.

Is there any legitimate legal reason why it can't be built? Should we deny some people the right to do things that others are allowed? Should we start denying the right for Christian churches to be built if nearby Atheists are offended?

We take down the ten commandments that may have been at a courthouse lawn for decades because of outrage. It is legal unless the City of New York zones it different. Zoning gets changed all the time
Chris is right. I know a guy how worked in England for 6 months. Left a pretty open minded guy, came back telling a fearful tail about the muslims he saw there. Holding signs in broad daylight saying England is next and things like that. I think you need to read the history of what Muslims do. They like to put mosques at all there greatest conquests. Think this is much different?

It is fascinating how so many people constantly preach what they can do based upon our constitution and bill of rights. Yet at the same time want to deny others these same rights.

The same people that use the constitution to their benefit but yet ignore it when it doesn't fit their point of view.

I don't think they should build the mosque at that location if for no other reason as to avoid the type of ignorant hysteria that we are witnessing now. The so called "true Americans" that are outraged want to basically ignore the ideals that this nation was founded on because they don't think someone of the Islamic faith should be allowed to build a mosque to practice their faith. Some of the earliest Americans came to this country to be able to practice their religion freely and without persecution. And now we have a segment of society that is basically persecuting people based on their faith.

The imam is a naturalized citizen and as such is protected under the same constitutional rights as all of us. But some of us seem to want to ignore those rights because they don't like this guy or want to blame an entire religion for the acts of the radicals among them. The majority of those that would use this facility are Americans. They may have a middle eastern name and their ancestors may have come from countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, etc... and not Europe but that does not make them any less American and protected by the same rights that Americans with names like Smith, Johnson, McCain, etc...

Where do we draw the line? What criteria do we use when we basically decide to ignore the constitution? Who's next? Who decides? Glenn Beck and Fox news? Oh wait, the biggest shareholder of Fox new's parent company outside of the Murdoch family is a member of the Saudi Royal family. Where is the boycott of Fox news because a Muslim has a large stake in the company? Oh that doesn't matter. Lets just look the other way because Rush Limbaugh and company don't talk about that.

Lies and hate are destroying our country from within right now. Who cares what some Muslim in the middle east might think about this mosque being built. How can you make a comparison to what Saudi Arabia would allow to be built in their country. They won't let a christian church be built, so what? That just shows how ignorant and pathetic their society actually is. To try and compare us to them is insulting the United States of America. We are better than that. We are the greatest nation that has ever existed because of our freedoms and tolerance.

How does anyone justify denying another American the right to enjoy the same rights as the rest of us?

You all need to read the constitution and think about what it means. It isn't just for you.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Paul...How are those liberal talking points? I am going to assume you are a conservative. Isn't it conservatives that want government out of healthcare (not counting Medicare/Medicaid)? Isn't it conservatives that wanted the government not to aid GM or the banks? Is it not the conservative mantra "less big government"?

So why do you want the government to step in and declare what is and is not politically correct when it comes to zoning issues? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

I, for one, am much more afraid of things other than the "Muslim boogieman".

"You mark my words this will be hailed as a HUGE victory in the arab world."

Maybe so, but it is the people protesting the center this that have made this an issue. I say again, THERE HAVE BEEN MUSLIMS PRAYING INSIDE THE BUILDING, THAT IS THE SITE FOR THE COMMUNITY CENTER, FOR OVER A YEAR NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paul...How are those liberal talking points? I am going to assume you are a conservative. Isn't it conservatives that want government out of healthcare (not counting Medicare/Medicaid)? Isn't it conservatives that wanted the government not to aid GM or the banks? Is it not the conservative mantra "less big government"?

So why do you want the government to step in and declare what is and is not politically correct when it comes to zoning issues? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

I, for one, am much more afraid of things other than the "Muslim boogieman".

"You mark my words this will be hailed as a HUGE victory in the arab world."

Maybe so, but it is the people protesting the center this that have made this an issue. I say again, THERE HAVE BEEN MUSLIMS PRAYING INSIDE THE BUILDING, THAT IS THE SITE FOR THE COMMUNITY CENTER, FOR OVER A YEAR NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because I see the same thing posted all over the internet.

I don't want the government to step in and stop them. I just said I was against it. I never said what I thought they were doing was illegal. Its just morally corrupt. I also wouldn't say I am a conservative. Republican, yes.

The argument is nothing to do with is it legal or not. Of course it is legal.

People are NOT acting from ignorance and hate. They are acting from actual history of the radicals that blew up the trade center. We all agree it is legal. We also know the history of these people. We know that that Imam also said that the United States was to blame for 9/11. We also know who is going to help finance this. No one in the country is saying to not build it. They are just saying they should reconsider where to build it based on who wants to build it and the history of why they tend to build their mosques for a victory celebration.

I see two different fronts on this. Mentioned above that hate and ignorance is destroying the country. I agree. For the last 8 years we had one group continually attack the sitting president from every from how many vacations to he planned 9/11. We heard lie after lie about their voting record on the wars. We see them attacking anything Christian but continually support a movement that is completely anti American by its very nature. Even going to the lengths to argue, like the Imam in question, that we were responsible for 9/11. I ask you, who and why are you destroying our country?

How about this. Should any Branch Dividian people set up a memorial for Tim McVeigh next to the buildings in Oklahoma City? After all he was just attacking the government for something the government did to the people in Waco, TX. That would be alright wouldn't it? It is legal and after all, you would just be hating on them with your ignorance if you did not want that built there.

You see, it is possible to recognize something is legal but also understand that something is wrong. That is what is absolutely wrong with liberalism. People lose all common sense. That why many believe liberalism is a mental disorder. When the country used to be great, we had the ability to actually say something is F'ed up and do something about it even if it was legal to do so. Maybe Rosa Parks should have kept walking?

You see, it is possible to recognize something is legal but also understand that something is wrong. That is what is absolutely wrong with liberalism. People lose all common sense. That why many believe liberalism is a mental disorder.

No they believe that because they are idiots that work themselves into a frenzy listening to the idiot masters on the tube.

You see, it is possible to recognize something is legal but also understand that something is wrong.

Again, as many have said. This is a statement of opinion. I, for one, don't think that the idea of a mosque there is the greatest thing since sliced bread, however, I also realize that it is a travesty to block it.

Rosa Parks is a piss poor example. Yes, the context is on par but the subtext remains that what was happening with her was in direct contradiction to what was the founding document of this country. In this regard, your argument should be for the mosque, not against.

EVERYTHING THEY DO IS CALCULATED AND INSIDIOUS!! EVERYTHING!!
Go ahead let them. I am always amazed that the people that scream loudest for something to be permitted are nowhere to be seen when it ineviatably all goes wrong.
And as for statements of opinion. We think it 9/11 was an outrage. So what? That's just our opinion. Millions of muslims hailed it as a great victory. All just opinions.

2003 - 2nd anniversary of 9/11,a minutes silence all across the UK. Two muslim workers started s******ing throwing paper planes,and making deragotaory references to "yuppies flying from the buildings". Management was furious, and fired them.
The two took the company to a tribunal,won, got paid $10,000 each,and were re employed with grovelling apologies all round.
If it was the other way around? You would be charged with a hate crime and be fortunate to stay out of prison.
That was 7 years ago (it might even have been 2002)
That will never happen. No? It's happening,you just can't see it because you are living right in it.

And by the way rights4all, every single one of the bombers that blew up the trains and buses on 7/7 in London were British citizens. Born and raised there. Filled with simmering hatred. Nice to see what they did with their citizenship. Why don't they go and live in a muslim country if they hate us so much.
They march in the streets all over the world screaming about the Great Satan and burning the American flag whilst kitted out in Nikes,Reeboks and NYY baseball caps???
The argument is pointless anyway as it is just opinions. They'll get their way in the end. Upside is it will be the end of Obama.

There you go. Zero regard for those that have been murdered.Any bets some radical cleric is behind her. She'll get her way in the end. If she doesn't she'll sue. Humam rights you know. They know all their rights and none of their responsibilities.

Non-muslims can't even visit Mecca- it is forbidden yet we are to be tolerant towards Islam?? Women can't drive and get stoned for breaking Islamic laws yet we are to be tolerant?? OK, I will support a Mosque in NY when the great evil (Islam) supports a gay bar in Mecca. I wonder if the new NYC mosque will have Saturday Night "honor killings" when parents can murder their own children for disrespecting Islam while the other members frantically cheer like they did when planes smashed into the WTC on 9/11.

This is not accurate. Residents of Murfreesboro, TN fought tooth and nail to block a mosque from being built. Same goes for residents of a smaller town recently I believe in Wisconsin. My point is if the community center is blocked from being built 4 blocks from ground zero, what is to prevent future roadblocks in other cities and states? This very well could lead to an atheist group fighting to prevent a Christian church or a YMCA from being built. All any opposing group would have to do is cite the blocking of the Mosque near ground zero if is ruled to be legal stoppage.

EVERYTHING THEY DO IS CALCULATED AND INSIDIOUS!! EVERYTHING!!
Go ahead let them. I am always amazed that the people that scream loudest for something to be permitted are nowhere to be seen when it ineviatably all goes wrong.

The proximity of those two statements in your post made me laugh.

Quote:

Non-muslims can't even visit Mecca- it is forbidden yet we are to be tolerant towards Islam?? Women can't drive and get stoned for breaking Islamic laws yet we are to be tolerant??

Um... yes. None of those acts are tolerated in the US That's why we are better. Not because we ban their religion. They are free to practice the legal aspects of their religion in the US. The best way for Muslims to learn to respect human rights is to practice their religion in a country that demands they respect human rights. Many Christians had to be dragged kicking and screaming into observing the human rights of blacks as late as the 1960's.

The islamic vermin are taking advantage of morons like you to try to destroy us. Like I have been saying for years... the islamic vermin are the enemy and American liberals are their clueless allies. If their goal is truly to build a bridge (which is a joke) they should say they appreciate the concerns and are open to a mutually acceptable location. Of course they aren't saying this... they are saying screw the victims of 9/11 that THEIR FOLLOWERS murdered, they deserved to die, we want to build the mosque so our followers can see the power of Allah. Another tired and stupid comparison to Christianity??? LOL

"This very well could lead to an atheist group fighting to prevent a Christian church"

Actually I am a bit annoyed with all the churches in my neighborhood. There are too many, and they sit empty most of the time. It's a waste of resources and a waste of space. I would definitely be against more darn churches in my neighborhood. Thankfully not many come harassing me at my home anymore, which is good with the water shortage and all and me not having to waste water using my sprinklers on them in the middle of the day.

It is telling that there are liberal talking point in support of a mosque and organized religion. When was the last time there were liberal talking points involving Christianity?? Maybe defending the right to put a figure of Jesus in urine to call it art to display in a public place or something??

Rob, liberal talking points also defend the right to portray Mohammed in a cartoon if you haven't noticed. Apparently defending people's right to lack class is liberal. Even if the rights they defend are those of Conservatives.

My frustration with the liberals is they don't understand the history of these people and why they are trying to do it. I have not heard a single acknowledgment of what these people are trying to do from the left. I only hear and see words that back them up. These people are evil. Just start making a list of all the things blown up over the last couple decades and you can figure it out. They know it pisses off most of the country and they still want to do it. You can argue (and you have) that it is wrong for people to feel the way they do about it, but at the end of the day if I were trying to build "brigdes", I certainly would not go ahead with it if this. At the end of the day it may be a bunch about nothing anyway, but, it is interesting and sickening to know that a large voting block of the country sides with these people with zero reservations about it.

I guess the people that are freaking out about this community center should be really hysterical by the fact that the second largest share holder of News Corporation the parent company of FOX news is one of those insidious Muslims. Just think, they have significant control over one of the biggest news organizations in the US. Better stop watching FOX news then.

Prince Alwaleed bin Talal al-Saud of Saudi Arabia, through his Kingdom Holding Company, owns 7% of News Corp.'s shares, making Kingdom Holdings the second largest shareholder.

Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal is a member of the Saudi Royal Family. He is the nephew of the Saudi Arabian King Abdullah.

Better get rid of your Mac Book and cell phone because the insidious Muslims are profiting from you.

In 2002, Al-Waleed donated 18.5 million British pounds ($27 million) to the families of Palestinians. The telethon was ordered by Saudi King Fahd to help relatives of Palestinian martyrs. The Saudi government said the term "martyrs" referred not to suicide bombers but to "Palestinians who are victimized by Israeli terror and violence." However, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council said that "some money will go to the families of suicide bombers.

The second largest shareholder of FOX news donated money that went to suicide bombers. So Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Bill Oreilly, etc... work for the insidious Muslim. If you continue to watch FOX news you are supporting this insidious Muslim.

In April 2009, Prince Waleed bin Talal donated $20 million to Harvard University, one of its 25 largest donations.

Better boycott Harvard University as well. If you ever need a good attorney you better make sure he didn't attend a school that received money from an insidious Muslim.

So here we are. many of the same people that are freaking out about this community center are the same people that like Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck even though they are employed by an insidious Muslim. Glenn Beck should break out his chalkboard and do a breakdown on where his paycheck comes from. But I doubt that he is in too much of a hurry to let the world know that he works for an insidious Muslim. The same goes for Sarah Palin.

If you watch FOX News and oppose the Mosque you are a hypocrite. If you Like Sarah Palin and oppose the Mosque you are a hypocrite. But I'm sure that you can find a way to justify your blatant hypocrisy.

Delta,people can dress this up as much as they want. They are testing the waters with this project. We are accomodating and tolerant ie. to them,weak. They know that this offends a lot of people especially relatives of those killed. Why,if they want to buid bridges, do they not back off? In the interest of peace and harmony blah,blah,blah,we have decided......... But no!! This is about getting what they want and if need be they will go to the courts to get it. And the division it causes among Americans? Even better.

They are probably saying behind closed doors "can you believe half of these infidels are behind us"

"My frustration with the liberals is they don't understand the history of these people...."

Because only a 'liberal' wouldn't agree with your point of view on this subject???? And every other subject it seems.

& just to clarify, not all liberals are saying Muslims SHOULD build their center NEAR Ground Zero - they're just saying they have the right to, which they do legally. There are also several other very good points made in the above posts.

Personally, with all the controversy, I think they'd be better to have a new mosque somewhere else - although I doubt a new mosque could go up anywhere else in New York at this point.

Last edited by brettw; 08-26-2010 at 12:50 PM.
Reason: Cuz i feel like it

Even Jesus participated in Passover, a celebration of God murdering children to protect his chosen people. Religious fanactics are all the same in their heart. You protect your own and your religion. The end justifies the means.

The same way that I have yet to hear an intelligent response to the point of the 3,000 killed at ground zero, how this would be a slap to their face. Well, what about the 100 or so innocent Muslims that were killed by the terrorists at ground zero? Do you think that they would be offended by the community center? Do they not count as victims simply because of their religious beliefs, or is it simply some "majority rules" B.S.?

my friend, you have no idea where i stand on this issue or why... You can assume, you can paint with a broad brush.. you can even assume anyone who watches Fox News is a redneck muslim hater... but that would not be fair now would it? kinda like if someone were to assume all muslims are extremists.. huh? the "blatant hypocracy" as you put it, tastes a little funny doesn't it?

Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal now owns a 7 percent stake in Rupert Murdoch's News Corp., the parent company of Fox News, making him the company's largest shareholder outside of Murdoch's own family. Alwaleed is best known for going to Ground Zero after the 9/11 World Trade Center attacks and personally handing then-mayor Rudolph Giuliani a check for $10 million to help finance relief efforts. Afterwards, Alwaleed released a statement blaming the attacks not on the Saudi airline hijackers, but on U.S. policies in the middle east. As a result, Giuliani returned the prince's donation, gaining him praise from Fox News for doing so. Now that Alwaleed has a controlling ownership in News Corp., he is gaining influence over Fox News. In 2005, just months after Alwaleed acquired his first 5.4 percent stake in News Corp., Fox News covered riots in Paris under a banner saying "Muslim riots." Alwaleed allegedly called Murdoch and had him change the banner to say "Civil riots." Investigative journalist Joseph Trento also reported that a comment he recently made on a Fox Network morning news show, Fox and Friends, about Saudi Arabian money still financing Al Qaeda, was edited out of the show. Trento also reports that Alwaleed "has personally donated huge amounts of money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers." In a rare interview with Fox News' Neil Cavuto in January, AlWaleed explained his personal reasons for seeking influence in American politics: the U.S. buys Saudi Arabia's oil, and the bulk of his country's gross domestic product (GDP) comes from oil. Fox News reliably broadcasts misinformation on clean energy, and aggressively fights efforts to move America away from being dependent on a fossil fuels.

Good old FOX news. Influenced by the Saudi's. Imagine that. The building of a community center or influencing American media. What's more shocking?

My problem with this mask is that it is proposed by a Muslim organization that wants the US to be Sharia compliant and it will not disclose where the funds to build the mask will come from. They, however, acknowledge that the funds may come from Iran and other middle Eastern countries but they will not disclose the individuals or organizations. One has to wander why. As to the Sharia law, those who do not see a problem with it must like the recent stoning of a couple in Afghanistan, women in Iran, and another in Egypt. The crime? Having an affairs outside of marriage or not being married...

Really rights4all(except christians)? I guess you support Glenn Beck's conspiracies then right? Because an investor owns part of a company they automatically have influence? Is he on the board of directors with that much invested or is it just the investment company with his name? I am very sure a person that has not grown up in the financial market does his or her own investing. Since you like illogical conclusions, you must think that Obama does agree that America is to blame for 9/11? oops. I'm sorry, I think Obama said that himself didn't he? Obama constantly running the world saying he is sorry that America did this and that. Obama letting Iran go Nuclear on his watch. Obama already on vacation number 10 or so.

I love it. You try and tie an investors company to suicide bombers to a Company that has holdings in a NEWS company and make a fuss about it. Wow. Liberalism really is a mental disorder. I think you miss the total irony in your post. You seem to have an issue with a vague tie in with a vague tie in to a NEWS organization but YOU and THE REST on the left seem to fully support our PRESIDENT supporting this even though it is very clear that Iran on other countries that support the victimization of women, the death of all Jews, and the very people who flew plains into the Trade Centers. Do you guys realize that the guy wanting to build this mosque also said that we were responsible for 9/11 too? Maybe you should go look at the videos of the people throwing themselves out the 100th floor or so. Kind of the either burn alive or fly a thousand feet to my death kind of choice. So yes, your example is just so much better.

I also love this little deal you high lighted:

"Alwaleed allegedly called Murdoch and had him change the banner to say "Civil riots." Investigative journalist Joseph Trento also reported that a comment he recently made on a Fox Network morning news show, Fox and Friends, about Saudi Arabian money still financing Al Qaeda, was edited out of the show"

Really? Allegedly? Are you serious enough to bring that into a discussion. I "allegedly" heard you show your self to small children and the elderly. Why should we care what you say?

Jeremy, there is no intelligent response. You seem to think Obama being elected is a fine thing even though he supports muslims, goes on constant vacation, still has us in two wars, got us into a terrible insurance scam, double digit unemployment......shall I go on? Isn't his election a majority rule BS thing?

As far as the Muslims in the trade centers. What does that have to do with the price of china. Do you think they would still be muslim after that? How far do you think they flew that day. Maybe they just burned or simply fell with the several hundred feet with the fire fighters that day. Do their families want that mosque built? You are doing an quite a bit of speaking for them.

John. You are making a bit of a stretch. You can not deny the facts of who is blowing up who through the years. You are allowed to call a spade a spade. That is kind of what makes America a world leader.

Brett. The fact that liberals can't see the facts for what they are in this and almost all cases is why people are getting so angry with them. It is plain as the nose on your face as to who is doing what. Want to play a little word association and religion? World Trade Center 96 or so, World Trade Center of 9/11, The Iranian hostages, the Cole, the two American embassies, Lebanon, Attacks on Israel, Lockerbee, England Subways, Italian Cruise Ship, 72 or 76 Olympics..... I am sure I can go on. Point is, the evidence is as plain as plain can be. The russians are having problems with them. Indo China area is having huge problems with them. Then we have people in this country that says that is fine?

God D#*#it won't you people stand up when you pee for once. Only thing you people seem to care about is who is allowed to stick who in the butt and supporting any freaking money give away that you can. Heck you won't even stand up to a foreign country that is by defacto invading us and ruining all the social programs that YOUR party wanted in the first place.

John. You are making a bit of a stretch. You can not deny the facts of who is blowing up who through the years. You are allowed to call a spade a spade. That is kind of what makes America a world leader.

I have no problems calling a spade a spade. I'd like to know eactly what I'm saying is a "stretch".

For example, would it be a stretch to say that Rob believes the fundamental principles of America are "moronic"? Because one fundamental principle is that... we are guaranteed the right to practice our chosen religion without the threat of violence or oppression if we obey the laws of this nation. But Rob says that people who defend that principle are morons.

Or is a stretch when asked to examine the history of the Islam religion to note that the Judeo-Christian religion also contains some acts and moral mandates that are deplorable by current moral standards?

It's clear that the cornerstone of some of your arguments is that anyone who practices Islam is practicing evil. And If I was going to call a spade a spade I'd say that calling BS on that is a good place to start.

You don't get the fact that not all Muslims are these violent terrorists or who want every non-Muslim dead. That might be your opinion, but it's not true. Muslim terrorist extremist view do not equal you everyday Muslim's. Many have these violent views. Many don't. You need to watch and educate yourself from sources besides Fox News and the like. Watch the next History Channel/Discover special on Muslims at least or something, for starters.

And I know there are a lot of things said in the Quoran that don't sound too great, to say the least, but like our hardly children-friendly bible, it's open to interpretation.

With comments like "God D#*#it won't you people stand up when you pee for once", you just can't seem to comprehend why and how others see things different from you. You grossly over generalize.

Delta, I don't know you but your probably a decent person. I just happen to think differently than you. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

I stated in my first post that i didn't agree with the building of this community center in this location. But, just because I don't agree with it is no reason to make a fuss out of other Americans exercising their rights. And yes, the people behind this community center are American citizens. You might not like the Islamic faith and that is your choice. I don't much care for it either but I won't let that stop me from defending the rights that all Americans including those of the Islamic faith are entitled to.

You made some comments and I have some comments as well.

You stated Obama supports this Community center. That is not true. Obama merely stated that they had a right to build it. Obama has actually taken quite a bit of flack from the right for not taking a side in this. And why does everything always lead back to Obama? He is not behind this Community center and was not President on 9/11. So I can only conclude that your dislike for Obama is the reason you decided to bring him into this party. That is a typical response.

Also, you strategically picked out just the little tidbit of the article I posted that you could try and discredit.

"Alwaleed allegedly called Murdoch and had him change the banner to say "Civil riots." Investigative journalist Joseph Trento also reported that a comment he recently made on a Fox Network morning news show, Fox and Friends, about Saudi Arabian money still financing Al Qaeda, was edited out of the show"

You didn't mention these parts of the story:

Investigative journalist Joseph Trento also reported that a comment he recently made on a Fox Network morning news show, Fox and Friends, about Saudi Arabian money still financing Al Qaeda, was edited out of the show.

In a rare interview with Fox News' Neil Cavuto in January, AlWaleed explained his personal reasons for seeking influence in American politics: the U.S. buys Saudi Arabia's oil, and the bulk of his country's gross domestic product (GDP) comes from oil. Fox News reliably broadcasts misinformation on clean energy, and aggressively fights efforts to move America away from being dependent on a fossil fuels.

You are obviously selective with what you want to know but that's typical as well.

As for me bringing up the ownership of FOX news, I did that as an example. What is worse, a Community center built by fellow Americans or a Saudi national with enough pull to sway the news of a major US news agency? How about that same Saudi using said news agency to admittedly spread propaganda to sway US policy so that the Saudi's can continue to enrich themselves with Americans hard earned dollars? Fox News reliably broadcasts misinformation on clean energy, and aggressively fights efforts to move America away from being dependent on a fossil fuels.

Where is the outrage there? Are you standing up to that blatant manipulation of the media by a foreign country? They don't need to invade us because they will eventually own us.

Yet you would have us worry about a harmless mosque built in bad taste while ignoring a real threat to the security of our nation.

But whatever floats your boat. And besides, you can always blame Obama.

Oh and as for Beck, don't you find it interesting how Beck will go on a tirade and use issues like ownership of a company or donations to organizations to discredit people but fails to do that when it comes to the company that he works for? If this Saudi owned a huge stake in MSNBC he would be sure to devote more than one show to pointing this out and spinning it as MSNBC being sympathizers of people that support terrorism? You know he would.

"Jeremy, there is no intelligent response. You seem to think Obama being elected is a fine thing even though he supports muslims, goes on constant vacation, still has us in two wars, got us into a terrible insurance scam, double digit unemployment......shall I go on? Isn't his election a majority rule BS thing?

As far as the Muslims in the trade centers. What does that have to do with the price of china. Do you think they would still be muslim after that? How far do you think they flew that day. Maybe they just burned or simply fell with the several hundred feet with the fire fighters that day. Do their families want that mosque built? You are doing an quite a bit of speaking for them."

What does Obama have to do with this? Didn't Reagan support the Muslims? He sure supplied Bin Laden and Al-queda with weapons and training to find the evil communists? Why do I bring up communists? Because that was the old theme of the fear-mongering that used to run rampant in this country. "Be afraid of the communists, they want global domination". Well, now it is the Muslims. "This country is going to be taken over by Muslims with the NYC community center being the headquarters". Honestly, how ignorant does that sound? I guess it is the new way of the U.S., live life everyday being afraid that some group is going to take us over.

"What does that have to do with the price of china. Do you think they would still be muslim after that?"

No, of course not. But I guess when a Christian commits a crime against another Christian, it's okay if the family of the victim denounces Christianity. Tim McVeigh, was registered with the Republican party in NY and was a card carrying member of the NRA. So following your logic, the families of the victims, along with the victims themselves, in the OKC bombings denounce the Republican party along with the NRA.

"Oh and as for Beck, don't you find it interesting how Beck will go on a tirade and use issues like ownership of a company or donations to organizations to discredit people but fails to do that when it comes to the company that he works for? If this Saudi owned a huge stake in MSNBC he would be sure to devote more than one show to pointing this out and spinning it as MSNBC being sympathizers of people that support terrorism?"

I bring in Obama because of your strawman argument. You say someone owning part of a corporation trying to buy influence should bother people and I point out how things our president (who I am sure you voted for) let Iran going Nuclear on his watch and so on. I care way more about his actions toward the islamic world than I do anything about an alleged conversation about some dude who bought share in a company that holds another company. If you don't think that the Arabs (and every other country) don't already own a ton of stocks in American companies then you must be very child like on your understanding of the world. Heck Ted Turner owned all of CNN and I consider that guy to be pretty much an enemy of the United States. If not an enemy, at a very minimum he holds the United States in no higher regard than any third world country and is very pro UN. Considering the UN does not have our constitution and is pretty much power hungry, I consider them an enemy of the US in a general context. So, to answer your question. The strawman you threw up in regards to this guy owning part of a corporation does not bother me in the least. Our president does concern me and the overall real actions that I see bother me.

I understand that these people have the ability to build the facility. I understand that they may already pray and do what ever there. I also understand who these people are and understand Islam and where it came from and what these people do to celebrate victories over their enemies. That is where the disconnect is. The general theme of the left is that there are no one in the world wanting to harm us or others and all people who are evil are just constructs of Foxnews watchers minds or that we caused it anyway so we should take our medicine. That is a broad brush and an attempt to paint all people that don't believe in what you do as simple people not capable of advanced thought. Hate to break it to you, but, I don't watch TV news and I don't listen to glenn beck and I pretty much read progressive websites more than I do right leaning sites. I simply understand human nature and see facts.

At the end of the day it seem that even you admit it is in bad taste to build it which is pretty much saying the same thing as everyone else. If you believe it is in bad taste then you by defacto know who flew the planes into the trade center and what religion they represent and that makes you just as bad as the people you are arguing with. If you actually believe islam has nothing to do with it, then you would not believe there is any "taste" issue. Everyone knows who did it but at least we have enough guts to say it out loud. Did you against or protest the wars? It was legal for us to go to war so why did you or anyone else protest or speak against the wars? The mem you are trying to put out is that it is wrong to speak against something that otherwise be legal.

Jeremy,
you bring up Reagan. He was more for using what was needed to stop Soviet Expansion than it was to help Bin Laden. His use of them may have turned out to be historically short sighted but with our countries policies and the way we treated issues at the time. I don't think the muslims were a global issue so much at the time. They pretty much only killed each other back then with a few excursions into Europe and Asia. Heck Reagan even granted amnesty to the Illegal Mexicans back in the day and see how that is back firing on us.

I don't think you really understand your history if you don't think the soviet expansionism was a huge threat to our allies. Try reading up on how many millions that Lenin and Stalin and the rest murdered to keep them in line. We had allies and we were not going to let their people be subject to that treatment. We were standing up for what is right in the world. Another example of idealism that you seem to believe in vs reality. Now look at present day France and England and all current mulsim countries as well as the genocide in the Sudan as Muslims continue to kill and enslave the christian masses. Then go back and do the word association I posted in the last message and you tell me which group of people did those deeds. The threat is extremely real and I have studied where Islam came from. It is pagan worship cult whose main god became the main god because Muhammeds tribe went and killed the others in Mecca and then struck a deal with the city leaders to let them keep the pagan fests if they replace the other tribes gods with his.

The difference between your christian vs muslim killing each other mem is this. A person who calls himself a christian that does these acts will be quickly denounce by all christians for the actions. When the islamofacists flew the planes into the buildings, it was cheered by the muslim world and not a single American muslim stood up and spoke against it. Then you have the left in the country making excuses that we caused this including the imam that is building the center.

Let me ask again. Can they build a Waco memorial at the Oklahoma City Muir Federal Building blast site? Would people be in the right to protest it? Would it be legal to build it?

Brett,
I get the fact that not all muslims are radicals. The conventional percent I always hear is 10% so that only makes about 100 million of them willing to kill or die for the cause. That is bigger than any Army I have ever heard of. Most of the muslims are social muslims. Muslims are not allowed to even read the Quran outside of its native dialect. That is why they go to these Imam's.

I can understand how people think differently and I also understand how people got led into the gas chambers in Europe. I understand how the Communist revolution was sprung on it's people as they murdered millions to keep them compliant. I understand how women and non believers are treated in Islamic countries. Want your daughter sold to a sheik at age 8? Want your daughters vagina sewed shut? Want more honor killings (which have happened in the US already)? Want shria law to be implemented in the US (it is recognized in England and I think there was just a case in the US pushing for it recently)?

John,

I get the beef you have with Rob. I am saying stretching this whole deal to recognizing passover 2000 years ago as the same as islam. Islam was born from war and preaches the sword. They live by it to this day. Passover was God trying to get the phairo (sp?) who enslaved his people to get him to let them go. All they had to do was put the blood on the door and they would have been spared according to the story. So how would honoring a tradition of the people (you knew were going to nail you to a cross btw), the same as a murdering pig?

You just have to give Islam the time to write a New Testament. Remember they are a couple thousands years behind the Judeo-Christian religion both chronologically and in the maturity of their beliefs.

BTW, my sentiments weren't accurately stated in that post. I don't mean to disparage the Jewish people for celebrating Passover. If I was a slave and my liberater had to kill my oppressors children to set me free, I'd be celebrating too. It was more a reference to the enigma of religion, violence, and the assault on human rights being so closely coupled without any reservations of the believers. I won't even ask the question of why an omnipotent loving God would kill children instead of targeting the source of the problem, as we all know there are an infinite number of unconvincing rationalizations to explain these things.

No one says they don't have a right to build the thing... complete with 767 cockpit simulators. However, they maintain they want to build it as a token of good will which stupid people and liberals appear to believe. Yet, when anyone opposes this location they shoot up their middle finger and say they are building it where they want. So, it appears there is indeed a "victory mosque" type agenda which has been demonstrated throughout history when muslims conqueror someone. Obviously, the the closer to ground zero the better. How hard is this to understand? The great evil Islam must be stopped. Part of their plan has always been to use American values against us. Now, fellow AMERICANS are defending the right of a radical Iman with terrorist ties (granted what Iman doesn't have terrorist ties) to build a mosque were 3000 Americans were murdered by muslims. Again, if you support the mosque you are mentally ill IMO.

"You just have to give Islam the time to write a New Testament. Remember they are a couple thousands years behind the Judeo-Christian religion both chronologically and in the maturity of their beliefs."

Oh. There behavior is ok since christians did it thousands of years ago! They just have to catch up!

Actually Islam was started around 610 A.D. That was about 300 years after Caholicism and of course 610 years after Christian. What many contribute to Christian-Islamic wars were actually the Catholic Church vs Islam. The two religions have very similar belief systems but both are actually different than those of the original christian religion. They are not a couple thousand years behind Christians because Christianity started with Christ. If not for Christ we would still either be pagans, Jews, atheists or some eastern religion. The new testament was written because of Jesus. The way people saw the Jewish religion changed literally over night with Jesus. The Quran was written because of Muhammad. There is not going to be a new testament to it. The Muhammad actually spoke very well of Jews and Christians (Jesus specifically) until they rejected him and his teachings in Medina. He then turned his whole writings around and started to preach hatred toward those who reject Islam. He took a army of 10,000 men to Mecca and conquered the city and kicked out all the other tribes gods and replaced them with Allah, the god of his tribe)

Do any of you religious nuts ever pause and take thought that you're all stardust stuck to a rock spinning around one of a billion fireballs in one of a billion galaxies containing billions more fireballs with billions more rocks spinning around them?

Do any of you religious nuts ever pause and take thought that you're all stardust stuck to a rock spinning around one of a billion fireballs in one of a billion galaxies containing billions more fireballs with billions more rocks spinning around them?

"A person who calls himself a christian that does these acts will be quickly denounce by all christians for the actions."

What about the guy(s) that have murdered MD's that perform abortions? I didn't hear much denouncement aimed at those guys.

Plus, isn't a keystone in Christianity the idea that you "hate the sin, not the sinner"? I love the fact how you have excommunicated Catholics from Christianity. I think you should change your name to Prophethoosier or maybe the 14th apostle.

In closing, I'm done with this topic. Truth is, the community center will be built. Then in about 6 months no one is going to give a sheet. Except delta of course. You'll be able to find him hiding under his mattress waiting for the rapture.

For starters you did not hear anything about it because does not happen very much. It did happen in 2009 in a church of all places and the last one happened in 1998. Of the few that did happen, some were not actually tied to the doctors profession and another one or two may have been people trying to start crap. For instance one was also done by Eric Rudolph who also was the Olympic Park bomber. So what were you doing 12 to 17 years ago that you were paying attention to what christians had to say about these crimes? More crap you are just saying for the sake of saying it. You don't even know what you are talking about now.

Yes, the keystone of Christianity is to love people. You are suppose to dislike their actions. As a christian you should help your fellow man in hopes they will lead a honorable life. Even Jesus turned over the money changers tables in the temple when he saw what they were doing leading people astray. What does that have to do with this subject?

How have I excommunicated Catholics from a religion they were never part of? Again, more crap you like to say but have done ZERO research on. How can you claim a religion that came 300 years after Christ and it was started by the very people who fed the Christians to the lions for sport because they did not accept paganism and they were then fed to the lions after catholicism for not accepting christianized themes in the very simple belief in Jesus Christ is the savior and the only way to heaven is through him. The put in things like the patron saint of such and such city in the place of the God of whatever city, Sun God worship changed to Christ's Birthday, the alteration of Mary as a deity and so on. The Christians did not agree with this because it was in direct conflict of Jesus teachings. In Catholicism, as well as Islam, the basic premise is a God who can not save them. They believe in the scales of justice (good works) and/ or martyr is the only way to heaven. Though Catholicism does not offer martyr in modern times, it has been offered by at least one Pope to crusaders who died taking back Jerusealm from the Muslims. Considering the Catholic leadership (meaning men) have affirmed and then reaffirmed the infallability of the Pope in the Vatican I and Vatican II (or was it one of the vatican councils and the Council of Trent?), the offer of martyr was the true voice of God according to the Catholic leadership. Jesus did not offer any such things and Jesus simply said that YOU only have to accept him as the Lord and Savior and you will be with him in Heaven. He even said as much to the man hanging on the cross next to him. He also forgave, before God, the men who nailed him to the cross. I take him over a paganized man made religion anytime.

So, I don't know how I did all that when you don't even know enough between the religions to make accusations. They are not even the same religions. Muslims believe in Jesus and Worship Mary as well. Mater of fact the Quran mentions Jesus more than it does Mohammad. The rosery in Catholicism is actually Muslim and they believe the same things in regards to going to heaven and being a Martyr. Does that mean I can call Muslims Catholics or even Christian as you would have it?

Jeremy, you sure have a high opinion of what you think I worry about. This is just a discussion about a topic. I would not exactly put it my highest things to worry about except I am disappointed that nearly everyone of you leftists don't think the Muslim center should go up because it is in bad taste (because you know it was muslims that did it in the name of Islam) but don't have enough balls to say how you feel about it. I don't actually consider myself religious at all and I sure as heck won't be hiding waiting for anything. I am the kind of guy that if you get my face and touch me, I will jack you. I am just not childlike in my view of the world. I don't walk down a strange back alley counting hundred dollar bills because I know there are people in the world that will jack me. I suppose you are the same way. Only difference is, I can apply simple life lessons beyond the reach of my hand. I also don't like people bring bull crap to the discussion. I hear something that does not sound right, I will research the crap out of it. How about you do some research before you spout off.

"In 2001, in the 9/11 attacks after hijacked Flight 175 penetrated through a tower of The World Trade Center, part of the plane's landing gear and fuselage came out the north side of the tower and crashed through the roof and two of the floors of the Burlington Coat Factory at 45–47 Park Place, between West Broadway and Church Street, (600 feet (180 meters)) north of the former World Trade Center. The plane parts destroyed three floor beams, and severely compromised the building's internal structure. Nine years later the building was part of a national controversy, as efforts to build a Muslim center and mosque at the site as the "Cordoba House" sparked a national controversy"