I should add that if a battle is small enough, they only list the army leader and gloss over things. When Liu Bei ran Gaotang county, he fought turban remnants; when he was under Tian Kai, he helped fight Yuan Tan. In both cases it's very likely Guan Yu and/or Zhang Fei was helping him out (the other may have been protecting the city -- and, therefore, may have been fighting him there), but Tian Kai vs Yuan Tan wasn't important enough for history to cover it too well, and Liu Bei vs Turban Remnants was even smaller.

Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

I don't recall that exact phrasing being used again but I doubt Cheng Yu was going "and our warriors are not as good" while the sgz calls Lu Bu the strongest of his era. People didn't tend to rank their fellows (at least not in a recorded way) beyond Lu Bu being the strongest and I don't think there is any "Guan Yu/Zhang Fei is good but so and so is better"

“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

Sun Fin wrote:Did Confucius or any of his disciples have anything to say on the topic of bastard children?

Let's see here...

Well Confucius himself may have been a bastard child. His father and his mother were said to have had a "wild union" (granted what that exactly means have been debated since Sima Qian put it in the Records of the Grand Historian) and Confucius' mother is disowned by the father's family once Confucius' dad dies when Confucius is three. This said, Confucius must have eventually repaired the split and became clan head as he is noted as giving his disabled older brother's daughter in marriage to one of his disciples.

Mencius would quote the Convention at Kuqui where Overloard Huan of Qi put forth that no concubine should be made wife (thereby no concubine's son can be made heir.) The irony is that Overlord Huan had no legitimate sons with his three wives, but had six with his concubines with his chosen heir being one of the six.

So none of Confucius' immediate disciples mentioned it, but Confucius himself was the son of a concubine. Mencius was of the lineage of the Duke of Zhou so his view in this regard may have been biased.

As you know security is mortal's greatest enemy.

SimRTK is back up in a testing phase! Go ahead and give it a look over on the Simzhou forum branch.

The term which Cheng Yu uses to describe Guan Yu and Zhang Fei is 萬人敵, "A Match/Foe for Ten Thousand Men". Based on this wiki page, this seems to be a term for describing someone along the lines of who we would picture the Dynasty Warriors version of Lu Bu as: very physically powerful and skilled in personal combat, an incredible offensive fighter who can punch through lines alone or at the head of some battlefield company, who sweeps the enemy before him and strikes fear in the enemy, but without necessarily saying anything about his abilities as either an overall general or as a strategist. The only person who seems to have been called this before Guan Yu and Zhang Fei was Xiang Yu, but it popped up every now and then in the historical record from then on.

"You have attacked us before, and we survived! You cannot defeat us. Submit!"
"We have. You did. We can. No."

So coming from Cheng Yu, would you say it's likely a literary reference - comparing them to Xiang Yu? A way of acknowledging their strength in battle, but not necessarily praising them, as Xiang Yu was Han's great foe. Cheng Yu was kind of an insulting guy, after all. Or am I looking to apply a negative connotation to something that's just supposed to be praise?

Maybe only if one made comparisons with Xiang Yu's ambition or his personality would it be deemed an insult? It doesn't come across in the sgz passage as meant to be there as an insult

“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Ma Chao, Pang Tong, Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun were all subsequently compensated with a title during Liu Shan’s time and this title rewarding was deemed as a great honor

, Pang Tong doesn't quite fit the same comments of bravery so Chen Shou doesn't make it six tiger generals. Note the generals are all in the same period whereas Wei Yan and Wang Ping came into play later. Zhao Yun had saved Liu Shan's life, served Liu Bei through difficult times, helped take Yi and Hanzhong including possible empty city plot, gave advice, noted bravery in battle

“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”