I am disappointed. I know knothing about macro economics but shmartpeople I know I have railed against the common currency; also it was more fun when each country had its own name for its currency!! This is why I also miss the Ecuadorian sucre and the Argentinian austral.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 2):I am disappointed. I know knothing about macro economics but shmartpeople I know I have railed against the common currency; also it was more fun when each country had its own name for its currency!! This is why I also miss the Ecuadorian sucre and the Argentinian austral.

Estonia has had a fixed exchange rate with the Euro and Deutsche Mark for a long time so this is really not much of a change for the economy.

Congratulations to Estonia.

As for economic criticism of the Euro people tend to mix things together. The problems in Europe are due to sovereign debt levels and the fact that governments with the Euro can no longer print money and are therefore reliant on the market for funding. But mostly government debt levels just can't be blamed on the Euro. Additionally the argument that all the countries in Europe could devalue their currency to increase their competitiveness and fix their problems just doesn't make sense because if all the countries devalue then they all cancel each other out.

Quoting DunaA320 (Reply 1):I guess my 160 Kroons I have are no good anymore!

Good news, your 160 Kroons (10 Euros) is valid money still

*Until 14 January 2011, it will be possible to use both euros and kroons in making cash payments.
*Until 31 December 2011, banknotes and cents will be exchanged for euros in the bank offices in Estonia.
*The Bank of Estonia will exchange kroons and cents for euros without a specified term, service fee and according to the official exchange rate.

The 'always accurate' Daily Mail had a ridiculous article plastered on its site describing how Estonia was ".....gearing up to join the European Union". The fact it has been in the EU since 2004 seemed to escape those clowns entirely.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):The 'always accurate' Daily Mail had a ridiculous article plastered on its site describing how Estonia was ".....gearing up to join the European Union". The fact it has been in the EU since 2004 seemed to escape those clowns entirely.

So, do we wonder why so many Brits are against the Euro?
...
ehmmm ... no!

There have been a lot of lies and misinformation spread about the Euro over here, for little more benefit than nostalgia about the pound. For the record I have wanted the Euro for years. We would have been far better placed recession-wise if we were in the Euro beforehand, even if the government is less able to micromanage the economy as a result.

There have been a lot of lies and misinformation spread about the Euro over here, for little more benefit than nostalgia about the pound. For the record I have wanted the Euro for years. We would have been far better placed recession-wise if we were in the Euro beforehand, even if the government is less able to micromanage the economy as a result.

So, do we wonder why so many Brits are against the Euro? Look know further than who owns most of your media, his ideology and the rest follows. Murdoch hates the EU, even more the Euro and does a good job of maintaining a compliant British cheer squad accordingly. You can make fun of those Americans watching Fox 'News', but the UK has a dozen local versions under Murdoch's agenda.

Quoting GST (Reply 9): There have been a lot of lies and misinformation spread about the Euro over here, for little more benefit than nostalgia about the pound. For the record I have wanted the Euro for years. We would have been far better placed recession-wise if we were in the Euro beforehand, even if the government is less able to micromanage the economy as a result.

The attitude today is that any economic problem in a country with the euro must be the euros fault, as if another currency would litterally fix all their problems. Truth is that another currency would fix very little but cause other problems not seen before.

I doubt whether Britain's opposition (as opposed to some readers of some news papers) has much to do with Rupert Murdoch. I also suspect that RM himself couldn't care much one way or the other - he is in business to make money and money is money, whether it is US dollars, Australian dollars, Euro or pound Stirling despite any fluctuations in value between them.

The same can not be said for the City - i.e. London based financial markets. At the moment the pound has the status of one of the world's reserve currencies and the Stock Exchange in London is one of the the world's leading markets. Whatever advantages the City may enjoy would be lost if it became just another trading centre within the Euro Zone. Given that England ceased to be the factory of the world a few decades ago, this is something the UK Government is unable to ignore.

To the average Brittish citizen, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference when they fly to Majorca (or wherever is fashionable and affordable this year) for their summer holiday.

Given that the Esti kroon has been linked to the Euro for some time, unless collectively shopkeepers deliberately "round" the wrong way, there should not be any problems.

Seeing where Mme Concorde is from, her fears have some base. In France, there were some very strong price hikes after the Euro introduction. Funnily enough, round my place in Austria and Southern Germany, I have seen no such effect, so it's definitely not the Euro's fault.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 11):The attitude today is that any economic problem in a country with the euro must be the euros fault, as if another currency would litterally fix all their problems. Truth is that another currency would fix very little but cause other problems not seen before.

Thank you very much for this comment, so finally I'm not the only one saying that any more...

WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.

And I wish it was, one day Norwegins will come to their sences and join. The really daft thing is even thought they are not part of the EU they follow all it rules and directives yet they have no say in making them.

Wait until you need to buy a house or a car and you'll wish you were back in France. Or if you take a trip to a Norwegian supermarket you'll be astonished by the lack of choice, poor quality and expense.

Quoting U2380 (Reply 17):a referendum on the over-glorified trade block is the EU, then we would see what the British Public really feel.

How such a vote would go would surely depend on the issues at the time. How many British travelers, for example, are vehemently opposed to the EU regulations on compensation for disruption to travel?

The way the question is framed may affect the result. A blanket "are you in favour of Britain disappearing up the arsehole of the EU?" would no doubt result in a resounding "No."

"Are you prepared to give up your rights that you presently enjoy for more restricted rights under UK law?" might have a different result.

How many travelers disrupted by the closure of airspace following the volcanic explosion in Iceland volunteered to give up the rights under EU law in exchange for the treatment that carriers like FR were offering?

How people "really feel" depends on what's happening at the time and when the wind changes, so do the feelings.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):And I wish it was, one day Norwegins will come to their sences and join. The really daft thing is even thought they are not part of the EU they follow all it rules and directives yet they have no say in making them.

Tell me about it. I live in Switzerland by now. 25 CHF/kg for turkey breast is the usual price, even on the low side, meaning 16,60 to 20 EUR/kg depending on the exchange rate. Over the holidays I visited my parents back in Austria, 10 km for the border and I bought 1,5 kg turkey breast for 12 EUR, i.e., 8 EUR/kg. Believe me, Mme Concorde, the salaries are not SO much higher here...

WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 21):The people's income level and the state of the economy for the two countries are at opposite ends. Also Norway is not part of the Euro zone or even a member of the E.U.

Norway is a part of the EEA, which makes it a second tier EU member. Norway already complies with about 75% of all EU legislation, is part of the Schengen agreement and is for all intents and purposes a "non-voting" EU member. That's their choice, but to claim that they're "not even a member of the EU" is pushing aside the fact that Norway is almost an EU member.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):Are you seriously suggesting that allowing criminals the vote is the only or most important measure of whether a prison system is 'modern'?

Where did I say "only" or "most important"?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):Quoting U2380 (Reply 26):
But the EU should not be defining it for us.

Absolutely.

Absolutely not. The European Union is more than just "economics". Fortunately. Otherwise the UK (or Hungary or any other country) could re-introduce the death penalty or ban inconvenient people from voting.
Sadly this wasn't the first time Britain ignored an EHCR ruling for quite some time. I think that's alarming.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):Absolutely not. The European Union is more than just "economics". Fortunately. Otherwise the UK (or Hungary or any other country) could re-introduce the death penalty or ban inconvenient people from voting.

That's the problem, the EU should not be anything more than economics. It should be a trade block, it should not be something that interferes with national governments, and changes things against the will of the people. Or the government itself.

Quoting U2380 (Reply 32):That's the problem, the EU should not be anything more than economics.

I can see both sides of the argument, but why shouldn't the EU be? For all intents and purposes, the UK choose to be part of the EU and helped shape it. If you don't like the game, don't start playing it and if you really don't like it, stop.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
Are you seriously suggesting that allowing criminals the vote is the only or most important measure of whether a prison system is 'modern'?

Where did I say "only" or "most important"?

You stated the problem and a conclusion. You clearly implied it was the reason for your statement, but I won't get bogged down in pathetic semantical arguments. If you want to avoid such implications then qualify your conclusions and arguments rather than simply stating one thing, following it immediately with a conclusion, and not expecting people to make a significant link between the two.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):The European Union is more than just "economics"

Well obviously.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):Fortunately. Otherwise the UK (or Hungary or any other country) could re-introduce the death penalty

The UK has never indicated that such a move would even be remotely considered.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):Sadly this wasn't the first time Britain ignored an EHCR ruling for quite some time. I think that's alarming.

And with good reason. Be alarmed all you want, the UK generally has a good history of abiding by European law, but sometimes lines have to be drawn in terms of the level of meddling allowed in our internal affairs.

I feel that the EU member countries are too different for the EU to become a super state, and that if they try to become one all good relations between the counties will ultimately be lost.
That’s why, I feel, by making it any more than a trade block, (by implanting regulations and rules and taking huge amounts of power away from national governments) is the beginnings of the EU trying to become a super state of sorts.
Again this is all my opinion of course. Also I apologise for going so far off topic

I think we would if we could, we haven’t had a referendum on the EU in the UK for a very long time. And recent polls show that if we were to have one now (that simply said something along the lines of ‘Do you think the UK should be a member of the European Union?’) then the UK would not be in the EU. I think this sums in up quite nicely:

“No one under the age of 54 has been asked about Britain's relationship with the EU. Yet there have been gargantuan transfers of power to Brussels since 1975. Then, the EEC was a trading association. Today, it is a proto-state, with a foreign minister and diplomatic corps, a police agency and criminal justice system, a parliament and government, a currency, driving licence, passport and flag. If ever there was a proper subject for a plebiscite, this is it”
Daniel Hannan- telegraph.co.uk

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 34):You stated the problem and a conclusion. You clearly implied it was the reason for your statement, but I won't get bogged down in pathetic semantical arguments.

I merely stated the obvious (or what should be obvious): Depriving convinced felons should be no element of a modern prison system. No more no less. No need to throw around with superlatives.

Quoting U2380 (Reply 35):“No one under the age of 54 has been asked about Britain's relationship with the EU.

Actually, yes they have. You elect your government and they say that the UK shall remain to be part of the European Union.
You haven't been asked if London should remain to be UK's and England's capital, though.

God, I wish the UK just left the EU in a jingoistic huff and let the rest of us get on with reality. The British reactions on a.net to anything saying "Europe" on the cover are, at best, entirely predictable.

But more importantly, Welcome to the Euro zone, Estonia! It was about time, too, IIRC you were planning to introduce it much sooner.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 12):I also suspect that RM himself couldn't care much one way or the other

You can resolve your doubt by doing a search of his media coverage of some key events and with the help of hindsight see the propaganda machine and its agenda:

- Case for invasion of Iraq
- 2000 - 2002 coverage of the Euro introduction
- False information about the state of the UK economy vs Eurozone ones over the last 2 years
- Coverage of the recent UK election

He has an ideological agenda and sees himself as a shadow power to elected government to push for its execution. Read some of the testimony of his ex-employees from Fox and other interests. I believe money is a secondary objective to his desire for real influence in political outcomes.

I would prefer the UK to vote on the EU as a whole. Simple Yes or No.
The outcome would in my humble opinion be a clear No.

Then lets have the economic and travel borders set up again.
Britain can get similar deals to Norway and having to negotiate from a point where 70% of the countries exports go to the EU. A rather weak position to negotiate from and it will lead to the UK having to agree and follow the EU in most instances just like Norway has to. It will please the brits and it will please the EU because then they are free to develop the Union deeper and further.
maybe the British people will realise that the problem isnt the EU but Britain itself when they see that virtually nothing will change when Britain is out of the EU.

Having lived in the UK almost all my life, I was so fed up with all the media lies spread, ideas like that the pint was about to be banned when at the same time it was springing up as a measure in pubs all over the continent. Pure disinformation. I almost became pro EU because of all this disinformation and factually wrong arguments. I got so fed up with the lack of knowledge, the disinformation that I started defending the EU in a lot of discussions just because the person arguing against it was stating opinions based upon untrue facts.
Me I am against the EU for a simple reason. the closer I have to my government the better. I also happens to love England, its my country. I prefer an independent Britain, actually I prefer an independent England, no Scotland, no Wales (Sorry my fellow brits don't take offence but I see no reason for you to have parliaments when we don't - we wont the wars remember...)

But despite me wanting out of the EU I cant stand all the disinformation and lies being spread about the EU and the myth that screams powergrab. When challenged very few can provide concrete examples of how this powergrab have affected out daily lives or limited our politicians decision making power. Instead they revert back to media lies about the EU and that is very frustrating and limits the possibility of a decent public debate.

Instead arguments against the EU are often similar to what a poster above says i.e. he blames the EU for a ruling in the ECHR!
what the EU would have to do with the European Court of Human Rights is beyond me. Its not an EU institution and I am sure Britain can leave it anytime it wants to, but in Britain its better to pretend like its Europe that forces Britain into certain things put the blame elsewhere and the worse is people buy it. Lots of people probably think the ECHR is connected to the EU and blaming the EU for its rulings...

Quoting Asturias (Reply 29):That's their choice, but to claim that they're "not even a member of the EU" is pushing aside the fact that Norway is almost an EU member.

Which I why I don't get why Norwegians have a problem being members, at the moment they are members with no say in the rules which they have to follow.

Norway will have a problem when fellow EEA member Iceland join the EU, that then leaves Norway out on it's own (Liechtenstein is hardly a country), maybe then people will see sense, certainly the business community is all for joining.

The electorate have been time and time again lied to, and not only on this matter. So actually we have elected governments that have said we will have a EU referendum. Only this has never happened.

And this is a EU problem how? To me it sounds like it ought to be time to find some trustworthy politicians (although that kind of is a contradictio in terminis) and get that referendum. If blaming others doesn't work, perhaps it's time to do something about it!

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther

Quoting JRadier (Reply 42):And this is a EU problem how? To me it sounds like it ought to be time to find some trustworthy politicians (although that kind of is a contradictio in terminis) and get that referendum. If blaming others doesn't work, perhaps it's time to do something about it!

Actually that was a reply to this comment..

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 36):Actually, yes they have. You elect your government and they say that the UK shall remain to be part of the European Union.

I'm going to wrap up my end of the discussion now anyway. It's my opinion that the EU is fine when just a trade block, the EU is not that. It intervenes in other ways which encourage communality between the countries (open borders, single currency, single governance, e.t.c). The EU countries have very little common ground except location, various 'disputes' through the ages have shown this. It's an artificial attempt to create a super-state to rival the US.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 41):Which I why I don't get why Norwegians have a problem being members, at the moment they are members with no say in the rules which they have to follow.

Norway will have a problem when fellow EEA member Iceland join the EU, that then leaves Norway out on it's own (Liechtenstein is hardly a country), maybe then people will see sense, certainly the business community is all for joining.

We don't like the idea of being run entirely from Brussels...

Norway is also a country with a very small population. We won't get alot of votes in the EU and won't have much to say. The EU is also not very democratic. If you don't agree with something , you are basically forced to agree...

I don't think that Iceland joining will be a relevant factor, in Norway's desicion. Why do you think so ?

I never liked the Euro. I was never favourable to it. I was forced into it just like many others.

What good is the Euro ? Look at Greece, Ireland... Now they are talking about bailing out Portugal and Spain. The whole thing is going to collapse at some point or other.

They can try to find any schemes they want to make it hold together but at some point or other rather sooner than later the whole thing will go bust.

It's clear.

Euro stands just 20pc chance of survival in next decade
The euro stands just a one in five chance of surviving in its current form for ten years, according to the Centre for Economics and Business Research.

It's quite interesting that you should say this and then bring up the US in the next sentence. Have they not had the biggest dispute, domestically, that any nation can face? Your logic would dictate that because of the American Civil War, there should be no United States in its current form. And what about the history of Britain? You've fought quite a few domestic wars, too, so according to your logic, what common ground is there?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 44):We don't like the idea of being run entirely from Brussels...

Oh dear... I'll just politely call this a massive misunderstanding of what the EU is and what it does.

I'm sure you do. Funny how other countries who pick and choose which elements of integration to adopt are not vilified in the same way. Some do not have the Euro. Some are not in the EU but are in Schengen. But for some reason, the UK is the biggest problem. Sorry, it is not borne out by the facts, and smacks of utter prejudice at times. There are always disagreements in Europe, yet somehow only we should get out. Hmm.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):Funny how other countries who pick and choose which elements of integration to adopt are not vilified in the same way.

If it was just about a pick-and-mix for the UK, I wouldn't have a problem. The reason why the UK stands out is the Maggie Thatcher rebate, the ceaseless propagation of euromyths - while ignoring the facts disproving them - and the attitude towards "Europe" in general. Many British people seem to actually believe that their island is in no way a part of the European continent and that any effort towards European integration is an attack on the proud and glorious British Empire; whatever remnants of it they might be thinking of.

It's these perpetual lies and this arrogance that makes British Europhobia stand out. Of course there are jingoists and anti-EU movements in many, if not all, other EU member nations, but they carry far less weight and find much smaller audiences. As for this website, I've been a member of it for more than nine years and with minor exceptions, Europhobia has always and exclusively been displayed by British and American a.netters.

I'm sure you or somebody else will take offence, but so be it - it's been shown time and again that reasonable debate over the strengths and weaknesses of the EU and of integration in general is impossible on this website. Funny, this, since aviation should in theory be a subject that brings people together.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):Actually massive numbers of people disagree with you there, certainly among the British public. To call this opinion of yours 'obvious' is somewhat conceited, to say the least.

Accordingly it would be "conceited" to criticize Hungary for its new and thoroughly problematic media law because many people there might actually welcome said law. Or to criticize Berlusconi for doing something similar because he's still surprisingly popular.

Quoting U2380 (Reply 43): It's my opinion that the EU is fine when just a trade block,

The European Union has never been "just a trade block". The Union always wanted to promote peace, freedom and civil/human rights among its member countries. Its root lies in the end of WWII and the Schuman plan, according to which several nations assigned a common management to run their heavy industries. Thus making a uncontrolled rearmament impossible.

Besides, it is questionable if it is really possible to maintain a "trade block" without incorporating legal structures that affect life in the community in a broader sense, be it open borders, a common currency, standardized sizes, labor legislation, environmental laws and a legislation that limits the presence of residues and contaminants.
With that you would need a parliament or some sort of government - actually you would need a legislature, an executive arm and a judiciary. Besides, you would need some sort of governmental body to represent the "trade block" to the world outside of the European Union.

It bewilders me to hear that civil rights should be considered less important than trade laws or should remain to be an internal affair, as this is basically the same argument China, North Korea and some other countries use.

I don't wish to derail this thread any further, so this is going to be my last off-topic reply, after which we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Quoting aloges (Reply 48):I'm sure you or somebody else will take offence, but so be it - it's been shown time and again that reasonable debate over the strengths and weaknesses of the EU and of integration in general is impossible on this website. Funny, this, since aviation should in theory be a subject that brings people together.