Professor David Solomon, the inventor of the polymer banknote, has told vegetarians that they're being "stupid" over their opposition to its trace amounts of animal fat.
The UK's new plastic notes were introduced earlier this year to replace the UK's battered and disintegrating stocks of paper** £5 notes.
However, when the …

Or maybe it's that people are more likely to sign something that they think might make a difference? If enough people complain about the tallow they'll find an animal free alternative, it's not like it's fundamental to the money making process.

Re: And yet...

>A petition calling for an end to the Badger Cull, something surely of equal interest to Vegans et al is languishing with barely a fraction of the votes this time waster has garnered.

There hasn't been a widespread badger cull, only a trial of one. A smart badger-hugger will do nothing to oppose the trial because:

- 1, The trial was found to be not very good at killing badgers

- 2, killing badgers only results in a badger vacuum, quickly filled by more badgers moving into the now-vacant territory. If badgers are eventually found to be vectors for bovine TB, having lots of badgers moving across the country would only result in more cattle with TB.

Re: And yet...

I have trouble picturing a badger vacuum. Is that a really small vacuum cleaner

You mean, in a "101 Uses For A Dead Badger" sense?

Thank you for the Friday afternoon chuckle.

(sidenote: in a spirit of whimsy, I did an image search for "badger vacuum". My surprise at the fact that google was ready to auto-complete it as soon as I typed "badger v_" turned to realization that it's the name of a real company, who apparently do excavation hydrovac services for the pipeline industry. The More You Know...)

Re: And yet...

Re: And yet...

In other news there are at least 150k people who have so little to occupy them that they have enough spare time to get outraged over trace amounts of tallow used in polymer manufacturing.

The ship has sailed, and the cow is long dead, folks. Tallow is used because it's cheap, readily available and it does the job. You're not going to change that.

Instead of protesting against this cause, how about you go find something useful to do, like, oh, I don't know, donate some of those foul, tallow-infested banknotes to your local food bank, women's shelter or some equally deserving organization of your choice?

Apart from the (technologically unavoidable) vellum and squid ink thing, RIPA is vegan friendly - it might even save a few cows given the Department of Agriculture and Rural Affairs will now be able to monitor internet usage and get out in front of cattle mutilators and bull botherers.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

What if the tallow was obtained from an animal which had died happily of old age. Surely then it's just perfectly green recycling?

I guess it could also be extracted from various human limbs certain religions deem it acceptable to hack off for various transgressions. I wonder if Saudi Arabia has thought about a possible export market?

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

So it's in there accidentally by the sound of it. As such probably not going to involve masses of retesting to take it out.

Well, no, because it's in there for a reason. The raw material is turned into pellets which facilitates transport and processing, the slight presence of tallow is there to make all of that easier. That means that removal is out of the question, and attempts to replacing it bring you straight back to the original challenge: finding something better that has less overall impact.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

> could be other factors

Tallow is almost exclusively saturated fat, so it won't oxidise and become adhesive as partially unsaturated vegetable oils will - for an experiment, try treating your cricket bat with tallow, and compare with the traditional linseed oil! I'm thinking that the tiny quantities of tallow involved must be about ensuring the free-flow characteristics of the base polymer pellets. In a similar way, SmartiesTM are polished with a waxy substance to stop the sugar coatings from sticking together.

A little trivial research seems to indicate that tallow is cleaved to produce materials for soap manufacture in quite large quantities: washing one's hands is likely to generate much more contact with molecules that were once part of a cow than is handling a new fiver.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

But why specifically tallow? Who not something vegetable based like a shortening?

Because there is further processing involved. These pellets get heated, mixed with colours and then injection moulded or, I suspect, rolled into sheets of some description. I don't think that tallow was just as random a "let's just take what can really annoy people" choice as people make it out to be - a production process requires many tries until you have the right fit for chemical and mechanical properties against costs.

You can't just literall throw something else in that mix because you are dealing with a LOT of variables - you change one and you get a whole chain reaction of other things you may need to adjust - and some may create worse problems from a vegan and ecological perspective.

I worked in plastic production (for my sins I have an exceptional colour vision), and even replacing colours with versions that are less of a health hazard or work better with fireproofing additives (in cars) is a swine - when you start to play with things that directly influence the chemical balance of the output it gets several shades harder.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

"These pellets get heated, mixed with colours and then injection moulded or, I suspect, rolled into sheets of some description."

IIRC from an episode of How It's Made or a similar program, they use air to blow a huge balloon-like structure 3 or 4 stories high of clear plastic in a continuous manufacturing process (so I suppose it must be a cylinder rather than a balloon) Quite impressive from what I remember, but no, not rolled into sheets to make money.

Re: not rolled into sheets to make money.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

Vegetable shortening usually contains hydrogenated palm oil.

The palm oil industry cuts down hundreds of acres of rain forest in Indonesia and Malaysia to plant rows of stubby oil palms. In the process they kill any number of wild animals including endangered primates. and well as the flora.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

>>I too wonder how long it takes for those loony eco-warriers to work out

>You sound like a Daily Mail reader from, let's say, the 1980s

Look, I was brought up to have respect for the environment (and none at all for the Daily Heil), but I have a rational outlook and a fair grounding in science. There are lunatics who profess to be environmentalists, just as there are lunatics who are climate change deniers. Indeed, one can feel that it is lunatic greenies who do more harm to the good fight than right-wingers, because they make it easier for Joe public to dismiss very real concerns as hysteria.

It would be best if dreadlocked crusties shut the hell up, and left the airwaves clear for people like David Attenborough and scientists to make clear, well-argued points.

Instead, we've had Greenpeace activists set fire to a GM research nursery in Australia (thus spreading GM plant matter far afield, the opposite of their intent), and the moratorium on nuclear power in Germany.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

If it's in there accidentally it's possible the machine that makes the pellets uses a tallow based lubricant. That could be because a lubricant with a different base might have a negative reaction with the polymer, they save a nickel, or any number of other reasons like better yield, less maintenance, etc. Either way it's all speculation at this point and most importantly they've already been made so simply tossing them in the bin won't make the animal the tallow came from any better off.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

@Lee D

>>because that money has to last 20-30 years in the field without any kind of maintenance.

Where did get those lifetimes? They are crazily optimistic.

How long does money last? That depends on the denomination of the note. A $1 bill lasts 18 months; $5 bill, two years; $10 bill, three years; $20 bill, four years; and $50 and $100 bills, nine years. Bills that get worn out from everyday use are taken out of circulation and replaced.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

If I order some fish and chips and eat a few of the chips whilst waiting to pay, the notes I pull out of my wallet and hand over are likely to end up carrying more than trace amounts of oil, and my preference is for chippies that use beef dripping. I would imagine that cotton/linen notes would soak up more oil than plastic notes.

lifetimes and other matters

the new fivers are already developing permanent sharp creases, as the material seems to be unable to relax after being folded. This could well shorten their effective life. Also,more than one shopkeeper and a bank teller have all told me they're difficult to count quickly because they don't pick up on the fingers like paper.

Re: lifetimes and other matters

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

Also, if your talking about USA dollars - they are the worst paper currency I've ever used, with perhaps the exception of Egyptian.

They appear to have been printed on a 1970s printing press on the cheapest paper known to man, and then left in circulation so long I imagine their cocaine percentage is higher than paper on the most part. dreadful stuff.

And then when you finally had a redesign, the only thing you did was add colour!! I mean WTF.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

Yes.

They made a mistake, including a trace ingredient which is unnecessary, and which was always going to cause problems for a significant percentage of the population. So, they have to remove it.

Bottom line, your idea that they have to redo all of the testing is rather implausible. If the amount of tallow is so low, it's not likely to be a critical component, or have a critical impact. Tallow is pretty much just fat; it's not a specialist compound.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

Tallow is pretty much just fat; it's not a specialist compound.

Oh, so I guess for you oil is just oil too? If you don't bother to check which oil you put in your car you may discover that some oils don't like it cold, some don't lubricate when it's really hot, some don't even belong in your engine but in your brakes and, for instance, olive oil doesn't suit any of those categories.

It's not "just" tallow - it's a very specific compound, chosen for very good technical reasons. You can't just swap that out with anything else without addressing the elements that made it the only choice. It is quite possible (and likely) that any alternative would have had a more negative impact on environment, cost or even publicity if it had become known. I reject the implied suggestion that the people who made those decisions don't know what they're doing.

To be honest, to me it's all a bit too much of a tea cup weather front - it's too much Trump-alike looking for problems where there aren't any, just to draw attention. We're talking about minuscule percentages of a product that would otherwise be wasted and to be frank, if that sort of energy would have been spent on finding better homes for animals it would have made more of a difference than this pathetic nitpicking. But that's just my opinion.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

your idea that they have to redo all of the testing is rather implausible. If the amount of tallow is so low, it's not likely to be a critical component, or have a critical impact.

I tell you what. We'll do a run of polymer without the tallow, and you get to stand near the production line and pray we don't have a dust leak or a dodgy earth cable (because, you know, you've already removed one line of defence). Ditto for packing it, and for extra fun we won't use standard bulk transport but bag it up in 25kg bags which I'll let you stack. You will get zapped by every bag you touch, and I suspect that after an 8 hour shift you would probably not even notice if someone tasered you.

Use your brain: even small amounts of tallow cost money. It needs to be sampled, transported, certified, stored, unpacked (etc etc), so it would have been left out if it wasn't really essential. This produced by a business, not a charity.

Furthermore, there is really no direct correlation between how much you use of something and how important it is or how much impact it may have. Ask anyone who suffers from a nut allergy.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

"Furthermore, there is really no direct correlation between how much you use of something and how important it is or how much impact it may have. Ask anyone who suffers from a nut allergy."

But what about people like the Hindus who view cows as sacred and subject to better treatment than themselves and who also view killing of any kind as wrong because you could be killing a reincarnated relative?

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

But what about people like the Hindus who view cows as sacred and subject to better treatment than themselves and who also view killing of any kind as wrong because you could be killing a reincarnated relative?

If they're anywhere like my relatives I'd have no objection to have them served up with a nice pepper saus and some crispy fries and their remains be present in banknotes. They love money more than people anyway.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

It's most likely stearic acid, rather than actual tallow being used, but they both come from cows.

If you want to cause a real uproar, start pointing out how ubiquitous Stearic acid is in all kinds of consumer products. It's used in all kinds of plastics processing (shopping bags for example) as well use numerous cosmetics.

Re: Not much of a chemist then?

Pandora's box?

Now that there's huge outrage about the animal content of plastic fivers, are we going to see a rash of 'news' stories about stuff that people have been using for years suddenly being discovered to also contain animal by-products?

How do vegans / principle-based veggies feel about clothing made from wool, or stuff like hand-cream which contains lanolin?

Re: Pandora's box?

and presumably in the same factories introducing the potential for cross-contamination, especially if its levels of under 100 parts per million that are causing the nutters to get vocal over the fivers.

Re: Pandora's box?

Not sure that is a good point to make. Wool naturally falls from sheep and shearing just accelerates that process and is beneficial as the result is more comfortable (obvious the process the sheep go through is a little distressing, but done well most of them seem to bleat quite merrily afterwards.

It's a bit like using human hair after a haircut, no animal died to use it.

Some of the more headstrong vegans may feel we have no right to remove the wool or that buying it supports the exploitation of sheep products so helps the overall industry, but many don't and no "principle-based" vegetarian will care, I would assume.

Re: Pandora's box?

Speaking as one who is married to a vegan she is more concerned about the animal's welfare as a whole. Think e.g. dipping in chemicals, confined environments, slaughtered at an early age, stress at any one of those stages.

Another comment is oft heard coming from the less well educated in this field (a major majority of people ) - the "animals dead anyway" - clearly, not the point !

Re: Pandora's box?

"Another comment is oft heard coming from the less well educated in this field (a major majority of people ) - the "animals dead anyway" - clearly, not the point !"

And here lies the hypocrisy in those who are demanding a vegetable based alternative. The paddock where the vegetable based alternative is grown has already been cleared and the animals living there removed or killed. What is more ethical? Finding a use for what is effectively a waste product or roasting Orang-utans in land clearing to make way for a Palm Oil plantation. Sure, there is such a thing as sustainable Palm Oil but these are just the plantations that got into the game early and animals have already paid the price for people to get that warm and fuzzy feeling they're doing the right thing..

Re: Pandora's box?

Re: Pandora's box?

Not sure that is a good point to make. Wool naturally falls from sheep and shearing just accelerates that process and is beneficial as the result is more comfortable (obvious the process the sheep go through is a little distressing, but done well most of them seem to bleat quite merrily afterwards.

But in our dream vegan world, there wouldn't be any sheep for the wool to fall naturally from. Why waste valuable lentil-growing land to graze sheep, just to get a crop of wool? Ditto, no cows, chickens or pigs. I was going to say, 'apart from a few in a zoo', but of course there are no zoos in Vegtopia. You might get the odd wild Jersey or boar wandering the Northern forests, but that's it.

Veggie is fine as a lifestyle, and probably pretty healthy. But munching on the occasional bit of naturally-reared animal does help to keep a living countryside. I rather like hearing the local sheep, cows and horses chatting when I'm dozing off to sleep.

Re: Pandora's box?

The era when anyone made vast amounts of money thanks to the wool trade has long passed, and whilst it's true that wool might naturally fall from sheep, I suspect you would find that harvesting it by picking it out of hedgerows would not be economically viable (or would mean £500 sweaters). Wool is now financially a very minor part of the sheep-rearing business and, like milk and leather, is strictly a by-product of the meat industry.

Re: Pandora's box?

"Not sure that is a good point to make. Wool naturally falls from sheep and shearing just accelerates that process and is beneficial as the result is more comfortable (obvious the process the sheep go through is a little distressing, but done well most of them seem to bleat quite merrily afterwards."

Errrr..... by that logic, the cow would die naturally anyway, we just accelerated that.

Not sure that's the strongest debating point you could have picked, but I kinda get where you are coming from

I have to say, I find it grossly depressing and offensive, that given the shit going on in this world, that THIS is what gets people upset. They probably f!"£$~@ inhale more "animal based byproducts" walking into the damn supermarket than they get from touching a fiver. Grow the f**k up and take a more reasonable, balanced view of the world. I do not believe the Human Race could possibly survive without farming and eating animals (how we treat them, whole different argument), so animal by-products are forever going to be a "thing". Live with it and stop expecting the significant majority to bow in homage to your own personal fetishes!!!

Yes I know that's insensitive, yes, I know some Religions have issues with it, but seriously people, get over yourselves.

Re: Pandora's box?

Think it was sheep originally,

I believe the original insulin extracts were done from horses. Pigs, cows and even fish have been used too. Each of them is similar, but not identical to human insulin and each has their own set of problems.

Nowadays, a lot of it is made by recombitant DNA tweaking of bacteria (including the human insulin-producing gene in a bacteria genome so that one of the waste products that it produces is insulin). First done in the early 80s.

Re: Pandora's box?

>And diabetics.... wasn't insulin originally derived from pigs, despite now being synthetically produced?

With mixed results - synthetic insulin (actually sold as 'Human Insulin' in one of the greatest triumphs of 20th century medical marketing) doesn't work for everyone so natural animal insulins are still widely used. Fortunately many 1000's of vegans now donate actual human insulin to prevent exploitation of animals and allow diabetics who would otherwise die to live normal lives.*

Re: Pandora's box?

Re: Pandora's box?

"How do vegans / principle-based veggies feel about clothing made from wool, or stuff like hand-cream which contains lanolin?"

Given they won't touch nonhuman milk or eggs, both of which issue naturally and non-fatally from animals, they probably avoid them anyway and stick to all plant-based products. I think the trickiest part for them is maintaining B12 supplies since this is best done by eating ruminants (not an option here) and therefore have to rely on bacterial fermentation processes (the only other way to get it).

Re: Is there a petition to insist that we DON'T change the new £5 note?

@John Sanders

"It is all about virtue signaling, never forget that, they need to show everybody how much better people they are than the rest of us."

Oh really? There was me thinking that being vegan usually has nothing to do with other people's perceptions and everything to do with reducing the unnecessary suffering and premature (often unpleasant) deaths of other species that cannot speak up for themselves.

Ironically, you seem to be the one out to show everybody something. By criticizing the vegans, aren't you trying to show everybody that you're a better person than they are (and yes, I'm aware you could apply a similar argument to my own post)?

Re: Is there a petition to insist that we DON'T change the new £5 note?

Re: Is there a petition to insist that we DON'T change the new £5 note?

@ Tim Hughes

I would be surprised if there was one. Petitions are for people who feel something needs to change and want to represent this feeling by weight in numbers. Unfortunately this leads to a few people who care about something being visible while the other opinions are not voiced (e.g. its a non-topic).

I do wonder how many of these snowflakes are the ones crying over brexit (I know of a few of these vegans) which was a democratic vote of majority wins with a clear answer. I do wonder how these people cope in the real world where not everything goes their way. Beyond their incessant complaining that is.

Re: Is there a petition to insist that we DON'T change the new £5 note?

I did start one yesterday because this whole thing is a farce. Although I feel that petitions themselves are pretty rubbish tools - so, a petition has 150,000 signatures. There are 64 million people in the UK. What do the other 99.8% of the population think? A petition tells you nothing because you don't know a) how many people have seen it, and b) how many of those people oppose it or how many don't care. Of course a petition with 32 million (genuine) signatures might be a different matter.

Re: Is there a petition to insist that we DON'T change the new £5 note?

Considering it's such a tiny amount

Re: Considering it's such a tiny amount

Perhaps because millions of the things have been produced and are now in circulation. Without a total re-design of the note, making it easy to spot which is which, how would anybody know which ones were full fat fivers and which were not?

Re: Considering it's such a tiny amount

> Why is it so tricky to change?

Because it's introduced way back up the supply chain. Bank of England buys the plastic unprinted web from Innovia, Innovia buys the base plastics from one or more polymer producers, one or more polymer producers use or produce plastic pellets which are kept free-flowing by trace amounts of tallow.

Silly people

Can't work out that this is going to be a problem? Really?

I mean, I just ate a kitten burger, no really, but I wouldn't expect your average lolcat lover to appreciate it, which is why I'm posting AC. People get unduly sentimental when cute furry animals are dying for things. If it bothers you that humans are irrational then it shouldn't. I'm sure you like or dislike something that makes no sense.

Re: Veganism

Re: Silly people

Veganism is about all animals, not just the cute ones.

Maybe you don't have animal blood on your hands, but life itself is a competition for resources and the chance to breed.

My burger means a cow got to breed, have offspring, and live in relative comfort and safety, if for a short time. Your veggie burger denied any cows life, and by you eating the veggie burger, you denied that food to either cows or other organisms. As for "not just the cute ones", I doubt that vegans can avoid treading on ants, nor are they happy to cohabit with rats.

Re: Silly people

Re: Silly people

"My burger means a cow got to breed, have offspring, and live in relative comfort and safety, if for a short time. Your veggie burger denied any cows life, and by you eating the veggie burger, you denied that food to either cows or other organisms. As for "not just the cute ones", I doubt that vegans can avoid treading on ants, nor are they happy to cohabit with rats."

Why don't vegans ever consider the feelings of the plants and vegetation they eat? What if someone were to establish an organization People for the Ethical Treatment of Plants and Vegetation?

Re: Silly people

Re: Silly people

Oh, I would never eat a non-cute animal. I'm part of the customer base that has encouraged the growth in zebra meat sales in the UK. Venison too, knowing I'm eating Bambi's mother just makes the meat sweeter.

Re: Silly people

Re: Silly people

what would be your response to banknotes lubricated with protozoa?

Never mind the first image that called up (which has little to do with protozoa), but the second one - which came from a few minutes examining just what lives on money (notes and coins). It's enough to make you wear gloves or convert you to contactless credit card (terminal buttons are shockingly filthy too). Ugh.

Thankfully a lot of alcohol either sterilises it, or makes you care less :).

Re: Silly people

As Oscar Wilde said, "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."*

OK, it's sizzling now.....(pause...) Search Great British HP sauce...check - OK it's from Holland, but it'll have to do...(pause)

Nam nam nam....

(Bacon Butty icon á la Lester Haines required.)

* Full quote, from the Picture of Dorian Gray:

“The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself, with desire for what its monstrous laws have made monstrous and unlawful.”

Re: Silly people

What we really should be eating is grey squirrel meat. They're not farmed, so no cruelty (as long as death is as quick and painless as possible). They're nutritious and delicious, there are plenty of them and reducing their numbers might benefit trees and red squirrels (the UK's favourite wild animal).

No, but all those Vegans etc. are holding a Candlelit vigil with tallow candles, whilst washing with tallow based soap, to remove the stain of the new notes off their hands, and making themselves feel better as irony isn't a concept they understand. :)

Please don't use palm oil. It's leading to deforestation and driving the tiger to extinction. Unless, of course, you want to start feeding Vegans (and Politicians) to tigers. Human encroachment on habitats will soon mean the only living large carnivores will be in zoos.

parts per million

presumably the outraged are aware that...

"The polymer in virtually all of the world’s plastic bills is made by a single Australian company, Innovia Security.

Innovia are the makers of Guardian, a substrate used to manufacture the polymer currency of 24 countries, including Canada, the United Kingdom, Mexico and New Zealand.

Tallow does not appear to be a stand-alone or critical ingredient in Guardian, but the by-product got into the substrate because it is used in processing by Innovia’s resin suppliers.

“Polymer substrate used as a base for bank notes contains additives that help with the polymer manufacturing process, similar to many commercially available plastics,” wrote the Bank of Canada in a Wednesday statement after contacting Innovia.

“Our supplier of polymer substrate, Innovia Security, has confirmed to us that these additives may include extremely small amounts of tallow,” the statement added. "

...and...

"Indeed, small amounts of processed cow parts can be found in everything from [...] to brake fluid. In fact, almost all of the images ever featured on historic Canadian currency would have first been prepared by an artist using tallow as part of the engraving process."

...and until their demands are met will cease ride in any vehicle not certified animal free

Was the animal slaughtered in alignment with Halal principles? Just curious [and not being sarcastic] - there is a wide and disparate community to think of here. They really should have thought this one through before hand.....

Lessons from history ...

More importantly....

Could they make them behave more like the old notes? They are a right sod to count in bundles. Slide all over the place and stay bent rather than flattening out. Please add whatever animal products are necessary to improve things (except kittens, obviously)

Re: More importantly....

If the new UK notes are anything like the Canadian currency I experienced on a recent holiday to Alaska, then I agree with your assertions. PITA, albeit a minor one. The biggest headache for me was the creasing. I normally carry currency bound by a money clip in my front pocket. This necessitates folding said currency in half. Do that with plastic currency like Canadian (and presumably similar British) and you end up with creased bills that, as you pointed out, stay bent and no longer lay flat.

It's not a huge problem, in the grand scheme of things, but it's mildly annoying and a minor learning curve/inconvenience.

Re: Tree Huggers and Veggies

'Fessd up. Fair enough.

When I was working for Nokia - years ago, we made a basestation with integral antennas. One of the stipulation to the antenna manufacturer was that it didn't contain _any_ of a certain chemical. At that time, I was responsible for procurement of the antenna.

Supplier called me - sheepishly - and said that they actually _do_ use this chemical in a glue, but it was about 1 microgramme per antenna (it hat two). Is it a problem?

The reason this particular material was banned was that it was highly toxic when burned.

Did a bit of research (Google being in its infancy then) and I allowed my common sense to prevail. If about 100,000 of these antennas were to catch fire, simultaneously, and a fireman wasn't wearing his/her breathing apparatus, then, yes - (s)he _might_ get cancer in 20 years.

I decided "Go ahead and make it, folks"

'Elf and Safty somehow have no reason, sometimes. Bit like some "Religious Vegans" I see in the pub, supping beer clarified by isinglass...

Just a Troll living under a bridge with a comment to make

Just a couple of points to make from different conversations:

RE KITTENS

Personally I like to eat a nice pussy every now and then!

RE VEGANS AND TRACE AMOUNTS OF TALLOW

I would expect a lot of vegans are also followers of homeopathy (the two do seem to happen quite often hand in hand) so probably the smaller the amount the trace element (in this case tallow) the stronger the effect of that trace element. So have we just invented the homeopathic fiver?

Re: Which reminds me

I fry in lard becuase it is much healthier than even butter. Not to mention the dangreous artificial vegetable oils. Grow up. Humans are omnivores, and even if YOU can live on veggies, many of us can't possibly live on carbs alone. It would make us fatter than a Prescot.

Plant a cow seed for every fiver produced

I normally try to be nice to the vegans

But even by vegan standards, I think the issue is more than a little overblown. The Unicorn vegan collective, in my neck of the woods, has even had to clarify that they absolutely will take the new five pound note. The really odd thing? They also have vegans in Australia, where they make all their notes the same way! Not so much of a fuss kicked up down under!

Just proves that some people walk around in a permanent state of 'being offended' - aided and abetted by a Grievance Industry looking to make a fortune in the courts. You just couldn't make it up could you!

Re: "...Killed less than ONE cow"

Oblig XKCD

Re: Oblig XKCD

That should be "Earth's land Mammals." Ants and termites, to mention just two groups of insects, have total masses somewhere around the total mass of humans. http://www.antweb.org/antblog/2010/10/do-ants-really-have-the-largest-biomass-of-all-species-on-earth-laurie-usa.html. There are also a whole lot of fish out there. And a fair number of birds.

The thing is

Polymers are made ultimately from petroleum, which is largely made of animals (zooplankton). When I pointed that out to my vegan daughter she replied that it didn't matter because those animals had died of natural causes millions of years ago. So apparently this somehow makes a difference.

I was a veggie for a while. Personally I wasn't against eating animals, just the crappy conditions they're kept in, and the effect on the environment yada yada yada. But alas, I got fat on my veggie diet and picked up meat eating again. I guess I could just buy more free range organic if I wanna care.

Use roadkill.

Problem with materials? No, it's when you fold them the trouble starts

The fold is almost impossible to flatten out, especially annoying when you've got to feed them into a machine at the Post Office / supermarket etc., and what about the people working on tills? They'll now have to be extra careful the stack of folded fivers don't spring out of the tray.

Get a life.

I just don't get why vegetarians are up in arms about this. Okay, so they don't eat meat, but how many of them wear leather/suede products? How many have leather furniture? How many eat jelly sweets that contain gelatine? I could go on (and on).

The vegans I can understand being shouty about it, but then to them it's just another way to tell the world that they're vegan.

There are far more pressing matters afoot in the world today that people should be shouting about.

Re: Get a life.

Furthermore, how many of the vegans/vegetarians rely on being able to live their life because of things other people do (like keeping the power grid going, road maintainance, phone service etc. etc.) who eat meat?

Are they eternally angry at the rest of the world who do eat meat so jump at the slightest of chances to proclaim their 'holier than thou' status?

Click HERE to be ever so outraged

My apologies for not wading through 200+ posts, because I daresay my point has already been made a score of times. What I want to know is this: of the 200,000 or more Outraged who signed the petition, what proportion have at least one pair of leather shoes?

They really are a hyper sensitive bunch. A bit too much on edge it seems.

Hitler who was a bit unhinged went vegetarian later in life. Although the vegetarian part does get disputed. ( being unhinged doesn't )

This is worth a look :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466124/

From the "Conclusions" section of the above link :

"Rather, our results are more consistent with the view that the experience of a mental disorder increases the probability of choosing a vegetarian diet, or that psychological factors influence both the probability of choosing a vegetarian diet and the probability of developing a mental disorder."

Finally, when I see veggie heads ranting it does remind me a bit of the character Jack D. Ripper in Dr Strangelove ranting on about "bodily fluids". Maybe that's just me ...

ROFL

On the one hand, given (a) the fact that so many things in the world are complex in composition to the point that it's nigh-on impossible to buy anything which is truly free of any trace of animal, (b) as has been pointed out, even stuff that Vegans might approve of will have depended upon ythe labour of meat-eaters at some point due to teh interconnectedness of society, then aye, I agree that uproar about such tiny traces of tallow is downright silly.

On the other hand, I also note the absurd outrage here by meat-eaters at the fact that some should choose to be vegetarian or vegan. Why should it bother you that somone else chooses to eat differently to you? Does it make your food taste any better or worse? No! And whilst the article referred to above at this link http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/opinion/veggie.html is, in my estimation largely correct,

(a) it ignores things like large chunks of rainforest being chopped down to produce more beef - because it is profitable to doso. That's not good for biodiversity, quite the opposite. (yup. I know - Britain was likely wall-to-wall trees at one point, but aside from that being a whole 'nother argument, the rate of change was nothing like as fast as we can manage these days, which IMO ought to be a factor for consideration) (b) force-feed people lard? Really? What kind of idiot thinks that's a sane way to treat other people or win an argument?! (c) why should you care? If you like meat so much then if some folk eat less meat it's all the more for you, no?

The best point made regarding vegetarianism being a bad thing was with regard to children and animals being fed diets their bodies can't handle. Definitely something that vegetarians and Vegans need to be aware of - but it;s also a very tricky subject, as it isnt just children fed vegetarian diets that have had problems (eg: kids getting rickets due to an insufficientlyvaried diet).

You extreme pro-meaties are quite as bad as the extreme vegams IMO, both throwing your toys out of the pram and being a bit selective in your arguments.

Right, I'm off to eat something I like along with a beverage of my choosing, and I frankly don't give a damn whether anyone disapproves or not.

Re: ROFL

"The best point made regarding vegetarianism being a bad thing was with regard to children and animals being fed diets their bodies can't handle. Definitely something that vegetarians and Vegans need to be aware of - but it;s also a very tricky subject, as it isnt just children fed vegetarian diets that have had problems (eg: kids getting rickets due to an insufficientlyvaried diet)."

I give the simplest argument against veganism in general like this: if man were meant to only eat vegetables, why did we evolve with canines?

Fine

Bacon flavour

Got a couple of paper fivers? just dip the corner in the fat left over from frying bacon (so that'll be more than 100 parts per million). Now go spend them at the local veggie cafe.

Many years ago I worked behind the counter in a bank. We could weigh-in bundles of notes rather than count them. Whenever to local butcher paid in his takings the bundles would be over-weight and we had to manually count. It was invariably correct but blood and even tiny scraps of meat on the notes accounted for overweight. If the veggies want to eliminate all possible contact with dead animals they're just going to have to stop using cash - and in all probability all contact with the rest of human society.

When my 9yo heard about this - she asked "Don't butchers and farmers and people who make kebabs and burgers and things like that touch money? Won't lots of coins coins have tiny bits of animals on them too?"

Here's a thought...

Go to a vegan restaurant.

Order a big meal.

Offer to pay in new fivers.

As new fivers are legal tender, if they don't accept them you do not have to offer an alternative and can just walk out. Legal tender MUST be accepted in settlement of a debt (which is why you have to accept a £20 quid note, but not 2000 pennies; one penny is legal tender, over 20 is not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#United_Kingdom )

Re: Here's a thought...

Only if a DEBT is in play. Now, for your restaurant situation, that's correct because the bill represents the debt, but a shopkeeper is under no such obligation since he can simply refuse the sale and turn you out; nothing changed hands there, no debt is involved.

Vegetarians losing their minds? What else is new. You are, after all, talking about folk who will argue with a straight face that the diet we're evolved to survive on - roughly 10-20% meat - is less healthy than whatever they or some charismatic self-proclaimed expert can come up with.

Anonymous Cow-herd

Well, the inventor doesn't seem to know the difference between a vegetarian (who probably wouldn't mind about using animal products), and a vegan (who would). Apparently, in 28 years, it didn't occur to him that including bits of cow in the notes might be a problem to some people, for example those who think cows are sacred. This reduces how much credence I give to his opinion.

Re: Anonymous Cow-herd

What makes you think that the 'inventor' cares about the opinion of someone who thinks that a few parts per million of dead cow would be sufficient reason to have a cow on the matter? He sells plastic to governments for use as money. That's the end of his involvement. Presumably, should the Indian government think that the Indian public would have a cow on the matter, they won't be buying that plastic. Presumably, there just aren't enough Hindus in Britain (or Australia, or any of the other countries which buy the plastic) for the governments to care, and there are a hell of a lot more Hindus than there are vegans.

Should the governments in question start to request cowless plastic, then they'd get cowless plastic, no doubt at an increased price to cover the costs of de-cowing it. Once the bill for de-cowing is presented, I suspect that the majority of governments, most especially including the British government, would decline to pay extra for de-cowed plastic unless a significant portion of the electorate screamed loudly enough. A few thousand, or even a few hundred thousand, out of a population of 60 million is not going to be enough.

Re: Anonymous Cow-herd

But what about for a country like India, which (a) has over a billion people by itself, and (b) has a sizable number of Hindus and other people for which the cow is sacred, making the use of beef products of any kind taboo?