If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

BOOK OF EQUANIMITY. Case 12

Case 12

Dizang asked Xiushan, “Where do you come from?”
Xiushan said, “From the South.”
Dizang said, “How is Buddhism in the South these days?”
Xiushan said, “There’s extensive discussion.”
Dizang said, “How can that compare to me here planting the fields and making rice to eat?”
Xiushan said, “What can you do about the world?”
Dizang said, “What do you call the world?”
The Verse
Source and explanation variously are all made up;
Passing to ear from mouth, it comes apart.
Planting fields, making rice—ordinary household matters;
Only those who have investigated to the full would know—
Having investigated to the full, you clearly know there’s nothing to seek.
Zifang after all didn’t care to be enfeoffed as a marquis;
Forgetting his state he returned, same as fish and birds,
Washing his feet in the Canglang, the hazy waters of autumn.*

Attending to the matter at hand , dealing with this body- mind and this body mind only, sitting living being and relinquishing past and future, unleashing here and there: that is the making of a rice ball, the planting of a field. Because Buddha is real and alive in a single handful of soil, a cup filled with water. In our understanding-*
practice, shu sho i shi nyo, practice and awakening are one, countless sentient beings are displaying the treasure in full view.

The second aspect addressed by this koan is the need *To take care. Take care of the relative. Only through the relative can the absolute be. Don t be drunk with the absolute. Don t be sick with emptiness. Pay attention to weeding, *sewing, planting, watering. Today, it is grocery shopping and commuting and family life. Today, the relative shows the true value of mystical powers.

Concepts, words are manyfold, stitching your day, mending the fabric of reality now, giving yourself to the robe of everyday life is way beyond words of wisdom, way beyond discussions and philosophy.

This koan invites everyone to Plough her/his own field not *somebody elses. Cultivating the empty field.

What is the true world?*
So how do you plough the field of your own practice?
Can you catch yourself at over doing, over thinking?
How to forget one s state and return same ad fish and bird? Does this take a special effort?

What is the true world?*
So how do you plough the field of your own practice?
Can you catch yourself at over doing, over thinking?
How to forget one s state and return same ad fish and bird? Does this take a special effort?

There is only the true world.. only these bones. However, there is also this habit, with no discernible beginning, of trying to step aside from these bones. It is an impossible thing to do, of course, but in the reaching ......heaven and earth seem to separate, and “I” seem born into the world, stranded, as a thing among things. It is a bewilderment, a confusion, a melodrama. It doesn't matter if this confusion is a baseless illusion, and that heaven and earth, and every movement made, are nothing but the life of these bones.... because the suffering experienced all around is real enough to matter. Working with bewilderment in this world, this is the matter at hand. .... there is need to be met.

Maybe it endlessly returns, but the habit of rejecting these bones burns off like mist in just sitting.
Through practicing just sitting, needs are met freely, with no hook, and no melodrama. That is a life well lived, and an aspiration.

Gassho, kojip

Last edited by Daizan; 08-16-2012 at 02:19 PM.

美道 代山 Bido Daizan

As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

Heh, I know that priest Xiushan all to well !
I spin my wheels quite often on What I have to do, how to do it and how well it needs to be done.
I am figuring out I spend/spent more time worrying about doing, than the actual proceeding. Fear is a factor here.
Worried I might miss something/make a mistake so I do not move and yet I still manage to make even more mistakes and miss stuff this way

Sitting is not a cure or an antidote for this just a great view into who wants to run this show.

do what needs done when its met, though I am guilty of making it much more complicated.

Sometimes I see me thinking instead of living, fortunately less than before for example at the age of 20 when I rehashed everything makin me sad. This practice of shikantaza helped me to drop this vicious circle. Maybe it's only now with treeleaf, Taigu and Jundo, others zennies and after years of shikantaza that I begin my new journey. Even if some days I tell me it'd be better to do something else, it helps me to find that being bored or lazy is good for not hoping anything of my sitting, and after sitting I smile telling me I was right to sit feeling better.
I don't know if my answer fits with the post or koan exactly

Getting up in the morning, breakfast and off to work. Zazen at 11:30, Eating, some more work. Taking care of the children,
sometimes sports. Time to prepare dinner. Eat. Some time to hang around, or doing what needs to be done, some reading
or a listening to a dharma talk. Maybe some more zazen. And yes it takes effort, especially getting up in the morning ;-)
_()_
Myoku

My initial (and remaining) reaction to this koan was this lesson: Drop all the talk; DO the work; BE your practice! Whether it be rice balls or scrambled eggs or zazen, or whatever, make it your practice. Too often we get trapped and distracted by words, and in the meantime the true-world passes us by. What is the true world? This world in front of me right now, only seen more clearly and with greater awareness. I surf my practice, going from wave to wave of life, sitting out occasionally, stumbling regularly, balance slowly improving as I challenge myself with bigger and bigger life-waves. A typical stumbling is over thinking, and it is often caught here by Jundo or someone else, for which and whomever I am always grateful. My effort is not special, for if it was then I think I would be overdoing it. if anything, I under do it.

I must confess that I thought of Treeleaf when I read this koan. One of the criticisms of here, I believe, is all talk and no action. You could perhaps rewrite Xiushan's part as a former Treeleafer, someone disillusioned with all the chatter in an online forum as zendo. But that's not fair. Just because someone can't see the work, the practice, does not mean it's not happening. And the chatter can be its own form of work as practice. When we look at a tree we tend to focus on all the leaves, but what we so often miss is the whole ecosystem that is the actual tree: branches, trunk, photosynthesis, bugs, birds, etc. all working together to sustain that tree-life/Treeleaf. Such is us,,, but we get distracted by words and debate, too.

For whatever reason, this koan reminded me that "it's" not just on the cushion. In the words of Chet I believe, "you're soaking in it!"

Gassho

Shugen

Me too Shugen: often we’re caught up in our self-centered lives, our little beliefs and concerns, our own little worlds, king of our own skulls. And because of this, we fail to truly see others, hear others, truly hear what they are saying, what they might be asking – we fail to really be there for and with others. So really, we blind ourselves a little bit with our own concerns, thoughts, ideas, much like Priest Shuzan has done here. Sometimes we can even do this with Buddhist stuff, Buddhist crap, Zen junk. We don’t hear others maybe because we’re thinking Zen stuff, oneness stuff, absolute and relative stuff, even thinking awareness stuff. But when we’re thinking in this way, we’re not open, not present. We can’t hear, as Shuzan can’t, what the other is really saying. And so, maybe a few days after talking to a friend or lover or partner or whoever, we talk to them again and go, “Wait, that’s what you meant by that. I didn’t get that.” And then they inevitably say, “That’s because you weren’t listening.” But what they’re really saying is we weren’t present, we weren’t truly there, right then. So this koan, to me, has something to do with not bringing the cushion into daily life. This priest in this koan hasn’t brought his sitting into everyday life. As soon as he does that, as soon as we all do, we can hear the question, we can answer or not answer appropriately, we can even play back with Jizo. And then we can go make our dinner and not worry about the three worlds.

This koan invites everyone to Plough her/his own field not *somebody elses. Cultivating the empty field.

What is the true world?*
So how do you plough the field of your own practice?
Can you catch yourself at over doing, over thinking?
How to forget one s state and return same ad fish and bird? Does this take a special effort?

I am inspired by Nanyue " It is not that there is no practice-enlightenment, but only that it cannot be defiled" and by the response by the 6th ancestor " This non-defilement is exactly what all the Buddhas and ancestors protect and care for."
It is zazen, and the place in which there is nothing to be defiled or to do defiling.
Carrying this in everyday practice is the challenge and the place of cultivation. Thank you Taigu.
Gassho.

There is only the true world.. only these bones. However, there is also this habit, with no discernible beginning, of trying to step aside from these bones. It is an impossible thing to do, of course, but in the reaching ......heaven and earth seem to separate, and “I” seem born into the world, stranded, as a thing among things. It is a bewilderment, a confusion, a melodrama. It doesn't matter if this confusion is a baseless illusion, and that heaven and earth, and every movement made, are nothing but the life of these bones.... because the suffering experienced all around is real enough to matter. Working with bewilderment in this world, this is the matter at hand. .... there is need to be met.

Maybe it endlessly returns, but the habit of rejecting these bones burns off like mist in just sitting.
Through practicing just sitting, needs are met freely, with no hook, and no melodrama. That is a life well lived, and an aspiration.

Gassho, kojip

Hi Kojip,

I read your post a few days back, did not think that much about it... or wasn’t present enough to appreciated it. Just going over the opening and some of the posts here this morning (Mt time, Utah) and it seems, from my bones here in this recliner (so maybe in this present moment I was ready for your little delight here, because of my mood at this time), you really paint a scene of what is true and very prevalent in most of our lives.

It seems we are always/continuously trying to escape our bodies for some higher metaphysical place, to get some out of body experience, to make the leap from dealing with the life of this world. Some short cut to escape the pain of This reality. Most of us are not that comfortable in this bony situation, and many attempt to escape It, also through drugs, alcohol and food.

Just thought your set up here was superb and ended in a nice soft place within, where we can learn to deal with ordinary daily life and to realize, with the sitting inside this body in zazen, we learn to deal with what is out There, by bringing the two worlds together in being more comfortable and confident in these bones. Thank you, Kojip.

Thank you Taigu and everyone posting here for your take on this case.
After reading all the posts I realize that what I wanted to say has been pretty much already said. However, those are not my words and not my understanding so here goes my version

What is the true world?*

Can't be described, can only be experienced again and again and again.

So how do you plough the field of your own practice?

Not being separate from whatever I'm doing/is happening (not two) at the moment.

Can you catch yourself at over doing, over thinking?

Over thinkg – yes, however zazen is an always present cure for that.

How to forget one s state and return same as fish and bird?
Does this take a special effort?

When you're the plough itself, there's no place for fish and birds to return to.
It does take an effort. Just like shikantaza – catching yourself drift, returning to the moment over and over.

My initial (and remaining) reaction to this koan was this lesson: Drop all the talk; DO the work; BE your practice! Whether it be rice balls or scrambled eggs or zazen, or whatever, make it your practice. Too often we get trapped and distracted by words, and in the meantime the true-world passes us by. What is the true world? This world in front of me right now, only seen more clearly and with greater awareness. I surf my practice, going from wave to wave of life, sitting out occasionally, stumbling regularly, balance slowly improving as I challenge myself with bigger and bigger life-waves. A typical stumbling is over thinking, and it is often caught here by Jundo or someone else, for which and whomever I am always grateful. My effort is not special, for if it was then I think I would be overdoing it. if anything, I under do it.

I must confess that I thought of Treeleaf when I read this koan. One of the criticisms of here, I believe, is all talk and no action. You could perhaps rewrite Xiushan's part as a former Treeleafer, someone disillusioned with all the chatter in an online forum as zendo. But that's not fair. Just because someone can't see the work, the practice, does not mean it's not happening. And the chatter can be its own form of work as practice. When we look at a tree we tend to focus on all the leaves, but what we so often miss is the whole ecosystem that is the actual tree: branches, trunk, photosynthesis, bugs, birds, etc. all working together to sustain that tree-life/Treeleaf. Such is us,,, but we get distracted by words and debate, too.

Hi Alan,

I was just starting to read Zen Mind, Beginners Mind for the second time and got to page 18 on Control, and it reminded me of having some parallel to your second paragraph. As McCartney says, Let It Be. We all need to be reminded of that from time to time. Its seems if we just let things process themselves out, without jumping in and correcting all the time, and leave attempts to control and manipulate alone, things process out and karma is there with the lesson. Control seems to be the egos way to manipulate instead of releasing, and is fear based. Suzuki's simple explanations of `things are very powerful and simple. In this section he also uses Dogens view as an example. I have had a tremendous teacher on this subject, my small self. And its an on going process, but awareness does wonders.

My initial (and remaining) reaction to this koan was this lesson: Drop all the talk; DO the work; BE your practice! Whether it be rice balls or scrambled eggs or zazen, or whatever, make it your practice. Too often we get trapped and distracted by words, and in the meantime the true-world passes us by. What is the true world? This world in front of me right now, only seen more clearly and with greater awareness. I surf my practice, going from wave to wave of life, sitting out occasionally, stumbling regularly, balance slowly improving as I challenge myself with bigger and bigger life-waves. A typical stumbling is over thinking, and it is often caught here by Jundo or someone else, for which and whomever I am always grateful. My effort is not special, for if it was then I think I would be overdoing it. if anything, I under do it.

I must confess that I thought of Treeleaf when I read this koan. One of the criticisms of here, I believe, is all talk and no action. You could perhaps rewrite Xiushan's part as a former Treeleafer, someone disillusioned with all the chatter in an online forum as zendo. But that's not fair. Just because someone can't see the work, the practice, does not mean it's not happening. And the chatter can be its own form of work as practice. When we look at a tree we tend to focus on all the leaves, but what we so often miss is the whole ecosystem that is the actual tree: branches, trunk, photosynthesis, bugs, birds, etc. all working together to sustain that tree-life/Treeleaf. Such is us,,, but we get distracted by words and debate, too.

Alan...... not to beat a DEAD HORSE, but my ego of course, wants to give it one more WACK !! Been having a few of those Freudian pops lately (Chopra case 30), and for the most part they carry some wack`age.... awakening. In case 34 Wick states this (page 107): “One of the 10 grave precepts in Zen is not to elevate oneself and put down others, and another precept is not too speak of others errors and faults”. Later he goes on to say: “When we identify with others, how can we elevate ourselves and put others down? Its only when we create that GAP, that separation which comes from fear (which I referenced in my last post), that we can do it.” And I thank you Alan, for your courageous insight here, as it was no small minded insight.

It seems he is talking about projection here, and in psychology, what we project onto `things/other, it reflects back as more of a lesson for the projector and highlights his or her OWN problem, not the one projected on. Look both ways from the gap, the cut (case 9), one foot in the historical dimension (world of ego, space and time), and one foot in the ultimate dimension (boundless expanse, just touching the earth). In Zen it seems to point to both, as we cannot escape `the world (these bones), but closing the gap to view the historical dimension from the ultimate dimension, from the perspective of no FEAR. {the ultimate dimension being the Way to enlightenment} Thanks to my close friend , Thich Nhat Hanh, for the dimension perceptions.

As I post this, and send it out electronically into the universe, it serves a great lesson to my small minded ego, as a projection (as for all), its time for me to grab a mirror and reflect on this lesson for myself.

Galen wrote: Its seems if we just let things process themselves out, without jumping in and correcting all the time, and leave attempts to control and manipulate alone, things process out and karma is there with the lesson.

I (non)try to do this by letting that gap happen, by not responding right away, by not letting my small self run off with that first thought or impulse when reading on here (and Facebook also). One of the best lessons I have ever learned here is to pause and contemplate, to be mindful of that reaction, to watch it, and more often than not it just goes away. Things settle on their own, both in my head and on here (and on Facebook). The challenge is to also be emotionally honest, so I am still pretty sick when emotional reactions kick in, because it is a whole lot easier to pause on here (and Facebook) than it is in the rest of my day-to-day life. I am a whole lot zennier here than I am in the rest of my life, because the computer allows that gap more so than that irritation in front of me that I can't turn off like a piece of electronics. But I am getting better at that, too, just more slowly.

I must confess that I thought of Treeleaf when I read this koan. One of the criticisms of here, I believe, is all talk and no action. You could perhaps rewrite Xiushan's part as a former Treeleafer, someone disillusioned with all the chatter in an online forum as zendo. But that's not fair. Just because someone can't see the work, the practice, does not mean it's not happening. And the chatter can be its own form of work as practice. When we look at a tree we tend to focus on all the leaves, but what we so often miss is the whole ecosystem that is the actual tree: branches, trunk, photosynthesis, bugs, birds, etc. all working together to sustain that tree-life/Treeleaf. Such is us,,, but we get distracted by words and debate, too.

For me this was fresh.... a perspective I've not thought about and not what first came to mind when reading this koan. Nice!

I (non)try to do this by letting that gap happen, by not responding right away, by not letting my small self run off with that first thought or impulse when reading on here (and Facebook also). One of the best lessons I have ever learned here is to pause and contemplate, to be mindful of that reaction, to watch it, and more often than not it just goes away. Things settle on their own, both in my head and on here (and on Facebook). The challenge is to also be emotionally honest, so I am still pretty sick when emotional reactions kick in, because it is a whole lot easier to pause on here (and Facebook) than it is in the rest of my day-to-day life. I am a whole lot zennier here than I am in the rest of my life, because the computer allows that gap more so than that irritation in front of me that I can't turn off like a piece of electronics. But I am getting better at that, too, just more slowly.

And of course it's all zenny everywhere in its own way.

Thank you,.... well done with the attempt to not react but act, or no action needed after some contemplation. It seems the other side of the coin can play a larger role in that endeavor once it comes from a deep source from within. And that would be the spontaneity of the intuition, or our enlarged Mind of our true nature/Buddha nature. Very deep zazen is the fruit from which to pick. So contemplation in `time (phenomena), and intuition in no-time, are both part of the same coin (gap), each being on the other side of itself. From my childhood I took a great deal of anger `out into the world and have spent a good share of my life softening that. So a lot of that period, which has mostly passed, I reacted out of anger, I was reactionary, and of course many teachings come from that. So as you say, I also try to come from a more subtle thoughtful response, but also to get where that is not so necessary. It seems taking a day or time, in considering a response/no response, also leaves room for so much mental chatter of the ego (monkey mind). But you clear a lot of that up by referencing a non-emotional out burst of such, as you point to. So sometimes it is better to take that `gut shoot (intuition hopefully), and as we get better at going deep within, it pretty much washes out and its not so reactionary, and can and should, be even more enlightening and not so much intellectualizing.

As for what you call the rest of your life, as apposed to online zennierism, as you know that is also a coin, they are different, but they are also the same, or should be. I get your take here and that is true for me also, but in that awareness, the goaless goal is to be fully embracing our true nature no matter where we go or come. 24/7 Zazen, 24/7 awareness of breath from the abdomen. Our good friend Thich Nhat Hanh has been a good teacher for me in this endeavor in his beautiful little heavy weight book NO DEATH, NO FEAR, where he teaches being in touch with our breath (present) in every physical and mental movement throughout our day. Awake meditation, if you will, walking with good posture and breathing in rhythm with our steps (feeling the ground under our feet). When the phone rings, take our time and approach the pickup through breath, that better prepares us for this other awaiting our voice (attempting to breath through our conversation being totally present to better to be one with the caller to soften the dualism that awaits {ego}). I am getting pretty decent at this and that percentage of being more present is growing. So as I sit here, with all my thoughts flying through the air I am doing my best to stay with my abdomen, it brings you back to earth. Also the koan ‘who am I’ an extension of Mu is pretty constant for me in bringing me back inside my body. I picked this up, with many other deep insights, from the beautiful book The Three Pillars of Zen. In that same realm, we could also ask our self, who is this going to the bathroom, who is this sitting down and so on. I am probably not telling you or many others in this assembly, what that does is put us back in the present moment, breath, with the intent for our being in touch once again with our Buddha nature
and this questing the ‘I’ or ‘who’ wakes us up to big Mind and not our little I (ego). This is how I spend my days, I just got up to make a cup of coffee to finish this long winding piece, and as I got out of this chair I went to breath and felt the carpet under my foot and breathed my way to the kitchen. Of course it goes on and on and we get better at it with Practice, isn’t practice what its all about, not only representing sitting practice (which I feel is the most important practice, to make the outer practice much easier, it like steroids if we can get deep enough). So with practicing our days being as present as we can be, becomes who we are, with practice, that is why it is called Practice. Zazen 24/7 (breath), practicing 24/7 until the gap becomes nothing more then a hair and that only closes in the very last level of Enlightenment, once we have crawled off the Ox and grounded, totally immersed in being........ a Master of our own mind.

My initial (and remaining) reaction to this koan was this lesson: Drop all the talk; DO the work; BE your practice! Whether it be rice balls or scrambled eggs or zazen, or whatever, make it your practice. Too often we get trapped and distracted by words, and in the meantime the true-world passes us by. What is the true world? This world in front of me right now, only seen more clearly and with greater awareness. I surf my practice, going from wave to wave of life, sitting out occasionally, stumbling regularly, balance slowly improving as I challenge myself with bigger and bigger life-waves. A typical stumbling is over thinking, and it is often caught here by Jundo or someone else, for which and whomever I am always grateful. My effort is not special, for if it was then I think I would be overdoing it. if anything, I under do it.

I must confess that I thought of Treeleaf when I read this koan. One of the criticisms of here, I believe, is all talk and no action. You could perhaps rewrite Xiushan's part as a former Treeleafer, someone disillusioned with all the chatter in an online forum as zendo. But that's not fair. Just because someone can't see the work, the practice, does not mean it's not happening. And the chatter can be its own form of work as practice. When we look at a tree we tend to focus on all the leaves, but what we so often miss is the whole ecosystem that is the actual tree: branches, trunk, photosynthesis, bugs, birds, etc. all working together to sustain that tree-life/Treeleaf. Such is us,,, but we get distracted by words and debate, too.

I just couldn't resist ! Your delightfully little diddy of... "When we look at a tree we tend to focus on all the leaves, but what we so often miss is the whole ecosystem that is the actual tree: branches, trunk, photosynthesis, bugs, birds, etc. all working together to sustain that tree-life/Treeleaf. Such is us,,, but we get distracted by words and debate, too." This insight touches the core of Thick Nhat Hahn's awake meditation. Your big mind view of seeing much more the what sits right in our face (and the emptiness on the other side of the coin) is what Hahn instills, like when we are eating and being fully present (tv/radio off), while seeing/feeling the labor it took to bring the food from the farm, the transportation to our table, the fertilizer, the rain, the clouds that are all apart of this activity, and keeping us present and grateful.

Actually not that clever. On my Droid virtual keypad, couldn't find the other hand -) and never fixed it from my laptop because as you said you can see the other hand that is not there.

And actually what i did mean with the cleverness, i took it as the one hand clapping koan, as you/your Droid, was symbolizing. Maybe it came accidentally/not accidentally, from the Droid/your unconscious, as a Freudian Slip. Any way can't help myself today, this is where my mind is taking me today, but for some reason it just struck me as being really cool . Obviously you have left it, well done!

I am going to sound old fashioned and pretty stuck. Pausing before action is a great practice.This practice of breath awareness is a great one, it is calming, harmonizing, grounding, in short: a great practice. And not mine anymore. Why is that? Because I am a stuborn son of a b.... And I stick to what Dogen teaches. Breath should be left to breath, Buddha to Buddha, things to things. Planting fields, making rice is not Planting Breath, making breath. Not even Breath planting fields, breath making rice. The ordinary is not a special focus on breath, dishes, moment, present...It is best described by the words of a very wise lady on this forum: because I know my parents, partner, children, world are already dead, I enjoy their company so much ( something like that, I cannot access the link at the moment)...and when I do so, breath is not in the picture. When cooking or washing the dishes, We are not aware of doing something special, focusing in a particular way, We are simply doing what we are doing. When playing with our child, we just play.

And again if that works for you, great! If you feel you are getting this and that and better, great! But again, the whole point of Dogen Zen is not to get or be better. This attitude and expectation belongs precisely to the realm of extensive discussion described in the koan. You see, this is what makes this Dogen thing absolutely incredible. Far beyond any spiritual agenda could fathom. As expressed by a Shingon priest who happens to be my friend: shikantaza is the ultimate practice.

Once when absorbed in the sensation of breath entering the tip of my nose "like a gentle ball of cotton", a teacher said to me... "Don't become a unicorn!".. then crossed his eyes staring at his nose. When practice is impartial, each thing is full. Gassho, kojip.

美道 代山 Bido Daizan

As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

I am going to sound old fashioned and pretty stuck. Pausing before action is a great practice.This practice of breath awareness is a great one, it is calming, harmonizing, grounding, in short: a great practice. And not mine anymore. Why is that? Because I am a stuborn son of a b.... And I stick to what Dogen teaches. Breath should be left to breath, Buddha to Buddha, things to things. Planting fields, making rice is not Planting Breath, making breath. Not even Breath planting fields, breath making rice. The ordinary is not a special focus on breath, dishes, moment, present...It is best described by the words of a very wise lady on this forum: because I know my parents, partner, children, world are already dead, I enjoy their company so much ( something like that, I cannot access the link at the moment)...and when I do so, breath is not in the picture. When cooking or washing the dishes, We are not aware of doing something special, focusing in a particular way, We are simply doing what we are doing. When playing with our child, we just play.

And again if that works for you, great! If you feel you are getting this and that and better, great! But again, the whole point of Dogen Zen is not to get or be better. This attitude and expectation belongs precisely to the realm of extensive discussion described in the koan. You see, this is what makes this Dogen thing absolutely incredible. Far beyond any spiritual agenda could fathom. As expressed by a Shingon priest who happens to be my friend: shikantaza is the ultimate practice.

If you want to get better, fine. Get better. Be in control.

In my clouded eyes, control and intention just get in the way.

Gassho

Taigu

Thank you for this teachable moment, Taigu,

More later in response to your post. My question to you for now is, what is your biggest fear from my posts?

Sitting is the way to clarify the ground of experiences and to rest at ease in your Actual Nature. This is called "the display of the Original Face" and "revealing the landscape of the basic ground".

Drop through this bodymind and you will be far beyond such forms as sitting or lying down. Beyond considerations of good or bad, transcend any divisions between usual people and sages, pass beyond the boundary between sentient beings and Buddha.

Putting aside all concerns, shed all attachments. Do nothing at all. Don’t fabricate any things with the six senses.

Who is this? Its name is unknown; it cannot be called "body", it cannot be called "mind". Trying to think of it, the thought vanishes. Trying to speak of it, words die.

It is like a fool, an idiot. It is as high as a mountain, deep as the ocean. Without peak or depths, its brilliance is unthinkable, it shows itself silently. Between sky and earth, only this whole body is seen.

I don t fear anything, galen. Your practice has a very sound ground and is apparently very beneficial to you. Anapanasati is a beloved teaching. And yet, shikantaza is seen as complete, lacking nothing, dropping all attempt to maintain, control, be the master of one s mind. It is very close to the Maha Ati of the Dzogchen teachings or the final practice of Mahamudra in the tibetan tradition. There is a definitive theravadan flavour to this mindfullness of breathing.

This post was also for other treeleafers. It is all too easy to mix practices . In this case I reommend people not to. In Dogens style, mindfullness is natural and flowing, not made or taylored by the mind. When you do, you simply do.

I don t fear anything, galen. Your practice has a very sound ground and is apparently very beneficial to you. Anapanasati is a beloved teaching. And yet, shikantaza is seen as complete, lacking nothing, dropping all attempt to maintain, control, be the master of one s mind. It is very close to the Maha Ati of the Dzogchen teachings or the final practice of Mahamudra in the tibetan tradition. There is a definitive theravadan flavour to this mindfullness of breathing.

This post was also for other treeleafers. It is all too easy to mix practices . In this case I reommend people not to. In Dogens style, mindfullness is natural and flowing, not made or taylored by the mind. When you do, you simply do.

That s all really.

Take care

Gassho

Taigu

Thank you, Taigu,

I will approach this at a later time and thanks for your trouble in posting this. I have already been to this depth of this type of sitting, at the time under Yagananda 25 years ago, and lost my way some, but am at the gateless gate and am seemingly close to that profoundess, a goaless goal, it is one of the best drugs i have ever done, and that is saying a lot from years past. You speak like i am somewhat clueless on these subjects, even zazen, as i have good understanding and did come from another website before coming here, and maybe some of my postings resemble that, but some of he teachings on here are somewhat in wonderment also, but i like being here, and i am just processing at the speed and time of where i am at this moment, from clear back as far as 1969. More later, appreciate what you and Jundo do here.

Galen, there is nothing profound going on here. all you have to do is sit and be your quite ordinary life. Thank you for sharing and participating.

"What is the true world?*"
A dark murky fog penetrates all.

"So how do you plough the field of your own practice?"
One breath at a time.

"Can you catch yourself at over doing, over thinking?"
All the time.

"How to forget one s state and return same ad fish and bird? Does this take a special effort?"
Its like a pivot but nothing special.

Thank you Rich,

I will leave the 'nothing going on thing' up to your perception of my perception. I am being as only my ordinary self can be, and sitting actually much, everything else falls where it may from there. And I really appreciate your jumping in with me here in the dark murky fog, where no rescue is needed. And thank You for sharing and participating, and I appreciate the fish and bird you have left me .

This started with my post to Alan, and yes it might have been over the top, whatever. From what I see from Alan, he can handle me quite well in his own way. Then Taigu jumps in and miss takes a lot of what I said to suit his framing, which is fine and I really do appreciate, except by how the approach was done and some of what was said. Then in a couple posts, Taigu I and were getting things sorted out and will continue to on our own, but then you jump in, which I do appreciate in its own way, but this is mostly Your perception, there is no one way to anything, so-called profound or not, but I do not see the need here as Taigu and I were doing just fine. Then this no profound thing, fine, but then you post the very nice insightful piece, which could be considered very profound , even though 'theres nothing going on profound here'. Perception, and mirroring, isn't it great to be human Rich, thats profound in and of its self..... Alan was and is just fine, and I am sure he will step up after sitting on some of this, as he does, as seems to do a good job of. So I will post this not-so-profound `thing.....

Control...

"To give your sheep and cow a large, spacious meadow is the way to control them"... that was the opening .... some exerts... "The best way to control people is to encourage them to be mischievous.".... "let them do what they want and watch them, this is the best policy."... "The second worst is to try to control them. The best one is to watch them, just watch them, without trying to control them" ... "How to make this kind of effort is the secret of practice." ...... Suzuki ZMBM

Galen, I didn't mean to be profound. I was just answering the koan questions that taigu offered at the beginning of this thread. Early this morning sitting outside in a dark penetrating fog was the true world. My wife would testify that I am not profound lol.

Galen, I didn't mean to be profound. I was just answering the koan questions that taigu offered at the beginning of this thread. Early this morning sitting outside in a dark penetrating fog was the true world. My wife would testify that I am not profound lol.

and i did not read it as you saying that of yourself. i took it as the 'here' part meaning the whole trealeaf site . thanks for your response back, that meant a lot!

What is the true world?*
So how do you plough the field of your own practice?
Can you catch yourself at over doing, over thinking?
How to forget one s state and return same ad fish and bird? Does this take a special effort?

I've had a cold for the past 2 weeks, so I've just been avoiding this. lol

The true world is this right here, right now, but without all of the filters and assumptions and things we add or take away.

Ploughing the field of my own practice... sitting consistently, doing my best whatever it is I'm doing, questioning things, testing them out on my own and verifying them. Not giving up even though I don't feel ilke practicing. Not running away from things I don't like or trying to grasp things I want. But it all comes down to truly living this practice. These are ingrained habits, so I fail all the time. I just try to notice my frame of mind.. my grasping and pushing away. In some sense, I do practice for peace from this frantic running away. Not peace in the false sense, but a real lasting peace in that I don't run from or try to grab things... just let them be so I can act appropriately.

Yes, I catch myself overdoing and over thinking things a lot. I'm able to think myself out of practice at times. That's why I'm thankful for the Sangha, practice together, Jukai and Ango. It helps keep me centered and not so stuck in my head all the time.

THe "special effort" is more of a letting go, an observing. By acting, it gets me into the same mess of grasping or avoiding. By just letting go, letting things be... letting the "10,000 things confirm us", that's the special effort.

Would you please get your head and practice in the right place and then we can talk: if you want to cook pizza in a Chinese kitchen or play football right in the middle of a baseball game, that does not work.

Would you please get your head and practice in the right place and then we can talk: if you want to cook pizza in a Chinese kitchen or play football right in the middle of a baseball game, that does not work.

Take care.

Gassho

Taigu

Taigu,

Thank you for your deep sincere interest in your and my well being. Everything works. What is there to be fearful of?

A simple thing: I make sure people practice and get the right directions. It is my role as a teacher. See me as a referee. Does that help? makes sense?

galen, Breathing is NOT our practice. No need to pay attention to breath.

That's all. And that's big. And simple too.

Now if you want to do something else, advise people to practice something else...well, this is not the place. Because Jundo and I come from a lineage where BREATHING is just what it is. No more no less.

Now, thank you for being kind with me
and... I have enough.

It means...

Take it or leave it. Breathing is out (and don't you worry, it is taking care of itself).

Please excuse a newbie’s voice here, and I’m not siding with anyone, but: I don’t see why some middle ground can’t be found here. Like: focusing on breath isn’t shikantaza, is not zazen, and is not our practice, but sometimes such a thing can be helpful when, etc (numerous examples: giving a speech at conference; sporting events; even in an argument with someone). Because the thing is this. Sometimes the focus in Zen on “don’t control” can easily become a slippery slope to some (I stress the word "some" here): for instance, if I get angry and I don’t check that anger in some way, some really awful stuff could potentially happen. So, is it control if I “let my anger go” or is it "better" if I “go with the flow” of my anger and punch the dude I want to punch?

I don’t know. I even remember a video from Jundo stating as much, that the breath can be a helpful tool. Not our practice, but sometimes helpful. Maybe I’m wrong and misunderstood.

Again, I don’t know, but this just seems like a pretty obvious place where two people could easily meet in the middle, find some common ground, and then drop it.

Sometimes the focus in Zen on “don’t control” can easily become a slippery slope to some (I stress the word "some" here): for instance, if I get angry and I don’t check that anger in some way, some really awful stuff could potentially happen. So, is it control if I “let my anger go” or is it "better" if I “go with the flow” of my anger and punch the dude I want to punch?

That's why traditionally, we let go of control in the cross legged position!
Have you ever punched someone in the face, sitting full lotus with your hands in your lap..?

Anger sometimes bubbles up in Shikantaza. Some days more and some days less. And we let it. We give it space and let it do whatever it wants (like Suzuki's cows). Let it burn us up completely. No controlling. No judging. No fear. No trying to push it away and force our focus back to "meditation". And when we let anger just be anger in this way, letting it rage freely without trying to put a leash on it, we can sometimes see it for what it is. Just a bubble, coming from nowhere, staying for a while, then naturally dissolving into nothing. Powerless really, when seen for what it truly is and not identified with.

Completely letting go like this, letting anger be anger, breathing be breathing, thoughts be thoughts, not seeking anything, not shutting anything out, letting whatever thought, emotion or sensation appears come into mind, in my opinion, is Shikantaza. So difficult, because it's so easy, so simple. We don't have to try to do anything, just stop meddling with the way body-mind naturally functions. This to me is the gateless gate, the goalless goal, the practiceless practice of no effort.

"What is called sitting-zen, sitting-meditation, is not meditation that is learned. It is the Dharma-gate of effortless ease. It is the practice and experience that gets to the bottom of the Buddha's enlightenment. The laws of the Universe are realized, around which there are no nets or cages. To grasp this meaning is to be like a dragon that has found water, or like a tiger before a mountain stronghold. Remember, true reality spontaneously emerges, and darkness and dissipation vanish at a stroke."

In other situations, when we are tired, stressed out, afraid, frustrated, distracted, unbalanced, run by the monkey mind (and we are not sitting facing the wall in the crossed legged position!), we may find ourselves on the brink of punching somebody in the face, shaking our child, saying something deeply hurtful. In those situations control is necessary, vital even. Just stay your hand and walk away. Practice letting go of control another time!

Gassho,
/Pontus

Last edited by Omoi Otoshi; 08-28-2012 at 09:19 PM.

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

A simple thing: I make sure people practice and get the right directions. It is my role as a teacher. See me as a referee. Does that help? makes sense?

galen, Breathing is NOT our practice. No need to pay attention to breath.

That's all. And that's big. And simple too.

Now if you want to do something else, advise people to practice something else...well, this is not the place. Because Jundo and I come from a lineage where BREATHING is just what it is. No more no less.

Now, thank you for being kind with me
and... I have enough.

It means...

Take it or leave it. Breathing is out (and don't you worry, it is taking care of itself).

Back to Dogen. Back to simplicity, Off with this stuff.

gassho

Taigu

Taigu,

I have you right where I want you, all emotional and losing sleep. You might try breathing into your diaphragm.... ever so slowly. I don't know where you get this fearful rant about breathing, I do not count breaths, use koans or any mantras to sit, and I would put the depth of contemplation up against yours any day. Do you breath while you sit, or do you hold your breath ? You are fearful you are losing control here, control is the issue here and very ego driven! But no worries, one of your little clinger zenners will show up soon and try to bail you out. If you are a teacher, then teach me, with out so much whining and acting like a teenager. Go ahead and kick me off this site, be a man, otherwise I will get back to you in a couple days, meanwhile get some sleep.