Video discussion about Gay Orthodox Jews

Our discussion about gays in the military made me look this up. It was from a Jewish Convert that lives in Israel. He is from my Home state and yet knows both Israeli Hebrew and Yemenite Hebrew. He discusses many issues concerning Jews on You Tube.

Actually My friend did not make this video. But He posted it on his page. Because he Davens in the older Yemenite Hebrew dialect, many Arabs and non Jews think he is Muslim. He talks alot about Israeli religious culture and conflicts as well if anyone is interested.

When we are talking about human sexuality, we are obviously getting into a deep issue. There are obviously people who choose "alternative lifestyles" and there are those that you see from the time they are little children that they seem to posses certain traits that would make you think they may well have homosexual tendencies. It is very difficult to pin down what causes people to be homosexual. How does someone become a foot fetishist, or find oneself attracted to large breasts?Can a man who likes big breasts go to therapy and become "cured" and no longer find them attractive?There was a time in America when sodomy was illegal and people could well go to prison for it. Many gay men married, had children and lived "normal" lives, only to "come out" years later. If you talk to them, they will tell you that they were always miserable being married and often when you probe deep enough, you would find that their marriage was often one of convenience and often sexless.I certainly am in no way promoting homosexual behavior or saying it is kosher or should be pushed on anyone and I know the media has been working overtime to "Normalize" this behavior. The school systems aren't much better with their constantly trying to be more politically correct in their teaching of children sometimes as early as 1st grade and telling them all about gay sex when for the most part, I myself didn't even know what sex was when I was that young. I find this reprehensible.At the same time, It's not as cut and dried as people on both sides of the issue are trying to make it. Each side has it's talking points and we have all already heard them. There is no proof of a "gay gene" there is no proof of the contrary either.I work in corrections and one of my fellow officers is a lesbian. She told me she has always felt attracted to other girls even when she was little and didn't know what sex was and she isn't the only female I have talked to who told me their attraction to the other girls was something they felt from the time they were very small. Was it a choice at that age? I doubt it. Is it often a choice with people today who are basically promiscuous and are open to any kind of sex with anyone anywhere and then simply decide on their own to have homosexual relationships. Yes. I believe in that instance it is a choice. How do you feel about promiscuous heterosexual people? Heterosexual people who chase other men's wives? Are addicted to porn? All of these are issues that society deals with. I have had the opportunity to help and counsel many recovering alcoholics and drug addicts and work with sex addicts. If you think every person who struggles with a sexual perversion is doing it by a personal choice, you are somewhat naive.Many people who were struggling with chemical addiction, turns out had deeper issues, many of them suffering with guilt/depression due to their sexual problems and so on.

Arik you bring up something that I have studied somewhat and would like to know if you guys have read anything on it. Male homosexuality as a practice is strictly forbidden in the most harsh terms in the Torah. If one is struggling with these desires then it seems that to throw oneself on the mercy of Hashem ans seek help from the "elders". This help can be in the form that was presented on the video. It CAN be successful. I know it is painful for those involved, but there is no exception made. The practice of this is addressed and the penalties stated, regardless of the inner desires. A Gay Jew who wants to remain observant and please Hashem MUST seek help or separate themselves in my opinion, based on the arguments in the video. No Mikvah or Davening with other men. No marriage because of the deception for a woman to be married to a gay man. It's like cheating her of a real mate.

Lesbian WOMEN however are another story apparently. There is n mention of them in the Torah. There is no mention of them in the Talmud to my knowledge. I found an article somewhere a while back on the subject and it seemed that there IS a story written by a Rabbi in the middle ages. In those days EVERYONE got married, gay or not. No one admitted to being gay back then. Apparently there was a woman in the Jewish community who was a Lesbian. I cannot remember if she was married or not. She would seduce the other Jewish women in town until the wives would make frequent visits to her. Apparently the Husbands were not satisfying their women lol! The husbands apparently knew what was going on and complained and told the rabbi what was going on. His judgment was that the Men Whip their wives if it happened and that the Wives be set apart for purification and then sent to the Mikvah for uncleanness.

There seems to be a vast difference in the Torah with regards to the treatment of Male Homosexuality and Female Lesbianism. Both seem to be unclean, but One is an abomination and one the other just makes the woman ceremonially unclean.

Philip wrote: . If one is struggling with these desires then it seems that to throw oneself on the mercy of Hashem ans seek help from the "elders". This help can be in the form that was presented on the video. It CAN be successful. I know it is painful for those involved, but there is no exception made. The practice of this is addressed and the penalties stated, regardless of the inner desires. A Gay Jew who wants to remain observant and please Hashem MUST seek help

Well it is somewhat interesting how on one hand you claim people should seek help and in the thread on don't ask, don't tell, you end your post by calling people hateful names which I had to edit from your post. If people come here seeking help or advice they aren't going to seek it from people who are going to humiliate them. The penalties for Lashon Hara are also clearly stated in the Talmud and it takes one out of the World to Come just as fast as anything else. The same goes for Sabbath desecration by the way.

Before I respond to your last post Arik, I need to make something very clear here. I do not hate gays, male or female. My uncle was Gay and his hiding it (unsuccessfully) destroyed his life. It eventually Killed his life with AIDS. He was always my favorite uncle and I loved him very much even after as an adult I figured out what all his secrecy was about. This topic is very personal to me and I suppose to you it is as well.

Yes, I say that an Orthodox Jewish man should get help based on the content and context of the video. Apparently I did not make that clear. The other thread is about America's military organizations and I explained quite clearly why don't ask don't tell should remain in place. It is better than an outright gay ban. The two contexts are TOTALLY Different however ... yes they are about Gays... but the treatment of an Orthodox Jew and a Gentile US Marine are two different scenarios. So YES they sound contradictory but No they are not. One is about a religious Jewish Gay getting help in order to fulfill the mitzvot in an Honest way. The Other is about keeping the morale of a Killing Organization from being affected by sexual behaviors that are not accepted by the majority of the members as being normal or Moral. Do you understand the difference?

Secondly, I was not Condemning anyone with Harsh penalties mentioned in the Torah to be self righteous or cruel. I was merely stating that to build up for a question in the second part of my post which neither you nor anyone else has answered or even mentioned. Why are there Harsh penalties listed in the Torah for Male Homosexuals and the total LACK of mentioning penalties for Lesbian behavior in the Torah. As far as I know the topic of Lesbianism doesn't even come up at all in the Torah. This was a religious question asking WHY this is so. I have never heard any satisfactory answer from any Rabbi. This is not about Lashon Hara or Sabbath desecration. I assume you thought I was being self righteous (or throwing stones to use a Christian phrase) because you mentioned those two items.

As far as Hateful names in my post on the other thread are concerned I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Since you deleted them I have no idea what they were because I don't knowingly call people hateful names and have no memory of writing them. Either my account was hacked and someone added nasty names or they were misspellings or perhaps they were something you and I would disagree on what is being defined as a hateful name. Frankly I am a little shocked at being publicly accused of being hateful... You will have to tell me what names I used.

Yes, I say that an Orthodox Jewish man should get help based on the content and context of the video. Apparently I did not make that clear. The other thread is about America's military organizations and I explained quite clearly why don't ask don't tell should remain in place. It is better than an outright gay ban. The two contexts are TOTALLY Different however ... yes they are about Gays... but the treatment of an Orthodox Jew and a Gentile US Marine are two different scenarios. So YES they sound contradictory but No they are not. One is about a religious Jewish Gay getting help in order to fulfill the mitzvot in an Honest way. The Other is about keeping the morale of a Killing Organization from being affected by sexual behaviors that are not accepted by the majority of the members as being normal or Moral. Do you understand the difference?

Phillip,I am fully aware of the differences between your two posts. I will answer one section of your post and send you a PM concerning what was said in the other thread that i edited out of your post.

I already agreed with you that i think "don't ask, don't tell" is and was a good policy so we are not in disagreement there.I answered your question about lesbianism by providing you with the link above. If you cannot get your answer from there, you may want to ask you rabbi, but I think it provides a good an answer as any.You may ne interested to know that unless I am wrong, and I don;t believe I am, gay and lesbians are allowed to serve openly in the Israeli armed forces and I don't think it is causing their military to fall apart. But that may be for that thread and not here.I often play devil's advocate because that is the best way to boil everything down to where the rubber meets the road so to speak.I asked you several questions that you did not address. Can a person who is attracted to women go to counselling and become a changed person and no longer be a heterosexual? The person in this cartoon of yours, is HE himself a "reformed" gay? How about the person who sent you the link? The cartoon likens sexuality to weight loss. Sorry, but apples and oranges. You claimed people who are gay should not daven with other men. You seem to be under the impression that somehow he will be lusting after the other men during prayer. Sorry but that is baseless. If someone cannot attend a prayer service without having sexual fantasies, that person may well be a sex addict which is not the same thing as homosexuality. You mentioned to me you have attended a non-orthodox shul. Then I take it both men and women pray together. are you saying you cannot be in a place of worship without sexually fantasizing about the women in attendance??The arguments made in that video are no different from any other homophobic talking points. The people on BOTH sides of the issue seem to want to sweep everything with a very wide brush. One says, hey you just need to get help and if you aren't "cured" you just aren't trying hard enough" the other side says: "it just a natural condition, there is no way to control it, just accept it" I think somewhere in the middle is where we find the truth and like I said, it is more complex than people attempt to make it.Check your PM's

Ok I didn't see the Link, I think I have read that one before and it really doesn't give a theory as to the Whys.... so yeah I may have to ask a Rabbi.

I did check my PMs. Concerning my supposed name calling and lashon hara on the other thread, I was speaking from a soldiers perspective, trying to emphasize with what WILL be said and by the troops and already is being said. A unsuccessful literary device. They were not to be my own words and like I said before I do not call people names. You were right to edit it though should anyone think otherwise as you evidently did and get hurt. My writing skills seem to be suffering lately. This is not Lashon Hara as you accused me of.

I guess I should not be surprised the "homophobic" word came up. There is no homophobia in my posts or in the video. I do not fear homosexuality, I oppose it. If that makes people uncomfortable so be it. The term homophobia is a Gay community slur used to discredit those who disagree with their ideology and activism. The implication is fear mongering. Which is really insulting to the opposing view. I love gay people and do have both lesbian and homosexual friends. I also have alcoholic friends. I hate that which these people practice and not the people themselves. I cringe when I hear TRUE homophobia.... because it is not really fear, it is hatred. I think many conflicts

You asked if a person can be changed by counseling? Of course! To bring a homosexual to the hetero side of things is a healing and constructive act. However to change a hetero to homo would be a perversion and destructive act and would not "counseling". I do not give up on people and I do not underestimate Hashem to help these people become healed and fulfilled. One brings a sick person to the doctor to be healed or a car to a mechanic to be repaired... not vice versa. One can Always throw in the towel and give up and said Ahhh leave them alone and let them feel "normal". Not me. I agree with you about the broad strokes on both sides, but I think this video was done in great respect and not homophobic. It was the product of a successful restoration. By the way...Weight loss is at times just as seemingly impossible to change as sexual persuasion for those who try it.

My Shul is irrelevant. People can have sexual fantasies wherever they are and not be a sex addict. The question is the Gay Orthodox Jew.... can there be such a thing? and this video did ask important questions, not talking points and should not be described as homophobic in an attempt to discredit it and the person who made it. Do the Orthodox separate the sexes because they feel women are inferior? No. Should there be a THIRD separation? What about the Mikvahs. These are VALID questions for the Orthodox and they should not be portrayed as being no better than "sexuality racists" for asking them and presenting a possible answer to a difficult situation.

I am glad we cleared some things up via PMs. I hope you do realize I am on your side when we discuss what the Torah permits and does NOT permit. My reason for using the term "homophobe" was that some of the fears brought up in the video from my point of view anyway, seem to reflect a inherent fear. Perhaps using that word wasn't the best choice.The reason I refer to them as talking points is that they have already been said over and over. Both sides use them, their same catch phrases, etc. The video in some cases brings up some very valid points, while at the same time sometimes falling into the cliche' I also have to sometimes be a critic, it's just in my nature So when I see something in a video that I think is weak, I point it out. Weight loss is not the same thing as human sexuality. They both can be difficult to deal with, but I stand by my view that they are two entirely different issues.Likewise, it is unfair I think, to claim I referred to it as homophobia "in order to discredit it" as you said. I am not looking to discredit the video as a whole, simply that some of the points mentioned are deserving of some critique. I think whether or not the person making the video is a "reformed" gay or not is a valid question. It's like if I told someone Dealing with a crack addiction is easy enough to overcome, while I myself have never touched the stuff. I think it would be better if in fact, the program works so well in "rehabilitating" gays, that a "former" gay man should be producing the video no?

The Torah tells us how G-d feels about people who are homosexual, as well as what to do about them. Homiletically, we can learn about lesbians through those commandments.

There are many commandments (both positive and negative) that don't include "woman" in the verbiage. That doesn't mean that they aren't included, it is to teach us other things. And as I said, homiletically, we learn a lot more from a pasuk about a man, than just the topical reference to the "man".

So don't let that get in the way of negative commandment.

Also - we are to treat each other with love and respect - especially if we are trying to enhance or even start the sparks of someones yiddishkeit. R' Yisroel Lipkin Solanter was the master of mussar and started that movement. Mussar means that we can treat each other with respect and love even when we are correcting them.

When it comes to Jews whom are homosexual (c"vs), we have to treat them with a special mussar that shows them that the Torah belongs to them as well, and that the commandments apply to them. We have to be careful not to alienate them, we need to bring them back.

Publishing videos that show the struggles of homosexuality in Judaism is one thing - and obviously it's a struggle for them... but instead of making it look okay and trying to make us feel sorry for them is not the way to fix it.

Read up on Mussar.... act on the mussar and spread it around.. that's the only way that they will come back - Love of Torah through Mussar to them.

--sorry for the long post--

Last edited by Yehudah on Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:49 pm; edited 4 times in total