Like i always say, put Bargs beside a solid, defensive Center and he'll probably, and i say it again, PROBABLY, will be alright. Dirk has Tyson, Garnett had Perk, Bosh has Anthony, so on and so forth. But it doesnt stop there, you need to get a solid SF too SG and PG.

No, he won't be alright. The opposing team will still attack him with an endless onslaught of pick and rolls and continue to get easy scores. Furthermore, now that he's exclusively matched up with opponents who are much faster and more athletic than him, he'll be left in the dust.

i for one am guilty of expecting him to average at least 20pts a game, 5 rebs and 5 asts. But that was my expectation, but im happy as to how he is playing now.

So, you were expecting Year 2 Demar = Kobe in his prime? Yeah, I'd say your expectations were maybe a little, just a touch, too high.... Good grief. If Demar was 20/5/5 he would be one of the elite guards in the league. That would make him the 3rd best rebounding guard in the NBA, #1 in assists among 2-guards, and #9 in scoring. He would arguably be on par with guys like Kobe, Wade, Ginobli. Did people really expect these kinds of numbers?

So, you were expecting Year 2 Demar = Kobe in his prime? Yeah, I'd say your expectations were maybe a little, just a touch, too high.... Good grief. If Demar was 20/5/5 he would be one of the elite guards in the league. That would make him the 3rd best rebounding guard in the NBA, #1 in assists among 2-guards, and #9 in scoring. He would arguably be on par with guys like Kobe, Wade, Ginobli. Did people really expect these kinds of numbers?

Slaw, as a starting 2 in this league, he has been given an exceptionally long leash in terms of taking shots, creating off the dribble, etc, i think he has disappointed.

What level should he be at in terms of stats? What do you think?

I personally think his scoring, rebounding, assists, and 3 pt % should be wayyyyyyy higher. He can't stretch the defense until he learns how to shoot from distance.

No, he won't be alright. The opposing team will still attack him with an endless onslaught of pick and rolls and continue to get easy scores. Furthermore, now that he's exclusively matched up with opponents who are much faster and more athletic than him, he'll be left in the dust.

thats up to the coach then. if Bargs can exploit matchups on offense, Triano should be able to evaluate who to put against opposing scoring bigs. sure there will be instances when bargs will have to defend the opposing scoring big but it happens. what im essentially saying is if they want bargs to remain on this team, they have to make adjustments based on his abilities. i mean for the love of god we all know how a "bad" defender he is, so if the team is going to gripe about it every single time then trade or release the guy. if he's still here, that means they want him to stay, so either get him Patrick Ewing or Alonzo Mourning to coach him on his defense, or switch matchup so he wont be exploited on defense. teams do it all the time. you can see it with kobe, lebron, wade. im not saying theyre not good defenders, but they dont "usually" put your star to guard the other team's star the whole game.

Well, let's be crazy and use Kobe as benchmark. In Kobe's second season he averaged ~15/3/2.5. So, that's the numbers for the greatest player of his generation and arguably the second best 2-guard in the history of basketball. Now, you might say, hey Demar was supposed to Kobe and your Kobe numbers are his second year where he only played off the bench. Okay, let's go for year 3: 20/5/4 in 38 minutes.

Derozan's 16/4/2 (rounding) are acceptable numbers for a second year project guy that has absolutely nothing around him and are right about what I expected. Also, you have to remember that he had a horrible Nov/Dec. Since then, his scoring has been ~18.5-19/game. The assists are an issue but that is a systemic problem with this team.

My expectations for next year? I think he can score more efficiently so I expect his PPG to stay in the 18-19 range. I can live with 4 rebs and 3 assists. Those numbers would make him one of the better two guards in the league. The big issue is will his defence improve. That's the main deficiency in his game and he needs to get better there but to say he has disappointed this year is nonsense.

So, you were expecting Year 2 Demar = Kobe in his prime? Yeah, I'd say your expectations were maybe a little, just a touch, too high.... Good grief. If Demar was 20/5/5 he would be one of the elite guards in the league. That would make him the 3rd best rebounding guard in the NBA, #1 in assists among 2-guards, and #9 in scoring. He would arguably be on par with guys like Kobe, Wade, Ginobli. Did people really expect these kinds of numbers?

hence the word "expect". or maybe i shouldve said "wish" instead. but id rather go with expect.

not really, kobe in his prime was 30/6/7. Wade in his prime was 30/7/5. Kobe in his 2nd year avg. 16/2/3, because Fisher, Fox, Eddie Jones, Van Exel and Shaq were all on that team. But Demar's 2nd year? Only Bargs. Im not saying he should be good or better than Kobe, but given the circumstances, i expected him to do more, much like the expectations everybody has put on Bargs.

If you dont expect the best out of your players, then youre just burying them in the waters of mediocrity. Of course you always expect your players to become the best that they can be, demand is another thing.

did the miami heat fans "expect" dwade to average 24/6/5 in his second year? of course they did. they drafted him 5th overall, in a team which had no clear-cut starting SG except him. Demar's minutes dramatically increased this season from last, from 21mins to 34. so im expecting his number would dramatically increase as well, and 20/5/5 is a bit dramatic. sure, maybe a little bit high too. im just saying he should be doing more, but im happy with his progression.

I agree, you are not directly saying that a steal or block is bad, but you are implying it, when you say that a steal or block does not correlate to good defense, when in fact, it does. Youre not saying its bad, but you dont regard it as a good thing either. I do agree with your statement that getting a steal or block does not constitute being a good defensive player, but if you consistently get blocks and steals then you are a good defensive player. i think thats the word youve been missing. What im trying to instill is that steals and blocks are repertoires of a good defensive player. i dont think its coincidental that Howard has been back to back defensive player of the year and him averaging almost 3 blocks a game. although this award is given via media votes, only good defensive players are chosen as candidates for voting. When Artest won it, he avg a career best 2.1 stls, Wallace avg 2blks per game, and Howard 3 blks per game.

I think we've exhausted out arguments on Bargnani, you say he's a poor defender, i say he's just doesnt have the skill to be a good defender. Does he try, i believe so, but he probably is frustrated too that he doesnt have the ability to defend as people expect him to. Is that a liability? most definitely, but i dont regard it as a reason to crucify him. sad and unfair as it may sound but if they want to keep bargnani on the team, they have to mask his "inability" to defend. anyways, enough of Bargs because this is actually a demar thread.

i think people think demar has been a disappointment because of the expectations that was put on him at the start of the season. when bosh left, it may not be that obvious but the reigns was handed on to bargs and what bargs was to bosh before is what demar is now to bargs. and we all know the expectations everybody put on bargs alongside bosh. as per his natural progression goes in the NBA i dont think he's a disappointment but if you consider the "2nd option" tag, i guess i can see why. i for one am guilty of expecting him to average at least 20pts a game, 5 rebs and 5 asts. But that was my expectation, but im happy as to how he is playing now.

To the shotblocking and steals issue, I don't entirely agree. Just because you consistently get steals or blocks doesn't make you a good defensive player. You can be a bad defensive player and still get blocks and steals. My favourite example is when Michael Williams lead the league in steals when he was with Minnesota (back in the last century). He was a horrible defender who gambled far too much and was often out of position on defense. Same goes for a lot of shotblockers. They want to block a shot so badly they will often be out of position, be faked out too easily, etc. Think of JaVale McGee in the last Washington game. He blocked 4 shots against the Raptors, but otherwise played horrible defense.

Blocks and steals are just like scoring. Scoring, unto itself, is great, because you need to score to win, but just scoring 20 points isn't good enough. You need to know HOW you scored those 20 points. Were they forced? Were they within the offense? Was it efficient? Mike James averaged 20 ppg his last year with the Raptors, but how valuable were those 20 ppg?

As for DeRozan, I think the vast majority of people are pleased with his progress, which can be evidenced by the comments on this thread. That's one of the highlights many people point to in this season. DeRozan and Davis' progression. As I pointed out earlier, this thread was basically a reactionary one because Multipaul was getting upset with all the Bargnani bashing, so he attacked someone he knows is well liked by the fans.

If DeMar was 20/5/5 on O and continued to improve on D, anyone who wanted more would be an unrealistic fool, in my humble opinion.

I think that would be fantastic if he did that. I think the assist numbers would be a little high for him, but I could see him averaging a couple of more points. Maybe 22-5-3 would be his ceiling. On a good team, however, I see him scoring less.

Well, let's be crazy and use Kobe as benchmark. In Kobe's second season he averaged ~15/3/2.5. So, that's the numbers for the greatest player of his generation and arguably the second best 2-guard in the history of basketball. Now, you might say, hey Demar was supposed to Kobe and your Kobe numbers are his second year where he only played off the bench. Okay, let's go for year 3: 20/5/4 in 38 minutes.

Derozan's 16/4/2 (rounding) are acceptable numbers for a second year project guy that has absolutely nothing around him and are right about what I expected. Also, you have to remember that he had a horrible Nov/Dec. Since then, his scoring has been ~18.5-19/game. The assists are an issue but that is a systemic problem with this team.

My expectations for next year? I think he can score more efficiently so I expect his PPG to stay in the 18-19 range. I can live with 4 rebs and 3 assists. Those numbers would make him one of the better two guards in the league. The big issue is will his defence improve. That's the main deficiency in his game and he needs to get better there but to say he has disappointed this year is nonsense.

i think the phrase that killed your argument is "absolutely nothing around him". you are right, there's absolutely nothing around him offense-wise, hence, he should be more assertive in scoring the basketball. Now there is the argument that Bargs is a chucker/volume shooter, but he's only averaging 18 shots a game. lebron is averaging 18 shots and so is wade, meaning you can have to high volume shooters in a team at the same time. i think the shots are there for Demar, either he just doesnt want to take it, or maybe its the coaching staff's fault too.

for next season, im hoping he avgs 20/5/5 but i dont expect him to. just because im expecting the raps to get a scoring PG/SF and a defensive big which will probably give more opportunity for bargs to score. i think this was demar's opportunity to make a mark, even if the raps make him a franchise player next year, i dont think he'll get the same opportunity as this year just because the pieces that the raps will add next season are probably going to eat into his shot attempts.

Well, let's be crazy and use Kobe as benchmark. In Kobe's second season he averaged ~15/3/2.5. So, that's the numbers for the greatest player of his generation and arguably the second best 2-guard in the history of basketball. Now, you might say, hey Demar was supposed to Kobe and your Kobe numbers are his second year where he only played off the bench. Okay, let's go for year 3: 20/5/4 in 38 minutes.

Derozan's 16/4/2 (rounding) are acceptable numbers for a second year project guy that has absolutely nothing around him and are right about what I expected. Also, you have to remember that he had a horrible Nov/Dec. Since then, his scoring has been ~18.5-19/game. The assists are an issue but that is a systemic problem with this team.

My expectations for next year? I think he can score more efficiently so I expect his PPG to stay in the 18-19 range. I can live with 4 rebs and 3 assists. Those numbers would make him one of the better two guards in the league. The big issue is will his defence improve. That's the main deficiency in his game and he needs to get better there but to say he has disappointed this year is nonsense.