Don't tell me, let me guess. You've held a couple of meetings, drank some shandy, made 2 flags and come up with a cunning plan to recycle some foam hands? Genius. That'll get 'em flooding back to the Riverside - keep up the good work.

Does the 12th man even have 12 members? How many people attend the meetings? There's no point half doing something, if you half finished a crap you walk around with a turtles head all your life and the 12th man is currently touching cloth from what I can see.

We always complain that the club dont listen to us. At the minute they are canvassing opinions on whether we want the white band back, in the near future therell be another one with regards to aftergoal music. This comes directly from dialogue with The 12th Man.

Better catering
Redecorated stadium
Half time penalty competition
A non family stand
The development of a couple of bars near the ground
Train station outside the stadium
Less eager stewards with regards to standing
Encouragement to get the crowd singing
Further reductions for young fans
A way of reducing match day tickets without upsetting season ticket holders
A loyalty scheme where your season ticket gets cheaper the longer you have it
Big screens in the stadium

Firstly the twe12thman was not set up as a lobby group for the various issues mentioned above, it was simply set up by fans who wanted to see an improvement in the atmosphere, bring more colour and noise to the Riverside.

The meeting with the club, Southgate included, was instigated by the club, but I can assure that we used the opportunity to raise the points mentioned above and more.

The main point we tried to convey to the club was that the fans felt distant from the club and that greater consultation and a a greater trust was needed. From this we have already seen the fans asked on after goal music and now next years shirt, I realise small things but I think you'll agree it is a start.

I believe there is going to a wide-ranging survey by the club where the fans will be able to put across their personal view points and more specifically the fans are going to be asked on the introduction of a singing section fro next season, where hopefully like minded fans will gather and the stewarding will be less stringent.

How much the Twe12thman succeeds or fails to down purely and simply to you, the fans. If you want to change/ improve the atmosphere then you'll get involved or at least support the group.

Will all these things you suggesting make the team play better or fill the stadium? I doubt it. Most fans dont take to their seats untiul 5 minutes before kick off so a big screen will be a waste of money. then at half time they are in the concourse. no one stays behind to watch the screens. why waste about £1m on fancy screens?

If there was something to watch on the terraces, perhaps people would be there.

You never know unless you try. Would you like to watch great Boro moments before a match?

"Will all these things you suggesting make the team play better or fill the stadium? I doubt it"

Of course they wont make the team play better, but the 12th man can hardly influence that, can they?

Unless of course, these type of things help to improve the matchday experience, help to improve the atmosphere, get people in the mood to encourage the players more, help to increase revenue, which in turn allows us to buy slightly better players.

Then again why bother? In fact why bother trying anything other than whinging and moaning?

It's not the affording of players that is the problem. the problem is getting them here as we refuse to break the wage structure to do it.

We could have afforded to keep Viduka, Zenden, Mills. We refuse to pay what we think is too much. We have yet to be publicly priced out of the market for a realistic signing. What happens is that the demands have gone above what we will pay.

Decorate the stadium, that'll keep us up.
Oh and good luck to the 12th man, at least you're having a go, ignore the likes of the clown who started this thread, he's just bitter about what life's dealt him.

If the 12th man has the ear of the club then we should all be putting ideas forward on here and if they are good ones they can be taken up by the likes of Rob. So here's mine.
1. We have to be realistic about our crowds and allocate one whole end to visiting supporters - this will make it appear that our sections of the ground are full.
2. Put the TV gantry on the opposite side - this will show up our best and fullest stand and will keep the empty seats away from the cameras.
3. We have to make it easy to turn up on the day of the match and stroll in without the fuss of queuing for tickets etc.
4. For non season ticket holders a simple scheme - attend 6 matches and get one free game.
So lets have constructive ideas instead of criticism...

Grantus I'm not having a go, but given that the manager has admitted we don't have significant funds available, do you think that we should spend what we have on 500k television screens or new players?

If the screens go up put a classic boro game on before every home game to get the fans up for it. Put a 70's game on afterwards so the crowd drifts away as many will want to stay and have a pint and wallow in nostalgia.

It's "populated" by a few people who managed to leave Middlesbrough for the first time in their boring lives whilst we were in Europe, seen some stuff, then wanted to bring it back. Sir Walter Raleigh eat your heart out.

Why do you want to feel so close to the football club? Haven't you got anything else in your life?

Why don't you just invite the club round to your house for a cup of tea, some battenberg cake and a game of scrabble? After that, they'll S*** on your brand new laminate flooring, call your blow up doll a slag and then charge for £30 for them turning up.

i find the idea of slagging off people behind a psudonym online quite cringeworthy. Where do you get the idea people are intrested in your opinion?

Watching the boro is boring most of the time, the few who try to make it somewhat more intresteing get shot down.

leave the 12th man alone, its not a lobby group as has been said in this thread..There has been no serious change in atmosphere cause people cant be arsed to create it themselves. This is not the fault of the 12thman or any of its members.

If anything the group is a loose collective of mates who fancing doing something a bit more than turning up pigbaging and dancing to chelsea dagger then leaving.

Although I do not want to sound harsh but the subject of the white band and the dissappreance of the post goal tune are hardly ground-filling decisions. The very fact that you boast about Gareth being involved in a discussion is an indication of how detached the club is from the fans. The club should be coming to you, not vice versa.

Yes what everybody should aim for is to replicate the funereal silence at Old Trafford.Nice one.Anybody having the nerve to want some passion and atmosphere in a football ground should be ridiculed.Brilliant

When I was a kid at Ayresome Park it was the crowd, the noise, the singing that got me hooked as much as the football.Iused to love going to away games for the atmosphere.
Even now when you see the odd Brazilian League match where they are all bouncing up and down or the lunatics in Turkey setting off flares you can see real passion.Premier League grounds are by comparison dead and to have 75000 in a ground in silence is a joke.
Why slag people off for trying to do something about it

Shaun 84 I dont go to meetings, too much on with the wife and kids and Dad etc. The last time I went to the Riverside all the flags were up in the North Stand and so obviously the 12th man is anything but failing. Matchdays are too expensive for me now. I cant justify the ticket prices, but when I am flush I go and I enjoy and I breathe it all in, knickerchat about other Boro fans I dont get into. I want one thing, 15 pound gate entry for adults.

Cant understand why anybody would want to slag the 12th man off. At least theyre trying to do something. I hate music after a goal so at least it was brought to light to the club. I agree its not going to win us matches, but sometimes its the little things that make it S*** such as stewards being over authoritative, Mark Page shutting the F*** up with his S*** record collection before, during and after the game, shocking catering and terrible lager. If the 12th man can change a couple of these things then that makes the whole experience at least that little bit better.

Open the bars in the ground from 12 and heat the concourse. Make it an interesting place with reasonable priced beer. Tv showing games etc. That wont be cheap but people would enjoy spending their money at the ground again.

I was in Dr Browns before a match last season, can't remember which one just enjoying a nice solid bitter, was having a great time. That was until a small, balding chap came up to me and started going on about the 5th man.. and when I told him I wasn't interested he started shouting and screaming in my face about how I wasn't a real fan. Pathetic.

I just think grown adults who go on about banners and noise etc are a bit odd. Each to their own though. I do object to them telling me to sing etc. at the match. If I wanted to sing I'd go on F***ing pop idol.

I can see why the 12th man could be up for slagging just the same way any do-gooder group is a target. It's easy to pick them off as straighty ra ra's. I would not jump at being associated with a group like that. But stop for a minute - it's always easier and cooler to be negative and just have a cheap shot.

Their intentions are good and hearts in the right place to change or avoid a crap atmosphere. You can't knock that. Like working at a small company which isn't always going well - the easy way is to slag it off and whinge like a kid. The harder way is to get involved put your opinion and try to change things or move it more your direction.

All these guys seem to be doing is building a vehicle for you to get involved and express what you want. There's nowt wrong with that if you stop and think about it. If the club are finally listening then go and ask for what you want including more bars, standing area, less music which would overnight boost atmosphere back to old days.

By the way nearly all stadiums here including the crappy suburban rugby league grounds that get max 15,000 have big screens so there must be a way to do it. They are not used for crap bullsh*t before games they are used for replays - goals, fowls, near misses, close ups during the game. It makes the whole live game much better, couldn't really imagine not having it now. Seems dumb not to have it in the PL these days. Maybe a bit of advertising on there pays for it.

It's widely acknowledged that the atmosphere at most grounds is now crap but ask anyone associated with the game and they'll be able to rattle off a list of games that live in the memory for their cracking atmoshpheres.

Take our comebacks against Basle and Steua and the League Cup Semi's as perfect examples of how the Riverside can rock when the occassion warrants it.

Is it really that sad for fans to want to improve the matchday atmosphere that fellow fans have to bitch and moan about their efforts?

Instead of slagging people off, get off your arses and approach the club if you can be bothered.

And before anyone says it, I'm not a member of the 12th man or indeed an activist of any sort but I do know that it's supremely easy to be critical of anyone who has a go.

In Germany you're allowed to take your beer to your seat and drink it while watching the game. If they allowed that at the riverside it would at least improve the pre match atmosphere. At the moment everybody stays in the concourse till the last minute, drinking their drinks.

the atmosphere is crap because of a whole mix of reasons, but none of them are the fault of the paying or non paying supporters. Its getting to the point that the likes of game spoilt oap brats like Man Utd Fergie are slagging their own support, "sing for us" etc. Its like the Russian nobles wanting to see a bear on a chain dance for their amusement.

So you had a meeting with the club and now they're 'consulting' fans over the white band?

Face facts. The club will choose the strip that they feel will provide maximum revunue. They don't give a monkeys chuff what you and you're tiny band of anoraks think. If you believe differently then you're more deluded than the delusionists up the road.

I can not believe some of the negative, utter bollox written on this thread.

I started going to watch Boro from about 6yrs old with my old fella in the Holgate at Ayresome. The football was shyte, but I was instantly hooked on the atmosphere. The shouting, singing, abusing away fans, the fans piling forward when we scored, everything about it had me in awe.

Going to the match now though is pretty boring by comparison. For a start, the football is still shyte, but the atmosphere is dead now aswell. So for me, its more expensive and nowhere near as much fun at it was at Ayresome.

So, if a group of lads (and lasses?) want to try and do something about that, which will make the overall atmosphere and match enjoyment better (even when the match is shyte), then I fully agree with what they're doing and wish them good luck.

I dont go to the meetings, mainly because of work commitments but I do agree that not enough people know about them. I reckon the 12th man people need to get a higher profile if they wanted to attract more 'members'. Maybe get Mark Page and something in the matchday programme to publicise the meetings, get the group mentioned on the 3 leg-ends and on Winter's radio show (a weekly or monthly update from one of the members??), leafets at the ground, something on the t.v.s in the concourse? Stuff like that could raise the profile and increase their numbers from 10/20 to maybe a couple of hundred or so. Who knows.

Nobody has a problem with what their are aiming to achieve HolgateEnd, it's just the way they go about it. They try to tell us how to support our football club and it's just wrong. I will support the team how I want, not how some geeks with nothing else in their miserable lives tell me how to. The threat of physical violence on me by a 12th man member was just priceless.

Judging by some of your posts Be Here Soon I can imagine your general approach to discussion will generate a fair amount of animosity from anybody with an aggressive nature. Try persuasion rather than mockery, you'll get a better response.

But B_H_S, I thought you said your 'attacker' was related to the 5th man, not the 12th man....

Anyway, I'm sure if what you said is true, just about every other person involved with 12th man would be embarrassed by that.

Although if the guy came up to you and said "hi, would you be interested in joining 12th man" and your response was "fook off, you sad, embarrassing little baldy tvvat", I'm not surprised he was upset and in yer face.

Just seems a bit strange that he would react to nothing...

If you dont agree with 12th man, then fair enough, dont bother with it, just ignore them. But dont slag off other people who want to make it more enjoyable and exciting going to the match.