So now we are back to the Polish-Lith Empire which Poland was a jr partner.

Jr Partner? Tell me more. But I like the blame shifting maneuver, though. If I follow this logic then Russia has nothing to do with Soviet crimes, as Stalin was Georgian and the RSFSR was but one of the 15 equal republics. That's 1 to 15 ratio vs 1 to 1

Quote:

Wasn't Kiev part of Lit at one time? Ukraine and Belarus were , until lately part of the USSR. Did they have something against being part of Russia? Why are they now free as are the Baltic States. Seems that many people don't have the same pov as you on the bevolence of Russia.

Kiev was part of a Tausendjariche Reich once, so what? I'm not speaking of benevolence, I'm speaking of the Polish aggression in terms in legality and international relations.

Quote:

Churchill was a realist. He despised Stalin/USSR as few people in the west did, hardly a friend. He only excepted those borders because he had little other chose. For get not that it was he who coined the phrase "Iron Curtain".

Britain approved of this border in 1920 and considered it historically appropriate, urging Lenin to accept it. He lost the gamble, but why should Britain have changed its mind on the historical sovereignty over these lands afterwards?

Jr Partner? Tell me more. But I like the blame shifting maneuver, though. If I follow this logic then Russia has nothing to do with Soviet crimes, as Stalin was Georgian and the RSFSR was but one of the 15 equal republics. That's 1 to 15 ratio vs 1 to 1

Kiev was part of a Tausendjariche Reich once, so what? I'm not speaking of benevolence, I'm speaking of the Polish aggression in terms in legality and international relations.

Britain approved of this border in 1920 and considered it historically appropriate, urging Lenin to accept it. He lost the gamble, but why should Britain have changed its mind on the historical sovereignty over these lands afterwards?

Gents, this thread for discussing the EU (Or giving it a good verbal kicking... ), not for a Bun fight between Russia and Poland.

Perhaps start another thread either here or Russia forum?

Thanks.

__________________Winnie says
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"He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

The EU needs some urgent reforms that is without question and especially the Parliment.

Not everyone dislikes the EU, though many certainly dislike some parts more than others.

From a purely financial viewpoint if the UK left the EU, it would cause economic ruin beyond compare in this country and the accompanying social unrest of mass unemployment and surging prices in almost all items.

From a purely financial viewpoint if the UK left the EU, it would cause economic ruin beyond compare in this country and the accompanying social unrest of mass unemployment and surging prices in almost all items.

This I have to question. As a nation we consume allot of stuff, possibly more than we export. So if the EU was feeling vindictive it could cut us off at the knees, but that would have an effect on the EU's exporters.

It would also scupper any chance of us going back, as no one in the country would ever support the EU again.

Most people I know only have a problem with the EU bureaucracy/government, and are quite partial to the EFTA, and free movement of people.

__________________Winnie says
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"He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

What has Russia ever done for Poland? While Poland has suffer much over it's long history the Russians have been just as bad, perhaps worse than the Prussians in their treatment of Poland. Germany has at least given up on any claims to what is now Poland. The same cannot be said of Russia. Oh and we should not for get that other innocent victim of European history Austria.

I'm not sure Germans have given up claims on Poland. There's a German minority here in Poland which campaigns for 'closer integration' with Germany, even Bi-lingual signage in some areas. I live in Wrocław which used to be a German city, In fact the house I live in used to be owned by a German family until they were forcefully relocated. Many of my older Polish nieghbours said for many years that they feared the territory they live in will be handed back to Germany.

"These guys are appointed by the whims of the individual member states' governments, "

And thats the problem. If I am going to be governed then I want a say in who does the governing. I am not happy to settle for who ever has (expletive deleted) up so much that a British Prime Minister farms him off to Brussels for a couple of years till he thinks hes been forgotten and can be brought back.

The EU began and suprisingly worked when it was purely trade related. The moment poiticians got involved they (expletetive deleted ) it up.

__________________
"Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

I'm not sure Germans have given up claims on Poland. There's a German minority here in Poland which campaigns for 'closer integration' with Germany, even Bi-lingual signage in some areas. I live in Wrocław which used to be a German city, In fact the house I live in used to be owned by a German family until they were forcefully relocated. Many of my older Polish nieghbours said for many years that they feared the territory they live in will be handed back to Germany.

I'm not sure this fear has totally disappeared.

They did in 1990, It was one of the things Germany had to do before they were allowed to be united and Alied ocupation formaly ended. The ireguated property rights on reconquered lands are fault of commie regime from 1945 and Polish democratic politicians since 1989, We can't blame Germans for this like we can't blame HRE for Piast princeps for allowing German colonists in since XIIIc. But back to topic before mods we'll got angry for dereiling the thread. I personaly stoped to worry and learned to love the EU, it's not as great as pre accesion propagand promised but not as monstrous as UPR warned. If not EU with all it's red tape and micromanagment than what? Russia or reborn Habsburg Empire? EU needs constitution draft who can be undertood by literate public and not riged European referundum to legitimise it.

Actually EU was created without UK, and stalled since its adhesion. Go out, the sooner, the better

I was talking about us returning to the fold in later years after we left.

But Lets see, You are happy for us to withdraw, We want to withdraw, however the EU parliament disagrees with us. There's nothing that you or I can do, and that's one of the issues we have with the system.

__________________Winnie says
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"He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

Actually EU was created without UK, and stalled since its adhesion. Go out, the sooner, the better

Yeah, it's all our fault the whole thing is a corrupt, inefficient, dictatorial, bureacratic pile of sh*te. If we weren't in it .. it would run like a smoothly oiled machine with all that French and German efficiency at the helm.

You mean like the Euro? You know that smoothly oiled common currency with all that French and German efficiency at the helm, that the UK isn't even in! Yep, that's a real good example of the EU at its finest, a shining beacon of just how well the continentals can run things

I was talking about us returning to the fold in later years after we left.

But Lets see, You are happy for us to withdraw, We want to withdraw, however the EU parliament disagrees with us. There's nothing that you or I can do, and that's one of the issues we have with the system.

How EU prevent you to withdrawn ? Make a referedum, win it and we'll both follow our path as we wish.