Dinosaurs, can you go create a topic in the Introduction section, and tell us about yourself? Your world views, religious beliefs, background, etc.? It appears that you are not a typical Christian to me...it will help us in understanding where you are coming from in these replies.

In what way am I not typical?

Well, if you are, let us know! Describe your upbringing, and how you came to your beliefs - but not here, do a new thread in the Intro section.

Were you standing there in person when the rocket shot up from the ground and blasted out of our atmosphere? I was in an airplane and I literally saw the space shuttle on its rocket shoot through the cloud bank and scream into space, out of sight. Where in the world was it going?

Just a small point, the Space Shuttle not only did not go to the moon but in fact it only does low earth orbit.

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Anyway, I will be patient for a bit longer and just remind you that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. But we really need to look for those things that are demonstrable, real, and useful. Gods - eh, not very useful. Not to mention they don't really explain anything. When someone say's God did it, they are being completely lazy. They don't care about the truth. They WANT God to be real. There's nothing great about that at all.

While we are on space, Werner von Braun was a "born again". Hardly a lazy and stupid man.

Just a small point, the Space Shuttle not only did not go to the moon but in fact it only does low earth orbit.

While we are on space, Werner von Braun was a "born again". Hardly a lazy and stupid man.

To many peope God is demonstrable, real and useful.

Really? I thought we had a runway on the moon, for the shuttle to land? Man, I need to get out more!

Yes, being born again is nice and all, but if it means he believes that there is a god out there, he is delusional at best on that particular side of his brain.

God being demonstrable to many people is a fun thought, but it in no way actually demonstrates the existence of said god. At best, it demonstrates than many people think a god is real, and useful. Quaint, I suppose.

If he were demonstrable,real and useful NONE of us would be here argueing about it now would we?

Again, in the eyes of the beholder.

To your eyes the solution will come via science. To my eyes we will never have the science. I posted an article yesterday by Paul Davies on pre Big Bang. He says "nothing" so let's pack our bags and go home.

Yes, we get this sort of dialog now and then from some folks. But honestly, it doesn't add value to what science is doing to help us figure stuff out. For that, once we have a reasonable hypothesis about something, we have to remove feeling and imagination and get to the work of finding evidence and facts, testing, proving, and falsifying in order to clear away the clutter, and get to some level of truth, even if it is not exactly right.

Born in Europe or america? If you had read the Koran from an early age would you believe in that form of god? You said you had evidence care to share......Then maybe we can discuss my evidence for bigfoot in an indepth manner

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

How can there be a "higher power" (Deism by the way)? Can't there only be something simpler in nature rather than something more complex going back in time? Every day we are making discoveries about our universe that tells us there are natural processes at work on fundemental level of physics that we can calculate and make very reliable predictions. How can a higher power be predictable in nature!? This logic has never computed with me.

And speaking of logic, I see you are a programmer. What came first and why...Windows 7 or Dos 6.0? Do you think it first took the complexity of Windows 7 to create Dos 6.0? You do see where I'm going with this higher power philosophy right?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 12:28:42 AM by DVZ3 »

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Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

That is no answer,that is using circular logic,again I ask WHAT EVIDENCE are you speaking of ?is it measurable?

I would not call it measurable in the sense you are looking for but it must be for me otherwise I would not hold the belief.

Consider for a moment various major news items. Could be war in Iraq, whatever you like. Different people will all have the same evidence but their views will be different. I would even expect atheists to form different views even though they have the same evidence.

Can you give me one piece of evidence that means this whole show got itself going all by itself. And don't do the usual.....No but I know there was no being or beings involved...

It is demomnstrated to the person who believes it is demonstrated. It is really that simple.

It was demonstrated to Joseph Smith some years ago,why are you not a Mormon.......he is as believable as any current updated censored version of any of the bibles out there.......I also am adept at using circular logic

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Born in Europe or america? If you had read the Koran from an early age would you believe in that form of god? You said you had evidence care to share......Then maybe we can discuss my evidence for bigfoot in an indepth manner

That is no answer,that is using circular logic,again I ask WHAT EVIDENCE are you speaking of ?is it measurable?

I would not call it measurable in the sense you are looking for but it must be for me otherwise I would not hold the belief.

Consider for a moment various major news items. Could be war in Iraq, whatever you like. Different people will all have the same evidence but their views will be different. I would even expect atheists to form different views even though they have the same evidence.

Can you give me one piece of evidence that means this whole show got itself going all by itself. And don't do the usual.....No but I know there was no being or beings involved...

Give me the evidence.

Atheists don't know how it got started with the exception of the big bang. But prior to that, we just don;t know. No one does. Except, of course, the theists! Instead of being honest, they use their "feelings" to decide that there must be a god, or a higher power at the helm. It just feels right...but it explains nothing. See the difference?

That is no answer,that is using circular logic,again I ask WHAT EVIDENCE are you speaking of ?is it measurable?

I would not call it measurable in the sense you are looking for but it must be for me otherwise I would not hold the belief.

Consider for a moment various major news items. Could be war in Iraq, whatever you like. Different people will all have the same evidence but their views will be different. I would even expect atheists to form different views even though they have the same evidence.

Can you give me one piece of evidence that means this whole show got itself going all by itself. And don't do the usual.....No but I know there was no being or beings involved...

Give me the evidence.

The Raven discovered my people on a Naikoon beach hiding inside a clamshell about 12,000 years ago. The "story" has been passed down since the "dawn of time". That is how I know you are worshipping a false diety

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

It was demonstrated to Joseph Smith some years ago,why are you not a Mormon.......he is as believable as any current updated censored version of any of the bibles out there.......I also am adept at using circular logic[/quote]

But I have already said the Bible has been a phase for me at different times. Also, my phases with the Bible are Old Testament so I am not Christian in that sense.

Every day we are making discoveries about our universe that tells us there are natural processes at work on fundemental level of physics that we can calculate and make very reliable predictions.

And just think for a moment. Science has gone from Steady State to Big Bang....so science has introduced a beginning....and as well can't go pre Big Bang.

Science goes as far as it can go with the technology of its era and makes theories based on this data. It was shown in 1929 by Hubble that the steady state universe was completely wrong and changed cosmology virtually overnight. What Hubble showed is that galaxies were moving away from eacth other. And rolling back time all the matter in the universe must have been closer together. Makes sense right!?

Now, what we don't know and are able humbly admit is that we don't know what was pre big bang and was started it all. But science certainly doesn't take the smug, arrogant position like christians making extrodinary claims with perfect confidence. You can see the difference right...?

But thanks for taking the ignorant stance that we will never know more tomorrow than we do today. Nice. This was proven wrong not only yesterday, but again today. How many more days do you want to stick with that type of mindset?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 12:35:41 AM by DVZ3 »

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Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

what solution do you think I am thinking,where science has the answer? In your bio you did not state GOD ,just a higher power

I did say at the moment I am putting more store in the Bible which hence means God but it is also a phase I have been through before.

But the "higher power" has been my view for most of my adult life except from about age 20 to 32 or so.

I see the "higher power" belief as stemming from a lack of available knowledge. I've thought about this one a lot lately so bear with me..

On one side, say... the far right side... you have the hard core believer. Usually this believer has at best a rudamentary knowledge about science and the way it works. When this is the case, it is easy to believe in a "higher power" because there are so many unanswered questions.

On the other side, say... the far left side... you have the atheist. Many times, this atheist is someone who knows a LOT about science and the way it works. This leads to having many fewer questions about the universe because they have studied the answers that scientists have been able to provide and find their arguments convincing.

Nearer to the middle of the line is where a lot of people sit. They have lots of questions but they also have lots of answers. As time passes and more people have access to higher learning and with the internet going full swing, I think there will be a continued trend away from religion.

Now, for me, there was a time when I wasn't too interested in any of this stuff. I didn't care about religion at all, and science was cool but not a big draw for my free time. During that time, for all intents and purposes, I sat the middle of the line. But once I studied the religious question more, and realized that Christianity was just a big lie, then it was like the flood gates opened up and I wanted to know as much as I possibly could about the universe. I started to swing toward the left of the line.

At some point in that process, I realized that religion was a convenient answer people gave when they couldn't accept the term "I don't know". It suddenly occured to me that all the questions I didn't have the answers to, were just questions that science had not fully been able to work out yet. That everything really should be considered natural until evidence presents itself to think otherwise about anything. Could the universe have been created naturally? Yep. Could we really just be evolved species of animal? Hell yep. So here I sit on the far left of that line.

I have no problem with the idea of a higher power. I do not believe it's true, but I hold out for more evidence before making final judgement. It's fine for me because usually people who believe like that aren't going to tell me I need to believe it, or tell my kids to believe it, or try to make government policy around it, etc.

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Atheists don't know how it got started with the exception of the big bang.

Do you agree that Big Bang gave it a beginning? And does Big Bang only apply to our universe?

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But prior to that, we just don;t know. No one does. Except, of course, the theists! Instead of being honest, they use their "feelings" to decide that there must be a god, or a higher power at the helm. It just feels right...but it explains nothing. See the difference?

Because a being or beings is the logical solution.

And we obviously have no idea what such a being or beings would be like. Perhaps they are part of the "physics" that operates pre Big Bang or perhaps in some master type universe.

What I feel very sure of is the solution is not available from whatever can be gathered in our universe.

And thanks for avoiding the tough question about your philosophy, I'll post it again...

"And speaking of logic, I see you are a programmer. What came first and why...Windows 7 or Dos 6.0? Do you think it first took the complexity of Windows 7 to create Dos 6.0? You do see where I'm going with this higher power philosophy right?"

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Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."