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Re: MTGO discussion

Got my quote from MTGO Traders and will probably be selling out of Magic Online this week. It's less about the recent payout changes (that I still didn't look too deep into) and more about the state of Legacy. Magic Online always used to be a way for me to work on metagames, draw experience and prepare for big events. With the current state of Legacy, that feels like the worst the format has ever been, I see no point in working on it anymore.

For now. I hope things are gonna change later this year; both with regards to Legacy AND Magic Online prize structure.

The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

Re: MTGO discussion

For now. I hope things are gonna change later this year; both with regards to Legacy AND Magic Online prize structure.

The format might change if Erik Lauer gets off his ass, although I doubt it.

MTGO is ship that has sailed to me. I hoped Lee Sharpe would change things for the better, but time and time again, he made things only worse. And don't get me started on Robert Schuster and his choices of MOCS promos.

Doing the math, I made a healthy 2350$ profit after 2 years of MTGO because I didn't cave in to bullshit value wasters like 2-mans or 8-mans. Trust me when I'm saying that the new payout change is moneywasting incarnate, which completely undermines the purpose of building up a collection. And the future is only going to be worse. That's why I quit, aside from Legacy being stale as a fart right now.

Re: MTGO discussion

Got my quote from MTGO Traders and will probably be selling out of Magic Online this week.

Reading that was a surprise! Are you giving up streaming or changing to Pauper, Cockatrice?

Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

So here are the reasons I got out:
1. Lack of security/authentication.
3. Magic isn't as fun when you're not sitting across from someone.

I would agree with these. I only play pauper but has been thinking about buying Legacy cards just because of the difficultly in getting/finding paper events. All these changes combined with the above mean I am defiantly staying away.

Re: MTGO discussion

Just got a few quotes the past 24 hours, and sold off my collection today to Cardhoarder, who were a few hundred dollars higher than MTGOTraders in this instance, and awesome to work with. Now $7800 richer.

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by Julian23

Got my quote from MTGO Traders and will probably be selling out of Magic Online this week. It's less about the recent payout changes (that I still didn't look too deep into) and more about the state of Legacy. Magic Online always used to be a way for me to work on metagames, draw experience and prepare for big events. With the current state of Legacy, that feels like the worst the format has ever been, I see no point in working on it anymore.

For now. I hope things are gonna change later this year; both with regards to Legacy AND Magic Online prize structure.

Does this mean if you enjoyed playing Legacy you wouldn’t be selling out of MTGO?

Re: MTGO discussion

If I deeply enjoyed the current state of Legacy right now, I wouldn't mind playing MODO being (slightly) -EV moneywise. Streaming is a ton of fun and the experience you get from playing online helps you out a lot; that's totally worth something. How much? I don't actually know. The general consensus seems to be that it's not worthwhile after the most recent change. I don't know if that's true, but I also don't worry about it right now anymore.

The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

Re: MTGO discussion

I don't understand Legacy/Vintage players who play on MTGO. I really don't.

Here are some of the reasons I believe people play MTGO and my response to them:

- Playing for prizes: Prizes from winning events on MTGO are basically like working for $8-10/hour if you consider all of the time investment and opportunity cost involved. Would you work for $8-10/hour if there wasn't some other reason for doing so (i.e. having alot of fun)?

- Playing for fun: You can have some fun playing online, but to me, the most fun I've ever had playing Magic was just straight-up, in-person. Nothing digital can compare to the fun of playing in real tournaments against people you can actually talk to and observe while playing. And the camaraderie of playing with a big group of Magic players is something that you can't ever experience online. So if you're playing for "fun", you're basically just playing an inferior version of the paper game. In fact, I would have more fun playing Type 2 at a local FNM than playing Legacy on MTGO if we're talking purely about "fun". There is really no reason not to just play the actual cardboard game instead of MTGO for this particular reason. If you want to have fun, instead of playing MTGO you'd probably be better suited just searching your local town for shops that support the game, and building a deck for whatever format is most popular there, whether that is Legacy or not.

- Playing to test for paper events: This brings me to the #1 reason why anyone should ever play Magic online. It is helpful to test decks and test strategies in a faster digital format if you don't have a big playtesting group near you. I am fully behind using digital Magic to play-test for events and to just get a better understanding of the game itself! But is MTGO the right platform to do this? First, it costs a non-trivial amount of money to buy in. I can play-test ANY card I want for free using Cockatrice and/or XMage instead. Of course, there are no prizes on those platforms, but again, is that really what you want to be doing with your time - grinding Dailies for what amounts to $8-$10/hour? Yes, I need to invest time into play-testing on Cockatrice/XMage as well, but I can invest as little or as much as I want, and I am not bound to any tournament time structure as I am on MTGO, and any card I want to test I have access to immediately. Maybe you can make the claim that people on those platforms are less skilled than the ones on MTGO, but as someone who has played competitively on all the free platforms, on MTGO, AND in large in-person tournaments, I would dispute that claim by saying that there is a bell-shaped curve of Magic skill at EVERY outlet for players, whether it's MTGO, Cockatrice, XMage, FNMs, SCG Opens, or Pro Tours. If you find enough people on the upper end of the curve to test against, and watch for them when they are on the servers, you can be ensured quality opponents even on the free platforms.

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by MGB

Here are some of the reasons I believe people play MTGO and my response to them:

- Playing for fun: You can have some fun playing online, but to me, the most fun I've ever had playing Magic was just straight-up, in-person. Nothing digital can compare to the fun of playing in real tournaments against people you can actually talk to and observe while playing. And the camaraderie of playing with a big group of Magic players is something that you can't ever experience online. So if you're playing for "fun", you're basically just playing an inferior version of the paper game. In fact, I would have more fun playing Type 2 at a local FNM than playing Legacy on MTGO if we're talking purely about "fun". There is really no reason not to just play the actual cardboard game instead of MTGO for this particular reason.

As someone who has 3762 games of Solitaire logged, I have to say that, price barrier aside, MODO would provide endless entertainment.

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by MGB

- Playing for prizes: Prizes from winning events on MTGO are basically like working for $8-10/hour if you consider all of the time investment and opportunity cost involved. Would you work for $8-10/hour if there wasn't some other reason for doing so (i.e. having alot of fun)?

Having fun AND getting paid for it is quite a good deal, actually. If you don't enjoy yourself, you'd be slaving away. That's why I don't see a point in playing on MTGO anymore since one of the core aspects, playing competitively while slowly increasing your collection, is completely gone with the change.

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by MGB

- Playing for fun: You can have some fun playing online, but to me, the most fun I've ever had playing Magic was just straight-up, in-person. Nothing digital can compare to the fun of playing in real tournaments against people you can actually talk to and observe while playing. And the camaraderie of playing with a big group of Magic players is something that you can't ever experience online. So if you're playing for "fun", you're basically just playing an inferior version of the paper game. In fact, I would have more fun playing Type 2 at a local FNM than playing Legacy on MTGO if we're talking purely about "fun". There is really no reason not to just play the actual cardboard game instead of MTGO for this particular reason. If you want to have fun, instead of playing MTGO you'd probably be better suited just searching your local town for shops that support the game, and building a deck for whatever format is most popular there, whether that is Legacy or not.

I love being able to boot up mtgo at 10pm and play a couple matches of vintage against real decks. I'm not able to do that anywhere else and playing weekly standard in some shop with a bunch of neckbeards and teenagers is not even a comparison. That may be fun for you but it sounds like hell to me.

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by Barook

Having fun AND getting paid for it is quite a good deal, actually. If you don't enjoy yourself, you'd be slaving away. That's why I don't see a point in playing on MTGO anymore since one of the core aspects, playing competitively while slowly increasing your collection, is completely gone with the change.

This.

I have only ~2 legacy events a year locally and itch to play legacy. Cockatrice is ok for being free but it crashes a lot and you have so many bad opponents with janky decks when they arent required to put up entry fee, mtgo dailies at least had some competition. If the dailies dont fire after these new changes I have no reason to keep legacy deck on mtgo.

As for playing other formats like modern/standard, why would I spend my time on something I dont enjoy?

Re: MTGO discussion

The instant accessibility of competitive matches used to be a big perk of Magic Online. But especially for Europeans, the more-or-less recent rescheduling of Daily Events, including the big catastrophe of last winter, has made it continuously less and less exciting. On the weekend, we have NO Legacy Daily Event between 6am and 4pm.

The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by dsck

This.

I have only ~2 legacy events a year locally and itch to play legacy. Cockatrice is ok for being free but it crashes a lot and you have so many bad opponents with janky decks when they arent required to put up entry fee, mtgo dailies at least had some competition. If the dailies dont fire after these new changes I have no reason to keep legacy deck on mtgo.

As for playing other formats like modern/standard, why would I spend my time on something I dont enjoy?

For the record, you can find quality opponents on Cockatrice/XMage, add them to "buddy list" or just monitor when they're online, and play competitive matches against good decks regularly. I have yet to find significantly better competition in MTGO dailies than the players I play against on the free platforms, as long as I ignore the "unregistered" users and the ones who just clearly aren't playing a real deck.

Of course, every once in a while if you play randoms on the free platforms you'll find someone playing a non-competitive deck, but in that situation just leave and find a new game. If you're up against someone with an inferior deck in a Daily event or an 8-man, you have to play it out if you want to move on to the better competition.

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by MGB

For the record, you can find quality opponents on Cockatrice/XMage, add them to "buddy list" or just monitor when they're online, and play competitive matches against good decks regularly. I have yet to find significantly better competition in MTGO dailies than the players I play against on the free platforms, as long as I ignore the "unregistered" users and the ones who just clearly aren't playing a real deck.

While there are more quality players using Cockatrice than commonly advertized, it's still not amazing. Right now I have four "buddies" and almost a hundred on my blacklist after a third of a year of this account's activation. Even assuming both programs' users are equally lousy, there is a certain satisfaction to be gained by playing in a "competitive" event as opposed to bullshitting it for a few hours. Even if all that "competition" amounts to is bragging rights and nominal monetary compensation.

In other news, speaking of Cock.de and bragging rights with nominal monetary compensation for time and effort, if I did start up a little Source-based tournament with some prize support, how many people would be willing to play it out?

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

While there are more quality players using Cockatrice than commonly advertized, it's still not amazing. Right now I have four "buddies" and almost a hundred on my blacklist after a third of a year of this account's activation. Even assuming both programs' users are equally lousy, there is a certain satisfaction to be gained by playing in a "competitive" event as opposed to bullshitting it for a few hours. Even if all that "competition" amounts to is bragging rights and nominal monetary compensation.

I think if you go into such a thing with a preconceived mindset that "it's a free program so everyone here must be a bum with a bad deck" you will be able to more easily focus on the negatives and reinforce your preconceived notion. If you do run into say, 1-2 bad players playing bad decks for every 8-9 that are good playing competitive decks, it is easy for your mind to then just fixate on that one scrub playing BW Clerics as an emblem to represent the platform rather than look at all the competitive matches you had against solid players.

I understand the argument that Daily Event prize support will naturally lead to more competitive play because there are things on the line, but I think it's overstated. Digital booster packs really are not a high-value proposition for anyone who is not poor, and I'd like to think that most Legacy players are mature adults with respectable incomes who don't fight tooth-and-nail only if digital booster packs are involved. If you are a truly competitive player, you play to win just because it is what you do. I have a job as a programmer and make more money in a given hour than I ever could playing Magic for an hour for any kind of competitive stakes (maybe barring the top 8 of a Pro Tour or Grand Prix or any big event), so the notion that a few digital booster packs hanging in the balance will increase my focus and attention on a game of Legacy is probably flawed, because I certainly don't play Legacy for money (and I doubt most people do) more so than I do just because I enjoy the format and I'm a competitive person by nature, even if a nominal amount of money is at stake or it isn't.

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

In other news, speaking of Cock.de and bragging rights with nominal monetary compensation for time and effort, if I did start up a little Source-based tournament with some prize support, how many people would be willing to play it out?

Hmmm...I was thinking we do a monthly tournament for forum members. Didn't think about prize support. Thought it'd be a free one for bragging rights mainly. But one with some prize support is probably welcome too. At least I'm down for it. I'll start a separate thread for this to gauge interest.

Originally Posted by Lysandros

I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.

In regards to Legacy:

Originally Posted by GrimoirePath

I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

Re: MTGO discussion

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Hmmm...I was thinking we do a monthly tournament for forum members. Didn't think about prize support. Thought it'd be a free one for bragging rights mainly. But one with some prize support is probably welcome too. At least I'm down for it. I'll start a separate thread for this to gauge interest.

Oh, no, totally for free, but I'd put up prizes to make it worth people's time.

Re: MTGO discussion

I sold out this morning. MTGO will exist only for the rare times I will want limited practice and schedules absolutely cannot line up with friends.

After playing from 1993-2000 and getting my collection stolen, I came back around Theros. I played MTGO to get better, to play the Legacy decks I bought into, to practice limited for GPs, and for the chance to play Vintage (which happened almost exactly one year ago). In that year, I have seen too many bad signs and too many money grabs by the company. Six bucks was a reasonable amount to pay, IMO. 12 bucks isn't. I'll just goldfish my paper Legacy decks against each other for that type of deal.

I feel the prize support increase (even for 2 man and 8 man) will actually decrease the EV for every player over time. Since it is clear that MTGO is not for the average player like me (truthfully, I don't have the time in my life and came back too late to ever really satisfy any spike dreams I have), I think the EV for the better players, the pros and the grinders will decrease over time since the pool of players with now have such a large percentage of people with similar skill levels. Since MTGO is a necessary evil for those people, I expect more consortium accounts and even less reasons for the new player or the average player to try their hand at MTGO. The Pros need schleps like me to keep their win percentages up in order to continue their success. But, with few Vintage tourneys each week and another kick to gut of Legacy players with this announcement, I decided that enough was enough and I could not risk even more bad news in the future. Plus, I am an Eastern Tme Zone American, so I even had the "good" times.

Instead of really trying to entice new players to help with pack price problem, they decided on something that will make it harder to sell out in the future and has no real value. At least the fake digital copies that I didn't even really own had a market value placed on them due to demand. I expect the price of packs and staples to increase in the short term to make the people who stay feel pretty good. I also see an uncertain future around a client and a economy for MTGO that has a large uphill battle to face when trying to obtain more customers. With a future this uncertain, my gut told me to bail.

I'm no marketing genius and I do not have great answers, but there should have been better ideas than what we got yesterday. Perhaps new players could opt for a subscription system that allowed them access to all the cards they wanted. I don't know how to meld that type of idea with the current player base, but doubling the price for an inferior product is just short-sighted. They could have tried something useful like improving the product to entice new players. Oh well.

Re: MTGO discussion

It seems like a lot of you are missing the point. MTGO had the same problem as cockatrice in that you'll always get a bunch of random players testing new ideas. Sometimes it's fun to test against a mono red control deck in legacy, but often I just want to get away from that and get some good testing in. When you play for 2 event tickets ($2 equivalent) it weeds out the new playtesting idea decks and 100% of the time in my experience you play against an actual good deck. Whether the player is bad doesn't really matter, and I found MTGO players in vintage at least to be more experienced than in real life games.

The other point is that MTGO enforces the obscure rules you wouldn't necessarily remember and cockatrice doesn't. For a Source tournament, that shouldn't be an issue, but I don't want to spend my nice quiet night at home trying to explain stack trigger order to someone when it could all just be done for me. MTGO was pretty great at that too.

To address the "why would you play this at all" it was mostly because I just really liked Legacy (notice the "ed" at the end of that) for a long time and don't have a lot of opportunity to play it without driving a few hours. Prize support made it feel more fun because something was on the line, but of course I didn't really care or expect it to make me money like a job.

But yeah, I sold everything. I don't think Legacy is in a fun place and don't intend to play it until that changes. Vintage has even gotten rather boring to me, due to Monastery Mentor + 5 delve spells. That's a discussion for another thread, but to all of those "if you don't like it stop playing" in those threads I'm going to just agree with you.

Originally Posted by Nick "Tasteless" Plott

It's a trend on the internet, the internet has just become more and more of an unpleasant place. It's become more and more of bitching on forums, and I'm from that really early internet generation where it's just small communities giving each other advice and reasonable dialogue, and it's kind of just devolved into this ugly, ugly thing. I mean, it's too bad you can't be paid to be, you know, a chicken shit fuckin' whiny bitch on the internet or we'd have a lot of rich community members