I understand that these IDEs are tools. I also understand that a programmer is much more than that IDE, has to be able to solve problems, and all that. I'm not suggesting that an IDE will make someone better, though it might make the more productive.

But, When you get to really understanding what's going on in your application, which will be best? I always feel like VS is insulating me way too much, but I think that is just a perception. Eclipse "feels" more, I don't know, close to the language?

I am aware of Petzold's old 2005 article. I don't care much for it.

If I'm not programming in C++, C, or Assembly, do Eclipse and/or Visual Studio, keep me too insulated? Are they both about the same on this note?

By "better" I mean understand more about what's really going on under the hood. Then again, how far can that go? Do I have to write a compiler in C to feel like a real programmers? Mine my own ore to build the PC? Get silicone?

I don't think either really coddles you as much as you're saying unless you're using VSes xaml editor or something.

The most important thing they do is stop you from having to go look up the name of that function you made five weeks ago. I like VS personally. They're express editions are pretty slick. But that's in large part because it's what I work with.

If you are developing on Windows for Windows on any of Visual Studio's languages, then Visual Studio will be the better experience.

If you are developing Java applications then Eclipse will be the better experience.

Both of those scenarios offer great things. Both of those combinations offer ways to edit-and-continue when debugging, making changes to your program without stopping execution. Both of those combinations allow you to debug deeply into issues; either all the way down into the OS for VS/Windows, or all the way into the Java virtual machine with Java/Eclipse.

Neither will make you "better". Some people even think that IDE's hinder learning, and say that you should begin programming in a terminal. That is kind of overkill though. If you want to be a better programmer just make sure you understand what is happening in your code, and research it if you don't.

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By "better" I mean understand more about what's really going on under the hood. Then again, how far can that go? Do I have to write a compiler in C to feel like a real programmers? Mine my own ore to build the PC? Get silicone?

Do you really care? You don't need to be a great mechanic to be a great driver. You don't need to be a luthier to be a guitarist.

There's nothing wrong with learning low-level stuff and it certainly won't hurt, but it's not necessarily what you're looking to do.

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If you're looking to learn about WHY the code works, then you need to go into a much deeper dive into the inner workings of the OS and computer architectures. On windows, you're best bet is that you'll learn by something telling you how/why it works, unless you work at MS, then you'll -know- how/why it works. For Linux, there is stuff like LFS, which you'll be able to learn and know how/why your OS works.

Will learning that make you a better developer? Maybe. It all depends on what you're doing. Almost all of that is too much info for a business app developer. But if you're doing interesting things with your computer, or chasing some really nasty bug, then that info can become invaluable and a huge time saver.

C#, F#, VB and many others all run on the same platform, its actually pretty awesome. MS Libraries are not a "problem", they actually have a much better standard to Java libraries, I've seen null parameters for a constructor expected in Java libs, had me going around in circles.

C#, F#, VB and many others all run on the same platform, its actually pretty awesome. MS Libraries are not a "problem", they actually have a much better standard to Java libraries, I've seen null parameters for a constructor expected in Java libs, had me going around in circles.

Say that when trying to adapt your program for a Mac or Linux platform.

Don't get me started on the workarounds that kill the program's performance .

BTW under the fine print, Micro$oft does ** NOT ** allow you to resell closed source Visual Studio programs without a license.

Say that when trying to adapt your program for a Mac or Linux platform.

Don't get me started on the workarounds that kill the program's performance .

BTW under the fine print, Micro$oft does ** NOT ** allow you to resell closed source Visual Studio programs without a license.

Given your continued use of dollar signs when referring to Microsoft, your hilarious bias and inaccurate information shouldn't be surprising. Perhaps you should re-read those EULAs and stop spreading FUD.

BTW under the fine print, Micro$oft does ** NOT ** allow you to resell closed source Visual Studio programs without a license.

That's just nonsense; even the Express versions of Visual Studio allow you to sell your program comercially.

The old "$" thing is just uncool, by the way; definitely showing some prejudice there - uniformed prejudice too - if you think your preferred platform is superior you shouldn't need to spread FUD in order to support it.

It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.

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And you have provided absolutely nothing to back this up. A quick Google for the first few words from your quote shows that to be standard boilerplate text in almost every single EULA out there, so it signifies absolutely nothing. You're also conveniently ignoring the "unless otherwise specified" part.

Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using Visual Studio Express Editions.

So it's probably best to drop the uninformed nonsense roundabout now before you make an even bigger fool of yourself over this.

It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.