You have certainly been helpful in every way Quietmorning! I wanted to deal with this thought:

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But let's unpack that and strip it down for a moment. . .what does the last card in the spread tell you? Isn't it the result of all the other cards if you stay on the path? And isn't there a future event card opposite (depending on the spread) of the past event card?

Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?

I actually am creating a Catholic tarot. I've got a few of the Major Arcana worked out:

0—The Fool: Yes, you. Playing with Tarots? You're going to hell.VII—The Chariot: Remove the horses, it's a handcart – that you're going to hell in.V—The Pope: …says infallibly you're going to hell.XIII—Death: The wages of sin! You're going to hell.IX—The Hermit: You can run, you can hide, but you're still going to hell.X—The Wheel of Fortune: Buy a vowel: Y__'r_ g__ng t_ h_ll.XX—Judgement: Yeah, you're in for it. The Judgement is…you're going to hell.XXI—The World: What does this profit you, when you're going to hell?

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:

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Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:

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Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?

I think you're talking about Tarot as a means of self-knowledge, knowing one's strengths and limitations, somewhat how astrology is used in the West. It may be true that Tarot and astrology -- if properly used -- can give insight into one's personality, but the all too common mistake is to take this "personality" as static, unchanging, and an infallible guide to making choices. In short, the all too common mistake is the fall into fatalism, into thinking that the Tarot spread or the astrological chart is "you" or determines who "you" are. Such submission to the occultic arts is a type of materialism, perhaps not "scientific materialism," but materialism nonetheless. However, we don't reject science just because of the danger of scientific materialism. Likewise, one need not blindly reject Tarot just because of the danger of "occultic materialism". Instead, one can interpret and digest Tarot along Christian lines, each Tarot card representing different aspects of the Divine Person or the divine life. (The Fool, for instance, might symbolize the Holy Fools; The Hanged Man looks very similar to the process of St. Peter's martyrdom.) Used in such a way, Tarot can lead one towards God and neighbor, rather than towards self and ego.

Whether anyone uses the Tarot in this way, or whether the Tarot should be used in this way, is a different question. Perhaps such a use of the Tarot can be a bridge over which someone travels from selfish occultism to true Religion.

Just so you know, I'm not a witch.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 06:09:37 PM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Instead, one can interpret and digest Tarot along Christian lines, each Tarot card representing different aspects of the Divine Person or the divine life. (The Fool, for instance, might symbolize the Holy Fools; The Hanged Man looks very similar to the process of St. Peter's martyrdom.) Used in such a way, Tarot can lead one towards God and neighbor, rather than towards self and ego.

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:

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Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?

I don't have much time - running off to a meeting, but will hopefully give this the time it deserves when I get home.

But in the mean time, I might leave this as something to think about. The card is a card. No more no less. The definition of the card is induced by the reader according to the either tradition or intuition. The card has no power to tell what one card means or another card means in order to dress itself to mean another meaning. Nor does it have the power . . .or intellect to decide what that should mean to you.

It is in our own minds - as our minds work this way, always reaching to fill in the blanks - that we attach meaning to our own past, present and then therefore future. You (and any other who might be interested) might want to look at what the suggestion does to any mind - its a powerful thing. The cards pictures on the cards 'suggest' an event. . .the mind goes about working on it to bring it about. . .if the card suggests the card of ten swords, what does that bring into one's life? It all depends on the person viewing.

The cards are not powerful. Our minds certainly are - we can wrap ourselves up into delusion to the point where our whole world is not anything close to the truth.

To answer your question. No - I am not inclined to think the cards portray a pattern of anything in particular - but I am inclined to think that we attach meaning to enable a pattern to suit our own comfort level... and if we are still believing that it is the cards, then we delude ourselves. . .and fall into fantasy. As much as fantasy can be appealing, it's just that. . . it isn't life. It isn't the fullness of life. He died to give us life and give it abundantly. Who am I to look at Him and say it's not good enough?

If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short? Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE? Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck? Why not wait to see what He will do? I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things. We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?

If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short? Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE? Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck? Why not wait to see what He will do? I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things. We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?

That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.

If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short? Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE? Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck? Why not wait to see what He will do? I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things. We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?

That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.

I think it's more that the card reader can show possible outcomes based on thier ability to do cold readings, read body language, ask vague leading questions and put on a good enough show to make you think they somehow read your fortune. The only time cards can determine your future is if you break the Baccarat table at Monte Carlo.

If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short? Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE? Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck? Why not wait to see what He will do? I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things. We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?

That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.

I don't think it limits a person from making a different choice from their own free will. And I never said as such.

What I did say is that it's putting your trust in something other than God. I did say that it is not like the Christian or Judaic form of choosing lots. I did say that the use in intent is completely different from the use in intent of the Christian/Judaic form of choosing lots. I did say that the guidance usages from Tarot is completely different from the Christian/Judaic form of choosing lots.

If the last form of rationalization is based on whether this is a good way of making choices? **shrugs** Personally, for myself, I wouldn't do it. I love the people in my life too much. I'd much rather be and I'd much rather my children, my brothers and sisters, my parents, my friends, my neighbors be in the hand of God and not in the whim of a card lay out. Any day of the week.

Is it a personal choice? Is it free will to do or don't? To believe 'the cards' are truly leading your life? To not continue this relationship with the person across the street because the cards 'suggest' that if you continue this person will drive you to being broke? What of loving your neighbor? Or your enemy? Or doing for others what you would want them to do for you? It makes something so simple and beautiful - rich and deep. . .and breathtaking. . .complicated, rational, relative, and selfish. A personal choice? Free will?

Sure it is, we all have free will, but the choice always always always falls between life and death. Again, choose this day who you will serve. A cup is being offered to you, one of life, one of death.

Know the seriousness of what you (whoever you is that reads and chooses between) must decide.

If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short? Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE? Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck? Why not wait to see what He will do? I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things. We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?

That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.

I think it's more that the card reader can show possible outcomes based on thier ability to do cold readings, read body language, ask vague leading questions and put on a good enough show to make you think they somehow read your fortune. The only time cards can determine your future is if you break the Baccarat table at Monte Carlo.

Echo much?

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Quietmorning, you seem to know quite a bit about the Tarot. Have you had experiences with them? Or was it someone close to you? I would love to hear your story. If you would feel more comfortable doing so through PM that's fine as well. It seems that you are one of the only ones on this thread that takes the use of the tarot to the point of it sending a person to hell. Which is a perfectly fine opinion to hold. I bet it has been arrived at by experience. I could be wrong though.

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.

(Misread your post, I apologize.)

Well, you are ultimately the one who will have to decide, but this was what I grew up with and what I witnessed.

The lots were used for a decision that needed to be made for the sake of the community - Saul went to a soothsayer to get INDIVIDUAL. . . attention and got into a world of trouble because of it. The enemy knows just how to hook our ego's - and before you know it we're powerless in our 'perceived' power trip. Like I said, lots were simple. . .yes or no. . .this one was the one who did this. . that one will go there. The enemy likes to put up a bunch of distractions and makes things complicated so that if this hook doesn't work by goodness there are thirty more to keep you tied up and gagged from being the true warrior you are meant to be.

Quietmorning, you seem to know quite a bit about the Tarot. Have you had experiences with them? Or was it someone close to you? I would love to hear your story. If you would feel more comfortable doing so through PM that's fine as well. It seems that you are one of the only ones on this thread that takes the use of the tarot to the point of it sending a person to hell. Which is a perfectly fine opinion to hold. I bet it has been arrived at by experience. I could be wrong though.

No, I don't believe the Tarot can send a person to hell. The cards can sit in the box and not harm a soul. Just like a gun, it's not the gun, it's the hand that pulls the trigger.

But we certainly can choose what we will or won't do, and how we will interpret what we will or won't do - and THAT certainly can.

If I took the cards and put them in my front pocket to keep a bullet from getting to my heart - they MIGHT save my life.

I'm saying that it is man's heart and the things that gush forward from it that harms. If the tarot were PLAYED as the CARD GAME it was originally intended to be? Maybe. . . in 'reading them'? No, in my humble opinion man's interpretation draws his ego out and he thinks he actually has control . . . brings his heart and mind OFF of God. No, I don't think any good can possibly come out of that.

When I was a little girl, in school there was a game where we folded a piece of paper into a star with yes and no answers in it, and then little handwritten sayings in it when it was completely opened up. We would say a rhyme and then have the person pick a piece of the star and read it.. .it was supposed to tell our fortune on something like - will this boy like me - etc. We all KNEW it was a game. It wasn't going to be true, it was all in fun, and ONLY all in fun.

There is no harm in THIS.

When someone sits down to have their reading done - he/she puts their trust in the reader, not in God. When the reader concentrates and then does a card lay out - he/she is putting their trust in the cards, not in God. There IS harm in this.

May I ask you a question? What is the difference between going to a reader and asking for a reading. . .and going to your icon corner and asking God to help you? Or lead you? Or give you wisdom? Or asking the reader to . . .'just pray for me'.

Or what is the difference between the reader sitting down and consulting the cards and telling the person, "Lord have mercy, I will continue to pray for you?"

Trust.

Who do you trust? The cards or God?

This isn't about whether Tarot cards are good bad or indifferent, this is about whether you will leave your life in His hands or whether you trust only your own . . . and a deck of cards to show you how to use your hands.

I consider it a privilege to join the conversation of sincere believers in this thread, and I would very much enjoy and benefit from further dialogue on the topic of tarot. I know there are Believers who feel very strongly that many of the Spiritual Gifts have ceased, but I've personally witnessed quite the contrary, and I wonder if Spiritual Gifts will become more and more visible in these times. Just like no one can convince me that Jesus isn't real, because I've personally witnessed and value Him as my very best friend. So, here's the thing...I have a tender heart that is hesitant and very fearful of what may indeed possibly be my spiritual gift. But if it is my gift, I'm sinning not to put it to use as directed by the Holy Spirit. So I cautiously offer what I've found thus far in my very long and soulful search in God's Word regarding the possible use of tarot by a Christian. If there are any responses or questions, I will listen when scripture is used, and I'm happy to further reconsider and also able to provide quite a bit of scriptural references that lead to my present understandings below:

1) There is a spiritual gift of a Word of Knowledge applicable to an individual person's specific circumstances in this life, that is different than basic overall Prophecy recorded in the Scriptures, and this gift would be confirmed as from God only if and when the Words provided by the gifted person are 100% accurate 100% of the time.

2) When we feel lost and confused, we can always cry out for comfort to our Father Who will not punish us for crying out to Him, asking for more clarity, or being fearful to advance until He reassures us of His Will, as He promised to answer all our prayers...so even His silence is an answer we should can peacefully take to heart.

3) God may speak to us using literally anything and through any means He chooses, and He is a patient and loving Father Who speaks in ways we can understand given our childish weaknesses in our limited capacity to understand Him.

4) God's forewarning of a sinful pattern that is destructive doesn't usurp our freedom of agency, nor is God's knowing the future the same as His controlling the future.

5) The Bible shows that believers used sticks, stones, and fleeces to confirm God's Will, and that though there were instances when God revealed His Will, there was also at least one instance where God did not reveal His Will or give His direction and the Apostles themselves prematurely jumped to the wrong assumption when God's will was none of the above...IE, none of the possible answers they suggested by their designated lots.

6) Lots, printed pages of any given translation of the Bible, and tarot cards, all of these are creations made of wood...and not The Creator Himself, and only the Bible as originally written is 100% purely Spiritually Inspired, so deriving what God is saying to us takes insight from the Holy Spirit.

7) Believers are in the least dim-sighted soldiers behind enemy lines, if not blind-sighted and held captive.

8) Even our limited understanding of God's revealed point of view and perspective gives us invaluable meaning to pain and suffering that brings powerful healing and freedom to bear fruit of the Holy Spirit.

9) The fruit of the Holy Spirit includes self-control (not other-control) to best put to use the resources God has provided us within the boundaries of he has allowed in time and space for each of our temporary habitation here on Earth.

10) When we're trusting in the Holy Spirit to complete our persistent prayers, daily in His Word, keeping this as our primary guidance, confessing our sins morning and night to remain in fellowship, staying close to Jesus... we may be shown visual confirmation of what we should already know, as a second witness, specific to our circumstances. Perhaps this would be an innocent use of tarot, if aligned with His Word and validated by the confirmation of two or three signs as additional witnesses, as a useful created thing that God may use to give us understanding of His partially revealed Will, to provide His perspective, to provide us peace in a specific matter that helps an individual.

I do not wish to offend, I'm just honestly speaking of my current understanding, this is respectfully and humbly submitted in love, and I'm open to grow in my understanding. So please don't hesitate to post replies to my input above, this is a wonderful venue we Christians should put to full use until He comes for His Bride Selah~

5) The Bible shows that believers used sticks, stones, and fleeces to confirm God's Will, and that though there were instances when God revealed His Will, there was also at least one instance where God did not reveal His Will or give His direction and the Apostles themselves prematurely jumped to the wrong assumption when God's will was none of the above...IE, none of the possible answers they suggested by their designated lots.

5) The Bible shows that believers used sticks, stones, and fleeces to confirm God's Will, and that though there were instances when God revealed His Will, there was also at least one instance where God did not reveal His Will or give His direction and the Apostles themselves prematurely jumped to the wrong assumption when God's will was none of the above...IE, none of the possible answers they suggested by their designated lots.

What do you mean by this?

Hi-ya!Nice to meet you. I love Unicorns (your avitar pic)! There's a verse I found in the King James Bible that has a unicorn mentioned, did you know that? Pretty cool.

Wow, that was an incredibly fast response time to my post...Thank YOU!

The area of scripture I'm referring to here is found in Acts 1:26.

My opinion is not as important as your personally derived understanding gained by your own prayerful study. When I pondered this area of scripture, I had to answer the following questions, but you may indeed have your own questions to further our dialogue. But here's some of my questions that I felt lead to discover answers to, if you're interested in following my logical progression:

1) What results from the use of the lottery in this case? 2) What confirms or does not confirm this usage of a lottery to determine God's Will? 3) Who were the 11 apostles, how does that list compare to whom we see evidence through the scriptures as functioning as the 12th apostle from that time forward?...4) Do you ever hear of or read anything written by or even about the one chosen by Lots or do you see someone else come on the scene as a mighty spokesman for God?5) What do you know to be true of God's character?6) What is your conclusion about whether God's choice for the 12th position was shown through the use of Lots (or not)?

Let me know what you come up with!

All I know for sure is Christ crucified. That's it. The rest is up for debate, with scripture as our guide. But I will say this, the God I know not only tells us what He's gonna do, He actually does it every time...to exact perfection, spot on, and He never misses the bulls-eye. When God's Hand is in it, you know it by the detailed evidence beyond human ability or happenstance.

Thank YOU! Proud to be here. And nice to meet you. What does the green dot next to your avitar, with the word "warned" mean? It's kind of weird. Do you know? I'm guessing I'm being warned? Or you are? Or is it something else? Hum...now I'm wondering if this is truly the right place for this topic to be discussed by Christians...maybe not....let me know if I'm not welcomed to speak, but I truly hope this is not the case. For this is a topic we find here and now and need to be prepared with an apt reply that represents Jesus well! Iron sharpens iron, what better way than this to truly think through what we believe and what we'd say and what we'd do when we come out of our time alone with God to engage the world!

A-ha! Found my own answer about the Green Dot under Rules!, I'll partially Quote below:

Informal Warning, officially Warning (“green dot”), Post Moderation, Muting, or Banning -- An “informal warning” is one which is made by the moderator either via PM or by a simple in-post message; it does not trigger an official warning through the forum software. Warned status (through the forum software) is a public indication that you committed a minor infraction. Further infractions may result in Post Moderation (where you can post, but the posts will not be seen publicly until they are approved by a moderator), Muting (where you cannot post, but you can engage in PMs and your account remains active) or Banning (ending your participation on the forum permanently). A time limit will be placed on your warning between 1 and 99 days; at the conclusion of that time, your status will automatically be downgraded to the next lower warning level for the same duration. (E.g. If you are muted for 15 days, at the conclusion of that time your status will be downgraded to Post Moderation for 15 days, then Warned status for 15 days.) When any of the above steps are taken to correct an action, a User Log is generated which tracks user infractions and moderator communication with said user.

Interesting.....

I also read under the Rules tab about the definition of "Orthodox Christian". When I look up in the dictionary the defined meaning of each of these words, it fits me. I believe that's what I am, though I'm not associated with any single Denominational structure enforced by men or humankind. The Bible states you're Born (ie., Born Again) into the True Church, you don't "join" the body of Christ, it's a matter of Faith, and only God is able to judge the motives of our hearts. So that's me...I'm a fellow sinner, who knows nothing but Christ crucified. And I am constantly growing and changing according to my current level of deficient understanding of God's Word found in the Bible. If this simple and honest stance is not welcomed to speak here on this forum, then I will not fight it but brush the dust off my feet! But I have valued what I have read from others on this site. In gratitude, MIJ

I also read under the Rules tab about the definition of "Orthodox Christian". When I look up in the dictionary the defined meaning of each of these words, it fits me. I believe that's what I am, though I'm not associated with any single Denominational structure enforced by men or humankind. The Bible states you're Born (ie., Born Again) into the True Church, you don't "join" the body of Christ, it's a matter of Faith, and only God is able to judge the motives of our hearts. So that's me...I'm a fellow sinner, who knows nothing but Christ crucified. And I am constantly growing and changing according to my current level of deficient understanding of God's Word found in the Bible. If this simple and honest stance is not welcomed to speak here on this forum, then I will not fight it but brush the dust off my feet! But I have valued what I have read from others on this site. In gratitude, MIJ

Yup...understood. But...I'm Sorry to say that even this "Orthodox Christianity" is considered a denomination by other denominations...so I don't like labels. I like discourse instead.

Like trying to define "anxiety"...what does that mean to you? I've found it means something entirely different from one person to the next. The word anxiety can be used to describe all sorts of feelings. So tell me about your anxiety! Is it how you fidget nervously pacing, or your impatience in waiting for God to do what you want, or is it how you show anger in yelling and slamming things, or is it how a single thought keeps on replaying over and over in your mind like a constant worry or is it fear?

That is why I say "You tell me"!

All those who are born-again who trust in only Jesus Christ crucified and risen for their redemption, from just about every walk of faith, are part of the true church as defined in God's Word, interestingly! And we all get something wrong, God's not finished with any of us yet. But I want to grow. And iron sharpens iron. So let's talk! Here! Now! Honestly!

And along the same line as the first question posted before asking what I meant, I'll tell you what I meant. The 12th apostle was Paul, not Matthias! Does anyone else come to this conclusion like me? Or am I wrong? and how do you come to a different conclusion? Tell me please so I can understand you. Let's get into God's Word together! YES! That's the goal. Because Paul warns us that in the end times there will be a great falling away from what we know as the original orthodox christianity. Check out 2 Thes 2, and 2 Tim 3 and 4.

Christ entrusted the care of the Church into the hands of the Apostles. They chose Matthias through the use of lots to fill Judas' spot. Tradition has it that St. Matthias was a great evangelist for Christ and was martyred giving the good news of the Gospel. I would hesitate to call his choice a mistake. St. Paul was certainly an apostle as well, although not one of the 12. In addition to the Twelve Apostles, there were also 70 Apostles that Christ sent out to minister. There have also been others who have been given the title "Apostle" and "Equal-to-the-Apostles" by the Church.

Yup...understood. But...I'm Sorry to say that even this "Orthodox Christianity" is considered a denomination by other denominations...so I don't like labels. I like discourse instead.

Orthodoxy doesn't care what other denominations think. Anthropologically speaking, Orthodoxy is more of a branch of Christianity. She is the East and her schismatic sister and her numerous offsprings, the West.

About Anxiety, we can all agree what it is. The experience of anxiety is that of worry and nervousness upon an uncertain outcome of a particular event. Slamming a table or yelling in anger is not Anxiety. Perhaps each and everyone's experience of that nervousness would be different(as in their perception of it) but we can still universally agree on its definition and the situations which it applies.

Christ entrusted the care of the Church into the hands of the Apostles. They chose Matthias through the use of lots to fill Judas' spot. Tradition has it that St. Matthias was a great evangelist for Christ and was martyred giving the good news of the Gospel. I would hesitate to call his choice a mistake. St. Paul was certainly an apostle as well, although not one of the 12. In addition to the Twelve Apostles, there were also 70 Apostles that Christ sent out to minister. There have also been others who have been given the title "Apostle" and "Equal-to-the-Apostles" by the Church.

Thank you. I cannot find further mention of Matthias in my Bible. Anywhere.I wondered if that was because I had a protestant-type Bible, versus a Catholic Bible, so I googled to find out about this and I have now learned that "Orthodox" Bibles have an additional whopping 14 books added to the 66 books found in my Bible, while Catholic Bibles have 11 additional books. I had no idea, this is quite a chasm. The extra books are called the Apocrypha, and these were removed from the Protestant Bible during the Reformation. Apparently, these Apocrypha books were never in the Hebrew Canon because 2 Jewish historians named Jerome and Josephus both excluded them due to they were not written by a prophet of God as were the other Old Testament books that were included. And the second reason these Apocrypha books weren't included is that they contain a lot of contradictory information that doesn't jive with the books of the Old Testament, raising many concerns as to who actually authored them because they are neither theologically nor historically accurate. Like I've said before, when something is of God, it is ALWAYS SPOT ON. It's pretty easy to identify His handiwork versus humankind's counterfeits. And the original always precedes the counterfeit. I have to agree with the identification of certain problems found in the Apocrypha, that do not give these books the same weight and authority as Inspired books.

These findings mean to me that I should not be here in "Orthodox" territory, since we cannot even agree on what constitutes the Word of God to begin with.... So sorry, I didn't realize that we don't even agree on the basic Biblical text! ...on what constitutes the Inspired text! I've decided that I cannot dialogue regarding Biblical topics when we don't even agree on a mutual starting point. Oh may God forgive me for all the things I get so very wrong. We Christians get so much wrong, and if it wasn't for God's Grace, we'd just be utterly hopelessly lost.

Thank You for letting me post. I think maybe this should be my last comment on this forum because I do not wish to offend. Nor argue the basics when there is so much to learn from what I know for sure is Inspired text. There's no time for that kind of thing...ya know? So sorry I must go. With Respectful Concern, Sincerely.

The entire Christian world weren't even clear on which Books are that of the Word of God. The Early Christians disputed the validity of some New Testament books such as that of Revelation.

Some non Biblical writings were also viewed by some to be Inspired Scripture. If Sacred Scripture is only supposed to have 66 Books following your Sola Scriptura maxim, then by right, the Early Christians would be in agreement as to which book is canonical and which is not. Problem is that such is not the case at all. So this means that the Protestants took away from Scripture. The Orthodox in contrast maintained that which is Scripture since they don't even have the belief in Sola Scriptura in the first place.

I hear you. But...this just doesn't work for me because the God I've come to know is 100% perfect in every detail. When this set of Apocrypha books does not jive with the other Old Testament books, this contradicts God's character. I cannot downgrade God to become an inaccurate, imperfect being like I am. He's perfect. He's my God. Ya know? And I see that not just one, but two Jewish historians found these Apocrypha books not to be Inspired, that's two witnesses. God first chose the Jewish people to relay His Word to humankind. This is a foundational faith issue for me, I cannot and will not go there, because this is one of our Enemy's most often used schemes, mix just a tiny bit of lie in with 99.9% truth and what a mess! I say this in Love and Peace to you~ sincerely....signing off now. Thank you for our conversation! I've learned a lot!