Jobbik MEPs to fight for pre-Trianon borders

Hungary’s radical nationalist Jobbik party plans to fight for the toppling of borders set by the 1920 Trianon treaty, newly elected MEP Csanad Szegedi said on Saturday.

Jobbik considers it one of its main targets that “the Trianon borders should be dropped within a few generations or as soon as possible,” Szegedi told a Trianon memorial meeting organised in Budapest by the Sixty-Four Counties Youth Movement.

The three elected Jobbik MEPs in Brussels will first of all demand the abolition of the Benes decrees on the expulsion of Germans and Hungarians from Czechoslovakia after WW2, Szegedi said. German and Austrian MEPs will be invited to work towards the abolition of the decrees, he added.

Jobbik will demand territorial autonomy for Szekler land in Romania and will also press for Transcarpathia in Ukraine to become an independent Hungarian district, Szegedi said.

The Trianon memorial meeting was attended by around 250 members of the paramilitary Hungarian Guard and more than 500 supporters on a square near Budapest’s City Park.

The Trianon Treaty was signed by representatives of the Allies of WWI and Hungary on June 4, 1920. Under the treaty, Hungary’s territory was cut from nearly 283,000 square kilometres to 93,000, and its population dropped from 18 million to 7.6 million.

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FreeThinker

What I love most about some Hungarian politicians is that they actually believe the people living outside of present Hungary but inside the pre-Trianon borders actually want to rejoin Hungary. Who in the right mind would want to join the worst lagging economic country in the region? Who would want to join a country in which the politicians are not in it for the better of the people – but rather themselves? Who would want to join a country where avoiding taxes is seen as a badge of honour versus an outrage? Who would want to join a country in which the government is one of the largest in Europe, yet the population is tiny? The answer? No one with intelligence. The surrounding countries are providing more for these lucky people than Hungary ever could. Hasn’t anyone noticed that these people are not pushing to move into Hungary? Citizens are actually leaving here….

Godot

So you’re saying that countries who received undeserved gifts from the Trianon Treaty are doing better than Hungary who lost most of its own territory. Are you stupid or something?

fabian

FreeThinker@I think you will find that the Ukrainian Hungarians,the Serbian Hungarians and the Érdely Hungarians would be glad,only Slovakia,and maybe Croatia are doing ‘better’ regionally.

Tanarur

This is a pipe-dream. While the Trianon treaty was/is one of the worst injustices perpetrated on a country in modern history, there is absolutely no chance that any other European state, not to mention the EU, will revisit a 90 year old treaty, and forget about readjusting borders. Only within Hungary does anyone even care about this anymore. I personally think it is a shame, but it is a fact. Of course MEP’s don’t actually have anything to do with real political issues, so maybe at least this will keep them busy. The only possibility for success might be in the Vojvodina, since it seems every other ethnic enclave in the former Yugoslavia has been able to get some autonomy, if not outright independence. However, since Serbia is not a member state of the EU, there seems little hope of working through the EU to achieve this. Also, there is the problem that Hungarians can not be considered a Muslim people, so no one gives a rat’s tail about them.

JD

Actually I think FreeThinker has a good point.
Having recently come back from a visit to Transilvania and some Szekely areas, the only perceivable difference I can see is that the people there pay less tax (oh and they are somewhat more welcoming too).
Yep Trianon was tough on Hungarian borders, but hey, shit happens especially when you choose the loosing side in a war.
I must say, it’s strange how you don’t here too many Austrians wanting to re-unite with Hungary. Go to Sopron, then travel another 20km to Austria, its amazing how all of a sudden the quality in the supermarkets and variety of shops leaps into the 21st century.
Without WWIII, I would consider it particularly unlikely that the EU would entertain re-drawing Hungary’s borders, Jobbik are deluded and just waisting eveyone’s time.

rumburak

Honestly, 90 years after and the Hungarians still cannot get over the Trianon Treaty. This is pretty much ridiculous and it says so much about Hungarians’ lack of perspective over history. @Fabian: you say the Serbian Hungarians, the Transylvanian Hungarians, and the Ukrainian Hungarians would hasted to embrace the old borders. But you (and all Trianon treaty soft talkers) forget the minor detail that these ‘Hungarians’ represent only a small fraction of the former Hungarian territories’ population, times and history changed a lot ‘out there’. The rest of Serbians, Transylvanians or Ukrainians or Slovaks may not be so thrilled of joining the country with the highest taxes in Central Eastern Europe, to name but one of its main flaws – leaving aside the fact that those people have no reason whatsoever to want this join taking place. Hungary would find itself with millions of disgruntled ‘minority’ populations. What would be next? Magyar Garda helping to exterminate/ethnic cleanse them? So get real people, find some real goals to set in politics. The pre-Trianon borders are no longer interesting even in terms of intellectual argumentation – everything has been said already over and over again within the past 90 years, I doubt anything original is still there to be said. No, actually I have something to say: it only would have taken Hungary to win the WWI. Even so, the borders couls still have been modified after the WWII. So there it is: You lost, game over, live with it.

Aldamir

Bring back the pre-Trianon borders, what a great idea…
Oh, wait, the Hungarians would end up as being just a big minority in Hungary, not the majority. That will really boost Hungarian culture.
I suppose the Slovaks, Romanians, Croats or whatever are just expected to leave.
Sounds very realistic…

Godot

rumburak, you’re an idiot.
Hungarians spent a thousand years building and defending a country, and lost most of it to an insane “treaty”. Revisions are happening all over the world, borders are changing. Germans got their lost eastern part back, the Soviet Union was created and broken apart, same with Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. Not to mention Israel, based on a 2,000 year old claim. If it takes 2,000 years to get our territories back, so be it, I have plenty of time. If Moldova can be independent, so can Transylvania, Romania has no rights to hang onto it.
90 years is nothing in European history. We had WWI and the depression, then WWII, then the cold war, and finally the fall of the Soviet Union and the creation of its successor, the EU. As you see, we were busy, never really had the time for an unbiased examination of the so-called treaty.
If Jews are entitled to receive reparations more than half a century after the war, it means the statute of limitations can be interpreted and mistakes corrected long after the damage was done.
Hungary needs to get rid of the traitors who run the country now, find decent folks to replace them and work up some strength to have a voice.
It ain’t over till the fat lady sings “let it be”.

Ben Rend

Even in Hungary, most people don’t care about this. Remember the 37 per cent turnout in December 2004. For this and all the reasons above, Jobbik are wasting their time and will make Hungary the laughing stock of the EU.
It’s a great shame that so many Hungarians placed their faith in Jobbik in the recent election only to be let down by the party wasting time on this. The only conclusion is that Jobbik do not care at all for the future of Hungary.

JD

In no way would I endorse any persecution of Hungarian-Romanians, Hungarian-Slovaks etc etc. Should that be happening then this is truly a worthy cause for Jobbik to petition the EU about.
The over-simplification of re-drawing lines on a map based on pre-Trianon borders does nothing to add weight to the argument that this should happen.
The first question I would ask would be why those Hungarian communities in, for example, Transilvania, would be any better off if their land was part of Hungary. It makes no sense. They would inevitably pay more tax for one. Yet their sense of identity is very strong so what is it about a line on a map that makes any difference to this?
All that shuffling lines on maps does is cause further unrest for some aspiring politcal group. For the most part, unless as I mentioned above there is persecution of individuals, it makes no difference at all to one’s identity. In-fact it can actually be beneficial to the individuals if they end up being part of a more prosperous and better run country.

C’est moi

“Hungarians spent a thousand years building and defending a country, and lost most of it to an insane “treaty”.”
Hmmmm, 160, that seems like very creative accounting. You clearly forgot about the years of Turks, and the painfully obvious 500 years of Hapsburg rule, who as far as I can tell, were not Magyar. WTF would Hungarians know about about running their own country. Geez, if the latest showing of pure-Hungarian rule has anything to say about it, you wouldn’t even be allowed to stand for post of dog-catcher. Give back Trianon lands, you’ve got to be kidding.

Anonymous

This is something that a reasonable proportion of Hungarians feel strongly about, so why not have the issue raised at a political level? There is nothing wrong with debating history. In any case, it is unlikely to make any difference, and will keep Jobbik busy for a few generations…

pantanifan

That last comment was by me, but I forgot to add my username…

Aldamir

Some rough estimates:
Current Hungary population: 10 million
Assume that these are entirely Hungarians for the purposes of a rough calculation.
Add the population of:
a. Slovakia (Felvidek if you prefer): 5.3 million: 10% Hungarian;
b. Transylvania (Erdely): 7.2 million: 20% Hungarian;
c. Croatia: 4.5 million: less than 1% Hungarian.
This would give us a Hungary with a population of 27 million, but demographically they would be 11.97 million Hungarian and 15.03 million other ethnicities.
This rough calculation does not include Subcarpathia, Burgenland and Hungarian Slovenia.
Hungarians are already only 44% of this estimate, this would slip even further if the other territories were included.
If some Jobbik types feel that they are under a Palestinian type occupation now, just think of how they would feel if they got their way on this one.

Aldamir

Just to supplement my earlier figures:
Carpathia: 1.25 million: 12% Hungarian;
Voivodina: 2 million: 14.25% Hungarian;
Burgenland: 0.28 million: 5% Hungarian.
Add these to the figures above and we get a pre-Trianon borders Hungary with a population of about 30.53 million and a Hungarian percentage of just under 41%.

Sophie

It would indeed be remiss of Jobbik to neglect to raise Hungary’s Trianon issues in the EP. Remember that the UN is still to pronounce upon Kosovo independence (which independence Russia is set to oppose). The pertinent UN deliberation, whenever it happens, will be lively, and it must touch upon the right to self-determination of the Serbian populations of Kosovo. In that ‘right to self-determination after border change’ spectrum, the status of the Hungarian populations outside the post-Trianon Hungarian border looms large. Now, the UN will, as it always does, invite ‘advisory opinions’ from all over the place, including, of course, the EU’s. Raising the Trianon issues in the EP now, Jobbik is ensuring that: (i) the EU constructs an opinion on the subject, and (ii) that opinion takes account of the right to self-determination of Hungarians in the territories severed from Hungary by the Treaty of Trianon. Dr Morvai’s sound grasp of international law will pull the right international-law strings here. Also, support for the right to self-determination principle is not limited to the so-called ‘far right’ block in the EP. The better view is that this principle will attract a very broad basis of support there. This is the best thing yet to happen in the ‘justice for Hungarians’ cause. Thank you, Jobbik.

elayne

I do not support Jobbik but I do support restoration of the Hungarian people and the lands they are living in. The current Hungary has only become a free state since 1989. It has much to learn about being a successful democratic country. But that has nothing to do with whether its people should be unified. My Hungarian relatives in Slovakia have always wanted unification with the Motherland. Furthermore, the denial of Hungarian unification denies Hungary of a talent pool of our people that would help Hungary rebuild and become a successful country with a solid future. Why are we being denied that right? Why is it that other countries have been granted restoration and we are not? The statement that you lost the war and get over it is tiresome at best. The treaty is shameful and a blight on the free world. Face it and unify our people once again.

Aldamir

Morvai’s “strong grasp of international law” will unfortunately inform her that a country which signs a treaty (such as for example Hungary as signatory to the Treaty of Trianon in 1920) is stuck with the Treaty. Reopening the Trianon borders is a non-starter.
The rights of Hungarian minorities in neighbouring countries, especially previously Hungarian regions, is something which is negotiable, but who would promise their neighbour anything if the neighbour is making irredentist claims?

JD

Elayne “Furthermore, the denial of Hungarian unification denies Hungary of a talent pool of our people that would help Hungary rebuild and become a successful country with a solid future”
Why? Re-draw the line on the map and they do not move magically closer to any particular industry. They could work for Hungarian interests/companies and just be tax resident in another country. Other than just bleed them dry for tax, I have no idea why Hungary can not take advantage of them wanting to work for Hungarian interests.
And what exactly does it mean to have “right to self-determination”?
I have yet to understand really what difference it makes other than Hungary can puff out its chest and say look how much land we have now.

Godot

JD,
Of course you don’t get it. You’re not Hungarian, and never will become one.

Concerned Citizen

Well, I think it’s been said, hasn’t it? Hungary
cannot get back it’s land OR people. Frankly, if
those people in other countries wanted to move back
to Hungary, wouldn’t they do so? And if not, if they
feel they are from their home countries and Hungary,
then, why can’t that be? I’ve met plenty of
Hungarian-Slovaks and Hungarian-Serbs, so they must
feel something for their ethnic roots, but not
necessarily that they want to BE Hungarian in the
sense of citizenship. Just my 2 forint…

pantanifan

@godot: if you have to be Hungarian to “get it”, then what’s the point of taking the matter to the EU?

Sophie

Fortunately, Aldamir, Dr Morvai is likely to have a much better grasp of international law than you do. Inter alia, she will be fully aware that the Vienna Convention on the Interpretation of Treaties contains no ‘you’re stuck with the treaty’ provision. The status of the Treaty of Trianon in international law has never yet been examined. Jobbik is taking the right initiating steps to this end in the EP.

Geza

Aldamir has it. The pre Trianon borders were never a true Magyar nation but a Magyar empire of many nationalities which Hungary lost by being on the wrong side in two world wars.
Are the Magyars still searching for others to blame for their economic failings? The Gypsies, the Jews & now it is because the Magyar nation is the wrong size!
Although they have their own right wing nutters, I haven’t heard Austrians asking for the return of the Hapsburg Empire (including Hungary) – maybe it is because they have a successful country & are not needing to find excuses for their failure.
Hungary is beautiful & the majority are warm hearted kind people. Why do they allow themselves to be wound up by right wing Trianon dreamers. The glory they dream of never existed & people would be better off working together for their successful futures!

Sophie

Your platitudes notwithstanding, Geza, Jobbik is set to initiate the first review of the Treaty of Trianon, in the EP, the best-standing forum available to it. Hungarians can only gain from this. The biggest beneficiaries will be the Hungarians of the severed territories. You should watch Jobbik’s moves rather than fall over yourself in your rush to denigrate this valiant party and scoff at Hungarian nationalism.

JD

Sophie, I am not sure anyone is denigrating anything here.
Most people would like to know what difference it would actually make even if it was all set back to pre-Trianon.
In terms of the benefit it would actually bring Hungary, Hungarians and those on the other side of the border, its seems fairly abstract.

Aldamir

“Fortunately, Aldamir, Dr Morvai is likely to have a much better grasp of international law than you do. Inter alia, she will be fully aware that the Vienna Convention on the Interpretation of Treaties contains no ‘you’re stuck with the treaty’ provision.”
Well I hope she has a better grasp of international law than you have, because if she did she would read in the preamble (so she would not have to trouble herself with reading very far into the document) of the said Vienna Convention:
“Noting that ……the pacta sunt servanda rule [is] universally recognized”
The “pacta sunt servanda” rule states that contracts/treaties must be obeyed. In other words you’re stuck with your treaty.
She would also know that the Vienna Convention assists in the interpretation of treaties signed after it came into force, which is in 1969, and so would be useless in interpreting any treaty before that date except where it was merely declarative of customary norms of international law.

Knowing

Well done Jobbik, this is a step in educating the EU of the truth about Trianon.

Tudot

OK. Let’s forget about a country on the verge of bankruptcy, corrupt politicians and administrators, agricultural land that no-one wants to work, 100,000 Hungarians working abroad (at least), poor services and pitted roads across the country,a thousand villages where the mayoral system is defunct, poor road and railway links, a weak currency that is supported by foreign loans, banks that suck dry an already struggling people,
no coherent or cohesive plan to bring in the reforms that are crying out to be introduced to “kick start” the economy…waffling windbags who have nothing better to do than try to re-write history with false and empty promises, dickheads on this forum who believe them..
Chapters 20-45 later… Got it, yet, you pea-brained imbeciles!?

Sophie

Aldamir, the pacta sunt servada (literally, ‘the agreement must be kept’) principle in international law is this: treaties are ‘what the authors wanted them to be and only what they wanted them to be and because they wanted them to be the way they are’ (see Paul Reuter). I.e. this principle is the basis of international contract law. The Preamable to the Vienna Convention that invokes this principle is consistent with Reuter’s illumination: ‘Noting that the principles of free consent and of good faith and the pacta sunt servanda rule are universally recognized’. So, puncta sunt servada if and only if the contract emanates from free consent and good faith. (Or, if you like, ‘you’re stuck with the treaty to which you became party freely and in good faith’.)
You seem to have missed Article 3 of the Vienna Convention: ‘The fact that the present Convention does not apply to international agreements concluded between States …shall not affect … (b) the application to them of any of the rules set forth in the present Convention to which they would be subject under international law independently of the Convention.’ I.e. the Vienna Convention recognizes, inter alia, the pacta sunt servada principle.
Article 4, on which you appear to be relying, does no more than declare that the Vienna Convention’s rules of treaty-making do not ipso facto deny the validity of treaties formed before its inception. That Convention outlines the basis of the validity only of treaties formed after its inception.
Hungary certainly has a lot of scope for challenging the Treaty of Trianon on the pacta sunt servada obligation, because it did not accede to that treaty freely.

vdx

Well well, I have a better proposition. To put Hungary under the supervision of OSCE and the UN. Beacause it seems extremism in there is growing above the tolerance. The development in Hungary tends to destabilize the entire region.

Sophie

You’d like that, vdx? Abbot viszont nem harapsz.

Ricsi

Sophie@ Be careful, you are playing into a trap set by idiots,now is the time to be observant and tolerant,let the losers reveal themselves through hatred,but do not be complacent.

vdx

Ricsi,
speaking from experience? Well don’t worry, I don’t have stomach to argue with you either. You think your’re observing? Indeed, you don’t have to say a word, your actions speak for themselves.

Sophie

Thanks, Ricsi. But I’m sure I can role ‘em. They’ve learnt some law in the meantime. Big hug.

Rolrox

I’d be interested in how much this will cost HU to absorb all of the people who are not ethnic Hungarians now living in those lands? Given how poor things are at the moment, will Jobbik be raising taxes to cover all the cultural upheavel? If such leads to resistance movements, will they have a solution to assuage those people who actually like living in their countries? Will there be some sort of tax / cost compensation scheme. Perhaps HU television will have to start broadcasting in multiple languages … will they be able to get interpreters.
Sounds like an ill-conceived policy; disappointing from a party that just picked up several seats. Was this one of their election planks?

JD

And still no-one on this forum is able to explain why it would be beneficial or what difference it makes for Hungary or Hungarian-Romanians etc to push back the geographical lines to pre-Trianon.
Is that just an inconvenient question that gets in the way of a good dogma and a bit of far right fist waving?

Balint

Funny topic this one. It does feel like a historic injustice in many respects but the future lies elsewhere. I can just speak for Transylvania, which I do think is the biggest issue for Hungarians when it comes to claims about revision of the Treaty of Trianon. On the one hand it is difficult to accept to lose what is undoubtedly one of the most spectacularly beautiful and scenic places of Europe, and which throughout eventful times has remained a bastion for a free Hungary for so long with plenty cultural monuments such as Reformist churches and castles of erstwhile Hunagrian noble families. I suspect that many of you have not been there, or have followed the last 50 years in the region, or you would notice that for Hungarians the cultural oppression leading to numerous castles in ruin, the continued and ongoing construction of Orthodox churches throughout Transylvania on the most prominent places (main square of Marosvasarhely etc.) as the Romaina state continues to open one new church on average every three days (with your EU funded money at the end of the day) is tough to swallow. In Kolozsvar there is even a sign on the birthplace of Mathias Corvinus that “The Romanian King Matei Corvin, biggest king of Hungarians was born here”. All of you who complain about Hungary, go to Transylvania for three or four days on a road trip, if you cross the border on your way back you will fee you are in Switzerland…(Eastern Hungary, that is). At the end of the day however, Ceaucescu

Balint

‘s politics of relocating Romanians in masses to Transylvania in the beautiful council blocks you see today has changed the demographics for good and the future lies in ongoing EU regionalisation so that in 300 years the borders as we know them will be relegated to history (hint: Schengen). Everything else is dillusion.

Anonymous

Well said Balint, it would be interesting to know how many posters here have been to Transylvania, while claiming to know what is best for it…

JD

Hi Balint
I was in Transilvania just the other week for a road trip (although they don’t often do roads there). I couldn’t agree more about the feeling you get when you cross the border back into Hungary.
That said, it amazed me that in the Szekely areas, other than the landscape, the only other perceivable difference to Hungary is that the people are friendlier.
I, perhaps like yourself, am not really sure what the relevance of re-instating old borders would be. It seems a step backward and not forwards. Perhaps that’s just “par for the course” over here.

rumburak

It happens that I am from Transylvania, and not Hungarian. While I still maintain my claim that longing for the pre-Trianon borders 90 years after is pretty pathetic, I want to point out something else, which the Great Hungarians always hasten to overlook. Namely, pre-1918, the borders of the Big Hungary were a bit far fetched already. There were plenty of minorities within, and it’s kind of surprising that ALL the neighbouring countries entered the WWI with the precise goal of obtaining independence for the parts of Hungary that were populated by Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Romanians, etc. Explain this, if the country was so compactly Hungarian. Therefore, the idea of Hungarian “ownership” over these teritories is highly debatable. Coming back to the present, I have one more comment: Romanians (just as Hungarians, for that matter) are taught in history classes about the continuity of their existence on the Transylvanian territory. Sadly, neither Hungarian or Romanian historians could come with the ultimate proof of this continuity. So, assuming the borders were shifted and Transylvania would become part of Hungary, it would be hard to convince the majority of Romanian population there of the justice of the new borders. But allas, this will never happen, and as was said before, the answer is in regionalism and I may say, tolerance. Crying over spilled milk (lost borders) is going nowhere. Just get over it, like Alsacians did, and find solutions in line with the times we live in.

Knowing

This was caused by the Pan Slav propaganda! And look what happened in Sopron people had voted to rejoin Hungary not Austria.. So re check you false version of History, but wait we will review this when Jobbik hold a EU conference then the real experts wil be able to expose the Romanian LIES! We have the evidence and Facts not bullshit!!

:o@

HAHAHAHHAHA!!! This news were the best joke of thee day!

wolfi

This is so crazy!
Someone wrote: The Germans got East Germany back – well that used to be called middle Germany, East Germany has been a part of Poland now for 90 years.
We had the Versailles treaty just like you had Trianon, but only a few really crazy people talk about revising Versailles. So what do those jobbik people think will happen, when they talk about “Trianon” in the EP ?
Either the members of parliament will laugh it off or they will think that Germany might also try to revise Versailles…
That will be really funny!
Anyway some of my best friends are from Romania (the husband is of German descent, his wife is Hungarian). They have been living in Germany for 20 years and they like to visit their homeplace near Temesvar, they also like to visit me at the Balaton – but they prefer to live and work in Germany.

JD

It seems that this whole thing is an attempt to step back into the past and will do nothing but stir up potential wars. What a great thing to do …….. not!
Hopefully the EU will want to look forward and not backwards.

Viking

The idea, that some Jobbik-supporters/informers, is trying to sell about there will be some kind of ‘revision’ of the Trianon-treaty just because Jobbik has 3 MEPs, is rather funny.
They seem to have such high hopes that EP/EC/EU are the slightest interested in this Issue. Sophie did some parallels to Kossovo and I am the first one to claim that EU was wrong there. But EU does not touch anything that happened before it was created, then it would lead to an impossible situation, just compare Versailles, etc. Therefore EU will hardly do anything about the Benes-decret either. The max is a non-binding statement from the majority of MEPs, which does not carry any weight.
As Tanarur pointed out, the EP with their MEPs, does not rule the EU by their own, they have to co-operate with the European Commission (EC) and their is needed 100% agreement at the moment, so it is enough that Slovakia say no.
This of course Jobbik know, but they do not speak about it, especially this is their version of the ‘Union of European States’, what they want. Slovakia with their Nationalists can block all ‘Hungarian’ progress in the EU.
EU is not a collection for lawyers, if a verdict is needed it is either the European Court of Justice or any International Arbitration Court. None of them is formally connected to the EU.

Paramount

It’s learning from the past and healing what was created by the Corrupt Liars from the past.. not revenge just the plain truth of the matter, again and again like an old record until it’s fixed it wont go away.. Time to fix and repair the damage from the past.

:o@

HAHAHAHAHA!! This is getting just funnier and funnier! Come on crazy people… Make my day!

vdx

Sparking a fire of confrontation has often been an accompanying sign of poor economic development. This time it’s not different although in the case of Hungary it’s additionally accompanied by self-centered and rather limited outlook of hungarian society.
Now, a significant part of this society was tear down by cheap words and empty promises, but the real question is, what will be the decision of those who really are in power. Because with the power comes resposibility, Fidesz should proceed very carefully and stand out very clearly from those who bring nothing but a disgrace and a loss of confidence in the international society. Full scale extremism will rather lead to an isolation then to anything else what these mistaken Hungarians hope for. And the isolation is the last thing Hungary needs right now. Time for mass manipulation is over, time for pragmatism has come and if Orban has at least a tiny piece of common sense, he shall use it now.

International society? ))))
What a bunch of bull, if you catch my drift partner. No better forum exists than the EU parliament to bug them every friggin day with our grievances.
International society, tell me did you actually just crawl out from under a rock or are you really this dumb?

beju

Oh, and before I forget… FYI,the reason the treaty of Trianon stood the test of time, is only due to 60 years of communism purposely supressing emotions, rightful expressions of musts of a misdeed unseen, since the American expropriation of Indian land in the US. So before you nonchalantly dismiss efforts to reincorporate rightful territories of Hungary back to her, maybe you should ask the ruling Jews why it is in their best interest to contain and disdain Hungarian nationalism. Questions… questions…
Second Palestine maybe? Once they’re kicked out of there where do you think they land en masse?

Viking

beju,
“the reason the treaty of Trianon stood the test of time, is only due to 60 years of communism”
Bad excuse, then you had 20 years between 1919-1939, to fix the problem. And fixed it you did and lost another war, with its Benes-decrees that your friend is crying about in another thread.
How about to be on the winning side in the next war, just to test the experience. Maybe you will like it?

vdx

beju,
Trianon is a part of post-war arrangement of which only a desilusional person can think to be “revised”. If you or your buddies want some land, move your hands and go work it out. Land doesn’t fall from the sky today. The only thing jobbik members could come up with in european parliament, so that one could possibly take them seriously, is to ask the european comitee for subvention for mental institution for theirs members. That would certainly meet with positive reaction.

beju

Viking,
Trianon was a result of the 1919 “rat revolution” by Bela Kun his associates, who were by the way all Jewish. Without this episode subsequent to WW1, no foreign armies would have been allowed into the territory of the Kingdom of Hungary. The foreign powers utilized the chaos created by Karolyi to reward their allies in the region, because they wouldn’t care less for our country represented by a bolshevik jewish team of brigands.
All the better and easier. Not to say, that our current aristocracy shared no blame in the outcome and forthcomings.
Between the wars Horthy did his best under the circumstances, but he at least made public this hypocrasy and outcry and did find supporters to trying to fix it with the Allied establishment of the time, Lord Rothermere of England etc..to no avail at the time. This time around, a real opportunity presents itself to rub it in every day before the European media (which can’t silence it anymore, and reluctantly though but have to report on it) to address our grievances.
Every nation worthy of itself does the same. Why do you ask me for being a proponent of it? Are you a Jew?

beju

dear VDX,
Mental institution? Are you actally there now?
You shouldn’t offer opinion without appropriate medication and health professional as per your current advice.
The world is one, that kind-of stays immobile as is. Yes. I’ve heard that before from people no longer collecting pogey on the government.
You have obviously no concept of things changing around you.
Are you telling me the Trianon treaty is carved in stone?
LOL

vdx

beju,
it’s wasn’t an opinion, it was the advice. Post it farther if you want.

Sophie

Viking, do please understand that the EP is a deliberative forum that constructs reports of its conclusions on issues brought before it by MEPs. Those reports include the majority and minority conclusions of the participating MEP factions. When an issue that the EP has already deliberated comes before a decision-making body (e.g: EC and the UN), that body will typically request the EP’s advisory opinion, or report of its conclusions, on that issue. Alternately, the EP will tender its report to that body on its own initiative.
Please understand also that when Jobbik says that it will demand the abolition of the Benes decrees, it is saying that it will put that demand before the EP. The MEP’s deliberation of the demand will follow, and a report will be compiled of the conclusions of that deliberation.
Do you now understand what rot you are babbling with your semi-literate ‘their is needed 100% agreement at the moment, so it is enough that Slovakia say no’?
And, for goodness sakes! Tanarur is an intelligent man. He did not make the stupid statement – ‘the EP with their MEPs, does not rule the EU by their own’ –you attributed to him. For your quicker remediation: the EP does not rule anything or anybody.

beju

Dear vdx
Advice? To whom, to me?
I never realized this was an advocacy board in your book. Sorry.
It doesn’t change however one bit about my opinion, that the treaty as is, belongs to the dumpsters of history whether you confess it to yourself or not. And maybe you might heed to advices that promote national interests above all and not apologizing for anything your opponents/enemies emphasize on your account for their benefit. It’s called politics.

vdx

beju,
your biggest problem is your short-sightedness. I’m not one of your subjects you would like to be convincing. And since this is an english-speaking site, you can count on that you can easily come across an opinion which won’t necessarily coincide to yours. Trianon treaty is not “carved to the stone” for sure, but so is not the Austro-Hungarian compromise just from 50 years before. I hope that, since your’re so concerned with defending your “national interests” from 100 years ago, you wouldn’t mind if Austria come up with their national interests from 18. century either.

Rolrox

@beju. Check on your anti-semitic point. Aside from not knowing what being jewish has to do with Trianon, Kun’s mom was a Proti, his dad a lapsed Jew.

Even so, if you’re going to through religion into it, then let’s put it to the Catholics who are currently coming up with all sorts of crazy taxes and bureacracy that didn’t exist 90 years ago. Oh, don’t tell me, Gyurcsany, Orban, Bajnai etc are all actually jews, they’re just pretending not to be.

The point of the thread is about Trianon, whether its a worthwhile topic to bring up, if so, what’s the cost, impact, what does it actually solve. There are some fantastic ideas thrown out here: that the treaty gave independence to a host of others (not just HUs) that had wanted self-determination; that the borders are arbitrary; that 90 years has past; that one is harping on about land they don’t even live on (and don’t own); that in any solution there’ll be losers that won’t be satisfied.

If you’re such a good christian, turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor? Or are you Islamic baby bomber?

Viking

Sophie,
Good then we agree that the EP will make non-binding resolutions. For everyone to read, but no one to follow.
The problem is that Jobbik does not present this, they present it like, now when they have 3 MEPs the Trianon-treaty will be revised, the Benes-decree will be abolished, etc. Just because these 3 MEPs will be the first in mankind to raise these issues in the European Parliament.
It is actually rather laughable that you guys really seem to believe that anything will happen, except these MEPs will be persona non grata in the most circles in Brussels and loose any small influence they ever could have lever. Meaning the votes cast for them will be lost in nothing.

Sophie

Beju, you are absolutely right: ‘This time around, a real opportunity presents itself to rub it in every day before the European media…’. Jobbik has put Hungary, for the first time since Trianon, into a forum with enough international clout to make a legal issue of the bitter consequences for Hungarians of Trianon. This achievement of Jobbik’s is truly stupendous. That is why Hungary haters (this thread is stacked to the gunwales with them!) are spitting venom. The present Lord Rothemere will certainly take up the cudgels of his illustrious forebear to give Jobbik’s position rigorous endorsement. The beauty is that the Trianon issue now fits in with all the PC positions: right to self-determination, international contract law, etc. So even the vast jewish media will find it difficult to downplay Hungarian efforts towards redress.

Viking

Sophie,
“international contract law”
What has that to do with a post-war treaty?
I am surprised that you do not use the Russian actions in South Ossetia and Abkhazia as good examples how you want to do it:
1) Get some kind of autonomy
2) Give everyone of the correct ethnic kin an Hungarian passport
3) Attack the country where the autonomic zone is ‘to protect your citizens’.
The EP-BS is just that “to rub it in every day before the European media”. Your problem is that very few wants to read that every day, so?
Jobbik has now gone from that 3 MEPs will alter the Trianon-treaty and abolish the Benes-decrees to just aiming to become an oral pest in the EP.

http://www.centralbudapest.com Vándorló

@Sophie: Yes, Harold Sidney Harmsworth’s (1st Viscount Rothermere) article in the Daily Mail almost 82 years ago (21 June 1927) was greatly welcomed by the Hungarian people. Over one million Hungarians signed a petition of support for Rothermere and the article (“Hungary’s Place in the Sun”) and he was even offered the Hungarian crown at one point, in thanks.
There’s even a lasting monument to him and Trianon in its (rebuilt) original form near the Szabó Ervin Library, at the meeting of Baross and Reviczky street. I think there are very few Trianon monuments now left in any form in Budapest and this has probably survived because it is, unlike the Turul statue, tasteful.
But, Rothermere wasn’t for the return of the original borders in any way. He merely wanted the areas with an ethnic majority of Hungarians to be redrawn along those lines. His underlying principles was that the majority status in these disenfranchised communities was the basis for future potential conflict.
Such majorities of Hungarians in those regions, do not now exist, so the reasoning would be that the basis of the borders to even be redrawn has also gone.
For a general discussion of Rothermere’s article try: http://www.ssees.ac.uk/confhung/romsics.pdf

Sophie

Vándorló, I agree with you in all but that ‘the basis of the borders to even be redrawn has also gone’. And even here, I am not in total disagreement with you. It seems to me that, given the demography of the areas severed from Hungary by Trianon, there is no chance of their return in toto to Hungary. What remains demographically, however, is the density of ethnic Hungarians in the belts closest to the Hungarian border. Now, on the same grounds that the borders of the Independent Republic of Kosovo and Serbia are likely to be adjusted to add the border region to Serbia (interestingly, for the very reason that Lord Rothermere voiced re Hungarians in the 1920s and earlier), a case can be made out for the return to Hungary of the Hungarian-populated border areas. But then, border-adjustment law is near-absent in international law. (Recall the legal shenanigans in the break-up of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia!) Still, at minimum, Jobbik can aim for an EC Directive for a referendum in the relevant areas that will decide to which state’s jurisdiction those populations want to attach.

JD

“Jobbik can aim for an EC Directive for a referendum in the relevant areas that will decide to which state’s jurisdiction those populations want to attach.”
Well I’ve got to agree Sophie that would be very interesting. Might just make the whole Trianon crocodile tears stop once and for all.
Of course, according to you, if they voted to stay under Romanian jurisdiction (and I assume taxes) that vote would have been rigged or perhaps a hoax or maybe even the fault of the Jews?

vdx

If some slovak citizens want or think they will do better in bankrupting Hungary than in Slovakia, they’re free to leave and try their chances. No one is going to be holding them. Righ of self-determination is deliberate when a group of people doesn’t possess its “mother country”, a clause which won’t hold for hungarian speakers living in CE. When US and ethnical Albanias in Kosovo wanted to justify their secession from Serbia, they had to come up with until then non-existent notion of Kosovars, an absurd expression never heard before. Speedy reaction of hungarian government to recognize Kosovo was nothing more but a mere calculation. As always, even this time, Hungary has followed its “the purpose justifies the means” attitude which is just as unscrupulous and egregious as the yells of retarded hungarian nationalists opting to use this agenda for their own issue. Here obviously an obstacle is not that international law was trempled down and denigrated, and that a regime compiled from mafia members and war criminals who know nothing but to smuggle weapons and drugs was promoted and legitimized. These people like to segregate people to themselves and to the “others”. Well now we can see who they are and who are these others, because they have their overturers just a few km on the south.

Honfi

Jobbik cracks me up. Looks like they haven’t learned from neighbouring countries like Serbia, when it comes to historical revisionism. Don’t get me wrong I’m against Trianon, but nowadays if you try to reclaim former lands, you get shafted – take a look at Serbia if you need an example. They pissed off so many people, that their own kin the Montenegrins don’t even want to live in the same country as them! Now Serbia is reduced to Belgrade and Vojvodina, and soon enough it’ll probably cease to exist. Whatever Jobbik is doing, it only gives more reason for the rest of our neighbours to laugh at us and take out the ol’ pumpkin carving knife. Ridiculous.

Shrek56

Greetings to you! All those venomous, sometimes pitifully patronizing comments made me to come out of the woods and post some reflections of my own.
1.The treaty of Trianon is truly a travesty of justice and because of limited space let’s ends with that.
2.Sometimes against all odds it’s good to lesson to an enemy. Unintentionally they do give good advises. Abolishing the treaty as it is today is a pipe-dream. It means basically that the representatives of the ones whom in the past imposed the treaty today would change their minds and admit their own guilt into the outbreak of the 2: nd world war. That will never happen.
3.Historical Hungary with Croatia had a size of some 320.000 Km2. Without Croatia her size was indeed 283.000 Km2. That has some implication on the rough math “Aldamir” provided.
4.The worst thing Hungarians’ of today can do is to try altering the borders in a “Serbian fashion”. That’s exactly what your enemies want you to do. Don’t fell for it!
5.The best thing you can do is to overcome your own differences, elect a strong government (seek help from famous foreigners and Hungarians living abroad as well), and begin to rebuild the economy of the country. (It’s the economy stupid!) Give your own kin citizenship, help them with advice and money and wait. Your time will come within 10-15 years.

Gheorghe Stoica

In Romania the passion for map-drawing of Jobbik is
shared by the increasingly popular neo-fascist party
“Noua Dreapta” (which is in fact not ‘neo’ but the
quite old, 1930s, Iron Guard-Legionary Movement).
The Legionary also want to re-draw the current maps
but they think that the western borders of the
ancient Dacia were on the Tisa, therefore….
With this mind it will be interesting to see how
they will get along with Jobbik in the EU parliament
despite their common passion for fascism and ethno-
geography.

beju

@vdx
Your arguments as far as Austria’s imaginery claim on Hungary actually do make sense only by geographic proximity and monarchistic marriage. Legitimately, the Habsburgs still do have a claim to Hungary’s throne as do their heirs. Legally, should St. Crown’s law have existed or had been reinstated as the natural inheriter of the country’s unlawfully abolished code of rule by stalin and the communists, Austria still wouldn’t have legitimate grounds as a country, only the Habsburgs would as the dynasty with legitimate claims to it. Not that I want to have any of them crowned as king, but rationally and with unbiased judgment they are the lawful owners of Hungary as sovereigns, since Charles IV abdicated by force, and renouncement of the Habsburgs of the Hungarian throne was coerced, it should be deemed null and void.

beju,
Having spoken with one of the remaining Habsburger, that could maybe claim the throne, I can re-assure you they are not interested.
It seems you guys have to clean up this mess yourself.
Of course without you because you are not even in Hungary, so please let us do it who actually live here and concentrate yourself on MediCare or something more interesting locally.

Forget About It

Trianon………
Only spoken about in Hungary and of no interest to anyone in the res of the ‘Real World’.
The people on this thread who still cry about Trianon are the mis-guided and under-educated.
Just wait until they read this, the abuse and name-calling can begin once again.
Hungary didn’t care at all about it’s borders or those that lived there at all.
It’s typically hypocritically Hungarian to claim differently after the event… But 100% expected?
That anyone below he age of 90 should even speak of Trianon is laughble.
But Hungary still believes it has no ‘price to pay’ for any of its own actions..the or now.
Hence the curent situation Hungary finds itself in…
But that will be other peoples fault also in 90 years time won’t it………
Grow up and take responsibility or once in History. Everyone else is sick of hearing how hard done by Hungary is.
Everyone else knows Hungay is to blame for its own ills, excet Hungaians it would seem.

AttilaBogracs

Jobbik want to fight to regain lost land.
They had better come up with something better than
this in their election campaign if they want people to take them seriously.
I wanted to hear from a party with a new perspective away from the old commie regime, MSZP etc. But it seems Jobbik are hellbent on appealing to the “hard-of-thinking” with this latest pre-Trianon rubbish.
It once again reflects the standard of politicians in Hungary. Not one of them have got a fucking clue.
..whether they represent Fidesz, Jobbik, MSZP,
SZDSZ, MDF, etc.
Bad news for Hungarians I’m afraid.

?

I read some stupid comments here!
First of all. The Trianon Treaty was a crime agains Hungary! It need to be sorted out.
Ye we have high taxes?! Idiots. And what 8 year ago it was the opposite. We had the strongest economy in center Europe. IT can happen to any outher center EU country.
I didnt know that your nationality depends on the tax level. Today Hungarian, tomorrow Slovak, and then Romanian.
Its sad to read this kind of stupidity.
This is why hungary is in this situation. Our politicians are exactly like you guys. They are working for who pays them the best money, and dont care about the nation. The hungarian people who is part of the hungarian nation wants to unite.
What do you think if hungary would have its territoy back, a country the size of UK, in central Eu?! Do you want to compair the TAX than. Romania, and serbia, wount even be mentioned next to us. You would compare hungary to France, Germany.
So waht are you people talking about?
Not to mention, that Central Eu would be a safe place again, whitout Balkan wars.
By the way the situation in hungary is the same that it was in Poland a couple years ago.
Now the finaly get rid of the Comunist(social) political party, after they destroyed their self whit corruption, and stealing the country money.
This will happen to hungary as well next summer. Finaly the pro comunist era will end!

The Truth

After French shameful defeats in Sedan on 1870, on 1914 and 1940, France is doing whatever it takes to kip down Germany and Austria-Hungary. Since then, France, in a fierce ‘struggle for existence, is denying the right of Germans, Austrian, Hungarian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Bulgarian to exist. French are enough ignorant not to understand that:
The red army, with 360 divisions, equipped with prestigious artillery, supported by armor, and decent air force, would invade them and stop at the Biscay Bay. They ignore the Anglo Americans efforts and ultimate sacrifices to save them. What goes around comes around. One day they will get what are looking for, but this day will be the last day of Europe too.

Anonymous

pre-Trianon borders, absurd I call you all…
Dreamin’ your halucination dream of a castle, inviting your cousins in, while in reality your shack is about to fall on your own head.

The Truth

After French shameful defeats, in Sedan on 1870, on 1914 and 1940, France is doing whatever it takes to kip down Germany and Austria-Hungary. Since then, France, in a fierce struggle for existence, is denying the right of Germans, Austrian, Hungarian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Bulgarian to exist. The Trianon treaty turned the nationalities of Eastern Europe, who had always lived in coexistence, into sworn enemies.
French are enough ignorant not to understand that:
The Red Army, with 360 divisions, equipped with prestigious artillery, supported by armor, and decent air force, would invade them and stop at the Biscay Bay. They ignore the Anglo Americans efforts, and their ultimate sacrifices to save them. What goes around comes around. One day they will get what are looking for, but this day will be the last day of Europe too.

wolfi

This thread is really funny to read!
Now I have just a few questions:
The jobbik MEPs have been active some time, what has come out of it ?
Did the EP already discuss their ideas about abolishing Trianon (and maybe Versailles too) ?
What do those MEPs really do to earn their money – I believe they get well paid…

@Vandorlo: Thanks, but I don’t understand and I’m not really interested in what Morvai is saying – I want to know the reaction of the other MEPs and the EU in general…

wolfi

continued:
Did the MEPS hear yet about “Trianon” and that Hungary (or at least some of the really crazy people here) wants to turn back the clock 90 years – and was there any reaction to this ?
I haven’t heard or read about Trianon any where in the last 50 years except in those Jobbik statements.
Exactly as you don’t ead about “Versailles” anymore in the German news, because nobody is interested anymore…

olga

@ all
I looked for any article that had the word “Trianon” in it so I could post this somewhere that would at least tie in with the subject
I received an email from a friend in BP (the one who won’t bother to vote) The question was “what do you think?” – not sure what I am supposed to think
It had a PPS file attached (wish I knew how to post it) It was called “Ne Gyere Haza – Erdedeti uzen”
It was all in Hungarian – easy for me to understand.
I would like to know who is behind it – Could be JOBBIK ? Similar party message- it keeps saying in Hungarian, “don’t come home, there are no jobs” Nothing about minorities so I am not sure.
Trianon was repeated many times – it said Hungary celebrates Trianon (??!!) News to me.
Great pics of Hungary
Has anyone seen it? ( I was hoping there would be credits rolling at the end but there weren’t.)

Ritzi

It is really eye opening to note that a progressive U. S. President was partly responsible for the carving up of a nation, (ie people) who did not even start the war? Was Germany carved up after WWII? Who was the US president none other then another progressive.
Just think how wonderful it would be if the US lost CA, AZ, NV, NM,TX, FL. Lets just pretend those lands were given by Trianon to lets say Mexico. Now those people became Mexican citizens. They would have to speak Spanish in school, at work, at church, and also Spanish would be the language that all governmental (laws, ordinances, driver licenses, marriage licenses etc had to be conducted in. Wow how much fun would that be? How can you even wait for it to happen? Let it happen now. Well that is what happened after Trianon. Hungary paid for every ones sins. Wilson is dead time for a do over now. Hungarian families must be joined together now. Death to TRIANON.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

Hungarian families must be joined together now. Death to TRIANON.
Ritzi at March 14, 2010 4:08 AM
—
Yes, but *how*?
I think it takes a bit more than posting that on an English-language web-site, so how should Hungary reverse Trianon, when no other country involved are interested in doing it?

justasking

@Viking;
Should it matter if they are interested or not? How much interest did Hungary have in creating these countries?

Pete H.

Hungarians are currently in the minority in most of the pre-Trianon areas. Do you think the majorities in these countries will stand for re-annexation?
Will Hungary take it by force? No.
Will international governing bodies agree to reestablishing the old borders? Of course not.
Was Trianon too severe to Hungary – Yes, too many areas with Hungarian majorities were lost.
But, it’s over and done and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And the focus on it prevents some Hungarians from moving forward in a postive direction.

justasking

@ Pete;
I suggest that you read “Paris 1919-Six Months That Changed The World” by Margaret MacMillian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

how should Hungary reverse Trianon, when no other country involved are interested in doing it?
Viking at March 14, 2010 8:02 AM
====
@Viking;
Should it matter if they are interested or not? How much interest did Hungary have in creating these countries?
justasking at March 14, 2010 3:33 PM
—-
The question for you guys who want to revert Trianon is just:
* How will you do that against the will of the States that owns the areas now?
–
Simple question that you guys seem not to be able to answer
This has nothing to do what happened, why it happened, just what *will* happen to reverse the situation?
.
When Jobbik’s 3 MEPs went to Brussels ‘elle/sophie/tunde’ was lyrical on how these 3 MEPs would make the Trianon ‘illegal’ then Morvai was such a good Lawyer and if just Morvai put the ‘right’ questions, the International Community would give back the pre-Trianon areas
Anything substantial happened so far?

justasking

@ Viking;
I have never skirted around the issue on my opinion of reversing Trianon. Although I would love to see it happen, I doubt it ever will.
I tell you what I would like to see though, I would like to see the Hungarian minority is these countries status raised to that similar to what we have in Canada with the French Canadians.
Recognition of their history, culture and language and protection of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

I would like to see the Hungarian minority is these countries status raised to that similar to what we have in Canada with the French Canadians
justasking at March 14, 2010 6:42 PM
—
OK, that I can agree upon as something that should be able to implement inside the current EU-frame
Probably take some years more and will be a more general status for different minorities here and there
There are not only post-Trianon countries that need to up their policies on minorities, we have the Baltic States etc
Slowly the common policies will reach better levels in general
The balance between minority and majority languages is an intriguing task to get general rules for that can apply everywhere, but this means then that all EU member states must give up more of their legislation to the EU

justasking

@ Viking;
Uh, Uh, Uh!!
We are not suppose to agree on anything, now stop it!

TermalSpa

Why bother about language? If people can’t understand each other – so much the better!
They can’t argue. If you review all the posts on this site you will understand what I’m getting at.
All the ex-commie states are struggling with corruption issues including Russia. A leopard can’t change its spots. Or, can it? Answers on a postcard to Vicky’s Palace, Heviz, Healthy SpaLand for retired gentry.

George

These guys from Jobbik are a joke. I’m wondering
if any of them asked the neighboring countries if
they would agree some of their proposals. Also,
they should take in consideration the fact that
Hungarian ethnics do represent a minority in all
of the neighboring countries. Did they ask the
majorities what they want (Romanians, Slovaks,
Serbians, Ukrainians, Austrians)? Should I mention
that with all of these countries Hungary is having
signed treaties?
These guys are just extremists that wants to get
into power not for the Hungarian nation good but
for their personal good.
Instead of looking to draw new borders they will
better look into the future of Europe with no
borders.

Paul

“These guys are just extremists that wants to get
into power not for the Hungarian nation good but
for their personal good. ”
i would say that statement applies to every other major party, more so than to jobbik. especially the corrupt mszp/szdsz syndicate that has destroyed hungary over the last decade.