zabadu:Everything isn't a reality show. I venture you're no more than 25 years old. You've never seen someone get into an anger zone that makes everything except their target disappear. You will.

I wish I was 25 again, you're not even close... , and if you had bothered to read my other posts, you'd have a clue about the fact that I was in an abusive relation myself, and I've seen more than you could possibly imagine, helped many through some, and studied it quite in detail to get an understanding of this part of human nature and why I went through so much, my role in it, etc.

So while I don't want to sound rude, just keep your uneducated opinion, thank you.

To those who keep saying "she had it coming because she wanted a bad boy" this girl is 19. She had her first child at 15 which is still being a kid. Can all of you assholes who lambast her remember what you were like at 15 and can you suddenly imagine having to care for another human being? Yes she's made bad decisions, clearly, but I can't imagine not having a shred of empathy for someone else in this situation. If y'all are telling me that you've never made a bad decision before, or gotten hurt, or abused or been in a bad spot, then you are a farking liar.

And to the "nice guys" WHAT THE HELL?! Why did you even have to jump into this thread? Are you kidding me? That's like jumping into a pedophile thread and going "Hey at least I'm not that asshole, someone should give me an award for not raping kids". You don't beat women? Bully for you, you're not the worst person in the room. Stop comparing yourself to rapists, murderers and abusers and start I don't know...actually being a nice farking guy. Also a pro tip if you think a woman deserves to get abused because she fell for someone who took advantage of her and then beat her, you're not a nice person or a nice guy.

Molotovcat:To those who keep saying "she had it coming because she wanted a bad boy" this girl is 19. She had her first child at 15 which is still being a kid. Can all of you assholes who lambast her remember what you were like at 15 and can you suddenly imagine having to care for another human being? Yes she's made bad decisions, clearly, but I can't imagine not having a shred of empathy for someone else in this situation. If y'all are telling me that you've never made a bad decision before, or gotten hurt, or abused or been in a bad spot, then you are a farking liar.

And to the "nice guys" WHAT THE HELL?! Why did you even have to jump into this thread? Are you kidding me? That's like jumping into a pedophile thread and going "Hey at least I'm not that asshole, someone should give me an award for not raping kids". You don't beat women? Bully for you, you're not the worst person in the room. Stop comparing yourself to rapists, murderers and abusers and start I don't know...actually being a nice farking guy. Also a pro tip if you think a woman deserves to get abused because she fell for someone who took advantage of her and then beat her, you're not a nice person or a nice guy.

imfallen_angel:zabadu: Everything isn't a reality show. I venture you're no more than 25 years old. You've never seen someone get into an anger zone that makes everything except their target disappear. You will.

I wish I was 25 again, you're not even close... , and if you had bothered to read my other posts, you'd have a clue about the fact that I was in an abusive relation myself, and I've seen more than you could possibly imagine, helped many through some, and studied it quite in detail to get an understanding of this part of human nature and why I went through so much, my role in it, etc.

So while I don't want to sound rude, just keep your uneducated opinion, thank you.

I did read your other posts, and based your age off your pseudo photos. You still don't get it.

IF NO- it's okay to be nice and do favors for her. She's your friend, just like your male friends. There's not supposed to be any sexual tension here.

IF YES- be amicable, but do not be her friend. Do not do any favors for her. Do not sit on the phone listening to her talk about her boyfriend "Look, I don't have time for this." Do not drive her to the airport. Don't go see Sex in the City 3 with her. Make your intentions known from the offset. She knows whether or not she wants to date or have sex with you fairly soon after meeting you. You aren't going to trick a girl into liking you. She If she has a boyfriend, ignore her until she doesn't. If you become her lap dog and do favors for her, you are in the friend zone. You're the kinda creepy guy that she knows has a crush on her but she has absolutely no interest in dating. If a girl spurns your advances, game's up- ignore her and move on. There are literally dozens of women out there that would probably date you. At the outset of a potential relationship, women don't want men who are willing to do everything for them. They want men who have a back bone and who are willing to say no to their stupid requests. Tell her you're busy even if you just want to sit around and watch futurama. Not being at her beck and call will get you laid more than being there for her.

Once you've landed a few actual girlfriends or sexual encounters, you can adjust the strategy a little bit.

Too many men take 'have a back bone' to mean 'be an asshole', so this becomes bad advice for them.

I say keep it simple: Don't worry about should/shouldn't. Don't follow fake behavior advice. Like her? Tell her. Don't deliberately brush her off artificially because some guy told you to. If you want to listen to talk about her boyfriend, then do that. If you don't (and you probably don't), then tell her that - that's the point, it should come from the fact ...

We'll have to agree to disagree. I've known several "nice guys" who initially want to listen to her talk about her boyfriend because it means for once they're getting attention from a female. But two months later they realize they're the "nice guy" when she's flying off to St. Bart's with her third new boyfriend and they're driving her mom to get a colonoscopy. People lacking social skills need direction- not "do what ever you feel like." Because what they've felt like doing has gotten them nowhere. Simply put, they're doing it wrong.

Once a man finally breaks out of the "nice guy" mold, then he's more free to do what he wants because he will hopefully have a better understanding of the social dynamics.

zabadu:imfallen_angel: zabadu: Everything isn't a reality show. I venture you're no more than 25 years old. You've never seen someone get into an anger zone that makes everything except their target disappear. You will.

I wish I was 25 again, you're not even close... , and if you had bothered to read my other posts, you'd have a clue about the fact that I was in an abusive relation myself, and I've seen more than you could possibly imagine, helped many through some, and studied it quite in detail to get an understanding of this part of human nature and why I went through so much, my role in it, etc.

So while I don't want to sound rude, just keep your uneducated opinion, thank you.

I did read your other posts, and based your age off your pseudo photos. You still don't get it.

Given that this is the second person you've used age and immaturity as an argument tool against in the past 10 posts, I'm not sure we're the only ones with issues.

Virtuoso80:zabadu: imfallen_angel: zabadu: Everything isn't a reality show. I venture you're no more than 25 years old. You've never seen someone get into an anger zone that makes everything except their target disappear. You will.

I wish I was 25 again, you're not even close... , and if you had bothered to read my other posts, you'd have a clue about the fact that I was in an abusive relation myself, and I've seen more than you could possibly imagine, helped many through some, and studied it quite in detail to get an understanding of this part of human nature and why I went through so much, my role in it, etc.

So while I don't want to sound rude, just keep your uneducated opinion, thank you.

I did read your other posts, and based your age off your pseudo photos. You still don't get it.

Given that this is the second person you've used age and immaturity as an argument tool against in the past 10 posts, I'm not sure we're the only ones with issues.

I'm 52 years old. I have never been in an abusive relationship. I have had friends that have been.

I don't profess to know anything other than this was real, not staged (he got arrested folks, and I posted proof of that), people get angry to the point where they see nothing else that matters (go study "rage"), and guys who pretend they are cops are usually f-d up (see above macho posts).

Reality TV has made people horribly cynical to real life situations. If you know of any seriously mature 15 year olds that could raise a family with the same mindset a 30 year old would, please tell. This girl is 19. And she gets blamed.

WhippingBoy:GoSurfing: Not going to claim to be a nice guy, but seriously, the women I've liked that didn't give me the time of day were more talented/smarter/awesome/etc in every way, shape, form. That's honestly what I thought. It wasn't a "putting her on a pedestal" complex either, rather just knowing you couldn't compete with someone way higher on the social ladder.

This is a pattern of thinking. Considering anyone to be "more talented/smarter/awesome/etc in every way, shape, form" screams low self-esteem and strikes me as a bit creepy. If I met someone who thought of me like that, I'd run far and run fast.

Out of context much? This was a counterpoint to another person's point. I was showing a contrary example. The person who quoted this cherry picked that out of context. And besides, some people are more talented/smarter/awesome than you. And I'm ok with that. It's not a self-esteem issue dick, it's called being a realist.

zabadu:I'm 52 years old. I have never been in an abusive relationship. I have had friends that have been.

I don't profess to know anything other than this was real, not staged (he got arrested folks, and I posted proof of that), people get angry to the point where they see nothing else that matters (go study "rage"), and guys who pretend they are cops are usually f-d up (see above macho posts).

Reality TV has made people horribly cynical to real life situations. If you know of any seriously mature 15 year olds that could raise a family with the same mindset a 30 year old would, please tell. This girl is 19. And she gets blamed.

At first I was...

Then I was

Then you make me think that since you believe yourself all smart and crap and others are busting your bubble, that you must be...

zabadu:I'm 52 years old. I have never been in an abusive relationship. I have had friends that have been.

I don't profess to know anything other than this was real, not staged (he got arrested folks, and I posted proof of that), people get angry to the point where they see nothing else that matters (go study "rage"), and guys who pretend they are cops are usually f-d up (see above macho posts).

Reality TV has made people horribly cynical to real life situations. If you know of any seriously mature 15 year olds that could raise a family with the same mindset a 30 year old would, please tell. This girl is 19. And she gets blamed.

/continued

But I do expect that you'd reply with

which would be something that I'd...

And if you decided to keep your attitude of smugness (in a freaking thread about abuse)... then I'd offer...

imfallen_angel:zabadu: I'm 52 years old. I have never been in an abusive relationship. I have had friends that have been.

I don't profess to know anything other than this was real, not staged (he got arrested folks, and I posted proof of that), people get angry to the point where they see nothing else that matters (go study "rage"), and guys who pretend they are cops are usually f-d up (see above macho posts).

Reality TV has made people horribly cynical to real life situations. If you know of any seriously mature 15 year olds that could raise a family with the same mindset a 30 year old would, please tell. This girl is 19. And she gets blamed.

At first I was...

[i478.photobucket.com image 218x150]

Then I was

[i478.photobucket.com image 300x200]

Then you make me think that since you believe yourself all smart and crap and others are busting your bubble, that you must be...

[i478.photobucket.com image 461x576]

And you wonder why your girlfriend was violent? You're a gigantic baby.

"Someone doesn't agree with my carefully researched agreement about how a man can hit a woman because he feels abandoned when she leaves him standing in a bar. Waaaahh!img src=

IF NO- it's okay to be nice and do favors for her. She's your friend, just like your male friends. There's not supposed to be any sexual tension here.

IF YES- be amicable, but do not be her friend. Do not do any favors for her. Do not sit on the phone listening to her talk about her boyfriend "Look, I don't have time for this." Do not drive her to the airport. Don't go see Sex in the City 3 with her. Make your intentions known from the offset. She knows whether or not she wants to date or have sex with you fairly soon after meeting you. You aren't going to trick a girl into liking you. She If she has a boyfriend, ignore her until she doesn't. If you become her lap dog and do favors for her, you are in the friend zone. You're the kinda creepy guy that she knows has a crush on her but she has absolutely no interest in dating. If a girl spurns your advances, game's up- ignore her and move on. There are literally dozens of women out there that would probably date you. At the outset of a potential relationship, women don't want men who are willing to do everything for them. They want men who have a back bone and who are willing to say no to their stupid requests. Tell her you're busy even if you just want to sit around and watch futurama. Not being at her beck and call will get you laid more than being there for her.

Once you've landed a few actual girlfriends or sexual encounters, you can adjust the strategy a little bit.

zabadu:"Someone doesn't agree with my carefully researched agreement about how a man can hit a woman because he feels abandoned when she leaves him standing in a bar. Waaaahh!

There are reasons, not excuses. Human behavior is a result of something. Talking about the dynamic of an abusive relationship from something else besides absolute condemnation and moral outrage is not wrong, especially if it helps us to understand why, and thus prevent it from happening in the future. To say that that the abused party is nothing but a victim of randomness means we give up on, say, teaching young women how to recognize and avoid getting involved with such men. She made a bad decision to get involved with this guy. An easy and understandable one to make given her situation, but a bad decision nonetheless.

As for the guy, he's got issues. He committed a crime. But I think some people are scared to go near it and do what is actually the most helpful thing: Try and see it from his point of view. People like this should be our teachers. We should understand them, so we can defeat the problem. This stuff reminds me so much about US issues with terrorism: To some, terrorists must me non-human monsters, and all attempts to make them human means you're making excuses for their action, when that denies us our most powerful weapon to defeat terrorism: Empathy and understanding. Know your enemy, or you'll never defeat him.

The most recent episode of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit was basically a copy of the Chris Brown & Rihanna story, right down to the leaked photos of her smashed face. The faux-Chris' name was practically a giant wink: Caleb Bryant. The only difference is that pseudo-Chris killed not-Rihanna at the end, but i'm sure that life will imitate art soon enough.

Hopefully, Rihanna put down her bong long enough to read that article and get the hell away from Chris before he totally goes OJ on her ass.

IF NO- it's okay to be nice and do favors for her. She's your friend, just like your male friends. There's not supposed to be any sexual tension here.

IF YES- be amicable, but do not be her friend. Do not do any favors for her. Do not sit on the phone listening to her talk about her boyfriend "Look, I don't have time for this." Do not drive her to the airport. Don't go see Sex in the City 3 with her. Make your intentions known from the offset. She knows whether or not she wants to date or have sex with you fairly soon after meeting you. You aren't going to trick a girl into liking you. She If she has a boyfriend, ignore her until she doesn't. If you become her lap dog and do favors for her, you are in the friend zone. You're the kinda creepy guy that she knows has a crush on her but she has absolutely no interest in dating. If a girl spurns your advances, game's up- ignore her and move on. There are literally dozens of women out there that would probably date you. At the outset of a potential relationship, women don't want men who are willing to do everything for them. They want men who have a back bone and who are willing to say no to their stupid requests. Tell her you're busy even if you just want to sit around and watch futurama. Not being at her beck and call will get you laid more than being there for her.

Once you've landed a few actual girlfriends or sexual encounters, you can adjust the strategy a little bit.

IF NO- it's okay to be nice and do favors for her. She's your friend, just like your male friends. There's not supposed to be any sexual tension here.

IF YES- be amicable, but do not be her friend. Do not do any favors for her. Do not sit on the phone listening to her talk about her boyfriend "Look, I don't have time for this." Do not drive her to the airport. Don't go see Sex in the City 3 with her. Make your intentions known from the offset. She knows whether or not she wants to date or have sex with you fairly soon after meeting you. You aren't going to trick a girl into liking you. She If she has a boyfriend, ignore her until she doesn't. If you become her lap dog and do favors for her, you are in the friend zone. You're the kinda creepy guy that she knows has a crush on her but she has absolutely no interest in dating. If a girl spurns your advances, game's up- ignore her and move on. There are literally dozens of women out there that would probably date you. At the outset of a potential relationship, women don't want men who are willing to do everything for them. They want men who have a back bone and who are willing to say no to their stupid requests. Tell her you're busy even if you just want to sit around and watch futurama. Not being at her beck and call will get you laid more than being there for her.

Once you've landed a few actual girlfriends or sexual encounters, you can adjust the strategy a little bit.

You wore out your DVD of "The Tao Of Steve", didn't you? 8^)

I've never seen that movie. Is it any good?

From Wikipedia: The Tao of Steve is a 2000 romantic comedy film written by Duncan North, Greer Goodman, and Jenniphr Goodman. It is directed by Jenniphr Goodman and stars Donal Logue and Greer Goodman.

Dex (Logue) is a seemingly unlikely Lothario - an overweight, thirtysomething underachiever - who has developed an effective method for seducing women. He meets up with Syd, an old college conquest whom he can't remember. She never forgot him, however, and slowly falls for the lures of the "Tao of Steve", Dex's personal philosophy in which one combines a Taoist outlook with the qualities embodied by TV characters such as Steve Austin (The Six Million Dollar Man) and Steve McGarrett (Hawaii Five-O) and, above all, by the actor Steve McQueen.

IF NO- it's okay to be nice and do favors for her. She's your friend, just like your male friends. There's not supposed to be any sexual tension here.

IF YES- be amicable, but do not be her friend. Do not do any favors for her. Do not sit on the phone listening to her talk about her boyfriend "Look, I don't have time for this." Do not drive her to the airport. Don't go see Sex in the City 3 with her. Make your intentions known from the offset. She knows whether or not she wants to date or have sex with you fairly soon after meeting you. You aren't going to trick a girl into liking you. She If she has a boyfriend, ignore her until she doesn't. If you become her lap dog and do favors for her, you are in the friend zone. You're the kinda creepy guy that she knows has a crush on her but she has absolutely no interest in dating. If a girl spurns your advances, game's up- ignore her and move on. There are literally dozens of women out there that would probably date you. At the outset of a potential relationship, women don't want men who are willing to do everything for them. They want men who have a back bone and who are willing to say no to their stupid requests. Tell her you're busy even if you just want to sit around and watch futurama. Not being at her beck and call will get you laid more than being there for her.

Once you've landed a few actual girlfriends or sexual encounters, you can adjust the strategy a little bit.

You wore out your DVD of "The Tao Of Steve", didn't you? 8^)

I've never seen that movie. Is it any good?

From Wikipedia: The Tao of Steve is a 2000 romantic comedy film written by Duncan North, Greer Goodman, and Jenniphr Goodman. It is directed by Jenniphr Goodman and stars Donal Logue and Greer Goodman.

Dex (Logue) is a seemingly unlikely Lothario - an overweight, thirtysomething underachiever - who has developed an effective met ...

Yeah, I looked it up earlier. It's got that guy from Terriers. Is it any good?

IF NO- it's okay to be nice and do favors for her. She's your friend, just like your male friends. There's not supposed to be any sexual tension here.

IF YES- be amicable, but do not be her friend. Do not do any favors for her. Do not sit on the phone listening to her talk about her boyfriend "Look, I don't have time for this." Do not drive her to the airport. Don't go see Sex in the City 3 with her. Make your intentions known from the offset. She knows whether or not she wants to date or have sex with you fairly soon after meeting you. You aren't going to trick a girl into liking you. She If she has a boyfriend, ignore her until she doesn't. If you become her lap dog and do favors for her, you are in the friend zone. You're the kinda creepy guy that she knows has a crush on her but she has absolutely no interest in dating. If a girl spurns your advances, game's up- ignore her and move on. There are literally dozens of women out there that would probably date you. At the outset of a potential relationship, women don't want men who are willing to do everything for them. They want men who have a back bone and who are willing to say no to their stupid requests. Tell her you're busy even if you just want to sit around and watch futurama. Not being at her beck and call will get you laid more than being there for her.

Once you've landed a few actual girlfriends or sexual encounters, you can adjust the strategy a little bit.

You wore out your DVD of "The Tao Of Steve", didn't you? 8^)

I've never seen that movie. Is it any good?

From Wikipedia: The Tao of Steve is a 2000 romantic comedy film written by Duncan North, Greer Goodman, and Jenniphr Goodman. It is directed by Jenniphr Goodman and stars Donal Logue and Greer Goodman.

Dex (Logue) is a seemingly unlikely Lothario - an overweight, thirtysomething underachiever - who has developed ...

To me, this shouldn't be put in the same light as "she dressed provocatively, therefore rape" scenarios.

Some people in this country need an education on how to determine with whom they should associate; women in particular*, and ESPECIALLY those with children. Kids can't choose their parents or guardians, and they should never be put in situations like this. EVER. What the f*ck was this woman thinking, that she was getting some poor, misunderstood eccentric man who finally turned it all around? That DOES happen, but this man did not have a shred of Billy Moore** on his face.

When kids are put in harm's way, SOME OF THE BLAME must go to the mother. Not all, not most, not even a measurable percentage, but SOME of it. I've seen how these kinds of people behave, and I'm thankful I never had to be involved first-hand; but I never would have had to handle it, either way, because my mom had no qualms about leaving her first husband because of his reckless attitude (though he never was physically violent with her to my knowledge, he had a temper that was escalating). One somewhat distant relative, however, never learned that lesson over the course of many (violent) marriages, and she's somewhat lucky that one of her kids grew up to be a very large individual who is defensive of his mom.

*I say that because nobody gives two shiats if a 20-year-old guy is starting to hang around with people of an unfavorable nature**see: Benji Wilson

This thread is dying its natural death of old age, but there are still a couple of points I'd like to make:

1.

Yogimus:No responsibility means there was nothing they could do... means there is nothing they CAN do.

No.

Just no.

For example, it's not your fault if someone hacks your state's tax department computers and steals your personal data (yes, that just happened to me, and tens of thousands of other people). You have no responsibility for that happening. You couldn't have done jack to stop it. However, there are things you CAN do as a result of it, such as notifying credit agencies and preventing people (unfortunately, including yourself) from setting up any billing for anything in your name. Just because there was nothing you could do to doesn't mean there's nothing you can do.

Furthermore, not taking all possible steps to prevent a criminal from perpetrating a crime on you does not mean that the crime is your fault. Criminals, not victims, are guilty of crimes (that's why we put muggers in jail, not the people who get mugged).

How far do you want to go blaming the victim? If someone gets mugged, it's his fault because he shouldn't have been anywhere he could be mugged? If someone's working in a convenience store and gets shot during a robbery, he shouldn't have been working in that convenience store? If someone's waiting in line at the bank and gets killed by a bank robber who decides shooting a customer will make everyone cooperate, he should have done business with a different bank? Even if he was picking up his employer's daily deposit receipt, and didn't have much choice about the time or place? Oh, it's his fault because he worked for that company, and he should have known that when they sent him to the bank to pick up the receipts, it would be when it was robbed, and when it was robbed, a bank robber would kill him, etc?

That sounds farking ridiculous, doesn't it?

We don't blame any of those people for being the victims of crime. Only women who are abused and woman who are raped. We blame them. For some reason, they're the only ones who should bear all of the blame for "their choices" and the criminal who committed an act of violence should bear none.

Yogimus, I don't know if you're trolling or really that way, but neither option is a positive one.

What I find extremely disturbing in the reader reactions to this story, on Fark, on Time, and elsewhere, is that people blame Maggie, the person who was beaten up, for being abused (some have even called her a child abuser because her children saw Shane beating her). A lot have blamed the photographer, too, for not somehow stopping the abuse. The only person who gets a free pass ... is Shane Layberger.

"Allow me to clarify. I am a 5'2" woman. I am not physically equipped to do what you are suggesting. There were two other adults there who were much larger than I am, and both individuals were too scared to do anything."

Now, take a look at Shane there. I'd guess he's about 5'8" tall, possibly taller. So he's at least six inches taller than the photographer. He's male. And he seems to be in excellent physical condition (he was clearly working out in prison). You really think a young woman is going to physically attack an enraged man, one that much bigger than she is, and almost certainly in much better shape? You think she's going to do it when the two other people in the house are afraid to? And you think he, in the heat of rage and adrenaline, isn't just going to knock her cold with one hit when her physical intervention makes her a target instead of a bystander? From the look of her, Maggie is much closer to Shane's height, yet she didn't do anything to stop him from abusing her -- if she couldn't, physically, then how could anyone expect a photographer six inches shorter to do anything useful?

Also, regarding the quality of the photography: First, since she was shooting in the house, in that lighting, to begin with, before the violence started, she would have her camera already set up for the conditions. Another significant factor is that there are exactly 6 photographs out of the 39 that show the incident itself, and several of them are, well, not what I would call good pictures. Now, a couple of weeks ago I took a superb (in my opinion, anyway) picture of a black-and-white warbler. The bird is in a patch of sunlight, nicely posed, with no confusing background, etc. Why is that particular picture good? Because it's the best one out of 43 pictures I took of that bird as it flew all over the trees in front of me. That's the wonderful thing about a digital camera: you can do that. I have one really good picture, a few decent ones, and a remarkable number of pictures of bird butts, half a bird behind a tree branch, trees where a bird isn't any more, etc. She probably got 5 decent pictures because she got 50 bad ones. It's not like the film days, when bad pictures cost money. You'll note that picture #20 in the sequence, the 6th of the abuse pictures, is badly blurred. Too much motion for that shutter speed. If it had been set up, she'd have used better lighting!

Again, Sara Lewkowitz (the photographer) was not alone. She was one of three adults witnessing the abuse. Out of the other two, one called 911 when she gave him a phone and told him to do it. The other did nothing. Either or both of them were physically capable of doing more than Sara could, in addition to at least one of them having standing as the owner of the house, and yet they did not intervene. This suggests to me that the cops are right, physical intervention would not have been a good idea, and certainly not a safe one. What she did do, taking those six photos (and presumably dozens more that never saw the light of Web), is undoubtedly some of the evidence that put Shane back in prison.

I should point out, by the way, that the children's father knocked up a 15-year-old girl. That doesn't really make him a winner in my book either. He was stationed in Afghanistan, where Maggie couldn't follow, then in Alaska, which wouldn't have been much closer than Afghanistan to someone who had never lived more than a few minutes from the home of whoever (grandmother?) raised her after her mother died

One of the comments on Time, with regard to why we want to blame the victim, not the criminal, was telling:It is because we all like to believe that we are smarter and better than the victim. That makes us feel safer in a world that is decidedly unsafe.

We do that all the time. We'd never date that person, go out in that boat, go to that club, eat that deep-fried lard, whatever it was that someone did before something bad happened to them. We're all safe like that. Except, of course, bad things happen to us anyway. If any one of us listed the bad things that had happened to them in the past year, all the rest of us with our 20/20 hindsight (not to mention our keen perception of what other people should be doing) could point out everywhere they should have done something different.

Anyway, I'm done. It's doubtful if anyone will read this; the thread's long dead. See y'all in the next one. :)

ciberido:Kensey: Here's the big issue I have with all the "nice guy" hate that's been flying around lately: a lot of nice guys(tm) who lament their role in such terms are put in that role by a woman they know. These nice-guys-tm didn't seek it out and most often wish the woman in question would go away. They're not mooning over her -- they're hearing about her asshole boyfriend/husband and what a jerk he is and thinking "So dump his ass and go find a guy like you claim to want instead, you giant idiot". But here's the thing, not being raging assholes themselves, they wouldn't ever be so blunt as to say that, and if they did it would provoke the recitation of a litany of reasons why the woman in question couldn't or shouldn't dump the zero and find a hero.

And this is the heart of the problem. The "nice guy" in your example is man pretending to be friends with a woman he secretly thinks is an idiot, and because he hides (or at least TRIES to hide) from her the fact that he thinks she's an idiot, that makes him a "nice guy" women should want to date --- but won't, because they're idiots.

You're missing my point. First of all, we all have that "friend" that is a friend only because the awkwardness of telling them to fark off and then not being able to avoid them (see: co-worker, roommate's significant other) would be more annoying than they themselves are. Second, I said nothing about this being a presumed desirable attribute (or all women being idiots), except insofar as the attribute of "not being a flaming jerk all the time" is, one might think, at least part of the baseline "dating material" set.

It's the difference between putting yourself out there as a nice guy (stalker), and somebody making youtheir "nice guy" (shoulder to angst on) whether you will or no.

It's interesting to see all the backlash against the nice guy paradigm going around lately. I thought it was a pretty common knowledge point that jerks are more attractive on a primal level, especially to younger women, and also, that people, not just women, are often pretty bad at knowing what's good for them when pursuing relationships. Now, it seems like a new school of thought is trying to take over, but I'm not sure where it came from.