Line one of her sig
Line two of her sig
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From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 16:50:16 2000
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Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:17:33 -0800
To: allan@msic.dia.mil
From: SRE
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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At 01:18 PM 11/1/00, Allan Newsome wrote:
>One thing I don't think most of you picked up on is that I am the
>owner of the list and I run the list but I do not own the servers the
>list runs on so I don't have root access to be able to install and run
>Demime.
That's a problem. Perhaps the owner of the system would agree to do
it if you pointed out that NOT distributing thousands of bulky HTML
files to the entire list would really help system performance!
>Am I miss understanding or can users with ftp access to their
>cgi-bin use Demime? I don't think I/they can....let me know if I'm wrong.
You need to be able to run demime SOMEWHERE, not necessarily on the
same system as the server. Do you have access to email aliases?
Can you change the ones used by your list server? If so, change the
server and list posting aliases to point at addresses that can run
demime, on the same host or not, then have that address pipe its
output to another alias that feeds the server software.
Did that make sense? Here's a sample sendmail alias for Mj2,
probably the details are different for 1.9x or other software:
majordomo: "|/usr/local/bin/perl -wT /usr/local/demime/demime.pl lists@XXX.org"
lists: "|/usr/local/majordomo/bin/mj_enqueue -m -d XXX.org"
Sending mail to "majordomo@XXX.org" runs demime, demime sends mail to
"lists@XXX.org" where it is processed for server commands. Note that
majordomo@XXX.org could point to an address on another host, and THAT
address could run demime and send results back to lists@XXX.org.
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 17:05:18 2000
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From: "Alan S. Harrell"
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:14:08 -0600
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Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
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On 1 Nov 2000, 16:15, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
> and do you tell them to use only a black and white TV, to?
Nope.
> Crank their Model A?
Nope.
> churn their own butter after milking their cow?
Nope.
> You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost.
Sez you. In my little corner of the Internet, I am winning this
battle. Listowners who have apprenticed under me know the value of
keeping a discussion mailing list "text only," and follow in step to
this doctrine. ASCII text is the only egalitarian method we have for
email and that is paramount for free and unencumbered discussion in
mailing lists. This is not about stifling progress, Chuq, as you
alluded with your questions, but rather making sure that free
discussion is not abated. HTML stifles free discussion because it
inhibits some members of a discussion group to participate freely in
the ongoing discussion.
The losers in this battle are those who gave up or those who succumb to
the lure of commercial brainwashing. As long as you can keep fighting,
you have not lost. As long as I have the tools to keep HTML-mail and
HTML-mail-users off my list, then I can continue to win. As long as
those whom I have influence over continue to see the logic in my
message, then I will never feel I've lost.
> All you're really going to do down the road is convince folks to not
> bother with your lists, except your own increasingly limited
> brotherhood of already-convinced like-thinkers.
That remains to be seen, but so far I've not encountered any problems
with my posture. If anything, my "brotherhood" as you call it, is
generally accepted by those that associate with me on the Internet.
Alan
ashandrr@mastnet.net
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 17:20:21 2000
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From: "David W. Tamkin"
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Subject: Re: [nanook@eskimo.com: Netzero.Net Cause Mail Problems]
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:29:17 -0600 (CST)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <20001030183902.B12186@gsp.org> from "Rich Kulawiec" at Oct 30, 2000 06:39:02 PM
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Rich Kulawiec quoted a Usenet post by Robert Dinse:
D> Netzero has apparently implimented a brilliant policy of bouncing e-mail
D> that sits in a netzero mailbox for more than six months.
D> This caused severe problems this morning as mail from a list was all
D> returned by netzero enmasse ...
Michael Johnson responded,
J> If I understand NetZero's error messages correctly, they successfully
J> delivered mail to a user who decided not to read it.
Not exactly (though the misunderstanding is NetZero's fault for saying "sat
unread in the mailbox" and not the fault of Michael's reading). NetZero does
not provide a webmail interface; you have to get your mail by POP3. There-
fore they see the situation as their having successfully accepted mail for
a downstream system, but the message will be deemed delivered only when the
downstream system polls them to pick it up. Thus they consider this a fail-
ure to complete delivery that requires an NDN.
Suppose a domain gets its mail through an MX host; if mail for an address in
that domain reaches the MX host but the end system has not picked it up, is
it not undelivered? Shouldn't the MX host bounce it to the sender if the end
system doesn't pick it up within a reasonable amount of time?
If NetZero offered webmail as well as POP3 or instead of it, then the message
would be available to the end recipient by means other than a mail transport
protocol, and it could be considered delivered when it reached NetZero, and
the customer's neglecting to read it would not justify a bounce.
J> I don't expect to receive any error messages regarding successfully
J> delivered e-mail.
In NetZero's view, the mail was not delivered successfully. The NDN really
should have said that the message sat unfetched in the customer's mail queue,
not that it sat unread in the mailbox.
Tim Pierce wrote,
P> Our list managers are getting thousands of them at a pop.
P> We do consider it a serious problem, and I am sorely tempted to block the
P> domain until they fix it.
The flood was caused by their first implementing the policy and returning at
once all unfetched messages from the inception of NetZero until six months
before the torrent. On a list for NetZero users where several NetZero em-
ployees post, one of the latter said that henceforth mailboxes would be
cleared of old unfetched mail at intervals no greater than two weeks, so
there should be no repetitions of that initial downpour.
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 18:05:15 2000
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:29:58 -0500 (EST)
From: murr rhame
To: Chuq Von Rospach
Cc: ASHandRR@mastnet.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
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On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
> You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long
> lost. All you're really going to do down the road is convince
> folks to not bother with your lists, except your own
> increasingly limited brotherhood of already-convinced
> like-thinkers.
They said radio would kill off newspapers 75yrs ago. The
validity of ASCII-only depends on the style, content and
intrinsic value of the list in question Chuq. I only accept
ASCII and I don't anticipate changing in the near future. If
people start to bail, complain in large numbers or another list
on the same topic uses HTML and attracts a significant number of
subscribers, I'll consider a change. Until then, my experience
says ASCII is fine for what I do. I have no objection to other
lists accommodating HTML or any other format the admin chooses to
allow. Just don't try and tell me ASCII is dead. It works for
me.
- murr -
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 19:05:35 2000
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From: "Rachel Blackman"
To:
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Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:28:00 -0800
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> > You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost.
>
> Sez you. In my little corner of the Internet, I am winning this
> battle. Listowners who have apprenticed under me know the value of
> keeping a discussion mailing list "text only," and follow in step to
> this doctrine. ASCII text is the only egalitarian method we have for
> email and that is paramount for free and unencumbered discussion in
> mailing lists. This is not about stifling progress, Chuq, as you
> alluded with your questions, but rather making sure that free
> discussion is not abated. HTML stifles free discussion because it
> inhibits some members of a discussion group to participate freely in
> the ongoing discussion.
I didn't read Chuq's argument as saying that progress was being stifled...
just that people /will/ move on, and eventually, people will either find
that remaining behind is crippling to them or be forced to move on as well.
What you say about HTML stifling free discussion because it inhibits members
from participating reminds me an awful lot about what I read in a history
book about people saying about the telephone when it first came out... that
it was 'elitist' and that 'people who don't have this newfangled thing can
no longer communicate with their friends, why don't people just stick to
postal mail?'
While I /personally/ happen to think plaintext e-mail makes more sense and
is friendlier overall, the vast numbers of new users of the Internet are
being introduced to e-mail as a bright, colorful way of communicating.
Doubtless, the people who wanted the phone left behind had /good/ reasons
for it - there's something nice about a handwritten letter which can be kept
and treasured, and shown to descendants, and letters can often be more deep,
and thought-out. Especially in those early days when most phone calls were
just to enjoy the novelty of it, much like how HTML e-mail is often used
these days. ("Hey, look! I can send CoLoR and FOnTs! And !")
While it's nice to take the attitude that 'we were here first, the Internet
should run the way we want it to', it won't happen. All doing things like
making mailing list software not function with HTML e-mail does is annoy
users and make them go use some other, flashier, Microsoft-written mailing
list product or something. ;)
Now, I'm not saying HTML should be embraced, but things like demime are a
good idea; it makes existing technology coexist with new technology.
Simply saying 'HTML e-mail is bad and should be banned' as I've heard many
people, including a number of my own friends, say may be idealistically
sound, but it's also unrealistic in expectation. HTML e-mail is, like it or
not, probably here to stay, and it's likely only going to grow. I, for one,
am just glad they went with HTML and not something like RTF, which would've
been far harder to parse. :)
--R
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 19:20:13 2000
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Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:38:36 -0600
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: Adam Bailey
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On 11/1/00 3:18 PM, Allan Newsome wrote...
>>> Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of
>>> sending email in "Plain Text" format.
>>
>> What HTML are you seeing? I never get any when I use AOL 6, but I don't
>> use any unusual fonts or formatting. That may be the culprit.
>
>I have been seeing:
>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>
>And the second part of the email has the "html" content:
>
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>That shows up using AOL 6.0 with no special characters, fonts,
>formatting or anything else that would cause it to become "html"
The formatting is there. People are using fonts other than the default,
which AOL 6 decides is their intention to use HTML. Have them switch back
to the defalt.
--
Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois
adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP
adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 19:35:14 2000
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:45:12 -0800
To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
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At 7:14 PM -0600 11/1/00, Alan S. Harrell wrote:
> > You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost.
>
>Sez you. In my little corner of the Internet, I am winning this
>battle.
I wish you luck then. you and the buggy whip manufacturers. I hope
you get what you want out of this. But what I've found when you fight
these things instead of deal with them is that you get an
increasingly inbred, shrinking population of the same old pharts,
because everyone who might be new blood looks and then goes
elsewhere. And unless you're looking for what you aren't getting, you
don't notice.
Now, if all you want is to cater to the same old crew as they die off
one by one without being replaced, great...
--
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Be just, and fear not.
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 20:20:13 2000
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:23:06 -0800
To: "Rachel Blackman" ,
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
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At 7:28 PM -0800 11/1/00, Rachel Blackman wrote:
>I didn't read Chuq's argument as saying that progress was being stifled...
>just that people /will/ move on, and eventually, people will either find
>that remaining behind is crippling to them or be forced to move on as well.
Thanks, RAchel, for saying what I tried to say. if you put hurdles in
front of your potential members, you'll get a few, but mostly,
they'll go find someone who doesn't and use their service instead.
That's okay if you don't WANT new members, or only want some
pre-defined vision of what a "good" member is, but it's a way to
cause your user base to stagnate and shrivel. I'm not even saying you
have to support stuff -- just deal with it rationally. And slapping
users for something that's not under their control isn't dealing with
it rationally. Demime is a perfectly good alternative. Saying "turn
off that stuff or else" isn't.
I know this from experience, and once I realized what was happening
it was a real eye opener. This is no longer a place where you are The
Only Source For Your Thing, and even if you are, you're 30 seconds
from having a new competitor at egroups. And egroups is a lot easier
for most users to find.
And if that's okay with you, great -- but it's the same as the guy
who decided to keep making buggy whips when the car was invented. You
might keep right on making buggy whips for a long time, but your
clientele will shrink, age and slowly die off, until you do, too. And
AOL going "no text" isn't just inventing the car, it's waking up one
morning to the interstate highway system....
And here's another note. We've done formal user surveys,
professionally done. And they've shown, quite clearly, that 70-80%
want HTML e-mail. If you think the users don't want this stuff,
you're fooling yourself. I enjoy my DVD's of the 60's Avengers in
black and white, but I don't pretend that's how TV ought to be
today...
But this argument isn't new to the list, and the buggy whip cabal
will continue to insist on making buggy whips and if they're happy,
that's fine. But let's not pretend that 1995 was the epitome of
e-mail systems and it's all been downhill from there....
>While I /personally/ happen to think plaintext e-mail makes more sense and
>is friendlier overall, the vast numbers of new users of the Internet are
>being introduced to e-mail as a bright, colorful way of communicating.
I was convinced the day my mom asked for help setting up her buddy
list, so they could IM to each other.... When 75 year old women are
adopting all this stuff, you can't pretend it's a fad.
--
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Be just, and fear not.
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 20:35:14 2000
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Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
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In-Reply-To: "Rachel Blackman"'s message of "Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:28:00 -0800"
From: Russ Allbery
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: 01 Nov 2000 20:48:59 -0800
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Rachel Blackman writes:
> While I /personally/ happen to think plaintext e-mail makes more sense
> and is friendlier overall, the vast numbers of new users of the Internet
> are being introduced to e-mail as a bright, colorful way of
> communicating. Doubtless, the people who wanted the phone left behind
> had /good/ reasons for it - there's something nice about a handwritten
> letter which can be kept and treasured, and shown to descendants, and
> letters can often be more deep, and thought-out.
And notice that we still have both, in different areas, for different
purposes.
But I hardly think that HTML e-mail is as revolutionary as the telephone.
I've seen a lot of people who like the idea of bright, colorful e-mail,
until they've read their fourth letter of bright purple on dark green, and
then they're a bit tired of it. One of the problem with HTML e-mail is
that it puts you at the mercy of other people's layout sense and most
people are abominably bad at laying out text, one of the first things that
most books that teach TeX or LaTeX try to correctly pound into your head.
Insofar as HTML or other marked-up e-mail has real advantages over plain
text, it will eventually catch on over plain text in those areas. And
that's just as it should be. So far, I've not seen much to be "worried"
about in terms of superiority of HTML over plain text; I have actually
encountered one newsletter that I prefer to read in HTML, and for the rest
the HTML is substanially less readable than plain text would have been.
--
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 20:52:01 2000
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Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 20:40:58 -0800
To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net
From: SRE
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost>
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At 03:30 PM 11/1/00, Alan S. Harrell wrote:
>the subscribers would continue to happily and merrily send
>email using HTML, both on my lists and all over the Internet
That's "what is".
>my goal is to teach them NOT to use HTML with email
That's "what should be", in your reality. I'm afraid the global
reality is different, but either way many people don't want to
be "taught", and will simply stop posting or leave the list.
I'm not criticizing your point of view, mine used to be the same.
I figured it took less time in the long run to teach every Outlook
user how to turn off text formatting than it did to send majordomo
commands for them. I was wrong, because many of them NEVER learned.
>Listowners who have apprenticed under me know the value of
>keeping a discussion mailing list "text only," and follow in step to
>this doctrine. ASCII text is the only egalitarian method we have for
>email and that is paramount for free and unencumbered discussion in
>mailing lists.
That's not the question. The question is whether you can allow some
people to post one way and some to post another, while DISTRIBUTING
only plain text. Who cares what mail tool they use to send it?
Who cares whether that mail tool sticks in stuff if you can easily
remove it? Is it a vendetta against HTML, or are you really just
trying to keep your list output clean?
In the end, I chose to enable them rather than disable people, and
my overall workload has dropped dramatically. No more command
parser errors to explain. No more adding and removing people who
can't configure their mail tool. That's what is.
SRE
mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/
Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world:
the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 21:05:15 2000
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From: "Roger B.A. Klorese"
To: Adam Bailey
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
In-Reply-To: <200011020338.VAA24646@mail.xnet.com>
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On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Adam Bailey wrote:
> The formatting is there. People are using fonts other than the default,
> which AOL 6 decides is their intention to use HTML. Have them switch back
> to the defalt.
I sent myself a message simply by clicking the "Write" icon, adding my
non-AOL address, and one word each of sucject and body. This is what I
got:
>From rogerk@queernet.org Wed Nov 1 21:08:09 2000 -0800
Status: R
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
Return-Path:
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--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 21:51:05 2000
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:07:03 -0800
To: Russ Allbery , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
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At 8:48 PM -0800 11/1/00, Russ Allbery wrote:
>But I hardly think that HTML e-mail is as revolutionary as the telephone.
no, but it is as significant as black&white -> color TV, or vinyl
records -> CD. you can argue all you want that LPs are better tahn
CD's, and audiophiles still do, but unless you're an audiophile,
nobody cares. and on the internet, you can talk all you want about
plain text, but the reality is, it's rapidly turning into the LP of
the e-mail world.
--
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Be just, and fear not.
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 22:05:15 2000
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<00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net>
In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:07:03 -0800"
From: Russ Allbery
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: 01 Nov 2000 22:28:38 -0800
Message-ID:
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Chuq Von Rospach writes:
> At 8:48 PM -0800 11/1/00, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> But I hardly think that HTML e-mail is as revolutionary as the
>> telephone.
> no, but it is as significant as black&white -> color TV, or vinyl records
> -> CD.
Sorry, Chuq, but I don't believe that either. :) My plain text e-mail is
in very nice color, highlighting important information, without any markup
put in by the sender at all. This would be true if there were no way of
doing that before HTML, but that's false.
I have a mail reader that lets me read mail in HTML quite easily and well,
including inlined graphics. I receive both types of mail on a regular
basis. By and large the plain text mail is more readable because I know
what information is important to *me* and therefore have my mail reader
configured to correctly highlight that information, and the presentation
skills of the people who write the HTML is abominable.
There are occasional exceptions, where people put real effort into making
a nice presentation in HTML e-mail, and in those particular cases I like
the results.
I don't expect to see this happen for discussions for the simple reason
that it's too much work to do it well and if not done well, it looks worse
than if you just don't do it at all. This is independent of markup
language; this is just a general fact about adding markup to text via any
mechanism.
While you're going on about the future of technology, I'm looking at the
*actual capabilities of the technology* and going "sure, that's cool in
some situations, but this is hardly revolutionary stuff."
--
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)
From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 23:05:13 2000
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:23:37 -0800
To: Russ Allbery , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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At 10:28 PM -0800 11/1/00, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > no, but it is as significant as black&white -> color TV, or vinyl records
>> -> CD.
>
>Sorry, Chuq, but I don't believe that either. :)
time will prove one of us right... The rest is speculation and
posturing (except me. I never posture.. grin)
>While you're going on about the future of technology, I'm looking at the
>*actual capabilities of the technology* and going "sure, that's cool in
>some situations, but this is hardly revolutionary stuff."
funny, I feel like saying the same about you, but...
--
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Be just, and fear not.
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 04:50:19 2000
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From: "William H. Geiger III"
Reply-To: "William H. Geiger III"
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 06:58:54 -0500
To: Allan Newsome
In-Reply-To: <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil>
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.2a/20
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In <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil>, on 11/01/00
at 03:18 PM, Allan Newsome said:
>One thing I don't think most of you picked up on is that I am the owner
>of the list and I run the list but I do not own the servers the list runs
>on so I don't have root access to be able to install and run Demime. Am
>I miss understanding or can users with ftp access to their cgi-bin use
>Demime? I don't think I/they can....let me know if I'm wrong.
You need to get a better shell account. :)
The shell account I have allows me to telnet into the machine and do prety
much anything I want within the confines of my user rights & quota.
Find out if your account is running procmail. For those who don't know
procmail is a *nix mail filtering program. It is used to process incomming
mail before it is delivered. You can run DeMIME from procmail, it will
convert the message before it is sent to majordomo.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting
Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 05:05:55 2000
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Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 08:27:11 -0500
From: Tom Neff
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: HTML based email
Message-ID: <2491022113.973153631@[192.168.1.101]>
In-Reply-To: <200011020900.BAA26962@honor.greatcircle.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.5 (Win32)
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All I know is that when clarity of communication is MOST important, as it
is on a functional list like this one, we do it in plain text without
giving it a second thought.
HTML and rich-text email is prevalent for the solitary reason that some
client software vendors started distributing software that enables it by
default.
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 05:35:39 2000
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Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:50:54 -0500
From: Dave Sill
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
In-Reply-To:
References: <200011011854.MAA14742@mail.xnet.com>
<3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil>
X-Mailer: VM 6.76 under 21.1 "20 Minutes to Nikko" XEmacs Lucid (patch 2)
Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA
X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote:
>If the plain text is the first part, then Majordomo (or any other MLM
>that can't handle HTML in the control messages) should have no
>problems.
Sure it will. The first lines of the message will be MIME junk that
Majordomo doesn't understand, e.g.:
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3054648371_239913_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
subscribe alpha-osf-managers
--MS_Mac_OE_3054648371_239913_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
etc.
-Dave
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 08:05:37 2000
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Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:24:00 -0600
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: Adam Bailey
To:
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On 11/1/00 11:29 PM, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote...
>On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Adam Bailey wrote:
>> The formatting is there. People are using fonts other than the default,
>> which AOL 6 decides is their intention to use HTML. Have them switch back
>> to the defalt.
>
>I sent myself a message simply by clicking the "Write" icon, adding my
>non-AOL address, and one word each of sucject and body. This is what I
>got:
Yes, I was wrong. I'm sorry for the confusion.
For several months I tested AOL 6 specifically on the HTML mail issue,
until I could confirm that it was *not* sending any, only receiving it.
Then AOL apparently decided I need to be made to look the fool, and
changed this behavior in later revisions. I apologize, and share the
opinion of those on this list that think that AOL has made a very stupid
move.
--
Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois
adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP
adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 12:35:48 2000
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To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
From: Tim Bowden
Message-ID:
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 12:55:20 PST
In-Reply-To:
Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Chuq Von Rospach writes:
> Now, if all you want is to cater to the same old crew as they die off
> one by one without being replaced, great...
I for one would like to know about this Finishing School for HTML
(Horrid Toys Muddle Language) Denial. What's the topic, how many
subscribers? And would he employ exactly the same methodogoly against,
say, a recently-reunitied alumnus association from a small southern
community which to a member recalls the days when you had to give the
number to the operator to complete a voice call way back before it was
called a voice call?
tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden)
"The reason you can never go home again
is because you can never leave." - Timocrates
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 12:50:36 2000
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LEAVE
***************************
Important Warning!
***************************
This electronic communication (including any attached files) may contain
confidential and/or legally privileged information and is only intended for the
use of the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended
recipient, you do not have permission to read, use, disseminate, distribute,
copy or retain any part of this communication or its attachments in any form.
If this e-mail was sent to you by mistake, please take the time to notify the
sender so that they can identify the problem and avoid any more mistakes in
sending e-mail to you. The unauthorised use of information contained in this
communication or its attachments may result in legal action against any person
who uses it.
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 13:05:15 2000
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To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
From: Tim Bowden
Message-ID:
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 12:13:14 PST
In-Reply-To: <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net>
Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues...
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Oh, is it Historical Precedent Time?
After Marilyn poled down that river in 3-D, conventional wisdom
held that a movie patron after about 1958 had just better become
accustomed to those funny little cardboard bi-colored glasses if
he wanted to ever see a movie again.
And there were always the purists who held out for the Old Way.
Chaplin did City Lights as a silent a decade and a half after
sound became prominent.
But, like any school of fish, a phalanx will eventually bring
the whole troop along. Sound did happen for movies, color
came to TV, and HTML comes online.
My list came online in 1992, and we still run straight ASCII
through it. At one time, there was resistence against a web
presence. One egalitarian soul among us proclaimed, what of
the poor among us, who cannot afford Web access, but must
feed among us as they are able with scraps and Juno?
He was convinced when free net hookups went in at the public
library.
And today we have freemail accounts which support HTML. Anybody can go
to Yahoo and see color and big fonts without spending a dime. I'm not
sure how long the rearguard action serves any purpose.
It sounds like an S&M scene. You will obey my dictum or suffer the
consequences. To me, this shows more respect for the mechanism than the
public it's supposedly set up to serve. Were I to employ such draconian
drama to one of the lists I operate, I would fluster and foil every
member. They're old, like me, and they don't understand, and nobody
will be able to educate them all. We find we can tolerate the odd HTML
smear quite well in that particular unit.
And I clean it out of the other list by hand. Because I care more for
the participation than the rules of engagement, which can be sometimes
very disengaging if overstressed. That's the secret to the differences
of opinions I see here. Some have large groups of relatively
sophisticated users and they don't mind offending a minority of them to
uphold appearances. It's like requiring an ascot at the club. You can
do that for the Ritz Carlton Old Boys, but not for a smalltown Kiwanis
with a declining membership.
--
An Ann Landers letter one year: "Oh, Ann, a panhandler approached me
this morning, what would you do?" Ann replied with a detailed
intenerary - she would take the bum to a restaurant, see him seated,
and, to prevent her contribution going to crack, pay the maitre 'd.
It was hilarious. Ann Landers spends no time on the street. She thinks
a panhandler is extremely rare. Likewise, some guides give us extensive
advice about how to handle instances of spam, each single occurance
requiring about fourteen hours work.
And some would spend their time stamping out the dread smear of HTML on
mailing lists.
tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden)
"The reason you can never go home again
is because you can never leave." - Timocrates
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 15:35:21 2000
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Subject: Re: LEAVE
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:58:40 -0600
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: Adam Bailey
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On 11/2/00 3:52 PM, peter.abma@immi.gov.au wrote...
>LEAVE
>
>
>
>***************************
>Important Warning!
>***************************
>This electronic communication (including any attached files) may contain
>confidential and/or legally privileged information and is only intended
>for the use of the person to whom it is addressed.
Does that mean I can't make fun of this guy because his message was
confidential?
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 18:04:51 2000
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From: "Alan S. Harrell"
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:12:09 -0600
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Subject: Re: LEAVE
Reply-To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net
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On 2 Nov 2000, 17:58, Adam Bailey wrote:
> On 11/2/00 3:52 PM, peter.abma@immi.gov.au wrote...
>
> >LEAVE
> >
> >
> >
> >***************************
> >Important Warning!
> >***************************
> >This electronic communication (including any attached files) may
> >contain confidential and/or legally privileged information and is only
> >intended for the use of the person to whom it is addressed.
>
> Does that mean I can't make fun of this guy because his message was
> confidential?
I've seen this disclaimer a few times before from subscribers on my
lists and others. One subscriber told me that his employer put that on
every outgoing message and he had no control over it.
Whether or not you find it offensive or in your case, grist for the
humor mill, you have to admit it is a little wasteful, bandwidth-wise.
I think were it ever to become prevalent on my lists, I might consider
bouncing those messages.
Alan
ASHandRR@MASTNET.net
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 19:35:46 2000
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Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:51:59 -0500
From: Tim Pierce
To: "Alan S. Harrell"
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: LEAVE
Message-ID: <20001102225159.P74368@ma-1.rootsweb.com>
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On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:12:09PM -0600, Alan S. Harrell wrote:
>
> > >***************************
> > >Important Warning!
> > >***************************
> > >This electronic communication (including any attached files) may
> > >contain confidential and/or legally privileged information and is only
> > >intended for the use of the person to whom it is addressed.
>
> I've seen this disclaimer a few times before from subscribers on my
> lists and others. One subscriber told me that his employer put that on
> every outgoing message and he had no control over it.
We haven't yet deliberately blocked mail with these notices, but
sometimes they trigger our spam filters (wording like "if this mail
has been sent in error...") or are rejected for similar reasons,
and I find myself completely uninterested in accommodating them.
It is still tempting to block them. It is even conceivable that,
should such a user accidentally send something confidential to one
of our lists, the company could try to hold us liable for any
damages they claim to suffer. In general I suggest to these users
that they subscribe from a home account or some other address that
is not subject to their employers' control.
--
Regards,
Tim Pierce
RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator
and Chief Hacking Officer
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 21:20:25 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:45:09 -0500
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Vince Sabio
Subject: Re: LEAVE
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** Sometime around 20:12 -0600 11/02/2000, Alan S. Harrell said:
>On 2 Nov 2000, 17:58, Adam Bailey wrote:
> > On 11/2/00 3:52 PM, peter.abma@immi.gov.au wrote...
> >
> > >LEAVE
Parents didn't raise you right, did they, Peter?
> > Does that mean I can't make fun of this guy because his message was
> > confidential?
We appear to have been the intended recipients (?), so it looks like
it's fair game.
>I've seen this disclaimer a few times before from subscribers on my
>lists and others. One subscriber told me that his employer put that on
>every outgoing message and he had no control over it.
Yep, I can confirm that there are employers who do that. Law firms
appear to be especially fond of the practice (law firms doing
something utterly inane; imagine that).
>Whether or not you find it offensive or in your case, grist for the
>humor mill, you have to admit it is a little wasteful, bandwidth-wise.
If it shuts down the to-HTML-or-not-to-HTML thread, I'm all for it.
Might even consider getting Pete back on the list, just so he can
leave every time another rhetorical topic comes up. Speaking of
which, anyone have the URL for the
reply-to-munging-considered-life-threatening page? I was describing
it to a particular list server developer, and he didn't believe that
the page was for real. I want him to see for himself.
>I think were it ever to become prevalent on my lists, I might consider
>bouncing those messages.
IMO, you'd be setting the bar for entry a little high. I try to tune
the filters to block only those things that the user has control over
-- such as long signatures (of the voluntary variety) and poor
quoting practices. But to each his own. After all, there's a reason
that there are many different lists -- and many different list
owners.
__________________________________________________________________________
Vince Sabio Got Bounces?
vince@vjs.org Got Jokes?
Got Spam?
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 00:20:23 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:44:13 +0000
From: Roger Burton West
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: LEAVE
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In-Reply-To: ; from vince@vjs.org on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:45:09AM -0500
X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Crescent (41% of Full)
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On or about Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:45:09AM -0500, Vince Sabio typed:
>Speaking of
>which, anyone have the URL for the
>reply-to-munging-considered-life-threatening page?
Every copy of SmartList contains a link:
http://garcon.unicom.com/FAQ/reply-to-harmful.html
Roger
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 07:35:27 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:19:51 -0500
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Todd Olson
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
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Hi
At 22:05 -0800 2000/11/01, list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM (List-Managers-Dige wrote:
>Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:15:30 -0800
>From: Chuq Von Rospach
>Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
>
>At 5:30 PM -0600 11/1/00, Alan S. Harrell wrote:
> >On my
> >lists, my goal is to teach them NOT to use HTML with email.
>
>and do you tell them to use only a black and white TV, to? Crank
>their Model A? churn their own butter after milking their cow?
>
>You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost. All
>you're really going to do down the road is convince folks to not
>bother with your lists, except your own increasingly limited
>brotherhood of already-convinced like-thinkers.
>
But we can promote a more creative solution!!!!
How about we lobby the e-mail client writers to add a feature
"Send an e-list command"
Then all a user would have to do is choose this option for that
message, and type in the appropriate command. The mail client would
take care of making the message be plain text, with no signature, etc.
Such a feature would set along side, fonts, styles, html, pdf, attachements,
etc ....
Then later if we create a MIME type for e-mail-list commands
and the majority of the MLM support it, then the e-mail clients
can just move to generating that instead, with out the users
having to know the difference.
For e-mail clients that have pluggable architectures (such as Eudora)
one could just create a plug in that provides command templates for
what ever MLM they are interacting with ....
Support costs go down all around.
users are happier
Anyone seen any reason *not* to promote this line of solution?
(something more constructive than, no one writer will ever listen)
In fact, Chuq, Apple has a great opportunity to take the high ground here.
They are planning to release a new mail client with Mac OS X.
If they make this mail client do something like the above, they
can make the Mac that much more friendly for the internet.
Regards,
Todd Olson
Cornell University E-List Admin Team
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 09:35:28 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:56:34 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Michael S. Johnson"
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: e-list commands in e-mail clients (was Re: HTML Based Email)
In-Reply-To:
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On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Todd Olson wrote:
> How about we lobby the e-mail client writers to add a feature
> "Send an e-list command"
The University of Washington's Pine version 4.20 is at least one
client that already supports this [1]: "Email list participation
headers recognized." See also RFC 2369 [2].
[1] http://www.washington.edu/pine/changes/4.10-to-4.20.html
[2] http://sunsite.dk/RFC/rfc/rfc2369.html
Hope this helps,
--
Michael S. Johnson Miyazaki Web and Mailing List Owner
michj@nausicaa.net www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/mailing-list
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 10:50:33 2000
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From: Tony Rose
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:57:31 -0500
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Broadcast List
Message-ID:
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I would like to configure a majordomo list so that no one can send
message to the list except for one person. It is to be used for news
broadcasting, and even the recipients should not be able to send to the
list.
What configuration of the .config file would allow for this function?
Thanks,
-tr
________________________
Tony Rose
UNIX Systems Administrator
Elon College
Voice: 336-278-5073
Fax: 336-278-5259
Email: Tony.Rose@elon.edu
________________________
"The truth is incontrovertible.
Malice may attack it and
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end, there it is."
Winston Churchill
________________________
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 12:20:38 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:29:18 -0800
To: Todd Olson , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
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At 10:19 AM -0500 11/3/00, Todd Olson wrote:
>Hi
>How about we lobby the e-mail client writers to add a feature
>"Send an e-list command"
A great idea, simply ask the authors of he clients you use to support
the list-* RFCs in a useful way.
>In fact, Chuq, Apple has a great opportunity to take the high ground here.
>They are planning to release a new mail client with Mac OS X.
>If they make this mail client do something like the above, they
>can make the Mac that much more friendly for the internet.
>
this isn't something I can really comment on -- but I will say if the
mail app engineers weren't aware of the RFCs before, they are now
that my list server is sending it to them. But I honestly don't know
what's on their schedule and what they have time for before initial
release, but I do know their release schedules are real tight, so if
it's in there, great. if it's not, it's not because of lack of
interest...
--
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Be just, and fear not.
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 13:35:24 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:54:52 -0500
From: "Nathan J. Mehl"
To: Chuq Von Rospach
Cc: Todd Olson , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Message-ID: <20001103165452.U3394@blank.org>
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In-Reply-To: ; from chuqui@plaidworks.com on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:29:18PM -0800
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In the immortal words of Chuq Von Rospach (chuqui@plaidworks.com):
>
> >In fact, Chuq, Apple has a great opportunity to take the high ground here.
> >They are planning to release a new mail client with Mac OS X.
> >If they make this mail client do something like the above, they
> >can make the Mac that much more friendly for the internet.
>
> this isn't something I can really comment on -- but I will say if the
> mail app engineers weren't aware of the RFCs before, they are now
> that my list server is sending it to them. But I honestly don't know
> what's on their schedule and what they have time for before initial
> release, but I do know their release schedules are real tight, so if
> it's in there, great. if it's not, it's not because of lack of
> interest...
Honestly, I'd be _amazed_ if that mail product actually made it into
the first release. I will be even more amazed if it does and is still
supported a year from now. (cf. Claris Emailer)
Apple has far too much incentive to keep Microsoft happy by pushing
Outlook Express, and no reason other than NeXTie pride to try to
ressurrect NeXTmail five years after a stake was finally driven
(deservedly) through its heart.
-n
------------------------------------------------------------
My motorcycle/
stands forlorn on Hurlbut Street.
The fucker won't start. (--me)
------------------------------------------------
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 14:35:29 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:56:17 -0500 (EST)
From: John R Levine
To: Tony Rose
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Broadcast List
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
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> What configuration of the .config file would allow for this function?
moderate = yes
That means that only someone who knows the Approve: password, i.e. you,
can post to the list.
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner
Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 15:35:39 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:57:10 +0000
From: Peter Galbavy
To: "Alan S. Harrell"
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: LEAVE
Message-ID: <20001103235706.A2734@office.knowledge.com>
References: <200011022358.RAA23522@mail.xnet.com> <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost>
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In-Reply-To: <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost>; from ashandrr@mastnet.net on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:12:09PM -0600
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On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:12:09PM -0600, Alan S. Harrell wrote:
> I've seen this disclaimer a few times before from subscribers on my
> lists and others. One subscriber told me that his employer put that on
> every outgoing message and he had no control over it.
>
> Whether or not you find it offensive or in your case, grist for the
> humor mill, you have to admit it is a little wasteful, bandwidth-wise.
>
> I think were it ever to become prevalent on my lists, I might consider
> bouncing those messages.
I have already asked one use to leave a mailing list I manage because
of this issue. Whether or not in (UK) law I or other list members (but
mainly me) may be liable for anything is a guess to yet be tested, but
I am not willing to either take that risk, or let stupid
people/companies/lawyers get the world used to this.
That particular mailing list is not public access, but nor is it
limited to members with legally binding contracts...
rgds,
--
Peter Galbavy
Knowledge Matters Ltd
http://www.knowledge.com/
From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 6 17:16:29 2000
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From: "Allan Newsome"
Subject: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest?
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4b2
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:27:52 -0600
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I'm talking to the admin folks at the host of my Majordomo
mailing list and they said the following.
< to a majordomo list. All it does is
forward the message. The only thing I could possibly see is
if an HTML email was sent to a majordomo list and the email
reader receiving the message doesn't understand html. They
would still get the message, but it would contain the html
coding as plain text. If AOL 6.0 doesn't support plain text
email as you suggest, it would not only affect
majordomo...but every email program out there that is not
set to send out emails in html format by default. If you can
point me to where you found out this information, i can do
some more research. >>
My question to the list is, does Majordomo support HTML?
Does is support HTML in the Digest version of mailing lists?
My answer to the tech support guy was that he was wrong
about the HTML being forwarded straight through in the
Digest format. I need to find somewhere that has the "real"
answer and you guys are the best source of places to find
that information. GreatCircle.com doesn't seem to have it.
Thanks,
Allan Newsome
From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 05:52:22 2000
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Subject: Re: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest?
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:06:09 -0600
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: Adam Bailey
To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On 11/6/00 7:27 PM, Allan Newsome wrote...
>My question to the list is, does Majordomo support HTML?
majordomo doesn't support or not support HTML. It passes along what it is
given.
>Does is support HTML in the Digest version of mailing lists?
The digest would be a mess, since the entire thing isn't being sent
through in text/html. Although someone with a mailer that can view just
that MIME section should get it as an HTML message.
--
Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois
adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP
adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/
From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 08:37:21 2000
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for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:52:57 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:53:33 -0500 (EST)
From: James M Galvin
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest?
In-reply-to:
X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com
To: Allan Newsome
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Message-id:
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On the one hand, majordomo does not care about the content of a
message, whether HTML or anything else. Like most elist technologies it
receives messages and it distributes them. Plain and simple.
On the other hand, there are two times when it (and most elist
technologies) should care and sometimes create problems depending on how
successsful they are at dealing with them.
1. Digests - if digests are forwarded as MIME multipart/digests, then
most MIME-aware email clients will have no trouble with HTML-based
messages. I don't know what majordomo2 does, but older versions of
majordomo did not do this and thus by default HTML messages in a
digest will be unreadable. Of course, the recipient could take steps
to put the message in a separate file and then view it. After all,
majordomo does pass the content through, it only "messes up" the
headers.
2. Administrative messages - Here again I don't know about majordomo2,
but older versions would not parse the following:
subscribe
Most things that send HTML actually send a multipart/alternative
which has text in front, so this is not as much of a problem as it
could be.
In any case, how much all of this matters depends on your subscriber
community. Therefore, your mileage may vary.
Jim
On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Allan Newsome wrote:
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:27:52 -0600
From: Allan Newsome
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest?
I'm talking to the admin folks at the host of my Majordomo
mailing list and they said the following.
< to a majordomo list. All it does is
forward the message. The only thing I could possibly see is
if an HTML email was sent to a majordomo list and the email
reader receiving the message doesn't understand html. They
would still get the message, but it would contain the html
coding as plain text. If AOL 6.0 doesn't support plain text
email as you suggest, it would not only affect
majordomo...but every email program out there that is not
set to send out emails in html format by default. If you can
point me to where you found out this information, i can do
some more research. >>
My question to the list is, does Majordomo support HTML?
Does is support HTML in the Digest version of mailing lists?
My answer to the tech support guy was that he was wrong
about the HTML being forwarded straight through in the
Digest format. I need to find somewhere that has the "real"
answer and you guys are the best source of places to find
that information. GreatCircle.com doesn't seem to have it.
Thanks,
Allan Newsome
From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 10:06:09 2000
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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:16:56 -0800
To: James M Galvin
From: SRE
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest?
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To:
References:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Sounding like a broken record here: USE DEMIME! This script will
strip out all the HTML and RTF crap, producing formatted plain text.
I use it in a pipe to keep my command parser from croaking, and I
use it in a pipe to keep my lists html-free without playing nanny
and telling people what they can send. Easy. Functional. Free.
Works with any MLM, not specific to majordomo.
Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html
Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable
Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf
Demime email list: demime-l@scifi.squawk.com
At 08:53 AM 11/7/00, James M Galvin wrote:
>1. Digests - if digests are forwarded as MIME multipart/digests, then
> most MIME-aware email clients will have no trouble with HTML-based
> messages. I don't know what majordomo2 does, but older versions of
> majordomo did not do this and thus by default HTML messages in a
> digest will be unreadable. Of course, the recipient could take steps
> to put the message in a separate file and then view it. After all,
> majordomo does pass the content through, it only "messes up" the
> headers.
>
>2. Administrative messages - Here again I don't know about majordomo2,
> but older versions would not parse the following:
> subscribe
From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 12:05:28 2000
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<3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost>
<00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:16:32 -0800
To: thomas@ifi.uio.no, Chuq Von Rospach
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Cc: Russ Allbery , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
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At 9:11 PM +0100 11/7/00, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
> Noone should pretend that this is
>"progress".
Just because some people don't see it as progress doesn't mean it's
not progress. And it sure doesn't mean all of us don't see it as
progress.
--
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Be just, and fear not.
From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 15:34:05 2000
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Message-Id:
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:51:29 -0800
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Dave Rand.. where are you?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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Sorry to do this to the list, but I misplaced his e-mail. Dave -- I
have a MAPS issue I want to discuss with you privately, can you
e-mail me? it's not something I think ought to start in public...
--
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Be just, and fear not.
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 07:05:30 2000
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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 07:23:55 -0800
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
From: Chuck Rice
Subject: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I am new to this list so excuse me for interjecting, but I run a
number of small mailing lists with a total of about 3000 subscribers.
One of the lists is pretty high traffic with as many as 300 to 500
messages a day during September and October.
I have been dealing with the HTML problem for a couple of years now.
I find that HTML causes problems for some user's email clients, it
causes problems for digest readers, problems in that it can carry
viruses, and problems for my archives. I am sure I am preaching to
the choir here.
A couple of years ago, I wrote an AppleScript to just bounce HTML
formatted messages with instructions on how to turn HTML off in
Outlook Express. This has pretty much solved my problem and my users
love it this way. A month ago, I upgraded my system and had trouble
with the script for a few weeks and I got numerous complaints that it
was not rejecting HTML messages any more. Thank heavens I found the
problem.
I started getting reports of AOL 6.0 problems a week or two ago and
had the AOL users contact AOL support. I got this response back from
one of my users:
"I spoke again to the aohell tech support people. They have
admitted it is a problem with there software and will fix
the problem in a few weeks when they update the software.
I guess in the meantime my best bet is to get a hotmail
account."
And other users reported that AOL recommended that they switch back
to 5.0 for a few weeks till the problem was fixed and a patch was
available.
I have read many of the archive posts on this topic, and while I
agree that AOL is an 800 Pound Gorilla, you also must remember that
they have an 8000 Pound User Base, and even if 1 percent of them
complain, the 800 Pound Gorilla gets a big headache.
As to Chuq's argument that my users will find it onerous and move to
another mailing list, I have not found this to be the case. My lists
are growing steadily every year and people seem to like the way I run
my lists.
I do have one list that gets business correspondence. I exclude that
list from the HTMLreject filter since messages to that list can come
from anywhere and the 5 people on that list can handle the HTML. But
that is just a matter of setting your filter to allow what you want
in and disallow what you do not. -Chuck-
--
__________________________________________________________________________
Chuck Rice
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 09:35:40 2000
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References: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:00:52 -0500
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
From: Tom Coradeschi
Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Allan Newsome wrote:
>Hey Folks,
>
>Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of
>sending email in "Plain Text" format.
I seem to recall having seen some words posted here regarding what
AOL users can to do avoid this problem (sorry, Chuq: it's a problem,
at least on my lists). Of course, I deleted it. Word I get from some
of my users is that it was raised as an issue during AOL's beta
cycle, but the developers couldn't or wouldn't fix it, at least not
at that time.
--
tom coradeschi tcora@skylands.ibmwr.org
Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders
From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 12:28:47 2000
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Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:33:24 -0600
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: Adam Bailey
To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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On 11/9/00 12:00 PM, Tom Coradeschi wrote...
>Allan Newsome wrote:
>>Hey Folks,
>>
>>Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of
>>sending email in "Plain Text" format.
>
>I seem to recall having seen some words posted here regarding what
>AOL users can to do avoid this problem (sorry, Chuq: it's a problem,
>at least on my lists).
No, there's no way to shut it off.
>Of course, I deleted it. Word I get from some of my users is that it
>was raised as an issue during AOL's beta cycle, but the developers
>couldn't or wouldn't fix it, at least not at that time.
Your users are partially mistaken. I can't be more specific.
--
Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois
adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP
adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/
From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 05:05:45 2000
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