The rules insert should be out soon, but because people have their cards in hand, I do want to go ahead and unveil this. It's too important to hold back. I don't want anyone learning to play one of the cards with Force abilities the wrong way. You're going to see Force abilities continue.

Quote:

Force abilities: Some characters have Force powers that remain in effect beyond that character's turn. These are called Force abilities. A Force ability remains active for the designated time. Force abilities cannot be cancelled unless the character is defeated, or at the moment the ability is activated (if a character with a Force canceling power like Force Absorb or Force Defense is within the required range at the time of activation). Force abilities that don't last until the end of the skirmish are negated prematurely if the character using it rolls a save, spends Force points, makes an attack, or is dealt damage. The ability immediately ends if the character joins an opponent's squad. Characters with Force Immunity ignore Force abilities.

The rules insert should be out soon, but because people have their cards in hand, I do want to go ahead and unveil this. It's too important to hold back. I don't want anyone learning to play one of the cards with Force abilities the wrong way. You're going to see Force abilities continue.

Quote:

Force abilities: Some characters have Force powers that remain in effect beyond that character's turn. These are called Force abilities. A Force ability remains active for the designated time. Force abilities cannot be cancelled unless the character is defeated, or at the moment the ability is activated (if a character with a Force canceling power like Force Absorb or Force Defense is within the required range at the time of activation). Force abilities that don't last until the end of the skirmish are negated prematurely if the character using it rolls a save, spends Force points, makes an attack, or is dealt damage. The ability immediately ends if the character joins an opponent's squad. Characters with Force Immunity ignore Force abilities.

We costed this stuff with that understanding.

Still, I think that's awfully open to interpretation. I would rule it, as someone with just as much play experience as most of the rest of you, that FI character's on Bastila's squad would completely ignore it, and any affects against enemy pieces which had FI would ignore it. But the +10 damage affects Allies only, and if Bastila doesn't have any FI allies, then all allies would get the +10 damage, regardless of who they are targeting. Same thing with Atris. The ability says "Allied characters get +4 attack". That should have absolutely no bearing on the enemy they are targeting. IMO, the FI enemy has no choice as to whether or not they can ignore that part of the ability, because it doesn't affect them at all. Yes, they would ignore the -4 to Defense as THAT part affects them.

It doesn't make any sense, as TCW pointed out, for Carth to get +10 damage against the Ugo, but not the Vong standing next to him. It's not that he's shooting with some amount of Force Energy a la Force Lightning...it's just an abstraction of their accuracy/fighting prowess, as improved by the Battle Meditation.

I don't know....I would just rule this completely different from a judging stand point. Force Immune characters are, and always have been, immune to effects that specifically affect THEM. Anything that buffs your own characters and THEN they attack a FI character...that still works.

Honestly, just as said before, when compared to Sith Rage or LS Assault, I just simply can't fathom why Force Abilities would work differently, even with the Rules Insert written the way it is.

_________________-AaronMand'alor"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."

No, Yuuzhan Vong is not an individual species, even as the books are concerned, IMO. As I pointed out, all various forms of YV are referred to as YV throughout the book. They are really more separate 'species' such as things like the main castes (Warriors, priests, leaders, etc....the humanoids), then things like the Chazrak and such are very literally different species, but they have been absorbed into the YV as a whole. I guess maybe it would be more like sub-species.

The fact of the matter is, even stuff like the Voxyn would not be considered 'Yuuzhan Vong species', they are 'Voxyn species'. So I think the overall moniker of the YV faction works exactly as it should based on my interpretation of the novels.

Ok then clearly we were arguing to completely different things...and I'm still a little lost as some of your logic seems circuitous at best to me, but it may be simply the way I am reading it...or maybe your missing my point...I dunno, I would say since it's not longer about gameplay I don't care anymore but don't want to come off as a jerk and since I know I will be confused as to your point all day

I'm saying that Yuzaahn Vong is both a faction and a species, and that sometimes one is mutually exclusive of the other. I think when they are referring to Yuzaahn Vong in the books they are referring to the army(faction for gameplay purposes), whether it be the actual Yuzaahn Vong species, Chazrak, voxyn etc. The species of Yuzhan Vong would then refer to the humanoids of each of the various castes regardless of what political entity, army or (Faction) they belong to.

Let's look at Nei Rin to break it down a little more. She is a Yuzhan Vong (species) that is not part of the Yuzhan Vong Army/political entity/faction. She is allied with the New Republic or whatever it is during that time frame. The Voxyn Queen is of the Voxyn species but also part of the greater Yuzhan Vong Army/political entity/faction.

A lot of your reasoning says to me that my pets are now part of the human species, when really they are dogs and cats that fall under my household[faction].

Again for gameplay purposes does it really matter, no, and that may have been the confusion. You may have been arguing solely for that but I misinterpreted what you were saying..

The rules insert should be out soon, but because people have their cards in hand, I do want to go ahead and unveil this. It's too important to hold back. I don't want anyone learning to play one of the cards with Force abilities the wrong way. You're going to see Force abilities continue.

Quote:

Force abilities: Some characters have Force powers that remain in effect beyond that character's turn. These are called Force abilities. A Force ability remains active for the designated time. Force abilities cannot be cancelled unless the character is defeated, or at the moment the ability is activated (if a character with a Force canceling power like Force Absorb or Force Defense is within the required range at the time of activation). Force abilities that don't last until the end of the skirmish are negated prematurely if the character using it rolls a save, spends Force points, makes an attack, or is dealt damage. The ability immediately ends if the character joins an opponent's squad. Characters with Force Immunity ignore Force abilities.

We costed this stuff with that understanding.

Still, I think that's awfully open to interpretation. I would rule it, as someone with just as much play experience as most of the rest of you, that FI character's on Bastila's squad would completely ignore it, and any affects against enemy pieces which had FI would ignore it. But the +10 damage affects Allies only, and if Bastila doesn't have any FI allies, then all allies would get the +10 damage, regardless of who they are targeting. Same thing with Atris. The ability says "Allied characters get +4 attack". That should have absolutely no bearing on the enemy they are targeting. IMO, the FI enemy has no choice as to whether or not they can ignore that part of the ability, because it doesn't affect them at all. Yes, they would ignore the -4 to Defense as THAT part affects them.

It doesn't make any sense, as TCW pointed out, for Carth to get +10 damage against the Ugo, but not the Vong standing next to him. It's not that he's shooting with some amount of Force Energy a la Force Lightning...it's just an abstraction of their accuracy/fighting prowess, as improved by the Battle Meditation.

I don't know....I would just rule this completely different from a judging stand point. Force Immune characters are, and always have been, immune to effects that specifically affect THEM. Anything that buffs your own characters and THEN they attack a FI character...that still works.

Honestly, just as said before, when compared to Sith Rage or LS Assault, I just simply can't fathom why Force Abilities would work differently, even with the Rules Insert written the way it is.

+1 again. I interpret that bolded line to mean the parts of Force Abilities that affect them as it has been with any previous interaction. It just doesn't make sense...

No, Yuuzhan Vong is not an individual species, even as the books are concerned, IMO. As I pointed out, all various forms of YV are referred to as YV throughout the book. They are really more separate 'species' such as things like the main castes (Warriors, priests, leaders, etc....the humanoids), then things like the Chazrak and such are very literally different species, but they have been absorbed into the YV as a whole. I guess maybe it would be more like sub-species.

The fact of the matter is, even stuff like the Voxyn would not be considered 'Yuuzhan Vong species', they are 'Voxyn species'. So I think the overall moniker of the YV faction works exactly as it should based on my interpretation of the novels.

Ok then clearly we were arguing to completely different things...and I'm still a little lost as some of your logic seems circuitous at best to me, but it may be simply the way I am reading it...or maybe your missing my point...I dunno, I would say since it's not longer about gameplay I don't care anymore but don't want to come off as a jerk and since I know I will be confused as to your point all day

I'm saying that Yuzaahn Vong is both a faction and a species, and that sometimes one is mutually exclusive of the other. I think when they are referring to Yuzaahn Vong in the books they are referring to the army(faction for gameplay purposes), whether it be the actual Yuzaahn Vong species, Chazrak, voxyn etc. The species of Yuzhan Vong would then refer to the humanoids of each of the various castes regardless of what political entity, army or (Faction) they belong to.

Let's look at Nei Rin to break it down a little more. She is a Yuzhan Vong (species) that is not part of the Yuzhan Vong Army/political entity/faction. She is allied with the New Republic or whatever it is during that time frame. The Voxyn Queen is of the Voxyn species but also part of the greater Yuzhan Vong Army/political entity/faction.

A lot of your reasoning says to me that my pets are now part of the human species, when really they are dogs and cats that fall under my household[faction].

Again for gameplay purposes does it really matter, no, and that may have been the confusion. You may have been arguing solely for that but I misinterpreted what you were saying..

LOL OK. Apparently, I was trying to argue the same thing as you were.

Voxyn and Chzrach and Yammosk would be part of the Yuuzhan Vong [Faction] but not of the Yuuzhan Vong [Species]. And as such, it'd be pretty tough to separate them in terms of gameplay, just simply for the very rare occurrences where it would actually make a difference.

Sorry, Brad. Would you like to spin around the merry-go-round with me some more?!?

_________________-AaronMand'alor"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."

Unless you're claiming that pieces under the influence of ABM would never get their +10 against FI characters? I'll have to re-read the ability, but I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. ABM is buffing your own allies, just like Sith Rage would. So it should be usable against FI enemies.

Just to clarify here, a force immune character would not get the +10 dmg bonus from ABM.However, a character boosted by ABM WOULD get the +10 dmg against FI characters because its working like sith rage and lightsaber throw; it is boosting the attacker not the defender. The CEs of the FI character wouldn't get disrupted but the allies of ABM do get a boost regardless of what you attack. There is no precedent set by Force abilities that contradicts the rules set by sith rage etc/

Likewise, Force meditation allows characters to get boosts when attacking FI characters, but a FI character can't get the boost.

I was getting confused with the tangents during the discussion, so i hope this clarifies it for people.

Its fairly clear if you use the rule precedences already established. Force abilities are force powers that are subject to a longer period of time with a couple of notable differences such as they can only be cancelled upon "casting". There has already been a version of a Force Ability "Dark force spirit"; but seeing as the character gets removed for it to have an effect and its the only thing like it until DotF there probably wasn't any reason for WotC to define it as a class as we did.

Coming back to the original question.Vongsence works on Yuzzhan Vong characters i.e. characters of the Yuzzhan Vong faction. It doesn't matter where the character is if its Vong and Force immune, Jacen can zap them. This will also apply to any future YV characters that happen to become force immune somehow but originally arn't.

If it changes faction then as the rule stands at the moment this will negate Jacens VS. The ossus is the only figure that can change faction so its the stand out. Its perhaps to be considered as another advantage to run the ossus for NR. Its a slightly annoying eventuality but pretty minor in the scope of things

If we (the community) really do want to change it the quickest and dirtiest way to errata the ability is to make this glossary change.

However, this now becomes similar to Gree and the Wookiee Hunter AT-ST debacle as there is a possibility that the YH1 might get som odd interaction. We could do as Brad says and make a YV special ability but then you have to put out an extensive errata stating that many cards have this SA (or just a blanket on that all figures from the YV faction have the SA Yuuzhan Vong).

The ossus is the only figure that can change faction so its the stand out. Its perhaps to be considered as another advantage to run the ossus for NR. Its a slightly annoying eventuality but pretty minor in the scope of things

We could do as Brad says and make a YV special ability but then you have to put out an extensive errata stating that many cards have this SA (or just a blanket on that all figures from the YV faction have the SA Yuuzhan Vong).

My feeling was just to leave it as is.

I count in the end, maybe 5 Yuzaahn Vong who either have affinty for or are simply part of the New Republic. There are about 3 more characters who could have Vongsense. So even in the future my suggestion is a wash.

Sorry, I'm one of those guys that tend to throw out suggestions whether I've thought them through or not, or care for them or not...

It's a good and a bad thing. The good thing is you'll never offend me for not taking one fo my suggestions

We could always create a Yuuzhan Vong identifier for the Glossary (just like Wookiee and Ugnaught). "A Yuuzhan Vong is any character that belongs to the Yuuzhan Vong faction or any character with 'Yuuzhan Vong' in its name."

Then an Ossus Guardian in a New Republic squad going up against another New Republic squad with Jacen would be able to get affected by his Vongsense. It's an easy fix if we desire to go that route.

i mentioned that possibility, but unfortunately the YH1 has Yuuzhan vong in its name creating the same loophole that the Wookiee hunter At-ST has.

Hadn't thought about that. We could always add "living" to the description since there will never be a Droid in the YV faction. So:"A Yuuzhan Vong is any character that belongs to the Yuuzhan Vong faction or any living character with 'Yuuzhan Vong' in its name."

Hadn't thought about that. We could always add "living" to the description since there will never be a Droid in the YV faction. So:"A Yuuzhan Vong is any character that belongs to the Yuuzhan Vong faction or any living character with 'Yuuzhan Vong' in its name."

After reading this whole big post I like this idea right here. It makes the most sense to me and keeps things straight.

Remind me again: we are having this major discussion to change the rules for ALL of those times when a YV Ossus in a NR squad betrays to the opponent and Jacen wants to attack? Yeah, I will be concerned about THAT happening.

It's more about NR vs NR, which seems more likely. In the end, it is a flavor arguement, which has to be balanced by how complicated you make it.

The benefits, for those rare times you will be going against a "Yuuzhan Vong" outside that faction, is not worth the whole bunch of rejiggering definations that have worked fine for years. The Order 66 fiasco is an example of bad design principles.

Loopholes can exist in this game. You can either accept those rare occurences, or build in so many exceptions that it makes it unwieldy to learn. The design team has done a good job so far, but it wasn't perfect.

Remind me again: we are having this major discussion to change the rules for ALL of those times when a YV Ossus in a NR squad betrays to the opponent and Jacen wants to attack? Yeah, I will be concerned about THAT happening.

The only reason Betrayal was discussed was to get the Ossus Guardian under Ysalimiri, which was useless since that just gave it Force Immunity all over again. The real discussion would have been easier started as "Jacen is attacking an Ossus Guardian on a New Republic squad, can he use FP against it?"

I don't see the problem with how it is now. If we change it then wouldn't we also have to change all the other hunters like mando hunter? No one has ever complained about that but if you are running a mando in a sith squad you don't get it. What about sith hunter? Would I get Sith hunter against Darth Maul Champion of the sith?

I think we need to let it be as is and for the few times that it might matter just know that it doesn't work. Not any different than any other ability that seems like it should work but doesn't.

_________________When I left you I was but the learner . . . now I am the master.

I don't see the problem with how it is now. If we change it then wouldn't we also have to change all the other hunters like mando hunter? No one has ever complained about that but if you are running a mando in a sith squad you don't get it. What about sith hunter? Would I get Sith hunter against Darth Maul Champion of the sith?

Well the real difference is Vongsense isn't at a "Hunter" ability in name, but has its very own name instead. Which thematically doesn't changed anything in regards to those actual "Hunter" abilities if there was a glossary clarification for "Yuuzhan Vong" but only in regards to Vongsense.

I think that if you made an errata to Vongsense instead of defining "Yuuzhan Vong" that might actually be the better route. It prevents problems with other abilities, and only addresses itself instead.

Reword it to something like..

Vongsense: Ignore Force Immunity of Yuuzhan Vong enemies as well as living characters with "Yuuzhan Vong" in their name.

That gives the ability a straightforward design that leaves no questions as who can be a target. Or so I believe..

this NR vs. NR scenario might be somewhat trivial as its not exactly a popular squad choice, but if its caused this big post.. then I think it warrants some extra consideration, or at least for design of future abilities in the V-sets of the future.

Well, to be fair, a large portion of this thread had more to do with debating what actually constituted a Yuuzhan Vong and then there was an aside about the use of Force Abilities against Force Immune characters as well. So, not that much of it was really about the Vongsense issue.

It's a small interaction, and not worth doing an errata for.

_________________-AaronMand'alor"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."

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