In this exercise, every single QB's numbers would be dragged down by worse talent around him. it is the nature of the sim calcuating things by catch rate, ypc, etc. in the sim you cant make a bad WR a good WR no matter how good a QB you give them. you obviously think Peyton Manning is a great QB (which i would agree with)...in the scenario you are describing, Manning's numbers come down with a worse cast around him too. Does that mean that Manning isnt great?

The difference between Brady and most other QBs who are said to be good is that most other QBs actually are about as good as they are perceived to be. The ones who are the most over rated tend to be the ones who win Super Bowls or playoff games and produce flashy stats but don't have a lot of actual ability - and that fits Brady to a 'T'.

To me, Brady will always be a three time Super Bowl version of what Trent Dilfer was for one season of Super Bowl winning with the Ravens. I think many of you would be saying Dilfer was "elite" if that team would have somehow won two more Super Bowls with him under center.

louddawg,

Manning isn't over rated (or at the minimum, not nearly as much as Brady is).

The point is Brady had a lot of talent around him which is responsible for both his wins and his statistics, yet he is over rated because he gets the credit for it.

The difference between Brady and most other QBs who are said to be good is that most other QBs actually are about as good as they are perceived to be. The ones who are the most over rated tend to be the ones who win Super Bowls or playoff games and produce flashy stats but don't have a lot of actual ability - and that fits Brady to a 'T'.

To me, Brady will always be a three time Super Bowl version of what Trent Dilfer was for one season of Super Bowl winning with the Ravens. I think many of you would be saying Dilfer was "elite" if that team would have somehow won two more Super Bowls with him under center.

louddawg,

Manning isn't over rated (or at the minimum, not nearly as much as Brady is).

The point is Brady had a lot of talent around him which is responsible for both his wins and his statistics, yet he is over rated because he gets the credit for it.

Now you are saying Brady and Dilfer are the same...wow, you are a fool.

The difference between Brady and most other QBs who are said to be good is that most other QBs actually are about as good as they are perceived to be. *(OK! Based on.....?)* The ones who are the most over rated tend to be the ones who win Super Bowls or playoff games and produce flashy stats but don't have a lot of actual ability - and that fits Brady to a 'T'. *(Actual ability...based on...?)*

To me, Brady will always be a three time Super Bowl version of what Trent Dilfer was for one season of Super Bowl winning with the Ravens. I think many of you would be saying Dilfer was "elite" if that team would have somehow won two more Super Bowls with him under center. *(No, because Dilfer wasn't a good quarterback and put up ****** stats.)*

Moving forward I'm not responding unless you put up some actual evidence. As much as I do enjoy arguing with you (I don't understand why, but whatever), it's fruitless if there's nothing for me to argue besides "where's your evidence."

All the coulda-shoulda-woulda speculation is pointless. Brady has three Super Bowl rings. Only three other guys can say that. He's also nailed multiple supermodels/celebrities. That has to count for something.

Manning was surrounded by talent for his entire career as well, but how often do people talk about Edge James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, or Dallas Clark? Any argument that Brady is overrated because of the talent around him can be turned on every other good to great QB. No QB in the history of the game became great without good players around him. I think that no one talks about those things because everyone already assumes it to be true.

Brady was a solid starting QB who started putting up elite level stats as he matured in the league and when he was given Wes Welker and Randy Moss to throw to. Manning was given elite level players when he entered the league. in 98 the Colts had both Marshall Faulk and Marvin Harrison. in 99 they lost Faulk, but picked up the Edge. In 01 they added Wayne.

if you argue that Brady isnt elite because he didnt put up those numbers until he got those other players, how then can you not argue that Manning isnt elite because he never had to put up numbers without elite level options?

if you replace Troy Brown and Reche Caldwell (the 2 leading WRs for the 06 Pats) with Randy Moss and Wes Welker, you are going to see a dramatic improvement no matter who the qb is. if you replace Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison with Randy Moss and Wes Welker, i would say you arent going to notice the difference very much.

also, i think if Trent Dilfer won 3 super bowls we would all be saying, "How the f did Trent Dilfer win 3 super bowls?" If Dilfer won 3 super bowls, went to 2 more and lead the league in passing multiple times, threw an NFL record number of TD passes in a single season and was amongst the leaders in several others, had near league leading completion % and QB rating year after year, was in the top 3 QBs by most advanced stat metrics for a decade running and won games at a rate better than all but 1 of his contemporaries, then we would be saying the Dilfer was elite.

The difference between Brady and most other QBs who are said to be good is that most other QBs actually are about as good as they are perceived to be. *(OK! Based on.....?)*

Their ability to make plays better than someone who replaces them.

We've been over this before. Brady is easily replaced, which we saw with Cassel. Compare that to the Colts without Peyton Manning, and you can see a HUGE difference in team success as well as statistics.

*(Actual ability...based on...?)*

Again, what does Brady bring to the table that a good replacement couldn't also bring?

He's not fast or athletic (like RGIII or Vick or whomever). He doesn't have a rifle for an arm. (like Favre and others). He isn't the greatest mind in the history of NFL QBs (like Manning) or even anything close. He hasn't transformed a losing team into a winner multiple times in different situations, or made incredibly accurate throws into tight windows on a regular basis (like Kurt Warner).

And yet again, there is the lack of a drop off when Brady is replaced by a good alternative option, such as Cassel. If he's really so **** great, the team would fail miserably in his absence, like the Colts did without Manning (before Luck).

*(No, because Dilfer wasn't a good quarterback and put up ****** stats.)*

Dilfer also didn't have the weapons Brady has had, particularly in his recent seasons and that record setting 2007 year.

Brady has three Super Bowl rings. Only three other guys can say that.

So if the Ravens won more Super Bowls with Dilfer under center, you'd consider him "elite" too. Nice to know.

He's also nailed multiple supermodels/celebrities. That has to count for something.

Yes, it counts as evidence he is a man-whore.

if you replace Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison with Randy Moss and Wes Welker, i would say you arent going to notice the difference very much.

This would be a much more interesting debate than Brady versus Manning because its a closer comparison.

I would argue Wayne and Harrison are (were) good, but Moss in his prime when he gave it his all was better than everyone. Welker in addition to all his talent was also a perfect fit for what the Pats were doing.

The difference between Brady and most other QBs who are said to be good is that most other QBs actually are about as good as they are perceived to be. *(OK! Based on.....?)*

Their ability to make plays better than someone who replaces them.

We've been over this before. Brady is easily replaced, which we saw with Cassel. Compare that to the Colts without Peyton Manning, and you can see a HUGE difference in team success as well as statistics.

*(Actual ability...based on...?)*

Again, what does Brady bring to the table that a good replacement couldn't also bring?

He's not fast or athletic (like RGIII or Vick or whomever). He doesn't have a rifle for an arm. (like Favre and others). He isn't the greatest mind in the history of NFL QBs (like Manning) or even anything close. He hasn't transformed a losing team into a winner multiple times in different situations, or made incredibly accurate throws into tight windows on a regular basis (like Kurt Warner).

And yet again, there is the lack of a drop off when Brady is replaced by a good alternative option, such as Cassel. If he's really so **** great, the team would fail miserably in his absence, like the Colts did without Manning (before Luck).

*(No, because Dilfer wasn't a good quarterback and put up ****** stats.)*

Dilfer also didn't have the weapons Brady has had, particularly in his recent seasons and that record setting 2007 year.

Brady has three Super Bowl rings. Only three other guys can say that.

So if the Ravens won more Super Bowls with Dilfer under center, you'd consider him "elite" too. Nice to know.

He's also nailed multiple supermodels/celebrities. That has to count for something.

Yes, it counts as evidence he is a man-whore.

if you replace Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison with Randy Moss and Wes Welker, i would say you arent going to notice the difference very much.

This would be a much more interesting debate than Brady versus Manning because its a closer comparison.

I would argue Wayne and Harrison are (were) good, but Moss in his prime when he gave it his all was better than everyone. Welker in addition to all his talent was also a perfect fit for what the Pats were doing.

I don't know...i saw the Colts play pretty damn well and actually make the playoffs this year....with a lot of the same parts Manning had. They even had less talent.

Again, look at Brady's stats in 2007 and 2009 and compare them with Cassell's of 2008.

Brady actually has a very great football mind.

He throws a beautiful deep ball...sure, not every throw is perfect...whose is? Also, ask the WR's in New England if Brady has a weak arm. He constantly zips passes to them left and right.

He brought a team in decline into a team that won 3 super bowls in 4 years and a constant winner...you do realize that with the invention of the free agency, it's harder to keep competitive teams for a sustained time now.

Dilfer had equal talent around him to that of Brady in the 2001-2004 run. Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes?!? Shannon Sharpe and a very good offensive line.

Now Brady is a man-whore for having sex with 2 women??? You're either a virgin or married your high school sweetheart (which i applaud you if that's the case).

I agree that Moss is/was better than Wayne and Harrison....but Welker??? Come on. He was average at best before Brady and the Pats.