Brock, Goldberg, Nash and Hall (in the past)...They all got great pushes in WWE and then up and left. Whats the deal with that?On the other hand, guys such as Lance Storm, Tommy Dreamer, even Steiner should have got better gimmicks and pushes than they did. I mean lance held the WCW intercontinental title for quite a while and Tommy Dreamer who was a former ECW champion should have atleast been given a legit shot at the hardcore or maybe the tag titles. Is vince that stupid or is the creative team that retarded that they can't use guys (who should be used better) well.

Brock, Goldberg, Nash and Hall were given great pushes because they actually were over. Each shot himself in the foot by his attitude, vices, or ambitions. Vince didn't end any of these guys' careers.Lance Storm, Tommy Dreamer, and Steiner all had TV time at one point or another. Storm and Dreamer didn't get over. The fans sat on their hands. Steiner's a bit different because he was mega-over when he first came in, then killed any semblance of stardom with his god-awful suplexfest with Triple H.I don't think Vince is stupid or the creative team is retarded. I think sometimes smarks (us) are stupid and retarded for always rooting for guys who the rest of the world doesn't give a goose turd about.

Originally posted by Parts UnknownBrock, Goldberg, Nash and Hall were given great pushes because they actually were over.

That's not exactly true.

Brock Lesnar was far from over when his intial push began in 2002, and they put him over EVERYONE (except Steve Austin, thankfully). It wasn't until he smeared Hulk Hogan's blood across his chest and beat him with a bear hug that he finally started getting responses. People didn't exactly appreciate The Rock just dropping by for a championship run and taking off, either.

Even with all of that, he had a botched face turn and was never really a draw as champion, though he did help to get a number of people on SMACKDOWN! over, and deserves a lot of credit for that. But... Brock was 100% manufactured in a lab somewhere and shoved down our throats. The amount of effort they put into his push could have easily been given to another talent or a stronger storyline at the time, but "BROCK IS BIG" was what Vince wanted to go with.

Goldberg was a joke, and the way he got over was total eningeering on the part of the promoter. Essentially, in his first four months (Sept. '97 - Jan. '98), he was feuding with Steve McMichael and NO ONE was chanting his name. He was still doing the 30-second squashes around this time, and it didn't catch on. Eventually, he started getting the "DAAAARRRYYYLLL.... DAAAARRRRYYYLLL..." chant - which was blasted through the speakers until it actually got over with people - and before we knew it he was beating Hulk Hogan clean on free TV. After Nash beat him, he was never the same, save for some minor bumps he gave WWE in his last run.

Kevin Nash is one of the lowest drawing champions Vince has actually run with. He was sort of over in '94, around the time he won the IC Title, but only about as much as a Hercules or some big midcarder could be. He was Shawn's sidekick at the time, then Vince arbitrarily decided to give him a YEAR LONG title run, which tanked. If not for his Rumble '94 performance and dominating the year of 1995, he would have never been a main eventer. Otherwise, he was just some big truck driver who had Theme From Roseanne as his entrance music.

When he went to WCW, the decision to give him a push was already made based on the piles of money they dumped on him. Nash made it work for a while, but when 1998 rolled around, he had nothing left to offer.

Scott Hall is probably the only one on that list that qualifies. He made the Razor gimmick work, and did a great job in WCW. So, yeah, he was probably pushed because he was actually over. About as far as he could go.

Each shot himself in the foot by his attitude, vices, or ambitions.

Well, in the case of the first three, they were pretty hopeless in the longterm anyway. Hall is unfortunate, though.

I don't think Vince is stupid or the creative team is retarded. I think sometimes smarks (us) are stupid and retarded for always rooting for guys who the rest of the world doesn't give a goose turd about.

On some level, I agree, although there are a number of people Vince has totally missed the ball with to give A-Train a new push.

While I agree that Brock was pushed before he was over, the "BROCK IS BIG" and that's the only reason he was pushed argument is a little erroneous.

Not only was Brock BIG, but he was extremely athletic for a big man. He could do things that no one else his size could do and he was fast. And speed is a very underrated ability....I think speed is what makes the Rock an entertaining wrestler. Everything he does looks so fast and crisp for a big guy....anyhow, I'm getting off the point.

Yes, Brock is big. But Brock was big AND fast AND athletic. Big difference.

The Amazing Salami's Not-So-Random W of the Arbitrary Segment of Time

OL FUZZY BASTARDBastard says:But it doesn't matter anyway because MICHAEL MOORE IS A FATTY! What doesn't he just die - he's so fat!!!

Originally posted by The Amazing SalamiNot only was Brock BIG, but he was extremely athletic for a big man. He could do things that no one else his size could do and he was fast.

Like land on his head? I was impressed with Brock the first time I saw him, simply because he was HUGE. But, over time, his matches grew boring and he really never had a charector. He was just a big guy, who could beat the piss out of you. Sometimes that is okay (Andre, Big John Studd) but in his case, it just wasnt enough to hold me interest.

Originally posted by The Amazing SalamiNot only was Brock BIG, but he was extremely athletic for a big man. He could do things that no one else his size could do and he was fast.

Like land on his head? I was impressed with Brock the first time I saw him, simply because he was HUGE. But, over time, his matches grew boring and he really never had a charector. He was just a big guy, who could beat the piss out of you. Sometimes that is okay (Andre, Big John Studd) but in his case, it just wasnt enough to hold me interest.

Yes, Brock's definite weakness was his charisma. My point was that it's an ill-defined argument to say he was pushed "just cause he was big" as he had way more than that going for him.

The Amazing Salami's Not-So-Random W of the Arbitrary Segment of Time

OL FUZZY BASTARDBastard says:But it doesn't matter anyway because MICHAEL MOORE IS A FATTY! What doesn't he just die - he's so fat!!!

I get a little tired of these "Brock is awesome because he moved so well for a guy his size" arguements. I mean honestly, Brock doesn't seem TOO big to pull off some agility. Same goes with A-Train...and its not like HE even does dropkicks or anything. These guys really aren't all that huge.

--Also, Sklokazoid, seems like you're attempting to refute Goldberg and Nash's overness just to refute (or of course, because you don't like them). Honestly, they were every bit as over as Hall, and Nash didn't get a push until after his Royal Rumble performance..where he got insanely over with the crowd. So he definitely qualifies, money draw or not.

Originally posted by The Amazing SalamiNot only was Brock BIG, but he was extremely athletic for a big man. He could do things that no one else his size could do and he was fast.

Like land on his head? I was impressed with Brock the first time I saw him, simply because he was HUGE. But, over time, his matches grew boring and he really never had a charector. He was just a big guy, who could beat the piss out of you. Sometimes that is okay (Andre, Big John Studd) but in his case, it just wasnt enough to hold me interest.

What other big man even made the attempt to do the move that landed Brock on his head? Lesnar's overall athleticism is simply ridiculous for a guy as big as he is, and just imagine how good he would (or still will) be if he kept with wrestling for the long haul. He truly was an anomaly in the pro-wrestling world.

As for his character, yeah it was basically nothing. But thats something that also would have gotten better with time. Look how much he improved in two years on the mic (and remember he didn't even talk at all at first!).

Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her.Harry: That's a special feeling.

Originally posted by darkmatcher--Also, Sklokazoid, seems like you're attempting to refute Goldberg and Nash's overness just to refute (or of course, because you don't like them). Honestly, they were every bit as over as Hall, and Nash didn't get a push until after his Royal Rumble performance..where he got insanely over with the crowd. So he definitely qualifies, money draw or not.

(edited by darkmatcher on 7.5.04 1130)

I think Nash has had some great moments, and is generally a funny guy. When he was over around 1996 and 1997, I found him to be immensely entertaining. So, I don't really have Nash hate at all. That doesn't mean he didn't ruin WCW from 1998-death.

I think he did get over, but it had more to do with the politics that put him where he ended up than anything else. He had a lot of talent on the mic and did get a response out of the crowd.

Goldberg was hugely popular, but was shoved down people's throats. It worked, but there was nothing in the guy. Once he lost to Nash, there was nothing left in his sails at all. When he came to WWE last year, he did pop numbers in the ratings with Steve Austin, and I think that was more due to the myth surrounding how popular he was. Honestly, the guy had about 3-6 months in 1998 and that was it for him. There was nothing behind it.

I'm not entirely too sure what led to Benoit's push, but I'm pretty sure that Eddie's push was the result of Smackdown being the top rated cable show among Latinos. That also explains why Rey Misterio is heavily pushed.

Originally posted by SKLOKAZOIDI think Nash has had some great moments, and is generally a funny guy. When he was over around 1996 and 1997, I found him to be immensely entertaining. So, I don't really have Nash hate at all. That doesn't mean he didn't ruin WCW from 1998-death.

I think he did get over, but it had more to do with the politics that put him where he ended up than anything else. He had a lot of talent on the mic and did get a response out of the crowd.

Goldberg was hugely popular, but was shoved down people's throats. It worked, but there was nothing in the guy. Once he lost to Nash, there was nothing left in his sails at all. When he came to WWE last year, he did pop numbers in the ratings with Steve Austin, and I think that was more due to the myth surrounding how popular he was. Honestly, the guy had about 3-6 months in 1998 and that was it for him. There was nothing behind it.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 7.5.04 1204)

I don't care whether they were pushed down our throats or not, those guys were OVER. Period. Some of the most recognizable faces in wrestling, especially during the 90s and yes, during their second lives in WWE recently. Ask people on the street about wrestling, and I guarantee a hell of a lot more of them will know about those guys than Lance Storm and Tommy Dreamer.

And I thought Lesnar, Goldberg, Hall, Nash and even Stiener for that matter were cool without the company "pushing them down my throat." I can make my own decisions on who I mark out for without the company line.

I get so sick of being told that I like certain guys because the WWE wants me to. I would enjoy Orton and Cena even if they were nobodies. I am able to enjoy wrestlers for their talent and charisma, with our without the hype machine.

Originally posted by Joe E. NitroI find it funny now that Benoit and Eddy are champions that everyone one on the net is now scrambling to find another 'great talent' being held down by the MAN.

I think it would be funnier if you weren't expecting it. But there are several candidates. There's Matt Hardy, Rey Mysterio and Jamie Noble at the top of MY list. And Batista. And the fact that they still waste time with turds like Bradshaw and Kane shows that while maybe a battle has been won, the war continues. It's fun if you look at it the right way, sort of taking it personally and pretending that YOUR INTERESTS are being held down by the MAN.

Really, I think the great success of Benoit and relative success of Guerrero as champions has just given us more fuel to bitch because it turns out we were RIGHT.

Originally posted by Joe E. NitroI find it funny now that Benoit and Eddy are champions that everyone one on the net is now scrambling to find another 'great talent' being held down by the MAN.

I think it would be funnier if you weren't expecting it. But there are several candidates. There's Matt Hardy, Rey Mysterio and Jamie Noble at the top of MY list. And Batista. And the fact that they still waste time with turds like Bradshaw and Kane shows that while maybe a battle has been won, the war continues. It's fun if you look at it the right way, sort of taking it personally and pretending that YOUR INTERESTS are being held down by the MAN.

Really, I think the great success of Benoit and relative success of Guerrero as champions has just given us more fuel to bitch because it turns out we were RIGHT.

If that is the CASE then I'll get BEHIND Stevie Richards.

Matt Hardy is getting a push, enjoy it he's ACTING!The WWE doesn't take cruiserweights SEROIUSLY and Rey is awfully SMALL so *I* have a hard time buying into him as a Heavyweight contender.

*I* like Batista though too, as a tag-teamer, BUT *I* guess that WE will have to agree to agree and disagree and STOP OVER emphasizing things.

If Brock was over I'm a monkey's uncle. That was the whole reason his leaving was a kick in the pants. He was given all this cash and all that momentum and everyone made him look great and only now, finally, was he starting to garner the kind of reaction expected of an elite.

And citing ECW as an example of someone's ability to get over is crazy. I'm sure, if Charles Manson had got out in time, ECW's fans woulda loved him too. That product was too bloodthirsty to be used a basis for anything you plan on putting on WWE TV, which just has too much visibility.

Originally posted by LionJeetSinghI'm not entirely too sure what led to Benoit's push, but I'm pretty sure that Eddie's push was the result of Smackdown being the top rated cable show among Latinos. That also explains why Rey Misterio is heavily pushed.

So workrate had nothing to do with it.

Eddie also got SUPERMEGAOVER during the "Smackdown 6" era without any special backing from management, and has remained one of the most over faces in the company. Eddie's work had more than a little something to do with it. To *NOT* give him the belt for that reason would have been insane. So to say "workrate had nothing to do with it" is a bit misleading. His workrate & charisma got him over to the point where they had no choice but to give him the belt.

I like the "Zig Zag," it's reminiscent of a time when moves got names like the Zig Zag. Maria has terrible taste in men, btw. "SWF former wrestling reporter seeks arrogant man who cheats at wrestling. Must allow me to pose nude."