QUIVERFULL: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement ~ A Review

The reason I am telling my story now (as opposed to 10 years from now when my kids are grown up and I actually have time to write), is because I came across this article on Alternet and read with interest about the people and the teachings which our family had followed for many years. I was kind of amazed that someone on that liberal news site knew about this movement ~ so I posted a comment on the article ~ and that’s how I got in touch with Kathryn Joyce, author of Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement.

I pre-ordered the book and as I read it, I kept saying aloud, “I know these people!” All the names were familiar to me ~ Nancy Campbell, Mary Pride, Doug Phillips, Phil Lancaster, R.C. Sproul Jr., Debi Pearl, Anna Sophia Botkins, Jennie Chancey … “Wow,” I thought, “she even interviewed Charles Provan!” I used to own nearly every book mentioned in Quiverfull ~ and, yes ~ I read them all … starting with The Way Home: Beyond Feminism and Back to Reality, the book which really started the current patriarchy movement that’s becoming so popular among homeschoolers. Isn’t it interesting that it has mostly been the WOMEN who are writing these books, teaching seminars, and leading other women into this life of subordination?

I really want to just encourage everyone who has been touched by the Quiverfull philosophy in any way to read this book. I wish I could quote the whole thing for you ~ and then sit back and read the comments which would sound something like, “OMFG!” and “Is this stuff for real? ~ People actually believe this and live this way?!!”Yes ~ it’s true. The thing is, those of us who followed (and are still following) the Quiverfull / patriarchal lifestyle got into it gradually ~ just a little at a time. For us, it started with homeschooling which seemed pretty radical at the time. It was at our state’s annual home school conference that I was introduced to some of the movement’s books ~ mostly through Vision Forum, a supplier of Classical Education curriculum.

I started out with Nancy Campbell’s “lovely” vision for godly wives and mothers … discovered Phil Lancaster’s Patriarch magazine which spread the idea to the men … then found S.M. Davis’s “Solve Family Problems” series in which the dynamic and often vehement (my kids said he just yelled a lot) preacher set us straight about what constitutes a truly godly family ~ and what dedicated Christian wouldn’t want to do whatever the Lord requires to please Him and to be a “blameless” example of righteous living to our friends, family and community?

Now I will admit that when Debi Pearl came out with her book, Created to Be His Help Meet ~ even I couldn’t stomach it. I guess there must have been some residual lesson I’d learned after trying to follow the bible study ladies’ advice about how to be a perfect, godly wife in order to win my abusive, unfaithful first husband to the Lord ~ but I just couldn’t support Pearl’s book wholeheartedly the way I had Campbell’s God’s Vision for Families or Pride’s All The Way Home: Power for Your Family To Be Its Best. I remember one Sunday morning when Laura brought Created to Be His Help Meet to our home church and was raving about what an awesome book it was and how she was putting Debi Pearl’s ideas into practice and could already see a change in the way Dale was treating her. Ugh. Poor Laura!

To me, the most startling part of Joyce’s book Quiverfull, is the section towards the back entitled “Daughters.” Actually, I am ashamed to admit that I used to look at Anna Sophia and Elizabeth Botkins with awe and envy ~ why couldn’t my girls comprehend these Visionary Daughters’ inspiring insight on godly femininity? I actually bought So Much More: The Remarkable Influence of Visionary Daughters on the Kingdom of God for Angel’s birthday and sent it to her in Nashville in the hopes that she would finally understand how much simpler her life would be if only she could “get” the idea that the only way to true liberation and peace is to follow her father and submit herself to his authority.

When I talked to Kathryn Joyce over the phone as she was interviewing me for an article on Salon.com, I told her I found it very affirming that for most of the book, she simply sticks to quoting the movement leaders ~ often with no commentary at all. “What that said to me,” I explained, “is that to those who aren’t steeped in this particular worldview, the craziness of it all is self-evident. There’s no need to say, ‘This is total crap!’ because anyone who isn’t already convinced can clearly see that it’s truly insane to try and live this way.”

Something else I really appreciate about this book ~ Quiverfull puts the whole movement on display all at once. The reason this is important is that for most families, getting into this lifestyle is a step-by-step process ~ a progression from “peculiar” to seriously bizarre which takes place incrementally over a period of many years.

If a family home educates their children in order to spare them from the humanistic curriculum in the public school ~ they’ll soon pick up on the extra-biblical, humanistic teachings which have filtered into the church as well. And if that family recognizes the spiritual danger of allowing their kids to spend a lot of time in the company of public school peers, it’s a small step to keeping the family together for church worship rather than sending the children to the age-segregated Sunday School program. Once a couple comprehends that children are precious in God’s sight from the moment of conception ~ how could they possibly expect to witness to the pro-life message with any semblance of credibility when they ~ by their use of birth control ~ have accepted the “abortion mentality” ~ that babies are only a blessing when they fit into their parents’ lifestyle conveniently? And once they’ve eschewed birth control and the babies start coming in rapid succession ~ Michael Pearl’s child training advice is going to be a life-saver. This is just a very brief example of how it all fits together into a comprehensive worldview which makes absolutely perfect sense to the family who started out simply looking for a supportive community of like-minded Believers which would uphold their family’s biblical values in the eyes of their children.

Twenty years ago, if I would have read Quiverfull, I believe seeing the big picture of where we were headed would have shocked us enough to cause me to take a good, hard look ~ no doubt, I’d have gone elsewhere in my search for solutions to the everyday problems of family life. No way could you interest me in a harsh, demanding lifestyle of lots of babies (well, you still maybe could have convinced me of that part, since I do love babies), home schooling, home birth, home business, home church, no children’s programs, no teenagers (Quiverfullers do not have teenagers ~ that’s for another post), no dating, parents choosing their children’s spouses, husband making all the decisions and wife not daring to make the slightest commitment without first obtaining her husband’s approval, no TV, only G- and some PG-rated movies, and absolutely NO Harry Potter.

Taken as a whole ~ there really is no appeal to the Quiverfull / patriarchy lifestyle ~ no matter how “biblical” it is and how “godly” a family might become by following those God-ordained family roles. It is my contention that this way of living is a package deal. Once a family takes that first step ~ if they’re living it logically and consistently ~ they’ll eventually find themselves living out pretty much the whole program ~ the “Vision” which, in its entirety ~ as clearly depicted in Quiverfull ~ turns out, in practicality, to be a very real, living nightmare.

Vyckie, I want to ask you and Laura a question but don’t want to hurt or offend you (or anyone who has a similar background to both of you). Please forgive my ignorance. My question is: how did two women who married and had kids so young and who had no formal higher education (correct me if I’m wrong; perhaps I missed the part in your posts where you describe attending university) become such sophisticated, well-spoken, artful writers? Heck, your narrative voices and styles are superior to those of several of my colleagues from grad school!I am not one of those who believes (wrongly) that higher education is a magic pill that confers skill and that lack of formal education is a recipe for inarticulateness. But, college does give people many more opportunities to assemble complicated theses and to express emotions more elgantly than “I felt hurt.” College gives students (at least those without children and family commitments) multiple chances to refine their writing style and spend time learning to find their own “voice.” Reading your blog, I’m continually astonished that two people who married so young and had to immediately turn to the tending of *so many* children found ways to continue or maintain their own educations. Did you take correspondence classes? Writing workshops? Did you just read an awful lot of good literature (and how did you find the time?)? I have had so many inarticulate college-educated friends that to read your uniformly beautifully written posts only highlights the fact that formal education doesn’t mean as much as mainstream society would have us believe.(On the other hand, just in case any Christian–or Muslim or Jewish!–patriarchal families are reading this, scratch that last thought. I don’t want to give the impression, propogated by the Botkins, that women can be so adequately educated at home that there is never an “excuse” or need for girls to go to college.) Anyway, long story short: if you find a way to publish your memoirs, forget ghostwriters! You two are utterly captivating writers who could write a best-seller all on your own. I am glued to your stories here, not only because the material is so compelling and heartbreaking, but because you express yourselves with such clarity and grace.–a person who found you through a Christian anti-patriarchy site

EK ~ thanks so much for the compliment ;-)Keep reading ~ I’m getting to the part in my story where I actually did go to college for a while ~ totally LOVED IT! Also ~ I published a family newspaper for about 15 years ~ so there was an opportunity to write too. Guess I’m one of those persons who think by writing ~ finding just the right words to express myself helps me to understand what I think, feel and believe.As for Laura ~ she’s just plain talented 😉 Take care!

I’m going to have to get this book. I too am enjoying your blogging. Very thought provoking toward my personal recovery from the abuses I experienced under the yoke of bondage.In your last paragraph, I would put “God ordained family roles” in quotes as I don’t believe its true that they are “God ordained”. Its rather like a Tower of Babel built by humans, not a genuinely God honoring lifestyle.BTW Vyckie, I love babies too! When my firstborn told me that she is constantly asked why she has so many younger sibs, I told her to tell them “my mother is addicted to babies” 🙂 I used to want another baby just after the youngest turned 2. And I don’t regret having 8 children. Although- at nearly 50 now- with children between 6-24, I find mothering drains a great deal of emotional energy, on everything from the two daughters weddings in planning this year to the behavior problems my young 6 and 8 yo sons are having in school. Still, I have no regrets about having 8 children. I feel blessed.

Yeah, mom…that book you sent me was BS! I remember Pastor Tom reading some of it and saying, “I really think this is a cult!” And I was protesting, “NO! it’s not!” And being so mad that he thought that cause it would just get me into trouble…One more thing: The reason my mom and Laura are so intelectual is partly due to the fact that they were TEACHERS of several children for years. You do learn a lot when you homeschool, because it’s often a higher form of education. Many schools don’t get to use the Romanticism style of teaching, where the education is measured in the DEPTH, not the BREADTH. So, when we learned something, we learned it all the way. lol

Vyckie,Such a fabulous review of the book. I’m definitely going to buy it. But also, as EK says, brilliantly and succinctly written, too. It seems to me that you are saying something which I always suspected–that homeschooling became a kind of “gateway drug” for the movement. I noticed years ago that two kinds of people were pulling their kids out of public schools–people who thought there was too much g-d and conformity and people who thought there was too little *but only one group had really organized to create and push materials for homeschooling and to create a kind of pseudo community for those families. I thought about home schooling (for about five minutes) because I’m really better educated than any teacher my kids have ever had–except in math and science–but I couldn’t stomach the alienation from the community or the available community of religious people who would have become our defacto associates.Please keep writing and blogging about your experiences. You are illuminating a world, and lighting a path out, for all your readers.aimai

“Isn’t it interesting that it has mostly been the WOMEN who are writing these books, teaching seminars, and leading other women into this life of subordination?”I honestly don’t find it so. Over here in the BDSM community*, I’ve observed the urge to submit is far stronger than the urge to dominate. * where men often control women without the benefit or need of a religious mandate, where “voluntary slavery” isn’t a contradiction and where everybody does this under everyone else’s express consent and often signed contracts

OH. Wow. I need to get a copy of that book. I’m in my mid-thirties, but even for me, it all started with The Way Home. Ha! So crazy. And yes, I recognize all those names too. And yes, I wasn’t going to have teenagers (hey, I listened to the Reb Bradley and Jonathan Lindvall tapes, so I knew there was no such thing). I even wrote super positive blog articles (on my first blog, now dead) about Debi’s marriage book, not to mentioned handed out To Train Up A Child to anyone who didn’t have perfect kids. *groaning sigh* And you are so right—-just quoting what is actually said is all a person needs to do. It’s right there, in black and white, and it’s absolutely crazy. Yet somehow, when it’s just a little piece at a time,a person is slowly innoculated to how crazy it has gotten… Like a frog in a pot, I guess. Keep writing! You guys have more guts than I do (I’m not quite yet at a “tell all” place, and may never be). I’m so glad you are telling your story. There are others of us who are as well, and I have a feeling the numbers of broken battered people exiting the “Biblical Family” camp are only going to keep climbing. You are helping to pave the way for those who are coming, and your words will help to give them strength to know that GETTING OUT IS POSSIBLE. ((((hugs))))) Molly

Thank you for your blog …. and for providing a real counterbalance to the insanity. I heard about the Q movement on NPR this am .. and it astounds me that people are completly missing the fact that there are already 8 billion people on this small planet, our oceans and other resources are becoming rapidly depleated, hundreds of thousands of children need families …. and yet – God wants us to have more children. What happened to the part about being stewards of his creation…. May we all take better care of each other and the planet – and hold up to the light those who hold self aggrandizing “doctrines” in the name of rightousness.

I grew up with a mother desperate to enter this community and an Egletarian, Minister father who wasn’t buying it in the least. You cannot imagine the dynamic of a mother trying to submissively browbeat your family into this community. She spent my whole life trying to covertly groom me to step into her dreams and live in this world.At 32, there are exactly 2 priniciples I held onto after examining things with my own brain. I desired to have a large family (3 of my 8 are adopted and if there are more they will all be adopted as the last 2 birthchildren were surprises from failed birth control–progressively more aggressive birth control at that). Second, when you doubt the education from the public school and can’t afford private, you can homeschool.Some of us are able to see the rest of the package and run as fast and far as we can. But, it is a very seductive set of principles in this cult–and yes it IS a loosely but growing cult people. My fear is not so much for your generation where you ladies knew something else and walked yourselves into it. But, I fear for my generation who has been taught to never, ever think contrary to this beief system, who have no friends nor family removed from it and are nbelievably vunerable to use, abuse and a lifetime of soul sucking. And even worse those who like the Pearls have denounced participating in Sodom and Gamorah and have no legal protections for themselves and their children should the movement rise up like a snake and bite them.Were not for the level headed wisdom of my father to counter this nonsense, I would be dead or living in mortal fear for embracing my husband’s upcoming vasectomy to protect my life after my infant son’s traumatic entry 3 months ago that required 3 units of blood to return me to functional.Jo

One of the major “points” that the Q movement makes is that there’s all this “empty land” in the middle of the country, the old prarie states, and I read a blog post by a woman arguing that the Q movement can “fill it all up!” while the wicked abortionist feminist population mongers, out of fear of overpopulation, will just let it empty out. I pointed out that the reason those towns are dying isn’t that enough people aren’t having enough children its just that the children people are having are moving away looking for jobs. Just because one town in america has a declining population doesn’t mean those people are dead, or didn’t ever exist, it means they moved into the cities in search of work. She got very huffy with me because these things are only connected very dimly in the movement. You see “demographic winter” or whatever the big scare movie is and you become frightened and simply forget to use your head. We survived as a country very nicely with far fewer people twenty and thirty years ago. towns and states are always growing and dying. People need work and, as you all observe, teenagers and young adults need jobs too or they can’t stay “on the farm.”aimai

The title of the book raises a concern for me, “Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement.”In the title, there is an equivalency made between QF = Patriarchy. However while they are often seen together, I’d say they are two different philosophies that often merge but are not the same. Was the distinction made in the book?

And like Mollie. . . I can’t believe that I read Mary Pride’s books as a young teenager in. . . what. . . ’89-’90? Impacted me greatly. I have less regrets than you do, probably because my husband didn’t buy into all the crap. But I still think that it was very unhealthy to read and adore Mary Pride.My husband has his imperfections, but he isn’t domineering or controlling. Patriarchy, complementarianism, egalitarianism. . . honestly, I don’t care to read or research or analyze. What we have in our marriage relationship works.

You wrote: “No way could you interest me in a harsh, demanding lifestyle of lots of babies (well, you still maybe could have convinced me of that part, since I do love babies), home schooling, home birth, home business, home church, no children’s programs, no teenagers (Quiverfullers do not have teenagers ~ that’s for another post), no dating, parents choosing their children’s spouses, husband making all the decisions and wife not daring to make the slightest commitment without first obtaining her husband’s approval, no TV, only G- and some PG-rated movies, and absolutely NO Harry Potter.”I’d like to point out that there is nothing inherently wrong with any of those things in a family. In fact, our family matches a lot of that list, even though I’d never heard of the Patriarchy/Quiverfull mindset as a movement until I ran across your story. My husband and I have a normal, generally happy marriage. Our (four) kids are ordinary, pretty good kids. I think it’s not the movement that’s wrong. It’s when the ideal gets distorted and overdone that things go bad; for example, as in your case, men who go overboard on the patriarchy and become controlling and abusive.After reading your story, I’m very grateful that we have somehow avoided falling off the deep end, even though it meant we sometimes alienated friends (whom I now understand were sucked into the movement) because we weren’t conservative enough (My daughter and I didn’t wear dresses all the time! We allowed music with drums!), and we also sometimes alienated other friends who thought we were bizarre (We don’t have a TV! We didn’t patronize the youth group!) I’m so sorry you have been hurt by something that started out good and ended up bad, and I ache for you and all the other women that are being hurt. I just wish there was some way to help you to not throw out the baby with the bath water. It’s not God who is bad and hurtful; it’s the mis-handling of truth that is so dangerous. The most dangerous lie is the one that is mostly true.

I’m still trying to work out why women are so attracted to this movement. I knew many women when I was in it who earnestly desired their husbands to embrace it and their husbands were pretty much apathetic. For every patriarchal overlord there are 10 guys who would rather just watch sports on tv. I remember women really agonizing over trying to get their husbands to read a book about it, or leaving Patriarchy magazine in the bathroom hoping it would get at least looked at.Sometimes it’s because their marriage sucks and they are trying to fix it via the formula presented by this movement which promises a beautiful perfect family.I came to the movement through Above Rubies which I first discovered 21 years ago. At the time I was an extremely isolated, lonely and increasingly abused young mother with my first two kids. I had zero support, no family, and very patchy friendships with people who lived no where near me. I was very vulnerable and often deeply traumatized by my husband’s rages.. and I was intensely lonely. We joined a cell group from our church (one of those churches where people lived far and wide and commuted to it) and were asked to leave after my toddler cried the whole time and my husband carried him around the house seething with rage.. I remember the pain of getting that letter telling us not to come back, it was like being stabbed. We were in another para church group that was an hour away from us but my ability to go to it was based on how I had behaved that day, my husband would use any excuse to drive off without me. I seemed to have no resources, or it was just insurmountable to try and access what few I did have..I spent all day, every day at home with my small children. When I came across a few Above Rubies magazines I read them avidly, they were the only encouragement I’d ever had about being a mom and they were like a caring, loving, motherly balm to my pain. Three years later someone lent me a copy of The Way Home. I was completely sucked in. As I said in a previous comment, these teachings gilded the cage I was unable to break out of, apparently it was God’s plan all along that these were my only options in life and if I just followed this plan much more carefully my husband would become a wonderful father and stop raging at me. The one thing it did do for me that was positive is give me access to a community of women via homeschool meetings (which I was grudgingly allowed to attend once a month, though there were consequences to it), magazines etc.. Homeschooling had immediately excited me because I was already afraid of the effects of public school for my children as I had hated school intensely myself. Very few start down this road without ending up with the whole package.

I guess I should count myself lucky.While I was homeschooling, I saw Mary Pride’s stuff, above rubies, and heard about the “father’s” role in homeschooling but just instinctively knew not to get my husband involved. He already had a problem with thinking of himself as the chairman of the board. He already had a hard time allowing me to homeschool as I felt was best. I knew enough that my style was nothing like his style. And if anyone gave him an inch to tell me what to do in that area, he would have taken a mile. And I would have withered under it. The kids too since he had NO patience.I still love homeschooling. They were some of the best years of my life. I’d go back if I could.I am so sorry to see what Patriarchy and Quiverfull have done to it.Mara

From reading your stories I am realizing how guilty the homeschool movement has been in propogating these lies. When I walked the isles of our state conference observing the large families, I admired the couples who I thought prayerfully committed to this way of life just like pure organic farmers or self sufficiency families. I am grateful that I chose not participate in the structured Christian community and followed a more personal approach. I also withdrew from the conferences as I found the internet just as available and special offers were offered less and less at the conferences. Like Vickye’s release from oppression as she flew to her mother’s withdrawing from the influence of the homeschool community allowed me to more clearly see the pervasive teaching for what it was. I also began to experience that release from oppression when I took my one annual weekend to scrapbook with friends at a camp nearby. I could suddenly see the blue sky and think clearly about issues and arrive at intelligent resolutions that I could never have concluded inside the fog of my husband’s domineerance. I really thought that this was God’s leading to stand back from these communities and I am blessed that I was able to observe this disfunctional setting by doing so. I truly thought in withdrawing that I was being ‘peculiar’ and bizaar when in actuality I was being sane.Dove

During my evangelical phase, I never read any of the aforementioned books, but did listen to plenty of Christian radio. From Bob Larson to Focus on the Family to Charles Stanley to Joyce Meyer and on & on, not one of those broadcasters would have batted an eye at the extreme ideas of the Quiverfull movement. They may not have said "This is the only way to go," but they all specifically endorsed components of it. And every one, very much like the Wahabi movement in Islam, was centered around segregating the sexes and keeping women subject to men. Every one of them.

Something else occurs to me. Because I was raised by both a Christian and a Jewish parent, I explored both religions. There’s a parallel movement in Judaism right now as well. Plenty of my college classmates, raised as Reform Jews, to the point of nearly being secular or humanist, decided they wanted to be more “authentically” Jewish and stepped into neo-Orthodoxy. Very patriarchal. Move to a Jewish enclave, and again, no birth control, have as many children as you can, as soon as you can. Arranged marriages. Homeschooling. Et cetera.

Isn’t it interesting that it has mostly been the WOMEN who are writing these books, teaching seminars, and leading other women into this life of subordination?well, that’s actually something i’ve witnessed quite a lot, and in two different ways1)a sort of “modern life fatigue”, which befalls all women. I have a lot of very independent friends who do occasionally yearn for a “provider”, i.e. a man who will take care of all the problems of the outside world. with that particular, non-religious set of women, the “gold-digger” is more often the setting they talk about, i.e. the rich husband who just needs a pretty trophy wife who doesn’t need to work, worry about bills etc. and who can sit around the pool all day sipping martinis.I guess for the religious, the equivalent is to simply be a mother, and nothing but a mother, because let’s face it: many women do enjoy being a mother!2)for women already stuck in certain lifestyles, the need for self-justification is immense. NO victim wants to think of themselves as a victim, so they will adopt a mentality that will allow them to think of what they’re doing as their choice, the right choice. and it doesn’t matter if it’s returning to the abusive drunk husband “because he really loves me, and he isn’t always like that”, or being part of the quiverfull movement, or being a Indian arranged bride because “just think of how much stress you can save yourself if you don’t ever have to worry about dating, being popular, or if you’ll ever find the one!”, or even have yourself and your own daughters undergo FGM, because they want to be more desirable.

Ah, this is AWESOME!I too am coming out from under legalism and a toxic faith/spirituality. With me, the awareness that something was askew, just revealed itself to me slightly, gradually, and consistantly. I followed that ‘gut feeling’ that was emerging and then looked for a better way. I had to read many books on shame, toxic faith, religious abuse. My abuse, or absuing was not as deep perhaps as some, yet it still had me SOOOOO sick! It is all encompassing/permeating/progressive/chronic. I am so glad I am OUT and on a new path and even though life is still nuts and crazy and I havent arrived, I feel a peace that I never knew before. Fighting my shame has been such an uphill battle and I am still in counseling after 5 years of leaving “The Olden Days”. I love talking to other people about shame and toxic spirituality and sharing about myself, or listening to them share. I only have a very small number of people who ‘get it’, but I am looking forward to the future and am so thrilled when others find the new way to truly ‘work out their salvation’. I quitted homeschooling, quitted my quiver, quitted church, and quitted lots of other junk.Ive replaced it with painting my nails, wearing tank tops, listening to Avril Lavinge (the gal UNDERSTANDS me!), and saying ‘crap’ when its really crap. Life is good. Bless you for this blog; im adding it to my list!Cant wait to read all of it thus far!Monika

Welcome, Monika! Hey ~ I’ve been painting my nails too ~ fun, huh? LOLI know exactly the “thrill” you describe here ~ I have felt so HAPPY just to be free of the bondage and oppression ~ I seriously CANNOT get depressed these days ~ even when life is overwhelming and I have no idea what I’m doing or why I’m doing it.Avril Lavinge, eh? I’m going to have to check it out 😉

Hmmm, that is interesting to me that so many women chose the Quiverful lifestyle for themselves and their families. In my case, it was the exact opposite. A husband who wanted to further establish himself as the “head of the household” tried to pressure me into going off birth control, into getting involved with religious women with children, and into allowing him to be the sole breadwinner and financial manager. I am sure that if I’d been talked into having the children that he wanted me to have and staying at home with them, I would have had to find a way to justify it. In many ways it was easier for me to walk away because I was certain that children were not what I wanted, but it was still a struggle.

>>Isn't it interesting that it has mostly been the WOMEN who are writing these books, teaching seminars, and leading other women into this life of subordination<<Actually, I think this is the result of a couple of things. For one, by and large women tend to be more verbal. We tend to communicate more. The sense I got from QUIVERFULL–and I add my thumb's up to yours–is that writing these books and teaching these seminars is an outlet these women could have that would give them leadership without impinging on territory commonly granted to men. They can bring extra money into the home as a bonus, and the man can acquire extra brownie points by pointing out a spouse who brings other women and girls into the right way of thinking. She becomes a diamond in his crown, as long as she doesn't go getting uppity about it. From the way Joyce described these writers, they take great pride in following their own ideas at home, to show they work.Also, I ask people not to trash homeschooling in general. I'm connected in a peripheral way to homeschooling for gifted children and children with learning and physical disabilites. Homeschooling saved the sanity of some of my young friends and their families. Like religion, it has its good side and its good people!

In the complentarian world it’s men more than women who are pushing female subordination. Men like Wayne Grudem, Paige Patterson, Bruce Ware and Marc Driscoll.Check out http://www.cbeinternational.org for people who support egalitarianism.

Talk about books one is embarrassed to have read–back in the 70s many of us Hare Krishna women were reading Helen Andelin’s “Fascinating Womanhood.” There was even a book for the men by her husband: “Man of Steel and Velvet.” FW was all about how being feminine and submissive and chaste would make your marriage better, and we felt it went right along with what we were told to be and do as devotee women. I thought it would help me stop the abuse I was taking from my former husband. Fat chance!I homeschooled my daughter for a few years because the school system failed her utterly as a learning disabled student. I was desperate to get her reading. She was 12 with a reading level at first grade. I brought her up to 7th grade level in one year.Our town had a great program for home-schoolers where we could use their books and network with other home-schooled kids for group activities, use their computers and so on. We had regular meetings with a teacher who supervised the program so we could get advice and ask questions.It was vastly superior to what I observed in the special ed classroom where they spent most of their time corralling the hyperactive boys.There are all different varieties of home school and reasons for choosing to do it. Not all of them lead to Quiverfull. 🙂

Talk about books one is embarrassed to have read–back in the 70s many of us Hare Krishna women were reading Helen Andelin’s “Fascinating Womanhood.” There was even a book for the men by her husband: “Man of Steel and Velvet.” FW was all about how being feminine and submissive and chaste would make your marriage better, and we felt it went right along with what we were told to be and do as devotee women. I thought it would help me stop the abuse I was taking from my former husband. Fat chance!I homeschooled my daughter for a few years because the school system failed her utterly as a learning disabled student. I was desperate to get her reading. She was 12 with a reading level at first grade. I brought her up to 7th grade level in one year.Our town had a great program for home-schoolers where we could use their books and network with other home-schooled kids for group activities, use their computers and so on. We had regular meetings with a teacher who supervised the program so we could get advice and ask questions.It was vastly superior to what I observed in the special ed classroom where they spent most of their time corralling the hyperactive boys.There are all different varieties of home school and reasons for choosing to do it. Not all of them lead to Quiverfull. 🙂