Can we talk about the Game of Thrones thread Moderation?

I'm not sure if this is the right avenue, but, IIRC mods@ars doesn't work anymore, so...

It seems like ffifield's moderation here is a little over the top, banning a whole subset of Ars users from posting in a specific thread. Has this ever happened anywhere across the fora? Seems unprecedented to me.

Would it not be more fair to deal with this on a user by user basis? If mods felt that certain members were acting in bad faith?

I'd like to think that I haven't said anything "spoilery" in that thread, but to now be banned from it simply because I've read the books, I find offensive.

[e] To add,

This is what rubs me the wrong way, specifically, "Book readers, shut the fuck up"

And I think Agathos & Starbuck make a good point as incomplete readers.

The real problem with that moderation is there's no grey area. I should probably stay out, since I'm ahead of the show now. But what about people that have just started with book one, or are trying to stay behind the show? They're all foisted out now, too.

Plus, as I've tried pointing out, a lot of the more refined "book" talk (the non-spoilery stuff) has already been put out there by HBO. Case in point. Does anyone that mention stuff from that have to leave the thread?

Rather than continuing to comment about moderation in the referenced thread, I've followed the posting guidelines and bought my concerns to the mod email.

While I greatly respect the desires of the Lounge moderators to keep the Game of Thrones discuss threads separated between those with book spoilers and those without I respectfully feel that Moderator ffifield had overstepped reasonable moderation with threats of banning all admitted "book readers" from the thread.

"And just in case I've not made myself perfectly clear, Book readers, shut the fuck up and stay out of the thread if you can't play nice. You have your own thread. Go there. Make fun of the viewers. Discuss how fucked up their ideas are, how clueless they are, whatever."

As a Ars subscriber, and someone who enjoys reading the GoT books after the current seasons, I greatly enjoy posting and reading the "show only' thread and am VERY careful about posting and responding to only those scenes shown in the show. I also find that the majority of admitted "book readers" who participate in that thread are also very careful. I don't want to be spoiled and go out of my way not to spoil anyone else.

There seem to be some confusion on the posters in the thread ffifield statement is the official position of the moderation staff. For three seasons now, the position of the thread seems to be that anyone was free to participate in the thread as long as they restricted posts to show spoilers only. Now there seems to be a change in the official position of the thread.

Can you please clarify if ffifield's comment is the official position of the moderation team? Are "book readers" who are extremely careful about what they post no longer welcome in the thread at all?

Also, regardless of ffifield's intentions and unstandable frustration, I believe his tone is unbecoming the normally high standards of the moderation team.

I'll +++ everything Starbuck said. Personally, I refrain from posting much in the non-book thread, since I'm hyper-sensitive to saying something that might be a spoiler. But what I think the book readers do bring to that thread is the ability to point out little things that might have been missed by the show-only crowd, since it appeared to be a throw-away moment in some episode 2 years ago. I don't think it's the least bit spoilerish or assholeish for people to help out that way.

Certainly punishing those who aren't careful, or spoil stuff just out of spite. But the idea of telling the book readers to fuck off because someone thinks they're revealing too much, when they aren't actually doing so seems pretty heavy handed, and lacking of reasoning. Frankly, the mod notice seemed more pissed that there are people who know more than he does, over that knowledge actually getting revealed.

But what I think the book readers do bring to that thread is the ability to point out little things that might have been missed by the show-only crowd, since it appeared to be a throw-away moment in some episode 2 years ago. I don't think it's the least bit spoilerish or assholeish for people to help out that way

To clarify, I believe that theKaj is referring to moments in the show that happened in previous seasons, not "filling in the blanks" from the books. That should continue to be a no no, IMO.

There have been three previous moderation comments asking readers 'nicely' to refrain from posting. My moderation comment is effective in that finally one of us was able to say it in a way that got your attention. It's too bad you didn't take the 'nicer' moderation comments more seriously.

Let the viewer only people figure the show out on their own. If they missed something so be it. Oftentimes what is "missed" wasn't in the show anyway and is still a spoiler since things unfold differently in the books than they do in the show.

Official moderation notice.

I agree. I don't know what it is with the book readers but really guys, shut the fuck up. Despite how clever you think you are you're not helping. I'm getting real close to making this thread off limits to anyone who's identified themselves as having read any part of the books.

Really, what's your point? Can't abide the viewers wishes to not be spoiled or foreshadowed in any way? Or are you just assholes?

And just in case I've not made myself perfectly clear, Book readers, shut the fuck up and stay out of the thread if you can't play nice. You have your own thread. Go there. Make fun of the viewers. Discuss how fucked up their ideas are, how clueless they are, whatever.

If you decide not to heed this last warning I will ban you from posting in this thread, and if that doesn't work then we'll go to warnings and unwanted posting vacations.

Tact. You lack it.

There has been a dozen warnings at this point and some people are simply too fucking dense to get it. We are all out of tact.

I dont understand the need by book readers to post in the non-book thread. Is it an attention craving, "guys, I'm in the know, I read books " kind of thing? It just seems super lame and attention whoring to see people dropping hints or even dropping out there that they read the books.

I approve of the iron fist moderation on this specific instance because it will do a good job preventing the smartasses, and I dont understand why you simply feel the NEED to be part of the discussion. Can't you just read the thread? Do you really need to be yabbering your mind when near a conversation that interests you? That is annoying. Dont blame the mods, blame the huge losers who have created this situation because they felt it important that people on the internet pay attention to them because they have extra information about a TV show.

There have been three previous moderation comments asking readers 'nicely' to refrain from posting. My moderation comment is effective in that finally one of us was able to say it in a way that got your attention. It's too bad you didn't take the 'nicer' moderation comments more seriously.

Let the viewer only people figure the show out on their own. If they missed something so be it. Oftentimes what is "missed" wasn't in the show anyway and is still a spoiler since things unfold differently in the books than they do in the show.

The problem is that you were not moderating a specific post or poster. You were making a broad claim against all book readers.

Can we get a clarification for the entire team that the thread is now off limits for all book readers or not? I would like to know if I am "allowed" to participate in a thread that I enjoy, and how not broken a single guideline or moderation decree?"

I agree with you 100% about pointing out something that happened in the books and not the show. But is it the official position of the mod staff that you cannot point out things that actually happened on the show?

The real problem with that moderation is there's no grey area. I should probably stay out, since I'm ahead of the show now. But what about people that have just started with book one, or are trying to stay behind the show? They're all foisted out now, too.

I think you can thank uncanny consistency of every single attempt to moderate these threads with a lighter touch ending in tears and recriminations. Every single one. No exceptions. None. Every. Single. Time.

Sure it starts off well intentioned with someone mentioning some subtle and unimportant point that actually is in the show but perhaps without a lot of detail, even with most people staying silent as they have been asked. Fast forward half a page and there's an intense, completely spoilered discussion between two book readers. One in every 15-20 of those posts accidentally doesn't spoiler something. Then you've got the "helpers" who escalate from clarifications on past events to clarifications on future events, who think that's okay because it's background information, not the reveal. Inevitably one of these guys ignores all the people yelling at him to stop because he knows the books really well and knows exactly how far he can go without actually giving away the reveal. He gets into an intense, spoilered argument. Another half page and you have fucking enormous spoilers getting posted in the open. The mods might get around to cleaning that up 12 hours later, but that's obviously too late, it's not like they're on call.

Basically, we can't have a dedicated TV thread without book readers being shot on sight.

Logically, if you are a reader who is playing nice, the ban doesn't apply to you.

Except for the threat later that ALL self described "book readers" would be banned for the violations of others. Even those who never mention the books in any way.

I am 100% in favor of warnings or bans against specific posters who break the "no book spoilers rule." I even agree with mentions of "Go read the books, it explains it better."

But just because someone has read some of the books, does not on it's own make them bad posters.

But the position of "All Book Readers will be banned" or are no longer welcome in that thread was NEVER the official position of any of the "Show Only" threads. It was a ban on book spoilers of anykind.

If this is the official new position of the moderation team, we need to know formally.

THe challenge for anyone is separating events from the show from their counterparts int he books. thekaj makes a good point, that we can add to the conversation when the conversation is about a specific thing shown in the show. An example would be when someone showed surprise that Loras was gay. I pointed out that he was Renly's lover in the first season. Not a spoiler. Just a clarification. I don't think the moderation notice has anything to do with that.

Where I think it can quickly get off track is when people try to discern and debate the motivations of the characters and the historical relationship between events and people. That is WAAAY too tempting of a topic for a book reader and that's where we get into trouble. It's that kind of conversation that can't happen in the thread. It might not even be intentional, but IMHO, it is far to easy to slip in a few facts etc from the books without realizing it or thinking that it was of no consequence.

IMHO, if you want to get into those ideas, take them to the book thread, otherwise just read and comment on the events of the show.

Especially since the book thread is discussing things wantonly that is very much a spoiler to someone that hasn't read all of the books yet. (I'm trying to rein it in right now via discussion.) I'm barely into book four, have been behaving very much so in the non-spoiler thread, and BAM-major plot points for end of book five posted randomly in the spoiler thread.That's why I was mentioning the grey area.

Also, this?

Quote:

Logically, if you are a reader who is playing nice, the ban doesn't apply to you.

Was nowhere near the original moderation, and still isn't. Put it in and I'm betting we'll stop bitching.

Can't you just be like those National Geographic photographers who observe wild life but never interfere? Can't you just read the thread? Or is the urge to participate and show the ignorant savages that you know better way too strong?

Outside the internet, let's say, in a bar, if you hear a conversation you are not part of, do you get pissy if the participants politely ask you repeatedly to stay out, then finally tell you to please walk the fuck away?

Do you really believe you are entitled to be part of every conversation you can read or hear?

Can't you just be like those National Geographic photographers who observe wild life but never interfere? Can't you just read the thread? Or is the urge to participate and show the ignorant savages that you know better way too strong?

Outside the internet, let's say, in a bar, if you hear a conversation you are not part of, do you get pissy if the participants politely ask you repeatedly to stay out, then finally tell you to please walk the fuck away?

Do you really believe you are entitled to be part of every conversation you can read or hear?

Why do you feel entitled to tell people they can't participate in a discussion? The vast majority of "book readers" are enjoy the show as a show and aren't spoiling anything. They should no longer be allowed to post at all about the show?

Can't you just be like those National Geographic photographers who observe wild life but never interfere? Can't you just read the thread? Or is the urge to participate and show the ignorant savages that you know better way too strong?

Outside the internet, let's say, in a bar, if you hear a conversation you are not part of, do you get pissy if the participants politely ask you repeatedly to stay out, then finally tell you to please walk the fuck away?

Do you really believe you are entitled to be part of every conversation you can read or hear?

Why do you feel entitled to tell people they can't participate in a discussion?

Dude, its just MANNERS. If the main participants of a discussion politely ask you to not be a part of it, just stand back and listen. Is it so hard to just listen (or read) some times? Or do you have a need to make everyone around you know what you are thinking?

It works the same way outside the internet. If after multiple requests you insist to butt in then these people are gonna stop making polite requests. Who are you gonna complain to then? The teachers? their parents?

The vast majority of "book readers" are enjoy the show as a show and aren't spoiling anything. They should no longer be allowed to post at all about the show?

Yup, because book readers are guaranteed to fuck it up every single time.

Book readers are capable of limiting their comments to purely show content in exactly the same way alcoholics are capable of having just one drink. Even if you've managed to pull it off we either ask you to stay out or all non book readers will eventually be forced to leave.

Logically, if you are a reader who is playing nice, the ban doesn't apply to you.

Except for the threat later that ALL self described "book readers" would be banned for the violations of others. Even those who never mention the books in anyway.

I am 100% in favor of warnings or bans against specific posters who break the "no book spoilers rule."

But the position of "All Book Readers will be banned" or are no longer welcome was NEVER the official position of any of the "Show Only" threads.

If this is the official new position of the moderation team, we should know.

It's already been explained. "Logically, if you are a reader who is playing nice, the ban doesn't apply to you."

I'm sorry you can't or won't understand that.

The huge problem here is that there's no definition for "playing nice."

This moderation happened after a discussion in which no spoilers were posted. No spoilers, no foreshadowing, just a discussion of Jaime's character. Your blanket moderation runs directly counter to what you're saying here.

The vast majority of "book readers" are enjoy the show as a show and aren't spoiling anything. They should no longer be allowed to post at all about the show?

Yup, because book readers are guaranteed to fuck it up every single time.

I guess it's time to start a new thread then. "Game of Thrones Thread for people who want to talk only about the show but may have read one of the books at some point in the past and go out of their way not to spoil anything."

Also, something to add to Starbuck79's question about the official position of the moderation team...

Is the secondary material from the HBO site or the Blu Rays also off-limits? It generally overlaps with the more detailed historical fluff/explanations from the book, but it's specifically released as show material.

The vast majority of "book readers" are enjoy the show as a show and aren't spoiling anything. They should no longer be allowed to post at all about the show?

Yup, because book readers are guaranteed to fuck it up every single time.

Book readers are capable of limiting their comments to purely show content in exactly the same way alcoholics are capable of having just one drink.

Some people just cant contain themselves. I hate it. They have this urge to either spoil for fun, or because they wanna "help" the ignorant become enlightened, or maybe they just wanna participate just because. They always think they are too smart to ruin it for everyone else, and hey, saying something that will seem clever is well worth the risk of ruining it for them.

It all comes down to that bragging kind of personality, you know the type, the ones who feel a need to constantly let everyone know what they know or who they know. It gets worse on pay forums because then they really feel entitled to behave this way, all social conventions be damned, I PAID for this!

The vast majority of "book readers" are enjoy the show as a show and aren't spoiling anything. They should no longer be allowed to post at all about the show?

Yup, because book readers are guaranteed to fuck it up every single time.

Book readers are capable of limiting their comments to purely show content in exactly the same way alcoholics are capable of having just one drink.

Some people just cant contain themselves. I hate it. They have this urge to either spoil for fun, or because they wanna "help" the ignorant become enlightened, or maybe they just wanna participate just because. They always think they are too smart to ruin it for everyone else, and hey, saying something that will seem clever is well worth the risk of ruining it for them.

It all comes down to that bragging kind of personality, you know the type, the ones who feel a need to constantly let everyone know what they know or who they know. It gets worse on pay forums because then they really feel entitled to behave this way, all social conventions be damned, I PAID for this!

The problem is that while I actually agree with you. It does not apply to every book reader!

I hate the people in the thread who bring up book spoilers. As I posted, I have decided to read the books after each season. I LIKE being surprised by the show. I know that there are events that I have read about that exist only in the books that may or may not ever happen in the show. I am extremely careful to only comment about things I have actually seen in the show.

Just as annoying as the "know it all" posted you reference are above, are people who say I'm not even welcome to discuss the show because I happened to have read one of the books.

Do you even see how your attitude about it is just as insulting as the people who spoil the books?

Logically, if you are a reader who is playing nice, the ban doesn't apply to you.

Was nowhere near the original moderation, and still isn't. Put it in and I'm betting we'll stop bitching.

Take the original post:

Quote:

stay out of the thread if you can't play nice

Switch the order:

Quote:

if you can't play nice, stay out of the thread

This statement only applies to people who can't play nice. It doesn't speak at all to those who can play nice. I can't speak on behalf of the mods, but that's my reading of the original.

I noticed that on the fifth (literally) read-through. That whole moderation tag was so bristly I couldn't parse anything other that "STFU, take your ball and GTFO". If nothing else, we really shouldn't be having moderation put like that.

I understand ffifield's position, and I know it sucks to have your moderation questioned, but I think that my initial response was extremely respectful and I would love for some of the other mods to chime in so we can get an "official" position.

If "Book Readers as a group as welcome as long as they STFU about the books even existing" is the official position, I agree 100%.

I obviously wasn't the only one to have a incomplete understanding of the mod position in the tread.

The problem is that while I actually agree with you. It does not apply to every book reader!

I hate the people in the thread who bring up book spoilers. As I posted, I have decided to read the books after each season. I LIKE being surprised by the show. I know that there are events that I have read about that exist only in the books that may or may not ever happen in the show. I am extremely careful to only comment about things I have actually seen in the show.

Just as annoying as the "know it all" posted you reference are above, are people who say I'm not even welcome to discuss the show because I happened to have read one of the books.

Do you even see how your attitude about it is just as insulting as the people who spoil the books?

Book Readers =/ Book Spoilers.

No one has told you that you cannot discuss the show, even when the moderators lost their tact they still worded this way, and bolded it:

Quote:

Book readers, shut the fuck up and stay out of the thread if you can't play nice.

So dont be butthurt if it doesnt apply to you. It applies to anyone who simply cant control the urge to let the internet know that they read books and know more stuff.

Me, personally, I read the books years ago. I don't feel the need to participate in that thread, and never have, and don't understand your need to be a part of it, even if you will play nice.

I agree. I don't know what it is with the book readers but really guys, shut the fuck up. Despite how clever you think you are you're not helping. I'm getting real close to making this thread off limits to anyone who's identified themselves as having read any part of the books.

Really, what's your point? Can't abide the viewers wishes to not be spoiled or foreshadowed in any way? Or are you just assholes?

And just in case I've not made myself perfectly clear, Book readers, shut the fuck up and stay out of the thread if you can't play nice. You have your own thread. Go there. Make fun of the viewers. Discuss how fucked up their ideas are, how clueless they are, whatever.

If you decide not to heed this last warning I will ban you from posting in this thread, and if that doesn't work then we'll go to warnings and unwanted posting vacations.

Please let this thread be for non-book readers who are watching the show.

If you or anyone else wishes to discuss this moderation notice please do so outside of this thread and let the viewer-only crowd have their thread back. Plus it's in the PG not to discuss moderation in-thread.

Hey guys, I don't want to play book vs. series police. But this thread is clearly marked for discussion of events and characters are portrayed in the series to date. While the briefest of mention above of someone's preference for a character's portrayal in the series over their portrayal in the books obviously can't be considered a spoiler, I think it's appropriate to remind everyone that--for the purposes of this particular thread--the books may as well not exist. Please restrict discussion to the events and characters portrayed in the series to date. There's another thread for the combined discussion of both the book and television series.

I don't feel the need to participate in that thread, and never have, and don't understand your need to be a part of it, even if you will play nice.

Because I love the show and want to be able to discuss what happens with others here without being spoiled about the future? Is it really that hard to understand? Why does anyone post in any thread?

So being yourself spoiled by the book thread is a no-no, but risking spoiling things to others in the no-book thread is OK. The books contain a lot of stuff that didn't make it into the show, and the way the series is being played out, will constitute as spoilers, even though they may be a book behind. There are some very smart people watching the show who have some really keen deduction skills, I know a few. Any innocent comment can be a spoiler for them. It has happened. Is your participation really worth it?

If staying out of the discussion is out of the question, just please try to have the manners to make sure anything you say, any plot point you touch, no matter how insignificant will seem to you, comes from the show and only from what you saw in the show.

Hey guys, I don't want to play book vs. series police. But this thread is clearly marked for discussion of events and characters are portrayed in the series to date. While the briefest of mention above of someone's preference for a character's portrayal in the series over their portrayal in the books obviously can't be considered a spoiler, I think it's appropriate to remind everyone that--for the purposes of this particular thread--the books may as well not exist. Please restrict discussion to the events and characters portrayed in the series to date. There's another thread for the combined discussion of both the book and television series.

And I haven't seen any book-hinting discussion since page 10 or 11.

This. What is unfortunate is that it seems that the moderation in question was an overreaction to hamete's claim of book spoilers/hints/whatever that simply didn't exist. I suppose it depends on what hamete was referring to exactly.