Explorer

No I'm saying if the game presumes Multi-classing and Feats, Strength is clearly superior to Dexterity on Paladins and Barbarians (at a bare minimum).

Seriously how many Dex + Sharpshooter Barbarians or Paladins have you seen exactly? And dont try and sell me that the combo is any good'; it's awful on those classes.

When it comes to Fighters, for every Dex based Fighter with Sharpshooter (and most Dex based Fighters are Sharpshooters and thus Ranged PCs who only have rapiers largely for show, unless they're also Rogue M/Cs like Swashbuckler + Battlemasters), you'll find several Fighters with GWM and/or PAM (Strength builds) in heavy armor.

The only Dex based Fighters I've seen have been Rogue multi-classes or Sharpshooters/ Arcane Archers/ Crossbow experts. Every other Fighter (and every single Barbarian and Paladin) have been Strength based, often with GWM, PAM at a reasonable frequence (or both).

The only 'martials' that default to Dex is Rangers (who are a little MAD due to needing Wisdom for casting) with Archery being the most optimal choice for that class, and (of course) Rogues, the latter of which face a choice between 'rapier' or 'two shortwsords' (which is so iconic it doesnt bother me).

Goblin Queen

Dex characters, unlike Str characters, don’t have to dedicate themselves to being melee or ranged only, since they use the same mod to hit and do damage with both. This is more of a reason that finesse is INBA, not less.

Paladins cant smite at range, putting them into melee combat. Again V-Paladin and D-Paladin get oath abilities that grant big bonuses to hit (mitigating GWM's -5 to hit) - either advantage to hit or +Charisma to hit. Even A-Paladins get to restrain their target with their oath ability also granting a bonus to hit (and making GWM much better).

GMW isn’t that great on Paladins, for the same reason Sharpshooter isn’t that great on rogues. When you have a class feature like Sneak Attack or Smite that can do buckets of extra damage dice on a hit, -5 to hit for +10 static damage becomes a much worse trade off against opponents of a much wider range of ACs. And dual-wielding becomes a much better option as it gives you an additional opportunity to potentially apply those extra damage dice.

Yes they are. If you’re planning to fight with a weapon in 2 hands anyway, then you’re better off with a greatsword or a halberd than a longsword. If you’re not, then the option to use the same stat for melee attacks that you use for ranged attacks and AC is much better than the option to use your weapon that you didn’t plan to use in 2 hands 2 handed.

Screw that. You cant dump Strength on a Paladin or Barbarian and multi-class. Dumping Strength on a Paladin or Barbarian also rules you out of GWM and Heavy weapons which is a bad idea on those classes generally.

Just because it’s not a problem for you doesn’t mean the people for whom it is a problem are delusional. Believe it or not, different people have different experiences playing and running D&D. I promise, I won’t force you to use the fixes I come up with for problems I experience in my games. Would you kindly return the favor and not try to force me not to fix things that you don’t experience problems with?

You’re talking about the optional variant encumbrance rule. If you’re using that, dumping Strength becomes a bit less appealing of a proposition, but that fix comes at the cost of significantly more bookkeeping. If you’re using the default rules for carrying capacity, a 120 lb. limit on characters with 8 strength is pretty manageable.

Goblin Queen

You say this, and yet you also say the problem is illusory. Just because it isn’t a problem at your table, doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem at anyone else’s, and it’s pretty rude to walk into a conversation about how to address a problem many people are experiencing and say “this isn’t a real problem, you shouldn’t bother trying to fix it” just because you personally aren’t experiencing the problem.

Explorer

Dex characters, unlike Str characters, don’t have to dedicate themselves to being melee or ranged only, since they use the same mod to hit and do damage with both. This is more of a reason that finesse is INBA, not less.

But they do anyway, seeing as Paladins and Barbarians already suck at ranged combat. Every single Paladin or Barbarian I've seen packs some Strength based throwing weapons and focuses on mobility (getting toe to toe as soon as possible).

Why are we forcing MAD on Martials anyway? They already need [one of Str or Dex], and Con. And why are we forcing them to use two different Stats for combat, when Casters get away with 1 stat for melee spell attacks, ranged spell attacks AND spell DCs?

They dont miss out. Thrown melee weapons use Strength to hit and damage. Javelins and hand-axes are prefectly fine. Range isnt as good as a Bow, and the damage is 1 point less on average, but they deal more damage in melee (considerably more when class features are taken into account like Rage and Smite) and have the higher AC.

It's a trade off.

Never in my life have I seen a campaign last long enough for capstones to matter.

GMW isn’t that great on Paladins, for the same reason Sharpshooter isn’t that great on rogues. When you have a class feature like Sneak Attack or Smite that can do buckets of extra damage dice on a hit, -5 to hit for +10 static damage becomes a much worse trade off against opponents of a much wider range of ACs. And dual-wielding becomes a much better option as it gives you an additional opportunity to potentially apply those extra damage dice.

Unlike Sneak Attack, Smite is a finite resource. Seeing as you (self admittedly) play low to mid level games, Paladins have no-where near enough Smites to spam them more than a handful of times on your average median 6 encounter Adventuring day.

For every other attack, there is GWM.

The fact that you need one of two classes, multiclassing, a specific fighting style, and a specific feat to make Str more appealing than Dex is a problem.

You’re talking about the optional variant encumbrance rule. If you’re using that, dumping Strength becomes a bit less appealing of a proposition, but that fix comes at the cost of significantly more bookkeeping.

Explorer

Finesse becomes that you use DEX or STR to attack. Damage is still STR. This weakens DEX as a do-all ability score and makes finesse less of a game changer out of the gate.

So a default DEX-based rapier is inferior to a default STR-based longsword.

Then we add in a Fighting Style
Swashbuckler: You may use your DEX or STR for damage with all finesse weapons. If you are not holding a shield or non-finesse weapon, you gain +1 AC in light, medium or no armor.

The +1 AC is to bring it up the the level of the other fighting styles, though it's a bit stepping on the Protection style. Other suggestions welcome.

Rogues and Monks would get either this fighting style (which would boost their AC) or just the use DEX for damage as well, as an additional feature.

A feat would also do something similar, probably as a half-feat that also raises DEX.

(Note that if I wanted to make this level of balance, I'd probably also adjust the melee vs. ranfged damage, especially since I did just decrease DEX melee damage but not DEX ranged damage.)

If you think the rapier is too good, would you use this? What does it break? (DEX-clerics?) How can we improve it?

We already house-rule all bonus damage comes from Strength, regardless of the weapon type with the exception of loading weapons, which never receive a bonus to damage. This fixed finesse for us. We also added rules for light and heavy weapons (light weapons do half STR mod and heavy to 1.5 x STR mod, both round down). We removed two-handed and all heavy weapons are two-handed by default (most already were anyway). Ranged weapons always require two hands, regardless (for firing and loading), but thrown weapons are always one-handed.

I don't mind the new Fighting Style, but it seems a bit much like a strange combo of Dueling, Defenseive Duelist, and Dual Wielding, ya know? In a non-feat game I am sure you could write such a style that would work better IMO.

Explorer

You say this, and yet you also say the problem is illusory. Just because it isn’t a problem at your table, doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem at anyone else’s, and it’s pretty rude to walk into a conversation about how to address a problem many people are experiencing and say “this isn’t a real problem, you shouldn’t bother trying to fix it” just because you personally aren’t experiencing the problem.

Its your game and do what you want, but not only do I not see the need to do what you're suggesting, I think it's a poor choice.

Will you be imposing a similar rule forcing Spell Casters to use Int for Spell Attack rolls (spell power), Wisdom for Spell save DC's (will power) and Charisma (force of will) for Spell damage... or will they continue to use one stat for literally everything, while Martials are forced to split between Strength, Dex and Con?

Goblin Queen

Why are we forcing MAD on Martials anyway? They already need [one of Str or Dex], and Con. And why are we forcing them to use two different Stats for combat, when Casters get away with 1 stat for melee spell attacks, ranged spell attacks AND spell DCs?

Casters get exactly as much benefit out of Con as martials do, so it seems a little misleading to say martials need two stats and casters only need one. Also, casters can’t boost their AC with the same stat they use for spell attacks/DCs, and only Warlocks can add any stat at all to their spell damage. The point isn’t to make anyone MAD, the point is to not have one stat that does everything another stat does and more.

Indeed, Str builds have Dex builds beat by about 1AC if the Dex character keeps up with their Dex ASIs, or more if they don’t. But this comes at the cost of significantly more gold, more weight carried, -5 or 6 Initiative, and -5 or 6 and Disadvantage on Stealth checks. I’ll take the slightly lower AC over the significantly lower Initiative and Stealth any day of the week.

They dont miss out. Thrown melee weapons use Strength to hit and damage. Javelins and hand-axes are prefectly fine. Range isnt as good as a Bow, and the damage is 1 point less on average, but they deal more damage in melee (considerably more when class features are taken into account like Rage and Smite) and have the higher AC.

Unlike Sneak Attack, Smite is a finite resource. Seeing as you (self admittedly) play low to mid level games, Paladins have no-where near enough Smites to spam them more than a handful of times on your average median 6 encounter Adventuring day.

Indeed, smite spam generally leaves paladins pretty boned. It’s generally better to conserve your spell slots for a bigger threat. Meanwhile, sure, you could use GWM if you built for Str. Or Sharpshooter if you built for Dex. Or just, like, hit stuff normally, and you’ll still do just fine.

Its importance depends entirely on your priorities. If you consider it a priority to simulate the difficulty of carrying lots of stuff, sure, that’s important. Personally, that’s not really my main focus when I play or run D&D.

Will you be imposing a similar rule forcing Spell Casters to use Int for Spell Attack rolls (spell power), Wisdom for Spell save DC's (will power) and Charisma (force of will) for Spell damage... or will they continue to use one stat for literally everything, while Martials are forced to split between Strength, Dex and Con?

Explorer

Will you be imposing a similar rule forcing Spell Casters to use Int for Spell Attack rolls (spell power), Wisdom for Spell save DC's (will power) and Charisma (force of will) for Spell damage... or will they continue to use one stat for literally everything, while Martials are forced to split between Strength, Dex and Con?

This is the big thing right here. While I'd say almost everyone chooses Con as their 2nd or 3rd highest stat, and I think rebalancing Con would be a better discussion, I don't feel like the rapier unbalances everything that much.

If you really need to, then say finesse can't use shields. 3E had that rule. It just means melee Dex fighters will have less choice and will go into TWFing only instead of sword/shield.

Goblin Queen

This is the big thing right here. While I'd say almost everyone chooses Con as their 2nd or 3rd highest stat, and I think rebalancing Con would be a better discussion, I don't feel like the rapier unbalances everything that much.

If you really need to, then say finesse can't use shields. 3E had that rule. It just means melee Dex fighters will have less choice and will go into TWFing only instead of sword/shield.

Hero

Not enough time at present to read through the thread, so my apologies if I am repeating anything others have already said.

We already house-rule all bonus damage comes from Strength, regardless of the weapon type with the exception of loading weapons, which never receive a bonus to damage. This fixed finesse for us. We also added rules for light and heavy weapons (light weapons do half STR mod and heavy to 1.5 x STR mod, both round down). We removed two-handed and all heavy weapons are two-handed by default (most already were anyway). Ranged weapons always require two hands, regardless (for firing and loading), but thrown weapons are always one-handed.

I don't mind the new Fighting Style, but it seems a bit much like a strange combo of Dueling, Defenseive Duelist, and Dual Wielding, ya know? In a non-feat game I am sure you could write such a style that would work better IMO.

Isn't that more an issue with how consistently Rogues can nova with Sneak Attack? They's only be doing an average of 1 less DPR if they were going ranged with shortbow and the exact same DPR as the rapier with the light crossbow.

The Paladin also has roughly 6 x smites and/or smite spells, 3 x divine channels (including either +Cha to hit and damage or advantage to hit), and damage buffs from +1d4 radiant to every hit, or Hunters mark from V-Pal.

Paladin AC should be 18. Rogue AC should be 16.

No feats here, but if allowed, there is better feat support for the Greatsword (GWM's power attack and cleave) than the Rapier. Again, I'm not sure the perception fits the reality.

I dont know. I use feats and MCing, and I see a lot of Strength builds. Literally every single Cleric, Paladin, Barbarian and most Fighters (those that arent built specifically as archers) use Strength.

The only 'Dex to melee' guys I've seen in literally dozens of campaigns over 5 years have been every single Monk, and a Swashbuckler/ Battlemaster with TWF and Rogues.

Every Ranger barring 1 I have seen has been ranged, and the 1 ranger that was melee was a Tortle TWF Strength guy.

The smart rogue uses dual shortswords in melee rather than a rapier unless they're going Arcane Trickster and need the off-hand for spellcasting components. That's 5d6+4 damage, for around 21.5 damage per round - still not as much as the paladin can dish out, but it's pretty close. The paladin also loses half that damage (for around 12.5) if he misses one attack, whereas the rogue only loses 1d6 (for around 18 damage). Heck, if the rouge lands the first hit, they can spend their bonus action on one of their Cunning Action options instead of blowing it on a chance at a few extra points of damage. Even assuming the paladin does land both hits and the rogue lands the first one and Disengages or something, that's a tradeoff of 7 DPR, 2 AC, and -4-5 athletics for 1,455 gold, +4-5 Initiative, +4-5 stealth and no disadvantage, +4-5 acrobatics, +4-5 sleight of hand, +4-5 thieves's tools all before proficiency/expertise. I'd say the paladin's getting the raw end of the deal here.

The Paladin also has roughly 6 x smites and/or smite spells, 3 x divine channels (including either +Cha to hit and damage or advantage to hit), and damage buffs from +1d4 radiant to every hit, or Hunters mark from V-Pal.

If we're adding in Feats, the rogue can take Dual Wielder and get two rapiers instead of two shortswords and close the AC gap, or Crossbow Expert and use a hand crossbow, allowing them to transition seamlessly between melee and ranged.

I dont know. I use feats and MCing, and I see a lot of Strength builds. Literally every single Cleric, Paladin, Barbarian and most Fighters (those that arent built specifically as archers) use Strength.

And I allow both feats and MCing and I see a lot more Dex builds than Strength. Every single rogue, monk, ranger, most fighters and paladins (those that aren't built specifically as great weapon masters), every bladelock, every bladesinger wizard, and even some clerics and barbarians use Dexterity.

I've always felt like it should take more time to be switching from melee to a ranged projectile weapon vs. switching from melee to a thrown weapon. A bow user could draw a weapon and hold their bow in their off-hand, but then they don't get the benefit of a shield (anyone else have groups that sundered bows as a typical strategy in 3E?). The rules kind of don't differentiate item manipulation but that is another point to consider.

The Paladin also has roughly 6 x smites and/or smite spells, 3 x divine channels (including either +Cha to hit and damage or advantage to hit), and damage buffs from +1d4 radiant to every hit, or Hunters mark from V-Pal.