JHern wrote:IMVHO, manufacturers themselves tweak a lot of production discs after they get the prototypes approved, making versions of discs that would not pass PDGA standards and rules if submitted by themselves. Why isn't there such a moral outrage against that, as there is for the po-folk pouring hot water on their plastic?

This vegan has forgotten more about herring than 99.9% of this board's users will ever know, having dipped, cleaned, salt preserved, cooked, & served (and eaten for breakfast with spoonbread, fried 'taters & onions, and sliced tomatoes, back in the day) literally thousands of pounds out of the glorious Rappahannock River in my time.

Ryen91 wrote:I am pretty sure I am more intelligent then you think and have allot more knowledge then your post might suggest.

archimedesjs wrote:Honestly, it's such a stupid rule…Enough with the self-righteousness, start hammering on rules that are actually applicable to fair play.

Methinks the self-righteous act is unilaterally deciding which rules are sufficiently "non-stupid" and "applicable to fair play" to deem worthy of self-enforcement.

I do believe the rule is stupid, but I back that up with logical reasoning. As far as self-righteousness is concerned, you pretty much drenched the entire thread in it from your bleeding heart:"I understand that honor - and good character in general - is increasingly absent in our society and becomes even more absent with each successive generation of spoiled brats, but those same brats will be in for quite a surprise when a non-spineless pDGA leadership finally comes into power, sees the woeful state of character & honor in both society in general and tournament disc golfers in particular, and decides to take action: mandating a non-playing official to accompany each card & raising fees x-fold to allow for such a mandate. That will be the end of honor in the game, the end of my & many other right-thinking folks' competitive participation in it, the end of the "Golden Age of Disc Golf" (if that hasn't already happened), and one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of competitive disc golf itself"

Putting the rule aside for a moment, look at this like a logical human being. Disc molds come from the manufacturers with all different flight characteristics for discs of the same mold. I had mentioned the Innova Champion Groove as a prime example of this. I have thrown 2 BRAND NEW Grooves, and they both had ridiculously different flight paths. One was a meat hook, and the other flew as understable as a beat in DX Cobra. Same with Katana's. I have a Star Katana I STILL can't flip, and I've been throwing it for over 6 months, and I've thrown a new one that turned over immediately and hit the ground. Even my beloved Wizards have had some drastic dissimiliarities with their out of the box flight paths. What is the difference between allowing your disc to get beat in from hitting trees, concrete, asphalt, earth, etc. and making the adjustment yourself?

What if my disc is run over by a car, by accident, and I choose to still play with it? It went from a dome top to a flat top. I didn't alter the disc myself, it was a result of natural wear and tear. I would not be breaking any rules, unless the car wrote on my disc with an ink that had "thickness", or if it cracked or creased it. The rule then becomes a matter of intent, which is ridiculous. That means that if I'm intentionally playing with a disc that I want to break in faster on a heavily wooded course, I'm breaking the rule. I'm intentionally throwing it on that course because of the high probability of hitting a tree with it, and having the disc be modified so as to fly more understable. Sure, it's "natural wear and tear", but I'm doing it intentionally for the explicit purpose of modifying the disc's flight path. Any rule that leaves this much room to interpretation, should be worded differently or completely removed.

ROFLMFAO!! Doesn't look like you even have a clue what this exceedingly commonly-used phrase even means, son. Unless, of course, I've laughed so hard at your idiocy that I've teleported into Bizarro World…

Stop with the bogus contrived justifications, cheaty-boy, and just come out & say what you really mean: "I wanna, I wanna, I wanna modify my new discs & nothing you big doodoo head rules say can stop me. Nyah, nyah, nyah!"

Ryen91 wrote:I am pretty sure I am more intelligent then you think and have allot more knowledge then your post might suggest.

Apparently sarcasm is lost on you, not surprising that you misinterpreted my usage of the phrase considering how highly you think of yourself. Also, I'm not justifying cheating you brocolli loving Nancy, I'm clarifying how the rule is too subjective to be relevant. I do NOT alter any of my discs, I have no need to.

I have articulated exactly what I intended to say, there's no hinting or beating around the bush with me. I'm quite direct, and have no need to hide or cower behind subtlety. My point is that with somebody who is some adamant about integrity and character, why not show a little and recognise that the rule is left wanting.

ROFLMFAO!! Doesn't look like you even have a clue what this exceedingly commonly-used phrase even means, son. Unless, of course, I've laughed so hard at your idiocy that I've teleported into Bizarro World…

Stop with the bogus contrived justifications, cheaty-boy, and just come out & say what you really mean: "I wanna, I wanna, I wanna modify my new discs & nothing you big doodoo head rules say can stop me. Nyah, nyah, nyah!"

archimedesjs wrote:Apparently sarcasm is lost on you…you brocolli loving Nancy

The lack of a tone generator on the series of tubes does provide the convenient safety valve of claiming sarcasm when one is caught making a patently idiotic statement. Kudos to you, archie, for finding the handle & opening it up. Also pretty artful with the obligatory, tired vegetarian "joke"; did you make it up yourself or write it down from your favorite episode of "Tosh.0", just waiting for an opportunity to spring that gem? Either way, not only brutally effective argumentative device, but also comedy gold!

archimedesjs wrote:…recognise that the rule is left wanting.

I never commented about whether I thought the rule was good, bad, or indifferent, as that opinion is not germane to the question at hand. My point, obviously, was to analyze the OP's question, acknowledge that a rule is in existence prohibiting his hypothetical course of action, define it per the published tome, and lament, shame, & ridicule the wretches that decide that it is A-OK to break it (or contrive an "interpretation" contrary to the plain English wording of the simple rule in an attempt to justify their transgressions and/or desire to transgress) just because they think it is wanting.

Ryen91 wrote:I am pretty sure I am more intelligent then you think and have allot more knowledge then your post might suggest.

Frank Delicious wrote:I've had discs run over by cars and they are never permanently flattened; they are usually just horrible scuffed up or destroyed.

I had a domey 150g StarTeebird that was run over by a work van, and it is now MOSTLY a flat top, with only a slight bulge around the inside part of the rim on top. I've also had a star leopard run over by a car, and all that resulted was a nasty scuff on top, but the mold and flight pattern both remained unchanged.

Does anyone else find it ironic that there are people claiming to be morally superior because they are willing to call people on rules based on their interpretation rather than the clear intent of the rule just to gain an advantage? It's clear from other threads that changing the shape of a disc to match another disc of the exact same mold is not considered cheating by the people who wrote the rules. The only reason to call someone on it is becasue you're looking to gain an advantage by purposefully misinterpreting the rules. All the talk about morals is just bully tactics becasue the logic behind their argument is so bad.

I like that vegan ray said in a different thread that whenever people ask him if they are outside the circle, he always says yes even if they aren't. he thinks he gains an advantage if they jump putt, because he believes jump putting doesn't do anything besides make them less accurate (I think, from some posts I've seen that seems to be the case, but I could be wrong on that account). Isn't that purposely misinterpreting the rules for your advantage just like flattening a disc would be?

I'm sure he will come back to this post with some eloquent bullshit spin that he will get off to (and make me look stupid), but I could give a shit.

veganray wrote:ALWAYS say yes to this question, even if the thrower is only 3m from the basket. A savvy competitor always wants to encourage his opponents to do foolish things that will increase their scores, like jump putting.

veganray wrote:I assume you mean, "It's not illegal if you don't get caught." And you're wrong; it is illegal.

The the rules of disc golf demand self-enforcement and honor. The prevailing attitude of trying to get away with whatever you can unless other competitors catch one red-handed not only makes a mockery of the honorable privilege bestowed upon each player by the self-enforcing aspect of the rules, but threatens the entire existence of the game as we know it. I understand that honor - and good character in general - is increasingly absent in our society and becomes even more absent with each successive generation of spoiled brats, but those same brats will be in for quite a surprise when a non-spineless pDGA leadership finally comes into power, sees the woeful state of character & honor in both society in general and tournament disc golfers in particular, and decides to take action: mandating a non-playing official to accompany each card & raising fees x-fold to allow for such a mandate. That will be the end of honor in the game, the end of my & many other right-thinking folks' competitive participation in it, the end of the "Golden Age of Disc Golf" (if that hasn't already happened), and one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of competitive disc golf itself.

So, those of exceedingly weak character such as Hyzerline49 & jhern, enjoy putting one over on the competition by dishonorably skirting every rule that you don't believe you will be caught breaking - modify those discs, mark over that "182" written on the back of your Roc, kick that mini from behind a tree when nobody's looking, and slide that disc that is 1" OB just a mere 2" (nobody'll ever know) - but know that not only are you making an ass of yourself & screwing every other player in your division but also are you ushering in the ruination of the game you supposedly love.

Though my "10m" post was intended to be in jest & to ridicule the absurd practice of jump putting, you are correct. I will be signing autographs at Hypocricon 2011, Sunday, December 25 at Our Lady of Victories Catholic Church, in Boston, Massachusetts; don't miss it! Good stalking; keep up the good work, son.

I will leave it to you to make yourself look stupid, and recent history gives me absolute confidence that you will not disappoint.

Last edited by veganray on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ryen91 wrote:I am pretty sure I am more intelligent then you think and have allot more knowledge then your post might suggest.

garublador wrote:Does anyone else find it ironic that there are people claiming to be morally superior because they are willing to call people on rules based on their interpretation rather than the clear intent of the rule just to gain an advantage?

What in the following words makes it clear that the intent is to allow filling up a disc with hot water to intentionally flatten it?

Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics.

The true irony is that there are folks willing, even eager, to define the "clear intent" of a rule that is in direct opposition to the simple, unambiguous, plain English wording of the rule in the pDGA's official publication of the laws of the game (and also, I'm sure coincidentally, that allows for a shady action that they have taken or want to take).

Ryen91 wrote:I am pretty sure I am more intelligent then you think and have allot more knowledge then your post might suggest.

veganray wrote:Though my "10m" post was intended to be in jest & to ridicule the absurd practice of jump putting, you are correct. I will be signing autographs at Hypocricon 2011, Sunday, December 25 at Our Lady of Victories Catholic Church, in Boston Massachusetts; don't miss it! Good stalking; keep up the good work, son.

I will leave it to you to make yourself look stupid, and recent history gives me absolute confidence that you will not disappoint.

garublador wrote: It's clear from other threads that changing the shape of a disc to match another disc of the exact same mold is not considered cheating by the people who wrote the rules.

If it was clear, I would expect it to be in the rules.

As it stands the anecdotal "evidence" that someone saw on a forum or heard from someone whos mothers coworkers adoptive kids biological father who had it in an email from someone at the PDGA is kinda worthless when you are out in the field with the rule book and players/TDs that may have no such information or even worse; Conflicting stories.

The reaction, as in the case of jump putting and the likes, should be to be _sure_ that one is within the rules, and not enter into a game and discussion on how far wide the interpretation of said anecdotal evidence should be. Until a clear, universal and most importantly, official message/ruling is given on the matter from PDGA.