If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Radeon Evergreen HDMI Audio Code Is Still M.I.A.

12-03-2011, 01:40 PM

Phoronix: Radeon Evergreen HDMI Audio Code Is Still M.I.A.

For those that haven't noticed, the open-source Radeon Linux graphics driver still lacks HDMI audio support for the Radeon HD 5000 "Evergreen" series and newer graphics processors. This has been sought after for many months, but even with the Linux 3.2 kernel, AMD still doesn't have to go-ahead with the open-source audio support...

The legal reviews would probably be a lot less painful if the only thing to avoid would be giving out hardware-specific information about AMD proprietary IP. As it stands, DRM and IP and patents owned by other companies are littered all throughout AMD's ASICs. So it's like a legal minefield, and AMD's lawyers have to navigate through it.

I wish a company could make a competitive 3d chipset that isn't patent-encumbered; doesn't contain IP licensed from other companies; and contains no DRM. And on top of that the company is open-source friendly. They would probably release enough information to make a fully functional driver for all components of the hardware in these circumstances, and just hide enough information so their competitors couldn't (easily) use information in the driver to create better hardware that outpaces the company that released the driver (as that would be counterproductive).

And yes, that does mean I'd be willing to live without hardware video encoding/decoding by the chipset, in particular all the MPEG crap standards. I do want WebM and Theora in hardware, but the CPU in my box is plenty powerful for decoding 1080p in virtually any format, proprietary or no. I just don't see what value video encoding/decoding brings, when you can easily do so in hardware using shaders, or entirely in software (and in both those cases, people who do want to use proprietary codecs can purchase legally licensed software implementations of them, or hardware-based implementations that run as a shader, which is still software).

I also think that said company should refuse to implement any display/audio standards that require DRM, and refuse to implement the DRM component if it's optional. This will send a strong message to the media cartels that their encumbered technology is not wanted.

Since AMD is the underdog (they only control ~27% of the desktop graphics market from the recent Steam hardware survey, and even less of the CPU market), you'd think they'd be the company to take on this kind of liberal strategy, to differentiate themselves from Big Green and Big Blue who tend to out-pace them at every turn, both in terms of sales and top-end performance. But AMD only has one foot in the freedom pool; the other foot is standing on proprietary quicksand, which is quickly pulling the entire company down.

Comment

The legal reviews would probably be a lot less painful if the only thing to avoid would be giving out hardware-specific information about AMD proprietary IP. As it stands, DRM and IP and patents owned by other companies are littered all throughout AMD's ASICs. So it's like a legal minefield, and AMD's lawyers have to navigate through it.

I wish a company could make a competitive 3d chipset that isn't patent-encumbered; doesn't contain IP licensed from other companies; and contains no DRM. And on top of that the company is open-source friendly. They would probably release enough information to make a fully functional driver for all components of the hardware in these circumstances, and just hide enough information so their competitors couldn't (easily) use information in the driver to create better hardware that outpaces the company that released the driver (as that would be counterproductive).

And yes, that does mean I'd be willing to live without hardware video encoding/decoding by the chipset, in particular all the MPEG crap standards. I do want WebM and Theora in hardware, but the CPU in my box is plenty powerful for decoding 1080p in virtually any format, proprietary or no. I just don't see what value video encoding/decoding brings, when you can easily do so in hardware using shaders, or entirely in software (and in both those cases, people who do want to use proprietary codecs can purchase legally licensed software implementations of them, or hardware-based implementations that run as a shader, which is still software).

I also think that said company should refuse to implement any display/audio standards that require DRM, and refuse to implement the DRM component if it's optional. This will send a strong message to the media cartels that their encumbered technology is not wanted.

Since AMD is the underdog (they only control ~27% of the desktop graphics market from the recent Steam hardware survey, and even less of the CPU market), you'd think they'd be the company to take on this kind of liberal strategy, to differentiate themselves from Big Green and Big Blue who tend to out-pace them at every turn, both in terms of sales and top-end performance. But AMD only has one foot in the freedom pool; the other foot is standing on proprietary quicksand, which is quickly pulling the entire company down.

yes true and I'm really sure they losing money on the Linux market.
I am a person willing to spend a lot of money on hardware but if a HD4770 works with opensource driver's and the HD6970 is useless in practice because no sound, then who is so stupid and give out money for ne new card?
The only upgrade option is to buy a used hd4870 on ebay.

Comment

The real problem with AMD, and specifically PR people like Bridgman is they want to have their cake and eat it to when it comes to denying responsibility for their share of problems like this.

Willfully sign a contract with Microsoft, Apple, and Hollywood to shut out operating systems that respect the user.

Act like it is not their fault that the habitually unnamed "meanies" that we all know are Microsoft, Apple, and Hollywood "won't let AMD" document their own cards. They tied their own hands and want to frame the situation as being simply "our hands are tied".

Comment

Willfully sign a contract with Microsoft, Apple, and Hollywood to shut out operating systems that respect the user.

Umm.. AMD doesn't write the laws and AMD doesn't have a choice over what Microsoft and the rest of the DRM media cabal choose to implement.

They want to make money selling hardware. In order to do that they need to have the ability to play back things like Blueray disks and DVDs. In order to do that they must conform to DRM laws like the DMCA. They need to license patented hardware and software and they need to conform to the licensing contracts and patent laws.

If they don't then they get fined and get injunctions against their products. They might as well close their corporation and fire everybody _right_now_ if they want to follow your advice.

If it wasn't for DMCA then companies like AMD and others would be happy selling hardware that disregard rules surrounding DRM. But they can't. It's not their choice.

I know this is just because you have very little or no experience dealing with the real world or realities created by a corrupt governmental system, but...

When I see people talking like this (basically taking huge unjustified shits on their keyboards) when AMD is obviously putting a good faith effort into being as open as possible I can't help thinking that people talking like this are hypocritical, self-righteous, little ignoramuses with a unjustified inflated sense of entitlement. HOWEVER, I am willing to give you benefit of the doubt and just assume that you don't understand how the world works.

Just, whatever you do, don't give your money to Nvidia, which is one of the most Pro-Software Patents, Pro-IP, Pro-DRM, Pro-proprietary hardware companies on the planet. It is hard to get worse then Nvidia. You are just helping to justify to the industry that they don't have to give a flying fuck about openness or supporting Linux properly in order to get your cash. You are just justifying to AMD lawyers and everybody else that puts up a roadblock that what the AMD open source folks are doing is entirely unimportant.

Comment

The real problem with AMD, and specifically PR people like Bridgman is they want to have their cake and eat it to when it comes to denying responsibility for their share of problems like this.

Willfully sign a contract with Microsoft, Apple, and Hollywood to shut out operating systems that respect the user.

Act like it is not their fault that the habitually unnamed "meanies" that we all know are Microsoft, Apple, and Hollywood "won't let AMD" document their own cards. They tied their own hands and want to frame the situation as being simply "our hands are tied".

bridgman is more support than PR.

they claim a low market share for linux and they claim they can not make a lot of money on linux hardware to support it "premium"

but its a Self-fulfilling prophecy.

for Linux the radeon driver is the happy-go-lucky driver and every-time i install the catalyst i run into problems and trouble.

last time i used the catalyst i break my system. hell even the git unstable ppa radeon driver beat the catalyst in robustness.

Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

Comment

Don't blame Bridgman or the open source team in general. They are such a small voice within the AMD organization that they are not really involved in the decision-making process around the hardware, IP, feature set, etc. Maybe the Catalyst driver team is involved in that somewhat, but most of the feature decisions are going to happen at a very high level in the hardware engineering department.

AMD may not be as big as Intel, but they have corporate bureaucracy, and their company is large enough that you have differences of opinion and conflicting interests within the company. You see this at Microsoft, too, where the execs allow the interoperability and open source divisions of the company to continue their efforts, and they let the likes of Skype continue to release Linux clients. There is too much politics involved (and probably some very big customers pulling strings) to get this kind of concession out of Microsoft. I feel that the same thing is happening with AMD and their open source effort.

Comment

Personally, I don't care what AMD does to drag their feet over official HDMI audio support. The reverse engineered support works well enough for me. Though it is a shame that some people boot up with blank screens while AMD's "open source" people claim they need to go to the magical land of AMD lawyers and ask the Imaginary Property fairy for permission on documenting how it's supposed to work.

At least the people who reverse engineered it gave us something without having to put us on hold for 3 years over their alliances with criminal organizations.