I couldn't guarantee about the "hire and fire" aspect but, I do know that the leadership doesn't stick up for their people....it's all about keeping the client happy. If the client doesn't feel good today, you are gone! The company won't move an inch on your behalf. That's why I have come to the conclusion that if the company can "lay youy off", why can't you lay the company off. Either way, you'd be gone....try to work it on your terms.

Typical contractor - they are all hire and fire. Only way to work securely within the contractor world is to be able to *get* contracts. People that merely work the contracts rather then acquire them are a dime a doz.

Fred said: Typical contractor - they are all hire and fire. Only way to work securely within the contractor world is to be able to *get* contracts. People that merely work the contracts rather then acquire them are a dime a doz.

This is a very interesting discussion to me because actually LM doesn't lay off often. Yes, contracts end, but for "white collar" employees at least, there are always new contracts to which you move.

LM is an incredibly robust company. Everyone I work with has been at the company for 20-30+ years. It's a huge company so I can't speak for all locations, but my experience has been that people have had very stable, lucrative careers. LM is often ranked as a top corporate employer. In 2006 it was ranked #2 behind Disney for college grads. In 2005 it was ranked #1.

Bob said: I couldn't guarantee about the "hire and fire" aspect but, I do know that the leadership doesn't stick up for their people....it's all about keeping the client happy. If the client doesn't feel good today, you are gone! The company won't move an inch on your behalf. That's why I have come to the conclusion that if the company can "lay youy off", why can't you lay the company off. Either way, you'd be gone....try to work it on your terms.

I did just that! Although the client was very happy with my work, I was very unhappy with the lack of leadership and the negative working environment, although most employees felt that they had to put on a happy face for management. At least at the Lockheed Martin facility in Fairmont/Clarksburg, WV, LM management is discovering that the client may not be happy with their performance--they are losing every big contract.

However, my experience with Lockheed has been very rewarding. Every other person I run into at Lockheed have careers that span 20-40 years.

Lockheed gets tons of contracts, and they are not going away anytime soon. All this gloom and doom around these forums appears to be from people unhappy they aren't able to work for such a high profile company.

As far as the comment about college recruits, I, and several of my friends, were extremely happy with the complete job offer package. They are more than fair and offer amazing, amazing, benefits.

In my experience Lockheed does not discriminate on age. If you can't get hired, build up your skill set because whoever else they are hiring is just a better candidate. Accept it.

In the Phoenix metro area, Lockheed at one time was Honeywell's main outsourcing firm for documentation. I remember a Lockheed representative discussing how they planned on hiring 30 technical writers to do the work. Unfortunately for Lockheed, when Honeywell decided to globalize the work, Lockheed could not react quickly enough and eventually they lost the business completely.

As Honeywell started to take business away, Lockheed compensated in interesting ways that were not necessarily good for the existing employees, including having some only come in every other week, because they could not afford to pay them on a more frequent basis. Also, there were stories about Lockheed offering jobs to people, and when these people accepted and came to work for the first time, they were told they no longer had jobs. Eventually, Lockheed turned over all their remaining Honeywell documentation business to another company and shut down the facility where the work was done. It was difficult for the remaining employees, because if they were chosen to work for the company who took over, they lost their seniority and vacation time and their benefits were downgraded significantly.

I applied but was unsuccessful in getting a job at the Lockheed location I have described. I interviewed and when I followed up, I was even told at one point that offer letters were in the mail, but nothing ever came of it. While I was applying, I talked to one of the employees there, and he ascribed the difficulty in getting employment there to an HR person who was a "drop the ball" kind of individual. This situation may not reflect how the company is run elsewhere, but I do think I would be cautious prior to accepting an offer from Lockheed in the future if one should ever arise.

Well, ask the 150+ or so white collar workers who were laid off at Lockheed Missile and Fire Control two weeks ago. Some had 8+ years with the company and were not dead weight. I worked as a contractor there till a month ago and moved on to greener pastures. (yeah, I committed the mortal contractor sin and broke my contract with them). While there I was grossly let down by the lack of intelligence and talent working there. It was a company of yes men/woman and those who thought out of the box built in the 1970s were chastised. The layoffs were common knowledge about 4 months out. During the months leading to this layoff they sent out offer letters and then rescinded them before the individual's start date.

Lockheed is a dying contractor. They are struggling to get new contracts and have entered into a profitable production phase, but this will only last so long. White collar workers should look elsewhere.

I worked for LM for 9 years as an electrical engineer and got laid off. I had outstanding and excellent performance reviews for each year I worked. LM is most certainly a hire and fire company. When contracts come to an end, it is left up to the employee to find another contract to go to. The management there doesn't care unless another contract automatically wants to pick you up. This means another manager wanted you specifically.

Plus I wouldn't recommend anyone going to work for a defense contractor. It is a negative work environment and a lot of emotional pressure.

Also, the business of making weapons to kill people is not a business I want to work for. You never know who will use your weapons and for what reasons.

Speak the Truth in Pasadena, Maryland said: this is so true..

May 2007, in my case the customer was happy, but LM created a reason to be unhappy. So, I'm looking of a job now/

JerseyYo in Burlington, New Jersey said: As any company may, Lockheed may layoff unprofitable units.

However, my experience with Lockheed has been very rewarding. Every other person I run into at Lockheed have careers that span 20-40 years.

Lockheed gets tons of contracts, and they are not going away anytime soon. All this gloom and doom around these forums appears to be from people unhappy they aren't able to work for such a high profile company.

As far as the comment about college recruits, I, and several of my friends, were extremely happy with the complete job offer package. They are more than fair and offer amazing, amazing, benefits.

In my experience Lockheed does not discriminate on age. If you can't get hired, build up your skill set because whoever else they are hiring is just a better candidate. Accept it.

I am seriously considering apply for a position as an aircraft technician of some sort at LM. I am currently in the Military and have alot of experience in avionics. I am working on a degree at Embry Riddle. Can anyone offer me any guidance. Should I apply or go elsewhere? If I do apply where do I start? Any input would be greatly appreciated! So let me know what I should do.

I have a top clearance and love my work with my client. Lockheed gets in the way of doing anything substantial. Business Development is a joke and when you bring them solid leads because you work with the customer and therefore have customer intimacy, they run off to play golf. It is the "We build it and they will come" mentality."

Lockheed does not promote from within unless you are a minority or member of a special interest group. They make a lot of promises and then do not deliver asking you to justify a promotion when it was promised all along. Turnover amongst the staff who hold top security clearances is very high. It is higher than the industry in general. Raises are paltry compared to other companies and management has NO IDEA what we, as staff, do on project. They then base our reviews on pure conjecture.

Lockheed likes to tout its' "Full Spectrum Leadership," "Ethics" and "Inclusion" policies, but it's really just a joke to get more out of the government. That is, it is not for the benefit of the staff. In these cases, words speak and not actions.

Bud in Durham, North Carolina said: Yes... they are willing to get college recruits because they know college recruits will work for paltry wages. If you are experienced and older, they don't want you.

They are hiring lots of college grads because the average age of their workforce in engineering is almost 50 years old. Gotta have someone to run the place when all the boomers retire no?

The good old boys in Ft. Worth Aero have no clue what happens in the east coast. The clearance level is far different and the management chain is different. Yes, the workforce is aging, but the company does little, if anything monetary, to keep younger (than age 50) workers. On the east coast, we have to live with the good old girls network - something that will not happen in Ft. Worth for many years to come. It's almost reverse discrimination in my and others' humble opinions.

I like to hire many recent graduates and interns and subsequently coach and mentor them. Odds are once they get a clearance, another company will hire them for 25% - 40% more. It's not uncommon for an early 20-something to earn $110K - 120K at another company after receiving a clearance while working for Lockheed. Lockheed will rarely match offers, but will hire back a few years later. Lockheed will match offers if a contract award fee is in jeopardy because a key person is quitting.

So....keeping people around when the boomers retire is far more difficult than you would think. The solution: pay more and make the ethics and inclusion policies real and not just lip-service.

The fact is that Lockheed is looking to bring over 400 top clearance people back. Many left the company for far higher salaries. What happens to the rest of the employees who did not jump ship? NOTHING! Bottom line is that it is easier to leave the company than return a few years later for a 40% salary increase.

cost plus jockey in Longmont, Colorado said: The most valuable employees are those who know how to work the system and get more money from the gov't.

Wrong!

The original statement by Fred in Lakewood, Washington was: (the) only way to work securely within the contractor world is to be able to *get* contracts.

I worked at Lockheeds Palo Alto facility for 12 years when it was a full Research & Development unit of the company (before the merger with Martin Marrietta). The valuable employees there were the PHDs who brought in work in the form of research satellite contracts which where than designed, analyzed, assembled, and tested in the PA labs and offices. These scientists and principle investigators working with universities and governments kept me employed.

I think that is what Fred was implying.

The really big military contracts are won by a combination of capability, past performance, innovation, and no doubt some politics. Hence, the entrenched management with DC and/or former military or NASA connections plays a required and beneficial role in maintaining jobs.

Heard anything about any new layoffs occuring? I have heard rumors of layoffs Lockheed's facilities in Troy, Alabama; Orlando, FL; and Dallas, Texas. Also read about the F-35 and Lockheeds position on less testing and cutting back-and cutting back means letting go of people. Any idea who this would affect or how many?

I am unfamiliar with those facilities. If it is true, just look at it as the process of culling the herd. It happens periodically when upper management realizes they can save hundreds of millions of dollars in labor expense while at the same time getting hundreds of thousands of free labor hours from those remaining as they scramble to keep their threatened jobs.

Call it survival of the fittest.

The risk is that a group may lose some good ones in the process, those that don't want to play that game again, but for the most part it is a manager's opportunity to vacate an area of the dead wood. It's a healthy business practice.

The bottom line is that for now the governmentcontracts are still there and they still need to be completed and LM doesn't want to miss schedule because if they do their payment for reaching a production or integration & test milestone is delayed.

In the larger scheme of things, we should not dismiss the pending political situation as not influencing the situation. There is a big question mark about who is going to be running Washington D.C. in 2008. Businesses, and especially defense contractors, are weary about cutbacks in government spending. These personnel draw-downs maybe the first steps toward preparing for slower times. In the past, the usual adjustment in such an environment is to extend the contract due dates in order to spread the work out over a longer period until new work is allocated by Congress.

When defense spending is reduced, I look for research, scientific, or commercial space to fill in the job market. So don't run off and sell your LM stock short. Lockheed Martin has proved in the past to be very agile in picking up the political wind.

As I previously said, for now there is a lot of existing work that needs to get done.

Get in and work long enough to pay off your student loans. Get out and never look back. This is not a place to stay long term. No health benefits, no retirement benefit. The company is run by fascist cretins who despise their workers, especially if they are over 40 yrs old. It sounds unbelievable, but so did the gassing of the Jews in Poland.

Scared to death to work there in Dallas, Texas said: Get in and work long enough to pay off your student loans. Get out and never look back. This is not a place to stay long term. No health benefits, no retirement benefit. The company is run by fascist cretins who despise their workers, especially if they are over 40 yrs old. It sounds unbelievable, but so did the gassing of the Jews in Poland.

You are going to sit there and equate the CEO of Lockheed Martin to Hitler and the gassing of the jews....you are a piece of work.

Is this what LM pays you for?. PR, damage control? Trying to maintain your year end bonus or stock option, all of the above?

Your elitist HR fascade isn't fooling anybody here. It looks like your employees have already figured out whats going on inside LockMart. Your comment about needing to replace your 50something workforce tells me all I need to know about LM. I'd like to have a job when I'm fifty too someday without some pencilneck with a calculator trying to put me out to pasture because I am a blip on some HR guys demographics spreadsheet. Glad I'm not working there.

If you are worth keeping, if you are a valued employee, if you work hard and get your work done, and if your attitude did not rub your manager or supervisor in the wrong way, then they will keep you. Age has no bearing on whether someone is let go.

Managers and supervisors are loyal to the hard working employee. How is that any different than any other company or work environment?

My personal experience with Lockheed (Sunnyvale and Palo Alto, CA) over a period of 27 years working both as a temporary contract hire and a permanent employee is that they will keep the productive people and shed the expendable ones like an old skin when cut-backs warrant a reduction in the workforce.

There are no loyalties when there is no work, except to those who left on good terms and with a good reputation toward re-establishing employment in the future.

In my case, I started as a job-shopper (as a summer hire) while going to college, they extended my contract once, and then hired me permanently in Sunnyvale. After almost four years as an employee, when the salary increases failed to equal what I thought I was worth, I left for a time and reapplied for a position in Palo Alto; they hired me again and I stayed their for twelve years until the promotions stopped coming and the increases were below the true California inflation rate. I left voluntarily with severance (16 weeks) and began to job-shop again. Within two years I was back at Lockheed working away at I higher pay than when I left. From there I went to the Newtown, PA facility on contract. Fourteen months later after an interim contract with another company, Newtown hired me back at a higher rate. And six months after that I was back in Sunnyvale at still a higher rate.

I am fifty-one years old, happy with my situation, happy about my career decisions, and happy when I have somewhere to go ever morning.

The many people here who slam Lockheed just sound disgruntled, resentful, and vengeful.

As further evidence of your biased accusations I will tell you that when my latest contract expired two weeks ago, I began to email everyone I ever knew at Lockheed that had hiring authority who might be able to help me in my job search. Of the Palo Alto people (twelve who were older than me and four who were about my age) all but one was still there. And that one left by his own choice.

Your claims do not match my experience or the proven history of the company.

And don't think I was a "kiss-ass"; I worked on my own terms and this annoyed many. The point is I worked, I produced, I learned with every new challenge. But I had no social skills; I lacked any sensibility about personal relations or networking. So when the cuts were deep enough they finally reached me. After the third manager from the one who had hired me came and left in retirement, the fourth told me he had no work for me and I would have to go to Sunnyvale Central Engineering. It was my own hard-headedness that made me deny this offer and take the severance.

A Lockheed manager will always prefer to move you along than to fire you. There was no cause to fire me because I always received good reviews and regular promotions.

So stop showing your true colors; a job with Lockheed is what you make of it. Take responsibility, change what needs to be changed, and move on. Or as in my case move back, move up, and reprove yourself in every way.

I'll keep you informed about when I am rehired again for a third time. It almost happened except that the Special Programs reduction coincided with the end of my contract. Hopefully it will be before I am fifty-five, so I can finish off my retirement with full benefits. If they do hire me it will surely go towards proving you very wrong.

Available: I know a guy on the east coast hiring virtually for an R&D project if you are a software engineer or architect. I do not want to post personal information on here either but can find a req. number.

As a further note: During my most recent one year contract in Sunnyvale, two engineers that were older than me were hired into the group. One had previous work history with Lockheed; the other did not.

Don't believe these idiots who have a vendetta and will say anything to get even.

Thanks. I was studying architecture when I started as a summer hire in the facilities department. The money was so good (at first) that I never went back. Also, I was hooked on the computergraphics of the CADAM drafting tool at the time (circa 1980). It was miles ahead of the "punch-card" systems they had at Cal-Poly SLO.

Now, I am hooked on I-DEAS (the UGS product previously called SDRC). I have 20 years experience in mechanical design of which 10 years has been done using the I-DEAS software. I'm good at what I do, which is design, draft, and release drawings.

I've also been placed in charge of GSE and cryostat projects.

If your friend has I-DEAS or is willing to purchase it, or if he wishes to contract with me and I'll purchase it, and he has an architectural application for it, then I would be very interested. It doesn't matter what part of the country, I will go.

Tell him I already have experience with I-DEAS in an architectural application. The last job I worked on in Palo Alto was the HIRDLS program. I worked on a vibration / alignment test fixture that required placing the instrument and the light source on different isolation tables in a clean room. I had to work out the handling of all the equipment from dolly transport to table installation using the cranes in the clean room, so I modeled the whole room. It made for a very nice presentation.

Let me know if he is interested. We can work out the communications later.

Bob in Woodbridge, Virginia said: I couldn't guarantee about the "hire and fire" aspect but, I do know that the leadership doesn't stick up for their people....it's all about keeping the client happy. If the client doesn't feel good today, you are gone! The company won't move an inch on your behalf. That's why I have come to the conclusion that if the company can "lay youy off", why can't you lay the company off. Either way, you'd be gone....try to work it on your terms.

Have you heard anything about layoffs at any of the Missile and Fire Control plants? I am looking at jobs at some of their manufacturing facilities in Troy, Alabama; Camden, Arkansas; Dallas and Orlando. While doing research on these places, I keep seeing lay-offs at Lockheed. Heard anything about this?

Mary from TI in Dallas, Texas said: [QUOTE who="....you are a piece of work.

Is this what LM pays you for?. PR, damage control? Trying to maintain your year end bonus or stock option, all of the above?

Your elitist HR fascade isn't fooling anybody here. It looks like your employees have already figured out whats going on inside LockMart. Your comment about needing to replace your 50something workforce tells me all I need to know about LM. I'd like to have a job when I'm fifty too someday without some pencilneck with a calculator trying to put me out to pasture because I am a blip on some HR guys demographics spreadsheet. Glad I'm not working there.

you really are a cretin..Lockheed hired me for a six figure salary a couple of days before my 50th birthday, you are really a sick person. Lockheed would never hire someone like you...you coildnt pass the most basic screening process

Charile Yi in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania said: One thing mentioned here before is if you have a good clearance they will not let you go unless you break the law. I see people sitting on overhead for months which speaks well for Lockheed.

Uh Charlie, you do realize that there is a 160 max now on that right?

Unless you're someone's pet, you're gone. I'm currently trying to find jobs for 100+ folks at your facilities there which are about to get RIF'ed. That said, there are a few folks on overhead who should've been let go months ago, but are still sucking on the system. Why is that...?

Sadly, we're probably going to lose about 25% of these folks to other companies. What really irritates me is that it's someone's political grandstanding at another site that is causing it ("their" people get to stay, the ones that are getting the program awards are being rolled off as best possible).

I'm not getting into the politics, but let me let you guys in on a little secret. Check out how many proposals your local sites are currently working on. If it's not many, then the outlook isn't so hot for your facility. VA and CA are good for now, but NY, parts of GA, and PA haven't been doing much as of late. If other sites are working on props for their folks, ask yourself why your site isn't...

Newbie in Owego, New York said: you really are a cretin..Lockheed hired me for a six figure salary a couple of days before my 50th birthday, you are really a sick person. Lockheed would never hire someone like you...you coildnt pass the most basic screening process

Well I do work for LM and more than likely you knew the right person to be your age and get hired, cuz the way I see it every single day when I walk down the hall is if you don't know the right person or if you don't have the correct people in your pocket you will go nowhere!!!! All LM cares about is "diversity" they don't care about your skill, your college degree, how hard you work everyday for them. I missed my daughters first day of kindergarten last year because of a program they wouldn't let me off for that day. They tell you if you don't like something you can do a "speak up" and this will be confidential BULLCRAP! cuz once you do, forget it - your on the mark forever!!! so don't lead people on that we work for a great company! be honest, it's not the same company i started with!

Charile Yi in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania said: One thing mentioned here before is if you have a good clearance they will not let you go unless you break the law. I see people sitting on overhead for months which speaks well for Lockheed.

Your information is INCORRECT! I know 2 people that have top secret clearances who have never done anything illegal in their lives but because they stood up for what they believed in they made sure they got rid of them, clearance or not - I'm sure they wouldn't have fired them if they were black or handicapp, they need to keep up their diversity record - that's all they care about, "being the most diversified company" they shouldn't be interested in what someone looks like but what their skills are!

Ryan in Hampton, Virginia said: Well, ask the 150+ or so white collar workers who were laid off at Lockheed Missile and Fire Control two weeks ago. Some had 8+ years with the company and were not dead weight. I worked as a contractor there till a month ago and moved on to greener pastures. (yeah, I committed the mortal contractor sin and broke my contract with them). While there I was grossly let down by the lack of intelligence and talent working there. It was a company of yes men/woman and those who thought out of the box built in the 1970s were chastised. The layoffs were common knowledge about 4 months out. During the months leading to this layoff they sent out offer letters and then rescinded them before the individual's start date.

Lockheed is a dying contractor. They are struggling to get new contracts and have entered into a profitable production phase, but this will only last so long. White collar workers should look elsewhere.

SickOfLockheed in Washington, District of Columbia said: I have a top clearance and love my work with my client. Lockheed gets in the way of doing anything substantial. Business Development is a joke and when you bring them solid leads because you work with the customer and therefore have customer intimacy, they run off to play golf. It is the "We build it and they will come" mentality."

Lockheed does not promote from within unless you are a minority or member of a special interest group. They make a lot of promises and then do not deliver asking you to justify a promotion when it was promised all along. Turnover amongst the staff who hold top security clearances is very high. It is higher than the industry in general. Raises are paltry compared to other companies and management has NO IDEA what we, as staff, do on project. They then base our reviews on pure conjecture.

Lockheed likes to tout its' "Full Spectrum Leadership," "Ethics" and "Inclusion" policies, but it's really just a joke to get more out of the government. That is, it is not for the benefit of the staff. In these cases, words speak and not actions.

THIS IS SOOOO MUCH THE TRUTH!! I'm so sick and tired to the execs getting richer & all the glamour while the actual employees get 0% of the credit! Frank Meyer knew when to leave Owego, he knew the ship was going down and he obviously wanted to get out on a good note and leave the rest of us to die! Thank god I got to leave LM, this is the worst company i've ever worked for!

30 layoffs of direct employee's happen today at Orlando LM-STS all of a sudden. They said a little belt tightening was needed. A hand full (maybe a dozen) of people that where job shoppers (on Contract) got let go last week.