Questions for Pro-life...

From:
felixthenat

To: lovealways25

Posted: Aug-09 04:06 PM (962 of 1014)

Which is the problem. Not everyone is cut out to be a manager, to be a computer programmer. Not everyone has a high IQ. Some people work better with their hands. Sure, I would love for everyone to go to college and get a Masters. I will encourage my kids to do it, yes, but it is unpractical to think that most will. In Los Angeles, the percentage of kids going to college right after high school is not even 50%. Have you looked at how expensive college is these days? Have you looked at how hard it is to even get s Stafford loan right now? Even with record low interest rates, this is keeping many, many kids out of school. So, what are you going to do with half the population that isn't skilled to have a non-labor related job?

Which is the problem. Not everyone is cut out to be a manager, to be a computer programmer. Not everyone has a high IQ. Some people work better with their hands. Sure, I would love for everyone to go to college and get a Masters. I will encourage my kids to do it, yes, but it is unpractical to think that most will. In Los Angeles, the percentage of kids going to college right after high school is not even 50%. Have you looked at how expensive college is these days? Have you looked at how hard it is to even get s Stafford loan right now? Even with record low interest rates, this is keeping many, many kids out of school. So, what are you going to do with half the population that isn't skilled to have a non-labor related job?

Natalie, proud Mommy to Henry (born 12/26/08) and Madeleine (born 5/25/11).

From:
dskid

To: lovealways25

Posted: Aug-09 04:08 PM (963 of 1014)

We make nothing in this country. The only way to have any job security is to sell debt (which is basically why I have a job), most of the people that have lost a job and have gone years without finding a new one did get a degree. So, to add insult to injury they paid to go to college and spent the time to do it and they have no use for it now. I do not work in the industry that I paid over $40k to get a degree in.

We make nothing in this country. The only way to have any job security is to sell debt (which is basically why I have a job), most of the people that have lost a job and have gone years without finding a new one did get a degree. So, to add insult to injury they paid to go to college and spent the time to do it and they have no use for it now. I do not work in the industry that I paid over $40k to get a degree in.

And you believe that science shows no bias for any personal beliefs. I disagree. It's almost impossible not to show bias -- it shows in what is tested, the controls that are used, the people that are tested, etc. Even a question can contain bias. People's beliefs influence their speech so why is it that, in your opinion, science is free of bias? Your beliefs about science are not fact, they are opinions that you have formed based on what you have learned and been taught. There is no way to debate abortion without discussing your own beliefs which is why I don't believe that science is any more relevant than the Bible. Scientific theories are not proven. In fact, they cannot be proven. They can only be disproven. Yet these theories are thought to be more valid than other postulates because they have been tested by men who call themselves scientists -- who are proposed to be less biased than other people because of the way their thoughts are tested.Â

You should write a book! It's an interesting experience. I've done it.Â

And you believe that science shows no bias for any personal beliefs. I disagree. It's almost impossible not to show bias -- it shows in what is tested, the controls that are used, the people that are tested, etc. Even a question can contain bias. People's beliefs influence their speech so why is it that, in your opinion, science is free of bias? Your beliefs about science are not fact, they are opinions that you have formed based on what you have learned and been taught. There is no way to debate abortion without discussing your own beliefs which is why I don't believe that science is any more relevant than the Bible. Scientific theories are not proven. In fact, they cannot be proven. They can only be disproven. Yet these theories are thought to be more valid than other postulates because they have been tested by men who call themselves scientists -- who are proposed to be less biased than other people because of the way their thoughts are tested.Â

You should write a book! It's an interesting experience. I've done it.Â

So how are we planning on building houses without people to build them? How are we going to have paved roads to drive on without people to pave them? It's not as catastrophic as you want to make it seem. There will always be unskilled labor positions, unless you think they will manufacture robots to clean businesses, hotels, etc. I can think of a lot of jobs that can't be replaced by computers or technology now or in the near future.

Yes, I know how expensive it is to go to school. I'm still in school. Scholarships are the only way many people will be able to go to school, but I don't think that's much of a change from the way it is right now.Â

So how are we planning on building houses without people to build them? How are we going to have paved roads to drive on without people to pave them? It's not as catastrophic as you want to make it seem. There will always be unskilled labor positions, unless you think they will manufacture robots to clean businesses, hotels, etc. I can think of a lot of jobs that can't be replaced by computers or technology now or in the near future.

Yes, I know how expensive it is to go to school. I'm still in school. Scholarships are the only way many people will be able to go to school, but I don't think that's much of a change from the way it is right now.Â

"It's almost impossible not to show bias -- it shows in what is tested, the controls that are used, the people that are tested, etc. Even a question can contain bias."

Of course the theory being tested can have initial bias. That initial bias does not have an affect on the outcome of tests. If it does, then some one will come along and rip it to shreds."Yet these theories are thought to be more valid than other postulates because they have been tested by men who call themselves scientists -- who are proposed to be less biased than other people because of the way their thoughts are tested."

I have not said a scientist is less biased. I have said that the outcomes of scientific tests are less biased (if of course performed the proper way). I'm not sure how you can't wrap your head around that. There is a HUGE difference between science and the Bible. You are just fishing for some loop hole to throw out science. It is a ridiculous argument IMO.

"It's almost impossible not to show bias -- it shows in what is tested, the controls that are used, the people that are tested, etc. Even a question can contain bias."

Of course the theory being tested can have initial bias. That initial bias does not have an affect on the outcome of tests. If it does, then some one will come along and rip it to shreds."Yet these theories are thought to be more valid than other postulates because they have been tested by men who call themselves scientists -- who are proposed to be less biased than other people because of the way their thoughts are tested."

I have not said a scientist is less biased. I have said that the outcomes of scientific tests are less biased (if of course performed the proper way). I'm not sure how you can't wrap your head around that. There is a HUGE difference between science and the Bible. You are just fishing for some loop hole to throw out science. It is a ridiculous argument IMO.

I don't think I am being catastrophic. I am being realistic. I think many jobs will be replaced by machines, computers and other humans in other countries. I didn't say all. I definitely do not foresee us having a shortage in the work force. If anything, I think you are being an alarmist in this argument.

I don't think I am being catastrophic. I am being realistic. I think many jobs will be replaced by machines, computers and other humans in other countries. I didn't say all. I definitely do not foresee us having a shortage in the work force. If anything, I think you are being an alarmist in this argument.

Natalie, proud Mommy to Henry (born 12/26/08) and Madeleine (born 5/25/11).

From:
ZombiesAreNoJoke

To: lovealways25

Posted: Aug-09 04:27 PM (968 of 1014)

Honestly I have not read all the responses to your posts so forgive me if this has been stated.

" If the population continues to decrease in growth then we can
make an educated guess at the effect that will have on the world. "

Holy crap, if the population decreased around the world then we could all breathe a big old sigh of relief. The world can comfortably sustain a population of humans HALF the size of the current population. This argument is a really bad one.

Honestly I have not read all the responses to your posts so forgive me if this has been stated.

" If the population continues to decrease in growth then we can
make an educated guess at the effect that will have on the world. "

Holy crap, if the population decreased around the world then we could all breathe a big old sigh of relief. The world can comfortably sustain a population of humans HALF the size of the current population. This argument is a really bad one.

Most people that support abortion want a smaller population. Of course we could sustain a smaller population, we could also sustain a larger one.Â

I feel like this thread is just bringing me down. I keep hearing that we need fewer people in the world so that we can have more opportunities and less competition, the lives of the unborn are not important enough to argue for no matter what the argument is. I think more people means more creativity and innovation plus more development. More opportunities for love and growth. More opportunities for good people that make the world a brighter place to live.Â

But If most of you think we are overpopulated now and new people are a burden on the world, then yes I understand your viewpoint but I don't want to discuss it anymore.

Â

I get it now.

Most people that support abortion want a smaller population. Of course we could sustain a smaller population, we could also sustain a larger one.Â

I feel like this thread is just bringing me down. I keep hearing that we need fewer people in the world so that we can have more opportunities and less competition, the lives of the unborn are not important enough to argue for no matter what the argument is. I think more people means more creativity and innovation plus more development. More opportunities for love and growth. More opportunities for good people that make the world a brighter place to live.Â

But If most of you think we are overpopulated now and new people are a burden on the world, then yes I understand your viewpoint but I don't want to discuss it anymore.

I don't think that anyone is pro-choice because they want a smaller population.. I think that everyone was just pointing out that underpopulation was a really bad argument for getting rid of abortion, it isn't relevant.

I don't think that anyone is pro-choice because they want a smaller population.. I think that everyone was just pointing out that underpopulation was a really bad argument for getting rid of abortion, it isn't relevant.

Natalie, proud Mommy to Henry (born 12/26/08) and Madeleine (born 5/25/11).

From:
chambette

To: lovealways25

Posted: Aug-09 04:53 PM (974 of 1014)

Everyone knows I'm pro-life...do I agree with everything you've said? I don't know. I do believe that there will be changes in the workforce once we do make it through this recession, and there may not be as much job demand. But I also can understand how the world will change, job needs will change, people will adapt. I don't be that "overpopulation" is a good excuse for abortion, but at the same time, i don't believe that "under population" is a good argument against it.

But I have enjoyed listening to you debate :)

Everyone knows I'm pro-life...do I agree with everything you've said? I don't know. I do believe that there will be changes in the workforce once we do make it through this recession, and there may not be as much job demand. But I also can understand how the world will change, job needs will change, people will adapt. I don't be that "overpopulation" is a good excuse for abortion, but at the same time, i don't believe that "under population" is a good argument against it.

I still believe abortion is murder. Murder is wrong, and it is too bad that some people can get away with commiting murder. Yes I consider a woman choosing to have an abortion the same as any person killing another person. That is just how I feel. As much as I wish the laws would see it that way I know the women's right to choose will be an arguement. Unfortunately many women getting abortions already made the bad decision to have unprotected sex, and some of those consider it a form of birth control. Some women later can feel guilty and wish they had decided to do an abortion. So the quick fix to not deal with the pregnancy can nip them in the butt. Abortion is just something I can never support.

I still believe abortion is murder. Murder is wrong, and it is too bad that some people can get away with commiting murder. Yes I consider a woman choosing to have an abortion the same as any person killing another person. That is just how I feel. As much as I wish the laws would see it that way I know the women's right to choose will be an arguement. Unfortunately many women getting abortions already made the bad decision to have unprotected sex, and some of those consider it a form of birth control. Some women later can feel guilty and wish they had decided to do an abortion. So the quick fix to not deal with the pregnancy can nip them in the butt. Abortion is just something I can never support.

I really started noticing it about 10 years ago. Companies started outsourcing the non profit areas of their companies. Like....my job in payroll. Instead of having a team that would cost you $100,000 a year you would outsource the entire payroll to a company for $75,000 a year. It is financially responsible, but HORRIBLE to those of us who aren't entry level clerks.

I really started noticing it about 10 years ago. Companies started outsourcing the non profit areas of their companies. Like....my job in payroll. Instead of having a team that would cost you $100,000 a year you would outsource the entire payroll to a company for $75,000 a year. It is financially responsible, but HORRIBLE to those of us who aren't entry level clerks.

"Yes I consider a woman choosing to have an abortion the same as
any person killing another person."

I have to say, I find that statement pretty darn ridiculous. I have had two friends murdered, and I can assure you there is no similarity between an abortion and what their families went through. After my abortion, the local news was not staking out my house, there were no candle light vigils held night after night on my front lawn, there were no grieving relatives trying to find some semblance of normalcy in their lives in the aftermath, the community was not living in fear hoping that I did not break into their homes and kill them too, there were no fundraising drives to pay for a funeral... I could go on for days.

You're entitled to your opinion and all, but I'm guessing you have no idea the impact a murder has on a family and a community. Comparing the two in such a glib way diminishes what the friends and family of a murder victim go through.

"Yes I consider a woman choosing to have an abortion the same as
any person killing another person."

I have to say, I find that statement pretty darn ridiculous. I have had two friends murdered, and I can assure you there is no similarity between an abortion and what their families went through. After my abortion, the local news was not staking out my house, there were no candle light vigils held night after night on my front lawn, there were no grieving relatives trying to find some semblance of normalcy in their lives in the aftermath, the community was not living in fear hoping that I did not break into their homes and kill them too, there were no fundraising drives to pay for a funeral... I could go on for days.

You're entitled to your opinion and all, but I'm guessing you have no idea the impact a murder has on a family and a community. Comparing the two in such a glib way diminishes what the friends and family of a murder victim go through.

Aditch, Danielle and many others have stated what I would have already said as far as you bringing up popluation control as an argument against abortion. However, there is always immigration but that is going to open a whole other can of worms. I agree with what has been said about the earth as a whole being over populated to the point where it can no longer sustain itself if we keep going the way we are with resources.

Abortion is a hugely complex set of issues that tangle and weave amongst each other the issues cause and present. To be black and white about the whole issue leaves me speechless and if one isn't open to at least hearing the point of views and considering each point for it's merit, than I have no idea why one would be on a debating forum.

My personal reasons for being pro-choice are many but the main one is that there are MANY anti-abortionists who agree that birth control, specifically IUD's, certain types of the pill, the morning pill and more are the same as an abortion. Their cause is gaining momentum, heck - the Pope agrees with this statement. They would outlaw all birth control if they could but specifically the anti-implantation types. Birth control is only as accurate as the person using it. That is why there is such a high fail rate of birth control. I, personally, believe that one of the key factors to reducing abortions is for the popluation to use more user error friendly type of birth controls like the IUD or the pill types that are anti-implantation. For me to be anti-abortion also equates to me voting and giving the extremists more power to outlaw effective methods of birth control.

As far as watching an abortion clip - I have. What about it do you think will make me change my mind? And what clip would you have me watch? Silent Scream has been said and done so many times on this website- it is really biased. I am not 'ok' with all abortions and would like to see some changes to abortion laws however that debate has also been done on here.

I really don't see how "spontaneously aborting" aka miscarrying a 2 week fertilized egg ( by using birth control ) is any different than aborting an 8 week fertilized egg. The only difference is that a woman doesn't know she has conceived for sure vs knowingly that an egg has indeed been fertilized. I would LOVE to see time restrictions on ' elective abortions' under 12 weeks, preferably sooner. If science were to prove that the fetus actually has brainwaves and brain activity during the first trimester than I would re-think my position. But as it stands, the heart beating isn't the factor in determining if life exists, medically speaking. It is brain activity, that is why it is legal pull the plug on brain dead victims.

Not every mother to be will step up to the plate and be a responsible mother, no matter how bad we think they should or will. To simply state that people would own up to their reality is dreaming. Browse the news and this becomes apparent! Some mothers will and some won't. As awful and heartbreaking as ' elective abortions' are - who is going to take care of these children? We have a hugely strained social assistance program. We don't have enough foster homes right now to support the children that are in need today. The world's resources are being taxed to the breaking point.

If we can fix all these problems, then I will re-think my position on abortion. That is a promise!

WOW!?

Aditch, Danielle and many others have stated what I would have already said as far as you bringing up popluation control as an argument against abortion. However, there is always immigration but that is going to open a whole other can of worms. I agree with what has been said about the earth as a whole being over populated to the point where it can no longer sustain itself if we keep going the way we are with resources.

Abortion is a hugely complex set of issues that tangle and weave amongst each other the issues cause and present. To be black and white about the whole issue leaves me speechless and if one isn't open to at least hearing the point of views and considering each point for it's merit, than I have no idea why one would be on a debating forum.

My personal reasons for being pro-choice are many but the main one is that there are MANY anti-abortionists who agree that birth control, specifically IUD's, certain types of the pill, the morning pill and more are the same as an abortion. Their cause is gaining momentum, heck - the Pope agrees with this statement. They would outlaw all birth control if they could but specifically the anti-implantation types. Birth control is only as accurate as the person using it. That is why there is such a high fail rate of birth control. I, personally, believe that one of the key factors to reducing abortions is for the popluation to use more user error friendly type of birth controls like the IUD or the pill types that are anti-implantation. For me to be anti-abortion also equates to me voting and giving the extremists more power to outlaw effective methods of birth control.

As far as watching an abortion clip - I have. What about it do you think will make me change my mind? And what clip would you have me watch? Silent Scream has been said and done so many times on this website- it is really biased. I am not 'ok' with all abortions and would like to see some changes to abortion laws however that debate has also been done on here.

I really don't see how "spontaneously aborting" aka miscarrying a 2 week fertilized egg ( by using birth control ) is any different than aborting an 8 week fertilized egg. The only difference is that a woman doesn't know she has conceived for sure vs knowingly that an egg has indeed been fertilized. I would LOVE to see time restrictions on ' elective abortions' under 12 weeks, preferably sooner. If science were to prove that the fetus actually has brainwaves and brain activity during the first trimester than I would re-think my position. But as it stands, the heart beating isn't the factor in determining if life exists, medically speaking. It is brain activity, that is why it is legal pull the plug on brain dead victims.

Not every mother to be will step up to the plate and be a responsible mother, no matter how bad we think they should or will. To simply state that people would own up to their reality is dreaming. Browse the news and this becomes apparent! Some mothers will and some won't. As awful and heartbreaking as ' elective abortions' are - who is going to take care of these children? We have a hugely strained social assistance program. We don't have enough foster homes right now to support the children that are in need today. The world's resources are being taxed to the breaking point.

If we can fix all these problems, then I will re-think my position on abortion. That is a promise!

I agree with you, and will go out on a limb and be really extreme and judgmental for a moment on the pro-lifers...

The best solution to abortions? Prevention. Education.

Unfortunately, the US has such a high rate of teen pregnancy, because you know what these kids are taught in school about their bodies and the risks they are taking with their bodies when they have sex? NOTHING.

So, until the right-wingers pull their heads out of the asses and decide to actually teach the children how not to get pregnant, then we're going to have to deal with all these unwanted children some way. And unfortunately, one of those ways is abortion.

They can't have it both ways. They can't teach children nothing about sex in school, then offer them no help when their complete lack of education lets them down and gets them in the baby-way. It's sort of not their fault.Â

So instead of protesting abortions and abortion laws, people that are pro-life should get their asses out there and encourage the government to teach teens how to not get themselves in that situation in the first place. They'd save a lot more lives that way....Â The US has abhorrent educations classes, and the statistics show it - highest rates of STDs and STIs among developed nations, highest teen pregnancy rate among developed nations, and highest abortion rates among developed nations. The solution is to teach your children better - and teaching them to "just not have sex" isn't good enough.

I agree with you, and will go out on a limb and be really extreme and judgmental for a moment on the pro-lifers...

The best solution to abortions? Prevention. Education.

Unfortunately, the US has such a high rate of teen pregnancy, because you know what these kids are taught in school about their bodies and the risks they are taking with their bodies when they have sex? NOTHING.

So, until the right-wingers pull their heads out of the asses and decide to actually teach the children how not to get pregnant, then we're going to have to deal with all these unwanted children some way. And unfortunately, one of those ways is abortion.

They can't have it both ways. They can't teach children nothing about sex in school, then offer them no help when their complete lack of education lets them down and gets them in the baby-way. It's sort of not their fault.Â

So instead of protesting abortions and abortion laws, people that are pro-life should get their asses out there and encourage the government to teach teens how to not get themselves in that situation in the first place. They'd save a lot more lives that way....Â The US has abhorrent educations classes, and the statistics show it - highest rates of STDs and STIs among developed nations, highest teen pregnancy rate among developed nations, and highest abortion rates among developed nations. The solution is to teach your children better - and teaching them to "just not have sex" isn't good enough.

The educational situation IS laughable. And it isn't completely the fault of the educators. I knew a girl who got pregnant while on birth control. She was very upset and beside herself with the situation. I started asking her about her birth control habits. I found that she was taking her pill at random times through out the day with no concern to the time. 37 years old and she didn't know that would decrease the effectiveness. I do blame her lack of educating herself, but I also think her doctor should have mentioned 'something' about that. I am on the mini pill right now. It MUST be taken at the same time and is considered significantly less effective if you take it an hour late and completely useless if you take it three hours later. It is highly suggested that you take it about two hours before sex. I wonder how many new moms are handed the mini pill and they don't bother to actually read the insert because they think they know how to take a BC pill.

The educational situation IS laughable. And it isn't completely the fault of the educators. I knew a girl who got pregnant while on birth control. She was very upset and beside herself with the situation. I started asking her about her birth control habits. I found that she was taking her pill at random times through out the day with no concern to the time. 37 years old and she didn't know that would decrease the effectiveness. I do blame her lack of educating herself, but I also think her doctor should have mentioned 'something' about that. I am on the mini pill right now. It MUST be taken at the same time and is considered significantly less effective if you take it an hour late and completely useless if you take it three hours later. It is highly suggested that you take it about two hours before sex. I wonder how many new moms are handed the mini pill and they don't bother to actually read the insert because they think they know how to take a BC pill.

The material on this website is provided for educational purposes only and is not to be used for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment, or in place of therapy or medical care. Use of this site is subject to our terms of use and privacy policy

Advertising Notice

This Site and third parties who place advertisements on this Site may collect and use information about your visits to this Site and other websites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services of interest to you. If you would like to obtain more information about these advertising practices and to make choices about online behavioral advertising, please click here