This train of thought started after considering the fab four being discussed at present:

JO
Al
Danny
Quis

If Runi is on that squad, I have at least two questions:

1. Do the other four have the ability to make up for Runi's defensive liabilities?

2. Does Quis provide as good (or even better) ball handling/creating skills at two guard, like Freddy did, to help Runi in a ball-handling pinch?

I do think Runi can be the shooting threat we're looking for--with confidence and playing time. He also could work nicely with the other four very athletic players.

Ralph Snart

07-25-2006, 04:52 PM

I suspect he'll have a better year than last year. My hope is that he will work on his weaknesses this summer, dribbling the ball up court, and defense.

The league is full of succesful teams with poor defensive point guards (Miami, San Antonio, Sacramento, Dallas, et al.), I don't think his defensive weakness is that much of a concern, especially if the four guys behind him are solid.

My bigger concern is whether or not he will keep his conditioning for the full season, and whether he will learn to move with the ball against an NBA defense.

But based on the few flashes he showed last year - I think he has it in him to contribute, maybe even start, if he puts the effort in.

The Hustler

07-25-2006, 04:55 PM

certainly interesting ... but does it matter who starts so much as whos in different units and whos in at crunch time .... i think that line up could be played at times possibly even with White in to play either 2 or 3 with Quis, then one of 3 could handle ( talk about Multi positions)... certainly allow us to get out with the balll .. lots of handling skills! Problems with that from lack of experience :S

as far as Runi starting ... i doubt it! ... u cant ignore what happened at the end off last yr ... mind u .. if were left with the PGs we got now .. and Tins gets injured (again) he may start a few games ...!

DeS

07-25-2006, 05:08 PM

Well, I guess, even the Runi haters have a little doubt that he will start a lot of games next year ;)
My concern is that Rick will play him 2 again because of the lack of the 3pt. shooters.
BTW, Runi mentioned (in local news site) that he would like to play for Pacers. It seems like he isn't alienated with coach or players.

Frank Slade

07-25-2006, 05:20 PM

I just ask that he be given a chance this year, all things considered after his rookie season.

Going into this season it needs to be made clear what everyone's role is. If Sarunas is on this team these DNP 's Coach's Decision will not help anyone this year.

If he does not start, he needs to have significant playing time, in order to provide a consistent contribution to the team.

I know Sarunas was apparently not ready conditioning wise for last year's season, and lost at times. I would expect that he has been preparing himself though for the gruling 82 game season this year.

Defense is what is, you can only improve on that so much and their are alot of one dimensional players that have succeeded in this league to some degree.

Off the bench or starting I look for significant improvement this season given the chance and used in the right role.

Jay@Section12

07-25-2006, 05:23 PM

If he's your starting PG, you've got big problems.

Coop

07-25-2006, 05:24 PM

I agree with Frank. Well said man.

BTW, if Carlisle plays Sarunas at the 2 more than the 1 (like he did last year), I'm going to go nuts. The guy is not a Shooting Guard. He's played PG his whole life and I dont see why Rick doesn't understand that.

Naptown_Seth

07-25-2006, 05:29 PM

Let's look at 04-05 for help. With Tinsley out how much did Gill play, especially down the stretch? How about the playoffs vs Boston? He came in one game, got ripped in the backcourt a couple of times, struggled to advance the ball all game, hello bench for the rest of the playoffs (except scrub time).

Cabbages MUST have improved his ball handling in the back court and must be capable of initiating some plays on his own. He can't cry about how phycial things are or how he needs picks all the time. And he definitely needs to STFU about how he is a PG and not a SG and shouldn't be misplayed when he is on a team with Jack at SF, Danny at PF and Foster at C. Seriously, that's a crap attitude.

If he has worked on the ball handling skills, put his ego in check, and can at least keep track of his man on the court

- I posted at RATS about him literally losing where his man was in the HC last year, complete with frantic looking around like hide and go seek and then the "I F'd up" look after his dude busted the shot on the other side of the court

then he can certainly be a productive PG for this team, though he will not beat out a healthy Tinsley if it comes to that. He's good, but not that good.

He is almost as good a passer as Tinsley and he understands floor movement just as well as him. He has a better 3 than Tinsley, but nowhere near the handles and speed, nor the defensive hands for the steals. To me that rates him as a nice solid BU, just like AJ became once he learned to advance the ball safely after his own rough 04-05 effort.

I think that Jeff Foster will start reliably making three pointers before Sarunas can overcome all of those deficiencies and be an effective 35-minutes-a-game starting PG on a winning NBA team.

Robertmto

07-25-2006, 05:37 PM

Let's not

Jay@Section12

07-25-2006, 05:38 PM

- I posted at RATS about him literally losing where his man was in the HC last year, complete with frantic looking around like hide and go seek and then the "I F'd up" look after his dude busted the shot on the other side of the court

My favorite was in the home opener. He was standing in the paint, pointing out where everyone else should be.

The ball rotated to Korver, who was unguarded in the corner. As the shot went up and in (as Saras sprinted out as fast as he could), you could see the "oops!" expression on his face.

:disappoin

Way to make a first impression. Its no wonder the team was not interested in his alleged "leadership" skills. (And its why I call him "bossy", but not a "leader.")

+ + + +

I am concerned about how much stuff we seem to agree on. :-p

Destined4Greatness

07-25-2006, 05:47 PM

He needs to improve his entire overall game. And become faster. And at the age of 30 or is it 31. I don't see that as happening. He can't bring the ball up under pressure, he yells at his teammates when he screws up. He passes to teammates when they are covered so well that they can't get control and TO the ball, his shot was second worst on the roster only Gill had a worse percentage. And he thinks he is above Defense, He is not a quality player.

Greene can bring the ball up the floor just as poorly as runi, but he plays Defense. I don't care what Bird says, when you get down to it. Tinsley, Daniels, and Greene are superior all around players at the point. And White could be. If we have too, I could see us having somebody besides Greene bring it up the floor when hes in.

Anthem

07-25-2006, 05:48 PM

Greene can bring the ball up the floor just as poorly as runi, but he plays Defense. I don't care what Bird says, when you get down to it. Tinsley, Daniels, and Greene are superior all around players at the point. And White could be. If we have too, I could see us having somebody besides Greene bring it up the floor when hes in.
I haven't seen a ton of Greene, but I thought his handles were decent. Do I remember wrong?

Trader Joe

07-25-2006, 05:50 PM

Let's not

:puke: QFT

Destined4Greatness

07-25-2006, 05:52 PM

I haven't seen a ton of Greene, but I thought his handles were decent. Do I remember wrong?

The only time I saw him it was rather poor. But so was his Defense, I just knew his defensive Rep. I could be wrong about his ability to bring the ball up on the floor.

Slick Pinkham

07-25-2006, 06:11 PM

Greene's draft express profile sounds great but does mention a need to improve his handle:

Strengths:
An extremely unique prospect in this draft, one of a kind in terms of the size, skills, athleticism and talent he possesses at his position.

Greene is a 6-5 pass-first PG with outstanding athletic ability, a great wingspan and fantastic skills on the defensive end. His physical attributes alone should get him quite a few looks, as he is built extremely well and has all the size, strength and length you could ask for from a player at his position.

Greene has been playing the PG position his entire life except for his two seasons in Gainesville and appears to have very good instincts at the position. He played for probably the best mid-major team you never heard of or saw on TV, a superb group of talented athletes that came very close to knocking off a Final Four team in Louisville in the NCAA tournament. Watching him play it's hard not to think what a talent he is, and you have to wonder what might have been had things fallen his way in the luck department since he graduated from high school. Those who followed high school basketball 5-6 years ago will remember that Greene was considered one of the most talented players in the nation at his position (a top 30 recruit) and was named Mr. Basketball in the state of Florida after putting up one of the most impressive senior years of any Florida player in years, helping to lead a no-name team from Gainesville to back to back state titles.

Defensively is where he excels the most right now, and he was named the Sun Belt defensive player of the year two years in a row to back that up, despite playing on one leg for most of the last season. His lateral movement is superb and his hands are excellent, he can guard both the 1 and the 2 positions and has the ability to stay in front of pretty much any PG in the country. He has an uncanny knack for anticipating steals and getting in the passing lanes, and has been on the right end of numerous breakaways to finish with an emphatic dunk thanks to this skill. Greene is excellent at putting pressure on the ball, and is very good at sticking his hand in just the right spot to pick his opponent's pocket and come up with the steal. He has no problem getting dirty to help out his team, and will put his body in the right place to draw the offensive foul. He is an excellent rebounder for his position, averaging close to 5 rebounds per game

In terms of his playmaking skills, he is as mentioned an extremely unselfish, pass-first PG. His court vision is above average (better than his best NBA comparison--Keyon Dooling), and certainly good enough to get by as a backup on most NBA teams. He is good at putting the ball where his teammates like it, knows how to find the open man, and is probably at his best when he is making the simple, but efficient bounce pass for an easy lay-up. His ability to get in the lane make him a very good drive and dish threat. In transition is where Greene really excels. He has very good speed in the open court, and shows much better decision making skills than in the half-court, where he is still a bit rough around the edges. He plays on a team that loves to get up and down the floor, and when Greene is focused (on) and playing within himself, he can push the tempo and his team can run with the best of them.

Offensively, he can create his own shot, although he has a tendency to get ahead of himself and try to do a little too much. His shooting is probably better than his numbers would indicate--he is by no means a great shooter--but he can knock down the open three if you give him space. He is more of a rhythm shooter, I've seen him knock down threes from close to NBA range during games, but he has a long ways to go in this area despite being adequate on the catch and shoot. He can pull-up from mid-range off the dribble or use his size to post up his man and muscle his way to the hoop, a nice skill to have considering that he'll always be bigger and stronger than his matchup at any level he plays at.

Basketball is clearly something that is in Greene's blood, as he's been playing the game from a very young age. He is very smart without the ball and really knows how to pick his spots. Thanks to his outstanding athletic ability, he is excellent at making good sharp cuts towards the basket and he changes directions quickly. He's an extremely fluid athlete with good quickness, a very nice first step and a terrific vertical leap. Once his ball-handling gets a little better, he'll most likely be exceptionally quick with the ball in his hands as well, as he is already very quick without it.

Off the court, despite the hardships he has been through, he is described by his coaching staff at Lafayette as a quiet kid and solid citizen with an outstanding attitude who is well respected by his teammates.

Once you get outside of the top 5 PG's (Paul, Felton, D-Williams, Jarrett Jack, Roko Leni-Ukic) he has about as much upside as any of the PG's in this draft.

Weaknesses:
Probably his biggest weaknesses and something that he will have to get better at if he is going to have any chance of being drafted is his outside shot. His mechanics need work, as his left elbow flails out to the side every time he spots up (think of Josh Childress, although it's his left elbow, not his right, and it isn't quite as pronounced). He shot a poor percentage from both the field (39%) and from behind the arc (32.4%) although he was actually quite respectable the year before that (45% and 36%).

What's most likely the biggest reason for that is the fact that Greene is still quite a raw player in many facets of the game despite his age (he recently turned 23). He has a tendency to force the issue at times, as his assist to turnover ratio (4.0 to 3.3) would attest. He is often out of control driving to the hoop, forcing his way to the basket and struggling to make good decisions with the ball in his hands, especially in terms of his shot selection. At times Greene appears to have an outstanding feel for the game, and then on the next possession he will make a bone-headed move that will make you scratch your head (Florida fans have yet to forgive him for failing to call a timeout and getting called for a five second call on an inbounds play in the last minute of double overtime in their eventual loss to Creighton in the 2002 NCAA tournament). Consistency is a major issue for Orien, he has problems maintaining his focus mentally over a span of 40 minutes, especially when fatigue is involved. This was a bigger issue (fatigue) than it should have been, as Lafayette is not a deep team and Greene played for much of the season coming off a bad injury that would have held most players out for the entire year.

His ball-handling is good enough for the college level, but will have to get stronger to play the point in the NBA, as his handle is a bit loose at times.

In general Greene is a little rough around the edges in many aspects, but his age might turn off some NBA types.

Competition:
Greene appeared to be on his way for a breakout season until he broke his leg when his team went to play Kansas on the road. He decided to rush himself back and was back on the court after sitting out one month and only 6 games, playing for the rest of the season at less than full strength. His team won 14 of their last 17 games after he returned, and made the NCAA tournament for the third straight year, Greene's fourth trip in his four years (with two different teams) to the Big Dance. In the tournament itself Greene was a complete non-factor because of foul trouble. He got called for three questionable offensive fouls, and ended up only playing 18 minutes in that game.

Greene played his basketball in the Sun-Belt conference, a mid tier mid-major conference whose best teams beside Lafayette include Denver (home of another prospect you'll be hearing a lot about next year, Yemi Nicholson), Arkansas Little Rock (Derek Fisher's alma matter) and Western Kentucky. Lafayette went 11-4 in this conference and absolutely destroyed anyone who stood in their way in their conference tournament (winning their three games by a combined 44 points) while clinching a spot in the NCAA tournament.

Greene sat out the 2002-2003 season after transferring from the University of Florida.

Was recruited by Billy Donovan to play at the University of Florida and spent his first two seasons in college there. His father was facing major legal issues (to say the least) and Greene struggled in the classroom before eventually transferring to Lafayette. His two seasons at Florida will not be remembered as anything that special. He was played at the SF position (Brett Nelson and Justin Hamilton both got the nods at the two guard spots because of seniority) and failed to make a huge impact for his team while playing out of position, despite starting for Florida in every game his sophomore year.

Outlook:
Automatically eligible as a graduating senior. A 2nd round pick at best, with a more than decent shot at going undrafted. Really depends on how he does in workouts, how he positions himself in this draft, and whether or not players will be willing to work out against him.

Comments:
Everybody has their favorite sleeper prospects in the draft, and I may have just found one of mine, thanks to the coaching staff at Louisiana Lafayette, who made sure to provide me with all the tapes and info I needed to make sure he gets a look (nudge nudge mid-major schools for next year). Whether or not he will get a shot to make the league is anyone's guess, but I could see a quiet buzz developing around Orien once he starts working out for teams and showing off his unique package of skills and considerable upside. Matt Bonner and Udonis Haslem (two former Florida Gators who had to take a back route into the league and are now on their way to big NBA paydays) have both been quoted saying that Greene was by far the best player on the court every time they played a pickup game together. Whether or not that will be enough to get him invited to Chicago (where I personally think he could do extremely well) is anyone's guess. He's at least good enough to get some summer league looks, so hopefully this is not the last time we hear about him. NBA teams could probably do a lot worse drafting late in the 2nd round. He has some skills that are reminiscint of Marquis Daniels when he was at Auburn.

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 06:13 PM

Could Runi become the starter next year (at some point?).

This train of thought started after considering the fab four being discussed at present:

JO
Al
Danny
Quis

If Runi is on that squad, I have at least two questions:

1. Do the other four have the ability to make up for Runi's defensive liabilities?

2. Does Quis provide as good (or even better) ball handling/creating skills at two guard, like Freddy did, to help Runi in a ball-handling pinch?

I do think Runi can be the shooting threat we're looking for--with confidence and playing time. He also could work nicely with the other four very athletic players.

With no disrespect, Sarunas Jasivicius as starting PG on an NBA Caliber play-off team?

Don't you see why Larry got rid of A.J.? To give Sarunas a chance at back-up PG now A.J. is gone so he can see how much of a bust his "European prospect" is...I hope Sarunas plays very well at the back-up PG position and prove us wrong but let's say Tinsley got hurt, Marquis Daniels should then be the starting PG.

Sorry to say but Sarunas is one of the worst defenders in the league and does not know how to bring the ball up the court. I would rather have had A.J. than him but this is his chance to prove that even belongs in the NBA. To say he should be starting PG of this team is comical. Tinsley is our starting PG and I am looking forward in him having a healthy season and i'm sure Tinsley will have some nagging injuries where he will be forced to miss a couple of games and that is another time where Sarunas will get a chance at starting PG but Sarunas is not even good enough to hold Tinsley's jock-strap in the lockerroom.

Kegboy

07-25-2006, 06:19 PM

Do I think Cabbage will start this year? Yep, cause it's a statistical improbability that Tinsley will start every game (no matter what people are saying lately), and I'm not sold on Daniels at that position.

Do I think it's a good thing? Um, no. Hence my Chicken Little impersonation the last couple days.

Frank Slade

07-25-2006, 06:26 PM

I believe Tinsley at 75% healthy is better than Sarunas at 100%, and would love to have Tins start. That said let me know when he gets to 75%, I can't wait :cool:
(seriously)

My entire point is I don't care if Sarunas starts, comes of the bench or helps us aquire a better starting PG. If he is on this team though, as Bird said he is a 1 not a 2, and if he is your backup fine , no need to bench him for games at a time, if you feel he is really that bad then get rid of him.

If we are talking about a NBA veteran who has years under his belt and he had a year like last year, it's whole different story I am just trying to keeping it all in proper perspective.

I think that Jeff Foster will start reliably making three pointers before Sarunas can overcome all of those deficiencies and be an effective 35-minutes-a-game starting PG on a winning NBA team.
Ballhandling- Yes. Although we did see some considerable improvement throughout the season.

Decision-making- Really? I think he has a fairly high BBall IQ. He just needs to cut down on the fancy passes when a simple pass will do.

Shooting- Come on.

Crossover on offense- Definitely.

Footwork on defense- Yes, but he doesn't need to be fantastic on defense. Just not a liability. Out of the top eight teams in the NBA last season I'd say that only Chauncey Billups could be considered an elite defensive player as a PG with JKidd and Eric Snow both good but losing a step. The rest; Nash, Terry, Cassell, JWill, Parker are not exactly defensive stalwarts.

I'd say it's doable. Saras can definitely become a quality backup in the NBA and possibly also a starter (although I'd have to see how he develops before giving him the keys). I definitely wouldn't want to trade him.

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 06:39 PM

Ballhandling- Yes. Although we did some considerable improvement throughout the season.

Imrovement? Are you joking? It kept getting worse and worse when other teams knew all they had to do was pressure him up the court. It became so bad where we needed A.J. back in the game after 2 mins of Sarunas on the court against the Nets in the playoffs.

Decision-making- Really? I think he has a fairly high BBall IQ. He just needs to cut down on the fancy passes when a simple pass will do.

All those turn-overs didn't mean anything right? His decision making isn't the worst of his abilities...the worst of his abilities are his abilities themself (he's just not that talented)

Shooting- Come on.

He can make a wide open three with no one covering him and that diminished in thge 2nd half of the season. With a hand in his face, no way he makes a three.

Crossover on offense- Definitely.

Affirmative.

Footwork on defense- Yes, but he doesn't need to be fantastic on defense. Just not a liability. Out of the top eight teams in the NBA last season I'd say that only Chauncey Billups could be considered an elite defensive player as a PG with JKidd and Eric Snow both good but losing a step. The rest; Nash, Terry, Cassell, JWill, Parker are not exactly defensive stalwarts.

Sarunas doesn't have to be the best defender in the league but on the other side, he is one of the worst defenders in the entire NBA. Sarunas needs to became a defender good enough that doesn't make scrubs like Jacques Vaughn look like Allen Iverson but his defense can't improve that much. Just look at his fragile body.

I'd say it's doable. Saras can definitely become a quality backup in the NBA and possibly also a starter (although I'd have to see how he develops before giving him the keys). I definitely wouldn't want to trade him.

I hope Sarunas can become a quality back-up in the NBA but no way he chould be a starter on a play-off team, let alone a lottery team like Toronto...we will see what happens though. Gluck to him.

BlueNGold

07-25-2006, 07:01 PM

Sarunas has much to prove to even be considered a solid backup PG. He has some terrific tools, but the gaps in his game are so huge it seems unlikely he will be able to close them.

DeS

07-25-2006, 07:10 PM

He needs to improve his entire overall game. And become faster. And at the age of 30 or is it 31. I don't see that as happening. He can't bring the ball up under pressure, he yells at his teammates when he screws up. He passes to teammates when they are covered so well that they can't get control and TO the ball, his shot was second worst on the roster only Gill had a worse percentage. And he thinks he is above Defense, He is not a quality player.
People, let's get reasonable. Of course Sarunas has flaws, but he isn't that bad as You picture him. You mentioned TO's and shooting. If you compare it with Tinsley, you'll see that his (Runi) TO statistics is much better (1.55 to 2.84). If You compare shooting:
Runi - Tinsley
FT: .91 .637
FG: .396 .409
3PT: .364 .229
You will see, that Runi is more effective shooter (considering that he is shooting mostly 3 pointers) as his scoring-per-shot is a way higher and FT much better. And he is among Pacers best shooters (3pt) even considering his terrible end of the season. I'm not saying that he is better than somebody, but let's respect the facts.

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 07:11 PM

People, let's get reasonable. Of course Sarunas has flaws, but he isn't that bad as You picture him. You mentioned TO's and shooting. If you compare it with Tinsley, you'll see that his (Runi) TO statistics is much better (1.55 to 2.84). If You compare shooting:
Runi - Tinsley
FT: .91 .637
FG: .396 .409
3PT: .364 .229
You will see, that Runi is more effective shooter (considering that he is shooting mostly 3 pointers) as his scoring-per-shot is a way higher and FT much better. And he is among Pacers best shooters (3pt) even considering his terrible end of the season. I'm not saying that he is better than somebody, but let's respect the facts.

Statistics don't tell the whole story, especially if Tinsley was playing hurt all of last season.

Sorry, but Sarunas is no where and will never be the player Tinsley is. Tinsley just has to show this season he will be durable for 65+ games.

Frank Slade

07-25-2006, 07:15 PM

Sorry, but Tinsley is no where and will never be the player Tinsley is. Tinsley just has to show this season he will be durable for 65+ games.

;) Now your making some sense.

DeS

07-25-2006, 07:26 PM

Statistics don't tell the whole story, especially if Tinsley was playing hurt all of last season.

Sorry, but Sarunas is no where and will never be the player Tinsley is. Tinsley just has to show this season he will be durable for 65+ games.
Please, don't use my quote out of context (especially, after I wrote "I'm not saying that he is better than somebody, but let's respect the facts."), I was just repling to the sentence "He passes to teammates when they are covered so well that they can't get control and TO the ball, his shot was second worst on the roster only Gill had a worse percentage".
And if statistics about shooting doesn't tell the story, we could subtract the numbers Tinsley played hurt, but we also should subtract the numbers Runi after hit the wall.

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 07:30 PM

Please, don't use my quote out of context (especially, after I wrote "I'm not saying that he is better than somebody, but let's respect the facts."), I was just repling to the sentence "He passes to teammates when they are covered so well that they can't get control and TO the ball, his shot was second worst on the roster only Gill had a worse percentage".
And if statistics about shooting doesn't tell the story, we could subtract the numbers Tinsley played hurt, but we also should subtract the numbers Runi after hit the wall.

The reason Sarunas "hit the wall" was because teams got scouting reports of Sarunas and started to pressure him up the court and not give him the open 3. Tinsley is also a much superior passer and the type of vision Tinsley has on the court is amazing.

No one is questioning how much of a superior talent Tinsley is to Sarunas, people are questioning his durability and Tinsley will prove them wrong this season.

Destined4Greatness

07-25-2006, 07:33 PM

No the fact that Runi hit a wall is the biggest knock on him. He is 30+ years of age. The odds that he will even develop the stamina to play from November to June(More likely May) are astounding. Plus the odds he can improve his game, and keep it improved while dealing with the grueling NBA schedule.

I think its more likely one of the guys(Hopefully me) on this board hooks up with Michelle Wie.

DeS

07-25-2006, 08:04 PM

The reason Sarunas "hit the wall" was because teams got scouting reports of Sarunas and started to pressure him up the court and not give him the open 3.
I doubt it. Most of his 3pt shots were quality shots (all the season). And even if so, this is a good possibility to spread the floor. And what about Tinsley - with such a poor 3pt percentage oponents even doesn't have to defend him at 3 and it limits his penetration possibilities.

Tinsley is also a much superior passer and the type of vision Tinsley has on the court is amazing.
No, Tinsley isn't much superior passer. Likely he is superior in the area now, but the difference isn't very big. If I remember correctly, they both are tied on seasons most assits (11(?)) per game and the AST/TO ratio is similar.

No one is questioning how much of a superior talent Tinsley is to Sarunas, people are questioning his durability and Tinsley will prove them wrong this season.
That would be fine!

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 08:11 PM

I doubt it. Most of his 3pt shots were quality shots (all the season). And even if so, this is a good possibility to spread the floor. And what about Tinsley - with such a poor 3pt percentage oponents even doesn't have to defend him at 3 and it limits his penetration possibilities.

You can't say you are right on both counts. Sarunas effect on spreading the floor was very minimal that his weaknesses on offense and bringing the ball up the court and being the worst defenders in the league took away from any of that "Reggie Miller" effect. Sarunas is just not as good as a shooter from the NBA 3. We aren't playing European here.

As for penetration possibilities, Tinsley is one of the best penetraters in the open court on offense in the NBA. His 3 point shooting and outside shooting has come a long way. When you are rusty and hurt, you don't shoot how you normally do. Unlike Tinsley, Sarunas has a chance to prove his game and failed last season.

No, Tinsley isn't much superior passer. Likely he is superior in the area now, but the difference isn't very big. If I remember correctly, they both are tied on seasons most assits (11(?)) per game and the AST/TO ratio is similar.

You Europeans like to rely on only statistics except to how the game is actually played. Tinsley just makes the game so much easier for his teammates and he doesn't need to learn to dribble the ball up the court. Saying everything you have said, you compare stats for an injured Tinsley to a healthy Sarunas and Tinsley still leads the mark.

I hope Sarunas has a good year at back-PG, but he will never be the starting PG of an NBA team that wants to make the playoffs.

DeS

07-25-2006, 08:11 PM

The odds that he will even develop the stamina to play from November to June(More likely May) are astounding. Plus the odds he can improve his game, and keep it improved while dealing with the grueling NBA schedule.
Come on - that's just a speculation. And this isn't the case, he is playing 35+ minutes all the season. I doubt one can get that tired after half season playing 15-20 minutes per game.

Robertmto

07-25-2006, 08:13 PM

I would start Greene over Saras. I havent seen much of Greene but from what I've heard / read he's good. I have seen Runi and I wouldnt start him if my life depended on it. How can the Pacers run an up tempo offense if three ppl have to stay in the backcourt and set up an obstacle course so Runi can get it upcourt.

SoupIsGood

07-25-2006, 08:14 PM

Well the JO/Al/Danny/Quis group is a perfect fit for Saras' skills. If he can take his game up to that of a NBA starter, Saras/Quis/Danny/Al/JO would be something to see.

And, yes, it's unlikely, but we've seen players make great and unlikely improvements in this league before. Besides, a lot of times it just has to do with being in a position to succeed. I won't count him out.

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 08:14 PM

I would start Greene over Saras. I havent seen much of Greene but from what I've heard / read he's good. I have seen Runi and I wouldnt start him if my life depended on it. How can the Pacers run an up tempo offense if three ppl have to stay in the backcourt and set up an obstacle course so Runi can get it upcourt.

LOL @ Obstacle Course. QFT.

SoupIsGood

07-25-2006, 08:16 PM

I would start Greene over Saras. I havent seen much of Greene but from what I've heard / read he's good. I have seen Runi and I wouldnt start him if my life depended on it.

Those that say things like this I think forget how good Saras looked early in the season. He's not the scrub that many seem to say he is.

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 08:17 PM

Those that say things like this I think forget how good Saras looked early in the season. He's not the scrub that many seem to say he is.

I think many people who played ball on a professional level can look pretty good when your defender doesn't guard you or consider you a threat on te open court.

Robertmto

07-25-2006, 08:18 PM

Those that say things like this I think forget how good Saras looked early in the season. He's not the scrub that many seem to say he is.

He disappeared. Consistency is key.

SoupIsGood

07-25-2006, 08:23 PM

He disappeared. Consistency is key.

He was a rookie. Not even Granger was consistent.
----------------------------------------------------------

I think many people who played ball on a professional level can look pretty good when your defender doesn't guard you or consider you a threat on te open court.

:confused:

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 08:27 PM

He was a rookie. Not even Granger was consistent.
----------------------------------------------------------

:confused:

I hate when people call Sarunas a rookie! He was a rookie but not a true rookie like other youngsters in the NBA. He is almost 30, isn't he? His game is not going to improve (if it all) like youngers in the NBA...30 is supposed to be when you are either at your peak or will be soon coming down from it...

bulldog

07-25-2006, 08:31 PM

I hate when people call Sarunas a rookie! He was a rookie but not a true rookie like other youngsters in the NBA. He is almost 30, isn't he? His game is not going to improve (if it all) like youngers in the NBA...30 is supposed to be when you are either at your peak or will be soon coming down from it...

Steve Nash

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 08:32 PM

Steve Nash

Steve Nash is MVP of the league. Sarunas=guy who might not be good enough to be our back-up PG. Steve Nash=many years experience in the NBA with different teams plus Steve Nash's game in the next few years will come down to earth too.

Ralph Snart

07-25-2006, 08:43 PM

The way I see it, the only direction Saras can go is up. He did have a few good games last season (vastly overshadowed by his poor games).

You can say whatever you want about him not being a rookie, but at the end of the day that's exactly what he was. Before last year he had never played in the league, and international players have a notorious habit of stinking the place up their first season.

I want him to suceed, but I want everyone on the team to suceed. Both of our point guards have major flaws (flaws that make them nearly untradeable), so we have to stick with what we have.

I honestly believe we'll see a much improved Sarunas this year. I also think (and hope) we'll see a much healthier Tinsley.

Jimmy

07-25-2006, 08:50 PM

I don't understand why people could be dissapointed with Sarunas. Sure he has trouble with his handles but he just spent 6 years in Europe playing slower ball. I am sure he isn't comfortable yet and now that aj is gone and sarunas is the primary back-up, he will know his role and feel more comfortable doing it. I think he just needs to get his confidence back up and he will be fine. Hopefully he'll find his shot again and prove to you nay-sayers he belongs in the NBA!

ARTESTINMYHEART

07-25-2006, 08:52 PM

I don't understand why people could be dissapointed with Sarunas. Sure he has trouble with his handles but he just spent 6 years in Europe playing slower ball. I am sure he isn't comfortable yet and now that aj is gone and sarunas is the primary back-up, he will know his role and feel more comfortable doing it. I think he just needs to get his confidence back up and he will be fine. Hopefully he'll find his shot again and prove to you nay-sayers he belongs in the NBA!

He actually was our primary back-up when A.J. was starting all those games. Sarunas=Larry Bird's mistake. Hopefully Sarunas proves me wrong and shows he can be a decent back-up PG but he just doesn't have the skills to be a starting PG on a good team in this league.

Frank Slade

07-25-2006, 09:15 PM

If you are forced to use Hyperboles to make your point, that's not a good sign.

circlecitysportsfan

07-25-2006, 10:11 PM

I don't understand why people could be dissapointed with Sarunas. Sure he has trouble with his handles but he just spent 6 years in Europe playing slower ball. I am sure he isn't comfortable yet and now that aj is gone and sarunas is the primary back-up, he will know his role and feel more comfortable doing it. I think he just needs to get his confidence back up and he will be fine. Hopefully he'll find his shot again and prove to you nay-sayers he belongs in the NBA!

Sorry but NBA pgs should not have trouble with their handle. He is not very good and if he starts we are going to suck.

Robertmto

07-25-2006, 10:14 PM

Wow a PG whose main difficulty is handles and shooting. What can he do as a PG?

Young

07-25-2006, 10:27 PM

Well first of Rick needs to make roles clear with this team. The roles have to be consistant and clear. You can't switch them up all the time. Saras is not a shooting guard, he is a point guard, let him play the point.

I don't care if Saras was 18 or 35 when he came into the league, when you are a rookie you are a rookie. Just because he has years of professional experience over in Europe doesn't mean that his experience amounts to much of any NBA experience. It doesn't. The NBA is different than other leagues, anyone who can't see that is blind.

I don't want Saras starting but unless we get rid of Tinsley Saras will start at some point and I do understand why Bird wants to give him a chance. Saras deserves a chance show what he can do and i'm willing to give Saras a chance to show that he is worth having on the roster.

But Rick has to make roles clear, yet he has to have players that make it easy to asign roles to.

Los Angeles

07-25-2006, 10:28 PM

Wow a PG whose main difficulty is handles and shooting. What can he do as a PG?
NO - these are his strengths.

His difficulties are keeping cool under pressure and physical stamina.

Last year, he was playing great until he became tired and started trying too hard. That;s when he started blowing breaks, getting trapped and hitting the front of the rim.

Naptown_Seth

07-25-2006, 11:55 PM

Steve Nash is MVP of the league. Sarunas=guy who might not be good enough to be our back-up PG. Steve Nash=many years experience in the NBA with different teams plus Steve Nash's game in the next few years will come down to earth too.
Um, the point was that he got to the point you suggest was where players stop improving, and then he took a big jump forward when he got to Phoenix.

Right situation, things start to click more for a guy, maybe something takes their confidence and understanding to a new level, and off they go.

Cabbages CAN have a better year, but I can see him struggling too. I'm right in the middle and think you can rely on Cabbages no more than you can rely on Tinsley's "health". Both might be really nice, both might make us pull our hair out again.

I don't think failure with either is such a forgone conclusion that it requires angry rants dripping with bitterness. Me, I'm hopeful and feel comfortable with that. I plan on being there at the home opener excited and happy.

NO - these are his strengths.Handles? Strength? Um, no Fn way. Not close even. He's OKAY with the ball, but has trouble protecting his dribble, certainly can't sneak it around or crossover people like Tinsley can.

SarJas' handles = Tinsley's 3 ball...the both sorta have it at times, but not really and you wouldn't call it a strength

SarJas has COURT VISION and good passing skills (meaning the physical act, the ability to make good on what you see, the ability to one hand bounce a zip on a dime to the open spot).
----------------------------------------------------------

The way I see it, the only direction Saras can go is up. He did have a few good games last season (vastly overshadowed by his poor games).

You can say whatever you want about him not being a rookie, but at the end of the day that's exactly what he was. Before last year he had never played in the league, and international players have a notorious habit of stinking the place up their first season.

I want him to suceed, but I want everyone on the team to suceed. Both of our point guards have major flaws (flaws that make them nearly untradeable), so we have to stick with what we have.

I honestly believe we'll see a much improved Sarunas this year. I also think (and hope) we'll see a much healthier Tinsley.
QFT I feel exactly the same way.

Jimmy

07-26-2006, 12:03 AM

Well first of Rick needs to make roles clear with this team. The roles have to be consistant and clear. You can't switch them up all the time. Saras is not a shooting guard, he is a point guard, let him play the point.

I don't care if Saras was 18 or 35 when he came into the league, when you are a rookie you are a rookie. Just because he has years of professional experience over in Europe doesn't mean that his experience amounts to much of any NBA experience. It doesn't. The NBA is different than other leagues, anyone who can't see that is blind.

I don't want Saras starting but unless we get rid of Tinsley Saras will start at some point and I do understand why Bird wants to give him a chance. Saras deserves a chance show what he can do and i'm willing to give Saras a chance to show that he is worth having on the roster.

But Rick has to make roles clear, yet he has to have players that make it easy to asign roles to.

I agree completely, that's what i was going for in my post. I feel if he knows his role he won't feel like if he has a bad game he's going to be benched. He needs to play through a couple bad games in my opinion.

SycamoreKen

07-26-2006, 12:34 AM

Could Saras be a Steve Kerr type of player? I didn't get to see him play much, so I'm just throwing that out there. Is he an older Beno Udrih?

Robertmto

07-26-2006, 01:29 AM

Could Saras be a Steve Kerr type of player? I didn't get to see him play much, so I'm just throwing that out there. Is he an older Beno Udrih?

Ummm he could play the minutes Kerr did.

Alpolloloco

07-26-2006, 03:27 AM

And perform better than Kerr did too!

Robertmto

07-26-2006, 03:30 AM

And perform better than Kerr did too!

:zip:

Jermaniac

07-26-2006, 05:29 AM

Tins is going to start and its clear as day, no need to talk about this. I wouldnt be suprised if DA took away all of his minutes as the back up to Tins.

SoupIsGood

07-26-2006, 08:28 AM

I think even more than his ball handleing, Saras needs to learn to be confident with the move he's making, and learn to use his strength to his advantage. He's knocked off balance or off path far too easily. Just solving this alone would make a world of difference IMO.

DisplacedKnick

07-26-2006, 08:56 AM

Well, for the most part last season Saras demonstrated that he's not an NBA-caliber PG. All it took was for teams to pressure him.

Unless he's raised his game in a huge way - which I don't expect from a 30-year-old - if he's starting the Pacers have huge problems. And based on Tinsley's injury history, he'll be starting a bunch of games.

That spells lottery.

Shamboubou

07-26-2006, 09:13 AM

Runi will be a lot better in a fast paced offense that it looks like that pacers are going to try and set up this offseason. He'll be able to get the ball down the court and make a great pass like we seen him do last season. When a team is in a transition defense they dont have time to set up on him like they do when they are in a set defense.

I thought that Runi did ok last year when he was playing consistantly. Once they started to cut his minutes I think he lost a bit of his rythem. The good thing is that he has seen what the NBA game is like now, he can take that to this offseason and improve on what he needs to get better at.

Give the guy a few years before you start acting like he's the worst player in the NBA.

btowncolt

07-26-2006, 09:16 AM

Give the guy a few years before you start acting like he's the worst player in the NBA.

While I didn't watch enough games to weigh in on this topic, I would like to point out that in a few years he'll be 33. That seems like a little past the point where he would be improving.

DisplacedKnick

07-26-2006, 09:30 AM

Give the guy a few years before you start acting like he's the worst player in the NBA.

He doesn't have a few years.

Doug

07-26-2006, 10:00 AM

While I didn't watch enough games to weigh in on this topic, I would like to point out that in a few years he'll be 33. That seems like a little past the point where he would be improving.

I'm 40 and I'm still improving.

But I'm not an NBA point guard.

There's a set-up in my post. Somebody add the punch line.

Unclebuck

07-26-2006, 10:03 AM

Could Saras be a Steve Kerr type of player? I didn't get to see him play much, so I'm just throwing that out there. Is he an older Beno Udrih?

Saras is a great passer within the halfcourt offense. He's can't start the offense because he can't dribble well enough to get into proper position. But put him off the ball and give him the ball within the offensive play and he can be a real asset. That is what the coahcing staff needs to be working on right now

Bball

07-26-2006, 10:55 AM

I'm 40 and I'm still improving.

But I'm not an NBA point guard.

But you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night....

-Bball

Destined4Greatness

07-26-2006, 10:59 AM

Bball wins this topic.

Jay Ohh

07-26-2006, 07:25 PM

Let's also discuss the lottery while we're at it. Because that's exactly where this team lands if he starts.

aceace

07-26-2006, 07:41 PM

Runi gets exposed badly against the quicker more defensive PG. I hope he comes back a better ballhandler. In reality he is a SG and should play the 2.

Destined4Greatness

07-26-2006, 07:51 PM

Runi gets exposed badly against the quicker more defensive PG. I hope he comes back a better ballhandler. In reality he is a SG and should play the 2.

I would almost rather let him screw the team over at Point than to listen to him whine about "Im a PG, not a shooting guard, I only suck because Carlisle isn't letting me play PG" Even though we all know he actually did play PG. As Tinsleys back up, and then when he got hurt he was AJ's backup. Unless somebody here wants to say that Jack played significant time at PG.

Young

07-26-2006, 07:57 PM

Runi gets exposed badly against the quicker more defensive PG. I hope he comes back a better ballhandler. In reality he is a SG and should play the 2.

Oh and he will play so much better being guarded by SGs? Players who will be bigger/longer than him and will be able to pressure his shots with ease. He should play the 2? Saras? The player who people say can't dribble because he can't handle the pressure? Yet he should play the 2, like you think players won't be able to pressure him then?

Sorry, I guess I think Saras will be fine at the point. Just give him playing time and make his role clear to him and he will be fine.

Destined4Greatness

07-26-2006, 08:04 PM

Oh and he will play so much better being guarded by SGs? Players who will be bigger/longer than him and will be able to pressure his shots with ease. He should play the 2? Saras? The player who people say can't dribble because he can't handle the pressure? Yet he should play the 2, like you think players won't be able to pressure him then?

Sorry, I guess I think Saras will be fine at the point. Just give him playing time and make his role clear to him and he will be fine.

How is he going to be fine at the point. Was he fine last year, NOPE. Do 31 year old typically improve, NOPE.

I guess the real question is, If a slow european that can't handle pressure cries about playing time, and nobody cares. Does he make a sound?

BlueNGold

07-26-2006, 08:19 PM

Runi gets exposed badly against the quicker more defensive PG. I hope he comes back a better ballhandler. In reality he is a SG and should play the 2.

All true, but he should never ever play the 2. If he cannot play point, he should leave the NBA.

...but I am not ready to write him off yet. I plan to give him another year. He lacks quickness and that will be next to impossible to change. However, I have seen relatively unathletic NBA players improve their defense considerably. He seems to be a worker and is an extreme competitor, so he will put in the effort to get better. The question is, where will he top out? BTW, just because he is 30 does not mean he cannot improve his game. If he were 5 years older, that would be true, but not at 30.

Young

07-26-2006, 08:54 PM

How is he going to be fine at the point. Was he fine last year, NOPE. Do 31 year old typically improve, NOPE.

How many 31 years old were rookies at age of 30?

One year of NBA ball and he can't improve? I'm not saying that he will be an all star but man he might not be as bad as most of you all think he is. Just give the man some playing time.

Maybe some of Sara's weaknesses will be covered up with Marquis. Marquis can handle the ball and such, he'll help Saras out in that department.

And i'm not saying I want him as the starter but rather I like it or not he will start some games for us unless we replace Tinsley.

LG33

07-26-2006, 08:59 PM

Remember when you guys all thought Anthony Johnson sucked? Or was I the only one?