February 3, 2011

"I wanted to be recognized as an actress, and the whole scandal and aftermath of the film turned me a little crazy and I had a breakdown. Now, though, I can look at the film and like my work in it.... I felt humiliated and to be honest, I felt a little raped, both by Marlon and by Bertolucci... After the scene, Marlon didn’t console me or apologize. Thankfully, there was just one take."

Just think--Roman Polanski did something very much like the butter scene for real with a 13 or 15 year old (I forget which) girl, then jumped bail before he could be sentenced for the rape and sexual abuse of a child. And he is a hero of Hollywood and of the lefties.

Shouting Thomas, why do you want to slag Maria Schneider? Seems to me you are reading your own issues into her life. (Which is, I suppose, another form of rape: Once again, she is not a human being but a thing to be used for one's own purposes.)

(Which is, I suppose, another form of rape: Once again, she is not a human being but a thing to be used for one's own purposes.)

Oh, go fuck yourself.

I am so tired of hearing the litany of the variety of rapes that I could puke.

We are in this world to serve.. to serve others and to serve at a job. When we do this, it's part of the deal that those who we serve see us as little more than the instrument that takes care of their needs.

This crap is the ultimate in spoiled brat shitheaded idiocy. This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder if I shouldn't go over to the side of Muslim men. Western men are idiots.

Getting the job may have had something to do with the fact her father was French actor Daniel Gelin - American audiences would know him from The Longest Day. What killed her career was the fact she felt obliged to advertise her bisexuality as often and as publicly as possible.

As for Brando, I recall Rod Steiger saying some things about him - that he was one of the most selfish, egocentric actors imaginable (tough, huh?) - that make me believe Mlle Schneider.

I wish more women would think of the consequences of the stupid things they do before they do them.

I mean, letting someone stick a bar of butter up her ass, on camera? How stupid is that? (Not as stupid as expecting people to respect her afterwards.) She can't blame men because, in her desire to be recognized as an actress, she revealed there's nothing between her ears. I'm with Shouting Thomas on this one:

She gives an added level of obscenity to the expression "having a buther face"....She seems to have had a troubled life, and I don't suppose having notoriety for that scene with Brando made it any easier. I read somewhere that the guy in Deliverance, the one in the rape scene, had a similar breakdown. Apparently you can only hear people scream "Squeel like a pig" at you in public places a finite number of times before you wig. out.....I don't know if there's any moral to all of this. Sometimes it's just the way the cards play out......Carrie Fisher said a fan once came up to her and said that he used to jerk off to her three times a day between the ages of fifteen and twenty five. Sometimes, movie stars have social difficulties that are not common to the rest of humanity. Offer her some sympathy.

When I finally got around to seeing LAST TANGO IN PARIS, I was like, This is the movie that Pauline Kael thought was so revolutionary, she likened its premiere to opening night of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring? Really? What I found myself watching was a boring, arty porno that didn't make much sense. Two people magically find each other and simultaneously agree to use each other for sex, more sex and only sex. In your dreams, pal.

Reminds me of a buddy in college, one random night, bringing a sleazy hussy home, who evidently was blocked with tampon ... he wangled the girl in his room then came back out and grabbed a bottle of Wesson oil from the kitchen, then went back in the room -- as we chuckled away. Thereafter, we often jocularly called him "Wes." He didn't like it, but we just said, "Tough f'n luck, we're calling you 'Wes.'"

I have never seen this movie and I had to research the details. Am I to understand, then, that there was an anal rape scene in the script and that somehow the idea of adding butter as the anal lubricant was spontaneously added at the time of filming, and what is upsetting is not the anal rape scene per se but the butter aspect?

Crack, no, I'm speaking as a volunteer choir member in an excellent traditional, mostly classical church choir directed by a choral conducting professor, with paid section leaders and many good amateurs. Since you are a professional musician, you're probably used to crabby directors, but they don't get better results from the rest of us (and we've had that kind, too). I'm talking about crankiness and hostility, not being demanding, which is a necessary part of good musical leadership.I (accidentally) had a volunteer choir director position many years ago in a small church. I wouldn't have had any singers at all if I had been mean to them. It also isn't appropriate for someone in a church leadership position.

Since you know ST, I'm sure you see more of his good side. He has some good points--but the hostility doesn't help his arguments.

Sometimes, movie stars have social difficulties that are not common to the rest of humanity. Offer her some sympathy.

One of the parts of the fame game that people outside of it do not see is this:

For every person that adores you, one person will hate your fucking guts. The amount of adulation you receive will be just about equal to the amount of venomous hatred to you receive. It's like an equal and opposite reaction.

It's part of the game. If you can't handle it, you've got no business being in the game. And, if you want to weep about it, you'd best go home to Bumfuck, Idaho where somebody wants to hear it.

I (accidentally) had a volunteer choir director position many years ago in a small church. I wouldn't have had any singers at all if I had been mean to them. It also isn't appropriate for someone in a church leadership position.

I'm not directing the choir at this moment. I'm being a cranky old fart on the internet.

I never saw the movie, but given its date it is almost certain that Maria actually looked like an adult woman. Back in those days, the Hideous Pedophilic Bald Eagle had yet to make its first foul appearance except perhaps among some fringe fetishists. Almost all women were of the full-flavor variety.

"Much like Schneider, Brando 'felt raped and humiliated' by the film and told Bertolucci, 'I was completely and utterly violated by you. I will never make another film like that.' Brando refused to speak to Bertolucci for fifteen years after wrapping production."

Apparantly, Schneider was "troubled". And in the 80s, there was a famous "incident" in Paris, where a German tourist in a restaurant, having no idea who this attractive baby-faced fraulein was - gave her his best come hither look and asked her if she would mind "passing the butter". As he table had none. She physically attacked him, attacked waiters trying to drag her off the guy. Was thrown out cursing about the time the photogs and press showed up.

I saw the movie, BTW, on some military base 20 years after it was released. A boring, god-awful art film.

LTIP is such a strange movie. IMO Brando's performance was much more vulnerable, naked, self-humiliating, open to ridicule than Schneider's. It might be a bad movie, but it's such an interesting performance. The fact that, as kcom points out, Brando also invoked the 'rape' metaphor (feeling 'violated' by his director) should make it clear that Schneider's remarks are primarily about the emotional & psychological complexities of acting/ performance, the fraught relationship & power dynamics between actors and actor/ director, not so much the boring topic of gender relations (as the usual knees jerked here).

Gotta say, some of the guys with the deep-seated woman issues here may not realize it, but they sound so much like the angry hysterical man-hating feminists they loathe (just roles reversed). Self-pity and rage, feeling victimized by an entire gender. Vituperate particular (wo)men in the appropriate circumstances, dudes & dudettes, not the entire opposite sex on every occasion for no good reason.

I wish more women would think of the consequences of the stupid things they do before they do them.

I mean, letting someone stick a bar of butter up her ass, on camera? How stupid is that? (Not as stupid as expecting people to respect her afterwards.) She can't blame men because, in her desire to be recognized as an actress, she revealed there's nothing between her ears. I'm with Shouting Thomas on this one:

Yes, it was about only to scenes.The Church wanted the film forbidden not for the sex but for blasphemy,In Venezuela, the film was forbidden so people went to Aruba and Curacao to watch itAnd it was common at the time: Equus with the bestiality. Deep Throat to years after, Barbarella before...Blue Velvet did not kill Rosellini´s carreer. Neither Klute Hanoi Jane´s .

What a vicious thing to say. She clearly was not raped. In the same interview she talks about how she enjoys watching her performance. Rape victims do not buy the DVD of their rape.

So it's a metaphor. But it's a very ugly metaphor. One that belittles actual rape victims, who suffer horribly violent crimes. And she also attacks, by name, two innocent men. She accuses them of "rape." She just throws that word out there. And she's having sex with one of them. That's just an unspeakably vile thing to say.

do you even have one ounce of compassion for the female gender?.

What about men who are falsely accused of rape? Any compassion for them?

For anyone interested, you can search the Videos section on Google for "Last Tango in Paris butter" and get a number of clips, most of them very short without much context. There was one longer one that seemed to be most or all of the whole scene but it was dubbed in Italian so I didn't know what they were saying.

why would she feel raped by Marlon? Weren't they improvising an unhealthy relationship based on sex and domination. I suppose Marlon should have felt violated because she shot him in the end of the movie "How dare she act like she's going to shoot me, we were friends!"It's a movie!I love how actresses gravitate to roles that make them show their naughty bits and then get all prudish that the world might view them sexually. You see that with a lot of the young actresses or the wholesome ones (like Meg Ryan). They want to show their "range" by acting in movies that make them become exhibitionists, then get embarassed that people see them naked and don't view them as the wholesome actress anymore.

Whoever called ST an "utter asshole" has to admit, after this woman's confession, it's better not to have a 'b' in there.

And to Whimsy:

Since you are a professional musician, you're probably used to crabby directors, but they don't get better results from the rest of us (and we've had that kind, too).

Bullshit. As you said, you're a volunteer at a little church, but in the big leagues - where spectacular displays are expected - passion/crankiness, whatever you want to call it, gets people to do things far beyond what you guys are shooting for. (You guys can pull all that be-nice-to-me-or-I-quit shit because what you're doing has no consequence for you or anyone else.) I know:

I don't think she was actually anally raped with butter. I think the character said they would use butter and then ACTED as if he was putting butter in her butt.As John Lovitz might say "It's ACTING".They don't show penetration, from what I remember. So maybe if there was a problem she or someone could have said, they didn't feel comfortable simulating anal sex with butter.But then again, wasn't the whole point of the movie to push the envelope sexually? Did none of the actors know what they were getting into? The movie was rated X after all (not XXX, so not hardcore).

In fairness to Schneider, the qualifiers she uses in her employment of the rape metaphor ("I felt humiliated and to be honest, I felt a little raped, both by Marlon & by Bertolucci"), as well as the larger context of her remarks (the fact that in retrospect she appreciates the film) indicate the clear intention and awareness that she's speaking figuratively. I find it very plausible-- and you might too, if you've seen the film-- that during filming & in the aftermath (especially given her experience of a "breakdown") she might very well have felt "a little raped". Brando used the same metaphor to describe his experience, which should tell you something. IMO Schneider's emphasis is on what she sincerely, subjectively, "felt"; she hardly asserts this as an objective description of 2 men's actions. She was being frank about her own psychological experience, as opposed to really accusatory toward others. Of course-- it's complicated; many shades of grey in the figurative (not legal) use of the "rape" trope.

She could have simply refused to do the scene. James Cavievel is a devout Catholic who has refused to do sex or nude scenes. In fact, for his role as Edmond Dantes in Count of Monte Cristo he told the director if he insisted that he do a sex scene then he'll need to find another actor for the role.

Evidently Ms. Schneider's principles were quite as rigid so I have a hard time sympathizing with her 'acting role'

But see, IMO I don't hear Schneider "bitching" or whining or asking for anyone's "sympathy" here. Obviously, in a sense, she knew what she was getting into, as an actor-- knowingly taking a big psychological/ emotional risk (and the point of risk is that you're consenting in advance to something largely unknown, to a great extent not in your control). There's a dissonance, incommensurability, between the categories of judgment used by many against her here & her own ambivalence toward her practice & experience on this particular film. "She should've known" or "she asked for it" seems somehow irrelevant-- especially because, in the end, I don't hear her *blaming* anyone here (especially if she was proud of the film!).

There's some relation between this & my impression of certain moralistic comments I've read here in the past re (say) extreme skiers or sailors or sportsmen who've come to an unfortunate end. It's not that the impulse behind these judgments is invalid, exactly, but that certain categories of judgment-- especially those which take the form of something like "hypocrisy" (they should've known, they asked for it, they have no right to our pity or sympathy etc.)-- completely miss the mark. Because these judgments are directed at individuals who did know, did ask for it (in the sense: did knowingly take a risk), but had aims (e.g. as artists or sportsmen or adventurers) that transcended that possible loss/ danger. I can still deeply empathize with these individuals, even if their misfortune was something they knowingly risked. In some ways-- taken to its ultimate extent-- isn't this the point of classical tragedy? And there's a lot to be said for risk-takers, in every form (even something as apparently "superficial" as acting).

"Did that turn out to be true? Haven't seen any pictures of her as an old lady."

There is a photo of her from 2010, wearing a French cultural medal that she had just been awarded. The luscious girl of the movie is gone, except for hint of her former looks in the corners of her eyes and her furry eyebrows. Her hair is frizzy and gray. No makeup. She looks a bit wistful and lost. Obviously she is ill, and dying.

Just as an aside, how often do actors in a sex scene actually have penetrative sex? If you get an actor and actress together who are freaky, slutty, and/or have delusions of artistic grandeur, do they decide to get it on even if it's supposed to be faked? Anyone know?

I suspect it is mostly simulated, but every once in a while you get one like "Brown Bunny" or "Nine Songs" where it's plainly the real thing.