Pedro was slower than Lewis, that's why he was hired as the test driver and not the race driver. It's a sport about speed.

Franco set Spain back in the same way that a totalitarian regime set half of Germany back - in 4 decades the same people went from making Mercs and BMW's in the democratic half to making Trabants in the totalitarian half. That takes a long time to recover from.

That affects national self-confidence, obviously, and we see even on here that the more confident nations are less desperate about their success in F1.

And for sure it's completely desperate to be hating Hamilton because you didn't have TWO Spaniards racing at McLaren

I don't know about that, British journalist seemed pretty desperate in 2007 despite being in a high horse from a powerful and confident nation.

Pedro was slower than Lewis, that's why he was hired as the test driver and not the race driver. It's a sport about speed.

Franco set Spain back in the same way that a totalitarian regime set half of Germany back - in 4 decades the same people went from making Mercs and BMW's in the democratic half to making Trabants in the totalitarian half. That takes a long time to recover from.

That affects national self-confidence, obviously, and we see even on here that the more confident nations are less desperate about their success in F1.

And for sure it's completely desperate to be hating Hamilton because you didn't have TWO Spaniards racing at McLaren

Now please undersquare, don't ramble on the state of things in other countries - which you obviously have absolutely no idea about. It's patronizing and disrespectful. I fail to see that Spanish people should be more nationalistic than any other people. Have you not seen the German websites? Not to mention the euforistic reactions here in Sweden when it was rumoured that Marcus Ericsson maybe had got the 3rd seat at Mercedes (totally wrong, but still)

It's perfectly natural to support home drivers and I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with it. One might discuss PdlR vs Hamilton, but please do so without dragging Franco into the picture. It's embarrassing.

Now please undersquare, don't ramble on the state of things in other countries - which you obviously have absolutely no idea about. It's patronizing and disrespectful. I fail to see that Spanish people should be more nationalistic than any other people. Have you not seen the German websites? Not to mention the euforistic reactions here in Sweden when it was rumoured that Marcus Ericsson maybe had got the 3rd seat at Mercedes (totally wrong, but still)

It's perfectly natural to support home drivers and I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with it. One might discuss PdlR vs Hamilton, but please do so without dragging Franco into the picture. It's embarrassing.

I have to agree with your last paragraph. I don't see anything wrong, in principle, in supporting one's fellow nationals. But the nature of that support often leaves a lot to be desired, particularly the denigrating of other drivers, supporters and even entire nations.If people were to hesitate and ask themselves, "Why am I mentioning nationality?" before posting then the debates here would be far more likely to remain civil and the moderators would be doing far less deleting, locking and banning. NB, if one finds oneself answering the question above with "Because he started it, I am just replying in kind" then one is putting oneself equally in the wrong.That's not to say that some interesting points can't be made about cultural differences and their influences on motor-racing. If someone wants to debate such things in The Paddock Club, I will drop by.

So, de la Rosa. He's earned his return to Formula One and he deserves it. I hope the season goes well for him.

Now please undersquare, don't ramble on the state of things in other countries - which you obviously have absolutely no idea about. It's patronizing and disrespectful. I fail to see that Spanish people should be more nationalistic than any other people. Have you not seen the German websites? Not to mention the euforistic reactions here in Sweden when it was rumoured that Marcus Ericsson maybe had got the 3rd seat at Mercedes (totally wrong, but still)

It's perfectly natural to support home drivers and I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with it. One might discuss PdlR vs Hamilton, but please do so without dragging Franco into the picture. It's embarrassing.

Well standard defense is to ignore differences of degree and pretend every example is equal . Of course we all like to support our national drivers, but like anything it can be taken too far. This is an F1 forum, a sports forum, and so when people show they are only interested in their national pride and not in the sporting competition then obviously they're going to be challenged.

A bit of historical perspective is quite helpful for me. Otherwise a group of people hating a driver because he was chosen instead of their countryman would seem even more weird.

Well standard defense is to ignore differences of degree and pretend every example is equal . Of course we all like to support our national drivers, but like anything it can be taken too far. This is an F1 forum, a sports forum, and so when people show they are only interested in their national pride and not in the sporting competition then obviously they're going to be challenged.

A bit of historical perspective is quite helpful for me. Otherwise a group of people hating a driver because he was chosen instead of their countryman would seem even more weird.

I don't want to hijack the topic, but there are a few things that must be answered.

Wanting a Spanish pair irrespective of talent is really extreme nationalism. In the context of recent history and the effect of the Franco decades then it's understandable, but you can't expect anyone else to agree with you. Very greedy

Franco is one of the most hated people in Spain (probably the most). I have my own opinion on this subject, but the fact is that the people hate him. Everything related with Spanish nationalism is seen under a suspicious light here in Spain, because it's automatically related with Franco. In the other hand, there are several regionalist/independentist movements. So "the effect of the Franco decades" thing is mostly laughable.

Franco set Spain back in the same way that a totalitarian regime set half of Germany back - in 4 decades the same people went from making Mercs and BMW's in the democratic half to making Trabants in the totalitarian half. That takes a long time to recover from.

This statement is even worse than the first one. Franco didn't set Spain back in the way the GDR government did to East Germany. In Spain, people weren't building cars at all in 1939 -they were doing so in 1975. In 1975, people in Spain were richer than at any point before, and in the 1960-75 period Spain's economic growth was 2nd (only to Japan) among the OECD countries. Those are the facts, and that's why your whole way of thinking is wrong.

Of course, you can very well argue that Spain developed in spite of Franco's regime, that the whole of Europe greatly developed during that period, and that Spain only started to develop when Franco renounced to his disastrous autarkic policies, but that just doesn't belong here. What I mean is that you shouldn't talk about things you have no idea.

And to fully discredit those "Spanish nationalism" prejudices: I also fail to understand Sauber's reasons to hire PDLR, and fully understand why McLaren chose Hamilton over him. Things went very wrong in 2007, and Ron Dennis mismanaged the situation, but that has nothing to do with his election of Hamilton over De la Rosa, unless you want Dennis to be able to see the future...

But I'm very happy of having Pedro in the grid next year (the first full F1 race I saw was the 1999 Australian, and I was cheering every time he got a point...). I'm really hoping all the best for him, but sincerely I think he will just do a Wurz. I will be very happy if he has a great season, because I really want him to do well.

I don't want to hijack the topic, but there are a few things that must be answered.

Franco is one of the most hated people in Spain (probably the most). I have my own opinion on this subject, but the fact is that the people hate him. Everything related with Spanish nationalism is seen under a suspicious light here in Spain, because it's automatically related with Franco. In the other hand, there are several regionalist/independentist movements. So "the effect of the Franco decades" thing is mostly laughable.

This statement is even worse than the first one. Franco didn't set Spain back in the way the GDR government did to East Germany. In Spain, people weren't building cars at all in 1939 -they were doing so in 1975. In 1975, people in Spain were richer than at any point before, and in the 1960-75 period Spain's economic growth was 2nd (only to Japan) among the OECD countries. Those are the facts, and that's why your whole way of thinking is wrong.

Of course, you can very well argue that Spain developed in spite of Franco's regime, that the whole of Europe greatly developed during that period, and that Spain only started to develop when Franco renounced to his disastrous autarkic policies, but that just doesn't belong here. What I mean is that you shouldn't talk about things you have no idea.

And to fully discredit those "Spanish nationalism" prejudices: I also fail to understand Sauber's reasons to hire PDLR, and fully understand why McLaren chose Hamilton over him. Things went very wrong in 2007, and Ron Dennis mismanaged the situation, but that has nothing to do with his election of Hamilton over De la Rosa, unless you want Dennis to be able to see the future...

But I'm very happy of having Pedro in the grid next year (the first full F1 race I saw was the 1999 Australian, and I was cheering every time he got a point...). I'm really hoping all the best for him, but sincerely I think he will just do a Wurz. I will be very happy if he has a great season, because I really want him to do well.

Sorry for the off-topic, guys...

Well as usual it's more or less impossible to get a contentious subject discussed properly, people start to react and then don't really read either the whole post or the discussion it developed from.

I know you as a quality poster Ferrim and if all Spanish members were like you there would be nothing to explain. As it is though Nadsat posted that some Spanish 'fans' started hating Hamilton because he and not Pedro was chosen as Fernando's temmate for 07. For me that is quite extreme and so I mentioned the Franco regime as part of the explanation.

That has nothing to do with how popular Franco is. It is simply a matter of confidence IMO. It is arguable how far the last half of the Franco regime made up for what went before, the isolation and so on, but even at the end according to Wikipedia "at the heyday of the Miracle, 1974, Spanish income per capita peaked at 79 percent of the Western European average, only to be reached again 25 years later, in 1999."

Anyway this is context for the discussion of Pedro, and for me helps explain the extremism of some Spanish members here. Obviously there are many genuine Spanish members to whom this doesn't apply. Also I like Pedro and as posted I'm glad for him. Also as posted I respect Fernando as a driver. I'm not even slightly anti-Spanish. If there's some other explanation for the Armada here then let's hear it .

Meanwhile Pedro will be much better appreciated with reasonable support, such as he's evidently getting from F1 fans of all varieties. He's an exceptionally good guy, just not the fastest.

Well standard defense is to ignore differences of degree and pretend every example is equal . Of course we all like to support our national drivers, but like anything it can be taken too far. This is an F1 forum, a sports forum, and so when people show they are only interested in their national pride and not in the sporting competition then obviously they're going to be challenged.

A bit of historical perspective is quite helpful for me. Otherwise a group of people hating a driver because he was chosen instead of their countryman would seem even more weird.

Don't be silly. You haven't challenged any opinons whatsoever. You have brought up a national aspect, and a long gone dictator to "explain" in a derogatory, patronizing way why Spanish people support Spansh drivers. It's about as ignorant and pathetic as claiming German people are the way they are because of Hitler.

Discussing why Hamilton deserved the spot at McLaren more than PdlR regardless of which country the drivers respectively AND the posters come from is challenging an opinion. You have done nothing of the sort.

A bit of historical perspective is helpful - for what exactly? To label people with views different from your own as "suffering" from a long gone dictatorship? As you yourself state, this is a F1 forum, a sports forum. Let's keep it at that.

Nice guy, I'll cheer if he does well, but I fear he's too slow. No doubt his feedback will be valuable to a new team.

Exactly the way I see it I think Sauber will gain a great deal from his development experience which they will need, F1 is going to tougher than ever next year, I wish good luck to both De La Rosa and Peter Sauber.

Just think that an Alonso-De la Rosa team would have been: McLaren World Champion Constructor, Alonso World Champion, De la Rosa probably sub-champion.

Instead that, you have that in 2007 McLaren, being the best team, got... nothing.

Hindsight is everything. At the time Ron Dennis had to choose, between a 22 yo who had just hammered every single junior series in unprecedented dominant fashion (at least at GP2 level), and a 35 yo who had unspectacularly followed Raikkonen at some 3 tenths per lap the previous year. That wasn't an 100% clear cut decision but it looked very sensible when Hamilton went into the first few races and matched Alonso straight away, something De La Rosa could never dream of. That it backfired lately was only the result of very particular factors and mismanagement at several levels, but you've got to be kidding me if you think De La Rosa was the better driver of the 2. In fact you could very well say it was a good decision to appoint Hamilton, it gave them many wins in 2007, a championship in 2008 and a top driver for the future.

To Undersquare: the reason the spanish are so desperate for success in F1 is simply because they haven't had success in F1 (before Alonso), not because of Franco or any other dumb patronising rubbish like that. I can tell you the exact same thing would've happened here in Portugal, and wouldn't have any connection whatsoever to repressed nationalism of Salazar.

As for Pedro, he is not a bad driver, he was a Formula 1 level talent, but I'm afraid in terms of value behind the wheel, giving him the seat wasn't a very good call by Sauber. He has a great reputation as a tester, as a technically savy driver, but what about pace? He was never exceptionally quick and the age won't have done good to that. I'm afraid Kobayashi-de la Rosa is a major step down from Heidfeld-Kubica.

Don't be silly. You haven't challenged any opinons whatsoever. You have brought up a national aspect, and a long gone dictator to "explain" in a derogatory, patronizing way why Spanish people support Spansh drivers. It's about as ignorant and pathetic as claiming German people are the way they are because of Hitler.

Discussing why Hamilton deserved the spot at McLaren more than PdlR regardless of which country the drivers respectively AND the posters come from is challenging an opinion. You have done nothing of the sort.

A bit of historical perspective is helpful - for what exactly? To label people with views different from your own as "suffering" from a long gone dictatorship? As you yourself state, this is a F1 forum, a sports forum. Let's keep it at that.

I don't think other nationals need you to be standing up for them, that is patronising. It's not at all derogatory to refer to something that was after all simply imposed on the population without their consent.

Pedro doesn't need that kind of mindless nationalistic support, that was my point. It's really excessive. If all the individuals had had a different national history, then maybe things would be a bit more balanced. There are reason why some countries are richer and more confident than others, beyond the quality of the individual citizens, and that is where history come in. I suppose I was silly to have raised it, I'll grant you. But frankly someone arguing McLaren should have chosen Pedro over Lewis, and the reason they gave for the reaction to Lewis, needed an explanation.

@ paranoik0, well I wouldn't like to guess about Portugal but if for example Fernando and Pedro had been Swiss or Japanese, what would we have expected? Great excitement, but not hatred I think.

I don't think other nationals need you to be standing up for them, that is patronising. It's not at all derogatory to refer to something that was after all simply imposed on the population without their consent.

Pedro doesn't need that kind of mindless nationalistic support, that was my point. It's really excessive. If all the individuals had had a different national history, then maybe things would be a bit more balanced. There are reason why some countries are richer and more confident than others, beyond the quality of the individual citizens, and that is where history come in. I suppose I was silly to have raised it, I'll grant you. But frankly someone arguing McLaren should have chosen Pedro over Lewis, and the reason they gave for the reaction to Lewis, needed an explanation.

@ paranoik0, well I wouldn't like to guess about Portugal but if for example Fernando and Pedro had been Swiss or Japanese, what would we have expected? Great excitement, but not hatred I think.

You've missed my point completely. I'm not standing up for Spain as such - I'm pretty sure they can do it themselves.

I object to the idea of bringing up any person's nationality and past history and use it as a dismissal of their opinions.

I have to agree with your last paragraph. I don't see anything wrong, in principle, in supporting one's fellow nationals. But the nature of that support often leaves a lot to be desired, particularly the denigrating of other drivers, supporters and even entire nations.If people were to hesitate and ask themselves, "Why am I mentioning nationality?" before posting then the debates here would be far more likely to remain civil and the moderators would be doing far less deleting, locking and banning. NB, if one finds oneself answering the question above with "Because he started it, I am just replying in kind" then one is putting oneself equally in the wrong.That's not to say that some interesting points can't be made about cultural differences and their influences on motor-racing. If someone wants to debate such things in The Paddock Club, I will drop by.

So, de la Rosa. He's earned his return to Formula One and he deserves it. I hope the season goes well for him.

Back to Pedro. He's deserved his seat and I think he'll do well. He wasn't THAT far behind Kimi in 2006 (19pts to 26) and he had a great fight with MS in Hungary, forcing MS to cut every chicane on the track (slightly exaggerated) to keep Pedro behind him. And we all remember Bahrain 2005 where his overtakings should have made Kobayashi envious.

His main problem might be qualy - at least in 2006 he himself confessed that he wasn't quick enough over a single lap. Hopefully he can improve that.

Back to Pedro. He's deserved his seat and I think he'll do well. He wasn't THAT far behind Kimi in 2006 (19pts to 26) and he had a great fight with MS in Hungary, forcing MS to cut every chicane on the track (slightly exaggerated) to keep Pedro behind him. And we all remember Bahrain 2005 where his overtakings should have made Kobayashi envious.

His main problem might be qualy - at least in 2006 he himself confessed that he wasn't quick enough over a single lap. Hopefully he can improve that.

+1

PD: happy to read a post about F1 and drivers. Thank you for coming back on topic

Back to Pedro. He's deserved his seat and I think he'll do well. He wasn't THAT far behind Kimi in 2006 (19pts to 26) and he had a great fight with MS in Hungary, forcing MS to cut every chicane on the track (slightly exaggerated) to keep Pedro behind him. And we all remember Bahrain 2005 where his overtakings should have made Kobayashi envious.

His main problem might be qualy - at least in 2006 he himself confessed that he wasn't quick enough over a single lap. Hopefully he can improve that.

I didn't intent to cause you any offense. My post wasn't aiming any criticism at yours, I thought it made a good 'springboard' from which I could commence my own. Nor do I claim to be any less guilty of the faults I complain about.

Returning to the thread topic:I think Sauber and Williams have the same driver strategy this year, balancing a (possibly very quick) rookie with an older, experienced, reliable driver.

Undersquare: My point was "Just think that an Alonso-De la Rosa team would have been: McLaren World Champion Constructor, Alonso World Champion, De la Rosa probably sub-champion.

Instead that, you have that in 2007 McLaren, being the best team, got... nothing".

For Spanish fans (nothing to do with extreme nationalism or Franco's legacy), Pedro de la Rosa is one of the best TV commentators in F1 and a true gentleman. He has the symphathy, for his personality and style, that few F1 drivers have. When Montoya left the team, Pedro de la Rosa made Spanish fans to support him as they did with Fernando Alonso. During the 2007 pre-season, everyone was talking about the possibilty of a Alonso-De la Rosa team, with a clear aim: McLaren to be Constructor Worldchampionship, Alonso fighting for the WCD and De la Rosa helping him and winning races. His aspiration was helping Alonso and McLaren to win, and to win he himself at any possible chance. He wouldn't ever try to betray Alonso or to become an enemy at home. Hamilton, by that time, in the other hand, was an incognita, someone completly unknown. When Hamilton was announced as the other driver, there was a big disappointment for the Spanish fans. But when Hamilton started triggering investigations against Alonso and all the blah blah blah we all know, the disappointment turned into a 'healthy' hostility. People disliked him. That's all. They all thought: With Pedro, this wouldn't have happened. That was my point, and as I said before, nothing to do with extreme nationalism. We Spaniards like Alonso and Pedro, but also Raikkonen, Schumacher or Fisichella. Or Kubica o Kovalainen. Nothing wrong with that.

And to put an end to the nationalism issue: you must know that the Spanish anthem has no lyrics because Spaniards reject to sing the lyrics Franco ordered to be written in the anthem. So you'll never hear Spanish sportments singing the lyrics of the anthem because, funny, there are no lyrics: We sing: "Chinda, chinda, ta ta ta ta ta chinda, chinda, ta,ta ta"... That speak volumes, I think, about the Spanish nationalism...

I want to say too that my intention was not at any moment to sound as Spaniard fanatic or so. I don't like Hamilton, because I don't like his way of talking and his attitude. But I think he's a really good driver. It doesn't make him a bad guy. My point was that, while British Press, for example, in 2007, was considering him as the new Shumacher or the new Ayrton Senna, the Spanish fans (me included) thought that he and the poor attitude of Ron Dennis, ruined a supposed glorious season for McLaren.

But everytime you have two points of view: those ones who thought that Hamilton was the most brilliant driver in the F1 history (English fans) and those ones who thought that giving Hamilton a car was a mistake in his first year because, instead learning and helping the team, he just said "Me, me, me and only me". And the British idea of the "rookie beating his 2 WDC team mate", which is repeated day in day out here, with the famous "6th seconds" et all...

Just makes me think...

BBC portrayed Hamilton as the new Senna (If we talk about nationalism), while Spanish Press portrayed Hamilton as the guy who impeded Alonso to become a 3WDC. I remember BBC commentators saying that Alonso was the "Arch-enemy of Lewis Hamilton".

Talking about nationalism... I think that British Press was way too more nationalistic in those days than Spanish press.

I want to say too that my intention was not at any moment to sound as Spaniard fanatic or so. I don't like Hamilton, because I don't like his way of talking and his attitude. But I think he's a really good driver. It doesn't make him a bad guy. My point was that, while British Press, for example, in 2007, was considering him as the new Shumacher or the new Ayrton Senna, the Spanish fans (me included) thought that he and the poor attitude of Ron Dennis, ruined a supposed glorious season for McLaren.

But everytime you have two points of view: those ones who thought that Hamilton was the most brilliant driver in the F1 history (English fans) and those ones who thought that giving Hamilton a car was a mistake in his first year because, instead learning and helping the team, he just said "Me, me, me and only me". And the British idea of the "rookie beating his 2 WDC team mate", which is repeated day in day out here, with the famous "6th seconds" et all...

BBC portrayed Hamilton as the new Senna (If we talk about nationalism), while Spanish Press portrayed Hamilton as the guy who impeded Alonso to become a 3WDC. I remember BBC commentators saying that Alonso was the "Arch-enemy of Lewis Hamilton".

Talking about nationalism... I think that British Press was way too more nationalistic in those days than Spanish press.

well, you make it sound as they are both as bad as each other

Really, the long and short of your argument is, Rosa should have being chosen to be Alonso's patsey, but f Lewis was chosen should not have being given a equal chance to compete and should have just taken on a Piquet/Fisi role and just be there to support Alonso, and for this you somehow think Lewis was "me, me, me"?

I want to say too that my intention was not at any moment to sound as Spaniard fanatic or so. I don't like Hamilton, because I don't like his way of talking and his attitude. But I think he's a really good driver. It doesn't make him a bad guy. My point was that, while British Press, for example, in 2007, was considering him as the new Shumacher or the new Ayrton Senna, the Spanish fans (me included) thought that he and the poor attitude of Ron Dennis, ruined a supposed glorious season for McLaren.

But everytime you have two points of view: those ones who thought that Hamilton was the most brilliant driver in the F1 history (English fans) and those ones who thought that giving Hamilton a car was a mistake in his first year because, instead learning and helping the team, he just said "Me, me, me and only me". And the British idea of the "rookie beating his 2 WDC team mate", which is repeated day in day out here, with the famous "6th seconds" et all...

Just makes me think...

BBC portrayed Hamilton as the new Senna (If we talk about nationalism), while Spanish Press portrayed Hamilton as the guy who impeded Alonso to become a 3WDC. I remember BBC commentators saying that Alonso was the "Arch-enemy of Lewis Hamilton".

Talking about nationalism... I think that British Press was way too more nationalistic in those days than Spanish press.

Talking about nationalism... I think that British Press was way too more nationalistic in those days than Spanish press.

Yeah, but that's just their way of it. When it was first suggested that Jenson Button could go to McLaren and Mercedes would take on Nick Heidfeld, the British press were chomping at the bit. They wanted it to happen, and they kept painting it all as a re-run of World War II. While they stopped short of referring to everyone as tommies and krauts, they were desperate to see it happen despite the fact that Britain won World War II. Just wait until the season begins; I bet we're going to get references to blitzkreigs and setting Europe ablaze.

The Spanish press can be just as bad. They kept running stories that Alonso was going to Ferrari and that he had signed a contract as early as Bahrain. While Alonso did eventually go there, the reactions from some of the Spanish journalists were ridiculously unprofessional. Lobato never said it outright, but he basically credited himself with getting Alonso into Ferrari, implying that if it weren't for his efforts and those of the Spanish media, Alonso would be stuck at Renault. Even now, there's a chance Andy Soucek could go to Campos. The Spanish press are all over it because even though he'll suck, he's a Spaniard.

And they're not the only ones. You should hear some of the utter crap the Australian commentators come up with. If there's a Red Bull on-screen and the BBC doesn't talk about Mark Webber, they'll cut the commentary off and do it themselves, even when the on-screen graphics show the car as being Vettel. When Adrian Sutil impeded Mark Webber in Bahrain qualifying, the commentators were so incensed at it that they basically called for Sutil to be stripped of his racing licence because he denied Webber a certain victory. And that's just a few of their ridculous moments; I compiled a list of things they had done in 2009 on another forum and gave up after a few races because I couldn't keep track of their idiocy.

No matter where you go, you're going to find nationalistic press. They are, after all, reporting on their drivers for home audiences. And you kind of have to understand that. It's when journalists lose their professionalism that it all becomes a problem.

Lobato never said it outright, but he basically credited himself with getting Alonso into Ferrari, implying that if it weren't for his efforts and those of the Spanish media, Alonso would be stuck at Renault.

No matter how much you read between lines, Lobato has never suggested anything like that, sorry but it's just an invention.

As or Marca on the other hand I don't know, but then again I don't read As or Marca.

I seem to recall something about all of Spain being behind Alonso and him having certain close friends to help him make his decisions or something like that. Basically, Lobato was talking about himself. Whatever, it was months ago; he printed it before Alonso was even confirmed by Ferrari.

I seem to recall something about all of Spain being behind Alonso and him having certain close friends to help him make his decisions or something like that. Basically, Lobato was talking about himself. Whatever, it was months ago; he printed it before Alonso was even confirmed by Ferrari.

In general most of Spain support Alonso, and I suppose his close friends and family help him with decissions, just like any person, so both things are true. But to infer anything like that from there...

Lobato likes topaint himself as being one of Alonso's confidantes. I know he went to Alonso's wedding, but given his sheer unreliability - reporting Alonso as having signed to Ferrari several times before it happened - and the way all of Spain gets behind him, I wouldn't put it past Lobato to embellish his relationship with Alonso to give him more readers. However, he seemsto have convinced himself that he and Alonso are besties.

You've missed my point completely. I'm not standing up for Spain as such - I'm pretty sure they can do it themselves.

I object to the idea of bringing up any person's nationality and past history and use it as a dismissal of their opinions.

You mean as the Spanish press did when they claimed that Ron Dennis was bound to side with Hamilton because he was English? 2007 saw the Spanish press incite a hate campaign against McLaren and Hamilton, it was simply disgraceful. Anyway, it's also off-topic...

Lobato likes topaint himself as being one of Alonso's confidantes. I know he went to Alonso's wedding, but given his sheer unreliability - reporting Alonso as having signed to Ferrari several times before it happened - and the way all of Spain gets behind him, I wouldn't put it past Lobato to embellish his relationship with Alonso to give him more readers. However, he seemsto have convinced himself that he and Alonso are besties.

Yes both are friends.

But you are inventing things once again. When did Lobato report that Alonso has signed to Ferrari before it happened? All that he has been saying the last 2 or 3 years is that he was convinced Alonso would end up in Ferrari. And everytime he said it, he emphasized it was just his opinion. It ended up being true, didn't it?

As they are friends, Lobato does say he knows things that he can't tell. Given their friendship, as you said Alonso invited him to his wedding for example, I don't see why would that be untrue, and he has never used it to get more readers. He does have inside info, for example he described how his helmet would be before it was made public, and journos from other countries contact him to get Alonso related info. Again I don't see what's wrong with that, like journos would also contact Heikki Kulta for Finish drivers info.

You mean as the Spanish press did when they claimed that Ron Dennis was bound to side with Hamilton because he was English? 2007 saw the Spanish press incite a hate campaign against McLaren and Hamilton, it was simply disgraceful. Anyway, it's also off-topic...

No offense Orin, but exactly how much Spanish do you know? How much Spanish press have you actually read?

I also remember - as I happen to know English and can read the English press for myself - that it wasn't all that nice to Alonso either.

No offense Orin, but exactly how much Spanish do you know? How much Spanish press have you actually read?

I also remember - as I happen to know English and can read the English press for myself - that it wasn't all that nice to Alonso either.

My opinion was informed by the Spanish posters flooding these boards back then, the frequent use of the adjective 'ugly' to describe Hamilton, the appalling websites that were linked to, the feverish stories of newspaper sellers (remember?) howling in anguish at Hamilton. Were English papers as bad? Not the ones I read, but perhaps I read the 'wrong' ones - however [juding by this forum] they singularly failed to provoke the same level of hysteria.

We can however agree on that this is off-topic.

Agreed. Back to PDLR who is widely regarded as one of the nicest people in the sport.

My opinion was informed by the Spanish posters flooding these boards back then, the frequent use of the adjective 'ugly' to describe Hamilton, the appalling websites that were linked to, the feverish stories of newspaper sellers (remember?) howling in anguish at Hamilton. Were English papers as bad? Not the ones I read, but perhaps I read the 'wrong' ones - however [juding by this forum] they singularly failed to provoke the same level of hysteria.

You cannot judge Spanish press by the people posting here and not by the titbits (carefully chosen) that gets translated into English. British press might have a different approach though, their campaigns are based on snide remarks, half-spoken implications and the use of more derogatory words than necessary (IE "whining" instead of "complaining").

That said, of course it's not only British press and/or Spanish press. I mean, look at this:

There's a REASON for Alonso looking sad and worried, Vettel triumphant and MS just smiling to kingdom come. There's also a reason for them choosing Alonso looking sad and worried instead of a pic of Hamilton - who's as much a threat to the German hegemony as Alonso, if not more. German press campaign against Alonso is worse than the British has ever been, btw. But then again he beat their precious MS so it's understandable.

And what do I want to tell with all these ramblings? Probably that we all should do better by NOT reading any press at all... (and I also want peace on earth, fluffy lambs grazing in the meadows and flying pink ponies)

This is my last post on this off-topic subject (sorry mods!)

Back to Pedro de la Rosa, but unfortunately it seems we can all agree that he's on of the nicest guys in the paddock and we all wish him well - so there's probably not going to be any debate on this particular subject at all...

There's a REASON for Alonso looking sad and worried, Vettel triumphant and MS just smiling to kingdom come. There's also a reason for them choosing Alonso looking sad and worried instead of a pic of Hamilton - who's as much a threat to the German hegemony as Alonso, if not more. German press campaign against Alonso is worse than the British has ever been, btw. But then again he beat their precious MS so it's understandable.;)

You mean Christian "Alonso fan" Danner, for example?;)

BTW, there is no "campaign" against Alonso in the German media. Just by Bild (and even that is not a "campaign", as far as I can see it they don't bother more about him than about any other non-German driver. Now they have put a bad shot of him on that pic, big deal - in other articles they hype up Hamilton or even Button as main threats and "enemies". In this particular article they took an Alonso pic, because it was him who made a comment on expecting the Merc-Schum combo to be strong.). But they have always been sensationalist, they are even sensationalist on the cost of Schumacher, when he makes a bad move (the term "Schummel Schumi" was invented by Bild, for example). At least I have already seen Bild criticize Schumacher, wheras I am yet to see Spanish papers crtiticizing Alonso.

Back to Pedro de la Rosa, but unfortunately it seems we can all agree that he's on of the nicest guys in the paddock and we all wish him well - so there's probably not going to be any debate on this particular subject at all...

BTW, there is no "campaign" against Alonso in the German media. Just by Bild (and even that is not a "campaign", as far as I can see it they don't bother more about him than about any other non-German driver. Now they have put a bad shot of him on that pic, big deal - in other articles they hype up Hamilton or even Button as main threats and "enemies". In this particular article they took an Alonso pic, because it was him who made a comment on expecting the Merc-Schum combo to be strong.). But they have always been sensationalist, they are even sensationalist on the cost of Schumacher, when he makes a bad move (the term "Schummel Schumi" was invented by Bild, for example). At least I have already seen Bild criticize Schumacher, wheras I am yet to see Spanish papers crtiticizing Alonso.

Ouch, hit a nerve there I see.

Sorry.´

And I have some pathetic pieces of "jounalism" from Frankfurt Allgemeine (if it still exists) to prove me right and you wrong.

And whilst on the subject - Bild is proclaiming MS world champion already.

Come on, can't we ALL agree that ALL dumb, hysterical sports journalists respectively from whichever country they are from (you should only see the skiing journos here!!!) have an agenda and are only trying to impose their dumb, hysterical stupid views upon us and that we are much better off thinking on our own? Disrespectively of which country we happen to come from and/or which driver we happen to support? (here's where the "world peace" bit comes in)

And Orin - flying pink ponies don't poo!!!

EDIT Hmmm... I said this was going to be my last post on the subject some posts ago, didn't I?

Now, I don't for a moment think MS would say something as stupid as that, but it gives an idea on how things are brought to us by journos.

Can you imagine the Brit press proclaiming Hamilton WDC already? Or - for that matter - the Spanish proclaiming Alonso?

But hey! All in all - isn't it lovely I understand both German and Spanish...

No, you didn't hit a nerve, simply I didn't feel what you said was the truth. Also Bild doesn't "proclaim" Schumi the WDC. What you quoted here means: "Silver-Schumi in interview: "I want to be world champion".

Now, I'm starting to suspect your German is not quite good, so maybe that's the reason for misunderstandings.