pressure balanced vs thermostatic valves (1/2 inch vs 3/4 inch)

I am in the process of installing a shower which will have a rain showerhead, a hand shower unit, and 2 body sprays. I would like to be able to use the body sprays at the same time as the rain showerhead, and then be able to use all 3 components by themselves. I have 3/4 inch plumbing run from the main water line. I am thinking that it would be best to use the 3/4 inch plumbing to feed a 3 way diverter valve and then feed 3/4 inch into a transfer valve which feeds 1/2 inch plumbing to the showerhead, handshower and body sprays. I was thinking about using a 6 function, 3 port diverter for this setup but it seems to be very difficult to find the correct valves and trim for this. Is there a better way that I should be looking at configuring this? Should I step the 3/4 inch plumbing down to 1/2 inch with a bushing right before the diverter? Would there be a noticeable reduction in pressure by doing it this way? Because I have 3/4 inch plumbing I wanted to use it to feed the valves, but it may not be feasible. Would it be better to use pressure balanced and diverters, or thermostatic with volume controls? Any help is appreciated very much. Thank you.

FIrst thing, add up the specs on the volume each thing uses, add up any/all that you want to be able to run at once. Then, compare that max value to the max flow capabilities of the 1/2" and the 3/4" valves. If the 1/2" valve can handle the flow volume (probably not), go with it as it's cheaper. You'll probably end up with the 3/4" valve which can , depending on the design, often more than twice the flow of the same company's 1/2" valve. You shouldn't make assumptions, you need to read the specsheets as there is quite a variation between both brands and lines within a brand.

Personally, I like to be able to set the temperature and never adjust it. This is more reliable with a thermostatically controlled valve summer/winter, full tank/near empty than a pressure balanced valve which doesn't take into account variations in cold or hot water supply temperatures - that's all up to you.

As to how best to select a diverter and plumb it, can't help you there.

FIrst thing, add up the specs on the volume each thing uses, add up any/all that you want to be able to run at once. Then, compare that max value to the max flow capabilities of the 1/2" and the 3/4" valves. If the 1/2" valve can handle the flow volume (probably not), go with it as it's cheaper. You'll probably end up with the 3/4" valve which can , depending on the design, often more than twice the flow of the same company's 1/2" valve. You shouldn't make assumptions, you need to read the specsheets as there is quite a variation between both brands and lines within a brand.

Personally, I like to be able to set the temperature and never adjust it. This is more reliable with a thermostatically controlled valve summer/winter, full tank/near empty than a pressure balanced valve which doesn't take into account variations in cold or hot water supply temperatures - that's all up to you.

As to how best to select a diverter and plumb it, can't help you there.

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What thermostatic shower valve do you have? My next shower will be thermostatic and piped with independent positve cut off volume controls for each function. Rain showerhead,handshower,wall showerhead and 6 body sprays. Same thing on the other side of the shower including another rain head. Two 3" shower drains. max flow would be close to 35 gal a minute.

Each set of 2 body sprays would have its own positive cut off volume control valve,allowing you to turn them on or off in combinations of two's for a total of 6.

In my last trip to London, the hotel I stayed in had Grohe thermostatically controlled valves...the pressure was bouncing all over the place, but the temp stayed nice and consistent. So, when I remodeled, I decided to use one of theirs. I do not have any experience with others, and I'm sure other brands make some that work well, too. Mine is a weird one as it has a built-in diverter for a shower (via a hose connection), a tub spout, and the temp and volume controls all in an external mount fixture - the thing weighs about 10#. There is an air duct immediately behind this wet wall, and I wanted something that could be serviced easily without dealing with it or the granite tile on the wall. Then, throw in a pocket door, and access after the fact is almost nonexistent.

I am in the process of installing a shower which will have a rain showerhead, a hand shower unit, and 2 body sprays. I would like to be able to use the body sprays at the same time as the rain showerhead, and then be able to use all 3 components by themselves. I have 3/4 inch plumbing run from the main water line. I am thinking that it would be best to use the 3/4 inch plumbing to feed a 3 way diverter valve and then feed 3/4 inch into a transfer valve which feeds 1/2 inch plumbing to the showerhead, handshower and body sprays. I was thinking about using a 6 function, 3 port diverter for this setup but it seems to be very difficult to find the correct valves and trim for this. Is there a better way that I should be looking at configuring this? Should I step the 3/4 inch plumbing down to 1/2 inch with a bushing right before the diverter? Would there be a noticeable reduction in pressure by doing it this way? Because I have 3/4 inch plumbing I wanted to use it to feed the valves, but it may not be feasible. Would it be better to use pressure balanced and diverters, or thermostatic with volume controls? Any help is appreciated very much. Thank you.

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What type of hot water tank do you have?

Is your 3/4" lines run in copper or pex?

What size is your drain?

What is the flow rate of your fixtures? Most are 2.5 gallons per minute but many people have their restrictors removed when installed.

If you like long showers you might consider one of these heat recovery systems the men have been talking about lately.

If you like lots of pressure you should make sure your shower drain is a high flow capicity like a linear drain or 3" point drain.

3/4" is ideal and will supply your valve with all the water it can handle. From there some proper layout is needed for an even balance.

Where do you want your body jets to hit your body? Where is your glass going?

Why not post a room layout and your wish list.

The more information you can provide the better advice you will get here.

What is the flow rate of your fixtures? Most are 2.5 gallons per minute but many people have their restrictors removed when installed.

If you like long showers you might consider one of these heat recovery systems the men have been talking about lately.

If you like lots of pressure you should make sure your shower drain is a high flow capicity like a linear drain or 3" point drain.

3/4" is ideal and will supply your valve with all the water it can handle. From there some proper layout is needed for an even balance.

Where do you want your body jets to hit your body? Where is your glass going?

Why not post a room layout and your wish list.

The more information you can provide the better advice you will get here.

JW

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I have a tankless hot water heater so losing hot water is not an issue.
The 3/4 lines are pex.
The drain is 3".
Each fixture will most likely be 2.5 gpm. I haven't bought them yet but everything I have looked at has been 2.5 gpm.

The one thing I am not sure about is whether I want to use a pressure balanced system with diverters, or thermostatic system with volume controls? Any advice on this would help make my decision easier. Thank you.

Some thermostatically controlled valves want shutoffs before them, some can use them after them, so depending on the control you select, make sure it can work the way you want.

Note that 3/4" pex has a smaller ID than copper, and bigger than 1/2" copper, it's still not the same as 3/4" copper and you will likely see a lowered volume than you would with copper...you probably won't see the full volume available if you had copper there, so keep that in mind when selecting the devices you wish to use. As long as the pipe can deliver more than you're using, you should maintain pressure, but try to use more, and it will drop, maybe to a value that would degrade your pleasure and expectations.

I have a tankless hot water heater so losing hot water is not an issue.
The 3/4 lines are pex.
The drain is 3".
Each fixture will most likely be 2.5 gpm. I haven't bought them yet but everything I have looked at has been 2.5 gpm.

The one thing I am not sure about is whether I want to use a pressure balanced system with diverters, or thermostatic system with volume controls? Any advice on this would help make my decision easier. Thank you.

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I like the thermostatic control feature and individual control valves.

A 3" drain is great if your working with some large water volume.

Often my clients complain about water pressure. If your expecting big things from your new fixtures you might be a little disappointed. Lately we are dealing with clients removing the restrictors so size the drain and flow rates to handle this if you should happen to ask the plumber to remove them.

I like the thermostatic control feature and individual control valves.

A 3" drain is great if your working with some large water volume.

Often my clients complain about water pressure. If your expecting big things from your new fixtures you might be a little disappointed. Lately we are dealing with clients removing the restrictors so size the drain and flow rates to handle this if you should happen to ask the plumber to remove them.

What make of fixtures?

This DornBracht line is outstanding if it's in the budget!

Any steam?

JW

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Thanks for the info. I am currently looking at the following lines:

Kohler Purist
Brizo Euro
Delta Arzo

Is there one that is recommended over another, or one that I should stay away from?
I have not heard of Dornbracht before but they do look very nice. I will look into their prices.
I do have a Relax-a-mist steam generator that will be installed.

Is there one that is recommended over another, or one that I should stay away from?
I have not heard of Dornbracht before but they do look very nice. I will look into their prices.
I do have a Relax-a-mist steam generator that will be installed.

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The relax a mist generators have two steam outlets so plan your fixtures and benches away from these. Often you see them grouped somewhat close together.

The Dornbracht fixtures tie into steam shower waterproofing wonderfully as do many others.

Make sure your tile setter gets the proper water/vapour flashing details from the plumbing fixtures. These details so often get missed. Or the fixtures do not provide them.

The Dornbracht features come with Kerdi Flashing details but Noble Seal TS ones are easy to make in replacement.

Check with your plumbing retailer and ask which of your selection works best with a steam shower.

Thanks for the tip about the water/vapour flashing. I had not thought about that yet. Does it make sense that I will be using hardie tile backer, mesh tape in the corners, thinset in the seams and then a rubber compund rolled over everything? Am I missing anything?

I am not planning on adding lighting because there already will be adequate lighting in the room.

I have just received a quote for American Standard (Boulevard line) that includes a 3/4 inch thermostatic valve and 3 - 3/4" volume controls. The quote for this system is about $450 less than the same quote for the Brizo (Euro line). Do you think I will be satisfied with the performance and the durability of the American Standard Boulevard product line?

I have not decided on the brand of body sprays that I want to use yet. I was thinking the Delta T1817 body spray looks good becuase it has 2 spray jets in one unit that are 5 inches apart. The unit runs at 2.4 gpm. This would hopefully give a satifactory width of spray so that I wouldn't need to go with 2 separate sprays beside each other. I may go with 3 of these body sprays because the rough-in valve (R530) can generate 16 gpm and this should be enough pressure to run the rainshowerhead (2.5 gpm) as well as 3 bodysprays (2.5 gpm each). Any thoughts? I am also considering the Moen TS1320 body sprays because they would match the showerhead I am planning on using. Any recommendations on a different body spray that has great performance without breaking the bank? The Dornbracht looks like it may be a little pricey.

Thanks for the tip about the water/vapour flashing. I had not thought about that yet. Does it make sense that I will be using hardie tile backer, mesh tape in the corners, thinset in the seams and then a rubber compund rolled over everything? Am I missing anything?

I am not planning on adding lighting because there already will be adequate lighting in the room.

I have just received a quote for American Standard (Boulevard line) that includes a 3/4 inch thermostatic valve and 3 - 3/4" volume controls. The quote for this system is about $450 less than the same quote for the Brizo (Euro line). Do you think I will be satisfied with the performance and the durability of the American Standard Boulevard product line?

I have not decided on the brand of body sprays that I want to use yet. I was thinking the Delta T1817 body spray looks good becuase it has 2 spray jets in one unit that are 5 inches apart. The unit runs at 2.4 gpm. This would hopefully give a satifactory width of spray so that I wouldn't need to go with 2 separate sprays beside each other. I may go with 3 of these body sprays because the rough-in valve (R530) can generate 16 gpm and this should be enough pressure to run the rainshowerhead (2.5 gpm) as well as 3 bodysprays (2.5 gpm each). Any thoughts? I am also considering the Moen TS1320 body sprays because they would match the showerhead I am planning on using. Any recommendations on a different body spray that has great performance without breaking the bank? The Dornbracht looks like it may be a little pricey.

For steam showers we like installing Noble Seal TS - you can use a liquid membrane like Hydro Ban or Red Guard but you need to follow the install spec's to a T. Kerdi works as well but choose a tile that is acceptable with non-modified thinset. The steamer above is my last Kerdi project.

A flat shower ceiling tends to drip all over onto you when you've got the steam up. Sloping it causes the condensation to mostly flow to the low side and flow down the wall rather than drip.

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Riddle me this.....And seriously I really wouldn't believe it myself if it wasn't in my own shower. I have a 12 yr old home with a large walk in shower with two control valves and one drain. Its an odd shape but works out to be around 20 sq ft of floor space. The cultured marble walls extend about 82" from the floor. Now to the gravy.......the ceiling and the 12" or so of the exposed vertical wall is just green drywall that I painted. When I say I painted I mean I laid some paint on it..LOL. It has about 7 coats of oil base paint before the shower ever got wet. It gets steamed up but never mildews and it never peels.......it gets yellow streaks that cleans right off. So WTH are the yellow streaks? After I clean it off it takes a couple mounths for it to come back. Its not super bad but its enough for me to see and want to clean.

I will be sloping my ceiling and it is 8 feet high. There is one exterior wall on the side where the bench is with the pink insulation in the photo. The rain shower head and all 4 body sprays will be opposite the bench, with the handshower located just to the right. The two steam generator nozzles will be coming through the wall to the right of the bench. There will be a glass door to the left of the bench.

I think I am going to use green e-board, mesh tape in the corners, thinset the seams, and then seal up with Laticrete Hydro Ban. I was thinking about Noble Seal TS but I think that will bring the cost up quite a bit and using Hydro Ban should be more than a sufficient seal as long as it is used properly. I am going to use a dry glaze porcelain tile (http://www.amestile.com/upload/pdf/CementiProductSheet.pdf).

Also, I have also decided to go with the American Standard Boulevard line (3/4 inch valves) with 4 American Standard spray jets (1660130.002).

Let me know if you can see any problem with this configuration. Thanks for your help.