After November 2nd, 2004, there were increasing reports from elections officials, small local papers, and, yes, bloggers who had bothered to studiously examine official election results, The New York Times published several articles labelling such concerns by Americans as "conspiracy theories".

So we sent them a list of "15 Unanswered Questions" --- all of them based on hard evidence --- that we'd hope they'd investigate and report on to the American people. That was on November 21st, 2004.

One of those questions concerned a single county in North Carolina which had used the UniLect voting machine and, as we reported on November 4th, 2004, had completely lost a full 4,438 votes. Those lost votes later spawned a Special Election in Cartaret County, NC to re-vote some of the local issues because of it.

We had asked suggested to The Times that such hard facts were hardly "conspiracy theories" and we had hoped they'd be able to investigate and report on which other states and counties had been using the identical UniLect machines which --- company officials admitted --- had contained memory chips that stored fewer votes than they had told state officials.

Since UniLect machines were also in use in Ohio, we thought it was a particularly germane point. But apparently The Times didn't agree. They neither investigated, nor reported on the matter to our knowledge.

And now, months after the election, and days after the inaugural, The Charlotte Observerreports this morning that the same model of UniLect machines used in North Carolina were also in use in Pennsylvania and seem to have lost votes there as well [emphasis added]:

Local and state officials in Pennsylvania are examining malfunctions and questions with voting machines in three counties --- the same model machine that lost more than 4,400 votes in North Carolina.

"We continue to be uncertain about these machines," said Michael Coulter, who heads an independent committee examining voting machine mishaps in Mercer County, Pa., where he said machines in 13 precincts erased some voters' choices.

Mercer County, as well as Beaver and Greene counties, along the Ohio border, use the Unilect Patriot voting machine, an electronic mechanism that does not produce a paper ballot and is the same model that lost 4,438 votes in Carteret County, along the N.C. coast.

As well as lost and erased votes, there was also an unusually high rate of "undervotes" on the Presidential ballot where those machines were in use [emphasis again added] ...

All three of the western Pennsylvania counties recorded a high percentage of "undervotes" for president, which is when a voter doesn't vote in that race. Mercer County's undervote was 7.8 percent, four times higher than in 2000, when they used old, lever machines.

In North Carolina, state lawmakers are scrutinizing why more than 10 percent of Burke County voters were recorded as not making a choice in the presidential race, an "undervote" rate that is four to five times as high as nearly all the other counties in the state. Burke and Carteret are the only N.C. counties that use Unilect machines.
...
[M]achines in 13 of Mercer's 100 precincts would let a voter select candidates in the races on several pages of the ballot and highlight the choice, but when the voter reached the sixth page the highlighting disappeared and all the candidates were unselected. The voter's choices had vanished.

"The voter's choices had vanished."

And we remind you again, The New York Times didn't find it necessary to look into which counties in Ohio used these same machines, if there were any lost votes or an unusually high rate of "undervotes" on them, presumably because such notions were simply the "conspiracy theories" of "leftist bloggers" as they had described them at the time.

That despite just 60,000 or so of 5.5 million in a single state (Ohio) which would have completely flipped a United States Presidential Election.

Repeating: Election officials and the voting machine manufacturer admit that 4,438 votes were entirely lost in just one North Carolina county where UniLect machines were used.

Repeating: UniLect machines were also in use in Ohio.

We will continue to press both the Mainstream Media, the States and the Voting Machine Companies to better serve the American Public whom they are failing to adequately serve at this time. But just in case you wonder why --- on January 23rd, 2005 --- this information is finally being reported by The Observer at all, it is because of inquiries in Pennsylvania that were demanded by the voters who spoke up, made noise, and created a petition to force their elected officials into taking action:

Their inquiry was prompted not by Election Day glitches, but by a petition sent by voters in Beaver County who suggested the machines were susceptible to fraud and tampering.

Your voice does matter. When you speak up.

We've set up VelvetRevolution.us to help you do that. Please visit and sign-up (it's free!), so you can speak up, make noise and take part in some upcoming actions that will be announced there in the coming weeks.

Yo Brad! Just keep on doing what you're doing! All it's going to take is one person of conscience to sing the sweet/putrid song of the truth... But watch your back, brother - I'd hate to hear you'd cut off both your hands and both your feet and shot yourself four times in the head. We love you and need you!

There is no plausable reason for the 'machines' to not have a paper trail for vote vaification.
There is no plausable reason for the failure of the Demo's to Insist and Demand a paper trail ( except the GOPhers did not want one-so they rolled over).

Conspiracy Fact.
On the Question of vote fraud to steal an election?We know that if the GOPhers could they would, so they did.

We need to eliminate opportunities for the morally uninhibited to steal those votes. By allowing election officials to be active in positions such as political committee chairs and such is just like handing them the perfect opportunity and there they are with both MOTIVE and OPORTUNITY, the two main ingredients for fraud.
I think until we can get the problems with e-voting
ironed out we need to return to the tried and true paper ballots and hand counting. It's not that much trouble and with good oversight could spare a lot of expense and grief.

Meanwhile, the rest of us need to continue to do our parts. Write, call, e-mail your representatives in Congress. Contact the MSM and demand that they cover this issue. Spread the word, and don't give up!

Pennsylvania was another swing state where the exit polls favoring Kerry differed greatly from the tabulated vote. The only difference with Ohio and Florida was that the crooks didn't do their job well enough in Pennsylvania...Kerry won there despite the fraud.

Continuing to press the issue in Pennsylvania is important. Finding stolen votes won't affect the outcome there, because Kerry won anyway. It therefore can't be condemned as a "sore loser" strategy, and it could be the key to exposing what Republicans did in Ohio, Florida, and New Mexico. Bush has been inaugurated, but it's still possible to demonstrate that he shouldn't have been.

Although there wasn't enough cheating done in Pensylvania to steal the state, there were still thousands (or more) votes that were stolen and added to George Bush's popular vote tally. I believe that this was done all over the country. George Bush's friends definitely knew what they were doing. They stole the states they needed to win the election, and stole massive numbers of votes from every where else all over the country, so he could steal the popular vote also. He wanted to make certain that his legitimacy was not questioned. George Bush must be smarter then he either looks, or acts, because it actually worked! The news media never questioned the legitimacy, and neither did most Americans. That is why we were'nt able to form a mass demonstration (like Kiev) to overturn the election. He didn't want the same controversy that he had in 2000 either. When interviewed on Election Day Jeb Bush stated "That he wasn't going to make the same mistake that he did in 2000" He said that the 2000 election had been much too close. "He also said that he was going to stay in Florida this time to make certain that that George Bush won by a much larger margin. How could his remaining in Florida have made any difference in vote counts in an honest election? These guy's stole it again and they didn't even make any attempts to steal it with discretion. Look at the inauguration festivities: They had two especially special balls: one for Ohio and one for Florida. Isn't it a coincidence that those are the two primary states that we believe were stolen. Look at all of George Bush's talk about democracy, liberty, and freedom, and just after he has stolen another election. This guy is practically jumping up and down saying "yeah" I stole it, but you can't prove it. I can't believe that this guy has the gall to speak out against tyrany, oppression, and dictatorships, (and with such conviction and passion). The man is truly a monster and must be stopped. I am now more determined than ever, to see this criminal, illigitimate bastard, and imposter of a president impeached!

So if the whole truth comes out someday most people will say...oh well...too late...what's done is done...he's inaugurated and lets just move on to election reform and live with four more years of frauds and crimes perpetrated by the corporate royalty. And if there's no election reform?

The election was a fraud! It was set up as a fraud by voting machine companies funded by Christian Dominionists and with partisan ties to Republicans and the Military Industrial Complex. Using privately owned and protected voting machine software not subject to public investigation or scrutiny! George DUMBYA Bush and Richard TRICKY DICK Cheney were illegitimate in 2000 and even more so in 2004.

Judy C...you are right on...this was a national vote rigging campaign to insure a voter margin where mainstream legitimacy would not be a question, leaving the "conspiracy theorists" and "left-wing kooks" twisting in the wind as they smirk at us from on high. But more importantly, preventing the type of media spotlighting and general public questioning that would have compelled much faster and more thorough investigating and exposure.

But I also do not buy into the notion that what is done is done and that simply because they committed crimes and violated the law, we are just told to stand by the law and constitution that is now failing us in both purpose and structure. In other words, we are threatened with the full force of the law as they choose to interpret and enforce it if we choose to resist (civil disobedience or revolution), while they exploit and corrupt the law to maintain power. In their hopes, leaving us the frustrated and helpless victims of their lawlessness.

We can certainly petition for election reform (I'm still waiting for an answer on a uniform national election reform petition?) to our Congress or local officials. But in the federal government and key states, Republicans remian in control, having no insentive to change the status quo they manipulate to remain in power. So where does that leave us?

As I have commented repeatedly, they should be given a short fair opportunity to correct election problems at the local, state, and federal level. If they fail to do so swiftly and sincerely, then mass civil disobedience and even revolution will be an option. Our original Declaration of Independence stated it well...that the people have the right to alter or abolish their government, especially when, as Benjamin Franklin noted, that it has become so corrupt it is no longer worth keeping.

I would add that we're not just dealing with a crisis of political personality involving names like Bush or Cheney. We are experiencing a very fundamental structural failure of our government to adequately represent the interests of all ciitizens and protect our civil and constitutional rights. While this structural failure can be corrected, it can also become so structurally unsound that it leads to an even greater level of tyranny and fascism if not dealt with quickly and aggressively.

I am bothered by reports today of Rumsfeld expanding his own personal Pentagon intelligence apparatus and the growing use of special ops military within the United States. These are publicly massaged as efforts to counter terrorism after 9/11, but if Rumsfeld and our government had a role in 9/11, which I now firmly believe they did, then we must look at their intentions under the light of their conduct and fraudulent crimes.

The military desire to develop national databases on all citizens, military patrols of airports, military domestic intelligence operations, military support for local law enforcement, not against terrorists, but against anti-war and anti-government protests.
Add to this preparations under FEMA for White House control of all aspects of our government and country during a "crisis", whether an actual one or concocted by our corporate government, and just who our military is really targeting and what their real intentions are remains an open question.

Again, I will say that ELECTION FRAUD, WAR FRAUD, ENERGY FRAUD, RELIGIOUS FRAUD, and MEDIA FRAUD are all interconnected in silencing or satiating the majority of Americans as corporate royalty in the form of a Republican-controlled Congress and White House continue to serve their puppet masters in corporate America. Even if by some slim chance we correct electoral problems, that still leaves mass murdering criminals and traitors in office!

But this revolutionary is still patient! However, 2005 must not be allowed to pass silently into the night! The Bush/Cheney criminal cabal and their Republican or compliant Democratic corporate whores must be put on notice that the clock is ticking and that a people, regardless of how few, will no longer tolerate the frauds they continue to perpetrate against all of us and against our Beloved Mother Earth.

TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE! No taxation without representation! Give me liberty or give me death! Live free or die! No true peace without true justice!
What words go around come around and our rendezvous with destiny may finally be upon us?

Hey attorney Jim...so you're TACO TOM now! I always knew you were some kind of soft mushy form of indigestion! LOL

America Republican Taco Tom? Right...like Bush can only win with 51% of the vote...and that's only after he stole enough of those votes to make a difference. And I sure am looking at world events too! That's why George Bush, Dick Cheney & Company are mass murdering criminals who helped murder 3,000 Americans so they could go have their corporate buddies profit off of murdering over 100,000 more. Start reading Tom/Jim and stop being so ignorant of "reality" and relying on your news from corporate whores and fanatic right-wing religious evangelicals!

Oops sorry! Guess you're one of those corporate whores living the high life as a good little see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil Republican Earth killing materialistic gluttonous taco boy!

And now that I've pooped on Republicans, let me fly over to the Democratic establishment and leave some poop on them!

If George Soros and the Democratic Party's pro-democracy advocacy group can spend millions of dollars and organize mass civil disobedience to uncover and challenge voter fraud, voter suppression, and exit poll discrepancies in the Ukraine...where was thier support of civil disobedience, legal challenges, and mass demonstrations in America based on all the voting fraud and exit poll discrepancies that occurred on November 2, 2004?

John Conyers and Barbara Boxer, as has been clearly demonstrated, are the minority of the minority party. And we my friends are the victims of a corporate owned government where American corporations are free to buy and corrupt both Republicans and Democrats, whether they work in the Congress or the White House!

When I speak openly of revolution, I do so not to suggest that we simply remove a government, but that we create a constitution and government that will evict American corporations and those of self-interested wealth from the control of our society, our media, our government, our country, and our world.

When our notice to the government is given...it is given to both Democrats and Republicans, it is given to George Soros and other wealthy donors, that our country and our government is no loger for sale and we will not continue to prostitute ourselves as consumers only to be distracted and satiated as citizens!

To George Soros and the Democratic Party, who abandoned us while they were fighting for election freedom and justice in the Ukraine, we will not soon forget and we will not come to Washington to protect you or any other party or personality when the people's judgment day comes and it is time for us to seize buildings, and streets, and remain by the hundreds of thousands until you meet our demands or are evicted from office! EVICTED! That's right! Like Donald Trump would say...YOU'RE FIRED!

TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE! We demand action! NOW! And I know there are those on both sides of the isle and in the media who read this blog! You are all on notice! We're not going to take it anymore and no TACO TOM/JIM, I don't need to take drugs, I have natural revolutionary adrenaline passed down from a long line of patriotic ancestors.

You can demand election reform and new elections in Ukraine, but not in America? Now tell me...is that because the global energy empire already controls America, while billionaire oil and gas industrialists in the Ukraine backed election reform they would benefit from? Please tell me I'm wrong! But I already know you can't deny the truth! Election reform for oil and gas industrialists in the Ukraine, but not election reform or justice for the people in AMERICAN! You bastards!

I just watched a C-Span presentation, including among others, Greg Palast.

He mentioned a letter written by Jeb Bush ordering the removal of many thousands of blacks from the Florida voting lists.

Greg called the pig media to give them a heads up and they said they would check it out. The pigs called back and said they called Jeb and asked him about it but he denied it. They concluded, therefore, that Greg was not accurate.

To be "fair" the pigs had done "extensive research" by asking Jeb for a copy of the letter but the bushit said none existed.

Greg did not have a copy of it either. So he called a certain Florida political office posing as an insider. The clerk there dutifully faxed "the insider" the Jeb Bush letter.

The letter was a direct violation of two court orders.

What did Jeb know about the Florida courts that he would be so brazen? That there are no free elections in the US, now that crooks and liars run them?

Did he also know that the family, feeling the "adrenaline" of this public jerking off, can now grab up their Iraqi dolls and go play "vote in a demockracy" in lotsa sand boxes?

I notice that one big rule of the morals of the fam is that they only play the game on small defenseless countries ... which have oil.

Good news Dredd! Would love to see a copy of the letter so we can e-mail it to millions of people!
Enjoy Greg Palast who does what American media once did...their job!

No worries about Taco Tom/Jungle Jim...I think our efforts are getting to him and his cronies. Seems he only pops up when election fraud is covered. We must be getting close to spoiling or exposing their shenanigans that could get them all prison terms!
:-)

Viva la Revolucion!

Freebird

(PS: Sorry about some of my earlier typos , that's what happens when you're typing with clenched fists...LOL)

I think that sooner or later, we will find a crucial piece of undeniable evidence, or someone involved in the conspiracy (that I believe ocurred on election day) will find themselves reading the Constitution one day and will suddenly develope a conscience.

We only need to knock over one domino for the rest to start to fall, in my opinion. The most important cement holding Republican stonewalling together is that the public understandably does not want to believe that the President and his administration can really be as corrupt as they seem to be.

If we do find the crucial evidence, I think that we need to remove Bush from office. A fraudulently elected President cannot be allowed to stand. I don't know what the legal means for this would be and it's all speculation now, since the investigation is ongoing.

But once we find that smoking gun, Katy bar the door. I believe the American people will make the streets of Ukraine look like a ghost town.

Brad - after you get the bumper stickers - can you provide me with a single phrase, or list of goals or principals, or something I can say when people ask: "What's VR"? You know, a headline or sound-bite that will catch them - sorry - I probably should know how to describe it succinctly, but also do not wish to put words in your mouth. If every Kerry voter purchased a bumper sticker, then we might know how many voters chose him for President.

Hi, Phil #22 - I agree with you - good Republicans are deserting the party - they need to inform their "leadership" which foisted DUMYA and his gang on them against their wishes, that he HAS TO GO, or they will ALL have to get new jobs soon. The Repubs. put him in - it's their fault - they have to get him out - and I think many of them are starting to feel really sick to their stomachs now.

Peggy - Yes, the web address will definitely be on the bumper stickers. As to some easy phrases to explain, um... "Power to the People" "Revolution starts at Home" "A Citizen's Brigade Taking Back the Country" "Truth, Justice & the American Way"?

Those are all slogans more than explanations. Since I'm preparing to skip town shortly, for now, I'll have to point you towards the ABOUT link at VR where I hope you can glean something to use.

Otherwise, I'll have to take another run at the issue when I get back for you. I bet some other folks (either here or there) would have 2 or 3 cents to put in as well on the matter.

And, btw, just so you folks know...as you guessed TACO TOM is indeed ATTY JIM under his new name. All the better to claim he was banned with.

If he gets more obnoxious and insulting and spamming and manipulatively topic-changing to attempt to control threads than becomes tolerable, Winter Patriot has my blessing to remove his posts while I'm gone as he sees fit.

Paul, of course, is still here. And any others who express "dissenting" viewpoints. We appreciate all voices. TACO TOM will continue to be here as well if he stops spamming and treating other commenters respectfully.

It's not the opinion, it's the obnoxious, disrespectful attitude and the abusive, manipulative controlling attempts at disruption that is the problem with our loopy "friend" TACO TOM/ATTY JIM.

Yep, we are still right here in Carteret County. NC....waiting for our votes to be counted!! Thanks for the spotliight Brad! The powers that be are attempting to sweep this under the rug...they have practically told Britt Cobb to concede and that is that...but not for me. Although I voted for Cobb, I want all of my votes counted..including John Kerry and John Edwards. So do an awful lot of other people that also appreciate your hard work Brad. Keep it up!

Brad, how much do you know about the Unilect system? For instance, they keep saying there is no paper trail.

Well, first of all, we all signed books acknowledging our presence to cast a ballot. This is how the BOE know who we are of course. Although, may I point out that to this date even though I am certain my vote was lost, I have not been officially contacted by the BOE.

To be direct, are we sure these machines leave no paper trail at alll? Is there not some sort of master paper printout? This issue arouse immediately and fell swiftly very shortly after the election by an individual who claimed to see some sort of tape like paper rolling out the back of the "master computer". Email when you get the time and we can compare notes. Thanks.

As Taco Tom. the quaint new nom de plume taken up by ATTY jimmo (what the hell does atty stand for anyway?).

Just when you think you got over it--That bad headcold you had. You know it's going to go away some day. You caugh, sneeze, runny nose and caugh up gobbs of phlegm, you spit him out and hope he will end but he just hangs on and on.

Then along comes the good medic Brad with just the right medicine and Hurrah relief, at last, gone.
Not so fast! Reinvented as Taco Tom he now returns to give Gastritis to all.

Is Taco Tom an attempt grab onto the hespanic issue and snuggle up to Alberto Gonzales?

It's great that SOME of us know the truth, but very alarming that so many of us don't. And that is, of course, because of our media. The only way we're getting the word out about the stolen election is through the internet. Not good enough. We are fragmented, disorganized and lacking an organization with the nads to whip up a media firestorm--with apologies to Sen. Barbara Boxer and Rep. John Conyers and his team, whom I hold in the highest regard.

Now just imagine if MoveOn, with their huge mailing list, bankroll and Hollywood connections, got behind this issue for real? Just imagine if our contributions to MoveOn bought TV ads bringing the facts about the election to the American people? Just imagine if Important People spoke up? Holy moley, the shitstorm that would follow. A real national dialogue would finally be opened, the election would be seriously scrutinized, and ultimately Bush could be tainted and become a pariah within his own party. WE can do this, but I think we need to commandeer MoveOn to do it. My e-mails to them have gone unanswered. So to all you loyal BradBloggers--anyone have any ideas on actually ORGANIZING?

To Winter Patriot: if you've studied revolutions you know that they don't just "happen" because voters/serfs'/proles get manipulated. They happen because TPTB screw up the country's economies so bad that the people starve. So revolutions begin as not political outrage, but as drastic economic inequities that result in hunger and deprivation. As long as the voters/serfs/proles are fed and clothed and sheltered, they simply don't revolt. But none of this disputes your central thesis--the revolution is coming. But what's coming first is a global economic collapse beyond our human imagination. I suggest you occasionally read the rants of Mogambo on Kitco.com. The dollar will ultimately implode and blood will run in the streets. Yes, THEY (TPTB) want this, or think they do, because they see it strategically as a means to their eschatological ends, and believe they can control it. But I personally think they're making a big mistake. I think in the end, the CEO's and politicians will swing from lamp posts and go to the guillotine. But it's not going to be fun for ANY of us. So don't focus all your energies on preparing for the revolution. Spend some energy and money on preparing for the economic disaster that will precede it. And no matter how cautious I sound, I'm behind you all the way. --Stan

Cool Dredd...as soon as I heard about the March 2001 Pentagon maps already planning how they were going to divide up Iraqi oil and gas assets, that cinched it for me! And who does the Pentagon work for? LOL Of course, Dick Cheney's timely Spring 2001 energy meetings and the June 2001 breakdown of gas pipeline negotiations with the Taliban...well...you get the picture and I'm sure there's plenty more just like Palast said!

SPEAKING OF THE PENTAGON & ELECTIONS!

Well! Well! Well! WECOME TO THE FUTURE FOLKS!

Just read tonight the Pentagon is shipping 18 robot warriors to Iraq for electronic combat missions! You heard it right...the Army is wheeling out its new fun video game robotic soldiers to begin killing human beings. These amazing little mechanical devils are excellent marksmen and will be operated by the new video game army soldiers of America!

Yes siree they'll save our soldiers lives while annihilating the enemy...and other assorted collateral damage...winning even more hearts and minds with their techno-terrorism! And if the future enemy happens to be American protestors...I'm sure they're preparing special robots for us too! No need to worry about any more guilty consciences, battle fatigue, or soldiers squemish about taking out Americans too, just send in your loyal private software corporate "toy" soldiers to kill humans non-stop...24/7!

"OH! WOW! COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! Thanks Mom & Dad...a real authentic official US ARMY KILL ROBOT...just what I wanted for Christmas. GOD! You're the greatest Mom & Dad in the whole world! Gee! Can I go outside now and shoot some rounds at the Muslim target village? Thanks! Come on Jimmy, to celebrate Jesus' birth...let's go practice killing some non-believers! GOD! It's great to live in our right-wing Christian suburb!" (Cartoon brought to you by Freebird Comics)

Soooooo...while our government for the life of me can't figure out how to run a g.. damn election and make electronic voting machines work...well don't worry, they sure have the software to help kill people to make sure they vote. I even bet they've got a paper trail to show how many shots to kill ratios they're tabulating!

So welcome to the future folks! Our future robotic army will join our future robotic airforce and our future robotic navy. All operated by our fine friends in the basement of the Pentagon under the loyal guidance of that corporate warrior...Donald Rumsfeld! Joining them of course will be advanced robotic spy planes, assasination drones, robotic riot squads, and your friendly neighborhood metalic police force. All digitally programmed to know where every American is with their PATRIOT tracking systems logged on to the digital tracer in your driver's license, passport, vehicle, and that one they injected you with when you were six years old!

Where's Moulder and Scully when you need them damnit? Oh..that's right...they were fired by John Ashcroft! Time to reopen the X-files! LOL

It's a brave new world folks and we're on the cutting edge! So why do I get that sinking feeling that we're also going to get cut in the process? Matrix...here we come! And Arnold the Terminator wants to be President? How fitting! LOL

Viva la Revolucion! THE HUMAN ONE!

Freebird!

(PS: HA! I smoked out atty Jim first! So do I get some kind of prize...stuffed animal...free movie...trip to Vegas? LOL I knew Taco Tom had to be him. I think he was a little pissed that he got marked so quick! Ain't that right Tacito? It must be those great drugs dude!)

But he makes some good points! And nobody really wants a revolution, but how far the government is willing to go will probably be the deciding factor. If it goes nowhere regardless of our pleas and simply protects the status quo, then we're headed for a showdown. An economic collapse would probably have the same effect as a revolution because the failure of government will get the blame along with whoever holds the keys to the kingdom!

There are so many unknowns...economic collapse, environmental destruction, natural resource wars...that it will be difficult even for those wanting to control everything to predict even the near future. Unfortunately, it may take an economic collapse or other serious tragedy to awaken people to the truth and by that time the consequences could be massively lethal and devastating.

So the question becomes do we wait for that to happen or do we take some drastic action to change course? Or is there any realistic middle ground that allows us to slip unscathed into the future? All interesting questions that have no easy answer.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE! FIGHT THE FUTURE! (Yes...I did watch the X-files...LOL)

re: Stan #34 I agree with you about economic collapse causing revolution. However, the haves need the have nots in a broken economy to keep them living in the style they are accustomed. By destroying the middle class they will have this accomplished. As long as the haves control the police, the military they stay in control. The only way to make the haves take notice is through the pocket book. Having been a union member for forty years I know it works. By the way, I read the Mogambo Guru in the Daily Reckoning newsletter. I do agree that our economy is on a pivot point. Too much debt, not enough well paying jobs too have a decent tax base. Record deficits, record import export balance of payments, financing a war all at the same time. It doisn't bode well for the future. Yeah you smoked ol' Jimmo out Freebird LOL

We should try to change course, but any way we do it, I believe the collapse(change) of the corporate structure as it is now will begin in about 4 years or so. And I think it will be largely economic. The things happening now are setting it up.
The wisest thing to do is position youself as far off the grid as possible. Start scaling back now. Pay all debt. Etc.
Bring your money home, invest it locally live simply, and prepare for more personal trade in commerce.
Those at the top have the furthest to fall.

You are certainly right Teresa about scaling back and paying of debts. Personal debt, and Government debt are two of the most serious problems this country has, other than GEEDUMYA. But I live on a small farm, when the collapse happens my famly children and grandchildren will be able to survive. Many living in the large cities won't. They will revolt.

How wonderful, Pushcat. Growing our own food will be one great solution. And the cities have been in decline for a long time. People should leave them and go to smaller towns and rural areas. Sell while they can. A lot could happen as the need to share will arise, with food coops, trading of services, living together communally, and the emergence of smaller political units. We all have been neglecting our togetherness and social responsibility on all levels for some time. The wise among us are reading the signs and making our way back to one another now.When sharing becomes necessary, we do it. It is really not ideology.

And I am convinced that GEEDUMYA is a sacrificial lamb, speaking of small farms. I don't really think he cares much if he lives or dies. In retrospect we will see the value of this experience.

It is so heartening to be around good, sensible people. And also, Pushcat, to hear about life-long Republicans voting for Kerry. The people across the Midwest fell in love with Kerry, as he spoke to their real problems. To see this man stolen from the people was unbearable, but they will remember. And they feel the theft, if not consciously aware of it. The fact that he won...was the people's choice... is the underlying reason I still have faith in our electorate.

More than any of the neocon's thousands of heinous crimes, I want them nailed for this one.
This presidency is a fake, and will follow that destiny. It is showing signs now of unraveling. The inauguration was theater of the absurd. People are finally understanding that we have a babbling, psychotic man on our hands. Even the puppetmasters are seeing their big mistake. He really should be put away.

But no matter what happens, I still think the big economic downturn is inevitable. It started long ago, probably going off the gold standard didn't help, but the roots are long and deep. I got really nervous during the Clinton years with all that excess, and sensed a crash coming. It's all an equalization process, and not everyone is hurt during the down times.
Money has become meaningless, and we have some hard lessons to learn. People have flourished long before credit cards and paper money. There are always things of value to be exchanged.

That's why this administration's nonsensical behavior is so inappropriate... cavorting around the world like madmen thinking they can take over sovereign countries. It's ludicrous. When our real problems are domestic. It will be clear soon. That's why Kerry won. He was logically addressing the real issues.

The only good thing I can see about this unfortunate theft is that it might make the neocon dream come crashing down for good.

That is amazing , Stan, that you had the forsight and the courage to make that move. To protect your family like that. It gives me faith.

As much as we feel we are victimized by the greedy and powerful, life doesn't neglect honest, hard-working people. The wheel will come around.

And Pushcat, you're probably right. Who the hell care about Geedumya, anyway. Forget him. I bet history will.

Thanks, Teresa. Your comment on the "babbling psychotic man" reminds me of the underground understanding of Nixon's downfall--that TPTB let him fall because he was going nuts. Perhaps they will do the same with G. Have you escaped to a place of relative safety yet? --Stan

Brad, I believe it was Gaston County, NC (I'm from NC and not familiar w/Cartaret County)...also, check the Charlotte Observer and Gaston Paper archives because I believe the Supervisor of Elections, Ms. Page and her right hand man (can't remember his name) both resigned (under pressure --- either resign or be fired)...

I am not sure what happened in Gaston County...but over 4000 votes were evaporated into thin air here in Carteret County which is where I am located......and I am so glad to see another North Carolinian here on the BradBlog Judy!!!

I believe that the same thing is happening (albeit more slowly) in Canada. We are also a union family deliberately paying down our debt as quickly as possible. We have always lived in a small town (not much use for cities) where neighbours help neighbours, share extra food, etc. We bank at a local Credit Union. We have no credit cards (although it can be very difficult to function without one these days). Have a garden, fruit trees and have recently bought a house that we share with my parents. Funny how like-minded people eventually find each other in forums like this.

I agree with you that "those at the top have the furthest to fall" but we, the ordinary people, the prepared people will likely survive.

Teresa, there are many in my area that feel the same as you do. Many life-long Republicans here voted for Kerry and they feel as I do that their vote has been stolen. Most democrats know they've been stolen. Our first order of business is getting free and fair elections back. Otherwise it will be as you say. Family and friends living together and helping each other out to survive. The powers that be, are bankrupting this country, with an illegal war and deficit spending. But I do disagree with you whether GEEDUMYA cares whether he lives or dies. The litttle coward had a veritable army around him at his coronation.

As the ugly dark clouds of fascism came over Europe in the 1930's, TWO-THIRDS of the Jews in Poland emigrated out. They could see what was coming. The third that remained were all--every last one--murdered after the Nazis invaded. It isn't hard to see disaster coming down the pike. Even the primitive tribespeople along the Indian Ocean knew enough to run inland before the tsunami.

Sheesh. I hope I didn't slander either freebird or winterpatriot with that faux pas! Pushcat, I've also been a union member for thirty-three years, so like you I've been able to see the ruthless corporism up close and personal. Teresa--wise advice, and from various comments it sounds like at least several posters here are already following it. I took my family out of urban life and back to a remote small town in '95, when it became clear that the federal deficits were going to overwhelm the country. And to freebird (really!) yes, the trigger could be almost anything, but whatever it is it will trigger economic collapse of this financial house of cards we all live in. Even a political Watergate-type scandal could do it at this point. It is POSSIBLE that one reason the MSM won't touch the election scandal is that they realize it would be that trigger. It wouldn't be the first time they kept us in the dark for what they thought was our own good. True? --Stan

Until we stop partisan Republican companies like Diebolt, ES&S and others from controling the vote count we will continue to see Republican "victories" and "faulty" exit polls. Look out for 2006.

What really got my attention in the post-election news was the utter lack of coverage by the mainstream press of ANYTHING related to voter fraud in this country. It was as if it wasn't news worthy or just embarrassing to talk about. Unbelievable. I have lost what little respect I still had for outfits like the New York Times and CNN. The only real news is found on the internet at sites like this one.

The Moken, the tribe thet survived the tsunami were taught to be aware of "the wave that eats people". They were on the beach and saw the water pull back from the shore. What more would it take?
The others were so busy with all their distractions that they were oblivious to nature. One just has to be aware.

I think the lesson of the Moken is that if you do stay alert, and try to live right, you can be protected within catastrophe, if it comes. They and the animals survived with ease. Not everyone is a victim.

The Asians pool their money and have their own lending system ouside of banks. They do very well in their businesses, and we can learn from them.

Local credit unions, and things like that are a sure way to go about it, Cheryl. You are another one with foresight. No matter what happens, it's wise to live this way. We have to control our own money and realize we have power over our own destinies.
As a collective, we are resonsible for this situation in the way we've given up our power. Fixing the voting system is treating the symptom. We also have to go to the root and refuse to participate in the crime. Money in mutual funds supports their drugs, weapons, and murders. The more we withdraw our resources, the more powerless they will become. When we learn to trust and consolidate our energy, we will have autonomy. It's a long road out, but starting the journey is a good idea.

I'm sure Iraq's votes will be "electronically" tabulated American-style in what will probably be one of the most corrupt elections in history. I'm looking at two scenarios. First, the election is rigged so the US can keep its Alawi puppet in power or second, it's rigged to allow the Shite leader with ties to Iran to takeover to promote civil war. Either way, chaos continues requiring the continued presence and permanent basing of US troops as planned...or so they assume.

If something goes amiss, an Iraqi leader may emerge to tell the US, "thank you very much, but here's the door". That would deprive the US of using Iraq as a potential staging ground for invading Iran or Syria. And since Pakistan and other neighbors may prohibit Afghanistan from being used for the same purpose, the US would have to rely on its Navy and Air Force, and as was discussed last night Iran's anti-ship missiles and an increasingly hostile anti-American Muslim world may tip the balance against the Bush & Company oil and gas agenda.

So the election results should be quite interesting!

And I'm glad to hear everyone planning for a rainy day! You damn conservatives! LOL

Seriously, all of your actions to hope for the best and prepare for the worst are just natural. I became a nomadic naturalist over the years so I'm prepared to live off the land and sea should it ever come to that. But there's no harm in realistic preparation for yourself and your families, financial and otherwise.

Teresa #58--you are wise, saying what I see but can't express nearly as fluently. Freebird #61--thank you for not taking offense at our cautions and preparations!--we are with you to the end even if we don't loudly echo your damn-the-torpedos eloquence. To all: everyone here understands, surely, the peak oil problem, which is the driver of the Iraq invasion (and perhaps, though I'm loathe to believe it, the Afghanistan invasion). Frankly, I don't much believe there's some magic bullet out there to replace oil. (I have solar panels, but you can't fly a jetliner on solar.) So, in a way I understand this attempt to CONQUER the mideast, particularly Iraq, because the only alternative is to drastically alter our way of life in America. What I cannot tolerate is that we haven't been given the true motivation (i.e. SECURING OIL FOR THE NEXT THIRTY YEARS) and the opportunity to debate our choices. TPTB have made the decisions in secret (e.g. Cheney's energy summit) and then, not trusting us to evaluate our possible futures, deceived us. I hate deception. God, I do. It's so counterproductive. --Stan

Both are lies, yet only one (apparently) is impeachable - so is it just that lying about consensual sex is a crime against the constitution? When De Gaulle was buried in 96, both his wife and mistress were there openly, so apparently a national leader having sex with someone other than their partner doesn't cause a major calamity, so what's the panic? I don't get it.

Yep Czaragorn, you are quite correct. The gentleman in question was Mitterand not de Gaulle. Thanks for picking up my error, I value truth most highly and am only too aware of my defiencies -
my memory isn't fantastic at the best of times and French Heads of State wouldn't be my subject of choice on jeopardy...

Historically, we Brits tend not to focus too hard on French affairs and from what I can make out they do the same for ours. I can only hope that as Britain plays a more active role in Europe, this kind of nonsense fades away and as nations we become aware more of our similarities than our differences. In that spirit, I say once again:

Vive le revolution de velours, mes amis!

PS. Re #55. When those storm clouds of fascism were drifting over Europe, what wind was blowing them? Could it have been Dubya's grandpappy and all his high falutin' Wall Street buddies? Just a thought like...

I think all of this might be more than oil. It seems that with our advanced technology alternatives could be put in place rather quickly.
Water is thought to be an issue, as is securing trade routes, since Asia is rising again as an economic giant, a la Silk Road days.

Eventually we will have to come around to the understanding that sharing the resources will be the way to protect wealth. When we have depleted too much in grabbing so desperately, we will learn.

I do believe the this Iraq war is a good start in this lesson. He is asking for more money and more troops now. Way beyond what was planned I think.
Eventually the giant ends up on his knees begging for help.
Iraq is like the vortex, swallowing endlessly.

Jim Circle #70
Long time between posts so this may be over--
anyway e's requested by Move-on and others may be a drag but I think it is a variation of 'The Travels of Gulliver who got tied down by the Lilliputins who used thousands and thousands of threads (ropes to those little people) which by their numbers immobilized Gulliver.

But I think thousands and thousands of e's to oppose the bushmob is worth it. Oppose them over and over and often every time in every way! One voice starts it and may be heard, many many voices becomes a thunder and will be heard.