sigdiamond2000:Sorry, I'm not going to let some sawbones shoot my baby up with autism juice. I know what's best for my baby. I'll bet the same people who have no problem with this are totally against ultrasounds and counseling for baby murder. Probably have no problem with circumcision either. Or tipping at restaurants.

If ti were autism juice, there'd be less cases of autism compared to as early as 30 years ago, not more.

Because we've only been giving all of these vaccines for like 100 years now. At the least.

Bad: 2 years ago, my SIL came down with whooping cough.Really bad: She didn't go see a doctor until she'd been coughing for two months.Really really bad: She continued to go to work while sick, even after she'd been diagnosed and was told by her doctor to stay home for a week."Jesus H. Christ tap dancing on a cracker!!" bad: She's an elementary school principal at a public school in a major metropolitan area."Someone needs to beat you with a lead pipe" bad: She didn't understand until I explained it to her in easy-enough-for-a-two-year-old-to-understand terms that she posed a significant public health risk ("It's just a cough...").

Slackfumasta:How is this different from forcing women to have intra vag ultrasound to force them to hear the heartbeat? It's still government interfering in personal medical affairs.

Because anti-abortion tactics try and portray an unthinking bundle of cells as a conscious human being, and try to shame women who may not have the capacity to raise a child into thinking that they're murderers.

On the other hand, it might be a good idea to try and educate people on why vaccination is a good idea, for individuals and society as a whole.

Just because your side does it doesn't make it right.

The problem is that the sides are medical science, and the uneducated.

A few years ago friend of mine had an abortion after her fetus was diagnosed with some pretty severe deformities from a random genetic mutation not screened for in an earlier amnio. Part of the process of getting government approval involved watching an online video. The sucky part was, here she was with a horribly deformed fetus, that if it lived would never be normal and most probably life would be painful and short, and she was forced by law to watch a video about normal childhood development (up through teens) ie. "this is what your child will be doing at age 12 years old if you allow it to live!"

HotWingConspiracy:Slackfumasta: How is this different from forcing women to have intra vag ultrasound to force them to hear the heartbeat? It's still government interfering in personal medical affairs.

Just because your side does it doesn't make it right.

Abortions aren't contagious. And yes, we're right.

Pro abortion people should be happy about anti vaxers. You obviously want to kill more kids right?

MustangFive:Bad: 2 years ago, my SIL came down with whooping cough.Really bad: She didn't go see a doctor until she'd been coughing for two months.Really really bad: She continued to go to work while sick, even after she'd been diagnosed and was told by her doctor to stay home for a week.

The contagious phase is prior to the onset of the worst of the coughing. The cough is from damage done by the disease to the cilia in the bronchial tubes. Which is why cough suppressants mostly don't work.

Bad: 2 years ago, my SIL came down with whooping cough.Really bad: She didn't go see a doctor until she'd been coughing for two months.Really really bad: She continued to go to work while sick, even after she'd been diagnosed and was told by her doctor to stay home for a week."Jesus H. Christ tap dancing on a cracker!!" bad: She's an elementary school principal at a public school in a major metropolitan area."Someone needs to beat you with a lead pipe" bad: She didn't understand until I explained it to her in easy-enough-for-a-two-year-old-to-understand terms that she posed a significant public health risk ("It's just a cough...").

Naturally, she's an anti-vaxxer.

/CSB

That makes me want to strangle her. How many people did she infect at the school?

RedVentrue:HotWingConspiracy: Slackfumasta: How is this different from forcing women to have intra vag ultrasound to force them to hear the heartbeat? It's still government interfering in personal medical affairs.

Just because your side does it doesn't make it right.

Abortions aren't contagious. And yes, we're right.

Pro abortion people should be happy about anti vaxers. You obviously want to kill more kids right?

People who are pro- choice aren't necessarily pro abortion. I think elective abortions without a medical reason are a horrible thing to do, and I could never consider it, but I'm not going to tell someone else what's right for them.

An anti-vaxxer once me something like this (only I hope she totally misunderstood). In 1998 she was a follower (Mormon) of some religious guy who railed against vaccines because they were "making the population weaker". She didn't understand that his words would be would be true only in that children (but the "weak" ones!) would be killed or sterilized (or perhaps visibly crippled and therefore unattractive to the opposite sex and therefore reproducing at a reduced rate) by the diseases the vaccines protect against. Very Nazi. I think she still doesn't understand it.

An anti-vaxxer once me something like this (only I hope she totally misunderstood). In 1998 she was a follower (Mormon) of some religious guy who railed against vaccines because they were "making the population weaker". She didn't understand that his words would be would be true only in that children (but the "weak" ones!) would be killed or sterilized (or perhaps visibly crippled and therefore unattractive to the opposite sex and therefore reproducing at a reduced rate) by the diseases the vaccines protect against. Very Nazi. I think she still doesn't understand it.

Dr Dreidel:The one, teensy, tiny little problem I have with this is based on my own experience, a third of the world away.

When I started at UMD, I had to provide them proof of my vaccination records. I thought I had, but apparently, there was some piece missing, so they didn't have proof I was up-to-date (IIRC) on my MMR. (Funny enough, working at a hospital the year prior, I'd had to have my titer upped, since the MMR vaccine level was too low.)

Anyway, rather than get stuck AGAIN for the same damn thing (or, more likely, waiting for my doctor's office to RE-re-send the paperwork), I signed the "I have objections" paper and went on my merry.

// if I'd had to watch a video on top of that, it'd be worse than 47 Benghazis happening at the IRS building where they target conservatives

ASU didn't give me the option. I was reasonably sure I was current on MMR, but didn't have the paperwork or any good way to get it. I'd have signed any objection option they gave me, I didn't want to have a needle stuck in me.

I had to get the shot. I nearly passed out, I think I scared the shiat out of the nurse.

At least I never have to do that again.

/Got insurance this year, for the first time in over 10 years. Thanks, Obama!//Had first doctor visit in over 10 years too. He wanted to do blood tests "sometime" but told me there was no rush, since I'm healthy.///Had the flu this year. It sucked, I may get vaccinated next year. But if I do, it'll be the mist, no needles.

the ha ha guy:RenownedCurator: The law never said it had to be a transvaginal ultrasound -- someone took the idea that "12 weeks and under means a transvaginal ultrasound is required" and ran with it.

Actually, the original bill did mandate transvaginal ultrasounds when necessary, it was only after the media, including Fox News and other Republican-leaning outlets, "ran with it" that they passed an amendment stating that transvaginal ultrasound would be done only with consent, and the final text was limited to abdominal ultrasounds alone.

"When necessary" is not the same thing as "exclusively". If the embryo is less than six weeks or so along, it may be the only way to even see it. How many abortions are done at less than six weeks? That's two weeks past a missed period, assuming you even have a regular cycle. Note that I am not advocating for this position, merely saying that "transvaginal ultrasound when necessary" and "transvaginal ultrasound exclusively" are not the same thing, and the latter is what I was hearing from outraged friends who hadn't actually read the thing.

I've had those ultrasounds a number of times and they've never been painful, so I think a lot of it is about how good the technician is, not anything inherently wrong with the technology itself. And it can be, literally, lifesaving -- as anyone who's had an ectopic located with one can tell you.

On topic: anti-vaxxers are still idiots, and this legislation will probably be just about as effective as the abortion legislation has been.

RenownedCurator:"When necessary" is not the same thing as "exclusively". If the embryo is less than six weeks or so along, it may be the only way to even see it.

Nor did I imply that they are the same thing. But even Gov. Bob McDonnell and other Republicans said that the original bill did mandate a transvaginal ultrasound if an abdominal ultrasound was insufficient.

RenownedCurator:I've had those ultrasounds a number of times and they've never been painful, so I think a lot of it is about how good the technician is, not anything inherently wrong with the technology itself.

And when the abortion is for a pregnancy caused by rape, forcibly and violently inserting a long phallic-like object into the rape victim's vagina might not be the greatest idea.

Yes, I'm aware that some technicians are better than others in this regard, but it's not like a patient can watch a demonstration first to decide if they should go to a different clinic or request a different technician.

haolegirl:tlars699: HaywoodJablonski: doloresonthedottedline: sigdiamond2000: Slackfumasta: How is this different from forcing women to have intra vag ultrasound to force them to hear the heartbeat? It's still government interfering in personal medical affairs.

Just because your side does it doesn't make it right.

If you consider abortion an infectious disease, it's exactly the same.

Also if you consider having a wand shoved up your lady bits the same as having to watch a video for an hour. TOTALLY the same.

/very pro-choice//would actually be totally okay with a neutral video explaining the different abortion procedures and adoption choices, as long as it also mentioned the risks of continuing a pregnancy///no chance in hell it wouldn't be politicized as shiat though

I've watched lots of videos of women getting wands shoved on their ladybits. They seem to enjoy it!

Those wands are made for commercial profit and typically aren't covered with a too loose condom, too thin and too long to be any sort of "fun".

Like every other gynecological medicinal tool, they aren't in anyway "fun", and kind of painful to experience. The ultrasound wands themselves are also a camera, with a trigger on the wand. So it gets shoved inside you, and clicks, with each click very easily felt- It's like you're getting shot in the vagina.

I don't want to get shot in the vagina, even with a camera. At least not again.

Um...wtf are you talking about??? I had a tv ultrasound yesterday at the local hospital, it doesn't hurt in the least! A PAP smear is worse imo.

Pretty sure it depends on who does it. My mom had an ultrasound like that (she has a cyst or something, I dunno) and it was excruciating, so bad she was flinching nonstop, and the doctor and the person doing it didn't even pay attention to her saying it hurt. Had another one recently and it didn't hurt at all.

Walosi:doloresonthedottedline: ///no chance in hell it wouldn't be politicized as shiat though

A few years ago friend of mine had an abortion after her fetus was diagnosed with some pretty severe deformities from a random genetic mutation not screened for in an earlier amnio. Part of the process of getting government approval involved watching an online video. The sucky part was, here she was with a horribly deformed fetus, that if it lived would never be normal and most probably life would be painful and short, and she was forced by law to watch a video about normal childhood development (up through teens) ie. "this is what your child will be doing at age 12 years old if you allow it to live!"

This is why I find it weird that people believe in an omniscient god. If one existed, politicians would be struck down the second things like this happened.

katerbug72:That makes me want to strangle her. How many people did she infect at the school?

Just as a random addendum to that story: two years ago, I was talking with my GP about her doing my flu shot and asked her if there were any other vaccinations I should be getting while we were talking about it? "Yes. There's a Whooping Cough epidemic in a bunch of schools out west..." (We're about as east as east gets, so everywhere in NA is out west for us.) "... so that one's kind of important for teachers to renew this year."

kiwimoogle84:RedVentrue: HotWingConspiracy: Slackfumasta: How is this different from forcing women to have intra vag ultrasound to force them to hear the heartbeat? It's still government interfering in personal medical affairs.

Just because your side does it doesn't make it right.

Abortions aren't contagious. And yes, we're right.

Pro abortion people should be happy about anti vaxers. You obviously want to kill more kids right?

People who are pro- choice aren't necessarily pro abortion. I think elective abortions without a medical reason are a horrible thing to do, and I could never consider it, but I'm not going to tell someone else what's right for them.

That being said, they're apples and oranges.

By that reasoning; it's perfectly fine for parents to not vax their kids. Give 'em a choice?

I'd like to add a quarantine provision to that law. If after jumping through the hoops they still don't want to vaccinate, make it a requirement that they be placed under quarantine if they do contract a contagious disease. That's what they used to do.

RedVentrue:By that reasoning; it's perfectly fine for parents to not vax their kids. Give 'em a choice?

Was it ever stated that parent's don't have a choice?

This law only makes parents aware of the facts and risks of their choice not to vaccinate, just as some states have passed laws to make women aware of the facts and risks of their choice to end a pregnancy.

Not long ago, the liberals were all up in arms about the issue of compulsory vaccinations.Having the scar on your shoulder was a sign that you were a mindless tool of the establishment and were no better than cattle.Anything the government did was seen with suspicion, even if it was for the good of the society as a whole and it drove a generation to demand government accountability and to value the inclusiveness of all people.It's how we got mandatory diversity, equal opportunity employment, welfare, a convoluted, politically motivated census, and everything the government prints is now in more languages than most people can even identify. The list goes on and on.The point is, we were striving for a more homogeneous society but that became a target for those who felt they were hopelessly disenfranchised from that society. Great strides were made to remedy that. It's not perfect yet and it could never be.Now, unfortunately, society has gone 180 degrees and sees government as the way to force their views on those they see as lesser than themselves. The exact same thing that they were supposedly victims of in the past.

Scary thing is, there doesn't seem to be any voice of reason, understanding, or compassion, coming from the left at all.

You either stand with them or you're against them and they've a great big bag of names to brand you with if they even think you are not 100% on their side.Where before we saw public outcry for education,equality and justice as a way to uplift everyone and foster understanding, now we hear, "Abolish their religion, shut down their businesses, tax them into poverty, publicly humiliate them, take their children, and force them into rehabilitation!"

The future is yours, do with it what you will. From my point of view, you are getting off to a really crappy start.

doloresonthedottedline:haolegirl: tlars699: HaywoodJablonski: doloresonthedottedline: sigdiamond2000: Slackfumasta: How is this different from forcing women to have intra vag ultrasound to force them to hear the heartbeat? It's still government interfering in personal medical affairs.

Just because your side does it doesn't make it right.

If you consider abortion an infectious disease, it's exactly the same.

Also if you consider having a wand shoved up your lady bits the same as having to watch a video for an hour. TOTALLY the same.

/very pro-choice//would actually be totally okay with a neutral video explaining the different abortion procedures and adoption choices, as long as it also mentioned the risks of continuing a pregnancy///no chance in hell it wouldn't be politicized as shiat though

I've watched lots of videos of women getting wands shoved on their ladybits. They seem to enjoy it!

Those wands are made for commercial profit and typically aren't covered with a too loose condom, too thin and too long to be any sort of "fun".

Like every other gynecological medicinal tool, they aren't in anyway "fun", and kind of painful to experience. The ultrasound wands themselves are also a camera, with a trigger on the wand. So it gets shoved inside you, and clicks, with each click very easily felt- It's like you're getting shot in the vagina.

I don't want to get shot in the vagina, even with a camera. At least not again.

Um...wtf are you talking about??? I had a tv ultrasound yesterday at the local hospital, it doesn't hurt in the least! A PAP smear is worse imo.

Pretty sure it depends on who does it. My mom had an ultrasound like that (she has a cyst or something, I dunno) and it was excruciating, so bad she was flinching nonstop, and the doctor and the person doing it didn't even pay attention to her saying it hurt. Had another one recently and it didn't hurt at all.

If you have a preexisting painful medical condition, idk if it really matters who the technician is. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Tv ultrasound, as performed as part of an OB scan only, doesn't hurt. The wand is inserted approximately 3" at most.For other procedures, it possibly may need to be inserted further, idk, but this topic was specifically about an OB ultrasound done trans-vaginally.

RedVentrue:kiwimoogle84: RedVentrue: HotWingConspiracy: Slackfumasta: How is this different from forcing women to have intra vag ultrasound to force them to hear the heartbeat? It's still government interfering in personal medical affairs.

Just because your side does it doesn't make it right.

Abortions aren't contagious. And yes, we're right.

Pro abortion people should be happy about anti vaxers. You obviously want to kill more kids right?

People who are pro- choice aren't necessarily pro abortion. I think elective abortions without a medical reason are a horrible thing to do, and I could never consider it, but I'm not going to tell someone else what's right for them.

That being said, they're apples and oranges.

By that reasoning; it's perfectly fine for parents to not vax their kids. Give 'em a choice?

Apples and oranges, I said. Abortions don't affect anyone but you and the kid you're aborting. Non-vaccinated kids affect society as a whole.

Dr Dreidel:The one, teensy, tiny little problem I have with this is based on my own experience, a third of the world away.

When I started at UMD, I had to provide them proof of my vaccination records. I thought I had, but apparently, there was some piece missing, so they didn't have proof I was up-to-date (IIRC) on my MMR. (Funny enough, working at a hospital the year prior, I'd had to have my titer upped, since the MMR vaccine level was too low.)

Anyway, rather than get stuck AGAIN for the same damn thing (or, more likely, waiting for my doctor's office to RE-re-send the paperwork), I signed the "I have objections" paper and went on my merry.

// if I'd had to watch a video on top of that, it'd be worse than 47 Benghazis happening at the IRS building where they target conservatives

So you didn't keep good track of your medical records, and somehow couldn't get copies transferred from the hospital you worked at?

I'm OK with you sacrificing an hour of your time, or getting re-stuck, or choosing to go elsewhere.

/ I sound sanctimonious but I have the same problem// I've had all the vaccinations you need to go to Africa, but no clue where to get firm record

udhq:Ficoce: This is ignorant and stupid. Why legislate something that isn't even a problem? Politics? Because it makes you feel good? Because we want to keep up with the "Jones'" of other states that have too many laws? We didn't have any cases of Chickenpox last year and only one case of measles. The only mentionable disease problem we have is Syphilis,

So your argument is that we shouldn't vaccinate kids because vaccines are too effective?

No, actually my argument is the facts show the way it was done before seems to work. After living here 50 years I seem to recall parents getting their kid inoculated without government involvement. Those that didn't? Well, where are the results of that? I look to the CDC, the people that keep track of this type of thing. Nothing odd there. No kids dying in the streets and stats look about the same everywhere within a few points.

So, where did did this hate come from toward people, yet to be named, who supposedly don't vaccinate their kids? And where did all this love for vaccinations come from? Vaccinations that sometimes don't work? And many times cause side effects that other nameless people say are negligible?

I might point to one heartfelt blog from someone that claimed to be a hippies kid; not being vaccinated that screwed everything about their life up, went viral, and touched the happy bits of people everywhere.

Now we have legislation, based not on need or common sense, but emotion. Bet if I dig deep enough I would find a Pharma lobby with fingers in the bill, internet propaganda, and the resulting hate - over nothing.

bborchar:meat0918: D135: This is a great follow-up to that article last week about how a lot of people who don't vaccinate their kids aren't necessarily anti-vaxers, just lazy farks who don't want to drive across town during work hours to get their own farking crotch fruit vaccinated.

Gotta citation.

It would kinda make me feel better if they were informed but lazy rather than misinformed and zealous about spreading that misinformation.

Ficoce:No, actually my argument is the facts show the way it was done before seems to work. After living here 50 years I seem to recall parents getting their kid inoculated without government involvement. Those that didn't? Well, where are the results of that? I look to the CDC, the people that keep track of this type of thing. Nothing odd there. No kids dying in the streets and stats look about the same everywhere within a few points.

You know why there are less cases of polio today, It's not from taking vaccines, it's because cases previously diagnosed as polio are now classified as 'cerebral palsy', as 'Guillain-Barre syndrome' and even as 'muscular dystrophy.' Some are now called 'Hand, Foot and Mouth Disease', which can also cause paralysis. Recently the Coxsackie virus was found in cases of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, which also can result in very polio-like symptoms of paralytic muscle damage. Follow the money.

HawkEyes:I am massively pro choice and massively pro vaccine but this does give me the same icky feeling as those laws requiring you to get wanded or chat with a doctor before getting an abortion.

There is a huge difference between chatting with your doctor and being forced to have a TV ultrasound. You shouldn't lump them together, you are only making the lunatics feel like you are on their side.

the ha ha guy:Ficoce: No, actually my argument is the facts show the way it was done before seems to work. After living here 50 years I seem to recall parents getting their kid inoculated without government involvement. Those that didn't? Well, where are the results of that? I look to the CDC, the people that keep track of this type of thing. Nothing odd there. No kids dying in the streets and stats look about the same everywhere within a few points.

Herd immunity.

Thanks! Guess that proves there really wasn't a problem to legislate after all. The people of Oregon actually immunized themselves enough without government involvement.

Ficoce:Thanks! Guess that proves there really wasn't a problem to legislate after all. The people of Oregon actually immunized themselves enough without government involvement.

Herd immunity only works when a large enough percentage of the population gets immunized.

Thanks to Oprah and her porn star BFF, that percentage is threatening to dip below the required threshold. When that happens, the disease will spread far enough that it can mutate and attack everyone, even those who have been already been immunized.

Also, watching a short video is not "government involvement", it's just a counter-argument to those who insist that the porn star knows more about disease control than the CDC. People are still completely free to make their own choice, as long as they're informed of the alternative. It's really no different than the anti-abortion videos women are forced to watch before getting an abortion.

Let them do whatever they want, this is 'murica dammit. Just make sure all of them are rounded up and forced to live together in little plague villages away from the rest of us. Throw the people who want to do meth/crack/heroine legally, and watch too much Jackass and reality TV in there too.

STOP trying to save people from themselves and thwart Darwin people. Your misplaced, unearned kindness is the downfall of western civilization.

Let them do whatever they want, this is 'murica dammit. Just make sure all of them are rounded up and forced to live together in little plague villages away from the rest of us. Throw the people who want to do meth/crack/heroine legally, and watch too much Jackass and reality TV in there too.

STOP trying to save people from themselves and thwart Darwin people. Your misplaced, unearned kindness is the downfall of western civilization.

Aestatis:Dr Dreidel: The one, teensy, tiny little problem I have with this is based on my own experience, a third of the world away.

When I started at UMD, I had to provide them proof of my vaccination records. I thought I had, but apparently, there was some piece missing, so they didn't have proof I was up-to-date (IIRC) on my MMR. (Funny enough, working at a hospital the year prior, I'd had to have my titer upped, since the MMR vaccine level was too low.)

Anyway, rather than get stuck AGAIN for the same damn thing (or, more likely, waiting for my doctor's office to RE-re-send the paperwork), I signed the "I have objections" paper and went on my merry.

// if I'd had to watch a video on top of that, it'd be worse than 47 Benghazis happening at the IRS building where they target conservatives

So you didn't keep good track of your medical records, and somehow couldn't get copies transferred from the hospital you worked at?

I'm OK with you sacrificing an hour of your time, or getting re-stuck, or choosing to go elsewhere.

/ I sound sanctimonious but I have the same problem// I've had all the vaccinations you need to go to Africa, but no clue where to get firm record

There are no vaccinations reqd to go to "africa".

I went there recently and was unable to find a dr or clinic who had any idea of what i needed to get. My sis was living there and agreed no shots were needed.

Now if you are talking about a specific country, like south africa, which has had recent outbreaks of certain diseases, you need those specific vaccs. Yellow fever vacc was reqd to even have a layover there.