"The Response" was a huge Dominionist prayer event led by Rick Perry, Governor of Texas. America's problems, he argued, could only be solved now through prayer and divine intervention. How's that whole loving god thing working out for Texas?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

If your god is incapable of helping, it clearly isn't all powerful.

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Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

If your god could stop the wildfires but doesn't want to, it's kind of a major fucking asshole psychopath.

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Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Good question, Epicurus. If it could and would, there's no reason why the fires would still be raging.

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Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

If your god can't do shit nor wants to, why exactly are you praying to it?

Or the last option...your god just doesn't fucking exist. You might as well pray to the tooth fairy for rain to come. Maybe Santa could build you some sort of giant cloud-seeding toy. Have you tried praying to Thor? Maybe he could use Mjollnir to snuff out the flames.

They have destroyed over 1000 homes and killed several people. Texas is suffering from one of the worst droughts in its history and they prayed for rain. Wildfires seem like the opposite of that. Don't be obtuse.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

They have destroyed over 1000 homes and killed several people. Texas is suffering from one of the worst droughts in its history and they prayed for rain. Wildfires seem like the opposite of that. Don't be obtuse.

Tell me, what is the time limit on prayers? What is a reasonable amount of time for one to be answered?

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Hah. Yes, some day it will rain in Texas. You clearly will ignore all the fires between now and then and claim divine intervention and that prayers were answered.

Pray for event that will certainly happen at one point in the time in the future. Claim god did it. Retarded.

It's like all the fucking idiots who see one survivor on a plane crash and claim it was a miracle from god that the one person lived. EVERYONE ELSE FUCKING DIED. IT WAS NO FUCKING MIRACLE. You religious people are so insane.

Anyway, do you really think that your own god is either impotent or stupid enough to let wildfires ravage over 1000 homes and kill several people specifically after people begged your god for rain? Stop making excuses for your shitty god (who doesn't exist).

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Hah. Yes, some day it will rain in Texas. You clearly will ignore all the fires between now and then and claim divine intervention and that prayers were answered.

Pray for event that will certainly happen at one point in the time in the future. Claim god did it. Retarded.

It's like all the fucking idiots who see one survivor on a plane crash and claim it was a miracle from god that the one person lived. EVERYONE ELSE FUCKING DIED. IT WAS NO FUCKING MIRACLE. You religious people are so insane.

Anyway, do you really think that your own god is either impotent or stupid enough to let wildfires ravage over 1000 homes and kill several people specifically after people begged your god for rain? Stop making excuses for your shitty god (who doesn't exist).

So religious people are:

Retarded
Insane

And by inference to other comments, stupid and delusional as well.

Feel better? I know I do...

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

Hah. Yes, some day it will rain in Texas. You clearly will ignore all the fires between now and then and claim divine intervention and that prayers were answered.

I will?

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Pray for event that will certainly happen at one point in the time in the future. Claim god did it. Retarded.

Tell someone what he will claim before he has claimed anything. Retarded.

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It's like all the fucking idiots who see one survivor on a plane crash and claim it was a miracle from god that the one person lived. EVERYONE ELSE FUCKING DIED. IT WAS NO FUCKING MIRACLE. You religious people are so insane.

How do you know it wasn't? Who knows what path that person will take. Just because we don't know the reason that person lived doesn't mean there isn't one.

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Anyway, do you really think that your own god is either impotent or stupid enough to let wildfires ravage over 1000 homes and kill several people specifically after people begged your god for rain? Stop making excuses for your shitty god (who doesn't exist).

I think that we don't understand God's reasons all of the time, nor are we meant to. Your problem is that you seek to understand that which we cannot.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Your claim is that God doesn't exist because people die and He doesn't give us whatever we want whenever we want it?

No...
We claim god doesn't exist because there has never been any evidence of his existence.

The claims of the "believers" (at least the ones that reference The Bible) would have one believe that "God" is loving and compassionate ... you know... the kind of being that lets his children burn to death in a wildfire that he (supposedly) has the power to prevent.
So even the god they describe and claim to believe in ... well... he obviously doesn't exist. (If there is a god, it's not at all like what they worship and describe to the rest of the world.)

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

Retarded ?... not because of their belief in god, but I would imagine that there are a handful of "believers" who would be classified as "retarded" if we still used that term. (and the same percentage of non-believers.)

Insane ? ... by most definitions, then yes... believing a god exists with no evidence to support that claim and tons of evidence to refute it... that would lead me to question your sanity. Does that mean your are totally non-functional? Of course not...

Stupid ? ... again... supporting evidence would show that you were at least using your brain when you decided to believe in a god.

Delusional ? ... again, you tell yourself (and sometimes others) to believe something without ANY supporting evidence and lots of contrary evidence... is that NOT delusional???

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

We (as in humanity) cannot know what happiness is unless we know what sadness is...

I'd be perfectly fine not knowing what happiness (did you see the Beverly Hillbillies movie? ) is if that meant I didn't know what misery was as well!
Your god is just as much a prick for making me happy, if that means he has to make me miserable as well.... God could have left out both.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

I'd be perfectly fine not knowing what happiness (did you see the Beverly Hillbillies movie? ) is if that meant I didn't know what misery was as well!
Your god is just as much a prick for making me happy, if that means he has to make me miserable as well.... God could have left out both.

You are what you are. Through your own decisions.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

You know, it occurs to me that we have thread after thread serving as thinly veiled attacks on religion/God in general. These threads are not started for discussion and debate purposes. Rather, they are venues to call ALL believers stupid, ignorant, retarded and insane. We had the WTC cross thread, and now this one...both started by the same person. Both threads clearly were started to proselytize anti-religion views. From a guidelines point of view, this is pretty damn close violating both "Rule 1" and "Rule 2." The content also borders on hate speech, which is a violation of the forum rules themselves.

Granted, we all have our views--and sometimes threads are similar or duplicate themselves. For example...when Bush was in office, we had a lot of Bush threads about things he was doing. Now we have a lot of Obama threads about what he's doing. That's fine. Those are debates about issues and actions, and political parties. They might get inflammatory titles or what not, but the last time I checked, they weren't just venues for calling people fucking stupid. These threads seem to be exactly that, and it shouldn't be allowed.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

You know, it occurs to me that we have thread after thread serving as thinly veiled attacks on religion/God in general. These threads are not started for discussion and debate purposes. Rather, they are venues to call ALL believers stupid, ignorant, retarded and insane. We had the WTC cross thread, and now this one...both started by the same person. Both threads clearly were started to proselytize anti-religion views. From a guidelines point of view, this is pretty damn close violating both "Rule 1" and "Rule 2." The content also borders on hate speech, which is a violation of the forum rules themselves.

Granted, we all have our views--and sometimes threads are similar or duplicate themselves. For example...when Bush was in office, we had a lot of Bush threads about things he was doing. Now we have a lot of Obama threads about what he's doing. That's fine. Those are debates about issues and actions, and political parties. They might get inflammatory titles or what not, but the last time I checked, they weren't just venues for calling people fucking stupid. These threads seem to be exactly that, and it shouldn't be allowed.

You've got to admit. If someone honestly believed in the FSM, they would be pretty dumb, right? Why should we feel any different about any other deity, of whom there is absolutely zero subjective evidence? It's pretty dumb, honestly.

It's like smokers. They know it's bad for their health. They know it wastes money. They know it annoys the fuck out of people who don't smoke, and there's ample evidence that it harms others' health as well.

As time has gone by, you have become a caricature of yourself BR. I have never been happier to be a Christian.

"National security" as envisioned by the GOP is not a strength, it's a condemnation. Not only does it cost us billions, it has fucked up air travel and taken away far more liberty and freedom than anything in the nation since before the Civil Rights Movement.

The GOP should be ashamed.

So yeah, let's talk about Obamacare, which is actually trying to help people (half assedly, because it is, after all, the right winger Obama in charge).

As time has gone by, you have become a caricature of yourself BR. I have never been happier to be a Christian.

Rick Perry, Michelle Bachman, et al. invite this criticism on themselves and all Christians by being so in-your-face about their beliefs. If it's fair game to hold "The Response," it's fair game to say that prayer is useless and your god didn't stop any wildfires because he doesn't exist.

The distraction in America IS religion. If not for religion, people wouldn't vote against their own interests and elect these Tea Party nutters.

Want to know why I brought up wildfires? BECAUSE WILDFIRES ARE HAPPENING. NOW. And Rick Perry slammed FEMA but now begs for FEMA to help his state. Rick Perry slashed funding to the volunteer fire departments whose job is to fight these wildfires. Rick Perry held a giant prayer rally saying only divine intervention can help this country. This topic is relevant and fair game. Deal with it.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

"National security" as envisioned by the GOP is not a strength, it's a condemnation. Not only does it cost us billions, it has fucked up air travel and taken away far more liberty and freedom than anything in the nation since before the Civil Rights Movement.

The GOP should be ashamed.

That's why I said perceived GOP strength. There's no question this issue's been really messed up on both sides, and deserves to be seriously discussed as 9/11 is in the news. But starting lame threads intermingling health care discussions with 9/11 are just silly and are just flamebait.

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Originally Posted by tonton

So yeah, let's talk about Obamacare, which is actually trying to help people (half assedly, because it is, after all, the right winger Obama in charge).

(I'll look away from the silly assertion at the end.)

I never criticized health care discussions, which are important and you know as well as anyone that I take part in them myself.

But my contention here is that BR has gone from championing certain issues and values here to flat out trolling, starting fights in every thread he starts that are meant not to inform or convert but to insult and degrade.

We all get animated about certain issues (and around here it's usually the same issues) and barbs fly back and forth. I have no problem with that.

But to kickoff every thread you start with an insult and mockery of the other side suggests that you really have no interest in engaging anyone who is on the opposite side in a meaningful discussion. I get angry and silly too, at times. But only very few start off at that position.

This isn't a personal blog. It's a forum for discussion. Differences are allowed, celebrated and expected. But every time starting right off from a position of mockery, insult and condescension only devalues this place.

Frank, if you do not like the subject matter of my threads, you are free not to respond. There is nothing in the rules against mocking ideas. The idea of people praying for rain, receiving wildfires, and not counting that as a strike against the validity of their beliefs in their gods is absolutely, 100% worthy of mockery.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

...
(C) Then I would simply in my own way, pray for humanity to understand the reasons why this has happened and what can be done to alleviate or prevent further suffering of people and the environment.
...

Why?... What has anyone ever seen that would lead them to believe there is anyone/thing to pray TO. What has lead anyone to believe that prayer does a damn thing?... (The closest thing prayer is to being "real" is as a form of meditation/introspection/focus... there is no evidence to suggest that any divinity is listening.)

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

Why?... What has anyone ever seen that would lead them to believe there is anyone/thing to pray TO. What has lead anyone to believe that prayer does a damn thing?... (The closest thing prayer is to being "real" is as a form of meditation/introspection/focus... there is no evidence to suggest that any divinity is listening.)

Prayer is an effective placebo. It does lower stress levels and offers people motivation and patience.

Rick Perry, Michelle Bachman, et al. invite this criticism on themselves and all Christians by being so in-your-face about their beliefs.

By talking about God? How are they any more "in your face" than YOU?

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If it's fair game to hold "The Response," it's fair game to say that prayer is useless and your god didn't stop any wildfires because he doesn't exist.

Sure, unless you do it in every stinking thread while trying to pretend each topic is unique.

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The distraction in America IS religion. If not for religion, people wouldn't vote against their own interests and elect these Tea Party nutters.

That doesn't even make sense. The Tea Party doesn't find its roots in religion, but in fiscal sanity.

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Want to know why I brought up wildfires? BECAUSE WILDFIRES ARE HAPPENING. NOW. And Rick Perry slammed FEMA but now begs for FEMA to help his state. Rick Perry slashed funding to the volunteer fire departments whose job is to fight these wildfires. Rick Perry held a giant prayer rally saying only divine intervention can help this country. This topic is relevant and fair game. Deal with it.

If you want to trash Rick Perry for doing the things you claim, that's fine. That is not the real topic here, though.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

You've got to admit. If someone honestly believed in the FSM, they would be pretty dumb, right?

The FSM was deliberately made up by a guy who was trying to mock the existence of God. Your example is invalid.

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Why should we feel any different about any other deity, of whom there is absolutely zero subjective evidence? It's pretty dumb, honestly.

You meant objective, but I would disagree there is no evidence. To the millions of believers around the world, there is much evidence. To me, there is much evidence.

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It's like smokers. They know it's bad for their health. They know it wastes money. They know it annoys the fuck out of people who don't smoke, and there's ample evidence that it harms others' health as well.

Yet they still do it.

Dumb.

That's a pretty poor analogy.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson

Me personally?... No harm done.
But for society as a whole? ... I'm of a different opinion.

A small child... In America, most are told a myth about Santa Clause... It's harmless, it's a way to get them to behave occasionally. But as the child grows up, he needs to realize that it's not real... It's a myth... It served a purpose as a child, but to continue believing in it would impaire his ability to function in society. If he really took it to heart as an adult, it might cause him to pick fights with others, or cause others to pick fights with him... (perhaps it's safe to assume that if he holds on to those childish beliefs, he'll also hold on to childish attitudes for dealing with others.)
Society as a whole would be better off without god. In reality, the adverse affects are caused more by religion than by god... Except... How do you separate the two?... One can't exist without the other.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

Me personally?... No harm done.
But for society as a whole? ... I'm of a different opinion.

A small child... In America, most are told a myth about Santa Clause... It's harmless, it's a way to get them to behave occasionally. But as the child grows up, he needs to realize that it's not real... It's a myth... It served a purpose as a child, but to continue believing in it would impaire his ability to function in society. If he really took it to heart as an adult, it might cause him to pick fights with others, or cause others to pick fights with him... (perhaps it's safe to assume that if he holds on to those childish beliefs, he'll also hold on to childish attitudes for dealing with others.)
Society as a whole would be better off without god. I. Reality, the adverse affects are caused more by religion than by god... Except... How do you separate the two?... One can't exist without the other.

And that is your problem, the two are married to each other. That is not what was intended.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi