Author
Topic: Western Rite Orthodox... (Read 18167 times)

Before I posted this, I did a "OC" search to see if any lists existed on this topic, but sadly, none existed.

I have been thinking that if I do convert to Orthodoxy, I would like to eventually join a Western Rite parish (though I'll probably be baptised by the Greeks or Serbs, both Orthodox none-the-less.)

I am aware that many of the canonical Orthodox churches accept or tolerate Western Rites; what churches might not tolerate this small (but slightly growing) group of "Western Orthodox"?

God bless.

Logged

If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

I don't know if any wouldn't "tolerate" them-- they're all in communion with them, of course. But I believe in the US the only jurisdiction with active Western Rite parishes is the Antiochian Archdiocese. And ROCOR, maybe... I think?

Marjorie

Logged

"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

I have read that there is a Western Rite ROCOR monestery in (I think?) Rhode Island. Other then that, the only WR I know of is with the Antiochians. The York Forum has a person or two associated with WR. I also know of a Blog by a WR deacon.

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I have a question for you, as I believe you to be a traditional Anglican, yes?

Now, I don't know if you've looked over the liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (the liturgy that has obviously taken some revisions when adapted to Orthodoxy): here is the main one I am getting my source from:

I don't see many differences between a traditional Anglican Mass andthis Western Orthodox Mass? If you have time, what differences do you see?

God bless.

Logged

If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

I am aware that many of the canonical Orthodox churches accept or tolerate Western Rites; what churches might not tolerate this small (but slightly growing) group of "Western Orthodox"?

"Tolerate" would be the right word in this case, sadly...there was a Greek bishop in the NW US (of blessed memory now, iirc) who sent out instructions to his priests that they were not to concelebrate w/WR priests if the opportunity arose. The general feeling I get from the OCA (judging from comments like Fr. Alexander Schmemman's) is that, while it's not technically wrong to do this, it may be...unwise. After all, the thought goes, with all the other hurdles we Orthodox in America have to deal with, why "complicate" matters further by "fragmenting" ourselves according to rite?

I find the first view to be abominable, the second to be an underestimation of most Orthodox Christians' ability to be flexible. To wall oneself off from canonically ordained fellow-priests is a serious affront to the unity of the Church, and to discourage or speak poorly of the WR because some would be uncomfortable makes it seem as though it were some insurmountable obstacle for Orthodox to overcome.

I personally think we're all capable of better.

As for the masses, there are two: the Gregorian adaptation and the adaptation of the 1928 BCP (known in WRO as the Rite of St. Tikhon). The ROST is incredibly similar to the present day traditional Episcopal service -- though Ebor will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong (and that is as it should be! ).

As for the masses, there are two: the Gregorian adaptation and the adaptation of the 1928 BCP (known in WRO as the Rite of St. Tikhon). The ROST is incredibly similar to the present day traditional Episcopal service -- though Ebor will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong (and that is as it should be! ).

I believe that the Rite of St. Tikhon is closer to the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and was based upon it, not on the 1979 BCP's traditional "Rite 1" liturgy.

Yes, the Rite of St. Tikhon is based on the 1928 BCP, not on Rite 1. It is also based on the Anglican Missal, which itself was based on the 1928 BCP, with additions/modifications from the Tridentine Roman Missal. Thus, you will find differences between St. Tikhon and 1928 such as the position of the Gloria in excelsis. There are also additions from the missal such as the Orate, fratres and the salutation before the Sursum corda that are not in 1928. Some of these differences/additions also made it into Rite 1, but that is coincidental. There are also some elements in St. Tikhon which were included/excluded to make it Orthodox, e.g., the strengthening of the epiklesis and no filioque.

The Rite of St. Gregory as done on the site linked is a Pre-V2 mass all in English. (I found that at the bottom of the page. )

The "Kyrie" is familiar because it's been used in Episcopalian churchs too. (I'd say that we use good music where ever we find it, but I'm afraid someone would accuse us of "Song rustlin' Pardner." ) Much of the service is still familiar to me though in a somewhat trimmed form. For example in one form of the Confession Anglicans, in my experience, say:

I confess to God Almighty, in the presence of all the Saints, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed, by my fault, by my own fault, by my own most grievous fault.

We don't mention St. Mary the Virgin, the angels and so forth as much. They are spoken of in other places such as at the conclusion of the Prayers of the People for instance. We do make the triple crossing (forehead, lips and heart) at the start of the Gospel reading.

It is St. Tikhon's Rite that is drawn from Anglican sources as has been pointed out.

If you'd like more analysis, I'll be glad to oblige.

Ebor

« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 05:46:43 PM by Ebor »

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Ok, so the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is more similar to the Anglican liturgy (with Orthodox revisions). I'm assuming then that the Liturgy of St. Gregory is based on the Roman Catholic pre-Vatican II Mass; where can I find information about that?

Logged

If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

Being a former Epsicopalian myself, I always did prefer Rite 1 to Rite 2 (which IMHO I hope no one makes an Orthodox Liturgy out of. Its too flowers and bunnies for my taste ). In such western parishes, do they have an Iconostas, or simply a communion rail and perhaps a rood screen, like in old Anglican and Episcopal Cathedrals, or hold on to the Iconostas of their traditional bretheren? Do they have a procession towards the alter? Is the choir in the balcony, or on the side of the alter? Do they use Traditional Orthodox Vestments or those of the Anglo-Catholic tradition? Just curious.

Being a former Epsicopalian myself, I always did prefer Rite 1 to Rite 2 (which IMHO I hope no one makes an Orthodox Liturgy out of. Its too flowers and bunnies for my taste ). In such western parishes, do they have an Iconostas, or simply a communion rail and perhaps a rood screen, like in old Anglican and Episcopal Cathedrals, or hold on to the Iconostas of their traditional bretheren? Do they have a procession towards the alter? Is the choir in the balcony, or on the side of the alter? Do they use Traditional Orthodox Vestments or those of the Anglo-Catholic tradition? Just curious.

My experience with WR is not large, but from what I've seen and read the churches are "western" in arrangements but with icons as well. (I think that some of the WR people would say that they are "traditional" too. But western tradtional. So that the clergy are wearing Traditional Vestments but not Byzantine ones:) )

I suspect that the choir goes where it will fit. I've seen Episcopal churches with them in balconies, transepts and in the choir area i.e. before the altar abut behind a rail or screen depending on the building.

I'm trying to find some on-line pictures, but I have to go out for a while. So maybe later.

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

This statement should be qualified. As with the Rite of St. Tikhon, the Rite of St. Gregory underwent some modifications to make it compatible with Orthodoxy. These were:

Removal of references to "merits of saints"

No filioque in the Creed

The insertion of the epiklesis from the Byzantine liturgy into the Roman Canon

The addition of the prayer "I believe O Lord, and I confess" (also from the Byzantine liturgy) prior to Communion

Yes, that's true for the Masses. However, the Evensong service out of St. Dunstan's Plainchant Psalter--an excellent rendition of the Benedictine Rule--has the prayer to the Father which implores His mercy "through the merits of Jesus Christ out Lord, who with Thee and the Holy Ghost, etc."

From the Western Rite churches with websites, I haven't seen any iconostasis; That would be inappropriate for a traditional Western setting (don't take that the wrong way, as iconostases [sp?] are extremely valuable).

From the pictures I've viewed, those parishes use altar railings. They are very simple, probably due to the small economic abilities of the parishes.

If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

Hm..........looks almost like thei nside fo a small Anglican parish alright. Alter rails, huh? Are they functional? Do the Western riters kneel while they recieve the Body and Blood? Nothing against that, just curious.

Also, I dont see a table of oblation. How is communion done? It is right there on the later without a great entrance with a alonger epiclesis? Enquiring minds want to know!

Ian Lazarus :grommit:

PS: Any more pictures of a Western Orthodox Church, especially durring liturgy, would be appreciated.

I am not fully aware of what most Orthodox terms are, as I am not Orthodox (not yet anyhow). But is the table of oblation a podium with an icon on it? Sorry...

Logged

If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

The table of oblation, in a traditional Orthodox church, is a small table, usually on the left corner (stage right) of the alter area behind the iconostas where the elements (bread, wine and water) are prepared and are brougt durring the great entrance in a procession to the alter proper.

Yes, that's true for the Masses. However, the Evensong service out of St. Dunstan's Plainchant Psalter--an excellent rendition of the Benedictine Rule--has the prayer to the Father which implores His mercy "through the merits of Jesus Christ out Lord, who with Thee and the Holy Ghost, etc."

Just a little side note!

Of course there is no problem with saying "the merits of Jesus Christ" in an Orthodox prayer. References to the merits of saints is another matter, however, and such references have been removed.

In our Western Rite mission we have no altar rail, as we are renting an upper room from a Methodist church. We have two large icons of Our Lord and Our Lady on stands between the altar and the congregation and many other icons on the walls. Communicants choose to stand or kneel. The priest stands in front of the altar with the Blessed Sacrament, flanked by two servers holding a cloth, and the communicants approach one by one to make their communion (or receive a blessing). Communion is administered by intinction, i.e., the priest dips the host in the chalice and then places it on the tongue of the communicant.

Our previous home was the chapel of an Eastern Rite Orthodox parish, so at that time we had an iconostasis.

I'm from St. Benedict of Nursia in Wichita Falls, TX. We take communion at the altar railing, first the Host, then the Blood. The Blood is carried by the deacon. The exception is at Easter, we form the big line and the elements remain stationary. We have a rood screen, the choir sits behind it with the rest of us- a matter of lack of space. I know at St. Peter's they have a choir loft- and a nice parish and building, but no rood screen, so maybe that is just a matter of taste. We don't have the big processions, but once again, that is a matter of space. I think they are going to pay off our temporary building before they start construction on a new one.

This Church uses the Rtie of St. Germain and has been under the MP, ROCOR, and Romanian Patriarchate succesively. The RP released them and they have been searching for a Patriarchate to associate with since then. St. John Maximovitch worked witht hem extensively I understand. They do not have much of a web presence.

Would that be unleavened bread? Obviously the RC use the unleavened bread to be as acuracy for The Last Supper, but the Western Rite has few Episcopal traditions, but I didn't the Episcipal Church uses flat bread.

All of the Episcopal churches I have ever been to have used unleavened bread/wafers.

In Christ,Aaron

Episcopal churches use wafers or pita type bread or leavened bread, I've even heard of using oaten bread for the Feast of St. Andrew (Scotland, you know.) It depends on the kind of service, how many people, the season, do people in the parish or altar guild bake it and so forth.

I remember one time many years go when someone had accidentally (and didn't notice it) gotten onion pita bread, as I recall. It was...surprising along with the wine.

Just to add another note, years ago and maybe still today, one question was "Port or Sherry" and I don't mean at tea time, but in the chalice. Different parishes, different availability. I haven't seen a Sherry-Parish in a long time, though

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

In such western parishes, do they have an Iconostas, or simply a communion rail and perhaps a rood screen, like in old Anglican and Episcopal Cathedrals, or hold on to the Iconostas of their traditional bretheren? Do they have a procession towards the alter? Is the choir in the balcony, or on the side of the alter? Do they use Traditional Orthodox Vestments or those of the Anglo-Catholic tradition? Just curious.

Dear Ian Lazarus,

There are those parishes of the western rite which will have a choir screen/Rood screen. This is the western version of what developed as the iconostasis in the east. The panels of the Rood Screen often bear images of the Saints, and you will still see these in mediaeval churches. All Saints', North Street in York had one installed in the last century. I must, therefore, respectfully disagree with ByzantineSerb's comment that iconostases would not be appropriate in a Western-rite Orthodox church. Rood Screens may go be a different name from iconostases, and they may be in a different style, but they both have the same origins and both serve the same purpose and so iconostases, whether called iconostases or Rood Screens, are definitely a part of the western tradition, and are certainly not inappropriate in a church that uses the western rite.

There will be a procession to the Altar, as this is the western Tradition, as you will, no doubt, recall from your Anglican days.

I am confused by your use of the term traditional Orthodox vestments. If, by that, you mean Eastern vestments, then the answer is no. They use Western vestements, which, of course, are just as Orthodox in origin as Eastern vestments. We must remember that, before the schism, the West followed its own rites and used its own vestments, just as the East did. Western rite Orthodoxy is not a new phenomenon, but rather, a restoration.

The link that ByzantineSerb has kindly provided to the modified version of the liturgy of S. Gregory is that liturgy in its continental Roman form, which, as has already been pointed out, is the Tridentine Mass of Rome, (with Orthodox modifications). There were a number of variations of this liturgy, and the one that was prevalent in the British Isles was the rite of Sarum. It was this that the Anglican Book of Common Prayer was based on in its versions of 1549, 1551 and 1662, and is also the version that the proposed revision of 1927/1928 was based on (although this most recent proposed revision was never authorised for use). This Sarum version is perhaps closer to pre-schism western Orthodoxy than the Tridentine one, certainly in terms of the vestments used (there were no fiddleback chasubles for a start!). It is the Sarum version (with some modifications) that is in use in ROCOR and a version may be found here:

Also, unlike the Tridentine version of the Rite of S. Gregory, the Sarum version does have an equivalent to the Great Entrance, in the offertor procession. The Sub Deacon and Clerk mix the chalice on one of the side altars during the Gradual, and at the offertory, there is a procession to this altar, led by the cross, lights and incense, where the Clerk collects the oblations in the offertory veil, and the procession returns to the high altar.

As a matter of interest, it may be worth mentioning that, unlike the Tridentine rite, the Sarum rite incorporated the blessing and distribution of bread immediately after the Mass, which is another similarity to the Eastern Rites. I think that by adopting Sarum as their expression of the western rite, ROCOR has made the right choice.

I'd certainly very much doubt that there's a western rite monastery here, though. I only actually know of three Orthodox monasteries in the country, two Russian ones in the south and one Romanian one in Gatten, Shropshire.

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Would that be unleavened bread? Obviously the RC use the unleavened bread to be as acuracy for The Last Supper,

Well the Gospel uses the word Artos, leavened bread, rather than the Greek word for unleavened bread. Also there is no evidence that unleavened bread was ever used in the Liturgy of the early Church and in fact the only mention made of unleavened bread being used in the Liturgy occurs during the 11th century in the West. In fact there are many reasons to believed that the West used leavened bread in the beginning. Particularly the Lorrha Stowe Missal in which the Host is divided up into many pieces to form a cross. I know that you can do this with unleavened wafers but the sheer number of pieces argues that it most like way a large leavened loaf that was used.

Also keep in mind that in the West they did originally have Prosphora or Singing-Bread which also argues that the bread for communion was prepared in a similar way to the East.

Also I just found this quote helpful with regards to the Lorrha Stowe Missal

Quote

The Bread

The bread used is leavened bread, as was once universal at the time the Church celebrated its unity and joy in the Resurrection of the dead and the life in the age to come. (Although Warren claims that unleavened bread was used, it would be impossible to perform the Immersion, Confraction, and Holy Communion as specified by the rubrics specifically given in the original text. Unleavened bread would either turn into mush that could not be broken into Particles and arranged on the Paten; or, if not able to absorb, it would not absorb the Precious Blood, shatter in the Confraction, not be cut with a knife, and need to be chewed with the molars.) Although the Host has been selected prior to the Mass, and blessed bread not used for Communion is divided into small pieces on a tray on the Credenza, the Host is not broken until the Fracture, nor divided into Particles until the Confraction; otherwise it could not be whole at the beginning of the Mass and broken in two at the Fracture.