I know that there is to be an inquiry, but
will the Minister accept its findings ? In the past, the Government have
put their pen through the findings of certain inquiries that they did not
like. What was the use ? Will the Minister say tonight that whatever may be
the result of investigations, the Government may be depended upon to ensure
that the inquiry's findings are implemented ? That is something that the
Minister cannot dodge. He comes from Scotland himself and must know
something of the agitation there.

All of us are concerned about the completed feasibility study into the
building of a new university of Ulster campus at Springvale in west
Belfast, which will require the injection of £100 million. There are
fears that money would have to be taken from other education projects in
Northern Ireland and its education budget. Perhaps the Minister could say
something about that tonight. People are worried as to how the continuing
revenue costs of such a university would be met.

There is the continuing threat of closure of small rural schools, and
continuing pressure on schoolteachers, parents and pupils from educational
reforms. I say to the Minister who is to reply, who has responsibilities
for education in Northern Ireland, that his reaction to deputations has
been appreciated. The Minister has listened, taken some propositions on
board and been helpful in many cases. However, there is much concern about
the educational issues that I mentioned. Northern Ireland still has a big
housing problem. Is the Minister prepared to review the amount of money
allocated to housing in the Province, which still has housing queues ? One
can find married couples with children who are still living with their in-
laws. At a home that I visited the other day, the whole family--mother,
father and four children--slept in one room. One would think it possible
for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive to do something, but it is not
prepared to purchase ground and build new houses in that area. People do
not want to leave the neighbourhood in which they were brought up, and they
should not have to do so. They should be rehoused in the same district. The
Housing Executive should immediately be given the proper resources to
undertake necessary work. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that.

As to roads, on 16 June the Under-Secretary said :

"I welcome the inward investment project to which the hon. Gentleman
referred and I recognise the importance of access to Larne port. We hope to
upgrade part of the road in 1997-98."--[ Official Report , 16 June 1994
; Vol. 244, c. 749.]

Which part of the road does the Minister intend to upgrade during that time
? The Minister who opened the debate, who told us that his colleague would
answer, must have been reading Hansard , or must have known what was in the
mind of his other colleague ; he was certainly very confident about what
was in the mind of the Minister of State who is sitting next to him this
evening. We have been given a date, and I wonder what will happen in 1997-
98.

What will happen to the road from Ballymena to Antrim, the A26 ? As Member
of Parliament for Antrim, North, I feel very aggrieved. The hospital for
which the land was purchased should have been our main hospital, but it was
taken from us. A firm promise was made that the roads to Antrim from
Ballymena and further north would be designed so that people who became ill
and had to be transported for half an hour, three quarters of an hour or an
hour would have good roads on which to travel. That promise has not been
kept.

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The Antrim hospital, which is now up and
running, is not sufficiently accessible to the people. It should be serving
an area from as far north as Ballymoney, and even Coleraine, down to the
borders of Antrim. Moreover, we were promised cars, ambulances and other
conveyances. A committee was set up to monitor what happened in Larne. When
people become ill in the night or have an accident, they are rushed to
Antrim ; the ambulance then leaves, and after receiving treatment those
people must sit in the hospital all night because there is no transport to
return them to Larne. That is happening repeatedly.

I hope that the Minister will tell us what he knows about the problems with
the new hospital in Antrim. If he knows nothing, perhaps he will make
inquiries and write to me. This is a serious matter, and it is coming to a
head : there will be more problems with people being taken to hospital and
simply left there.

I am also very concerned about the European rail link. The official map
that has been issued shows just one link, with Dublin ; there are branch
links elsewhere on the island of Ireland. I raised the matter by means of a
deputation, and the Commissioner said that he would look at it. I do not
know what the current position is.

I do know, however, that there is tremendous agitation in the Irish
Republic, which is trying to destroy the port of Larne. Larne is the second
largest port in the United Kingdom--a good port, which used European money
wisely and well. European Commissioners have taken photographs and
exploited the port, saying, "This is the way in which European money is
being used to benefit society." Now, the money that helped to make the port
what it is, will be sidetracked in an attempt to take the volume of traffic
away from Larne and keep it in the Republic.

As we know, the shortest sea route is across to Scotland. It is sad that
the rail link has been closed, for big business could be done. I trust
that, in their representations to Europe, Ministers will push for Larne's
status to be maintained. It was established with the aid of European money,
and has shown that it can produce the goods. I hope that we shall see a
fight for its salvation. If European funds for the Dublin to Holyhead route
are to be increased, let that be countered with similar funds to make the
roads to Larne what they ought to be.

Finally, I believe that the Royal hospital should be kept. Unfortunately,
it has a location problem, but one that the people of Northern Ireland have
weathered. Given its international standing, the hospital should be
preserved and helped. I think that there is a good place, too, for the City
hospital, and that the hospital appreciates that.

Patients from Cork can be operated on in the Royal Victoria hospital, while
patients from my constituency have to go to Scotland. There is something
wrong with that. No one in the medical world would challenge the capability
of the Royal hospital, whose surgeons and other professionals have the
highest qualifications and have proved it worldwide. Why should our people
have to travel to Scotland for operations, while people in the Republic can
use the facilities of the Royal Victoria hospital ? A hospital must serve
its own community first ; then, if it has places for others, it must serve
them. I hope that the Minister can give us more information about the
treatment

Column 618

of patients outside Northern Ireland when we
have the facilities in Northern Ireland, and beds in Northern Ireland
hospitals are being closed.

We are all very concerned about old people, and about the senior citizens'
homes over which there is now a question mark. The other day, at one of
those homes, I spoke to an old lady who was over 90. She told me, "I have
been here for more than 20 years and I should like to end my days here, but
I am told that I may have to be shifted away from the few friends I have
left in this community." Such action is not good for the aged, or for those
who should be looking after them. Let me issue a plea for sympathy and
concern for the aged in our Province : let us not close, willy-nilly, homes
that have done such good service to the community. There is much emphasis
on home care nowadays, but some people cannot go home because they need
care all the time. If they can be cared for at home and want to be there,
that is fine ; but the needs of some cannot be met through home care, and
we must provide for them.

Those are some of the matters that concern me. I hope that the Minister
will give them his attention.

8.9 pm

Mr. William Ross (Londonderry, East) : I begin by taking issue with
the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Stott), who said, in praising the Royal
Victoria hospital, that it was situated in the middle of the worst killing
ground in Europe. I know that we have our problems, but we have not yet
approached the level of killing in places such as Bosnia. I hope that, on
reflection, the hon. Gentleman will agree that his words were not as wisely
chosen as many of the rest of his remarks.

Mr. Stott : I acknowledge that I said that, but I had meant to say
"in the European Community". I acknowledge that in the past two or three
years we have seen dreadful scenes in some areas of Bosnia. Even the hon.
Gentleman would not deny, however, that in the past few years the area
around the hospital in Belfast has been a terrible place for people being
killed.

Mr. Ross : I acknowledge that, not least because the area is within
a square mile of the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast,
North (Mr. Walker) and the number of deaths has been horrendous. It would
wrong, however, to let folk outside Northern Ireland or even the United
Kingdom believe that the position is worse than it is. God knows, it is bad
enough--we do not have to add to the misery.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) discussed retirement
dwellings and the right to sell. No one should be under any delusions that
this is a difficult matter. Hon. Members will know that I am a farmer, so I
am well aware of the problem and of the extended family nature of the
farming community in Northern Ireland. Two or even three generations can be
resident on or near the family farm. I fear that, if we loosen the right to
sell too much, applications for other dwellings will be made in 10 or 20
years' time. The Minister is nodding and I am sure that note has been taken
of the matter. I hope that there will be some loosening of the right to
take tenants into such accommodation, which would often relieve farmers of
the problem for years. The matter is worthy of consideration.

While I am on the issue of planning, I should like to raise an issue that
has caused me some concern. A large

Column 619

housing development was constructed in my
constituency, after which other constituents found that water pressure had
disappeared from their homes. I made inquiries and was told that the Water
Executive was doing its best to remedy the problem and that, within the
next month or so, it would be remedied. When I made further inquiries, the
water service told me that the development was such that water demand would
be outside the range of the existing main and that the developer should
liaise with the Water Executive.

That is fair enough as far as it goes, but I hope that the provision of
public utilities such as water will be given greater consideration. Towns
such as Coleraine and Limavady are expanding like mad, but not enough
consideration is given by the planning authority at an early stage as to
whether a public utility--water, sewerage or electricity--will be up to the
job. That creates enormous problems for people moving into dwellings. I
should say that that is the first time in my 20 years in the House that
such a matter has been brought to my attention. If it is happening in my
constituency, I am sure that it is happening in others, and I see one or
two heads nodding in agreement. Some consideration should be given to
improving procedures to deal with such problems.

The next problem is of constituents who contract a rare medical condition.
I am sure that every hon. Member knows that there are an endless variety of
medical conditions, many of which are very rare. As it happens, this year
three totally new conditions have been brought to my attention. In the
first case, the individual was told by doctors, including the consultant at
the Royal Victoria hospital, that he had multiple sclerosis. It was then
discovered that he did not and that he was possibly the only person in
Northern Ireland with that particular disease, but that he could be cured
by a difficult and delicate operation. His family faced a horrendous time
in the period between the diagnosis and the operation.

The second case appeared to involve hlyasthema gravis--an awful auto-immune
disease that causes fluctuating, sometimes fatal, weakness. Again, the
individual involved suffered many problems. The third case involved a
constituent who I know personally and who had contracted dystonia, the
symptoms of which are very nasty. He and his wife were working. Over a
period of months, he suffered increasing and great pain. The family income
went down enormously because he had to leave his work. Like most young
couples buying a house, he was a comparatively young man. Doctors had some
difficulty identifying the condition. They also ran into a series of
problems in relation to the financial help to which they were entitled--a
problem that is common to the cases of the three individuals who wrote or
came to see me. Families in that position, often with no experience of how
the social security system works, face severe problems. They look to all
the statutory agencies for help and experience difficulty in receiving
disability living allowance, severe disability allowance, mobility
allowance and other benefits. As only the wife is working, they suffer an
horrendous drop in family income, which has a devastating effect on the
family.

I am not an expert in such matters. My hon. Friend the Member for Antrim,
South (Mr. Forsythe) knows a lot more about them than I do. The Government
must consider them because they involve distressing cases. It may not
always be true that hard cases make bad law, but sometimes they call for
rather more sympathy than is

Column 620

readily apparent to those of us who are
brought face to face with the consequences of such illnesses. The matter
goes much wider than that. So far this year, I have had three cases. Heaven
only knows what horrors await hon. Members at their next constituency
surgery or in the post tomorrow morning. I hope, therefore, that the
Government will consider the matter.

I have heard of one or two cases where students were involved in motor
accidents and were unable to continue their studies for some time, or
suffered an illness that rendered it impossible for them to return to their
studies. As they had not been paying national insurance contributions, they
could not draw the benefits that were available to other people. They
intend to return to their studies. Those involved in car accidents may, in
some cases, eventually receive some compensation, but they have to get from
where they are to that happy position. In the intervening period, some of
them are without any income and are totally dependent on their parents, who
are often incapable of supporting them.

Something needs to be done. I have corresponded with the Minister in regard
to one student. I hope that the problem will be resolved because it is
clearly a United Kingdom-wide problem. It needs to be looked at and dealt
with sympathetically to allow these young people some income while they are
recovering until, eventually, they can continue their studies. It would be
an enormous waste if those young people said that they were giving up their
studies and surrendering the possibility of grant.

The next matter has occupied quite a few column inches in my local
newspapers. It arises out of the large payments now being made for
electricity produced under the non-fossil fuel obligation. The Minister is
well aware that there has been a hullabaloo over the wind farm on Rigged
hill. There is some talk about what is happening at Corkey, but that is not
my immediate problem because it is in another constituency. There is
continuing concern and unease in the community in Limavady about the Rigged
hill project, although the council has decided that it will not raise any
objection, even after listening to the folk on both sides of the question
at a recent special meeting. It is interesting that the Northern Ireland
legislation appears not to require a formal environmental impact study. At
least in the Corkey case and in the case of Rigged hill, an informal report
was prepared. I have looked at the 1985 EC directive and at the United
Kingdom regulations that brought it into force in 1989.

It is interesting that two categories are covered under the EC directive
and the regulations. There is a need for reports on the water generation of
electricity and for generation through thermal stations. Indeed, the
legislation runs rather wider than that. Nowhere is wind generation
mentioned. We are told that we must take into consideration all the
developments that have an impact on the landscape, as the EC directive
says, and on the environment, as the regulations say--in civil servants'
eyes, those phrases may or may not mean the same thing--in terms of the
visual effect.

I have seen wind farms in Wales and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Anyone
who says that they are not intrusive is living in a dream world. The wind
farms can be seen from many miles away. In the report on Rigged hill, folk
were told that the windmills would be 30 m high. In fact, they will be 60 m
high--four or five times the capacity of the project originally mentioned.

Column 621

Sir John Wheeler indicated assent .

Mr. Ross : I see the Minister nodding. He is well aware of the fact.

The matter is not as simple as it appears and we need to take a careful
look at wind generation generally. Rigged hill is part of the escarpment
that runs from Benevenagh in the north to beyond the Glen Shane pass, a
distance of 20 to 25 miles. Every inch of that escarpment is a first-rate
place for a wind farm. Whenever I mentioned that to the planners, they
said, "Wind farms will not be built the whole way along." My immediate
reaction was, "Why not ?" It must be one of the best sites in the British
Isles for a series of wind farms.

We need to sit down and put on our thinking caps before going any further
down this road. The beauty of the countryside and its tourist potential are
such that we must have some regard for the visual impact. There are not
normally many folk on those hills, which are hundreds of feet high.
However, we must think rather more seriously about the whole matter than
has been the case hitherto.

The constituent who raised the matter with me pointed out that there was a
letter, which is mentioned in the documentation, which was sent to the B9
energy section from the Londonderry division of the town and country
planning service on 24 November 1992. There was also a letter to EM
Consultants on 21 May 1993. My constituent has been unable to see the
letters. I assume that, as they have been issued by a public body, they
should be available to the public. I should be grateful if the Minister
would give an undertaking to place them in the Library and then tell me
when they are there because I would like to see them.

Environmental impact studies have a whole series of regulations surrounding
them. They are supposed to be available to the public and copies are
supposed to be made available to the general public. Councillors are
supposed to be told about them. The reports prepared in these two cases
were allegedly available, but they were never advertised. No one knew that
the reports were available for examination. My constituent, who found out
about them more or less by accident and then went to have a look, is not
very happy. If we go down this road, the general public must be taken along
with us. They must be given an opportunity to object to anything that they
think might have a long-term detrimental effect on the landscape in which
they live. I hope that planners will be rather more open about such matters
in the future.

I want to touch on one or two other matters, not least the horrendous case
of pollution in the River Strule. As the House knows, I believe that work
keeps interfering with my angling. I am afraid that I do not get very much
angling done these days.

Mr. James Molyneaux (Lagan Valley) : Shame.

Mr. Ross : It is a shame--a dreadful shame. The duties of this place
and our duties to our constituents dictate that we must spend a lot of time
away from the river bank.

Unfortunately, someone let a large amount of wood preservative into the
Strule. As the Minister, who is also a keen angler, knows well, nine miles
of the river were poisoned to the extent that the water plants were killed.
It was not a happy situation. We were fortunate that the salmon smolts were
away, but that did not protect the resident fish or the following year's
salmon smolts in that area. It was a large kill.

Column 622

I believe that the source of the pollution
has been traced. I hope that remedial measures will be taken and that
measures will be put in hand to ensure that such an incident is extremely
unlikely to happen again. We have far too much pollution. Every year, we
have a whole catalogue of disasters. The people who are responsible wash
their hands in public and say, "We are very sorry that it happened. Please
leave us alone and we shall get on with the work." The reality is that many
people use the water for recreation, and they have put time and money into
their activities, often on a voluntary basis. It is just not good enough
that people seem to be able to walk away from these horrible pollution
incidents, which damage other people, and that they get off practically
scot-free.

I now turn to sub-head 3 of the vote for the Department of Finance and
Personnel, which refers to money being spent on community relations and
cultural traditions. It is all intended to improve relations between the
various sections of the community in Northern Ireland. We then find that
the way in which the Secretary of State intends to improve community
relations is to bow to the Irish republican demand that street names should
be put up in Irish. I do not know who advised the Secretary of State and I
do not know which Minister is responsible for the matter. It is just about
the daftest idea that has come out of the Northern Ireland Office for many
a day. Will the Government never learn that, if they take all those soft
stories at face value, all they do is annoy far more people than they
please ? I do not hear Irish spoken very often in the streets of Dungiven,
which I would have thought is one of the places where one may well expect
to hear it. I do not hear it in everyday use and I do not think that many
people do.

Since Irish has been taught and learned in Northern Ireland, it has been
for a blatantly sectarian and political purpose rather than an educational
one. If the Minister does not like that, he should go back and examine the
evidence and he would gladly come to the conclusion that my assessment is
correct. That proposal should be dropped and the money should be used for
something far more useful. While talking about how the Government may use
that money, may I point out that Limavady grammar school is still waiting
for the go-ahead for its building programme. That money would make a
favourable start in that process.

I hope that it will not be long before the Minister accepts the good advice
which arose from several quarters and from the General Synod of the Church
of Ireland--as it happens, it was held in Cork this year--where a number of
leading clergy drew attention to the nonsense of integrated schools in the
Northern Ireland context. We have been told that everybody has their
freedom. I well remember the roots of the whole idea of total parental
freedom of choice, rather than dealing with the schools in which there was
something wrong. I am aware that the Government are so heavily committed to
the idea that they are unlikely to change their mind, but if they had any
wit they would drop it and some of the other proposals and get on with
providing a proper education in every school in Northern Ireland. Then, if
people are anxious to go to good schools, they can go to state schools and
the voluntary grammar schools, which are largely integrated anyway.

I also hope that the Government have not lost sight of the need for the
Coleraine hospital, despite the diminished number of beds which,
apparently, are to be provided in Northern Ireland in a few years' time.

Column 623

8.31 pm

Sir James Kilfedder (North Down) : For a number of years I have been
fighting, and fighting relentlessly, on behalf of the Banks residential
home in Bangor in my constituency to prevent the closure of that excellent
home, which provides facilities for elderly people. I have been fighting to
stop the dispersal of the residents there--senior citizens--who have come
to regard the Banks as their own home.

A year ago, I presented a petition to Parliament, which was signed by many
thousands of people. In all, 16,000 local people have signed petitions for
the retention of that valuable facility in my constituency. I have written
numerous letters to the Secretary of State for Health, to her predecessors
and to the chairman of the Eastern health and social services board and
other officials. Yet the threat of the closure of Banks and the eviction of
the residents still hang over the heads of those vulnerable, elderly
people. I therefore take this opportunity once again of protesting in the
strongest possible terms at the inhumane way in which those people are
being treated.

It would indeed be unfortunate if the Banks residential home were closed.
It would be a traumatic experience for everyone in the home. For a group of
frail, elderly people, with an average age of 85, it is devastating, and
that devastation is being imposed on them by a body which is supposed to be
statutorily charged with their welfare. That is a mockery. I refer, of
course, to the North Down and Ards community health and social services
trust, which no longer seems to believe in democratic accountability to the
people that it is supposed to serve.

There is widespread community support throughout the North Down area for
the plight of those poor people. The fight to prevent the closure has been
organised and co-ordinated by a body of people known as the Friends of the
Banks, led by Mrs. Marion Smith, the chairman of the pressure group. I pay
tribute to her and her colleagues. The campaign is based not only on
emotion, although I must admit that I feel emotionally involved with those
unfortunate people who seem to be pawns of an unthinking bureaucracy, but
on the logical argument that there is a continuing need for the Banks. The
home provides a first-class facility for full-time residential care, for
respite care and as a base for a whole range of community support
facilities for the elderly.

Indeed, the local unit trust appeared to accept that the Banks residential
home is a first-class facility. Its own inspection team has given it top
marks as a first-class establishment, and I can confirm that from my
experience over the 24 years during which I have been a Member of
Parliament for the constituency of North Down. I have visited it frequently
each year, and I have long had connections with the Banks through meeting
its residents and meeting relatives there and attending some of the
functions there. I have always been impressed by the care and the
consideration shown by all the staff towards the residents, and I know that
that impression would be strongly endorsed by the residents and their
relatives.

Mr. William O'Brien : I appreciate the opportunity to intervene on
this important issue. The hon. Member for North Down (Sir J. Kilfedder) has
described the appalling situation over the application by the people who
form the trust. Is it not a fact that we are witnessing what we described
would happen--undemocratic, unrepresentative,

Column 624

unthinking people appointed to the trust by
the Minister ? Does not the hon. Gentleman feel that he should condemn the
way in which the trusts have been formed and the lack of democratic
accountability of those appointed trusts ?

Sir James Kilfedder : I readily adopt what the hon. Gentleman says
about the attitude of the people in that unit of management. It was my
opinion that they were there to serve the people. Certainly all the people
that I have met felt that the people appointed to the trust are not serving
them, the people of North Down, but are serving themselves and masters
elsewhere. They are there to serve the people--the patients, the elderly
and all those in need. In my view--I accept what the hon. Gentleman has
said--they are falling down on their duty and turning a deaf ear to the
pleas of people in this case : the supporters, the relatives and the
residents of the Banks residential home.

The only reason for suggesting the closure of the home is that the site is
a valuable one and its sale would partly provide the cash for alternative
community care facilities. I am not certain whether the cash would be used
wisely. I am sure that the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. O'Brien) would
echo that fear. The home is on a valuable site. The land, I understand, was
given by a private individual for the specific purpose of providing the
home. However, once the home is sold, developers may buy the land, but the
money from the sale may be wasted on some other project. I feel that it is
a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul if, in fact, the trust intends to
provide some other facilities, although I wonder whether, at the end of the
day, it will. Surely we have not reached the stage at which progress in
community care provision is achieved at the expense of the elderly and
vulnerable residents of the Banks.

Leaving aside the sense of outrage at the proposal, the consultation has
been abysmally handled by the unit trust. It has been forced to make
postponement after postponement because it has mishandled the consultation.
It was forced by the High Court to appoint an advocate to represent the old
people at the home. The latest postponement arose from representations by
the High Court about the way in which advocacy had been handled.

All the delays are simply adding to the trauma of the residents, who are
becoming increasingly upset and depressed. Indeed, my latest information is
that they are being given conflicting information by the unit trust about
the outcome of the legal proceedings. Surely the fact that the unit trust
has been endlessly forced to delay its procedures shows that the proposal
is seriously flawed. Why cannot those old people be taken out of their
misery by receiving an assurance that the Banks residential home will not
close ? The situation has become so unreasonable that I strongly urge the
Minister to intervene and to direct the unit trust that, in the interests
of the old people, the closure procedure should be indefinitely abandoned.

Rev. William McCrea (Mid-Ulster) : I am sure that the hon. Member
will be glad to know that many people throughout the House wholeheartedly
support his contention and his appeal to the Minister. I am sure that the
Minister, realising the strength of feeling in the House, will do something
about it.

Sir James Kilfedder : I am grateful for the support of my hon.
Friend. I hope that his words will be taken in by the Minister. Perhaps we
could have a positive response

Column 625

when he replies to the debate. If action is
not taken quickly, there will be a powerful feeling in Bangor and in the
rest of my constituency of North Down that no one in authority cares any
more. I am most anxious that elderly people should remain in their own home
as long as is humanly possible ; I have said that often in the House. It is
good for them to remain in the area that they know and where they have
friends and where their church and other facilities are located. However,
they need help with cleaning the house, making a main meal, lighting fires,
washing and maintenance of the garden. That means the provision of home
helps and other carers. Therefore, it is lamentable that home help hours
have been seriously reduced and elderly people are left with less support.
Our senior citizens are vulnerable at all hours of the day and night. I am
absolutely disgusted that they do not receive the help that their years of
service to the community entitle them to in the twilight of their life.

Elderly people are vulnerable in many ways. I drew attention only a short
time ago in the Chamber to the way in which some youths have behaved
towards elderly people. Greater action is needed. More police ought to be
provided to stop gangs of youths banging on the doors of elderly people's
houses late at night, throwing rubbish into their gardens, urinating on
their front doors, writing obscenities on their walls and so on. We ought
really to try to safeguard and look after our senior citizens. They deserve
not just compassion but support, and something must be done to protect them
and to give them the quality of life that they surely deserve.

8.44 pm

Mr. Clifford Forsythe (Antrim, South) : First, I draw the attention
of the Minister to the fact that, during the last Northern Ireland Question
Time, his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
referred to the A8 to Larne. If he looks up the reference, perhaps he will
find out precisely what are the plans for that road. I agree with what has
already been said about the importance of the Larne road and the A26, which
is essential to the north of the Province and to the new hospital in
Antrim.

Vote 2 of the Department of the Environment vote is for housing. We have
received a considerable number of complaints both by letter and in the
House about the inset fires fitted in Housing Executive houses. I have made
my views known on the matter. Many of the complaints were well justified,
although there was a great deal of scaremongering as well. I took the
matter up with the Housing Executive at the invitation of the Minister and
with the National Coal Board and the Coal Advisory Service. I found that
both bodies had been working hard to find out just what the problems were.
I have seen test rigs and I can tell the House that the investigations have
been exhaustive. Up to the present, they have been inconclusive in some
respects, but the Executive and the Coal Advisory Service have certainly
done their utmost to try to solve the problem. There is a problem with the
fires and a problem with the flues. Those problems have been investigated.
The point can certainly be made that the fires are not terribly handy for
the elderly people who use them. There is a tendency to keep out all the
draughts in a room. Unfortunately, to make a fire burn properly and keep
alight a certain amount of air is required.

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I welcome the fact that the Housing
Executive is now looking at a new open fire, similar to the old Baxi-type
fire, which draws in air almost artificially. I have great hopes for that
fire. It would certainly serve and please those people who wish to have an
open fire and at the same time run a given number of radiators, using fuel
which is suitable for clean air zones. I put those points on the record now
because in the past I have criticised the Housing Executive and the
Minister on the matter.

An allocation problem still exists in the Housing Executive. None of us
envies the job of the allocation officers because when they please one
person they disappoint a hundred, but there is a case to be made for a
return to giving some preference to local applicants. Unfortunately, if
there are empty houses--or voids, as the Housing Executive calls them--in a
given area, folk come in from all sorts of places to occupy them and local
applicants are turned down because those coming in from outside appear to
have greater priority. That matter should be examined. We should keep the
local people in the locality where they have been brought up and wish to
remain. I was interested to hear what the hon. Member for North Down (Sir
J. Kilfedder) said about care in the community. I certainly agree with all
that he said. However, if we are to have care in the community, the Housing
Executive also has a responsibility to provide proper housing for those
people. Elderly people who want to live in the community or who are being
asked to live in the community certainly cannot climb stairs or live in an
upstairs flat. They require suitable housing.

Mr. A. Cecil Walker (Belfast, North) : I thank my hon. Friend for
giving way on this important subject. Is he aware that pensioners and their
families have been prohibited from buying their Housing Executive homes,
although in some cases those homes may be in low-demand areas ?

Mr. Forsythe : I am aware of that, although I was made aware of it
only a short time ago. I understand--perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for
Belfast, North (Mr. Walker) will keep me right on this--that even if
pensioners have the cash to buy their home, the Housing Executive will not
allow them to buy it. That is unfair. If pensioners have the cash and can
buy a home without even getting a mortgage, I cannot see what objections
there could be. I am pleased that my hon. Friend has raised that matter.

We have certain types of houses which are not being occupied. Sadly, that
means that some areas are going downhill because we have a lot of empty
houses. That is a great pity because there is a shortage of certain types
of housing. Perhaps that matter, too, can be examined. I remind the
Minister of a problem from the past which, unfortunately, is still ongoing.
I understand that the case of the Orlit houses has not been settled. A
certain type of Orlit house is still causing problems. I understand that
the tenants of Orlit houses which were sold by an unregistered housing
association are not being treated in the same way as tenants in registered
housing association houses.

Mr. Molyneaux : I know that my hon. Friend shares my concern for a
fairly large group of Orlit home owners in Lisburn in my constituency who
have through no fault of their own have fallen foul of what appears to be a
defect in the law because their houses were built by an unregistered
housing association. There seems to be some slippage in

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the drafting of the legislation between what
I call the Ian Gow Bill and the Order in Council. We had to wait three
years for the Order in Council. When it emerged, it seemed to be defective.
I wonder whether my hon. Friends the Members for Antrim, South (Mr.
Forsythe) and for Belfast, North (Mr. Walker) would accompany me to see the
appropriate Minister, because it is a grave injustice.

Mr. Forsythe : I would certainly be willing to meet the Minister
about such an important matter, and I would be pleased if my colleagues
were in a position to go together.

The hon. Member for North Down referred to vandalism on housing estates.
There is a case to be made for joint action to be instituted between the
police, the Housing Executive and the social services. We have great
problems in certain housing estates, and that is a great pity.
Unfortunately, we find that when one bad tenant is put into a housing
estate, within a short time 70 per cent. of the people on the housing
estate want to be transferred.

Sadly, I have to point out that in some areas the drug problem is also
serious. It is difficult for public representatives to explain to
constituents who are worried about vandalism and drug problems that it
would appear that certain things cannot be done. I ask the Minister to
examine the situation carefully. Perhaps a task force involving local
councils and so on could be set up to examine the situation and try to
resolve some of the problems in this respect as they are serious for those
who live in certain areas. It is sad that there are such problems.

Vote 4 of the Department of the Environment vote is for planning. I agree
with all that has been said about tied dwellings. I am also concerned about
the situation in which farmers, their families and others cannot seem to be
able to build on their own ground. I shall digress slightly from what my
hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry, East (Mr. Ross) said. My sympathy
is with my constituents, not with the planners trying to keep people from
building.

If we are to keep people on the land, and to keep the farming community as
a family or a group, we should make allowances for that. Certainly, if we
are to have empty cottages or bungalows throughout the whole of Northern
Ireland simply because there is a planning rule which says that they cannot
be sold or let to people who are not in the farming community, the purpose
of spending millions of pounds on building Housing Executive houses escapes
me if we cannot use them. I agree that that matter should be examined
again.

One gets annoyed when one phones the planning service and the planning
service says that these are the new guidelines. The guidelines have not
been through the House ; they are decided by the planning service. We are
not told about them. There is no local council input. The decision is taken
and the guidelines are then presented to us as being set in stone and we
cannot change them. We greatly object to that.

We naturally object when enforcement is requested but is not carried out.
Yet when we do not want enforcement, the planning service does it.
Sometimes I think--and I say this to my friends in the planning service in
my area--that they are perverse in that if we want something done, they do
the opposite, but perhaps I am being unfair.

I wish to refer to vote 5 on the Department of Health and Social Services,
and I want to put on record that we in Northern Ireland also have problems
with the Child Support Agency. I know that the subject gets a lot of
mileage in the Select Committee on Social Security--of

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which I am a member--and I know that we have
debates in the House about it, but the same applies in Northern Ireland as
applies in the rest of the United Kingdom.

There are complaints about the CSA and hold-ups in assessments. We know
that letters are not being answered and phone calls are not being returned-
-at least we are told that. That seems to be the same in Northern Ireland
as in other parts of the United Kingdom. The same points are made on the
subject. Why should clean breaks not be accepted ? The debt switch arising
from divorces and the travel-to-work expenses of the absent parent are not
allowed for. Fifty per cent. of the pension contribution is allowed, not
100 per cent.

If a lady marries a man who is an absent parent, her income is immediately
taken into account to keep the children of the absent parent. Some people
would say that those things are not supposed to happen, but we know that
they are happening. Sadly, that is the case, although even natural justice
should demand that those things should not happen. It is rather
unfortunate.

It is accepted that, when the subject of the CSA went through the House,
everyone agreed that it was a good idea that parents should look after
their children. Everyone would have applauded that, but there is a way of
doing it and we should look at the subject again seriously. I must
emphasise to the House that I and my colleagues are well aware that the
staff of the CSA are doing precisely what the House requested them to do,
and it is most unfair to hear about the aggravation which CSA staff are
receiving. We must try to change the system to help those who are
disadvantaged by it, but people should not take it out on the workers. We
in the House gave them a task which they are now doing.

I would like to mention also "The Future of Pensions" recommendations which
will be debated by the House and which will also apply to Northern Ireland.
I know that the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) will
understand when I say that improvements and changes in pensions law should
be brought in as soon as possible.

One thinks of evidence given by the Harland and Wollf management regarding
the pension fund. They seemed to treat the members, former members and
workers with great disdain and did not pay any particular attention to
their views. I understand that the management saw the report and thought
that it supported what they had done. In fact, the position was the
absolute opposite. The pension fund trustees have not yet appointed a
representative from the pensioners--unless one counts the chairman, who has
now retired but remains as chairman of the trustees ; one wonders whether
he perhaps regards himself as a representative of the pensioners.

I hope that when the privatisation processes for the airport and the port
of Belfast are taking place the Government will take into account the ideas
and the new proposals in "The Future of Pensions" and build those into the
pensions provisions in the privatisation of those companies.

I would like to ask the Minister briefly about the social fund. The social
fund report from the Auditor General in the Northern Ireland Audit Office
says that there were 1,901 cases of recoverable loans abandoned or
impracticable to pursue. Why was that the case ? The figure in the accounts
states that the amount was £153,000. I would be the last to say that
we should pursue people if they are

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desperately in need of money and are
deserving of it, but we should have an explanation as to why it was not
possible to recover that money.

I agree with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry,
East (Mr. Ross) about the disability living allowance. Nowadays, people
suffer from new ailments and medical conditions which are not recognised by
the medical practitioners who examine the applicants for the living
allowance. That lack of flexibility should be considered.

The introduction of an identity card is an excellent idea. That little
plastic card could carry a photograph and all the relevant details about an
individual. Those in receipt of benefit could then take it to the post
office for the purposes of identification. That would provide an excellent
job for sub-post offices, which we are keeping. There is talk about the
privatisation of the Post Office, but I know that we are keeping our sub-
post offices. The card could also identify those who go along to vote, as
that procedure is still subject to problems.

Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) : The hon. Gentleman should
consider going a bit further and having an identity card in Northern
Ireland for all purposes, including voter identification. In the past there
was a difficulty about the introduction of such cards, but now that we have
all-party agreement on it and the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Dr.
Hendron), the Social Democrat and Labour party representative, is now in
favour, surely its introduction would be a non-contentious issue on which
the Government should move ahead.

Mr. Forsythe : I agree. It is an excellent idea. It is not a
particularly difficult job to produce the identification details required ;
they could all fit on the back of the card, just like our Access cards. Now
that there is agreement across the House on its introduction, the Minister
should consider it. My colleagues and I would support its extended use.

Vote 2 for the Department of Economic Development covers tourism. The
Minister had a little debate with my hon. Friend the Member for
Londonderry, East about the membership of the tourist board. He said that
certain people were best suited to serve on the board and I would not
disagree with that. I am not quite sure, however, whether there is an
hotelier on the board. If there is no such member, perhaps that is why
local business people who apply to the Industrial Development Board for
help to build a hotel or complex are told that they cannot have one because
the board will only give such grants to large hotel chains which come to
Northern Ireland or to hotels associated with such chains. I am reliably
informed that that is the practice, so perhaps the Minister will confirm or
deny that when he replies. If it is true, it is disgraceful. We are talking
about helping to attract people to Northern Ireland, and who better to do
that than local people ?

In connection with vote 1 for the DED, I congratulate the Minister, as I
have done in the past, on the new investment and new firms that have come
to Northern Ireland. I have seen the benefits of that in my own
constituency and I welcome them. I know that the IDB has done a lot of hard
work to attract such investment. As I have said on previous occasions, it
is most unfortunate when the media choose to play down and, on occasion,

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attack certain investments which people have
worked hard to get. I give a black mark to the media for talking down or
criticising certain matters. My second criticism of the media is that when
the IDB is holding confidential discussions the media tend to leak the fact
that those discussions are taking place, with the result that others get to
know about the matters in hand. That is unfortunate. I disagree with the
Minister's high praise for the Local Enterprise Development Unit. My praise
for the IDB does not carry over to LEDU, because it is supposed to help and
encourage local people by putting them in a position in which they can
create more employment but, sadly, that is not happening. I am sorry to end
my speech on that note, but it must be said.