So what about honey?

Forgive me if this has been asked somewhere here already, but what role does honey and hive products (bee pollen, royal jelly and propolis) play in the paleo diet?
I have a few questions to ask about this elusive nectar. It is called the perfect food; lab tests have shown that animals can survive indefinitely on a diet of bee pollen and water alone, but how much of it did paleolithic man consume?

Would hives have been raided seasonally in paleolithic times, would every part of the hive have been consumed and how much honey would Grok have consumed on average, if at all? I assume honey bees are found pretty much all over the world, and in classical times honey was certainly viewed as food from the gods, (and a food which aids longevity) but is honey, just like sugar; sucrose and fructose, something to be avoided?

I would understand if honey was used for medicinal purposes only, I would imagine hives were few and far between and were highly prized, so does that mean we should be taking honey in order not to get sick or only when we are sick?

while we're on the subject, yes whole foods market does promote veganism. i worked there 2 years ago, and there was a job there for a health consultant of sorts. i forget what they called it exactly. i wanted the job, so i looked at the info about it online and talked to the guy who had it at the time. the info online had a list of books that the health person should read, including the china study and other anti animal product foods. i actually got into a debate with the guy who had the job at my store. he promotes animal product free diet and that is what he is supposed to do.

I still say anyone who claims that fructose has no metabolic function and is, in fact, a toxin needs to explain why we evolved the ability to digest it. If it were a toxin it would be more logical to not deliberately absorb it and allow it to flush out our rear. Instead we have the ability to digest it and our body even up-regulates it the more fructose we eat. I've yet to see a single study that shows fruit or honey are at all equivalent to HFCS.

They have a thriving meat section because they're capitalists. For them $$$ is always >
They do however promote a vegetarian diet, there was a controversy a while back about their 'healthy choice' signs (or something like that?). They were stuck all over the tofu, whole grains, veggies (including legummes) but nothing in the meat dept was tagged.
Check this out:
http://www.carbwire.com/2010/09/24/whole-foods-creates-new-healthy-eating-specialist-position-to-promote-the-vegetarian-agenda
or this
http://www.westonaprice.org/press/1829-whole-foods-promotes-militant-vegetarian-agenda.html

I've been having a flare-up of 'silent' GERD all week (with non-burning reflux but itchy throat, sneezing and congestion) and so I was reading up on possible remedies. I came across a recommendation to take black strap molasses or raw honey, and I had access to the latter (honey that came from a bee farmer but drinkable, not thick like I expected so not sure if he strained it or processed it in any way). It eased the symptoms but I've had to take it a few times since because it hasn't knocked it out completely. Also added crushed red pepper and fermented meat to my diet, which may have helped.

i concur with both of you. Ill just add that i love how Harris phrases the whole discussion as we are mimicking or searching out "paleolithic metabolism," which is not necessarily "paleolithic food only" or anti-neolithic food.
That guy is spot on across the board granted, but when i read that specific thing it kind of shined the light for me. I know its a dead horse already, but our community would benefit so much if he were to bust back on the scene.

@jm054 --- modern hunter-gatherers have an interesting, symbiotic relationship with an animal called a honey-bird. To wit, seeks them out and it leads to a hive, where the bees are then smoked out of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeyguide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t_vXWgoWdc

Michael Pollan has said something similar re: high-fructose corn syrup and sugar. Yes, HCFS is bad for you and it's heavily processed. News flash: organic evaporated cane juice isn't much better.
I don't agree with everything Pollan says, but he was right on about this one.
I have yet to see Harris post something that is wrong or not useful. We need to consider the metabolic effect of X food, not whether X food "is Paleo" or not.

So honey was just too much of a risk to seek out or were the bee stings utilized too? Apparently bee-venom therapy is a respected treatment even today, wacky yes, but it seems to have its merits - http://www.beevenom.com/beevenomtherapy.htm

15
Answers

Whether honey was consumed in Paleolithic times is immaterial. Even it was, it wasn't a core staple, and it wasn't widely enough available to have had a substantial effect on the evolution of human metabolism.

What we know today is that it contains large amounts of fructose, and should therefore be consumed in moderation, if at all, due to the negative effects of fructose on the liver.

Personally, I do eat honey, but I treat it like fruit: very small amounts (organic only), and very infrequently.

Michael Pollan has said something similar re: high-fructose corn syrup and sugar. Yes, HCFS is bad for you and it's heavily processed. News flash: organic evaporated cane juice isn't much better.
I don't agree with everything Pollan says, but he was right on about this one.
I have yet to see Harris post something that is wrong or not useful. We need to consider the metabolic effect of X food, not whether X food "is Paleo" or not.

i concur with both of you. Ill just add that i love how Harris phrases the whole discussion as we are mimicking or searching out "paleolithic metabolism," which is not necessarily "paleolithic food only" or anti-neolithic food.
That guy is spot on across the board granted, but when i read that specific thing it kind of shined the light for me. I know its a dead horse already, but our community would benefit so much if he were to bust back on the scene.

There's no doubt that hunter-gatherers ate honey, and probably have done so for a good part of our evolutionary history. So I think that quality honey is fine, when eaten in the frequencies and quantities that our ancestors ate it in.

They couldn't toddle down to the local Wal-Mart and buy a five-pound bucket of industrial honey produced by bees fed on HFCS. They had to locate a wild hive, smoke it out, risk getting stung repeatedly, and quickly gather small quantities of it while the bees were still stunned before fleeing enraged swarms of angry stinging insects.

So a small bit of organic free-range [insert usual Paleo buzzwords here] honey from time to time? Perfectly Paleo. Regular everyday use of quantities of typical storebought stuff, not so much.

The usual caveats about my falling solidly into the re-enactment camp apply.

This one showed that honey providing the same amount of glucose and fructose as a purified diet using glucose and fructose purchased from Sigma had effects mostly similar to the starch control, whereas the refined glucose/fructose diet increased oxidative stress and caused increases in triglycerides, characteristic of "fructose":

This suggests that honey does not have the harmful effects of refined fructose. The first study indicates there might be something specifically harmful about HFCS, but sucrose itself is harmful. Thus, the goodness of honey is probably largely due to its minor protective constitutents and in small part due to the possibly harmful nature of chemically isolated fructose (usually produced by isomerization from glucose).

I would not go consuming most of my calories as honey without further research, but I would consider this grounds for using honey as a sweetener in place of refined sweeteners.

[...]

Soon, probably tomorrow, I will be posting about how HFCS is worse than sugar and how honey is just fine."

I've been having a flare-up of 'silent' GERD all week (with non-burning reflux but itchy throat, sneezing and congestion) and so I was reading up on possible remedies. I came across a recommendation to take black strap molasses or raw honey, and I had access to the latter (honey that came from a bee farmer but drinkable, not thick like I expected so not sure if he strained it or processed it in any way). It eased the symptoms but I've had to take it a few times since because it hasn't knocked it out completely. Also added crushed red pepper and fermented meat to my diet, which may have helped.

From what I've read on the internet, honey has been around for 40 million years--long before homo sapiens sapiens. There are cave paintings of man cultivating honey dating back 8,000 years, so I don't agree with the comment that it was never a staple of man's diet. Just look at nature. Bears LOVE honey (not just the bees and bee larvae). Although they have thick coats, they are vulnerable to getting stung on their lips, near their eyes, and on the tips of the ears; nevertheless, they keep at it because it's worth their while.

Bees have been around for millions of years before man demolished their habitat, so from what I can see, HONEY HAS VERY LIKELY BEEN A STAPLE OF MAN'S DIET FROM THE BEGINNING. That said, old bears with access to lots of honey have been known to develop tooth decay, but I don't know too many diabetic bears or bears that develop obesity and/or premature heart disease.

I'd say the rest of the crap we're doing to ourselves and our environment is what's killing us. Remove the toxins and other anti-nutrients, restore the proper ones, and honey shouldn't be a problem as a staple in our diet as long as it's consumed in moderation. In fact, I believe it is an underrated/valued food source for many of us. I won't sweeten anything with table sugar, organic or otherwise. I only use honey and occasionally maple syrup; just like a caveman should!

Ps...no, I do not sell honey in any way, shape or form, but I do think it should be a part of the paleo diet!!!

Honey is marvelously healthy with loads of nutrients, minerals, and vitamins. But... in the end, it consists primarily of sugar (a bunch of different sugars), so you have to eat it in moderation.

So, eat it in moderation. It is also great for wound dressing (toss out that neosporin), lingering coughs (toss out that DM), etc. Effects your liver? Nope. Maybe if you consumed many many many many gallons of it.

The sugars in honey are different. For example, High Fructose Corn Syrup on the surface may have a similar fructose:glucose profile as honey, but... HFCS is toxic to honey bees if heated. Not so with honey. It's different.

Bee pollen: It is the perfect food -- for honey bees. It's probably a decent additive for humans, but... there is no real science supporting anything beyond that.

From the beginning of time, honey, brood, and pollen were prized and eaten in great quantities, but sporadically. Not "paleo" if you are being pedantic, but... it was eaten way back when, and by some populations, fairly regularly.

They have a thriving meat section because they're capitalists. For them $$$ is always >
They do however promote a vegetarian diet, there was a controversy a while back about their 'healthy choice' signs (or something like that?). They were stuck all over the tofu, whole grains, veggies (including legummes) but nothing in the meat dept was tagged.
Check this out:
http://www.carbwire.com/2010/09/24/whole-foods-creates-new-healthy-eating-specialist-position-to-promote-the-vegetarian-agenda
or this
http://www.westonaprice.org/press/1829-whole-foods-promotes-militant-vegetarian-agenda.html

I still say anyone who claims that fructose has no metabolic function and is, in fact, a toxin needs to explain why we evolved the ability to digest it. If it were a toxin it would be more logical to not deliberately absorb it and allow it to flush out our rear. Instead we have the ability to digest it and our body even up-regulates it the more fructose we eat. I've yet to see a single study that shows fruit or honey are at all equivalent to HFCS.

while we're on the subject, yes whole foods market does promote veganism. i worked there 2 years ago, and there was a job there for a health consultant of sorts. i forget what they called it exactly. i wanted the job, so i looked at the info about it online and talked to the guy who had it at the time. the info online had a list of books that the health person should read, including the china study and other anti animal product foods. i actually got into a debate with the guy who had the job at my store. he promotes animal product free diet and that is what he is supposed to do.

Honey is a no go for me and I won't expand on everyone's explination of why to avoid it however honey does have one redeeming factor ... small daily doeses (1tsp) of raw, unfiltered, organic, locally grown honey can really help with allergies. I can vouch for both myself and my wife on this. It's not an overnight thing but it will help build up the immune system by introducing small amounts of the local irritants that the body can handle.

That being said do I take it? No. I did for a while but my allergies have never been that bad and when I changed my diet they got even better.

This is another honey related question, not an answer. Does anyone know about 'Manuka' honey? Apparently manuka honey with a high UMF is very good for when you are sick. It originates in New Zealand. Any thoughts?

I imagine Grok probably didn't eat all that much honey. It was like a paleolithic Cinnabon. I have no idea of knowing, but maybe a 3-4 times a year tops. Although honey is accepted as paleo, only use the highest quality honey you can find (raw local wild honey is widely accepted as best), only now and then. As for taking it medicinally, a teaspoon-tablespoon should be enough (depending on what you're treating. For cuts and burns and beauty treatments applied topically, there's no worries, but if you're trying to treat your allergies, a teaspoon of raw local wild honey (which helps expose you and immunize you to local pollens) shouldn't be bad as long as you're exercising and avoiding other carbohydrates, and if you're treating cold symptoms with honey, don't sweat it, since hopefully you shouldn't be getting sick too much on paleo ;) but for cooking and baked goods, probably best as an occasional treat.

"During the wet season when animals are not always available, the diet is composed mostly of honey, available fruit and tubers, and occasionally meat. Availability of meat increases in the dry season, when game is concentrated around water sources..."

I am sure it was a risk vs reward
proposition. Is it worth the stings
to get the honey? The advantage of man
is that he could have worked in a team
to devise a clever way to get the honey vs.
a bear that would just absorb all the stings
to get to the sweet treat.

@jm054 --- modern hunter-gatherers have an interesting, symbiotic relationship with an animal called a honey-bird. To wit, seeks them out and it leads to a hive, where the bees are then smoked out of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeyguide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t_vXWgoWdc

So honey was just too much of a risk to seek out or were the bee stings utilized too? Apparently bee-venom therapy is a respected treatment even today, wacky yes, but it seems to have its merits - http://www.beevenom.com/beevenomtherapy.htm