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Yup, but after refusals I would be moving up and lining. I'd be casting from that closer position too before I started moving back to the original line. I want to get the dog moving and retrieving. and the easiest way to do that is simplify IMO.

Sounds like you are still confusing it. The OP is not that far along yet.

There is no lining in this. It's all front finish dog 2 feet away and with piles 5-10 steps away no original lines its just simple 3 handed casting.

Yup, but after refusals I would be moving up and lining. I'd be casting from that closer position too before I started moving back to the original line. I want to get the dog moving and retrieving. and the easiest way to do that is simplify IMO.

I agree she is clamming, got to get the dog moving/ retrieving everything else is on hold until that happens. Thedog has to be conditioned to pressure, run under pressure and learn to get out of pressure.

Sounds like you are still confusing it. The OP is not that far along yet.

There is no lining in this. It's all front finish dog 2 feet away and with piles 5-10 steps away no original lines its just simple 3 handed casting.

You are saying it's easier to cast a pup through a burn from 10 yards than to move up and line the pup from 5 yards? I think you've got the dog's momentum from moving up in your favor and you are away from the burn, plus you are facing the pile. Send her for the bird without facing her away from the pile and stepping away from the dog. Use the momentum you've built up by moving towards the pile. If she gets it without much baggage then you can toss the bumper back to the pile and remote cast him from there. Work your way back to the original line. Don't make a big production out of it trying to force a barely trained dog through a burn, help her along and show her what you want.

Howard NiemiYou really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

Give it a day or two without any pressure (collar pressure).... you will still have to pinch if you get a refusal. It'll give you a chance to review 3 handed casting and give a the dog a bit of a mental break at the end of conditioning. Don't be afraid to help with body english and IDing etc. CC is obviously a stressful time and sometimes I think it helps to let them have a day or two to digest before you start the Ind. press. intro. Don't skip the step and move on, but at the same time, don't rush it and dig a hole. I can't stress enough how important it is to make sure the dog is getting plenty of marks in the field. (Birds if at all possible)

You are saying it's easier to cast a pup through a burn from 10 yards than to move up and line the pup from 5 yards? I think you've got the dog's momentum from moving up in your favor and you are away from the burn, plus you are facing the pile. Send her for the bird without facing her away from the pile and stepping away from the dog. Use the momentum you've built up by moving towards the pile. If she gets it without much baggage then you can toss the bumper back to the pile and remote cast him from there. Work your way back to the original line. Don't make a big production out of it trying to force a barely trained dog through a burn, help her along and show her what you want.

Its not a burn it a nick to remind them calm down pay attention.

I did it where I was literally on top of the dog. The farthes away my body was before a cast was 2 feet. There is no separation between handler and dog

the only problem I think this step is meant to correct is to get the dog to slow down and focus on the handler. 99% of the very few nicks I had to give were him anticipating my cast. Simple "no, here pulling rope back to you, sit nick" to reinforce the sit if he repeated the offense back to back. Shopping the pile wasn't ever a big deal for us, nor refusals as the bumpers were in plain sight and we had just finished walking collar fetch and I used the command fetch while moving towards a pile

My take on this: Something tells me that there is more confusion than anything else. I personally have resorted to "simplify", maybe even "oversimplify". I would simplify,change location, reteach, and make sure the dog understands the behavior that is wanted before I would add the pressure. I have Lardy's material and when I read it I just get the feeling that he makes sure the teaching end is understood but I must admit I haven't looked at his stuff for a while.

"I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

"Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

i'm not lardy afficianado as the previous two are but i believe he went back to the basics in that you had to toss a bumper behind/side of the dog and use a lot of body english. sure its already been taught in simple casting but it wasnt used for awhile so she is probably forgot some of it. in a front finish position i threw the bumper behind him to the pile (15 feet or so) and then used his name to release him then brought back to front finish and cast to the identified pile. i ID'd all the piles this way each day of indiriect pressure/simple 3 handed casting drills.

pay real attention if you have the manuals to the little paragraph about when to nick for indirect pressure. if the dogs giving effort then its not a nick. if its a lack of effort (not paying attention to you while in front finish, taking off before cast is given, etc) then its a nick.

i too had a little trouble moving from CC to indirect pressure. i thought he would remember it all as it was only 1.5 weeks before but sometimes they just need a refresher and thats where ID'ing the piles with tosses came into play. also went back and used the word fetch instead of back/over for a day or so till he got the hang of the body movements. also add lots of body english to the point your almost moving 2-3 steps toward the pile

which is why i said this first. i agree teach and re teach if you have to before pressure is applied

I have been progressing through Lardy's program with my 11 month BLF. After completing CC in about 7 sessions I moved yesterday into the indirect portion on simple casting. Here is where the problem starts. When I went back to the 3 handed casting drill it seems that the pup has done a complete mind dump. Initially I started with a few freebies that were not quite up to par but acceptable then continued until I was presented the opportunity for a correction and gave a "No, here (nick), sit". Now she acts like she has no idea whats going on, wont take casts, on overs she tries to come at me, wont go to a pile even after I ear pinch her to the correct one. I collar conditioned her at a 3 and used a high 2 for the correction (TT Pro 500). Simple casting in the yard prior to CC was completed to about 90% proficiency per the video and I have tried to regress and make more of a game out of it again but I'm not sure its helping. Not sure exactly what to do whether to skip to collar fetch then return or go completely back to a couple days of simple casting with no collar.

I had a similiar question not long ago regarding indirect pressure. Attached is the thread, its a bit lengthy but has some good info on this subject, if you can read past some of the sniping that went on in the thread.