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What's to say that the Prince is worthy of their title? As stated it's unlikely, but it's not impossible that a person or group is using the Prince as a figurehead for whatever reason, or that a weak Prince is temporarily allowed to sit on their throne while all the powerful elders are striking bargains and consolidating their own power before they attempt a coup. It might be that the two largest Covenants in a domain has fought a brutal war and as part of the truce both sides chose to step aside and let a weaker third party claim the throne until they've regained their strength and are able to fight for it again.

There can be plenty of reasons why the Prince isn't the strongest or even one of the strongest Kindred in a domain. They're probably not going to hold that title for long though, or they might find that the title holds very little influence in that particular domain.

Could work as a plot. I would argue that a weak Prince wouldnt be able to take control by themselves because they wouldnt have the ability to seize control. So a weak or ineffective Prince would need to either running a ruse or be placed into power. However, the chaos that could be caused by a vampire with that role due to their possible lack of knowledge of how the politics of the city works, would probably make their rule very short - especially if the Masquerade is threatened.

For me, the crux of a setting like this would be an inversion of the traditional concept of a Prince. We all know how tyrannical-but-competent they can be, what happens when you have an idiot on the throne?

Mods/Op - if this discussion is derailing the thread, please let me know and I will look at creating a new thread for this topic.

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so i got to ask, are these bad character concepts? are they to complicated or hard to follow? do you think that the events that happened to them had no meaning? dose these story lack to much focus?

There's a fine line between having an interesting backstory and front-loading a character with too many plots and dramatic points in their history. A good idea is to make sure that your character's background is less 'movie-worthy' than what they can be expected to face at the table. If you are already a world-class whatever, it raises the bar on what needs to happen to make the character's arc continue in a cohesive way.

I think a lot of those flashpoints could be resolved by strategic use of Aspirations.

Aspiration: Join a mystery cult.

Aspiration: Become the most renowned plastic surgeon in the city.

Aspiration: Delve into my parents past to assuage my guilt.

If you leave them as hooks, it lets the ST weave them into the setting and plotlines they have going instead of having to create something whole cloth that already happened and might disrupt or not fit into things. Besides, it can be much more interesting to play through these flashpoints at the table than in the background, giving you deeper insight to the character you are bringing to the game. You want them to face tough choices in the moment so you really test who they are.

Personally, I wouldn't require you to justify Resources or Fame all that much. I will say Mystery Cults are a flag for me - not an auto-reject, but a flag - as Cults are one of the more obvious XP discounts out there. (Spend 5 XP on Merit Dots to get 10 XP on Merit Dots) so I prefer my players to tackle them in game, or give me the story of the cult, then I design the mechanical advantages. If you are just talking about the Occult skill, not a problem.

Of your proposed ideas, I would encourage the second one were it in my campaign. There's a Doctor Strange analogy there, sure, but the doctor with hubris is a classic archetype and has a place as long as you make it interesting. The malpractice bit is a little hamfisted - maybe ditch the gloves story and find another reason he was forced out. Jealous partners? Always willing to take risks with cutting edge procedures until too many go wrong? I think you can come up with something better there. But I really like the Nosferatu sire idea - I'd play up that relationship. I'd go antagonistic with it, though you have to be careful as not all tables can handle that type of sire-childe relationship, and it doesn't seem like you and your ST are quite on the same page. Still, my head went to the idea of this plastic surgeon who sees the concept of ugliness itself as an enemy to be conquered, only to be embraced by a Nosferatu as punishment or torture for that philosophy. I think there's something there, and I'd probably point you toward the Galloi if you were interested in a bloodline.

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My only issue with the first one is that there is a lot going on there. How much of the gametime do you expect to dedicate to your character versus the other players. Otherwise as a Storyteller, I would love to have all those background elements to play with.

The other two concepts seem fine to me, maybe needs some polish, but are workable.

Maybe you could share some more specifics about what your ST had problems with? It could just come down to the tone of the game they want. As Lex said, sometimes people just want to play a few normal people dealing with their new undeath.

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A Ventrue within the Lancea Sanctum who maintains a catholic school in order to satisfy his thirst for young, virgin blood. He also dispenses harsh punishments upon any students he finds breaking their vows of celibacy.

A Daeva within the Ordo Dracul who uses their growing knowledge of kindred anatomy in order to create new ways in which to slake their hedonistic desires.

A Mekhet within the Circle of the Crone who boldly claims to have been a mage when they were mortal. Now, they try to find a sympathetic connection between Cruac and the supernal realms.

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2. Must not be too aware of the occult before Embrace (Anything they might have known before being Kindred should be unfactual and mostly useless)

Not sure if I agree on this one. The Ordo Dracul, along with the Sanctum and the Circle, could probably embrace occultists. The three are the more mystically-minded covenants, so I think it could be possible. On the other hand, I've dealt with players who thought that with their one dot of occult they got to say that they totally knew their sire was a vampire before they were embraced. So, I know where you're coming from.

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If they totally knew their sire was a vampire before the embrace, is that not just a background jot? I mean, figuring out that something is amiss with someone is more a matter of contact and context. A little occult skill means you've got either a bigger pot of pop-culture to draw on, or your pot is boiled down toward things that are true-ish. Toward. As in you get a roll and not a chance die.

1. Must not be too famous (Embracing celebrities shake the edges of the Masquerade)

2. Must not be too aware of the occult before Embrace (Anything they might have known before being Kindred should be unfactual and mostly useless)

3. Must stay grounded to reality (Keep it simple. Make sure the character could actually exist)

Amendments:

#1. Must not be too famous in modern times. (If you're Belisarius no one except a historian will recognize your name, let alone care.)
#2. Must not be too aware of the occult before Embrace, unless your service to the supernatural is a key character point (i.e. extensive ghoul-dom). (Many characters are groomed extensively before Embrace in order to improve their value and/or make the transition easier. They're also normally Bound during said process. Or, they were Hunters--that happens too.)
#3. Must stay grounded in reality to the same extent as other characters at the table. (If the ST is cool with the guys next to you playing Blade and Alucard, your version of Jay becomes the outlier.)

--Khanwulf

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If they totally knew their sire was a vampire before the embrace, is that not just a background jot? I mean, figuring out that something is amiss with someone is more a matter of contact and context. A little occult skill means you've got either a bigger pot of pop-culture to draw on, or your pot is boiled down toward things that are true-ish. Toward. As in you get a roll and not a chance die.
--Khanwulf

I would've been fine if he made a roll, or focused more on the context of the situation. The player just happens to be very arrogant at times. The fact his character had one intelligence and automatically knew that his sire was a vampire didn't particularly endear me, admittedly.

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I would've been fine if he made a roll, or focused more on the context of the situation. The player just happens to be very arrogant at times. The fact his character had one intelligence and automatically knew that his sire was a vampire didn't particularly endear me, admittedly.

Yep. And I suspected you were dealing with a special case. The point being that for concepts it really is/should be a ST call for what will work best.

Intelligence dump-stat not being role-played is another type of problem, and you're within rights to insist that the player assign an attribute that reflects the way he intends to play and is comfortable with.

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Yep. And I suspected you were dealing with a special case. The point being that for concepts it really is/should be a ST call for what will work best.

Intelligence dump-stat not being role-played is another type of problem, and you're within rights to insist that the player assign an attribute that reflects the way he intends to play and is comfortable with.

--Khanwulf

But honestly, I follow those guidelines (and enforce them, if I'm the ST) to get the best out of this game. There's dramatic potential in having a character dragged straight from mortal life into the Requiem, with no prior knowledge of the occult or the supernatural world. I also prefer mundane concepts because there can be no horror when you are playing a John Wick or a Jason Bourne.

And to be fair, the Ordo tend to embrace people from academic or scientific backgrounds, doctors, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, or simply people with odd life experiences, a multi-suicide survivor or a schizophrenic. The Occult knowledge comes later. Same thing with the Circle, but they are less picky about the "academic" part.

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A Nosferatu dwelling among the homeless, defending them against troublemakers like punks, killers and gangsters, as wrll as other things that go bump in the night, and providing cheap ecstasy in the Form of the Kiss. They have formed a Herd in the Form of a cult that worships their dark savior as a sort of vengeful deity.
Took some Inspiration from the early issues of Spawn here.

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But honestly, I follow those guidelines (and enforce them, if I'm the ST) to get the best out of this game. There's dramatic potential in having a character dragged straight from mortal life into the Requiem, with no prior knowledge of the occult or the supernatural world. I also prefer mundane concepts because there can be no horror when you are playing a John Wick or a Jason Bourne.

And to be fair, the Ordo tend to embrace people from academic or scientific backgrounds, doctors, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, or simply people with odd life experiences, a multi-suicide survivor or a schizophrenic. The Occult knowledge comes later. Same thing with the Circle, but they are less picky about the "academic" part.

Oh I quite agree! My strong preference is to play characters of entirely mundane backgrounds thrust unwelcomely into the Long Night. There's just more story there, IMO, digging into the horror.

My responses here are a bit of a devil's advocate however, because it's easy to veer in discussing concepts toward the "right" way to play the game. That's dangerous, and if some gentle reader has a table more comfortable playing night-terror with katanas, more power to them. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to the distinction because for a long time the group I had around was firmly in the trenchcoat camp; they never got why I kept rolling up mortals.

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Oh I quite agree! My strong preference is to play characters of entirely mundane backgrounds thrust unwelcomely into the Long Night. There's just more story there, IMO, digging into the horror.

My responses here are a bit of a devil's advocate however, because it's easy to veer in discussing concepts toward the "right" way to play the game. That's dangerous, and if some gentle reader has a table more comfortable playing night-terror with katanas, more power to them. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to the distinction because for a long time the group I had around was firmly in the trenchcoat camp; they never got why I kept rolling up mortals.

--Khanwulf

People can play whatever they want, but the system is built on personal horror (I mean c'mon, it's on the cover) this is why I'm generally opposed to the action-packed approach (games like Scion are much more suitable for that imo)

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The horror part comes in when the character with a 3 in Occult learns the hard way that vampires don't crumple to dust when they put a stake in the heart of their first vampire rival like they do on Buffy. Or that werewolves don't require a full moon to transform into a giant wolf or wolfman.