Posted - 2009.10.27 11:46:00 -
[1]
The jump range need some love. With jdc 5 u can jump 4.5 ly max. I think covert cyno's will be more populair if the max range get a boost. Im thinking of max jumprange of 12 - 20 ly's. Maybe adding a special Black Op jump range skill to make this happen. Another level 14 skill that takes ages too learn to L5. Or just increasing base jumprange of 2 ly.

Posted - 2009.11.08 23:25:00 -
[3]
12-20 light years?!?! No way! That is way over powered. Now I would be more for a 25% boost in range max. It is a battleship, not a capital ship. Change your proposal to something more reasonable and I will give it a thumbs up.

Originally by:Marlona Sky12-20 light years?!?! No way! That is way over powered. Now I would be more for a 25% boost in range max. It is a battleship, not a capital ship. Change your proposal to something more reasonable and I will give it a thumbs up.

Yes u might be right, but they certainly need a boost according to the Qen Q3

"The least popular ship group that we can reporton was the Black Ops battleship, with only 225characters piloting them at the time of thesnapshot."

Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.

Widow is the only ship that has functional t2 bonuses, agility bonuses? speed bonuses? wtf? The redeemer's bonus is at least not completely useless, but the rest.... ugh.

I'd propose something like:

Redeemer:

7.5% to large energy tracking, 10% to large energy optimal per level

Sin

7.5% to drone mwd speed per level, +10km drone control range per level

Panther

7.5% to large projectile tracking, 10% to large projectile falloff per level

The sin will always be sub-par as a black ops due to using drones: impossible to stay aloof because you can't align with sentries and/or have to wait for heavies to return. Panther could use another turret and/or being changed to be a shield tank ship. Thankfully, the AC fix panthers wont be too badly off

Quote:Maybe they need a new role in general (like the stealth bombers) or just some more tweaking, examle, the jump range need some love. With jdc 5 u can jump 4.5 ly max. I think covert cyno's will be more populair if the max range get a boost.

No they simply need to get unnerfed. They originally nerfed the stats because they thought they'd become the OMGSOLOPWNMOBILE.

That's for the sin moreso. Which is what I fly. Just for comparison. I happen to be in my oneiros atm as logistics 5 is almost done and i'm changing my fitting slightly. Anyway. Oneiros has...

1. 33% more maximum targeting range over t12. Oneiros is slightly less agile. but fairly acceptable. Plus oneiros generally matched up with command ships and battleships. So not an issue.3. 48.75% more kin res vs 10% more for sin AND 32.5% more thermal res vs NO CHANGE for thermal on sin4. 33% more armor/shields/structure then t15. has fitting bonus over t16. well gets 4 large rr vs 1 large rr or 4 large rr to 4 medium rr.

So how about we unnerf these? We dont need to talk about making them jump further or such.

Quote:Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base)

That really only may lead to other issues i wont mention.

Quote:Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod)

Black ops and titans can lock onto any sort of cyno. including beacons.

My suggestion would be the allowance for black ops to lock onto ANY alliance beacon. Regardless of alliance association. Which isnt that overpowered as you cant exactly move much to that enemy pos; that the pos cant alpha.

Quote: Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.

This isnt that bad. Then again. I really like the agility. Cloaked velocity is fairly useless. On a ship so fat Anyway. Presumably. You jump into a camp. You ab/mwd-cloak and even with all that. You really arent going to get away from inties who run at you. The cloaked velocity would only work if it was like 1,000% per level. Then you're practically nano while cloaked. Which would be very fun but I cant see that happen.

THERE ARE MORE TITANS THEN BLACK OPS!

------------------------To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.------------------------Life sucks and then you get podded.

They can't bridge to cyno gens (ccp did a dirty hack and made the bridge a passive mod so you can't).

The agility is nice, but really useless frankly. (this coming from someone with a sin) Only thing i've used it lately is a glorified loot transport: warps faster than a cs with a built in cloak-warp trick and more ehp. lol.

Being able to jump farther is critical for them to be of any use. If they can't jump/portal (portal range tied to jump range) a decent distance, un-nerfed or not they would still be more or less useless in the role ccp would like to see.

Oh, as far as the covops cloak stuff goes: Meh. It would be nice, but balancing it would be somewhat hard. I'd rather see jumping and ship stats addressed first.

Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.

Widow is the only ship that has functional t2 bonuses, agility bonuses? speed bonuses? wtf? The redeemer's bonus is at least not completely useless, but the rest.... ugh.

I'd propose something like:

Redeemer:

7.5% to large energy tracking, 10% to large energy optimal per level

Sin

7.5% to drone mwd speed per level, +10km drone control range per level

Panther

7.5% to large projectile tracking, 10% to large projectile falloff per level

The sin will always be sub-par as a black ops due to using drones: impossible to stay aloof because you can't align with sentries and/or have to wait for heavies to return. Panther could use another turret and/or being changed to be a shield tank ship. Thankfully, the AC fix panthers wont be too badly off

I agree with this. I think they need real bonuses. I would like to see combat recons be allowed to use the bridge also. That would mix the clandestine fleet up a bit."By way of deception, thou shalt do war"

Posted - 2009.11.11 04:52:00 -
[10]
I would agree to boosting the black ops only if there were concurrent defenses implemented to provide both:

a) On-grid cloaking detection/aoe decloaking possibilities.

b) Sovereignty holder anti-afk cloaker possibilities.

Currently the black-ops is primarily a logistical tool for SB/recon gangs, and for that they are very effective. If there were tools to counter cloakers, offensively, not just using bait and hoping they make a mistake, then I'd be all-for increasing their jump/portal range far enough to make some of the very long inter-region leaps such as to the drone region from the north.

Posted - 2009.11.14 11:45:00 -
[11]Edited by: Dave Meltdown on 14/11/2009 11:45:25yes they need some more love. Black Ops have great abiblities that comes with alot of skills that u need to train. The currenty form of black ops just dont make it worth training, buying them for 800m and use them.

Posted - 2009.11.14 13:39:00 -
[13]
Black ops do need alot of love before they will be used in any great numbers. I personaly think they should be based on more DPS as they are more like hit and run ships, sneaking up on someone then hitting them round the back of the head with a hammer comes to mind. But but at the moment they cant do hit and run because they can only fit a normal cloak instead of a covert ops,they are stuck waiting at gates instead. Also i wouldnt mind them being given a role bonus od 99% reduction in fitting needs of warfare links for a second role of FC ship for a covert fleet.

Posted - 2009.11.14 21:30:00 -
[16]
i was honestly shocked when i looked at there combat capabilities... I do not fly one, but the fact that they have ess powergrid for fitting, less Hp, makes them made of paper, and less guns, means they cannot even stand up to regular dirt cheap Battleship in combat, and they cost about a bill. Give em proper stats please!!Fix Destroyers

Posted - 2009.11.16 22:44:00 -
[18]
i want blackops boost...immideately!!!! i want it...and you ccp should do it...because(see what i want)...so..do that dodododo!!!!! you have a lot reasons to do that...and main one - is my wish!

Posted - 2009.11.21 12:17:00 -
[20]
I support giving blackops a little love. They could handle a bit more jump range, a bit more EHP, a bit more DPS without becoming overpowered.

I don't think many people will frontline them (preferring to bridge a fleet into battle and remain safe in another system) but if they are a little bit better than their T1 hulls that might happen more often.

Posted - 2009.11.21 15:20:00 -
[21]
I think ccp summed it up best and drew the wrong conclusion.

If there are so few Black Ops ships in the game, less than even the Titans then that is NOT the reason to let is sit in the corner alone like some ugly stepchild . . . that is the reason to go back and give it some loving to bring it back into the fold.

If they are so committed to making ships begin to have specialized roles then ask what role the BO's should have and address the question of whether the current design does make someone look to this ship for that role or not.

Posted - 2009.11.21 21:36:00 -
[22]
Supported, up the jump range so that it can fill its intended role. cov ops cloak would be nice, and for god's sake please bump their base stats up so that they can be a match for their t1 counterparts. either that or mke a drastic reduction in the overall price of the ship, I think the main thing that is killing black ops is the billion isk price tag for a ship that has a nifty trick for its size. compaired to what else I can get my hands on for that amount of isk (carrier, marauder, some of the cheaper dreads,) and the capabilitys that these ships offer compaired to their simarly priced counterpart its just not worth the investment.

Originally by:Yon KrumI would agree to boosting the black ops only if there were concurrent defenses implemented to provide both:

a) On-grid cloaking detection/aoe decloaking possibilities.

b) Sovereignty holder anti-afk cloaker possibilities.

Currently the black-ops is primarily a logistical tool for SB/recon gangs, and for that they are very effective. If there were tools to counter cloakers, offensively, not just using bait and hoping they make a mistake, then I'd be all-for increasing their jump/portal range far enough to make some of the very long inter-region leaps such as to the drone region from the north.

--Krum

They are not more popular than Titans, so no BO defenses are even needed yet, you have to worry about the Titans first...priorities.

Anti-cloaking abilities need to go to those nimble[useless] dessies.

Seriously, having a jump portal ship that can't jump to NEXT DOOR is hilariously fail.

And the fuel consumption, Jesus, we are green tech in the future. High mileage, weak dps/ decent tank(to call in help and bait even). The first iteration was low mileage/weak dps/weak tank. HIGH price, so that you can stare at people?

Increase Fuel bay to 4km3 - What is the point of being able to fit a jump portal mod if your gang exhausts the fuel the first time you jump. These ships should be able to work in 0.0 without having to be refueled every time the gang needs to move somewhere. As-is, you either need a gang member to bring along a transport ship or you fit cargo expanders, either is a poor choice.

Tanking - None of them can do this effectively unless it is all they do, and even then it is sub-par compared to their T1 or even faction equivalents. Tanking a Redeemer is an effort in futility. Tanking Sin & Panther require the use of Crystal implants and deadspace modules to get anywhere near being effective. The Widow, while able to tank, sacrifices all of its EW role in doing so.

Fitting - This is another barrier to those who might have been wanting to fly a black ops. Using the Redeemer as an example, you need to waste your rig slots on reducing the CPU usage of your guns if you wish to fit T2 weapons and anything resembling a tank at the same time. Even then you must use faction mods if you want to have any form of tackle.

Covert Cynosural Field Generation - DO NOT reduce the skill requirements for using these mods. Not everything in this game should be available to the random pubbie at a weeks notice. What does need to be changed though is the inability of transport ships and strategic cruisers with the covert subsystem to fit them. If a ship can go through the portal, it should be able to light a cyno for it as well. Should this be changed, some of the transport ships would need to be given an additional high slot so they can still fit their cloaks while filling this role.

They jump in, blow something up, jump out. Hit and run. I don't see where the tank is actually needed.DPS wise all of them can get 700-800.

So let's say a black ops fleet of 5 jumps in to gank a Rorqual or a ratting BS from a constellation that's near another and has blocked, defended gates in between... Do you need a tank to kill a rorq or any t1/t2 bs with 5 x 700 DPS black ops ships? Most will go down even with just 2 Black Ops BS shooting them very quickly.

For any operations where resistance is expected you will simply have to be more tactical about it. The more numbers game doesn't work with B-Ops. Is that bad or good? I think it's great.

The jump range could be 2.5 or 3 light years - but that's just a maybe.

The only real change I'd suggest is remove the Sin's drone damage bonus and it's drone bay. Just because Dominix was drone dependent doesn't mean that Sin has to be.

They jump in, blow something up, jump out. Hit and run. I don't see where the tank is actually needed.DPS wise all of them can get 700-800.

So let's say a black ops fleet of 5 jumps in to gank a Rorqual or a ratting BS from a constellation that's near another and has blocked, defended gates in between... Do you need a tank to kill a rorq or any t1/t2 bs with 5 x 700 DPS black ops ships? Most will go down even with just 2 Black Ops BS shooting them very quickly.

For any operations where resistance is expected you will simply have to be more tactical about it. The more numbers game doesn't work with B-Ops. Is that bad or good? I think it's great.

The jump range could be 2.5 or 3 light years - but that's just a maybe.

The only real change I'd suggest is remove the Sin's drone damage bonus and it's drone bay. Just because Dominix was drone dependent doesn't mean that Sin has to be.

All in all if Sin would receive such a change it would be without the drone damage disability that slows donw hit and run operations and be like the other B-Ops ships.

Yes, black ops don't really need to tank but they should atleast have some t2 resists + the same hp as their t1 counterparts.

The main thing that kills them is ****ty bonuses, and horrible jump range. Sin is additionally disadvantaged due to drones and even as a gunship it would be rather subpar with rails being rather low dps but blasters can't reach 20km either. Rest of them can easily get about 25km range with their short range weapons.

Also, panther needs another turret and being changed to a shield tank (lows -> mids)

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