House blocks EPA from banning lead in ammunition

The House on Tuesday passed legislation giving hunters and fishing enthusiasts access to certain public lands to pursue their sport and also blocked the Environmental Protection Agency from banning lead for use in ammunition and fishing tackle.

The Sportsmen’s Heritage Act passed on a mostly party line vote of 274 yeas and 146 nays.

Republicans argued that the ability of sportsmen and women to fish and shoot on public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and Forest Service is being threatened by the Obama administration and environmentalists through bureaucratic regulations.

Republicans also said that banning lead bullets and tackle would cause economic harm to the recreation industry and kill jobs.

“It would be a massive power grab by the EPA without a clear lack of legal authority, but has that ever stopped the EPA under this administration? Sadly, it hasn’t,” said Rep. Doc Hastings (R–Wash.) chairman of the House Resources Committee.

The bill recognizes hunting and fishing as historic and traditional recreational activities on public land and requires the federal bureaucracy to support those rights, said Rep. Rob Bishop (R–Utah), chairman of the Resources subcommittee on national parks, forests and public lands.

“It’s simple language: if agencies in the bureaucracy of Washington want some areas of land closed to the public for recreation, they have to have a darned good reason to do it,” Bishop said.

Hastings and Bishop cited an article in U.S. News and World Report stating the proposal to ban hunting on BLM land was in response to urbanites that “freak out” when they hear gunfire, and that the decision was an effort to reduce “social conflict.”

“I suggest that is not a logical reason why these rights should be prohibited,” Bishop said.

Federal managers are treating the public lands as their “personal fiefdoms” rather than managing the vast properties for public use, Hastings said.

Rep. Raul Grijalva (D–Ariz.) argued that the greatest threats to hunting and fishing do not come from federal land managers, but from development, pollution and destruction of wildlife habitat.

“The problem this bill claims to solve actually does not exist,” Grijalva said. “This bill is intended to wrap (land managers) in red tape and intimidate them… and to score political points with outside groups.”

Federal law already bans the EPA from regulating lead ammunition, however, more than 100 environmental groups petitioned the agency last month to ban it claiming the lead can poison those who eat wild game shot with the ammunition, or other animals that accidentally ingest the metal in dead carcasses.

“There is no scientific evidence for their position,” Hastings said. “So this (bill) makes it crystal clear Congress has primacy on this issue and it should be respected.”

Grijalva should know all about pollution and habitat destruction by just touring his states southern boarder. What has been done along those routes into Arizona by illegals is criminal.

jimlay

The BLM has become a useful tool in the hands of the Socialist Oppressor. And, yes, by that, I mean the Obongo administration.

bub23

It’s all part of a larger plan to squeeze us into the cities where we can be controlled. (See Agenda 21) Over 50% of the land out west is “owned” by the Federal Gov., denying states’ access to valuable resources, denying citizens’ access for recreation and sustenance. The EPA has illegally extended their power to micromanage our lives and until we object to every little “rule” that they try to impose on us, we are headed toward a future Hunger Games, all in the name of “patriotism and saving the environment”.

1tomritter1

If the GOP were truly concerned, they would immediately introduce legislation to abolish the EPA.

vigilannie2

Vote Ron Paul 2012 – and, indeed the EPA WILL BE ABOLISHED!

13862520

When are we going to put a stop to the EPA and the radical, leftist, nut-jobs that run it? I would have hoped that the House would at least initiate some action to call attention to the problem, but it looks like most of the so called “conservative Republicans” we thought we had there, have sold out. We need to identify who they are so that we can get rid of them in the next election, along with the chief nut-job.

Left to their own devices, most libturds will remove themselves from the gene pool through their own stupidity. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch.

crakpot

One reason we won the Revolutionary War was our previous freedom to hunt on the King’s land. That wasn’t allowed in England – all the game was property of the King. The Colonists got to do it as a matter of survival, but in allowing it, the King let the Colonists get good at shooting while camouflaged. The Second Amendment is an instrument of peace – a deterrent.

When we expanded west, however, the government took a lot of land for itself. The Feds now ‘own’ (EPA activists control) over half the land in the western states.

I say remove this temptation to power. Sell Federal lands to pay the debt. (First prevent them from running up debt again.)

Liberal Soup N Crackers

When will we have an open season on EPA administrators?

dhenery

The EPA, DEP, BLM etc. are nothing more than Domestic Terrorists along the lines of the ELF…and should be treated as such…

Joseph English

And I say the federal govt. has NO constitutional right to “own or manage” ANY land in those western states. This is becoming a growing cause for the rights of states.

wildbill555

It looks like you missed the opportunity to bag one of the most dangerous animals on earth,the dreaded California progressive.Their normal range is Starbucks coffee shops and liberal college campuses as either students or professors.When found in the wild they should be treated with extreme caution as the overwhelming odor of marijuana that seems to follow them around can disorient the traditional outdoors-man.They can be differentiated from normal woodlands inhabitants by their orange,purple and occasionally multi-colored hair and LL Bean body coverings.Since they are an inedible species and as how their vocalizations of ” it is all Bush’s fault,etc. ” can cause extreme headaches when they are within earshot,they should be treated like their closest relatives,the skunks and avoided at all costs.

Wild Bill
Alaska

pappap42

All of this could be solved if they just get rid of all these agencys and do the job their self and quit hiding from accountably. COWARDS!

kiddoc99

Lead at any level in the environment is highly toxic to birds, fish, and humans, most importantly our children. Why would any self-respecting patriot gripe about eliminating proven toxins from the environment even if it cost more. This isn’t global warming. This isn’t drilling for oil. There is NO controversy to the toxicity of lead. Once introduced it never leaves the environment. It doesn’t degrade. It doesn’t dissolve. It just sits there and at in any level it is a poison. I would think that if you were an avid hunter or fisherman you would want to enjoy your activities and score your catches from the most pristine environment you could have. Why do you (rightfully) jump up and down about the rights of the unborn and then have no qualms about poisoning your own born children. It is pure folly to be so opposed to saving the environment that you choose to fight against saving the land you live on. It’s too expensive? So how many brain damaged kids are acceptable in the name of cost savings???

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_REFOGE4Q2OLNXCSQA3KT6623FE Joe in CT

We need to take control of both the Senate and the POTUS before we can send the EPA to the junk yard after draining its Frankenstein batteries before we have a chance to do that. We don’t have 60 solid votes in the Senate, so BHO would merely veto a 51 vote victory in the Senate. That said, my sentiments are exactly as yours.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_REFOGE4Q2OLNXCSQA3KT6623FE Joe in CT

bub, see my post above on the EPA. IMHO, they are out of control, fully steered by our Communist POTUS, and both he and them must go next November election.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_REFOGE4Q2OLNXCSQA3KT6623FE Joe in CT

I understand your angst, but I think the Repubs have tried to pick their battles since the Senate is not under Repub control. the next election is key — we need to win it big and cut all the communists/progressives out of the executive branch.

kiddoc99

The fact opposition to sane regulation like removing lead from buck shot is even up for discussion proves that states don’t have the brains nor the right to self-manage.

settrigger

The fact that you think buckshot laying around in the woods is causing problems means you don’t have the brains to manage your own life let alone someone elses

endpork

Will you fight actively to push the RINO party to ouster McConnell from the Senate Majority Leader and Beohner from the Speaker of the House.??

If not… it matters not what the #’s are. The republican party looks out for… the republican party. NOT THE VOTER

Unless it is an election year statement.

TERM LIMITS by us or NO CHANGE WILL BE MADE. Google federal term limits, and join in your state.

Even re-register as an independent and send in a copy of the registration to your states republican chair with a letter on your anger towards their stupidity and inactions….
That is what I did… think about how the repub party will react if millions did it.

And McCain helping Lugar in Indiana???? What is that?

gkttxag

Kiddoc99Your comment starts out with an ad hominem attack – namely the premise that
those who oppose your position ” don’t have the brains or right ” to
self-manage.

Ad Hominem “snark” is usually the last refuge of the ignorant, but I will
give you a brief benefit of the doubt.

I am curious- are you a hunter or shooter? Do you harvest or consume game
meat? Do you live in a community where hunting, fishing and shooting are part of
the culture or lifestyle? Or are you merely pontificating from a pedestal?

Are you one of those folks who conflate the very real danger of lead
poisoning from environmental sources such as lead paint, lead oxide pottery
glazes, lead-smelting and tetra-ethyl lead fuels with the absolute non-issue of
spent projectile lead?

1) Do you have any data to support your (apparent ) position that “buckshot ”
ingestion causes lead poisoning? I would be fascinated to see your data, as
numerous studies by various institutions both public, private and academic have
failed to provide significant support for the premise that spent projectile lead
in the environment leads to lead poisoning in local fauna. Even the oft cited ”
California condor” study is statistically very weak-it is used more as a
political tool than a scientific guide.
As I said, please provide peer-reviewed cites, then we can discuss
methodology and significance on an equal footing basis.

2) Did you mean “birdshot” when you said “buckshot”?
Apparently you are unaware of the difference. Buckshot is composed of really
big pellets, usually 9-12 to a cartridge, used to hunt deer . Total projectile
weight will be typically around 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 oz, with each pellet massing
around 3.5-3.9 grams. Spent buckshot is very high mass and quickly buries itself
below the soil surface after a few rains; it is extremely unlikely to be
ingested by anything .

Birdshot is significantly smaller than buckshot, with anywhere from 80 to 320
pellets per cartridge, depending on pellet size. There is some data that suggest
that bird shot fired over marshy areas comes to rest in mud, where it can be
ingested by bottom feeding diving ducks such as scaup , shovellers and
ringnecks. This is the stated reason lead shot has been banned for duck hunting
- in the early to mid 1970′s , it was demonstrated that many ducks in the
Chesapeake Bay area had high Pb (lead) concentrations in their blood.

Of course, the counter argument that was ignored was that the upper
Chesapeake watershed contained 5 million cars burning leaded gas, and the lead
in duck blood was potentially a result of those ducks swimming and drinking
surface water runoff from DC and Baltimore, etc, that was contaminated with lead
from auto exhaust. This counter argument was ignored in the rush to ” do
something”; lead shot was banned for waterfowl hunting, and “non-toxic” iron
shot ( generally called ‘ steel’ shot ) was adopted by most waterfowl
hunters.

Sadly, iron shot is not nearly as good a projectile as lead. It has been
suggested by some pretty good data, that the number of ducks wounded but not
brought to bag , caused by the enforced use of iron shot, is significantly
higher than any duck morbidity/mortality resulting from ingestion of lead
shot.

Again, this question has been basically ignored, because this issue is
primarily a political one, not scientific.

3) As for rifle and pistol bullets – fired lead is essentially inert. It lies
there on the ground, doing absolutely nothing. Rather quickly it develops an
oxide coating, and then, after a few rains, sinks below the surface of the soil.
It does not get ingested, nor does lead oxide readily go into solution at any
naturally occurring rainwater pH. If you are someplace where rainwater has a low
enough pH to dissolve lead, you have enormously bigger problems than lead
contamination.

As for the risk to scavengers or carnivores eating carcasses that have been
contaminated by projectile lead – upon careful examination the proposition is
obviously profoundly silly. It suggests that there are an enormous number of
bullet-riddled ( and therefore projectile lead contaminated) carcasses out there
that were not recovered by a hunter, and thus available for scavenging. It also
suggests that rather than a ” once in a lifetime” occurrence for a particular
individual scavenger, such an event happens on a regular recurrent basis.
Such a premise is absurdly unlikely.
4) As for the concern about people consuming particulate lead while dining on
game meat or waterfowl. This is also not a problem. A recent study of North
Dakota consumers of game meat found they have blood Pb levels statistically no
different from non-game meat consumers. I suspect this is not a real issue for
you, however.
The bottom line is the fact that those of us who are hunters and shooters see
the long war against projectile lead as having nothing to do with protecting the
environment and everything to do with making ammunition scarce and expensive.
Scare and expensive ammunition will reduce hunting participation, culturally
marginalize the shooting sports, and overall reduce shooting opportunities. A
real leftist anti-gun trifecta.
In the future, before you make a comment calling other folks backward or
ignorant, you might do a little research so you don’t display your own abject
ignorance on the subject. You might start with the difference between buckshot
and bird shot.
Sincerely GKT

Guest

Bub– the Agenda 21 edicts are being sown like grass, from one end to the other in this shaking republic– you know that, I know that, but how very few of rank and file Americans have even heard the name– to say nothing of knowing what it is and its tyrannical objectives. Bet your very last buck:– Barack Obama knows all there is to know about it, and gives daily thought to its gradual but certain implementation.

A defeat for our president would be, at least, for a time, the defeat of Agenda 21.

Guest

I have an excellent idea for you and your close friends: Leave this land of the the rankly unlettered and go to Communist China. The government there totally agrees with your ideas of bowing before your superiors– and taking advantage of a state that will see to every single part of your life being predetermined by them, **or they will kill you trying.**

Vladimir Lenin is credited with the observation: “Communism cannot survive in just one country. Why??? Every intelligent citizen will LEAVE.

You appear to be that exception who would happily stay.

apache6

That’s why I call “THEY”,the “DEMONIC-RATS”,and “REPUBLI-CANT’S” because “THEY” are all in on it together !!

gkttxag

Kiddoc99

I hope you will reply to my response to your first post.

Lead is indeed toxic. If you recall your tenth-grade chemistry you will remember that so is copper, zinc, iron, aluminum, cadmium, chromium, almost every metal can be toxic – all they have to be is in the right chemical form and in appropriate concentrations.

If you have a penny in your pocket, you have a potentially toxic item on your person – is that scary?

Lead paint chips present a toxicity problem if you eat them. Lead-glaze pottery is a hazard. The fine lead crystal your Grandma got as a wedding gift shouldnt be used for food. Avoid living near a lead smelter. Dont eat vegetables grown on soil fortified with reclaimed municipal sewage. Dont roll in dirt from a 1960′s era petroleum refinery. Dont eat while working on an engine from a 1970′s era muscle car. These things wll help you avoid unsafe blood levels of lead.

Projectile lead, on the other hand, is simply NOT a concern; unless you are ignorant or have a political agenda.

Which is it?

tionico

kiddoc said: Once introduced it
never leaves the environment. It doesn’t degrade. It doesn’t dissolve.”

OK, back to your eighth grade chemistry class… if an element does not degrade or dissolve, HOW can it go into the meat, water, feed of other animals? If it doesn’t dissolve or degrade, it just sits there. The animal will pass it on through, just like a rock. You ended your own shrill whinge by your own words. take your tripe elsewhere. There are accounts of war veterans with lead bullets stuck inside their bodies for decades WITH NO ILL EFFECTS.

1tomritter1

My point exactly.

1tomritter1

Yes the Senate would not take it up and Obama would veto it if it ever got to his desk.

But the GOP could still introduce it if they cared.

kiddoc99

Since I am a pediatrician and I treat have treated several children with lead toxicity over the years including one whose source of lead was from his family’s water supply that came from a waterway that laden with lead from years of buckshot, I think, just a little, that I do know what I am talking about. There is a difference between potentially toxic and universally toxic. You actually can carry minute levels of several of the metals you mentioned in your body with no recognizable toxicity. Lead in even the tiniest concentrations have been shown to have an negative impact on a child’s development. There is an easy fix here. It’s just a case of people who know what the right thing to do is, but they just don’t want to do it.

settrigger

Bull! ” a waterway ladened with lead from years of buckshot”They were drinking water from an open waterway? What was the way constructed of dirt, metal? Where was the source of water from? The other kids you supposedly treated, they were eating paint chips, what? You had the shot sizes explained to you above. Yet you’re still sticking with buckshot. I don’t believe for a second, that much of any size shot got built up in one particular spot. What were people doing, just going along and shooting down into this waterway? You sir or maam, are full of crap up to your ears.

You claim to be a physician, yet you seem to have little grasp of the
scientific method. Did you pass an epidemiology, statistics or public health
course?

You answer several very calm, and simple questions requesting data with ad
hominem attacks. You suggest that anyone who disagees with you about projectile
lead being the source for lead poisoning is scientifically ignorant – placing
such folks on the same level as anthropomoprphic global warming (AGW) skeptics,
who you seem to believe are ignorant rubes. Your choice of example in the case
of AGW is poorly selected – Although this is off topic, I refer you to the
recent open letter signed by more than 150 NASA scientists, engineers and
astronauts who flatly reject NASA’s position in support of AGW as
“non-scientific” and contrary to the available evidence at this time. Are they
stupid rubes?

Let us return to the issue at hand,

Lets examine the anecdote. as Setrigger has commenced above.

Do these people draw drinking water from an open canal? This is pretty much
unheard of in developed areas in modern times, unless this is a border area
colonia. If it is, the likelihood of “buckshot” even being in the area is
remote. Buckshot is used for extremely close range woods hunting, and colonias
occur in dry, flat, tree-less prairie and desert areas of the southwest, namely
Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. No buckshot likely there.

If your canal is in Mississippi or Lousiana, it is near a cotton field,
perhaps? Cotton was, in many places for years treated with lead and lead
arsenate compounds to retard weeds and kill insects. If your folks are drinking
from that canal, I suspect the any lead toxicity problem is caused by lead
cotton poison residue.

If you read and absorbed any of the info I provided above ,you would have
seen that there is no link ever demonstrated between lead or lead salts
dissolved in surface waters and projectile lead.

I wont waste more time on this, but regarding your anecdote, again I ask you
for a cite to the relevant report by the US Public Health Service, the Indian
Health Service, private contractor , the EPA, or your state or county. These
should all be public documents and I would certainly find them of interest ,
particularly if the reports cite projectile lead as the source of the lead
contamination.

GKT

kiddoc99

It’s not emotion. It is science. Since you know zero about lead and I treat children with lead toxicity,. kindly shut up. “Where do you think the lead in the bullets comes from?”?? That’s what you got? What are you, five? Of course there are small amounts that do occur naturally, but the majority of environmental lead has come from humans, from many sources. I apparently have to explain how pulling lead out of the ground from deposits and incorporating it into various products is different quantitatively than what occurs naturally? Virtually all lead toxicity in humans is from human activity, the overwhelming majority of it currently from paint; we don’t see lead toxicity from “natural sources” because it just is not that prevalent naturally. Uranium occurs naturally but some how I don’t think you want that put into your back yard on purpose.

kiddoc99

Maybe you already do. MUHAHAHAHAHAHA

kiddoc99

Unless you have more than anecdotal stories about soldiers, you really have nothing to say. Children are not adults. You do get that right? Because their nervous system is still growing, lead’s neurotoxic effect occurs disproportionately in children. Even minute amounts that would no effect on you have a known and profound effect on fetuses and children. Many plumbers have worked for years with lead and have had no ill-effects, but some have had their children severely injured. You people really don’t understand how toxic lead is for kids even at relatively small amounts.

kiddoc99

Many people in rural my state have “surface” wells that are ultimately fed by by local waterways, and the majority of them are safe. They are prone, however, to contamination from both farm runoff and waterway toxins especially after especially wet weather.
The overwhelming number of patients I have treated indeed have been poisoned by ingesting paint chips or residue. The concern is that at virtually any level of exposure children are harmed by lead, not to mention it is known to be toxic to birds and animals. If there is an alternative that is better for the environment and reduces the risk to kids what is the problem?

kiddoc99

I don’t think peer review anything would help you. I love how conservatives flock to AGW skeptics even though they form such a tiny majority. If you you really believed in statistics then you would be skeptical but at least acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of scientific data supports AGW. The AGW position is not based on science, it’s based on a conservative world outlook. Intelligent skeptics weigh options and understand there are too many as yet unanswered questions to prove AGW categorically, but they don’t just flat out deny data because it is inconvenient.
There are libraries of data on the effects of lead. I never said “projectile
lead being the source for lead poisoning” as though shot is the main source for lead toxicity. Indeed it isn’t. What I did say is that lead in any amounts is toxic to children. It is known to be toxic to wildlife. Why keep adding it to the environment? It is not benign!

The EPA could be another one of those government funded offices that could be close down and save more $$ .Seems that they have gotten to big an worthless .

MyronJPoltroonian

Wait just a minute! You don’t trust local municipalities, county seats or private business’, yet you invest all your faith in “Big Brother”? Oh brother.

justinwachin

I’m not a hunter, but worrying about lead is ridiculous. Litter, including shot gun shells, is more prevalent in nature than lead buckshot and weights.

If the government wants to worry about something they can focus on the crushing debt that the government is running up. Future generations will be affected more by today’s out-of-control government spending than the waste of a few sportsmen.

gkttxag

kiddoc99

I guess I am a bit perplexed. Your first comment said something along the lnes of “ban buckshot because it contributes to lead poisoning”. I have illustrated why “buckshot” ,ie, projectile lead, does NOT contribute to lead poisoning, all the while acknowledging the known toxic effects of lead compounds derived from other sources.

Lead projectiles do not cause people or animals to get sick. Why then should they be banned?

You have offered no cogent reason for your ( implied ) position that that lead projectiles should be banned.
As a further source of confusion, in your most recent post you say that you did not claim that projectile lead caused lead toxicity in children - but it appeared that that was the entire point of your anecdote about people being lead-poisoned by drinking water from a canal contaminated with ” buck shot”.

Several items of note:

1) I ask for peer-reviewed cites to support your ” anti-lead projectile” position. Your response is merely to suggest that I havent the mental capability to understand such.

2) You spend a fair amount of time on the AGW rabbit-trail, suggesting that those who are skeptical are merely so because of a ” conservative ” world view. That is a silly comment – science is science. Data is either parsable and conclusive, or it is not. A regression analysis either lends a trend line, or it does not. ( I make a bold and possibly erroneous assumption that you DO know what a regression analysis is). Skeptics have merely noted a substantial amount of fraud practiced by the AGW crowd- I direct you to the leaked ” Climate-gate” emails and self-confessed manipulation of data to make the Medieval Warm Period disappear in order to make the ” hockey-stick” graph look good. This is stuff readily available nline and paper-published in the UK Daily Mail, Die Welt, the Wall Street Journal and other leading newpapers, and has led to the firing and demotion of several of the researchers at East Anglia University as well as elsewhere. It has also spurred a revision of terminology, the phrase crrently in favor by the AGW crowd is ” Climate Change”, since the un-manipulated numbers just dont seem to support man-made global warming ( a problem discussed in numerous e mails by researchers at the University of East Anglia climate rearch group and inconveniently leaked to the public)

I would suggest that if something is” settled science” , then it does not require data manipulation or outright fraud for the theory to be supported.

If you cannot read Die Welt in the original German, I will be pleased to provide a translation.

I note that you never did respond to my question about whether or not the NASA scientists, engineers and astronauts who questioned AGW were ” ignorant rubes” or do not understand science.

None the less AGW is absolutely irrelevant here- a rabbit trail. You brought it up to insult folks with whom you disagree.

3) I have asked for citation to the report , which you claim to have, generated by your anecdote. This is the report which shows buckshot caused lead contamination of the drinking water resulting in lead toxicity for one or more of your patients.

You offer no citation to a public document which you claim to have in your possession or readily available. Why is that?

I have tried to carry on a civil discourse of mutual exploration with you, but your rhetorical method leaves me stymied – you provide no actual specific case information, you ignore but do not refute counter arguments which effectively undermine your contentions, you introduce straw man arguments that do not support your original position ( ie -lead buck shot should be banned because it causes poisoning of drinking water morphs into a claim that you never suggested projectile lead was a problem) , and you resort to ad hominem arguments . ( In case your Latin is as weak as your science understanding, the term “ad hominem” means ” against the man”, ie. “name calling”)

Again, I ask in a polite and civil manner that you provide citations to actual scientific peer reviewed articles that tie spent projectile lead ( ie. what you erroneously call “buckshot” ) to lead poisoning; I ask that you provide a cite to the specific report generated by your anecdote which ties projectile lead to lead toxicity.

Lastly, I would like you to answer the questions I originally posed for you- do you hunt, fish or shoot? Do you consume game meat? Why are you so anti-lead projectile when you yourself have admitted that you are not saying that lead projectiles cause lead poisoning?

Are you simply a moderately creative troll?

Al Eng

Well said but I feel it’s a contagious Zombie like illness that has spread from coast to coast .There is no know cure and none so far have seemed to come back from the infection. But others like myself must have genes that naturally have an immunity to the infection. Although we are far and few between there are studies to see if our immunity can help the infected. So far it’s spreading.