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I don't like ratings.... does anyone?

This isn’t really a feature request, so much as an “unrequest.” I have to say, I’m not fond of the 1-5 ratings. I think it makes sense in certain contexts, like if you’re rating a pattern. In that case, people who are considering making the pattern might want to know if people are satisfied with it before investing time, money, and effort into it. Sites like Ravelry make good use of ratings for that purpose for patterns, and for people’s personal projects only offer the ability to say that you “heart” something, not that you think it’s bad.

I don’t have any gripes about the way my projects have been rated, so this isn’t sour grapes. But I just feel like in a community in which so much is about sharing what you’ve created for others to see and getting feedback so you can improve and learn, a 1-5 scale doesn’t add much. Plus I feel like it gives people an opportunity to be anonymously negative or mean. Back when it used to just be comments, I rarely saw comments that weren’t encouraging or helpful. This is still the case— people are positive, or at least constructive. Why add the opportunity to cut someone else’s work down? And now, sometimes I see something which is perfectly nice (or maybe not that nice, but what does it matter?) that’s got a 1 rating. What is that good of that? (And sometimes I see things that I personally don’t like with a low rating, and still, I don’t see the point. If someone really feels that strongly that they want to give something a low rating, why not instead just put a comment that says, “You might want to try ironing the seam allowances open as you sew- you’ll find this makes for a much more professional finish”?)

The fact that people are using their skills, exercising their creativity, and just flat out MAKING things deserves praise, even if the outcome isn’t to everyone’s taste. The fact that the creator bothered to post it at all means that they take at least a tiny bit of pride in it. If someone doesn’t like something, and wouldn’t be willing to post a comment to that extent, why should they be allowed to indicate that they hate it anonymously? Voting “1” isn’t that different from just posting a comment that says “THISSUCKS” and we all know that people wouldn’t do that! Rating doesn’t benefit the person who made it because it doesn’t suggest any way that they could improve their work, and it doesn’t benefit the casual viewer to see that a project has an average of 2 stars from 7 people. The ratings don’t even add that much if something is rated highly. I’m guessing that people click on things because of the picture, not the rating, and my guess is that most of the people who post creations would rather get a nice comment than a high rating from someone who looks at their stuff.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant. It’s not meant to be a criticism of BurdaStyle in any way. Obviously, I love the site and the community. I do think, however, that project ratings don’t add anything to the community, and getting rid of them might actually foster a more creative and nurturing community.

Hey Elaine,
First off we really want to thank you for this post, it really explained where you are coming from and helped us understand your position. The whole team talked about this and agreed that we should move it to something along the lines of facebook with “liking.” We agree that this site is so great because of the positivity and encouragement and we don’t want that to change. As of now, we are busy fixing many bugs and as soon but as soon as we can we will revisit this issue. Thank you again!

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Hi, I was just wondering why nothing happened after 2 years of this discussion. I’d really prefer to see “like” buttons instead of the ratings on projects and it seems as though others still would too. Thanks!

Agree with Jenss (here we are 2012!), I actually contributed feedback to some Burda web survey with a specific critique of the whole ratings system. Folk are incredibly supportive and constructive. So Burda team/Burda.de corporate when will you take a strong web and make it better! Please could you maybe take some lessons from team Mozilla (of Firefox fame) and figure out how to get working group (open source/free) etc… Use us to help you!

I totally agree, glad to hear that the team does too :-)!
And oh, by the way, when I looked at other craft/sewing-websites the other day I realised just how user-friendly (easily navigated) and good-looking (graphics/layout) the Burdastyle site is now so: well done BS-team, with the bugs fixed it’ll be great! Especially since you take your time to listen to us users, thank you!

I do agree with everything Elaine has said. Thank you for putting it so nicely, too. :)

As a teacher, I know the value of encouragement and positive reinforcement. I also know the value of constructive criticism and clear instructions that can be followed easily.

On that note, I find that there are some superb patterns and designs on the site that are spoiled by inadequate or confusing instructions. I know from designing stuff for kids and beginner to use that step-by-step clear instructions with good illustrations are essential and make the whole process go quicker, with better results. One example that comes to mind is the Alison swimsuit… Mine isn’t quite complete yet, but I have been writing it up as I go, so some more detailed instructions can be made available soon.

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I would like to add something to the topic of pattern instructions. I have posted several patterns to the site. I tried to make instructions for all of them, but I guess some of the instructions aren’t as descriptive as they could be.

The problem is that sometimes I don’t have enough time to take photos of the process as I sew, and the photos would clearly illustrate the construction. The other problem is that I am not a native English speaker and I find it difficult to explain in English some sewing specific terms and details.

I think it would be nice to have a constructive feedback from other members who have used my patterns with more detailed information about garment construction.

Since the site’s idea is an open sourcing, I think everybody would benefit from this kind of help.
On the old site there was a space for comments on the pattern page. It was removed from the new site, which I believe was a wrong decision. That feature was a source of additional information about the pattern to all members. Instead of comments, there is a rating feature, which is good (when it comes to patterns and techniques), but not informative enough.

I agree good instructions are essential, we have been going back and fixing our early BurdaStyle hand drawn patterns into a cleaner computerized version. We are always looking to give you the best quality, and we do that with your help! Katexxxxxxx I can’t wait to see your instructions!

Di you guys know you can comment on each individual step of the instructions? If you add additional information in there, people will see how it relates to the step. If something is confusing and you can explain it better, please do :) I knwo as a novice i sometimes need things explained to me a couple different ways before I understand what to do

I agree with everything Elaine said, and I’m glad to hear that our feelings are being taken into account.
Further to what Katiexxxxxx said…. I agree that some of the pattern instructions aren’t always clear. Sometimes I think it’s a wording issue, and sometimes I think a picture is really all that’s needed to make sense of the written word. Because of this sort of confusion I made a how-to for the Jennifer neckline. It got 1 comment and 2 votes, but 17 people have added it as a favorite. Since favorited items are bookmarked on our personal pages, this statistic is truly flattering because it means that my how-to is useful to other people in the community. As mentioned, “votes” adds nothing but the potential for passive negativity. I feel that the “favorite” and “comments” options are all that is really needed.

I’m gad someone bought this up, I’ve always thought it a bit silly, I think this kind of rating is better put to use (in a bit more detail though) against patterns (this is really needed btw). I agree with everyone above, this is not a popularity contest, we’ve already seem the dramas from that kind of thinking with the scarf dress challenge! Comments and “favouriting” is enough, let’s stick with genuine encouragement and get rid of the faceless ratings :)

I agree with everything that was said here. I prefer comments – no matter whether the commented creation/pattern/technique was mine or someone else’s.
I have to admit I felt a bit offended by low ratings some of my creations got. Especially because I wasn’t able to see who rated my creations, and there was no explanation for low rating. I am an experienced sewer, and low ratings will not discourage me, but some novice might get completely discouraged by these mean ratings.
Rating a creation isn’t particularly informative, and it surely isn’t helpful.

Not as discouraged as somebody who doesn’t get ratings or comments sobs…grins

But yes I agree, some of the pattern instructions are a little difficult to understand and sometimes I wonder if it wouldn’t be helpful to have two sets of instructions, one in beginner speak and then one in expert speak. At least that would give a point of reference so that novices could download both, learn the terminology but also not be completely flummoxed/intimidated by it.

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This is an awesome idea!!! unfortunately at this point we don’t have the man power to do this! however, as a member you have the ability to comment on each step of the instructions should you want to go in there, that would be totalyl awesome!

Tell you what, I have an idea that may or may not work. I’ll give it a go over the next few days and see if it works. If it does I will road test it on a couple of friends and then send it to you. How does that work for you?

I just would like to say that I love Burda and that I am glad elainemay posted this topic.
I agree with everyone above. As a ‘freshie’ in the sewing world instructions are very
important and AnaJan ( I am sure people love your postings, I know that I do and
it is difficult to post every step, particularly for an expert like yourself- who has forgotten
the struggles of starting out- us beginners who shudder at the sight of a buttonhole!)
I wanted to point out that I had NO HONK’in idea about what that rating system was about.
(totally no idea) I figured it was the responsibility of the person who was posting their
creation to rate how much they liked making it/ the overall result !!! ( I had no idea other
people rated our work.) Seems like the rating system might be useful if the person
making the garment rated it on the likes of ease, fit, etc….
Just a thought!

I’d like to apologise to AnaJan – I accidentally marked her comment as inapropriate, but I actually wanted to reply to it! Which isn’t possible, because her post is already a reply to another post… but I realised that too late. Sorry!

And my reply was to be this: Yes, I would also prefer comments on the patterns again. It was sometimes a very useful source of information from other users!

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Dear Elaine, thank you for actually speaking out the words that have been piling inside me for a couple of months now. The incredible (vicious as I perceive them) low ratings have continued to appear for -according to my opinion and likes – some excellent creations. Yet nothing has been done about this issue!
So here’s a proposal to BS: Why don’t you make it possible for the raters to be seen – just as anyone can witness what we have favourited – why not show the person i.e. the user that gives the rating??
Expose them!! Let us all see how ‘expert’ they are! Let us all see the ones who give low ratings! I bet they’ll not be so easy on the rating click then, will they!!!

Oh, come on! You certainly don’t give the lowest rating by accident! And if you do – there is always space for the one making mistake to come out clean and admit she/he has done it by accidence. Like Marmota did a couple of posts above! And a note for the low raters – whenever I see you low rating a creation I give my highest for the relevant creation! Being a teacher myself, I know what a low rating can do – so shame on you low raters being a part of a community which attempts to build bridges, enhance knowledge, and be supportive and helpful.

As we all know- it is not an easy job performing in front of ungrateful audience!

Besides – if anyone does not ‘like’ other people’s creations then why not abstain from rating?

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I agree negative feedback is destructive.It also takes a lot of courage for someone to post something on here. A step I haven’t taken yet!

When I was looking at this issue I gave my first rating. I feel it IS possible to accidently rate incorrectly. There are no instructions on how to physically rate something, ie Click on circle that corresponds to your rating. As a result I was simply waving my cursor over the whole area and clicking away.

Admittedly you only take one rating to learn how to do it, but it is possible to make a mistake. Newer users, would be the most likely people to make this error, and they may not feel confident enough to admit this in the space at the bottom, ot on the other members profile.

You couldn’t have said it better Sewella…. I agree… If you don’t like something then don’t rate it…. Better to have no rating at all than feel that someone has deliberately given you a low rating especially after you’ve proably spent hours or days pouring your soul into the garment

I agree with elaine and you too sewella.
I have logged in today to find two of my latest projects rated as 1’s. I may just be sensetive, but It did upset me a bit as daft as it sounds.
I always liked Burda for being a supportive site, but this has changed my mind.
I was always taught if you haven’t got anything nice to say don’t say anything at all. I feel this applies to ratings.
I wouldn’t dare rate anything low on this site as I know how much guts it takes to share your hard work with people. A low rating especially to a new member who’s new to sewing could put them off attempting anything else.

I’m with AnaJan on the need for feedback on Patterns and Techniques. I have to say that I’ve had extended feedback, including for individual steps, on many of my pattern drafting instructions in the Techniques section, and this feedback has been of crucial importance in improving the clarity of the instructions, removing errors, and generally resulting in a more effective product. The whole reason for putting these things up there is to serve others, and the more means provided for feedback and quality control, the better from my perspective.

On the ratings, I have kept away from the discussion so far (although I think I did participate in any earlier discussion on this issue). In general, I feel the same way as elainemay about the ratings – I think they confuse the issue more than they help. I rely on the number of people who’ve Favorited my Projects or Techniques as an indication of how well I am doing. Several of my Techniques have ratings of 3/5, even though more than 15000 people have viewed them and hundreds have favorited them! Go figure… I have no real idea how to interpret what that means. If they were mediocre, why are they so popular? Is it because they are, or appear to be, complicated? So I’ve stopped paying much attention to the ratings.

I do sometimes rate other people’s work, but mostly only if I want to give a 5 star rating – I think something is fabulous and I want to support it. I don’t necessarily select this as a Favorite, I tend to pick my Favorites as things I am inspired by for my own projects and want to refer back to, so not all stunning things go into that category. Hence, from my perspective, we could get rid of the 1-4 stars, and just keep the 5 stars! You vote for it… or you don’t vote.

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i fully agree with all of you that we do not need a rating! if i like something very much, i favorite it and i can comment anything, as soon as i like a project. i do not use the rating function at all.

I believe that the rating system doesn’t seem to serve constructive feedback at this stage.

If the rating system was to survive, I think that there could be 3 alternatives or changes which may increase its value.

1. The average rating that you give should be listed on your profile page. In an earlier post there is a suggestion of greater visibility about who has rated a project, and what that rating was. My idea differs slightly, because it will prevent a ‘vendetta’ developing between members, but will still encourage people to rate projects with consideration, because there will be a consequence. Personally I like to look at profiles, because I like to see member’s other projects, and I think I would not feel as positive toward a member if they regularly rated other members with low ratings.

2. Instead of an overall rating, perhaps there could be several ratings (perhaps up to 3) that will clarify why a member is rating a certain way. This follows on from Gedwoods statement ‘Several of my Techniques have ratings of 3/5, even though more than 15000 people have viewed them and hundreds have favorite them’. It is unclear why members have marked this way; was it not original, not clear, were the diagrams/ pictures accompanying the technique not up to scratch. Personally, I doubt these criticisms could be made about Gedwood’s work. By rating on things like originality, clarity, diagrams, usefulness etc, this will allow the contributor to develop their presentation skills. For a project the options could be originality, creativeness, construction, fabric choice etc, once again allowing a member to view their work critically. This option doesn’t prevent negative anonymous ratings, but may add some value to the rating system and an insight into how other members are viewing work.

3. An assumption is being made that 5 is the best. Coming from Australia, if I wanted to rate something highly I would rate if 5/5 and judging from the above posts this seems to be a common understanding. However the site is International and opinions may differ. For example the scale used on the Burda Fashion website uses a different scale: 1 is [like] very much and 5 is not [like]. A current failing of the Burdastyle rating system is that it fails to clearly state whether 5 is a high or low rating. Users of both sites could be confused about the rating scale, placing a line of text underneath the rating bar may clarify the issue and provide a quick solution.

I would be interested in what others thought of these 3 ideas.

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Great ideas, I especially like no 1.
I’m from Sweden, and for me it’s very normal that on a scale from 1-5, 1 is low, low and 5 is top notch. Especially when the scale is made like little red dots that are either lit or not :-).
I do think it should be possible to change a rating though. So I say keep the scale but change the system. And replace the scale with thumbs up (no thumbs down) for projects, to encourage encouragement rather than discouragement.

I agree with most people here about the uselessness of the 1-5 ratings, especially when they in mostly come with no clarification from the voter as to why the project would be worth one star, or what makes it excellent. Simply removing the anonymous rating would be the best option in my opinion, rather than replacing it with one where you can only rate things positively (by giving thumbs up or being pressured into only giving positive ratings through the ratings being visible on your profile), or a more complicated and specialized voting system.
For simply liking something we do still have the favorites option, which I think is good, and, of course commenting.

Actually, when I went to investigate further, I realized that the “ratings” of my Techniques are only based on a few votes (less than ten), so obviously hardly anyone is using these as a means of providing feedback.

Reading Pedal’s comments, the first idea is a bit like eBay’s seller and buyer rating system – where you can see the average rating a buyer is giving. However, on eBay we are strongly encouraged to give a rating (and strongly encourage to give a high rating!), so this is very different from BurdaStyle, as is the context. Perhaps we should only rate items for Sale, that would be closer to the eBay model.

Although I like the suggestion of more specific evaluation of Techniques, I am uncertain whether the results will be really any different from the current system. As I indicated, direct verbal feedback is the best evaluation and I’m not sure what a more detailed voting framework will provide over and above such comments – it seems like using a chainsaw to cut butter. In a context where comments are difficult to make (or too abundant) it might make sense, here on BurdaStyle I’m not so sure.

As to the value of 5 (or 1), the BurdaStyle system is a star system, not a numerical rating. I think it’s pretty intuitive that more stars means better. The number is used only after the fact, to refer to the rating given. I agree culture comes into it, but I don’t know anyplace that gives fewer “stars” for better performance – although I know several schemes that give a numerical value of 1 to a better performance (and schemes that award a value of “D” as higher than “A”!).

I actually like the rating system. It is a quick way for me to say “Hey, I like your garment, it looks well made” even if I find the general design of the pattern not very exciting. So that way even if I can’t come up with a comment I can still show I liked it.

My opinion is…
1) Keep ratings for patterns + techniques – but maybe 2 ratings for each a) for how well you like the pattern/technique, and b) for how easy it was to follow the pattern/technique. (This would help people see how a) popular, and b) easy/straight-forward those things are.)

2) Remove ratings from ‘Projects’ and have just x1 button…. a “Like it” button (but definitely do not have a “Dislike” button)… you could then see that x123 people “Liked” this Project.

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1) The 2+ rating idea is great! It’ll actually make it clear why a pattern didnt get 5 stars. Or, maybe the rating system should be similar to ebay or amazon, where you can explain why you gave it the rating you did!

2) I think having the Like feature would be awesome and widely used! When I like a project, sometimes I would like to be able to let the creator know without “favoriting” it or commenting on it. Usually, I only favorite projects that inspire me or projects I’d like to make! And I don’t always comment on a project because I can’t think of anything to say that hasn’t already been posted!

I agree with this post too, that’s what I as a member have been looking for. I want to like projects more than rate them, and if possible, I would like to have all the projects I like listed somewhere similar to my favourites.

I would love to have some more constructive feedback on my items. Often what people do in educational settings is they have a “rubric” for grading. We could do the same thing. It could have different categories with each choice level explained so that posters would have helpful feedback. Here is an example…maybe not the terminology we want to use, but hopefully you’ll get the idea. Each item could have a place for comments so that the selection for each item could be further explained to help the person understand and do it better next time.

1. Construction: a) The edges look good, the piece is ironed appropriately, … b) the seams were not ironed, the fabric was cut off-grain, the seams pucker a little, c) The garment edges are not at all finished…

2. Originality: a) I have never seen this design before, b) this follows a pattern but has unique design elements, c) this completely follows the pattern

3. Display: a) The item is photographed/displayed in a way that shows off it’s best features b) the photograph is dark, blurry, or otherwise does not demonstrate well the item

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Do you honestly expect everyone to love everything you’ve made? I probably would not have commented on this either, but man did that post sound whiney. I have commented on your creations in the past and you never respond, so I don’t comment on your stuff any longer. I don’t give ratings to non 4 sale items. I only rate items that are 4 sale. I think that if someone posts an item for sale and it is crap or horribly over priced, it deserves a low rating. I also do not do this anonymously, I leave a comment stating why the low rating.

gedwoods: Your tunic is really nice! A 1 is a very strange vote for it, but as Wacky Blonde says, I think we all have to expect that that there will always be people with a different tast to our own.
Also, I think it MIGHT have to do with cultural differences. In Scandinavia, and (I know for a fact in Japan too) and possibly loads of other countries, it’s basically taboo to use words such as “elegant”, “beautiful” etc. about your own creations. Even if they ARE beautiful and elegant, but it’s really, really important to be humble here (much more so than in the US). For someone from that kind of culture, it sounds as if you think too much of yourself if you write very positively about your own creations (it’s ok to write that you’re relly, really pleased with them though, compex…), and that might cause irritation.
I’m not saying that’s why your tunic got a low rate, but it might be part of the reason.
As for having to reply to comments (as WackyBlonde writes) I don’t think anyone has to leave a reply to the comments… I don’t expect an answer to my comments. And I don’t always reply to comments on my projects. But I do appreciate them! I hope no-one is offended if I don’t leave a reply… (I do try to answer questions though, like I know Gedwoods does).
I guess it’s a bit similar to the ratings, one has to be prepared to recieve low ratings, and should not expect answers to all comments, but I think we all appreciate hight ratings and answers :-)

I have withdrawn the comment. You are both right, this was silly on my part. I also agree with you over the use of the word “elegant” – this is not my usual style to overstate things. I got carried away. I’ve removed the word from the description.

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I forgot to write that I actually think it’s better if it’s ok to use positive words about yourself/your own creations… :-). I mean, if you’re proud of something it should be ok to say so, in proud words! But that’s just the way it is… we have something here that we call something like “the law of Jante”, that basically states that: “you should not believe that you are anything”. Stupid, eh? Fortunately, most of us are only partly affected by it (i.e. not as humble as we should be)! And I think it’s changing somewhat.
Complex issue. I mean, if you sell something (or promote it), it must be ok to write nicely about it, even if it’s your own creation.
But then, I do react negatively about some descriptions here, when people write too many “awsome” and “beautiful” about their own creations. So, well…
Culture is complex, as I often realise…

As a novice sewer & newcomer to your fabulously designed & run site…
I do find the ratings odd & intimidating. i sew because it’s fun, not for approval. I joined for the community for advice, encouragement, critique, & look forward to it.

I don’t see the “rate this” section on the individual project pages today. Am I the only one? I still see the blank rating dots on the main projects page. Is this a website bug or has this feature been eliminated?

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I liked India True’s comment. Having been here for a few years, it’s harder for me to imagine how it feels if you just joined. But there were no ratings when I joined and if there were, I would have been much less likely to post any of my projects. I think trying to make this place as inviting for new sewers as possible should be a high priority, because to my mind the original goal of burdastyle was to take sewing and make it super accessible and friendly; in fact it was what helped me get started sewing.

I currently use ratings the way that gedwoods has said, I 5 star things I think are very nice, but I favorite only the things that I might make or have elements that inspire me in my creations. But if the ratings went away I wouldn’t miss them at all, replacing them with “like” makes the most sense, And finally I think it’s easy to mistakenly rate something differently than you intended. I know because I accidentally gave someone a 4 instead of the intended 5, and I felt really, really bad about it.

I recently posted something which i was really proud of, and to be honest what i think is the one of the best things ive ever made. It really hurts when you can see that 3 people have left ratings of ‘3’, even before anyone comments! thankfully people have left some very nice comments (which have lifted my spirits!!), but it makes me wonder what kind of people just leave low ratings and dont make a valuable comment to contribute? (im just going to assume they are pretentious tossers who really need to go sew instead of give people low ratings…)…. I dont know! It just doesnt seem right that people can use that function to ultimately put you down?

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And it doesn’t tell you what the rating is for: design? Fabric and colour choice? Sewing skill?

Ignore the ratings and just read the comments.

I COULD nit-pick about a lot of folk’s projects if I was feeling mean, but where would THAT get anyone? Mine aren’t perfect either! And you have some really fun things up, even if they are not to my exact tastes. Life would be deadly if we all liked the same stuff all the time.

I agree that it just seems so b:y unncecessary to leave low rates! It seems like some people leave high rates only to very complicated projects. The harder to sew, the higher the rate, the easier to sew, the lower. That kind of makes sense I guess, but I disagree with the principle. Simple can be brilliant, i.m.h.o. It’s more about style to me. But then I don’t like the rating system at all, I’d SO prefer a thumbs-up-system!
With the ratings, apart from people giving high rates only to very complicated projects, others seem to give low ratings if they don’t like the style, or if they think the clothes are too revealing, like a political statement.
Now, I’m probably a lot more liberal than they are, but I really disagree with that.
But then again, I don’t like the rating-scale; again: I’d prefer thumbs up, only. No thumbs up would be discouragement enough, I hate bullying-inducing systems!.

Remember that the individual votes on your 3 star rated project could as well be 5, 3, and 2. The rating shown is just an average. I would guess most projects’ votes are of the extreme ends of the scale anyway — simply because people online tend to be a little black-and-white. And also the more votes a project has, the easier it is for the average of votes to sink.

I would also guess the people leaving a low voting for not liking something would often have nothing valuable and constructive to say as their reasonings anyway. Otherwise we’d have considerably more constructive criticism in the comments, especially for the low-rated projects.

It seems like so often the low ratings are directed at someone’s body weight, or a too “slutty” neckline, or trivial things not related to people’s actual sewing skills.

I’ve been on the site since the beginning of the year and I have to say, that I could never really figure out what the ratings scale was all about. I usually ignore that function.

I would love to have a “like” button. I don’t always have something specific to say about a project, but would like to offer encouragement or a figurative pat on the back to someone.

To me, sewing is so individual and we are all trying to develop our skills and our creativity in the way that makes the most sense to us. I would hate to think that a low rating, or no ratings, would stop someone or erode their confidence.

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