Mrtraveler01:meow said the dog: Hold on I thought they could no longer make the profits due to the Obamacare?

Considering that most of the R&D is done in places like Europe, Southeast Asia and Israel. I'm not surprised.

THIS. Pfizer, for one, has closed the big research centers in the US that discovered its most profitable drugs. Mainly because the morons in charge of the company run it the same way they would McDonald's.

jchic:Why do you think the medical industry is more interested in treating symptoms rather than fighting the root cause of disease?

This is only partially true.Take hypertension as an example. HT is caused by a myriad of diseases, genetic conditions and just plain you are fat and out of shape. Drugs which treat the HT are a god send and keep 100s of millions of people alive everyday. If you think for a second that a drug company wouldnt want to create a "perfect" diet pill then you are insane.

A bigger problem is the medical diagnosing community/insurance companies to start with.I have HT, but my doctor (like almost all the rest) treated the symptoms. A couple tests were done to rule out the major causes, but in the end, she treated the symptoms, rather than the cause. This happens over and over for the majority of americans. The drug companies are feeding the doctors and the insurance companies/doctors are failing the patients.

In the end, it would have saved the insurance companies tons of dollars doing proper diagnosis, rather than paying for never ending drugs prescriptions.

Perfect example is kidney dialysis vs transplant. Transplant is tons cheaper long term.And for every condition which is being treated by drugs, there is an opportunity for someone to come up with a cure. Come up with a better vaccine against the common cold?? Even if I needed a shot ever year??? Come up with a cure for aids/hiv? Hello Nobel Prize and fame. and you would be selling that drug like crazy in the rich countries.

Alas, you are completely correct about part of the problem.Take a quick look at the cure for ulcers. The cure was KNOWN for many years before it came to america. Strangely enough, the cure appeared in america about the same time as the patent expiration for tagamet and zantac, pepcid, prilosec ....

Mugato:Marcus Aurelius: They spend several times more on marketing than on R&D, thanks to laws allowing them to advertise on TV and radio. They paid good money for those laws. And the return is spectacular.

Mugato:Marcus Aurelius: They spend several times more on marketing than on R&D, thanks to laws allowing them to advertise on TV and radio. They paid good money for those laws. And the return is spectacular.

Mugato:Well a lot of the ads are for boner and contraceptive pills so it's not just old people who are the marks

Well, it mostly seems the boner pills are marketed to the over 50 crowd, based on the actors that i have seen.Now, if those companies gave a crap about actual health, if they spent a half of their budgets on marketing and dedicated that to r & D, we might actually see a way to beat many of the diseases that really need cures.Of course, it would still cost 5 times as much for the cure, in the US- I mean, that bentley or 8th house aint buying themselves...

If I understood my psych professor correctly, once they figured out what gets people to buy in to a particular scenario, they're far more likely to do what sells over what is actually working.

Case in point, that Roche BC drug that got its approval yanked - despite what I read about the cost, questionable success or effectiveness, people were going BONKERS when they stopped selling it.

I'm all for treating BC as effectively as possible, but the stuff didn't apparently work for most of the people who took it, and you could buy a good house for the cost over time. Psychology + advertising is a bad bad place to get into unless you have no conscience. At which point, line them up against the wall, please.

Try losing your job and insurance when you're on Stelara to clear your psoriasis. I was totally clear of the horrible skin disease on that drug. Months later I'm covered in plaque. Basically your skin grows too fast and dies off leaving pieces of dead skin the size of corn flakes that itch to no end. I called the pharma company to see If I could purchase it and have my dermatologist give me the shot (required 4 times a year). The price for one injection is $6,900 or close to $28,000 dollars per year. Wearing shorts is a luxury to me.

MugzyBrown:downstairs: This. I go to my doctor with symtoms, I trust him to figure the best drug for me.

I too prefer to be totally uneducated on a subject and let the doctor pick the medicine with the hottest pharma rep or biggest kick-backs for my problem like the good ole days

That's why the commercials are so great! Instead of the patient being unsure about the New Drug the physician is recommending, they're on board from the get-go; after all, they saw it on TV! Everybody* wins!

*"Everybody" includes, and is limited to shareholders of New Drug, INC.

The first boner pills were an accidental side effect while working on something to help people with pulmonary hypertension (and mountain climbers). It just turned out that boners make more money than keeping people with PAH (like me) alive a little longer.

Marcus Aurelius:They spend several times more on marketing than on R&D, thanks to laws allowing them to advertise on TV and radio. They paid good money for those laws. And the return is spectacular.

Several? NINETEEN TIMES as much according to TFA.

Mugato:Marcus Aurelius: They spend several times more on marketing than on R&D, thanks to laws allowing them to advertise on TV and radio. They paid good money for those laws. And the return is spectacular.

NowhereMon:Not to mention that you can write off 100% of your R&D expenses.

Um, write-off doesn't mean it's free, and that's conditional.

But yeah, speaking as someone on the science end of things, generally speaking the techniques for standard drug delivery and rapid chemical modification have been getting easier (i.e. cheaper) not harder. The idea that the same amount of research to obtain a drug as you'd put in ten years ago is somehow more expensive than it was ten years ago (inflation aside) is kind of an extraordinary claim that I'd want some solid citations for before I believed it to begin with.

So... How would that work? A company would invest millions into developing a new drug and then just hand it over to the competition? They'd go out of business with a model like that.

Before we had patents, we had trade secrets (technically there are still trade secrets, they're just protected by contract law rather than law law). You would carefully not tell anyone what was in your product, throw random harmless functionalities onto your chemicals to confuse spectrometers, engage in a lot of low-level industrial espionage, etc.

Basically drugs used to be handled the way the Coke/Pepsi conflict was handled (albeit we _had_ patents, the protection at the time was just extremely minimal and enforcement was almost entirely beyond the capacity of the feds). I kinda prefer the current system where people can take the information and build on it, even if they're not allowed to replicate it exactly. It's a good compromise that keeps all the wheels turning.

Of course they do. You expect them to do that work for only a modest profit? Who the fark would bother making medicine without lavish compensation?

To be fair, some of it's justified in that a lot of the big companies have regulatory arrangements that allow them to charge more on the condition that they supply things like emergency vaccines en masse for basically free whenever the CDC tells them to. So it's not entirely them just being greedy. You tend to not go into medicine if you're a completedick.

AliceBToklasLives:fusillade762: Also don't mention that government research is responsible a lot of these drugs.

According to the NIH, taxpayer-funded scientists conducted 55 percent of the research projects that led to the discovery and development of the top five selling drugs in 1995

Taxpayers take the risk and private companies get the profits. How our glorious free market system works, right?

Well, most bio labs are something like 90 to 95% industry funded now (in 1995 it would have been more like 60% industry funded, so the private guys were still chipping in more than the taxpayers), so I guess you got your wish on that one.

Marcus Aurelius:Mugato: Marcus Aurelius: They spend several times more on marketing than on R&D, thanks to laws allowing them to advertise on TV and radio. They paid good money for those laws. And the return is spectacular.

I work for a company that makes pharmacy information systems among other things. The other day I got a chance to really get my hands into the system and learn it. The most shocking thing about it was the recommended drug prices (which was listed right next to the retail price). Really, it was unfarking believable. I think everyone knows theres an enormous markup but holy shiat if people knew just how badly they were getting raped on this stuff they would riot. Not sure how relevant this is to the article since this is about hospitals but I mean...damn.

The pharmaceutical industry is full of shiat. In the last 15 years the great majority of medical advances have NOT been from the USA, they are from dirty socialist countries like Germany (cure for AIDS) and Japan (medical equipment).

MugzyBrown:downstairs: This. I go to my doctor with symtoms, I trust him to figure the best drug for me.

I too prefer to be totally uneducated on a subject and let the doctor pick the medicine with the hottest pharma rep or biggest kick-backs for my problem like the good ole days

THIS

/Trusting doctors is pretty stupid for the most part, IMO//The odds of them either having an ulterior motive for prescribing drugs or simply being a moron are high enough to be alarming///I'm not one of those homeopathic nuts, either

pxlboy:MBooda: aaaand their legal expenses are skyrocketing six times faster than their revenues.

You wish

And even if that WAS true, if only there was a way for pharmaceutical companies to limit the suits they lose. Like I don't know, properly vetting your drugs and making sure that diabetes drug isn't going to kill your customers. Whacky thought, I know.

Grobbley:MugzyBrown: downstairs: This. I go to my doctor with symtoms, I trust him to figure the best drug for me.

I too prefer to be totally uneducated on a subject and let the doctor pick the medicine with the hottest pharma rep or biggest kick-backs for my problem like the good ole days

THIS

/Trusting doctors is pretty stupid for the most part, IMO//The odds of them either having an ulterior motive for prescribing drugs or simply being a moron are high enough to be alarming///I'm not one of those homeopathic nuts, either

Right, so the solution is to get educated with those commercials of people running on the beach and giving you a name of a drug based on a Star Trek alien name generator. THAT will convince your doctor to get what you need. A doctor who gives you drugs based on what you tell him to give is called a dealer.

didn't read the article; didn't read the thread. the whole idea of doing so made me so upset that i needed to sublingual 2mg of clonazepam just to feel ok. then i popped an extra lamictal and clozapine just to make sure. anyway, what's the question? and where did my bed go? i want it, but it disappeared.

Mugato:Grobbley: MugzyBrown: downstairs: This. I go to my doctor with symtoms, I trust him to figure the best drug for me.

I too prefer to be totally uneducated on a subject and let the doctor pick the medicine with the hottest pharma rep or biggest kick-backs for my problem like the good ole days

THIS

/Trusting doctors is pretty stupid for the most part, IMO//The odds of them either having an ulterior motive for prescribing drugs or simply being a moron are high enough to be alarming///I'm not one of those homeopathic nuts, either

Right, so the solution is to get educated with those commercials of people running on the beach and giving you a name of a drug based on a Star Trek alien name generator. THAT will convince your doctor to get what you need. A doctor who gives you drugs based on what you tell him to give is called a dealer.

I'm not suggesting that people should educate themselves with commercials, I'm suggesting that people shouldn't trust their doctor to figure out the best drugs for them just because they have a license. If you think Big Pharma doesn't have a strong influence on how your doctor practices medicine, you are most likely wrong. I've known a couple of doctors and they were pretty straight with me about the fact that they always have pharma reps taking them out to dinner, bringing in breakfast, fruit trays, assorted gifts, and any number of other things that border on bribery to push their drugs. It's ultimately not much different than lobbyists in Washington.

In a nutshell, I'm saying that to say "I don't trust drug advertisements but I do trust my doctor" is about the same as "I don't trust corporations to do the right thing, but I do trust the government/my representatives to do the right thing"

MasterThief:Meanwhile, here's an actual drug researcher explaining why this study is full of shiat. (Which is, ironically, linked in TFA.)

^^^THIS. It's a much better article. TFA is the pharmaceutical version of birthers. Although I can't really blame people for being suspicious, because the industry is somewhat shrouded in mystery. There's essentially no way for a lay person to know this kind of information without years and years of schooling/research/work experience.

Grobbley:In a nutshell, I'm saying that to say "I don't trust drug advertisements but I do trust my doctor" is about the same as "I don't trust corporations to do the right thing, but I do trust the government/my representatives to do the right thing"

Alright but doctors do have the whole Hippocratic Oath thing and no, I'm not saying that it means that doctors are beyond reproach but doctors can get sued for malpractice very easily and they can lose their entire career very easily so yes, I will trust a doctor's advice over that of a commercial if for no other reason that a doctor has a lot to lose if he farks up.

Grobbley:In a nutshell, I'm saying that to say "I don't trust drug advertisements but I do trust my doctor" is about the same as "I don't trust corporations to do the right thing, but I do trust the government/my representatives to do the right thing"

No it's not.

It's more like "I don't trust the guy randomly cold-calling me about a hot stock tip, but I do trust my financial adviser." You may have hired a financial adviser who is trying to rip you off, but if you weren't smart enough to hire someone reputable then you're probably going to do just as badly doing it yourself.

Stop hating America. Making a fortune by butt raping the oblivious middle class is what America is all about. If you don't like it, go to some socialist country that does not appreciate ass plundering atlases.

Fact: Just because this is true, does not mean the pharmaceutical companies are in a nefarious conspiracy with the RAND Corporation and the Saucer people to keep you sick for profit. It also does not mean that VItamin D cures cancer, or that vaccines cause autism.

hitlersbrain:Stop hating America. Making a fortune by butt raping the oblivious middle class is what America is all about. If you don't like it, go to some socialist country that does not appreciate ass plundering atlases.

So? There are numerous drugs that are sourced from animals. Hell, google "Fecal Transplant ICU". if you really want to be grossed out.

What point are you trying to make here?

Amos Quito:Pfizer has paid out over $600 million in settlements due to breast cancer caused by the menopause drug PremPro - so far.

Except that Hormone Replacement Therapy is no longer recommended to be used except in unique, case by case circumstances, and the patients are educated that it causes an increased risk of breast cancer with estrogen-receptor tumors.

God-is-a-Taco:Marcus Aurelius:They do it because it sells, especially with old people. Lots of them will do any damn thing the TV tells them to do.

You poor fool. I used to be like you, but now I'm on Ageless Male.I'm stronger than I used to be, I have more energy, and I'm ready for romance if the time comes.

Targeted advertising is hilarious. The Military Channel has some of the best stuff. The demographic is clearly 50+ year old overweight men with shattered dreams of glory.

There's one for a weight-loss pill (can't remember the name), where you will be able to lose weight without changing your diet or exercising. There's a lady narrating it that says, "...only for people who are serious about losing weight." I can just imagine how many people get that hook set deep because it makes these pills sound like high-potency, serious business.

/fine print says they lost something like an average of 4 pounds over three months

Mike Chewbacca:pxlboy: MBooda: aaaand their legal expenses are skyrocketing six times faster than their revenues.

You wish

And even if that WAS true, if only there was a way for pharmaceutical companies to limit the suits they lose. Like I don't know, properly vetting your drugs and making sure that diabetes drug isn't going to kill your customers. Whacky thought, I know.

Mutt Farkinov:God-is-a-Taco: Marcus Aurelius:They do it because it sells, especially with old people. Lots of them will do any damn thing the TV tells them to do.

You poor fool. I used to be like you, but now I'm on Ageless Male.I'm stronger than I used to be, I have more energy, and I'm ready for romance if the time comes.

Targeted advertising is hilarious. The Military Channel has some of the best stuff. The demographic is clearly 50+ year old overweight men with shattered dreams of glory.

There's one for a weight-loss pill (can't remember the name), where you will be able to lose weight without changing your diet or exercising. There's a lady narrating it that says, "...only for people who are serious about losing weight." I can just imagine how many people get that hook set deep because it makes these pills sound like high-potency, serious business.

/fine print says they lost something like an average of 4 pounds over three months

Diet pill commercials amaze me. I suppose there are people desperate (or more likely dumb) enough to believe that they can continue to stuff their faces while sitting on the couch and still lose weight.

Tyranicle:hitlersbrain: Stop hating America. Making a fortune by butt raping the oblivious middle class is what America is all about. If you don't like it, go to some socialist country that does not appreciate ass plundering atlases.

Ahh. A sarcastic jew who names himself 'Hitler'.

One day, I'ma be so rich, that I can buy my moms a houseHave a livin' room with a big TV and I'ma still sleep on the couchI'ma have 'em likeOy vey, holy cow, oh my god, wowOy vey, holy cow, oh my god, wowIt seems I'm gettin' fresher every time they turn around likeOy vey, holy cow, oh my god, wow

Mutt Farkinov:God-is-a-Taco: Marcus Aurelius:They do it because it sells, especially with old people. Lots of them will do any damn thing the TV tells them to do.

You poor fool. I used to be like you, but now I'm on Ageless Male.I'm stronger than I used to be, I have more energy, and I'm ready for romance if the time comes.

Targeted advertising is hilarious. The Military Channel has some of the best stuff. The demographic is clearly 50+ year old overweight men with shattered dreams of glory.

There's one for a weight-loss pill (can't remember the name), where you will be able to lose weight without changing your diet or exercising. There's a lady narrating it that says, "...only for people who are serious about losing weight." I can just imagine how many people get that hook set deep because it makes these pills sound like high-potency, serious business.

/fine print says they lost something like an average of 4 pounds over three months

If they want to spend money on drugs to lose weight, there's always cocaine or meth.

BMFPitt:Grobbley: In a nutshell, I'm saying that to say "I don't trust drug advertisements but I do trust my doctor" is about the same as "I don't trust corporations to do the right thing, but I do trust the government/my representatives to do the right thing"

No it's not.

It's more like "I don't trust the guy randomly cold-calling me about a hot stock tip, but I do trust my financial adviser." You may have hired a financial adviser who is trying to rip you off, but if you weren't smart enough to hire someone reputable then you're probably going to do just as badly doing it yourself.

The drug company only wants to make a profit and your doctor is only investing 15 minutes in your well-being.

It's YOUR health. Why should you trust anyone? When you're prescribed a drug, ASK YOUR DOCTOR QUESTIONS about the benefits, the side effects, interactions, contradictions, withdrawals, etc. And then ask your pharmacist - who probably knows more about the drug than your MD.

Then do you OWN research on the drug using reputable literature and websites (pubmed, webmd, etc.) Read peer reviewed studies.

Then find out what actual users of the product are saying. Ask A Patient is a great website. Type in the name of the drug you've been prescribed and read the experiences of others.

Finally, pay attention to your body. Each drug works differently for each individual. If it's not working well for you, contact your doctor. There are probably a dozen alternatives.

Bottom line: You're the one who has to live with the consequences.

Not your doctor, not the drug company, not the insurance company, YOU.

laid back w/bud light:Try losing your job and insurance when you're on Stelara to clear your psoriasis. I was totally clear of the horrible skin disease on that drug. Months later I'm covered in plaque. Basically your skin grows too fast and dies off leaving pieces of dead skin the size of corn flakes that itch to no end. I called the pharma company to see If I could purchase it and have my dermatologist give me the shot (required 4 times a year). The price for one injection is $6,900 or close to $28,000 dollars per year. Wearing shorts is a luxury to me.

Mugato:Grobbley: In a nutshell, I'm saying that to say "I don't trust drug advertisements but I do trust my doctor" is about the same as "I don't trust corporations to do the right thing, but I do trust the government/my representatives to do the right thing"

Alright but doctors do have the whole Hippocratic Oath thing and no, I'm not saying that it means that doctors are beyond reproach but doctors can get sued for malpractice very easily and they can lose their entire career very easily so yes, I will trust a doctor's advice over that of a commercial if for no other reason that a doctor has a lot to lose if he farks up.

I'm also not necessarily suggesting that trusting a doctor will get you killed. I'm just suggesting that they likely don't always have your best interest at heart. For instance, they might have a few different options for medicines to prescribe you, some cheaper than others, but they prescribe the more expensive option because some rep will keep giving them free stuff if they do. Not necessarily malpractice, just not in your best interest.

I'm actually getting a kick out of this right now, because I'm having to argue with my insurance company over the drugs I've been prescribed.

Vyvance (Lisdextroamfetamine) is a wonderful drug. It's got a lot of efficacy studies out there, it's got a favorable side effect profile, and a low abuse and addiction potential. 250 dollars a month. Insurance company is not wanting to pay for it.

BUT.

THey're happy paying for Desoxyn. Desoxyn is METHAMPHETAMINE. High abuse and addiction potential, high cardiovascular side effect potential.

namatad:jchic: Why do you think the medical industry is more interested in treating symptoms rather than fighting the root cause of disease?

This is only partially true.Take hypertension as an example. HT is caused by a myriad of diseases, genetic conditions and just plain you are fat and out of shape. Drugs which treat the HT are a god send and keep 100s of millions of people alive everyday. If you think for a second that a drug company wouldnt want to create a "perfect" diet pill then you are insane.

Please to explain. I understand that the company(s) that make HT drugs wouldn't want to create a "perfect" diet pill. Are they the only companies making drugs? Surely there is some drug company somewhere who isn't making HT drugs that could make a perfect diet pill, if it were possible.

Or do you just eat conspiracies for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day?

Grobbley:Mugato: Grobbley: In a nutshell, I'm saying that to say "I don't trust drug advertisements but I do trust my doctor" is about the same as "I don't trust corporations to do the right thing, but I do trust the government/my representatives to do the right thing"

Alright but doctors do have the whole Hippocratic Oath thing and no, I'm not saying that it means that doctors are beyond reproach but doctors can get sued for malpractice very easily and they can lose their entire career very easily so yes, I will trust a doctor's advice over that of a commercial if for no other reason that a doctor has a lot to lose if he farks up.

I'm also not necessarily suggesting that trusting a doctor will get you killed. I'm just suggesting that they likely don't always have your best interest at heart. For instance, they might have a few different options for medicines to prescribe you, some cheaper than others, but they prescribe the more expensive option because some rep will keep giving them free stuff if they do. Not necessarily malpractice, just not in your best interest.

I think the best point out of this is do your research, and get a second opinion when a doctor prescribes a drug to you that is new, or that makes you feel uneasy based on that research. Especially if the doctor can't answer your questions to your satisfaction. But don't believe everything you read on the internet. Testimonials are not a good way to get information, because there are a lot of variables that affect individuals who take a certain medication.

Empowerment is great, but - in the end - you're a patient, not a Doctor. University of Google does not take the place of a medical education, and years of clinical experience that a family doctor, or a specialist has in their field.

So? There are numerous drugs that are sourced from animals. Hell, google "Fecal Transplant ICU". if you really want to be grossed out.

What point are you trying to make here?

Amos Quito: Pfizer has paid out over $600 million in settlements due to breast cancer caused by the menopause drug PremPro - so far.

Except that Hormone Replacement Therapy is no longer recommended to be used except in unique, case by case circumstances, and the patients are educated that it causes an increased risk of breast cancer with estrogen-receptor tumors.

This is a far cry from their $2 billion peak in annual sales before the WHI study crashed their party, but the initial shock has worn off, and sales are steadily rising again as women are desperate for relief, and there is no FDA approved alternative (other than off-label prescriptions with little to no efficacy).

Amos Quito:HRT is still the ONLY FDA approved treatment for menopause symptoms, and PremPro sales in 2010 were just under 200 million, and Premarin was probably close to that figure.

Holy shiat. That's terrifying.

The recommendations were, a few years back when this all hit the fan because of the use of HRT to prevent heart disease (when it did exactly the opposite), that the only time Premarin be used for menopausal symptoms were when they were so extreme that they impacted the quality of life a patient had.

Amos Quito:but the initial shock has worn off, and sales are steadily rising again as women are desperate for relief, and there is no FDA approved alternative (other than off-label prescriptions with little to no efficacy).

I'd say the problem lies in the fact that menopausal issues are primarily hormone related problems, and that when you jack with those hormones, it does a whole lot of other things to the body.

pxlboy:Mike Chewbacca: pxlboy: MBooda: aaaand their legal expenses are skyrocketing six times faster than their revenues.

You wish

And even if that WAS true, if only there was a way for pharmaceutical companies to limit the suits they lose. Like I don't know, properly vetting your drugs and making sure that diabetes drug isn't going to kill your customers. Whacky thought, I know.

Right?

Well, sure. We all know that every settlement against Big Pharma is just.

MBooda:pxlboy: Mike Chewbacca: pxlboy: MBooda: aaaand their legal expenses are skyrocketing six times faster than their revenues.

You wish

And even if that WAS true, if only there was a way for pharmaceutical companies to limit the suits they lose. Like I don't know, properly vetting your drugs and making sure that diabetes drug isn't going to kill your customers. Whacky thought, I know.

Right?

Well, sure. We all know that every settlement against Big Pharma is just.

MBooda:pxlboy: Mike Chewbacca: pxlboy: MBooda: aaaand their legal expenses are skyrocketing six times faster than their revenues.

You wish

And even if that WAS true, if only there was a way for pharmaceutical companies to limit the suits they lose. Like I don't know, properly vetting your drugs and making sure that diabetes drug isn't going to kill your customers. Whacky thought, I know.

Right?

Well, sure. We all know that every settlement against Big Pharma is just.

/you wish

Seriously?

The Architects of the World Through Chemicality have proven repeatedly their incompetence when it comes to benefit over profit. 'Nuff said.

BronyMedic:Amos Quito: HRT is still the ONLY FDA approved treatment for menopause symptoms, and PremPro sales in 2010 were just under 200 million, and Premarin was probably close to that figure.

Holy shiat. That's terrifying.

The recommendations were, a few years back when this all hit the fan because of the use of HRT to prevent heart disease (when it did exactly the opposite), that the only time Premarin be used for menopausal symptoms were when they were so extreme that they impacted the quality of life a patient had.

Amos Quito: but the initial shock has worn off, and sales are steadily rising again as women are desperate for relief, and there is no FDA approved alternative (other than off-label prescriptions with little to no efficacy).

I'd say the problem lies in the fact that menopausal issues are primarily hormone related problems, and that when you jack with those hormones, it does a whole lot of other things to the body.

Damn straight. I did a lot of research on this topic when the Mrs. was having a bad go with menopause a while back. Read a very interesting study by a Dr. Freedman on how estrogen interacts with neurotransmitters, and this would seem to explain why women suffer from such a wide variety symptoms during menopause.

This interaction with neurotransmitters may be why SSRI and SNRI antidepressants seem to be effective in relieving hot flashes and night sweat symptoms - at least in some women - but the side effects can be nasty, especially with the SNRI's.

"Mrs. Quito" could not take hormones due to family history of cancer, and suffered horribly from hot flashes, mood swings, depression and many other symptoms. She tried the AD's, (Effexor) but they didn't sit well with her at all, and the withdrawals were like coming off of heroin..

She also tried soy, Remifemin (black cohosh), red clover, chinese herbs and just about every other "natural" remedy you can think of with little or no luck. This went on for years, driving both of us crazy, and it got to the point where she couldn't work, and took a leave of absence. I spent a fortune, and it was maddening.

Finally she bought a product on Amazon that really did work for her, and fast. The difference in her (our) quality of life has been amazing. Her hot flashes and night sweats are all but gone, her emotional and anxiety craziness has really mellowed out. She's happy, back to work, and life has pretty much gotten back to "normal", if there is such a thing.

BMFPitt:Amos Quito: The drug company only wants to make a profit and your doctor is only investing 15 minutes in your well-being.

It's YOUR health. Why should you trust anyone?

Because my doctor went to medical school, practices medicine professionally, and knows what the fark he's talking about.

Finally, pay attention to your body. Each drug works differently for each individual. If it's not working well for you, contact your doctor. There are probably a dozen alternatives.

So were you under the impression that anyone, anywhere, ever, was advocating that once an initial diagnosis has been made and a prescription has been given that there should be no follow-up?

Not at all. It's just that many people seem to place an undue amount of faith in their doctors and the candy they prescribe. Doctors are always pressed for time, and most people don't ask enough questions or bother to research their meds, and are SHOCKED when they start having unexpected adverse effects.

Being over 30 *IS* a degenerative mental illness. You just THINK you're smarter. Fine. Go back to university. You wouldn't last a week.

I went back to university at the age of 50 for a graduate degree (MBA). I graduated with a 4.0 GPA. The program lasted much longer than a week. Interestingly, my professors often told me that younger students couldn't write a coherent essay.

laid back w/bud light:Try losing your job and insurance when you're on Stelara to clear your psoriasis. I was totally clear of the horrible skin disease on that drug. Months later I'm covered in plaque. Basically your skin grows too fast and dies off leaving pieces of dead skin the size of corn flakes that itch to no end. I called the pharma company to see If I could purchase it and have my dermatologist give me the shot (required 4 times a year). The price for one injection is $6,900 or close to $28,000 dollars per year. Wearing shorts is a luxury to me.

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You're just not boot strappy enough. If you were a quality person, instead of a whiny welfare whore, you'd go out and start a business, or go back back to school and study the hot new thing, or get three more minimum wage jobs. I'm tired of you "gimme, gimme" types...............Add your own Ayn Rand, Austrian School, Mitt Romney GOP bullshiat here _______________.

Being over 30 *IS* a degenerative mental illness. You just THINK you're smarter. Fine. Go back to university. You wouldn't last a week.

I went back to university at the age of 50 for a graduate degree (MBA). I graduated with a 4.0 GPA. The program lasted much longer than a week. Interestingly, my professors often told me that younger students couldn't write a coherent essay.

In a few weeks, at the age of 32, I'm going back to college for IT. I'll have to check back in on whether it's more or less difficult than the last go-round.

Amos Quito:BronyMedic: Amos Quito: HRT is still the ONLY FDA approved treatment for menopause symptoms, and PremPro sales in 2010 were just under 200 million, and Premarin was probably close to that figure.

Holy shiat. That's terrifying.

The recommendations were, a few years back when this all hit the fan because of the use of HRT to prevent heart disease (when it did exactly the opposite), that the only time Premarin be used for menopausal symptoms were when they were so extreme that they impacted the quality of life a patient had.

Amos Quito: but the initial shock has worn off, and sales are steadily rising again as women are desperate for relief, and there is no FDA approved alternative (other than off-label prescriptions with little to no efficacy).

I'd say the problem lies in the fact that menopausal issues are primarily hormone related problems, and that when you jack with those hormones, it does a whole lot of other things to the body.

Damn straight. I did a lot of research on this topic when the Mrs. was having a bad go with menopause a while back. Read a very interesting study by a Dr. Freedman on how estrogen interacts with neurotransmitters, and this would seem to explain why women suffer from such a wide variety symptoms during menopause.

This interaction with neurotransmitters may be why SSRI and SNRI antidepressants seem to be effective in relieving hot flashes and night sweat symptoms - at least in some women - but the side effects can be nasty, especially with the SNRI's.

"Mrs. Quito" could not take hormones due to family history of cancer, and suffered horribly from hot flashes, mood swings, depression and many other symptoms. She tried the AD's, (Effexor) but they didn't sit well with her at all, and the withdrawals were like coming off of heroin..

She also tried soy, Remifemin (black cohosh), red clover, chinese herbs and just about every other "natural" remedy you can think of with little or no luck. This went on for years, driving both of us crazy ...

Premarin and then Effexor really messed my mother up. One of those 'Cure worse than the disease' scenarios. That Wisdom stuff on Amazon looks promising, but trying to get her to take anything even vaguely holistic looking would be futile -_-

MacWizard:You SHOULD be smarter at 40 than 20. Granted, your IQ won't be any higher, but if you should have learned something useful from the additional 20 years of life experiences.

You're just coasting at that point. It's demented to think you can learn and think as fast as in your 20s. And as for your physical side, come on. Stop bullshiatting yourself. You're a fat, slow, farty, hairy and dumb version of you at 20. Easily tired, prone to injury, fearful and unable to learn new things.

But the species will totally conquer the infinite reaches of space with a modified ape with the lifespan of a gnat.

Quantum Apostrophe:MacWizard: You SHOULD be smarter at 40 than 20. Granted, your IQ won't be any higher, but if you should have learned something useful from the additional 20 years of life experiences.

You're just coasting at that point. It's demented to think you can learn and think as fast as in your 20s. And as for your physical side, come on. Stop bullshiatting yourself. You're a fat, slow, farty, hairy and dumb version of you at 20. Easily tired, prone to injury, fearful and unable to learn new things.

But the species will totally conquer the infinite reaches of space with a modified ape with the lifespan of a gnat.

Most ignored me. Many told me I was full of shiat. Glad to notice that those smarter than me are saying similar things to what I said.

BTW. I don't suppose anyone recalls the little report years ago, about the Great, Kind and Caring Pharmaceutical Industries millions of (tax write-off) drugs to charities and needy nations?

Seems most of those drugs were expired, due to be destroyed but some corporate genius figured out how to make more money off them without the expense of disposal.

You can't even give your unused, hideously expensive drugs away to the needy. It's against the law. Big Pharma backed that bill heavily. You're not supposed to toss them either -- you can pollute the water and soil. However, many pharmacies will take your unneeded drugs and ship them away for proper disposal -- usually a drug company -- for a fee.

This all started about the time lawyers discovered they could become billionaires by suing drug companies for even the tiniest medication reaction.

Oh. All of those discount drug cards you see all over the place? They're worthless if you have Medicare Pt. D. and almost everyone on Medicare has to have Pt.-D.

Within 10 years, you will be able to walk into a Walgreen's with a diagnosis from your doctor, stick your finger in a device for a blood sample, wait 30 minutes (or less), and walk out with a designer drug tailored to your body. This will include certain types of cancers, which will be eliminated by that drug. Also no side effects beyond possibly a mild fever.

Quantum Apostrophe:MacWizard: You SHOULD be smarter at 40 than 20. Granted, your IQ won't be any higher, but if you should have learned something useful from the additional 20 years of life experiences.

You're just coasting at that point. It's demented to think you can learn and think as fast as in your 20s. And as for your physical side, come on. Stop bullshiatting yourself. You're a fat, slow, farty, hairy and dumb version of you at 20. Easily tired, prone to injury, fearful and unable to learn new things.

But the species will totally conquer the infinite reaches of space with a modified ape with the lifespan of a gnat.

I didn't say you can learn and think as fast as in your 20s when you get to 40, nor did I suggest that you would be a better physical specimen. Just that you should be smarter with an extra 20 years of experience.

And one of the things that most of us learn is that we did a lot of stupid shiat when we were 20.

wraithmare:Within 10 years, you will be able to walk into a Walgreen's with a diagnosis from your doctor, stick your finger in a device for a blood sample, wait 30 minutes (or less), and walk out with a designer drug tailored to your body. This will include certain types of cancers, which will be eliminated by that drug. Also no side effects beyond possibly a mild fever.

BronyMedic:wraithmare: Within 10 years, you will be able to walk into a Walgreen's with a diagnosis from your doctor, stick your finger in a device for a blood sample, wait 30 minutes (or less), and walk out with a designer drug tailored to your body. This will include certain types of cancers, which will be eliminated by that drug. Also no side effects beyond possibly a mild fever.

Genetic Engineering and Nanotechnology are wonderful, aren't they?

And you'll walk out to your flying car into a cheery world of helpful robots and homes that hover.

BronyMedic:I'm actually getting a kick out of this right now, because I'm having to argue with my insurance company over the drugs I've been prescribed.

Vyvance (Lisdextroamfetamine) is a wonderful drug. It's got a lot of efficacy studies out there, it's got a favorable side effect profile, and a low abuse and addiction potential. 250 dollars a month. Insurance company is not wanting to pay for it.

BUT.

THey're happy paying for Desoxyn. Desoxyn is METHAMPHETAMINE. High abuse and addiction potential, high cardiovascular side effect potential.

FML.

The faster they can turn you into a tweaker and either get your heart to explode or doing the mind-bogglingly stupid shiat tweakers do, the faster they can get your money-sink ass off their rolls. Insurance perfected every bit of evil and gouging that pharma is accused of, centuries before.

I used to sympathize with the big pharmaceutical manufacturers, because it costs over 900 mil to get a drug on the market, and only 1 in 1000 chemicals developed actually make it, but then I found out they spend 3 times as much on marketing as they do on R & D. Who do they really have to market to? If its really worth a damn, docs and pharmacists are going to find out about it.

Try this big pharma: Don't make crap you know is a marketing gimmick. I won't name specific drugs in public but you know the ones. Where you use one isomer instead of another but there's no clinical difference in efficacy, or make a controlled release product of a drug with a 12 hour half-life. I could go on, but you know what I'm talking about, because you have to pay the guys who destroy that crap when it goes out of date.