After some time away from sajha it amazes me to see so much discussion about dating, attracting, searching... where have all the married people gone? Where is our discussion corner? How about a new thread to discuss issues that come up after marriage... issues of balancing career and family, of balancing two careers, ...and kids (if any)... issues of managing to live in multiple and sometimes contradictory cultures, of dealing with parents in law and extended family expectations... issues of commuter-marriages and long separations... and issues of staying together through difficult times...

So... married folks of sajha.com... speak up... let's talk about our issues too... find companionship as we navigate worlds that our parents likely never experienced (and thus can't advise about)... and in the process, show to the single searching folks that finding the right person is not the destination, but rather the beginning of a looong road...

Arnico.

NK

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 02:00 PM

Arnico!!! The "saving" of Sajha dot come is completed!! You are back. Wilkommen!!!

As Logical Sense pointed out it was getting exceedingly difficult to save this without you:)

Yes, let's talk about these issues. I am all for it. And many more concerning us. So what should be our first topic??

anepalikt

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 02:20 PM

Arnico: You are so absolutely right! We should talk about those things. Would be lot more interesting than lot of what we have up on the board right now. But yet at the same time, I ask myself, would it be kina like throwing pearls before the swine? I am still struggling with the total lack of accountability and respect from some posters. Maybe I am simply being paranoid. :) Regardless.... thanks for reminding us that there are visitors on this borad from differented stages in life and it would be great to explore that diversity.

czar

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 02:40 PM

Nepalikt, When there's swine about, have a barbeque!

Arniko,

We have our own cultural demons to contend with when dealing with the life issues you mentioned.

I would welcome the discourse as a worthy exercise. May provide valuable insights to singles, those aspiring to relationships or for those already in them.

Un Padha Wife

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 02:50 PM

My wife does not know English Kun Charako Naam Ho. so it does not make sense. If you like to post some thing that belongs to Bed Scene, no one can stop you posting your experience.

anepalikt

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 03:18 PM

Czar:

Some animalls are not digestible! Mostly they are simply tasteless... see above. :)

2. Education. My cousin went Nepal and got married with a girl who got more educated than himself. They fight all the time. I don't know they fight just because she is more educated. Tara for the safe side, if you are a guy and got a bachelor degree then dont wed one who got master. Huna ta murkha unpaad husband ka bidusi budi khusi sunga baseko khelo navayeko ta haina...just my opinion.

This is among the more mature threads at the site. And people like NK might have much to contribute to it. On the other hand, anepalikt's warning that there might be a flock of those who will come and litter. But still the effort is worth it. Thanks for starting it.

Jay:

(1) Money might matter. But love/marriage is not the prerogative of this or that income bracket, would you say?

(2) ( " Sojo khaire ko chothale Sirimati"). Saying so as part of the Gaijatra thread is one thing, but tagging that phrase to NK -- is that insensitive or what? I think it is. I think we ought to publicly respect NK's cross-cultural marriage, in some ways a tougher nut to crack.

(3) The guy has a Bachelor's degree. The woman has a Masters degree. That is an okay scenario. A strong man ought to be able to handle that higher educational attainment of his wife.

(4) The career woman also doing all the work at home --- that is one sexist arrangement. Men ought to share child care and household work. What do you think?

I look forward to further comments. And I would like to present some of my earlier pieces on the topic:

Am I In Wonderland? (Haikus) http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-3470-38DCBC5E-39BC8186-prod5

The Unique Challenges Of Multi-Cultural Relationships And Marriages http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-4C-1096D540-3991E8AA-prod1

anepalikt

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 04:29 PM

Paramendra: Ever wonder about doing a column here on Sajha? Love you ideas generally, but listing all the links to your pages gets a little overwhelming at times. But I did read your commentary on eopinion about cross cultural relationships. And noted your comment to whoevers comment about NK's marraige. One thing is for sure, most cultures have respect for cross-cultural relationships. Marrying outside your particular culture is often seems as a betrayal or a failure. I was interested to ready your views about interpersoanl relationship not crowding out the collective identities of the partner. That I thing is of utmost import when talking about such mixed relationships, but what of the lack of support from the family or community that people who marry outside their community find themselves suffering from? What does that do to the relationship? Anyhow....

Jay

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 04:33 PM

Paramendra,

Thata garda ta latta po parecha!!! Abui dur po lagyo eh!!

NO way I meant to be insensitive to cross cultural marriage. I didn't know NK was married to non-nepali before I see that Gaijatra link. Like a footnote, I intended to use it. I apologize anyway if it sounded insensitive.

About (3),(4), I agree with you. But what about the expectation of female if her husband is less educated than her? It's not how well he handles the higher educational attainment of his wife but what she thinks of him?

Your latest UKHAN can not excuse you for the line you mentioned in earlier posting. What Paramendra did by pointing out your mistake is perfectly a matured one and he clearly told you that it could have been appeared in Gaijatra section --thread--. Jay, your statement, whether fits in Sajhaians or not, thats different, but, your statements looks more discouraging and humiliating. I really appreciated you when you first appologied, before bursted with latest posting. Everyone would have thought that you are a guy who is generous and admits when made mistakes, but, your last posting clearly tells the degree of your hypcritness. Last posting has degraded your image at least on those who read this thread very carefully.

--- "Beautiful Woman is Vague Phrase"---HG --> cited by Nepe @ Gaijatra Thread. For those who are married and not married "singles", try to understand the depth of this statement. NK, aNepaliKT, Suna are all beautiful women here @ Sajha.com. Their face, body structure, age and physical presence have no relevancy @ Sajha.com.

I don't remember when where I posted this line under what tread. But, I thank a lot to Nepe for reminding me.

If someone misunderstood you, make genuine and ample effort to make you understand. I learned one should not apologize for the mistake one didnt' commit. Padeko thieye mafi magda sano huenna....but I learned today, if one apologizes anyway it is interpretted as admittance of crime which I didn't commit.

Anyway, I will be careful making statements in future and assure you Hahooguru, that they won't be humilating and discouraging!! I am trying harder! :-)

HahooGuru

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 08:28 PM

Dear Jay,

Its true that if you have not committed mistake, (if you are sure and honest) then, apology is sometime disasterous. I am not sure whether you know about the words to be used in road accident or other places when you are not sure whether the accident happened because of you. In Japan, it is said that ask your opponent involved in the accident

"are you alright?", don't apologize before you get sure that its because of your mistake. Japanese use "dai jobu desu ka". They never use "Gomen na sai", until they get confirmation. Because "I am sorry" "sumimasen" "gomen na sai", and admittance of mistake from your side, and if you spell the word, then, it can be used in court to prove that you had apologized first and changed the admittance later. You might know a Nepali, Govinda Mainali in Japanese jail who is in jail for not committed crime. His biggest mistake was to tell Japanese Police when the caught him "la maile nai hore, kehi proof chha?". Being human being, we are not 100% perfect, and such ADMITTANCE of not committed mistakes will ask your opponent to find loop holes and expand it and .... thus, police has to find someone, and they found ADMITTANT person and its all becuase of small mistake "admitting the not-committed crime". Well, we Nepalis have not learned in school and at home that "Take responsibility on what you speak". In Japan, if you speak "Hey, I will offer you lunch if I am late by 5 miniutes". If you tell later that "its joke", then, the opponent can go to court and ask you to take him to restaurant and offer a lunch. Please, try to understand the magnitude of joke, its just a lunch, no one will take you to court (probably) but, you have to responsibility on each word. Thats why a Japanese will hardly confidently answer your questions like

XYZ Nepali: "Pakhuri ko bot muni ghar" bhanya kata tira paryo? A Japanized Nepali: Malai thaha chhaina. A moderately Japanized Man: Exactly ta thaha chhaina, tara, uuuuu tyata tira hoki jasto lagcha. Tara ma sure chhaina. ... If a Japanized Man gives you this much of information, he is probably 90% or more correct. He does not tell you 100% percent cofidently, because he knows if there is something wrong, then, he has to take responsbility, for every word he spoke. Thus, adding "Exactly ta thaha chhaina" at the beginning, he is relieving his responsibility on what he adds after this.

In Japan, the Nepali kids who go to Japanese KG and schools, when they are at home, they create a lot problem to their Nepali Parents, because they ask to take responsiblity on each word their parents speak. "kina Bhaneko ta". When parents ask their kids something, the kid does not confidently, will reply to them, "I don't know". Even if you ask the kid to guess, if the kid does not know it confidently, s/he will keep on replying "I don't know", because in the school, the kids are taught to take responsibility on every word they speak.

Thats why we Nepalis (including me) very easily speak and very easily admit our mistakes. It happens in all tiers, from political leaders like deoba, Girija, MAkune, BRB to a our parents at home. We make comments so easily that we apologize when someone who is powerful looking powerful says "hey you are wrong", we will immediately admit it as mistake and apologize very fast. I know my son always argues with me "maile kina maaf magne", he never apologies until he realizes that he really committed mistake that hurt others. He is so tough, but, me as you know me like at Sajha.com speak very easily and admit mistakes very easily. Well, its not our personal mistake, I think our education system never asked us to understand the Nepali Proverb "5dharni ko tauko hallau, tara 2 pau ko jibro naphadkara".

Guru le lecture diyo nabhan, I take full responsibility on what I speak. HG

arnico

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 08:49 PM

wow... I post a sleepy message before going to bed, and wake up to find 20 replies. Sajha is fun.... especially when I am in a different time zone from the majority of posters. Glad to be back. Yes, I have lots of thoughts to write about... but first need to have breakfast with my wife, discuss any shopping I may need to do today, and make sure she gets to the faculty meeting on time... you see, I am just a poor student who stays behind washing dishes while my wife goes to work as a university lecturer ... :-)

NK

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 08:59 PM

And Arnico get this. As soon as my husband gets in the car from his week-long trip, he asks me what he should make for dinner! Is there anything I would like to have. No wonder they are calling him "sojho khairey."

NK

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 10:11 PM

On a serious note...

First of all, Sitara thanks. May you always shine like the sitaras in a new-bride's ghumti. :)

Jay,

I know two women - one is barely 25 and another in her early 30's. They both were nearly burnt alive by their husbands. They are from kathmandu. They have burnt scar all over their bodies. One ran back to her maiti and later divorced and another came here and got divorced. [they both are here now]What happens to those who don't have a maiti to run to or money to fly to the US? *This* is still a reality and quite rampant in Nepal and yes that too in Kathmandu.

Now let's come back to the question you raised concerning my marriage to a westerner. Believe it or not I did not set out to marry a westerner. It just happend. But somehow I am glad it happend. I am always shocked, yes shocked when I hear " I want to marry an American." It is like saying (to me) I want to marry a man from certain Jaat. Well, what if you fall in love with someone who is not from that jaat? Leave him? Anyway I am sure there are many many Nepali men who respect and cherish their partners and see them as equal. Well they'd better be that way. You must have read the thread the more educated women are, less likey they are going to put up with atrocities: mental or physical torture.

You want a secret to happy marriage? I don't have any wisdom to impart. Marriage is a series of little compromises. You "negotiate" , you give a little and expect a little. Give and take. It is the little thing that breaks the marriage,at least in the west.

I used to volunteer recently-arrived immigrants from former USSR. I found out large number of couples divorce within two years or so after coming to the US. It seems like that country is quite a patriarcha society. Once they find out they don't have to cook, clean, and go to work and find socks for their husbands if they don't want to, they did not hesitate to say 'Hasta la vista' babe!

arnico

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 10:30 PM

I hope Jay got some replies to his initial points 2 and 3, whether he meant them genuinely or not (and even if he did not, I know lots of people who think that way)... meanwhile... yes my wife is at her meeting, and no there is no shopping today, but I do need to get some of my work done, so need to keep this short.

anepalikt: I know that every word uttered on sajha can get turned around, bent, reshaped, and thrown back 100 times. I still remember the last time you took a break from sajha, and am hoping no one has to endure that again... and of course, during every line one writes one has to be careful about how much personal information one gives out to the vultures... everything posted online will likely be traceable within seconds via google or its successors for the rest of our lives. So, if you are ever considering a political career, realize that the sajha archives is where hungry journalists will go hunting for food...

That said, I think there are enough issues that are commonly shared that we can discuss without needing to worry more about sharing personal matters more than we would in any other thread.

A few more quick replies: un padha wife: marriage issues are not confined to the bedroom! Each couple faces a large number of issues navigating life together and interacting with larger society... I don't think I need to discribe...

czar and others: about cultural demons etc.: I have just sadly watched way too many marriages fall apart in recent years where, yes, cultural issues played a big role. Marriages between Nepalis and foreigners, as well as between Nepalis in Kathmandu and the US, as well as between other Asian and Asian/western couples where contradictory instructions from a variety of cultures create unbridgeable tensions, both within individuals between spouses.... where for example tradition and, what shall we call it, western culture, call for completely different behavior in the same situation... and individuals and couples have to negotiate difficult choices.

Jay, you mentioned something about educated couples fighting all the time. I think one of the misconceptions in Nepali (as well as other Asian societies) is to see fighting among spouses as necessarily bad. Yes, if there is physical or verbal abuse I agree it is bad. But if it is just a loud argument it may be uncomfortable for people hearing them... but it may actually make the bond between the couple stronger (by helping them bring out to the open and address difficult issues) than the bond among two people who never fight, and one person swallows everything and lives in mysery waiting for the chance (which may or may not come) to exit the marriage...

Hahooguru: Have you ever read the book of short stories called " The Broken Bridge: Fiction from Expatriates in Literary Japan" edited by Suzanne Kamata? ... a lot of short stories about foreigners and mixed Japanese-foreigner families in Japan.

Paramendra... agree with the points you wrote, but too lazy to follow the links...

Jay: don't get discouraged... welcome to sajha! btw. do I know you?

Sitara: good points... but I think a successful relationship/marriage depends not just upon what it starts with, but also on what the couple builds up together... the shared memory of experiences, the habits that individuals and couples develop... and above all the effort they make to occasionally step back and look at what works and what does not... and be openminded about acknowledging mistakes and apologizing where needed.

Hahooguru: you may be interested in a book

need to go now...

Arnico.

SITARA

Posted
on 25-Aug-02 10:48 PM

Arnico....You have defined my definition of ''friendship"....... Thank you! I don't know of any other kind in and/or out of marriage!

jayahos

Posted
on 26-Aug-02 06:53 AM

JHATKAs (Jolts) of Marriage

"Padhai nasaki BE nagares hai, NAGARES" everyone would suggest me. Obstinate me, took it otherwise and decided to get married. First JHATKA came when my BOSS, happily married for 20 yrs, took no time to squeeze my leave by two-third. Working round the clock for one week, I was rewarded with what I was dreaming for in later half of my past. Next JHATKA came as tears from my beloved, when I informed that I have to return back to my duty. The tears, swiftly running like a river from high hills to form a fall, were powerful enough to dislodge me from my dream.

Keeping balance inter alia home, office, and social/professional activities…I was having a tough time. To give a break and refresh myself, I decided to go for a trekking around SYAPHRU BENSI. And lo..another JHATKA. I had to content with CHANGU NARAYAN ko UKALO. After six months of my 'happy' marriage life, my nom de guerre was 'JOI TINGRE'! Enough.. After six months, I was awarded one month on my own. First thing I did was, collected my old buddies, went to NAGARKOT, gulped some drink and gave a lecture to all 'You see…What the hell marriage is…never ever get married…You will get JHATKAs'.

But the very next day…I began to feel her absence. I was watching cricket for hours hoping her to drop in and switch the channel to some light family dramas. After few days, I realized that I love shopping too. I was longing for everything…Temples, Bhajans..Poems, Stories..yeh every things - even those never-moving-ahead kinda soap operas. That one month came heavy on me and on those days of never-occurred-before loneliness, what I realized was enough to give my life a U-turn.

JHATKAs are not only when vehicle comes to a halt….They are also there when it gets momentum. The big JHATKA of marriage in human life - second only to JHATKA of birth - gives life a momentum that keeps us alive as grown up. Or at the least, I think so.

Jayahos!

arnico

Posted
on 26-Aug-02 01:45 PM

Sitara... you are right... what I wrote applies to friendship outside of marriage as well. Jayahos, thanks a lot for your sincere contribution. It's amazing what one realizes as soon as there is a little separation...

paramendra

Posted
on 26-Aug-02 06:53 PM

NK, you need to get my name right.

NK

Posted
on 26-Aug-02 09:14 PM

Paramendra, if you look closely at that sentence, there was a lot of things I did not get right, yes, including your name. Should I apologize to that sentence too or to the whole English language?

I am glad I made you smile. My work is complete for the day. shubha ratri. How do you say that in Maithili btw?

paramendra

Posted
on 26-Aug-02 09:41 PM

Well, you say Shubha Ratri. Sanskrit being the mother of all languages that side of the whatever longitudinal line there is.

:-)

Lalupate*Joban

Posted
on 27-Aug-02 09:48 AM

With due respect to NK, methinks Paramendra's rejoinder (if I may call it that) was justified. :)

When "Paramendra" is spelt as "Paramendar" by a non-Madhesi Nepali and that "Paramendra" happens to be a Madhesi/Indian, it does tend to smack of racial innuendo/insinuation. Objectively speaking, that is. :)

Now now, before any of the Sajha-dwellers (from the NK fan club, or the anti-Madhesi/Indian caucus) aims a "pindh taatnu aghi bind taatyo" pashupatashtra at me, let me make it clear that I am not implicating NK - arguably the most celebrated poet of this particular cyberland. [Well, Nepe, did I get my ranking right? :)] One doesn't exactly have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that it was a typo, right? :)

NK

Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:57 AM

Lalupate Joban, You got that right buddy! How finicky are you about that teenie tiny star in between your name? If you are then antoher aploogy is on its way.

Lalupate*Joban

Posted
on 27-Aug-02 11:31 AM

Well buddy, apologies from others are pretty good for my ego, or so I am told. :) Wouldn't mind receiving one from you, if you are really keen on apologising. :)

NK

Posted
on 27-Aug-02 11:36 AM

mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, mea grande culpa.

I hope that satisfies your thirst for apologies. :]

NK

Posted
on 27-Aug-02 11:58 AM

Also me thinks marriage is a work in progress. You gotta work at it, every day. To wed is not the end in itself. It is just the beginning. YOu have to treat this union as sacred. You cannot just make a bundle and throw it in a corner. If you take marriage for granted then that is the beginning of doom. Find some hobbies that both enjoy. And be open to try out new things. Example: Before, I used to see bikes as a means of transportation not a recreational thing. And Sailing as something I would watch not do. Now, both have changed. I still cannot swim but I trust my husband to rescue me before I drown. And., discovered I really like biking. Have trust in the partner. Be open. And work on the marriage as if you were married just yesterday. Things will be just fine. :) And oh, don't forget to have a can or two of crushed tomatoes and some uncooked pasta in the pantry. If you know or are willing to learn how to make soufle' then your marriage will celebrate 50 th anniversary in no time. :)

Lalupate*Joban

Posted
on 27-Aug-02 12:13 PM

"Find some hobbies that both enjoy. And be open to try out new things."

NK: Sailing?????ahhaha let me not even go there PULEZZZZZZ suppository medicines to overcome sea sickness is not exactly my definition of fun and crushed tomatoes for pasta sauce hmmm that brings back the memories of "like water for chocolate" :).

The word marriage nowadays means to make a union legal, to bear offspring and to live happily ever after.....or DOES IT?

Sorry if I sound pessimistic to all those rosy-eyed damsels and gents out there - marriage is just a word, its the feelings that count. Be sharing hobbies or ideas, if you have no feelings of love between each other then even the most strongest of marriages will falter.

My tuppence

NK

Posted
on 27-Aug-02 02:32 PM

Suna, mmmm like water for chocolate. Maybe I should write something along that line for marred folks. It is ok if you dun want to get married. You can still read. :)

Sensous, round juicy red tomatoes glistening with a bit of sweat from the coolness of a fridge. you take them out gently balanching in your both hands and place them in a bowl. Run the water and take one at a time and washt it gently -carefully. Do not squish or smoosh, not yet! Boil water in a deep pan. Make a little incision on the bottom of each of those riped tomatoes with a sharp pairing knife. Put the tomatotes in boiling water take them out in 2-3 minutes. Plunk them in ice cube to prevent from being cooked too much.

Now with a grace to match Cleopetra's peel skin of those tomatoes with your beautifully manicured hands.

Music in the background: 'I want to come in over' by M. Ethridge not played too loudly.

NK, Are you sure you didn't get that recipe from Nigella Bites? :) She does some serious sensous cooking! Yes, cooking can be that, no wonder my dad loved to see my ama in the kitchen all the time ;).

More on track: Inter-racial marriages :) phew quite a heavy subject for me personally. Hats off to those who can make it work, it does require extra patience and care. Here are a few thoughts: 1. Make an effort to learn your spouse's language 2. Make an effort to appreciate and respect your spouse's culture 3. Bite your tongue everytime you think your comment may not fly well 4. Remember "nepali" type of loving is more invovled and intense :) (whoever wants an explanation to this please call me :) I'd be most happy to oblige). 5. Remember everytime a nepali relative comes over, the "stay" may last days or even weeks or even months. There is nothing wrong with that, our concept of hospitality is the host not being comfortable while the guests are - nothing wrong there. :). 6. Remember that your Nepali spouse maybe submissive but the mind is at work and beware of the dog that does not bark :).

phew..lemme get back to work and see if I can come up with any worldly advice that I could have used.....(penny for your thoughts).

joie de vivre

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 08:14 AM

Soufflé? Darnit!! You mean if I’d made soufflé every once in a while I’d still be happily married??

Note to self: next time you get married (IF you’ve not been scarred for life) make soufflé!!

suna

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 08:43 AM

Lauuuuuuu didn't you know?? Its the souffles (excuse the absence of my accents :))!!

NK

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 09:01 AM

*Men* darling *men*! *they* need to learn to make soufle! Not women. Funny how mind works. It is hard to shake off what we have been associating word with. Cooking = women. No, I meant men need to learn make soufle and Le gratin des Gratins, Confit de Chattaignes, Noix, Fenouil, et oignon and, and and to make the marriage works! I don't know how to put those lil' hats on french words so take it what I have served!

suna

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 09:05 AM

jdv: my souffle is different from your souffle haha!

and NK:I think you're covered in the cooking department so am I, now lets get on with some souffles :).

lol!

joie de vivre

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 09:06 AM

Phew! that's a relief! I'm glad you cleared that up NK. Here I was blaming myself for the demise of my marriage when all along it was his fault! Damn him! He should've learned to cook!!!

cardinal

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:27 AM

No married guys wanna show up here eh? Is it because they don't want to reveal their married status, or because their wife is more that enough to listen to and don't want to chat with other married women any more?

fRank

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:31 AM

I know how to cook daal, bhat, tarkari, esp gunruk ra alu. I can even make golveda ko achar and i can make it real spicy. I don't care if you women like it or not. My galfren likes it. and we are getting married soon.

arnico

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 11:05 AM

...hey there is one married guy here, and he enjoys cooking (as long as his wife is not standing behind giving comments)... actually at the moment standing in a phone booth at an airport right now, but still addicted enough to cyberspace to be logged on, making a note to save the thread and look back at the recipes at a later time... keep them coming. My cooking repertoire is quite limited.

And, NK, GOOD LUCK driving me crazy... :-)

NK

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 11:14 AM

Arnico, O Serious One, The cooking instructions of course with the recipe, will be coming. It seems you enjoy being driven crazy. Your wife is one darn lucky woman! :)

fRank, good for you bhai! That is what is needed to keep your woman happy. As long as you don't quit the day you got married. Now, that is important - not to quit cooking. Believe me she will appreciate more that you can imagine. *This* is the secret ofa happy married life. :) WEll there are other pointers too , but good things to those who wait.

joie de vivre

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 11:22 AM

fRank, don't forget the soufflé!!!

NK

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 12:00 PM

haha! Joie! You are a devil!

Parakhi

Posted
on 28-Aug-02 12:09 PM

What is this souffle? Please help me to understand what souffle means before my wife does. I am still happy without it. ha ha