(1) There's a big group of unmarried men over 40 that are perfectly happy. (2) There's a big group of unmarried women over 40 that are perfectly happy. (3) There's a big group of men who go on and on about how all over-40 single women are unhappy. (4) There's a big group of women who go on and on about how all over-40 single men are unhappy.

I've met people in all four groups. Groups 3 and 4 are a lot less happy.

(1) There's a big group of married men over 40 that are perfectly happy. (2) There's a big group of married women over 40 that are perfectly happy. (3) There's a big group of women over 40 who go on and on about how they don't need no man.

I know this girl, she added me on facebook. she is 20+ not ugly. got like 6 cats, feminist, liberal, and atheist (The Hispter triad). She spends all day posting pics about feminism and how she doesnt need a man and trying to correct me whenever i write something sexist. Yet, when she chatted with me, one of the first things she said was "I like my man to be very macho." No shit i said.

From what I've read of yours, Doom, you could only tolerate the whining and bleating of the men I speak of for so long even in "men only" spots. Funny, the men I speak of find women's blogs to do their moaning (?).

This public shaming effort by some manosphere commenters towards redlegben and sarahsdaughter is pitiful. Not everyone has to agree that MGTOW is a good thing or that every bitter complaint should be given a sympathetic pat on the back. Differences of opinion do not an enemy make, let alone a feminist.

"...Differences of opinion do not an enemy make, let alone a feminist. " Really?

Someone should tell that to our "friends" in the feminist community. They tend to bash men whenever they get the chance. When they are having a slow week, they create a chance using some ridiculous study (i.e. Hooking Up Smart's dubious studies). These studies, ironically enough, seem to support whatever is currently en-vogue with the feminist agenda. Ironic isn't it?

How 'bout this? You Gynocrats stick to you blogs, like HUS, and we will stick to ours. Deal?

Shame away dear MGTOWs. In a generation you will be gone. And what will remain?

Mothers are not only important, they are absolutely vital due to their position as front-line shock troops in the ongoing, centuries-long struggle for the survival of Western civilization. Despite the fact that their maternal instinct has been harassed, criticized, mocked, belittled and subjected to a 40-year effort to indoctrinate it out of existence, our mothers stubbornly continue doing the only thing we actually need women to do in order for our civilization to survive, bearing and raising children.

While we can argue about whether such luxuries are beneficial or detrimental to society, there is no arguing the empirical evidence which proves that civilization has survived without them before and could easily do so again.

But without mothers, there is no civilization. Without mothers, there is no future for the civilized.

Europe is in the process of discovering what a world without mothers is like. It is an ugly picture, a brutal picture. It is a probable future that promises to be much worse than the most exaggerated images of past patriarchal oppression ever painted by Betty Friedan or Gloria Steinhem. Without mothers, there is only barbarism and the choice between the brothel and the burqa.

Motherhood is a sacrifice. It may mean putting off a college education and a career, or even giving them up entirely. It may mean sacrificing a flawless figure. It may mean sacrificing dreams. It definitely means putting two, three, four or more lives ahead of your own. But motherhood is also an expression of hope. Motherhood is a vote of confidence in the future of mankind. Motherhood is the brave voice of a woman saying, “I will not live life for today. I will create life for many tomorrows.”

Cards, gifts and flowers are no adequate expressions of gratitude for this living statement of faith.

In the ongoing war against Christian civilization, it is the mothers who matter most. The sterile secularists don’t fear Christian intellectuals or Christian pastors, they regard the former as petty annoyances and there’s little need to worry about one weekly hour of Christian teaching on Sundays overcoming 40 hours of secular reprogramming from Monday to Friday. But they fear our mothers who can create children faster than they can manage to indoctrinate them. And they are downright terrified of our homeschooling mothers who rob them of their primary means of creating a new generation of secular barbarians.

Every time a woman says “I do,” every time a wife turns to her husband and says “let’s have another baby,” every time a mother hugs her child and says “how would you like me to be your teacher?” she is striking a powerful blow in defense of her faith, her family, her church and God. We should celebrate these bold decisions – these audacious acts – as victories, not just for the family and the faith, but for civilization and mankind.

It is not enough to thank our mothers. We owe them a debt that cannot be repaid. But we can, and we must, love them, honor them, support them and sustain them as they faithfully continue to wage their mother’s war.

Markku, in what Christian manner do you satisfy your sexual urges? Or, are you Paul? Going out into the world spreading God's Word.

Is this the sacred cow of MGTOWs? The self satisfaction shall not be named. The fornication shall not be named. The porn shall not be named. It is WRONG to speak of these things! It shames men and that is not permissible.

@SarahsDaughter --I am rather surprised at you. One of the differences between the 40+ spinsters and the 40+ MGTOW crowd, is that the 40+ MGTOW crowd *could* attract a younger mate, but doesn't find them compatible for an LTR due to character flaws (e.g. carousel riding, attitude, risk of divorce rape) -- whereas the 40+ spinsters CANNOT find men willing to pursue them for marriage.

Oh, and the MGTOW 40+ remain able to reproduce; and yet, don't suffer from baby rabies.

And lastly, many of the 40+ MGTOW *were* married and suffered divorce rape, but many of the 40+ spinsters rode the carousel when they *could* still have landed a mate.

"How 'bout this? You Gynocrats stick to you blogs, like HUS, and we will stick to ours. Deal?"

You're an idiot.

"She deserves the shaming."

Is that so? Very interesting how failing to stand with self-proclaimed MGTOWs constitutes a public shaming. They're not special, nor or they sainted warriors doing good. At best, they're a neutral group.

But seeing how admired they are, you would think they were a revolutionary force like the pious, celibate Christians of old. Nope, not today. I don't think giving up makes one brave, it merely makes one a quitter. And quitters deserve to lose.

Shame away dear MGTOWs. In a generation you will be gone. And what will remain?

You provide a very good example, and warning, that there is no true red pill woman. Your harping also increases the tendency of men unwilling to go out of their way for any but them and theirs. I will look after the deserving members of my family, but will not raise a finger to help an unrelated woman because I have seen too many erstwhile 'worthy' women turn out to have opinions like yours.

Hope you enjoy the world that your flippant callousness helps to create.

Markku, so truly spoken in hidden shame. I'm pretty sure there is something about the Truth setting you free.

Continuing on sinful ways is not a Christian path. Paul knew men can't control sexual urges easily. That's why he suggested marriage unless you were like him. But if you don't believe what he said it doesn't matter. I mean that sincerely. I don't know your morality.

From what I've read of yours, Doom, you could only tolerate the whining and bleating of the men I speak of for so long even in "men only" spots. Funny, the men I speak of find women's blogs to do their moaning (?).

And, I know you like your cats. ;)

Hehehehe Spotted, didn't even get the chance to run away. Punked by teh womanz. You do pay attention, don't you!

On my side, I did say men's spot, not a wormwood place, too. I know they get confused these days, what with all the metro's flashing their styling and whatnot. Manpurse my ass.

I figure it's none of my business if other men don't want to procreate,it's better than women having babies without the the resources or a father for the child.I will agree with Sarah's daughter's opinion that it seems a lot of older unmarried men in the manosphere blame most,if not all,their problems on women. This is small in comparison to the institutionalized and mainstream male blaming that has gone on relentlessly for many years,but is still something we men need to avoid.I consider myself a MGTOW in that the way I choose to go is to take responsibility for the sorry-ass choices I have made and to fight the hate movement known as feminism with everything I have.

And she is a Mother working hard to raise the next generation so they dont have to start from scratch like we did. We walk in courage and faith and wage war against evil. Others bitch and moan not realizing or not caring that riding the fence is still choosing the wrong side.SD is waging war. What are you doing for the God you claim to serve besides whining its too hard!

Jonw u can make feminism scream in agony. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar do everyday. They will leave behind an army. Demographics people. You are doing exactly what the devil wants you. CONTEND! There are Godly women. I am rasing some now. Take one off the Duggars hands.You are worse then any feminist if you have the power to contend through the power of Christ Jesus and bury it. God is clear what He does to those servants who bury talents in the ground in fear.

If they get too lonely, they can always find a high-N post wall single mom type to marry them, or maybe just for a GF/FWB. Its not like there's any shortage of such women looking for love and attention from men. Not sure that would be an improvement over loneliness though.

There have always been MGTOW; they're not going anywhere. Christianity pulled them into the social fabric of the Church early on as husbands, clergy, monks and probably just uncle-type helpers, but they were a part of the family. They are essential and can't be dismissed without catastrophic results. Who do you think it is that really tears apart the civilization when things get nasty. They must be integrated.

Shame away dear MGTOWs. In a generation you will be gone. And what will remain?

What will remain? GOD will remain. Everything of this world - children, mothers and MGTOW's included - is passing away (1 John 2:17).

It's biblically illiterate to claim that a faithful Christian mother does the will of God more faithfully or effectively than a faithful Christian man who GHOW.

The Bible tells us that God blesses children through their mothers (Prov 31:28) and that children are a blessed heritage (Psa 127:3) and that parents are to be honored (Exod 20:12), but it speaks no differently to the spiritual potency of motherhood than that of MGTOW.

Let's divest ourselves of the notion that any one earthly role is more blessed than another, as the Bible tells us otherwise. It tells us that sin prevents all Christians from loving and serving God as they ought no matter which role in life they play, and that the more faithfully we follow Christ, the more the sin will be pruned from our lives and the stronger God's army will become.

One day, Satan's dominion over this world will end and the animosity between mothers and MGTOW will vanish into the idolatrous earth from whence it came.

It's not a vow. It's just that you choose against women by default until the society changes. Sure, you might have to take the fall for other men. Or, you might get extremely lucky and find yourself in circumstances where it does make sense to marry. Then other men would take the fall for you.

Shame is dead in modern society but doubly so for mgtow'ers. They recognise it as a weapon used by people who do not have any regard for their interests. Only idiots would allow their enemy to use shame to get them to go against their own interests.

There is no shame in looking at a society that regards men, their rights and desires as expendable, and saying, "no thanks".

How about offering a better deal to men?

At some point you are going to have to, or society is going to wither as increasing numbers of men check out (in one way, or another).

And the difference between mgtow and cat-ladies is that the men have looked at the realities and made the best of their options, the women demanded that the world deliver what they wanted and are now living with the consequences of their own personality quirks.

You're making it sound more dramatic than it it, Josh. "Yeah, I went there" was a challenge, and it demanded a response. It's not a beginning of some great feud unless people go out of their way to make it that.

the whole thing is great, but the last 3-4 minutes deliver the message concisely. Or you can read the transcript on the page linked to above and excerpted below:

And one thing the apexuals at the top, like Bill Bennett and Obama, feminists like Kaye Hymowitz and Katie Roiphe, and traditionalists like Suzanne Venker, will never realize is that using shame to try to coerce men to do what is expected of them isn't going to work this time, because while it's possible to shame a man into giving his life for his country if there's a promise of respect in it, it's impossible to shame someone into working his ass off and risking his future just for the joy of looking in the mirror and seeing Homer Simpson or Ray Barone looking back at him.

When the cost of society's approval is the self-respect you derive from a positive identity, it ceases to be worth it to a lot of men.

Gravy...a woman shaming men for having independent thought. Get back in the womb!

In this crazy, chaotic world it is the MGTOW that is attractive to women...not those plugged into the women, sulking off mommy's teet.

I go my own way because the way we have today is the path to destruction. I don't hate marriage and I won't put it away as a possibility...but it has to be on my terms with a woman I find worthy. Because when it is on a woman's terms divorce and misery is the result.

Think about it...why do they get all butthurt when a man declares this?

Yes, most of the pathetic stuff was from the anonymous comments, but even the comments of mrgreenman and Brian the brain weren't very effective responses.

The way I see it, there is Team Woman (feminists and the weird traditional womens rights), Team Men (MGTOW/MRA/PUA) and Team Civilization. I would put Vox, Dalrock, SSM, SD, probably Rollo on Team Civilization. However, I would place Aunt Giggles on Team Woman.

I talk about their self pleasuring proclivities because it makes them jump and run in circles. It's funny.

Also, I think MGTOWs ignoring the very real intensity of the sex drive in men is evil. Telling young men to GTOW and not being honest about the sex drive is very similar to feminists telling young women they can have it all.

I'm speaking of Christian men. Naturally, non-Christians can run around having plenty of sex without moral hesitancy.

When you have a 16 year old son who forgets to clear the history on his mom's Kindle Fire, a father realizes that it needs to be discussed. When your son anguishes and is frustrated you know it's time to tell him of God's plan for him to overcome the all consuming thoughts. It's not a sacred cow in our home. We don't allow for those. But I'll be honest, thank God for football practice starting this week. 16 year old young men should be physically exhausted, always.

Ok. We are getting no where here and fast. I have an idea. I have been kicking around the idea of a matchmaking business. I would offer credit and background checks, poly graph exams and interrogation. We could also offer additional services. Why burn with lust? Why have you child marry someone you hate? Why clean cat poop the rest of your life. I have associates who can train you in the art of dating interrogation. Let me know if you are interested. Thanks.

SD: But I'll be honest, thank God for football practice starting this week. 16 year old young men should be physically exhausted, always.

Amen, sister. My son's one brief season playing football and training for his brown belt (then tearing up his spare time doing kickflips, ollies, and grinds or "filming" his friends doing so) was all too short, in retrospect. It was hectic and busy, but one of the best for his mood. Lo, those were many moons ago. The mood, not so good these days. He's a 22-year old who was quickly poisoned at the well of the academy (college) and forgot the meager Christian rations of his upbringing (I came late to the fold; his father strayed). Many prayers.

Do you really want to debate this as a cultural relevence thing Markku?

It the same to me if it is debated or not. But if you want to debate it, then this is the only part in the passage that is a command from God and therefore absolute:

1Cr 7:10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:1Cr 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.

The rest is Paul's own opinion. When the assumptions in his reasoning don't apply anymore, then it stops being relevant for that time. If they start applying again, then it becomes relevant again.

You know how movie scripts say "enter Bob" and "exit Bob"? I was poisoning the well for the inevitable dude who comes and informs everybody that he in fact does get sex from his wife, after which I would have said

The creepy youth leader? Maybe. But the culture has no answers for teenage lust anymore, even inside the church.

Porn is evil. Pre-marital sex is sin. But heaven forbid we let young men and women marry young and actually relieve their passions lawfully!

What we get is teen boys being told they're bad and evil and twisted and sick because they have sexual desires... and we tell the boys and girls to go through school, get careers, delay childbearing, etc. - rather than marrying young.

Restraining our lusts is good for us... but in the case of healthy desires, it can only be managed for so long before sin sneaks in. Those who expect men and women to maintain their purity until they're in their mid-20s are living in Candyland.

Mutual submission does not mean both submitting to God, nor does it mean both providing for the other. The word "mutual" means exactly that, which renders it a nonsensical phrase. It is really used for purposes of conflict avoidance.

The concept is similar to "mutual disarmament" or "50/50% partnership", inevitably leading to either stalemate or a fight over who goes first. There is no 50/50. It just never exists. And men well know that a women is very capable of maneuvering a stalemate into a win, no matter what.

So the next time you hear a preacher use the phrase "mutual submission", call him on it. Ask him to explain exactly how that works. Take an example where a husband and wife disagree on something important, such as whether to put their money in savings or buy gold. How does mutual submission solve that problem?

Vidad when are Christians susposed to look to the culture for anything? The Bible says marry rather then burn. Paul says his being single is a gift to do what he was called to but that most are not called that way. How can a Christian man lead his sons another way? My children are being raised to be living sacrifices. I am praying others are doing the same.

Vidad I went and read your comment again. We are on the same side I think you just dont know RLB. I was worried. I thought I knew you as a comme ter here lol. Btw Iooooove the make me a sandwhich song. I would love to play it on my podcast.

Markku are we to ignore Gods commands on the subject starting in Genesis? Could you point out where men and women of God should abstain from marriage because the world corrupts it? I would think men in this position should consider Proverbs 31. The point is here is what you look for and it is rare. That is to a King of Israel thousands of years ago. It was always rare and those who search find.

Lol. I will have to have my Husband approve it. Look for the email soon.

If you have the inclination, check out SDand RLB s blog. They both blog. I have always liked Markku too. But I think he is giving snakes approval to keep injecting venom and I pray he is one day a warrior with many arrows.

Markku are we to ignore Gods commands on the subject starting in Genesis?

Point to the specific commands. You have already pointed to Paul's words in a passage where he explicitly says that only one of the commands in it is a command from God. Nope, you have to do better.

Could you point out where men and women of God should abstain from marriage because the world corrupts it?

It's not a "should" kind of a thing. I already said:

"It's not a vow. It's just that you choose against women by default until the society changes. Sure, you might have to take the fall for other men. Or, you might get extremely lucky and find yourself in circumstances where it does make sense to marry. Then other men would take the fall for you."

It's just a different expectation. In times past, your default expectation was that you'd get married, unless special circumstances dictate otherwise. As I see it, in this time it is that you don't get married (if you're a man), unless special circumstances dictate otherwise. Same goes for me - it is not at all certain that I won't. It just takes a lot more to persuade me to, than if this were some other era.

Nor am I telling anyone not to get married. I'll just try to not be intolerably smug when it goes the way I expect it to.

I understand the idea and why it's attractive. But it's just another dead end.

I met a man at the gym. He's in his 80s. He told me he went there every day with his girlfriend. "Notice I didn't say my wife," he says to me. When I gave him a questioning look, he continued, "I never married. Never wanted to. I live my own life."

The guy wasn't a believer, so obviously he's not violating a faith that he holds. But still... his "life" is a life of perpetual juvenility. Still hitting the gym like a 20-something, body decaying away, living with a woman, and leaving no legacy. Never got to teach his son to ride a bike. Never got to pass on his thoughts to kids. Never had a daughter sit on his lap and tell him she loved him.

On the other side of the coin, my own grandparents died in their 80s, surrounded and mourned by many children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren and friends they had basically adopted into the family. A man they had saved off the street two decades ago visited me just this last week... and told me with tears in his eyes that my grandmother had shown him love and called him "son" when no one else would.

The exponential growth of their family led to 43 descendents... and not a single divorce in the two generations after them. There's only one of those 43 who drifted away from the faith. Amazing.

Alternately, you can hang out at the gym with a barren old woman as your "girlfriend" and die basically alone.

It's the male version of the feminist crazy cat lady who still goes out for happy hour with her single, barren friends, downing the sorrows of their crusted, dried out vaginas in colorful sugary drinks ending in -tini.

No Josh. These men that we are discussing are claiming it is cultural right now and that is new. When did the Queen tell her son to not marry because it was hard or to lower his standards? She did the opposite.

@Carlotta, to me MGTOW doesn't necessarily mean having nothing to do with women,it means that I will not be guilted into marrying a mid-thirties single mom because she and the culture want me to. I passed on one just recently despite the typical pressure,and just started dating a woman with no children who is more to my liking.To me MGTOW means:I'll do what I think is best regardless of social pressure.

Based on what seems bad teaching from too many pulpits, am grateful to have drifted from first church I attended after becoming a believer. The new preacher was cornily led by alliteration; the last series I partially stomached was on the need for us to be Mission-minded, Multicultural, and have a Mestizo-mindset. Blek. I was repelled by the bad writing, not as fully aware of the stinking, rotting message, at the time.

Much of the frustration expressed here (i.e., mutual submission, etc.) seems symptomatic of bad teaching. It should be questioned. It's also understandable that when we pick mates poorly or are deceived and get burned, it is very hard to trust ourselves or others again. We can only work on ourselves then. I stayed married in part because I recognized chances weren't good I'd make a better choice if I bailed and tried again. This was before my perception of good and bad was realigned by Christ.

Men and women are not wired to want or need sex the same way. There's nothing new about this, but one of the unintended consequences of the lie of equalitarianism (feminism and over-sexualized females) is gender-neutral solipsism. We are NOT the same. It's been said here before. Men feel physical desire for sex at least daily. Women may FEEL physical desire 2-3 days out of 30, more or less. Doesn't mean as a woman I cannot accept the terms of an agreement in which I've entered and have a stake in upholding. Knowing terms in advance and having meaningful consequences if I renege is reasonable, if not critical.

Compromise and cooperation are required for marriage, but someONE has to lead. Men are better suited to lead. Make it clear you are marrying primarily for access to sex in exchange for provision and mean it. That will screen out pretty quickly.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

This was the first example I was talking about. The original plan before we both fell.

jonw, then we agree. However, on several blogs recently there have been various commenters reaching out to single, Christian men and telling them all women are sluts and not to get married. Strangely enough, one then tried to get another to meet up with him after badly displaying ignorance of the Bible.

These commenters are flooding in and only disparaging women. Nothing constructive.

Would I be correct in assuming that the environment in Finland is significantly more toxic for men than it is in America?

Toxic isn't really the right word. In a sense, the situation is better - obese women are somewhat rare. You'd probably call the majority at least "pretty". However, the culture is so utterly saturated with progressive philosophy that there's just no fight left. There's not enough men for them to be toxic to.

I think looking for a wife is exactly the first mistake, from which it all goes downhill. I think the answer is to go your own way, and if you are very lucky, a prospective wife turns up. But you shouldn't expect her to, or you'll probably fall for a "false positive" in quite a lethal way.

I hope you realize that it would be profoundly stupid to try having a serious discussion with someone who is playing a cartoon character.

He's effectively playing the part of Screwtape -- there is no discussion to be had, at least not with the subject of his commentary. Perhaps what we need here is a Wormwood, but it's not clear what the Nordic counterpart would be.

The words "mutual submission" came from SarahsDaughter in a previous comment, in which she used them associatively with feminists and "fatties".

I repeated the term to highlight the danger of taking specific verses in Ephesians 5 & 6 out of context, specifically Eph 5:22.

If we take the whole of Ephesians 5 and 6 in context, we notice that the Apostle Paul tells all Christians to submit to one another in the fear of God. This he does first (Eph 5:21), then gives three example of how submission plays out in different kinds of relationships. The first kind is marriage, the second is the parent-child relationship (Eph 6:1-4) and the third is the master-bondservant relationship (Eph 6:5-9).

If we ourselves want to borrow verses that seem to support whatever narrow view our argument wants to take in the here and now, let's not lose sight of what Paul is actually teaching us. He outlines the lesson then provides examples. An example doesn't have primacy over the lesson, which is mutual submission to one another in fear of God.

Markku that was a profoundly disappointing answer. I can not imagine a Viking expecting the raping and pillaging to come to him. I can not imagine not having a conversation with Loki. Shall all of life be brooding and suffering :)

Actually JIS mutual submission is taught in Churches by me as no one is in charge .....except occasionally the women. They twist verses to do this and often times a female pastor takes over soon after. I have also seen that there is no more jew nor greek taken and twisted to say there are no more genders.Might want to not jump when you dont know how deep it is.

The Christianess doesn't want to cooperate with the Christian. She wants to have her cake and eat it, too. She's an Indian-giver. She'll recognize patriarchy conceptually with one hand, and with the other hand deny its practical application. The devil laughs as the wedge between the sexes is driven deeper and women with Joan-of-Arc fantasies righteously henpeck men thinking they're serving some noble purpose.

Actually woer, I am married happily for nearly 20 years and raising and homeschooling our children while mentoring women online and off to serve my God and contribute something good to society. What do you do?

Jacob Ian Stalk said... If we ourselves want to borrow verses that seem to support whatever narrow view our argument wants to take in the here and now, let's not lose sight of what Paul is actually teaching us. He outlines the lesson then provides examples. An example doesn't have primacy over the lesson, which is mutual submission to one another in fear of God.

Yes, and his point is obviously not that each and every Christian is in a constant stalemate of submission equally to every other Christian. It is that we have roles depending on who we are and where God has placed us, and those roles involve submission or leadership as is delineated in... pretty much the whole rest of the New Testament. No where are we presented with mutual submission between two equal parties. We are presented with the fact that as we move in and out of roles, we will be required to submit or lead. Ergo, once again I say the phrase "mutual submission" is an utter and complete non sequitur.

Some are oblivious omegas. They wouldn't know if a woman was interested in them if she walked right up and gave them an engraved invitation. They are probably better off alone. If they start looking for a wife, they will probably be turned into easy divorce-rape marks. Don't start shaming them and telling them "you can do it" or "you owe society". They can't do it. They'll blow it.

Remember, however, that not all omegas have ever had any woman express interest. Some are, and forever will be, completely invisible to women. In addition, a larger number of omegas simple cannot attract a woman that they, in turn, find attractive. Nobody has ever seriously written about these omegas before. But they're out there, and their number grows daily. Remember: 105 male births to 100 female - if you don't cull the male herd (wars) or even increase the imbalance (sex selective abortion), that's a large number that wind up alone. What should they do?

AO it is not my intention to encourage omegas to marry. Makku has never come off as one. It is to point out that idiots like the commenter fracking himself are jumping on these blogs and using them as a jumping off point to encourage young Christian men not to marry.

"So a post consisting of one pic and a sentence fragment gets over 150 comments..."

It was the Joan of Arc wannabees, running in circles and clapping. Lookit me lookit me!

"It is to point out that idiots like the commenter fracking himself are jumping on these blogs and using them as a jumping off point to encourage young Christian men not to marry."

Ah, so you're ignorant as well as self-absorbed. I'm producing oil, I'm a young Christian, and I'm contemplating marriage. But definitely not to a galloping hyena or Joan of Arc wannabe or the daughters of such.

This is not a new problem. In Matthew 19, Jesus lays waste to any justification for a man divorcing his wife except adultery. What is the disciples' response?

Matthew 19:10-12

His disciples said unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

So the subtext of the disciples' question is "If that is the case, it is not good for a man to marry, because he might find himself chained to a woman he seriously regrets marrying."

It is interesting that Jesus chooses the particular response he does. He doesn't just say "No, you need to marry them anyway." But he does explain the conditions under which a man might legitimately avoid marriage.

The opposition to MGTOW is still just telling men that they owe it to society to perform a task--marrying the women that this society produces. We feel that this is wrong. When the social contract was broken and rewritten on women's terms without men's input, we were freed from its obligations. Marriage is optional, children are optional, contributing is optional. You cannot hold us to any agreement we are not a party to, no matter how important you decide our cooperation is. By walking away from you and your society we cannot be shamed because that requires that we value your opinion in the first place. You can slap some Churchian paint on your past failures and pretend to be the future, but all your words are just air. Until you start talking about meaningful solutions, most of us could care less. If you want men marrying, raise better daughters, fix the courts, stop treating us like beasts, then we will talk.

Take this as an explanation of the steps to take to reengage us, not as an attack. No amount of words are going to change my mind; only actions count in my eyes. Once you fix some of the problems we face, you might find us wandering back in to help you get the rest of it done with. If not, well, there is an entire planet on which we can make our own way. The developing world would love smart, driven, educated young men to help build their future. There, we can find the challenges we desire, and the opportunities for reward are great. We can find meaning in another land, and pledge our efforts to another people. The old age is over, and you need to adapt as much as we do. This time, we will not not swear ourselves as easily. You need to meet us halfway.

If you want men marrying, raise better daughters, fix the courts, stop treating us like beasts, then we will talk.

...Once you fix some of the problems we face, you might find us wandering back in to help you get the rest of it done with. If not, well, there is an entire planet on which we can make our own way. The developing world would love smart, driven, educated young men to help build their future. There, we can find the challenges we desire, and the opportunities for reward are great...

Yes, they can see how driven and motivated you are. You are so driven and motivated, in fact, that you lie down and demand that others do the work of "fixing" your society for you, else you shall hold your breath.

Toothless you are, as well befits the offspring of such weak sires and slatternly dams.

Conquest of such as you shall be easy--although I begin to wonder if it is worth it.

The breaking of the social contract didn't happen without the cooperation of men and men will be instrumental in fixing it. Some will marry and rear their daughters AND sons to retain and regain western civilization. Those men who do not marry would do well to not contribute to slut-making nor support females making money - in your spheres of influence be it the developed or developing world. That's all you can do, and offer an explanation for your actions to any who will listen.

Yes, they can see how driven and motivated you are. You are so driven and motivated, in fact, that you lie down and demand that others do the work of "fixing" your society for you, else you shall hold your breath.

Well, we Finns have the tradition of killing your wife and children with a hatchet (guns these days, but they are harder to come by, so I think we'll return to the hatchet). When I was a kid, one of my friends was gunned down by his father, and my mother's best friend since grade school died the same way.

This is effective but unpalatable. Then there's the option of not marrying in the first place. But I can't really see any other options for the time being.

I heard it called an Irish Revolt, defined as the collective withdrawal or efficiency from a system in order to bring that system down.

This is not me negotiating for a position, it is me letting you bid on my services. I am going to work hard and succeed no matter what, but I am giving you the option of retaining me. I am a white man in America, which means two things: my ancestors took and held an entire continent for centuries, and that they came here from elsewhere in search of a new life, a better life. I will not be lying down, I will be turning myself into a commodity. I am discharging any societal obligation I owe, and once that is done, my true work begins. If you want me to build your civilization, you have to meet my requirements, or I will find someone who will. The USA will continue to hemorrhage talent to the developing world, and we can bring our horror stories of cultural rot to prevent you from infecting our new peoples. When it comes to the point where the only ones left are the pimps, whores, hustlers, politicians, and the foolishly hopeful, the edifice will come crashing down and the fun will begin.

In short, I am not taking my ball and going home in a huff. I am going to play for the other team. I am hitching my cart to the strongest horse, and that will not necessarily be yours.

Markku: Well, we Finns have the tradition of killing your wife and children with a hatchet

Haven't investigated this much, other northern climers might have an opinion, but we always thought the annual nutting out and family slaughter was due to the damned long winters in such a barren and mind-numbing place (Iowa). Usually happened on a farm. The towns were probably worse (dirty, brain-dead), save the bars, which provided a break from one's house mates.

You do not seem to be comprehending what I wrote. Try going over it again, and see if you can catch on. Words mean things. I feel like the ones I used were fairly clear, so you should not have too much trouble.

Yes, it is clear you feel strongly. Whether you are thinking is another matter entirely.

I always find it entertaining to hear "white" men speak of how much they would be appreciated in non-white countries. They are so steeped in the nonracial, rights-based culture of their birth that they imagine it to be true everywhere.

They cannot fathom that non-whites view white men as ambulatory coinpurses--or worse, an infection to be purged--not men of equal standing.

What I was trying to say was that the words I used *were* quite clear, and that anyone operating with the standard number of chromosomes should have understood the meaning. If you are functioning at a level higher than an walking flesh sack my meaning was obvious. I was merely trying to be polite, a mistake upon retrospect, but an honest one. I foolishly assumed mental competence and a willingness to look at another point of view.

No, I am not going to wander into some hellhole and set up shop without doing a little homework first. Neither will I just pick a spot that looks nice and go there. Having been in foreign countries before, I actually understand the dynamic of the foreigner. Showing up as an obnoxious American tourist convinced that all them there darkies is pirmitirve and savajis is a far cry from integrating into their culture as seamlessly as possible while giving them good reason to keep me around. I do not give a good damn if they are using me. That is a feature, not a bug. Self interest will push them to keep me around to extract as much as they can from me. As long as I produce something they value, and prove that I will earn my keep, I will find someplace that will put up with me.

Besides, I am not moving to Africa, or the Middle East. Fuck those people. I was thinking Eastern Europe, or maybe Southeast Asia. They have plenty of space for educated men to help build their economies and their nations. Loki, you should know what happens when the sons of the north leave home. Do you remember what happened to Rus when he went abroad? I will give you a hint: he ended up with a country named after him, and his own eponymous ethnicity. Try to guess which one that is. Have fun!

I do not give a good damn if they are using me...Self interest will push them to keep me around to extract as much as they can from me. As long as I produce something they value, and prove that I will earn my keep, I will find someplace that will put up with me.

So you will go to a place where you will be used, your productivity in the service of others deemed your superiors the only cause for the bare tolerance of your existence. You will sell yourself into sub-humanity and slavery.

Yes, I am sure that is preferable to the horrors of your current home.

I was thinking Eastern Europe, or maybe Southeast Asia. They have plenty of space for educated men to help build their economies and their nations.

Which is why their educated young men move to America and take the "jobs Americans won't do".

If you think--pardon me, feel--that these places are free from feminist supremacy, Muslims, and abject hatred of white men, by all means go. Enjoy. Do not wait here, for the war you demand be won on your behalf, O delicate damsel, is only beginning.

I will be waiting to hear of the new ethnicity that springs from your limp loins amidst the hordes of Slavs, Muslims, and various Asians that already exist and despise mongrels.

"So you will go to a place where you will be used, your productivity in the service of others deemed your superiors the only cause for the bare tolerance of your existence. You will sell yourself into sub-humanity and slavery.

Yes, I am sure that is preferable to the horrors of your current home."

As far as I can see, that is what is happening to me here. I am constantly bombarded with messages of how as a white male I am the most oppressive and racist and sexist and... Ad nauseum. Facing more and more brutal tax scemes to pay for the barbarian interlopers the ruling class hopes to exploit for free labor indefinitely, a modern Danegeld. Watching the few rights the elites have not yet twisted or outright stolen fade away. I could stay an fight, but for who? The people who created this mess in the first place? All of the immigrants swarming our shores and disrupting society wherever they decide to infest? Hand them a functioning country after a decade or more of war and watch them run it into the ground as they pursue their pleasures? Or maybe a dictatorship! With only the Right People (TM) in positions of authority, because that could never go wrong. Yeah, yeah, the old canard about creating the most powerful and advanced nation on earth goes to them, but then, *so does destroying it!*

"Which is why their educated young men move to America and take the "jobs Americans won't do"."

Americans will not pick fruit. Why should they run a country? Especially since--and this cannot be overstated--they ruined it in the first place. Let them suffer and die for a few generations, until they get their act together. maybe my grandchildren will return someday. I doubt it.

Why then call yourself "knight", Shadowed Damsel? A knight will take up arms in his own cause, and does not demand that others fight in his stead. It is the princess in a tower who cries out for rescue.

Americans will not pick fruit.

Nor, apparently, will they program computers, work in science labs, fight for their rights, or rule themselves.

I do not disagree, however. Your race in toto--the human race--is weak, addicted to empty sentiment, and loves to be subjugated. You crave subjugation, tyranny, the lash and the shackle. Even you yourself, Shadowed Damsel, seek it, for you will bend the knee to anyone who will offer you a crust of bread without kicking out too many of your teeth--anything, so long as you need not live in this tower.

You deserve a dictator, and you will receive what you deserve--by your own hand.

maybe my grandchildren will return someday.

Your assumption that you will be able, much less permitted, to breed with the natives amuses me.

Lest you worry, by the bye, I care little what you do, but goading you into ever-higher shrieks of indignation and ever-louder cries for enslavement is entertaining.

No, I understand the whole fantasy aspect of your persona. I even agree with you, to a point. People need order. If they are incapable of providing it on their own, someone else will have to step in.

A free knight has no cause, besides his own well being. I took up arms for another once before, and it was perverted around me, until my service was a mockery of my values. Never again. Loyalty to an ideal over loyalty to an area. A mercenary paid in ideology rather than coin.

You try to command obedience to a dead order, in the hopes of hanging onto the old ways as long as you can. Like a modern day Aztec sacrifice, tearing out the hearts of men and the unborn on the altar to keep the civilization rising every day. Terror to keep the people in line, a profane temple built on blood and atrocity. You can have this. I want no part of it. You created it, you ruined the brightest hope of all mankind and turned it to the service of lies and darkness.

You guilt and shame all you want, the sluts can starve in the world they wanted. I will be elsewhere. In ten or fifteen years, neither of us will remember or even care about this conversation. When the boot rests on your neck, you might recall this, but at that point it will not matter.

I enjoy arguing with others, but I would not say that I become indignant of the catcalls of someone aping a dead god. You picked a poor fantasy for yourself. I will take my ugly reality any day. You are running just as much as I am, only my flight is actually meaningful. You have merely fled into your imprisoned mind.

Not at all. I am merely prodding you to see what other silly fantasies you harbour. Tell me, did you develop it from your love of anime?

the sluts can starve in the world they wanted. I will be elsewhere.

Starving in the world you wanted. But at least you will have got your revenge on those girls who would not date you by removing your invisible self from their presence.

When the boot rests on your neck,

Ah, no. My boot, upon the necks of others. You fail to understand that not all men are as weak as you, eager to serve some master instead of doing what it takes to get what they want. You fail to understand that some men are able to lead, in peace and in war.

I will take my ugly reality any day.

And you will have it, in spades, for the rest of your life. That much is certain, Shadowed Damsel. Your slave's heart prevents any other fate.

You are running just as much as I am, only my flight is actually meaningful.

Think what you will, Shadowed Damsel. I do daily what you claim is impossible. I am building the future, while you are but dreaming that someone else will deliver it, gift-wrapped, to your doorstep. Your plan is to sulk in a corner and then run away from home, muttering to yourself that everyone will miss you when you are gone.

Silly Damsel, go back to cutting yourself and mooning over mail-order bride websites until you have saved enough of your allowance to change your current slave cabin for another. Your kind will be unwelcome in the days to come, in any event.