If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

The way I look at it is, if you want to train your dog with a collar then go for it , If you want to train your dog without a collar then go for it. Just train your dog because an untrained dog ain't much count for hunting in my opinion

_____________________________________
Don't trust anyone who would rent a pig !

Yes, of course there is more than one way to train a dog......... but, to train a dog to successfully compete at the upper level of the AKC FT spectrum the logical choices are very limited

john

I agree John ...To be the top dog or dogs in the US it takes a lot ...but ..not all want to be any where near the top...for many reasons...time, expense , family matters, ect....To just make it as a so called good meat dog for the so called average hunter , the dog does not have to be able to jump through all the hoops a competition dog has to....As Mary said " there are many ways to train a retriever" ...The work requirement is far different...even a master HT dog is far over trained for some hunters and their needs...Steve S

I agree John ...To be the top dog or dogs in the US it takes a lot ...but ..not all want to be any where near the top...for many reasons...time, expense , family matters, ect....To just make it as a so called good meat dog for the so called average hunter , the dog does not have to be able to jump through all the hoops a competition dog has to....As Mary said " there are many ways to train a retriever" ...The work requirement is far different...even a master HT dog is far over trained for some hunters and their needs...Steve S

I would have liked to have replied earlier but here goes.

First off steve schreiner, this isn't a bash to you but more of a response from a former "meat dog" man who now wants to have the best retriever possible.

Here's the scene.

Flooded rice as far as the eye can see. 100 acre zero grade field in front of the pit blind. 100 acre zero grade behind the blind, but there is a wide (for north east Arkansas) levee directly behind the blind. If 100 acres zero grade has a couple to three inches of water on it, it looks like a 100 acre pond.

Two ducks come in straight from in front of the blind at Mach 2. Both are easily in range before they are seen but because of there speed they are both passed the blind before they are shot. They are so close together when shot so the land only about five feet apart. The dog see's the birds shot but the actual fall is well beyond the last place either of us can see the birds. We have to get out of the blind and onto the levee to pick up these birds as blind retrieves.

The left duck is stone dead with one wing standing straight up on the wind like a flag. The right bird is only a few feet away, with its head up slightly. My dog locks on the birds and I cue her up and let her go. She leaves the levee and launches into the field that has a deep ditch before you reach the inches deep expanse of running water beyond. As she crosses the ditch, the right bird drops its head and begins to scuttle off, trying to hide straight away from me and my dog. I quickly realize that we will have to pick up the cripple first if we will ever find it. I stop my dog short of the dead, flagging bird and give her a big verbal back away from it. She complies by taking the cast for three steps and then heading again for the left. A battle ensues. I get her within a few feet of the cripple but she is unsure because the obvious dead bird is behind her and the wind isn't in our favor. If I could go out and simplify I would. I lose her and we get only the dead bird.

To make a long story short, I've since starting training on poison birds for this reason. The pro that helped me showed me how to train on this without pressure, except for lack of effort in doing the task at hand which is taking the cast given, no matter the distraction. I asked earlier if dogs can be trained to do this at distance on a regular basis, with out force fetching, pressure, aversive, or even purely positive training methods I would be interested in these methods that sound a lot like how I trained before I learned of our modern Rex Carr based methods. I wasn't as successful before I was enlightened.

"That's a fine dog you got there son. Looks like one of ya'll got the brains and the other one got the driver's license.".

Paul...it's very unfortunate that you'll never get to hunt with my two girls, I'm sure it would be an experience you would talk about even on your death bed. My take is, "Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog"....both of my girls were force fetch trained at about 9 months old, and there were hours and days of force to the pile and it paid off... they are more that floor cleaners, lab cabs, pets, they climb in the bed with me every night...and they are gorgous...just real gorgous....

Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

British or American or Chinese is of no consequence.

I have owned 4, 2 of which I own, test and hunt with currently. Using force to teach poison bird skills is a bad idea, in my opinion. It should be broken down and trained in a drill format until it is thoroughly taught, then reinforced in a less controlled setting, which generalizes the behavior.-Paul

I recently had the chance to hunt with a Brithish trained lab. The dog was trained at one of the top Kennels in the US that specialize in this type dog and system. All I can say is that I love the good ole USA training and breeding methods. When I am looking for a puppy and see "British or English" I keep looking.

Mine does

Originally Posted by leemac

Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

British or American or Chinese is of no consequence.

My girl does. I'll try to video this setup tomorrow and post it on this thread, if it doesn't wind up getting locked by the time I can upload the link.

Mine would also handle the water situation mentioned. We train for this, and yes... We will walk out into the field and pick up the dog and put it back where it was before it refused a cast. Doesn't take them long to "get it."

And the appallingly bad manners of the dogs in the US are all too clearly reflected in their handlers who themselves are easily distinguished by their wobbly fat arses and waddling gait.

Eug

Eug,

I too was appalled at the bad manners of my fellow Americans. Many of the early posts on this thread were slamming the subject and wondering how many pages would be "wasted" on the topic. If they hadn't jumbled up the thread with their moaning we wouldn't have had so many pages half filled with worthless commentary.

We should be able to discuss differences in our training methods and breeding selection criteria without resorting to insults. I think many American Lab lovers lack an understanding of the history of the breed and are unable to appreciate the ways in which our trials (and therefore our dogs and training methods) differ from one another. It is sad that ignorance is so pervasive in our country, but it appears to be a fact based on the recent elections.

Regarding the subject of humor, your jab was the only one at which I laughed out loud! It wouldn't be funny if it weren't TRUE! I value good canine manners and my own fitness. Maybe I'm just skinny enough to see the truth in your humor.