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Beck77

May 9, 2012, 11:19 AM

It seems like a lot of the stories in The Armed Citizen columns in the American Rifleman are about an older person defending themselves. When I first moved to Orlando in the mid-90s there was a story locally about a WWII veteran killing an armed robber with his service 1911. Criminals would do well to leave the "Greatest Generation" alone in my mind.

Pilot

May 9, 2012, 11:24 AM

I'm curious as to what type of gun was used.

forindooruseonly

May 9, 2012, 11:52 AM

I hope it was a Garand and he hissed "get off my lawn!" at them right before he opened up...

All movie references aside, in light of what happened to that elderly couple in Tulsa recently, I hope more and more elderly people start to take their defense more seriously. Being robbed just isn't the case anymore, it seems our society has become so sadistic and twisted that you can count on whatever happens to be terrible... Nothing is sacred, no lines are left uncrossed.

303tom

May 9, 2012, 11:52 AM

I'm curious as to what type of gun was used.
I would venture to say, A 1911 in .45 ACP............

ApacheCoTodd

May 9, 2012, 11:59 AM

I'm a little curious about two things and only curious - not the least bit judgmental. ;)

Also, don't (in the US at least) servicemen have to turn in their weapons?

Rail Driver

May 9, 2012, 12:50 PM

The casing they showed in the video wasn't like any 9mm Luger casing I'd ever seen - it had a bottleneck.

Rampant_Colt

May 9, 2012, 12:50 PM

According to police, Raymond Hills, 25, fled from the Elizabeth Township home just after 4:30 a.m. when 84-year-old Fred Ricciutti shot him with the German Luger he used in the Korean War
I wonder if it was a nickel-plated .45 Luger? :rolleyes:

Mp7

May 9, 2012, 12:52 PM

He says "i had my german Luger right here"

so he might have been a Vet of 2 wars?

Must be the first Intruder shot with a P08 in a while :evil:

Ragnar Danneskjold

May 9, 2012, 12:55 PM

"Gun he carried" and "service weapon" are not necessarily the same thing. The Luger might have been something he picked up or brought with him. Maybe he was in WWII as well. I'm not sure what the rules on personal weapons were in Korea, but he might have just had a Luger and brought it with him or had it sent to him. Just because he carried it doesn't mean it was issued to him.

Salmoneye

May 9, 2012, 01:01 PM

Wasn't a 9mm Parabellum...It was one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65×21_mm_Parabellum

Mp7

May 9, 2012, 01:04 PM

That makes it a private weapon bought in the states pre-ww2, or a captured police weapon from ww1 or ww2.

FIVETWOSEVEN

May 9, 2012, 02:52 PM

The casing they showed in the video wasn't like any 9mm Luger casing I'd ever seen - it had a bottleneck.

It was a .30 Luger

autumist

May 9, 2012, 04:08 PM

While on my way to Korea, I was in Japan waiting for transportation to Korea. I had with me my Luger, which when seen by a front line sargent, decided he had to buy it from me. I wonder if it was the same guy and my gun????????...dick

Guy says it was a 45 cal. German Luger. Now to the best of our knowledge there was only 2 produced. Serial number 2 the whereabouts is known, serial number 1 is unknown. Now that would be a VERY rare pistol.

AethelstanAegen

May 9, 2012, 05:42 PM

It clearly was not a .45 Luger. In the video he says "it's hard to hit anything with a .45 but a Luger is a very accurate gun." That isn't the same as saying that his Luger was a .45...I think he was saying why he prefered his Luger to a .45 (I imagine he would be familiar with 1911s from his service). Also the shell is necked, so I think we can safely conclude it was a .30 Luger (7.65x21mm).

Good job to him!

Double Naught Spy

May 9, 2012, 06:00 PM

It was a German Luger chambered in 9mm.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/pittsburghkdka-15751084/elizabeth-township-man-opens-fire-on-home-intruder-29232187.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fpittsburghkdka-15751084%252Felizabeth-township-man-opens-fire-on-home-intruder-29232187.html

FIVETWOSEVEN

May 9, 2012, 06:23 PM

It was a German Luger chambered in 9mm.

Then why was a casing for .30 Luger shown?

valnar

May 9, 2012, 06:40 PM

Did he look like Clint Eastwood? That's just too funny....and eerily similar.

Salmoneye

May 9, 2012, 10:08 PM

Guy says it was a 45 cal. German Luger.

That's not what he said...

Salmoneye

May 9, 2012, 10:10 PM

It was a German Luger chambered in 9mm.

Nope...

Watch the video...It was clearly a 7.65x21 (.30 Luger)...

303tom

May 9, 2012, 10:35 PM

Then why was a casing for .30 Luger shown?
Because the Media is a IDIOT...............

FIVETWOSEVEN

May 9, 2012, 10:47 PM

Because the Media is a IDIOT...............

:rolleyes:
I doubt they would find the less common .30 Luger casing over 9mm, even the media and show a photo of it on the ground.

hang fire

May 9, 2012, 11:38 PM

I read these stories about vets having and using the very same SN weapon they were issued and carried in the army &c, and I go hurumph. Over 50 year ago I was in the army and if an assigned weapon was not checked in or disappeared, one hell of a ruckus was raised until the issue was resolved.

AethelstanAegen

May 9, 2012, 11:52 PM

Because the Media is a IDIOT...............

The scene in question is not stock footage of a shell casing, it's the vet showing us the case from the shot he took. So I think the debates over on this one...it was a .30 Luger.

Rampant_Colt

May 10, 2012, 12:02 AM

Is it possible that this forward-thinking vet with his 7.65/.30 cal Luger would be capable of shooting commie 7.62x25 in a pinch? (in Korea). Brilliant!

http://world.guns.ru/ammunition/pistol-cartridges-e.html

The key differences between original 7.63mm Mauser and 7.62mm Soviet loadings were the size of the extraction groove and diameter of the primer pocket (The Soviet cartridge used primers of larger diameter).

Pilot

May 10, 2012, 08:18 AM

Has anyone really confirmed what firearm he used yet?

Murphy4570

May 10, 2012, 09:07 AM

Is it possible that this forward-thinking vet with his 7.65/.30 cal Luger would be capable of shooting commie 7.62x25 in a pinch? (in Korea). Brilliant!

Are you saying that you can use 7.62 Soviet pistol rounds in the old German pistols chambered for .30 Luger?

303tom

May 10, 2012, 11:17 AM

Has anyone really confirmed what firearm he used yet?
The old man said he grabbed his Luger..........

(Ok guys, how many of you posted without the patience to watch the vid? :-) )

Rampant_Colt

May 10, 2012, 01:23 PM

Are you saying that you can use 7.62 Soviet pistol rounds in the old German pistols chambered for .30 Luger?
That's what I'm sayin'. I strongly suggest you don't try that with your own

SimplyChad

May 10, 2012, 03:28 PM

i was so hoping it would be a 30 carbine lol

Kush

May 10, 2012, 04:00 PM

7.65x21mm luger and 7.63x25mm mauser are not the same, 7.62x25mm tokarev will chamber in a gun made for 7.63x25mm mauser and likewise the other way around, but I'm pretty sure that the 7.62x25mm tokarev is loaded to a higher pressure and would not be safe to use in a gun made for 7.63x25mm mauser, neither of those rounds will chamber in a gun made for 7.65x21mm luger.

FIVETWOSEVEN

May 10, 2012, 04:14 PM

That's what I'm sayin'. I strongly suggest you don't try that with your own

They won't work. 7.63 Mauser can be used in 7.62x25 but .30 Luger is shorter then both.

SharpsDressedMan

May 10, 2012, 05:09 PM

I cannot believe that we are still arguing about that which we cannot prove with the limited info at had. Why doesn't someone just CALL the guy and ask him what type of gun he used?

FIVETWOSEVEN

May 10, 2012, 11:25 PM

I cannot believe that we are still arguing about that which we cannot prove with the limited info at had. Why doesn't someone just CALL the guy and ask him what type of gun he used?

He said he grabbed his Luger and we are shown a .30 Luger case. What more info could you want?

paradox998

May 10, 2012, 11:49 PM

If memory serves, 30 cal lugers were early models, around 1900- 1906 and are not too common. In case it did the job.

SharpsDressedMan

May 10, 2012, 11:53 PM

You are correct. I missed that Yahoo video. He says "German Luger", and the photo referenced shows a .30 Luger shell made by Peters. If we can assume the old guy knows of what he speaks, and the picture is that of the evidence (released by the police?), then we have a winner!

CZguy

May 11, 2012, 12:07 AM

If we can assume the old guy knows of what he speaks

On behalf of old guys everywhere, we generally know of what we speak. :D

SharpsDressedMan

May 11, 2012, 12:46 AM

I'm sure he does, but Alzheimer's and the current trend for some to call every pistol a "Glock" gives us just a little doubt. I think in the old days, any pistol from "the Big War" was called a "Luger". (:D Just kidding!)

ArfinGreebly

May 11, 2012, 01:43 AM

He clearly says, "German Luger."

He fired the shot while standing in the inner doorway of his kitchen, several yards from the outer door.

The shell casing, clearly a .30 Luger, is shown lying outside. I wonder why they felt the need to stage the casing shot outside.

There's no way a Luger action, fired some ten feet or more from the outer door (with the door closed, by the way: see bullet hole in glass), ejects that empty casing outside into the gravel.

Either a) someone staged that shot outside to get better lighting, or b) someone dug through the archives to find a "Luger" shell casing, and what they found was an outside picture.

In other words, the picture we are shown is not a shot of an unmolested crime scene. It's either staged or cut together from convenient archive footage.

In any case, we're talking about a Luger.

AethelstanAegen

May 11, 2012, 03:09 AM

One of the videos shows the old man with the shell case (which you can see is a necked cartridge). So I think we can settle this. All of the videos, if you watch them, seem to pretty clearly point to a .30 Luger.

stickhauler

May 11, 2012, 03:51 AM

And it's just as likely that pistol had followed one of this guy's family home from WW-I or WW-II, and he ended up carrying it in Korea. In Vietnam, a troop having a "personal" firearm, in addition to their issued weapon, was the norm rather than the exception. Or he could have liberated it from a North Korean Officer, they didn't have a real strict "TO&E" in the North Korean Army any more than the NVA did.

AFDavis11

May 11, 2012, 04:07 AM

I think this thread is more interesting than the original post!

Jim K

May 11, 2012, 09:02 PM

I don't know the whole story, but I do know you can't get a 7.62x25 (Mauser/Tokarev) into a 7.65 Luger chamber without a very big hammer.

Jim

lionking

May 13, 2012, 01:58 PM

My dad had a German P38 9mm he carried in Korea. His capt had one also that broke and gave my dad grief like sending him out on point a lot when my dad wouldn't sell his to the Capt.

I think my dad said the Capt later took a fatal commie round while my dad swears he thinks the capt was hoping one would find its way to him.

I guess personal acquired side arms were the norm back then. From what I have read the military is really strict about that now.

RobNDenver

May 13, 2012, 02:17 PM

Wait what?

Who's side was he on?

Also, don't (in the US at least) servicemen have to turn in their weapons?
My Grandfather's 1911, holster and pistol belt are in cabinet next to me as I type this message. He brought it home from France in WWI and we have had it in the family ever since he came back in 1918.

C0untZer0

May 14, 2012, 11:43 AM

It's interesting to see the different ways that the media spin a DGU.

In this report they characterize Fred as a "brave man", "not about to become a victim", "protecting", "defending".

The home invader is said to be a 25 year old man.

I've seen other news reports where the announcer has said "a young man is dead tonight, killed while entering a home, the penalty for burglary - his life."

And of the homeowner they said "she took matters into her own hands."

It's good to see this one go in favor of the homeowner defending himself.

Rampant_Colt

May 14, 2012, 05:33 PM

I don't know the whole story, but I do know you can't get a 7.62x25 (Mauser/Tokarev) into a 7.65 Luger chamber without a very big hammer.

Jim

You are correct, sir. I was getting .30 Mauser and .30 Luger cartridges mixed up. .30 Mauser and 7.62x25 are interchangeable, not the wimpy .30 Luger. Shoulda read Cartridges of the World before posting.

Double Naught Spy

May 14, 2012, 06:23 PM

Also, don't (in the US at least) servicemen have to turn in their weapons?

I have a 1916 or 1918 1911, holster corroded ammo, and a receipt made to the purchaser who carried the gun and was allowed to purchase it when he left the military. At least in some cases, officers were allowed to buy their pistols.

CZguy

May 15, 2012, 11:58 PM

I have a 1916 or 1918 1911, holster corroded ammo, and a receipt made to the purchaser who carried the gun and was allowed to purchase it when he left the military. At least in some cases, officers were allowed to buy their pistols.

Interesting......what was the price?

WardenWolf

May 16, 2012, 12:14 AM

Wait what?

Who's side was he on?

Also, don't (in the US at least) servicemen have to turn in their weapons?

Back then, it was very common, almost traditional, for service members to retain their sidearms when they left the service. It was never officially legal or allowed, but it was so common that they issued an amnesty saying they wouldn't be prosecuted for it. And thus all these "Government Property" 1911's from World War II and such became legal civilian-owned guns.

otasan56

May 16, 2012, 08:18 PM

Maybe he saw Gran Torino lately . . . . . .

Onmilo

May 17, 2012, 09:57 AM

http://www.fototime.com/294DF965A3E04B8/standard.jpg

Double Naught Spy

May 17, 2012, 01:26 PM

Interesting......what was the price?

I could not tell you the exact amount without digging it out of the safe, but it was less than $30.

Mk VII

May 18, 2012, 04:32 PM

"The service arms, ammunition, accoutrements and horse equipments required by an officer or contract surgeon for his own use in the public service may be sold to him by the Ordnance Department at the regulation price, and the money received passed to the credit of the proper appropriation." - Regulations for the Army of the United States, Article LXXVI para. 1520

The price was likely $15.00. This policy of sales continued until the start of WW2.

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