What the ... sorry, I'm a non sequencer person, so probably any explanation will be beyond me but ... hell, what is a sequencer feel, I mean they're all dead erm I well ... I mean they go boom ta ta all the time ... erm I should say no more I guess

Sequencer feel? I dunno.. Main point is that I manage to use the damned gear for making the music I want to make. Logic is just fine. It can be used for the Arrick modular as well.. and I can even use audio as trig clicks off the RME. Sequencer feel? I really don´t know if I know what that means._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Please bear in mind all the above is entirely subjective and un-scientific. But then, I'm a musician, not a scientist. So I generally go with, if it sounds better, it is better.

(I added that last paragraph from spending too much time on photography forums with blokes endlessly arguing about MTFs rather than actually taking pictures. )

I'll bear in mind and the bum argument is pretty strong.

Still it surprises me a bit that a thing that should just do what you tell it to do has so much variability .. but as I said before I'm not a sequencer type really .. I mostly make self playing patches and mostly a sequencer will start to bore me within the time it takes to complete such a thing, so I don't spend much time on it really. I know of others who do lovely stuff with it though (& of course of course)._________________Jan

The example above is basically about choosing different sound sources?
If these are step sequences then both Logic and that other thing should perform the same.
As for groove and feel, the sound source is where it´s at._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

2005: I'm preparing some versions of album tracks to gig at Cosy Den in Gothenburg. My mrs. comes into the studio while I'm finishing the verse pattern to a song on my Monomachine...

(mrs.) "Oooh, this is good." (starts dancing)
(me) "Naah, it's a simplified version, this is the proper version." (hit play on Logic, as I've been playing the recorded version in the background while copying it.)
(mrs.) "Hmmm... no."
(me) "What do you mean, 'no?'"
(mrs.) "This one doesn't make me want to dance - play the other one again."
(I hit play on the Monomachine)
(mrs. starts dancing again) "The other one sounds like one of those funny MIDI file versions of songs you used to play me!"
(so I stop the Mono, mute tracks in Logic so it's similar to the Monomachine and then start it playing again.)
(mrs.) "Naah, still not as good... "(wanders out of studio.)

Then I thought, oh my god - she's right!

I'd been grooving to the Monomachine and the proper recorded version didn't have the groove.

So... cue at least a year of comparing timings, re-recording beats, lining up audio... it drove me bloody mad!

I've given all that up now. I just use what feels good and makes me want to shake my arse.

The arse knows best.

And I say 'awful truth' because it would be far, far, FAR easier if I could just sequence in Logic. It's quick, simple, flexible. Great for arranging a song.

But... I want a great feel too.

I know posts like these can really offend people so I just want to say, again, if you love Logic or any other DAW sequencer, that's fine, great. Use whatever makes you happy. I may be mental, just ignore me! _________________My music: here!

Listen, if the same step pattern sounds more groovy off the Monomachine, wouldn´t that simply means that the MM adds some shuffle of some sort, and Logic does not?

As for massively sequenced stuff off Logic ( which I´m not really doing so I wouldn´t know anyways ), wouldn´t many of the guys using Logic for "orchestral" film scores have been on their asses and out of work if Logic had had serious probs? I dunno.

But, way back I often found that seriously MIDI sequenced stuff often lacks in the timing department due to different and at times not very suitable attacks in the sounds used. For some reason this has generally improved a lot with modern DAWs. People are probably not on recording everything to a stereo audio track off umpteen tracks of midi anymore._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Listen, if the same step pattern sounds more groovy off the Monomachine, wouldn´t that simply means that the MM adds some shuffle of some sort, and Logic does not?

No, not groove. Like the bloke out of Autechre, I don't find Logic to be tight enough. It feels sloppy to me. It feels more out-of-time than MPCs and anything Elektron.

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As for massively sequenced stuff off Logic ( which I´m not really doing so I wouldn´t know anyways ), wouldn´t many of the guys using Logic for "orchestral" film scores have been on their asses and out of work if Logic had had serious probs? I dunno.

Oh, Logic is fine for any non-crucial timing: strings, pads, maybe even non-funky piano. I just personally don't like it for bass or drums.

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But, way back I often found that seriously MIDI sequenced stuff often lacks in the timing department due to different and at times not very suitable attacks in the sounds used.

Yeah, I remember an article around '83 or so, I think it was in Electronic Soundmaker. Depeche Mode were unhappy with MIDI timing so they used an oscilloscope to measure the timing of various bits of MIDI versus analogue kit. In the end, their TR-808 was the tightest so they used that to trigger everything!

Quote:

For some reason this has generally improved a lot with modern DAWs. People are probably not on recording everything to a stereo audio track off umpteen tracks of midi anymore.

Ironically, this is almost what I do do now. I sequence externally and then record into Logic, big tape recorder style. _________________My music: here!

Unless there are some midi data going wild somewhere, a modern DAW on say OS X should handle this just fine. I´d say it´s time for a serious bug hunt. The fact that I´m not at all bothered with jitter in Logic Studio suggests that this is probably not a common problem._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Exactly! I swear the timing of Logic 5.x and 6.x on my old G4 was tighter than it is now, on my stupidly fast eight-core machine. I wish I'd never upgraded... I was seduced by the promise of faster this and extra that.

Mind you, I could see parameters for MIDI timestamping back in OS9, in Logic's MIDI interface preferences tab. Like I said, that's mysteriously disappeared now...

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At least OSX is good for other things, like.... Well, I can't think of anything right now but I'm sure it's good for something.

The audio sync is fine (so far) but I'm guessing that's because it's a higher priority both within Logic and OSX / Core Audio. And, as fewer and fewer musicians use externally-sequenced instruments, I'm also guessing MIDI timing will become even less important. _________________My music: here!

That gives the thing a name at least . Still it's amazing that today's computers don't reserve a tiny bit of their resources for proper timing ... but indeed, they don't.

Bear in mind, this is just what a few nutters like me think. I'm sure Apple could pull out timing graphs and plenty of data to show that Logic has better timing than anything ever built.

As with every bit of musical kit, it's subjective experience. Some people love Micro Korgs, some hate them. Neither is wrong or right, however much they argue about oscillator models or whatnot.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that all my timing issues could be fantasy. However, if I prefer sequencing on Elektrons and MPCs, I can't force myself to un-prefer it, to like a feel I don't like in Logic.

So, I'm not on a MIDI slop / timing crusade, peeps should use whatever makes them happy and whatever makes them dance. _________________My music: here!

Oooh, now this would be a great circuit / plugin to build: something that progressively introduces random timing fluctuations till everything is fubar. And imagine if you could automate it so every bar went from tight to chaos or vice versa?

Exactly! I swear the timing of Logic 5.x and 6.x on my old G4 was tighter than it is now, on my stupidly fast eight-core machine. I wish I'd never upgraded... I was seduced by the promise of faster this and extra that.

Yeah, multi-tasking sounds like a pritty good idea.... except that multi-tasking for timing critical applications is insanely hard.

The idea of Unix (amongst which BSD and hence Darwin and so OSX) is to make sure all users (and processes) get their share of the cpu every once in a while... and that's at direct odds with realtime performance for a single process.

The one thing you could do is petition Apple for a realtime kernel like Linux has._________________KassenLast edited by Kassen on Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total

And another point - Renoise is way tighter than Logic on exactly the same machine. How??

Renoise is on OSX as well now? Wow.

I have no idea how they do it but those Renoise people are quite hardcore and trackers have a rich history of being optimised the living daylight out of. Logic on the other hand is by Apple and Apple makes it's money selling larger and larger computers; they'd be stupid to optimise. If they'd optimise you'd still be on your G4 and where's the money in that?

Have you ever seen those graphs showing aliasing in time-stretch algorithems comparing -amongst other platforms- "serious pro DAW" Logic and "Relic of a bygone era" Renoise? Hint; it's not pretty,_________________Kassen

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