A map made by me, based upon Russian cessions in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, and German, Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman aspirations in Europe.

Ironduke

29 Apr 04,, 04:41

Updated map.

Ray

02 May 04,, 07:51

The map does not worry me.

What interest me is that would there be Israel- Palestinian problem?

I fact, given all the infirmities of today's world, yet it is very uncomfortable a feeling since WW II or not, the Germans, who were well behind in the race for colonialism and yet a very potent race, would not have accepted the intrnational situation as a status quo situation.

Ray

02 May 04,, 07:52

The map does not worry me.

What interest me is that would there be Israel- Palestinian problem?

In fact, given all the infirmities of today's world, yet it is very uncomfortable a feeling since WW II or not, the Germans, who were well behind in the race for colonialism and yet a very potent race, would not have accepted the international situation as a status quo situation.

Aryan

02 May 04,, 23:19

Wow! Thats a pretty good and probable map of what would have happened.

griftadan

12 Aug 04,, 09:41

what interests me is to see a world map, and to see what territories germany won from britain and france.

bigross86

12 Aug 04,, 14:22

I think there would have been an Israeli state eventually, even though WWII would never have happened.

Hitler roes to power because of the German people's unsatisfaction with the current regime, the economic failure and meltdown, and the loss of WWI. If Germany won WWI, then the Jews would not have een seen in such an unfavorable light, Hitler would never have risen to power, and the Zionist movement was already gathering steam in the Post-WWI days. Granted, the state might have come in the 1950-60's instead of 1948, but Israel would have a lot more international support aside from the US, UK and France. Plus, the Arabs would not have been such an issue, because the Soviet Revolution would also be affected by the German victory, and they would not have become a superpower, by extension not supplying the Arab nations with cheap weaopnry.

Aryan

13 Aug 04,, 16:12

One thing your maps don't include are colonies. If Germany forced France and Britain to give up their colonies, just like Germany was forced to when they lost, it would have massive implications.

Indochina, would have either become independent, or become German colonies. The same goes for South Asia.

stratadmir

28 Feb 05,, 00:43

Dont you think though if the UK and France had to give up all their colonies, plus Italy and Germany did take them dont you think that Germany and maybe the Austro Hungarian Empire would have fallen because of overstretched supply lines and thin troops? Also too, where does, in your map, Corsica belong to?

lwarmonger

03 Mar 05,, 04:34

One thing your maps don't include are colonies. If Germany forced France and Britain to give up their colonies, just like Germany was forced to when they lost, it would have massive implications.

Indochina, would have either become independent, or become German colonies. The same goes for South Asia.

I doubt that Germany could have made Britain give up much in the line of anything, nor would they have tried. After the Great War would have ended, Germany would still have been psychologically incapable of facing Britain in the North Sea (much as they were all the way through the war), and Germany didn't want the dismemberment of the British Empire anyways (they certainly couldn't replace it, and they had been attempting to form alliances with England as late as 1904). Instead, a negotiated peace would have given Germany substantial concessions from France (whose homeland they could occupy), and a very multi-polar world would have developed (Britain, Germany, the United States, Japan, and perhaps Russia depending on how the civil war turned out).

The Austro-Hungarian Empire was doomed, and the only way it could have lasted for very long would be with substantial German support. Even then, it's survival would have been entirely at the sufferance of the German Empire.

EPA

05 Mar 05,, 20:59

Help, I need information on Dieepe. I am reading a book about the Rangers in
WW2. They said there were churchill tanks on the beaches does anyone know where i can find information on how many and where they were? I am making a highly detailed map of the raid i can use this information. It is turning out great. I already did one for D-day which turned out very well.

Your time is appreciated

Bill

06 Mar 05,, 04:32

http://www.combinedops.com/Dieppe.htm

deadkenny

10 Apr 05,, 13:16

The outcome would depend on when / how the Germans won. For example, do they win in 1914 or 1918? Is it a 'compromise' peace that leaves Germany with eastern annexations but not in complete control of the west? Or do we assume that France collapsed completely? The Germans would also have annexed the Ukraine - Bulgaria would have taken the southern part of Serbia (Macedonia). Hard to see the Germans taking much overseas, unless you're assuming some sort of decisive German win at a 'Jutland' like naval battle. Of course the Turks hold onto the Middle East, with German support. Clearly leaves Germany a dominant world power. I agree with previous comments about Austria - it becomes more and more a puppet state of Germany as they are more and more dependent on Germany.

ZFBoxcar

10 Apr 05,, 13:37

Ironduke already explained that it was based on the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and the German advancement into Belgium. Looking at the map France seems to have not been crushed, although they failed to get Alsace and Loraine back from Germany.

deadkenny

11 Apr 05,, 01:50

Ironduke already explained that it was based on the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and the German advancement into Belgium. Looking at the map France seems to have not been crushed, although they failed to get Alsace and Loraine back from Germany.

It does say that the map is based on the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, but I didn't see anything about the particular circumstances of Germany's victory. So, they crush the French in 1914, sign a peace treaty with France more or less without annexation to free up forces to shift to the Russian front and force a 'Treaty of Brest-Litovsk' in 1915. That's rather different from a historical war up until 1917 and then a stalemate on the Western front for instance.

Speedy

15 Jun 05,, 18:23

I think there would have been an Israeli state eventually, even though WWII would never have happened.

Hitler roes to power because of the German people's unsatisfaction with the current regime, the economic failure and meltdown, and the loss of WWI. If Germany won WWI, then the Jews would not have een seen in such an unfavorable light, Hitler would never have risen to power, and the Zionist movement was already gathering steam in the Post-WWI days. Granted, the state might have come in the 1950-60's instead of 1948, but Israel would have a lot more international support aside from the US, UK and France. Plus, the Arabs would not have been such an issue, because the Soviet Revolution would also be affected by the German victory, and they would not have become a superpower, by extension not supplying the Arab nations with cheap weaopnry.

Why would the Ottomans give up their territory?

Felix

16 Jun 05,, 10:02

For a little money or other support I think they would.

And you should keep in mind that the ottoman empire was well in decline at the turn of the century, thus there is the question how long it would have stayed a unified nation even after a victorious WW1. The large ethnic differences and problems would eventually lead to a civil war and thus destroy the empire.

lwarmonger

17 Jun 05,, 01:46

For a little money or other support I think they would.

And you should keep in mind that the ottoman empire was well in decline at the turn of the century, thus there is the question how long it would have stayed a unified nation even after a victorious WW1. The large ethnic differences and problems would eventually lead to a civil war and thus destroy the empire.

And if Germany decided to prop up the Ottoman government? I bet they would, just like they would help to prop up the Austro-Hungarians.

Felix

17 Jun 05,, 10:19

The problem is that it was already much too late to do that.
The ottoman empire started to fall apart with the independance of the blakan states, there would have been no chance to stop an ongoing decay except by a strong turn of internal politics, whihc is very unlikely to happen.

lwarmonger

18 Jun 05,, 01:24

The problem is that it was already much too late to do that.
The ottoman empire started to fall apart with the independance of the blakan states, there would have been no chance to stop an ongoing decay except by a strong turn of internal politics, whihc is very unlikely to happen.

Who said anything about stopping it? The Ottoman Empire was an anachronism at that point in history, and was just as doomed as the Austro-Hungarian Empire. However, Germany could have propped it up for decades, simply by showing support. If they were willing to intervene militarily.....? Eventually it would have come apart, probably during a WWII situation (quite a bit different from historical WWII) when Germany was distracted, but as it was having problems, I doubt it would surrender any of it's territory willingly. Collapsing entities feel a greater need to retain territory than most, simply because if they don't, then those who are restless under their rule will see it as a sign of weakness and revolt.

Speedy

18 Jun 05,, 02:30

Another point is how long would the balkan states such as Serbia stay independant without support from Russia?