Hardly. However, if we are to grow, to move forward, we need to discard those things that are divisive. The dogma and totalitarian nature of religion is an albatross around our necks.We have a choice. We have two options as human beings. We have a choice between conversation and war. That's it. Conversation and violence. And faith is a conversation stopper.

Faith is ALL about conversation and an openmind! Seems as though you don't know ur history all that well? It is the belief in God that has propelled mankind forward since the advent of the printing press. It was a belief in God that enables you to live in the freedoms today you take for granted. It was a belief in God that abolished slavery In this country. It was a belief in God that started the first Universities for the progression of mans mind. I could go on and on. But you don't want to listen or talk. You want to war. You want to force your opinions with violence because you can't see what I have. I have a total grasp on life and humanity and I hold them in high esteem and I give thanks and praise to The Lord Jesus for bringing me out of the bondage of being an animal. Your blinded by hate for something you don't even understand.
Ur right, we all need to grow. But you can't know where ur going if you don't know where you been!

History is littered with untold number of corpses that did not enjoy the benefit of your "open minded "faith. Crusades, Inquisition, the subjugation of women( half the human race) and on and on. Perhaps it is you who needs a history refresher. I have never heard of an atheist suicide bomber. Nor have we burned , drowned or murdered because of our lack of faith. Good men do good things and bad men do bad things. It takes religion to make good men do bad things.
TY

Rankin nails it.
And by the way, morality, our concept of The Golden Rule or ethic of reciprocity, predates Christianity by at least 800 years depending on your source. The Golden Rule can be found in the early contributions of Confucianism (551–479BC), the Code of Hammurabi (1780 BC) ancient China, Egypt and Greece.
"There are sections of the Bible that I think are absolutely brilliant and poetically unrivaled, and there are sections of the Bible which are the sheerest barbarism, yet profess to prescribe a divinely mandated morality—where do I start? Books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Exodus and First and Second Kings and Second Samuel—half of the kings and prophets of Israel would be taken to The Hague and prosecuted for crimes against humanity if these events took place in our own time." Sam Harris
The Bible and the Koran are hardly a beacons of morality.
TY

Are you suggesting that a aspiration to a high moral standard is not possible without belief in a particular god, rather than another god or no god at all?

Not particularly. Any man can posses the same moral equivalency as his neighbor or village if he so partakes. But for the example of slavery. Lincoln was just the signer of the bill. It was a Scottish Protestant who hearing a sermon form the bible on how all men are created equal was he inspired to argue and fight for the rights of black people. Prolly the first white man to profess that the black man was created in the image of God. At the time This was a slap in the face to everyone. Atheist and religious alike. Slavery was socially accepted by all and commonplace. So even the religious had it wrong and by no means am I sticking up for all people who claim to be religious or Christians.

That's just it, the whole bible HAS to be taken in context. The Old Testament was written for people from 0 AD - 10,000 BCE. The New Testament was written for now. That's not to say we're to disregard the OT. There are many lessons we can learn of Gods character and that of mans. Whenever you hear people down talking the bible because what is said in the OT they haven't a clue about Christianity.

You want to war. You want to force your opinions with violence because you can't see what I have. I have a total grasp on life and humanity...

This is the scary part.

Refers back to my post a couple weeks ago. I thank Fate, Reason and Science every day compassionate and peace-loving Christians and Muslims who take the bible's supernaturalisms literally don't have the numbers to create law if not fatwa in this democracy.

Can't read all of these last two pages tonight I don't have time. But Tony, I respect you mucho. So, please tell me exactly your definition of religion. I only ask this because my best friend, jesus, disclaimed the religion of his heritage and time.

If people read Matthew Chapters 5,6 and 7 and lived it our whole world would change for the better.

I rarely enter these threads of religion and politics but thought I'd drop by tonight. I don't think everyone hates the real jesus, just the false christianity. Jess sayin' I don't have a lasso around the truth. But then has the truth ever been lassoed? Aren't we all learning, I hope, loving and exploring life and all it holds for each of us?

That's not the claim. The moral of the OT is the 10 commandments. The moral of the NT, and the lesson Jesus taught is to love ur brother as thyself. No one can live by the big 10. And no one can keep hold of any morals. That's what the whole bible and our own experiences teaches us. That's why God sent Jesus, to pick us up when we fall.

Oh and what about those Japanese Zeros. They where unreligous suiciders.

By any love and respect for human dignity measure of morality, certainly one that embraces confirmation by weight of evidence over ruling blind faith in unsubstantiated doctrine enforced by complete deference to untestable authority, queers are no more or no less a moral type of people than the rest of us.... kind of like the european Jews of 1930. We know that as fact not blind doctrinal faith, just as at one time we suddenly discovered that in fact the world was round not flat.

Bruce I respect ur arguments, but I'm still learning too.
One thing, morals only arise when there are two are more people. So firstly I only need to be right to what pertains to the immediate me. That means not going against my conscious. which is the summation of all my reasoning through what I've seen and experienced. What's ok for me might not be ok for you. And visa versa. So by whose mold should we form these morals?

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was the intent, rather than as a club of dominance and submission.

You know ur not that far off.. I seeing now how materialist(compared to spiritualist) get blinded by the rules and laws and fear punishment. You really should read the NT. the whole reason for Jesus was to do away with the laws. Man cannot be perfect and is not good. Atleast in Gods eyes. And not that we shouldn't try to be the best we can be. The only law Jesus said you must follow is to love your brother as yourself! Think about that. Could you ever tell your brother to f*#k off for ever because you didn't agree on something? Or disown him for taking 50 bucks out of ur wallet. You might get pissed, but if rationalized with an apology would you forgive him. And if he loved you like a brother he prolly wouldn't do that in The first place. God will forgive us for anything and we should do the same to each other. What you do for the least, is the most you can do for God. Meaning, when help someone that isn't as fortunate as you, you are acting like God. That's not jus giving someone money, it's giving advice, knowledge, guidance, discipline,etc. I think brotherly love is the only moral we need.

I'm fine if other people are practicing christians and can find strength in it or whatever, just don't come to my door to talk to me about it and don't try and teach any of it in public schools. That doesn't seem to resonate much, though.

When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies. It can't be said any clearer than that. This IS the reason faith is a conversation stopper.
TY

The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude.

That's just it, the whole bible HAS to be taken in context. The Old Testament was written for people from 0 AD - 10,000 BCE. The New Testament was written for now.

"New" testament is at least 1000 years old, innit? Parts are older, redactions included. I've never been able to reconcile that ancient bs to the world I live in, not without some mighty suspension of disbelief.