Mixed Light Industrial with Residential - Live/Work

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"Retirement" years are fast approaching and have been contemplating a Florida relocation but have interest in a property that would serve both living and working. If I get to 80 I'll still want/need a shop to build things. I see that other cities are putting in creative zoning efforts along these lines. An established example of this is in Berlin Germany and called "Hackeschen Höfe"

Anyways just wanted to see if other "makers and sawdust addicts" here have had thoughts and wants similiar. Input welcomed.

Sounds like you'll do your homework either way. I know in several areas I have been they have had dual use regulations in both directions i.e. no residence in a commercial space and no commercial operations in a residential. Id think on the commercial side if the spaces were completely separate there wouldnt be an issue (multi story building, fisrt floor is shop, second is residential).

If your much of a youtuber there is a guy Tom Lipton is channel is OxTools. He and his wife live in an arrangement similar to what I believe you are thinking. He is a machinist and continues that as a hobby and she is in the arts. They have a large industrial shared space with living quarters directly attached to the shop.

I had long dreamed and strived towards a setup like that thinking how wonderful it would be to be able to walk to the shop at any time, be close to home, all on one property (bill and overhead). I got there partially for approximately 2 years in the residential/business scenario and running everything above board (legitimate business) the town required you to have a home occupation permit if you were to be working from home. Needless to say, a couple thousand in lawyers and appeals with the town zoning board and they would not grant one. Needless to say, I moved to a more rural area with no such oversight.

That said, even carrying that dream with me to the new location (and thinking I would build the dream plan) I wound up falling into a very nice 4.5K sq' commercial building and property that I purchased for a very reasonable price and while it has the ability to be dual use in the several years I have owned and operated the shop in this space I have really found that I like the detachment of leaving, and coming, to work. Its a personal thing but when I made a push at it the last time I was operating in a more artistic venture where it was nice to shoot down to the shop at 1am when inspiration hit and crank out some work. Now however doing less artistic and more straight woodworking I am finding that I really enjoy the disconnect.

Ive used the "you have no 5 o'clock when your in this business (and small-ish)" thing before and not being tied to the business every minute helps me personally to offset that a bit though I could easily see it working in a larger operation or if your just super passionate about your work and want to be in it every chance you get.

Thanks for the input Mark. I went to youtube and watched OX Tools/Tom make a plastic replacement foot for an IKEA chair. Pretty awesome. Did not see anything specifically on his living quarters/shop space.

I can understand the separation aspect of live work and need to think about that more.

Pressed for time now but will have more time during theweek cause VACA time. Thanks

Yeah, He does do some odd ball stuff once in a while. I saw one where he was repairing a fire engine toy for one of his grandchildren or something. I believe he works for Livermore Labs or something to that effect working with massive electromagnets (particle accelerators and such). Impressive breadth of knowledge. I enjoy a lot of the metal working and high tolerance work. Its like woodworking on steroids.

I was planning to convert some space to an apartment at our shop, until I talked to our fire alarm guy. The National Fire Code requires a 2 hour firewall between Dwelling places and General Purpose Industrial. 3 hours if it's High Hazard Industrial (for instance - a finishing room). See Table 6.1.14.4.1(b).

Note that there is no "light industrial" classification as far as fire code goes, and even "Business" needs the 2 hours.

You can reduce it by 1 hour if entire facility is sprinkler protected.

I'd strongly suggest you talk to your fire marshall before spending any money.

The 2 or 3 hour firewall is not that big of a deal really if your allowed to do it at all. In my experience that bigger issue is in a lot of municipalities your simply not allowed by zoning to have residential space in an industrial facility.

A reasonably sized 3 hour firewall is not unreasonably cost prohibitive to build if your allowed to do it at all.

The issue becomes you move outside a given area where the fire marshal, code enforcement, labor board, frequently visit, and people tend to fly under their own set of rules. The only time it comes into play is when you either have a claim, or employ several individuals, that bring in the enforcement agencies.

In these "out of the city limits" arrangements the insurance agent tends to become the enforcement as they are going to be the ones who pay. Whether or not they engage the fire marshal, labor board, is up for grabs.

In my area for instance, there is no (zero) option for code enforcement. The only governing bodies on my operation would be the labor board and the fire marshal with regards to employees or serving the public.

I would venture to guess no state agency would be called in if I were able to satisfy my insurance agent (salesman).

"A reasonably sized 3 hour firewall is not unreasonably cost prohibitive to build if your allowed to do it at all."

That depends on the situation. In ours, it was trying to convert an existing 2nd floor location. Adding a 2-3 hour firewall would mean dismantling the entire existing interior, which is not an option since it adjoins existing finished space.

Maybe I have this wrong, but wouldn't adding another layer of drywall over the existing drywall extend the rating? Also, possibly the doors would need to be changed as well. But, dismantling the "entire existing interior"?

Of course, I am just guessing here based on absolutely no idea what the existing interior is. But, I was just thinking...

Simply adding a layer of drywall will extend the fire rating, but not to more than one hour. For 2+ hours there needs to be two actual separate walls with an air space between*, and that wall system must extend from the foundation to the roof. In our case, the floor system in the affected area was a TJI over a bearing wall, and that floor system extended from what would be the residential area to the industrial area.

Take a look at the attached image and see what the challenge would be in an existing conventional frame construction. In our case, one of the upper quadrants would have been residential, the other upper and both lower were industrial.

I guess if money were not an issue, perhaps having separate locations for shop and living (as normal) might be a preference. But thinking in building efficiency/$ terms it seems to make sense. But the "Hackeschen Höfe" model is a good one.

It's more of a maker community concept rather than a sole woodworker's shop type scenario. Zoning seems to be moving in that direction with more inclusionary and "form based" code being used. Many cities are taking a more Urbanized approach since there is more demand for walkable cities with live/work local proximity. Plus the milenials are doing without cars more and more.

My thoughts would be a large development that could support 10-20 makers that would have shop and living space but also store fronts/showrooms for selling to the public. Throw in a restaurant or two... :) If each shop was around 5000 sf or so with ability to divide into one large main shop for the owner, then one or two smaller shop spaces for rental income. Maybe main shop is divided in a way that has a main machine room for larger more expensive equipment i.e. CNC router/Edgebander etc. And it was shared with the tenants of the space or even designed such a way where the complex has a main machine room to use by all which would lessen the individual cost burden for these expensive machines that "normally" may not be used 8 hrs a day by a single tenant/owner.

Great discussion. Look up "South Side Works Pittsburgh" on web or Wikipedia. First floor are businesses and second residential. Development built to fit in and looks like built 100 years ago. Don't know of any manufacturing onsite, mostly retail. Development built within very old part of Pittsburgh. Shops are nearby in same neighborhood. Doubt than a wood shop, or most craftsman type activities could afford the rent though. Pricey area.

Gee Wiz Ynot, you really think so? Sorry for the sarcasm but some of the previous post have been a bit perplexing. I think people don't read the posts carefully and then respond, but are off target a bit.

Understandable to a point. It takes energy to read in detail everything... Which usually is in low supply.

I think a couple of post (deleted) said to stop asking so many questions and just do it.

My reason for posting was to see if any other woodworkers were contemplating a relocation to South Florida specifically and if they had a desired to have a shop and living in close proximity.

As previously mentioned, 10-20 makers @ 5000 sq ft each = a sizable development. Certainly way past just going to HD, picking up some 2x4's and nails and start building it.

I have a shop where I live. 300' from the house. The distance is to keep one building safe if the other burns, and to cut down on shop noise and dust near the house. There is no town water, so no fire hydrants. I meet building codes, have insurance, and follow common sense fire rules.

This arrangement meets town zoning laws. I can also have operate heavy equipment on my property for fun, 24 hours/seven days. My neighbor across the valley does this. He has a mid-size excavator for fun. Nights and weekends he goes out and smashes rocks and digs roads on his 15 acres of World War I landscaping. This has been going on since 2003. In 2005 he disconnected the back up alarm.

If you go live where Men are Free to Run Loud Stuff, watch out for who you neighbors are.

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