Monday, December 21, 2009

2010 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot

IMPORTANT: Please read:

This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.

The election will end Jan 4 (8 PM EDT). Results will be posted at the same time.

Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread.

Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee. B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.+
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Reader Comments and Retorts

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

If my FLINT homeboy JIM ABBOTTT, WELLS,CONE, and LARSEN had been the CONSENSUS best pitcher of the 1980s like JACK MORRIS then they would be serious candidates for the Hall of Fame. That 1991 WS game 7 was just the cherry on the top of a great CAREER for JACK MORRIS who was the ACE on three different teams! You obvivously can not say the same for ABBOTT,WELLS,CONE, or LARSEN.

In regrds to your #200 post, I have to admit that at his peak MORRIS may not have been the equal to STEIB,SABERHAGEN,and OREL. However based on your interesting logic of there being FIVE starting pitchers vs only one at every infield position and one closer, then All FOUR(4) of these pitchers (MORRIS,STEIB,SABERHAGEN,and OREL) should have been given much more serious consideraiton for the hall.If you were naming an all 1980s team. These four would have been your ACES!
I am starting to support your perspective on the starting pitchers being underrepresented in the H of F!
I would leave Tiger Micky LOLICH out despite the brillant 68 WS!

Jack Morris was a fine pitcher, I just think he's in line behind several others. We'll start with Stieb, Saberhagen and Hershiser, add Gooden. Don't forget that several big 1970s pitchers were still throwing well in the 80s - Blyleven, Carlton and Nolan Ryan. We haven't mentioned Clemens yet either. Morris is better than Charlie Hough, Bob Welch, Fernando and Dave Stewart. I can't say I've run John Tudor through but he had a few terrific years (partly thanks to Ozzie Smith). I can't remember where I ranked Jimmy Key and Ron Guidry compared to Morris.

I also think that a lot of the success Jack Morris had was due to terrific up the middle defense in Detroit - Trammell, Whitaker and Chet Lemon. Same in Toronto (Alomar, Fernandez, Devon White) and in MN (Gagne, Puckett). Good defenses are necessary for a successful innings eater.

BROTHER ERIC J
I am not too sure about your comparison of CONE to MORRIS in your #216 posting.
CONE was obviously the ace for his HOMETOWN KC team in the strike shortened 94 when he won the CY YOUNG.

However, I do not thnk CONE would be considered the ace for his METS teams(DOC GOODEN was) or his BLUE JAYS team(actually MORRIS was in 1992).
I like CONE especially on the METS however I do not think he was as dominant or considered as good a pitcher for as long as MORRIS.

I have to admit DL from MN does make an excellent point about the DEFENSES behind MORRIS. He always had alot of great defensive help with the TIGERS,TWINS, and BLUE JAYS!

Brother OCF
I was able to find adamadkins posting at #189 however all my energy went to find your OCF psoting wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy back at #24 LOL!!!

Obviously BOTH you and adamadkins are brillant baseball geniuses because(with 2 ommissions) your H of F picks are exactly like mine. LOL!

However you both forgot to put my HOMETOWN TIGER MORRIS on your ballot along with LEE SMITH. Again, MORRIS was the winningest pitchers of the 1980s,the ACE on three teams(TIGERS TWINS,BLUE JAYS. Why not on your ballot? Is it the 3.90 ERA?

As for LEE SMITH,after FINGERS,ECK,SUTTER, and GOSSAGE made the H of F, I thought SMITH had a great chance. We know HOFFMAN and RIVERIA are going in one day.
Why not LEE SMITH who held the all time save record for so many years?

Twins: Pitched there in 1991, going 18-12, 3.43. In the same rotation were Kevin Tapani (16-9, 2.99) and Scott Erickson (20-8, 3.18). Morris had the best postseason, so I can see giving him the edge - but I can also see giving it to the guy with the same number of innings and a better ERA and K/BB ratio, or the guy with more wins, fewer losses, and a better ERA.

Blue Jays: Morris had a 6.19 ERA in 1993, so his case rests on 1992. He went 21-6 that year, but with a 4.04 ERA that wasn't much better than league average. Meanwhile, Juan Guzman went 16-5, 2.64, with more strikeouts and fewer walks than Morris. And if you count postseason numbers in 1991, you have to do that in '92 as well; Morris had an awful postseason that year, while Guzman pitched brilliantly.

So, if you go by innings and runs allowed, Tapani was the ace of the '91 Twins. If you go by wins and losses, it was Erickson. And if you include postseason stats (which is definitely a reasonable thing to do), then Morris gets the '91 Twins, but Guzman was the ace of the '92 Jays. I don't think a consistent standard can pick Morris for both teams.

Cone - Mets: From 1988-91 (Cone's first full season to his last full Mets season, since B-R's sum function doesn't do partial years), Cone won more games and pitched more innings than Gooden, with a lower ERA and a higher K/BB ratio. If you include the part of '92 Cone spent with the Mets, the gap widens (13-7, 2.88 vs. 10-13, 3.67). It can certainly be argued that Cone was the Mets' ace during that span.

Royals: Over his two years in KC, Cone's competition is Kevin Appier. Appier was much better in '93; Cone was much better in '94. Their overall records were 27-19, 3.17 ERA in 425.2 innings for Cone, 25-14, 3.06 in 393.2 for Appier. That argument can go either way. If you give strike credit by pro-rating '94 into a full season, Cone probably gets a small edge.

However you both forgot to put my HOMETOWN TIGER MORRIS on your ballot along with LEE SMITH. Again, MORRIS was the winningest pitchers of the 1980s,the ACE on three teams(TIGERS TWINS,BLUE JAYS. Why not on your ballot? Is it the 3.90 ERA?

The short, approximate, answer: yes, it's the ERA - or rather, it's the RA, adjusted by context and applied to his IP on a year-by-year basis. And the fact that he's not much, if any, better than Dennis Martinez, Chuck Finley, Frank Tanana, or Jim Kaat. And Morris was most certainly not the best pitcher of the 80's - that would be Dave Stieb.

I would note that those of us who have been with the HoM for a long time do not ordinarily "forget" significant players. We debate them at considerablelength. If you have the patience, you might consider reading those and similar threads - and realize that your silly argument style is unlikely to impress any of us or change any of our minds.

We're hosting and counting, but it's definitely not limited to HoM voters. As of now, I count 145 ballots, of which 32 come from HoM voters and 113 from other BBTF posters. We did this last year and the year before, but more people are participating this year than in years past.

OCF (OLD CEREBRAL FAN)
Ease up on the coffee.
I was simply teasing you for having the same H of F Ballot as mine except for JACK MORRIS and LEE SMITH.

I may be brand new to the H of M but I have been both baseball PLAYER and passionate FAN for over 40 years. I certainley have the patience to debate at length any H of F candidate based not only on the stats and numbers but the impact that player had on the game.

JACK MORRIS was the WINNINGEST Pitcher in the 80s. At his peak arguably better than STEIB. However DECADE DOMINANCE can not be your only criteria for selecting a SP for the H of F since you selected BLELEVEN who by no stat measure was the dominant pitcher or in the dominanat group of pithcers for the 1970s or 1980s.BLELEVEN deserves to be because of his long term overall KOs and SOs. While MORRIS doe snot have as strong a case as BLELEVEN he shold be considred more seriously then he is.

As far as LEE SMITH. He does belong on the same level as FINGERS,ECK,GOOSE,SUTTER,and eventually HOFFMAN and RIVERIA, however his SAVE TOTALS and KO/IP totals merit H of consideration.What are your thoughts on LEE SMITH?

OK OCF
Here is the stat arguement for JACK MORRIS. I know the H of F will probably never elect him wither thru the Writers or the Vet Committee however since the H of M had VISION and WISDOM to elect DAVE STEIB and BRET SABERHAGEN from the 80s I will give it a shot!

People always say MORRIS "only won 254 games". However NO ACTIVE pticehr had that many wins WHN JACK RETIRED! If you take the median number of wins among starting pitchers in H of F You will find that 254 is the median Do the math OCF. There are 57 starting pitchers enshrined. #29 is RED FABER with exactly 254 wins.

The win line should not be 300. Only a third of the pitchers in the HALL have 300 wins.The Hall line shold be 250 wins. Every ptichers with 250 wins is in the hall except for MORRIS KAAT JOHN, and BLELEVEN (who we agree should be in the Hall.)

People say MORRIS only had THREE 20 win seasons. However in teh MORRIS era it was more difficult to achieve 20 win seasons. In the fifteen years MORRIS was a regular starter from 1979 to 1993 thre were 62 20 game winners(4 per year). That is LESS THAN HALF as the PREVIOUS fifteen year period(1964 to 1978) when there were 139 20 game winners.

The bottom line is there are already 14 starters in the Hall with three or fewer 20 win seasons. Ten of these also have FEWER career wins than MORRIS.(BENDER,BUNNING,DRYSDALE,FORD,HAINES,HOYT,KOUFAX,MARQUAD,PENCOCK, AND VANCE)

People say MORRIS never won a CY YOUNG. However neither did 10 other HALL members(HAINES< BENDER,PENCOCK,MARCHAIL,WILLIS,LYONS,NIEKRO,SUTTON,RYAN, and PLANK). Five of these had LESS CARRER WINS than MORRIS.

The Biggest arguement I hear against MORRIS is the 3.90 which would be the highest in the Hall.
However remember Morris and Blelevan were the serious Hall candiates with over 2700 IP in a DH league. Without the DH MORRIS ERA may have been under 3.50.
Remember the League's ERA when MORRIS pitched was 4.09. 3.90 was better than average.
Also take away MORRIS's last two years and the Era goes to 3.73 under RED RUFFIN's 3.80

We always hear MORRIS was teh WINNINGEST pitcher in the 80s. Actually he was the WINNINGEST pitcher from 1975 to 1999. That is a GENERATION. A quarter of a century. The top winners are
MORRIS (254),CLEMENS(247), D.MARTINEZ(245),RYAN (233),TANANA(224), and MADDUX(221).

MORRIS was the workhorse of his generation. From 1975 to 1999 he had the HIGHEST COMPLETE GAME PERCENTAGE (33.2%). ROGERS(32.8%),BLELEVEN(32.5%),CARLTON (29.5%) AND guidry(29.4%)trailed him!