And now to regender the post from CassandraSays | June 26, 2012 at 6:54 pm

Like Holly, Elevatorgate just made me use the word c*nt even more freely. You want to scream at other people for being “oversensitive” and then whine about being called c*nt? Cool, then when you whine about being called c*nt I’m going to point out that you are in fact being oversensitive.

Also, the fuss over the word c*nt is such a perfect encapsulation of the broader point about how female privilege works, and it’s too important to back down on. The reason some girls lose their shit whenever a man calls a woman c*nt is that by calling a woman c*nt a man is asserting his boundaries and stating that he finds the woman’s crossing of them unacceptable. Backing off on that point is basically saying that it’s OK for women to ignore men’s boundaries, and that men have no right to ever object to any way that women behave towards them. There’s a reason this became such a flashpoint, and it’s much too big a deal to back down on, because if men aren’t allowed to assert even the most basic boundaries, or object when women cross them, then what have MRAs actually achieved? The pushback against “c*nt” is a pushback against the idea that men are people with rights.
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Clearly you can see the entitlement mentality of the overly-privileged, modern day woman, and how they’re horrified that a man would dare insult a woman back. The internet essentially ended the MSM stranglehold women enjoyed for so long of insulting, ridiculing and denigrating men while remaining aloof to any criticism. The disbelief women must’ve felt after so many decades of carte blanche reminds one of how the apes were astonished when Charlton Heston first spoke on planet of the apes.

Bravo, CassandraSays, your little lecture is the perfect example of how completely entitled so many women consider themselves. Everyone here without a doubt.
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@Noadi
“The drop in registration is because the organizers of TAM chose not to learn anything from Elevatorgate and refuse to make it a safe space.”

From coffee drinking men who dare to ask a woman for her precious company? Is it time to take back the night from these evildoers? Do the equal one’s need special privileges? Perhaps rose pedals strewn at you feel while you walk? The smell of cinnimon buns in the air while gentle music plays in the backround? Men, genuflecting whenever a woman enters the room, hanging on her every enlightened word.

“By calling a woman c*nt a man is asserting his boundaries and stating that he finds the woman’s crossing of them unacceptable.”

Er, except usually this unacceptable crossing of boundaries by a woman consists of merely existing in his general direction – instead of, you know, actually doing anything. Creeping, on the other hand, requires action on the part of the creep. Your gender reversal fails.

NWO — wtf does cunt have to do with boundaries? Even anti-manboobz manages to get that creep and boundaries are related concepts.

“From coffee drinking men who dare to ask a woman for her precious company?…”

More like “from men who probably aren’t interested in 4am coffee in their hotel room but are actually interested in sex, and can’t be arsed to not make propositions in close quarters” — you do like, leave your home right? You get that most people don’t speak much in elevators besides “floor # please”?

Well, Slavey thinks that little girls who wear swimsuits to the beach are crossing his boundaries by not having sex with him, so from his unique perspective his regendering would seem more logical. At some point he has to learn the difference between “me” and “men”, though.

This ties in nicely with the other thread! NWOs entire schtick is that women are violating men’s boundaries by existing in public and not having sex with the men whenever the men want it, and that this is something that the women do on purpose and derive sexual satisfaction from. It’s totally demented, obviously, but I guess at least he’s consistent.

I don’t see why I necessarily have to be polite to people who have been rude to me first. “Fuck off, asshole” SHOULD be an available option when someone is violating your boundaries. Is it sometimes wise to be polite? Of course. But it shouldn’t be mandatory.

I’m with ozy on this one. When people are called creepy it’s usually because they’re getting in someone’s space and making them feel uncomfortable. Why should the person who’s being made uncomfortable have to worry about protecting the other person’s feelings? Why is the onus on them to be nice to someone who’s not being at all nice to them?

Nanasha — I think your way is proper if you’re dealing with someone you know and have reason to think will care that they’ve violated your boundaries (eg my cousin’s kid going “grandma you’re in my personal space!”). When dealing with people you have no experience with besides a boundary violation, particularly a cultural normal one, there’s no reason to believe they’ll care, and every reason to believe they won’t — in which case I think going straight for the aggressive tactics is the right idea. If it’s just an accident, like standing awkwardly close to a shop door or something, then yeah, “excuse me”, but intentional creepiness? Deserves to be called creepy.

Anyways, people worth your time will give a shit you think they’re being creepy. (Also “or I’m leaving” is impossible in an elevator, which is most of why he was creepy)

Argenti- I’ve found that assertive body language and aggressive eye contact as well as very obvious scowling can also help. When someone gets in my face who I don’t know and is bothering me, I don’t usually even have to say anything at all. All I have to do is stand with my legs a shoulder width apart, move my body in an exaggerated manner (large movements with arms and hands) and stare menacingly at them. Usually that gets them to move. I also employ that “don’t walk, ride” technique- I don’t like walking places by myself because I have short legs. So I tend to ride my bicycle so that if someone does try to bug me, I am pretty much generally zooming by anyway so I can’t reasonably get cornered by a group. This is very useful because I ride my bike past a construction store every day and there’s a lot of creepy middle aged guys who shout slurs in Spanish at me (which I unfortunately understand) and try to stop me by stepping out into the street and stuff as though that’s totally ok. But I can either make concessions to my life and just never leave the house or I can just deal with the shit, even though I know it’s shit that I wouldn’t have to deal with as a big man like my husband.

Boo. I hate when people feel that they are entitled to make a person feel deeply uncomfortable. Whatever happened to common courtesy and kindness?

Isn’t “creepy” a behavioral commentary while “cunt” is a dehumanizing term used to degrade and devalue women? I can understand the idea of using the word “bitch” as corollary to “creepy” (or, ya know, “creepy” because women can do it too!) because of the colloquial meaning of the word (ie: an unpleasant, rude woman), but “cunt” is a word that is meant to make a woman into an object to be used/abused/thrown away- there is no male-gendered corollary term that I can think of that conveys exactly the same meaning.

Thankfully, it only took one “you say that like it’s a bad thing. Don’t you like cocksuckers? Don’t they bring you happiness?” type challenge on using that as an insult before My Nigel started catching himself using it as an invalid insult.

PsychoDan–I know! It’s in the title of the post, but in the comments, it’s suddenly too profane to print. Unclear on concept? (Also, whenever he writes “cr**py,” I imagine he’s saying “crappy.”)

In fact he is indeed unclear on concept: It’s terrible that female-gendered insults are treated as worse than male-gendered ones, because OMG we don’t care about men’s fee-fees! But he throws around all kinds of female-gendered slurs with the purpose of them being treated as horrible insults.

It’s like they are so incensed that women might get anything men don’t get that they’re angry at women for having slurs. No fair! We want our own slurs!

I always thought that “creepy” was a gender neutral term. Pretty much anyone can be creepy. Including my cat, who seems to think that in the middle of the night that it’s funny to peek just his head in through the bathroom door curtains so he looks like a disembodied head with glowing green eyes (they reflect off the night light in the bathroom) when I get up to go to the bathroom.

Nanasha — yeah body language is my go-to as well, but sometimes it’s 4am and you’re already half asleep and some creep offers coffee in his hotel room (the elevatorgate scenario). Afaik creep is behavior, and gender neutral. And probably species neutral, I’ve had people call my fish creepy for seeming to levitate while staring at them. Cats can definitely be creepy, my mother’s cat is big on staring at you from the foot of the bed looking like she’s debating eating your eyes (this cat really hates me, they insist she doesn’t do this to anyone else like that helps)

A lot of the men who lose their shit over the word “creepy” insist that it’s a gendered insult meaning that a man who isn’t good looking is expressing sexual interest in a woman in a totally reasonable and polite way. Having been creeped on by some very good looking men in the past, this makes me snicker.

The creepiest man I’ve ever met was incredibly good looking (and rich, and successful, with a great body, former college athlete). That dude was like Patrick Bateman, freaked me out so badly that I refused to be alone in a room with him, and wouldn’t drink anything that he handed me at parties.

Last week there was a thread where MRAs whined about sexual harassment and claimed that women only claim harassment and call “creep” when the guy doesn’t fit her standards. Then this devolved into a rant about how MRAs couldn’t get laid because they weren’t rich and attractive. It perfectly demonstrated how MRAs are just a bunch of Nice Guys tm who feel entitled to women.

As expected, women dictate how men should feel under any circumstance. Women demand carte blanche to insult a man/men in any fashion, and never be held accountable or retaliated against. Women rush to the aid of a woman who has declared it’s empowering to insult men.

With such a diverse crew inhabiting manboobz we have an excellent example of the attitude of modern day women.

What douche. He has the problem with the gendered nature of insults backwards (it’s not a horrible thing to call a woman an anxious prick, but it’s offensice to call a man a whiny bitch).

This makes people who complain that this is unfair the people with the, “victim act”.

He’s pissed off that cu*t is more offensive than prick, and want’s to what? Make prick a bigger insult?

But he has to follow it with a question begging rant about us: Very compassionate, I know. Very nuanced. As always, Says is neglecting to consider the fact that men are human, and not evil androids out to oppress her. But then again, being as Man Boobz is a vile, misandrist hateblog filled with repulsive bigots who consider men to be subhuman, it’s not surprising that they subscribe to us the most unflattering motives.

Yep, we are lacking in compassion (really… has he said word one about rape in prison, other than to show how women/feminists don’t care?), why? Because we are … insert laundry list of bad things, which makes us non-compassionate.

Others have said it more eloquently than I, but there is a very simple reason why “creepy” is reviled in the MRA blogosphere- because it doesn’t actually mean anything.

What? If it means nothing, wy do you care?

When someone uses a nonsense word (i.e. one that means nothing, has no sense) people don’t get offedend.

“Did you see what a gostchalky thing he did?”.

“Whut????”

Gostchalky is a word that means nothing. It conveys No Thing. It can’t offend, it merely confuses.

The problem he (and the MRM) have with creepy is that it does convey meaning. They just dislike the meaning. In this aspect the MRM is just like women/feminists who hate the use of gendered insults, the MRM is offended by the meaning of the word.

Where he fails at nuance is the nature of it. Women can be creeps. Men can’t be cu*ts. To be a cu*t is to be not a man. It’s treated as degrading, diminishing.

That, I think, is the real thing they hate about creep. It’s a diminishing insult. When it’s leveled at one of them he’s suddenly not a manly man, a scary man, a presumptively Alpha-Man. He’s a creep. A guy who doesn’t know when he’s not wanted. The sort of person who makes your skin crawl, and gives one the sort of gooseflesh that comes of passing a sodden patch of ground in the gathering dark. Nothing clear to be seen, and eerie noises, with a whiff of fetid air.

That’s what they hate. A single word can undermine them.

Because when someone says, “Did you see what a creepy thing he did”?, the reaction is, “No, tell me what it was.”

Or, worse, “Yes, I did. What a douchenozzle.”

It’s not that it’s a nothing word, it’s that it’s a word which is very effective at conveying a real meaning.

I’m going to join Team Not Comfortable With Telling People How To Assert Boundaries.

Or rather, I think it’s okay to say “this might work better,” but it’s not okay to say “this is more polite/nice/gentle.” Because having your boundaries violated is not a job assignment. You don’t take on the obligation to handle it in any particular way.

You know, it’s funny, I’ve had the SAME EXACT kind of “smal talk” conversations (sometimes with almost the exact same words) and some of them are TOTALLY FINE and some of them were TOTALLY CREEPY. Most of the time, it’s not just the words being used, it’s the inflection, the body language, and the way that the person invades or does not invade your space. For example, someone who is standing rigidly like their muscles are tensed and staring you down in an elevator like prey is creepier than someone who has a relaxed posture and keeps looking up at the elevator or checking their phone. Most people with ill intentions like to disguise what they have to say but most body language is VERY hard to fake (your body reacts pretty much honestly even if your brain is coming up with sweet, sweet lies).

Basically, the whole idea is that if society is going to put “don’t get victimized/raped/attacked by a random stranger” in the court of the individual woman (or minority person) then HELL YEAH you’re going to learn these skills because you need them to SURVIVE, especially if you know that practically NONE of rapes/assaults EVER get prosecuted and if you get murdered well hell, who cares about justice because you’re still going to be DEAD?

Seriously. Some guy not getting laid or hanging out with a woman because he makes her feel weird and frightened is NOT nearly as WORLD-ENDING as a woman overriding her feelings of “this is not safe” and then getting attacked or hurt and then EVERYONE TELL HER THAT IT WAS HER FAULT ANYWAY.

It’s a catch-22. I’d rather be called a “bitch” and GTFO before anything more than a squicky invasion of my personal space happens to me (which still feels shitty, BTW) than be victimized and have no recourse *JUST TO MAKE SOME RANDOM GUY FEEL BETTER ABOUT HIMSELF*. And them’s the breaks, creepy fellas.

Seriously, do creepy guys actually think that GUILTING women into overriding their safety protocols is actually a strategy that will work?

Oh, and to add to that- these guys act like they are entitled to not look at themselves and pay attention to what could possibly be creepy about their behavior, if they are truly just awkward and socially inept. When I was socially inept as a kid and had trouble making friends, I did not DEMAND that everyone just be my friend even if I was acting like a weirdo. I figured out what people preferred as a friend and adjusted my own behavior. If women are calling you a creep and giving you the cold shoulder, the first thing to do is not to invalidate her response (which you cannot directly control) but to look at yourself and figure out how you provoked it. If it’s just one person, it’s probably their own drama and in that case, why would you want to be with them anyway? But if you get it pretty much every time? The main similar factor is you, and therefore, it’s probably time to start adjusting your social interactions.

Their objections to ‘creepy’ is that the term basically asserts that they don’t have the right to consider every woman in the room as a potentially available sex object. They might have to think for a second that that girl who’s with her three friends at the bar is not there to be picked up but just wanted to have a night out with her friends, rather than assume that she’s receptive. They might have to actually talk with her about something other than hooking up for a few second and listen to her/assess body language to know if she might be interested, instead of blundering up to any woman and start from the assumption she’s available for a lay.

Basically, women to them are commodities, I like that term better than ‘objectified’ because it both contains the denial of personhood AS WELL as an assumption that women are interchangeable, coming out of an assembly line somewhere and all made to spec.

“Women demand carte blanche to insult a man/men in any fashion, and never be held accountable or retaliated against.”

If I am insulting a man (and I used to do this when I drank–this is one reason why I stopped) he is free to call me a bitch, asshole, and tell me to fuck off and leave him alone, and I deserve it because I’m acting inappropriately.

But calling a woman a cunt because she refuses to sleep with you, date you, or otherwise conform to your wishes is unacceptable. Nobody here is advocating that women be able to insult men without repurcussions. Men are people and they deserve respect. But calling a woman a cunt in order to establish that she is inferior is not cool.

Fembot: When NWO says, ““Women demand carte blanche to insult a man/men in any fashion, and never be held accountable or retaliated against,” you have to recall that one of the things which upsets him is the “insult” caused but the “onslaught” of women wearing sexy clothes and then not having the decency to fuck anyone who wants it.

Well I just walked to my mailbox wearing a tube top and a denim skirt. I saw the maintenance worker for our apartment complex, a Fed Ex driver, and an insect exterminator, all men. I smiled at them, and they all smiled back at me, and not one called me a cunt! Oh, and I didn’t fuck any of them either. LOL

A friend of mine in college told me once that she envied gay men one thing. From her perspective, they (i.e., me) got to have sex with men without having to deal with *straight* men, and she couldn’t. Now, thirty years later, I’m married and she isn’t, because neither of us lowered our standards.

Owly rerminds me of that conversation every time I read one of his posts.

On the other hand, my younger sister got married, and, unlike my two older sisters, has not divorced. She and her husband seem to be getting along just fine. Why? I guess he’s not a creep.

A friend of mine in college told me once that she envied gay men one thing. From her perspective, they (i.e., me) got to have sex with men without having to deal with *straight* men, and she couldn’t. Now, thirty years later, I’m married and she isn’t, because neither of us lowered our standards.

Owly rerminds me of that conversation every time I read one of his posts.

I’m not even sure what to take away from this comment. Straight guys actually suck? The woman was being misandric? I’m supposed to swap out “straight men” for “straight women”?

“Seriously, do creepy guys actually think that GUILTING women into overriding their safety protocols is actually a strategy that will work?”

Going by the responses from angry dudes whenever this subject has come up recently – yes, they do appear to think that this is a viable strategy which would work very well if only feminists would stop encouraging women to be all uppity.

I think NWO makes his point in the worst possible way.
So much so that almost none of the responses including his deal with the fact that there are a lot of words to insult either gender. I don’t understand why insults are gendered, but they are, and as a result, a lot of them are just offensive either way.
I’ve heard men called cunt, I’ve heard men called asshole, pussy, dick, and prick, and none of them are as offensive as cunt.
I don’t think his point should have been that men should be more offended by those insults, but rather that one gender is clearly entitled to be more injured by gender specific insults than the other.