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Back to the original topic - Cam Newton first overall by the Panthers? I'd be shocked, but I read that today on rotoworld.

that's basically what i expected from you... im sorry its not all stats stats and more stats.

Originally Posted by Vegas_Phin1

I have. But it doesn't mean that either of us want to just fight with you. You have your perspective so there is no argument I suppose. You are all or nothing Legend...no matter how much "gray area" there is. So I guess it's all for you and nothing for the rest of us. Yay Legend...he WINS again!!!

But that's just the thing... you guys are using ONLY STATS, I'm not ignoring the grey area. Its seems pretty damn black and white with you guys "He has better stats, thus he is the better player"... yet i ignore the grey area?

Originally Posted by Jmess0311

so based on this arguement ur using about the championship games.....by using this as the main point in ur arguements u are also indirectly saying..

Whoa... looks like somebody has already ignored what I'm saying. you don't even understand my main point. My main point would have to be, wait, yeah, you guess it --- ITS NOT JUST ABOUT STATS. There. I hope I made it clear.

that sanchez in better then tom brady bc in the 2 years hes been in the league he has won more playoff games then brady and has been to 2 afc championship games and brady hasnt been to any in those 2 years....

Not at all, because it is rather obvious that the Jets win more because of their defense than because of Sanchez, whereas the Patriots don't win if they don't have Brady - plus we'll forget that Brady just won MV****ingP of the league. And if you don't understand any of that, I'll make it more clear... Orton and Cutler on the Broncos? Cutler is better, but not by much. Orton and Cutler on the Bears? Well... we've seen the impact both players have on the Bears -- understand now?

u are saying that since hasselbeck beat brees hes better and then cutler beat hasselbeck so cutler is the 2nd best qb in the nfc behind rodgers, bc rodgers beat him twice....

This is some of the worst logic I've ever seen. See, at the very least, I picked MORE than one year, I picked players that have played for the same damn team. But hey, here we go, we'll ignore that Brees for the last few years has been a Top 5 QB and a SB MVP, oh and he should've been MVP of the league 2 years ago. and because we're using this logic of yours, let me show you just how ridiculous it truly is...

Muhammad Ali = Greatest Boxer of all Time (while i find this arguable, we'll say this is true)

Trevor Berbick = Beat Muhammad Ali.

So - by your logic - if Muhammad Ali is the greatest of all time, and Trevor Berbick beat him, then that means Trevor Berbick is the greatest of all time and not Ali... At least... that's just how your logic is twisting it. I mean, we're using 1 game sample sizes with you.

so really man? u wanna use that as ur arguement? of course all of this whos better talk is all determined by opinion and thats a simple fact...bc to fairly grade qbs they would have to be in the exactly same situations....put cutler on the broncos and see if he makes it to the afc championship game...oh wait he already failed at that witha better team then orton has there...

Well I already argued tat wasn't my main argument so we can ignore the start of this. The funny thing is, for 2 years the Broncos were a threat to take the AFC West even with the Chargers playing so well, for only one year the Broncos were a threat with Orton at QB...but that was due to Nolan and his defense - How'd they do when the defense faltered? Like i said earlier, Orton and Cutler on the Broncos, its almost the same (i'd still take Cutler) but Orton and Cutler on the Bears? Well cutler has proven who is better.

cutler simply loses games for the bears, he wins games but as my franchise qb, he makes way way too many mistakes and stupid throws

And Orton barely does a ****ing thing to win games!

Cutler gives you a better chance at wining than Orton does, and that's a fact.

I'm all for Pouncey in the first but I'm not going to bank on us being able to trade back like last season. Mike seems like a safe pick after watching his twin brother play so well in Pittsburgh. I'll take him at 15 if we have to.

What do you guys think about potentially moving one of our DE's (Starks, Langford, Odrick) for a second. We're logjammed at that position and we could really use the pick.

#15 is too high to draft Pouncey and he's nothing like his brother and trading one of our player on our D line is not a good idea because our defense would get much worse not better

No point arguing with you Legend... I like you and all but you always have to be right. This is no exception - so yes, Orton blows, regardless of stats and Cutler was by far worth the 2 first rounders, a 3rd, and the guy with better stats.

I should add that you shouldn't argue if stats are your only base for the argument. I also want to add that you shouldn't like me. And finally, yes, i always have to be right, I want to be right, since when does anybody ever want to be wrong (note: when being wrong benefits someone doesn't count)?

Originally Posted by Vegas_Phin1

I have. But it doesn't mean that either of us want to just fight with you. You have your perspective so there is no argument I suppose. You are all or nothing Legend...no matter how much "gray area" there is. So I guess it's all for you and nothing for the rest of us. Yay Legend...he WINS again!!!

I wanna add to this too.. Yeah, its all or nothing for me. Why? Because it has to be, because I argue that way, I'm going to do whatever I can to win, whether it be a verbal argument, and argument on the net, or playing a video game or a game of football, I don't care, I'll do what I can to win (but i wont cheat or lie, etc) and if i don't win, I'll accept it. But jeez, do not patronize me or I'll only make it worse.

#15 is too high to draft Pouncey and he's nothing like his brother and trading one of our player on our D line is not a good idea because our defense would get much worse not better

Nothing like his brother?

I've read a few scouting reports and they all compare him to his brother. Most scouts say that he's by far the best interior lineman in the draft. Maybe he isn't quite as good as his brother, however, that's not such a bad thing considering Maurkice is already one of the best centers in football. Mike Iupati was the first guard of the board last season at pick 17. 15 really isn't that much of a stretch here.

Like I said earlier, we're logjammed at defensive end. Starks isn't necessarily the answer at NT even if Solaia leaves. I don't see how our defense would get much worse considering Odrick was out most of the year anyway.

I've read a few scouting reports and they all compare him to his brother. Most scouts say that he's by far the best interior lineman in the draft. Maybe he isn't quite as good as his brother, however, that's not such a bad thing considering Maurkice is already one of the best centers in football. Mike Iupati was the first guard of the board last season at pick 17. 15 really isn't that much of a stretch here.

Like I said earlier, we're logjammed at defensive end. Starks isn't necessarily the answer at NT even if Solaia leaves. I don't see how our defense would get much worse considering Odrick was out most of the year anyway.

Like Kody pointed out most scouts said that he is isn't like his brother and none of them compared him to his brother

And it's great that we have a long jam at defensive end because that means more depth and more fresh legs that was part of the main reason why the Giants won the super bowl back in 2008

so based on this arguement ur using about the championship games.....by using this as the main point in ur arguements u are also indirectly saying..

that sanchez in better then tom brady bc in the 2 years hes been in the league he has won more playoff games then brady and has been to 2 afc championship games and brady hasnt been to any in those 2 years....

u are saying that since hasselbeck beat brees hes better and then cutler beat hasselbeck so cutler is the 2nd best qb in the nfc behind rodgers, bc rodgers beat him twice....

so really man? u wanna use that as ur arguement? of course all of this whos better talk is all determined by opinion and thats a simple fact...bc to fairly grade qbs they would have to be in the exactly same situations....put cutler on the broncos and see if he makes it to the afc championship game...oh wait he already failed at that witha better team then orton has there...

cutler simply loses games for the bears, he wins games but as my franchise qb, he makes way way too many mistakes and stupid throws

While everybody will laugh and make fun of you for this statement, I fully agree with you. I will laugh at you and argue with you at other things, but for probably the first time ever we agree on something. As I've already argued, Cutler has proven he's worth the draft picks and he's proven he's more valuable to the Bears than Orton ever was, he's also proven that he's better than Orton with the Broncos (even if its not by much), and contrary to what the stats say - which don't tell the entire story - he's the better QB.

2 1sts a 3rd and a player...is just way too much in my opinion...maybe a 1st 2nd and 3rd....which is about what it would take to move up to the number 1 pick in the draft...swap 1sts next years 1st 2nd and third...but 2 years of first round picks is too much for a franchise that wants to win....look at the broncos now...they suck

Well do you still think he's the best guard available in the draft? You sound like you're really down on the unanimous number one interior lineman.

I agree 100% with Go. He's the best G but he isn't as good as his brother. I could see him going to a few pro bowls in his career but 15 is way to high.

Originally Posted by godolphins

What has Cutler done throughout his career?

Up until this year he hasn't done anything. And I would say it helps when your D is playing good enough to stop Vick and your team only played 3 teams that had the same starting lineup the week before.

When I watch Cutler, I'm always expecting a bad interception, a sack or an injury. The guy is all or nothing, but I think he's nothing more than all. That kind of QB is not worth a 1st rounder IMO. He's as talented as the other quarterbacks but much more mistake and injury prone. More often than not, that QB is good for a great win and a devastating loss. Orton won't win you many games, but he definitely won't lose them.

#15 is too high to draft Pouncey and he's nothing like his brother and trading one of our player on our D line is not a good idea because our defense would get much worse not better

Ya Mike isnt as good as his brother but hes still good and he wont be nearly as dominant as his bro is. Our D is our strong point it better to strengthen it then take ppl from it.

Originally Posted by fingerbang

Nothing like his brother?

I've read a few scouting reports and they all compare him to his brother. Most scouts say that he's by far the best interior lineman in the draft. Maybe he isn't quite as good as his brother, however, that's not such a bad thing considering Maurkice is already one of the best centers in football. Mike Iupati was the first guard of the board last season at pick 17. 15 really isn't that much of a stretch here.

Like I said earlier, we're logjammed at defensive end. Starks isn't necessarily the answer at NT even if Solaia leaves. I don't see how our defense would get much worse considering Odrick was out most of the year anyway.

There is a difference between scouting reports and actually seeing someone play. Mike made alot of mistakes this year he isnt meant to play C by no means as a Guard i would like him but at 15? No way in hell id rather trade back get a 2nd and get the best o-line guy there or a Rb.

Starks can play anywhere on our D-line but id prefer him at De and rotate to Nt in pass russ situations.

Originally Posted by tunnicliffderek

i think cutler is worth 2 1st rounders and a 3rd thats just me though

Not realy thats atleast 2 starters right there but i dont see why yall are talking about it theres no way we wuld trade for him so it doesnt matter.

Originally Posted by godolphins

What has Cutler done throughout his career?

Well u cant blame him all the way he was awesome with the Broncos but never had a Defense to back him and with the Bears he has a great D but no O-line or Wrs

"Pride is like a blade. If it rusts, it can never be trusted. If its owner fails to control it, it will cut him."

If that's going to be your argument against Cutler, then I can't WAIT to see how you back Orton.

But to answer your question... He's done more than Orton.

Originally Posted by Jmess0311

2 1sts a 3rd and a player...is just way too much in my opinion...maybe a 1st 2nd and 3rd....which is about what it would take to move up to the number 1 pick in the draft...swap 1sts next years 1st 2nd and third...but 2 years of first round picks is too much for a franchise that wants to win....look at the broncos now...they suck

And look at the bears with their QB... I know what they'd prefer.

Originally Posted by footballer2369

When I watch Cutler, I'm always expecting a bad interception, a sack or an injury. The guy is all or nothing, but I think he's nothing more than all. That kind of QB is not worth a 1st rounder IMO. He's as talented as the other quarterbacks but much more mistake and injury prone. More often than not, that QB is good for a great win and a devastating loss. Orton won't win you many games, but he definitely won't lose them.

When I watch Cutler, I'm expecting a bad play, but I'm also expecting that play that puts the team over the top, the killer blow, something Orton simply cannot do. Cutler has more of an impact on a game than Orton does. i have asked Charger fans who'd they rather play and they say Orton for the simple fact that Cutler could always beat you on any play - Which is why I compared him to Favre. Orton wont win you many games, if any, that is true and Cutler can cost you games...but I'd rather a QB like Cutler who will take chances and go for the win than a QB that will nit-pick and try take what the defense can give him just so the team can tie the game (we witnessed this with Henne and Pennington).

Also, would you care to explain this "injury prone" non-sense? You know how many games he's missed due to injury? 1. You know who doesn't take cortisone shots and a lot of other pain killers? Jay Cutler. He's not injury prone and he is certainly tough as nails.