For my class (2013), basically nobody got Chicago unless they had ties AND were on law review. That seems to have loosened up, as when the next class went through OCI, a few people not from the area got offers. Most everyone was over a 3.5 though, and most on law review. I think that if you have good grades and at least a plausible reason to be in Chicago, you should be fine now.

Thank you for coming back to do a Q&A! To expand on the last poster's question, what were your impressions of OCI generally? Is the office of career services helpful, or are you mostly on your own? Again, much appreciated!

midwestisbest wrote:Thank you for coming back to do a Q&A! To expand on the last poster's question, what were your impressions of OCI generally? Is the office of career services helpful, or are you mostly on your own? Again, much appreciated!

I think there's been almost an entire turnover of CDO since I left, I've heard from students now that it is better. Basically, it is not bad, but if you expect them to get you a job, it's not going to turn out well for you.

OCI is solid for the people on law review or just right around there. Most everyone on law review (23/25) in my class got a job at OCI, and several others as well. In 2014, it was even better (I heard of people down to 3.3/3.4 getting solid offers). But it would be foolish to rely on OCI, because we simply do not have the volume of firms that you'd see at a T14. I mass mailed a ton, and got the majority of my callbacks through mailings. Particularly in NY, a lot of firms will be fairly receptive to an NDLS grad with good grades (3.6+ especially), but it's just not worth their time to come out to OCI.

Full disclosure, I had nine callbacks during OCI (2 from actual OCI and 7 from mailings) but did not get a single offer, due to a variety of circumstances. I was mostly hoping to stay in the midwest, but the firms were skeptical of me because I'm from NY, and a lot of the firms I called back at had quite small summer classes. So my experience was definitely a fluke for someone with my numbers.

Calbears123 wrote:Did your classmates with ties to California have a hard time getting back?

I think everyone I knew from CA ended up going back. The few people I knew got decent firm jobs. They went back and worked in CA 1L summer and worked contacts in their preferred cities, did a lot of mailing. We don't have too many CA firms come to OCI (a few, but not enough to stake your hopes on it). But if you perform well and you do a lot of mailing and networking, you can get back. I found that most people in my class seemed to get jobs back where they were from - that is what contributes to our reputation as a "national" non T-14. In that sense, it is a bit illusory, because it's not like you can get a job anywhere from NDLS. But it will usually help you get back home and is looked at well throughout the midwest.

Any insights (or trends) on the difference in students that are above/below median?

To be honest, I don't know too much about what happens to them. By happenstance (and the effect of being cooped up in the law review office), most of my friends were in the top 1/4. But I always heard a smattering of news - I heard something that 55% of the class had reported employment to CDO at some point during my 3L year. But then I see facebook posts of people getting new jobs with small firms or DAs offices sometimes. It's definitely difficult for them.

As for how to tell students apart: there is some percentage of students in every class that just don't put in the necessary work to do well, but that's a fairly small amount. Probably like 15-20%. Otherwise, it's pretty hard to know why someone does well on law school exams and someone else is just average. But whatever it is, some people definitely have a skill for it. You should be able to tell if you are one of those people after first semester, honestly. There are a few stories of people entirely turning it around after first semester, but mostly grades seemed to be pretty consistent over the years.

bob311 wrote:How effective is ND at placing people into DC? Also, general advice on where to live/not live?

You have to be pretty elite in our class to get DC, but it can be done. From 2014, we got several (K&E and Jones Day, I believe multiple to each). But all of these people were I think over 3.7. Two of them ended up clerking for feeder judges.

bob311 wrote:How effective is ND at placing people into DC? Also, general advice on where to live/not live?

Forgot to answer the living question:

I've heard mixed things about FOG, but everyone says it's decent enough and it's at least close enough to walk to the law school (although pretty far in the winter). If you have some money, the Foundry is really nice and walking distance to law school and easy access to Eddy Street Commons. But it's probably the most expensive place to live in the area. My friends had good things to say about The Pointe - a lot of law students and MBA students live there. If you want to avoid undergrads, I would stay away from the places on the east side of campus like Clover Village, Irish Row, etc, although these places are usually cheap and not horrible. One of my friends had a horrible experience at Dublin Village.

bob311 wrote:How effective is ND at placing people into DC? Also, general advice on where to live/not live?

Forgot to answer the living question:

I've heard mixed things about FOG, but everyone says it's decent enough and it's at least close enough to walk to the law school (although pretty far in the winter). If you have some money, the Foundry is really nice and walking distance to law school and easy access to Eddy Street Commons. But it's probably the most expensive place to live in the area. My friends had good things to say about The Pointe - a lot of law students and MBA students live there. If you want to avoid undergrads, I would stay away from the places on the east side of campus like Clover Village, Irish Row, etc, although these places are usually cheap and not horrible. One of my friends had a horrible experience at Dublin Village.

Lol I just put a down payment on a place at clover ridge but it was basically the last 1 bedroom apartment that was walking distance for the next year. The room seemed ok hoping for not a bad experience thankfully they let me sign up for a 10 month lease without charging me more like some others.

bob311 wrote:How effective is ND at placing people into DC? Also, general advice on where to live/not live?

Forgot to answer the living question:

I've heard mixed things about FOG, but everyone says it's decent enough and it's at least close enough to walk to the law school (although pretty far in the winter). If you have some money, the Foundry is really nice and walking distance to law school and easy access to Eddy Street Commons. But it's probably the most expensive place to live in the area. My friends had good things to say about The Pointe - a lot of law students and MBA students live there. If you want to avoid undergrads, I would stay away from the places on the east side of campus like Clover Village, Irish Row, etc, although these places are usually cheap and not horrible. One of my friends had a horrible experience at Dublin Village.

Lol I just put a down payment on a place at clover ridge but it was basically the last 1 bedroom apartment that was walking distance for the next year. The room seemed ok hoping for not a bad experience thankfully they let me sign up for a 10 month lease without charging me more like some others.

Oh it will be fine. I lived at Clover Village for 1L and 2L (and my last 3 years of UG), and it was totally fine, just a lot of undergrads (I literally lived 100 feet from the back door of Mulligans).

For my class (2013), basically nobody got Chicago unless they had ties AND were on law review. That seems to have loosened up, as when the next class went through OCI, a few people not from the area got offers. Most everyone was over a 3.5 though, and most on law review. I think that if you have good grades and at least a plausible reason to be in Chicago, you should be fine now.

Great, thanks for taking the time to answer. Any general advice for incoming 1Ls?

For my class (2013), basically nobody got Chicago unless they had ties AND were on law review. That seems to have loosened up, as when the next class went through OCI, a few people not from the area got offers. Most everyone was over a 3.5 though, and most on law review. I think that if you have good grades and at least a plausible reason to be in Chicago, you should be fine now.

Great, thanks for taking the time to answer. Any general advice for incoming 1Ls?

My biggest advice would be to try your best to ignore what most people are doing and just focus on your own thing. Law school is not really that difficult, substantively speaking. It's made a lot more difficult by all the extra stress the environment creates.

Also, when you feel like you're the dumbest person in the class, just know that most everyone feels that way. And if they don't, then they'll probably be humbled by first semester grades.

For my class (2013), basically nobody got Chicago unless they had ties AND were on law review. That seems to have loosened up, as when the next class went through OCI, a few people not from the area got offers. Most everyone was over a 3.5 though, and most on law review. I think that if you have good grades and at least a plausible reason to be in Chicago, you should be fine now.

Great, thanks for taking the time to answer. Any general advice for incoming 1Ls?

My biggest advice would be to try your best to ignore what most people are doing and just focus on your own thing. Law school is not really that difficult, substantively speaking. It's made a lot more difficult by all the extra stress the environment creates.

Also, when you feel like you're the dumbest person in the class, just know that most everyone feels that way. And if they don't, then they'll probably be humbled by first semester grades.

Haha I will certainly try! I'm looking forward to getting started it seems like a great place and community.

For my class (2013), basically nobody got Chicago unless they had ties AND were on law review. That seems to have loosened up, as when the next class went through OCI, a few people not from the area got offers. Most everyone was over a 3.5 though, and most on law review. I think that if you have good grades and at least a plausible reason to be in Chicago, you should be fine now.

Great, thanks for taking the time to answer. Any general advice for incoming 1Ls?

My biggest advice would be to try your best to ignore what most people are doing and just focus on your own thing. Law school is not really that difficult, substantively speaking. It's made a lot more difficult by all the extra stress the environment creates.

Also, when you feel like you're the dumbest person in the class, just know that most everyone feels that way. And if they don't, then they'll probably be humbled by first semester grades.

Haha I will certainly try! I'm looking forward to getting started it seems like a great place and community.

NDLS, and Notre Dame as a whole, is a great place. For the amount of time people spend on TLS bitching about law school, I feel crazy to say that I actually miss law school. Not that I don't like my job, but NDLS was great.

rokiv wrote:Thanks for taking questions.Great, thanks for taking the time to answer. Any general advice for incoming 1Ls?

Get to know your professors. They are the most valuable and special part of an NDLS education. Basically every 1L prof in basically every subject will be one of the most impressive people you will ever meet (Tidmarsh, Smith, Barrett, both Bellias, Kelley, both Garnetts, McKenna off the top of my head).

Parts of it will feel like high school, and that's ok. You've got lots of competent people shoehorned into a small class in a stressful environment. Make a point to be social in the first few weeks, that's when friendship circles form.

As to NDLS specifically, it is prestigious enough to get you to any level of the profession (2 SCOTUS clerks last term) but not prestigious enough to keep you from any level of the profession. Some of your classmates will blow your mind with their effortless brilliance and grace. Some of your classmates will be knuckleheads. Some are brilliant, some are dumb, and a lot will either burn out from working too hard or flame out from never really working. Surround yourself with people who are smart and have their head on straight.

rokiv wrote:Thanks for taking questions.Great, thanks for taking the time to answer. Any general advice for incoming 1Ls?

Get to know your professors. They are the most valuable and special part of an NDLS education. Basically every 1L prof in basically every subject will be one of the most impressive people you will ever meet (Tidmarsh, Smith, Barrett, both Bellias, Kelley, both Garnetts, McKenna off the top of my head).

Parts of it will feel like high school, and that's ok. You've got lots of competent people shoehorned into a small class in a stressful environment. Make a point to be social in the first few weeks, that's when friendship circles form.

As to NDLS specifically, it is prestigious enough to get you to any level of the profession (2 SCOTUS clerks last term) but not prestigious enough to keep you from any level of the profession. Some of your classmates will blow your mind with their effortless brilliance and grace. Some of your classmates will be knuckleheads. Some are brilliant, some are dumb, and a lot will either burn out from working too hard or flame out from never really working. Surround yourself with people who are smart and have their head on straight.

T

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ndirish2010 wrote:Attending any non T14 (any non HYS, for that matter) is a risk. But that doesn't mean it can't be a great experience, and lead to great things if you do well.

This is consistent with almost everything I've read/heard. Was the risk worth it for you?

Absolutely, although it didn't look like it there for a while. I did OCI even though I really didn't want to go the big firm route - I was on law review and that's just what you did. I should have known better. But, as I said above, a bunch of factors led to me getting 9 callbacks and 0 offers from firms. I ended up working at a state AG's office for minimal money 2L summer, but it was a great experience. I landed a federal district clerkship, and now I'm working in conservative/libertarian public interest. I feel very lucky because there are quite few jobs doing what I do. Then just recently I accepted a clerkship with a Seventh Circuit judge to start in September 2016. Things have definitely gone very well since I struck out at OCI, and I am much happier than most of my friends who are in biglaw. That's not to disparage biglaw - they are of course making a lot more money than me, and are quite successful.

Absolutely, although it didn't look like it there for a while. I did OCI even though I really didn't want to go the big firm route - I was on law review and that's just what you did. I should have known better. But, as I said above, a bunch of factors led to me getting 9 callbacks and 0 offers from firms. I ended up working at a state AG's office for minimal money 2L summer, but it was a great experience. I landed a federal district clerkship, and now I'm working in conservative/libertarian public interest. I feel very lucky because there are quite few jobs doing what I do. Then just recently I accepted a clerkship with a Seventh Circuit judge to start in September 2016. Things have definitely gone very well since I struck out at OCI, and I am much happier than most of my friends who are in biglaw. That's not to disparage biglaw - they are of course making a lot more money than me, and are quite successful.[/quote].

Last edited by rokiv on Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.