Thousands from around the globe watched in earnest as former CFO of Infosys, TV Mohandas Pai held a dialogue with The Avatar, His Holiness Paramahamsa Nithyananda.
TV Mohandas Pai raised various issues faced by society today. Paramahamsa Nithyananda offered clear, concise and deeply profound insights, which revealed the simple truths that lie beyond the complexities of human perception. From questions about how to find peace and happiness to why the need for power and what causes conflict in relationships to asking if we are responsible for others’ success, TV Mohandas Pai asked His Holiness many questions that hit the heart of what is important to people and Paramahamsa Nithyananda’s answers reach the inner Being.
ASK THE AVATAR Series: This is the only platform on the planet where the great thinkers of our time delve deep into the issues ailing our society and receive enlighteneed insights directly from an enlightened source, The Avatar His Holiness Paramahamsa Nithyananda.
About TV Mohandas Pai
Mohandas Pai is a Padma Shri Awardee and former CFO and Board Member at Infosys. He is also the co-founder of Akshaya Patra, the world's largest midday meal program, and works actively with government and regulators on policy recommendations and guidelines. Mr Pai has served as the Chairman of the Board of SEBI, and is now a Board Member of the National Stock Exchange in India. He has emerged as one of India's most prolific angel investors. He has helped start over 10 different funds in venture, growth, and public markets. He also leads a private equity fund - Aarin Capital - along with Manipal group CEO Ranjan Pai that invests in life sciences and education companies.
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Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, thank you so much for talking to me. Is very fascinating to be here.

Swamiji - Thank you for being here.

Mohandas Pai - It’s very fascinating to be here, to see so many people who have come to meet you and talk to you. I want to start off this dialogue by asking you a very simple question - how do all of us find peace and happiness in our lives? What is the magic that we need to do, to be happy and to be peaceful within?

Swamiji - Happiness isactually a alchemy process in us, independent of any external happening. We are trying constantly, to achieve happiness in the wrong direction, thinking that only certain permutation, combinations of the external happening can cause happiness in us. It is like a completely misunderstanding the chemistry. If A + B is going to be C, and we go on try to add C + D and reach the A, it is never going to happen. Same way, the alchemy of the happiness, has to be understood as a independent process than the external happenings and permutation, combinations of the external happiness. This itself solves almost 80% of the problem.

Then, building happiness is a separate profession we need to do; like making business. (Mohandas Pai - Oh...) It is unfortunate, we believe just by making business or building our career or building a relationship, happiness is achieved. No. It’s a separate alchemy process. Of course, 1000s of times simpler than building a career and profession. It may be simple, but it is separate process. We need to look in, to the basic understandings which makes that spiritual alchemy process of happiness happen in us. May be looking into that and following that science, happiness can be developed and developing happiness can be the first fundamental foundational requirement, even to develop our business and career and all the other things; because if we develop happiness, peace will be side-effect. Peace itself is not main effect. Peace will be side effect. That will equip us, to handle all the things we need to do, to build our career, profession, relationship and all that. Without building the happiness inside, if we directly start building external things -

1st - Tremendous stress.

2nd - Even after achieving the goal, we suddenly feel whatever we lost in the path is too much, to reach this result. So that leads to frustration. I call it - Depression of Success.(Mohandas Pai - Oh...) Successful, but whatever we gave up, looks too much of...too much we gave up, to achieve this. After achieving that only we understand, “I think this may not be that worthy”. So building happiness is an independent science, alchemy, which every individual need to do, before even beginning the life. If we missed, at least now.

(4:01)

Mohandas Pai- Swamiji, in our lives, we are subject to so many external rules. We are told to behave in a particular manner, to live in a particular manner, to eat in a particular manner. Now do we have command over our own lives? Do we have the ability and the right to decide, what is good for us, as we seek happiness and peace in our lives?

Swamiji -Whoever does not understand the context is bound by the rule. Whoever understands the context is empowered by the rule.(Mohandas Pai - Oh...) Any rule. Whether it’s a traffic rule or dressing rule or eating rule, any behavior, any rule, if we do not know the context, why it is formulated, that will be binding us. If we know, why it is formulated, 2 thing will happen -

One - Even while you follow, you will not feel you are bound. You will not be feeling bound if you stop in the red signal in the traffic rule if you know the context. While you were following, you will not feel bound.

Second - All the grey area will be your freedom.

The freedom which comes by knowing the context is two end – One, even while you are following, you will not be bound. Second, all the grey area is your freedom. But when we don’t know the context, even while you are following, we will feel we are a slaves and we do not know the grey area and we do not have the freedom or command over the grey area. At end of the day, even Powers, is nothing but knowing the grey area of the Cosmic rules. When we know the context, context of the Cosmic rules is Dharma, when we know the Dharma, even if you follow the rules, you will not feel bound and because you know the grey area, you know where to play. Knowing where you can play and where you need to obey, itself is a Power.

(6:16)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, you know all of us want power in our lives, we want control, we want wealth, we want people to listen to us and this need for power in all human beings, is the root cause of much conflict, because this power is exhilarating, how do we overcome this need for power within our souls, within our body, within our lives?

Swamiji – See first, when we are not able to handle ourself, control ourself, when we are not able to come to relationship with ourself, we are trying to do this to others. For example, when you are not able to handle….when we are not able to handle ourself, if we are trying to behave like giving up on us, we will give up on the society. If we are trying to behave like controlling us, we will control the society. How we feel with ourself, the same way only we will feel with the world. If somebody is trying to control others and feel, controlling others give them joy, there is a deep vacuum in them that they are not able to control themself. So they are struggling in controlling themself. When we are struggling to control ourself, we will also be struggling to control the world.

If we come to completion with ourselves knowing clearly, ‘this all can be controlled’. For example my eating habit, sleeping habit, my digestion, all this can be controlled but my blood circulation, my breathing, all this cannot be controlled, that is actually good for me. When we know, ‘I myself put something in automatic gear, for my own benefit’, so this ‘what I put in automatic gear is not binding me, it is actually some of the responsibilities off from me, which I decided’. For example, our breathing pattern, our blood circulation, we put all of them into automatic, by us, it is our decision, we put them into automatic so that we can attend to something else. End of the day, coming to the Source of everything, Context, and understanding everything, we are responsible, makes 1000s of things clear.

When we start getting complete with ourself, we will manifest the same completion with others. When we are not able to control ourself, we will try to control us and control others. When we are not able to control ourself and we give up on us, we will give up on us and give up on others. Everything, the way we behave whether in a traffic signal or in our career or in our relationship, everything finally boils down to – ‘how we cognize us, how we behave with ourselves’. Our idea about us is the Source from which all this manifest. Even the need for the Power, is not always going to lead to a completion space or happiness space, we know!

(Mohandas Pai - we know..)

Swamiji – We know!

(Mohandas Pai - Yes..we know...)

Swamiji – But still!

(Mohandas Pai - we do it…we still we do it...)

Swamiji – I should say it’s a blind spot.

(Mohandas Pai - blind spot…)

Swamiji – We know our goal is not going to make us feel the way we want. See we want certain feeling at the end of the goal and we want something as the goal, even though we know this feeling and that goal is not going to come together, sometimes we just start travelling….towards any one direction. So I should say, it is more or less our own blind spots based on our blind spots inside us.

(10:40)

Mohandas Pai - Inside us but Swamiji, we live in a society, now we have relationships. We are children of a parent, we got friends, we marry, we are spouses, we have children, we have colleagues, we have Gurus. Now this need to find peace within. How does it correlate with the need to have relationships, can you let relationships dominate your life, how should two people deal with each other when they live together, they are part of a family?

Swamiji - With whoever we live, if we are remembering somebody or seeing somebody more than thrice a day, we are responsible for how they feel about us.

(Mohandas Pai - we are responsible…)

Swamiji – Yes! Sure, because they are part of us. See, when you cognize everything, for example, if you cognize your peace, can you exclude your spouse and kids and cognize your peace?

(Mohandas Pai - No…)

Swamiji – If you cognize your happiness, can you exclude them and cognize your happiness?

(Mohandas Pai - No…)

Swamiji – So if somebody is part of your cognition, they are part of you.

(Mohandas Pai - We are all together…)

Swamiji – They are part of you...us!

(Mohandas Pai – They are part of us)

Swamiji – Us! Whoever is part of you, when you cognize your fears, can you exclude them and calculate your fears? No. Something happens to them is also your fear.

(Mohandas Pai - Yes…)

Swamiji – When you cognize about your joy, can you exclude them and cognize?

(Mohandas Pai - No…)

Swamiji – So, whoever is part of your fear, your joy, your pleasure, your pain, everything happening to you, is part of you, so how you feel with them, you feel about them, how they feel about you, for that you are responsible. Unfortunately, we always think,” Why should I be responsible for they think about me?”

(Mohandas Pai - Yes…)

Swamiji – which is see...you don’t need to be responsible for the person who goes in the street, passerby. How he feels about you, you are not responsible. You don’t need to be.

(Mohandas Pai - Yes…)

Swamiji – Because he is not part of your life.

(Mohandas Pai - Yes…)

Swamiji – But everyone who is part of your life, now all titles you’ve described: spouse, son, father, daughter, Guru, all these relationships are not passerby people, people who walk in the street. They are part of your very cognition. In the cognition if they are part, how can you not be responsible for how they hold you or perceive you? The biggest blind spot all of us have is whoever is part of our thinking system….see for example when you visualize what is your joy - whoever is part of them, part of that visualization, when you visualize what is your fear - whoever is part of that visualization, when you visualize what is your happiness - whoever is part of that visualization - we are not even taking responsibility for what they think about us or how they hold us or how they perceive us!! Taking responsibility for everyone who is part of our cognition, how they feel about us, how they hold us, how they expect us - bringing Completion in that, means if they are holding us in some way, expecting us to be something - either you make them understand that expectation is not going to become real or if you are very sure you are going it into reality, giving it as a commitment and removing the insecurity from them. This is what I call Completion. Either you remove that expectation. The way they hold you or you make it as very vocal, oral, clear cut commitment and you stand by it. This removes, I can say 99% of the incompletions.

(14:58)

Mohandas Pai – But Swamiji, why is there conflict in families between 2 people. (Swamiji - What I am saying…) Between spouses, why do people break up, don’t live happily, how to handle conflict and what causes this conflict?

Swamiji - Basically, you keep somebody as part of your cognition, but you are not ready to take the responsibility for how they expect you. See when….for example when you visualize….when somebody visualizes their joy, if they do not keep their spouse and children in that joy frame, then they don’t have to be responsible. Ifthey visualize fear, in that fear frame if something happening to their child, their spouse, is not there in that frame, then he doesn’t need to bother about what they think about him or how they hold him. When your joy frame, greed frame, life frames, has all of them as part of it, then we are responsible for how they hold us, what we stand for them, what is our commitments and relationships, what is our understandings and said-unsaid agreements. Not leaving any grey area, with the people who are in your life frame, is relationship.

(16:20)

Mohandas Pai - But Swamiji, this is very fascinating. Then, how do we relate to the rest of society? (Swamiji - What I am saying….Yes...) How….What is the obligation to every creature (Swamiji - Yes, yes…..) on this Planet, (Swamiji - So what I am saying…) and everybody else?

Swamiji - Our immediate life frame, whoever is, may be 25 people for a common man. A bigger family person, may have 100 people in that frame. When we work with this 100 people or 25 people, people who are in our life frame and bring completion, we will learn the knack of keeping grey area zero. What is your expectation of me and what is my commitment to you? what is our relationship?, defining it and living it, what I call Integrity. When we work with this 100 people, we know very clearly how to work with the larger group.

See the Pindanda, Pindanda is our body. Our body related, wherever our body moves, this 100 people are the people who are in the part of the life, where this body moves. If we bring completion with this group then where our mind moves, means people are influenced by our thought currents, who are trying to influence our thought currents, we know how to bring completion with them. Then the larger society. Ultimately the whole Universe is us. If we can master this simple completion with the Pindanda, means people who are in our cognition. As I said, if you are remembering thrice, or seeing them thrice a day, they are part of you. They are part of your inner frame, life frame. Whether your joy, your pain, your bliss, your anxiety, our depression or our excitement, everything is dependent on them. The people who are in the inner frame, if we don’t care about them, they can collapse our joy in 2 second. One phone call is enough.

(Mohandas Pai - Yes, yes...that’s true…yes...)

Swamiji – Understand. So then we are responsible. Every human being, should start ironing out the relationships, especially people who are...people who are in his life frame. In his life frame, this ironing out, this completion, the lowest grey area, will bring tremendous joy, security in relationships among the Beings. This will teach an individual, how to be the larger group.

(19:05)

Mohandas Pai - But Swamiji, if we have to find inner peace, we need to be happy and we have so many obligations to everybody, where is the time for ourselves? (Swamiji - I am telling you…) How do we... How do we reconcile this need to get along in the life frame, in the personal life frame, in the societal life frame, with our own space as individual?

Swamiji - Happiness is not always about the time. See now you made the 2 statement – First, you made a statement, Time. Second, you made a statement, Space. If we are involved with everyone, where is the time? Then you made a statement - Where is our space? Actually our space is independent of the time. If our space is evolved, 24 hours we will be happy.(Mohandas Pai - Oh….) The time we are spending...you see, you feel the time you are spending on others, where is time for me? Because you do not understand….we do not understand, all so called...all the others are in our frame. (Mohandas Pai - Oh…)See end of the day, our whole frame need to be happy for us to be happy, because that is what we call happiness.

Mohandas Pai - It is an extension of our own persona.

Swamiji - You see what...when we close our eyes and visualize what is happiness. We say, “My son will be very happily sitting next to me”, “ My spouse will be very happily talking to me”, “We will all be there somewhere in the vacation”, whatever, whatever, you visualize, for that frame to become reality, you need to work in every person involved in that frame. (MohandasPai - Yes….) So how can you call that as spending time on others? (MohandasPai - Yes…)End of the day, the frame we are trying to make it as happiness, we need to take the responsibility for the whole and working on all the people who are involved in that frame, has to be only addressed as ‘working on us’ not ‘giving time for others’. (Mohandas Pai - Ah, okay…) Because see, or we should have a frame, “I’ll be all alone sitting in Himalayas, alone cave, that is my joy”. If we have that as a frame, then no problem. (Mohandas Pai - No problem…) No problem, we don’t need to work on anybody. We don’t need to bother about anybody’s happiness. What is our frame of happiness? (Mohandas Pai - we define it…) That we define. So when we define...when we define our happiness, we have all the people inside, but when we need to work, we think we should...we should be working only on us not on others, that’s the blind spot. (Mohandas Pai - That’s the blind spot..) That’s the blind spot.

(21:48)

Mohandas Pai - What is your life frame?

Swamiji - So…. Let me...let me….let me be very honest. With all My integrity, I tell you, when I look in and My joy or My bliss, My bliss life frame, I do not see, even me in that. (Mohandas Pai - Oh…) Let me just….let me explain. When I look in and see, even this body is not in that frame, so what goes on to this body also, is not going to affect My joy frame. (Mohandas Pai - Oh…) My joy frame is such a permanent bolted in My consciousness, all I need is even just a remembrance of My existence, for Me to be in joy frame. For example, for some years This Body will function, then some years after that, It may not function, It may stop functioning, but that is no way stopping My joy frame because even This is not part of My joy frame. (Mohandas Pai - I understand, yes…) Then you may ask, “Then what for I am working?” (MohandasPai - Yes…) I am working casually, whoever comes in front of me, I will try to make them joyful and I will be….I will be working with all my integrity, but I am not bothered if they don’t become joyful. (Mohandas Pai - Oh…) Because I don’t feel even This is inside My life frame. So even This is an extra because even This body is an extra, all, everyone else is extra.

Whenever we work for somebody’s happiness, who is not in our life frame is Service. If we are working for the people, who are in our life frame, for their happiness - it is responsibility, duty and if we are not doing that we are not even being responsible, we are irresponsible. If we are working for the happiness of the people who are out of our life frame, that is Service.

(24:29)

Mohandas Pai - Okay. But Swamiji, there is a another big question that comes up - Why there is so much of conflict in the world when at the end of it, Mortality is the only reality in life. We are born and over a period of time, the body disappears, we go away. But why there is so much conflict? (Swamiji - I should say….) When we know that everything ends somewhere.

Swamiji - I should say, all conflicts is the blind spots of the individuals fighting, showing only others blind spots without showing their own blind spots. For example, there is A and B. A has blind spots. B has blind spots. If A sees his own blind spots, it will lead to completion. If he sees only the B’s blind spots, it leads to conflict. All conflict, all conflict is nothing but inability to see our blind spots and too much of Third eye on other’s blind spots. See when it comes to seeing other’s blind spots, we use 3 eye, 4 eye, all eyes. When it comes to seeing our blind spot, we don’t even use 2 eyes. (MohandasPai - 2 eyes…) End of the day all conflicts, whether it is a conflict in level of the home, “Should we have coffee or tea, should we have pizza or burger, idli or dosa”, starting from there, “Should we have this party or that party or this economic policy or that economic policy, capitalism or communism”, whatever, to that level, everything is nothing but inability to see the individual blind spot or collective blind spot.

For example, if all….for example, I have a blind spot, that I don’t want to work, but I feel everything exist, it should be shared to everyone, even though I have not worked for it. So it is individual blind spot. Many individual who have this same blind spot gather together and start Communism. Many individuals, who have the same blind spot, they just help each other, support each other, they feel so comfortable with each other and then they decide, ‘Come on, let’s all start a group.’

So whether it is a individual level or social level or the country level or even in the Universal level, or the Cosmic level, every level we try to take advantage of what we have not earned and we try to keep that as a blind spot, without looking. That is what leads to conflicts. Whether it is the… it is available resources or manmade resources like money, the concept of money or the natural resources like water or land or minerals, whatever, whatever, whatever, end of the day, not seeing our own blind spot creates incompletion, and not only not completing it, and seeing other’s blind spot create conflicts and many people of this level ganging up, creates communism.

(28:09)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, this raises now….Swamiji, this raises now another important question - Why are some people so successful and many people are not so successful? Is it a lack of ambition, lack of energy, lack of self-realization? Why does success come to…..

Swamiji - I should say, there is no Being on the Planet Earth, which lacks ambition. Ambition is programmed in DNA. (Mohandas Pai - In the DNA…) DNA. It is responsibility which need to be cultivated.

(Mohandas Pai - responsibility…)Ambition is animalistic. Responsibility is human.(MohandasPai - Ambition is animalistic…) Animalistic. By your very existence, you are ambitious. Only then you can grow from fish to tortoise, tortoise to pig and even that evolution, even the evolution happens because of ambition. Ambition is in our very DNA. There is nobody which can say, “I don’t have ambition”. People come and tell me, “Oh, I don’t want money Swamiji, I am not interested in it”. I said if it comes in lottery for billion dollar, “Oh, then okay, Swamiji”. Then it means what? I am not ready to work for money, not that I am not interested in money.

(Mohandas Pai - You have an interest…)

So ambition is a nature, animalistic. It is responsibility that decides success.

(29:36)

Mohandas Pai - And if a man...if a person is successful, what is his obligation to his fellow human beings, to the rest of the world?

Swamiji - What I am saying, whoever was in the frame when he was not successful, whoever was in the frame when he was moving towards successful, whoever is in the frame after his success, he is obligated to all of them.

(Mohandas Pai - He is obligated to all of them…)

Swamiji – To all of them. It is his duty.

(Mohandas Pai - It is his duty?....)

Swamiji –Beyond the frame, it is his service.

(Mohandas Pai - And there is a duty to perform service…)

Swamiji – Yes. No, no, I should say, let me be very straight. Whoever is involved in the frame when he was not successful, when you are working towards successful, when he is successful, that is his Dharma. He has to be responsible for all of them in the frame

(Mohandas Pai - Yes, yes…)

Swamiji – Beyond that is a Punya.

(Mohandas Pai - It is Punya…)

Swamiji – If he goes beyond the frame, and does good who is not involved in his success, that is punya, that is service.

(Mohandas Pai - is Punya required? Why should we have Punya?..)

Swamiji – I should say Hindu tradition expects Punya also to be a part of the success.

(Mohandas Pai - Punya to be a part of the success…)

Swamiji – Part of the success. You see, as the Shastra Pramana, if I refer to Hindu tradition, Agamas insist on us serving beyond our frame. Agama insist not only people who are in your frame but it says very clearly, the first responsibility and priority is people who are in the frame, people who have been part of your life, your frame, when you were not a success or when you are working for a success or after you become successful; they only become your first priority. But they recommend always you don’t stop there because…. when you start taking responsibility for all the people within your frame you develop an infrastructure and tool for taking responsibility. Let it not be unused after you complete everyone who are in your frame.

See even serving you need to develop certain infrastructure. If you developed it for all the people, who are part of your success, then after that why should that infrastructure just be keeping quiet? (Mohandas Pai - Yes…) Wear and tear. Let it be put for the people who are outside the frame. That is called Punya.

So from Shastras, if I go back to Hinduism, the source of Hinduism, Hinduism insists on Punya. (Mohandas Pai - On Punya…) On Punya. It insists you do that. Maybe I should say that Punya keep lots of people not entering into immoral and wrong way of hurting the principle on which we built our wealth. For example if we don’t care about the society at all, who are outside our frame, and they are deprived, they may not be sitting and waiting for all the Dharma analysis and all that. They will just come and throw a stone and steal what we have. (Mohandas Pai - Take away….yes..) So for that not to happen, this kind of a balance helps in a big way.

(32:57)

Mohandas Pai - Then Swamiji what is the role of Dharma in our life? What is Dharma? How do you define Dharma? And how did it come into being, how does it exist, how should we look at Dharma in our day to day life, in our extended life?

Swamiji - See if I have to give a literal meaning of the word Dharma, I should say natural law of life, that’s the literal meaning. If I have to give my interpretation in every level an individual’s Dharma is…. it’s My interpretation I wanedt to keep these 2 separate. The Shastras definition of Dharma is natural law of life. That is the literal meaning. If I have to apply that in our day to day life, in a individual level, the individual’s Dharma is understanding the self, world and God. That understanding is the first Dharma. With this understanding he starts making decisions in the world. “How I should behave with people who are near to me, how I should behave with the people who are far away from me, how I should behave with people who have a conflict of interest. All this cognitions, decisions, he comes to, based on what he thinks as himself, and world, and God – Jeeva, Jagat, Ishvara. Understanding this three is a basic Dharma of an individual.

Then the Dharma comes, means, next, next level - what is our Dharma towards the society, what is our Dharma towards the larger country, what is our Dharma to our own clan?

For examples, doctors. Doctors have Dharma to the doctor’s clan. Engineers have Dharma to the engineer’s clan. Lawyers have Dharma to the lawyer’s clan. Entrepreneurs have Dharma to the entrepreneur’s clan. All that comes next, next, next. But whole this questions, all these understandings of Dharma and questions related to Dharma, can be answered by one formula - what is the idea I have about me, what is the idea I have about the world, what is the idea I have about God.Me, playing temporarily in the world, want to be permanently resting in God is my Dharma, for that how I should behave with the world, how I should behave with me, how I should behave with God, should be the scale with which we measure, at every moment how we should behave.

(35:56)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, we learn in the Epics, that when Dharma is overtaken by Adharma, Avatars come. We get a new being who comes and restores the balance. How can this balance differ and become one sided, Adharma getting more than Dharma, how can it happen when people are in a constant move to live as per Dharma?

Swamiji - Natural evolution happening, to the next, next, next level is the natural law of life. We not allowing that natural evolution in our day to day life is called Patterns. (Mohandas Pai - Oh….) For example, naturally in this age this should be my ambition. When you are young, if you are not liberal we don’t have heart. After 40, still if you are liberal you don’t have brain. No these are all the natural evolutions should be happening to us.

(Mohandas Pai - Yah, you become conservative…)

Swamiji – It should be happening to us. If we are not letting the natural evolutions happening to us, it is called Patterns.Too many people are not letting the natural evolution to happen is the Cosmic Pattern.Whenever an individual is stuck with the individual pattern, to break that pattern and liberate him, Guru appears in life. Whenever the Universe is stuck with a Universal pattern, to break that and liberate Universe, an Incarnation appears.

Too many people, I should tell you, during Mahabharata time, too many people are stuck in a pattern called trying to grab without working for it. (Mohandas Pai - Trying to grab…) Extreme consumerism. “Anything I see is mine. I do not need to work for it”. The extreme consumerism was becoming a mainstream thought current and it was becoming a strong pattern, where the production has dropped more than 90% but the need and the demand and the greed and the grabbing, in any method is becoming lifestyle. So to break that pattern and reduce the load on the Planet, comes Krishna. If you see, the whole Mahabharata war, the main thought current, ‘trying to have without working for it’.

(Mohandas Pai - more and more, trying to get more and more…)

Swamiji – Trying to have without taking responsibility for that. It is not that, who whether Dharmaraja rules or Duryodhana rules, what is there? But the problem is, Dharmaraja is ready to take the responsibility for the people, he is ready to set that trend as a model, so many people also follow that model. With Duryodhana, when he is not ready to set that trend, Krishna knows if Duryodhana becomes a king, Duryodhana type of people only will become a model.

(Mohandas Pai - Oh…)

Swamiji – So breaking the wrong models, setting the right trend is the Incarnation’s job. Breaking the wrong patterns, setting the right trend, is the job of an Incarnation. When it becomes too much, for example, one small example I can give - 100 people are living in a community, 80 people are very responsible, 20 people are not responsible. We can enjoy their irresponsibility as cuteness. ‘See so cute from morning till night he just sits eats and sleeps, does not do anything. Okay’. But if that becomes 80, it is no more cute.

(Mohandas Pai - It becomes the majority…)

Swamiji – It becomes, not only that, weight. Weight. So when it becomes weight and even after it becomes weight and they are not ready to change that pattern, it becomes a strong thought current. Then no other way, either the pattern or the persons who are not ready to give up that pattern, need to be eliminated. (Mohandas Pai - Eliminated?...) Eliminated. That thought current and the model need to be eliminated. Otherwise Planet Earth, Planet Earth cannot survive. (Mohandas Pai – So justify violence..) No, no, no, no, please let me be very clear, let me be clear, come to the very clearly. I should look upon, it should not be looked upon as violence, it should be looked upon as a surgery.

(Mohandas Pai - Surgery, but who decides?...)

Swamiji – Yes that is what, let me look at that. The outcome of after what happens decides, whether it was a surgery or violence.

(Mohandas Pai - Oh…)

Swamiji – After effect of the Krishna, has decided what Krishna did is a surgery. So it’s only the after effect we can label it, whether it was a surgery or violence.

(Mohandas Pai - But who decides …?????)

Swamiji – No, let me be very clear, in Krishna’s whole Mahabharata and everything also, he gave enough of long rope. He tried his best. It’s not that he did not try. He tried his best and even after that see many of those people who are killed in the war, they themself have openly declared, that it is better to die than to give up this pattern.

(Mohandas Pai - Oh, yes, they refuse to change….)

Whether it is Duryodhana, or Karna, or Bhishma, or Drona, all of them, what they finally declare, it is better to die because they know there is death waiting. Death become a better choice for them than transformation. Only they were eliminated. End of the day, they chose that. When they chose that, how can this be violence?

( Mohandas Pai - This can’t be violence…)

Swamiji – I should say, it is more or less mass suicide. See the whole Akshauhini Sena, including Bhishma, Drona, Karna, everyone who is standing in Duryodhanas side, all of them known Krishna is an Incarnation. (Mohandas Pai - And all of them know, they are in the wrong…)All of them know they are in the wrong side. (Mohandas Pai - All of them know the result..)All of them know they can’t win. (Mohandas Pai - They can’t win…) They can’t win against Krishna they know.

(Mohandas Pai - Yet why do they do it?...)

Swamiji – That means, it is a suicide not violence. It should be very clear it’s a suicide not violence. End of the day, because all of them know that they can’t win over the Krishna. You think Bhishma had a courage that he can win over the Krishna?

(Mohandas Pai - No…)He knows he is going to fall.

(Mohandas Pai - Yes…) and that is why he kept Karna as a reservation.

(Mohandas Pai - Yes…)

Swamiji – He tells Duryodhana, when I fall, you need a best commander that is why I am keeping Karna. I abused Karna, so he will not pick up weapon, under me; so you have a safety. See Bhishma abuses Karna. So Karna says I will not pick up weapon as long as Bhishma is alive. Then Duryodhana, he calls Duryodhana and tells I am keeping him as your reserve. A reserve for your security. If I am gone he will be there for you. (Mohandas Pai - Yes…) So don’t think I have done something wrong. I have done some good for you. (Mohandas Pai - Yes…) It means what he knows he’s going to fall. You think Drona had the confidence that he will not fall in front of Krishna? He was very clear. But he was very clear ‘I will work because I ate’. So as my integrity to what I ate, I’ll do it. So end of the day, all of them, it is a suicide.

(44:22)

Mohandas Pai - Yes. Swamiji, one big question comes, you know you spoke about God, why is this feeling in society around the world - my God is better than your God, and why this conflict about God? Who is this God and what is this God that so many people say my God is better than your God, your God is a lesser God, somebody is children are lesser God, and they all fight and throughout human society, more death and conflicts have occurred because of this fight between Gods, what is this? What is this God?

Swamiji - End of the day to tell you honestly, my God is the supreme, is nothing but saying I am supreme.

Mohandas Pai - I am supreme…God is an alibi

Swamiji - See our own ego we project it on God. God is just our projection. What we want to tell the world, it’ll be too obvious if we tell directly , I am superior, then immediately he'll come for a war. I don’t have time for immediate war. So what to do? How to declare this in a very diplomatic way? In a very diplomatic way, trying to declare, this is what is, my God is superior. The whole, if you analyze thoroughly the whole Hindu tradition, the beauty is, the whole, whether it’s Upanishads, Shaivism, Vaishnavism, or the Shakta, or Ganapatya, all the Sampradayas and Paramaparas, they give importance to Ishta Nishta, means your God is the ultimate, and from that all the energies come out, but you do not have any right to disturb somebody else feeling their Ishta is the highest. The Ishta Nishta is never allowed to become fanaticism.

See the Ishta Nishta, for example, if it is a Shiva temple, Shiva will be ultimate. All the believers of Shiva will be worshiping him and no doubt. In Jagannath temple, Shiva is the guardian. (Mohandas Pai - Guardian…Yes, yes.) Yes, if you see Brahma and Shiva both of them stand outside as guardian. In Tiruvanamalai temple Brahma searches the Shiva’s head and Vishnu searches the Shiva’s feet. The Ishta Nishta and the universality of the supreme principle both co-existed in Hindu Sampradayas. If you see our Ishta Nishta was never allowed to become fanaticism. I should, if I go into more details and Shastra Pramanas, it is very clearly declared, you have all the right to see your Ishta as the source of all the Gods and Goddesses, but you do not have a right to put this as the ultimate truth on others.

( Mohandas Pai - On others…So it is very individualistic...)

Swamiji - It is very clear. No, we call it subjective truth.

(Mohandas Pai - subjective truth…)

Swamiji - It’s a truth for the subject. It’s a subjective truth. and ultimately all Sampradayas including Shaiva, Vaishnava, Shakta, all Sampradayas agree Divine is beyond any forms. It is for our devotion he assumes the form, like a water has no solid form but when the cool breeze happens on the water it takes the shape of ice. So our devotion gives this form. Behind this the source has no form. Source is beyond form, our devotion gives this form. Even the greatest devotee knows the form with which he is worshipping will lose its form when he loses his form. See, as long as I have this form, I need a form, so I relate with it. At one point both the forms will merge into the source. We called this Jnanavarishta Bhakti. If you see even a common villager in Hindu tradition will have this Jnanavarishta Bhakti. If you see this you will see in his house many Gods in his puja room. I should say the future of the humanity is not for one God religions, it is for either many God or all God religions.

Mohandas Pai - All God religions, so there will be no conflict…)

Swamiji - Not only there can be no conflict, there can be even understanding, higher understandings evolving. Not only no conflicts there is something called higher understandings, means, each of the God is infinitely powerful, potential, and this infinity is not bound by only one. Infinite infinities. See, even the one God religions also accept infinity of that one God, infinity of the one God is a mentally retarded theory. How can infinity be only one? ( Mohandas Pai - Infinite…..) So oneness only can be infinity, not one. (Mohandas Pai - Yes…) So infinity of one is a self-conflict mentally retarded theory. What I am saying, infinity is the peak conception, visualization, fantasy of logic, length. When somebody’s logic is very, very deep and broad the highest he can grasp is infinity. Unfortunately his whole energy sucked by the intellect, he has grasped the infinity but his heart is left with no energy that is why he did not grasp the infinity is infinity, not one. (Mohandas Pai - Not one…)When we don’t have heart only head, we consume infinity only one. When we have enough head and enough heart, we understand infinity infinity.

(51:22)

Mohandas Pai - But Swamiji it raises the very important question - Is there a God at all? Or we have created a God just to be happy, to find certainty in our lives?

Swamiji - For example, surely there is a higher independent intelligence, intelligence which generates, operates, destroys, deludes, liberates. There is the independent intelligent force, no doubt. Sure. Independent intelligent force available, no doubt. The many ideas of Gods with which we play, those ideas may be created by us and we are playing with it. God exists, not as we define it. (Mohandas Pai - God exists, but not as we define…) But not as we define it.

Mohandas Pai - But it is such a concept, is very difficult for a human mind to understand, we all want to see something….

Swamiji - No I should say, I should say, it is very easy for human mind to understand, very difficult for the people who have not yet evolved to be a human being but in the human frame to understand.

Mohandas Pai - Does Avatar have a God? or is Avatar a manifestation of God?...

Swamiji - I should say Avatar is the Vyakta component means manifest component of the unmanifest God. (Mohandas Pai - the unmanifest God…) See, Avatar is the statement of God. God is the state of Avatar.

Mohandas Pai - Explain to us Swamiji….

Swamiji - Avatar is the statement of God, manifest of unmanifest. God is the unmanifest of the manifest.

Mohandas Pai - Essentially saying that there is a force above us which is all pervading….

Swamiji - Yes, there is a force. I should say not above us, above us. The above us gives a different context, above us means, JJJ you see what is unmanifest in all of us. I should say not even this, it is this way or this way. (Mohandas Pai - That means everywhere, it is everything…) It is, when I say above us, it becomes like this or I should say the air we are all breathing, the space we are all in, has independent life. The source of that life is God. There is a source and it is intelligence. It is not just power, automated mechanism or automatic mass software, like how they try to show in the matrix movie, no. It is not a large automated matrix, no. It is an independent intelligence which can make decisions, which can intervene. (Mohandas Pai - very large decisions…) What I am saying not only large decisions, it can make the decisions as big as moving the Planet Earth closer to Sun or far away to Sun and it can make decisions as simple as removing one small rudraksha from this bead. It is capable of micro management and macro management.

(55:07)

Mohandas Pai - If it’s capable of micromanagement, what is our role as human beings? Are we all kutputlis.... are we all puppets, in a big puppet show where somebody’s doing a superior power or do we have a right to decide and do things for ourselves?

Swamiji - Aah yes, now let me, first of all, even in puppet show, puppet is not completely controlled. (Mohandas Pai - Puppet is not controlled…) Yes! The bit in the puppet show, if it is a 8 bit only the 8 bit is controlled, not this bit, not this bit. Even in puppet show puppets are not completely controlled. So in our life also we are not completely controlled and we are not completely free. There is certain amount, where we have a freedom. For example everything affects our life we have a freedom to decide. Full freedom. Everything affects others life we do not have a freedom because others goodness is involved in it. (Mohandas Pai - So everything that affects everybody, we don’t have the freedom…) We don’t have freedom. Everything affects our life if you sit and list out those things, all of them we have a complete control, complete freedom.

It’s like, cow is tied with a 2 rope 2 meter rope length. Within that 2 meter he can sit, stand, cross, do whatever he wants. Within that 2 meter length if he behaves properly the rope can become 10 meter or liberated once for all. So within the 2 meter how he behaves, decides the length of the rope or the liberation. Same way, we are all empowered with certain freedom. Within that freedom how much of responsibility with which we behave that decides whether our freedom length is going to increase or decrease or once for all free. When somebody establishes his track record his freedom is only going to do good to others, suddenly you will see he is completely free. All the resources are at his disposal.

(Mohandas Pai - Everything comes to him…)

Swamiji - Everything comes to him. All the things are under his disposal. And there is no…. he doesn’t feel suffocated by not having money, time, intelligence, energy, resources, anything which he wants to achieve. I am seeing very clearly, I tell you from My own experience. Whatever I want to do, I am seeing very clearly, everything automatically aligns. I just have to see and enjoy the whole fun. If a power is manifesting in This Body I am already seeing the structure to reach this power to the world also gets assembled. Along with this manifestation that structure also manifests. So I am very clear, there is a very powerful intelligence operating and that does not mean I am sleeping. I am participating actively only to enjoy.

(58:29)

Mohandas Pai - Only to enjoy that. Swamiji, so many people are listening to you, they came here to talk to you, what is motivating them, what is compelling them to come here? What is attracting them to come here? What is making them come thousands of km from all over the world?

Swamiji - Don’t you think it is reasonable to ask this question to them and then to me? You understand? This question I think they should answer.

(58:58)

Mohandas Pai - What are the core values of Sanatana Dharma? Sanatana Dharma is an open architecture like the Balaji says it’s not a closed proprietary system, it’s an open architecture and being an open architecture it is got multiple manifestation, multiple interpretation, multiple use and nobody yet knows what it is. Yet it sustains, it promotes, it liberates it goes on and is almost eternal. So what are the core values of this Sanatana Dharma?

Swamiji - If I have to put the whole thing in nutshell, the essence of Sanatana Hindu Dharma. See, we all accept the Vedas are the introductory literature of Sanatana Dharma. If I have to talk from the context of the Vedas, the Shastra Pramana, I should say basic conflict free, exciting, blissful life, with the understanding of Jeeva, Ishwara, Jagat is Sanatana Hindu Dharma. Conflict free exciting blissful life with understanding of Self, World, God, Jeeva, Jagat, Ishwara. With this understanding living blissfully is Sanatana Hindu Dharma. Actually conflict free and blissful is one and the same, I should say. Blissful life with understanding of these three is what I call Sanatana Hindu Dharma. Now comes the supplementary answers like the Karma theory.

What is actually Karma theory?Karma theory is nothing but establishing a right cognition between us and the World and the God.

What is end of the day, reincarnation theory? Establishing the right cognition about us, World and the God.

All the core values of Sanatana Hindu Dharma, whether it is Ahimsa or Satya or Asteya or Aparigraha, yoga, kriya, everything if you see, it boils down to this one core bringing understanding between Jeeva, Ishvara, Jagat and bringing bliss between these three. Bringing bliss with this understanding of these three is the essence of Sanatana Hindu Dharma. Living happily with Jagat, with Ishwara, is all Sanatana Hindu Dharma.

(1:01:49)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, does it mean that a simple person who’s got a simple let’s say view of life and a highly evolved person who’s got a very different view of life, all of them can live happily within the same context, or we have to find our own self- realization to be truly happen? Is ignorance also happiness?

Swamiji - One thing, one thing, you see….. no see, ignorance is happiness as long as it is not hit. For example,

(Mohandas Pai - As long as it is ?

Swamiji - As long as it is not hit. Let me give you an example. In India many of the compounders become doctors; like if they work with a doctor for 5 years they see, ‘Oh stomach pain, yellow tablet. Knee pain, green tablet and headache, black tablet.’ He will be a successful doctor as long as the pharmaceutical companies don’t change the color. Ignorance is bliss as long as the context does not changed.

(Mohandas Pai – If the context becomes complex, you get stuck…)

Swamiji - So ignorance is bliss if you don’t change yourcity, if you don’t change your street, if you don’t change your life in any way, same people, and people also don’t change.

(Mohandas Pai - But things change…)

Swamiji - Then ignorance cannot be bliss. So the so called simplicity cuteness associated with the simplicity cannot be the permanent solution.

(Mohandas Pai - Human beings have a higher role…)

Swamiji - See, the simplicity which comes even after the higher evolvement is called Integrity. So integrity is the solution, not the simplicity, because simplicity is more or less like a compounder becoming doctor.

(Mohandas Pai - So are you saying that you must go above an animal existence to find the true meaning of existence as human beings, because we have a mind….)

Swamiji - Yes, we should evolve higher than the mind. (Mohandas Pai - Higher than the mind…) Higher than the mind, I call it completion. Completion, where our depth radiates what we are independent and irrelevant to the mood swings we go through.Our core stands by what we are independent of the mood swings we go through. Whether up or down mood swings come or go, good or bad, right or wrong, accepted or rejected, whatever ,whatever, whatever, the core depth standing to its integrity and constantly ready to evolve only in the line of integrity; not by this ups and downs. If this ups and downs starts guiding, the person is called Powerless. If his integrity is only his guiding force, he is called powerful.

(1:04:49)

Mohandas Pai - Why do you have a limited life, is it the body by necessity has a limited life?

Swamiji - Body or whatever I am using has no limited life. I am seeing very clearly, for example This Body is going to be operating, functioning, for 126 years.

(Mohandas Pai - 126 years…)

Swamiji - Yes 126 years, I am going to be using this body. I am very clear within that 126 years, I would have established the concept on at least a million bodies, after that I may not need this one body to be continuously functioning.

(Mohandas Pai - You live in a million bodies…)

Swamiji - At least 1 million bodies, see I am a concept using This Body and manifesting. At least 1 million bodies this concept will be using to manifest itself. Then I may not need just This One Body to be continuing to operate, so let This rest; Good Friend, helped me to reach out to million people. Rest in peace.

(1:05:54)

Mohandas Pai - Okay Swamiji, let me raise a very large issue. The world is suffering from lack of sustainability, the world is suffering from an overdose of prosperity in some areas. There is terrorism around the world. Now what can Sanatana Dharma offer the world to restore balance, make the world much more sustainable. What is the message or meaning that Sanatana Dharma can give?

Swamiji – Let me look at from the prism of Shastra, this whole happening. You raised two major issues.

Mohandas Pai – Yes.

Over prosperity and terrorism.

Mohandas Pai – Yes

Swamiji – When we try to suck the nature more than we need, call that accumulation as a prosperity is not prosperity; it’s a dead load. Grains should be grown and eaten, cannot be stored for next 25 years. If we are planning for storing it for next 25 years, our agriculture is also wrong and the storing method also will be wrong and the quality of the grains will be wrong. This whole thing, terrorism instigated insecurity, insecurity instigated sucking of the Planet Earth, this whole cycle, ultimately boils down to just two. One - the basic Hindu truth, let us all coexist.

Let me give you the original, exact verse. The creation is described our Shastras. When Sadashiva, the Cosmic Oneness, when he decided to become many, the principle he declares to himself, the only commandment is, ‘let us all coexist together’ and ‘abhayam sarva bhutebhyo’ - let us all be protection for all of us, all of us. Let us all protection for all of us. This abhayam sarva bhutebhyo, if you see the whole concept - ‘let us all be protection to all of us’. So the basic commandment – ‘let us coexist’, ‘let us all be protection to all of us’, because the moment there is two there will be conflict. So during the conflict that methodology for conflict resolution is protection for all of us together. Yes. Not exclusion. The problem is now everyone wants to make the world peaceful but excluding the people who are not accepting their ideas.

Mohandas Pai - Say it again.

Everyone want to make the world peaceful but excluding the people who are not accepting their idea of peace.

Mohandas Pai - So excluding them how can it be peaceful?

Swamiji – So excluding somebody else’s idea of peace cannot be the conflict resolution methodology. For any conflict resolution the basic commandment is – let us all coexist and let us all be protection for all of us together. Means abhayam sarva bhutebhyo. Abhayam sarva bhutebhyo does not mean I give protection to all, we give protection to all for all of us together.

(Mohandas Pai - We are all bound together..)

Swamiji – We are all the relationship between all of us, the integrity between all of us, is protection for all of us.

(1:10:06)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, how do we live with nature without over exploitation so that climate change does not take place, you know all creatures on this planet have a right to survive and we don’t destroy them. How do we make this happen along with material prosperity?

Swamiji - Our body is designed for what type of food, eat that food. Our body is designed for what type of clothes, use that clothes. If we go for organic, when I say organic, I mean the natural flow of existence. The fur is needed for that animal. Surely not for us; if we need God would have provided that. He would have provided that for us. Animal protein is for that animal, not for us. If we needed it He would have provided for us. What for we are created, if we go to the core and go with the flow of our core, the life will be best. Going with the flow of our organism is what I call organic. Whether in a food or lifestyle or furnitures or the clothes we use or the gadgets we use or the items we use, in everything, going with our organism, our body is not mechanism. Its allopathy which declares this as a mechanism. Ayurveda declares this as organism. Going with the flow of this organism is what I call Vedic lifestyle, Charya. This lifestyle is the solution and also I want to tell at least at present situation it is an impractical solution, I know. But…

Mohandas Pai - move towards that…

Swamiji – move towards that… that is also a long term solution. But, we can do one thing, even small, small responsible individuals thought, creating a model, the models can become any time models and tip the point. Actually, we always think how can the model change the society? But till now if you see all big changes happened from the model. See, it is a model as long as only few people think it’s a model. If few more people start understanding it, it’s a discovery. If few lakhs of people start understanding it, it’s a lifestyle.

(1:12:59)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, what is your message to world leaders on sustainability and this violence, I mean what would you tell them to do as the two important things?

Swamiji - If somebody listens I will tell them these two. At least you change your life to this organic way and be bold to tell the world you are living this way. Always all leaders lead more people by the subtle power than the hard power. By the soft power than the hard power. I have seen hard power decisions are always overturned when that leader goes away, but the soft power influence he created never goes away, even after the leader goes away. I will naturally ask any leader who listen to me, make this as your soft power influence. It is a soft power influence leads larger impact. For example, if something is made as a hard power rule like a political rule, law by Obama, Trump will overturn it. If something has been lived by somebody as a soft power and created an ambiance, ecology, influence, a spiritual or the atmosphere or the conceptual infrastructure; if that is the way it was presented, nobody can influence and change it, overturn it. If we are looking for a permanent solution, it has to be soft power. It has to be soft power.

(1:14:39)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, what is the role of Gurus in our lives and in Sanatana Dharma? What is the role of the guru? Why can’t all of us become gurus? Except we won’t have followers?

Swamiji - JJNo, I tell you, making yourself as a follower for you, is the first job of Guru. Making yourself as your follower is the first job of Guru. Only who made himself as his follower can be a Guru to make others follow him, because nobody is a fool, everybody goes to the depth and analyzes Guru. Actually they analyze Guru 100 times more than they can analyze themselves. No, I tell people, see only when they analyze them they use two eyes or lesser, when they analyze Guru they use 1000 eyes. And basically I am telling you, Guru is the most scrutinized person. First if you do not have a blind spot, you can be Guru of you. And if you are able to help others to find their blind spot, you can be Guru of them. Basically the job of the Guru is nothing but helping every individual to manifest their ultimate reality.

Mohandas Pai - And a Guru is needed…

Swamiji - I should say without Guru also, you can manifest which takes few thousand births and deaths. See, can you say without GPS can I reach America?You can,

Mohandas Pai - Takes a long time.

Swamiji – Sometimes you may not even, may not even make it. So GPS - Guru Positioning System - makes journey easy, joyful, and certain; certain kind of a certainty. Because, when you see somebody swimming, beyond logic you are convinced you can swim. When he can swim why not me? Then you start taking the steps for it. So surely GPS helps; makes it easy.

(1:17:19)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji, how should followers of Sanatana Dharma protect Sanatana Dharma? Sanatana Dharma now is, some people are trying to work against Sanatana Dharma because Sanatana Dharma is an open architecture is an open system. People have one close system. How should followers of Sanatana Dharma who believe in transparency, in openness, in the freedom of the mind, in the right to decide for yourself, protect the legacy and Sanatana Dharma so that it sustains for itself?

Swamiji - Two things. All closed theologies need to be marketed, promoted, converted, forced, enforced. All open architectural system need to be consumed to is preserved. They need people to be converted. They need to market to keep themself alive and active. We need to be consumed to keep ourself alive and active. They need converted people, followers. We need more consumers. All we need is people who are enjoying it. This tradition is alive, kept alive, not by marketing, not by conversion, to tell you honestly most of the Hindu Gurus do not even know the ritual to convert somebody to Hinduism and many of them believe there is no such ritual.

Actually in Agama there is a ritual for anybody to accept Sanatana Hindu Dharma but it is not that popular. Leave all that. The Hindu tradition was never kept alive by marketing or conversion or any of it. It is kept alive by the people who are consuming, enjoying, celebrating. We need more and more people to consume, enjoy, celebrate. I tell you after the IT revolution, internet revolution, the information, open source, all the informations have become open.

I tell you the new modern mind evolving, only Hinduism is going to survive. I am telling you because this mind is going to scrutinize everything, question everything. Now the freedom is such 6 months you can be male, 6 months you can become female!! Everything has evolved.

So people are looking for choices, people are exploring all choices. In next few years I am looking at the whole thing. When somebody becomes 18, he can decide his language, his country, his career, his gender. Why not his religion? Naturally the new generation is going to choose a religion which gives him enough of choices with depth; enough of choices with depth. And good or bad, right or wrong, fortunately unfortunately, only Sanatana Hindu Dharma has that capacity. It can give you choices and depth. It can give you choices without compromising on depth. On depth. Without compromising on depth giving choices, that is naturally going to be the, see why we go to mall? Choices….. and the depth is not compromised, the quality is not compromised. So, the same quality. Only Sanatana Dharma is a spiritual mall. Sanatana Hindu Dharma is a spiritual mall.

Mohandas Pai – That is……….1:21:30

Swamiji - You can give any name, you can give any name, you can give any name, but Sanatana Dharma is a spiritual mall; multiple choices without compromising on depth and quality.

Mohandas Pai - So are you saying open system, open source will dominate the world against closed proprietary systems?

Swamiji - Yes. Not only open system is going to dominate, I tell you, closed systems are going to be rejected by the consumers. Fortunately, the whole world is now consumers, they are no more even citizens. They have become consumers. See the world…. which is the largest city in the world where the largest number of people are living…. internet. 2 billion people are living on it at any given time. So the whole world is…… they are not followers of certain religion, they are not citizens of certain country. See the citizen belongs to certain language, belongs to certain caste, belongs to certain gender, all these have become smaller part of their identity. Consumerism is the largest part of their identity. Every man’s action, how his actions are inspired, his thinking is inspired, if you go to the depth…. see if you do the depth post mortem of somebody, 2% of his actions are forced, pressurized by what he feels as his religion, 2% is influenced by what he feels as his language, 3% is influenced by what he feels as his age. If you analyze, do the post mortem, the largest percent of his actions and thought currents are influenced by being a consumer. What is good for me, what should be my actions to make me better? The consumeristic idea. So that has become the largest driving force of the human being. That is why I am saying only Hinduism has a future. The consumeristic brain, only if were able to cater to them, we have a future. Any ideology, any theology which can stand the demands of the consumeristic brain, only that is going to be the future ideology and theology. That is going to be Agamas and Hinduism.

(Mohandas Pai - that is fascinating Swamiji.. that is very fascinating…)

Swamiji – You will see, because, it is not that Hinduism does not have rules. It very clearly says, rules is only when you are not able to handle yourself. For example, you are not able to wake up in the morning and do yoga. Then a rule comes - you have to do cold water bath in the morning and do yoga. But once you start enjoying yoga, the rule is not there anymore for you, then you are given the context maintain your breath this long, blood pressure this much, and this should be your the way of your bowels functioning, this is all is health, you continue. Then nothing comes; after that no rules. You are given the context and you can manage that with your breathing, with your exercise, when you want, what you want to do. So the Vidhi Nisheda, is given only when you are not able to handle yourself. The moment you are able to handle yourself, you are given Jnana and given freedom.Charya, lifestyle is only in the initial, then you are given Vidya, Jnana, and given freedom. The religions which work in this fashion only has a future. And if any religion wants to survive the consumeristic brain of the new generation, please come and adopt the structure of Hinduism.

(Mohandas Pai - an open architecture…)

Swamiji – And I am also seeing many of the liberal groups from other religions are slowly absorbing our style. See… by conversion, by promoting something being marketed, all is old style… till the Second World War. There is not going to be a third world war, we are very sure. When we are very sure there is not going to be a third world war, the religions spread by marketing, conversion, cohesion all that has no future; because their infrastructure for spreading is no more useful for human society. And the infrastructure we built for generations, 60 thousand years for our survival is becoming now useful and that is what is being consumed by left and right. So the future demand and the infrastructure we built are fortunately matching. That is why I am saying only we have future.

See, for example, even an initial level guy, my Brahmachari can sit and do Vaakyartha Sadas. Vaakyartha Sadas means convincing the consumeristic brain that this is the best technology and software to adopt to run your life. What is religion? Best software to run your life.Software for Being is religion. Software for the Being. So even my Brahmachari can convince any Being, this is the best software available. See, if other closed sources or windows 1, this is not even Windows, it is a door!!!

Understand now human beings need convincing and adopting. When they adopt and see the Sakshi Pramana. This was the infrastructure we were building for 60000 years. We did not build big, big weapons to convert people. Fortunately… it is like a suddenly overnight the alternative for petrol is discovered, all the roads are now waste, all the petrol vehicles are waste. Suddenly we have invented a method … you wear something like a shoe and you raise yourself 300 feet and walk and reach where you want, what will happen to whole petroleum and car industry? And the roads?

Mohandas Pai – Redundant

Swamiji – Not only redundant, all the years they spent in that is waste; R&D, everything is waste. That is why I am saying, the religions which evolved a systematic theology, books, beliefs; even all these are infrastructure. See when certain beliefs are given down the generations, it becomes a bio-memory of that group. So, all the religions built their spreading and marketing on weapons, wars, killing, whatever names they may give, all that, now they are redundant because that system is no more consumed by people.

So what is going to be consumed by people is Vakyartha Sadas type of marketing. Means understanding and discussion and debate; that kind of a marketing. And in argument we find out who is right in debate we find out what is right. So Hinduism is based on debate – Vakyartha Sadas, not who is right but what is right. So our whole infrastructure is built for this kind of a people. Fortunately, the product we developed is picking up the market. It is not that we made it. To tell you honestly

Mohandas Pai – It was there

Swamiji – No, no, no, for example this consumeristic brain of the New Generation is not created by Hindus. But fortunately the evolution has led to that and only we have the product to supply for this at the right time.

(1:30:37)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji another question for all of us because we have discussed the purpose of life, the meaning of life, how to find peace, the role of Dharma, how Sanatana Dharma can make a better world for all of us. Now for businessmen, business executives, what is your message to be successful? They have to face competition, there is globalization impact in them, and like you said consumers want greater choice, so the product life cycle comes down. With all this happening what do you think, how can businessmen be successful? What is your message to them?

Swamiji – Basically, competition, then value addition, then Dharma - means our ethics. Whether in the level of competition or in the level of value addition or in the level of Dharma, in every level I see one point can be stable and make yourself current. See, there are some concepts very stable, eternal but it cannot be current. There are some concepts which are current but they do not have the eternal, eternity support. There is one concept which is eternal and can be current, means, it is as old as Sun, as new as sunrise.

Mohandas Pai - as old as Sun and as new as sunrise!! And what is that?

Swamiji - Responsibility established on Oneness. When we look at the life, whether creating the product, or marketing the product, or facing the competitors….

See facing the competitors is nothing but the job of Kshatriya.

Value addition is job of the Vaishya.

This two, if it is designed with the context of Brahmana, Dharma is established.

Now what I am talking is more like a theory, more like a lines. If I have to get down to every situation, the basic thing, see, pharmaceutical companies when they started developing the chemical based medicines, they were not cunning. They were not criminal, it was all with the good motive, very good intention. But when the huge marketing infrastructure is established and they do not have enough product to supply and sustain the marketing infrastructure, now they are forced to retain their marketing infrastructure. So then morality and the need is compromised. So this is what I call bending the context of a Brahmana.

If the Brahmana’s context is not bent and if they take the brunt of…. we don’t have enough product to supply to maintain this marketing infrastructure, it might have been a hit for them in one year. But if the context of integrity is kept the further Research and Development could have happened. If we compromise on the quality to maintain the infrastructure further R&D is not required. Cheating is enough to keep us alive. If we don’t compromise on the Brahminical Dharma, the context, this two, competition and this value addition, these two will not kill each other. The competition kills the value addition without making innovation possible. If the competition is maintained, faced, with the responsibility of the value addition, innovation happens.

Mohandas Pai - And that’s the rule for success

Swamiji - Rule for success. And I tell you, anywhere, when we are hit with the reports ‘its collapsing, our marketing infrastructure is not able to sustain the income which is coming’, if we are hit, the reaction comes as a cheating. Less reaction more action. So the leaders need to be more acting less reacting. Then the decisions will always be without compromising the context of Brahminical principles - Dharma and the competition will not kill the value addition.

(1:35:48)

Mohandas Pai - Swamiji you spoke about Punya. How does Punya and business and Dharma go together? Is making profit Punya?

Swamiji - I should say, if we are not allowing the competition to kill the value addition that is Punya.Making profit without letting the competition kill the value addition, without letting Vaishya kill Kshatriya, anything you make you are a Brahmana.It all boils down to competition not becoming cunning and destroying value addition. Value addition if as long as it is kept alive, all profit you make is Punya. All profit you make is Punya. One more thing,

MohandasPai - so Apple, all the huge profits of Apple is a Punya because it’s based on innovation, competition, good products.

Swamiji - I should say 100% punya. For example this chair, to make this chair it may take 100 rupee but I have all the right to sell this chair even for 10 lakh rupee, saying I sat on this. It is a value addition. Because you see, value is only based on what people want. Understand. It is not what all the ingredients put in that. What all the ingredients put in that and what comes is output; that is not value. Output is different, value is different. Value is dependent on the people who want it. If it is output may be 100 rupee. So when we fix the value we are not… see value no way compromises our integrity. For example, if I say I sat on it and fix the cost as 1 lakh and if I have not sat on it then it is wrong. Then it is lack of Integrity. So anywhere if integrity is maintained to the word and spirit, everything comes is a Punya, everything comes is a Punya.

(1:37:52)

Mohandas Pai - And Swamiji, what is the obligation of business leaders to society? Today leaders of society could be from business, could be from politics, could be from other areas; but I am talking only about business. What is the obligation of business leaders to the society at large?

Swamiji - See if you use the word obligation, obligation means,

Mohandas Pai - Responsibility

Swamiji - If you use the word obligation I will answer not compromising on the value addition, means competition not killing the value addition is the obligation. Responsibility is all the stress you receive feedback you receive pressure you receive should be directed towards innovation. That is responsibility. Obligation is competition and the survival threats not killing value addition is Obligation. And all the survival threads are converted and manifested as innovation is Responsibility.When a pattern hits us, completion is obligation. Converting that into power is responsibility.

(1:39:11)

Mohandas Pai - Then final question, how do you see our future? How do you see our society? You think the future is going to be much, much better than today and yesterday. Do you see a very bright future for our children?

Swamiji - Fortunately, I am seeing a bright future for children because all the established ruling MNC structures are losing power over individuals. No, no, please understand. See, all multinational company power structures, MNCs are losing power over the people. The individual consumer’s taste is driving humanity. One great thing is, by the very structure, the individual consumeristic nature will only go towards good better best. Whether it is a cup of coffee we drink or the thought current we cherish while we drink the coffee or the ideologies we cherish for our life, or the belief systems we cherish about life, in every level, making a product in one corner and bulldozing it and selling it all over the world through the franchise selling centers, marketing centers, that structure is failing, collapsing. It is collapsing. Whether it is a food level or cloth level or ideology level, in all levels this system is collapsing. Indigenous food style, indigenous clothing style, indigenous thought current religions are gaining power because of consumeristic brain and consumeristic new generation. A consumeristic new generation is not going to be satisfied by the marketed products or ideologies or theory.

One fortunate thing is, even in the media, the mainstream media is losing power over the people. A corporate media house which is established infrastructure, need to compromise on Truth to retain their establishment and infrastructure is losing power over the social media guy who has only one iPhone and who is able to put anything he want in his Blog, in his Facebook, is more trusted, consumed by people than the established media houses. See the whole thing turning. I am not talking some theories.

Mohandas Pai - And is it a turn for the better?

Swamiji - Surely this turn is…. now it’s a fluttering period, now it is a settling period; but for future this is best.

( Mohandas Pai - And who are going to be the winners? consumers?...)

Swamiji - Winners are going to be the consumers and the people who are supplying the best thing;who are able to stand the competition without compromising the value addition with the truth of the context. Sanatana Hindu Dharma.

Mohandas Pai - Thank you very much Swamiji. I think this has been a very fascinating two hrs. Thank you very much, thank you very much.

Swamiji - Thank you. So end of the discussion, this is the conclusion I wanted to share with you all, SANATANA HINDU DHARMA IS REAL AND THAT ONLY HAS FUTURE.