Years ago the Detroit Tigers developed Alan Trammel and Lou Whitaker together as their future middle infielders at each level in the minors before they reach the majors. We all know how that turned out. I would love to see the Indians do likewise with Lindor and Wolters with the latter moving to secondbase.

Troybuildfitess wrote:Years ago the Detroit Tigers developed Alan Trammel and Lou Whitaker together as their future middle infielders at each level in the minors before they reach the majors. We all know how that turned out. I would love to see the Indians do likewise with Lindor and Wolters with the latter moving to secondbase.

We have some pretty good middle infielders in the lower levels to focus just on those 2. Some will succeed while others may fail. Keep the congo line up and going. Here is what I would do next season:

elrod enchilada wrote:That seems likely, doesn't it? Lindor and Wolters at Lake County next year, and moving forward together. In high A the Tribe will have Ronnie Rodriguez and, possibly, Zach MacPhee.

I suspect the Tribe will prefer to take Lindor and Wolters station-to-station to get to the bigs. They are covered there for several years with Cabrera and Kipnis.

Mirabelli said early this year in a Minor Happenings that Short Season A may be more advanced than Lake County because College guys feed that league while Low A ball is generally 2nd Year HS or JC guys. Wolters would have been there had he not been injured in ST. I suspect MV guys that have success like Wolters will move to Kinston next year while HS signees will move to LC if the team feels they are ready for that. 2nd year Latin guys like Jairo Kelly will probably be slated for MV.

elrod enchilada wrote:That seems likely, doesn't it? Lindor and Wolters at Lake County next year, and moving forward together. In high A the Tribe will have Ronnie Rodriguez and, possibly, Zach MacPhee.

I suspect the Tribe will prefer to take Lindor and Wolters station-to-station to get to the bigs. They are covered there for several years with Cabrera and Kipnis.

I'm not sure Ronny is ready for High-A next year. He hasn't demonstrated it in the field and with the stick and he's still young. Personally, I'd hold him in Lake County to start the year at least. Wolters is an interesting case where he's still very young, but performing at a high level in a slightly advanced league for his age. You could make the case to send him to Lake County because of his youth, but you could also make the case of sending him to Kinston with his performance. Me, personally, I would send him to LC also to start the season, at least.

That leaves Lindor and MacPhee. Lindor I would have start the year in extended spring training and whoever wins the battle to Kinston first, whether it be Wolters or Ronny, then Lindor goes to LC. Let's not forget about Lindor's youth either.

Going forward - even as of right now, I could see Wolters heading to LC. Bartolone may be "interesting" - but he has just been officially pushed to the backest (?) of the burners. See no reason to move Wolters to 2B now, but based on how next season unfolds - its seems quite possible they could end up playing ball on the same team... Then you really don't have to much of a choice. Besides Wolters has the makings of an excellent 2B.

Hard to imagine that Bartolone is even view as anything more than org fodder. Not much there to be excited about. Bartelone will have no impact or consideration on any moves they make regarding Lindor and/or Wolters.

elrod enchilada wrote:That seems likely, doesn't it? Lindor and Wolters at Lake County next year, and moving forward together. In high A the Tribe will have Ronnie Rodriguez and, possibly, Zach MacPhee.

I suspect the Tribe will prefer to take Lindor and Wolters station-to-station to get to the bigs. They are covered there for several years with Cabrera and Kipnis.

I'm not sure Ronny is ready for High-A next year. He hasn't demonstrated it in the field and with the stick and he's still young. Personally, I'd hold him in Lake County to start the year at least. Wolters is an interesting case where he's still very young, but performing at a high level in a slightly advanced league for his age. You could make the case to send him to Lake County because of his youth, but you could also make the case of sending him to Kinston with his performance. Me, personally, I would send him to LC also to start the season, at least.

That leaves Lindor and MacPhee. Lindor I would have start the year in extended spring training and whoever wins the battle to Kinston first, whether it be Wolters or Ronny, then Lindor goes to LC. Let's not forget about Lindor's youth either.

Someone has to go to Kinston next year! The Indians cannot afford to have another organizational dead zone. I thought it would be Wolters but Tony sure threw cold water on that. The A+ franchise needs all new postition players including SS and 2B.

elrod enchilada wrote:That seems likely, doesn't it? Lindor and Wolters at Lake County next year, and moving forward together. In high A the Tribe will have Ronnie Rodriguez and, possibly, Zach MacPhee.

I suspect the Tribe will prefer to take Lindor and Wolters station-to-station to get to the bigs. They are covered there for several years with Cabrera and Kipnis.

I'm not sure Ronny is ready for High-A next year. He hasn't demonstrated it in the field and with the stick and he's still young. Personally, I'd hold him in Lake County to start the year at least. Wolters is an interesting case where he's still very young, but performing at a high level in a slightly advanced league for his age. You could make the case to send him to Lake County because of his youth, but you could also make the case of sending him to Kinston with his performance. Me, personally, I would send him to LC also to start the season, at least.

That leaves Lindor and MacPhee. Lindor I would have start the year in extended spring training and whoever wins the battle to Kinston first, whether it be Wolters or Ronny, then Lindor goes to LC. Let's not forget about Lindor's youth either.

Someone has to go to Kinston next year! The Indians cannot afford to have another organizational dead zone. I thought it would be Wolters but Tony sure threw cold water on that. The A+ franchise needs all new postition players including SS and 2B.

elrod enchilada wrote:That seems likely, doesn't it? Lindor and Wolters at Lake County next year, and moving forward together. In high A the Tribe will have Ronnie Rodriguez and, possibly, Zach MacPhee.

I suspect the Tribe will prefer to take Lindor and Wolters station-to-station to get to the bigs. They are covered there for several years with Cabrera and Kipnis.

I'm not sure Ronny is ready for High-A next year. He hasn't demonstrated it in the field and with the stick and he's still young. Personally, I'd hold him in Lake County to start the year at least. Wolters is an interesting case where he's still very young, but performing at a high level in a slightly advanced league for his age. You could make the case to send him to Lake County because of his youth, but you could also make the case of sending him to Kinston with his performance. Me, personally, I would send him to LC also to start the season, at least.

That leaves Lindor and MacPhee. Lindor I would have start the year in extended spring training and whoever wins the battle to Kinston first, whether it be Wolters or Ronny, then Lindor goes to LC. Let's not forget about Lindor's youth either.

Someone has to go to Kinston next year! The Indians cannot afford to have another organizational dead zone. I thought it would be Wolters but Tony sure threw cold water on that. The A+ franchise needs all new postition players including SS and 2B.

IMO, that's why you could see org filler Bartolone go...

I think that just perpetuates the dead zone. Bartolone will never be a ML MI in this crowd. IF he is anything, he should be a UT in A+/A.

criznit2009 wrote:Going forward - even as of right now, I could see Wolters heading to LC. Bartolone may be "interesting" - but he has just been officially pushed to the backest (?) of the burners. See no reason to move Wolters to 2B now, but based on how next season unfolds - its seems quite possible they could end up playing ball on the same team... Then you really don't have to much of a choice. Besides Wolters has the makings of an excellent 2B.

I think the plan all along has been to move Wolters to 2B and the only reason he's still playing SS is so he's not learning a new position while trying to figure out how to hit professional pitching in his 1st year. My guess would be that Wolters sees some time at 2B in the last week or so in MV while Lindor settles in at SS. I have to believe Wolters moves to 2B full time next season with Lindor or Ronnie Rodriguez as his battery-mate whether it be in Lake County or Zebulon.

There are a ton of good looking young middle infielders right now. Pushing someone to 3rd even is hard with Urshela and Smith in the mix. A good problem to have. Except for one problem that really clogs things up.There has been a complete lack of promising position players at Kinston this year - and now that Abreu is gone... Aguliar is great - but made his mark in Lake Co. Also Akron has been disappointing to a lesser degree. Next year that Aero team could end up looking pretty patched (terrible) together next year. Seriously start putting together a line-up card.... not pretty.... I wonder if Chen returns - Prolly will but I don't see the point as he can play at AAA as long as needed with Santana, Marson and (vet) here for quite awhile. Suppose we could trade Marson, but don't see how that would affect Chen much, besides i think Chen is more likely to be traded if that happens.I think we will see some early movement in the system next year. Anyone who is rocking Zebulon (wild) or Lake Co prolly gets a little more consideration than normal with the current state of A+/AA. Think we will see Lindor/Wotlers at Zeb and the other one Lake Co to start the year.

FWIW, talked with a writer for another affiliate in the NYPL who also does some pieces on ESPN.. Asked him about Wolters..

"Love his confidence. Good speed up the line, advanced at the plate. Needs work defensively."On staying at SS... "Needs to work on defense but too early to warrant position switch. Give him a few years."

...maybe we keep a Padron or Copeland but that's it...It's not gonna be a good lineup but with lots of fringe specs from within

That team could almost be next years A+ team, its so weak ..At least on paper, history, projection.. On the bright side - Holt could be alright, Abraham is a decent hitter, not sure how well that will play in AA especially with his D...After that its all a bad gamble really. Not a single spec in the bunch. Sure an opportunity is there, but there just isn't much there IMO. Kin/Zeb - those teams looks pretty good, hence my point..... Performers in A ball in 2012 will prolly be pushed a little, maybe not, but with all the quality depth at 2B/SS/3B in A ball anyone there who is burning it might get a surprise.

I'd like to say that the only thing that would stop me from going to Akron games is if I moved too far away… but that roster would definitely challenge me. There's not a single position player listed there that triggers the "I really need to go see him" reflex… and Chun Chen was really the only one to provide that this year. Maybe they could get in on the deal the National League affiliates have between themselves where they let the pitchers hit.

entertheshoe wrote:I'd like to see Greenwell up at AA if that's the situation. He did finish his last season (prior to injury) at Kinston, I don't see why to keep him at 4th/5th OF in 2012. He'll be 23 by then anyways.

Also, I gotta think there's no way they keep both Urshela and Jordan Smith together on the same team unless Smith is moved to the outfield.

indianinkslinger wrote:Congratulations. You may have put together the worst AA lineup in the history of baseball. Nearly all of the players should be released, not imposed upon the Akron fans.

Really? I still have hope for Holt, Perez and Henry...Henry, Diaz and Bellows deserve another year in AA to prove if they can rebound, they're still young enough and have promising D...Cannon, Tice and Abraham all had above AVG years in A ball...nearly all should be released? Really? You want a roster full of 27/28yo Copeland's? That don't even produce better? I'd rather give a 23/24yo kid we drafted another shot...and again, some of them really deserve the promotion...if those specs continue to hit at league AVG level ro above they're still specs, fringe specs as I said but specs nontheless...the strength should be the pitching anyway with some good arms from A ball coming up and some blocked SP who should be in AAA next year

indianinkslinger wrote:Congratulations. You may have put together the worst AA lineup in the history of baseball. Nearly all of the players should be released, not imposed upon the Akron fans.

Really? I still have hope for Holt, Perez and Henry...Henry, Diaz and Bellows deserve another year in AA to prove if they can rebound, they're still young enough and have promising D...Cannon, Tice and Abraham all had above AVG years in A ball...nearly all should be released? Really? You want a roster full of 27/28yo Copeland's? That don't even produce better? I'd rather give a 23/24yo kid we drafted another shot...and again, some of them really deserve the promotion...if those specs continue to hit at league AVG level ro above they're still specs, fringe specs as I said but specs nontheless...the strength should be the pitching anyway with some good arms from A ball coming up and some blocked SP who should be in AAA next year

A shot at what? They have no chance of reaching the majors. They are already old for prospects. They are organizational players at A ball. You can have all the hope you want but that is what it is. Let Henry, Diaz and Bellows have another year. Holt is nothing, cannot hit LHP and is not a good CF. Perez is a backup catcher at best to Chen who gets some time at 1B. But none of these guys are going anywhere whether we drafted them or not. Cannon, Tice and Abrahams all are terrible offensively and defensively. As an organizational backup at AA they would be weak at best. Don't put words in my mouth! I said nothing about 27/28 yr old Copelands. In case you are not aware, there are many ways to pick up additional players that are better than the crap you chose. Actually, even Copeland is better but has the same chance of becoming a productive ML ballplayer-None.

What a player is doing at AA isn't necessarily an indication of his ability at upper levels of the minors and future results if they make it to the majors.. case in point:

Jose Constanza.. was a 26/27 year old outfielder with no power who hit a mediocre .280 with AA Akron. He had speed and could catch the ball. There was consideration for him to be moved up (as witnessed by his promotion to AAA as a 27/28 year old to AAA Columbus). The Indians talent evaluators saw him as a fourth outfielder in the ML's at best. After moving onto Atlanta, he has been promoted and his career has taken off. He's currently batting over .400 in 60 at bats and even has two home runs. He's a top of the order table setter for the current wild card holding Braves and has pushed the GREAT Jason Heyward to the bench.

In short, the talent at AA that is being opined as "garbage".. is a garbage opinion...

I chose? You must have missed the part where I said it's a weak lineup with FRINGE specs but I rather give them 1 last shot then some never beens that are 3-5years older, what's the alternative?...I made those virtual rosters responding to some posters claim that we'd have to patch the roster together..I took that as signing fillers only...I showed that we don't necessarily need that

Also, Henry and Holt are leadoff specs...they need OBP and speed...and guess what, their OBP is north of .360 and both have 30+ steals. Are you aware what the AVG numbers for the CAR League are? It's a pitchers League...there are like 5 players with an OPS of .800 or better and the leader is a 26yo with his 3rd year in the league...Perez, Holt, Abraham and Tice are all Top 5 guys in either OBP or OPS, or both, Holt is 3rd in SB...

I mean I know we're not talking Top25 specs as I called them "fringe", remember? but "nothing"? Holt is in his 2nd year in the org, his 1st FULL season and hasn't even reached 500 ABs and you call him nothing? .370 OBP and 30of35 SBs for a leadoff guy nothing? Yeah, we should release him and play with whom?

Lets have a look into the future say 4-5 years from now You have Chiz at just 26-27 years old , a 27-28 years. Kipnis, a 28-29 years old Santana and maybe a 29-30 year old A-Cab. Then you have MLB ready Lindor, Wolters and maybe Jordan smith. How does all that work out? Kipnis at DH and Wolters at 2nd and live Jordan Smith to first? It switch Kipnis and Smith and hope Santana gets better behind thevplate? Trade some players for. A for pitcher?

ClevBuck wrote:Lets have a look into the future say 4-5 years from now You have Chiz at just 26-27 years old , a 27-28 years. Kipnis, a 28-29 years old Santana and maybe a 29-30 year old A-Cab. Then you have MLB ready Lindor, Wolters and maybe Jordan smith. How does all that work out? Kipnis at DH and Wolters at 2nd and live Jordan Smith to first? It switch Kipnis and Smith and hope Santana gets better behind thevplate? Trade some players for. A for pitcher?

Your post is doesn't take into consideration free agency. Asdrubal Cabrera is here through 2013. Then he is gone (can't pay what he will command). To list Jordan Smith as a premium prospect guy is crazy at this point (he really hasn't done anything to separate himself as elite), and even to say Lindor and Wolters are sure fire major leaguers, let alone plus major leaguers is also an assumption you can't make.

Chiz will be at 3rd, Kip will be at 2nd, Santana will probably be full time 1B at this point. If we have an abundance of prospect that will be a good thing because then we can trade some of these players as they get more pricey. But to predict exactly how the future will go is impossible.

theshow wrote:Chiz will be at 3rd, Kip will be at 2nd, Santana will probably be full time 1B at this point.

I sure hope Santana isn't a full-time first basemen by that point. I know Santana has some athleticism and looks pretty good over there, he's also 5'11. Some of his misses (particularly the play that got Asdrubal to get in his face) wouldn't have even been an issue if he were a normal size 1B (6'2 or taller). I like Santana playing there for about 40 games a season just to keep his legs fresh but ultimately he gets the most value from his bat playing catcher.

I know he's looked bad back there at times but he's still new to the position and definitely has some upside. He has a great arm, but he needs help with his footwork. He also needs to learn to not appear so apathetic back there. I think Sandy Alomar works pretty extensively with him this offseason and I expect him to come back a much better catcher next year. Last offseason he has to worry about rehabbing his knee and I don't think he got the opportunity to work as much on the nuances of catching.

ClevBuck wrote:Lets have a look into the future say 4-5 years from now You have Chiz at just 26-27 years old , a 27-28 years. Kipnis, a 28-29 years old Santana and maybe a 29-30 year old A-Cab. Then you have MLB ready Lindor, Wolters and maybe Jordan smith. How does all that work out? Kipnis at DH and Wolters at 2nd and live Jordan Smith to first? It switch Kipnis and Smith and hope Santana gets better behind thevplate? Trade some players for. A for pitcher?

To list Jordan Smith as a premium prospect guy is crazy at this point (he really hasn't done anything to separate himself as elite)

You mean aside from having a .340 BA, a .434 on base percentage and more walks then strikeouts in his first professional season? Other than that, I agree he hasn't done "anything" to separate himself as elite.

theshow wrote:Your post is doesn't take into consideration free agency. Asdrubal Cabrera is here through 2013. Then he is gone (can't pay what he will command). To list Jordan Smith as a premium prospect guy is crazy at this point (he really hasn't done anything to separate himself as elite), and even to say Lindor and Wolters are sure fire major leaguers, let alone plus major leaguers is also an assumption you can't make.

By 2013 the Tribe will have some tough personnel decisions to make. There is a possibility that Asdrubal will be around but they will not be able to keep all of their top players (Hafner, Ubaldo, Choo, Carmona...). Some $$$ will be coming off the payroll in the next few years (Hafner, Carmona). My guess is that the Diaz/R-Rod/Wolters/Lindor/J.Kelly/D.Paulino congo line a SS will make it easier to say goodbye to Asdrubal but things can change.

ClevBuck wrote:Lets have a look into the future say 4-5 years from now You have Chiz at just 26-27 years old , a 27-28 years. Kipnis, a 28-29 years old Santana and maybe a 29-30 year old A-Cab. Then you have MLB ready Lindor, Wolters and maybe Jordan smith. How does all that work out? Kipnis at DH and Wolters at 2nd and live Jordan Smith to first? It switch Kipnis and Smith and hope Santana gets better behind thevplate? Trade some players for. A for pitcher?

To list Jordan Smith as a premium prospect guy is crazy at this point (he really hasn't done anything to separate himself as elite)

You mean aside from having a .340 BA, a .434 on base percentage and more walks then strikeouts in his first professional season? Other than that, I agree he hasn't done "anything" to separate himself as elite.

Jordan Smith is a guy I want to see more of in LC to see what this kid can do. I don't want to say he's elite, but he's very intriguing and a guy to keep an eye on going forward.

A.Zajac wrote:Jordan Smith is a guy I want to see more of in LC to see what this kid can do. I don't want to say he's elite, but he's very intriguing and a guy to keep an eye on going forward.

I agree. I'm a little concerned that he's in the Tyner zone (to steal a line from Buff) as his OBP > SLG but .330 avg can't be ignored either. He probably never gets into the elite zone, but as of now he might be top 10 worthy by this time next year if he can keep it up.

A.Zajac wrote:Jordan Smith is a guy I want to see more of in LC to see what this kid can do. I don't want to say he's elite, but he's very intriguing and a guy to keep an eye on going forward.

I agree. I'm a little concerned that he's in the Tyner zone (to steal a line from Buff) as his OBP > SLG but .330 avg can't be ignored either. He probably never gets into the elite zone, but as of now he might be top 10 worthy by this time next year if he can keep it up.

there are definielty a couple things to like about Jordan Smith for sure. But - until he hits a few over the fence he is going to be a really hard sell at 3B - I haven't heard much about his defense - I assume it is average. He has some pop, gotta think the indians are going to be intently focused on trying to improve it.

Who cares if he's not a monster HR hitter? Ill take a Guy hitting .340 and a .435 OBP playing very good defense and driving in runs at a decent clip with more walks then K's over a Adam Dunn hitting 3rd base all day everyday. Smith so far this year has shown all the tools to be a good #2 or #3 hitter. And he could still put on muscle to get more HRs but he could also be looking to just be the Guy to get a base hit every time

If this org wont reconize him as a top tier prospect because he can't hit 30+ HR then that's an absolute frickin joke and I would hope he gets traded somewhere to get a chance. His bat right now is farther along then Chizenhall at MV

ClevBuck wrote:Who cares if he's not a monster HR hitter? Ill take a Guy hitting .340 and a .435 OBP playing very good defense and driving in runs at a decent clip with more walks then K's over a Adam Dunn hitting 3rd base all day everyday. Smith so far this year has shown all the tools to be a good #2 or #3 hitter. And he could still put on muscle to get more HRs but he could also be looking to just be the Guy to get a base hit every time

If this org wont reconize him as a top tier prospect because he can't hit 30+ HR then that's an absolute frickin joke and I would hope he gets traded somewhere to get a chance. His bat right now is farther along then Chizenhall at MV

Smith has a strong throwing arm at third, but he's not an elite defender. An average third baseman.

You absolutely cannot compare Chisenhall to Smith at the same level, though. Different pitchers, different ages.. Plus, nothing against Smith, but I don't foresee him becoming the prospect Chisenhall was. A LOT of players perform well in the NYPL and don't pan out.

The Lake County infield next year is likely going to be Lindor at SS and Wolters at 2B. To break Lindor in and not over do it Wolters should see some time at SS too. They will need a utility guy, and that is probably where a Bartolone, Frazer, Medina, etc come in. Zach MacPhee will more than likely be the 2B in Kinston. Hankins has to figure in there somewhere.

There is no way in hell Wolters is skipping Low-A. At the worst he gets a half season in Lake County before going to Kinston. No reason to rush him yet and he still needs to work on a lot of things in the lower levels to give him a foundation to build on and go back to when he struggles.

As for Ronny Rodriguez, it will be interesting to see what they do with him. But, recall that they promoted a young Carlos Rivero to Kinston in 2008 after an okay 2007 in Lake County. I think we see the same thing next year. Rivero showed a better walk rate, but beyond that Rodriguez is playing as good or better.

ClevBuck wrote:Who cares if he's not a monster HR hitter? Ill take a Guy hitting .340 and a .435 OBP playing very good defense and driving in runs at a decent clip with more walks then K's over a Adam Dunn hitting 3rd base all day everyday. Smith so far this year has shown all the tools to be a good #2 or #3 hitter. And he could still put on muscle to get more HRs but he could also be looking to just be the Guy to get a base hit every time

If this org wont reconize him as a top tier prospect because he can't hit 30+ HR then that's an absolute frickin joke and I would hope he gets traded somewhere to get a chance. His bat right now is farther along then Chizenhall at MV

Smith has a strong throwing arm at third, but he's not an elite defender. An average third baseman.

You absolutely cannot compare Chisenhall to Smith at the same level, though. Different pitchers, different ages.. Plus, nothing against Smith, but I don't foresee him becoming the prospect Chisenhall was. A LOT of players perform well in the NYPL and don't pan out.

NYPL issue is always the age, and Smith is older and beating up on your competition. You have to be aware of the levels, Its why I was leery of Kipnis at first, proved wrong. Yet also how I knew people should not be jumping on the Gallas band wagon. I like Smith, but I can't see him making the top 20 at this point, the minors are still incredibility deep and really no flame outs this year, so in spite of the top shelf gradation and trade, in terms of depth I think the minors are better this year than last year. Top 10 is not as strong but 11-30 range I think might be stronger this year

TonyIPI wrote:I don't know Jeff. Smith just turned 21 last month so age is not an issue at all in his case. He is very intriguing, though will be quick to note he is not a Chisenhall talent at this stage (yet).

I know he was a CC college kid, but I guess in general I refuse to get excited by NYPL. Its a showcase but most break out gusy fall back to earth, a lot to like about Smith and honestly I think he could be a better federoff but not willing to go beyond that yet