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Awesome thread here. I posted another topic in this forum and was directed to this topic. I'm curious to know about what jazz pianists think about the merits of developing a classical foundation before delving into jazz. I took lessons up to RCM grade 8 about 10 years ago, and I'm not sure whether to finish up RCM grade 10 before starting my jazz studies, or whether to do the two types of piano lessons concurrently. Would the latter be counterproductive or synergistic?

Also, my end goal is to be able to improvise around melodies I hear, or songs from the radio (not necessarily in a "jazz" style). Is jazz the most sensible way to reach that goal? I find myself using the words jazz and improv interchangeably, and perhaps if I merely want to improvise, jazz may not be the most direct path to reach what I want.

Hard to categorize jazz. This is jazz too by a player that constantly switches styles.

One thing about jazz study, it's probably the only formal method for learning improvisation that I'm aware of because there's so much resources around for it.

But regardless of the sub-genre of jazz, note that jazz is always a combination of improvisation of tones and RHYTHM.

Without some sort of rhythmic side then it's not likely to be called jazz. Often the rhythm is swing but not necessarily since a lot of the music is based on Latin rhythms which are straight. But in general, jazz has a lot of rhythmic complexity.

Hello all,this is my first post to the Jazz study group.Although not a jazz player myself, my interest in jazzcame from hearing jazz concerts played at theschool where I work.They have awesome concerts and an awesome jazz studies department, of which Dr. Frank DiBussolo teaches jazz.To check out some of the concerts click here.

Ya know, jmj586, lots of people have appreciated your posting links to their pieces on your web site. But I don't really want links to my pieces or my experiments all over the web. I post on Piano World because it's my cohort, and mostly I feel like I've gotten to know people here.

So at this point, the part I contributed here is coming down.

*I* don't appreciate it

And if you start in on recitals, etc, I'm outta here entirely as far posting pieces.

On the other hand, my experiments *were* on this thread. I don't have videos.

Funny, but I've looked at your posts, and somehow I get the impression you're not actually about participating here in the ABF. A link to PW forums would be less, um, commercial looking to me. Maybe you like more traffic to your website because you get a fee for click-thrus to some of the other sites? I am *such* a cynic.

On the other hand, your posts haven't been moderated, so PW doesn't mind them. And other posters don't.

But any thread you link to with my stuff in it, my stuff is coming out. Your posts really do look to me like you're really after something besides being helpful.

I'm still only around 6 % through this thread, but I'm extremely annoyed by the unintentional emoticons showing up everywhere. It's very confusing to read through JazzWees posts, when [ b ] (I assume) becomes an overheated emoticon, instead of bold facing the text as intended.

Is it something I can change? I imagine, since I haven't seen anyone else complaining, that it doesn't appear for everyone else. I'll try to see if I can just quote a snippet of what I'm talking about below.

Yes, I know they are SUPPOSED to bold-face the text, but for some reason they don't. Instead the [ b ] tag (I assume) turns into an emoticon with its hair on fire or something like that. It's really horrid. I've tried in Safari and Firefox now (on OSX) with no change. I've also tried using PW's option to expire cookies and I've expired them manually from the browser, all to no effect.

I've also tried logging myself out, but it still happens.

is there ANY way to disable emoticons (that's what they're called, isn't it? The smiley things) completely?

I'm reading from the forum, so HTML. I'll take a look at the PDF, but it's not just this thread. It's every thread on Piano world where someone tries to bold-face something.

When posting (just now), I can see that I can select between using HTML, UBBCode and both combined, but that's just for my post. Bold-facing seems to work in preview (using UBBCode): test

EDIT: Well, the plot certainly thickens. I see my own test as bold-faced, just as it should be. Then why is every one elses wrong (on my screen)?

Being ever observant I noticed that I can see SOME bold-facings and not others, and I wonder what the difference is. Looking at the two very first posts in this thread, the first post has bold-faced headlines, just as it should. The second has wrong headlines. Here's the HTML for one headline from each post:
First post: Two Handed Voicings
Second post: NOTATION CONVENTIONS IN THIS THREAD[/b]
Is no one else at all experiencing this?
EDIT: Sigh, you probably need to look at the source to see what I mean. During preview (using HTML as markup) it showed the html tags as would be expected, but it seems to have replaced it when actually showing the post. In the below text I've replaced bigger than and less than tags with regular parentheses.
First post: (span style="font-weight: bold")Two Handed Voicings(/span)
Second post: (img src="/forum/images/graemlins/default/burn.gif" alt="" title="b" height="22" width="15" /)NOTATION CONVENTIONS IN THIS THREAD[/b]
(Seeing as this is quickly becoming way off topic, I'll wait for an answer and if such an answer warrants further posts about this, I'll find a more suitable thread to carry on in. Sorry.)
EDIT2: Also it seems that all formatting for this post has gone out the window. Sorry for that. it looks as it should during preview.

Thanks jazzwee for an awesome posting. I love learning my classical pieces, but I would love to learn a little jazz. Your posting gives me a chance to work through the material and have a chance to ask a question if I get stuck. It is a wonderful gift to the piano world epecially beginnner like myself. Thanks.

Hey guys, this thread is still active. So everyone is still welcome to participate though it's been years. Nothing here is out of date. I don't think I would do anything differently than what's stated.

But I'll post some newer version of Autumn Leaves and ATTYA just to keep the thread going.

Michael, you are welcome. Elendil, your forum formatting questions are beyond my pay grade so can't help you there. But most people really would just rather read the PDF (though there are errors in some spots).

What an interesing thread. I just came across the chords for Autumn Leaves in G, and it seems lie the song is a piece of art like Mona Lisa. It is built on circle of fifth, melody srtarts where the last chord's root is, etc... Very nice.

I played it pretty straight. But now that i think about it, the fact that i was only using a sheet with the chords and words?? Well, i guess i could just say i didn't put too much mustard on it. Keepin it melancholy

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

Hey there Jazzwee,

What a beautiful thread you have right here!Yesterday I've read the first 9 lessons, today I've read the 5 Theory lessons and the last thing I read was Two Handed Voicings - Practice Strategy Part 1-5. So thanks for letting me spend those hours of my life with good reason.. time wel spent

Anyway, since I started piano lessons (2 years ago) my teacher (also) began to teach me Jazz. To bad I moved and don't have the teacher anymore but he gave me so much theory and stuff. This way I can follow exactly what you say.

Anyway, Jazz really is difficult.. all the theory.. all the voicings.. all the practising. It's really hard to practise all 2-5-1 in all keys, all voicings in all keys etc. it's so much and takes so much time. Sometimes I just don't know how to really practice efficiently with all the theory.

A few questions (didn't read al 121 pages so big chance already been asked):Lesson 7- My teacher tought me to play major 7 rootless as: 3-5-7-9 (or inverted). You teach to play it as 3-5-6-9. Is there a certain reason for it (I know they can be replaced but still, why does one teach the 6 other than the 5)? The other rootless chords he thought are exactly the same as yours.Two handed voicing- These are a lot combinations to practice. What I tend to do is: melody on RH pinky, "rootless" chord under it (in the rest of the RH), bassnote in pinky LH, add a 5/7/9 in LH (what is possible, or sounds better). This way I have LH:Bass+Extra ChordnotesRH:Rootless chord + melodyWhat do you think of this approach? I came up with it myself, not my teacher. I did this because I know my rootless voicings, to put it "under" the melody is just a step of figuring out if I have to use the A or B inversion.

The biggest problem is mayb the "double" notes or "to much notes in right hand"? Let's say the first A min chord in autumn leaves. If I play strictly the way I explained it will come out like:LH: (1)A {(5)E} (7)G {(9)B} (where 5 and 9 are optional, I never play 1-5-7-9, most of the time 1-7, 1-5-7 or 1-7-9)RH: (3)C (5)E (7)G (9)B + Melody note (3)C

Now C is doubled, B can be double, if I play E in RH it can be doubled... I tend to leave out the B in RH cause it's so close to the melody note.

Lesson 7- My teacher tought me to play major 7 rootless as: 3-5-7-9 (or inverted). You teach to play it as 3-5-6-9. Is there a certain reason for it (I know they can be replaced but still, why does one teach the 6 other than the 5)? The other rootless chords he thought are exactly the same as yours.

The answer is that aside from giving it a little extra color, it also has the best voice leading; your hand moves with less motion.

So jazz pianists will use this a lot. It may also be because 3 5 7 9 is easier to explain. This is actually known as a (9)(13) voicing. I'm sure I use it more often than not.

If you do a ii-V-I, you will see the flow is better as well and of course it has a more Bill Evans sound to it.

Originally Posted By: Lost Woods

Two handed voicing- These are a lot combinations to practice. What I tend to do is: melody on RH pinky, "rootless" chord under it (in the rest of the RH), bassnote in pinky LH, add a 5/7/9 in LH (what is possible, or sounds better). This way I have LH:Bass+Extra ChordnotesRH:Rootless chord + melodyWhat do you think of this approach? I came up with it myself, not my teacher. I did this because I know my rootless voicings, to put it "under" the melody is just a step of figuring out if I have to use the A or B inversion.

There are many approaches and when you're playing in a combo, I would play rootless in the LH. But in solo piano this can't be overused as it sounds hollow without the fullness of the sound of the lower registers. So in typical solo playing mode, you'd mix everything you said with this style and this style being kind of the base method. It's important to learn how to do this because you see the keyboard differently.

Being able to naturally play 2 handed voicings is a difficult skill. But it is a jazz pianist's staple so you have to learn both rootless and rooted.

To add some texture to the discussion ... yes, everyone knows that jazz piano left-hand styles are taught with a pretty much common set of "voicings." It's good to know these kinds of voicings. They're very very useful! They've been in common use for 50+ years. They're not going away anytime soon! Actually, A & B versions of chords (the terminology, that is) comes from John Mehegan's 4-volume set of books that he published 50 years ago, more or less! Astounding that this stuff has been out there for that long!

Something to add to this is how great pianists use "voice leading" to get to their chord voicings The voice leading "Bible" is Bach's collection of 371 4-part chorales (http://www.amazon.co.uk/371-Harmonized-C...8606&sr=8-1). The chorales show how to be very particular with "which" voice goes "where." They demonstrate a million ways to harmonize and reharmonize simple chord progressions. And they show how to REALLY use inversions and emphasise moving inner (and outer) lines.

I'm mentioning this because in the beginning fixed chord voicings are helpful for learning - no doubt about it. But, at the same time, a goal right from the beginning can be to see how some voices (tones) move from one chord to another and others are fixed. And how some voices voices can be embellished or emphasised and some can be left out altogether.

- My teacher tought me to play major 7 rootless as: 3-5-7-9 (or inverted). You teach to play it as 3-5-6-9. Is there a certain reason for it (I know they can be replaced but still, why does one teach the 6 other than the 5)?

The reason I use it is two fold: it has to do with overtones, playing the 6 (in the LH voicing) instead of using the 7 (we're talking Maj7 chords), is "calmer" and leaves room for the 7 (in the RH solo) and the 9 to ring. If I'm comping then it depends on what the other does, sometimes playing the 7 gets in the way of the soloists lines.

And of course on standard A/B rootless, 9 becomes 6 on ii-V (without moving) so it's easy to memorize.

But I've always been taught, as printer1 indicated, that this should not be perceived as just memorized chords. You have to learn to apply each voicing case by case and be aware of the melody note conflicts, extensions, etc.

This is why two handed voicings are important because it really forces you to think of the whole keyboard among multiple registers so you don't choose to voice a chord just by muscle memory. Then, you will realize too that this facility to visualize chord tones anywhere translates to better solos.

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

I understand what you mean, thanks does make a lote of sense. Though one way ore the other I think I got used to the "maj 7" sound, but it's nice to change it up Quick question: Creating walking basslines over a piece like All of me. I struggle to create (good) basslines over 2 bars of the same chords.. and @ leadsheet All of me the first 14 bars are chords spread out over 2 bars. Any tips?

For walking bass lines, I use roots, diatonic paasing tones, diatonic approach tones, chromatic passing tones, and chorod tones. So for the first 8 measures in All of Me, I might play it as for C6: C D E F G E C D. For E7: E D B A G# A B G# For A7: A D C# D E A B C# For Dm7: D F B A E D E F

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

Yeah ty for quick response (sorry for asking so much)I'm struggling a bit cause I use to play root note on the first beat. In other words it will come out for me something like:Cmaj7 -> C-E-G-B C-B-G-D#E7 -> E-G#-B-D E-D-C-B-(1/8Bb)A -> A-C#(lower)-E-G A-G-F-D(1/8C#)D -> D-C-B-A G-F-E-D#E

But because the chord takes two bars need to focus on another firt tone than the root on the second bar.