New Year, same old problems - short bench, no big men....

And thus starts a new year for Duke BBall. We think we're ok, since we scrimmage against ourselves, or take on an undersized Davidson, and play just about everyone. Now we played a real game, and the same old warts pop out. Granted Parker is a beast, and can play anywhere, and Hood is not far behind, but that is it. Maybe there is an under-development of the 15 to 21 feet of Plumblee left, maybe there is a lack of recruiting of a real big man. We'll do fine until we meet another big team in the Tourney. The posts here will be a delusional as every other year that we're great, but this isn't going to be 'our year'....

And thus starts a new year for Duke BBall. We think we're ok, since we scrimmage against ourselves, or take on an undersized Davidson, and play just about everyone. Now we played a real game, and the same old warts pop out. Granted Parker is a beast, and can play anywhere, and Hood is not far behind, but that is it. Maybe there is an under-development of the 15 to 21 feet of Plumblee left, maybe there is a lack of recruiting of a real big man. We'll do fine until we meet another big team in the Tourney. The posts here will be a delusional as every other year that we're great, but this isn't going to be 'our year'....

— Posted by dukefanv12

2 games and you have the GALL to define the entire season. Kansas won that game in the last 4 minutes, not because of who had bigs or a deep bench. Kansas hit overdrive in their transition and Duke had the wheels fall off at the same time. Duke have their fair share of tall players and Duke has a good, solid bench. Your conclusions are premature and based on supposition. Claiming your negativity as honesty and calling other posters as &quot;delusional&quot; looks suspiciously like the ruse of a pretender. I question your Duke Fan status.

I could have sworn that Duke won a national title with 6'9&quot; Boozer playing center and played for another national title with 6'9&quot; Brand at center. As always I could be wrong but don't ever bet on it.

And thus starts a new year for Duke BBall. We think we're ok, since we scrimmage against ourselves, or take on an undersized Davidson, and play just about everyone. Now we played a real game, and the same old warts pop out. Granted Parker is a beast, and can play anywhere, and Hood is not far behind, but that is it. Maybe there is an under-development of the 15 to 21 feet of Plumblee left, maybe there is a lack of recruiting of a real big man. We'll do fine until we meet another big team in the Tourney. The posts here will be a delusional as every other year that we're great, but this isn't going to be 'our year'....

— Posted by dukefanv12

2 games and you have the GALL to define the entire season. Kansas won that game in the last 4 minutes, not because of who had bigs or a deep bench. Kansas hit overdrive in their transition and Duke had the wheels fall off at the same time. Duke have their fair share of tall players and Duke has a good, solid bench. Your conclusions are premature and based on supposition. Claiming your negativity as honesty and calling other posters as "delusional" looks suspiciously like the ruse of a pretender. I question your Duke Fan status.

— Posted by seedofdoubt

Our two best players have to be our scorers (Cook, Thonrton,Jefferson, Sulaimon can't carry that load), defend the teams other power players, and rebound. Just too much to ask against another team with many bigs. We'll win the ACC, and be a top ranked team, as we usually are, but it doesn't dismiss, or negate that we don't have a Boozer or Brand presence, and teams are going to attempt to exploit that weakness.

As for the bench, my opinion, is that they should have played significant minutes in the Davidson game - as much as the starters. Develop them when he can... K just chooses not to. Another weakness.

You called this Gall. It isn't. Having the ability to objectively look at, and provide unemotional constructive comments about the team, does not dismiss the ability to be a true fan. I think it makes me MORE a fan than the rest who can't. (yes, read this as YOU)

I understand where you're coming from, and you make a valid argument. The difference is, Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game. That, and I'm with you on this one, Coach K doesn't play them as much as he should. How they went the entire game against Kansas without playing Dawkins is baffling. He should have at least gotten 10 minutes in that contest. Maybe it would have made a difference, maybe it wouldn't have...but we (the fans / almuni) want to know what we have on the bench, and we cannot make that determination by never seeing them play. Matt Jones played what, 2-3 minutes? Had no chance to get in the game before he was pulled. Semi didn't play, either.

With all those shooters on the bench, it's highly, highly unlikely all of them will be cold at the same time. Either way, Coach K knows what he's doing, and I trust his judgement over my own as I don't get the pleasure of seeing the players practice every day.

I understand where you're coming from, and you make a valid argument. The difference is, Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game. That, and I'm with you on this one, Coach K doesn't play them as much as he should. How they went the entire game against Kansas without playing Dawkins is baffling. He should have at least gotten 10 minutes in that contest. Maybe it would have made a difference, maybe it wouldn't have...but we (the fans / almuni) want to know what we have on the bench, and we cannot make that determination by never seeing them play. Matt Jones played what, 2-3 minutes? Had no chance to get in the game before he was pulled. Semi didn't play, either.

With all those shooters on the bench, it's highly, highly unlikely all of them will be cold at the same time. Either way, Coach K knows what he's doing, and I trust his judgement over my own as I don't get the pleasure of seeing the players practice every day.

— Posted by Tizu

Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game

Isn't that the definition of a short bench? Players who cannot be productive when call on to play?

And thus starts a new year for Duke BBall. We think we're ok, since we scrimmage against ourselves, or take on an undersized Davidson, and play just about everyone. Now we played a real game, and the same old warts pop out. Granted Parker is a beast, and can play anywhere, and Hood is not far behind, but that is it. Maybe there is an under-development of the 15 to 21 feet of Plumblee left, maybe there is a lack of recruiting of a real big man. We'll do fine until we meet another big team in the Tourney. The posts here will be a delusional as every other year that we're great, but this isn't going to be 'our year'....

— Posted by dukefanv12

Good Ole Hans.....instead of trolling State boards today he has made his way back to Duke boards.

I understand where you're coming from, and you make a valid argument. The difference is, Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game. That, and I'm with you on this one, Coach K doesn't play them as much as he should. How they went the entire game against Kansas without playing Dawkins is baffling. He should have at least gotten 10 minutes in that contest. Maybe it would have made a difference, maybe it wouldn't have...but we (the fans / almuni) want to know what we have on the bench, and we cannot make that determination by never seeing them play. Matt Jones played what, 2-3 minutes? Had no chance to get in the game before he was pulled. Semi didn't play, either.

With all those shooters on the bench, it's highly, highly unlikely all of them will be cold at the same time. Either way, Coach K knows what he's doing, and I trust his judgement over my own as I don't get the pleasure of seeing the players practice every day.

— Posted by Tizu

Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game

Isn't that the definition of a short bench? Players who cannot be productive when call on to play?

I understand where you're coming from, and you make a valid argument. The difference is, Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game. That, and I'm with you on this one, Coach K doesn't play them as much as he should. How they went the entire game against Kansas without playing Dawkins is baffling. He should have at least gotten 10 minutes in that contest. Maybe it would have made a difference, maybe it wouldn't have...but we (the fans / almuni) want to know what we have on the bench, and we cannot make that determination by never seeing them play. Matt Jones played what, 2-3 minutes? Had no chance to get in the game before he was pulled. Semi didn't play, either.

With all those shooters on the bench, it's highly, highly unlikely all of them will be cold at the same time. Either way, Coach K knows what he's doing, and I trust his judgement over my own as I don't get the pleasure of seeing the players practice every day.

— Posted by Tizu

Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game

Isn't that the definition of a short bench? Players who cannot be productive when call on to play?

— Posted by The truth about MERCER!

They have some players on the bench with potential to be contributors. But Coach K won't ever play a player unless they earn playing time in practice. Plumlee and Murphy got in the game the other night but as soon as they made mistakes, they were done for the night with the exception of Murphy coming back in after Jabari fouled out and the game was out of reach. It's still a long season with lots of time for the rotation to change.

And thus starts a new year for Duke BBall. We think we're ok, since we scrimmage against ourselves, or take on an undersized Davidson, and play just about everyone. Now we played a real game, and the same old warts pop out. Granted Parker is a beast, and can play anywhere, and Hood is not far behind, but that is it. Maybe there is an under-development of the 15 to 21 feet of Plumblee left, maybe there is a lack of recruiting of a real big man. We'll do fine until we meet another big team in the Tourney. The posts here will be a delusional as every other year that we're great, but this isn't going to be 'our year'....

— Posted by dukefanv12

2 games and you have the GALL to define the entire season. Kansas won that game in the last 4 minutes, not because of who had bigs or a deep bench. Kansas hit overdrive in their transition and Duke had the wheels fall off at the same time. Duke have their fair share of tall players and Duke has a good, solid bench. Your conclusions are premature and based on supposition. Claiming your negativity as honesty and calling other posters as "delusional" looks suspiciously like the ruse of a pretender. I question your Duke Fan status.

— Posted by seedofdoubt

Our two best players have to be our scorers (Cook, Thonrton,Jefferson, Sulaimon can't carry that load), defend the teams other power players, and rebound. Just too much to ask against another team with many bigs. We'll win the ACC, and be a top ranked team, as we usually are, but it doesn't dismiss, or negate that we don't have a Boozer or Brand presence, and teams are going to attempt to exploit that weakness.

As for the bench, my opinion, is that they should have played significant minutes in the Davidson game - as much as the starters. Develop them when he can... K just chooses not to. Another weakness.

You called this Gall. It isn't. Having the ability to objectively look at, and provide unemotional constructive comments about the team, does not dismiss the ability to be a true fan. I think it makes me MORE a fan than the rest who can't. (yes, read this as YOU)

BTW (can't resist)... how big is Lutz?

— Posted by dukefanv12

I don't know that I've ever seen &quot;ability to provide objective analysis about a team&quot; as one of the qualities of a &quot;true fan&quot;. Be that as it may, I'm sure your abilities would be invaluable to AD Kevin White. He needs somebody to mentor his young, inexperienced coach as he learns his craft. I'm sure he'd appreciate your insights into how K could better utilize his bench.

I understand where you're coming from, and you make a valid argument. The difference is, Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game. That, and I'm with you on this one, Coach K doesn't play them as much as he should. How they went the entire game against Kansas without playing Dawkins is baffling. He should have at least gotten 10 minutes in that contest. Maybe it would have made a difference, maybe it wouldn't have...but we (the fans / almuni) want to know what we have on the bench, and we cannot make that determination by never seeing them play. Matt Jones played what, 2-3 minutes? Had no chance to get in the game before he was pulled. Semi didn't play, either.

With all those shooters on the bench, it's highly, highly unlikely all of them will be cold at the same time. Either way, Coach K knows what he's doing, and I trust his judgement over my own as I don't get the pleasure of seeing the players practice every day.

— Posted by Tizu

Duke does not actually have a short bench, they are pretty deep. The problem is, those that are on the bench (when they do get in the game) don't show their worth while in the game

Isn't that the definition of a short bench? Players who cannot be productive when call on to play?

— Posted by The truth about MERCER!

My point, for those not intellectually challenged, was that they don't get to play long enough to prove their worth. Practice is one thing, in game is another. They will never get the experience needed to play more in games if they don't get to...play in games.

But I wouldn't expect some of you to be able to pick up on that. Sorry for not being clear enough for the Kindergartner's.

One reason coaches schedule what are sometimes derisively called &quot;cupcakes&quot; is to provide opportunities for their young players to get on the court for more than mop up duty. Clearly, Tuesday's game didn't qualify as such an opportunity.

Duke used basically an 8 man rotation against Davidson. Of the four players who didn't play as much, only Ojeleye is new to the system. The others (Dawkins, Murphy and Plumlee) have had time to show what they can do, and I can only assume that the coaches feel there is something lacking. Maybe it's effort, maybe it's conditioning, maybe it's health. Maybe they just aren't as good as the 8 players who got 90% of the minutes. Whatever it is, I trust the Duke staff to get it right. This isn't their first rodeo.

The time the bench players get in practice, going against the starting five, is when they have the chance to develop and prove they are capable of playing against real opponents like Kansas. Coach K has always said he doesn't waste a minute of game time on players that haven't proven themselves in practice. He would rather 'fine tune' the unit that is definitely proven than to play someone that hadn't earned that playing time in practice...

The time the bench players get in practice, going against the starting five, is when they have the chance to develop and prove they are capable of playing against real opponents like Kansas. Coach K has always said he doesn't waste a minute of game time on players that haven't proven themselves in practice. He would rather 'fine tune' the unit that is definitely proven than to play someone that hadn't earned that playing time in practice...

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

And that results in two things. a short bench, and the undevelopment of players...

which then results in either, if the 'choosen' players play at the top level every game, they have a good season, and when they don't... we have Lehigh.

The time the bench players get in practice, going against the starting five, is when they have the chance to develop and prove they are capable of playing against real opponents like Kansas. Coach K has always said he doesn't waste a minute of game time on players that haven't proven themselves in practice. He would rather 'fine tune' the unit that is definitely proven than to play someone that hadn't earned that playing time in practice...

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

And that results in two things. a short bench, and the undevelopment of players...

which then results in either, if the 'choosen' players play at the top level every game, they have a good season, and when they don't... we have Lehigh.

The time the bench players get in practice, going against the starting five, is when they have the chance to develop and prove they are capable of playing against real opponents like Kansas. Coach K has always said he doesn't waste a minute of game time on players that haven't proven themselves in practice. He would rather 'fine tune' the unit that is definitely proven than to play someone that hadn't earned that playing time in practice...

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

And that results in two things. a short bench, and the undevelopment of players...

which then results in either, if the 'choosen' players play at the top level every game, they have a good season, and when they don't... we have Lehigh.

And I'd really like to avoid another Lehigh....

— Posted by dukefanv12

The only thing I care about, after the Kansas game Tuesday, is finding a rotation that's good enough to score more than them if we play them again in April. It's more than likely that that rotation won't include Murphy or Plumlee unless they can prove themselves in practice and earn their way into that rotation.

The time the bench players get in practice, going against the starting five, is when they have the chance to develop and prove they are capable of playing against real opponents like Kansas. Coach K has always said he doesn't waste a minute of game time on players that haven't proven themselves in practice. He would rather 'fine tune' the unit that is definitely proven than to play someone that hadn't earned that playing time in practice...

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

And that results in two things. a short bench, and the undevelopment of players...

which then results in either, if the 'choosen' players play at the top level every game, they have a good season, and when they don't... we have Lehigh.

And I'd really like to avoid another Lehigh....

— Posted by dukefanv12

The only thing I care about, after the Kansas game Tuesday, is finding a rotation that's good enough to score more than them if we play them again in April. It's more than likely that that rotation won't include Murphy or Plumlee unless they can prove themselves in practice and earn their way into that rotation.

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

If we are truly there, and players like Murphy and Plumblee don't come to fruition, we're not going to be able to score more points than Kansas next time, and we don't have the team to beat MSU or UK in March either.

There is no one else to improve the rotation.

Yet to see what other teams develop from the next set, but they all are going to improve, and we're stuck with .... Oh... a short bench, and no big men.....

The time the bench players get in practice, going against the starting five, is when they have the chance to develop and prove they are capable of playing against real opponents like Kansas. Coach K has always said he doesn't waste a minute of game time on players that haven't proven themselves in practice. He would rather 'fine tune' the unit that is definitely proven than to play someone that hadn't earned that playing time in practice...

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

And that results in two things. a short bench, and the undevelopment of players...

which then results in either, if the 'choosen' players play at the top level every game, they have a good season, and when they don't... we have Lehigh.

And I'd really like to avoid another Lehigh....

— Posted by dukefanv12

The only thing I care about, after the Kansas game Tuesday, is finding a rotation that's good enough to score more than them if we play them again in April. It's more than likely that that rotation won't include Murphy or Plumlee unless they can prove themselves in practice and earn their way into that rotation.

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

If we are truly there, and players like Murphy and Plumblee don't come to fruition, we're not going to be able to score more points than Kansas next time, and we don't have the team to beat MSU or UK in March either.

There is no one else to improve the rotation.

Yet to see what other teams develop from the next set, but they all are going to improve, and we're stuck with .... Oh... a short bench, and no big men.....

— Posted by dukefanv12

nope. the hope is that the current rotation improves at a faster rate than the other contenders and duke will be in a position to beat anyone in the country on any given night come april...

The time the bench players get in practice, going against the starting five, is when they have the chance to develop and prove they are capable of playing against real opponents like Kansas. Coach K has always said he doesn't waste a minute of game time on players that haven't proven themselves in practice. He would rather 'fine tune' the unit that is definitely proven than to play someone that hadn't earned that playing time in practice...

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

And that results in two things. a short bench, and the undevelopment of players...

which then results in either, if the 'choosen' players play at the top level every game, they have a good season, and when they don't... we have Lehigh.

And I'd really like to avoid another Lehigh....

— Posted by dukefanv12

The only thing I care about, after the Kansas game Tuesday, is finding a rotation that's good enough to score more than them if we play them again in April. It's more than likely that that rotation won't include Murphy or Plumlee unless they can prove themselves in practice and earn their way into that rotation.

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

If we are truly there, and players like Murphy and Plumblee don't come to fruition, we're not going to be able to score more points than Kansas next time, and we don't have the team to beat MSU or UK in March either.

There is no one else to improve the rotation.

Yet to see what other teams develop from the next set, but they all are going to improve, and we're stuck with .... Oh... a short bench, and no big men.....

— Posted by dukefanv12

Good post from a true fan who is genuinely concerned. this is why coach k has never enjoyed the high level of success of Dean or Roy.

My point, for those not intellectually challenged, was that they don't get to play long enough to prove their worth. Practice is one thing, in game is another. They will never get the experience needed to play more in games if they don't get to...play in games.

Good point, Tizu. Game play IS very different than practice. Have to ask...why did Duke decide to drive to the basket the last 2 minutes instead of looking for the 3? Not asking anyone to be K, but it did seem odd.

As a UNC man i have to give it to Duke and say you have an awesome team and hands down the best coach around. As far as this season it is very early and i think you guys will be just fine and have a great chance at number 5. You have a very young team and it will take all season to grow. Good Luck, i am not looking forward to playing you guys this year.

My point, for those not intellectually challenged, was that they don't get to play long enough to prove their worth. Practice is one thing, in game is another. They will never get the experience needed to play more in games if they don't get to...play in games.

Good point, Tizu. Game play IS very different than practice. Have to ask...why did Duke decide to drive to the basket the last 2 minutes instead of looking for the 3? Not asking anyone to be K, but it did seem odd.

— Posted by seedofdoubt

maybe because of all the fouls being called....get to the line. But we shot those horrible.

It's still early. So far one game against Davidson and one game against KU. I don't have any problem with the way minutes were given out against KU because KU was a winnable game only if the very best players exceeded or matched their expected number of minutes.

My point, for those not intellectually challenged, was that they don't get to play long enough to prove their worth. Practice is one thing, in game is another. They will never get the experience needed to play more in games if they don't get to...play in games.

Good point, Tizu. Game play IS very different than practice. Have to ask...why did Duke decide to drive to the basket the last 2 minutes instead of looking for the 3? Not asking anyone to be K, but it did seem odd.

— Posted by seedofdoubt

maybe because of all the fouls being called....get to the line. But we shot those horrible.

It's still early. So far one game against Davidson and one game against KU. I don't have any problem with the way minutes were given out against KU because KU was a winnable game only if the very best players exceeded or matched their expected number of minutes.

12 guys played. Maybe K has changed his stubborn ways about playing bench players in real game situations...

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

You never do &quot;Get it&quot;... In an excellent opportunity to see how ALL of his players are developing in a GAME situation, he plays 8-12 a total of 36 minutes, or the average of 7 minutes each. It should have been more like 20 minutes each.

It's still early. So far one game against Davidson and one game against KU. I don't have any problem with the way minutes were given out against KU because KU was a winnable game only if the very best players exceeded or matched their expected number of minutes.

12 guys played. Maybe K has changed his stubborn ways about playing bench players in real game situations...

— Posted by 903 Hook em banned

You never do "Get it"... In an excellent opportunity to see how ALL of his players are developing in a GAME situation, he plays 8-12 a total of 36 minutes, or the average of 7 minutes each. It should have been more like 20 minutes each.

So it doesn't look like K has changed his stubborn ways.

— Posted by dukefanv12

In an excellent opportunity to see how ALL of his players are developing in a GAME situation, he plays 8-12 a total of 36 minutes, or the average of 7 minutes each. It should have been more like 20 minutes each.

My point, for those not intellectually challenged, was that they don't get to play long enough to prove their worth. Practice is one thing, in game is another. They will never get the experience needed to play more in games if they don't get to...play in games.

Good point, Tizu. Game play IS very different than practice. Have to ask...why did Duke decide to drive to the basket the last 2 minutes instead of looking for the 3? Not asking anyone to be K, but it did seem odd.

— Posted by seedofdoubt

maybe because of all the fouls being called....get to the line. But we shot those horrible.

And thus starts a new year for Duke BBall. We think we're ok, since we scrimmage against ourselves, or take on an undersized Davidson, and play just about everyone. Now we played a real game, and the same old warts pop out. Granted Parker is a beast, and can play anywhere, and Hood is not far behind, but that is it. Maybe there is an under-development of the 15 to 21 feet of Plumblee left, maybe there is a lack of recruiting of a real big man. We'll do fine until we meet another big team in the Tourney. The posts here will be a delusional as every other year that we're great, but this isn't going to be 'our year'....

— Posted by dukefanv12

I wouldn't jump off the bandwagon because Duke had a bad night at the line against a legit final 4 contender. Every team has areas to improve in. Duke is no different. Duke could have won that game if a couple of small things change. It is not like Duke got manhandled. This is not the same ole Duke team. Give me a break dude.

"Those watching Tuesday’s Champions Classic noticed that the Blue Devils were using 6-8 Jabari Parker as their center, an indication of their lack of quality depth inside" - Roger Kuznia - Sporting News

— Posted by dukefanv12

So...Amile, Josh, and Marshall account for 38 minutes in that game and would usually be in the 5 spot but Jabari was playing center? Seems odd, does it not? Sure looked like Jabari was out around the 3 point line quite a lot. He was defending Ellis at different points in the game, perhaps that was what Kuznia was alluding to.

"Those watching Tuesday’s Champions Classic noticed that the Blue Devils were using 6-8 Jabari Parker as their center, an indication of their lack of quality depth inside" - Roger Kuznia - Sporting News

— Posted by dukefanv12

So...Amile, Josh, and Marshall account for 38 minutes in that game and would usually be in the 5 spot but Jabari was playing center? Seems odd, does it not? Sure looked like Jabari was out around the 3 point line quite a lot. He was defending Ellis at different points in the game, perhaps that was what Kuznia was alluding to.

— Posted by seedofdoubt

Jefferson and Hairston are NOT, but any stretch of the imagination, a significant center presence... Plumblee has the size, but has, in my opinion, been underdeveloped while at Duke, and doesn't play like a center with presence.