The tic-tac incident

Before commenting, please remember: This is NOT targeting the "open minded" but the deluded.

3.75

Average: 3.8(4 votes)

Comments

skeptoid(Long Spike)

"It would be like traveling instellar distances to watch children play in a bath tub." I agree that there's nothing about the Tic Tac UFO incident that gives significant weight to the alien visitation hypothesis, but statements like these are the height of arrogance. We don't know how aliens see the universe or ourselves - he is assuming aliens would be much more intelligent versions of ourselves. Why? I don't assume that, nor do I assume if aliens had the capacity to travel here that would mean they are as we are to dogs or insects. Such statements sit atop a flimsly house built from a deck of assumptions.

Once again, this is not "another" opinion but the same opinion from the same person posted again by yourself. I can post three or four different opinions on these videos, including skeptical analysis much better than this. When I watch these videos, I keep waiting for this guy to get to something interesting and he never does. His shallow understanding of the subject matter and the "community" he thinks he's targeting causes him to mistate himself repeatedly. Like right now I'm at 7 minutes and it's just poorly edited sound effects and music with sardonic inflection talking about infrared, stating obvious things as he goes.

So now I have to fast forward to the point where he addresses what he's asserting here by implication although he's too cowardly to do it explicitly - that Commander Fraver and his wingmates, and another flight and their wingmates, a dozen or so personnel on a AC-3, and on and on, all who saw it with they their eyes up close, are lying or insane. This was confirmed by Fraver by eye and then later captured on high resolution taken by his wingmate (maybe his wingmate filmed a bird or a jet, or something else entirely - that's a possibility, although Fraver says in the hi-res cut it's well-defined tic tac and it's exactly what he saw). Fraver and his flight engaged in a turning maneuver with the craft. The craft flew directly in front of Fraver's craft. Fraver's female copilot was apparently traumatized by the experience according to the full-length version of the vid below.

We're at 10 minutes and he still hasn't addressed the only thing that matters - it's all aliens and whatever he thinks is "Ufology". Will fast-forward to see if he addresses the evidence - OMG at around 30:20 Fraver is sitting there giving his testamony and among the many hypotheses put forth he mentions alien visitation and this idiot responds immediately "Or maybe the pod jostled". Fraver didn't view the object through a display or capture it on a pod - he engaged the object along with his wingmates by eye - visual contact. It was a follow-up flight that captured the video, and there is a hi-res version of that capture apparently that isn't being released (Fraver again- remember none of these vids were originally cleared for release except via questionable loophole). It's as if this guy didn't listen to the pilot testimony - all he does is talk about infrared and aliens. This is awful Daft Cunt - you need to stop admiring this guy he's lol likely half the reason you are so poor at objective reasoning.

Let me know if there's a timecode in here somewhere where this guy addresses the actual event and pilot testimony. And, LOL, I'm sorry dude but this guy is just batshit terrified of aliens - even within ufology you'd be hard pressed to find obsession at this guy's level holy shit!

Again, like I said in the other thread, the only thing that matters here - what makes this different - is the testimony of the pilots regarding the encounter and its official sanction in terms of the Pentagon unofficially first and then this month officially confirming the video is authentic. The video and testimony can be examined as two completely separate artifacts regardless of what the Pentagon or Fraver say, but then you're wading into "this is a gov psy-op" or "Fraver and his cohorts are lying sociopaths" territory and I'm not really seeing that here. I'm going to post the testimony here for you again. Last time you hilariously said "The pilot said he doesn't know what it is" and therefore "anything would be a wild guess." LOL Yes Daft Cunt it's okay just because the experience these pilots had was almost certainly real doesn't mean ergo aliens are visiting. Yes there are several clues in this testimony pointing strongly towards the man-made hypothesis. In this discussion I'm trying to get to a place where we can talk about that hypothesis, but it's gotta be baby steps with you. That CAP station thing? There's a lot here that fits with a man-made craft flown or operated by humans if its anything at all, assuming Fraver and the two dozen or so other eye witnesses are not lying or engaged in a government conspiracy. Watch it again - then explain to me where in the video above this event and what they describe is debunked (sorry have to give your guy 1 star this time instead of 3 for effort - he has to be conscious at this point that he's avoiding the issues as he did with Ben Davidson)?

Oh and to answer your question from the other thread, the woman's face is blacked out and voice slightly altered because she is terrified of folks like you and the guy who made the video above. She had an experience that was real and terrifying in itself and she knows if she talks about it and is identified she will be ridiculed by people like you. She's also likely terrified of alien enouncter nuts who think they have been appointed adjuct ambassador to the galactic federation of reptilians and come knocking looking to debrief her LOL - there are plenty of reasons for her to black out her face. Commander Fraver, based on his testimony here and on JRE, has "Fearless Personality Condition", very clearly. Clearcut cases like his are really obvious. It's always the quiet, mild-mannered ones you have to look out for lol....

You can sweet talk this to yourself as long as you like, facts remain:

Footage is cut short for no apparent reason and does not correspond to statements of the eye witnesses.

I can't speak for the producer of the video but neither he nor I did "ridicule" the lady or the pilots for their observations. The only thing that deserves ridicule are the unfounded conclusions of the "ufologists" insisting "it must be alien".

So for the clear thinking observer of the evidence the conclusions would be:
Infrared footage inconclusive, however, similar to that of a a plane.
Witness statements inconclusive.

The video he reviews isnt the tic tac account. David Fravors account had no video footage. Thunderfoot, as much as I love him, conflated the two events. This footage was from the pilot who went out after Fravor reported in about UFOs. Totally different events.

The video explicitly says - Fraver actually says - to paraphrase "my buddy went out with a pod and captured it" and then they show the video. There is no statement that the video shows the specific event Fraver is recounting that he himself experienced. That's abundantly clear - the details are laid out unambiguously. The only way a person can be as confused as you and the video creator is if they don't actually research the topic and pay attention to detail. The agenda is pre-set - "Aliens can't be visiting us." The result is that you both miss or misunderstand the detail or the subject matter and render the analysis pretty much useless. The "community" this guy is targeting - the folks who believe aliens are here and perhaps they are in contact with them and so on: Those idiots for the most part DON'T believe these Pentagon reports and consider all of it to be a fake gov psy-op because of the history of Ufology and how the gov has manipulated that community. So the hilarious thing here is that there is no homogeneous "Ufology community" that "believes aliens are here because of the Pentagon" release. That is a minority position among the "Galactic Federation" types, and I don't think you or this guy above even realize that. This video is poorly researched, flawed in its argumentation, and targeted towards ridiculing a hypothetical audience or group of "believers" that don't really exist in this context. Fascinating.

It is related - how many times do we need to explain it to you? I do understand now that it isn't a deliberate obtuseness on your or your friend's part. You really don't understand. I just can't believe you're incapable of comprehending - but I think there a lot like you and it explains one reason why we're so retarded as a society in the West.

I'll try again - Fraver and his wingmates had a direct, visual, close engagement with the tic tac object. When he got back with his wing they reported the incident (actually reported it during, as it was happening). The next group that went up had a recon pod on one of the planes. They went looking for the tic tac and took the video you see. Do you understand now?

I'm not butthurt at all I ENJOY this - don't you get that? Just by conversing with you it becomes incredibly clear that you don't understand this topic, the incident, the various approaches to UAP phenomena, what the Pentagon does and does not claim, and on and on. And neither does the creator above. The singular focus on aliens - seems to drive the fear based reasoning. That's my bag man - I look for these psychological states and the cognitive dissonance that goes with them and then study the subject. Thank you for letting me study you. To recap:

No one here is stating the tic tac UFO incident indicates alien visitation.

95% of the UFO community, from kooks to academics, do not believe for various reasons the tic tac UFO indicates alien visitation. Some academics put forth the alien hypothesis, but hold others as more probable usually. The paranoid "aliens are here and I know them" crowd almost universally disbelieve the account because it comes from the military and former intelligence operatives.

Your friend and you are the only sources here presenting a bizarre representation of what a "monolithic" "pathetic" UFO community "believes" about the tic tac incident. So just so we're clear it's really interesting to me to see this poorly reasoned and researched "debunk" video aimed at an audience that doesn't exist, not in relation to this incident. The entire thing is in your heads - that's amazing!

Can we continue? Why is it that you think the only two interpretations for the craft witnessed and engaged by highly trained military pilots is either:

"Butt-probing aliens are here" - the irrational conclusion

"Meh, whatever." - your idea of the rational response - no further thought or discussion needed, people should look away, dismiss, this is nothing, pilots, military, pentagon should be ignored.

Can you walk me through your reasoning for this? Why are the only two conclusions that are possible these two? The pilot himself offers a number of possible hypotheses, some of which are more probable than others in my opinion. None of them are "meh, whatever." That's your preferred reaction - why do you think you do that?

I've made my position pretty clear - if this is anything, it's man-made. I believe the pilots, so I land pretty heavily on the side of man-made, classified, almost certainly US (not Chinese, not Russian or whatever), and what lies behind that is an interesting story of low-grade, low-level mutiny "in spirit" through the use of procedural loopholes by officers and pilots of the military who have had enough of being threatened, ignored, and told "Meh, whatever" each time they have these sightings and experiences. They are concerned because these craft seem to operate completely differently from, and have capabilities far outside of, any known craft US-made or otherwise. The full history channel episode details the experience of the entire wing, not just Fraver, where you hear the accounts of the AC-3 crew, the other F-18 flight (that took the recon pod vid), radar operators, etc., etc.

There's a lot in the testimony that supports a man-made, US-operated, hypothesis. Would you like to have a discussion along those lines, or are you just going to sort of slink away now? Usually at this point, as you've started to do above, you just begin making comments to someone who isn't there, declare victory in a debate that only you were having with imaginary "targets" out there, and dance sideways off stage. Surprise me.

Looking at it in isolation: There is NOTHING in the testimonies that can make one suggest ANYTHING. One can only make wild guesses and go as far as one's phantasy will permit. Could even be human or alien made selective brain manipulation by machine-induced telepathy or simply god was bored and wanted to fuck people about a little (she's still laughing I guess, yes she, god always wanted to be a woman and finally decided the time was right for a sex change).

The ONLY physical data anyone can try to analyse is the video footage. If that was not taken during the incident at the exact time the witnesses described what happened it is useless, no need to include it.

LOL You SEEM really frightened. I think what bothers you most is knowing that the pilot testimony combined with the footage actually represents the first, true, real beginning of the story that we can actually work with. People much more intelligent and informed than you or I, who have credentials to back up their positions, are following and discussing hypotheses surrounding this real event that only an idiot would imply has been manufactured by the pilots in question, which is what you're doing. The least intelligent, least useful approach to this incident is to insist "End of fucking story" - that is a programmed response.

The psy-op implemented by the Pentagon in the early 50s was to condition the population to react to anyone claiming to have seen a strange, unfamiliar object moving with intelligent control in the sky as:

1. A person who believes aliens are visiting us.

2. Ergo this person is irrational since the US gov has already concluded the phenomena is nothing more than delusion on a mass scale. If you say you've seen something, you are part of the mass delusion.

This message was machine-gun blasted across media from the mid-50s through the late 60s as the sister psy-op "Project Blue Book" presented the public-facing aspect of the operation. It was designed to make it look like the Pentagon was investigating and debunking mistaken sightings of "alien spacecraft" whereas the actual goal of the project was not to investigate anything but simply to reinforce the classified psy-op that a UAP sighting indicates a person is irrational, deluded, not stable - you execute this program flawlessly.

It makes sense because you are older, you would have been bombarded with this shit during your early adult years, you lack confidence in your own ability to independently analyze and hypothesize on this (and many other) issues, and therefore you fit the programming like a glove. And it's comfortable and safe in there, isn't it Daft Cunt - the video creator above is nice and safe as well. As long as you stick with not thinking, and giving programmed responses, you think no one will make fun of you and you can ridicule others. The programming means you don't have to actually consider what's being reported and cannot be denied - it does the thinking for you. The problem is that the program is no longer active - they've retired it or the disclosures have killed it, or both. But you are still executing the program!!! And in doing so, as the landscape has changed around you, buddy up there and you have inadvertently drifted into the very space the programming reassured you that you would be safe from. LOL - that is some serious irony.

Don't worry about it dude I don't think there's much chance anyone, even me, can pull you away from shouting nonsense at an empty stadium because you've been programmed to do so. It don't want to pick on you endlessly, so I'll leave it here.

You are really nerve wrecking. There is nothing to be afraid of, if it were alien tech at least it would be interesting. We are not living in Mars attack or V.

Only an idiot would interpret more into this incident (assuming the information given in the video above is all there is, if there is more provide it) than "inconclusive". We can let our fantasy go crazy, though.

You're the one still talking about, and are the only person who has been talking about, aliens in relation to this incident here on this site. I think in this case that it's highly improbable. So don't fret - think about something else and stop dwelling on it lol.

Guys, not wanting to intrude, but they make it clear the footage is 13+ years old. You remember what cameras were like in the day. Can we at least agree that after we all pretty much started walking around with Hi-Res cameras in our pockets, UFOs have become conspicuous in their absence?

@Bobbob that's funny isn't it. The footage (although that is not specifically mentioned) may not even be part of the event (or at least not referring to the part of the event the witnesses are describing) so there is NO evidence at all other than the witness' statements about something that allegedly happened in 2004.

Although I believe those that want to interpret "something more" into it make it up as they go along and change inconvenient stuff.