Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang

I don't hear these flaws. I don't hear anything haggard. I don't get it. Is my hearing fucked up? Is letting your voice quiver, like the sound of someone genuinely emoting, considered to be a mistake on the part of the singer or the singer's voice or something? I don't get it.

As someone who is ambivalent on Apple, I can tell you that her voice is in no way haggard. It's very trained; she uses it as an instrument well — and the best musicians explore all the sounds of their instrument, not just the "clear tones," if this makes any sense.

tl;dl she can ding, people are dumb. I wish I could sing like she does, and I'm not even a fan.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang

I'm not even going to be argumentative, I want any of you to give me specific tracks and at what point in the song are the occurrences that bring these adjectives to mind so that I can listen and therefore understand what vocal things you're referring to because I genuinely am not sure what points you're referring to and I want to discuss this reasonably and informed.

I think she sounds "haggard" (or, at least, it's the closest to haggard I can find) on "Daredevil" when she starts screaming. But I've no doubt in my mind that she wanted to sound like that. I would call it "rough," rather than "haggard."

When I showed "Every Single Night" to some friends of mine -- friends who, it so happens, are trained vocalists -- they were a little turned off, I think, by how she sang the chorus. They didn't call it "haggard," but they found it strange. I think Mario's on point when he says "people just don't know what a good voice actually sounds like." Though, maybe a better thing to say is that people mostly encounter good vocalists singing in safe ways. I think Fiona is being real when so many others are just trying to be pretty. It's great, because I almost feel like each listen is different, as though she is singing the songs anew each time I hear it. Like, maybe one of the times I listen to "Every Single Night," she is going to break down in the middle of the chorus. Of course, that's not going to happen, but it feels like it might. I think that is the benefit of this "haggard" singing.

Originally Posted by canexplain

I try to be politically pc more than most here: As a dude, anyone who could put a shark up a gals pc body, is pretty creepy, different and interesting. Just saying big time ..... cr****

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang

If When The Pawn is her Sgt. Pepper's (massive arrangement, superb production, sounds like a full orchestra and then some was brought in to create the soundscapes at play) then Idler Wheel is her White Album--stripped down, more pure, just her voice, her piano, and percussion. I'm a little annoyed that I didn't put my finger on why it sounded so different to me until Pitchfork mentioned that aspect but that's definitely it. Her work with Jon Brion was spectacular, but it did make it a little difficult to say that it was HER making it so amazing when there were 80 instruments brilliantly arranged around her. By taking all that shit out it's resulted in an end product that technically isn't quite as remarkable of an album but really shows off just how insanely talented she is all by her lonesome.

I know you're referring to Idler Wheel up there^, but this is exactly the reason I agreed with her decision to redo most of Extraordinary Machine with Mike Elizondo. It seems the majority of her fans disagree, but I think it was a very smart decision. The Brion arrangements were gorgeous; he’s an enormously talented arranger and producer, but I think the album got too bloated and overcooked with so many lush arrangements. The focus was no longer on her vocals and her songcraft, but on Brion's work. She chose to keep his arrangements/production for the opening and closing tracks. It allowed the rather cool, hard and flinty sound of the final album to be book-ended by these two warm and charming orchestral numbers. I think this made the tracks much more impactful as result. It’s not that I don’t like the other Brion arrangements – they’re all fine – but I think she made the right decision for the album.

As for this business of her present day voice. I think it has aged quite noticeably, but not in a negative way. I like to think of it more like whiskey aging in a barrel. I don’t think it’s “haggard” as some have said, but I do think it’s unmissable that the timbre of her voice has somewhat darkened. I think her voice is even more throaty than it was in the past. It doesn’t sound like wear and tear to me, but simply the maturing of her voice. The woman was, what? 19 when Tidal came out? She’s in her mid 30s now. Of course the qualities of her voice will evolve as she ages. Hopefully for the better.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Yeah. I actually would switch my haggard example from "Daredevil" to "Jonathan," being an example of her controlled "haggardness." She's a sincere vocalist.

Also, I listened through the Jon Brion version of Extraordinary Machine (thanks again, Mugwog) and I don't know if I would say that it is a better version of the official release. I love what Jon Brion did, but the songs didn't feel too different. I agree that it was a good choice for her to remove his arrangements.

Originally Posted by canexplain

I try to be politically pc more than most here: As a dude, anyone who could put a shark up a gals pc body, is pretty creepy, different and interesting. Just saying big time ..... cr****

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Also is "Jonathan" about Jonathan Ames? I was Wikipedia-ing today, and I didn't realize they dated.

I didn't realize that anybody dated Jonathan Ames except for gross people. (I'm biased off his perverted book, of course. Which was really funny and is why I went to my graduate school, because I thought he would teach me, but he left not long after I arrived. Because of Bored to Death, I think.)

Originally Posted by canexplain

I try to be politically pc more than most here: As a dude, anyone who could put a shark up a gals pc body, is pretty creepy, different and interesting. Just saying big time ..... cr****

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Originally Posted by Alchemy

I think she sounds "haggard" (or, at least, it's the closest to haggard I can find) on "Daredevil" when she starts screaming. But I've no doubt in my mind that she wanted to sound like that. I would call it "rough," rather than "haggard."

When I showed "Every Single Night" to some friends of mine -- friends who, it so happens, are trained vocalists -- they were a little turned off, I think, by how she sang the chorus. They didn't call it "haggard," but they found it strange. I think Mario's on point when he says "people just don't know what a good voice actually sounds like." Though, maybe a better thing to say is that people mostly encounter good vocalists singing in safe ways. I think Fiona is being real when so many others are just trying to be pretty. It's great, because I almost feel like each listen is different, as though she is singing the songs anew each time I hear it. Like, maybe one of the times I listen to "Every Single Night," she is going to break down in the middle of the chorus. Of course, that's not going to happen, but it feels like it might. I think that is the benefit of this "haggard" singing.

daredevil, agree. but i also don't see it as a flaw. when i saw her perform in 2005, she was doing a lot of growling for some reason which i wasn't a fan of. but i love that what comes out of her appears to be a piece of herself. which is why i love her. technically good singers are not always what you want to hear. if you don't have the performance to back it up; it's flat. and i think fiona backs it up with both technique and performance. it's always better to sometimes want to pull someone back than wish they'd give more.

Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome

It's when we discuss Coachella that we are at our collective dipshittiest.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Perhaps "haggard" was too harsh a term ("rough" is probably better) but I wasn't saying it derisively and I wasn't saying that it was persistent, nor did I mean to imply that its inclusion in the finished product wasn't deliberate. And Tim is right about it being in "Daredevil" -- when I'm home, I'll post a video and cite the exact moment that prompted me to describe her voice that way. I think it's in another track or two as well.

Originally Posted by guedita

In his defense I do remember there being an upsurge of black coworker on white coworker exlaxings in LA after Rodney King.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang

Yeah I'm making a whole thread just for this album. Fuck the overall Fiona thread, I want to talk about this and this specifically.

It's hard for me to explain how much I love this woman. She's easily the best female vocalist of our generation and her lyrical talents are equaled only by the true greats of all time. As a thoroughly "male" personality, there's something that always draws me in about great female songstresses almost more than any man can in that I'm more impressed by an artist who can make me identify with a part of the human condition that I feel so inherently distant from. When I listen to her words and the passion with which she sings them it makes me feel like I know the plight of every crazy woman I've ever known and loved.

What are everyone's favorites? Thus far, Jonathan, Left Alone, Werewolf, Periphery and Anything We Want are just killing me. Hot Knife to me feels like her just demonstrating to the world what a fucking genius of harmonies and lyrics and singing she is. Can't wait to see if she tries to pull it off live and what it would sound like.

you smoking crack again?

every song sounds the same

Lick an orange, it tastes like an orange. Lick a pineapple, it tastes like a pineapple. Go ahead, try it. Try some more. The strawberries taste like strawberries. The snozzberries taste like snozzberries! We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams. Come along, come along.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

This album is such a pleasure to listen to. I love every quiver in her voice. Human is a great description and emotional in a way Janis Joplin was with hers. I would have a tough time choosing between this album and when the pawn as my favorite. I'm can't wait to see her perform live again.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

omg carrion.

also, back to the tummy thing. i honestly think she used the word more for vowels because she jumps octaves. "stomach" is not a very friendly word to sing, whereas "tummy" and "belly" are. i don't think it's some weird tie to childhood.

and i think left alone could be on a hot knife album.

Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome

It's when we discuss Coachella that we are at our collective dipshittiest.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Originally Posted by chairmenmeow47

also, back to the tummy thing. i honestly think she used the word more for vowels because she jumps octaves. "stomach" is not a very friendly word to sing, whereas "tummy" and "belly" are. i don't think it's some weird tie to childhood.

Also it starts to become a pretty unwieldy sentence without tummy. With tummy you at least get the alliteration factor of Tears and Tummy.

Interesting, I hadn't thought about this until just now, but she actually has to do that to make a chorus with no rhymes work from a phonetic/rhythmic perspective. How can I ask anyone to love me... when all I do is beg to be left alone. Makes the lack of a rhyme slide down better because similar syllabic patterns are used. Nifty. I wonder if she thinks about this shit.

Originally Posted by amyzzz

Hannah, I don't know that pigs have big weiners, and my early 20's facination with dogs because of weiner size, I think. If that helps.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

i would hope as a singer she at least thinks about vowels. the more vowels that let you drop your jaw open, the more air and sound you can make. consonants close off your air and can't be sustained. i wouldn't be surprised if she also thought about things like syllabic patterns

i personally love:

just tolerate my little fists tugging on your forest chest

Last edited by chairmenmeow47; 07-04-2012 at 06:06 AM.

Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome

It's when we discuss Coachella that we are at our collective dipshittiest.

Re: Fiona Apple -- The Idler Wheel

Originally Posted by ods..

Snippets.

Complete. Mess.

I am not sure what you are saying but it seems to indicate that there is no possible way I could determine whether the album is a mess by listening to snippets. You'd be right of course. I've heard Hot Knife (loved it until it got to the absurd show tune part), Jonathan, and Every Single Night in their entirety. I also have heard tracks from several reviews (Sound Opinions and two different NPR reviews) that vary wildly. If she was an artist I really cared about I'd get the album and give it a shot but she has never been, so meh.