Tuesday, September 12

Many people can recite the Lord’s Prayer from memory. In our door-to-door ministry, we often refer to this prayer to help householders understand that God’s Kingdom is a real government that is going to bring wonderful changes to our earth. Or we may refer to the first request in the prayer to show that God has a personal name, which is to be sanctified, or “treated as holy.” Did Jesus intend that this prayer be repeated word for word every time we pray, as is done by many in Christendom? No. Just before Jesus provided this prayer as a pattern, he said: “When praying, do not say the same things over and over again.” On a later occasion, he restated this prayer but used different wording. Thus Jesus helped us know what sort of things we need to ask for and in what order of importance. Hence, it is fitting to call it the model prayer.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have most assuredly publicized the name of God. Since 1931 God’s personal name has been officially linked to the Watchtower and Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses. The name of God appears on the front cover of every Watchtower Magazine.

Since jw.org has come online it has become the most translated website in the entire world with approximately 800 different languages available. No other site even comes close. Wikipedia is the second most translated site with less than 300 languages. And it is not merely virtual. As of January 2017 the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publishes the New World Translation in 150 languages, each translation rendering the Hebrew Tetragrammaton into a pronounceable name.

But do Jehovah’s Witnesses contribute to the sanctification of God’s name by merely preaching? No. Just the opposite. Because Jehovah’s Witnesses are inseparably associated with God’s holy name only Jehovah’s Witnesses can cause others to reproach the name they bear before the public, which the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses have done. For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses are considered false prophets by many who are familiar with the organization’s history —a charge that is not without some basis in fact.

More egregious, in recent years the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses have come under scrutiny for their child abuse policies that have shielded pedophiles and punished their victims. Ironically, the Watchtower’s stated motive in covering up the crimes committed against children in the congregations has been to keep the name of Jehovah from reproach. How perverse! Now, instead of the pedophile bearing his own guilt for the crimes they have committed, the Watchtower organization has made itself complicit in protecting pedophiles from prosecution and in so doing has brought far more reproach upon the name of God then the actual sexual abuse.

Just think if the Watchtower would have been zealous in bringing in law enforcement –utilizing the expertise of professionals to assist the elders in investigating accusations of child abuse –quite likely the organization would not have become the pedophile paradise, such as it has become; and most assuredly, men would think twice before they harmed a child if they knew there were going to be legal consequences. Had the Watchtower’s lawyers been more concerned with actually protecting children rather than protecting the Society’s coffers by mollycoddling pedophiles to avoid potential lawsuits from them, they could have avoided disrespecting the name of Jehovah. But now Bethel has become more guilty than the pedophiles! And the well-worn platitudes of consolation offered to victims of abuse, telling them to “wait on Jehovah,” is going to come back to bite them —as the penalty for bringing reproach on God’s name is going to be severe.

The 36th chapter of Ezekiel is addressed to “Israel,” but in reality applies to Jehovah’s Witnesses: “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Not for your sakes am I acting, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will certainly sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you profaned among them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among you before their eyes.’”

The Israelites brought reproach on God, not only through their own actions, but because they obligated Jehovah to destroy them the nations reproached Jehovah as being an impotent God. That the prophecy actually applies to Jehovah’s Witnesses is evident even in the Watchtower’s own interpretation. According to the Watchtower the attack of Gog will come upon Jehovah’s Witnesses in the future. That being the case, Ezekiel 39:7 states: “‘And I will send fire against Magog and against those who are inhabiting the islands in security, and they will have to know that I am Jehovah. I will make my holy name known among my people Israel, and I will not allow my holy name to be profaned any longer; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah, the Holy One in Israel.’”

What does it mean that Jehovah will make his holy name known among his people? Don’t his people already know his name? Israel certainly knew God’s name and so do Jehovah’s Witnesses. That being true, Jehovah making known his name has to do with God taking action. It has to do with Christ executing Jehovah’s judgments. It means that the sanctification of God’s name will impact Jehovah’s Witnesses foremost.

Whereas, it is one thing to know that God has a personal name, it is something else entirely to encounter the God who bears the name. That is why through the prophet Amos Jehovah declared: “Get ready to meet your God, O Israel.” Jehovah’s Witnesses would do well to get ready too.

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Jw bears the name of Jehovah just as ancient Israelites. Just as how Jews reproached the name of Jehovah through idolatry, similarly the leadership of Jw brought reproach on the name of Jehovah through shielding child abuse, and false prophecy of 1914. So because of idolatry and reproach Jehovah destroyed his own temple the holy place. Similarly Jehovah through Jesus will destroy the organization that bears his name and finally saves his people then the JWS will come to know the name of Jehovah. Hey hey its 10:38 p.m. I was wakeup to read this article and to comment. Okay let me ZZZzzz. See you tommarow

Alex Henrique

Seems true. Let’s wait and see if this is happen.

Searcher

Excellent clarification, thank you

Craig Knight

Definition of profane – profane / adjective 1.Having or indicating contempt, irreverence, or disrespect for a divinity or something sacred. JW’s by blindly accepting the GB over the Bible have profaned God’s name. Especially since youtube is now so popular many people in the world now know more about what’s going on in the WTS than JW’s know themselves. The shame and reproach that they have brought on God’s name by teaching false prophecies and the cruel shunning, child molestation etc, etc, etc…‘Not for your sakes am I acting, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you profaned among the nations where you have gone. So Jehovah will act for his name sake and to clear his name of all reproach. JW’s will suffer like Israel suffered and will be humiliated before the world to see like Israel was.

The Raven

“Especially since youtube is now so popular many people in the world now know more about what’s going on in the WTS than JW’s know themselves.”

Isn’t that something? It takes an act of “independent thinking”, “evil influence” or “defiance” on the part of a witness to even look at sites like this. They risk it all if they allow anyone to find out as well. But still, thousands do. I have had a hunch that a large number have done this especially since one hundred years passed and still…nothing. I’m certain they aren’t all completely brainwashed. Once trib starts we will all get to see what’s what.

Easach of Coimbatore

But also remember we should not fall

The Raven

Indeed.

Burt Reynolds

When the Internet first came out it was shunned by the watchtower as evil. The next thing I knew, that thought had got swept under the carpet by the broom of ‘new light’ and the Internet was okay, so long as you only looked at JW.COM. and not to listen to the ‘apostate lies.’ Paradoxically then, all the witnesses are doing by confining themselves to the JW site alone, is listening to apostate lies and denying themselves the truth. But most remarkable of all, is the witnesses acceptance of the dictat not to think for themselves, but to leave that to the governing body. If anything is evident of supernatural intervention on this earth, it is the witnesses aliegence to that command.

The Raven

I didn’t know they shunned the net. I just thought they were a little behind the times on these things. I wondered why the information I found was always from outside sources.
I agree there must be something going on with them to keep those blinders on. It’s obvious to me the devil has devoted his attention to them from the git go. But I know now Jehovah has also. They are correct about this being spiritual warfare and they must be on their guard constantly, however…they have kept their noses so close to the grindstone ( the society) they cannot see anything else around them.

Max

The web has always been seen as a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless. Even today what is told to the friends is to keep the house computers in public areas for mutual supervision of browsing history and for couples not to have separate passwords, so they could watch each other and help each other to stay clean an away from apostates sites and pornography. The internet is very serious business, at the KH we have regular talks about the misused of the internet.

The Raven

Kids I can understand but adults? I look at it this way, internet or not if folks are going to get up to no good they will find a way regardless. Distrust and spying on each other may even drive some folks to rebel. Who wants to live like that? It’s no wonder to me that Robert gets thousands of hits on this site.

Max

True

The Raven

This is too much like big brother to me. The old argument they make is you should not mind being monitored if you have nothing to hide. But this to me is a matter of privacy also. No one likes someone looking over their shoulder no matter how benign the activity. I have never done that to my family and they haven’t spied on me either. How do you feel about this, Max?

Max

Well of course it’s not nice. But let me tell you at Bethel we had our bedroom searched every month and that included our personal computers. We were graded then on neatness of our closet and the way we had our personal things arranged and they looked for any unauthorized materials we kept in our computers or under the mattress in the bathroom cabinets they looked everywhere. Two Bethel elders searched every drawer every book magazine your whole bedroom. That was performed once a month and I was told that even the governing body had to go through that too. In two occasions I found the brothers in my bedroom in one of the inspections I found them going over my undergarments jokingly I told one of the brothers ” I can give you the name of the store if you like them” We just laughed it out but it was very uncomfortable! The ones that complaint the most were the distric and circuit overseers visiting Bethel during an inspection because outside Bethel nobody knew they did that.

The Raven

Wow! Sounds like a shake down at a prison, Max! That’s terrible! As mischievous as I can be I would have loaded my dresser with junk food, worldly magazines, playing cards, A flask, tobacco and a copy of Robert’s book to boot and probably been kicked out and disfellowshipped! Man, you have some patience! I got to hand it to you, Max, I would have been a serious problem but you… tolerated it all for Jehovah’s sake.
I admire that and I’m glad you know now the truth about the idol the society has become. Thank you for telling us these things. You’re right most would never know what goes on there. It does make me wonder if any at Bethel have been able to access Robert’s site given those conditions.

Max

I doubt it. The work at any branch is so exhausting that you would have very little time to even think about going to sites just for the fun of it. They just now have Saturdays off, but we used to work Monday through Friday 8 hrs or more a day and Saturdays 1/2 days. If you are an elder like I was You would have also the congregation’s responsibilities and the ministry you can’t be a single digit publisher when being an elder plus you have the once a month extra Bethel duties like evening reception work, weekend kitchen work and I had night shifts at the infirmary. You know the years I was there I never heard of somebody from the branches being disciplined for apostasy. Personally I never knew of this site until this year through one of brother’s King YouTube videos. Apostasy in the organization is seen worse than everything else. When a judicial committee brand you as an apostate in the ayes of the friends you are going right into the lake of fire the second death is that serious, so believe me very few venture into sites that are not approved.

The Raven

I see. The only way for people to be able to see this site then would be outside the confines of Bethel. Everything about life there is tightly regimented. As for the lake of fire, well I can understand why folks are very afraid to be judged. But what they haven’t realized is that these men are not judges. It is a hard thing to call down judgement on others without doing it to yourself. People don’t know this. Even witnesses. But surely some have gotten to the point where enough was enough and fear Jehovah more than they do mere men? Do you reckon that others who have left or “faded” did so because of the onerous routines and demands?
I have to believe that there are a number, like you who awakened and saw this for what it is. Maybe through this site or maybe they found it later but as bad as things were for you and still are, there must be a turnover rate that is not discussed.

Max

My experience of more than three decades in the organization is that many do tired out because of the heavy burdens put in place by the GB and many just fade away, but the friends as a whole they do recognize and know that we couldn not be followers of men as such the majority eventually will do what their conscious tell them to do and during the end most of JW will hear the voice of the great Shepard and they will follow him into the new world. For now most are blind but I’m sure that in the majority of JW the love of Jehovah is very much alive in their hearts and for those in whom the flame of love still burns during the end they will survive because there has to be a great crowd coming out of the great tribulation. I have personally talked to some spiritually mature friends of mine at the hall and they do see what’s going on many are not ready to do anything for fear of being disciplined. So they tell me to wait in Jehovah that the organization does not belong to us to make any changes that is the King to whom the kingdom has been given the one that will set things straight again and that for us the only thing left to do is to remain loyals to Jehovah and wait for His deliverance.

The Raven

Max, That’s comforting to know and I also believe that many will do the right thing. I never doubted most witnesses love Jehovah even though right now things appear off kilter and strained. I have accepted they had the truth when I first learned it and even now still feel the same regardless of the errors and all the rest and I agree it will all be set right. Thank you for your clear and considerate replies, Max. It helps me understand how this is what it is from a personal perspective as yours. It compliments what I’ve learned here very nicely.

Max

It is my sincere pleasure to share in the truth with you Raven! ? Proverbs 3:5-8

The Raven

Thank you for the scripture too Max. Very fitting. 🙂

Daisy

‘The king will answer them, I can guarantee this truth: Whatever you did for one of my brothers and sisters no matter how unimportant they seemed, you did for me’

Beautiful Max! I always know when things get to me , by the tears in my eyes! I have to run out of the k.h when we sing ‘We thank You Jehovah’ …this song is a close second, loved the lyrics…but, can’t help feeling that these words apply to the future, mostly, when the parousia begins and our test will be one of loyalty to our King, the forgotten-begotten. Thank you brother, much love from Daisy…

Ken Rosenberg

I actually lost faith in God when I was an active witness because of the onerous routines and demands. I remember they would always bring up the scripture about Jesus saying his load is light, and I would laugh inside.

The Raven

It’s hard not to be cynical or disheartened over these things but I’m glad you got through it and hopefully are stronger and on more solid ground now. It doesn’t make all the rest of it go away for sure, but as Max said, knowing what’s really about to happen ( to an extent) does help, I would guess. It certainly made my outlook on life and survival a little brighter than what I was led to believe by the WTO.
Seems people who take these spiritual matters to heart in earnest are also those most easily wounded by dishonesty, error or evil, whichever the case may be. All of us trusted to some degree or another and all of us felt a sense of betrayal. But now that we know the facts, let that be balm for our spirits. I hope it has been for yours, Ken. 🙂

Max

I can see that happening because the GB has made the load heavy by adding to the truth. Jehovah has allowed that to happened but make no mistake as you know He will set things straight soon just keep the flame in your heart alive brother! Here we have plenty of nutritious spiritual food to grow strong once again.

Craig Knight

Ken – Me too. I just got real exhausted and lost my joy. Field service just seemed a big waste of time. I worked nights for years and so I would go out in service in the afternoon when no one was around, everybody was at work. So it literally was a waste of time.

Ken Rosenberg

I’m considered an Apostate by my congregation and family. All because I read conflicting scriptures against 1914. Lol, they literally covered their ears when I would speak.

Yeah, my name and reputation has been dragged through the mud, going “Apostate” is definitely the worst thing in their eyes.

Well, Ken this walking corpse associates with apostates quite often. I stopped giving it much thought when I considered the criteria for that judgement from them or anyone else for that matter. We may not be saints or “approved” in their eyes, but it’s not their eyes that matter here. It’s Jehovah’s. How do you feel personally about knowing these things, independent of what others think?

Craig Knight

Sounds like the SS to me. I wonder who searched the rooms of the searchers?

Ha ha ha! I used to watch Hogan’s hero’s all the time. Thanks for the laugh.

The Raven

So much has changed.

Craig Knight

You’re right about that my Brother! It sounds corny to say but it was a much simpler time in the 50’s and 60’s. On a positive note, we are living in privileged times when it’s very possible we could live to see the 3rd coming….uhhh 2nd coming that is.

Burt Reynolds

That’s the question to ask Craig. Who searches the searchers? Or was the searching to find the vulnerable target? Wheels within wheels.

Craig Knight

I actually got invited to Bethel in 1974 as I was a MS and did well in the field service. I’m so glad I didn’t go. I wouldn’t have let them search my room or I would have set rat traps under my mattress. Ha ha! I got married instead which means I went from the fire into the frying pan. You know how it works first there’s the engagement ring then the wedding ring and then the suffering! 🙂

Funny stuff! If you’re a GB member you get special treatment. Anyone remember Leo Greenlees? He just was quietly shown the back door. No disfellowshipping for him. It pays to rub elbows with the GB.

Max

? not too far from reality!

Burt Reynolds

They did what!? Search your room every month? I can hardly believe what I just read. One the one hand they preach trust and fellowship, and the next they are inspecting your underwear. That is just unbelievable, but is born of mental derangement and hypocrisy, of something to hide and distrust. IT is no small wonder that paedophiles are protected and things done in secret. Something tells me that the wrongdoing in the watchtower, when it is exposed, will be far greater than we can imagine now.

Craig Knight

McAfee has a solution to the spyware that is installed on all cell phones.

Haha! Have you installed this? I don’t want to mess with something that could screw up my phone. I just bought it and it took me a while to save for it.

Craig Knight

It’s not even out yet but will be soon. I think it costs around 1100 buckeroo’s. A bit steep for me especially since I don’t keep any important data on my phone. But if you are into bitcoin it’s supposed to be a fool proof way to send and receive coins into your digital wallet. This is all way too technical for a simpleton like me 🙂

The Raven

Wow, that’s more money than my work truck is worth! I don’t mess with bitcoin but I’ve been watching the latest developments on the Chinese shutdown of a large exchange. The NSA can hoover up all that info but sorting through it is another matter. It’s no secret the intelligence agencies and every lawyer I’ve ever met usually just go to facebook and get whatever they want. Folks just about spill all their secrets there. I don’t fool with any of that.

Craig Knight

Did you hear about the recent Equifax hack where these cyber criminals stole around 143,000,000 people personal information? If it wasn’t for this site I’d toss my computer and cell phone in the trash. There are just too many criminals out there. One day we will be free from all this stupid technology.

The Raven

Yeah, I read about it and we all checked to see if everything was ok. Phones, I hand to my niece or nephew to fiddle with. My computer baffles them. I run Linux, not windows.
One day, this will all be gone. No more, ” why can’t I get it to do this?!! What am I doing wrong here?!” 🙂

Craig Knight

I used to have this computer guy come around when I had problems and He told me about Linux. I should look into that because I hate windows.

The Raven

I dont like the way microsoft does business. I got tired of their constant buggy updates and charging for an os which becomes obsolete in no time and then refusing to support it. Vista on a vaio laptop did it for me. It was a frankenbuild and i hated it. I wiped it and i never looked back. Its a little tricky and some distros arent as good but I’m happy with it.

Craig Knight

Oh man I hate MS. They do these forced downloads to our computers and my computer at work always malfunctions afterwards. I set up my computer where I do just manual downloads. I’m going to check into Linux. I’m at the point where I would love to trash all this technology stuff but if I did that I couldn’t be here on this site.

The Raven

Yeah, I know. The niece and nephew sit and yell at theirs when MS messes up . lol! My main problem with Linux was finding the right distro for what I needed. There are many nice ones and there are some which were shy on features. Finding drivers for some was hard. I settled on the Lightweight x11 desktop. I didn’t need a lot of programs, just basics. I’ve been using it for several years now.

Jamie Mac

Hey Craig, don’t you know that Microsoft rules the virtual waves.

Craig Knight

I have worked in the business world for the past 30 years and I just can’t wait for God to destroy all these greedy rotten companies and annihilate technology forever. I hope Microsoft and Facebook get hit first! Ha ha!

The Raven

Here’s something you might be interested in seeing. I am pretty sure you already know about this but the details are what makes it sting.

Hi Raven, I am a so called Software Engineer and I ask those same questions daily during working hours. There have been many times when I wanted to give it all up and be a postman or a baker or a ????????? anything but working with computers.

I like it! Weird Al Yankovic style. Ha ha! Here are some profound word’s from Al on North Korea.

“The North Korea Polka (Please Don’t Nuke Us)”

Would you annihilate us if you had the chance?
That’s such an antisocial thing to do
You’ve got us crapping our collective pants
May I suggest you take it down a notch or two

We’re not exactly sure why you’re upset
Did that Seth Rogen movie make you super mad?
You’d like us if you got to know us i bet
We’re mostly harmless decent people, hey we’re really not so bad

My point is!
Please don’t nuke us North Korea
Right now we’re all a little tense
Believe me!
We don’t hate you
Frankly we don’t even think that much about you, no offense

Now you might call us “bloodthirsty dogs”
But that metaphor’s not very apt
Were just a bunch of simple fidget-spinning goofy dorks
Who probably couldn’t find your country on a map

No we’re not savages or cannibals
Well maybe just a really really really small percent
So I think it would be best if you’d knock off those missile tests
Don’t turn us into cinder while we’re swiping right on Tinder
Don’t jump start Armageddon or our beds will soon be wetter
Won’t you think this through for a moment please
Now why would you bomb our nice celebrities?
Oh why in the world would you kill Tom Hanks?
Cause nobody doesn’t like Tom Hanks!

So!
Please don’t nuke us North Korea
That would seriously ruin our day
Remember!
We’re not evil psychotic monsters
No matter what the news may say
We’re just those goofballs from the U.S.A!
(Please don’t nuke us)
(Please don’t nuke us)
(Please don’t nuke us)
Hey!

The Raven

lol!

Huldah

I admit I thought of Al too. This guy’s new to me.

Craig Knight

I’m sure many JW’s look at youtube so called apostate sites. It’s ok if the GB watch these sites and try to have them shut down. So again they are being hypocritical saying do not look at apostate web sites but WT does it all the time. I guess the Fair use laws allow people to keep their apostate sites open. I know this one site I used to watch from an especially angry ex JW couple and they actually celebrate JW’s leaving by putting small tacks in a coffin lid. I hope those that leave will find this site like we did.

The Raven

I don’t doubt that at all from a lot of them but from what Max said about the branch he was in I’d say they had very strict measures to deter and detect that. Maybe things aren’t that way at all of them. Just like some congregations are more lenient than others, from what I’ve gathered reading of some of your experiences. I’ve seen some of those sites and I don’t like them. The coffin tacks are mild compared to others. I hope they find this place too but there are no guarantees they will see any better than when they were active. Too many have completely fallen away and are determined to pull the rest down with them.
There is a danger in learning the truth and ttatt. Both are life changing.

Craig Knight

Sadly that’s true that many just want to pull everyone down or set them free. Some drop Jehovah and go to Jesus, some turn to evolution or natural selection as they like to call it. I’ve even heard some get into the military. It just seems nuts to drop all the basic gems of truth and toss out the baby with the bath water. I was free from WT but found myself on death row. That’s not freedom is it? People who love truth will find it and nothing or no one can remove us from God’s love.

…37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.…

The Raven

Death row? Hmm. I thought it more like being set back out into the world without a compass for a time. Until I realized they too are in the world, just not part of it. I figured I could do that too outside their walls. Well…why not? It’s strange trying to gauge other religions by what we learned and inevitably come back to the basic truths every time. Talks I had with friends about this always came down to prophecy and how wrong they thought the witnesses were but they did not doubt the basic truths most of the time. About eleven years ago, a preacher sent to my house from Covenant Hospice to visit us and my sister in law who was dying after suffering a brain aneurysm engaged me when he saw my large print NWT bible. A few weeks later he asked me to get him one. I did. When she passed he offered to deliver a sermon at her gathering at the Hospice conference center ( she hated funeral homes). My brother was really apprehensive about this but I asked him to allow it. We were both surprised to hear him plainly state all the basic truths about Jehovah, Jesus, the condition of the dead and the resurrection in the new kingdom.
I never saw him again after that but I and my brother have been relieved of more than a few bibles in our years and that makes me smile. I have to believe they, like we were drawn by their love of God and humanity to want to know more. To want the truth.

Craig Knight

When I walked away from the WT, I did feel like I was leaving God. So that feeling of just waiting for God to destroy me was always there like someone on death row. As I started to learn ttatt then that feeling started to fade. But I think many ex JW’s feel like that for awhile. That’s a great way to put that – out in the wilderness without a compass. When I left the Org I was a total burnout so I still believed all their prophecies etc. Years later when I had thoughts of returning, that’s when I started doing deep research. Then I couldn’t go back with a clean conscience. I stayed there until I found this site. The basic teachings are what drew me back to seek God again Especially the neutrality issue. Most religions are so nationalistic it’s ridiculous.

That’s sad about your sister in law but a great story about that preacher. The basic truths are so clear and easy to find if people would just read their Bibles and be open to correction. There’s a saying, ”When you lock on you lock out!” So many people lock onto false teachings and just never question and so they lock out the truth.

Craig

Hi Craig, similar thoughts as yourself, one thing that I could not go beyond was Jehovah’s name alone. I think it’s the one thing that kept me attached to JW’s and kept me searching for the truth. How could those bearing Jehovah’s name have nothing to do with the outworking of his purpose, especially as the organisation professing to be the visible part of his organisation here on earth. To me it made no difference whether they’ve been appointed or self appointed. I was reading a forum recently and it was being spoken of how bad it was that Jehovah’s name was being dragged through the mud, but I think the point they were making was that it was the world or those in opposition to Jehovah that we’re responsible for it. How can others be responsible for what those serving Jehovah do to his name.
It’s hard when you have questions about teachings or the organisation and your given the very thing for the answers that you have the questions about.
It took me along time to go beyond the pages of the Watchtower magazine to do research.

The Raven

I understand that feeling. When you have been judged by Catholics as deserving eternal hell and then also consigned to the lake of fire by some witnesses you get to where it doesn’t mean jack to you. I consider the fact that none of them have the power to judge anyone. Sure, I wondered about my fate when I could not go along with much of what was taught but if it had not been for the fact that I had spoken to a number of witnesses privately, I would have also felt doomed. It was the one to one talks outside the confines of the hall and nosy others that I learned a great many things. Not all of them were correct or had all the answers but their presentation and willingness to ditch the “materials” and use the bible in an unstructured study helped me immensely. Only then did my bible become marked and dog eared with so much paper slips stuck in it they fell out constantly. I had notes written on everything. They liked this too and even admitted they missed the old days when they had studies which were much less regimented. I saw in them in person what I could not see in the organization collectively and now I know why that is so. I know what’s at work here and I do have confidence that many will see the truth. I have had elders admit to me they did not agree with many things but went on until more would be revealed. They did not berate me or hound me as did others. But still, I wondered where I stood in all this and to find this site with more answers than they had or I could glean on my own from scripture seemed to me Jehovah’s way of giving me what I needed.
For that I am grateful.

The Raven

Here’s something else I ran across while studying this site that made things a little clearer for me especially concerning the deluding influence:

That is a great article thanks for sharing. It’s pretty amazing that JW’s don’t think Satan would be involved in trying to deceive the WTS as an angel of light. Robert makes it pretty clear that the deception would be taking place within the congregation of God’s people as it happened in the first century.

Alex Henrique

I’ve seen some videos of this couple. They’re funny and the wife looks very dear.
But I realize that they do not bother to make spiritual criticisms of GB. I consider GB as the character “Grima – snake tongue” from the films Lord of the Rings. There are times when they speak the truth, sometimes they lie.
With
these attitudes, Satan is able to cause problems to those within the
congregation, because they believe in everything that the GB says. They also cause problems for outsiders, because they reject everything the GB says. We can not get carried away by this. What we need is to understand and believe the truth. The mentioned couple does not seem to have this goal, they just want to criticize.

Burt Reynolds

That’s very true. I know this couple too and they helped me quite a lot by exposing the watchtower issues and confirming my suspicions. In my initial search, I was looking for evidence that gave the lie about the watchtower in that they were untrue in their leadership. Well, I sure got that, and from other people too. That allowed me to feel justified in widening my search for truth and I suppose that is where we parted ways. They seem no longer interested in the Father as their faith seems destroyed as is the case for many other ex JWs. I never saw it that way in continuing in bitterness and abandoning the search, blaming Jehovah and, as is oft the case, spitting on his name. The fact that the watchtower are liars does not make the God of the bible a liar, so I knew to continue to look for Him. It’s a shame that all these good hearted people, and there are many, have lost sight of that simple fact and not bothered to look more closely for the reason why. And when one finds the ‘why’, suddenly everything falls into place. How, when seeing the lie, can they miss the truth?! But they do! Very sad.

Craig Knight

Sounds like you know the couple on youtube that I was referring to. It is very sad to me too how this ex brother and sister became so enraged that their anger turns to even Jehovah’s name as you say. I even sent them an e mail and told them to check Robert’s site out but to no avail. The husband especially seems to have a hatred to even pronounce God’s name. They worked in the WTS for 50 years or so and are super bitter understandably but to speak with disrespect for God’s name is just sad. They get people out of WT but they have no place to go to. They say welcome to your freedom but what freedom do they really have now? They do a great job showing WT’s lie’s and tomfoolery but they have no real answers like Robert does here. Too bad there isn’t a way to reach out to these apostate people who are off on the wrong path.

Burt Reynolds

Yes you’re right Craig. Fifty years! A lifetime. One can understand the bitterness, or try to, because I don’t feel bitter at all in principle because I would not have understood the truth if I did not had the lie revealed to me. ( I should clarify that I do feel very bitter at the way I was treated but that is because of the mindlessness and cruelty of men and women. But even then, they too were victims, so I just try to forgive them. But that makes me look more mindful than I am, so I will just say if I saw them today I would give them a thorough verbal berating!) I suppose it must have for those that have totally walked away, been a similar sense of betrayal that some of the followers of Jesus must have felt at his death. All that talk of the kingdom, all that hope, all those promises and miracles and yet he chooses to walk straight into the lions den and get torn to shreds. Can you imagine what it must have been like for those followers to hear the silence following his death? The sense of betrayal. They could not understand and thus they could not reason on what they had been told, and it’s meaning. And is that not what we see happening to the followers in the congregations? They think it was all of it, a lie, and have forgotten that if there is to be a lie, truth must have preceded it.

The Raven

“I would not have understood the truth if I did not have the lie revealed to me”
You nailed it there. That has been what settled many doubts I had not only about the society but myself as well.

Craig Knight

JW’s have the mind set that they either have the complete truth or nothing.That’s the black and white or right or wrong concept. So when they stumble on one of the plethora of stumbling blocks in the WT then they toss everything out just like I did for a long time. That’s a huge mistake! I like how you put it – the truth precedes the lie. I say keep the gems and 86 the rubbish. Instead these angry ex JW’s become fighters against God. I thought of starting a youtube site but for this very reason I didn’t do it. That one guy I was mentioning speaks with hate for the name Jehovah. It’s a bad position to be in for him.

Acts 5:39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

Burt Reynolds

I think we have all been there, wanting to expose the tangible ills of the watchtower. However, the watchtower is doing that for itself, without the help if anyone. I think this site is unique, though others do carry truth, in that it carries inspection and bears argument. I know some will disagree, but for my part, my view is that there is a dividing line between the crass and the honest question, just as the examples in the bible show. If there were not, then it would simply be a reflection of the watchtower, or politics, where only pre-approved questions are sought. I don’t feel I am being taught a lie here. There are too many points of view to defend the lie. And another thing: the truth does not paint a rosy future that avoids the furnaces of refinement. In an obtuse way, that has always been the mark of it!

Craig Knight

The WT is doing a bang up job of opening people’s eye’s with their new JW Broadcast and in combination with Youtube all the ex witnesses giving their own personal horror stories of WT abuse. If WT had not fallen into a state of stupor the internet could have been a great tool to preach to the sheep in the world but the reality is that the internet just might be their downfall.

Alex Henrique

The greater the trust of someone in GB, the stronger their crying and gnashing of teeth when that person discovers the “truth”.

Acting like this, Satan got what he wanted. His false prophets have managed to keep this person out from God. But it is not a game of chess absolutely impossible to win against Satan, otherwise God would not leave such a task for us. In
fact, the element that makes the difference between being able to pass
the test will be to absorb the essential elements of Christianity. This enable to make us endure the snake bite.

Burt Reynolds

You have just raised a question in my mind. All these people leaving the watchtower…how comitted were they to Jehovah, if the can only see Jehovah and the watchtower as one? The implications are enormous. If we look at the amount of people who have left and are leaving the watchtower, how many of these still continue to look for Jehovah elsewhere, in a way that they may find Him? It does not seem to be many. As there are more leaving it seems, than are joining, how many of these never felt in unison with Jehovah or rejoiced in an understanding of him? If all these people could not ‘see’ Jehovah during their study of the bible, or understand his presence, it begs the question, did they ever know Him and is the very purpose of the watchtower to draw people away from the truth and hide Jehovah behind a wall of lies? Perhaps I’m stating the obvious, but for me, this is a new angle of thought….if I’m thinking at all that is!

The Raven

How many had some serious doubts about their teachings as well? My experiences made me wonder what was wrong with me since I could not see what they insisted was the truth about prophecy. I was told that it was due to my independent thinking and arrogance to believe I was right and they were wrong. It was baffling and strange. I thought it best to leave it alone and focus on scripture. I knew I would never be baptised by them and questioned whether jehovah allows this sort of judgement. I think you’re right in a comment you made a while back about how those who seek truth are often compromised by accepting a measure of lies to follow God. I don’t know why some folks grow to hate jehovah and attack the witnesses even after knowing ttatt but I once asked the same question and I think it has to do with their actual condition of heart regardless the issues. I’ve seen this behavior among all sorts of people, not just witnesses. Even though they left the org they carry with them what was always present in their hearts good and bad.

Burt Reynolds

That is very true. Only the witnesses are blind to their leaders. I can’t even get my sister to discuss the bible, let alone the machinations of the watchtower. It’s so difficult to understand. Tell a child not to do something and they rush off and do it. Tell a witness not to discuss the bible with those fallen away ( or any other shunned types) and they won’t, not even a nine year old daughter I read about yesterday! And as for looking at the bible or world events for themselves….who knows what they think but whatever it is, it’s not normal thinking, not for a reasonable or reasoning person.

Easach of Coimbatore

It is not normal thinking but controlled or guided thinking by Pharisees (GB) of WTS imposed on all JWs.

Craig Knight

Yeah my sister and my Mom won’t talk to me either. But Jesus said that family members will turn against one another. Luke 12:53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

The mother in law part is ok with me however! Ha ha!

Isaac of Coimbatore

Oh really that makes sense

Huldah

Romans 9

27And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out,

“Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore,

only a remnant will be saved.

28For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth

quickly and with finality.”

30What
does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow
God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that
this took place.
31But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded.
32Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.
33God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said,

“I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble,

a rock that makes them fall.

But anyone who trusts in him

will never be disgraced.”q

Easach of Coimbatore

OK something food for the thought for me

Max

To the Romans 9 is very appropriate to our situation as JW. I
think the stone in our case has been the WT. Before I knew this site
in my particular case I had all the trust in the organization. I
followed the WT as a prophet of God and when I was at Bethel I really
saw the governing body as saints men of God. I felt that as long as I
was in the “Arc” everything was going to be OK… Just follow the
organization directions and one day you will wake up in paradise”
sort of thing. Now I see that as idolatry to put my trust in an
organization and not in Jehovah… sight! I was trying to get right
with God by trusting the WT more than bible itself. And how many of
our friends are in the same situation I wonder… probably the
majority of them.

Huldah

Just as the Bible speaks to those who are humble. I think the truth speaks to those who love it.
I think Jehovah has in place something within the organization that, in the end, will lead those who love truth in the right direction despite the MOL.

Isaac of Coimbatore

When ever I see comments I usually search yours and read because truly I say that I learned many things from you apart from Robert. Therefore as a show of deep respect that I kept on you, I fold my 2 hands and do namskar to you as you are elder to me both in age and in experience. But the above comment what you have made is like eating honey and milk for me. It encourages me. Sister your comment make lot of sense. I think when many of jws will be stumbled or in confusion to a point of losing faith because of MOL, I think the same what you thought but in addition to that Jehovah will use people like you, me, Robert and many in this site who has the knowledge and love Jehovah (not WTS) to lead the innocents out of the clutches of MOL to the right path during the end. Is my thinking right? Give me a feed back.
Your above comment is echoing still. What an encouragement!!!!! I wish may Jehovah bless you through Jesus and make you one of the anointed.

Huldah

I’m sorry Easac.
I wrote a reply to this beautiful comment of yours, but it somehow disappeared from Disqus.?.

Your caring thoughts brought tears to my eyes and still sustain me through a difficult time this weekend.

I had included this scripture.
Prov. 15
23 A man rejoices in giving the right answer,*+

And a word spoken at the right time—how good it is!+

It applies to both of us!

Maybe my original comment will reappear.

Until then, know I very much value your insights and dilligence in searching the scriptures.

Much Christian love to you and your family.?

Isaac of Coimbatore

Oh really thank you with lot of respect once again namaskar. May you share with me what difficult time you had? Health?

Huldah

Thanks for your concern. My health is good for the most part. I’m plagued by a lot of injustice and it weighs on me heavily emotionally. I guess Satan has been busy in my life for quite a while. I’m trying to let go of some of the pain of the past cruel actions of people. Some days are worse than others.

Your comment was a welcome positive to make realize there are good people in the world and some of what I have been through may be useful in helping others.

Burt Reynolds

I do not know what your troubles are Huldah at this time, but from the clue you give of the actions of others and the impact that has on your life….that much I can understand. I have had, I suppose as we all have, experience of that hurt. I had one that cost me my vocation, my job, my mental health, my physical health and my happiness. To tear out the life of personal vocation in me, brought out a vicious hatred in me that reeked vengence in me for years and worse, in knew how to reek it back too. There was one thing that stopped me, and reasoned on my hurt, and it still acts as a damn today because the hurt never goes away, only deminishes. What helped was the scripture that actually featured in the film, the Passion Of Christ where the orginal language was used, and it was illustrated by the sermon on the mount. The depiction of Christ said, to love your enemies, and with a half smile of inner realisation he added, ‘for what does it benefit you, if you only forgive those that you love?’

From that day to this, I can honestly say that, that half smile of factual realisation of the truth of loving, even those that do us harm, has kept back in me the worst aspects of my character, and preserved the good parts of my character alive and free of conscience which I would otherwise have to bear. Because, had I reacted, I would have had to answer for another scripture, where Jesus looked at his persecutors and said to their faces, ‘forgive them father, for they know not what they do.’ And then, there was the final scripture that my face got rubbed in….’he who is faithful in least, is also faithful in much.’

I do not know what your circumstances are, and I am by no means without similar tendencies to dwell inwardly and let things get to me, but I can relate that the peace of mind I have gained over my circumstances, far and exceeds, the temporary satisfaction I would have have gained by retaliation. It would not have changed to person had I reacted anyway! AND, even if retaliation is by no means in your mind, but grief alone, it has also helped me realise that still retaining love for those that have done me wrong and coming to understand their thinking, has helped me in my own misery and dejection at my loss and by doing so, I have gained a greater peace with the Father. It is that peace with Jehovah that sustains me now, rather than my puny offering in loving someone that I still loath in my heart for their actions if not for the person they are. And if you can understand that, you will know it’s not a contradiction in terms, but a quiet acceptance of faith above the true failings of ourselves, for I know that I abstain from retaliation, more that I do feel love. However, the benefits I have gained through not dwelling inwardly, has rewarded me greatly in peace of mind in following the advice of the father for our inner health and faith. One day, I hope to feel and own the true love that Jesus spoke of for my enemies, fully. Take heart Huldah.

Cathii D’Anthonii

The person that hurt me the most in the truth, apologised on their death bed when that person realized I had not gossiped or lashed out in the congregation about what they had done. It’s hard to deal with …love and hate stops when you no longer have feelings one way or another..wait on Jehovah….that’s what is important, not our own ego or need to prove a point because that gets us nowhere.. There are no perfect people. ..we can’t even imagine a world without demonic influence because we never have had that!!

The Raven

Much as I disliked it when I was told to wait on Jehovah when I could not force myself to follow along or get answers to my questions, I’ve come to realize that those words have great weight. Especially now that I understand what’s happening and why. It’s what I must do if I believe that He and Christ will set matters right.

Burt Reynolds

I read the other day that when hurt enough and often, emotion in that one can die. It’s true, I have often heard in my career of people saying they have no more tears to cry, and that they are numb of feeling. So when you say wait on Jehovah, you are absolutely right. I have a saying personal to me…it does not fit all circumstances, but at least it does inhibit me from over reacting and making things worse. It is this: when you don’t know what to do, do nothing. It certainly helps me in waiting for Jehovah to give me an answer!

Huldah

I don’t have to give you details because Jehovah supplies you with the perfect answer anyway. The HS shows through!

I’m encouraged I can get there too. Not on the other side of some of this stuff yet, but I’m slowly learning coping skills. It’s training, refining.

Isaac of Coimbatore

Yes I read what you mean. I understood. If I would have been in your place I and my wife would have come to your house and spent a day with you and your family to ease your you load.

Huldah

Only those who know TTAT are able to be of comfort. Glad we have this place to fellowship.

It helps to hear comments that support the truth from you and others here.

Another thing to look forward to in the new system, a chance to visit with our friends here personally(if we don’t get to meet on this side of Armageddon)

Isaac of Coimbatore

Oh thanks for your reply.

Huldah

Disqus isn’t working real well for me. I’m not getting all my email notifications and some of my comments are disappearing. I stumbled upon your reply this morning. Glad I did.

Burt Reynolds

I wonder what that might be!

Huldah

Me too

I gave it some thought.
I think it does have something to do with ….

Romans 9

30 What are we to say, then? That people of the nations, although not pursuing righteousness, attained righteousness,+ the righteousness that results from faith;+ 31 but Israel, although pursuing a law of righteousness, did not attain to that law. 32 For what reason? Because they pursued it, not by faith, but as by works. They stumbled over the “stone of stumbling”;+ 33 as it is written: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone+ of stumbling and a rock of offense, but the one who rests his faith on it will not be disappointed.”+

Israel=ritual/rule minded JWs

People of the nations= JWs who are honest in their hearts and recognize that acts of true faith preclude pretentious perfunctory ritualistic service.

Stone of stumbling=
Allowing yourself to be brainwashed to believe that performing a minimum set of rituals or being in a congrgeation can earn you everlasting life. Primarily because it is easier to do this than to make the real sacrifices and effort necessary to live by true faith. It’s easier to follow men.

Romans 9
22 What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction? 23 And if this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy,+ which he prepared beforehand for glory

2Timothy 2:
20 Now in a large house there are utensils* not only of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honorable use but others for a use lacking honor.

Large house=congregation
Two types of vessels.
One exists to test and refine the other.

The first century Jews tested and refined the first century Christians through the crucible.

They were the dishonorable utensils. But the gold and silver were refined by the fire they instigated. Gold cannot be purified apart from fire.

Those hardened in their insistance on law and ritual will be rejected.

Only the refined “gold and silver” will remain in the end.

Richard Long

Excellent reasoning, Huldah! Now if we (this community) could ponder on how large the “large house” really might be.

Sorry you are undergoing tribulations just now. If sharing will help, please do. If sharing will harm, please endure and accept warmest wishes for comfort and peace.

Huldah

It is very helpful to me to have a caring congregation here.

I am reevaluating a lot of beliefs based on just the Bible.

I use the term JW loosely as I consider all here who adhere to the foundational truths of the Bible to be JW or Jehovahs people.

It’s logical many would come to the truth but be scattered by the MOL. Some of the best ones.

Burt Reynolds

It is a strange congregation indeed. Few of us have met, yet we all speak the same language and carry the same identity, if we can overcome ourselves. People will say that such can be found in other congregations but I have never found this to be the case, for one reason. And that is, that the unity does not come from a knowledge of Jehovah, but from themselves. And human affections and unity, do not, as a rule, withstand the trials that they bring with them. Here, the primacy is belief in a being greater than ourselves, and that withstands inspection of his consistency and thus proves his truth. Our unity is in that and it comes before our own needs. Our congregation survives in spite of itself. There is a vast and unfathomable crevasse between the two.

Burt Reynolds

I’m glad you put your own thoughts down here as it makes it so much easier to get a handle on meaning. It’s a good point and you reminded me of the routines of the congregation and a greater appreciation of what it was that I actually did there. For me it was to sit and be bored, but show myself to be a ‘mature’ participant, to have my family under control….or seen to be…to be ‘enthusiastic’. A man-pleaser in every respect, and thus ultimately, a Watchtower pleaser. Now, what has that to do with scripture and faith building and coming to understand Jehovah? What does it have to do with understanding the Father as faith requires? What I was doing for all those years was attending a set watchtower lesson, decided on by some nameless person three thousand miles away in a cosseted boardroom. The song ‘what kind of fool am I ?’ suddenly sprang into my mind just then! I begin to wonder if that ‘thing’ within the watchtower that will suddenly open the eyes of the true congregants, will be nothing more than the exposure of the watchtower and that then leaves the choice to those people. You may be exactly right!

Huldah

Yes JWs will have to choose to see the truth rather than continue to yell out, “The temple of Jehovah we are. The temple of Jehovah, we are!” as the Jews did right before the destruction of Jerusalem.

What I know of your service to Jehovah indicates that you took a stand for what you believed and were not perfunctory. Thus, you received a direct attack from Satan and are facing the natural disillusionment that comes from breaking the delusion, wanting to worship God in truth and finding you have no idea how to do that in the contect of what you have always believed but must now question.

That may happen to many more in the future, but your love of truth gave you a heads up.

sally

Yes but Jesus continued worshipping at the temple despite the shennanigans of the Pharisees? The JW’s are Jehovahs people, just as the Israilites were inspite of their errors we have no scriptural evidence that we should not be attaching ourselves to his people or his house at this time. In fact Matthew 23 v:1-3 says this: Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. Jesus was giving advice on staying within God’s house.

Huldah

Yes
This is a point we have to take to heart, Sally.

So did Anna, Simeon and the needy widow.
This cannot be ignored.
JWs are God’s people, corrupted, but that was foretold to happen.

I do, at this point, feel that the cruelty and brainwashing carried out affects me too dangerously to attend meetings.

I think of the blind man Jesus healed but was disfellowshipped from the temple by the Pharisees for believing something they did not teach, namely believing in Jesus. I would love to gather with some and “incite them to love and fine works” as we are instructed in Hebrews but I would likely be branded apostate or even disfellowshipped.
I will not be able to sit by and watch humble ones get used and abused and not try to show them the error of the organization. I know many who are suffering terribly under the tyranny of WT, but I can say nothing to stop it.

The organization has rejected those who want to believe and promote the truth, because it weakens their power over others.
Just the same as the Pharisees rejected the blind man because they knew the truth about Jesus was a threat to them.

If we cannot serve at their KHs due to this is it our fault or that of the oppressive leaders?

It was foretold that the sheep would be “scattered” right before the end.

Craig Knight

Staying in the WT Org is made nearly impossible once our eye’s have been open to the many errors. If you stayed you’d have to plug up your ears and put duck tape over your mouth so as not to hear the same impotent garbage and not speak out against the WT lies. You are just another WT victim of which there are many many thousands. You should feel proud to have a love for truth after all you are suffered. Anxiety and anger get less and less as time goes by especially when we have a great place like this where questions are welcomed not ignored.

Huldah

I’ve received more true compassion here in a few months than I did in years of going to the meetings. It’s chilling how Satan has successfully imprinted his cold indifferent personality on so many in the organization, especially the prominent ones.

Craig Knight

That’s great Huldah! Great bunch of people here all supporting each other. Just being able to talk to people of like minds is very healing. The devil is very crafty and when you stop and think about it – it makes sense that the Devil would infiltrate God’s people from the inside.

Huldah

Just so you know, I’ve been wrapping up my little Crimson Bellied Conure in her blankie and cuddling her the past couple nights. She loves to be burrow down into the blanket next to your heartbeat. She’s a wild child in the daytime and a docile little “cuddle fish” at night. Night and day literally.

Are these little birds belong to you? Well I like birds very little ones like weaver birds

Huldah

Yes I’m obsessed with birds. I feed them outside and have two small parrots. We feed wild wrens, chickadees, finches, hummingbirds and other smaller birds on our deck.

Burt Reynolds

Those are beautiful birds. We have to make do with plain old sparrows, but nonetheless, it’s great when they use one of my nesting boxes and we get little ones bouncing about the garden under the eyes of their parents.

Craig Knight

What a gorgeous bird! My little parrot Chili is in my shirt right now as I’m writing you, He’s always down in my shirts chewing holes in them. I wear special heavy jean shorts so He has something to chew on to keep him busy. They love to cuddle for sure. I’ll get you picture of Chili if I can figure out how.

Huldah

What we won’t do for our pets! Chili is beautiful too. Suns are striking. I guess I’m kinda glad Zoe doesn’t want to ride around in my shirt and chew holes!!
She has chew toys in her sleep cage and goes to town on them through the night. Quaker parrots are the only parrots who build nests. Elihu, my quaker weaves paper strips all over his cage. Every parrot is unique. Jehovah’s creation is extraordinary. The more you know, the more amazing it becomes.

The second pic looks like bird torture but her feet actually go that way. She’s in her flightsuit which she hates and doesn’t wear much. Lol

I have never heard of quaker parrots that’s pretty interesting. I wrap up Chili in a towel when I need to trim his little sharp nails or trim his flight feathers. Birds are so beautiful and sensitive little creatures. It’s amazing how God made such a great variety of animals for us to enjoy. Chili and Lily my little doxie are my best buddies. Here’s a picture of Lily when she was a pup.

Too cute. Doxie puppies have gotta be some of the cutest. How much does yours weigh?
A guy at the grocery store said he has an adult that weighs 5lbs.

Craig Knight

When we bought Lily we were told that she was a miniature doxie. We wanted a tea cup size. But Lily is around 19 pounds. She’s definitely not a tea cup. But we already fell in love with her so I can’t put her on Craig’s list or Ebay! Ha ha! She brings us so much joy! Chili sometimes falls on the floor off his cage when He gets startled and Lily won’t go after him. She knows He’s a part of her family! She has killed little love birds in the backyard, so she knows to protect little Chili. Our old doxie Oscar had a mean streak but Lily is just pure love, she will lick you silly!

Filled with Earl Grey, a nice dark brew of fine English black tea and just a hint of Bergamot.

I’d spot it anywhere.

Craig Knight

Ha ha that’s hilarious! When that lady that sold me Lily, she wasn’t lying to me, I just didn’t think that there are all kinds of tea cup sizes! Lol!!!

Jamie Mac

G , that’s your spiritual cup, full to the brim 🙂

Huldah

As they say, more to love.

Craig Knight

Absolutely true! 🙂

The Raven

Very cool birds. Those two look sweet. The vet I take my critters to has two huge beautiful macaws in their aviary but you can’t get anywhere near them, both are very ornery.

Huldah

The green one is ornery too. Most of these guys are territorial about their cages because they spend too much time in them. Humans fault. Elihu is territorial, but acts much better away from his territory. But yeah, I wouldn’t put my finger in their cage. I got some awesome macaw pictures in Costa Rica. I’ll upload a few.

Thanks for posting the pic. That’s how I like seeing them, not cooped up and picking their feathers out like some birds do. Beautiful!

Thinking

That’s simply not true….of course anxiety gets less and less..when you leave…your no longer being refined by fire….
In leaving you have also left the wheat…

Beverly kenyon

Matthew13:36-39. Jesus said the FIELD is the WORLD and WHEAT & WEEDS are to be found in the WORLD so therefore Craig Knight only left the “wheat” in that particular religion and of course leaving a person’s anxiety levels will be less or more depending on the trials and tribulations of life in this world….inside or out! When the Master comes, that’s when we will ALL be refined by Fire as there’s a scripture that says he’s coming with terror.

Thinking

Yes sis..he has sown his seeds in the world as all nations are acceptable to him…but as verse 41 of that chapter states ..those weeds or stumbling blocks actually are IN his KINGDOM …..not the world….

Like it or not sis…God does have a house IPeter 4:17….. and whom ever that house is…he will judge it..

Jehovah is the one who has set the Master up to do his work….what’s going on sis…..?

Craig Knight

Yes, the JW’s are God’s people that is true. But who is it that is stumbling who? Is it the regular publisher’s or the GB??? The answer should be obvious. However God will make all things right in his due time. A person who decides to stay with the Org can do so with great difficulty and those like me who have left many years ago can also have God’s favor if we are being obedient and calling upon God for guidance. We all want to see God’s kingdom come. Where ever we find ourselves either in or out of WT, God knows those who love him. I really made an attempt to return to the WT years ago but after all I learned I could not do so with a clean conscience. So here I am waiting for Jehovah to correct his people. I feel like I’m out in the wilderness like the Christians in 66 ce.

Thinking

I understand

Craig Knight

You understand that I’m right? Awesome!!! JUST TEASING 🙂

Thinking

Hahah I could send you a funny here but some might take it the wrong way..so I better not..
And no I’m right and your wrong…but I’ll always be here if you need me…hahahha

Beverly kenyon

I’ll answer the first part of your point about the weeds or stumbling blocks being in HIS Kingdom.

Verse 41 is talking about a future event as the Kingdon isn’t established here on earth yet as that’s why the Lord, Jesus Christ is coming back.

I don’t see the Angels collecting ALL things from his ‘kingdom’ that causes stumbling and people doing lawlessness as verse 42 goes on to say, the Angels will pitch them into the fiery furnace.

Aren’t there ones in the WT org causing stumbling and aren’t there ones doing lawlessness as aren’t they under the influence of the MOL as we’ve discussed that very subject meant times.

Then verse 43 goes on to say, the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.

Maybe, I need to get to Specsavers as I’m not seeing faces shining as bright as the sun.

As for your other point of me liking or not which btw, the only thing I like about God having a house is whether that claim is true or not based on what the Heavenly Father himself has to say on that matter through his word the Bible…….I will answer that point you brought up later on as I have to get to my place of work on time.

Daisy

Are you still believing the lie sis lol as we’re still praying for His Kingdom to “COME” are we not ? and thank goodness, as those chosen worthy of the inheritance of eternal life on the earth still have time to work on the identifying marks Christ and his angels will be looking for when he separates the weeds from the wheat during the future harvest. ..all to be revealed in the FUTURE parousia when “thy kingdom” is a reality.

Thinking

Huh??? What on earth is going on in this comments section. Oh well ….sounds like another victor invasion. I wish you well Daisy

Truth

I’ve been a watcher on this site for two years now and I feel I have to finally comment. I’ve been reading your comments thinking, ever since you turned up. Wouldn’t you agree that it is a wild accusation to accuse ones of being like the false prophet Victor. I remember that Victor fiasco and how he carried off ones from this website like prey. Reading your unkind post reminds me of these two scriptures.
Galatians 4:16 “Have I now become your enemy by telling your the truth” NIV.
John 8:45-46 “So when I tell the truth you just naturally don’t believe me.” NLT.
“Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?. If I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me?” NLT.
I think these 2 scriptures apply to your accusations and to some of your posts. I say this with Christian love Thinking, stop being one sided, close minded, unreasonable and suffering from tunnel vision. You expect everyone to listen to your words but ignore the words of others. It has to be your way or the highway.

sally

No. It has to be Jehovahs way or the highway. I have to say I am completely flabagasted that you describe Thinkings post as “unkind”. It makes me wander where you are from and why are you here?

Truth

Your right sally, it is yahweh or the highway. I can ask you the same questions, where are you from and why are you here?. I’ll answer one of your questions, I am a Christian. Thinkings comment was unkind because she was alluding that certain ones were in the same bracket as Victor. Thinkings unkind post was directed to a person who was scripturally correct. Now I’ll ask you a question, was that person lying?

sally

I believe your comment to Thinking went deeper than her alluding to the victor fiasco You said: “I’ve been reading your comments thinking, ever since you turned up” and then explaining how you have been watching for 2 years but somehow felt compelled for the first time to post based on that? I don’t know what is happening around here right now but I just hope Robert sorts it out soon.

Richard Long

Sally, I think we should take Truth at their word. And their statements in the context of the order given. First was the announcement of time watching in silence, THEN the statement regarding Thinking’s commenting history. One can read the entire body of another’s commentary in their disqus log by clicking on that one’s name. I am also making an assumption, but I read Truth’s comment to Thinking to suggest Truth had done just that, recently.

Yes you are quiet right Truth..it did sound like a terrible comment and for that I apologize for the way it came across …sorry Daisy…but I have noticed a real change in the comments section of late…
Sorry if my speaking up offends you Truth …but I always will try to encourage ones to stick with Gods house if at all possible…if that means I’m branded as trying to gather followers ..well so be it…
Truth i have been on Roberts comments and forum for nearly eight years…I don’t always comment …but I do when I see ones trying to imply that Jehovah does not have a house..a people ..and when the hurt and battered sheep …are being seduced into leaving his house…or to weaken ones faith on Jehovah’s still standing house.
I make no apologies for that….and will continue to do so..
Daisy asked me if I still believed the lies….and I questioned that…her post was utterly confusing to me…as she knows I don’t beleive the lies…
But my victor quote was out of line and for that I stand corrected and apologize.
Sis thinking

KB

As you know I attend the meetings. Just wanted to share my feelings from this weeks mid week meeting. The 3rd from the last part started with watching a video of a man in prison, it looked like a flash back from WWII. The man in charge told the young man he could tend to his dying father and be released from prison, if he would renounce his religion. Of course he wouldn’t do that and that was mainly the point of the part, to remain faithful to Jehovah. My problem with this is that every form of pure worship has be destroyed, since Jesus day. The faithful slave puts the JW religion in the place of Jehovah. The prison official clearly said to renounce your religion, he didn’t say to renounce your god. I have a problem with this. This is what the branch is teaching, they are putting the JW organization in place of Jehovah and nobody even realizes it. In the future we need to remain faithful to god not an organization, but what is being taught is to be faithful to the direction of Jehovah’s earthly organization as if it’s the same thing as Jehovah. I WANTED TO SCREAM!!!

The next part was a video on shunning disfellowshipped family members. Need I say more! At this point I wanted to walk out. The meeting put me in a bad mood the rest of the night. Going to these meetings is pretty much a complete waste of time and energy. But I’m trying too. Just thought I’d vent a little.

Anderiega

Hello Brother KB, thanks for venting. I totally hear you. I too wanted to scream during the video about shunning. Actually I wanted to grab the microphone and read the softer version of shunning presented to the public off of jw,org (“What of a man who is disfellowshipped but whose wife and children are still Jehovah’s Witnesses? The religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue.”) BUT I didn’t!

I guess we (those of us who have the privilege and burden of being “awake”) are just getting a tiny taste of how much annoyance, pain, frustration, sadness, and all around bad mood Jehovah and Jesus must feel when they see how once again God’s people turn what started as a Bible study group searching for truth (early Bible students) into another version of Babylon (Tower of Babel today is WOL…watchtower online library).

Things ARE getting bad at the KH, which must mean that Jesus is closer than ever before…please keep hanging on brother…hopefully people like us will get to be used in special ways to help our brothers and sisters who will be so confused when they see God’s organization being judged and not Christendom. My understanding is so so limited, but I dont think it’s time to “Get out of Her MY people” just yet. Keep hanging on!

Thinking

The trouble is brother..that’s often how captors say it..
They call it a religion….or your faith….from my poor memory and the concentration survivors of brothers and sisters In World War Two…I don’t think they ever said to them they were to renounce their God…it was to sign a form to renounce their faith or religion..but I’m just going by memory.
Personally I don’t have a problem with that…but yeah I did not like the shunning video at all…it was at our last assembly and the weeds talking if ever there was weeds…I brought it up in our car group on the way home…and discussed tactfully the dangers f applying that as it was promoted….
KB…it so very very hard to keep going…and yeah I feel like screaming to…at times…but we both know this all has to play out…and why it is like it is…and that helps me after I have calmed down..

I’m like you..I go home all down and angry…but then I ponder on it..an how bad the Kings were …and just how far Jehovah allowed them to go in their wickedness….that actually amazes me as to how truly wicked they were allowed to go….
The interesting point about the Kings that were wicked is they never ever ruled as long as the good kings…Jehovah always cut them short…
Patterns of ancient times and his people are bing repeated.KB..and it’s not easy…it’s genuinely hard….and our fight is against the wicked spirit forces…amd we know Satan has infiltrated ….but these weeds will be allowed to remain right to the end brother…

We need to adapt..but it’s okay to feel the frustration and anger….it’s good!!!!…you are being marked with the inkhorn from the man in linen…
He is search Jeruselum with a lamp for ones like you KB….

Do you have a support system Brother….I wish I could talk privately with you but I dont know how to manage that one …if you have any ideas or even would like that yell out…

Remember Jesus’s yoke is light…so don’t feel you have to do it all…just do what you can honestly cope with…..
You need to find like minded ones as yourself.KB…you NEED that type of association…we are in the last days…
I have….we support each other …you need that too…
So what you are feeling is normal…you are not complacent..as to what is going on…
There is so much I could say but this is not the place for it KB…
I so get you!…

Malachi 3:16
At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another ..each one with his companion..and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening..

KB

I have a pretty good support system. My wife knows most of the things I know from this website. She’s just trying to fit in, but knows there is something really wrong with the organization. She’s so busy she doesn’t really have a desire to read these articles, or comment on here. We both have a lot of family in the “truth”. My best friend knows the real deal too. He reads watchman but doesn’t comment on here. My private email is, icanhandlethetruth13@gmail.com feel free to email me. I email wth Beverly a lot, she’s a wonderful sister.

Song of Hannah

I really appreciated your comments here, KB! My husband and I also have great difficulty with the midweek meeting. Many times it is so discouraging, that it takes a couple days to recover emotionally. So for our own sanity, my husband and I only attend the midweek meeting about once a month. But we both have decided based on the example of Anna and Simon, that we still need to associate with the brothers at the meetings, so we make a special effort to make every Sunday possible. (I should say this is a personal decision that we have made, and we do not judge anybody else’s personal decision either way.)

KB

Thanks. I agree with you. There is only a select few I chose to associate with. Most have their head so far up the organizations ass I just really don’t want to be around them. Of course most keep there distance from me anyway. We all have to make a choice whether to attend the meetings or not. Everyone has their reasons one way or the other.

Daisy

Of course I know you don’t believe the lies Thinking. That’s why I added lol and an emoji wink!
But this is not a Kingdom Hall, it’s Roberts blog and he gives ALL of us the freedom to express ourselves. . .and he is perfectly capable of editing and censoring anything he finds offensive .
What you wish to read into my comments is purely within your own heart… and not mine.
So I’d appreciate less suspicion as to my motives , which I don’t feel I need to defend as they do not include any desire from me to stumble nor seduce or any other emotional blackmail words you care to think up and apply to my good self …as I was one of those hurt and battered sheep for 61 years but now I am not a product of imperfect men’s traditions and therefore any condemnation of myself is water off a ducks back.
The irony of your unnecessary outburst is that I was purely quoting from the bible …and not like yourself encouraging the reading of a demonically spirit written book that you quite happily promoted on this blog.
How about that heinous evil book as being your own means of a stumbling block.
Ps. Nobody commented on that fact I noticed.
Time to take the beam out of your own eye sis.
And I wish you well also in the same manner you wish me well, truly Daisy

Thinking

That’s fair enough Daisy..

Richard Long

I missed the book being promoted???? Please don’t make me read anyone’s comment log to know what you are referring to.

Thinking

I wasn’t promoting the book Richard..I was trying to kindly show that Rutherford didn’t write the book at all..but the society did print it…..there are two thoughts on the book…from the world ..and other churches and faiths…..it was demonically written….and it was a work of fiction by some biblical scholar…..personally I have never found out which was true …….and who did write the book…and yes I did read it….I read heaps of books in my two years of inactivity…everything the society said not to read I tended to read…

Richard Long

Uh, ok. Thanks for explaining. I myself watched a video on the book of Enoch this week, so who am I to say what another Christian should or shouldn’t be reading/viewing? I WILL skip THAT read though, if it’s all the same to you! ?. Beverly’s synopsis was sufficient for me.? Peace to you and your house.

KB

I downloaded Angels and Women to my iPad. When I get bored at the meetings I read it. Its hard for me to follow but it’s kind of interesting. It’s better than listening to the BS from the platform. Hey and it’s a “Watchtower” publication right, so I can’t really get in trouble for that.

Richard Long

Too funny!

Thinking

Hey KB …I cruise this site that has heaps of talks that go way back …most I don’t listen to but now and then there is a gem…tonight I started to listen to one by brother Herd about giants…would you beleive the first five minutes he talked about this book…I’ll try to paste it here..but anyway the brothers back then certainly stated it was just a book of fiction….that’s what they believed at that time…I must have read this nearly a decade ago and tried to find the authors back ground .
I was reasonably satisfied it was a work of fiction from a woman who was a novelist but also a scholar of the bible…any way here it is …you can work it out for yourself…I certainly don’t beleive it to be a work of demonism…and Rutherford certainly never wrote it ..
There are actually three talks on giants…so eventually I’ll listen to them all..

I me seed that book Daisy. Can you tell me what it is so I can get a balance. Message if you like. I hope all is going well with you. X

Daisy

If you go on Sis Thinking Disqus you’ll get the title.
Then go on Beverly’s, she’ll explain what it’s about, as she does, love her!
Will message asap. House hunting today!

Huldah

I don’t know anything about a specific book.

This is a good place to post this though.
Please let me inform as a reply to you Burt.

Much of the ideas flying around ewatchman these days are not the thoughts of posters innocently trying to work the truth out for themselves.

I do not know an exact source and perhaps some individual group on the net has reformed the thoughts and added a bit of their own……

But everyone here should first understand.
Primarily, these ideas originate with Ray Franz.
Now you can evaluate them with all the information.
He presents almost all that is being insinuated here in his two books, “Crisis of
Conscience” and “In Search of Christian Freedom”

Examples are

-the idea that the name Jehovah’s Witnesses is Biblically inaccurate
-the related idea that the Greek Scriptures do not emphasize the name Jehovah, but instead emphasize Jesus’ name and the preaching of his gospel
-the related idea that the pronunciation of the name is from a Catholic monk and thus should be discarded
-the idea that there is not an actual, 144,000, but that all Christians have the goal of going to heaven
-the idea that God does not have an organization, but accepts any Christians that strive to serve him wherever they are
-the idea that the preaching work has not been completed in the world by JWs because there are so many lands where there are few witnesses so we can’t say that only witnesses can be saved as this would be arbitrary and unjust, favoring wealthier freer lands over others
-the idea that the preaching work is not the important thing, but our Christian living is most important, worship being all we do to please God and care for others
-the idea that there was no governing body in the first century, thus there should be none amongst JWs today
-the exposure of arrogance and mishandling of their shepherdship by the leadership of JWs past and present, especially past presidents and GB members
-the question of the blood issue being relevant
-of course the false date, 1914

And much much more…

I do not disagree with all of the ideas he presents. I do not, however, accept wholly all that he taught and believed. I am glad to have his insights, but I can see why Jehovah does not want us to go off teaching on our own because we can drag away ones who perhaps have not built up such a strong foundation in study of the scripture. Even if all we say is accurate. Many may not understand the full significance of the things we might reveal before their time or we may present them in a connotation that removes other ideas that bear upon them heavily. Such as the existence of the MOL and the prophetic significance of a false parousia effecting the house of God, which Raymond does not address in his writings, but Robert reveals to us here.

I believe in all fairness.
I seek, in this post, to level the playing field.
You should be allowed to decide for yourself whether or not you want to look into Ray Franz’s books, not have them thrust upon you slyly as if they originated from the independent research of a few of your friends.

I thought everyone here was supposed to at least respect and acknowledge that our host, clearly and scripturally, has represented to us that JW’s are Jehovah’s house, though in the same state as apostate Judaism. That the prophecies he illuminates here come to their alignment only in the acceptance of that fact. What are we here for at all, if we don’t really believe in the fundamental foundation on which Robert has built his study of the scriptures? Where would Raymond Franz’s knowledge of the scriptures have been without JWs? Where would mine be? (I can speak because I know the hell they put me and my beloved mother and husband through.)

The Raven

That’s interesting. I didn’t know this about those ideas. I read one of Franz’s books years ago and I can’t remember half of what he said. But I do know what I found here is like nothing I have ever seen before. I’ve been wondering the same about these comments of late and as you know I support what Robert has done and I have no problem saying so. We talked about revealing this to others and I remember saying that was a bad idea since we don’t know what all we are dealing with considering the delusion. I am still creeped out by that, TBH. I decided not to do that with certain ones. Others, seemed to have had their eyes opened gradually and could handle it. Burt made a very good post on that issue when I commented to Richard I would not press that with active witnesses. ” We must not poach from Jehovah’s house”, or something to that effect and the reasons why.

Beverly kenyon

Pfftt. Bollocks. I have never in my life read anything by Ray Franz, Fred Fanz. I can happily spend £20 or how much his books cost, on real things. This ‘poster’ innocently reads her Bible and that’s how I’m trying to work the Truth of God’ Word out for myself. I’ll take God’s “ideas” over your’s Huldah any day. Now I know why you call yourself Huldah. Prophetess you are NOT! Stop presuming everyone thinks the same as you do! Because I don’t talk your language you think some of us have ulterior motives.

I can put my hand on my heart and say in all honesty I have NEVER read a WORD Ray Franz has written.

FYI, I’m still firmly in control of my free will, conscience and mind as I’ve not handed those gifts from God over to an institution run by a heirarchy of imperfect men!

Huldah

Thinking. I sent you an email.

Anderiega

Please don’t say that Thinking is like Victor ?. May Jehovah please protect this group of free thinkers and speakers. So much gets lost in translation and mucked up with words. I think we’re ALL feeling the pressure of chaos and Satan’s whacking our little bee hive here. Hornets like Victor (and who knows, there’s still hope for him!) have come in here disguised as bees. We ALL keep each other in check here and appreciate that so much about each and every of us. I’m sorry to butt in here Truth. Let’s all keep making honey together!! Thank you for sharing those scriptures.

Burt Reynolds

You have me confused now Daisy. I was under the impression that though there are of course opportunities to turn to the father and Jesus at this time, it is those that are preventing such by their stumbling blocks who will be judged at the parousia. After all, if there is not some measure of culpability now for the things being done, of what value is a judgement if it is not based on faith, but on factual observation? Everyone would drop what they are doing and suddenly ‘repent’!

Richard Long

At the parousia is not before the parousia. All things in their due season. Awakening from the delusion has meant we realize that rather than being late in the season panting on to the end as the WT has taught us, we are, in fact, awaiting the seasons arrival, no?

Burt Reynolds

Yes that is what I understood, but are not people making a path for themselves also at this time both in good and bad ways? I understand there is a test during the parousia, but surely what we are doing now is an indicator, as Daisy said, ‘working on the identifying marks.’ Personally, though I agree with some issues pertaining to stay in the congregation, though I don’t see any evidence of being refined by fire as Thinking suggests, though she may well have a point. Surely the refining is in our standing of cleanliness rather than patience in staying in such iniquity.

I was discussing this point with Sally as she is a firm believer in a reason to stay. I would not contradict either Sally or Thinking on this point, but my problem is largely as stated in my comment to Sally…..if you can make head or tail of it! I ramble. From my point of view, I cannot unite the Father with what is going on in the watchtower, but I have to recognise that his thinking is not mine. But, that does not mean I should accept anyone’s opinion blindly. After all, would not Satan want us to stay in the lie, long after it was time to get out!?

As I said to Sally, what can we do by our attendance? We are damned if we speak and damned if we don’t. Sally says it’s being there that counts and I agree with her stand, but for me, I feel, not uncomfortable….I can sit and listen the same as everyone else….but how does sitting in that mess make my hidden thinking and knowledge acceptable to everyone else? But again, is that for me to decide?

Further, the early Christians got out three years before the end came in 70AD and did not some drift back and were caught? There was a test in going for that length of time. Three years of nothing. You can imagine the family arguments! Maybe what we should be doing is standing outside and warning….staking our claim of faith. But then where or what is the disgusting thing? Is it one item, or many? Do we have prophesy correct? Has not the Roman ‘army’ of dissent already appeared in Russia, or should we ignore that? What about the world wide condemnation of the child abuse scandal; the UN membership? The issues for separation to preserve our moral standing are already here, but Sally and Thinking can argue the point well for staying. I’m by no means convinced in my own thinking so will not discount theirs. In fact, their argument probably has more merit than mine, but I still think there is room for the matter to be discussed more deeply because these issues of association are important to all of us…the moreso as the ‘temple of the heart’ is also in the equation from the point of view of its intent.

I do not want, for instance, to be seen to be associating with an organisation whose leadership still try to cover over child abuse and rob its congregants of truth. The Roman army did nothing more that sit outside Jerusalem to trigger the sign. I don’t suppose, though it might be nice to know, if the entire congregations up and and left at the same time, or just dribbled out as is happening now. I can imagine their arguements as to what and when were much the same as we are having now. Neither does it help that I argue from a point of ignorance on the matter as it is!

Thinking

I really get you on this Burt…but it’s sort of easier for me..because I no longer beleive he was talking about our generation…of this time..I don’t beleive we have to flee…..but I dont want to open up a can of worms either,..but what did the Russian brothers have to flee from….they had it all taken from them…now I don t know if that was Jehovah removing the weeds or not….but if we are going to lose everything in our disciplining…what will we be fleeing from?
I also beleive Satan is even down here now…Robert even alluded to that in one of his articles ….
So my decisions are made on different view points than what you have..and I’m not even sure I’m right…but it’s my leaning..at this time..
Im preety sure we may have a few surprises ahead of us….

Burt Reynolds

That’s an interesting point…what shall we be fleeing from…The scripture points out that the fleeing will be so as not to share in her judgement. I would think then that what that is saying, it sharing in her teachings, her beliefs, carrying out her beliefs, joining in her compromises. I don’t think it has any material issues attached unless money be one of them along with our pride, avarice, selfishness etc.

I don’t know if Satan is down here. Is there enough evidence to think that he is given the current world climate as we see it? My senses tell me that if he was, we would be seeing confusion far beyond what we have now. That the Great War and Second World War and Spanish flu are not counted as evidence of his presence unless we are to assume Satan was thrown down in 1914…..then we have nothing of equal as yet to say he is here…except perhaps the growing madness. But the bible speaks of him as having great anger. Well, the greatest anger I see is Teresa May and Boris arguing and the EU asking for 20 billion pounds from us. However, if Trump unleashes his fireworks then yes, I would tend to think that someone else is at the helm. I tend to think if we have a spirit creature directing things on earth, and who is allowed power enough to contend with Jesus and heaven, then we will know about it when he gets here. I hope so anyway. I don’t want to be in any doubt. I think we have absolutely no idea what what this chap is about. I would like to agree with you that he’s already here if the current state of affairs is anything to go by, but…..I think we can expect a better show than this.

sally

Hello Burt I read this comment earlier in the day at my lunchbreak at work. I had so much in my head I wanted to to say when reading it and planned on getting it all down when I got home from work. But Friday night brain drain, along with a heavy cold has made for the moment most of what I was thinking….leave!
However I remember some of it so will put it down as much as I can considering the above.
Your right when you say I am a firm believer in a reason to stay. Burt I have tried and tried hard to find reasons NOT to stay. The reason for that is because, and I am going to be completely honest here, I have almost nothing good to say about what I have seen and expereinced in the congregation. Indeed if you remember back when I first came to this site, it was after I had become so miserable in studying and going to the KG that I had actually concluded that whilst having found Jehovah I did not want to be saved because I would not be happy and that I would obey him out of love but did not want to live in “paradise” of course it was me that was the problem because they the JW’s were Gods chosen people so they had to be right and i had to be wrong. I accepted that, prayed to God my distress and before I know what is happening I bowl up here. I did not even know that the JW’s were scripturally wrong at that point so green was I. So I have been wanting out before I even found the beautiful truths here. Before I got to know the horrors of the lies, the abuse, the UN, all of it. I hate going. I am nearly almost shunned by lots. I have super shallow conversations by those who do speak to me. And am patronised out of my mind by the same ones. I kid you not I have got as far as cocking one leg out the car when arriving in the car park to people walking past me going “well done for coming” If I had a pound for everytime someone robotically said that as passing me I would not need to go to work to earn my living.
Then I listen to shallow talks with people parroting back what has just been read to them. Blatant GB Worship talks, 1914 the lot of it. I drive there in a rage, pray to Jehovah to keep me calm and have to at some points let my mind wander as what am listening to is driving me mad. Then I leave, wound up and depressed and angry. I have become adept at dodging the ex study sister who pursues me for recommencing my bible study through to baptism. Alhtough it is not easy. She told me when I was studying although i did not understand it at the time that I helped her report sheet. I am convince that my study sister is a weed, a very big one. After all her self serving selfish, arrogant judgemental behaviour who LOVES having her ears tickled (truly believes an angel is going to guard her door for 3 days whilst a couple of riots go on in the street then its going to be paradise I kid you not). Brags about how she knows nothing that goes on in the world and does not watch news because she only needs to listen to the GB. Yes that person pursues me and I have to manage that and its stressful. I can say these things with confidence because that person was the first red flag if you like a big reason why i prayed to Jehovah I did not want to live in paradise. He did not let me walk away did he? he brought me here.
Anyway, the reason for saying these things is this. Everyone who does not attend does not attend because they can’t face it. All good reasons its pretty unfaceable most of the time when you are awake to what is going on, but I want to make two points.
Despite it all, despite the fact that I hate going I do not get my spiritual food from going, and it makes me mad, depressed, indignant, bitter even, I still cannot find scriptural proof that is clear to see that I should not go. Believe me I am looking, I learn another horror like the other day the Danish building so satanic it make you puke. I was like “right I am done I am never going near the JW’s again” then rant and then I calm down. Because I am looking for a reason but the bible is not giving one to leave Jehovah’s house. Trust me as soon as it becomes clear, they all better get out the way due to be trampled down by me getting out first. I am more than ready.
Secondly, and this is the most important reason. More important than anything else.
Jesus Christ. When I first learned the truth and I studied the ransom sacrifice and understood it, it moved me like nothing moved me before. It hurt my heart to read what Jesus went through, so much that I don’t like to read that part of the bible because its so painful. Jehovahs pain at having his son go through that cannot be imagined. Jesus did it for us. For our hope to be free of this evil world and live forever. His suffering on that stake is unimaginable. Not only that but the humiliation and degradation his captors put him through before they put him to death is heart rendering reading. He was the bravest man on earth ever, the most selfless man on earth ever because he didn’t have to do it, he did it for us.
If Jesus Christ can go through that so I have the hope of living on paradise earth in beautiful peace, justice and harmony because I have been forgiven all my sins – then I can go and suck it up at the KH for a bit.
If Jehovah can send his son, and watch that horrendus scenario of his beloved and perfect first born so that I can get redemption and live a beautiful forever life, then I can go suck it up at the KH for a bit.
Jehovah provides places like this, for those wanting the real truth to make it a little easier to bare. But i think that going to the KH is training for what is to come (but that is me speculating)
So I go, I sit meekly and mildly, I don’t let my inner torment show, they have no clue. I accept that they see me as spiritually weak. I let their judgement of me go over my head and just do my best.
Do not get me wrong, I don’t go to the mid week meeting I only go Sunday and not every sunday either, sometimes becasue of other committments, sometimes I intend to go but can’t face it. But I do go, and do my best. I feel I owe Jesus that much until it is clear as day is day and night is night that I should get out.

Richard Long

And THAT is an expression of faith. Thank you for trusting us with it.

sally

Thank you RIchard, that is it…..one word….faith. We got to keep testing it to make sure we have got it. Because when Jesus returns as King we are going to need it in bucket loads.

Burt Reynolds

Hello Sally, what can one say? I think your story here reflects the conflict of mind about as accurately and insightfully as it can possibly be said in watchtower terms. I think you touched every feeling I have had on this matter, not least the one where you feel you would not want to be in the kingdom with some of these people. That was a thought of mine for a long, long time and still is when I look at the way some in the governing body have treated the flock. Knowing what they do, and working so contrary to the spirit is just diabolical. We would be swapping one world for one with more of the same. Certainly the meetings should never be as appallingly draining on your spirit as you describe and it is no wonder that some choose not to attend for the sake of their wellbeing. The way people patronise you is galling, but has to be forgiven of them because they think they are being ‘encouraging’ even though they speak having the approval of others….I.e., ‘I’m okay, you are not okay.’ Your study conducter as described seems to fulfil the epitome of the blindness referred to in the bible. I can’t help but feel sorry for her, but it is a prime example as to why we need to refer all our beliefs back to the bible. Jesus on numerous occasions began his reply….’it is written….’ and the reason he said that, still stands today. A theory is not a theory unless it is written down, as you are aware, and thus can be referenced. Though Jesus was not theorising, he recognised that to be taken on a serious level, and to ‘prove’ his facts for faithless humans, he had to refer to the same written word that they did….but with insight. And that insight floored them every time.

I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who, in reference to her ‘plain’ looks, said that ‘No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.’ What concerned me most about your story was how down trodden you feel and the resultant feelings forced upon you. What should have been a gathering of like minds and fellowship, was reduced to a conflict of the ( perceived) ‘spiritually’ strong, raising themseleves up over the ( perceived) ‘spiritually’ weak and in their ignorance, treading you down. To say don’t let them do it to you is rather glib, and without a solution, becomes just an empty sound bite. Perhaps it might be as well to recognise that in attending Jehovah’s arrangement as you do, you are probably the only one there who understands why you are there, and that you carry the truth with you. I cannot repeat the quote accurately, but I recall Jesus asking his accusers why they reviled him for speaking the truth. Have you ever thought about asking those people that ‘congratulate’ you on turning up, why it is that they do not speak with you then? Or, why you are left isolated, or why people will only pass an innocuous greeting at you? Just what is it that makes them treat you so coldly? Ask them! ( if you want). If you challenge, they will answer. If they answer, then you have an opening, to use as you see fit to make your experience at the hall more bearable for you. As Eleanor said, if you give them permission to treat you this way, they will take it. ( I recall when I was at school, the boy behind me always used to tread on my heels when we walked in ‘orderly fashion’ into morning chapel. We were also supplied at school, with ‘school clogs’…thick soled army style shoes that were like wearing a brick on your foot . So I turned round and hackec him hard on his shins with them, and thus we became friends. You are a friend of Jehovah. You do not need to have his other friends treading on your heals. Sometimes it’s the bully that needs waking up. Not the bullied. What ever you do, do with a glad heart. ?

sally

Thanks for your reply Burt it is very much appreciated. You say that you have also had this conflict and these feelings, I think pretty much everybody does, except some are expert at pretending differently to the extent that they convince themselves that they are in sprititual paradise and any negativity they feel is due to “the world” and nothing to do with the org. Whilst I appreciate your advice about opening up conversations. Trust me, that would not be a good idea. I think I probably am in a congregation where there is no holy spirit at all. It is a cold unfriendly place – in the early days of attending I was sitting there asking myself “where is the love? I can’t feel any love here at all? They are all sitting in judgement of each other, It was terribly disappointing to me at the time (as I expected so much more before I actually went to a meeting due to what they said in the literature and how it was sold to me by the study sister). However, the body of elders are GB diehards. They talk about “trouble makers” and from what I can make out rule with a rod of iron. They do not look after their flock, there are “cliques” within the congregation to In a way, as someone who likes to look at the bigger picture, analysing and assessing as I go (the social worker in me) it is also facinating to watch. Well it is now that i know this is NOT God’s will. My study sister was actually abusive to me she talked to me like I was her dog. However I came to these conclusions before I knew the real truths but kept quiet, smiled continued to study hard although really very confused by it all. I prayed and Jehovah heard me and saved me. So, how I handled it must be right and therefore I will continue in the same vein, but differenetly in that I am no longer an official student on the org’s baptism conveyor belt. I don’t worry about baptism now like I did before as I know when Jesus is crowned King he will make a way if I make the grade so to speak and even if it happens in a cold muddy puddle it won’t matter because it will be beautiful and pure a dedication to our heavenly father, through our lord and saviour Jesus Christ. No Burt right now these people do not want truth, they want their ears tickled they see themselves as “righteous” and those who behave that way are arrogant and are above everybody else. I just do want to point out, that there are some lovely people there, meek and mild and warm friendly and….victims. I go for them and fantasise that when the time comes I can stick my neck out and be with those ones and share what I know and help pick them up. But I have to be there and know them to be able to do that if I am fortunate enough to be blessed to do that. So for now I will put up with being trodden on, keep asking Jehovah to forgive my rants and anger when it bubbles up inside of me, keep trying to duck and dive the pursant study sister and just as I said before suck it up. I give you my heartfelt thanks though for your concerns about my well-being, I am ok. I only really shared what I have on here to explain my reasons for going, and putting up with it all.

Burt Reynolds

May Jehovah continue to bless you Sally for your faith and perseverance. The watchtower needs social workers like you!

Thanks Kevin, I often think the songs are the best part of the meetings.

Huldah

Yes faith is being put to the test now. We are being refined now so we can stand then. We can’t expect a comfortable life now or an easy religion with no challenge to our faith.

As you say many will recognize when its obvious we are at the end game. Not many will transition from a spirit of ease and self indulgence to a spirit of endurance and sacrifice for what they believe then. Every runner runs the way he has trained himself to run, when the day of the race arrives.

How do we reconcile that Christ’s “yoke is kindly and his load us light” when we know that the Christian who is yoked to Christ is dragging along behind them both a torture stake?
Matthew 16
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake* and keep following me.+

Burt Reynolds

Until I left the congregation, I viewed those scriptures as incompatible. They were inconsistent with what I experienced in the congregation, which at that time, I saw as synonymous with Jehovah’s arrangement. Since learning the truth I see how they both compliment each other. The kindly yoke, and easy load, is the knowledge of the truth, the confidence that it brings, the assurance, the hope, the place upon which to rest faith. To me, it is as light as a feather and my life is changed. Indeed, it is an assured expectation. The torture stake, is the willingness, like Christ, to see that faith through to the bitter end if need be. It does not make the load heavier, it makes the load worth while and an endurance to endure the stake. Knowing what was coming, did not rob Jesus of his joy in serving Jehovah. Jesus did not say that the torture stake was a certain end, but inferred perhaps that we have to own it if necessary, perhaps the same way as we are taught to ‘own’ the responsibility of faith, to live it, to fight Satan. Faith is Something to rejoice in, in that its opposer will end. There will be a kingdom. There will be peace. Torture does not alter that truth or make it heavier. The truth allows us to meet such an end though, in confidence and faith. After all, as Jesus hung on the stake, he had nothing either, except confidence and faith and the love of righteousness. This may not be the correct way to reconcile those two scriptures, but we can be confident that Jehovah would not have something written in the bible that was irreconcilable with the truth.

Huldah

You said
“The torture stake, is the willingness, like Christ, to see that faith
through to the bitter end if need be. It does not make the load heavier,
it makes the load worth while and an endurance to endure the stake.
Knowing what was coming, did not rob Jesus of his joy in serving
Jehovah.”

Great point.
When we know that it is for Christ and Jehovah that we suffer, it is a glory and fight worthwhile. And we can look intently at the reward ahead. This is why frontal attacks are so often much easier for Christians to bear. When we don’t know, we second guess ourselves and condemn ourselves for our weakness. This compounds the torture stake. Satan is actively using this. Think of poor Job, not knowing why he faced such turmoil and his vile false comforters doing the work of Satan, by accusing him of suffering for his own unfaithfulness!!

Arvid Fløysand

Hi Hulda 🙂
Good thing that you mention Job….i have been thinking of him too…i belive that it is wise of us to try to prepare as good as we can on a similar situasion …

Are we ready for it?….We must be strong and put all our faith in Jehovah be cause everything and every one may turn out to dissapear ore walk away from us..
That will maybe be the ultimate test for all of us.
If we loose absolutely everything…even our understanding of the truth…but still got one single ting left….the same one and most important thing that Lot had…to love Jehovah and our neighbor (Mark 12:30,31)

We are fortunate to have some steady solid footsteps to follow all the way into the Kingdom both heaven and earth…Jesus very own footsteps 🙂

Huldah

Very true. Arvid

You nailed it!

Here’s a quote ” God breaks those he wants to make great. …He makes you hungry before He feeds you! He strips you before He robes you! He makes nothing of you before He makes something of you!” CH Spurgeon

I have often used this analogy.
Not everyone knows that a caterpillar nearly dissolves completely in it’s cocoon before it reforms into a beautiful butterfly. Jehovah dissolves us through these trials. The ones that are here now, especially, and proves us through the ones that are coming or a little of both.

Daisy

Jw.org dissolves us through man made traditions, rule after rule, command upon command, and its Holy Spirit that makes us into a beautiful butterfly.
Who on earth is CH Spurgeon I’d like to know…I will google so no need to reply. ?

The Raven

I’m going to guess that this means all Jehovah’s people. Whether they remain active or not. Hmm, Because I know a number, including myself who have been dragged through our own hell and some still are. I used to be baffled at how some of us could have such rotten luck. The odds of some of these things happening over and over were outrageous. I don’t wonder about that anymore. If that also qualifies as refining then, I would have to think more about it. My thought is that even though my family has faced direct attacks and we remained as followers albeit outside and spoke about this with many ( I couldn’t shut up) , I didn’t think the devil would trifle with me since the org did not consider me after their cut off point of about 5-6 months.
Apparently after all these years and all this suffering, It appears I may be wrong. Something to think about.

Anderiega

Whoa…that hit me in my gut…in a good way. I DO feel better when I stay home from a meeting (usually…not always) but I appreciate your language “When you leave you are no longer being refined by fire.” Ok….back to the furnace for me!! LOL

Thinking

Hey I feel better when I stay at home lots of time too sis…and I do….I’m not regimented anymore….and where did three meeting ever come from anyway…and where does two meetings come from….hey I’m all about Balance….our yoke has been lightened because he has shown us why things are like they are…..we can now serve him in Gods house in the way we can genuinely cope….not in a way that is demanded ….
If you need time of from meetings…take it….if you cannot do field service so be it…witnessing is done in all sorts of manner…every type is good…all forms are pleasing to Jehovah …
Because our yoke is lighter….we can endure longer…life in the truth can be more pleasant…even enjoyable…but it can Be hell to if we are in a bad cong….
Hang in there sis..you are being refined …qualities being built that we are forced to develop…I sure needed that anyway…
We are in a war…..Satan has infiltrated gods house….it sure isn’t easy!!!, …
Biggest hugs to you sis xx

Craig Knight

Anxiety in the WT Org exists because of false teachings like 607 and the fact that the GB expect JW’s to go and preach this stuff to people in the field ministry. The cognitive dissonance this create’s in JW’s is very harmful to one’s peace and joy something that Christian’s should feel. WTS as it stands today is a very toxic environment. Christians will be refined by fire by Christ not by a bunch of Elders who enforce foolish teachings of which there are too many to list here. If you are currently a JW my heart goes out to you because I don’t know how you could go door to door without telling untruth’s to people. How could you encourage people to go to meetings where child molester’s are encouraged to lurk around the kingdom halls. If you question teachings that are false you get disfellowshipped. I sure couldn’t do it. Christ will also gather the wheat at his 2nd coming and I assure you there will be many gathered from all over the world and not just in the WTS. In leaving I left men who act like Popes and super fine Apostles. I left the Org to serve Jehovah without hypocrisy and lies.

Richard Long

Craig, my dear brother, you cannot possibly know the 10th of what she has gone through and I promise if you did, you would realize that for her to walk through those doors requires a Joshua and Caleb sized faith. Whether such faith is misplaced? We can all have our own opinions on that but I’m keeping mine to myself, because I do know a little of what she has survived. If you feel like you need to know, click her name and read the past years comments in her disqus log.

Craig Knight

Richard – Thanks for letting me know. I think a lot of us have gone thru a lot of pain and I certainly don’t wish to discourage anybody. My aims are to encourage people to stay with Jehovah but I also feel an obligation to be honest and to speak against the reasons there is so much pain in the Org. I express my opinions because I want others to understand that men cannot keep God’s spirit from guiding us. I’d rather be boiled in oil than walk thru the Kingdom Hall doors, so I’m with Thinking on that score.

Giuseppe

Hahaha, boiled in oil…….know what you mean.

Giuseppe

AMEN

Thinking

Now you made me cry!..it’s ones like you…Joeseph s raven and others that I so want to sever shoulder to shoulder with…

Sever??? Oh boy. Please tell me this was a typo and not a Freudian slip… hahaha!

Thinking

Serve…SERVE SERVE…hahahahah big typo hey….hahahahah..oh well Jehovah is the father of humour…he loves laughing….hahah

The Raven

LOL!!!!

The Raven

From what I know about this Craig I can certainly understand your point but as long as we believe the basic truths we learned and recognize what His purposes are regarding His people we also understand that many remain close to the congegation and temple as did the Jews of old. Until such time as Christ arrives and all is exposed personally i can understand it. Many steer clear of teaching any prophecy and continue only with the basics. It is true however that as folks learn about the truth they struggle with doing that. I agree with you about the refining. Christ will do that and i think his standards are far, far better than any man’s. Well, that’s mt 2 cents worth. 🙂

Thinking

First off Craig..I understand where you get your anxiety whist in the truth..but with that…at some stage of the game you have to press on to spirual maturity with in yourself and ask yourself if you are serving man or Jehovah…..once you can discern you have been serving an organization,….even blindly without understanding it…in time it sorts you out as to your spiritual stance,,,
You either fold….become mortally wounded ..which I understand….or you become refined with the fire.
We can bleed and cry all we like..but it is our own respmsability to be responsible for our spirituality…it’s no good spitting the dummy and go off from the house that Jehovah actually drew you to…( which I did )

We have had all the warnings of what it is going to be like ..the wolves and then lawless man…we have also had warnings and advice how to tackle that and stand firm against it…..it’s up to each one of us how we use the advice given to us..
Please don’t come at me with the I DONT KNOW HOW YOU CAN GO DOOR TO DOOR….AMD TELL LIES…….it doesn’t work with me Craig…tho when I first learnt the TTATT I did indeed think that myself…

What happened to me when I learnt the truth was shock, dissilusuonment ..pain and a direct attack from Satan ….I did leave for two years……

There is so many hurt with good reason..but it is up to us ..to reason on things…and continually beg Jehovah to,show us why we should stay..or go back…( if we can emotional and mentally do this..so,e cannot as they are so damaged )
He showed me ..In direct ways that were undeniable….simply put …you can go preaching and clearly preach the good news without any lies…and yeah that may ruffle a few feathers but if dome wisely ..it’s very very effective…no one has to tell lies…
The thing is Craig….I never ever did serve and org…it was always Jehovah…and that’s what it boiled down to..and yes…many will fall away..many serve an org….but many many don’t….

You and others have judged so many with in the org so harshly…
I certainly hope myself that there are many he finds acceptable out in the world….I want it to be like that…..but my gut feeling amd scriptures tell me he expects loyalty….and that’s standing up to the man of lawlessness by retaining our faith in Jehovah amongst the corruption….we are showing him who we serve…
I know you won’t agree with anything I say….but I’ll leave you with this scripture…

1Corinthians : Therefore do not judge anything before it’s due time until the Lord comes He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the heart and then each one will receive his prais from God…

Craig Knight

You have made a decision to stay within the Org and that’s just fine if you can do it. I am sorry if I was a little harsh in my words. I have compassion for your suffering. I was a serious JW and brought several families into the WTS. I try to imagine being in the WT and studying with people and coming across 1914 etc. It just seems impossible to teach anyone the Truth when the WT’s entire religion hinges on their erroneous 1914 date. Without that date there is no WTS or Faithful Discreet Slave. I am speaking for myself but I could not and would not preach lies to other people. That’s why I make my stand out here in the wilderness.

Thinking

It’s okay Craig……I stay because Jehovah showed me ….that he wanted me to go back…and I stay to help others if I can….and I’ll be so happy when this is all over…I wish I knew you in the wilderness….as it sure can get lonely and dangerous out there…

Craig Knight

9-21-2017

First off Craig..I understand where you get your anxiety whist in the truth..but with that…at some stage of the game you have to press on to spirual maturity with in yourself and ask yourself if you are serving man or Jehovah…..once you can discern you have been serving an organization,….even blindly without understanding it…in time it sorts you out as to your spiritual stance,

You either fold….become mortally wounded ..which I understand….or you become refined with the fire.

We can bleed and cry all we like..but it is our own responsibility to be responsible for our spirituality…it’s no good spitting the dummy and go off from the house that Jehovah actually drew you to…( which I did )

Reply: Let me say that I think it’s pretty incredible that you have gone back and stood your ground inside the Org. I’m not being flip either. I have to respect your stance because it’s got to be very hard. I actually went over and over in my mind about returning but I just couldn’t see how it could work for me. But I tip my hat to you. Robert always suggests people stay in if they can do it. But by the time I found Robert’s site I had already been out of the Org for almost 30 years. So for me it was different.

We have had all the warnings of what it is going to be like ..the wolves and then lawless man…we have also had warnings and advice how to tackle that and stand firm against it…..it’s up to each one of us how we use the advice given to us..FROM THE SCRIPTURES

Please don’t come at me with the I DONT KNOW HOW YOU CAN GO DOOR TO DOOR….AND TELL LIES…….it doesn’t work with me Craig…tho when I first learnt the TTATT I did indeed think that myself…

Reply: I came at you as you say but that was just my opinion on the matter. This is what we do on a forum we share our opinions. How can I do otherwise? This is how I see being an active JW. My goal would be to bring people to the truth as is the goal of all JW’s. The basics are no problem to teach and I could do that no problem. But there is no way to bring a person to baptism if your Bible study has to know the full scope and believe the full scope of teachings to get baptized. That of course includes 1914 and all the teachings we know are false. Then your Bible student would have to get baptized and accept the Org and all their teachings along with dedicating their life to Christ and Jehovah. So they dedicate their live’s to the GB in so agreeing. 1914 is false and the WT collapses if you take that away. How do you bring your Bible study that far??? You would have to teach them falsehoods to bring them to the truth as WT understands it. That makes no sense at all to me. You would be disingenuous to say you are bringing a person to the truth wouldn’t you?

If there are falsehoods how is that truth. Would Jesus want us to go tell people untruth’s? Did Jesus ever teach truth thru falsity? Of course not! How many people have you brought to baptism because of having to walk around on egg shells being afraid of being disfellowshipped all the time. It just doesn’t seem a possibility. That’s just my haughty uhhh… humble opinion. But I can teach people outside the Org the basics without having to be in fear of teaching falsehoods or worrying about some elder sticking his nose in my life. So I prefer to do God’s work outside of the WTS. On that we can agree to disagree.

What happened to me when I learnt the truth was shock, dissilusuonment ..pain and a direct attack from Satan ….I did leave for two years……

There is so many hurt with good reason..but it is up to us ..to reason on things…and continually beg Jehovah to,show us why we should stay..or go back…( if we can emotional and mentally do this..some cannot as they are so damaged )

He showed me ..In direct ways that were undeniable….simply put …you can go preaching and clearly preach the good news without any lies…and yeah that may ruffle a few feathers but if done wisely ..it’s very very effective…no one has to tell lies…

The thing is Craig….I never ever did serve and org…it was always Jehovah…and that’s what it boiled down to..and yes…many will fall away..many serve an org….but many many don’t….

Reply: That’s great that you serve Jehovah and not men.

You and others have judged so many with in the org so harshly…In fact you yourselves have become self righteous at times…

Reply: My main complaint is not with the JW’s but with the leadership. JW’s are great people but the GB have made their lives so miserable. I am passionate about truth and sometimes I get too intense with my own opinions which I will try to tone down a few decibels from now on. I have stepped on Daisy’s toe’s and Bev’s also which I have apologized for doing. I actually feel bad about it. This is my first forum so I still have lots to learn here.

I certainly hope myself that there are many he finds acceptable out in the world….I want it to be like that…..but my gut feeling amd scriptures tell me he expects loyalty.from those that he took the time and effort to draw to his house…….and that’s standing up to the man of lawlessness by retaining our faith in Jehovah amongst the corruption….we are showing him who we serve…this going thru the fire and being refined ….

Daniel 11:35

and some having insight will be made to stumble IN ORDER TO DO A REFINING WORK ….because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening ..until the time of the end because it is yet for the appointed time..

REPLY: I think you are a little confused about this refining that you keep repeating. Daniel 11:35 is speaking about the attack of the King of the North against the King of the south. Robert has explained this as taking place during the GT. So the refining is yet future so is not taking place in the Kingdom Hall. You maybe going thru a testing of your faith but not a refinement. The final refining comes at Christ’s Return not now. So you need to think about that. Most of the suffering in the Kingdom Hall is due to the heavy yoke that comes from the GB. That is the fire on your feet that you are feeling. It’s not a spiritual paradise! It’s a walk on the hot coals that is caused by the leadership who have lost their way. And my Sister they have a ton of blood guilt to answer for, for all the poor souls who have been cruely disfellowshipped. So the GB is who God will be refining at Christ’s return and they will pay for mis treating Christ’s sheep so carelessly! Of course all those who love God will be refined then too! You might not like my points here but they are based on scripture.

so Craig it’s no good waiting for Jesus return…because this cleansing work will be dome before the appointed time ….well that’s what the scriptures say anyway.

I know you won’t agree with anything I say….but I’ll leave you with this scripture…

1Corinthians : Therefore do not judge anything before it’s due time until the Lord comes He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the heart and then each one will receive his praise from God..

Reply: Yes I agree when Christ returns aka his second coming He will set all matters straight.

Thinking

Okay Craig…but just one point here…I don’t follow Robert…so saying to me….Robert says…doesn’t work with me…..I don’t follow any man or org….

Craig Knight

Ok so why are you still in the WT Organization? If you don’t follow men? You returned to the WT Org because you say you didn’t like being in the world. So you do believe in the Org or you wouldn’t have gone back. I think you are not being honest with yourself.

Thinking

Okay Craig I’m going to be preety blunt here….basically you have no idea or comprehension as to what you are talking about…you have not read my post or understood them…
I did not say I liked being in the world…it was easier…than being active and in the truth..as my cong was hell on earth.
I absolutely beleive Jehovah’s wintessses are his people /house..I also know they have been corrupted and infiltrated by satan.
I do not follow any man or Org…
Now if you cannot understand that..then that’s your problem..not mine.

I’m there because I was directed back….by Jehovah himself

I could say a lot more here but I’m showing restraint…..perhaps you need to take a good look in the mirror Craig and ask yourself if it is you that is not being honest with yourself..
Don’t manipulate my words or intent…the days of letting any one do that to me are over….I’ll stand my ground with you because you are wrong….

The difference between you and me…is I had the guts and back bone to see things how they are….and made a decision to follow my Gods direction….
Being active is no easy path..I picked up my torture stake and decided to carry it…
You are so easily and happily beating a sister….who has done that…where is your manhood….
But there are many as you…ex JWs and current ones…it is to be expected…
The likes of you won’t break me Craig …
End of Story!

Richard Long

And, Craig, please. Please let Thinking’s reply wash over you and lets leave it at that. If you cannot let her have the last word, then please direct your ire at me.

Craig Knight

Why are you so protective of her? She is feisty and seems like she is very capable of speaking for herself. But as you wish:

She accuses me of arrogance but she comes off very arrogant to me. Saying that only JW’s get their faith tested. Thousands of ex witnesses have been tested by that Organization by being kicked out for no good reason. She claims that by being a witness she is not going to lie to people about false teachings. She will somehow be able to teach just the basics to people. I guess once she teaches them the basics she can turn her studies over to other Witnesses to lie for her about the 1914 1919 lie and other false prophecies. The GB has put her in this predicament and she suffers because of those stupid prophets. Just like I’m still out in the world because of those men. If she wants to be in the Org that’s her choice and I wish her well but I think she will just end up frustrated and maybe even disfellowshipped by those fools someday. JW’s think if your not in their Org God has already condemned you. That is a bunch of nonsense. I am not a JW and I feel closer to God than I ever have as many other’s do as well. Anyone who says that will get some harsh remarks from me.

The Raven

It’s an interesting conundrum. I am reminded of what Christ said about where two or more are gathered. Is it the building? I don’t think so since we’re told the Holy Spirit resides in us. My way of thinking about this may sound odd but I think there are still many spirit driven folks who love Jehovah and follow Christ and it may be their presence in that hall which makes it Jehovah’s house. Not the other way around. I read here from others that they have wonderful people they want to associate with and support at their halls. Others have not been so blessed having left some very bad congregations where they could not get a sense of any spirit being present at all. It’s also understandable that they themselves may have been the ones who actually had enough holy spirit to be able to see the situation at hand. But the house itself is nothing. It is what fills it that makes it something. Some find each other there where they first found the truth and choose to remain close to their brothers and sisters until the end. I can appreciate that.
It is this line of thought which seems to me to make the most sense since the physical aspects of the org and it’s trappings are soon to be done away with. We know from learning about the judgments that He metes them out individually.
Haven’t many of them said they do this for the love of Jehovah and others? I don’t rightly know for certain but when dealing with very personal spiritual matters of this sort, hey… who does?
🙂

Craig Knight

I like that Raven – The house is nothing! The Bible say’s that our bodies are the temple of the spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.…

I think about that scripture also – Two or more who discuss God’s word will have the spirit’s guidance. Most of the congregations in Jesus day were just meeting in very small groups in the homes of the Brother’s. I too have heard some JW congregations have a bad spirit where people are just miserable. I understand that some of those who see the ttatt remain to help others and that’s just fine if that work’s for them. I just personally couldn’t make it work. Robert was invited to return to the Org by two elders and He said no thanks! That’s exactly what I would say. I think we all have to decide where to make our stand. In 66 c.e. the Christians fled into the wilderness when the disgusting thing made an appearance. I kind of feel that applies to us who choose to make our stand outside of the temple. I feel like I am waiting for Christ to cleanse his people of all the trappings as you put it. Those Christians who had to flee Jerusalem without their belonging’s didn’t have an easy time of it. Maybe even some were tempted to return to Jerusalem and I’m sure some did which would have cost them their life. Those who obeyed Jesus and stayed away weren’t killed in that horrible event.

The Raven

We have not yet seen this and besides we’re getting ahead of ourselves here in trying to guess. We do know that when this is revealed all will be faced with a choice and I don’t see any proof that being outside the gates right now insulates us from anything. Even those outside who think they are wise, are not, many having given into delusions far worse than the one over the wto. That much has been evident to many of us who see to what extremes some people have gotten off to. I’m watching and waiting and I understand why many still remain and I support them.

Craig Knight

Well said and I concur!

The Raven

Did you watch that video on planned obsolescense? I saw it a while back after i shoved a 3 year old washing machine out the door after the control panel went out and the bearings failed.

Craig Knight

Is this the video you were talking about? Planned obsolescence: Why things don’t last. I just watched it on youtube.
I assume you won the wrestling match with the washer? Ha ha! I bought a new Samsung washer and had to return it because the top door could blow off and take your head with it. Exploding cell phones and laptops are just par for the course in this capitalistic society. I usually try to avoid cheap products and it usually works to fork out more money to get a better product. I have an outdated cell phone a Samsung 3 which I can’t believe still works after I’ve dropped it and cracked the face about 10 times. I never heard that term Planned obsolescence but it sure makes sense that these greedy corporations play these games at our expense. Buncha scumbags!

The Raven

Yep, they’re engineered to fail after a certain amount of time or number of cycles. The sad part of this is the dumps are slam full of things which were made simply to fail so we had to buy more. Even the higher end products don’t last as long. Notice the Russian fridge? The lightbulb which came with it was still working so they never needed the spare! lol!
It’s all about profits.

Craig Knight

This country is so wasteful! When things break we just dump them and then all the internal components get shipped to China where they put the old stuff into the new stuff and make a ton of money off of our waste. Big money is the name of the game. pretty sick ain’t it?

The Raven

I think what gets me the most about this is the photos of little kids scrounging through the mountains of e-waste and burning off the components for the precious metals in them all while inhaling toxic fumes and poisoning themselves. Not to mention their environment. Much of this is dumped in developing nations. China ranks second behind the US. Some companies have started a program in which they take back obsolete stuff, but most haven’t.

Planned obsolescence was Henry Ford’s second contribution to the industrial revolution. lol

Craig Knight

I’ll be smiling when Bill Gates and Zuckerburg and arrogant jerko’s of that ilk are obsolete soon. That’s God’s planned obsolescence. Ha!

The Raven

lol! That has always had me wondering just what sort of energy we will be using . I think about some of the magnetic and gravitational ideas I ran across years ago and how they may apply once evil corporations and secretive governments are gone. No more exploitation or coercion of entire nations to benefit the rich and powerful!

Craig Knight

We will all be wearing fig leaves for awhile and making beeswax candles to see in the dark. But that would be just fine with me. I wonder if we will be like the Israelite’s after they left Egypt and start thinking about the things they left behind. In our case oh, I wish I had a fridge and a washer and dryer and electrical power and a big cozy home. Let’s get there first in one piece and deal with fig leaves later! Ha ha!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE5ZxZFc8AU

The Raven

I got a hunch since all will be revealed we are also going to know what’s been hidden by greedy governments and corporations for a very long time. Many folks agree that we have solutions to the world’s ills but because of power hungry and greedy entities we are made to suffer. We’ll see. It should be a wonderful time and I would love to see what the Patent Office has been hiding.

Craig Knight

I think about the things God has to see when He looks down on mankind. I reflect on that often. He sees every rotten thing that goes on in the world at the same time. No wonder He said He was sorry He made mankind. Gen 6:6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.…

Greed has prevented many things that could helped mankind here’s an example:

$20 billion was sent to Iraq with little or no oversight and without any clear direction on how it should be spent. Most of this money was flown from East Rutherford, N.J., in bricks of $100 bills. Pallets of cash were distributed at will. Today $11.7 billion remains unaccounted for. Much of it made its way into private bank accounts; apparently about $2 billion is hidden in Lebanon. (I can’t help thinking what $20 billion, or even the missing $11.7 billion, would do for homelessness and for schools in America’s most blighted urban areas.)

I can only imagine the corporate world’s dirty secrets…the Bernie Madoff’s of the world. The oil companies and cigarette companies and all the harm they are doing. I’m glad Jehovah is patient but his patience must be running out about now. One thing for sure greedy people won’t be in the kingdom.

The Raven

I am so looking forward to that. No more grinding poverty.

Richard Long

Uh Craig, just in case you didn’t intend it, did you realize this is actual a gay clip?

Craig Knight

Yeah I just thought it was funny! I guess I’ve been in the world too long. Sorry if it offended you.

I saw it and just had a good laugh but it wasn’t appropriate for posting here. Sorry for the groan. I’ll get my act together soon I promise! 🙂

The Raven

Dont be. It was funny!

Richard Long

I hope I am protective of all us here. I hope I am protective of peace and whatever fruitage of the Spirit that may be cultivated amongst us all here. I hope I am a retardant to the works of the flesh here.

We did this whole dance a few weeks ago and now Beverly is as good as gone when such need not be the case for any of us to withdraw in pain, anger or disgust from a place of association and spiritual discourse. If we are quiet and watchful enough, we notice the finest and most insightful among us recoil from the bloodletting and posturing not to return for weeks. Can we in any way imagine this is to the benefit of any of us?

It is the WT way that we cannot allow others the ownership of their words without correction or contradiction. Do we want this place to resemble that environment or possibly something better?

Of course, I know there is no bigger fool here than I, but if you trust me as a brother, may I please ask that to whatever degree Thinking has aggravated you, you pray for her in the same proportion you chastise her? I believe I know her well enough to expect that upon reading this she will do the same for you.

Craig Knight

Richard – I think we are bound to have disagreement’s here from time to time but trying to keep our emotions calm and discuss things is good advise. I will try to season what I say from now on. I have come on too strong and too opinionated as well. I have apologized to Thinking and Bev and Daisy for being too harsh. I hope they will forgive my arrogance. I am a compulsive person and I have suffered with OCD since I was very young. So when I say compulsive I really am and I get myself in trouble by blurting out things before I think. So my apologies to everyone one here if I have been an annoyance. That certainly is not my intention. I will take your words to heart. Thanks for the good advice.

Richard Long

And peace be to us all.

Daisy

Not to belabour the point…I’ve just jumped on after a long day…but I’ve not received an apology. Last words from you were you were not going to speak to me or beverly again as you wouldn’t want to cast your pearls before swine!

All I said to you was that I didn’t like your tone hahaha, no a fiery outburst from me. But not to worry Craig, I’m not bothered, alls well …oink oink 🙂

Craig Knight

I’m very sorry to you and Beverly too! That was a stupid thing to say. I hope Beverly comes back and forgives me as well. My tone was full of anger and that’s just not appropriate. Thanks Daisy for being so kind. Beverly wherever you are I apologize to you too! Please come back to the forum or I shall feel bad the rest of my days!

KB

Very nice apology Craig. Beverly and daisy are very special sisters to us here. They are feisty at times but that’s why I love them so much. Hope you lady’s are doing well.

Daisy

Just noticed your swallowed up post of six days ago. I completely missed it. And thank you, yes, I’m doing well despite packing up home in order to move to the south coast nearer my family &friends in a while.

I like how you say you love Beverly & me because we’re feisty lol. So don’t forget Sis Thinking and Sharon! Another couple of feisty gals! God loves strong women!

I’m sure the meek & mild sisters here would be quite capable of ramming a tent pin into the skull of any enemy of Jehovah if push came to shove. That’s feisty!

Got me thinking about all the females from Sarah on, to those loved by the apostles and what’s troubling is how in the bible women are identified as property, rape laws required fathers to be paid damages and the female victim to marry her rapist, virginity expectations focused almost exclusively on girls, women are valued less in vow redemption, adultery laws subjected women to more scrutiny and punished them more severely than men, owning concubines was common and furthermore, the stories surrounding women like Tamar, Dinah, Hagar, the dismembered concubine of judges 19, Jepthath’s daughter, reveal the profound inequality that characterized day to day life for women living in the ancient Far East.

Still, it’s astounding that, in the midst of such a patriarchal culture, so many women are honoured as teachers, leaders, prophetesses and this speaks volumes about the remarkable resourcefulness, courage and godliness it would take to teach and lead and judge in such times and says a lot about the value Jehovah places on women even when the world does not.

The list of such women is too long and I’m proud to know of all such women of strong calibre. I’ve studied all of them including Rizpah and Junia, the first and only woman in the bible to be defined as an apostle…But my favourite must be Sarah as I can relate to her being a mother. I can imagine how Abrahams ears turned to bacon after she noticed her son’s mocking by her husband’s concubine’s son and though she referred to her husband as ‘lord’ I’m sure she didn’t hold back from letting him have a piece of her mind…in a feisty way lol.

Part of me hopes that a Christian man loves his woman with equality, a mutuality rather than hierarchy, after all, a happy wife is a happy life as the saying goes. So, no wincing brothers please. I’ve actually witnessed such reaction in the k.hall after a very happy Elder stated that from the platform. Best wishes from Daisy

Beverly kenyon

Awwww. That’s so very decent and so very sweet of you to even think you have to apologise to me Craig. We had our differences and that was it! We dealt with it and moved on. You’re a decent person Craig and you absolutely love animals which says a lot about you as a person….kind heart. If I hurt your feelings when we had our differences then I apologise to you. When feelings get hurt, we tend to lash back and no doubt that’s a defense mechanism ( imperfection ), reaction, we humans display. Sorry for hurt feelings Craig and hope we can start over.

Daisy

Come back Old Lady Brady!

Craig Knight

Oh I’m really happy you wrote me . Thanks so much for your kind words and I am so happy to start fresh. I promise to count to one million before I say something stupid. Lots of love!

Giuseppe

The admonition to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes means before judging someone, you must understand his experiences, challenges, thought processes, etc. The full idiom is: Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. … There are many variations on the phrase such as walk a mile in his, her or my shoes.

She has people’s best interest at heart, some just don’t see it.
That’s the bad thing about..texting, emails and comments we just don’t get the jest of the love implied.
Don’t take it personal Craig or anyone else.

Well said Giuseppe. For the most part I believe each one here has the best of intentions. We are on the same team by the way. We have a love for Jehovah and what’s right at heart. We each have our own opinions about how we should act at this most confusing time and if we should attend the meetings or not. Satan has made a mess of the JW organization, let’s not let him do the same thing here. Love to all ❤️✌️

Jamie Mac

Hi Joseph/Giuseppe . That’s a lovely comment. Peace to you as well. It’s about time you had another name change he he

Craig Knight

Giuseppe – You’re right about emails and texting. Sometimes our intent gets misunderstood. Some innocent humor can get misunderstood as a personal attack. I have been a bull in a china closet on this forum. I’ve been holding a lot in my heart over the last 27 years without God in my life and I love having a place to discuss things. I cut myself off from everything and everyone for so long. It’s like I’ve been hiding in a cave all this time. My social skills need a lot of work. I need to cultivate more patience and really try to be more sensitive. I have said things that are outright arrogant. I appreciate your words and will do my best to heed them. Especially walking in others shoes.

Richard Long

Hahahaha. You only THINK you have been arrogant!!! For an example of TRUE arrogance, with a healthy dose of pompousness mixed in and whipped cream and cherry on top….read my Disqus commentary log. Now THATS embarrassing!

Craig Knight

You’re too kind Richard! You warned me but I went on being a rude idiot. But good lesson learned for me. Whipped cream and a cherry on top. That’s funny!!!

Thinking

No you were not a rude idiot……now I’m saying that because it would also make me a rude idiot…..hahahahah.
Hey…ya want to go for a coffe brother….lol…

Truth

Richard Long, you make a fine defense of everything you say. Here are some scriptures that I think would be of interest to you.

Matthew 5:44 But I tell you love your enemies and prat for those who persecute you. NIV.

1 Peter 3:16 Keeping a clear conscious so that these who speak maliciously against your good behaviour in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. NIV.

1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and God reste on you. NIV.

1 Peter 2:15 For it is God’s will that by doing good, you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. NIV.

Christian love, Richard Long.

Giuseppe

No worries brother, I think your wonderful! You remind me of myself, isolated and such.
Were all here to learn and occasionally put our foot in our mouths…..trust me I’m guilty as charged! So keep coming back and enjoy the articles and fellowship!

Craig Knight

Yeah I’m like a wounded old bear living in a cave. You’re a good man Giuseppe. I love this forum so I will be here as long as I can or until Robert gets sick of me and hits the ejector button Goldfinger style! Ha!

Thinking

Let me put the hand of peace out to you brother…and I sinceley apologise if i come over arrogant..as it is a terrible quality to display…I also wish as dear JS has pointed out you could hear my voice….and yes I can get preety fiery and I’m already frustrated….have been for years with the org….Craig you obviously have had heartache…with your sister..I dont know your story but it is something we both share…
I am defensive when I see ones …sowing seeds of doubt or indicating it is not Jehovah’s house…
I won’t go into detail here as I will be accused of playing the sympathy card…but beleive me……I have had my heart ripped out…and I will never recover until the new system
It is enough to say…my old elders have a good portion of my sons blood on their hands…
My son is now decomposing in a dark back cold hole…and it took that before others in the cong came to me and apologised for the appalling manner in which they supported the elders…the elders involved have never apologised…one never acknowledges me…one walks blatantly up to me and arrogantly ( there is that word again ) says Hello thinking how are you….I say in turn….I’m fine thank you and turn away from him…..I do not socialise with them nor wish to…but in principle I have forgiven them…yet consider them bad association……neither have ever acknowledged my sons suicide or anything ..nothing…zilch…it’s as if he never exsisted….

When I went back I went back into that cong…with those elders…until in time the CO removed them from their positions..
I know what it’s like to survive in a incredibly bad cong where Jehovah has removed his spirit…I now know what it’s like to be in a happy cong with his spirit…
Yes..I took my complaint all the way up the ranks to the top in an offical manner in the org…
Yes I’m still there ….my other son and I have survived because we know there is wheat there…and we have always served Jehovah anyway…

I’m just telling you this because we both got emotional..amd each with good cause…
My apologies to you…for any pain…
I’m fiery because no one defended my son….not one ..until he was dead…
I know perfectly well that only those who refuse the mark of the beast will survive..who ever they may be…I have never stated or even thought that only JWs in the org will be the only ones to survive…ever…
I do how ever know they are Jehovahs people/house…and I become fiery and speak up when I see ones encouraging others that it’s not true…as to who will be saved finally….who can know…only Jehovah and Jesus know that..I no longer worry over it..as I have full confidence that he will never let a righteous one die…wherever they are..
So let’s start again brother…and wipe the slate clean as they say…
Richard..you are the most humble of all men..along with brother Dman …it is a most fine quality that I hope to attain to one day..I am far behind you in it.
Gussepi…(eek I cannot even spell it)…. your words and understanding and friendship mean the world to me …

Nigel

There’s no shame in “doubting” a falsehood. Jus’ sayin’… …if we all blindly believed everything told to us without biblical support we’d all still think Jesus returned in 1914… …was it wrong to “doubt” that teaching…??

Craig Knight

I’m happy to my sister! And I am so sorry for your pain as you have had more than your share. We are both passionate about God and his kingdom so that’s a good thing. Now that I know you better and your situation I humbly apologize to you for my harshness. I support you in your stance to try to serve your God with open eyes. Pray to Jehovah and ask him to help you carry your load like I pray every morning when I open my eye’s to face each day. Psalms 55:22 Cast your burden on Yahweh, and he will sustain you. He will never allow the righteous to be moved.

Warmest Love

Thinking

Thank you brother….we are all works in progress and the walking wounded …much love to you ….

Craig Knight

Walking wounded is a great way to put it. I value your friendship and I’m so sorry for letting my emotion’s carry me away into rudeness. My people skills really need work. I practiced Buddhism for a long time and had my head buried in the ground like an ostrich and all the time being away from the Org I literally became a hermit. So I really need to pause and think before I say things. I think I’m going to need 2 thousand years to reach perfection. 🙂 May Jehovah bless all you do!

Thinking

Well I’m like you….I’m far too impulsive and we are both feisty…hahaha..but you know what Brother…if we knew each other personally and could talk to each other face to face….this would never have happened…we would have read each other’s expressions and tones of voice….emails are terrible like that…
I need to work on it too brother,,so please you just tell thinking any time if I write to strong…..
I’m so happy we have gotten to know each other better….biggest and mighty hug to you…and hey…I’ll still save a seat at the cong for you…hahahahah I couldn’t help myself…I’m a big prankster and joker beleive it or not…I actually got chatted by an elder for taking my pranks to far….unbeknown to you…you are humble too…..
I so want you to be okay…..xx

Craig Knight

I was thinking the exact same thing about speaking face to face. You nailed it when you talked about not seeing the facial expressions and body language. I’m sure if we met and exchanged stories we would have hugged each other. You know humor is a real blessing and helps us heal. I get silly when I should be serious and I annoy the heck out of people sometimes. I would go to a meeting with you if I could. I really wouldn’t have a problem with it. JW’s are great people. I went to a few meetings with my Mom just to try to cheer her up and every time a brother or sister tried to say hello to me my Mom would say “Oh, you can’t talk to him He’s disfellowshipped!” That was tons of fun. Ha ha! That’s funny the elder got in your face. I’m just fine my sister thanks for your concern that’s very sweet of you. I’ve got pretty thick skin like most of us here because we have all been thru so much. You tell me too if I get to showing my fangs. Isn’t it funny how when we bump heads sometimes it makes us feel closer after we talk things out?

Thinking

Yes it is ..butting heads sometimes does really work.( not that I’m advocating it ) …hahah…but you know what…we both tried to apply the fruitages of the spirit….and hey it really works….well I hope we do get to a meeting together one day,,,that would be surreal I think. …so now I’ve got to save a seat for you..Guessepi and raven. Hahahah

Craig Knight

Love never fails does it? I think Raven and G would cause a scene! Ha ha!

Daisy

Good advice there, as replying would be tantamount to beating the air insofar as concerning oneself with another, who believes that a publishing business is God’s earthly organisation and house of God and who cannot see that when WT goes beyond the things that are written,and that teaching finds no support in the scriptures and are interpreted to include whatever they want it to mean 1 Cor 4:6; Gal 1:8 it’s time to exist…not that I’m quoting Ray Franz’s book or anything so sinful?

Huldah

I have to add this in here somewhere. The modern MOL are similar in nature to the Pharisees. An ancient Jew would not be properly worshipping Jehovah if he did not go to the temple to make sacrifices and attend festivals, even though the Pharisees were vile abusers. Jesus’ own family did this. Hannah went despite the severe distress it caused her and Eli’s abuse, even leaving her only son in Eli’s hands, despite his accusatory disposition. One must wonder if she knew about the immorality of Eli’s sons.

That being said, I do believe some true sheep are scattered due to the abuses of the leadership and may be outside the organization for this reason. I personally sense that Jehovah is dealing with these ones individually, but we have to maintain the humility necessary to respond to his leadings.

I do believe that true wheat are aware of the fundamental truth as taught by JWs because I believe Jeh seeks to enlighten right-hearted ones wherever they are.

There are many lowly ones who will likely have no opportunity to make an informed choice. I don’t believe Jehovah is dogmatically going to judge these lowly ones. i don’t think many in privileged lands qualify to make the claim that they never had an opportunity to take God seriously and prioritize his worship over the abundant distractions available to us.

The Raven

What about all those who were never permitted baptism because of the errors? Or those who were disfellowshipped wrongly or driven out by immoral or corrupt leaders? I tend to view this a little differently. I think that refining does not come until Christ arrives to do it. But we can find similarities between the treatment the Jews received at the hands of their leaders and witnesses today. But since the entire organization is blind and deaf, how much of a refining are we talking about here, if at all? The burdens suffered by many now are not going to compare to what’s coming when Christ returns and the devil becomes enraged.. Sure, it can help those who are aware of the true situation about the deluding influence and the MOL to see this for what it is, but it does not insure anyone’s survival any more than the Law did. That whole scenario changes when He arrives and personally inspects, separates and either saves or destroys the wheat and weeds.
I commend you for sticking it out at the hall and watching and waiting. It has got to be tough doing this but still recognize this as a group of people who stand for Jehovah’s great name awaiting the return of the King, the Christ, as I do.

Thinking

Raven I’m terribly sorry if I have hurt you or seem to come over hard…beleive me I’m not a hard person…the opposite in fact…so my apologies to you….but who said we have only errors….who said the entire organization is blind….and if it is….it just means he will fulfill

1 Peter 4:17 For it is the appointed time for the judgement to start with the house of God…NWT
I Peter 4:17 For the Tim sis come that judgement to MUST BEGIN at the house of God and if it first begin with at is what shall the end be of them that do not obey the Gospel.KJV

Okay so there we have that he undeniably has a house at judgement day……so,why on earth leave it raven….yes we will get some strokes…but they will be few ( hopefully I won’t be in line for receiving the many strokes )
As to those dealt with treachously ..those put out of his house in a disgusting wrongful manner ..he knows who they are…they are his sheep…and he will gather them back…actually many are coming back even at this time….I see it myself in my own cong…and I am one of them…nothing is impossible with Jehovah…but for those who cannot…and for very good reasons…he knows them..he has not abandoned them..

As to not going to his house because of the corruption….show me a church that hasn’t got it….and besides..that’s not good enough excuse…because we were warned how bad it would be…
It’s extra hard now. …because it truly does seem…..it is all coming out..the man of lawlessness is being revealed…so do we flee….or stand firm….
Blow that Raven….they are not getting me…hopefully I’ll stand firm till the end ….
But I hear you…I understand…you are not talking with some one that has had not had the best reason in the world to walk……but he drew me to his house for a reason…and he drew me knowing full well it consisted of the man of lawlessness…and he drew me back!
Personally when he showed me why it is like it is…it made me stronger…the missing puzzle fortifies me…at times I don’t understand how ones who know TTATT ..leave…but each to his own I guess…

Sis thinking ?

The Raven

Uh…I was never a part of it. They basically tossed me away when I had some disagreements over well, the entire book of Revelation. It was a no go for them. I had no idea how these things worked anyway. But that didn’t matter to me and still doesn’t. I can understand some people’s hurt and others who hammer away at folks to attend no matter what giving their own experiences as proof that it can be done. But not all these people are the same are they? I don’t think so. Geez, look at this place! lol!
But I’m not hurt at all. And I have been associated with witnesses for decades. I still speak with some and they stop by to see me when they don’t have too much “supervision”, lol!
To me, it’s a building. It’s an organization which left me. Jehovah didn’t. I found people from there who did speak to me and study with me, so I am with you. I have been at this many years and will continue to do so.
I don’t make excuses, I just see this differently than some do.

Thinking

Well I wouldnt have tossed you away….no way!!!!…I hated the Revelation Climax study book….we did it three times…I missed heaps of those meetings…and the third time I didn’t attend any…I couldn’t work out how they knew these things…unless it got beamed down to them…and I knew that didn’t happen…
Brothers and sisters are slowly waking up Raven…I don’t think they will be totally awake…but who knows what that is anyway….many can see things they couldn’t years ago…some die hard Witnesses have softened considerably…others not…
Not every one can go back because of the damage to them Raven…I know that..but some can..and I will always encourage them to.

I preety well stand firm with ones who try to pull ones away from Gods house…corrupted or not….but you probably seen that…lol….
Aaaah Raven….I hope we meet up…after the dust has settled…

As for ones on here…many fine beautiful ones who have been hurt and confused……but also ones who are underhanded ..And use this place as a platform to convince ones staying in Jehovah’s house is not necessary..or to encourage them to leave all together …

But I’ve said enough..lol…I have enjoyed our conversation Raven…it’s times like this my frustration with Gods house is at its Max……I just get so angry ….at the confusion and hurt ….but it is as it was fortold…and because it is like it is……it just shows he considers it his house…( hope that made sense )
I’ll stop hammering now ..lol..?

Richard Long

Did you catch DA’s quip a while back renaming it the “antiClimax” book? Even got a whoop out of Nigel!

Thinking

I can see the errors..but I don’t gloat or make fun of them….I’m to scared to do that. …it’s still his house …..and from patterns of the past ..when people make fun of the fall of his house….Jehovah really rips into them for that…..

The Raven

Don’t stop, I agree with much of what you say and yes, there are some very underhanded folks who attack those who remain. That’s why I like how Robert deals with this issue. I don’t think Craig meant what he said in a personal way, I think much of it was a generalization considering the awful things which have happened to him and the org as well.

It wasn’t the revelation climax book. It was the Revelation book itself from the bible. That’s what I started and ended with. LOL!

It does make sense and I believe the witnesses stand to be in the position to be called His people and His house and marked as a target. But I also understand that some of us out here at the gates are not forgotten. Who was it here that talked about the business of a town being done at the gates? Well…I’m waiting. 🙂

Thinking

Well you know Raven..some people like me…NEED ones like you! Craig And Joeseph S…we NEED your support…have you ever thought of that…..I’d love to have you in my cong ….but I get where you are coming from…as I do Craig…and I’m still saving that seat for Joesph S….hahah.( I cannot spell his G name )

The Raven

Hahaha! I guess you’ll have to settle for this motley crew of an ecclesia with me and several other fine folks here for now. lol.
I knew when I first learned the truth it was what I needed. That hasn’t changed.
The rest is all something beyond me but I do what I can. Keep at it Thinking. Looking into these matters has been for me a very personal island of peace in my life after losing so many people close to me. Pain is put on hold for me as we wait for the kingdom. I’ve been numb and angry at the same time but have a better understanding of just how much is at stake and pray to God I can make it to the other side of this.

Thinking

I know another very dear brother I am very Fond of on another forum who has made himself an island….you actually sound a lot like him….you words were very moving my brother…….
??

The Raven

You’re a good soul, Thinking and I’m glad to know ya! In spite of all the mess going on with the society and the attacks from within and without, it takes a strong strong person to hang tough and continue to serve Jehovah.
I know we don’t agree on every detail but we are united in our faith and understanding that Jehovah will settle all accounts when Christ returns.
In that you have my support as do all those who hold fast to His words and remain active at the halls. May He watch over you and others as you preach the truths we have come to know through the WTO ( flawed as it is right now) and give you insight and hold your heart for when the hour of darkness approaches.
I think you are probably familiar with a certain level of shadow as am I. Islands sometimes choose to be that way because it’s safer for others when the devil seems to dog your every step by destroying those around you. And he has. I cannot cede anything if I want to see my loved ones ever again. I understand. Christ promised us we would and taught us how to pray about it. It’s that simple for me. Jehovah will not abandon us as long as we stick close to Him and recognize our king when he arrives, wherever we happen to be. There’s my peace, Thinking. 🙂

Thinking

Thank you brother …that was a kind and thoughtful post ….many of us holding on are damned if we do and damned if we don’t…an island looks preety good to me at times too….I was just forced off mine…lol….may you have that peace brother..and I hope one day to talk with you when the dust settles…
Also if we dont agree on everything. It’s probably because I just don t know…so many things are hard to decipher…but I’m sure as you are …if we hold tight to Jehovah and Have each other’s back and stand side to side and serve shoulder to shoulder ..we will be pleasing to our God…we can but do our best hey Raven.:) 🙂

Much love to you Raven

Burt Reynolds

Motley crew! Band of brothers. Select sisters…..but I suppose we have been called a den of vipers as well!

Burt Reynolds

That makes sense!

Nigel

Hello Sister Thinking.

For the most part I agree with your comments – and I applaud your decision to obey Jah’s personal direction to you that you should return to the JWs. I believe that with your example, knowledge & encouragement you would be a blessing to any congregation you assemble with.

I also agree with your sentiment that we all must attend Christian meetings. (An internet forum is no real replacement for actually meeting together, especially as there are no elders, no organised meetings, no public readings of the scriptures, no communion (memorial service), etc. available on a website.) Just because we don’t agree with everything that is taught at a meeting is no good excuse to disobey God’s clear command at Heb 10:25. (Additionally, part of our walk includes eagerly searching for the truth, loving the truth and checking everything!)

The one thing I can’t agree with you, however, is your insistence that the “House of God” means “the worldwide congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses”. There is simply no scriptural proof to validate that claim and any scriptural proof that might be offered will most certainly apply to other Christian groups also.

For instance, you quoted 1 Peter 4:17:

“For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?”

Isn’t it obvious, from this passage, that “the House of God” comprises those who ARE “obedient to the good news of God”?

Suffice to say, there are many non-JW Christians who most certainly are “obedient to the good news of God”.

Also, notice:

“I am writing you these things, though I am hoping to come to you shortly, but in case I am delayed, so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household (Gk. “oikos” = household or house), which is the congregation (Gk. “ekklesia”) of the living God, a pillar and support of the truth.” 1 Tim 3:14,15

“Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will, and Sosthenes our brother, to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours” 1 Cor 1:1,2

The “congregation of God” – which is “God’s house” – comprises those who “have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”.

You know very well that many non-JW Christians also “call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”, therefore they, also, are part of “God’s house”, and especially so if they have the Holy Spirit.

Of course, the Holy Spirit is like “the wind” (John 3:8): it blows wherever it wills, regardless of human opinion, will & desires.

I really liked what Brother King wrote concerning that point:

“Obviously men cannot control the spirit. Jesus likened the holy spirit to the wind, in that, the wind blows wherever it will blow and men do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is, God chooses whomever he wishes and there is nothing the Watchtower can do about it.”

I pray that you don’t take my reply as an attack on you, dear sister. I cannot judge people’s hearts but I am convinced that you are a faithful Christian doing your best to please our Father & our Lord.

I only wanted to make the point above as I believe there are many who visit e-watchman who find themselves in a difficult situation: feeling guilty that they can’t, in good conscience, attend any JWs meetings because they don’t agree with everything that is taught, but also feeling like they can’t go to any other Christian meetings because they (mistakenly) believe that “only the WTS/JWs are God’s house”.

(Personally, I believe that unless one has a good replacement, one should remain going to JW meetings.)

The fact is, there are many good Christian individuals/groups out there that are not JWs but who are doing their best to please Jah and are accepted for their faith, even if their knowledge, like all of us (including the WTS/JWs), is not “complete” (1 Cor 13:10).

Compare:

“For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.” 2 Cor 8:12

Indeed, you, yourself, tacitly admitted that there are other churches akin to the JWs:

“As to not going to his house because of the corruption….show me a church that hasn’t got it….”

All the very best, sister.

🙂

Beverly kenyon

That’s beautifully explained Nigel. Love it. And you’re right, there are many individuals/groups out there doing their best to please the Heavenly Father even if they don’t know everything as aren’t we all a work in progress if we’re sincere in our Faith and scripture hints at that very thing when you mention about those in Sardis that did not defile their outer garments. Rev3:4.

I’ve been meaning to email you Nigel about your brilliant post on the forum last week I think it was so please forgive me if I came across as ignorant but I’m so time deficient and I wanted quality time to mail you. Hopefully, I’ll get round to it this weekend.

Much Christian love to you Nigel, as usual.

Nigel

Back atcha Sister Beverly.

And: no stress about being time deficient; I know how that feels!!!

We’ll chat soon enough, doubtlessly…

🙂

Burt Reynolds

Keep going Nigel. We all need some inner strength.

Thinking

Hi Nigel,
Thank you for your kind email….but I think we will just have to disagree to disagree on this….
I know Jehovah will have to read hearts in the final judgement….thank goodness…
Also the scriptures say those that get saved.will be
1) those who call on Jehovahs name…( not Jesus)
2) those who do not have the mark of the beast.
3) those who have been given the Mark from the man in linen and the ink horn
4) those who are baptized.

I actually don’t get worried about this anymore as I Know Jehovah will save thru his Son all those he finds righteous…not one of them will be found missing

I’ve been around a long time…I’m no bible scholar..
Nor no fool…I can see what’s going on here …a subtle but consistent guidance by some to turn ones away from Gods house…
Smooth kind words don’t seduce me…..and I call a spade a spade…and I will be corrected and apologize when needed…

But there is a movement going on this comments section…and some just plainly not being honest about it…

Jehovah does have a house Nigel….it will be judged..and I’m sure more than Jehovah’s witnesses will be saved because of their heart felt condition..but each and everyone will be required to get out of BTG and give Jesus his well deserved and rightful place as Mighty God ..Prince of Peace etc…..and give up their tinitarian beleifs…..which is in fact a huge insult to Jesus and what he has done for us…

Yet he will also deal with those who have tried to pull ones away from Gods house and weaken the faith of the hurt and battered sheep..sowing seeds of doubts with smooth words

Henceforth I will not be lured into commenting with those that I see trying to do that…as I feel they know better..and it just gets to be a maddening merry go round of useless fruitless words and arguments..
I have been accused by Truth as trying to gather a following….untrue and a lie…..I WILL ALWAYS stand up for my brothers and sisters….

I can see tho Nigel you are gathering an acceptance of your belief …which I do beleive you truly beleive…and I respect your right to..if others want to support you and think it’s okay..
It’s up to them…..but not me

With the greatest respect and Christian thoughts
Sis thinking

Nigel

Hello Sister Thinking.

You know, looking at your comments and comparing them to mine, it’s apparent that we largely agree with one another! There is actually very little disagreement!

You wrote:

“I’m sure more than Jehovah’s witnesses will be saved because of their heart felt condition..but each and everyone will be required to get out of BTG and give Jesus his well deserved and rightful place as Mighty God ..Prince of Peace etc…..and give up their tinitarian beleifs…..which is in fact a huge insult to Jesus and what he has done for us…”

I COMPLETELY agree with you!!

I do not appreciate, however, your insinuation that I am trying to draw people away from God’s house by smooth words.

(If that accusation was not directed at me then say so.)

For the record: I am NOT trying to draw people away from God’s house!! I direct people TO God’s house!!

Indeed, whilst I believe that the JWs are (merely) a PART of God’s House, I have said on numerous occasions that I believe Christians should remain in the Kingdom Hall if they feel they can’t find any other good place to go. And I stand by that.

And if you want to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of others about me & my intentions by suggesting that my kind words to you are actually “smooth words” (lying, deceitful) then I ask Jehovah to judge between you and me. He knows my heart and my intentions; you clearly do not.

Let me also state – for the record – to all who read this:

I declare that Jesus Christ is Lord of all, to the glory of the Father, Jehovah God – and that at the name of Jesus every knee should – and will – bend in honour. He is Jehovah’s annointed Messiah and earth’s rightful ruler.

Furthermore, Jesus Christ is my personal saviour & lord, and Jehovah God is my God and sovereign over all. The Head of every man is the Christ and the head of Christ is Jehovah.

Finally, I know for a certainty that the Lord Jesus Christ came to earth in the flesh and died as a propitiary sacrifice for our sins, opening the way for all who believe to gain eternal life & communion with the Father.

Now, as for your “conditions” on what one must do in order to be saved, whilst I agree with 75% of what you wrote, you are not altogether correct on your first point.

Whilst calling on the name of Jehovah will save someone, so will calling on the name of Jesus:

“He brought them outside and said: “Sirs, what must I do to get saved?” They said: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will get saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30,31

“For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9

In fact, I could go on for days because:

“For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become “yes” by means of [the Son of God, Jesus Christ].” 2 Cor 1:20a

Furthermore, understand that Jesus HAS Jehovah’s name:

“I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.” John 17:11,12

So to call on Jesus IS to call on Jehovah. (That’s possibly why the NT always replaces “Jehovah” with “Lord” in all OT quotations. Compare: Luke 2:11, John 13:13, Phil 2:11, 1 Pet 3:15, Col 1:15-20.) And that’s what Jehovah wants.

“For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” John 5:22,23

“Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. But whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” 1 John 2:23

Frankly, it’s not surprising to see that some who participate in the conversations here are “children” of the “evil slave” in that they love to “beat their fellow slaves” (Matt 24:50). “Like father like son”.

“In answer they said to him: “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You are doing the works of your father [Satan].” They said to him: “We were not born from immorality; we have one Father, God.” John 8:39-41

This, too, applies to those of you Pharisee-like ones who love to denigrate and belittle your Christian brethren in other denominations:

“Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like everyone else—extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give the tenth of all things I acquire.’ But the tax collector, standing at a distance, was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward but kept beating his chest, saying, ‘O God, be gracious to me, a sinner.’ I tell you, this man went down to his home and was proved more righteous than that Pharisee. Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” Luke 18:10-14

Note:

“Welcome the man having weaknesses in his faith, but do not pass judgment on differing opinions. One man has faith to eat everything, but the man who is weak eats only vegetables. Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.” Rom 14:1-4

Also, it’s quite apparent that you who love to say “The temple of Jehovah! The temple of Jehovah!” (i.e. “We are the only true Christians because we use the name of Jehovah and we evangelise”) have forgotten:

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast.” Eph 2:8,9 NIV

Frankly, there is only one scripture one that proves most JW congregations are “pitiable & naked”:

“By this all will know that you are my disciples – if you have love among yourselves.” John 13:35

All of us here know how unloving most JW congregations are, so that is enough to prove the point. And whilst I don’t expect (m)any others here to have gone to non-JW Christian assemblies I can assure you that there ARE non-JW Christian assemblies that DO have “love amongst themselves”. One’s ignorance of that fact does not alter that fact.

I’m just going to state this plainly – despite running the risk of having this comment removed or having it require “approval” from the site administrator – you are deluded if you think that only current JWs have a chance to survive into the new system of things. It’s as simple as that. Hopefully your delusion will not lead you to a course of action that will bar you from the Kingdom:

“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat; and I was thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger, but you did not receive me hospitably; naked, but you did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but you did not look after me.’ Then they too will answer with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.” Matt 25:41-46

To Jesus & Jehovah be all glory, honour, praise & worship.

Nigel

Well, I wrote I reply and – surprise surprise – it was removed….

If it was Disqus: you suck.

If it was Satan: you suck too – and let me remind you: the glorious light of the gospel cannot be stopped. The Lake of Fire is prepared for you and you will be thrown into it soon.

If it was Brother Robert King: kindly show me what was wrong in what I wrote; the majority of my comment was scripture.

Daisy

POW Nigel!
You’re definitely not tidying the deckchairs on the Titanic brother!

Beverly kenyon

You were fortunate replying to Nigel, Daisy, as I wanted to tell him how wonderful his post is and backed up scripturally.

I wish I was half the Christian that humble and meek man is. Nigel is filled with God’s Holy Spirit as evidenced by his words and how he lives his life. I will be reading his wonderful post again and try to take something from his words and later I will ask him to pray for me and DA. We need all the help we can get from the prayers of a righteous person to the Heavenly Father, through his Son, our King.

Daisy

Don’t want to sound icky or anything, but I hold everyone here, there and everywhere in my prayers almost constantly as I’m NOW a firm believer that they actually work, yes sir!
When I pray these days I experience such a euphoric calmness that goes right through me, it’s hard to describe, but all I can say is that the feeling is very ‘more-ish’ in that prayer seems to be within my mind more than all the hardships in my life. its like I’ve taken a spirit pill lol!
My suspicions as to whether it was the spirit I yearned …I was cautious…have disappeared, as I now evidence a sharp turn around for the better direction my life has finally taken.
Remember how Robert asked all here to pray for me about a year ago…and I’m still here lol! Feeling better in mind body and spirit than ever before in my entire life. That’s the truth.
Without sounding condescending or such, I’m ask that prayers to be said by ALL here …particularly on behalf of sis Thinking and Sally who are experiencing the pain that we can all relate to so easily. You with your murdered brother Beverly, me with my stuff. And prayer is so much more powerful when more than one are involved , as you know.
Btw, two beautiful clean young gorgeous Jws just knocked leaving a tract. After I closed the door I wept , but for them they seemed so happy giving hours every week ‘serving’. I wept because their personal walk with God through Christ is virtually non-existent and if you read the context of Romans 14:17 surrounding scriptures Paul is saying the kingdom of God is…righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. All four missing in the k.h’s in my opinion and I’d have to be a masochist to go back there.
That’s a scripture I’ve never come across before , and but for the stimulation to search the scriptures for myself since spirit directed me here, I’d never have opened my bible ever again. Nor prayed ever again …so much for Jws.org being the truth.

Beverly kenyon

Yeah, Daisy, everyone has a horror story to tell as no one is left unscathed living in Satan’s World. My brother was murdered by a coward on a cold Sunday morning in the Ardoyne in Belfast and his murderer being a catholic should’ve been attending his church but instead he was doing the work of the Devil and my Brother was riddled with bullets for being peace keeper keeping the two warring factions apart from killing each back then and all over religion. But my family have healed over time from what happened but we haven’t forgot. Then there was my JW friend Paul, who hung himself one day, his body hanging there for two weeks having being shunned by ones from his congregation who should’ve loved and cared for him when he was at his lowest point all because he hit the bottle, drink to cope with his marriage breaking up. Hope to see these two the most loving decent young men again.

And you’re right you would have to be a mascochist to continually run straight back into the ‘furnace’ oops, sorry, fire, for more as its called, ‘refinement’. The Refiner Jesus Christ is coming back to refine us all by fire and I’ll take that refinement over refinement by men any day as I know my Lord and Redeemer as my best interest at heart and he Loves me and wouldn’t emotionally abuse or guilt trip me.

Beverly kenyon

Hey Daisy, just a PS to add that if it wasn’t for witnesses like the two who knocked on your door today, I wouldn’t, I don’t think I would’ve known about the resurrection if it wasn’t for them showing me that promise of God in the Bible and it was because of my brother’s murder and my other thoughts I spoke to the two witnesses who knocked on my door. So yeah, they do tell some of important Bible truths it’s just a pity it’s a cold soulless organisation run by the Devil himself but all Christian organisations are trying to work with their minas. Luke19:11-27. Matthew25:14-30.

Burt Reynolds

That’s really heartwarming to read your comment Daisy. I still struggle in some areas and I don’t know if I will ever experience the feelings you have just described. Sometimes I feel as though the plug has been pulled in my emotions and they have just drained away completely. I’ll keep going though even if I stand at the end as a stone shell. I’m going back into my woodshed for some sanding therapy! X

Arvid Fløysand

I totally agee with you Daisy…this post from Nigel that you replyed to is a very good one…i tryed to make a reply directly to Nigel but it was not possible for some reason.
He is a good brother…Christlike…brotherly affection to all my dear brothers and sisters who have love amoung themselves…i am longing to see you all one beautyful day in near future

Daisy

Maybe that Devil disqus is against him for some reason.
Disqus doesn’t ‘do’ Christ!
Now that’s a thought ho ho…

Burt Reynolds

Do who we actually know if the deck chairs were tidied on the Titanic? There was nothing in the job description of merchant men employed on the Titanic to suggest that deck chair tidying was within their remit. The deck chair tidyers association annual 1911, showed that only qualified deck chairists could tidy and the Titanic passenger list has no such person on it. I think this is part of a conspiracy theory. Anyway, it is not the Titanic at the bottom of the pond but the Olympic so you should really be complimenting Nigel on tidying them, not, not tidying them!

Daisy

Haha Burt…my point about Nigel not tidying the deck chairs on the Titanic was that when/if he ever meets death head-on, his personal relationship with Jehovah through Christ will sustain him through and through because his relationship is built on solid scriptural knowledge of the Bible’s message.
He’s not faffed about tidying the deck chairs of man made rules & regulations but got on with building a firm connection to his Maker.
If you get my meaning lol 🙂

Burt Reynolds

Yes of course Daisy. It just me and my warped sense of humour. Take no notice.

Sorry Beverly …I accidentally posted to you when it was meant to post to Nigel…

Beverly kenyon

Why are you sorry when you were clearly speaking about ones like me trying to seduce ones away. Mega Lol and Mega ppfft! What a Freudian slip posting Nigel’s post to me. Now what word rhymes with pony and starts with p…..ummmm.

Thinking

Well I was quiet sure Nigel would read my post Beverly…and off course I knew you would also read it…it’s there for all to see Beverly…no major slip at all…I just wanted to explain why it was directed to you when it was directed to Nigel….it’s up for all to see Beverley…very public…nothing homey about it..
…I’m upfront ….I’m sorry for this nastiness and how easy some one can enter this comments section and cause such calamity and divisions….
I have had a few say they don’t find this comments very encouraging any more..a sort of anti witness movement……I have absolutely no hard feelings for you Beverly…off course I wish you well as I do Nigel …
Sis thinking

Beverly kenyon

Sis Thinking, read the comments over the years and aren’t most of them ‘anti witness’ comments and those very comment would seem like an ant witness movement so the few as you say, don’t find the comments very encouraging should really think about what they’re saying as they’re clearly not thinking through what they’re saying!

You and your followers should not judge me and I won’t judge them too. But then again I’m not arsed about what what you or anyone think as so long as I’ve not done anything wrong,

I wish you well too.

Nigel

Dear Sister Thinking,

I want to apologize if my recent comments to you have you upset you in any way.

Irregardless of spiritual merit, the comments were, in all likelihood, unnecessary. Nor is it the place for such comments (it’s Brother King’s site, not mine) and the comments probably weren’t edifying either.

I apologize if I’ve upset you and ask for your forgiveness.

I would have written this to you personally but that was not possible.

Sincerely,

Nigel

sally

Hi Nigel so are you say faiths that believe in trinity, our souls going to heaven,

Richard Long

Sally, Nigel is saying that “Christian individuals/groups out there that are not JWs but who are doing their best to please Jah and are accepted for their faith” are Gods people not BECAUSE, but EVEN THOUGH they have faith in those beliefs, screwy as they may be.

They are sincere seekers of God’s righteousness who only differ from other sincere seekers of God’s righteousness by the identity of WHICH man of lawlessness is misleading them. As are we, with our own screwy beliefs. In the adversary’s attempt to corrupt the Holy Ones, one lie is as good as another. However, the identifier “Christian” has a definition. I will leave it to you to decide for yourself whether the modifiers men of lawlessness have attached to that identifier ought be there or not.

The “pure worship” will not exist until the restoration, which, as Robert points out, cannot occur before the parousia. The only basis we JW’s ever had for the arrogance to think we JW’s are currently the exclusive “house of God” has always been the “screwy” belief the parousia had commenced, which we all here now know to be a lie.

Daisy

Last paragraph Richard….”The pure worship will not exist until the restoration , which, as Robert points out, cannot occur before the parousia”. Ah…knew I’d got my scriptural education from somewhere! Surprise! Must have come from Robert bless…

As for the holy ones…If we’re around at the time, we’ll be in for a big surprise as to who THEY turn out to be…as my feeling is…that they will be ones who’ve NOT built their faith on the wood, hay and stubble of imperfect men’s gobbledegook, (cobbled together out of context scriptures, to bolster their own interpretations, bigotry, cons and lies)and who have responsibly peered into the scriptures of sixty six books making up the one book as a whole and really got a true understanding of the bigger picture.
That bigger picture is totally about Christ, from beginning to end, from Melkizedek to His writing the book of revelation …and not about Jehovah’s “Christian” witnesses (the “Christian” adopted with gritted teeth by the org when under a critical magnifier). JCW lasted all of about five minutes, that’s how much Jws are interested in mankind’s saviour!

Richard Long

Don’t pick on me D! :p I’m citing Robert as the authority because ON THIS SITE, he IS the authority. Happy to be the springboard for whatever truth you choose to share, though! 🙂

black curtain

Good call Daisy. Every time I see the claim the WT aka JW is God’s house I wince. Every other christian group claims that all the scriptures point to themselves. There is not one shred of evidence that anyone of them can claim exclusivity.
When Christ comes to do the judging of all who are alive, at that time, it will be on an individual basis only, and you can whip out whatever membership card you like, but it wont increase your saveability.

What some seem to forget is the operative word is “claim.” For example someone may come along and claim they have six university degrees, therefore they should be listened to. But if you can’t verify that claim treat it with a degree of salt. For example the WT has pointed out, at one time, how their numbers were increasing, which was proof of God’s blessing. Now their numbers are declining in many places hence property liquidation and rationalisation. Does the decline indicate no blessing by God? Again, no proof, but claims will be made.

It reminds me of:- (James 1:22-27) 22 However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. 25 But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it]. 26 If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man’s form of worship is futile. 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

“A man looking at his natural face in a mirror… and immediately forgets what sort of man he is.” If I can add that man only sees himself in the mirror not an organisation. If people want to belong, no issue. Discussing the merits of that has been done a number of times on this site. It is a distraction.

I see it as you do Daisy, it is not membership of an organisation, but what sort of man/woman are we?
regards bc

Burt Reynolds

Surely the reason for attendance of those you refer to, is not a claim on Jehovahs house, and thus a claim of righteousness and qualification for mercy? Has that ever been the case? When I was attending, I never thought once that my attendance was a prerequisite to my salvation, but how I carried on in my life.

Likewise here, neither Thinking or Sally, neither Robert or anyone else, suggested that simply the act of going was to do with salvation or in anyway aided that. Neither, in essence, though many I know did in their simplistic outlook when I attended, is the claim made that ‘membership’ has any value. In all cases people are or should be aware that it is the dedication of the heart that makes one no more than a consideration for Jehovahs mercy, and not simply going to a building or even associating with members.

The reason stated here that does bear weight in my opinion, is that the watchtower has a part to play in bible prophesy in that it claims to carry the name of Jehovah with understanding to what that means, claims to be his representative, claims to have preached the word according to scripture and claims it is led by Jehovahs spirit. When one compares this with the temple of Jehovah and that Jesus attended and preached from when he was on earth, and stated that it was the house of Jehovah, it bore no greater credentials that that which the watchtower does today to do so. And yet, Jesus treated it as such. Therefore, then as now, there is a significance in man laying claim on Jehovah’s name and as such, invites judgement as to that claim.

The reason some brothers and sisters here advocate for attending the watchtower, is a scriptural advice and that some see as a command to, and to accept the implied status of that house of worship. The judgement is upon that house and some feel that until the sign is given, they should position themselves there for the purpose of obedience and endurance of faith to Jehovah. If you think that is just a superficial fancy of membership brother, then you are very much mistaken. It is the very signal of faith for those brothers and sisters and needs to be respected, not minimised. To dismiss such faith as being as hollow and shallow or misguided, as mere attendance can be seen to be for appearance sake, is not becoming of supportive love for our brothers’ and sisters’ struggles.

Further, the scripture at James you quote, is not indicative of an absence of service for these ones. Far from it. By their very attendance, they give witness to their belief and their stand for Jehovah in carrying out the the biblical requirements of faith, in waiting for Jehovah to make his will known, to support others, to be there if there is a need or to wait for Jehovah to make use of them as his people. Who knows when that opportunity will arise? and we see the parallel in the pharasee who sat and listened to Jesus. I forget his name….and also continued in the temple along with those who sought to actually murder Christ. What better example could we want of staying in the hope to do good. Is not a constituent of faith, hope!?

The claims of the watchtower and the actions they have taken certainly delude many and does in part give credence to your claim of gullibility with regard to membership, but that does not apply to those who with insight, choose to attend, just as with the case of the pharasee who knew the Christ, but retained his position at the temple. He was there with reason to promote the word of Jehovah, just as these brothers and sisters are attending today for a reason. And that reason is not only the same as that of the pharasee, but between them and Jehovah. It is service of the heart, not of membership to the claims of the watchtower as though they are so shallow to think that such counts as a primary requisit. The watchtower underestimate the claims they make. Those who with knowledge, and who do not underestimate the claims, attend with purpose, humility and with the readiness to do service, not to save themselves, but to do the will of Jehovah. Good for them.

black curtain

Burt, thanks for the reply. I can’t really respond to why you or Sally or Thinking or anyone else has gone along to WT meetings I have no way of knowing. Your reasons are your own, and I am more than happy to accept what you say in connection with that.
I am firmly of the view that the “house of God” is all those who “claim” some connection with God and broadcast that to others in an authoratative way. That, by simple definition, includes every religious group, including church’s that incorporate Jehovah’s name in their church.
It is interesting to note that early christians were not known as “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, but rather called themselves “The Way” (of Life). Their structure and setup was not a close parallel of today’s structure. Even the Israelites were not formerly designated as Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have also said but will not go off at a tangent reread Isa 43:, re who are JW in that prophecy. It may not be who you think it is.

But speaking of parallels, I have read your account of your length of time of being a JW. It resembles mine. I do recall quite clearly that only JW’s were going to be saved, that they were the only true religion, that only JW’s had the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So I can’t really agree with your comments.
As I said once before, once you belong to a faith then you are duly bound to follow its tenets, you forsake your own conscience for that which is imposed on you. In actual fact you even agreed with that statement in one of your replies to my submissions on that topic sometime ago.

But I also want to say that if you go along to meetings, and you espouse completely different beliefs (secretly) while maintaining the facade that you hold to the beliefs that are taught from the platform then that seems to me to be a form of hypocrisy. As James said, “If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshipper and yet does not
bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man’s form
of worship is futile.”
It also strikes me that if the meetings and the people going there are so amenable then what is the fear of explaining your views? As James also said “But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom”. That doesn’t sound like freedom to me. It has the ring of Satanic submission of silence.

But that is my conscience on that matter.
Nonetheless, what I said seems to be largely unrelated to what you have written. I have no issue with anyone with what they do. Go to 10 meetings a week if that is what you choose, it is not for me to suggest you shouldn’t. Thinking, or you or Sally, or anyone else is free to do what they want. But to argue over this is a distraction. It seems to polarise people and divide them. I have the view that it should only be mentioned in passing.
kindest regards to you bc

meeting is worship to honor Jehovah not the WT idol.
Heb 10:25
Colossians 3:23
1-Cor 10:31
Colo 3:17.
not everyone visits online or here at the Watchman’ Post. if youre able then its a good and righteous thing

black curtain

Dear Doctor (aka Who), If they do it for Jehovah, so be it. Then let it be that others do it for Jehovah by moving aside and following their conscience without the taint, however small of hypocrasy. It is a reminder that others view things differently.I include the word definition

noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious
beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess,
especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
My kindest regards to you and yours bc

people dont want to go to meeting because of the bad people there. (i dont blame them) then be one of the good people there that give people a reason happy to be there. Titus 2:7 be the wheat that is contrast to those pretending and indulging in hypocrisy. if Kingdom Hall’s had more black curtain’s* then wouldnt it be a better place for others? 🙂
good to see you here though

black curtain

Dear Doctor, you have 24 hours to stop your flattery immediately:-)) ( “if KH’s had more BC’s”, Good grief what a thought?????)
I am the same as Burt. I had been a JW for many years, always surviving there by the skin of my teeth. Questions that are hard are despised, answers that are obvious are hated. I have, like Burt, no call to return and be a “fifth columnist.” That is a cause for fights and divisions. Jesus made a clear call on that, you cannot sew new cloth patches on old cloth. It just tears the old cloth to pieces, in the same way new wine that expands cannot be placed in old wineskins because the gas given off bursts them. Did you not read what contributor Max said regarding elders searching through the personal belongings of Bethelites? How much more so will they look for people who have thoughts on matters different from theirs?
What did Jesus say in the illustration about this man- (Matthew 13:45-46) 45 “Again the kingdom of the heavens is like a traveling merchant seeking fine pearls. 46 Upon finding one pearl of high value, away he went and promptly sold all the things he had and bought it.
Notice the word “seeking”? If people who are not being fed spiritually don’t seek food they die. But people who seek will be directed to find the food by Jehovah.
I ask you the obvious question; if you are getting what you need from the KH/WT, why are you on this site?
The WT regards this and other sites as pure poison. This where the problem of cognitive dissonance kicks in for JW’s, you are getting fed through RK’s articles but it becomes a bother how to join WT up to the conflicting viewpoints. I don’t envy your task. I must get out the door perhaps if time permits we can chat again.
kindest regards bc

Was Jesus a hypocrite for paying the the tax when he believed he did not owe it? Was Paul a hypocrite for helping the Nazarites fulfill their vows when he did not believe Judaism was the way to life any longer?

They both humbly complied with a wicked system in order not to stumble others and worked within the arrangement God allowed at the time. Doomed as it was. Paul even circumcised Timothy and Timothy complied. Were they hypocrites? For believing one thing yet doing another.

black curtain

Thank you Huldah, good points Jesus was not a hypocrite for paying the tax, that was his OPTION. Jesus was obliged by the Law, to do certain things, not religion I might add. Paying that tax was lawful to him as an Israelite, the clause here is- if he was a sinner and a commoner. So you have two things going on, if he opted NOT to pay the tax it was lawful, but for him alone. If he chose to pay the tax then he could explain, with out pressing others why he had no need to pay it. In that way up to this point they should still to pay it. He had not completely fulfilled his assignment at this point where such things were abolished.
Paul helped them because of fellow feeling. That was their view of what they should do, but Paul never regressed back to his former life, and that way of doing things, You may recall he went off into “the wilderness” for 17 years before he came back to pick up the apostleship because his reputation for compliance to the Pharasaical view of how one should behave was so fearsome that christians were afraid of him. So it is when people press the line of returning to others.
Thank you as always Huldah regards bc

Burt Reynolds

I agree with some of the points you make. There is indeed a seeming degree of hypocrisy in pretending to go along with what is said from the platform. Were that so. But it would not be so on two counts. There is no intent to deceive, and those attending would be quite willing to speak up if asked. There is no hypocrisy in withholding ones counsel until called upon to give it. That is not hypocrisy. That people are afraid to speak up is not hypocrisy either, even if that were the case. Peter did not speak up and own Christ three times, but that does not make him a hypocrite. He was afraid of loosing something. His life. The fact that his conscience attacked him back was good evidence of his faith. Jesus forgave him. But having learnt that lesson, he stood up for himself even against his life.

Personally, I do not believe that only Jehovah’s witnesses will be saved. I was never certain of it when I was a witness. I do not think that anyone attending here so to speak believes that either. The issue of attendance here I believe, is to know Jehovah, and that privilege is indeed open to all. I do not recall anyone suggesting otherwise. Having said that, I cannot agree that it is wrong to attend the meetings espousing differing beliefs as you put it, though that may on a superficial level appear to be the case. The truths that the witnesses speak from the bible are the exact same truths we believe. We believe the same in context, we believe the same God, we believe the same future, we believe Jehovah’s kingdom to come on earth, as it is in heaven. It is the over riding lie that we disagree with and we know, importantly, that those true in faith would believe the bible explanation too, if only they could open their eyes to it. So there is no more hypocrisy there, that there would be as a parent correcting his child as to facts.

I do not hold with the witnesses calling themselves thus as you rightly point out. They Did indeed refer to the ‘Way’. Jehovah’s witnesses assume the name, but it is that assumption that condemns them and do is necessary in prophesy. I agree wholeheartedly that the setup at the time of Christ bears no relationship to what it is now, but the setup is not important. The fact that it is portrayed as such though by the watchtower is part of the deceit in my mind.

What does bother me a little, is that you appear to disregard what people do. ‘Go to ten meetings a week if that is what you choose.’ We are here to help others and support them just as much as we enjoy their support and correction, and experiences….their fellowship. If you believe the course of action a person takes, is invalid to their welfare, it is the loving thing to do to warn them. That is scriptural too. You say this issue is not more than a distraction and should be just a foot note so to speak as you feel it causes divisions. No, it does not. To reach an agreement promotes unity. If it is just a footnote, why mention it at all? Congratulating Daisy over the differing personal insight of each in their faith is what causes divisions do you not think? Accepting one and rejecting another on a topic does divide. What would have been the correct course of action was either to say nothing as you seem to favour, or to supply concrete spiritual truth to refute the action and thus bring together in unity under the unifying authority of the bible. Because there is no clear direction on this point…it seems…then knowing that we are all about the same hope, then we should support others in unity.

I don’t go to meetings, and it causes a contradiction in my mind but is as yet beyond me to resolve but as you say, it is up to each. I hope Jehovah understands my thoughts and I see certainly no reason why he should not enjoy the motivations of those that do go just as much as those who do not, but take time to ask his direction on it. But as for those who neither know or understand Jehovah, but think they do….as for those that love Jehovah but do have insight……It is the same for them as it is for us, we will all get the choice. In the interim, clearly both in the watchtower and outside it, there are those who do have insight and as such, are supposed to do something with these figurative Talents. Within the congregations are where those Talents will probably come into contact with those who will invest. Those who use the name whether in the watchtower or any other church need to be listening to those who will tell the truth. For if they have no teacher, how will they know? Clearly knowing the truth, has a value.

black curtain

Burt thank you for the response, it is always heartfelt. I will try to answer just some of it as how long is a piece of string?
Peter was a hypocrite and a liar in this instance. Fear takes us all at times Jesus understood that and forgave him. Peter overcame at least that weakness and still had a distinguished life as an apostle.
Just to jump a few paragraphs. I was not disregarding what people do. The 10 meetings per week is hyperbole to make a point that, that is their business what they do, and some were quite strongly assertive about this,and it has spilled over into how other other people see things. RK picks up the odd meeting or two but never labors the point, so some balance is needed.
Bert whether you go to the meetings or not is personal. You have made your feelings known on that, and are not a prosletyser of that, you respect others views.If people want to mention them do that, but if I see an aggressive line being pushed of that nature then I will says so.
thank you for the kindly reply bc

Huldah

Excellent Burt. Transcendent, Above the issue of belief or organization, is the question?

What took more integrity?

For the needy widow to walk humbly through a crowd of righteous overmuch Pharisees and courageously drop “all the means of living she had” into the coffer. Then walk past the greedy money changers, with full faith that she had more than they did because she was trusting in God’s arrangement, corrupt though it was , thereby trusting in God himself.

OR

To go and find a more convenient religion, even a pagan one, or perhaps the Samaritans who were so close to the beliefs of the Jews. Then she might be able to find a small like minded group without a hypocritical leadership.

BUT
What course did Christ commend?

This Christ who is so important, even more important than the God HE worshipped, to some.
Was at the temple too.

The form of worship Christ later instituted became called “the way”. It was a specific set of beliefs and an organization centered on making sacrifices to preach the good news all over the then world. There was no GB but it was connected through letters and visits from self sacrificing traveling overseers such as Paul and Timothy. One set of beliefs, one focus as exemplified by the life of Paul. And when Barnabas was a bit askew, Priscilla and Aquila ” expounded the way of the truth more correctly to him.” It was a very specific way and truth.

And it became corrupted by the “superfine apostles”.

As much as I despise the modern day Pharisees, all is proceeding as foretold with the WT org.

And, any who know TTATT and still stand up to the lies inside the org and are there to help the lowly ones are displaying the true selfless courage of Christ, the widow and Paul.

Had to get a magnifying glass out to read that on perimeno…print is so tiny. So… many thanks for the link about God’s Sovereignty not needing vindicating, the explanation backed up by many scriptures. Stay searching Searcher! Sending love with many thanks:D

Searcher

Thx to u, before u brought the faulty reasoning behind universal sovereignty to my attention i took it as a given. U gave me pause for thought. Prov 27:17

Burt Reynolds

No. I think that is what Is being said Sally. It is a fact of scripture that none of these other religions claim to represent Jehovah. In fact, there are few, if any, that represent the bible, let alone the ettiquette contained therein. What does it matter what they do? Who are they misrepresenting? Certainly not Jehovah, just some nameless deity that is okay with all their sinning from war to homosexuality, to abortion, to burning people alive. What honour does it bring to Jehovah to sweep these religions away when not one of them have a clue as to the meaning of the god they represent? I can imagine it now….’ Oh that God whatshisname has just done away with those guys who believed we are reborn as something else when we die…’

That there are men and women outside of Jehovah’s organisation that know of him, though perhaps not his name but are rightly disposed to him, is almost a certainty, though I don’t know for sure, but it’s reasonable to expect so. Look at his creation! How can it be missed? It’s applauds his work every day. He is known to those people. He will not forget them.

Burt Reynolds

That is good food for consideration. These questions come to my mind: if judgement is coming to His house, do we need to be in it? We are judged on our motive, our deeds, our loyalty and our love for His righteousness. What is the relationship of physical presence at a hall, with these issues of conscience and choice? Jesus said that when two or three of his people are together, he will be there. The context bring, anywhere they are gathered. Should we not be repelled by the wrongdoing going on in the house? What is the condemnation from Jehovah for our leaving if we believe this, and how are we to reconcile within our hearts, these contradictions?

The house of Jehovah is a spiritual place. No house can contain him that is physical. We are all of us from that point of view ‘in’ his house ( or hope we are). The disgusting thing presumably has literal, physical and spiritual meaning in what it represents. The Roman army was physical, the judgement of its slaughter was a spiritual comment from Jehovah. Those who believed in that judgement had already left. What then of those, who, piecing together the words of Jesus, had left before the Roman army first turned up in 67AD? They had the same portents as we do. Jesus said that it would come within their generation and he told them exactly where and exactly what would happen. Would not the wise had thought it better to get away from there at the time, just to be sure. That would have taken faith to do so. Though Jesus said ‘when you see the disgusting thing’….he did not say that they should wait for it to appear. Just as we may say to our children….when you see a car coming, get out of the road ( in my day hours could pass between cars! ), but there was no penalty for leaving the road for the safety of the verge beforehand. In fact, it was wisdom to do so.

I have to be honest. I have motives for staying away. My family, my own health, I don’t want to repeat the horrors I went through again from the brothers, I can think of nothing that they can teach me at the hall and most of all I don’t want to be involved in it all again. What am I refining? What is being refined in me? I want to devote my time to discovering truth, not fighting contentions of doctrine.

This place has given me an insight that I neither deserve, thought existed, or want to waste or contradict with lies, but if that is what it takes to preserve the will of Jehovah, I would take that path and go back. But no one has convinced me of the reason to do so as yet and if the watchtower taught me one thing, it was not to blindly follow. So I’m not arguing with you or trying to usurp your conscience, I am simply asking for your insight to which I can give consideration. To make sure of all things.

Thinking

I have no great insights brother….many of us go back because we feel Jehovah clearly directed that course of action…
I personally have a responsibility to my brothers and sisters there …who are genuine…and are participating in the preaching work..and accomplishing that mammoth task that HAS TO BE DONE before he can return…
It’s good they are not awake..as the wind may very well be taken from their sail..and the preaching work stop before he is satisfied with it….and then the end will never come !!!!..uuuugh !!
What great insights have I learned going back….hardly none… actually not hardly…..none!!……but on a personal level…a huge refining work on my qualities…patience being my worst….and humility to know ..that ..I needed it..and so much more….
It’s for others and Jehovah…I’d prefer to stay at home…and learn more that way… Yet I also have to engage in the ministery as well..in what ever form that proves to be….but you know what brother Burt….what really gets me…..it’s the pattern laid out from his previous households….
Also …how come Jehovah drew us to a corrupt house….he knew the man of lawlessness was always there…I could have gone of with the the seventh Day Adventist….the Christodelphines or Mormans ..of which I looked into all at the same time .

Of which would have been much more acceptable to my family thus an easier life for me…yet he drew me to Jehovah’s witnesses…and I fought it all the way too……so I guess he knew what he was doing at the time so I have to remain faithful to him in that action……even tho I don’t understand why at times….perhaps as it all unfolds I will see clearer…now I just have to trust in him….as I did way back then…
Yet that’s just me Burt…everyone is different I guess…some plum worn down….too hurt…some just don’t want it any more full stop…..who knows….but for me…I wasn’t given a choice …I have had to follow his clear direction…

Also Burt..maybye he could see that I needed to go back on a individual basis…meetings were meant to be encouraging ..to do good works and deeds…not draining as KB has so aptly described…there is more to this than you and I see or understand at this time…well me anyway…I don’t know what the future holds for ones like us…but I do know it’s important to be seen..to have a visible presence….so as to aide others….I have already seen this with me and my circumstances….at least two others are slowly understanding about the weeds….they don’t even have to know that much even….just enough…..I have great hope for others in that time of confusion….many will stand for Jehovah regardless..but a few may need some gentle support…many will fall away according to scripture……or I may fall of the perch before it all happens …hahah….but for me….I could not deny what he was directing me to do…

Craig Knight

Very nicely put Raven!!!

Burt Reynolds

Good thoughts for consideration.

KB

It takes approximately one roll of duct tape per meeting. Xanax helps too I hear.

Craig Knight

Ha ha! That’s for sure. I went to meetings a few times and I hated it!

sally

Hi Hulda thank you for responding, I always enjoy and learn tons from your posts. I have been massively shocked by what I have learned about the organisation when I was in the middle of learning the basics of scriptures as well. It was all almost too much. I do not disagree with anything said about the organisation by either you or any of you that post here. It is all..sadly true. I just responded to Arvid so won’t repeat myself here in this post to you other than to ask if the sheep being scattered right before the end meant now or once the organisation meets its prophisised end?

Huldah

Hi again Sally
Thanks for the kind compliment. I’m usually typing on my buggy phone so I get a little lazy with my scripture references. I found the one I was referring to.

Here is what I had in mind……

Ezekiel 34:
2“Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds, the leaders of Israel. Give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: What sorrow awaits you shepherds who feed yourselves instead of your flocks. Shouldn’t shepherds feed their sheep?
3You drink the milk, wear the wool, and butcher the best animals, but you let your flocks starve.
4You
have not taken care of the weak. You have not tended the sick or bound
up the injured. You have not gone looking for those who have wandered
away and are lost. Instead, you have ruled them with harshness and
cruelty.
5So my sheep have been scattered without a shepherd, and they are easy prey for any wild animal.
6They
have wandered through all the mountains and all the hills, across the
face of the earth, yet no one has gone to search for them.

7“Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord:
8As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord,
you abandoned my flock and left them to be attacked by every wild
animal. And though you were my shepherds, you didn’t search for my sheep
when they were lost. You took care of yourselves and left the sheep to
starve.
9Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord.
10This is what the Sovereign Lord
says: I now consider these shepherds my enemies, and I will hold them
responsible for what has happened to my flock. I will take away their
right to feed the flock, and I will stop them from feeding themselves. I
will rescue my flock from their mouths; the sheep will no longer be
their prey.

The Good Shepherd

11“For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search and find my sheep.
12I
will be like a shepherd looking for his scattered flock. I will find my
sheep and rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on
that dark and cloudy day.
13I
will bring them back home to their own land of Israel from among the
peoples and nations. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel and by
the rivers and in all the places where people live.
14Yes,
I will give them good pastureland on the high hills of Israel. There
they will lie down in pleasant places and feed in the lush pastures of
the hills.
15I myself will tend my sheep and give them a place to lie down in peace, says the Sovereign Lord.
16I
will search for my lost ones who strayed away, and I will bring them
safely home again. I will bandage the injured and strengthen the weak.
But I will destroy those who are fat and powerful. I will feed them,
yes—feed them justice!

The evil shepherds appear to apply to now when the MOL is at work. To me, I see the scattering applying now to us but also as vs 12 says some are scattered on a “dark and cloudy day”, perhaps during the judgement on the house of God during Christ’s presence or the GT. Many will be stumbled as the untruths related to WT are revealed. Jehovah says he will gather back his sheep and destroy the fat and powerful ones, likely also during Christ’s presence. Kevin may be hovering around with a good article. This is just how I see it as it lines up with what Robert has written.

sally

Hi Hulda. Thanks for the scriptures. There are many many sheep who are scattered but have not been able to find the real truth for whatever reasons. Probably alot to do with the indoctrination of the WT that everything outside of their own teachings is apostate and so whilst being treated harshly and falling away they do not even know to search elsewhere, beliving the only altenatives are false religions. So they fall away but love the true God and his son Jesus Christ nevertheless. Then there are others, like those here, that had the same treatment but finally found the real truths. Once you get the real truths surely that is easier to bare than being completely lost like so many? I was studying and planning on making my way out the door completely…still believing in Jehovahs promises but not being able to carry on in the organisation. Finding the real truth gave me the inpetus to carrry on. I can’t even put into words how blessed I feel for the understanding I have been given. So, whilst hard, and it is hard. I do not feel uplifted before during and after a meeting rather I feel angry and bitter at their teachings and my own personal treatment and some others who I think have been treated badly who have served faithfully for years, I do it for Jehovah because I can’t find any scriptural support for leaving right now. The rest of the sheep will be scattered on the “dark and gloomy day” as you say. But it is my belief (I think so anyway, I am still trying to work it all out) that until that day comes, it is Jehovah’s will that we do not abandon his house completely but rather use the knowledge we have been super blessed to know to sustain ourselves.

Huldah

You have a lot of insight. I’m still working out a lot myself, but i do not disagree with your viewpoint or that of “Thinking” who sees things similarly.

Thinking

You will be okay Huldah….you are healing….and it takes time…each has their own wound ….I found the healing goes in stages…much love and thoughts to you sis….xx

Huldah

Thanks for your encouragement. I’m at work now but I had a question, if you want to email me personally at elihusnyder@gmail.com.

Thinking

I’ve emailed you sis

Burt Reynolds

Those are powerful scriptures. They certainly give more consideration to what is happening now and how this exodus would apply, or could apply and appeal to the consciences of congregants on an individual basis, at the time of discovery! Not only that, but the scripture you quote here, is in context with the purity of worship demanded by the Father. Thanks. A good insight.

Burt Reynolds

Yes I agree with that. I think it is an individual choice in the end analysis. Some can, some cannot, and each has an explanation.

Craig Knight

I don’t think that Christians in Jesus day would be tossed out of the congregation for asking good questions. Today many are ripped away from their eternal hope because of asking some elder about 607 and 1914 or blood fractions etc…so many cannot stay in God’s house even if they wanted to.

Burt Reynolds

I have never found any person in the congregation able to answer those questions emphatically from the scriptures. They either repeat what the watchtower says and point to scriptures out of context, Or, one is told to wait on Jehovah, which is a euphemism for ‘I don’t know, but I’m too proud to say so.’ Neither did I find anyone who wanted to sit down and discuss the bible. Sure, we would argue, but to come together to discuss outside of the meetings? Unheard of.

The Raven

That’s a shame, man. My brother lived next door to a witness for about ten years. She was in her late 60s and widowed. She, her sister and brother in law were pioneers from Pennsylvania and he was an elder. They were in their 80s. My brother and I would cut her grass and prune the shrubs and trees and I can’t count how many spur of the moment discussions we had with her. She would almost always attract a crowd as the neighbors would wander over and sit for a spell. When she realized she had an audience of a number of men she stopped and told me she had to get a head covering. I was confused. She explained why. I handed her my ball cap and she laughed. I asked if scripture said it had to be lace or silk. She said no and put it on her head. She was a delightful lady and had a great sense of humor. Very intelligent . We would rent movies and sit and watch them at my brother’s house. Her favorite was George of the jungle with Brendan Frazier.
She understood where we were on many subjects and told me we weren’t the first she had spoken with about those matters.
She did not have all the answers but had a wealth of wisdom about Jehovah’s ways.
She moved to Minnesota to live with a niece when her health declined. We learned a lot from her and her sister and brother in law. They passed years ago and the fondest memories I have of her was when she called us to catch a horse that escaped the vets office down the road and a few weeks later we had to go round up a goat who was eating everything in her yard, head butting the lawn mower and eyeing her car. It was always animals. One day all the neighborhood dogs gathered in her front yard and around our feet during one of our impromptu studies and she slyly looked at me and asked, “you worried?”
I said, ” I didn’t hear any trumpets. ” She laughed at me so hard she had tears in her eyes. She was a bit mischievous ( but in a funny way) and managed to get into trouble with the elders every so often but even they couldn’t resist cracking a smile at her humor. We liked her a great deal.
I miss her and I hope to see her again someday.

Arvid Fløysand

Thank you for shareing those good memories…there is a lot of fine lovley brothers and sisters like that amoung JW…We have a wonderful loving Creator who made us able to be caring,loving humans with a big heart and good humor….when i read your nice comment,i got reminded of similar brothers and sisters years ago…make me smile…but just like in your case…they are gone and i miss them all so very much.
I am sure our heavenly Father miss them too…He clearly demonstrated his emosjonal feelings thru His son,when Jesus cryed because of Lazarus death…

As you..i hope to be there in that wonderful time when all those nice people coming back…that will indeed be a time of universial super-joy…just imagine…not only Jehovah and Jesus but of course all the angels have those feelings as we do and they will together with all humans on earth let all the good emotions run free in that greatest “year of jubilee” ever…:-)

Jamie Mac

Bring it on, now 🙂

Arvid Fløysand

Yes Jamie…do you remember when coloured-tv came?
The life we are living now is just like black/white compared to the colorued wonderful life that soon is to come…:-)
Even a sinful human is able to make their own kids very happy for a short while,and give their children all the best just to see them happy…how much moore is our heavenly Father able and willing to give us the best …He really love us…Jesus said so(Joh.3:16)…and we BELIVE Him 🙂

Jamie Mac

Lovely to see you back and commenting Arvid, I noticed you were not around for a while. Maybe, you were, but you were not commenting. I have always loved your comments. Don’t leave again, even for a minute.

Richard Long

I second that emotion!

The Raven

Oh yeah, I remember black and white and rabbit ears. I had to hold the antenna just so and not move so my father could watch the soccer game on channel 47 in NYC. He got better reception from me than with tin foil wrapped around the ends.
lol!

Burt Reynolds

I think everyone gets better reception from you Raven regardless of what you are pointing at! ( I can’t cope with American football. It takes about an hour to get ten feet and I could never figure out where the hut was. I was always looking for the grounds man’s shed).

The Raven

Hahaha! My father couldn’t either. He and my mom had a ritual on Saturdays during the soccer finals and cup matches. They prepared trays of food that had to be separate because there were Jews, Catholics and Muslims and a couple Hindus and invited the neighbors from upstairs to join and they also brought food. I was exposed to all sorts of really good things in fact. I had to serve drinks during and espresso afterwards. But my main job was the TV. I hated the aerials and between messing with it on the roof of a five story building and my father yelling so the whole block could hear, I chatted with other tenants up there whose families were yelling from the apartments below up to them. You couldn’t see them for all the laundry hanging on lines so we guessed who yelled right, left, or stop right there! In several different languages! We also kept a transistor radio handy in case we lost signal. But that only worked right by the front door. When we did lose signal you heard all sorts of expletives from everywhere on the block! Haha!
Back up to the roof!

Arvid Fløysand

hehehe…and look at us now…we are still holding the “antenna” and all do our very best to get the clearest reception to pleace our heavenly Father…He want to watch the good news of the Kingdom…the best reallity-program ever 🙂
I am happy to be in this program together with you and everyone on this site and all people around the whole entire world where ever they are …trying to hold their “antenna”….if we only could see this with the eyes of Jehova`s loyal angels…this enormous army…the greatest army ever…marching in same direction,all with our antennas…maybe not in perfect order at the moment..we sometimes hook the antennas into those beside us…ore step on somones toe…but soon,when the Holy spirit gets in with full power…that will really boost the system…the “picture” will be in HD

Jamie Mac

Yes in HD with no adverts from Satan trying to pull us away with special offers. Entice one , entice another for free.

The Raven

Seems like a million years and a million miles away at times, doesn’t it? Time hasn’t faded the sadness or memories of any of the people I miss sorely even though I know Christ will call them all out of their graves and they will live again. My greatest hope is to be there, like you. Thanks for the uplifting words, Arvid.

Craig Knight

That’s because they are so brainwashed they fear the GB’s long reach via the elders and other snitches in the kingdom hall. I don’t think a Christian should ever be afraid to question anything if He is firm in his faith. FEAR is the basis for closing one’s eye’s and ear’s.

Thinking

Amos 5:13
Therefore those with insight will keep silent at that time…for it will be a Time of calamity…
14 search for what is good and not what is bad..SO YOU MAY KEEP LIVING theN Jehovah of armies MAY BE WITH YOU…..

AS Song of Hannah told me once…Jehovah has to put up with his wayward people…and his hurt …pain and humiliation….so why not us.?

Is he not teaching us qualities he himself is displaying and exercising towards his own people….can we not..if at all possible try our best to reflect…his qualities ….even if it is rather poorly…?

Craig Knight

Thinking Hi! Is it safe to say that you are an active JW right now?

Thinking

Yes…well still trying anyway..

Giuseppe

Yes

Arvid Fløysand

Hello Sally 🙂
Do you know that the book of Mattew was originally written in hebrew?
There is still original manuscript available of this book in hebrew.
And there is a very interesting detalj just in Matt.23:3…but first i have to mention something about the “seat of Moses”….maybe you know this…but in every synagoge there used to be a spesial seat…often heavely decorated…some made of wood,other of stone…those seat was called the seat of Moses.

The reason for this was that if a scribe ore pharisee was going to read some of Moses`s words…they had to place themselves in that spesial made “Moses seat”
By doing so,everyone should understand that it was like moses himself was speaking to them.

Then back to the interesting detalj in verse 3…The original hebrew book of Mattew sayes : ” Therfore,all the things HE = (Moses) tell you,do and observe,but do not according to their = (scribes,phariseean ) deeds……

That make this scripture even moore clear…:-)

Men can be wrong…Gods inspired word is safe listening to ….so we better do like the Beroeans…study the scripthures to make sure of all thing 🙂

Richard Long

yes…. the Beroeans… the Beroeans?….hmmm…..

Arvid Fløysand

Acts 17:10,11 🙂

Richard Long

Arvid, I’m shocked! You mean there are actually believers that start with the word of God and and build understanding from it as opposed to those who start with an “understanding” and build the “word of God” from it? I wonder if they catalog their findings on the web?

Arvid Fløysand

Well Richard as you recently mentioned in one of your comments….it is possible to identify each and every one by their “fruits” if they are good ore bad…
Again the Bible give and provide us with all the tools that we need to do this…(Gal.5:16-26)….:-)

sally

Thank you for that interesting history of Moses seat Arvid. I did not know that information and did not know that the original Hebrew scripture was “He” as opposed to “They” you are right it does make the scripture more clearer 🙂 I agree we better do like the Beroeans, I suppose all that are here are doing like the Beroeans because we have searched outside of the organisation in order to be make sure of all things. Just as Jesus instructed. However I still do not find any scriptural reasoning to leave the organisation as of yet. And I am saying that as an unbaptised, ex study student who attends meetings reasonably regularly where i am most certainly eyed with suspiciion (due to my suden halt in progression) almost to the point of being shunned. But I suppose Mark 8 v.34 comes into play here where Jesus said : 34 He now called the crowd to him with his disciples and said to them: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake* and keep following me. Attending meetings is a kind of torture I do not learn deep scriptural understanding there that is for sure, and I have found behaviours there shocking but what i am learning is patience humbleness (feeling like I am the only one in the KH that knows and understands the errors despite being viewed as spiritually weak and not one of them) mildness (I am very submissive despite often feeling enraged by what I see and hear. Lots of qualities I am having to learn and put into practice by attending actually which I have not applied before. Is this not a test of refinement? To try and actually put into practice the qualities that Jehovah requires of us? If it is God’s household despite the fact that it has been corrupted by wicked men then I want to try and be loyal to it and therefore him however hard that is.

Arvid Fløysand

I belive you will find comfort in reading Jesajah 57:14-21….and if you like to…let me know if you find some interesting paralells 🙂

sally

Arvid, I read Isaiah as you gave, I find the whole book of Isaiah facinating and comforting generally – it is in my top 3 favorite books actually even though there are big parts I do not understand yet. It is indeed a comfort for example versus 14 and 15 but I am not getting what you mean by interesting paralells?

Arvid Fløysand

Isaiah was one of the prophets who Jehovah used to warn his people in Judah and jerusalem before the Babylonian were sent to destroy the city and the temple….so like most of the prophets in the Bible…it has already been fulfilled once and sometime twice…but as you know…those fulfillments foreshaddow the last and greater ones in the endtime that we happend to live in 🙂

So there is therfore a parralell fulfilment in our time…look for those 🙂

Huldah

You have way more insight than the average bible student. It’s evidence of holy spirit. You have to make the choice that works for you. Keep educating yourself on TTAT so as to protect yourself. I’ve found that, here in the states, humility is seen as a weakness. I don’t think that was the case a few decades ago when God still influenced American thinking. The Costa Ricans still respect humility and will make a point to say they strive to be humble. They are very religious.

I do agree that associating with the congregation makes one learn humility, endurance and patience. I assume Moses’ journey to become the ‘meekest man in all the earth’ was likely learned through dealing with setbacks and disappointments, injustice, frustrations with people and an awareness that he was not nearly as important as he originally thought he was. There are abuses, though. Fortunately you are aware. This is a great protection.

The tests, the refinement, the humility you mention. It’s all biblical that these things would be required of true Christians. Take advantage of the HS you obviously have and look to the Bible with Jehovah’s guidance. We’re all at different stages in the game and I really think Jehovah takes our unique experiences and circumstances into account.

Burt Reynolds

I admire your stand. It is so plainly truthful. Surely you will be blessed for it.

sally

Thank you Burt. I am hoping that we all get blessed for living with and managing this burden. For it is a burden as we don’t live in the “spiritual paradise” like so many seem to do. Of course there are many that are not “awake” yet but are still being crushed and likely confused by the organisation. I suppose that is even a bigger burden to bare, part of me envy’s those who think the org and the GB are the bees knees and think they have got a 3 day great tribulation where they sit in a KH and wait it out. They haven’t got a care in the world right now.

Burt Reynolds

It is a situation that is full of contradictions for many. The actions of the watchtower stack up in their abuse of the flock. There is no need to itemise it again….assuming one could list all their deeds….assuming one could list our own! I suppose one has to have a definitive personal purpose to attend and yet the primary reasons are to serve the Father…..but by what means? Is sitting in a place, on a chair, that means of gaining approval, in the true meaning of ‘attendance’? And the other primary reason for attendance, is to align ourselves with the qualifying requirements to survive. Though one is more important…to honour the father…the second is that it is necessary to stay alive to do so from our point of view and to do that, we must genuinely love what we do for His name. And to achieve that, we need to feed on truth. Countless witnesses attend in a perfunctory fashion. They give nothing, and take nothing away. They go because they hope to live. The two functions are inextricably linked. As with the antitypical ethic of the apostles, they ask, ‘where else do I go?’

So what can one give by attending, and what can one be given, because what part of the lie would one willingly take from the Kingdom Hall and use? And what part of the simple message is it that we do not know or that is replenished as we attend, and thus build our faith? If anything is gained, it is not anything that has not already been said here and, to be sure, finely built upon.

The primary scripture that I can think of, is that of casting one’s bread upon the waters, and they will return to you a hundred fold. In applying that scripture, can we really ‘attend’ by our presence alone and thus cast our bread, or do we need to speak out to those who will listen? If they throw us out for doing so, they make their choice, as they do also if they leave us alone and shun us at the hall, and thus it is that we have purpose in going, because one, may listen. It is difficult to see what can be gained by taking a loaf of bread to the waters edge and eating it yourself. It is a question I ask myself daily and if I’m honest, the answer is always selfish and self reasoned. I think there will be a time when we all must go to the temple and have our share in the telling of the truth. And I can tell you why I think that too, because to ‘come out of her my people’ requires a visible, spiritual and verbal mark of departure, just as much as does our stand against the mark of the beast. You have an enviable position to those that tarry, so in using it, don’t let it burden you. Take a joy in it. You have something few have, but many of those few wish they had, if the truth be known.

sally

But how can we go to the temple and put our head up above the parapit so to speak, if we have not been in the temple and are not known in the temple?

Burt Reynolds

Yes. That is a valid point. If one goes to the meeting and speaks up, that alienates that person from the herd. If one does not speak up, then does that help, is that the right thing to do? A time to speak, a time to stay silent. Is it correct to speak up before it all turns sour or after, and if after, why should they listen to someone who said nothing until it was nigh too late? I suppose the answer to your question, or the question in general, is that it is not likely to be us that draws people after us, but the Holy Spirit that will draw people to what we have to say. Whether we have to be at the temple beforehand or not is debatable and even if people would listen to us either. What makes us think that others will pay attention to what we have to say? We hope that they will, that’s for sure, but we have no substance perhaps to believe that, …not any more than we do in the ministry work. But your right to think that it may do if you have the trust of people and to have that, do they not need to know what our trustworthiness is? It comes down to how others see us to be, but desperation will lead many to listen where before they would not. A drowning man will clutch even at straws.

Having said that, if anyone of us speaks up now, we will be thrown out. But does that matter? Those elders cannot disfellowship us from Jehovah but people will only then speak with us on pain of their own disfellowshipping. So maybe if we want others to listen to us, or have the opportunity to listen to us, it is best to stay silent. There is a paradox for you! The elders are impotent of any power, other to exclude us from the congregation and make us sit in the usual glass container at the back…..I think most halls have them now….ours was euphemistically termed the ‘mother and baby room’. Likewise, those who are finding watchtower dialogue questionable….they may ask of others, but to whom shall they turn? Hardly the elders, but to turn to others, they have to turn to dissenters. And to know who they are, they have to know thier argument. But Jehovah leads his people to the truth.

For my part, I think I will be standing outside the hall, offering what insight I can to those who will listen when the cookie crumbles. At present, here, there seems to be a lot of protest outside the halls over child abuse and the police are there more often than not. I don’t want to associate myself with that because if I did, I would have to agree with the protesters. I would also be sticking my hand up at the watchtower and saying my bit and I know that after the first study, I would not be called on again and I would just be drawing attention to myself by continuing to put my hand up. The only reason I can think of to do that, is to signal to people that I disagree, and thus attract others who may be questioning…..if they know what my argument is. And to do that, they have to speak with me, and to do that, they have to be prepared to risk their own standing. As I said, it’s one big contradiction and the only solution to it is to with prayer, follow your heart, or better still, the bible and let the Father enlighten you in due course and which he will do according to your desire to serve him. Though why he seems to answers others differently, …that’s too deep for me!

The psychology, as you will know, is to shun anyone with a different opinion, or a dissenting opinion. If the opinion is not dissent, then the questioner is ‘weak’ in their faith and is viewed with caution. If the question is doctrinal, then it is opposed vigorously with shunning and disfellowshipping. In the end analysis, especially at this time, and with regard to others who have gone before into this choice, my own opinion is that one has to decide how to play their card…the right time, the right place, or to sit on it. We can only play it the once. Though we may hold the winning hand, is it actually our game, or do we need to be told when to play them, and how. Probably, we need to be in it (the temple) to win it. Makes sense. But then should we speak up and get ourselves thrown out as an example?

Huldah

That’s Grrreat. He=Moses
I have often tried to reconcile how that scripture fits with our modern day pharisees. That fits. Since Jesus is the greater Moses we can apply that to him today.

Paul said observe those who are supposed to be setting the example by proper leadership and as you ‘see how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith’. Of course ‘by their works you will recognize those men’ ‘A good tree does not produce rotten fruit.’ So when we see the rotten fruit the modern pharisees produce such as pride and a lack of compassion, we know not to imitate their course of life, but recognize a ‘rotten tree’. It all connects.

Isaac of Coimbatore

Yeah I think you do more research, I got some points.

Burt Reynolds

Yes! But how often do we see the fruitage of these ones? Every day I seem to read about some heinous crime that has come to light after being hidden for years by some elder, or the watchtower. Sometimes I think I am just grasping at straws to find a reason not to attend the meetings and yet, what I hear and read, makes me consider who or what is teaching me were I to go? The percentage of truth does not shrink in the watchtower. It is still the same message and yet the use of, and implementation of that message daily becomes yet more buried under a thick layer of regulation, control, and promotion of the lie.

When I first came to a knowledge of the truth, the watchtower described themselves as being a rose growing in a rubbish dump. Yet it has turned out that they are the rubbish dump, and the Rose of truth, is lost in a sea of ever growing filth. I think if I attended, I would be unable to keep my mouth shut….why should I? ….and would on my first day be labelled as either ‘still being deep in christendom’ or an ‘apostate’. Either way I would be avoided by like the plague. And certainly, if we are to attend, then of what use are we unless we speak of these things because if we were ever to help others, they must know of our understanding. Who would dare be seen associating with us? We presume that they would turn to use for advice, but is that likely? I don’t know. I suppose that is the hands of the Father, but at some point, we are told to abandon the temple, and if the heart is the temple, where does the disgusting thing stand? And yet morally, how do we add support to these things by our attendance and is it presumption on our part that we can be of service? Sometimes I wonder if 1914 had a significance after all, in that perhaps it was then, that we should have got out! The scripture, Mathew 24.15 says: ‘So when you see standing in the holy place, the abomination that causes desolation….’ New International Version…..refers to YOU. So either that applies to our own discernment of what is the abomination, or that the abomination is identified and agreed upon before hand. Otherwise, would not the scripture say ‘when the abomination….’ There seems a hint of discernment left to the reader there. At present, It just seems that all of it is an abomination at this time. Nevertheless, I suspect that the current understanding of the abomination is correct, but meanwhile, the watchtower seems so contrary to every fibre of decency left in its people and it just makes it harder to attend against a growing conscience.

Huldah

You are right. Great summary of the issues we confront.
I have to conclude that Jehovah deals with us as individuals. We have the truth. We’ve taken a stand for it. We have TTAT.

A question sprung to mind just now.
If Paul had been just a lowly publisher, with no authority to correct the “superfine apostles”, how would he have coped with being inside that congregation? What if he couldnt move around, but had to stay in that congregation? What if he knew he would be branded apostate even disfellowshipped for disagreeing. What would he do?

What you said about the truth becoming more and more buried by the lie.
Very accurate.

The work of the MOL is coming full fruition. This is why I think many of the true sheep are scattered, unable to serve under the tyranny of the MOL. How can they? How could Paul?

On the temple point.
I see the metaphor this way.

Antitype
The physical temple=WT org

Symbolism
The physical temple=the holy place

Antitype
The holy place=the WT org,. possibly specific to headquarters or the center of JW worship

Symbolism
The temple=true Christians, especially the anointed

Symbolism
The disgusting thing=Romans=UN= current tyrannical empire

So I understand it to be the UN dissolving WT.

We are the temple but not the holy place as I see it.

Of course tell me if I missed something. I’m sorting this out for myself too!

Burt Reynolds

I don’t really have any idea Huldah! I wonder really why the UN would have any interest in the watchtower. Why should they? Why would the nations bother about what is, pro-rata with the main line religions, just seen as a wayward cult. It has no influence that I know of and its assets are small compared with say the Catholics. I can only imagine they somehow connect it with a power that does pose a threat, and which ultimately they will. What happens before that to expose the lie, I don’t know, but I hope everyone gets an apology out of them!

Isaac of Coimbatore

What I see from your comments is that you have done the types and antitypes. Your work is great and appreciated very much, and interesting to read and going straight into my brains like an ICBM missile striking its target. I learned a lot from this. Very Very Good (I have doubt are you anointed? I am not joking).
But what happened to me is that if I open anything like this with my congregation they say the WTS has stopped doing that see the below mentioned link: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20150315/types-antitypes/

But I say to them if you don’t see the bible as types and anti types then how you will understand its depth. If you don’t take that way then will you take it literally just as Christendom?
For example how will you understand Habakkuk:3:17: says Although the olive crop may fail: Why prophet Habakkuk has to bother because of failure of literal olive crop? So what does it means? If you take it literally you will not understand.To understand that we need to ask that question with Zech :4:11 and the answer is in Zech:4:14, here Jehovah’s angel itself is speaking in terms of types and antitypes

Now the understanding of whole of Hab:3:17 becomes clearer that is Although the olive crop may fail = Even though anointed ones are not there to guide us.
And the fields (see Mat:13:1-8 to understand field) may produce no food = World wide Christian congregations may not support us with spiritual food.
Although the flock (see John:10:16 to understand flock) may disappear from the pen= Although there will be no fellow believers in the congregation due to ban imposed by NWO.
Yet, as for me, I will exult in Jehovah; = Still I will feel triumphant in Jehovah because of my unwavering faith in Jehovah.
I will be joyful in the God of my salvation.= I will still be joyful during the great tribulation in the time of distress because Jehovah God is my salvation.

Once I locked them by asking such questions. See Paul himself mention about types and anti types in Galatians 4:21-31, so what’s wrong in doing that?
No brother the society says so. Then I went back to the above link mentioned and read once again and I came to the conclusion in that article that holy spirit has been removed from GB. Have you noticed Sister? Am I right Sister? If so please correct me!!!
They admitted in the above link mentioned that Paul was writing under inspiration; thus, we gladly accept what he says about these types.
So my question is why GB is unable to do as Paul did? They are saying so that they will not do because they are comparing the works of some writers in the centuries after Christ’s death such as Origen, Ambrose, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo who were not inspired so indirectly the GB is comparing itself to these uninspired men. That is why it is their own admission in FEB 2017 WT study magazine Who Is Leading God’s People Today? Subheading: “WHO REALLY IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?” Paragraph 12:The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. So said Geoffrey Jackson :That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using.

Huldah

That example in Zechariah also mentions the lampstands, which are the congregations as shown in Rev, Jesus standing in their midst. I think the two accounts are parallel.
Vs 6&7 also seem to refer to the “rock not cut out by human hands” that pulverizes the image in Daniel.
Interesting parallels.

Yes the GB is wrong about antitypes. They aren’t everywhere but they are as important as symbolism to understanding prophecy.
I think the Gb is, as we say”poo pooing” their importance because they sense that Jeh has blinded them as to prophecy and they want to downplay it’s importance.

It’s hard for me to answer the “anointed” question because I no longer believe the WT idea that some are called and some are not. I believe that all true Christians are called to live a life of self denial as symbolized by carrying the the “torture stake”of Christ.
The goal of the New Testament is to lead and instruct us through the trials that come to refine us so that we can “learn obedience” from the things we suffer as Christ did. Then we qualify for immortality, having proved beyond a doubt our allegiance to Jehovah. This is just and logical.
As of yet, I don’t have a special desire to go to heaven. I would enjoy taking care of the birds and plants on earth. I don’t want to be a demi god or rule over others, but that’s not what it’s about. Ruling in heaven is hard work and humble sacrifice for others, not glory and ease. I do take it as a compliment to my spirituality that you would even suggest it. This I have sacrificed very much to obtain and it’s a comfort to feel my sacrifice was not for nothing as the world and the congregation would like me to believe. For this, I am very grateful to you, brother.

Isaac of Coimbatore

Thank you very much. I have deep respect for you. One doubt! Is my understanding on Hab:3:17 correct or not? Please someone should verify my thinking and I kindly request you please.

tommyboy

Israelites are still God’s people. He made an EVERLASTING covenant with them. The TRUE church (true Christians) are Jesus’ people. He too made an everlasting covenant with His church.

You are correct about no Scriptural evidence about abandoning the Jews or taking their place. In fact, it’s the opposite. Galatians chapters 3-4 and Romans 11 talk about how Gentiles and Jews become one through faith in Jesus. The wild branches that are grafted into the “olive tree” are Gentile believers and the natural branches that are cutoff are unbelieving Jews.

tommyboy

1 Peter 2:6-9 Jesus Christ is the stone of stumbling, the rock of offence. He was the One prophesied in Isaiah 8:14. And to this day Jews and non-Jews alike think they can work or earn their way to heaven instead of faith in Jesus, our Sacrifice, the Propitiation for our sins.

Jamie Mac

Hi Huldah, you are one of the most spiritual people I have met virtually , if you know what I mean, your comments are so insightful.

I think I saw in one of your comments you are a teacher. Is evolution on the menu where you teach and if so how do you handle this nonsense.

Huldah

Hi Jamie

I know what you mean.
Virtual people are cool, especially their avatars, Lol.
Thanks for your encouragement.

Fortunately, I’m a substitute so it’s easier for me to skip over that part and not face the issue of teaching it.

I have had a question or two in a textbook. I generally say something about those in the class who are Christians may disagree and emphasize it’s a textbook question.

In High School, the kids are independent so I don’t have to direct them much. I only teach science occasionally.

My area is very churchy so the politics protect basic religious doctrine more than most public school systems.

I did teach in the DC area, which is more secular, but I didn’t feel there was a foreceful push of evolution, just an underlying acceptance in science textbooks.

I actually know a brother who pioneered while getting his masters in science then pioneered while teaching science in a college. He’s a CO now. I have no idea how that works. He’s on the arrogant side so I guess he just did what he wanted and didn’t worry what they wanted him to teach.

I always thought it was strange that WT warns brothers not to go to college specifically because they will be convinced of evolution, then they send a CO around to let all the congregations know he pursued a science degree and college science career and did not leave the organisation. Hypocritical to say the least.

Jamie Mac

You may already know that most science books on evolution are full of lies anyway, a lot of the stuff has been disproved but there it is still in the text books. I watched an interesting video about a question posed to science students in the US. Here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC2L9yfxNEA

Huldah

They sort of sound like the elders in the Australian Commission video.
“Ummmmm….. well……. you see…..my programming says….”

Burt Reynolds

That sort of programming was very prevelant in our congregation and there were extremes in how people reacted. I recall two families in hysterics about bringing shame on Jehovah’s name because their child had head lice. They would not go out, the child was isolated, the house was disinfected….a complete withdrawal from society followed, but it was the sense of shaming Jehovahs name that was uppermost in their minds as though they were condemned and unclean. Oddly, one may think, the families followed a similar event pattern in that both families drew attention to themselves and the issue as an open secret. This seemed to alieviate their assumed difficulties by showing to the congregation how they were ensuring shame was not brought upon Jehovah’s name by the actions they were taking, but to do that, they had to tell the congregation what the problem was. Of course, the elders had to be informed first and they let it be known they had ‘confidential’ information, even though everyone knew about it. This is the same mentality that enables paedophiles within the watchtower to co-exist: it feeds on the need to be seen to be doing the right thing ( hiding the evidence) at the expense of all others interests, (victims and their pathway to help and justice) to protect the name. Suffering for what is right, and inflicting suffering too for the same cause but critically, making known that one is active in praising Jehovah. As we well know, that excuses all things, if they are done for God….except where Public condemnation says not, and then it is used to elevate the ‘defender’, as the besieged protector of the name, as we see at the Australian debacle. One steps outside of that social structure at their own peril. Victims of victims indeed!

Huldah

Well said Burt! The exact nefarious condition illustrated in detail.

I remember when I was waking up how I began to say, “Jehovah is a big boy, he can protect his own name.” Didn’t yet see that the cong was using Jehs name to control me not “protect” Jehovah.

Victims often become victimizers due to their victimness. A good example is the schoolyard bully who beats up on others because his dad beats up on him.
One may be able to excuse a kid like that one, but I hold these so called “victims of victims” to account. A truly noble person would not inflict suffering on others in any significant way or pervert justice. They would seek out what is right and take a stand for it under the most inhospitable circumstances.

Burt Reynolds

Yes one would hope that these victims would take a stand, and yes, if they do so knowingly, they should bear judgement for their action. Whom I am concerned for, are those that do this, believing the lies and behaviours thrust on them by the watchtower. The bible says, and rightly so, that some rejoice in wrongdoing, but the bible also goes deeply into the issues of blindness. It is this blindness that will cost many their lives, I presume because the blind do not see ( the truth) yet, if they will at all. They don’t have the wherewithal to see! The inference is that they will receive the revelation of truth, but by then, then it will entail a huge leap of faith from ignorance, to life. Somewhat more one might think that you or I will have to do, or any of those here. I hope that doesn’t sound too self righteous, but we do seem to be enjoying good insight into the scriptures. Nothing would have dissuaded me from the watchtower for years. They had to literally throw me out by their sour meanness for me to see that the love was not in them. The loss of love was the one thing that made me think. I still believed all the watchtower said. I did not think I was waking up, I just thought that Jehovah must be more merciful than his people. So I depended on him to let me know. Unfortunately, Jehovah obviously thought I needed a long lesson in patience first, hence it took me years to surface.

How much more difficult will it be for those shown favour by the watchtower ? Not because of what the watchtower has become by that time, but because like me all those years ago, they still believe that the watchtower preached the truth in spite of their wrongdoings? The stage is already set….they are ‘imperfect men’….they are not prophets, but ‘spirit lead’….they are fallible, but again, spirit lead….they (suffer) from ‘new light’! Thus for the present, the only mercy these ones taking the lead, know of, is the mercy of the watchtower….and that mercy is not based on love, but legalities!

Huldah

I mentioned before that I think Jehovah has a plan. It seems Jeh is using the org to bring people to a proper state if they are humble enough to allow it. Whatever test that comes won’t be about knowing a secret but about having the disposition as already developed in day to day service to God that moves you in the proper direction. Some will have developed this meekness faith and humble obedience others will have developed a spirit like the world, physical mindedness. The contrast is seen in the 12 spies of Israel. Ten were fleshly minded. They didn’t know what the test was, but all Israel failed it but for a few due mainly to their lack of faith and fleshly mindset.

What’s coming will test hearts not brains…Tin men not Scarecrows HaHa

Burt Reynolds

Yes, the twelve spies are a good example. I shall add them to my thinking! ( I wonder if a modern day example are all the ‘leaks’ coming from bethel etc?)

Huldah

Sounds about right. 2/12 Bethelites can see what’s happening. That percentage may actually be a bit high.

Cathii D’Anthonii

We get fooled into thinking Jehovah is not capable of taking care of his own name.

Burt Reynolds

Absolutely. So they assume responsibility for dishing out their own ‘spirit lead’ justice.

tommyboy

The Bible says that the only way to get right with God is to have your sins washed away by the blood of Jesus. Accept that you are a sinner and that you deserve punishment in hell for it, accept that Jesus died in YOUR place on the cross, put your faith and trust in Him for He is the only one who can save us and make us right with God. We cannot do it by ourselves or by putting faith in man. Scriptures clearly tell us that.

tommyboy

The “stone of stumbling” and “rock of offence” is Jesus Christ. The only way to be saved is through faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross. Many of the Jews in Jesus’ day DENIED Him.

tortas

It took a year or two for the US to invade Libya and Irag after they dropped the petrodollar; In your opinion Robert, how long do you think it will take to start war with China and Russia , seeing as they too have dropped the petrodollar.

In a few weeks China is going to start buying oil using the Yuan, which will be fully convertible to gold. So, Russia and Iran can export their oil and gas and by-pass the sanctions the US placed on them. If the Dollar starts tanking then no doubt other nations will drop the Dollar and go with the Yuan and the US economy will crash, big time.

Alex Henrique

Robert King: I would like to hear you discuss (in a video! please!) the subject about “stumbling blocks” when we serve God. I
do not know if you would agree with me about the following, , but since Jesus was a perfect man and
God-oriented man, he consciously provided the Jews reasons to
reject him, like as when he spoke about eating his flesh and rebuilding the
temple in three days. When he was resurrected, Jesus did not appear to the Jews again, but only to his disciples. The Jews were deceived into believing that Jesus’ disciples had stolen his body. And so Jehovah God treated the mankind of that time, so we expect at this time. As
long as Satan is not hurled down from heaven, there is no reason to
believe that Jehovah would change his methods in dealing with humans
(here is another profound and extended subject to explore, “Satan in
heaven” vs. “Satan on earth.” …
how does that change the terms of God’s relationship with humans, I
think there will be great changes.) The question that confronts me is how does
it affect today we can understand the truth and how it affects our relationship with God.

I hope I have managed to explain what I have in mind. I think there is much to be discussed and understood on this subject. I have spent many days reflecting on this. I
think this moves deeply with the words of Jesus repeated several times
(which strangely I do not understand WTS do not talk about) “everyone who has
more will be given, but he does not have but thinks to have, even what he
thinks will be taken away….

Huldah

I woke up thinking of this chapter of the Bible. Don’t know if it will strike you. I’m pasting the whole thing here for convenience. I saw it in a new light today.
Funny how the characteristics of the stumbling blocks match up with the ‘evil slave who beats his fellow slaves’
As Jesus said, ‘the angels of these lowly ones are before Jehovah’ vs. 10 to call attention to the evil deeds of these ‘stumbling blocks’
…the power drunk ‘evil slave’.

Read for yourself….

Matthew 18

18 In that hour the disciples came near to Jesus and said: “Who really is greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens?”+ 2 So calling a young child to him, he stood him in their midst 3 and said: “Truly I say to you, unless you turn around* and become as young children,+ you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens.+ 4 Therefore, whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one who is the greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens;+ 5 and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me also. 6 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.+

7 “Woe to the world because of the stumbling blocks! Of course, it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes! 8 If, then, your hand or your foot makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you.+ It is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire.+ 9 Also, if your eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Ge·hen′na.*+ 10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my Father who is in heaven.+ 11* ——

12 “What do you think? If a man has 100 sheep and one of them strays,+ will he not leave the 99 on the mountains and set out on a search for the one that is straying?+ 13 And if he finds it, I certainly tell you, he rejoices more over it than over the 99 that have not strayed. 14 Likewise, it is not a desirable thing to my* Father who is in heaven for even one of these little ones to perish.+

15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault* between you and him alone.+ If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.+ 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony* of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.+ 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations+ and as a tax collector.+

18 “Truly I say to you, whatever things you may bind on earth will be things already bound in heaven, and whatever things you may loosen on earth will be things already loosened in heaven. 19 Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven.+ 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name,+ there I am in their midst.”

21 Then Peter came and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not up to seven times, but up to 77 times.+

23 “That is why the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he started to settle them, a man was brought in who owed him 10,000 talents.* 25 But because he did not have the means to pay it back, his master ordered him and his wife and his children and all the things he owned to be sold and payment to be made.+ 26 So the slave fell down and did obeisance* to him, saying, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay back everything to you.’ 27 Moved with pity at this, the master of that slave let him off and canceled his debt.+ 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves, who owed him 100 de·nar′i·i,* and grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back whatever you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell down and began to beg him, saying, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ 30 However, he was not willing, but he went and had him thrown into prison until he could pay back what he owed. 31 When his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they became greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all the things that had happened. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him: ‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you when you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have shown mercy to your fellow slave as I showed mercy to you?’+ 34 With that his master, provoked to wrath, handed him over to the jailers until he repaid all that he owed. 35 My heavenly Father will also deal with you in the same way+ if each of you does not forgive your brother from your heart.”+

Alex Henrique

GB rendered useless the words of Jesus recorded in verses 15-17. They
lay down another scheme to treat “sin” within the congregation, that
the scheme encourage the sinner to reveal his sin to the elders of the
congregation. This has no parallel in the Bible. And it was precisely by thinking in these verses that I totally lost my faith in GB. If they can do this, what else would they be able to do?

Huldah

Yes I thought the same thing. Not scriptural.

Isaac of Coimbatore

If that is a case and Russia, China and Iran bypass the dollors and if it is payable by gold, I think even North Korea can also do business as usual inspite of scantions. Then I think US will get maddened and attack Russia and China. Also if Iran bypasses the scansions Israel will fire Iran an ally of Russia and north Korea, so this way the conflicts will arise. Am I right!!? I have one more doubt are these things GB is aware but why keeping quite? Is Isaiah:42:19 working?

Craig Knight

I’ve been watching this and it means big trouble for the dollar. Get out of cash as much as possible people!

GB and WTS are not at the center of our life, correct? So let’s think a bit out of the box. Regarding
what has happened in relation to North Korea, I think it is possible
that one of the aims of Satan is to make humanity looks to the United
Nations with good eyes. Comment on what you think about it.

Burt Reynolds

Well yes, the watchtower is the centre of my life, if not others, because it is inextricably linked with the bible and the truth. How the situation develops is an important part of the development of the prophesy, especially so in relation to the ‘disgusting thing’. That is the reason why the bible says to look out for it. As for Korea, I am not sure if it matters where our trials are to start, or who starts it. It can be a ‘comfort’ to know and prepare ourselves in whatever way we think fit, but as to the event itself, it is just speculation and so without value. Personally, I have seen enough of these events to know that this situation will not be left unaddressed, but as to the outcome, who knows? Would it help if I said yes! This is the beginning of the end! No. As to the UN, if there is anyone alive that can put their hand up and say they believe in any political ambition or institution, then they need to read their history again, right back to where Jeremiah said, (10:23) ‘it is not in a man, even to direct his own steps.’

Over the last five years, an unfortunate, unseemly battle has been taking place. The historic Diocese of South Carolina and most of its parishes have been engaged in a costly legal battle with the national
Episcopal Church in New York over ownership of some of the nation’s most historic properties and the right to worship as they choose. To many, this appears to be little more than a private argument and an
embarrassment to the Gospel witness.

In reality, this is a battle that should concern all people, because, at its core, it is a battle for Freedom. If the Diocese of South Carolina and the churches lose, and their property is taken away, no faith-based
organization in the state will be guaranteed its First Amendment right to the “free exercise of religion”.

This may seem alarmist, but it is not. This is specifically a battle for religious freedom, and, by consequence, a battle for freedom in general – the dearest of all American virtues.

In 1680, St. Philip’s Anglican Church was built by colonists often fleeing religious persecution. It is one
of the oldest churches in America and the oldest church in South Carolina. A century later, Article 38 of the 1778 State Constitution declared, “the churches, chapels, parsonages, glebes, and all other
property now belonging to any societies of the Church of England…. shall remain and be secured to them forever.”

Over the last five years, an
unfortunate, unseemly battle has been taking place. The historic Diocese
of South Carolina and most of its parishes have been engaged in a
costly legal battle with the national Episcopal Church in New York over
ownership of some of the nation’s most historic properties and the right
to worship as they choose. To many, this appears to be little more than
a private argument and an embarrassment to the Gospel witness.

In reality, this is a battle that
should concern all people, because, at its core, it is a battle for
Freedom. If the Diocese of South Carolina and the churches lose, and
their property is taken away, no faith-based organization in the state
will be guaranteed its First Amendment right to the “free exercise of
religion”.

Isaac of Coimbatore

This Thursday meeting’s Digging for Spiritual Gems is taken from Daniel:chapter:1-3:Poor Isaiah :42:19 JWs are not aware of its meaning especially for Dan:2:33:………….and its feet were partly of iron and partly of clay.
They are unaware of which is iron and which is clay. Many also don’t know why the WTS changed the interpretation for Iron and clay from politically divided world as per their Daniel Book into a new light in 2013 that Iron and Clay = Anglo American world power in NWT Bible Appendix B9.

Verse 34 says You looked on until a stone was cut out, not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of clay and crushed them.
They also don’t know that if the intention of the stone from the heaven is to break the image into pieces it could have hit any part of the image, but why the stone hits particularly the feet made of Iron and Clay?

I am going to answer if they give me a chance that Clay represents Democracy
And the stone hitting the Iron and clay part of the image is the timing of Christ’s kingdom establishment that is the collapse of the Anglo-American World power is the indication that Christ’s Kingdom has began to established on earth.

They are also unaware that why even after Nebuchadnezzar knows that Jehovah is the most high in chapter 2 still he places an immense image made of Gold and compelled everyone to worship including Shaʹdrach, Meʹshach, and A·bedʹne·go.

Even though people will know that Christ kingdom has established still the wild beast having horn of the lamb (in Rev:17-11) will compel everyone to make an image of the wild beast that has a death stroke and worship it.Which is actually the mark of the wild beast 666. In Chapter 3 of Dan: we see Shaʹdrach, Meʹshach, and A·bedʹne·go refuse to worship and they are thrown into burning fiery furnace. Similarly the anointed one refuse or compromise to the wild beast with lamb’s horn, all the faithful anointed ones will be killed.

Isaac of Coimbatore

I got the chance and said the answer. Nobody came and asked me anything as they know certain things what I say is scripturally correct. Only one elder said to me brother you do nice research. I said mmmm.

Let all credit go to Robert King.

The Raven

Holy cow! That tweet on the fashion show is crazy! Who the hell would be caught dead in those rags? Wow! Sinister and very ugly. !

Burt Reynolds

The fashion tweet! Did anyone pick up on the watchtower subliminals? The cash machines, the contribution boxes, the luxury apartments? I thought the best subliminal was the one in plain view, the riches to rags diarama, with everything exposed….well nearly everything.

tommyboy

Jehovah=YHWH+Adonai

The real name of God is YHWH, the four letters that make up His name found in Exodus 3:14. However, there is no correct pronunciation for the name of God because the letters are only consonants, no vowels. So we cannot tell what the “real” name of God is. However, in Exodus 3:13-14 it says, “Then Moses said to God, ‘Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I shall say to them, “The God of your fathers has sent me to you.” Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

When God says “I AM” he is speaking his name. In the Hebrew language that this verse was written in, the letters are yod, he, vav, he, from which we get YHWH.
There is no ‘J’ sound in Hebrew.

Yeah, you can use Jehovah as per English translations, but don’t claim that it is God’s REAL name and that you all are special because you use it all the time.

I call Him Father because according to Scriptures, all those who have accepted the finished work of Jesus on the cross and put their trust in Him becomes a child of God and only with the Holy Spirit can one call Him Father. 🙂 The book of Acts says that only the name of Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew) can one be saved.

Very nice brother…the kingdom songs are very comforting… but is there any way you could possibly put a roof over his head… anyone… If not, please hold Doc in your prayers…everyone here…I beg you…:(
Robert…if I’m out of order please let me know 🙂

Bklyn Kevin

Hello Daisy. I understand his situation I have a possible resolve concerning his problem in which I already discussed with him on the telephone however let’s not discuss this here on Robert site . You can look me up on face book under the name Kevin Flynn and we can discuss it through the messenger .

Daisy

Thanks B…I’m choked…and… very relieved to hear this info….as I’m sure all the brothers who’ve held Doc in their prayers will be.
Sorry don’t know how to do Facebook unless it pops out on me from nowhere & I still don’t know how it works as Im still counting on my fingers… but will try Messenger with little faith in myself to make contact.
Richard…Nigel.. Beverly, and I are on all standby to lend YOU support and I’m sure they’d all love to hear from you brother…patrihepburn@gmail.com
Can’t write more as I’m in shock at Roberts latest post!
Phew! But sooo exciting! Hallelu-jah!

I don’t think anyone claims any special relationship by using the name Jehovah or any part of the name. The point of using the name is to draw attention to it and it’s meaning. I agree with you about how God should be addressed. Jesus said that ‘you should pray this way…..our father….’ Jesus also addressed Jehovah using the term father, and yes, that is the sort of relationship we are advised to cultivate. I feel very comfortable to refer to Him as ‘father’. However, both father and Jehovah have their right and proper place in the discussion of the bible.

Arvid Fløysand

One day will be the last day of this wiced world…lets say it will be on a monday….then the next day will be the first day in Jehovah`s Kingdom :-)….it wont delay

No. It will definately be a Wednesday’s Arvid. You should know that! Woden!

Arvid Fløysand

hehehe….yes ofcourse….one day my friend,will be that “wednsday”…the wery first day and the first beautyful morning in Paradise…all pain,misery and evil…GONE
Ohhhh….what a wonderful day that will be 🙂

Jamie Mac

Woden you know it, Burt has been secretly following an Anglo Saxon God. Calamity upon Calamity. Thunor or later you’ll come round again 🙂

Huldah

Much love to any who reads this. I am limiting my reading and replies for now. Don’t be offended if I do not reply to any kind posts made by my friends here. My sympathies to those who are here to be built up, but are finding that a discouraging darkness has descended on our little group.

Robert,
I imagine this is very stressful for you.
You may have to do something decisive soon.

Daisy

Cheerio dear Huldah & hubby.
You mustn’t worry that we, your friends, will be offended if you do not reply to our kind posts.
May peace, mercy and love always be with you…Daisy

The Raven

Huldah, I think you chose a beautiful name and your spirit reflects it. You have a very deep curiosity about spiritual matters and IMO have shown quite a bit if insight into them. You have painstakingly delved many fathoms into matters which I personally found intriguing and I am always very happy to explore those deeper things with you. You are one of the most genuine folks I’ve met here and even when we came to different conclusions you graciously acknowledged that. It’s a breath of fresh air to converse with a soul who truly does want truth and always remains considerate and straightforward. I’ve learned a lot from our often weird conversations which went off on many tangents at times. They were lots of fun! I appreciate those qualities a great deal and I also value the quality of your comments over the quantity of some other’s any day. We both have one discussion still open and I’ll research it some more since it means a lot to me while you take a break from this. I want you to know I consider you, Thinking, Sally, Cathii, and any others here who still remain at the halls as friends just as those who still visit with me from my local one from time to time. I always will. I hope you and the others think of me as one as well. To all of you who still remain, I truly believe that it is your spirits which makes it God’s house. Always was. Don’t let the slings and arrows bother any of you. You have much sturdier armor than most. You earned it for each battle you endured and are still standing!

Thinking

I can assure you Raven…that each and every one of those you mentioned are very fond of you…there’s something about you!…and I’m sure you and sis Huldah have not finished with your spiritual friendship..

Xx

Bklyn Kevin

we must maintain the same attitude that Apostle Paul showed when under opposition .
Who will separate us from the love of the Christ? Will tribulation or distress or persecution or hunger or nakedness or danger or sword? Romans 8:35

2 Corinthians 4:8, 9 We are hard-pressed in every way, but not cramped beyond movement; we are perplexed, but not absolutely with no way out; we are persecuted, but not abandoned;+ we are knocked down, but not destroyed

Thank you , Kevin. Paul was also very good at offering a defense when need be. I looked up that link. I always explore everything you post. I remembered only parts of it from study but it certainly has much more meaning to us in full. Thanks for highlighting it in red but I meant to ask , how do you do that? I haven’t been able to.

10 Finally, go on acquiring power+ in the Lord and in the mightiness of his strength. 11 Put on the complete suit of armor+ from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts* of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle,*+ not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces+ in the heavenly places. 13 For this reason take up the complete suit of armor from God,+ so that you may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after you have accomplished everything, to stand firm.
14 Stand firm, therefore, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist,+ wearing the breastplate of righteousness,+ 15 and having your feet shod in readiness to declare the good news of peace.+ 16 Besides all of this, take up the large shield of faith,+ with which you will be able to extinguish all the wicked one’s burning arrows.*+ 17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation,+ and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word,+ 18 while with every form of prayer+ and supplication you carry on prayer on every occasion in spirit.+ And to that end stay awake, constantly making supplication in behalf of all the holy ones. 19 Pray also for me, that the words may be given to me when I open my mouth, so that I may be able to speak boldly in making known the sacred secret of the good news,+ 20 for which I am acting as an ambassador+ in chains, and that I may speak about it with boldness, as I ought to speak.

Bklyn Kevin

God judges all with justice (16, 17)
I have also seen this under the sun: In the place of justice there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there was wickedness. So I said in my heart: “The true God will judge both the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every activity and every action.”
Ecclesiastes 3:16-17.Read more> https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/ecclesiastes/3/#v21003016-v21003017