will or would

Yeah, in your above example it definitely has to be "would"; will could perhaps pass in colloquial speech, but would sounds better. On the bottom, they both sound okay to me, but technically it's probably "would." I was probably wrong up there having not given the rules of grammar enough thought.

AntonioMonday, April 28, 2003, 11:36 GMT

mjd:

True. Using the Simple Future would fit better. Because it wouldn´t give an impression of subjuctive.
Perhaps I´m just one of those Subjunctive-maniacs... :g

JimThursday, May 01, 2003, 03:49 GMT

Tom, every English teacher you "know would demand that learners use 'WOULD'" ... Wouldn't they also demand that it be "if I were taking an English test," rather than "if I was taking an English test,"?

Rules are bent and broken. You could get away with "will" in these examples but you'd be grammatically incorrect. As Tom says the rules of indirect speech demand that the word be "would".

If you're doing an English test and you just wrote "will", you'll get zero points and rightly so. However, if you have to write a paragraph saying which would be acceptable you should get points for noting that you could get away with "will" in an informal situaltion.

A learner could get away with "will" in casual speech without raising an eyebrow. Few would even pick up on the mistake. But my advice to ESL students would be to always try to follow the rules of indirect speech and use "would".

Perhaps Tom was right when he suggested that some are taking an American-centric view. However, I wouldn't say that in British English, indirect speech is probably used much more often. I think it's a case of the rules of indirect speech being more often broken in American English. I'm Aussie. In Australian English these rules are pretty well followed. Here's what I'd say.

"Mr X. said to tell you he would be here in a moment or two."
"He said to tell you he would be back."
"This way, please. Mr X. said to tell you he would be here shortly."
"Mr.X said to tell you he would be in later to speak with you."

"She said she loved me."
"He said he wasn't going."
"The man said he was a lawyer." &
"They said they would stay."

Antonio, perhaps you are "one of those Subjunctive-maniacs" ... This "would" is the past tense not the subjuctive.

AntonioFriday, May 02, 2003, 03:37 GMT

Jim:
ooops, you´re right mate :-) Not a subj.
I think what I meant is that I always prefer would to will in any case.

AdamWednesday, May 07, 2003, 10:40 GMT

"Would" is NOT past tense or future tense. it is "conditional." It is used when you are saying you are going to do something IF..........
e.g. "I WOULD only go to town with you IF you drive me there."
"IF you drive me to town i WOULD go swimming with you."

"Will" is "future". The sentence "will you come with me, please" is "future tense."

SimonWednesday, May 07, 2003, 10:58 GMT

Every day he would look at the picture of his wife and regret that he had left her for that cheap blonde tart he'd met in the pub.

He knew one day he would be rich.

NEITHER OF THESE IS CONDITIONAL.

JamWednesday, May 07, 2003, 11:11 GMT

I think the sentences themselves are weird. I am not a native English speaker, so I don't know if you really use "Sb said to tell sb sth" when you speak. Isn't it better to say

"Mr X asked me to tell you that he would be here in a minute."
or simply
"Mr X said he would be here in a minute." ?

AdamWednesday, May 07, 2003, 11:28 GMT

"He knew one day he would be rich."

That sentence is conditional. You use "would" when you say "on condition that" e.g. "You WOULD marry me IF i was prettier."

"He knew one day he WOULD be rich IF he won the lottery."

AdamWednesday, May 07, 2003, 11:32 GMT

future tense you use "will". e.g. "I will go to town tomorrow"

conditional tense you use "would". e.g. "IF you bought me a ring i WOULD marry you."

AntonioWednesday, May 07, 2003, 12:05 GMT

"He knew one day he would be rich." IS NOT condicional.

AdamWednesday, May 07, 2003, 14:26 GMT

He knew one day he would be rich IF he won the lottery.

Conditional.

SimonWednesday, May 07, 2003, 14:28 GMT

"I know one day I will be rich." Not conditional - I'm simply aware of it as an inevitability.

Someone writing my biography could then write "He knew one day he would be rich". Not conditional.

ArthurWednesday, May 07, 2003, 17:27 GMT

Thank you everyone who responded on my question!

There was a silly misprint in my previous post, it should be "attitude", not "altitude".

hp20:
I agree that both "would" and "will" are possible. But I don't think they're fully interchangeable. I guess the right choice (I mean that the most native speakers would prefer) depends on the context. I did not provide it, so I guess, that caused some discord between native speakers.
Well, I don't think that I overthink the grammar rules, as you suggested, if compare them with reality. I know they have their limits, perhaps, I just want to understand these limits better to avoid mistakes two kinds: being overcommitted to the formal grammar rules, or, on contrary, don't follow them when it's necessary. I know English tests, it is where you can't be overcommitted to the grammar rules for they have been designed to test the knowledge of grammar, but the real world is more than that.

Tom:
If you jumped to the conclusion that the words "to tell you" make "will" acceptable there, then, I'm afraid, you're wrong here. Take a look at this:
He said he ____ be here in 5 minutes.
He said to tell you he ____ be here in 5 minutes.
In both of them "will" can be used (at least in American English) if you put it in the proper context. As to British English, I'm not sure, but perhaps you can hear "He has said he will be here in 5 minutes." instead for the same context, because it's present time in mind of the speaker.

Jam:
I took these sentences from what had looked like native speaker texts, though I did not verify the each author background. Nevertheless, I'm positive that the expression "Sb said to tell sb sth" is used in spoken English quite often, though not as often as "he said (that) sb ...".

Adam:
The use of "would" to convey subjunctive mood is only one from a few possible. Simon pointed out two others -- repeated action in the past and sequence of tenses. I think there is even more, for example, "I tried to start the engine but it would not start." It does not look like as conditional, does it?

BTW, talking about your example "You WOULD marry me IF i was prettier."
Don't you think it would sound better with "were" instead of "was"?

JimThursday, May 08, 2003, 03:56 GMT

Arthur,

The tough question of what's passable and what's correct. I'd agree that there are more important things to worry about than grammar in the real world. However, to be fair to Tom there was no jumping to conclusions on his part he was just following the rules of indirect speech. "He has said he will be here in 5 minutes." isn't present time in mind of the speaker because he said it in the past.

You're right when you say "He said he will be here in 5 minutes." or "He said to tell you he will be here in 5 minutes." would be passable but grammatically incorrect. My advice would be to stick with the grammatically correct "He said he would be here in 5 minutes." or "He said to tell you he would be here in 5 minutes."

It's interesting that you suggest that "You would marry me if I was prettier." would sound better with "were" instead of "was". Both would be passable in everyday speech but only "You would marry me if I were prettier." is correct in a strict grammatical sense.

Adam,

Please read what everyone is writing. It's okay to be wrong sometimes. I'm not telling you to bow you head and weep but, trust me, what you're insisting on here is not correct.

"He knew one day he would be rich." is not conditional. Sure, "He knew one day he would be rich if he won the lottery." is conditional but this is a completely different sentence with a different meaning. Like Simon wrote "He knew one day he would be rich." is the past tense of "He knows one day he will be rich."

SimonThursday, May 08, 2003, 06:47 GMT

It wasn't a misprint, it was a mistake or a typo. Don't go blaming computers for things you do yourself :-)