Guys With No Game, Getting Laid

Today we have a guest post by “Knack”, a man who has been in the seduction business first as a student and now as a Venusian Arts instructor. He has some important things to say about the pickup artist community.

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There is a sickness in the community. There are guys teaching pickup, that don’t know their asses from a hole in the ground. The problem is most guys, who are new, can’t tell that a lot of these no game jokers have no game.

Why?

Because these “teachers” get results (for themselves) and get laid.

Many of you doubtless are confused by what is to many an “obvious” contradiction. But, I assure you there is no contradiction here. They are out there, and they are damaging guys badly. These gurus are trying to teach “systems” that don’t work for anyone but a very tiny percent of the population that are like them.

How can there be guys with no game getting laid you might ask? Easy. To women, they are HOT. Take a good look at many of the pickup “gurus” almost all of them are very attractive in their looks in regard to what women seek physically. I don’t need to name people, many of you know the personalities involved and have seen pictures.

Do you know what real game is? It is all the things you take with you if you were to transfer bodies with someone else. Would you get similar results? If you wouldn’t, guess what? You are using your looks as a crutch.

That’s one of the things that pisses me off about all these people coming out about “natural game”. 95% of “naturals” are just good looking dudes that girls want to fuck. They have always been good looking and women have been approaching them for sex and dating. Because they have always been approached they have been positively reinforced for sexual aggression (even though they rarely actually start out sexually aggressive). These men can’t teach you anything. Because they never learned anything. It was handed to them. You see, like girls, very good looking men rarely have had to develop an actual personality (the key to pickup).

I have seen men who are models and actors trying to “teach” what they do. Nearly every time they teach, there is one of two results:

They have a failure of epic scale.

They find someone as good looking as them to succeed.

What is bothering me the most is this is beginning to reach an epidemic scale in the community. Average to below average looking guys are getting suckered into a false bill of goods buying into this “natural game” fad. They are going to these good looking gurus and not actually really learning how to attract, develop rapport with, and keep a woman. They are being taught what the guru knows (which is how to stand and look attractive to women).

Part of why this is so damaging, is that most good looking naturals I know have shitty game. They fail shit test after shit test, and screw up the sarge in any of a thousand ways.

How can they get laid if they are screwing up and failing shit tests you ask?

Because in the monopoly game of sexuality, girls are the banker, and they cheat their asses off.

I have a friend. Ill call him Mr. A. Mr. A is a damn good looking guy. He has had women on the metro go crazy just by walking on and they scream “OMG! He’s so cute”. Now, that is not a normal reaction, and most girls don’t act that way, they only think it. He doesn’t have to work to find women who want to sleep with him. He doesn’t need to run attraction like the rest of us. Women will shit test Mr. A. I’ve watched him fail the SAME shit test over and over, only to have the women inform him of the answer to correctly answer the shit test, then give the test again. They will ask Mr. A over and over until he gives the correct answer because they want to mentally justify sleeping with someone they already want to fuck.

How can the average guy know if he is getting one of these frauds? EASY

Take a look at them physically and ask a few questions:

Does he have successful average and unattractive male students?

This is usually a fat no. Look for someone with LONG TERM success with their system. Not happy bootcampers coming off a bootcamp high.

Does it take them around an hour or so to pull?

This is usually a major indicator. In an hour or two, women know nothing about you other than they are physically attracted to you, and you might be able to pass a few mild shit tests after she prompts you with the answer.

Could he work as a model or actor?

Obvious enough on its own.

Do the women ever want to be around him after sex for an extended period of time?

When your game is solid, after sex (if you aren’t a complete lame ass in the sack) you can’t scrape the women off of you. If they aren’t interested in dating or seeing the guy again, it is an indication of a fraud.

When I was first learning, I had the fortune to learn from one very average looking guy and one guy that was butt ass ugly. My first bootcamp was with Mystery many years ago. I learned the first night from Hawaii (a very average looking short Asian), and Matador. I’ve seen Hawaii pull a girl off her guy (while they were making out) and sexually escalate. Clearly it wasn’t looks game. The next night I learned from Mystery and Lovedrop. Anyone that knows what Lovedrop looked like then (he’s very fit now though), will attest he was butt ugly (sorry LD you know I love ya). I remember looking at him: Sweaty as hell, skin glistening from the grease he was oozing, long gangly stringy slightly creepy greasy hair, pimples all over, and a fat belly. He was also surrounded by several happy giggly girls. There was no looks game here! This truly inspired me though. I thought “If this fat fuck can do it… I can do it!” and I did despite my physical shortcomings which handicapped me.

In fact I got so good, I teach for Mystery now, and was behind the scenes of the Pick Up Artist show training the contestants. I am older than many. I’m balding badly. I’m fat. And I have game. I know because I get laid, and I have no “natural game” crutches of prettyboy looks. If I took my skills and put it in another body, I’d probably do BETTER, because it would somehow be an improvement.

I seriously hope people keep this in mind before they decide to idolize the wrong people, or take a bootcamp with people of no skill.

I know this guy probably doesn’t want to make enemies, but it’d probably be helpful if we got some names of particular artists that give out shit advice. Anyone else have anyone that they would never in a million years take advice from?

If these guys are running bootcamps, i imagine it absolutely demolishing the self-esteem of the guys who are not naturally good looking.

Yes, naturals are quite poor at teaching this stuff, as most of what they do is unconscious. However, if you see a real natural in the field, they usually have interesting enough personalities as well. They neg, they banter, they frame control. Ok, they may not pass every shit test, but one of the great myths out there is that naturals only run boring interview game and slide along into the golden cave based on their looks. Naturals are usually fun, the ‘life of the party’. Also, they tend to lead interesting lives with lots of activities, and therefore have a lot of lifestyle game to run.

This is a stupid post. Granted, there are a lot of charlatans out there, and just because someone can get laid doesn’t mean they can teach, but there are a lot of major flaws in this post.

First, most naturals, even if it seems like they’re getting laid off of looks, have super tight game, and continue getting laid well into their 30s and 40s based on the natural skills the developed when they were young and good looking despite huge beer guts.

Second, pulling in an hour is not totally ridiculous. Women want sex, and they want to get fucked by a guy who knows what he’s doing and conveys sexuality. Just because you’re not going to pull that quickly using Mystery Method, doesn’t mean that you can’t pull quickly even as an ugly dude. Look at Captain Jack, is he good looking? Is Brad P good looking? He’s at least no more good looking than Mystery.

Third, like Lovedrop, many instructors started out ugly but improved their looks over the course of their career as a result of developing more confidence in their ability to improve themselves. That doesn’t mean that they couldn’t get laid when they were ugly.

Pup is using her blackberry but will check the guy out on her computer after work. Thanks, PA and smoothvirus.

JR, the truth is that pupu finds using the third person helps her get her point across more effectively. People would be less willing to listen to her in the first person because she makes too many grammatical mistakes.

This is a lot of vague innuendo. It would be nice to know exactly who he is talking about.

1. The only major company I know of who claims to teach a more natural style of game is RSD, and there Tyler and Jeffy are downright ugly, Ryan, Hoobie and Alex are small and average, and only Ozzie and Tim could really be classified as good looking, and their stories (and old pictures) don’t match up with the always good with women plotline.

(The only specific guy I can think of who this might apply to is Paul Janka, and, yes, some of his advice is seriously off.)

2. A good number of the naturals I know, while still generally good looking, spent years learning by trial and error and failed spectacularly at the beginning. They often aren’t very good at setting out a programme with you, but if they do see you do something wrong, they can often quickly point it out to you.

3. Only guys in the top 5% of looks can dispense with game. Those merely in the to 10% get massively less attention. See here.

Lovedrop is a good example of a dude who looks like shit but runs good game. Here’s an video of the old Lovedrop:

He looks a bit better nowadays, but there’s only so much you can do with what his got. The fact that he can’t depend on his looks has made him really good at explaining the dynamics of social interactions — his audio cds that shipped with one of Mystery’s products are very, very good.

I agree with Thursday. The Gunwitch Method for example is as natural or direct as you can get. He’s the ugliest PUA I’ve seen and he’s helped ugly, fat guys get laid with direct, natural day game. Take a look at the guy:

Agreed on much of that. Mystery, whatever the merits of his methods ( I am not saying they are bad or good, being as I have not studied them in depth, despite having read Strauss’s The Game), is still a 6’5″ thin man with model cheekbones.

I ntoiced early on in the game, Strauss mentions that Mystery forces him to 1) shave his balding head; 2) buy a new wardrobe; and 3) get a tan. Strauss also mentions starting to take better care of his body.

Although Strauss belatedly makes mention of this same epiphany later in his book, he gives it short shrift, but I noticed right away: with a good haircut, nice clothes, and an overall better appearance, your odds with women improve dramatically. So if a guru’s first advice to you is to buy GQ, hit the gym, and get a haircut from a good salon….well, its not really game, its just putting your best foot forward.

BTW, I have been saddened at how poor Strauss’s writing is in The Game. After all the hype, I thought it would be good. Instead, it’s scattershot, skipping over deliciously juicy parts for banal conversations, avoiding all but basic techniques in its explanations, and generally shows a lack of author insight. I was going to buy Emergency!, but after this I will lay off him.

Isn’t he whole idea that women are NOT primarily attracted to looks?!??!!?

That’s what we’ve been hearing this entire time, that it isn’t looks, it’s dominance, bla bla, that guys are the ones attracted to looks, not girls, bla bla. Wasn’t this huge elaborate theoretical superstructure developed to explain why women evolved to not care too much about looks and how that has deep roots in evolutionary history, etc, etc.

Now we learn it’s about looks after all. Okay, so lets see if I get this new line…..

Game is for people who aren’t good looking, the good looking don’t need Game. Is this the new line?

This contradicts so much that’s been written on this site and elsewhere in the game community it takes my breath away. This is the problem with the game community – 80% of the material out there is a mass of contradictory advice with no coherent organizing principle. Do this, no do the opposite, etc, etc. Roughly half of what roissy writes is in subtle contradiction to the other half of what he writes, and it’s even worse elsewhere.

In fact, though, I would say the above post is completely BUNK, from my personal experience. Good looking guys – no matter how good looking – CANNOT get hot girls without decent game. I’ve seen it a million times. They can get an “interview”, they get looks and attention and “invitations” to come over, but the interest dies after minutes if the guy doesn’t have tight game. I have a few very good looking friends with no game who can’t pass the 7 barrier.

Plus, WHICH PUA instructors is this guy talking about? As far as I can see, they range from ugly to at best average – where are the model ones?

Knack has a point but I think he is overstating the attractiveness factor.

In my salad days I was pretty good looking, I am not going to make any conjectures about now. But suffice it to say that I had lots of women come up to me when drunk and tell me that they had wanted to talk to me forever.

However, I also had a friend who was definitely better looking than I was and he was horrible with women. I would always council him just to say nothing at all to any question so that the girl could imprint whatever personality she wanted on him.

And his horribleness was not for lack of aggression. It was for constantly saying the douchiest / most racist / asshole things imaginable. So yes, you can screw yourself no matter how good looking you are.

Conversely, even if you are good looking you have to have a decent personality to attract the highest quality chicks.

That having been said I had another friend, who is now a very successful entrepreneur, who was pretty damn fat and it pains me to say, but ugly as well. However, his personality was the shit. Girls loved him. Guys loved him. He did well.

However, what this guy had was inborn. Maybe you can teach it. I haven’t seen professional lessons on this stuff, but I am guessing a lot of it was genetics. He was quick witted and nothing got underneath his skin. He was also a killer business negotiator. I mean killer.

So on the one hand you have genes for looking good and on the other genes for gregariousness and wildly irrational self-confidence.

I often wonder about this. I also wonder about the age curve. I see a lot of teenagers getting into it when they suck, just out of high school, then they start pulling off “natural” stuff in a bar is when they are say 21-23 hitting on 18 year olds. This is appropriate for the age group, you can get away with almost anything. In some cases flat out sexual harassment. Try to pull these stunts when your over 30 though. Its a simple truth that these guys have no idea how much social power the single 20-25 year old, white guy can have with the bar scene. It’s the time of your life when your expected to run around grabbing teenage girls.

I am not saying its all shit, or worthless. Just that results are being skewed by dynamics outside of most peoples direct control. This ends up being correlated with skill. learn skills and surf the curve.

In case anyone cares for context for my posts, as I’ve mentioned many times, I’m flat out ugly. I suspect the Roissy’s strengths are my weaknesses, and mine are his. I’m not good at approach and I rarely even try picking up at bars.

I’ve got a physical sensuality that is voodoo hypnotic and grabs a girl by her ovaries and implants seeds of internal destruction. I grow on women like a fungus. I’m an ugly bad infection with a fast incubation time.

Basically game is….you must be a bit more manly, assertive, and confident in your interactions with women. It won’t make you a total stud if you are deficient in other areas, but it is after all the ONE thing in the suite of things women find attractive about a man that is under your control to change.

It may be an unwelcome truth to most, but most of what makes you attractive to women is inborn and cannot be taught, EVEN personality wise.

You might get a few more hotties and close a few more deals, but ultimately you’re dealt the hand nature gave you, personality wise as well, and the idea that losers will suddenly be banging 8s, or even 7s for that matter, with “tight game”, is a sad fantasy.

“This contradicts so much that’s been written on this site and elsewhere in the game community it takes my breath away. This is the problem with the game community – 80% of the material out there is a mass of contradictory advice with no coherent organizing principle. Do this, no do the opposite, etc, etc. Roughly half of what roissy writes is in subtle contradiction to the other half of what he writes, and it’s even worse elsewhere.

In fact, though, I would say the above post is completely BUNK, from my personal experience. Good looking guys – no matter how good looking – CANNOT get hot girls without decent game. I’ve seen it a million times. They can get an “interview”, they get looks and attention and “invitations” to come over, but the interest dies after minutes if the guy doesn’t have tight game. I have a few very good looking friends with no game who can’t pass the 7 barrier.”

Two fine paragraphs that I second most heartily.

“You are either average in looks then or you do something that seriously offends girls.”

No that’s not it.Like I said all kinds of women go out of their way to make their interest in me known.(Oh,the stories I could tell!) It’s the segue into the sack that’s the problem.

You will not like Emergency. In fact, I think it’s a joke. He takes on the most bizarre paranoid, OMG Bush is turning us into Nazi Germany, I need to leave the USA, persona. (gasp, can you believe America started tightening immigration laws after 9-11, like Hitler!) It’s grating to me and would probably only appeal to idiotic BDS sufferers.

Anyway, naturals have more game than you would know because they can walk away at any time. They’ll tell a girl no for no reason. Good looking naturals might not know proper escalation while charming, not exactly good looking, naturals can still say things that you would never dream of saying. But yeah, don’t listen to them for any advice because it won’t work for you.

Like the good looking natural, a charming, but not attractive, natural friend has successfully started conversations with lines that would normally blowout any conversation. You can’t do that.

John: Actually that is NOT what my article states. Tight game will get those girls. Very good looking “naturals” for example never have to actually learn for example the attract phase of the sarge. The women are already attracted. There are serious holes in most of thier games.

How do I know this? I used to be one of those guys. Then I got older… fatter… balder…

Guess what? Women were much much harder to tap. I already had a personality, but I didnt know what to display when or even how. I had the pieces, but couldnt put together the puzzle.

Surprized don’t hear more about female stalkers of the celebs. They must not be getting the kind of action you would think since I think would have to hire some ninja females to be the beatdown squad for woman who just wouldn’t go away.

“Does he have successful average and unattractive male students?
Does it take them around an hour or so to pull?
Could he work as a model or actor?
Do the women ever want to be around him after sex for an extended period of time?”

Fair questions, but you make it seem like there are a lot of poseurs getting rich from teaching game, but we know this not to be the case. They may be able to trick a few guys with a workshop or shitty ebook here but once word gets out they go out of business.

Unless you can name names, this is just a case of trying to identify a problem where you later say you have the “solution.” Nothing wrong with that, but you don’t offer any data or proof of the severity of bad game instructors. Even an anecdote about a guy who got tricked by a bad instructor would have strengthened your argument.

This article is total bullshit. I can’t destroy the argument with one name:

David X

I quote Style:

“David X was quite possibly the ugliest PUA I’d ever meet. He made Ross Jeffries look like a Calvin Klein underwear model. He was immense, balding, and toadlike. , with warts covering his face and the voice of a hundred thousand cigarette packs”

And David X considers his style to be Natural game. Furthermore he thinks that routine based methods aren’t effective and has been heavily critical of them. David X is successful with women.

I never liked the idea of natural game but I don’t think its necessarily impossible to be a natural. I just didn’t like the fact that naturals are moralistic about pickup. This article though made me sympathize with naturals.

If you go to the batting cages every single night for years- and you swing for hours on end- you will dramatically improve your swing, and your ability with a bat.

If a professional bat man teaches- gives a few pointers and a road map- you may improve quicker and better than the person that just picks up a bat and hacks away.

Even with a massive amount of practice you will never become a pro- but you will be better than most of the world at swinging a bat.

Same with game; The more women you talk to, fuck, seduce, flirt with, and even get rejected with and blown out- the better you will become with women in general.

After doing this for years- when you encounter a woman- she won’t be able to describe what is different about you.
but, you will be Unique.

Because it has become my hobby [to be good] with women- i will become much better at social interactions with women then most other men on the planet.

Some men can swing a bat naturally- even without practice they may be able to see the ball clearer- or they may be able to hit the ball further- same as naturals with women- but because of my dedication- i will learn something new.

Most men won’t do this. Most men don’t have passion for any hobby. Most men won’t dedicate time to learn something (anything) new.

Game is a skill like any other- it can be practiced- refined- improved upon.

1. A lot of master pick up artists are actually sleeping with a lot of ugly chicks. Sinn is apparently bad for this. There is a review of one of his bootcamps where he goes home with a 5 and I have sources that tell me that isn’t unusual. Jeffy admits that he mostly gets 6s and 7s.

2. A lot of the gurus are close to being outright sociopaths. From my sources, the portrait of Tyler Durden in The Game was pretty accurate and a number of people in his company are apparently of similar stuff. I’d also advise people to take a look at his articles in The Tyler Digest. Brilliant, but the work of someone I really don’t want to get to know. The old Mystery Method company apparently had some similar people, with Savoy apparently cleaning house a bit once Mystery left.

Roosh: No not really a LOT of guys but some. And they are gaining momentum. Not many of the established guys, but the “up and commers”

I disagree that people are aware enough to know bad game in the beginning. They will trick alot of guys. Having taught many guys, few in bootcamps have much self esteem and idolize the guru (much more than is healthy). They want to believe anything they are told (even if it is not true).

I dont even think its a situation the “gurus” are trying to trick them. I know a few of these types. The honestly think their results are from tight game.

You are right though, I should have added a real life example of the damage. Maybe for a follow up article.

Mystery, being the narcissist he is, gained a lot of sociopathic followers. He was so self-absorbed that they easily manipulated him into giving them what they wanted.

Ross Jeffries, another sociopath, hated Mystery with a passion, partially for moving in on his territory, and partially because Mystery was everything Jeffries was not: young, handsome, and with a non-hypnotising form of game.

Men are terrfied of being shot down (as Roissy himself has mentioned, he still is). Once a man fights that, and realizes that talking to a woman=teasing her and making her live up to him, he’s golden. He’s ahead of everyone but sociopaths, celebrities, and Don Juans.

[i]And his horribleness was not for lack of aggression. It was for constantly saying the douchiest / most racist / asshole things imaginable. So yes, you can screw yourself no matter how good looking you are.[/i]

@Karl Smith, Ovid

Right. And I agree with what Ovid’s been saying too. I posted on the other thread. I get come-ons and experiences getting hit on constantly like other guys can’t imagine…and I don’t act nervous or “beta” at all. I still can’t close the deal. Girls approach me and stop talking to me after a few minutes. I know it’s because I say some stuff they find unappealing or whatever. Some have left me with horrified looks on their faces after stuff I’ve said. But the point is the original post here is total bunk. It doesn’t matter how good looking you are…you can still suck at landing hot girls. Yes, you can even be confident and good-looking and still suck at it.

This is also why I complained on the other thread about the easy identification of game with “just be dominant, confident,” etc. That’s just not enough and can even be misleading. If you don’t believe what I say about myself, whatever. But try to imagine if a confident, dominant Russian man like Putin would have success in an American bar. Most likely girls would be put off by that. On the other hand, they go for all kinds of indy fag dorks with “game.” I’m just trying to find out what the hell game is. I’ve been recommended the “gunwitch” method. Obviously it’s a good idea not to act like a queer, and being manly is what you should be anyway, but that’s not identical with “game.”

Your charming personality and razor sharp Game wont make you look any better with your shirt off.

That’s not to say Game isn’t of primary importance, but take two PUAs running the same tight Game, sarging the same HB, and the guy who’s nailing her that night is the one who spent more time in the gym.

Game = great
Game + Looks = greater

I’m not disagreeing with Knack’s article, but I’ll take it with a grain of salt coming from a “fat guy”. It’s like hating on the guys from hotchickswithdouchebags.com. Our natural inclination will always be to AMOG an obviously physically superior male by trying to disqualify him from sexual selection. That’s why men perpetuate the idea that if a guy is ‘too good looking’ he’s presumed to be gay. If you can disqualify super hot men from sexual selection with a social convention half your work is already done.

I think rather than worry about good looking charlatans teaching “one trick game”, we ought to be concerned about perpetuating the idea that women don’t place as high a premium on a man’s looks. This is the real disservice. Again, not to discount the importance of Game, but to emphasize that it can’t be a total substitute for some degree of physical attractiveness. Half the reason lifetime AFCs seek out a guru is because they want a magic formula that’ll allow them to hook up with the hottest women despite being obese.

Knack doesn’t have to give names to get his point across. Use your head when assessing which guys to follow.

His point is so simple but so true. When a man is handicapped in some certain way, he has to develop other qualities to become better at pick-up (and many other endeavors in life). Ugly girls and ugly guys have long had to rely on personality for success with the opposite sex. Good looking people don’t need that crutch. The things that make them good at picking up women aren’t the same things that will make you (an average looking guy) good at picking up women.

This brings up a simple solution: choose a PUA guru who most matches your profile of looks, personality, sense of humor etc.

“And as you say, this is the internets. You can’t stick your dick into it.”

You never know. Goodwill does not expire. As we all know every byte online (unless it is machine generated gibberish) is produced by a real person offline. A digital persona can turn into flesh-and-blood in a heart beat. Yes, just a heart beat😉

Assman: You are a dumbass. I didnt say ugly guys cant get laid. Learn to read.

They article is about very good looking guys claiming “natural game”

Thursday:

I agree and disagree with you.

There are guys like Sinn that are notorious for bagging average chicks to raise thier numbers.

On the other hand there are a few gurus that look for compatability as more vital. In the cases you discuss I agree, but I wouldnt be that dismissive of everyone. Take a look at how long they are with the women. One nighters, vs relationships. They also use different skill sets.

I wouldnt say alot of pickup guys are sociopaths…. but many are extreme egoists to the point of severe obnoxiousness.

PA: You are leaving a lot out. Emotional connection for example (unless its a looks fools mate pull) is vital for example.

Do you know what real game is? It is all the things you take with you if you were to transfer bodies with someone else. Would you get similar results? If you wouldn’t, guess what? You are using your looks as a crutch.

I sort of agree, but not totally. Because I consider my dedication to my looks to be part of my game, and if I was transferred to a fat, balding body the very first thing I’d so is shave my head, hit the gym and buy myself an awesome wardrobe to improve my looks to the best of my ability.

“And as you say, this is the internets. You can’t stick your dick into it.”

You never know. Goodwill does not expire. As we all know every byte online (unless it is machine generated gibberish) is produced by a real person offline. A digital persona can turn into flesh-and-blood in a heart beat. Yes, just a heart beat

Ya, I’ve fucked a few blog chicks, who came to visit my town and called me up – back in the day. I’ll concede that people travel.

If you’ll concede that 99% of the internet is nothing but. No real space in it – only virtual space.

You can’t stick your dick into it. It’s not a relationship until you fuck. It’s not real if its not meat space.

Total respect for you- reading some of your posts on SS were nothing short of illuminating!

i disagree with your post on looks in some ways.
Sadly an extremely ugly man has to fight so many uphill battles- it becomes so very easy to give up.

Here is my point on average looking men though.
i believe i am average looking-a little rough looking- i am not classically handsome in any aspect.
But, i believe my exotic features give me character- i look a bit unique because i am a mutt.

i have a great looking friend- and sometimes i score certain girls that he cannot- he scores more women overall, but there are certain times when women want me more than they want him.

i read in many different places that women are attracted to men that look like their fathers- what if her father was ugly?

a few months back i was fucking this blonde hottie for a few months- she would worship my dick in insane ways- i couldn’t really get why she wanted me so crazy badly- then she showed my pics of her dad- and the fucker looked like ME!

I’m good-looking, no, seriously, I’m drop-dead stunningly beautiful. Example: a couple of weeks ago I was at a 30s-something meetup.com cocktails mixer in a ritzy part of Seattle, with a nice mix of some pretty attractive mid-30s women. Out of the blue, comes “wow, you look like you belong in a boy-band”, which segued from a reference to N’Sync.

Also, I have a phenomenal sense of personal fashion, and am maybe about 7 percent body-fat. V-shaped body and six-pack bas. Now, I’m only around 140 lbs, and am a bit on the short-side, 5’6-5’7, but my build makes me look taller. I’m 35 and when I approach 21 year olds they act like they would toward a 25 year old guy who looks like Justin Timberlake.

Up until I seriously began working on Game, I couldn’t do shit with women. Lost my virginity at 21, one night thing. Didn’t touch a woman again until I was almost 27, probably didnt even have a date in those 6+ years. So, on, looks, by themselves do NOT get women, because some men will fail the shit tests dozens of times, eventually sending the women packing. Looking back, I can see now that some women would spend a couple of hours attempting to elicit even a smidgen of sexual leadership, without me managing even a glimmer.

So, what’s going on? Well, it seems that very young MALES, even under the age of two select males for leadership within all-male group. Yes, regardless of what men say about not being able to judge other males’ looks, men and boys absolutely know what’s “good looking”. So, looks *do* matter when boys begin socializing normally in their early years and when they do not have an extreme personality, i.e. very low extraversion, very low assertiveness, etc. So men who are good-looking, have a relatively average personality, and develop in a normal social situation naturally become natural alphas by being selected by other males, beginning at a very early age (18-20 months).

Back to my case. I have moderately low assertiveness, combined with very high neuroticism, and a plus 3 SD IQ, where lots of girls are simply not interesting. On the plus side, I have a stratospheric extraversion and openness to new ideas/experience, meaning I picked this stuff up pretty quickly. My mother was a weird mix of very conservative evangelical, no sex before marriage or you’re going to hell, combined with a lot of hippy-ish, equality of the sexes college experience. This combination turned me into a complete basket-case when dealing, sexually, with women.

So, no, looks, by themselves, might get you laid by a very amenable woman, but they certainly cannot make up for lack of game. Knack has a point but he is probably overplaying his hand.

Sometimes I see very good looking men with average women- maybe even slightly ugly looking women.
These good looking men have zero ZERO game- and these average or below average women have a very high level of self esteem and entitlement – they aggressively pursue their prey- their target.

They rope in these great looking men that are socially awkward. They make it easy for the men because they run everything- and the men take it because they don’t know how to relate women.

This at times makes me a little angry- I almost want to tell these men they could do so SO much better.
But, I guess I should be grateful he is off of the market with this chick I wouldn’t even hit on.

Keep in mind these are men that grew accustomed to women hitting on them- but they didn’t know how to close the deal- or they couldn’t deal with the shit tests and the games with the prettier ones.

I saw a couple like this on the subway last week- good looking dude (The man was a solid 7 the chick was a 4).
6’3 suited up great hair and his girl was a 5’11 chick that was a homely 4 at best- she didn’t even bother to do her hair or wear a dress- she was wearing dumpy clothes.
You could see the love, the lust in her eyes- she couldn’t keep her hands or his eyes off of him- I saw him starting at a hot 6 that was sitting down- and the 6 stole a few glances his way.

The 6 that was dressed beautifully was probably wondering WTF he was doing with that 4!
So was I.

My mother was a weird mix of very conservative evangelical, no sex before marriage or you’re going to hell, combined with a lot of hippy-ish, equality of the sexes college experience. This combination turned me into a complete basket-case when dealing, sexually, with women.

Sounds a lot like me. I’m quite good looking too (though not spectacular) and for the longest time I was terrible with women. Living at the crossroads of the socon and SWPL ideologies, you can pick up the worst ideas about women from both. Combine that with some neuroticism and low assertiveness and you are done.

knack, when i read your post i immediately thought of paul janka. and you’re right about guys like janka, but i wonder if he’s just selling a different product than you are.

janka seems to be aimed at guys can get girls, guys who date, but want to change the sort of relationships they have with women. in other words, guys who are tired of taking girls out to dinner and waiting two-to-three dates to get laid. a guy who has trouble just getting a girl to go out to dinner with him in the first place might not do so well under his system.

personally, i can’t see paying that sort of money for any seduction product. a gym membership and some time spent online should be enough to get most guys started. that being said, there’s probably enough room for all sorts of approaches. guys just need to take an honest appraisal of themselves before deciding which way to go.
BTW I love your blog!

Thursday said – lot of master pick up artists are actually sleeping with a lot of ugly chicks. Sinn is apparently bad for this. There is a review of one of his bootcamps where he goes home with a 5 and I have sources that tell me that isn’t unusual. Jeffy admits that he mostly gets 6s and 7s.

I understood 5’s to be average and 6 – 7’s to be slightly better than average. Why call them ugly? I’m confused.

“Assman: You are a dumbass. I didnt say ugly guys cant get laid. Learn to read. ”

Wow elegant comeback.

Your strongly implied argument is that ugly guys using natural game can’t get laid. Let me explain why I thought you implied that. Readers can judge for themselves based on the following quotes:

“These gurus are trying to teach “systems” that don’t work for anyone but a very tiny percent of the population that are like them”
“Average to below average looking guys are getting suckered into a false bill of goods buying into this “natural game” fad.”

You strongly imply that natural game is based on looks and is not transferable to ugly people.

I rebutted as follows:

1) David X is ugly
2) He is a NATURAL

Thus ugly, naturals can get laid and be successful with women. David X is the ugly proof. This implies that there is such a thing as natural game, it does work and it is transferable.

People who are “naturals” at anything are usually not the best teachers. The best teachers are usually those who were good at something, but learned how to be very good through years of hard work and training. If anybody watches the show “The Ultimate Fighter,” there is a perfect example of this on there:

Rampage Jackson is a “natural” fighter who achieved a high level of success with his incredible natural ability and unorthodox style. It is obvious to anybody who watches that Rampage is a terrible coach and all of his fighters have lost so far.

Rashad Evans on the other hand, is talented but not overly so (was a D1 wrestler, but only 48-34 collegiate record) who has studied fighting in a much more disciplined manner and is obviously the more intelligent guy. He’s obviously the better coach and it shows as his fighters have won every fight against Rampage’s, despite that they picked teams from the same initial pool of guys.

Pickup is the same way. The Men’s Health cover model guys probably aren’t going to be able to tell you too much about how to pick up chicks. It’s the decent-looking but decidedly average guy who has been able to go from getting with 4s and 5s to getting with 8s who can teach you something.

To women, they are HOT. Take a good look at many of the pickup “gurus” almost all of them are very attractive in their looks in regard to what women seek physically.

95% of “naturals” are just good looking dudes that girls want to fuck. They have always been good looking and women have been approaching them for sex and dating.

This following is pure, fucking genius of the “Pearls Before Swine” variety sure to angrily arouse charlatans wishing to protect their steady income of seminar cash picked from the wallets of AFC’s usually used to delivering money-treats to bitches, not gurus.

Pure fucking Genius:

Do you know what real game is? It is all the things you take with you if you were to transfer bodies with someone else. Would you get similar results? If you wouldn’t, guess what? You are using your looks as a crutch.

Because in the monopoly game of sexuality, girls are the banker, and they cheat their asses off…They will ask Mr. A over and over until he gives the correct answer because they want to mentally justify sleeping with someone they ALREADY want to fuck

Thursday: “Ah, the classic six magnet. If you are a good looking guy who isn’t a complete social retard, you will be _swarmed_ by 6s.”

That can be a big hindrance to developing game. As a good look guy, I naturally game the 6s who hit on me/give IOIs, but it can be hard to transfer that attitude to dealing with the 8s-10s who I find truly stunning. You end up sticking with 6s cause they’re there and eager to please.

I concur with Pupu — while the top three images returned for a basic Google imagesearch are supposedly Roissy, I’d like to see a recent picture of the fellow.

The “balding badly” and “fat” statements have me ridiculously, morbidly curious, though not so much the “older than most”. I will accept this as my shallow female/human nature betraying my ability to be subjective.

“This is a retarded post. You use your advantages when you have them. Not using your own advantages when it comes to seductive is just plain stupid.”

jesus fuck. knack isn’t saying you shouldn’t use your God-given (or as i prefer: natural selection-given) abilities and characteristics. if you’re a good looking guy, unless you have “negative game”, there may not be a point in learning the venusian arts. your time could be spent on other things while still filling your cup of sexual desire to the brim.

but if you don’t have those natural characteristics, by all means learn them and learn them fast. yes, get in where you fit in. if you’re ugly or fat, it’s easier to get game than to get handsome and slim.

knack’s post is so common sensical and very intuitive. i’m surprised so many are having problems grasping it.

Today we have a guest post by “Knack”, a man who has been in the seduction business first as a student and now as a Venusian Arts instructor. He has some important things to say about the pickup artist community.

I was pretty sure this wasn’t there when I read the post the first time around about an hour ago, but either way I made a mistake. Sorry, Roissy.

IMO:
Because after banging a few nine or tens, all lesser women tend to become ugly. As a gentleman’s club owner, see a lot of talent… every now and then a 10 comes in and auditions…
and while she has the look, she is scared shitless.. and yet very beautiful. But she will make a ton of cash, without even droping her panties.

On the other hand, the plain janes have to pull out all the stops just to pay their bills, and score their dope. Which is why 90% of dancers transit into prostitution.

Janes hate (9-10) beautiful women, and it always cracks me up to see em stagekissing. If you understand whats going on, You really can feel the hatred radiating from the 678s while lipl-ocked and grinding against them. That is, if your not overwhelmed by the fleshy light show.

In short, men call women ugly if there too far from perfection… I think mostly because most men find themselves unable to get out of 678 land.

Please see my comment as to *why* a lot of good-looking guys end up exuding alphaness. A lot of men here, unquestionably, know really good-looking men, like myself, who have done absolutely jack-squat with women. So they see some good-looking guys doing well and others doing poorly, so they conclude that looks mean nothing. Also, as good-looking as I am, I still have to make the approach, however, circuitous, so looks will almost never get women approaching you.

The few men I’ve known who get approached by women have staggeringly ballsy attitudes. They are also tall, which, I suspect, is the only real primal physical trait to which women respond.

Thus ugly, naturals can get laid and be successful with women. David X is the ugly proof. This implies that there is such a thing as natural game, it does work and it is transferable.

QED

David X facts:

David X was not always fat and old.
David X states he got laid a lot in his youth.
David X developed confidence from early conquests
David X brought that specific ‘inner game’ to targets.
David X is from a different generation.
David X targeted a different age of female.
David X was twice happily married, so retired
David X had perhaps, the fewest videos ever.
David X has no in-field footage.

In the end, all we really have as ‘proof’ of his actual success, is his word.

If David X has authentic footage gaming the desired targets we seek – 2009 vintage 17-28 year old pussy – I want a link.

BTW, I have been saddened at how poor Strauss’s writing is in The Game. After all the hype, I thought it would be good. Instead, it’s scattershot, skipping over deliciously juicy parts for banal conversations, avoiding all but basic techniques in its explanations, and generally shows a lack of author insight. I was going to buy Emergency!, but after this I will lay off him.

The Game wasn’t a “how-to” on pick-up. It was more of an expose of the PU community. For a “how-to” from Style “Rules of the Game” is better.

Asher: Id have to see you in Field. My guess is that as you have said you have nerosis issues (previous post) that has kept you from pulling any kind of trigger, thus getting the postive reinforcment from women for it.

Re-read my post. Good looking men when they pull triggers are often rewarded for it by women. Unattractive men are punished. Its basic BF Skinner.

It’s funny though, but the tall, good-looking students I get aren’t necessarily any better with women than the shorter, less attractive students. I’d say they often have an easier time opening, but in the end, opening and getting into conversation is only 20% of the game. When it comes to the rest of the game, a lot of the time, the good looking guys just don’t know what to do.

These men can’t teach you anything. Because they never learned anything. It was handed to them. You see, like girls, very good looking men rarely have had to develop an actual personality (the key to pickup).

Knack laid it out. You guys just haven’t developed the missing components that puzzle you with that lack of success.

You had no need to develop these traits, not that you were deficiently wrong in doing so.

Donald Trump, Jr. is nowhere near the success his father is, because he doesn’t have to be.

I am 6’1″ and reasonably good looking despite being about 250 lbs and 39 years of age. But, when I was in my early 20’s, at about 190 lbs, I was REALLY, REALLY good looking, and the thing is, while I may have gotten a few approaches here and there, trust me when I tell you that women most definitely did not approach me on any kind of a regular basis. Game is what I needed then, but I didn’t know about it.

I think we can say that knack is partially correct.Some good-looking guys clean up.But my point is that not all such guys do.

Ironically I believe that looks are indeed very important.More important than most gamesters would admit.

From personal experience Ive found that many women,especially young women,are intimidated by a combo of looks and a “smart” aloof demeaner.This is what makes guys like me and asher have to work harder than your average jokester or “cocky-funny” gamester.We’re not “fun.” We’re not “exciting.”

Poor suckers are getting ripped off and this is only bound to increase.

Why do people assume that psychosexual dominance skills can be acquired by anybody. This is also patently untrue. The best and the only way to play the game is to play to your strengths.

The sad thing is …guys think that some magic bullet game seminar will actually shoot them up…It is really the inner game that is the most valuable takeaway. Shit you can do this at home.

Inner game is the modern Charles Atlas/Thighmaster ploy. Modern thinking is incredulous to accepting a six-pack is what got you laid. It is even more boggled that 6’2″ is a trump card because no seminar and no amount of dedication to fitness can break that barrier.

The difference is, gurus can charge large sums of cash to ‘teach’ imperceptible psychology or a process like P90X.

In my observations, inner game is on the level of difficulty of following a bodybuilding, crunch workout regimen to acquire what was not bestowed naturally, i.e. by capital “N” Nature.

Hmm. You mean concerts, etc. on campus? My question is – how not to be the wierd creepy old guy that’s still hanging out on campus?

If you feel like the weird creepy old guy you’re going to come off as the weird creepy old guy.

Shit, I was still going to Cancun for Spring Break years after I graduated from college. Granted, I’ve always — and still do — pass for a younger guy. But still, I didn’t let the fact that I was one of the oldest guys around get in the way of some 18 year old pussy from the Midwest going wild in Mexico.

Firepower proposed: “if you can develop a hot or not method for posting your pics here, that would answer many questions; many of which, you may not want the answer to.”

I’m in for judging. Personally I think the dude in the video – lovebug or whatever – isn’t that bad looking. In fact once you seem him in the video he gets even more attractive. So I guess what I’m trying to say is I won’t be the Simon of the judges I’ll be more Paula like but I’ll aim for Ellen.

The thing about a bullshit story like pretending you are a journalist: she doesn’t have to believe it. As long as you say it with congruence, conviction and playful teasing, you may as well tell her you just got out of prison and finished signing up for Freshman Comp.

Her hindbrain won’t care that you are pulling her leg. It’ll tell her you are a funny/cool guy and she’ll forget you are some older dude tryign to hit on 18 year olds.

I think the key is this, if you’re looking for a guru – find a guy who has done exactly what you want to do. If you’re ugly, find a guru who is or used to be ugly and transformed himself into someone who has a lot of whatever you want, whether that’s having lots of casual sex, monogamous relationships, or whatever. If you’re good looking, maybe a guy who is good looking could help you more since you both don’t have to worry about looks. I think what we’ve demonstrated in this thread is that it is a different game.

Everyone is coming from a different place in their lives. That’s why when starting out it’s best to take an appraisal of yourself and eliminate your weaknesses. Work on it until you hit seriously diminishing returns with it, then just sustain that area or improve it slower.

For instance, if you’re REALLY rocking the skinny-fat look, working out and getting in shape will vastly increase your ass-getting abilities, all other things being equal. However, working to the extent that you have 6% body fat and super-toned abs is probably unnecessary unless you only pick up girls on the beach. Diminishing returns.

Game is touted as the best thing because it’s really got the highest potential return on your investment. If you were a fat slob and also had no game, but could only pick ONE area of your life to improve upon, then it should be Game.

As for 85% of game being approach anxiety, negs and shit tests – well, that depends on where you’re coming from. I think for MOST people, that’s the case. But for some guys approach anxiety isn’t as big of a deal but they are AWFUL at being introspective and figuring out where they messed up. They just keep doing the same things over and over. For me, negs were the obvious part of game – I picked that up on my own a long time ago since I saw it as the most common thing my friends were doing with their girls.

Of course, all this is in the context of getting more of what you want from women, not necessarily in the context of living a more happy/fulfilled life (although clearly they often intersect).

FWIW, I am not even remotely proud of the way I look, it’s simply a non-issue. Amusingly, in my late teens early 20s I had lots of women begging me to let them make me up into a woman, even had that happen a few times after 30. Once let a woman do that and ended up looking hotter than all her female friends.

I liked you when you were less partisan. Roissy, if you are interested in truly benefiting your readers, I have the appropriate community credits to write the other side of this perspective, or a counter-argument. We’ll see if you are interested in airing both perspectives. This is the dumbest one-sided post I’ve seen on your blog, which is painful because you have the best blog out there in general.

Venusian Arts Knack,

What you fail to comprehend is that GOOD GAME should come hand in hand with becoming a more physically attractive person. How do you look more attractive? By losing your fat. Nearly EVERYBODY who does something about their fat-muscle ratio will look good. Bring your fat down to less than 18% and you WILL look good to women.

Everybody you criticize as being natural in the community took specific steps to get lean, because this makes you an overall healthier individual. They advocate total image transformation, with fly clothes, etc.

What you are advocating is that people should be their fat slob selves and just use tactics. WEAK.

Being handsome makes such a SMALL and IRRELEVANT difference that other companies do not even think about getting someone handsome to teach because it is MEANINGLESS.

Furthermore, you did mention that you are short, and height is my opinion the most important male physical attribute, granted you do not have an outrageously hideous troll face.

All told, I’d give you about a 7 in looks. And since women date up, if you combine those looks with bad game, you are only going to get 4s, 5s and occasional 6s. So your story does not totally contradict Knack’s post.

————————

I do think Knack’s post lacks some subtlety though. The top 3% or less of men who have unbelievably phenomenal alpha good looks — Joe Perry, or a young Vince Neil or Tommy Lee for example — may be able to get enough one night stands with enough attractive women to make them think they have game. Beyond that though, good alpha looks will grant a lot of auditions, but not many closes, even for a night, if you truly lack the ability to communicate with women in the way they want you to. Note that I say *not many* closes– you will get a few, maybe a respectable 10 a year from women mostly in the 5-6 range, but nothing that would convince any halfway reasonable person to lead bootcamps about pickup, unless that person was willfully trying to rip people off.

If the “all looks no game” phenomenon is restricted to such a small subset of men, it follows that every other class of man has to employ SOME degree of game in order to get laid, and has to have SOME fairly decent grasp and understanding of game to get laid with any regularity. Therefore, these gurus that may rely disproportionately on their looks to get laid, nonetheless have some basic grasp of game that they can impart to students. And even a basic primer in the bare fundamentals of game can vastly improve a man’s sex life. So, since there are very, very few men who can have great success with looks alone–and even fewer within this subset who decide to run bootcamps–I conclude that there can’t possibly be too many “all looks no game” gurus out there that are truly setting large number of men on the wrong path. Even Janka, who is the poster boy for the ‘all looks no game’ guru if there is any, does have some basic solid advice that, if applied, would help any man.

SS, if you would like to write a counterpoint to Knack’s post, feel free. i’ll put it up as a guest post. just send to my email address.

this goes for readers who have taken workshops with pickup “gurus”. i’d like to hear about your experiences, good or bad. write about it, email me, and i may put it up as a guest post.

btw, getting lean is certainly a help to a man’s game, and maybe a guy doesn’t have to be handsome, but what about older men who take workshops? SS, if you have some perspective on that, it would add some heft to the debate.

no offense, but you look ok – you aren’t really good looking. There’s plenty worse – and plenty better – so that puts you squarely in the middle where Game can help if used properly and effectively. The failure you’ve experienced isn’t attributable to your looks.

You get respect for posting pics. Nobody else did with their (as yet suspiciously undeserved) claims of being “good looking” men who can slay the women without game.

As for the others, I recommend they get a better mirror, remove their head from their ass and post a pic.

SS: No idea who you are. but I never told people to go out and be fat slobs.

I just said most guys I know that are very good looking have crap game.

by your own admission, looks count and you do your damnedest to make them like you. You dont actually have the teaching skill to show them how to attract a woman. Ill do you one better. Gain 100 lbs and go toe to toe with me in any pickup contest. Unless you learn to attract with something other than your looks while you gain that weight you cant beat me in field.

As far as marketing, I have no interest in it. Im going overseas for a year or more. I dont really care if it drums up business.

Roissy and I travel in a few of the same circles. No partisianship here.

Asher: You are an OK looking guy. You arent what I am talking about. A little above average nothing more. Also you do look your age, even if you think you dont based on your pictures. Not trying to be mean. Just an honest assessment.

Do you know what real game is? It is all the things you take with you if you were to transfer bodies with someone else. Would you get similar results? If you wouldn’t, guess what? You are using your looks as a crutch.

This is so crucial it deserves restating. Proofs are hard to come by in social science and even the ones that generally approach proof status are subject to discussion.

If you can replicate this honestly without deceiving yourself you are about as close as you can be to determining the validity of your instructor, his methodology and any praise he deserves for success.

Game is terrible because it increases the reproductive chances of those that are not as genetically strong as those who are natural alpha males with alpha minds and alpha bodies. Roissy, do you want to degrade our gene pool by helping the weak and unworthy to get laid? You talk about the decline of western civilization without realizing how important selective breeding is. Even if the intent of those using game is not to reproduce, the chances of it happening accidentally increase exponentially.

[editor: what if the current baseline selection by women is for thugs and verbal rapierists? it might be to society’s benefit to get the introverted betas up and running with game.]

John says:
“This contradicts so much that’s been written on this site and elsewhere in the game community it takes my breath away. This is the problem with the game community – 80% of the material out there is a mass of contradictory advice with no coherent organizing principle. Do this, no do the opposite, etc, etc. Roughly half of what roissy writes is in subtle contradiction to the other half of what he writes, and it’s even worse elsewhere.”

~
Ever read the Bible John? Probably not. You don’t need to to understand that it is chock full of contradictions.

Actually, life in general is full of contradictions and irrationalities – one of the biggest being that the choice to exist is irrational ( to use a bit of Satre inspired existentialism).

One of the best pieces of advice my old lady gave me was not to believe and become a disciple of one school of thought, not to blindly follow what one author or literary voice has to say. Read, research – take a bit from this , a bit from that – and mould it into your own being of how you want to live. (Obviulsy she wasn’t talking about game, but you get my drift).

This post of Roissy is probably one of his best. I do not have game to match anywhere near what Roissy has – when I am in shape, have a good haircut, and wear decent clothes I have HAD HOT WOMEN APPROACH ME. Me with my shocking “game”. (which is why I read Roissy in the first place I am not afraid to admit).

However – when I get lazt and gain 30 pounds, with a dishevelled appearance to match, I would go for months flogging the log, with nairy a flutter of female interest – due to NO GAME.

Yes a ood body and good looks will get you laid without much effort – but when you have been on both sides of the physical attraction scale then you immediatley “click” with what Roissy is saying in this post.

Ever seen early pictures of Jim Morrison of the Doors? The guy, as a youngster, was a fatty with a typical “son of a military man haircut”. Very ordinary looking – and from what I have read, quite shy and not that popular with the girls

Scroll forward to 1966 and Venice beach with an LSD inspired fasted body of 40 pounds less. Not overtly”muscular”, but lean and with the fat melted off his face to reveal Greek God like looks with a matching Alexander the Great haircut.
This is well before he became famous. He had no money, no “Game”, was stoned most of the time writing poetry some very good some ver bad poetry) BUT was pulling all sorts of Venice beach babes into his lair on top of a rooftop in LA. Why? Because all of a sudden he LOOKED ATTRACTIVE to chicks. Thats all.

You can of course count out anyone who is famous from all this. A post 1970 Morrison with no fame would have struggled to pick up an aids-infested crack whore.

Looks count, and you can “count out” any purported PUA “guru” with above average looks and phsyical condition.

Ever seen early pictures of Jim Morrison of the Doors? The guy, as a youngster, was a fatty with a typical “son of a military man haircut”. Very ordinary looking – and from what I have read, quite shy and not that popular with the girls

…You can of course count out anyone who is famous from all this. A post 1970 Morrison with no fame would have struggled to pick up an aids-infested crack whore

That’s a good point, made from a good example.

At the end of his career, Morrison got fat from all the booze and grew a scraggly beard. His label wanted him to return to the rock idol look to increase sales.

That meant, his popularity waned with his appearance and no doubt, his cock had longer dry spells as well.

Human beings are mortal in that the richest (or most powerful) person in the world will die just as surely as the most “unsuccessful” person. For all the talk of passing on your genes, even your clone will never be YOU. Moreover, a person with a terminal illness committing suicide before it gets too bad suffers less than a rich person who gets all of ‘best’ treatment and still dies in great pain.

The chance that you will profit to any worthwhile degree from any achievement of your ethnic or racial group is so small that over 95% can ignore it.

So why do we do it?

I would say:

1. Ignorance – real or willful

2. Choice

The vast majority of people fall in category 1. They can either not see the futility or try to ignore it (the more clever).

The other option is that you know that reality is fucked up (and are willing to admit it) but still do it for amusement.

If you believe in category 1 reasons, you will care about others. If you think category 2 is right, you will not care above a very basic level.

It seems like a handicap to NOT be fit. While Knack is filling his mouth with cheeseburgers, he LOSES OUT on EVEN MORE potential opportunities.

Who has more status?

1. Fat guy with game
2. Hunky guy with game

Knack is rationalizing his poor fitness habits. But if he is satisfied with the amount of poon he’s getting, then I suppose he has no reason to get more fit. (except for the fact that he has a greater risk of disease and ED down the line…)

But, clearly with the amount of supporters in the responses, most guys do not attain high levels of physical attraction. And for them, listening to Brad Pitt for tips on seduction probably isn’t a good idea. I think that is the main point Knack is trying to get across.

Overall, Knack has written a post that is controversial and therefore successful. I’m only annoyed by Knack because his frame seems to be one of a person who despises people for their looks. That is weak inner game.

asher—I will disagree with some of the assessments given about you and say you are indeed good-looking, or were in your 20’s, but you’re definitely on the pretty side of good looks, not handsome. You’d have been a gay man’s dreams in your teens or 20’s (but not now, which is why some posters gave you neg reviews; your type of pretty looks don’t age well I’m afraid). However women are into a different type…they like tall, muscular guys (not bodybuilders, but jacked yes), and don’t care so much about the face. In fact having a face that’s too pretty is a minus with women, as it puts you into “sensitive” territory. I believe Knack is talking about Marlon Brando types.

That said, Knack is still wrong because you can look like Marlon Brando and be confident or dominant and still not necessarily score with women, or at least not with the hottest women. There’s a reason very handsome guys often end up with sub-par girls, it deserves some looking-into.

“Game is terrible because it increases the reproductive chances of those that are not as genetically strong as those who are natural alpha males with alpha minds and alpha bodies.”

Anyone able to improve his reproductive chances through mere learning and practice possesses desirable genetic traits.

The dirty secret is that it isn’t knowledge of game, or experience that are the limiting factors, but WILLPOWER to apply knowledge and experience. And willpower must surely be a desirable genetic trait.

If you are one of these guys who says good looks are not that much of advantage and you’re still not getting laid you’re doing something wrong. You are either not as good looking as you think, you have terrible body language, or you are extremely socially awkward. More than likely you exuding betaness… you ooze a lack of confidence and low self esteem.

If you’re good looking, you dont need a lot of game. Just be able to hold a conversation, listen more than talk, and smile a little, and you should be able to pull some girls. Stick to that basic game plan if you think you lack game. (Just run the ball and play defense to use a football metaphor). If you combine your looks with charisma and a confidant demeanor, well the world is your oyster isnt it? women are just one part of it.

Just know that being good looking gives you free reign to say whatever you want and be as aggressive as you want to escalate. So why waste your good given gifts? Use it. Girls expect you to be aggressive. Sure some girls will refuse you because they know you wont stay with them. But many will delude themselves and sleep with you prety fast. These are usually the 6-7’s. Many times when Im bedding a new girls she will always ask questions along the lines of “is this what you do with all the other girls”. They are sensing that what Im doing with them is something I repeat quite often and they are correct.

I’m 6’3, athletic and told Im good looking. Dark blond hair, blue eyes and high cheek boned Europeon face. Women and a handful of gay men have told me I look like Simon Le Bon (from INXS), and Josh Homme (from the Queens of the stone age) before he got fat. Anyway, Ive always been a late bloomer. When I was in highschool in college I was totally beta and shy despite my looks and I just stumbled it pussy. Girls would just come to me. Now that Im almost 30, my pretty boy look has become a little more masculine, though I still pass for 25 and have no wrinkles at all. Instead of pretty I guess I am classically handsome.

I spent my 20’s slowly becoming aware of the physical tools I have. I notice that girls and even dudes check me out when I walk through the city. Learning game through experience as well as overcoming my shyness has released the pussy dam. I banged more girls from age 26 – 29 then my entire life before that. I wish I knew then what I know now.

Anyway, I can say that as a handome guy you can say pretty much anything you want to girl to open. When you talk to a girl they immediately are receptive and smile and turn toward you. Its all I know, but Ive realized that men of lesser physical stature just dont get these automatic reactions from women. Sucks but true.

My roommate is a good contrast. I’d say he is even better looking than me. The kid is gorgeous and tall. He’s only 24 and has a masculine yet youthful face. Looks a little like Christian Bale. Handsome as shit. Anyway, he is naturally nice and kind hearted and somewhat naive. Girls approach him in bars literally everytime time he goes out and he simply cant close the deal. He blows it everytime. It’s like he is afraid. I get approached about 1 out of 5 times I go out.
I think his problem is that he is too boring and not flirtatious enough. He simply answers every question straight and isnt funny or charming. He loves sports and always turns the converastion to sports. If he would just learn a little game and had the ambition he’d be balls deep in hot women.

if a women does NOT like what she sees, chances are she WONT give you the time of her day for you to holler at her. You can have all the game you need but if there is no chic who wants to listen to what you’re spitting then you’re just throwing words at deaf ears.

The more attractive a women is, the more her expectations of a man’s look, image and appearance rises.

studying game is no excuse to be sloppy, lazy and out of shape and out of style.

Roissy knows that and has mentioned it a couple of times if I’m correct.

“Game is terrible because it increases the reproductive chances of those that are not as genetically strong as those who are natural alpha males with alpha minds and alpha bodies. ”

This falls prey to circular reasoning. If the qualities that natural alpha males exhibit aren’t as useful for fit progeny, then they won’t be selected for as readily as before. The changing landscape of procreation and the incentives and inducements towards relationships that foster procreation implies that the qualities selected for will change as well. Being densly muscled or aggressive doesn’t beget any extra fitness to offspring’s well-being. A man doesn’t gain status from those qualities anymore. Instead, status is gained through quick wit, assertiveness, and through political means. In essence, a man gains more by being verbally cognizant and socially aware moreso than being “traditionally alpha”.

The landscape has changed from the old ways. Game is an adaptation to that. Society isn’t going to revert back any time soon.

95% of “naturals” are just good looking dudes that girls want to fuck. They have always been good looking and women have been approaching them for sex and dating. […] These men can’t teach you anything. Because they never learned anything. It was handed to them. You see, like girls, very good looking men rarely have had to develop an actual personality (the key to pickup).

As Thursday and others have commented above, this is false, or at least misleading. If you’re making elementary mistakes — coming off as needy, massively failing shit tests, talking to women with the same no-nonsense attitude and manly humor as you do with men, etc. — you’ll repulse all but the most desperate girls even if you look like you were sculpted by Michelangelo. Girls will approach you, but they’ll also be turned off instantly, and often you’ll be so clueless not to even recognize blatant indications of interest.

From what I’ve noticed, the only thing that can sometimes compensate for a very severe failure of game even with hot girls is a combination of very good looks and noticeably above-average height. But even then, it’s exceptional. Just recently, I witnessed a girl’s weeks-long crush on a tall, handsome guy disappear within minutes once she finally got to talk to him.

Goldenseed: I think you will find it was Michael Hutchence (the guy that died in a bizzare S&M ritual) was the guy from INXS – not Simon Le Bon. Le Bon was lead singer of that awful group “Duran Duran”.

I wonder if there is anything to the theory that women prefer certain types of looks in men at various stages of their menstrual cycle. Square jawed high T guys at peak of menstrual cycle, and “prettier” boys at pre-menstrual. Or is it the other way round?
(Girls, help us out here).

Is it fair to say that 85% or so of Game is (1) overcoming approach anxiety, and (2) understanding the Neg and the Sht Test?

I’d say among the crucial factors are also: (3) eliminating any expressions of neediness and excessive eagerness, of which you can be disastrously oblivious, and (4) knowing what topics and attitudes to choose during conversation, and which to avoid (since many can be attraction-killers even if they’re perfectly respectable and appropriate in other contexts).

If I had to choose one of these as most important, I’d say (3) closely followed by (2), but maybe that’s just my personal experience.

Vladimir – I’d also add a 5th. Having (or appearing to have) lots of “funtickets” (i.e money) can make you instantly better looking and more desireable to the gold-digging bitches that propogate modern western cities (i.e most women).
Funny that.

thats hawaii’s myspace..this dude used to come to the Vegas lair meetings and pretty much manage to annoy everyone in there..He had this little notepad where he would take notes..steal routines but share nothing..All members hated this guy so much..Totally creepy..the social robot as Strauss said in his book

As far as the article, he’s right..but Im not sure if he should be taking shots at RSD when he has matador and mystery who are considered good looking and who run Venusian Arts..I think what RSD did was move the pick up from routine based on to more energy vibe based but again im not a fan of most of their instructors including tyler

I understood 5’s to be average and 6 – 7’s to be slightly better than average. Why call them ugly? I’m confused.

In practice, it’s not really a percentile scale or anything similar. Seven is usually taken to be the threshold where there’s a consensus that a girl is desirable. Six means very obvious flaws and only occasional flashes of real attractiveness, five means not hideous but without any appeal either, and anything below means terribly ugly. So, by conventional usage, sevens are not at all ugly, but anything below implies at least some ugliness.

Whether the average is five or something higher or lower, that depends drastically on the population. In some populations, like for example those affected by widespread obesity, hideous ugliness can sadly be the norm. In populations that are genetically gifted and women normally take good care of themselves, seven may well be the average among girls in their prime.

””””””This is what makes guys like me and asher have to work harder than your average jokester or “cocky-funny” gamester.We’re not “fun.” We’re not “exciting.”””””””””

I’d say to expand upon the fun part practice doing a backroll off a chair and landing on your feet. Like a complete flip backwards with the chair hitting the ground and then walk out on the dancefloor.

Apparently BradP has a freakishly large penis (he says an estimate of 14 inches is “a bit of an exaggeration”). And he clearly developed Big Penis Game into an art form. He has one story after another of isolating a drunk club slut, showing her his magnificent cock, then getting an instant blowjob or bathroom fuck out of it. Girls would spread the word about him, and within his social circle he was screwing girls based on their curiosity about his big penis.

What are guys in the other 99% of the penis population to do with this? I have no idea.

The whole point of “game” is revealing the truth that the way a man carries himself and his behavior can make him very attractive to women independent of his appearance.

I’d like to see lots of regular college-guys, especially those in sciences, information-technology, engineering, and business be able to find and keep a wife by getting a woman to fall in love with them. I think “game” can help many of these decent men win the love of a woman worth having a family with. Thats why Im “for” game. Even if the man is a religious guy (like Thursday), he can use game on religious girls to snag a religous wife of his liking.

Ive noticed like “Knack” has that a couple of the PUA gurus in particular (especially that European one) were good looking men who would be able to just do S&M (stand and model) behavior at bars and have women make assertive eye contact with them, practically beggin them to come over. My old roomates were in that league. They basically didn’t even have to try if they didn’t want to, and they’d still take someone home.

I’d like to express to others (the other guys) who might be reading this thought: A man does not have to use game to be an asshole. A man can use game to strengthen his marriage, find a wife, be a more “fun” husband for his wife, or to get free of a woman who is emotionally abusive to him and find someone else. You dont have to use game to “be a player”. Its simply a psychological approach to make yourself more attractive to the opposite sex. Its something someone should read about even if they never plan to do an approach. Its a good study of the opposite sex and their motivations, hopes and fears. Whether we like it or not, psychology is important and even though we might ignore it, others will not and will use it against us.

Thanks for the offer and will write something as a counter-argument to this and will send it to you after it is up to your normal posting standards. I will debate the question about older men taking workshops in this essay as well.

@ Venusian Arts Knack,

You weren’t singling out good-looking guys who have crap game – you were signaling out good-looking INSTRUCTORS, as though their good looks immediately invalidate all their teachings.

Other than the women who create their own brain rules (“I will only hook up with guys that are ___ feet tall,etc”), being handsome and good-looking in the traditional sense makes such a MINUTE difference that it doesn’t even register in the hiring decisions of most heads of seduction companies or even most students.

To even DEBATE this point means that you are entrenched in the same pre-community fog that “only hot guys can get women”…and aren’t you supposed to be teaching your students the contrary? If good looks doesn’t make a difference with the student, why would you think it does make a difference with the learning style and integrity of an instructor?

Did guys find this community to be told the same LIE?

MOST of the instructors who you would consider good-looking were NOT at first. But as they started to get into the game, they realized that they would have to EMBODY GAME and have it transform every aspect of their lives – for which they started improving their health and getting fit. And because they want to ensure their students take care of all aspects of TRUE game, you are singling them out?

Reread the friendly pickup contest challenge that you posted to me and is there for all the world to see. You are insinuating that if we went head to head right now AS IS (without me putting on those 100 pounds), I would WIN – simply because I am more “good-looking” (which you just assumed because we haven’t met) and you are “fat, balding, and older than most.”

And that’s supposed to inspire your students?

If you’ve got BETTER GAME, why do I have to become fat for you to win that contest? Game is, and should be, the true equalizer.

All in all, this post reads as a sourgrapes diatribe against people and instructors who you think have fared better in the ovarian lottery, and you’re just stoking the flames of would-be students who also feel they are somewhat at a disadvantage because of the looks issue. Great; hope it results in sign-ups.

Marketing? I’m not accusing you of that. But realize that you are catering to the lowest common denominator of student who feels self-hate because he is not Brad Pitt. You ended this post by describing your PHYSICAL SELF – old, fat, and balding – as though this is the reason why you will be an effective teacher.

“Yeah! Let’s hate on all those pretty boys and take a workshop with Knack! Let’s not get into the gym, let’s not take care of ourselves, let’s just listen to one of our OWN because ONLY he can understand us!”

Thursday you have the the ability to be very handsome. From what I can tell you have nice shoulder width. Your face is symetrical and I like the crinkles around your eyes. If you wanted to improve your appearence it’s rather simple and pretty inexpensive. Shave your head. Get veneers or crowns for your eye teeth. You have a great smile shape but your teeth need a little work. I gotta admit I’m a tooth girl – teeth matter, but maybe not to everyone. Feels weird being critical but I figure if you posted you’re looking for feedback.

Side note: If you’re a tall guy you can get away with leaving your teeth.

No offense to any of you here. Actually, that “fruity” thing you mentioned is something I developed after lots of trial and error. It’s my natural tendency, and I figured out how to turn it off at the snap of a finger, and it’s gold. Tried the brooding, quiet thing, and that was a total bust, no one bought it.

Look, this I treat this site, and its like, as a means of figuring out how to navigate the increasingly chaotic world of dating and sex. I was always trying to figure out the large disconnect between what women said about my looks and my lack of success with them. For example, at around 25 I was really good friends with brother’s girlfriend and we went shopping downtown for his birthday present. Driving home she was shaking her head and remarked that she’d never walked around with a guy who she’d seen get so many looks from women. I was completely oblivious. And I could tell you dozens of stories in social situations of that sort. Again, I’m weighing a myriad amount of feedback from women over the course of 23ish years against a couple of comments from guys who, from the looks of it, seem to have some sort of interest in the outcome.

BTW, I knew years before finding Game that looks mattered very little, as I saw dog ugly guys scoring well.

As for the age thing … I easily pass myself off as 23 and regularly get “bullshit” when I tell people I’m 35. So, I’m not sure how reliable you guys are. (BTW, I’m waaaaay more certain of this than I am of the “looks” thing).

Also, back when I was totally Game-free I’d randomly attract, very occasionally, some woman who was a legitimate knock-out. Freakishly, I dated a woman, for several weeks, who’d been in two MTV hip-hop vids. The few times that happened I’d ask them after losing their attraction what first got their attention and they all said my looks. So, yeah that would last a nano-second as soon as they figured out my nebbishness and religiously-induced awkwardness with sex.

BTW, in my darkest moments, maybe around 18, I was turning down 4s and 5s pretty regularly, depending, I guess, on how you define 4s and 5s.

I’ve enjoyed reading this blog recently and find a lot of Roissy’s postings enlightening, but I can’t really understand why he would share Knack’s post with us.

It seems to me that Knack’s immediate point is easy to grasp, but the conclusion to his statement, that some handsome PUA gurus are doing the community a disservice through poor teaching of Game, lacks traction without any concrete examples. It’s understandable why it might be difficult to post such examples in a somewhat public setting, but without anything else to go by, this conclusion just begs for further argument over the importance of being good looking, and frankly, seems like a bunch of sour grapes.

I think this argument overstates the importance of good looks and also fails to consider that there is a sizable population of average to decent looking guys that couldn’t get laid if their life depended on it because they have absolutely no game. This can be extrapolated to guys with great looks who have zero game and should be pulling way more ass than they are. How many times have you heard a casual girlfriend crushing on some good looking guy, waiting for the right time to finally meet him, and when she does have her first encounter with said stud, is totally turned off because he “creeped” her in some way?

In short, Knack’s post somewhat flies in the face of Roissy’s and others’ emphasis on social value in the Alpha-Beta-Omega continuum and is neglecting a huge population of decent looking dudes who are out there but just don’t know what the fuck they are doing on the scene. These people may actually benefit from the so-called “natural” gurus he is taking a swipe at.

That reminds me of the short memoirs of sex workers I read years ago about a homeless male prostitute who worked the circle of young socialites around the Hamptons through the rumor of his awesome cunnilingus skills.

He got so good at it… Head and game… That he was able to circulate among these heiresses, staying with one or the other for weeks at a time.

I think THAT is a display of the most advanced Game possible… Credibility Game — Where news of your exploits preceeds AND carries you to your goals.

Asher, being good looking means that you don’t have to be especially fun or a good talker to pick up chicks. With women approaching you, the goal should be to not talk yourself out of the game. Women LOVE to talk about themselves, especially the good looking narcissist types. Just ask her a couple of questions about her interests, and then keep your mouth shut, nodding and smiling as she prattles away, no matter how asinine or vapid the conversation is. The only words out of you mouth should be, “wow”, “really?”, and “cool”. Every once in a while repeat the last three words of whatever she said in the form of a question to prompt her to talk more.

Women love a ‘good listener’ and would rather have a hot guy with no personality than a guy that says lame stuff. It let’s her project whatever personality she wants onto you to justify her decision to slut it up. Note that this work when they approach you. If you approach you’ll have some game to spark her interest.

I’ve had those lines there since I was a teen, maybe because I’m highly expressive and always making face, and they show up because I work outside and get a tan easily. A couple of years ago I have a distinct memory of a woman shooting me down because I had a laborer’s tan, and she was doing something in aviation with a physics degree. Sorta unsettled me for awhile, too, the way she figured it out without ever discussing careers.

My real tell should be my obviously receding hairline, but I have to deliberately point that out. Which is *ugh*, because I’m 35 and like dating other 35 year-olds, and it throws me off my game to have to convince a woman that I’m actually her age. No, I have *never* considered looking young a good thing, hell, it’s almost as big a minus as being 5’6.

But, hey, if you have any suggestions on handling looking young, I’d love to hear ’em.

“Game is terrible because it increases the reproductive chances of those that are not as genetically strong as those who are natural alpha males with alpha minds and alpha bodies. Roissy, do you want to degrade our gene pool by helping the weak and unworthy to get laid? You talk about the decline of western civilization without realizing how important selective breeding is. Even if the intent of those using game is not to reproduce, the chances of it happening accidentally increase exponentially.”

“Surprized don’t hear more about female stalkers of the celebs. They must not be getting the kind of action you would think since I think would have to hire some ninja females to be the beatdown squad for woman who just wouldn’t go away.”

oooohh, if you decide you need a stalking ninja chick, I am totally all over that. I won’t even need any backup lady ninjas either. I’m great at throwing other women under a bus..I mean out the door.😉 So anyway, I’m going to go look at a few maps and some satellite photos for the best location to set up a command post….you know, the usual stalker shit.

and I still think that some people are better off not tanning, but now that I think about it, that only applies to females and very selectively.

Dammit, this post was on the right track but I think a few terms were fucked up.

A natural as I always understood the term was somebody (good looking or not) who unconsciously runs game. These guys can teach you a lot if you observe them interacting with women.

A naturally good looking guy is something else. There are a lot of guys I’ve noticed who have just been below the threshold of male physical attractiveness and a basic introduction to game (or even just grabbing hold of their balls and manning up slightly) suddenly creates a cyclone of pussy that the poor guy (who was almost there previously) suddenly thinks of himself as a PUA. These type of guys were the ones I thought the author was talking about.

I think acting like a 35 year old is a good place to start. Sometimes acting like a young douche will bring your age factor down. You look like a bit of a party guy in your pics – that’s a sign of immaturity to some women.

Even in cases where the person looks like they’re much younger, someone who’s actually paying attention to what they say and how they say it is going to figure out how old the person is. Despite idiocy and nonsensical banter, or even attempted deception by trying to “talk young”, there will be that one person who just *knows*.

Oh wait, for a minute there, I forgot that no one bothers with listening or even saying anything that important when they’re out at bars trying to get laid. I’ll go bake or cook something elaborate and complicated now.

Party guy, heh. 10 years ago I was the guy wanting to talk science and philosophy at the Memorial Day bash when everyone’s pounding shots of Jager. Also, If you notice, the people around me are all late 30s early 40s. What you see is the best I’ve got. I’ve tried the nerdy, bookish persona, the quiet, silent type, etc. etc. What you’re seeing is what’s been giving me the best results.

[editor: dude, you have just spent the last 50 comments qualifying yourself. game works!]

Caveat emtor, I am not sure why people are hating on knack. He has a very valid point. Most of you guys are so much sold on “game” that you are denying the basic reality that looks make it a lot easier and fugly-game is harder to teach as it has to be very personalized to your strengths.

Asher you have to botox your forhead to pass for 23, it gives you away. I’m not saying that to be rude or overly harsh but it’s your tell.

Those photos are all pretty well lit; in a dark setting, like a club or bar the more obvious effects of age can be greatly softened.

I’d say his ‘tell’ is the slight thinning in front, which is very rare for early 20s. He might be able to pass for 28 pretty easily though.

As for the good looks and Game; I think the point being missed is that methods need to be tailored.

I don’t have a pic, but I’m a fairly handsome man, and it’s definitely possible to be a handsome chode. I’ve been there.

A lot of the things that have been developed by unattractive Gurus, don’t work as well for attractive guys. You rarely see a nerdy, introverted, girl next door type who is an 8+ (in fact, I’ve never seen it). Her persona has conformed to her physical beauty, and how people treat her.

An attractive guy, who is Gaming like he is an average looking guy by default looks like he lacks self-confidence. He is behaving as if he doesn’t think he is attractive, or his persona has been crafted as such because other people for some reason have rejected him despite his attractiveness. The attractive guy needs to be more aggressive. An average guy who is Gaming like he is a male 10 will probably have better results, because people will buy into each others reality (which is really what being ‘Natural’ is supposed to be about anyway).

There is also the phenomena of the ‘catch’ mentality with women. If you are really physically attractive and/or monetarily stable; many women will go into immediate potential relationship mode with you. She will be on her absolute best behavior. Even if you aren’t a ‘catch’, invariably some small amount of girls will think you are; and totally shut down on that enthusiastic emotional level and trying to interact with you like it’s Chess or something. The exact opposite place you want to be; even if you do want her to be your girlfriend.

Physical attractiveness, is in my opinion, a facet of that nebulous ‘social status’. While it might seem good to open a set automatically perceived higher than the next guy, it’s really like an automatic congruency test too. The average looking guy comes in, opens the set and charms their socks off and shatters expectations.

The average guy can open a can of hotness that no one was expecting before congruency testing really begins, while the attractive guy has to come in and maintain expectations that people had at a glance.

It’s like when someone whose tastes you respect tells you to go see ‘the best movie’ ever, and you have to inform them that it wasn’t really that great. It’s not just a matter of subjective tastes, but raised expectations.

I am presuming of course that the metric here is the mating frequency and total numbers. Perhaps a weighted average of looks and numbers. THAT particular metric favors genetically gifted guys a lot more.

What game can do to the other guys is to hold on to a provider status and ensure that the kid is theirs with a high probability. These guys unfortunately are not the high mating frequency types and no amount of game will change that. They may fool themselves in the short term by investing a lot of time and effort into this. But at the end of the day a consumptive mating lifestyle is bound to hurt.
It is these folks that the “game gurus” FLEECE by “implicitly” promising them a higher mating frequency. Let us be honest here, most men sign up for these seminars expecting to increase their total mating output not really to hold on to a wife.

People ignore HBD at their own peril and scamsters have a lot to gain by lofty promises.

I don’t like to smile in photos. It is true that I have big teeth and an overbite. I thought by not smiling I could hide this.

I’m somewhat partial to toothy but hot overbite girls like Bille Piper, so that’s not it. The pic you had of you smiling on your old “Do you doubt” blog post was fine. Too bad you removed the pics for me to link too. But the full frontal you posted recently looked like you were snarling or trying (badly) to do a Billy Idol impression. Not good.

“An attractive guy, who is Gaming like he is an average looking guy by default looks like he lacks self-confidence. He is behaving as if he doesn’t think he is attractive, or his persona has been crafted as such because other people for some reason have rejected him despite his attractiveness. ”

not trying to pick nits here, but a good looking dude who *acts* like an average looking dude might suffer, but a good looking dude who is practicing game benefits across the board. i’m just pointing out that general behavior and game are two different things. game involves systematic behavior.

It is these folks that the “game gurus” FLEECE by “implicitly” promising them a higher mating frequency. Let us be honest here, most men sign up for these seminars expecting to increase their total mating output not really to hold on to a wife.

I find it unlikely that most guys want to become a PUA. I think the target customer is really guys who don’t do well with women, and don’t know why, or how to fix the problem on their own. Maybe some have egocentric PUA aspirations, but those don’t matter much when ego hits reality and they meet a girl they like that likes them back. That and most guys will want to run Game, while having their old lifestyle remain as unchanged as possible. Game is a self-help effort, not a new lifestyle choice.

Your receding hair takes away from your cute face. You have nice lips, smile and eyes but that hair has got to go!! Shave it off!!! You might also want to tone down the happy dappy smile. It’s toooooo much!

That systematic behavior still needs to be tailored to the individual, including how good looking that individual is.

A fugly guy and a hot guy can not run the same Game, even if both are systematic. From the fugly guy a routine might seem charming; while from the hot guy it will seem passive aggressive and weak. Since hot guys can get more traction with more direct methods, they are expected to use them and beat around the bush attraction building can backfire.

Yeah, the hairline is receding, so are you saying full shave or just really short, military-style.

But the smile stays, seriously, it’s eff’ing gold, with a caveat I’ll explain in a moment. One month-ish before I discovered game, I was sitting around a backyard fire, early Sept with a hodge-podge collection of ages, 20ish thru 50ish. A girl sat down, 20, and the gay couple I was talking to immediately went silent and started cooing about how much she looked like Tiffani Amber Thiessen, I mean the spitting image. About 10 minutes of conversation passed, and then a lull, punctuated by her blurting out at me across the fire, “you have the most beautiful smile I’ve ever seen”. Silence.

Women just do not do that to men, especially not in some sort of sedate social situation pregnant for awkwardness. And this is only the most salient of instances I can remember.

Now I had no clue, so I kinda ignored it and then went hilariously beta on her about 30 minutes later.

No, the smile stays. Why? Because 15 years ago I used to smile with a wry smirk, but the more I flashed a huge, genuine smile the more people would compliment it. I’m not just talking women either, totally straight guys would just stop and tell me what a great smile I have. But I play it off by contrasting it with a smirk that’s almost an aloof sneer, sorta implying “yeah, what you got”. It works so well as I’m throwing in a passing reference to a famous Shakespeare, Aristophanes or Nietzsche line.

Recent interaction:

Me: a snidely passing reference to moralists by Nietzsch (lots of context here)

Her: *earnestly plowing on*

Me: *interrupting* you did catch that Nietzsche reference, right?

Her: Ummm,

Me: You’ve heard of him right …

Her: Yeahhhh….

Me: I’m shocked *said entirely deadpan, could mean anything, followed by a smirk*

Immediately, followed by a huge smile and a finger-tap to her nose.

It’s all about contrasting it man.

I used to just sit and talk about the latest economic theory I’d found fascinating.

I can absolutely see why even though Asher describes himself as very good looking, and by some measures he is, he didn’t do at all well with women for years until he learned some game.

Asher is good looking in a distinctly gay kind of way. I’d definitely think he was gay if I didn’t see him socially interacting to the contrary. If not gay then hardly even a little male dominant – in looks that he projects in those pictures he links above, that is. In fact he even says he’s not naturally very assertive. Not saying he is gay or bi of course; he’s saying he’s not.

So of course he’d need to learn some game in order to project an asshole/socially dominant side to himself.

“Good looking” obfuscates and confuses much more than it illuminates with men. At a minimum there’s 1) good looking in an assertive, bad boy or edgie sort of way, versus 2) good looking in an assertive sort of way.

The thing about the way “good looking man” is actually used by girls, especially once they’re past junior high and high school and esp. if they’ve had some sexual experience direct or even sufficiently vicariously, is that what they really mean is that they can feel that he has sexual heat from his looks. I.e. edgie and playfully, knowingly dominant looking. Hence Russel Crowe and Billy Bob Thornton can be described as good looking.

Doug gets girls “esp. if they’ve had some sexual experience direct or even sufficiently vicariously, is that what they really mean is that they can feel that he has sexual heat from his looks.”

I have never gotten the facination women have with Johnny Depp he looks girly to me. Russel Crowe is a little too scruffy for me, but I think Billy Bob is totally hot. Although a recent episode with him on Canadian radio puts him down my list.

I understood 5’s to be average and 6 – 7’s to be slightly better than average. Why call them ugly? I’m confused.

Vladamir said:

In practice, it’s not really a percentile scale or anything similar. Seven is usually taken to be the threshold where there’s a consensus that a girl is desirable. Six means very obvious flaws and only occasional flashes of real attractiveness, five means not hideous but without any appeal either, and anything below means terribly ugly.

aoefe I think you have it a lot more right than Vladamir. that is in how it’s used by most in the community.

5 is plain or average. 4 has something wrong but not ugly. 6 is generally considered cute and above average. Some call 6’s pretty but will usually retreat to fairly pretty if challenged. (Some people do call 6’s hot but generally not those who can ever get 8s or very often get 7s, i.e. not alphas.) 7 is definitely pretty, and the first level of hot. 8 is very pretty or beautiful, and unarguably hot except by totally fronting PUA wannabes. 9 is gorgeous or definitely beautiful, stunning. (Lots of swimsuit type appeals to men models are 9s.) 10 is an international class beauty.

Sounds like someone is bitter that he is ‘badly balding’ and ‘fat’. Roissy, I hope you call bullshit on many of the holes in this guy’s argument. ‘Looks are a crutch’?? Christ, if you’re blessed with something you take advantage of it.

That was a great testament to the power of game, and the fact that even the ass-ugly men can succeed. We want a Roissy book! You’d be crazy not to, and you know it. I don’t think you’ll make Oprah’s book of the month, though.

Actually in the real world away from PUA rating and so on most men including most men who are themselves above average in attractiveness including alphas who aren’t trying to do status one up fronting would call 6’s pretty. Either pretty or cute interchangeably.

Asher’s age is given away by his wrinkled brow, receding hairline, but most of all the slack skin on his face. When you get to your 30s, unless you are taking really good care of your skin and staying out of the sun, the face on the skin will loose it’s tightness. You definitely look like you are in your 30s. Sometimes, younger people don’t recognize a person’s age because they don’t see the same signs of aging in themselves. A 20 year old might think you are younger, just because your not fat. But, an older person will easily be able to tell your age.

Exactly. What he’s also saying is that going to a game teacher who has way more natural as opposed to consciously learned advantages than you do is sub optimal. There’s not much demonstration that his success is due to what he teaches versus what he’s got that you don’t and can’t readily acquire.

if you’re a good looking guy, unless you have “negative game”, there may not be a point in learning the venusian arts. your time could be spent on other things while still filling your cup of sexual desire to the brim

I think an awful lot of gen Y guys particularly those in the upper half of the SES spectrum do have “negative game” these days, due to their extensive feminist home, school and media programing, with no let up on the chivalrous kind at home when they were kids growing up.

And let me go a step further. It [looks] has very little to do with it re the attractiveness of women, either.

There you’re wrong. The sexes are very different there. Men are far more visual.

But you’re not wrong that Roissy overstates the importance of looks to men. He’s a lot closer to right than what the mainstream puts out there on the subject, but he does exaggerate.

With men evaluating women too, “looks” actually does translate in part into gaging sexual heat from appearance. The better the guy is at it the more he can see through a short skit or plunging neckline being a sure tell, and go more by just raw appearance, particularly in motion, dynamic appearance – and physical interaction with people. Body language.

Most men who are themselves highly and self assuredly sexual are most attracted to an actively, fightingly, but ultimately deeply feeling it submissive woman. Though straight up high T slutty aggressively sexual can be hot for sort term low commitment and not too much time together sex.

5 is plain or average. 4 has something wrong but not ugly. 6 is generally considered cute and above average. Some call 6’s pretty but will usually retreat to fairly pretty if challenged. (Some people do call 6’s hot but generally not those who can ever get 8s or very often get 7s, i.e. not alphas.) 7 is definitely pretty, and the first level of hot. 8 is very pretty or beautiful, […]

That’s not how I commonly see these number ratings used, neither on the internet nor in real life. Look at almost any comment thread on this blog, and you’ll see that “six” definitely implies serious deficiencies, “five” is already used as an insult often and typically means “not revoltingly ugly, but not at all attractive either,” and the numbers below that are assigned to very ugly women pretty much randomly. Mind you, I’m not talking about the percentile scale or any other well-defined measure, but merely about the way people use these terms in practice.

A reader from Finland (Jaakkeli, if I remember correctly) once wrote an excellent comment here about the universal human bias when using the 1-10 scale. People always tend to spontaneously interpret this scale as: 7 = good, 6 = so-so, 5 = bad, 1-4 = awful, 8 = excellent, 9-10 = perfection. Humans are incapable of objectively thinking in terms of a quality scale with more than five or so gradations, and end up interpreting more fine-grained scales in such biased ways.

For this exact reason, the school grading systems in many countries use the clipped 1-10 scale where the lowest (fail) grade is set at 4 or 5. For example, the school grading system in Finland uses only the marks 4-10, and schools in ex-Yugoslavia use either the 1-5 or the 5-10 scale. Even with fairly objective formal criteria, the full 1-10 system gets distorted too much by human biases.

I never know why the guys I hang out with can’t score consitently with girls. I never thought I was especially handsome, but now I wonder if it’s my looks that get me laid if my wingmen do basically do the same things, but definitely enjoy less success.

You are in a business that sells a product – how to turn loser guys into winners with women. Obviously you can’t change their gentics and all that goes with it. So you try to change their attitude/spirit and “vibe”.

That’s good up to a point but you and the other “coaches” are in the business of overstating the effectiveness of your product.

“Knack” is just trying to point that out to the poor bastards who get too starry eyed about their real world chances of improvement.

I saw your video where you talked about almost dying. What almost killed you? I mean other than almost dying of embarrassment at the thought of family and friends finding out that you were fucking a Super Douche.

Ashie, if I had to sum up your looks in one word, it would be ‘boyish’ (other words might be effeminate, cute or gay).

Here’s what you’ve missed so far in your interactions with women. Your looks aren’t an asset in getting women they’re a complete fucking liability. Without saeeing video it’s a little hard to assess but in picture after picture you project a fun-loving, immature and very asexual persona. The boyband comment should be a dead giveaway, ever hear of the term ‘non-threatening’? Girls want to dress you up (like a doll?) If there’s anything to neoteny you’re what he-men will look like in 2000 years. How many clue sticks do you need to be beaten with?

Unless you have some very good tactics or resources for counteracting your looks, you’re going to be pigeonholed as a real nice or safe guy to talk to, gay (who doesn’t know it yet) best friend or some other asexual buddy role.

Also, there’s an eminent Sweet Bird of Youth vibe (though it’s hard to say if you’re Paul Newman or Gerladine Page). You are most definitely starting to show your age. You’re in the final moments of being able to pass for young and soon enough the little sunbeam mannerisms will start to become grotesque the same way a cougar wearing fashion designed for 16 year olds is grotesque.

My (probably wronghead advice).

– darken the wardrobe, bright colors make you look lightweight

– the smile is very good, but train yourself to not use it so much (you want to make it a scarce resource, a ray of sunshine that brightens her existence, make women earn the full smile, don’t give it away for free).

– stop making faces, learn to deadpan 98% of the time

– develop some hobby that requires you to kill small fluffy animals and talk about it a lot (kidding, sort of ….)

– kind of accidentally on purpose get a scar across one cheek

– don’t shave the head but cut it as short as possible and maybe tint it darker

– practice moving slowly, train yourself wait before turning around, practice standing or sitting in one spot for long periods of time at social gatherings where people have to come to you (be nonchalant if they don’t)

– ditch the pipe in public it makes you look like you’re playing grownup. Maybe bring it back after the process of masculinizing yourself has started to take hold.

In sum, you need to butch it up and start trying to look and act your age. jmo.

gregi said: “I saw a picture of myself from high school in the house the other day.

I wanted to go gay and fuck myself or at least cuddle. Was like I was one sexy motherfucker.”

seriously, in 2002, i would have claimed my own taint first, territorially, in a campus-wide game of RISK. anyone who says ‘age’, ‘looks’, ‘money’ doesn’t matter is at the tail-end of elliot rose’s fourth stage of nihilism http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/nihilism.html

silvio is amongst the memorable alpha males of the 20th century, and it carries over into 2009. the alpha male of the 21st century has not yet been established, though he has probably already been born (wealthy).

a tangent: environmentalism and feminism have become very partisan, in the same direction. if environmentalists are so eager to describe the fatalism of 200 years of continuation, why can’t they game-theory that time period, or even that of 20 years, for 3rd gen-mordern-day-matriarchy? just a passing quip, holler at your independent social-conservative.

”””””’Nihilism–the belief that there is no Absolute Truth, that all truth is relative–is, Eugene affirmed, the basic philosophy of the 20th century: “It has become, in our time, so widespread and pervasive, has entered so thoroughly and so deeply into the minds and hearts of all men living today, that there is no longer any ‘front’ on which it may be fought.” The heart of this philosophy, he said, was “expressed most clearly by Nietzsche and by a character of Dostoyevsky in the phrase: ‘God is dead, therefore man becomes God and everything is possible.”‘

From his own experience, Eugene believed that modern man cannot come to Christ fully until he is first aware of how far he and his society have fallen away from Him, that is, until he has first faced the Nihilism in himself “The Nihilism of our age exists in all,” he wrote, ” and those who do not, with the aid of God, choose to combat it in the name of the fullness of Being of the living God, are swallowed up in it already. We have been brought to the edge of the abyss of nothingness and, whether we recognize its nature or not, we will, through affinity for the ever-present nothingness within us, be engulfed in it beyond all hope of redemption-unless we cling in full and certain faith (which ‘ doubting, does not doubt) to Christ, without Whom we are truly nothing.”

As a writer, Eugene felt he must call his contemporaries back from the abyss. He wrote not only out of his own desire for God, but out of his concern for others who desired Him also–even those who, as he himself had once done, rejected God or warred against Him out of their very desire for Him.

Out of his pain of heart, out of the darkness of his former life, Eugene speaks to contemporary humanity which finds itself in the same pain and darkness. Now, three decades since he wrote this work, as the powers of Nihilism and anti-Christianity enter more deeply into the fiber of our society, his words are more needed than ever. Having faced and fought against the Nihilism in himself, he is able to help prevent us from being captured by its soul-destroying spirit, and to help us cling to Christ, the Eternal Truth become flesh.
””””””””’

I do think that to give oneself to god would make life easy as far as no need to accomplish anything as all you have to do is follow some rules then get eternity. This is what I offer my woman which makes it a tough bond. Now can there be a god in this. I suppose will find out in the end.

But is there really challenge in just being a devote religous person. I mean when the reward is eternity thats even better than winning the lottery and it is guaranteed. The reward is infinity times the sacrifice in attaining it. What challenge is that. The challenge is in believing there is nothing then to stay to make something takes some serious fucking balls.

”””’msexception to the rule,
Now if I could just do something with it all that would change someone else’s life for the better; the chance to personally make a difference in the world somehow is what I see as the ultimate success.””””

i volleyed with roosh about this, briefly, but as he so eloquently surmised, “poisonous existentialist thoughts” ARE THE WORST SHIT YOU CAN GET INTO.

sure, we all can recognize (or at least hypothesize) that women, on the whole, are vapid and interchangeable; a worthless emotional investment, devoid of economically-themed, transferable appreciation. evolutionary psychology supports this. as men, we can downgrade sex with a physical six to hand-sex with a great porn scene, or sex with a physical seven to intimacy with a relatively-flaccid 9(robot).

best game i can prescribe, since i am aspiring to live it: set a goal, or twenty goals. check them off. write a new one every time you meet one. live life like a capitalist cashier’s register: ring the bell, and love the sound of that bell.

handsome “natural game” practitioners, such as “The Social Man” tutors in nyc, can’t sell you their hyper-personality, fashion-sense, or thinness. they CAN put confidence in omegas and lesser betas by mingling with girls and shoving them into their otherwise-galvanized inner circle of acceptance. i can’t diss ‘the social man’, and their shit is pretty cheap. it’s not for me right now, but at one point, it would have been a very productive fit. my buddy with a girlfriend likes their style a lot because it, in as many words, has taught him to have a good time in any situation, even when the burden of his girlfriend’s company dampens his mood. he’s no lesser beta, either.

sodini could not fuck college-age girls, to his frustration, and perhaps no PUA could have facilitated this jump. inner, “natural” game would have definitely helped him bridge the gap toward his perceived ultimate goal of having a family. move him toward the nucleus of the “life of the party”… each step forward eases his anxiety. anyone who doesn’t see this is a fool, or at least has never truly learned of scraping those mental depths.

for a burned-out 40ish divorcee, four day vegas bootcamps will not teach you how to get laid. they might get you out of a deep depression, however, and that can be worth the price of admission.

fattened 30ish fratboys need different guidance, and perhaps a kick in the ass to dress better and get back to C&C Music Factory spin classes are a more productive fit.

for the underage university sophomore, MM might be the perfect augmentation, with some additional ‘natural game’ and framing context.

for the toddler, you might want to just tell him to spit in his mom’s face and laugh, and promise impunity afterward. (ok that is going too far but FUCK YOU!)

Or doesn’t it kind of make sense that an intelligent person would “find” Jesus after spending some time weighing all the options in life. It is just of course gonna be the answer that makes sense in this rigged game of life. Hmm
Having a life of doing whatever you want that lasts a hundred years potentially or an eternity in heaven where it is always eternal bliss. So it takes a bet that there is heaven. You cannot disprove the theory that there is heaven though. So still the smartest bet you can make that there is one since without one there would be nothing and it wouldn’t matter anyway what you had done for the potential 100 years.

gregi:
“Or doesn’t it kind of make sense that an intelligent person would “find” Jesus after spending some time weighing all the options in life. It is just of course gonna be the answer that makes sense in this rigged game of life. Hmm”

i’m not able to buy into that yet. i understand the stacked odds of pascal’s wager. it’s sort of like knowing the giants are a truly awesome football team representing the center of the known universe. i should bet on them without acknowledging their opponent this sunday. some will do this and win. others defy the vegas bias at all costs.

Dam that is awesome, dude said grizzly mans woman stayed while he was being eaten for 6 minutes then was eaten herself. Said she was hitting bear with a frying pan on the head. She tried to help. Thats a good woman. Give this guy superalhpa status I would think.

My woman I think would have chopped the fuckers head off while the bear was eating me. Then gutted and quartered it in about 5 ten minutes and be cooking that fucker a short while later. Warrior woman and feminine.

If your gonna be playing with bears you need to learn how to use a machette. I think the easy life she lived probably led to their demise in this particular situation.

that can be read in a way that sounds much worse for you than you intended.

Heh, yeah, I noticed this after posting but figgured to let sleeping dogs lie. For the record: a dude old enough to buy liquor hooked me up with cheap beer when I was underage and I drank said beer and had sexitime with a chick from my class.

sheesh, busy yesterday and coming in late to this post. great comment thread – better than average and on-point. esp. since roissy whacked lurker and zunder. see what a little proactive management can do?

i liked the posting of pics – i kinda like associating names/personalities with faces – but they were all gone this morning, except chuck’s and gunny’s. tupac, don’t go away. another will arise to take clio’s place in your heart.

i think dana noticed the other day that the some of the best regular posters – nova, welmer, DFH etc. – spend less time here now that they have their own blog. frankly, i like the game/evo-psych subject more than the MGTOW and anti-feminist thing. it’s the difference between engagement and bitter sniping from the sidelines. anti-feminism is fine up to a point, but it slides a little too easily into misogyny, making the same error as doctrinare feminism: taking the worst traits, behaviors and examples of the opposite sex and holding them up as the norm, completely discounting reasonable middle ground, responsible and respectful people and behaviors of the opposite sex, and all the rest that ought to be drawing us together. it’s like the male equivalent of the man-hating dykes that are so disproportionate in the leadership of feminist organisations. so imho, the solution to our dysfunctional sexual/social dynamic, the long-awaited truce in the battle of the sexes, does not that way lie. sorry, guys – i love ya, but “the spearhead” is not as compelling as i expected it to be. but as it seems to be attracting a lot of readership, and contains a lot of undoubtedly smart stuff, we can take that as my problem and not yours. kudos and good luck.

on the topic of the post (very belatedly): Knack’s assertion is possibly true, in some cases, but need not be true. Just because a guy is good looking doesn’t mean he can’t understand, learn, or teach the psychological dynamics of game. A number of posters touched on it: a woman can have a weeks-long crush on a good looking guy only to have it disappear once she hears the first words out of his mouth. This means looks make it easier to open, but not generate long term interest, least of all close the deal. So Knack’s obeservation is “not proven”, but the larger point of excessive and growing hucksterism and fraud in the pickup workshop industry – well, that seems obviously true as well.

just like brazil, team usa exports its best soccer talent to the occident, without fail. unlike brazil, its best athletic talent stays home to prosper, without fail.

in a closed-borders, “traditional western civilization” model, one of these countries seems superior in scope and size. it is… ironic… that a 3rd world country could prosper so pointedly, simply from hedging against the hegemony from a 3rd party perspective.

“The arrangements seem to have been carefully thought out down to the last detail, including how Mr Mbhele will alternate between his four wives, who all live in different parts of northern KwaZulu-Natal province.

Visitation plan

“There are seven days in a week and I have four wives. I will take turns visiting them and use the remaining three days to rest,” he says.

Nice and startingly traditionalist conclusion in that WT article, especially for a mainstream news publication:

Yes, 50 may be the new 25 these days, and thanks to improved dentistry, hair-coloring, nutrition and exercise habits, older women have never been able to look so good — for their silver wedding anniversaries, their kids’ graduations and dates with men their own age.

@gig – Team USA may do well. They almost beat Mexico in Mexico City. The real amusing news was Argentina doing so badly, and having a scare of not qualifying. Maradona might be a national hero, but he is a cokehead (or at least was) and a bad coach. Here’s hoping they get killed in the first round in SA. We can agree on that, right…?

gig,
i have been abused by taking long positions on the Denninger Kraken, mostly those mathematically-impossible longs on leveraged shorts. you know, the ones that the market doesn’t exist for because they are equity traps..

i understand that you are a sharp guy, but i also know your Kraken-spell is just convincing TJF to detonate a nuclear bomb. in anticipation of this, gunslingergregi and i already have multiple trading screens dedicated to following his everyday habits. you will not get the drop on us in this respect.

if you are done poking at me for posing a question the other day that i could have answered with a google search, i am amenable to a truce, and i will share with you the contents of up to two of my four TJF-focused trading screens, as well as my slow-stochastic analysis. i would also run it by my blond-haired pal at 85 broad, but he went to sunday school with me back in ’89 and therefore has no idea how the market will be manipulated.

””””””Cannon’s Canon
gregi:
“Or doesn’t it kind of make sense that an intelligent person would “find” Jesus after spending some time weighing all the options in life. It is just of course gonna be the answer that makes sense in this rigged game of life. Hmm”

i’m not able to buy into that yet. i understand the stacked odds of pascal’s wager. it’s sort of like knowing the giants are a truly awesome football team representing the center of the known universe. i should bet on them without acknowledging their opponent this sunday. some will do this and win. others defy the vegas bias at all costs.

””””””

Wouldn’t it make sense to bet every game of season as a win then if they have a season where they win more than lose you win. Does that work out? Isn’t it fairly easy to pick a team that will have a winning season?

@gig – ha, then some brazilian you are. my wife always roots for them to lose in futbol, even though she also loves argentina and the people. they’re an arrogant team (like brazil) who cause great joy when they get defeated.

al ya didn’t know its go ghey for a day day. Get used to it when it becomes too punative all men will have to go ghey or go out in blaze of glory. Two choices. They will be the only sensible things to do lol

@al- Am *I* sexyhot? Is that the only kind of attractiveness possible to a female (or even a male)? I’m of the dissenting view here, disagreeing with Roissy, that attractiveness is not universally set on some fixed scale but highly subjective and dependent on the attractee’s culture, family, personal history, etc.

””’oooohh, if you decide you need a stalking ninja chick, I am totally all over that. I won’t even need any backup lady ninjas either. I’m great at throwing other women under a bus..I mean out the door. So anyway, I’m going to go look at a few maps and some satellite photos for the best location to set up a command post….you know, the usual stalker shit.”””””

1. How good looking are his female blood relatives, particularly his mom (in her prime) and his sisters (if any)?
My mom was a solid 7 and my sister a 9, so I figured the apple couldn’t fall that far from the tree. There were also some hotties among my grandparents and great-grandparents. This is less useful if your close female relatives are all in the 6-7 range.

2. Do you ever get cold approached or propositioned by women even when you’re not doing a lot?
I have been approached by girls in bars and even outright propositioned by girls I hadn’t approached, so I figured I probably had at least some physical appeal.

3. What is the reaction of women when they talk to you and you are being kind of boring?
This won’t tell you if you have basic good looks or are ugly, but it is a great litmus test for whether you are one of those “superstars” who don’t need game. I’m not one of them.

4. How successful are you at internet dating?
I got a lot of women out on internet dates. Then, of course, I would tend to screw things up because I had no game. Somewhat unreliable, as your writing ability counts here too.

5. What do girls tell you about how you look?
I would sometimes get random compliments and girls would tell me that was good looking. The problem here is that girls will tend to compliment guys on their looks when they like them for their personalities.

6. How do you compare with guys that are acknowledged to be very good looking like models and actors?
The least reliable metric IMO, as you are prone to all sorts of self deception and don’t have the benefit of those gut feelings you have when evaluating female attractiveness. You have to reason and compare. But looking at things like facial symmetry, the brightness of your eyes, the appeal of your smile etc. can be helpful.

Taken all in all, things for me were pointing towards my being good looking (a 7 or 8), but definitely not spectacular (neither a 9 nor 10). Aoefe’s comment tends to confirm this.

@al- Am *I* sexyhot? Is that the only kind of attractiveness possible to a female (or even a male)? I’m of the dissenting view here, disagreeing with Roissy, that attractiveness is not universally set on some fixed scale but highly subjective and dependent on the attractee’s culture, family, personal history, etc.

1. blame my late night last night, but I’m so not understanding this at all. (martinis! woo!)
2. of course you are, and the more so the longer one knows you.
3. I was cracking on the men discussing the purely physical looks, being not sexually attracted to men themselves.
4. I’m on the side that true sexyhot is the whole man; no thanks to the dim and dull glorious physical specimen. And I think this really is true for most women, generally.*However* there do still exist the truly physically hot man, but they’re as rare as the 9.5 running around. So why do so many men on this thread think they’re physically that 9.5?
(and I still wouldn’t sleep with that 9.5 if he wasn’t awesome)

thursday, I don’t know and I missed the pic (but hey, feel free to let me see it.) I think a lot of the men on this thread, though, sound like they’re overselling their looks; generally you should be able to tell if you’re attractive or not, but how much so no way. Partially I think this is because what makes men attractive is half the intangible presentation, and a man can’t see that for himself. So your looks are half the attraction, but your movement and stance and blah blah are the half of the “physical”. This all is in reference, btw, to that initial pre-conversation stuff, pure physicalness. (and isn’t this half the point of moving/seeming/appearing alpha?)

It is similar in my mind to how women who get relentless hit on from 16-24 assume they’re hot, while in fact they may just be available. (I have no real ability to grade my own looks, bc it gets too muddled by male attention. I have ovaries, no hideous scars, I get attention. Am I an undiscovered Meghan Fox? maybe. etc. etc.)

One reliable method of knowing you are a good looking guy: seeing a reflection in, say, a store window, and noticing that cute girls are checking you out as you pass by them; or similarly, having a non-sexual female companion (sister, co-worker) tell you that these girls just checked you out.

Knack, don’t your comments cast doubts on Matador’s abilities as an instructor?
And can a guy like you, with game, land 18 year olds on a regular basis?”

Actually, Knack can land 18-19 year olds regularly. I’ve seen him do it.

BTW, yeah, brad P (who I’ve met) is probably considered attractive (tall, slim) but I don’t think he is the kind of prettyboy Knack is talking about. Mystery (who I’ve met since I work for him) is considered attractive…but also probably not who Knack is talking about..

Knack is talking about the many many coaches out there who could easily be cast as leading men.

Ranging from age 18 up to current (age 39 in the last pic with beanie).

I’d put myself between a 6 – 7.5.

But “game” is a different matter. I’d put my “game” at about 4.
Which is why I read blokes like Roissy, Roosh etc.

I say “true game” because at times when in good shape and a decent haircut – I often did not have to work hard to get laid – with the resultant poor game that results.
And when a period a few years ago of getting out of shape and feeling down on myself resulted in a spell drier than the Sahara with the opposite sex – I knew I had to do something about it.

This is a very interesting post, and I’m surprised that I missed it. What I will say is that I am 6’4″, and I would label my face as “cute” (if you’ve seen my facebook, then you know what I look like). I will say that I have a pretty easy time with women, and I actually do get approached by them. I know that I can purposely screw up sets for my amusement,s because if I really want to get laid, I just walk up to a girl and tell her exactly what’s on my mind.

Good looking guys need game just as much as ugly guys do. I know of a good looking instructor that was an inch taller than me that couldn’t get laid. I also have a couple of friends that are an inch or two taller than me and couldn’t get laid until they met me. Just because a guy is good looking doesn’t automatically mean that he can get laid.

Good looking men face many of the same problems that ugly guys do. For example, I was so use to getting approached by women that I had to learn how to approach. Some good looking guys need to build up their confidence, just like ugly men. And like ugly men, many of those same good looking men need to learn how to isolate a girl and escalate up to sex.

Do women prefer good looking men? Yes. But unless that good looking guy has game, he’s going to screw up and lose the girl, just like the ugly guy. I know this because I have first hand experience with this, and good looking men have come to me with the same problems that ugly guys face. Good looks will only get your foot in the door, but they won’t get you into the bedroom.

A bit late to the dance, but a very good post, and I thank Roissy for putting it up. I’ve noticed this trend a bit, too.

Chuck kinda stole my thunder, but to just build on the theme he’s put forth…

Since guys who are into Game tend to be just a weebit geeky, I’m gonna mention two names: Superman, and Daredevil. Both “superheroes” but drastically different in many ways.

Like the author of the article says, we all know a guy in our lives who’s like Superman-great looking, w/out of this world “powers” of seduction that he was born with. The guy could basically move mountains with his Natural Game. Be it in highschool or college, on the job or in our social circle, we’ve all had our own Kal-El in it.

Then there’s the Daredevils of the world-guys who had every reason to be bitter at the world for the cruel hand Fate had dealt them, yet, by dint of sheer determination and will, turned their handicaps into real strengths. Unlike Superman, who never really had to train in any real way, Daredevil honed his skills over years of the most intensive regimens. Its why in the comic book world, Hornhead can best most other characters in hand to hand combat-even when those other characters are vastly superior to him insofar as strength and so on go.

Game is ultimately an Inner Journey, and let’s be honest, when you’ve got the world on a string ala Superman, there’s not a heck of a lot to develop, is there? It’s why I’ve always said, that the best guys in the Game, are the Un-Naturals. These are the guys who had to grind it out. They are also the most fundamentally grounded.

Chuck makes another fantastic point, something Style himself says in The Game: choose your Dojo. There are several approaches out there to Game, and many, many teachers. Try to find one who’s closest to yourself in appearance, style, temperment, etc. Admittedly, for a guy like me, that was a bit of challenge, but I’m no stranger to difficulty, lol. I simply read all I could, observed guys I admired, and let my imagination do the rest.

“Admittedly, for a guy like me, that was a bit of challenge, but I’m no stranger to difficulty, lol.”

Obsidian,

you inadvertantly bring up an interesting point. There are no black PUA gurus that i can think of off the top of my head. I think that’s a testament to something you have said in the past about white dudes overthinking the thing – which i’ve admittedly done in the past.

Russian born. Came to the US at 9 years-old. Pretty heavy Russian Jewish ethos. I.E. always complaining about the pansyassification (her word) of the American male, but also very much into guys being smart.

Her sister (also quite hot) is with a guy who she basically loathes because he is not smarter than her.

Just for those who want to know apparently she pinched all the guys she meet. Most either said “ouch” or mocked her. She said I was the first who looked at her with indifference and thus the first who responded “correctly”

”””Just for those who want to know apparently she pinched all the guys she meet. Most either said “ouch” or mocked her. She said I was the first who looked at her with indifference and thus the first who responded “correctly””””””””’

“The black instructors mentioned though all openly disdain the highly intellectualized evo psych PUA approach, so it still kind of makes Chuck’s point about overthinking.”

I don’t know about that, Joe. I hear where Chuck’s coming from, and to be completely fair I have yet to actually investigate indepth guys like Tariq Nasheed, though I’m familiar with him-but if what Chuck says is true, then my response is that a lot of Brothas are losing out bigtime on essential nuts and bolts wrt Game.

I think it’s important to note that there is something to be said about a kin of anti-intellectual strain within the African American community, particularly among Black Men. I hate to say it, but there’s some truth to it. I’ve seen it firsthand, and chances are, you have too.

The flowchart and acronym heavy Game endorsed by a lot of our White brothers really filled in a lot of gaps for me in terms of my understanding of Human Socialsexual Dynamics.

So, yeah, a lot of Brothas need to get over their fear of not knowing stuff. We can’t afford to continue to be ignorant.

Vladimir writes:
[quote]If you’re making elementary mistakes… talking to women with the same no-nonsense attitude and manly humor as you do with men, etc.[/quote]

Hold up, what’s considered a manly sense of humor? Is black humor considered manly? Anthony Jeselnik? Sarah Silverman has been called “dude funny”? Appealing to girls do you mean more of a Dane Cook sensibility? I’m sincerely asking.

Good god, how beta can all of this self-validation of a guy’s own looks get here.

That list of many things above (to figure it out) is too complicated and leaves way too much room for inaccurate or biased results.

It’s very simple to find out not only how good-looking you are (but then easily incorporate how much game, or lack of game, you have at the same time):

Get a bunch of pics of yourself on flickr or a similar site. Have people you know vote on which ones look the most like you in person. Put the two or three that get the most votes on Hot or Not. People tend to grade a little generously there, so subtract a point from the average score you get. And that’s your answer.

Then you can compare yourself to the girls of similar rating on the site. Compare that to the consensus of those from your real life who will date and fuck you, and it’s easy to see if your actions are helping or hurting your sex life in the real world.

Eatern European? And she married you, a black guy? You’re like PA’s worst nightmare.

I’m on record as being very supportive of black guys like David Alexander getting themselves a nice Jewish girl, so it’s a miss, Joe.

But that’s not really what you wanted talk to me about, is it?

And my answer is still NO.

For the last time, Joe, my fan club already has a president, I’m happy with her, so we thank you for your interest but we regret to inform you that we are not looking to fill the position at this time.

We encourage you to visit our Web site, click on the “become a fan” link, and register to receive our free e-newsletter, which has information on our latest events, including the upcoming Fan Appreciation Day.

Game is ultimately an Inner Journey, and let’s be honest, when you’ve got the world on a string ala Superman, there’s not a heck of a lot to develop, is there? It’s why I’ve always said, that the best guys in the Game, are the Un-Naturals. These are the guys who had to grind it out. They are also the most fundamentally grounded.

When something is earned, it’s worth more, just like broken bones are often stronger after they heal.

I recently returned home after a long time in the Army, and it’s been interesting to see how so many of the “good looking” guys from growing up, who always had an easy time with women, are now generally soft in all aspects of their lives. They didn’t have to struggle with basic things like sex from early on, and now the effect is showing.

Okay so you have singlehandedly disproven a lot of what Roissy says, which is that game trumps looks. DOES IT?

If you’re HOT, you get lots of girls into you without having to do ANYTHING. That translates into more momentum towards you, more respect and more social proof that you just use.

Similar things if people know you’re rich or can hook them up.

Whereas GAME requires you consciously have to do something. Your friend Mr. A who is HOT, doesn’t have to waste his time learning techniques to get women attracted. He can just be himself, which is also attractive.

BOTTOM LINE: guys should focus on looking their best FIRST, improving the fundamentals FIRST, and then learn techniques!!!!!

One red-headed dude I used to hang out with would get all kind of attention from women just because he was a (rare) red-head. They would always look at him.. and not me *flies into jealous rage*

” these code names are fucking retarded. Lovedrop. Matador. Mystery.”

Yeah need some like Norwegian Black Metal code names instead.

“Although Strauss belatedly makes mention of this same epiphany later in his book, he gives it short shrift, but I noticed right away: with a good haircut, nice clothes, and an overall better appearance, your odds with women improve dramatically. ”

Yes a large number of chicks are very fashion conscious and for instance will check out a dudes shoes to see if they are clean and use that to judge him (I myself am neat freak types and am always clean and have recieved compliments from hot chicks like 10s in my book for this and it is all good)

[…] a Venusian Arts coach, guest-posts at Roissy in DC on gameless PUA instructors teaching useless skills: That’s one of the things that pisses me off about all these people coming out about “natural […]

I am rather late to the commentary, but I do agree with Knack’s post. Good looks DO matter, and there are plenty of academic studies in psychology and business to demonstrate that. For example, promotions are more likely for someone who is good looking AND competent than average looking and competent. Heck, even military basic training forces its soldiers to have their uniforms, hair and boots perfect because of the psychological impact it has. It is common sense for people to respond more positively to someone who is good looking. Even if you are average looking, being well groomed will gain major points because it demonstrates that you have respect for your appearance, and it will boost your confidence. This all helps in landing partners, though I wouldn’t limit this to the realm of dating. It’s a general part of being influential and maintaining a good image.

However, there is a nuance to this that I would like to point out and elaborate on for the HBD crowd. Upper middle class people, who have a certain gene-set care very much about how well groomed and dressed someone is when selecting a mate. It doesn’t have to be expensive labels, and the looks don’t have to be a 10/10. This is never expressed or articulated, but it occurs on a subconscious level. Women will respond to a well-groomed male because such people tend to come from good backgrounds and in general good families. Women do respond to this, especially more traditional women from good families that are looking for provider types. And what is a gold mine for such women? Marrying an alpha male who is also the provider type and from an upper-middle class background (higher social status).

Many rules of social etiquette are reflected in good grooming (ie. improving your looks the best you can). Guys who could grasp this had a leg up over their competition, since those of higher social status tend to be more sensitive to social etiquette that demanded proper grooming (remember, a guy can instantly up his hotness level by wearing a good suit… many psychological studies have been done regarding this). Think about the alpha males of the old Hollywood movies. They got women wet like crazy, by being total alphas and were also completely classy. Even the mafia bosses! This is not the case in America anymore, but with those from more traditional societies such as the oil-rich Middle Eastern countries (now THOSE men are alpha! They have even have no qualms about slapping around their women)..well, let’s say I have spent enough time in those circles, as well as diplomatic ones, to understand that this still exists.

My concluding point is this: uglier guys do have to work harder, but they can still get extra points in the looks department to help give them a jump start through good grooming for two reasons: 1) it boosts inner confidence that is reflected in body language; 2) to women from good families, it indicates a man from a higher social status (and therefore better genetics) than his sweat shirt, sandal wearing ghetto-loving peers.

Tupac, that may be true, but I have also seem well to do women with men they percieved to be of high social status stand by them while he had affairs and flirted with young girls. Part of PUA is to raise your social status to attract women. My argument is that good grooming is another way to raise social status (more than good grooming is needed to maintain it, though).

I spent my life growing up around ambassadors, politicians and diplomats. I have also spent a lot of time living a more “normal” life. The differences in what is perceived to be attractive is striking. There is a really ugly truth nobody seems to speak about, and that is the fact that in higher social circles, there is a different set of rules. The ultimate subconscious purpose is to preserve certain genetic traits. I’ve seen working class guys (no matter how handsome or “alpha”) walking into parties attended by women of higher social circles of various levels of hotness who would normally have problems keeping women off them, but walking away alone and rejected. Women in these circles artificially inflate their sense of worth so high that they will automatically reject a poorly groomed guy to hold out for the James bond type of classy alpha males that they are used to seeing growing up. Status can be a really big deal, and physical appearance play a significant (though far from solitary) role.

To bring this back to Knack’s post (without derailing further), it is not just good looking guys that will work less to attract women, but also well groomed guys that give off an aura of class.

I might not have agreed with all the points of this article but when Knack made the statement below he lost all credence with me.

“As for myself, of the last 7 girls I have had, 5 have been under 20, and 3 of those were virgins. Have the bloodstains to show it.”

What an idiotic frat boy statement to make, anybody of over a certain age wouldn’t find this attitude big I’m 30 & all for hitting on younger girls, but I don’t hit on chicks if there young & naive, It’s like you aiming at the weak & as a pro I’d thought you have higher goals rather then just a notch count.

We’ve all had virgins but having a fit young women who knows what it’s all about is so much more fun.

1) Naturals started younger. They also made mistakes but the girls were younger and everyone was learning. So they are up to speed.

2) People who started later are like immigrants trying to learn a language. Hanging out with naturals will rub off on you if you try to learn the vibe and pick up mindsets and other things. You don’t have to have a conscious learning process to become good but you do have to immerse yourself.

3) Indirect guys like mystery are super-naturals. They try to engineer social situations that draw the girls into you AND they try to micromanage every little thing to get the best possible result. Best is relative though. A rockstar who is just being himself could arguably be said ot be more attractive. A very good looking dude who is being himself and constantly gets chicks is more attractive in my book as he is being real and getting the chicks without calculating.

4) There is this obsession in the community with looking bad and getting girls only based on psychological manipulation. I think it’s a little bit overblown, kind of like a woman who INSISTS on never using her looks to attract a guy. Do you really want to stagnate in your looks & money departments just to improve your GAME? That’s insecurity talking. Why do you want to make sure you can pull a supermodel while being homeless, when you can instead focus that energy on things that really give you value in life with more than just women … it will lead to a million implications that will build on each other and help you without you having to constantly run game.

5) Bad grooming usually is worse than bad looks. Insecurity is usually worse than lack of game. But to be honest, I sometimes wonder if therea re ways to get girls to chase you based on some deep-seated psychological subconcsious brain thing that they just can’t help themselves … like an itch they have to scratch. I’ve never seen it, and that means thse gurus must not be teaching a lot of students successfully.

I don’t know. I study this stuff myself. I’m decent looking but have rarely if ever been approached just because of my looks. I think it’s more about appearance than looks per se. You could have an average looking guy who is dressed up really well and a great looking guy who wears regular clothes and you know what? Believe it or not the so called average looking guy will kick his ass. That is assuming he has game. It’s really a combination of game and appearance. If I dressed up better plus had game I’d probably be unstoppable. THat’s something I need to work on. I think too many guys use the looks thing as an excuse. To me that’s bs. Too many guys think that way therefore it becomes THEIR reality and theres alone. A lot of it has to do with your belief sysytem. If you think you can’t and you don’t work on it then ofcourse you won’t get anywhere. Mystery and Neil Strauss good looking? Not really. Maybe these guys aren’t butt ugly but obviously it’s not their looks that is attracting women. Appearance yes because they know the importance of making yourself look good without necessarily being a GQ model.