Wow what an amazingly strange debate.... Thank God this film didn't get made.. I'd love to see a WB animated version of it like an elseworlds film, but **** it otherwise... I wouldn't want to see this sort of complete horse **** tripe put on screen, The only smart thing WB has done with Superman so far is cancel this damn film

Wow what an amazingly strange debate.... Thank God this film didn't get made.. I'd love to see a WB animated version of it like an elseworlds film, but **** it otherwise... I wouldn't want to see this sort of complete horse **** tripe put on screen, The only smart thing WB has done with Superman so far is cancel this damn film

Let me explain, I would never ever want to see this film in live-action especially with Nic Cage as Superman. I think it would have destroyed Superman on film before it even got restarted however, it did look so weird that I can't help but want to see it told in sone other format that wouldn't effect the character in a big way I.e animation or a graphic novel. It would do harm to Superman in live action but I would like to see it in those other formats.

This fear of the unknown that Tim Burton's Superman Lives still stirs up is hilarious to me. The claim that it's so much like Batman is so absurd. I have read the 1997 script by Wesley Strick that Tim Burton wanted to film. It would have been radically different than any Batman movie ever made and any Superman movie ever made before. In 1988 and 1989 Batman fans also feared that Tim Burton's Batman, especially with skinny comedian Michael Keaton as Batman/Bruce Wayne, and music by Prince, would have destroyed Batman on film before it even got restarted.

"The caped crusader may turn out to be a wimp," said the Wall Street Journal in 1988. http://www.timburtoncollective.com/articles/bat7.html If Burton's Batman had never been made then Keaton as Batman would still be thought of as a horrible idea for a movie, with comments like "Thank God that abomination didn't get made. Was that suppose to be a comedy? Epic FAILz. Dude that woulda sucked. WTF was they thinkin? was burton smokin crack? That aint Batman. lol Batwimp" etc. But Warners let Burton make that big budgeted movie, and it ended up being the huge success of the year, surprising everyone. Micheal Keaton became recognized as an impressive character actor with a range, that kind of range is also what appealed to Burton the idea of Nic Cage as Superman/Clark Kent.

In his book Burton on Burton, Tim Burton explained, "I was excited to be working with Nic because the way we were thinking about it, it would be the first time you would believe that nobody could recognize Clark Kent as Superman - that Nic could physically change his persona, so it wouldn't be as simplistic. Without doing make up or anything, Nic is the kind of actor who can pull something like that off. And we were talking to Kevin Spacey for Lex Luthor - he was perfect.

So the idea was you have this great actor and you, the audience, can understand him as a character. That's what intrigued me about it. And technically you could go to another level now - you wouldn't have to hang the guy from ****ing wires. The flying was terrible in those movies. Even seeing them at the time - I wasn't in movies - I was going, 'I don't know about this...' You could do that better, no problem.

It was called Superman Lives. I was pushing for it to be called Superman. I always hated those titles like Batman Forever. I thought, 'Batman Forever, that sounds like a tattoo somebody would get when their on drugs or something,' or something some kid would write in the yearbook to somebody else. I have high problems with some of those titles.

On the last Batman they did (Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin), I remember them thinking that it was so great, and I think they were taken aback when it got dissed so much. So, all of a sudden, Warners was getting bad press like they had destroyed a franchise. I think they were feeling the heat of that, since the overriding factor in Hollywood is fear - decisions are based on fear most of the time. And I think they were fearful that they were going to **** up another franchise. The way they saw it was, 'We don't want to do this unless it's going to be right.' And I didn't want to go into this unless it was going to be right either, because it's Superman. It's too much of a target.

Also, my original fear came true. I had thought, 'Okay, Jon Peters is producing. I've dealt with Jon before on Batman, and it was a nightmare, but I did it. So therefore I can probably deal with it again.' But this wasn't the case. I remember at one point saying to Warners, 'You've got three things here. You've got me, you've got Jon Peters, and you've got Warner Bros. And I can imagine a situation like one of those Spaghetti Western gunfights, where three people stare at each other for twenty minutes because they've each got different ideas.' And that turned out to be the case. The truth of the matter is, if it ever had a chance of ever getting done, then Warners should have got rid of me or Jon, and let me or Jon make the film. Jon had his own ideas, Warners had its own fears, and I had my own thoughts. And Jon, he's like a whirlwind, its like trying to control the weather. It's a very difficult energy to deal with. And I basically wasted a year.

It was terrible because you think you're working on something and you're not, and you realize at the end of it all that it's a load of crap, because you're having all of these meetings and you're kind of working in a vacuum. It's one thing to work on something to make it better, and it's another thing just to spin you're wheels. It's fine if you get something done, but to go that hard and that long and not get anything done is just devastating, because really I'm in it to make things. I'm not in it to have these ******** meetings. Part of the joy is 'doing', and I spent a year not 'doing'."http://books.google.com/books?id=-GY...page&q&f=false

Kevin Spacey as Luthor was originally Tim Burton's idea for Superman Lives.
Kevin Spacey said, "I went in to meet Tim Burton, 10 or 11 years ago when Tim was going to do it. And apparently Tim wanted me to play the Lex Luther part but I never read a script."http://www.darkhorizons.com/intervie...erman-returns-
Courtney Cox was going to be Lois Lane in Superman Lives.

This would have been how Metropolis would have looked, that's the Daily Planet building. Which is appropriately different and lighter for Superman than the Gothic architecture of Gotham City in Tim Burton's Batman.

Unlike Gotham City in Tim Burton's Batman and Batman Returns which is mostly sets and miniatures at Pinewood Studios, Warner Studios and Universal Studios, Metropolis in Tim Burton's Superman Live was going to be filmed on location in an actual city - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, using actual existing buildings for the Daily Planet and the LexCorp Tower.

Tim Burton chose Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania's City-County Building to be the Daily Planet in Superman Lives.
The entrance of the Daily Planet on this concept art is a match with Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania's City-County Building, but the City-County Building is not a huge skyscraper so Burton must have planed to use a long miniature with the Daily Planet globe that sits on top of the building for the full shots of the Daily Planet. Warner Studios sound stages were reserved.

Tim Burton chose the huge glass-exterior Philip Johnson-designed PPG Place building in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to be Lex Luthor's LexCorp Tower in Superman Lives.

Chris Rock was going to be Jimmy Olsen. Comics2Film reported that Jack Larson, who played Jimmy Olsen on the George Reeves Superman TV show in the 1950s, expressed interest in playing Perry White because he was a huge fan of Chris Rock. Rumors flew of Tim Allen, who had originally been considered by Jon Peters for Luthor, possibly playing Brainiac or Jim Carrey. Tim Allen said he'd love to try his comedy chops in the role of Brainiac, the villain in Tim Burton's Superman, starring Nicolas Cage. "They immediately say Jim Carrey, but I wouldn't mind trying that." http://jam.canoe.ca/Movies/Artists/A...07/756335.html
Jim Carrey or Tim Allen as Brainiac sounds like Jon Peters' ideas. Brainiac was going to be either an Animatronical mechanised puppet by Stan Winston or Computer-generated with Kevin Spacey doing the voice. AICN reported that Kevin Spacey would play both Brainiac and Luthor, in a dual role. (This could actually lead credence to the rumors of Brainiac as a robot -- Spacey could voice the character -- and the merging of Brainiac and Luthor as "Luthiac", which is somewhat similar to the occurrence in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?")http://www.supermanhomepage.com/news...ews-movie/0304

__________________Half-man, half-bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octoberist

Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

I'm not getting into the Batman paralells argument again cause we'll never agree on that.

But on Cage. Just because Keaton worked as Batman doesn't mean Cage would've worked for Superman. You only have to have seen so many Nic Cage films to know he's not the right for Superman, all the Superman before be it Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Chris Reeve, Dean Cain, Tom Welling, Henry Cavill, Brandon Routh etc all looked like Superman. Different versions sure but they had specific looks. Cage who even though is 6 foot tall doesn't have the build or the face of a Superman. Now Keaton didn't need the face or build of a Bruce Wayne cause for him to become Batman he wore a mask. You only have to go back and watch Cage's films to see how he wasn't a fit for Superman, the guy is talented don't get me wrong but he doesn't display the right kind of confidence needed for Superman, something all previous Superman actors had. Let's not forget the fact that the guy looked ridiculous in the suits we've seen the pictures. The fact is he wouldn't have been Sueran he'd have been Nic Cage playing Superman and the most important thing when you see Superman is he looks like he's stepped straight out if the comics.

Now if you think he'd have been fine then that's OK your opinion and Cage isn't a bad actor but in my opinion he was wrong for Superman.

This one was t so bad but he just doesn't look right:

This one was just awful:

On the film though WBs obviously went with Wild Wild West which was a mega flop but they had Will Smith who was and still is massive at the BO so you can't blame them for choosing Wild over this but I suppose looking back they might aswell have cause even if it had been a flop Wild was anyway.

I agree. Sounds like total ****. Again. Would be nice to see as an elseworlds animated film. But **** that stupid lame **** otherwise

Why would you want to see an animated movie of something that you think is stupid lame ****?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

This one was just awful:

I agree that it looks awful in this photo, but this was clearly in the very early stage of fitting and designing the Superman costume, and Cage still had his long hair from the Con Air movie at that point. Attempting to judge what he would have looked like in the movie with this photo is not at all accurate.

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This one was t so bad but he just doesn't look right:

This is Cage trying on the finished Superman costume, this is much closer to how he would look in the film, but the look is still not complete since he's not wearing his Superman wig and this was not a professional promotional picture of the finished look.

__________________Half-man, half-bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octoberist

Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

It's like proclaiming the 1989 Batman movie an abomination based only on early pre-production art and designs photos and assuming that is actually what the film looks like.
Is this what Tim Burton's 1989 Batman movie looks like? No. It's just the early stages of designs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

Now Keaton didn't need the face or build of a Bruce Wayne cause for him to become Batman he wore a mask.

Micheal Keaton wasn't just Batman, he wasn't wearing the cowl all the time, he was also Bruce Wayne, and although he didn't look like Lewis Wilson or Robert Lowery or Adam West or even Bruce Wayne in the comic books, he manged to pull off the alter ego convincingly for his version and the film was a massive success, so much so that he was asked to return for a sequel with Tim Burton's Batman Returns, and was offered even more money to return for Joel Schumacher's Batman Forever, but he turned it down.

Quote:

all the Superman before be it Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Chris Reeve, Dean Cain, Tom Welling, Henry Cavill, Brandon Routh etc all looked like Superman. Different versions sure but they had specific looks.

The features of Superman have varied from actor to actor. They have not all had the same jaw, the same nose, eyes, smile, or the same build, same voice at all.

Quote:

Cage who even though is 6 foot tall doesn't have the build or the face of a Superman.

Nic Cage was/is a versatile character actor. I believe he could have pulled off the roles of both Clark Kent and Superman for his and Tim Burton's version.

At the New York offices of DC Comics, an artist was imposing a picture of Nicolas Cage onto a sketch of Superman. Perhaps Cage as Superman was no more odd a prospect than Michael Keaton as Batman. Perhaps, thought the cartoonist, doodling an S curl onto Cage's forehead, this could work after all. http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,283376,00.html

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Nic Cage in the other suit with the long hair was the suit he was going to have at the end of the film when the eradictor suit came off.

No, that was just an early prototype suit. Not a finished suit.

Quote:

Nic Cage looks nothing like Superman. He has none of the required looks for the part at all, all the Superman before had something in their looks, Nic Cage would have been Nic Cage in a Superman suit.

That's the same thing many people said about Michael Keaton cast as Batman/Bruce Wayne in 1988 and 1989 before the movie hit theaters.

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Look we don't agree so why do u constantly try to convince me otherwise? Your the only person I know on here that would have accepted Nic Cage.

I'm defending something that I like and feel is worth defending. I do know other people on here that would have accepted Nic Cage.

__________________Half-man, half-bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octoberist

Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

You assume that only a minority of the public would have accepted Cage as Superman/Clark Kent and that the movie would have flopped, and that is the same thing that was assumed by many of Keaton as Batman/Bruce Wayne. Also all of the Batman/Bruce Wayne actors before Keaton had been obscure unknowns.

__________________Half-man, half-bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octoberist

Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

I never said it would've flopped infact if u read my post above I actually said WBs might aswell have made it seen as though Wild Wild West flopped anyway.

Batman is not Superman, it'd be like getting Ray Winstone to play James Bond. He just isn't right for the part, Superman needs to be an unknown. That's part of what made the 1978 film work you can't have a known actor cause people go oh its so and so in a Superman suit.

You said Superman Lives would have destroyed the Superman franchise, but I guess you've changed you're opinion on that now.

I definitely agree that they should have let Tim Burton make Superman Lives in 1997/1998 instead of green lighting Barry Sonnenfeld's Wild Wild West in 1998. It shows Warners poor judgement that Warner co-chairman Bob Daly thought Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin starring George Clooney, Chris O'Donnell, Schwarzenegger, Uma Thurman and Alicia Silverstone was a sure bet to be a hit just because Joel Schumacher's Batman Forever starring Chris O'Donnell (but primarily starring Val Kilmer, Jim Carrey, Nicole Kidman and Tommy Lee Jones) was a hit and thought Barry Sonnenfeld's Wild Wild West starring Will Smith was a sure bet to be a hit just because Barry Sonnenfeld's Men in Black starring Will Smith (and Tommy Lee Jones) was a hit. Daly was trying to play it safe and trying to ride on past successes, rather than providing something with some heart, uniqueness and some originality. While audiences like nostalgia, audiences also like to see something different.

While most Superman actors were unknowns before playing their version of Superman, I don't agree that an actor must be an unknown to convincingly play a version of Superman successfully, and I also don't regard Henry Cavill as an unknown. I know him from Immortals which he starred in with Mickey Rourke and Woody Allen's Whatever Works with Larry David.

__________________Half-man, half-bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octoberist

Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

You'd want to watch it sarcastically? As long as you'd buy it, you could watch it however you want. But unfortunately for all of us Superman Lives was never made in either live-action or animation. The closest thing we have to it on film is the Superman: Doomsday animated movie, which is lame to me. The action involving Doomsday was over pretty fast for a movie called Doomsday. The animation was bland. The added storylines were a bore. Jimmy Olsen getting a job at a trashy magazine? I couldn't care less about that. I was really disappointed with that.

__________________Half-man, half-bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octoberist

Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

I think I may have hastely said destroyed the franchise but what I meant was if it flopped after Batman & Robin did it could've destroyed comic book movies before they even really got out of the starting blocks. But we'll never know, I have to admit this has to be the most interesting of the Superman projects that didn't make it to the screen. I did like the first half of Dan Gilroys script.

I actually said unknown or not as well known which Henry Cavill is the latter, most people I know still don't know who he is. We'll have to agree to disagree but if you cast a star as Superman I think you only see the actor.

I actually liked Superman Doomsday but I totally get your points about it. I wouldn't have had a problem with the animation if they'd have gotten Daly or Newbern in because Superman looked so much like the DCAU Superman, it just seemed weird having that animation with Adam Baldwin's voice. There's bits of it I liked and bits I didn't, the film really does go downhill after Superman vs Doomsday but at least the Kevin Smith Giant Spider cameo was funny.

Nerdist.com: Okay Jon, let’s get it straight from you. Why are you obsessed with a movie that for all intents and purposes should never have gotten as far as it did?

Jon Schnepp: Actually, I’m of the opinion that this movie should have been made. If this film was made, it would have changed the way a lot of films were done in the future (now our past), and opened up a lot more creativity in the realms of filmmaking and approaching the ideas of adaptation. Just imagine how different superhero films, and genre films in general, would have been. The ripple effect is staggering! This film is a perfect example of many other projects that were stopped after a considerable amount of work had been done, and this project especially holds a certain appeal to me, because it would have been going in a different and unique direction with a character that had been around for at that time almost 60 years. All the artwork slowly released over the last fifteen years, especially after the release of “Superman Returns,” really made me want to know more about this unmade project.

Nerdist.com: You’ve traditionally worked in animation and illustration; what makes you want to pursue a documentary?

Jon Schnepp: I’ve cut together several BTS docs in the past as well as having edited features and many TV series, and have found that, to me, making a documentary is in many ways very similar to making a narrative. It’s all about story, and successfully telling it, be it from a script with actors, props and sets, or in animated form, segmented into storyboards and radio plays and final composites. The documentary also allows interesting and unique story breakdowns, flashbacks, flash forwards, voiceover, and combinations of stills, video, film, and animation. In other words, it’s going to be very exciting and creatively rewarding to me to make this documentary now.

Nerdist.com: What phase of pre-production are you in?

Jon Schnepp: I’m still researching and setting up interviews, and am waiting on hearing back from several folks. I have the spine of the documentary completely laid out, with its beginning, middle, and end, plus lots of fun surprises. I’m approaching this story much like a private investigator, with many of the stories to be told out of sequence, intercut with both the future and the past, and to eventually add up to the “why this did not happen” at the end. Think about this documentary as a slice of various perspectives creating a whole, told with interviews and animation and recreations.

Nerdist.com: Has anyone involved in Superman Lives contacted you to get involved with the documentary, and who are you pursuing or hoping will sit down with you?

Jon Schnepp: Actually, lots of people involved in the making of Superman Lives contacted me through the Kickstarter, as well as fans who have been collecting images over the years just like me. I have gotten okays for interviews from several of the main people involved in this project, but I’m still waiting to hear back from Nicolas Cage and Tim Burton.

Nerdist.com: Have you heard from Warners or DC?

Jon Schnepp: Not yet, but I will be talking with them eventually. I am not making a negative or “slam” documentary; In fact, quite to the contrary, I’m going to be showing the creative process, from inside the studio perspective, and how projects become a reality or how they eventually transform into something else. WB and DC should be quite happy with what I’ve got planned, and I hope they will give me full access to the materials I’ll need to make this doc stand out.

Nerdist.com: It would seem like they were far enough along in pre-production that some behind the scenes stuff may have been shot for the film; Any chance of you getting access to that gold mine?

Huffington Post: Speaking of the fickle nature of moviemaking, someone has started a Kickstarter campaign for a documentary about Superman Lives. Have you head about that?

Tim Burton: Somebody told me about that. It might be more interesting than the movie, that's for sure.
They (Warners) put a lot of money into Superman Lives. What's interesting, too, is if we had been able to make the movie the way we wanted to back then. It was like Batman all those years ago; there was always a bit of controversy. Like, "Oh, it's too dark," it's like, well, now it looks like a light-hearted romp. We were trying to explore the more human side of the character and get into that whole thing. You know, whatever. There's all sorts of forces at work: Where the studio's at, the chemistry of the people and the producers. I think that's why it's hard to understand why certain things go down.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2600700.html

__________________Half-man, half-bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Manbat I adore you, those articles were amazing thanks!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octoberist

Honesty, God bless you Man-Bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore
You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say

Really looking forward to that documentary, really hope he gets access to what he needs too and gets interviews with Burton and Cage. He didn't seem to mention Sandra Bullock though so wonder if he's already got an interview with her lined up or if he's given up on her or something.

I think its possible Cage could have been a great Superman. The problem with Cage is that sometimes he's amazing, and sometimes he's awful. The one thing I'm not convinced about either is his voice... when he speaks there's a cadence that isn't very Superman-esque.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrow_22

Look for reports of mysterious heroism in the next 6 years. Then check back on this thread

I'm defending something that I like and feel is worth defending. I do know other people on here that would have accepted Nic Cage.

I'm with you Man-Bat, I have been forever fascinated by Superman Lives ever since I read about it from this great book called "The greatest sci-fi movies never made". Highly recommened read.

Of course that "evening with Kevin Smith" didn't do any favours to people's perception on Burton's Superman Lives, which is really a shame. Superman was going to be different and interesting. But for some fans Superman can not be different. I believe it would have been a great film with a great cast.

What was William Wisher's Superman Lives script? Did he rewrite after Dan Gilroy?

I think Wisher's script was completely his own, if my memory serves me correct. I think his script got into consideration because there was lot's of positive feedback on it in the internet or something.