Do you really think they would have lost as many players and have as little actual content added to the game if they had released a more finished product to begin with?

Maybe, maybe not. You have to remember that this is the 'entitlement' generation. There will still be that crowd of players who are displeased and are still going to complain no matter how good the product is.

Maybe, maybe not. You have to remember that this is the 'entitlement' generation. There will still be that crowd of players who are displeased and are still going to complain no matter how good the product is.

For sure, I just know that everyone I played with quit while they developed transfers, if they had transfers ready to fight the normal population drop while developing more content I'm quite sure more people would have remained playing the game. The same applies now I think, months and months with no content outside raiding while they develop free to play features.

They are never finished, ever... and saying that it wasn't released "finished" is just something else to complain about.

Sure but there is a difference between balancing changes, bugs introduced with new content additions and core features like transfers and LFD system, while core systems can and should be developed along the way to improve the game it should never be done at the expense of content, this is where BW has done it wrong out of necessity due to launching a very incomplete game.

Like I said, transfers is something that should have been planned for as soon as they decided on a multi server structure and been developed along with the game. That is the most clear example.

It is the only MMO outside of wow I actually hit level cap on. It's engrossing, and has a good progression.

Unfortunately, I lost all reason to play as soon as I hit endgame. I didn't really want to start running heroics, didn't want to have to start gearing for pvp, didn't care for dailies.

I just wanted more story.

Kind of silly to feature a story driven MMO, then have the story kind of just... "To Be Continued"

I get that it isn't probable to have some kind of story treadmill, but when your model is to have a very compelling journey to max level, it's hard to not have "Ye Typical Endgame" feel underwhelming esp when the journey was actually good fun. I manage to skip out a lot of the non-class quests in many areas simply because of massive hutball days. Lowbie pvp was tightly tuned, and felt really good. You could stand toe-to-toe with someone 20 levels higher and with some teamwork, outplay and beat him. (they obviously have more tools, and therefore an advantage, but health and damage is normalized, and pvp stats don't start showing up on gear until 50)

The graphics were decent. The bugs, while numerous, were largely not gamebreaking, and those who did use the bugs to cheat were generally actioned accordingly. The game worlds had a decent feel, the story delivered.

They are never finished, ever... and saying that it wasn't released "finished" is just something else to complain about.

Really sucks when the vast majority of a games potential players just sit around demanding new material be made exactly like another developers work while chanting the mantra "MOAR!!!"

When you have a PTS that doesn't even allow players to copy their toons over, I think that just goes to show how unfinished the product was. Considering that went on during the 1.2 test period 4-5 months after the game was launched speaks volumes.

From a customer standpoint I couldn't give a flying fuck about their reasonings for launching an unfinished product, I did however give them 4-5 months of patience and understanding that some things would need to be added post launch. They then proceeded to spend that on making transfers that to be blunt anyone with half a brain would realize was needed with a multi server structure, now they once again spending months and months of time developing features so they can switch to free to play.

Do you really think they would have lost as many players and have as little actual content added to the game if they had released a more finished product to begin with?

From a customer standpoint.... you have tons of options you can go for, go for it. You don't have to sub for a game which just releases an get into the usual "not finished yet, coming soon" whirlewind. Anyone who played at least 1 or 2 mmos should know this but for some reason people just ignore reality. You will never launch an MMO with all features which "should" be in there because you started delevoping prior to what is now "standart" for the spoiled customer base. They didn't bring tons of stuff but they delivered the most needed asap. But guess what happened.... after whatever change, the exact same guys startet complaining about something else. UI, PvP bracket, faction warzones, operation bug fixes.... just continue the list. Never ever has anyone of these guys said... well, cool we got this fixed, let's have some fun with it and while I'm at it try to fix this other stuff. Nope, the game is shit because.... which turned into... game goes F2P in 2 months, then in 3 months, then in.... months and now... all these guys come along... well I predicted it. Have there been mistakes on the way? Sure but please go ahead and show any other game which didn't make mistakes in the process. It's not gonna happen and that got nothing to do with being incompetent.

To answer your question... SWTOR would have lost people because it's nothing new. I like it much more than WoW or EQ2 but that's probably not because the concept is much different but the background and the graphic style. Aside of this it has much less content than either of these games because they've been out for years so to expect current subscribers of these games to cancel and spend another 5-6 years in SWTOR to build up their "reputation" max char amount etc. well not even the majority is "that" stupid .

Originally Posted by notorious98

When you have a PTS that doesn't even allow players to copy their toons over, I think that just goes to show how unfinished the product was. Considering that went on during the 1.2 test period 4-5 months after the game was launched speaks volumes.

I'm not sure but I think the problem is elsewhere though, I don't know where. But that we could transfer with 1.3 but not anymore in 1.4 doesn't make any sense. The first transfer process was so smooth, I really thought they had figured it all out because they were the smoothest transfer I've ever experienced in mmo history. I was rather stunned that we couldn't transfer toons for 1.4 onto the pts.

From a customer standpoint.... you have tons of options you can go for, go for it. You don't have to sub for a game which just releases an get into the usual "not finished yet, coming soon" whirlewind. Anyone who played at least 1 or 2 mmos should know this but for some reason people just ignore reality.

The reality is that as a customer I expect the product to be at the very least functional to the point where it only needs maintenance and content additions, not being half built in need of foundation work, this has nothing to do with other products and their shortcomings, that's just an excuse gamers make for developers, if it would have been any other product you wouldn't be as forgiving, hell not even for a single player game would it be acceptable by most gamers, this is the only reason developers get away with it.

You also have to look at what was missing and what was added, like I said regarding transfers, the first thing the lead developers should have asked them selfs after taking the decision to use a multi server structure was "what features do we need as a consequence of that", not doing so is simply negligent and not something we as customers should have to accept being developed after the game is launched, it's not even subjective if it would be needed or not, it's a simple fact any gamer that played MMOs could have told them.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

You will never launch an MMO with all features which "should" be in there because you started delevoping prior to what is now "standart" for the spoiled customer base. They didn't bring tons of stuff but they delivered the most needed asap. But guess what happened.... after whatever change, the exact same guys startet complaining about something else. UI, PvP bracket, faction warzones, operation bug fixes.... just continue the list. Never ever has anyone of these guys said... well, cool we got this fixed, let's have some fun with it and while I'm at it try to fix this other stuff.

Yet most players I played with had little to no issues with the game it self, sure it had issues but up to 1.2 it was worked on at a reasonable pace. What made them all leave was a combination of low population issues with the lack of transfers to solve that issue and the obvious lack of content coming due to them focusing months of development on transfers and LFD.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

To answer your question... SWTOR would have lost people because it's nothing new.

I never said it wouldn't lose players, what I asked was if you thought it would have lost as many if they have core features like transfers, customizable UI and LFD ready at launch.

The reality is that as a customer I expect the product to be at the very least functional to the point where it only needs maintenance and content additions, not being half built in need of foundation work, this has nothing to do with other products and their shortcomings, that's just an excuse gamers make for developers, if it would have been any other product you wouldn't be as forgiving, hell not even for a single player game would it be acceptable by most gamers, this is the only reason developers get away with it.

Could you level your character form 1-50 without problems yes or no?

Originally Posted by Alyssa

You also have to look at what was missing and what was added, like I said regarding transfers, the first thing the lead developers should have asked them selfs after taking the decision to use a multi server structure was "what features do we need as a consequence of that", not doing so is simply negligent and not something we as customers should have to accept being developed after the game is launched, it's not even subjective if it would be needed or not, it's a simple fact any gamer that played MMOs could have told them.

You wouldn't have any point if the game would have done so well that most of the servers would have been filled with people. Can you predict this at the beginning and already claim resources to work on something "in case" it happenes? I'm not sure you every worked on a serious large scale project.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

Yet most players I played with had little to no issues with the game it self, sure it had issues but up to 1.2 it was worked on at a reasonable pace. What made them all leave was a combination of low population issues with the lack of transfers to solve that issue and the obvious lack of content coming due to them focusing months of development on transfers and LFD.

I'm sure their trial and error with open world PvP didn't hold them up on future content?! I'm sure their bugfest of EV wasn't an issue to not create more operations in a short amount of time?! They were also completely not hyped about their legacy, thinking it would be such an amazing feature while forgetting to actually add stuff which would make it amazing? (family tree... what a joke). Though that's not what surprised me. What did surprise me was the amount of people which didn't "get" that the game had several serious issues which needed to be solved before you could move ahead. Scraping Illum was a big downer and a big issue for a kinda big part of the game experience. No open world PvP and I don't see one coming sometimes soon.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

I never said it wouldn't lose players, what I asked was if you thought it would have lost as many if they have core features like transfers, customizable UI and LFD ready at launch.

I'm sure we would be all better people if we wouldn't know greed, jealousy and ignorance. Unfortunately it is what it is and to talk hypothetically what would be "if" is a waste of time. It's logical that more features would have hold players longer... .

You wouldn't have any point if the game would have done so well that most of the servers would have been filled with people. Can you predict this at the beginning and already claim resources to work on something "in case" it happenes? I'm not sure you every worked on a serious large scale project.

In the case of server transfers I could, we have almost a decade of MMOs on the market that all have needed it in one way shape or form if they use multi server structure, it's not a question if you need transfers with that server structure but when.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

I'm sure their trial and error with open world PvP didn't hold them up on future content?! I'm sure their bugfest of EV wasn't an issue to not create more operations in a short amount of time?! They were also completely not hyped about their legacy, thinking it would be such an amazing feature while forgetting to actually add stuff which would make it amazing? (family tree... what a joke). Though that's not what surprised me. What did surprise me was the amount of people which didn't "get" that the game had several serious issues which needed to be solved before you could move ahead. Scraping Illum was a big downer and a big issue for a kinda big part of the game experience. No open world PvP and I don't see one coming sometimes soon.

Which could have been worked on instead of transfers, still don't really see your point here, the people I played with still quit due to lack of transfers and diminished content for the foreseeable future due to the need of development time on transfers, that and an ever diminishing fleet population, when we canceled it was around 30-40 during prime time on Imperial side...

Originally Posted by Psychlon

I'm sure we would be all better people if we wouldn't know greed, jealousy and ignorance. Unfortunately it is what it is and to talk hypothetically what would be "if" is a waste of time. It's logical that more features would have hold players longer... .

So why should we accept that the game was released unfinished as far as core features goes then? You agree that if the core features was included at launch they would have had a better retention rate hence they made a bad call to launch when they did, it's not something we as customers should make excuses for, if it had been another product like a car, house, phone/internet service and so on you would most likely be pissed demanding compensation.

I played Sith Inquisitor and a Bountyhunter in the beginning time and had no problems whatsoever at any point...

Originally Posted by Alyssa

In the case of server transfers I could, we have almost a decade of MMOs on the market that all have needed it in one way shape or form if they use multi server structure, it's not a question if you need transfers with that server structure but when.

Well the "when" is the point.. but I guess you'd rather prefered transfers 2 months prior with hundreds of thousands of player complaining that their stuff is missing and all?!..

Originally Posted by Alyssa

Which could have been worked on instead of transfers, still don't really see your point here, the people I played with still quit due to lack of transfers and diminished content for the foreseeable future due to the need of development time on transfers, that and an ever diminishing fleet population, when we canceled it was around 30-40 during prime time on Imperial side...

You are still arguing from a point that... "if they had implemented it with launch".. well they haven't, I guess you will have to alter your base before starting to argue. Otherwise this whole discussion is at least from your site completely hypothetical... and therefor pointless.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

So why should we accept that the game was released unfinished as far as core features goes then? You agree that if the core features was included at launch they would have had a better retention rate hence they made a bad call to launch when they did, it's not something we as customers should make excuses for, if it had been another product like a car, house, phone/internet service and so on you would most likely be pissed demanding compensation.

You don't have to accept anything.. you just don't play it or whatever... I don't see your point. I stopped playing Vanguard when I've seen what state the game was in, I stopped playing AoC when I've seen what shape it was in and so on. Stop playing it and stop lurking around just to let everyone know why you left the game. It doesn't matter, you left.

I played Sith Inquisitor and a Bountyhunter in the beginning time and had no problems whatsoever at any point...

And that naturally excludes the possibility that anyone else had issues.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

Well the "when" is the point.. but I guess you'd rather prefered transfers 2 months prior with hundreds of thousands of player complaining that their stuff is missing and all?!..

I'd prefer it prior to release simply because I don't want to sit around waiting for it with less than 100 players active during prime time, how they solve it is not my concern much like it's not your concern how the car sales man makes sure you get tires on your new car, you just expect them to be there when you buy it.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

You are still arguing from a point that... "if they had implemented it with launch".. well they haven't, I guess you will have to alter your base before starting to argue. Otherwise this whole discussion is at least from your site completely hypothetical... and therefor pointless.

What does that have to do with why the people I played with quit, it's a simple cause and effect scenario where you can pinpoint what the issue was and how it could have been avoided, it's nothing hypothetical about knowing that a group of players are relatively happy with the game but the lack of players on the server and inability to correct that issue drove them away from it.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

You don't have to accept anything.. you just don't play it or whatever... I don't see your point. I stopped playing Vanguard when I've seen what state the game was in, I stopped playing AoC when I've seen what shape it was in and so on. Stop playing it and stop lurking around just to let everyone know why you left the game. It doesn't matter, you left.

So your argument is to not have a discussion...on a forum...like really?

And that naturally excludes the possibility that anyone else had issues.

You said

there was issues along the way.

, I only said that for two classes there was no issue whatsoever, that has nothing to do if I play the class or anyone else. The overall reception about 1-50 was very positive. There were some problems with agents if I remember and probably with another class story.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

I'd prefer it prior to release simply because I don't want to sit around waiting for it with less than 100 players active during prime time, how they solve it is not my concern much like it's not your concern how the car sales man makes sure you get tires on your new car, you just expect them to be there when you buy it.

Everyone, myself included, would have prefered to have it prior launch. But for whatever reason it wasn't possible. If your car salesman tells you that all tires are sold out and he will get the next delivery in 1-2 weeks... you just deal with it or go to another car salesman.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

What does that have to do with why the people I played with quit, it's a simple cause and effect scenario where you can pinpoint what the issue was and how it could have been avoided, it's nothing hypothetical about knowing that a group of players are relatively happy with the game but the lack of players on the server and inability to correct that issue drove them away from it.

It is very much hypothetical because you don't take in consideration what else they would have dropt and what would have been the outcome of that. You just claim that they should have worked with Bioware Austin in a parallel universe to finish everything and then they would have had a much better outcome.

If they would have finished everyting else before the game would launch in march or april? How many people do you think would have even bothered to look into the game with GW2 and D3 around the corner? Half a million? 750k?

So your argument is to not have a discussion...on a forum...like really?[/QUOTE]

You said , I only said that for two classes there was no issue whatsoever, that has nothing to do if I play the class or anyone else. The overall reception about 1-50 was very positive. There were some problems with agents if I remember and probably with another class story.

No you said that you had no issues and then proceeded to make the assumption that no one else could have had issue with those classes, you seem to come back to this way of thinking a lot.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

Everyone, myself included, would have prefered to have it prior launch. But for whatever reason it wasn't possible. If your car salesman tells you that all tires are sold out and he will get the next delivery in 1-2 weeks... you just deal with it or go to another car salesman.

Sure, can you point me to the pre launch announcement where BW informs us of their lack of foresight resulting in the need to spend months developing transfers?

Originally Posted by Psychlon

It is very much hypothetical because you don't take in consideration what else they would have dropt and what would have been the outcome of that. You just claim that they should have worked with Bioware Austin in a parallel universe to finish everything and then they would have had a much better outcome.

If they would have had to drop something else for it then the product obviously wasn't ready for launch and as such should have been finished first, and it's not hypothetical that the inclusion of transfers at launch would have saved them well over 15 subscribers at the point we canceled, if we're never to discuss what went wrong and how it could have been avoided but instead just go "derp...lets move to the next MMO and see if it's better" then there will never be improvements, same as using the "accept it because that's how it is" approach instead of raising the bar of what to expect at launch will pave the way for more developers to try and launch unfinished products.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

If they would have finished everyting else before the game would launch in march or april? How many people do you think would have even bothered to look into the game with GW2 and D3 around the corner? Half a million? 750k?

Same as bought it to begin with or possibly more as it wouldn't have as bad reviews from beta experiences, gamers can play more than one game you know and besides GW2 would have been months away, even more would have been fed up with WoW's lack of content and D3 isn't the same type of game even.

I played Sith Inquisitor and a Bountyhunter in the beginning time and had no problems whatsoever at any point...

Originally Posted by Alyssa

And that naturally excludes the possibility that anyone else had issues.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

No you said that you had no issues and then proceeded to make the assumption that no one else could have had issue with those classes, you seem to come back to this way of thinking a lot.

not it just seems that me and my over 30 guild mates were the only people in the entire world which had no whatsoever issue with their class... because as you said... everyone had issues...

Originally Posted by Alyssa

Sure, can you point me to the pre launch announcement where BW informs us of their lack of foresight resulting in the need to spend months developing transfers?

sure you can point me to the pre launch announcement that transfers/ group findern and custom UI will all be included in the game...

Originally Posted by Alyssa

If they would have had to drop something else for it then the product obviously wasn't ready for launch and as such should have been finished first, and it's not hypothetical that the inclusion of transfers at launch would have saved them well over 15 subscribers at the point we canceled, if we're never to discuss what went wrong and how it could have been avoided but instead just go "derp...lets move to the next MMO and see if it's better" then there will never be improvements, same as using the "accept it because that's how it is" approach instead of raising the bar of what to expect at launch will pave the way for more developers to try and launch unfinished products.

15 subscribers... oh my... well I'm sure we wouldn't go F2P if your bunch of people wouldn't have left.

Let me put it really simple.... as long as you don't develope a game or anything it's your waste of time to spend trolling forums and "discussing" whatever happened months ago. Well if.. then they could have...

Originally Posted by Alyssa

Same as bought it to begin with or possibly more as it wouldn't have as bad reviews from beta experiences, gamers can play more than one game you know and besides GW2 would have been months away, even more would have been fed up with WoW's lack of content and D3 isn't the same type of game even.

I guess when you say something it has to be like this right?... Good thing that D3 is a different kind of game because it totally didn't pull player away from SWTOR...

I guess we can finish this silly discussion and I'll just remember you as the Myrtle from SWTOR... thanks.

not it just seems that me and my over 30 guild mates were the only people in the entire world which had no whatsoever issue with their class... because as you said... everyone had issues...

Please show where I said everyone had issue, no really.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

sure you can point me to the pre launch announcement that transfers/ group findern and custom UI will all be included in the game...

Never asked you for LFD nor UI, I asked for announcement on transfers as that is something you can't know if it's in the game or not at launch unless the developer informs you, it's also something we all know (except BW/EA) is needed shortly after launch, same as the tires on the car.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

15 subscribers... oh my... well I'm sure we wouldn't go F2P if your bunch of people wouldn't have left.

Let me put it really simple.... as long as you don't develope a game or anything it's your waste of time to spend trolling forums and "discussing" whatever happened months ago. Well if.. then they could have...

The 15 people wasn't the point but you know that, taking a stab at the number just shows your lack of arguments.

Why are you discussing it with me if you find it to be trolling, and why is it wasting my time based on my profession, something you really have no clue as to what that is, not to mention that it's my time to waste as I see fit.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

I guess when you say something it has to be like this right?... Good thing that D3 is a different kind of game because it totally didn't pull player away from SWTOR...

You asked for my opinion and I gave it, I really don't see why you think being rude about it is necessary.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

I guess we can finish this silly discussion and I'll just remember you as the Myrtle from SWTOR... thanks.

I guess we can as you clearly have no arguments left for your case and now have devolved in to hostility and name calling.

I'm not sure but I think the problem is elsewhere though, I don't know where. But that we could transfer with 1.3 but not anymore in 1.4 doesn't make any sense. The first transfer process was so smooth, I really thought they had figured it all out because they were the smoothest transfer I've ever experienced in mmo history. I was rather stunned that we couldn't transfer toons for 1.4 onto the pts.

But that goes to speaking volumes about the "finished" state of the product. I don't know how, at this point in time, BW can't have put in a program for you to transfer toons to the PTS. It just makes so little sense on so many levels.

---------- Post added 2012-09-26 at 02:36 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Psychlon

Everyone, myself included, would have prefered to have it prior launch. But for whatever reason it wasn't possible. If your car salesman tells you that all tires are sold out and he will get the next delivery in 1-2 weeks... you just deal with it or go to another car salesman.

To be honest, that analogy doesn't make any sense regarding this. It's more like not including a spare tire with a new automobile. You expect the tires to last their expected lifetime, but you can't guarantee it. You look at past performance and see that there are blow outs, nails in the road, etc. so you include the spare. The same thing could be said for this game. You can't expect to keep so many subscribers. You have to expect that people are going to leave. That's going to leave open the possibility for dead servers. While they couldn't have anticipated that so many people would leave, they had to know that many would. There should have been a contingency plan for that.

Originally Posted by Psychlon

If they would have finished everyting else before the game would launch in march or april? How many people do you think would have even bothered to look into the game with GW2 and D3 around the corner? Half a million? 750k?

More than likely, nearly as many as they already had. People didn't play this game waiting for GW2 to come around. Same thing goes for D3. In fact, you saw the dip in server activity when D3 came out and it last for a couple weeks, then it was back to normal. D3 isn't going to take away from any MMO because it isn't an MMO, it's a different type of game, and it has no subscription fee.

Originally Posted by Alyssa
Please show where I said everyone had issue, no really.

Speaking of turning it around as you see fit.... I wasn't the one starting with having issues during leveling. Well you didn't even found it necessary to give an example why you couldn't proceed and yes... If I can play the class it is pretty sure to assume that others can play the class as well.

Originally Posted by Alyssa
Never asked you for LFD nor UI, I asked for announcement on transfers as that is something you can't know if it's in the game or not at launch unless the developer informs you, it's also something we all know (except BW/EA) is needed shortly after launch, same as the tires on the car.

Really?, ... so in case 10 million people play TOR after launch... you really need server transfers?

Originally Posted by Alyssa
The 15 people wasn't the point but you know that, taking a stab at the number just shows your lack of arguments.

How... ? You brought that number up like it was something really to consider. It wasn't and that's the only think I pointed out.

Originally Posted by Alyssa
Why are you discussing it with me if you find it to be trolling, and why is it wasting my time based on my profession, something you really have no clue as to what that is, not to mention that it's my time to waste as I see fit.

Yeah it is but I seriously doubt that you ever had to delevope something, meeting a deadline and had to make cuts because you couldn't get everything into it. I have to regulary and while it's not the way you want it to be, it has to be done because otherwise you would never finish anything.

Originally Posted by Alyssa
You asked for my opinion and I gave it, I really don't see why you think being rude about it is necessary.

I guess the guys from a previous raidgroup which all left for D3 because they had more fun with it must have been an illusion because.. how can they leave SWTOR when D3 is nothing more than a Hack'n'Slay right?

Originally Posted by Alyssa
I guess we can as you clearly have no arguments left for your case and now have devolved in to hostility and name calling.

No argument can be won against ignorance but I guess it's easy to call out on stuff you are not related to and therefore... don't care if your assumptions are correct or not.