I'm not usually in the habit of starting policial threads, but this situation seems like a big deal to me. I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up yet -- as far as I can tell, this is an honest-to-God textbook example of an impeachable offense.

From the CNN article:

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The NSA eavesdrops on billions of communications worldwide. Although the NSA is barred from domestic spying, it can get warrants issued with the permission of a special court called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Court.

The court is set up specifically to issue warrants allowing wiretapping on domestic soil.

The FISAC, in fact, exists for the sole purpose of issuing such warrants, and the fact that they will statistically almost never turn down such a request has made them a target of the ACLU and other civil rights advocacy groups for years now. *If* it holds true that the Bush administration didn't even bother to seek such a warrant -- or worse, were actually turned for one -- the President of the United States has now confessed to a felony. On the other hand, if the FISAC did issue a warrant -- the court is notoriously secretive and is not subject to any congressional oversight -- this could trigger a major change in how domestic espionage is handled in the future.

George W. Bush isn't Adolf Hitler, and it does a serious disservice to any discussion of the real, legitimate problems with his administration to make any such comparison. It's similar to when conservatives try to compare the Iraq War to World War II or the American Revolution: no matter how carefully you try to pick out their similarities, the differences are so numerous and so pronounced that it'll never, ever stand up to any scrutiny.

I think I'll probably be accused of "just hating Bush" for simply pointing out that commiting a felony is, by definition, an impeachable offense. Attempting to compare Bush to Hitler is pretty much guaranteed to alienate you from any serious discussion here.

You're free to express your distain for the Bush administration in any way you like, unbreakable, but if I could presume to offer some advice, I think you'd have a better experience focusing on constructive ways to drive home your points.

Lets go attack Syria next. And then Iran, followed by North Korea, and finally lets see.. who else has WMD's? Hell lets just go bomb France since we don't like their opposistion to the illegal Iraq war! That's the way Dubya thinks, and it's because of him so much of the world hates us, the true patriotic Americans who know it's none of our business trying to be the world's police force bullying the rest of the world into submission either through threats, sanctions, bombs and wars.

We need a new president, for the love of all mankind.

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"A gladiator does not fear death. He embraces it. Caresses it. Fucks it. Every time he enters the arena, he slides his cock into the mouth of the beast."

it's because of him so much of the world hates us, the true patriotic Americans who know it's none of our business trying to be the world's police force bullying the rest of the world into submission either through threats, sanctions, bombs and wars.

The biggest irony here is that, during Bush's campaign for his initial term of presidency, he was going on and on in the debates about having a more conservative foreign policy and not being the world's police force.

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I flat-out hate politicians on both sides of the spectrum in Washington, but voted for W. both times because he was a hell of a lot better than the alternatives. I'm also known here and abroad as a Republican, but one who is not close-minded enough to view the Democrats as merely "out to get Bush." From the second I heard about The Patriot Act I knew that it was a bad idea because politicians were going to abuse the hell out of it at some point, and that it should have been read thoroughly ESPECIALLY in the wake of 9/11, not skimmed over because of 9/11. And here we have Bush sadly not getting it AGAIN.

As the quote said, if you sacrifice a little liberty to gain a little security, you deserve neither and this is exactly what happens when you give politicians an inch. Do I think Bush genuinely means well? Yes. Do I think he is waaaay too trusting in people to the point where they tell him something and he accepts it regardless of whether its true? Yup, I surely do. But this? This I have to say is exactly the sort of thing that NO politician should get away with doing, regardless of who they are or what they are doing. America has no set amount of legal freedoms, but the very second the government can authorize wiretaps etc. on its citizens, we become no better than the Russia we opposed for 50 years in the Cold War.

Wow, that sounds worse than I thought it was. It's like Bush didn't even want us to know he was invading our privacy and now that it leaked out, he's defending this BS.

I'm a registered Republican as well, voted for W in 2000, but not in 2004 after he took us to war in Iraq (didn't vote for Kerry either) I'm sure there will be people on both sides here coming at Dubya for this attack on our civil liberties. Especially republican congressman Ron Paul from Texas. He's real big on this kind of stuff.

The more I read about Bush, the less I like him. The saddest part of it all? He's controlling our country and there's not a damn thing we can do about it.

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"A gladiator does not fear death. He embraces it. Caresses it. Fucks it. Every time he enters the arena, he slides his cock into the mouth of the beast."

ok, I am all for the president defending us, and doing A LOT of things to do it. Torture. No. I cant condone the use of something that I wouldnt want used on myself, or my own people. We have laws in place, in hopes, that it wont be done anywhere on the planet.

How can in the same speach your giving, say that people elected you president of the US to defend and uphold the laws on rules of democaracy, then tell people that you will continue to order wire taps when you feel its necessary?

I didnt vote for Bush either of the times. I mostly voted for Kerry the 2nd time only because i felt that we had enough of george. I really didnt think things would be going the way they are. I am really looking forward to the next election. I think next year it will calm down a bit as the new candidates start to campaign, and get geared up.

There was outrage when clinton got a BJ in the white house. breaking a law. Really a law thats based on religious fidelity.

Bush breaks a governmental law. Wire tapping without a court order. And most people seem to be OK with it.

Clintons BJ, didnt really hurt anyone but the group of people involved. hillary, Monika, and a couple others. Yet the wire tapping has the possability to seriously affect all of us in the long run, not just the 30 people who were tapped.

And I don't see what the big deal is with this latest "problem"We've been doing this type of shit for years, it was just kept more quiet.

So it's OK to commit any crime as long as you keep it quiet?

It's only a crime if you're caught.

Clinton's fault was that he lied about something under oath, which is an impeachable offense. Bush authorized wire taps against citizens without a court order/warrant/whatever which I would imagine is an impeachable offense. I swear to God if we have two presidents in a row impeached because of their own stupidity, I might actually lose faith in the US political system altogether.

Ok, so Clinton might have lost some face due to the BJ scandel, but he was, IIRC, very well liked by the majority of foreign leaders.

Bush is not very well liked by anyone but the Saudi's (Bin Ladens) who are friends with his family, and that's because they own like 10% of our market.

How can you even compare the foreign views of these two guys? I bet most leaders laughed when Clinton got caught, but I don't think they have been laughing at all of Bush's mistakes, a few of which include:

-Lying about Iraq (but at least we got plenty of oil!), then pissing off the entire Middle East by torturing Muslims (etc).-Not trusting Americans, so he has to take away all our freedoms/privacy?-Saying things to piss off both SE Asia and South America (and many other locales).

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Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play

Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot.

Clintons BJ, didnt really hurt anyone but the group of people involved.

Wrong.

It shamed the US to the rest of the world.

You have *got* to be kidding.

First of all, no it didn't. The United States of America is far, far more uptight about human sexuality than just about any other country on Earth. Even the most extreme muslim sects, ruthlessly enforcing the policy of keeping women cloaked from head to toe in public, didn't care about Clinton's infidelities.

Second of all, which would you say is more shameful to this country: a president who gets a blowjob in the Oval Office, or one who violates international law to disarm a tinpot dictator without any weapons, engages in "extraordinary rendition" to torture U.S. prisoners in other countries, vows to veto any bill seeking to *reaffirm* the fact that torture is illegal, refuses to comment on the existence of secret CIA prisons in Europe, and says things like, "I think the jury's still out on that 'evolution' stuff."

The Bush administration's foreign policies have abolished sixty years of international good will from our allies, replacing our image of a country that holds itself to the highest standard of human rights with the image of one which routinely ignores international law and engages in barbaric acts of torture. The idea that you could look at our current status in the international community and say that **CLINTON** was the one who shamed us...do you honestly feel the United States built its global reputation on the fidelity of our leadership?

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And I don't see what the big deal is with this latest "problem"We've been doing this type of shit for years, it was just kept more quiet.

Are you seriously prepared to argue that commiting a crime in secret makes it less of a crime?

Are you seriously prepared to argue that commiting a crime in secret makes it less of a crime?

Nope. I'm saying that it's been going on for years, so what's the big deal about it now? Just because it's the Bush Admin?More ammo for the anti-Bush people, but hardly worthy of getting so worked up about, is all.

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Even the most extreme muslim sects, ruthlessly enforcing the policy of keeping women cloaked from head to toe in public, didn't care about Clinton's infidelities.

And you know this, how?

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The Bush administration's foreign policies have abolished sixty years of international good will from our allies, replacing our image of a country that holds itself to the highest standard of human rights with the image of one which routinely ignores international law and engages in barbaric acts of torture

Sorry, I don't hold this same opinion.

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You want to know what has shamed the US to the rest of the world? Torture.

Alleged torture. Again....just more ammo for the anti-Bushers.

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You want to know what has shamed this government to it's own citizens? Illegaly spying on them

What the hell do people in other countries care if our gov't is spying on us?

Listen, i'm not going to get into a drawn out battle with you guys here, because I really don't care about this subject enough to.

zekester you can keep your opinions, which is of course fine, but you cannot possibly hold the opinion that the rest of the world does not view the united states in a much lower light since post-iraq. the only time i can think of anything close to this amount of resentment were the wto meetings in seattle, and even that wasnt directed directly at the united states it was toward an international organization. regardless of the truth of the allegations, interpretations or anything, it is pretty much undeniable that old allies and previously indifferent people now have an unfavorable, sometimes violent opinion of the united states. i wont go so far as to say this administration shamed us in the face of the international community, but it has done much more damage to our image than fellatio. again, you dont have to agree with the allegations, but the way in which the international community has reacted has been less than stellar to say the least. the blow job that so shamed us never resulted in protests of 100,000+ people in the streets of london, the capital of our staunchest supporter in this whole endeavor.

edit to add - sorry i was pretty off topic with my response - aa have you been paying much attention to what congress has been doing lately? i hope its not just me being optimistic, but it seems they (senate especially) are finally doing their job a little bit, slowing things down and engaging in a bit more heady debate than the past few years. im sure they will look into this VERY carefully - because its about time they realized they are a part of government as well and quit simply bowing before the exec. it may have taken them several years, but i think many actually read the patriot act finally! the response to its renewal has been tepid at best - theyre almost like "hey, THAT was in there? oh geez." and mccain basically said go screw THIS is the torture bill thats going through not some white house legalese thats going to make it kosher to do some unsavory things to our troops in the next war.

zekester travel abroad its scary - even in friendly countries where i used to get pints for being the american (as a joke to show british hospitality) - now i get nasty looks and have heard "bloody yank" on more than one occasion. its not good - and you dont have to travel, just refer back to the riots and outrage in countries from europe to the middle east whenever prisoner abuse scandal a or presidential visit b took place. i mean gees he was in latin america what, not a month ago - those werent happy crowds - or heads of state. even if you choose not to travel abroad the degree is quite clear.

and no he hasnt kicked my dog, but i sure miss those free pints and jovial smiles

and no he hasnt kicked my dog, but i sure miss those free pints and jovial smiles

It's nice to know that people are as narrow-minded in other countries as we can be here. Look, a terrorist, I mean Arab! *faints* :roll:

Of course it's not logical, but a government represents the people. By voting Bush in for a second term, we told the world we back what he is doing. We ALL think Muslims are terrorists/evil-doers, just by association. All Americans are viewed (through 50 years of continued bullying) as agressive bullies who want to rule the world. In truth, with us having military installations in approximately 130-150 countries (Last time I Googled it), doesn't it appear we have overstepped our bounds a bit?

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According to the Pentagon's Manpower Report, before Sept. 11, 2001, there were 255,000 U.S. military personnel in 153 countries.

Johnson says the Pentagon's calculation that it owns or rents 702 bases in about 130 countries -- over and above the 6,000 bases in the United States -- is a gross underestimate because it fails to include installations in such places as Kosovo and Bosnia, as well as Iraq and Afghanistan, and secret installations in Israel, Australia and England, among others.

In truth, with us having military installations in approximately 130-150 countries (Last time I Googled it), doesn't it appear we have overstepped our bounds a bit?

Just a little bit? It's no secret that the majority of the world see us as bullies and imperialists, but the truth is, we are! I remember Bush boldly claiming during the Afghanistan war (which by the way, IMO, was very well justified as the Taliban were given warning to turn over bin laden - a real terrorists - but refused to do so) that we weren't in it for the "nation building", yet what are we doing right now?We're like the old Roman empire that set out to conquer the world and install our way of life on everyone else whether they liked it or not. Yet in the end, Rome fell.

I respect the rest of the world and how they run their country should be up to them. We don't see other countries coming over here and telling us how to run our country, or telling us to get rid of our WMD's or else face invasion and occupation.America was occupied once - during the American Revolution. We fought back, and won our indepdence. I think what we're doing in Iraq right now is if anything, breeding more terrorists. Even the most moderate of the Iraqi groups have called for an end to the occupation.

At least Bush finally admitted the pre-war intelligence was wrong and took responsiblity for it. All this time he was trying to play out they had weapons of mass destruction and the saddest part of it all is that we had weapons inspectors there in the first place, they were doing their job and asked for time. Bush, having never gone to war himself, seemed so thirsty for blood he coudn't even wait for the weapons inspectors to finish their job.

I really dislike this guy and the way he's taking America, especially abraod. During one of the massive anti-war protests in London I saw plenty of British holding up pictures of Bush with "World's #1 Terrorists" and others "USA are the terrorists" WTF??! That does go to show that there is anti-american sentiment not only in the muslim and arab world, but even in our own western civlizations. And we all owe this hatred to one man, George "Dubya" Bush.

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"A gladiator does not fear death. He embraces it. Caresses it. Fucks it. Every time he enters the arena, he slides his cock into the mouth of the beast."

I really dislike this guy and the way he's taking America, especially abraod. During one of the massive anti-war protests in London I saw plenty of British holding up pictures of Bush with "World's #1 Terrorists" and others "USA are the terrorists" WTF??! That does go to show that there is anti-american sentiment not only in the muslim and arab world, but even in our own western civlizations. And we all owe this hatred to one man, George "Dubya" Bush.

While I think Bush has pretty much sucked as a president, especially this term, I really couldn't care less about how he's affected opinions of the US abroad. What, we're supposed to be all upset because Europe doesn't like us? The same Europe that called us barbaric because we insist on having a death penalty? Well, boohoo. Europe can go home and take their enlightened high-minded principles (which are somewhat undermined by many recent racist incidents) with them.

Honestly, I think other countries around the world would hate our president even if we hadn't invaded Iraq, simply because he's a socially conservative, evangelical Christian. Someone who professes to believe in absolute morals and the Bible isn't politically correct or tolerant enough in today's world. And until I start to see an economic impact from these other countries' dislike, I couldn't care less about what they think. To me, it's nothing but ammunition that Bush-haters like to drag out as support for their cause, whether it's relevant or not.

bush i back on TV this morning discussing the Iraq election. Saying that the people want a constituion with laws that protect them from thier government. He was also saying that he had the authority to tap phones becuase he IS the president.

Someone needs to sit down with him, before these speeches go live. They need a proof reader, or something. He broke the law. As far as we know right now. Without some sort of investigation, he broke the law. Wire tapping without a warrant is illegal. Are they trying to just get people to believe that its not? By tieing these ideas closely in speeches?

if I talk about laws and rights, and protections, and then in the same breath talk about civil liberties, and wire tapping, maybe people will connect that I didnt break a law?

I guess Innocent until proven guilty. We know he gave the order to wire tap phones. he told us so, now the question is, did he have a warrant?

They are making a big deal that there was a leak. I am sure the terrorists were aware that they might be listened in on. Pre 9/11 they used code in messages all ready. They said for the date they receieved a picture message of a lollipop and two matchsticks, or something stupid like that. I think that there would not have been a leak about it, if something wasn't amiss. I dont think that someone would have blown a whistle if nothing was wrong with what was going on somewhere.

I dont mind the wiretapping. But PLEASE do it in a legal manner. We have a constituion here, that has been in place for a long time, and it works. We have shown that with laws, regularions, amendments, and wars. We fought for it. For the people here, for loved ones.

I don't particularly fancy getting involved in political arguements online.

But I have zero problem with the government wiretapping anyone. I've not done anything wrong, as such I have nothing to hide, and no problem with wiretapping. If it ends up catching a terrorist and saving lives, do I care that they know what my nickname for my fiancee is?

There are things that our president has done that I disagree with; this is not one of them.

I thought about jumping into this discussion to single handedly tip the scales back over to balanced......

But I'll just leave this message in here and you guys know what I would say. There. Balance achieved......

Now back to looking on the internet for an Xbox 360....

Honestly, I would think you'd be outraged. As a conservative, you've always been in favor of smaller govt. and upholding constitutional rights. This is obviously not small govt. and it directly violates the Constitution.

Quote from: "Amendment IV"

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath and affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I thought about jumping into this discussion to single handedly tip the scales back over to balanced......

But I'll just leave this message in here and you guys know what I would say. There. Balance achieved......

Now back to looking on the internet for an Xbox 360....

Honestly, I would think you'd be outraged. As a conservative, you've always been in favor of smaller govt. and upholding constitutional rights. This is obviously not small govt. and it directly violates the Constitution.

Quote from: "Amendment IV"

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath and affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

To be honest I've been so damned wrapped up in this Xbox garbage that I haven't even payed attention to the wiretapping news. I'll read into it and release a statement a little later....