MMORPG question???

wyrmmage Wrote:(ok, looking over my post, it seems to be a bit self centered Sorry, didn't mean for it to turn out that way )

Thats ok, at least you speak for yourself and not for legions of people you've never met.

Why make an MMORPG as a contest?
How'd the last contest do? 4 entries, 1 nearly sorta kinda finished?

Don't make it a "contest" and scatter everyone's energies into the
"I dont' have time for a contest" conversations on these boards.

Why not succeed where idevgames failed with Inkubator?
Just make a MMORPG subsection of the site and see where it goes.

Where's these books some of you were supposed to be writing for five years?

Why not get serious and actually accomplish something that settles this conversation in the future by saying "Well you can try the iDevgames MMO kit we've been working on" instead of whining all the time?

BeyondCloister Wrote:A throw away line said with humour knowing how there always seems to be someone mentioning a contest on the IRC channel.

Yes and there is always a crowd that takes it seriously no matter how flawed the idea, better to nip it in the bud before it spirals into a big distraction.

With some infrastructure, certainly specific contests related to such an undertaking would attract some talent. MMO art? MMO Design doc? MMO user lobby design...the potentials for contests that lead to something exist.

David Perry's Top Secret project has some succesful "mini-contests" like "hire someone in seven days"...the user input was amazing!

BeyondCloister Wrote:OT: Did Inkubator fail because iDevGames gave up on it or did the people behind it just move on?

I think because people gave up on the "idea" of an inkubator project here.
Previous contest thread discussion on this spells that out.
The inkubator project "idea" is bigger than any single project that might fall under it.

All those great ideas Apple had ten years ago didn't completely die off just because they failed at the time: Newton to Palm to iPhone as a quick example.

Najdorf Wrote:3D is not mandatory for a mmorpg i believe. I guess the hardest part of a mmorpg is the networking code...

I'm sure every step of the process is "the hardest part", from planning what the game will be, what the 'hook' is, who the characters are, what is the world it takes place in, raising the team, holding it together, staying on task, acquiring assets, creating game editors, funding the servers, etc.

However projects like Planeshift set an example for what can be accomplished once interest is established and dedicated fans become dedicated developers.

Which reminds me that instead of constantly repeating the mantra of "spend many years learning programming", encouraging wanna be MMO devs to join up with existing projects should be the first place to lead them.

The result could very well make a huge difference not only for the would be developer but also for such projects that always face the very real possibility of collapse without support.

I think the big issue with developers is that they have a choices
A) Play mmo's long enough to actually give a damn about them
B) or learn to code well

Doing both doesn't seem to work together.

Long ago I envisioned iGame3D as a chat app that allowed sharing of assets and code. After all we've been developing it for five years without ever meeting anywhere except Carracho or iChat. If Hotline had open sourced five years ago I would have rolled it into the software right out the gate.

Second Life seemed almost the answer to that idea.
People are making so much money in Second Life, some people who
do NO programing, that the IRS is investigating it.

My wife, a non-gamer, even cranked up that program to see if she
could make money selling virtual real estate. Too bad it ran like mud.

The market is saturated with software choices, the next or current wave of profit is coming from the place the mac game developers here have always given the cold shoulder to: Content creators, artists, designers, hell people even sell virtual fashion and genitals these days.

Who makes more money Adobe and Apple or the sum total of their users?

Another example, Microsoft lost over $3 Billion selling the Xbox in the last five years, while Activision alone raked in $1.5 Billion last year.

Leroy Wrote:This is like saying that you want to play in the NFL by the end of next year, and all you need to do is learn football first.

Also, there seem to be an awful lot of "aspiring game designers" out there, I wonder why that might be?

I will tell you right now, unless you have a tremendous unbending desire to create your own games, which is strong enough to carry you through all the hardships of learning, and later on development cycles, I would drop the idea right now if I were you. I promise you, game development is 1,000 harder than what you might think it is right now.

But, if you're willing to work at it, then learn to program(which can take some time), then learn to move little images across the screen, and then come back to this board and ask us about the technology, apis, etc. that one might use to program a small scale mmo.

Good luck either way.

I forgot to mention I already know a wide variety of scripting languages (Java, C++, Javascript, PHP, Actionscript) I just wanted to know what computer programs I might look into for building an effective small scale MMORPG. I'm not just some n00b stumbling into this, just to clear things up.

Keep an eye on Sun's DarkStar, probably join the forums over there, and several other MMOPRG software forums, where people actually spend time doing instead of discouraging.

If all you need is a little world for 12 people, then Torque engine should do the job nicely and the demo should get your feet wet quickly. Oh and they are already on the road to an MMORPG kit

Spend the summer researching every MMO you and your friends can play and discuss, get in over your head coding (anything and everything) and making assest, then decide if just playing as a clan in an MMO is worth more in quality time than trying to make one.

And don't let people on the internet discourage you just because they can't do what you want to do.

JeroMiya Wrote:To explain a little of the controversy cloud, it's kind of a cliche thing for beginning programmers to want to jump in and post that they want to make the next greatest MMORPG (or the next Doom 3, etc..) when in reality it takes many years of experience and hard work to get to the level of making your own MMORPG from scratch.

This has been the cliche for so long that some people actively try to discourage people from even getting into the field of programming if they even mention wanting to work on MMORPG's some day.

This is quite unfortunate, because as idevgame3d has pointed out, there are now several options for pre-made MMORPG packages that you can customize and create your own world with. Think of them like the RPG-Maker software, but for MMORPGs (though the MMORPG software packages in general tend to be less refined than this). The level of skill required to create worlds, characters, monsters, etc.. with one of these engines is FAR less than that needed to create your own engine from scratch. Depending on how customized you want your game world to be, making your own custom MMORPG with these packages is just supplying your own artwork, characters, quests, and dialog (especially if they include sample artwork, etc.. that you can use, or a level editor). At worst, you will be editing and creating your own scripts, which are usually short and more manageable than writing C++ directly. Some of the scripts, like for dialog, often look more like html than code.

So anyway, the point is, don't be discouraged by this reaction. Things are a little different now, and making your own MMORPG is becoming easier with the use of MMORPG software packages. But even still, it will still require a lot of work, but if you're determined you can do it.

JeroMiya

Yeah I understand what you mean. I figure I ought to at least try it and pick up on the things that give me trouble. I'm not actually looking to make "THE" greatest game out there, definitely not the biggest (since that requires a load of cash and at least 30 or so artists and programmers), this is mostly a project for experience. The main goal is to actually create at least something remotely close to an mmorpg (or in my case an 'private' online rpg)

Oh and one more thing, I apologize for the use of the word MMORPG. I realize that I should have been more careful with that since the word "Massive" is in there, and I am only one person. Sorry about the confusion and the possible ":mad: " moments you may have had.

I think that someone with some experience with socket programming could make a simple online role playing game within the timeframe of some contests. Sure, you'd be looking at something that's 2D and pretty simple, but you'd be able to have multiple users connected and interacting.

Sorry, I've got to run, but the short story is: 6-8ish people created an online role playing game in 3ish months. My apologies for the state of the wiki, there might not be any useful information there.

igame3d Wrote:I'm sure every step of the process is "the hardest part", from planning what the game will be, what the 'hook' is, who the characters are, what is the world it takes place in, raising the team, holding it together, staying on task, acquiring assets, creating game editors, funding the servers, etc.

No, the hardest part is the networking code. Because the game is just moving your guy around killing monsters, the hook is levelling up, the characters are just balls, the world is a green rectangle, the team is you, there are no assets (except from the above mentioned balls and rectangles), no game editor and your comp is the server. The rest is an option

Your version of the "hardest part" has been accomplished and is freely available through a number of open source projects and commercial engines.

So where is the giant user communities buying and playing these balls and cube games?

It comes down to the content and gameplay, not the networking alone.
Note that Second Life is succesful because users can add and even sell their own content, not "ooh look its pong on a network".

I remember some uDevGames using network code, the problem solved in under three months.

A hook by the way is the Unique element not a feature that has been in video games since the table top RPG's turned into text based MUDs.
Leveling up can be cheated to accomplish its about as much of a hook as a wet noodle.

it all depends on what engines your using and where your knowledge lies; if you're using no engines, then the 'hardest part' may be making the graphics, networking code, or something else in the game. If your using pre-made engines to do all of the work for you, the hardest part will probably be the gameplay, or recruiting people to make your sound effects, 3D models, etc., since there doesn't have to be much work put into the rest of it.
Just my two cents
-wyrmmage