Brain Damage & Death An Outcome Of Fanaticism-Legal Action To Be Filed Against Mohelim And Rabbis Endorsing This Process

Debra Nussbaum Cohen and Larry Cohler-Esses - UOJ loses his mind at the end of this article.

In the face of a religious court’s failure to conclude its investigation of a mohel who health officials say transmitted herpes to three babies, New York City’s health commissioner issued an unprecedented public warning Tuesday that a controversial circumcision procedure is endangering the lives of Jewish infants.

“There exists no reasonable doubt that metzitzah b’peh can and has caused neonatal herpes infection,” Dr. Thomas Frieden wrote in “An Open Letter to the Jewish Community” about a procedure routinely practiced by mohels in some sectors of the Orthodox community. “The Health Department recommends that infants being circumcised not undergo metzitzah b’peh.”

But some community leaders in sectors of the Orthodox community where the practice is common indicated they would continue to insist on the procedure as a requirement of religious law.

The letter — the Health Department’s first official warning against the procedure — follows an apparent breakdown in an agreement the department had with a Jewish religious court in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

In September, the city withdrew a lawsuit against a mohel the department concluded had transmitted the disease to three babies on whom he had performed the procedure, including one who died as a result and one who suffered brain damage. It also withdrew a court order barring him from continuing to use the technique.

In exchange, Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer voluntarily agreed temporarily to stop performing metzitzah b’peh. Rabbi Fischer and his attorney dispute that the rabbi was the source of the infection. And a Jewish religious court took up the case for final resolution. But according to Frieden, the religious court, or bet din, failed to meet the Dec. 1 deadline.

“They’ve since communicated to us that it’s a complicated situation and they’re not sure when they can come back,” Frieden told The Jewish Week. “So rather than let that continue indefinitely, we felt it was important to make clear to the public our own conclusion and position.”

Rabbi David Niederman, liaison for the Williamsburg bet din, said he was “shocked” at Frieden’s reaction to the delay.

“We have set the date, and it might be a little bit later,” he said. “However, I believe that the lines of communication are open, so it’s only a phone call to ask ... when would the report be issued. We did not break down the agreement.”

The rabbinical court, he said, “is making a very thorough and broad investigation. They will not leave one stone unturned.”

But whatever the court’s ultimate conclusions about Rabbi Fischer, it will not impact the practice of metzitzah b’peh in the haredi community, said Rabbi Niederman.

“We are convinced that it’s not dangerous,” he said. “Had it been dangerous we would not be performing it, and you know that Hashem [God] would not give something to us that is dangerous.”

In metzitzah b’peh, a mohel orally sucks blood from the site of the genital cut he makes during the circumcision procedure. Not all haredi groups mandate the practice, and the Modern Orthodox-oriented Rabbinical Council of America recommends using a sterile tube and gloves to avoid direct oral-genital contact.

But several haredi sects insist Jewish religious law requires the practice. City officials said mohels from these sects may also apply the procedure outside their communities.

Rabbi David Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel, an Orthodox umbrella group, estimates that metzitzah b’peh is performed more than 2,000 times a year in the New York City.

Two New Herpes Cases

In his Open Letter, Frieden reviews seven cases of herpes that have occurred locally, including two this year that the letter discloses publicly for the first time.

Health Department investigators have concluded all were transmitted by mohels performing metzitzah b’peh.

According to Frieden, in one of the two new cases, the infant shows evidence of severe brain damage. The case came to the Health Department’s attention in October.

Frieden said in neither case have the families been willing to identify the mohel who performed the circumcision.

“We are continuing to try to gain their cooperation,” he said.

In legal documents filed several months ago the department stated that herpes, which generally causes just blisters and cold sores in healthy older children and adults, is fatal as much as 30 percent of the time in newborns.

Frieden’s warning against the procedure comes more than a year after a cluster of three neonatal herpes cases were attributed to Rabbi Fischer.

Furthermore, The Jewish Week has learned, the warning comes a full five years after two senior pediatricians at Long Island Jewish Medical Center warned the city that metzitzah b’peh was putting the lives of Jewish infants at risk.

Dr. Philip Lanzkowsky, chief of staff of Schneider Children’s Hospital at Long Island Jewish hospital, said he and a colleague reached out to city health officials and members of Brooklyn’s haredi community about the danger in 2000. The physicians acted after determining that two cases of neonatal herpes brought to Schneider Hospital had been caused by metzitzah b’peh.

“I went to Brooklyn myself and met with rabbis and a representative of the Health Department,” said Lanzkowsky.

He said he acted without publicity at the time, explaining, “One of the things we didn’t want to happen was adverse publicity in the general media that might affect [ritual circumcision] in general. We wanted to deal with it in the local Jewish community.”

There is little doubt the city was aware of Lanzkowsky’s warning. In his open letter, Frieden cites Lanzkowsky’s investigation of the two cases, published in the March 2000 edition of the Pediatric Infectious Diseases Journal.

Asked why he thought the city was acting now, Lanzkowsky said, “Obviously they [the community] didn’t heed the first warning.” But after the death of a child last year, “I think the Department of Health, which carries a responsibility here, could not sit quiet.”

Last year the city began to investigate the suspected link to one local mohel of three herpes cases in 2003 and 2004. As it probed the link, some sectors of the Orthodox community lobbied city officials heavily not to interfere with the practice. That effort included a meeting in August between Mayor Michael Bloomberg and prominent members of the Satmar chasidic community based in Brooklyn and Rockland County as Bloomberg was gearing up for re-election.

“We’re going to do a study to make sure that everybody is safe, and at the same time it is not the government’s business to tell people how to practice their religion,” Bloomberg said one day after the meeting.

‘They Haven’t Banned It’

Frieden issued his statement in two parts: the open letter and a flier titled “Before the Bris: How to Protect Your Infant Against Herpes Virus Infection Caused by Metzitzah B’peh.”

The latter is a one-page “fact sheet” the city intends to distribute directly to new parents at hospitals frequently used by Jewish mothers to give birth, circumventing religious authorities who maintain that metzitzah b’peh is an essential element of brit milah, or ritual circumcision.

The fact sheet introduces options that Jewish parents could have for the ritual circumcision of their new sons — information they might not receive from within sectors of the community insisting on metzitzah b’peh. The fact sheet and letter are also on the Health Department’s Web site, www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/std/std-bris.shtml.

The flier begins with the statement “circumcision has health benefits,” but goes on to explain how herpes is contracted from mohels who employ metzitzah b’peh and encourages parents to “consider other options.”

It takes aim squarely at arguments offered by some fervently Orthodox community leaders in the last few months claiming the practice is safe.

“There is no proven way to reduce the risk of metzitzah b’peh,” the flier says. “Although a mohel may use oral rinses or sip wine before metzitzah b’peh, there is no evidence that these actions reduce the spread of herpes. A mohel who takes antiviral medication may reduce the risk of spreading herpes virus during metzitzah b’peh, but there is no evidence that taking medication eliminates this risk.”

Other members of the haredi community joined Rabbi Niederman in expressing concern over the Health Department’s action.

David Zwiebel, an attorney and executive vice president of Agudath Israel, an organization that represents haredi interests, said he would have preferred the statement not be issued.

But at least “they have been true to their commitment that they would not regulate the procedure,” he said of Health Department officials. “They haven’t banned it and haven’t required some sort of informed consent, which was an idea on the table at an earlier stage.”

Zwiebel was concerned that the department’s action could harm the haredi community’s public image and serve as a “foundation on which other jurisdictions might choose to regulate the practice, or even New York City might do that at some future date.”

Haredi communities often view government agencies as interlopers meddling dangerously with their internal religious affairs. In this case the Health Department’s statement may prompt some to ask questions of their rabbis, Zwiebel said.

“The most likely reaction is that there will be a general message from many of these rabbonim to their communities whether or not — and probably not — the statement from the commissioner could impact their halachic practice,” he said.

Rabbi Levi Heber is a mohel based in Crown Heights, from the Lubavitch community, where metzitzah b’peh is considered a spiritually integral part of the brit milah ritual.

“The concept of non-Jewish authorities trying to influence certain behaviors should not be accepted by anyone,” said Rabbi Heber. “You never know where it could lead.”

Since the potential health risks of metzitzah b’peh hit the headlines, many clients have brought up concerns about it, Rabbi Heber said. “It’s something that’s been brewing.”

But parents “are sincerely interested in finding out the facts, and with a little bit of explanation they agree to it,” he said.

Rabbi Heber said he has never refrained from metzitzah b’peh because of a parental objection, but has had parents say “ ‘do what you have to do, but I’m not going to be there’ ” to see it.

Rabbi Niederman stressed the huge number of metzitzah b’peh procedures performed with no apparent ill effects.

“There have been seven cases, allegedly over a span of 15 years,” he said. “In Williamsburg alone we have close to 57,000 people. The overwhelming majority is very young, so you’re talking about 120,000 brises of metzitzah b’peh. You tell me, is it safer to give a flu shot or to do metzitzah b’peh?'

But Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a dean at Yeshiva University’s rabbinic school and a professor of biology there, as well as an expert in Jewish medical ethics with a doctorate in microbiology, has long opposed metzitzah b’peh as halachically unnecessary and medically dangerous.

In an interview this week, he said that indications of brain damage in one of the boys whose case is being cited by the Health Department should make people aware of the dangers, besides death, of herpes contracted through metzitzah b’peh.

“I’m convinced that many children have been infected and not diagnosed, and years later they are in special education in the schools and no one knows why,” Rabbi Tendler said.

“Because neonatal herpes has a large variety of presentations, it’s quite likely that cases prior to this recent increased awareness were undiagnosed,” he said. “And because neonatal herpes causes encephalitis, the long-term effects of that infection will be lifelong, including neurological impairment.”

The only reason the city Health Department didn’t impose an outright ban on metzitzah b’peh, he said, is because it would be nearly impossible to enforce, with most ritual circumcisions taking place in private homes and in synagogues.

Dr. John Santelli, a pediatrician and chair of the department of population and family health at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health, said “it’s difficult when there’s a potential clash between religious values and medical information, but it’s really important that parents know, and for the commissioner to take the position that this is a dangerous practice.”

Health departments have learned from dealing with HIV-AIDS that “in public health you have to start with education, with a community and its leaders,” Santelli said. While the health commissioner has broad latitude protecting public health, in some cases amounting to police authority, officials “rarely take draconian measures because it alienates the people you want to work with.”

“The commissioner is now throwing the ball back to the Orthodox community and saying ‘how are you going to respond to this?’ ” Santelli said. “I hope we don’t have another tragedy.”

UOJ comments and loses his mind about the vile behavior of the Charedi fools.

I picked up the TOILET PAPER OF RECORD in the Jewish community and saw a full page ad about an "Urgent Kashrus Notification".This notice begins with "we have "HEARD" allegations that", and goes on to describe the transgressions of Torah law by eating Romaine Lettuce........, and any restaraunt offering this assortment of foods is "GUILTY OF OFFERING FOOD THAT IS FORBIDDEN BY TORAH LAW".

This ad was signed by; born, bred and educated in America "respected poskim", such as Yisroel Belsky, Shlomo Miller,and Yisroel Reisman. There are another twenty five clowns and mental midgets that signed this ad.

Yet these SAME three guys either visited city hall in protest or have signed endorsements for the unrestricted continuation of the metziza b'peh circumcision ritual under the guise of a "TORAH mandated practice"

The above article speaks for itself. Children have been infected by mohelim performing this practice.
They have either gotten ill, died or have been BRAIN DAMAGED by contracting herpes through this practice.
It does not make a difference if according to Niederman these kids are anyway "only a few" and therefore "BOTUL B'SHISHIM OR BOTUL B"ROV".THIS PRACTICE WILL CONTINUE!

What's wrong with you Belsky & Co? Don't you realize that the illnesses,death and brain damage caused by this "NOT" TORAH MANDATED WEENIE SUCKING, is not immediate?

The repercussions of this barbaric and age old practice which began because of the ignorance of our ancestors on the medical consequences, will be killing our children and damaging our grandchildren for generations.

Chances are that most of you will be dead and not see the tragedies caused by your criminal behavior of endorsing practices that lead to death and illness.
Shame on you for not standing up for what's right.You know better.
Even if there is a chashash (chance) that a child would be harmed you have an obligation to at the very least SUSPEND the practice.

Are all the doctors anti-semites and out to get us????

Can it not be possible that the increasing number of children needing "special education" can be related to a virus that was caused by the herpes infection?

Well, I guess you've got lettuce on your mind, and you can't prohibit lettuce and prohibit metziza at the same time.

I will hold you all responsible for any child's death or illness from today on forward. Any child that gets ill or dies, I will be setting up a fund to file a civil lawsuit against all of you, and urge the D.A. to file criminal charges against you and all your cohorts for MURDER.

I'll see you in court.

Anyone having information of any mohel doing metziza, or knowing of any child getting ill or worse, e-mail me at a_unorthodoxjew@yahoo.com.
All replies will be held in the strictest confidence.

UOJ-You gotta do a job with this issue-http://yeshivaorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2005/12/o-devil-whats-lakewood-doing.html

It is getting the people of lakewood all worked up how the yeshiva can sell themselves for a few dollars whereby costing taxpayers 50mil- and then the yeshiva goes and assures anybody from going to any such venue!!!!!lakewood needs your help in exposing the frauds-aron kutler and the vaad of lakewood for making everybody in lakewood pay a fortune in taxes as long as they get the small kickback or grant they want!!!

One question to you.Do you think that you are as great as Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shach,etc...?If the answer is yes, then keep spilling forth your venom,bile,and garbage.If the answer is no,then either ask a adam gadol whether you should continue this web site or cease and desist.

You missed the point. You are so full of anger and hatred that you need therapy. I challenge you,show us one single haskama from the gedolei hador whether it be from Rav Steinman,Rav Kanievsky,The Bostoner Rebbe or any other gadol in the world.I also challenge you to show me one single reliable source that nivel peh is a mitzvah.If you cannot or will not show a haskama for this website and your work, then you should desist immediately .

Let's look at this blog in a different light. What other blogger has the courage to tell the kinds of truths that UOJ tells. We all witness the issues that UOJ posts about every day, and yet we don't speak out.

Finally, someone is talking about the hypocracy that is so rampant in our religion.

If you agree with the message don't shoot the messenger.

The way I see the problem is that most of us frum jews are focused on the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law and because of this many get hurt.

The issur of "listening" to "Lashon Hara" is also present if your pathetic argument holds any weight.

The opinions of the "Gedolim" you mention are unfortunately insignificant as they are notoriously fed false information by the Chareidi Camp and therefore are impartial by default. They can learn a wicked Blatt Gemorah but they simply don't know the issues!

We need a Reb Moshe to clarify the issue to us. He wasn't afraid to posken the way he felt was correct.Today poskim are afraid to irk the wrong people.THey have to consider their families-shiduchim,ect.Isn't a Sakana "danger to ones health" superceds all? Do you really want to have the Harm to babies on your concious?And is Mezzizah the entire mitzvah of milah?Can't it been in a more sanitary manner? Please for the sake of the children.

Metziza was used strictly out of ignorance of the potential sakana by our ancestors and has no part of the mitzvas milah.

The rabbonim are using "minhag avosainu b'yadanu"to remind us of the importance of the 'poskim" in our everyday lives. The problem is a minhag at best, does not take precedence over the slightest sakana of illness never mind death.

We have here IDIOTS who are willing to endanger our future to re-establish their importance, especially to guys like me who Know they are full of shit and greedy gangsters.

Forbid lettuce and New York water, and let kids get sick and die, you scumbags. I will see you bastards in court.

I don't know to what extent I will get cooperation from parents just yet.

The difference between this matter and Kolko is that it would NOT be a busha for parents to come forward. Coming forward in the Kolko matter would do irreparable damage (in their minds) to their respective families.

The hope from here is that the Health Dept. somehow is able to prevail and get the city to pass a law making it illegal to endanger a child's life in any manner including any known dangerous ritual practice.

Civil action is one way to take depositions, issue subpeonas and FORCE people to testify.

UOJ-Lakewood was quiet 3 years ago and did not vote against the minor league stadium being built in their back yard-in return they got a parcel of several acres adjacent to the stadium for free to build a so called business park. Now the township of lakewood is going to have to buy back that land so that they can go ahead with the hockey stadium. The scam is that the township had plans for the hockey stadium many years ago-why would they give the land away and then need to buy it back at a premium-IF NOT TO PAY THE KUTLERS FOR THEIR VOTES!!!!!!

The vaad/kutler tells people who they have to vote for and the people they endorse are not looking out for the klal-rather they promise the kutlers x amount of grants!!! The elected people the vaad voted for are raising out taxes and nobody knows that by listening to the vaad they are helping the yeshiva but killing their already tight budgets....

NOw we have this builder ralph zucker who is in bed with ruby schron-he has plans of building a hotel/movie theater/ 6 mega stores----all right next to the newly approved stadium!!!

This is how the corrupt people of lakewood get taken care of.....

Now after the lakewood yeshiva approved the building of the stadium 3 years ago-and got their payment---they went ahead and sent out letters assuring anybody from entering the stadium-or their kids would be expelled from every lakewood institution.

They approve it for their good and then assur it!!

They will put a movie theater in out back yard??They will put a hockey stadium in our back yard---which on friday nights will attract all the low lifes for rock concerts!!!!!

to add one more item-The vaad always gave off the inpression they only had the tziburs best in mind. so every year the entire khila voted as per the vaads direction. This year however there was a frum candidate running and the vaad endorsed the goy instead of the frum yid... the frum yid in his campaign was explaining how he will cut property tax by stopping the excess spending in the township. plenty of people saw this and decided that the vaad was obviously not advising them for their intrest but rather the vaad had an agenda. So when the ballots were counted and the frum guy not endorsed by the vaad came in a close second place--the vaad realized they are in hot water and people cought on to their game..... But obviously this vote was too late for the stadium. They kept it a secret till after elections and now the vaad can get paid for their endorsement by the purchase of the land for the hockey stadium...

One more note-the vaad has embedded itself in the township so well that the zoning board will approve anything the vaad wants-thats how ralph zycker/schron get paid back-by getting approvals to build their entertainment complex.......

How did our leadership lead us into becoming a community of schnorrers, opportunists, and sycophantic politician ass kissers? Is this what the Torah has in mind for us? Vote for the meshumid, not the yid, because he will give us more money? Don't we learn that Torah for the sake of money comes to NO GOOD? Have we not raised a generation of cripples, dependent on public money, sucking on the tits of welfare, permanant infants? No wonder there is no leadership today. And probably none tomorrow either, until a generation arises that once again believes in the power of the human mind to THINK!

Setting up this dependency welfare class of people with little to no viable money-earning skills empowers them and gives them control and money.

These "frum" clothed jews are no different than the race-baiting Al Sharptons and the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson's. Ever wonder where Al Sharpton gets his money from? Nobody knows what he does for "living".

I was invited to a Sholosh Seudos last night listening to one of the Lakewood Rosh Yeshiva's say Divrei Torah for 25 minutes on Parshas Va'Yishlach. Totally un-impressive content which easily could have been said in two minutes.To Rav Herschel Schacter's Bekius and Teefkeit in Learning Koomt Es Nisht.

Looking around the room at the Baal'habatim and the Lakewood Bochurim and Yungerleit that had come specially for this "Lakewood Shabbos" I was struck by their "glazed" accepting looks and the fact that they had obviously drank the Kool-Aid. Lakewood which sits atop a 100 million Real Estate Empire needs these difficult to afford Baalabatim contributions like a you need a toothache.

It's all part of the game, a game that will come to an abrupt halt very soon when the next generation cannot field rich Baalabatim with good incomes to support the next phalanx of benk-kvetchers and lazy bums.

The baalabatim are made to feel guilty because they actually work for a living and don't warm benches. When they are shown "respect" by the money hungry thieves cloaked in kapotes they have no choice but to dole out gelt in order to feel "equal" to the "choshuva" yungeleit.

These kapotes got their trade down to a science.They capitalized on the mob mentality ploy by appearing in large groups spread all over Brooklyn.The next thing is for them to do Leno, Letterman & Oprah.

Can it not be possible that the increasing number of children needing "special education" can be related to a virus that was caused by the herpes infection?

Yes, it can be possible for the boys...and for the girls look no further than 3-5th avenues in the 60's-70's streets in Brooklyn where you can see kapotes looking to frolic with "ladies of the evening". Then they go home, already infected with STD's in their system and shtup their wives.

Increasing numbers of these offspring are winding up in HASC and the School For Special Education, as well as Special Ed programs being set up in more and more Yeshiva's. These numbers are unprecendented in our communities.

Why do you suppose that our daughters are going into OT, Speech Therapy, and related Programs and are finding high-paying positions in these fields?

maybe boog can work out all the lakewood vaad/kutler hock--if you dig you will find a wealth of corruption....

BOOG, DO IT FOR THE WORKING PEOPLE IN LAKEWOOD TRYING TO MAKE AN HONEST LIVING IN SPITE OF THE CORRUPTION TRYING TO TAKE IT ALL AWAY FROM THEM.

Maybe if the fools in brooklyn would stop supporting their sons in law to leard so loong there would be more working people in lakewood and less ignoramuss just following the vaads instruction with out knowing what they are actually voting for.

Lakewood has been following every word of the vaad like sheep goung to be slaughtered....... Ignorant!!!!

IN Monsey, a frum Jew was friends with another frum Jew. Frum Jew number stole stole frum Jew number two's business. Nobody said squat. The thief still gets aliyos. Chas v' sholom however you should eat lettuce!

UOJ- The problem is there is not one person to talk to-the entire township is sold to the vaad and every askan is going for the vaad.....Guess either some outside help comes in and exposes this of possibly we need to bring this to the attention of the higher govt offices or the feds....

Its killing me and many others that just cant sit and watch this BS any longer...

I see that all of you are ignorant,stupid,and closedminded.It's no wonder that practically ALL rebbeim across the spectrum say the internet is usser. For the record,I personally have seen many people,both Jew and gentile,speak to the rebbeim I mentioned on these issues and other issues of world concern,and they are more knowledgable than all of you combined.I challenge you to show me SOLID PROOF that I'm wrong.Otherwise it's bittul zman and bittul Torah to have anything to do with anticharedi ignoramisus such all of you.I sincerely hope you do tshuva soon. You can begin by being in touch with any of the gedolim in Israel or any of the rebbeim and rebbetzins in the various baalei tshuva yeshivas.All of you will discover that they are more knowledgeable than you realized and they are more knowledgeable in all areas of life than you,all of you,includingUOJ.

People do have power. The charletons make honest people believe that they don't.Once honest people stand against the 'agenda" ,the charletons usually run. But be carefull if you have children,shidduchim is a big isue. If you mess with the wrong people, your kids might be effected by the "makers and shakers". Rumors and such.Be carefull out there.Just a warning.The shidduchim crisis is an embarrasment.

Be careful how you mix metaphors; it can get very embarrasing. I don't know that virgins have venom. The "snake" first comes out after a few years of marriage.

Machon L'Parnassah in Boro Park is running a special, very affordable course on "Mixing Metaphors" What You Should Know", this coming Z'man.Course Lecturer is "Croonchy" Jakobowitz, a yedid of mine that spent formative years with me in yeshiva k'tana. Mention my name (Boog) to the Registrar and you will get 10% off.If you have an eidim learning in lakewood, this savings can maybe help pay for One breakfast for him.

If it's too shver for you to travel to B.P. I totally understand. You can maybe take ah correspondence course from them?_____________________________________

Anon 7:10 P.M.

No one is forcing you to come here and read this Blog.

Us anti-chareidi ignoramuses need an outlet. This is a safe place for us to do it. Can you imagine if we were banned from coming to this blog? We might Chas Ve'Chulila go to much worse Internet web-sites!

By the way, Tzaddik In Pelz, what are you doing here on the Internet in the first place? Assur L'Cha!

Hide your kids and wives. A hockeygame is coiming to lakewood sponsored by the lakewood yeshiva.However, if your from the community is assur deorisa to attend, unless you get permission from 100 rabbis.Not yu rabbis.Real rabbis.I guess once the deal goes through then Lakewood students wont need any more support frm their baalbatisha fatherinlaws.All expenses paid courtesy of lakewoodyeshiva real estate deals.Atleast now fatherinlaws can have some relief. Perhapes they can buy themselves a new hat after 20 years.Its a proud moment.Please lets not ruin it for the fatherinlaws.We should all support the stadium.

UOJ,I live in lakewood for 3 1/2 years but have yet to go into the yeshiva-believe it or not. Im from brooklyn but moved here for affordable housing and thats all.I have nothing to do with the yeshiva....Please dont associate me with that unworthy cause!

Hey Guys! Back from a wedding in Mexico. Lots has gone on here since I left!

Thans for following up on htis one, UOJ.

I know you guys might disagree, but I think the whole Metziza and Dinosaurs debacles prove that that the Haredim are flat out wrong. The "Modern" Jews simply have to be closer to our traditions, if tradional Judaism is to survive as even a possible theological system in the minds of most Jews who aren't Haredi.

Every sign says so.

I feel bad for black hatters. I uesd to admire them. Then I was angry at them. But now I feel sadness. Almost pity, at least for some.

It's awful. Worse than anger.

I don't know where to go from here, but I guess on some level, it will be easier.

I think these two situations have been a terrible eye opener. At least for some of us.

Before, you could say that all the corruption was simply, well, corruption.

Before these two issues surfaced, you could still argue that the flaws were monetarilly motivated.

But now we see that the flaws run independent of monetary concerns. They are idealistic, and flagrantly fundamentalistic for it's own sake.

So many people commenting on this board ask how we can dare challenge Rabbis of today, when the Talmud appears at times to be much more accepting of some of the most cuttinge edge of modern ideas, such as the idea of "previous worlds." But no, the Arizal said these pevious worlds in Moad Katan were merely "spiritual," so we have to be dogmatic hippies about it. Wouldn't want to not to be spiritual!

I personally suspect that Chanukah was really a Fundamentalist uprising, with lots of blood and guts and intolerance for all. Especially intolerance. For ideas.

The frummies always say that we aren't a Democracy--which is one of the things that we were fighting--and I accept that. But there were checks and balances, and the Hasmonians destroyed that. No longer was there a Judaen King to keep the priests in line. Now there was just the Priests. And they went nuts. The Talmud doesn't seem to like them too much either, so scream all you want, but they were utterly ousted form power eventually. These Maccabis were bad news.

I'm not going to celebrate Chaunakah formally this year. I think the priests forged a "miracle." All the Torah miracles were witnessed by other people. The priests were the ones who "witnessed" this one, and the priests only. Very convenient. Or something more?

I think it is a forgery. That's why it had to be a wussy miracle.

I call foul.

No dreidel spinning for me.

See you guys on Purim. You want to celerate Fundamentalism, that's your business.

The OT, Special Ed and Speech Therapy chicks - you know the ones I am referring to - DO NOT receive a formal education at such institutes of higher learning as NYU, Columbia (Columbia?! Surely you jest!)etc.

Sure, they do a brief stint at Touro, but a large portion of their education is done via correspondence courses involving "colleges" like Thomas Edison a la Raizel Rite.

Zweibel has been pretty outspoken on metzitzah b'peh. Several letters to the Jewish Week, and now quoted saying that he wished the Health Department hadn't sent out its letter. This sounds like a lawyer who believes in what he's doing.

Anyway, mark my prediction here. There will be a 360 degree reversal by Rabbis Elyashiv, Belsky, and all the yeshivish. Based on new medical information that has come to light, it is now our opinion.....etc. The Chassidim are another matter.

In New York "sick" people say you can't drink the water; in Mexico you get "sick" when you drink the water.Hatzad Hashavah s'bhen is "sick",sick Jews in New York are talking out of their asses.(Purim Torah before Channukakh)

Anyway, I made this up in your honor....please don't sell this to Jackie Mason.

I don't see a problem with metzitza b'peh as long as the mohel has himself tested for the herpes virus as often as required to insure the safety of the children.

______________________________

DK:

I think that you are unaquainted with the facts of the miracle of Chanuka.

The Maccabees were holy people.

Perhaps they were supposed to relinquish control to a desendant of King David.

They paid dearly for that with their line becoming extinct many years later.

The miracles were present for all to see.

They won an impossible war.

There was no oil. You think the Temple was a store house? You think they kept buckets of the stuff in front of the menorah? They kept the oil in a store room that everybody had access to. The stores were ransacked and the oil was defiled. Everybody searched for oil. Everybody recognized that no one was playing tricks with them.

Except for a few "intellectuals" who don't believe anything that happened in the past.

Those people say that many events didn't occur.Like..........The HolocostThe CossaksBosniaWWI

Lakewood Yid,I guess you are a yeshiva reject along with all the other fans. Otherwise,you would have spoken with more intelligence.Also,if you are so unhappy with Lakewood then move out or be happy with what Hashem has given you.Apparently, this site is for people who are not grateful for everything Hashem has done for you.I,unlike you,all of you,am happy just to be alive.Think about it.

boog,you also were not able to succeed in yeshiva,otherwise you'd be spending your spare time learning or at least attending shuirim.One other thing boog, there are at least three sides to every story;his side,the other guys side, and the truth.I challenge you boog,have you checked ALLLL primary sources on whatever the topic is being discussed, or do you only rely on this web site and whatever other people tell you?For the record, boog, my profession was in communal service.I was also an assistant news editor for a college radio station,among other activities that required knowing all sides of the story.Can you say the same? I doubt it because you are so caught up in your in your emotions that you don't have the ability to think objectively and critically. This is not an attack on you, boog.I'm only saying that there is more than one way of looking at things.If you still think I'm naive or dumb or whatever,I was a social worker for a number of years and have worked with all kinds of people and continue to see all sorts of things that none of you,thank G-d,will ever have to see.However,I make sure to keep my emotions and thoughts in check.I confer with people in my field and with whoever else is necessary.I have found rebbeim to be quite helpful all over world.Idon't get hung up on the few negative things that must be changed.Believe me, at least from my experiences,there are many good people out there, including charedi Jews and rabbis.Most importantly,I realize that everything is from Hashem except fear of Hashem and everything is for the good.When one realizes that they fix what they can and don't complain.First they daven, since all power comes from Hashem, including the ability to type and see and read,and then they do whatever can be done without complaining and are grateful for everything they have and are therefore not sarcastic and cynical and negative and anticharedi.If you,and everyone else that is reading this realizes that,then this website will not exist.Now do whatever you can without complaining and that's it.Hatzlacha!

Once again you missed the point.UOJ,if you really think that you are right and everyone else is wrong, then produce SOLID proof and not just allegations.Also,UOJ,if you really think you're right then show some guts and courage and tell us your name,which yeshivot you attended,and show us WRITTEN haskamot for your website and work.One more thing.Onaat devarim is never a mitzvah.I just happen to be a ger tzeddik and an orphan.I will never forgive you. for the pain you,gross and UOJ,caused.You are my enemies for now and forever.BEWARE!!G-d hears the cries of orphans!!!!

It is my sincere hope that one day I, too, shall attain your level of cogent and concise expression.

If you have carefully read all of the threads ensconced in this blog, you will readily note the well-deserved praise that has been bestowed upon several well-known and not so well-known personalities within the Orthodox, be they in the Chareidi, Modern Orthodox, or Litvish camps.

OU, David Kelsey, Gross, et al; have listed names and given due credit.

There are those, however, that merit expoure for the harm and calumny they bring upon us.

We are happy, yes we are, to be able to tell the phonies to take a hike.

Boruch Hashem for the internet.

When I start a city or a town or a yeshiva, EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO SIGN A LETTER STATING THAT THEY AGREE TO BE KICKED OUT UNLESS "THEY HAVE A TV & INTERNET ACCESS"!We don't want assholes or the sons of assholes in our cities or schools.

The reason the internet is banned is because of blogs like this. The phonies saw it coming. They realized that the web is a medium of mass communication that is too easiest to broadcast. So, they pretend they are assuring the internet because of the pornographic content. We know better...

Now, when they f**k up, word gets out in seconds - to thousands of disgusted people! Thanks to the advent of blogs, "whistleblowers" on the "inside" can tell all without fear of retribution!

UO-I was just trying to shake him off with his own medicine.You gotta hand it to the BT's they are so so innocent!

A friend just told me this story...."A BT tells me after simchas torah that he heard a great new song. I was expecting something off the latest MBD cd so i asked him to sing it-guess what his "new" song was??

Emmes emmes emmes atoh hu yoitzrom ai ai ai emmes emmes...."

Just trying to make you smile-and show you how innocent and harmless these ppl truly are.

I'm a BT for more than 25 years after a stint of about a year in well known BT yeshiva, married to full fledged FFB, kids go to mainstream yeshivas, I daven and learn in mainstream shuls and yeshivas, I have a professional job, consider myself knowledgeable in learning, and I don't get the emes, emes song. Please explain.

Thanks, and now I "got" it. I can see why its funny, and it also proves you two are authentic.

I guess I'm well integrated, considering my starting point. I've met and dealt with some of the personalities mentioned on this site. This site has been very interesting for me, and at times, an eye opener. The list, in particular, of rabbis and others who are good, in between and bad/stupid, was hilarious, had a lot of truth, and confirmed much of what I suspected. At times, unfortunately, the facts I've read on this site have saddened me. Baruch Hashem, we have a Torah Kedushah, that no rabbi in the world can ever take away from us. No rabbi can ever interfere between a Jew and G-d. As for me, I'm trying to do some things for the klal, although its not easy. Orthodox Jewry does not work very well. At the top, there are fools and batlanim who just don't know what they're doing. I pity them. When you just think about our history, where we came from, everything that's occurred over the last century, our potential here in America today, and how we are actually conducting ourselves today - communally - it is enough to make you sick. But we should never let ourselves get "down". That was the error of the meraglim - the pessimists who Rashi calls r'shaim. With G-d above, and some hishtadlus, we can and will make this a better world (a besser velt - is that good Yiddish? - it makes me more authentic.)

gross,you're not human or Jewish.period.Mockers and scoffers can never be reasoned with,therefore all fans of UOJ can't be reasoned with as per the Mussar sefarim.Hey,you going to start making fun of that too?Hitler and Stalin are proud of all you UOJ fans.So,when are you going to suggest charedim and their rabbis should be burnt and gassed,huh,UOJ andall you fans?

Only a fool would not acknowledge the problems in the frum world today.

Tuition.....shiduchim....sex abuse....genaiva.....the American prisons are filling up with frum Jews.

We are not mockers and scoffers. These are all FACTS being stated. These FACTS almost need no commentary.

At a Torah Umesorah Convention on sex abuse in 2003, the Chicago Telshe Rosh Yeshiva, Rabbi Levin said we can no longer sweep these problems under the rug, there's no more room. That's a quote.

Wake up! Since you have a computer, go onto Amazon and buy a book called "Real Jews", and you'll read about the madness of the chareidim in Eretz Yisroel. Vast unemployment, gouging of benefits, draft dodging, you name it. This book was actually reviewed in the Jewish Observer, by Jonathan Rosenblum (although the next month they said it was a mistake to review it.)

The only problem is that you're a fraud,otherwise you'd identify yourself,which yeshivot you attended,and which rebbeim gave written haskamot.If you're afraid to provide the answers,then you're more afraid of man than G-d,which is proof that you're a charlatan and don't tell the emet.

Why is UOJ a fraud for not identifying himself? You are anonymous too!

gross,you're not human or Jewish.period.Mockers and scoffers can never be reasoned with,therefore all fans of UOJ can't be reasoned with as per the Mussar sefarim.Hey,you going to start making fun of that too?

First attain some knowledge of the "basics" and then you can start preaching mussar

Hitler and Stalin are proud of all you UOJ fans.

Last I checked the above referenced were dead - let me know if you are privy to information that proves otherwise - while you're at it see if you got any info on Elvis or the Rebbe too.

So,when are you going to suggest charedim and their rabbis should be burnt and gassed,huh,UOJ andall you fans?

I'll defend UOJ. His writing seems credible to me. With the type of information he's giving out, its understandable that he, or anybody else, would want to remain anonymous. He doesn't have to destroy his whole life, and his family's, by stating his name. He'll become a pariah, and we both know that.

You have to start somewhere. Truth and ideas can never be suppressed. They will emerge, and so will justice.

The FBI and all police departments take anonymous complaints. Can the Jews do no less? The truth has to be told. And then people have to act on it.

If he identifies his yeshivas and rabbinical endorsements, people might guess who he is, so why does that make him a charlatan?

Give the guy a break. He doesn't have to do this. He says he's got money and position, and I believe him. He's trying to make things better.

Every nation, including us, needs a voice of conscience, people who will throw our bad deeds in our face, and rouse us to teshuva. Ezra said leave your Gentile wives in Bavel. Rabbi SR Hirsch, talks about Elkana rousing the people to go to Yerushalayim, and do avodas H'. The leaders were doing nothing at the time.

Each one of us have to do our share. We can't rely on the fools who are the leaders today. They just don't lead. And first, the emes has to come out.

If you don't want emes, I suggest you sign up for a liftime subscription to Agudah Conventions. You'll hear more sheker there than the U.N. One year I went, and I heard Rabbi Ahron Feldman from Ner Yisroel give the motzei Shabbos keynote speech. His important message was not to walk and eat at the same time (as if he's never been to a smorg). After this keynote speech, I felt like saying kinot. Is this the critical issue of the day?

I go to great lengths to keep my identity anonymous, not because I'm ashamed of what I do and say, I know it's all true, but for the reasons you posed above.

What I've learned since I began writing this blog, THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE OUGHT TO HEAR, not the touchy feely goody stuff I used to say.So I'm a Baal T'shuva, I've turned a new leaf, and I'm "saying" what must be said rather than the bullshit I used to parrot.

I have been asked to host a radio talk show as UOJ....I'm thinking about it.

It is really incredible that no one has had the guts to blow the whistle on little heinee-man, until these few postings on the UOJ blog. The story on how he screwed Chaimowitz and turned that plant into a treif meat factory has been pushed under the rug by all of the Kashrus agencies.

Mention this topic and heineeman's involvement to Reisman, Scheinerman and other Kashrus Machers and a glazed look comes over their faces. But Reisman holds court every Saturday night with his Navi Shiur, smugly lecturing his audience to discern right from wrong in the Paths of the Prophets and Scheinerman never misses an opportunity to find a bug crawling on your lettuce leaf and screaming his hatred for those Apikorsim that want to build an Eruv in Flatbush and shouts about the Kefira being spread by the Y.U. Rabbi's.

You fake, phony, Shmucks! Here before you and shoulder-to-shoulder with you is a heinne-man Star-K giving out hashgochos which aren't worth shit and transgressing the Lifnei EEvare, BIG TIME!! Who knows how many people have eaten meat with his Star-K hashgocho on it and might as well have gone to McDonalds.

How many of your congregants have eaten and are eating, right now, Star-K, heinee-man hashgocho-meat?

Another interesting comment about Rabbi Reisman which now confirms my weak opinion of him. I went to one navi shiur of his, where he dealt with baalei teshuva, and all the "problems" we face. He made it sound as if we should be pitied. Among his points: we should ask our parents who our mohelim were, because maybe we did not have a kosher bris. I asked a real talmid chochom this question, and he said, no way.

There are other people throughout the ages that said they were telling the truth and challenged the rabbis and leaders of the generation.The first one was Korach.As for the others and their followers,either their children intermarried or they became haredi.

Are ALL the Chassidim Korachs, because they broke off from the rigid straighjacket of yeshiva-world pilpulistic Judaism? And what about the religious Zionists and modern and central orthodox? They broke off too. Are all the Soloveichiks Korachs?

Can you explain why 90% of American Jewry today is not orthodox? Here's one reason: many of them think we stink - as you do - and they're right.

Can you explain how and why the haskalah movement started? Because some of them thought that some of the orthodox stunk then - and they were also right.

Can you explain why so many traditional but nonothodox Israelis can't stand the Haredim? Here's a reason - they see with their own eyes that some of the Haredim stink. And they're right.

Remember the gas masks in the first gulf war? The Haredim forced the government to spend millions of dollars more for making larger ones to put over their big beards. G-d forbid they should trim or even shave off their beards, out of some misguided sense of patriotic duty.

How about kollels wasting our money? How about Harediim unemployment? How about Haredim gouging of public benefits?

People like you call people like me Korachs, so people like me are calling people like you an idiot. You're an idiot, you're an idiot, you're an idiot. Do teshuva. Read some books, you stupid idiot moron. People like you make me sick.

And UOJ, thanks for clarification of what I said Reisman said. And you probably weren't even there. You got it, you know your stuff. Maybe the mohel wasn't shomer Shabbos, so BTs have to have blood drawn again.

When you point the finger at others,there are three that point back at you.You obviously haven't studied the history of these movements.I'm not going to waste my time giving history lessons,but a good place to start is the Harvard Divinity Department.And which university were you zoche to go to?

You were the first finger pointer, remember?, or are you brain damaged. YOU called US Korachs? Remember? It wasn't that long ago, just a few minutes, remember?

You're an imbecile. But you're also a baal sheker. Because YOU first called us Korachs, and then I defended "us". Remember, shmuk?Now you're calling me the finger pointer. So that makes you a baal sheker. Got it?

You don't want to argue over 18th, 19th, or even 20th century Jewish history. Fine. How about the last ten years? Five years? One year? Satmar and Bobov internal fistfights and court fights. Million dollar Chassidic scandals and Jews in jail. Defending the indefensible metzitzh b'peh, which has killed and neurolgically damaged babies? Millions of assimilated American Jews who will not walk into an orthodox shul. And I used to be one of them. I am a solidly entrenched, long time BT, and I've seen quite a few BTs drop out, because they're disgusted by the "scene".

By the way moron, if one Jew insults another - which you did when you called me and my friends Korachs - I'm allowed to immediately insult back. Isn't that right, FFB shithead? F you, f you, f you, f you.

I have a neshama from the Ribono Shel Olam, the Torah is mine too, and dirty dogs like you calling me and my friends Korachs will never change that. EAT KAKKA!

You write superbly, and express all of the UOJ fans' sentiments.The other guys don't get it.It took me years to understand what I observed. It just didn't register.How could it be that this tzaddik did this & that?I did NOT want to believe what I saw and heard!Then I started speaking up in public forums or board meetings only to be slandered and cursed.

So now I'm in cyberspace doing what every right minded person should be doing; not standing up against the animals and greedy bastards that have crippled our once beautiful religion.

Here's a number for you.Approximately 42% of people born & raised since 1970 until the present, raised FFB, are no longer frum.

Anonymous5:26,you are irrational and unbalanced.You need psychiatric help NOW!!!!!!!!!!Take a prozak or valium or check yourself into Bellevue.There is definitely nothing Jewish or human about you.You've made yourself lower than an animal the way you rant and rave.Grow up already and stop talking like a rebellious teenagerscreaming at his parents.Really,now!You're really nuts.

Now you're talking like a Christian. Its always been a Christian complaint: you Jews are so rude, so undiplomatic. You dirty Jews. You rant and rave. Let's just have peace and good will for all man. Turn the other cheek. Why bother having 613 mitzvos? Its not what you put into your mouths (kashrus, moron), its just what comes out. You money changers in the temple, so ugly, let's throw them out. Something about shekels you say?, oh no, that's crazy, its impolite.

Yes, yes, the truth is rude. They call it the ugly truth. The truth hurts. Tough crap, you're a moron. You called me and my pals Korachs, you're a moron and everything else I said.

Hello, UOJ, I'm rodefemes, I just didn't bother identifying myself. Keep up the good work.

TO; Anon. who said, It takes one to know one. Real smart comeback. I used to say it in public school. Are you now calling me a Christian? Or moron? Which is it? But who really cares? Anway, Shutup already asshole.

Just an aside. Rabbi Yonason Rosenblum, of Jewish Observer, Art Scroll, op ed fame, wrote a tribute to Rabbi Nachman Bulman, saying that he used to scream too, frequently calling people "pea brains." Rosenblum said that when he called on the phone, he learned to keep the phone a few inches away from his ear. I stand in pretty good company.

Now I understand why you speak like a shagetz.I personally knew Rabbi Bulman from America and Israel.Only once did I ever see him get angry and it was for kavod hatorah.I never saw him call anyone names,therefore,I don't believe you.Yes,after your diatribe I'm calling you a liar.Plus you and all the other UOJ fans are gullible because you believe everything you read,otherwise this blog would not exist.

You've done it again. How stupid can you be? You've called me a liar, and a shaigetz, and now I'm permitted to insult you back.

So, FFB shithead, go onto Jewish Media Resources, click onto Rabbi Bulman, A Passionate Life, by Rabbi Yonason Rosenblum, dated August 9, 2002, and there you will read that "the actions of the 'pea brains' (his favorite epithet) within our own community frequently drove him to righteous indignation".

Someplace else, Rosenblum wrote that Rabbi Bulman frequently yelled, and Rosenblum learned to hold the phone a distance from his ear, but I have a real job, I'm at work, and I'm too busy to find it now. Go find it yourself.

If you would have stopped to have thought about what I first wrote, you never would have challenged me. I gave you what is called, "verifiable information". I identified two names, Bulman and Rosenblum, and gave you quotes, and said it was written. But you called me a liar and a shaigetz. Think, you dummy!

But let's go a little deeper. You're part of the problem. People like you AUTOMATICALLY never believe people like me. Everything is a fight. A quarrel. I knew Rabbi Bulman, he would never say peabrain, it can't be so, he never got angry except once, blah, blah, blah.

I, on the other hand, often believe people. I don't need DNA. I don't need fingerprints. I believe the Jews who complain about being victims of Chareidi ganeiva. I believe the women and children who complain about being raped and molested. I don't need books and records, videos, I believe the victims, and that's whose side I'm on. I also believe the UOJs, and what they write about the creeps within out midst.

I knew Rabbi Bulman too, by the way. I attended his shiurim. He yelled all the time.

UOJ. 42% is a powerful figure. The reason why I ask is because I may want to put it to future use, cite the source, and pass it on to my friends. Don't go crazy trying to find it, though, because its no big deal.

You never even met Rav Bulman.You're not only a liar,you're a ba'al loshon hora.By the way,I more than attend his shiurim.I was a ben bayit.If you did see him then from your behavior I believe you that he yelled at you all the time.You're probably a wifebeater too.On the other hand who would want to marry a creep like you?She must have been awful desperate or just plain blind.GET A LIFE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FOUND IT! Mishpacha Magazine, July 14, 2004. "A Man for All Yidden", by Rabbi Yonason Rosenblum. This was the article I actually read, and it is asomewhat re-written version of his 2002 article about Rabbi Bulman. The quote: "There were times when Rabbi Bulman called that I instinctively knew to hold the phone at a safe distance from my ear."

I like the title, "A Man for all Yidden".

You, shmuko, on the other hand, the one who called me korach, liar, and shaigetz, are a man (dan l'kaf zchus) for some yidden - yidden like yourselves. A tzaddik in peltz, keeping himself warm at Agudah conventions, with all of the other tzadikim in peltz.

Anon. 7:35 pm: I missed this comment before, and maybe its a good thing I did.

Anyway, on the way home, and even after reading this last comment, I have some charata. I thought you had a thicker skin, like the others here, but obviously not.

OK, you were a ben bayit. I believe you. I'm guessing you're a BT, and maybe a relatively recent one at that, because I think you're on the young side too. I'm also guessing that you're single for a while, and looking hard for a shidduch.

Our acrimonious exchange started when you attacked UOJ as a Korach. That's very simplistic, and that's why I'm guessing you're young, single, and a recent BT. Your 7:35 pm comment confirms this - its just childish.

The world is not one-dimensional, my friend. This is what I've learned as a practicing Jew, husband and father, more than 20 years after leaving my BT yeshiva. I worship G-d, not rabbis. Our greatest rabbis make errors, and there are some simpletons, unfortunately, who pose as great rabbis.

All of the bloggers here strike me as decent men, even yorei shomayim, who can't stand the Jewish world we see, and want to improve it. We need a tikkun. I've heard one gadol who I admire, Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, practically beg people, in his public addresses, to get involved in klal activities. He sounds like JFK - what can you do for klal Yisroel.

Anyway, I apologize for the nivel peh I used in returning the insult after your Korach comment. Kol tuv.

I just wanted to add something to what I said about Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky. In his public addresses, he's been asking people to get involved in klal activities.

Why?

Because he acknowledges things aren't so good today. He needs help. His fellow rabbis need help. He's acknowledging that he's overwhelmed by the problems, and he doesn't know how to fix them. Its a plea - he's calling out to us. Help. The rabbis can't do it alone.

I know that UOJ has issues with him, but consider, in general, that rabbis, just like "ordinary" Jews, also grow. He's an emesdik rabbi. And that's why I like him, and this blog. Lots of emes.

I think you're the guy to do something on this. Start an Internet petition for all frum Jews to sign, with a special place for doctors. Take out ads in the Jewish Papers notifying people about the petition, and inform the general media. Lo sa'amod al dam raecha. Let's just not stand here, let's do something. This is a major Chillul Hashem, out of control. If it saves one Jewish baby, its worth it.

Aguda claims they're supported by "the testimony of health professionals" saying that the incidence of neonatal herpes is "extremely rare" and serious illness therefrom is "rarer still". WHAT "testimony"? There is none! - just some rabbis who think they know more medicine than the doctors at Hopkins, LIJ, etc. who have come out against MBP. And, WHO are the "health professionals" - not even doctors, no names, just "health professionals".

Why the helll does the Agudah feel the need to stick their noses into everything? They should keep out of it if they don't want to be truthful. I bet Zweibel wouldn't allow Metzizah B'Peh to be performed on his son! Tell me I'm wrong!

Website is canonist.com, and it is the creation of Steven Weiss, who is a pretty good and responsible journalist. I frequently see his work in the Forward.

One of these days, I'll figure out how to paste and e-mail at the same time, and when I do, you'll be one of my first recipients.

If you do a petition, I think the actual wording is crucial. The wording needs to be as inclusive as possible, not turning anybody off - citing rabbis (Chasam Sofer, RCA, NYC Health Dept., etc.), and doctors (from Hopkins and LIJ, as quoted in the Jewish Week). Maybe collaborate with Rabi Tendler - he's got this stuff on his fingertips.

I'm currently reading, "Collected Writings of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch". Page 168: We addres ourselves to those who, though conscientious about fulfilling their sacred duties in their own lives, believe it is sufficient if they kep their own persons and homes scrupulously loyal to their duty but are satisfied to leave the religious affairs of the community to run their own course.....It is these individuals whom we wish to admonish. They are tragically mistaken in their belief that the responsibility for the religious affairs of their community is not part of their duty as Jewish individuals. They should realize that it is not to the rabbis and boards of directors but to the community, to the Hehillath Yaakov, that G-d has entrusted His Torah as an inheritance....."

Page 174: "It is not with the Jewish individual but with the Jewish community that G-d made the covenant set forth in His Law and in His promises. He has promised His nearness not to the individual Jew but to the Jewish community. Not even the matchless piritual and moral greatness of a Moses could make the Glory of G-d descend from heaven and come close to us on earth. Only the thousands and myriads of the community of the Jewish nation, rallying around G-d, could obtain this supreme gift....."

Go for it. The Jewish PEOPLE need to be heard from - not just a handful of administrators at Aguda purporting to speak for the whole community.

I don't think there will be jail. Metzitzah b'peh is not a crime; nor is it civilly barred, and most likely never will be. Enforcement would be impossible. Also, sucking blood from wounds has been around a long time...the common perception is that it cleans the wound, speeds the coagulation. You used to see it in Western movies, when somebody got snakebit. We now know this is not a good idea, we have hygiene, antiseptic practice, etc.

The City Health Department has properly issued a strong warning, in my opinion. Now we in the community should do the same. I'll bet there are many yeshivish and even Chassidish who are silently against MBP, but are currently afraid to speak up - but might, if many others do.

Look what happened to the Boro Bark Eruv. First one, then two, .....

The Aguda statement is typical. Trying to satisfy all of the "constituents", but ultimately saying nothing. It is so poorly written, its an embarrassment. "Bully pulpit", what is that. Dr. Frieden, of the Health Dept., obviously has a conscience. This is exactly what health departments are supposed to do. Its no different than from what occurred 20 or so years ago, when a bunch of Chinese accupunturists came here, wanting to practice. The Health Dept. jumped in, and said, you have to use clean needles, we're going to regulate you under law, give you a test, etc. And that's what happened.

Right now, in America, there is no Society of Mohelim setting standards, giving certifications. Great Britain has it, for example. This is shameful.

We can't have it both ways. You can't have a situation where the government is not regulating the mohelim, and the mohelim are not regulating themselves. And certainly, the government has the legal right to regulate mohelim if they want to - just like accupuncturists, podiatrists, hairdressers, etc.

So WE have to regulate the mohelim. Think about the petition idea. You've got money and position. The power of an idea is incalculable. You've got money, position, and time, and you can do something about it.

Rodefemes, UO, and all Readers of this UO Blog: Here is the complete Agudah response to NYC Health Dept on MBP from Steven Weiss' canonist.com blog which he published yesterday:_________________________________________

Agudath Israel’s Statement on Herpes CircumcisionsDecember 21st, 2005

The following was released yesterday:

On December 13, 2005, the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene published an “Open Letter to the Jewish Community” recommending against the practice of metzitzah b’peh. Agudath Israel of America issued the following statement in reaction to this development. “While the New York City Health Department honored its commitment not to prohibit or otherwise regulate the practice of metzitzah b’peh, Agudath Israel of America is deeply troubled by the Department’s unprecedented and highly selective use of its bully pulpit authority to publicly attack a millennia-old practice that many Orthodox Jewish communities and rabbinical authorities regard as an integral and indispensable part of the ritual obligation of bris milah. “The Department’s statement, though couched in terms of a recommendation, could have a severe negative impact on substantial segments of our constituency. Not only will such public pronouncement inevitably result in enormous social stigma of those communities that are committed to the practice of metzitzah b’peh as a matter of religious obligation, it could also serve as the foundation for future regulation of this essential religious practice. “The testimony of health professionals who serve the communities where metzitzah b’peh is commonly practiced is that any incidence of neonatal herpes following metzitzah b’peh is at worst extremely rare, and that any incidence of serious illness resulting therefrom is rarer still. The Health Department’s issuance of its public warning in the face of such testimony is a highly objectionable use of Departmental authority.”

My inquiry in response:

It would appear from your statement that you don't reject the notion that metzitzah b'feh is a health risk, writing instead that the risk is "rarer" than "extremely rare." If this is not Agudath Israel's position, please clarify. If this is Agudath Israel's position, I have the following question: what level of risk for serious illness or death does the Agudath Israel consider necessary before either a warning or a ban becomes appropriate?______________________________________

Boog says:

Excellent question, Steven. Would any of the Aguda directors want to take this risk with their children or grand children? Bloom? Gertzulin?

Second, who indeed are these "Health professionals" that Agudah refers to? Names?

Here are several questions that Steven Weiss posed RE: MBP to the Dept of Health and their answers:________________________________________

Q & A With the Department of Health on Metzitzah B’feh

I sent in some questions, and they sent back some answers, some more satisfactory than others.1) When in 2005 did the Department of Health learn of the two new infections, and why did it wait until now to release information about them?The first in March 2005; the second in late October/early November 2005. Discovery of the latest cases together with the delay in the beit din's investigation results regarding Mohel B prompted the issuance of the letter. Reluctance by some parties to provide information for our investigation also crystallized the need to broaden our public health education message.2) What kept the DOH from issuing its letter of warning to the jewish community until last week?Pls refer to the answer above as well as this excerpt from the letter. "We have always maintained that it is our preference for the religious community to address these issues itself as long as the public's health is protected."3) If the CRC had acted differently, would the DOH not have issued this letter?The department's position regarding the risk of herpes transmission associated with metzitzah b'peh has been made clear in multiple meetings with community leaders and predates the beit din's investigation of Mohel B. Additionally, the letter was also issued because the Department concluded that the facts surrounding the cases were not otherwise being communicated to the community.4) Is the Department concerned about the possibility that additional infections may have occurred between handing responsibility to the CRC and the release of the letter?The department is certainly concerned about herpes transmission through metzitzah b'peh and we feel that we are pursuing what we consider to be the most prudent approach at this time. Furthermore, the Department did not "hand" over responsibility to the CRC. Rather, the Department was satisfied that there was no need for a court order so long as Mohel B agreed to abide by the direction of the beit din and not to perform metzitzah b'peh. However, the Department has at all times retained its authority to take actions it deems appropriate to protect the public health.5) At what point did the Department decide that it would release the letter?See above.6) Why has the DOH elected not to pursue a legal ban on the practice, if infants' lives and health are in danger?Again, response to this is in the letter, also copied here. [excerpt from letter–>"we have always maintained that it is our preference for the religious community to address these issues itself as long as the public's health is protected. While some medical professionals and others in the Jewish community have called on the department to completely ban metzitzah b'peh at this time, it is our opinion that educating the community through public health information and warnings is a more realistic approach. "]7) At the point of handing the matter to the CRC, did the department of health have specific expectations or understandings about the outcome of the CRC's deliberations? If so, what were they?It has been our understanding throughout that Mohel B has ceased the practice of metzitzah b'peh while the beit din conducts an investigation. Additionally, we expect that the CRC will advise the Department when the beit din has finished its investigation, and hope that it will also notify the community of its conclusions regarding Mohel B.8) Did the Department of Health and CRC negotiate a December 1 deadline for CRC deliberations? If so, why was the CRC allowed that much time?The agreement was that the CRC would assure that Mohel B did not practice metzitzah b'peh, during the pendency of the beit din's investigation, which was supposed to be concluded by on or about December 1. The Department did not negotiate that date, it was submitted by the beit din.9) To what extent has the mayor or the mayor's office generally been involved in all of these decisions?The mayor's office has heard from concerned community leaders and has been updated about the situation.

Rebuking the city’s health commissioner, two pediatricians with longtime practices in fervently Orthodox neighborhoods this week said that Dr. Thomas Frieden has failed to convince them that a controversial circumcision procedure practiced in those communities is endangering the health of infants.

Drs. Robert Adler and Steven Styler said Frieden has not proven a link between metzitzah b’peh, in which the mohel sucks the blood orally during circumcision, and life-threatening herpes in newborns.

Frieden last week issued an unprecedented “open letter to the Jewish community” warning parents against allowing mohels to use metzitzah b’peh, linking the practice directly to seven cases of herpes among baby boys from the fervently Orthodox community.

One case was in 1988, another in 1998, and five cases occurred over the past two years, three of them traced to one mohel, Rabbi Yitzchak Fischer. One of the infected babies died and another has suffered brain damage.

“I’m aware of a couple of isolated cases, but am not aware that there have been sufficient cases for me to agree with [Frieden],” said Styler, whose office is in Borough Park, Brooklyn. “It’s too bad that the documented number of cases cannot be more firmly established. The question is whether it’s common enough to pose a real risk. The number that would be? I’m not prepared to offer an opinion.”

Health Department spokesman Andrew Tucker said this week that the number of cases, along with the timing of the first symptoms of blisters in the genital area within days of the boys’ brises, proves a link to metzitzah b’peh.

“Statistically, with an estimated 30 cases of neonatal herpes in New York City per year, even a single case resulting from metzitzah b’peh contributes significantly,” Tucker said. “Since approximately 10 percent of all neonatal herpes cases occur after delivery, in New York City this would be three cases per year. A single case due to metzitzah b’peh would be even more statistically significant.”

Herpes is most commonly spread to babies from their mothers during birth, when the newborns come into contact with ulcers in their mothers’ genital areas.

Herpes Type 1 is not the variety usually described as a sexually transmitted disease but rather in healthy adults causes nothing more than cold sores. In people with weak immune systems, as all newborns have, it can cause meningitis, liver damage and even death.

In legal papers it filed several months ago, the Health Department said newborns that contract the disease suffer a mortality rate of about 30 percent.

Most adults have contracted herpes Type 1 by the time they are 40, and some can pass on the virus even when they are showing no signs of mouth sores.

The Health Department, in an advisory to physicians last week, warned that as many as 20 percent of babies who contract herpes may not develop skin lesions, “so providers must maintain a high index of suspicion for herpes infection following circumcision which includes metzitzah b’peh.”

Styler and Adler are on the medical advisory committee of an organization of fervently Orthodox mohels called the American Board of Ritual Circumcision, and have long experience caring for children from haredi communities.

Adler, who has offices in Borough Park and Williamsburg, was asked by the family of one of the boys who contracted herpes this year whose case has been cited by the Health Department to examine the baby at Maimonides Medical Center about a month ago, “even though the infectious disease person there didn’t think that his lesions were consistent with herpes,” the doctor said.

If it was herpes, Adler said, it may have been caused by a member of the baby’s family who had a cold sore and unwittingly transmitted it to him while changing his diaper, if the adult had touched his or her mouth with their fingers and then touched the baby’s genital area.

Tucker said that in this and the other cases cited by the Health Department, “the medical circumstances are inconsistent with infection acquired at delivery, in the newborn nursery or from caretakers.”

These herpes cases, he said, “are consistent with acquisition at circumcision” because of their timing and the location of the herpes sores, among other things.

Another doctor on the medical advisory committee of the American Board of Ritual Circumcision said he takes the health commissioner’s warning against metzitzah b’peh very seriously.

“It’s not a healthy practice because of transmission of herpes,” said Dr. Edward Gindi, who serves a largely Sephardic clientele in the Midwood section of Brooklyn. When mothers come in with their baby boys for the first visit after giving birth, “I advise them to avoid it,” he said.

The metzitzah b’peh technique is used only in the fervently Orthodox community. Out of concern over the transmission of disease, mohels serving other segments of the Jewish community have for decades used sterile glass tubes or sterile gauze for suctioning instead.

Mohels who maintain the practice believe metzitzah b’peh has been mandated by God and used safely since the time of Moses.

They also believe that the city has not proven its case, said Romi Cohen, chairman of the American Board of Ritual Circumcision, which has certified three dozen mohels, most of whom employ the practice.

Cohen formed the organization about a year ago, he said in an interview, out of concern for the professional standards and skill among mohels. His members are required to submit blood tests twice a year proving that they have not contracted herpes, HIV or hepatitis B, he said.

David Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel, an organization that represents the interests of the fervently Orthodox community, estimates that metzitzah b’peh is performed more than 2,000 times a year in New York City.

The group issued a statement this week criticizing the Health Department for “a highly objectionable use of Departmental authority” when it issued last week’s statement, an “unprecedented and highly selective use of its bully pulpit authority to publicly attack a millennia-old practice.”

About a year ago the city started investigating Rabbi Fischer. In another unprecedented move, earlier this year the Health Department turned that case over to a religious court in Williamsburg to adjudicate.

When the bet din did not issue a ruling by an agreed-upon deadline of Dec. 1, the Health Department issued its statement.

Department officials said last week they also felt compelled to issue the statement by the discovery of two new cases this year they believe were caused by a mohel using metzitzah b’peh.

One of those babies is thought to have suffered brain damage; the other is believed to be recovering.

Tucker said this week that the babies’ families are not cooperating with the investigation and the Health Department has been unable to learn which mohel or mohels may be responsible.

“We have made many attempts with multiple potential sources to obtain information” about the circumstances of the babies’ infections, he said.

In a statement issued late last week, the Central Rabbinical Congress of the U.S.A. and Canada, as the Williamsburg religious court is known, said it “is nearing a decision concerning a mohel mentioned in earlier reports and the broader safety questions raised by the Health Department.”

In the next paragraph, however, the court reiterated its long-held stance that “we believe that continuing the religious practice of metzitzah b’peh is highly safe.”

And while Frieden last week urged new parents to consult with their pediatricians about the practice, the rabbinical court tried to direct them back to religious authorities.

“We will work with expectant mothers and fathers in our community to urge them to consult with their rabbis as they approach the blessed event of celebrating a bris for a newborn boy,” the statement said.

Most adults have contracted herpes Type 1 by the time they are 40, and some can pass on the virus even when they are showing no signs of mouth sores.

THIS ALONE IS WHY IT IS HALACHICALLY PROHIBITED AND NEEDS NO INTERPRETATION!

About a year ago the city started investigating Rabbi Fischer. In another unprecedented move, earlier this year the Health Department turned that case over to a religious court in Williamsburg to adjudicate.

Bad move on the part of the City. They were afraid to mess with the Chareidim and now it’s stabbing us in the back. It should be declared ILLEGAL!

Tucker said this week that the babies’ families are not cooperating with the investigation and the Health Department has been unable to learn which mohel or mohels may be responsible.

Of course they are not cooperating. They are either brainwashed or afraid for their own safety! Oh, they are also afraid to ruin “shit-duchim…”

In a statement issued late last week, the Central Rabbinical Congress of the U.S.A. and Canada, as the Williamsburg religious court is known, said it “is nearing a decision concerning a mohel mentioned in earlier reports and the broader safety questions raised by the Health Department.”

But they are ignoring the central issue – it’s not “a mohel” it’s the dangerous practice that should be decided on (abolished) such spin!

And while Frieden last week urged new parents to consult with their pediatricians about the practice, the rabbinical court tried to direct them back to religious authorities.

When I have a toothache I don’t consult a Rov, I go to a dentist! Ya get it??

“We will work with expectant mothers and fathers in our community to urge them to consult with their rabbis as they approach the blessed event of celebrating a bris for a newborn boy,” the statement said.

Good point. Lack of credentials is exactly why the Agudah DID NOT mention the names of the doctor "experts" who "support" MBP. Zei kenen ah krenk.

Another good point: Herpes is a slow-acting virus, the consequences and symptoms of which may take years to manifest and become apparent.

Tom Friedan, NYC Health Commish will soon find himself between a shmekel and a hard place when the Wm Beis Din comes out with their "Psak" that MBP is OK and should not be tampered with. What to do? Go to the next step and correctly ban MBP because of the health dangers it poses or take the expedient route and PC kowtow to the Chareidim because of their voting power?

Vegas bookies say put your gelt on the latter happening.

The end result: 10-15 years from now, The University of HASC and The University of Special Education will be major educational centers. I can just see Bernie Lander targeting one of these two as a takeover target and bringing it under his Touro Banner, or even better, setting up his own College for Special Education.

When there is a gelt opportunity to be made, you'll find good old Bernie.