Just What Would It Take For You To Believe The Opposite Story?

Originally posted by thelibra
It's funny you mention that, as Zen makes up the majority of my philosophical beliefs at the moment. I saw majority, because there's no way for me
to know if Zen is exactly right,

Apparently not in the way you are interpretting it, as you seem to have missed the "point". But that's off-topic.

Conspiracies are much like religion or philosophy, my friend.

Only as much as science (when properly used) is a conspiracy theory, religion, or philosophy. You can argue with that if you'd like but I'll
go ahead and leave you to your desire for/contentment with total ignorance.

Originally posted by thelibra
Conspiracies are much like religion or philosophy, my friend.

Only as much as science (when properly used) is a conspiracy theory, religion, or philosophy. You can argue with that if you'd like but I'll
go ahead and leave you to your desire for/contentment with total ignorance.

On the contrary. Perhaps I misspoke when I said conspiracies are like religion or philosophy. Please allow me to rephrase.

A conspiracy is like a court case. You may collect evidence, testimonial, witnesses, experts, means, motives, ends, and so forth. Those who care about
what's going on are attending trial, where they watch representation from each side involved present their case, over, and over, and over. The jury
(which in real life would be the actual judicial system if it ever came to trial in the real world) makes their decision, and the verdict is given.
The judge (the UN and history) then pronounces sentencing.

So... after all that, guilty or innocent, someday we can expect an official pronouncement, if it ever goes to trial.

Now let me ask you, have you ever heard of trials where people think the jury arrived at the wrong verdict? Me too. It doesn't matter what the courts
decide, really. The court's decision may sway some people, but overall, people have already determined the guilt or innocence of the government in
their own mind, and the credibility of the court's decision in the observer's mind depends heavily on how closely it matches the opinions of the
observer.

can only do so by name calling, caracter assasination, and long winded accounts of faulty logic which confuses the reader to the point of apathy and
disgust.

In no way can the people who support the official story come up with any PROOF that supports the official story.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS----- From a totally objective perspective the official story does not provide a logical reasoning person with one once or shred
of proof.

In contrast, there are hundreds of holes, inconsintancies, and things that do not add up to the official story.

To those who support the official story----- Your government issues death threats and other threats to Americans who THINK with logic and reason and
question them.

I personally was contacted by the pentagon two days after a posted a negative news story about them here on ats.

I have the phone call on tape so If you want proof I can go dig it up.

Here is a true story.

About 1.5 years before 9-11 I was talking with a stranger on the internet about astral warfare.

We got on to the subject of war and this person told me that in the near future a terrorist act will be perpatrated by governments of the west and
blamed on the muslims in order for isreal to secure the temple mound.

This is what he told me. I am not lying. This is all i can remember. At the time I made a mental note to remember this, but figured the guys was
nuts.

Was he?

Here is another question.

Here on ats there is a search button. Try typing in 9 -11 once.

Why does nothing come up???????

This site is just another example of full spectrum dominance by the NSA.

If I have the right to free speech, why are government ip addresses pinging and attacking my computer?????

If it's still of any interest, I'm among the "conspiracy nuts" who jsut can't believe in the official theory of 911, and frankly, I assure you
that I'd prefer to have in front of me the undeniable proof that the official story was right after all, and that Bush and his bunch were just a
bunch of stupid, incompetent politicians who could'nt do anything right to prevent the attacks.

I guess I'd probably be a happier person in my everyday life, and would feel more secure in this society, without the constant burden to be conscious
of living under some cruel and marvelously pervasive tyranny that keeps people in the line using scare tactics and massive brainwashing. You know this
world looks terribly insane when you look at it from this perspective, and well, this is a pespective that sticks quite too much to reality (although
it's not everything that reality IS, or course!), especially since 911, as a matter of fact.

But the problem is that I KNOW what humans can do to each others. The death camps, the gas chambers, the gulags... all these were made by authorities
who claimed to act for the security and common good of a nation. But they still are humans. It all began with the simple idea of repressing the
criminal thinkers, the "bomb-throwing anarchists", and the "dirty strangers" among us. I also know that in this world, the bad, the corrupted, the
sadistic frequently get in positions of power and they WIN, on a certain level. It's the system that makes the bandits win, it's the system that
gives them power and wealth, and it's that same system that threatens the lives of billions each day by making them believe that they are what they
are not, that the illusions it generates do exist, while they are only lies.

So to me, it will never be a surprise to see members of a government destroy huge buildings, killing thousands of their own countrymens and womens,
and succesfully hiding it to the overall population by creating a complete crap story about some muslim terrorist network having made the attack,
because such thing was already made in the past.

You want to know what it would take for me to accept the "Official" story on 9/11?

Build scale models of the buildings & planes & re-enact the crashes.

I want to see building 7's model fall straight down with just a few puny fires.

Slam a model plane into scale( structurally scale in strength, too in all cases.) model walls of the Pentagon. I really want to see how a fuselage,
being less dense than the wings & engines in my opinion, can crash through the walls & leave circular holes & the wing & engines & landing gear, the
latter being the most substantial pieces of the plane I would expect, & NONE of the wing penetrating? Ohh please! The fuselage of an airline is no
more than a glorified aluminum can.

I have seena few things destroyed in my life & just can not accept a building with the height to width ratio of one of the towers falling into itself
instead of falling over. IF I believed the jet fuel weakened the structure, which I do not, I still could not accept the way it collapsed. I also can
not accept the wide debris cloud of apparently substantial objects thrown so far from the buildings in the "collapse". If it were just to collapse,
what would create such a huge, far flung cloud of large objects being ejected? If each floor fell upon the lower floor & pummeled itself to dust, what
weighed so much as to collapse the next floor? Why didn't any, nope, not ONE of the 47 vertical colums hang tough & just last a second more than the
rest? Wouldn't just ONE column have induced a lean to the collapse? How can asymetrical dammage create symetrical failure? BOY I am fond of that last
question. The designer stated a 707 could hit the building & not cause it to fall. The planes that hit it were a bit bigger, but their speed was lower
than a 707 & the resultant energy was actually VERY close to a fully loaded 707 slamming into the towers, a negligible difference. The fireball at
impact burned a great deal of fuel. There was MOLTEN metal in the basements of the buildings for days after the event. Impossible with a carbon
fuel.You can't melt a tin can by burning jet fuel in it. You sure can't melt a steel beam & have molten POOLS of steel days later. None of that
stuff adds up. When the truth comnes out & it will, I am gonna laff my BUTT off at the idiots who stand around parroting the official story as I have
tried to show them it just can't be.

If you watch 9/11 in plane sight closely, you will see the Second tower hit is first to fall. Notice the top of the building tilt & start to fall off
to one side. Just before it gets to about 15 degree tilt, my estimate, the building starts to collapse from under it & stop its rotation. It then
descends into the pile.

Pretty handy that a Bush was in charge of security at the towers, And at each airport where the planes took off from. Handy that the bomb sniffing
dogs were removed from the buildings 5 days before the crashes.Handy that people were warned not to fly.Handy that there were so many PUT options
prior to 9/11 that were statistically VERY abnormal, but nobody found the time to see who placed them. Awww, it just stinks folks. BUT,I have not been
able to get ANYONE to change their mind in the years I have been at this.Not one. If they believe the official story, they do it because they are
afraid to see the truth because thay won't know what to do when they understand what is happening in this country so they hide in a self induced
stupor. Moral cowards, need to rent a bucket of guts & take the RED pill!

Originally posted by 2PacSade
Thax to all who have given concise statements to my original question.

I'd like to gather more data, but I need specific requirements with
respect to "What would it take to make you change your mind?". A straight to the point statement on any of the debated issues concerning 911.

...

2P,

I think I made it clear that I would need to have all the evidence laid out. And some things explained - like why there was no real forensic
examination before the site of the worst crime in history was disturbed.

Show me ALL the tapes that were confiscated, publicise and reasonably address all the witnesses' statements, make internal memos available, explain
why the Pres just sat there when he heard the news - as if it was expected and not a dire emergency of epic proportion.

Explain, in any reasonable terms, why there was such resistance to a "9/11 Commission."

Explain why we were told - by quite a number of official - that there was "no way we could have expected an attack using a plane!" when we were
practising for exactly that scenario ON THAT DAY.

Give a detailed description of the process - who was involved, when and where they were - of the writing of the "Patriot" Act. (I'm placing money
on its having been written long before the planes hit...)

There is more, for sure, but I haven't the energy to list everything. What I have given above, if it came to be and there were no chinks in the
logic or evidence... Just that alone would back me off from my 99.999999998% probability assesment that:

9/11 was not initiated by ObL;
9/11 was aided and abetted by Bush&Co;
9/11 was organized by people in connection with Mossad, the CIA, the Saudis and other arms of power in the world.;
We are headed into a Fascist, 1984 world.

1. I would have to disregard all the witnesses to the impacts of the jets at the WTC and Pentagon.

2. I would have to disregard the pieces of said jets found at each crash site (including Flight 93)

3. I would have to disregard the bodies of the passengers found at the Pentagon.

4. I would have to disregard the airline personnel involved that day.

5. I would have to disregard the phone calls made from airphones that day

6. I would have to disregard the COMPLETE statements made by NY emergency personnel that day (not the partial quotes used by so many).

7. I would have to believe that the US military (of which I am a proud member) would cooperate in something like this.

8. I would have to believe that thousands of workers in the WTC wouldnt notice the walls being torn apart and holes drilled for demolition
charges.

9. I would have to believe that the "bad guys" were able to find perfect voice imitations to make the airphone calls that day, including those
passengers that didnt know they were going to be on Flight 93 until they checked in at the airport, within the space of an hour and a half.

10. I would have to believe a arrogant human being who would state, I built something that could withstand a passenger jet hitting it. Although I
would guess that he is a direct descendant of the gentleman that said he designed the Titanic to be unsinkable.

11. I would have to believe that THOUSANDS of people could be involved in this and NO ONE would talk.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
For me to believe the conspiracy viewpoint......

1. I would have to disregard all the witnesses to the impacts of the jets at the WTC and Pentagon.

2. I would have to disregard the pieces of said jets found at each crash site (including Flight 93)

3. I would have to disregard the bodies of the passengers found at the Pentagon.

4. I would have to disregard the airline personnel involved that day.

5. I would have to disregard the phone calls made from airphones that day

6. I would have to disregard the COMPLETE statements made by NY emergency personnel that day (not the partial quotes used by so many).

7. I would have to believe that the US military (of which I am a proud member) would cooperate in something like this.

8. I would have to believe that thousands of workers in the WTC wouldnt notice the walls being torn apart and holes drilled for demolition
charges.

9. I would have to believe that the "bad guys" were able to find perfect voice imitations to make the airphone calls that day, including those
passengers that didnt know they were going to be on Flight 93 until they checked in at the airport, within the space of an hour and a half.

10. I would have to believe a arrogant human being who would state, I built something that could withstand a passenger jet hitting it. Although I
would guess that he is a direct descendant of the gentleman that said he designed the Titanic to be unsinkable.

11. I would have to believe that THOUSANDS of people could be involved in this and NO ONE would talk.

Thanx SF46- I think you make some real valid points. . . You are right! Yes, it would be a very complex plan, much more complex than the official
story I would have to agree 100%. . . You could be right. . . Maybe it would take thousands of people to pull it off. . .

BUT- The official story is also comprised of a very complex set of explanations. . . Some of which are just as suspect. . . That being said. How come
19 guys could pull off the official version when it would take thousands in your eyes to perform the contrary? I don't see why there would be such a
disparity between the two? Thanx again!

BUT- The official story is also comprised of a very complex set of explanations. . . Some of which are just as suspect. . . That being said. How come
19 guys could pull off the official version when it would take thousands in your eyes to perform the contrary? I don't see why there would be such a
disparity between the two? Thanx again!

No, actually the official story isnt really all that complex.

How come 19 guys were able to pull this off?

That is an easy one. The 19 guys were not worried about faking phone calls, faking plane wreckage, faking witnesses, wiring buildings to blow up
etc......All they were concerned with, was hijacking four jets and crashing them into buildings. Much simpler than the vast conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
1. I would have to disregard all the witnesses to the impacts of the jets at the WTC and Pentagon.

No, you would not... Just because a 757 may have hit the Pentagon does not preclude any of the other alternative theories.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
2. I would have to disregard the pieces of said jets found at each crash site (including Flight 93)

Why? Only the "no planes theory", which has VERY FEW belivers, subscribe to this.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
3. I would have to disregard the bodies of the passengers found at the Pentagon.

There has been ZERO evidence released to the public to verify this. All you have is the WORD of an investigator.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
4. I would have to disregard the airline personnel involved that day.

Why? There is CONCRETE evidence that show fake "blips" were inserted onto radar screens for military exercises. Maybe they had NOTHING to do with
it and were just trying to do their job in a very confused situation.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
5. I would have to disregard the phone calls made from airphones that day

Again, consider that the source of this 'evidence' is the same as the "pentagon bodies".

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
6. I would have to disregard the COMPLETE statements made by NY emergency personnel that day (not the partial quotes used by so many).

Even many of the COMPLETE statements talk about secondary explosions. You are attempting to discredit firefighter who claims to have seen and been
blown back by these explosions?

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
7. I would have to believe that the US military (of which I am a proud member) would cooperate in something like this.

They have done it before... Thank you for servein and I am sorry you have to serve in futile and unnecessary conflicts under the guise of WAR ON
TERROR, BUT, Now I see why you are so brainwashed.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
8. I would have to believe that thousands of workers in the WTC wouldnt notice the walls being torn apart and holes drilled for demolition
charges.

The towers were 1/3 empty and after silverstein took over offices were shuffleed between vacant floors allowing ANYTHIGN to happen in the vacant
floors and allowing for ANY floor to become vacant if necessary.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
9. I would have to believe that the "bad guys" were able to find perfect voice imitations to make the airphone calls that day, including those
passengers that didnt know they were going to be on Flight 93 until they checked in at the airport, within the space of an hour and a half.

this assertion is simply ridiculous.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
10. I would have to believe a arrogant human being who would state, I built something that could withstand a passenger jet hitting it. Although I
would guess that he is a direct descendant of the gentleman that said he designed the Titanic to be unsinkable.

Apples and oranges... withstand an impact WITH DAMAGE is far different that UNSINKABLE. LEave the engineering to the engineers.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
11. I would have to believe that THOUSANDS of people could be involved in this and NO ONE would talk.

THOUSANDS is a number YOU made up... in reality onlt a coupkle hundred would be necessary.

Thanx for this post & link Slap Nuts. . . This is big stuff for all these individuals to go on record like this. Informed & involved individuals that
are fully aware of what could happen to their "quality of life". . . I suppose they're willing to risk it all for a book deal / talk show circuit,
etc.?

You are military? What about all of these guys? Please impeach their statements ONE BY ONE

Yes I am military. For brevity, Im not going to post (once again) all the sites that show the airliner wreckage from that day.

Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret)

One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army’s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold
War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane
that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, ‘The plane does not fit in that hole’.

Do not know what pics he looked at, but the hole in the Pentagon was more than wide enough for a 757 fuselage, and impact damage to the facade was
close to the height of the tail, and wingspan.....

Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret)

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human
beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft.

Produced to whom? Boeing and the respective airlines are satisfied that the wreckage found DID belong to their airplanes. BTW they werent
"wide-body"...

Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army (ret)

Regarding the impact at the Pentagon on 9/11/2001 "When you look at the whole thing, especially the crash site void of airplane parts

Thats funny....because the lawn of the Pentagon was littered with pieces of the jet. All that website does, is give a list of people who have either
ignored facts or read too many quarter truths on conspiracy sites.

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