If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

These are indeed actual minutes of a heated IRC debate. I will now explain what drove me to this frustration.

so you lied here... lieing is a real sign of a very un-adult person. I nearly believed you, because you did write a long post without insulting massively somebody, and I did not know what happend, because I am not involved. But lieing is a big sign of not beeing adult.

Originally Posted by soreau

Every time, he would ask for patches.

you cant force people do work, they dont want to do, the reasons why they dont do it, is not your business, maybe its because they dont like you, maybe its because you did not communicate with him before.

But if he says (i dont do it, send me patches) you have to accapt that. In a social group you dont get a leader status just because you send in more patches than somebody else, and then can order others to the work you want.

you could be pissed, if you would have send him your minor changes as a patch, and he would then not look over it in a reasonalbe time and would not accept it without giving the reason of it, but you did like you said not send him patches, because you thinked he should do the work, because he did other work. thats so wrong, so self-centered, you act like a alpha-male trying to dominate other peoples... developers are most of the time very self-centered, you cant force them at least without giving them much money in doing stuff you want.

Originally Posted by soreau

My special interest is in the code. I don't really care too much about the site because it's something that anyone can fix. I value my personal time more than this

so you just wrote that you think your time is worth more than the time of the other guy. thats again a class-thinking, you are better than him. even if you would send 1000 more patches than him, thats not true.

if he invests maybe 1hour after work, and you have 10hours a day time, both is spend in kind of honorary apointment. you cant force him to work 1.5hours a day because you want something done. Make it yourself or live with how he manages it.

Originally Posted by soreau

Finally, the same topic came up again in the channel about a user having trouble and I got upset. I said some things that were strongly harsh. In my opinion, it would not have come to this level if he would have just fixed it in the first place like I asked him to. It always takes two to tango, of course..

you are not even able to apolagize, you try to give the one you insulted the blame for them giving you reasons for insulting them. thats like saying its ok to stalk girls if they put on short skirts. Well its not!

Originally Posted by soreau

These days, I also have programming experience to get what I want done. I always try to start nicely but after repeating myself for the 5th and 6th time and we're still broken, this pisses me off.

there is git there is everything, you can work alone, if somebody else does something not fast enough just do it yourself. there is nobody to blame but yourself.

Like again just create your own branch and work there, if some gets integrated in master or main good if not also good, if your branches diff gets bigger and bigger over time, and the differences are important enough, talk about it and if nobody wants to integrate it, make a fork.

But dont insult anybody because of it. there are 2 different rules out there, there is the power of good code and many code... if you really have that, your fork will have success and the original thread will die.

But there is a second rule, there is the rule of social aspects, people that are respectful get respect back, people that dont, dont.

Originally Posted by soreau

They both regularly post IRC scrollback out-of-context that portrays others in a negative light. The majority of the time, I am the target of this behavior.

So they dont insult everybody all the time, and posting IRC stuff about everybody all the time, just only from you. So maybe it has something to do with you?

Originally Posted by soreau

like politicians drunk with power

next insult

Originally Posted by soreau

and it's serves no other purpose than to make me look bad

maybe because they get bad press like this post, and they wanna defend themself, that they are not the primary guilty in this conflict.

its ok for you to just defend yourself and make new insults but if they defend themself, you cant see why they do it?

Originally Posted by soreau

One important question here is, “Is Darxus a Wayland developer?”.

its no question, like you posted he submited some stuff, so he is a developer he submited maybe less than you maybe he is in the irc channel mainly because people like him or something else, it does not matter at all.

Originally Posted by soreau

I will let the commits speak for themselves. So far as Daniel Stone goes, I am surprised he works for a company called 'Collabora', I would like everyone to please take a moment to view the current Collabora introductory statements on their main page http://www.collabora.com/ and see if this matches the behavior of Daniel Stone's position here.

be concret what do you even mean here.

Originally Posted by soreau

This guy is bad news, just like Daniel Stone. You can find plenty of useful work from these two in particular, but over the course of the past year, I've uncovered their true underlying attitudes. They are very rotten and despicable.

again strong insults, and you really wonder why they are, what did you say, "enjoying the ban."

Originally Posted by soreau

This is a bunch of nonsense over nothing. This 'mud slinging' is completely wasted effort. I am not participating in this, I am only defending myself since I am being openly attacked.

you do not defend yourself, you in this same post again insulted them. several times.

Originally Posted by soreau

why not pick up the source code and find all the bugs in it and report those. This would be more useful to me.

is it most important what is most useful for you? you are very very self centric. egoistic.

In any event, I am glad that you are having fun at my expense. Perhaps this is the purpose you've found for me in your project.

I am pretty shure that they dont enjoy the hole conversations, if they would, they would not have banned you, because if they enjoy your behavier and how they can harm you, they would have kept you in their project.

Originally Posted by daniels

And what have you done, apart from posting on forums?

Sorry I wanted to write it the first in this post, I am very thankful, ignore the other troll, its a bit of a sickness these days, peple have first no respect for the work of others, and they are fanboys. its something like other fanatic opinions religion or fashism... fanboyism

And its even stupid, because your work with X was the best somebody did for free, if it were sooo bad, somebody else would easily commited something better, in a opensource world there are other rules... and this big chunks of codes several people have to work on the same stuff on the same goals. thats not so easy like one lead developer in a company says we make it this way and all run in this direction.
It kind of works a bit on the kernel that way. but also only because many companies help out with manpower... in x never so many companies paid people to work on it.
So with the limited sources you had it was good work, and without you and others we would have the same the xserver this years but in a even worse state. maybe now like it was 5 years ago. or something like that. that would not help anybody.

To say you can do it better but dont did even write on patch to it, is really really a bad thing, and because you never looked at the code you cant even imagine how good his work was or not.

just because there were better results from multi-billion-dollar companies out there, doesnt mean that the work from the x-server guys was just bad work or something.

and it even negates or dont go into what they have done with wayland now... he and others did that too, so he can produce excelent pices of code, so he proved if not with the old xserver (what I never would say) but shure with wayland that he can code.

I generally agree with blackiwid's points. Also, you said that you have trouble expressing yourself and that you are much better at expressing yourself through code. And then you ask Darxus to change something on the website. He replies that you did not express yourself too well and suggests that you should express yourself through code. And that makes you angry?..

I explained to Darxus initially about the problems and he said he'd fix them but never did. I reminded him again but this time he suggested that I should create a patch, submit it to the mailing list and he would review it. For a minor change, I do not feel this is necessary, It's wasted time and bandwidth.

That is substantially misleading. This was our last conversation on the subject:

--- Day changed Wed Mar 20 2013
18:26 < Darxus> soreau: As always, if you'll just tell me exactly what you want changed, I'm happy to change it. Copying and pasting plain text into an email and then editing it to what you would like would probably be great.
18:27 < soreau> I told you, get rid of the +s crap for weston-launch and add the runtime stuff for mplayer
18:27 < soreau> and put mpv on there too, 4 lines http://www.chaosreigns.com/wiki/Wayl...V_instructions
18:29 < Darxus> soreau: I can do the +s thing, and the mpv thing. The last time we discussed this I tried to get details on exactly you want changed about mplayer because I've never tried it and would rather not guess.
18:30 < soreau> I gave you the link http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ry/006968.html
18:30 < soreau> last time
18:31 < soreau> been telling you little things about the website for months, you just don't have an interest in maintaining it and I can't understand that
18:32 < soreau> every time you act like you can't read or you don't know what I'm talking about, or you want me to write a patch.. for a two second change on a website
18:32 < soreau> I mean wtf
18:33 < Darxus> --- Log opened Fri Feb 22 03:20:10 2013
18:33 < Darxus> 11:47 < soreau> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ry/006968.html
18:33 < Darxus> 11:50 < Darxus> soreau: That is distinctly different from telling me what you would like the contents of http://wayland.freedesktop.org/extras.html to be. You could copy and paste the current text of the page into an email, edit it to what you want it to be, then email it to me. Do you just want me to add a note that mplayer needs to be run as "./mplayer -vo gl $filename"? I don't know the details of the problem, so I'm hesitant to modify the page based on my guesses.
18:33 < Darxus> And no answer.
18:33 < soreau> See now look!
18:33 < soreau> Instead of making the change you're trying to start shit
18:34 < soreau> JUST FIX IT ALREADY
18:34 < Darxus> I'm asking you the same yes or no question I asked you before. Why can't you just answer me? Because you'd rather continue to complain?
18:34 < soreau> Forget you man and forget your bullshit
18:34 < soreau> I don't have time to hold your hand while you kick scream and cry
18:37 < Darxus> soreau: You realize this kind of behavior is exactly why I have little motivation to cooperate with you, right? I honestly have no idea why you can't just answer the yes or no qestion. I'm not trying to "start shit". I'm trying to do exactly what you want me to do, I'd just like confirmation that my guess is correct first.
18:38 -!- mode/#wayland [+o airlied] by ChanServ
18:41 < soreau> If you cannot read plain english, then I'm sorry but I cannot help you
18:44 < soreau> Your desire should be to help others, not dote on a needless response, that was clearly implied by the initial query
18:45 -!- mode/#wayland [+q soreau!*@*] by airlied
18:45 <@airlied> come back in a few hours dude, seriously
18:56 < jpetersen> Darxus, thanks for maintaining the website
18:59 < daniels> indeed

Also, lets not forget that soreau was not banned due to his lack of social grace alone. The final straw was his refusal to use an existing mechanism to retain protocol compatibility when making his needed protocol changes, insisting on doing it in a way that would break things, without providing a reason: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ch/008162.html

I am sorry I want not to insult him or fuel his anger, or something, I just think he is a psychopath or at least he is in danger to become one.

Thats the opposite if you read in a job posting something like:

- result oriented

he is a principal he would rather kill his mother than answer her a question that he would think is not important.

pfff

And if you want to lead, at least lead, its like I am the boss because I am a alpha male, but all the resposability goes to you. I give the commands if something goes wrong because I gave wrong or to vague commands its your fault.

Ok I can think of some bosses in a company that act like that, we would call that in germany "kolerisch". If you see somebody like that normaly you take him not for full, you help him out 1-2 times and it gets not better either you accept it because you get money from him, or you dont work with him ever again. At least thats what should be the reaction.

Its a bit like a amok-run. it can be sometimes be a bit productive in the short perspective, but if that happens to often, it will become destructive.

so you lied here... lieing is a real sign of a very un-adult person. I nearly believed you, because you did write a long post without insulting massively somebody, and I did not know what happend, because I am not involved. But lieing is a big sign of not beeing adult.

First, please learn how to spell 'liar'. If you're going to use the shitty english language, at least have the decency to spell correctly. It's 2013, we have google. Use it. Now, you are wrong. I am not a deliberate liar. I'm not perfect and I make mistakes. But please don't sit here and openly call me a liar outright when this is in fact the lie. I'm not going to sit here and call you a liar, I'm just asking that you please stop.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

you cant force people do work, they dont want to do, the reasons why they dont do it, is not your business, maybe its because they dont like you, maybe its because you did not communicate with him before.

Yes, this is a valid point. I cannot force people to do work that they do not want to do. I thought there was an understood agreement, turns out there wasn't, so I found a way to fix the problem with a more complete solution.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

But if he says

.. she said bullshit. I don't have time for this. Please find a more useful way to invest your time.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

(i dont do it, send me patches) you have to accapt that.

It's spelled 'accept'. No, on the contrary, I do not have to accept any of his ignorant nonsense.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

In a social group you dont get a leader status just because you send in more patches than somebody else, and then can order others to the work you want.

You're absolutely right. You get respect in a social group as leader when:
1) You've exhibited your skills for the position
2) You've established that you have the experience
3) You have the time and dedication
4) You gain a small group of 'followers' that believe in your work and ideas.
4) Optionally, take a stand and fork the project if you feel that your group is not being led in the right direction.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

you could be pissed, if you would have send him your minor changes as a patch, and he would then not look over it in a reasonalbe time and would not accept it without giving the reason of it, but you did like you said not send him patches, because you thinked he should do the work, because he did other work. thats so wrong, so self-centered, you act like a alpha-male trying to dominate other peoples... developers are most of the time very self-centered, you cant force them at least without giving them much money in doing stuff you want.

'reasonable', and 'thinked' should be 'thought'. Say what you will, but you're only wasting everyone's time here including your own.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

so you just wrote that you think your time is worth more than the time of the other guy.

Where? I never said any such thing.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

thats again a class-thinking, you are better than him.

I never said this so you are now building a point on false pretenses.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

even if you would send 1000 more patches than him, thats not true.

I never said this in the first place, you are putting words in my mouth without quotes.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

if he invests maybe 1hour after work, and you have 10hours a day time, both is spend in kind of honorary apointment. you cant force him to work 1.5hours a day because you want something done. Make it yourself or live with how he manages it.

It's spelled 'appointment' by the way. Your entire point here is invalid and based on an implicit lie. You are running into an unfounded tangent here.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

you are not even able to apolagize,

And you can't even take the time out to spell 'apologize' correctly.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

you try to give the one you insulted the blame for them giving you reasons for insulting them. thats like saying its ok to stalk girls if they put on short skirts. Well its not!

This is completely irrational logic. Your points are not based on anything actual. In addition, it is clear that you have not or are not aware of, the big picture of reality.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

there is git there is everything, you can work alone, if somebody else does something not fast enough just do it yourself. there is nobody to blame but yourself.

Look, I appreciate your concern, but you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and just making yourself look bad. I'm responding because I feel you or any other concerned member deserves a more complete explanation.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

Like again just create your own branch and work there, if some gets integrated in master or main good if not also good, if your branches diff gets bigger and bigger over time, and the differences are important enough, talk about it and if nobody wants to integrate it, make a fork.

This actually doesn't have a whole lot to do with source code and FOSS projects believe it or not. I just happen to have the knowledge and experience relative to the situation at hand to help me demonstrate my many points.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

But dont insult anybody because of it. there are 2 different rules out there, there is the power of good code and many code... if you really have that, your fork will have success and the original thread will die.

But there is a second rule, there is the rule of social aspects, people that are respectful get respect back, people that dont, dont.

So they dont insult everybody all the time, and posting IRC stuff about everybody all the time, just only from you. So maybe it has something to do with you?

I would like to think you have good intent, merit and intelligence but sadly, it is clear that you do not. Please spare yourself and everyone else involved here.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

next insult

maybe because they get bad press like this post, and they wanna defend themself, that they are not the primary guilty in this conflict.

its ok for you to just defend yourself and make new insults but if they defend themself, you cant see why they do it?

its no question, like you posted he submited some stuff, so he is a developer he submited maybe less than you maybe he is in the irc channel mainly because people like him or something else, it does not matter at all.

It's 'submitted'. You can learn how to be a more powerful writer, and I can teach you.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

be concret what do you even mean here.

'Concrete'.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

again strong insults, and you really wonder why they are, what did you say, "enjoying the ban."

you do not defend yourself, you in this same post again insulted them. several times.

is it most important what is most useful for you? you are very very self centric. egoistic.

I am pretty shure that they dont enjoy the hole conversations, if they would, they would not have banned you, because if they enjoy your behavier and how they can harm you, they would have kept you in their project.

They are spelled 'sure' and 'behavior' in American English.

Originally Posted by blackiwid

Sorry I wanted to write it the first in this post, I am very thankful, ignore the other troll, its a bit of a sickness these days, peple have first no respect for the work of others, and they are fanboys. its something like other fanatic opinions religion or fashism... fanboyism

And its even stupid, because your work with X was the best somebody did for free, if it were sooo bad, somebody else would easily commited something better, in a opensource world there are other rules... and this big chunks of codes several people have to work on the same stuff on the same goals. thats not so easy like one lead developer in a company says we make it this way and all run in this direction.
It kind of works a bit on the kernel that way. but also only because many companies help out with manpower... in x never so many companies paid people to work on it.
So with the limited sources you had it was good work, and without you and others we would have the same the xserver this years but in a even worse state. maybe now like it was 5 years ago. or something like that. that would not help anybody.

To say you can do it better but dont did even write on patch to it, is really really a bad thing, and because you never looked at the code you cant even imagine how good his work was or not.

just because there were better results from multi-billion-dollar companies out there, doesnt mean that the work from the x-server guys was just bad work or something.

and it even negates or dont go into what they have done with wayland now... he and others did that too, so he can produce excelent pices of code, so he proved if not with the old xserver (what I never would say) but shure with wayland that he can code.

'fascism', 'committed', 'excellent' and 'sure'. I wont sit here and count all the places you misspelled but if you're going to take time to fan the flames, please do it powerfully enough by making an effort to take the time out to spell all of the words you're using correctly.

You fail to realize this is far bigger than you are able fathom. This isn't about the things you're talking about here. I'm nice by default but I can be a real asshole if you piss me off. This is true for just about any normal person. Don't mess with that which they are passionate. You might get a negative result.

My recommendation to anyone reading this is, don't piss me off. Don't come to me and and deliberately prance around as a 'fucking idiot' because this incites rage in me. And by this, I mean, have-commit-access-to-a-community-resource-as-an-active-community-member-but-never-take-the-time-to-include-minor-community-suggetions. If you think for a second that I have time in my life here to play your games, you're wrong. This has nothing to do with code and X and wayland and forking and all this nonsense. This is about something that is created by a world-wide community collectively, regardless if a few idiots must be trampled in the process. It is noteworthy that through this, I now have a very responsive website maintainer who is bright and doesn't care to know about any of this frivolous drama. The site is barely up and it's already 10 times better than the official wayland site, which is poorly maintained and is not very intuitive. Instead of making all the patches that might otherwise be scrutinized, I'm going to attempt to set a complete model example of a site as I see fit.

I deal with some of the smartest people in the world. When I am an idiot, I get trampled and I deserve it. When I am wrong, I am often times strongly corrected. This is well accepted and helps me to learn and grow as a person. I am quick to admit when I'm wrong. However, I do not have time for people who sit there and imply that they are interested in helping a project that I am personally passionate about, when they are actually not in fact interested in helping out. I am strongly passionate about what I do and I'm not going to sit around playing someone's malicious mind games. If someone gets hurt by one of my comments half way across the world from an IRC post, then they need to grow up. If they can't take the pressure, then get out of the kitchen. I'm trying to make something and can't have these things under my feet trying to trip me while I'm working on something here.

Just stop already. Stop trying to overshadow my positive influences. I didn't get to the point where I am today by fighting with every single person. This is a relatively isolated incident. Darxus is a constant problem for everyone, the entire community. Look into his patches and see for yourself if you think he possesses the skills as a 'wayland developer' as Daniel seems to have labeled him, for the purposes of their frivolous arguments.

Now to pull the nose up back toward the sky. On a positive note, the other developers and community have been very nice and helpful to me. I will list some people that I have observed, often and regularly taking the time to help me and others. These are people that have been consistently helpful to the project and others and I have not noticed engaging in deliberate malicious activity against others.

This is a list (severely incomplete) of people that are consistently helpful to the community including myself, and regularly encourage intellectual and innovative thinking. This is a very very small list compared to the massive support collectively provided by the good community members invloved here. I am leaving out.. ..so many names. (Sorry if your name was not listed here, the list is fairly random since there are so many helpful people surrounding this project). The important point to realize here, is that these people are still working on wayland as regularly scheduled. They have no need to get involved in this senselessness and they don't have time for it, just like I don't.