Advocating for the right of consenting adults to share and enjoy love, sex, residence, and marriage without limits on the gender, number, or relation of participants. Full marriage equality is a basic human right.

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Thursday, February 28, 2013

John Shore gave poly-friendly response to a letter he got. One of the places you can find it is huffingtonpost.com. Click through his links to his other writings. They are worth a read, especially if you identify as Christian or otherwise deal with people who are anti-equality who do identify as Christian. As I've said before, you can find allies (and people who want equality but are denied) in just about every religion, in Atheist circles... everywhere. And, unfortunately, you can find prejudice just about everywhere, too, although obviously Atheists will not invoke some religion-based dictate in opposition to equality.

As always, comments are welcome at this blog, and you can comment anonymously if you'd like, or identify yourself or link (no spam, please) to blog, profile, etc.

Per reader request, I have removed word verification, which some people find annoying.

Since I have removed word verification, I will now need to prevent spam by requiring that comments be approved before they appear. this means your comment may not appear for several hours. Feedback is welcome, including disagreement. I only delete/reject/mark as spam: spam, vulgar or hateful attacks, repeated spouting of bigotry from the same person that does not add to the discussion, and the like. I will not reject comments based on disagreement, but if you don't think consenting adults should be free to love each other, then I do not consent to have you repeatedly spout hate on my blog without adding anything to the discourse.

If you want to write to me privately, then either contact me on Facebook, email me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com, or tell me in your comment that you do NOT want it published. Otherwise, anything you write here is fair game to be used in a subsequent entry.

An Antioch woman and her 23-year-old son allegedly had an openly
sexual relationship that produced a child and another pregnancy and have
been charged with incest under a law that could put them in state
prison for up to three years.

Three years in prison for having consensual sex with another adult?

Robert Kochly,
assistant chief district attorney in Contra Costa County, said Saturday
the woman, who is 43, and her son not only haven't denied their alleged
relationship, but are defiant about it.

"It is a strange case.
This mother and son have taken up as a married couple and she had
siblings of his living in the home with her," Kochly said.

The pregnant woman, being held in lieu of $50,000 bail at the West County Justice Center in Richmond, is scheduled to appear in court this week.

Yes, jail a pregnant 43-year-old for the "crime" of having sex. Makes sense, right?

More and more people are thinking it through and realizing that full marriage equality makes sense, and that the response to bigots who try to scare people about slippery slopes when it comes to the same-gender freedom to marry should be "What's wrong with letting consenting adults have their right to marry?"

Note that one of them brings up legal sanctions against adultery. I'm not aware of any place in the US where there remain any enforceable criminal laws against adultery, perhaps defined in some ridiculous laws as having sex with someone other than your lawfully wedded spouse (which criminalizes threesomes, polyamory, open marriages, etc.) Nor is adultery considered by the court in divorce proceedings in states that have no-fault divorce. There are some states that still allow people to sue for "alienation of affection," but that is rare. Ultimately, cheating should not be a matter for the courts anyway. But whether or not something is cheating is up to the agreements made by the adults involved. For a strictly monogamous couple, cheating might include one of them sexting someone else. For people in an open marriage, it might be one spouse not informing the other of a sexual encounter had with another person. For a triad in polyfidelity, it might be one of them secretly meeting with a fourth person. None of this should be something for law enforcement to deal with.

And, as a strong believer in the right of same-sex couples to marry, it came to me that willing adults who enter into plural marriage should have the same rights.

Having covered polygamy in Utah for more than two decades, I’m acutely aware of the abuse that can and has occurred in polygamous enclaves.

Of course, that abuse is not isolated to polygamous communities, nor is it caused by polygamy. Removing laws and stigmas against consensual adult relationships will make it easier to prosecute abusers, because witnesses and victims will be more willing to work with law enforcement.

My support for gay marriage hinges on these factors: a mature, loving couple should have the same rights and protections as straight couples and to have governments recognize their unions; and that each individual enters into the relationship without financial or ecclesiastical pressure.

Thank you!

Who am I to oppose the choices of two women who join in matrimony, or two or more who choose to enter what now is called a "spiritual" marriage with one man?

This world has seen uncountable changes in customs and mores, and it surely will see more as time goes by. Let adults be adults, committed and accountable.

I have friends who ask if their gay marriage has ever affected my straight one. And I ask them if mine has affected theirs. The answer is always no.

The staff of more news organizations need to speak up in favor of the rights of an adult to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults. Yes, that includes polyamory and polygamy as well as monogamy and other forms.

oh my.. i have a enormous amount of sympathy.. i know someone in the same boat, only he's the older and shes younger. Problem is the same. Everyone thinks he's a screw up because he hasn't had a girlfriend for so long and how hes getting older... lol well it would appear that way from the outside. Poor guy has been tormented for years about "he's gonna die a virgin" and "he must be pathetic in bed" etc etc.. nothing could be more incorrect. They've been together for YEARS, and she's told me their life behind closed doors is amazing, and when they are together they are truly an amazing couple. I know because I've seen it. Yet everyone around them are growing up and growing old, are married, some beat each other, some are horrible to their children, some are just outright POS's, while this couple is a beautiful one-yet pretty much illegal everywhere and is extremely taboo in our society. Its horrible that they are ridiculed and made fun of, but sadly at the moment thats how it is. We have to get this straightened out! (lol sheesh and gays thought they had it bad...;D)

Prejudiced discrimination is a problem and is hurtful whether it is directed at an interracial couple, a gay couple, or a polyamorous triad, or a consanguinamorous relationship. Consenting adults shouldn't have to hide their love. The people Anonymous described could involve other people as "beards" (and some people have done that very thing,) but would that be fair to anyone? No, not unless the beards were informed and agreeable, perhaps having some need of theirs met by the arrangement.

I was so relieved that our parents did not try to force my brother and I apart when they learned we were together. He and I have always been close, and after we became intimate I realized that I could not imagine life without him by my side. I cannot imagine what it must be like for those people who want to be in a relationship with a family member but are unable to do so for one reason or another. I strongly agree with what you have said, especially the last paragraph. My wish would be for everyone to be with the one they love, whomever it may be, so they can all have happy lives together.

This does seem to be the number one reason many people are against brother - sister relationships. My brother and I had many discussions and did a lot of research before deciding to have a child together. Once I was pregnant I made sure to see my doctor regularly to make sure everything was ok. Our daughter is fine - happy and healthy. I now know we did the right thing, and we do plan on having more children. My point is that the belief that every incest child will have something wrong with him or her is just wrong, and couples like us should make the decision to have children or not with honest facts, not mistaken beliefs.

We're always happy to get comments like these. People need to see the truth about these relationships. They do exist, and the biggest problem with them is the prejudice of others. There's no reason to criminalize this love or deny these lovers the freedom to marry.

Polyamory is much more than having multiple sex partners. Yes, the sex part is important, but not nearly as important as the emotional aspect. To an outsider, polyamory is often seen as an expedient to justifying having multiple sex partners, in the same way they consider bi-sexuality to be. Of course, as those who are bi-sexual can tell you, this isn’t an expedient, it truly a way of being. Being polyamorous is what we feel, it defines how we are attracted romantically, sexually and emotionally to others.

More people should learn that this is so.

I was brought up to believe in traditional gender roles and traditional marriage, but even in my teens and early twenties I felt that there was something wrong with me because I often found that I was in love with more than one woman at the same time. I’m not talking lust here, we all have that, but love. I truly loved two women at the same time. Loved them deeply. It was no more sexual than any other experience of being in love.

I found myself in this situation several times. Before I was married, I resolved this by deciding not to get involved with either woman, because I didn’t feel right choosing one over the other. After I was married, my solution was to ignore what I was feeling for the woman who I wasn’t married to, to the point of breaking off all communication so that I didn’t let my emotions get out of had for fear of breaking my vows or ruining my marriage.

Not having full marriage equality means that some people try to fit into the little box when they aren’t suited to it. And then they can’t do it anymore, coming out as gay or poly or whatever. More people get hurt and often the marriage ends. Wouldn’t it be better to allow people to marry the person or persons they love in the first place?

Even within the community of atheists and freethinkers I’ve been hesitant to come out as ploy for fear of rejection, but I have decided that, as with my atheism, I must be who I am and let people know that. I’ve hidden who I am for far too long and I refuse to do it any longer.

Why is there so much bigotry?

So, you can now add poly to your definition of queer. We are here and we face as much social discrimination as those in the GLBT community, except that we are still where they were 30 years or more ago.

I’m willing to wade in and take on the fight. I’m hoping those of you out there reading this will learn more about polyamory and support us.

Saturday, February 23, 2013

How likely is it that brother-sister incest will produce a healthy child?

Taking the question exactly as it is written, a very small percentage of sexual encounters result in a live birth. Only sexual encounters that result in a healthy sperm entering a healthy egg and fertilizing it, followed by successful implantation in the uterus, followed by gestation until viability will produce a healthy child. (This is leaving aside reproductive technologies, donors, and surrogates.)

But I suspect that the question the person was really asking is that if a brother and sister have a pregnancy that comes to term and is successfully delivered, what are the chances of the child being healthy?

Most likely, with any given brother and sister, the child will be healthy. With any birth, there is a chance of the child having a birth defect or genetic problem. All it takes is for a genetic problem of one or both parents being passed along, or a the embryo developing one on her own. If two people have the same genetic problem, as siblings may, there is an increase in the chance that their child will have the same problem in comparison to the general population. However, that increase in chance will still mean that the overall chance is a minority chance.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can also pass along health problems.

We do not deny people their freedom to marry or their sexual or reproductive rights based on their lack of ability to birth healthy children or lack of intention to birth children. We do not make criminals out of them based on those things, either.

There are healthy, intelligent, attractive people whose birth parents are genetic siblings. We all know some, whether we know their biological parentage or not, and whether they know their true biological parentage or not.

Thursday, February 21, 2013

The Obama administration is quietly considering urging the Supreme Court to overturn California's ban on gay marriage, a step that would mark a political victory for advocates of same-sex unions and a deepening commitment by President Barack Obama to rights for gay couples.

More and more US states are adopting the limited same-gender freedom to marry. Many others have domestic partnerships or civil unions. In the two neighboring countries, Canada has had the limited same-gender freedom to marry and Mexico is moving towards it nationwide. The US, as a country, is playing catch-up. How embarrassing.

I urge President Obama and the Court to boldly, strongly put the US in a leadership role and support protections based on sexual orientation and relationship rights and full marriage equality for all, rather than a piecemeal approach of this freedom to marry or that form of civil union. Equality just for some, or in some aspects but not others, or in this state but not that state, is not equality. The Constitutional principles of equal protection, freedom of association, freedom of religion, and the right to privacy, along with basic fairness, rational reflection, and compassion, necessitate that the US government ensure the rights of all adults.

Supporting relationship rights, including full marriage equality for all, will eliminate the impractical, unjust, and confusing inequalities in the law pertaining not only to some same-gender relationships, but in all adult relationships, including those that are polyamorous or consanguineous. Some of those inequalities include:

1. Utah’s criminalization of polyamory while other states allow polyamory but do not protect polyamorists and deny the polygamous and polyamorous freedom to marry.

2. Some states allowing first cousins to marry monogamously without restriction, other states allowing them to marry with restrictions, some states banning this freedom to marry, and even a couple of states criminalizing sex between first cousins.

3. Some states allowing any adults who are closer relatives their sexual
rights with each other while other states ban those rights.

Nobody should fear being arrested and imprisoned for having a consensual relationship with other adults.

Please, Mr. President, urge the Court and the American people to support equal rights for all. Please, to those who serve on the Court: end the discrimination.

An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, harassment, or discrimination.

When my wife and I met in college, the attraction was immediate, and we quickly became inseparable. We had a number of things in common, we came from the same large metropolitan area, and we both wanted to return there after school, so everything was very natural between us.

Sound familiar?

We married soon after graduation, moved back closer to our families, and had three children by the time we were 30.

Notice, no problem is described as far as the children.

We were both born to lesbians, she to a couple, and me to a single woman. She had sought out her biological father as soon as she turned 18, as the sperm bank her parents used allowed contact once the children were 18 if both parties consented. I never was interested in learning about that for myself, but she felt we were cheating our future children by not learning everything we could about my past, too. Well, our anniversary is coming up and I decided to go ahead and, as a present to my wife, see if my biological father was interested in contact as well. He was, and even though our parents had used different sperm banks, it appears so did our father, as he is the same person.

So, they are genetic half siblings. This is going to happen more and more, because they are more attracted to each other than the average other person they may encounter by chance. We know it has happened to others. Cases like this demonstrate that Genetic Sexual Attraction can’t be merely mental or emotional; there is a biological component to it.

On the one hand, I love my wife more than I can say, and logically, done is done, we already have children. I have had a vasectomy, so we won't be having any more, so perhaps there is no harm in continuing as we are. But, I can't help but think "This is my sister" every time I look at her now.

If I was talking directly to this man, I would say she is your wife and the mother your children. You did not know her as your sister. Do not let the thought of her being a genetic half-sister destroy what was apparently a happy marriage and break up a home. There is no rational reason to stop living as they have been. Don’t let prejudice obliterate happiness.

I haven't said anything to her yet, and I don't know if I should or not.

If the information falls into the wrong hands, it could mean that discriminatory law enforcement could invalidate the marriage, and, depending on where they live, they could be prosecuted if they make love again. Ridiculous, yes, but very real possibilities until we have relationship rights and full marriage equality for all adults.

I think you have to sit her down and show you what you've discovered. Then you two should likely seek out a counselor who deals with reproductive technology to help you sort through your emotions...Yes, you two will have had a shock, but when it wears off you will be the same people you were before you found out. Shocking news has the effect of making people feels as if the waves it sends out will always rock them. But I think you two should be able to file away your genetic origins and go on.

Kudos to Yoffe for supporting their love.

The laws need to be changed and people need to be educated so that consenting adults, whether brought together through GSA or not, are free to be together and free to marry if they want to marry. In this example, they married and had children and, from the sound of it, are happy together. What’s the problem? Why deny them their rights?

I want my kids to have their own rooms eventually. It’s not a gender
thing. I don’t really have a problem with a brother and sister sharing a
room until high school (at least I think I don’t).

For me it’s more about allowing twins to have their own space and
identities. When you are a twin, you are almost always with your
sibling. People lump you together, assume you are the same, and force
you to share what other kids don’t have to. It’s sort of the reason we
put them in separate classrooms at school.

As many of the comments pointed out, for most of human history in most places of the world, siblings shared bedrooms with each other, if not their parents. In many parts of the US in recent years, affluence has allowed (or laws have mandated) that siblings have, if not their own rooms, different rooms for different genders.

Tuesday, February 19, 2013

There's more than one forum online now specific to the issues of Genetic Sexual Attraction. For anyone experiencing GSA, especially if they are having difficulties in their relationship or from external pressures, there's a free, welcoming, supportive forum at http://www.gsaforums.com/ run by people who have actually had relationships initiated through GSA.

Here's an example of what what woman is dealing with because she loves her half-brother.

We have been "dating" for years now. Even now. I chose him, and I will never throw that away. But problems like difference in years, which I never thought would show. I am older, my friends are getting married, or are married with children. I can not marry. I can not even tell anyone. I have to face questions like "what's wrong with you?" more and more often on meetings.

Loss of family also hurts the relationship. Turning your back to those who know to pursue it might form "bad blood" between lovers. His mother, and my mother both figured it out and tried desperately to keep us apart. Unfortunately, being the older one, both parents found me to terrorize.

Sometimes I am contacted by journalists and casting directors looking for people who are in relationships that face discrimination who are willing to appear, at least in some form, in print articles, television shows, or documentaries.

Balanced documentation or depictions of such relationships will lead to more understanding in the population in general, and move us towards relationship rights and full marriage equality for all. There are two concerns that always arise with these requests, however:

1. Will the article/program/documentary actually be balanced or favorable, rather than misleading or negative?

2. Will the lovers who participate be able to do so without bringing further discrimination into their lives?

I do not tell anyone else whether or not to cooperate with these requests. Every set of lovers must decide for themselves what, if anything, they will do in response to these requests. With that in mind, here's the latest information...

Casting Dept. iputyouontv@gmail.com

I'm currently casting a new relationship Docu Series for VH1 and we are interested in featuring non-conventional stories of love! I came across your website and thought it would be great to feature a couple that is experiencing genetic sexual attraction. If selected there is compensation. If you know any couples in the US that would love to tell their story please have them send me a brief story about their current relationship, contact info and recent pics. Thanks for your time.

The docuseries is only meant to shine a positive light on non-conventional relationships and educate others.

There's the information. Do with it what you will. Just to clarify, by "non-conventional" relationships, they mean they'd be interested in hearing from those in polyamorous relationships, polygamous relationships, plural marriages, open relationships, consanguinamorous or consanguineous relationships, consensual adult incest relationships, relationships initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction, etc.

Sometimes I am contacted by journalists and casting directors looking for people who are in relationships that face discrimination who are willing to appear, at least in some form, in print articles, television shows, or documentaries.

Balanced documentation or depictions of such relationships will lead to more understanding in the population in general, and move us towards relationship rights and full marriage equality for all. There are two concerns that always arise with these requests, however:

1. Will the article/program/documentary actually be balanced or favorable, rather than misleading or negative?

2. Will the lovers who participate be able to do so without bringing further discrimination into their lives?

I do not tell anyone else whether or not to cooperate with these requests. Every set of lovers must decide for themselves what, if anything, they will do in response to these requests. With that in mind, here's the latest information...

Charlotte Evans charlotteevans@doubleact.tv

I'm wondering if you might be able to help me.

I'm contacting you from a London based TV Documentary production company, who have been asked by Channel 4 to develop a show on Genetic Sexual Attraction as part of their landmark Cutting Edge series.

Basically I'm looking for British couples in consanguineous sexual relationships who would be willing to talk about their experiences on camera.

It would not be necessary to identify where these couples live, or for them to still be resident in the UK.

Obviously I appreciate there are a myriad of reasons why people might be reluctant to come forward, but our intention would be to explore all aspects of the situation from a measured, thoughtful and extremely sympathetic stand point.

Any help you could give in terms of pointing me in the right direction, or putting me in touch with people who might be able to help would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes,

Charlotte EvansDouble Act Productions Ltd

0207 733 0261www.doubleact.tv

I wrote back to her an clarified if she wants GSA relationships only, or if she would be interested in, for example, siblings who fell in love as they matured together. Her response...

I would be grateful to hear from any consanguineous couple who would be willing to share their story on camera.

Saturday, February 16, 2013

Note: This entry is a couple of years old, and I am bumping it up because it is still relevant. I consider polygamy to be a marital form of polyamory. It can be applied to relationships involving one man and two or more women, one woman and two or more men, three or more women, three or more men, or multiple men and multiple women. The law should allow for any of these, and allow the marriage to be constructed as dyadic networks or all-with-all, depending on what the spouses want. This is all possible and any paperwork issues should not be allowed as an excuse to continue to deny this freedom to marry.

A very helpful person commenting on a previous entry provided and essay on two different possible models for legalizing polygamous or polyamorous marriages. I have previously expressed support for what the essay calls an “all-with-all” model, in which everyone in the marriage is legally considered a spouse of anyone else in the marriage. As such, if two married people wanted to add a third person, it would legally re-form the marriage instead of adding a second marriage to one of the current spouses. Practically, while a Muslim man who practices polygyny would consider up to four women his wives, those wives may or may not (more likely, wouldn’t) consider any of the other wives their spouse. While the man would have four spouses, each of his spouses would only have one; him. Legally, however, “all-with-all” would consider them all spouses of each other.

The essay below favors another model, a “dyadic network” model, in which our hypothetical polygynous man may see two of his multiple wives also marry each other, and later divorce each other while both staying married to him. This does have a certain appeal, because if all three spouses are able to consent to go from a “triangle” to a “V” socially and financially in a peaceful, then isn’t that a good thing that should be supported legally?

My concern, though, is this. Existing marriage laws, at least in the US, create what amounts to a corporation with the two spouses having an equal financial share unless otherwise specified. The default is that should one of the spouses die, the other spouse retains the corporation’s assets. This would have to be changed under the “dyadic network” model, otherwise we’d have what amounts to multiple corporations with equal claims to the very same assets. To use a business model, if a corporation owns a plot of land, how can one of the shareholders create another corporation that has then has ownership of the same plot of land at the same time? The original partner shareholder is not likely to be happy with that. With the “all-with-all” model, shareholders are added to the existing corporation. Given our current laws and legal system, I would think the “all-with-all” model would be easier to legalize.

I am not a lawyer. If a court or legislative body was considering increasing the freedom to marry by adopting the “dyadic network” model, I would support that. My chief concern with this blog is full marriage equality, which includes, among other things, the freedom to polygamous marriage. That may involve a man and multiple women (polygyny), a woman and multiple men (polyandry), or the grouping of multiple men and women. Consent of all involved is essential. This consent not only includes the freedom to marry, but the freedom to divorce.

Under the “all-with-all” model, if one or more spouses wants to bring an additional person into the marriage and one or more of the other current participants is resistant, the person(s) seeking to change the marriage can either 1) give up on the idea, 2) convince those resistant so that they will sign the paperwork, or 3) accept that to add the new person(s), someone else is going to leave. The resistant can either decide to leave or decide that the change will be worth it to stay in the marriage that includes the current spouse(s). The paperwork burden is on those who want to bring in new spouses.

If one or more spouses want to leave, the remaining spouses can decide to stay together in the instantly re-formed marriage, or not, but they can’t stop anyone from leaving.

Under the “dyadic network” model, if one or more spouses want to bring an additional person into the marriage and one or more of the other current participants are resistant, the paperwork burden is on those who want to leave. They must take action, while in the “all-with-all” model, all the resistant have to do is say “no” when someone else wants to add someone else, and it will be up to the person seeking change to either drop the proposed change or leave the existing marriage to create a new one.

Thursday, February 14, 2013

Yes, there are people with enough time on their hands to actively support a discriminatory law that criminalizes consenting adults living together or presenting themselves as having a polyamorous, polygamous, or plural marriage. Makes we wonder if there is anything about their relationships some people might object to?

An organization that opposes decriminalizing
polygamy in Utah made its presence known at the Utah Capitol this
morning.

Members of the Sound Choice Coalition visited with state officials
and asked them to resist loosening Utah’s laws regarding polygamy.

The organization’s founder, Kristyn Decker, is a former polygamist,
and she said if Utah moves to decriminalize polygamy it will allow the
state to become a haven for the abuses that come along with the
practice.

Allowing an ADULT their right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY and ALL consenting adults will actually make it EASIER to prosecute abusers, because victims and witnesses will not be fearful of law enforcement just because they are in a polyamorous relationship. It is absurd that Utah has laws against consenting adults simply living together. Stop the hate and bigotry. Any woman (and any man) should be free to marry a woman, a man, two women, two men, etc. Stop blaming consensual adult relationships for abuse, which happens in supposedly monogamous homes, too.

Decker said many people who seem to be happy with polygamy are
actually miserable, and she said she once pretended to be happy in a
polygamous lifestyle.

She knows what is better for YOU, got it???

The Utah law is ridiculous and needs to go. Abuse will still be illegal. It will be easier to prosecute.

Wednesday, February 13, 2013

By my count, this is the eighteenth committed relationship I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to marry.

Elizabeth is deeply in love with man in her
life, but not only are they currently denied their right to
marry, but they have to hide their love for each other or risk harsh prejudice and even prosecution.

She was generous enough with her time to provide this great interview.

Read this interview and ask yourself if there is one good reason their rights should be denied. (Please note that some the interview includes detailed descriptions of lovemaking and graphic thoughts during lovemaking.)

*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background.

Elizabeth: I'm 37, I live in the eastern US, I am the mother of one son, he's 18 and will be 19 in March. I work in commercial real estate. My son is in college. I currently live alone, my son stays with me on weekends.

FME: Describe how you had your son and why you gave him up for adoption.

I became pregnant at 18, and gave birth shortly after I was 19. I decided to give him up for adoption shortly after I found out I was pregnant. I don't believe in abortion and knew I couldn't raise him on my own. I was only with his father for one night. I'm not proud of that, and it bothers me to think I can't tell my son about his father, because I don't know much about him myself.

FME: Describe how you met or were reunited with your son.

He was asked by his adoptive parents if he wanted to know about his biological mother and he told them he did. They told him my name and he searched for me when he was about 17. It took him a year but when he found my address he sent a letter and then we talked on the phone and by email. We arranged to meet when he had a week off from school in the spring.

FME: What was that first meeting with each other like? What kind of feelings were you experiencing?

I was nervous. We had talked on the phone and by email for several months, but I was still anxious. I had all these thoughts going through my head. What do I say? What should I do? The day before he arrived at times I was so nervous I was shaking. He arrived at my house earlier than planned; he was supposed to get there the next day, so when I opened the door, I didn't expect it would be him. When I saw him, all my worry just vanished in an instant. I was so happy to finally meet him I couldn't stop talking or sit still for a second.

My daughters are attractive young women, both doing well in their professional careers. "Melanie," who is 27, is married to "Sam," an extremely attractive and successful man.

My 30-year-old daughter, "Alicia," has been divorced for a year. Her marriage failed two years ago because she and her husband had an appetite for sex outside their marriage.

Is that the letter writer's assumption? Some people assume that if a polyamorous couple or a couple in an open relation breaks up, it is because they aren't monogamous. However, many monogamists break up without cheating being the cause, and many polyamorists break up without cheating nor what has been mutually agreed being the cause.

While I was disturbed about that, I was horrified to learn that Melanie allows her sister to occasionally have sex with Sam.

Horrified to learn that one of her daughters "allows" the other daughter to have sex with her husband? Why is that something to be horrified about, if all three of them want that and have agreed to that? Be horrified if someone abuses people or animals, or commits arson. But horrified over consensual sex?

I'm only aware of one country that might let the woman who wrote this (below) marry the person she loves, because the person she is in love with is her half-brother (they were raised apart). Legalization, however, does not automatically remove all of the hatred they'd face. So, she laments something they have given up because of their love...

Marriage. Always the bridesmaid never the bride.Hurts when you watch all your childhood friends go through it while you can't even tell anyone how in love you really are.
Being the man I never thought he would be bothered by it. He always said, we don't need it.
But after a particular argument we had during the last weeks, he laid
down on the bed and took me in his arms. We laid back silently for a
while, when he mentioned marriage. Said how much he wishes he could
marry me.
To have a wedding cake like others, a dress I would love. I joked that
all he wants is to eat a giant chocolate cake, but I know he was being
serious.
It feels annoying when I see all those couples getting married without
love, starting arguments out of the most insignificant details at the
wedding. When given the half hour we just laid there, we put together
the whole wedding. And surprise surprise. He wanted the EXACT same
things I did. Down to the roses, music, and my wedding dress. Who would
have thought a guy can care about all this? He actually confessed
imagining me as a bride when he would see dresses.
All we can do is wear symbolic rings. He wears one from me, I from him,
and we never take it off. The symbol of our love and commitment, the
most we can get..
But marrying for money is legal. Hear, hear!

Wouldn't it be nice if they could publicly declare their love for each other, get legally married, and have this celebration, without any controversy? This is why we need full marriage equality sooner rather than later, and we need the support of family and friends.

As I always remind my readers, if you want to join Kindred Spirits
(it's free), which is NOT just for siblings but is a place to talk
about any kind of consanguinamorous relationship, be sure to read and
immediately follow all of the rules, or they will kick you right out.

Sunday, February 10, 2013

Friend of this blog, Liz, left a comment that I wanted to highlight. You can read about Liz and her consanguinamorous relationship with Ryan here. (I'm bumping up this entry because it is still applicable today.)

My brother and I love each other very much, and live as a couple. In fact, my story is on this very blog. If anyone were to ask me, I would tell them that consensual incest is a wonderful thing. After all, who loves you more than family? I know it's not for everyone, but I would encourage those curious about it to consider trying it. Of course, there could be bad consequences, so be careful.

It really is wonderful, like nothing you can imagine. My dream is that the laws against incest were all repealed so that people would not have to fear the government intruding on their private lives.

There are many people like Liz and Ryan, but most of them are not public about the true nature of their relationship. Either they present themselves as siblings sharing a home mostly for convenience, or they are living in a locale where nobody knows they are closely related, and they live openly as husband and wife, though usually denied the legal freedom to marry. Because of awful laws and bullying, most consanguinamorous relationships remain closeted.

Many siblings, cousins, and other close relatives close in age experiment as teens to mutual enjoyment and benefit. Society would be better off if more teens did this as opposed to tangling with strangers or classmates, especially ones much older. Some close relatives go on to have lifelong spousal relationships, or something between that and the youthful experimentation some enjoy. None of this should be a matter that brings down law enforcement intrusion into personal relationships. None of this should bring about bullying by bigots. Quite often, it should bring celebration. They are beautiful, loving relationships, and they should have the freedom to marry if that is what they want.

If you want to tell your own story or have me interview you the way I interviewed Liz and the way I interviewed Linda, Melissa, and Matthew, I will keep your identity as private as you want. You can find me at yahoo.com as fullmarriageequality.

These are some examples I found at a site that has since been transformed into a different site, but it used to be the best place to talk about GSA online, free of charge. Continue reading for some highlights.

My ex in committing incest. No
one believes it happening except one family member who has chosen to
stay silent about it. My ex is my best friend and lover. Not only am I
torn by the incest part and whether I should try harder to stop it,(I
feel that if it were my children I would want to do something to stop
it) but obviously I am now in a situation where I have to make a
decision whether or not to give up my ex because he has stated that he
has no intention of stopping the behavior. They are a bit obsessed with
each other and convinced they are in love. I love him a lot. He says he
loves me as well. He is pretty much the most important person in my life
and he tells me that she and I are the most important people in his.
The question isn't about whether I care for him or vice versa but I am
sickened by what he is doing and on top of everything now I am being
asked to share him, with his sister of all people. Also, I am aware that
if I try to stop the relationship by proving that it is happening, I
will probably lose him as well. I don't know if I should just walk away
or if I should try to fight for him, his mental health and his future.

This person added...

I
guess I should add we are all adults but she is pretty young on the
adult scale and quite a few years younger than him. Also, they did not
grow up together and in fact only met within the last year.

This sounds like the ex and his sister could be experiencing Genetic Sexual Attraction. It also sounds like the person asking the question has a friends-with-benefits arrangement with him. Although some places still have laws against consenting adults who are full or half siblings having sex, such laws are unjust and should not be used as a tool of revenge or manipulation. The question-asker is aware of the situation. Is the sister? I'm all for polyamory if that is what everyone involved agrees to. Most poly people would say the informed consent of everyone involved is necessary for it to be considered polyamory rather than cheating. I do believe that GSA can prompt people who otherwise wouldn't cheat to do so. That is not to excuse cheating, but rather to help make a distinction between someone who will generally cheat and someone who won't.

If the asker does not want to continue with the situation, the best option is to set boundaries with him, which may have to include dropping contact with him entirely. Trying to pry apart lovers, especially lovers drawn together by GSA, even using the force of law, will not bring satisfactory results. There is no good reason why consenting adults shouldn't be free to share sex.

Wednesday, February 6, 2013

A Miami-Dade circuit judge has approved a private adoption allowing three people — a gay man and a married lesbian couple — to be listed on the birth certificate of their 23-month-old daughter.

This is a victory for LGBT parents, monogamous or polyamorous, and polyamorous parents in general.

“We’re creating entirely new concepts of families. If you have two women seeking to be listed as Parent One and Parent Two, that does not exclude listing a man as father,” said Miami family lawyer Karyn J. Begin, who represented dad Massimiliano “Massimo” Gerina in a two-year paternity case involving lesbian friends who had his baby.

While this is a defeat for this lesbian couple, it is a general victory for LGBT rights (as well as the rights of anyone seeking donated sperm or eggs), because it will allow couples who do want a third parent involved to have that involvement. But it does require that the parents agree ahead of time what the arrangement will be. Nobody should donate or accept donated eggs or sperm without a legal agreement as to whether the donor will be an active parent or just a donor.

On only a verbal agreement, Gerina gave the women his sperm and Italiano conceived. The lesbians planned for Filippazzo to later adopt the baby and they would both raise the child.

Florida law specifies that sperm donors have no legal rights in artificial inseminations. Thus the hitch: Gerina says he considered himself a parent, not simply a donor. The women, he claimed, “wanted a father for the baby, not just the sperm.”Two weeks after insemination, Italiano learned she was pregnant. About seven months later, the women called Gerina and asked him to sign a contract.“When they gave me the paper to sign that I had to give up all my rights to the baby, I didn’t,” he said.Gerina began to ponder the legal consequences of siring a child. He hired Begin and presented the women with papers of his own.“My papers said I would have parental rights, a visitation schedule,” he said. “They hated it. They said this wasn’t what they wanted. I said, ‘Now that you’re already pregnant, you should have thought about that before.’ ”

The important thing that makes this a victory for polyamorous parents, LGBT parent couples, and anyone who donates or receives egg or sperm donations is that it allows for three parents, if that is desired.

Growing up and becoming an adult, every person must go through her or his own journey in their gender expression and discovering their sexuality, whatever her or his orientation. Confusion, doubt, insecurity, and frustration are common experiences, even more so if what someone is feeling and experiencing is stigmatized by law or some other form of discrimination. Having a safe place to talk honestly can be very important in helping people. For people in consanguinamorous relationships, there's no better place than Kindred Spirits forum.

The most common expression of consanguinamory other than between cousins is between siblings. It is not uncommon for siblings to experiment, explore, or even develop something much deeper and lasting. But any given pair of siblings might feel like they are the only people in the world going through what they're going through, and might have internalized prejudice and stigmas that say any expression or exploration of sexuality is dirty, let alone between siblings. You can see the love, and also the struggle, in the words of a young women who is active at Kindred Spirits, who wrote a while back...

GSAs are very
important in helping young people deal with discrimination and raise
awareness.

I recommend starting, supporting, or joining
a GSA. They aren't just for LGBT people, but heterosexual allies as
well. Polyamorous and consanguinamorous students (out or not) and people
with poly parents should join to show solidarity
for people who are denied their rights and show others who are
skeptical about solidarity that poly people and people in
consanguinamorous relationships are regular people who also face
discrimination.

Tuesday, February 5, 2013

Imagine a consenting relationship between three people, now imagine them all being women. The Fringeworld production Poly offers an insight into what that would look like…

It seems three women in love makes for an interesting show.

I would think so.

Showing at the Moonhouse Tent just outside the Court Hotel, the
previously sold out production attributes it success to a number of key
aspects, actress Ann-Marie Biagioni explained:

‘It’s relatable to everybody, the context doesn’t really matter,
which is why I think we’ve drawn a really great crowd. People who are
gay are coming to see it, to appreciate the fact that this is something
not prominent here. There is not a lot of theatre about this kind of
thing. I think places like this need that kind of stuff.’

I agree.

Poly will be showing at the Moonhouse Tent at Fringeworld from February 20 – 24. Grab your tickets at fringeworld.com.au

As the producers are finding out, poly people are everywhere. It is important to have some theatre and some media reflecting that reality. For some it is a something new to look at, but for many people it is life. They are polyamorous, always have been, and always will be.

I blogged about a course being offered at University of Missouri and some of the reaction to it. It looks like a fascinating course that will “examine the deployment of erotic desire, love, and
sympathy as political, economic, and textual strategies, and analyze the
gender dynamics involved in such deployment” when it comes to siblings. Everything from experimentation & exploration to lifelong romances have existed between siblings throughout history, and this had made it into literature. It makes sense for institutions of higher learning to deal with these subjects.

Last weekend, as you sent your beloved young adult back to college
for the term, you’re thinking, “Man, life is getting more expensive.
What with 5% less in my paycheck (thanks, guv’ment), and costs of
college skyrocketing, I really hope Suzie gets the most out of this
year, because I just don’t know how many more mortgages I can put on our
house. But then again, she’s learning. She’ll get a good job. It’s a
good investment.”

As I wrote before, there are higher odds that young adult has somehow been involved in consanguineous experimentation or sex with a sibling than that she'll be in the class. Playing doctor, "show me yours, I'll show you mine," curiosity, being walked in on and not stopping, horseplay, party games, a stolen moment of raging hormones... those things all happen.

Maxwell goes on to bemoan universities not being reduced to conservative theological seminaries before almost getting it, ironically...

Monday, February 4, 2013

I appreciate whatever comments are left here on the blog, even if someone expresses a disagreeing opinion. I especially like to hear from people who are helped from visiting here or have a related experience they want to share.

Recently, someone left a comment after an interview I did with a man who was having a relationship with his mother. The person leaving the comment was a woman who could relate to the situation...

I'm in a relationship like this. My son was taken from me when he was 6, he's a fully grown handsome young man now. When he moved back home with me nothing like this had crossed our minds but I was seeing a man just older than my son and he got jealous. I queried why and he said because he wanted to hold me close, kiss me on the lips and make love to me. I thought he had lost his mind. I gave in once thinking it was just something he needed to get out of his system. Oh no it wasn't. We have both fallen deeply in love with each other, the sex is out of this world and although I have reservations he will one day leave me to find someone to have a family with which he says he won't do, he has said he would marry me if it was possible too. I would love to marry him, have his child, we live as husband and wife but even though in some states gay people are allowed to marry, we're not. It's not fair. Fairness for everyone no matter what their sexual orientation is.

This is someone I'd definitely like to hear more from, as the comment raises many questions. It sounds like a Genetic Sexual Attraction situation, since he was removed from her life before he was seven years of age.

It is common in intergenerational relationships, especially involving an older woman and younger man, for the older person to have insecurities about being left by the younger person for a "more acceptable" person closer in age. The younger partner, if wanting to have children, may have reservations about doing so with an older partner. It is something that everyone in these relationships must work out for themselves. I speak from experience, having had relationships with older women starting when I was just 19. Of course, in this situation, there's the added issue of the relationship being consanguinamorous and subject to the discrimination that still comes along with that. Ultimately, what really matters is what they want and how they treat each other. It shouldn't be anyone else's business. If they are happy together, they should be free to be together in every sense of the word and to marry if they want to.

As always, you are free to leave comments after my blog entries or you can email me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com ... or at http://www.facebook.com/fullmarriageequality

Usually, the more people discuss adult relationships that face discrimination, the better, because when people think it though they realize that an adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all other consenting adults. Discussions about interracial dating and marriage, same-gender marriage, polyamory, and consanguineous relationships pop up in everything from baby boards to game forums. This discussion took place at thinkatheist.com.

Someone identified as matt clerke got the discussion going...

I allow my mind to wander sometimes (particularly on the bus) and
somehow wound up thinking about incest. I get that it's wrong, The
thought of being sexual with my brother is definitely not appealing, but
I don't get why. What are some objections to incest?The two I can think of is genetic diversity is compromised in cases
of reproduction from incest, and psychologically it may not be healthy.The genetics argument is essentially invalid due to the availability
of contraception, abortions, and the fact that there are over 7 billion
people on the planet.The psychology argument would be valid if shown to be true, although
even then it should be treated as a psychological problem, not a
criminal one.

I
am not particularly opposed to consensual incestuous relationships or
even marriages. The concerns I have regarding such unions are not unique
to incestuous partners, and are not severe enough that I think the
practice should be universally condemned. I've never accepted the 'ick'
factor to be a legitimate argument against homosexual relationships, so I
would be a hypocrite to apply it here.

The concerns I do have:

In the case of inbreeding, the risk of offspring being homozygous recessive for autosomal recessive genetic disorders increases. I don't feel this issue is significant, however, as recessive genetic disorders can be inherited in non-incestuous breeding, and not all incestuous pairs are carrying recessive genetic disorders or are even heterosexual or interested in producing offspring.Genetic diversity also isn't a huge concern. Genetic diversity is important in the overall population, and allowing incest in a society such as mine is unlikely to have any significant impact. Even given the choice, I think a very marginal minority would choose incest with immediate family or even first cousins or aunts or uncles.The other concern is the potential for relationships to be formed out of abuse. Members of a family exercise strong influence over each other. A parent, sibling, cousin or, aunt or uncle could have had influence over an individual for their entire lives. In that scenario, it becomes difficult to tell if that individual consents to incest due to their own personal desire, or if it is a matter of coercion. While I have this concern, it is not a unique issue to incest, and unless I can actually demonstrate child abuse, at a certain point we cannot dictate the actions of other adults. For better or worse, we have to trust others to make decisions for themselves.If that decision happens to be incest? Regardless of my personal feelings about it, that decision does not cause me or society any appreciable harm of which I am aware, so I really don't think it's any o' my damn business.

Based on what I currently know, I cannot object to incest on any grounds that aren't prejudicially discriminatory and hypocritical.

That last line is a good way of saying what I've been showing when it comes to consanguinamory. There is no objection to consanguinamorous relationships that is consistently applied. Usually, it is trying to justify someone's personal disgust. But person A's disgust should not prevent persons B & C from being together.

The more people talk these things over, the more we move towards full marriage equality.

Friday, February 1, 2013

When people find love with each other and are able to make it work, people outside of the relationship shouldn't be able to force themselves into it. Yet that is what happens when there are laws that criminalize or discriminate against consenting adults based on who they love. In addition, ignorant and prejudiced disapproval from family and people who had been thought of as friends can sting ever so sharply.

At the Kindred Spirits forum, people in consanguinamorous relationships talk about the lives and their loves. One of the topics that came up recently was "What have you lost?" What have these lovers lost as a result of their love? What has it cost them?

The person who started the discussion wrote...

For us, we lost our past - our parents, our hometown, our old friends. And we can't put many photos up and about.

The first response was...

i've
lost exactly the same things you have, as for my parents, i don't care
much at all. although i do miss my Dad at times, he was always good to
me, my Mother hated me no matter what i did,, i also miss my home town
and state very much, we gave up everything to stay in the north, im from
the south and not a yank at heart... old friends ??? To many know us and have judged us,
but i have made new friends that don't know about us and have accepted
us as an unwed couple, so all in all life is what you make of it, and we
have a very good life together...

Another response, from someone who had to move to protect her love...

We miss the mountains, the country
lifestyle etc.
Neither [of us] regret losing our elder brother, we have the rest
of the family that know and support us, and that means far more to us
both. Sibling rivalry can certainly be quite a horrible thing to deal
with, so we had to make the choice to either protect what we had, or
lose our brother. I think we made the right choice though, we will soon
be celebrating 25 years together.

I moved
up north to be with my brother, I lost some friends as I'm so far away.
Apart from that, there was not much loss for us. I've made new
friends, and my family, Well my foster family really didn't care for me,
and well havn't had a relationship with any of them since my 20's. My
blood family, I only reunited with them 2 years ago, and I couldn't care
less i've that i've lost them.
The biggest loss, well is the freedom to show my love outside of our
house that I have for my brother. Of course I could never do that from
the start, so not a proper loss, although when I was married I could
hold hands when out shopping. I'd love to be able to be free outside
with my brother.
I do love my life though.

It makes so much difference when family and friends are supportive, rather than bitter, jealous, or judgmental. These lovers should be free to be together, free to marry if they want, and not have to hide their love for each other.

If you are in a consanguinamorous relationship or know someone who is, you might want to join the discussions at Kindred Spirits forum. But be sure to immediately read and follow the rules, or they'll kick you right off!

Full Marriage Equality

About This Blog

I argue for marriage equality. By that I mean that society and all local, state, federal, and international laws, institutions, and programs should recognize any marriage registered by any persons without restrictions on the basis of race, color, creed, ancestry, national origin, sex, gender, sexual orientation, or religion.

The global definition of marriage should be as follows: "The uniting of consenting individuals in a witnessed ceremony."

We believe everyone has the right to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adult(s) of their choice, regardless of birth or sexual orientation.

The Fine Print

The focus of this blog is consenting adults. This blog does not advocate anyone engage in activity that is currently illegal in their jurisdiction; it does advocate changing or repealing any law that prevents the freedom of association, love, and full marriage equality for adults. This blog condemns rape, sexual assault, and child molestation, and frowns in the general direction of cheating. This blog exists mainly to evaluate information and direct others to information about current events; it does not provide medical, therapeutic, legal, financial, or cooking advice. This blog links to other sites for informational purposes; it does not necessarily support everything at those links.