Mystery, was an innovator and because in part of guys like him, is why we have the community, this forum and a multimillion dollar industry... More importantyl, Mystery also got directly and indirectly hundreds of people laid... So why many seducers have moved on and advice against mystery is going to be explain by this seducer goes by Pyro who still believes that mm is beneficial in some ways and debunk the problems with the method:

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The Basic Steps/Phases of Mystery MethodA1 - OpenA2 - Show her that you're worth dating/fuckingA3 - Get her to tell you why she's worth dating/fucking

C1 - Conversation, get to know each otherC2 - Deeper Connection, Vibe, KissC3 - Intimacy, Heavy making out at the close location

S1 - Makeout in the bedroom, escalateS2 - LMRS3 - Sex

To me, this looks like a pretty standard advice these days. So why do guys have issues with Mystery Method?

The Main Issues Guys Have with the Original Mystery Method IMHO:

1. A lack of focus on just fucking, same night lays, pulling in less than 2-4 hours, and wracking up lay counts, and a much greater focus on getting numbers, getting multiple dates, spending closer to 7 hours to close the deal, and avoiding buyer's remorse.

2. Not liking the A3 Qualification phase in particular because honestly it's kinda hard, annoying, boring, highly misunderstood, not easily understood, often seemingly ineffectual, seems kinda unnecessary, and essentially often lying because maybe you really are just talking to girl because of her looks. And in general, the whole thing lacks the sizzle of other pickup concepts.

4. Guys not liking the terminology. A1, C3, S92, P90x is really easily to mock (I just did) and for a myriad of reasons never really caught on (mostly because it's easy to laugh at a guy asking for help with his C2, and because it's in no other seduction teacher's interest to be using another coach's terminology.)

5. Mystery claiming that this was the one true way, and the only real way, when it's obvious that there were tons of people having sex with hot girls that were totally unaware of MM.

6. The A2 phase (Showing her you're worth fucking) only being comprised of a bunch of memorized DHV stories and not incorporating teasing, banter, swagger, attitude, cockiness, aloofness, etc.

7. Guys don't like C1 Comfort and C2 Deep Comfort because it's boring, kinda unmasculine, and "bloody hell why this is taking way so long." And they see other guys in the bar having success with cavemanning, making out, grind dancing, etc.

10. The routines get boring as hell after a while and a lot of the spark in the delivery dies when guys get sick of saying them. You become required to be an actor, faking enthusiasm, but most guys aren't trained Shakespearean actors.

11. You get paranoid using the same material that other dudes might be using and aren't skilled enough to come up with your own stuff.

12. Getting a girl using only another man's words/lines/routines is just never going to be a super solid foundation from which to start a long-term relationship. You gotta use at least some (most) of your own stuff - she's going to be dating you, not the lines and routines you read on the internet.

13. It can lead you to becoming a long-term peacocked PUA, which might have worked as a long term identity a long time ago when all of this shit was way more underground (probably still wasn't a great idea), but then the VH1 show let the cat out of the bag and turned that fuzzy tap hat into a late night punch-line.

14. Some of the MM ideas don't line up with science. Peacocking is for peacocks. Does it work for human males? Maybe, but you gotta be willing to take a lot of shit. Mystery never claimed otherwise. And using false time constraints because the first thing a group thinks is "when is this guy going to go away" isn't always true either. Sometimes, but a bar is a social situation, often it's totally unnecessary.

15. A lack of focus on personal attitudes, personal beliefs, and inner game in general. Mystery Method was completely outer game focused, an attitude that does have quite a few merits but has lost favorability.

16. A complete lack of focus on lifting and other attractive activities that make girls wet

17. A total lack of focus or explanation on the reality that if you're trying to get the hottest of the hot girls, you're still competing with guys that have money, fame, drugs, tattoos, connections, and guys that generally act like scum (think drug dealers) and they're still getting chicks.

18. Mystery never really learning much from anyone else near as I can tell. He came up with most of his stuff on his own and it seems as though he was never really interested in wearing a student hat, only the master or the teacher hat. So he could never add any new ideas to his method unless he came up with them himself.

19. Mystery stopped innovating and updating his method, stopped participating in public or private forums, and pretty much didn't defend himself or his method from the haters/onslaught of people mocking it (often for their own marketing purposes.) I suppose he has no responsibility to update his stuff or to defend it from critics, but I wish he had.

20. DHV stories being poorly done and usually coming off as bragging. Can DHV stories be used correctly and have the intended "attraction switching" effect? Maybe, but no one seems to be field testing them these days because they're so easy to do poorly. Other concepts such as breaking rapport, teasing, and DLV'ing started being used instead.

Almost no one seems to do DHV stories in order to flip specific attraction switches anymore. Do these attraction switches exist? Can they be flipped? Maybe, this was a huge part of Mystery Method. In Mm, the goal was to flip as many attraction switches as possible. But you rarely hear of anyone going out and attempting to flip a series of attraction switches anymore, especially with DHV stories.

21. People not liking MM's central focus on Evolutionary Biology and conveying those traits through DHV stories. For whatever reason, while the concept of "Being Alpha" is still okay, the concept of Evolutionary Biology is highly disliked and likened to voodoo pseduo-science

Culturally, the Right in the United States hates evolutionary biology because they don't want to believe in evolution at all instead preferring to believe in religion, god, genesis, etc.

The Left hates evolutionary biology because it's in opposition to a lot of feminism and also might be seen as a philosophy of "survival of the fittest" which goes against their welfare state programs that they champion. It also opens a pandora's box of questions about race that the left is completely and totally against.

With many, many, many people identifying with either the Left or the Right in the United States and many other countries, they all have a vested interest in mocking or at least ignoring the entire field of evolutionary biology as much as possible.

22. MM's focus and insistence on approaching groups, handling group dynamics, and backwards and forwards merging sets so you can have a better chance at landing the really hot girl at the far end of the bar. Guys do not want to approach groups, let alone learn how to backwards and forward merge sets. Even if it works and is superior than just approaching the girl, no one I know actually wants to do it, learn it, discuss it, post about it, or trouble-shoot it. People hate approaching, let alone approaching the entire group all at once.

23. The Spontaneity Problem - Once you ran out of routines and lines, you actually had to have conversation skills, humor skills, leadership skills, people skills etc. And eventually, even if you had a 10+ hour stack, you are going to run out of routines and lines and you're going to have to open your own mouth and live your own life. And Mystery Method never truly, deeply addressed that. It never claimed to, but what it did claim was that it was the be-all, end-all. And for nerds looking to become ladies men, become better, and become cooler that wasn't exactly 100% true

24. The whole thing just seeming like a whole bunch of bloody work. Guys just wanting an easier way.

I honestly believe that the biggest issue Mystery Method had was Mystery's insistence that his was the one and only way and passing this attitude onto his students. If the material had accompanied an attitude of "this is one of the ways, this is the way that I use, it's not perfect, but it works for me, and you're welcome to use it if you wish" then it wouldn't have been as easy for people to laugh at.

Then again, if Mystery was that humble, he probably wouldn't have created any of it in the first place.

Just because Mystery got exposed in "The Game" for sobbing over a girl, people believe that "He's psychologically fucked up". While all of us have suffered from depression and limiting beliefs, it doesn't mean a person has psychological issues. It simply means he was going through a bad phase at that time.

And those PUAs who project their image "threesomes" as their lifestyle (guys like Adam Lyon - his material is great btw) take advantage of the fact that no body who knew them that well took out the time to write almost an entire book about their life. Or on the flip side, nobody gives a f**k about them so they never really got exposed.

Nevertheless, it is said that

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If you want to really succeed, you have to be Controversial

May be thats really what it is.

PS: Apparently Mystery is an arrogant person, which probably has caused most of the PUAs (specially the average forum PUAs) to have a hatred/envy towards him, thus the extreme criticism.

Really good ideas and a way to relate MM for some of the things people see as 'new'.

I would also add to this that Mystery's ways of seeing these interactions and communication as a science is often misunderstood. Concepts such as she does this so you do this, this and this to get the girl get lost these days because "the game is so random, girls are so different, or you never know what's going to happen."

Specifically there is only so much new shit that can happen when you go out enough, it's likely at that point you have seen it all and should be prepared for it or should have the adaptability to adjust.

Personally I feel MM does still have relevance, and is often misunderstood. I see MM as a basic framework, a guide. It's designed for people who are essentially starting at the bottom and gives a handle on the basics. When Mystery says it is the 'only way' and people then say 'well how were people doing it before then?' what I think he means is, is that it is the natural way -

1. Two individuals meet.2. Both people get to know eachother and discover they are attracted3. They become comfortable with eachother4. They have relations of some kind

This may happen in the space of a few minutes or even days, weeks, years. What MM does is break down these steps to help people who dont feel they have a natural ability to have the confidence to do it.

It could also be argued that the whole geeky jargon thing serves its own purpose. Yes, one could say that its just geeky and pointless to use words like kino, neg, disqualification etc... But what is does do is create an "us and them" mentality. By understanding and using jargon it can make an individual feel they are part of a special club, which can then give them confidence in themselves from feeling like they have a better grasp on the science/psychology of what they are doing. Whether they do or not is irrelevant, as long as they feel better in themselves.

A criticism of MM however, is how the application of his methods are often mostly relevant to a particular lifestyle (living in a big city, having a big house/apartment, enough spare time to go out 4 nights a week plus dates on top of that, and also having the financial backing to build that lifestyle). On the other hand, his market is people who can have that lifestyle and are wealthy enough to spare $5000 for a boot camp.

Overall I think that MM is still useful because it is accessible and spoon feeding for beginners trying to get into pickup. As they mature they will naturally discover other ways and move away from the detailed structure of the MM. But basically every method is really based around the 4 steps - meet, attract, comfort, relations.

Personally I feel MM does still have relevance, and is often misunderstood. I see MM as a basic framework, a guide. It's designed for people who are essentially starting at the bottom and gives a handle on the basics. When Mystery says it is the 'only way' and people then say 'well how were people doing it before then?' what I think he means is, is that it is the natural way -

1. Two individuals meet.2. Both people get to know eachother and discover they are attracted3. They become comfortable with eachother4. They have relations of some kind

This may happen in the space of a few minutes or even days, weeks, years. What MM does is break down these steps to help people who dont feel they have a natural ability to have the confidence to do it.

But basically every method is really based around the 4 steps - meet, attract, comfort, relations.

This. +1

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A criticism of MM however, is how the application of his methods are often mostly relevant to a particular lifestyle (living in a big city, having a big house/apartment, enough spare time to go out 4 nights a week plus dates on top of that, and also having the financial backing to build that lifestyle). On the other hand, his market is people who can have that lifestyle and are wealthy enough to spare $5000 for a boot camp.

I like this criticism and I have to wonder, as men if we are not building our ideal lifestyle then what are we doing? It doesn't have to be in a big city with really expensive material things, but we have been given the keys to a knowledge that most people don't realize exists. The ability to communicate with almost anyone and get the hottest girls, why is it that some people here are still looking at such limitations as money and other things while not creating the life they want?

I've played around with some models myself, and I came across some similar things to mm independently

BUT

And this is a big but...

It made me see how he made it, and it made me scoff a bit.

Why? Well as soon as you break a night up into three phases, you say, introduction, feeling them out, attraction, then you move to the part where shes attracted and you are like, refresh, build up, consolidate, then you move to the part they are stuck to you and you add on, relax, pleasure, smooth into it.Its not complicated voodoo, and its NOT inventive.

Women a) don't know youb) aren't sold on youc) aren't in bed with you

So... youa) introduce yourselfb) sell them on youc) get them in bed

But he just obscures that SIMPLE AND UNIMAGINATIVE truth behind jargon and quick talk (so people got confused)

He could have just said, "hey dumbass, you introduce, convince her, then get alone" and everyone would have said "no shit"But instead he puts names on it and makes it look complex like a mutual fund manager, to make people feel "outside of the special club"

Errr... yeah, that was REAL GENEROUS OF YOU DUDEExcept, no it wasn't

There is NO mystery in his method at all. It is just an illusion of sophistication, that hides a rather uninventive truth and makes it unnecessarily restrictive/complex to mind fuck people.That is BEFORE we get to routines and negs etc.The idea they could just be used like fish bait was a DISASTER and guyss STILL do shit like that today.You go to london and you'll see a guy running around approaching, and you'll see the mechanical bullshit he's doing and think "you do know that style was dead on arrival right? why are you using it?".

Girls around the world now SPOT that shit, and are now relieved that they can because now it isn't like "wtf is with this dude", they can figure it out and move on.Let us not pretend pua has a good name, its name is rat shit, and its goof balls, dickheads, and dumbasses that helped that perception be cultivated in their vain, egocentric, mastabatory claim to fame.

No one gives a shit about a womaniser. Except guys who neck jerk and say "wait, fuck, I can think on this!!! Thats great!!".Mystery and the like just fed on that SINCERE AND VULNERABLE curiousity, and fed it into patchy and shady explainations that obscured and hid away simpler truths at the base of it, because they feared they'd lose people's attention if they revealled that people weren't actually THAT broken in the first place.

It created and amplified this massive rift of insecurity, which then was THROWN back in womens faces, as dudes started blaming girls for their bitter performances. And guys retreated into even deeper fear and shame.

THAT was their fucking legacy. And I refuse to glorify what was essentially "eat shit and die" attitudes towards guys struggling and who had an honest desire to learn and grow with women.

Its a fucking crime on pua hobbyists to narrow their creativity into what is essentially the most obvious shit on earth.Yes you say hello, then you talk, then you don't be a weirdo about sex.But then he made people do that SIMPLE THING in a totally retarded way.

What. The. Shit.

My point is, we can't get past that in our community until we are fucking honest about it being a MISTAKE.We are all grateful to THINK FOR OURSELVES now, but we all EARNED that.No one can say "oh but I built the obstacle you jumped over and got you interested!".You know why?Because they shat on EVERYTHING we all stood for, and assumed we were weak pieces of shit that deserved to follow.

FUCK THAT.

If it wasn't them it was going to be someone else, and they did a shitty job filtering out bullshit.And we STILL suffer the effects of that.

Its like bush invading iraq, it was dumb.

I'm not even grateful to those guys, I'm grateful to the guys in the middle, and newcomers, who pulled everyone away from that shit.BUT ITS STILL THERE, and people SHOULD be pissed, because it makes us all look like assholes.

A handful of assholes proliferated to make us all seem clueless, which isn't true.And thats fucked up.

No way we benefit by giving the dude a medal.He needs to be knocked down and made to respect OUR hard earned sanity, not the other way around where we pretend shit was silver.

It was a mistake, and many guys fell into the trap,The mistake was not that we were finally being interested in women, the mistake was not taking accountability for that interest and becoming a mindless crowd rather than genuine and interested individualsAnd now that many of us are better than that shit by ASTOUNDING MEASURESWho will believe us?

Fuck those guys

We need to start considering that they fucked us,A piano isn't going to fall from the sky and crush you because you admit it out loud,They fucked us, and now we look like a bunch of idiots to most people,

Fact.

And that pervasive effect is like an infectious disease for as long as we don't vigilantly and clearly expose it(yes, it is time to move away from just sayin it was bad, its time to know WHY)

None of us are sex maniacs that just have one goal,We are just normal guys, trying to make a difference and be betterThey fucked that image right up

No way they deserve pity commendationsThey turned the world against usAnd now thats where we startExplaining ourselvesWhen it was a handful of retards that made it that way

If you can't SEE that yet, I recommend you do, because once you see the truth, you won't at all be confused about where to stand

He could have just said, "hey dumbass, you introduce, convince her, then get alone" and everyone would have said "no shit"But instead he puts names on it and makes it look complex like a mutual fund manager, to make people feel "outside of the special club"

but mostly this part wrote:

a) introduce yourselfb) sell them on youc) get them in bed

This is precisely why I hate talking to normal people I know about picking up women, and have to seek out "badly-named" websites like this to make sense of my life. Everything is simple and everyone knows how to do it.

The author, much as most normal people, assumes that the reader will intuitively know what to do when he tells you to go introduce yourself. I don't know much about mm or what this whole new dimension of pickup artistry that people are doing now is, but my idea of introduce yourself is walk up to a girl and say"Hi, my name is thisnthat."But he doesn't say that everything rides on the way you do this and that it is okay to feel fear when doing it. It's logical, yeah? Okay, let's say so, but then the next step is to sell yourself. Are you kidding me?"I drive a Ferrarri.""I am CEO at that big company.""I speak all languages.""I have an elephant dick."Do I need continue? I could write a story but I'll just say that while I have a lot to offer people in a variety of fields, talking about my qualifications has always landed me second to the other last choice after death.

And let's say that on that off chance that I manage to interact with the girl, that we actually get to know each other, the next step is to get her into bed. The way, and right now the only way, I can imagine this is to pick the girl up and carry her to bed, then proceed to do what you would normally do if you were a rapist.

As far as terminology goes, however, there is a deeper point to having an internal "lingo" than feeling part of something. Let me put it this way: in my mother tongue we do not have separate meanings for words "destruction" and "obliteration." Having a word in distinction makes us able to conceptualize a series of frames of mind, desired outcomes, expectations, and enables to evaluate a problem in order to improve ourselves.

The subtle point is that to some of us this is not a sport to compete in. What the author does is take an approach that every single guy in the world can think of, and make people like myself feel stupid beyond our shortcomings. I could as well simplify what he said into"Go out and fuck girls," and I would be completely right. There was someone who literally told me that. You go find a girl and fuck her.

As far as arrogance goes, I have heard of Mystery's infamous arrogance but this is what I consider to be the bottom of the barrel. The inability to even consider the very individuality of other people (that you put so much emphasis on) as having a fundamentally different base than your own. So to better or worse, how ever correct or incorrect mm has been proven to be through the years, it still tells me more than the "no shit" explanation.

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