HOMEBREW Digest #3924 Thu 25 April 2002

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:Yahoo! Group for contest announcements and results posting (Robert Marshall)Inline Water Heaters (Steven J. Owens)Re Barley Wine (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)Prison beers . . . (Ray Daniels)Atlanta Micro's and HB Shops ("Mark Nelson")Re: Hello again! ("Chad Gould")Mango wit - suggestions? (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com>Re: High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36 ("Gregor Zellmann")Cleaning the taps and lines ("Berggren, Stefan")Here's a hot one: brewing in the bottle? ("James Sploonta")Hops brew pubs (DHinrichs)Re: HSA stuff ("Larry Bristol")Atlanta brews ("Dennis Waltman")Sunshine Challenge Competition - Top Ten Reasons (Don Lake)Koehler (Paul Mahoney)Diacetyl Please ("Bates, Floyd G")
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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:25:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm1 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Yahoo! Group for contest announcements and results posting
Hi all,
Just a quick note. A few months ago
I created a new Yahoo! Group for
announcements of homebrew competitions,
as well as the results of those
competitions. At the present time its
pretty anemic.
Sure, its a duplicate of anything
announced here, but free publicity
is free publicity.
If you feel like announcing your contest
feel free to join!
The url of the group is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/homebrew_contests
Best Wishes,
Robert
=====
Robert Marshall
NNY Brewing Co. (NO, not N. New York, No-Name-Yet!)
[6653.5, 339.5] Apparent Rennerian
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:32:18 -0400
From: puffmail at darksleep.com (Steven J. Owens)
Subject: Inline Water Heaters
Hi guys,
This is an odd question, but bear with me... we go camping for
two weeks every year (Pennsic). Calling it "camping" is a bit
inaccurate... it's more like a two-week party in the woods. I know a
lot of homebrewers who brew up a lot of batches just for this trip.
By camping standards, it tends to be quite luxurious. For the
last ten years or so, people have been bringing their own shower
arrangements, driven off the piped-in water provided on site. For the
last five years or so, RV water heaters for hot showers have been
quite popular, heaters like this:
http://www.bigdiscountrv.com/water_heaters.html
Last year we decided to finally get one for our camp. Most of
the water heaters people use are much like normal water heaters - they
have a holding tank, heat up the water into the holding tank, when you
shower you draw water off of the holding tank. But we came across
this more expensive, on-demand Paloma water heater:
http://www.globaltownewarehouse.com/HomeProducts/paloma/palomachart.htm
It costs about twice what the other model costs. I tend to like
the idea of on-demand systems, for all sorts of reasons, but the extra
$200 for a gadget I'll use 2 weeks out of the year is a big down side.
The the thought occurred to me; I've been wanting a RIMS for
years. Maybe this puppy could serve double-duty.
What do you folks think about the Paloma's suitability for a RIMS
system? (or conversely, do you have any suggestions for an inline
RIMS heater that could also serve as a portable, propane-driven shower
heater?)
Ideally it'd be rigged for both propane and natural gas, so I
could drive it off propane while camping and off natural gas (like my
furnace, dryer and stove) at home.
Steven J. Owens
puff at darksleep.cmo
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:55:36 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Sun.COM>
Subject: Re Barley Wine
G'day,
>From my limited Barly Wine experience...
if I bottle it it fails to carbonate
much. This is not much of a problem since many of those styles are
not meant to be heavily carbonated. It also takes forever for it to
carbonate.
I have always been Ok, remeber this is pretty strong stuff and the
level of Alcohol may be inhibiting any further yeast activity. Perhaps
some fresh yeast into the bottling program??
Mine have alwasy carbonated up, usually 6 weeks and they are fine.
Corn sugar as
suggested by Zymurgy or malt? I don't know. The argument is that
corn sugar being almost pure glucose does not have the oxygen
requirement that malt sugar does. That is fine. But...
I always use Cane Sugar - considering the amount of extract used in the beer
- 7-8kg per 22 litres, the small addition of 6 grams of sugar has never
affected the profile.
As there is an excess of dextrins if there is any live yeast over time
these will eat away at the dextrins enhancing carbonation.
My last 12 month old BW had a thick creamy head by then...pity I drank
it all ...
What do you suggest, folks. Corn or malt sugar?
John Gubbins
n0vse at idcomm.com
Littleton Co (big forest fire burning now)
Hey know all about that .... hope all is ok.
Rennerian 1117,265.5
What was my Co-ords again Jeff??
Scotty
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:10:37 -0500
From: Ray Daniels <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Prison beers . . .
Seems like there was a thread on prison beers not long ago, but I can't
find it pre-2002 and seems like the search engine is down for 2002. Can
anyone remember when these things were being posted? For that matter,
would anyone like to write a story about this?
Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
ray at aob.org
773-665-1300
Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual
magazines.
For more information, see www.beertown.org
Don't Miss:
Craft Brewers Conference, April 10-13, Cleveland
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:28:09 -0400
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Atlanta Micro's and HB Shops
I guess Steve S and I live on opposite sides of town. I usually hit a place
called Marietta Homebrew, which is in of course Marietta GA. It's up
Interstate 75, near the infamous Big Chicken KFC, rather than up I-85... I
had been going to the two that Steve mentions closed down, and am still
bitter that there is not a decent shop inside the Atlanta perimeter, but it
is nice to have at least one within a 30 minute drive.
As for Micro's, there are three in town. Sweetwater and Dogwood are my two
favorites, and are really neck in neck. Atlanta Brewing / Red Brick Ales is
the third, and I don't find them as interesting.
As for Brewpubs, my favorite is 5 Seasons Brewing. They seem to brew the
widest range of beers, from Maibocks to Milds, and usually have at least two
lagers on at any given time. Second favorite I guess would be Max Lager's,
which is in downtown.
I hope all this helps. There is more info available at
www.beerinfo.com/atlbeer
Mark Nelson
Atlanta
PS. What is the price of whales these days? :-) "With the warm summer
days here suddenly a nice trip over to the Price of Whales" It should be
the Prince of Wales, of course.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:40:28 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
> > I'm looking for good homebrew supply stores in the Atlanta metro area?
> > Also, which microbreweries in this area should I visit?
> If you can call it microbrew Gordon Biersch isn't too horrible. The
> meirscham (sp?) is tasty if a little thin on body. Hops carries some
> intresting on-site brews but they serve the stuff so cold any flavor it
> might have had is frozen stiff. I hear Max Lagers is good but i've not
> been.
Typically, when I've visited Atlanta in the past, there were two places I've
gone to: Max Lagers and Summitt Tavern (the former Taco Mac).
If you are looking for beer variety (but not a microbrew), Summitt is pretty
good. The food selection is nice and there are (at least where I go) 100
odd-ish tap selections to choose from. Sadly, Georgia's 6% alcohol law
limits you -- some of the interesting beers you can get in Florida are not
found here. http://www.summits-online.com/
Max Lagers has a limited menu but has some very good brews. I much prefer
this place to Gordon Biersch. Max Lagers is quieter, and the food at Gordon
Biersch is mediocre IMHO.
Atlanta's major microbrew-in-bottles is Sweetwater. They do brew some good
stuff, notably for my tastes the 420 Pale Ale and Sweet Georgia Brown.
http://www.sweetwaterbrew.com/Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:44:06 -0400
From: "Moyer, Douglas (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com>
Subject: Mango wit - suggestions?
Fruity brewers,
On Sunday, I brewed 11.5 gallons (US) of wit. It is currently fermenting
happily in two 6.5 gallon carboys. I would like to take half of the batch
(one of the carboys) and make a mango wit. I remember the Baron's national
nemesis brewed one once. Graham, any suggestions? Anyone else with
experience? I want it to be subtle, but definitely mango.
I suppose that I will need to switch to a bucket for the secondary so I can
deal with the fruit bits. (I've never used fruit before.) I could cut up the
mangoes and freeze them to help break the cell walls. How much fruit should
I use for 5.75 gallons of beer? How long should the beer sit on the fruit?
Any other concerns? Any comments?
Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA
[394.9, 147.9] Apparent Rennerian
Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcityReturn to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:06:47 +0200
From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: Re: High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36
Jeff Renner replied on my request for more information about High Pressure
Lager Yeast L 36:
> I know that 4-5 years ago Dan McConnell here in Ann Arbor had such a
> strain, and Bill Holmes was going to set up a 15 psi pressure valve
> on a Corney to test this yeast, but I'm not sure if he or anyone else
> in AABG did do it. I will check and report back if there were any
> results. I believe that I fermented a lager with it at normal
> pressures and temperatures with unremarkable results - that is,
> normal lager flavor.*
That would be great, Jeff. It is something I would want to try at least one
time.
> I am pretty sure it is a S. cerevisiae strain. I seem to remember
> Dan saying that it was becoming fairly popular with German commercial
> brewers. The reasons would be obvious. However, I am a
> traditionalist, not a commercial brewer, and I prefer the old
> fashioned way of fermenting lagers.
I actually also prefer the traditional ways for fermenting lagers, but as I
stated above, I enjoy experimenting. I can only ferment real lagers during
wintertime due to the required low temperatures. No space for a temp
controlled fermentation chamber or modified chest freezer in my place. So if
this really works, it would enable me to brew an occasional lager during the
summer.
> * - just found my records. I brewed two batches at normal lager
> temperatures with YCKC's L36 high pressure lager yeast in 1997. The
> results were NOT unremarkable in that a CAP I brewed in June, 1997
> and fermented with this yeast at 50F (10C) took Best of Show in the
> 1997 Michigan State Fair.
Sounds promising! Especially if those fine results could also be achieved at
room or basement temperatures.
> BTW, I wonder if with the same "L-36" designation if the YCKC is the
> original US source for this strain. I believe that Dan got it
> directly from Germany, I think from Herr Durst of Durst Malting when
> he was visiting GW Kent.
I would be interested to find out, where to get this strain. Although living
in Germany and having visited many breweries, I have not heard about German
brewers using this strain. Berliner Kindl Brewery (a mega swill producer
here - no remarkable beer except for their Berliner Weisse) ferments their
lagers at 15 deg. C though. Next time I visit them, I will see that I can
have a
talk to one of the guys in the laboratory to find out, which yeast they are
using. It is good yeast. I brewed a couple of fine Vienna style lagers with
it, which turned out very nice.
greetings from Berlin
Gregor
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:25:51 -0500
From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren at trekbike.com>
Subject: Cleaning the taps and lines
I am curious as to how others out there clean
their lines and taps. I have never really done
this and am curious to see if my beers are affected.
My basement stays about 60 degrees and dark
with little moisture. I currently have an
Oatmeal/Coffee Stout and IPA on tap for about a month
and have noticed no change in flavour other than mellowing
or conditioning. What is the recommended time to
clean lines, cleaners, and methods for keg/tap maintenance?
Any and all questions, comments and discussions would be great !
Cheers,
Stefan Berggren
Madison, WI....Where spring has sprung (at least we hope)
and the Maibocks have comeforth to celebrate along with the
Hop Rizomes !!!!
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:13:04 -0400
From: "James Sploonta" <biere_god at hotmail.com>
Subject: Here's a hot one: brewing in the bottle?
Per Klein:
"...This beer seems to continue the brewing process, finishing more
integrated and balanced by the final sip."
I'll leave it at that...
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:09:30 -0500
From: DHinrichs at Quannon.com
Subject: Hops brew pubs
In HOMEBREW Digest #3923 Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net> penned the
following:
>Hops carries some interesting on-site brews but they serve the stuff so
cold any
>flavor it might have had is frozen stiff.
We have two around this area and both have this problem. All beers served so
cold with frozen mugs the beer froze to the sides of a mug, Bleech. The last
time it was January and 15 degrees outside. On my next round I had the
bartender use a mug fresh from the dishwasher and run it under hot water, it
helped a little. For this reason I avoid Hops and have told the staff at the
two I have been to that I will limit my visits because they are clueless.
Fortunately the fine Sherlock's Home's is closer anyway.
Dave in Minnetonka, MN
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:31:20 -0500
From: "Larry Bristol" <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: HSA stuff
On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:15:54 -0400, Jim Adwell <jim at jimala.com> wrote:
>A research article published on line by the The Journal of the American
>Society of Brewing Chemists (http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/Journal/):
>
>Nonoxidative Mechanism for Development of trans-2-Nonenal in Beer. by G.
>Lermusieau, S. Noel, C. Liegeois, and S. Collin
>
>http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/Journal/abstracts/search/1999/0204-05a.htm
Thanks, Jim! This is an excellent article that certainly indicates
there is more of a relation between oxidation of the mash and beer
staling than I had expected. As I previously stated, I am not a
technical brewer, but that does not mean that I cannot read and (to
some degree) understand technical brewing material. To me, the most
significant statement in the article is the section titled "Influence
of the Brewing Process", and I quote:
"We logically detect higher nonenal potentials when oxidation occurs
during mashing (higher lipoxygenasic activity) or when the hot break is
insufficiently eliminated (slight nonenal potential decrease) (Table
III). Moreover, the nonenal potential of the wort is clearly related to
staling of the flavor of the corresponding beers, confirming that
flavor stability is not related to beer packaging but to wort
preparation."
There is not much ambiguity to this statement, especially the second
sentence. The purpose of the experiment was to determine if oxygen
introduced when the beer is packaged is a significant cause of staling.
They conclusively proved that it is not. Drawing any other
conclusions from the article is risky.
Now all that being said, I am not exactly sure what "higher
lipoxygenasic activity" means, but I will certainly try to reduce that
in future! <grin> [Actually, folks, it simply means an increased
oxidation of fat and fatty compounds, so there!] But more importantly,
what is unclear is what this might mean to me as a homebrewer. Let us
look at the information in more detail.
In the experiment cited in the article, the control batch had 4 liters
of CO2 bubbled through the mash during the first 15 minutes. The test
batches had 4 liters of O2 bubbled through the mash during the first 15
minutes. Care was taken to prevent the introduction of oxygen during
subsequent processing. Not too surprisingly, the levels of nonenal
potential were significantly larger in the test batches than in the
control, all the way from the boil to the end of the aging process.
<TONGUE LOCATION=CHEEK> Therefore, I can with all confidence recommend
that homebrewers NOT bubble O2 through the mash! You can quote me on
this. I stand firmly behind this statement. It should be safe to
bubble CO2 through the mash, but unless you are willing to sparge and
boil in an atmosphere of CO2, it is possibly not worth your effort.
OTOH, the article proves that you no longer have to be concerned with
oxidation when the beer is bottled or kegged. So quit purging the
bottles and kegs with CO2, and splash the beer around all you want.
</TONGUE>
Now, I am not saying that bubbling this much oxygen through the mash
might cause cancer in laboratory rats, but I defy a homebrewer to
dissolve that much oxygen into the mash by stirring, pouring, splashing
around violently while swimming in the hot wort, or any of the things
normally associated with creation of HSA. As the information provided
by "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> shows, the amount of
oxygen that can be dissolved in water significantly decreases as the
temperature rises. You simply cannot get that much oxygen into the hot
wort using ordinary means.
I think that it is time someone pointed out a fact that apparently is
not obvious: Aeration is *NOT* the same as oxidation (although there
is a relationship between them). Aeration is the process of exposing
to air, or causing air to circulate through. It is a physical process.
Oxidation (the opposite of reduction) is "the process of increasing
the positive valence or of decreasing the negative valence of an
element or ion" [New World Dictionary of the American Language]. It is
a chemical process. (Strangely, oxidation does not require any oxygen
to be present at all, as reaction with other elements/ions can increase
positive valence just as well as oxygen. Just a little bit of trivia
you can use to win a bar bet.)
So what is a mother to do? Well, one possible answer is staring us
right in the face. There is a very significant phrase in the quote
from the article that is almost invisible, and I draw a VERY BIG
implication from it: "... or when the hot break is insufficiently
eliminated ...". The author shrugs this off with the parenthetical
comment that there is a "slight nonenal potential decrease".
I can only assume that this factor is largely ignored because of the
purpose of the study is not to examine hot break. The data given,
however, does not support this comment at all, especially under
conditions of natural aging! The nonenal potential of wort that has a
"bad" hot break (not defined in the article) is about 50% higher than
that with a "good" hot break (again, not defined) before the boil,
before fermentation, and after accelerated aging (five days at 40C -
where have I heard this before?). It could be argued that 50% is a
"slight" difference, I suppose. But after NATURAL aging (3 months at
room temperature), the nonenal potential of the wort with the "bad" hot
break is suddenly over 2 1/2 times higher than the wort with the "good"
hot break! I fail to see how anyone could conclude 250% is a "slight"
decrease. There is no data to indicate what happens if the beer is
stored under more favorable conditions.
WHOA! Hot break removal --- now THERE is something I can get my hands
around! I conclude that the greater danger to the homebrewer is not
from HSA, but from a lack of adequate hot break removal (except, of
course, for those of you who happen to age your homebrew at 40C). From
now on, I am going to be a lot more diligent in regard to hot break
removal. The article contains very useful information, indeed!
And, no, I am still not going to stay awake at night worrying about
HSA. Perhaps I am just trying to justify what I do and observe in
real-life. It seems to me that this is what science is supposed to be
about --- an explanation of what we see around us. Using the
information to make life better is art. Or is it engineering? I
sometimes get those mixed up.
Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX AR=[1093.6,223.2]
http://www.doubleluck.comReturn to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:37:02 -0400
From: "Dennis Waltman" <PDWALTMAN at sablaw.com>
Subject: Atlanta brews
One extra addition. Its not a microbrewery
, nor just a bar, is a place called The New
American Shakespeare Tavern. Its really a Playhouse
with English pub-American Style before the play
and during intermission.
http://www.shakespearetavern.com/
I've had very nice draft Guinness there (they
take the extra time with Guinness), and they also
have Tenants on draft along with other entries,
and a variety of bottled beers aimed at English
styles (they have also Rogue's Shakespeare Stout,
and they have at least a couple American Megabrews).
English Pub type food with American entries
(a real nice black bean chili) Then around 7:30ish
the food/drink closes down and then the play
starts on the stage. Usually Shakespeare, sometimes
other playwrights (Miller, Marlowe come to mind),
and quite good.
Nothing like drinking your pint of Guinness while
the flashing swordplay of Romero and Juliet goes on
3-20 feet in front of your nose (hopefully the actors
did not drink much before the show). If you are in Atlanta
when there is a play on, I'd recommend it; and not
only for the beer and food.
Othello is going on now, and Comedy of Errors
I have no affiliation with them except
I drink a lot of their beer, eat a lot of their food,
nibble on their spicy peanuts and enjoy the play.
Dennis Waltman
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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:53:38 -0400
From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com>
Subject: Sunshine Challenge Competition - Top Ten Reasons
You are invited to the Sunshine Challenge XIII in Orlando Florida May
17-19. We need entries, attendees and judges. For all information and
forms go to http://www.cfhb.org/
Here are the top ten reasons to participate:
1. It's the largest club competition east of Texas and arguably the most
fun.
2. It's being held just across the street from Universal Studios, which
is the best theme park on the planet! Bring the wife and kids and they
will appreciate your hobby for once.
3. Orlando's tourism industry has been hit hard since 9/11 and they're
practically giving the place away (special room rates of $79 if you book
before May 1).
4. Come meet and get to know the creative genius of Randy Mosher.
5. We give out impressive medals for win, place and show in all BJCP
categories and not some cheesy ribbons.
6. There will be a Seminars, Pub Craws, Florida Brewers Guild Reception,
Enlightening Room Craws, "Great Brewing Gadget Extravaganza", BJCP Exam,
Pool Party, Award Ceremony and more.
7. We appreciate out-of-town brewers and prove it by mailing out the
judge sheets and medals within two days (or hand them to you there if
you attend)!!!
8. We have the best damn homebrewed band in the world, "Barley Wine"
(these guys are so good they could get a record deal if they would only
change their name to something cool like, "The Phenolics").
9. Watch other clubs mount vicious attacks to wrestle the coveted
"Sunshine Cup" from the Central Florida Home Brewers club as they
desperately cling to their 13-year winning streak.
10. It's an MCAB Qualifying event.
-
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:12:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Koehler
Brewers:
I cannot give you any advice about brewing an
original Koehler.
But I can tell you some stories! Thanks Jeff for
the official history.
Now the personal history. I have lived in Virginia
for 30 years, but my parents and most of my relatives
are from Erie, Pa. Many still live there ('dreary
Erie, mistake of the lakes'). When I was 12-15 years
old, during the summer my parents would send me from
Washington DC, where we lived, to Erie to spend time
with my grandparents and uncles. I always had a great
time spending part of the summer with my relatives,
going to the beach (at the Peninsula), etc.
One of my uncles was between marriages, so he would
drive me around in his convertible, when he was off
work. He would take me to the Koehler brewery on
upper State St., and he would hammer down several
brews with the workers there (he knew a lot of them).
They would give the little kid a taste. It was
forbidden fruit, and I loved it! But now I cannot
tell you how it tasted! I was fascinated with the
smells, the big equipment, the processes, the sounds,
everything. I remember the brewery workers were very
proud to show off their brewing equipment.
My grandmother hated the smell of the brewery. It
had a strange, heavy, sweet, stinky aroma that
permeated a 6-8 block radius around the brewery. On
still summer days it was really pungent!
I remember the ads from the early-mid 1960s: "pour
a Koehler Collar!"
The old brewery still stands. I am told by my
uncles that the city is trying to get a grant to rehab
it, and turn it into trendy shops and art galleries.
I told my uncle to buy for me the keystone over the
brewery entrance if they ever decide to tear the
building down. It is a large eagle emblem of the
Koehler brewery. Damn thing is huge, probably weighs
a ton or more, but it would look great in my yard!
I thought Heilmann, not Schmidt, bought the brewery
in the early 1970s during the brewery consolidations,
then they closed it.
Thanks for the memories!
Paul Mahoney
Roanoke, Va.
Star City Brewers Guild
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:14:43 -0500
From: "Bates, Floyd G" <BatesFG at bp.com>
Subject: Diacetyl Please
Please don't beat me up too much for this question.
How would I get diacetyl to form in a beer such as a Salvator Dopplebock
clone? I have tried Irish Ale yeasts with very little diacetyl formation.
I read somewhere that a brewery aerates the wort during primary fermentation
to achieve the butterscotch flavor. Any ideas from the collective?
Thanks in advance.
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