Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Damon
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6416
Loc: St. Louis area

Originally Posted By: carey

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.

Sample libraries are already vast and growing. By the time acoustic pianos have died, sampling them will no longer be necessary and people will be identifying more with the sample than the original. I imagine that a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to build a (then extinct) acoustic piano to marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were.

I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.

Sample libraries are already vast and growing. By the time acoustic pianos have died, sampling them will no longer be necessary and people will be identifying more with the sample than the original. I imagine that a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to build a (then extinct) acoustic piano to marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were.

The sad part of all this discussion is that, aside from acoustic pianos, we will be replicating our food and other naturally derived items. "They" are already growing hamburger in a petri dish. I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. I imagine that in a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to have real sex, and marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were, that is if, unlike the Shakers, we are still around.

I think there are already some concert pianists around who would say that a high-end digital is preferable to a vertical - any vertical, according to one well-known pianist I spoke to, after a masterclass that I attended this afternoon.

One of the biggest drawbacks with most digitals are their consistent sound - too consistent. If you strike a chord with the same force several times without pedal you can easily get exactly the same sound, which is next to impossible on an acoustic, due to the 'Butterfly Effect'. That's because you're triggering the same velocity level on the DP, which any good pianist can do. The sheer consistency really does become boring in a way acoustics can never be, and contributes to the sterile effect when you try to play expressively, especially in slow music. And slow sustained music is also where sampled DPs show up their flaws: the decay sounds artificial, because it's looped and stretched: no vibrating string decays like that. (In rapidly flowing music like, say, Chopin's Op.10/2, sampled DPs can sound very convincing).

And that's where modeling makes all the difference, which I believe is why it will be the future of digital pianos - if only all the big DP manufacturers get in on the act, to spur each other on. Another advantage of modeling is that it's easy to tweak so many parameters like level of sustain, tone color, various resonances, pedal effects etc - because the sounds are generated from scratch, not already pre-recorded: there's only so much you can do to pre-recorded piano sounds before they become unacceptably synthetic-sounding.

BTW, anyone who isn't familiar with looping and stretching on DP sounds might want to drop in on the Digital Pianos forum and look at the long-standing 'DPBSD Project' thread (DP bullsh*t detector - you get the idea ) where 'dewster' does tests on the sound samples from several DPs........

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Yeah, I have gotten a lot of good info at the DP forum. Also, if anyone in this thread has only ever played DPs in the class of Yamaha's Arius and the like, try to play an Avant Grand if you have the chance, it's pretty amazing! No headphones, no recordings, you have to play it yourself to understand what they've done.

That said, I will always prefer organic, go-out-of-tune-when-it-rains pianos!

Reminds me of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, as well as a Hollywood movie starring Ewan McGregor (? The Island with Scarlett Johansson)......

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

I think there are already some concert pianists around who would say that a high-end digital is preferable to a vertical - any vertical, according to one well-known pianist I spoke to, after a masterclass that I attended this afternoon.

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

Originally Posted By: Hakki

Mark, BTW, did you manage to follow the Poll so far?

How is it going? Relic or not?

Could you post a list of who said what.

I thought of doing a tally, but even if I had the stick-to-it-iveness to go through with it, which I'm not sure I would have I said the heck with it after going back over the first few posts because I wouldn't have known how to score some of them.

My impression is that it's pretty heavily in favor of "not relic," but with a substantial minority saying "relic."

Maybe something like (just making up these numbers) 55% not-relic, 30% relic, 15% "hey that's an interesting question, I can see it either way."

I'm not posting very much on the thread but reading everything and getting a lot out of it. What I'm getting:

-- There are stronger reasons for "never be a relic" than I'd thought.

-- I'm particularly glad to see so many fans and owners of DP's arguing "not relic."

-- Very interesting to see the analogies people are making and how they're being compared to the acoustic-vs.-digital-piano question, especially the harpsichord stuff.

-- Something I hadn't thought of before but what this thread has me thinking....I don't know if anybody said exactly this, but there've been a few posts hovering around it....The DP has been mostly an attempt to mimic the acoustic piano. But, electronic keyboards can do a lot more than that. When I first became aware of the synthesizer, around when Moog first introduced his, I don't think there was any notion that it would mimic the piano; it was a new thing of its own, with new and unique possibilities of its own. The idea wasn't to try to be a piano, but to be all that it could be, which arguably was much more than a piano. (And of course we could say also less, but the "more" is still true.)

Moog didn't invent the synthesizer. What he did was add a piano-type keyboard to it, which made it easier to play and more accessible for more people, and which (I think) led to DP's. The whole tenor of the posts on this thread has me wondering if maybe the future of "DP's" -- DP's per se -- is NOTHING, because electronic keyboards will forget about trying to mimic a piano since it is unnecessarily limiting on what the electronic keyboard can do, and it'll go back to being a syntesizer, only this time it'll be made for the mass market.

Damon
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6416
Loc: St. Louis area

Originally Posted By: Mark_C

because electronic keyboards will forget about trying to mimic a piano because it is unnecessarily limiting on what the electronic keyboard can do, and it's go back to being a syntesizer, only this time it'll be made for the mass market.

Many if not most DP's mimic multiple instruments. The one that I use for gigs is a full-blown synthesizer that mimics nearly everything.

... I believe if it weren't for rich people that like the snob appeal of a grand piano as furniture, they would already be gone....maybe.

At first I was aghast that anyone would write such a thing on this forum.

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.

So, when the piano becomes a relic, there will be no more piano recitals. Or people are going to travel and pay money to hear some virtuoso evoke the recorded sounds of an obsolete instrument?Count me out.

I had to remind myself what the heck an “acoustic piano” was ... (in the broad light of day) and looked up Wikipedia ... to discover that my Grotrian Steinweg (what a treasure) apparently is one of same ... being classified as “upright” by the blokes who know all about it.

Quite agree with BruceD who thinks that he will be long since gone before acoustic pianos bite the dust ... and I'm older than him but not dead yet.

... I believe if it weren't for rich people that like the snob appeal of a grand piano as furniture, they would already be gone....maybe.

At first I was aghast that anyone would write such a thing on this forum.

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.

I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks and disklaviers are getting more popular... They also want a piano that is a known brand (which around here means Yamaha or Steinway if there's a lot to spend), even if they could have good quality with less money.

I guess people who have money but are not serious about piano playing are a good thing, if they keep the acoustic piano industry alive as a whole, maybe giving more options to those of us who really want an instrument instead of furniture.

EDIT:Some of you probably don't know how lucky you are...the market for quality used grands around here is almost non-existent...I would actually prefer an older instrument, but they are really difficult to find. The piano dealer had one small Kawai and one (white) Yamaha when I went there. Not much private market either.

The Finnish chappie (who obviously values a quality piano) might like to know that age has little to do with good sound ... as long as the piano has been played frequently over it’s lifetime ...My Grotrian Steinweg piano was built in 1912 in Germany ... and after being reconditioned recently is sound as a bell.

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

Originally Posted By: outo

....Some of you probably don't know how lucky you are...the market for quality used grands around here is almost non-existent...I would actually prefer an older instrument, but they are really difficult to find....

I don't know if we are. In my experience they're hard to find anywhere, if we're talking about one that's well-maintained and in good shape and (if we're picky) that we really like. I prefer them too, but only once in my several piano shoppings did I find one that was suitable.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P

This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?

I agree 100%!

My dream is to own a fortepiano one day, because they have so much more appealing sound than the modern monsters...

A fortepiano or a chamber music inclined grand piano without the MODERN, SPACE AGE, FILL THE D**N AUDITORIUM SHOUTING TENDENCIES would be a welcome addition indeed.

Recently attended a three hour Haydn recital of Ronald Brautigam on a fortepiano and it was already plenty loud enough for the mid-sized Muziektheater aan het IJ...and this instrument would have been much preferable to listen to in my living room than my Kawai grand...(although 3 hours of Haydn sonates is enough on any instrument).

Ideally, one should own a fortepiano for Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert; and Pleyel and Erard grands for Chopin and early Liszt. That would spare our ears from the excess loudness of modern grands which should be reserved for later Liszt, Brahms and beyond....

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

So, when the piano becomes a relic, there will be no more piano recitals. Or people are going to travel and pay money to hear some virtuoso evoke the recorded sounds of an obsolete instrument?

I think the few people who will be interested in the old classical music for piano a few centuries from now (assuming for the sake of argument that there are any people left) will just listen to the old recordings and be satisfied with that. Sure, there may possibly be a few specialists who still play, and a few builders who make and repair instruments.

At present, all signs seem to point to people in the future relying exclusively on electronics for their sounds. And because of that, the interest in trying to create fake pianos via electronics will die out, because it's inherently pretty silly. It's silly in the same way that trying to make plastic look like wood is silly. Or trying to make movies look like stage dramas is silly. Or trying to make tofu pass as a hamburger is silly. It's all about being bogus, and while such things may serve a transitional purpose, even for a few generations, they typically do not survive.

But you never know...things always seem to take weirdly unpredictable turns.

The writing is already on the wall - the vast majority of people now are passive 'participants' (recipients) in music - they just listen to music on their iPods or computers, and can't play any instrument or sing.

Or they pride themselves in 'creating' and mixing playlists and call it a 'performance'. Anything that requires long effort over many years - learning classical piano for instance - is not worth the hassle. It's the age of instant gratification, reality TV shows, etc.

Just get a keyboard, press a button for the built-in rhythms and automatic chords, play a one-finger tune and you've got everything, with minimal effort.....

An acoustic piano doesn't allow you to do that. How much longer will it survive? If it hadn't been for East Asians taking up playing the piano in their millions, will there still be an acoustic piano industry?

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

As someone who has played and used digital pianos professionally ever since the early Kurtzweil (still a great piano sound!) in 1988 (actually far earlier with the first Emu sampler) up until the latest Roland V-piano and Nord's (and the ubiquitous collection of software library's, I can say, with utmost surety, that in no way will digital ever catch up with acoustic!

Digitals are great for practice at home late at night, or other situations where neighbourly concerns are paramount. They are great when played in a heavier (and there's nothing wrong with the gravity here in Sweden) orchestral situation; fusion, rock, blues, etc. Even playing classical chamber music in venues that don't have a piano a digital can suffice (I use a Roland Fp-7; ok sound, ok built-in speakers).

But no way will a heap of bytes put into plastic ever compete with a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: outo

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.

You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo

I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...

There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.

...... a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.

Er....are you sure about all that? (Maybe for some pianos and some brands....)

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.

You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo

I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...

There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.

First of all, I never wrote your first quote. Secondly I was merely surprised about the motives of some people buying musical instruments that are costly and take a lot of space. I did not make any value judgement about their motives, just revealed my own. Personally I would rather buy some art to look at...

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: outo

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Originally Posted By: outo

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.

You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo

I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...

There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.

First of all, I never wrote your first quote. Secondly I was merely surprised about the motives of some people buying musical instruments that are costly and take a lot of space. I did not make any value judgement about their motives, just revealed my own. Personally I would rather buy some art to look at...

Sorry for my confusion. I mistakenly thought you had written part of the post you quoted.

I have seen too often people complaining about other people's motives for buying a piano, that some... especially "rich" people only buy them as furniture, that these people are somehow undeserving of a piano or that it's terrible that they buy them for the wrong reasons while some serious musicians can't afford a nice grand.