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Westboro Baptist Church

the_patriot2015

Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:58 PM

the_patriot2015

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shiloh, why do you have to be insulting? muster the brain power? really? Steve brings forward a good, solid point. Yes, protesting abortion clinics is a good thing, something we feel strongly about. Westboro, does its protests, because most of the members honestly think theyre doing something right-they feel as strongly about what theyre doing, as what you feel when you protest an abortion clinic.I think the leaders, are up to no good, but I think most of the members, are simply following a lie. Involving the government would be unwise and wrong, and petitioning the government to call them a hate group would be wrong.

Again, I ask, what would Jesus do? you seem to be doing an excellent job of dodging that question. What would Jesus do here?

GoldenEagle

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:16 PM

GoldenEagle

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First late Merry Christmas to all on the thread.

Second, I think we need to all take a step back and evaluate what we're saying here. Take a deep breath. This is a Christian discussion forum. Please remember to respect each other in the love of God. Please remember to debate the subject and not the person. Going forward in this thread posts that are attacks in nature will simply be hidden. Please follow the WCF ToS.

OneLight wrote something I found very helpful and I suggest all on this thread take it to heart.

May I suggest one more thing, which is what I try to do when reviewing threads and posts, and even when I write my own posts.

Step back and read a post or thread as if it is the first time you are reading it, with no preconceived idea about what you are about to read. If you put yourself in the place of another person, you will learn the skill of truly seeing what others see. The results can lead to taking the time to reword a post to better explain the thoughts you really want to portray, or understanding a post as it was meant to be understood. When viewing words, it is profitable to realize that nobody can read our minds and we cannot read others minds, so our statements must be clear enough to stand on their own.

At the same time, the reader needs to step back and examine what is posted without a knee-jerk reaction. Many posts have been seen as an attack when they are not, others may read into a post something that is not there, while some leave important information out, focusing only on one point when the whole explanation lies within the full post.

Steve_S

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:21 PM

Do you think it should be illegal to picket abortion clinics? Using your line of reasoning it's harassment to picket people you disagree with and to do so in a disparaging fashion.

Two things:

1. I did not say that it is harrassment to picket people you disagree with. What the WBC is doing is not merely picketing to make their views known. I believe what they are doing is harrassment. It is not a simple matter of expressing a differing point of view. You're not responding to what I say and instead choose to misrepresent my position and assign values to my responses that I did not intend. That in my opinion is a very dishonest tactic. I expected more from you.

2. I would not be in favior of picketing abortion clinics IF the picketers were holding up signs claiming that "God hates abortion doctors," or "God hates women who abort" or so forth. I would not be in favior of people standing in front of abortion clinics screaming at the girls and telling them they were gonig to hell because God hates them. Most of the time, protesters at abortion clinics are pleading with girls to reconsider their decision and try to find a way to save their babies. If fact, quite often they offer the girls help and counseling and try to persuade them to choose adoption or something else. The protesters at abortion clinics cannot be realistically compared to the WBC by any stretch of the imagination.

I believe that it's a solid line of reasoning to assume that those in certain segments, primarily the secular left in the united states, would see picketing an abortion clinic and pleading with them to reconsider their decision as a violation of that person's rights and as harassment. There are already a plethora of court cases challenging laws designed to make women do that very thing (such as laws compelling women to view an ultrasound before they can have an abortion). My main point here is that it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that those people on the secular left would attempt to draw a constitutional line between those at Westboro and people picketing abortion clinics. I don't have faith in the atheist to use sound reason when judging what is and what isn't reasonable protest. Earlier you said a little common sense goes a long way. I quite simply don't trust people who advocate for baby murder to exercise common sense in judgement.

shiloh357

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

shiloh, why do you have to be insulting? muster the brain power? really? Steve brings forward a good, solid point.

Well Steve needs to stop misrepresenting what I said. He's done it twice now. And no, the abortion clinic thing is not a solid point at all.

Yes, protesting abortion clinics is a good thing, something we feel strongly about. Westboro, does its protests, because most of the members honestly think theyre doing something right-they feel as strongly about what theyre doing, as what you feel when you protest an abortion clinic.I think the leaders, are up to no good, but I think most of the members, are simply following a lie. Involving the government would be unwise and wrong, and petitioning the government to call them a hate group would be wrong.

But protesting abortion clinics is not a congruant example. Most abortion clinic protesters are there to help and are not spewing the hate that the WBC church is. So it does not help make your argument.

Again, I ask, what would Jesus do? you seem to be doing an excellent job of dodging that question. What would Jesus do here?

I didn't dodge the question at all. I answered it directly if you bother to go back to my posts.

the_patriot2015

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

the_patriot2015

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No you didnt, you said you wernt going to answer any "hypothetical questions" about what Jesus would do. That is an invalid answer, or at least it should be. Asking ourselves what Jesus would do, is a question we all need to ask ourselves.

shiloh357

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

shiloh357

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I believe that it's a solid line of reasoning to assume that those in certain segments, primarily the secular left in the united states, would see picketing an abortion clinic and pleading with them to reconsider their decision as a violation of that person's rights and as harassment.

No, it's not a solid line of reasoning. The difference is that abortion proponents have to create a perception of harrassment, whereas with the WBC, no "perception" is necessary. There is no dispute over the actions of WBC across the board whether one is a Christian or not. Those on the secular left have an ulterior motive in that every girl who is persuaded not to go through with the abortion is another nail in the abortion industry's coffin. They need the $$$ generated from the abortion procedure. They have to manufacture a perception that isn't supported by reality and can often be proven not to be the case.

The comparison between those who picket abortion clinics and the WBC is a horrible and incongruant comparison. They do not even come close by comparison, particularly in the area of moralilty. The morality of both are completely different. It's like comparing the morality of the arsonist with the fire fighter. One is rooted in pure, unmitigated hate, and the other is redemptively motivated. Abortion clinc protesters are motivated by love for the unborn and love for the girl who thinks she is out of options and is both ashamed and frightened. You simply cannot compare an abortion clinic protestor with the virulent hatred of the WBC.

There are already a plethora of court cases challenging laws designed to make women do that very thing (such as laws compelling women to view an ultrasound before they can have an abortion). My main point here is that it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that those people on the secular left would attempt to draw a constitutional line between those at Westboro and people picketing abortion clinics. I don't have faith in the atheist to use sound reason when judging what is and what isn't reasonable protest. Earlier you said a little common sense goes a long way. I quite simply don't trust people who advocate for baby murder to exercise common sense in judgement.

The problem is that they aren't making those claims. So far, they have demonstrated an ability to divorce the WBC from genuine Christianity. So far, no abortion proponent has ever drawn a line connecting the ideaology of the WBC with the pro-life movement or with those who stand in front of abortion clinics. Probably because they can't. That is not to say they won't, but so far, people have been standing in front of abortion clinics for years and the WBC has been at their protesting for years, and no one in the secular media has ever tried to connect the two.

shiloh357

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:16 PM

shiloh357

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No you didnt, you said you wernt going to answer any "hypothetical questions" about what Jesus would do. That is an invalid answer, or at least it should be. Asking ourselves what Jesus would do, is a question we all need to ask ourselves.

Your question was, would Jesus sign the petition or find a way to minister to the WBC. What I said was that I was not going answer a hypothetical question about what Jesus would do, because I don't know if He would sign the petition or not. I went on to say that I did not think it was an either/or thing. I don't think signing the petition and ministering to the WBC are mutually exclusive concepts. it is not either/or; it is both/and.

the_patriot2015

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

the_patriot2015

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If you ask me, I don't think Jesus would sit there and petition the government, to call them a hate group. Now, Biblically, He was known for calling people on what they were-He called the sadduccees and pharisees a pit of vipers, but notice, He did it to their face, He didn't go to the government, and say "do something about it" In fact, lets look at what the Bible says about this.

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
how is name calling, even government sanctified name calling, loving?

Romans 12:19-21 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written "vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord" to the contrary "if your enemy is hungry, feed him, if he is thirsty, give him something to drink, for by doing so you will heap burning coals on his head" Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
So, instead of ministering to them, were signing a petition, asking the government to call them a hate group. Which will only encourage them, and then what? the logical next step is government intervention, and then spreading to other things. Just because YOU see a difference between WBO and your church, doesnt mean the government does. Instead, minister to them, and trust God will take care of it.

In the Bible, if you notice, EVERY time a sinful church is addressed, it is the church that is addressed directly by the person doing the rebuking, not through a third party, not from the government. Jesus called the religious leaders into play face to face, Paul wrote to the churches who were sinning. And nowhere, does the apostle Paul, call them a hate group.

Is what westboro doing wrong? yes. its wrong. but its their right to do so-we live in, at least what we want to believe, is a free nation. We cant sit here, and tell someone that they dont have the right to do this, or that theyre a hate group for it, and expect everyone else to respect our freedom to worship in the way we choose. Right or wrong, it wont work that way-once we start the labeling game, it will come back and bite us.

Butero

Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:37 AM

Do you think it should be illegal to picket abortion clinics? Using your line of reasoning it's harassment to picket people you disagree with and to do so in a disparaging fashion.

Two things:

1. I did not say that it is harrassment to picket people you disagree with. What the WBC is doing is not merely picketing to make their views known. I believe what they are doing is harrassment. It is not a simple matter of expressing a differing point of view. You're not responding to what I say and instead choose to misrepresent my position and assign values to my responses that I did not intend. That in my opinion is a very dishonest tactic. I expected more from you.

2. I would not be in favior of picketing abortion clinics IF the picketers were holding up signs claiming that "God hates abortion doctors," or "God hates women who abort" or so forth. I would not be in favior of people standing in front of abortion clinics screaming at the girls and telling them they were gonig to hell because God hates them. Most of the time, protesters at abortion clinics are pleading with girls to reconsider their decision and try to find a way to save their babies. If fact, quite often they offer the girls help and counseling and try to persuade them to choose adoption or something else. The protesters at abortion clinics cannot be realistically compared to the WBC by any stretch of the imagination.

This is interesting to me. Why should you or anyone else be able to tell protestors what they can or cannot say at a protest? I don't see holding up signs saying "God Hates Abortion Clinic Doctors," and "God Hates Women Who Abort" as the most useful way of changing minds, but I believe protestors have the right to do that if they wish. I also believe that if we were truly following the Constitution, individual states would have the right to completely shut down the abortion clinics.

We are living in what Mike Church would call "a post-Constitutional" America. We are not following the Constitution according to original intent. If we were, the federal government would have very little power over the states, and the states would be able to do almost anything they desire. Under our current system, where the federal government reigns supreme over the states, in clear violation of the 10Th Amendment might I add, we have the right to protest, even if those protests are obnoxious. They do allow buffer zones, but that is it. Like it or not, that is how we operate at this time. We also have freedom of religion, that allows for groups like Westboro Baptist Church to exist. BTW, as bad as they are, I don't think they are nearly the threat mosques pose, and Muslims are free to promote their anti-America, anti-Israel agenda all over the country in the name of freedom of religion. These people will rise up one day, and attack the very nation that gave them the freedom to exist. If it were up to me, the states would be free to shut down all the mosques and Kansas could decide on Westboro Baptist Church, but again, that is not how things work in America today.

shiloh357

Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:03 PM

shiloh357

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If you ask me, I don't think Jesus would sit there and petition the government, to call them a hate group. Now, Biblically, He was known for calling people on what they were-He called the sadduccees and pharisees a pit of vipers, but notice, He did it to their face, He didn't go to the government, and say "do something about it" In fact, lets look at what the Bible says about this.

Of course He went to the government. They were the governing body called the Sanhedrin. He called the governing body of lawmakers and judges far worse things than a hate group.

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.how is name calling, even government sanctified name calling, loving?

I haven't called anyone any names. I am simply more honest than you would like for me to be. Jesus called the governing leaders things that would get Him put on mod review on WBs. You should read your Bible a little closer. He didn't operate from your version of "loving."

So, instead of ministering to them, were signing a petition, asking the government to call them a hate group

1. Signing the petition is not mutually exclusive from ministering to them.2. Talking about ministering to the WBC is completely disingenuous.

the_patriot2015

Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:17 PM

the_patriot2015

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first off, your taking what I said out of context. Yes, he went to the sanhedrin, because His problem was with them. He did not go to them to tell them to take care of a problem He had with other people, which is what your doing-your going to the government, to have them "deal" with the problem.

Secondly, I see no difference between calling a group a bunch of "meanie heads" and a "hate group" there isnt. Its both name calling. Period. And its just because you dont like what theyre doing. They have the same freedom of speech and religion, and the same right to protest that you do. Is it dispicaple? yes, but its still their right to do so. and calling them a "hate group" wont change that. its still name calling, no matter what you call it.

Thirdly, Jesus never, ever went to someone else, and had them call the sadduccees a brood of vipers, He did it to their face. He never used the government or any third party. So your argument about Jesus calling people what they are is invalid, because He did it to their face-He didnt have the government do it for Him. Jesus fought His own battles, He didnt ask the corrupt government to fight them in His place.