Could you guys document specific cases or point to sources of information?

As a way of example I'd like to discuss a couple of hypothetical cases:

If you go on a trip with several people, driving you own car and sharing the gas expenses, can that be considered an enterprise? Do you need to have a professional driver license, etc.? Could your insurance deny coverage because of that?

Some boat owners cover all the expenses of their crew. Could that be considered an unreported paid job? Could the crew claim employee benefits from the skipper?

Thanks

Why compare a sea voyage with a trip in a car? They are two different things. The Road Traffic Act does not apply to ships and the Merchant Shipping Act does not apply to cars.

A specific case? Sure... See below

Quote:

SCINTILLA CHARTERS

Defendant: Francois Haussauer, skipper/owner of Scintilla

Date of Offence: 7th June 2004

Offence: Five charges arising from two voyages; two for not having the appropriate Certificate of Competence to take charge of the yacht; two for not having Load Line Certification for the yacht, and one for breaching a Prohibition Notice.

Details: The charges were brought by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, following complaints received in relation to the illegitimate charter operation.

Mr Francois Haussauer, aged 52, had been commercially operating his home built yacht in the South of France for a niche naturist market. He promoted the charter holiday to the British public via the internet, a Channel 5 film and publicity brochures. He offered `Scintilla’ on a skippered charter basis and took paying passengers to sea without the required certification of a charter vessel.

The court heard how Mr Haussauer failed to comply with the regulations even after numerous attempts by the MCA to educate and inform him of the requirements. `Scintilla’ was chartered with intent despite Mr Haussauer’s knowledge that it would violate the safety regulations.

Penalty: Fined Total £4500 costs £11,000

Re the paying of crews' expenses; we are in the area of tax and employment legislation here. Merchant Shipping Acts differentiate between seamen and passangers. However I doubt if employment, tax and social security legislation would be enforceable here. If someone comes and stays with you in your house for a few months and you give them board and lodgings then this does not mean that (s)he is in your employ even if they do the dishes and other household chores on occasion. Here, normal "land" legislation applies whereas the issue of passangers is in the maritime domain.

Gosh!, sorry for the multiple posts. This is the first time I use this forum and I have completely screwed it...

No, you haven't. Everything is fixable, no worries mate.

Sometimes knowing where a poster comes from helps in answering their questions. I will assume that you are from the US, partly because of the reference to driving and sharing expenses for gas.

Life just isn't so easy that whatever anybody does is okay as long as they want to do it. Civilized countries make sure that people know what they're getting themselves in for. My 14 year old nephew can't work as a forklift operator no matter how much somebody wants to pay him, no matter how much he wants to do it. He's not old enough to know the dangers. He's not old enough, experienced enough, qualified enough, to operate such equipment with a reasonable expectation of safety.

And that issue is at the heart of all the discussions of paying for a berth on a private yacht. The inexperienced person who would like to try sailing, or is looking for a different way of getting home after their backpacking adventure in South America, or Asia, or .... They don't know that this fellow, unlicensed and uninsured to carry passengers, is taking his/her money without being able to provide the protection that paying passengers are entitled to.

Operating a ship or boat in international waters has nothing in common with any other form of transportation wholly within the borders of a single nation, and there are quite different laws and rules governing ocean transportation. However, persons driving a vehicle and transporting persons for hire (limousine drivers, bus drivers, train operators, etc.) do have to have a special license, at least in the US and probably most other developed countries.

25 years ago, if an invited guest on our boat brought a picnic lunch to share with us as we sailed around Boston Harbor, we could have been charged by the US Coast Guard with illegally accepting payment for taking passengers out on our boat without a licensed captain on board. The rules have been relaxed since then, but it is still illegal for an unlicensed operator of a vessel to accept payment from passengers on the boat outside of shared expenses such as food and/or fuel. And that is, in one way or another, similar in many countries, not to mention laws on the high seas. Sharing expenses means just that - expenses of the trip are shared equally among the group on the boat. The owner can't say "each person will pay me $x.xx which I will call sharing expenses."

In the US, and most other countries, commercial operation of a vessel or other form of transportation, requires specific insurance protecting passengers and specific licensing. Without the insurance, neither the owner of the vessel nor the passengers are adequately protected.

Finally, as you will note from my posts, I find the unlicensed owner of a boat seeking to make money from people who wish to sail, but do it on the cheap by calling it "crewing" and "sharing expenses" when it's none of that to be dishonest and dangerous. People who want to sail and are willing to work at it deserve the protection that the laws provide.

It costs a lot to own, operate, and properly maintain a cruising sailboat. The person who bought and launched that sailboat chose his lifestyle and his costs. If that person wants to supplement his income by asking people to pay to sail with him on his boat he should get the proper license, obtain the appropriate insurance, and be honest that he is charging people for the privilege of making his sailing lifestyle cheaper and easier. That person should also pay for a proper advertisement, not argue that he deserves to get his advertising for free because he's really not making a profit on the venture.

__________________In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

Well for $120 a day you can buy a lot of eats and thats a fact! Feed a whole crew like kings no lie that would. The truth is that one was just a scam to try and get someone to charter the boat without calling it charter. I think that much is pretty clear to us all. What would be nice would be a set of "shudder" guidelines we all could follow to be fair and yet really cover the expenses of having new often green crew who do not know the ropes and therefore do tend to cause more wear and tear on the boat. And lost sleep for the skipper, like anyone cares about that.

On Vega we have a policy where bye new crew pay "expenses" to the tune of around 10-15 $ per day for the first voyage. If they fit in that gets dropped for any voyages after that. In fact hang around long enough and you even start collecting a modest salary. Maybe thats why our "youngest" crew member has been with us for over 2.5 years now.

10-15 per day will buy a lot of provisions, or at least used to a few months ago, but: 1. We try to eat well - a well fed crew don't tend to make the skipper walk the plank. 2. Its a bit of an initiation right - everyones done it and now the gang is munching your contribution in the form of Pringles at 3AM when its dead calm. and last but not least its just plain fair to cover you own till you know how things really do work enough to actually be useful when it comes on to blow a hullie at 3AM and all's standing (usually because some green crew wasn't paying attention to those fluffy things up in the sky). OK so traditional sailing vessels, and there crews, are a bit weird but my point is why can't we set our own standard of what's fair and use that as a guideline for others who come along and haven't a clue? What would be a fair contribution? How could that be calculated in a fair manner?

I would think 120 is a bit much. I'm doing a 6 day live aboard class. The cost is 175 a day. It's $2100 for six days sail training for me and the wife. It will be only the instructor and us aboard so the training should be good. 13 meals are included. We will have to eat out 3 night. It also covers the testing and books for ASA-101,103, and 104.

175 person/day x 6 X 2 = 2100 and short answer yes. We will be able to bare boat charter up to a 50ft boat in coastal waters with the certs we are getting. The cost is for the one on two instruction by a certified instructor.

Hi, I would like to know who puts the limits on just food expenses? It would seem fair to me that crew should be willing to share fuel costs, port entry costs and if agreed to marina or mooring costs. I am presently in Ecuador and will be heading to the Galapagos where there is agent fees, $100 per crew park fees, should this be the Captains burden. I just came from Coco's Island where there is a $25 a day boat fee plus $25 per person fee, what about that. I would expect that crew should be willing to contribute to these fees as well as help on daily maintenance. I would not expect for crew to help pay for parts or professional services rendered for repairs. I eagerly await your input. Bob S/V Taisho

This is not a new debate. It has been discussed at length as you will see if you do a simple search regarding this topic. As to whom it is who puts a limit expenses, the simple answer is the master and the crew. One can only eat a certain amount of food per day. If you choose to eat caviar then it is only fair that you should pay for that however there is a an average of what normal living on board costs.

As far as sharing other costs are concerned, i.e. costs for the vessel's account, it is irrelevant what your opinion on the matter is as it is illegal to do this. Again, if you look at previous posts, you will find that the authorities in the UK and France are already taking yacht owners to task for this.

As for these forums, this issue has been well debated. We do not tolerate advertisements for crew if they are expected to pay for anything above and beyond their keep. The simple answer is that if you do not like this then look for your crew elsewhere. In saying this I am not trying to be rude but pointing put the rules of this forum.

Well Nausikaa, You seem to miss my point. What France and England does could matter less to me as mine is an American boat. As JeanneP stated it acceptable by the US Cost Guard for the crew to share in both FOOD AND FUEL costs. So maybe this forum should get in step with US law.

Well Nausikaa, You seem to miss my point. What France and England does could matter less to me as mine is an American boat. As JeanneP stated it acceptable by the US Cost Guard for the crew to share in both FOOD AND FUEL costs. So maybe this forum should get in step with US law.

i seriously think you seem to miss the point nausikaa was trying to make while still being politically correct. if you dont like it....leave . we promise not to hold u back.

Well Nausikaa, You seem to miss my point. What France and England does could matter less to me as mine is an American boat. As JeanneP stated it acceptable by the US Cost Guard for the crew to share in both FOOD AND FUEL costs. So maybe this forum should get in step with US law.

Why, pray tell, should this forum get in step with US law? *Just because you are a Canadian/mexican/US/etc., etc. (pick another American country to fill in "etc.") does not mean that this forum is American. *And the laws for the various countries in the Americas differ widely anyway, as do the laws of all the other countries represented by the members of this forum.* And joining a boat in Panama for a Pacific crossing has nothing to do with the laws of any of the countries represented on the boat, anyway. *Think. *

So. *Let's start over.

This forum provides a free crewfinder. *For any nationality. *For any flagged vessel, whatever its nationality. *We do not charge crew or skippers to post their "ads". *Why should someone who wishes to make a profit, or perhaps just reduce their own operating costs of a boat, get a free ad to find someone to help subsidize his lifestyle?*

Costs that are specific to the individual people on the boat should be considered acceptable costs. *In other words, just as cinemas charge admission per person, so do some countries/regions, such as Cocos Island. *However, the boat cost is the skipper's. *After all, if the skipper did not have crew with him, he'd have to pay the boat fee or entry fee anyway. *The crew should not be working for free as well as paying to reduce the skipper's costs. *Pure and simple. *I don't think that crew should pay for fuel, or marinas, or Panama Canal charges, because it is a cost that the skipper has to pay whether he's alone or has crew. *And that is my take. *Those expenses that the skipper with his boat would have to pay regardless of being alone or with crew are the skipper's alone. *Those fees that are person-specific should be paid by each person. *

How hard is that to understand?

Next. *If a boat owner does not have insurance, he should not be taking on passengers or crew. *If a boat has insurance, but does not have insurance to cover paying guests (in other words, the boat does not have charter insurance), then regardless of any other regulations, the insurer can, with impunity, refuse to pay a claim if the boat owner has taken on paying guests (if they are paying any amount for their passage, they are guests, not crew). *Try to split hairs with the insurance company. *In the long run, the insurance company probably has a greater say in what can and cannot be done than US (or any other government's) law, particularly on the high seas.

So. *To crew. *Ask to read the skipper's insurance (he should have it on his boat, if he doesn't, don't believe whatever he tells you). *If you are being asked to pay more than your personal expenses, or your share of food, consider that if something happens to you, the skipper's insurance might not cover you. *It might not cover him. *Think of consequences. *And don't be a sucker. *If the skipper can't cruise without help from his crew, then what else can't he afford? *Proper maintenance? *

Why would anyone want to pay to work for somebody else? *

I know, this is rather belligerant for me. *Sorry.

__________________In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

No, I get your point very well. It is not the first time we have heard this point being argued.

Jeanne P has given, in her usual articulate and descriptive manner, the counter arguments so I will not spend time on those but will point out that this is an international forum (i.e. not just orientated to North America) where sailors from all parts of the globe are made welcome irrespective of nationality. As you will understand, we must have some rules for managing the forum. One of our rules is that we do not permit advertising for paying crew. The decision to adopt this rule was not taken lightly and, as previously mentioned, it was preceded by much debate.

This forum exists not to influence peoples' opinion but to exchange knowledge and experiences, so you may go on believing that paying crew is acceptable. That is a prerogative we will not try to deny you but we will not tolerate advertisements for paying crew here. It is a simple as that. That is the rule of the forum. Any further debate on this issue would be superfluous.