Straw bales on Big Island

If anyone would be able to answer a question I would be most grateful.
What is the availability of straw bales on the Big Island? And what
is the average cost per bale? It can be any material, rice, wheat,
etc. Thanks again.

Cheers,

Ned

Normals@webtv. 2007-09-26 08:20:35

If horse hay sells for around Twenty five a bale straw must be Fifteen
dollars or so
not cheap like on the mainland for about Two Dollars and fifty cents
bale. It use to be cheaper but you know how inflation goes once is
goes to Islands if no one owns land that has straw from Oats

wheat straw they bale or make building
material in sheets like plywood. Its smells and they even make straw
bales to build walls in houses as an insulation factor and finish the
bales off like reg. walls.

Heck in the Kansas, Colorato, Nebraska all through these areas they use
to make the sod houses with sod roofs

Sometimes when it rained the roof would
get so wet fall in. on you and the dirt floor, now hows that for a
house.

Howard bennett 2007-09-26 16:57:45

You know, there’s a guy on the Hamakua Coast who’s cutting and baling Guinea
Grass and then trucking it up to Waimea. Much as the stuff is a nightmare
for those of us who’d like to grow anything else, Guinea Grass is an
incredible fodder, and, especially when it’s young and tender — very very
tasty for our hooved friends.

Though it just occured to me — are you maybe planning to build one of those
trendy straw bale houses? Probably not a good idea in Hawaii.

Nedflanders@ps 2007-09-27 04:28:42

Ok, now you got me, why would this not be a good idea in Hawaii?

Cheers,

Ned

Hefferon1 2007-09-27 04:28:44

Fifteen dollar a bale should be a good reason why not to build with
straw, perhaps dampness would be another if the bales aren’t rendered
properly, have you considered building with rammed earth using
crushed lava as a base.
Aloha Ed

Sillender 2007-09-27 04:28:44

Tropical climates are humid. You’d be living in a decaying compost heap.

Never heard of a pili grass hale? And how do you keep the wood from
composting in your walls?

Cheers,

Ned

Normals@webtv. 2007-09-27 10:46:32

You mean like a sod house, they do build straw houses you have to
really have them so that they do not get wet or the mice and rats would
get in them a make nests bugs also would be difficult not mention
the smell is not good and the mould and also a fire hazard may build
up need wall board inside and outsideand something on the outside to
keep the elements out.

No not a good idea

Dan birchall 2007-09-27 10:46:35

I’m in Hawaii, on the Big Island, and I don’t see any reason it’d be a
particularly bad idea. (And yes, I’m familiar with straw bale houses in
other locations.)

Humidity might be an issue if you’re building in Hilo or some parts of the
Hilo-Hamakua coast. Kona’s pretty dry. And even in Hilo, there are times
of the year that are pretty dry, where there should be more than enough
days in a row to build a straw bale house and seal the walls with sprayed-on
stucco.

Of course, if you just can’t get past the “but Hilo’s HUMID!” meme, there’s
always COB construction; there are houses hundreds of years old in damp,
dreary old England that are made of that stuff. So the straw could still
be used.

“Oh, but the straw will get moldy!” I live in Hilo, and trust me on this,
ANYTHING that mold can find a way to grow on will, and does, get moldy
here. A relatively inorganic stucco may actually be a BETTER choice for
a home exterior than, say, wood.

“Oh, but there will be rats!” Uh, yeah… there will be, and are, rats.
The rats don’t particularly care what construction materials you choose…
at least, I’ve never heard them express any preference. Ditto for the
cute little mice, and the big roaches, and the geckos, skinks, spiny orb
spiders, earwigs, crickets and ants. 🙂

What about bamboo or thatch.
If available, these are proven tropical building materials.
Split bamboo walls give privasy and breath. Same for thatch
walls. Make your own twine with coconut husk…Get with the
environment!
-t

Tongaloa 2007-09-27 10:46:41

mmmmm rat, tastes like mongoose, only smaller…

-t

Howard bennett 2007-09-27 10:46:49

Oooh — and centipedes, and those new stinging nettle caterpillars. Yow!

Actually, straw bale houses are a great use of cheap, plentiful, local
building materials, where straw bales are cheap, plentiful and local.
Trouble is, straw on the big Island is none of those things (I wouldn’t be
surprised if they ship it from the mainland).

I like the suggestion one person made about rammed earth construction,
especially because of its thermal insulation qualities (and imagine the
colors you’d get with our various hues of red dirt). Trouble is, there’s
whole swathes of the Big Island where dirt ain’t exactly plentiful, either
(eg Puna and Kona).

There was an article in the Hawaiian Island Journal some months ago about
alternate housing that’s becoming popular in the wilder and woolier paerts
of Puna: “tensioned membranes” (ie stretched tarps) with bug screens and
elevated floors. The point being how little real house you need in the
tropics.

Normals@webtv. 2007-09-27 18:47:54

Ramed earth or cut sod from earth, either way you still would get bugs
working their way into the soil. They are pretty
smart little critters.

Nedflanders@ps 2007-09-27 18:48:13

Thank you one and all! I appreciate your insight. Just as a
reference, here in Pennsylvania, 87% humidity is our average; 100% as
I type this:) And as pointed out, as was my suspicions, Hawaii lacks
the resources to provide this form of construction. Straw is
available for twenty-five cents per 80lb. bale here in Pennsylvania.

Cheers,

Ned

Michael j wise 2007-09-27 18:48:28

Now THIS is more my style.

I want some place where I can listen to the rain without being IN it.
I wanna feel the breeze, but be able to retreat to AC when there is no
breeze. I want to sleep “outside” without worrying about bugs. I’m
particularly intrigued by that “Bedroom By The Sea” scene from Gattaca,
but there is NO WAY I’ll ever have that much money….

Back to reality.

A “Real” roof is probably a good idea, otherwise mildew will be an issue.
I figure a concrete “Slab/Basement”, for when the wind gets above 75 mph,
and just about everything else can be open or … understated.

This is why the gods/goddesses made dogs. Well that, and they taste good.

-t

Sillender 2007-09-29 06:39:21

news:<1063343101-sch@news.lava.net>…

Yup, good points – depends on how you do it. pili grass hales are open to
the air, drying within hours of getting wet. a bale of hay once wetted would
retain moisture and heat indefinitely. wood in the walls stays dry unless
there’s structural problems, and once exposed either rot or get eaten
quickly by termites.

And as mentioned below, there’s any number of unwelcome guests which will
want to move in with you.

Davon96720 2007-10-07 07:19:41

Straw n. 1. A stalk or stem of certain species of grain, pulse, etc.,
especially of wheat, rye, oats, barley, more rarely of buckwheat, beans, and
pease.

Not much of those here, I can’t see using bean or pea straw for much either.

dave

Nedflanders@ps 2007-10-07 14:16:43

Your source left out rice straw, which is what I thought may possibly
be available in Hawaii.

you’re a few years late for that 🙂
Anyway, it wasn’t usually turned into straw bales but rather into Canec
– and into electricity.

Maren,
remembering cane ashes falling on the laundry sometimes.

Dan birchall 2007-10-08 16:51:46

Ah, but my 1938-vintage house wasn’t!

….and into pressed board, not entirely dissimilar from modern-day
gypsum wallboard… but with the added plus of being highly flammable. 🙂

One room in our basement had it for a ceiling. HAD. A V&B Handy Mattock
Tiller (bottom of http://www.vbmfg.com/handyseriest.html) proved a very
suitable (and fun!) implement of destruction for removal of it.

Of course the stuff, being made from organic material, was all moldy and
rotting, and the “up” (concealed) side was covered with dead bugs and
droppings and… yucky.

Little, if any rice is grown in Hawaii. Hay is imported for livestock,
but hay is not straw… which I rekon you want to use for construction.

Let go of the idea. Straw construction is way cool and appropriate
for some climates, but not Hawaii. Trust me on that. You’re talking
tropical architecture in Hawaii. Straw will rot. You don’t need the
insulation. It’s not available locally. Think ferrocement.

Alvin e. toda 2007-10-09 01:37:37

What about adobe?? Isn’t straw part of the mix?

California grass grows like crazy here in Hawaii. It’s
a weed in the lowlands and chest high in many places.
Unless an animal is grazing the area, the weed takes
over.

But we have hurricanes here about every 20-50 years.
Aren’t these structures pretty weak.

–alvin

Maren purves 2007-10-09 01:37:37

That _is_ Canec. For all I know the factory was in Waiakea, at the end
of
Wailoa pond.

Our 1951 vintage house still has its Canec ceilings.
IMHO gypsum wallboard is no better than Canec, which is one of the
reasons
why we haven’t taken it out: we can’t decide what to put in instead.
(have you ever dealt with wet gypsum board? – I don’t even want
to think about that.)

Maren,
firm believer in single wall tongue and grove sided houses (for this
climate)
– we’ll probably end up with a tongue and groove ceiling too.

Dan birchall 2007-10-09 10:44:36

Oh, okay. 🙂 Under da Banyan?

Why put in anything? We only had this in one room, and that was in
the basement. The upstairs ceilings are wood, as far as I can tell.
We’re planning to clean the bottom of the floor and the joists and
paint the ceiling with a sprayer, probably using some anti-mildew/mold
paint – which frankly is the ONLY kind of paint that should EVER be
sold in Hilo. 😉

I heard that rats kinda like to nibble on Canec roofs (which are made from
pressed sugar cane waste, no?) so they infused the product with some very
nasty chemicals to deter them. I also heard that the Waiakea Villas
development is built over the site of the old Canec plant,which is why its
nickname in the real estate business is “Toxic Acres.”

Alvin e. toda 2007-10-09 19:46:21

Yes. This is true. But these ceilings are not supposed
to be a hazzard as long as you do not disturb them.

Maren purves 2007-10-09 19:46:47

Ah, we don’t have a basement. Not putting in anything in our case would
leave only the roof and roof strucure. I think that would get a bit
noisy,
judging from what it sounds like on the back lanai.

In your case, I absolutely agree.

Maren

Maren purves 2007-10-09 19:46:50

and no place for dead rats …

(we had one inside a wall in the office. They had to take a good part
of the wall out, clean it out and replace it. Cats or no cats, I don’t
need that at home)

Dan birchall 2007-10-10 06:15:04

Whoops… I disturbed mine quiite a lot! 🙂

-Dan

Lawrence akuta 2007-10-10 06:15:09

Having lived in several homes with Canec walls – interior and exterior –
back in the 40’s in Hilo, I’m somewhat taken aback by the reference to
Canec
roofs. That’s a new one on me. Have to say that I’ve never, ever
seen a
home with a Canec roof. All those Canec homes had corregated tin
roofs…and no ceilings. Just the roof joists and the underside of the
roof. The sound of rain on that roof lulled me to sleep many a night.

Howard bennett 2007-10-10 06:15:21

I mispoke — meant ceilings.

Maren purves 2007-10-10 06:15:25

I think he means ceilings.

I know that Canec will not survive being wet for a long time.
No way you can make roofs out of it that will last as much as a year
– here.

Maren

Alvin e. toda 2007-10-10 15:20:02

Hi Dan…perhaps the windmills stir up too much dust?
🙂 I think one chemical is arsenic. But almost all of
the time the ceiling is painted and no dust falls from
there. But I think that they may have changed the name
of the product as they eliminated the poison. It will
still look like canec.

–alvin

Glakk@potatora 2007-10-11 01:26:49

Often. Adobe is basically sun dried mud, which makes
it ok for a dry climate, but not a wet one.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean it would be feasable to harvest
and bale it in good quantity for good price.

Strong winds in general happen every few years.

No, not at all.

The reason strawbale isn’t feasable for Hawaii is that
its main advantage, thermal insulation, is not needed.

For Hawaii, you need ventilation, protection against sun,
high winds, termites, driving rain, and earthquakes in
some areas.

Strawbale is quite feasable and respected in the Midwest
and Canadian praries. The US and Canadian governments have
studied it and given it their blessings for certain areas,
and banks will approve loans and mortgages on strawbale
houses. There are strawbale houses over 100 years old,
doing just fine.

But not Hawaii.

Lawrence akuta 2007-10-11 01:26:51

ah yes…the ubiquitous California grass. Great stuff. When growing on a
hillside, sliding down on it on a large piece of corrugated cardboard was
such marvelous fun. We as kids frequented the trash bins of appliance
stores in Hilo and salvaged the corrugated cardboard from the refrigerator
cartons and the like. The only negative was those tiny hairlike bristles
that itched like crazy under your skin…not at all unlike the tiny fibers
from fiberglass insulation. And if you took a section of the stalk and with
a knife carefully cut out a tiny mouthpiece and some even smaller holes, you
ended up with a reasonable facsimile of a flute.

Thing is…in all the almost thirty years I’ve spent here in California,
I’ve never ever run across anything at all that even vaguely resembles this
plant in my wanderings up and down the state. The closest is that which is
called bermuda grass, but this thing called bermuda grass absolutely pales
to the Hawaiian California grass. Heck – it never grows 1/5 as high as
California grass!

Often. Adobe is basically sun dried mud, which makes
it ok for a dry climate, but not a wet one.

Sue larkin 2007-10-11 01:26:57

Before I moved to Hawaii in the 70s, I owned a home in SoCal that was
constructed out of hand made adobe bricks. I’m not recalling any
noticable straw but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t there! Anyway…it was
a very old house at that time and it’s still going strong…even being
placed on the historic house registry, or whatever that’s called!

Alvin e. toda 2007-10-11 01:27:01

Maybe mud without straw is too brittle to use. Walls
would develop large and dangerous cracks. I notice a
lot of these types of houses seem to have a thin stucco
like coating– maybe for the rain? But like a lot of
old Hawaii homes, they also have large verandas which
would seem to keep the walls dry.

Alvin e. toda 2007-10-11 01:27:01

I think I’ve seen a lot of it along Hwy 1 along the
coast. Like you say it’s a small grass– not anything
like when it grows in Hawaii. Lots of plants grow real
well here. We gotta watch what we import.

–alvin

Glakk@potatora 2007-10-12 11:19:28

Adobe isn’t happening for Hawaii’s climate, either. Adobe
bricks are dried, but not fired, so they are unstable in
the presense of moisture. I’ve seen suitability maps for
both straw and adobe, and Hawaii’s climate is not suitable for either.

Yeah, I know that stuff. It might be possible to harvest
and bale it if it were growing in regular fields. As it
is, it usually grows over neglected property, in patches
here and there, alongside roads, etc. Not very feasable
for mowing and baling, IMHO.

Ah, more than that, braddah. Some places get strong winds
ever year almost.

No, that’s one area where they have much of Hawaii’s single
wall construction beat by a mile. Adobe gets its strength
from sheer weight, while strawbale construction uses some
wood framing, and typically rebar driven thru the bales.
Strawbale, where it’s appropriate, can give you surprising
results. The US and Canadian gov’ts have done research on
it, and there is quite a lot of literature and experience
available. Some places in the midwest, there are towns
with lots of old strawbale built houses.

One myth about it is that it’s dirt cheap. One thing that
surprised me was that it has good fire qualities — it
self-extinguishes. The main advantage of it is that it
has excellent insulating qualities.

But you just don’t need to fight the cold in Hawaii. For
Hawaii, the main concerns are ventilation and control of
blowing rain — and you really ought to count on a
hurricane more often than 20-50 years…

Alvin e. toda 2007-10-12 11:19:32

You know adobe may not work here but the ancient
Hawaiians have used a native grass for their homes that
works well in this climate. I’ve seen a number of these
types of homes as demos– City of Refuge on the Big
Island, for example. Dimly recall that the grass may
have been pretty old on the houses. Of course, the
ancient Hawaiians may not have had as many annoying
bugs and rodents as we do now.

–alvin

Glakk@potatora 2007-10-13 00:26:54

Thatch works in damp climates because it can breathe,
but it isn’t allowed for residential construction due
to the fire hazzard. Some neighbors built a thatch
wall for a shed in their yard, and when the building
inspector heard of it, he made them tear it down
right now. Normally, building inspectors were very
lenient in that area, but in this case, he said it
was too serious to give any slack. I guess one stray
mosquito coil, and it’s like poof city.

I recently heard that some thatch roofs in Ireland
are over 100 years old. Which could be a problem,
’cause how many people know how to do that work
any more? In Japan, when an old farmhouse needs
rethatching, an old master comes to the village,
and townsfolk pitch in to help, and pay for the
lessons. Those roofs are supposed to harbor snakes.
Snakes! Falling on my futon!

Nedflanders@ps 2007-10-13 13:36:42

Please, let this thread die.

Alvin e. toda 2007-10-13 13:36:44

I can understand the fire hazard thing. It’s too bad
there’s not a way to fireproof dry grass. Re. Irish
roof, I’s amazing they can last so long. I guess the
snakes are like our geckos. The snakes eat pesky
rodents in the roof while our geckos feast on the
cockroaches in the houses.

–alvin

Glakk@potatora 2007-10-13 13:36:54

If you aren’t interested in the topic, why don’t you just skip
over it and read something you are interested in? Why should
anyone refrain from discussing something on the internet just
because -you- aren’t particularly interested? Who are you?

Just because you aren’t interested in something does not mean
it is unworthy of discussion.

And if you want a thread to die, why post to it?

Sharon westfal 2007-10-13 13:37:11

Actually, didn’t he start the thread? I don’t think it’s that he’s not
interested, but maybe it’s long gone beyond original intentions.

Well, I guess not. I was kinda thinking more about the more general
topic of architecture for Hawaii. Maybe another thread? It’s just
that I’m better at joining threads than starting new ones. I don’t
have any original ideas. I can only react.

The UH Hilo library and cafeteria buildings are excellent examples
of bad tropical architecture. And Edith Kanakaole Hall is a sick
building. About two weeks into each sememster, you see a lot of
people who use that building getting sick.

Yes, it just feels like it is getting a bit “urban-legendish” and
while I hope to preserve free thought, sometimes the mire of misnomers
and false logic become to unbearable to correct and as such, will help
promote the wrong ideas and perpetuate the “I once read somewhere that
=85” dribble that plagues the internet=97as asking and doing are two
separate things, I only inquired about availability and cost, nothing
more, which was answered completely and fully. I am not implying that
this has happened here, but I do feel that it is very close to
occurring, something I hope to avoid. Which is why I post “Please,
let this thread die” in jest=97my apology to the sensitive Republicans
that I have offended; the World, the Internet, and Newsgroups are much
too serious of places and they are not appropriate venues for jokes or
sarcasm. I am sorry.