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A) That girl reminds me of every muslim girl i've ever met that professes that they follow islam of their own accord or that they choose to wear the veil (i.e. not having a clue about what they are talking about).

B) That little smile that the muslim guy cracks when he finally answers Dawkin's question about apostasy is very telling.

Yeah, that smile was a smirky smart ass - "see I know you're trying to get a rise out of me by asking something of a shocker (ooooh death for apostates) but you cheeky bastard, i'll get you" type thing. It was a smarmy, cocky, holier-than-thou type smile as well.

The best part is: COMPLETELY IGNORE THE SPEAKER. Completely ignore the fact that it is Dawkins, a very smart person, is speaking. Even if you take out the fact that Dawkins was trying to get him to admit it.. Take it at face value that you would be put to death speaking against the religion you were born into. How fucked up is that? By itself?

That damn veil, I really wish the byzantine's never had made it a vogue thing to wear. The virgin merry was shown to be humble and for some odd reason needed to be covered up. Example: Theotokos & Child in the apse at the Hagia Sophia, Ca 860.

AND the Persians. You can't blame everything on the Byzantines, philistine.

Even then, I dispute that this is purely a byzantine/persian invention, given the fact the arabs lived in the freakin desert, and there's a practical function for having a face covering in the desert. Look at male bedouin nomads.

It's really the Ottomans that made the switch from a functional veil (keep out the sand) to a full face hide-the-women thing, as it was a sign of wealth to have multiple wives and concubines in tow who were hidden from public view with full body and face coverings.

The eastern romans were into the veil not because it covered anything, but because they were into wearing clothes that were completely see through, which was part of what the western romans were derising as the oriental nature of the eastern romans. Hardly the hide-the-face veil of modern muslims.

I'd like to believe that it was his inability to say the word of Apostasy correctly the first few tries. I know i've done that, laugh at myself to shake off embarrassment.

However his question afterwards, roughly: What does that have to do with Great Britain? is more showing. A number of islamists have enforced Sharia law outside of the Countries that it is law. "Honor Killings" for one.

People smile when they are under stress. It is quite natural and happens all the time. Stress smiles are often seen as insincere smiles since they do not represent actual happiness and often mean that the person does not like whoever they are smiling at. Stress smiles tend to be mouth only smiles lacking of crinkling around the eyes.

I feel the religion in general is like christianity in the past. It hasn't gotten to the point where it is somewhat tolerant - i.e. it does not try to hide the intolerance, whereas christianity to a certain degree does.

Hey bro, the issue of apostasy in Islam is a complex issue that has been oft misunderstood. The death penalty is only applied if a person leaves the religion and starts to actively wage war against or oppress members of the Muslim nation. So apostasy becomes a political rather than a religious matter. Here, the issue becomes one of treason, and almost all countries deal very harshly with traitors.

Punishment for apostasy is divine, not earthly. This can be seen from the following Qur'anic verses:

Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, God will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path. [4:137]

How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people. [3:86]

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most sure hand-hold, that never breaks. And God is Hearing, Knowing. [2:256]

The Qur'an goes on to elaborate upon the following:

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? [10:99]

Finally, if the punishment in Islam for apostasy really was execution, then that would contradict the following verse:

And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion. [3:72]

If Islam really did have a death penalty for apostasy, then how would these people have gotten away with their public actions of believing in the day and returning to their religions in the night in order to sow discord within the Muslim community?

In addition, the following hadith also supports this notion:

Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to Muhammad for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to Muhammad "cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Muhammad said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good." Bukhari

As you can see, the Bedouin recanted the conversion, and although the Prophet refused to assist him in doing that, he did nothing to hinder him and allowed him to leave Medina unharmed.

Other hadiths which may mention punishment for leaving one's religion were meant to be taken in a political context, as to apostate would have been to ally oneself with the Pagan Arab tribes who were conspiring against and seeking to destroy the Muslim community. They do not refer to leaving one's religion in times of peace. The famous truce of Hudaybiyah further illustrates that the Prophet did not punish apostates with the death penalty. Among the conditions (which were set by the pagans) that the Prophet (who was more powerful than his opponents and had just defeated them) accepted were:

Originally, the treaty referred to Muhammad as the Messenger of God, but this was unacceptable to the Quraish ambassador Suhayl ibn Amr. Muhammad compromised, and told his cousin Ali to strike out the words 'Messenger of God'. Ali refused, after which Muhammad himself rubbed out the words. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:49:62, Sahih Muslim, 19:4404).

Another clause of the treaty stated that any citizen from Mecca entering Medina was eligible to be returned to Mecca (if they wanted), while the reverse was not true, and any Muslim from Medina entering Mecca was not eligible to be returned to the Muslims, even if Muhammad himself requested. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:50:874)

A condition was also placed that the Muslims could not enter for their pilgrimage at that time, but could return the following year. The treaty also assured a 10-year peace. After the signing of the treaty, there was still great fury among the Muslims because they did not like its stipulations. Muhammad, binding onto the Islamic ethic "fulfill every promise" ordered that Muslims do exactly as the treaty says. Many Muslims thereafter objected, when Muhammad told them (thrice) to perform their rites there and then. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:50:891)

In conclusion, based on evidence from both the Qur'an and Hadith, there is no earthly punishment for apostasy in Islam.

OK so this is the doctrine, but as someone who has seen a peaceful man have his head taken off for simply choosing not to participate in the faith any longer, then is it fair to say that there are many that are not living the doctrine and interpreting these teachings into dangerous and warlike zeal and behaviors?

"In conclusion, based on evidence from both the Qur'an and Hadith, there is no earthly punishment for apostasy in Islam."

Absoulute hogwash meant for the consumption of ill-informed westerners. I do not fear for my life for no reason.

Hadith:

The Prophet -- the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him -- said, "He who changes his religion must be killed" Sahih Bukhari 84:57

.

Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57

.

Narrated Abu Burda:
Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed.* This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'" Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:

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Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17

.

Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection." Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 65

.

Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle

.

Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah), but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community. - Sahih Muslim 4152

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Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal: AbuMusa said: Mu'adh came to me when I was in the Yemen. A man who was Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam. When Mu'adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed. One of them said: He was asked to repent before that. Sunan Abu Dawood Book 38 No. 4341
.

Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence)

08.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane, voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.”
- Reliance for the Traveler

Absoulute hogwash meant for the consumption of ill-informed westerners.

Not just the ill-informed. Many academics and others in the ruling elite are apologists for Islam and willingly perpetuate the lies. This went on during the cold war as well. Stalin called the western advocates of Soviet communism "useful idiots."

Even if you are right and apostasy is not punished by death, the Muslim faith still has a lot to answer for. Like 109 verses in the Quran that openly call for violence against nonbelievers. It even clearly states that Muhammad holds the Muslims that go out and fight higher in value than the ones who stay at home in peace. For the record though, it is very clear that people who leave the Muslim faith can be put to death because of it.

I don't like any organized religion, but it is clear the Muslim faith goes above and beyond with a doctrine that literally preaches killing nonbelievers.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

So... good info. Um, so you're saying apostates are not executed in Muslim countries, or in other words, is the usual official interpretation in line with this? Because it seems like someone in Tunisia was executed for converting to Christianity this year. http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/08/video-lifts-veil-on-arab-muslim-societies not sure if this is legit, but it was widely reported on.

But saying that someone is "mispracticing" it is completely subjective. They very well may be practicing it correctly... under their own interpretation. Who is to say what is correct or incorrect here?

"You are, of course, free to interpret the Bible differently—though isn't it amazing that you have succeeded in discerning the true teachings of Christianity, while the most influential thinkers in the history of your faith failed?"
-Sam Harris

No matter what it does or does not say in the Qur'an, it's scary that Dr. Muhamad Mukaddam even concedes that, in Muslim nations, the penalty for leaving the faith is execution. Based on his credentials, Dr. Mukaddam probably knows what he's talking about. Also, you mention apostasy being a political rather then religious matter. I'm sorry, but in most Muslim nations, there is no distinction. Most muslim nations have a theocratic government, making all political matters also religious matters and vice versa.

I understand your desire to defend you beliefs, but a cursory glance at the Wikipedia page Apostasy in Islam shows that "The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind."

In your interpretation, apostasy is not punishable by death, but yours is not the most prominent interpretation.

"...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.

Bukhari (83:37) -

"Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate

A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) -

"There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) -

"Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Narrated `Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached IbnAbbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle [Muhammad], 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" - Sahih-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57

And if you think I’m being cute, your friends here agree with me on this one…

"you are treading on dangerous ground. The Punishment for apostasy [leaving a religion] is known, it even dates back to the time of the Children of Israel...The Punishment of Apostacy, as understood by the classical ulema [Islamic scholars] has always been death."

Also...

[giving justification for killing atheists] "lastly, the fitnah [discord] caused by murtads is amazing. have you ever seen how much harm an apostate can do? seriously, they really cause problems in society man. likewise in an islamic state only people of the book [Jews & Christians] are allowed to live there (i think) so would it make sence to have an athiest live there?"

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

This verse very clearly calls for the death of apostates under no special circumstances. This is another hadith from the same book, 84:57, the message is even clearer.

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

This is some really sloppy apologetics. Don't be fooled, people. Countless Imams have affirmed that merely turning your back on Islam is akin to treason, and worthy of death. Citing a few passages that don't actually deal directly with the law of Islam, but are merely parables about how nonbelievers will be lost to god, does nothing to counter the fact that apostasy, as this man said, is dealt with with the death penalty according to the Sharia.

Like all religions, you can make whatever you wish from the text (see the various secs in Christianity and Judaism). So your analysis, however learned, is irrelevant.

What is relevant is what interpretations are used in-practice today by Islamic people and Islamic nations.

Since the de-facto (and often de-jure) penalty for preaching atheism is most-often death, I would say the current popular manifestation of Islam leaves a lot to be desired.

Islam may re-shape itself into a more tolerant and more life & peace oriented religion - the components are certainly there in the text if you care to look. But currently most Islamic people aren't looking.

ID cards in gulf countries state the persons religion on them. My parents listed down "muslim" for saftey reasons. When i was born, without consulting my parents, or me, the government listed and labeled me as muslim. I recently tried to change it. I tried to find a lawyer, every single lawyer in the country was too afraid to take the case.

Just the IDEA that an organization can issued death threats, just because they call themselves a religion, is tyranny at it's worst. And the actual application of these death threats is pure TERRORISM.

2) The way these people evade the question is a palpable indication of their FEAR.

The man who worships a tyrant in heaven naturally
submits his neck to the yoke of tyrants on earth.
[George W. Foote, "Flowers of Freethought"]

Man sees ONLY the eyes of a beautiful woman: driven to incite a fight with her husband because he cannot control himself and then tries to introduce laws to ban women from displaying their eyes in public rather than, you know, telling men that they should control their own urges or placing any blame what-so-ever on men at all.

This is what scares me! It's spreading! I'm just glad we moved at the prime time for me to understand that this crap ain't flying; a little more time in the country/preachy and I might've turned into one of them (or maybe I was just too bright and wouldn't have- but who knows in this timeline :P )

HE says that because it's the answer to the question. The only countries run by Sharia law are islamic, and the penalty for apostasy in sharia law is death. Don't make him sound like a smug asshole for answering the question.

The way he afterword said that he does not understand how it applied to Britain. To me, this shows that he was trying to be an apologist for this barbaric rule, and that is what makes him seem like an asshole.

Well, yeah, because "Sharia law" is just another name for "the moral code and religious law of Islam". His answer was worded that way to avoid responsibility. Those "Islamic countries" didn't make up Sharia law--the Islamic faith did and those countries follow it.

It's like asking a Mormon fundamentalist if they believe in polygamy and getting the answer, "Utah outlaws it, so I guess we don't."

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

I don't understand the madness of religion. It tries so hard to put humans on a level above other animals and yet religion turns humans into housepets quicker than anything I've ever seen.

If you have two cats and you give treats to one and refuse to give the treats to the other one, 2 interesting outcomes typically occur:

The cat with no treats will try to snuggle up to you to get treats using his love.

The cat with no treats will attack the other cat for his treat.

Religious people here are the cats, and the god is the human. The actual logical way to respond here would be for the cat that has no treats to get pissed off at the human. Why is the human being an asshole and giving all the treats to one cat? What a fuckhead, asshole, uncaring bastard. Why can't he just give all the cats the same amount of treats? I suppose he's just a dick who prefers white cats over black cats (yes there are racial implications here).

You would think that humans are smarter than cats, but when it comes to this nope. We still hiss at each other in hopes to get each others treats (war) and still think showing the human more love than the other cat (praying harder!) will get us treats. Logically, we should all be pissed off at the human, but when the first cat is sitting there with a full belly and a surplus of treats it's kind of hard to find a reason to fight the human or learn to make your own treats, even though it would save his cat brethren as a whole.

No, because when religious people encounter a non believer, it makes them think about all the holes in their religion that they recognize, but have tried really really hard not to think about. It destroys their suspension of disbelief.

For religion to be successful, it needs to create an impenetrable bubble. This is why a lot of cults do not allow members to keep contact with their families and former friends.

Like bill maher said, the atheist is like the escaped slave, he brings news of freedom. He must be silenced.

Muhammad wasn't a paedophile! The marriage was completely legitimate and they loved each other very much and she was his favourite wife and it was completely normal back then and she had had her first period already and don't knock it till you've tried it!

There are always different interpretations of Islam. There will probably be different interpretations of Islam in the future. The Koran is vague and the Hadith are a jumble and very politicized. Let's just get that one out of the way.

However, if we look to Islam in both practice and ideologically, there are very few Muslims who would be honest enough to be proud of what the orthodoxy is concerning their religion. The dominant orthodoxies being Sunni and Shia Islam.

I make no bones about it. Orthodox Islam is a horrible religion and way of life. It is a religion that decides that human development ended 1400 years ago. The enlightenment, human rights, woman's rights... all irrelevant as human society was perfected 1400 years ago... or so goes the orthodoxy. I literally sit there amazed at my fellow Muslims at times. Even the 'westernized' ones who don't wear Hijab or anything. Many actually think life was some kind of utopia back then.

How they do that while reading Islam's own sources like the Hadith is a mystery to me.

Let's set it straight. The Arabs at that time were a bunch of uncivilized, uneducated drunken thugs who treated woman as property, killed and murdered each other. Islam came and did improve things on many levels. They stopped killing their baby girls (yay!!!). But you don't change a people in one generation.

I dare not say this in my community... but I don't particularly think Mohamed is to be the example for man kind for eternity. He was a reformer no doubt. But so where many 'great men' in history. But we wouldn't want to follow their example today. If I'm feeling glib I ask some of my orthodox friends if they'd let a 50 year old man marry their 6 year old daughter and then have sex with her when she reaches puberty at 9 (or 10 or 11 or 12... it's sick regardless).

To put some perspective on it. The founders of the US were great men with great revolutionary ideals. But let's not pretend they should be examples to be followed today in their entirety. They owned slaves for example. They should be respected for the changes they made in their time.

Orthodox Islam is 100% about trying to figure out how the prophet Mohamed lived his life. I grew up with people who would brush their teeth with a wooden stick because that is how the prophet brushed his teeth. Now yes, various scholars sit around trying to separate what is 'technology' and most orthodox Muslims today do use a toothbrush... but I just mention this so people grasp what orthodox Islam is about.

And don't mistake Orthodoxy for something radical here. This is the dominant and general understanding of Islam for the majority of Muslims. Now many Muslims are relaxed and don't care about many things... but their belief system is generally orthodox.

So Islamic Orthodoxy basically tries to recreate a golden age of Islam that never existed. It thinks that humanity reached it peak at the time of the prophet Mohamed. They always get exactly what they want... a backwards, oppressive, violent society... because well... that is what they had back then.

You are not allowed to interpret gods word. You are a slave, you must be proud of your chains. You cannot argue with gods word, you either follow everything literally, or you realize this is all nonsense and burn the book in your fireplace. In the game of theocratic fascism, you believe or you don't, there is no middle ground.

It's the 21st century and mankind still believes in ghost stories, so much so, that they would literally kill to preserve those stories and replace reality with them, only to find that reality doesn't agree with those stories.

Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, had people killed for insulting him or for criticizing his religion. This included women. Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.

Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger." In the last nine years of his life, he ordered no less than 65 military campaigns to do exactly that.

Muhammad inspired his men to war with the basest of motives, using captured loot, sex and a gluttonous paradise as incentives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. Again, Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.