Main menu

Liminal / Liminoid Time

After a good, long run, we have decided to close our forums in an effort to refocus attention to other sections of the site. Fortunately for you all, we're living in a time where discussion of a favorite topic now has a lot of homes. So we encourage you all to bring your ravenous love for discussion to Chuck's official Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr and Instagram. And, as always, you can still post comments on all News updates. Thank you for your loyalty and passion over the years. These changes will happen June 1.

When have you ever experienced liminal or liminoid time? This is when you experience being outside of time, time seems to stop or slow down. Sometimes, it's like your inside a magic room that is detached from reality, unanchored, you could open the door again and it could open to anywhere, a different universe even. Sometimes, when you come out, yeah food tastes better, colors are more vivid, sex is more intense, fear is gone or at least you can transcend it. In that opening, it's like you could do anything or be anybody.

I think the dark side of it is that you could also hurt anybody and use people--You think that you are more important, because you are going to change the world, and everyone else is just a pawn in your game. You say people who don't like you are closed-minded or they just don't "get it" because they are unenlightened, if they could just "get it" and be like you, then everything would be perfect. Of course, you are just fully expressing your authentic self, and if people can't accept that, well fuck 'em. Naturally, this is all hypothetical, I could not possibly be talking about my own personal experience ;)

I experienced time like this in a car crash. You know how everything seems to slow down, and you feel that if you survive it you'll be in a different place and time.

Did I misunderstand your post?

No, you got the right idea, I just tend to ramble a bit. Often, it is something that happens that seems like a turning point in your life, whether good or bad. After the event, you are not the same person, and you don't have the same future that you did before the event.

On September 11th, for example, I vividly remember standing in front of my house and watching an F-18 fighter go overhead at near treetop level, I think because we lived on the flight path to Camp David. Then I gave some batteries to a neighborhood kid for his portable CD player, I'd say he was about 9 years old. That is a good example of an experience that was shared by many people, and the little seemingly meaningless details that stick in your mind. For the previous generation, it was when JFK was shot.

But there are also moments like this on a smaller, more personal scale, and the intensity varies. For example, I have experienced a milder form of what I would have to call liminoid time at drumming circles and pipe ceremonies, or even when I am really focused on solving a computer problem. I have also heard it called [I]flow[/I] or being [I]in the zone[/I]. It's like the personal [I]you[/I] disappears and you become part of the environment.

The thing that I wonder is [I]Is this just some fluke of brain chemistry or is there something more to it?[/I]

I don't know if this is what you want but...
I'll have to say mine was when my friend and I were watching Faces of Death, the first one, and we were almost up to the end of it and he said something that just sent me to another world...

Sidenote: I've been agnostic for as long as I can remember, I just never really sat down and thought about it thoroghly (sp?).

He said, "Dude, what if there's no after-life?"
With that question I felt overwhelmed with emotions, nothing felt real, and I felt like i had escaped my own body, and outside that moment and everything made sense to me... I realized how there really isn't a God (atleast to me) how there really isn't an after-life... What we do now in this life is what is important. I was in that trance for so long my friend looked at me and said, "Dude, you alright?"

Aside from that, I was in a car crash, with this friend, this was before, and yeah everything does slow down and feels dream-like. But no startling revelations there. Just some ultra slow-motion event where you see everything happen one by one.

once while on LSD i did a whippet, held my breath, and lay back with a pillow over my face while in a circle of friends - suddenly, i was sitting up looking at everyone, but couldn't speak - my view was restricted, like i was looking at the world through a camera or widescreen movie, with black bars on top and bottom, and at the bottom there was this number ticking down:

3743:123:1:00

getting smaller and smaller, and as i spoke i felt like i was speaking my lines in a play - people were doing little things: one guy was flipping this watercolor book back and forth and one way it was painted, the next not painted; a friend of mine her face was all red, which i later took to mean that only SHE was hearing what i was saying - as i tried to figure out what was happening the counter got smaller and smaller, and as i finally "understood" everything, the counter hit 0000:000:0:00 and i sat up, gasping for air, pulling the pillow off my face - tears were running down my face as i had returned to my body

it seemed to me that i had somehow rewound my life those thirty second, and then lived them again, and re-entered my body (tears being one sign of doing that)

ever since then (that was back in 1988) i've felt that time is elastic, and not linear

No butchery, that was perfect, there's no "right answer" here. The word [I]ineffable[/I] comes to mind, it's kind of hard to describe exactly what this thing is or what it's about. All I know is that I [I]crave[/I] it, not sure if it is an addiction, or if it serves some higher purpose.

The term that I have invented for myself is [I]mystical atheist[/I]. I don't believe in god or an afterlife or that we have a ephemeral spirit that is separate from our bodies (we are made out of thinking meat) but at the same time, I have had mystical experiences, it's something that I haven't integrated yet.

The flip side of it is all of the things that anchor us to "reality" and define who we are, all those little things that "hook" us and put us back into some old familiar way of being. The insanity that we inherit from our parents and the world around us that we don't recognize as insanity. It's kind of like a bug in a computer program.

For example, the situation with my noisy neighbors. On the one hand, I have this sense that there is some Universal Law that all human beings should innately know that you should not listen to loud music and should be "courteous". At the same time, I'm supposed to "tolerate the fools gladly" and not get mad about it, for that matter, I don't really have a clue how to express anger or even have a sane, responsible conversation with my neighbors about the noise, so I just avoid it. Two conflicting kinds of insanity. True, this is what I inherited, but there's no use in blaming anybody for it, it was the hand that I was dealt. The bind is figuring out what I can do about it now. In any case, this is all bullshit, the story and drama about what all is going on is way out of proportion to whatever is the real reality.

Anchors. Hooks. My point is that if you can somehow let go of all of those anchors, that is one way to get into liminal time, until one of those hooks catches up with you and pulls you back to "reality" such as it seems.

The term that I have invented for myself is mystical atheist. I don't believe in god or an afterlife or that we have a ephemeral spirit that is separate from our bodies (we are made out of thinking meat) but at the same time, I have had mystical experiences, it's something that I haven't integrated yet.

This is bloody brilliant, 'Mystical Atheist', thats really good...

Quote:

The flip side of it is all of the things that anchor us to "reality" and define who we are, all those little things that "hook" us and put us back into some old familiar way of being. The insanity that we inherit from our parents and the world around us that we don't recognize as insanity. It's kind of like a bug in a computer program.

This is pretty true too. That whole thing about something 'anchoring' us back to reality like coming out of a drug trip, it makes total sense...
Like I said my friend, wants to believe that there [I]has[/I]to be something more to life then just the now, so he dug up this old quote from an Incubus song 'New Skin'; I dont know for the life of me who said it but the quote goes like this:

"Until the 20th century, reality was everything humans could touch, smell, see,
and hear. Since the inital publication of the charged electromagnetic spectrum, humans
learned that what they can touch, smell, see, and hear...is less than one
millionth of reality."

I think this pretty much sums up any outside or mystical experiences anyone feels -- maybe there [I]is[/I] more to life... Maybe not and it's just a chemical imbalance, but either way -- it's interesting enough.

The true question now is, whats out there than can release these anchors and hooks regurlarly, or even permenently.

Chuck has offered car crashes.
Wickerkat said drugs worked for him, and maybe [I]will[/I] work all in all.
And you, Meatthinker, has experienced them in drumming circles and pipe ceremonies.

This seems like Liminoid experiences are like a social escapism that isn't, y'know, movies or television, something more involving.

I don't know, I've only minimally researched the whole Liminal thing with Victor Turner. Maybe you can start explaining what Victor Turner was talking about in 'lamens terms' aka dumb people talk (for people like me)

Originally, the term I used was "spiritual atheist" but that's kind of silly given I believe there is no spirit to be spiritual about. Also "spiritual" has a lot of associations for people that aren't what I am about. "Mystical" is still not perfect, but better captures the essence of what I am trying to say, it's those experiences that seem somehow outside ordinary, everyday reality.

chubbz;982352 wrote:

Like I said my friend, wants to believe that there [I]has[/I]to be something more to life then just the now, so he dug up this old quote from an Incubus song 'New Skin'; I dont know for the life of me who said it but the quote goes like this:

"Until the 20th century, reality was everything humans could touch, smell, see,
and hear. Since the inital publication of the charged electromagnetic spectrum, humans
learned that what they can touch, smell, see, and hear...is less than one
millionth of reality."

One of my faves from before Incubus burned out on pot, or at least that is my theory about what happened.

The true question now is, whats out there than can release these anchors and hooks regurlarly, or even permenently.

And can you remove all those hooks and still be functional and survive in the world? The extreme end is like the part from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance where the guy is catatonic sitting in a puddle of his own piss. It's nice to visit mountain tops, but not so much to try to live up there.

chubbz;982366 wrote:

Chuck has offered car crashes.
Wickerkat said drugs worked for him, and maybe [I]will[/I] work all in all.
And you, Meatthinker, has experienced them in drumming circles and pipe ceremonies.

This seems like Liminoid experiences are like a social escapism that isn't, y'know, movies or television, something more involving.

I don't know, I've only minimally researched the whole Liminal thing with Victor Turner. Maybe you can start explaining what Victor Turner was talking about in 'lamens terms' aka dumb people talk (for people like me)

It's not just about escapism, it can also be about personal power. When you are in that liminal space, you can see things about yourself and your life, then take actions that depart from old routines, break cycles, expand what is possible. It's enough to make one small act that can change your life. It's when you don't act that it becomes just escapism.

Went to the drumming circle yesterday. For a time, I was very present to my grandparents' farm, instead of sitting on the hill at the drumming circle, I was sitting 500 miles away on the hill next to that cottage, all the sounds and smells. It felt like we were drumming forever, and there were hundreds of drums, not just the five drums. Nothing earth shattering or life altering, but somehow healing, like a good massage or enjoying a book of poems. It did make the weekend feel like it lasted a whole lot longer, Friday feels like a week ago.

And can you remove all those hooks and still be functional and survive in the world? The extreme end is like the part from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance where the guy is catatonic sitting in a puddle of his own piss. It's nice to visit mountain tops, but not so much to try to live up there.

It's not just about escapism, it can also be about personal power. When you are in that liminal space, you can see things about yourself and your life, then take actions that depart from old routines, break cycles, expand what is possible. It's enough to make one small act that can change your life. It's when you don't act that it becomes just escapism.

I think you're right. You can't function once you've taken out the hooks. Because a big number of the hooks are the things that keep you functioning in society. As Chuck points out in this book, it's things like the lines on the road. and lanuage, and the standards of human interaction, and morality... So many of these things are just plain ridiculous, little 'hooks' to keep you on the ground, but, like hooks, they dig into you and can cause pain, if you are aware of them. They go more essential, deeper, then those examples i've given to you. Things like your senses, your perception of reality. These are just illusions, creations to keep you sane... But you can't get rid of them, or else you wouldn't have them. Does that make sense? They are a necesarry evil, i guess. Although evil is too strong of a word.
But, for a while, you can get away, and while your away, you make changes. You SEE changes. This makes it more then just an escape. You have to do something with it for it to have meaning.
I've had that type of experience twice before, and they;ve made a huge impact on everything in my life. Note that it was a near death experience that triggered one of these. What do you think that has to do with this type of experience? Why is it sometimes linked with things like car crashes, and drowning, and gun accidents?

Things like your senses, your perception of reality. These are just illusions, creations to keep you sane... But you can't get rid of them, or else you wouldn't have them. Does that make sense? They are a necesarry evil, i guess. Although evil is too strong of a word.

Revisiting from an "organic" perspective, we are animals, the senses that we have evolved over millions of years, they are the way that they are because previous offspring survived better with them, the key there being survival. But they aren't perfect, either, there are some fucked up details to the design that probably happened by chance, but weren't harmful enough to get sorted out, like blood vessels on the front of the retina.

Put another way, all those hooks are there for your survival. Letting go of all of the hooks is possibly detrimental to your survival. The trick is to identify the "bogus" hooks that seem key to your survival, but that actually are not. Say, for example, still trying to win your parents' approval after you have become self sufficient.

Now we have language, and a sense of self or identity, and there are survival instincts directed toward the survival of one's identity that don't necessarily have anything to do with the survival of one's body. It is the "I" that we so often refer to. I am not a violent person. If I were to go out and kill a person, that "I" would also die, and a new "I" would be born. Or I could keep the old "I" and try to live in denial, find some nutty way to rationalize it to myself how "I am not [I]really[/I] a violent person, it was just that one time, and besides, he made me do it, I was just trying to defend myself..." and so on. Conversely, in order to defend the survival of the "I" that is not violent, I would avoid violent activities.

the2crowrox;985322 wrote:

But, for a while, you can get away, and while your away, you make changes. You SEE changes. This makes it more then just an escape. You have to do something with it for it to have meaning.
I've had that type of experience twice before, and they;ve made a huge impact on everything in my life. Note that it was a near death experience that triggered one of these. What do you think that has to do with this type of experience? Why is it sometimes linked with things like car crashes, and drowning, and gun accidents?

I like how Tyler Durden refers to it as a "near life experience." Perhaps it has something to do with becoming less attached to one's survival, or that the "I" is now more present to the fact that it is not going to last forever. Unfortunately, most religion seems dedicated to empowering people to deny that the "I" will ever die, that it will be transported to some magical place where it can exist forever and never change.

What do you think that has to do with this type of experience? Why is it sometimes linked with things like car crashes, and drowning, and gun accidents?

Like Chuck said, It's only by 'hitting bottem' or going through a tragedy or experiencing things that threaten your life that you really change. Or that you are able to see what is important to you or what you value most.

Quote:

Things like your senses, your perception of reality. These are just illusions, creations to keep you sane... But you can't get rid of them, or else you wouldn't have them. Does that make sense? They are a necesarry evil, i guess.

Dude this is so, so, so true. Which reminds me of that line Rant says in the book... Sorry Meathinker about the no spoilers thing but...

(********SPOILER ALERT**********)

[CODE][PHP]Rant Casey on DRVR Radio Graphic Traffic: "... What if reality is nothing bu some disease?" (Pg 215)[/[/PHP]CODE]

Hmmm.... deep. meatthinker, thanks for bringing up the "I" thing, that was very insightful.

chubbz, I seem to recall a part in a Nietzsche book where he uses an analogy that i think is along the same lines as what you're saying. He compares a human to a house, and he says that in order to build anything (to change the human) you have to first tear down the exisisting structure. If i understand what you're saying, it's like that, right? Have to hit bottom before you can start to go up?

in order to build anything (to change the human) you have to first tear down the exisisting structure. If i understand what you're saying, it's like that, right? Have to hit bottom before you can start to go up?

Pretty much... Heres a 'sorta' exact quote from Chuck:

"That we need to be more comfortable and more accepting of chaos, and things that we see as disastrous. Because it is only through those things we can be redeemed and change. We should welcome disaster, we should welcome things that we generally run away from. There is a redemption available in those things that is available nowhere else."

Back to the liminoid thing,

"Turner noted that in liminality, the transitional state between two phases, individuals were 'betwixt and between': they did not belong to the society that they previously were a part of and they were not yet reincorporated into that society. Liminality is a limbo, an ambiguous period characterized by humility, seclusion, tests, sexual ambiguity, and communitas."

- Cited from Wikipedia :D

"Liminality is limbo", I think best defines the word. A feeling "outside of time."

Alot of people who are in love say that, when they're with their significant other, they feel like there is nobody else in the world -- I've never been in love myself but I'd imagine this is everyones instinctual drive, to be in love, for that liminal experience. (You know, aside from the primal instinct to pro-create, and the narcissitic feeling of being needed.)

This is now my favorite thread. And I know everyone is sick of hearing about it (especially you Nate) but this Salvia shit is a direct link to exactly what you are talking about. You (LITERALLY) leave this reality for about two solid minutes. You can feel the hooks (mentally) bringing you back to reality. There are many ways to reach this state. Salvia is the easiest that I've found. Judging from a few of ya'lls posts, I'd think you've already tried it. This whole thread is describing, to a T, a Salvia trip.

I know everyone is sick of hearing about it (especially you Nate) but this Salvia shit is a direct link to exactly what you are talking about.

I'll quote Nate on this one, Salvia is gettin' real popular 'round these parts (Not an exact quote but give me a break, its late). The only recreational drugs I abuse is vicodin, oxycodone, alcohol and tobacco...

And besides I got the rest of my life for people to experiment with other types of plants that'll take you to the afterlife and back.

I'm going to set up a table in front of my house with burning sage and candles and my frame drum. I'll put up a big sign that says, "Liminoid Stand." Liminoid time for a small donation. Of course, as ever, really bad puns are free.

I don't know if this counts, maybe I misunderstood the thread, but back when i was 16 and bought my first car, it had no radio. when driving extremely familiar routes (work to home, or home to work, any route taken frequently) I would experiance what I considered hiccups in memory. My memory would completely blank out from when I left work, to when I was standing at my front door. The theory of time being a book, and we can "drop" the book and pick it back up at a lower chapter than we left off, what if we could drop the book and instead pick it up farther ahead? Just a thought.

I don't know if this counts, maybe I misunderstood the thread, but back when i was 16 and bought my first car, it had no radio. when driving extremely familiar routes (work to home, or home to work, any route taken frequently) I would experiance what I considered hiccups in memory. My memory would completely blank out from when I left work, to when I was standing at my front door. The theory of time being a book, and we can "drop" the book and pick it back up at a lower chapter than we left off, what if we could drop the book and instead pick it up farther ahead? Just a thought.

I wanna know how it went. But the last post in this thread is a month ago, so... i might not ever find out. Garrett, if you and your 13 posts are out there reading this, i wanna know how your salvia trip went!

Personally I think the "I" is a newer development in human history. Ancient cultures placed so much more on the "We" and so individual desires were often cast aside (this is places like sparta)

I believe the modern sense of torment and depression comes from the new choices we have, and freedoms. I for one think freedom's are a great thing, but one the one hand we are taught "do whatever your true self feels is a good thing" and on the other we are taught "2.4 kids, 2 cars, a house in the sub urbs, and retirement after a long career in a well paying job bring happiness" We are told genders are equal, but we raise boys and girls in seperate worlds. Especially with boys, we supress certain behavior and place emphisis on sports and cars. Girls get off a little because they have begun to liberate themselves from a dominated position, men however have just begun to liberate themselves from the dominant position (think stay at home dads). So it's this sense of "I" being unique and yours alone that conflicts with the expectations of the culture. I think this is where we get the Id and the ego and the super ego.

To get back to the point of the thread, The big experiences i've had were when i stepped out of my I or my ego. the first was when i was 16, I was sitting on a couch because i had a cold so i stayed home from school. I had just had a fight the day before with my girlfriend and as i fell asleep i felt like i zoomed out far, like somewhere between the end of the air and the moon, and then zoomed back until i was reliving the fight from my girlfriend's view. I didn't grasp everything she, or i....er yeah was saying because after a few moments my concious clicked back on entirely from the experience, but i did snap back into my body with the emotional imprint still fresh, I had a real rush of anger and enderment that didn't really feel like they belonged to my mind.

the first time something happened like this i was at icthus (a massive christian rock concert) a bubble in the stormclouds had encircled the mass gathering for the last words before we all packed up and left. They actually showed us the doppler radar, a small dot above us has formed above us and remained there for 4 hours. we saw clear skies, people 6 miles away had recieved 4 inches of rain. after that they handed out communion and we all said the lords prayer, something just clicked in me and i felt incredibly small, at the time i thought it was god, and it is this experience that keeps me a spiritual agnostic in place of a full blown atheist. (spiritual because i am sure there is something magical out there, connecting us all. I do believe in being a friendly person for this reason.)

another time i was rowing in a race, and my whole boat got into an unbroken rythem, i suppose it's teh same thing as your drum circle, but we all traced out and pulled far into first place, i don't even remember the first 1500 meters of the race after we got past the start. Then someone got a little out of time and the boat slammed to the port side as their oars got stuck in the water, we recovered but we never got the trance back and as a result we got past by 2 gorilla filled boats (my boat was full of guys under 130 lbs) and came in 3rd

I've started practicing zazen meditation as a means to try and capture this sensation, since it seems ot be closely related to "enlightenment" so far i've caught glimmers, but it's really hard to turn off the concious anchor to your mind

there have been a number of times in my life in which the "linear" model of time seemed to be about as advanced as the telegraph. where i live, in alaska, during summertime there are a number of festivals with a similar feel to the burning man festival but on a much smaller scale. during these events, a simple three-day weekend becomes a topic of conversation for years after. each moment recalled in vivid detail by all participating parties. i often wonder if it is the act of recalling and discussing these events that gives it a sort of parallel existence. how it always seems fresh in the mind like waking up from a lucid dream. leaving you with that feeling that you've accomplished something, even though it isn't tangible.

I wanna know how it went. But the last post in this thread is a month ago, so... i might not ever find out. Garrett, if you and your 13 posts are out there reading this, i wanna know how your salvia trip went!

My first time trying acid. I had accidently took too much, basically, it was way stronger than anyone had thought. I ended up ODing, seizuring and all that but previous to that I had what you're trying to explain. I guess (I don't really remember any contious bit of it as I was completely lost in my mind) I kept telling people I understand infinity and a lot of other abstract concepts. Another one was that bit of 'nothingness' and 'everything' combined. I keep seeing things as too bright and too dark, too loud too soft, opposites together, but I guess thats a bit off topic. Later in the abulence and hospital I felt as though I had reached the deepest and darkest depths of insanity. That I had reached that level of no return. I even had a word for it but unfortunately I can't come to it completely. I still have flashbacks, mainly when I smoke weed but sometimes just randomly. If I read/hear/see/whatever something that blows my mind I fall into this trance-like mode and feel a bit like I'm tripping again. I'm not sure if thats exactly what you mean although you said theres no real answer to it, and I'm definitly not the same since it. My concept of reality is completely something different, at times it even scares me with the possibilities it brings.

I have similar experiences when I listen to certain kinds of music. Namely Pink Floyd and Between The Buried and me. I think this also applies: I play bass. Sometimes when I get stoned and play guitar everything seems to slow down and I'm in perfect rythym with my body and mind. I can play things that I could barely play before. Or, I can play certain songs by ear that I couldn't before.
I've done salvia and mushrooms. A salvia trip wasn't long enough for me to have any experiences like that-and all my friends and I did was trip out in a forest. But with shrooms I always get a sense of linear time as a bendable or even breakable time. Especially on the highest peak of a trip. I often remember everything that happened the day after the trip, but it's always in a jumbled order that makes no logical sense, but seems to fit perfectly with what I experienced while tripping.
Garret, you need to try salvia. Try it with people that are looking for the same thing it seems you are looking for: enlightenment. Take about life, nature, beliefs, spirtuality, music, movies...whatever bends your mind at that time. Whatever gie you a new or heightened perception.

Also, I'd like to know more about liminal and liminoid time. So if anyone knows any good books to read to help my understanding, let me know.
And king_of_nothing, I'd also like to learn more about zazen meditation. Are their any books that you'd recommend or anything else that might educate on the subject.
Thanks!

Hey abel, To learn more on zazen, (and i strongly encourage checking it out), i suggest reading "the three pillars of zen". I'm not sure who the author is...
Or you could just go to wikipedia. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazen[/url]

anger or rabies is the last protection for the desire of control, rant was practically a big boy with no desire or ambition, the shock of facing reality give him rabies to the piont of becoming adictive.

after getting over the anger it is followed by an existencial grip eventually total pshycological indepoendency i.e inmortality no time.

Important Disclaimer: Although this is Chuck Palahniuk’s official website, we are in essence, more an official ‘fansite.’ Chuck Palahniuk himself does not own nor run this website. Nor did he create it. It was started by Dennis Widmyer, who is the webmaster and editor of most of the content. Chuck Palahniuk himself should not be held accountable nor liable for any of the content posted on this website. The opinions expressed in the news updates, content pages and message boards are not the opinions of Chuck Palahniuk nor his publishers. If you are trying to contact Chuck Palahniuk, sending emails to this website will not get you there. You should instead, take the more professional route of contacting his publicist at Doubleday.