My community orchestra just got music for our next concert. We are playing the Beethoven Violin Concerto in D Op 61 which calls for C clarinet in the Larghetto movement. Before I brute force the transposition, does anyone have the part transposed for either A or Bb clarinet or know of a source? We'll need both Cl 1 and 2.

I transposed this by myself into B flat, and it has everything (dynamic, cue notes, rehearsal marks etc.) from the original part (Bärenreiter). Hopefully it looks better. I know some people here consider that Beethoven used C clarinet for the bright sound to match solo violin, so maybe play it on B flat clarinet is a slightly better choice.

> I transposed this by myself into B flat, and it has everything
> (dynamic, cue notes, rehearsal marks etc.) from the original
> part (Bärenreiter). Hopefully it looks better. I know some
> people here consider that Beethoven used C clarinet for the
> bright sound to match solo violin, so maybe play it on B flat
> clarinet is a slightly better choice.

I play this piece frequently and find that it is preferable to play the 2nd movement on A clarinet for two reasons. Firstly, since the 1st and 3rd movements are on A clarinet, your clarinet is "warmed" up if you play the 2nd mvt on A. This is particularly important in cold halls.
Secondly, and more importantly to me, after playing it many times I have realized the 2nd movement sounds better (resonates more) in Bb major (on A clarinet) than in A major (on Bb clarinet).
For example, in mm 13 and 14 on Bb clarinet, clarion C#, D# and G# are all produced by side keys and resonate a bit less than their equivalent D, E and A on A clarinet. This extra resonance is more apparent in dead halls.

This rationale (the extra resonance of "pure" fingerings) has been explained by other players on this board when they suggest playing the solo in the slow mvt of Shostakovich 5 on Bb clarinet instead of the printed A clarinet. More notes resonate well in C minor (on Bb clarinet) than in C# minor (on A clarinet) because more are being produced with "pure" fingerings, as opposed to side fingerings.
In addition, some find the intonation of side fingerings less good than that of pure fingerings and legato is smoother between pure fingerings than between side fingerings.
See Gregory Smith's explanation of this on this board in past discussions of the Shostakovich 5 slow mvt solo.

I personally don't think "warming up" is a problem as so many symphonies also have like only one movement for another clarinet. On German system, we use side keys all the time, so to me, it doesn't really matter either.

Thank you Klose and Jeroen for providing transcriptions. I appreciate having the choice between Bb and A, but was grateful for anything. Since I do have the choice, I will probably use the A part for convenience since it doesn't appear that anything else on our program will be on Bb.

This is a community orchestra. Our soloist is a professional and we have a number of local music teachers in the group. However probably 75% of the orchestra (especially strings) are amateurs. I doubt that subtle nuances in tone between C, Bb, and A clarinet would be noticed. At the elite professional level there are probably valid reasons for utilizing the original C clarinet part, but for lots of groups its just a headache. I can't justify the expense of purchasing a C clarinet that would be used so seldom.

I sure wish publishers would provide a transcription in the same way that they sometimes provide both Bb and A parts. This part is short enough that had Klose and Jeroen not kindly provided transcriptions I could have slowly done it myself. However the time I needed a lengthy Strauss waltz transposed, it was beyond my ability to accomplish in any reasonable time. I had to get a musician friend to help me.

> Roughly what percentage of actual professional clarinetists own
> a C clarinet? If less than 100%, do the others create printed
> transcriptions, or do they transpose "by ear"?

50 years ago, when I was still studying formally, every clarinetist I knew - including the Philadelphia Orchestra players - routinely transposed C parts to whatever clarinet lay more conveniently. At some point later in the century, clarinetists began buying C instruments. I think the movement toward authentic performance with period instruments made people re-think even playing more modern music on instruments other than what the composer called for.

There are lots of classical pieces with C clarinet parts that are much easier to handle technically on the C than on either A or Bb. I would not support the idea of only publishing transposed parts where the original is for C clarinet. Since I own a C, I would much rather play Rossini C clarinet parts and pieces like Moldau, Mozartiana and the third movement of Tchaikovsky's 2nd as originally written on C clarinet. It would be helpful if publishers would also provide transposed parts for players who don't own Cs, but, for me, not at the expense of including the original.

To your last question, most "classical" clarinetists when I was in my teens and twenties learned to transpose most C parts at sight. You might write out especially tricky passages. Some players (annoyingly for me) wrote (write) transposed letter names above the printed C clarinet notes. This can at best be a distraction to other players who use the part. At worst, it can cause mistakes to be made when the person writing in the letters writes the wrong note. I know that in some cases back in pre-Finale days the Philadelphia Orchestra librarians wrote out transposed parts for the clarinetists - I have a copy of the hand-written Eb clarinet part to Til Eulenspiegel that was used in the orchestra. I don't know what they do in the major orchestras now - The Philadelphia Orchestra owns C clarinets and a D clarinet, so transpositions are probably no longer needed.

I don't like 'arguments by authority', but when they seem to be invoked, I feel that I should weigh in.

Of course, I don't care at all what you, MSK, do.

But, Beethoven thought it worthwhile to ask for the C clarinet, when he had no particular technical reason to do so. And when I ask myself why? in the context of this particular movement, I think that I understand the musical reason.

If I were to play it on the A clarinet, I would try to emulate the ethereal quality of the C clarinet in that register and dynamic. And what I find is that I can do that better on the Bb clarinet. So, lacking a C clarinet in the past, I played it on the Bb. There is no intonation issue really: the Bb isn't 'warmed up', but you can anticipate that problem.

Nowadays I play it, on modern and period clarinets, on the C.

I have respect for the other contributors here; but, don't believe them.

Tony, we certainly respect your choice of using C clarinet here. However, your understanding of the musical reason is only yours. In other words, it is also possible that Beethoven simply asked C clarinet randomly here without considering the reasons you think.

I think it's quite perfect that we now make an A/B flat set as the standard setup for every orchestral clarinetist. Adding a C clarinet is not something expensive, but it will only make other things, like travel, instrument maintenance etc. more difficult. Also, C clarinet also has more severe intonation problems by nature, which is the major reason no composers write for them anymore.

>> Tony, we certainly respect your choice of using C clarinet here. However, your understanding of the musical reason is only yours. In other words, it is also possible that Beethoven simply asked C clarinet randomly here without considering the reasons you think.>>

Not plausible, in my view.

Anyway, what a crappy argument. Compare: Beethoven writes an A natural here; but I prefer an Ab, and it's POSSIBLE that Beethoven wrote an A natural carelessly in this case.

>> C clarinet also has more severe intonation problems by nature, which is the major reason no composers write for them anymore.>>

When I posted my transposed part, I knew that this old guy, Tony Pay, will jump in stubbornly as always here. When you hear some flutists play Brahms clarinet sonatas or Mendelssohn violin concerto, I guess you must want to kill them, right? OK, let's all find a good C clarinet, Tony, any model to recommend? Buffet has only one professional model, any other brands are making it?

I notice that it is a trend that some mediocre orchestras like to ask their players to use the so-called authentic traditional instruments because they use this as a marketing strategy to attract people or in other words, if they play on normal instruments, few people will buy the tickets. Tony Pay in the past mentioned his orchestra also use natural horn and gut string violin etc., so there is no wonder he strongly believes C clarinet must be the choice here.

Not sure who is this guy, Tony Pay, but I feel his post is very rude and his logic is as crappy as his post. Well, maybe he is too old so we should not blame him. Here I just want him to know that there is something called interpretation. Even when composers wrote a metronome mark on the score, conductors and musicians can slightly alter it as necessary. A lot of conductors also do things like doubling woodwind, using bass clarinet in lieu of bassoon and other things like these to interpret their own ideas of the compositions.

The idiot idea that Beethoven picked some instrument at random, and that such a theory is logically superior to the idea he had actual reasons for scoring a C clarinet, and then the idea that period instrument practice is all a marketing ploy by inferior musicians, and then the idea that someone must be old to make silly objections to the above . . . . give me a break.

Those posts were by people who rarely or never otherwise post on this board, except this Klose person, who has posted a few times recently, and predictably they're anonymous. Typical for keyboard warriors insulting those far, far above them.

Tony, am I wrong to associate the modern increased use of C clarinets at least partially with the period instrument movement? Studying in the '60s and even into the early '70s, I really knew only one person, and he was not an established player at the time or, really, ever, who owned a C clarinet. We all at the time learned to play most of the major C parts on Bb, mostly without written out transpositions.

What changed in the performance world to bring C clarinets back to the extent they have?

> Tony, we certainly respect your choice of using C clarinet
> here. However, your understanding of the musical reason is only
> yours. In other words, it is also possible that Beethoven
> simply asked C clarinet randomly here without considering the
> reasons you think.

If Beethoven didn't care, why change instruments at all. He's more likely just have left the A clarinet. It only makes sense that he changes either because of the key or because of the sound. Or, as the argument often goes, the composer picked the clarinet because of the key but wrote the part in a way that took account of the tone quality of the clarinet he chose.

You can make arguments for playing everything on Bb and A clarinets, but to argue that Beethoven's choice may have been random doesn't seem reasonable. Your choice as a player is to follow the composer's instructions or to ignore them. You only need be honest about it when you make your choice.

I am in agreement with Tony Pay, kdk and Philip Caron with their observations.
I own a C clarinet, and have found that each time I've used it in a professional setting I have found it rewarding in some way or other.
That said- last time I played the Beethoven I recall I actually just used A clarinet for the whole piece. I'm a bit embarrassed to say I can't remember exactly WHY I did this (esp as I had used C clarinet in the previous concert for the Verdi Requiem... I have a feeling I might have forgotten it for the rehearsal and so for the dress/perf just stuck with what I'd used at the rehearsal).
I had never even SEEN a C clarinet until I was studying at CCM in the 1990s, and was given the use of a 1970s era Buffet R13 C clarinet that played very nicely in tune. For two years I used that thing a lot (including performing the Berg songs on it when someone flew off to Europe with my E flat clarinet, and playing first violin parts in a string quartet when all the string players absconded to Aspen). I was blissfully unaware that C clarinets are apparently hard to play in tune, and very thankful that someone else had paid for the darn thing.

When I returned to NZ in 1998 only ONE of the professional players I knew had access to a C clarinet, now there are quite a few floating around- I believe this to be a result of the INTERNET making it much easier to order one or to find out what is available, and to find 2nd hand ones (both mine and my colleague in the Auckland Chamber Orchestra play on 2nd hand instruments that would have been very difficult to locate/buy in the pre internet age). This is just a theory, argue away if you must.

Perhaps it is true that the Historical performance movement inspired AWARENESS and CONSIDERATION of what the composers may have originally heard and has increased the willingness to play on the "key" instrument the composer intended. AS someone who "came of age" musically in the 1980s it just seems like a good idea to me. It certainly doesn't take much thought to work out that a C clarinet (modern OR historical) MIGHT have different qualities than an A clarinet, and a little bit of experimentation confirms this.

At any rate- we are lucky to have this resource, woodwind.org, and people prepared to provide transposed parts if we really feel we need them. In this instance it is of no use to me, but in the past it has been very useful to be able to put the call out for a transposed part (Strauss Oboe concerto a year or so back comes to mind, thanks to John Peacock)

That is, that what you finally play on is determined by all sorts of things: the quality of the instrument you have available, the temperature of the hall perhaps; and so on.

The most important thing in all music is to ask yourself, what was the composer after, here?

How seriously you take that question can depend a great deal on the composer. Simon Aldrich, a previous contributor to this thread, has gone on record here as saying that he finds that the composers he encounters mostly don't care much about what instrument you play their music on.

But he hasn't encountered Beethoven. Faced with a genius like Beethoven, I'd quail as a musician, as I imagine most of us might.

The best I can do is to try to ask myself what he wanted from me in his music. And if he (say) wrote for a C clarinet, and I don't have a C clarinet available, I try to imagine what he imagined he would get by writing for one – whether I do that on an A clarinet or a Bb clarinet.

Simon thinks that resonant fingerings are his most important consideration. I don't agree, because I remember the wonderful passages for solo violin and two C clarinets in the Missa Solemnis, which passages significantly resemble some aspects of the violin concerto. Here, the sound-world of the C clarinet is a very important contribution, I'd say.

I've quoted Charles Rosen here before, but here it is again:

Quote:

It is the duty of a player to play what he thinks is musically correct, regardless of what the composer wrote.

But it is also the duty of a player to do his best to convince himself that the composer knew what he was doing.

Wow. I never thought I'd set off so much comment over a transposition request. Since I have 7 weeks to prepare for the concert, there is plenty of time to try both Bb and A parts to see whether one works better than the other for my situation. Since this is an amateur orchestra, what works out for me may not be indicative of what a professional clarinetist in a professional orchestra would decide. Some of our members are still working on playing the right notes in the right rhythm... I have come to realize that the choice of instrument isn't necessarily about ease of key signature, or carrying around an extra instrument.

I am curious. Are the different characteristics of modern A, Bb & C clarinets comparable to the differences between period instruments in the various keys? As an amateur who doesn't have access to a C clarinet, I have even less access to period instruments.

>> I am curious. Are the different characteristics of modern A, Bb & C clarinets comparable to the differences between period instruments in the various keys? As an amateur who doesn't have access to a C clarinet, I have even less access to period instruments.>>

Yes, they're comparable.

As I said, though, it's not that they NECESSARILY have a different sound. Your own way of putting it is closer to the truth. They have different CHARACTERISTICS, which you can work either with or against.

For example, I said that I can get closer to what I imagine Beethoven meant in this case by playing on the Bb, rather than the A. That's because the Bb instrument TENDS towards a lighter, floatier sound in the upper register, so I can bias my sound more easily in that direction (towards the normal tendency of the C clarinet) than I can on the A.

And the same is true on older instruments. The sound we make in a particular context isn't just what the instrument provides, because we significantly influence that by our 'address' to the instrument – embouchure, mouthshape, choice of reed and so on.

So we can go further – in a particular direction – on one instrument than we can on another.

If you're interested in this, then you're on your way to being a serious player. As musicians, one of our preoccupations is creating different 'voices' in a particular piece. There is no ONE SOUND on the clarinet, well played.

My question on this thread is didn't clarinet players around 1800 show up to rehearsals with a suitcase full of 2 to 5 key boxwood clarinets in numerous keys? Seems to me I've seen such cases on the internet with 5 or more clarinets pitched at C, Bb, A, G, Eb, D, F, etc.. The player would use the clarinet pitched such that he dealt with a minimum of accidentals. In other words if the music was written in the key of C a C clarinet would be used to avoid accidental fingerings if he used, for example, a Bb clarinet.

A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.

>> My question on this thread is didn't clarinet players around 1800 show up to rehearsals with a suitcase full of 2 to 5 key boxwood clarinets in numerous keys? >>

We don't really know the dynamics of these situations at that time. (Certainly, they wouldn't have been rung up by a fixer.)

>> Seems to me I've seen such cases on the internet with 5 or more clarinets pitched at C, Bb, A, G, Eb, D, F, etc.. >>

I defer to you on this. I haven't seen such cases myself.

>> The player would use the clarinet pitched such that he dealt with a minimum of accidentals. In other words if the music was written in the key of C a C clarinet would be used to avoid accidental fingerings if he used, for example, a Bb clarinet. >>

Where did you get that assumption from? Surely the composer's instructions came into it.

By the way:

A great teacher encourages students to ask themselves the questions that the teacher sees will move them forward.

Hello. I did not see the attachment for the Bb transcription, and I play Bb in a community orchestra as well and we are going to be playing this piece. I was wondering if you would mind sharing your transcribed piece with me? Thank you so much!