In reply to bouldery bits: The article is quite an interesting read but the first line is misleading.

To quote one of the antagonists "Chris's point of view is very understandable and although I am against red-tagging, I respected his wish. My intention is not to wage war with anyone or make anyone feel bad, I just want to climb and have fun.

This was not the end of the world for me and there's so much good climbing in Catalunya, that you're never going to run out of routes to try."

I couldn't disagree more... For starters this isn't so much News and a current topical comment piece. Secondly this is really interesting stuff, climbing business interests getting upset about climbers having the temerity to attempt publicised projects!!! Not sure I like that at all.

Have Dave and Danni made some gentleman's agreement not to climb the route but to be primed for the 2nd ascent? Is that going to be worth anything anyway?

I appreciate the commitment to bolting a line rather than attempting a boulder problem or trad route, but clearly at this grade it's not the bolting that's holding up the ascent but working the project. I suspect the time and work involved in bolting the line is insignificant in comparison. Why is it so important then? If 99% of the effort is working the route then why does the 1% effort of bolting the line justify a completely different approach to sport routes? Seems inconsistent to me.

Yes it's tough on the guy who 1st spied the line and then bolted it to have his ascent snaffled by another, but if it's really all about learning the route and training for the moves then I'd say "them's the breaks".

Also if you don't want to draw the attention of Finnish climbers don't pre-publicise an ascent. If you want to whip up interest then it seems fair to expect competition.

Unaware of the controversy this no doubt will cause, Adam Ondra has returned to Cataluña and made a quick FA of what used to be the First round, first minute project, now renamed To je vtip. Adam says it all went a whole lot easier than he had expected, giving it 8c+/9a. More about this later!

I don't know who owns Catalunya? Or what the access arrangements are in Spain? Or whether H & S law is similar to that in the UK?

However I can imagine the following scenario...

...if the landowner considered that Sharma and Nalle's rivalry over their percieved ownership of a route on his land could put them at risk, then presumably he could exclude both of them on the grounds of his H & S duty and civil liability, or confiscate their equipment (that certainly seemed to apply to base jumpers in Yellowstone - at least in the past?) or he could simply de-bolt the line? Do access rights go as far as a right to bolt rather than a right to climb?

Of course none of this is likely to happen, but it does rather put this little issue into perspective... 2 fleas arguing who owns the dog - if they become enough of a nusiance might the law support a landowner's decision to take their toys away?

In reply to Wrongfoot:
Have you actually read beyond Mick's (as per usual) sensationalist headline? Neither of them is claiming ownership of the rock or the route, Sharma has simply requested that after spending time, money and effort into cleaning and equipping this line that he is afforded a little more time to try it. Dave and Dani were on the route to bring fresh beta to help Chris.

Of course I have, that was why I suggested it as an imagined scenario not a real one. What part of "imagine" and "not likely to happen" do you find difficult to understand?

As a little thought experiment it seemed to make clear to me how stupid and counter-productive arguments over perceived ownership of a route could be. The only owner recognised in UK law is the landowner, and the landowner has particular liablities and duties which don't sit well with sparring climbers.

Can't we rely on climbers being gentlemen and not knicking each others routes?

Projects I find I try and do as quickly as possible. If someone else finds them it's fair game. If I tell them then it's a bit unfriendly for them to go and nick them. If someone did steal a project I was doing i'd be a bit miffed, but just find something harder that they had no hope of doing. It's all possitive compition really.

Don't think sharma can really say no one can try it,after all he has more projects on the go.letting other climber mates try it is keeping it has his own little boys club.sounds like big-up productions are having a big say it.

I was not intending to discount everyone's opinion who is not a bolter or FA'ist, only to emphasize that the perceived conflict had been greatly and somewhat viciously escalated by people who were not directly involved. I definitely respect everyone's right to express an opinion, particularly on the broader general questions regarding the concept of red-tagging.

Also, the sales numbers cited and the implied dollar amounts are overstated and might give a false impression that we are making piles of money off this business. In fact we spend about half our time producing outside commercial projects and doing freelance shooting and editing work to help supplement the income from the climbing work and keep the climbing film side of the business sustainable.

In reply to Rob15: I guess you're right, as everyone knows, no one can ever be trusted to tell the truth, and everything you read in all media everywhere is lies. Except for some bloke in the pub of course.

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll: Yes, when I made that single statement, I was actually commenting on every news paper and broadcast in the world, amazingly perceptive of you to pick up on that from one statement.

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll: The kind of politics that surrounds these sort of issues in all sports, those involved real opinions don't usually tend to come out until after the fuss has died away a bit, I wasn't commenting on the media in general.

> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> Hi Mick,
>
> Just to clarify a couple small points:
>
> I was not intending to discount everyone's opinion who is not a bolter or FA'ist, only to emphasize that the perceived conflict had been greatly and somewhat viciously escalated by people who were not directly involved. I definitely respect everyone's right to express an opinion, particularly on the broader general questions regarding the concept of red-tagging.
>
> Also, the sales numbers cited and the implied dollar amounts are overstated and might give a false impression that we are making piles of money off this business. In fact we spend about half our time producing outside commercial projects and doing freelance shooting and editing work to help supplement the income from the climbing work and keep the climbing film side of the business sustainable.
>
> Just trying to keep the conversation accurate and constructive.
>
> Thanks,
> Josh Lowell
> Big UP

saw a great thing at stanage once. we were at the popular end with loads of climbers chatting and climbing away and all of a sudden it went very, very quiet. i was a bit puzzled suddenly realising that ron fawcett had turned up and was just doing a bit of afternoon soloing. bet sharma wouldn't have that affect

You gotta laugh at Sharma saying this bit of rock is 'really important to his personal development'. Like it would suddenly cease to be important to his personal development if someone else found it was important to their pesonal development first.

I don't care much about who makes the FAs of clip-ups anyway, but hypocrisy on that scale is always worth a laugh. Thanks, Mick.

"You gotta laugh at Sharma saying this bit of rock is 'really important to his personal development'. Like it would suddenly cease to be important to his personal development if someone else found it was important"

Anyway, apart from the fact that UKC is trying desperately to concoct a story here, this is how I see it.
Sharma has found the line, spent time and MONEY bolting it, Nalle Hukkataival should go away and try something else.
Stop crying.

> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> You gotta laugh at Sharma saying this bit of rock is 'really important to his personal development'. Like it would suddenly cease to be important to his personal development if someone else found it was important to their pesonal development first.
>

The full, accurate, quote is " I was so close to do the route which for me is a really important line in my personal progression "
this makes it clear that he's talking about physical progression as a climber, your misquote implies something else.

Sounds pretty cut and dried to me. Sharma spends x amount of time on this and hasn't given up on it yet. Why would Nalle decide to try it under the cicumstances? So he gets miffed that Dave Graham and Dani Andrada are allowed on it- it's clear to me that they are allowed on to help assist the project.
If I bolted a new line the last thing I would be up for is for some random to come along and attempt to nick it....
It is selfish, but if you've spent a day hanging and bolting a line it's a simple matter of respect for other climbers not to not trespass on it until you're done with it/ climbed it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
The irony is that earlier in his career Sharma was only too happy to knobble other peoples projects. Notably Hasta La Vista in the Compton Cave at Mt Charleston, Yaniro had toiled hard to set that route up and really wanted Sharma to lay of it...but to no avail.

Then, as now, the issue is not ownership..you should give yourself a little slap on the wrist for phrasing it that way Mick.....the issue is about respecting the enormous amount of effort that it takes to establish routes.

Though I have to say that in the light of Sharmas previous activity, he's the last person who should be crying foul now.

In reply to UKC News:
Chris Sharma - perhaps the most famous climber of all time.
Give me a break !
What about Whymper, Mallory, Heckmair, Buhl, Hillary, Tensing, Brown, Whillans, Bonatti and Messner ? Just a few names that come to mind !

I'm not sure how him using the expression 'personal progression' makes it clear that it's his physical progression he's talking about. If that's what he meant you'd have thought even a Californian could have said 'physical progression'.

Anyway, whatever he said it's pretty clear that what he meant is "I was so close to do the route [FIRST] which for me is a really important line in my personal [CAREER]", but that he thought some psychobabble would sound better.

yep there is a difference. this article is about a rock climber. I suppose you could split hairs and narrow that down further to the best bolt climber. Rock Climbing and Mountaineering are two different pursuits

Ali first puts Liston down 1 minute and 44 seconds into the fight and the ref stops it at about 2 minutes and 15 seconds. It's the third minute at worst and second minute at best then isn't it? I truly am sadly pedantic aren't I?

In reply to grizz:
I do know the definition of the word climber - but to make sure I checked it out on Wikipedia.
''Climber - a participant in the activity of climbing''
It goes on to give 13 climbing activities which include : bouldering, competition, ice, mountaineering and rock. Doesn't actually say sport but I'll include it anyway.
Chris Sharma was introduced in the article as a sport climber / boulderer and this is probably what he is. The statement that I questioned was of his being the most famous ''climber'' of all time.
All those names that I suggested were great and famous '' climbers'' and if I had to pick one that was the most famous of all it would have to be Ed Hillary.

In reply to jon: i hadnt read the thread when i posted that - apologies. but (unless im mis-understanding something) does somebody not suggest that this was an april fool's day joke ie Adam hasnt done it?

In reply to UKC News: Most rocks including limestone have probably been there for 100,s if not 1000,s of years they are not owned by anyone in this state and anyone has the right to climb on them if they wish to. I think that Chris has some nerve trying to prevent an individual climber from trying a route which he had initially discovered and has not even completed yet and allows other climbers such as Dave Graham try it. if there is such a thing as owning a route surly it is once you have made the first free ascent of it.

In reply to quarryboy: The "ownership", or at least the right to ask reasonably for others to stay off it, develops with the time and effort (and money) put into cleaning the line, equipping the line and then working out how to actually cimb the thing, which can take ages and shouldn't be disregarded, it's a lot easier for someone else to come along and just ask how.

> (In reply to UKC News) World class routes are a finite resouce so just putting a bit of time and money into it does not mean you have right to it.
> What's wrong with a bit of good old route rustling.
>
> How do you expect the next generation to challenge the likes of Sharma and Ondra if it's frowned upon.
>
> My rational was allways bolt a project and try like hell to do it before some body else did.
>

That's the predator's point of view, I imagine the prey sees things differently.

In reply to Serpico: personally, i think in this sort of situation, between two world-class climbers on a route at the cutting edge, the predator is just showing a bit of panache and style. especially when the route was going to feature in a dvd selling the sharma image.

i'd imagine sharma is more p!ssed that someone was physically able to climb it before him rather than the fact that the route was red-tagged.

David Lee Roth does climb, apparently: his bio (at http://www.davidleeroth.com/bio/david-lee-roth.php) says "Now an accomplished outdoorsman and climber, Roth has led many trips into the Himalayas, New Guinea, the Amazon, and the South Pacific." You learn something new every day.

In reply to skullgrid: Another one who still gets a frequent mention from non-climbers of a certain age is "that French burd who does it free without ropes or nuffin", presumably Catherine Destivelle. Even though I don´t think she´s been in the news for quite a while she seems to have stuck in the memory of a lot of middle aged blokes out there.

To those who think that that the above somehow happened on the 'internet'. Well no it really happened, between two people, in daylight, at a real crag, below a cliff with some bolts drilled for protection following an overhanging line of poor holds. It was started by a blog post. Then transferred to outside, then the incident was then expressed by real people, including the two protagonists, on the 'internet'.
------------------------------------------------------------

Now this is what didn't happen.

This is on the internet, this is made up(although I did write it in my office after a bouldering session at Stanage last night, that bit is real).

------------------------------------------------------------

Nalle: Hi Chris, Wassup? Great to meet you and great to be down here away from the frozen North. How's it going?

Chris: Hi Nalle. It's going well. Welcome to Cataluña. I love it here. Great to meet you. I've heard so much about you. Want to hang out?

Nalle: Would love to.

Chris: Meet Dave and Dani and the rest of the crew.

Nalle: Hi everyone. Looks a great route Chris. How's it going on it?

Chris: Frustrating. I've got redpoint swamp. Keep coming back, keep falling off the last move. I really want to do this route. I read on your blog that you would like a go on it.

Nalle: Yes I'd love too. Would that be OK?

Chris: That's fine, be my guest. Dani and Dave have been trying it too. More the merrier. I'll belay you if you like.

Nalle: That's really kind of you Chris. Thank you. I would love the opportunity. If by chance I'm getting close, I won't even consider a red point attempt.

Chris: That's kind of you Nalle. It means a lot to me this route. I remember last Fall looking at it, spying the non-holds and thinking that it might just be possible for me. Then bolting it, didn't take much actually. It was hard work, but not like proper work like hanging a door or changing a car engine, you know, a proper job.

- they spend several hours working the route that soon will become First Round, First Minute -

Chris: Good effort Nalle. What do you think of the moves?

Nalle: I don't know Chris. That's hard. I bit beyond me at the moment. I can see it, but wow! You are doing great on it, won't be long now.

Chris: Thanks Nalle. Really good to have a strong and talented climber like you on it and to get your opinion. Fancy coming back to my place tonight? Dave is making paella, he''s a great cook. There will be music later. It will be good to chill.

Nalle: Would love to. Thanks Chris. Be a great end to my holiday. Got to go home in a few days. Got some great projects in Finland. If you ever fancy it, you'd be welcome at my home and we could work some of the unclimbed boulders I've found in the forests.

I for one am looking forward to Chris Sharma completing this climb and I will watch/buy the film by Big Up of him doing it when it is available.

It's a great climbing story. Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion sometime. Adds colour and richness to our pastime. People are far too sensitive these days. Always makes me laugh that if you question or take the piss some call one a 'hater'

i still think there is a difference between a climber and a mountaineer. Different things go through the mind of somebody sat in the death zone for a night and somebody doing a 7a move above marginal gear

In reply to grizz:
Hello Grizz - don't want to get too pedantic here but I thought I had defined the word climber. We are all climbers - from top roping at Burbage and Harrisons to climbing the Eiger or Nanga Parbat.
Add the word sport or even rock to the first sentence and I quite agree with you.
However, all this is beside the point- my original letter questioned the description of Sharma as the most FAMOUS climber of all time.

In reply to UKC News:
Life is simpler down in punterland where I climb! If I bolt a route I get the bolt credit anyway which is the more important, if I can´t climb it it´s a free project, if I could climb it but haven´t yet anyone can come and do it in the meantime but their name will never appear in the guidebook!

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