Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union. It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent. In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Am I the only one here *not* fluent in Polish? That *was* Polish, wasn't it?

I'm aware of that. Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar.

Try google translate.

Are you trying to make some kind of point with that comment?

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union. It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent. In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union. It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent. In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense. You did what? Provide a translation? Or dig up corpses?

And what was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union. It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent. In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense. You did what? Provide a translation? Or dig up corpses?

In that texts it is written that Kuncewicz was desecrating Orthodox cemeteries. Some of you wrote there are no proofs for that, so I provided them.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Usually, where I come from (the USA, where English is the predominant if not official "official" language), when someone really wants someone else to read and/or understand a book or article or essay or whatever that's in a language foreign to them, it is they who provide the translation.

Which would work except for the fact that the violence was perpetrated by the anti-unionists against those who were supportive of union. It was self-defense on the part of the unionists or those who were indifferent. In the Slav lands the indifferent were bullied into taking an anti-union position.

Your selective history is about as accurate as that of Fr. John Romanides.

Kuncewicz was famous for digging up corpses of the Orthodox people and throwing them for dogs to eat. So much of self-defense.

That didn't make much sense. You did what? Provide a translation? Or dig up corpses?

In that texts it is written that Kuncewicz was desecrating Orthodox cemeteries. Some of you wrote there are no proofs for that, so I provided them.

A. I wasn't one of those asking for "proofs", although I could have been .

B. You provided the "proofs" but not in a manner legible or understandable to the vast majority of posters here.

C. What was your point with this comment: "Otherwise a Jewish person wouldn't have a picture of a Polish antisemite as an avatar."?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

Sorry if my feelings offend many of you from either 'side' - i.e. our Orthodox 'side' or the Roman Catholic 'side'.

Frankly - there is only one side - that of God. The dead will have to account for their lives at the final judgment day - not just the saints of the title of this thread but all of their biographers as well - including those who spread calumny and falsehoods and exaggerations for their own secular quasi-religious agendas.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

As you so often do, you cut through the crap that many of us, myself unfortunately included, tend to spew forth here. Well said. We make the work of the above-mentioned prince and his minions all too easy. Thanks for the reality check!

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.

The Catholics don't need to worry. We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.

The Catholics don't need to worry. We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

Or perhaps not all Orthodox are hiding under the beds to slaughter the poor Catholics in the dead of night.

Perhaps some of us are just fricking sick of all this pointless bickering which only serves the demons of triumphalism and deceit. Perhaps some of us are tired of seeing the same parties engage in mutual verbal masturbation over their pet subjects. No, we don't have to read it (that's on us), but we also don't want people who may be interested in Eastern Christianity seeing just how much we "love" one another.

All this in this shadowless light of Pascha.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 03:46:17 PM by Schultz »

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.

The Catholics don't need to worry. We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

Perhaps I've misinterpreted both of you, but I don't think podkarpatska's intent was to duck any uncomfortable realities. Rather, it strikes me that he is attempting to keep the tone at least civil, even if we think each other incorrect about this, that, or the other. The tone on this board, at least on this sub-forum, has a tendency to pretty rapidly degenerate into, as you say, calumny, unwarranted and childish sarcasm, and outright nastiness, all of which is totally unnecessary, even if we disagree with each other.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.

I don't know if that's true or not, but I think there can, at times, be a certain tendency on any forum to disallow opposing views.

I don't know if you saw it or not, but St. Josaphat was also discussed a few weeks ago (before Alex started a thread about him) on another part of CAF, namely the group Our Eucharistic Journey. First there were some very positive statements about him (e.g. "Lord, fill your Church with the Spirit that gave Saint Josaphat courage to lay down his life for his people.") Then there was a post by me, in which I quoted from byzcath

Quote from: Irish Melkite

We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.

This disappeared not too long after, and this was posted:

Quote from: Amiciel

It may also be helpful to re-post here some of our earlier messages on the Group's Wall when we started the Group. They shed further light on the purpose of our Group. Here they are:

November 2, 2010 - "In our Journey, the Eucharist will be our springboard. It is not our primary goal to engage in a purely intellectual, systematic exercise to accumulate knowledge. Rather, our hope is that we become better acquainted with Our Lord, appreciate better what He has done for us, and end up with a better understanding of His unique purpose for each of us."

Thus, messages leaning towards speculative arguments, discussions or debates (which may be helpful) are best posted in other groups created specifically for this purpose. Thank you and may the Lord bless us all!

which I take to mean that pro-Josaphat posts are allowed there but anti-Josaphat posts aren't.

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.

The Catholics don't need to worry. We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

Or perhaps not all Orthodox are hiding under the beds to slaughter the poor Catholics in the dead of night.

My dear, I don't think that is at all the issue in this particular discussion.

We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.

If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...If I knew these things then I would not allow that comment to stand unanswered on any Forum of my own keeping.

I would not however make it disappear. I have never complimented CAF for their native genius.

We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.

If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him

anyone NOT in the custody of the Polish king?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

We live in a different time. That said, I'll offer this thought, which will probably cement your opinion ... While I imagine that God will reward St Josaphat for whatever holy things he did in life, I rather doubt that he'll be rewarded for burning Orthodox temples or killing Orthodox Christians who declined conversion. I also expect that the same distinction will likely be applied in judging those Orthodox who murdered Josaphat. Why? Because God is a Just God.

If I knew that there was no evidence but one brief letter of complaint about Bishop Josaphat to the negative, with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...If I knew these things then I would not allow that comment to stand unanswered on any Forum of my own keeping.

I would not however make it disappear. I have never complimented CAF for their native genius.

M.

They did allow the statement "His fidelity to the Roman See and his desire for union between the Ukranian Church and Rome led to his murder at Vitebsk (in 1623).

Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

The 17th century was a fun time in the western world. If I recall it ended in the new world with the Salem Witch trials.

This thread is pointless and counterproductive - especially during Paschaltide. Shame on everyone for dredging all of this up again.

I guess we didn't think to check with you first.

No, but you all ought to check in your own hearts before blathering away. Nothing funny here as these canards have gone on for centuries from both camps and many souls have been lost to the prince of darkness along the way.

One thing that I always find interesting is that there is always someone willing to shut the discussion down, but never an admission that the proofs of terrible wrong-doing are slim to non-existent in either case.

So I wonder at the intent of the conversation monitor after all is said and done...

Forgive me for saying so but I cannot help but think the idea is to duck an uncomfortable reality for the Orthodox.

The Catholics don't need to worry. We have our saints and the research necessary from the devil's advocate to clear their names of such calumny.

Mary

Perhaps I've misinterpreted both of you, but I don't think podkarpatska's intent was to duck any uncomfortable realities. Rather, it strikes me that he is attempting to keep the tone at least civil, even if we think each other incorrect about this, that, or the other. The tone on this board, at least on this sub-forum, has a tendency to pretty rapidly degenerate into, as you say, calumny, unwarranted and childish sarcasm, and outright nastiness, all of which is totally unnecessary, even if we disagree with each other.

Thank you. I tend to take much of hagiography with, shall we say, a 'grain of salt' - especially so in the case of 'controversial' saints - be they of the Church undivided and of the post schism saints of BOTH the east and the west. This is particularly so in the case of saints of the modern era in the western church as the whole approach to sanctification used by the west strikes my eastern mind as - well, bizarre.

The recent piece on 60 Minutes this winter about the canon lawyer in Rome who specializes in taking on these cases - with a retainer of course - really caught me off guard. Sorry my Catholic friends, but just because I try to be even minded and try to find common ground and calmer waters doesn't mean I buy your polemics or apologetics. (I have no use for polemics in any subject matter 99.9% of my time anyway, but that's a different story altogether.)

And as to St. Josaphat being murdered on account of his fervent desire for union, I suppose he was. After all there were others who had a fervent desire that union not occur on the terms he offered. Not all of those were religiously minded Orthodox believers- shocking revelation here - but there were secular princes etc.... who manipulated the situation on the ground for their own nefarious purposes.

Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

The 17th century was a fun time in the western world. If I recall it ended in the new world with the Salem Witch trials.

Not all of those were religiously minded Orthodox believers- shocking revelation here - but there were secular princes etc.... who manipulated the situation on the ground for their own nefarious purposes.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

I never heard of him the 16 years I was in the OCA that I recall. I first remember him from a Latin posting praise of him on the Eastern Christian Forum of CAF. IIRC it was another Latin who posted the letter of the PL Chancellor complaining to Josaphat on his conduct (digging up graves, beheadings, etc...) as the first rebuttal.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Y'all may find it really hard to believe, but if you asked 1,000 parishioners in a scientific poll from OCA and ACROD parishes who St. Josaphat was - 99.8% would have no idea whatsoever. We don't think about him. We don't obsess about him. He 'ain't' on the radar.

I never heard of him the 16 years I was in the OCA that I recall. I first remember him from a Latin posting praise of him on the Eastern Christian Forum of CAF.

To be fair, presumably it's a lot harder for ECs not to have him on their "radar" since Pope John Paul II established the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Saint Josaphat in Parma, in 1983.

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.

maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.

maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.

Maybe he can. You would not accept it in any event, Maester WoolPuller...

“The combination of sloppy work and over-the-top charges provides a textbook example of how a verifiably false account can be reported as fact in the mainstream media,” Rychlak said in the April 2012 issue of the Catholic League’s newsletter The Catalyst.

maybe he can explain how Card. Law ended up in the Vatican, away from justice.

Maybe he can. You would not accept it in any event, Maester WoolPuller...

I wouldn't be on the grand jury. Would they accept it?

Btw, you source disputed, not disproved.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

with far more documentation to the positive, including the testimony of people after his death who admitted to spreading lies about him...

links?

Yes, please! And I'll take my eggs over-easy! So kind of you to offer ! (Not that I'm particularly bothered, as I love sausage in most forms, but some here prefer theirs in patties. Now, is that Polish sausage, i.e. kielbasa, or chorizo, or spicy Italian? )

Sorry, but after our last little tiff about translation, I just couldn't help myself. Hope you see the humor, such as it is!

I just wanted to add in connection with my comment about we Orthodox not having St. Josaphat on our radar (and Isa's confirmation of the same) I don't think that it is a coincidence that if one does a Google search of the Saint - under any variety of his names or spellings thereof - you simply will not find any Orthodox source material or discussion about him for pages and pages of links- unless, like here, it is started by non-Orthodox. There are pages and pages of Catholic sourced polemic and apologetics in his hagiography - much of which makes him almost sound like a cartoon character rather than a once living person.

I go back to my point about hagiography - while on one level it may be viewed as positive instructions for the faithful on a Christian life well lived (any number of purposes - charity, kindness, martyrdom etc....) one simply can not deny the propaganda value it may also possess in the struggle between competing ecclesiastical structures during the history of Christendom.

I think that many Catholics - both east and west - like the stories of St. Josaphat because they provide them a 'comfort' level, if you will - which justifies their position regarding claims of being 'Orthodox in union with the Pope.' To call upon his intercession during Rome's 'Week of Prayer for Christian Unity' is insulting to any Orthodox from the most open-minded to the most traditional -regardless of their underlying feelings about ecumenical contact with the Roman Church and unity in general.

As to the revival of the cult of St. Josaphat in the late 20th century - that has as much to do with the heavy handed treatment of Ukrainians and Ukrainian Greek Catholics at the hands of the Soviets and their unwitting allies in the Russian Church as it does with reality.

As for Greek Catholic witnesses and martyrs, for me the real histories of 20th century men, like Blessed Pavel and Blessed Teodor and their resistance to the liquidation of their Greek Catholic Churches post WW2 speak more vibrantly and with more power of truth than do dusty 17th century stories borrowed in many ways from the calumny of the of anti-Semites of east Europe and the myth building regarding saintly lives used to educate peasants by both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches of that era.

That's why I think this discussion is destructive and pointless. And I would add, while I don't expect anyone to 'check with me' before starting a post - be prepared for a response with which you may take issue.