Signs of the Sun and Moon before the Day of the Lord

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

This is referring to solar and lunar eclipses, where the sun will turn dark, and the moon can turn a red color.Usually the eclipses of the sun and moon occur 2 weeks apart, and not on the same day.

I have gone to the NASA website to find the upcoming predictedsolar and lunar eclipses, and picked those in which the sun will eclipse first, followed by the moon2 weeks later. I did this because the scriptures mention the eclipses in this order.These are the dates which fit this sequence between 2008 and 2020.

The “type” in the chart is the type of eclipse expected, in case that can influence the appearance and color of the object.

sun

type

moon

type

1-Aug

2008

T

2008 Aug 16

P

13-Nov

2012

T

2012 Nov 28

N

10-May

2013

A

2013 May 25

Nb

1-Sep

2016

A

2016 Sep 16

N

2-Jul

2019

T

2019 Jul 16

P

21-Jun

2020

A

2020 Jun 05

N

Note: from another post about the Beijing Olympics, that the first one above occurs at the time of the 2008 Olympics.

From what the NASA website indicates, it seems like the total eclipse will yield the blood moon more than the other types.

So for this reason, I am giving the next chart, which gives all the eclipses grouped by year, and irregardless of whether the sun eclipses first or not. The tan color indicates eclipses in the same month.Total eclipses for the the sun are in blue and the total eclipses for the moon are in red.

Notice that there is a total eclipse of the sun, followed by a total eclipse of the moon 6 months later in 2012, and 1 and 6 months later in 2015.Is this part of the tribulation? The tribulation is 7 years of the wrath of God. Will it occur between 2012-2019?

If so, then the total eclipses of both sun and moon in 2010 will be the prophesied signs before the “great and terrible day of the Lord” which may begin in 2012. Will the 2010 total solar and lunar eclipses be mankind’s final warning?

sun

moon

1-Aug

2008

T

2008 Aug 16

P

26-Jan

2009

A

2009 Feb 09

N

22-Jul

2009

T

2009 Jul 07

N

2009 Aug 06

N

2009 Dec 31

P

15-Jan

2010

A

2010 Jun 26

P

11-Jul

2010

T

2010 Dec 21

T

4-Jan

2011

P

2011 Jun 15

T

1-Jun

2011

P

2011 Dec 10

T

1-Jul

2011

P

25-Nov

2011

P

20-May

2012

A

2012 Jun 04

P

13-Nov

2012

T

2012 Nov 28

N

10-May

2013

A

2013 Apr 25

P

3-Nov

2013

H

2013 May 25

Nb

2013 Oct 18

N

29-Apr

2014

A

2014 Apr 15

T

23-Oct

2014

P

2014 Oct 08

T

20-Mar

2015

T

2015 Apr 04

T

2015 Sep 28

T

9-Mar

2016

T

2016 Aug 18

Ne

1-Sep

2016

A

2016 Sep 16

N

26-Feb

2017

A

2017 Feb 11

N

21-Aug

2017

T

2017 Aug 07

P

15-Feb

2018

P

2018 Jan 31

T

13-Jul

2018

P

2018 Jul 27

T

2019 Jan 21

T

2-Jul

2019

T

2019 Jul 16

P

26-Dec

2019

A

21-Jun

2020

A

2020 Jan 10

N

14-Dec

2020

T

2020 Jun 05

N

2020 Jul 05

N

2020 Nov 30

N

This is just speculation, but if the Mayan calendar is right about time “stopping” in December 2012, then the total eclipse in November 2012 would be the warning sign right before this event, to signal the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Notice that the next set of eclipses would occur 7 years later, corresponding to prior to the end of the 7 year tribulation.

This is to also acknowledge that eclipses have always occurred, so one has to combine this data with other data that is also out there that agrees with prophecy.

I guess we will have to wait and see.But it would be good to be spiritually and physically prepared if any of this is correct.

Update – 4-27-08

This morning I received a video of a profound TV program by J.R. Church and Gary Stearman of Prophecy in the News, whose scholarship I have always greatly respected. A guest on the program is Pastor Mark Biltz, whose teaching emphasis is Jewish roots and who has also extensively studied the dates of solar and lunar eclipses from NASA and other astronomical resources, and how they line up precisely with Jewish feast days in the year 2015.

The year 2014-2015 on the Jewish calendar is a Jewish sabbatical year, as is 2008, which Mark Blitz thinks is prophetically significant. Here, I am not sure, since sabbaticals, for the most part, have happened every 7 years throughout Jewish history. But listen, and make up your own mind.

A “tetrad” is a rare series of four blood red moons. This will not only happen in 2014-2015, but it is a historical rarity that they will all be on significant Jewish feast days. (I agree, but remember scripture said the blood moon had to be accompanied by a dark sun.)

Pastor Biltz has discovered that the last time it happened was in 1967, the year of the miraculous Six-Day War when the Temple Mount was captured, and the one before that was just after Israel became a nation in 1948, all truly historical and prophetic years. This is extremely significant. Those two years, 1967 and 1948, are two of the most significant years in all of history.

In 2014-2015 there will be 4 lunar eclipses and 2 solar eclipses, all on Jewish holidays, including Rosh Hashanah in 2015! This will not happen again in this century

Their speculation- but interesting:
They discussed that 2008 is also a sabbatical year, and that 2015 minus 7 years is 2008, and the possibility that the 7-year Tribulation will begin in the fall of 2008! In connection with this, they noted the ominous signs of imminent war in the Middle East, possibly nuclear.

If that is true, this means the rapture could literally be at the door! Be ready. Do not be caught asleep, or your lamps without oil. Be filled with the Spirit, and as Jesus exhorted, “Watch!”

Personal note from Marianne here: My idea was that the Ezechiel 38 war had to occur first. Once that happens, we can start looking at the sun and moon.

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761 Responses to “Signs of the Sun and Moon before the Day of the Lord”

Many people quickly say that the fact that the moon will turn blood red is simply a ploy. I always found it true and it’s right there in Revelations. I personally do not believe we can set a fine estimate on when the day shall come, but it is easily noiticable that it’ll come soon.

If He (God) wouldn’t give you a sign of when the time will be then less people wouldn’t be saved as a True Father he warns of everything that his Children need to know, and the rest it’s distractions (world system) that owns it’s own Children. God doesn’t need to prove anything to anyone unless it’s part of His plans, for all with the true mind of Christ stay strong and keep the Faith in the truth of our Lord, Amen

God cannot lie: His scriptures must come true or He would be untrue Himself and be found a liar: That could never happen, the only thing is that man can miss interpret His scriptures which are from His inspiration; see 2 Tm.3:14-17, 2 Pt.1:20-21; 1 Pt.1:10-11; The only question we should be worrying about are we going to be found without spot or wrinkle and blameless, which is perfect as our Lord is perfect, for this is what He is going to require us to be accroding to His words of truth, as we see here in Jn.15:20; Ehp.5:27; and Mt.5:48 from the Old Testament in Gen.17:1; God changes not, Mal.3:6 see also Num.23:19; Tit.1:1-2; Heb.6:17-18; Mt.5:17-20; Heb.13:8; Mt.24:35; Many are called but few will be chosen, Mt.7:13-14; Mt.20:16; 22:14; Without Righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharasees no man will enter into Jesus’ rest and without Holiness which comes from being bron-again of His Holy Spirit, with signs following as in Mk.16:16ffs, baptized in Jesus name, Ac.4:12 because there is no other name by which we must be saved; if we are following Jesus’ Apostles words which were ordained of Jesus, Jn.15:20 for only they had the keys to heaven, even Jesus said man is not

Man is not to leave out one jot or title untill all things will be fulfilled, and only those who are found in His fields of harvest obeying His every given scripture will be found to His likeing and in His will which is His word; see Mt.12:30-32 and 46-50′ for many will say Lord Lord in that day, Mt.7:15-27; see Lk.6:46; Jesus said IF you love me keep my commandments, Jn.14:15; Jesus said in Mt.4:4 that man does not live by bread alone but by every owrd out of the mouth of God! Lk.4:4 same verse only from a different point of view, must be imporatant I would say, after reading Jn.8:51 with verse 47 in mind beings only those who here God’s words will receive Him and know who He is in Jesus Christ who is both Lord and the Christ, Ac.2:36 and who is Lord of All, Ac.10:36 who died for us with His own blood we are saved, but we must know who Jesus is or we will die in our sins, Jn.8:24 and unless we know Jesus is the Father and when we have seen Him we have seen the Father as Jesus said in Mt.14:1 You believe in God then believe in Me

see Mt.14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

For this reason if we are not born-again of His Spirit we are none of His and never will be: Ro.8:1- 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. We have been bought by the blood of God; Ac.20:28 because Jesus’ Spirit is the very God amnifested in the flesh, 1 Tm.3:16 see Mt.1:23 our Immanuel who is God with us, see Is.40:3 who was John the Baptist preparing a way for? see Mt.3:3 but our Lord of all God with us who is the comforter as well as our secret who is wonderful, the Almighty God, see Is.9:6 the one who will never give His glory to another; see Is.42:8 and 48:11 as well as 1 Cor.2:8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. I have much more to say to you but you cannot bear it right now, but after the Holy Spirit come upon you He will bring all thruths unto your reconning, the Spirit which the world cannot receive because it sees Him not and does not know who Jesus really is, write to me and I’ll be glad to give you all that He has given unto me to give unto the world who is hungry for the truth because we must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, Jn.4:24! GaryLordsWay@aol.com
Lords Way Ministries
By Rev. G. L. Boyett
Thur.24th, 2013 in the last days in the tribulation!

WOW! How could this be wrong? This is very, very significant and very,very important times…. This is our loving Father giving us hints and trying to prepare us for HIS SON JESUS to return for us… We need to pray for revival to continue to break out so the lost can be found!!! Come Lord Jesus Come! God Bless All, Patty

Thank you, and God bless you for your comment. I hope many people start to think harder about the upcoming years. The timing of what will happen in the world is one thing, but each person has their own time line, and time to leave this life. WE need to be prepared either way. Each day God gives us is a gift to reflect and get closer to Him.

We have been so excited since watching the video interviews with Pastor Blitz! Whether our Lord returns this year on the feast of Trumpets or not, this finding has made us excited to be WATCHING for our Lord’s eminent return, which is what He told us to do. He is so gracious and full of mercy and I believe He has allowed these things to be discovered for “such a time as this”, to warn His children and give us new hope and excitement!

Nice to have you. I agree that the Lord is gracious, and wants us all to be prepared. For there are many that are actually suffering, either due to man’s inhumanity, or for the sake of the gospel, and it is heart warming to think that a message, saying something positive will happen soon, will give these people the strength to endure to the end.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; let us watch and be sober…1 Thessalonians 5:4-7

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: AND HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME…John 15:13

The Lord will warn us of things to come, the watchman will agree together to sound the alarm, that the bride will prepare herself for the coming of the Bridegroom that we might be forever in the presence of the Lord. Praised be his name, Yeshua will soon sound the Shofar to announce the end of this age and the restoration of all things.

What do you think of Matt 24:29 – Immediately AFTER the distress of those days … “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it’s light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.”

This is a quote from Is 13:10 – however, if we read from the beginning of chapter 13 we notice it is talking about Babylon.

BTW, one more comment on Isaiah – today – right now – on display in Israel is the Isaiah scroll that was obtained from Qumran. It is interesting to note that this scroll was unrolled at the very same moment that Israel was declared a nation by the UN in 1947.

Could it be that this is a WITNESS to Israel at this very moment in history? I believe it is … I hope Israel hears

I was just thinking of that. Jesus mentions a time where saints will be going through tribulation…and then he says AFTER…..then he shows up….

the book of revelation discusses tribulation and wrath separately…tribulation comes first, and then wrath….the combination also seems to take longer than 7 years.

it is possible that the end times is divided into 2 parts…first the tribulation, where the saints are still around….THEN the wrath….( right now everyone calls the entire period “tribulation’) which may not be accurate)

the interlude between the 2 periods may be the solar and lunar eclipses, as a sign to the saints that Jesus will be coming soon afterwards…..maybe it is a kind hint to prepare and “look up.” The bible says that the devil will wear out the saints and win over them at one point….having a sign that their pain is almost over may give encouragement to the saints.

I think the Jews are very serious – and excited – about the end times, like we are. Being close to them, I know their anticipation. They look to Jerusalem and pray every shabbat for the Messiah to come. It is a dear thought to me that someday, hopefully soon, the Jews and Christians will be on the same page as to who the Messiah is.

Times as here… I’m not sure how much more really needs to be done, but I “feel” there is an urgency for the word to be shared.

This is what “I” think … and of course, who am I?

Joseph is an example to who Yeshua is – at least to the believers.So, therefore, we should look at what happened during that time. It was during the 2nd year of the 7 years at the time of the famine that Israel came to Egypt to get help and then be delivered by Joseph. Joseph then revealed himself. The 2nd year? out of 7 …

Also, how long was the time of the plagues in Egypt? How long from the time Moses was told to go to Egypt and deliver the people? I don’t think that time period was overnight. There had to be years involved … but how many?

The answers to what we see in Joseph and Moses can be answers for today.

IMHO – The 2 witnesses could be Moses and Aaron – sent at the time of the exodus to be witnesses – Moses = Torah and Aaron = the priesthood (levitical system) Both need to be here at the time the Lord returns. Which they are today. Both in the Messianic (believers in both Yeshua and the Word – Rev 1:9,12:17, 14:12 just to name a few …) and in the Jewish community.

Like you said, the timing is still up in the air. But everything seems to be in place. I am looking around for something I missed.

For those that do not believe yet, the Word has to be summarized concisely, with the main point obvious, because most people do not have much time on their hands to read. So that is always a challenge, when there is much to say.

I had a dream last night I ran away from home, and then the police brought me back. I ended up getting drafted to go to a war. My brain is in a meltdown I think….. 🙂

To date a little over 800 scrolls – 200 +/- of which are scripture, 200 +/- of which are sectarian, 400 +/- are commentaries and extra books, ie. The Book of Jubilees, others of the apocrypha, Enoch, and commentaries that the sect wrote. One of which is the War Scroll … fascinating finds …

IMHO – these tell us what they were teaching/reading during the times of Yeshua. The Book of Enoch is like reading the book of Revelation. Fascinating.

Also, did you know, the apocrypha, which has been taken away from believers for the last few centuries, has returned. It was originally canonized, and remained in the Catholic Bibles, however, during the early printings for mass production, it was cost prohibitive to include all 88 books. Hence, we have 66. We’ve been cheated.

I should preface, the scroll book is the extra books … fabulous read, but there are scriptures as well, and they should be reviewed, to check consistently with scripture. Pretty much right on – after 2000 years !

I am looking at the War Scroll now…really long and detailed, so I am first glancing over it. Interesting it has a reference to the use of horses…which is something connected to the fall of babylon in revelation. ..also assyria has always been an enemy, so why do people think the USA is the antichrist? I will go back in more detail later…..

I agree the book of Enoch is great. I think the reason it was left out of the King james bible is due to the many Angles it talks about by name. Most folks could not read back then, so those in charge gave a heavy dose of Christ with little elce.

According to Al Gore, it is mankinds co2 that is causing problems with the weather. But, we all know it is the Sun. The world would rather follow a lie, than repent. The Goreacle is all knowing.

This is just a reminder Leatherneck and in case you did not know that the whole Bible, Old and New Testament, and those written in Hebrew as well were outlawed, as the Books of Enoch, were outlawed by the Catholic Church for a thousand years. This is why the scriptures were only ever read in Latin and translations were only ever done through the Latin Vulgate. Christianity per say did not outlaw it, it was outlawed to Christians, Jews or anyone who were neither Catholic Clergy or the Monarchies and their Royal blood lines, outlawed for all to read or have a copy by the Catholic Church who wanted the world to believe they were the only authority for such reading and it gave them power over all beilievers. A terrible and gruesome power indeed.

As a matter of fact reading was outlawed to all other peoples so when Christian dissidents started to teach ordinary people or their servants etc, they and the servants could be burned for it. It was the Christian dissidents who brought back the Open Book ( the Bible) the Word of God back to the people. This is why the Open Book was chained to the altars in English churches so it could never be closed again though it took someone like Henry VIII to bring this about in separating from the Papal Church for his infamies, it servedf a greater purpose so when we read at all today it is a fact that many Christian dissidents and Jews for sure paid for this Blessing and honor with their blood to restore the Bible to mankind and the world.It was once thought that the Dead Sea Scrolls were lost but copies were brought out from Ethiopia when discovered by Bruce James and translated by Lawrence and Charles. The fact is that Jews always read the Book of Enoch alongside the Old Testament books which is why so many quotes are found in the Scriptures. The thousand year rule of the Papal Whores was the time of the Dark Ages and this mainly is what made them Dark. All were subject to understanding disctated by the Popes and their Monarchies. This is a darkness indeed. The books of Enoch are beautiful and full of Enochs prophecies of Jesus, the Son of Man coming to earth etc.

These facts and history are not often taught in churches because well meaning Christians always take it as criticism of Catholicism and Catholic Christians as well as pointing out that it is so long ago it should not be brought up all the time but, it has effected 2000 years of the History of mankind and still today stops Christians from looking deeper into the real roots of Christianity and the real roots of Catholicism. The fact is that Jews would be put to death if found with copies of the Books of Enoc, as much as Christians would be. What an infamous past is hidden.

Leatherneck, Foxes Book of Martyrs by John Foxe is an incredible read of the slaughters of these dissident Christians by the Catholic Church during this period of this Dark History. We have a very old copy but they are readily available today through a number of Christian outlets.

You say that Scriptures ‘the Sun turning to sackcloth of hair and the Moon becoming as blood before the Great and Terrible Day of The Lord’ are referring to eclipses.
Solar and Lunar eclipses have occurred since the dawn of mankind.
Why would that be indicative??
Wouldn’t one think that BEFORE the GREAT AND TERRIBLE day of The Lord
that some other kind of event other than an eclipse would signify The Lords’ Grand Entrance???
Have you researched if some other event other than a Solar or Lunar eclipse
could happen to cause these signs in the sun and in the moon??
I personally doubt very much that the Scriptures here point to a mundane type phenomena.

The eclipses are just one indicator. They have occurred since creation, and are a familiar event.

I think they only contribute a small time point to let us know possibly what time of year it might be, or which year may be excluded, so that we can see the timing better.

Each sign is for those who have put hope in Jesus to deliver them. it helps them mark their progress through a great tribulation. What happens first,…then what happens next…and finally when will it be over?

Revelation starts with 7 seals. Once we see the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse ride out, false peace, war, famine, and death of saints, we can then look to the next set of eclipses and an earthquake to let us know the wrath of God is about to begin.

So why do we need to know that? because for those who are suffering through the tribulation, they need an endpoint…how much longer do they have to endure? what sign do they look for to know that Jesus is coming to rescue them? once the martyrdom has started, they will look to the next set of eclipses to know when it will be over.

I’m relatively certain that the darkened sun and moon are not due to any eclipse. First of all, they happen at the same time and eclipses would be at least ½ month apart. Second, eclipses only last a short time, cannot be seen by everyone on earth and have no ill effects on the planet. So who cares?
In Rev. 9:2 it speaks of the fiery abyss being opened and the smoke from the furnace rose up and darkened the sun and the moon. Possibly a super-volcano such as Yellowstone.
So Rev 6:12 most likely refers to a similar event causing a similar dust cloud. Sounds like nuclear winter to me.
So I think that trying to lock in a time frame by this passage is a colossal waste of time, but it could be fun I guess.

I kind of agree with you. I have been looking for a better explanation besides eclipses. I explored this view to see how it worked out. Although it does not say that the sun and moon will turn dark on the same day or same time, one gets that impression from the context.

Sorry but I didn’t catch the UFO coming thru the wormhole. Also, if it were a wormhole (which is still science fiction right now) the earth would have been sucked into it if it opened that close to the surface. Just ask any astronomer or science fiction writer.

A full moon … a full blue moon …. a full blue moon eclipsed …
a full blue moon eclipsed on new year’s eve.
Don’t think that 2010 will be a very happy year.
Unless The Lord God comes quickly to our help …

I wouldn’t worry to much, them fact that the earth casts its shadow onto the moon on any particular day will have no effect on human affairs. And besides, there is no significance to new years day with the Lord. He set the beginning of the year to March 21 at the time of Moses. The Romans added January and February to the calendar and made Jan. 1 the beginning of the year. They also began the day at midnight rather than sunset and created the Julian calendar. I’m sure God doesn’t give a crap about Caesar’s new year day.
The world is certainly headed for doom and we will need Jesus’ return to save us, but the moon won’t be the cause of any of it.

🙂 Well I’m glad you see it that way.
I know about the julien calendar.
But if we look at the moon as a feminine symbol and then read the moon shall turn to blood … makes one wonder when the earth casts a shadow upon its’ face. Especially at a festive time, which marks the commencement
of another period of time A.D.

The moon is certainly not the cause of anything except maybe … the tides and is responsible for clothing certain sea life…
And for mating and for other frivolous things … probably too numerous to mention.

Don’t forget that God’s calendar is lunar based. It consists of 12 30-day moonths and no provision for leap years. The Israelites added this feature later and changed the new year from march to fall (Rosh Hashanah). It makes prophesy difficult to figure due to the 5 day difference in one year.
A womans’ menstrual cycle appears to be linked to the lunar cycle and it was accidentally discovered that the human sleep cycle is also linked to the moon but only noticed if the effects of the sun are eliminated. It turns out our bodies need a 25 hour day but we run on only 24 which may explain why so many of us need a nap or siesta during the day.

The sun and moon turning dark or giving the apperance of blood or ecplises has happened many times and will continue to do so and no end yet. What the bible is refering to when it talks about Christ coming, the darkening of the sun and moon, is it will be darkened because of the shekinah glory (the brightness) of His coming. So also the fake (antichrist) will resemble this somehow but fake. You must see with spiritual eyes when reading Revelation.

While I applaud your creative thought and your poetic license here I doubt that it will be true. I did some quick calculations and for an energy source to appear so bright as to make the sun look like “sackcloth of hair” it would have to be at least 1000 times more powerful than the sun. This amount of energy would toast every living thing on the planet. This is only true of course if you take the prophecy literally. If you do then you must take into account the fact that the moon will appear red in color. For that to happen there must be a scattering of the shorter wavelengths due to small particles (like dust) between the moon and the viewer. This happens during lunar eclipses of course but it also happens at moonrise and moonset just as the sun is often reddened at these times. It also happens after volcanic eruptions (and occasional monster meteor strikes) as the ash enters the upper atmosphere. It would not happen under your scenario.
Also, the verses come just after great earthquakes, a volcano (mountain of fire) and a “star” falling from heaven.
It almost goes without saying that by the time the verse in question occurs, the atmosphere will most assuredly be filled with smoke, ash and dust, so the sun and moon will already be darkened well before the actual return of Jesus.
Your description may be true but if it is, it’s out of place.
But it’s still a swell analogy.

Yes, Jesus said that earthquakes will increase in the end times, and now, 2010, it is extremely shocking to look at the data.

The Bible also says that the sign of the coming of the Son of Man will be like the time of Noah. What happened during the time of Noah? Moral decay, violence, and everyone made fun of Noah, saying that there won’t be a flood, and they said he was crazy. Of course, there was no such thing as rain back then (as the Bible says), and they said a coming flood is scientificly wrong and they did not believe Noah.
But, the flood came! and took them away.

And this is exactly true today! We look at Bible prophecy and realize that Jesus’ coming is very near: earthquakes, pestilences, famines, wars and rumors of wars… but the secular people of today claim that we are mistaken and that everything is normal and going as ever before. Let us read the Bible and be at watch, trusting fully in the Lord of our salvation. 🙂
So, dear friends, when you see the skeptics, know that history repeats itself: this same thing happened to Noah before the flood. The same thing happened to Lot when he warned his family about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. So today, the nonbelievers will deride us. But this gospel will go to all the end of the world, and then the end will come.

Do not be afraid, not even a bird will fall to the ground apart from the will of the Father, and how much more will He care for us? 🙂

…”the possibility that the 7-year Tribulation will begin in the fall of 2008!..”

While watching the results of the election in the fall 2008…and when it became finalized that Obama had won….the Holy Spirit spoke to me very clearly and said “It has begun”. I will never forget that moment. I became physically ill as if I knew that I knew….so….perhaps the beginning of the 7 years is what the Holy Spirit meant…(here is some history behind this…as a little girl and hearing often of the end tmes…I would pray to G-D that He would let me know when the AC had come upon the scene so that I would not be deceived, I must of been aroun 6 or 7yrs.) Well, 36 years later, while watching yet another election among many, the Holy Spirit spoke and was very clear…”It has begun”. That is all that He said; He didn’t say who was the AC….so I am not accusing…but I am cautious at this point and have my eyes wide open!

Thank you for this post…it is very helpful; I can tell you put alot of work into doing it; great job!

Hi Grace,
You make a good point and I would like to add to it.
All prophecy has been for God’s people, not for people of other faiths. In the OT he was always trying to correct the Israelites primarily for breaking His commandments. Another example was Jeremiah who warned the Jews that if they did not mend their ways (worshiping idols and neglecting the sabbath etc.) God would withdraw his protection and allow the Babylonians capture them and destroy Jerusalem. These were all God’s believers but they had gone astray. God did not punish the pagan Babylonians. In fact he rewarded them with thousands of Jewish slaves for 70 years.
He did not reward the righteous Jews either. Even the prophet Daniel was taken prisoner and had to live out his life in captivity.
My point is that we can not sit back and assume us believers are fine and that only the non-believers are at risk. The Revelation is for the true believers. It is a warning to us, that we are not as perfect as we may think. We are still sinning – breaking commandments and doing things that we would not be doing if Jesus was here.
And He’s coming soon so it is time to get our act together before He gets here. This is the true meaning of Revelation – not the beasts and the antichrist and the seals etc.
Unfortunately, most Christians believe they don’t need the lessons in Revelation since they will be raptured to safety before the bad stuff comes down.
Noah went thru the flood, Lot had to flee from Sodom and Daniel and the rest didn’t escape at all.
As you said, history repeats itself and if it does, the true believers will not escape the tribulation. Hopefully, with the help of discussions like these, we will understand the true meaning of the Revelation before the time arrives.
God bless…

I have discovered that I was born on very special evening when Solar departed the Sun… and discovered that Solar has returned this year on my birthday… Small wonder why I always loved space and stars out there.. I can see details of them yet unable to explain unless I paint or draw.
So. Solar has indeed returned and it will become intense and explosive… And I kept getting funny feeling as if I keep returning to Winter… What does Winter and Solar got to do ? I had to ask what it means in those winter and solar missing dots…
Thank you all…

Tamera,
I’ve been an amateur astronomer for 55 years so maybe I can help you here. First, when is your birthday? And what do you mean by “solar departing the Sun?” Solar means “of the sun” so the phrase makes no sense to me so please clarify. And what do you mean by “returning to Winter?” Did I miss and earlier blog you are referring to?
Let me know and I will see what I can come up with.

Hi, James… I was born on March 4, 1972 at 8 30 pm. And I am not too sure.. all I know of Solar that related to sun which I agree with you there.. except not sure of solar position. I seem to react to solar, esclipse , and storms more than anything else.. Almost like mirroring their swing positions or rather moods goes with storm..
Okay, I will try to clarify a bit better.. I have seen in vision often shown of solar that seem dance around the unvierse and different kind of moon I never seen before…It looks rather tan more than white… They kept dancing and flaring.. but what makes me nervous is the way they flares so big.. almost like if a bomb went off. And I also kept seeing the winter because of the smell in air and snow in plain… So I cannot connect those dots… That’s why I asked… 🙂

Tamera,
Looks like there is a bit of a language difference here but I will try my best. It sounds like you are referring to solar storms and the 11.2 year sunspot cycle. These giant explosions on the sun can throw out all sorts of waves and particles that can affect communication systems, satellites and to a smaller extent lifeforms on the planet.
These storms peak every 11 years or so and they reached a peak in 1957, 1970, 1979, 1990, 2001 and will peak again around 2012. Your birth year was in-between peaks and this year is a quiet but increasing one.
So while the birthdays are not particularly relevant, your nervous system may be sensitive to the radiation thus causing the dreams. But the content of those dreams are another thing entirely. The sun can’t be causing you to dream about the sun, that comes from your subconscious. Since psychology is not my area of expertise, I can’t help you figure out what the dreams might mean, if anything.
But if they are caused by solar radiation, you can expect them to increase in the coming years, so time will tell eventually.
Good luck.

Wow, this guy is either a hoaxter or just a complete idiot.
Just start the video and pause it after 2 seconds. This will show the original, unmanipulated image. In this image, the circle is pale and ghostly. (Don’t be confused by the little green dot reflecting something in his room, probably from his camcorder).
In this image the circle shows it’s true nature – simple lens flare. Even though most modern lenses are well coated to prevent internal reflections, a very bright light can still bounce around the layers of glass and produce this “glare” on the film or sensor. A tip-off is its location with relation to the original light source. Flare always occurs diagonally across the center of the lens axis, so if the sun is in the lower right, the flare will appear towards the upper left. Often, especially with cheap lenses you will see a long trail of distorted reflections starting at the source and stretching across the picture, always crossing the center line.
The reflection seen here fits the bill. Also notice the ghosting all around the sun itself. You can’t even see the sun itself. Its all one big flare circle. This shows that the lens is not perfect quality and is capable of producing large amounts of flare. The exposure also has a lot to do with the amount of flare in the final photo and this photo is a bunch overexposed.
All the rest is manipulation in the iPhoto program (Macs rule) and I’m sure we are familiar enough with CGI special effects not to believe what the program generates thru software.
As for the conspiracy theory he suggests, if there really was an object there, and that large too, it couldn’t have disappeared the second his camera was done shooting it. And surely millions of other people would have noticed it and news cameras would have been turned on it immediately. So who else took a similar photo? Where did the object go? If it were Nibiru. and heading for Earth as may propose, why isn’t it even more visible now? Help, help! The earth is about to be struck by lens flare!
Come on folks, we are all too smart to fall for this story. Its good for a laugh is all. Don’t give it another thought.

Sorry James, but I know what I saw personally, with no lens cover, video etc…it was the strangest thing and would like to have an intelligent explanation from NASA as to what is really going on….see my post below.

OK, but if you are right, where is it now and why are you the only person to have seen it? Not one professional photographer, no news reporters, no scientists – nobody. Only you, it seems.
I can send you a photo with 2 moons in the sky and swear they were both there when I took the photo, but the photo would be as false as my claim.
I have been an astronomer/photographer since I was 5 years old and I know what is possible and what is not.
I suggest you submit your video to NASA or the National Science Foundation or even the National Geographic channel and see what they say. I’m sure if you are right, there are any number of TV producers out there who would pay big bucks for your footage and put it on TV.
When they do I’ll pay a little more attention.

This guy is another idiot I’m sorry to say. I read the article he refers to and here is a short excerpt…
“My surveys have always looked for objects closer and thus moving faster,” Brown said to Astrobiology Magazine. “I would have easily overlooked something so distant and slow moving as Nemesis.”
So, this object, which by the way has not yet been discovered, is super slow and extremely far away. I you do the math, even it were in a near-earth orbit, it would take thousands of years to reach the earth. And the odds that it would cross the earth’s orbit just when the earth is at that point are miniscule,
And nowhere did the author even hint at the possibility that the orbit of such an object, if it exists, would ever come as close to the sun as the earth. More than likely it has lurked at the fringes of our solar system since the dawn of time and will remain there forever, perhaps colliding with an occasional other object and maybe sending some pieces in a new orbit that might cross the earth’s path – a few thousand years from now of course.
Yet this guy calls this proof that we will all soon be killed by this mystery object.
This is tabloid journalism at it’s worst. Next he will have people selling all their possessions and joining some sort of cult – probably run by him.
Please folks, don’t buy into this crap.

This video is just as crappy as the one(s) above. Strange how the “object” has jumped over to the other side of the sun. And where is the news footage? Why did it only appear in this guys’ camera. Why are these images always so poor quality?
And why don’t these objects show up before sunrise? They only seem to become visible after the sun is glaring into the camera lens.
In this case the reflection appears bright, like the sun itself. So is the object a nearby sun? Is our sun actually a double-star?
Give us all a break. Get rid of this Crap and buy a better camera and a neutral density filter – at least 8x.

ok. It really does not matter.
Something of that nature can not hide.
Even here where I live I see it and do see something at dusk.
Soon there will not be any who will not see it.
And then what can we do about it?
There is coming a cataclysm of great magnitude.

You’re right Marianne. Flare from lens coatings (reddish) and wholesale reflections (white circle) is all there is. I don’t know how anyone can believe there are actually two suns in our solar system but they can’t both be seen except thru crappy cameras.
Even Copernicus would have to laugh.

Do you keep seeing 7?
I gave warning to others but others would not listen
It deceives many and many fall victim
Many false prophets
Just have faith and follow your heart
I am tired and weak and so are many
Please do not oppress or judge others, because we are all in a struggle
No one is chosen, because we are all born equal
The appearance of good can be deceiving

I find it odd that this artifact showed up on a single frame on the original video. That means it was only there for less than 1/30th second. If it were truly an object and not just a digital processing glitch it should have been visible for a while. Try to find the original source tape from a reliable source. It probably doesn’t show anything much. This still image could easily have been photoshopped as well. This is not proof of anything. Its just more trash tactics to scare people and to get their crap on the internet.

Hey look, more Crap!
I’ve been studying astronomy since 1955 and I’ve seen many similar photos of the sun taken with helioscopes since the 1920’s and they all show similar solar outgassings and prominences etc. They are not new.
The two phenomenon are not even similar. The NASA photo is only blue due a filter. Even the space and stars behind the sun are blue. There is no “black hole” at the other end sucking in the energy.
And they are short – only about 1 solar diameter long. The Norway photos show an event so big that if it were actually as far away as the sun would probably extend out to the orbit of Venus.
And once again there is the claim that NASA edited the photos to keep the truth from us. This guy should work for NASA since he seems to be way smarter than anyone else there. If they didn’t want us to know something they wouldn’t even release the photos in the first place.
It is far more likely that these idiots are doing the editing of the photos. Instead of buying Photoshop they ought to invest in a decent telescope and try taking their own un-retouched photos.
I hope when they all retire to their safe underground bunkers that they will no longer have access to the Internet and will finally leave us sane folks alone.

The idea that this even was out in space, near the sun is nonsense and is easily disproved. If it actually took place 8 light minutes away (almost 100 million miles) everyone on earth would have seen the same view and from one entire side of the planet.
However it was only seen in and around Norway, and when you look at several videos shot from different locations you see the event from different angles. In fact the event can be triangulated from these videos and placed at a particular point on the earth. And it has been: Norway, not outer space.
Either this guy knows nothing of science and has scared himself into a frenzy or is one more huckster trying to scare everyone else. Don’t buy into it.

This is an overexposed photo of the waxing crescent moon setting behind some pine trees. The overexposure causes a halo or glow around the bright lunar orb. Looks like there may have been a few hazy clouds nearby too. I just took a similar photo last month off my front porch. I even got my neighbor walking her dog in the shot. I’ve been taking pictures of the moon since I was 6 years old and I’ve got thousands in my collection. This is just one more crappy moon photo. It was apparently shot with a “normal” lens – neither wide-angle nor telephoto – then blown up after being downloaded to the computer.
As for the special effects, he used “reverse image” to make a negative of the original, then applied a filter called “bas relief” to get the 3-D effect.
I usually use grain (noise) reduction and Gaussian blur filters to improve the image quality then use a burn tool to reduce the overexposed halo.
If he had used a 500mm telephoto and an ISO of around 800 an exposure of 1/30-1/90th of a second would have produced a nicely exposed image maybe even good enough to show some lunar features like maria and craters.
Now that would be a photo worth looking at!
But I tell you what, I will take out my Orion telescope tonight with a high-power eyepiece (6mm) and see if the spaceship is still parked out there, and get back to you.
But haven’t we all seen a halo around the moon before? The most shocking photos we’ve ever seen? Really?
Give me a break.

Hi Abigail.
I saw this solar prominence on the news. It took place over several hours so this video is just a time-lapse speeded-up version repeated over and over many times.
These prominences are nothing new. I have a photo of an even larger one taken in the 1950’s. They are magnetic phenomenon related to sunspots, which are increasing lately.
Glad to see you are enjoying real science and videos without imaginary flying saucers in them.

This thing I have asked you to keep your eyes on … well
we now have a clearer picture of it …
and guess what … it appears to have moons.
And guessing by the speed of its approach it will not be long now!!
See it for yourself.http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/images

The items you are referring to a indeed big. They are the two inner planets – Mercury and Venus. You can go back into the photo archives and see them over and over since the telescopes were first deployed. NASA tells us what they are, they obviously know where the planets are all the time. These objects are exactly where NASA expects then to be.
So why do you believe they are alien spacecraft with hostile intentions? Because some kid named :WarriorKinging” says so? What makes him so smart? What are his credentials? He has a PC with a video editing program. So what.
I know for a fact he is manipulating the video in order to make long time spans seem like a few seconds, and he doesn’t mention that fact. He is trying to fool us. He is a liar and a false prophet.
He prophesies that space aliens are going to take over and rule the earth.
Do you believe that? I though that Jesus was going to do that. Are these beings more powerful than God? Will they defeat him and force us humans into slavery?
Is that what you are trying to warn us about?
If so I’m afraid you are on the wrong web site dear.

Thanks Marianne,
For those who have a hard time with Nasa’s site … this fine person has made the images available in a short video.
It depicts the pace and direction of the object TROUBLE in the last 24 hours.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Matt. 24:14.

Has this been fulfilled? Both yes and no. By radio, TV,
books and magazines, E-mails and Websites on the
Internet, it is possible to reach out above the whole world.
We can say that God’s gospel has been spread out above
the whole world. The problem is that those who are
preaching, and those who are writing in books and
magazines and Websites on the Internet, they have an
insufficient knowledge of God’s word. They have not
learnt the first fundamentals of the gospel of God.

Those who ought to be teachers, yet need to get teaching.
Hebr. 5:12. This is the state of most Christians today. They
are not able to preach or teach about the Assembly of God,
or about the baptism by the Holy Spirit. They are lacking
of this knowledge. They believe that the Assembly of God
is a Pentecostal church. Please, consider what this expression
“the Assembly of God” in the reality implies. The Assembly
of God must be the same as the Greek word “ecclesia”, and
the Body of Christ. 1 Cor. 12:12-31.

Then it is easy to understand that this has nothing to do
with the Pentecostal Movement. Pentecostal churches have
existed about 100 years, but the Assembly of God has existed
ever since Jesus baptized his first disciples by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit gave them the new life in Christ so that they
became born anew. Then the Assembly of God was born.
Since then, the Assembly of God has lived here on the earth
generation after generation.

The truth of the Assembly of God has never been preached
in the churches. Therefore, God’s people are totally
unprepared for Jesus’ coming. It is very urgent that all
God’s people understand the truth of the Assembly of God.

Nowhere in the Bible can, we find any hint of that the
Assembly of God is any church system, or that the church
buildings are temples of God, neither that the Assembly of
God is any organized movement. A living body cannot
become an organization, and an organization cannot become
a living body. Therefore, the Assembly of God cannot become
an organization. Nowhere in the Bible can, we read that they
organized a local assembly.

In the reality, the word “church” does not occur in the Bible.
I have five bible translations in Swedish. Nowhere in these
Bibles we can find the word “church” (kyrka). All churches
and free churches are religious black buildings, not founded
on God’s word.

I have studied the events of the Day of the Lord for many years now and I can tell you based on my study of the Bible directed by the leading of the Holy Spirit, my strong sense is that we are now in the 7-year Tribution Period. This period started with the elections of 2008 which will lead us to the ‘mid-point’ of the 7 year period in the Fall of 2012.

The mid-point is extremely important as it is a turning point of our world society from very bad to much worse (however, Jesus’ followers will be protected during this time – read Psalm 91 as just one of many examples).

The last 3.5 years – the Great Tribulation(from Fall 2012 to the Fall of 2015) – of this period (as foretold by Jesus as well as by the prophets Isaiah and Daniel) will be a cataclysmic fury of unparalled traumatic events for the earth and human-kind – culminating in the return of Jesus in 2015 to gather his elect on the Last Day.

I agree – let’s not talk “church” but rather use the more fitting term of “elect” as this is what Jesus refers to as his true followers. There is nothing wrong with churches per se but Jesus was opposed to any form of formal worship or structure that has the potential to lead people away from truth (that’s why the Pharisees – the ‘religious elite’ – hated him so much).

The truth of God comes from within us, not without. The church can be used as a guidepost or a calalyst if one needs it but there is no need for dependence upon it in order to find the truth of God and Jesus. Jesus said “You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” – John 8:32

Back to our times – Jesus himself said of the Great Tribulation period – (which culminates on the Last Day (Day of the Lord) – Matthew 24:21-27 – “For then shall be great tribution, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be, And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh saved; but for the elect’s sake, those days shall be shortened…..”

And yes, this will coincide with many spectacular and highly unusual events in the skies! Lots more to come.

HI Mary Anne,
” I can tell you based on my study of the Bible directed by the leading of the Holy Spirit, my strong sense is that we are now in the 7-year Tribution Period. This period started with the elections of 2008 which will lead us to the ‘mid-point’ of the 7 year period in the Fall of 2012. ”

Marianne KNOWS how excited I am right now to read your post! Can I get a witness people! YES and Mary Anne, your the witness!

So the only thing that makes sense to me is that we would be in the tribulation now with it getting “worse” around 2012 (last half of the tribulation) and then G-Ds wrath on, around or after yom kippur Sept 2015.

Of course, this doesn’t go over well with those who believe in the pre-trib. 😉

And…the HS told me to learn the Jewish holidays in Feb 2010 and again in March 2010 (only because I forgot)…Marianne and 2 other across the country, one in California heard a shofar/trumpet on Pentecost of this year.

Glad to hear that! I have studied this for most of my adult life and most seriously have concentrated upon the Day of the Lord study from about 1990.

I, like you, have never had stronger urgings from the Holy Spirit than now that we are living in Tribulation period and are now approaching the mid-point in 2012. I actually have had these strong impressions about where we are in the time-line ever since the transition from Bush to Obama. (Actually, I have been writing a book about this and plan to publish sometime this year).

The great news in all of this is that during the Great Tribulation, while Jesus referred to the day in 2015 as the Last Day, it is the Last Day of this age. He promised a new heaven and a new earth that we will live in after he closes the events of the Last Day according to his word.

It is very exciting to watch the news and the events unfold, isn’t it? The Bible is so right on it give me chills every time I open it up! Jesus said the “Holy Spirit shall teach you all things” and doggone it, he does!

God bless you for creating and maintaining such a blog. The time is NOW for this type of exchange. You are very blessed and will receive many crowns ‘now in this time’ and in heaven, for sure!

Let’s keep in touch as the Bible reveals the truth to us about ourselves and behind our world events! And yes, praying constantly for our loved ones and all peoples to recognize Jesus is key!!

I believe it is just a ‘covenant with many’…..not really sure where that fits, but I know that I know that the HS said “it has begun” in Nov 2008….Mary Anne hit it right on with the same thing the HS has been Urging within me.

I am really undecided on this point. I guess i need to be careful when I say “i agree,” that i indicate what I agree about. I can agree about one detail and not be sure about another one.

The bible does not say the covenant is one of peace, only that it is for “one week.”

Or that it includes Israel.

It might be among a group of enemy nations who have covenanted to destroy Israel. The covenant may be an alliance with many against Israel.

Dan 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

If he is confirming a covenant already in existence. What about the Oslo agreement? It just needs to be renewed.

or, what were they doing last year in Oslo? The meeting was secret.

we do not know what kind of covenant it is…it does not say it is for peace, or that Israel gets to participate….

it does not say it is a public agreement. It might be a secret agreement

My sense is that 2008 was not the actual beginning of the tribulation but a moment of “no turning back,” last days up leading up , with the last players getting into place. 2008-1012 is the end of America.

One person said ” it has begun.” To me, 2008 meant ” it is the beginning of the end.” What do these thoughts mean, if true? We have the same sense that this time of change is bad. But does that indicate the tribulation has started?

As i tell others, I am looking for the 4 horses – white, red, black, pale, which has not happened yet, that I can tell…..there is no holy place yet, but they are discussing building one. no holy place, no place for an abomination.

After all, if all nations turn against Israel, America is included, and has so far held out. I keep feeling that maybe 2011 is a better start time.

If 5 years, then wouldn’t that line up with Sept 2015…we have Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets) and POSSIBLE rapture and then there are 7 days of “awe” right after this (which could be when armeggedon takes place) and then there is yom kippur (G-Ds’ wrath…maybe)

another thing….jacob’s trouble is only 3 1/2 years. The 7 year covenant may only last 3 1/2 years, even though it was planned for 7…..just like all peace agreements, it does not last, and they quit

To me, something has to happen in America, to make 1/2 the world Jews go back to Israel….they are not in the right location to get terrorized by the antichrist.

then the Gog war should occur, I am thinking……once that is won by Israel, the false peace comes after such a great victory….seems like Muslims and Russia will only agree to a peace with Israel if they have been defeated at war.

I am still thinking this through…some say the gog war is armageddon…some say it only occurs after armageddon.

Agreed, but somehow the Jews need enough time to build a Temple. So, everyone gets defeated except America, and most of Israel which brings a false peace. later, the Kings of the east march through the dry rivers of the Tigres, and Eufraties after three unclean spirits go out to the world to bring all together at Armageddon (sp).

My experience is just like the one Lindsay describes with a “knowing” it has begun!

I believe while we must rely on the Bible, the celestrial skies, the world events with recent technological discoveries to provide our foundation on this topic, I firmly believe our final understanding must come from the Holy Spirit (which God has given to us) within us.

I believe the Lord set it up this way deliberately so that we would not rely on our intellects alone to guide us but rather to rely on the leadings of the Holy Spirit to “put it all together” with the information our intellect gives us.

The Bible, while wholly true, is allegorical and parable-driven in nature so that complex concepts can be more easily understood by man. Also, the writers of the Bible were writing based on their perspectives of the early world and associated terms they were familiar with at the time in history that they lived.

When the Bible refers to the “rebuilding of the temple”, from my perspective, that does not necessarily have to translate to a literal, physical interpretation. It can certainly mean that the Jews experience an uplifting religious and spiritual “revival” – a revitalized interest in their heritage and religious practices – which is right happening now. I believe the “rebuilding of the temple” means a re-igniting of the Jewish principles and foundations – particularly since they are getting increasingly attacked by surrounding lands and peoples. These forces are bringing the Jews together (here in American and across the globe) to boldy embrace their Jewish heritage, culture and religion as never before.

So, I would say the “rebuilding of the “temple” could very well be in progress right now with Benjamin Netanyahu leading the charge – to create a much stronger Jewish presence and mind-set.

Given this, I would say right now, they are experiencing a “false peace”. Their neighboring foes are quiet for the moment, but I believe poised to strike destructively at any time.

In terms of a peace pact made to last for 7 years, did not the U.S. resurrect a failed “pact” with Israel recently (through Obama) promising anew to lead them to successful peace and security with the Palestanians? To my simple understanding, the U.S. has now made a pact with Israel.

I don’t think we will be able to look to a very formal and obvious accord and be able to say – “Oh, there it is, the peace pact described in the Bible!” I think most of these things are “veiled” (by design) and require the discernment of the spirit to reveal their true meaning.

Jesus said no one knows (not even Him) of the exact day or hour of the end of this age – only his Father knows. However, he did say we can most certainly discern the “season” by the signs all around us.

I believe the reference to the horses is very omnious and will be obvious when it occurs (and again this doesn’t refer to actual “horses” but the horses represent what will happen as Marianne has said), but I believe they refer to the things that will happen at time of the Great Tribulation. So I don’t expect to see these particular horrific events come to fruition until then.

“These forces are bringing the Jews together (here in American and across the globe) to boldy embrace their Jewish heritage, culture and religion as never before.

So, I would say the “rebuilding of the “temple” could very well be in progress right now with Benjamin Netanyahu leading the charge – to create a much stronger Jewish presence and mind-set. ”

When I read the above, I “understood” that the rebuilding of the temple referred to by Jesus is succinctly the “rebuilding of the Jews/their nation”? bringing them all together back to their homeland where G-D intended for them to be? Is that right? I know that another group is making plans for a physical temple, but alledgedly this is a masonic group doing this and perhaps in their carnal understanding they are looking at the “physical 3rd temple” whereas, Jesus is pointing us towards a “spiritual 3rd temple” in that we are to worship Him “in SPIRIT and in TRUTH”! There really isn’t a “need” for a 3rd physical temple because of there being no more need for sacrifice-Jesus was the FINAL sacrifice; We are to worship Him now in Spirit and Truth not thru the formalities done thru a physcial temple. And perhaps when Jesus returns to reign from Jerusalem, He will have his own ideas as to whether or not a 3rd physical temple is needed….and if the temple is built by the Masons, well, I believe Jesus would want it torned down because of this.

And finally, as I posted on other pages, this past February and right before Passover of this year, the HS told me twice that I needed to learn the Jewish Holidays. I was raised southern baptist so this of course was unusual to say the least but I did listen the second time when He was more pressing about it and WOW-so much of everything pretty much came into place when understanding these 7 holidays/holy days.

And this past year I have drawn per se towards the Jewish culture. Last Christmas I felt the “need” to do Hanukah instead of Christmas but I didn’t do it because, well, I had no idea how and of course I thought my dad would think I was “crazy”…lol He passed in February and 2 weeks afterwards is when the HS spoke and said “you need to learn the Jewish HOlidays”.

And, 21 years ago, before I received the baptism in the HS, I was told by a lady at church that G-D told her to tell me that I was to read the book of Ruth and that I was to be compared to Ruth…she didn’t understand it either but thought I should know…I am adding this here to see what your understanding, perhaps “witness” of this would be….I think I may have figured it out as it was an “a ha” moment” but thought since I am getting some witnesses here I would just try it and see…:)

Re:Jesus said no one knows (not even Him) of the exact day or hour of the end of this age – only his Father knows. However, he did say we can most certainly discern the “season” by the signs all around us.

By learning the Jewish Holidays and by reading Marianne’s blog site I “somehow” came across Mark Biltz…did you know….I was so excited when I learned of this…did you know that the “no one knows the day or the hour” is actually referring to the Jewish Holy Day-Rosah Hashanah!. It is the ONLY jewish holy day where “no one knows the day or hour” that it begins.!

“In terms of a peace pact made to last for 7 years, did not the U.S. resurrect a failed “pact” with Israel recently (through Obama) promising anew to lead them to successful peace and security with the Palestanians? To my simple understanding, the U.S. has now made a pact with Israel. ”

Is there a way we can get a copy of this pact-to read it online or something…

In reference to ‘I “understood” that the rebuilding of the temple referred to by Jesus is succinctly the “rebuilding of the Jews/their nation”? bringing them all together back to their homeland where G-D intended for them to be?’… I would say that I believe the Bible tells us that in the end times the Jews will be “gathered” together in solidarity, of one mind – whether that means in Israel or whevever they are across the globe. All true followers of Jesus are his flock, whether they be Jew or non-Jew. (He said “others I must also bring” – referring to the non-Jew).

So with that, non-Jews are “grafted” into his flock so it wouldn’t be practical (or necessary) for all believers to gather in Israel at his coming. Jesus can reach us wherever we are and we will see him whereever we are. Your urgings to learn the Jewish calendar, however, is a very good thing as you are recoginzing that the non-Jew is grafted into the Jewish flock.

I believe all eyes will be on Israel, though, in the end times because it is the “glorious land” of God. The reference to the rebuilding of the temple, to me, refers to to a figurative temple of God filled in SPIRIT with his believers in strong solidarity across the globe looking for the Messiah.

I don’t think we should look to all things Jesus told us to be purely literal in nature – they all are real for sure – but in most cases, they are figurative representions of literal states of mind of humankind and how we interacts with the power of God.

For instance, in Daniel 12:11, we are told that “from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation set up, there shall be 1,290 days (3.5 years)”. So, if we examine this figurative representation from a literal point of view (which is how the H.S. instructs me to view the Bible), the daily sacrifice means that the Jewish solidairty and renewed interest in their beliefs and religious practices – “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah” (Den. 9:25) – will be abolished (taken away) suddenly by the influence of Anti-Christ (who is the abomination of desolation) at the mid-point of tribulation. This statement doesn’t doesn’t want us to focus on an actual temple being built(which may or man not happen) but rather a rebuilding of “Jerusalem unto Messiah”.

I believe, however, there will be an actual person who is installed by the U.S. (and perhaps a coalition of U.S. and other countries) whose charge it is to ‘get Israel under control’ as Israel will be seen increasingly by its foes and the world alike as being the cause of the problems in the Mid East. Coincidentally, as this is happening to Israel and all believers, all the world’s morality and beliefs in God (as we see starting to happen now) deteriorates to shocking levels!

Regarding the Book of Ruth, the woman who compared you to Ruth sees in you as having pure, unconditional love with total reliance on and trust in God – as this was what Ruth was all about. I also see your total reliance on the Holy Spirit, which God has given freely to us!

In reference to us not knowing the day or hour of the end, Jesus said in Mark: 24:36 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father”.

I would have to part ways re: the Rosh Hashanah interpretation of this statement – Jesus is clearly referring to the last day of this age when he made that statement. The Jews of Jesus day followed their holidays strictly and it is doubtful they needed his further instruction on them. He didn’t come to clarify such information, he came to tell of his Godhood and his coming to save his elect.

While I’m sure it’s true that no one knows the hour or day of Rosh Hashanah from year to year (just as other holidays’ dates vary from year to year), this particular Bible verse is not referring to Rosh Hashanah clarification.

Jesus was specifically answering his disciples when they queried him about the signs of his coming – “Tell us when these things shall be (referring to Jesus’ description of Tribution and the Last Day)? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the age?”. Read Matthew 24: 3-51 for the detailed explanation.

Jesus was a good Jew, no doubt, but we need to keep in mind that he came to tell us that while religious structure and symbolism (regardless of the religion), provide good foundatons for our daily lives and encouraging us to reach the full knowledge of God, we have to be careful that these frameworks and structures do not eclipse the real message and presence of God – which we are instructed to find by worshiping “in spirit and truth”.

Also, thanks very much for the above link. I haven’t had the opportunity to read yet, but I’ll do so shortly!

Sorry, I think I ‘fat fingered’ the Bible verse that I was referring to that speaks to what Jesus said re: his exact day of his coming and the specific hour.

It is in Matthew 24:3 that describes the disciples’ question to him about the his coming and in Matthew 24:36-51 that describes Jesus’ answer to them that the Father only knows the specific day and hour of his coming.

In Matthew 24:32-35, however, Jesus describes that we shall certainly know the “season” of the end (just as we now have the ability to discern natural seasons of the year), but we will not be able to discern the exact day and hour of the end.

This particular piece of information is hidden from us and only the Father knows it. So, while we will be able to discern the year and season of the year, the day and hour has not be disclosed to us.

I understand what your saying but ASK the HS to reveal this to you as He did me! It was as if He was saying “aha, BINGO, you got it”….it totally makes sense and I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever. When Jesus was asked by the disciples as to when he was coming back, Jesus’ response was “no man knows the day or the hour”…FEAST OF TRUMPETS, the disciples would have known exactly what he was talking about….and then regarding “Jesus’ answer to them that the Father only knows the specific day and hour of his coming. ..” This is referencing the Jewish Wedding….in the Jewish custom, the groom’s FATHER is the only one who knows the day and hour of the wedding…this is incredible…the groom “goes away and PREPARES a place/a home for his new bride” and it is the father who chooses this bride and it is the father who determines that the groom is READY to retrieve/go back to get his bride! sound familiar….

Beyond any doubt, the day that no man knows the day or hour it begins is Rosh Hashanah -Feast of trumpets…

Remember, the HS told me to learn the Jewish Holidays, twice! Once I did, and I am still learning, but once I did, EVERYTHING started falling into place and making sense.

*Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts, now we are waiting for Him to return to fulfill the FALL FEASTS…which are:

Rosh Hashanah/Feast of Trumpets….1 Corithinans 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet

and Revelations 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

I think we are all on the same page. No doubt, the Lord has been very active in providing his believers with signs of his impending coming.

I believe Jesus is coming in a Fall season and more specifically, the fall of 2015 looks promising – where his return will be heralded by a “trump and a shout”, as you mention.

It is very possible that his coming will occur on Rosh Hashanah – I’m not disputing that at all – but the Rosh Hashanah period occurs over many days and all I’m saying is that Jesus emphasized we would not be able to pinpoint the exact day.

It’s just my personal opinion that we don’t want to get so wrapped up in celestial ‘signs’ (although they are extremely important guideposts once we have our feet planted firmly in faith) that we miss the full import of Jesus’ message about preparing ourselves with the necessary faith to be one of his elect at his coming. Let’s face it, there are also those believers who exist in the world today who may not be ‘up on’ the astronomical signs of the end times, but will be saved nonetheless because of their pure belief…

Wasnt sure where to post this..so I put in the Search above “2013 Famine” and it brought me here…the video I am posting has a man by the name of Larry Randolph…G-D showed him headlines of the future..one of particular is 2013 Famine.

Hi Lyndsey and all, for some reason I wasn’t able to open the video that speaks to the 2013 Famine, but without seeing it, I can certainly agree and believe that we are on course for a major Famine. 2013 sounds very reasonable. This thought is based upon what’s going on in the world right now.

We shouldn’t fear a famine, however, as the Lord said in
Psalm 37: 19 “They shall not be ashamed (speaking of believers) in the evil time; in the days of famine they shall be satisfied”. The Psalmist goes on to say in 37:26: “I have been young and am now old yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken; nor his seed begging bread”.

Also, I did open one of the other videos on this link where Larry Randoph is speaking of a “visitation” from Jesus. He doesn’t refer to it as a dream, an impression or a vision but an actual visitation.

While I agree this man may have had some truths revealed to him (but be cautioned, the Devil knows perfectly well what will happen in the End Times and he works through people too), I personally don’t believe anyone will have a visitation from Jesus himself until the Last Day when Jesus said he would appear – because he told us so.

In fact, before he died, he promised to send the Holy Spirit (which is his spirit) IN HIS PLACE to guide us along our journey until he comes.

Larry Randolph’s description of an actual visitation from Jesus (where he saw red smoke) brings these Bible verses to mind where Jesus expressly warned against believing in these so-called visitations:

In Matthew 24:24-27 Jesus said – “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show you great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore, if they shall say unto you Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth; behold he is in the secret chambers, go no forth; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass be, there will be eagles gathered together”.

To me, he is a strict warning against those who claim to see and visit with Jesus because Jesus told us precisely when we would see him again. He said seeing him before his time will simply not happen.

We certainly can “dream” of Jesus (which is probably what Larry Randolph experienced) because we believe in him and think alot about him but to say you have had an actual visitation from him, I believe, is directly against Jesus’ words.

How I interpret the last Bible verse here – “Wherever the carcass is, there will eagles be gathered together” means that many people at the end will gather and be strongly attracted to this ‘dead’ (false) doctrine.

That being said, as believers, we should be on the alert to glean God’s messages from anywhere as long as we stick like glue to the word of God as presented in the Bible to interpret those messages.

Rev 6 says that by the time the 6th seal is broke, when the sun turns black and the moon turns red, 5 seals have already been opened. This means that tribulation has already been going on for awhile. Then after the 6th seal, it says the sky tolls back and the time of “HIS WRATH HAS COME.” TO me, this means one period of trouble is over, and now WRATH begins.

WRATH is not TRIBULATION. It is worse.

The way I define it, the “tribulation” is only 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years, according to both Daniel and Revelation.

The time of wrath follows that, after the saints are removed. There is a “last week” but there is not proof that the whole week is the tribulation.

Taking the dates you give, if the 6th seal is at the time of the lunar and solar eclipses, in spring of 2015, then the time of wrath begins then, which means the 3 1/2 years is over.

I think some folks are putting way too much into these upcoming eclipses. Eclipses occur on a regular cycle, and repeating eclipses are quite normal. Since the Jewish calendar is Lunar-based, if an eclipse happens on one feast day then it will automatically repeat on another feast day and it will repeat the next year – not on the same Gregorian calendar dates, but on the same Jewish calendar days. God is not forcing the eclipses to fit these dates. When you do the math, they are not that surprising.
As for the solar eclipses, unlike lunar eclipses which are visible everywhere on earth, solar eclipses are only visible to a very few observers along a narrow shadow-line less than 90 miles wide running in a strip over one side of the earth. This strip will not cross over Jerusalem in any case. Even with lunar eclipses that last 3 hours, almost half the world will not be able to see them as they will be on the other side of the planet at the time.
Therefore these are not the signs mentioned in Revelation as the darkening of the sun and moon. This darkening will be due to a worldwide event such as a super-volcano that will darken the atmosphere with toxic ash and dust which will cause any other number of problems mentioned in the seals.
In any case, they are coming way too soon. If they represent the middle or end of the tribulation period, then we are currently in the last week of Daniel. Where is the antichrist? Where is the New World Order? Where are the first five seals? And the war of Gog? What about the final kingdom(s) of Revelation 17?
And for those who think that the city of Babylon will be rebuilt along with the Jewish temple, where are they? And that new Islamic empire that will behead all of the saints?
Where are all of these things? Will they all happen in a couple of weekends?
Unfortunately, if you believe in this time frame then most of these other beliefs must be abandoned.
Sorry but I’m afraid not much will happen on these six eclipse days. They are spread out over a year so trying to link a prophetic event with any one of them would be a crap shoot. This is all just a lot of pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking hoping our Lord will soon return. As I said, the Book of Revelation is not referring to a simple series of common events. When the sixth seal is opened the whole world will know it – it will be horrendous. As will the first five which we have not seen yet. When they occur, we will KNOW what they are. God will make sure of that. There will be no doubt, no discussion, no blogging. Everyone will know – they will be events of biblical proportions.
Put down your bibles a minute and pick up a nice book on astronomy and enjoy these eclipses for what they are – wonderful natural events. Let’s not make them out to more than they really are or else they might get some sort of God complex and decide they can’t handle the pressure and decide to not even happen, and then where will we be?
😉

I think if there is an eclipse during the 6th seal, it is just coincidental. There will be more going on.

I think we still have a few years of grace, but not much. I am waiting for the first 5 seals as well. I am not sure when the antichrist shows up during these, but the bible says we will see him revealed first, before we leave this earth.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

so, to me, the antichrist and the abomination are better signs to watch for.

But, actually, instead of all that, which we cannot change, we should be watching for signs of failure within ourselves. That we can correct, if we have a humble spirit.

If you are looking for a sign that the tribulation has begun I don’t think you will find it looking for the Antichrist or the last week of Daniel with the abomination of desolation. The 70th week of Daniel refers to the ministry of Jesus and it is completed. There will not be a person as the Antichrist. The beast is a kingdom (just ask Daniel) and it will be the 8th and final king(dom) of Revelation. (The eighth is of the seventh and will last only a short time). This will be the revived Holy Roman Empire. It will be a political pact between the Europen Union and the Vatican. The Europen Union will have a leader but he will not be the Antichrist. There will only be the false prophet. This will be a person – the leader of the Vatican – the pope. He is the one who claims to be Jesus. He does not have to proclaim it with his voice – his title, Vicar of the Son of God, proclaims him to be christs’ replacement and that title, in latin, adds up to 666. He will not go to the temple in Jerusalem and set up the abomination – that is fulfilled prophesy. He will exercise his authority over the new Holy Roman Empire and declare that all citizens are to attend mass every Sunday in response to a growing Muslim infiltration into Europe. Business owners will be required to close shop on Sunday and open on Saturday or else they will not receive a business license. This “blue law” is already in effect in France). In other words no one can buy or sell without bowing to the authority of the false prophet. Forced Sunday worship will be the mark of his authority. Better said it will be the mark (of authority) of the new Holy Roman Empire (the beast).
Of course, almost no-one will realize anything is up. It will all seem like business as usual for the Vatican – nothing out of the ordinary. So how will we know the tribulation has begun? Well, certainly when the second seal (WW3) is opened, that will be a clue. But the best sign will be the appearance of the two witnesses at the temple in Jerusalem. They will preach for the last 3-1/2 years then be killed just before Christ returns. That will be a certain sign.
Also we can look for the war of Gog which should precede the tribulation. It might even be the trigger for WW3 – the 2nd seal/horse. By the time the 2 witnesses appear, the whole world will know that the time of trouble has begun. There will be signs of biblical proportions and the fact that the war of Gog is ended by fire and ice from heaven will leave no doubt in anyone’s mind that there is a God at work.
But where things will go wrong for most Christians is that they will be looking for an Antichrist figure that will take over a New World Order and place a chip in everyone’s hand or forehead, and that will simply not happen. In fact, half of them will be expecting to be raptured away, and they will refuse to believe the tribulation has begun simply because they are still there. And without the other things happening they will be certain that they are safe until Christ sneaks back to snatch them away.
I’m afraid that many many true believers will live through the tribulation denying it has started. They will not understand the Mark of the Beast and will curse God when they receive the last 7 plagues. This is all part of the prophecy, so it will happen. I pray that when it does that anyone who has read this will remember these words and realize what is happening.Of course if I’m wrong, I’ll see you all at the rapture party in heaven.

I agree,James. What is shown clearly of these quadruple eclipses they are all three three connected to Israel’s events, not for christians. 1. Liberation of Jerusalem (also prophecied by Rabbi Judah Ben Samuel in 1217: Jerusalem will be under enemy 400 years, then no-man’s land 1917-1967 and under Jewish control 1967-2017). 2. Foundation of Israel. and 3. Discovery of America which was to become the most powerful nation in the world. In Genesis this was promised to Joseph’s sons and in their time Ephraim/Manasse moved there and established the USA. The ten lost tribes are not lost and live predominantly in the western Christian world. You remenber also sticks of Ephraim and Judah The western world is fighgting against Judah until God combines the sticks.
Thus my understanding is that 2014-2015 will deal predominantly with something very special happening in Israel. In two previous cases combined Arab forces tried to destroy Israel. Maybe this is the case also this time After winning the war Israel would then create the situation: living in peace as described in Hezekiel before the war of Gog.
The year 2012 is very important also in some other prophecies.
Babylon was distroyed in 539 BC. If you add to this Daniel’s numbers 1260 days and 1290 days in years you end up in the year 2012, according to God’s 360 day calendar. Extra 30 days are added leap month which belongs to every calendar. Detailshttp://www.bible-codes.org/2012-predictions-true-doubts.htm
Also this 360 days calendar is explained there.
Some twenty years ago I was reading about Sidkia, the last King, and then I was revealed that the 15 years given to Sidkia will also be given at the end by God’s mercy to let people repent. How that 15 years is to be used at the end times I don’t know. Given address tells also details of God’s calendar.
In the light of previous I am very suspicious of any date determined for Revelation seals and Rapture.
As David Wilkerson said, This is no depression but we live under the wrath of God. We are in the end times.

Many of the Trumpet and bowl jugments Jim will occur in the Bible lands. Majority of the Islamic activity occurs in the Middle East and Europe. Study your Bible, jim. It is all there in the Tanakh. Where is the Antichrist. Where is the New World Order.

This has happened since the beginning of the month of Tishrei (Sept-Oct) 2015.
1) Double Solar Eclipse on the Day of Trumpet connected to an event in Israel. (Aviv Moon network.com prophesies/Endtimes Forum)
2) On the Day of Atonement, Obama made a pact agreement with Satan and became the Antichrist. Seal 1: Conquering political and or religious force begins to take over the world. (Revelation 6:1,2) 2009 Obama is sitting down in a group meeting and there is a bow and crown present in the picture. To the Islamics, he was showing himself to be their Mahdi in 2015. (Renee M Beforeitsnews.com). Could it be the Islamics in Islam countries be the political and religious force?
3) WWIII broke out in the Middle East with Russia as the head. Seal 2: World War III begins. (Rev 6: 3,4) ISIS, Middle East, 2015
Joel 2 31 prophecy Abib 1/Passover Solar eclipse in March/April 2015 means judgement for the globe and lunar eclipse means judgement for Israel. Also Solar /Luner eclipse in September.
4) Red Blood Moon over Israel and now there is Islamic War aginst Israel so it could be either Psalm 83 War (which I suspect) or the coming into of the Ezekiel 38-39 War with Nuclear Weapons (Zech 14:20. Time will tell so keep you eyes glued to events in Israel.
5) Popes visit to usher in the One World Order and one world religion (Agenda 21 on Steroids). I have all the documents on this. They called this Agenda 2030 but it is now called Agenda Universal. Sept. 23-28, 2015.
6) Ten global Economic coutries stocks are collapsing which I believe is Seal 3 and the end of this is one World currency on October 20th at the end of the 7th and 49th Shemitah cycle. Seal 3: World wide economic collapse, famine. (Rev 6:5,6) September 24, 2015 Year of the Shemitah; One world currency, Oct 20th, 2015. Fed’s are planning for a set date for this to happen. Be ready with 3 year supply of food and water.
7) Imam’s in American are telling Islamics to kill Americans wherever they see them. Seal 5: Worldwide persecution of Jews and Christians. (Rev 6: 9-11) 2015/2016, ISIS killings coming to America. Luke 9:9. An article titled said Genocide has already begun in America.
8) UN International Police State formed. Sept 29th, 2015. 13 major cities joined. USA: Cities who are participating include: New York City, Atlanta, Denver, Minneapolis, Paris, London, Montreal, Beirut, Oslo and thirteen others.
beforeitsnews.com/new-world-order/2015/10/alert-u-s-cities-join-new-world-order-to-form-a-global-police-force-targeting-homegrown-extremism-patriots-trouble-brewing-5288.html
beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2015/10/obama-administration-and-un-announce-global-police-force-to-fight-extremism-in-us-cities-3060190.html. Welcome to Islamic Sharia Law for the USA. (I Thess 5:3)
Things to look forward to before the end of December 31st.
1) October to December (more likely December) USA Martial Law 3 in full effect.
2) Russia and Chinese going with Nuclear War against America (Nineveh)
Saudi Arabia (end times Babylon, (Babylon the Great(JA)) destroyed in a nuclear holocaust. (Rev 17:16-18:24) Late 2015, 2016. Some call this ” fire” in dreams. Some teach that America is Babylon the Great. I think this article will convince you that it may be Saudi Arabia.
shoebat.com/2014/12/03/mysterious-black-horse-seen-flying-mecca-babylon-great-come/

Look at times 2:44 to 3:52. The UFOs turn red in the sky. If a whole group of them gathered at night in front of the moon, the moon would appear “red.” Also, the falling UFOs look like fiery hail. A new interpretation to think about.

Marianne
Not to change the topic here, Revalation 8:12 and following, The fourth trumpet. A thought occurred to me regarding this: an increase in the rotation speed of the earth would cause a third of the day and a third of the night to disappear. as well as a third of the moon.?
Assuming this is the case, opening of the bottomless pit (5th Trumpet/first Woe) would be volcanic/ seismic activity as a result of the increased rotation.
6th Trumpet equals locusts from the abyss?
Also, going back in time, sixth seal sounds to me like a near miss of acomet or other large celestial body which could be the cause of the fourth trumpet? Therefore first three trumpets could be debris from this passing celestial body?
Just a thought since we are talking about moons turning red etc.

Marianne
The first seal is catholocism and its governmental system which it supported, namely, Monarchy. Note revalation 6:2. Bow with no arrows equals papacy, which had authority but no military power except through its puppet monarchs, hence the crown, conquering and to conquer equals crusades/ conquistadors in new world. White is the color of Papacy.
Second seal equals secularism, and its ultimate governmental form of communism. Obviously red is the color of communism. How many people have been killed by communism/ fascism in the past and how many wars have been started in their name. Great sword= Sickle, think of the grim reaper. The idea of secularism has its roots in the renaissance, as a reaction to catholocism, and it arguably started long before that.
Third seal, black horse equals protestantism and its primary governmental form of capitalism. The scales should be the giveaway for this. Black robes are also the color associated with protestantism (think black robe brigade in U.S. revolution. Think also of the protestant work ethic as written about by the sociologist Webber.
Fourth seal, green horse equals Islam and its governmental form of theocracy. It is the religion that venerates death and murder (Jihad and martydom). its name is death, but the only thing that follows this death is not heaven but Hades. It kills with the sword, and most areas of famine are located in its jurisdiction, and wild beasts, or metaphorically crazed or raging people promote this religion. This government is now coming into being with the current riot throughout the middle east. Note they are getting rid of their monarchies etc.

That is why I believe we are in the time of the fourth seal. Note also that bible says Green horse has authority over a fourth of the earth, I don’t think this means they will kill all those people.

These are also all four possible systems of human governance. They each have authority over roughly afourth of the world. I believe that these four make up “Babylon the Great” that will be destroyed by the wrath of God. The sixth seal marks the start of the “great tribulation” ,and the seventh trumpet the Second coming of Christ. which occurs during the seventh seal.

marianne
A point that I would like to add to this is that there are Chistians amongst all of these kingdoms. And also that these seals do not necesarily place a value as to which system is right or wrong. the point is that they will all be replaced in the millenial reign of Christ. If someone is a catholic or a protestant, this should be a thing of rejoicing for these are all systems based on the sinfulness of man, the new millenial system will be based on the redemtion of man through the blood of Christ.

They already are or have been think of the inquisition, the persecutions of the anababtists, the witch trials. Also persecution is not by definition killing, though this is part of it. Anyone who has questioned the authority of a pastor or a priest or pope is kicked out of the church, or at best kicked out of the inner circle. the problem is that as long as the church has the authority structures of the world it will always be putting someone between the Christians and Jesus. The Bible says to shepherd my flock. A shepherd directs the sheep to their ultimate goal, which is Christ, not manipulate them into allegiance to some institution or beauracracy which is led by some fallen leader who puts him or herself on a pedestal only maintain that power. I have seen evidence of this persecution first hand and what it can do to the members of a church, leading to division and denominalization in the churches. what is lost in this is the fact that the authority of the church rests in God alone. As for capitalism it “kills” by weighing your value on the scales. if you are worthless by societies standards then you are worthless to the church. But Jesus said those who are first shall be last, and those who are last shall be first (notation not available at this time). Think also in the protestant churches of the emphasis on works rather than Grace. this is particularly evident in the calvinist and lutherin denominations.

Marianne
If you get a chance, read my last post on Pale grisled fourth horse to Pattie farm. This will shed some light on how i view the timeline of revalation. I would be curious to hear your comments.

Read the Olivet discourse. In it Jesus describes all 7 seals – in order. In Revelation John is simply seeing a vision of the Olivet prophecy. There is not much in Revelation that is not found elsewhere in the bible.
Check it out and discuss…

Matthew 24:9-14 describes the fifth seal to a tee. ” many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. and many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased the love of many will grow cold. but the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
Yes James I do see the paralles to th seven seals of revalation.

Ask yourself this: Do you find love growing cold in this society where everything is growing more and more cutthroat and backstabbing in order to advance? Or in the church? Etc.

James
i also read your other post above, regarding the sabbath. I take it that you are a seventh day adventist.
My question for you is what happens to those who do not keep the sabbath as seventh day? if they are condemned to wrath for this is this then not a work or condition on the Grace of Jesus? In other words is this not saying that the grace of God and the blood of Jesus are insufficient to save us?
I ask this with no animosity towards the Adventists, but rather because I see this as one thing that hinders me from leaning towards being an adventist.
I understand the arguement for worshipping on the seventh day, but I do not think it is the mark of the beast.

Well Dru, if you understand that the mark of the beast is Sunday worship, then you Kinda have to become a sabbath keeper, although you don’t have to join the 7th day Adventist church. You simply have to honor the sabbath and keep it holy, just as God asked His people to do.
You wouldn’t violate the first commandment would you – and put a different god before Him? You can’t become a cold-blooded murderer and expect to avoid the lake of fire? At least not after you’ve become born again.
How about idol worship – are yo in for a little of that? Yes, there are some commandments that we can all agree are pretty much deal-breakers as far a God is concerned. So you must ask yourself, if God is going to judge people on something, don’t you think it will be something He really cares about? Would He care if you bought your food and necessities using a barcode or chip? Or would He be upset that His people were breaking a sacred commandment? Especially the only one that begins with the word “Remember?” You think maybe He knew we would all forget that one? Maybe that was His clue.
And don’t forget that the angel told Daniel about the man of sin that he would think to change laws and times. He meant God’s laws and times of course – His commandments. The catholic church removed the second commandment and changed the time of the fourth from Saturday to Sunday. The only one concerning time.
These are powerful clues as to the mark of the beast but most people ignore them. They are so used to breaking the 4th commandment they assume it is probably OK to do so.
Think of it this way – when Jesus returns as the political and spiritual leader of the world, what day will He call the sabbath? Will he change the 4th commandment to Sunday to accomodate all those folks who are so used to the tradition of men? Will He care? Of course He will. Pagan practices like Sunday worship will be eliminated. His bride will not be one bit pagan. Babylon (paganism) will be destroyed before the wedding. The angels rejoice in that.

In case you’re not sure that the mark of the beast is not about keeping God’s commandments, here are some verse:

On the plagues given to those with the mark:
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
These are all commandments, right?

And again:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Hmmm… Commandment keepers are not tormented!

And what about the true church?
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The true church will be just a remnant (a carpet roll remnant is usually 5-10%) – a very tiny church indeed, and they will keep the commandments. We can assume that means all of them.

Again – very convincing clues that most everyone ignores. They proclaim “we are all under grace now – the laws of God don’t matter! I wouldn’t count on that. There are many dozens of scriptures that reveal that grace without works is useless. So which should we believe? Well, you could take your chances and go ahead and ignore the commandments… are you feeling lucky, (punk?) (See the movie “Dirty Harry“ for that scripture).
If God had a .44 magnum staring you in the face, would you ignore His laws? Well the 7 last plagues will be far worse. As for me, I’m going to play it safe.That’s all I’m saying.

I have the bulletproof shield made of the blood of Jesus, and I alone am unable to live by the commandments, and when you break one you’ve broken them all. I would rather trust in the blood of Jesus than my own works.

However, I do enjoy keeping one of the commandments and that would be the sabbath. Since discovering that it is actually on Friday eve to Sat eve, It feels like a mini vacation to the end of a stressful work week!

And It actually feels more like 2 days compared to the 1 day of Sunday. Jesus was right when he said that the sabbath was made for man and not the other way around 🙂

So even though we have grace…I would so recommend keeping the sabbath, not just to stay out of trouble per se, but to really enjoy what G-d has given us and to honor Him at the same time 🙂

James
God does not point a gun at us and say repent or else, but i do appreciate the analogy. I believe this is a tactic used by Muslims. I am not disagreeing with you on the sabbath being the seventh day, I even said that in my inquiry.
Glations 5:1 “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.”
V2 ” Look: I Paul say to you that, if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
V3 I testify again to EVERY MAN who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
V4You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the Law; You have fallen away from grace.
V5 For through the SPIRIT by FAITH, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteosness .
V6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything but ONLY FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE.”(ESV emphasis added)
Was Paul speaking an untruth here.
James also confirms Pauls notion here in James 1:26. “If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless.
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”
2:12 “So speak and act as those who are to be judged under the LAW OF LIBERTY.
v13 For judgement is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. MERCY TRIUMPHS over judgement.(ESV)
Then James goes into talking about faith without works is dead.
Does this mean that James and Paul are contradicting one another? In your understanding of the sabbath, as a condition of salvation are you not putting the Law above Grace? God came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law. So is Paul wrong or is James wrong? Where is it in your understanding, that mercy comes into play? Where is it that the process of sanctification falls into play? Where is God’s love if he is holding a gun to our face?
Yes I agree that the law stands alone. If we violate one precept we violate them all. I agree that faith without works is dead. But I also believe that the Blood of Jesus covers all our sins, past present and future, he has imputed our sinfullness and replaced it with righteousness. Do we still sin, yes,as I am sure you do, but God only sees the blood of Jesus which is the only propitiation for sin. The fruits of our faith are our works, Even these fruits are the result of the sanctifying work of the spirit in our lives and not of our own accord, for I am nothing without Jesus, And only through his work am made righteous.
Rev 12:17b …On those who keep the commandments of God and HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS.” You emphasize the commandment part, I choose to emphasize the Testimony of Jesus.
Again in revalation 14:12 you emphasize the commandments part, I choose to emphasize The “faith in Jesus” part.
Again I ask you even though you believe in Christ, do you still sin? If you speak a white lie you have broken the whole law including the sabbath. In fact, throughout the sanctification part of growth as Christians, I am be continually be made aware of the sinfulness in me that I was never even knew was sinful. Not because it broke a specific command, but because my heart was not in the right place. Read Luke 11:37-12:12 note especially verse 11:39-41. Thus sanctification is done by God in us and is done from within (heart and motives) It is Not of ouselves.
I am not giving lisence to break the law here, but rather, am saying that outside actions are not by definition a sign of the inward condition. Psalm 139:23-24 says ” search me, O God, and know my HEART! Try me and know my THOUGHTS! see if there any grievous way in me, and LEAD me in the WAY EVERLASTING!”
In summary, God is working on our hearts and our thoughts and our motives, and he will lead us in the way everlasting. Can someone have the wrong motives for keeping the sabbath in the end times. does that mean they are spared from the lake of fire? This is why I do not believe this is the mark of the beast. I also believe that the Christians will be raptured before the mark of the beast is mandated.

Yeshua was conceived in 4 BC at Chanukkah (Festival of Lights and Feast of Dedication) on a Sabbath either on Dec. 15th or the 22nd. Born in the Fall on either Yom Teruah (Day of Trumpet) or on the first Annual Sabbath of Feast of Tabernacles in 3 BCE. Messianics teach Feast of Tabernacles. He was circumcised on the 8th day (A new beginning) on the Second Annual Sabbath. According to Stellarium (free Astronomy program) and Torahcalendar.com, He was born on Yom Kippur in 3 BC (Stellarium -4). He began His ministry in 27 CE and baptized either in January (Michael Rood Chronological Gospels) or Day of Atonement (Biblical Astronomy article). Entered Jerusalem on a donkey in 29 CE (Shemitah year) on Abib 10 (Saturday), Month 1. Died on Passover (not a Sabbath) on Wednesday (4th day and 4th candle called the Christ candle or servant candle of the Menorah (7 candles)) (each candle represents a day and 1000 years). Buried on Thursday (Wednesday night by the time the first three stars came out which starts a new day). Possibly the men came out of the tomb when the stars had appeared and closed the tomb after the stars came out. This Day was the Feast of Unleavened Bread Annual Sabbath. Rose 72 hours later at the beginning of the Feast of First Fruits. Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) is the Messianic Kingdom at the Second Coming in 2016 or 2017.
Yeshua/Jesus will return on the Day of Trumpet 10 days before Armageddon on the Day of Atonement. Marriage of the bride also occurs on the Day of Atonement.

Dru, would you like all the scriptures you quote from a Jewish perspective.Jardalkal@aol.com or download e-sword and then purchase David L Sterns Jewish NT Commentary.
About the Sabbath In Exodus it is keep the Sabbath and in Deuteronomy, it is Remember and Keep the Sabbah. By the time of now, mny people especially Christians do not remember the Sabbath and keep it.
In he Messianic Kingdom, the church will only be open on the Sabbath. As a matter of fact, if you d no how up to Jerusalem at Passover, Pentecost, and Feast of Tabernacles, you will on be eating dirt for the year, nd you will not get rain where you live.

Also up until 300 CE, the early church kept the Sabbath and when the Spanish Crusades came along from Costantine and Roman Cathlcs, all those who did not go to Sunday worship were killed.

dru
I’m not so sure that circumcision and dietary laws or even civil laws such as an eye for and eye are going to be a big concern during the tribulation. The ten commandments are carved in stone, a symbol of permanence. I believe that the Ark of the Covenant will soon be recovered from Jeremiah’s grotto beneath the site of the crucifixion. It will be a sign to modern believers that the law is still in effect. The rest of the laws will be sorted out when the millennium begins and Christ is in charge. So maybe if you love barbecued ribs you should get your fill now before you have to give them up – just in case. 🙂

James
Just to throw this one out there, What if legalism and works based faith is the mark of the beast? You will be denying Jesus and saying his blood is insufficient for sin. And those Who at the final judgement say “we prophesied and did wonders in your name,” and Jesus reply, “I knew you not”. and with the wrath of God staring them in their face they will still not repent.
I say this to get people to think and question and not to mock.
As for millenial reign, I believe God will restore the original creation model (new creation) Therefor I don’t know if Adam and Eve ate ribs or not: I like nuts and berries too!

Dru,
You bring up a good point but let me put it to rest.
It is impossible to live by works alone. You can not obey God’s laws and at the same time reject Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and still be a Christian. Even pious Jews who follow all the old covenant laws (and many still do) are doomed unless they come to Christ. All their works are in vain without admitting His sacrifice.
Believing in Christ is what makes us Christians, so being saved by faith is virtually automatic. But the scriptures tell us that we must go beyond faith to show how much we love God. We will all be judged by our works and will receive rewards based on them.
Don’t you think that God would be more pleased if you believed in His son AND kept His commandments? Do you think we will keep them throughout the millennium? Would you want to tell your savior that you didn’t feel like keeping the law until you were forced into it?
I think those who ignore the law now and expect to slide thru the tribulation on just faith are going to regret it. Maybe not.
So I ask again, do you feel lucky?
🙂

James
1. I agree you cannot live by works alone.
2. on the jewish people, I also agree
3. even the demons believe in Christ and tremble. Are they Christians?
4. Is not loving God a work that we do that saves us? This is the sticking point. Yes I agree we should keep his commandments, But there is nothing we can do to earn his Love or his rewards. All our works are corrupt just as all our institutions in this world are corrupt. God on the other hand has freely given to us salvation, His love, and his blood to cover our corruption. We merely have to accept that gift. God then will work in us by his grace to sanctify us. Repentence is the act of us giving contol of our lives to God, So that he can do his WORK in us.
Note: accepting a gift is not a work we can take credit for, for we know we are not worthy of that Gift. Do we love God for giving us this gift? by all means yes, and we thank him and praise him for it. But does God need OUR love? NO. Does salvation require our love? NO. should we love God? YES.
5. So to answer your question, “Don’t you think God would be more pleased if you believed his son and kept his commandments.?” the answer is of course yes. But it is through his sanctifying work by grace that we are able to keep the commandments from the inside out. Thus someone who is able to accept the gift of salvation before the rapture, though he has not kept God’s commandments up until that point, will still be covered by the blood of Jesus. Think of the parable of the workers going to work in the field for the master. they all got paid a days wages even though some of them only worked half a day. Are you going to be one of the ones that grumbles because you got paid a days wages for working a full day, or one that rejoices that the others received that same wage by the grace and goodwill of the master.
I am in agreement with you on the law, and on sabbath, but do not believe this will be the mark of the beast, just as I believe that a slave who is forced to work on the sabbath is not guilty of breaking that law, For I also believe in the mercy of the judge. You can also flip that around and say if I keep the sabbath, but have the wrong reason for doing it, will you still be rewarded for obeying the law?

Dru, do you also enjoy doing the rest of the abominations that you do.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. As long as you are doing your abominations, you are facing God and HE sees you do it to His face so when the Locust bites you, remember that it is your keeping on sinning and not repenting from your sin that will cause you to go through 5 months of pain in 2016.
I have learned that believers will be judged for their thoughts, words spoken and written and actions performed but theywill also be judged on keeping God’s laws (the Torah).
As you quoted above Matthew 5:17, you might want to remember that that is till the end of the messianic Kingdom and we are under God’s Laws until the end of the Heaven and the Earth and you might want to remember that you will not be eating bacon in the Messianic Kingdom for everyone will keep God’s laws in the Messianic KIngdom which are found in the Torah (first five books of the Old Testament).
So just go ahead and do your abominations and keep telling God that you hate HIs laws to His face. Keep on doing Mithraism (Sunday Worship, Christmas, and Easter) which is an abomination to God anis also Idol Worship. The early church did not do these abominations before God so what gives you liscense to do them if the early Church did not do them.Do you believe also that you are above God’s laws like the Pharisees and Sadducees. If so, you might want to study Colossians 2:8.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Philosophy. Here the word stands for the heretical Gnostic or pre-Gnostic alternative to the true understanding of who the Messiah is.
Human tradition here is pagan tradition, because it goes along with the elemental spirits of the world (see Gal_4:3). Contrast it with Jewish tradition (including the Oral Torah; Mat_15:2-6, Mar_7:3-13, Gal_1:14) and with Messianic tradition (Rom_6:17; 1Co_11:2, 1Co_11:23; 2Th_2:15; 2Th_3:6).

What do you think about Ron Wyatt claiming to have found the Ark and having discovered 20 feet below the crucifixion site of Christ inside Jeremiahs’ grotto? He has since died but his son’s continue to support his claims and that they know where the Ark has been transferred to awaiting the time given by G-d to reveal it. The antiquities authority was also involved as well.

Sorry but I couldn’t get this video to play, but…
I have been following Ron’s exploits for quite a while. He also discovered Noah’s Ark. The city of Gomorrah, now just ashes, and the site of the Red Sea crossing, complete with 17th dynasty Egyptian chariot wheels. These among many others. I believe he was guided to find these things. I encourage everyone to read his stories and reports. There is also a different video of him before he died in which he describes how he discovered the ark of the covenant and retrieved blood from the mercy seat which when tested for DNA was found to have only female chromosomes – there was no (human) male donor!
I believe his sons will soon dig into the chamber he discovered, coming in from the tunnel that the ark and other temple items such as the table of shewbread were originally brought in through – now completely blocked – sealed by Jeremiah himself 2,500 years ago.
For those who want to learn more about these discoveries go to:http://www.wyattmuseum.com
I find it interesting that all these discoveries have been made in the end times (after the nation of Israel was restored) and all by the same man. This must be part of God’s plan. That is why I believe the ark containing the tablets (and the staff of Aaron) will soon be revealed. Now more than ever it will be important to get people thinking about God, being so close to the final days. Soon everyone will know that God is real and they will have to decide if they want to follow Him and His rules, or not.
I believe the commandments were carved in stone for a reason and they will be found just before the mark of the beast is put into effect. Where people will kame the connection I don’t know, but I pray that everyonereading this will do so.
Bless…

That was an amazing video of Mr wyatt talking about the blood found on the mercy seat. The man reminded me of my father and knowing that his generation didn’t like to cry, I found his testimony genuine if only due to this fact. I watched it several times last year and told family and friends but they all looked at me with great skepticism.

Granted, Wyatt did not present the dna results from the blood work, but it was my understanding that his sons have this info and will present it in due time-hoping they have the results. I couldn’t imagine Mr wyatt getting that far and not remembering to document, document, document! 🙂

Seeing an interview with a rabbi on you tube, they claim they have the ark of the covenant as of the 80s…this was around the same time that Ron wyatt found the ark with the help of the israeli antiquities authority.

I have an old web print-out of Ron’s discovery of the Ark written in the late 80’s. It was before DNA testing so all the lab could say was that it was human blood. But the article was full of detailed technical data and even discussed the fact that some other Ark researchers had looked at the reports and tried to refute his data. But I think that the whole matter was intentionally kept out of mainstream news. Maybe he wanted to wait until he could actually bring it out where the world could see it. He tried to photograph it several times but something caused his film to be completely overexposed. Obviously God was not ready to show the world His handiwork, but I believe that time is quickly approaching. We shall see.
I’m not sure if his wife and sons are taking emails but they may have a facebook or twitter page where we could track their progress. I subscribe to their newsletter and get updates a few times a year. You would thing something this monumental might get way more attention from the media, but as I said, they may be intentionally flying under the radar – for now.
It’s like the hundreds of chariot wheels he found in the Red Sea. I’ve seen hour-long documentaries proving they are down there. But do you hear on the news that the parting of the Red Sea has been proven? I haven’t. Guess they think the Egyptians dumped them off a garbage scow or something. Go figure. Same thing with the ash city of Gomorrah – complete with thousands of sulphur balls (brimstone) embedded in the ashes. Sounds convincing to me but I guess not to the mainstream media. Go figure again.
As for me, I believe. It’s time for all of us to believe. Or else.

I have been in medical science since before 1980. They had the type of DNA testing that Ron Wyatt described in the 1980s. All they had to do is take an electron micrograph of the material and count the chromosomes. Blood typing was also in existence then. As a researcher, and scientist, he should have had documentation of this from the lab. Why he doesn’t i am not sure. If they had refused to give him a report, he would have mentioned that. So where is the report? I would personally like to see why Jesus was AB-, but only had 1/2 the chromosomes.

I think the fact that they were even able to test the blood sample at all is amazing in and of itself being that 2000 year old blood should be dead. This blood was ALIVE and they were able to test it. I am with both of you, in that I do believe Ron Wyatt’s claims if only by “faith” at this point and I also would like to see the lab results if only because of curiousity and of course being able to show it to the world and say “see, I told you so”! lol

I’m sure there is a report out there somewhere, after all the blood was tested by a lab and they had to document their findings, but perhaps they are keeping it under wraps for political reasons.
Imagine if they claimed they had proof that Jesus had no earthly father. It would prove to the Jews that their faith is worthless and might send the Muslim world into a rage, perhaps attacking the excavation crew. As it is, the way they have handled it, us Christians can know the significance and everyone else can claim plausible deniability, so they can continue to think that their religion is true.
Personally, I think this is a smart move, but soon all hell will break loose and there will be no doubt about who the real God is, and then the report can be released. It is simply not time yet. Perhaps when the ark is recovered all there things will fall into place.
Look at Noah’s Ark which Ron also found. It has been recognized by the Turkish government to be the real thing yet virtually no one in the U.S. has even heard of it. Same wit the Red Sea crossing. You would think that would be a tourist site by now with locals taking people out to snorkel amongst the chariot wheels. But nothing – yet.
As in the days of Noah, people are going about their everyday lives not realizing what lies ahead. They have a false sense of security that life will always go on as usual. They don’t understand the prophecy and Satan will lead them like sheep into sin without them even knowing it. I think the recovery of the ten commandments will herald the beginning of the tribulation and those that do not heed them will suffer the last plagues.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The question you must answer is; does Satan want you to pay with a chip or would he rather get you to break God’s commandments? He knows the verses above. If you were Satan, which would you choose? Will you be “sealed” when the end comes? Or will you be marked?
You must think like Satan and think like God if you want to figure this out.
Bless you in your search for the truth.

I found this link interesting but not disturbing. I have a feeling that God may not have wanted the whole world to know about the grotto – yet. I think He is holding back for a time nearer the second coming. Perhaps another 15 years or so.
Just a guess, but I’m still optimistic. God has plans. Of that I’m certain. We just have to wait and see what they are.

I hope its sooner then 15 years James…geez, have you seen the gas prices?! groceries are almost 50% higher then they were 3 mths ago….those of us who used to live “comfortably” are now feeling most uncomfortable!

Hi Lyndsey,
I know everyone is hoping Christ will return tomorrow but I’m afraid much more must happen before the end can come.
Of course everyone has a different scenario in their minds such as the formation of a New World Order and the chipping of 7 billion people etc.
Then there’s the War of Gog, The battles of Daniel (King of the North, King of the South etc. Then there are the seals including WW3 and its aftermath, the emergence of the antichrist and so on.
All this takes place on man’s schedule. God is not going to force these things to happen.
But God has His own schedule. He likes biblical and round numbers it seems. Like 6000 years of man’s reign on earth followed by 1000 years of Christ.’s. He likes to have things work out mathematically. I also believe he schedules events on important anniversaries. The fall df Adam, the flood, the covenant with Abraham etc were probably on the beginning/1000 year anniversaries of the first 6000 years. I believe Jesus’ resurrection came on year 4000, leaving exactly 2000 to go. Also, 2000 years is equal to 40 jubilee times. (Two very biblical numbers). So if Christ died in 31AD we can expect His return in 2031. That’s 23 years from now and it leaves plenty of time for all the final things to happen.
Besides, you know what they say – You can’t hurry love. Since God IS love, it follows that you can’t hurry God.
Be patient folks – All in good time.

Why lunar calendar? Why not prophetic calendar of 360 days a year having 12 months of 30 days. Like we add today leap days already in ancient Babylon leap months were used. Thus you get 3,5 years is Daniels number of days 1260 and when leap month is added you get 1290 days for 3,5 years.

But the Jews also add leap years to their calendar so that spring festivals don’t gradually drift into the summer, fall then winter. I believe God works in actual years in most cases except for prophecy. The prophecy lines in the Great Pyramid are in actual years and the sidereal year is calculated several times and up to 6 decimal places and in many cases it makes more sense to use actual years.
In any case, time will tell…

well…it is my understanding that the year 2008 was the beginning of the final jubilee year (120 jubilees) AND was the beginning of a 7 year sabbatical. The year 2015 will be another sabbatical year…hard to explain it.

So as of 2008, we are in the 120th jubilee year (G-d said His spirit would only stay with us 120 years-interpreted as 120 jubilee years-Genesis 6:3) and as of 2008 we began a 7 year sabbatical with 2015 being a sabbatical year??

and according to the link, we got another gazillion years to go if the tribes of israel don’t return…that they-the jews- haven’t even been counting the jubilee years and they won’t start counting until ALL jews return to israel?…..so why are you still here? pack your bags and go to israel marianne!! I am ready to go home! 😉

Why do you believe in Jesus? I know that these are hard times and there is need for hope, but I don’t understand the Christian belief that Jesus is going to decide to quit allowing needless suffering and just come back and everything is going to be perfect as long as you believe. Ok, the Bible says this and the Bible says that, but have we forgotten that the Bible was written by men and edited time and time again by men. Who really knows the true meaning behind the Bible? I am not trying to bash anyones belief, I just am trying to understand. I believe that Jesus was a real person and that he tried to teach people how they should treat others, but I don’t think he is anymore God like than I am.

Jesus preached against allowing others to suffer. He made it our responsibility to show charity and mercy, as he did. He set the example, and we are supposed to follow his example. He commanded us to heal the sick and set free those who were bound by various problems.

Unfortunately, most people do what they want in stead of caring for others, so there is still suffering in the world. So it is our fault that there is suffering in the world, not his.

That the bible is nothing but a book written by different men is a false claim. There are hundreds of prophecies that have come true that were written, and there are more coming to pass that were predicted. The bible is a supernatural book. God may have used humans as his scribes, but the content is from God. One obvious example is the prediction by the prophet Micah as to where the Messiah, Jesus would be born – in Bethlehem.

Another good example is the prophecy of Isaiah and Jeremiah about the Jews returning to Israel from all over the world, which occurred in 1948.

These are supernatural predictions, and there is no way “just a human” would know these things.

Another one is the mark of the beast. How would the apostle John know about the Verichip, which is to be inserted in either the forehead or the hand?

Jesus said he was the son of God, and then proved it by rising from the dead. There were 120 witnesses to this. So, Jesus is not your typical human.

We can understand the bible with the help of the holy spirit who has been given to us by God.
I cannot change your mind, but these are some things to think about.

Shauna
I believe in Jesus and the Bible, because there is no better example of real love than the creator reaching out to redeem his fallen creation by humbling himself and taking the form of a human, and dying the most humiliating death imaginable. He did all this for humanity, who had fallen away from his created order and deserved only death, the just punishment for our grievous sin.

I also believe in the Bible because all my own personal searches for Truth have led me there. Even now, after walking for many years in the faith, I am discovering these Truths as I enter the word of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit. This “comforter” which enters our hearts is how I know Jesus is real, and is a risen savior, not some man from the past.

In other words, I believe in God and Jesus and the Bible accounts, not just because he is a good example to live by, but because there is no other example worthy to live by. Until you understand and experience the love of God, you have never experienced True Love; for “God IS love”.

Once, I was told what my kind believes in. Then, I was told to search for the son of G-d who died for human sin. It took awhile, but Jesus came to me. Jesus stated for humans who believe in him to pray to G-d the Father in Christ’s name.

It took three years for me. I suppose, G-d was waiting to see if I truely wanted to find him. I state him, but G-d is not a man, or women.

All other religions, and gods desire your death, or good works to live forever. The G-d of the Bible died for all of us, so we do not have to die for G-d.

Good works will be done by Christians, because they will try to be more like Christ. To live forever with G-d the Father you only have to get to knew Jesus, who lived a perfect life, was murdered, and rose from the dead to sit at the right hand of G-d the Father. The Holy Spirit will be sent to you once you knock at G-d’s door looking for Jesus who healed the sick, the blind, and raised the dead.

Christ’s yoke is light. Do not be afraid. You will never be perfect, but you will become a better person with happyness.

It is interesting how so many of the posts get around eventually to keeping or not keeping the Torah. In most Bibles, this is the last chapter of the last book of the “Old Testament”;

Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

It is obvious this is speaking of the last days. What is Yah telling us about this period of time coming up? Verses 4-6 says a lot. Verse 4 talks about remembering the Torah of Moshe, for “ALL” of Israel. Now look at verse 5; Yah sends Elijah the prophet before the day of YHWH. His purpose (verse 6) is to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to the fathers. So, who will be the two witnesses in Revelations and what is their purpose? Does it not say that, “in the mouth of two or more witnesses let a matter be established?” If Yahsuha came to do away with the Law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) why was He seen with them just before His crucifixion? You might say, to show that He had fulfilled the Law and the Prpphets. This is pretty common in Christian Theology. That is a totally wrong interpretation for the word fulfilled, but won’t get into that now. But the fact that the Wintesses to the Law and the Prophets shows up again at the end of time says a lot. I ask again, what is the purpose of all this? Is it not to re-establish in His people Yisreal, the Torah and the Prophets, which both spoke of and established for Yisrael, their Messiah. How fitting for the triumphant return of Yashua to Jerusalem. Just in case you are thinking, well this is just for the Jews, verse 6 answers that; the turning of the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers. This verse is not just meant for a nice homily on Sunday morning about getting your relationship with your family straightened out. While that is great, this means much more than that. The fathers are the Patriarchs; Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In these men, Yah birthed Yisrael. So who are the children? Does not Proberbs say that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child? They are bascially unlearned in the things of Yah and in need of instruction. Rules or laws, if you will. The believeing Jews already cling to the Law (Moses) and the patriarchs (the fathers). The children are those who have not been instructed in the ways of Moses and Elijah. Kind of sounds like the church. This is the restoration of Yisreal, the land and the people. It is what Yom Kippur is all about. When Yah sees us (what is called the church) He sees Yisrael. He sees us no differently than He sees believeing Jews. Believer’s in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are all part of the commonwealth of Yisrael. Not by replacement, but as brothers. It is not coincidence that these are, at least for the most part, the last words from the OT Prophets. You either deal with these things now or wait until all hell is literally breaking loose. Just as John the Baptist made straight the way for Yashua regarding Passover (persoanl redemtption), so Moses and Elijah will make straight the way for Yashua regarding Yom Kippur (the restoration of the all things, the land of Yisrael and His people Yisrael)!!!!!!

I agree with your post as well, although I at times try to point out the phariseeism (I don’t know if that is a word?) on the part of some believers. This only hinders the spread of the Gospel. I am sick and tired of making excuses for the church that would rather impose its will on people rather than having the people do the will of God. God deals with our sinful natures from the inside out through his sanctifying work. It is by his grace that we are able to overcome sin, Therefore it is only God who gets the glory for perfecting us, not man. It keeps us humble when we submit to his authority, for he knows what’s best for us.
This is not a lisence to sin, but it does give christians the duty to confront those that would glorify themselves. Isaiah 42:8 says “I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other…” When some in the church put themselves on a pedestal and glorify themselves and their works, I must speak up, for they are not submitting to God. And by putting a standard of behavior on their followers, they are forcing a morality on people rather than letting God work in their lives.

I’m sorry, but my interpretation for those verses in Malachi 4, are completely different.

To Paraphrase;

Verse (1), The Lord God speaks, about a day in the future (granted, end days), where all who do wickedly will be punished
.
Verse (2), The Lord God speaks, but if you fear and revere Me with all of your heart, the brightness of blessings will follow.

Verse (3) The Lord God speaks, and in those end days, you will tread over, (or rise above) those who are wicked.

Verse (4) The lord God speaks, to remember the Law of Moses simply because at the time that Malachi wrote and spoke these words Moshe’s Law was still in effect. Yeshua hadn’t been born, neither had He died for us, so there was no other alternative available yet.

Verse (5) Question? Are you suggesting here that Elijah, (perhaps he has already been here, or will be one of the two witness) will not testify of Christ?

Verse (6) I believe that this is just referring to when what the truth that is preached by Elijah, will be fully understood as the fathers and children are both of one accord, and agree in understanding.

I will repost the following to express my beliefs for those that believe it necessary still follow the Torah.

The climax of the revelation that was given at Sinai, was the commandment to construct the Mishkan, (or “Tabernacle”.) This relates directly to the redemption secured by the blood of the lamb in Egypt which led directly to the revelation of laws of the altar given at Sinai. Almost 50% of the Book of Exodus is focused of the Mishkan, and the Book concludes with the Shekhinah Glory of God, being revealed at Sinai and filling the Holy of Holies. (Exodus 40:34,35.)

The Book of Leviticus then links the previous paragraph of the Book of Exodus, with the religious practices that were to be conducted within the Mishkan itself, and therefore it focuses upon the various forms of offerings and sacrifices.(ie; zevachim) that were integral to being able to worship God. As this was the climax of God’s revelation at Sinai, the Mishkan became the place of revelation, and focal point of corporate worship.
(Exodus 25:22. 30:36.)
Prophetically speaking, the Mishkan was a foreshadowing, and represented the redemptive plan of God, that culminated in the revelation of Yeshua the Messiah as being the appointed Lamb of God. (ie; seh ha-Elohim.)
Therefore the Book of Leviticus is central to the Torah, and it provides the basis from which we can then understand, the multifaceted meaning in respects to the sacrifice of Yeshua for our reconciliation with God.
All of the great doctrines of the New Testament, regarding Atonement, propitiation of sin, and the meaning of the cross of the Messiah, are all grounded in the sacrificial system that is revealed in the Mishkan.

“Sacrifice” in English, is more closely associated with an act of “self deprivation”, to give up something of value, for something of a perceived greater value. However in the Torah, the concept of sacrifice has more to do with making an offering to God as the means to be able to draw closer to Him. These sacrifices were intended to express gratitude and joy, while at the same time, remove the obstacles that were caused by mans defilement, and sin. In actuality, the most common Hebrew word that is utilized to describe sacrifice is “korban”, which comes from the root “karov”, meaning to “come close”, or to “draw near.” In the Mishkan, “korbanot” consisted of the various ritualized acts that were used for the worshipper to draw near to God.

You may be asking yourself, “What is my point with all of the above?”

Well first, it is to express that the whole point of the Torah was, if we read the white letters, (and being a self professed scholar, you should be familiar with that rabbinical expression), “That to obey, is better than having to sacrifice.”
Secondly, since the Laws were impossible for man to execute with perfection, that required for God to provide that perfection in our stead, in the form of the Messiah. The Torah is simply a foreshadowing of the better New Covenant that Yeshua in His grace performed on our behalf.
To continue to follow the Torah, is in essence to deny Yeshua’s sacrifice! And He by the shedding of His blood, is the only way now to draw near to God the Father.

The sacrifice of Yeshua as the Kohen Gadol, (High Priest) of the “new and better” covenant was a gift to us from God, for those who place their trust in His Son. The Cross literally represents the “kapporet”, (mercy seat) of the New Covenant. For it was on that Cross that He shed His blood for our everlasting reconciliation to God.
It is only because of the Korban of Yeshua, that we can all draw near to God. As well, when the sacrifice was complete and Yeshua did die, the veil of the Temple, the “parochet” the separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place, was rent asunder, thereby granting access to the “Throne of Grace.” Because of the High Priestly work of Yeshua, neither Levitical, or any other mediators for that matter are necessary, and all that now trust in Yeshua, are called “spiritual kohanim.” Followers of Yeshua have an altar of grace, where those who attempt to follow that of the older system, are unable to partake in.

Oh Al,
Please don’t take offence to the,”and being a self professed scholar, you should be familiar with that rabbinical expression”
part. As I said it was a repost, and initially it was directed to someone else. I forgot that it was in there. Sorry.

Sorry it took so long for me to get back with you. Just a lot going on. Regarding taking offence, there is none.

I wanted to respond to some of your comments:

Your comment Verse (5) Question? Are you suggesting here that Elijah, (perhaps he has already been here or will be one of the two witness) will not testify of Christ?

Psalm 40:7-8 (King James Version)
7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luke 24:44 (King James Version)
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

I put these scriptures down to show that Yahshua is one with the word and the word is one with Him! The Law, the prophets, and the Psalms all testified of Him. You can not delcare these things without declaring the Messiah Yashua. If I were to say to you, God’s Right Hand, I would be declaring Yahshua to you, because that is what the Word delcares him to be. You evidently have a certain criteria that you consider to be “testifying of Christ”. I would be interested in knowing what it is.

Your comment Verse (6) I believe this is just referring to when what the truth that is preached by Elijah, will be fully understood as the fathers and children are both of one accord, and agree in understanding.

Luke 1:17 (King James Version)
17And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

If you will notice in this verse in Luke, it is just about the same verse as in Malaki, but with some interpretation. Elijah turns the hearts of the fathers (Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob) to the children, (but where it reads in Malaki, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, it reads in Luke) and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just. My question is, can you see it???? The children are the diobedient and the fathers are the just.

If you will look at the last part of Luke 1:17 it will give you the reason for Elijah coming in the first place, “to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Elijah, whether in bodily form or spirit, is coming to prepare His people (to get the dross out; to restore truth and right understanding; to make His people Holy (set apart) before Him. The church (at least for the most part) not knowing or understanding anything about the Feasts of Yah or the Torah, has lead to a total lack of understanding of a lot of these things. I know you are passionate in defending the Faith. But just as Yah blinded Yisrael in the days of Yahshua, so the gentile church has been blinded to a lot of these things over the past 2000 years. The season of The Fall Feasts brings about the restoration of all things. You are right and to be commended for your passion and love for the Messiah. You are just misunderstanding some things that He desires for you to know and embrace.

One last thing concerning the Torah:

Matthew 5:18 (King James Version)

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The pivotal phrase in this verse is “till “ALL” be fulfilled”. So, how long is the Law in effect? Were all of the prophecies in the Torah, the prophets, and the Psalms fulfilled when Yahshua ascended into the heavens. NO!! Then when will ALL be fulfilled? The prophecies regarding the Messiah and His people and the judgement of the Nations goes until the end of the 1,000 year reign of Messiah. Notice the first part of the verse, “Till heaven and earth pass! These are the words of Yahshua. If this is wrong, show me where it is wrong. I am willing to listen!!!

Glad that you realized that my comment wasn’t directed at you, and that there was no hard feelings about it.

Regarding what you say above….
Sorry, but I am not really sure what you are trying to convey?
Where you say above, “I put these scriptures down to show that Yahshua is one with the word and the word is one with Him! The Law, the prophets, and the Psalms all testified of Him. You can not delcare these things without declaring the Messiah Yashua. If I were to say to you, God’s Right Hand, I would be declaring Yahshua to you, because that is what the Word delcares him to be.”

Well, I would agree fully with that, and would add, that Yeshua is “IT!”

That everything leads to, and consists solely of HIM. That if you try to add to Him and what He did in anyway, you are diminishing that act of sacrifice for us.

You and I appear to interpret scripture differently as well.
I think that we will just have to agree to disagree.
Shalom,
Blessings >

I understand that the discussion is pretty much over with. Just wanted to leave this question with you; If the Torah was done away with, where are the witnesses to this most major of events? Every one quotes Paul, but really no one else. Why did Yah require two or more witnesses in matters of importance? So that there could be no doubt and no misunderstanding. Why would Yah go against His own word and supposedly make this most momentous decision to nullify the Torah, and only use one witness? Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. If there only seems to be one witness, could it be that there is a misunderstanding, concerning the doing away with the Torah, in the teachings of Paul?

2 Corinthians 13
1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Matthew 18:16 (King James Version)
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

1 Timothy 5:19 (King James Version)
19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Just wondering, are you insinuating that we should disregard Paul’s 13 epistles?

Assume simply because he was the major writer, or orator of them that he was also alone, and not accompanied by another apostle, or witness?

Romans 16:21,22 would infer that they had perhaps been introduced to Timothy,(his fellow worker), Lucius, Jason, Sosipater, Gaius, Erastus, Quartus, and Tertius who wrote the epistle. (for just one out of many examples)
We know for a fact that Paul was with Barnabas, and with Timothy during many journeys. And Judas and Silas as well when they all went to Antioch

Do we disregard that all the other apostles and elders became silent and listened to what Barnabas and Paul had to say during the Jerusalem Council?

Do we disregard that after hearing what was said, James himself confirmed a conclusion that he reached based on that information, and that Gentiles were also indeed a part of God’s plan of inheritance?

Do we just chuck out the New Testament altogether?

I could go on Al. I don’t believe that you have enough foundational evidence to support your position that couldn’t be addressed with scripture or supportive information to the contrary.

Paul was simply one of the greatest apostles, and a martyr for Christ as well. I can not simply disregard what he has to say, because I believe that he speaks God the Fathers word.

It is only natural that Paul wrote majority of letters because he was operating in the area of Rome where it was customary to send letters. For his desciples Jesus earlier said that go at first to the lost sheep of Israel. Similarly like Paul the Spirit guided them where to go. One went to India, another to northern Europe etc. I long wondered what did He mean by saying that you cannot go thru all Israeli cities before I come back. The obvious reason is that these lost tribes are spread all over the world, some even in very small communities.

I am glad you wrote back. Just to be clear, if you go back and read my post again, you will see that I have no problems with Paul. In fact, just the opposite. He is one of the most learned and respected of the Apostles and I agree 100% with that. I never even hinted at doing away with his writings and teachings. I fully embrace them.

My comment from the other post; If there only seems to be one witness, could it be that there is a misunderstanding, concerning the doing away with the Torah, in the teachings of Paul?

Your Knee jerk reaction is to think I am bashing Paul. That is the furthest thing from the truth. The misunderstanding mentioned above, is with the church, not Paul. The other Apostles had a difficult time understanding Paul, and they were all Jews from a Jewish culture. But they embraced him as a fellow co-worker in the Messiah. They (the other Apostles) were the witnesses with Paul, along with Yahshua. and the Word. Paul was nothing less than a Torah keeping Jew, blameless. Banrnabas, Timothy and the others you mentioned, were co-workers with Paul, but had no place in being a witness to the subject we are talking about, which is the Torah being nullified. I have the highest regard for theses men and the role they played in helping to bring the Messiah to the gentiles. It directly affects me and you. Paul and the other apostles are in agreement. Because the church, through bad translations and a desire to get away from anything considered Jewish, changed times and seasons, we have the traditions now that haunt us and keep us from the fullness of what Yah has for us.

Question; who changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the first day. Yahshua didn’t and the Apostles didn’t. I understand what is said about Yahshua rising from the dead on the first day of the week. There is controversy about that, but won’t go there now. Just simply, where does it say that the Sabbath was to be changed? I know that Emperor Constantine (the creater of the all gentile church) didn’t like anything that smacked of Jewry. The believers of that day traded the things of Yah for a cessation of persecution, allowing a pagan Roman Emperor to create The Roman Catholic Church, which in turn, has created a total ignorance of our rootsand foundation. What the church believes now has almost a 2000 year history. It is so ingrained in us, it is almost impossible to budge someone from it. It is a lot easier to believe there are no rules and we are not responsible for anything any longer. Doesn’t it seem strange that Paul, who had supposedly thrown off the commandments and the Torah, circumsized Timothy personally. Timothy was half gentile and half Jew. How does Paul do this and then supposedly teach that we no longer keep the Torah? Because the church doesn’t understand what Paul was saying, they are content to go with things as they are. It is too difficult at this point to change. But the time for dealing with this is near. It is the 144,000 who will, with the two witnesses, bring all things into the light and turn the disobedient to the Father and His Messiah.

25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I had a dream on the night of 6/3/10, from which I tried to wake myself but could not. I had to go through the whole thing, and then when i did finally awake in a cold sweat, I had to go and write it down. I have not talked to anyone about this dream, but the Begley video about being betrayed by those around you struck a chord, and made me think of it. The dream was a personal prophecy, not so much one for the rest of the church, but it has some relavence to the church. In this dream, I was forced to go to trial to prove my “value to our family and society”. This made me think of the scales of the third seal. Before heading into the trial, I was forced to fill out a questionaire in order to find my value (worth). The court case was much like any court case you would see in modern courts, but in the end my wife took the stand in my defense (supposedly) and then proceded to attack me and the things I had valued (my faith). I then was given a chance to make a final statement, but what was said left me. (I believe that this was the testimony of the spirit, and this was why it left me).

Many of the details and words in the dream were vivid and personally related to my family, some of which have already occurred, or are in the process of occurring in my life. For example, I had a situation with one of my kids coaches for a sport, where i had to confront him about certain things. I have done this with my wife’s agreement, but in the end, in the trial she turns and uses this against me. Its as if I am living certain events in my life knowing full well the outcome of each.

Around this time is also when I began to delve into prophecy in the Bible, This dream led me there, to search for what it all meant.
I Do not know if this will benefit any of the christians that are out there, but the verses which stuck out for me were Luke 21:14-19
and Matthew 24:10,12. “And then many will fall away and betray one another.v12 and because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.”

Luke 21:14 in particular struck me because i was not “allowed” to remember my final statements. I came to realize that this was so that I would not be allowed to “meditate beforehand (on) how to answer.”
I guess I felt like this was the right time to reveal this dream of mine, and would like to see if their was anyone else out there who have seen dreams of this kind. At any rate, I am seeing the lawlessness increase, and the love of many growing cold around me.

A question for you marianne, do you think that personal prophecies such as this are revealed, or must they always be more general?

I am a firm believer in G-d giving us dreams and visions as is stated in Acts?

Within a year, I have had a dream of the “rapture”. First one was last March 2010. The last one had 2 moons? maybe one was a planet, not sure…but the second one was enormous!!

Over the years, I have found that G-d will often times communicate with us in dreams about what is to come.

The fact that you can remember this dream and that it had this great an affect on your emotions tells me this was most likely a “G-d dream” 🙂

Most of our dreams are fuzzy, in black and white and soon forgotten.

Hey Marianne,

What about doing a “dream post” where we can put our dreams down and see if there is a pattern. To see how G-d is communicating with His kids that don’t know each other and come from different parts of the world?

All I want to say is please don’t believe the idiots trying to push the “2 suns” idea. It is all just bunk. They are all simply optical effects whether in the atmosphere or the camera. If the solar system really has two suns, surely it would be known by this time. Surely the “other” sun would become visible during a solar eclipse.It should also be quite visible at sunrise and sunset. Have you ever seen it? It can’t hide from the entire scientific world. An if it’s new, where did it come from and why didn’t anyone see it as it approached our sun? The whole idea is total nonsense.
Yes, we are told to look for signs in the heavens as the second coming draws near. But are these signs so lame they can only be viewed on YouTube? Is Jesus’ return really going to be that subtle? I fear that sane people who look at this so-called “evidence” that the second coming is upon us are going to think we are just a bunch of nuts clinging to any little trace of hope that bible events are coming to pass.
So I will have to be the voice of reason here I guess. Don’t fall for this crap or you will bring us all down to the same level as the YouTube yuksters who get off by fooling gullible people into believing their tales of fancy.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He is not a wizard, he’s just a faker.
Make like the scarecrow – get yourself a brain!So there.

James
Just to make you feel better I will not believe it till i see it myself (2 suns). If it is real, you should be able to see it using binoculars/telescope and a welding visor at dawn. I think marianne puts this stuff out there so that we can discern for ourselves what is true or not. I personally like this sight because you can think outside of the conventional way of thinking (A tool of Brainstorming). When you brainstorm, you throw a lot of crazy ideas out there, and get feedback from those you are brainstorming
with.
My wow above was for the begley video, not for the 2 suns stuff, because some of the things he said struck a chord with the dream i mentioned above.
I welcome your comments on that if you so feel led?

Hey Dru,
Actually, I hadn’t watched the Begley video, so I just did now so I can respond.
First of all, as a student (long ago) with a minor in geology, I have been tracking the frequency of natural disasters for quite a while in an attempt to see if there is a noticeable increase in the power or frequency of these events and I’m convinced that there is. But are they the signs foretold by Jesus as the signs of His coming? I doubt it. First of all, the signs Jesus gave were actually the seven seals of Revelation, in the same order, to be fulfilled sequentially. Begley is lumping them all together using current events.
As for the China event, I don’t believe it was anything more than an optical illusion – like a mirage. In the news report it described a clear, sharp disc (the sun) with a diffused,fuzzy disk next to it (the mirage). If there were truly two suns (which we all agree is not astronomically possible without throwing the earth out of it’s present orbit), it should have been visible and photographed everywhere else on that side of the planet – especially in areas where it was clear and not so cloudy. You will notice that all these 2-suns effects happen on cloudy days. It’s part of the effect.
Now if God simply created a miracle and made two suns appear intentionally, why did he do it for the area of the earth where there are so few Christians? All his hard work fell on blind eyes and deaf ears, so to speak. Why did He leave all of us true believers who are waiting for His signs out of the picture?
Sorry, but as anxious as I am to see these future signs, I refuse to pander to people like Begley who want us to believe that these pitiful sightings are supposed to be majestic signs of the one true God. O, His signs will be unmistakable, and all will see them clearly. My God is not going to rely on YouTube idiots to harken His second coming.
I admit, it’s fun to look at, but no true believer should take this stuff seriously.
I’m waiting for the real thing.

James
You don’t think that having two thousand year magnitude quakes in the past two years is significant, not to mention the countless 6.5+ magnitude quakes in that same time frame?
As for the order of the seven seals, I personally believe they are occurring at this time. The four horsemen are amongst us now waiting to be unleashed. The coming theocracy in the muslim world being the fourth is just coming together. I believe they will be released simultaneously, along with the persecution of the church (the fifth seal). The order your referring to being the order they have been founded. Catholocism = white horse, Secularism/Atheism = red horse, Protestantism = black horse, Islamic theocracy = Chloros(green) horse, And their respective governmental ideals.
As you know, secularism by way of the renaissance/ illuminati, as well as protestantism were reactionary movements to the Dogma of the Catholic church. Each unto itself had both good and bad parts to them, with eventually the bad overtaking the good due to the sinfulness of man. Though the muslim religion has been around longer than the reformation and secularism, it is only now beginning to get rid of the monarchical or dictatorial forms of government imposed on them by the catolic/ western world, and the theocracy is being set up.
If you don’t agree with my interpretation of the seals, that is one thing, but then let me hear yours, and have the debate, so that the truth may come out.

I believe that the seven seals are simply the Olivet Prophecy reiterated. Jesus is simply repeating them in the Book of Revelation. They appear in the exact same order, and as you know, most everything in the bible is stated more than once, especially if it is important.
Since they are both in the same order one must assume that they occur consecutively and not all at once.
The four horseman represent the Antichrist which I agree is part of the catholic church (the next pope). This is followed by war – WW3 in fact, a nuclear holocaust, followed by hunger and starvation, followed by disease and pestilences. Each of the last three is caused by the previous seal. They are inevitable occurrences and not acts of God. Man will bring these on himself and if left to continue there will be “no flesh left alive.”
After the seven seals come the 7 trumpets followed by the 7 vials of judgement (plagues) afflicting those who have the mark of the beast. 21 events, all in order.
While there has been a noticeable increase in natural disasters, I’m not so sure they are the work of God. If so, scientists would have declared them as such. No, these are not the seals. They are just a prelude. The seals will be unmistakable.
While I agree with your assessment of the various churches as being apostate, there is no scriptural references to them, only the church of Rome – the woman who sits on seven hills, is described in Revelation. This mother of harlots also has daughter (protestant) churches that will also be judged and found wanting, so I got you there, but the seals? No, these are end-time events and should not happen until after the fig tree has sprouted (1948 when Israel was restored).
I know everyone ones to think we are super close to the second coming, so they tend to grasp at every little event that they can make fit the prophecy, but I am patient, now although I wasn’t always.
But I would like to have your thoughts on the woman that sits on 7 hills and the mark of the beast. Perhaps I will catch you on Marianne’s other blog page – Is the woman who sits on 7 hills really Rome?
In any case, be well and God bless.

James
Thank you for your response above, it was insightful, as well as repectfull.

I agree with you that the olivet discourse is a orderly account of the seals, Matthew 24:8 says that “theses (the first four seals) are but the beginning of the birth pains.” (ESV Parenthesis added) This marks the start of the tribulation. (note: not the “great tribulation”) This is probably where you disagree with me?

Much like your reading of revalation, I too always thought of the seals, trumpets and vials all coming one after the other. But then when I studied revalation 12, it was clearly talking about the death and resurrection of Jesus, and his victory over Satan, which happened on the cross.

After seeing this, backjump in revalation, I began to look for the keys that would unlock this backjump. Then it hit me,(or the Holy Spirit hit me as the case was), Revalation was written like a disaster story depicting multiple characters with varying stories leading up to that catastrophic event (The Day of the Lords return.) So therefore, the book of revalation explains the history of the churches to the return of the Lord, The seven seals through to the day of the Lord, the seven trumpets through to the day of the lord, the vials, the history of the jewish state to the day of the Lord etc.
So the question then became what signifies the Day of the Lord, you have to go to the Old testament to find the answer, in the hidden prophecies of Asaph, (that is worthy of a different study) Namely Psalms 50,73-83. Psalm 50:2-3 “Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God shines forth. 3. Our God Comes; he does not keep silence; Before him, a devouring fire, around him a mighty tempest.” (ESV) Also Ezekial 38:19-23 Talks about the great earthquake, torrential rains and hailstones etc. on the day of the lords return. (Note: this also places Gog and magog in the timeline of revalation)

see also Revalation 4:5, 8:5, 11:19, 16:18,21. These are the transitions you will find in Revalation (Note: the transition btween the seven trumpets and seven vials is more subtle (rev14:14-20) but you will see the results thereof “wine press of God’s wrath”.)

Sorry if this is poorly worded, my point is that if I was writing a book, with multiple characters (plots), I could do it one of two ways, in perfect sequential order, (One character wakes up at seven AM, then next character at 7:10 AM ad infinitum.) what you would end up with is story that jumps from place to place, person to person, setting to setting; In other words a confusing mess. Or you can write the story of one character to its conclusion, and then the next,etc. The problem with this second method is that it is difficult to know when one character took a shower in the morning, in relation to when the other person ate breakfast. A good writer will know how to give clues as to where these occur, and God is a good writer. For example, look for passages that sound like the fifth seal, the persecution of the Christians. This also will help place many of the old testament prophecies in context with the timeline such as Gog and Magog wars.

James, when the Spirit revealed this way of understanding prophecy and particularly Revalation, it has opened a whole new window of insight into the Bible. Revalation is no longer confusing and disjointed, but rather a literary masterpiece. I am truly amazed at the beauty of God’s inspired word. The words of the old testament also fit perfectly with this. It is like when Gallileo placed the sun at the center of the solar system, and all the retrograde motion of the planets was explained away.

As for the woman that sits on seven hills, This is the catholic church. During the tribulation (first 3.5 years) the “dragon” will attack the saints (see revalation 12:17, But those who “hold to the testimony of Jesus” will make him unsuccesful, because he is “standing on the sand of the sea” AKA a poor foundation (Think of the weekness of atheism and evolutionary theories). After this he will coopt the catholic church and stand on the foundation of theism (there is a God), and will give his authority to the beast. The harlot will be tolerated for a time, (used as tool for gaining power) but eventually the beast will kill her as well. This false religion will then support the Beast in its quest to anhialate true Christians.

As for the mark of the Beast, I am not 100% certain of yet. I know you believe it is keeping the sabbath. But I will go back to Asaph again and quote psalm 50:16-17 “But to the wicked God says: ‘what right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenent on your lips? 17. for you hate discipline and cast my words behind you.'” Verse 22-23 then concludes; “Mark this, then you who forget God, lest I tear you apart and there be none to deliver! 23. The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me; to the one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God.”
Thus the wicked will be quoting God’s statutes (laws, works?) But those that offer thanks giving as his sacrifice (not a work) Glorify him. So in my opinion, it will be the ritualism of the church that will be the mark of the beast.

I hope this makes sense, as I am not by any means an expert in prophecy, but the Spirit in me is revealing many wonders in the Word of God to me, And I am still grasping at understanding all of them.

In closing I will end with a question, or rather a request of you, Try reading revalations with the idea that it is story written with multiple story lines all leading to one event, and then tell me why this is the wrong way to see revalation.
May the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth lead You.

I don’t believe that I have seen you out here before. My name is Don and I thought that I would respond to your’s and James debate. Hope you don’t mind.

You wrote:
“I agree with you that the Olivet discourse is a orderly account of the seals, Matthew 24:8 says that “theses (the first four seals) are but the beginning of the birth pains”

Rebuttal:
I’m not sure of whether or not that you are making the claim that we are currently experiencing the seals or not, but I will throw them in here anyway. I believe that the 1st seal/white horse is the ruler, antichrist, the man of lawlessness who is Satan’s counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Rev.20:11-16 which is Jesus Christ, the Word of God.
Therefore, since I believe that the antichrist is the 1st seal, that would mean that he would have to be revealed prior to the events of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th seals taking place and since we have yet to see him, ergo, neither the 2nd, 3rd or 4th seals have taken place.

You wrote:
“Much like your reading of revelation, I too always thought of the seals, trumpets and vials all coming one after the other”

Rebuttal:
By his statement above, I am assuming that you do not consider that the seals, trumpets and bowls to be in chronological order. I have also looked at the possibility of the seals, trumpets and bowls running parallel to one
another, but it just becomes a big mess, as nothing matches up. The only simularities is the mention of the 6th seal and the 7th bowl, which mentions an earthquake of
which both affect the islands and the mountains, But upon closer
inspection, John lists the one in the 6th seal as a “Great Earthquake” and the one in the 7th bowl as “No earthquake like it ever occurring since man has been on the earth” which would include the one that he mentions in the
6th seal. Also, with the earthquake in the 6th seal the islands and mountains are moved out of their places (shifted), where the result from the earthquake in the 7th bowl, John states that the islands flee away and the mountains are not found. Though the 6th seal has a great earthquake, it is not equal to the one that takes place at the 7th bowl judgment, which is
unprecedented and therefore, they are just two different earthquakes.

Similarly, the 6th seal cannot be synonymous with the events of the return of Christ in Rev. 19:11-16, for if you will notice, in the event of the 6th seal, the kings, princes, generals, the rich, the mighty and everyone else
are hiding in caves and among the rocks of the mountains and calling to the mountains and rocks to fall on them in order to hide them from the face of Him who sits upon the throne. In contrast, in John’s description of the Lord’s return in Rev.19:11-16, those same kings, generals and mighty men are not hiding, but are making war against the rider on the horse as He is returning to the earth.
In regards to the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowls, they are all separate, chonological events.

Furthermore, we do know from Scripture that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are in fact chronological by looking at the following Scripture:

“I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.” (Rev.15:1)

Now, in the verse above it states that there are seven angels with the seven “last” plagues. Since the bowl judgments, as a unit, are said to be the last plagues, then it must follow that there must be plagues that will take place first, that is, prior to the bowls, otherwise, they could not be called “Last,” and therefore, “Last” would infer chronology. In other words, since the bowl judgments are said to be last, then there has to be
plagues that will be first, correct? Since the bowl judgments are said to be the last plagues which complete God’s wrath, then the seals would be first, the trumpets are the second set of judgments, with the bowls completing God’s wrath, they being last.

You wrote:
“But then when I studied revelation 12, it was clearly talking about the death and resurrection of Jesus, and his victory over Satan, which happened
on the cross.”

Rebuttal:
There are many people who interpret the “Male Child” that the woman gives birth to as referring to Jesus, but this is easy to easy to disprove. Someone, somewhere, at some time, read the designation “Male Child”
and deduced that this was in representation of Jesus because the woman (Israel) gave birth to Him. Though it is true that Jesus, as far as the flesh is concerned, comes from the tribe of Judah, this is not what is meant
by the woman giving birth. A problem with many expositors is that, once a person comes up with
an interpretation, then a whole lot of people follow suit without question, and this happens to be one of those issues. So, the question is, does Jesus fit
the criteria of being the “Male Child?” To get the answer to this question we must of course read the Scripture.

“The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.”

We know that the dragon is identified as Satan in Rev.12:7-9 and we know that the woman is Israel as revealed in Gen.37:9-10. Therefore, Satan is waiting in the presence of Israel to kill her child the moment it is born
and she gives birth to a male child, but as soon as it is born and before Satan can devour it, it is “snatched up” to God and to his throne. The meaning of this is
that, before Satan can do anything to the child, it is snatched up to
God before he can kill it. I would point out that the words translated “Snatched up” is the same Greek word “Harpazo,” which denotes “Force suddenly exercised or a snatching away” and it is the same word used in 1 Thess.4:16 to describe the church being “snatched up” or “Caught up” to meet the Lord in the air. It is also the same word used in Acts 8:39 when after Philip had baptized the eunuch, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly “took Philip
away” and he appeared in the city called Azotas. It is also the same word used in 2 Cor.12:4 where Paul said that he was “Caught up” to the third heaven where he received visions and revelations and things that man is not
permitted to speak. My point is that, before Satan can devour, that is, kill the male child, he is “Snatched up” to God’s throne before Satan can harm him. I will go as far as to say that, this male child will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up in the same manner as the living church at the time of the Lord’s appearing. Now, does
Jesus fit the criteria of the male child? The answer is a definite No! Jesus was born, started his ministry at the approximate age of 30 years old and was crucified right on time and according to plan and praise be to God and Amen! In contrast to the male child, Jesus was killed and not snatched up to God’s throne before anything could happen to him. So in keeping with the Scripture, Jesus would in fact have been devoured, that is, killed by Satan at the hands of men. I believe that the male child is a collective name for the 144,000, which the nation Israel gives birth to, that is, these 144,000 Israelites come to the knowledge by the grace of God that Jesus is their is their Messiah, ergo, gives birth to. Something else to take note of in relation to the designation “male child” is that in Rev.14, these 144,000 are shown to be all males, ergo, the male child

Now some will argue that it mentions that the male child will “rule all nations with an iron scepter” and so this has to be Jesus. Not so! Though this position is given to Jesus, it is also said of the male child, as well as a promise given to all believers who overcome as promised in the letter to the church of Thyatira, which says:

“To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations– He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them
to pieces like pottery–”

So you see, Jesus, the male child and all overcomers will share in this position and that it is not exclusive to Jesus. Therefore, those who make the argument that this is speaking exclusively about Jesus would be in error as I believe I have just shown.

You also wrote:
“So the question then became what signifies the Day of the Lord,”

Though the “Day of the Lord” is mentioned throughout the OT, we do not need to go there to know when it begins, as this information is contained in Paul’s outline of the “Day of the Lord” starting in 1 Thess.4:13-18 through 5:1-11. From 4:13 through 4:18 Paul outlines the resurrection and catching away as taking place first, referring to this event as the “Day of the Lord”. In 5:1-2 Paul then outlines peace and safety and then sudden destruction which follows. So, the resurrection and catching away, followed by the wrath, both fall under the banner of “The Day of the Lord,” with the resurrection and catching away initiating it.
In fact, in the OT, the catching away, as being apart of the day of the Lord, was not known or even revealed to them, as it was still a mystery which Paul revealed to the Corinthians found in
1 Cor.15:51, when he said, “Listen, I tell you a mystery.”

In any case, I thought that I would share some of what I have garnered from my studies.

You wrote:
“As for the woman that sits on seven hills, This is the Catholic church. During the tribulation (first 3.5 years) the dragon will attack the saints (see revelation 12:17), But those who hold to the testimony of Jesus will make him unsuccessful, because he is standing on the sand of the sea AKA a poor foundation (Think of the weakness of atheism and evolutionary theories). After this he will coopt the Catholic church and stand on the foundation of theism (there is a God), and will give his authority to the
beast. The harlot will be tolerated for a time, (used as tool for gaining power) but eventually the beast will kill her as well. This false religion
will then support the Beast in its quest to annihilate true Christians.

Rebuttal:
I agree with you here in regards to the woman who sits on seven hills being Roman Catholicism/Vatican, but I strongly disagree with the saints being persecuted during the first 3 1/2 years, because it is at the middle of the seven years, that is, the beginning of the second
3 1/2 year period, of the great tribulation, that this ruler shows his true colors and sets up the
abomination of desolation in the temple, for this is when he begins to proclaim himself to be God. We also know that it is the last
3 1/2 years because in Rev.7:9-17 John sees a vision of them and the elder asks who they are. He then tells John that these are those who have come out of the “Great
Tribulation” and we know that this time period begins at the middle mark leading up until the end when Jesus returns. It would make no sense for the beast to make war and to conquer the saints from the beginning of the seven to the middle, for what happens to them from the middle on? What does the
beast do, give up on them? They will be persecuted from the middle of that last seven years all the way leading up to Christ’s return. In fact, it is at the middle point of the seven years when all hell literally breaks loose! Here is a list of the events that take place at or near the middle of the seven:

Abaddon/Apollyon (beast) released from the Abyss. (Rev.910–11)

Beast kills the two witnesses at the middle of the seven. (Rev.11:3-12)

Satan and his angels thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth, wich is the 3rd woe! (Rev.12:4,7-12)

Abomination that causes desolation of Jerusalem is set up. (Dan.9:27;
Rev.13:14-15 )

Woman/Israel flees into the desert where she is taken care of for last 3 1/2 years until the Lord’s return. (Mt.24:15-24; Rev.12:6,13-16)

Cash, checks, credit and debit made obsolete which forces all to receive the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy or sell (Rev.13:16-18)

Beast makes war and conquers the great tribulation Saints during the last 3 1/2 years. (Dan.7:25-27; Rev.13:5–7)

You also wrote:
“As for the mark of the Beast, I am not 100% certain of yet. I know you believe it is keeping the Sabbath. But I will go back to Asaph again and quote psalm 50:16-17 “But to the wicked God says: ‘what right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips? 17. for you hate discipline and cast my words behind you.'” Verse 22-23 then concludes; “Mark this, then you who forget God, lest I tear you apart and there be none to
deliver! 23. The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me; to the one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God.”
Thus the wicked will be quoting God’s statutes (laws, works?) But those that offer thanks giving as his sacrifice (not a work) Glorify him. So in my opinion, it will be the ritualism of the church that will be the mark of the beast.”

Rebuttal:
With all due respect, none of the Scriptures that you listed above have anything to do with the
mark of the beast. James is the one who thinks that the mark is not a literal mark, but that one receives the mark by making the decision to observe the Sabbath day on Sunday, which has to do with the law, which covenant we are not under. For regarding foods, feasts, holy days, circumcision, Scripture
says the following:

Colossians 2:13-17
“When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And
having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New
Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.”

So here, sections of the law are mentioned namely, the food law, law for feasts and all holy days, including all Sabbath’s. For on that day there will be those who say, But Lord, Lord didn’t we (Whatever works a person is attempting to aid in salvation).

As Paul said, no one will be justified by observing the law and whoever is, is bound to observe the whole law, all 800 or so of them. And if you break
anyone one of them at any point, you’ve broken the whole law.

How miserable to think that one must observe the Sabbath on Saturday, in order to aid in his or her salvation, instead of looking to the finished work of
Christ on the cross!

Hi Dru,
You know when I first started studying the Book of Revelation I was told that the events occur in parallel rather than in series (sorry for the electrical reference). I believed it for the longest time until I read a piece recently that explained it in complete detail. I now understand that the seven trumpets are part of the seventh seal and the seven vials are part of the last trump. You are right about how the book was written. It turns out there are several “insets” in what otherwise is a continuous story. It’s kind of like the old “Meanwhile, back at the ranch” insets in old silent western movies. When viewed in this light, the whole layout of the book falls into place. Seems like we both had similar epiphanies, but with totally different results.
The study I read was over 50 pages long so I can’t really explain it well in this thread so I won’t try. Enough to say I’ve looked at it from both side now and still somehow I’m convinced the events will happen in the order they were viewed and written, not including the insets of course.
Anyone else want to chime in on this one?

James
as you say above, we are on similar track. And I do see the trumpets and vials as part of seventh seal. I Just believe that the four horsemen are here amongst us and will be released if not at once, in quick succession. (a concession on my part)

Do you see the historical relationship of the seven churches to the history of Christianity? For example how Laodocian church is like ours today etc. Philadelphia is also quite unique in that it is refering to the church in colonial U.S. which was founded in the “new Philadelphia. (my opinion of course)

Oh, by the way, I tried to see the two suns, no luck. I also know that their are several things that must occur before the seals are released, Theocracy in Muslim world being one of them. We are however, very close though, I’d say within next 5-10 years to fifth seal if not sooner?

While the first horseman (“Many will come in My name”) may already be here, the next three (war, starvation and disease) are not. Many look around and see turmoil in the middle east, hunger in Africa and cholera in Haiti and think these are the seals.
The war must be big – bigger than WW2 – or else why would it be a seal? I’m sure many Christians thought WW2 was a seal, but they were wrong. It was not time yet – Israel was not yet a nation. (This will be the war described by Daniel). Now the time is right. And WW3 will be much bigger, It will kill hundreds of millions. Nuclear winter will soon follow, Food will be scarce. Millions more will die and the beasts of the earth will feast on their carcasses. The rotten flesh will become a breeding ground for all sorts of pestilences which will kill billions more.
These seals will come in rapid succession, but don’t look for them now. Look for a political environment that will lead to global war. And don’t forget the war of Gog which must come first The Muslims in the middle east are gearing up for it now. Look for a Caliphate to form, headquartered in Turkey. If you are looking for prophetic fulfillment, this is where you will find it. And while the war of Gog may lead directly to WW3, it is still too early to look for the rest of the seals.
Of course it’s fun to look around and speculate and I’m sure people will continue to do so until the real thing happens, finally.
As for me, I’m patient, so I’ll pass on the fun. I’ll keep trying to keep things in proper perspective until that day happens.
Be blessed…

Dru,
Yes, the historical relationship of the seven churches to the history of Christianity is an important part of the prophecy, but I don’t believe that the colonial church(es) could qualify as “Philadelphian.” The church at Philadelphia represents the true church – the one Christ will marry when he returns. The fact that Jesus will “marry His “bride” proves that a woman in prophecy represents a church (either true or apostate).
But the colonial churches were not true churches. They defied God’s fourth commandment and failed to honor the true sabbath. Most of them also honored pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter among other things. They also failed to honor the Jewish fall festivals (the first four have been fulfilled). Even the early seventh-day Adventists failed to do this.
Jesus told His disciples that there would be an “end-time Elijah” who would “set things right.” He would found a “Philadelphian” church, but he would pass from the scene and his church would become Laodicean except for a tiny remnant led by someone He called “That prophet.”
So the true church exists today but it is very small. Most of Christianity is Laodicean. Some are truly apostate.
The good news is that the modern church of Philadelphia is out there. Look for it. You just might find it.
Bless, everyone…

James
What are the verses you are quoting regarding end time Elijah? I know that the Latter day saints claim Joseph Smith as their prophet, and adventists have Ellen??(Name escapes me). I would like to see what bible says in context.
Would it be the last verse of the OT?

What is your response to psalm 50 regarding the offering of thanksgiving? What is the psalm 82 war describing and when will it occur? I think the Gog Magog war describes the war just before the lord’s return, while psalm 82 describes the attack on Israel that will get “swallowed up” by the earth (Rev 12:16). Note: the nations of first war (Psalms) are not in Gog war, while Gog war talks about all the nations not just arabic ones.

As for Philadelphia church, you say it is the church created by the final prophet, does that not mmean that it should be last in the order? that would be contradicting what you said about the order of events in the Revalation? If then you say that there is an end times re-formation of the seven churches then what church fits what movement?
this is an interesting concept though.

Thank you though for your responses, I think we are largely in agreement though. The Lord will show us who is right on the minutia when the time comes. I don’t think God will punish us for not fully understanding the prophecies, so long as our hearts are true, and our faith is true.

Here is a line from the booklet “The Key of David” from the Pholadelphia Church of God:

Malachi 4:5-6 show that God planned to send a man in the
office of Elijah to this sick world just before Christ’s return.
This Elijah would teach about God’s Family. Matthew 17:10-11
also show that this man would restore all things to the Church.

Here are the verses:
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(This prophecy is dual – it applied to both John the Baptist and an end-time prophet.

As for the order of the churches, as I said, the End-Time Elijah was to come, restore the true church, then die. After that his church would turn Laodicean. So we need to look for a restored church (sabbath-keeping) that reverted to a Laodicean state after the death of its founder.
I admit, it takes a lot of study to understand all of this, including many minor prophets, but after a while it all begins to fall into place and makes sense. I believe it is well worth the effort if you are looking for the true end-time church (or churches).
And while Ellen White did found the modern 7th Day Adventist movement, I don’t believe she was the prophet mentioned. She was about 100 years too early.

I hope you will look into this more deeply and I hope I have given you a starting point for more study. Good luck and God bless.

I am wondering if you would mind if I expressed something here?
Initially it may sound to be philosophical in nature, however, I will back it up with some scripture at the end.
I realize that you hold true to your belief that keeping the Sabbath is of the utmost importance. To the point even that you believe it has relevance to the mark of the beast.

May I say this though, if we attempt to understand the completeness of what God the Father consists of, we have to come to the conclusion that He lacks of nothing. He is full, and complete in Himself. Therefore, there is nothing that we can do of our own accord to possibly add to Him whatsoever.
With keeping that in mind, the Old Covenant consisted then of sacrificial acts, rituals, and traditions, that were created for mans benefit, in an attempt to maintain a position to where they could by theses demonstrations, pay homage, and worship God. (Though again, God does not “need” our worship, for He needs, or requires nothing.)

These demonstrations all consisted solely of an external nature, and by performing them, (which they were obligated to do under the law), they still did not produced the desired effect of intimacy within relationship.
There were only a choice few at any given time, that had been blessed with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that had that opportunity.

In contrast though, the New Covenant is completely internal. The necessity to perform external sacrifices, and in maintaining particular rituals has been placed aside as being in the past, for a new and better Covenant has taken its place.
Spiritual relationship, and the opportunity for intimacy within that relationship is now available for the asking by everyone, and it is not done out of obligation anymore, but out of our desire instead. We are dearly blessed to be able to attain that which of the Old Covenant couldn’t even comprehend.

It is my belief that this choice of a heart filled desire to maintain relationship, is what now fulfills all the aspects of the old law. It is in placing our trust in Christ that He has fulfilled all things, that is in actuality what sets us free.

In John 4:23,24 where He is speaking to the Samaritan woman, He says, “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

To me this suggests that nothing regarding external obligations are a necessity, or a requirement anymore.
That we are, out of a heart filled desire to do so, to worship God both “in spirit and truth”, which are both solely internal.

Hi Gregg,
I have had many such discussions over the years about whether the old laws and commandments were “nailed to the cross” with Jesus. A few were such as the spring festivals which were fulfilled by Jesus and therefore the disciples taught their followers that these particular sabbaths were no longer to be followed. But we both know that all the apostles kept and taught the commandments and kept the sabbath. There is nothing in the New Testament that tells us that we are to abandon the commandments. All of that happened much later when the church was merged with Roman religion under emperor Justinian.
It’s strange but we all agree we should not worship idols or false God’s, nor take the Lord’s name in vain. Nor should we murder or steal etc.
But what’s the harm in going to church on Sunday rather than the real sabbath?
Because Sunday is Satan’s day of worship and God wrote in stone to “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.”
But let’s say for the sake of argument that we are no longer under the law. Then I have to ask a simple question. If we are to be saved and born again, we must believe that Christ was the son of God and that He died on the cross for our sins. Then (as also with baptism) we must earnestly confess our sins and vow to sin no more (or at least try). We also pray the Lord’s prayer where we pray: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” To trespass means to sin, of course, so my question is, if the law is void, then there can be no sin and if we are incapable of sinning why do we need to be forgiven. And why will there be a judgement day if nobody is guilty of anything and if our works are of no consequence?
It just is not logical to me, an I was a digital logic designer for years, so I’m used to reading complex schematics to find out how things work. The bible is sort of like a giant schematic in my mind, so I like to read it in a logical manner. If you were to tell me that a new circuit board is plugged into the motherboard but has no power connections, yet it is still supposed to work with the rest of the machine, I’m going to question the design.
Sorry, but pulling the plug on the ten commandments and expecting the word of God to keep working seems foolish to me. When the tribulation comes and we are searching a destroyed building looking for survivors, you’ll be the guy that says “Just pull that bare wire out from the wall. I’m sure the power is turned off…” Well, I know better than to take such a chance, so I won’t go for it. Hopefully I’ll be able to talk you out of messing with it either.
So with deep sincerity in regards to believing it is OK to ignore God’s laws, all I can say is good luck, and God bless.(Or will He?)
🙂

I couldn’t help but respond to some of the comments that you made regarding Gregg’s post.

You Wrote:
“A few were such as the spring festivals which were fulfilled by Jesus and therefore the disciples taught their followers that these particular sabbaths were no longer to be followed.”

Rebuttle:
Your claim of reducing the law of Moses to meaning “Spring festivals” is completely assumed on your part and that for the purpose of supporting your believe, as there is no where in Scripture that this is inferred. When Paul says “Sabbaths,” he means, all Sabbaths, when he says “Law,” he is referring to the entire law of Moses. Paul is talking about all of the commands and regulations related to the law of Moses.

You wrote:
“There is nothing in the New Testament that tells us that we are to abandon the commandments.”

Rebuttle:
You obviously haven’t read Romans and Galatians, because law being dead is the bulk of the conversation. But, for the sake of brevity, here is one that says it all:

“Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: ‘Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

And continuing on to the following verses:

“Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up an said, ‘The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”

Now, I want you to notice and keep in mind that, they mention the circumsision, which was a physical sign of the covenant of the law and then they mention the law of Moses, which covers the entire law, not just spring festivals, or any other made up claim. The Law of Moses is entails all of the 800 some-odd commands and regulations that made up the law of Moses. I just wanted to make this clear. Now, here is the response that Peter gave to those Pharisees who were claiming that they must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses:

“The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: ‘Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

And their ultimate answer in regards as to whether or not they should be circumcised and whether they should have to obey the Law of Moses was:

James speaking:
“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them , telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of stangled animals.”

And that’s it! So, you can see that in regards to the pharisees protest that those in Christ should be made to be circumcised and to obey the Law of Moses, it was thrown out! And this is just one account, practically the entire letter to the Galatians speaks about the law being obsolete and the reason is, because Christ came and fulfilled it perfectly on our behalf, where mankind was unable to. Does that mean that we have carte Blanche to sin? God forbid! But now we keep those basic laws that would do harm to others by following Christ. If we are following Christ, that is trying to walk as he walked, then we will not be seeking to to those things written in the law, but not by following after the written code, but by being led by the Spriit of Christ. Does that mean that we are without sin, no! For, if any man says he has no sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. So, what happens when we fail? We go to the Father in the name of his Son who shed his blood for us and ask for forgiveness and Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father as our High Priest and is speakng on our behalf.

We are all “Works in Progress.” Though we are not perfect, God sees us as perfect, because is looking at us through the eyeglasses of Christ. Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and paid the wages of sin on our behalf by making atonemnet with his blood. It is by recognizing his shed blood alone, without the works of the law, for the forgiveness our sins and our faith in that alone is the only thing that he is going to accept. If you have an attitude that says, “I must do this or that also in order to obtain or maintain salvaton and is my ticket into the kingdom of God, you will not gain access. In fact, Jesus gave an example of those who will have that exact attitude by saying:

“But Lord, Lord, didn’t we
(fill in the blanks for whatever you are trying to do to earn your way in.)

Paul gave a good illustration from marriage regarding the law when he said (and I’m paraphrasing): A woman is obligated to the covenant of marriage to her husband as long as he lives, but when he dies, the wife is released from that covenant of marriage and she is no longer held accountable to the rules and regulations of that marriage. So also, since our husband, the law, has died, we believers as the wife, are no longer obligated to that marriage. Where there is no law, there is no transgression. Likewise, where there is law, there is trangression and wrath. For the law only makes us conscious of our sins and cannot save anyone. We are free from our oblgation of the rules and regulations of the law. If you attempt to claim any responsibility for your salvation, such as by saying, “But Lord, Lord, didn’t I keep your Sabbath on Saturday? Jesus resonse will be, “Depart from you evil doer! I never knew you.” Your salvation must be by the shed blood of Christ alone. Neither the Sabbath day, nor any Jewish holy day, nor any feast, nor abstaing from certain foods or anything at all that requirse works, which is attempting to earn your way in, anyone who has this Spirit will not enter in by any means.

Paul said it well:

“Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be cirucmcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is oblicated to obey the whole law.”

Whoever is trying to obtain salvation by observing the law is a son of the slave woman Hagar and will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son. Those who belong to the free woman “Sarah” are saved as a result from a promise to Abraham and his decendants, those being everyone who is having the same faith that Abraham did. Abraham was credited with righteousness specifically because he believed God and not by performing charity or by observing the Sabbath, or feasts, or holy days or anything at all except for having faith. Against all odds, being a 100 years old, God told Abraham that he would give him a son and Abraham, regardless of his and Sara’s age, settled it in his heart and believed that God was able to do what he had promised and that alone is how Abraham was credited with righteousness.

The only commands that we have today are to believe in God’s Son whom he sent and to love one another. For those who practice this, there is no law!

One last note:

You wrote:
“Hopefully I’ll be able to talk you out of messing with it either.
So with deep sincerity in regards to believing it is OK to ignore God’s laws, all I can say is good luck, and God bless.”

Rebuttle:
Those who are truly in Christ do not ignore God’s laws, but through Christ we fulfill them. God forbid that I should proclaim anything else for my salvation except the shed blood of my Lord Jesus. For the credit for our salvation belongs to him and him alone.

Don
JUST TO add a bit more, what matters to God is not that we obey the law, But WHY we obey. This is the sanctifying work of the Holy spirit, not our own work.
If the spirit leads someone to obey the sabbath, then we should not condemn them for doing so, But they also must not condemn others that have not been led by the Spirit to do this. That is why I Argued that this is not the mark of the beast, for not all people in their walk with the Lord will have been led by the spirit to that point.
Our ultimate goal is to become a “New creation in Christ”, where there was no need for a Law written in stone only the words of God in communion with us.
I personally have not yet been led by the Spirit to observe the seventh day sabbath, but that does not mean I will not someday. James has been led to that, and only God can know the motives in his heart for that. It is also not his duty to condemn others for not practicing the 7th day sabbath.
There are certain things in our faith that we cannot compromise on. The trinity, the Divine nature of Jesus, Salvation by faith alone, our sinfullness, etc. then there are those things which we will have differences on. We must, for love’s sake, not lead another to stumble, so long as they do not compromise on the basics of the faith. Then it is our job to correct.
My experiences in life has been, that those who lived a hard sinful life before their conversion, tend to turn toward God by becoming more legalistic in faith, while those brought up in the church during conversion, are Knocked down off their Podium of legalism. What matters to got is a humble spirit. For somepeople, zeal for abiding in the law is how they stay humble, for others, as with Paul, we must have a “thorn in our side” to keep us humble.

Here is the problem with your response. The Holy Spirit is not going to lead a true believer to do what is contrary to the Word of God. The Scripture says that, no one will be justified by observing the law. The definition of “justified” in the Greek, is to be made right or to be made righteous. Since no one will be made righteous by observing the law, the Holy Spirit will never lead anyone to observe the Sabbath or any other part of the law for the purpose of obtaining eternal life. To try to obtain the kingdom of God through observing the law is contrary to the grace of God which comes through the shed blood of Christ and therefore, the Holy Spirit would never lead any believer in the direction of the law.

Furthermore, I condemn no one, the word of God does. I am only proclaiming what his word says, which many seem to circumvent and ignore. When those Judiazers were trying to turn the church in Galatia back to those miserable principals of the law, Paul told them flat out, that if they reverted back to the law, then Christ would be of no value to them. He didn’t say, “Now we should not bother them about this, for the Holy Spirit may be leading them to do this.” As I said, the Holy Spirit will never lead a believer to do what is contrary to the word of God. We are also to contend for the truth of God’s word and that is what I am doing.

We are saved by grace through faith and this not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, so that no one can boast. His grace is unmeritted favor, which means, you don’t deserve it, but you’ve got it. He did the saving and there is nothing we can do to earn it. And if you try to earn it, you do disgrace him who paid the penalty. Now just to be clear, if a person wants to observe the Sabbath or a feast because of his heritage, I see no problem with this. But, if they observe these things as a must for salvation, then it is a problem, because now you are trusting in your own works for salvation. Observing the law for salvation will keep you out of the kingdom of God.

If people are teaching and living contrary to the word of God, then we who know the truth should proclaim the truth. And because we proclaim the truth, it does not mean that we are not humble. We cannot bend when it comes to the word of God, as people are bending all the time. So-called christians even bending to and embracing sexualal immorality, justifying it saying, “I’m a christian too and God doesn’t have a problem with me continuing in it.”

I will say it again, if anyone is trusting in their own works and not looking solely at Christ’s finished work on the cross, according to the word of God, that person will not enter into the kingdom of God.

If you pour new wine into an old wine skin, the new wine will burst the old wine skin and both will be ruined.

Hey Bud, I just responded to what it was that I believed that you were inferring to. Obviously we are experiencing technical difficulties and have a communication breakdown. 🙂
My knee jerk reaction is probably caused by a torn cartilage that has a mind of it’s own until it can be repaired with surgery. Until that happens, I apologize if it acts up once and awhile.

First of all, I think that where problems sometimes arise, is that since “the writer” has a top of mind awareness as to what it is that they are trying to convey, an assumption automatically takes place that what they had written will also be totally understood by the recipient.
I think we all, (including myself), have been guilty of doing that at one time or another.

Having now been provided with more specificity regarding what it is that you were trying to express, I think that I now have a better understanding of what that was.

Just to confirm that I now understand, in your question where you say in your above post, dated March 16th. @ 9:18 pm. “Just wanted to leave this question with you; If the Torah was done away with, where are the witnesses to this most major of events? Every one quotes Paul, but really no one else.” are you then saying that we don’t appear to have any substantiating evidence from any other of the apostles other than Paul?

If that indeed was the question that you were asking me, then I will try to answer it for you here.
Unfortunately however, I won’t be able to provide you with any supportive Biblical scripture, for it simply doesn’t exist.
All I can really do, is add further to what it is that Seppo has already stated above within his response.
I think that all I can do is to suggest that you really look at the full body of all that Paul has said.
Since you say that, ” Paul is one of the most learned and respected of the Apostles and I agree 100% with that.
I never even hinted at doing away with his writings and teachings. I fully embrace them.” Then I would wonder why it is that you happen to question what it is that he says about this particular topic? If in embracing everything else that he says, knowing in your heart through the Spirit, that he speaks the truth by the Spirit and not of himself, why would you question this aspect, and simply not accept it in faith?

In addressing some of your other comments;

I personally don’t believe that the “church” has misunderstood this message. I believe that what Paul expresses regarding the Torah is quite clear. I do agree with you however, that one of the worst decisions that the early church ever made, was the decision to distance itself from the Jewish believers. The knowledge that was lost by that decision can never be recovered, and is more than likely the cause of much of the discord that we all experience today. However again, that fact does not take away from the “point” of the message regarding what Paul had said about the Torah.

The Sabbath is still the Sabbath.

I believe the reason that Paul circumcised Timothy (ouch) was not because of a necessity to fulfill the Torah, but rather because in Timothy being circumcised, it would allow for both Paul, and Timothy to have more credibility within the Jewish community of the region. That appears to be quite clear by what is written in Acts 16:3.
The fact that it was decreed by the Jerusalem Council beforehand, that physical circumcision was not a necessity, further proves that this act that was performed on Timothy, was a particular exception, required for a particular occasion.

I would also agree that we should all attempt to possess a certain understanding of our roots as well. Since we are a grafted branch into those roots. (And I would hope that in my initial response to you of March 10 th. @ 3:48, demonstrates that I also attempt to possess (though perhaps rudimentary), a certain knowledge regarding the Jewish perspective as well.) Yet as I had stated in that above post, I truly believe with all my heart that prophetically speaking, the Mishkan was a foreshadowing, and represented the redemptive plan of God, that “culminated” in the revelation of Yeshua the Messiah as being the appointed Lamb of God. (ie; seh ha-Elohim.)
I believe totally, that it all has to do with Yeshua now. Nothing is required to add to, or maintain that finished work other than to abide with Him in relationship.

Don
You put alot on the table to respond to, I only have time to comment on a few.
The day of the lLord described in the OT refers to the messiahs second coming in regards to Israel, as a fulfillment of covenents. while the NT describes the day of the Lord as the Rapture of the Church. The OT describes it as a day of Judgement, tempests, lightning and hailstones, etc. This is repeated in revalation as a clue to where the story goes back in time. So the seals will occur first, but this does not mean you have to have the seventh seal before the first trumpet can sound.
As for chapter 12, Was satan not defeated on the cross? Note that we have a transition at the end of chapter 11:19 describing the return of God’s prescence to the temple (ark of his covenent). I listed some passages above that referred to the tempest describing the Lords return as a tempest etc from the OT as well. read some of the other OT prophets and you will see this as well.

This backjumping in literature is quite a common practice. Let’s say, for example purposes only, God revealed to John the seals all seven of them. he went and wrote it down, then God showed him seven trumpets, and he wrote it down, The same with the vials. does this mean the one must be complete, for the other to take place? No, they are three distinct visions of the end times. It is now the readers job to be led by the spirit, and commen sense to figure out where they are in relation to one another. I ask you, try to read prophecy in this way, and you will see it come to life, It will not make you go to hell if you do it. Man however is often set in his ways (pride) that he cannot explore other ways of thinking. Isn’t that what describes human history. Gallileo was burned at stake for going against church Dogma.

As for the psalm 50 quotes. I Chron. 25:1-2 says Asaph, The author of that psalm, “…Who prophecied under the direction of the king (David).” 12 psalms are accredited to him, 50,73-83. We know that psalms were quoted at numerous times in prophecy, Jesus does this, Acts does, Paul does, Hebrews Does. So clearly we can see that there is a prophetic element to the Psalms. Read psalm 82 and tell me what war was Asaph referring to tha toccured before David’s time? Psalm 50:6 says “the heavens declare his righteousness for God himself is Judge.” So when is it that God himself will Judge those who “made a covenent with (him) by sacrifice.”? Verse 3 also talks of his return as a devouring fire, and a mighty tempest. Just read the psalm in light of being a jewish person at the time of David. They were required by law to offer sacrifice to the Lord, then read verse 8-10, 13-15. When is it then that our offering of thanksgiving is sufficient.

I invite you to Read these chapters, praying that the Holy Spirit will lead you, not your “own understanding”, You too then will see how chapter 50 refers to the mark of the beast.

I have also posted some links on “how does Gog and Magog Relate, That will explain some of these things better.

Don
I hope you find this. I think we are largely in agreement with each other. Couple of points though: the holy spirit does not lead us to break the law. I am not sure where you get that I say our works are required for salvation. I don’t think? I ever said this. The point I was merely trying to make is that some people are led by the Spirit to practice their faith in different ways. I, For example, as a Baptist believe in baptism by immersion, and will defend this till the end. That does not mean that i believe baptism is required for salvation because it is a work. Does it have role in our walk with Christ, yes.
The point i am making with regard to James is that he believes keeping the sabbath or not keeping it will be mark of the beast. I do not support this notion at all, and have held him to task on this. This does not mean I condemn him for observing it on saturday, Nor is this salvation dependent. He defends it though, as I would defend baptism by immersion. He has been led to observe this one part of the law. Simply put, I am merely trying to point out what is on the inside (motives,heart) is what matters. For example, I have been witness to pastors that look down on the members that do not go to church every week, yet they themselves are guilty of exulting themselves above the members(pride). Justification is by faith alone through grace alone, my point is that Sanctification is also by grace alone, It is not our work, it is God’s work in us through the Holy spirit.

If james agrees with these principles, which i think he does, if he is led to observe the seventh day as sabbath, then so be it. When he steps over the line when he says it is a requirement of salvation. Up to that point he can argue his point on that all he wants. I know there are equally as compelling arguements for the first day being the sabbath.

What many people miss, is that when one is justified, and they ,Let’s say, have aproblem with alcohol, when they are freed from this bond through Christ, this burden gets lifted from them, which tends to give them a zeal for being against any alcohol which may seem legalistic (works driven). Others, however may have no problem with alcohol, and drinking alcohol is not prohibited by law (drunkeness is), For this Christian to drink in front of that former alcoholic is not a responsible action on his part, for he is putting a stmbling block in front of the former alcoholic. Thus it is about loving one another that we do not condemn one another, nor put a stumbling block in their path.

Believing in the trinity and divinity of Jesus is not something Christians can compromise on. This is a belief and not a work, and is essential part of the redemption. If Jesus was not God, then there is no ability to have justification. I am pretty sure both you and James believe in this.

First let me say that, I am glad that you got out of that narrow column that we were writing in, as it is too small to write in. I apologise if I misunderstood you, but it seemed as though you were supporting James belief regarding our being under the law. I understand what you are saying and my response was only to contend for the truth. My point was that, the Holy Spirit would not lead anyone to do what is contrary to the word of God and living under the law, that is, the need to perform it for the sake of salvation, as this is in opposition to God’s free gift of grace through the shed blood of Christ. God went through great lengths through Paul to make it know that the covenant in Christ’s blood made the previous covenant of the law obsolete. There is no salvation by observing the law. In fact, the promise of salvation by grace was introduced to Abraham 430 years before the law came into affect and the law was put into place until the seed of Abraham would arrive and usher in the orginal covenent, which is by grace through faith. As Scripture says, the law was put into place because of trespasses until Christ would come.

The other problem, which is related to their desire to be under the law that is going on, are those who are slandering Paul, saying that he was a false apostle and a liar; yet, God’s word speaks against those who do so, calling them ignorant and unstable people and they do this to their own destruction. If someone has a different interpretation of say, when the resurrectin and catching away takes place or something of that nature, I don’t see this as eternal life threatening, but when someone is proclaiming and teaching that our salvation is dependant upon observing any part of the law, then I have problem with that. There is way too much information, mainly in the letters to the Romans and Galatians telling readers that, no one will be justified by observing the law, to believe anything else. It seems like these people do everything that they can to circumvent the truth, kind of like a defense lawyer tryiing to get rid of all the evidence, except in this case, they try to change the meaning of what is being said, siting spring festivals and such instead of recognizing that when Paul says “Law” he is speaking of the entire law of Moses, all of it!

In short, anyone who is doing anything because they believe that it must be done to obtain or maintain salvation are attempting to earn it and they are not trusting in the Lord’s sacrifice as sufficient. He doesn’t need any help and we could do it no better. In fact, we fail at it. I wish I could get James and anyone else who is trusting in works to understand this, because the very thing that they are trusting in for salvation is the very thing that will keep them from obtaining it. If you have to earn it, then it is no longer a free gift. For the person who works for his wages, they are given as an obligation, but for the person who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked without works, that person is credited with righteousness.

In any case, I am relieved that you understand that we are not under the law, for the law kills. I have question that get right to the core of the issua and that is: If a person was to stand before the Lord and the Lord asked him, “For what reason should I let you enter the kingdom of God?” and the persons answer was anything but, “By your shed blood Lord,” then they would not enter in, because any other answer would infer personal efforts by works.

Don
This is the simplicity of the Gospel and i couldn’t have said it better myself. Any body that adds or subtracts from this Gospel is doing so at detriment to themselves.

After we become saved, there is our walk in Jesus we must contend with. I believe this is called progressive sanctification by theologians. Each of us is called to take this walk in a certain way, the goal being that we reach astate of communion with God, as Paul also calls it, A “new creation” in Christ. We choose to take this “walk” because this is the main benefit here on earth of our salvation. The only “sacrifices” we should be making at this time are those of thanksgiving, these are not a work, but rather an acknowledgement and appreciation for what Jesus has done through his blood and grace. It is the process by which we submit more and more of ourlives to the will of God. This is what the Epistle of James was talking about when he said Faith without works is dead. In other words salvation is not just a one time act and then we go back to our lives as usual, but rather it is a walk with God. This statement puts no condition on salvation, but rather leads us to Closer to God.

We are dead to the law, But those that are not saved are still under the yoke it places on them, and it condemns them. For those that are saved, the law is merely a mirror that shows where we are in our walk with God. Obviously if we are lying, cheating and stealing in our workplace, we need reassess where we are in our walk with God.

Yes Don, we are saved by grace through faith and this is Salvation and it is covered in Leviticus 23 under Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits and through baptism which is also a part of the Salvation process. And it stops here. This is called Sanctification or Jusitifcation. I forget which one.

However we are Justified by our works and it is found under Pentecost in Leviticus 23. So if Sabbath keeping is a part of Justification then I am justified but if it a part of Sanctification which it is not then I am not sanctified I think I lost me on that one.

The point I am making is that one is justification and the other one is Sanctification.

The Second Coming in the year of Jubilee at the end of the jubilee year is Glorification.

I am going to have to go back and study my Levitical 23 study on the Redemptive Story of Jesus Christ.Jardalkal@aol.com John Ashcraft. It is roughly 30 pages.

Good to see that you are back Don. Hope all of you are doing well. If James doesn’t mind, just thought I would weigh in on your conversation. Specifically what Don replied to James.

James wrote;
“There is nothing in the New Testament that tells us that we are to abandon the commandments.”

Don’s Rebuttle;
“You obviously haven’t read Romans & Galations, because law being dead is the bulk of the conversation. But for the sake of brevity, here is one that says it all.”

The verses that you referenced to rebut James’ comments were Acts 15:1-11. Since this specific event “says it all”, maybe we can put some things to rest.

Acts 15
1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

At a quick glance, looks like you have a pretty strong position, Don. But let’s tear into it and see what is really being said here. Since the time that Moshe had received the Torah from Yah, it (the Torah) stood alone as Israel’s instructions for obedience to the Father. But over time, the ruling religious class of Scribes and Pharisees started doing the unthinkable. They started adding to the words of Yah and the Torah, which came to be known as the oral law. The Pharisees gave the Oral laws that they and the Scribes penned, the same weight as the written law that Moses received from Yah. They then required Israel to observe both equally without any distinction between the two. This is the yoke referred to in verse 10, the oral law.
Below are the words of Yahshua speaking to some of the religious ruling class;

Luke 11:46 (King James Version)
46And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Yahshua was not speaking of the original written Torah given to Moshe. You will never find Yahshua criticizing the Torah. In fact, just the opposite ( In the gospel of John, John declares that Yahshua is the Word and the Word is Yahshua. They are One. The only scripture at that time was the Torah, the Prophets, and the Psalms). The religious leaders had made the law so grievous that people lived in fear of it. It is said that keeping the Sabbath was so restrictive, given the oral law, the people were almost afraid to get out of bed, fearing they might break one of the laws that had been added on. Remember where it was said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It was a blessing for man not a burden. If you will note in the verse above, Yahshua says, YOU lade men with burdens, not Yah. This verse says the same thing as Acts 15:10 when Peter says why do YOU tempt God. This is all talking about the added requirements originated by the religious leaders, not the written Torah of Moshe.

If you will notice in Acts 15:5, it is a certain sect of the Pharisees that was requiring them to be circumcised and obey the law. I have touched on this before with you, but you evidently didn’t consider it. New Gentile converts were not required to be circumcised until they had a level of maturity in the Faith. The religious leaders had a hard time with that and wanted it done immediately.

Your reference to what James (the Apostle) said about abstaining from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, and from the meat of strangled animals, were initial restrictions until the New Gentile converts were grounded in the Faith. They took circumcision very seriously. Even in Israel, children were not circumcised at birth, but rather at the age of 12. They had to have a certain level of understanding into what they were doing. It was not meant to be just an automatic requirement. Man made it that way. Do you see the support from both the physical and the spiritual? Newly born babies weren’t circumcised until they had reached some level of maturity. The same with those having experienced the New Birth spiritually. Not until they had a certain level of maturity.

It is a given that salvation comes by the grace of Yah, through faith in Yahshua. Gregg, you have said previously that God does not need these things called the law (not an exact quote). You are right, we do. Yah gave them to us to help in our passage through this world. The Word says that HaSatan is as a roaring lion seeking who he can devour. The Word also says that when Yah speaks, it is in a still small voice. When we throw off the fence (Torah), that Yah has put around us, we become vulnerable to the attacks of the evil one. We are spiritual beings who live in a house of flesh. There are very few who discern things in the Spirit rather than the flesh. That which is outward is overpowering to most, which is why the church is in the shape it is today. They see the lion all around them, but can’t hear the voice of Yah. Salvation is a free gift, but the Torah works in conjunction with that. If you don’t agree with that, that is okay. But if I were you I would dig a little deeper to find the truth for yourself. But I also realize, that even if the truth smacked most Christians squarely between the eyes, the change required would keep them from making any adjustments. Gregg, this is what I meant by misunderstandings. We don’t understand the customs of the days we read about in the scriptures. We read scripture based on our limited understanding and reach wrong conclusions. That coupled with poor translations and we have quite a mess. All of you are making huge decisions based on limited knowledge. It shows by the verses you choose to prove your points.

One last thing about the scripture you referred to in Matthew 7:22-23;

Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Look at the last word in these verses. Iniquity is defined as lawlessness= without law=without Torah. This is an example of people doing their own thing and disregarding the things of Yah. It kind of describes a large part of the Christian church, don’t you think?

I don’t expect anyone to change their mind based on anything I have said. That will only come by revelation through Ruach HaKodesh.

to all
” on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread (communion), Paul talked with them, intending to depart on th next Day.” Acts 20:7

“One person esteems one day as better than another, While another esteems all days alike. EACH ONE should be fully convinced in his own mind.
The one who observes THE DAY (Sabbath), observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, SINCE HE GIVES THANKS TO GOD, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and GIVES THANKS TO GOD.” Romans 14:5-6

Romans 14:12 “So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.”

“therefore let no one pass judgement on you In questions of food and drink, or with regard to festivals, or a newmoon, or a sabbath.” Col 2:16

” If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, Why, asif you were still alive in the world do you submit to regulations…23These have indeed an appearence of wisdom in promoting self made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgences of the flesh.” Col 2:20,23

Just thought I would throw these verses out there, for those of you that choose to worship on the First day.

Al
Two points I would like to reiterate, The Law is mirror to those who are saved, but not a yoke. What God looks at is the heart. that was his Problem with the Jewish people, their motives were wrong in obeying the Law.
I said with james once that what about a slave who is forced to work on saturday, will he be guilty of breaking the law, or accepting the mark of the beast?
I’m not sure where you stand on these debates, but Christ came to “Fulfill the Law”. What does this mean to you?

Dru, you need to look at Col 2:16 in a Jewish mindset. If you still want to be a hypocrite that is your business but you are of the Laidocian Church which Colissians 2:1 talks about.

Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Dru I ask what Matthew 5:17-19 means to you.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
See, to me you are being the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

You worship 17 but you leave out and dismiss 18 therefore you are to be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Foundational statements for “Rightly Dividing”
1. God never changes! He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
2. God’s Word is true!
3. God’s Word NEVER contradicts itself! If WE think it does, WE do not understand it in the correct light!
4. God Cannot Lie!
5. Satan is a liar and the father of all lies.
6. Satan’s ultimate goal is to pervert God’s Will and turn his people from Him.

We all agree on these fundamental and foundational statements.

Now let’s look at the teachings of Jesus concerning the law.

Jesus says: Mat_5:17-19 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

God never changes.
Jesus affirms the law, torah, of the Old Testament!
God’s Word is true!
This does not go against the only scripture available, the Old Testament
God’s Word NEVER contradicts itself!
If Jesus taught against the law it would go against Deu_18:14-20. If it was understood that Jesus was saying that we don’t have to follow the law, then those that heard it were commanded to kill him.
Deu_18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
God Cannot Lie!
If Jesus taught against the law it would either make “the Law” a lie, or Jesus a liar.
Satan is a liar and the father of all lies.
To use the word “fulfill” to say that we are not to follow the law because Jesus fulfilled it. Not only is this a lie, it doesn’t even make sense. Matt_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Also to fulfill refers to the first and second coming and to the end of the Millennium.
Satan’s ultimate goal is to pervert God’s Will and turn his people from Him.
If Jesus had done away with “the Law” and contradicted Deu_18:14-20, Satan would have the Ultimate perversion of the will of God!

Point 2: “Even though Jesus ‘Came not to destroy the Law’ – by fulfilling it, he did away with the need to follow it.”
“Jesus quoted a Hebrew idiom when He said He came not to destroy the Law or the prophets. He was using a familiar phrase easily understood during Biblical times. Jesus had been accused of misinterpreting the Torah, yet He said that He was actually rightly and correctly teaching it. Traditional Jewish writings support this idiom, “Should all the nations of the world unite to uproot one word of the Law, they would be unable to do it,” Leviticus Rabbah 19:2. To understand the meaning of this verse, everything hinges on the meaning of the words “destroy” and “fulfill” in verse 17. What does Jesus mean by “destroy the Law” and “fulfill the Law”? “Destroy” and “fulfill” are technical terms used in rabbinic argumentation. When a sage felt that a colleague had misinterpreted a passage of Scripture, he would say, “You are destroying the Law!” Needless to say, in most cases, his colleagues strongly disagreed. What was “destroying the Law” for one sage was “fulfilling the Law” (correctly interpreting Scripture) for another,” wrote Bivin and Blizzard in their book Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus (Yahshua).

Does this explanation of this statement fit within the context? Yes, extremely well. Let’s look at the next few verses:
Mat_5:21 KJV Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Mat_5:27-28 KJV Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Each one of these examples is a correct interpretation of the Old Testament Law – the Torah. He was giving Full interpretation of the Scriptures. He is teaching intent or deeper meaning of the Law not the letter of the Law.

Let’s look at what Paul says in: Rom_10:1-5 KJV Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

God never changes.
This appears that Paul says that Christ does away with the law.
God’s Word is true!
How can this be true when Mat_5:17-19 appears to say the opposite?
God’s Word NEVER contradicts itself!
This appears to contradict the teachings of Jesus himself, in Mat_5:17-19
God Cannot Lie!
If all scripture is inspired of God it appears that someone is lying.

What will help us to resolve these seemingly insurmountable roadblocks?
Context
Let’s look earlier in Paul’s letter to the Romans:
Rom_2:13 KJV For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom_3:20 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom_3:31 KJV Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom_7:7 KJV What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Lets also look at Paul’s background:
Act_22:3 KJV I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Act_23:6 KJV But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Gamaliel bears the title “Rabban”, a rabbinic title given to the Nasi (head) of the Sanhedrin.

Many believe that under Gamaliel’s teaching that Paul was being groomed to be the next head of the Sanhedrin. Gamaliel’s students would know the Law (the first five books of the Old Testament) frontwards and backwards and have the entire Old Testament memorized.

So, Paul had the best teacher, the best upbringing, and was extremely knowledgeable regarding matters of the law and anything in the entire Old Testament.

Now let’s look at the textural contest. Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The word that is the hinge point of this verse is “end”
Strong’s – end G5056 τέλος telos tel’-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): – + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Let’s also look at one way that the word τέλος was translated from Hebrew in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament by 70 Hebrew scholars approximately 300 BC.)

We are faced with two diametrically opposed definitions of the word “τέλος”. One is: to limit, conclusion, and termination, the other is: to stretch, continuance, and constant. When we are “rightly dividing the word of truth” from this passage which definition agrees with our foundational statements?

God never changes.
To limit, conclusion, and termination. This must be rejected because it makes the law of no effect
To stretch, continuance, and constant. This is consistent with the Old Testament teaching on the law
God’s Word is true!
To limit, conclusion, and termination. . This would make the Old Testament be a lie
To stretch, continuance, and constant. This is consistent with the Old Testament teaching on the law and it makes the passage make better sense given the context
God’s Word NEVER contradicts itself!
To limit, conclusion, and termination. This contradicts the earlier passages written by Paul in Romans and the entire Old Testament teaching on the Law
To stretch, continuance, and constant. No contradiction at all.
God Cannot Lie!
To limit, conclusion, and termination. Jesus, Paul, and all the other inspired writers of scriptures would have lied for this use to be true.
To stretch, continuance, and constant. completely consistent with other teachings given the full context.
Satan is a liar and the father of all lies.
To limit, conclusion, and termination. This plants the seed that we don’t need to follow the instructions of God
To stretch, continuance, and constant. This is the definition that Satan DOES NOT want to be recognized
Satan’s ultimate goal is to pervert God’s Will and turn his people from Him.
To limit, conclusion, and termination. This definition that has led to blasphemous doctrine that has robbed God’s people from his blessings.
To stretch, continuance, and constant. What better way for Satan to pervert the scriptures to mean the opposite of what was intended.

I hope that you have seen that Satan has had a hand in keeping God’s people from knowing his truth. But you will say that this goes against everything that we have always been taught. Let me leave you with two quotes:

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
Joseph Goebbels, leader of the Nazi Party’s propaganda unit.

Jer_16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Man, I have to disagree with you here. I think that you are really reaching by saying that all they were referring to during the Jerusalem Council was the Torah she’bal peh, (Oral Torah, or Talmud) and not also to what it is that Moses commited to writing in the Torah scroll, or Torah shebikhtav.
I think that 2 Corinthians 3:3 pretty well dismisses that theory. “Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of “stone”, but in fleshy tables of the heart.”
(Quotations mine) The Talmud was never written in, or on stone.

Actually, the Talmud has always been understood within Rabbinical Judaism to be given to Moses at the same time that the tablets of stone were given at Mount Sinai. Therefore they would go hand and hand together and not be considered to be separate theological ideologies. I could expound on this further for you, however my point is, if you are using the Talmud to substantiate your position, you are applying it within your argument incorrectly. For if one has to go, then the other has to go with it.

Where you go into speaking as Christ being the word, I think that you are simply taking a literal point of view and associating the “word” as being solely limited to that of the Torah. Where as in Christ being the “word”, it can also represent the limitless Right Hand of God that creates all things as the very word of the Father. John 1:1-3 would seem to substantiate my point.

Where you say, ” If you will notice in Acts 15:5, it is a certain sect of the Pharisees that was requiring them to be circumcised and obey the law. I have touched on this before with you, but you evidently didn’t consider it. New Gentile converts were not required to be circumcised until they had a level of maturity in the Faith. The religious leaders had a hard time with that and wanted it done immediately.”
Could you please point out to me as to where it states anywhere within scripture, that circumcision was/is required when a Christian attains a certain level of spiritual maturity?

Where you say, ” They took circumcision very seriously. Even in Israel, children were not circumcised at birth, but rather at the age of 12.” What the heck are you talking about here? Have you never read Leviticus 12: 3?
“And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.” That doesn’t sound like they waited till they were 12 years old to me.

Where you say,” Gregg, you have said previously that God does not need these things called the law (not an exact quote). You are right, we do.” Sorry Al, but I believe that the law is just as ineffective for me as it was for the original individuals that were burdened by it. I place all of my trust and faith in the finished work of Yeshua, and I’ll take the convictions of the Holy Spirit’s guidance in my circumcised heart, over the law any day.

Thanks for pointing out the error I made on the circumcision analogy. I was thinking of the coming of age for children. Unwittingly put the two together. Sorry about that.

Your reference to 2 Corinthians 3:3 is taken from
Jeremiah 31:33 (King James Version) (though there are others)

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This doesn’t speak to the nullification of Torah, written or oral, and neither does the verse you mentioned in Corinthians. It does speak to Yah writting the Torah in our hearts, through the blood sacrifice of Yahshua.

There would be no problem with the Oral Law if the Rabbi’s had not perverted it and elevated it above the written Torah. The written Torah had been drastically altered by the Rabbi’s. Sounds a lot like the Catholic Church. You know, about being infalliabe and that they were the only ones who could interpret scripture. With all that said, there was much of the Oral Law that was in harmony with the written Torah. Do you think Yahshua would have had the intense confrontations with the Rabbi’s, if they had been following the written Torah? NO!!! There would have been no need for that. So because the Oral and the written are theologicaly the same, the Rabbi’s perverting of parts of the Oral law, requires that the written Torah be throw out also? Regardless of what the Rabbi’s say about this, that never happened. Yah is in the business of cleansing that which is His. He doesn’t just toss something out because man handled it with contempt.

As far as circumcision being performed after a certain period of time; new converts in the time of the Apoostles were discipled. They didn’t just say the sinners prayer and go about their business. They were taught and warned about the cost of their profession of faith in the Messiah. They were watched over and taught by those of the faith. The reason, as I understand it, was to make sure they were serious about the committment they were making and not just emotionally involved. The circumcision took place at some point after. The scriptures do not detail all the customs of the day. That is my understanding of how all of this worked to a greater or lesser degree.

I see us as brothers in the Messiah, while having very fundamental differences. I sense tha you see me as a poor soul bound up in religious works, missing the whole point of Yahshua’s gift of salvation. Putting myself under the law and basically dishonoring the price the Master paid for my salvation. But I will tell you, it is not that. I know who I am now in the Messiah, where I am going, and what I am to be doing while on the way. Salvation through the blood of Yahshua and the Torah are one. If you try and separate the two, you end up with one or the other, bascially incomplete, and our vision is impaired. The Torah and Yahshua do not conflict with each other, but rather together they become complete in our lives. Dru, if you are reading this, that is what the word FULFILL means. To complete something, to make it whole and full. There is no hint of destruction or nullification of anything. All that I can tell you, is that when Elijah comes, he will prepare the way and make the path straight for Messiah. I sometimes wonder if the chruch will even know who the 144,ooo are when they come. There message will not be what the church is expecting!! I am sure this will get a very unfavorable reponse, but that is okay.

Hello again Al
A couple of points I would like to make.
You quote Jeremiah above. “I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts”
This is what I believe is the fulfillment of the law. As I believe we are on the same page on.

This is part of the sanctifying work of God which he does through grace in us, not through our own effort (We can’t take credit for it). Sounds to me like this is the part you disagree with me on?
The Pharisees in the New Testament were Good at “apearing” to abide by the Law. But Jesus took them to task on this in Matthew chapter 23. I will not write it down here, but will highlight some verses:

2. “The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat 3. so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do. for they preach, but do not practice.”

You might say that these two verses support your position that the pharisees were breaking the law, which to a degree is true. But if you read a little farther, The sin they were guilty of breaking was the original sin of Adam.

6.” And they love their place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the Synagogues 7. and greetings in the marketplaces and being called Rabbi by others. 8.But you (Future Christians in the crowd) are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9. and call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father who is in Heaven.” (this is a reference to the restored relationship with God they will have through the Blood of Jesus taking away the sin Of Adam) He then Concludes, 12. “whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

Then he goes into the seven woes to the pharisees. 13. But woe to you, scribes and pharisees, Hypocrites! For you shut the Kingdom of heaven in People’s faces. For you neither enter yourself nor allow those who would enter go in.” They make it impossible for people to get in by the intense burden of the Law. (all Law)
In verse 23, Jesus then explains what he means. “(you) Neglect the weightier matters of the Law: Justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done without neglecting the others. (Covenent and dietary laws)”

Question for you Al, where do justice, mercy and faithfullness fit into the Law of Moses? The Pharisees were doing what was written in the law, but not with the right intentions (heart). When Man abides by the law of his own accord (work), He is saying “I am in control of my life and do not need God”. When man is living by the law, through the grace and work of God in their lives, It is counted as righteousness towards them. In other words, the work of God through the spirit is counted as OUR righteousness. This truly is grace at work in our lives. In our church as a child we used to have a greeting that we would say to each other. “please be patient, God isn’t finished with us yet” Forcing the law on people before God has done His work in us is akin to “shutting the Kingdom of heaven.” You are guilty then of the original sin of Adam when you look down on those who choose to let God write the law in their hearts. If you are guilty of the Original sin of Adam, then you have not been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. You cannot show Justice toward someone if you have not been shown Justice by God, Nor can you know what real Mercy is if God has not been merciful in your life, and until you live by faith in the ability of Jesus blood to impute all of your sins, you will not know of his faithfulness and Love.

So, here’s the bottom line Al that will get through all the circumventing of God’s word. If you stand before Christ and he was to ask you the reason why you should be allowed into the kingdom of God, what would your answer be? The only answer should be “Because Lord, you shed your blood for me.” Anything added on to that in order to take credit for salvation and you’re not getting in! In other words,if you start rattling off the fact that you kept his Sabbath on Saturday, kept the feasts, abstained from certain foods, fed and clothed the poor or claim any other work for obtaining salvation, that person will not enter the kingdom of God. The only answer should be, the shed blood of Christ. Christ met the righteous requirments of the law fulfilling them perfectly and then God nailed the covenant of the law to the cross, which was our school-master until Christ would come, as these were a shadow of Jesus who was to come.

Again I ask, was Abraham credited with righteousness because he obeyed that law or by faith? It was by faith alone that he was credited with righteousness, without works. For he was credited with righteousness because he settled it in his heart that God was able to do what he promised.

Christ fulfilled the requirments of the law and we follow Christ. The law has died to as and for those who are not under the law, there is no transgression. By nailing the law to the cross, Christ disarmed the powers of darkness. We trust in God who justifies the wicked through the shed blood of Christ alone without works.

Since you do not have the law, then you now have lawlessness, therefore you can keep on sinning and do all your abominations. So now you hate God to His face. So now you break 1050 laws daily because you have grace.

That goes against scripture 100% and the lake of fire and brimstone are at the door to devour you. You Christian do not understand the Bible so you are totally lost.

Mattityahu (Matthew 5:17-19)
17. Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

|3543| Do think |3361| not |3754| that |2064| I came |2647| to annul |3588| the |3551| Law |3588| or |3588| the |4396| Prophets. |3756| not |2064| I did come |2647| to annul, |0235| but |4137| to fulfill.
18. |0281| truly |1063| For |3004| I say |5213| to you, |2193| – |0302| Until |3928| pass away |3588| the |3772| heavens |2532| and |3588| the
|1093| earth, |2503| iota |1520| one |2228| or |3391| one |2762| point
|3364| in no way |3361| – |3928| will pass away |0575| from |3588| the
|3551| Law, |2193| – |0302| until |3956| all things |1096| occur.

Gk 4137 to fill, has filled, filled, supply abundantly or fully, impart richly, imbue with, to be filled, full, to be fully supplied, to abound unto all fullness, to complete, to fulfill or accomplish a prophecy, to be fulfilled, accomplished, to have been accomplished, bring to a full end, to ended, to finish, to fill out, to make perfect, to accomplish an end., to be made full, to intoxicate, to crave, to satiate, to conclude, to execute, to perform,, to ratify, to make authoritative.

In Greek, we have Yeshua categorically stating that he did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill. Now if one really wants to argue a point in English, that the word “fulfill” in this context means “to terminate or bring to a complete end,” then it stands to reason that the argument must include not just the Law, but also the Prophets. If that is true, He fulfilled 800 prophecies of His first and second coming at His first coming. We would have no earth right now. The Millennium would have ceased 1000 years ago, we would be spirits in a new heaven and a new earth. There would be peace world-wide, we wouldn’t need jobs, and all our necessities would be met by God. Meat and food would be given freely by God. Our clothing would not wear out. We would have no infirmities to speak of. (There are still 500 prophecies to be fulfilled at His second coming).
In other words, If the Mosaic Torah is fulfilled and essentially not needed anymore, then also the words of the Prophets are fulfilled and essentially not needed anymore. This means that whatever the Prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures spoke about, it was all fulfilled; there is no more to look forward to in a culmination of any more of their words, because Yeshua satisfied all. If so, then there is this issue of Yeshua’s next set of words:
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
As of the writing of this paragraph, we still have a physical heaven and a physical earth. Therefore, based on Yeshua’s words, the written Torah also must still be with us. But even moreso, Yeshua spoke rather forcefully, warning us that anyone who annuls one of the least of YHVH’s eternal commandments (that includes the Sabbath) that one will be least in the coming Messianic kingdom. The subject of annulment of the Torah (God’s Biblical Instructions) goes back to the passage of Deuteronomy 4:1-2.
1. And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. 2. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
Nonetheless, I think one the most astounding statements that Yeshua made in support of the written Torah is in these words:
Matt 5:20. (Hebrew idiom) For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. Righteousness here = giving more in almsgiving than that of the Pharisees if they do not want to miss God’s righteousness (salvation)

Remember, I told you that the scribes and Pharisees had instituted a “new and improved” system for understanding and applying the Torah. Essentially they succeeded in negating what Moses taught by “repairing” the content of the written Law, so as to retrofit it to their way of thinking through Pharisaic halacha, in the sense that the Torah would now require their “expert” interpretations and applications. The Pharisees believed in only one authority—themselves.
As they believed, only they had enough of a superior learning to interpret the Torah and apply its words. Thus, through their retrofit of sorts, the scribes and Pharisees were able to blow a breath of their fresh air into that “old” Law of Moses. By majority consensus, they simply agreed that it needed to be done and thus seated themselves into the “chair” of Moses and took authority. By this, you could say that they started “whacking away” at the Torah of Moses like one takes a sickle and cuts down standing fields of grain. By doing this, the scribes and Pharisees had thus successfully supplanted the written covenant with an oral law, supposedly a unique second revelation given to Moses at the same time that the written Law was given. The truth is, the scribes and Pharisees were guilty of decimating and annulling the words of Moses, leading Yeshua to say some very strong words in defense of his position. From Yeshua’s perspective, one could only enter the Kingdom of Heaven if one was more righteous than his rivals. Thus Matthew 5:17 reads in Greek:
Do not think I come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
This being said, let us move on to look at the words in Hebrew. Pey resh resh means to break, to divide, to frustrate. This word is often used in conjunction with a covenant or agreement. The Lord warned the Israelites what would happen if they broke the covenant with Him (Lev 26:15); and pledged to them He would not break it (Lev 26:44).
The idea of Matthew 5:17 is to have a right interpretation of a biblical verse. If a passage of the Torah were wrongly interpreted, it would destroy the Torah, whereas if one succeeded in preserving the original intent of a verse, it established of fulfilled it.

On Matthew 5:17, he was saying in today’s terms:
Do not think that I came to loosen the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to loosen, but to provide a proper interpretation of them.
He did not come to unravel the Torah. He came to set it on a firm foundation, without changes as the scribes and Pharisees were endlessly doing. Confidently, I think the scribes and Pharisees, who heard Yeshua teaching on the subject, were forced in their own minds to face their crimes, that of adding to the Law.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
The “jot” refers to the “Yod.”
The Greek term “tittle” is the Hebrew term “tag” (“ah”) or “tagim” (plural), which refers to a crownlet that decorates seven letters of the Hebrew Alef-Beit. Interestingly, for a little tangent, these crownlets are referred to in mystical Judaism as “tongues of fire.” Also, these tittles refer to the past, present, and future.

Al, many of the Jewish Messianics may be of the144,000. Ijust found out 2 months ago that I am an Ashkenazi Jew. John Ashcraft. I have been kicked out of more churches than you can count on one hand because of my Jewishness.Jardalkal@aol.com Jesus in 2015-2017.

Al
Sorry, i did not have much time above to finish.
Psalm 73:1-3 Truly God is Good to Israel, to those who are PURE IN HEART. 2. But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled, my steps had nearly slipped. 3. For I was envious of the arrogant, when I saw THE PROSPERITY OF THE WICKED.” Are the wicked in this passage Breakers of the Law? The author says he almost stumbled from being pure in Heart. Verses 4-9 describe these “wicked people” and their wickedness. Then verse 10 “confuses” the matter saying “Therefore His people turn back to them, and FIND NO FAULT IN THEM.” If the Jewish people knew the law, how is it that they found no fault in these Wicked refered to here?
Verses 21-23 then discuss the Psalmists own situation: “When my soul was embittered, when i was pricked in heart, I was bruitish and ignorant; I was like a beast toward you. Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand.” So Then, this Psalmist showed that in his righteous indignation, God was with him.
Basically, this psalmist is making a contrast between wickedness, and being pure in heart. Though the sin of the wicked may not be visible, (they abide by the law), because they do it with a proud and boastful heart it is counted as wickedness by God. But because the psalmist was “pure in Heart” his apparent sinfulness was counted as righteousness by God.
Was this psalmist considered Pure in heart because of his works? no, But he was found righteous by God’s grace. Just as the sacrifices of the Jewish people were not in and of themselves enough to atone for sin. The sacrifices were accepted by God when the people were repentent and not proud (AKA Pure in heart Vs Wicked)
So long as Man believes that they have any shot of salvation by doing works they are deceiving themselves, and are guilty of the sin of pride (being like unto God). Any “addition” to God’s Grace is wicked in his eyes. This is the original sin that Adam and Eve committed. They were deceived into it by Satan by saying they would be “like unto God”. It was from the tree of “the knowledge of Good and Evil” that they ate from. Sounds an awful lot like the law and legalism. This is the one sin that God redeems us from, that allows us to be “pure in heart”. This is the One sin, that no work we do can take away from us. Though we follow the letter of the Law, It is only God’s grace that can remove this from our hearts. This is the “instantaneous sanctification” which theologians talk about. This is what makes our conversions seem like a dramatic change, It is like throwing away our very selves.

“progressive sanctification” is what takes place in our walk with God. This is after the conversion and is done by the grace of God through the holy spirit. Note that no where is the individual responsible for this work. If we force ourselves to follow a list of laws, is that then not us relying on ourselves, instead of God to sanctify, hence we are again falling to our sin of pride. In due time, however, God will make us into a “new Creation” in Christ, But we must, As the old saying goes, “let go and let God.”

My personal experiences in life are similar to this, in that I went from an ultra strict legalistic church, to one that was more in line with these beliefs. It was a wonderful moment of growth in Christ, for me as well as my family. Soon, however my reliance on the law and my works came to the forefront. it was not until i was knocked down off my podium that my Relationship with God began to grow again, and he began to truly control my life. The times that God is distant, have always been times in my life that i have relied on my good works, rather than submitting to God’s will.

I suspect, James had a similar such experience in his move away from Catholocism. It is not even the church we belong to that makes our faith right. This is why i cannot condemn people for being catholic, but will condemn the institution, Nor will i condemn the individual for being a “seventh dayer” but may criticize the motive for the belief. So if he does it in “honor of the Lord” Romans 14:6, Then what right do i have to criticize him for doing so? So long as he doesn’t say this is condition of salvation.

Hi AL,
Thanks for your excellent insight into the scriptures above. Over the years I have often gone to bible study websites to explore various scriptures that people have quoted to prove the law is dead. In every case (so far) I have discovered that there is a “back-story” going on that once put in proper perspective nullifies their claims. It often takes a bit of study to extract the truth but I urge everyone to check into such claims very carefully before deciding what exactly they believe. As a former catholic I have a lot of experience in rejecting former beliefs. Many of you will agree that they are the apostate church referred to as the whore of Babylon. Babylon being all of the man-made, non-biblical elements that have infiltrated the churches of today. I believe it has been Satan’s primary goal to get Christians to reject God’s laws and commandments. He wants man to sin which is offensive to God. Therefore he will try to spread false teachings to that end, but he is very smart and has found clever ways to misinterpret the Word in addition to introducing pagan practices into the church. He considers Sunday to be his day of worship – his followers admit that and he is doing his best to get Avery Christian to worship on his day rather than the true sabbath. He has succeeded quite well, don’t you think?
Revelation says that the whole world (of God’s people) will worship the beast. They will have his mark. Satan already has the world fooled, and even justifying his mark. Revelation even warns that those who do not keep the commandments will have the mark. Three times in fact, but all but a few just ignore the verses. Instead they wait for a revolution in the world banking system that will never come (unless Satan has control of the banking system). I find it a little funny that they are all abuzz about how they plan to move to the country and grow a garden so they will have food when the RFID chip becomes mandatory. They plan to go into hiding so they can escape the wrath of the antichrist. They are willing to go to extreme difficulties to avoid the mark, when all they really have to do is honor the true sabbath. How hard is that? Piece of cake. But some think they would offend Jesus by doing so. They would prove their loyalty by ignoring the law. Doesn’t make sense to me.
Guess we will have to agree to disagree. Time will tell.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too will drink of the wine of
God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.”

How do you jump from mark on the forehead, or hand to Sunday worship is the mark?

You’re Exactly right Leatherneck! And their answer is arrived at by complete assumption on their part. The verse is meant to be read as literal, but as is the problem with so many, they symbolize what is meant to be literal. And therefore, the burden of proof is on them, because the fact is that, the verse is literal in what it is saying. Since it is stated that without the mark no one will be able to buy or sell, then we know that this has to do with crediting and debiting ones bank account, because buying and selling is credit and debit. They say that the right hand represents “Action” and the “Forehead” represents the mind as in “Making a descision” and viola! You magically have the mark of the beast by observing the Sabbath on Sunday. The system to be used is already in place, which is being able credit and debit ones bank account using a debit card via computer transaction. Take it a step further and bring in the computer chip that does the same thing as the debit card and there you have it. The system to perform the transactions is already here, it’s just the key that allows one to credit and debit his account that will change and that being from cards with strips to subdermal computer chips. The very fact that the world is already manufacturing subdermal computer chips for multiple applications should be enough to show the significence in relation to God’s word regarding the mark of the beast. This is exactly why the world is moving toward making cash and checks obsolete. Eventually, credit and debit cards will also become obsolete, leaving only that mark, which is how people will be forced to receive it. After all, if that mark is eventually the only way that people will be able to buy and sell, they are either going to have to receive it or refuse it, because there will be no other options. And the only people who would refuse it would be those saints of God during that time, otherwise, without the mark one would not be able to buy food, gas, pay a mortgage or even have a job and that because the payment for your work will no longer be represented in physical paper money, but by digital numbers in a virtual bank account. So the mark is two fold, to be able buy and sell and to give worship to that beast. The way in which he receives worship is because it is his mark that will be the only valid means of buy and selling and therefore, in order to be able to continue doing that, one must receive his mark. They will receive it instead of having a testimony for Christ and the word of God. In essence, they will be loving their lives more than Christ by receiving the mark, instead of losing their lives for his name sake and the word of God.

But deternming what the mark of the beast is should be the least of their concerns, because by believing that salvation is by observing the law, as Paul says, they have been alienated from Christ. The other thing is that, they don’t believe that Paul’s letters are God inspired and therefore, they don’t carry any Scriptural weight. But God forsaw this ahead of time and through Peter, identified them as ignorant and unstable men who distort Paul’s writings, which are considered as Scripture and this to their own destruction.
(2 Pet.3:14-16)

As you know, I am a logical thinker, and to me the whole chip idea doesn’t add up
I can’t figure out why God would be so angry if we change from a magnetic strip on a card to a subdermal chip.
Let’s say I am saved and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, and the law is void. I decide to use the chip so I might stay alive and continue to preach the word of God to those who are lost. There is no law against the chip in the bible, so I am fine, right?
Or will my bank tell me that by installing the chip I must swear an oath to Satan and reject Jesus Christ? That was the plot of the movie “Left Behind” so maybe that is what you believe will happen. So the antichrist under Satan’s power will force us at gunpoint (sorry, the axe(?)) to worship the devil or else we can’t get our bank chip? Will Satan be content with forced worship that is truly meaningless? Makes no sense.
If Satan wants people to reject God all he has to do is get them to reject His commandments. He also wants them to worship on his satanic day – Sunday. Now that makes sense to me.
Jesus taught in parables so only His elect would understand Him. His Revelation is also couched in symbolism – practically all of it in fact. It is why there are so many wildly different interpretations. I believe this is by design. I believe it is a test. God has always tested His people, usually finding them wanting in some respects. The mark will be a test, but of what? Have you ever seen such a crazy test before in the bible? Where is the “type” or forerunner of the mark? I can’t find the chip anywhere in the bible or in history.
But history shows us that the catholic church murdered tens of millions for refusing to stop Judaizing and to switch to Sunday worship. Hey, guess what? It was the exact same beast (the Vatican) and the exact same woman (church). And the 5th seal tells those martyrs that they must rest yet a short time before their deaths will be avenged (the Vatican will be destroyed).
Those out there who believe the “Left Behind” scenario are in for a big disappointment. None of it will happen. No antichrist, no 70th week of Daniel, no chip, no rapture.
Just a simple test. Honor the sabbath of God or honor the sabbath of Satan.
Sounds more like something God would do, at least to me.
Speaking of crazy things, look at all the nutty things that the recent super-moon has ccaused. Wild, huh?(Just trying to keep on topic here…)
🙂

I wish that you could truly understand what is being said regarding the beast and his mark. The concept is that by making obsolete all other methods of buying and selling, people will be forced to receive his mark and that because there will be no other way to do buisness and survive. Jesus said, if you love your life you will lose it, but if you lose your life for my name sake and the word of God, you shall have ubundantly, eternal life. When the mark of the beast is the only thing left that will allow people to make purchases and pay their bills via computer transaction, then they will be faced with a decision, recieve the mark in order to save their lives or reject it and take their stand with Jesus keeping their testimony of him and the word of God. At that time there will be no grey area. You receive it or reject it! The reason why God cares is because the mark belongs to his enemy, the beast, who will be proclaiming himself to be God or anything that is called God or worshiped. The fact is that no matter what you or anyone else thinks is right or wrong, when this mark comes out and anyone receives it, then they will suffer the eternal consequences mentioned in Rev.14:9-12.

You interpret the mark of the beast as observing the Sabbath on Sunday and give it a symbolic meaning, yet, we already have subdermal computer chips that have a variety of applications and one of them is for making purchases via computer transaction. I don’t need a brick to fall on my head in order to see the significance of this. The word of God talks about about a mark that is to go in the right hand or forehead and without it no one will be able to buy or sell and our current technology is producing exactly. The very fact that we have any kind of a device at all that goes under the skin should raise red flags, much less one that will allow people to make purchases. It is going to come down to loving your life more than God and receiving the mark in order to save your life or rejeciting and keeping your testimony for Christ. Since we are not under the law, the Sabbath is not even going to be an issue with God, but faith will be. As it is written:

“One man considers one day more sacred than another; and another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” Romans 14:5-6

The verse above is saying that under Judaism, the days under the law that were deemed holy were manditory to observe, but under the covenant of grace it no longer applies, let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.

By the way, if you did receive the mark, you would not be out preaching Christ because you would be an enemy of the beast and the whole world. Nevertheless, God has already made know what the consequences are for those who receive it regardless of what they think. Those who receive the mark will do so knowing who this man is and for the sake of saving their lives. What are you gonna do, pat yourself on the back because your a Sabbath keeper, while standing in line to get your literal mark?

“If indeed it does come down to someone, or more than one individual telling others like me I can not buy, or sell with taking an oath to Lucifer’s son, do you think that is an act of war?”

We need to understand that, the inhabitants of the earth are not going to be against this man or his mark. In fact, their attitude towards him will be just the opposite, as they will be in awe over him and will worship him wilfully as can be seen by the following verses:

“Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, ‘Whio is like the beast? Who can make war against him’ ”

And

“The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life fromt he creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.”

In the verse above, the word “Astonished” means that the inhabitants of the earth will be in admiration of the beast and therefore, for those whose names that were not written in the book of life before the world began, they will be in wonderment and amazement over this man and will wilfulling worship him and receive his mark. Furthermore, no one will be physically forced to receive his mark, not even the great tribulation saints. It will be a freewill choice for all. In Rev.13:16 where it uses the word “Forces,” (Ibid) the people are not going to be physically forced to recieve it, but as I said in another post, the forcing will be due to the fact that around the middle of that last seven years, he and the false prophet will make cash, checks, credit and debit obsolete, so that the only method of being able to do any kind of monitary transactions will be by the use of his mark via computer transaction. Just in the same way that you must have your debit card to be able to withdraw money from your ATM or to be able to swipe it through the card reader at any establishment to make payment, this is then the same way that the mark will work. The only difference is that those other methods of buying and selling will become obsolete so that only his mark remains, ergo, “He Forces.”

The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from before the world began will receive his mark wilfully, but as for those great tribulation saints, of them it says, “They will not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.” In other words, they will be ready to die resisting the beast, his image and his mark and will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

This is not going to be some kind of Hitler regime where everyone is a prisoner, but instead they will be in love with this guy, as he will be very charismatic and he will bring peace, a false peace, but the world won’t know that at the time. The other thing is that, according to Scripture, the inhabitants of the earth will worship the dragon who was identified as Satan in
Rev.12:9 and they will also worship the beast whom Satan will give his power and authority to.

The other things that need to be taken into consideration regarding this beast, also referred to as the man of lawlessness, is that he will be proclaiming himself to be God or anything that is called God and to back his claim, he will have the head of that false religious system (Mystery Babylon) as his false prophet who will be performing miracles, signs and wonders on his behalf, that is, to support the beasts claim of being God. And because the inhabitants of the earth will not believe God’s truth, God will send them a strong delusion so that they will believe the lie and that lie being the beasts claim of being God. (2 Thes.2:9-12; Rev.13:13-14).

The ten horns of the beast represent ten kings who rule concurrently with the beast, which is still future. At that time, the world will be divided up into ten regions, with those ten kings each ruling over a region. They in turn will give their power and authority to the beast. So, the beast will be at the top and those ten kings will rule over their regions, which will include each regions government and military. And because the beast will have the false prophet’s support, this means that he will have all of the the false prophets devout followers of Mystery Babylon. So, you can imagine the impact of what I am saying if the false prophet is one of the future popes, meaning that the beast will have all of those religious followers in his back pocket, because they will do what their pope and the leaders of Roman Catholicism will lead them to do. Just to give you an idea, there are currently over one billion Roman Catholics and you can bet your bottom dollar that, when the false prophet begins to perform those miracles, signs and wonders, then there will many more who will be apart of that false religious system.

Dmcal. theonly problem haveis there is no 7 year period as you pre-tribbers teac who are dispensationalists and into replacement Theology and the immenecy of Christ which are all teachings of traditions of men.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Philosophy. Here the word stands for the heretical Gnostic or pre-Gnostic alternative to the true understanding of who the Messiah is.
Human tradition here is pagan tradition, because it goes along with the elemental spirits of the world (see Gal_4:3). Contrast it with Jewish tradition (including the Oral Torah; Mat_15:2-6, Mar_7:3-13, Gal_1:14) and with Messianic tradition (Rom_6:17; 1Co_11:2, 1Co_11:23; 2Th_2:15; 2Th_3:6). David L. Stern’s Jewish NT Commentary.
Jesus went against the scribes and Pharisees for their obedience to legalism of the oral traditionswhich we call today the Talmud and I go against you Christians for your traditions of men.
So you have a choice to make. Keep your Christiantraditions and be in pain from a locust bite for 5 months or get ridof your traditions and not get the 5 month pain.
Choose wisely. In Matthew 24, I do not see 7 years of great Tribulation but all Jesus talks about is 1260 days.
Daniels70 weeks refer to the first coming of 490 years which were sabbatical and for the Second coming, it refers to 70 Jubilees which is between 2015-2017.
Oh, you get your 7 years from the repeat of the other 1260 days in Revelation where one section repeats the other and gives us a deeper look into what is going to happen during the first 1260 days.

The final Jubilee will begin on the Day of Atonement in 2015. (September 23, 2015 -Yom Kippur). There will have been 40 complete Jubilee cycles following Christ’s death. Isn’t that interesting? There are so many 40’s in the Bible and 40 is a significant number to God. The 40 Jubilees after Christ’s death bring us to the end of probationary time. After 2015 there will be no more opportunities for people to repent and receive eternal life.
“Seventy ‘ sevens’ are decreed for your people” is a dual prophecy. Daniel 9:24. It has two fulfillments:
First, the 70 “sevens” are 70 sabbatical cycles. They are 490 years, pointing to the first coming of Jesus as our Savior from sin.
Second, the 70 “sevens”are 70 Jubilee cycles. They are 3,430 years, pointing to the second coming of Jesus when His people will be permanently freed from sin.
In the fall of 2015 the 6,000 years of sin on earth will come to an end!
What are the dates of the 70 Jubilees?
The Jubilees clock began ticking in 1416 BC when the children of Israel entered Canaan. The first Jubilee was 49 years later in 1367 BC. Every 49 years another Jubilee has occurred
Jesus is King for 40 ½ Jubilees
Jesus died in 31 AD in the middle of the 30th Jubilee cycle. There were 40 ½ Jubilee cycles yet to occur to complete the total of 70.
When Jesus was resurrected He was taken to heaven to reign as king with God on His throne. Jesus ascended to heaven in 31AD and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
“Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2.
When Jesus comes the second time to get His people He will have reigned in heaven as king for 40 ½ Jubilee cycles. He will have reigned from 31 AD – 55 AD (1/2 Jubilee cycle) and from 55AD – 2015 AD (40 Jubilee cycles) for a total of 40 ½ Jubilee cycles.
David reigned over the children of Israel as their king. Notice how long David reigned as king:
“And they anointed David king over Israel. David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty-three years over all Israel and Judah.” 2 Samuel 5:3-5.
David reigned in Hebron 7 ½ years and in Jerusalem 33 years for a total of 40 ½ years. David was a type of Jesus and David’s throne was given to Jesus after His resurrection.
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” Luke 1:31-33.
David reigned as king on earth for 40 ½ years. Jesus will reign as king in heaven for 40 ½ Jubilees.
From Canaan to Canaan
The 70 Jubilees clock began when the children of Israel entered Canaan, the land God had promised them. The 70 Jubilees clock will end when God’s people enter heavenly Canaan, the land God has promised them. From earthly Canaan to heavenly Canaan is 70 Jubilees.
What will happen at the final Jubilee in 2015?
The final Jubilee will begin on the Day of Atonement in the year 2015. Here are some of the many things that will happen:
The prophecy in Daniel 9:24 will meet its final and complete fulfillment.
Everlasting righteousness will be brought in for God’s people.
Sin will be brought to an end for God’s people.
Transgression will be finished for God’s people.
Vision and prophecy will be sealed up.
The earth will be returned to God – its rightful owner.
Anoint the Most Holy.
God will have permanently taken care of the disease of sin for His people. Daniel’s prayer will have received a complete answer. Within days, Jesus will come to earth the second time to take His people back to heaven with Him and the earth will begin its 1,000 years of rest.

Romans 14
14:1-15:6 Among believers there are two groups, those with “strong trust” and those with “weak trust.” The latter are depicted in this passage as feeling they must abstain from meat or wine and/or observe certain days as holy, while the former feel no such compunctions.
On the basis of this passage Messianic Jews are sometimes asked by Gentile Christians to stop observingJewish holidays or keeping kosher. Or they are criticized as having “weak faith’ if they adhere to Jewish practices. But the specifics of the passage are clearly in a Gentile cultural and religious context, not a Jewish one. It does not teach that following Jewish practices is a sign of “weak faith.” Rather, it exhorts believers, Jewish or Gentile, whose trust is “strong” not to look down on thse whose trust they consider “weak”–precisely the opposite of the behavior described above.
The passage also teaches the “weak” not to pass judgment on the “strong” failing to observe practices the “weak” onsider important, since all believers are equal before the God who has delivered them. Invidious distinctions and disputes should give way to caring for one another and mutual upbuilding, in imitation of the Messiah. The rabbis too teach that the gifted, the rich and the learned should not boast against those who have not received those blessings from God. They too teach against having a “holier-than-thou” attitude. They too teach that all in Israel should care for each other and build up the community.
The problem in the passage does not come from the behavior it teaches but from identifying precisely who are the “strong” and the “weak” and drawing out the implications. The four most frequently offered candidates are these ( of them, (4) is correct).
(1) The weak are Gentile Christians who abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, as in I Corinthians 8 and 10. But Paul does not deal here with idol-worship as a problem, even though there are at least a dozen parallels between the passage and that one.
(2) The weak are legalists, either Gentile or Jewish believers, eithe Judaizers or of some other group, who believe thy earn a righteous status before God by their works. But a major point of the book of Romans is precisely that such persons are not merely “weak” in trust but utterly lacking in it, unbelievers not believers; whereas here the weak in trust are clearly portrayed as believers.
(3) Many interpreters bring to this passage a presupposition that the NT abrogates the ceremonial and ritual details of the Jewish Law, such as kashrut (Jewish Dietary Laws) and the Jewish holidays. They see the weak as Messianic Jews who still observe these “Jewish details” because they have not yet realized that there is no longer any need to do so. according tothis uderstanding Gentile Christians, along with Jewish believers who have “freed themselves form the Law,” are not to look down on their “weaker brothers” for abstaing from pork, celebrating Passover or fasting on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). On the other hand, Messianic Jews who do practice these customs have no ground for a “holier-than-thou” attitude toward those who do not. Quite the contrary; not only have they a direct command not to pass judgement on their brothers who do not keep the Law, but theire is implicit in this interpretation and indirect, subliminal message to aspire tothe “strong faith’ that will “free them from the Law.”
I believe that it is true that Yeshua’s sacrifice alters the meaning of Temple sacrifices and eliminates the need for most of them (see Hebrews 7-10&Ns). But it is also true that the NT itself “has been given as Torah” (Hebrews 8:6b &N); as a result Torah itself has been transformed (Heb 7:12&N). In particular, Gentiles have been brought into an expanded Messianic people of God (Rom 11:23-24&N); and the relationships between Jews and Gentiles in this new Messianic people of God have been spelled out (e.g., in Acts 15, in Galatians, and at Rom 15:27). Yet the major changes are not in the Torah itself but in how to apply it, how to establish priorities among conflicting commands that might goven a particular situation (see Jn 7:22-23; Gal 2:12). Such changes are not so much in the content of Torah as in the hearts of those entrusted with determining how to use it (Matt 18:18-20). Yeshua himself said he did not “come to abolisht he Torah (Matt 5:17); it distorts his staement of it is interpreted to mean that he came to abolish the ritual, ceremonial and civil aspects of the Law and to preserve only the moral aspects.
In any case, it is clear form the passage itself that the “weak” cannot be equated with observant Messianic Jews. For nothing in Judaism requires a Jew to be a vegeterian (v. 2). It is argued the kosher food might not have been available. But Rome had a large Jewish colony (Acts 28:17); it is unthinkable that it would not have had a shochet (ritual slaughterer). It is argued that the shochet might have been unwilling to sell to Messianic Jews. But this is a gratuitous assumption for which here is no evidence, and the willingness of the Jewish leaders of Rome to come and listen to Paul (Acts 28:17ff.) argues against it. Also nothing in Judaism requires a Jew to refrain from wine (v. 21); the only exceptions are Nazarites during the period of their vow and priests on duty. On the contrary, wine-drinking is so much a part of Jewish ritual that it is lent an aura of sanctity which, at least until recently, made alcoholism very uncommon among Jews.
For these may reasons we conclude that the “weak” cannot be Messianic Jews who are “not yet freed from the Law.”
(4) The weak are believers, either Gentile or Jewish, who have not yet grown sufficiently in their faith to have given up attachment to various ascetic practices and calendar observances. Their tie to these activities, however, is not supported by a rational though mistaken ideology, as with the legalists of (2) above. Rather, it is irrational and emotional, linked to psychological needs, social pressures or superstition, or it may simply be a matter of habit. When their activities in these areas are questioned in “arguments over opinions” (v. 1), they are not “fully convinced in their own minds” (v. 5), not “free of self-doubt” (v. 22), but rather easily “upset” or even “destroyed” (v. 15) and thus able to “fall away” or “stumble” (vv. 20-21). This is why Paul calls them “weak.”
At least four distinct groups of people fit the description:
(a) First are Gentiles who, as in (1), want to avoid the appearance of evil by maintaining physical and emotional distance from anything that remids them of their previous idoatrous practices. In this category should also include anyone, Jewish or Gentile, who wants to avoid the trapping of his former sinful way of life.
(b) Second are Gentiles who adopted elements of Jewish practice as part of their faith along with believing in Yeshua. They have, as it were, bought what they considered a whole package and have not yet unwrapped it and decided what is really important for them. In the first century the phenomenon was common enough to require considerable attention in the NT (Acts 15 and wht whol book of Galatians, for starters). Today it rarely happens in relation to Jewish practices, but it is very common for someone to accept Yeshua in a particular Christian setting and only afterwards discover that some of the practices he has picked up in that setting are not esential to his faith.
(c) Third are Gentiles or Jews who have brought into the faith practices found in other religions with which they are familiar. These practices often appeal to their religiosity but are irrelevant or even contrary to the Gospel.
(d) Fourth are Messianic Jews who have not grasped how the incorporation of the New Covenant into God’s Torah and the presence of the Holy Spirit in themselves alters the way in which the Torah is to be applied. They therefore feel a compulsiveness about observing ceremonial and ritual details. When their faith grows stronger they will be free not from the Law but from this compulsiveness.
But “weak” is the wrong word for Messianic Jews who have decided out of conviction to observe the Law as interpreted by the rabbis in the same way as a non-Messianic Jew would, except for such parts of it as they believe might conflict with the Gospel. their reason might be, for example, in order to strengthen their sense of Jewish identity, or to deomonstrate that believing in Yeshua does not turn a Jew into a Gentile, or to help preserve the Jewish community by upholding its distinctives publicly. Or they might simply be satisified that in most instances the rabbinic directives and principles adequately express God’s will. So long as they do not impose their pattern on others but uphold the unity of Jews and Gentiles in the Body of the Messiah, neither passing judgment nor looking down on those who behave or believe differently, they are among the “strong in trust,” not “weaker brothers.”
1-12 Paul here discusses the porper attitude Christians should have toward each other in debatable areas of conduct (things which are clearly not stated to be wrong). He says tgat we are nit ti judge one another in such matters, because God has received both the weaker and stronger believer (vv 1-3), because we can differ in good conscience (vv 4-6), and because we shall all be judged by the Lord (vv. 7-12)
1. Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
weak in the faith. I.e., one who does not yet have full knowledge of how to live as a Christian, In this case it is one who eats only herbs and vegetables, v. 2, and not meat.
To welcome someone only in order to lure him into a futile dispute, or equally, to welcome someone who comes only to argue, is not the “love” of 12:8-10 and 13:8-10 but the “quarreling condemned at 13:13.
2. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Eats anything..only herbs. Paul is not proposing tnat the Jewish dietary laws have been abrogated. See Rom 14:1-15:6N and Mark 7:19, Acts 10:17-19; Gal 2:11-16.
3. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4. Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
3-4 Paul chooses his words carefully in order to pinpoint the sin of each. The one who eats anything might take pride in having thought the matter through and freed himself from his fears and compulsions; therefore he might look down on his duller, weaker brother, with his self-created fence around hisf self-created law. But the abstainer is more likely to develop a “holier-than-thou” attitude and pass judgment on the other as careless or a libertine. In this letter, boasting has already been condemned at 1:22, 30; 2:17-27; 3:27-4:2; 11:18, 25; 12:3ff; and judging at 2:1-3.
4 The Romans obtained many of their slaves through warfare. In addition, some criminals and pirates engaged in the business of capturing people and selling them as slaves. Slaves could be bought in markets without their origin being knownm while children of slaves were slaves from birth. Pual did not discuss the abolition of slavery, but did speak to masters and slaves on how to live within that culture’s institutions.
5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
One person considers some days more holy than others. The reference is not specifically to Jewish holidays but to any days that any believer might have come to regard as especially holy. This is because the “weak” are not specifically Jewish believers, but any believers attached to particular calendar observances (see Section (4) of 14:1-15:6N).
Each should be fully convinced in his own mind. This principle for dealing with doctrinal and practical disputes applies to “adiaphora” (matters about which the Bible is indifferent) and must be balanced against 2 Tim 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living.” Where Scripture gives a clear word, personal opinion must give way. But where the Word of God is subject to various possible interpretations, let each be persuaded in his own mind while at the same time ‘outdoing one another in showing respect for each other. (12:10).

6-12 Judging and boasting do not befit people whose standing before God is equal. Verse 11 quotes Isa 45:23, also cited by Paul at Philp 2:10 in a similar context (and compare 15:1-3 below with Phil 2:1-8).
6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
1-6 Differences of opinion prevailed even among the immediate followers of Christ and their disciples. Nor did St. Paul attempt to end them. Compelled assent to any doctrine, or conformity to outward observances without being convinced, would be hypocritical and of no avail. Attempts for producing absolute oneness of mind among Christians would be useless. Let not Christian fellowship be disturbed with strifes of words. It will be good for us to ask ourselves, when tempted to disdain and blame our brethren; Has not God owned them? and if he has, dare I disown them? Let not the Christian who uses his liberty, despise his weak brother as ignorant and superstitious. Let not the scrupulous believer find fault with his brother, for God accepted him, without regarding the distinctions of meats. We usurp the place of God, when we take upon us thus to judge the thoughts and intentions of others, which are out of our view. The case as to the observance of days was much the same. Those who knew that all these things were done away by Christ’s coming, took no notice of the festivals of the Jews. But it is not enough that our consciences consent to what we do; it is necessary that it be certified from the word of God. Take heed of acting against a doubting conscience. We are all apt to make our own views the standard of truth, to deem things certain which to others appear doubtful. Thus Christians often despise or condemn each other, about doubtful matters of no moment. A thankful regard to God, the Author and Giver of all our mercies, sanctifies and sweetens them.

Hi Lyndsey,
I’ve been posting this same video and others like it on other blogs for years now. I’ve known about the prophecy for 25 years but until the internet I had no way to research it.
It fits perfectly with my interpretation of Revelation and confirms that the woman is the church that sits in the city of 7 hills, which is definitely Rome. The beast she rides is the Vatican. Remember from Daniel that a beast is a kingdom and the Vatican is the only church that fits that description – it has nation status in the UN.
The idea that the Vatican will take over the world banking system is absurd, and the idea that they will ever reject Christ as Divine is just as ridiculous. They believe that every other religion is apostate including the Protestants. There is no way in hell that they will reject 2000 years of theology. As I keep saying, it is not logical.
But the Catholic church has already written a proposal that would order mandatory Sunday worship and outlaw Friday and Saturday worship, just as it did in the dark ages after the council of Laodicea. That is what the final pope will manage to do and I’m sure all Christians will praise him for rejecting other forms of worship, since by that time I believe the Muslims will be staging religious attacks on Christians throughout Europe (the revived Holy Roman Empire).
Now I wouldn’t be surprised if the last pope (the False Prophet) tries to instigate a false mark to throw believers off the truth, but the fact is that billions will follow the beast and take it’s mark without ever realizing they have it. They will be watching for a Muslim threat and gather every Sunday to pray for their salvation. Satan has them right where he wants them. Ask any satanist, if they are willing to reveal their secrets. Or watch this video that Lyndsey posted on another blog:

You know, if I were to ask a chipster why we can’t take the chip they would respond “Because you must agree to worship Satan in the process.” But then I might ask, so who cares? And they might respond “God cares, silly.” But what if I still believe in Jesus too?” I would reply, and they might say “Because we are to have no other God’s before YWH.” But then I could say “But the commandments are dead, there is no such law any more. We can have as many God’s as we like now.”
Now I’m sure Don and others would never buy that line of reasoning, but the bottom line is that if he is right about the chip, then we are talking about breaking the first commandment instead of the fourth. But it doesn’t really matter, cause if you break one, you broke them all.
But think about this – would Satan pick such an obvious commandment to get people to break? He’s too smart for that. He will pick the one that most Christians have been ignoring since the 5th century, and they all defend it as being the all new and improved “Lord’s day.” And as we know from the video, it is already Satan’s day, so it is a perfect plan, and it is working beautifully.

But why are we even worrying about it. Aren’t we all supposed to be raptured before the antichrist makes his appearance?

Well, maybe the atheists will read our blogs when the time comes. Guess the Book of Revelation was really written for those guys.
😉

James
what happens if the catholic church, say, has a relic that supposedly contains the blood of Jesus, does a dna test and finds that this blood has a human males dna in it. I bet they would rather quickly nullify 2000 years of theology in order to save face? NO?

Actually, the Catholic church does have 2 relics with the blood of Christ on it; the shroud of Turin and the accompanying head cloth which is housed in a cathedral in Spain. They have tested it and found it to be human. They even have a blood type (it was an old test).
In addition Ron Wyatt has found Christ’s blood in Jeremiah’s grotto and a DNA test shows it to be a male human with only one human (female) donor.
So far, not a peep from the Vatican. Apparently you believe that Jesus was not a human being. Marianne will tell you that a human female can only give birth to another human. If He was not human, what do you think He was? Maybe a hologram?
But this is beside the point. You must live in a fantasy world if you believe the Catholic church would just decide to go out of business and reopen after some drastic theological remodeling as some kind of conglomerate of all the world’s religions.
That is as crazy as believing that the USA is going to shut down it’s government and turn it all over to some charismatic New World Order -leading antichrist dictator dude. Talk about illogical, but I read the theories all the time. It’s “Left Behind” taken as fact.
The idea of a one-world unified church is popular nowadays – I guess it goes along with the New World Order. But the truth is that it will only be the Christian world that will unite with the Vatican near the end time. So far 11 protestant denominations have agreed in principle to put aside their former differences and rejoin the Catholic church. This began in 2002 and is well under way. The Anglican church (most of it) has already done so. The harlot daughters are coming home to Mama. The prophecy is in fulfillment. The idea of a “universal” church of all religions combined is just silly. Who would join such a church (besides Oprah)? All talk and no action. Same as the New World Order.
And speaking of a “universal” church, that is the definition of the word “catholic” and I don’t think that the name is coincidental.
But I won’t be surprised when all I’ve described slips right under the radar while believers stand around waiting for a New World Order, the antichrist, the RFID chip, the covenant with many for 7 years, the abomination of desolation and the rapture. They are all either made up or wrong interpretations.Listen to me now and hear me later,,, they will not happen!But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Jesus will return and rule the world from the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City, as some suggest.Any Mormons out there?
🙂

James
you did not listen to what I asked. Mr. Wyatt’s sample confirms the divinity of Christ if it shows the blood to have a no male half to the dna as he claims. What if tests on say, the shroud or the spear shows that the blood has male chromosomes therefore whoevers blood therein is the product of normal human reproduction. How quickly will they conform to the muslim thinking that Jesus was not divine, but man filled with the spirit.
The mormon church is already there, they do not believe in the trinity/ divinity of Jesus. They will jump on board with this one world church as soon as they are offered the chance. In fact if you watch Glenn Beck at all, he is trying to unify all the faiths in the guise of saving our country. (not to get politics involved, and no I am not funded by George Soros) As you may or may not know, he is a Mormon. This lack of belief in the divinity of Christ is universally accepted by all cults, Islam, Judaism,etc. If as you say catholocism is part of the endtime apostacy, will they not have to compromise on this as well. Might as well drag some of the protestent sects in with them who believe but no longer preach the trinity, because they do not understand why Jesus had to be God to redeem them, because they do not dwell in God’s love.
As I said in my previous post, I am not convinced 100% that this will be the mark, but it sounds awefully convincing to me. Maybe the Rfid chip is involved?

But I do know this: I rest my life on the blood of Christ to save me, not the fact that I obeyed the letter of the Law, because when I say that, I fall back into the original sin of pride. It is not anything that I can take credit for when God writes the law in our hearts. If the spirit leads me one day to observe the seventh day as the sabbath, there I will follow. What matters more for God I think, is that we submit to his will everyday. It does not matter to me when the rapture is, even if there is one, for I would be willing to suffer through any persecution, Because Jesus was willing to suffer through the persecution of death on the cross that we might be redeemed.
If Jesus himself stood before you and said “with the new covenent, I changed the sabbath to the first day”, would you still defend why it should be the seventh day? Was not David’s murder of the Philistines counted as righteousness in God’s eyes? It was counted as righteousness because he did what God commanded him to do. He was living by faith, not his own understanding of the Law.

James
I think the beast and the woman are two different entities. The beast, in fact turns on the woman and kills her. The whore of babylon being the Catholic church. Babylon is the leader of the world Government. The catholic church will be the head of the world religion, which will be a combination of all world religions. The one thing that holds this back from happening now is that the catholic faith still holds to the divinity/trinity of God. If you look at any cult out there, this is the one thing they agree on, That Jesus was not God, only a prophet. Compromising on this belief is what the mark will entail. Note the bible says “Believe on the LORD(divinity) Jesus(human form) Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Belief is not a work. How this translates into the Mark of the beast, i am not sure. I know that the fifth seal involves us giving our testimony. It will be some sort of test by the world Government/religion. Our testimony will reach the entire world. I suppose if we pass this test by the worlds standards (Deny the divinity of Christ) we will be “marked”. Pass, fail so to speak.

If you have an open mind, this is a plausible theory. May the Spirit of truth lead us all.

Throw this in with what Whalid Shoebat says about the Mark of the beast, w/ regard to muslims and their saying “There is no god but Allah” this statement denies the divinity of Christ/trinity. In fact this is the basis of their faith, For if Christ was God the work would have been finished on the cross and there would be no need for Mohammad.

I agree that the beast and the woman are two different entities, as she is riding the beast and we are told that the woman sits upon seven hills, which are the seven hills of Rome (Roman Catholicisms headquarters). The angel also told John that the woman is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth, which at the time that John was receiving this information was Rome.

Roman catholicism is proclaiming to be of Christ, but with just a cursorary reading of what they believe, it becomes evident based on the word of God, that this institution is anything but of Christ. Roman Catholicism is paganism wearing Christian clothing and is the biggest false religious system proclaiming to be of Christ on the earth. She is that woman and will be that false religious system that the beast will use, with (Ibid) one of the future popes playing the role of false prophet who will be the one doing the miracles, signs and wonders. If you think that the pope and this religious system have a lot followers now, just wait until he begins doing these counterfeit signs. It will pull in all the rest of the false religious systems who are proclaiming to be of Christ as well and they will believe the lie. Mystery Babylon is Rome and its false religious system. Just to mention two issues that disqualify her as being the true church is that, the do not believe that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us from all sin, but only original sin and that our sins must be cleanse by receiving the sacraments meted out by their priests and that only gets you to Purgatory, where one has to remain in torment in flame in order to cleanse any sins that have not been atoned for. This is a disgrace to Jesus who shed his blood for us and paid the penalty for all sins.

The next proof that this system is not of Christ is the worship of Mary. They claim that Mary is a co-savior, co-redeemer, without sin, queen of heaven and that we must go through her to get to her in order to get to Chirst, making her a co-mediator as well. Mary was a blessed woman used of God to bring the Lord into the world in his flesh, but he existed as God, creator of all things prior to being kinned with us in the flesh. Catholicism is the prostitue because she is committing spiritual adultery against God. She is called Mystery Babylon because most of the Babylonian pagan mystery practices can be found within Roman Catholicism. In their dogma, they believe that when they partake of the eucarist, that Christ is literally coming down into the waffer and that the one partaking in the comunion is literally eating his flesh and their dogma says that, anyone who says that partaking of the eucarist is only a symbolic act representing his body and blood, let them be an athema (cursed).

So, we can see from just these that this is not the church of the Lord. Then you can get into the fact that their dogma states the infallability of the pope and that his word can supercede Scripture and many other like teachings. However, just to be clear, God does have people even within that false religious system as can be seen in Rev.18:4 where God will is calling them to come out of her so that they will not partake of her plagues that he is going to pour out upon her.

The beast on the other hand represents a couple different things. He seven heads which we are told represent seven hills upon which the woman sits and they also represent a succession of seven kings. The ten horns are said to be ten kings who will rule concurrently with the beast. Originally, the beast is identified in chapter 12:7-9 as Satan, which means that he is the one orchestrating everything. One of the heads, the eighth king who belongs to the seven, also represents the beast, who is called Abaddon in Hebrew and Apollyon in the Greek both meaning destoyer, who is let out of the Abyss at the 5th seal (Rev.9)

Don
Thank you for the lesson on catholic religion. I am aware of what they believe, and do not support the church. It is off on 90% of what it teaches. There is still a glimmer of hope that there are some Christians among them. They still believe in the sinfulness of man, and that they need the blood of Jesus to save them. Where they and many other churches get lost is they add to the Gospel the works of man as having some value to God. As I mentioned to Al above, The only works that God counts as righteousness towards us, are the ones he has done in us through his spirit and grace. It is faith that moves mountains, not man’s works. Everytime man tries to move a mountain they just build another one. The same goes for any church, the church is the fellowship of believers, the leaders the shepherds of the flock. Back in biblical times, being a shepherd was a lowly, dirty job. The problem now is that the churches and their leaders have taken upon themselves to do God’s sanctifying work for him. This is exactly contrary to biblical teachings on the church and its leaders. In fact, I think the church was supposed to be led by elders (plural) not Rabbi’s.

It saddens me to see people move from one form of bondage to another form of bondage here on this earth, when they go from one church to another searching for a home, when they should be trusting in Jesus, and living in communion with God. They will never experience God and his love for them. I guess that is what is meant by the way being narrow.

Regardless of what you think Paul is trying to tell his people, Jesus has something to say about the matter:

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version)

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:16-18 (King James Version)

16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

These verses make it very plain. No context or historical enhancements are needed. I plan to keep teaching the commandments until I enter the Kingdom of Heaven, where I will be called great.

You wrote:
“Regardless of what you think Paul is trying to tell his people, Jesus has something to say about the matter”

First of all, what Paul is telling people is on behalf of the Lord, just so that no one thinks that Paul was speaking and acting on his own accord. There are some, who out of ignorance and false teachings of men, believe that Paul was false apostle and a liar, but I assure you that if the Lord had not truly interveined in Paul’s life, Paul would have remained a Pharisee and that because he was proud of it before he met Jesus as can be seen below:

“If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regards to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But what ever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.
(Phil.3:4-6)

So, there is something to be said about a man who is persecuting the church one minute and days later he is preaching Christ. Also, Paul was having the same problem of people believing that what he was teaching and writing about was not from the teachings of men nor was sent by as can be seen from the following:

“Paul, an apostel–sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–and all the brothers with me.”

Reaffirming his position as an apostle he also said:

“I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.”

Not only this, but Peter referred to Paul’s letters as wisdom from God and regarded them as Scripture and those that distort them as ignorant and unstable men. See 2 Pet.3:14-16.

You Wrote:
“Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”

If by the verse above you are inferring that everyone must keep every jot and tittle of the law of their own accord, you are gravely mistaken. This verse is not saying what you want it to say. If our salvation and eternal life is based on keeping every jot and tittle of the law, then we are already dead, because no keeps the law, even those who have put themselves under the law are not keeping it nor are they able to do so, neither was Israel. Sin is the breaking of the law and Scripture says that, if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

You wrote:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill”

By Jesus saying that he had “not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill,” is exactly what he did. Jesus met God’s righteous requirments of the law perfectly our behalf. His mention to fulfill it meant to meet all of its requirments, not to perpetuate it.

So, let me end the arguement, has or is anyone at all on the planet earth keeping the whole law? Remember, once you break it at any point, you’ve broken the whole thing.

You wrote:
“These verses make it very plain. No context or historical enhancements are needed. I plan to keep teaching the commandments until I enter the Kingdom of Heaven, where I will be called great.”

And yet, you have broken them and will break them in the future, just like everyone else.

I will rather fulfill the law by following Christ and when I fail at anything, then I will ask God to forgive me through Christ who lived a perfect, sinless life and who fulfilled the law perfectly on my behalf, bringing it to fulfillment because its requirments had been met by him.

I ask the same question, if Jesus was asking you why you should be allowed to enter the kingdom of God, what would your answer be?

You seem to think that if we try to keep the law and fail, we are doomed, but that is why Christ died for us – for our sins. When we are baptized we must repent our sins and be cleansed by the holy spirit. If there is no sin then baptism is unnecessary, yet the apostles continued the practice and they also kept the sabbath and I’m sure tried to follow all the commandments as did Jesus to the best of their abilities.
Jesus had plenty of chances to tell His disciples in plain words “My father’s commandments are no longer in effect” yet He says the opposite. He has fulfilled several of God’s holy days – the spring festivals from Passover to firstfruits, but all is not fulfilled. He will return on the feast of trumpets and take His throne on the day of atonement, fulfilling those. But all will not be fulfilled until the second resurrection and the great white throne judgement.
Until then, His commandments are still in effect.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If the commandments are null and void, then why would Satan make war with those who both keep them AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ? These are Christians, not Jews. Apparently he hates sabbath keepers. Remember, his day is sunday…

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Whoa, look at that – those who are patient and keep the commandments do not have the mark of the beast. Looks like a pretty big hint to me. Why even bring up the commandments in the Book of Revelation if they are of no value to God?

And finally, here is what Daniel had to say about the beast power:

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

He says the beast will “think” to change laws and times. Not to actually change them as the papacy did. And the only commandment dealing with time is the fourth – the sabbath day. Yes there are many false prophets here now trying to make people think the law can be changed, and way more than a jot or tittle.

Yes, you can break as many commandments as you like and still get into the Kingdom of Heaven, but you will suffer the last seven plagues before you get there, and you will be the least, to boot.

James
you misinterpret and misunderstand what i am saying if you think that I do not believe in the commandments. It is God’s work of sanctification that allows us to be free from the burden of trying to obey them and being coerced to do so, he in turn writes the law in our hearts over time if we just get out of his way.
Note that I have not attacked the Law and its importance in our lives. Neither have I said that we should sin that grace may abound. I am questioning the motives of those that would want to impose the beliefs of man, and church on others. Isn’t this where the early church went astray and became legalistic.

Dru, the early church you know nothing about but you follow the laws set in 321 CE.

These beliefs are what the early church believed in. How well do your beliefs compare to those of the early church?
Baptism was by immersion and did not include infants.
The complete Bible with the proper Old Testament and New Testament was relied on by the true Church in Asia Minor.
A Binitarian view, that acknowledged the Holy Spirit, was held by the apostolic and post-apostolic true Christian leaders. Binitarianism is a Christian theology of duality, two personae, two individuals, or two aspects in one Godhead (or God). Classically, binitarianism is understood as a form of monotheism — that is, that God is an absolutely single being; and yet with binitarianism there is a “twoness” in God. The other common forms of monotheism are “unitarianism”, a belief in a single God with one aspect, and “trinitarianism”, a belief in a single God with three aspects. wikipedia.com/wiki/Binitarianism
Birthdays were not celebrated by early Christians.
Born-Again meant being born at the resurrection, not at the time of conversion.
Celibacy for Bishops/Presbyters/Elders was not a requirement.
Church Governance was hierarchical (goverened by priests; the organization of the priesthood according to different grades).
Christmas was not observed by any professing Christ prior to the third century, or ever by those holding to early teachings.
Circumcision, though not required, was long practiced by original Nazarene Christians.
Confession of sins were not made to priests and did not require penance (suffering submitted to in penitance; act of atonement).
Deification (to make godlike) of Christians (which begins after the first resurrection) was taught by the early leaders of the Church.
Duties of Elders/Pastors were pastoral and theological, not predominantly sacramental–nor did they dress as many now do.
Easter was not observed by the apostolic church.
The Fall Holy Days were observed by true early Christians.
The Father was considered to be God by all early professing Christians.
The True Gospel included the kingdom of God and obedience to the law of God and was so understood by the faithful.
Heaven was not taught to be the reward of Christians.
Holy Spirit was not referred to as God or as a person by any early true Christians.
Hymns were mainly psalms, not praises to Christ.
Idols were taught against, including adoration of the cross.
Immortality of the soul or humans was not taught.
Jesus was considered to be God by the true Christians.
The Kingdom of God was preached.
Leavened Bread was removed from the homes of early Christians when the Jews did the same.
Lent (the 40 days season between Ash Wednesday and Easter Day) was not observed by the primitive church.
Limbo (a regionintermediate between heaven and hell in which the souls of unbaptized children etc.) was not taught by the original church.
Mary was the mother of Jesus, was blessed (Luke 1:28) and called blessed (Luke 1:48), but was not prayed to, etc. by true early Christians.
Military Service was not allowed for true early Christians.
Millenarianism (a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth, often called the millennium) was taught by the early Christians.
Monasticism ( the monastic way of life of monks) was unheard of in the early Christian church.
Passover was kept on the 14th of Nisan/Abib by apostolic and second century Christians in Asia Minor.
Pentecost was kept on Sunday by certain Jews and was observed then by professing Christians.
Purgatory (place where souls of dead are purified by suffering) was not taught by the original apostolic church.
The Resurrection of the dead was taught by all early Christians.
The Sabbath was observed on Saturday by the apostolic and post-apostolic Church.
Salvation was believed to be offered to the chosen now by the early Church, with others being called later, though not all that taught that (or other doctrines) practiced “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).
God’s Six Thousand Year Plan for humankind to rule itself was believed by early professors of Christ.
Sunday was not observed by the apostolic and original post-apostolic Christians.
The Ten Commandments were observed by the apostolic and true post-apostolic Christians–and in the order that the Church of God claims they are in.
Tithes and Offerings were given to support the ministry, the churches, the needy, and evangelical travels and gospel proclamation.
Tradition had some impact on the second century Christians, but was never supposed to supercede the Bible.
The Trinity was not a word used to describe the Godhead by the apostolic or second century Christians, though a certain threeness was acknowledged. Elohim refers to more than one.
Unclean Meats were eaten by the early allegorists, but not by true Christians.
The Virgin Birth was acknowledged by all true ante-Nicene Christians.

You really drove the point home that keeping the commandments is not about going to heaven. As much as we have tried to expain that, they still won’t listen. The conversation always works it’s way around to the charge that we are trying to earn salvation. You are right in saying that there is a consequence for not keeping the Torah. Because of misunderstandings in the church, about the writings of Paul, and certain customs of the early Jewish and gentile believers, no one will even take the time to do a credible study on this matter. I didn’t just wake up one day and decide to keep the commandments. It was a procees. The more I learned, the more I realized it was true. It has cost some very close relationships, and some who used to be friends avoid me like the plague. But if that is the way it has to be, then so be it. There is nothing I need to add to what you have said. You said it well.

James
you quoted Rev. 14:12 above my version says ” …keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus” NOT “faith of Jesus” That’s a subtle yet big difference. The Daniel Quote you have 7:25 your version says “…change times and laws” My version says “…change the times and the Law” once again, a subtle difference yet large. I know you quoted from KJV, I used ESV, NIV translates as follows: REV 14:12 ” who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.” Dan.7:25 “… and try to change the set times and the laws.”

My bible refers back to Daniel 2:21 as comparison of language, I will quote all three:
KJV “And he changeth the times and the seasons: He removeth kings, and setteth up kings:…”
NIV ” he changes times and seasons…”
ESV ” He changes times and seasons:…”
If the same language from Daniel 2:21 is in 7:25, then it can be said that the times spoken of are referring to seasonal and temporal changes not The law about time.
As for Revalation 14:12, I have no linguistic references for it, but it is clear that we hold to both the law and Faith in Jesus, One without the other is not enough.
As for Daniel 7:25 The other versions keep these as distinct from one another, not as joined together as part of the same. Like revalation 14:12 requires both, separate and distinct. Times here is therefore not referring to the Law. Note I am not defending the first day sabbath, nor am I criticizing the seventh Day sabbath. I am only pointing to the fact that Rev 14:12 cannot be used as proof that the mark of the beast will be the Incorrect sabbath worship.
As I have been clear in my previous posts, I am not arguing whether the sabbath should be the seventh day or not, (though I did throw some verses out there used by first day sabbath people), But I have argued that this will not be the mark of the beast. As I said, I am not 100% certain what the mark will be, but am pretty sure it will not be a work.
Rev 13:16 says “…to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,so that noone can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is THE NAME OF THE BEAST or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME…” Iknow you’ve heard these arguments before, But how do you “mark” the sabbath on the forehead?
How can this prevent you from buying or selling? How is this related to th name of the beast? How do you explain the three symbols that are represented by 666 in the Bible? Walid Shoebat was the only one that has had any satisfactory explanation for this.

The debating is getting heated, and I thought it would be time to explore a different track. Perhaps we can come to some agreements on some things; Imagine that!!
Anyway here is the mission if you choose to accept it.

Obviously most of our disagreements begin after the point of salvation. How we interpret scripture, how we view endtimes, how we view the sabbath ad infinitim. My request is to put down what it is we believe are requirements of being saved, For example I think we all agree on repentence as being integral to salvation. In other words, what is it that must be believed or happen in order for a person to be saved assuming they are going to die the next day, so that all those arguements do not pertain to this individual.

“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.’ For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with you rmouth that you confess and are saved.”

Yet it will make for a fairly short post here. I believe that scripture makes it quite clear as to what it is that’s required to receive Salvation, (and to maintain that position through the rest of it’s collective teachings.)
The total acceptance of Christ’s work on the cross within our heart, which was done for the atonement of our sins would be the primary first step. I personally believe by what is taught within scripture, that this is the only way that one can begin to establish a relationship with God. This then places us into the position of of being “justified” in the eye’s of God, and begins the ongoing process of being able to establish that relationship as either one of His sons, or daughters.

Now an individual is left with a personal choice. One where they will either desire to grow and develop intimacy within that relationship, and pursue that, or choose not to. This is the process of “sanctification”.
If one dies of self, (ego, pride, self sufficiency etc.) as best as they can, realize that it is God that is their source, and that it is He that is at work, then God/Christ, through the Holy Spirit will change you more and more, from glory to glory, as time goes by into the image of Christ. It is essentially, a life long, on going process based upon “faith”.

I would also like to acknowledge something else here.
As I was in the process of responding to Al’s last post, and had delved into a historical account of the Rabbinical train of thought as it related to our debate. I came to a realization.
This then led me to question the true motivation and intentions of my heart.

Was I actually in the process of contending for God’s word? (Though I do believe whole heartedly in as to what I was going to express to substantiate my point of view.) Or, was I now only expounding accumulated knowledge, and in essence, only doing so to satisfy my own personal desire to attain affirmation, or out of say, a sense of pride? Perhaps this is something, that as we answer your question now Dru, that we all should take into consideration in the future?

Dru brings up a good point. If the bible translators can’t agree on what the scriptures mean, then how are we going to be able to be sure of what we are reading? Everyone knows that it is possible to make the bible say just about anything they want – kind of like statistics. What it come down to I suppose is way each of us prefer to interact with our maker. Take the top 20 TV ministers and you will find 20 different interpretations of the scriptures. And each one will truly believe they are correct. It doesn’t mean any one lives the Lord any less.
I’ve often wondered if God had some ulterior motive in making the scriptures so difficult to nail down, especially when it comes to prophecy. Even after prophecy is fulfilled most people fail to see it, even for thousands of years.
Perhaps He wants us to engage in discussions about it in order to get us to study harder and to spread the gospel. Some call it “Doing the Lord’s work” and I for one believe it is His wish. That is why I am even on this site.
So right or wrong, we are all here doing good works. The only question is will we be rewarded for them or does God not really give a hoot.
I think He cares, but that’s just me.
God bless, everyone.
And now, back to that supermoon…

One thing can be said by everyone here, that salvation is from the atoning blood of Yahshua. We have all stated that at infinitum. Yet, because I, and others, endeavor to keep the commandments, our profession of faith in Yahshua is viewed as something less. Suspect, if you will. We don’t trust in the commandments for salvation, we just obey the Father and how he set this up. It is not trust in a commandment, but obedience to the one that gave the commandment. If I honor Yah through obedience in the way of the commandments and works, does that affect the degree to which I am saved. Yes!!! You all know the scriptures, your works will be judged and that will determine who you are in the Kingdom. The bottom line is, do your own homework. The scripture says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Reading a certain tranlation, which is basically someone’s opinion of what scripture means, is dangerous if it is accepted witout question. Nothing is perfect, but there are a lot of things out there which do more harm than good. You will be responsible for what you take in and accept as truth. James was talking about the reason things are so confusing as far as understanding scripture, and people getting so many different views from the same verses. Yah does not lay his treasure out in plain sight of everyone. It is reserved for those who search out diligently the meanings He intended, and for those willing to conform to His Word. We were even told to do the same, when Yahshua said “don’t cast your pearls before swine.” He keeps his treasure out of the hands of the profane. You talk about the discussion becoming heated. It is intense, but that is okay. I view everyone here as my brother and harbor no animosity toward anyone. In fact, just the opposite. My hope and prayer for all is only Yah’s best. This discussion is useful and needful. A lot of things are happening in all of this, with those of us involved in the discussion, but also to those who are watching and reading. If you think the discussions the Apostles and those who have gone before, were any less heated, think again. Passion dictates a level of intensity, given the life and death natrue of the battle we are engaged in.

If anyone else would care to put their views into the above mission, feel free to do so. Come on Lindsey and Leatherneck and Marianne and others. I am just trying to bring some respect and love between brothers and sisters in Christ. Then you can go back to “working out our faith with fear and trembling” and verbal bullets.
All glory to God.

I happen to have a dear friend that is Messianic. He is an administrator of his own Christian website as well. He and his family maintain the Sabbath, all the feasts, and observances, yet he does not believe that they in anyway add to his salvation.
They are instead, simply a part of his culture and heritage.

He has posted many commentaries on his site regarding this topic, and believes fully that scripture states that the previous laws no longer apply, and that the New Covenant of Grace supersedes them.

I personally have no problem whatsoever as to what day an individual wishes to observe. It is only when they believe that in doing so, that they are somehow adding to their salvation that has me concerned for them.

ok, regarding the sabbath, I would add that for me I have found friday evening at sunset to saturday evening at sunset the best thing. I have been doing this now for a year and it helps a great deal in getting my priorities right.

I very much look forward to Friday evenings and when we light the candles and say a blessing for everyone present it gives a sense of “beginning of rest”.

I have figured out why G-d wants us to do the ritual of lighting candles and watching for the sun to go down because these form a habit-a good habit-and we are becoming aware of the day and the hour and for whom the day and hour is for-G-d.

This is also teaching my children that a day is set aside for our creator and this gives my youngest son a chance to ask questions such as “why are we doing this” and “who is G-d” etc..

When he is older (if we don’t get raptured outta here first lol) it is my hope that he will continue this and share this with his family as well.

I can see him driving home from work and looking at his watch and seeing that it is friday and the sun is almost setting and that he will remember that time that his mother made him light his candle and say a blessing and thanking G-d for all of his blessings 🙂 In that moment he will remember his mom and his G-d-His creator!

And it occured to me this past sabbath, that at a specific time each and every friday, millions of people (jews and messianic jews, etc) are lighting their candles in observance and honor of the G-d of Israel! How pleased He must be to have that kind of love and adoration shown to Him 🙂

Mark 2:27And he (Jesus/Yeshua) said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Well, I have one encouraging point about our discussion here. We all agree that we are saved by the grace of the son of God. Whether the commandments are still in effect or have been reduced to suggestions does not detract from that fact. I don’t think anyone believes we will be punished for obeying them.
The more important question is in regard to the mark of the beast which all will agree will be a test of our faith. Whether you think it will be Sunday worship or a chip in the hand it is important to God that we choose wisely.
In both cases it amounts to submitting to the wishes of Satan. Either Sunday is his day of worship or electronic transfer is his method of banking, so which will it be?
Well the good news is that we still have time to figure it out. The mark is not in force yet. The question is, will we recognize it when it comes?
I personally do not believe in the 70th week of Daniel with a New World Order, an antichrist, a peace treaty or an RFID chip. But if it actually happens, I will know the signs. If I am forced to accept a chip and worship Satan, of course I will refuse. But if I’m right, and none of that will happen, how will we know we are in the great tribulation? If the next pope is the false prophet and he proclaims Sunday worship is a must for salvation (John Paul II already did that in 2002) how will that differ from what he and all previous pope have been proclaiming for 1500 years? With everyone still looking for a New World Order, the whole world might follow the pope.
It turns out there is a sure-fire way to know when we are in the Great Tribulation – the two witnesses. Remember those dudes? They will preach in Jerusalem for 3-1/2 years, with the power to shoot flame from their moths and keep rain from falling wherever they want. Then will finally be killed and lay dead in the street for 3-1/2 days and then will be resurrected just before Christ returns.
So if you see the witnesses, you will know the game is on. No New World Order, no antichrist, no rapture, then maybe it’s time to reevaluate your predictions. Simple as that.
So maybe I’m a crazy cultist, or maybe you will thank me later. Time will tell.I will pray for us all.

I will leave two things for the list, They are:
acts 16:31 “…”believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Thus there is in this statement a belief, in the Lordship or divinity of Jesus, and that his work on the cross is sufficient to save us.
The other which I mentioned earlier, is repentence. Luke 13:3 “NO, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” This Repentence is an acknowledgement of our inheritence of Adam’s sin making us unworthy of salvation apart from the grace of God, as manifested in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

I will sum up the mission later tonight. Perhaps we will be able to sing Kumbahyah together, and then resume our attacks.

Just for clarity about the past two posts you have written, I do agree, gernerally, with your comments about “verbal bullets” and “attacks”, but only as they apply to the different understanding of certain scriptures and to what their meanings are. They do not apply to the people (at least as far as I am concerned) who hold alternative views. I believe it is the same attitude with the rest of us who are involved in these discussions. If I believed it was other wise, I wouldn’t be responding to any of this. There would be no reason. I know the statements you made were kind of tongue and cheek. Just trying to make sure that those who are spectating don’t believe there is animosity betweeen all of us. We are truly brothers in the Messiah!!!!!

Hello all.
I want to thank each and everyone of you that took part in the mission I placed before you. I must admit, this was a bit of a trick question. Salvation, is dependent on only two concepts: Repent and Believe in the Lord Jesus. the two of these concepts put together form what is known as faith. When we are living in faith, we are reminding ourselves of these two concepts, when we choose to obey God’s law, or praise and worship God, or love God, or are baptised, it is because of these two concepts that we are able to do it. any thing we do as Christians should lead us back to the cross, and our salvation.

Repentence is the acknowledgement of our sinfulness and unworthiness to be saved. This the result of Adam’s sin. The only thing we deserve is death and Hades for our sinfullness, and None of our works can save us.

Belief in the divinity of Jesus (AKA LORDSHIP). Since no man can Earn salvation not even a newborn, Jesus had to be divine. His sacrifice is the only sacrifice worthy of covering our Sin. Unlike the sacrifices of the Old testament, which God accepted when the people were repentent, they did nothing to get rid of the sin of Adam from humans. In other words they covered and forgave our sins from the past, but not our sinfullness. The reason for the Law, any law, was that our sinfullness might be exposed and lead to our repentence.

If your church accepts these two things as the only way to salvation, then that church is “true”. If your church adds other conditions to repentence and belief as a condition of salvation, it is in error, and faith is misguided. If your church takes one of these things away from salvation, then it is a false religion and Not Christian. The catholic church’s beliefs on salvation are in line with these two concepts, except for the fact that they do not believe in the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice to forgive all sins, Past present and future (this is the concept of Imputation) thereby adding works to forgive our sins. This church is in error, and in need of correction. Likewise, if a church makes claims that repentence has to be done a certain way, thereby making the belief in our unworthiness a work that we can credit to our salvation and must be corrected.
The Mormon church, Jehovah Witnesses, Islam, and any other “cult” deny that Jesus was God; these are all false religions. When you believe that Jesus was not God, You are either denying that man cannot save themself, (repentence) or that his sacrifice was insufficient to save us.

The last option denies the sinfulness of man. “I live a good life, how can God justify punishing me.” is the Mantra of this group. This is also known as secularism. Atheists, agnostics, Humanists, and any unbelievers fall into this category. (How many times have you heard that quote or something similar to it in conversations about religion.)

If your church falls into one of these three categories, it is not the True church (the bride of Christ), But if you personally believe in these two tenets of Christianity, then you are saved.

Al and James, It was hard for you to remember your repentence and I commend you for being able to humble yourself enough to take part in this. Gregg, you also had a moment where you relized the motives were not right, You were able to humble yourself and remember the cross an I commend you for it. Gregg and Marianne thank you for your input as well, and do not forget the cross. I especially liked Mariannes point of keeping everyday holy, though this is not a requirement of salvation.
When we remember God’s sacrifice, and our unworthiness, we are living by faith. The more we dwell on the cross, the more we can remain humble and love God with all our heart.
When we remember God’s sacrifice, and our unworthiness, we are living by faith. It keeps us humble, so that we don’t get set in our ways so much that we cannot grow in Christ. Understanding where each of us has come from by God’s grace, also teaches us how to love one another as Christ loved us.

Hello everyone,
I’ve been looking into this discussion and I am having a hard time finding a major church or denomination that teaches it’s congregation that the ten commandments are no longer God’s law. The catholic church has removed the second commandment and changed the day of the fourth, but they still keep them (or try). I don’t know of any high profile TV minister/evangelist that preaches it either. I’ve listened to many – Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Joel Olsteen, Pat Robertson and many more and never heard them teach that we can no longer sin because the law has been nullified (not including food laws and such).
Being a logical person, I wondered why if the apostles taught that all the laws were dead, why isn’t every modern church teaching this doctrine? They should have been teaching it for 2000 years, so why is it popping up only fairly recently? It reminds me of the rapture theory that only began in the 1830’s with the teachings of a single man. Also the Mormons come to mind.
Perhaps the problem lies in one’s definition of works. I don’t believe that obeying the commandments is work. As a former catholic I know that attending mass, confession, communion, tithing etc. are works that are considered necessary for salvation according to the church. Jesus Himself was a great worker, and we should follow His example. We don’t need to but I believe on judgement day, that is how we will all be judged. It won’t be a pass/fail system, we will all pass if we acknowledge Christ as our savior, but there will be a curve. We know that in the kingdom of God there will be some called “greater” and others will be “the least.” Our works will count for something, but are not necessary for eternal life.
As for sin, it still exists and without the law there can be no sin and without sin there is no need for atonement. Christ will return soon and take His earthly throne on the Day of Atonement, when the wicked will be judged and the righteous rewarded. There is no need for atonement unless there is transgression.
And what about the antichrist/False Prophet. He is referred to as the “lawless one” and “the man of sin.” That tells me that the law is still in effect in the end times. In fact I believe that the beast will attempt to get many to follow him into lawlessness with his mark.
And here is one last thing to ponder. After Jesus returns to set up His government on earth, do you suppose He will institute any laws, or will man be free to live however he sees fit? Will prostitution be condoned? Murder with an apology? How about speeding? It is completely illogical to think that even God can run a planet without rules. Do you think Jesus is going to throw out all the things He taught when He was first here?
This is why I will never believe that God cares so little about the laws He personally carved in stone that He would ever be willing to toss them out the window. Jesus said He did not come to change or destroy the law, but to fulfill prophecy and forgive sin for those who believe in Him. Change that interpretation as you like at your own peril.

James
As Imentioned in the other post you left this comment on, try Dave Hunt and T.A. Mcmahon at the Berean call.com. T.A. Mcmahon was a former Catholic who came out of the Catholic church like yourself.

Also, look for a bible believing church, and get involved in some of the smaller study groups. Interaction with fellow believers is more essential in the process of working out our faith than we imagine. I, for about the past ten or so years have looked for a church to belong to, which agreed with my faith and beliefs, and have finally found one which preaches the word of God. Though I do not agree with all that they preach, the essentials are correct. I know you have been strong on the need for the seventh day being the sabbath, and perhaps this is your calling to help correct the church on, but perhaps in your discussions with others you will find convincing proof not to observe the Seventh day as the sabbath. As you say, we will be rewarded for the works on earth that we do, but they will not be of our own merit, but rather given us by God’s grace. Galations 5:22-24 says; “but the fruit of the SPIRIT is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23.gentleness, self control; AGAINST SUCH THINGS THERE IS NO LAW. 24. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” This is what walking in the spirit entails, and these are the “works” we will be rewarded for, But no man alone can accomplish these things unless they are led by the spirit, and not by themselves.
Paul also lists before those verses, the “works of the flesh”. there are two in particular that stick out to me with regard to the conversations we have been having, namely “dissensions, (and) divisions.” This is why I wanted to bring us back together with the mission above, bringing all of us back to the cross and faith.

I sometimes wonder, if the church today is in such a state of apostacy because all the “true Christians” have either been kicked out, forced out, or left out. Perhaps it is time for those Christians to go back into those churches and correct and rebuke that apostacy, and if that church does not respond, move on to the next. The lord will then deal with and judge that church.

I will exit this time with a verse: I peter 3:8,9 “Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.”

Hi Dru,
I have also spent the last ten or so years studying the scriptures, starting as a Sunday worshipper, and have simply come to a different conclusion than you and many others. Tat is not surprising considering all the branches of Christianity out there. But as a person who believes that Sunday worship equates to the mark of the beast, I can not even consider going back. Even if a New World Order dictator tries to force me to implant a chup, I still won’t observe Sunday worship. Anyone who believes all the (original) commandments are still in effect can not condone Sunday worship. It seems that many people believe that the commandments can be changed as long as the person (disciple, pope) is holy enough. I feel if you believe in them than you must go with the source. Anything else just doesn’t make sense to me.
I like your exit verse. It shows that how we treat others (works) will obtain us a blessing. These are the teaching of Jesus and I believe it applies to the law of God as well.
Hopefully God will bless us all simply for obeying His command to spread the gospel and to prophesy.

James
I like how Marianne put it above, I think God wants us to keep everyday holy. I do not believe that the commandments are changed, I am just trying to get you to strive for something more, believing from your heart, led by the spirit. this will make the law alive in your heart. Humility and submission to God are the key. A repentent heart is much more persuasive than a boastful one. the law helps lead us to repentence.
In that respect I bless you, to keep believing what you believe in, but don’t stop there. The blood of Jesus has covered all our sin, This allows us to make every day holy. Rather than living one way during the week, and then another way for one day, we now can live everyday with a thankful and praising heart. These are the “sacrifices” we are called to give to God. These are the sacrifices that glorify God, as psalm 50 mentions.

I think that by what you have said above, that the way that you logically work through things in your mind, is through a process of black or white acceptance, or elimination.
Though that process may indeed be beneficial in many respects, I believe that it can also be limiting in others.

The essence of the Ten Commandments have not been done away with.
They have however, been expanded upon through the Spirit.

An old adage that you may be familiar with is, “You don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.” Just because God implemented change, does not mean that He also eliminated the initial truths as well. Though a significant change has taken place, the previous truths, still apply and have been brought forward, expanded upon, and incorporated within the change.

That is why you have been unsuccessful in locating a church, denomination, or ministry that doesn’t believe that the Ten Commandments are no longer God’s law.
However, that does not mean that they don’t also acknowledge, that a significant change within those laws has not taken place.

To attempt to answer all of what you express above to be taken into consideration, would be a daunting chore. However, I believe that this is a journey that you should pursue personally.
I would suggest a form of “Systematic Theology” to do this.
Go to an online site like http://www.biblestudytools.com and utilize their concordance. Using say the King James version, key in the following for their search engine, (within the New Testament category) “Commandments”, “Commandment”, Law”, Sacrifices”, and
“Covenant”. All of these are necessary to encompass the topic we are discussing. Write down every verse that is displayed, (and yes there are hundreds of them.) Then take the time to read the chapters to understand them in context. By just specifically concentrating on this particular subject, you may just come away with a different understanding? Either way, I am sure that you will be enlightened in some respect.
Wishing you the best James.
Blessings.

Hi Gregg,
Turns out I’ve got that web site bookmarked (along with 75 others) and I have already put in my time in regards to the validity of the commandments. In other words, I didn’t come to my conclusions lightly. I think what much interpretation comes down to is assumptions. The same verses can be interpreted differently depending on those assumptions. For example, what parts of the Book of Revelation are to be taken literally, and which are completely symbolic. The mark of the beast is a big one, for example. Whether the law was “nailed to the cross” is another.
The bible is like a giant jigsaw puzzle and it takes a lot of study and quite a few assumptions to try to make it all fit together. When I read certain prophetic interpretations they may make sense by themselves, but they just don’t fit into the big picture. A Muslim antichrist is a good example.
But I continue to study and every so often I discover a new truth which not only makes perfect sense, but also fits perfectly with the rest of the puzzle that I have assembled so far. I study many pieces, but few are chosen for my puzzle.
So I always keep an open mind, but I doubt that I will ever come across anything that will totally unravel my prophetic tapestry. But I still read and consider other options, so I appreciate all the input I get here.
But as for me I will continue to say the Lord’s prayer every day, asking Him to forgive my sins and those who sin against me. No law, no sin, no need for forgiveness. Why say it then? Jesus taught it, I will obey it. Otherwise I disrespect Him. Anything else will not fit into my puzzle.
Praise god.

Marianne
I’m not sure where your headed with this, but as Colossians 2:17-18 says “these (sabbath, newmoon, festivals) are a shadow of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18. let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels (Mary), going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19. and not holding fast to the Head(Jesus) from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is FROM GOD.” (parenthesis and emphasis added)
Seems like, by your challenge, the Roman calender and rosh codex do not match up, and that we should be going by the newmoon to determine the sabbath day. In this respect, it could fall on any day of the Roman week as the roman week does not restart at the beginning of the month. I’d rather keep all days Holy and do the Lord’s work of spreading the Gospel to people and helping those around me. Much like Christ did, healing the man at the pool on the sabbath.

James
To me, sin is not doing the will of God, instead replacing it with our own will (sinfulness: Read Martin Luther’s discussion on will).

Christ, by removing the sin of Adam, brings us back into communion with God, if we allow ourselves to be led by the Holy spirit. We humans,however, have a desire to lead ourselves, or Put ourselves as the Head spoken of in Colossians 2:19. This is Blasphemy. This is why we must always come back to the cross and remember repentence and Christ’s sacrifice. This in fact is the purpose of the Communion in Church: “In remembrence of Me (Jesus)”. Bringing us back to the cross, and to relying on God and his will for us.

I agree fully with what you said above regarding assumptions, or interpretations, in deciphering scripture brother.
We all hope that the Spirit within us guides our mind and heart to what is actually a truth. And though I understand that when God the Father voices something, it can be comprised of many meanings, it is obvious that we as a body, don’t appear to have the capacity to put all the pieces of the puzzle together collectively.

The early church, (the Way) though also filled with the Holy Spirit, required constant instruction and direction as well, even though they also happened to have the opportunity to be able to speak with the apostle’s face to face, for extended periods of time. I believe that we, here and now, are at a distinct disadvantage in that respect.

Though the message of the free gift of grace through Christ may be sufficiently understood by those who responded to His voice, and who accepted His offer within their heart, the peripheral subjects are indeed all over the map?

This is why I have left the lid to my spiritual box unlocked, and have just thrown my hands up into the air sometimes on many subjects, left with the realization that I just don’t possess the intellectual capacity required to make sense of it all. 🙂

I am then left with no alternative but to simply leave it in the hands of God, and His knowledge of my heart.
The condition of our heart and our faith that we place in Christ is the most important aspect to hold on to. That is the only thing that is completely secure in my box. All the rest we will eventually figure out, though I believe that will only be when it actually happens.

Gregg,
A great summation. Thanks. I agree, sometimes we have to just leave everything in God’s hands and wait for the prophecy to unfold. It is important that we search for the truth, but we may never actually find it. But if we are diligent we will be able to recognize the signs when they do arrive. Therefore these discussions are part of doing God’s work which we are commanded to do. They are important.
I am glad to hear that there are many folks here who are convinced that they will be raptured before anything bad goes down. If it never happens, at least they will have some ideas on what to do and how to avoid the mark of the beast etc.
So the more we argue, the more we help other readers at some future time. I realize I’m not going to change anyone’s mind her, but that is not why I write. There is soul-saving to do here, so let’s argue on. Time will tell who is correct. The main thing is to be ready.
Hopefully, thru the grace of God we will all be ready when that time comes.
Bless…

I checked this guy out and here is why I’m not buying it.
His astronomical references are sketchy at best and do nothing to prove his point except they sound cool. That story about the object striking the back side of the moon and causing it to wobble is total BS – it never happened.
He pretends to have solved an age-old mystery that nobody else in history has been able to do. That should raise a red flag right there.
His whole idea that the 7 day week is not continuous is ridiculous. God established a 30 day month, not a 29-1/2 day lunar month. He gave no instructions to start a new week on day 1 based on the phase of the moon. If so the ancient Jews would have followed it and it would be in use today.
Whenever days have been added to the calendar, they have done so without changing the day of the week, only the day of the month. When the Jews added leap months to keep the seasons from drifting they added whole weeks, they never jumped or skipped a day.
And as for “Saturn”day being a day of false worship, that is also bogus. At the time of Jesus the days of the week were not named except for the 7th day, called the sabbath. In over 135 languages today, the 7th day is still called the “sabbath” eg, in Spanish – Sabbado.
Just because we call it “Thursday” doesn’t mean we honor Thor on that day.
Don’t be fooled by all the fancy charts and graphs either. They mean nothing. It’s what false prophets do to fool the ignorant.
God is not an idiot. He’s not going to make a commandment and then make it nearly impossible to figure out how to honor it. Unless of course you believe this guy is Christ’s end-time Elijah, sent to “restore all things.” Perhaps his mission is to restore proper sabbath worship before the antichrist begins his mark. He never really tells us what the proper days is, only that every religion has it wrong. Sounds more like he is saying we might as well just give up since we can’t be sure what day it really is.
Sorry, I’m still not buying it.

The reason I reference Sunday is because it was the day the romans held holy for their primary sun god mithra. When the emperor Justinian merged all religions in the empire into a single, unifying religion, he kept that official day of worship of SUNday plus many dozens of other pagan practices. If you look at many churches in Rome and even all around the world, the steeple (pagan) is adorned with a Christian cross sitting atop a golden globe that represents the sun. This was done to appease both Christians and pagans although many Christians refused to worship on the new day. A hundred years later the council of Laodicea proclaimed mandatory Sunday worship and slaughtered millions of saints who refused the church’s “Mark of authority” to change the time. This was the first mark of the beast and it will be repeated.
History confirms prophesy yet most deny it. Most people now believe that the last week of Daniel is yet to happen and refers to the antichrist. In reality, it was fulfilled by Christ 2000 years ago. Everyone will be looking for something that simply is not going to happen.
If you are looking for fulfillment, look first to the past. See where things went wrong. Learn the mistakes that were made. Don’t repeat them today.
Anyway, regardless of where the names for the days came from, they mean nothing today. I don’t claim that Sunday worshippers are worshiping the son. I do claim they are ignoring the true sabbath. Six days shall you labor and on the 7th day you shall rest. You know it is the longest and most detailed of all the commandments and it is the only one that begins with the word “Remember.” I think God knew that someday His people would forget.
And to think, now we have people who are trying to tell us to forget it.As for me, I will remember.

James
You will also see that I have had a consistent message of denying our own will and following God’s will. We are led by the spirit when we get out of the way and let it lead. God will also accept our sacrifices whatever day of the week we present them to Him. In fact, Marrianne can probably help me out on this one, didn’t Aaron make a bull sacrifice on the first day of the week? Also, were not the priests that were making the sacrifices on the sabbath woking on the sabbath? Aren’t we called into a holy priesthood? (sorry I don’t have the bible handy so as to reference these) Just some thoughts.
I don’t know about the 70th week of Daniel, but it seems to me that 70 ad destruction could fit as well as endtimes arguement.

On “quality carpenter wanted” in here I left a theoretical timeline for events, and how I think that both 1st and 2nd comings of Christ have similarities, and why. for example john the baptist vs. Elijah and Two witnesses compared to Moses and Elijah of NT. So I do not think that 70th week in relation to endtimes is a leap. Also I have heard arguments that the destruction of the temple does not fit with 70th week timeline? I’ll have to look into it further.

Since we are talking about salvation and its components, there is something I would like to share with all of you. Dru, this is your definition of repentance;

1. Repentence is the acknowledgement of our sinfulness and unworthiness to be saved. This the result of Adam’s sin. The only thing we deserve is death and Hades for our sinfullness, and None of our works can save us.

I might add, to a very real degree, this is really close to the way the Greek in the New Testament is translated. So, your definition is in line with what the New Testament states.
I looked up every instance in the concordance for the word repent and repentence. Not each verse, but each of the different meanings given. They all stated pretty much the same thing, for the New Testament. The following are the different definitions of the different uses of the word repent in the NT:

Strongs #7725 a prim. Root; to turn back(hence, away) trans. or intrans., literal or figuritively, (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point). NOTE: I did not finish this one, it is extremely long. You can look it up if you desire to.

The Hebrew word repented, Strongs #5162, is used in the the verse Genisis 6:6 where Yah basically stated that he repented that He had created man. You can see that this meaning parallells Strongs #3340 & #3338 in the Greek. Basically to regret or to think differently afterwards. Strongs #278 in the NT won’t apply to anything we are discussing. Just listed it to be as complete as possible.

Strongs #7725 is only used 3 times in the Bible (OT). These are the verses:

1 Kings 8:47-49 (King James Version)
47Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
48And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:
49Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause,

Ezekiel 14:6 (King James Version)
6Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

Ezekiel 18:30 (King James Version)
30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

The context of the above 3 verses that use Strongs #7725 all deal with repenting of sin to Yah. In fact, the word means “to turn” and can be used figuratively or literally.

This is my question, why would the Greek translators use the Hebrew word nacham, of Strongs# 5162, which basically means to comfort self or ease ones self, instead of the Hebrew word shub, of Strongs #7725, which means to turn away from your wicked ways and back to Yah.

There is a period of time on the Hebrew Calendar from Elul 1 to Tishrei 10 (a period of 40 days) called the Days of Teshuva (days of repentance), which is the basis for the word in Strongs# 7725.

Going strictly by the Greek words that are used in the N.T. for repent, means little more than saying I am sorry, which is great, but why wouldn’t they use the corresponding word in the Hebrew, which gives it’s strongest meaning of turning from sin, when that is actually what the N.T. writers are talking about; turning from sin and back to Yah.

My opinion is, the meaning has come through loud and clear in the church. While there are those who understand what repentance actually means and walks it out, (despite the translators attempt to dumb the meaning of repent down) the vast majority, honestly believe they can live however they want and all they have to do is say I am sorry (to ease one’s self) and then go about their carnal ways, fully convinced they are doing what is required and they are heaven bound. In fact, repentance, according to Strongs #7725 requires action on our part. So, what does that say about the components of salvation? Maybe, we have some input into salvation afterall and it was designed that way from the beginning. Just a thought!!!!

Al
I have Kids, and when they do something wrong, the first word out of their mouth is sorry, because they fear the punishment for their actions. This work that is done to avoid the punishment is empty, and not heartfelt. If they knew that there was no punishment for their action, yet they are pleading sorry, this is heartfelt, because they are doing so out of love.
Like wise, for those who are saved already, their is no condemnation for sin, for it all has been covered by the blood of Jesus; past sins, present sins, future sins. In this case, repentence is a remembering of Christ’s sacrifice that freed us from the bondage of sin, Our salvation. Remembering what God has done is not something we take credit for, Neither are our letting the Spirit guide our lives, so as to avoid sin. We choose to do so out of love and respect for God.
For those who have not been saved, repentence is the acknowledgement of our unworthiness to save ourselves. Again, this is not a work that we can take credit for. When someone says the sinners prayer, and it is just viewed as a work, it is not heartfelt. But when they believe it, it is heartfelt.
Linguistically, this is a hard concept to express, that is perhaps why there are linguistic challenges to this. Just everyday life teaches us how to discern whether repentence is done to avoid punishment, as my kids often do when they do something wrong, or when their sorry is a heartfelt sorry, accepting the fact that they deserve to be punished for what they did. In the latter case, I am more likely as a parent to show mercy and grace toward that child. For them to look back on that moment when I showed grace towards them, and then choose to do what I want them to do out of love and respect, shows maturity on their part. Not just them not doing something so as to avoid the punishment for their act.

I hope this makes some sense, But if you are doing what the commandments say in hopes of avoiding punishment, then you are not living by faith, But if you are led by the spirit to obey the commandments out of Love and respect for God and his work of Grace, you are living by faith.

Al
Taken from the philosophical perspective, this is the difference between true virtue, and coerced virtue. In other words, when we are free to do good and evil, and choose to do good, this is considered virtue. when we are coerced into being virtuous either by reward or punishment, it is not counted as our virtue. Adam sinned by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, by doing so, he sinned, and made it impossible for us to be virtuous. But this sin also allowed God to redeem us by his Grace, therby allowing us to be free to choose to do good or evil, and us choosing to do good. It is only by God’s grace that we are able to do this, But we are now able through faith to be truly virtuous.

where at first outline of biblical use but also followed with wide explanations of the use of the word based on Thayer’s Lexicon and under these are listed all the verses using the word in KJV.
By a separate clicking Trench synonyms can be viewed.
After healing people Jesus spoke much more clearly, no dictionaries needed, “sin no more” .
My simple undertanding of the repent means turning the back (turning 180 decrees) to the confessed sin in the connection to salvation. But repent is not always connected to salvation.

Al
There are clearly works that we are called to do after we are saved, Baptism being one them. This is when we receive the Holy Spirit and become part of the body of Christ. If you read the acts 2:29-41 you will clearly see that this work, is a remembrance of the death and resurrection of Christ, As is the communion. Though they are works that we do, if we do them with the wrong motive, they are counted as nothing. How many times do people get baptized into achurch so that they can become members of that church (the institution) rather than doing so because we want to be part of the body of Christ (true church), thereby remembering our Saviour’s death and resurection. Note also, that the Holy Spirit is a gift of God, as is salvation (Acts 2:38). Just because we are being baptized, does not mean we deserve the Holy Spirit or membership to the body of Christ. As verse 37 puts it, when the Jews heard Peter speak, “they were cut to the heart”. I don’t know of a better phrase to describe the definition of true repentence than that one. All our works as Christians should be motivated by this repentence. When we turn back to God, if we have strayed from his will, we are remembering Christ’s sacrifice. Like my kids above it is not that we say we are sorry (the act) but that we really are sorry (cut to the heart)

I appreciate your responses. But no one really addressed the question that was asked;

“This is my question, why would the Greek translators use the Hebrew word nacham, of Strongs# 5162, which basically means to comfort self or ease ones self, instead of the Hebrew word shub, of Strongs #7725, which means to turn away from your wicked ways and back to Yah.

There is a period of time on the Hebrew Calendar from Elul 1 to Tishrei 10 (a period of 40 days) called the Days of Teshuva (days of repentance), which is the basis for the word in Strongs# 7725.

Going strictly by the Greek words that are used in the N.T. for repent, means little more than saying I am sorry, which is great, but why wouldn’t they use the corresponding word in the Hebrew, which gives it’s strongest meaning of turning from sin?”

I know and understand what is IMPLIED by being sorry for one’s sin. I alluded to the fact that there are many who understand the implication and endeavor to walk before our Elohim in purity of life. But for the vast majority, they will follow the path of least resistance, just like water does. It is human nature. Most will not encumber themselves with unnecessary hardships if they find a reason not to do so. All of you know this. Do you really think that leaving man’s responsibility in the process of salvation, vague or implied, helps them out? This vagueness of what is implied puts the vast majority in a position of questionable salvation.

We are dealing here with a majority of people in the church who do not know the scriptures very well at all. They go basically by what they are told by the Preachers and Teachers in the church. Out of all this has come the doctrine of “once saved, always saved”. And all of this, in many instances, coming about by saying a 60 second prayer (or so), and then being told that they are saved regardless of even what they do or don’t do. Talking about implication! They supposedly, in their understanding, can live like hell but have a heavenly destination, based solely on their misconception of what is involved in salvation and scriptures that are extremely vague and open to personal interpretation. This compared to an extended time of being discipled that was in effect in the time of the Apostles, where they were told plainly what they were entering into and the cost involved in their decision, and their repsonsiblity. The confessional in the Catholic Church kind of says it all.

Yah did not give us the gift of salvation so that we find comfort or forgiveness in our sin, but rather to deliver us from our sin, by the decision and act of turning from sin and submitting to Yah, through the Messiah, for the power to accomplish this. The Hebrew word shuv (to turn) is actually used 1,066 times in scripture. The Hebrew word nacham (comfort for one’s self) is only found 108 times in scripture. Why choose the latter? Most of you say it is IMPLIED that we turn from our sin, but the end result of this vagueness, to the majority, it is IMPLIED, that we find comfort and consolation IN our sin. Basically, because Jesus did it all and we have no responsibility here. Don’t get me wrong, my Brothers, I don’t judge anyone. I don’t have the right or the authority to do that. But Yah does and will. This is nothing personal to anyone, just a needful discussion.

Again, I will ask the question, why was the word nacham (finding comfort for one’s self) used for the act of repentance, and not the word shuv, which means to turn from our sin? Are we to believe that in the O.T., before Ruach HaKodesh was given, they were told to turn from their sin, but after Ruach HaKodesh was given, and all that it means, that less is expected from us? I will leave it at that.

Al
I think I did answer your question. Your just not seeing it. In the Old testament, there was no imputation. when one sinned, they had to turn from their sin. In the New Testament, the blood of Jesus covered all sin. We are no longer condemned by our sin. To repent for our sin, is to merely look back and remember the sacrifice of Jesus (a heartfelt sorry). When we are not doing God’s will, this is the sin of blasphemy, in that we are relying on Our own will. Repenting means we are submitting to God’s will.

You write: “most will not encumber themselves unnecessary hardships if they see no reason to do so….Do you really think that leaving man’s responsibility in the process of salvation, vague or implied, helps them out? This vagueness of what is implied puts the vast majority in a position of questionable salvation.”
Paul writes: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2. For the law of the SPIRIT of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3. For God has DONE (note past tense) what the law, weakened by the flesh, could NOT do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinfull flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4. In order that the righteous requirement of the law Might be fulfilled IN US, who walk NOT according to the FLESH, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT….6. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is Life and peace.” (Romans 8:1-4,6) Note the words in there “free”, “life”, And “peace”: these are comfort words, In fact the Holy Spirit is called the comforter. Yet you want to disqualify those who take these words seriously and replace it with your burdensome asceticism. The “YOKE” is on you, as they say! In Matthew 11:25- 30, Jesus puts it as follows:

25. At that time, Jesus declared, ‘I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to the little children;
26.yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
27. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and noone knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son AND anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
28. Come to me all who labor and are HEAVY LADEN, and I will give you REST.
29. Take my YOKE upon you, and learn from me, for I am GENTLE and LOWLY IN HEART, and you will find REST for your souls.
30. FOR MY YOKE IS EASY, AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT.'” (emphasis added)

Al, why would you want to burden people with legalism and guilt, when Jesus himself said his Burden is LIGHT? What is it that God revealed to the children, that was not revealed to the wisemen? A child understands the Idea of submitting and humbling ones self, and doing the will of the parent. That is the concept of faith. Submitting to a higher authority is hard for someone who thinks they know best and have it all figured out. It’s as simple as giving Control to the Spirit, Yet those who are wise will try to live by the law and their own will.
Ironically, Chapter 12:1-8 deals with the sabbath.

I pose you this question: If Adam did not have the law, and had no knowledge of good and evil, how is it that he was able to live in communion with God? I’ll even give you a clue even “he knew no sin”.

Gregg
Thank you for that site. I am not one to always look into the original text, but rather tend to allow the Spirit to lead me as i read the Bible.
It always amazes me when I see these difference in linguistics, that the Spirit leads us to discover when we allow the Spirit to do its work.
In other words, Not having any knowledge of the Hebrew or Greek myself, the Spirit leads me to the same distinctions as were made in the original text.
All glory to God.

I did read the article you sent and I appreciate it. But the truth is, the Greek word strepho is never used for the word repentance, repent, or repented. It (and various forms of the word) is used about 10 times in the Gospels and Acts for the different variations of the word convert. This is part of an article written by Robert N. Wilkin, whose studies are based on the different facets of Salvation.

IV. Meaning of Strepho Compounds
While they are never translated as “repentance,” the compounds of strepho in some contexts carry the idea of turning from sins. The basic sense of these compounds is turning from or to someone or something. These compounds are the true corresponding terms to the OT word shub.

“Turning to the Lord” is used in the NT, as it was in the OT, as an expression for faith and conversion.70 When Paul reported in Acts 15:3 that Gentiles were turning to the Lord, he was simply saying that Gentiles were coming to faith in Christ, were being saved.

Nowhere in the NT are these verbs used to indicate that one must turn from his sins to obtain eternal salvation.

V. Conclusion
I’m still not sure what the man at the athletic events meant by his one-word message on his T-shirt. The word repent has a well-defined meaning in English. However, not all who use it mean the normal dictionary definition. Some mean merely a recognition of one’s sinfulness. Others mean a change of thinking about Jesus Christ. Still others mean turning from one’s sins, a willingness to do so, or a sense of remorse over one’s sins.

I wish we could retranslate the NT. It would make teaching and preaching passages using metanoia simpler. It would eliminate the confusion many have when they read their Bibles and see the word repent. However, this is not likely to happen. It seems that “repentance” as a translation for metanoia (and metamelomai) will probably be with us for a long time.

In most cases when the English word repent occurs in the NT it is translating metanoia. Metanoia is not the equivalent of the OT term shub. It certainly does not mean “penance. Nor does it normally mean “repentance.” Rather, in the NT it retains its pre-Christian meaning of a change of mind. The English reader thus generally needs to read “change of mind “–not turn from sins–when he sees the word ” repent” in the NT. The context must be consulted to determine the object of a person’s change of mind.

Firstly, I would like to apologize if my last post may have come off rather “snarky”. I’m going through a bout of the flu at the moment, so now I am old, sick, and CRANKY.
Never a good combination. lol. Again, my apologizes.

Unfortunately, though I would like to provide an opinion as an answer to your question Al, (and comment to you as well Dru, with more than just, “Yes, Praise God.”), I’m having problems concentrating, and putting more than two syllables together.
It’s gonna have to wait a bit. I hope that is alright?

James
I posted that because of the fact that volcanic activity caused the moon to turn blood red. Not to say that event was the one in prophecy. my point being that global volcanic activity on a larger scale than the Chile eruption could be the culpret for signs in the sun and moon.

Just another bit of information regarding this event and that being, according to Mt.24:15 & 29, the chronology of events would first have the abomination of desolation being set up in the Holy Place within the temple, which we know takes place in the middle of that last seven years and then the event of sun being darkened, the moon turning blood red and the stars (metors/asteroids) falling to the earth would take place. And prior to the abomination being set up, the world would have seen the beast make his covenant with many for one seven year period, which is what initiates that last seven years. My point is, since we have not seen either of the two events that take place prior to the sun, moon and star event, then it would stand to reason that they must take place first.

(jamesgiordano)
Hi guys,
As I have been saying all along, I don’t believe any eclipse will herald any prophetic event. Eclipses are too common and mundane and can not be seen by the whole earth. I believe the event will be a worldwide cataclysm such as a supervolcano or nuclear winter or meteor strike (Apophis) that will create a dust cloud around the planet which would darken the sun, moon and stars all at the same time.
So far all the eclipses mentioned here have been a bust, as will the ones on Jewish holidays in a few years.
Hopefully, everyone will get the idea and stop posting upcoming eclipses as if they have any biblical meaning.
But I’m not counting on that.

As for the silly video above, does anyone really believe this guy? Did the sun move 100 million miles or did the earth spin 90 degrees on its axis without anyone else noticing it? Did it rise today in the north where you are? Did it set in the south last night? Was it on the news?
And where was this guy at the time? If he was in Iceland or the north woods of Canada and if it was about 1AM then the sun might indeed be rising where he shows it. I spent a year in Iceland in the navy and I experienced the midnight sun first hand. If there was You Tube back then I could have made a similar video and fooled idiots in the lower 48 if I wanted to. But then I’m not a moron You Tube yukster out for some kicks.
I’m surprised that Marianne, a scientist, was either fooled by this guy, or thought it would be fun to pass on the joke to this serious-minded web site.
But then, she still believes in planet X, so maybe I shouldn’t be too surprised.
Sorry of the sarcasm…
🙂

Hi Marianne,
Well it’s 6:26 here in S. Cal. And the sun is just coming up – in the east, as usual. It is north of east since we are almost at the longest day of the year (Summer solstice) so it is almost as far north as it gets. After the 21st it will begin rising Furth and further south until the autumnal equinox, when it will set due east for everyone on the planet.So there!

God put al the answers to the parables in the Bible…..As for the sun, moon and stars parables the answer is in the Bible…
Rev 6-12, 13, 14…. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This this sun, moon and stars event happens as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs…..So read Hosea 9-10… I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: [but] they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto [that] shame; and [their] abominations were according as they loved.

And Nah. 3-12..
All thy strong holds [shall be like] fig trees with the firstripe figs: if they be shaken, they shall even fall into the mouth of the eater. The firstripe figs (Christians) have been shaken by the doctrinal winds of Koran and have fallen into the mouth of Satan the eater… Satan the eater as a roaring lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour…Chrislam is on his menu..

The sun being turned to blackness is when CHristians leave the truth of the gospel and no longer shine forth as the SUN…. Matthew 13-43.

The moon becomes flesh or blood….2 Thess 2…is about the great falling away from Christ..These become the sons of perdition.. These are called the man/men of SIN.. It means the men who sin the moon god indwells.. He indwells their temples (their bodies)…This is the moon becoming blood… These then proclaim that allah is above all gods…

These CHrislam CHristians are the stars that fall from Heaven. and are cast down to the earth…. Their names are no longer written in Heaven but in the earth ..Jeremaih 17-13..

This is much less complicated than trying to mix natural events and mens knowledge to find the answers to God’s parables..

If I am right we have three and one half years left.. maybe a little longer..

Incidentally the muslim messiah in the white house is who engineered the Christlam great falling away..

Forgive me, but this is yet another perfect examle of symbolizing what is meant to be taken literally, that is, the sun will literally be darkened, the moon will literally have the appearance of being blood red in color or darkened and the stars, that is, the meteorites/asteroids will be hitting the earth’s atmosphere. A good rule of thumb is that if the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense. That being said, there is no reason to apply symbology here as these events will literally be taking place at the 6th seal with the sun, moon and stars as are also prophecied in the following Scriptures. (Isa.13:9-10,34:4) and (Joel 2:10, 31)

A good example of where the sun, moon and stars are to be taken symbolically is in Rev.12:1:

“A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”

The word of God of course gives us the meanings behind the symbolism in the verse above for the sun, moon and stars as found in Gen.37:9-10. Another good example of symbolism can be found in Rev.1:20 where the stars are symbolic for the angels or messengers of the seven churches as seen in the Lord’s right hand.

In Rev.8:12 at the 4th trumpet, the sun, moon and stars are to be taken literally, as they will be darkened by a third, that is, they will only be emitting 2/3’s of their normal light so that during both night and day the earth will be receiving 1/3 less light.

One more example of symbolism would be found at the 5th trumpet where a
star falls from the sky to the earth. The fact that this star is given the key to the Abyss to unlock it and is referred to as a “He” would show that this star is actually representing an angelic being.

But here at the 6th seal, there is no reason to apply symbolism to the sun, moon and stars as there is nothing in the Scripture that would give indication to apply this as such and the events that are mentioned for them willl take place literally and exactly as described.

Read Matthew 13-34 ..All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:and
Mark 4-34…But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples…

The original Bible never said the moon will be RED or there will be blood on the moon..It says the MOON WIL L TURNED INTO BLOOD,..
Satan is the moon god..The only way the moon can be turned into blood is for satan the moon god to indwell man…Hence the moon becomes blood…

About the woman in Rev 12. First this is not Israel but the Christian church…..She is clothed with the SUN…and she has the moon under her feet….Did not God say he would bruise satan under our feet….
Being clothed with the SUn shows she is shining forth as the SUN of the righteous of Matthew 13-34.. However the dragon’s tail (false prophets) drag one third of her stars and cast them to the EARTH…These are no longer written in heaven but their names are now written in the EARTH.. Jer. 17-13…These gloroius ones who shone forth with the sun clothing have turned their light into blackness because they have turned their feet out f Christ’s truths.. THIS IS THE CHRISLAM CHURCHES…Only one third falls for the lies of sin the moon god alias allah…

2 Thessalonians 2 is about the falling away from Jesus and the men sin iindwells.
They are called the man of sin….Think Chrislam…

Incidentally Rev 12-9 shows that satan and his angels from the garden of Eden are the seven headed dragon beast…

Paul also warned us of the coming deception like Eves in 2 Corinthians 11 -3,4,14.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. WE ARE THE SEED OF THE WOMAN OF GENSIS 3-15…We are the ones who will help the Lord crush satan’s head… Crushing his head means to expose him down to his foundation.. His foundation is isihamel…

satan and his demons begin the war with the remnant in Rev.13…H e does not win…The truth will destroy him…

One more thing.. The crescent moon and adonrs everything Islamic is the exact same symbol of the ancient moon god name sin…Goes back to the garden of eden…but that is another story..History and archeology proves this…

One other little thing….Jude compared Cain’s doctrines to Balaam and korah’s doctrines..IT was the doctrine of sin the moon god….This is in the Bible…The golden calf was the symbol of sin the moon god…
Whe God told Cain SIN LIETH AT THE DOOR….He was reeferring to sin the moon god who professed to be the DOOR TO GOD AND THE HEAVENS.. He was the door to the astrology Heavens..Which set mankind on a course of idolatry, death and evil…HIS DAYS ARE NOW NUMBERED AND HE IS BEGIN EXPOSED FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE ALAH BEAST…

Without going into much detail, the problem with the claims that you are making are the same errors that so many other people make in their interpretations and that by applying their own interpretation without Scripture to back it up. A good example of Scripture supporting Scripture is what I provided for you in the previous post. The Woman of Revelation 12 is said to be clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. As I said before, God gives us the answer to the symbolisms behind the sun, moon and stars through Jacob’s response to Joseph’s dream found in Gen.37:9-10. In his dream he told his father Jacob, that the sun, moon and eleven stars came and bowed down to him, in which Jacob replied, “Will your mother and I and your brothers truly come and bow down before you?” Therefore, Jacob’s wives are represented by the Moon, Jacob represents the Sun and Jabob’s eleven sons (twelve tribes of Israel) represent the Stars, Joseph being the twelvth.

As I said, we have to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and not arbitrarily assign our own. For example, you stated the following in your previous post:

” Satan is the moon god..The only way the moon can be turned into blood is for satan the moon god to indwell man…Hence the moon becomes blood”

In order for the above to be true, there would have to be something in Scripture to support Satan as being the moon god, but I have never seen any Scripture to support this. The closest you could get with this is the Babylonian pagan practices of sun and moon goddess worship, but then again, Satan is behind all pagan practices. The Sun, moon and stars related to the 6th seal must be a literal interpretattion, since there is nothing in this Scripture to indicate that thiese are meant to be symbolic.

You also said quoted the following:

“About the woman in Rev 12. First this is not Israel but the Christian church…..She is clothed with the SUN…and she has the moon under her feet….Did not God say he would bruise satan under our feet….”

First of all, the Scripture does not state that “God would bruise satan under our feet.” What it does say is,

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her’s; he will crush you head and you will strike his heel.”

Jesus is the offspring of the woman and Satan struck Christ’s heel by Crucifying him, but by performing this, Jesus crushed the serpents head (Satan) because by Satan having the Lord crucified, He set us free from the sting of sin which is death. The law was Satan’s ammunition and Jesus disarmed him and the powers of darkness by meeting the righteous requirements of the law perfectly and thereby making the law of Moses obsolete and nailed it to the Cross as completed. Furthermore, since the wages of sin is death and Jesus paid the penalty for sins, but was himself without sin, death could not hold him and he resurrection, which is the meaning behind bruising his heel. In other words, Satan dealt Him a blow, but it was only temporary as He would rise again three days later. He crushed Satan’s head by redeeming us and taking away the law which stood opposed to us.

You also said the following:

“However the dragon’s tail (false prophets) drag one third of her stars and cast them to the EARTH…”

There is nothing in the verse that would support the dragon’s tail as representing false prophets and this is therefore assumed on your part. The first clue that the dragon is represented by Satan is that it is said that the “Dragon and his angels fought back.” Then in Rev.12:8 the dragon is plainly revealed as being Satan by the following verse:

“The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.”

In the above verse, the word dragon, devil and Satan are used interchangably. Therefore, since the dragon is synonymous with Satan, the stars represent his angels that rebelled with him against God and at the beginning of that last 3 1/2 years, there will be a war in heaven where he and his angels will be thrown down and restricted to the earth, which is what is meant by “He knows his time is short” and it is during this time, times and a half a time that Satan through the beast will make war and conquer the great tribulation saints. (Dan.7:25; Rev.13:6-7)

Also, the church is not even here during these times of the wrath of God. If you will notice, the word “Ekklesia” translated “Church” is used 18 times through Revelation chapters 1 thru 3 and is in fact the very last word of chapter 3. After this, the word “Church” is never used again within the narrative and from then on anyone who is a believer is referred to has “Hagios” translated “Saint,”but in the book of Revelation you will never see the these two words used together. Regarding the Woman being the Church, there is just nothing in Scripture to support this, but there is Scripture to support the interpretation that I gave earlier, which is the woman being the nation Israel.

You said:

“Whe God told Cain SIN LIETH AT THE DOOR….He was reeferring to sin the moon god who professed to be the DOOR TO GOD AND THE HEAVENS.”

Again, this is completely applied by you without any Scriptural support. You are basically just assigning the meaning to what God told Cain in order to support your own theory. In telling Cain this, God was speaking in regards to Cain’s sin of murder and has nothing to do with the moon god.

By saying these things I am not against you, but I do content for the truth of God’s word. It is not a good practice to go beyond what the word of God states by assigning our own interpretations to His word and so I would caution you to be thorough before making these statements and that because they would be considered false teachings.

dcmal
I always research and base everything I write on the scriptures… I also research history and archeology…
Here is the verse pertaining to Satan being bruised under our feet… Read Romans 16-20..And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
And also Revelations 12-17…”And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. “””
Satan makes war with the remnant of the SEED OF THE WOMAN …of Genesis 3-15..That war takes place in the next chapter..Rev 13…We are the remnant….Bear in mind it is not the Jews (except those who converted) that produce Jesus but the Christians… Born again with the spirit of Jesus…. Christ within, the hope of glory..

As for the false prophet being the tail.. Read Isaiah 9-15… “The ancient and honourable, he [is] the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he [is] the tail.”This is the body of the dragon beast… His heads claim they are god and his false prophet earth beast is the tail…Rev 13-1 shows his heads have the name of blasphemy.. And the earth beast of verse 11 is called false prophets in other verses.. This is the tail..

The seven headed dragon is Satan and his angels…The seven heads are the fallen angels…The stars of the woman’s crown are not the angels…The stars are THE CHRISTIANS WHO FALL AWAY….They are cast down to the earth ..This means their names are no longer written in heaven but are now written in the earth.. See Jeremiah 17-13..
It is also a possibility these same stars become the beast that comes out of the earth.. These have now become part of the dragon’s tail because they have been indoctrinated into Islam and now teach it and kill all who do not accept it.. or criticize it..

REV 17.10, 11…And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. This 7th king that was to come was Mohammed…. He also is to return as the 8th king..He is called madhi in Islam and antichrist in Christianity….These are the seven heads of the dragon…. I have much more to learn about these..But bear in mind the dragon beast is claiming he is god,,specifically the god of Abraham…Allah is not the god of Abraham but is proven by history and archeology to be the ancient astrology moon god named sin..
Incidentally the Christian church has been in tribulation since Mohammed walked the earth…and even before that…
As for the church being here…read Rev 13-7..And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
We are the remnant of the woman that Satan is making war on…He is overcoming many Christians..Have you not heard of the Chrislam churches where the antichrist Koran is placed beside the Bible and Mohammed is taught in Sunday school. I am sure the Lord is puking them out of his mouth…
Rev 3-16..So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The only verse that supports a translation theory is 1 Thessalonians 4-17…Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Satan is the prince of the power of the air.. When Jesus returns Satan will be gone and then we will be in the sprit with the Lord….transformed.. This mortal will put on immorality…they corruption will put on incorruption

So join the fight….. Don’t plan on the translation vacation…

By the way… Genesis 3-15 the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent is part of the prophecy of Genesis 1-26 whereby God said He and another entity would MAKE, (not create) men in their respective images.. Then read Matthew 13-35 through 40 and see how God and Satan accomplishes this….Both Jesus and Satan sow seed..The seed is the word of God… Jesus sows the Gospel and Satan sows the Koran which is his version of God’s words…. THese produce the children of god and the children of Satan.. Hence LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE… This sealed mystery must be understood to understand much of the Bible.. Few understand it…

I understand that you base everything that you write on the Scriptures, but I am contending that your findings are incorrect, as I also spend much time in study and have done so for the last 40 years. I am only contending for I know to be the truth, which is always backed up by Scripture.

You said:
“And also Revelations 12-17…”And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. “””
Satan makes war with the remnant of the SEED OF THE WOMAN …of Genesis 3-15..That war takes place in the next chapter..Rev 13…We are the remnant….Bear in mind it is not the Jews (except those who converted) that produce Jesus but the Christians… Born again with the spirit of Jesus…. Christ within, the hope of glory..”

Rebutle:
The problem with your claim that the church is the remnant of the seed of the woman is first of all what I had already mentioned and that being the woman is identified rightly in Scripture as the nation Israel and that because the symbols of the sun, moon and stars of Gen.37:9-10 match exactly with the sun, moon and stars in Rev.12. Also, the other problem that you have with the remenant of the seed of the woman being the church is that by making this claim you are putting the church through the seals and the trumpets of God’s wrath and the word of God is clear that we are not appointed to suffer God’s wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thes.5:9).

The remnant of the woman’s seed are those Gentile great tribulation saints that will be here during the time of God’s wrath and that because they will not have been ready at the time that the resurrection and catching away takes place. I challenge you to find anywhere where the word “church” is used to describe a believer from chapter 4 through the entire narrative. Don’t you find it interesting and curious that the word “Church” was used throughout chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3 and then is never used again? The fact that the word is missing after being used over and over again should send up a red flag as the absence of this word is not a coincidence, but is one of God’s clues.

During that last seven years which is established in Daniel 9:27, God will be pouring out his wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. God will be bringing these judgments on the Christ-rejecting and the unrepentent inhabitants of the earth. The true church has already received Christ and has repented and therefore it would make no sense for God to build his church and then send it through his wrath to get them to do what they have already done. Not only that, but God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the whole world will be experiencing God’s wrath, then the church must be removed and that because there would be no where to escape to. Now, before you use the Jesus said “You will have trial and tribulation” line, remember that these events are not your common trial and tribulations that come at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestratingi n the background and we know this because the Lamb is the one opening the seals. These plagues will be unleashed by God himself and will be unprecidented.

You said:
“As for the false prophet being the tail.. Read Isaiah 9-15… “The ancient and honourable, he [is] the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he [is] the”

Rebutle:
There is nothing here in Isa.9:15 to relate it to the dragon in Rev.12, as it only mentions that the head and tail will be cut off of Israel, those being the prominent men and the prophets, but there is no mention of the head and the tail being symbolic of belonging to a dragon and that is therefore assumption on your part. In other words, you read head and tail and simply apply it to the dragon of Rev.12 without any hint of the head and tail belonging to a dragon. As I said, the verse makes it very clear that the dragon in chapter 12 is undeniably, Satan, as it tells us that right in the verse.

“That great DRAGON was hurled down–that ancient serpent call THE DEVIL and SATAN, which leads the whole world astray.”

Do you see how the word dragon in the verse above is used interchangably with the devil and Satan? There is no mistaking this and to do so would be to ignore the obvious.

You said:
“The seven headed dragon is Satan and his angels…The seven heads are the fallen angels”

Rebutle:
Here again, Scripture is very clear as to what the seven heads represent and they are not fallen angels:

“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, now is not, is an eighth king and is going to his destruction.” (Rev.17:9-11)

So, here again Scripture supplies the answer as to the symbolism of the seven heads of the dragon. The seven hills is the headquarters of the woman who rides the beasts, Rome being literally built on seven hills. Another clue that the woman is Rome and her Babylonian pagan system, (Roman Catholocism) is the fact that in speaking of the woman who rides the beast in Rev.17:18, the angel tells John “The woman you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth.” During John’s time, Rome was biblically and historically the city that ruled over the kings of the then known world.

The seven heads are also symbolic for seven human kings. At the time the angel was giving John this information five of those kings had fallen, that is, they had ruled and gone. “One is,” meaning that king number six was ruling at the time the angel was telling John this. At the time that John was receiving this information, the seventh king had not yet come and that because king number six was still ruling and that when he did come he would only rule for a short period. Then the angel tells John that “The beast who once was and now is not is not is an eighth king who belongs to the other seven and is going to his destruction. This eighth king is the head that receives the fatal wound in Rev. 13 and is synonymous with that man of lawlessness Paul mentions in 2 Thes.2:3-4 as well as the antichrist that John mentions in his letters. This beast/eighth king is that angel that comes up out of the Abyss at the blowing of the 5th trumpet when those other demonic beings are let out to torment ment with the stings of Scorpions for 5 months:

“They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.” In both languages his name is “Destroyer,” who should not to be confused with Satan, as these are two separate fallen angels that will be working together. Major references for the beast: (Rev.9:11; 11:7; 13:3-8,13-18; 14:9-11; 16:2,10-13; 17:8-18; 19:19-20; 20:10)

You said:
“The stars of the woman’s crown are not the angels…The stars are THE CHRISTIANS WHO FALL AWAY….They are cast down to the earth”

Rebutle:
You are correct, the stars of the woman’s crown are not angels, but are not Christans either. These twelve stars represent the twelve tribes of Israel, which match the eleven stars that bowed down to Joseph in his dream of Gen.37:9-10, Joseph being the twelvth star. However, the stars mentioned that the dragon hurls to the earth are fallen angels, which is represented by satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth. More details of Satan’s rebellion and his trafficing of the angels can be found in Isa.14:12-15; Ezk.13:19 and 12:7-9. Furthermore, no where in Scripture is there any mention of those faithful who have already been caught up into heaven as being thrown out, because I am pretty positive that if they were going to be thrown out, they would have never been allowed up there in the first place. There is absolutely no Scripture to support this theory. Scripture makes if very clear that those who are being thrown out of heaven are Satan and his angels.

You said:
“As for the church being here…read Rev 13-7..And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

Rebutle:
Like so many do, you confuse the church here with the great tribulation saints of that time, as these are two different groups. I challenge you again to find anywhere where the word church is used to describe the saints after the end of chapter 3. The saints that the beast makes war with and conquers are as follows:

“Then one of the elders asked me, ‘These in white robes–who are they, and where did they come from?’ I said, ‘Sir, you know.’ And he said, ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation:’ ”
(Dan.7;25; Rev.7:12-17; 13:7; 14:12-13; 15:1-3; 20:4-6)

You said:
“We are the remnant of the woman that Satan is making war on…He is overcoming many Christians..Have you not heard of the Chrislam churches where the antichrist Koran is placed beside the Bible and Mohammed is taught in Sunday school. I am sure the Lord is puking them out of his mouth”…

Rebutle:
The remnant doesn’t appear until that last 3 1/2 years prior to Christ’s return, as Dan.7:25 makes clear stating that the saints are handed over to the beast for a time, times and a half a time, that is, one year, two years and half a year., totaling 3 1/2 years. The claim that you are making that the Koran being placed next to the bible in Sunday school is simply being applied by you as the fulfillment of that Scripture, but there is nothing in Scripture that would support that as being the meaning behind it. Again, these are the great tribulation saints (not the church) that the beast will be making war against and conquering. The way that he does this is because the saints will not worship him nor his image nor receive his mark and they willl keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. And because of their faith, they will be killed, ergo, he makes war against and conquers them. This calls for the patient endurance on the part of the saints.

You said:
“The only verse that supports a translation theory is 1 Thessalonians 4-17…Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rebutle:
Just FYI, 1 Thes.4:17 is not the only place where the catching away of the living in Christ is mentioned: as it is also revealed in 1 Cor.15:50-53.

“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–in a flash, int the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be reaised imperishable, and we will be changed.”

So here, paul brings out something that has previously not been known referred to as a “Mystery” and that mystery is that we will not all sleep, that is, we will not all be dead, but those who are still living will be changed where they stand and caught up with those dead in Christ who will have just been resurrected. Again I contend that the resurrection of the living and the dead of the church cannot take place when Jesus returns at the end of the age to set up his millennial kingdom because that would put the church through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which is the wrath of God of which we are not appointed to suffer.

You said:
“So join the fight….. Don’t plan on the translation vacation”

Rebutle:
I am already in the fight and have been for 40 years. Regarding the “Translation vacation” as you call it, this is what every living Christian should be anticipating and watching for, as it is part of our faith to anticipate him coming to take us back to the Father’s house. After Paul outlines the resurrection and catching away, he then says, “Therefore encourage each other with these words” He says this in order to comfort those who were concerned with those who had died that they would see them again in the resurrected and also to be comforted that those living at the time that the resurrection takes place would not have to worry about God’s coming wrath, for Paul says:

“While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them sudedenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkeness so that this day should suprise you like a thief.”

They, the unbelievers, those who reject Christ, will not escape, but we believe and are walking in him, will. You can fight the good fight and anticipate his promise of removing us from the earth at the same time you know, as It doesn’t have to be just one or the other. Furthermore, my faith is not based on when the resurrection and catching away takes place, but on the shed blood of Christ. So, even if we were to go through the wrath of God as you say, I would be prepared to go through whatever persecution or even death if that was the way that I was to glorify God. What will be taking place during that time will be God’s wrath and we will simply not be here for it.

So, I watch for the promise of His descending from heaven with the voice of the acrhangel and the trumpet call of God where we which remain and are still alive will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and will be caught up with the resurrected dead where we will be taken back to the Father’s house as promised in John 14:1-3.

We have been and are currently living in a time of freedom of faith, but that door is closing quickly. The proof is in the pudding as that say, for when persecution and the threat of death comes to those who have the testimony of Christ, then we will see who are the true son’s of God and who are not. For when persecution and death enter the mix, then the word of God says that, at that time many will turn away from the faith. We should all be praying that God would give us the strength to be prapared to go through persecution and death if that is our fate. We should have the same attitude as Shadrach, Meshach and Abedneggo who would rather be thrown into the blazing fire opposed to saving their own lives and sin against God.

Don
Sorry to jump in on your conversation. If you look at all the verses which have the word “hagios” in them, I think you will come to a quite different definition of who the “saints” are. Paul in particular is careful to distinguish the “saints” from the general assembly or the church. I know “alienated” could not see this distinction, but once you truly understand who they are revaltion 12 makes a lot more sense, and it does not nullify the pre trib rapture.

Almost forgot to say that Rev 12-9 says the dragon and his seven heads is called that OLD SERPENT.. IT is because he really was the same serpent that deceived Eve… 2 Corinthinans 11-3,4,14 shows we will be tempted with the same deception as Eves…Did not God say he declared the end from the beginning…
The two trees can be likened to the two gospels.. Christ’s Gospel and antichrist Koran gospel…IF you choose the wrong gospel you lose God’s spirit and become like Satan…Genesis 3-22….Cain is an example..He was a liar and a killer…

Is it a coincidence that God told Cain.. SIN LIETH AT THE DOOR…And The Bible proves Cain worshipped the astrology lore of which Sin the moon god was the door to the astrology heavens as proven by the Bible, archeology and history..
Jude 1-11..Woe unto them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. ….Balaam and Core tried to seduce the Jews with the astrology lore…The golden calf was symbol of the moon god sin…Jude says these WENT IN THE WAY OF CAIN…which shows Cain worshiped the astrology lore of which Sin the moon god was the door to the Heavens…This is counterfeit of Jesus who is the door…
.Please show me in scripture where Jesus bruised Satan’s head by his death….I do not think you can do it…

Genesis 3-15…And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. These seeds can also be as the two gospels…The gospel of Christ and the antichrist gospel of Satan ..Luke 8-11.. THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD…

The gospel of Christ bruise’s the serpents head…Hab 3-13. Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, [even] for salvation WITH thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering (exposing) the foundation unto the neck. Selah. The foundation is Mohammed-Ishmael… The Gospel of Christ exposes all the lies of Islam

Satan bruises the heel….
Remember our feet are CLAD WITH THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.. When we believe Koran lies our feet become unshod and turned out of the way..

Romans 16-20…And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
This verse is about those who feet remain shod with the Gospel of Christ..

Satan’s head is bruised under our feet specifically because our feet are shod with the Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of Christ exposes all the lies of Satan’s Islam…

Matthew 13 -35 through 40 is about the seed which is the word of God and Satan’s seed with is his version of the word of god…these seeds produces god’s children and Satan’s children..

I learned as a small child that all men are like Adam… Their understanding of good and evil is wrong.. Genesis 3-15.. Therefore when I sought truth.. I did not seek it from man, nor did I seek it from my own understanding.. I sought it from Jesus aid I waited until he revealed it.. Once he took maybe 30 years to answer a specific question…That question was concerning original sin…. But I had much to learn in order to understand the answer so it took 30 years before He answered me.. ..I always rely on Scripture, never on man to understand what God has written… I have found that people once they believe a lie from man cannot move on in their understanding of Scripture.. The lie impedes it…Like the lie or half truth.. That God was speaking to Jesus in 1-26….Not understanding this mystery stops people from understanding much in the Bible…..Again I say read Matthew 13-35 through40….Jesus tells us he is expounding the mystery sealed since the foundation of the world…and then HE expounds it…I still have much to learn… As do you…

dmcal
Since you believe you will be whisked away soon you probably do not know what or who antichrist was during the apostles lifetimes and who and what (they ) are today…
Since you won’t be here you have no need of this knowledge.. But I will give yo one scripture which identifies the antichrists of today.. It is 2 Corinthians 11, 4,14..Paul tells us that satan will come as an angel of light with another Gospel that teaches another Jesus and another Spirit…As John said this other Jesus will not be son of God and this other spirit will not be father … That should make it pretty simple if you want to find the identity..

Do you also understand that the beast of Rev 13…is satan’s kingdom.. Rev 16-10….It is a complete counterfeit of God’s kingdom.. The dragon and his seven heads are the counterfeit of God’s spirit… The beast is a counterfeit of the Christ….The earth beast also called false prophets are the congregation.. The earth beast are those who convince the world that the dragon beast is god..specifically the god of abraham…

Revelation 13-1 and revelations 20-8 shows that the beast is commmprised of the men who are numbered as the SAND of the sea..
Ishmael s descendants are numbered as the sand of the sea….
Rev 13-1 shows John is standing on thee SAND OF THE SEA…The broad way of Matthew 7 is built on SAND…Do you suppose God’s memory is so small he forgot about Ishame being numbered as the SAND OF THE SEA when John worte of these things..??
Another amazing coincidence is that antichrist denies Jesus is son of God and god is father as did Mohammed, koran and all muslims…

Revelation 1:19 reads, “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;” therefore since there is no mention whatsoever of any of the following narrative as being a history lesson, Revelation 12 can not be representative to that of the Christian church, neither then can the Male Child that is caught up to the throne, be representative to that of the Messiah either.
I believe that the Male Child is speaking of the 144,000 that are also caught up and referenced in Rev. 7. and Rev 14.
I believe that you, have completely left out the Covenant that God the Father has made with Israel and have taken “replacement theology” or “supersessionism” to its extreme.

Regarding the supposed “Sand of the Sea” connection that you attempt to correlate from Rev. 13:1 & 20:8. Rather laughable thanks.

In respects to the Rapture or catching away.
There ample scripture to substantiate this event. Please consider the following 50 points.

50 Evidences for a Pre-Trib Rapture.
Historical Doctrine of Imminence.

1. The early church believed in the imminence of the Lord’s return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.

2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.

3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.

4. The exhortation to be comforted by the “coming of the Lord” (1Thes 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.

5. We are exhorted to look for the “Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.

6. Again, we are to “purify ourselves” in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.

7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.

Nature of the Church

(Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)

8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

9. The church is “not appointed to wrath” (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the “great day of their wrath.”

10. The Church will not be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)

11. The church will be “kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world.” (Rev. 3:10)

12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)

14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)

15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.

16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.

17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.

18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.

The Work of the Holy Spirit

19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.

20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the “lawless one” is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.

21. The “falling away” in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as “the departure.” This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.

22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)

The Hermeneutical Argument

23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truely literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.

24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God’s dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming

25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.

26. The “four and twenty elders” in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.

27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.

28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).

29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.

30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.

31. The Judgment of Israel (Ez 20:34-38) occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.

Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.

33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

35. At the time of the rapture, the world is not judge for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.

36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.

37. The rapture is immanent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.

39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.

40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.

41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

The Nature of the Tribulation

42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the “great tribulation” and the tribulations in general which we all experience.

43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deut 4:29-30. Jer 30:4-11, Dan 9:24-27, Dan 12:1-2)

44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.

47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.

48. The Unity of Daniel’s 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.

49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by “The Lord Himself.”

50. Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come … He who testifieth of these things saith.

Be Blessed

PS. Marianne wouldn’t have had anything to do with your last name appearing above. That would have been something that you would have accomplished all on your own.

I see you have spent quite a bit of time and consideration trying to understand the Book of Revelations. I commend your efforts in trying to interpret and explain its’ contents.

I personally find the book quite confusing, almost like it was two visions combined into one. It’s use of allegory and metaphor only complicates its’ interpretation further. Unfortunately, I believe a complete understanding of its’ contents may have to wait until after the events it describes come to pass. However, there are enough interpretations out there that it seems that at least one must be right.
Perhaps it is yours.

Thanks.
But the Book itself is not what I would consider to be my forte. My area of interest is primarily focused upon the catching away, or Rapture, and I have way too much information regarding it to post here.

dmcal & Ruth,
Great discussion here. I agree with each of you on certain points but not others.
I Nothing you have shown here contains undebatable proof of your assertions, only assumptions.
Your first point:
Revelation 1:19 reads, “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;” therefore since there is no mention whatsoever of any of the following narrative as being a history lesson,
You are assuming that is being told that he is about to hear of things that “he has seen.” Did he not live at the time the Christian church was born? Didn’t he have a hand in it? Doesn’t Christ discuss the merits of the seven churches? Shouldn’t those churches know that Christianity has replaced Judaism? The message is appropriate, for then as now.
Your assertion does not stand up to close scrutiny. You say that the term “Hast seen” could not possibly refer to past events, and that is supposed to be used to refute the Mary/Christ interpretation of rev12. I have studied all of the scripture rapturists use to prove their theory and in every case I find these same kind of assumptions.
Of course, we all must make certain assumptions whoever we read the bible, but we all need to be aware of when we are doing so.
Now, we all know for sure there will be a second coming – Jesus has told us that many times. We do not need to prove it to any believer. But there is no verse in which Christ tells His followers that He will come twice – once to pick up His church and then again to rule the world.
Your only proof is that so-and-so said this, but so-and-so said that, or the Old Testament said such-and -such and the New Testament said such-and such, and because they didn’t use the same terminology, they must be describing different events. I suppose if someone wanted to they could support six or eight comings if they had a mind to.
As for me, if Jesus didn’t make it absolutely clear – like “I am canceling all the laws of God and all of His commandments” or “I am officially moving the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday” or “I will coming to earth twice, so be ready both times” then I’m going to make an assumption… don’t assume anything just to make a point.
Sorry Dude, but I think you’ve gone thru a lot of effort to “prove” something that will amount to nothing more than wishful thinking in the end. It would be nice if God would protect His people during the coming tribulation, but more often than not He tests His people. The flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Babylon captivity, and even Job and Jesus were tested individually – tempted by Satan himself. We will be tested as well. Jesus will not be returning to marry just any church. Certainly not the church that rides the beast – nor any of its harlot daughters. Remember, the true church is only a tiny remnant – one who “keeps the commandments of God” according to rev12. If that’s who will be raptured, hardly anyone would even notice. Not much to write about, really.
God will both test and protect His peeps. The majority of Christians will have the mark of the beast (they will not keep His commandments) and the remnant true church will be protected till the one and only second coming.

Now I freely admit to you that this is only an assumption on my part, (seeing as within the header itself, it is actually addressed to dmcal & Ruth), however, due to the content and what you state within it, I believe this to be instead, a rather rational and logical conclusion.

I attempt to utilize the same methodology to understand scripture. I read what is written, then investigate the passage(s) within their original text, with the hopes to ensure by what the definitions reveal, that how I understood them initially is indeed correct. I will also take into account all of the surrounding text as a further precaution to ensure that I maintain the correct context as well. Is this fool proof? Unfortunately I would have to say “no”.
However it is the most critical form of exegesis and hermeneutical study that I am aware of.

You say, “Your assertion does not stand up to close scrutiny.”

Well, to attempt to further prove the point that I elude to above, lets look at the very first verse itself.

Revelation 1:1.
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass ; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”

Again what has been translated as “must shortly come to pass” would indicate that the following information is future tense rather than having anything to do with the past. As well the word that was translated into English as “Revelation” is the Greek “ἀποκάλυψις” (or transliterated as “apokalypsis”) and its definitions are as follows;
“laying bare, making naked, a disclosure of truth, instruction, concerning things before unknown, used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all, manifestation, appearance.”

This word and its definition would clearly indicate that the whole of the following narrative would consist of the “revelation of things previously unknown”, and it is only within that context that the book of Revelation itself can begin to be understood.

Now lets combine this with what is written within verse 3.
“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of “this prophecy”, and keep those things which are written therein : “for the time is at hand.”

What has been translated as, “for the time is at hand.” would again indicate that the following is future tense, and the words translated as “of this prophecy” is the Greek “προφητεία” (or transliterated as “prophēteia”) and its primary definition is as follows; “a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events.”

Now lets combine the above with verse 19 again where Yeshua Himself states.
“Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;”

So within this one small chapter we have five (5) points of reference to take into consideration to derive the proper context of the whole of the book itself, and not one (1) of them would infer that any known history itself could possibly be contained within it.

Yet you propose that this is merely an assumption on my part?
If anything, I would propose to you, that since there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that history could be considered to be a part of this books content, (and to even consider the possibility appears to be contrary to scripture and what is written), that the true assumption would consist of assuming that “history” could be included.

In respects to your views regarding the rapture, you and I have gone back and forth about this before. To me it it clearly expressed as being obvious, and to you it is simply a non-event.
I hope that I will have the opportunity to say, “I told you so!” down the road. 🙂

You use the phrase “things that will shortly come to pass” to prove your point, yet nothing in the book came to pass “shortly.” Obviously, we have to take the words with a grain of salt. Just because Christ said He would show future events does not mean that He wouldn’t start a prophecy at the beginning, just to make it more clear to the reader.
Rev 12 starts with the birth of Christ and continues through the Holy Roman Empire (the woman in the wilderness for 1260 years) and to the end times. So it is a future prophecy, and the words Jesus used fit just fine.
I think we must be careful when interpreting prophecy. If we look too deep into the words and definitions we can distort the true meanings. There is a biblical context that must be applied when interpreting scriptures.
Like I said, Jesus never taught an early rapture and two second comings. The rapture theory comes from misinterpretations of discussions the apostles were having with their flocks. As you might expect, they used different descriptions of the same event which to different readers might seem like separate events, but there is really no logical reason to separate the descriptions.
I guess you could say I’m a skeptic. Marianne will verify that. I need more proof than just assumptions. I started out believing in the Antichrist, the rapture, the RFID chip, the New World Order, a 7-year tribulation (70th week of Daniel) and all the rest but have since learned that all of these things are false. Using logic and keeping an open mind I eventually rejected almost all of the “standard” interpretations.
I ended up with a simpler model that makes perfect sense without complicated and fantastic events having to unfold.
Of course, only time will tell and maybe we will still be blogging about it when it all goes down. Until then all we can do is discuss among ourselves and let the readers decide for themselves.
Bless…

It is funny how you didn’t bother to address any of the other examples that I provided for you, other than that one?

In respects to the Rapture you say, “Like I said, Jesus never taught an early rapture and two second comings.”

Well, Yeshua never taught anything regarding what is disclosed within the Book of Revelations when He was here either. Do we simply discard all of it then too?

How about if we look at this from a Jewish perspective?

(1) All the Spring Feasts were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming, and on the exact day of the feast. All the Fall Feasts picture the second advent, and the Feast of Trumpets is the first of the fall feasts, picturing the rapture.

(2) The Feast of Trumpets is when the “last trump” of the rapture of 1 Cor 15 is blown.

(3) The Feast of Trumpets is known as the Wedding of the Messiah, and the Church is the Bride of Christ, and the rapture is when the Church is caught up to heaven to be wed with Christ.

(4) The Feast of Trumpets happens on the “new moon”, which is 29.5 days after the last one, meaning it might occur on the 29th or 30th day, nobody knows for sure. “Of that day or hour no man knows” is an expression referring to this feast, and thus, the rapture.

(5) “Of that day or hour no man knows, but my Father only” is an expression used by a groom when asked when his wedding will be. He says this because it is his Father that will tell him when his preparations on the bridal chamber are completed and it is time. Again, the wedding pictures the rapture.

(6) The “Open Door” of the rapture in Matt 25, and Rev 3, & Rev 4:1 is a symbol of the Feast of Trumpets. [Ezek 46:1] “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days; but on the sabbath day it shall be opened and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

(7) We are told that the new moon and the Feasts of the Lord are a shadow of things to come in Col 2:16,17. Since the Feast of Trumpets is the only Feast of the Lord that falls on a new moon, we should take particular note of it.

(8) There are seven days of awe in between the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement. These picture the seven years of tribulation. Atonement pictures Satan being defeated and cast away at the end of tribulaion. If you add the two day Trumpets feast, and the day of atonement, the 7 days of awe are “ten days of tribulation” which may be referred to in Rev. 2:10.

(9) In the Jewish Wedding, a marriage takes place over a period of time known as the “bridal week”. During the bridal week, the groom and bride have sex in the bridal chamber. At the end of the week, there is a marriage supper. Compare Judges 14, Rev. 19, and Gen. Genesis 29:22-28 This bridal week will be the tribulation week on earth, while the bride of Christ is in heaven.

(10) In the Jewish Wedding, the groom comes for his bride “like a thief in the night” to take (size / rapture) her away and into the bridal chamber for the bridal week at his father’s house.

(11) The Feast of Trumpets is also known as the coronation of the Messiah, when he will start reigning as King, thus the beginning of the “Day of the Lord”, which includes the tribulation.

(12) It is also time for the bema judgment, or the judgement of the works of the righteous, and judgement must begin at the house of the Lord.
Jewish people in Israel and throughout the world observe Rosh HaShana. These are two Hebrew words that mean “the head of the months,” or New Year. In the Scriptures, this holy day is called the Feast of Trumpets, (or Yom Teruah) the great convocation. This was one of the seven feasts the Lord gave Israel in the 23rd chapter of Leviticus, the third book of Moses.

These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. Leviticus 23:4

In our Western culture, there are no holidays instituted by God. But Israel has at least these seven feasts designed and ordained by the Almighty, and they have been observed annually for some 1,500 years. These seven feasts were actually divided into three festival periods:

Passover, which included the three individual feasts of Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits, was in the first month of the year, that is in March-April.
Pentecost, (or Shavuot), was in the third month of the year, May-June, and is connected with the Omer count.
Tabernacles was the third period and fell in the seventh month of the year, our September-October, and includes the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles.

For these three festival periods, every Jewish man in Israel under the Mosaic Law was to leave his pursuits, his agriculture, and whatever else he was engaged in, and make the journey to Jerusalem to worship the Lord in His Temple. After each festival period, he would return home, taking up his pursuits again until the time he was to go back to Jerusalem for the next festival period.

The Feast of Trumpets

As we approach the fall of the year, we are about to start the season of the Tabernacles Festival. It begins with the Feast of Trumpets, (Rosh HaShanah, or the New Year). On the first day of the seventh month, which occurs sometime in our September-October, trumpets would be blown, and the Feast of Trumpets would occur:

And the Lord spoke unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Leviticus 23:23

On the first day of the seventh month, just as for Passover and Pentecost, Israelites would come from their businesses, from their agricultural work, from their various locations, and they would ascend the hills of Jerusalem. There would be a great blowing of the Shofar, the ram’s horn, by the priests on the wall of the Temple, and they would gather in Jerusalem to prepare for the important days ahead. It was a great convocation, a great coming together in Jerusalem. The harvests were over and had been laid aside in the storehouses. The approaching fall and winter were coming; it was a time of celebration in the Holy City.

In modern Judaism the Feast of Trumpets is not called that any more; it is called instead Rosh HaShana, “the head of the months,” but it still has the blowing of the trumpets. This is actually considered the beginning of the year in the Jewish calendar. Jews send New Year’s cards and wish for one another that they should be inscribed in God’s book of life for the next year.

The Days of Awe

Rosh HaShana, is the beginning of the Days of Awe, the ten days leading up to the Day of Atonement. In Rabbinic theology, it is during these ten days that God weighs every man in the balance his good deeds versus his evil deeds. Then God determines whether or not the person will be permitted to go through another year.

To the believer in our Messiah, the Lord Yeshua, the Feast of Trumpets has great prophetic significance. We are told in I Thessalonians 4:16, 17:

The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This event is known as the Rapture, the catching up. It is the time when the Lord will come for His own, when Jesus will descend and take those of us who have trusted in Him to be with Himself. It is imminent, it can happen at any moment; it can happen today, it can happen ten years from now. We do not know when it will be, but it could happen at any time. And so, the prophecy of the Feast of Trumpets will be fulfilled in the Rapture of the Church. It has not yet been fulfilled. We are still in the period between Pentecost and Trumpets in God’s prophetic calendar.

A Call for Regathering

The Feast of Trumpets not only has reference to the Rapture of the Church, but also has a prophetic reference to Israel. In Isaiah 27:12 and 13, the Lord promises Israel:

Ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel, and it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

There will be a time in the future when the Lord will blow a trumpet for Israel to be regathered back in the land, and so the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets will have to do with not only the calling of the Church to its home in glory, but also calling the Jewish people back to their home in the Land of Israel. We are seeing the beginnings of this even now. When the Lord blows the trumpet, the migrations back to Israel will be on an even greater scale than they are now, and will be complete.

Conclusion

The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh HaShana, New Year), then, both looks back to the ancient days of Israel’s past, and looks ahead to our Redeemer’s return. The blowing of the trumpet signifies the Rapture of the Church (composed of believing Jews and Gentiles of this age) to its home in Heaven, and the calling of Israel back to its home in the Promised Land.
God does not do things in vain, or without purpose. The Old Testament Holy Days were not just some sort of Divine make-work project to keep the Israelites busy while they were out wandering in the desert. All of the Old Testament Holy Days (Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, The Feast of Weeks, The Feast of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, The Festival of Tabernacles and the Last Day) were, and continue to be, living symbols of the stages of God”s Plan of Salvation for all humanity. Those events are now in progress, and true Christians are the manifestation of it.
Believe what you will.

I agree that Christ will return to fulfill the feast of trumpets and that the true church (remnant) will rise with the dead to meet Him in the air as He descends to fight the battle of Armageddon (which we will be protected from as we will have indestructible bodies by then. Ten days later Christ will take His earthly throne in Jerusalem and the day of atonement. (Rosh Hashonna will be moved back to the spring where God originally set it to in the Old Testament.) That will be the day of judgement when the wicked will be fed to the birds. After that the world will send its representatives to Jerusalem every year for the feast of tabernacles, and those nations not participating will be drought stricken for that year. All of this happens at the second coming, not 7 years before, when the so-called Antichrist takes power. There is no festival to be fulfilled by the secret rapture seven years before the last trump.
One return, one coronation/judgement day. 2 festivals fulfilled, 10 days apart, not 3 events over 7 years.
🙂

Well, I guess it all comes down to how one perceives God’s character to be, or as to how He has demonstrated that loving character in the past?

He removed Noah and his family from destruction. He removed Lot and his family from the same.
Yet if you wish to maintain the belief that God would decide to include those that already worship Him and His Son, and group them together with those that don’t to experience the same wrath, well there is nothing that I can do or say to change that.

Your belief is simply nonsensical to me, however you have the right to maintain it.

God did not exactly send Noah and his family on a picnic during the flood. He certainly did not take him to heaven. Lot was warned but not protected. His wife didn’t obey God’s instruction and was turned to salt. Not much protection there and I’m sure Lot was not exactly pleased with the outcome.
Like the three faithful Jews in Babylon, we will all be forced to go through the furnace in order to test our faith.
Why do you think that Satan will be loosed from his chains at the end of the millennium? God’s people will be tempted and tested. It will be the mark of the beast all over again.
And why have the mark of the beast in the first place? If all the faithful are gone, who’s to test? And why have a day of atonement after Jesus returns? The rapture would in itself be a judgement day.
And if the commandments were truly “nailed to the cross” with Jesus, then with the law gone, what is the criteria for judgement? Does every Christian get a free pass? All the mafia bosses were devout Catholics and they all believed in Christ, yet they killed on a whim. So I guess that is OK with God since thou shalt not kill is no longer on the books.
Talk about nonsensical! God would have to be a hypocrite if what you believe is true.
Several times in the Book of Revelation it says that the people who escape the mar are those who obey the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. So just believing is not enough, nor is just following the commandments but not believing in Jesus (e.g., the Jews).
God will be cleaning His house before the wedding takes place. Being faithful will not be enough. Babylon is everywhere in the church. I you go to church on Sunday, celebrate Christmas, Easter or Valentines day, or if you have a picture of Jesus or the virgin Mary on your bedroom wall (amongst dozens of other transgressions) you will be judged. Even the belief that you go to heaven or hell when you die is pagan. So why would God take billions of people there? Do you know how small his spaceship is?
Well anyway, there is still some time left. At some point you will realize that Jesus is not coming to rescue you. It will be like the Millerites’ “great disappointment” of 1844. They all believed Christ was returning on that date and gave away all their possessions they were so sure they were right. That event was prophesied by Daniel and is the subject of rev 10. (The little book that tasted sweet in my mouth but was bitter in my stomach). As most prophesy, it will be repeated in the near future.
I will pray for all of those future disappointed believers like yourself, that at that time you will see the light and the truth and be delivered thru the tribulation into eternal life.
Be blessed.

dmcal & Ruth,
Great discussion here. I agree with each of you on certain points. Dmcal is correct on the Catholic church being Babylon and not Islam or the Koran. The trouble with Christianity is from the inside, not from another religion.
Ruth is right about the woman (church) in Revelation 12 – it is the Christian church who Satan has persecuted and infiltrated ever since Christ was resurrected and took His place on the throne in heaven. The true (correct) church is just a tiny remnant of overall Christianity today – only those who keep the commandments and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
As for the sun and stars theories, I have heard the 12 stars representing the 12 tribes as well as the 12 apostles, and perhaps both is correct, since I believe rev 12 is all about the changing of God’s people from the Jews to the Christians thru the teachings of Jesus.
There is another explanation about the stars, sun and moon which is more literal, in a sense. It is possible that the stars (also) represent the constellations of the zodiac. In September-October, the constellation Virgo, the virgin is behind the sun.
Since Jesus was born on the feast of trumpets (end of Sept./Beginning of Oct,) by a virgin, the text describes a virgin, clothed in the sun giving birth to the messiah an the feast of trumpets. The moon could be represented as the new moon, in alignment with the sun and the stars of Virgo.
So if the astronomy is correct, then the interpretation of the woman as Mary/the Christian church makes the most sense. Being that Mary was a Jew, the 12 tribes fits as does the apostles and the constellations – a perfect fit.
If dmcal’s theory is correct, the astronomy is superfluous. I like to believe that God is more elegant in His prophecy.
Bless…

James, I’ve been reading more of your posts with a lop-sided grin. You are witty and frank. Appreciate your respect for the Sabbath.

Since you mentioned Apophis, were you aware that its nearest approach on Friday the 13th, is only a few weeks away from the highest resolution lunar eclipse of the 21st century?
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Having issues with the Mark:
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What Torah template foreshadows a Rev13 Mark?
Exo 13:16 And it shall be for a TOKEN upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Yehoshua in Revelation is the Aleph and the Tav. The Tav (completion of his works) is being done at the end of the ‘6th day'(6000yrs) in the Book of Revelation. The last thing an author, artist, or lawyer does upon completion of a work is to Sign his Name. The “X _______” appearing at the bottom of formal documents has its historical root in the Hebrew letter ‘Tav’. The Lord has always ‘marked his people’ but the grand finale of that is in Rev7 with the 144,000 marked. The Adversary in Rev13 is merely copying what is done in Rev7. Isn’t it fair that Satan gets to mark his own, to match Exodus13:16? This is to say; ‘by strength of hand the Adversary has brought the world INTO Egypt.’ (Egypt being a mammon based kingdom.) And since the best he is ever going to get is an EARTHLY KINGDOM, then his mark must be an earthly physical mark.
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Lastly I’d like to ask you what your feelings are about the Sagittarius-Teapot-asterism with regards to the first horseman, since he is a ‘bow-man on a horse’ which pours his “Tea” (same as shooting an arrow) into the galactic center, toward Scorpio where the “Great Red” Supergiant Antares is. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Teapot
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If I may just add to the above.
The word translated into English as “token” is the Hebrew “אות” transliterated as “’owth ”, Strong’s 226. Its definition consists of “a sign, or signal, a distinguishing mark. banner, remembrance, miraculous sign, omen, warning, token, ensign, standard, miracle, and proof.”
The question now would be, “Is this a literal, tangible, physical mark, or sign, or is it representative as a metaphor for “action” and “thought”? ”

Lets see shall we? …………..

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for “signs”, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Genesis 1:14. LITERAL.

And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a “mark” upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Genesis 4:15. LITERAL.

And God said , This is the “token” of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a “token” of a covenant between me and the earth. Genesis 9:12,13. LITERAL.

Again in referring to the rainbow;
And God said unto Noah, This is the “token” of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth. Genesis 9:17. LITERAL.

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a “token” of the covenant betwixt me and you. Genesis 17:11.
DEFINITELY LITERAL.

The Hebrew “אות”, or “’owth ”, is also utilized within the following verses of;
Exodus 3:12., 4:8,9., 4:30., 7:3., 8:23., 10:1,2., 12:13., 13:9., 13:16., 31:13., 31:17., All of which are literal and tangible signs.

Numbers 2:2., 14:11., 14:22., 16:38., 17:10. All of which are literal and tangible signs.

If one is interested, then one could continue on further in doing their own study.

As for the Apophis asteroid, if it is the wormwood event of Revelation, then any other factors are purely coincidental. Since Friday the 13th is a pagan superstition, it can have no biblical meaning. I’m not sure what you mean by “highest resolution” lunar eclipse, but if Apophis does strike the earth, no-one will be concerned with just another lunar eclipse. I don’t think anything as common as an eclipse will be a sign from God.
As for your zodiac analogy, it sounds like you are implying that the early nuclear tests were the first horsemen of the apocalypse. I believe thus will be the emergence of the false prophet which had not yet happened. The whole teapot scenario is a bit of a stretch. The constellation Sagittarius (half man, half horse) in greek mythology does not have a built-in teapot. There is a dipper-shaped group of stars (similar to the big and little dippers) that even I have used during star parties (I used to have a backyard observatory in high school) to help my friends to pick out the constellation and objects within it. I don’t believe God would use centaurs and teapots in His prophecy and as I said, the use of the term Operation Teapot is nothing but a coincidence. But it does illustrate the fact that there are a zillion ways to interpret prophecy if one is clever enough and has plenty of time to scour the internet for possible connections.
As for myself, I try to think biblical – what would Jesus do? What will God be doing to His church before the millennium?
We know there will be a judgement day – the day of atonement when Christ takes His throne and marries His bride. Sin and apostasy will be punished. Evil will be vanquished. This is Old Testament stuff. It will be Jeremiah revisited. Sure Christ died for our sins, but that doesn’t mean we can sin all we want after He returns. The commandments are still in effect. Jesus will still hold the seventh day as the Sabbath, despite the tradition of man and his churches.
The mark of the beast will be biblical in nature. It won’t be a tool of the banking institutions. Sure, you can make a case for it and I once bought into it, but it never seemed quite right to me. With more study, I was able to put all the pieces together in a more logical manner – one that fits perfectly with my understanding of how God will rule His kingdom on earth.
As for my take on the mark, I am working on an article for this site right now and I’m sure there will be a lot of discussion about it when Marianne posts it, so stay tuned for more on that topic. I will just say that I believe a sign, a seal and a mark are all the same thing, and God will seal the 144,000 in the forehead (mind) to protect them from the mark (hand or forehead) of the beast. God does not physically mark His people, tattoos are forbidden in Judaism, so this type of mark can not be seen except by God.
To me, it only makes sense that if the righteous are sealed invisibly, the sinners will also be marked invisibly. To those who try to prove that the mark must be visible I must remind them that a subdermal chip would not be a real mark as defined by linguists, so they must take some creative license to make it fit. So I don’t put too much faith into finding precise translations but instead try to understand what God is trying to tell us.Trying to think like God? Call it silly, but that’s my goal, and I’m sticking to it.
Bless…

“They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”

And the demonic beings who were let out of the Abyss said to one another, “Huh! I know that we are commanded to sting everyone except for those 144,000 who have God’s seal on their foreheads, but I can’t tell which ones they are because I don’t see any visible marks.”

“highest resolution” lunar eclipse: The proximity attributes of the orbits of the earth around sun, and moon around the earth, factor into lunar eclipse ‘resolution’, which causes most lunar eclipses to be muddy brown, and then some to be orange red, and then fewer still are blood red. The (Most BLOOD Red) “Umbra Magnitude” being greater than 1.83 occurs only about once a century. See http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEcat5/LE2001-2100.html Since God made Gen1:14 the moon for a sign and literally references it with regard to its redness in prophecy, then it is logical to carefully consider those very few lunar eclipses which are by far, the most blood red. The deeply blood red lunar eclipse that I mentioned occuring shortly after Apophis, will slip down below Israel’s horizon while at the peak of its redness, could be interpreted as ‘a sickle cutting off something’.

I understood you to believe the zodiac Virgo represents the Revelation 12 woman. Did I misunderstand? If Virgo, then why not Sagittarius?

Clarification: I was NOT suggesting that the 1st Horse went riding out in the 1950s by reason of Operation Teapot. Instead I was defining the reason for no arrow in his bow. Instead of an arrow, the centaur with bow in hand, goes forth conquering, and to conquer by pouring out Nuclear WMDs (not an arrow).

Regarding Sagittarius, Capricorn the Sea Goat immediately follows him, which would symbolize Satanic Goat Dominion during the remaining part of the Great Tribulation. Might as well also add in about Aries the Ram occuring at Spring Onset where the passover lamb is focused upon. I think it not accidental that Virgo (focusing on repentant purity of heart) leads into Tishri onset (Feast of Trumpets), and then turns into Libra (the scales of Justice) during the Day of Atonement.

Since the Rev13:17 mark is a prerequisite to any buying or selling, how could it be limited to blue laws only? Also, I do not understand why a subdermal chip would not be a real mark as defined by linguist.

John 14-26…But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

DOES ANYONE BELIEVE THIS SCRIPTURE..??? I DO…

THIS IS WHY i DO NOT rely on man’s interretation of Scripture nor on my own…
I am teachable precisely because I knew I did not know..and I had patience to wait until the Lord showed me and verified it and sometimes repeated the process..
I also knew I like all was in the image of Adam…Adam’s version of good and evil was exactly like the one who taught him good and evil.. i.e. satan…Gensis 3-22…Adam’s mindset is in conflict always with truth…

If the Lord cannot do a little thing like revealing truth then it is we who are hindering Him…

Jesus said I spoke in parables and without a parable did I speak to them, I showed the truth of these to my own…

It is possible that when the Bible speaks of the sun, moon and stars he was speaking of the forbidden religion of Deut 4-19…..These would no longer give light to people who depend on astrology AND LIKEWISE SOURCES ……As the astrology lore will be exposed and defeated even to the exposing the allah beast as the ancient moon god of astrology lore…

THE ASTROLOGY LORE BEGAN IN EDEN AND IT IS THE SATAN’S DELUSIONAL FOUNDING OF THE WORLD SYSTEM.. THE ENTIRE WORLD WORSHIPED THE ASTROLOGY GODS, ETC UNTIL GOD CALLED ABRAHAM OUT OF IT…
This deception is still on earth today via hinduism, japanese, chinese, and islam…etc
This is the WORLD that will end soon..The earth will stand forever… Satan’s astrology foundation of the world that began is gensis is ending very soon..

When the alarm clock goes off and I yawn stretching out my arms in the morning, then glance out the window at the sunrise for confirmation it does not mean I am worshipping the rising Sun. Likewise, if I glance down at a sundial to make sure I’m not late for an appointment, it is not worship. If I predict that the Sun is going to rise tomorrow morning at 6am, and by that prognostication decide that I had better go to sleep at 10pm to get enough rest, it is not divination. No, each of these are common sense.

In contrast, if I were to attempt to gain personal ‘good luck’ by birthday Horoscope calculations,
or submit my trust & affections unto the queen of heaven, Sirius, Sun, Moon, or constellations of Orion or Pleiades,
or counted my prosperity or lack thereof as being a result of such objects in the sky (whether by themselves or by their movements)
– Any of these would be idolatry, for I would have denied the sovereign God of heaven who made these temporary things.

Rom 1:20a For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made…
Ps 19:1b …The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork.

But to believe God created the star constellations, and told a story about himself and his master plan of redemption for humanity to Adam in the Garden of Eden, written on the canvas of heaven – This is not idolatry, but rather is acknowledging God who made all things as a testimony of himself. Constellations are the testimony of God written before language came into being. God has always left a testimony of himself, even to the scattered peoples of the far corners of the earth, who had no written language. The original story lost its clarity and became like that of a dream, but there was an original which at one time was perfect.

Personally, I will be glad when the heavens are rolled up like a scroll to be done away with, and there will no longer be a veil to cover our eyes, (such that currently requires the gift of prophecy). Study of knowledge is exhausting, but remains requisite to earthly mastery of any skill whereby one can serve God in greater measure. I look forward to that future Sabbath Rest, where all work comes to a close.
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Take Noah’s Flood for example. Cultures round the world speak of a flood and surviving on a boat long ago in the beginning. Sometimes the flood is worldwide, sometimes local, but a big flood and their own ancestors as sole survivors on a boat eons ago remains a common theme which we find the most complete details of in scripture.

Likewise, cultures round the world have variable astrology lore about the heavens, but there are common themes which render pictures confluent with God’s plan of salvation. Enough evidence exists for God’s original input, that to automatically dismiss it as Satan’s work is using poor judgment.

I personally believe Adam lived 930 years! And I believe Noah’s worldwide flood occurred 4300 years ago. And I believe there was a real garden of Eden, everything exactly as scripture details, including God creating the star constellations for unique signs of plan of Salvation.

The story of Esther details her Hebrew name changed from ‘Myrtle’ to ‘Star’, but we rarely ask about her uncle. Now Mordecai was a very righteous man, yet his name was commonly understood to mean: “worshipper of Mars.” Now why would a God-fearing Israelite name their son in such a way that it could potentially lead him into idolatry? Worshipping the pagan god of war is of course wrong. Yet when one considers the slaughter of the enemies at the end of the book, then it appears Mordecai literally became chief leader of a war uprising. There is a prophetic truth hidden in that Mordecai for both then and now.
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In Eden, these constellations existed and were known of. God made them right from the onset. Certainly Satan was there also to defile what God had made, but it does not exclude God from being the original author.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

If God intended to change his opinion about heavenly signs decreed in Genesis 1:14, then why did God himself choose to reference the star groups of Orion, Pleiades, Mazzaroth, & Arcturus when speaking to Job? Surely if these were a detestable thing of Satan, then God would not have made reference to them.

Job 38:31,32 Can you bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? v32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Of course just like scripture can be misinterpreted, so can constellations. And likewise, when we keep scripture in spite of cults, so should we also keep God’s plan written in the Stars. Most constellations are just pictures with a simple label, so we need not get stressed out about their existence.
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Any thoughts?

45squared, Yes a lot of thoughts because what you have said here is true and has been spoken of many times before. Unfortunately we live in an age where if you are secular you are raised in Leftist thoughts and teachings in Universities that no longer mind altering history or studies that do not placate leftist thought. We are also raised with ideas that must follow the main stream of the Theory of evolution which is unproven and just so, so that any archiologist discoveries that proves other than evolutionist theory is wantonly discarded throughout the earth. Your ideas on the stars is not new since the names themselves given have meaning from God that writes His story for mankind from Creation and since God is not subject to our space in time He saw and sees the Beginning from the End of our space/time on earth and in our Universe. This of course has nothing to do with worshipping the stars since it is called the study of the Stars, Astronomy and not Astrology. Your thoughts here are so dead on and we ourselves were taught this by Pastors and others long ago, early in our Christian walk. E.W. Bullinger wrote a book called ” The Witness of the Stars” which speaks of his studies of the ancient teaching of so many of the nations which he believed were a distortion of the truth taught in scripture and by Jews long ago who knew the stories of the names given to the constellations which declare the Glory of God not just to look at as pretty lights at night, but as a story and reminder of His Promises to mankind. This book is a wonderful read and study of what the original meanings of the names of the constellations were of the sin and deliverance of mankind and truly translate the scrliptural story in the Heavans. We seem to know and teach so little today of the great wisdom of God passed on to Adam and Enoch and Abraham and Moses and so many more. We are poorly educated today and I mean by this especially the Institutions that are so Liberalist they have lost their way in learning and wisdom by casting off the truth.

Through many years of study myself and what we were taught by Pastors, Rabbis, etc. we had realized that for the Wisemen to follow a star because they knew it guided to the promised Son of Man and Saviour had more to the story than we want to admit. I say again that this has nothing to do with the worship of stars or anything but the understanding of our Creator and His deep love for us all. This book writes much translation in the original Hebrew texts and shows us (with Bullingers help in scholarly skills) the story of the sin, salvations and deliverance and reign of Christ with mankind written in the stars. He was educated as I wish to be and will never be but he wrote a good deal of Hebrew translation for the layman like us to understand his. I have been learning much in my 39 year walk with the Lord, that His Kingdom on earth and in the Heavans is far greater than I had conceived and that He has worked in with mankinds folly and loss over 6000 year history many more understanding believers that freely share their faith, Jew and Christian that frees us all, if we wish, from the darkness and ignorance of the ages. Job 9:9, 38: 32, 26:13 ..they are so numerous the scriptures that speak of the names of the Constellations as if it was perfectly normal to discuss what few today wish to discuss except from scientific evaluations or astrological concourse to determine their day.

Your disclosure is quite apt and true to the scriptures reckoning. 45 squared.

Isaiah 40:26 : “Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by numbers; he calleth them all by names, by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.”

Darby Bible Translation
He counteth the number of the stars; he giveth names to them all.

Deut. 4-19…And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, [even] all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them,

They worship the host of heaven which are the fallen angels who invented the astrology worship..These claimed they were the sun god the moon god, etc…
I strongly suspect according to archeology and history that the moon god claimed he was the door to the astrology heavens and to the sun god…
Read Enoch and research the sun god and moon god of astrology.. These gods were the head of hundreds of pagan astrology gods…

The entire world without exception worshiped these astrology gods until god called abraham out of it and then untill Jesus came… much of the earth still practices this pagan worship…

Cain’s way was the same deceptive worship as korah (core) and balaam gave the Jews.-see jude. 11….. and this was of astrology worship of the baal gods …Cain like Islam throught the baal god was the real god… This is why god refused his offering…

Astrology was given to men by fallen angels.. It is original sin wisdom…

Genesis 1-14… the word SIGNS is spelled OWTH in Hebrew in this verse.. It means a mark or a sign… It is the exact same Hebrew word used for the MARK of CainGenesis 4-15…And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Mark in this verse also spelled OWTH. in Hebrew

It would appear Cain was marked with the sun, moon a……

The mark of the ancient astrology moon god was a crescent moon.. Archeology proves this..

I do not beleive God wrote anything in the stars…. He wrote what He had to say in his word…..

Astrolgy is dead wrong…The tower of Bable was of astrology worship….

Astrology is satan’s delusional counterfeit of the creation of the heavens…
As god said in Deut 4-19 IF YOU LOOK UP AND SEE THE SUN, MOON AND STARS AND HOST OF HEAVENS.. This shows us exactly how satan planted in the subconscious of man that he was the creator.. subliminal visual deception..
He said look up and see what I have made…..

In support of your thesis, there is strong evidence that the New Age Messiah Maitreya worships the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth as the ‘Moon god’. I agree with you that astrology, paganism, pantheism, and polytheism are error. And I agree with you that God sees them as error. And I agree with you that mankind has always been tempted by Satan to go astray into worshipping the creation instead of worship the blessed creator who made these things.

But just because there are pagans who do worship the moon, does not mean I should refuse to obey the Festival of Passover or refuse to obey the Festival of Sukkot just because they begin at the full moon. God himself created the heavenly bodies for a purpose. Misinterpret that purpose and you fall into sin. Correctly interpret that purpose and stay on the right track.

Furthermore the moon turning blood red appears several times in prophetic scripture in connection with God doing something major. If this is astrology, then scripture has astrology in it. I do not believe these scriptural blood moons spoken of by Jesus and the prophets are astrology. Do you believe Jesus was using astrology when he made mention of the sun and moon?Mat24:29, Mar13:24, & Lk21:25 (all three are repeats)

Everyone knows troth is an astrology god… The bible says the world will be deceived all but the elect …… all but the elect think allah is the god of Abraham.. He is not..He is in fact proven by history and archeology to be the same allah moon god of ancient arabia…..The ancient moon god was satan….He indwells those that follow Islam.. This is how the moon is turned into blood…The moon god indwelling his followers.. These are also clled the sons of perdition…

The madhi of Islam is what we call antichrist…. He fools the people….only the elect recognize him…
Think about it.. If you were antichrist and wanted to take over the world what position would you covet…THE PRESIDENCY OF USA????

The moon will never actually turn to blood… but the moon god will indwell the blood of men…
The sun being black as sackcloth
Psalms 69-11…I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.
Christians are clothed with the sun…..
It can be likened to a garment…. When these as Chrislam are doing turn from God they lose the garment of light and their garment becomes black as sackcloth…

Joel 2 is self explanatory… it tells how the great army cause sthe sun to be darkened and the moon turned to blood.. think army of Islam

Matthew 24-29 and mark 13-24…shows the sun and moon being darkened and then the stars faal from Heaven.. Read Rev 12 and see the stars that fall and are cast down to the earth.. This woman is Christianity.. She is clothed with the sun and the moon is under her feet… but one thrid of her falls for the dragon’s deceit… they are the chrislam church today…These will lose heir clothing of sun and will become indwelled by the dragon satan and his seven demons… Matthew 12-43,44,45 is about this indwelling in fallen christians…

AMERICA IS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE …We have the chief imam of islam sitting as president… He has proseltized Islam from day one…

(1) Ok, you and I are coming from very different backgrounds. You are the first person I have ever encountered who has admitted to knowing ANYTHING at all about troth, so I’m a little stunned when you say; “everyone knows troth is an astrology god.”

(2) Next, I’ve never heard of the word ‘Chrislam’ but assume by context you mean something like a blending of Christianity with Islam? Please clarify.

(3) If I were antichrist and wanted to take over the world, the president of the USA is NOT the position I would covet. The US president is little more than a corporate ‘public liaison’ who submits to the wishes of the true owners of the corporation, which(who) is(are) the chief stock holders who sit on the board of directors for the USA corporation. He does exactly as they tell him, or he will suffer the consequences of his insubordination. He is just a puppet held out in public view for everyone to see. The board of directors are the ones who got him elected by financing his political campaign to rise into that position. The man Obama has power, but not near the power you are ascribing to that office. Details to prove this could fill an entire thread…

If I were antichrist, I would much prefer to be head of the largest international organization on earth which is the United Nations. If not head of the UN, then I would want to be head of the world bank to fund my purposes. If not the world bank, then I would want to be head of the Quartet so as to preside over the dominate political military force in the world. If not over the Quartet then there are many other equally weighted possibilities ranging from the Pope to the head of Israel. But not the USA president. You overestimate his true power. Besides, his term will soon be over and only ‘maybe’ will he get another 4 years, and then he is GONE, to be replaced by yet another puppet in the long chain of pupputs like Bush, Clinton, Reagan, etc.

(4) Your explanation for the Rev12:4 third of the stars is different from ANYTHING I have ever heard. Traditional prophetic Christianity has always considered the ‘third of the stars OF HEAVEN’ to be the whole heavenly host of demonic spirits which are defined in Rev12:9 as Satan’s angels.

(5) Mat12:43-45 certainly is about a 7-fold increase in number of demons, but to say Satan is limited to having 7 chief demons is stretching it a bit too far.

(6) I agree that the USA is in serious trouble, but not exclusively from Obama proseltizing Islam. There are other matters more serious than this.

While I am not a paleo-astrologist and am only familiar with the modern origins of western constellations, I’m sure that they are not now nor have always had the same meaning in every culture. So trying to prove that prophecies in the Book of Revelation are related to any modern constellations is a moot point. A Christian in Japan or China for example could not draw any of the same conclusions you are trying to make here.
We all agree that God is not expecting us to look for astrological signs to foretell the future and I doubt that even the world’s best astrologers today could decipher exactly when the second coming will be and if they did, no true Christian would believe them.
While it may be possible that modern constellations tend to reflect bible prophecy, they are not necessary for true interpretation. And since any events in the stars and planets (conjunctions, risings, fallings, being on a cusp etc.) are purely astrological, we should not look to any of these for signs either.
As for eclipses and the blood-red moon, in this century there will be 228 lunar eclipses – more than two every year and the ones in 2029 (the year of Apophis) are really not much different from any others. I guarantee you that the human eye will see no difference between most total lunar eclipses. If you are expecting one eclipse in hundreds to be a sign from God, I’m afraid you and everyone else on earth are going to miss it. In addition, they only last a few hours so only a small portion of the planet can see any one eclipse, so who is God going to honor with the sign?
So you can look all you want at astronomical objects but I doubt that you will find anything useful in regard to prophecy there. People have been doing so for 2000 years and have only been disappointed.
Prophecy depicts that the sun, moon and stars will be darkened. This can not all be the result of eclipses, and certainly not seen everywhere and at the same time. So the events must take place on earth and merely affect our viewing of the heavens, like a volcanic eruption blocking out the sun, or a nuclear winter.
I have heard about “Chrislam” – a proposed blending of Christianity and Islam. Some preachers are claiming it will be the One-World religion many people believe is coming. Personally I don’t believe it will ever happen or is even possible. There will not be a New World Order, nor a one-world banking System, nor a single world religion. These are common misinterpretations as is the idea of a world dictator. A while ago people on this site were claiming that Bush was the Antichrist, and now Obama is the target. Who will be next, Newt Gingrich? No matter who gets in, someone will make a perfect case as to why he/she must be the Antichrist. Go figure.
I think all of this is due to an overblown exuberance to prove that the second coming is near. Everyone is looking for even the tiniest signs anywhere they can find them. This web site is littered with such possibilities and many people delight in speculating on these non-events so it makes for interesting but ultimately futile discussions.Perhaps were are in one of those right now.
🙂

Just an FYI, remember that these events are going to be caused directly by God and therefore these plagues do not require natural explanation. For example: at the 4th trumpet, the sun, moon and stars are darkened by a third so that they are only giving off two thirds of their natural light. Some have suggested that it is due to the air being polluted which is blocking out a third of the light, but that is not what the Scripture suggests, as it states that a third of the sun, moon and stars themselves are struck so that they are all darkened by a third. There is no natural occurance that could accomplish this and therefore, this would have to be performed by God himself.

I might also add that John has already shown in Scripture, the ability to differentiate between the sky being darkened opposed to the events that will be directly taking place to the actual bodies themselves as in the following example:

“When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss” (Rev.9:1–2)

If elected to US Presidency, how might Newt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich begin to be labeled as being the antichrist? Back in 1995 when Newt was Speaker of the House of Representatives, the bill H.R. 666 was introduced to the House. It is rumored that Newt was responsible for this bill. The bill would have overturned the 4th Amendment right to be safe in one’s home from search without a warrant, thus overturning it would permit forcible entry into any person’s home without getting a judges permission. Because I have no legal training, the language of the Bill is confusing to me. So if anyone wants to read the bill for themselves, here is the government link. http://www2.westwoodonline.edu/information/2col.asp?NavPageID=43388
Personally, I am neither for nor against Newt Gingrich, but am just passing information along the line…

Thanks for proving my point. No matter who is prez, people will come up with seemingly valid hypotheses to claim they are the Antichrist. Since they can’t all be right, they are more than likely all wrong. That is why I don’t pay attention to such nonsense.

To understand Joel 2-31 you must read the entire chapter. The first few verses shows what the darkness really means..It is when a fierce army of people cause the people to become a desolate wilderness… This is compared to the great deceptions in the Garden of Eden..
Joel 2-30 ..God says he will show great wonders in Heaven… These wonders in Heaven are in Revelation 12…Rev 12 wonders in heaven is about Christianity (woman) and the 7 headed dragon beast… The dragon causes one third of the church to fall indicated by the stars falling out of the woman’s crown and being cast to the earth…These are Chrislam.. The remnant of he womans seed, the remaining stars ar caught up into the wilderness where she gleans knowlege from the face of the serpent…Note this SEED OF THE WOMAN is the SEED OF THE WOMAN in Gensis 3-15 prophecy….

As for astrology in he past and today, the origin of astrology is from the fallen angels….. It is a perversion of the science of astronomy…Enoch records this in the book of Enoch…..The Bible also condemns astrology….
Astrology is dead wrong.then and now…

As I was reading these comments, something “popped” into my mind.
I sat here for a minute or two to mull it over, to see as to whether or not it perhaps had some viability?

Is there the possibility, that the Church as a body throughout the years, has made an error in its ideology and therefore also within its perspective, and we simply continue to run with it today?

Quite simply, what I am proposing is this;
The central focal point throughout the Tanakh is Jerusalem as an earthly city . As a city it is also central within the New Testament.
Yeshua was on the Mount of Olives when He was answering the disciple’s questions as to when and how the end of the age would come.

Is there the possibility that “these signs”, (which clearly could not be seen by the whole of the world at the same time), are only to be witnessed over the city of Jerusalem, rather than being some form of world wide event?

Pursuing Intellectual Integrity:
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The title of this thread; “Signs of the Sun and Moon before the Day of the Lord” includes the issue of timing, if for no other reason than Gen1:14 saying the sun and moon were made for timing. From a top down approach, we know from Mat24:32-34 that the ‘Israel fig tree’ of 1948 (or less likely 1967) + 80 years is an maximum time limit according to the Olivet Discourse (Jesus’ Major Sermon on the question of ‘When will the Great Tribulation come?’). This puts an upper limit timing range from 2028AD to 2047AD. So we need not look beyond that time frame.

Let birds be our teacher. Birds migrate annually north and south via intuition. Once the migration begins they keep going, but how do they correctly predict the seasons? And be so accurate year after year? Inborn genetic coding mixed with sensitivity, accurately interprets the whole basketful of atmospheric signs which they fly through every day. The whole flock perceives other flocks traveling, the shifts in the temperature, wind gusts, precipitation, and behavior of other creatures. No one single sign is overlooked. When the whole basket of signs takes a sudden shift, then all come into agreement and the migration begins. And those who correctly interpreted and obeyed are the ones who live long enough to continue their species.
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We should appreciate the incredible balance of our Sun-Earth-Moon relative sizes and radial orbits which allow for eclipses to take place at all, for the odds of this occurring by random evolutionary chance is very, very small. Also, we should acknowledge the uniqueness of Earth’s atmosphere which is what causes the redness of the blood moon eclipses, for this also is very, very unusual. God created this perfect balance of size and distance between the three, so that he could point to it as a prophetic sign given to humanity as an excellent gift, one that can be calculated. This eclipse phenomena GIFT is no different than God’s implanting into birds the ability to know which direction North and South is so that they migrate in the correct direction.

There are 228 lunar eclipses this century. Sun-Earth-Moon alignments which allow eclipses occur in a repetitive cyclic pattern of 173.3 days. Most of the time it is a poor alignment where there are only two eclipses, but at other times the alignment is so good that three eclipses occur inside of 30 days. Every 173 days there are always either 2 or 3 eclipses within 30 days, never more never less. These latter ‘eclipse triplets’ can be either Sun-Moon-Sun or Moon-Sun-Moon, and the center eclipse is always the best quality. When the Moon is the center of the triplet, this is where we get the higher quality Blood Moon visual dynamic. So from the 228 LE this century, we are down to one of these Blood Moon lunar eclipses occurring every 5 to 7 years. Between now in 2012 and 2047, there are only 7 lunar eclipses worth considering with regard to scripture. So we can quickly eliminate 220 lunar eclipses with great ease.

1.70UM – 06.15.2011 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEplot/LEplot2001/LE2011Jun15T.pdf – Visible from Israel middle of the night
1.61UM – 07.27.2018 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEplot/LEplot2001/LE2018Jul27T.pdf – Visible from Israel middle of the night
1.41UM – 05.16.2022 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEplot/LEplot2001/LE2022May16T.pdf – Visible from Israel dips below horizon just before sunrise
1.84UM – 06.26.2029 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEplot/LEplot2001/LE2029Jun26T.pdf – Visible from Israel dips below horizon just before sunrise
1.45UM – 08.07.2036 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEplot/LEplot2001/LE2036Aug07T.pdf – Visible from Israel ~3hrs before sunrise
1.53UM – 05.26.2040 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEplot/LEplot2001/LE2040May26T.pdf – Not visible from Israel
1.40UM – 11.18.2040 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEplot/LEplot2001/LE2040Nov18T.pdf – Visible in Israel middle of the night
1.75UM – 07.07.2047 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEplot/LEplot2001/LE2047Jul07T.pdf – Not visible from Israel
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This small section is only for JG:
I know you believe that all the pieces must fit together and I agree with that. You also know the Sabbath is centrally important to God’s plan. The sevens of God are all thru scripture, and are rooted in his 7-fold spirit. Likewise there are other numbers with occur repetitively. Goto astronomy resources and check out the occultation which occurred (exclusively over the USA) on 9.10.2001, the day before 911. Then consider for a moment that Apophis comes just before the best lunar eclipse of the century in the 29.5th year of the millennium. Then consider the 29.5 day orbit upon which that eclipse is dependant. Then consider the 29th Book, middle chapter, 10th verse. Then read about the 7-fold voice of the Lord in Psalm 29. Then consider the 29.5 year orbit of Saturn, after which the Sabbath day of the week is named. And then afterwards, you (thinking like God) ask yourself what method would best communicate to humanity to get their attention (by using the Gen1:14 tool(s) you designed for such a purpose). What better way could there be to get the message across to the humble, than this? (and get the message across in such a way that its interpretation could not become corrupted by demonic tampering) What message do I speak of? The message of the onset of the Great Sabbath Rest, of course! Sabbath Rest is very, very dear to the heart of God. The bible talks about it from cover to cover.
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Apophis (named after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep ) comes modestly near earth every 7 to 8 years. Apophis is the only NEO (Near Earth Object) of significance (of the great many NEOs known) which has the slightest chance of hitting earth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis That 4.13.2029 Friday the 13th near approach to earth will come within 0.3 of the distance between the earth and moon, thus it will come inside of the belt of some geosynchronous satellites. Thus it is possible that even if it does not hit earth, it potentially could hit or disturb the orbit of one or more satellites, knocking them out of orbit. Apparently there is enough government fear over this object that it truly might hit earth in its 2029 close approach, that it is suppressed by NASA as we can see http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/risk/a99942.html The page should list every near approach of Apophis beginning with the year 2013, but it begins with 2036 for some reason.

For what its worth (and I know this is a little far out there), the Messianic Jew Nostradamus warned of a great mountain which would strike earth, which he described as being 7 stadia round, whatever that means. By near approaches to earth Apophis comes close every 7 – 8 years, but by spherical circumference Apophis is estimated to be between 4 to 7 ‘greek stadia’ round. Everyone know Nostradamus practiced in the occult, so don’t give me a hard time about this, for I am only mentioning a reference point, not to imply that he or his works are worth leaning on. ( I just found it interesting that Apophis seems to fit Nostradamus’ description coupled with the uniqueness of Apophis over all other NEOs of the 21st century. )
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The Rev8:12 darkening of the heavenly lights could be interpreted as a third of the equatorial pie of earth being turned off. That is to say, if no one from the North and South Americas could look up and see the heavens (because of opaque cloud cover) then that ~hemispheric third of the earth would be darkened both in the day and night during every single daily earth rotation. If such a phenomena were to transpire early in the 3.5 years, then the upper atmospheric jet stream would disperse that cloud over the whole earth in time.

Mat24:29 says that AFTER the 3.5 years are finished, a darkness will cover the whole earth, so it raises the question: If the tribulation has ended, then why are there ominous manifestations continuing to on the earth? This is an important question because it helps us to seek God’s exact definition to Great Tribulation, rather than just throwing darts at a target while being blindfolded.
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JG mentioned “western constellations”. The only eastern astrology I’m aware of is the Asian (both Chinese and Japanese) 12 year calendar. Apparently they assign a sign to each year, which repeats every 12 years. The only one that I know of that has presented a problematic pattern in recent history is the ‘Year of the Snake’ which presented itself as follows: 1917, 1929, 1941(Japanese attack Pearl Harbor), 1953(Korean War), 1965, 1977, 1989, 2001(USA 911), 2013(nothing?), 2025(nothing?), 2037(nothing?).
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The question has been asked: “Where is the New World Order?” with the implication that if it were here, everyone would know what it is if it is a fulfillment of some part of biblical prophesy. It is a good question worth addressing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order_(politics) discusses the subject matter. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_annuit_coeptis_novus_ordo_seclorum_and_e_pluribus_unum_mean tells of that curiously odd phrase printed on the smallest unit of USA currency. The worldwide circulation of this money, plus the US presidents using the phrase “New World Order” in their public speeches (see YouTube videos of Bush and Clinton speaking such), are both validating enough that we can safely assume that political leaders are so boldly confident of the N.W.O. that we can automatically throw out conspiracy theory, for the basket of worldwide evidence is well known. The question remains: How does one define NWO? For it cannot be stated by JG or 45(myself) that the N.W.O. is or is not here unless one defines what NWO is! The progressive unionization of continents: Unionization of Europe 1993, Unionization of Africa 2002, & Unionization of South America 2008 coupled with the movement toward Unionization of North America qualify as the New World Order. While http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_bank carries the title “World Bank”, the real world bank is the IMF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund which currently is embraced by 187 nations, qualifying it as a ‘One World Bank.’ Then we have a One World Police force Inter(national)Pol(ice) embracing 190 nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol Next we have the United Nations which embraces 193 nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_nations Next we have the internet and worldwide web that goes into all of these same ~190 nations. So to me it looks like pretty much all of the nations of the world have singularity of the UN, Police, Bank, and Web. How m