Protesters demonstrate in opposition of the ongoing Israeli military operation on the Gaza strip, in Friday, July 18, 2014, in Philadelphia. Israeli troops pushed into Gaza on Friday in a ground offensive that officials said could last up to two weeks as the prime minister ordered the military to prepare for a “significantly” wider campaign.

PRINCETON, NJ — Americans are divided in their views of whether Israel’s actions against the Palestinian group Hamas is “mostly justified” or “mostly unjustified,” but they widely view Hamas’ actions as mostly unjustified. Those results are similar to what Gallup measured 12 years ago during another period of heightened Israeli-Palestinian violence, and they are consistent with Americans’ generally more positive views of the Israelis than of the Palestinians.

The latest escalation of violence in the Middle East occurred after the militant Palestinian group Hamas captured and killed three Israeli students and a Palestinian teen was subsequently murdered in an alleged revenge killing. The tensions erupted into bombings, missile attacks, and armed conflict. The two sides have not agreed to a cease-fire so far despite the international community’s efforts to end the fighting.

Americans do not view the current round of violence as substantially worse than the 2002 fighting, when Israel invaded areas under Palestinian control while Palestinian suicide bombers targeted Israel. A separate question in the new July 22-23 Gallup poll underscores the finding that Americans’ see the current round of fighting as no worse than usual: 45% of Americans say the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict is “more serious than past conflicts between them,” 43% about as serious as past conflicts, and 3% as “less serious.”

Republicans See Israel’s Actions as Justified; Democrats Disagree

There are not substantial differences across major demographic and attitudinal subgroups as to whether Hamas’ actions are justified; significant majorities of all major subgroups say what Hamas is doing is unjustified. However, there are significant differences in opinions of Israel’s actions by subgroup.

Consistent with Republicans’ more pro-Israel outlook, the majority of Republican identifiers back what Israel is doing. Meanwhile, Democrats take the opposing view, with nearly half saying Israel’s actions are unjustified.

Other subgroup differences may stem from the basic party divisions. Men, older Americans, and whites are more likely than women, younger Americans, and nonwhites to say Israel’s actions are justified. Although Americans with postgraduate education tend to be politically Democratic, they are the most likely education group to endorse Israel’s actions.

A majority of Americans interviewed July 22-23 say they are following news of the conflict very (22%) or somewhat (37%) closely. The more closely Americans are following the news about the Middle East situation, the more likely they are to think Israel’s actions are justified.

There are not large partisan differences in terms of whether the current round of violence is more serious than in the past. However, 65% of those following the story very closely, and 54% following it somewhat closely, say the current conflict is more serious than past Israeli-Palestinian fighting.

Americans continue to exhibit more positivity toward Israel than the Palestinians, but also stop short of saying Israel’s actions in the current situation are justified.

At this point, more than two weeks into the conflict, it is not clear how long the increased violence will continue, as efforts to broker a cease-fire have been unsuccessful.

Survey Methods

Results for this Gallup poll are based on telephone interviews conducted July 22-23, 2014, on the Gallup Daily tracking survey, with a random sample of 1,016 adults, aged 18 and older, living in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia.

For results based on the total sample of national adults, the margin of sampling error is ±4 percentage points at the 95% confidence level.

Interviews are conducted with respondents on landline telephones and cellular phones, with interviews conducted in Spanish for respondents who are primarily Spanish-speaking. Each sample of national adults includes a minimum quota of 50% cellphone respondents and 50% landline respondents, with additional minimum quotas by time zone within region. Landline and cellular telephone numbers are selected using random-digit-dial methods. Landline respondents are chosen at random within each household on the basis of which member had the most recent birthday.

Samples are weighted to correct for unequal selection probability, nonresponse, and double coverage of landline and cell users in the two sampling frames. They are also weighted to match the national demographics of gender, age, race, Hispanic ethnicity, education, region, population density, and phone status (cellphone only/landline only/both, and cellphone mostly). Demographic weighting targets are based on the most recent Current Population Survey figures for the aged 18 and older U.S. population. Phone status targets are based on the most recent National Health Interview Survey. Population density targets are based on the most recent U.S. census. All reported margins of sampling error include the computed design effects for weighting.

In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.

It’s extremely peculiar that postgrads support Israel more. That makes the US absolutely unique in the entire world – everywhere else, when people are educated about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, they become much more sympathetic to the Palestinians than the Israelis. Which is actually pretty logical, since the Palestinians have a much, much better case than the Israelis. This is a peculiarity of the US situation that really bears investigation and, as I said, is extremely surprising and peculiar. Why would educated Americans be so out of step with the rest of the educated world on this issue, especially if their views are driven by the facts?

Urimk

Polls’ conclusion:
As people educates more generally or on this spesific topic, they usually support Israel more than they used to.
(and if you want an explanation for why do women or nonwhite people support Israel less than males or whites, it seems pretty understandable for me, as Israel is the stronger side (by power) in this, and females or nonwhite people can relate to that hard feeling that the other side is superior, and they are right, we all deserve equality, sometimes it’s just no possible, for “technical reason”)
I do know that Americans support Israel more than most other countries, but It’s releaving to see how the it changes in the same country by those groups.

Now, I do not say Israel is the good side and Palestine is the bad, both make justified moves and unjustified moves, and each person can decide which are justified and which are not for theirself.
But what I think is not justified at all is what some call “anti israel propaganda”, and they fact that a lot of people put much effort in this, and they succeed very well. spreading lies and hate, and people, and people believe those stuff. The internet, as a platform you can just share most your thoughts without getting into trouble, is an example of how ‘brainwashed’ people can be. One of the most common example is that the Israeli people often called murderers of innocents. innocents were killed, and I bet the numbers are not that low, but do you really think Israelis just kill for the fun? you really think they are such monsters? well, I can tell you that there is an IDF solider that killed a terrorist, who is now in jail as far as I know, because he didn’t neutralized the terrorist instead, and other terrorist that have been injured in the “neutralization process” are sent to our hospitals (before prosecution). and if you think those are lies, that just shows you are brainwashed,
If Israelis are such monsters, murderers, (some may say even Nazis), how come there’s no country to deal with it with an effective act? no, the world isn’t careless, it just seems to be hard to believe Israelis are killing people without caring. and if you think they do, how do you know that? you read the Israely pilot’s minds? do you actually think they are sent to bomb your schools randomly? if so, that’s really sad to hear.
Anyways there are endless things I can say of this topic, and I think that if Palestinian leaders would stick to find how to figure this situation out with Israel, and not winning Israel with false claims, that would be easier. because for unknown reason, there are a lot of people that believe you false claims, but they won’t break Israel that way.

(I already regretted writting all of this in the middle, and not because I’m inscure with what I say, just because online debating doesn’t help in any way or form, you just feel you have to write your opinion, but it really won’t do anything, and I fell for that, but I never stop on the middle of things)

The anti Israeli publicity on part of the main stream media–who will ape ANYTHING Obama favors–is the reason that younger people who have no other media experience are anti Israel. It is tragic as all Israel wants to survive. As if ANYTHING Israel could do would assuage the Palestinians.

Basiclife1

No… It’s the fact that Israel is completely unthreatened by homemade rockets while using them as a justification for slaughtering thousands of civilians.

They probably also realise that Israel’s never-ending land grab is nothing more than an avaricious provocation.

leetabin

Your assertions are so at variance with facts that it is hardly worth educating you. What LAND HAS ISRAEL GRABBED? They gave back Sinai, Gaza, and part of Lebenon. They are only country asked to return land won in DEFENSIVE WAR!!!!

Basiclife1

Pro tip: When you’re standing on your own land, killing someone who comes to take it from you is defense.

When you’re standing on someone else’s land, killing them so you can build new settlements and move your own people in, that’s what we call offense.

Yes, they gave back some of the land they’ve taken. Bully for them, what about the rest of it? Better yet, ask any Israeli where the borders of Israel are and see what answers you get…

I am very surprised how much american people support Palestine though the Jews their whole wall street and central banks.This clearly prove how liberal they are and they are the best nation excluding the Jews residing in america and the stupid middle-eastern radical Muslims should be aware of that.

Who are easily led. Because they’re too lazy to read their Bibles everyday, they believe anything that sounds good. Like the restoration of israel in 1948. All the jew-owned media and the jew-owned “christian” ministries continually beat us over the head with this fallacy. In the Bible, the LORD’s not referring to a physical restoration of Israel, but a spiritual restoration. We Christians are the embodiment of that restoration.

“One of the clearest and most monumental Old Testament prophecies regarding the restoration of the tabernacle may be found in Amos 9:11-12; and in Acts 15:14-17 James clearly teaches that THIS PASSAGE IS BEING FULFILLED IN THE SPREADING OF THE GOSPEL TO THE GENTILES so in sum yes, the bible prophesies of a restored Jewish nation and temple, but then goes on to teach that THIS PROPHECY WAS FULFILLED BY JESUS’ BECOMING THE TRUE AND FINAL TEMPLE OF GOD, and subsequently in his making his people a holy temple in the Lord, where God’s presence might dwell among them, even today.”

Netanyahu’s Opinion of Christian Zionists : “My opinion of Christian Zionists? They’re scum. But don’t tell them that. We need all the useful idiots we can get right now.” – Israeli Binyamin “Bibi” Netanyahu

Truthmonger.info: When you get tired of kicking at the goads.

Gannon Sloves

People with common sense support Israel and people with over-whelming ignorance support the so called “State of Palestine”.

Basiclife1

Yes, because why put forward a rational argument when you can just sling around insults and pretend you know what you’re talking about…

angela

US supports Israel at the cost of US tax dollars 14 million a day, every day, all year, every year. It is non-stop. This dominating force has got to stop. America, the greatest country in the world has to gain independence from Israel (the smallest and most powerful in the world). Don’t kid yourself. Size does not matter.

Palichamp

Zionist-owned US media ALWAYS portrays Israel as victim, when FACTS prove otherwise. This article states “The latest escalation of violence in the Middle East occurred after the militant Palestinian group Hamas captured and killed three Israeli students and a Palestinian teen was subsequently murdered in an alleged revenge killing.” without mentioning the hundreds of murders, kidnappings and home demolitions carried out by Palestine’s illegal Israeli occupiers annually.
Israel is the aggressor state. European Jewish terrorists invaded Palestine and chased nearly a million people from their homes to illicitly spawn Israel, and Israel has been expanding its yet-undeclared borders on stolen land ever since. Its as simple as that.

Urimk

I see that, it does seems simple.
That’s wierd that no country dealt with it… if they just saw what you wrote over here, with capitalizing the word facts, they would probably already do something about it.

Oh and by the way, If this articale made you angry since it shows support to Israel, you don’t need to worry, there are so many other articles that support Palestine, it wil l probably improve your mood.

no hate

DO NOT PUT LOYALTY ABOVE TRUTH. IT IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF EVIL

To date Hamas has managed to kill mere 60+ Israelis, and that’s despite Israelis being in Gaza. So this excuse that Hamas poses an existential threat to Israel is a joke and only your blind loyalty prevents you from looking at facts. The facts are that destroying power plants, destroying water treatment plants, destroying hospitals, bombing sleeping children at UN safe sites where IDF knows refugees are seeking refuge, flattening high rise because in the 3rd story there is a hamas dude, is not a war against Hamas but against the 1.8 million civilians. Clearly Israel wants Hamas to stay very much alive and only weaken the people as the real existential threat to radical Israeli leaders is not Hamas but a thriving Palestine and the non-submissiveness that goes with it. If Israel was any other country, not a single American and not a single Jew would be pro-Israel.

no hate

Those who follow the news closely tend to be more supportive of israel – Not surprising. US media is very biased towards Israel and does not even deny it.

Jonah Stern

This poll also shows the people with higher levels of education and who follow the conflict more closely OVERWHELMINGLY support Israel.

Hm…. 😉

radarcontact

I’m highly educated, and I don’t support Israel’s actions at all. Neither do most of my friends, many of whom are Jewish.

Jonah Stern

Good for you. So am I and almost all of my friends (many of whom are Jewish many of whom, if not and most of whom, attended Ivy League universities or equivalents), and both i and the majority of my friends DO support Israel. Both I and many of them also happen to follow the conflict closely and regularly discuss it.

I also happen to be a young person (as are most of my friends) and I strongly support Israel as do most of them.

Edit: We’re also almost all Democrats, and we STILL all support Israel!

And none of that matters anyone because I was referring to this poll, not you or me or anybody here specifically. Look at the poll, you don’t even need to be highly-educated or closely-follow the conflict to understand it!

Nadia

Do you even know about the occupation? Clearly your not following the conflict close enough. You watch corporate media and you think your getting real news and that you’re well informed? lol Just look at the death toll and human rights violations by Israel. Tell me the Palestinians are getting treated fairly. 77 UN rights violations by Israel, the leading human rights violator in the world. Arresting and torturing children and bombing UN shelters. You must be proud to support them. You act like your civilized but your just ignorant. And the many Israeli organizations invest thousands of dollars and collaborate with the powerful members of universities. They have entire organizations to push the pro-Israel perspective in universities and to punish anyone who goes against their viewpoint. Scholars have gotten their classes canceled or even kicked out for speaking against the actions of Israel. This makes it hard to introduce an alternative perspective to students. You pay 40,000 a year and think your better than someone else who works hard everyday because your rich parents paid for your education? I read news from israel as well as news from the OCCUPIED territories. And, many times, the Israel newspapers talk about the occupation and the facts more than the American media. And often, the Israel newspapers confirm arguments in favor for the Palestinians.

Jonah Stern

I am well aware of all of the available reputable information about this conflict. I get very little of my information from “corporate media” and base my opinions on the rawest available information (obtained generally through the most objective possible sources like Wikipedia).

The death toll is tragic yet misleading. The fact that Israel values life while the Palestinians openly teach their children from a young age to martyr themselves and fight to the death against Israel plays a large role. Also, the fact that Israel protects its citizens while Hamas fights from densely-populated areas in a region filled with huge swaths of desert and farmland (contrary to the myth that Gaza is “one of the densest places in the world”–a complete fabrication by almost every standard) plays a large part. Also, the death toll from the conflict as a whole is pretty tiny compared to almost every other conflict in the world. Over the past 66 years, somewhere around 20,000 people have died on both sides. 41% of Palestinian deaths were known militants, 94% were male. Many of the alleged civilians were likely informal militants since they do not wear uniforms. Children and women are also extremely underrepresented among the dead. The same is true of the casualties in the most recent conflict (where most of the casualties were males aged 18-30). Also, keep in mind that “children” (who make up 50% of Gaza’s population) includes people up to the age of 15, who are easily within Hamas’ designation of military age.

The UN violations are a joke and everybody who has done even the most basic research knows this. The UN “condemns” Israel for fighting against Hamas. It “condemns” Israel for the actions of individual citizens that have no connection to the government and are openly condemned by Israeli leaders. Meanwhile, actual genocides and humanitarian crises are and have occurred around the world that receive little to zero condemnations from the UN.

Palestinians in Gaza have a longer life expectancy than Palestinians and other Arabs in most Middle Eastern and North African countries. They have better access to healthcare. They have among the highest obesity rates in the world. Their population has exploded pretty much since the Jews began arriving in the late 19th century but especially over the past 30 years. Most of the unfortunate circumstances in the territories (which are often better than those of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries) are direct results of violence against Israel and Israeli civilians. Unemployment rates and the blockade are the results of Israel’s security measures taken after the Second Intifada and the smuggling in of weapons by Hamas.

Liberal academia is overwhelmingly anti-Israel despite the fact that Jews are insanely over-represented. This is well documented and the liberal academic community is disturbingly one of the most anti-Israel demographics.

And no, my parents are not wealthy (also not poor). But I did go to my Ivy League university for free. Also, almost all private universities are as expensive regardless of the quality of education, or the intellectual capabilities of students and professors. The only people who I think I am “better” than are those who actually are ignorant (as you seem to be regardless of how many newspapers you claim to read) and draw conclusions based on oversimplifications, prejudice, and obscene double-standards.

And actually, according to studies, the Western media coverage (despite the Zionist conspiracy theories–even though most Western media is NOT owned by Jews) is overwhelmingly biased in favor of the Palestinians in terms of the words that are most often used and the general sentiments expressed. Thankfully, as is usually the case, the more information that is revealed, the more it becomes clear that Hamas is composed of cowardly, lying, terrorists who are only successful in their (cartoonish) propaganda that only the most naive and ignorant could actually believe.

Also learn the difference between “you’re” and “your.” Basic grammar helps strengthen the appearance of your argument, no matter how childish it might be.

TheHowitzer9 .

Israel values life by committing awful war crimes, killing hundreds of times more than the Palestinians, using white phosphorous and attacking allies and the UN? The Likud openly denies the legitimacy of Palestinians and Netanyahu says he will never allow a Palestinian state. He also views Arab Israelis as enemies and virtually every country in the world recognizes Israel’s crimes. Israel gets to illegally claim land, not unlike the Nazis. Something no other country gets to do. The UN condems Hamas as much as it does the Likud, but that’s not good enough for Zionists. For Zionists it’s their way or the highway. Enough. The U.S. is now washing it’s hands of Israel, Hasbara/IDF-drone.

leetabin

War crimes is defending themselves

Humanity Hannity

If you follow the “conflict” closely as you claim, and yet stil support Israel, then any reasonably sane person must conclude that you are all either educationally subnormal, morally or intellectually bankrupt, or you need to re-evaluate the source of your news.

Jonah Stern

Wow, that was a very dignified comment. “Educationally subnormal?” Does that include an Ivy League education? Morally or intellectually bankrupt? Does that mean valuing life, peace, and truth?

If you follow the conflict at all beyond ridiculous “news” sources that skew the information enough to warrant such a comment, then you would know how absurd you sound.

My main news sources on this conflict are unfortunately pretty anti-Israel (mostly Vice, and occasionally others I guess), but I get my actual information from Wikipedia (as in the most reliable source available in the world and the only one that aggregates information from numerous credible sources), and I draw my conclusions or base my opinions on the historical/contemporary events, the statistical data, and general knowledge about Israel/Jews, the Palestinian Arabs, the conflict, and the land; not the opinions of some journalists or writers.

I assume you didn’t actually read any of my previous comments, or you think that the facts (which explicitly disprove most of the anti-Israel myths about this conflict) are irrelevant and that only your childish, distorted, and amoral preconceptions matter, like most “anti-Zionists.” Every piece of information that contradicts the almost cartoonish (yet terrifying) demonization of Israel and Jews, is dismissed as part of a “Zionist conspiracy” or deemed “irrelevant.” The fact that you wrote “conflict” suggests you think this is one sided or maybe even a “genocide,” which would only further indicate your insane ignorance of even the most basic relevant information.

What’s tragic is that people like you, “Humanity Hannity,” veil your irrational hatred in a pathetic costume of “liberalism” or “humanism,” both of which labels you contaminate with your hypocrisy and anti-intellectualism.

leetabin

What is the point of arguing with bigots?

leetabin

Fewer and fewer Dems support Israel. Jews haven’t figured that out.

Basiclife1

In other words, you’re in a pro-Israel echo chamber… Might want to move out of your comfort zone if you want to be able to assess your position objectively.

leetabin

Education has little to do with judgment or anti Semitism

Ask yourself. 1. If the “Palestinians” lay down their arms what would Israel do to them?
2. If the Israelis lay down their arms, what would the Arabs do to them?

1. Peace
2. Genocide

Lots of Jews are anti Israel but they are delusional…you I suspect, don’t like JEWS!

Bruno Coro Niembro

Being intelligent is not the same as being smart. The fact you believe you can better understand what happens in the world (and, in this case, what happens in Israel/Palestine) just because you studied in a university precisely proves it…

Jonah Stern

I think you mean “being educated is not the same as being smart,” and I absolutely agree with that. They’re different but there’s also a correlation between being educated and being intelligent. It doesn’t mean all intelligent people are highly educated or all educated people are intelligent, but smarter people are more likely to be more educated.

Also, people who followed this conflict very closely overwhelmingly supported Israel’s actions according to this poll…

Bruno Coro Niembro

No, I meant exactly what I said. To be intelligent, that is, to have the ability to learn information, or anything else that would allow one to study and therefore be more educated than someone who would not be as talented does not mean he is better suited to understand the world around him. You seem imply that educated people support Israel because they are more intelligent than people who doesn’t, an agument which quickly falls when looking at the same poll, where it is said women tends to be more pro-palestinian than men which, according to your logic, would mean women are less intelligent than men. The same appllies to non-whites.

And your argument quickly falls when considering the US are pretty much the only country which is pro-Israeli, which would mean that Americans are smarter than the rest of the world. So the only explanation left is that the media are biased and that precisely for this reason those who follow the conflict closely (i.e. follow the US media) have more of a pro-Israel bias, if the poll effectively says that.

Tough, if I tell you the truth, I don’t understand how a media can determine whether someone thinks bombing Palestinians, whether they are involved in terrorism or not, submitting them to a regime of apartheid, allowing crazy settlers to settle in their midst, allowing soldiers to shoot unarmed civilians, torture, jail, or use them as human shields without fear of punishment, allying with apartheid South Africa etc etc is wrong, but that’s the way it is. I guess it has a lot to do with the information that is released too.

Jonah Stern

I’m going to assume English is not your first language and ignore the irony of your countless grammatical errors.

I never actually said most of that you claim I implied, that’s your interpretation. Educated people more often support Israel because they are more likely to have a better or more extensive understanding of the situation. The fact that there are other factors (such as gender and ethnicity) does not discount the impact that education (formal or informal–as in how closely they follow the conflict) has on people’s opinions.

And the U.S. is not the only country that is pro-Israel. India overwhelmingly supports Israel. As do the Kurds. And much of the Western World overall, even if it’s more split in Europe (or, you know, places with intense and long-lasting histories of explicit anti-Semitism).

The primary opponents of Israel (public and political) are in Muslim countries and Communist or formerly-Communist countries…not exactly the most intellectually or ethically-inspiring company.

And the U.S. media is actually overall anti-Israel. Repeatedly, most news sources ignore the Israeli perspective and focus primarily on Palestinian “plight” (the most exaggerated in modern history). In the current string of events, many U.S. outlets (NYT, CNN, MSNBC, NBC, CBS) have painted stabbers as “unarmed victims” or publicized easily-refutable misinformation (such as the ever-popular and inaccurate map of “Palestine vs. Israel” over the decades). However, if a media outlet doesn’t paint Israel as a “theocratic, apartheid, genocidal state” (not one of these terms applies to Israel or this conflict), then the “anti-Zionists” claim it is “pro-Israel.”

What’s clear is that people who understand the conflict in the most superficial sense are more likely to be against Israel because they see it as a two-dimensional “armed nation vs. disenfranchised people” scenario, when this couldn’t be farther from the truth.

What’s true is that only one side has consistently opposed any potential for peace, even decades before modern Israel was established. Only one side repeatedly and very vocally vows to commit genocide against the other. Only one side teaches their children to hate and glorifies “martyrdom.”

And only people who are more informed and actually look beneath the top layer of “who has better weapons today” or “who lives more comfortably now” are going to understand the situation. People with little knowledge of the current situation consistently have little knowledge of its complex history (or Jewish history, which is inseparable) so they tend to whitewash it to conform to their “humanitarian” concerns, with little attention to facts or numbers or anything remotely objective.

And to summarize your distorted views in a paragraph while misusing terms or reinforcing ridiculous, baseless accusations based on misconstrued information or evidence does not strengthen or solidify your arguments. If anything, your last paragraph illustrates exactly my point from the beginning. People who tend to oppose Israel also tend to misuse, misrepresent, or just make up terms, statistics, and circumstances. The obsession with and disproportionate responses towards Israel only illuminate the hateful biases that are clearly embedded in most “anti-Zionists.”

Bruno Coro Niembro

“I never actually said most of that you claim I implied, that’s your interpretation. Educated people more often support Israel because they are more likely to have a better or more extensive understanding of the situation.”

… Which mean I implied you said exactly what you said: that people who are educated have a better understanding of the situation because they are more “intelligent” which is an absurd affirmation, since, as far as I know, you don’t need to go to university to learn to read a newspaper or watch TV, or look for stuff in Internet, and think about what you see.

“And the U.S. is not the only country that is pro-Israel. India overwhelmingly supports Israel. As do the Kurds. And much of the Western World overall, even if it’s more split in Europe (or, you know, places with intense and long-lasting histories of explicit anti-Semitism).”

Being educated as you are, surely you understand the importance of providing sources for what you say. I’m going to assume you have them, and I do hope you show me where you get your info from, because looking at this 2008 poll (7 years ago, but I don’t think opinion changed much back then) it seems you are wrong:

US: only 21% clearly take sides in favour of Israel (that means only 21% of Americans are truly intelligent, it’s a wonder your coutry is doing so well!)

India: the support is evenly split between those who support Israel, those who support Palestine, and those who support neither side, a bit far from the “overwhelming support for Israel” you mentioned.

“The primary opponents of Israel (public and political) are in Muslim countries and Communist or formerly-Communist countries”

Russia: as many people support Palestine as Israel. Your mistaken with this one too.

Ukraine: same thing.

You know these countries stopped being communist 25 years ago, right?

You gotta tell me what you mean by “much of the West” when talking of support for Israel! As far as I know as far as Europe is concerned, pretty much EVERY EU country supports Palestinians over Israel. Even Great Britain, who was mostly responsible for the creation of Israel, displays a minimal support for Israel. I guess the Brits never got over the King David Hotel bombing… Specially considering this act of terrorism is celebrated yearly in Israel. But I disgress.

In average, 20% of people interviewed supports Palestine, only 7% support Israel, and 58% favours neither side.

So what poll did you read again? Mine might be wrong, it is entirely possible.

“The primary opponents of Israel (public and political) are in Muslim countries and Communist or formerly-Communist countries…not exactly the most intellectually or ethically-inspiring company.”

“And the U.S. media is actually overall anti-Israel.”

Nonsense. No American media has ever mentioned “unarmed victim” when talking about Palestinians, unless of course when talking about stabbers you also include the unarmed demonstrators that are shot as well by the Israelis.

Oh, and yes, Israel might not be genocidal, nor theocratical (tough religous fundamentalism has a bigger influence than anywhere else in the West) but it is certainly an apartheid state. Do you know exactly what “apartheid” is?

“What’s true is that only one side has consistently opposed any potential for peace, even decades before modern Israel was established. Only one side repeatedly and very vocally vows to commit genocide against the other. ”

Yes, as in the Arab peace initiative (presented by Saudi Arabia) which stipulated the Arab League would recognize Israel in exchange for its return to the pre 1967 borders, which Israel refused?

“Only one side teaches their children to hate and glorifies “martyrdom.”

And the other side just teaches their children to hate, but not martyrdom. I guess it’s much better.

” ridiculous, baseless accusations based on misconstrued information or evidence”

Having asked you to provide evidence, I should probably do the same. For example, this affirmation:

Now let me tell you that if people, in the West or wherever else, knew these “details” and many others, their support for Israel would be far less, I assure you 🙂

Did this ever appear on a US media?

While we are at it, I would also like for you to tell me what credibles sources you take this from:

“It “condemns” Israel for the actions of individual citizens that have no connection to the government”

The IDF soldiers have no connection with the government?

“Meanwhile, actual genocides and humanitarian crises are and have occurred around the world that receive little to zero condemnations from the UN.”

Could you give me one example of a genocide that wasn’t condemned by the UN?

“Palestinians in Gaza have a longer life expectancy than Palestinians and other Arabs in most Middle Eastern and North African countries. They have better access to healthcare. They have among the highest obesity rates in the world.”

You REALLY got to show me where you took that from. I might be mistaken but bombing and starving people is pretty detrimental to their life expectancy, just as bombing hospitals is detrimental to healthcare.

“Their population has exploded pretty much since the Jews began arriving in the late 19th century but especially over the past 30 years.”

I don’t recall this being ever an issue, tough refugees probably had something to do with it.

“Most of the unfortunate circumstances in the territories (which are often better than those of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries) are direct results of violence against Israel and Israeli civilians”

Again, sources please. Bombing power plants, fishing boats, preventing supplies from crossing the Gaza border, whether they are weapons or not, is the Palestinians’ fault?

“Unemployment rates and the blockade are the results of Israel’s security measures taken after the Second Intifada and the smuggling in of weapons by Hamas.”

Preventing people from getting outside of Gaza must not help them a lot to find jobs, to be honest.

Liberal academia is overwhelmingly anti-Israel despite the fact that Jews are insanely over-represented. This is well documented and the liberal academic community is disturbingly one of the most anti-Israel demographics.

Jonah Stern

Okay, where do I begin?

First of all, you’re misconstruing what I did explicitly say, which is that educated people are more LIKELY to be more intelligent (and smarter), not that every intelligent person is educated or that every educated person is intelligent. It’s not black and white. You don’t need higher education to access information online or on TV, but having a higher education or being intelligent (or both) means you will probably be able to better analyze and grasp the complexity and nuances of a situation, especially one as complex as this one. If you want evidence of that, this poll provides that. No need to look elsewhere.

That’s a nice study you posted, but public opinion polls (especially on the global scale) vary dramatically. That being said, there are some consistencies (such as Muslim nations overwhelmingly opposing Israel, the U.S. overwhelmingly supporting Israel, and the European population in general opposing Israel) among most polls.

Here is a long list of polls conducted over the past few years describing the American public’s opinions on the conflict:

You’ll notice some obvious patterns, namely that the American public (as well as the American government, though it’s not shown in the polls) overwhelmingly support Israel against the Palestinians, even if many Americans dislike Netanyahu (as indicated in some polls at the top of the page).

Regarding the EU, while most of the EU public might support Palestinians over Israel, their governments (especially in Western Europe) overwhelmingly support Israel. And I don’t think that any European nation is going to elect or impeach their leaders over this issue since it hardly affects most Europeans’ lives. Also, even though I don’t find it at all surprising that the vast majority of the UK (which, for example, has extremely vocal anti-Zionist residents) public favors the Palestinians, there are polls that indicate otherwise:

And in terms of political and economic relations, the two countries are heavily invested in each other which, again as I stated earlier, is more significant for practical purposes than public opinion (whatever it may be) in any non-Muslim majority nation.

You’ll notice that overall, the non-Israeli media outlets fall much closet to explicitly pro-Palestinian news sources than the Israeli (actually Zionist) sources. They even fall closer than Ha’aretz, which is known to be especially critical of the Israeli government and Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians.

Also, notice how “genocide” is one of the most commonly-used words among anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian sources or individuals, despite the fact that all statistics refute this absurd accusation and misuse of the word.

You’ll also notice some headlines by major U.S. news outlets clearly condemning illustrating condemnation for Israel’s actions.

Recently MSNBC posted a popular and very misleading map depicting the Palestinians’ “land loss” despite the fact that it’s easily refutable since most of the land depicted as “Palestinian” was owned by the Ottoman and then British governments.

The Arab Peace Initiative, which was introduced one day after one of the worst terrorist attacks during the Second Intifada, was written without Israel’s consent, called for millions of Palestinians to return to Israel (as opposed to the newly-formed Palestinian state), many Arab leaders stated or suggested that they/their governments would not recognize Israel’s right to exist as Jewish state, and Hamas basically rejected the plan.

Israel is not an apartheid state. 20% of Israel’s population is Arab and they have all of the same rights. The Palestinian territories are not part of Israel and the limited rights are in response to attacks against Israeli citizens. Look at statistics and you’ll notice that the situation worsened significantly after 2000, when the Second Intifada began, and after 2005, when Hamas came into power.

Israel is condemned for Baruch Goldstein’s actions and for attacks that took place during wars. Palestine has received one condemnation despite regular terrorist attacks from organizations like the PLO and Hamas.

Here’s an example of the overwhelming bias and lopsided attitude of the UN toward Israel versus other countries:

And keep in mind that a total of ~30,000 Palestinians have been killed by the IDF since 1948, (and from available statistics betwee 2000 and 2007, 94% of whom were male and 41% of whom were known militants):

And yes, liberal academia is extremely anti-Israel overall, yet more educated people (according to the poll cited in this article) STILL support Israel over the Palestinians. Liberal academia also happens to be extremely anti-religious despite the fact that the most educated groups in the U.S. are all religious groups (as opposed to atheists/agnostics).

The fact that people working in academia (like my parents actually, who are very Zionist) are less likely to support Israel doesn’t mean that their students are.

Anyway, I realize this post is a bit of a mess and I probably forgot to respond to a lot of stuff, but whatever, I’ve already spent too much time on this.

Just one last question (if you feel any desire to respond): when has most of the world’s population been pro-Israel?

Even back in 1948 during the U.N. most European countries (shortly after the Holocaust) abstained from voting in favor of Israel, including the UK. According to an ADL study, about 1/4 of the world’s population is blatantly anti-Semitic (as in believes the numerous baseless conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the media or the banks or world politics) and a significant portion denies the Holocaust. There’s an obvious and documented correlation between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionist attitudes, so dismissing these disturbing statistics in the context of this conflict would be naive to say the least.

And you are misconstruing what I answered. Of course that to be educated you need to be intelligent, because intelligence helps you to learn things better. Therefore, an educated person will have to be intelligent. But being intelligent is NOT the same as being smart. That’s two completely different things. You can be a space engineer and be a complete moron at life all the same, and vice versa: someone can be smart enough to understand and take the right decisions in his life, for example, but have learning difficulties.

Yes, European governments are more supportive of Israel than European citizens. I never said the contrary.

The problem is that feeling sympathy for Israel is NOT the same as feeling sympathy for Israel more than for Palestine.

And about the term “genocide”, it depends on what you understand by genocide. Strictly speaking, there wasn’t a genocide of Jews, because there are still living Jews. There are genocides that don’t involve the physical extermination of a people.

And about your media study, I didn’t find anything about US media. I did read about the bias of Israeli medias. Did I miss anything? Unless you just want to say that US media (even if CNN was biased, there are far more media than CNN) is less biased than Israeli one.

“Recently MSNBC posted a popular and very misleading map depicting the Palestinians’ “land loss” despite the fact that it’s easily refutable since most of the land depicted as “Palestinian” was owned by the Ottoman and then British governments.”

What is wrong about “Palestinians shot boarding kids’ bus”? And about the video, it doesn’t work.

Irrelevant, since this land was promised to the Palestinians well before 1946. Unless you want to bring the stupid, boring, senseless argument that Palestine and Palestinians didn’t exist before that and this would give the Israelis the right to disposess them.

Jonah Stern

I’m going to leave the whole “intelligent vs. smart vs. educated” debate out of this post because it’s hardly relevant, and overall a really silly argument.

I posted that UK poll because 16% vs 22% is a far cry from the UK public overwhelmingly supporting the Palestinians (as is indicated in some polls… I thought this was the case in the one you posted but I was mistaken, so that’s on me).

The India poll I cited should probably be taken with a grain of salt (as the author of the article noted) since it was conducted by the Israeli government, but the US response is pretty consistent with the multitude of regular polls showing that 50+% side with Israel (as opposed to those who side with the Palestinians and those who don’t care). So I don’t know.

In any case, the 20,000-person pro-Israel rally (one of the largest in recent years) in a country with very few Jews (as well the overwhelmingly-vocal Indian Hindu support of Israel in social media–anecdotal, I know, but still very apparent) show that the Indian public–or at least the non-Muslim Indian public–supports Israel. I can’t find any evidence of any large anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian rally in India recently. Also, India’s government seems to be closer and closer with Israel’s everyday. The two countries (and many of their residents) seem to deal with the same threats of violence from Muslims, so they can relate.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Maybe they relate because Pakistan supports Palestine, and naturally India will not support anyone supported by its ennemy!

Jonah Stern

Right, and maybe Pakistan, like the rest of the Muslim world, supports the Palestinians because they’re mostly Muslims, and because the Jews are not. In fact, the majority of anti-Israel sentiment (at least in terms of percentages of countries’ populations) is from the Muslim countries, who also (according to the study I previously posted) happen to be overwhelmingly anti-Semitic (74%).
Because those factors obviously don’t wildly skew everything about Israeli vs. Palestinian support…

Bruno Coro Niembro

People will always tend to support other people when they share their culture or religion, specially Muslims. But this is a moot point, since as I pointed out most of Europe (even after all the terrorist attacks by AQ and co) favours Palestinians.

Oh, and you mentioned the Muslim world not really being examples of advancement and culture. You do realize that India, which you claimed was “overwhelmingly” pro-Israel, is behind many, if not most Muslim countries? Iran, for example.

Jonah Stern

You’re right, it is a moot point. Sunni and Shi’a Muslims oppose each other tremendously, yet both parties seem to equally despise Israel. The fact that the European public overall supports the Palestinians only further illustrates that your point is irrelevant. Anyway, the European populace has a long and persistent history of anti-Semitism. Israel was founded by Jews FLEEING European oppression.

Yes, the Muslim world is absolutely not an example of forward thinking or technologically-progressive. Most money in the Muslim world comes from natural resources (gas), not innovation. They suffer from extreme constitutional racism, sexism, and homophobia.

India’s relationship with Iran and other Muslim countries only contradicts your supposition that India supports Israel because Pakistan supports the Palestinians. If anything, this shows that India’s and Indians’ support of Israel is not based on contradicting their enemies, but rather stands independent. The same point could be made regarding U.S. relations with and support of countries in the Muslim world who unilaterally oppose Israel.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Well, most of Europe stopped being antisemite more than 50 years ago, so it has hardly anything to do with present opinion of Israel. There is also the fact that many, if not most of the countries who are neither European not Muslim either support Palestinians over Israel, or shows support for neither.

The Muslim world belongs to the third World, and share the same characteristics as Third World countries who are not Muslim. And no, most money doesn’t come from natural ressources, and where this happens, it is pretty much the only source of income (i.e Saudi Arabia) Lebanon doesn’t have much oil, nor does Morocco, Tunis, etc. Yet in terms of standards of living they ressemble the rest of TW countries, specially when looking at their neighbours.

About India, I already showed you that the Indian people at large didn’t show any more support for Israel than for Palestine. And one thing anyway is what the government does, another is what the people thinks.

Jonah Stern

Yes, much of European anti-Semitism has been translated into anti-Zionism.

I did not say anything contradictory to your comment about money and natural resources in the Muslim world. The wealthy Muslim countries are largely built on oil and slavery. You only showed me one poll that suggested that slightly more Indians support Israel than the Palestinians, despite the fact that 15% of India is Muslim.

Although this is not a poll, many of the largest and most vocal pro-Israel groups on Facebook (as well as the largest pro-Israel rally last summer in a country with almost no Jews) are Indian and promote Indian (or more specifically Hindu) – Israel relations.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Yes, well, if one is antisemite, then he *have* to be antizionist, the reverse obviously not being true.

Largely built on oil and slavery? What are you talking about? What slavery? Cases of actual slavery in present times were reported in maybe two or three Muslim countries. Of course, it can be argued that abusive forms of employment exist, as in every country of the world, including Israel, where the settlers regularly employ Palestinian children as workers in near slavery conditions.

I showed you a poll which contradicted your statement that Indian people was “overwhelmingly” pro-Palestinian. There is a big difference between “overwhelming” and a “slightly more”, right?

Bruno Coro Niembro

And of course, one would have to know what exactly is considered “anti-semitic” 🙂

Jonah Stern

If by that, you mean “anti-Semitic” can refer to anything besides hatred of or prejudice toward Jews, then you should look at a dictionary.

If instead, you mean “what constitutes” said prejudice or hatred, then assuming Jews are racist, control the world, and holding any other sort of double standard against Jews (as illustrated in the questions asked in the study I posted) are absolutely anti-Semitic. These would be regarded as racist if they referred to any other group as well.

Bruno Coro Niembro

It is good to know, since many times criticizing the actions of Israel. is considered anti-semitism.

Jonah Stern

Your definition of “genocide” is literally pointless. By that standard, there has not been a single genocide in–ever?

“Genocide” very specifically means “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial,political, or cultural group.”

Terms like “cultural genocide” or whatever are a) irrelevant, and b) dangerously misleading. Just because no genocide (Holocaust, Armenian, Bosnian, Cambodian, Darfur, etc) has been totally successful does not mean that they were not genocides.

The killing of millions or hundreds of thousands of people in a short period, severely diminishing their population is the complete OPPOSITE of what’s happened to the Palestinians, whose population overall has grown from 1.2 million to 12 million in 67 years. The population of Gaza has grown from 80,000 to 1.8 million in that time. Compare that to the reduction of Europe’s Jewish population from 9 million to 3 million in 6 years. Or any other genocide.

It’s a ridiculous misuse of the term. And an extremely dangerous misuse. And the fact that “genocide” is one of the most popular words among the anti-Israel crowd, it’s clear how educated, informed, and/or intelligent they are. Or their value for honesty.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Actually the term is far more complex than that. Let’s look at Wikipedia:

“The word “genocide” was later included as a descriptive term to the process of indictment, but not yet as a formal legal term[1] According to Lemkin, genocide was defined as “a coordinated strategy to destroy a group of people, a process that could be accomplished through total annihilation as well as strategies that eliminate key elements of the group’s basic existence, including language, culture, and economic infrastructure”

Seems the actions carried by Israel against the Palestinians, and especially during the Gaza war, all of them aiming to break their will, fit the definition perfectly.

Oh, and genocide is a very popular words among the Israel crowd – when referring to Palestinians of course. You are aware of that, right? The rabbis that call for the extermination of Arabs, the MP who advocated killing Palestinian mothers, without the Israeli public, supposed to be very sensitive about the issue, reacting to them?

Jonah Stern

Right and according to this extended and largely-informal definition, there are countless “genocides” occurring around the world, and the greatest perpetrator would be globalization via capitalism.

I also don’t remember when Israel sought to eliminate Arabic (one of Israel’s official languages), or forbid practice of Palestinian Arab cultural or religious customs. For instance, there are about 20 colleges or universities and almost 40 mosques in the Palestinian territories.

The economic woes are (as I showed earlier) the direct result of terrorist attacks against Israel. They are imposed as a protective measure. The Palestinians very much brought this upon themselves. And Egypt’s role is as detrimental to the economy of Gaza as Israel’s. Are there individual Israelis (mostly settlers) who commit terrible acts again some Palestinians? Sure. But they are also arrested and tried by the Israeli government.

And when anti-Zionists compare this conflict to the Holocaust, and sometimes refer to Israel’s actions as “much worse than what the Nazis did,” I think they’re generally referring to death rates, especially since this outrage is intensified during violent conflicts, even when the number of deaths is tiny. (Around 80 Palestinians, many if not most of whom were attackers, have been killed by the IDF in 2015, a tiny number for a population of 4.5 million.)

I’m not sure what you mean by “aiming to break their will,” but last summer’s conflict in Gaza was aimed at destroying Hamas’ military infrastructure. The fact that Hamas used civilian buildings for rocket launches is not Israel’s fault.

And the few instances of Israeli figures or officials making such repulsive statements have been condemned by the masses, including the Israeli government. In contrast to Palestinian leadership making such statements and holding massive rallies to support these aspirations.

And it’s fairly clear from death tolls, life expectancy, birth rate, and various other factors that Israel (who has all of the means to commit genocide if they wants) is not doing anything even remotely comparable.

Bruno Coro Niembro

So explain me again how bombing hospitals and power plants, restricting the access of trucks loaded with essential goods (unless Palestinian terrorists have found a way to fabricate rockets out of bread, medicines, or diapers), restricting the sale of Palestinian farmers’ goods, bombing fishing boats are “defensive measures”? Specially when we all saw that if Hamas wants to bring weapons, it CAN?

I do not share the obviously exaggerated affirmations than Israelis “are worse than nazis” and all that bs. Sadly, it must be recognized that Nazism and Zionism DO have many things in common (since many Zionists were, at that time, considered fascist, as acknowledged by none other than Einstein). According to many, if not most Zionist ideologues:

– Israel is the only property of Jews, just as Poland, Czech Republic, etc is a land historically belonging to Germans

– Israel must expand at last to its historical borders, even at the expense of Arabs, just as Germany had to expand at the cost of its neighbours

– Arabs are a deficient, backwards, if not outright inferior race, but can be useful as “menial labour”

– Jews are a superior race, the Chosen People.

– Any means to accomplish these goals are alright.

If the Gaza war was aimed at destroying Hamas infrastructure, then the IDF must be the most useless army on Earth when it comes to killing anything else than unarmed civilians, since Hamas is pretty much intact, and likely will be reinforced by the thousand relatives of those killed by Israel. As useless as in Lebanon. That, or their objective was not to destroy only terrorist infrastructure. But I explained it clearly in the post you answered to. Were there rockets in the power plant? The kids bombed in the beach while playing soccer were terrorists?

“And the few instances of Israeli figures or officials making such repulsive statements have been condemned by the masses, including the Israeli government. In contrast to Palestinian leadership making such statements and holding massive rallies to support these aspirations.”

Hasbara tactics. If “the masses” and the Israeli government (which is precisely MADE UP of these repulsive officials) really cared, they wouldn’t be in their offices today, which is what would happen in any civilized country. Imagine if in UK an official made these statements about Jews, he would be immediately sacked and perhaps even jailed. Not in Israel. They are allowed things that would not be allowed to anyone else. It’s funny how many time Arabs / Muslims are accused of seeing something in English, and then seeing the contrary back home, in Arabic. Seems this is exactly what happens with Israel: Netanyahu complains to the world about anti-semitism, but tolerates (probably because he thinks they are right) the nazis in his government (because that’s exactly what they are).

And I forgot to ask: when was a settler or IDF soldier indicted for killing an innocent Palestinian?

And where are these polls about the superior health & life expectancy of Palestinians?

Jonah Stern

Well, when those hospitals are used to store weapons (and are cleared of patients), and when other utilities are used to directly facilitate war efforts, they become legitimate targets. Some attacks have certainly been disproportionate on Israel’s part, but what Western country does or would not use similar methods or tactics to protect its citizens from lethal threats? And Hamas hides weapons AMONG those goods. Why in the world would Israel restrict these things if they did not present an immediate threat considering their global image? Do you think Israel is stupid?

Your comparisons between Zionism (the idea that Jews deserve a sovereign nation in their historic homeland where they can protect themselves from foreign persecution) and Nazism (the idea that one “racial” group is superior and deserves to conquer the world) are offensive to say the least. And whether or not you personally agree with the more direct comparisons, these are extremely popular ideas among the (as I stated from the first post) less educated anti-Israel crowd.

In any case, I will respond to each of your misinformed accusations or associations with what Zionism is:

-Israel does not belong ONLY to the Jews, but it is where Jews are a majority and can govern themselves, like how Germans are the majority and governing power in Germany, Poles in Poland, Italians in Italy, French in France, and so on. Israel is 20% Arab, which makes it significantly more ethnically diverse than almost any European country (which tend to be 90%+ white European of the local national ethnicity) and its neighboring Arab countries (which are almost all 90+% Arab Muslim). On top of that, Arab citizens of Israel enjoy much better qualities of life and more rights (especially gays and women) than in most Arab countries. Israel is not trying to conquer Jordan or Egypt or Syria or Lebanon. And contrast this to the Arab Muslims, who are very passionate about controlling the entire Middle East as an Arab Muslim nation.

-You’re conflating certain sub-movement of Zionism with Zionism as a whole, which is first and foremost concerned with having a sovereign Jewish national state and home in historic Israel. Meanwhile, as I showed in a previous post, the majority of Palestinians favor having all of historic Palestine back. The Nazis’ intent to conquer Europe was the government’s policy and seemingly-primary purpose, whatever the cost. In contrast, Israel has GIVEN land (the Sinai Peninsula is an excellent example, especially considering how massive it is and the protection it provides against Egypt) in exchange for PEACE, rather than START wars in order to conquer more land.

-This has absolutely nothing to do with Zionism. There are certainly some racist Israelis, much in the same way that there are racist people all over the world, but this has absolutely nothing to do with Zionism. In fact, this sentiment is an excellent example of anti-Zionists explicitly demonizing Jews in order to justify hatred. The fact that Arabs are more often employed in certain jobs (yet are also very present in academia, medicine, politics, and so on in Israel) is socio-economic, not political or ideological.

-“Chosen people” has absolutely nothing to do with superiority or race. Again, an explicitly anti-Semitic myth used to portray Jews as something they are not. Chosen people means Jews have more responsibilities to uphold God’s commandments. Throughout the Bible and Jewish literature, Jews are consistently depicted as being painfully imperfect. Even the most idealized figures are ridiculed for transgressions. Judaism accepts converts of any “race” or ethnic background if they are committed to the Jewish religion and joining the Jewish nation. After conversion, they are 100% Jewish no matter what they were born as. Converts (like Ruth, the direct ancestor of King David) and non-Jews (like the daughter of Pharaoh, who saves the baby Moses) are regarded very highly in Jewish tradition.

-Not true. Human life, and especially the life of Israel’s OWN citizens (like any country) takes precedent over anything else. If “any means” was acceptable, the Palestinian people would no longer exit, let alone have one of the fastest growing populations in the world, and Israel’s area would be much, much larger. A ridiculous accusation to say the least.

Again, you clearly don’t understand Hamas’ tactics. I already posted a source on how Hamas–in the most extreme way possible–uses its citizens has human shields. Contrast this to Israeli “use” (which is extremely rare), in which 1 person was killed over a long period of time. Hamas shoots rockets from civilian structures, tells its people to stay put, and the Palestinian culture glorifies those who die on behalf of the “cause.” Other Western armies have caused as much, if not more, collateral damage in similar situations. Hamas being “pretty much intact” does not change the fact that conflict killed nearly 1,000 militants, destroyed most of their tunnels into Israel, and severely depleted their weapons arsenal. Wars generally don’t end with one side’s army/government being completely destroyed.

The Israeli government is not “made up” of the few racists, those are a minority. And politicians in other western countries make countless offensive and racist remarks with few repercussions.

Holding explicit and absurd double standards against Israel is, in every sense, anti-Semitic. The Israeli government is extremely diverse and not composed of one party. And many Israelis’ concerns lie more in the imminent threat they face every day from all of the surrounding countries rather than some idiotic statements made by individuals that do not translate into action or policy. And with every racist statement comes public condemnation, not support as it does from Palestinian leadership.

I already posted sources about Palestinians having as high a life expectancy as most of their Arab neighbors, how poverty and unemployment rates exactly coincide with increased attacks against Israeli civilians, Palestinian obesity rates, and so on. These aren’t polls, these are statistics. You can go back and find them in my previous posts.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Israel is certainly stupid, if it thinks demolishing a home and slaughtering entire families to destroy a few rockets which have a 1% percent chance of even hitting anyone will increase its security. It will rather mean in an increase in the number of terrorists. But of course that’s not the way it works, it simply wants to bomb the Palestinians at a whole into submission so they stop asking for a viable state. Or do you really believe, and want people to believe, Israelis knew every house where Hamas stored rockets, and knew the phone number of each of them to warn the residents?? No, the truth is they bombed every infrastructure they could, and sometimes they looked into the phone numbers book, pointed at a random number, called, then ordered the bomging.

” And Hamas hides weapons AMONG those goods. Why in the world would Israel restrict these things if they did not present an immediate threat considering their global image? Do you think Israel is stupid?”

And the Palestinians, including pregnant women, who are retained for hours at checkpoints while in need of medical care are a danger too? The fishing boats?

Besides you do know that trucks can be searched for weapons, right? And that Hamas can get the weapons through tunnels, as I already said?

About your question “What coutry would not do the same” It should rather be “What civilized country did the same to protect its citizens”, and specially “HAVING been partly responsible for these attacks?”

About zionism, coming from Wikipedia:

“However, critics of Zionism consider it a colonialist[12] or racist[13] movement. According to historian Avi Shlaim, throughout its history up to present day, Zionism “is replete with manifestations of deep hostility and contempt towards the indigenous population.” Shlaim balances this by pointing out that there have always been individuals within the Zionist movement that have criticized such attitudes. He cites the example of Ahad Ha’am, who after visiting Palestine in 1891, published a series of articles criticizing the aggressive behaviour and political ethnocentrism of Zionist settlers. Ha’am wrote that the Zionists “behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly upon their boundaries, beat them shamefully without reason and even brag about it, and nobody stands to check this contemptible and dangerous tendency” and that they believed that “the only language that the Arabs understand is that of force.”

Seems it didn’t take them too much time to forget they also had been persecuted.

No other civilized country states that said country is the national home of a distinct group, nor do they forbid immigration on this basis. It went so far as to restrict immigration to Israel of Holocaust survivors who had abandoned Judaism.

Do you know about missionary work by non-Jews in Israel?

Which civilized country tolerates his MPs calling for the murder of an entire race and allows him / her to retain his seat? The same goes for religious figures.

” If “any means” was acceptable, the Palestinian people would no longer exit, let alone have one of the fastest growing populations in the world, and Israel’s area would be much, much larger. A ridiculous accusation to say the least.”

I already explained one thing is if they want to do it, another is if they CAN or are allowed to do it 🙂

“Again, you clearly don’t understand Hamas’ tactics. I already posted a source on how Hamas–in the most extreme way possible–uses its citizens has human shields.”

If it actually uses Palestinian as human shields to protect itself, it proved not to be a very effective tactic, right?

” Contrast this to Israeli “use” (which is extremely rare), in which 1 person was killed over a long period of time.”

How do you know it was rare? Did you ask the IDF? And don’t you think that even just one person killed is a crime? Did you read that part about the IDF having regulations that ALLOWED it up to year 2000?? What civilized country allows its army to use human shields, even willling ones? How do you expect people, who knows about this and other crimes, to look upon Israel better than upon Hamas?

And most ridiculous of all, you mention only 1 person was killed like it was somehow a good thing. What, only one person was killed because the IDF took precautions? They used the rest of the people as human shields “safely”?? No, the absurd thing is, that they used them as human shields because they knew most of the people they were after wouldn’t shoot and risk killing fellow Palestinians, therefore contradicting the whole “Palestinians kill their own to cause sympathy” bs.

“The Israeli government is not “made up” of the few racists, those are a minority. And politicians in other western countries make countless offensive and racist remarks with few repercussions.”

Yes, there are racist non-Israeli toos. Which of them went as far as calling for the freaking anihilation of a whole race? Don’t you think that as Israelis constantly remind us of the Holocaust, they should have a special sensibility towards this kind of comments?

Regarding settlers and IDF soldiers being arrested/charged/indicted that’s nice to know some of them are. Will they be given a sentence as harsh as Palestinians?

Jonah Stern

Ok I’ve been trying to post this about a million times with no luck…

Although I don’t agree with the policy, studies found that demolitions of terrorists’ homes decreased later terrorist attacks.

Israel does not intentionally slaughter entire families. Neither does the U.S. or other western nations despite the fact that these things tragically happen, especially in the context of dense urban warfare.

Bruno Coro Niembro

This is awesome. When will Israel do the same to settlers, so they also stop being violent and peace finally comes?

Jonah Stern

Israeli intelligence is consistently ranked as one of the most effective and extensive intelligence networks/organizations in the world. If Israel simply bombed every infrastructure it could, there would be no more infrastructure in Gaza. And is it difficult to believe that Hamas stored weapons in the places that Israel did bomb (and mostly just damaged, did not destroy)?

And despite being so effective, the only way Hamas ran out of rockets is by firing them at Israel. It was still launching them before the truce, much like Hezbollah in Lebanon war.

And don’t you think that if Israel didn’t bomb any more infrastructures, it was because the war ended too son for that?

Jonah Stern

And also, just because Hamas’ rockets are inaccurate does not change the fact that they do kill Israeli civilians, and their presence causes Israelis within their range to live in constant fear. No country would allow this for its citizens.

Just about every civilized country has reacted with extreme force (far more extreme) to not only protect its citizens, but simply to stop political threats in other parts of the world. You can look at almost any war from 1939-present (WW2, Korean War, Vietnam War, Iraq War, War in Afghanistan, among countless others) to see numerous 1st world countries using extreme force, resulting in massive numbers of civilian deaths.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Yes, I’m sure the Israeli citizens must live in constantly fear. Far more than the Palestinians kids in Gaza traumatised by Israeli jets flying over their houses in the middle of the night, fearful that they will be bombed while playing soccer on a beach, or fearful that another war will come and that even an Israeli bomb will reach them wherever they take refuge; or the West Bank kids, afraid from soldiers and settlers as they go to school, afraid that they will be arrested, killed, or used as human shields, afraid that they will spend months in administrative detention, afraid they will be snatched in the middle of the night, which of course is all because of Hamas. Obviously their concerns are nowhere near as important as the unbearable fear the Israelis live in each day.

Bruno Coro Niembro

And there is a difference with the countries you mentioned: besides the fact that these countries had more population and therefore more casualties, one of their goals, stated at last, was to remove a tyrannical regime. There is not even such pretense in the case of Israel. They don’t want to remove Hamas (which they themselves helped rise to power, as I pointed out before), they simply want to bomb Palestinians into submission. Just as the Lebanon war was about bombing Lebanon into submission. Or maybe you didn’t hear theat Israel threatened to bomb Beirut, which wasn’t even 100% Hezbollah, if the Katiushas reached Tel-Aviv?

Jonah Stern

As I probably mentioned before, this is one of the least violent ongoing conflicts (or conflicts in modern history):

The Israeli mentality is entirely the RESULT of being persecuted. This is why Israel (and Jews) are somewhat paranoid and very cautious about national defense. We KNOW the consequences of anti-Semitism and refuse to allow a second Holocaust despite the Muslim world’s pervasive violent rhetoric and threats of genocide.

Almost every state in Europe’s population is 80-90% made up of that nation’s respective national ethnicity. The same is true for East Asia and most of the Middle East. Israel is the Jewish state because it is the place where Jews can govern themselves (and not be subjected to persecution by a non-Jewish majority, as has happened almost everywhere throughout history) and where Jews can ESCAPE persecution without immigration limitations (which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews who could not escape Europe because countries refused to take in many Jewish refugees and Britain limited Jewish immigration into British Palestine during the war).

25% of Israel is non-Jewish. That’s very diverse compared to most countries.

Bruno Coro Niembro

I would rather say the Israeli mentality is the result of the process by which a person who was abused tends to reproduce the same abuse on others, taken to a collective level. Of course, the racism, religiously inspired or not, which has been espoused by some Jews since before the conflict with the Arabs, also play a role. There is right now no danger to Israel. Unless of course you want to tell me somehow the robbing of natural ressources, private property, and the permission for civilians to build settlements (which have no military value on their own), all of this is because they are very afraid of a new Holocaust and this is all part of a convoluted defence strategy!

Jonah Stern

Every country restricts immigration. This is not unique to Israel. Jewish immigration, however, is different because of Israel’s and the Jews’ unique history of escaping persecution.

And I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding Holocaust survivor immigration limitations, but being religious has almost nothing to do with a Jew’s right to make aliyah unless it’s a convert (as in someone who would not be persecuted for being ethnically or genetically Jewish).

Bruno Coro Niembro

Except no civilized country puts immigrants in concentration camps, among all the abuses committed against them, and no civilized countries has politicians who call refugees “infiltrators”.

And it’s funny that a people that has a long history of persecution forbids others who flee persectution from finding refuge. I guess they think only Jews are special enough to desserve that right.

So a Jew who was a Holocaust survivor shouldn’t have the right to migrate to Israel because he converted? That’s an interesting concept.

Jonah Stern

Ayelet Shaked’s comments and posting of another person’s article were terrible and inappropriate and widely-condemned, but they did not call for genocide. They simply stated that being concerned about civilian casualties in war should not be a focus. That civilians who aid and abet terrorists or militants are not innocent. While I don’t agree with her conclusion at all, it is true that the Palestinian people seem to very vocally support their fighters’ targeting of Israeli civilians, and they complement this vocal support with material support. And this type of rhetoric is extremely commonplace in the region. In fact, her comments and the article she posted are tame compared to what Israel’s opponents’ leaders often say very publicly. Again, I’m not defending what she actually said in the sense that civilians are legitimate targets, but it’s easy to look at this from the relatively peaceful oases of the West without understanding what it’s like to be surrounded by nations that regularly vocalize their desire to destroy you.

Also, I gave you plenty of examples of European politicians making disgusting racist comments with little to no repercussions.

Bruno Coro Niembro

“Widely condemned”?? By who?? By the Israelis who constantly complain about anti-semitism sentiment in the world? By the same Israelis who sould have kicked her out of office?

Not a call for genocide? So wanting to kill all “Palestinian mothers” so they won’t raise “little snakes” is not a call for genocide? Then what it is. Give me a break! If a politician anywhere else in the world had said that, the complaints about anti-semitism would be defeaning. Yet in this case, silence. Not only was she not kicked out, but this human garbage actually became minister of JUSTICE. And you want anyone to believe Israelis are actually better than Palestinians??

Israelis don’t want settlements, but settlements are still there; Israelis don’t want racists, yet they elect racists for their government; Israelis don’t want. If Israelis really wanted something, they would have it done. But we know they don’t really want it.

Jonah Stern

“Any means necessary” means that they would do it regardless of consequences, which is very clearly not the case. Israel has consistently acted in direct opposition to your theory.

Hamas’ tactics are not to deter attacks, but rather to pile up casualties. They know they can never win a military conflict with Israel, yet they repeatedly initiate these conflicts by shooting rockets. No, their tactic is one of public image, and by placing civilians in harm’s way so that when Israel attacks Hamas, they sometimes kill innocent people, they are trying to turn the world against Israel. This tactic is pretty explicit and their culture completely glorifies “martyrs.” Children are often taught to aspire to martyrdom (as you can see on the Pal Media Watch YouTube channel I posted above).

Bruno Coro Niembro

Yes, it has consistently acted in direct opposition by, for example, attacking Hamas for killing thse three teenager settlers before making sure they had not been killed by Hamas, as was the case. As for the “conflict” they can’t win, well, the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto also knew they couldn’t win, yet they fought. Many Palestinians also prefer to die or risk dying rather than live humiliated, as I already explained.

And yes, some parents may prefer their kids to be martyrs. Completely abhorent, but it is understandable that they prefer their kids to go to paradise right now rather than be jailed, shot, used as human shields, or tortured (killing kids in cold blood, and snatching them from their house in the middle of the night to jail them is, you know, part of Israel’s defensive plan).

Now tell me again this idiotic lie that everything Israel does is to protect its citizens.

You see, that’s what I was talking about: this kind of stuff won’t appear in main US media. If it did, the support for Israel would be much, much less.

Jonah Stern

Regarding human shields, Hamas’ and Israel’s uses are completely different, and other civilized countries have recorded instances of human shield use. One death is tragic, but clearly the procedure, which I should note has been outlawed (unfortunately, many armies or soldiers knowingly break their respective countries’ laws when at war) by the Israeli high court, has not resulted in regular or frequent deaths.

The procedure usually involved Palestinians inspecting rooms or houses, not literally standing as shields. And in any case, Palestinian propaganda tactics effectively require that they make Israel look guilty. By attack soldiers who (immorally) used Palestinian civilians as more literal “human shields” to deter stone-throwing, the Palestinians themselves would effectively “blow their cover.” I’m sure that sounds crazy, but this is pretty much the Palestinians’ only effective weapon against Israel. By watching actual Palestinian media (as opposed to how the Western media portrays the Palestinians) or listening to what their leaders tell them, it’s actually quite clear.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Oh, and I forgot: I’m sure these Palestinians all happily volunteered to search possible booby trapped-houses for Israel! Right?

Jonah Stern

Lastly, regarding Zionism and racism, you should read the preceding paragraph in the Wiki article you quoted. (I’ve been trying to post this quote but with no luck.. stupid Disqus…)

Jonah Stern

In short, Ben Gurion, Jabotinsky, and Aham Ha’am (three of the most prominent Zionist leaders that cover the entire spectrum) all completely contradict your assertion.

Oh, I have no doubt that they tried to avoid bad press. Once they realized the Arabs would not let themselves be disposessed, it seems their tone changed:

Ben-Gurion:

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population”

“if I was an Arab leader, I would never make peace with Israel. This is normal: we have taken their land. It is true there was Hitler, the Holocaust, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have taken their country. How could they forgive us?”

Jabotinsky:

“We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy.”

Done or not, you managed to contradict yourself in the same comment, ending with a disappointing, sterile accusation. Are they “fake OR disputed” or are they “fake”?

And it’s not really a good thing to quote CAMERA 😉

Jonah Stern

Anyway, I’m not going to respond to your new batch of comments because I don’t have the time or energy to continue this, and it’s clear that this could go on forever.

I will briefly say that citing the Khazar Theory (consistently disproved) does not help you. And Ethiopian Jews have been shown to have Levantine ancestry in recent studies. And in any case, even if they didn’t, the fact that they converted to Judaism and have lived as Jews (at their own expense) for thousands of years makes them part of the Jewish nation.

“This theory has had a complex history, within and beyond Judaism. Major scholars have either defended its plausibility or dismissed it as a pure fantasy.”

Could you tell me what you understand by “consistently disproved”?

Jonah Stern

Every credible genetic study. Breaking my promise, I know, but one more quick and I’m done.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Quoting wikipedia and selectively acccepting or discarding the information it provides, replacing the information with unsourced statements based on your opinion as you see fit isn’t a terribly good way of advancing your point either.

Bruno Coro Niembro

“contrast this to the Arab Muslims, who are very passionate about controlling the entire Middle East as an Arab Muslim nation.”

That’s funny, I would swear it would have looked anti-semite if instead it was this:

“contrast this to the Jews, who are very passionate about controlling the entire Middle East as a Jewish nation.”

But strangely it is okay to say the same about Arabs. Not biased at all, right? XD

Jonah Stern

Well, if you said it about Jews, it would be libel. There is no evidence that Jews have ever controlled or tried to control the entire region. The closest you get is “Greater Israel,” which would extend the Jewish state to be about the size of one small-medium Arab state. And this ideology has not been supported by any remotely legitimate leaders in decades, if ever. The most extreme contemporary ideology with Jews would be to completely annex the West Bank and Gaza (though Gaza is much less important).

In contrast, depending on how you define the Middle East, Arabs (and specifically Arab Muslims) make up the vast majority of residents (especially in countries directly surrounding Israel), and are ideologically intent on “reconquering” one of the few non-Arab states (Israel). The other non-Arab states in the Middle East are pretty much just Turkey and Iran (and arguably Morocco).

Well, then we must be happy that these “not legitimate leaders” don’t want to annex the entire region, just part of it. On the contrary, I take “Israel” represent the “entire Middle-East” Arabs want to control?

Jonah Stern

The Jews were also promised the land long before 1947…

And the Palestinian people as a unique and distinct nation (as opposed to being part of the pan-Arab nation) is a relatively recent invention. This is just history. There’s a reason that the Palestinian flag is almost identical to the Jordanian flag (which was, again, intended to be the Arab state of British Palestine) and the ruling Syrian Ba’ath Party’s flag, which is rooted in Pan-Arabism.

There has never at any point in history been an independent Palestinian nation. In ancient times, there were Philistine city states, but the Philistines (an Aegean people) have little-to-no connection to modern Palestinian Arabs. Throughout the rest of history, “Palestine” referred to a territory south of Syria ruled by various empires (the last of which was the British). This foreign occupation is book-ended by two Jewish states, the Hasmonean kingdom of Judea and modern Israel.

But honestly, you’re right, this is irrelevant. The Palestinians SHOULD have their own state…once they accept Israel’s right to exist and are willing to live peacefully without declaring war as soon as they’re able to import enough weapons.

Anyway, I think that’s enough for now.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Jews may have been promised a national home, not an independant state. That’s completely two different things.

Regarding the history of Palestine, I found something rather interesting in another forum:

2.The very distinct Hebron glassware, Bethlehem mother of pearl and olive wood carvings and unique pottery as mentioned below show Palestine has a distinct cultural history since it’s inception. Palestinian poetry and music is well known throughout the Muslim world because it is unique to Palestine.

A carved ivory handle from excavations on Enkomi Cyprus with a warrior with Palestinian feathered headdress dated 1200 BCE and originating from Askelon, source: British Museum.

3.Palestinian Arabic is different from Levantine Arabic and Arabic in all other Arabic speaking nations. It is closer to Classical Arabic than any other Arabic language around the world and contains loanwords from ancient and modern Middle Eastern (Canaanite, Aramaic, Turkish, Israeli Hebrew) and European (Greek, Latin, French, English) languages not found anywhere else. Source: F. E. Crow in 1901.

4.It’s history as proven by the archaeological and genealogical records is taught at all Universities across the world including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, we have to assume you’ve never attended such classes nor have you ever researched the subject on your own using the same sources everybody else uses. There is physical evidence to place Palestinians and the land of Palestine where Israel and the occupied territories are now since 1100 BCE.

5.In the 2nd century CE under the Romans, “Palestine” as a stand-alone term came into widespread use, printed on coins, in inscriptions and even in rabbinic texts as has been mentioned in the writings of Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder.

6. Pottery found on Palestinian sites across Israel show a distinct difference in ware, shape, paint and decorative concepts closer related to LHIIIC period Aegean and Greek islands.

A decorated gold pommel cap was found in Ashdod and dated to 1100-1000 BCE which was similar to Aegean examples as expected from Palestinian craftsmanship as opposed to Assyrian/Mesopotamian.

Distinct reliefs and clay moldings found in Palestine on sarcophagi of the feathered headdresses worn by all Palestinians on Egyptian reliefs like the Medinet Habu and Abu Simbel reliefs corroborate the archaeological record of the Palestinians existence since at least 1400 BCE in Palestine.

And you are right, Palestinians should be able to form a peaceful state. But seeing their land being robbed to create room for more and more crazy settlers dreaming of expanding Eretz Israel probably don’t help them to see Israel in a favourable way, specially when this is allowed, encouraged, and financed by the State – and by extension, most of the Israeli people who voted the current government in – financed with the national budget, parts of which consists in reparations for the Holocaust, all this while there are Holocaust survivors living in misery in Israel.

But seeing how you are obviously educated and knows fare more about the conflict than me as you said, you already knew how much of a problem this is, right?

Speaking of ancient Israel, I’m just curious, how much did it last as a united, jewish state, and not divided between Israel and Judea (if I’m right?)

Jonah Stern

The terminology is ambiguous, but later clarifications were made:

“The phrase ‘the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people’ was intended and understood by all concerned to mean at the time of the Balfour Declaration that Palestine would ultimately become a ‘Jewish Commonwealth’ or a ‘Jewish State’, if only Jews came and settled there in sufficient numbers.”

1. The earliest mentions of P-L-S-T all refer to it as either a “district” of Syria (not an independent state, but a sub-region of the Levant), or as a specific piece of modern Israel along the coast where the Philistines lived. The name also first appears around when the Philistines first arrive in Israel from the Aegean.

2. Not sure what your point is here. Different cities and regions within larger nations generally have unique cultural histories. I don’t know what you mean by “since its inception” but modern Palestinian culture is little like ancient Philistine culture, which did not speak Arabic or practice Islam. I can’t find any evidence for your claims about the unique Palestinian poetry, but this doesn’t really matter anyway, since regional cultural differences (which are present in virtually every country) don’t make one group a distinct nation. The Palestinian culture, overall, is very similar to neighboring Arab cultures in language, religion, food, and other cultural aspects. The archaeological discoveries you’re referring to have clear Aegean influence and were found in Cyprus, not Israel, illustrating a clear migration pattern of the Philistines into the Levant from Greece.

3. Again, regional dialects are not distinct languages, like Hebrew is distinct from Arabic (and is at least over a thousand years older and actually indigenous to the region). Palestinian Arabic is a TYPE of Levantine Arabic and is closely related to other Levantine dialects of Arabic. The fact that it’s closer to Classical Arabic doesn’t exactly reinforce its status as local since Arabic is a Southern Semitic language, while Hebrew is Northern Semitic (as in from the Levant). All modern languages have loan words, and the fact that Palestinian Arabic may have more is due to the fact that foreigners occupied the region continuously for 1800 years. And just for the record, a huge portion of Arabic words are cognates with Hebrew/Canaanite words, so “loan words” from the local indigenous language (aside from modern loan words from modern Hebrew) is a meaningless statement.

4. Again, you’re referring to archaeological evidence for the Philistines, an Aegean people. Not modern Arabs Palestinians. Might some be descended from them? Very possibly. Is modern Palestinian culture directly or primarily descended from Philistine culture? Hardly. And yes, I have taken classes about this as the Ivy League university I attended. My father (and many family friends) also happen to be professors of the subject. Nice assumption though.

5. Yes, the Romans renamed Judea “Palestine” in an effort to eliminate Jewish connection to the land. And due to the cultural influence of the Romans and the fact that the region was occupied by foreign forces for 1800 years, the name of the region (not sovereign state) remained.

6. Again, you’re referring to an ancient Aegean people (the Philistines) who have long since disappeared as a unique culture or nation. The modern Palestinians have no cultural connection, and the demonym “Palestinian” was adopted because of the regions’ name. In fact, early on, before the establishment of Israel, “Palestinian” was often used to refer to Zionist Jews as often as it was used to refer to the local Arabs.

7. I’m well aware of the genetics. It also happens to be the case that modern Palestinians have a significant amount of sub-Saharan African and Arabian ancestry, and the Arabian culture generally superseded whatever earlier Levantine or Palestinian culture existed. In contrast, while most modern Jews have some southern European ancestry, their identities remained Jewish overall, and the connection to Hebrew and the Land of Israel persisted. While the Jews form a small and unique group specific to Israel, Palestinians fall much more in line with other Arabs (despite variations in local traditions across the Arab world) than as a unique or distinct nation (at least prior to modern times).

8. And yes, settlements certainly cause problems, but these are far from the source. Arab hostility and violence towards Jew long predates 1967 and even 1948, beginning at least in the 1920’s. Again, why did Jordan and Egypt not establish independent Palestinian states in the West Bank and Gaza between 1949 and 1967? Why did Jordan grant and later revoke citizenship to Palestinians in the West Bank?

9. The fact that Judah and Israel separated after ~100 years does not change the fact that a sovereign Jewish kingdom existed in Israel for 300-400 years, and then later for another 100 years under the Hasmoneans. These are the longest-lasting sovereign states in the region over the past 3000 years. And even under the Persians, Greeks, and Romans, the Jewish state continually had a very unique national/cultural identity with no gaps.

10. Holocaust reparations are tiny compared to Israel’s annual GDP, so I don’t think those are significant contributors, whether or not they’re specifically used. And yes, I agree, settlements are a problem for peace.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Regional differences in cultures may not make a distinct nation, but in the case of Palestinians it makes them different from their neighbours. They are unique to them, and not to Syrians, Jordanians, or Egyptians. And the fact that something that makes them different from their neighbours is a variant of a language (Arabic) that did not originate from the region doesn’t matter at all, since it’s still something that distinguishes them from their neighbours, just as many South American countries have distinct ways of speaking Spanish – which are unique to them – when the language did not come from South America.

This was not to claim Palestine is a nation with unique culture, language, and people, because it isn’t, but to correct the claim made by some that were never such a thing as a Palestinian identity, culture, or people. A topic which is rather pointless, since it doesn’t matter if the Palestinians considered themselves Palestinians 3000, 50, or 1 year ago, what matters is they want now to be Palestinians, and not Egyptians, Syrians, etc.

And yes, Arabs were violent before 1948, and every other people in Earth would pretty much have had the same reaction if they had seen their lands being taken to create a state for foreigners (and during this time, the Jews committed their share of bombings and other atrocities, in case you didn’t know). Yet, in present day they would accept a state that would have less land than the 1967 one. Practically no one in Palestine realistically expect they would get all of Israel. Things change, and they admitted defeat. Israel could have accepted the Saudi pace deal, but it chose not to, because then they would have to deal with the deranged settlers who could not realize their dream of a “Greater Israel”. Better to have them outside, killing Arabs, than inside, killing fellow Jews, like they did with Rabin.

These settlers hold Israel hostage, and that’s why Israelis, despite what they might say, will never take any serious actions to remove them unless they are forced to by outside pressure.

Jonah Stern

Every country has regions with distinct identities and dialects. My point was that the current identity of a Palestinian nationality is a recent invention, not an ancient one, and Palestinians have traditionally identified as Arab more than anything else. Meanwhile, the Jews are a cultural isolate, extremely distinct from all of their neighbors and the rest of the world in language, religion, history, culture, and so on.

If anything, I would say the Druze and Samaritans (despite their small numbers) and Assyrians (in Syria and Iraq) are far more “eligible” for statehood on the basis that they are distinct nations than the Palestinian Arabs.

And yes, I agree the Palestinians should have their own state. They sort of do already. Jordan was part of British Palestine and separated to be a distinctly Arab state. Half of its residents are Palestinian and it has enormous ties to the Palestinian Arabs.

Early Arab hostility toward Jews is closest to modern American hostility toward Mexican immigrants, or European hostility toward Syrian refugees. Except the Arabs actually massacred entire Jewish communities rather than simply protest like modern xenophobes.

The Jews did commit plenty of terrible things, especially against the British colonial presence, though against Arabs as well. But the notion that Arab violence is a reaction to initial Jewish violence, or a reaction to the occupation (which is half as old as the violence) is simply false.

Clearly most Palestinians do want all of Israel “back” and the right to return, as well as much of the Palestinian leadership. Israel did not accept the Saudi deal because it was proposed one day after one of the worst attacks during the Second Intifada and Israeli officials did not have adequate time or focus to understand all of the details of a proposal made without their input–based on the history, do you seriously think they would blindly agree to something so significant that was compiled without their consent?

The settlers do not hold Israel hostage. They are a small minority. Arab threats from all sides and from within are what hold Israel hostage. If any European country dealt with what Israel has dealt with since its founding, they would react similarly, if not more harshly.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Jews are cultural isolate? AFAIK a Sephardi and a let’s say, Ethiopian and a Russian Jews only share the same religion and (perhaps even not even) language. I doubt they have a similar culture. They have other common characteristics, but I would say Palestinians are much more homogeneous than Jews culturally.

The excuse you brought for the Israelis not to have accepted the peace plan is understandable. That said… What prevented them from accepting the peace plan after the Second Intifada? What prevent them from accepting it now?

“The settlers do not hold Israel hostage. They are a small minority. Arab threats from all sides and from within are what hold Israel hostage. If any European country dealt with what Israel has dealt with since its founding, they would react similarly, if not more harshly.”

It suffices a small minority to form a terrorist group. It took only one to kill Rabin. I take Israeli politicians don’t want to suffer the same fate, nor do the Israeli people want trouble with the settlers. Nor do allowing settlements have anything to do with containing any threats (in any case it only increases it).

And yes, other European countries did have to deal with similar threats. Do I need to explain how they reacted and whether there is peace now or not?

Jonah Stern

Yes, Jews are a cultural isolate. I never said they were homogeneous. Unlike Christianity and Islam, the Jewish religion (which is really an ethno-religion) is inherently tied to nationhood, and that nationhood is tied to the land of Israel. Jews of all backgrounds (who may have acculturated, intermarried to some extent, and adopted some customs of their non-Jewish neighbors all over the diaspora) have far more in common. The Jewish religion dictates almost every aspect of life and differentiates Jews rather dramatically from their neighbors. Almost every Jewish holiday commemorates a national event, not a religious one. They relate to the Israelite or Judean nation/people, not just some religious figures or philosophies.

Even in Muslim countries (Islam is very similar to Judaism in many ways), the Jews have always been a very distinct (and sometimes persecuted) group.

An example would be that after the establishment of Israel, Jews in Muslim countries were expelled or persecuted simply because they were Jewish, not because they had any direct relationship with the Zionist movement.

Most Jewish communities (especially the larger ones–Ashkenazic, Sephardic, and Mizrakhi) have had contact throughout the exile. For instance, I’m 100% Ashkenazi, but I can trace lines of my family back to Spain and Iraq.

Virtually all Jewish diaspora communities (maybe with a few exceptions) spoke a language derived from, but distinct from, their non-Jewish neighbors, which was written in the Hebrew (or Aramaic) script. They kept dietary and countless other lifestyle traditions/laws that made them extremely distinct in all parts of the world.

The Palestinians are certainly more homogeneous than Israeli Jews (whose diversity is part of what makes Israel so wonderful), and they also form part of a larger, very homogeneous group that is Levantine Arabs. In other words, while Jews are extremely distinct from their neighbors, Palestinian Arabs are very similar to Jordanians, Lebanese, Egyptians, and Syrians. That being said, Palestinians in Gaza are somewhat different from those in the West Bank and northern Israel. Take a look at this map of Arabic dialects in the Arab world, and you will see that Palestinians do not form one distinct demographic linguistically, but rather fall into groups with their neighbors (the one exception is Judeo-Arabic, which is spoken by Mizrakhi Jews).

Regarding the peace plan, I think I already covered this, but there are countless reasons, namely the right of return for Palestinian refugees and the fact that terrorism only worsened after Israel withdrew from Gaza, not to mention the fact that Israel was not involved in the writing the plan.

I don’t think that Israeli politicians fearing settlers is a deterrent for peace. The deterrent is terrorism and existential threats. Yes, a small minority of settlers are absolutely terrorists, but as I showed in a previous comment, they are a small minority.

Please tell me the last time a European country was threatened with extinction by all of its neighbors (who vastly outnumber them) and a big chunk of its residents. The last instance I can think of that’s remotely similar would be World War 2, which is, you know, the deadliest war in recorded history. Otherwise, please enlighten me.

Bruno Coro Niembro

If someone can convert to Judaism, then it is logical to think that all Jews do not have to be descended from actual Israelites. Ethiopians Jews, for instance, certainly do not come from Israel, and there is actually a theory which states that the majority of Jews are not descended from Israelites (it is said they descend from Khazars). Miko Peled, an Israeli “traitor” is a proponent of this:

Refugees do have the right to return to their actual ancestors’ homes, certainly more than squatters whose recent ancestors lived in places with as strong a connection with Israel, and with as much antisemitism as Brooklyn. That said, I’m sure that if the settlers vacate, there will be plenty of space for everyone.

Terrorism would not have worsened if Israel would actually have *left* Gaza instead of continuing to use the security pretext to continue the crimes it carried during the actual occupation, such as the blockade, the bombings etc, which I already covered.

I do continue to think that settlers are deterrants for peace. Unless you can prove me that for some reason Israeli politicians won’t think that if settlers are removed, the same will happen to them than did to Rabin, which did the exact same thing they are expected to do – give away territory –

Bibi must have been a bit afraid when he saw his name written on the picture of a coffin.

First you should tell me which European country gave his neighbours reasons to want to “extinguish” it for not one, not two, but for more than fifty years. And the “all Arabs want to wipe Israel off the map” is bs anyway. How many Arab countries did actually participate in every Arab-Israeli war?

Jonah Stern

Also, just for the record, the majority of Israelis support dismantling the settlements for peace…

It’s nice they support dismantling the settlements. Now if this is true, it is rather surprising they take no steps to actually dismantle them and vote parties that support and finance them, right?

And about the poll, it seems you are also wrong on this one, unless this time is me. You said a majority of Palestinians want to gain back the entire area that is Israel, yet the poll says textually, that when asked about the package deal:

“Time is not on our side; without an agreement on a two-state solution, we keep losing
more land to Israeli settlements every year. It is better to have a state, even with limits,
rather than the status quo and the uncertainty of the future.”
54%

Jonah Stern

Dismantling settlements requires PEACE, which requires Hamas (you know, the elected leadership of Gaza) to accept Israel’s right to exist, and a guarantee that an independent Palestinian state will not lead to a new war. The occupation of the West Bank is, first and foremost, a security measure. Israel is tiny and the Jordan Valley and Judean mountains are a necessary defense buffer against attacks from the east.

Israel withdrew from Gaza completely, and the result was rocket fire from Hamas, not peace. Peace must be established before Israel can withdraw from the West Bank, a much more important military asset.

And no, I’m not wrong. You’re looking at the wrong questions. Page 11.

“Any solution that does not allow all Palestinian refugees to return to their original towns
in Israel itself is unjust and simply unacceptable.” 63% agree.

“It is not necessary for us to accept this deal. Time is on our side, even if we have to
endure more occupation in the meantime. Eventually, Israel will be forced to accept
Palestinians as full citizens or face international isolation.” 60% agree.

“The Palestinians should have all of historic Palestine. It is better to stay with the status
quo than to accept living on only 22 percent of what the Palestinians rightfully deserve.” 57% agree.

Bruno Coro Niembro

“The occupation of the West Bank is, first and foremost, a security measure. Israel is tiny and the Jordan Valley and Judean mountains are a necessary defense buffer against attacks from the east.”

Did it prevent rocket attacks? Knifings? Attacks from the East? By who? No Arab country will ever attack Israel. Is letting Israeli citizens settle in hostile territory a way to ensure their security too? Anyway, why wouldn’t it suffice with a fence?

“Israel withdrew from Gaza completely, and the result was rocket fire from Hamas, not peace. Peace must be established before Israel can withdraw from the West Bank, a much more important military asset.””

Except it stills controls its accesses, coasts and waters, and shoots whatever it feels like inside these, rocket attacks or not. Hardly a fair deal.

The first two don’t mean they want most of Israel back, it only talks about Palestinian refugees and Palestinian citizens of Israel. About the third one, it seems to be contradicted by:

“This proposed package is the best we can get for a two state solution. For those who
prefer a one state solution with equal citizenship, it is unrealistic to hold out for it,
because Israelis would never accept such an outcome and are in a position to prevent it
from happening. 55%

It is the same poll?

Jonah Stern

It’s a security buffer against the countless countries to the east that would like to (and in the past have tried) to destroy Israel. Without the West Bank, Tel Aviv (where the majority of Israel’s Jews live) is within 15 miles (or closer when you include the suburbs) of potential enemy fire. If the Palestinians (or their allies) decided to launch rockets from there, they could easily hit and cause massive destruction to the area and its millions of inhabitants. And considering what happened in Gaza after the disengagement, the idea that Palestinians (whether extremist factions or government forces) would launch rockets at Israeli civilian population centers is hardly far-fetched. And as far as I know, no rockets have been launched from the West Bank since 1967. Stabbings are terrible, but hardly as potentially destructive as rocket attacks.

You say no Arab country would attack Israel? That’s funny because their rhetoric has been followed by action numerous times in the past. If Israel’s defensive buffer was removed, why would they not take advantage? And in any case, the Palestinian threat is more than sufficient to justify the military occupation.

I’m not defending the settlements. They do not help with the peace process, I agree.

The question you just quoted says “the best we can get for a two state solution.” That does not mean that they WANT the two-state solution. It means that, if they compromise, this is the best they’ll get. That doesn’t mean they don’t want all of “historic Palestine” back.

Bruno Coro Niembro

Actually, the poll is a bit confusing. It talks about what arguments the interviewed find convincing, not about what they really want. That’s why more than 50 % give an affirmative answer to contradicting statements.

Jonah Stern

You’re right, it is a little confusing. Does that change the fact that more Palestinians (many of whom might be ambivalent) would NOT accept a Palestinian state that does not include all of Israel? No, it does not.

Bruno Coro Niembro

I have been trying to post this 3 times, but it won’t show up. I will try posting it in pieces:

“And yes, the U.N.’s treatment of Israel is ridiculous. Ridiculous would be an understatement. Since 2006, Israel has been “condemned” by the UN Human Rights Council more times than the rest of the world combined. This includes Syria, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, Myanmar, Venezuela, Honduras, Sudan, Mexico, and countless other countries that have innumerable human rights issues that make Israel’s problems look like nothing.”

To tell the truth, I don’t think you can complain about the UN, seeing how the US is a permanent member of the Security Council and consistently vetoes any resolution against Israel. And the fact that Israel is condemned more than any other country is not because of a global antisemitism sentiment, but because the UN condemns a country as many times as the international norms its breaks. So if Assad bombs 10 000 of his civilians, it will be condemned for the bombing one time, but if Israel bombs civilians, deliberately destroys Palestinian houses to create lebensraums (that’s exactly what it is) for crazed settlers, robs water, builds walls, builds these walls inside Palestinian land (it doesn’t matter if it’s on cultivable lands), is complicit with a genocide (Sabra and Chatila DOES correspond to your definition of genocide), holds people, even children, in prison for as long as they like (administrative detention, something which is unheard of in any civilized country), and many, MANY other things… then the UN is going to release a condemnation for each of these things, meaning they would, theoretically, be condemned “more” times than Syria.

“The Palestinians shoot rockets, blow up restaurants and buses, shoot civilians with assault rifles, and stab civilians (including children and the elderly)”

And the IDF and settlers don’t?

” Palestinians live as long as their Arab neighbors and, outside of the conflicts THEY initiate, live better lives than most people in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, and Lebanon. Jordan is one exception and Jordan also happens to be 50% ethnic Palestinian and was divided from British Palestine to BE the Arab state (where no Jews were allowed to settle).”

So could you show me these statistics which show Gaza Palestinians have a bigger life expectancy and healthcare than their Arab neighbours?

Jonah Stern

The settlers do not shoot rockets, blow up restaurants and buses, shoot with civilians with assault rifles, and stab civilians (with a few, publicly condemned exceptions in the past month). Don’t get me wrong, they’ve done some terrible things, but hardly comparable to actions of groups like Hamas or the PLO.

The IDF only shoots rockets at military targets. Mistakes are made, yes, but it is not the IDF’s fault that Hamas encourages its citizens (who comply) to take part in military campaigns. If someone an unarmed person willingly stands in front of a guy shooting at you, you don’t not shoot back for fear of hitting the person acting as a shield. You try not to shoot them, but your primary responsibility is to protect your own life and kill the shooter. Even if the shooter’s aim is terrible, one accurate shot can kill you.

Meanwhile, this is how the Palestinians treat their citizens who attack Israeli civilians:

No, the settlers just burn kids alive, stone Palestinians, including kids who go to school, shoot them (with another weapon than assault rifles maybe), destroy Palestinian property, and in general make their life as miserable as they can so they will vacate once and for all. Hamas are terrorists, yes, but even them didn’t reach the level of cruelty of burning a kid alive yet. Of course, when their rabbis constantly tell them Jews are the chosen people and that Arabs, or in general every gentile is much like a donkey compared to them, it’s hard to see Palestinians as human beings desserving of life.

About the IDF, well, I don’t think you can blame people for standing in the roof of a hospital to try preventing the IDF from shooting it. About those “mistakes”, is it a mistake to bomb a beach where children are playing soccer with no terrorists around? Use artillery against a bike??? No, in the first case it was deliberate murder (either the one who shot was following orders, either not, but his superiors didn’t care), same in the second case, except the spokeperson was so utterly retarded he didn’t find a more credible excuse than the artillery shot being aimed at a bike.

“Meanwhile, this is how the Palestinians treat their citizens who attack Israeli civilians:”

Targetting unarmed and innocent civilians is always a disgusting act desserving of the worst punishment. That said, it seems the habit of naming streets after terrorists is not exclusive to the Palestinians:

“Let’s start small. Take the example of Shlomo Ben-Yosef. He was hanged by the British administrators of Palestine in 1938. He and others threw grenades in a failed effort to kill the the passengers aboard a Palestinian bus. Today there are streets named after him in Akka and Tel Aviv.

Not to talk abou the King David Hotel bombing, which iirc is celebrated each year in Israel.

About the statistics, I only found Palestine in the list provided by the CIA. While I don’t know how competent the CIA is to find about countries’ life expectancy, it is behind countries such as Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, UAE… Hardly outstanding, and in any case this is DESPITE the occupation, not because of it.

Jonah Stern

Burning kids alive? Who are you talking about? The revenge attack for the three boys who were kidnapped and killed last summer? Yes, this was horrifying and was an isolated incident. There are violent and disgusting settlers, but the majority are not. And, unlike Palestinian violence (which is widely supported, celebrated, and inspired by leaders), settlers make up a minority of Israel’s Jewish population, and their violence is widely condemned.

Your understanding of “chosen people” is completely inaccurate, the few controversial (and almost universally ignored) comparisons of non-Jews to “animals” refers to behavior (as in looking down at the physical world rather than up towards the spiritual world), not any sort of racial superiority. And most rabbis do not talk like this at all. I’ve been surrounded by Jews my entire life (ranging from Reform to Ultra-Orthodox, including many of my cousins in the latter group), and I’ve never heard a single religious leader make any statements like this. I’ve heard of or seen a few exceptions to this in the media, but these are just that, exceptions.

Meanwhile, maybe you should watch some of the almost-1,000 videos (from the past 6 years) on this YouTube page, where Palestinian leaders spread libel in order to incite violence, Palestinians celebrate the deaths of terrorists, children’s TV shows encourage martyrdom and teach bigotry, and religious leaders make explicitly and disturbingly racist or violent statements.

Yes, unfortunately, horrible mistakes are made in wars and innocent people are killed. This is the reality, especially when militants are fighting from densely-populated areas surrounded by civilians (whereas they have plenty of open fields and desert from which they could attack, even in Gaza–don’t believe then look at satellite views on Google maps).

That being said, the IDF has done a remarkable job reducing the number of civilian casualties (on both sides, though especially on their own, where civilians make up a much larger percentage of Israeli casualties than those in Palestinian casualties, but a smaller number) compared to other similar conflicts.

“Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed ‘that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare.’ ”

Shlomo Ben-Yosef is not treated as a hero in Israel for his attempted attack that resulted in zero deaths (and was in revenge for an attack that killed many Jewish civilians). He is treated as such because he was executed by the British for his crime despite the fact that he did not kill anyone. The attempted attack was widely condemned, but his execution was also widely opposed.

The King David Hotel bombing is not celebrated every year. You’re literally just making that up. There was a very controversial 60th anniversary commemoration that focused on the fact that the British were warned of the bomb and did not evacuate the building. I’m certainly not excusing this terrorist act, but stop misconstruing the facts.

You need to look a the life expectancy page more carefully because Palestinian life expectancy (sometimes listed as “Palestine” and sometimes listed as “Gaza” and “West Bank” separately) was listed in 3 of the 4 lists, where it falls right in ling with the life expectancy for the rest of the region/Muslim world.

And of course this is not “because” of the occupation. I was showing you this as “evidence” that the occupation is good or whatever, but rather to show you that the occupation (and the conflict as a whole) as hardly (if at all) affected Palestinians’ mortality rates. This is also reinforced by the fact that the territories have among the fastest growing populations in the world.

Also, on top of that, despite the widespread unemployment (which as I previously showed is the DIRECT result of the Second Intifada), the per capita GDP and per capita nominal GDP of Palestinians is similar to that of Syria and Egypt. If they didn’t consistently worsen their own situation, it would almost certainly be much higher as well.

The point is that the Palestinians are not some “horribly oppressed” people living in intolerable conditions. Despite all of their bullshit, they live in similar conditions to their Arab neighbors.

Also, to further emphasize this, you can watch this fun little video about how “terrible” life under occupation is for Palestinians in the West Bank. Watch some of this guy’s other videos and see what Palestinians say versus Israelis.

Yes, this was an isolated incident, among the others 1000+ “isolated incidents” committed by Israelis over the year. But what stands out is the atrocity of the crime – even Palestinian terrorists were not so cruel as to pour gasoline in a child’s mouth, while he was begging for his life, and then burned him alive. There were Palestinians who killed Jewish kids for sure, and they desserve the worst, but to burn a child alive, one needs not only to be the worst human trash, but also view Palestinians as something less than human – which a view espoused by countless Jewish rabbis.

What was their jail time anyway?

Yes, the IDF did a remarkable job. It also did a remarkable job torturing, killing children or using them as human shields, among them a 9 years old kid. It also did a wonderful job at absolving the perpetrators; it also did a wonderful job of enacting the “Hannibal procedure” in Lebanon, do you know about it?

About Shlomo, it is quite interesting that you believe it is reasonable that a terrorist, whether he was hanged or not, desserves to be honored because after all he had a good reason to do it. I guess this was kosher terrorism? I guess then you have no problem with Palestinians doing the exact same thing? I fail to see how the fact he was hanged increases his status in any way.That said, I take you always look for other possible explanations when it is Palestinians that are honored as heroes?

Sorry I think I confused the King David bombing with Goldstein, which iirc is honored each year by a number of Israelis, but the affirmation that “British were warned” seems to be disputed:

Tough I don’t really need data to realize that even checkpoints must represent a big hindrance to economy alone.

Bruno Coro Niembro

“Your understanding of “chosen people” is completely inaccurate, the few controversial (and almost universally ignored) comparisons of non-Jews to “animals” refers to behavior (as in looking down at the physical world rather than up towards the spiritual world)”

Eh? That’s a creative way to excuse it, to say the least. That said, there isn’t much spirituality mentioned there:

“The ultra-fundamentalist Od Yosef Hai yeshiva in the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar is infamous for its involvement in settler violence against Palestinians. Memorably, one of the students fired a homemade “Kassam” rocket at the neighboring village of Burin in June 2008. This morning, Maarivreports that the Yeshiva’s dean has just published on the proscribed dos and don’ts (mainly the former) regarding the killing of gentiles. Here are some choice excerpts.”

“not any sort of racial superiority. And most rabbis do not talk like this at all. I’ve been surrounded by Jews my entire life (ranging from Reform to Ultra-Orthodox, including many of my cousins in the latter group), and I’ve never heard a single religious leader make any statements like this. I’ve heard of or seen a few exceptions to this in the media, but these are just that, exceptions.”

So Rabbi Ovadia, head of the Shas, party, 3rd iirc biggest party in Israel, who advocated exterminating Arabs, is an “exception”

“Meanwhile, maybe you should watch some of the almost-1,000 videos (from the past 6 years) on this YouTube page, where Palestinian leaders spread libel in order to incite violence, Palestinians celebrate the deaths of terrorists, children’s TV shows encourage martyrdom and teach bigotry, and religious leaders make explicitly and disturbingly racist or violent statements.”

I know this. However what I fail to understand how it is any different from a human garbage bag saying all Palestinians kids should be killed, now Minister of Justice; from a crow gathering in Tel-Aviv square celebrating the deaths of children during the last Gaza war; and *countless* (1000 minimum) examples of Israelis advocating racism, murder, massacre, and outright genocide. These are also exceptions?

“Yes, unfortunately, horrible mistakes are made in wars and innocent people are killed. This is the reality, especially when militants are fighting from densely-populated areas surrounded by civilians (whereas they have plenty of open fields and desert from which they could attack, even in Gaza–don’t believe then look at satellite views on Google maps).”

I’m not trying to excuse Hamas, and I will pass over the fact that the IDF targetted civilian buildings intentionally. Hamas is a group fighting an assymetrical war, against a vastly superior military. It is thus completely ridiculous that they would “fight in open air”. They fight and merge with the civilian population, as did partisans during WW2; as did Jewish terrorist groups before the creation of Israel, when they would murder Arabs and Britons alike, and them melt back into their neighborhouds. Do you expect them to stand in open air and wait to be bombed? Every guerrilla group in existence would do the same and, yes, civilians will suffer, but sometimes even civilians think it is better to at last do some dammage to the other side and risk dying that simply tolerating being humiliated another day. Which doesn’t matter, since Israel would bomb whatever it likes all the same.

Jonah Stern

Right except the U.N condemns Israel multiple times for the same “offenses” while ignoring countries that commit similar offenses regularly. Condemning Assad once for killing 10,000 people is hardly comparably to condemning Israel numerous times for comparably-minuscule “human rights violations.” And such injustices take place all over the world, including the West, with zero response. Meanwhile, countries that regularly and continually commit genocides and execute people without trial or whose citizens live in horrendous conditions get zero condemnations or maybe 1. Syria has received 12 condemnations in the past 4 years despite having a civil war that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives and displaced millions. Meanwhile, Israel has received far more even though the conflict has resulted in about 30,000 Palestinian deaths over 67 years, and displaced a small fraction of those displaced by the Syrian Civil War. North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and countless other countries that violate innumerable human rights, arrest and prosecute with trial, and whose citizens live in squalor on a continual and consistent basis receive few, if any, condemnations or U.N. resolutions.

Sabra and Shatila was not committed by the IDF, and the Israeli who was directly associated with it was to be tried, but was killed before. This is mass murder, not genocide. Horrific, yes. But genocidal, at least when compared to numerous acts that have resulted in severe population depletion, hardly.

Bruno Coro Niembro

As I said, that’s the way the UN and any all laws works. Just as if you murder someone you will be condemned once, but if you steal, hit someone, then flees from the police, you will be condemned three times for three offences, even if all three are less grievous than murder.

It wasn’t committed by the IDF, it was committed thanks to te complicity of the IDF, which is less bad, but barely, specially when we are talking about the army of a people who claims “not to have forgotten the past”. And what Israeli are you talking about? Sharon? Sharon would hardly have beeen trialled, unless he killed Jews, that is.

Jonah Stern

No, if that was the way that the UN worked then countries like China, North Korea (obviously), Myanmar, Mexico, Venezuela, Iran, India, Pakistan, Eritrea, DRC, and basically like half of the world would regularly get “condemned” for the horrific conditions that their citizens live in, or the numerous conflicts that have been going on for years (of which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the least deadly). Instead, Israel is condemned more than all of these other countries combined.

The extent to which it was committed with the IDF is debatable, and it was committed by a Lebanese Christian group that has previously committed similar massacres that the IDF had nothing to do with.

I think you didn’t understand. the UN condemns every crime ONCE. China is a dictature, and if it is condemned (she is in the Security Council), it will be for not being democratic, not for every act derived from it not being democratic. Or maybe you want to say that the UN is paid off by communists as well as muslims? The UN did condemn the recent Hama massacre, so if the other one wasn’t condemned, it was most likely because of politics (Syria being at the time allied with the USSR), you know, something similar that the US does with Israel when it can, which is pretty much 90% of the time. And, as I repeat again, condemnations have no practical effect.

About Sabra and Chatila, well, in my country complicity for the commitment of a crime is punished, I take the same should go for Israel, right? If Israelis helped a genocide to take place, and helped a murdering group such as the SLA, (by proxy it wouldn’t draw so much bad press, because of the “We-Are-The-Only-Democracy-Of-The-ME” and “We-Were-Victims-Of-Genocide-Ourselves”) they should be punished, just as someone ought to be punished for the alliance of Israel with apartheid South Africa. What do you think of it, by the way.

And what do you think of the fact Israel helped the rise of Hamas?

Jonah Stern

The MSNBC map is wrong on numerous levels and should never be on any remotely credible source for information. For one, it depicts British Palestine as divided into two parts (one misleadingly-labeled “Palestine” in order to imply that it is Arab-owned land, and the other labeled “Jewish”), when in fact it should be divided into three parts: one for Jewish settlements, one for Arab-owned land, and the rest (and the majority) for public-owned or British-owned land. Arab and Jewish ownership of land was relatively proportional to their respective populations, with Arab land ownership higher in area in large part because Jews almost all lived in cities while Arabs were much more agrarian.

The map fails to show the numerous proposals or other changes that occurred before 1947’s U.N. proposal, which gave the Arabs much more land, and which they rejected.

The U.N. proposal looks as though Jews get more land, but most is uninhabitable desert. The Arabs were offered the majority of Israel’s arable land.

After 1949, the West Bank and Gaza were NOT independent Palestinians states, but were under Jordanian and Egyptian control. In other words, they were OCCUPIED by Jordan and Egypt. Of course this was a non-issue. Also Jordan granted West Bank residents Jordanian citizenship, but it was later revoked because the Arab league wanted to retain Palestinian refugee status in order to continue the conflict with Israel.

Also, a side note: ever wonder why neither Egypt nor Jordan established an independent Palestinian state during the 18 years when the West Bank and Gaza were under their control?

In any case, the last panel shows the first instances in history when the Palestinian people were actually allowed to govern themselves. Obviously the current situation is very far from ideal, but the succession of images is entirely misleading and, ultimately, false.

Jonah Stern

I keep trying to post why the CNN headline is so wrong, but it won’t show up. Anyway, it paints the perpetrators as unarmed victims and does not specify what “kids’ bus” it is. According to the headline, it could be two Palestinian civilians entering a Palestinian school bus, not two armed terrorists entering a Jewish school bus.

Jonah Stern

Also, regarding the poll you cited and the percentage of Americans with higher education (even though I described why your conclusion from that and my earlier comment was misled), here are statistics for education levels among American citizens:

And nowadays, far more attention and focus is placed on Israel in the UN than Syria, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, among other nations with severe human rights violations. Never mind most of Latin America and Sub-Saharan Africa, where far more people are killed regularly than in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And in terms of actual numbers, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is like a droplet compared to other wars/conflicts in the extended region.

Just realized I forgot to mention those things, so thought I’d add to my last post.

Bruno Coro Niembro

I don’t claim to be an expert on US society but, considering whites tend to be pro-Israel, and that maybe whites are the most educated, could we consider that highly educated people are pro-Israel because they are white? Then in this case we should look at the reasons white people tend to be more supportive of Israel.

As for the UN, I don’t think it focuses more on Israel – Palestine than on any other conflict, and is pretty much useless at solving any kind of conflict. But the media, however, probably puts more emphasis because of its characteristics: romantic fight of the disposessed against the opressors, stones against machine guns, crimes committed by a people who still claims to be victims… Or on the other side the victimized people who yet again fights for its survival etc etc. Simply speaking, people has more interest in this kind of conflict.

Jonah Stern

Yes, white Americans tend to support Israel and they also tend to be older than non-whites, which would explain the entire premise of this article–that younger people are more likely to support the Palestinians. Younger people are also less likely to be educated.

On the other hand, more educated people are more likely to be liberal, yet liberals tend to oppose Israel more, while more educated people (based on this poll) tend to side with Israel. Jews are also one of the most educated ethnic/religious groups in the U.S., tend to be very liberal, and tend to be very supportive of Israel. So this could go on forever, the point is–in my initial comment–that according to this poll, people who are both more educated and followed the conflict more closely were more likely to support Israel, regardless of other potential factors.

And yes, the U.N.’s treatment of Israel is ridiculous. Ridiculous would be an understatement. Since 2006, Israel has been “condemned” by the UN Human Rights Council more times than the rest of the world combined. This includes Syria, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, Myanmar, Venezuela, Honduras, Sudan, Mexico, and countless other countries that have innumerable human rights issues that make Israel’s problems look like nothing.

Around 30,000 Palestinians (4/10 known militants and almost all male) have been killed by the IDF in 67 years. That’s a lower death rate than most large U.S. cities’ murder rates. The Palestinians shoot rockets, blow up restaurants and buses, shoot civilians with assault rifles, and stab civilians (including children and the elderly). The Palestinian population in Israel and the territories today is more than 5X as large as it was in 1948, and that’s despite the massive Palestinian diaspora. Palestinians live as long as their Arab neighbors and, outside of the conflicts THEY initiate, live better lives than most people in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, and Lebanon. Jordan is one exception and Jordan also happens to be 50% ethnic Palestinian and was divided from British Palestine to BE the Arab state (where no Jews were allowed to settle).

You’re literally just buying into the simplistic, largely false narrative presented by the media and by Palestinian propagandists.

Only one side of this conflict has elected leadership that not only denies the Holocaust or any Jewish connection to the land, but vows to annihilate Israel. How exactly does that make the Palestinians the victims? The fact that they don’t value life as much, the fact that they’re willing to teach their children to be martyrs, to throw them in front of moving cars–these things don’t make them victims. They make them violent, suicidal, and irrational.

You wonder why the Palestinian death toll is higher than that of the Israelis? It’s because Israel builds walls to keep terrorists out and uses its technology to protect its citizens. Meanwhile, Palestinian leadership does this:

Your overwhelming ignorance only reinforces my earlier statement that people who oppose Israel have no idea what’s going on, know little about the history, and very poorly analyze what little they do know. So thank you I guess?

leetabin

Well not quite. China is pro Israel and let’s see if you can guess why many European countries aren’t pro Israel. Can you figure that one out? The apartheid Regime is PALESTINIANS!!! Arabs have more rights than anywhere else in Israel!!

In the Mideast.

Urimk

I see you have here a long conversation, but I’m to tired to cover it all,
Just want to know one thing, you said: ” I don’t understand how a media can determine whether someone thinks bombing Palestinians, whether they are involved in terrorism or not, submitting them to a regime of apartheid, allowing crazy settlers to settle in their midst, allowing soldiers to shoot unarmed civilians, torture, jail, or use them as human shields without fear of punishment, allying with apartheid South Africa etc etc is wrong, but that’s the way it is. I guess it has a lot to do with the information that is released too.”
I didn’t really get it, is that what Israel really does? and the media doesn’t release this information? wait a second, so where do you have this information from? from your media?
oh wait I think I got it, did Israelis do those things to people you know? that must be hard….
It’s hard for me too actaully. hard for me to believe.

Easily young America forgets.

Young America overwhelmingly supports who?!

BigSticksWalkSoftly

No wonder the US congress says they support a peaceful 2 state agreement between Palestine and Israel; but then turns around and supplies Israel with am munitions to collectively bomb Palestinian civilians and shoot their protesters.
And the US also pays $100,000 for each Israeli iron dome missile that only hits 10% of the Palestinian rockets, which,by the way only cost $100, are not guided, have very little to no explosive ordinance, and usually don’t do much of anything.

JV

Americans financial support to Israel goes right back to American companies. But in addition to that we support the only liberal society and real democracy in the middle east. Also, partnering with Israel provides a front line for intelligence gathering for our enemies in the middle eat. Not having Israel as an intelligence and military partner is estimated to cost the US over 10-12 Billion dollars a year. And none of this is of course even touching on the moral decision of supporting an ally against the estimated 350 million extremist minded Muslims in the world. Also the Iron Dome stops over 90% of the rockets it targets at; targeting is determined on if the rocket’s trajectory is headed for a populated area.

And closing with some outrageous lies is a nice cherry on the the top of your hasbara dish.
~

JV

Israeli Arabs that live in Israel have all the same rights as Israeli Jews. They vote, they serve in Israeli parliament and have political parties. They are actors, singers, journalists, generals, etc. Also, Israel offers everyone total religious freedom, women’s rights and gay rights. If you are referring to Arabs in Gaza. Gaza isn’t a part of Israel. They unilaterally left Israel in 2005. Israel does have a blockade on Gaza however because after they left the Palestinians started shooting rockets into Israel so Israel has to stop weapons from being imported into it. Now on the flip side, which Arab state doesn’t threaten it’s Jewish or Christian population (if it even has one). Which Arab states offer equal rights to men and women, and let’s not even joke about gay rights? And you call Israel an apartheid state. Lol, enough with your Islamist sympathizing.

radarcontact

They do NOT have the same rights….that is a joke. I live in the US, and I have several friends who are Palestinians, that I knew in medical school here in the US, who are living on the West Bank now. Discrimination, bullying, abuse by the IDF are all common occurrences, similar to what black Americans had to endure prior to the civil rights movement here in the US. Watching innocent Arab homeowners being evicted from their homes, and seeing their homes bulldozed down to make room for rabid Zionist settlers, does not sit well with a lot of people. Israel IS apartheid, no matter how you choose to define it.

Nadia

LOL no they don’t have equal rights as white jews in Israel. Hell even ethiopian jews don’t have the same rights as the other jews. They were forced to take birth control without their knowledge or consent. Your living in a fantasy land. Or you are just spewing propaganda. Probably both. And yes, lets say were in the occupied territories and not the state itself, which still has discrimination towards non-jews and non-whites, when Israel restricts housing, steals land, bulldozes homes, sets up checkpoints, divides farm lands with giant walls, and sets up “jewish only” roads and areas. Not only that, they arrest their children in the middle of the night and treat them like shit. That’s apartheid and a brutal occupation. Nelson mandela, desmond tutu, and south africa are against the policies of Israel. I think they know apartheid more than you sweetheart.

JV

Giant walls and checkpoints…you mean the wall that was put up in response to the persistent suicide bombings…and combined with the checkpoints has been a great success in ending that threat of terrorism.

Now on the supposed-apartheid within Israel itself: I have done you the liberty of copying my previous comment on the subject: “Israeli Arabs that live in Israel have all the same rights as Israeli Jews. They vote, they serve in Israeli parliament and have political parties. They are actors, singers, journalists, generals, etc. Also, Israel offers everyone total religious freedom, women’s rights and gay rights. If you are referring to Arabs in Gaza. Gaza isn’t a part of Israel. They unilaterally left Israel in 2005. Israel does have a blockade on Gaza however because after they left the Palestinians started shooting rockets into Israel so Israel has to stop weapons from being imported into it. Now on the flip side, which Arab state doesn’t threaten it’s Jewish or Christian population (if it even has one). Which Arab states offer equal rights to men and women, and let’s not even joke about gay rights? And you call Israel an apartheid state. Lol, enough with your Islamist sympathizing.”

I could not care less what Desmond Tutu’s opinion of the situation in Israel is. Anyone with an iota of reasoning ability knows that if the Palestinians would accept Israel’s right to exist, and stop the fight against Jews, they would have a state of their own. But they don’t do that because of all the hatred that they as a people have been shown to think in countless polls. They want to kill all the Jews. In the many times a Palestinian state has been offered to them, they did not accept it. Like the old quote says, “The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” I share no pity and no sympathy for these people. The Palestinians do not stand for freedom, or liberal ideals, or pluralism or co-existence. They only stand for ethnic cleansing, martyrdom and extremism which is what they would do if the Israelis didn’t put so much effort to defend themselves.

BigSticksWalkSoftly

Nothing you say is true.
Israel steals US technology and is a liability for the US.
Turkey and Lebanon are other Middle East democracies. So was Egypt and Palestine before outside meddling.
Jordan also has a democratically elected parliament and coordinates with the US better in regards to intelligence gathering against extremists.
Face it.
Israel is a racist apartheid relic of 1930s Germany.
Palestinians didn’t do the holocaust.
And don’t you know that many Palestinians are Christians?
Shows how little you know

JV

Actually, everything I said is true. Turkey and Lebanon are your idea of liberal societies and real democracies? Really Erdogan and Hezbollah? Lol. Tell that to the Kurds in Turkey. Jordan is ruled by a king, and btw, it has killed many thousands of Palestinians in its history.

Israel is not racist or Apartheid at all. There are 1.5 million Arabs in Israel. Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews. They vote, they serve in the Israeli parliament. They have more rights than any other middle east country gives them. They have access to better jobs, and better social services, better medicine than any other middle east country. Arabs that live in Gaza are a different story. They are not part of Israel, they are their own entity. Israel has a blockade on them because unfortunately they would rather import weapons to kill Israelis than to actually attempt nation-building.

Also, as for Christian Palestinians. Let’s talk about them. What has happened to the Christian Palestinians? Many have been threatened and killed by the Muslim Palestinian majority and Palestinian police. It has gotten so bad, that Bethlehem, the once majority Christian city has become overrun by the Muslim Palestinians. Christians in Bethlehem currently account for about 10% of the population. 20 years ago, they were 60%+. Muslim arabs all over the region and including in the Palestinian territories actually do operate in an apartheid manner but nobody cares because they don’t expect anything better of them. Let’s not forget 800,000 Jews were kicked out Israel’s neighboring countries. Jordan pushed out their Palestinian population, including their Palestinian citizens. Jews aren’t even allowed to visit countries like Saudi Arabia but you call Israel, a state that afford its citizens freedom of religion, women’s rights and gay rights an apartheid state. Which other countries in the region allows half of the freedoms Israel gives its citizens?

Wayne

Americans financial support does NOT go right back to American companies. Israel is the ONLY exception to the rule. That was recently in the news. On top of that, America forks over the biggest chunk of money that goes to rebuild Palestinian facilities.

“Seventy-four percent of these funds (US Foreign Aid to Israel) must be spent purchasing US goods and services.”
“Almost all U.S. aid to Israel is now in the form of military assistance”

In other words, US gives money to Israel which it then uses to buy military goods and services from American companies. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship. If you need help understanding why, please read my other comments.

brutus

jew ies,sell it somewhere else slimy jew

JV

I see. A very well-thought out and productive argument. What the world really needs is more kind and open-minded people like yourself. /s

TheHowitzer9 .

Disinformation and giving money to American robber barons is not anything sorthwhile to the American people. We’re Americans, Hasbara. Not Israelis.

JV

So I guess you didn’t actually read any of my comment that you are responding to.

there are inaccuracies in this Gallup story. the unity gov’t between fatah and hamas is the reason israel started the bombing on gaza. not the 3 teens. gallup needs to stop repeating israeli press releases.

Bella

Actually, it was Hamas rocket fire that Israel responded to.

Valshay

Actually Hamas fired rockets after Israel started to kill and arrest over 500 hamas members.

Nadia

No. They fired rockets after Israel did an strike on gaza after the mass arrests This killed 3 people, including a 10 year old child. This hardly gets reported on the corporate news. Key word, corporate.

TheHowitzer9 .

Bullshit, JIDF.

no hate

That’s not true Bella. After Bibi built a frenzy over the dead teens by calling for a search and rescue mission (which by the way was led by Israeil arab bedouins), he had no choice but to attack Gaza as the public wanted war. He did. Hamas responded. Regardless of what you want to believe, destroying power plants, desrtroying water treatment plants, destroying hospitals, bombing sleeping children at UN safe sites where IDF knows refugees are seeking refuge, flattening12 story building because in the 3rd story there is a hamas dude, is just sick, and if Israel was any other country, not a single American and not a single Jew would be pro-Israel,

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