Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Here are a few additional points.
TD teammates: at best in a 15 and 5 David Robinson in 2003, Tony Parker (good but not great), Manu (inconsistent) Ginobli, Bruce Bowen (could there be more of an offfensive liability in the starting lineup no less), Malik Rose (!), and Stephen Jackson (sometimes clutch, most other times a saga of turnovers and bad shots, and older version of Robert Horry (clutch but very limited), and old Michael Finley (streaky but classy), and Brent Barry (even more streaky)

Shaq's Teammates: Kobe Bryant (wow, could you have a better "sidekick"?), Dwayne Wade (I guess you can!), Penny Hardaway (good enough to be the Lebron of the mid 90s), Derek Fisher (cluth shooter, his jumper took only 1.3 seconds in .4 of game time to win!), a very Spry Robert Horry (how can you have Kobe, Horry, and Fisher on one team? Too much clutchness), etc..

Advantage? Shaq by far. Kobe and Wade together are better than all TD teammates combined.

Coaching? Well, Phil Jackson has won 9 titles, and if that isn't enough, Pat Riley has won 6 titles. Thats a grand total of 15 titles behind Shaq's coaching staffs; Greg Pop (maybe) for Duncan, maybe 4. However its still not that close. When Phil came to the Lakers, he already had 6 titles. When Pop became coach of the Spurs? He'd won 0 (zero), and hadn't even performed well at the college ranks either. So in essence you have Mike Brown coaching TD as rookie (as far as coaching experience).

So again, to sum it up, Shaq had so much more to work with than TD, and has done so much less. If TD wins his 4th (now up 3-0 in the finals), he will be ahead in every other career statistic, accomplishment comfortably at least; some categories he is so far ahead it is embarrassing (to Shaq), like first team all-defense (7-0).

So thats it. They both played about the same number of games, so who is greater? MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg. Let's look at it this way: Jordan averaged about twice as many points, but Russel averaged almost 4 times as many rebounds, and Jordan +1 in assists. So who has the advantage in numbers? Perhaps it is best to think of it in terms of todays game. Kobe Bryant and (previously AI) are 30ppg scorers, but so what? Neither of them have LED their team to titles. 30ppg is not some mythic number that equates to victory. HOWEVER, 22.5 rpg is ASTOUNDING! Can you imagine a big man today averaging 22.5 rpg?!? That in itself and by itself would change the outcome of most games. 30ppg is probably a bit less than 1/3 of points scored in an NBA game. HOWEVER, 22.5rpg is half the rebounds virtually every team averages for an entire game, that's 50% of all team rpg to one man! For MJ equal such a feat, he would had to have averaged somewhere in the range of 50ppg for his career, obviiosly not happening.

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two. Why? Because the next category the numbers are REALLY skewed.

Titles:

Bill Russel: 11
Jordan: 6

Wow. 11? Well that's it. MJ was overmatched from the Start. He would have to start winning titles in 88, and not take time off from work for personal pursuits.

Again, Bill Russel is greater than Michael Jordan, and its much wider a chasm than the one that lays between Tim Duncan (the greater) and Shaq (the lesser). Here are a few instructional tools so we have better understanding of my criteria:

1. In regards to Russel and Jordan, I couldn't use steals or blocks, because these Stats weren't kept until 1969. This works out well for Jordan, because Russell, who averaged 22.5 rpg, was beyond compare in rebounding and defensive positioning, meaning an even more lopsided win for Russell statistically.

2. I don't want to hear about the competition being poor then. Russell consistently went against AND guarded all game long Wilt Chamberlain. WILT CHAMBERLAIN!!! There is a huge difference between playing against someone on another team, and GUARDING someone all night long. In essence, he was Bruce Bowen to Wilt, only he averaged 22.5 rpg and 15.1ppg (and obviously did not shut down Wilt.)

3. Listing Jordan's (or Shaq's) career scoring games WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Jordan 's career high was 69 points. Obviously a stellar performance. But Bill Russel? Bill Russel's career high was 50rpgs. 50! That is more than 100% of the teams rpg output He also got 49rpgs on a few occasions. Bill Russell's 50rpg is more impressive than even Wilts 100 point game (easily).

4. Anyone who thinks Bill Russel was not the man on the Celtics doesn't know basketball. NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE AVERAGES THOSE NUMBERS AND NOT BE "THE MAN."

5. I don't want to hear about Russel having the greatest team and not being fair. And? The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who. Nobody cared that the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, two superstars. Or that Bird had Mchale and Parish and others. Don't get me started on the Showtime Lakers!

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.

hippos

06-14-2007, 01:59 AM

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg. On top of that, its not close in regards to Titles.

Tim Duncan is easily greater than Shaq. Here are their career numbers.

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Here are a few additional points.
TD teammates: at best in a 15 and 5 David Robinson in 2003, Tony Parker (good but not great), Manu (inconsistent) Ginobli, Bruce Bowen (could there be more of an offfensive liability in the starting lineup no less), Malik Rose (!), and Stephen Jackson (sometimes clutch, most other times a saga of turnovers and bad shots, and older version of Robert Horry (clutch but very limited), and old Michael Finley (streaky but classy), and Brent Barry (even more streaky)

Shaq's Teammates: Kobe Bryant (wow, could you have a better "sidekick"?), Dwayne Wade (I guess you can!), Penny Hardaway (good enough to be the Lebron of the mid 90s), Derek Fisher (cluth shooter, his jumper took only 1.3 seconds in .4 of game time to win!), a very Spry Robert Horry (how can you have Kobe, Horry, and Fisher on one team? Too much clutchness), etc..

Advantage? Shaq by far. Kobe and Wade together are better than all TD teammates combined.

Coaching? Well, Phil Jackson has won 9 titles, and if that isn't enough, Pat Riley has won 6 titles. Thats a grand total of 15 titles behind Shaq's coaching staffs; Greg Pop (maybe) for Duncan, maybe 4. However its still not that close. When Phil came to the Lakers, he already had 6 titles. When Pop became coach of the Spurs? He'd won 0 (zero), and hadn't even performed well at the college ranks either. So in essence you have Mike Brown coaching TD as rookie (as far as coaching experience).

So again, to sum it up, Shaq had so much more to work with than TD, and has done so much less. If TD wins his 4th (now up 3-0 in the finals), he will be ahead in every other career statistic, accomplishment comfortably at least; some categories he is so far ahead it is embarrassing (to Shaq), like first team all-defense (7-0).

So thats it. They both played about the same number of games, so who is greater? MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg. Let's look at it this way: Jordan averaged about twice as many points, but Russel averaged almost 4 times as many rebounds, and Jordan +1 in assists. So who has the advantage in numbers? Perhaps it is best to think of it in terms of todays game. Kobe Bryant and (previously AI) are 30ppg scorers, but so what? Neither of them have LED their team to titles. 30ppg is not some mythic number that equates to victory. HOWEVER, 22.5 rpg is ASTOUNDING! Can you imagine a big man today averaging 22.5 rpg?!? That in itself and by itself would change the outcome of most games. 30ppg is probably a bit less than 1/3 of points scored in an NBA game. HOWEVER, 22.5rpg is half the rebounds virtually every team averages for an entire game, that's 50% of all team rpg to one man! For MJ equal such a feat, he would had to have averaged somewhere in the range of 50ppg for his career, obviiosly not happening.

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two. Why? Because the next category the numbers are REALLY skewed.

Titles:

Bill Russel: 11
Jordan: 6

Wow. 11? Well that's it. MJ was overmatched from the Start. He would have to start winning titles in 88, and not take time off from work for personal pursuits.

Again, Bill Russel is greater than Michael Jordan, and its much wider a chasm than the one that lays between Tim Duncan (the greater) and Shaq (the lesser). Here are a few instructional tools so we have better understanding of my criteria:

1. In regards to Russel and Jordan, I couldn't use steals or blocks, because these Stats weren't kept until 1969. This works out well for Jordan, because Russell, who averaged 22.5 rpg, was beyond compare in rebounding and defensive positioning, meaning an even more lopsided win for Russell statistically.

2. I don't want to hear about the competition being poor then. Russell consistently went against AND guarded all game long Wilt Chamberlain. WILT CHAMBERLAIN!!! There is a huge difference between playing against someone on another team, and GUARDING someone all night long. In essence, he was Bruce Bowen to Wilt, only he averaged 22.5 rpg and 15.1ppg (and obviously did not shut down Wilt.)

3. Listing Jordan's (or Shaq's) career scoring games WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Jordan 's career high was 69 points. Obviously a stellar performance. But Bill Russel? Bill Russel's career high was 50rpgs. 50! That is more than 100% of the teams rpg output He also got 49rpgs on a few occasions. Bill Russell's 50rpg is more impressive than even Wilts 100 point game (easily).

4. Anyone who thinks Bill Russel was not the man on the Celtics doesn't know basketball. NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE AVERAGES THOSE NUMBERS AND NOT BE "THE MAN."

5. I don't want to hear about Russel having the greatest team and not being fair. And? The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who. Nobody cared that the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, two superstars. Or that Bird had Mchale and Parish and others. Don't get me started on the Showtime Lakers!

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.

It wasn't a "different game." It was and still is basketball. Russels feats far and away outshine MJs. Also, the Tim Duncan thread? Owned? Please. If you are able to imitate phonetical sounds and understand their meaning (also known as "reading comprehension") actually go back to the thread and "read." The truth won't set you free though, because you won't let it.

Sun Devil

06-14-2007, 02:39 AM

Bill Russel Is Greater Than Jordan.

Also...

Magic > Jordan

Kareem > Jordan

Wilt > Jordan

and maybe even...

Bird > Jordan

So what's your point??!?!?!?!??! :confusedshrug:

poeticism707

06-14-2007, 02:41 AM

friggin jerry west averaged 9 a game at 6'2

you can compared russells rebounding to Jordan elite offensive and defensive skill, in which he had no weakness

The fact that you just typed Jordan "had no weakness" clearly illustrates you are nothing more than a wide eyed casual fan. "Jordan had entertaining Nike Commercials, so he's the best ever! He had no weakness!" Don't bother posting such thoughtless rhetoric on this thread.

G-train

06-14-2007, 02:43 AM

The only people that will respond to this thread are fools, or people laughing and mocking at the fools. i fall in the second category

poeticism707

06-14-2007, 02:43 AM

Also...

Magic > Jordan

Kareem > Jordan

Wilt > Jordan

and maybe even...

Bird > Jordan

So what's your point??!?!?!?!??! :confusedshrug:

I made it very clear, clearer than the hollow space between your ears: Bill Russel is the GOAT!

G-train

06-14-2007, 02:45 AM

Jordan was the complete player - what area would you consider a weakness? He is known as the GOAT for a reason.

He mastered the offensive game... what couldnt he do? he didnt shoot many threes but it wasnt a weakness. tell me his offensive weakness you dumbf*ck

then tell what he couldnt do at his postion defensively

I tell you, this board can be moronic at times

poeticism707

06-14-2007, 02:47 AM

Jordan was the complete player - what area would you consider a weakness? He is known as the GOAT for a reason.

He mastered the offensive game... what couldnt he do? he didnt shoot many threes but it wasnt a weakness. tell me his offensive weakness you dumbf*ck

then tell what he couldnt do at his postion defensively

I tell you, this board can be moronic at times

Did he average 22.5rpg for his career? Compared to Russell, that is a weakness...

poeticism707

06-14-2007, 02:49 AM

Jordan was the complete player - what area would you consider a weakness? He is known as the GOAT for a reason.

He mastered the offensive game... what couldnt he do? he didnt shoot many threes but it wasnt a weakness. tell me his offensive weakness you dumbf*ck

then tell what he couldnt do at his postion defensively

I tell you, this board can be moronic at times

Did he win 11 titles as the man? At all? Compared to Russell, that is rather glaring weakness.

G-train

06-14-2007, 02:53 AM

At the 2 guard position he averaged 6.2 rebounds per game. that is not a weakness

Now list his weakness's. come on

Russell is all time great, top ten player ever most likely. He is probably the greatest defender ever, but he averaged 16 a game with no moves bar layups and dunks.
But Jordan was 10 times the offensive player, and the greatest defensive guard ever.

G-train

06-14-2007, 02:55 AM

Did he win 11 titles as the man? At all? Compared to Russell, that is rather glaring weakness.

No he won 6 titles, the winningest player of his era. Is that a weakness?

Russell won eleven titles on a team with 9 hall of famers. He was a part of a all time great unit. so the other celtics that won 7 or 8 titles are better than jordan because they played on the most dominant team over 15 years in the history of bball?

poeticism707

06-14-2007, 03:08 AM

No he won 6 titles, the winningest player of his era. Is that a weakness?

Russell won eleven titles on a team with 9 hall of famers. He was a part of a all time great unit. so the other celtics that won 7 or 8 titles are better than jordan because they played on the most dominant team over 15 years in the history of bball?

Of course they are (just kidding). No whether they were good or no, it doesn't invalidate such greatness as Bill Russel showed. Just because there was no cable to show it, doesn't mean his greatness should be overlooked. Bill Russel is the GOAT, MJ is the MOAT (MOST-HYPED OF ALL TIME).

Also, that is the difference between Russel and Jordan. Jordan is the winningest player of his era; Russell is the winninest player of ANY era. (among those who're the "main man")

G-train

06-14-2007, 03:14 AM

ok, now explain to me Michael Jordans weakness's as a player on the basketball court. Nothing to do with team or timeframes, but as a player.

poeticism707

06-14-2007, 03:18 AM

ok, now explain to me Michael Jordans weakness's as a player on the basketball court. Nothing to do with team or timeframes, but as a player.

It's not just about his weaknesses. It is a question of are his strengths stronger than Russell strengths. The answer is a resonding NO. 30ppg, 5.3apg, 6.2rpg with 6 titles loses every time to 15.1ppg, 22.5rpg, and 4.3apg, with 11 titles. MJ was great; Russell is the greatest.

G-train

06-14-2007, 03:25 AM

It's not just about his weaknesses. It is a question of are his strengths stronger than Russell strengths. The answer is a resonding NO. 30ppg, 5.3apg, 6.2rpg with 6 titles loses every time to 15.1ppg, 22.5rpg, and 4.3apg, with 11 titles. MJ was great; Russell is the greatest.

fool! russell averaged 15 when players and teams were scoring in bunches. his offensive game was full of holes

jordan is the greatest offensive player ever, no weakness's adn the greatest guard defender ever

Russells rebounding is like averaging 14 today. Did u look at the link? Rebounding numbers were high across the board. All you have to offer is the rebounding and its a flawed argument. If you knew the game, what made Russell great was his athletiscm, shot blocking and intelligence

consider yourself OWNED

poeticism707

06-14-2007, 03:33 AM

fool! russell averaged 15 when players and teams were scoring in bunches. his offensive game was full of holes

jordan is the greatest offensive player ever, no weakness's adn the greatest guard defender ever

Russells rebounding is like averaging 14 today. Did u look at the link? Rebounding numbers were high across the board. All you have to offer is the rebounding and its a flawed argument. If you knew the game, what made Russell great was his athletiscm, shot blocking and intelligence

consider yourself OWNED

Consider yourself a moron for making sweeping statements about imperfect people, ie "Jordan had no weakness", "best guard defender ever!" O really? Ever heard of Dennis Johnson? Joe Dumars just to tame a few? Your knowledge of the game could not be more limited, and your arguments could not be more flawed. Even if MJ was the GOAT (he's not, he's the MOAT), you certainly haven't proven it. Why don't you get Stuart Scott to type for you, then ESPN can provide all of your opinions for you. If they want your opinion, they'll give it to you. The lamp lighting your computer or the onion in your refrigerator has more cognitive skills than you; the squash has more personality!

lovethetriangle

06-14-2007, 04:35 AM

Did he average 22.5rpg for his career? Compared to Russell, that is a weakness...

This is where you lose.

Aussie Dunker

06-14-2007, 06:53 AM

I wonder what jordans stats and achievments would of been like in Bill russel's day...

Kintotheizzo

06-14-2007, 08:14 AM

Bill Russel would not even average 14 RPG more between 11-12 RPG.

dejordan

06-14-2007, 09:48 AM

first of all getting 20+ rebounds was much easier back in russell's day because the game pace was alot faster (actually getting 30 plus points was too), so your statistics are already looking sloppy - but we know this from your previous arguments where you try to prove that awards and numbers can tell the whole story of a basketball player.

now let's review all the clutch playoffs plays that took place for russell's storied boston celtics: last second shots - sam jones; fourth quarter point barrages - tommy heinson & bill sharman; dribbling out the clock to save the lead - bob cousy; havlicek steals it after russell throws an inbound from under the rim off his own backboard and jeopardizes his team's lead - hondo.

now let's review the clutch playoff plays for michael jordan's storied bulls; jordan over elho - jordan; jordan over g. wilkins - jordan; jordan, pippen, and grant all block charles smith - jordan / pippen / grant; game tying two and huge overtime scoring to beat la - jordan; string of assists to paxson to close out la - jordan; game 5 dagger after putting up 50+ to seal win v. suns - jordan; game 6 game winner v. suns - paxson; game winner and 50+ pts v. bullets - jordan; shot over russell for game 1 victory over jazz - jordan; assist to steve kerr for game 6 win over jazz (97) - jordan; game 5 three for the win over jazz w/ the flu - jordan; game 6 score steal and score to bring his team back from down three and win a 6th title - jordan.

so that's not even in the ball park. have fun scouring wikipedia and basketball-reference for counterpoints. i'll start a running list of experts who don't give a sh!t what the media says and all believe jordan is the goat - jerry west, magic johnson, isiah thomas, bob cousy, bob ryan, alonzo mourning, marv albert, doug collins, pat riley, grant hill, dominique wilkins, charles barkley, tim legler, tom tolbert, reggie miller - actually the list of experts who openly disagree is shorter: wilt, oscar, mark jackson, that hill woman from espn.com, and michael jordan who says, accurately, that as he never got to go against his predecessors, any ranking is purely speculative.

Loki

06-14-2007, 10:07 AM

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg.

Considering that 22 rpg back then is around 14 rpg today, no, it's not. Russell, in his best rebounding year, grabbed 24.7 boards, which was 35.3% of his team's rebounds -- roughly a third, not "half" of the team's rebounds as you later suggest. And that was his best rebounding season. His % of total team rebounds for other seasons was generally between 32-35%. So one third, not one half. 35% of the average team's rebounds today would be 14.3 reb/gm. Still very impressive, but not quite the same.

Russell's prime numbers in the late 80's/early 90's would look like 13 pts/14.8 reb/4 ast/4 blk/46% FG. During that same time, Jordan was averaging ~32.5 pts/6.5 reb/5.8 ast/2.6 stl/1 blk/53% FG. I know which one I'd pick...

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two.

The numbers are clearly in Jordan's favor:

Jordan's PER through age 30: 29.7
Russell's PER through age 30: 19.9

Now, blocks were not counnted in Russell's day, which would certainly raise his PER, but not to the tune of 9.8 points. He'd probably be around 22-24 PER at best if blocks were counted (blocks -- even 10 bpg -- can't raise one's PER by 9-10 points due to the nature of the formula employed). Jordan was near 30 PER. So Jordan had a clear -- and sizeable -- statistical edge. In fact, he has a sizeable edge over everyone who has ever played with a few exceptions: Wilt, Shaq, and 70's Kareem.

The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who.

:oldlol:

You had better get some new glasses, then.

nba_on_nbc

06-14-2007, 10:23 AM

It's always sad to see someone who's still not aware of terms like "pace", "rebound rate" etc.

Russell was the ultimate team player, a great winner, top 6 all time. But what's even sadder is that this kind of unintelligent, uninformed arguments only hurt his legacy.

brantonli

06-14-2007, 11:06 AM

scratch that, I will come up with a better response.

td21spurs

06-14-2007, 11:14 AM

As much as i respect your views i will have to say that it is impossible to judge who is greater between MJ and Bill. it is hard if not impossible to equate them because the gap between their eras is too big.

Not that I really agree with the OP's conclusions, but it's a better thread and effort than the "Bill Russell=Dikembe Mutombo" (followed by 2 lines of "explanation") garbage that has been posted by certain posters here and there.

mjbulls23

03-31-2008, 10:35 PM

I can't wait 'til BULLS reads this crap of a thread. :oldlol:

:oldlol: :oldlol:

XxNeXuSxX

03-31-2008, 10:45 PM

Not that I really agree with the OP's conclusions, but it's a better thread and effort than the "Bill Russell=Dikembe Mutombo" (followed by 2 lines of "explanation") garbage that has been posted by certain posters here and there.
I agree.

bleedinpurpleTwo

03-31-2008, 10:58 PM

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.

Kareem is greater than Russel

RagingBull33

03-31-2008, 11:02 PM

Kareem is greater than Russel
Only due to longevity.

bleedinpurpleTwo

03-31-2008, 11:25 PM

Only due to longevity.

and due to 6 MVPs (most of ANY player EVER)
and due to championships in multiple "eras"
and due to MUCH MUCH MUCH tougher competition.

Lebron23

03-31-2008, 11:31 PM

and due to 6 MVPs (most of ANY player EVER)
and due to championships in multiple "eras"
and due to MUCH MUCH MUCH tougher competition.

Completely agree Kareem is the Greatest Center of all time, and He kick the ass of the Boston Celtics in the 1985 NBA Finals. ( Oldest NBA Finals MVP)

dejordan

03-31-2008, 11:35 PM

and due to 6 MVPs (most of ANY player EVER)
and due to championships in multiple "eras"
and due to MUCH MUCH MUCH tougher competition.
as a young celts fan in the 80s i was honestly more afraid of kareem than magic or worthy. the first playoffs i watched was 85, and i just had the idea that we couldn't stop kareem when he wanted to score burned into my psyche.

bleedinpurpleTwo

03-31-2008, 11:41 PM

as a young celts fan in the 80s i was honestly more afraid of kareem than magic or worthy. the first playoffs i watched was 85, and i just had the idea that we couldn't stop kareem when he wanted to score burned into my psyche.

lol. but I'm sure the years of therapy cured you.
:D

but I know what you mean...If he got the ball within 10-12 feet, that skyhook was virtually unstoppable. and if you doubled-down, he was great at passing it to a cutter.

gts

03-31-2008, 11:44 PM

as a young celts fan in the 80s i was honestly more afraid of kareem than magic or worthy. the first playoffs i watched was 85, and i just had the idea that we couldn't stop kareem when he wanted to score burned into my psyche.that's because you couldn't...lol seriously even at that older age when kareem was hot there was no stopping the sky hook or his little turn around post move... i say him against the spurs in a regular season game in the early 80's and the sky hook was dropping that night. that shot was impossible to stop.... he'd hit the shot and turn to run down court and magic would be yakking at gilmore all the way down court "did you see that? man thats pretty"

clayton

03-31-2008, 11:50 PM

Pretty much impossible to compare players from different eras. Different playing stylezzzz. Stats are so overrated.

gts

03-31-2008, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Poseidon
I can't wait 'til BULLS reads this crap of a thread.it may be a while he got his ass owned by coach a. in another thread and signed out...

riseagainst

08-23-2012, 12:55 PM

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg. On top of that, its not close in regards to Titles.

Tim Duncan is easily greater than Shaq. Here are their career numbers.

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Here are a few additional points.
TD teammates: at best in a 15 and 5 David Robinson in 2003, Tony Parker (good but not great), Manu (inconsistent) Ginobli, Bruce Bowen (could there be more of an offfensive liability in the starting lineup no less), Malik Rose (!), and Stephen Jackson (sometimes clutch, most other times a saga of turnovers and bad shots, and older version of Robert Horry (clutch but very limited), and old Michael Finley (streaky but classy), and Brent Barry (even more streaky)

Shaq's Teammates: Kobe Bryant (wow, could you have a better "sidekick"?), Dwayne Wade (I guess you can!), Penny Hardaway (good enough to be the Lebron of the mid 90s), Derek Fisher (cluth shooter, his jumper took only 1.3 seconds in .4 of game time to win!), a very Spry Robert Horry (how can you have Kobe, Horry, and Fisher on one team? Too much clutchness), etc..

Advantage? Shaq by far. Kobe and Wade together are better than all TD teammates combined.

Coaching? Well, Phil Jackson has won 9 titles, and if that isn't enough, Pat Riley has won 6 titles. Thats a grand total of 15 titles behind Shaq's coaching staffs; Greg Pop (maybe) for Duncan, maybe 4. However its still not that close. When Phil came to the Lakers, he already had 6 titles. When Pop became coach of the Spurs? He'd won 0 (zero), and hadn't even performed well at the college ranks either. So in essence you have Mike Brown coaching TD as rookie (as far as coaching experience).

So again, to sum it up, Shaq had so much more to work with than TD, and has done so much less. If TD wins his 4th (now up 3-0 in the finals), he will be ahead in every other career statistic, accomplishment comfortably at least; some categories he is so far ahead it is embarrassing (to Shaq), like first team all-defense (7-0).

So thats it. They both played about the same number of games, so who is greater? MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg. Let's look at it this way: Jordan averaged about twice as many points, but Russel averaged almost 4 times as many rebounds, and Jordan +1 in assists. So who has the advantage in numbers? Perhaps it is best to think of it in terms of todays game. Kobe Bryant and (previously AI) are 30ppg scorers, but so what? Neither of them have LED their team to titles. 30ppg is not some mythic number that equates to victory. HOWEVER, 22.5 rpg is ASTOUNDING! Can you imagine a big man today averaging 22.5 rpg?!? That in itself and by itself would change the outcome of most games. 30ppg is probably a bit less than 1/3 of points scored in an NBA game. HOWEVER, 22.5rpg is half the rebounds virtually every team averages for an entire game, that's 50% of all team rpg to one man! For MJ equal such a feat, he would had to have averaged somewhere in the range of 50ppg for his career, obviiosly not happening.

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two. Why? Because the next category the numbers are REALLY skewed.

Titles:

Bill Russel: 11
Jordan: 6

Wow. 11? Well that's it. MJ was overmatched from the Start. He would have to start winning titles in 88, and not take time off from work for personal pursuits.

Again, Bill Russel is greater than Michael Jordan, and its much wider a chasm than the one that lays between Tim Duncan (the greater) and Shaq (the lesser). Here are a few instructional tools so we have better understanding of my criteria:

1. In regards to Russel and Jordan, I couldn't use steals or blocks, because these Stats weren't kept until 1969. This works out well for Jordan, because Russell, who averaged 22.5 rpg, was beyond compare in rebounding and defensive positioning, meaning an even more lopsided win for Russell statistically.

2. I don't want to hear about the competition being poor then. Russell consistently went against AND guarded all game long Wilt Chamberlain. WILT CHAMBERLAIN!!! There is a huge difference between playing against someone on another team, and GUARDING someone all night long. In essence, he was Bruce Bowen to Wilt, only he averaged 22.5 rpg and 15.1ppg (and obviously did not shut down Wilt.)

3. Listing Jordan's (or Shaq's) career scoring games WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Jordan 's career high was 69 points. Obviously a stellar performance. But Bill Russel? Bill Russel's career high was 50rpgs. 50! That is more than 100% of the teams rpg output He also got 49rpgs on a few occasions. Bill Russell's 50rpg is more impressive than even Wilts 100 point game (easily).

4. Anyone who thinks Bill Russel was not the man on the Celtics doesn't know basketball. NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE AVERAGES THOSE NUMBERS AND NOT BE "THE MAN."

5. I don't want to hear about Russel having the greatest team and not being fair. And? The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who. Nobody cared that the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, two superstars. Or that Bird had Mchale and Parish and others. Don't get me started on the Showtime Lakers!

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.

:rolleyes:

Freedom Kid7

08-23-2012, 01:07 PM

I'm not gonna touch on Bill Russell vs. Jordan. You can make a case for either of them, and I love Russell and all, but I can't put him over Jordan. I just can't.

As for Timmy vs. Shaq, I think this has much more of a case. I think both were elite for an incredibly long time (at least ten years) and both have ups and downs regarding who looks better. Shaq was far and a way a more offensively gifted player than Duncan. Duncan was good in the post and all, but Shaq was a frikkin obese wrecking ball in the lane. If you tried to stop him, you'd get wrecked and slammed on. Defensively, Duncan was a million times of a better defender than Shaq. Part of that has to go to the fact Duncan had a better work ethic than Shaq, and the other part has to go to the fact that, well, it's arguable that Duncan should've played center instead of PF. Duncan's post game was a bit more refined whether it be with his bank shot, swim move in the post, or any other standard post-move. Hell, he could hit a jumper every once and a while. Regarding accolades, both have pretty damn similar accolades with I think Shaq maybe having one additional all-star game over Tim, but Tim has an MVP over Shaq (I think Kidd should've gotten it that year, but that's debatable and Shaqattack brought out points to dispute that ). Peak wise it goes to Shaq. Dominance for three years. Prime, while both have similar lengths of primes, I think I might give the edge to Duncan due to his consistency. Granted, I have Shaq higher because his peak was better than Duncan's, but you could argue one way or the other for that. :confusedshrug:

po3try

08-23-2012, 01:09 PM

Jordan was a better player and overall accomplished more man.

Ikill

08-23-2012, 01:51 PM

No he won 6 titles, the winningest player of his era. Is that a weakness?

Russell won eleven titles on a team with 9 hall of famers. He was a part of a all time great unit. so the other celtics that won 7 or 8 titles are better than jordan because they played on the most dominant team over 15 years in the history of bball?
there hall of famers because of Russell

ILLsmak

08-23-2012, 01:53 PM

lol I wouldn't prop up people's rebounds in the 60s. They were missing all of the time. Someone had to get those rebounds. It only makes sense that a good C would be the one getting them. I bet Jordan could have averaged 15 rebounds per game then, easy.

-Smak

Owl

08-23-2012, 03:10 PM

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg. On top of that, its not close in regards to Titles.

Tim Duncan is easily greater than Shaq. Here are their career numbers.

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Here are a few additional points.
TD teammates: at best in a 15 and 5 David Robinson in 2003, Tony Parker (good but not great), Manu (inconsistent) Ginobli, Bruce Bowen (could there be more of an offfensive liability in the starting lineup no less), Malik Rose (!), and Stephen Jackson (sometimes clutch, most other times a saga of turnovers and bad shots, and older version of Robert Horry (clutch but very limited), and old Michael Finley (streaky but classy), and Brent Barry (even more streaky)

Shaq's Teammates: Kobe Bryant (wow, could you have a better "sidekick"?), Dwayne Wade (I guess you can!), Penny Hardaway (good enough to be the Lebron of the mid 90s), Derek Fisher (cluth shooter, his jumper took only 1.3 seconds in .4 of game time to win!), a very Spry Robert Horry (how can you have Kobe, Horry, and Fisher on one team? Too much clutchness), etc..

Advantage? Shaq by far. Kobe and Wade together are better than all TD teammates combined.

Coaching? Well, Phil Jackson has won 9 titles, and if that isn't enough, Pat Riley has won 6 titles. Thats a grand total of 15 titles behind Shaq's coaching staffs; Greg Pop (maybe) for Duncan, maybe 4. However its still not that close. When Phil came to the Lakers, he already had 6 titles. When Pop became coach of the Spurs? He'd won 0 (zero), and hadn't even performed well at the college ranks either. So in essence you have Mike Brown coaching TD as rookie (as far as coaching experience).

So again, to sum it up, Shaq had so much more to work with than TD, and has done so much less. If TD wins his 4th (now up 3-0 in the finals), he will be ahead in every other career statistic, accomplishment comfortably at least; some categories he is so far ahead it is embarrassing (to Shaq), like first team all-defense (7-0).

So thats it. They both played about the same number of games, so who is greater? MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg. Let's look at it this way: Jordan averaged about twice as many points, but Russel averaged almost 4 times as many rebounds, and Jordan +1 in assists. So who has the advantage in numbers? Perhaps it is best to think of it in terms of todays game. Kobe Bryant and (previously AI) are 30ppg scorers, but so what? Neither of them have LED their team to titles. 30ppg is not some mythic number that equates to victory. HOWEVER, 22.5 rpg is ASTOUNDING! Can you imagine a big man today averaging 22.5 rpg?!? That in itself and by itself would change the outcome of most games. 30ppg is probably a bit less than 1/3 of points scored in an NBA game. HOWEVER, 22.5rpg is half the rebounds virtually every team averages for an entire game, that's 50% of all team rpg to one man! For MJ equal such a feat, he would had to have averaged somewhere in the range of 50ppg for his career, obviiosly not happening.

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two. Why? Because the next category the numbers are REALLY skewed.

Titles:

Bill Russel: 11
Jordan: 6

Wow. 11? Well that's it. MJ was overmatched from the Start. He would have to start winning titles in 88, and not take time off from work for personal pursuits.

Again, Bill Russel is greater than Michael Jordan, and its much wider a chasm than the one that lays between Tim Duncan (the greater) and Shaq (the lesser). Here are a few instructional tools so we have better understanding of my criteria:

1. In regards to Russel and Jordan, I couldn't use steals or blocks, because these Stats weren't kept until 1969. This works out well for Jordan, because Russell, who averaged 22.5 rpg, was beyond compare in rebounding and defensive positioning, meaning an even more lopsided win for Russell statistically.

2. I don't want to hear about the competition being poor then. Russell consistently went against AND guarded all game long Wilt Chamberlain. WILT CHAMBERLAIN!!! There is a huge difference between playing against someone on another team, and GUARDING someone all night long. In essence, he was Bruce Bowen to Wilt, only he averaged 22.5 rpg and 15.1ppg (and obviously did not shut down Wilt.)

3. Listing Jordan's (or Shaq's) career scoring games WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Jordan 's career high was 69 points. Obviously a stellar performance. But Bill Russel? Bill Russel's career high was 50rpgs. 50! That is more than 100% of the teams rpg output He also got 49rpgs on a few occasions. Bill Russell's 50rpg is more impressive than even Wilts 100 point game (easily).

4. Anyone who thinks Bill Russel was not the man on the Celtics doesn't know basketball. NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE AVERAGES THOSE NUMBERS AND NOT BE "THE MAN."

5. I don't want to hear about Russel having the greatest team and not being fair. And? The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who. Nobody cared that the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, two superstars. Or that Bird had Mchale and Parish and others. Don't get me started on the Showtime Lakers!

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.
How is it that if MJ's ppg is easier to achieve than Russell's rebounding that no one has matched Jordan's ppg (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career.html) and Wilt has a superior rpg to Russell and mantained that rate for longer (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trb_per_g_career.html). And this is completely ignoring the influence of pace and field goal percentages.

Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash!
Not remotely true. At this point most people stopped reading.

And finally, please at least get the man's name right. Getting it repeatedly wrong despite having looked up his stats and so presumably seeing it spelt correctly further cements your lack of credibility.

DKLaker

08-23-2012, 03:22 PM

poet707 guy is a complete moron, a literal Volcano of garbage spewing.
Reading anything he posts is time you'll never get back.....best to just ignore anything he says.

TheBigVeto

08-24-2012, 01:42 AM

Russell over Jordan is debatable. I wouldn't argue if somebody puts one over the other.
But Duncan is definitely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shaq.