(18-03-2013 04:28 PM)DeavonReye Wrote: It is "a god" of your own making, . . . influenced by the beliefs of uneducated and superstitious men from ~2,000 years ago, in a time filled with MANY gods and goddesses. Why should I see yours any different? Why should I care about what a fictitious god "does"? IF this god is real, and creates people solely for damnation, then it is evil. Period.

God is the fundamental consciousness. Everything is made from His substance. There is nothing real—only God is really real. So, if you can grasp that, you will see how ludicrous and vain it is to judge God. If God sends someone to hell, He’s sending part of Himself to hell.

You either come into synch with God, or you remain out of synch. Evil and Good aren’t even part of this discussion. Evil and Good is something created way down the chain of creation into the unreal, into the dream of God we call a universe.

But it is pointless telling you this isn’t it? It’s like handing a baby a can of soup and a can opener for lunch.

So, why should you see mine any differently? Because it’s not mine—it’s just what is. Gods and goddesses are just imperfect revelations. Jesus Christ has shown us the Father. You won’t find a better revelation of God in all of human history. But I think you know that.

(18-03-2013 02:59 PM)Egor Wrote: Wrong, Egor. Who's trying to be "god" now? You claim to be "a Christ", but you just failed in your judgement of me. I most certainly DID want to "find god". You don't know who I was back then. I was as sincere as you claim to be about your beliefs.

I realize that you must malign someone who claims a christian past because it doesn't fit with your doctrines, but do not misrepresent me when you did not know me.

Okay, maybe I was wrong. Will you answer one question for me honestly? How old are you? It ain’t going to hurt you to be honest about your age. I don’t have any “gottcha” up my sleeve based on what you say. But I got to know before I make the next statement.

Quote: Thank you for, once again, revealing how incredibly EVIL this god of your is, . . . to derive pleasure from the suffering of others is the most ghastly of past times there is!

Well…for anyone other than God, yeah. But to put it in perspective, it would be like you torturing a character in a dream you are having. When are you going to realize: you don’t belong to yourself. If God wants to torture you in pain, there is no moral authority to appeal to. The same moral authority came from God to begin with.

Quote: I make no apologies. If this "god" really IS like this, then I most certainly am "his enemy" and would want NO "blessing" from such a sadist as "he" is.

You only say that because you’ve never really thought about the concept of “God” with a capital “G.” You’re thinking of God like an earthly king, which I will grant you is a kind of revelation of God, but not a good one. Kings bow down to God. Kings and Queens rule by “Divine Right.”

I have thought, myself, about the “evil” of God, and this is the conclusion I’ve come to: Whatever God does is what defines good. If God is the only real being in existence, if we are His dream images, then there is no right and wrong above God. So, what does a person do in such a situation: Get on the good side of God.

Now, let’s get back to the 3D world. Why are you an atheist? What sin is it you want to be free to do? Because that’s what it’s all about and you know it.

Tell me. You’re anonymous here. You might find it’s not a sin at all.

Quote:IF there is a god, we had ALL better hope it isn't the one you believe it to be, . . . but a much more advanced, honorable, and JUST being.

It’s only in the most recent decades that we’ve come to expect God to be an all-indulging grandmother. Forever (let me repeat that—forever), people have feared God. God is the God of little lambs, little kids, and Hallmark Card love. He is the God of courage and honor, and he is the God of cancer, viruses, and fireants. He is the God of the love you have for your little pet, and He is the God who eventually takes that little pet’s life. He’s going to take my life—and your life, too.

(18-03-2013 02:59 PM)Egor Wrote: Yeah, and notice you weren’t rude. You weren’t even blasphemous toward God. But you weren’t that way out of fear; you were that way because you have some honor. And I’ll tell you something right now, everyone can get their ass kicked by someone else. God knows I can and have. And if I could physically beat you, you could just as easily shoot me. But no one can defeat honor, and people who do battle with honor never loose: gun, fists, or words.

I respect your honor, and in it I see a truly worthy opponent—one I’m not so sure at all I could beat.
[quote]believing out of fear" is [in my opinion] not honorable.

No one believes out of fear. We believe because it comes to make sense to us. Maybe this whole conversation is God calling you to Him. You don’t have to like me anymore than you like a staph infection, but God is my God, too. He may call you to something different based on a revelation of Love.

Here is the first verse of a song by Bethany Dillon. The song is called “Let Your Light Shine.” I think it describes the “part” of God you would follow, and maybe were designed to see much better than I ever could (I typed them myself while listening, so at least do me the honor of reading them).

The Calmer of the sea
Here in this room with me
So gently welcoming
The weakest things in me
You are the blood over
The door of my heart
What pain you spared me from
How could I know it all?
Oh, wonderful Love; You died for me
The power of
Your life is in me
Father let your light shine down on me

Here's a live acoustic version. She could have her whole band with her, she says forget it and sings it with a guitar and microphone. Now that's courage.

I came from a fundamentalist type church [Assemblies of God], so some of your concepts are not as theirs. Some of it rather seems kinda patheistic. "Everything is him". "If someone goes to hell, it is part of god going there". That one, alone, is something I've never heard from any church.

I see some good things that were attributed to a person named "Jesus" in the gospels. Not everything, but sure, some things. But if this same "Jesus" is also the same "god", . . . and it finds perfect 'moral authority' to cause pain for all eternity for someone [and I guess himself too, based upon your uncommon 'part of himself in hell' concept], just because "he says so" [for lack of a better way to put it], . . . it doesn't make it automatically moral, . . . . . UNLESS, . . . our concept of "it being immoral to torture someone for the rest of their life" is also wrong. That is what must be realized in this scenario!

Now about my current world view. I consider myself an agnostic with atheist leanings, mostly because I wasn't ever able to reconcile a "supernatural god" with the entirely natural world I was [and am] in. If all this IS "god", then that's fine, . . . but even if it is, . . . it still isn't anything "supernatural" or even "personal". But. since I am not "all knowing", I cannot make a possitive claim without some level of arrogance. So, I am agnostic about any supposed deities. As for "what sin I would like to do", . . . not much, really. I'm actually a pretty decent person. Quite normal. I don't do drugs, don't smoke, rarely drink alcohol, don't go out a whoring, . . . though I DO enjoy the beauty of the female form. Not sure what else to say.

I liked the song from Bethany. It does take a lot of courage to stand up in front of people and not only sing, but accompany yourself at the same time. It is all on you. Kudos for her. And the song sounded good. Reminds me of the past when I was a part of the music department at the churches I went to. Of course, that's all it was for me, . . . just enjoying the music and the people. I came to where I disagreed with so many of the church doctrines, that I started feeling hypocritical for remaining in it. And not minor doctrines. The very central doctrine, . . . "Christ dying for sins". I just do not find that acceptable that, before a god could be satisfied, something had to die bloody.

(19-03-2013 07:12 AM)DeavonReye Wrote: Just to address a few of your comments:

I came from a fundamentalist type church [Assemblies of God], so some of your concepts are not as theirs. Some of it rather seems kinda patheistic. "Everything is him". "If someone goes to hell, it is part of god going there". That one, alone, is something I've never heard from any church.

I see some good things that were attributed to a person named "Jesus" in the gospels. Not everything, but sure, some things. But if this same "Jesus" is also the same "god", . . . and it finds perfect 'moral authority' to cause pain for all eternity for someone [and I guess himself too, based upon your uncommon 'part of himself in hell' concept], just because "he says so" [for lack of a better way to put it], . . . it doesn't make it automatically moral, . . . . . UNLESS, . . . our concept of "it being immoral to torture someone for the rest of their life" is also wrong. That is what must be realized in this scenario!

Now about my current world view. I consider myself an agnostic with atheist leanings, mostly because I wasn't ever able to reconcile a "supernatural god" with the entirely natural world I was [and am] in. If all this IS "god", then that's fine, . . . but even if it is, . . . it still isn't anything "supernatural" or even "personal". But. since I am not "all knowing", I cannot make a possitive claim without some level of arrogance. So, I am agnostic about any supposed deities. As for "what sin I would like to do", . . . not much, really. I'm actually a pretty decent person. Quite normal. I don't do drugs, don't smoke, rarely drink alcohol, don't go out a whoring, . . . though I DO enjoy the beauty of the female form. Not sure what else to say.

I liked the song from Bethany. It does take a lot of courage to stand up in front of people and not only sing, but accompany yourself at the same time. It is all on you. Kudos for her. And the song sounded good. Reminds me of the past when I was a part of the music department at the churches I went to. Of course, that's all it was for me, . . . just enjoying the music and the people. I came to where I disagreed with so many of the church doctrines, that I started feeling hypocritical for remaining in it. And not minor doctrines. The very central doctrine, . . . "Christ dying for sins". I just do not find that acceptable that, before a god could be satisfied, something had to die bloody.

The Judeo-Christians have it all wrong: It's not us sacrificing Jesus to God--it's God sacrificing Jesus to us. We killed him. He died, because we couldn't stand to have Him in the world with us--he got in the way of us doing our own thing--believing our own way. In the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ it says:

And though the Light shines in the darkness of the world, the world has not understood it; for the Light came into the world and took the form of a man, and though the Light was the Creator of the world, the world did not recognize Him. (VGJC 1:5)

God sent his Son to show us the way. But we killed him instead. So now it's a George Bush-after-9/11 thing: You're either with us or against us. You're either for Christ or you're one of the one's who crucified him.

Now, I don't know about you, but I have a daughter and three grandsons. If I sent my daughter off somewhere to tell people how to become Christ and they nailed her to a cross, I could torture them in hell forever. I could. And I could eat my dinner while I watched them burn for entertainment. It would give me no greater pleasure. Moreover, I could do the same to anyone in that land who didn't stop it or was lackadaisical about it, all of them as far as the eye could see burning in a lake of fire would be like a symphony of justice and revenge. After she was nailed to a cross, there would be only one choice: For her or against her.

If I can be that way, I know God can be that way to a perfect degree.

God never required human sacrifice. Not once. In fact, the OT prophets were already starting to speak out against animal sacrifice as well, and as you see the Jews don't sacrifice animals anymore. Furthermore, we weren't repenting for any sin when we nailed Jesus to the cross. We were executing him like a criminal.

The sacrifice wasn't for God. The sacrifice was from God. The Judeo-Christians (which includes the Assembly of God) have it all backwards (because they're too busy trying to be good Jews, in my opinion, and not Christians).

But you're 44 years old. Half your life is over. For whatever reason, you choose to reject Christ. Apparently Christ isn't good enough for you, God is too immoral for you, and you need them both to bow down and prove themselves to you--apply for your acceptance. Am I right?

I was walking in a Winn Dixie parking lot the other day, and I saw a man a little older than me (I'm 48)., and I said to God, "God, come on, that guy would never accept "being Christ." He's too set in his ways. He isn't going to change." And God immediately spoke to me and said quite matter-of-factly, "When did I ever say everyone would? Wide is the gate that leads to destruction. Narrow is the gate that leads to Christ."

Then I saw a young girl, and it dawned on me: She hasn't blown her life yet. There's hope for her. The message is for the likes of her.

It may be too late for you. At 44, you're probably too set in your ways to change. It may be the case that you remain an atheist for the dwindling number of years you have left, you're talents never realized, your life a testimony to the rejection of Christ. But I can't help hoping. I mean, maybe we're talking as a last ditch effort to save you.

Egor, you are trying to sway my emotions with the idea of me "burning in hell" if I don't receive your christ. It isn't good enough. It isn't evidence of "a god" or "a christ". It is USEFUL for a religion to have that in its arsenal because it scares people into thinking that they had better accept "just in case". Am I "set in my ways"? Absolutely not. That would be narcissistic and arrogant of me. But it takes more than just "a book" and "some followers" [even if the followers are great in number].

As for "God never required human sacrifice", . . . perhaps, but he didn't stop it either [Jepthah]. Animal sacrifice was something that was required by god [in the Old Testament]. I know you don't follow the Old Testament, but isn't it the same "god" as yours?

I understand that a person would have an uncontrolable anger, if their daughter was killed like your analogy, . . . but you are viewing it from a human perspective. Why would any "god" [as described by you, or christianity] have that level of anger [to torture people for eternity] merely for killing a vessel of blood and bone, especially when Jesus was exhaulted to the "right hand of the father"? That was hardly a sacrifice to overcome! It wasn't like "Jesus died and was never seen by god again"!

As I said, . . . I have no idea if there are any deities in existence. That isn't a rejection OF them. I am not convinced ABOUT the claims humans have made about them. There is a BIG difference there!

(19-03-2013 10:26 AM)DeavonReye Wrote: Why would any "god" [as described by you, or christianity] have that level of anger [to torture people for eternity] merely for killing a vessel of blood and bone, especially when Jesus was exhaulted to the "right hand of the father"? That was hardly a sacrifice to overcome! It wasn't like "Jesus died and was never seen by god again"!

What's more, not only did they send Jesus home where he belonged (yeah, really, some sacrifice that was), but the people who did it lived thousands of years ago, so why is god so hell-bent on torturing modern man if his only reason is, as Egor seems to be saying, punishment for killing his kid?

Still makes no sense, and Egor's version is just as nonsensical as all the rest.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein

(19-03-2013 09:58 AM)Egor Wrote: Now, I don't know about you, but I have a daughter and three grandsons. If I sent my daughter off somewhere to tell people how to become Christ and they nailed her to a cross, I could torture them in hell forever.

That's because you're an evil douchebag.

(19-03-2013 09:58 AM)Egor Wrote: I could. And I could eat my dinner while I watched them burn for entertainment. It would give me no greater pleasure.

Thanks for confirming my point. You ARE an evil douchebag.

(19-03-2013 09:58 AM)Egor Wrote: Moreover, I could do the same to anyone in that land who didn't stop it or was lackadaisical about it, all of them as far as the eye could see burning in a lake of fire would be like a symphony of justice and revenge.

Really? An entire land? Some guys, real assholes, kill your daughter, so you retaliate by torturing everyone in the land for all of eternity. EVERYONE? And nothing would give you greater pleasure?

Get help, you evil douchebag.

(19-03-2013 09:58 AM)Egor Wrote: If I can be that way, I know God can be that way to a perfect degree.

If God is perfect, then he would realize that a few assholes committed atrocious crimes against Jesus, but Jesus did bring some of that onto himself. Maybe those guys deserve punishment. Not for eternity. The rest of the land and all the people of the world don't, not for the crucifixion, anyway.

Damn, Egor, your average 5-year-old could figure that out, why is it so hard for you?

Oh, right, Evil Douchebag.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein

(19-03-2013 09:58 AM)Egor Wrote: Now, I don't know about you, but I have a daughter and three grandsons. If I sent my daughter off somewhere to tell people how to become Christ and they nailed her to a cross, I could torture them in hell forever. I could. And I could eat my dinner while I watched them burn for entertainment. It would give me no greater pleasure. Moreover, I could do the same to anyone in that land who didn't stop it or was lackadaisical about it, all of them as far as the eye could see burning in a lake of fire would be like a symphony of justice and revenge. After she was nailed to a cross, there would be only one choice: For her or against her.

If I can be that way, I know God can be that way to a perfect degree.

God never required human sacrifice. Not once. In fact, the OT prophets were already starting to speak out against animal sacrifice as well, and as you see the Jews don't sacrifice animals anymore. Furthermore, we weren't repenting for any sin when we nailed Jesus to the cross. We were executing him like a criminal.

The sacrifice wasn't for God. The sacrifice was from God. The Judeo-Christians (which includes the Assembly of God) have it all backwards (because they're too busy trying to be good Jews, in my opinion, and not Christians).

But you're 44 years old. Half your life is over. For whatever reason, you choose to reject Christ. Apparently Christ isn't good enough for you, God is too immoral for you, and you need them both to bow down and prove themselves to you--apply for your acceptance. Am I right?

I was walking in a Winn Dixie parking lot the other day, and I saw a man a little older than me (I'm 48)., and I said to God, "God, come on, that guy would never accept "being Christ." He's too set in his ways. He isn't going to change." And God immediately spoke to me and said quite matter-of-factly, "When did I ever say everyone would? Wide is the gate that leads to destruction. Narrow is the gate that leads to Christ."

Then I saw a young girl, and it dawned on me: She hasn't blown her life yet. There's hope for her. The message is for the likes of her.

It may be too late for you. At 44, you're probably too set in your ways to change. It may be the case that you remain an atheist for the dwindling number of years you have left, you're talents never realized, your life a testimony to the rejection of Christ. But I can't help hoping. I mean, maybe we're talking as a last ditch effort to save you.

Good luck, Deavon.

In the first part you certainly prove that I am not dramatic when I label your postings here as "rage and hate". In the second part you have a 2 way conversation with God. Then you threw in a shameful unfounded evaluation of someone's life that you've never met. The delusion you live in cannot be a good place to be.

Seriously, Egor, get some help man. If you want to self-immolate I don't care but I will feel some empathy for those that will miss you. I am very worried though that you will hurt someone else.

(19-03-2013 10:26 AM)DeavonReye Wrote: Egor, you are trying to sway my emotions with the idea of me "burning in hell" if I don't receive your christ. It isn't good enough. It isn't evidence of "a god" or "a christ". It is USEFUL for a religion to have that in its arsenal because it scares people into thinking that they had better accept "just in case". Am I "set in my ways"? Absolutely not. That would be narcissistic and arrogant of me. But it takes more than just "a book" and "some followers" [even if the followers are great in number].

So what changed? Before it didn't take more than that, now it does? What changed?

Usually, it's sin of some sort. You can't do this or that and have God watching, so you choose to believe there is no God.

Quote:As for "God never required human sacrifice", . . . perhaps, but he didn't stop it either [Jepthah]. Animal sacrifice was something that was required by god [in the Old Testament]. I know you don't follow the Old Testament, but isn't it the same "god" as yours?

God is God. We have revelations of God. The best revelation of God, the revelation intended for our generation (which started at the end of WWII) is Jesus Christ as he is revealed in the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Quote:I understand that a person would have an uncontrolable anger, if their daughter was killed like your analogy, . . . but you are viewing it from a human perspective. Why would any "god" [as described by you, or christianity] have that level of anger [to torture people for eternity] merely for killing a vessel of blood and bone, especially when Jesus was exhaulted to the "right hand of the father"? That was hardly a sacrifice to overcome! It wasn't like "Jesus died and was never seen by god again"!

I don't know. But I have seen God be very destructive when He doesn't get His way. If I have anger in me, He has it in perfection in Him. If I have love in me, He has it in perfection in Him. I don't possess something God doesn't possess. What I have I got from God. I don't know why God has the attributes He has. The greatest use of logic would only find those attributes to be necessary, but the question of "Why?" would remain.

Quote:As I said, . . . I have no idea if there are any deities in existence. That isn't a rejection OF them. I am not convinced ABOUT the claims humans have made about them. There is a BIG difference there!

No there isn't, and you need to know that. You are in rejection of Christ the same as if you, yourself, were nailing him to the cross. Even worse, you're one of his ex-disciples nailing him to the cross.

You need to know that.

It is better to live with what we consider to be sins than to reject Christ. Some would say it's a sin to be gay or live together without being married, or smoking weed, womanizing or some other thing, and those may be sins--I won't comment one way or another, but all those can be easily tolerated by God and dealt with over time by God. A person can fix those things if they want, and if they don't, it still doesn't prevent them from becoming Christ. Atheism is altogether different. Rejection of Christ is altogether different.

Martial arts? Former Marine (non-combat arms), have a decade's worth of experience in the fighting arts, including a 2nd-degree black belt from a Xian dojo, where I was also its first Chaplain Associate.

Xian service and education? 24 years in evangelical Christianity, served in various ministries as a grunt worker or leader, and earned a MA in Pastoral Studies from seminary.

Seeking God in the wilderness? In 2007 I walked 500 miles across northern Spain on the ancient Camino Frances pilgrimage trail in part as a last-ditch effort to "hear the voice of God." By the end of my trek I was twenty pounds lighter and an agnostic; later became an atheist.

All you have, Egor, is an internally constructed belief system wrapped around the idea of a supreme being as set forth by the Christian religion. If you were born in Iraq, you'd probably be a Muslim insurgent; in India, a Hindu apologist; in Japan a Shinto judo practitioner. Each persona could make the same claims to divine awareness and interaction based on intense feelings, cultural identification, and a holy-writings-based presuppositional web.

I can relate because I was once like you - all my roads led to Christ. But two things eventually snapped me out of it: 1) an inability to stop asking questions, and 2) travel, which gave me a first-hand glimpse into cultures that were doing just fine without a god. I was open to wherever the evidence took me, and in the end it delivered me from mystic faith and into the arms of rational thought.

So hey - keep synthesizing the gospels into whatever form makes sense to you (just don't add to or subtract from them - per Revelations, those are naughty ways to go), but keep in mind you are wasting your time. I wouldn't follow the Xian version of god anymore even if he existed, but I don't believe he does. It was all wish fulfillment based on a system created by unscientific Bronze-aged shamans who needed a framework to explain reality and control people.