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The Makuta were created by Mata Nui, but shadow is a natural property of antidermis, probably.

I just imagine it's a thing to regulate light, like if the internal lighting of the robot got too harsh or too bright, then a being of Shadow could help out and dim the lights so everyone could keep working.

Well, why was there Light? :oIn all honesty, I don't see why not. Assuming you mean inner Shadow (as Shadow was not created as a Toa/Matoran element and was only entrusted to Makuta as an actual power), the way I've always thought of it is this: Shadow is not "evil," and Light is not "good." Instead, they were a part of the programming: "inner Shadow" was coding specifying destruction (demolition, if you will), and "inner Light" was coding specifying creation. As such, draining a being of his, her, or its inner light would leave nothing but the "demolition" code left, driving them to destroy. Since we percieve wanton destruction as "evil" (and not without reason), it gave the appearance that Shadow was evil.

Edited by Meta-Mind, Apr 04 2013 - 09:32 PM.

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BZPRPG TIME, where you could have one post talk about dinner, and the next about lunch.

Time is beyond relative here.

There's no reason not to put lasers in the palms of planet-sized robots. In fact, if I had my own planet-sized robot, palm lasers would be one of my first upgrades. It's good for self-defense if you're attacked by something big.

In that alternate universe the Makuta were still good and yet the still carried the shadow element. I think that shadow as an element was crated by one of the GBs but then Makuta could have simply betrayed Mata Nui in the main universe. But I don't think that shadow was meant to be an 'evil' element. But rather it became associated with 'evil' as the Makuta became evil.

In that alternate universe the Makuta were still good and yet the still carried the shadow element. I think that shadow as an element was crated by one of the GBs but then Makuta could have simply betrayed Mata Nui in the main universe. But I don't think that shadow was meant to be an 'evil' element. But rather it became associated with 'evil' as the Makuta became evil.

Light couldent exist without shadow so if the GB's wanted to make light they had to make shadows. of cource this leads to the question that if the GB's r all powerful couldent they just re wright physics?

food for though

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As long as there is one bionicle fan out there there is still hope for bionicle to return. Keep faith. Bionicle is amazing.

Well I think shadow is just a natural byproduct of light in the matoran universe. i mean if you have a campfire it will cast shadows.

Actually, the light will only cast shadows if there is something in the way of the light. Maybe the only reason that shadow exists is because A. The element of light exists and has those that can wield it, and B. because the makuta are there to wield the power of shadow.

Vital to keep in mind that the GBs did not imagine that their creations would have freewill, and without freewill, there can't be evil. Shadow energy is simply an element that absorbs light, so it's no more inherently evil (on its own) than cold energy of Toa of Ice (which absorbs heat). So under the design as the GBs intended it, shadow definitely would have been just another element.

However, it's not on its own due to the inner light/shadow thing. For that, I agree with the construction/demolition interpretation. Shadow as an element can be tied to this or unrelated, depending on where you get it from (a tool power of shadow for example will not likely be 'evil' but a Matoran with that element would be inherently demolition-oriented, under that interpretation, so were not needed.

Alternatively, the shadow element and associated "bad-sounding" powers can be thought of as "extreme measures for extreme circumstances" if need be.

Well I think shadow is just a natural byproduct of light in the matoran universe. i mean if you have a campfire it will cast shadows.

Actually, the light will only cast shadows if there is something in the way of the light. Maybe the only reason that shadow exists is because A. The element of light exists and has those that can wield it, and B. because the makuta are there to wield the power of shadow.

In those terms perhaps the makuta are the objects blocking or being in the way of the light. Light=justice Makuta=crime Shadow=the result of the crimes

Well I think shadow is just a natural byproduct of light in the matoran universe. i mean if you have a campfire it will cast shadows.

Actually, the light will only cast shadows if there is something in the way of the light. Maybe the only reason that shadow exists is because A. The element of light exists and has those that can wield it, and B. because the makuta are there to wield the power of shadow.

In those terms perhaps the makuta are the objects blocking or being in the way of the light. Light=justice Makuta=crime Shadow=the result of the crimes

It's not that kind of shadow. What "blocks" light in this case is the elemental "shadow energy" that is actively absorbing light. So a metaphor with Makuta as a blocking object doesn't work. Especially since it existed as an element prior to freewill/evil (or rather, was intentionally designed by the GBs, with no awareness that evil could come into existence from it, so its evilness later has nothing to do with its ability to function).

Think of it like a sponge, basically, with the water being light. It soaks up light -- not the same as a "cast shadow."

Light couldent exist without shadow so if the GB's wanted to make light they had to make shadows. of cource this leads to the question that if the GB's r all powerful couldent they just re wright physics?

food for though

But they're not all-powerful.

Besides, I think he meant the element, not the physical existence of shadows.

In that alternate universe the Makuta were still good and yet the still carried the shadow element. I think that shadow as an element was crated by one of the GBs but then Makuta could have simply betrayed Mata Nui in the main universe. But I don't think that shadow was meant to be an 'evil' element. But rather it became associated with 'evil' as the Makuta became evil.

Um...Makuta did betray Mata Nui in the Main Universe. Also, the latter half of this post is pretty much confirmed, I think.

In that alternate universe the Makuta were still good and yet the still carried the shadow element. I think that shadow as an element was crated by one of the GBs but then Makuta could have simply betrayed Mata Nui in the main universe. But I don't think that shadow was meant to be an 'evil' element. But rather it became associated with 'evil' as the Makuta became evil.

Um...Makuta did betray Mata Nui in the Main Universe. Also, the latter half of this post is pretty much confirmed, I think.

Eeh, you know those Makuta had the powers of light? And not shadow

The Makuta had powers of light in the Melding alternate universe, not the main one. Mata Nui didn't even exist in the Melding Universe.

Makuta didn't originally have Shadow powers, they got them as a result of draining their inner light.

Actually, they did. In the Mutran Chronicles, Miserix uses Shadow powers on Teridax - and according to official bios provided on Miserix (or indeed, any Makuta), the Brotherhood only drained their light after Teridax's revolution.

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BZPRPG TIME, where you could have one post talk about dinner, and the next about lunch.

Time is beyond relative here.

There's no reason not to put lasers in the palms of planet-sized robots. In fact, if I had my own planet-sized robot, palm lasers would be one of my first upgrades. It's good for self-defense if you're attacked by something big.

Makuta didn't originally have Shadow powers, they got them as a result of draining their inner light.

Actually, they did. In the Mutran Chronicles, Miserix uses Shadow powers on Teridax - and according to official bios provided on Miserix (or indeed, any Makuta), the Brotherhood only drained their light after Teridax's revolution.

I think shadow was a vital substance in antidermis.

Well, shadow is important to protodermic beings too, but I agree. I look at it like this (not entirely sure this is correct, but it's my theory): Makuta had shadow powers due to being antidermis, because for whatever reason (I have some ideas why but I'll save that for another topic) it's part of the function of antidermis, but they also had moral light and moral shadow. Now, when a being drains moral light, they gain new shadow powers. And when a being drains moral shadow, they get light powers (this is apparently Umbra's state of existence).

So, the main dimension Makuta had shadow already, but when they drained moral light, got a bit more.

The alternate Makuta had shadow powers, and drained moral shadow, so they got light powers.

Although it's probably already been said, the element of Shadow (which isn't exactly like shadow as we know it) is there for pretty much the same reason as all the other elements. Most likely because of it's function purposes, like being able to create temporary objects from pretty much nothing. It wasn't until the Makuta rebelled that it gained it's negative moral connotations. If all the Makuta had natural Water powers, then the element Water would probably have the same negative light that Shadow does now.

Although it's probably already been said, the element of Shadow (which isn't exactly like shadow as we know it) is there for pretty much the same reason as all the other elements. Most likely because of it's function purposes, like being able to create temporary objects from pretty much nothing. It wasn't until the Makuta rebelled that it gained it's negative moral connotations. If all the Makuta had natural Water powers, then the element Water would probably have the same negative light that Shadow does now.

oh no...

was that a pun?

I disagree on some points here, because you're forgetting the role of inner light and inner shadow. Makuta do not have inner water. Also, you could say that a being drained of all inner light, even under the GB-intended design, could be "negative", but more in a practical sense as they'd only be good at destroying things (under the construction/demolition theory, anyways). Even without that, I would say it began whenever the MU inhabitants became fully sapient, with true freewill, thus enabling evil. That may have happened quite a bit before the Makuta rebelled.

Also not sure it's quite right to describe it pretty much the same as the other elements, considering the GBs intentionally did not make Matoran to naturally have that association. In a sense, though.

Agreed on the function point though, and obviously it gained even more negative cultural connotations after they rebelled. I imagine for a time people could have pointed to the Makuta (some of them anyways ) as evidence against the idea, which may have started earlier, that shadow is evil. That probably changed, at least in Metru Nui, at the time of the Archives Massacre.

[color=rgb(0,0,0);][font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"]I disagree on some points here, because you're forgetting the role of inner light and inner shadow. Makuta do not have inner water. Also, you could say that a being drained of all inner light, even under the GB-intended design, could be "negative", but more in a practical sense as they'd only be good at destroying things (under the construction/demolition theory, anyways). Even without that, I would say it began whenever the MU inhabitants became fully sapient, with true freewill, thus enabling evil. That may have happened quite a bit before the Makuta rebelled.[/color][/font]

I thought about inner light/shadow, but didn't include it as I was more focused on when the Makuta still had at least some moral light, and thus lacking it wouldn't come into play with their Shadow powers.. I agree on the point about a being without any moral light being considered practically negative, as said, being more part of the demolition crew. The negative moral connotations against the element most likely did start when sapience was achieved, even though there was always a slight sort of “distaste” for it, seeing as Creation was a virtue, and Matoran, even non-sapient, would probably not too kindly upon those who were part of something opposite of it.

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"][color=rgb(0,0,0);]Also not sure it's quite right to describe it pretty much the same as the other elements, considering the GBs intentionally did not make Matoran to naturally have that association. In a sense, though. :shrugs:Agreed on the function point though, and obviously it gained even more negative cultural connotations after they rebelled. I imagine for a time people could have pointed to the Makuta (some of them anyways ) as evidence against the idea, which may have started earlier, that shadow is evil. That probably changed, at least in Metru Nui, at the time of the Archives Massacre.[/color][/font]

I do agree on the connotation aspect of that, where different events could certainly alter the MU species' view on the element, even before sapience. Though I still believe that the same could be said for all elements, say if a fire burned down half of Metru Nui, beings with Fire-based powers would probably be seen differently.Although, I suppose not as much as Shadow, seeing as it could quite possibly be made only for it's destructive abilities, thus why beings who are drained of their moral light (therefor part of a demolition-based squad or whatever) gain Shadow powers to help them in that area.

Shadow seemed almost to be a victim of circumstance, where as the same association to evil could have happened to any element should the GBs have decided that Plasma or Magnetism was better as a tool for “demolition”.

Of course, this is assuming that the whole inner light/darkness is there because they needed a construction and demolition crew.

I've got another theory, not sure if it was mentioned before. About the light casting shadow thing, maybe the GBs thought that it could be a somewhat useful power/thing and turned it into a power, not knowing what damage it would cause(then again, they made a lot of mistakes).

So do you think that all inhabitants in the MU can do this? Or is this "moral/elemental alignment" exclusive to beings of light and shadow?

Or are you saying that Umbra was a Makuta?

-Elrond

No no, all MU inhabitants (that we know of, not sure if it applies to Tren Krom) have inner light and shadow. Umbra is a unique titan created that way by the GBs, but Greg confirmed that anybody could become like that (although I don't think they know how). And any of them can drain light (or have it drained), like the Shadow Matoran.

What purpose did the element of Shadow have when the GB's created the Matoran?

Much like any other theory based on the Bible and works of literature like John Milton's work, shadows (or darkness) was there from the beginning. But it wasn't specifically created or crafted, it was and like an evolutionary form of light. The darkness that was the void was there as a nothingness, but the darkness from one's evil actions is from his twisted heart that rebelled or was hurt in some way. Main point: Shadow wasn't created, it was there the minute light got in front of something.

Actually, BIONICLE has Elemental Shadow as a special type of "anti-light", able to counter-act Elemental Light and to persist even in broad daylight until the energy dissipates. In BIONICLE, shadow isn't always just the absence of light, like how "cold energy" is a thing that is present and can be absorbed in their world.

Someone would need to stop the Av-Matoran if they decided to put Mata Nui to sleep and take over the universe, wouldn't they?

This so much.

Also, if the all the MUians had a balence of inner light and shadow, Mata Nui would probably need a balence of inner light and shadow as well. So he could study both good and evil beings on other planets.