If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

I really liked this chapter. As it turns out, Madara was a victim of prejudice but also his genetics. Without the sharingan, he would have been much better person. Although one can argue about about just what exactly does the sharingan do to make people "evil". I mean, Itachi boosted his sharingan up to Mangekyo and yet he was above his hatred.

Why wasnt Madara ? Was it Madaras cocky and self-centered attitude that the sharingan "exploited" and turned him evil ? Or maybe there is a way of controling the hatred, through some sort of willpower or meditation techniques ? I would really like if Kishi atleast touched on this subject and tell us maybe how Itachi battled his hatred.

The seminal event in Madara's life was the loss of his little brother. If Uchiha Itachi had similarly lost Sasuke, who knows how he might have reacted. As it were, he got his eye boost from the loss of Shisui.

Never-the-less, I don't think an Uchiha is doomed to hatred and evil, he or she can overcome it, as we saw Madara was so very close to overcoming his hatred and may have even done so if he hadn't beem rejected by 1) The Village, 2) The Uchiha clan.

The rejection by the clan and the village themselves should not be taken lightly. Those two rejections probably further activated the Sharingan Chakra in his brain. In a sense Death = Loss = Rejection =lost love or loved one.

Ironically, the Wiping Out of the Uchiha clan predicted by Madara was performed by Madara's Stand-In...Tobi. I am still perplexed as to why Tobi chose to Kill the Uchihas, he had no grudge against them like he lied to Sasuke. Did Madara command him to do so? Or was he just insane and over the edge with his World of Gengutsu Cure for everything, that he rationalised that killing them was Okay? I think that Kishi may have reall wanted to Make Tobi = Madara, hence some of the thiogs he said.

back to the present, Hashirama wanted to rid Sasuke of his anger and evil intent, so perhaps Sasuke is not too far gone. As we can see, the truth is that the village of Konoha is not dominated by Senjus, and there is no Senju vs Uchiha dogma/grudge. Tobirama did not trust the Uchiha and h ended up making matters worse, but in the End, Tobi is as much responsible for their deaths as Danzo or Hiruzen (both non Senjus) were.

@ Zero, The "Rumor" that Senjus were all about Love while the Uchiha were all about Jutsu, was Propagated and Reinforced by Tobi, who is an Uchiha. Hence it is simply not a Senju device to stain the Uchiha name.

Also, even if Hiruzen's mother was a Senju, his clan was still Sarutobi. I would not be surprised if some senju, akamichi, or hiruzen wives were Uchiha. Konoha seems to be a place where clans could freely mix. I think this was part of the reason for the Village being formed.

I am not perfect andI defy you to prove otherwise Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

^ The Uchiha were segregated and pretty much put into concentration camp/prison by Tobirama, it was simply named differently so that the public wouldn't notice, but the Uchiha did, that's the one of the reasons for the Coup. At the beginning the might have been able to mix freely, but at that point they already had families, the moment their children were old enough to start their own, the Hokage was already Tobirama.

It's possible that Tobi & Madara had to diminish the possibility of someone with powerful ocular power that could oppose them, by simply not being affected by the genjutsu. It seems as if the the jutsu is not a strong genjutsu in it itself (it's rather about the range and control within), so if an Uchiha with a Sharingan wanted to reject that world, then he probably would be able to (remember that Obito accepted the genjutsu, so has Kakashi's KB that fooled the Itachi impostor, when they normally shouldn't be affected by it).

Technically all dreams should have been fulfilled within the Dream World, so most people wouldn't try to reject it, likely most of them wouldn't be even able to, but the Uchiha, as mentioned by Tobirama, are too wild of a variable to leave them alone.

If you ask me, making Madara the Hokage was a good idea. It's likely that he was better at the desk and strategy/tactics and the like than Hashirama, plus it would give him a good purpose and later on recognition from the village. After all, Madara was a good and caring person in reality, he could truly be a great all father to everyone in the village. The world couldn't accept him, so he rejected the world as well.

I wonder when the Hyuga will come into play. Perhaps they were invited by Tobirama, in order to replace the Uchiha that he couldn't trust ?

Hokage are no villains, but I still believe Tobirama set him down a path of "false" realization. Also, his jutsu is the cause of a lot of evil, loss, and hardship modern day. Tobirama is his own man, but I believe his father had a very negative influence on him, and in turn was the catalyst for many unseen events. However, these events shaped a story worth reading.

I also wonder about something I mentioned a long time ago. We knew that almost all known clans of the leaf village today survived that era, up until the present. Excluding the Uchiha of course. But it really makes me think if the Senju had a similar fate. I remember some tried to justify it by saying they mixed (Which we know they did -Mito and Hashirama-) but the change in name is only valid for the women of the clan. What happened to all the men? It seems as though there is no known Senju alive today.

Did they pull a Uchiha and abandon their clan to become part of another? Even still, The Senju were top dog. How could they be alive, and have no member be recognized for their talent and power?

^ Well, Naruto's surname is after his mother, so perhaps every/most of the Senju descendants did/has the same. Just look how people hunt for Hashirama's cells, the name Senju is a bigger target than the title of Hokage (you gain much for so little work, compared to hunting Hokages). The Hyuga's were sought out a few times as well.

Well, technically, Tobirama is a Necromancer and they are statistically (though not everyone) evil, so yeah, not to mention his other deeds, that are especially atrocious to certain populace of people with glowing red eyes. I have to wonder how does he see other Doujutsu bloodline limits clans. Is he so prejudiced towards them as well ? IIRC, the Hyugas have their own concentration camp*ehm I meant district, right ?

True indeed, but his was for a specific reason: though I forget what it was. But i believe it was for his protection if memory serves. You have a point though. But in the same sense, I find it hard to believe that if they are alive, that none of their shinobi would be recognized for their talents. I mean Sasuke, the only Uchiha left, was clearly the top shinobi when he attended the academy. The same goes for his brother Itachi. Other than Tsunade, Naruto, and Karin, their seem to be no existing links between the Senju and the modern ninja world.

Lastly, with all we have, it seems obvious that most of the powerful ninja in Naruto come from a specific clan that is clearly not Senju: with seemingly no relation to the Senju in any way.

I don't feel like I could fault Tobirama for giving the Uchiha their own Area of Konoha, as someone else has said, The Hyuuga and maybe even the Sarutobi and Akamichi have their own reserved land, in Fact We DO Know For Certain that the Nara Clan has a reserved area.

Where Tobirama failed was in making them the Military Police exclusively. I think that the Uchiha would have isolated themselves anyhow in order to keep the Sharingan genes pure.

I am not perfect andI defy you to prove otherwise Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

Your missing the point a bit in that it wasnt that they had their own special area but that they were isolated at the furthest part of the village and kept at arms length to discriminate against them. Tobirama didnt trust the Uchiha and this dangerous attitude is what lead to the current reality. It became a self fulfilling prophecy.

This is why Hashirama was trying to make Madara the Hokage to instill the trust of the villagers in him so he could learn to trust and believe in himself and them as well. Thus curing him of his hatred by giving him purpose and trust.

You have to remember the Uchiha clan killed his other older brother and possibly/most likely his dad too. He was weary of a clan that his clan had been to war with for years.

Hashirama bumped into Madara and became friends with him: A.) without really knowing it, and B.) before their father's found out who they were and tried to have them assinate each other. Put Tobirama in Hashi's place and he might have become friends with Maddy too. Neither one was looking for a fight when they met. Hashi was sad and i think Maddy was too.

There is no garauntee that Hashi and Maddy would become friends if the first thing they did when they met was give their surnames. It would have been VOTE, 25 or so years prematurely. Without Kyubii and Mukoton, which equals boring!

Also, i think we've seen some current Senju's, although watered down versions. Sure, no one has the surname Senju, but come on, there a lot of clans that havent been mentioned in this flashback that could be possible. I wont name them because I dont know the surnames like that, but you could guess Lee's clan, Kiba's clan, Shino's. I could see how life/nature could relate to each. Oh and dont forget Sakura, who's clan symbol is similar to Sage mode Hasirama forehead mark.

Anyway, good chapter. Madara was full of excuses even back then. He could have been the "Shadow" warrior/guardian for the leaf. Which i think Saskue will become. He'll be leary of the village, but he'll protect it from the shadows. Itachi style!