Peter Schneider Interview 3 with Shunryu SuzukiThis is a verbatim interview/lecture during the regular Sunday lecture at Sokoji on Bush St.
in SF. I leave it exactly as it is in the verbatim archive. - DC (1-19-07)

[Tape starts with background group
chatter. Then the mike is set up, and more group chatter follows. Then Peter
Schneider asks Suzuki-rōshi a question.]

Peter Schneider: I would like to ask Rōshi a question for the Wind
Bell that I was going to type—tape just with him, but I think it's
a—would interest you, so—. It will appear in the next Wind Bell. And
the question is to have Rōshi talk about Mrs. [Miss] Ransom.

Suzuki-rōshi: No. [Laughter.] I must tell you she was my old, old
girlfriend [loud laughter].

Peter Schneider: I'll have some water. [Loud laughter.]

Suzuki-rōshi: Almost, but not quite [laughter]. When I was young,
even from a boy, I couldn't [wasn't] satisfied with Buddhist life, you know,
because of many reasons. So I wanted to—to be a good teacher when I was very
young, and I wanted to [1-2 words unclear] people who—who did not priest—did
not respect priests so much. But I—at that time, my ambition may be directed
to wrong direction [?].

But anyway, I made up my mind to leave my home and to study to practice
under strict teacher. So I went to my master's temple. And my master [Gyokujun
So-on] was a disciple of my father. And my father, when he was young, [was]
very strict with his disciples. And my master was one of the—his—my father's
disciple who [was] raised up in very, very strict way. And he was—my master
was always talking about my father's strictness with him. And I—that was
very, you know—that was hardest situation for me to accept, you know. My
master almost blaming of my father. "Your father," [tapping repeatedly] you
know, "raised me in this way." [Laughs.] That was very hard to—to listen to.
Anyway, this is not what I want to talk [about]. But—

So naturally, this kind of spirit I have all the way maybe I became—until
maybe thirty or more. After my master's death, I have not much feeling. That
kind of feeling changed into the—into opposite way, and I became very much—I
missed my master very much.

So when I was—when I was at school—college, I studied English pretty hard
to go to abroad [laughs]. I have no idea of America or Hawai'i or—anyway, if
I am going to some country, I thought I have to speak English. And I studied
English pretty hard when I was a student. And when I was at Komazawa
University, Miss Ransom was teacher of conversation.

Once a week, we—Miss Ransom taught us conversation. And after I finished
her class I attended English course lecture. And meantime, Miss Ransom found
me and asked me to be—to help her in shopping, or when some Japanese come,
or when she had student—her private students. Of course, I couldn't help her
so well, but I tried pretty hard. And at last she asked me to stay [at] her
home with two more students who were helping her in shopping and
conversation with Japanese people.

But the other students, Kundo and—and I don't know the—I forgot one more
student's name—Kundo was student of Komazawa. And one more student is from
Bundikadaima before that school was normal school—normal high school. And
that school changed their system and became a university. And the other
students were studying English—English course students. And both Kundo and
that student left Miss Ransom's home. I was only one student who helped her.
And meantime I—there were many interesting stories between Mrs. [Miss]
Ransom and I. Don't be so inquisitive [laughs, laughter].

No, no, no.

Student: Is it alcoholic? [S.R. may have picked up a cup of water.]

Suzuki-rōshi: Hmm?

She was—before she come to Japan, she was a tutor of last emperor of
China, Sentō—Emperor Sentō, Emperor of Manchuria. And at that time, Japan
became more and more ambitious, and trying to [for] some chance to fight
with that northern part of China. Emperor Sentō's capitol is in—I don't know
what is the name of the city right now. At that time it was Choshun. And
when he—the Emperor was there, he—she was a tutor of the Emperor. And she is
a daughter of very—I don't know who he is, but [he was] very famous naval
general [admiral].

She was a [had a] very strict character, and at the same time she
complained always about Japanese people: at school what kind of things
happened, and at the car what kinds of things happened. She was always
complained about Japan. I was only person who listened to her complain
[laughter]. But I have also many complaint with her. For an instance, she
had a beautiful Buddha—sitting Buddha as big as this which was given to her
by the Emperor. But she put—it was all right for her to put it in
tokonoma—on tokonoma, but she put her shoes besides the Buddha
[laughs, laughter]. That was tokonoma, you see. Tokonoma is a
place where we put some antique, or scroll, or some valuable things: object
of worship, or something like that. But she used to put her shoes as soon as
she come back from school, you know. That was very, you know, embarrassing
to me. But I didn't say anything, you know, but I offered, you know, tea
every morning with small cup like this, you know, putting it on—in front of
Buddha, and offered tea every morning [laughs]. She started to [be] amused
about me, and—but she didn't ask anything. And I didn't say anything about
it or about her shoes [laughs, laughter]. Maybe this kind of, you know,
silent cold war [laughs, laughter] last maybe for two–three weeks, and I was
waiting for a chance to start hot war [laughs, laughter], as my English was
not so good, you know.

Dan Welch: How about the matches, Rōshi?

Suzuki-rōshi: Mm?

Dan Welch: The matches.

Suzuki-rōshi: So I have to study pretty hard, you know, preparing for
the polishing the weapon, you know, to speak. And I, you know, studied some
important word to speak about it [laughs, laughter]. And when one of her
friend visited her, she—they were talking about my funny, you know—things,
you know, about me. "She is—he is very strange Buddhist, offering tea
[laughs] for the wooden figure, sometime offering," you know, "incense."
They were talking about it. I could understand what they were talking about.
And he started, you know—his friend started to put matches, you know, in
Buddha's mudrā [loud laughter]. And he left, you know, sometime
matches [and] sometime, you know, in—cigarette [laughter] in incense holder.

Student: Oh, no.

Suzuki-rōshi: Still, hot war didn't start. And at last, you know, I
don't know how the hot war started, but she asked me about, you know, about
the figure— Buddha's figure. [S]he thought Buddhism is a kind of idol
worship. So I explained it, you know. It was very difficult, but I could
manage to explain why we worship wooden image or Buddha or what is the real
Buddha—maybe about Dharmakāya, Samboghakāya, or Nirmānakāya Buddha.

She was rather amazed, you know [laughs]. She didn't know Buddhism is so
profound. And she started to become interested in Buddhism. And soon she
converted to Buddhism. And she start to study Buddhism, because if she want
to study Buddhism, there were many professors, and some professors could
speak some English.

So [1-2 words] she had—in one year, I think, she had a pretty good
understanding of Buddhism. And one day she took me to the downtown to buy
some incense and some incense bowl, and she started to offer it. I felt very
good. At the same time, I could have some confidence in our teaching, in
Buddhism. And in that way, I thought I had a kind of confidence in—not
"propagate," but—in making them—making Caucasian people to understand
Buddhism. Or I thought for Caucasian, Buddhism—Buddha's teaching may be more
suitable than [for] Japanese, you know. You know, when—for Japanese to study
Buddhism in its true sense is pretty difficult because of the wrong
tradition or misunderstanding of Buddhism. It is difficult to change their
misunderstanding once they have that kind of wrong idea of Buddhism. But for
Caucasian who doesn't know anything about Buddhism, like we paint in [on]
white paper, it is much easier to give right understanding of true Buddhism.
I think that is the, you know, that kind of experience I had with Miss
Ransom resulted in my coming to America, I think.

And as soon as I finished my schooling, I asked my teacher—my master, to
go to America or Hawai'i or some—to go to anywhere abroad. But he became
furious [laughs], and she [he] wouldn't allow me to go. So I couldn't come
to America. And I gave up my notion of coming to America for a long, long
time until I forget all about it. But ten years ago, at last I came to
America.

And five years—fifteen years ago, actually, I had chance to come to
America. But because I didn't finish fixing our main building [at Rinso-in],
which was my duty left by my master, so I thought I have to finish his order
first, so I didn't come to America at that time. And maybe five or six years
later I had second chance to come to America, and I decided to come to
America. It was pretty hard to come, but anyway I managed to come to
America.

After I finished my schooling, I went to Eihei-ji. And Miss Ransom came
to Eihei-ji and stayed for one month at Eihei-ji, and sitting there, and
practicing pretty well. And when I went to—two years after, I went to
Kasuisai monastery. At that time, she came to Kasuisai and stayed for one
month also. And she—and then she went to China again: Tientsin—Tensin—Ten?—Tientsin,
yeah, near Peking. And she went to England. Once in a while I wrote to her,
and she wrote to me, but since I came to America I haven't written so often.
She wanted to write something about me, you know: various experience we had
between us, you know. And she asked me to give some date or event. But that
is too much, you know, so since then I didn't write to her, you know,
because it was too much. Whenever I write to her she asked me many things,
you know, which is almost impossible to write her back. So I didn't. And,
you know, she may be very angry.

At that time [Grahame] Petchey was in England, and he started—he started
Zen group at her home, you know.

Peter Schneider: Her home! I didn't know that.

Suzuki-rōshi: [Laughs.] So whenever Petchey went to her home, she
[he] was the one who listened to her complaint [laughs, laughter]. So I—I
know her very well, you know. Even though she complains, it doesn't mean so
bad. So, you know, I thought it may be all right. But that was my mistake,
you know. She passed away last year, before I write to her.

I trusted her very much, and he—she trusted me so much. So whether I
write to her or I don't doesn't make much difference, I thought, but I don't
know. As long as she is alive it is all right. But now, I think, I regret a
little bit about my not writing to her.

Anyway, I think she was a good Buddhist. After she went to Tientsin, she
sent me a picture of same Buddha, you know, who get into trouble between us,
you know. And she made—she enshrined the Buddha in the wall where there is
some—something like big hole in the wall like this [gestures], you know, and
she said she is offering incense every day [laughs].

Dan Welch: What happened to the shoes, Rōshi? Did she ever take them
off?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yes, of course [laughter]. And I taught her how to
clean up tokonoma.

One day she told me to buy—to get some daffodil bulb, you know. I bought
pretty big one for her, but she didn't [wasn't] satisfied with them. "Oh,
this is too small. Get me some big ones," you know. I tried, you know, to
find best daffodils in Tōkyō, at least in Shibuya district. I visited
several florists, and I got the largest bulb we can get—I can get. But she
didn't [wasn't] satisfied with it. So she makes me very angry [laughs]. So I
bought some onion [laughing, ongoing loud laughter]—buy. "Here, I got
very big one. Here they are." And I left, you know, her room. But I was
careful, you know, watching her—what did happen. She opened it and saw the
big bulbs, you know. "Oh, this is very good!" she said. I felt very
good, [but] at the same time scared of him [her], so I ran away from the
room, you know—from outside of the room.

And at last—she didn't like onion, you know, at all. Of course, that is
onion so it smells [laughter]. "Oh! This is onion!" she shouted, and
looking around for me. But I wasn't there [laughter]. But I couldn't help
burst into laughter—a big laughter, so she found out—she found me out. With
onion in her hand, she started to chase after me. She was a big, tall, girl
[?], you know. So I went to upstairs, the second floor, and from the second
floor to the roof. Something—that kind of thing happens pretty many times.

I had to come back [to] her home before ten o'clock. But it was rather
difficult, you know, to come back before ten always. So when I was late, you
know, I—I know how to open the doors. You know, Japanese door is sliding
doors. The lock is between two door, you know. Lock is go this way,
you know, to—like a nail driving down, a nail for two doors. So it is not
possible to, you know, open this way, but you—if you lift two doors
[laughter], it is quite easy to take out two doors [laughter]. And I sneaked
into the—my bedroom and slept.

And at last she found me, you know, what I was doing. And she, you know,
didn't trust me any more [laughs], and she didn't trust the safety of the
Japanese building any more. And she determined to move out from that—from
that house, you know. And I was told to find out some good safe building,
which was almost impossible, you know. Almost all the buildings are Japanese
buildings. If it is Western building, we have to pay a lot of money. So I
gave up to find out that kind of safe building.

But it was good for me to go out with some reason to find—finding out
some good apartment. And sometime I went to barber shop, or sometime I
visited my friends, you know, instead of finding out some good apartment.
And at last I decided to ask some good, old carpenter to explain, you know,
how safe Japanese building are from thieves and how to fix the lock you
know, so that no one can get in. And I—we could convince her not to move
out.

As she was a English woman, she is—she doesn't—even though rotten old
knife, she wouldn't throw them away. And she—sometime she asked me to get
[them] polished. But in Japan no one can polish any knife for anyone, you
know. If she has carpenters or gardeners, she may—he may do it, but she
wanted me to get [it] polished immediately. That was a big problem for me.
And—and she said, "In England," you know, "if you go to a department store
we can get them polished up immediately. So go to Mitsukoshi and ask to get
[it] polished." Her idea was ridiculous for Japanese people, you know, to
polish. It was pretty beautiful, good knife. But even so, no one can polish
it. "Oh, this is old," Japanese store may say. "This is very old. Why don't
you get new one?" You know, that is what they may say.

When—do you know Japanese ofuro? When the, you know, cover of the
ofuro will easily be get rotten, so she asked me to get lid only. But
that was also difficult, you know. If I—unless we buy whole thing, they
wouldn't sell the wooden ofuro—bathtub—wooden bathtub. I think
English way may be something quite different from American way.

That's all [laughter]. Nothing more than this.

Student A: Rōshi?

Suzuki-rōshi: Hai.

Student A: She was the first—Miss Ransom was your first Westerner you
helped to convert to Buddhism?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yes.

Student A: Who was the second person—

Suzuki-rōshi: Second?

Student A: —after her?

Suzuki-rōshi: —after her. Maybe Jean Ross or some old students of Zen
Center. Since then I had—until I come to America, I had no chance to see any
Caucasian or any foreigners—gaijin.

Student B: Rōshi?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yes.

Student B: How did you get an idea to teach Caucasian people long
time before you'd met any Caucasian students?

Suzuki-rōshi: How? Just, you know, I visited her home when it is very
hot, just because I want to have a—some cold drink, I visited her [laughs].
It was so hot, you know. [Sentence finished. Tape turned over.]

… without she will give us something, you know, some drink or watermelon
or something like that. She gave me a big, you know, watermelon, cutting in
two, and putting some sugar in it, and with big spoon she offered half [the]
melon, big one.

Peter Schneider: And you determined to come to America [loud
laughter]?

Student C: Hey, it's the watermelon, man. That's what it is.

Suzuki-rōshi: Oh, maybe so because of watermelon.

Student D: "Watermelon Zen."

Suzuki-rōshi: "Watermelon Zen."

Dan Welch: If I remember right, Rōshi, there was another Zen master
in Kyoto who got caught by a watermelon [laughter].

Student E: What's that story, Dan?

Suzuki-rōshi: Dan, don't you—it may be good idea to send a picture of
watermelon, you know—picture of Zen Center student eating watermelon
[laughs, laughter]. Some Zen teacher like me may come [laughs, laughter].

Dan: Publish it in the Dai-hōrin.

Suzuki-rōshi: She was very tall, maybe as tall as [Grahame] Petchey,
you know. Very tall girl.

Student E: Petchey's about 6'-2", I think.

Suzuki-rōshi: [Laughs, laughter throughout paragraph.] She used to
put white, big hat like this, and she was very tall, and I was very small.
When we go to shopping, I have to almost run. Because she had no one
to talk, you know, to talk with, and as soon as she come back from school,
she start to talk with me in fireplace. So I was always studying in
fireplace—in the corner of fireplace. I couldn't study anything, you know. I
couldn't have any study—any homework, so I decided to buy big, big screen. I
told her for Japanese it is necessary to use, you know, big screen. So she
bought it for me, and so I was very pleased—just to prevent, you know, her
talk. But she was so tall! Taller than screen—watching down. Didn't
work at all. I gave up. Very big.

Another professor, Sugioka, would visited our home many times—maybe twice
a week or weekend. She was—she—he is—according to her, he is a big scholar
in English, you know. He knows more vocabulary—he has more vocabulary than
Miss Ransom herself, she said. And he was—she was very much proud of him.
But he was also very short—as short as me, you know. I don't know why she
liked so short people [laughter]. The man who translated Uchiyama-rōshi's
book, you know, small book. Someone said it was not so good translation.

Student E: Which book is that, Rōshi?

Suzuki-rōshi: Small.

Student E: Uchiyama-rōshi?

Suzuki-rōshi: Mm-hmm. Palms.

Student E: With the hands?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yes. With hands.

Student E: Oh. Why did you leave her?

Suzuki-rōshi: Hmm?

Student E: Why did you leave her—did you leave her?

Suzuki-rōshi: Because I, you know, because I have to finish my
thesis. So five—six months before I finish my schooling, I left her. And she
went to Tientsin—went back to China again. She was a good friend of Premiere
Yoshida. She is—he is a famous premiere who signed the treaty after the war—

Student E: Russian war [of 1905] or—?

Suzuki-rōshi: —treaty of—at San Francisco, you know, treaty of
complete surrender. He is the premiere who signed.

Dan: Rōshi, what did you write your thesis in?

Suzuki-rōshi: Hmm?

Dan: Rōshi, what did you write your thesis about?

Suzuki-rōshi: About Shōbōgenzō. Study of Shōbōgenzō,
focusing on "Raihai-tokuzui"—the chapter of the meaning of bow.

Student C: What?

Student F: "Vow" or "bow"?

Suzuki-rōshi: Hmm?

Student C: Bow?

Student E: Bow.

Suzuki-rōshi: Bow.

Student E: Is that because your master bowed so much?

Suzuki-rōshi: Maybe so. I didn't notice it. Maybe so. I was the last
one who submit my thesis to the office [laughter], because I was too busy,
you know. Most student finish his d- [partial word]—unit, you know. Maybe
most students leave three or four units for last year, but I had twelve—I
had twelve units more to go. So I was very busy in writing thesis and
finishing twelve units. That was why I bought screen, but it didn't work
[laughter].

Student F: Rōshi, could you tell us something of what you wrote your
thesis on?

Suzuki-rōshi: Hmm?

Student F: Could you tell us something about your thesis?

Suzuki-rōshi: Study of Shōbōgenzō, focusing on the fascicle of
bow.

Student F: Could you tell us what you wrote?

Suzuki-rōshi: Too long.

Student F: In—in a capsule? In [laughter]—

Suzuki-rōshi: Essence? You have to bow anyway [laughter]. That is why
you have to bow nine times, you know, maybe. My thesis was very good, you
know, but my oral question was not so good, you know, because I didn't study
so much. Some other questions?

Student G: Rōshi?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yes.

Student G: A few years ago, at a lecture at that—in the basement of
that big church—

Suzuki-rōshi: Mm-hmm.

Student G: —that big church downtown on [2-3 words unclear], you were
giving a lecture—no, Dick was talking, and you were just listening.

Suzuki-rōshi: Uh-huh.

Student G: And you had your hands—your mudrā upside down. The
right—the right hand on top of the left hand.

Suzuki-rōshi: Uh-huh.

Student G: And then sometimes—and then I was sitting right in the
front row, and I was staring at your hands. And you weren't looking at me,
I don't think, but you fixed them, and you put the left back on top of the
right. But then you'd be listening to Dick, and your right would go back on
top [laughter]. And I—and I thought that something was strange was going on.
And I looked real hard, and you put your sleeves over your hands [laughter].
My question is, what were you up to [laughter]?

Suzuki-rōshi: That was your study [story?], then.

Student G: What?

Student E: "That was your study, then."

Suzuki-rōshi: Usually this is—I have not much feeling on this, so—.

Student E: Why not?

Suzuki-rōshi: Because I cut my finger from here to here. Sometime I
don't feel so good, you know, and I do like this [laughter].

Student E: Oh. He—he—he—he's doing this. See? Like this, though.

Suzuki-rōshi: You know, this finger. So if I don't feel so good, I do
like this and go back to the mudrā like [gesture]. Sometime I am
doing like this one.

Student H: Rōshi, do you still hear from some of your master's
disciples, or other Zen masters?

Suzuki-rōshi: Excuse me?

Student H: Some of—some of your master's disciples—

Suzuki-rōshi: Mm-hmm.

Student H: Who were studying with you. Do you still hear from them?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yes.

Student H: Uh-huh.

Suzuki-rōshi: My younger, you know, brother in dharma was taking care
of—once in a while after I left Rinso-in came to my temple and helped my boy
[Hoitsu-rōshi] or a priest who was there always.

Student H: There was a fire in your temple?

Suzuki-rōshi: Excuse me?

Student H: I didn't quite understand. There was a fire there?

Suzuki-rōshi: No, no. When you know, after I left my temple, you
know, there must be some qualified, you know, teacher in my temple [laughs,
laughter]. Someone like me must be there. So my brother in dharma was
formerly or officially responsible for my temple, but actually someone else
was always there. But another—my elder brother in dharma is now in the
temple which I enter for the first—after I finish my schooling—Zoun-in. And
then as soon as my master passed away, I took over my master's temple and my
elder brother, you know, took over my place.

So still we have three dharma—brother in dharma. And one is now—I don't
know what he is doing. He is not priest anymore. And we—I was actually the
youngest one. At that time there were four more disciples, and I—I was the
youngest one. And four disciples run away from my master because he was too
strict.

Student H: Could—could you give us some example of his strictness—of
what he did that was so strict?

Suzuki-rōshi: [Laughs.] You know, he is very, you know, unique
character. And he would sit in the corner of dark room, and when someone
enter his room he stares at him like this and without stopping eating
[laughter]. Most people [were] scared of him very much. Just to look at him
is good enough. Before he say something he would strike me—strike us—bam!
[Laughter.] A little like Tatsugami-rōshi also does. For Tatsugami-rōshi,
there is no need to speak English. His hand will speak fluently [laughter].

Student I: They'll laugh now—[laughter].

Suzuki-rōshi: And he's pretty humorous, you know, sometime—very much
humorous. And he was very good friend of us in some way. For an instance,
when we came back from village after finishing memorial service for our
members, three of our—three or four [of] our disciples—his disciples were
with him, and we are coming back to my temple. When we came to dark, you
know, dark slope, you know, he told us to take off—oh—told us to go ahead,
you know. "As you boys [are] wearing tabi, so may be better for you
to go first. I will—because I have no tabi, I will follow you," he
said. So we, you know, went back ahead of him. As soon as we arrive at our
temple, he told us to sit in front of him. "You boys sit here and listen to
me. When I don't wear tabi, why did you wear tabi?" That was
his, you know, question. "Why did you wear tabi? When I don't wear—"

Student H: What—what is turby?

Students: Tabi.

Suzuki-rōshi: Socks.

Student H: Oh.

Student J: White socks.

Suzuki-rōshi: "Moreover," you know, "when I told you," you know, "to
go ahead, you four boys went ahead of me without noticing that I have no
tabi. How about that? [Thumps several times.] You goose!" you
know. "You foolish boys!" He was very mad at us. You know, at that
time I took him very seriously, but I think—now I think—I think apparently
he was teasing us, you know. He was playing game with us. He was enjoying,
you know, our innocence [laughter]. "Sit here," and we four boys sit
[laughter]. We didn't know what will go on, you know. No one could figure
out what is—what was wrong with us [laughter].

[One day] when he was not at temple, one chicken died [laughs, laughter
throughout]. So we decided to eat it, taking off all the feathers. But it
was very difficult to cut, you know, with blunt temple knife. Very
difficult. So we ate only one leg. And rest of the chicken we buried. [We
recited?] small, you know, sūtra. Unfortunately, next morning my master
found it, you know, when he was weeding. But he didn't tell anything, you
know. That was the day before Obon festival. And after we, you know,
prepared altar for the various soul, we had dinner [?]. Tomorrow is, you
know—oh, that was August 13th when we have Obon festival. And
[at] breakfast time he told us, "I had a funny—very funny dream last night.
One-legged hen came to me—"

Student E: "One-legged hen said to me—"

Suzuki-rōshi: Yeah. "One-legged hen came to me and said, 'It—the
altar is too high for me. So please move it lower.' And the hen asked me,
'Do you have some good idea?' he asked us. All of us. All of us." We
couldn't see [look at?] him either. What he meant by that?

Student E: Obon festival is the festival for all spirits.

Dan Welch: The dead spirits.

Suzuki-rōshi: The dead spirits. The one—one-legged hen—hen
came to the altar, but he couldn't climb up.

Student K: The spirit of one dead hen, or—?

Student E: One-legged hen.

Suzuki-rōshi: One-legged hen, because we ate, you know, one leg and
buried, you know, the hen around the tree. And my master found out,
unfortunately. And he—he didn't say anything at that time. It was the day we
have Obon festival. And after—when we have breakfast, "I had a very funny
dream last night." [Laughter.] We were listening to him. One day [the hen]
came [to him], he said, so—[laughs, laughter].

Student E: Where did the chickens come from? [Laughter.]

Suzuki-rōshi: We were raising them. We were [4-8 words unclear], and
unfortunately one of them died.

Student E: They were at the temple?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yeah. So we ate [laughter] one only. Because it is too
difficult to cook it—cut it, so we gave up and buried it, you know, in the
garden.

Student E: So what did he say when you were like this, Rōshi?
[Probably gesturing.]

Suzuki-rōshi: I don't know. I don't remember, anyway, you know. We
have no words.

Student L: Was that all he ever said about it?

Suzuki-rōshi: Hmm?

Student L: Was that all he ever said about it?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yeah.

Dan Welch: Isn't that enough?

Suzuki-rōshi: That's enough, you know. [Laughter.] "Do you have some
idea to help him?"—that was what he said. We are not so alert students
anyway—disciple, you know, because we have no words for him. Hai.

Student M: Is he the one that kept some yokan [?] up on a very
high shelf?

Suzuki-rōshi: Yes. He is the—

Student M: Will you tell us about that?

Suzuki-rōshi: Ohh. Whenever he had something—some special thing, you
know, for guest, he would keep it in high place where we cannot reach, you
know. But, you know [laughs and laughter throughout paragraph], we know how
to take it, you know. So almost all the time, I—we took it down and cut a
little bit corner of it—slice by slice we cut. And—and then, looking at it,
when we feel—anyway he will find out, so we took [?] all of them. That is
what we would do, you know.

One day, you know, it was too high for us to reach [laughter throughout
paragraph]. So my—our eldest disciple asked me, who is the smallest one, to
reach it. And he said, "I will carry you on my shoulders. Then you can reach
for that." So I, you know—he carried me on his shoulder. And it was still—we
were not still high enough. So I told him, "A little bit more." So he stood
on his toe, you know, like this, and he lost balance. He throw me out on the
kettle—boiling kettle.

Student: Oh God.

Suzuki-rōshi: I got big, you know, burned here. Still I have some,
you know, mark here. But I couldn't say anything about it [laughter].

So when mealtime come, so I, you know, enduring my pain, I sit in my
seat. And we start—I started to eat, but this was pretty terrible injury.
Someone told me to use some oil on it. So by oil I hardly, you know,
recovered. I have still, you know, some mark here. Alm- [partial word]—we
did almost all the mischievous thing, almost. But when we do it with all of
us, he didn't scold us so badly.

But one day, we ate some big persimmon—four or five persimmons, which he
kept it until it is—until they are good enough to eat in rice—in rice. And
when someone ate it, you know—I don't know who did it—but when he found out
someone ate several persimmons already, he asked me who ate it. So i—actually
I didn't know, you know. "No, I don't know," I said. And he started to find
out who did it. Finally he found out two of them—two of us had eaten. At
that time he was very angry, you know, not because we ate it, but
because he—they didn't share the persimmons with all of us. He was very
angry. I think he was very—pretty kind to all of us, I think. Maybe with
skillful mean.