I'm just saying that amongst the world's richest countries we are pretty much alone in our religiosity, and that people find that comical. The rest of the world doesn't hate us. They love many things about America; however, they also laugh at our backwoods religious fervor, our obesity, and our penchant for firearms.

You can pick your country, with a few choice exceptions religion has been abandoned as something pre-modern. Here where I live 75 percent of the country is atheist, and those who aren't tend to be older. I have never once met a religious young person, and I meet lots and lots of young people. Now you can argue about whether or not this is a good thing, whether America is god's country or not, whether or not the rest of the world is going to hell, but what you can't argue with is the fact that we are increasingly the only religious rich country left, Israel and maybe Ireland notwithstanding.

You make good points and I do not care for the harcore religious right, but I still see hypocrisy in that view of America. Again, many people abroad bash us for our narrow-mindedness, inability to understand foreign cultures, and belief that anything that is not inherently American is not any good. I don't see how they can bash us for our arrogance and simultaneously bash us for our culture (which includes religion).

Something tells me that many of the people who bash America for its religiosity think the Dalai Lama (sp?) is great, believe we must respect Islam, and think that poor countries should preserve their cultural identities in the face of free trade and global integration. I find that interesting.

You make good points and I do not care for the harcore religious right, but I still see hypocrisy in that view of America. Again, many people abroad bash us for our narrow-mindedness, inability to understand foreign cultures, and belief that anything that is not inherently American is not any good. I don't see how they can bash us for our arrogance and simultaneously bash us for our culture (which includes religion).

Something tells me that many of the people who bash America for its religiosity think the Dalai Lama (sp?) is great, believe we must respect Islam, and think that poor countries should preserve their cultural identities in the face of free trade and global integration. I find that interesting.

SGG, I think you are incorrectly conflating American liberals with people overseas. What you are describing is your average University of Pennsylvania English major. The animus towards religion - all religion - runs deeper than you realize, and no religion is more reviled than Islam, particularly in Europe where religious inspired terrorism looms over daily life the same way it does in the States. Moreover, the kind of liberal political correctness you allude to is largely an American phenomenon.

Living overseas has taught me that America means a lot less to people than we as Americans think. At the end of the day we are just another country. The rest of the world is not obsessed with us. When we step on people's toes, as Tony Soprano would say, they might get upset. When we release an interesting movie they go see it. They like some things and dislike others, but at the end of the day they have to put food on the table, and America has nothing to do with that.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that America is going one way religiously while our first world contemporaries are going another.

Hmmm... and I thought this was going to be a debate over the nature of scientific theories, the role of experiment and simplicity in the defense of a materialist ontology, etc. You know, fun stuff!

But as a liberal who voted against Bush, I find this whole line of debate unproductive. Crazyhorse, this debate is just the one that Karl Rove wants you to be having. So long as it's atheist liberals against religious conservatives, we are playing the wrong game. Stalinist Russia was largely atheist, and even the most ardent liberal no longer supports that "enlightened" regime. And many great liberal thinkers have been religious--Locke, John Adams, Lincoln. It's a red herring.

The reason that many Americans do not believe in evolution is that it is tied up with a North-South post-Civil war split. Evolution was widely seen as a Northern cultural invasion, and it is wrapped up with that, and with the rise of pentecostal fundamentalism that has swept this country since the late 50's (Billy Graham) and beyond to today. The Scopes trial was not about science; it was about politics and culture.

Bringing in evolution is like bringing in gay marriage--it rallies social conservatives and clouds the issues: Liberals= anti-God. That is a debate better left to liberal arts classes in college. To the extent that it gets brought into today's current debate, Karl Rove is pleased. And that is very displeasing to me.

(PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth. That, and the other rights guaranteed by the constitution, if Bush stops taking a scissors to it!)

Hmmm... and I thought this was going to be a debate over the nature of scientific theories, the role of experiment and simplicity in the defense of a materialist ontology, etc. You know, fun stuff!

But as a liberal who voted against Bush, I find this whole line of debate unproductive. Crazyhorse, this debate is just the one that Karl Rove wants you to be having. So long as it's atheist liberals against religious conservatives, we are playing the wrong game. Stalinist Russia was largely atheist, and even the most ardent liberal no longer supports that "enlightened" regime. And many great liberal thinkers have been religious--Locke, John Adams, Lincoln. It's a red herring.

The reason that many Americans do not believe in evolution is that it is tied up with a North-South post-Civil war split. Evolution was widely seen as a Northern cultural invasion, and it is wrapped up with that, and with the rise of pentecostal fundamentalism that has swept this country since the late 50's (Billy Graham) and beyond to today. The Scopes trial was not about science; it was about politics and culture.

Bringing in evolution is like bringing in gay marriage--it rallies social conservatives and clouds the issues: Liberals= anti-God. That is a debate better left to liberal arts classes in college. To the extent that it gets brought into today's current debate, Karl Rove is pleased. And that is very displeasing to me.

(PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth. That, and the other rights guaranteed by the constitution, if Bush stops taking a scissors to it!)

Great post, and I especially agree with the last statement. I am sure many of us take that freedom for granted. I am highly critical of our leadership, but I am still grateful I have the right to be critical.

PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth.

I wholeheartedly agree. My little tangent was in response to Crazyhorse's statement that "this is not a good country" and to my friends' similar sentiments. I am a liberal who voted against Bush twice, but I am disturbed by a trend I see in liberal America where it has become popular to piss on our country (as opposed to disagreeing with Bush or right-leaning politicians).

I've lived and been to a lot of places around the world and this country is by far the greatest country I have ever been to. This is a country where anyone determined can realize his or her goals and dream. Not many places on this earth offer the kind of opportunities offered here. I think this may suprise a lot of people but believe it or not this is the most tollenet and least racist place on the planet.

Having said that, this country isn't without flaws. It is not perfect and to expect it to be is foolish. There are a lot of things I would like to change but change isn't easy. It takes time and I think we will get there.

Djnemo brings up a good point. Let's try to keep this debate civil. I strongly disagree with, but respect, crazyhorse.

I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.

I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.

I'll PM you

__________________You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

I've lived and been to a lot of places around the world and this country is by far the greatest country I have ever been to. This is a country where anyone determined can realize his or her goals and dream. Not many places on this earth offer the kind of opportunities offered here. I think this may suprise a lot of people but believe it or not this is the most tollenet and least racist place on the planet.

Having said that, this country isn't without flaws. It is not perfect and to expect it to be is foolish. There are a lot of things I would like to change but change isn't easy. It takes time and I think we will get there.

Thank you Saden. And thank you JWSleep.

If any of you guys get a chance you should read Fareed Zakaria's article in the latest Newsweek.

__________________You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.

Rose-colored glasses will not help our country regain its former position of moral, ethical, and intellectual leadership in our world. Before we can correct our course we must fully understand how far off course we have been. We have been murderous and have broken our traditions concerning torture, habeus corpus, international law; our attack on Iraq was unnecessary, unethical, and incredibly stupid. Our government has made lying, spying, and tyranny a policy and many of us have supported it all, many have supported much of it, and others have done nothing. We have attacked global warming, evolution, medical breakthoughs, even the undeniable physics of water and levees, as well as ignored truths unearthed by our intelligence agencies. We have been heartless and mindless and terrified of shadows.
If I had written a novel fifteen years ago featuring such a series of national failings, no one would have published it because no reader would have believed it. If you are not utterly shocked it's probably because you're asleep or dead. I started this thread with a discussion of terms of science and evolution because we are suffering from a basic national failure to come to grips with reality: laws and theories of science are basic. Evolution has a clear message: Evolve out of your primitive, mindless, greedy, fearful, heartless state or die.
There are plenty of George Bushes out there and we may even have a few more already in the pipeline. We don't have to follow them.

Rose-colored glasses will not help our country regain its former position of moral, ethical, and intellectual leadership in our world. Before we can correct our course we must fully understand how far off course we have been. We have been murderous and have broken our traditions concerning torture, habeus corpus, international law; our attack on Iraq was unnecessary, unethical, and incredibly stupid. Our government has made lying, spying, and tyranny a policy and many of us have supported it all, many have supported much of it, and others have done nothing. We have attacked global warming, evolution, medical breakthoughs, even the undeniable physics of water and levees, as well as ignored truths unearthed by our intelligence agencies. We have been heartless and mindless and terrified of shadows.
If I had written a novel fifteen years ago featuring such a series of national failings, no one would have published it because no reader would have believed it. If you are not utterly shocked it's probably because you're asleep or dead. I started this thread with a discussion of terms of science and evolution because we are suffering from a basic national failure to come to grips with reality: laws and theories of science are basic. Evolution has a clear message: Evolve out of your primitive, mindless, greedy, fearful, heartless state or die.
There are plenty of George Bushes out there and we may even have a few more already in the pipeline. We don't have to follow them.

Ok, you disagreed with the decision to attack Iraq. We get it. How many threads do you want to start telling us the same thing?

But it amazes me how you continue to think, or at least give the impression that you think, that all that you allege above has never happened before in this country. You think international laws were never violated, spying never occurred, habeas corpus was never suspended? It's happened before and it'll happen again.

Do you plan on discussing the Redskins again at some point on this message board, or do you want this just to be your bitchfest bully pulpit?

PS: FRPLG, I retract my PM to you

__________________You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

There are people on this site that I as an American am embarrassed of. People who I think are the problem with our country. But I don't write this about them publicly because I understand that to be in contrast to both the policy and spirit of this message board. I am quite surprised that this type of language seems to be okay with the mods here.