Ireland-msg - 9/8/14
Irish culture, dress. Points of interest. Irish history.
NOTE: See also the files: cl-Celts-msg, cl-Ireland-msg, fd-Ireland-msg, SI-songbook1-art, Scotland-msg, potatoes-msg.
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"OF IRELAND
Yrlonde hight Hibernia, and is an island of the Ocean in Europe, and is
nigh to the land of Britain, and is more narrow and straight than
Britain, but it is more plenteous place. . . . In this land is much
plenty of corn fields, of wells and of rivers, of fair meads and woods,
of metal and of precious stones. For there is gendered a six cornered
stone, that is to wit, Iris, that maketh a rainbow in the air, if it be
set in the sun. And there is jet found, and white pearls. And concerning
the wholesome air, Ireland is a good temperate country. There is little
or none passing heat or cold, there be wonderful lakes, ponds, and
wells. For there is a lake, in which if a staff or a pole of tree be
pight, and tarrieth long time therein, the part that is in the earth
turneth into iron, and the part that is in the water turneth into stone,
and the part that is above the water, abideth still in its kind of
tree. There is another lake in which if that thou throwest rods of
hazel, it turneth those rods into ash: and ayenward if ye cast ashen
rods therein, they turn into hazel. Therein be places in which dead
carrions never rot: but abide there always uncorrupt Also in Ireland is
a little island, in which men die not, but when they be overcome with
age, they be borne out of that island to die without. In Ireland is no
serpent, no frogs, nor venemous addercop; but all the land is so
contrary to venemous beasts that if the earth of that land be brought
into another land, and spronge on the ground, it slayeth serpents and
toads. Also venemous beasts flee Irish wool, skins, and fells. And if
serpents or toads be brought into Ireland by shipping, they die anon.
Solinus speaketh of Ireland, and saith the inhabitants thereof be
fierce, and lead an unhuman life. The people there use to
harbour no guests, they be warriors, and drink men's blood that they
slay, and wash first their faces therewith: right and unright they take
for one. . . . Men of Ireland be singularly clothed and unseemly arrayed
and scarcely fed, they be cruel of heart, fierce of cheer, angry of
speech, and sharp. Nathless they be free hearted, and fair of speech
and goodly to their own nation, and namely those men that dwell in
woods, marshes, and mountains. These men be pleased with flesh, apples,
and fruit for meat, and with milk for drink: and give them more to plays
and to hunting, than to work and travail.
Bartholomew Anglicus"
[A quote from period. Submitted by Brent Hanner
]
-----
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jaymin at maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: Re: Irish Persona Help Needed!
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 09:53:14 GMT
Keywords: surnames, garb
> What I'm having no luck with is costuming and "last names" (chiefly the
> practices for such names in 11th - 13th c. Eire)... Could someone
> recommend a book or two that talks about naming practices (especially
> *last* names; the Fidelma Maguire and Donnchadh O/ Corra/in book is no
> help in that regard)...
I have always found indispensible tools for creating Irish
personas are the various "Annals of Ireland". I have the Annals of
Innisfallen and the Annals of Connacht. Don't be mislead by the
names, they have very little to do with the area they are named after.
These are basically journals where the monks of the abbey would
write down a few paragraphs each year of what they though was important.
Innishfallen covers from about 430 to 1270 and Connacht covers 1200 to
1400 (or thereabouts).
These are *brilliant* source material. They are full of names
of all sorts of people with a massive name index in the back. Instant
irrefutable documentation. You can sit down a read through what happened
in your persona's life time from a contemporary point of view.
Needless to say they are woefully inaccurate about certain
things but then your persona would be equally ignorant. One entry catalogs
a 40' tall woman washing up on the shores of Scotland, another chronicles
the King of Alba gifting Brian Boru with a camel. Good stuff.
Arval writes:
>I suspect that the Irish in that period did not have "surnames" as such.
In the Annals people are usually "Blah, son of blah". Clan
affiliations you seem to be expected to know by context or by working out
the geneologies to the many "Blah, king of blah".
>For a woman, the standard patronymic form is
>"ni ".
Actually I've poured through the annals and never found anything
like this. There aren't too many women's names but every one I have
found so far has been "Blah daugheter of blah" in the Irish as
"blah ingen blah". What documents does "ni" or "nic" appear in?
Original poster:
> What I'm having no luck with is costuming and "last names"
Costuming is always a problem. There are very few books on this.
What period did you have in mind? There is a book on Anglo-Norman
sculpture... Other than that there are two theories:
1) Take English fashion of fifty to a hundred earlier that
your Irish persona.
2) Use English Fashion if you are from Leinster, Scotish
fashion if you are from Ulster, French fasion if you are from Munster,
and Spanish fashion if you are from Connacht.
In any event, don't forget there is a SCA Shire in Ireland.
We're always pleased to lend whatever hand we can to people with
Irish personas...
Yours in service,
Seamus Donn
% Seamus Donn Eva de Barri Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
%|% Jo Jaquinta Cathy Barry Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\ jaymin at maths.tcd.ie cbarry at maths.tcd.ie lgrant at maths.tcd.ie
===== 44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
/|\ for the Shire of Lough Devnaree (Lough Damh na Ri')
From: sm at teleport.com (Scott A. MacHaffie)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Irish Social History
Date: 24 Oct 1994 06:16:15 -0700
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
One book of Irish history, at a popular level, is "The Story of
the Irish Race," by Seumas MacManus, The Devin-Adair Co.,
Old Greenwich, Connecticut, 1986. ISBN: 0-517-064081. This book
has a good bibliography.
A very good book for early history (6th-11th century) is
"Social History of Ancient Ireland," by PW Joyce. This book is
a serious historical book with lots of references.
Scott MacHaffie
--
sm at teleport.com Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Portland, Oregon, where summer is the nicest half-hour all year
From: jcarlock at magnus.acs.ohio-state.EDU (James R Carlock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Irish Social History
Date: 25 Oct 1994 12:32:17 -0400
Organization: the internet
Greetings from Toirrdelbach!
Scott Mahaffie recommends P.W. Joyce's A SOCIAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT IRELAND
as a serious historical work? I will agree that Joyce was serious about his
history and used copious references, but I would suggest against using his work
as one's documentation for an article. His ideas about Irish dress are not
founded on actual articles, but rather on etymological evidence. He even
believes the celtic Irish wore kilts! The evidence he uses to support this is
a line drawing of a late-period shrine made on the continent, which features
some men in what at first glance appear to be topless skirts but really aren't.
Joyce shows all the limitations and biases of a 19th century historian.
Use his book as a reference to the primary sources, but don't accept anything
he says without checking the primary sources first.
With no disrespect to Mr. Mahaffie or Dr. Joyce,
Toirrdelbach
mka Jim Carlock
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cathal at netcom.com (James Pratt)
Subject: Re: Help out a Newbie?
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 03:19:16 GMT
: Good Milord:
: WELCOME TO THESE CURRENT MIDDLE AGES!
: Being of Danish/Irish extraction you are
: what we sons of Erin call a Fingall (light haired foreigner)
: as opposed to the Dubhgall (dark haired foreigner/Norwegian).
: But all that aside, the following works might be of some
: help:
: IRISH NAMES AND SURNAMES by Partic Woulfe
: Genealogical Pbl. Co., Baltimore, 1969
:
: A SOCIAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT IRELAND by P.W. Joyce
: Longman, Greene & Co., London, 1913
:
: IRELAND BEFORE THE VIKINGS by Gearoid Mac Nicoaill
: Gill and MacMillan, Ltd.,1972
: (Gill History of Ireland, vol. 1)
:
: OLD IRISH AND HIGHLAND DRESS by H.F. McClintock
: Dundalgan Press, Dundalk, 1943.
:
: Most larger University libraries should have these works
: or be able to access them by ILL. Practical SCA info can be
: obtained from THE KNOWN WORLD HANDBOOK. This is available from
: the Society Stock Clerk (see your Kingdom newsletter of the FAQ
: on this news group for the mailing address.)
: My best advice to any newcomer is: DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK
: QUESTIONS! No-one will bite your head off----maybe talk your
: ear off---if you ask an honest question. Have fun, learn and
: be welcome.
: Salve,
: Master Cathal Mac Edan na faeled,
: Barony of the South Downs, Meridies.
: OOOPS!
: I should proof my own postings more carefully. The
: correct usage is:
: Finghall/Fingal-light haired foreigners=Norwegians
: Dubhgall/Dughal-dark haired foreigners=Danes
: MEA CULPA!!
: CATHAL.
From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help on garb
Date: 26 Jun 1995 01:49:22 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS
Greetings!
By the thirteenth century, upper levels of Irish society would have
been very influenced by English court styles. The influence would likely
be more pronounced in areas which had been taken by the Normans a century
or so earlier. In any case, we're talking about tunics--looser sleeves
earlier in the century, tighter towards the end, for a guy anywhere between
knee and ankle length (depending on the specific period). If reflecting
upper class trends, you'd likely also add a surcote/gardecorps, especially
towards the end of period.
Which book do you have? There's no one single perfect source
for the period, but the Cunninghams' _English Medieval Costume_ is pretty
good.
Cheers!
Nicolaa/Susan
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Help on garb
Date: 23 Jun 1995 13:33:26 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
>
>I've just recently joined the SCA, and am currently researching a persona.
>The problem I've run into right now is appropriate garb. I'm looking at a
>late 13th century Irish Bard. I have a book on English Medieval costume, but
>I'm unsure as to whether English fashion would have applied to Ireland,
>especially Gaelic-Irish. If anyone has any suggestions, please e-mail me.
The answer is no it would not, and MOST especially to the Gaelic-Irish.
You might try for a more Norman dress when you are visiting the Big City,
but even the Norman lords tended to wear clothing more along the lines
of the attire of the locals (although by the late 13th C, that transition
might no yet be complete).
Try looking for a book called something like "Old Irish and Highland Dress"
by a man named McClintock. I'll see if I can dig something up that's
more specific.
I'll warn you though, Irish garb can be pretty ugly (so speaks the scholar
who dresses like the French he lives among :) ).
"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep
-- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Help on garb
Date: 26 Jun 1995 15:07:35 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
>>
>By the thirteenth century, upper levels of Irish society would
>have been very influenced by English court styles....
I'm afraid that I really must disagree, at least with the statement
that there would be influence from the English court. There is certainly
some influence from the continent, but it is really quite minimal,
or so it appears to me.
In fact, the Leine (at least according to tomb sculptures) remains
fairly standard well into the 1500s. There is a tomb of a Norman
Irish noble, in fact, dated c1230 that has him shown clearly in an
ankle length pleated Leine, although the sleeves are, in fact,
tightly cuffed around his wrists. By 1300, of course, the leine,
still evidences by all the material has shortened to just above the
half-boots, and is deeply "V" collared, with what might be an
undershirt. Neither outfit is worn belted, BTW. Over the next 150 year,
the outfit remains essentially the same, although there is one rendering
that shows one of those triangular belt pouches (c1450) worn over the
shoulder as a modern purse.
BTW, rather than the McClintock, these examples come from a
marvelous 2 colume set:
Hunt, John. Irish Medieval Figure Sculpture, 1200-1600, a study of
Irish tombs with notes on costume and armor. Dublin: Irish
University Press, 1972.
"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep
-- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help on garb
Date: 27 Jun 1995 19:20:53 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS
Greetings!
A caveat: I have not particularly studied Irish garb, and my original
statements did not apply to majority of Irish society--just the
highest levels. I was also talking strictly 13th century. It seems to
me that the idea of "national styles" really gets going in the 14th century.
Before that, as I posted earlier, people are essentially wearing "straight
cut" garments--variations on tunics/robes, with the main differences being
the tightness in both body and sleeves, the neckhole treatment, and the
length, as well as decoration and ornament (this is where you see your
greatest regional variation). For example, around 1250 England, France
and Germany (for women) favour a robe belted at the waist with tight
lower sleeves. The robe seems to have a lot of fabric in it, and the
fabric blouses over the belt. The sleeveless surcote is just coming
into fashion. The main exception to this is Spain--13th century Spain
is its own little world costume-wise--they seem to have liked side-laced
surcotes which fit tightly. Styles in England and France at this time
are so similar that it would be difficult to detect whether influence
was from the Continent or from England on Irish dress. (It could well be
either).
The main thing is that I doubt that in the 13th century the
cut of Irish clothing was vastly different than that of English clothing.
Now, the way the Irish combined pieces, and the jewellery/belts/decoration
might have been quite a bit different. But from the description given
of the _laine_, it sounds like a variation on the tunic theme.
National styles, BTW, interest me a great deal. By late in
our period, they had become identifiable--i.e., I can usually tell French,
English, Spanish, Dutch, German, and Italian 16th century garb apart;
but in my period (13th century), except for Spain and a few regional
differences in decoration, there do not yet seem to be any developed
national styles. Comments anyone? I'd love to hear from anyone who's
studyied the development of national styles.
Cheers!
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
From: lyon at infi.net at infi.net
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Irish Garb
Date: 5 Nov 1995 20:24:50 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
You should try to get a copy of "Dress in Ireland" by Mairead Dunlevy.
It gives good descriptions but the pictures start at about 1500. Good
luck! If you find pictures or other info for earlier, please post here.
I'd be very interested!
Andrea
andreah at cpsnet.com
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Irish name query (was Period Scottish names)
Date: 11 Nov 1995 23:09:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lila Richards (lila at lynx.CO.NZ) wrote:
: OK. Now I'm *completely* confused! For lo these many years, I have been
: known as Caitlin ni Cumhaill. I originally used 'mac Cumhaill', because I
: wished to imply descent from Fionn (Finn?) mac Cumhaill, but at some stage I
: decided this was incorrect. So ... am I right in assuming from the above
: explanation that 'ni Cumhaill' refers to me as a descendant of Cumhaill?
Yes, that's exactly right. "ni/ Cumhaill" means "female descendent of
Cumhall". As best I understand what you are trying to imply with the
name, you are doing it correctly.
: And if so, how would I say I'm a descendant of 'mac Cumhaill'?
There's no reason to do it any differently. If you wanted to say
specifically that you are the daughter of a man surnamed "mac Cumhaill",
you could instead use "inghean mhic Cumhaill", but if you just want
"nebulously distant descendent" then either "inghean ui" or the short
form "ni" says what you want to say.
: Caitlin is
: 7th C Irish, but failing that, anything early will do.
Well, I hate to disabuse you of the notion, but it would be completely
impossible for "Caitlin" to be a 7th century Irish name. The cult of St.
Katherine originated in Syria and was not brought to Western Europe until
the crusades. The name Katherine, in any of its variants, would not have
been known in 7th century Ireland.
: Also, I'd like to add 'of (or from) the Windswept Moor' (it's been blowing a
: near-gale outside all day today!) or something close, but I haven't a clue
: where to start.
Ohpleasegodno. Do you want a name that could reasonably have been used by
a period Irishwoman or do you want a name that couldn't possibly exist
outside of a bad fantasy novel? My research has found locative nicknames
to be extremely rare in Irish. The ones that I _have_ found are generally
derived from the proper names of places, rather than fanciful descriptions.
: One kind gentle suggested 'Sliabh' for 'moor', but he said
: it also means 'mountain', so I'm not sure.
Yup, "sliabh" can mean either "moor" or "mountain". Probably it would be
better translated as "high elevation". The mountains in Ireland aren't
particularly mountainous by most standards. There are a number of place
names that incorporate the word "sliabh" -- Hogan's "Onomasticon
Goedelicum" has eight pages of listings of "Sliabh ", unfortunately my Irish isn't fluent enough to skim through and
get a sense of what sort of modifiers are used except that the majority
seem to be personal names (i.e., "so-and-so's sliabh").
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
From: Christopher Allen Owens
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA suggestions for trip to UK?
Date: 25 May 1996 06:20:35 GMT
Organization: NetSet Internet Services -- Columbus, Ohio
talis87346 at aol.com (Talis87346) wrote:
>
> My lord and I are traveling to England, Scotland, and Dublin in the fall,
> and we were wondering if anyone who has visited there has suggestions
> about places of especial interest to Scadians.
If you are planning on spending any time in Ireland and don't mind "roughing-it"
try to go to Killkenny, you can stay at the local youth hostel which is a converted 15th Century fortified manor. Complete with grown-over walls and a guard-house/bicycle shed.
From: JWSCHM00 at ukcc.uky.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Suggestions for trip to the UK
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 12:55:22 EDT
Organization: The University of Kentucky
Greetings,
I have lost the original post, but I believe the gentles in question
were visiting Dublin.
If so, a decent place to visit is Dublinia "a bridge to the medieval past".
This is located on St. Michael's Hill, next to Christ Church Cathedral.
There's a mosaic behind the ex-church (St. Michael's) where a Vikin
house was excavated. There are inlays in the sidewalk around Christ
Church that look like they represent archeological finds, but we weren't
able to find out exactly what they were.
If visiting York, I also recommend Jorvik. Also, if you go down in the
foundations of the York Minster, you can see neat things like the
original Norman foundations and a Roman road they excavated when re-doing
the foundations.
Jean Schmeisser -- Kriemhilde von Habichtslager
Dragonsmark -- Midrealm
From: cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ireland
Date: 26 May 1996 12:29:41 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
There are many good books on the period that can be found just browsing at
the library --- History of the Irish Race , A History of Ireland , Ireland
in Tudor Times , and anything by Geraldus Cabriensis. Also look into
books on Irish folk tales and Mythology to get an idea of the mindset.
(Histories by English authors sometimes are a bit one sided , ....I wonder
why?( Hee Hee Hee!!!). You will need to do a bit of reading in order to
get more specific in your request for info , your at square one and asking
"what is the universe". Sir fitz
From: lynch_c at csvax1.ucc.ie (Conor James Lynch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ireland
Date: 31 May 1996 12:16:20 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College, Cork, Ireland.
In article <4oa0tl$aug at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu) writes:
>There are many good books on the period that can be found just browsing at
>the library --- History of the Irish Race , A History of Ireland , Ireland
>in Tudor Times , and anything by Geraldus Cabriensis.
Sir fitz
The best books I have seen which details irish culture etc is Eugene O'Curry's
Manners and customs of the ancient irish a 3 volume set but an invaluable
source of information.
Cathal MacBrian
From: ladyallyn at aol.com (Lady Allyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Celtic Oaths
Date: 12 Jun 1996 04:59:40 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Honorable soul,
Try "The Social History of Ancient Ireland" by Joyce -- two volumes, VERY
well documented, long exerpts of Brehon law (ie; oaths) and HUGE
bibliography.
Peace and Strength,
Allyn
From: "James W. Reilly"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hi! I'm new to the SCA!
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:19:14 +0100
Hi there Siusaidh and welcome to the SCA,
In society I am known as Enda Mac an Bháird(mundanely as Jim Reilly) and
I am an Irishman of the 13th C. In regards to your questions I would
like to point out that in all actuality the Scots were merely a
decendency of the Irish colony in Ariada(Scotland) well before what the
SCA calls period. Also communications between Ireland and Dalriada were
kept up through-out the early middle ages and that the Ulster-Irish and
the Scots have always been a close-knit lot even well before Cromwell.
A very good source for early Irish, and therefore Scot history, I would
recommend "History of the Irish Race" by Seumas MacManus. Except for his
sheer hatred of the English in the later chapters, it is an excellent
resource for early Gaelic/Celtic culture which is also, and most
importantly, very well documented. It was originally written in 1921,
and the man made absolutely sure that anyone could check his resources
(It is well worth the investment purely for the lists of source material
at the end of each chapter).
In regards to a name source, the easiest to recommend would be "Book of
Irish Names" by Ronan Coghlan, Ida Grehan, and P.W. Joyce. This is very
good for persona names being as they have tried to date the earliest
appearances of name along with what they mean. Best of all, this book is
easily available from the SCA Marketplace, P.O.Box 360789, Milpitas,
California, 95036-0789, tel.(408) 956-5444,(800) 789-7486, fax.(408)
263-0641. It sells for $10.00 + the usual whatever shipping.
If you have any further questions, need further help, or just want to
discuss Gaelic/celtic culture, the SCA, or whatever else; feel free to
contact me via the Rialto or email me.
Your in service,
Enda
From: peterbi at microsoft.com (Peter N. Biddle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Tower Of London and Bunratty Castle (Ireland)
Date: 12 Dec 1996 19:33:59 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
I visited the Tower of London (again) and Bunratty Castle (Ireland) a
couple of weeks ago and I have some notes to share:
Tower - Almost all of the armor is GONE. URK! It has been moved to the
royal armories, one at Leeds(just outside England) and one at Portsmouth.
What remains is Henry VIII's collection of tourney armor, plus some of the
more quaint pieces form his personal armory (combined weapons like
musket/shields, musket/maces, etc.), and some random pieces of other
late-period tourney stuff. So you can see his famous cod-piece and the
skirt armor, but not much more. (I actually got to hear the
winched-onto-the-horse story again, fortunately not by a guide but by an
observer.) I didn't get to Leeds (no time), which was a major drag.
The White tower is essentially closed - this is in the long run goodness
as they are renovating it so that it can be displayed as it was used
originally, as opposed to being an armor warehouse.
Once again the "palace" with the 13th cent. re-enactors was the best, and
as it was off-season, we basically had the place to ourselves. I had a
long talk with one of the lords present, playing a 13th cent. knight (the
king was there as well), and got a good look at his shoes and clothes, all
of which were hand-made. He said the shoes he had (above the ankle
turn-shoes, using button-type fasteners set to the outside, with no
exposed seams) were based on a 13th century London dig-find, and that they
were the most comfortable shoes he wore. He also showed me a period
woodblock of knights playing a board game sans belts - he was of the
opinion that when you got home you took off the belt and the assorted
accouterment to relax, letting your tunics fall more like a dress. He wore
a non-hooded circle cloak (8 yards of cloth), a separate hood, a shorter
outer-tunic with short sleeves, a long inner tunic, knee-high hose/socks
connected to a belt, and "diaper-like" under wear (didn't see that...).
Not as much jewelry as the king - a couple of rings. The belt he wore (and
the king) was quite narrow - not like most of the belts you see around an
SCA event.
Bunratty was very cool - it is in Ireland between Shannon airport and
Limerick and it has been renovated to be entirely 16th cent. (except for a
few pieces of furniture etc.) and older. There are lots of REAL medieval
antiques and artifacts around the place, and it definitely give you a
serious medieval feel. The great hall was quite large and had a fire
circle set in the floor of the middle of the room, with a vent in the
ceiling - no chimney. They had a bunch of 17th cent courboulli butts (big
jugs) in a room but you couldn't get close to them, which caused me no end
of grief. The downside to this place was that in the castle there is NO
one around to answer questions. They even had several period swords, some
armor, and a cross-bow I would have also killed to get my hands on, but
alas they too were off limits. (No surprise really, butt to be so close,
with no one around...) The enormous tables, however, were free to be
examined which was very cool - enormous things (maybe 14 feet long by 3
feet wide), some made out of single solid boards 3-4 inches thick, all
held together with pegs. The castle also has a folk-park, a turn of the
century Irish village, which was also way cool. The scary part is how
medieval the place feels - it is only 100 years old and some of the
farmsteads could easily be mistaken for 1000 AD. Very little metal,
thatched roofs, sleep in the same room as your animals, etc. The smell of
burning turf was everywhere (every house had a burning peat fire - a very
nice touch). You can get in and get your hands on a lot of cool stuff at
Bunratty; it is a very cool castle and town with a very rich history as a
working military and social structure (hard to believe it has been sacked
8 times - you wouldn't believe it if you saw it's defenses). I just WISH
they had some interpreters around. I am going to see if I can't find a
curator and hit him or her up for info.
Some notes from their un-bibliographies literature: Women weren't allowed
in the great hall. The Norman's were great big bastards much of the time.
The Irish rarely got their shit together enough to quit squabbling with
each-other and throw the bastards out, although they did succeed on
occasion. The officers and soldiers (both commoners) shared quarters (a
single huge living room) but were separated by a line cut across the
floor. No one was allowed to sit in the presence of Earl Thromond except
during meal times.
In the same general vicinity of Bunratty are about a half-dozen or more
medieval re-enactment castles and villages, but only Bunratty is open in
the off season.
Colm
From: mmaxwell at whsun1.whoi.edu (Michael Maxwell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 13th Century Irish Help, Please
Date: 20 Feb 1997 17:24:28 GMT
Organization: Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Cooley (freyac at mindspring.com) wrote:
: I am trying to establish my personae, but I am having difficulties.
: Thus I turn to you in the hope that you will lend me your aid and
: wisdom. I need source material on the daily lives of the Irish in
: this period. What they ate, how they dressed, etc. I am particulary
: interested in the arms, armour, clothes, and jewelry of the Irish;
: especially the Gallowglass mercenaries.
For a contemporary view of late 12th century Ireland, read Gerald of Wales
"History and Topography of Ireland", available from Penguin Books. I'll
take a stab at the Latin (I don't have my book with me): Giraldus Cambrensis
- Topographia Hiberniae. Gerald addresses alot of the stuff you're
interested in.
Osprey Books puts out a "Men-at-Arms" series. They have a book called "The
Irish Wars." It gives good detail on weapons, armor, clothes, but focuses
on the 1500's.
There is also the "Oxford History of Ireland" edited by Foster, I believe.
It might also have some blurbs about daily life and material culture.
Regards,
Mike Maxwell
mmaxwell at whsun1.wh.whoi.edu
From: Mary Hysong
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 13th Century Irish Help, Please
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:25:25 -0800
Organization: Innovative System Design, Ltd
Cooley (freyac at mindspring.com) wrote:
: I am trying to establish my personae, but I am having difficulties.
: Thus I turn to you in the hope that you will lend me your aid and
: wisdom. I need source material on the daily lives of the Irish in
: this period. What they ate, how they dressed, etc. I am particulary
: interested in the arms, armour, clothes, and jewelry of the Irish;
: especially the Gallowglass mercenaries.
The book Illustrated Archeology of Ireland may also be helpful, as well
as Mairhead Dunlevy's book Dress in Ireland. I have more stuff on the
shelf and some sites on the net if you will send me your e-mail address
I will help if I can. Slan agat (good bye)
Mairi Broder, Atenveldt
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:46:26 -0500
From: maddie teller-kook
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: [Fwd: Celtic (Irish/Scot/Welsh/Manx) First Names]
Here is a web page of interest......It has a gaelic word every day
and goes thru the changes of the irish language from 400 C.E. to
present.
http://www.lincolnu.edu/~focal/archive.htm
meadhbh
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:40:56 -0600
From: Nancy Lynch
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Greetings And HELP!
> I am needing Information on Irish formal dress (Female) between 1000
> and 1200 A.D. I am wanting to make a complete outfit for one of the
> ladies in my Household and as an ART-SCI entry. Unfortunatly I am unable
> to find ANY information on this period. If you have any information at
> all, It will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Gregor "The Mug" Jotun
Gregor, a chara! (Greetings!)
Dressing your ladies appropriately is a lovely gesture on your part.
Are you also of Irish persona? For an A&S entry you will be busy in the
library for a bit. The good news is that there aren't thousands of
books to read, the bad news is that there isn't nearly enough
information available.
This time period is varied in it's influences so be prepared to do a bit
of digging, both for Irish dress styles and refining the specifics of
your household's ladies.
By the tenth century Ireland was rife with Vikings. They were busily
building towns, seaports, government centers, and trade routes. Dublin,
a Norse/Scandinavian stronghold, was established in the 9th century.
Then the Normans "visited" in 1169, and forgot to go home...:) So,
though you end your requested time period in the 12th century, the
nobility were being influenced in fashion and style by those "sons O'
William the...Conqueror".
After deciding what influences your household members have, then you can
begin your search. If "strictly Irish" is what you hear, the following
is a bibliography to get you started. If you cannot find these in your
local library, inter-library loan is your friend!
"Dress in Ireland" Mairead Dunlevy, Holms and Meier Publishers, 1989
"Handbook on the Traditional Old Irish Dress", H F McClintock, Dundalgen
Press, 1950
"Costume and Fashion - the evolution of European dress through the
earlier ages", Herbert Norris, J M Dent and Sons, 1924
Depending on how excited you are about "whole outfits" you might be
interested in shoes.....look up:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOES
If you get to where you have more specific questions let me know.
Sonas ort! (Happiness on you!)
T.H.Lady Lughbec ni Eoin
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 13:00:14 -0500
To:
From: "C Ward, Software Support, x3115"
Subject: re: ANST - North African/Irish Combo Platter
From: "-Jax-" , on 10/1/97 7:07 AM:
I have a friend, new to the SCA, who is developing her persona. The
concept is a combined North African and Irish heritage, around the 10th
century. Any ideas? What contact was there between these two cultures in
this period? What sort of people from North Africa would have reason to
go to Ireland at this time, or v v?
-Erik Wulfriksson-
House of Brick
You are in luck!
The Moorish kingdoms were sending ambassadors to Ireland at this period,
specifically to the Irish Viking Colonies. One Arab chronicler, Al-Ghazal,
wrote a commentary of his embassy and his dealings with the queen of the
Vikings, who was a spae-wife and used to sit on the high altar at the
church at Clonmacnoise and prophecy.
There is a translation of Al-Ghazal, with commontary and background
materials, available as "The Poet and the Spae-Wife". I am at work right
now, and do not have the reference in front of me, but if your friend is
interested in further details, they can write to me at gunnora at bga.com and
I will direct them further.
::GUNNORA::
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:25:51 -0700
From: Nancy Lynch
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Irish Anything and Everything...
A really good book that I have been reading about Irish basic Medieval
history is called -
"Medieval Ireland, The Enduring Tradition"; by Michael Richter
It is an easy read, interresting, accurate (as far as I have gotten and
know of:) and has a nifty bibliography, maps, Irish society schematic,
Irish words list, and a good index.
Sonas ort! (Happiness on you!)
Mistress Lughbec
From: DDFr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medival migration
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:02:18 -0700
Organization: Santa Clara University
observer at rogers.wave.ca wrote:
> Does anybody know how common it was for irish nobles to migrate to
>normandy in the periods of 1000 to 1300? This seems to be the case for my
>mother's side of the family, the THIBAULTs. Why would they do it? What
>happened? Could you refer me to a thorough web site? What i've found so far is
>awfully vague and slanted.
English nobles of Norman descent, led by Richard Strongbow, Earl of
Pembroke, conquered a considerable part of Ireland in the 12th century, so
by the end of the 12th century "Irish" nobles, in the sense of nobles
holding land in Ireland, might easily be Normans. They might also be the
descendants of Irish/Norman marriages. Strongbow himself married the
daughter of Dermot, King of Leinster; their daughter, Isabel of Pembroke,
married William Marshall. Isabel brought William large holdings in both
Ireland and Normandy.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:01:46 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Ireland-OT-OOP
In a message dated 6/13/98 6:07:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ddfr at best.com
writes:
<< And which country and time period was this? According to my research,
>in early Ireland, there were not baker's guilds, which would be a
>function of a large city. Until the Vikings came, there were not
>cities, just clan holdings. I don't think that this was as universal
>as it seems at first. >>
Technically, the culture of Ireland was not feudal in the way that the
mainland or even England was feudal. Comparisons with it's culture and
mainland European culture is for the most part an exercise in futility. There
is a very good program about Ireland on the History Channel now called "A
Short History of Ireland" which gives a very good basic understanding about
Ireland and it's people. It was an eye opener for me.
Ras
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:14:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "J. Patrick Hughes"
To: sca-arts at listproc.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Irish coins
There is a lengthy treatment of early Irish currency in Fergus Kelly's _A
Guide to Early Irish Law_. He states "The currency system revealed by the
law texts and other documents is extremely complex. The value of an
article or the amount of fine may be given in terms of cumals, sets,
cattle or ounces of silver. Sometimes a combination of two or three
currencies is used. For instance, Bretha Dein Checht rules that a person
who inflicts a grain sized wound in the hollow of a king's temple must pay
an ounce of silver, a milch cow and 5 sets."
Cumal literally meant female slave but was used as a measure of value
centuries after the practice of slavery was no longer around. A set seems
much harder to define.
Most of the currency described is not it terms of coins, though it would
have been easy enough to have adopted silver coinage if it was introduced
by invaders.
Charles O'Connor
jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 07:35:17 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates"
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG
Dates in Irish Myth and Legend
http://indigo.ie/~legends/dates.html
The Ulster Cycle: Heroic Myths and Legends from Ireland
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/6084/
Subject: BG - book recomendation ... celtic myth and legend
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 09:20:33 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates"
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG
The Tain: From The Irish Epic Tain Bo Cualnge
Translated by Thomas Kinsella
Oxford University Press
ISBN 0-19-281090-1
a previous thread on real and perceived sumptuary law got me interested in
the irish sumptuary laws as laid out in the brehon law codes ... requested
information from the Clannada mailing list and was referred to their site (
http://www.clannada.org/ref1.html ) for an article on clothing that included
some information and a specific pointer (from teh list) to this work, ordered
online from Amazon.Com, arrived three days later (... gotta love em!).
just finished a cursory scan and suggest that any with celtic segments in
their libraries add it ... good translation, excellent notes, all in all a
good reference to this important work
'wolf
Subject: ANST - keltoi client system .. was: designated parasites
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:16:18 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates"
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
On 8 Feb 99, at 16:32, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> It is interesting to see how contemporary outsiders viewed the Celtic
> social structure. It helps make sense of some of the more arcane academic
> writings.
If such things are to your taste, may I recommend a new read I'm starting to
wade through (deep going so far)
_Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland_, Nerys
Paterson, University Notre Dame Press, ISBN: 0-268-00800
Anyone need a illdana with potential, but of dubious moral character (musical
tastes, fashion sense, ...) as a client ??? ... "will philosophize for food
& fuel"
'wolf
Subject: Viking Age Decorated Wood
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 21:13:36 MST
From: rmhowe
To: John_Cope at mail.enr.state.nc.us, stefan at texas.net
I got this new book in today:
, A Study of It's Ornament and Style
by James T. Lang, National Museum of Ireland. Medieval Dublin
Excavations1962-81 Royal Irish Academy. Full of things like fancy
sword beaters, shuttles, winders, scoops, spindle, boxes,carding
comb handle, a really neat wolf toggle, knife handles, an awl with a
dragon head, stylus, etc. Some furniture bits, boxes, carvings.
The awl has the blade bent nearly 90 degrees. I'm not gonna
speculate on that one.
Ordered from bookshop.co.uk 0901714690 17.66 pounds. on Internet.
Got it since ordered on the 5th.
http://www.bookshop.co.uk/hme/hmepge.asp
The decorated sword beaters and some of the other items are rather
neat. 102 pages, a bit bigger than the average big dover.
Royal Irish Academy, 19 Dawson St., Dublin 2
HB 0 901714 68 2
PB 0 901714 69 0
Magnus
I don't sell 'em. Have to order your own.
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:42:10 -0500
From: Steve Hughes
Subject: SC - Re: Celtic Dung fires
Ras wrote:
>Surprisingly dung of any type once thoroughly dried throws off very little if
>any objectionable odor when used as fuel. Dungs have been and are currently
>used as fuels by many cultures.
I think the key work here is DRIED dung. In regard to dung fuels
traditional used in Ireland, John M. Synge writes about cow dung fires
in his book _The Aran Islands_ . He comments on having to escape
outdoors to the local Celtic Dun (fort) to read because of the stench.
Dung has been historically used on the Irish Islands as long as cows
were present. Miranda Green's _Celtic Animals_ notes that a cow produces
24 kilos of dung a day, should you want to know what a good fuel source
they are.
Synge also comments on the presence of tiny rooms next to the Aran fire
places to accommodate the chickens. A continuation of housing the
animals inside with people. Miranda Green also mentions the presence
of chicken bones in Celtic garbage heaps and that the chicken came from
India. My thought was it was a hell of a long way for a chicken to walk
to be gassed and kept warm by a cow dung fire. So should you be planning
a Celtic Feast, chicken can be served!
Pamela Hewitt, the Harper
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:50:04 -0700
From: Curtis & Mary
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Craggaunowen
> The Craggaunowen Project is pretty cool. It includes reconstructed Iron
> Age dwellings (including a crannoq and a ring-fort), a small museum of
> medieval "antiquities" housed in a 16th century tower-house, and the
> "Brendan Exhibition" including the curragh that Tim Severin sailed to North
> America. It is in County Clare, south of the village of Quin; as I recall,
> not far from Bunratty. They do living history during the High Season
> (which is now).
>
> You do have "The Intelligent Traveler's Guide to Historic Ireland," don't
> you? (Philip A. Crowl, 1990; ISBN 0-8092-4062-9)
> It is invaluable.
Thanks for the info. Actually this trip is mostly being planned by a
friend of mine who has been there several times {if it weren't for her,
I wouldn't be going for probably another 5 years !} Mostly we are going
to the National Museum in Dublin to study the Shinrone and Moy gowns
first hand {my friend is Kass McGann, that wrote the article in the
spring TI about the Shinrone gown} We will also be going up to the
Ulster museum in Belfast to study the Dungiven costume there. In
addition we will be at the Shinrone festival where we will wear our
reproductions of the Shinrone gown and Kass will give a talk about it.
There's also an SCA event as part of the festival.
Mairi
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:09:22 MST
From: "Caley Woulfe"
Subject: ANST - Fw: [TY] cool site!!
To: "Ansteorran List"
I got this off the Meridies tavern Yard...
Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-Wolf of Limerick
"If Normal is relative, it must be a very distant relative..."
-----Original Message-----
From: Patricia Hefner
To: TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu
Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 5:19 PM
Subject: [TY] cool site!!
>There's a GREAT site that's a history of Ireland in maps. It has a map for
>each century, starting with B.C, then continuing with 100 A.D, and going up
>to the twentieth century. The site also has a list of big time ruling
>families of the century and some other prominent families, so it's
>interesting if you're a genealogy greak and happen to have Irish blood like
>yours truly. There are also time lines for each century. Geez, pretty soon
>they'll have to put twenty-first...that will be weird. Anyway, here's the
>URL for interested parties:
>
>http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/kilkenny/2/ire700.htm
>
>This will take you to the site for 700. There are buttons on the site that
>will take you to the century of your choice. Enjoy!
>
>Isabelle
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:54:41 MST
From: "Caley Woulfe"
Subject: ANST - Irish Stuff
To: "Tavern Yard"
CC: "Ansteorran List"
For all you Irish types. This is a fairly good site; it's virtual tour of
historical/mythological sites in Ireland; with some mythology tossed in for
good measure.
http://www.paddynet.com/island/
Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-Wolf of Limerick
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:43:14 MST
From: Sean Gulick
Subject: Re: ANST - Ireland
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
ches at io.com wrote:
> What was the land mass of Ireland called in the year 1666?
>
> F. Havas
Although I am not an authority on the subject, I am fairly certain it was
called Ireland as today. During the War of the Roses which was quite a bit
earlier it was was called Ireland and there was even a parlimentary office
referring to Ireland by name (although I must admit I do not remember the exact
office title). I do not know exactly when it was first called such but
certaintly it was prior to 1666. Hope that helps.
Gideon
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:12:58 MST
From: Fopdejour1 at aol.com
Subject: Re: ANST - Ireland
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
In a message dated 01/06/2000 7:12:10 PM, ches at io.com writes:
<< What was the land mass of Ireland called in the year 1666?
F. Havas >>
I am pretty sure it was called Ireland. In the official title of
Elizabeth, She was titled: HRM Elizabeth by the Grace of God, Queen of
England, France and Ireland, Supreme governor of the Church of England in all
things ecclesiastical as well as temporal....or pretty close to that. Since
it existed in 1508 as Ireland, I am pretty sure in 1666 under Charles II it
was the same.
The English part of Ireland, or the part actually controlled and settled
by the English, was a very small area on the eastern coast was known as The
Pale.
Chas de B
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 10:12:31 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D."
Subject: RE: ANST - Ireland
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'"
IIRC, the Irish referred to the island as Eire. In more modern times, Eire
has been used to also describe the nation-state formed by the Irish. During
period, political groupings would have been described by Kingdoms, clans or
leaders in the Celtic manner. The English referred to the island as
Ireland.
Bear
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 10:17:51 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D."
Subject: RE: ANST - Ireland
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'"
> Last crossword puzzle I did called it "Erin." Don't know
> WHEN it was called that, though.
>
> /Ly Elizabeth H.
Erin is a poetically form of Eire. Bear
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:31:45 MST
From: Brent Hanner
Subject: BG - A Medieval Tid-bit : Of Ireland
To: "bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org"
OF IRELAND
Yrlonde hight Hibernia, and is an island of the Ocean in Europe, and is
nigh to the land of Britain, and is more narrow and straight than
Britain, but it is more plenteous place. . . . In this land is much
plenty of corn fields, of wells and of rivers, of fair meads and woods,
of metal and of precious stones. For there is gendered a six cornered
stone, that is to wit, Iris, that maketh a rainbow in the air, if it be
set in the sun. And there is jet found, and white pearls. And concerning
the wholesome air, Ireland is a good temperate country. There is little
or none passing heat or cold, there be wonderful lakes, ponds, and
wells. For there is a lake, in which if a staff or a pole of tree be
pight, and tarrieth long time therein, the part that is in the earth
turneth into iron, and the part that is in the water turneth into stone,
and the part that is above the water, abideth still in its kind of
tree. There is another lake in which if that thou throwest rods of
hazel, it turneth those rods into ash: and ayenward if ye cast ashen
rods therein, they turn into hazel. Therein be places in which dead
carrions never rot: but abide there always uncorrupt Also in Ireland is
a little island, in which men die not, but when they be overcome with
age, they be borne out of that island to die without. In Ireland is no
serpent, no frogs, nor venemous addercop; but all the land is so
contrary to venemous beasts that if the earth of that land be brought
into another land, and spronge on the ground, it slayeth serpents and
toads. Also venemous beasts flee Irish wool, skins, and fells. And if
serpents or toads be brought into Ireland by shipping, they die anon.
Solinus speaketh of Ireland, and saith the inhabitants thereof be
fierce, and lead an unhuman life. The people there use to
harbour no guests, they be warriors, and drink men's blood that they
slay, and wash first their faces therewith: right and unright they take
for one. . . . Men of Ireland be singularly clothed and unseemly arrayed
and scarcely fed, they be cruel of heart, fierce of cheer, angry of
speech, and sharp. Nathless they be free hearted, and fair of speech
and goodly to their own nation, and namely those men that dwell in
woods, marshes, and mountains. These men be pleased with flesh, apples,
and fruit for meat, and with milk for drink: and give them more to plays
and to hunting, than to work and travail.
Bartholomew Anglicus
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:34:42 -0700
From: Mary Hysong
To: Aten Arts ,
"sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu"
Subject: All things Irish
For all those interested there is a new list for Irish History, where we
are currently discussing costuming ;-)
go to the link to subscribe
Mairi, Atenveldt
http://www.onelist.com/community/IrishHistory
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:10:12 -0400
From: Warren & Meredith Harmon
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: PERIOD cloak clasps
This may not help you, but the book "Metal Craftsmanship in Early
Ireland" by Michael Ryan, ISBN 0-946172-37-4, is wonderfully excellent
for Celtic brooches of the 8th-10th century. Great shots, both b&w and
color. I highly recommend it for anyone in that period, and it may be a
good place to start for info.
-Caro
From: "Cathy Harding"
To:
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:06:39 -0700
Definitely go to the Irish national museum and the portrait gallery. They
are both in Dublin. William spent several days in both, pressing his nose
to the glass in the treasury room. He's a goldsmith and there were lots of
lovely things....
Maeve.
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:14:45 +0200
From: Volker Bach
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland
Robin Carroll-Mann schrieb:
> After several years delay (buying a house put us off-schedule), my
> lord and I are finally going to Ireland. We will be there from Sept.
> 10 - 21. We are flying into Shannon and departing from Dublin.
> We have booked a "self-drive tour" with a rental car and vouchers
> for B&Bs. Our vague plan is to drive a semi-circular route along the
> southern coast from Shannon to Dublin. At this point, our only
> must-sees along the way are the Ring of Kerry, the Craggaunowen
> Project, Blarney Castle, the Waterford factory, and Kilkenny City.
I would definitely include Glendalough, an early
Irish monastery with surviving 9th century
buildings and a nice (though unfortunately not
overwhelmingly informative) visitor center.
Definitely allow a day or three for Dublin, too -
the National Museum is stunning (and free, or used
to be when I did a year at Trinity back in
'96/97), the Viking Centre is somewhere between
cute and wow (though pricey), and you should take
the time for the Trinity Library and a few
churches (none that old in the city, but quite a
few with foundations going that far back). Also,
by all means do some exploring along the south
bank of the Liffey. Everybody keeps talking about
'Georgian Dublin', but I found that particluar
part incredibly boring. 'Victorian Dublin' on the
other hand is architecturally quite intriguing,
and chock-full of bookshops, music stores and pubs
(pricey and not at all 'authentic', but fun to be
in).
New Grange is a matter of taste - impressive, but
sort of stone age (which it is, to be fair).
> Any recommendations for places to visit/stay/shop/eat? Since my
> persona is 10th century Irish, things related to that era would be of
> particular interest. Oh, and I don't do beer or ale. At all. Is cider
> readily available in pubs?
I can only speak for the Dublin area, but I always
found something to drink in the usually wide
choice offered, and I don't drink any kind of
alcohol.
Giano
From: "Cathy Harding"
To:
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:53:58 -0700
[the Dublin area]
There is a wonderful restaurant in the Temple Bar (above the fly fishing
place. It is called the Old Mill. We had a duck salad that was excellent
and a bunch of other yummy stuff (It's early, I haven't had my Dr. Pepper
yet.)
Maeve
From: "ruadh"
To:
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:54:03 -0400
upon a time I had a link to Ireland's cell phones, that I could "prepay" one
to use while there. Best to have as you B&B about, call ahead by 1 PM to
have that night's stay fixed and reserved. Lunch is FINISHED by 2 PM, carry
a poly cooler if you need snacks/drinks. get a 4 door hatch back to carry
all your goodies; even if just two people. AAA [ state side] has the best
maps! I bring several to trade for the local survey books. Kinsale - stay
at Acton's, nice pool and singers in the pub. [but you're a week too early
for the art festival there, 22-30 Sept]. Donegal - step dancing in the
pub[s], was Wed nights. And before you leave Shannon, try Bunratty castle
quote: The castle was built in the early 1400's by the McNamara family, but
fell shortly afterwards to the O'Briens, kings of Thomond, who controlled
the castle until the 17th century. Admiral Penn, father of William Penn,
resided here for a short time.
Today, the castle's Great Hall hold a very fine collection of 14th to 18th
century furniture, paintings, and wall hangings. The Great Hall also hosts
"medieval banquets" complete with maids playing the harp, court jesters,
food a la the middle ages, and mead (a honey wine favoured by the Irish in
the middle ages).
http://www.historic.irishcastles.com/bunratty.htm
a good "feast" can be had after visiting the village outside the castle. The
mead is worth a 'try'.
best Museum 1999 Waterford Treasures
http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/mainpage.html
lots of general -local info
http://www.iol.ie/~discover/welcome3.htm
and for the food content:
Traditional Brown Bread [ I add raisins]
http://www.iol.ie/~discover/recipe.htm
Say hi to gramp's for me. Lord Morton of Morton parish, C.Cork.
Ru
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 18:44:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ann Sasahara
To: Robin Carroll-Mann
CC: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)"
Greetings
I'm very behind in my mail. I hope this is helpful.
My family and I were in Dublin a couple on months ago and I had a pretty
good time in spite of rain and a bank holiday. I omitted the
Guinness-related things and most of the children's activities. You asked
about a variety of things:
Places to stay: We didn't stay at a B & B, but we did have a nice stay at
the Camden Court Hotel at Camden St and Adelaide Rd. The restaurant
served a good regional specialty soup called "Dublin Coddle" (potatoes,
onions, sausage and bacon) which was perfect on damp rainy days. (I was
surprised at the number of Indian restaurants, but the curry was also
welcome in the damp June weather.)
Pubs: The Camden Court pub is Piseogs ("Legends"). It's a weird,
circular, tourist pub. The pubs near Trinity College were friendlier.
The best pub we went to was The Brazen Head on Bridge St near the Liffey.
It's Ireland's oldest pub, established in 1198 - the drinks are much
fresher. The cider was excellent. The Guinness was exceptionally strong
and bitter. I preferred Murphy's, which had the same rich flavour, but not
the bitter after taste. In the hotel brochure rack, there was a pub
hopping
tour: 6 pubs in one night.
The Brazen Head's restaurant was closed (bank holiday) so we went across
the street to O'Shea's Restaurant. We had a filling lamb stew w/ fresh
bread, lamb cutlets and grilled salmon at reasonable prices. The band
started playing Irish music at about 9pm
Cider: Strongbow, a crisp delightful slightly sweet cider was available
everywhere, even in London.
Shopping: since we didn't have a car, I only know the shopping places near
the college and the tour bus stop: O'Connell St, Ld Edward St-Dame St and
Nassau St. O'Connell is the best place for tourist items like T-shirts,
souvenirs, discounted woolens and knits. There was even one store near
the DublinTour/Guide Friday bus stop that had bohrains for L19 - L60
depending on size. (L1.00 = $1.36 June 4th rate) I didn't see anything
here that I didn't see in the other two shopping areas. Ld Edward/Dame St
was slightly more expensive.
Ld Edward-Dame St is the stretch of road between Trinity College and
Christ Church. It had a little bit of everything: bookstores, local
crafts, tourist knick-knacks and galleries. This is where I spent money.
Nassau St. is located immediately south of Trinity College. It has a
variety of pricey, non-student stores. Waterford has a store there, as
well as Irish woolens and Celtic Music. If you look in the hotel tourist
brochure racks, you will find a L1.00 off coupon for the Celtic Music
store.
Things to do:
Trinity College: the chapel had some nice stained glass windows. The old
library has The Book of Kells. The displays involved videotapes of
medieval calligraphy and bookbinding and natural pigments. We viewed this
on the way to see the Book, so it wasn't a boring wait in line. They had
two of the volumes of the Book of Kells as well as the Book of Armagh,
under glass on display. Behind the books is a stairway leading up to the
Long Room. At the beginning of the Room is a glass case on the right with
the oldest Irish harp. The pamphlet said it was the harp of Brian Boru,
but I doubt it. It is however a beautifully carved harp and it is the
harp depicted on all the Irish coinage.
The stairs from the Long Rm lead down into the gift shop. The only
cookery books they had were:
The Ballymaloe Cookbook, a cookbook put out by a popular restaurant
and
Traditional Irish Recipes, by George Thomson, a nicely illuminated and
calligraphied book of contemporary and traditional Irish recipes that use
potatoes, tomatoes and other things. It does have a recipe for Boxty
bread, which was a past cooks-list topic - there are Boxty panckes too.
There are many, many books on medieval topics, except cookery.
The real bargain is the Book of Kells on CD-ROM. It's a full reproduction
of the Book with special close-ups of 14 pages. It uses QuickTime to
"turn" the pages. QuickTime is included on the CD-ROM.
Dublin Castle: it was tediously Restoration, but the garden in the back
was nicely contemporary and the Chester Beatty Library (jade books,
illuminated Q'urans, books of hours, etc) was the best thing about the
Castle. In the castle shop right off of Dame St you can get a guide book
called _Medieval Dublin by Violet Martin. The book is exceptionally
detailed and has a fold out map. The first stop listed in the book is
right outside the castle shop: Dame Gate. The book covers an area of
Dublin that's easily walked (30 min in any direction); which is good,
because there isn't much available parking.
Dublinia/Christ Church: We purchased a combined ticket. You start at the
Dublinia side and progress through the displays and activity rooms. It
was cold and rainy outside, so the kids really liked this. My favorite was
the 15 th c Dublin diorama w/ the talking history buttons. The kids liked
the medieval fair room where we looked at period foods & spices and played
ring toss. There is a stairway to the top of St Michael's Tower ~200',
which I let the kiddies do w/o me. They said it had great views. I'll
take their word.
We entered Christ church through the Dublinia bookstore. The first thing
I noticed was the colorful floor tiles - they are the originals. The Lady
Chapel was the best part of the church, including the heart of St
Laurence, a relic that survived the dissolution of the monasteries. The
crypt is highly over-rated. There is a Restoration Era display of church
plate in the crypt that's not quite worth the L2 admission. The rest of
the crypt is free of charge. All the guide books are wrong about the
mummified cat and rat from the organ pipe. The mummified cat/rat display
was moved out of the crypt into the nave, to a niche to the right of the
crypt doorway, about 10' above the floor. They made it impossible to
see/find. Also in the nave, is an effigy (by the gift counter) of
Strongbow (Richard de Clare, 2 nd Earl of Pembroke). He was the Norman
conqueror of Dublin, friend of Henry II, founder of Christ Church and the
namesake of a yummy cider.
Natl Museum (TaraBrooch)/St Patrick's Cathedral (Swift's burial place, but
that's a different SCA-cooks thread)/Marsh's Library (Ireland's oldest
public library)/The Viking Adventure: we ran out of time. Let me know how
they are.
Things to do outside of Dublin:
Malahide: We took a half-day trip to Malahide Castle about an hour north
of Dublin. Founded in 1185, it's one of the oldest castles in Ireland and
in perfect condition. The front exterior and upper front rooms and the
Great Hall are still period (1500s). The paneling and furniture are
splendid. Ignore the Chippendale chairs in the Great Hall. The side and
back living areas are Restoration and Georgian. The shop had the same
medieval and cookery books as Trinity College. The drive along the coast
with the June wildflowers in bloom on the rocky cliffs was exceptional -
picnic perfect.
Glenalough/Powerscourt/Bailey's: they're in a line on a highway between
Arklow and Dublin and they can be done, more or less, in one day.
Glenalough has a 10 th c round tower that fits your period. The buildings
and hermit cave at the upper lake are earlier and the buildings at the
lower lake are 12 th c. St Kevin's kitchen (lower lake) is really an
oratory - the bell tower just looks like a chimney. Powerscourt is a
collection of impressive gardens. Be sure to see the tiny Japanese garden
hidden in the trees to the left of the lake. ICON is where Bailey's Irish
Cream is made. There is a tour, a tasting and a shop. They have an
audio-visual show of the Newgrange Neolithic site called "Eriu".
Newgrange: restored Neolithic burial mound. A half-day trip from Dublin,
but we went to Malahide instead. If you go, let me know how it was.
Ariann
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:42:33 -0700
From: Sue Clemenger
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period gifts in jars + question
To: Cooks within the SCA
Martin G. Diehl wrote:
> While in Dublin, were you able to visit any of these or
> other Neolithic sites?
Yes, I did get to see a few things in Ireland, although I was really
only there for three days. I took one whole day and went on a mini
package-tour that took us to Newgrange (which was f***ing AWESOME!), and
Tara. IIRC, we could see Knowth from Newgrange, but didn't go there.
They also have nifty museums in Dublin (and, bless them, they're all
free--paid for by the national lottery), so I got to see some *way* cool
stuff at the National Museum, including some way-BC (by a few 1000
years) hazelnuts (how's that for obligatory food content). And the new
exhibit for the Book of Kells, of course. ;o)
They also have an amazing East Indian restaurant in Dublin, called...oh,
heck, I can't find the flyer I saved, but it's in the main part of town,
south of the Liffey, and within easy walking distance of Trinity. It's
on Lower Baggot St. Curry heaven, and different kinds of breads and
chutneys...ooooh, almost worth the plane trip back there, just for that.
I did not, however, have a chance to have any fresh seafood--a
restaurant I'd planned on going to was undergoing renovations.
Newgrange, as far as I'm concerned, was way cooler than Stonehenge, if
at least in part because I was actually able to go inside, whereas with
Stonehenge, you're at a bit of a distance. The historical Powers That
Be had just opened a new visitors' center when I was there, and it's got
some very interesting displays, and an interesting walk that you take to
get to the shuttle bus spot, which is along this path landscaped with
the different plants from the ogham alphabet.
Tara was kind of interesting, too. We had a decent day for a view
(apparently, rumor has it that you can see all 26 counties from there on
a really clear day). Lots of really long grass, and interesting lumps
and ditches--really gave me a good appreciation for historians and
archaeologists who can actually make sense of it.
--maire "can you tell I'm partial?" ni nuanain
Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:34:50 -0400
From: Sandra Kisner
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: BMR: O'Sullivan, Hospitality in Medieval
Ireland (Waters)
To: Cooks within the SCA
Here's an excerpt. I can send the rest to anyone who's interested. The
review is actually relatively short for BMR.
Sandra
> O'Sullivan, Catherine Marie, “Hospitality in Medieval Ireland,
> 900-1500”. Dublin, Four Courts Press, 2004. Pp. 272. 45 GBP [$55
> USD]. ISBN 1851827455 (hb).
>
> This volume sets out to address hospitality from a number of angles.
> The author addresses the classes of travelers who were entitled to
> hospitality and discusses what each grade could expect in terms of
> food, lodging and treatment as well as discussing who was required to
> supply hospitality and the particular demands placed on certain groups
> such as religious institutions, professional guesthouse keepers and the
> learned classes. She also addresses the demands hospitality placed on
> households and institutions of varying means. Additionally, she
> explores the reasons this rigid system of hospitality was in place as
> well as the advantages which the hospitable host could accrue through
> his actions.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:46:43 +1100 (EST)
From: "Cian Gillebhrath"
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Book of Armagh
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list"
On Wed, October 14, 2009 09:10, Sandra Bobleter wrote:
<<< Can anyone tell me where I can find the (Irish) Book of Armagh in
English, in print or online? I've Googled but not come up with anything
except a few excerpts. >>>
I believe that you might be best served trying to find the following
(which might be rare as I believe only 400 were originally printed).
Gwynn, John. Liber Ardmachanus / The book of Armagh. Dublin: Pub. for
the Royal Irish Academy by Hodges Figgis & Co.; London: Williams &
Norgate, 1913. Folio (32.5 cm, 12.75"). [4], ccxc, [2], 503, [1] pp.; 6
plts.
Cian.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:51:51 +1100 (EST)
From: "Cian Gillebhrath"
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Book of Armagh
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list"
I found the Gwynn book available in a proposed reprint:
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/14516//Location/Oxbow
I don't know how much of it is a facsimile and how much is translated, but
the forward/explanations seem to be in English.
Cian.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:34:52 +1030
From: Sandra Bobleter
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Book of Armagh
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list"
I certainly appreciate your finding this, Cian. Desperately would like
to get one, but at 150 [pounds Sterling] they're wishing! Wonder what they charge for postage?
Bianca.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:34:13 +1030
From: Sandra Bobleter
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Book of Armagh
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list"
Greetings, Lord Stefan,
The entries in the various 'pedias cited by others in this list are
indeed correct; the Book of Armagh is kept on display with the Book of
Kells. While not at all exciting with regards to illumination, I was
specifically interested in it because it is meant to contain some
references to the Tuatha de Danann or the Sidhe, I would assume in what
is known as the first part of the Book, referring to St Patrick's life.
I have found a possible reference here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/ffcc240.htm#fn_219 - look at
the first footnote at the bottom, corresponding to the title of this
excerpt.
Bianca Valois.
Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< when was
the original written and why would someone be interested in it, or a
reprint of it? Is this a good example for period (Irish?) illumination
or calligraphy? Irish tales?
Stefan >>>
The footnote mentioned above has this to say:
283:1 Chief general references: Le Cycle Mythologique Irlandais (Paris, 1884) and L'Epopée celtique en Irlande (Paris, 1892)--both by H. D'Arbois de Jubainville. Chief sources: The Book of Armagh, a collection of ecclesiastical MSS. Probably written at Armagh, and finished in A.D. 807 by the learned scribe Ferdomnach of Armagh; the Leabhar na h-Uidre or 'Book of the Dun Cow', the most ancient of the great collections of MSS. containing the old Irish romances, compiled about A.D. 1100 in the monastery of Clonmacnoise; the Book of Leinster, a twelfth-century MS compiled by Finn Mac Gorman, Bishop of Kildare; the Yellow Book of Lecan (fifteenth century); and the Book of Lismore, an old Irish MS found in 1814 by workmen while making repairs in the castle of Lismore, and thought to be of the fifteenth century. The Book of Lismore contains the Agallamh na senórach or 'Colloquy of the Ancients' which has been edited by S. H. O'Grady in his Silva Gadelica (London, 1892), and by Whitley Stokes, Ir. Texte, iv. I. For additional texts and editions of texts see Notes by R. I. Best to his translation of Le Cycle Mythologique Irlandais (Dublin, 1903).
From: Alexandria Doyle
Date: June 6, 2010 9:33:25 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc."
Subject: [Ansteorra] Period sources of Ireland, Scotland and England
Thre are some interesting period sources, electronically entered that
include "Annals of Scotland" "Descriptions of Ireland" and " The
Principal Navigations, Voyages, Traffiques, and Discoveries of the
English Nation" that I thought some might like to check out.
There are also some classic sources on other pages of this site as well.
alex
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 07:20:10 -0400
From: Garth Groff
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu
Subject: [MR] Digitized Scottish Book
My favorite kilt store, Celtic Croft, posted a link on their news page
to a digitized book called THE BOOK OF THE CLUB OF TRUE HIGHLANDERS
complied by Charles Niven McIntyre in 1881:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/club/index.htm . Much of it
seems to be out of period, or typical Victorian romantic drivel. Quite a
bit is Irish or Britanic, and has nothing to do with Scotland (including
a horny helmet; yes, it says this was actually found in the Thames, so
somebody must have actually worn these things). However, there are some
gems among these pages which might be useful to anyone interested in a
Scottish or Irish persona. Among the images of possible interest are
weaponry, household items, brooches, harps and other musical
instruments, and some sheet music. Reading the text might take a while,
but you can view the 100 or so pages of each volume via thumnails, and
thus select whatever pages which might seem of interest.
Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot
To: SCA Newcomers list list
Subject: Re: Thanks!
Posted by: "Ian Green" ianthegreen01 at gmail.com mystborne
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:49 pm ((PST))
Actually the book mentioned does cover Ireland as well. Though not as
completely. I'm still working my way through it as real life (you will
hear that term a lot) keeps popping up taking time away from my hobby.
I might suggest books by Dr Sean Duffy of the Trinity College in Ireland
for books on Ireland Specifically. For example the book "Ireland in the
Middle Ages."
http://www.amazon.com/Ireland-British-History-Perspective-Paperback/dp/0312163908/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1359690453&sr=1-1&keywords=ireland+in+the+middle+ages
Ian
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Shelby Stein wrote:
<<< That sounds like a great book. Do you know of any books that include
Ireland, or that cover Ireland specifically? I don't mean the politics but
the day-to-day living. >>>
From: Ian Green ianthegreen01 at gmail.com>
<< An excellent book about how people lived in the Middle Ages would be:
Making a living in the Middle Ages: The People of Britain 850-1520 by
Christopher Dyer, PhD.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/historical/people/cdyer
Book:
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Living-Middle-Ages-850-1520/dp/0300101910/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1359653205&sr=8-3-fkmr0&keywords=living+in+the+middle+ages+800+to+1600+book+england+scotland+wales
Highly suggest the book for anyone interested in how people lived in the
Middle ages for England, Wales and Scotland. It covers the nobility, the
non-nobles and the Church very well.
Ian the Green >>
Edited by Mark S. Harris Ireland-msg Page 31 of 31