No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.iThere are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

The pasta might prepare you for a grueling bicycle race, but lust? Unless you have a weird food fetish.....?

That fetish has a name and it's called Sploshing.

Don't ask.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did. He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate. It's not that much of a stretch.

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

No, I asked fellow perishoners for advice on the oils (and Lenten practice in general).

In Faith Issues, things tend to get a bit more heated than on Convert Issues. Also, some of us evidently have not noticed that you are a catechumen and are treating you as if you had been Orthodox for a while. Please allow me to make amends and offer my words of advice and encouragement.

As a catechumen in ROCOR, ideally you should not be seeking guidance from any other source than your priest or ROCOR resources. I have worshiped in Bulgarian, Greek, Antiochian, ROCOR and OCA churches and they each differ a bit from each other. Some are more relaxed about these differences than others; however, at least in my experience, ROCOR does not fall in that number. The important thing to do is to blend into the congregation and to respect the instructions given to you by your instructor and/or priest. In the end, humility is the most difficult trait to acquire and it pays off to practice it even in minute details such as the use of oil during fasting.

As for fasting, I have not met a priest of any jurisdiction who does not advise newbies to take baby steps when it comes to fasting. Catechumens and newly illuminated members do tend to overdo it and then get disillusioned when they fail to attain perfection immediately! Just remember that fasting goes along with (much) increased church attendance, an intensified prayer life, almsgiving, watching one's mouth and thoughts, and just being more loving towards others. Most of all, please believe me that even if you succeed in achieving even a fraction of the above, you will be so much better than before.

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did. He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate. It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did. He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate. It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did. He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate. It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

Well, that's a different issue. I was just commenting on the theoretical possibility of the story, not its actual veracity.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did. He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate. It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

I do. That is similar to the way that I discovered that I had diabetes. But of course, since you know everything about everything, perhaps my doctors are wrong and I don't have diabetes and was imagining the whole thing.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did. He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate. It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

I do. That is similar to the way that I discovered that I had diabetes. But of course, since you know everything about everything, perhaps my doctors are wrong and I don't have diabetes and was imagining the whole thing.

You had no symptoms of diabetes and then slipped into a diabetic coma and nearly died after eating "high carb" (just like nearly every other American does all the time) for a few weeks?

If that is the case, I would highly recommend changing whoever was in charge of your medical care before a few extra servings of chickpeas nearly killed you.

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did. He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate. It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

Well, that's a different issue. I was just commenting on the theoretical possibility of the story, not its actual veracity.

No one [rhetoric alert] has no risk factors for type II diabetes nor symptoms then goes in to a diabetic coma after a few weeks of a moderate change in diet.

And watching someone who had arguably one of the most sudden and severe onsets of type II diabetes according to his physician and specialists he was referred to, color me suspicious.

He has a family history of diabetes and at his yearly check up complained of sluggishness, fatigue, and lowered libido. His doctor suggested it was age and to rest some more. He was an active runner and who was not overweight at the time.

Within the next nine months his weight starting going up without any change in diet and exercise. His libido decreased and he began to feel numbness in his feet which he chalked up to new running shoes.

At nine months after his check up, he had blood in his urine.

Had his physician taken seriously or had he presented more strongly the fatigue and loss of libido at his check up, he probably could have avoided the "sudden onset" of diabetes.

Good news, after a few years of getting nowhere with the typical dietary suggestions (he was nearly compliant with them his whole life), he went low carb for real and made a complete "recovery".

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok

Its not confusing at all. grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil. That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection. Thus they are both resurrectional foods.

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.

I'll second the LOL.

Apparently with squid, bashing rather than "pressing the living thing to death," draining it of all ink, is swell though.

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did. He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate. It's not that much of a stretch.

She's still not saying that it caused the diabetes, but that it caused a serious problem.

Unless you think a diabetic coma isn't a serious problem?

Frankly, I don't believe it.

Well, that's a different issue. I was just commenting on the theoretical possibility of the story, not its actual veracity.

No one [rhetoric alert] has no risk factors for type II diabetes nor symptoms then goes in to a diabetic coma after a few weeks of a moderate change in diet.

And watching someone who had arguably one of the most sudden and severe onsets of type II diabetes according to his physician and specialists he was referred to, color me suspicious.

He has a family history of diabetes and at his yearly check up complained of sluggishness, fatigue, and lowered libido. His doctor suggested it was age and to rest some more. He was an active runner and who was not overweight at the time.

Within the next nine months his weight starting going up without any change in diet and exercise. His libido decreased and he began to feel numbness in his feet which he chalked up to new running shoes.

At nine months after his check up, he had blood in his urine.

Had his physician taken seriously or had he presented more strongly the fatigue and loss of libido at his check up, he probably could have avoided the "sudden onset" of diabetes.

Good news, after a few years of getting nowhere with the typical dietary suggestions (he was nearly compliant with them his whole life), he went low carb for real and made a complete "recovery".

Fortunately, the phrase "diabetic coma" was my choice of words and a deliberate exaggeration at that. In nowhere does Maria use that term. She does, however, use the word "faint."

You are also assuming that the person in question was a) seeing a doctor regularly, b) taking care of himself to begin with and c) that, as noted, it was a "diabetic coma" (again my words, not hers) and not just an instance of a blood sugar crash. We don't. You're also assuming that the person in question was already eating a typical American high carb diet. You're making all kinds of assumptions on this one story and yet you lambast others who do the same.

And to echo Punch (another thing I rarely do), I know two people who discovered their diabetes in much the same way.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok

Its not confusing at all. grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil. That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection. Thus they are both resurrectional foods.

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.

I'll second the LOL.

Apparently with squid, bashing rather than "pressing the living thing to death," draining it of all ink, is swell though.

No need to bash or press squid to get rid of the ink. Squid, unlike cuttlefish, discharge most of their ink as they're being caught. Any remaining ink is discharged once they're caught. Cuttlefish are more devious, often saving their ink until they're landed - and then .... Many a time have I seen folks cop a faceful. Cuttlefish ink is stickier, thicker and blacker than squid ink. If it isn't sponged off hard surfaces (like the inside of boats) straight away, only scourer pads and heavy-duty detergents will get it off.

OTOH, octopus needs to be bashed after it's caught, but it's nothing to do with the ink. A good belting tenderizes it.

No need to bash or press squid to get rid of the ink. Squid, unlike cuttlefish, discharge most of their ink as they're being caught. Any remaining ink is discharged once they're caught. Cuttlefish are more devious, often saving their ink until they're landed - and then .... Many a time have I seen folks cop a faceful. Cuttlefish ink is stickier, thicker and blacker than squid ink. If it isn't sponged off hard surfaces (like the inside of boats) straight away, only scourer pads and heavy-duty detergents will get it off.

OTOH, octopus needs to be bashed after it's caught, but it's nothing to do with the ink. A good belting tenderizes it.

Hah, thanks for the correction about the ink. But either way, our little tentacled friends get bashed. Seems so unLenteny.

No need to bash or press squid to get rid of the ink. Squid, unlike cuttlefish, discharge most of their ink as they're being caught. Any remaining ink is discharged once they're caught. Cuttlefish are more devious, often saving their ink until they're landed - and then .... Many a time have I seen folks cop a faceful. Cuttlefish ink is stickier, thicker and blacker than squid ink. If it isn't sponged off hard surfaces (like the inside of boats) straight away, only scourer pads and heavy-duty detergents will get it off.

OTOH, octopus needs to be bashed after it's caught, but it's nothing to do with the ink. A good belting tenderizes it.

Hah, thanks for the correction about the ink. But either way, our little tentacled friends get bashed. Seems so unLenteny.

And to this Slavic American it sounds disgusting. Yuck... No wonder we're OK with beer.

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Applesauce spread on warm toast is a good substitute for butter or olive oil.Sometimes, I spread almond butter over the applesauce.My husband did not even notice the difference. He thought it was butter.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 06:52:47 PM by Maria »

Logged

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

just to confuse things further~~~olive oil is definitly out.......but olives are ok

Its not confusing at all. grapes ok but not wine, olives ok but not olive oil. That is because both are achieved by pressing the living thing to death, and getting living abundance from it, i.e. a symbol of the resurrection. Thus they are both resurrectional foods.

Definitely a Post of the Month Nomination!

I'll second that.

And I'll LOL.

I'll second the LOL.

Apparently with squid, bashing rather than "pressing the living thing to death," draining it of all ink, is swell though.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace." When there is an anaphora offered, there is olive oil allowed, when it is not, olive oil is not. Blame St. Hippolytus who was the first (in extant writings) to make the equation. The blood of the fruit of the vine and the blood of the fruit of the (olive) tree is appropriate for Saturdays and Sundays even in Great Lent. If one wants to argue for their usage in the midweek, be my guest. I have already thought of three, and would not mind if the praxis changed. But if you wish to diminish my explanation of the current "strict" received practice and its (at least equal) legitimacy as to all the "possibilities," you are making a mistake.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You had no symptoms of diabetes and then slipped into a diabetic coma and nearly died after eating "high carb" (just like nearly every other American does all the time) for a few weeks?

If that is the case, I would highly recommend changing whoever was in charge of your medical care before a few extra servings of chickpeas nearly killed you.

Don't need to know everything to know which way the wind blows.

Since, unlike you, I don't know everything, I did not recognize the symptoms of the onset of diabetes. I also do not live in the doctor's office, so there would be no way that he would know enough about my condition to warn me. And “a few extra servings of chickpeas” is a particularly stupid statement on your part (and a perfect indication of your arrogant ignorance) since I do not eat chickpeas. I am pretty much a carnivore. During fasting periods, I used to eat a diet that very high in carbohydrates (mostly bread and potatoes). I get sick of salads about day three of a fast, but there is almost no way that a potato can be fixed that I don’t like. Potato pancakes, mashed potatoes, garlic potatoes, red potatoes, Yukon Gold potatoes, potato soup, potato and leek soup, mashed potatoes with sauerkraut, etc. I also like fruits, particularly citrus and bananas. Unfortunately, it caught up with me and I came very close to passing out at work.

I have had high blood pressure since I was 17 years old (and have been hospitalized with blood pressure in ranges of 220/116, and more than once), and the blood tests taken when I was in the hospital showed no indication of Type II diabetes (of course, I suppose none of the doctors or emergency room workers are nearly as smart and competent as you, so they probably repeatedly messed up my blood work over a period of 30 years, several different localities, and more than one hospital in some localities). But one day, about three years ago, during the Nativity Fast that I was trying to strictly keep due to the wishes of my new priest, and after a relatively long period without blood pressure problems, I nearly passed out at work. I had difficulty keeping awake, became disoriented, and was taken to the plant first aid room. My blood pressure was normal (for me), and on a hunch, our EMT took my blood sugar expecting it to be low. It was in the high 300’s. Pills did not work, and I have been on insulin since about six months after that. I have trouble keeping my numbers below 200 even with the insulin. According to the doctor (probably an idiot compared to you), my pancreas pretty much decided to stop working as it should, and probably had for a while. I probably did not notice it before since I usually eat a lot of meat and not as many potatoes, and did not recognize the symptoms during the previous fasts because I used to not go out of my way to keep them. This time I had gone most of the fast with no meat or eggs and lots of potatoes and fruit. But I guess things like that do not happen in Orthonorm World.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

You had no symptoms of diabetes and then slipped into a diabetic coma and nearly died after eating "high carb" (just like nearly every other American does all the time) for a few weeks?

If that is the case, I would highly recommend changing whoever was in charge of your medical care before a few extra servings of chickpeas nearly killed you.

Don't need to know everything to know which way the wind blows.

Since, unlike you, I don't know everything, I did not recognize the symptoms of the onset of diabetes. I also do not live in the doctor's office, so there would be no way that he would know enough about my condition to warn me. And “a few extra servings of chickpeas” is a particularly stupid statement on your part (and a perfect indication of your arrogant ignorance) since I do not eat chickpeas. I am pretty much a carnivore. During fasting periods, I used to eat a diet that very high in carbohydrates (mostly bread and potatoes). I get sick of salads about day three of a fast, but there is almost no way that a potato can be fixed that I don’t like. Potato pancakes, mashed potatoes, garlic potatoes, red potatoes, Yukon Gold potatoes, potato soup, potato and leek soup, mashed potatoes with sauerkraut, etc. I also like fruits, particularly citrus and bananas. Unfortunately, it caught up with me and I came very close to passing out at work.

I have had high blood pressure since I was 17 years old (and have been hospitalized with blood pressure in ranges of 220/116, and more than once), and the blood tests taken when I was in the hospital showed no indication of Type II diabetes (of course, I suppose none of the doctors or emergency room workers are nearly as smart and competent as you, so they probably repeatedly messed up my blood work over a period of 30 years, several different localities, and more than one hospital in some localities). But one day, about three years ago, during the Nativity Fast that I was trying to strictly keep due to the wishes of my new priest, and after a relatively long period without blood pressure problems, I nearly passed out at work. I had difficulty keeping awake, became disoriented, and was taken to the plant first aid room. My blood pressure was normal (for me), and on a hunch, our EMT took my blood sugar expecting it to be low. It was in the high 300’s. Pills did not work, and I have been on insulin since about six months after that. I have trouble keeping my numbers below 200 even with the insulin. According to the doctor (probably an idiot compared to you), my pancreas pretty much decided to stop working as it should, and probably had for a while. I probably did not notice it before since I usually eat a lot of meat and not as many potatoes, and did not recognize the symptoms during the previous fasts because I used to not go out of my way to keep them. This time I had gone most of the fast with no meat or eggs and lots of potatoes and fruit. But I guess things like that do not happen in Orthonorm World.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

except that we know that the oldest manuscripts have oil, not mercy, a point demonstrated by numerous writers including Dimitrievsky, Uspensky and Meyendorff. The Venetian text used for the Nikonian Slavonic texts was a mass-published divergence from the older texts with its eleion. It is what we have today due to the prevailing of the Venetian texts in both Greek and corresponding Slavonic translations, but we know it is a divergence from the earlier texts.

You had no symptoms of diabetes and then slipped into a diabetic coma and nearly died after eating "high carb" (just like nearly every other American does all the time) for a few weeks?

If that is the case, I would highly recommend changing whoever was in charge of your medical care before a few extra servings of chickpeas nearly killed you.

Don't need to know everything to know which way the wind blows.

Since, unlike you, I don't know everything, I did not recognize the symptoms of the onset of diabetes. I also do not live in the doctor's office, so there would be no way that he would know enough about my condition to warn me. And “a few extra servings of chickpeas” is a particularly stupid statement on your part (and a perfect indication of your arrogant ignorance) since I do not eat chickpeas. I am pretty much a carnivore. During fasting periods, I used to eat a diet that very high in carbohydrates (mostly bread and potatoes). I get sick of salads about day three of a fast, but there is almost no way that a potato can be fixed that I don’t like. Potato pancakes, mashed potatoes, garlic potatoes, red potatoes, Yukon Gold potatoes, potato soup, potato and leek soup, mashed potatoes with sauerkraut, etc. I also like fruits, particularly citrus and bananas. Unfortunately, it caught up with me and I came very close to passing out at work.

I have had high blood pressure since I was 17 years old (and have been hospitalized with blood pressure in ranges of 220/116, and more than once), and the blood tests taken when I was in the hospital showed no indication of Type II diabetes (of course, I suppose none of the doctors or emergency room workers are nearly as smart and competent as you, so they probably repeatedly messed up my blood work over a period of 30 years, several different localities, and more than one hospital in some localities). But one day, about three years ago, during the Nativity Fast that I was trying to strictly keep due to the wishes of my new priest, and after a relatively long period without blood pressure problems, I nearly passed out at work. I had difficulty keeping awake, became disoriented, and was taken to the plant first aid room. My blood pressure was normal (for me), and on a hunch, our EMT took my blood sugar expecting it to be low. It was in the high 300’s. Pills did not work, and I have been on insulin since about six months after that. I have trouble keeping my numbers below 200 even with the insulin. According to the doctor (probably an idiot compared to you), my pancreas pretty much decided to stop working as it should, and probably had for a while. I probably did not notice it before since I usually eat a lot of meat and not as many potatoes, and did not recognize the symptoms during the previous fasts because I used to not go out of my way to keep them. This time I had gone most of the fast with no meat or eggs and lots of potatoes and fruit. But I guess things like that do not happen in Orthonorm World.

Lord have mercy.I am praying for you. Let us pray for each other.

Logged

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

except that we know that the oldest manuscripts have oil, not mercy, a point demonstrated by numerous writers including Dimitrievsky, Uspensky and Fr. Meyendorff. The Venetian text used for the Nikonian Slavonic texts was a mass-published divergence from the older texts with its eleion. It is what we have today due to the prevailing of the Venetian texts in both Greek and corresponding Slavonic translations, but we know it is a divergence from the earlier texts.

MK was here

Scripturally, oil would make no sense. These verses are the basis of the wording of the opening of the Anaphora:

Hosea 6:6 :

διότι ἔλεος θέλω καὶ οὐ θυσίαν καὶ ἐπίγνωσιν Θεοῦ ἢ ὁλοκαυτώματα.

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes! Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat. If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs. We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast. But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well. In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them. HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days. He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes! Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat. If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs. We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast. But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well. In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them. HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days. He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

lentils mmm lets just say, I totally understand why that dish was used as the price for the rights of the firstborn in that drama between the biblical twins.

Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes! Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat. If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs. We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast. But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well. In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them. HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days. He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

lentils mmm lets just say, I totally understand why that dish was used as the price for the rights of the firstborn in that drama between the biblical twins.

That also explains why one of King David's greatest warriors protected a field of them so vigorously

I think you've inspired me to do a Bible study on lentils...lol!

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:48:09 PM by minasoliman »

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes! Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat. If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs. We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast. But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well. In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them. HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days. He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

lentils mmm lets just say, I totally understand why that dish was used as the price for the rights of the firstborn in that drama between the biblical twins.

That also explains why one of King David's greatest warriors protected a field of them so vigorously

I think you've inspired me to do a Bible study on lentils...lol!

or over them a splendid idea lol

Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

A high carb diet is not required in Great Lent. There are plenty of low carb vegetable and fruit choices. It is true that many monastics do get diabetes from a high glucose diet, but this can be avoided.

Yes! Legumes, lentils, whole wheat carbs, vegetables, and little fruit (not a lot) is usually a very good balanced diet, with good protein, the moderate carbs, and little fat. If people can maintain this type of diet in fasting, people will have amazing health benefits.

Many times in the Coptic Church people make the mistake of also taking too much carbs. We have a lot of potato, rice, and macaroni diets in the fast. But fava beans and lentils are also big in the Coptic Church as well. In Coptic monasteries, it is fava beans and lentils that are huge in diets, which I believe would lead to the health benefits seen in many of them. HG Bishop Makarius, a general bishop in the Coptic Church who serves the Eritreans in the US, only eats a diet of lentils, even on non-fasting days. He does have type 1 diabetes, but his health I can imagine is great.

lentils mmm lets just say, I totally understand why that dish was used as the price for the rights of the firstborn in that drama between the biblical twins.

That also explains why one of King David's greatest warriors protected a field of them so vigorously

I think you've inspired me to do a Bible study on lentils...lol!

or over them a splendid idea lol

I'll probably do both

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

Logged

But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

except that we know that the oldest manuscripts have oil, not mercy, a point demonstrated by numerous writers including Dimitrievsky, Uspensky and Meyendorff. The Venetian text used for the Nikonian Slavonic texts was a mass-published divergence from the older texts with its eleion. It is what we have today due to the prevailing of the Venetian texts in both Greek and corresponding Slavonic translations, but we know it is a divergence from the earlier texts.

MK was here but not that Meyendorff

Hi Mike. Actually, I was referring to Paul Meyendorff (not a priest, and therefore Fr. should not be in there), but as I revisited the text (Russia, Ritual, and Reform), I realized it was Fr. Taft I was thinking of, not Meyendorff.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.

Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case. However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today. Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.

Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case. However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today. Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?

That leaves the Slavonic version, which is one of the oldest versions outside the original Greek. The Georgian version would also be instructive. The latter, if not also the former, would not have been dependent on the Venetian texts.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.

Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case. However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today. Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?

That leaves the Slavonic version, which is one of the oldest versions outside the original Greek. The Georgian version would also be instructive. The latter, if not also the former, would not have been dependent on the Venetian texts.

The Venetian texts are solely responsible for the received Slavonic texts of the Nikonian reforms, and also the preceding revisions of the Ukrainian reformed texts.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.

Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case. However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today. Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?

That leaves the Slavonic version, which is one of the oldest versions outside the original Greek. The Georgian version would also be instructive. The latter, if not also the former, would not have been dependent on the Venetian texts.

The Venetian texts are solely responsible for the received Slavonic texts of the Nikonian reforms, and also the preceding revisions of the Ukrainian reformed texts.

Hi Mike. Actually, I was referring to Paul Meyendorff (not a priest, and therefore Fr. should not be in there), but as I revisited the text (Russia, Ritual, and Reform), I realized it was Fr. Taft I was thinking of, not Meyendorff.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Except for the fact that the Anaphora does not begin with "a squid juice of peace" but "an oil of peace."

I'm afraid "oil of peace" is an all-too-common mistranslation of the Greek. Eleos (mercy) and elaion (olive, olive oil) sound very similar in Greek, but have different spellings and etymologies.

Consider the Slavonic version of the opening words of the Anaphora: Милость мира. Milost' (mercy) in no way corresponds to масло/maslo (oil). I'm sure that the standard versions of the Anaphora in other liturgical languages uses mercy and not oil.

You're probably right. The Romanian is:

Mila păcii, jertfa laudei

Mila păcii would translate roughly as 'Mercy of peace'. Oil, in Romanian, would be 'ulei' or 'untdelemn'.

James

Same applies for Finnish. "Rauhan laupeutta" has definitely nothing to do with oil.

In Italian: Offerta di pace, sacrificio di lode.

In German: Erbarmen des Friedens, Opfer des Lobes.

In Spanish: Misericordia de paz, sacrificio de alabanza.

In French: Miséricorde de paix, sacrifice de louange.

Right, but quoting translations of modern languages that were dependent on the Venetian texts really doesn't help your case. However, I will say that I agree that "mercy" fits quite well there, is Scripturally sound, and is what we use today. Are you satisfied with this or do you still feel the need to argue?

That leaves the Slavonic version, which is one of the oldest versions outside the original Greek. The Georgian version would also be instructive. The latter, if not also the former, would not have been dependent on the Venetian texts.

The Venetian texts are solely responsible for the received Slavonic texts of the Nikonian reforms, and also the preceding revisions of the Ukrainian reformed texts.

Then that leaves the Georgian text.

Anthony Coniaris says:

Quote

The excellent book "Orthodox Worship" describes the meaning of the word mercy as follows:

"The word mercy in English is the translation of the Greek word eleos. This word has the same ultimate root as the old Greek word for oil, or more precisely, olive oil; a substance which was used extensively as a soothing agent for bruises and minor wounds. The oil was poured onto the wound and gently massaged in, thus soothing, comforting and making whole the injured part. The Hebrew word which is also translated as eleos and mercy is hesed, and means steadfast love. The Greek words for 'Lord, have mercy,' are 'Kyrie, eleison' that is to say, 'Lord, soothe me, comfort me, take away my pain, show me your steadfast love.' Thus mercy does not refer so much to justice or acquittal a very Western interpretation but to the infinite loving-kindness of God, and his compassion for his suffering children! It is in this sense that we pray 'Lord, have mercy,' with great frequency throughout the Divine Liturgy."*