I found this to be both amusing and insightful about the current state of the Episcopal Church.

That the Episcopal Church--an evaporating pond already overstocked with committed Muslims, witches and wizards, Sufi dancers, labyrinths, cosmic techno masses, Buddhists, John Spong, Marcus Borg, John Chane, and, yes, many people who engage in sex acts with members of the same sex--tosses an episcopal lesbian into the stagnating water just isn't news. Its sadly obvious that they desperately wanted the attention. They rented an auditorium that seats tens of thousands of people. They were preparing for a vast media presence. You get the sense that they really wanted to recreate that old magic civil rights breaking the barriers feeling--that rush of exhilaration: "Look at me world! I'm a brave revolutionary! I am defending the downtrodden, upholding the outcast, including the excluded!" They wanted the crowds. They wanted the coverage. "Everybody look! Here we are, an historic church. And look what we are doing. We're consecrating a lesbian! Isn't that grand? Aren't we the embodiment of all that the masses long for?"

How disappointing it must have been when no one took much notice.

The whole store is here (http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/sf/page/26078/)

Gingersnap

05-17-2010, 03:00 PM

Well, the whole edgy, clerical sexual heresy-thing is a ship that has already sailed.

They call it the Ship of Fools. :rolleyes:

noonwitch

05-17-2010, 04:21 PM

It seems there are a lot of issues in the Episcopalian church that are affecting membership, not just the whole gay clergy issue. TEC has been ordaining gays since the 70s, it's not like it's anything new.

Christians are never going to agree about this issue, although I will point out that the younger generation of 20 somethings (christian and otherwise) really for the most part don't care whether people are gay or not. My church's youth minister is gay. The kids and parents don't have any problems with it, and if they did, it would be kindly suggested to them that perhaps this is not the church they were looking for.

Gingersnap

05-17-2010, 04:36 PM

It seems there are a lot of issues in the Episcopalian church that are affecting membership, not just the whole gay clergy issue. TEC has been ordaining gays since the 70s, it's not like it's anything new.

Christians are never going to agree about this issue, although I will point out that the younger generation of 20 somethings (christian and otherwise) really for the most part don't care whether people are gay or not. My church's youth minister is gay. The kids and parents don't have any problems with it, and if they did, it would be kindly suggested to them that perhaps this is not the church they were looking for.

Liturgical churches are undergoing a deep sea change and it's not toward a more "open" social interpretation of Christianity. Young people who are actually actively engaged in the liturgical churches are turning to a more traditional, more doctrinal version of their denominations (something that has been gaining momentum for 10 years or so). This is causing conflict with the Boomer generation in a lot of places.

I don't know what's going on in terms of under-30 membership in liberal Christian churches so you may be right there. In more traditional denominations there has been an increasingly panicked yapping about young clergy and young leaders who take a much more elevated view of scripture and doctrine than their parents do.

FlaGator

05-17-2010, 05:26 PM

Liturgical churches are undergoing a deep sea change and it's not toward a more "open" social interpretation of Christianity. Young people who are actually actively engaged in the liturgical churches are turning to a more traditional, more doctrinal version of their denominations (something that has been gaining momentum for 10 years or so). This is causing conflict with the Boomer generation in a lot of places.

I don't know what's going on in terms of under-30 membership in liberal Christian churches so you may be right there. In more traditional denominations there has been an increasingly panicked yapping about young clergy and young leaders who take a much more elevated view of scripture and doctrine than their parents do.

The younger crowd at my church are there because of the traditional doctrine and teachings. They prefer stricter reading and interpretation of the Bible than they got from liberal churches that they previously attended. They don't really buy in to this concept of affirming the truthfulness of one area of scripture because it coincides with things they want to believe and disregarding other areas because they don't confirm preconceived ideas of truth. They accept the whole Bible as being the Word of God and not a book of sayings that they can cherry pick from.

Bubba Dawg

05-17-2010, 09:28 PM

I left the Episcopal Church and am now in a conservative Christian church.

(non-liturgical) :(

The reason I left had to do with a general lack of seeing scripture as Scripture and truth as Truth.

FlaGator

05-17-2010, 10:13 PM

I left the Episcopal Church and am now in a conservative Christian church.

(non-liturgical) :(

The reason I left had to do with a general lack of seeing scripture as Scripture and truth as Truth.

My church stays because we feel compelled by the Holy Spirit to witness to the fallen church.

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Mark 2:17

I believe that God is using several of us in my Church as we have assumed important roles within the diocese.

noonwitch

05-18-2010, 11:36 AM

Liturgical churches are undergoing a deep sea change and it's not toward a more "open" social interpretation of Christianity. Young people who are actually actively engaged in the liturgical churches are turning to a more traditional, more doctrinal version of their denominations (something that has been gaining momentum for 10 years or so). This is causing conflict with the Boomer generation in a lot of places.

I don't know what's going on in terms of under-30 membership in liberal Christian churches so you may be right there. In more traditional denominations there has been an increasingly panicked yapping about young clergy and young leaders who take a much more elevated view of scripture and doctrine than their parents do.

My liberal denomination (Unity) is not a liturgical church, and my church is one of the larger congregations within it. I don't know if homosexuality was ever an issue within Unity, but it certainly hasn't been for the past 30 or 40 years. It's also one of 3 totally gay-friendly churches in Detroit that isn't part of the Metropolitan churches (the gay denomination). I have a strong commitment to the belief that God's grace is available to all people and this is practiced at Unity. My church also is one of the only racially diverse churches in the area. I have a couple of issues with some of Unity's teachings, especially about health and healing, but I will never find a church I totally agree with.

Of course, as I realized I'll never find a husband at that church, despite my commitment to their openess, I go to Saturday services at an emergent-type church, that has a congregation of mostly people in the work force age (20-60). The music is loud and rock, so not many really old people go there. They are quiet about homosexuality, and I don't see too many openly gay people walking around there. My guess is that they don't actively condemn it and accept it in their friends and family, but also don't endorse it. I'm going to their singles' group picnic on Memorial Day. I like the service projects that they do in the community, both in Detroit and around the world. It's not a liturgical church, either.

I gave up the liturgical church a long time ago, and it had nothing to do with politics. The services are boring and few of the ministers are really engaging speakers. This is coming from someone whose brother is an ordained UCC minister and who's family backround is totally UCC, UMC and TEC.