Is it time to accept Bargnani's limitations?

Ummmm.... no. It is time to trade him!

It has been seven years, and the Raptors may have to simply accept that big man Andrea Bargnani, the No. 1 pick from the 2006 draft, will always have the limitations that have been obvious throughout his career.

Bargnaniís ability as a perimeter player has been his big positive, but he has never developed the post-up game the team had hoped for, and though he has gotten to be an average defender (thatís an improvement), he is still a poor rebounder. He has especially struggled this year, in which he has averaged 16.2 points on just 35.8 percent shooting. His 4.4 rebounds are his lowest average since his second season in the NBA.

And Bargnani has appeared frustrated at times during the year.

ďAndrea is who he is,Ē coach Dwane Casey said. ďIf youíre looking for rah-rah guy thatís not him. He doesnít show expression. Again thatís who he is. That doesnít make him a bad guy or bad basketball player or whatever. But I do know that there are players who are like that who just donít show any expression which doesnít bother me. My thing is, you know, just be consistent. ... I donít care about his expression. I donít care if a guyís a rah-rah guy or jumping up and down as long heís putting the ball in the hole and playing defense.Ē

Bargnani himself admits that the Raptorsí record in recent years is wearing on him, and he feels some pressure to turn things around.

ďMe personally, I would never say itís too early to worry,Ē Bargnani said. ďIt has been four years now that we have had a losing record, so itís definitely not early for me, Jose (Calderon), and the other guys that have been around. Nobody is thinking that itís too early. We definitely have to turn it around and we are going to play better starting now.Ē

He is a cancer on the court. Poor offensive decisions. Poor defensive rotations. He is taking inefficiency to a whole new low.

Not a big fan of using this to describe a player. And not a big fan of those who do use this word.

That being said, wtf happened Matt. I used to think of you as somewhat collected in your thoughts. Never imagined that I'd put you in the "Tim W. slot", when it comes to posts and such.

10 games - he's a C***** to you.
13 games - meh .... just an aberation. Personally I think he played more then 13 games at a good pace, but not really interested in arguing that.

Maybe AB's not destined for that All Star type player, and so being drafted 1st overall will continue to be his achilles heel. Idk.

Does this mean I accept bad games. Or disinterest. NO ... and NO. But I don't see a Super star coming our way any time. Not to sunny Canada! If anything I see Lowry, Jonas as potentials, with Demar & Andrea as outside shots. I'll acknowledge DD has been upping his value of late, but it's 10 games. So maybe he has a better chance of making that Star grade - I really don't know at this stage. Guys like Hollinger may have lit a fuse under his a$$. Remember Charlie V. then - pre-Stephen A$$ Smith. Remember Charlie V. now. Fame is fleeting for some. Others keep it going.

Suffice to say, there's a reason Casey plays him. Granted, I haven't been a fan of overusing Bargs, as Casey seems to do. But he's the Coach. And it's certainly not because BC makes it so. Give Casey some respect.

As for Tim's latest post - a repeat of 2 years ago - I prefer Grange, and his more methodical perspective. Some have considered Chisolm an idiot, excecpt when it befits a posters point of view. I don't mind Chisolm, as he does have some pertinent things to say.

Never-the-less .... kind of lost some respect for you Matt. Reminding me of Romney - and his ever changing thoughts. What really bothers me about Raptor fans these days, is how easy they turn on a player. Fields was a f*@king tool, then he's not - post surgery. Jose is a useless bum, then he's not. Demar was a "trade for 2 hockey pucks" before the season began. And Ed was a scoring machine, who should replace Andrea. Now he's offensively challenged. Tomorrow - who knows?

Point is .... we have a team. I prefer to get behind them, instead of resorting to the bi-polar persona, ever so popular around here at times.

Sorry Matt - but you seem like an anger managment case. At least to me.

Not a big fan of using this to describe a player. And not a big fan of those who do use this word.

That being said, wtf happened Matt. I used to think of you as somewhat collected in your thoughts. Never imagined that I'd put you in the "Tim W. slot", when it comes to posts and such.

10 games - he's a C***** to you.
13 games - meh .... just an aberation. Personally I think he played more then 13 games at a good pace, but not really interested in arguing that.

Maybe AB's not destined for that All Star type player, and so being drafted 1st overall will continue to be his achilles heel. Idk.

Does this mean I accept bad games. Or disinterest. NO ... and NO. But I don't see a Super star coming our way any time. Not to sunny Canada! If anything I see Lowry, Jonas as potentials, with Demar & Andrea as outside shots. I'll acknowledge DD has been upping his value of late, but it's 10 games. So maybe he has a better chance of making that Star grade - I really don't know at this stage. Guys like Hollinger may have lit a fuse under his a$$. Remember Charlie V. then - pre-Stephen A$$ Smith. Remember Charlie V. now. Fame is fleeting for some. Others keep it going.

Suffice to say, there's a reason Casey plays him. Granted, I haven't been a fan of overusing Bargs, as Casey seems to do. But he's the Coach. And it's certainly not because BC makes it so. Give Casey some respect.

As for Tim's latest post - a repeat of 2 years ago - I prefer Grange, and his more methodical perspective. Some have considered Chisolm an idiot, excecpt when it befits a posters point of view. I don't mind Chisolm, as he does have some pertinent things to say.

Never-the-less .... kind of lost some respect for you Matt. Remind of Romney - and his ever changing thoughts. What really bothers me about Raptor fans these days, is how easy they turn on a player. Fields was a f*@king tool, then he's not - post surgery. Jose is a useless bum, then he's not. Demar was a "trade for 2 hockey pucks" before the season began. And Ed was a scoring machine, who should replace Andrea. Now he's offensively challenged. Tomorrow - who knows?

Point is .... we have a team. I prefer to get behind them, instead of resorting to the bi-polar persona, ever so popular around here at times.

Sorry Matt - but you seem like an anger managment case. At least to me.

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Sorry to disappoint and sorry for the use of the 'c' word. It was meant to describe his effect on the rest of the team which has been evident this season while he is on the floor. He is also the 'anti' of what everything the team has been talking about becoming. It has been 7 years and the same issues still surround Il Mago. But back to beginning, poor selection of words.

I am not sure if all those points relate to me but here goes:

Fields is wait and see.

Jose is not a long term answer and any criticism has always been about his injury history. I said he played a good game yesterday - not sure how anyone could say anything else.

DeMar has played great and is living up to his contract. The contract still should not have been offered because the Raps lost significant flexibility via trade in early July. Raps could have matched anything. But if he continues playing as he has, he will earn every penney.

I don't think ED is a scoring machine. Never have.

I don't think I have anger issues but I certainly am angry with Bargnani - as a player. Sorry if years of backing him with nothing to show but 16/17 games doesn't make anyone else upset.

It is tough for me to be objective as I am a fan of Bargnani and I hope nothing but success for him in Toronto. He is unorthodox in his style of play but I think he can be part of a winner in Toronto.

One thing to remember is Bargnani talks about his love for playing for Ettore Messina. Being challenged by a coach is not an issue for Bargnani. Being challenged by a coach he respects is another issue. I don't think he respected Mitchell therefore his challenges were for not. I don't think Triano challenged him therefore his game didn't improve in areas it needed to. I think he respects Casey and is up to the challenges he places before him.

Again all my opinion and I realize I am not the most objective poster when it comes to Bargnani. On the flip side, I don't think many other posters are objective to Bargnani either - but in the other extreme.

Matt52 wrote:

Pretend it is 2016 and Bargnani has played on a healthy calf the last 4 years and is consistently playing like he showed he can this year in the first 15 games of the year and the last 5 he played. Combine his play with a winning franchise. I know the tunnel vision and preordained thought process regarding Bargnani forbid many from doing such a mental exercise but, please, just give it a try.

Lets revisit this in 2016.

Matt52 wrote:

The Raptors are now 13-16 with Bargnani in the lineup this season - and don't forget that includes the dreadful 10 games we all endured upon his 2nd return from calf injury.

Is it too early to say he has returned to his early season, pre-injury form based on last 5 games?

*We all know he can't rebound and his help D is atrocious - been there, done that, he isn't changing*

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heinz57 wrote:
uhhh... bargs is back and had a monster game.... what gives with it being like crickets in the busiest thread ever in the history of the board?

A reply to heinz57

Matt52 wrote:

Everyone knows how to hate.
Few have learned to appreciate.

p.s. He only had 6 rebounds. He sucks.

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Matt52 wrote:

.... Once people come to grips with with Bargnani's game and the roster matures and adds talent, he should become more appreciated for what he can do versus what he can't. There are games when he brings the whole package and he is truly a pleasure to watch. Unfortuantely those nights are not consistent. When the nights come around where he isn't putting it all together, it will be good to have the option to sit him because the roster will have players ready to step in.

There are still pieces to this puzzle missing and it would be a shame to toss Bargnani before the puzzle is complete.

My point to all this.

You had faith in the guy, but after 10 games - wtf happened. I know he's been sluggish this year, and everyone had high hopes that he'd instantly resort to 13 game (20 game to you) Bargnani. Yes, I'm disappointed in his play, with a few game exceptions. We won last game, and aside from 4 too many shots, I thought he played great. In Boston, he played like $hit.

My perspective on Andrea is not that he'll be a Star. My perspective is that - if he's a 6th man type - to which we've seen some talented players, then by all means, why can't this be his "resting place" for this team. And why can't Casey forge him into being a solid player. You said above that Mitchell was tough, but not respected. And that Jay T was too soft. Casey on the other hand, might be that guy.

My question is ... why not wait. What's the rush to slice off this arm of the Raptors ... so to speak. You of all people should know you get NO value for an asset under these conditions.

Anyways, that's why I was disappointed. You seem more level headed, as opposed to succumbing to the Hate Gang. You seem so enthralled by this pledge to get rid of Andrea - almost going above and beyond the call of duty - Tim W's duty that is. [Sorry Tim]

Anyways, that's why I was disappointed. You seem more level headed, as opposed to succumbing to the Hate Gang. You seem so enthralled by this pledge to get rid of Andrea - almost going above and beyond the call of duty - Tim W's duty that is. [Sorry Tim]
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Not going to lie .. I gotta agree with RapthoseLeafs on this one, I was little surprised by your sudden and markedly drastic turn of opinion. Can't say I blame you, but its a little too soon for me to throw in the towel on our guys. I have faith.

"That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

You had faith in the guy, but after 10 games - wtf happened. I know he's been sluggish this year, and everyone had high hopes that he'd instantly resort to 13 game (20 game to you) Bargnani. Yes, I'm disappointed in his play, with a few game exceptions. We won last game, and aside from 4 too many shots, I thought he played great. In Boston, he played like $hit.

My perspective on Andrea is not that he'll be a Star. My perspective is that - if he's a 6th man type - to which we've seen some talented players, then by all means, why can't this be his "resting place" for this team. And why can't Casey forge him into being a solid player. You said above that Mitchell was tough, but not respected. And that Jay T was too soft. Casey on the other hand, might be that guy.

My question is ... why not wait. What's the rush to slice off this arm of the Raptors ... so to speak. You of all people should know you get NO value for an asset under these conditions.

Anyways, that's why I was disappointed. You seem more level headed, as opposed to succumbing to the Hate Gang. You seem so enthralled by this pledge to get rid of Andrea - almost going above and beyond the call of duty - Tim W's duty that is. [Sorry Tim]

.

Just because Matt finally decided he's had enough of AB7, doesn't mean he's not level headed; it's not like AB is a rookie and he's only played 10 games. 7 years is more than enough time to make an educated (level headed) decision on a player.

You say "why not wait"... but we have waited, everyone has waited for SEVEN years. If my math is correct approximately 486 games (minus games lost to injuries) we have waited. What reason is there to wait any longer?

I hate to break it to you, but Matt wanting AB gone is completely level headed. Not wanting him gone, on the other hand...

Not going to lie .. I gotta agree with RapthoseLeafs on this one, I was little surprised by your sudden and markedly drastic turn of opinion. Can't say I blame you, but its a little too soon for me to throw in the towel on our guys. I have faith.

I'd be curious to see how Bargnani would handle the role of 6th man. I still can't get a grasp on what type of ego he has, because it seems like he just doesn't ever truly care. I'm afraid that he'd take it as a real demotion, and would in turn play even less inspired basketball(if that's possible). If he went to the bench, I'm assuming Amir would start. This would leave us with a starting 5, of which 4 don't really have an outside shot(assuming McGuire is still starting or Fields, and either Jose or Kyle is at PG), which really worries me.

This was the first off-season since '08 that I wasn't calling for Bargs to be traded, as I liked the idea of him being paired with a defensive minded C like Val. But he's still the same old Andrea, and he's not gonna change IMO. So for this reason, I'm back on the trade Bargs wagon. I have no more patience to watch him game after game, although I will be forced to.

Just because Matt finally decided he's had enough of AB7, doesn't mean he's not level headed; it's not like AB is a rookie and he's only played 10 games. 7 years is more than enough time to make an educated (level headed) decision on a player.

You say "why not wait"... but we have waited, everyone has waited for SEVEN years. If my math is correct approximately 486 games (minus games lost to injuries) we have waited. What reason is there to wait any longer?

I hate to break it to you, but Matt wanting AB gone is completely level headed. Not wanting him gone, on the other hand...

On the contrary. I've always considered Matt very level headed. If anything, it was more a surprise.
Just think we spend too much time on the negative side of Toronto sports. No doubt with lots of practice. Maybe we need Jays to go all the way. Take some pressure off.

I know this Start is frustrating to watch, because we could be 5 - 5 ... with very slight change to the timeline. However, back when we were making Raptor predictions, many saw a season start constricted by its' tough schedule. I would have hoped for a record of 4 - 6, settling for - but not happy - to a 3 & 7 stat line. Even with a full time Lowry in the lineup.

Our competition went like this:

Indiana (5-7 wth??)

Brooklyn (6-2)

Minny (9-5)]

OKC (8-3)

Dallas (6-6)

Philly (6-4)

Utah (6-6)

Indiana

Boston (6-5)

and finally Orlando (3-7) ... our only equal. Unless you argue Orlando has 3 wins against other teams, relative to Toronto's two.

We almost beat Indiana twice. We should have beaten Indiana twice. Or maybe not. Who knows how the Pacers would've been pacing, had they lost that first game. Do we win that second game against the Pacers because Indiana read all the press clippings.

Dallas was at home - rested - when Raps showed up on the second night of a back-to-back [OKC first]. Raptors made it a game, one for which Andrea showed up as well. 25 points, 9 Rebounds, 3 Assists, 2 Steals, 7-7 from the line, and 9 for 20 in the field.

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Until Lowry gets back, and our Secondary gets closer to a healthy status, it could be a rough ride. Kyle is the most important of those needs, because he changes not only Starter efficiency, he creates adjustment for the Bench's relative weakness - Offense. Having Calderon shuffled over, by virtue of a role that best fits this team, will mean a lot to the Secondary.

So ... in a nutshell (lol) ... I think this team, and all its' players ......... need a bigger sample before they truly be judged.

You had faith in the guy, but after 10 games - wtf happened. I know he's been sluggish this year, and everyone had high hopes that he'd instantly resort to 13 game (20 game to you) Bargnani. Yes, I'm disappointed in his play, with a few game exceptions. We won last game, and aside from 4 too many shots, I thought he played great. In Boston, he played like $hit.

My perspective on Andrea is not that he'll be a Star. My perspective is that - if he's a 6th man type - to which we've seen some talented players, then by all means, why can't this be his "resting place" for this team. And why can't Casey forge him into being a solid player. You said above that Mitchell was tough, but not respected. And that Jay T was too soft. Casey on the other hand, might be that guy.

My question is ... why not wait. What's the rush to slice off this arm of the Raptors ... so to speak. You of all people should know you get NO value for an asset under these conditions.

Anyways, that's why I was disappointed. You seem more level headed, as opposed to succumbing to the Hate Gang. You seem so enthralled by this pledge to get rid of Andrea - almost going above and beyond the call of duty - Tim W's duty that is. [Sorry Tim]

.

You pretty much nailed all the reasons for my sudden change of opinion and over the top 'hatred' for Bargnani the player.

I did defend him through thick and thin. I was one of the few writing anything positive about him before the start of last season (although I did admittedly jump off the Bargnani wagon at the end of 2010-11 season). This is not about his poor numbers or production (although that is certainly a result). He is not only playing poorly but he is also playing unintelligent, selfish, and lazy basketball. The fact he was able to play last year without all of these characteristics only makes matters worse. He is currently everything Colangelo and BC have talked about Toronto basketball NOT being moving forward these last 2 years.

If you don't share my passion, so be it. Much like I have done with the 'hate gang' in the past, I am more than willing to agree to disagree. There is reason for optimism in Toronto right now but, unfortunately and in my opinion, it is clouded by the presence of Bargnani. As Axl Rose once sang, "It takes one bad apple to spoil the whole damn bunch."

On the contrary. I've always considered Matt very level headed. If anything, it was more a surprise.
Just think we spend too much time on the negative side of Toronto sports. No doubt with lots of practice. Maybe we need Jays to go all the way. Take some pressure off.

I know this Start is frustrating to watch, because we could be 5 - 5 ... with very slight change to the timeline. However, back when we were making Raptor predictions, many saw a season start constricted by its' tough schedule. I would have hoped for a record of 4 - 6, settling for - but not happy - to a 3 & 7 stat line. Even with a full time Lowry in the lineup.

Our competition went like this:

Indiana (5-7 wth??)

Brooklyn (6-2)

Minny (9-5)]

OKC (8-3)

Dallas (6-6)

Philly (6-4)

Utah (6-6)

Indiana

Boston (6-5)

and finally Orlando (3-7) ... our only equal. Unless you argue Orlando has 3 wins against other teams, relative to Toronto's two.

We almost beat Indiana twice. We should have beaten Indiana twice. Or maybe not. Who knows how the Pacers would've been pacing, had they lost that first game. Do we win that second game against the Pacers because Indiana read all the press clippings.

Dallas was at home - rested - when Raps showed up on the second night of a back-to-back [OKC first]. Raptors made it a game, one for which Andrea showed up as well. 25 points, 9 Rebounds, 3 Assists, 2 Steals, 7-7 from the line, and 9 for 20 in the field.

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Until Lowry gets back, and our Secondary gets closer to a healthy status, it could be a rough ride. Kyle is the most important of those needs, because he changes not only Starter efficiency, he creates adjustment for the Bench's relative weakness - Offense. Having Calderon shuffled over, by virtue of a role that best fits this team, will mean a lot to the Secondary.

So ... in a nutshell (lol) ... I think this team, and all its' players ......... need a bigger sample before they truly be judged.

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I'm well aware of Toronto's record and competition.

I'm also well aware of Bargnani's 2 good games - which were both Raptor losses.

I'm also looking forward to Lowry's return. It appeared Bargnani was unable to coexist with a true talent and then he had those 2 good games but, alas, he is back to pre-Lowry injury form.

The team is certainly not being judged on 10 games. Bargnani, however, is being judged on 7 seasons. He is 27 years of age. He is who he is. He can turn his game on and off with the flick of a switch. There is so much talent. But what is the use and what is the point if he does not have the drive and desire to be his best? From watching the games, I can't see how anyone thinks he is putting in 100% effort at all times like is evident with players like DeRozan, Calderon, Lowry, and JV. What is the point of cheering for a guy who is not willing to lay it all on the line night in and night out for the paying fans and the fans watching on TV?

You know you are complaining about my negativity and focus. Maybe you should look at your own negativity bias. My posts of late have been complimentary to both DeRozan and Calderon. In fact I am ecstatic over DeRozan but just don't wish to jinx anything right now. I started a thread on Fields surgery that highlights the fact he is likely not a bust afterall. I continue to look for optimism in the youth of the team and the possible financial flexibility. I started a thread about the carryover of the roster for next season and the benefits of continuity. I was extremely happy to see Casey get back to a slower pace and grind out a win. I find the talk of Drummond over Ross amusing and think Ross is going to be a great Afflalo-type player.

Anyways, I do apologize for being a disappointment. I wish Bargnani would do the same.

Bargnani is reliably unreliable

Andrea Bargnaniís offensive game is, in theory, beautiful. The Toronto Raptors big man has the habit of putting together spurts during which he is unstoppable. He will take one controlled dribble to the side to elude a too-slow defender and unleash a feathery jumper. The ball will dip just in time, splashing through the mesh just inside the back rim.

During those spurts, he will sometimes go a few steps further. He will catch the ball on the baseline, take a few dribbles to blow by a defender, twirl and dunk the ball on the other side of the rim. Or he will get the ball in the post, dribble and turn around for a hook shot. He will get to double digits in scoring in an instant on the strength of these surges. For all of his flaws, Bargnani is tremendously gifted.

But as the years roll on, it is becoming more difficult to believe in those moments. Bargnaniís drawbacks are well documented, but even his offence exists more in the speculative world than the practical one. Bargnani has started the season averaging 16.2 points per game on 36% shooting. Following a three-game stretch in which he shot worse than 33% from the floor, his 7-for-19 effort against Orlando on Sunday was almost welcome.

He has performed poorly without star guard Kyle Lowry, who was brought in partly to make Bargnaniís life easier. But Bargnani is being paid US$10-million, a salary befitting a secondary star. Those players are supposed to be able to help carry the load when adversity hits.

Last year, in the 13 games he played before sustaining a calf injury that bothered him for the rest of the year, Bargnani supplied the best production of his career ó averaging 23.5 points on 48% shooting while adapting well to Dwane Caseyís defensive system. In almost every imaginable way, he has regressed back to his old self to start this year.

ďIím going to push him and pull him as much as I can,Ē Casey said before the season started. ďBut itís up to Andrea. The talent is there. Heís the only guy that can pull it out from himself. I think every method in the world, every scenario has been played for him for this organization.Ē

Bargnani has been typically maddening this season. In last Mondayís triple-overtime loss against Utah, he shot 3-for-4 in the first quarter and had an impact defensively. The rest of the way, he shot 2-for-13 and disappearing from the final 51 minutes as DeMar DeRozan, Jose Calderon and Amir Johnson tried to carry the Raptors to a win. That is Bargnani, at this point: reliably unreliable, varying from productive to lost within the span of single games.

Andy Lyons/Getty ImagesToronto Raptors' Andrea Bargnani has started the season averaging 16.2 points per game on 36% shooting. And that is just his offence. He has been poor defensively this year, and the Raptors have taken a major hit from last year. He is rebounding at the worst rate of his career this season, with DeRozan ó a shooting guard who has grabbed a mere 6.7% of available rebounds over the course of his career ó rebounding at a better rate than him.

Over the last five years, Bargnaniís individual defensive rating (the points per 100 possessions the Raptors allow when Bargnani is on the floor) has been equal to or worse than the Raptorsí team rating each season. And his offensive rating (the points per 100 possessions the Raptors score when Bargnani either shoots or turns it over) has only been better than the Raptorsí team rating once in that span ó last year, when he had that career-best stretch of games to start the season. That means putting the ball in the hands of Bargnani with the expectation that he scores has been an inefficient proposition. That does not account for Bargnaniís ability to create shots for others. Quite frankly, he does not do that very well.

Without knowing the potential return, it is impossible to say for certain whether the Raptors should trade Bargnani. His detractors would argue that Bargnani has been a net negative for his entire career, with three different coaches, a few different roles and a cavalcade of different teammates. They would say it is nearly impossible to hurt yourself by trading Bargnani.

His most ardent believers would argue that his ability to stretch the defence makes life easier for his teammates, even (and maybe even especially) when he does not touch the ball.

One thing is for sure: It is time to stop judging Bargnani on what he might be able to do and start judging him on what he actually does.

The stats from the chart at the bottom of the link is telling as well:

Here is a look at the Raptors' fortunes in comparison to those of Andrea Bargnani over the last four years. Also listed are the offensive and defensive ratings of Amir Johnson, the only Raptor to also serve in the frontcourt for each of the past four years. (Note: Johnson's offensive rating is not a good comparison for Bargnani's because Johnson is rarely counted on to score. When he does get the ball, it is usually in high-efficiency situations.)

Legend
ē Team offensive rating: the number of points a team scores per 100 possessions
ē Team defensive rating: the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions
ē Individual offensive rating: the number of points a team scores per 100 possessions when that player makes the final offensive play (shooting or turning the ball over)
ē Individual defensive rating: the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions when that player is on the floor