Should BPI Energy Auditors Become Licensed Home Inspectors? - Home Energy Pros2015-03-03T19:30:12Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/should-bpi-energy-auditors?groupUrl=bpi&xg_source=activity&groupId=6069565%3AGroup%3A2214&id=6069565%3ATopic%3A9081&feed=yes&xn_auth=noDo you know what they call th…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-21:6069565:Comment:346112011-04-21T15:07:08.195ZEd Minchhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/EdMinch
<p>Do you know what they call the guy that finishes last in his class at medical school? Doctor.</p>
<p>Here in Delaware, three years ago there were 2 firms in the state that where BPI certified. Checking this morning on the state website, there are 59 firms. How much experience does the average BPI auditor have today? We have enough of a battle keeping standards up to add the whole HI thing. We have all heard horror stories about an item that was not discovered at an inspection and the…</p>
<p>Do you know what they call the guy that finishes last in his class at medical school? Doctor.</p>
<p>Here in Delaware, three years ago there were 2 firms in the state that where BPI certified. Checking this morning on the state website, there are 59 firms. How much experience does the average BPI auditor have today? We have enough of a battle keeping standards up to add the whole HI thing. We have all heard horror stories about an item that was not discovered at an inspection and the buyer was faced with a big bill and the inspector had no liability - cost my sister $32,000 to rebuild a totally rotten, flat roofed addition that was not called out. If a flat roof isn't a red flag, I don;t know what is.</p>
<p>Just look at the new RESNET/ACCA energy audit standards to see how we will have our hands full if they have their way.</p>
<p>Ed Minch</p>
Thanks, Joel, for the clari…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-19:6069565:Comment:343662011-04-19T23:56:56.008ZJoseph Lamyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JosephLamy
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<p>Thanks, Joel, for the clarified info.I am glad to see there is considerably more attention being paid to combustion issues today than twenty years back. I have family in your town, and I always felt a connection there. Probably the result of "Austin City Limits" - the old Music fest on PBS!</p>
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<p>In Nevada, the law was passed in 2007 to start becoming effective January of this year. I no longer live there, but found the details do include similar issues to Austin's :…</p>
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<p>Thanks, Joel, for the clarified info.I am glad to see there is considerably more attention being paid to combustion issues today than twenty years back. I have family in your town, and I always felt a connection there. Probably the result of "Austin City Limits" - the old Music fest on PBS!</p>
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<p>In Nevada, the law was passed in 2007 to start becoming effective January of this year. I no longer live there, but found the details do include similar issues to Austin's : home-sellers are obligated to provide buyers the energy audit; but the big difference as you have made clear is that it does include BPI-standard audit info including CAZ testing for worst-case. Many older homes in the Silver state do not have sealed units, but rather are naturally aspirating furnaces in basements, living spaces or garages.</p>
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<p>I personally think the Austin approach to mandatory updates of HVAC and DHW closets to meet current code provides a necessary improvement, and I like it. It's my opinion that this is what culture and progress are about - to lift us up where we belong and pass on the best we know.</p> Joseph, I'm an energy auditor…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-19:6069565:Comment:339982011-04-19T19:25:16.774ZJoel Greenberghttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JoelGreenberg368
<p>Joseph, I'm an energy auditor in Austin, TX and I wanted to clarify what's happening in Austin. </p>
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<p>You're referring to Austin's Energy Conservation and Disclosure (<a href="http://www.greenbergenergyservices.com/ecad/residential/" target="_blank">ECAD</a>) audit. Home sellers are required to provide home buyers an ECAD audit for every real estate transaction on homes older than 10 years. ECAD auditors must be certified either through BPI or RESNET. We perform the audit…</p>
<p>Joseph, I'm an energy auditor in Austin, TX and I wanted to clarify what's happening in Austin. </p>
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<p>You're referring to Austin's Energy Conservation and Disclosure (<a target="_blank" href="http://www.greenbergenergyservices.com/ecad/residential/">ECAD</a>) audit. Home sellers are required to provide home buyers an ECAD audit for every real estate transaction on homes older than 10 years. ECAD auditors must be certified either through BPI or RESNET. We perform the audit based upon the information required on the ECAD forms provided by the city.</p>
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<p>As with all audits required by governmental jurisdictions, the auditors perform the audit to the requirements of the jurisdiction. In Austin, the residential ECAD forms are silent as to worse case CAZ depressurization tests, nor do they ask about CO. I've talked to a number of energy auditors before responding to this post and none of us perform worse case CAZ depressurization tests for two reasons:</p>
<p>1) it's not required by the City for residential ECAD audits, and</p>
<p>2) most HVAC and DHW closets are sealed from the living space and have "hi/lo" combustion air brought in from the attic, per the building code. Whenever a new HVAC is installed, the HVAC closet is brought up to code, so even older homes more often than not have combustion air installed.</p>
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<p>The ECAD audit does not require blower door testing, but it does require Duct Blaster testing. Duct Blasters are not part of BPI certification, yet I train my BPI students on using them so that they can be competitive in the Austin marketplace.</p> Adam, it was December 10, 199…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-18:6069565:Comment:342702011-04-18T10:08:52.252ZJoseph Lamyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JosephLamy
<p>Adam, it was December 10, 1994, Portland's Channel 8, as I recall around 5:00:01 p.m. PST.</p>
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<p>Likely a snippet of long-gone history except what sticks in the craw</p>
<p>of the guy who found it the reason for writing a law.</p>
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<p>Then I presented my experience at a Poster Session at Affordable Comfort in Chicago and had a poster of FOOD LABELS falling through an hourglass with the caption "It's time we see what we are BREATHING too!" or something like that. John Tooley…</p>
<p>Adam, it was December 10, 1994, Portland's Channel 8, as I recall around 5:00:01 p.m. PST.</p>
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<p>Likely a snippet of long-gone history except what sticks in the craw</p>
<p>of the guy who found it the reason for writing a law.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then I presented my experience at a Poster Session at Affordable Comfort in Chicago and had a poster of FOOD LABELS falling through an hourglass with the caption "It's time we see what we are BREATHING too!" or something like that. John Tooley had inspired me.</p>
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<p>Gillian Landfair was the young woman's name, an interior designer.</p>
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<p>Kate Brown introduced the legislation. The gas co's chief lobbyist held the Chair of the Change Committee at Oregon's Building Codes Division, and in one of our meetings, he said things like "There's no way we can hold old houses to anything like the standards for new houses!" My words, his sentiment. I countered with, "Do you mean to say that old houses are okay to gas folks, but new ones are for the living?" David Brook, from Oregon Energy Extension Service was there for that one.</p>
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<p>When I met with the ER docs and then the ER Social Work elite, I found even more reason to be concerned. The word I recall from those contacts was that they 'believed' the pulse oximeters readings of 90 something % oxygen, though they knew the oximeters were BLIND to carboxyhemoglobin. Strike one. Strike two came from social worker, Sheryl from Providence St. Vincent: "Joe, we have NEVER done a follow-up by going to the home to determine HOW the carbon monoxide poisonings occurred or what to do about them!"</p>
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<p>In other words, the problems associated with leaky ducts, CAZ depressurization and living spaces morphing into dying places were ignored. Oregon lost like 25 folks that year. Nationally we lose a few hundred a year. But the deaths are the tip of the iceberg. Thousands get gassed, quit their job, kick the dog, run amok and have no clue what happened. CO poisoning eliminates our higher functions, dashes our creativity, erases our memory and contributes to numerous psychological pathologies.</p>
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<p>An energy audit is more than an inspection because we have science, reliable instrumentation and an understanding that reflects accurately on health and safety issues in addition to structural and performance situations in someone's home.</p>
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<p>I'm all for NOT saying it's an inspection and not saying we're doctors, lawyers or chiefs of change committees, but a good energy audit can turn around a house and restore a quality of life, a level of comfort and a measure of affordability that may have been getting goofy from lack of attention.</p> I'm with you and I agree with…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-18:6069565:Comment:339802011-04-18T03:04:01.444ZAdam Zielinskihttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/AdamZielinski
<p>I'm with you and I agree with you. </p>
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<p>The way the law was written previously, it said that no "contractor" could perform an "inspection" on more than 2 "building components". Only licensed "Inspectors" could perform "Inspections." </p>
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<p>So the key thing for energy auditors is to not claim that their energy audits are "inspections." One BPI certified contractor got in trouble when he ran radio ads trying to get people to sign up for his "inspections." He used the…</p>
<p>I'm with you and I agree with you. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The way the law was written previously, it said that no "contractor" could perform an "inspection" on more than 2 "building components". Only licensed "Inspectors" could perform "Inspections." </p>
<p> </p>
<p>So the key thing for energy auditors is to not claim that their energy audits are "inspections." One BPI certified contractor got in trouble when he ran radio ads trying to get people to sign up for his "inspections." He used the wrong magic word in an ad and the CCB came down on him. </p>
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<p>As long as you avoid using the word inspection, and you are not claiming your energy audit is as good as or the equivalent of or in place of a home inspection done when a house is for sale, then you are fine. The state legislature is also clearing up the language in the law to make this more clear that inspections and energy audits can co-exist. </p>
<p> </p> Joseph, if you have a link to…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-18:6069565:Comment:340662011-04-18T02:58:21.289ZAdam Zielinskihttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/AdamZielinski
<p>Joseph, if you have a link to that story or a copy of it of any sort, I would love to see it or get a copy. </p>
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<p>Thanks, Adam</p>
<p>Joseph, if you have a link to that story or a copy of it of any sort, I would love to see it or get a copy. </p>
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<p>Thanks, Adam</p> Seventeen years ago, a woman…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-17:6069565:Comment:340632011-04-17T22:02:14.417ZJoseph Lamyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JosephLamy
<p>Seventeen years ago, a woman made the news in Portland getting gassed in her new old house. The six doctors who misdiagnosed the carbon monoxide poisoning had sent her HOME with new pills each time. Six doctors in the ER. Six doctors in a row! All armed with pulse oximeters that read carboxyhemoglobin as oxygen. Six in a row!</p>
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<p>I met with Kate Brown, my Senator and the President of Oregon's Senate. She totally 'got' the impact of duct leakage to the outside when I played the…</p>
<p>Seventeen years ago, a woman made the news in Portland getting gassed in her new old house. The six doctors who misdiagnosed the carbon monoxide poisoning had sent her HOME with new pills each time. Six doctors in the ER. Six doctors in a row! All armed with pulse oximeters that read carboxyhemoglobin as oxygen. Six in a row!</p>
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<p>I met with Kate Brown, my Senator and the President of Oregon's Senate. She totally 'got' the impact of duct leakage to the outside when I played the tape from the news article and showed her my toy house, reminiscent of Tooley's Mad Air house with an adjustable hole in the supply ducts to outside and the plastic tube 'flue', down through which the smoke (from an incense stick) was sucked when the hole opened up and the fan was running. The news article pointed out that a furnace guy with two meters had saved her life when he showed up and found 1) gobs of CO being produced and 2) the draft turned DOWN the chimney when the furnace fan came on. He scooped up the woman and took her to the nearest hyperbaric chamber and she stopped puking, peeing on herself and could remember her name.</p>
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<p>The bill we crafted (to make the worst-case depressurization test, from DOE, part of real estate transactions) was fought by the Real Estate lobby and Northwest Natural. Then the Real Estate Inspectors Association came up with their own bill - and it became part of ORS - that the inspectors are NOT liable for stuff they can NOT see, like radon, CO and friable asbestos.</p>
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<p>So a person could make an offer on a house, have it inspected, move in, turn it on and it kills them, but it's LEGAL in Oregon. So much for the value of 'LOOKING'</p>
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<p>Today the worst-case-depressurization test IS part of real estate transactions in several states and municipalities, including among others, Nevada, Missouri and Austin, Texas. So please enlighten us about the WISDOM of legislators and their bought and sold votes that have NOTHING to do with reason or sensibility. BPI has standards that go beyond LOOKING. Know why? I'm waiting in the 'second tier' as you say.</p> Adam, do you mean to say ther…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-17:6069565:Comment:343542011-04-17T20:54:55.264ZJoseph Lamyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JosephLamy
<p>Adam, do you mean to say there is something 'illegal' about an energy auditor NOTICING that the energy components of this performing structure have eroded its viability and TELLING the homeowner that something could be done to remedy it?</p>
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<p>That's what my contract says I'm being PAID handsomely to do! I am to check out ducts, insulation, etc. along with health and safety issues, durability situations and report them to the homeowner. That's exactly my purview as an energy…</p>
<p>Adam, do you mean to say there is something 'illegal' about an energy auditor NOTICING that the energy components of this performing structure have eroded its viability and TELLING the homeowner that something could be done to remedy it?</p>
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<p>That's what my contract says I'm being PAID handsomely to do! I am to check out ducts, insulation, etc. along with health and safety issues, durability situations and report them to the homeowner. That's exactly my purview as an energy auditor and NOT an inspector. Inspect = look. Looking is not the sole territory of inspectors, is it? "Look both ways before crossing street" does not make a pedestrian an "Inspector", does it?</p>
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<p>So whassup with this legislation?? As I have tried to point out, the performance and the structure are mutually interdependent in that each affects the other. Doing an audit and doing an inspection are not mutually exclusive and so there is enough overlap of substance that one informs the other, both ways.</p>
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<p>There seems to be a line in the sand that benefits not the homeowner who would be paying for it. If I could put myself behind the eyes of a homeowner, I would choose to see ALL the info, not a selected chunk that fell inside the realm of an inspector (structural) and then have to pay the same inspector to provide me a performance analysis too. I'd want both along with an explanation of the connections.</p>
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<p>A thorough energy audit/inspection of systems related to energy applies to both categories, NO?? And would the auditor or inspector "do time" for practicing forensic medicine without a license if he or she mentioned to the new homeowner/heir/insurance company that this sucking in the basement is how the previous owner died of carbon monoxide poisoning? And would this auditor/ inspector "do time" for practicing law without a license if he/she informed the new homeowners/heirs/insurance company of the liabilities of the PREVIOUS inspector who failed to recognize the living spaces were dying places because of the gapping panned joists created by condensation, rot, gravity and furnace fan in that order??</p>
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<p>If so, then our world has passed the point of no return, and I'll just go back to being a 'second tier' auditor, as you say.</p> Not exactly. The inspector w…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-17:6069565:Comment:339792011-04-17T18:37:35.475ZAdam Zielinskihttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/AdamZielinski
<p>Not exactly. The inspector would walk on water, but not be able to propose a contract to do the work. The energy auditor would "do time" for doing an inspection without being a licensed inspector. </p>
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<p>But this is all being cleared up in new legislation. </p>
<p>Not exactly. The inspector would walk on water, but not be able to propose a contract to do the work. The energy auditor would "do time" for doing an inspection without being a licensed inspector. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>But this is all being cleared up in new legislation. </p> In a home with $1000 December…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2011-04-17:6069565:Comment:339782011-04-17T15:30:38.490ZJoseph Lamyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JosephLamy
<p>In a home with $1000 December electric bills, the baseboard heaters and balloon framed walls with no insulation had teamed up to launch a young couple’s hard earned money up, up and away. The home inspector had not mentioned the construction detail if he had even noticed it in the 1940 house. The energy auditor DID mention it in January.</p>
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<p>And then the auditor went a step further in describing two alternate paths for remedies. One, hire a contractor to install high-density…</p>
<p>In a home with $1000 December electric bills, the baseboard heaters and balloon framed walls with no insulation had teamed up to launch a young couple’s hard earned money up, up and away. The home inspector had not mentioned the construction detail if he had even noticed it in the 1940 house. The energy auditor DID mention it in January.</p>
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<p>And then the auditor went a step further in describing two alternate paths for remedies. One, hire a contractor to install high-density sidewall insulation to the tune of $2 or so a sq. ft. of wall area.</p>
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<p>Two, use a batt stuffer and foam. The batt stuffer method would actually require two lengths of ¼” plexiglass a foot wide and of two different lengths. The shorter is used to open the path partially blocked by wires and roughed on the outside by nails penetrating through the boxing to make a smooth chute for the batt to slide up from the basement access into the open wall cavity. Using a mirror and flashlight, guide the first length of plexi into stud cavity, and with the second longer piece of plexi, stuff a batt into the cavity by placing the plexi in the middle of the batt sandwiching the plexi like a taco shell, and stuff that batt up into the cavity up as far as it will go, straightening the batt out flat inside the cavity as the plexi pushes up farther into the cavity. Finish off the opening in the basement side of the cavity with foam to seal. (John Krigger, 1979)</p>
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<p>Repeat from attic access if homeowners want to get maximum value, stuffing down and sealing top plate with foam after stuffing. Roof pitch was 10/12 giving them room to access, though minimal.The young couple opted for stuffing the first floor and foam sealing both the sill and top plates as a Saturday project, spent a few hundred bucks on batts, plexi and foam, and cut their electric bill down to three hundred bucks for February with nearly identical degree days – all while bonding with their home and each other.</p>
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<p>The utility program calls for BPI auditors to specify options in remedying issues that surface from the walk-through, visual-only audit, FREE to all customers. It paid off here.</p>
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<p>As a sub-contractor, my purview of inspection is not limited and does not carry any liability. The homeowner signs a form releasing me of liability, and I install water heater wraps, pipe insulation, CFLs, water-efficient shower-heads and aerators as a part of my gig. It seems the performance impacts the structure, the structure impacts the performance, and an effective energy auditor identifies these relationships. Lawyers are likely making bank on the split hairs while we are giving away the encompassing truth to those who benefit - the world.</p>