One thing to note as that most of the exclusive BMW magazines are operated by BMW enthusiests that probably have expectations that mirror our own here. I think there opinion is a little more valuable IMO.

One thing to note as that most of the exclusive BMW magazines are operated by BMW enthusiests that probably have expectations that mirror our own here. I think there opinion is a little more valuable IMO.

Jason

i disagree. enthusiasts, try as they may to be impartial, still display some degree of bias. point and proof is this forum, where our enthusiast biases are commonplace. at the end of the day, i give more weight to an "impartial" magazine like car & driver, than a magazine like bimmer.

Yes, someone that has driven everything from the GT3 to the family station wagon probably can make a good assesment of the M3. The problem is that the M3 is getting compared to everything and anything too, which is great for someone that has never been behind the wheel of a BMW but gives a vague frame of reference. When someone says the steering is numb, does that mean compared to a GT3, E30 M3, a station wagon?

I like that the BMW Scene, Bimmer, etc etc journalists drive BMW's everyday and are comparing the new M to what they drive. Be it a modded E36 M3 or a E46 M3 cabrio. I am not sure which article, maybe BMW Scene, but the journalist actually drove his E39 M5 to the road test and commented on the differences. Whats valuable about this is that most of us, BMW fans, have been in and around BMW's before. A journalist that drives an E46 M to work everyday has a better opinion, I think, on how the new M3 stacks up. Better than even a journalist that does a quick 1 day comparo. Better than someone that has only spent a matter of hours behind the wheel of any BMW. For example, someone that has spent years behind the wheel of M cars, in my opinion, has a better handle on what the new M3 needs to be and should be than someone who hasnt.

Guys, I've had my car three days now and have put almost 700 miles on it. My review will be coming in the next 24 hours and I can assure you that it will be completely honest and unbiased. You can expect the truth, warts and all...

I especially liked all of the details on the DSC and the fact that sport setting really allows a significant amount of slide and wheelspin. Sounds like a perfect setting for daily use and track use. This is consistent with the comments by Richter that he prefers to do his low 8 minute ring laps with DSC on (I'm sure he means with this sport setting).

I was a bit confused with the other ring time math. They say 20 seconds better than the outgoing model = approximately 8:10. The time I know from SA is 8:22 meaning the car should be around 8:02.

Just like the price hovering (in our estimates) just below or just above the $60k (USD) point it seems we will have the mystery of the 8:00 barrier for some time as well.

I especially liked all of the details on the DSC and the fact that sport setting really allows a significant amount of slide and wheelspin. Sounds like a perfect setting for daily use and track use. This is consistent with the comments by Richter that he prefers to do his low 8 minute ring laps with DSC on (I'm sure he means with this sport setting).

I was a bit confused with the other ring time math. They say 20 seconds better than the outgoing model = approximately 8:10. The time I know from SA is 8:22 meaning the car should be around 8:02.

Just like the price hovering (in our estimates) just below or just above the $60k (USD) point it seems we will have the mystery of the 8:00 barrier for some time as well.

Thanks Greg for the scans as well!

I don't believe that there is any mystery to the aforementioned lap time barrier. But, I guess we can hope.

I don't believe that there is any mystery to the aforementioned lap time barrier. But, I guess we can hope.

Are you implying that there are ANY official lap times whatsoever? Didn't think so...

We don't have a time from BMW nor a time from SportAuto - the only two really worth squat. And with all the BMW talk about differences rather than absolutes and rumors of BMW engineers quoting better times than the 911S I would say the time is clearly shrouded in mystery.

Are you implying that there are ANY official lap times whatsoever? Didn't think so...

We don't have a time from BMW nor a time from SportAuto - the only two really worth squat. And with all the BMW talk about differences rather than absolutes and rumors of BMW engineers quoting better times than the 911S I would say the time is clearly shrouded in mystery.

Sure the time is a mystery. I just don't believe that there is a mystery to a sub 8:00 min time (hence, my post), because I don't believe it will happen. You probably will disagree with this, but, nonetheless it's my opinion. And, no I am not going to explain in detail as to why; I think anyone here with a knowledge of these cars can understand why I might think what I do. They may not agree with it, but one should certainly understand why.

So, don't worry, the sky is not going to fall because I might have a little doubt that the almighty M3 is not as capable a track car/sports car that some here might think. Right or wrong, it's what I think. It's still a fantastic sports coupe.

Sure the time is a mystery. I just don't believe that there is a mystery to a sub 8:00 min time (hence, my post), because I don't believe it will happen. You probably will disagree with this, but, nonetheless it's my opinion. And, no I am not going to explain in detail as to why; I think anyone here with a knowledge of these cars can understand why I might think what I do. They may not agree with it, but one should certainly understand why.

So, don't worry, the sky is not going to fall because I might have a little doubt that the almighty M3 is not as capable a track car/sports car that some here might think. Right or wrong, it's what I think. It's still a fantastic sports coupe.

I just do not see how you can be so sure. I cetainly am not sure either way but I am open to the possbility and am willing to look at all of the relevant data. It seems clear to me your "pride" and love of P-cars leads you to some undeniable bias here. Let's look at the facts:

A BMW engineer reportedly claimed the car will best the 911 S at the ring

911 S Sportauto time is 8:02

BMW has a better power to weight ratio than the 911 S and has been found to out brake the Cayman S and base 911. Agreed in lower speed braking but this is a clear accomplishment given the much greater weight of the M3

Audi R8 SA time is 8:04

The M3 substantially trumps the R8 in power to weight when you consider power to the wheels

Testers have found despite the good AWD system in the RS4 they can corner and exit harder with in the M3 (R8 AWD = RS4 AWD, correct?)

BMW has been shown in multiple tests to out sprint the R8

Last but not least we also know that the European verison of the car when ordered with 19" wheels will come STOCK with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup+ tires (appropriate emphasis on the "+").

I am ready to go out on a limb here. Sportauto will achieve a sub 8 minute N-ring time with the M-DCT car with the aforementioned tires.

I am not ready to go out that far on a limb in terms of the MT non Cup+ tired car. But if it doesn't it is going to be dangerously close.

Is your opinion simply a hunch or can you better support your opinion with facts?

P.S. I'd be happy to place a large wager on the point in bold, ready to put your money where your mouth is?

I just do not see how you can be so sure. I cetainly am not sure either way but I am open to the possbility and am willing to look at all of the relevant data. It seems clear to me your "pride" and love of P-cars leads you to some undeniable bias here. Let's look at the facts:

A BMW engineer reportedly claimed the car will best the 911 S at the ring

911 S Sportauto time is 8:02

BMW has a better power to weight ratio than the 911 S and has been found to out brake the Cayman S and base 911. Agreed in lower speed braking but this is a clear accomplishment given the much greater weight of the M3

Audi R8 SA time is 8:04

The M3 substantially trumps the R8 in power to weight when you consider power to the wheels

Testers have found despite the good AWD system in the RS4 they can corner and exit harder with in the M3 (R8 AWD = RS4 AWD, correct?)

BMW has been shown in multiple tests to out sprint the R8

Last but not least we also know that the European verison of the car when ordered with 19" wheels will come STOCK with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup+ tires (appropriate emphasis on the "+").

I am ready to go out on a limb here. Sportauto will achieve a sub 8 minute N-ring time with the M-DCT car with the aforementioned tires.

I am not ready to go out that far on a limb in terms of the MT non Cup+ tired car. But if it doesn't it is going to be dangerously close.

Is your opinion simply a hunch or can you better support your opinion with facts?

P.S. I'd be happy to place a large wager on the point in bold, ready to put your money where your mouth is?

Sure, it can happen. The tires and the aforementioned tranny will likely improve the times.

Personally, the 8:02 for the 997S is one of the quicker runs. 8:05 seems to be the most popular reference. A 997S w/x51 (381 hp) "only" did an 7:59. I am always a little skeptical when the times are one second beneath the hour. Frankly, I find it amusing that one lap is the standard. Even if the M runs a sub 8:00 min lap, that doesn't mean any "ring" advantage will hold up lap after lap on another course. The M simply is not as focused a sports car as the 911S; and it's not meant to be. But, that is not what this post was initially about.

For the record, it's not that I don't believe that the M COULD run quicker than the 997S, it's that I don't think it will run a sub 8:00 lap. That is what I am responding to. As far as besting the 911, who knows. It will be close. But remember Porsche's hp bump may be all that's needed to keep it competitive in this type of test.

Do you find it fulfilling to argue with anyone who has an opinion that isn't BMW gospel?

At least your not quite as worked up as I thought you'd be, but you're still taking this a little too seriously. And, no I don't care to wager because there are too many variables that affect this kind of thing. Remember, I am very likely buying this car for my summer dd and maybe more fun car. So, I hope it does run fast. With that said, I am not as blindly brand loyal as some here.

I just do not see how you can be so sure. I cetainly am not sure either way but I am open to the possbility and am willing to look at all of the relevant data. It seems clear to me your "pride" and love of P-cars leads you to some undeniable bias here. Let's look at the facts:

A BMW engineer reportedly claimed the car will best the 911 S at the ring

911 S Sportauto time is 8:02

BMW has a better power to weight ratio than the 911 S and has been found to out brake the Cayman S and base 911. Agreed in lower speed braking but this is a clear accomplishment given the much greater weight of the M3

Audi R8 SA time is 8:04

The M3 substantially trumps the R8 in power to weight when you consider power to the wheels

Testers have found despite the good AWD system in the RS4 they can corner and exit harder with in the M3 (R8 AWD = RS4 AWD, correct?)

BMW has been shown in multiple tests to out sprint the R8

Last but not least we also know that the European verison of the car when ordered with 19" wheels will come STOCK with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup+ tires (appropriate emphasis on the "+").

I am ready to go out on a limb here. Sportauto will achieve a sub 8 minute N-ring time with the M-DCT car with the aforementioned tires.

I am not ready to go out that far on a limb in terms of the MT non Cup+ tired car. But if it doesn't it is going to be dangerously close.

Is your opinion simply a hunch or can you better support your opinion with facts?

P.S. I'd be happy to place a large wager on the point in bold, ready to put your money where your mouth is?