candygirl wrote:To her knowledge, the only people who even knew that Jordan came over to the house on the night in question are her, Rayanne, Rickie, and Jordan, which means one of them started the rumor.

What about Brian? I always assumed Brian was the one who started the rumor.

Yeah, I'm going to go back and watch that episode, because I thought I remember her knowing that Brian knew Jordan was there. After all, Rayanne, Rickie and Angela had a whole long conversation about whether she would go out to his car, and where would Brian have thought she had disppeared to? Also, when she sees him with the ID, doesn't she know he knows? I'll go back and watch.

Brian did start the rumor by telling Sharon that Jordan came over (although if you remember in Guns and Gossip, he insists, "I didn't lie to her, I just...What difference does it makes. I can imagine what she did with it.").

Angela did not know that Brian knew about Jordan's visit until near the end of Guns and Gossip when they talked about it in the computer lab. In Dancing in the Dark, Angela never tells him that Jordan is coming over. Instead she says, "Um, listen, Rayanne Graff and Rickie Vasquez might be coming over ... for a minute, just to bring me something." When Rayanne and Rickie arrive, they discuss with Angela the prospect of talking to Jordan and ruining the fantasy, they are in the living room while Brian is still in the kitchen with the mouse. Angela has no reason to believe that Brian is eavesdropping on their conversation, so she assumes (rightly so) that he doesn't know that Jordan is parked in front of his house. When Angela goes outside to talk to Jordan, Brian is still in the kitchen. When she gets out of the car, Jordan drives away. After he is gone, Brian walks outside, sees Angela, and then she walks into the house. As he bends over to pick up her fake ID, Jordan pulls up in front of the house, which is when Brian figures out what has happened. Angela doesn't know that Brian knew Jordan was there until the next episode when she overhears Sharon saying, "Well, that's when they had sex. Her and Jordan? Brian's house. Do you believe it? Right in the front yard. Brian watched the entire thing through a kitchen window."

This brings up another interesting point. I will have to doublecheck, but I thought that Brian's house had a similar floorplan to Angela's, meaning that the kitchen was in the back of the house and the living room was in the front of the house. If this is true, there is no way that Brian could have been watching through the kitchen window.

Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer. You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

Jody Barsch* wrote: After all, Rayanne, Rickie and Angela had a whole long conversation about whether she would go out to his car, and where would Brian have thought she had disppeared to? Also, when she sees him with the ID, doesn't she know he knows?

I think that Rayanne and Rickie probably told Brian that Angela went across the street to her house for a minute when she was actually outside with Jordan. Or maybe he just thought she was in the bathroom

When Brian hands her the ID, I think she just assumes that he found it on the sidewalk where she dropped it. Since Jordan had already driven away, she had no reason to care where Brian thought she had procured it. Since she told Brian earlier that Rayanne and Rickie were coming over to bring her something, maybe she thought Brian would assume that was how she got the fake ID. For all he knew, she already had it and was just carrying it around. If Jordan hadn't come back, there would be no reason for Brian to automatically think the fake ID came from Jordan.

Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer. You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

candygirl wrote:Brian did start the rumor by telling Sharon that Jordan came over (although if you remember in Guns and Gossip, he insists, "I didn't lie to her, I just...What difference does it makes. I can imagine what she did with it.").

I'm not convinced that Brian didn't lie to Sharon. In the lines Candygirl quoted Brian cuts himself off when he starts to deny lying. Then his next line is "But it's just that you lied too." If he's using Angela's lie to justify his own then he must have lied himself. Sharon may have added something to it herself but maybe not. Sharon says in the washroom that though she has trouble accepting it, the rumor must be true because "Brian wouldn't lie". I think Sharon truly believes the rumor. If she were really out to trash Angela's reputation (as much as Angela even has a reputation) then she probably wouldn't have made a point of saying that Angela is just confused but not a slut.

Angela may have thought that Brian knew Jordan was there. I always had the impression that she did and I've never really questioned it before. There isn't anything that explicitly indicates that she did know but nor could I find anything that clearly stated that she didn't know before finding out Brian started the rumour. I like that a lot of MSCL relies on the viewers impressions to fill in parts of the story. Possibly the only reason I assumed Angela thought Brian knew is because in a similar situation I would never believe I had been successfully sneaky. Especially considering that Brian came outside just after JC drove off, in Angela's position I would have been convinced Brian was just waiting for him to leave.

candygirl wrote:This brings up another interesting point. I will have to doublecheck, but I thought that Brian's house had a similar floorplan to Angela's, meaning that the kitchen was in the back of the house and the living room was in the front of the house. If this is true, there is no way that Brian could have been watching through the kitchen window.

Heh, I love it when you talk conspiracy! Can we assume that Brian was a patsy who took the fall for Sharon while she was camped out on the grassy knoll?

I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

grim4746 wrote:I'm not convinced that Brian didn't lie to Sharon. In the lines Candygirl quoted Brian cuts himself off when he starts to deny lying. Then his next line is "But it's just that you lied too." If he's using Angela's lie to justify his own then he must have lied himself. Sharon may have added something to it herself but maybe not. Sharon says in the washroom that though she has trouble accepting it, the rumor must be true because "Brian wouldn't lie". I think Sharon truly believes the rumor. If she were really out to trash Angela's reputation (as much as Angela even has a reputation) then she probably wouldn't have made a point of saying that Angela is just confused but not a slut.

Angela may have thought that Brian knew Jordan was there. I always had the impression that she did and I've never really questioned it before. There isn't anything that explicitly indicates that she did know but nor could I find anything that clearly stated that she didn't know before finding out Brian started the rumour. I like that a lot of MSCL relies on the viewers impressions to fill in parts of the story. Possibly the only reason I assumed Angela thought Brian knew is because in a similar situation I would never believe I had been successfully sneaky. Especially considering that Brian came outside just after JC drove off, in Angela's position I would have been convinced Brian was just waiting for him to leave.

Well put. Very.

I agree that Sharon wouldn't have expanded on what Brian told her, I think Brian lied rather than Sharon. Maybe what happened was there was misunderstanding between them regarding the vernacular Brian used. Like if he said something like, Jordan and Angela "hooked up" he may have meant that they kissed, and Sharon might have taken it as they had sex.

Really though, now that I'm really thinking about all this, the whole rumor thing doesn't really make sense. Whether Brian lied or not, I only see him telling Sharon, and as grim points out, Sharon seems conflicted about talking about Angela in this way. Even though they aren't friends, I don't see Sharon spreading this rumor around, you'd think she'd keep it to herself. In the bathroom scene it seems like Sharon is only talking about it becasue everyone else in school is, not that she's bringing it up herself. After all, in a way she comes to Angela's defense saying that she isn't a slut. I'm going with Brian as the one who claims there was sex, but regardless, it seems unlikely that the rumor would have spread beyond those two, but I guess Sharon must have told a friend who then started the spreading.

And did Brian even see anything? I'm thinking maybe no. After all, he was in the kitchen having the classic "volvometer" conversation with Rickie and Rayanne. And although they don't relish Krakow's company, I highly doubt they would have let him get away with sneaking away to spy on Angela through his front window. It's possible he just put it together after seeing Jordan there and knowing that Angela had been out there for a while. He already suspected that she had a crush on him. I'm really going to go back and look now, because it seems like I remember him being surprised when Jordan drives up, which would mean that he didn't actually see anything.

... Ok, supposing he did see the kisses, would he have been able to see the nature of the kisses -- Jordan lunging and Angela pushing him off? You'd think he'd be concerned about her, not spreading rumors... But then, I guess sometimes we are bitter with people we care about when they make poor decisions in their lives:

Brian: Hey Chase.
Angela: Get out of here, Krakow.
Brian: Um, you're breaking like 14 different laws. You looked better before.
Angela: Like I'm devastated.
Brian: Like I am.
Brian: Oh, look at me, I'm way cool. I'm off with my way cool friends to sniff floor wax.
Brian: That's right, cover that zit.
Angela: Want me to do yours?
Brian: Oh, that hurt.
Brian: Who you waiting for? Catalano? Maybe you're not going anywhere. I mean, maybe you're just a what-do-you-call-it, an exhibitionist.
Angela: I'm going to Let's Bolt.
Brian: Like they're really going to let you into Let's Bolt.
Angela: Quit it!
Brian: You're not stupid, don't act like it. It's a stupid act.
Angela: Everybody's an act. Including you. [gets into car
Brian: So have a really amazing night, okay? I'm gonna throw up now. Have a wonderful time.

Maybe brian is just clueless about sex. I'm thinking of when he told rickie that Kyle was making Sharon beg for her shoe and made it sound kinky when he should have been able to tell from what he witnessed that it wasn't a sex thing at all. Possibly a similar thing happened when he was talking to Sharon about Angela and JC.

I agree, people have a natural, unconscious tendency to "pump up" their gossip. Remember that childhood game where you'd start off with an innoccous message, like "John, run to the store and get milk and onions." and whisper it around a chain of players until you got something like "John scored when he bilked Enron out of millions."

I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

Remember it? That game comes to mind every few days and i reference it constantly. So long as people maintain their ceaseless inability to pass on a message correctly I will remember that game with a mixture of annoyance and humour.

grim4746 wrote:Maybe brian is just clueless about sex. I'm thinking of when he told rickie that Kyle was making Sharon beg for her shoe and made it sound kinky when he should have been able to tell from what he witnessed that it wasn't a sex thing at all. Possibly a similar thing happened when he was talking to Sharon about Angela and JC.

I don't think Brian actually mistook that as something sexual, but rather was trying to put a more interesting twist on what he knew in order to have something to say that was worth listening to ... you know, adding juicy details to get an audience and in a way make yourself seem cooler. Which is probably why he told the story of Angela and Jordan to Sharon. The interesting thing is, when he actually had something juicy to spill (i.e. Jordan and Rayanne), he didn't take pleasure in spreading it around, to Krakow's credit.

Okay, I just checked Dancing in the Dark, and Brian's kitchen is definitely in the back of the house. You can see very clearly when Angela enters his house that there is a darkened living room on her right and the kitchen is straight in the back. When she goes into the living room with Rayanne and Rickie, she looks out the front window at Jordan. There are two windows in the kitchen, but even if Brian did look out the one that is on the side of the house, he wouldn't be able to see Jordan's car since it is parked directly in front of the front door of the house. Wouldn't Sharon know that Brian's kitchen is in the back of the house and deduce that he couldn't have possibly seen them having sex in his front yard from the kitchen window? After all, she, Brian, and Angela have been friends since they were little kids. Heh, maybe the Krakows recently remodeled their house and moved the kitchen to the back.

Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer. You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

Fanwank: elements included in a story or video that references past stories or elements for no other purpose than to please the fans or to give an aura of authenticity that the story itself obviously isn't doing. Also, elements used so often they have become cliched.

I actually meant to use the term retcon (refers to the act of changing previously established details of a fictional setting, often without providing an explanation for the changes within the context of that setting - some forms of retconning do not directly contradict previously established facts, but instead retroactively "fill in" missing background details necessary for current plot points, or reveal new information that radically changes the interpretation of old stories).

[short for 'retroactive continuity', from the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.comics] 1. n. The common situation in pulp fiction (esp. comics or soap operas) where a new story 'reveals' things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the 'facts' the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon. 2. vt. To write such a story about a character or fictitious object. "Byrne has retconned Superman's cape so that it is no longer unbreakable." "Marvelman's old adventures were retconned into synthetic dreams." "Swamp Thing was retconned from a transformed person into a sentient vegetable." "Darth Vader was retconned into Luke Skywalker's father in "The Empire Strikes Back".

I definitely had my geek gloves on!

Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer. You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?