There is a contrast to this anti-libitarian system in the Bible at the end of Judges...

"In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25)

Notice that each man was doing what was right (approved of by his own personal standards). Those familiar with the events of the Book of Judges will realise that Israel at the time made the Wild West seem relatively safe and law abiding!

The question of standards expected of us is one of authority. People claiming Gods authority (e.g. Catholicism) over the centuries have placed rules and restrictions on people that were never God's but just those of religious "elites".

On the other hand, to pretend that it is possible to raise kids with no moral standards usually means you have no real kids of your own. Where "libitarians" come unstuck is that they often appeal to a moral compass they inherit from the God given standards they reject.

Star

On the other hand, to pretend that it is possible to raise kids with no moral standards usually means you have no real kids of your own. Where "librarians" come unstuck is that they often appeal to a moral compass they inherit from the God given standards they reject.

Thit. The majority of secular societies today in the world only know "good" and "bad" because of the laws and standards God has declared for people of the past whether they be Christians and or Muslims.

What a ridiculous statement.....”Freedom” of thought for children. You obviously are not a parent.

Children MUST be taught right from wrong, and expected to obey.

To fail to do so is not freedom, it is neglect, and by not instilling virtues & core values into a growing chld, you are setting them up to be irresponsible, immoral & selfish hedonists when they enter adulthood.

If a parent loves their child they will teach them morals, values & character...things that shape their judgment & allow them to properly discern how to make solid, good decisions in life so they can become productive, healthy, caring adults.

I am not saying a person MUST follow a religion to do so, but there are no moral absolutes without it, and God is NOT the author of confusion.

“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”.....Proverbs 22:6 KJV

Superstar

What a ridiculous statement.....”Freedom” of thought for children. You obviously are not a parent.

Children MUST be taught right from wrong, and expected to obey.

To fail to do so is not freedom, it is neglect, and by not instilling virtues & core values into a growing chld, you are setting them up to be irresponsible, immoral & selfish hedonists when they enter adulthood.

If a parent loves their child they will teach them morals, values & character...things that shape their judgment & allow them to properly discern how to make solid, good decisions in life so they can become productive, healthy, caring adults.

I am not saying a person MUST follow a religion to do so, but there are no moral absolutes without it, and God is NOT the author of confusion.

“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”.....Proverbs 22:6 KJV

Veteran

I wish you all could meet my 10-year-old. He is awesome. Probably the most considerate and polite person I know. Just because he has freedom of thought (oooohhhh so scary) does not mean he does not have structure or is allowed to do whatever he wants at all times. Freedom of thought is a threat to authoritarian structures such as religion. Religion doesn't want children to have freedom of thought because children who are given freedom of thought find humor in religion and are far less likely to ever take it very seriously. Straight truth.

Star

How can a kid possibly understand the complexities and inconsistencies in any major religion? I just fail to see how a developing mind can properly absorb that type of information. Add in the fact that most parents are boneheads despite their faith, and sometimes because of their faith.

Few parents have their doctorate in theology or philosophy. And even the ones who do, don't have the time to actually teach their kids everything. That's like, a shitload of teaching we are talking about here. You know? Just another casual fact the apologists completely ignore. You all give way too much credit to what religion is in theory vs reality.

In reality Religion typically can't do what people say it can do. That's why they blame secularism so often. The truth can't possibly be that any of your religions just aren't good enough to convince everyone. I mean can we say cliche? Yall think the world is going to end anyway! So what's it matter?

Veteran

What a ridiculous statement.....”Freedom” of thought for children. You obviously are not a parent.

Children MUST be taught right from wrong, and expected to obey.

To fail to do so is not freedom, it is neglect, and by not instilling virtues & core values into a growing chld, you are setting them up to be irresponsible, immoral & selfish hedonists when they enter adulthood.

If a parent loves their child they will teach them morals, values & character...things that shape their judgment & allow them to properly discern how to make solid, good decisions in life so they can become productive, healthy, caring adults.

I am not saying a person MUST follow a religion to do so, but there are no moral absolutes without it, and God is NOT the author of confusion.

“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”.....Proverbs 22:6 KJV

I know you don't think it possible to be certain on spiritual matters, and there are certainly people who hold contradictory ideas to be true, but Mathew 10 anticipates this division of opinion...

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Star

kids need to be taught morality. for many, religion is a great framework for this. as they grow older, no parent can force a young adult to stay religious. they can go off in any direction they wish and even become atheist, but the lessons they learned through religion about morality, respect, honor, etc. will stay ingrained in them.
does one NEED to instill religion into a child to teach them morality? no.

as far as your "free thought" term (defined by you as 'thinking outside the box') is concerned, all parents would encourage that and support their childs creativity. free thought does not include moral ambiguity. right and wrong is black and white. you replied with the 'free thought' comment in response to kung fus response about natural sexuality which precipitated the responses. given the inundation of propaganda today, parents need to teach their children morality and right from wrong more than ever.

Superstar

I don't think you guys understand what conversion therapy is. "Gay conversion therapy" isn't even therapy. Electrocuting a gay person while showing them a picture of someone from their same sex isn't therapeutic and it won't get rid of their homosexuality. Traumatizing people should not be labeled as therapy. No one's sexuality can be "converted" in the first place. The idea that you can "convert" gay people is telling them that there is something wrong with themselves and that they cannot be comfortable with who they are. Telling someone that they are literally diseased is not going to improve their mental health. Psychological abuse is not therapy. Teaching people to hate themselves isn't going to help them, it's going to lead to depression... in fact, conversion therapy has been studied and that is exactly what it has been shown to lead to. Shaming an inherent part of a person's identity and personality is certainly going to cause negative psychological effects... especially when this is being done to vulnerable young teens and children. When gay people are forced to go through these kinds of processes, they do not come out in a good mental state and they definitely don't become straight. They end up unable to live with and accept themselves which causes them to have a lack of care for themselves and a very low sense of self worth, this easily leads to depression and suicide. Conversion therapy has been shown to be harmful and it hasn't done any good for anyone, it just makes things worse... it literally creates mental illness (which is the exact opposite of what real therapy is supposed to do). Torture and abuse isn't therapy.

Star

I wish you all could meet my 10-year-old. He is awesome. Probably the most considerate and polite person I know. Just because he has freedom of thought (oooohhhh so scary) does not mean he does not have structure or is allowed to do whatever he wants at all times. Freedom of thought is a threat to authoritarian structures such as religion. Religion doesn't want children to have freedom of thought because children who are given freedom of thought find humor in religion and are far less likely to ever take it very seriously. Straight truth.

That is part of the massive responsibility of being a parent—-being the authority figure to whom your child must answer to.

If your child doesn’t respect your authority, he will never respect authority figures when he’s older and that can potentially ruin his life as an adult, since we continue to answer to authority throughout our lives (police, elders, bosses, etc), and finally, and most importantly, we answer to the ultimate authority....God.

Know this: just because you do not believe in God, that will not exempt you from His judgment. You may find God/religion a humorous mockery now & foolishly teach your child the same, but there WILL come a day when you will grieve to your soul that you did not heed our warnings but then it will be too late.

Veteran

Yes, the "traditional" child-rearing approach has worked out so well for society! Broken, weak-willed adults are easier to manipulate so I guess it works out very well for the people who own the world. Maybe there is something to learn from the past, and MAYBE you are so conditioned that you don't see that what you're arguing is a very limited perspective.

Here is what you're missing, and will most likely continue to be disregarded no matter how obvious it becomes: Obedience only works well for children whose wills can be successfully broken, while the strong-willed kids will always just do whatever they want as soon as the parents aren't watching. On the other hand, my son can be trusted to not misbehave whether anyone is watching or not. He chooses all on his own to make the right actions because it is the example that he follows, and he genuinely wants to be considerate and put others ahead of himself. He's the kid at the birthday party who will just give his cupcake to a friend if there aren't enough for everyone.

He chooses to follow our household structure not because he is told to, but because he has been taught to understand the benefits, which allows him to trust that mom & dad are looking out for the best and will always set a good example to follow.