Anonymous or Miscavige?

Just like clockwork, the day before I head out of town the shenannigans step up. First, the unordered pizza is delivered. Then an unending battery of phone calls to home and cell. There is a distortion filtered voice ominously announcing that I am wrong, that David Miscavige is not the source of the oppression dished out by the church of Scientology. It is L Ron Hubbard. I am to be dealt with because I say otherwise. I am being watched.

No shit, Sherlock! If you are gonna go through the trouble of throw-away phones, voice distorters, hiring some punks to script and execute this stuff, and coordinate it all around felonious mis-use of travel computers, at least tell me something I don’t know, and that I care about.

It sounds very much like an Anonymous prank. But, do they have access to airpline reservation information like we know Miscavige’s “church” does? And thinking over the message, who would be more apt to send that one in particular, Anonymous or Miscavige?

I’d be careful assuming everything is the church. These sound like anon type things to do. After all, who says its a throw-away phone? Anonymous skype numbers are just as easy to get, and a lot of us have and use them for all kinds of things.

My take – It is the church trying to make it look like Anonymous and thinking they’re being oh so very clever by deflecting the blame and creating more 3P between Indies and Anons.
The two groups for sure have a lot of differences and aren’t a match made in heaven but as far as Church corruption goes we’re all on the same side.
PEACE! (that last bit is for any Anon type tenuous allies).

By the way, to clarify, I’m not talking about ALL Anons here (as being on the same side). I’m referring to the ones that I associate with.
There are some ‘Anons’ that I have no liking or respect for. But then to be honest, the same can be said for a small faction of the ‘Indie’ group.
I guess what I’m saying overall is when we refer to any group as an entity we have to separate the heads from the head lice 😀

If this were the work of Anon it would be random. Only the church has a vested interest in keeping you under self-imposed house arrest and trying to step up the heat when you are leaving and therefore potentially up to no good (ha ha did I REALLY say ‘potentially?’) What would Anon care about your travel schedule and stepping up attacks when you are going out of town?

Based on that logic alone I would put hard money on this being the futile attempts of a mad dog, micromanaging a futile attempt to piss into a Cat 5 hurricane. Guess what happens when someone attempts to piss into the wind 🙂

(Pardon my unladylike language but it communicates exactly the concept I wanted to get accross).

Sam, I have to agree with you here. DM and company are afraid of Marty and what he may do next. Nothing makes more sense than OSA trying to make it look like anonymous in an attempt to make enemies of Indies and anonymous. I can’t imagine anonymous being afraid of Indies. Why would they?

Heather, proof may nevere come. But investigators always look to motive. And the motive is not with anonymous for this type of orchestrated effort. It serves no purpose for them. In fact, it would be as cross purpose since both parties are attempting to stop the abuses.

Well, Marty said one time that someone in anon told him that he was more of a threat to the success of their objective of destroying Scientology than DM or the Church itself was. They have extreme venom against anything Scientological.

Could be a renegade anon or renegade Churchite or several layer deep GO/OSA op with lots of cutout men to obfuscate the source.

Could be a non-anon, non-Churchite sole renegade whacko who gets a kick out of reading about his antics.

Could be one of the low-life PIs who was booted off the case and just plain likes to mess with people.

Heather:
Let’s ask this question:
“Who do YOU really think it could be?
Do you have an overabundance of enemies?
There are kooks in every profession, in every activity, in every social club.
Anonymous? I have heard and I have read they are quite the outspoken ones when it comes to the Church of Scientology. I have even seen them in person in action in New York City and spoken to some of them. I give them credit, except for the time that one of them covered himself with vaseline and then pubic hairs and barged into a Church of Scientology on West 46th Street touching all the items in the lobby. For which he was arrested. Is that really “Moving On Up A Little Higher”?

And then there are “true critics” of the Church of Scientology, one of whom was later discovered to be making up allegations about the church with which to sue them with so as not to “lose face” with the “true critics” because in actual fact she did not have any to report.

Then someone comes along and says “I came home from work and my front door was missing! Was it OSA? Was it DM? Was it Anonymous?”

And then naturally “the people” step in with their “saving the day” grace and advise “Oooooooh! You better call the police” or “Get in touch with the FBI!” or “Move!”

That is why when I am speaking with intelligent individuals whom I respect I do not have to be told not to burst out with hysterical news.

The same people that talk about me probably talk about you too!

So, anyway, you know what, David Miscavige reminds me of a young Frank Sinatra. When do you suppose he might start crooning for us at an upcoming ISA event? With his hair fixed so pretty like that? His hairstyle ought to be called “Sea Org Dream Whip”.

Or Heather, maybe DM can go and tap dance in front of Tom Cruise and that might help him to get the big break he is looking for in Hollywood.

“The criminal penalty for stalking is imprisonment up to a year and/or a fine of up to $1,000. There are more severe penalties when the stalker pursues the same person in violation of a court restraining order, with a sentencing range of two to four years imprisonment.”

It is more than musings… It is entheta… Know Marty that while you suffer (or buffer) such shennanigans, there are hundreds, yeah thousands, who stand at your back while this crap flows on. Truth is permanent, lies fade…

It’s clear that, as Fascism and Communism are next to one another on a circular continuum, DM & Co. and the Anonymous/Hater crowd are close, even incestuous, cousins. It wouldn’t surprise me if OSA has hired Anonymous people to cover their dirty tracks. They think it is going to work. They don’t realize it will NEVER work. John Sweeney’s BBC piece is out next week and that is the next hurricane on the horizon and here’s to a Category 5 piece.

My reading of the various internet sources indicates that there IS an anti chanology backlash in the larger “anonymous” culture. Some of the more random members feel that they dont want to be in that “personal army”. One of the cultural characteristics of anon is the love of creating chaos or drama, with out any rational reason. Trolling. Its like art, creation for its own sake, albeit black art. They do it to themselves as well as to others.

Its funny to see “anonymous” lumped together as if it has some common goal. Surely a majority of its “members” are anti scientology, but I would speculate that for most, being part of something is more important than what that something is.

Scientology is a easy target for them because it has marginal respect in society at large, and is easy to ridicule.

Would their efforts be better directed against the war in Afganistan, or the economic fiasco? Would that be any fun?

I agree that anonymous is a perfect opterm for Miscavige, and more a reactively created and functioning entity than a sane one. Anon feeds off of anything the church does in reaction to it. Miscavige has a bogeyman. I expect neither to do what really makes sense. Although anon is the one having more fun, and thus perhaps a bit higher on the tone scale.

My guess is OSA has been bypassed by DM’s direct control of PI’s and other such folk, and these are the culprit in question.

That sounds naive – you really think this group of anons are ALL knowing, willing cause points?????? or is it possible that the pay is better than at McDonald’s…you don’t think that OSA is capable of feretting out the kids and getting willing participants in this cloak and dagger, smoke and mirrors bs that OSA does “in the name of saving nations…” Fact – OSA hacked and recorded anon sites for review and then pursued exposing them to their parents with scary letters to the parents with legal letter head. Then when these kids’ parents were like “HAROLD, COME OUT HERE RIGHT NOW” and they came out of the gaming caves and into the living room to be asked “IS THIS TRUE? DID YOU REALLY CALL IN A BOMB THREAT???!!!!” or some such activity with all the bells and whistles of home visits to the outed anons as they protested and their identities were captured….anyway the point is that these anons are just as buyable or bribable so to be used as an “asset” as any troll is who is lying and duping or betraying others “for the greater good”…

It seems a bit silly to me to debate whether it was Miscavige or double-agent Anons because we don’t have enough data – that being said – it feels like OSA to me…

With all do respect Joe,
I don’t believe for a moment that anyone in anonymous would or could be hired by DM & Co. If by chance there was a plant within anonymous, I think it would be found out by others very quickly and that person would be displayed very prominently in a very shameful manner. I would hope that you at least look at anonymous protesting and what they are doing because of the crimes that this organization is committing. For instance, and personally, If anyone tried to mess with me and my kids and family, I’m not sure what or how I would deal with such a horrific matter. This sort of behaviour is beyond anything that I could even comprehend.
I don’t believe either that Anonymous are cousins with this cult behaviour. These are happy/angry young people reaching out to shut down the abuses of what this church is, and many of them lived it.
And yes, every person on WWP is feeling the same way as you about John Sweeney’s report, they too feel a category 5 hurricane coming on, because they get excited just as you do about the truth being revealed.

Joy, the anons I’ve spoken with, granted it was awhile ago, do not even know who the other anons are at their protests. Talking to some guys at a protest one day here in Mountain View, they didn’t know who the other people were at the protest out of concern that there might be an OSA plant there. Whatever. In any event, Mountain View Org has closed down their bookstore on Castro St., the main drag in town, thereby cutting off any foot traffic into Scientology. They are directing people to the main org, situated between a freeway on ramp and a building materials company. Straight up and vertical, indeed.

Hi Joe! Too bad about the bookstore. That was a really big deal to get it fixed up the way it was. I miss downtown Mountain View, especially the Chinese grocery. Any news about the new Idle Org in the high-tech industrial park? Even the poorest staff members and public paid dearly for that. I know because they posted everybody’s contributions the day after the big begging event, Feb 2008. Anyway, I’m sure the new building will attract lots of engineers — you know, the ones who never use the Internet and are impressed with posh MEST and don’t ask hard questions.

With all do respect Joe,
I don’t believe for a moment that anyone in anonymous would or could be hired by DM & Co.”

Is it possible? Yes. Afterall, a**holes in Co$ management hired spies to infiltrate David Mayo’s AAC in Santa Barbara when he was being so successful revitalizing the field back in the early ’80s. Jerks from int will stop at NOTHING in pursuit of their own fanatic zealotry.

Is it likely? Not at all. Most importantly because the people who involve themselves with anon are volunteers who genuinely are seeking to end the abuses of the church of scientology as they understand them. They often don’t fully understand scientology, no surprises there. Upon exchanging views with various freezoners around the world and actually coming to understand something of the reality of the subject, anons have often found a new regard for the subject of scientology while nonetheless maintaining their customary disdain for the Co$ and Sea Org. Can’t fault them there. 😉

Still, Anonymous is a decentralized phenomenon. It has no “command central” to be infiltrated. Thus, any attempts at bribery by OSA are simply throwing money away needlessly, something for which they are known, but not much cause for concern. Little useful intelligence can be gained through attempts at infiltration. The best they can hope to do is attempt to discredit individual anons and by extension the movement generally.

“It’s clear that, as Fascism and Communism are next to one another on a circular continuum.” ->You are Godwinning and staging up for sliming the Area here.
“DM & Co. and the Anonymous/Hater crowd are close, even incestuous, cousins.” ->Eeeeewwwwwwww. DM is one. Anon is Many. And get your mind out of the….

Marty wrote “The question really amounts to casual musing since, no matter who they are, they are attempting to divert a hurricane with spit wads.”
Truth, perfectly stated.
Sorry you have to deal with the Dev T from the very stupid whoevers.

Can this munchkin rest for 5 minutes? Loved your statement Marty, “they are attempting to divert a hurricane with spit wads.” You are a great writer and one I have learned much from, with your “just right” attitude.

The end is near for “the Pretender”, for sure. Here come the kicks and screams…and then one day soon, he will vanish, hopefully without a dime, after all the lawsuits have hit.

Just for the record, Dr. Dave, when you break the law in the US, you are subject to prosecution for any and all criminal and civil laws that you have transgressed. In other words, you are in deep shit! [Sorry guys, had to get graphic.]

OSA pretending to be Annonymous , actually its too funny when you think about it. Maybe I’m ignorant. Maybe Annon is pissed because this blog is so popular and we don’t bash LRH so they have a ARCX . Now they can’t use you as a Star of the Show and perhaps your taking their audience. Too crazy and not worth your time, but I guess its like having a mosquite bite…itchy.
and bothersome but hardly fatal.

Jewel,
When I worked for the GO in B1 (spy network) full time briefly in the early 70’s a lot of the campaigns they ran were always of a nature to make it seem like it was coming from some source other than themselves, whether they were attacking or discrediting someone or writing letters to politicians or committees or the media or spying on someone. They used assumed names and handled all letters with rubber gloves to make sure there were no fingerprints. They were real big on sending undercover spies in to gather ‘intelligence’ and then using another separate team to carry out their various acts.

Supposedly, when the GO was disbanded and OSA took over that part of the org board, they “no longer” engage in that type of stuff. I think that’s a lie, even though I have no evidence of that, but I can still see their mindset, using secret plans, several layers of ‘cut-out’ men, people they get to do their bidding for them who don’t even know who’s really directing it and so it cannot be traced back to them. Sort of like a CIA within the CIA and maybe even a secret club as an additional layer. I caught a glimpse of a hell of a cloak and dagger outfit.

They’re just so dead set determined on their goal of doing whatever they can to eliminate their ‘enemies’ and carrying out their objectives, which is essentially, what? Their objective really, is to infiltrate and control every aspect of government, finance, religion, mental health, all people, all events, and…everything. It’s the only possible way they can achieve the Aims of Scientology. If it’s a “World without war, without insanity, without criminals, where the able can prosper and an honest being has rights” the only way they can do this is to actually control the entire world and be in charge of everything, using their ‘correct technology’ of Scientology ethics and justice. That’s the actual mission of the Sea Org, isn’t it? To get ethics in on the planet. On a third and fourth dynamic basis, “hammering out of existence incorrect technology” would have to mean converting the world over to SCN ethics and justice. It won’t work for them otherwise.

They see this Marty thing only as a minor barrier to get out of the way so the road is smoother on their journey to their 4th dynamic nirvana. Then, after they’ve eliminated everyone who stands in their way, they will continue to try and capitalize on every world disaster and deteriorating condition with their promises and dissemination to the ‘upstats’ (money) who are the ‘able’ they should really be paying attention to anyway. The rest of the people are essentially insignificant, if they can’t recruit them or bleed them for dough. Like grass growing in a field or some trees in a forest.

They’ve eliminated by hook or crook every single one of their enemies as an enemy, by whatever means possible or necessary: FBI, Interpol (now they USE interpol) the IRS (now they report every detail to the IRS about their parishioners), Paulette Cooper, Kristophsen, Wollershiem, Mayo, Minton, Broeker, Aznirans, MacPherson, Youngs, Nibs, ARS, Mary Sue, Headleys, etc., etc., etc., etc.

But they think all this is the greatest good, don’t they? They consider that every single man, woman and child on this planet is doomed unless they succeed in their Aims.

The one thing they’ve not been able to obliterate as a barrier, is this independent Scientologist thing. Usually, when Scientologists go independent, they get drunk with freedom and ego and go squirrel and get all tangled up in crazy stuff. But here, I think there’s a chance that as long as the individual practitioners stay true, they have a chance. There’s no way they can obliterate it. Ha ha ha ha. All they can do is to harass, and try to entrap and try to Black PR.

I don’t happen to think they are involved in these juvenile pizza delivery farces, but I’m sure they are glad it’s happening. I think it’s a renegade anon who relishes the braggin’ rights to having done so.

Yes, that’s true, but the C of S creates that barrier themselves through their own self-generated bad publicity while at the same time thinking they are removing it. It’s a blindness stemming from arrogant fanaticism, I think. He who thinks he already knows something quite often is incapable of learning that there is something to learn.

If any of the alterations or eliminations of the books, tapes and bulletins were from instructions from LRH, DM was obligated to provide written proof that this was so. Otherwise, he had no right to change one word.

Interesting. I was of the impression that most of those who would use those tactics long ago abandoned chanology and the protests against Scientology because they got bored with the whole subject.
I can say with good conscience I know of no such plan for action against you; but that does not count for much the way anon is organized, because we truly are without leaders. It could have been any anon cell. Or yes, it could have well been the cult.
I imagine the OSA goons are not too happy that there even are some anons that are communicating here and that don’t hate the guts out of Marty Rathbun or the other independents.
If you have questions, maybe now or in the future, the email address I have been using in these posts is valid.

It is probably an academic question, since Anonymous and Miscavige depend upon one another for their very existences

Maybe that part of anon that is active against organised Scientology depends on Miscavige (which is debatable from my PoV). But the majority of anons has long ceased any activity related to Scientology, if they once were active at all. Thus, your statement as it stands, is false.

“Maybe that part of anon that is active against organised Scientology depends on Miscavige (which is debatable from my PoV). But the majority of anons has long ceased any activity related to Scientology, if they once were active at all. Thus, your statement as it stands, is false.”

There is no way in the world that was an anon. Sorry, it just was an incredibly lame attempt at impersonation. And I do mean lame. Here’s my evidence. Back in September 2008, there was a protest at PAC in LA. At some point two obviously fake protestors showed up with masks and signs…and these two idiots stuck out like sore thumbs. It was immediately obvious to everyone that they had been sent to infiltrate and look like asses…which they did. Their signs even had swastikas, which was stupid. The wording on the signs (“We do it for teh lulz”, oh please!), the pictures (beautifully printed on identical boards), their demeanor (wouldn’t talk, couldn’t answer simple questions), and just the way the looked and acted made it obvious to everyone what they were doing. People immediately surounded these two idiots and covered up their signs, and gave them a lot of grief. Eventually they took off, and some people followed them, and watched them go inside org.

Another thing is there’s no humor, irony, or anything. Trust me, it would be way more likely to be the subject of some pretty clever photoshops of yourself than to have some dumb calls to your cell phone. But that would be way beyond DM’s abilities to immitate, so he sends his goons to do this lame impersonation. FAIL.

Here is one of the idiots:

Here are people covering their signs:

Susan

PS. DM used to try something different at every protest. Sometimes it was sprinklers, loud noise (did you ever hear about the speakers he installed at Gold to drive away protestors?), smelly substances, handlers with anti-Anonymous fliers, handlers following protesters to their cars, handlers with cameras, handlers with signs containing pictures of the protesters and their addresses on them, etc etc. And yet, here it is going on month 33 of continuous global protests….

There is something wrong with your RSS feed on this blog. The feed for the comments is fine, but the one for the general entries is not working. I was sitting here like a dunce since the 15th not knowing that there were many more articles to read. Man, I am wayyyy behind now.

You might have to put in a support ticket to the blog people. I am not sure. The RSS feeds are a great way to know of updates.

Ok, now I am off to read all the articles and posts since the 15th. :O

Hey Joe,
I prefer also to watch it being made, how it’s cooked and then eyeball it all the way to the table. So I don’t get too many deliveries. Paranoid Pizza Psychosis? Ha ha ha! Nah, just snooty, pizza-diva-aficionado-critic-fanatic! I can smell an oak-wood burning brick oven fire from a mile and a half away!

I agree. There’s been videos posted on youtube that try to look like Anon but obviously isn’t. Part of OSA’s current job is to malign Anon in any way possible. In my observations on WWP, I haven’t seen any evidence of anyone saying that Mr. Rathbun should be harrassed by telephone or that pranking him would do any good.

Anonymous protesters are protesting NOT because of what people think. They protest the crimes & lies of the Cult of Scientology. For example Operation Freakout, Operation Snowwhite, Family Disconnection, Beatings by DM, harassment against journalist, harassment against critics of cults, etc. They protest Scientology abuses. The Independent Scientology movement is completely opposed to those abuses. This harassment is definitely not “Anonymous”. This is the Cult of Scientology. Monitoring your flights data is a dead give away.

It is Miscavige who is shooting the spit wads.

Thank you for exposing his tactics. And thank you for waking me up out of the coolaid haze I was in when a part of this cult.

Since you seem to me to appreciate scholarly work, perhaps you and some other scholarly individuals here may find this book quite interesting if you haven’t already read it. I just bought it and will give my review and express any enlightenment when I’m finished reading it.

“Wink argues that humans live under “domination systems”–the “powers and principalities that be.” These are the structural and ideological institutions that manipulate our minds, lives, and activities, reduce our freedom, and retard our flourishing. As Christians, we’re called to resist them without buying into the “myth of redemptive violence”–the centuries’ old chestnut that violence is the only kind of force that works, and that because it works it justifies itself. Jesus showed an alternative way–the path of nonviolent resistance.

In examining nonviolent resistance, Wink is masterful. He persuasively destroys the stereotype of nonviolence as a turn-the-other-cheek passivity by exploring what Jesus really meant when he advocated cheek-turning or walking the second mile.”

(Of course, the Church of Scientology is proudly a “not a turn-the-other-cheek-religion”, and reflects that with their clear non-understanding of nonviolent communication.)

May I chime in for a moment, I don’t post often here but I read this blog often.
I really don’t think this is the works of Anonymous. This is likely an OSA DM plant made to make you feel like anons are a part of this. It appears the little arse likes to play around this way. To be able to obtain flight information specifically, and on certain people that have left the church, seems like an OSA privilege that they seem to have. Sounds like a DM mafia like practice to me. Afterall, the cult has done this too many people, Larry Brennan for instance, Mark Headley, Ursula Caberta, Mike Rinder, Marty Rathbun, Amy Scobee, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on and on. It seems to have been proven that these mafia type cameramen and followers at airports, etc. are in fact people connected to the church of scientology. This is not the works of Anonymous. With saying that, yes, people protesting the church(anons) aren’t real happy with Marty, or Mike because they don’t feel the truth has been told, but there is also an amount of people that feel that what you are doing Marty is beneficial to bringing forth the lies of this church and its mafia behaviour, namely Miscavige.
I really don’t think anons would go out of their way to try to pull this off. I think these OSA robots are trying to trick you into thinking that this is the works of anonymous. The OSA bots watch WWP just as much as they are watching this blog. It seems they are taking on an ‘acting’ role over the internet.

Harassing Telephone Calls in Interstate Communications. This statute makes it a federal crime to use a telephone or other telecommunications device to annoy, abuse, harass, or threaten another person at the called number. (47 U.S.C. Section 223(a)(1)(C))

Interstate Stalking (1996; 2000). Section 2261A(1) makes it a federal crime to travel across state, tribal or international lines to stalk another person with ” the intent to kill, injure, harass, or place under surveillance with intent to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate another person.” Furthermore, the travel must result in reasonable fear of death, serious bodily injury or substantial emotional distress either to a victim or a victim’s family member, spouse or intimate partner. Section 2261A(2) makes it a federal crime to stalk another person across state, tribal or international lines, using regular mail, email, or the Internet. The stalker must have the intent to kill, injure, harass, intimidate or cause substantial emotional distress, or to place a victim or a victim’s family member, spouse or intimate partner in fear of death or serious bodily injury. (18 U.S.C. Section 2261A)

It’s probably gonna get even worse soon, Marty.
But I am sure you kind of expected that. It’s a big game.
The good news – you, people, Internet will keep you safe, I believe.
As long as you keep speaking the truth, no matter how ugly or even self-endangering. About past, present and future. Even if it includes you.
No one is perfect. But only few are brave enough to reveal their mistakes in public, when it serves the cause. You are making history right now.
Best, Stat.

There is no way this is the work of an Anon. If it is, it’s a newish member that is a complete amateur and bringing disrepute to the Anon name.

And please know that though the existence of Anonymous is in part due to Slappy Miscavige, it’s future existence is in no way dependent on him. Anonymous want justice and that involves a dissolving of current church management. That’s it. After that Anonymous will find other injustices to rectify, just as they did in other guises before the Church of Scientology came along and picked this fight. Remember this is still just retaliation for them trying to censor free speech and the Internet 🙂

Despicable actions, whoever carried them out. To me, it stinks of Church dirty tricks.

“Anonymous” unfortunately, is a bit of a generality. It includes anyone who does anything anonymously, and than can include OSA, prank hackers, terrorists, whoever. If you don’t know their identity, they are “Anonymous.”

My only experience with so-called “Anonymous” was meeting some of them at several demonstrations I went to outside of the Portland Org. The people I met were good people, and in fact, when one of their co-demonstrators stepped out of line, blocking the org entrance and harassing people coming out, he was quickly brought into line by the others and told to knock it off. I had the chance to talk to a few of them, and found them to be genuinely concerned about abuses within the Church. Most of the “Anonymous” I met differentiated between the abusive Church leaders and the regular members, between the cult-like organization and the individual practice of the subject. They were, most of them, not dummies and not evil. Those I met were responsible professional people whose motivation was to stop abuse in the Church. It was some of these “Anonymous” in fact who very competently organized the LA press conference and got most of the major LA media there. They would no more work with OSA than jump off a cliff.

Sure, there are bad eggs in any group – particularly in a group where everyone is anonymous! Anyone can literally do anything and claim that they are “Anonymous.” And some of the so-called Anonymous pranks, particularly early on, were just wrong. But the Church has used these few incidents to create a boogeyman – Anonymous!!! – to scare Scientologists into donating more and more money to fight this “HUGE, well-funded, highly organized terrorist organization” – funded, they claim, by the “Psychs” and “Eli Lilly.” They have blown up a few malicious pranks into “thousands of terrorist death threats.” It’s ridiculous. It’s a fiction, a boogeyman to control Scientologists with fear and get their money.

You can’t take the actions of an extremist few and use that to smear an entire group. Don’t you object when people try to smear the entirety of Scientology because of DM’s actions? Well, don’t do the same thing to others.

You have more allies than you realize out in the general public. People who ARE concerned about the abuse.

I speak as someone who has actually met and talked with some of the people behind those masks. Of course I don’t condone everything done by people claiming to be “Anonymous” – how could I? I’d have to condone anything done anonymously!

Is OSA capable of carrying out “dirty tricks” and then claiming to be “Anonymous”? Of course they are.

For some background on Anonymous and how it came about, read the Wikipedia article on it, which is actually pretty good.

Smear? They announced themselves as “Anonymous” along with the same distortion/ominous warnings and Miscavige-like foul language. WWP reads like a Miscavige lecture. That’s why I leave it to you all to judge for yourselves.

I’m my experience, there is some truth to LRH’s placement of gays on the chart human evaluation in SOS.
A lot of the real DB greasy, mean, antago Anons are gay.
You have to take people on a one at a time basis as individuals, but I just think there’s some truth to it.
I’m sorry to offend as I obviously will, but thats my opinion.

It doesn’t matter if they announced themselves as Anon. Since when is DM known to be truthful? They could say they’re the Pope for all anyone cares.
Don’t let them divert your attention. That’s what the dwarf is trying to do.

Well, anons are kinda hard to insult, given the language we use even between us.

wwp=miscavige-lecture is a bit of a brazeness though and not particulary true. Despite what Marty wrote somewhere else in the comments there are indeed threads on wwp which show a fair amount of “uptone” “moralfaggotry” and even, godforbid, passionate and soulful threads where exes and escapees post their experience and/or gratitude to the anons.
I don’t know the man in person but from what I have heard the dwarf rather seldom lectures about anything too emotional.
We Anons and DM at times might share the liking for being foulmouthed. We do it for fun and as a code of language, if you will. Tiny Dave is foulmouthed because he can’t help it and needs to make people smaller than himself (does that expression work in English at all? “to make someone smaller” or should it be belittling?). If you put form over content, this doesn’t matter, I prefer content over form.

Also I find it a bit unlikeable to pose the question “Anonymous or Miscavige” to “judge for yourself” when Marty pretty well knows who’s bothering him. Doing this is just pouring oil into the fire and well, he got the product. I am asking myself why that was wanted, but well, have it your way, Marty.

So, that’s why I used the term.

On the good side…
From a “wog” perspective the comments/discussion on this blog entry were probably the best so far on this blog in respect to culture of discussion. If you go back to the first few blog entries a pretty interesting evolution can be observed.
I usually don’t post here anymore because my views on the tech and LRH are unwanted here and reading through all the lots of mutual acknowleding you folks seem to need for your comm cycles is sometimes too timeconsuming as well. But on this particular occasion I rather enjoyed myself alt-f5-ing here, because of , of course, the topic but also the discussion was good.
Then yesterday something strange happened.
A prominent poster over here wrote how much he enjoyed the discussion, even with the anons, the controversial views, everything, the whole “melange” and other posters supported that view. Also this was a person who I’d least expected a statement like that to come from (and who I usually think is the biggest fool around, you know who you are ;P ). I did a small comment, less friendly than I virtually felt at that particular moment, and some shots were fired, all fine.

Nevertheless, the statement bothered me a bit before falling asleep, or better said got me thinking.
How does this person or better these persons usually feel/think about discussing when they “take a win” in being able to enjoy a controversial discussion with people not sharing their viewpoint, something I just take for granted.
And all of a sudden I was direly reminded that you folks have for a long time been in an environment that does not condone free exchange of views and where contradicting oppinions within the group are not taken lightly, the “Church of Scientology”-Corral. It probably takes an individual a long time to rid himself of those mental chains of habit and conditioning, one might not even be aware that they are still there.
Then: the clash with the outside world after the getting rid of the church. And to make things even more complicated it’s not just the normal outside world with what even as churchie you can live alongside with, but the Anons.
So one group who needs time and patience to recover from severe conditions meets with a group whose members usually got the attention span of a lizard’s blink and have an offensive language code. Whatever god set that up has to have a mean sense of humour.
Apart from the views on the tech and if it’s valuable or not, it thus might be that a lot of the discord and mutual disdain derive from the fact that the Anons and oldtime critics just expect too much too soon from the Indies.

I don’t know what we can do, I’ll just try to remind myself over and over again that patience is needed and that many of you guys are stil in the process of freeing yourselves from the mental slavery of the church.

You actually have no idea how much affection I have for you. Well, I guess you do after reading that.

I love that you actually like to communicate and that you persist so hard in communicating here. I love that you care to communicate with people whose models are not the ones you use. Whether you want to understand your opponents or whether you just enjoy the interesting intercultural aspects of these conversations — either way, I appreciate and enjoy the conversation with you, too.

I like that you have good manners — well, usually (me too). I admire your lovely English skills, since you’re not a native English speaker. It does not bother me one whit that you will never experience Scientology like ‘we’ do, although it does surprise me that you think ‘we all’ are alike in how we experience Scientology.

But surely, you realize that we aren’t all alike in most respects — don’t you? After all, why should we? Just because I grew up in X, was raised in Y religion, went to college, have fair skin, am a woman, am an American and voted for Z in the last Presidential election doesn’t mean I … (you can fill in the blank if you’d like, since I don’t want to). Most of those attributes I just mentioned could be as potentially confusing to someone as the fact that I am still in good standing at the Church of Scientology — although I probably wouldn’t be if I bothered to go down and tell them what I think of them.

I realize that’s a hard concept to inspect — that Scientologists aren’t all the same, especially when so much of your experience with Scientology has been the ‘all right’ or ‘all wrong’ crowd (on both sides) or filtered through other communications.

But please understand that’s how some of ‘us’ feel, too. It’s irritating to be mistaken for someone you’re standing next to, isn’t it? Felt that much here before? Well, me too.

Debate — it’s not something everyone likes. Hell, most people don’t even enjoy hearing others describe as positive what they themselves have found to be negative. It’s emotionally upsetting. It’s not something everyone is good at. And it’s not just Scientologists or ex-Scientologists. You should come to Thanksgiving dinner at my house some year!

One of the problems with debate or even a conversation between people who hold different beliefs is that there are different sets of rules about how to listen and talk to each other. I happen to like the set of rules that includes some basic mutual assumptions about everyone’s good intentions, intelligence and willingness to look. Most forums don’t encourage those conversations. There’s too much: You’re wrong, I’m right! I’m yelling louder now! I can’t hear you!

So I hope you keep chiming in here, Krautfag. I hope you won’t assume what shouldn’t be assumed.

And for the record, I think Scientology is just a collection of models, like all other belief / value / behavioral models. The whole thing and its bits and pieces are only as good as they work. If they do work for you, fine. If all of it or its bits and pieces don’t work for you, fine. Outside the Church of Scientology, you don’t have to ‘believe or get shot.’ You just decide what you want to do.

Just Me

P.S. I agree with you that Scientologists do a lot of acknowledging and high-fiving, but it’s a long-time habit. C’mere and gimme a hug!

And no, I don’t see “the scientologist”, whether still in or out”, as a stereotype. Each individual is unique in detail and has a singular way of how he got to where he is at the moment. But it’s terribly hard to adress in a blogpost, so of course, what do you do for the sake of briefness and readability, you resort to a generality 🙂

If we could seee DMs score card on this whole scenerio, Mike and Marty would almost certainly be public enemy # 1, because of their personal experience, capability, knowledge, and experience compounded by their unswayable ingetrity … they can’t be bought off, key independants helping them migrate to the top of the list.
Anynymous would unquestionably be public enemy # 2, though when they first came up may have held thetop spot. Perhaps some of the original anonymous people (from 4chan) just in the game for lulz, many drifted away over time, while with the evolution of project chanology, those with a genuine desire to give a voice to the operessed of scientology and prevent human rights abuses have come into their own. They are a real threat to the PR image of the church, to the secret culture, to the “stop think” culture and are motivated by soemthing the church can’t understand or stop.
It seems the free zoners may be becoming less of a current priority target. This may be because intelligence and other resources are now streatched impossibly thin because of the massive network being built by the independants, or perhaps because they may be serving a role as defined in simon boulevard, if you don’t give people a game, the game becomes getting you. Someone in the DM camp may actually be smart enough to realize that if the church let people freely practice scientology as they desire, they would have less interest in fighting, at some time DMs church has to realized they screwed the pooch, the toothpaste is out of the tube and there is no getting it back in.

Anyone who has studied the tactics of the church in handling such matters realizes that the church is absolutely sending infiltrators (plants) into all groups. With blind and double blind agents, even controllers, people with exeperience can create agents and operatives who don;’t know who they are being guided by, or reproting information to. This can be the most upsetting aspect of a free communication style group as is forming here.

Friend,
Good points. And when you look at some of the comments on this blog today it’s pretty obvious they’re hard at work.

Bottom line: DM doesn’t create any positive effects. It’s all negative. From the out tech producing lousy products to his yes-men stalking people in the field & harassing others…….it’s all entheta. He’s descended to a point where that’s all he can produce: entheta. Anything that man touches turns to sh*t.

There are many LAYERS of the onion in Anonymous.
The core groups within are perfectly happy to be wildly underestimated
as a group and what they are working to achieve., while people read the Church’s propaganda of “college kids” being paid $50 a day by Pharmaceutical Companies to demonstrate.

THE APPARENCY is a bunch of vulgar kids beating off at their keyboard spouting venom. This is one layer, one outer layer of the onion.

That DM’s cult assumes Anonymous is a terrorist organization of a bunch of masked college kids is a delight to the deeper unknown parts of Anonymous which include a huge bunch of lawyers, ex Scientologists, Catholics against Abortion and a couple of other groups I will not mention here.

Jeff is correct, it has become a fund raising issue for DM. I am personally aware of a Ten Million dollar check that was handed DM to fight ANONYMOUS not so long ago.

ABUSE within the cult is what keeps ANONYMOUS alive and well and perpetuating.
The costume characters are a misdirector.
Still waters can run deep.

@DFB:
Anonymous is like any other group of people out there who are loosely bound by some common ideal – just a bunch of folks. There’s no formal organisation, no real leader.

But there are opinion leaders. Some people just naturally rise to a position where others listen to them and pay attention, and Anonymous is no different. This loose group has been around a while, it hasn’t drifted off into the latest falvour of the week to any degree. So it stands to reason that there’s at least one in-PT intelligent person keeping the fight against CoS alive.

Anons are just people, there’s no reason to assume they wouldn’t interact amongst themselves pretty much people do all over the world. Just a loose collection of dudes who happen to do stuff on any given day? No, I don’t think so.

More like a few people with smarts upstairs are being causative and making things happen. Anonymously.

You are incorrect once again, Mike. Anonymous most certainly does not depend on Miscavige for its existence. You realy must consider stopping flogging that dead horse. Although I am quite certain your ardent Scientologist supporters will swallow that kind of stuff hook, line, and sinker, the informed general public will not. Scientology criminals (such as yourself), human rights abuse, criminality, the suppression of free speech, disconnection, and the following to the letter, of many of Hubbard’s very own policies are the reasons that groups such as Anonymous exist.

Yes, Miscavige and his cronies are (IMHO) criminals, and Dave has implemented quite a few subversive and abusive policies of his own, but he is only a pale imitation of Hubbard. I’m pretty damn sure I don’t need to lecture you on Hubbard’s (many) abusive policies and actions. The difference is though, you’re too scared to admit them in public. No confront you see. You don’t want to slaughter that particular cash cow, do you? Scientology is in the pitiful state it is because this is the eventual EP of following Hubbard tech. Removing Miscavige and his criminal cohorts will not solve Scientology’s problems. Rapid extinction is built into Hubbard tech by virtue of it being evil and worthless.

Mike, the point Marty was making is that Anonymous is fueled by Miscavige as abuses continute to occur. If the abuses stopped, Anonymous would lilely find another cause. In that sense there is a dependence. Your reading into it an absolute which I doubt was intended by the author.

When and how and by who abuses started have been thoroughly aired in posts on this blog. Scientology and its leaders were not ever perfect. No one here says they were. Just like your not. But your negation of the efficacy of any scientology material shows you lack an understanding fo the material. And your statement that Miscavige is only a pale imitation of Hubbard proves to me you have no understanding of these matters, their genesis or application today.
To arrive at your current frame of mind, you have had to block out a lot of data. I am not involved with scientology so I can, from an exterior view, and without prejudice say your statements do not ring true. You can make yourself believe anything and i think that is what you did. Whatever personal axe you have to grind has robbed you of objectivity and proper analysis.

NOOO this blog it the onley reason for my existance ;). On other causes will the Indies fight with Anonymous for a free Internet 😉 ACTA is looming censorship. And they use Strawman arguments to implement it.http://www.youtube.com/user/InsurgencyMedia

WE?
I really have no idea who you are talking about there but it certainly does not include me.
I am here because I feel that this venue is an open door to the creation of a grassroots movement that I feel will actually carry out LRHs purpose in writing KSW #1. I want the tech and Scientology and Dianetics to be preserved and disseminated and made available for USE by anyone who chooses to avail themselves of it. Stopping the abuses of David Miscavage and some others within the current Church of Scientology is something that I feel is a correct action, because I care that Scientology has been “shanghaied” by Miscavage for his own or other’s evil purposes. I have been a Scientologist for 40 years and the technology that I use has been hugely valuable to making my life, and the lives of those around me, better. I want ALL beings to achieve the best that they can be. I personally aspire to no other “cause”. If you can contribute to that “cause” in some fashion then I welcome you. If if you cannot, or will not, then we are obviously not on the same page at all.

Thank you and I understand. I am most definitely on the page of helping others and it’s an elitist attitude to insinuate otherwise and did you know that many, many people involved with the group, that calls itself Anonymous, feel the same way? They are doing what they are doing to HELP.

Since I assumed (and apparently incorrectly) that once DM is gone and no longer the head honcho of evil and corruption, and when we are no longer subject to cruel disconnection policies and are then able to reconnect with our families (and enjoy everything else that goes with the state of freedom that does not exist within the church), then we could move on and enjoy that freedom independently or as a group but with no need to have a “cause”. The “cause”, as you state it, is just simply standard tech and I don’t need Marty (not to bash Marty), or you or anybody else to be able to do that nor do I need his or anybody else’s opinion.

I AM interested in the corruption and human rights abuses being exposed. I believe this blog is useful in that regard. If you need a blog to come to when that’s all over in order to feel like you’re really applying the technology and helping people to the best of your ability then that’s up to you. I stand corrected on the “we” part.

Excuse me for my less than cheery comments on this blog at this time. I am not happy about the divisiveness and quite frankly, it is heart breaking to me when I hear some (not all) Scientologists who are supposed to be so loving and caring, sound narrow minded and judgemental and the whole flavor of this piece is”who do want to fight today”? IMO, clearly stated as such.

I think it’s safe to assume you are not trained and have no subjective reality on the workability of the tech because your viewpoint of LRH and his tech reflects this. It’s so not valid. I request that before you do any more posting on this blog that you complete a Life Repair auditing action – done standardly as in – according to LRH tech OR if you don’t want to know what case gain is for yourself then please find a blog that parallels your mind and your communication will be far more likely to be understood and appropriately acknowledged. You’re on the wrong blog if your campaigning against LRH and you’re wasting my reading time.

Mike,
Just curious how much, if any Scientology you’ve studied or experienced in order to come to the conclusion it is worthless and evil. I’m not saying I agree or disagree with you, I’m curious about this one fact, please. Thanks.

Well, first of all “Anonymous” is more of a concept than an organization, and therefore anyone who considers themselves “Anonymous” could do something of their own accord without it being officially approved or coordinated with anyone else. However, I don’t think that you’re really on their radar screen these days, though they probably monitor this blog and that sort of thing. And the fact that whoever is doing this has access to one of those “travel computers” sounds more like C of S.

I think this is classic third party tech. Someone in OSA is trying to spoof as Anonymous to try get you to attack them, so that they in turn actually do some kind of attack on you. They want you to attack each other so that neither of you attack them.

Also, ever heard of Caller ID? I suggest you turn it on on your phone lines and if these calls continue, report it to LE as Harrasment (with the incoming phone number of course).

Yes of course the churchies already know about caller ID. Duh. My point is that when/if a call comes in as unknown/unavailable, then he doesn’t have to answer it. If the caller blocks his call, most carriers offer anonymous call rejection, which will forward such callers to a recorded message and Marty’s phone won’t even ring. Caller ID is more about dodging calls considered annoying than figuring out who is actually calling you. For one thing, you can spoof caller ID and cause any number to be displayed on the person’s phone that you’re calling (spoofcard.com). Of course, the harrasser could be calling from a pay phone for all we know. Caller ID is far from infallible but it’s at least a starting point.

Anonymous hasn’t sent unwanted pizzas for over two years. It sounds very much like someone’s idea of what Anonymous does, which makes me think it’s likely OSA. Keep in mind that DM would love nothing more than to drive a wedge between his enemies and pit them against each other.

While there are no doubt major differences between Anons and Independents, the thing both groups have in common is wanting to see an end to DM’s abuses.

Of course, no one is more aware of this than DM, which would make sense that he would run an op such as this.

I would use Rollback. The point is to combine rollback with nots tech. Then it works positive.
As one “master mind” can operate an ant hill one being can operate more than one first d.
My key not understanding of the matter was and is “time”. Thus I had not been able to untagle it in mid 80.
And by the way (I do not have much knowledge about US) if that would be germany the only one that has unlimeted access to flight info is the secret service. And if someone would use those data then the secret service would investigate and handle fast. And if DM would not be allowed to have those data then “homeland security” would bust his home and find out the source of that leak.

johnny, the premise of your statement is faulty. I’ll give you an example, this conversation actually happened today with a colleague. Let’s call him S.

Me: Is there any language that successfully implemented multiple inheritance?
S: Python, well, sort of.
Me: Hmm. Personally I’d rather use rare complex workarounds, and shift the complexity of having to support the feature universally in the entire language syntax onto the end developer. Make them deal with localized complexity in the rare case when they need it rather than overyone deal with it all the time. The designers of java felt the same.
S: So did Guido. He relented and allowed it in the language but necessarily forced the developer to establish an arbitrary set of precedence rules that will uniquely resolve without conflict or collision.
Me: Just like our precedence rules for passwds, shells and unix_uids in the chg config. But I still want you to templatize those three; and I want support for a role_relation “no_uid” for those roles that have no concept of a UID.
S: Should be easy enough, the machinery is already there. Have you finished building that testing sandbox yet?

I promise you, that is real English. It parses, it makes sense and it grammatically correct. But, if you are not a knowledgeable IT person who understands the theory, it makes absolutely no sense at all. It might as well be gobbledeegook.

Any technical subject gathers it’s own lingo and jargon. People who work with it understand it, and everyone else needs some ttraining and study to get to where they also understand it.

IT is like this. Scientology is like this. George’s post makes complete sense to someone who works with the subject (making allowances for him being German).

This blog was set up for Scientologists. It does not cater much for people who don’t already know much about the subject. people are going to use familiar jargon and that’s how life works. Berating George for doing the entirely reasonable thing for this blog is a tad disingenuous on your part don’t you think?

Marty, I suppose you could send a warning note to all the pizza places in town explaining what is happening (and why?) and perhaps tell them only to take an order for your address if you use a given password.

Marty, I think I can speak for all of the regular posters on this blog when I say, I’m sorry you have to put up with that kind of crap! There’s no fairness in it whatsoever. Please just keep on truckin’ We all appreciate it.

It’s not the COS but members of the anonymous irc group and moderators of their forum who have nothing better to do. People might be right about them having ties to miscavige. They’re using skype, not phones.

Clearly, it’s the Church of Scientology management. They (mostly David Miscavage) are scared shitless of their overts being found out, especially by their own members through the airing of this show.

(IMO, they should be much, much more afraid of the information here on Marty’s blog, and that the word of it is secretly spreading throughout the congregation and fully exposing David Miscavage’s conspiracy to destroy Scientology.)

CofS does their “handlings” on the basis of FEAR … the fear of being found out. We KNOW many of David Miscavages overts and withholds. He is a desparate psychotic doing everything in his power to STOP anything that reveals who he really is.

I believe this show will fully reveal to all how really scared church Scientologists are at confronting high-confront Scientologists and Media. Part of it will show their refusal to communicate. They can’t hide their response or non-response from anybody. They will fully demonstrate to all public how church Scientologists are NOT applying Scientology.

Just look at their hysteria … their utter terror and non-confront of demonstrators, media, and Independent Scientologists here. Their hysteria is that we’re all SP’s!

Here’s what Ron says about psychotics …

“Psychotics” by L. Ron Hubbard

Excerpt …

“The true psychotic is one who causes hysteria, apathy, misconceptions and the reactions of stress in others. That is the identity of the being that is the source of psychosis.

He is, by and large, rather unconfrontable as a being, talking in the widest generalities, and sounds quite sane unless you listen to him closely. Then it will be found that the reasons he gives do not quite make sense, but are all directed toward the necessity of smashing or brutalizing anyone and everyone or selected groups, or material objects.

The actual psychotic is covertly or overtly destructive of anything the rest of us consider good or decent or worthwhile.

Sometimes such a being is “successful” in life, but the end result of his activities are what you would expect—total smash. Some notable examples were Hitler and Napoleon.

The true psychotic brings about an hysterical, apathetic, or deranged mental condition in others. He or she does it for “many good reasons”, does it for no reason at all, or doesn’t even notice that he is doing it.

As others have stated defining Anonymous as one single representative group of individuals is not possible. They are as varied as snowflakes and have no true leaders. They are like grains of sand. Try as you might to contain them the harder you squeeze the more sand escapes. Anonymous is more akin to a concept. The Chanologist Anonymous are those who currently have a like minded purpose in exposing the CoS. The 4 Chan Anonymous are the more hard core Anonymous and it would not surprise me if those were responsible for hounding Marty. There is some cross blending of the two purposes if you will but the truer purist 4 Chans Anonymous abandoned Chanology long ago and actually view the Chanologist Anologist as “SPs”. Of course there is the rogue element as always that don’t subscribe to anything but their own values and warp sense of humour.
There has been some constant DDos attacks on WWP for the last year and the mods have stated that it is not from the CoS and likely from wannabies i.e some anonymous. So there is a real possibility that this is an anonymous trying to stir shit for Anonymous.
Either way it is a diversionary tactic and Marty you seem capbale to handle it. As already suggested calling all the pizza joints and making them aware would not be a bad idea.

The anons I know have no quarrel with you, Marty. While Anonymous may say stuff about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard, which is the past, the true struggle of any committed anons who are still paying attention after two years is against DM and the abusive Cult of Scientology he runs, which is the present and future. They would never do anything to aid and abet David Miscavige or harass anyone trying to practice their own individual belief system without hurting others and without coercion or the power to destroy families. This is clearly OSA’s work.

I would like to second that notion. Just because I am opposed to Hubbard’s concepts does not mean I personally am hateful of you. Obviously, that’s valid for my own persona only, there are anons that are hatin’ as you’d say in Texas. But I believe we established this sufficiently already.

I have a quarrel with Marty, but I limit my actions to strong words on my blog. I would never in a million years mess with Marty and his family, and believe (and hope!) other anons feel the same way. The Church doesn’t seem to have those scruples, and this has “Fair Game” written all over it. I have to admit, the bit about LRH vs DM is a rather ingenious and authentic touch, but the idea of “dealing with” Marty with pizzas and phone calls has OSA written all over it.

Don’t know if you’ll let this comment stand, Marty, but as one of your most ardent protesters, I want you to know that I think this sort of harassment is reprehensible. Everything I feel needs to be done, can be done with the written word. Harassment of this sort, against you, Mosey, or anyone, is wrong. I’ve always spoken out against it and I always will.

BTW, your point about the interdependence between Anonymous and the Church is interesting, and one I’ll probably write more about.

Thanks, Marty. I always strive for honesty, and if you feel I’ve written something that is factually incorrect, then by all means please let me know via comment or private email (which will stay private). All comments on my site (aside from obvious spam) go live, and I invite you and your readers to put that one to the test.

Sounds like the Craig’s List estate sale OSA tried to pull on Mike Rinder’s house several months ago. More childish pranks that the dwarf tries to pull off. Just like the equally childish musical chairs in the conference room at the Int Base. These childish pranks will continue and become intensely more mundane and prankish. Sorry for the redundancy but the Dwarf is known for his April Fools mentality cause that’s all he’s got left. He hasn’t a clue on how to apply the tech so he invents his concept of the Tech. “Let me see, what would Ron do?” The dwarf then puts this through the DM Filter and what comes out on the other end is a pesky, pertinacious(hard to get rid of) perversion that it drives the insanity to redundancy.
Your thoughts…..

It’s so insane that thinking whether it’s right or wrong doesn’t even enter the Dwarf’s universe. He can’t see beyond his Napoleonic mentality – ALL MEN TALLER THAN ME NEED TO ME MADE SHORTER SO ‘ i ‘ AM THE TALLEST IN THE LAND. Think about it!

You really are a fuckwit. You have had the chance time and time again to make good all the hurt you have distributed through your years in scientology. BUT, because you’re scared of the legal ramifications for yourself, you remain mostly silent. Maybe you remain silent because you’re just like LRH and Miscavige…you crave power and followers.

Marty, what you seek cannot happen. Scientology as a subject is well and truly a social POX now. LRH knew that ‘public opinion’ was the key to success, and he himself witnessed just how bad public opinion could be for his ‘discoveries of the human mind’.
He saw it in Australia, Rhodesia and Canada well before he died.

I don’t expect you’ll allow this comment through, because you are all about controlling people just like hubbard states in Technique88.
You are a liar and seek nothing more than elevation for yourself.
Reap what you sow.

It mus hurt that media didn’t clamor around you for weeks on end after you initially saw an opportunity to perform a Miscavige-type-coupe

Hasn’t worked out so well, eh?
Thanks for helping the cause in the ultimate destruction and deconstruction of scientology/dianetios……albeit being inadvertently on your part.
Have no regrets on that issue marty, as I don’t think any SP’s have any.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

OSHII!! You can nao tell your sycophants that you were right in your presumption that Anon’s are harassing you.
Where is ‘victim’ on the tone-scale again?.

1) Your post is still up. Boy, you got Marty shakin’ in his boots! Brava!
2) How can Marty be “mostly” silent when he has done interviews with television and newspaper people, started a couple blogs, and is in the process of writting at least one book if not more? Not to mention getting married, auditing pre-clears and fixing botched jobs from Flag?
3) If Marty is the “victim,” then how is it YOU are the one posting on HIS website? and have not been deleted? have not been edited? have not created a desired effect? have not rattled any cages? have not gotten a response from the Man?

And where are YOU on the tone scale? One point what?
You have a wonderful day. kkthx.

PS: Next time, extra cheese. And I prefer deep-dish myself. Does Uno’s deliver??? 🙂

1. I like presumptuous scientologists. Where did I even imply intimidation toward martyr in my OP?
FLUNK!
START
2. Marty won’t speak directly to authorities with regard to CRIMES committed in the name of perpetuating/protecting scientology
FLUNK!
START
3. Go back 2 places
FLUNK!
START
Would it be that martyr saw me post my comment on WWP and didn’t want his followers to see how demonstrative controlling martyr is when push comes to shove?
Lordy, and you also help establish how scientology is no more friendly outside the confides of the so-called ‘church’ by you trying to apply the tone-scale to everyone.
What’s that, people 2.0 and below deserve what?
Don’t hate the player, hate the ‘game’

Oh wait, you cannot hate a game you cannot see nor comprehend.

Keep trying to assign blame of martyr’s harassment on Anon….I’m sure Mcsavage will be pleased.

Marty, Iv’e been here a few times before. Do you recall Stephen Sadnud? That’s me. Albeit I chose to post Anon, it doesn’t change who >I< am, really. Your little fan club sprout how "hateful" and "violent" my words are, but truth be told, it hurts when confront is truly confronted. It's not about 'perceptions of truth', nor 'gradient' of 'truth', or 'relevance' to a 'datum'.
Oh yeah, I was dedicated…but like so many, dedication only goes so far when a crack appears to peer through

You see Marty, I didn't just pick Technique88 as a reference point to correlate how LRH was right in how controlling people with lying is done uniformly. I specifically chose it to demonstrate how to 'not-know' is automatic when one is truly confronted with the POV that causes the vanishment of the agreed upon reality.

Marty, you and your fan club leap to assumption after assumption because you still run LRH's own 'case'.
OSA
OSA
OSA

i r OSA!!!!

Tears well in my eyes when I see just how broken so many of you are, really.
It's so sad to see people that refuse to move on because the level of denial as a scientologist runs so deep

I don't 'hate' you, nor do I hate your followers. What I demonstrate is a bad taste in my mouth with how you just won't go that extra mile for all those that have suffered over the decades. I know you won't take that extra step, because for you to do so is to implicate yourself, and cowards just don't step up to the plate when it is really needed.

Anyway Marty, you and your fan club can label me as you will, it won't change how in the outside world scientology will never exist in the form LRH desired.
After all, it only takes one to not 'agree' for 'reality' to crumble.

Anon,
What I don’t get about you is why you feel you have to communicate on this blog in the hateful, insulting manner in which you do. Is this how you communicate in person, in real life, when you wish to have a meaningful and enjoyable dialog with someone about your ideas? If you were invited to someone’s home or you dropped by to see them to communicate, would you express your ideas in a hateful adamant, insulting way or would you be friendly and respectful to them even though you disagreed with them? If it’s the former, then why drop by at all? Just to fling some eggs at their house or have some hateful dialog and then drive on by? I truly don’t get it, unless I’m just so old school that I can’t grasp this form of ‘communicating’.

This internet messaging is not real life. It’s some kind of morphed, substitute quasi-existence where people are not actually communicating for the most part, but just flinging messages about. Real communication takes place where you can observe the intentions, state of mind, mannerisms, facial expressions, and magnitude of delivery of an idea and to also be able to see how it lands in the mind of another, to achieve understanding and thus enjoy it or have it be fruitful in some manner or accomplish something worthwhile, even though ideas may differ. Would you communicate differently if you were sitting down for an enjoyable cup of coffee with Marty or any Scientologist?

It seems like your true purpose is to show or prove that L. Ron Hubbard was a horrible person who created a fraudulent rip-off fake harmful whacky religion designed to control people so he could gain power, notoriety and money and is the actual evil force behind Miscavige and that all followers of Scientology are duped, hypnotised hypocrites who are forwarding an evil agenda and you want to see the whole thing wiped off the map. OK, got it.

That’s your total right to think that, as well as your selection of temperament and podium from which to express those ideas. Please excuse me if I’m just too dull or dimwitted or whatever, but I just don’t get something…if you really wish to get your ideas across and make any progress whatsoever towards the purpose of WHY you are communicating, doesn’t it make sense to put those ideas across in a way they would be most likely to at least be somewhat respectfully contemplated in the mind of the recipient?

There’s no substitute for the magic and power of true understanding of one’s own and another’s motives, feelings, decisions, perspectives or the hows and whys of their beliefs and ideas. If I was going to try to influence someone about something I felt was so important that I had to use persistently harsh and forceful words, I think I would quickly get to the stage where I would realize I was only arguing and that no real communication was taking place and that I was responsible for severing the very communication I desired, so I’d give up unless my purpose was simply to harass or annoy or be bothersome and cute to impress myself or some friends. Does that make any sense? I really would like to know.

I actually enjoy reading non-Scientologists’, Anonymous’s, or ANYONE’S writings on this or any blog even it opposes what I may believe, unless it’s just plain purposefully rude, obnoxious, arrogant or harassing. Whenever someone writes something derogatory about Hubbard or Scientology, if it’s put across respectfully as a true viewpoint of the person, and they have a reason for their statement and are clearly speaking from an informed standpoint by either having read Hubbard’s works or had direct experience with the subject, then I’ll contemplate that person’s idea to see if it has any truth for myself and I’ll accept it or personally reject it, but I will always try to see why and how it is true for the deliverer of that communication. At least I’ll possibly come away with some degree of higher understanding.

If ideas are respectfully relayed in a safe environment where one didn’t feel attacked, where attempts were made to truly try grasp the other person’s view, then they would certainly be welcome in my home even if they disagreed. Otherwise, I’m sure I would very swiftly eject them from my home and if possible my neighborhood if all that was taking place was drive-by yapping.

Although I’m fairly new to this blog method of quasi-communication, I am not new to how to genuinely communicate with people. But maybe there is something for me to learn and I’m open to it.

“This internet messaging is not real life. It’s some kind of morphed, substitute quasi-existence where people are not actually communicating for the most part, but just flinging messages about.”

I agree with most of what you say OTDT except for the above.

Written communication, no matter what delivery method (Internet or physical paper), may be the most powerful vehicle to enable compassionate communication.

Written communication allows one to pause, temper oneself, and thoughtfully and carefully get across what one means without interruption (potential thought stopping).

Written communication is no more “not real life” than verbal communication. It’s just a different vehicle for communicating. Written communication is the foundation of storage and training of all human knowledge so knowledge is not lost.

Face to face communication forces one to be impromptu, and not have enough time to deliberate and cool the temper from just reacting. IMO, it is actually a tougher skill to do verbal communication than written communication.

Face to face communication also has the hazard of verbal data. Typically, it’s not recorded, so it can’t be gone over again to carefully ponder over, again, and again unless one has a perfect memory.

For me, written communication, overall, is a safer and more careful and easier to be civilized communication vehicle.

Imagine the Declaration of Independence to be verbalized just once, and then lost in all human history. That’s why it was put in the written word. “Put it in writing”, one says. How valuable that idea is.

My own father is all confused about the “Internet” not being “real life”. What he fails to understand is that communication which is delivered electronically does not make written communication any less real than the written word on physical paper or verbal communication, just because it’s in electronic form.

Wayne,
Good points you make and all true. I’m referring to conversation mainly, and should have said so. In my opinion, real life conversation has been largely supplanted by lots of digital yap. From my observation, it has not gotten people more into communication and has not improved conditions at all. It’s a cute messaging system, similar to village to village drumming, just more highly evolved. Just my opinion.
🙂

I understand that communication behind an Alias name can be surreal, which tends to raise skepticism and vigilance in the veracity of the communication. The “relationship” starts without even knowing who the person is, so from the get go there’s a distrust factor that you don’t have when one is face to face.

Also, when one can hide behind a screen name, it allows for the potential of the responsibility level of the communication to be sloppy because there is no fear of any consequence.

In all earnestness of respect to you, I highly recommend you, Anons, Scientologists, and even every human being on planet earth, to get what I consider, perhaps, the most important book one can read specifically on the subject of real communication.

Though Marshall has a degree in Clinical Psychology, he disagrees with the “Mental Illness” paradigm of its practice. He went against the wind of his own fellow practitioners, and has even done many demonstrations to them of his discovered tech.

I’ll even go as far as saying that he’s teaching a part of the huge expansive subject of pure “Scientology” which is “knowing how to know”, whether Dr. Rosenberg realizes it as such or not.

I know for a fact that studying this book will do everybody a world of good towards moving one towards peace with others and compassionate understanding … to truly get in communication with all humankind. I consider this the lacuna in “knowing how to know” (Scientology, the subject/science).

(Even LRH said the world is out of comm. So right he is.)

I am hopeful that all work harder on their communication and empathy skills.

Here is just one review of the book, of which words I don’t know if I could have expressed better myself …

5.0 out of 5 stars Profound! The most important book I’ve ever read.

By Rachelle Lamb (Victoria, BC Canada)

Initially I thought this book wouldn’t be relevant to me since I didn’t consider myself a “violent” communicator. A few pages into the book however, it became evident to me that despite my easy-going nature, I had much to learn about communication.

Dr. Rosenberg identifies learned communication that disconnects us from each other and is at the very root of violence. He then offers a simple yet powerful 4 step model that leads to respectful and compassionate communication.

One catch – while the model is simple, it can be challenging to apply, especially when we’re upset. That’s because most of us have learned to blame others when we’re upset and it’s hard to unlearn this behavior. However, use of the model deepens our awareness and it becomes very clear how destructive our habitual knee-jerk reactions are to both ourselves and others.

The Nonviolent Communication model helps us to become conscious and choose to respond differently – that is in ways that are more likely to lead to positive and satisfying outcomes for everyone.

If you’d like to transform your relationships, for example: learn how to really listen to others while not taking anything you hear personally (what a gift!), learn how to give and receive in ways that are deeply gratifying, and much more, this is a must read.

On a personal note, this book has been life-changing for me. I have witnessed truly amazing results in all my relationships including one relationship which had been a great struggle for me for many years.

Perhaps the biggest lesson I’m learning now is that one brings on antagonism to oneself by using anger, blame, shame, and guilt on others.

Many individuals in the Church of Scientology have done this, and continue to insanely do so. Many call this action CofS “foot bullets.”

Communication isn’t enough.

Communication with empathy is the key to positive relationships and peaceful co-existance.

Ironically, the Church of Scientology, who is supposed to be teaching the subject of communication (allegedly the experts), have fallen out of communication with the world.

The misapplication of real communication has caused the majority outside of CofS to be perceive it as a ruthless church without heart, which is the direct opposite of what most concieve a church should be.

The biggest and most obvious OUTPOINT of the CofS is their lack of compassionate communication.

Why is this? (Does one just assign sole responsibility to DM for this outpoint, and that’s that? Will that really end this problem for everybody?)

I hope the point of non-empathic communication by CofS will be made crystal clear in the upcoming show on BBC Panorama.

Yes, there is truly a crucial need for specific Tech on nonviolent, compassionate communication, not only for the CofS, but for every individual on Earth, IMO.

I doubt any of you OSA minions will ever be able to successfully impersonate an Anonymous member because you are too full of hatred and contempt for anyone and everyone who isn’t carrying out McSavage’s “Command Intention” to ever have enough ARC for that beingness to duplicate it!

Is it that you are frustrated because you don’t believe Marty has done enough for the worthy mutual cause of eliminating the abuse going on in the Church of Scientology?

Is there something specific you fear if the Church of Scientology’s abuse isn’t stopped soon enough? Do you have a time frame in mind? If so, what is a reasonable time frame?

Would you be willing to explain what are you really feeling, what specific hurt or emotion you may be feeling right now?

What is it exactly that you wish Marty would do to help, that he’s not doing or you may feel he’s not doing right?

And with that idea of whatever you wish Marty to do or do better, that he’s not doing to your standard or satisfaction, do you think there may be a way you can ask him to help that may possibly endear him, instead of name calling, so he may want to take your advice or suggestions?

Do you think this may be more effective communication method to get the results you’re personally looking for?

I’m really trying to understand what you’re saying, and how you feel, and how you may be able to be more effective here to make things better for all.

lol. I seriously wasn’t trolled at all. I wrote what I wrote with a definite purpose in mind which apparently flew over some heads. Hint: One purpose was to practice something for my own benefit to see how well I could do it.

But in order to know what I was doing, you’d have to study the tech of nonviolent communication.

Wayne
You were so trolled! LOL
It’s got OSA plant written all over it – trying to sound like an Anon but can’t resist all the bot bot evaluations:
“where is ‘victim’ on the tones scale again?”
it’s right in there with
“what did you do to pull it in?”
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!

I’m totally fine if you think that, and for apparently trying to extremely point out what such a “fool” I was for “falling” for feeding a troll. If that fulfills a need of yours, then I’m very happy for you. Enjoy it! 🙂

Hey Wayne,
I thought your questions were excellent. I wrote some myself, not expecting answers but I do like to give an attempt at looking to see if there’s some point of perspective I might be able to be enlightened on from one of those ‘troll’ messages. I don’t have a clue who they’re really from. Could be OSA, could be a anon person, could be a phony hypocrite, lofty person, could be goddamn Pat Broeker for all I know. I tend to just take ’em at face value and if I feel interested at all I might communicate, as you have done and so did I.

Marty might not be interested in that and that’s fine. He just very well might have a higher degree of understanding of this sort of stuff than I, but I don’t operate on what I think Marty’s level of understanding may or may not be, although I do respect it. This is his home field and he can censor that ‘troll’s’ post or anyone’s any time he wishes. Maybe he’s feeling generous or whimsical or mischievous or whatever as to why he occasionally allows that type of post. Maybe as a reminder to readers here of what’s on the other side of the fence. I don’t know, doesn’t matter to me. It’s all this blog stuff is just Quasi-communication at best due to it’s very nature. Videos are better. Real life, in-person communication is the only actual way for true communication to fully take place, so short of that I don’t expect too much.

Besides, for some crazy reason whenever I’ve been to a zoo where the menacing animals are locked behind bars, pacing back and forth, obviously not enjoying their environment nor circumstance, and the sign says, “Please don’t feed the animals”, I can’t help but want to throw them some food I think they might possibly enjoy, a Twinkie or a hunk o’ steak or something.

Actually some Anons went through many tapes to find the Sci Fi stuff to use acording to fair use. I listened to some just out of curiousity. Factors, discussion about light comming before energy. That is Illogical acording to many. Alsoo the use of a priori stated factors.

() Applied to knowledge and conceptions assumed, or presupposed, as prior to experience, in order to make experience rational or possible.
() Characterizing that kind of reasoning which deduces consequences from definitions formed, or principles assumed, or which infers effects from causes previously known; deductive or deductively. The reverse of a posteriori.

There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the Tone Scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow.
p. 170

Could there be even bigger “fish to fry” in other supposed nonviolent “religious” texts?

“It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”.

For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3).

He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6).

In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife!

Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).”

Cat Daddy, I’m interested in your opinion about something. When someone reads those statements about the way to control someone is through lying, do they think that Hubbard is recommending that as a method? Have you come across anyone who takes that statement as Hubbard pointing out that someone should not be controlled through lying? I’m just curious.

Yes they think Hubbard “lived” that statement as gospel they not see it as an objective observance.
I onley came across people saying with that quote: That is taken out of context !
I see it as an objective observance wich unfortunatly he did use as a method/technique IMO a tad to often regarding to the religious cloacking.

Lieing, Sex, Pain, Money, Fear, Religion are all ways/methods/techniques to control people IMO but all can be good alsoo even lieing sometimes.

CD,
So, you are of the opinion that Scientology, as a subject does not fall under the category of ‘religion’?

Personally, I’ve never liked the name or idea of ‘religion’, before, during or after my 30+ year stint in Scientology. I don’t like the idea of associating the subject of Scientology with religion.

Religions, past and current, have a deservedly terrible reputation and a long track record of fanatical abuse way, way worse than anything that DM and his current church could even pretend to muster up to try to get away with. Wars, annihilation of populations, take-overs and attempted exterminations of races, extreme thought control, bizarre rituals, burnings at the stake, perverted priest molestations, boiling in oil, lying, bullying, plundering, etc. etc. etc.

I personally never liked the look of the SCN cross or the fake Sunday Service, or the damn word ‘church’ or ministers collars or any of that. To me it was a hokey, insulting, ignorant and worn out idea.

But, at the core of the philosophy, beliefs and practices of Scientology is the recognition of the true nature of a person as being a spirit. That idea itself goes beyond regular human existence and deals with the very nature and purpose of the universe and as much as I hate to admit it, ‘religion’, per the definition of the word, does seem to be a befitting category for the core subject. I wish they’d never used the religion thing and just called it an applied philosophy and to hell with all those damn tax wars for the sake of money. The rest of all the policies on how the religion is to managed or supervised or protected or how to deal with it’s ‘enemies’ or how to control its adherents is NOT part of the religion itself even though many Scientologists might disagree with me, depending on their personal level of commitment to the ‘Admin’ part of the Tech/Ethics/Admin trio. They’re just written guidelines and instructions on how to administer the tech.

Anyway, as far as Hubbard himself lying to ‘control’, I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think so. Not about the ‘religion’ part anyway. I did personally see him lie on a video when he was asked how many times he had been married and he said only twice, but really it was three. So he lied about that. Big deal, I don’t condemn him for that lie. I don’t know if it was he who authorized others to lie about his history and exploits and he let it pass or if he really was or wasn’t blinded at the end of WWII or any of that. But that’s not the subject of Scientology anyway, is it? The ‘Tech’ is one thing and then PR about or by Hubbard and his life or antics or track record is another subject entirely.

What part of the philosophy or practice or tech of Scientology itself do you think Hubbard was intentionally lying about? I’m not trying to prove you wrong or anything like that, I really would like to try to understand it from your viewpoint.

“Theta clearing is about as practical and simple as repairing a shoe lace. It is nothing to do with hypnotism, voodooism, charalatanism, monkeyism or theosophy. Done, the thetan can do anything a stage magician can do in the way of moving objects around. But this isn’t attained by holding one’s breath or thinking right thoughts or voting Republican or any other superstitous or mystic practice. So for the reason I brought up, rule out, auditor, any mumbo jumbo or mysticism, spiritualism, or religion.”

And

The Creation of Human Ability, L. Ron Hubbard, 1953.

“Society, thirsting for more control of more people substitutes religion for the spirit, the body for the soul, an identity for the individual and science and data for truth. In this direction lies insanity, increasing slavery, less knowingness, greater scarcity and less society.

“Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a
psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which, when properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual.

But Buddhism is regarded as a Religion too when it isn’t really one. In England these days Jediïsm is recognized as a Religion too. The Factors seem somewhat of a Scientology Genesis or Spiritual Bing Bang Theory of sorts.

If you want to call it your Religion you are certainly free to do so ;).

Getting Perfect Memory would be one of the lies I think. Curing Shizophrenia another. OT III has a purpose of sliming up some areas or rather it is some sort revenge on every group or organization that stood in his way in his eyes.

The Tech I find neutral enough. However part of the Scientology philosophy holds many of Hubbards opinions I do not share. It is not higher knowledge just his opinions.

CD,
Got it. I personally don’t call Scientology my religion even though I was a Scientologist for over 30 years. I don’t like the frame of reference of religion at all, it doesn’t seem intelligent to me.

Re: History of Man quote – he’s saying he can extract the spirit (Thetan) out of the body and mind using a particular protocol, and it’s application was independent of what anyone thought about religion or gods or magic or anything else. He’s stating it just plain works despite any beliefs or labeling. Whether it does or not is a matter of opinion and experience.

Re: Creation of Human Ability – I agree with him that it’s not a religion, if the definition of religion depends upon having a belief or faith system.

Re: Buddism – yeah, no single entity god worship there, some faith though. Depends on exactly how you dissect the etymology of the words describing religion. As in Scientology, everyone’s a god and if one has faith in that, then I suppose it really could be called a religion.

Re: the perfect memory thing – have to agree with you on this one, but I don’t know if Hubbard was intentionally lying or simply idealistically postulating. Your guess is as good as mine, but I know what you’re saying. The descriptions of Clear in DMSM from 1950 are not manifest in any Clears I’ve ever met. Therefore could be considered to be lies. They are definitely not manifested truths, but my definition of lie is something that is purposely put forth as true when it is known by the originator that it is untrue. I don’t know if that’s the exact case with Hubbard or not.

Re: the Schizo thing – if people have tried SCN techniques to try to cure this and it didn’t work, then I guess it would have to be untrue. Other than that Lisa McPh thing, I don’t know if any schz’phrenics have been addressed with any of Hubbard’s recommended techniques. And from what I understand, they didn’t apply Hubbard’s stuff properly to Lisa, so that can’t be a good test. They were idiots who treated her, incorrectly. I don’t know if Hubbard was lying when he said he could cure ’em. Maybe HE could, I don’t know. But I can definitely see how this stuff comes across as lies.

Re: the OT III stuff – yeah. Can definitely come across as a load of hogwash and lies. Does seem to at least partially require a belief system, so maybe that’s more evidence that SCN actually falls into the category of a religion. Hard to say that the stories in the Christian bible about turning water to wine and all that are lies if some people swear it’s true.

Thanks for taking the time to give me these excellent examples. You have a clear and sane way of observing things, in my opinion.

Lisa was driven insane. I do not believe she had any disorder at all before the “church”got their claws in her. Her stripping naked after a car accident was clearly a cry for help.

Most people acting insane are just sane people reacting to insane situations. You could sday in Scientology terms the “church”or David Miscavige was/were the SP she could not get away from even when in hospital.

The most intresting development nowadays coming close to Hubbards claims is the field of Neuroplasticity wich is 25 years old at best in the Neurosciences. You’ve got to love that MRI technology nowadays.

Just a comment about Hubbards mentioning having been married twice. I saw the video too, and in my opinion he answers that question truthfully, from his point of view.

Around the net there are some docs about the marriages, and one of the three marriages turned out to be with a woman who accepted Hubbard just to bleed information from him and pass it on, she was not truthfully saying ‘I do’, it appears.

Why it took some time for him to find out about her ‘other fish to fry’ is of course interesting, I guess he has his limits too. So for me it makes perfect sense when he says he has only been married (really) twice.

He should maybe have explained right there, that one of the marriages turned out to be a mistake, but he apparently did not see an easy way to do that.

In actual fact, Ron’s “second marriage” (to Sara) was never a legal marriage, as he was still married (unknowingly) to Polly. The divorce papers to Polly had never been finalized at the time that he tried to marry Sara. So in effect, he never actually married (or needed to divorce) Sara.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Northrup

So in actual fact, Mary Sue was his second legal wife, and Ron was only married twice.

If LRH had said to the reporter that he was married three times, he THEN would have in fact been lying.

(And btw, LRH detractors are by-and-large aware of this whole “invalid second marriage” thing, but in their anti-LRH propaganda campaign, they choose to ignore it in order to “prove that LRH lied”.)

CD, There are always “he said she saids” in the ending of relationships. It was Ron’s view that it was HE who was “abandonded by family and friends” after the war. Polly saw it differently. We could go around endlessly debating this. We could do the same with regard to how and when Ron and Sara’s relationship ended.

The main point was: did Ron lie about being only married twice?

No, he did not. And his grin during the interview, gives away his awareness of both the humour and the irony, in the questions and his answers.

Namely, in an ironic twist, it was the reporter who — having failed to do a thorough investigation and hoping to catch Ron in a “gotcha” — ended up lying about the number of times that Ron was actually married.

I am referring specifically to those apparently coming from anons and/or people whose handles I have never seen before on your blog.

Daily, I look forward to reading your latest post, and going through all the comments. Almost invariably, my tone level rises as a result – there is a huge amount of theta here.

Today is a different story. The haters are out in force. It is hard to confront. Usually we are talking about the evil in CofM. Today, many of the replies are bringing into focus some of the evil (or just plain nastiness) outside the CofM.

Evil against Evil, with the Good Guys in the middle.

I’m not talking about the pranks on you – seems pretty obvious to me that’s coming from OSA. Even if OSA goons are like the Keystone Kops most of the time, at least they have the intelligence to figure out how to tap into an airline database & order a pizza. But if “anon” (above) is a statistical average of the IQ of the typical Anon, though, these clowns make OSA look like the best of MI5, CIA, KGB, and SMERSH.

What an eye-opener (at least for me) in what you are dealing with. Taking fire from two different directions at once. Well, I would think it’s of some comfort to know that the number of allies you have is growing larger every day, even if most of us can’t be with you to share those pizzas!

Marty,
“If you become free and able to operate, you won’t find yourself terribly interested in the baser games any more than you go passionately and devotedly down to the corner grocery store to watch a checker game if you ‘re living in a small town; any more than you would drive five hundred miles or something like that to watch a boys’ grade school play football. See, I mean, it’s just not a game.” LRH 28 Oct 53

Anon was before the Church of Scientology and it will be around after the church. I doubt it was Anon. They have better things to do as I look around the web and I know their attention started to go towards DOS some websites that has to do with copyrights.

It’s Miscavige, no question. This point about DM vs. LRH being the cause of the downstats after Dave took over is way way too esoteric for anonymous to be dealing with. I know they know about it but to be operating off of it because they really care that DM isn’t blamed? I’m not seeing that they care about that point significantly enough to truly act on it, on their websites.
There’s no way anonymous is going that far out of their way solely to exonerate Dave and condemn LRH.

Yes, you’re right — it used to be true that OSA ops wouldn’t trash LRH online.

However, in the last six months I’ve seen anti-LRH rhetoric by OSA trolls posing as Anons (on WWP) or posing as Indies (on OSA-run sites that purport to be anti-M&M Indie sites). Yes, I realize it’s tough to confirm an OSA troll on WWP, but some of them seem pretty obvious from ‘their’ common syntax and piling on. And the so-called anti-M&M ‘Indie’ sites are hilarious, since they’re the ones of late that seem to know which flights M&M are taking, down to their arrival times. Brilliant cover, guys!

If there ever was a ‘Don’t trash LRH’ line that OSA once would not cross, it seems someone moved that line not long ago. Wonder who that was!

However, the fact that noone so far has stepped up to claim responsibility, not even doing so posting anonymously, I now am quite sure it was an OSA operation.
No doubt in the next hours we’ll have some free riders who will claim they did it. But by now I’m pretty confident in my assessment.

Plus if you’re cornered you make some noise to make the enemy think you’re not in apathy or to make them think you have a gameplan. DM has no gameplan, he’s just waiting for enough people to cognite that he can’t do anything. I believe it’s intentional confusion and noise with no significance.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dox
“Personal information about people on the Internet, often including real name, known aliases, address, phone number, SSN, credit card number, etc.”
“Someone dropped Bob’s dox and the next day, ten pizzas and three tow trucks showed up at his house.”
(LoL @ pizzas…apparently a common prank.)

How does the COS do that? If you know, you should tell the proper authorities (not sure who they would be) and set up a sting. I have to imagine it isn’t legal to do that (or is against the policy of the travel agent biz). It should be easy to determine who retrieved the record.

Wednesday morning update: Mosey’s work place was phoned by the same Kirgen voiced caller over night. The message left at reception for Monique, “Tell your husband he’s a cunt.” Now, those who worked with Miscavige closely will say that is a dead give away. The consensus here seems to think it is Miscavige trying to sound like Anonymous. Maybe it is Anonymous trying to sound like Miscavige? Or maybe they are birds of a feather, “SIDES.”

Phone calls at work sound like DM. Most anons aren’t that dumb, as calling at work and verbally comparing one’s husband to female genitalia is clearly asking for legal action. I don’t know any anons with an unlimited budget for lawyers, but I know a “church” that fits that description.

Birds of a feather? Nope. The expression “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” isn’t always true. The Church opposes you for entirely different reasons than anons do.

vicious beyond vicious. And soooooooooo desperate.
DM is about to go down in a blaze of glory. Panorama the beginning of the end.
This isn’t just about you going out of town Marty.
This is the death rattle. It’s dirty and disgusting and it will probably get worse as the creature faces his own mortality.
Mosey – sorry you had to go through that disgusting display of cowardice.

We all accept the Co$ abuses are unacceptable. It’s easy for people who’ve suffered these abuses to condemn the whole thing. Although I’ve only experienced the negative side of scientology, I can see that there could be something really valuable in the auditing process. I’ve been involved with spiritual direction for a long time, and auditing seems similar in some ways to that. Whereas psychiatry, psychotherapy, and counselling try to make dysfunctional people functional, spiritual direction and I suspect auditing (when it is done with love and responsibly) are about making functional people more functional.

Marty, next time you go see your accountant drive across the bridge, go into lower Seabrook, and stop and have a meal at the Crab Shack and a drink at Maribelle’s if they’re still there. I admire your courage – wish I could pay for your drink!

Phone calls at work sound like DM. Most anons aren’t that dumb, as calling at work and verbally comparing one’s husband to female genitalia is clearly asking for legal action. I don’t know any anons with an unlimited budget for lawyers, but I know a “church” that fits that description.

Birds of a feather? Nope. The expression “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” isn’t always true. The Church opposes you for entirely different reasons than anons do. And not all anons disagree with you, Marty.

Anon is known to wrap up their trolls within trolls. You gotta look better and deeper. /b/ knows what they are doing. They are cracking up right now at all of you thinking it is OSA or DM. Believe me, the game goes deeper.

“Wallace” – how many other sockpuppet ID’s do you manage on behalf of OSA’s sadly undermanned Internet Black Ops department ?

Your PR attack response to Alanzo’s comment earlier on this thread is a dead give away as to your intentions, bub. Can’t have Alan Stanfield getting friendly or at least tolerant with Marty Rathbun, eh?

This remark is very telling, also. Can’t have Anonymous and Marty Rathbun coexisting peacefully, eh?

Third Party actions don’t work very well on the blogs and forums out in the open where everyone can see them, you poor dear. Most of the readership here are well trained in this subject – probably better than you were, too. Even Anonymous has a clue about this sort of crap since you folks have done too much of it, for too long.

One day, you too may be free. We’ll still be here for you when your midget master is wearing prison stripes and the whole ponderous edifice that is C of $ implodes.

Another argument that it’s OSA is that there is a decades long pattern of doing ridiculous, offensive acts like that (which is why the word Scientology is tainted for the next decades). The is no culture within Anonymous that such operations are either funny nor acceptable, much less a pattern of executing them.

Marty, was it ever found out who hacked into your site 8-10 months ago? That seems like a very similar operation.

I know quite a number of Anon, and this is just not lulzy enough. Sounds like a 3P attempt by a midget with nothing better to do than to drink Scotch and annoy Marty. Now, if it were a pizza with the toppings shaped in a Guy Fawkes mask with a photo of Marty’s expression next to it, that might just be lulz-worthy, but still, I doubt Anonymous is behind this one. The pre-flight knowledge is a dead giveaway in itself. Why would Anon even bother? Puleeze.

We are less than a week away from the Panorama Special, immediately after it goes on air the general public will be hitting the internet with great curiosity, unlike 2007, this time the net is packed with information and sites critical of the CO$. It is a one shot deal, maybe 48hrs of the greatest activity from a curious and naïve public.
The CO$ (DM & CO NOT INDEPENDANTS!!) will do anything to ‘invalidate’, crash or otherwise to project an image that the CO$ critics are “waifs and strays, criminals who argue amongst themselves and are unreliable”.
We must stay ‘clean’ friendly and cohesive for the next couple of weeks!!!
DON’T LET THE CO$ CAUSE US﻿ TO BLOW THE BEST SHOT OF EXPOSING THEM IN THEIR HISTORY.!!

I was with you right up until you said…”We must stay ‘clean’ friendly and cohesive for the next couple of weeks!!!”

Umm… I don’t know about you but I was planing to communicate in most any fashion that I saw fit. If Marty doesn’t want to post what I say then he has the right to vet it. I don’t think one need go out of valence on this thing.

The tone of this blog is determined by those who communicate on it. This particular post has brought out quite a different set of posters and an obvious change in tone. Those who know the tech of such things will handle as they see fit and will likely “move on up a little higher”. Those who do not know the tech or will not use it or are using it for a different purpose will probably not get to experience that.

This first struck me while on the BC. I was watching the 1960’s film from Saint Hill where Ron introduced the Bridge to Total Freedom.

It struck me that, prior to that, there was NO BRIDGE. I tried to imagine a Scientology with no Bridge.

It is a completely different animal. As an auditor, as a pc, as an administrator of a group or org – it is a completely different thing than we have today.

And so, thinking about this I had to ask: Is it really possible to have one standard route to spiritual freedom for all individuals? Where did this model come from? Henry Ford, and his factory assembly line method of mass production – that’s where.

That’s a great model for making money, but can it ever be a route to spiritual freedom for all individuals?

In the 1st Scientology, there was no Bridge to Total Freedom. And Ron wrote a lot about independent thought. After he introduced the Bridge to Total Freedom, he quit talking about that stuff. He set up the Sea Org, ethics, offenses and penalties, etc.

I thought that might be a good idea for Marty’s Independent thought post.

I think you made a quantam leap from a standard progression up a Bridge to Henry Ford and a factory. Really, I recommend Ken Wilbur. Here is a guy that took the precise opposite approach to LRH. He went out looking for common denominators that worked, and kept amassing them and studying them, and came to the conclusion that spiritual enlightment can be achieve in no other manner than a progressive gradient. He did not profer a Bridge, but he make a pretty strong case that one is really required – and that those who approached spiritual enlightment successfully did it upon the concept of a “ladder.”

There is way too much “warring” mentality among many (not all, of course) Scientologists, especially church Scientologists.

This “us” against “them” thought process is not the way to peaceful resolution. It doesn’t encourage compassion, empathy, and integration. We’re all together in this life game on Earth.

Marty’s separate blog on “Integrate or Disentigrate” was spot on, and the result of his posting it drastically changed my life for the better and is changing my communication style. I can never thank him enough for that.

Realize that some Scientologists coming to Marty’s blog are still decompressing from the drama they just lived through within the CofS totalitarian group. So it’s very likely they may be dragging some remnants of their stultification of thinking over here and not realizing it. Just give it more time. They will come through.

It wasn’t actual authentic Scientology that “made” them this way.

If you have the technology of the power to empower somebody’s ability, you equally have the power to use that same technology to use it in a dark way to make people blind and stupid.

This is called Reverse Scientology, which was used on many Scientologists arriving here, and is still currently being used on CofS church Scientologists, with them not aware of it.

I’ve seen your point made many times, and there is a lot of merit to it.

I think that a free-thinking Scientologist, one who practices completely independent thought – as Marty’s post is all about – has a very treacherous job.

Because on the one hand, Scientology is a philosophy that is offered to solve all your problems for you. This philosophy even offers you a new identity to become: a “Scientologist”.

Yet on the other hand, life is infinite. So how could any philosophy capable of being written down (something so finite) solve all your problems for you?

Throughout human history, mankind has adopted ideologies to do their thinking for them, to solve all their problems. This is a primary mistake that humans make. L Ron Hubbard, in the 1st Scientology, continually talked about this problem, and how he did not want black and white thinkers, or “us vs. them” thinking.

If that is so, then how could there be so many Scientologists around who think that way?

I’ll tell you how: they were punished by other Scientologists whenever they voiced an independent thought, or took an original action.

Why must everything be either or? My way or the highway? You’re either with us or against us? Alanzo, that’s where you comm keeps coming from and you attribute it Scientology. But, it ain’t as-ising with you. I suggest you move up a little higher on the know to mystery scale, like say Not Know, and see if you don’t become a little happier, for at least a spell.

“I’ll tell you how: they were punished by other Scientologists whenever they voiced an independent thought, or took an original action.

That’s how.

Was that just David Miscavige?

Or was that Scientology itself?”

Alanzo,

IMO, there is no either/or. Ultimately, it was self doing to SELF! lol.

I can really only speak for myself. For me, it’s certainly not Scientology itself. I don’t hold the subject responsible. The actual tech of “knowing how to know” has done nothing but expand my viewpoint, and help me become a better individual for it.

That, of course, is it’s literal meaning. But I never really in truly got that before. New doors have opened to me regarding knowing what actual Scientology is. It has been quite liberating.

In all honesty, I can’t even hold David Miscavage responsible for what he did to me, either, … no matter how many overts he has on the science itself (if it’s precise tech with predictable results, it IS a science), and me and the rest of the people studying the science.

I met many Scientologists who truly want a better world but there were also many others who were no Scientologists who gave a damn on ethics. They “worked” in the orgs as staff members, volunteers or public and often learned to speak our language but they marched to a very different drum than those amiable Scientologists who worked for a better world and who worked on bettering their characters.

Harassing never was a part of LRH’s Scientology. Ethics means everything to LRH-Scientologists. Somebody who doesn’t understand this is no Scientologist.

I’d say that many Anonymous don’t like Marty or Mike but their top target is DM. If C of S would be no longer, they probably would go after M&M.

The harassment might come very well from INT but done by Miscavians rather than Scientologists.

Marty and Mike, you talked a lot to Miscavige. Do you remember speeches that gave him away as being no Scientologist? I mean this rather in understanding of the religion. He has learned to use our language and abbreviations but that doesn’t mean he is a Scientologist.

By the way, my “old me” would have accepted your invitation to try to “kick butt” over at the wwp forum to seek “justice” for how I was treated by the “a**holes” over there.

However, my new interest is in practicing the discovery of the real need(s) in an individual who may be throwing a fit of rage (of blame, shame, or guilt) at others, and read through their soul with compassion, and communicate back to them with nonviolent communication.

Learning how is taking some serious descipline and practice. But I’m learning how, and it is a fun challenge for me to try to get good.

I’m tired of this “enemy” attitude of us versus them. It dominates the entire planet. That attitude surely isn’t an “integrate” attitude, nor is it conducive to promoting compassion, which is something I’m trying hard to work on and overcome my old inculcated training since childhood, not just from the CofS cultural indoctrination.

It’s like I’m writing new software for my life, and then rebooting so the new and better software runs smoother and more effective. 🙂

However, I don’t appreciate Ron’s uncompassionate view in the full context of the Policy Letter where he wrote this ….

“Well, a cleared cannibal is still only a cleared cannibal so who
needs them?

I’d rather solve the problems of those who were decent to us. We didn’t put them in the shape they’re in. That’s their problem.”

Even though I extremely appreciate the Scientology Tech that LRH worked so amazingly hard to sort out and compile into something workable, he did have some anger issues (IMO) which got reflected into his Policy Letters, and then reactively reinforced by unthinking Staff action who thought, “Everything Ron’s says is sacrosanct or inviolable.”

(This was hard for me to come to terms with because I’ve seen him held up as a virtually “perfect” being. Embarassingly, I use do that! Now I know better. He was human, just like me and thou. :))

I know now that I’m deinculcated enough to where I can evaluate LRH data on my own, and choose what is true for me, including my own choice of attitudes and compassion (not Ron’s), and not just behave like an mirrored automaton (valence) of Ron, of which I’ve seen too much of that.

That independence of thought is what I believe Ron would have wanted, too … once one really gets to really know the dude, through a lot of writing and listening to many tapes, they KNOW this is what he would have wanted. Perhaps contrary to the beliefs of a many.

I like the Integrate attitude or strive to Harmony in you. reminds me of the longtime dutch tradition of religious tolerance going back to our Father of our Fatherland (by lack of a better translation) William of Orange.

“William of Orange was an ambitious nobleman who grew into a rebel leader and was later honoured as the “father of the country”, as the founder of a new Dutch state. He himself had never envisaged the emergence of an independent state.”

Is this the same William of Orange (also known as William the Silent) who was assassinated a few years after his rebellion, shot in the chest at close range by someone he trusted who really wanted the 25,000 crown bounty? They certainly seemed to have dealt with Gerard the assassin creatively:

“The magistrates sentenced that the right hand of Gérard should be burned off with a red-hot iron, that his flesh should be torn from his bones with pincers in six different places, that he should be quartered and disemboweled alive, that his heart should be torn from his bosom and flung in his face, and that, finally, his head should be cut off.”

Why yes it is. He used to listen alot to the others going back and forth in debate before he finnaly spoke on subjects. Hence silent.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_I_of_Orange
“Gérard was caught before he could flee Delft, and imprisoned. He was tortured before his trial on 13 July, where he was sentenced to be brutally — even by the standards of that time — killed.”

If you read up about him you will notice that he was being rebellious long before 1580 the year he was declared an outlaw. He financed a lot of it 😉 behind the scenes but in fact everybody knew he just had never been caught in the act so to speak.

We have a lot more allies working on bringing peace to Earth, than I ever imagined before. Scientologists are not alone on this project. Thankfully, there’s some effective help going on from non-Scientologists, too.

Ironically, this is usually said sternly out of anger! (or no empathy) … the very thing one Staff member is accusing the other Staff member of doing! lol.

Of course, this “thought stops” natural human emotion, or at least attempts to. What really happens is the emotion stays covered up inside, boiling and infesting into hostility (covert or overt).

The poor person told this now has to try to cover up their emotions, again, feelings that are real to them with the need to be expressed.

This emotion cover-up becomes habit, and pretty soon one has an entire culture of apparent non-emotional … even robotic human beings, at least that what it appears on the outside. But inside, their emotions are festering building up more charge.

It is completely unnatural to hide one’s feelings. Surely, it’s suppressive to make one do so.

That one may not know how to control their emotions positively is another thing altogether.

One is told, “No H E & R on post!” angrily at them. Yet there is no attempt to help the other, in a compassionate way, to train one on how to deal with their feelings (emotions).

My big recent cognition lately is that a lacuna in Scientology, the subject, misses training people how to positively and compassionately deal with their own negative emotions in a way which benefits everybody.

As long as we’re human, and as long as there are problems, there will ALWAYS be emotions and feelings. I don’t care how OT one gets.

I doubt I’ll ever appreciate a world WITHOUT emotions, anyway. Because I love positive emotion. But if we’re to have positive emotion, then there also has to be its dichotomy to go with it.

But we can learn how to deal with negative feelings in a positive way that empowers everybody, including self.

That Tech is in existance now. However unfortunate, I don’t see it in Scientology Tech. If it was, there would be no vulture culture in the CofM, and we would not see rampant robotism and no empathy.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but standard application of Scientology tech does not suppress emotion. It expands the capacity for emotion (and empathy). Take a look at DMSMH under attributes of Clear. The higher you go, the more your emotions are freed up, able to cover a much wider range and volume of emotional tones. I have seen this happen to the many people I have audited over the course of my auditing career.

Caveat: this assumes standard tech was applied, not some variant or misapplication.

As to “no case on post”, this is shorthand for the policy used by most of the world’s workplace: “when at work, act like a professional”.

It is definitely frowned upon to run around displaying negative emotions in the workplace. I don’t see a problem with this demand or code of conduct, in the workplace – be it the SO or Yahoo.

Having said that, any company or CEO or HR person worth their salt would, seeing an upset employee, pull them into an office, find out what was wrong and try to help the person through it. But companies vary greatly in how they handle staff upsets. Some are much more caring than others.

If I have any complaint about what I observed in the Scientology “workplaces” I frequented over the years, it was that public displays of anger on the part of senior terminals, directed at subordinates, were tolerated. At old ASHO over on Temple Street in LA, the exec offices were just off the very large BC courseroom. Often, students could hear screaming and yelling coming from that area, with the CO often berating someone lower down on the totem pole.

We would probably agree all day long about the MIS-handling of Scientology staff members (and sometimes public), leading to unhealthy suppression of emotion. We probably also would find ourselves in agreement on the proposition that this mishandling, over time, added up to a sort of “corporate culture” that was abusive in many respects.

But to me, the real question is: why did it take so long for Scientologists (including me) to stand up and say “this is NOT Scientology”, and demand change?

Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I really appreciate you taking your time to write.

We’re totally on the same page, believe it or not. lol. I find nothing you wrote that I disagree with.

Perhaps I didn’t make myself as clear as I could have …

You wrote, “I hate to sound like a broken record, but standard application of Scientology tech does not suppress emotion. It expands the capacity for emotion (and empathy).”

So very true! I’m not sure (if)/ where you got the idea that I implied that Scientology Tech suppresses emotion to “argue” and expound that it does not. That surely wasn’t my argument. Perhaps you were not writing that in response to me, but just to make clear to other readers in case there was any confusion on that issue.

That Scientology expands the capacity for emotion means all the more necessity to learn how to handle that emotion in a positive way that doesn’t suppress the environment. Emotion is powerful. And to be enabled with more of it can be dangerous to others if not trained in how to use it for the benefit of oneself and others.

It is definitely frowned upon to run around displaying negative emotions in the workplace. I don’t see a problem with this demand or code of conduct, in the workplace – be it the SO or Yahoo.

Of course. But the reality is that people are human … no matter where they are, and they are going to be emotional at one time or another, anywhere.

The challenge I’m advocating is in teaching HOW to deal with those personal emotions so they result in positivity, not more drama for oneself and those around them.

Unfortunately, Scientology Tech does not teach that anywhere I’ve looked.

Nonviolent communications tech teaches how to deal with negative emotions so everybody wins … so the outcome is positive resulting in more compassion with each other and peace. But unless one has studied this, they won’t know this is fact or even where I’m coming from.

Had Scientology staff had and applied this tech, things would not be the way they are today in the CofS. I see that now after studying it. Also, David Miscavage isn’t the only reason things went by the boards.

I was pointing out a lacuna in Scientology Tech. I’m sure this is something that may get not-ised by a few. That’s OK. All I can do is to try to be a living example of what that missing tech is. It’s my own personal cognition and I certainly don’t expect others to have it.

But I do know now (for me) that the gap is now filled, thankfully. It was a missing ingredient for ME and my life. So I know it’s going to be a lacuna for others, too. They just don’t know it yet.

Obviously, and I think most can agree on this point, Scientology isn’t the “only one” when it comes beneficial self-improvement techniques.

Though I agree that Scientology is the most expansive self-improvement action of all, it still has knowledge and training that’s still missing regarding the area of handling all emotions positively, so one doen’t have a negative impact on themselves and others around them.

Don’t ask me WHY there is that lacuna in Scientology. I just know it is. Perhaps Ron just didn’t have the time to get to it all. But then again, that’s a hell of a lot to ask from just ONE man to do EVERYTHING in research on self improvement! lol.

I’m not surprised if I get some ridging on this. But it’s understandable if one isn’t aware of exactly what the nonviolent communication tech is.

In any case, I’m having huge wins on it, and I’m liking myself much better for it. 🙂

Wayne, thanks very much for your reply and clarifications. I think I understand better where you are coming from. It’s a very interesting subject to debate.

Just to address the subject a bit more:

Early in my auditor training, I gained the ability (through TR0 drills) to assume a positive, causative viewpoint if I chose to, and by so doing, help bring peace and calmness to an enturbulated environment.

Prior to that training, I did not have the choice. I would have just reacted most of the time.

Don’t get me wrong – there have been plenty of times when I failed to exercise this ability (sometimes miserably). But it was an ability gained through Scientology training, whether I exercised it correctly all the time or not.

Take an example of being in a situation where someone else is upset or very emotional – towards me or someone else. How should I deal with that? Respond in anger, or dramatize back, myself? Or, assume by choice an exterior, calm viewpoint, so as to help destimulate the angry person or enturbulated area around me?

Auditor training – specifically TRs – taught me precisely “HOW to deal with those personal emotions so they result in positivity, not more drama for oneself and those around them”. (quoted part from you).

These skills are meant to be used in LIFE situations, not just the auditing room. The best auditors are extremely adept at creating calmer environments around themselves, using their abilities gained through training to spread harmony, tranquility, calm, peace.

To me, that’s the best of Scientology. I think it’s safe to say, if everyone was a properly trained, interned auditor, we would have peace on Earth. (Don’t laugh – I know it sounds airy-fairy, but I believe it’s true).

You say “Unfortunately, Scientology Tech does not teach that anywhere I’ve looked.”

Is it possible you have overlooked or forgotten some of the ways that auditor training brings about the very abilities and effects you desire?

Regardless, you are very thoughtful, communicate your ideas well, and it is a pleasure interchanging ideas and opinions with you. Hopefully there will be opportunities for more.

I appreciate your understanding and beautiful civility and empathy. Those are innate qualities in each individual. They just need to be brought out more, and hopefully sooner than later.

Of all people I know, correctlly trained Auditors do display this compassionate quality. When one listens to such spiritual travail of others, how can one not have anything but empathy for what they hear?

With enough hours in the chair, I believe this quality naturally evolves for the 1rst dynamic, for sure.

What I’m talking about is a radical and fast shift of viewpoint within a couple hours of training. This is what happened to me with learning the subject of nonviolent communication.

The idea isn’t to overcome a negative emotion, but to use that natural emotion to discover “what is alive in us”, and create a better condition from that, not just TRO it.

I understand how my viewpoint may be difficult to duplicate unless one gets trained in this too. It’s very specific training.

It’s like me trying to get across the viewpoint of what good Scientology auditing is like to a non-Scientoloigst without them actually experiencing it for themselves. There’s a world of difference between just hearing about it, and doing it.

After doing Scientology, there is a drastic reality shift in the understanding of the goodness of Scientology. The same goes for nonviolent communication tech.

What flabbergasted me was the speed in which nonviolent communication tech shifted my viewpoint. Of course, I understand that this is just a microcosm of a subject compared to expansiveness of Scientology. From my viewpoint, it’s a sub subject of Scientology … the science of knowing how to know. (Grade O is also a wonderful sub subject of Scientology, too.)

Nonviolent communication tech is a subject of knowing how to know how to utilize your emotions, including negative ones, to create positive gain for oneself and for others, and resolve problems.

Scientology has no organized exact specifics on how to do this, as far as I’ve found. There is no course on the subject of compassionate communication. It’s not specifically addressed, nor trained on.

That’s why I say that this small part (though extremely important) is a lacuna in Scientology. I see it as THE missing ingredient in comm when I look at the comm of many Scientologists. I know their comm would drastically change for the better in a peaceful way if they were trained in this, just like I believe my own is changing now, without the many, many hours in the chair delivering Standard auditing.

Of course, not everybody is going to be an Auditor, and even if that were the case, it would take way too long to wait for an eventual natural empathic evolution.

We need Peace now, and training in nonviolent communication is the fastest way towards this that I’ve discovered to date. Because it can be learned in 2 hours, with a radical shift of viewpoint for the better, IMO.

The concept of peace on Earth is not airy-fairy to me at all, either, especially with what I know now about compassionate communication, it is much easier for me to envision Peace as a realistic vision for the future.

Now I hope I can “lead” by showing a good example of it, and be the change I want to see happen. That is my work in progress. 🙂

It’s such a pleasure interchanging ideas and opinions with you, too, Publius. Thank you for the opportunity.

Publius~My answer was that lacuna is filled with Pro TRs and training.
But I do see where it appears to be…when the “no case on post” reference is used suppressively, not allowing comm to flow. The ones who ran this on me and others were the least trained. When my juniors were upset, we communicated to dissolve that upset at least to a reasonable level.
Your statement was NOT airy-fairy!
And Wayne, I can see the process you’re doing can work too.

Correct. It does. It’s just education and practice and more practice which is what I’m still working on. It’s completely changed the way I think about how to communicate.

Here’s my take on it; If there was not a lucuna in Scientology, then there would be no problem regarding it today. The subject of Scientology would be sailing smoothly in CofS. But it’s not, and this is the most obvious point I see.

A gargantuan outpoint I see in the CofS is the lack of empathy or compassion.

I hardly hold David Miscavage solely responsible for this lack of compassionate comm (nonviolent communication) in the Church of Scientology. Though, no doubt, he has contributed to making it a lot worse.

But there is not specific training in CoS (or Scientology) which gives emphasis on the subject matter and clearly talks about compassionate communication … empathic communication or nonviolent communication (as put by Marshall Rosenberg).

It is not beyond my scope of thinking a possibility that Ron may have missed a few things. This is where I see many Scientologists ridge at just the thought of that idea, and so they don’t completely confront the possibility.

The unfortunate incidents regarding his family may be an indicator. The anger and uncompassionate tone of a few Policies are another indicator. The militant persona of the Sea Org are another.

I always keep in mind he’s just a man. An absolutely BRILLIANT one, but still a man who could have overlooked something. This doesn’t mean I endorse changing existing workable tech, no way! As long as it works great without abuse is what matters to me.

To me, there’s something wrong if an idea for improvement is shunned and discourged when something is not working as well as it should.

This especially goes for Policy which has to be mallable as growth occurs, and societal changes.

For example, if the CofS is still using Les Dane for sales training, they are in the dark ages regarding sales tech, and that’s because Ron recommended it. Therein is the problem, they’re robotic about it being the “only one”.

Now if Ron were here to see the “Sales Bible” by Jeffrey H. Gitomer (May 6, 2008 Edition), Ron would readily see that this is much better, and much more up to date, and to use that instead.

But Ron is not here to think for others. It hasn’t occurred to many that they should think for themselves. If they KNEW and thought with the data of Les Dane, and then they learned the data in the “Sales Bible”, and were able to think with THAT data, it would become so obvious how much better the latter is.

(I take big issue with stultified thinking and the inability to think with data, and where the data itself becomes the controlling mechanism.)

I gave the above example to show the POSSIBILITY of missing data in Scientology.

I believe many Scientologists have the incorrect concept inculcated in them (by CofS) on what IS Scientology, the subject and science.

Scientology is the expansive subject of the science of KNOWING HOW TO KNOW. That covers a lot of territory.

That would even cover the subject of knowing how to know how to use emotions (including negative ones) positively in communication. It would cover compassionate communication, which is nonviolent communication.

So the subject of knowing how to know how to use nonviolent communication is NATURALLY already Scientology … even though the discoverer (Marshall Rosenberg) of this part of knowing how to know doesn’t realize it.

Though Isaac Newton made discoveries in Physics, he didn’t INVENT physics. He expanded on it. Einstein expanded Physics even more.

Well, the same is true with Ron and Scientology. Ron made discoveries that were not covered anywhere else. So a new science was born which he named … Scientology. But he did NOT “invent” Scientology. It was always there, just not noticed. Same as physics.

If we’re going to acknowledge that Scientology, a subject, is just as real as Physics, a subject, then it has to be naturally a subject that can be expanded upon, just like Physics.

Turning it into a copyrighted religion froze Scientology’s development in time after Ron died. To put the responsibility of R&D on just Ron’s head for a real subject that is even MORE expansive than Physics, to me, is utterly insane. Yet that is what happened.

For Scientology to flourish and prosper, it has to be a free and open subject for thinking with, and open for potential further development. The test is always workability. Always. It could be inspected and validated by the scientific community for third party, unbiased evalution like any science. Any science should be able to and SHOULD stand up to validation.

Now I know what I’m saying here could be considered heresy to a few here. But that’s only for Scientology AS a religion. But if Scientology is, in fact, an actual science (which root word, the name Scientology comes from), then IT’S A SCIENCE of which the bounds of knowledge should be further pushed outward.

Science should never go stale. What if Isaac Newton said, “This is ALL there is to know about Physics, and there should be no further development of it because I already know it all. I’m copyrighting Physics.”

What kind of scientist or real science would that be?

The real expansive science of Scientology … “knowing how to know” should NEVER be chained.

I’m willing to bet if one did an experiment of thinking of the subject as “knowing how to know” (instead of using the word “Scientology” in their mind), some barriers could be passed through and cognitions could more easily abound.

Just that simple process did it for me. That was “my” little process of “knowing how to know”, which helped me “know how to know” more.

All I did was replace the charged word “Scientology” with “knowing how to know.” One of the cognitions I had was how charged the word “Scientology” is for me. I imagine it is for others, too.

In my universe, I was using this tiny little process of word replacement to further expand my “knowing how to know”. Ironically, this process IS part of “knowing how to know”. It has to be, it resulted in more knowing.

Did I invent some new “knowing how to know”?

No. I just discovered a tiny piece of it on my own. However little piece, I still discovered this process on my own without aid. I havent’ read any data from anywhere to try this, I just adventured to try it, and it worked for me.

I believe anybody can come up with their own “know how to know” process, too. The acid test of its workability is …

Do you know more from the result of the “know how to know more” process?

For me to get past the barrier of the guilt of “squirrelling”, I had to do this little “trick” of word change from “Scientology” to the phrase “knowing how to know.”

Or else I felt I would be “disobeying” the final, absolute, ultimate authority of an apparent “Supreme Being” (I thought), one whom I could never know more than he.

Of course, this made me cognite on the ridiculousness of this suppressive thought I was putting myself under.

Barriers went down for me, and I moved on up a little higher towards Freedom.

Hey, this can be the NEW Scientology. If you are on course and you hear the ED screaming, after course you visit him and remind him that it is not OK even if LRH said that “screaming keeps ships off rocks”. What a justifier. The rocks are almost always only in the mind of the screamer. People in normal society do not do such things, and succeed very well.

As soon as one suppresses or ignores their feelings (emotions), they lose their own aliveness (what’s alive in them) at that moment. They fly south and become more deadened … moving toward spiritual death.

It’s especially cruel to train somebody to do that to themselves.

In Scientologese, they go down the tone scale, usually into Covert Hostility by stultifying and inhibiting the expression of their own emotions. Or they continue south to Apathy where they robotically obey without thought or consequence.

Prior to getting a drink down my neck and having a purch on my favou-rit- ual gargoyle to read over your annotaters of today on my new recruits laptop. Have you considered poltergeist as the culprit? After all that was what happened to my Count at the Castle that turned him nosferatu- ” bit” like Adam and Eves story but of the undead side of existence.

Can the “angered commenters” simply let Marty say what happened and understand what he said, for crying out lout?

I understand that several Anons commenting today are saying “It’s not true! It couldn’t be the Anons” as it would be (paraphrased) against their “code”. Hello, does anyone know what every other Anons does?

It sounds exactly like the c of m/OSA (“Scientologists” and “us” for that matter – when we were still in the c of m) shouting “It ain’t true! Scientologists would never do that!” as it is (paraphrased) against our “code”. Heck, the vast majority of “us” knew jack shit what actually happened most of the time and we still defended it anyway.

Please don’t construe this to mean “it was the Anons”. Do I know who it was? How on earth would I? I don’t! And Marty said so too but considers it irrelevant at this point (should he find out, I’m sure he’ll post it).

It’s more an appeal to actually engage in sensible and constructive communication rather than defending Marty (man, I’m surprised too, to find out what he did).

I wish to draw your attention to this: Can somebody see a difference in TONE LEVEL between Marty’s blog and the Anon Websites and the C of M attack sites (Freedom etc.) and can anybody see any similarities between the latter two? (To me, Jeff, Larry and a few others communicate differently – they don’t share the same view as Marty but communicate in a civil way).

The Anon sites and the Freedom mag are about as hateful and one-sided slander as the official C of M site is boring. If I missed some Anon site that is different, Anons, please post the link and if I missed a constructive C of M site dealing sensibly with criticism, OSA people, please post the link too.

Samuel
————-
PS (on a “different subject” from my earlier comment): Marty – I understand why you didn’t include a “visitor counter” on this blog – in another comment of yours above you actually said why (at least so I figure).

I hit the key too fast. My last on the blog counters was for you personally and not necessarily for posting on blog. Otherwise all may know what plug ins you use and I don’t know if there are weaknesses in any of these.

DM hired himself as a PI to spy on himself while he posts as an Anon, just to keep the proper supervision in. He then wrote himself up to himself and routed himself to himself so he could handle his own ethics. I understand it has been very difficult for him, but ultimately he wrote a commendation on himself and gave himself a bonus for figuring out how to send an anonymous pizza without getting caught, yet. He then wrote up the whole hat, transcribed and edited it, read it, did the drills, passed and gave himself a certificate and another secret promotion after enduring a rigorous solo-severe-reality-adjustment for not already having done all this earlier. He’s now finishing his internship for his permanent gold seal, in between always being 10,000 miles away from himself on purpose so he can remain fabian. His dog signed off on the checksheet, so it’s all on (his) policy.

Yeah, but there is a difference, because WWP is uncensored. Anyone can sign up and post whatever he wants, whereas the Co$’ attack sites are censored and they let only their own OSA bots post there.
Naturally any board that is uncensored will also have “lowtone” threads. Really, check out ANY other site on the internet, where uncensored discussion is allowed and you will notice the same phenomenom.
So your identification of Anonymous with Miscavige isn’t quite valid.

I didn’t censor, I moderated as off topic and diversionary. People are here for conversations with a modicum of decency. They are quite aware of your forums and if they wish to go there they do and will.

I don’t know about the mod tool of wordpress. But you specifically requested examples for “uptone threads”. Those were the most current ones I found at that point. John Peeler dug out a much better example though, so I am happy 🙂

They hate the criminal nature of the present day CofS. They hate that the Cofs destroys families, they hate that the CofS does all in its power to stifle any criticism, they hate that the CofS has a ‘fair game’ policy and uses it to justify destruction of individuals, they hate that the CofS lies and distorts what it does, that it pretends to be a religion when it really a con job to get money via the IAS, etc., which is all it appears to be these days.

There is a long list of things the CofS does which are hateful!

And, given that the average anon is only aware of the criminal activites of the CofS, they don’t look too kindly on the subjects themselves. How could such human degredation come out of anything worthwhile? Obviously the subject is as corrupt as is the organization that pushes it!

To lable anons a ‘hate group’ serves no purpose, and is misleading.

A significant number of the posts and comments here, on this blog, demonstrate a ‘hatred’ on the exact same subjects and for the exact same reasons as do the anons!

To attempt to A=A anons with DM is way off base is inaccurate, utterly inaccurate, and misleading to the extreme.

DM runs his hate for his reasons, to control, to destroy opposition, whatever.

Anon voices it’s objections for the purpose of stopping DM and his minions from doing what they do!

Comparing them, their intentions, is like comparing a fresh breeze with an out-house. Because you stand up and are willing to harm a criminal in order to stop that person from harming others, doesn’t mean what you do is the same.

When the anons protest, they are civil, in your face, yes, forcing the sheep to look, but they rarely attack the subject, they concentrate their protests on the crimes. There are always exceptions, but they are notewothy by their very few occurances.

If there is any real hope of change in the CofS, it will come about because anon did what it did, broke open the walls and let the world see what is hiding behind them, made is safe to speak out because no one is alone any more.

“And, given that the average anon is only aware of the criminal activites of the CofS, they don’t look too kindly on the subjects themselves. How could such human degredation come out of anything worthwhile? Obviously the subject is as corrupt as is the organization that pushes it!”

I’m no Bible thumper, but this verse as obvious wisdom to me.

Mathew: 7:20 “By their fruits then surely ye shall know them.”

Bobo, you have a valid point about the apparency. It is no wonder why Anon believes that. I really do understand them.

The Church of Scientology (management) has created virtually irreparable damage to the reputation of the subject of Scientology in the publics’ mind.

They’ve produced a bunch of bad products (fruits). If it were a regular business, they would have already been out of business a long time ago. No question about it, IMO.

This ugly (not just bad) reputation is tough for a Scientologist to confront, including me! Because it’s so saddening and devasting to us to have seen this happen.

I’ve personally been through grief and apathy over the disrepute of the subject.

Why? Because I know, and other non-robotic trained Scientologists KNOW too, that if they apply standard TECH (not admin) in a non-suppressive environment, one gets happy people who are better for it.

Of course, most non-Scientologists will never really know that to be able to believe it or properly evaluate the tech through the personal experience of doing it, and that too, is sad because they don’t realize what they’re missing and how much it can help them live life.

It’s painful to see that even the desire to LOOK has been mostly destroyed. That’s why I’ve thought, more than a few times, that the subject should be renamed so it’s not carrying all the baggage of the past.

IMO, the real Tech would move forward faster if this was done. But I don’t foresee a renaming ever, ever happening.

Wayne~I felt the same way and still get miffed but that’s one reason I love coming here, where people like you give me hope for yes, Scientology, by its given name.
I think Marty’s is showing us that the suppressive acts continue – and I can now NOT be effect of the unknown thanks to that.

“If there is any real hope of change in the CofS, it will come about because anon did what it did, broke open the walls and let the world see what is hiding behind them, made is safe to speak out because no one is alone any more.”

I don’t think they’ve broken open any walls or revealed anything that was not already widely known. Don’t get me wrong, I like those demonstrations. They seem like fun. I like the masks and sometimes the music and dancing is interesting. I like the insouciance. I like to watch the looks on the church members’ faces when they encounter you guys, but I don’t think they have any actual impact. Those church guys hunker down for this stuff. Puts ’em into action. Gives ’em something to get inspired about overcoming. A challenge. They dig it, they probably won’t admit it, but I’ll bet in their head they love the game.

There’s a hell of a lot more corruption in the US government and money circles, it gets revealed all the time, way way way more than this little church thing, and I dare anyone to try to make any dent whatsoever by holding a small demonstration. Or even a really big one. It’ll do nothing. Maybe it could if you could magically get all 300 million Americans to march on Washington with pitchforks and hammers and actually allow a few million to be killed during the coup de tat. But short of that it has no effect. Same with the church or what’s left of it.

On the other hand, when a powerful insider such as Marty kicks open the door and tips over a couple of walls and is backed up by a dozen or two other insiders, and stuff gets revealed that is shocking and abhorrent it generates a media explosion that has snowballed. And people start leaving. And the church toughens up and gets whackier to try to keep people from leaving. And then more people leave because it gets too tough and whacky. And it creates a new opportunity for genuine Scientologists who leave the church, to apply it correctly on their own.

There’s only one thing in my opinion that’ll get the C of S to change. Not lawsuits, not charges, not protests, not bickering, not media attention, none of that. The only that will cause enough of a ground swell for it to change is if this Independent Scientologist thing actually takes off and legitimately grows, gaining a consistent and trusted reputation for helping average individuals get the desired results the technology of Scientology. The possibility of that happening and whether the technology even works or whether or not independents can keep from mucking things up themselves, why that’s a matter of opinion and conclusion by the contemplator. But taking it on the basis that the tech does work and the independents can stay genuine, the results could be far superior to those of the Church, like comparing a Mercedes to a broken down Yugo. I think it’s kinda cool Marty really kick-started the possibility of a refreshingly new alternative to the church’s machinations. There’ve been others who’ve tried but waivered or were destroyed or just stay low.

It’s like if a Vice Prez of the USA, like Dick Cheney for instance, jumped out and started telling the truth about what goes on behind the scenes in D.C. because all of a sudden he got religion or something and wanted to be honest and try to set things right. Cheney on video and in major newspapers telling the truth about all the corruption and swindling and lying and abuse. Wow. That’s an “opinion leader”. Leads opinions in a direction that can lead to actions.

I think you’ll continue to see the official Church of Scientology, with it’s big shiny new buildings, fancy digital presentations and it’s limited following of rich adherents, all steeped in their statuses and enclosed in a giant bubble of protectionism whistling past their own graveyards and continuing way, way into the future, unless their own lack of results are exposed and supplanted by the original intentions of the philosophy carried out in an obviously valuable, acceptable way.

Otherwise, the church boys have the money, the persistence, governmental cooperation, manipulation methods, PR machine, and the people, all fueled by a mixture of genuine intent, the power of extreme zealousness, strong agreements about eternity and forced beliefs that are very hard to break.

But if church members and staff look at the Mercedes… and then at the smoking Yugo… then back at the Mercedes… then back at the smoking Yugo… and they can brush the exhaust fumes aside enough to clearly see the difference between the two, they will either leave or force the church into reviving back from the dead thing that Marty says it has become. I tend to think he’s correct, but Scientology purportedly contains within itself the tech with which to revive the dead.

I’ve personally had enough church to last a lifetime or two or three, so I don’t care one way or the other, really, but I do think that pure Scientology tech, applied properly FOR an individual’s benefit and with their knowing consent, uncorrupted by vested interests, can be very beneficial and should be available for those that desire it.

Sorry about the length and verbosity of some of my posts. There’s an old saying, “If I had more time I’d write you a shorter letter.” I’m working on it.

The main impact of the Anonymous protests, in my opinion, can be seen in:

a) The increased media profile of the Church of Scientology. In January 2008, a line by a fashion writer in Us Weekly magazine – to the effect that Nicole Kidman’s silver outfit repelled Scientologists – resulted in a letter from Kirsty Alley’s lawyer calling for the sacking of the writer. Can you imagine back then the media actually reporting about abuses? Anonymous got publicity for the protests themselves, which got a new generation of journalists READING the more serious information and getting themselves educated. Gradually, the stories changed from being about the protests to being about the reason for the protests. Gradually, the stories became more robust and more revealing of the worst of the abuses. Heck, Marty posted on this very blog Paul Haggis’s letter about how CNN’s story on Anonymous on about May 8, 2008, in which Tommy Davis denied the disconnection policy, was instrumental in him leaving the CoS.

b) Anonymous brought new momentum to former members who had been trying for years to highlight the abuses. Anon showed many former members what could be achieved via the internet. Anonymous caused many former members of the church to look on the internet for the first time, find others in the same or similar boat and connect.

If you don’t see these things, it’s because you joined relevant parts of the internet too late to watch the developments.

Of course, the real and lasting changes will come about because YOU former members make them happen, with the assistance of the media and law enforcement.

This isn’t a pissing contest. So if you want to deny Anonymous had any real impact, so be it. Anonymous is, after all, anonymous. And it doesn’t matter in the end so long as the abuses are stopped.

oh hi there, when I said it wasn’t us, i meant those few of us in the Treehouse, since anyone attempting to vouch for the whole of anonymous would have to be delusional. we were the treehouse who called up marty and left poor ‘James’ finding something to say.. 🙂

btw anon has many ‘Treehouses’ not many of them know exactly of the others existence or howto contact even in an emergency

Sorry to hear you’ve been subject to such sophomoric behavior. Smells like a MissCabbage directed operation to me just as the Sweeney show is about to be aired with Mike at center stage. Lil’ Davey is probably in need of a straight-jacket to keep him from hurting himself as he flails about.

There is going to be a lot more of this deflection of attention over the next 10 days, so be ready for it.

Panorama isn’t the only exose on the CofS about to hit. There are two shows in Canada, on CBC TV, that are also hitting at the abuse.

Tonight, on ‘The Hour’, Paul Haggis is being interviewed for an hour.

On Sunday, at 8 pm, CBC’s ‘The Passionate Eye’, is about the CofS abuses. I suspect that on this show there will be nothing new, maybe some local exCofSers, but the main ‘expose’ is mostly like old news.

The CBC is a poorly managed, gutless, left leaning network which survives on government grants.

I was able to access this by going to Why We Protest (WWP) and clicking on the thread – “Paul Haggis on CBC” 0r something like that.

Which is why I read WWP – they often have interesting info.

I read the new threads which you can tell by the number of responses. Marty has commented about the tone level of the threads and he’s right. The WHOLE thread usually degrades into a shouting swearing match. But, just read for info.

For example: Nancy Cartwright getting sued for her fiances bankruptcy after which sadly he killed himself. AND that the $$ in his business was spent on dmology, rather than fulfilling contracts.

Or — Catherine Moss (of Mad Men fame) is getting a divorce because he husband of 8 months isn’t interested in dmology.

Anonymous (which is Why We Protest) blog is all over news and reports it.

I don’t understand why you do this, Marty. Why do you set these two groups at odds against each other? Especially when you know exactly to whose advantage it works? And how do you reconcile this against your recent promptings toward a spirit of “inclusiveness”? What is your agenda?

Sadly, it is this kind of BS that causes me to lose interest in your little movement — which, of course will be music to Miscavige’s ears.

Did you read The Great Middle Path, the article linked above. That you choose me as source for two groups going against one another demonstrates to me you could use some serious Esto’ing, for the staff member who cannot recognize source (lower case, not Source, but source – that is the cause that creates an effect).

I am convinced that Marty is right about the middle path. Anon and DM are part of the same GPM. When I got declared SP, I didn’t want to disappoint OSA so I joined an Anonymous protest in SF with a big fluorescent pink “Scientology Kills” sign. Was that an overt? I have been thinking about that a lot lately. Yes, I believe it was an overt, because it increased the strength of the enemy. OSA terminals and IAS salesmen used it to extort money from people who were seeking spiritual freedom, and increased the power of those who are trying to suppress real Scientology and help. I also believe that there is nothing one cannot make up the damage for. In this case, I can do this by studying my LRH materials, and supporting the Independent Scientologists.

It has been an interesting hour viewing the comments from today’s blog. Not many would have allowed such diversity. But it does give more reality on those who are in anonymous. They communicated (unlike osa who just throw in random barbs to distract) and some even show mutual respect even when they disagree with you, Marty.

One of the things I most admired about LRH was his ability to rub elbows with people from many different walks of life. I like the way you invite anyone in to the discussion, so long as they behave in a civil manner.

As for the extended disruptions to Mosey’s work. I found that people are very supportive of whistleblowers and a chat with those who need the info tends to garner support and understanding. It can be surprising to those who get caught up in the highjinx of it all. I’m sure this has already crossed your mind, though.

I am unsure whether I can agree with this. You will probably not read the posts with abusive language from anons here because they don’t make it through moderation. What you can take away from reading this and WWP is that the anon folks are a very diverse group of people. And not all share the same opinions or values.

Not many would have allowed such diversity.

Hmm. I find that misleading. The “natter boards” ESMB and WWP allow posting without a moderator approving posts. That doesn’t change the fact that you’re going to get headwind if the majority does not agree. On WWP that can be quite abusive, but it’s not different here except that hostility is more subtle. Right, Jim? 😉

That is not to say you are wrong. To Marty’s credit, he is more liberal in allowing posts than I thought. Marty, the fact you allow people like me to post, even though we clearly do not share the optimistic view of Hubbard, accounts for very much in my book and I am willing to believe you really seek to distance yourself from the abuses that have been and still are committed in the Scientology organisation. And I want to thank you for the work that you are doing in bringing down David Miscavige.

Foremost, I disagree. Whenever the church can do something to try to make anonymous or Marty look bad, they think they gain. It seems to be in the very DNA of Anonymous as a whole to rile stuff up and when they do they think they’ve gained. Indeterminate or not.

I’ve discovered there is no such group as the “whole”. Each person is an individual and can only be held accountable for their own actions.

The WE/THEM (warring) concept of “group as a whole” is a collectivist thinking trap for both individual Scientologists and those individuals who call themselves “Anonymoous”.

It causes warring between false “group beingnesses”, as if the total of the volunteering individuals of the group make up a single beingness and doingness.

For one to preserve and protect one’s own Freedom, Independence, and Free Thought while working with others, one should only do actions out of individual, voluntary cooperation (from of their own heart) with one or more individuals working towards a mutual common goal.

As soon as that individual compassionate cooperation gets subverted into a forced cooperation with threat of punishment, then it turns into tyranny … totalitarianism.

The Church of Scientology degraded into the latter. It’s interesting to look to see HOW that could happen.

I recommend this for a more thorough understanding of collectivist thought and tyranny which is called “The Chasm” (Def: A pronounced difference of opinion, interests, or loyalty)

Not only is the CofS suffering from this debacle, but so is the entire world.

Pay special attention to page 9, THE CHASM: TWO ETHICS THAT DIVIDE THE WESTERN WORLD

The understanding of this information is more appropriate about the debacle (A sudden, disastrous collapse, downfall, or defeat; a rout.) of the Church of Scientology than one may first realize.

Note: G. Edward Griffin uses the term ethics in its proper meaning … the contemplation of optimum survival.

Worldwide with all humankind, including within the CofS, there are two conflicting ethics at work. Once known, the problem is much easier to understand and would actually resolve if truly understood, IMO.

Anonymous is you and me and the whole world it is the human condition. But getting down to it. Anonymous consist of Internet-Enthousiasts who want their Internet unsencored and without to much goverment-interference.

Samuel is correct and the more attention on the entheta, the more this site will go down scale, if even for a day. Therefore the mission gets accomplished…enturbulation is the sole stock and trade of the sp….(whomever it is)

Well Jewel, there sure has been an influx of new names and ideas thrown on here in the last couple of days. Kinda interesting trying to keep track of it all. Made me want to outflow and did my pan-determinism good.

I get the most wonderful visions of ominous looking grey castles, vampires, howling wolves and hunchback doormen when that count guy or lord of the dead or whomever posts. Ha ha ha! I don’t want to encourage him necessarily but he’s a trip! I wish Marty would let me post my satire at least when it gets this crazy. Ha ha ha!

The ancient Chinese proverb states that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” While it may be true that not all Anons subscribe to this view, I believe that it is most likely the dominant one when it comes to Marty and the Independents. This in spite of any differences of opinion or personal likes and/or dislikes.

Keep in mind motive; who presumably benefits the most from harassing Marty? Also, who has a consistent pattern of doing so, especially when he is about to leave town?

Consider for moment the significance of the actions if it was the Church. It would betray their desire to keep these two groups apart. That, in and of itself, is pretty telling.

Hey Mr. Rathbun, I’m sorry this crap happens to you or anyone else for that matter. I’m not Anonymous, but I do support aspects of what they are doing. If you think this is the work of an anon, I would say I highly doubt it. I’ll refer to the first three forum rules of WWP:
Don’t post anything illegal.
Don’t post personal information.
Do not import drama! If you have a problem, deal with it. Do not drag it out for everyone to see.

For all the time I have been on WWP, I haven’t seen your personal information posted and if it were, a moderator would have deleted it. When you look at a crime, motive is usually a mitigating factor. Anyone could buy a voice changing device, so that doesn’t make it Anonymous (but gee, it sure does give the impression, like guilt by association). It could also mean they didn’t want you to recogize their voice (guilty is as guilty does). DM is afraid of you, so I’m sure he would throw up any roadblock possible to deter you from what he knows you can do via law enforcement and connections you have.

Looking at any possible motive a member of Anon would have for harrassing you or your family, I simply don’t see it. Since you are helping remove at least part of the problem, it’s win for Anon. The majority I know simply want the abuse to stop, most don’t care what you believe (at least the majority I’ve spoken with). Yeah, you might get a jerk of a poster sometimes, but I do just the same. And here’s the kicker, how do you know that it’s always Anons posting mean spirited stuff on your blog? As lil Davey sees it, you are both his enemies and it would serve him to keep you both apart.

As I see it, I think DM and people beneath him are trying to build animosity towards Anon from Independents and probably vice-versa. Divide and conquer usually works, unfortunately.

Jessica, you’re right about the rules of WWP. But WWP /= Anonymous. It’s just a message board where Anons and nonAnons post. Many Anons conduct their discussions about Chanology elsewhere, on numerous other boards. Many who post on WWP are not Anons. It’s just not possible to say that all Chanology Anons subscribe to the rules of WWP in all their conduct. Sorry.

Reviewing the blog and the emotion back and forth I’d say that whomever the trouble-makers are, they are accomplishing their purpose if we engage in in-fighting here.

There is good and bad in all of the groups. We all know that.
How about we fight back against the obvious attempts to create upset and unite rather than disperse out into petty arguments?
Pitting us against each other? ! How obvious can the objective be regardless of who did it?
What doesn’t destroy me makes me stronger. That applies to this group too.
Although I’m all for airing out the upsets, suspicions and differences and communicating about it, arguing right now is counter-productive in the face of what could be one of the biggest blows to DM so far.

Something really GOOD is happening! It’s GOOD for ALL of us. We should be celebrating that fact together.

Enturbulating the crap out of Marty and Mosey at this precise moment in time? All manner of covert and overt ops? Trolls? Plants? It’s a given and it’s probably going to escalate over the next week or two so we’d better be ready and we’d better focus on working as a team.

OK. Speech over and sorry – I know it doesn’t apply to everyone but I feel it needs to be said.

Sammy,
I had a night out, with the neighbors and some light conversation. Came back and read through the day’s thread. I gotta say, though as random as can be, it’s really an amazing cultural phenom this here blog. It’s GOOD. Even today’s ping pong match. It’s GOOD.

Personally, thanks to all you wild ass beings out there that pitched in. You, Faust, Anons A to A , and of course me buddies.

Where else could you get such a melange, such a wonderful salad. And in the spirit of Movin On Up a Little Higher. I’d say, take a win everybody.

It was beer and darts. First time for darts. I tried to practice placing anchor/dimension points. I like casting a flyline better. There’s always a chance something will respond and the line goes tight and there’s the weight, head-shakes and 12′ leaps. Oh yeah.

I see your point Jim!
As much as it gets down and dirty I’m loving the live communication, and yes, thank you to all of the Anons that posted here. It’s been a total blast getting to know you!
FUN! SO MUCH FUN! 😀
Just can’t help loving these Anon peeps – even the misbehavin’ ones.

I concur, it is a win, for all parties involved, except David Miscavige and his followers.
The irony is that through an action that smells like an OSA op targeted to stir up the (admittedly already present) hate hopefully the exact opposite has been accomplished.

It’s somewhat easy for me to say this, as I’m not being followed and harassed as Marty and Mosey are, but both the anons and dm are GREAT opportunities to see IF I can remain without irritation.

Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche – my teacher and spiritual head of Shambhala recently sent out a Harvest of Peace message. (Jim Logan was at the Shambhala monastery (Gampo Abbey) for part of this celebration).

…”Peace is not a word floating in space, nor is it an elusive theme, too sublime to approach. Rather, it is a very real entity that circulates within our own flesh and bones. … we cannot become sleepish, but rather we must constantly have mental alacrity for every moment of life. We must not let the shackles of dullness and irritation hobble our windhorse.”
…
…”If we place our hands on the weapons of selfishness and anger, we reduce our life-force, flame others’ aggression, and bring havoc to the world. However, if we place them at our heart, we will find the elixir of goodness and confidence.”

Anger – interestingly enough does reduce theta/life-force/windhorse. And then we feel justified in pointing out the endless mistakes and problems of OTHERS.

It’s endless. Always has been BUT there is a chance, just a chance, to do something different.

Recognize our own innate potential which really can create a world without war, criminals and insanity.

The trick is “through the pure act of bravery we must rouse the confidence to acknowledge our own basic goodness.” (Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche)

It’s that funny twist — it takes BRAVERY to recognize ones own basic goodness and in doing so, you then begin to acknowledge that OTHERS also have this same BASIC goodness.

Let’s make a funny koan of this storyof pizza (apparently not eaten) and poor private investigator, working long hours , nothing intersting to find, and no bonus ;(

”what is the taste of the non-eaten pizza” ???? ;D

Long time ago, when I left scientology, after going to Flag as a new Sea Org – I left – because I found that screaming and abuse people with denying their basics need has nothinf to do with spiritual freedom but more with ”enslaving” good people . So I refuste to say ”Hi Sir” and I refused to agree on what I saw and understand that I made a mistake and I have to leave this false ”plastic gold colums shinning” place full of lies and slaves.

I remember coacroaches on the table while eating beans and rice – while EPFers were like slave for VIP public and serving them the most expensive food and throwing some into the garbage – nor to say the black rpfers look lige ”ghosts” and left aside – like bad persons! The most valuable people like auditors and cs..I should say especially auditors and cs!

This pizza and PI story islike th rest – all about perceptions at first! YOU choose to perceive what you Choose to perceive and give it the importance you CHOOSE to give it! (oanalysis – evaluation – opinion -decision or nothing)

Not so long time ago I had to fight for my life, to survive to an horribly suffering long agony –

I can assure you , that when your life is over , this might be surprising to say what can make a difference of leaving in peace or not..but I can assure you that it is not Davis Miscavige lol

– Thank’s I had few year of training as zen practice (zazen)that is really my path to free my mind..it help me to deconstruct my old scientology mind and go back to my true nature – wich is just right there , deep inside the sound of silence..

wich is
”breathe – your are alive- breath- everything is going ok , now, in this moment, breathe, Iam in peace ” It saved my life and make me able to endure suffering beyond human can endure and for longgggggg hours and come back to life after an extensive surgery..

So…

Breatheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
you are secure

Breatheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Peace within yourself

Breatheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
you are living

Your true nature is there – and it doen’t need to fight nor to attain something or succeed to proove…you are..this it it!

Tomorrow is another day to live the best as one wish and can!

Within oneself there is a garden – one decide witch seed he water to grow up
We can water seeds of fear, of anger, but we can also decide to eater seeds of peace and tenderness , as when there is cherish ones , in good health besides us!

Thing are as important as we decide it to be! Our innerpeace and quietness takes solid roots just as we open the door to our inner garden!
Then, our actions become les ego -ist or selfish motivated and are more and more guide toward the greatest good for every sentient being – wich might be to expose or anything else – but being solid at peace and equanimity

Equanimity – is agrat to cultivate and make onseself like a solid rock

So we see a pizza ot eat and to share with poor guys triying to fear oneself and attack with a compact camera or video lol
Now…is only what we have…

There is “Fake Anonymous online.” In fact, this particular “Op on Marty” is a classic “ping and troll” methodology: Do something in order to get Marty to make a post on Anonymous. Then sit back and watch the intel and opinion line form among the Indies online.

IMO, part of what this particular “Op on Marty” is looking for is how to use the threat of “Anonymous” against people who want to leave FailCult. What OSA will say is, “See! See! If you leave CoS and go public online then Anonymous will attack you like it has attacked Marty!”

What this suggests to me is that DM and the slagheap of idiots that surround him have been reduced to making this pathetic argument: “The Devil you know (COB) is better than the Devil you don’t know (the world outside of CoS). ”

*****
What actually works quite well is to tell COB and OSA to “f*ck off” and then walk away from CoS. Strap on a pair! Be self-determined! Nothing to fear out here. Even if some OSAbot calls your house pretending to be Anonymous, so what? If that is as scary as it gets, then post the time/date/phone number online. Create a record. Law enforcement has ways to trace Skype or anything else if it cares to. Read up on the NRO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Reconnaissance_Office

When used with other devices, SAR could be used to acquire a thermal image of COB in his thong being irradiated in his suntanning bed. Not that anyone would waste any time or money doing such a thing. My point is that if a real crime occurs and the US Gov’t wants to arrest a person, it can easily acquire the electronic evidence needed to make an arrest. The Feds can easily outperform the meager capabilities of OSA and its hired guns. For all anyone knows, the Feds may be indeed be looking at a PI code-named “Fat Bastard.” I hope the Feds arrest the Fat Bastard someday.

It’s a games condition. But I think most Anons don’t know what really motivated their mind to enter this condition.

“GAMES CONDITION, 1 . when you say games condition you mean that somebody’s power of choice has been subjugated against his will into a fixated activity from which he must not take his attention. (SH Spec 32, 6107C20) 2 . the word games condition is a derogatory actually. There is a technical thing goes along. When you say games condition you mean a package, and the package has to do with this: It means a fixated attention, an inability to escape coupled with an inability to attack, to the exclusion of other games. There is nothing wrong with having games. There is a lot wrong with being in a games condition because it is unknown, it is an aberrated activity, it is reactive, and one is performing it way outside of his power of choice and without his consent or will. (SH Spec 32, 6107C20) 3 . have for self and can’t have for others; now that is a true games condition. (SH Spec 32, 6107C20) Abbr. G.C.”

You just couldn’t give me tone 22 could you :). Had to go all serious on my Ass.
You are actually describing DM’s attention on Marty. In general how Miscavige deploys his means shows what bugs him the most.
What you quoted may aplly to some anons but not to all ansd certainly not to the whole.
The Church sits and watches and than reacts to the moves that are played. Protesting in front of an Org is pretty much waiting for the Cof$ to commit yet another footbullet too.
It is no fun to get a TRO but judges are getting pretty fed up by the Church and the Police as well.

Just as additional information:
accidently I found a fragment of a document about how much money (compensation) David and Michele Miscavige got in 1989,1990 and 1991 for their work from the church.
“http://www.docstoc.com/docs/51638771/All-compensation-from-Scientology-related-organizations-to”

i am not a legal scholar, but if i’m not mistaken i don’t think it is legal to
publicly post a private citizens phone number with out their permission.
Not that i give a rats ass about the perpetrator of the harassing phone call.

Marty, you have so many friends!!
Do not pay attention to people that scream at you…. they scream and we can hear them, but they are very few ….
feel the love instead… you and Mosey are loved and hugged from many of us every day!!

There IS a tenuous and unholy alliance between some independent scientologists and the anonymous group. I have been told by independents that I trust that anonymous have done a lot of good to forward the cause of ending the abuses in the church. I will take them at their word.

Once the church implodes – if the church implodes – I hope this alliance doesn’t backfire and result in anonymous trying to wipe out the subject and the practitioners along with the church. I don’t see how that’s an acheivable goal, but the hassles created will just be one more obstacle to independent training and auditing.

I need to add that I have a curious and probably unique beef with anonymous protesters: they have interrupted several of my auditing sessions in two different cities!

Ron,
I have had several email exchanges with Anons. Each of these has been a much different thing than the inflammatory entheta that characterizes the forums they foster/troll. Those exchanges were intelligent and sincere. Sort of the same thing when you talk to a DM-bot, as an individual. You get them out of the group bank agreements and the being’s native reason and theta have a chance to manifest.

Overall the range of posts on ‘anon’ sites/channels goes from puerile to vicious with a tendency to un-mock just about anything and anyone. The lofty claims to redress of injustice are specious. The tenor of the forums/trolling is in the bulk unrestrained dramatization and destruction. This comment by me, on their sites, would push the button that would bring out the character. That’s not to say it isn’t ‘intelligent’ and it certainly can be and is. But intelligence isn’t a measure of Tone or intent.

The comparison to the OSA sites is pretty much the same; generalized entheta and specious ranting. Hence the two sides of the same coin observation of GPM’s running.

Both seem to be enturbulated life, rejecting life, and on the way, enturbulating life as an aim. ‘Make nothing of’ ‘unmock’ etc., being part of S&D data and tech.

Marty gave a link above to the ‘wired’ article that lays out succinctly how and who got this ‘anon’ thing going including DM’s part in the GPM.

Jim, there’s a whole culture there, and I’m not sure where it comes from, but you have to hang around for a while to get it…and then it sort of grows on you. For instance, I like that there’s no leaders. I like that they don’t want to be anyone’s “personal army”. I like that the are funny as hell. There is a 63 page thread that is dedicated just to photoshops of David Miscavige.

At first they seemed like jerks to me. But you have to figure out how to tune people out and not take them seriously. It’s the internet. And the flip side is how things get done like magic. We had a press conference in LA with ex Sea Org speaking about abuses in the church, and one anon did a magnificent job of videoing and editing the whole thing, and then after it went up on Youtube people around the world started transcribing it into different languages, and then even remaking the videos with subtitles in Spanish, French, German. And no one asked anyone to do it. It just started happening. Maybe you have heard about “The Big List of ex members who have spoken out”. It’s anonther one of those things where someone just started making this wiki list. And you can be sure that after the BBC program airs someone in England will record it and post it on Youtube for the rest of us to watch. Until that time, they will start a thread with a play by play of what is happening while it airs.

So, I’m a big fan of those guys, even though in the beginning I got pounced on a few times myself. Like I said, it’s the internet.

Last thing: there is already a discussion taking place about what to do on the 3rd Anoniversary. It looks like there will be global protests on Feb 12, 2011. You should come.

I was in the church at the time but clueless about the abuses going on. But when I finally woke up, I woke up quickly.

Answer to previous question: I can envision anonymous members harrassing independent scientologists the way they harrass the church. I HOPE this doesn’t happen. I HOPE that folks will distinguish between the church – something to be taken down – and the religious philosophy – something to be left alone.

Something you have to keep in mind; Anon’s introduction to the Church was to an organization that suppressed criticism and free speech and hid behind the cloak of religion. As outsiders, their view was that the whole institution was corrupt.

That view has no doubt been tempered with the emergence of those willing to speak out against the abuses of the Church.

It’s interesting that you mention protests interrupted your auditing sessions within the Church and that you subsequently “woke up.” I think that was kind of the idea.

Btw, the Church no doubt claims they are being harassed by indies as well. I would differentiate between harassment and protest. No one cares what people believe in, just what their actions are.

I HOPE that folks will distinguish between the church – something to be taken down – and the religious philosophy – something to be left alone.
IS, people have the absolute (!) right to believe in Scientology and the qualified right to practise your beliefs as you choose. The qualifications are general laws that should affect all religious practices – not just Scientology – such as, no human trafficking, no murder, no fraud, etc, etc. (BTW, did you see that the Vatican is investigating a Catholic order for cultish behaviours?)

I, like CatDaddy, will not tolerate attempts to stop people practising scientology, where they do so legally.

That doesn’t mean you and your religion will be free from criticism, however. All religions, including my own, may be criticised in a free society. We must get used to the fact that others are free to disagree with or even despise us, so long as they don’t break the law in doing so (eg. by exhorting people to commit crimes against us).

So, I can’t say that I’ll agree that the philosophy of scientology should be “left alone” if that means no criticism. Not that I think that’s what you were saying. I just want to be clear.

If you’d care to return the “favour”, help people understand that one Anon does not equal another Anon.

Perhaps that may be. I’ve already watched and listened his other stuff about BEING the multiple valences of “fear”, “the protector”, “the skeptic”, “the seeker”, “the seeker of the way”, and “the way” etc,.

I look at what could have happened with Scientology expansion and it’s further development, had it held onto the scientific approach of tech rather than venturing into unreal (to many) space opera and mysticism, and also had been free.

Calling it a religion created too many acceptance barriers and reduced scientific validation, and put dogma on the line (IMO), and perhaps even keyed in past religious implants, which is certainly not the goal here.

Could it be, as a great teacher, instead of doing all the thinking for the student, it’s almost as if LRH purposely put in obvious OUTPOINTS in Scientology to see if Scientologists would actually use Scientology to eventually spot those obvious outpoints on their own, and then correct them.

Didn’t he keep saying, observe the obvious?

Perhaps he knew Scientologists eventually would find the outpoints and iron them out. THEN, and only then would Scientology become an active, truly living science, instead of just data to be roboticly learned and not really applied properly.

I don’t believe Ron intended any roboticness on the subject, which is what happened.

Also, did Ron really expect he had to do EVERYTHING regarding lining up the science of “knowing how to know”?

Isn’t that too much to ask of any single person?

I don’t believe any other scientist has expected that of themselves regarding any of their own scientific discoveries. So why would Ron believe any differently about his discoveries?

Only if he were on a Self Ego trip could he ever possibly believe that, IMO. Or did he really go spinning down on an Ego trip?

Wayne~I agree. If you look back at the entries re. walking through the valley of death and so many comments in that vein, I do think the evolution is what it is because it’s a living thing.
But these are all realized on gradients, obviously, beginning at so many different levels.
I am still a bit shocked when it appears “Scientologists” believe LRH was omniscient, omnipotent, and any of those other omnis. 😉
Moving on up a little higher myself, I really see how believing that is really just a lower awareness level.

As most of the people commenting here feel, I agree that it is coming from the C of $. I found a link the other day on you tube from Lawrence Brennan. It is very interesting and must be frightening to DM as Lawrence has a lot of information that I am sure Marty does as well. The link follows.

Whoever is pestering you, Anon. or OSA, it is all such a pointless waste of time. There is nothing that DM can do to stop the downward spiral that his management has caused. The big battles of this war are over, he has lost it even if he does not understand this yet. The future humiliations that will be visited on him will crush him. It will reach the point when he can’t hide his failure from even the most desperate fanatic. What is a dictator to do when his shell game falls apart??