Missing pins in new piano

Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1301:38 PM

We purchased a brand new cable nelson (c216) upright and it was delivered yesterday . We noticed that there are 2 pins missing in the bottom and as a result the 2 strings that are not fastened are twisted. Is this something that can be fixed by the dealer or should I ask for a replacement? Any info is appreciated. Thanks.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1301:45 PM

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1301:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Lkdas

We purchased a brand new cable nelson (c216) upright and it was delivered yesterday . We noticed that there are 2 pins missing in the bottom and as a result the 2 strings that are not fastened are twisted. Is this something that can be fixed by the dealer or should I ask for a replacement? Any info is appreciated. Thanks.

After a little more than 50 years in this business I won't say that what you describe is impossible but it would be rather difficult for the piano to make it through the whole assembly process without something like this being detected and fixed. Offhand I'd guess that the pins (probably hitchpins from your description of the problem) have either broken or (possibly) there is a flaw in the frame casting which has allowed them to come out. Another possibility is that the wire loop has broken. Whatever the cause of the problem it should be repaired to like new condition or the piano should be replaced.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1303:26 PM

Nothing to do with piano prep? Prep is to prepare the instrument before it hits the sales floor or delivered. It is inexcusable that an instrument was delivered in this condition. That is a truly bad dealership and obviously it hadn't even been tuned prior to delivery.

Lkdas - If this problem is not immediately solved, to your satisfaction, contact Yamaha Corporation of America. 800-854-1569

I would request a new instrument. Don't take a chance on something else being wrong with that piano.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1303:27 PM

The piano was delivered in original packaging and the movers removed the packaging in our home. So the dealer did not do any quality control prior , which I was told that they would do before delivery. I just called the dealer after reading the replies here and he is sending a technician to look at it and he confirmed it is a warranty issue. I think they may try to repair it , but I guess I should ask for a replacement.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1303:34 PM

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1303:48 PM

I would recommend not accepting a "repair". I assume you intended to buy a new piano "out of the box" and whatever you spent to purchase it was for a new piano in factory-new condition. (I'm assuming it came in its original crate...) IMHO, it indicates a major flaw, or there may be other hidden damage due to handling, and you may end up with other pins coming out in the near future, or other problems. Repair, whether under warranty or not, is not an option. Demand a new one, or even consider getting a refund and looking at another brand/model. The warranty shouldn't even apply in this case....it was broken out of the box. Agree with checking serial numbers.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1303:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

Nothing to do with piano prep? Prep is to prepare the instrument before it hits the sales floor or delivered.

With the important qualifier "that the dealer did not know about it before delivery". For all we knew, it could have broken after prep, either late at night at the dealer (due to misaligned planets, or something) or on the truck en route to the customer's home.

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

It is inexcusable that an instrument was delivered in this condition.

It's unfortunate, but you have to keep in mind that this is an entry level piano, and it is not uncommon for such pianos to be delivered in their original packaging. AND we don't know when it broke! In terms of all the things that could go wrong with a piano, this is relatively minor; realistically, this could probably even be fixed in the customer's home, if need be. Let's give the dealer a chance to fix the problem.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1304:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Lkdas

The piano was delivered in original packaging and the movers removed the packaging in our home. So the dealer did not do any quality control prior , which I was told that they would do before delivery .

The sales price of the instrument has nothing to do with the situation, so don't blame it on being an entry level piano. This is just plain sloppy treatment by a dealer.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1304:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

Originally Posted By: Lkdas

The piano was delivered in original packaging and the movers removed the packaging in our home. So the dealer did not do any quality control prior , which I was told that they would do before delivery .

The sales price of the instrument has nothing to do with the situation, so don't blame it on being an entry level piano. This is just plain sloppy treatment by a dealer.

Read what the poster has written.

Well, it kind of does; dealers are simply not going to put the same kind of man hours into a piano at this price (of course, a customer should expect their piano to arrive in reasonably well playing condition and in one piece). At the same time, these Cable Nelsons are not bad pianos at all. Yes, they're made in China, but in a Yamaha-owned factory (I believe); I've tuned one or two of them and they're nice. One could probably take one out of the box and do relatively little "prep" to it.

I'm not saying what happened is right, Marty. You should know better than to think that. I'm just sayin' st*ff happens... let the dealer fix it before we get all angsty. Lord knows we have enough other topics to be angsty about.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1306:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Lkdas

The piano was delivered in original packaging and the movers removed the packaging in our home. So the dealer did not do any quality control prior , which I was told that they would do before delivery. I just called the dealer after reading the replies here and he is sending a technician to look at it and he confirmed it is a warranty issue. I think they may try to repair it , but I guess I should ask for a replacement.

Assuming the technician is competent this should be a relatively simple repair. In all likelihood the original pins were damaged during the installation process. The holes in the cast frame are drilled at 90° to the surface and then bent back as you see them now. If the metal is a little on the hard side—as opposed to being ductile, or bendable—it can fracture when that bend is made.

Relative to the strength of the material the amount of stress on the pin is fairly low but once the material has fractured I can see how the pins might well break. Had the piano actually been uncrated and prepped at the dealership these would have been repaired there and you’d never have known about problem. Now that you do know, however, prudence would suggest that you at least ask for a replacement instrument; this time one that really has been prepped.

If the dealer and/or the manufacturer is unwilling to do this I wouldn’t panic. It really should be a fairly simple repair. In that part of the scale the hitchpin hole should be through-drilled so it should be possible to simply drive the remaining part of the hitchpin out the back side (after protecting the soundboard surface, of course) and driving in new pins.

I don’t know what the standard warrantee is like on these pianos but I’d also ask for an extension on this particular part of the piano on the basis that in all likelihood all of the hitchpins in the piano have come from the same production run and if two of them were weak it is certainly possible that others might well follow these.

As well, I’d be negotiating for a couple of extra tunings as getting these strings seated back into place and stabilized is going to take a little time. There won’t be any long term damage of any kind but the piano’s tuning—particularly those notes—will be a little less stable for the next few months.

Were I the technician being sent out to replace these pins I’d be carrying my magnifier with me and I’d be looking real close at the rest of the hitchpins. The place to look is right at the outside of the bend (i.e., on the bridge side) just where the pin comes out of the frame and is bent back.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1306:43 PM

I would be hard pressed to do this as an in-home repair, and it would be just as easy to replace the piano when this piano is moved. Besides, I doubt if many techs would have the proper replacement parts readily available, so replacing the piano would be faster than repairing it.

Although this piano repaired will probably be resold as new, other industries might call it refurbished.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1307:55 PM

Originally Posted By: BDB

I would be hard pressed to do this as an in-home repair, and it would be just as easy to replace the piano when this piano is moved. Besides, I doubt if many techs would have the proper replacement parts readily available, so replacing the piano would be faster than repairing it.

Although this piano repaired will probably be resold as new, other industries might call it refurbished.

Knowing in advance what the problem is makes all the difference. As such, it should be a fairly simple repair.

The proper pins are obtained in advance. The technician knows the piano will have to go on its back so the tilter and a couple of moving blankets to protect the floor are a part of the kit that day. The piano goes on its back, the pedal board may or may not have to be removed. Something thin and tough is slid under the frame to protect the surface of the soundboard, using a drift pin the broken pins are driven out and collected, new pins are driven in and bent back, the existing strings are loosened a bit, hooked around the new pins and threaded through the bridge pins and, finally, are pulled up to pitch.

Can't see the whole thing taking over an hour or two. Followed up by however long it takes to tune the piano and do the basic prep work that should have been done before the piano was delivered. Situations like this do illustrate the wisdom of actually doing a reasonable amount of prep work before the piano is delivered.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1309:33 PM

It is just that it may take longer to get the proper pins than to get a new piano, and that there is no guarantee that it will be easy to tilt the piano in the house. Nor is it clear that there is good clearance for pounding out the old pins. Plus, it is possible that removing the pins would distort the hole, leading to problems. If there is another piano available, that is the best way of dealing with it. That would be my advice to the dealer, because it is best for the customer.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1310:49 PM

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1311:06 PM

So, to all of those responders who are techs (which I admit I am not...just a consumer) and feel that repair is OK in this situation, I must ask: If you bought a new Fazioli, Bechstein, Sauter, Grotrian, etc. and it had exactly the same problem as Lkdas' piano, you would be OK with a repair and not a replacement? You would be OK with a technician turning your new piano on its side, manipulating it, and then checking for other damage or imperfections, when you just paid for a new piano and can't play it at all?? I respect all the technicians' opinions on this forum and have learned a lot just by following the threads, but it seems to me that this is a business issue first and foremost, for Lkdas.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1311:18 PM

Originally Posted By: LFL

So, to all of those responders who are techs (which I admit I am not...just a consumer) and feel that repair is OK in this situation, I must ask: If you bought a new Fazioli, Bechstein, Sauter, Grotrian, etc. and it had exactly the same problem as Lkdas' piano, you would be OK with a repair and not a replacement? You would be OK with a technician turning your new piano on its side, manipulating it, and then checking for other damage or imperfections, when you just paid for a new piano and can't play it at all?? I respect all the technicians' opinions on this forum and have learned a lot just by following the threads, but it seems to me that this is a business issue first and foremost, for Lkdas.

Yes. I'd be 100% OK with a repair. What's the difference between a repair done in your home and one done at the factory? The piano doesn't know where it is. . .

Ideally this would have been caught in the factory but this one escaped. If I did the repair, there is no magic radiation present in the factory that is going to make the repair one bit better than in the customer's home.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1311:28 PM

Originally Posted By: BDB

It is just that it may take longer to get the proper pins than to get a new piano, and that there is no guarantee that it will be easy to tilt the piano in the house. Nor is it clear that there is good clearance for pounding out the old pins. Plus, it is possible that removing the pins would distort the hole, leading to problems. If there is another piano available, that is the best way of dealing with it. That would be my advice to the dealer, because it is best for the customer.

A whole list of assumptions here. . .

The hitch pins are available from Schaff -- or your friendly local hardware. Why wouldn't be there a guarantee that tilting is easy? It is more unlikely that the space is so postage stamp small that you couldn't do a tilt. Even then, you could tip it on its side.

Neither Del nor myself regard this as a daunting project. I think most technicians that are set up to do more than just tuning would regard this as pretty straightforward.

Room for the hitch to be driven through? Well, that could be found out before the visit, as well.

Room to use a hammer? Not a problem if you take the floor of the piano off (and perhaps the pedal rail). Also, I have a pneumatic pin driver that requires no swing and runs well from a portable compressor.

All in all, many options for the knowledgeable and resourceful technician.

Best for the customer? Moving a piano in and out also has its own attendant issues, as well. And what if that model of piano was the last one in stock and the dealer has to get a new one from China? Maybe the customer would rather have the issue done and over with and move on.

The concerns you raise are questions to be answered, not an automatic veto of doing the work on location.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1311:37 PM

Originally Posted By: kpembrook

Ideally this would have been caught in the factory but this one escaped. If I did the repair, there is no magic radiation present in the factory that is going to make the repair one bit better than in the customer's home.

Oh, I doubt it left the factory like this. If it had it would have been repaired at the factory. This happened between the factory and here--wherever here is.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/20/1311:48 PM

Originally Posted By: LFL

So, to all of those responders who are techs (which I admit I am not...just a consumer) and feel that repair is OK in this situation, I must ask: If you bought a new Fazioli, Bechstein, Sauter, Grotrian, etc. and it had exactly the same problem as Lkdas' piano, you would be OK with a repair and not a replacement? You would be OK with a technician turning your new piano on its side, manipulating it, and then checking for other damage or imperfections, when you just paid for a new piano and can't play it at all?? I respect all the technicians' opinions on this forum and have learned a lot just by following the threads, but it seems to me that this is a business issue first and foremost, for Lkdas.

LFL, upright pianos spend many hours on their side in order to be manufactured. It's normal. It's also normal for a variety of repairs. Whether it can be done in the home or not, it will go on its side to be repaired.

If you purchased a new car and the seatbelt was broken, didn't latch or had a snag in weave that might tear, that would be serious enough to not drive it even though it mostly works. Would you expect a new car or a repair?

The purchaser did not know enough to avoid purchasing an unprepared piano, still in crate. I wouldn't play into an owners' unreasonable fears...which is a lot different than reasonable ones.

The decision to repair or replace depends on info we do not have because it could go either way. By itself, it's a decision based on the reasonable inconvenience of a warranty claim and process.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/21/1312:00 AM

Originally Posted By: LFL

So, to all of those responders who are techs (which I admit I am not...just a consumer) and feel that repair is OK in this situation, I must ask: If you bought a new Fazioli, Bechstein, Sauter, Grotrian, etc. and it had exactly the same problem as Lkdas' piano, you would be OK with a repair and not a replacement? You would be OK with a technician turning your new piano on its side, manipulating it, and then checking for other damage or imperfections, when you just paid for a new piano and can't play it at all?? I respect all the technicians' opinions on this forum and have learned a lot just by following the threads, but it seems to me that this is a business issue first and foremost, for Lkdas.

Well, how do you think uprights are built? They're built with their strings facing the ceiling. Some technicians have upright tilters that allow this to be accomplished safely by one person. The only real questions here, as others have said, is what's most practical and expedient for the customer.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/21/1312:15 AM

Thanks everyone for all of your replies - I really appreciate it. I will surely post an update after the technician visit. I am glad I posted my question here. We knew next to nothing about a piano and now i feel I am a little more educated. Thanks !- Jeya

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/21/1312:31 AM

Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL

LFL, upright pianos spend many hours on their side in order to be manufactured. It's normal. It's also normal for a variety of repairs. Whether it can be done in the home or not, it will go on its side to be repaired.

If you purchased a new car and the seatbelt was broken, didn't latch or had a snag in weave that might tear, that would be serious enough to not drive it even though it mostly works. Would you expect a new car or a repair?

The purchaser did not know enough to avoid purchasing an unprepared piano, still in crate. I wouldn't play into an owners' unreasonable fears...which is a lot different than reasonable ones.

The decision to repair or replace depends on info we do not have because it could go either way. By itself, it's a decision based on the reasonable inconvenience of a warranty claim and process.

I do not think that this is the equivalent of something being wrong with a seatbelt. That does not compromise the basic function of a car. This is more like a wheel wobbling on its axle because a part broke.

Keep in mind that I have no objection to this piano being repaired and resold without going back to the factory, but there are so many things that need to be done, and so many factors involved, that I would not be comfortable with the repair being done in someone's house. Once you have to move the piano, even an internal move to tilt it, it is much better just to switch out the piano, particularly since Jeya did not pick out this one specifically.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/21/1304:02 PM

This is far less serious than the piano I have in my shop we use for laughs, which was drop shipped factory direct crated to a church. Ours has a washing machine door complete with the porthole ( no glass) and working light, with wires fused between the rear framing and soundboard. We have wired it up to a battery so we can turn the light in the door on and off. I am not sure if that is a factory option or not but without glass that washer might have had a leak.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/21/1305:08 PM

This is definitely a warranty situation, as there are obvious problems with the materials and/or workmanship. The company usually has the right to decide whether to replace or repair.

As a consumer, I would also probably ask for a replacement piano. Just be aware that the replacement piano will have hitch pins made of the the same (questionable?) alloy, driven in and bent back by the same person in the factory, subject to the same string tensions - i.e. just as prone to breakage.

The "defective" piano would then go to the dealer, where in an hour or two the pins would be replaced and the piano would be sold as new to the next client....

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/21/1305:59 PM

Considering what it costs for a corp like Yamaha to build one of these I would think a replacement instrument would be fastest and cheapest for all parties to this issue.

This part here;

Originally Posted By: Lkdas

The piano was delivered in original packaging and the movers removed the packaging in our home. So the dealer did not do any quality control prior, which I was told that they would do before delivery. I just called the dealer after reading the replies here and he is sending a technician to look at it and he confirmed it is a warranty issue. I think they may try to repair it, but I guess I should ask for a replacement.

I don’t know of any dealers who uncrate a piano, prep the piano and put it back into the original packing crate and deliver it to the customer. That makes little in the way of sense to me.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/22/1306:00 PM

I would not have any problem having the dealer repair the piano and warranty the work if it were me.

I would, however, object to the major procedures described here being done in my house. If they want to tip it over, hammer on it, etc. I would expect that they would take it to their shop, repair it there, show it to me when they're finished, deliver it and set it up. That's what would be done if a car had a serious problem on delivery. I would not expect the mechanic to bring tools and repair it in my garage.

If they weren't willing to do that, the alternative would be a replacement piano.

Re: Missing pins in new piano - 01/22/1306:19 PM

Here is the update -I couldn't wait for the technician/dealer to call me back and I was so mad that I called Yamaha directly . I spoke to their customer service team and the person asked me to send a picture and after I did , I got a callback right away saying that it will be replaced and added that he has never seen one like that before in his career !!Unfortunately the dealer doesn't have another one in stock and we will have to wait for a week or 2 for the dealer to pick it up from Yamaha . I believe there is some paper work that dealer needs from Yamaha and because of the NAMM show, he won't get it until Monday. After all this one thing that I regret was - not buying it directly from Yamha in the Costco roadshow. We had decided on the cable-nelson and the only reason we went with the Yamaha Authorized dealer was hoping that if anything went wrong the dealer would help. If I had not made the call to Yamaha customer service, I am sure there wouldn't have been any progress. Even after sending multiple emails to the sales person/dealer, he did not call us back or reply to the email. I have been the one calling and following -up.We didn't save any money by getting it from the dealer, in fact we would have saved atleast $100-$150 had we bought it from Costco( along with costco's return policy) .

I am really thankful to all of you who have contributed to this thread and I wouldn't have known the magnitude of the problem without all of your valuable comments /suggestions.I'll keep my fingers crossed hoping and praying that the next piano we get will be a good one !!