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What constitutes evidence of a “lie” and how do Donald Trump’s utterances not meet this standard? Being a “schoolboy,” or for that matter an actor, does not excuse bald faced lying. Referencing the infinitely malleable Sunnah as authority and demanding anyone accept someone’s word as “evidence,” even when the deceit is as plain as the nose on Sheikh Imran Hossein’s face, perfectly demonstrates how the Sunnah can and has been used by Caliphs, Sultans, Judeo-Wahabists and Anglo-Americans alike from time immemorial — as authority for the manipulatation of the religion of Islam.

And I should be clear, I do not wish to single out Islam since from my perspective, Constantine did exactly the same with Christianity, turning it into a religion of hypocrites and slaves. This is why ‘religion’ is different from ‘truth.’ Religious scholars have muddied this distinction for obvious reasons. Priests and scribes have always had their own agendas and those agendas have always found their way into religious interpretations. Islam has bypassed this problem by claiming the Koran comes directly from God but I am not a Muslim and though I think it wrong to demean anyone’s belief it is clear to me this Abrahamic compromise with truth comes not from God but from corruptible men.

I charge Imran Hossein with being an agent of an ancient psychological psyop, inherited and perfected by Anglo-Americans who wield it, as ever, for political purposes. He does not speak for any of the Muslims I know and those who have heard of him always seem to reject his interpretations outright. Sheikh Imran’s primary constituency is in the West, amongst those who support an ecumenical view of religion for purposes which I deem to be of an entirely earthly, dare I say Masonic-Intel nature and origin. We are being led down the garden path by people who are more interested in social control than they are in the Kingdom of God. This utopia will never exist in this world and so I will always be wary of those who deign to promise it to the desperate and afraid.

It should always been reminded what the “Kingdom of God’ means for Christians:

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?” (John 18:36-38)
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him” (John 14:6-7).

People are unfair to Constantine. I reality he offered the protection of the state to the Church. He actually followed the injunction of the Christ ” Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him”. He did not mix them as Islam did.

The people who are “unfair” to St. Constantine tend to be adherents of the various philosophical-political clubs called “Protestantism,” which have very little or nothing to do with Christianity. This makes it all the more amusing when they attempt to speak from authority about what Christianity is, even though their Sunday morning lectures/group therapy sessions bear no resemblance to what the Church has looked like from the very beginning.

Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s is a translation of a old principle in Jewish legal opinions – dina d’malchuta dina…”the law of the kingdom is the law”..

From this the Sages prise out the idea from a law that addressed matters of land transfer and taxation, when the Jews were “guests” in foreign kingdoms and were obliged to pay the local taxes – prise out the idea that some people might be exceptional and not have to pay…

And even take it further, and claim that they paid God instead of the State.

Roman Governors like Pilate were obliged to pay Rome, and permitted to take and keep what they themselves could take and keep, so long as they paid the squeeze they owed…like organized crime, which it was….

That’s what Jesus was saying, do not pay the corrupt squeeze, but only pay what you owe to Rome…

“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” – In other words, give the world what is for world and give God what is for God, give the matter what belongs to matter and give the spirit what belongs to spirit ( because, as a spiritual being you have to live in your physical body which is connected with the physical world and you soul with the spiritual world )

I believe in what is called Christ by some, Krishna by others. There have been many names and descriptions. You feel it, live it, know it or you don’t. Oral tradition can help preserve it but written tradition is for changing, manipulating, controlling.

I do not believe Jesus Christ told anyone to pay their taxes and be a good tool of the Roman Empire, destroyer of his people and their homeland. That input came from Roman funded scribes, begining with traitor Josephus who chronicled the military victories of the Flavians, the original meaning of the word ‘gospel’ — i.e. news of great military victories.

And that is the problem with religion or describing god… so many interpretations of the same “scriptures”. Then add translation errors and confirmation bias (those interpreting see what they want to in the passage), and you have the Tower of Babel… (I crack me up…)

Oral traditions also suffer from the “telephone game” error propagation. (The game is also known as Russian scandal, whisper down the lane, broken telephone, operator, grapevine, gossip, don’t drink the milk, secret message, the messenger game, and pass the message.)

“Science” is not infallible, but properly done in the long run it is self-correcting, something religion cannot be, due to religion’s required dependence on ancient narratives describing natural phenomena without the full knowledge required to even make an educated guess about the reality.

@ AlfaAlfalfa: On this we agree. The “religion” scam has been going on since humans first sat around a fire, looked out at the stars and deified the natural processes of the seasons, lifeforms and weather. “Give me your offerings to the gods and I’ll intercede with them, heal you, lead you”, said the shaman/tribal chiefs, followed by some slight of hand and logic-dulling chants or mind altering drugs…

Yes, there is that 96% of the universe we are just beginning to rationally know about to be “connected” to, but the priestly class has no special powers the rest of us don’t. We masses are just taught from an early age to focus on the “left brain” logical/vocational activities, and leave all the “right brain” wu-wu stuff to holy men, artists and musicians. No blasphemy allowed.

The difference is now we can see galaxies at the edges of the universe accelerating away from us, and down to the smallest quanta, and analyze the effects of energy/forces on time-space. The energies working in and around our bodies (forms torroids) have been measured and plotted. Wondrous? ABSOLUTELY. Supernatural? No, just the natural we haven’t yet figured out. Time for human-kind to grow up and admit “We Don’t Know” and stop making up/refining an endless stream of gods/religions/folk-lore to fill in the blanks in our real knowledge.

And yet the masses dutifully gather to pray on cue, give significant portions of their disposable income to priests/imams etc., and learn to hate “the other” for not holding the same made-up beliefs.

Humans are ONE RACE. There are outward physical differences, but those variations are more local responses to the environment and close distance-interbreeding than significant genetic branches. All the garment/dietary “laws” are human-cultural, not ordained by the universe (sorry, “god”).

Religion is an artificial construct, and continues solely to perpetuate the control of the many by the few. The core moral codes which make up such a small % of the voluminous “holy scriptures” are basic common sense, mostly “do unto others as you would be done”. No need to build a cathedral or mosque to understand that truth. Much less fight wars over it.

An unbiased reading of the New Testament shows Jesus was anti-authoritarian, a socialist and pacifist. It is said (I haven’t read the Q’uran,so make no specific claims there) that true Islam carries much the the same message. And yet there is multi-sided “religious wars” going on between various Muslim sects, Christians and Jews? Orthodox vs. Papal Catholicism, vs. endless stripes of Protestantism… which “Christian” religion is the correct one? And then there’s the variations in Jewish/Judaism… The fact we see recent derivations like Mormons, 7th Day, truckloads of “born agains” and Moonies attests to the man-made nature of religions.

Just “have faith”… which faith?

“There are non so hopelessly enslaved than those who mistakenly believe they are free.” Gothe

Socialist: All those loaves and fishes, wine handed out for free. If he was a capitalist, he would have charged money for the good he conjured out of nothing. Scholars would be lauding Jesus for his compound interest model of loaves and fishes.

Pacifist: Save your life self defense, OK. First-strike aggression/hate, Not OK.
Turn the other cheek, blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the sons of god,
Luke 12: You have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’a 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ (ed. literal- you idiot, or also interpreted as symbolizing generalized name-calling) will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fire of hell.

23Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way to court. Otherwise he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.

Ya, Jesus was a real warmonger…

Gay? Really, you’re going there… other than a bunch of priests trying to make his “celibacy” (or actually no-marriage) a justification for current Catholic idiocy, and believer gays trying to gain entry to heaven, WHO CARES?

And it’s all made up anyway, I just like using the believers’ moralist claptrap against them. Y’see unlike so many non-believers, I was raised Christian, so know the ideological maze I walked out of.

The Wiz offers an opinion on homosexuality but the record shows that Jesus had a number of children , and that they were conceived as prescribed by the conventions covering such matters, as were observed by the members of the Essene cult to which Jesus belonged.

You bet: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household”.

Keep trying, maybe you’ll be able to finish reading the “Bible”. And if you try hard enough maybe you’d be able even to understand what you read!

@ WizOz: And you make my point… contradictory messages from one supposed god, even within the same “religion”. So which idea takes precedence, “Blessed are the peacemakers” or this probably metaphorical reference (that whole thou shalt not kill, honouring parents thing…) … besides, Jesus was a man (if you believe the myth) not a physical sword.

So this passage is most likely about using the IDEA of Jesus as a weapon to attack others (even your own family) if they disagree? Like you just did. Again, (mis)interpretation is everything…

The obvious conclusion (which “true believers” will never accept) is that the Bible/Torah/Q’ran are a mash-up of texts from many writers at many times from many places, not the contiguous and cohesive divinely inspired record of a god’s mind. Add in the fact those sage intellects interpreting these “holy texts” also disagree wildly.

It is impossible to logically collate, let alone understand such a fragmented and confused set of messages. And not even literally, the metaphorical constructs do not agree. Is Jesus the Prince of Peace or not? Or will there only be peace when the Christian soldiers liquidate all non-believers? Oddly the “peace-loving” Christians make the same warmonger claims of Islam against infidels, yet the good Imam who authors here claims Islam is a religion of peace as well. Or is that peace only to be after the Jews/Zionists kill all non-believers?

Or peace only when a god shows up to do the job for the faithful? Ya that’s the ticket, nuclear holocaust is god’s will, not a result of psychopathic humans falsely believing a fake god wants them to force it.

At least the Jews don’t make the false claim of being peaceful, the Old Testament/Torah is full of the Israelites practicing genocide in ancient times, just like now.

Keep trying, as I can see you did not even read any of the “mash-up of texts”. Maybe you should ask for help from the custodians of the ‘mashed-up texts’ (yes, the priests). It is anti-scientific to get your information from people like Dawkins, Dennett and their ilk who in their turn don’t know what they are talking about. If you want to talk about a country you haven’t visited, who should you trust? Someone who describes it to you from books, or someone who actually visited it or lived in it?

@ Wi: zOzI was raised Christian, and know the tricks you play very well. You assume much, that I follow the extreme edges of screwed-up ideas of Dawkin’s et. al. There is no need to “follow”, the real information is now clearly available to any who care to look and the rational ability to analyze it.

And which country holds the secrets to all universal knowledge, that we may all go there and become as wise a you? Or is that just a veiled ad hominem that slipped by the mos?

Take the log out of your own eye before you come for the sliver in mine.

@ Anonymous: OK… I’m game.
The quote is: angels travel in one day 1000x further than the moon in a year.

The moon travels ~1.4 million miles per year around the earth. 1000x that is 1.4billion miles. I don’t think anyone really knows how far our entire solar system/galaxy travels (relative to what point in the universe?) so lets assume the Q’ran means moon in orbit around earth.

One light day is 16billion miles… gee, only off by a factor of 10… but who’s counting.

Next, Islam’s Seven Heavens are claimed to be the extra dimensions in physics, making up Dark Matter/Energy, the 96% of the universe we have just begun to comprehend… oh wait, Mesopotamians “invented” the seven heavens long before Islam was a glimmer in Mohammed’s eye.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Heavens

Making stuff up is SO fun and profitable, and few believers ever check your math or look to see where the “holy” ideas were originally conceived.

Since you opened the god vs science can of worms, I’ll bend you brain a bit further:

The possibility exists that consciousness in the universe may actually be able to manifest energetic phenomena out of whatever Dark Matter/Energy is. Hence the proven action of mass prayer/intent/emotion by humans on otherwise isolated random number generation in computers. That whole quantum physics of the “observer” changing the thing observed idea.

So if enough people believe in a particular god, does that cause the god to be manifested from Dark Energy/Matter? (notice it is belief that creates the god, not the other way around) This then begs the question, what happens to gods so manifested as their believers change/fragment how they think that god exists/acts? (think Judaic/Christian/Muslim… same basic god, 3 major belief stripes, hundreds of sub-sects)

And what happens to gods relegated to myth, as science comes to understand the natural phenomena formerly ascribed to said gods? (Thor/Zeus and their lightning bolts hurled at sinners.)

If you want to play more mind games, say so here and start a sub-thread in the current Cafe…

It seems that you haven’t read through the full details on the islam-light-info link. Within the initial article, a “learn more” link is embedded which discusses the detailed physics/maths relating to the speed of light/distance travelled by light in inertial and non-inertial frames of reference.

Within the above discussion the point is made of the applicable Qur’anic verse alluding to the non-inertial frame of reference of light travel in one day equating to 1000 lunar years (12,000) moon orbits which is in line with the “physics” calculation underpinning the special theory of relativity.

I read enough to figure out the site authors are manipulating the logic behind Archimedes’ premise: “Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.”

In this case, the Q’ran claim a relationship between the velocity of the moon and the velocity of angels… only much later did anyone think to make the claim that angels travel at the speed of light… and if angels truly are the stuff of Dark Mater/Energy, they would exhibit the properties of “spooky action at a distance” which happens instantaneously, regardless of distance. Like gravity.

To this day, Muslims travel long distances to walk around an iron meteorite as a holy rite… bow to face that place and pray, as if that meteorite holds powers beyond being a lump of space rock.

Why not pray to the locations where significantly larger space rocks landed, like off the Yucatan? Surely god would be more focused there, rather than on a relatively insignificant space-pebble that merely survived the trip through the atmosphere to land in the desert where some nomads could find it.

Again, there is no supernatural, only the natural we have not yet figured out. Convincing the masses it is god’s will we all should walk around a particular rock once in our lives shows what religion is all about.

@ nice try. OMG!!!!
I saw what you posted and wondered – are you possibly alluding to the manifestation/summoning of the ancient frog-god KEK by the 4-chan. ???
You wrote:The possibility exists that consciousness in the universe may actually be able to manifest energetic phenomena out of whatever Dark Matter/Energy is. Hence the proven action of mass prayer/intent/emotion by humans on otherwise isolated random number generation in computers.
That whole quantum physics of the “observer” changing the thing observed idea.

So if enough people believe in a particular god, does that cause the god to be manifested from Dark Energy/Matter? (notice it is belief that creates the god, not the other way around) This then begs the question, what happens to gods so manifested as their believers change/fragment how they think that god exists/acts? (think Judaic/Christian/Muslim… same basic god, 3 major belief stripes, hundreds of sub-sects)

@nice try. What you write about belief creating a god – it ACTUALLY happened to 4-chan !!!
Just some teasers from the site: the “meme-magic” is mind-melting!
1/ Pepe the Frog is, in fact, the modern-day avatar of an ancient Egyptian deity accidentally resurrected by online imageboard culture.
2/ Remember how we learned that “kek” the meme came about from an obscure Korean language onomatopoeia, completely independently from Pepe the Frog? Well, it turns out Kek is also—and always has been—an ancient Egyptian deity… A frog-headed one.
3/a 1980s vinyl record is discovered….. The B-side is a performer “P. E. P. E.”, sporting a frog with a magic wand. A frog. And what’s P. E. P. E. stand for? | Point. | Emerging. | Probably. | Entering. |
“Probably.” What are sweet repeating digits “collected” by 4-chan all about? Probability.
What is this “gist” of Kekism on /pol/? He speaks to them through dubs.Their ancient egyptian god of obscurity and chaos “emerges/enters” at “points” of “probability.”

@nice try, I reckon you’ll enjoy the premise based on what you have written

The difference is, the Kek/Pepe thing is at most parody, a cruel joke on those who get duped (even if some “followers” are seriously working the flat-earth model of “belief”), whereas our Judaic/Christian/Muslim friends are deadly serious. At least that’s what the true believers claim… their god is real, and routinely influences specific human-centric events here on earth, and is deliberately directing the specific actions and thoughts of human believers vs. non-believers. Ditto for satan (and all the variants), another human construct. Gotta have a boogie-man in charge of a hellish place to scare the sheeple into line.

The Jews/Zionists actually think (or at least it’s their story and their sticking to it) their god exclusively deeded them the Promised Land (Palestine), and the Muslims think that same god said otherwise. The Christians are just along for the theological (or is that oil-access, bankster-butt-kissing) ride, claiming the Jews/Muslims missed the “saviour” boat.

So no, I’m not invoking Kek/Pepe the Frog, but raising some interesting ideas that mainstream religions simply have no means to factually or theologically accommodate. As for relatively modern whackadoodles like L. Ron Hubbard, Millerite and Jehovah’s Witness followers, no idea is apparently too silly to be taken seriously by moderately large, intellectually/emotionally vulnerable, segments of society.

I feel sorry for the JW’s that show up on my doorstep… I generally just send the really old dears on their way, but the middle-aged ones are fair game. If there is a youngster with a mind to be exposed to non-cult ideas, I enjoy having a bit of fun debating the older “handler” while the young-un listens/looks-on wide-eyed and open-mouth. I find after that they avoid my house for a few years, but eventually someone doesn’t get the “don’t go there” list and it begins again.Removed. Mod

Sorry to butt in but I have a thought on the subject of gods metamorphosing or being in some way projections of human desire/faith. It is interesting that the abyss between Judaism and Christianity, contains the secret of a repentant Jahweh, who nevertheless continues to bear some of the psychopathic traits of the God who tested Abraham but, in the end, spared Isaac. Of course he tortured both of them.
A lot of the theological bead games in the two religions, are about Christ being not merely the substitute sacrifice but about him actually being the new, reformed Jahweh. If you are an orthodox jew, you cry “Crucify him!”
But if you are Christian, you breathe a big sigh of relief about the mean, violent ‘daddy’-figure being imprisoned in the retirement home.

Please close down this conversation – personal digs between commenters break the saker moderation policy and add nothing to the discussion on the article. All further responses will go to trash for Saker’s review. Mod

Excuse me nice try and WizOz for my interfering with a little story seen many years ago on 3sat TV a documentary (when such things were still debated) : Somewhere in South America, the Catholic bishop said it is sad that there still are some remote places where local people cannot be converted to Christianity, they continue to have their own faith and knowledge. He had several discussions with the old chief of that tribe for no results. One day, the old chief came to the city again invited by the bishop. They were walking in the pompous garden behind the church then entered the church itself. The old man asked : ” that man there on the cross behind the altar is your God ? ” ” yes “- answered the bishop. “well – said the old man – then if he is your God, why do you left him nailed still, on that cross ? “

γνωθι σεαυτόν! – and is this the prime
And heaven-sprung adage of the olden time! –
Say, canst thou make thyself? – Learn first that trade; –
Haply thou mayst know what thyself had made.
What hast thou, Man, that thou dar’st call thine own? –
What is there in thee, Man, that can be known? –
Dark fluxion, all unfixable by thought,
A phantom dim of past and future wrought,
Vain sister of the worm, – life, death, soul; clod –
Ignore thyself, and strive to know thy God!

And the bishop did not know that his God raised from the dead? Of course the history is invented. Was the documentary shown around Easter, when such ‘debates’ are regularly organized for the edification of people who still believe the ‘official line’ of the Church how things stand with the ‘historical Jesus’ (a Jew, do not forget).

Of course he did know that but the old indian wanted to emphasize that according to their beliefs, the statue of Christ being nailed on the cross is like a black-magic, a continuous punishment, a risen God cannot be crucified.

Of course. The God on the Cross was not risen yet.
But it all sounds to me rather like the Gospel we heard last night:

“And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise the chief priests also mocking, with the scribes, the Pharisees, and the elders, said: He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God” (Matthew 27:39-43).

Jesus was not a Jew. He was a Nazarene. ‘Jews’ were constantly scorned and berated by Jesus who called them ‘The Synagogue of Satan’.
Jews are with some justification not the ‘good guys’ of the good book.

Trump is always changing his position and I am hoping sooner or later he will change to an anti-neocon policy, although his presidency now seems crippled.

In the longer term, I think the question is what will it take to purge the U.S. of its current rulers and find something new. Can a nuclear war or some other catastrophe be avoided during this transition?

I have never agreed with everything Sheikh Imran Hosein has said. He says himself that he could be wrong about somethings. His interpretation of some of the verses of the Quran and the Hadith are not what you would call exactly scholarly.

However, there are many things I have learned from him concerning the fraudulent monetary system to the Anglo-ZIonist empire.

You can take the useful and good from anyone, and still disagree on other things they say or produce. No one is perfect, and this is makes us humans.

Compare her to the little girls at the end of my street, totally dressed up like a moslim matryoshka doll, at the age of about 10 of younger.
You have to be naive, not to know that they may not even chose whom they want to marry at a very young age, let alone to sail the seas.

Well I think, that if you are old enough to marry, then you are old enough to sail.

I think it is blasphemy to restrict a human being from their true (devine) potentials, no mater what Allah thinks about it.

Your comment is illogical. You cant say its blasphemy to restrict some 14 year old girls from sailing around the globe because one size should fit all sizes.
Not many Dutch girls reach their “true potentials”.
The world is by God created with millions of beautiful arts, activities, wisdom and ways of life, so to please everybody who pleases God.
If you want to experience the depth of some of these Gods beauties, you must focus your energy and capabilities on what is available around you, rather than crying about your missed great potential as Hollywood star.
Otherwise you will never be satisfied.

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