On the ‘mosque’ at Ground Zero

Wanting to grasp a firsthand understanding of the debate surrounding the Park51 Muslim community centre (a much more accurate term than a mosque), I visited the site and was greeted by two young pro-mosque demonstrators arguing in favour of religious tolerance and First Amendment rights. They were articulate, passionate, and answered all my questions. Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a leading supporter of the project, would have been proud. Gradually, opponents began to show and peacefully voiced their displeasure with the project. Meanwhile, some of the faithful were praying inside the existing building.

I then made the two-block walk from the Park51 site to Ground Zero. Let me point out that, from the site itself, there is no direct view of Ground Zero. Even once constructed, there would be no direct view of Ground Zero, even from the roof. When you walk to the closest intersection, heading west to Barclay street, you arrive at a corner where you can see construction cranes at Ground Zero. It is at this point that you grasp the proximity of the proposed project and you can better comprehend the opposition to the project. But you can also readily understand the dilemma facing not only New York City, but all of America. The issue is no longer local and it may even have global ramifications, as people everywhere have come to be interested in how the battle plays out.

The debate has heated up recently with Barack Obama rightly intervening in defense of constitutional principles and values, New York Governor David Paterson trying to find a compromise between constitutional rights and the sensitivities of 9/11 victims, and politicians from both major parties trying to seek political advantage or political cover. The spectre of Islamophobia is now the subject of numerous newspaper articles and magazines covers. Polls are showing growing opposition to the community centre, both in the country and in the city, and some individual construction workers have voiced their reluctance to work on the site. Union leaders, dealing with an anemic economic recovery, are avoiding all comment, but there’s a clear discomfort.

The promoters of the project have every right to move ahead, but their opponents seem to have the edge in organizing a resistance that may not be in the spirit of the constitution, yet is legitimate in its own way. Supporters are correct to argue that the War on Terror is not meant to be a war against Islam and it was not Islam that destroyed the twin towers—it was Al Qaeda, using Islam to justify terror. But having spoken with those who lived through 9/11, it is clear the wounds have not healed. To many who lost loved ones (and some were of the Muslim faith ), Ground Zero is sacred shrine. Some remains were never found.

Obama, Bloomberg, Republican Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey, and many others including prominent local faith leaders are on the right side of this issue. The U.S. has gone to war and lost so many loved ones in the defense of liberty and the values that emanate from their Constitution. But sometimes time has a way to lessen the pain and open the way to a reasonable accommodation—a familiar term to Canadians—or, better still, understanding and acceptance. A recent article in the New Yorker related how some American Muslims feel about the growing controversy. The views were not unanimous. Some fear the controversy is being used to prevent the building of other mosques elsewhere in the United States, while others are concerned about extreme statements by mainstream opponents like Newt Gingrich, who clumsily compared Islam to Nazism. Many see it as a test of acceptance and integration within the American mainstream of life.

Maybe it is time for an old-fashioned time out. The solution should ultimately be local and possibly incremental. For instance, the project could be repositioned as an interfaith community center with a mosque included and construction could be delayed until the memorial at Ground Zero is completed on the 10th anniversary of the attack. Such a proposal would be consistent with the basic Constitutional principles that allow the project to go forward and may help solve the dilemma at Ground Zero.

[John Parisella is currently serving as Quebec’s Delegate General in New York City]

I do understand the mixed feelings many seem to have about this, but I think it does matter that this mosque/centre is not "at Ground Zero." Surely we can't call everything in a 2-block radius "ground zero." What if it were 3 blocks away. The opponents of this Centre are talking as if they are building a mosque on the remains of the WTC, and that is not what is happening.

Interesting that the developers of ground zero are planning something like 55,000 square feet of underground retail in what is essentially a graveyard, If I had lost a loved one that would offend me. The God of consumerism must be worshipped.

It is "at Ground Zero". The location was deliberately picked by the organizers because the existing building sustained damage in the 9/11 attack. This is not in dispute, they are on the record as having chosen the location because of the 9/11 damage.

They picked it because it was discounted, because it was damaged, damage that occurred on 9/11 (to an already old decrepit building to begin with). It's disingenuous to say it was specifically because of "911 damage" that it was picked. You said that to make it sound like the 9/11 damage was a point of relish, which it certainly is not.

Maybe the mosque/community centre should be built as already approved and political discourse in America should focus on which party has the better plan for economic recovery and deficit reduction. Mosque-building is the flag-burning of the current election cycle – emotive but trivial, and a distraction from the Republican party's commitment to deficit-fattening tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.

So I've heard. And they've implemented sensible, popular policies that have done too little to get the economy going. The Republicans have used their procedural majority in the Senate to block some other efforts – like support for the 9-11 rescue workers. And the Republicans would like to implement a package of senseless, unpopular policies that will harm the economy. So, clearly, they woudl rather talk about terror mosques coming to your hometown.

The filibuster, my good man, they can block a vote for cloture. Which is what they've done most recently to prevent the extensionof EI benefits and, in somewaht similar fashoion, to prevent billions in additional aid for 9/11 first responders facing health complications.

Style on August 23, 2010 at 1:04 pm

Wow, now you're going off on various tangents.

Using the filibuster is a completely different thing from having a majority. For instance, you asserted "Republican party's commitment to deficit-fattening tax cuts". The filibuster can do nothing for them to maintain the 2001 tax cuts, or to enact new tax cuts.

The republicans can do nothing in this regard. It's completely up to the Democrats to decide if taxes will stay the same or go up. And Republicans can do nothing about it.

Now, on your additional examples, you're being very disingenuous, because the EI extension benefits were passed, despite the Republican objections.

Back to reality please.

s_c_f on August 23, 2010 at 4:16 pm

You've misunderstood my earlier point. America is in an election cycle, the Republican party is committed to deficit fattening tax cuts for wealthy Americans but do not want to campaign on that agenda because it is very unpopular. The Democrats have cut taxes for 95% of Americans and raised them for the wealithiest, which is very popular. So, while in control of Congress, the Democrats have passed sensible, popular policies that help the economy. They have done less than they might have liked because they need to be able to overcome the Republican filibuster in the Senate (which I somewhat facetiously described as a "procedural majority"). Anyway, this is why the Republicans prefer to campaign over terror mosques rather than economic policy.

On EI extension, the Republicans did delay the extension until a new Democratic senator was appointed to fill Byrd's seat. That delay meant the measure, which usually passes on a bipartisan basis when unemployment is over 7.5%, took 11 weeks to pass, let 2 million more Americans lose their insurance and further damaged the economy.

Style on August 23, 2010 at 4:37 pm

Geezus, you sound like a clone of Obama. Get off the campaign trail and speak like a normal human being.
If what the Democrats have done is popular, then they'll win at the ballot box. Everybody and their donkey know that what Democrats have done is NOT popular. That's why everybody knows they're likely gonna lose the House of Reps and they're at risk of losing the Senate too.

Democrats have passed sensible, popular policies that help the economy

What planet do you live on? Everybody and his donkey knows the economy is in horrible shape and has not improved the slightest for the last two years. Get a grip with reality! Just because you say something doesn't mean it's true! You seem to be completely out of your tree! By every rational measure, nothing the Dems have done has helped the economy. There is not a shred of evidence anywhere that they've done anything to help the economy, since every economic indicator is saying things are continuously getting worse.

Back to reality please.

Anyway, I've had it with you. You sound like a politician on the campaign trail, there's no sense talking to you.

s_c_f on August 23, 2010 at 9:56 pm

It would be nice if it worked that way, but you can find polling on support for policies like progressive taxation and stimulus spending that show it's much higher than support for the Democrats. And the economy is in bad shape, of course, the argument is that it would be in worse shape if the Republican policies had been followed (cutting the capital gains tax, for example, doesn't do much for an economy with capital losses). You can certainly find economists who'll set out that analysis for you, but I doubt you'll find that persuasive so I shan't bother digging it up for you.

Style on August 24, 2010 at 8:05 am

Anyway, I repeat, despite your wild tangents:

Democrats have controlled Congress for the last four years – therefore it is impossible for Republicans to be cutting taxes.

That is a fact.

s_c_f on August 23, 2010 at 4:18 pm

A tempest in a teapot, literally.

Al qaeda has long since won, and Americans are just fighting over the wreckage of their country.

Quite hard to dispute this, actually. Bin Laden himself couldn't have scripted the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions, along with their draining of blood and treasure in the US and abroad, any better. This ridiculous mosque debate, and the rise of the hate-spewing Tea Party, is icing on the cake for extremists like him.

" But you can also readily understand the dilemma facing not only New York City, but all of America. The issue is no longer local and it may even have global ramifications, as people everywhere have come to be interested in how the battle plays out."

Another embarrassing chapter in US history, just like resistance to the civil rights movement, internment of the Japanese, McCarthyism, Abu Grahib, Gitmo, and Brittany Speers. The world is watching and shaking its head collectively. It is like watching idiot TV…. Please grow up…please.

I keep hearing that the site is "two blocks" from "Ground Zero", but my understanding is that this reference is to it being two blocks from the edge of WTC Plaza, while it's more like 5-6 blocks north of the actual former site of the North Tower.

Perhaps a Google map with walking directions from the proposed mosque site to the former site of the Twin Towers would provide helpful context. Does anyone know the street address of the proposed mosque site?

It's actually on the site of a Burlington Coat Factory, which took damage from one of the 9/11 aircraft during the attack. Which is why I believe this building is for all intents and purposes part of Ground Zero. The organizers are on the record as deliberately choosing this site because of that damage.

In 2001, in the 9/11 attacks after hijacked Flight 175 penetrated through a tower of The World Trade Center, part of the plane's landing gear and fuselage came out the north side of the tower and crashed through the roof and two of the floors of the Burlington Coat Factory at 45–47 Park Place, between West Broadway and Church Street, (600 feet (180 meters)) north of the former World Trade Center. The plane parts destroyed three floor beams, and severely compromised the building's internal structure. Nine years later the building was part of a national controversy, as efforts to build a Muslim center and mosque at the site as the "Cordoba House" sparked a national controversy.

The reason why Wikipedia is inappropriate for an academic paper is not – as many academics would have you believe – because it can be edited at any time. The reason why Wikipedia is inappropriate for an academic paper is the same reason that every other encyclopedia is inappropriate, because it provides cursory information on a topic. Except in very rare cases, it is not meant to be used as a primary source document.

It is, however, perfectly reasonable to use it as a starting point on a discussion board (assuming one checks the history tab on the article, of course).

From Wikipedia, of all places:

A common view as of 2010 in fields from medicine to technology and a range of social-cultural topics, is that Wikipedia is a valuable research resource and starting point for information and major news events, and articles in many areas are routinely accurate and informative (Military History topics being assessed as "spot on"), but users should take care – as with all general reference works – to check their facts and be aware that mistakes and omissions do occur.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikip…

thanks for telling me that. you learn something new everyday. I appreciate it RunningGag

Amit on August 24, 2010 at 2:37 pm

Well on googlemaps it is definitely 2 blocks from the edge of the "full site," but I couldn't tell exactly how far from either of the specific former towers it is. The address is 51 Park Place, Manhattan.

You could also use Google street view from both 51 Park and the former WTC site to confirm that there is no way to spot either building from the other site. It will also give you a good sense of how the hallowed ground around the WTC is actually used (I think there are strip clubs and porn stores along Park St. itself – but, obviously, porn and sacred memorials go hand in glove…)

Based on all of that, I'd say "two blocks from Ground Zero" is a pretty accurate description actually, even though it's actually about 4 blocks North of the current 1 WTC (about a 4 minute walk) and about 6 blocks from where the North Tower itself actually stood (about a 7 minute walk).

Then speak louder. I have nothing against someone who is a Muslim just because they are Muslim. My "intolerance" pops up when I hear Muslims saying that Islam is peace and tolerance, yet it is Muslims who are killing innocent non-Muslims all over the world, but I don't hear any condemnation about these killings.

"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. The US led sanction against Iraq led to the death of over 500,000 Iraqi children…and when Madeleine Albright…when she was Secretary of State was asked whether this was worth it said it was worth it. What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically, is the fact that the West has not been cognizant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world."

He was answering a question about why the broader Islamic community doesn't do more to stop Muslim fanatics and terrorists. He goes on to say that he's not endorsing the argument in that paragraph but repeating some of the perceptions that make it difficult for moderate Muslims to win the argument within Islam. The full transcript is here: http://www.unisa.edu.au/hawkecentre/events/2005ev…

This exchange comes far down in the discussion. Search for "we tend to forget" and you'll find it, although the prepared speech seemed worth reading too.

Christiane Amanpour interviewed two women yesterday who care deeply about this project (and neither was named Emily!)

Daisy Khan is the wife of the Imam who is leading this Community Centre Venture. The other lady was a Rabbi who leads the nearby Jewish community Council – both have been working for several years to make this project work.

They are BOTH well aware that hysteria – whipped up by racist elements – would emerge during this process. The Rabbi pointed out how many times the proposed building of Synagogues was opposed in the past in America – in New York and close to this location.

They are both committed to ensure that no radical elements ride pickaback on this project – and that for example – fundraisers is transparent and isn’t used by any overseas agencies to attempt to buty control.

Yet Rabble Rousers like Gingrich and Beck and O’Reilly of Fox News act like caricatures of propagandists of an era we thought was long past – whether they wore white sheets or jackboots – and Amercians who ought to know better – salute!

have you personally read the Qur'an, Not Koran by the way…. you have quite simply shown that by not having ever read any of the Qur'an at all (its very obvious the sources from which you educate yourself about this holy book, have no idea how to even spell the word Qur'an, so how much do the sources really know about it? You just simply read and imprinted into your brain what ever you read over the internet about it, and then go and repost it somewhere else. Be smarter, educate yourself, do your own research if your so concerned about what the Qur'an speaks of people maybe try reading an english translation for your self im sure you can google it and find a version. Thanks PreachJohn

Qu'ran/Koran—The difference between transliterated/translated.
I'm sure that Osama Bin Laden and Co. would sharply disagree with you. In fact, you are infidel to these who base their violent, world domination, Wahhabist restoration religion on the Qur'an/Koran.
What I made reference to IS in the Koran, and is fundamental Moslem teaching. Will you deny that Ishmael at Mt. Moriah with Abraham is Ramadan's basic observance? Your obfuscation attempts aren't going unchallenged, at least by me!
it's also obvious to me that you do not know the Holy Bible for yourself. If you did, you would see how antithetical the two collections of writings into One each, that they are. The One revealing the True God, and yours, a VERY different, much later in history, being, as God. Thanks Amit

@PreachJohn, i am posting this comment with my simple understanding of Islam and with no copy/paste of any kind from any website. Ramadan Has nothing to do with Ismael, Muslims celebrate Ramdan because it is the month on which the holy Qur'an was inspired to prophet Muhammad and it is time for Muslims to feel for the needy and the poor of all religions, in this month any good deed is 10 folds where Allah reward followers if they help their brothers in HUMANITY ( that includes non muslims ). Abraham & Ismael relate to Eid Al Adha when Abraham was about to sacrifice his son Ismael but instead was able to sacrifice a ram. Regarding pigs and apes – it was ment few of the descendants of Jacob/Israel who disobeyed Allah and Mosses not all Jews or all the descendants of Jacob. PreachJohn i hope that Allah guides to the right path and remove the hatred out of your heart. Regards

The serious study of the Koran is a definite part for many during Ramadan. And the lie that you repeat is fundamental to that study. That Ishamel was the intended sacrifice by Patriarch Abraham. Therefore, by virtue of the emphasis on study of the Koran during Ramadan, and the events at Mt. Moriah being fundamental to the whole belief system, the lie that it was Ishmael IS reinforced during Ramadan.
The miracle child is Isaac, the seed of promise. Born of Abraham and his wife Sarah, not the concubine Hagar.
'Regarding pigs and apes'—What a pitiful attempt to confuse and obfuscate to say this applies to only a 'few'! Seriously, which Jews are Muslims? Jewish people believe many different things. But very, very few, if any of account 'obey Allah'. Therefore it stands! 'Koran says that 'Jews are descended from apes and pigs'.
May the True Lord Jesus Christ guide you by His Holy Spirit into the revelation of the True God of the Holy Bible.
Not 'Johnny come lately', historically speaking, Allah!

@PreachJohn, i know you are blinded by hatred but it is hard for me and many here to believe that you know Islam better than me or other muslims, you really think that Ramadan is about Ismael ? why should i believe that it was Isaac not Ismael ? why u should be right and i'm wrong ? iF Sarah could not have children at that time and told Abraham to get married to another woman and he did so with Hager the she was jelous of her so asked Abraham to take her to another land and so did he where she went to mecca and asked Allah for food and water for her and baby Ismael and here Allah responded with Zamzam water in mecca the holy land.

so you think Ismael is not blessed ? why ? because he was born to Hager ? Islam believes that all humans are the same, no difference but you believe that Issaac descendants are humans and others are not. Jews & Christans knew that there will be a one last prophet but was surprised to be of Ismael descendant not Isaach and for your information Mr miss informed the Qur'an ( not koran ) never ever said that jews are descneded from apes and pigs and I HEREBY CHALLENGE YOU, it was ment for for the few who betrayed moses. Islam is not an exclusive club for Ismael descendant, it welcomes anyone from any race. STOP the ignorant way to mention that Isaach descnedant are the chosesn poeple and for the record, ISLAM is the fastest growing religion so eat your heart out Mr. ( join jesus coz islam is bad). Islam acknoledge that Jesus was born without a father and it is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an so why do you believe some parts of the Qur'an and don't believe the other parts ? believe me the best way to Preach is when u respect others not to look at them as inferior race Mr. chosen

Cortisone on August 24, 2010 at 7:25 pm

It is written—John 14:6, and this is my personal Saviour Lord Jesus Christ. In John 3:16, the uniquely born Son of the Living God of Israel. I HEREBY CHALLENGE YOU, in the Koran, does this Allah being have any Sons of God? The Holy Bible certainly speaks much of them.
Ah, I thought so. Allah has no such thing as a Son or Sons of God. Therefore the Koran Jesus is
2nd Cor.11: 4, another Jesus. And that which the Apostle Paul of Tarsus wrote by the Spirit applies to you, as recorded in Gal. !:8,9

PreachJohn on August 24, 2010 at 8:36 pm

My Allah is your Allah, there is only one super power in this world which is Allah, he created us to worship him, it is so un logical that this entity ( Allah ) behaves like man, how can you believe that he had a child ? Allah was not born and did not give birth to any one.
Al-Ikhlas (SINCERITY) Say thou: He is Allah the One. Allah, the Independent. He begets not, nor was He begotten. And never there has been anyone co-equal with him
so to answer your question, NO, the Holy Qur'an states CLEARLY that ALLAH have no sons. for the record MR. chosen, there is only ONE Qur'an in the world no matter where you go but there are so many versions of bible with the so many christian faith cults and u can see CLEARLY they have variatio ns between each another.

Cortisone on August 24, 2010 at 9:04 pm

Yes, and there are OVER 70 identifiable Moslem denominations, a little known fact. Sunni and Shiite being numerically the largest. And Sunnis and Shiites kill each other in the Middle Eastern nations. Branding one another and everyone else as heretics worthy of death.
You say the crying shame of Christianity is its many splits? I agree and agonize in the agony, (root of 'contend earnestly in Jude 3') about the many splits. But there is an ongoing solution to this in Acts 3:19-21. A powerful move of God is enveloping the earth, replete with supernatural signs and wonders is extant.Yet, these disgraceful slits can be and should be seen positively.
What do men usually counterfeit the most. Things of value! There is no religion in the world with so many counterfeits, as original and true Christianity!

PreachJohn on August 24, 2010 at 10:05 pm

Verse:079, Al Baqarah – Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. Verse: 120, Al Baqarah – And the Jews will never be pleased with thee, nor the Nazarenes, except thou follow their faith. Say thou: verily the guidance of Allah, –that is the guidance. And of a surety wert thou to follow their desires after that which hath come unto thee of the knowledge, there will be for thee against Allah neither protector nor helper

Cortisone on August 24, 2010 at 9:04 pm

Quran has mentioned a people from amongst the Israelites of old that disobeyed God concerning Sabbath and thus were turned into apes.
And certainly you know of those who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so we said to them, “Be you apes, despised.” (Quran 2:65)
Quran is not alone in this address, Bible has also mentioned the desecration of Sabbath by Israelites, for instance in Ezekiel 20. Nehemiah is also said to have reminded Israelites about God's calamity when their forefathers transgressed limits of the Sabbath:
I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? Didn't your forefathers do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity upon us and upon this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.” (Nehemiah 13:17-18)

I know anabelle, they should get it directly from the source the koran:

Bukhari:V4B52N196"Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah."'"
Qur'an:47:4"So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."
Bukhari:V4B52N50"The Prophet said, 'A single endeavor of fighting in Allah's Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.'"
Noble Qur'an:2:190 Footnote:"Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."
Tabari IX:69"Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us."

Go for it A_READER_ !! Whether you believe and know the True God personally or not, as manifested in and thro the true Lord Jesus Christ bless you for posting the above. Truth sets free!

PreachJohn on August 24, 2010 at 9:43 pm

Absolutely!!!

Nadine Bennett on September 23, 2010 at 2:44 pm

The cartoons would have been a non-issue, if Muslims would have not made such a big deal out of it, nor killed innocent people. Muslims do not respect other religions, so please don't try to act the victim, when all over the world Muslims are killing non-Muslims.

I find myself in the strange position of being further opposed to the Republicans than Parisella. His main thesis, as I understand it, is that both sides have a point, and perhaps there should be a compromise. His rationale is standard Leftist thinking: those who lost loved ones have strong feelings about it, and they have some right not to be offended.

There is no such right, Constitutional or otherwise. People have the right to protest the mosque, but there is no obligation on the part of the landowners to heed those protests. No one has the right not to be offended by others.

If there end up being any legal restrictions placed on the mosque due solely to the offense it causes to the majority of Americans, that will be a major violation of the concept that everyone is equal under the law, and that justice is blind. Feelings should not be a consideration. Just as the Left is wrong to favour prosecuting people for expressing offensive opinions, likewise the mosque-opponents are wrong if they want the mosque legally sanctioned because of the offense it may cause.

Precisely. I heard some spokeswoman for a Muslim American organization on Fox News (I forget the name) who said that she sympathized with the protesters and that in the end "sentiments and being a 'good neighbor' trump constitutional rights"… The Fox News talking head just that this was all dandy, no problem at all.

Republicans need to come up with something more REAL to win an election over. It'd be interesting them trying to buy support over a Mosque Location controversy.. Like seriously, is that what US elections have come down to? It's like a Third World country election conspiracy

Because that would be irrelevant. The relevant point is that it's a place for Muslims to worship and it's in the Pentagon. We call those places mosques. Lower Manhattan should have a nice mix of synagogues and churches too.

Then, by your twisted thinking, contrary to the great body of International Law, Canada should revert to all Native claims of aboriginal ownership?
And please watch, Mr. Blasphemer, just who you call Scum.

You're advocating the same religious intolerance in Saudi Arabia should be done in retaliation to the US, overriding their own Constitution of freedom of religion, not to mention their private property rights because of what Saudi Arabia does in Mecca ? Boy, isn't that inspiring

Oh, oh, is it because the United States guarantees freedom of religion and Saudi Arabia doesn't? They should also ban Muslims from voting, because people don't have that freedom in Saudi Arabia either! And ban them from drinking alcohol. In fact, they should introduce shari'a law, like they do in Saudi Arabia. Ha ha. That'll show them.

The speed at which a certain slice of America is willing to throw out their principles is pretty pathetic. These right wing nutjobs love to spout platitudes about 'freedom of religion', just so long as that religion is christianity. A sad ignorant bunch of rightard hypocrites. The worst part of it is that, while I acknowledge that their are a great many Americans who are simply too ignorant to understand the error of their ways, the 'mainstream' talking heads at Fox News know better, even if they prefer to froth at the mouth on TV to appease their idiot viewers and attract new ones. The fact that this is even a debate says far more about the US and the rot of right-wing ideology, than it does about islam.

Easily amused I see.
Well since you have all those neat wiki built answers why are you bothering me about it on a thread that started out about the ground zero mosque?

I asked you one simple question and all you could do was squeal out wiki links exclamation marks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclamation_mark:An exclamation mark, exclamation point, or bang (!) is a punctuation mark usually used after an interjection or exclamation to indicate strong feelings or high volume, and often marks the end of a sentence. Example: "Watch out!"

Think further attempts at discussion would be pointless.

filter on August 25, 2010 at 12:06 am

facts facts facts sir. i can say i am a candian forces soldier too. for god sakes not everyone is a terrorist, grow-up. read your comment back to yourself and see how pathetic you sound.

Americans are too generous and naïve to think that it's a good idea to build the mosque.
Basically, the Muslims hatred for America…and the mosque being built near 9/11, not a good symbolic gesture. Ironic, mocking.

Far more incendiary posts than MrPitch wrote are here for any to read. I read and reread his post carefully. He lived for a time in Muslim lands. What did he promote but a concept that he perceives as truth, as do most of us.
On what possible grounds is MrPitch's post expunged?
Perhaps I'm missing something in terms of your rules and regs?

Why did you remove my comment Mr. Administrator? Did I assume wrong when I thought McLeans promoted freedom of speech. Are you afraid that such a comment on a McLeans website would draw retaliation from muslims? I don't think I said anything vulgar about anything or anyone in my comment. I simply stated what I thought about islam, the way islam views the West and vice-versa and what I think americans ought to do in response to the muslim threat.
You could at least have the decency and courage of stating why you removed my comment.

I believe this mosque should not be allowed anywhere in the country. Do Muslims let other faiths to openly practice on their countries? Other religions are suppressed. We should stop being stupid and open our eyes. Educate yourself about the danger of Islam. There is no place in this world where these people are and chaos they bring to those countries. This is not about racism; this is a national security issue. I am not American and I don't care what happens there but the danger Islam brings to the world is clear. Read the Koran and the atrocities taught there and only after that you people should comment.

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.It's saying they will feel better upon getting vengeance, doing the same that was done to them: killing their babies by dashing them on the stones."
Psalms 137:9

Good example to point out, during these times Aberhart, see this is from the 'old testament' and since Christianity went through it's reformation a while back, well they don't believe or do this stuff anymore. It's considered old teachings not in keeping with the modern world.

But perhaps they can be a big help for the Muslims to reform the koran, seeing how they've done it already be great experience to draw from.
Glad to have helped.

So why do you have such an interest in furthering the interest of this particular mosque?
It was largly an attack on America and Americans.
Americans of many stripes died that day as well as Canadians – 26 I beleive.

No one has ever claimed 'it was just Christians or just American Christians' where'd you get that from?

The mosque is not a symbol of peace IF Americans are not comfortable with it there.

A_reader_ I dont believe I claimed that anyone said is was just christians either I simply wanted to open the eyes of the few who don't realise that other religions and were attacked. These extremists of religion are in all religions, and use religion as a tool for their mass murders. belonging to islam, or any other religious group and wanting to practice your religion in a holy place is not a crime neither is building a mosque. If you think by stopping these muslims from building there mosque is gonna be a great step in stopping the war on terrorism and extremism, then you should wake up!

Oh please, stop trying to be the victim or deliberately obtuse in this.
YOU stated in your comment ... during .the 911 attacks it wasn't just American Christians killed that day…
HELLO – This is what you started your comment WITH -??

ok, if you can't follow that try this:

It's not about any "other" religions being attack – really that's just warped to think so IMHO.

It's about an attack on American soil against Americans and in two other places as well as in New York.
Americans were attacked that day, it was an attack on America by Islamic extremists.
Since that day, islamic extremist have attacked in Spain, London, Balix2, Beslin, India and etc.

Islamic extremists kill anyone they can, that we all know that so why are you just addressing "the few who might not know" in a sub thread? Think they're reading this far in?
Islamic extremism declared war on us, which camp are you in?
Note: NO OTHER religion is killing in mass, globally like Islamic terrorists are doing today.

In George Orwell's 1984, Big Brother constantly bombarded both Party Members and the proles with propaganda that distracted them from the real issues of the day. Is it possible that elected officials in the United States are using this story to distract the masses from the fact that their economy is on the verge of collapse?

Thanks for posting the link. I watched it. Yes, one low life tried to 'start a fight'. But you conveniently left off mention of the two individuals, plus the tall security type who also intervened. And the friendly conversations he was engaged in later in the clip. And that the black man, wearing headgear worn by certain Muslim denominations, himself said, 'No, nothing happened!'.
Sounds like sensationalizing, muck raking to post this video, without a balanced comment.

Dear Mr. Parisella,
I'm not sure exaclty how ignorant you are but if you know anything at all about Islamic history and how this faith was spread by the sword, and how non-Muslims are 2nd class citizens (at best) in almost every majority-Muslim country, you would understand why people aren't too enthusiastic about Muslim victory shrines going up near ground zero.

The people protesting against the mosque are on the right side of the issue. The onus is on you to justify why you would gamble with the lives or our children and grandchildren and help curse them to an Islam-dominated future by pretending there's nothing wrong with this religion.

Islamaphobia? Sure, anything else? Is there cancerphobia? If they are successful in taking over, little collaborators like you who like to affect an air of tolerance towards that intolerant creed will likely be the first one amputated when they bring in Shariah law.

1)-what would the reaction be if the National Rifle Association held its annual convention in the auditorium of Columbine High School? It seems to me to be the same scenario with the WTC "mosque"; while not all Muslims are terrorists, not all hand guns, etc. are used to murder people.

2)-the entire issue may be moot, as according to an article in the Daily Telegraph, the group wanting to build the mosque has less than $20,000 thus far; whilst they may obtain more money from other sources, it is not an encouraging start for would be developers.

All terrorists are muslims? Really? what about Maoists, ETA, Chechen seperatists, LTTE, just off the top of my not so formidable head.

Sounds to me like you may be equating the word "Terrorist" in your head as "Muslim".

That, I think, is the underlying problem that has been brought to the forefront with this whole Mosque debate.

Islam is not the problem here. Ignorance is. Ignorance on the side of Islamic extremists and ignorance on the side of narrow minded xenophobes – the likes of whom try to compare an entire religion with the nazis.

The groups you mentioned above primarily target a certain group within their vicinity, or their 'government' or the country next door, not world wide.
You know this.

IRA and LTTE do not attack the rest of the world – randomly nor as excessively as islamic terrorism does.
I do equate terrorists with the muslim belief system, as I know this by their actions and their words.
Never say ALL Muslims, that's usually the readers assumption.
I usually use the wording 'muslim terrorists' or 'muslim extremists/radicals/fundamentalists'.

GIve me all the labels you like won't make the facts any different, ignorance within and about Islam is the problem here.

My xenophobe comment was aimed at the many of the people I've seen at the protest site with signs like "Mosque = Hamas" etc. not at you.

And i do agree that ignorance within and about Islam is the problem. (not just Islam though..)

Gibbs on August 24, 2010 at 10:19 pm

I agree that they have a constitutional right to build the center there.

But don't tell me that this center is meant to be a 'peace symbol'.

Any person with common sense would understand that it is a provocative move to build a symbol close to a site that was demolished because of a terrorist act that was so-called inspired by the same symbol. If the builders REALLY intended to reach out to the community to broker trust/peace/tolerance/faith, they would move that building ASAP regardless of their right. People who want to build bridges reach out by refusing to offend, being empathetic, and being conciliatory.

But they have not moved and are stubbornly staying there despite causing more re-offense to the original victims of 9/11. (And yes, we are talking about some Muslim victims who also have written to voice their opposition to this project). Which leads me to believe that this is more of a symbol of triumph and poke in the eye than it is a gesture of building trust between communities.

They can definitely build their mosque there. But it symbolizes anything but peace and building bridges.

911 was very emotional for everybody, especially family members. Therefore don't build the mosque. Would a Japanese Shinto shrine be built beside Pearl Harbour? Would Westeners build a church near ground zero in Hiroshima?
It's not about religion, otherwise no mosques would ever be built in the US. It's about consideration of the feelings of those who lost their families and friends. Common sense. That's all.

Wanting to build a mosque at or near Ground Zero is insensitive to say the least. While I realize that the bombing was an Al Qaeda operation., a lot of people associate it with Islam & the Muslim faith. While the two are not the same, the Al Qaeda fanatics practiced the Muslim religion & professed their deed was in the name of Allah. There must be other locations in New York equally suitable for the location of a Mosque.

Tommy, I don't believe that Estelle said it was unconstitutional to be insensitive, just – insensitive. And considering the violence that is routinely unleashed by Muslims across the globe when they feel that Islam or Mohammed is being treated insensitively, I think posts such as yours are more than a little disingenuous. Look it up, stupid.

I find it quite amusing that ALL religions think that they are the "right" religion and the other religions are "wrong." There are extremists in ALL religions. All this propaganda of falsehood in the news and soon every stupid person on the street will be believing all the propaganda being (intentionally?) spread by few. If you think YOUR religion is so good, please go and dig into your scripture and see what it says about the non-believers. We human beings are the worst animal – emotions that controls the prefrontal cortex is a very dangerous is a very dangerous weapon – it can cause great harm just like it did in Germany, Zaire, Bosnia, etc.

Muslims were made scape Goats . May ALMIGHTY GOD punish those who created enmity with Islam & created 9/11 massacre to defame Islam.
Watch out for perils from GOD : Thunders, Lightening,earthquake.
Thank You

Whether or not there is freedom of religion…we don't condone criminal acts within that freedom. We oppose those criminal acts and find justice for them. Is there justice for families who lost loved ones? Would we examine any group that espouses criminal acts and hatred and bring them to a measure of the law? Since when does freedom of religion enable people to do harm? If the Mafia were told to kill any one who refused their organizational rules…would we see that as being a crime? Even if no one was harmed? Would police be called to intervene or at least investigate? Well that is what Islam says. Kill ALL the infidels. Come on people…use your heads. This is not about a mosque…this is a statement to the world that Islam can do what it wants and will use the constitution to enforce and promote it's ideologies. Stand up to this obvious misuse of the constitution.

Why doesn't everyone just stay in their own country. All these issues I keep hearing about only make me believe that anyone born into the country they have been born in should almost stay there. Having Muslims build in America and US build in the Middle East is only progressing the problem. The middle east should back off from the west and the west should back off from the east. All problems in this world stem from everyones own opinions. I say let the Middle East do what they want…..in the Middle East. And the Americans do what they want….in America. Why is everyone in the world trying to bring they're ideas and stupid religions everywhere they go. Religion is non-sense, a social crutch that only weakens and oppresses the masses.

There is a difference from being a spritiual person and a religious goon. I have lost faith in humanity because everyone on this Earth is UNCONSCIOUS about EVERYTHING.

Because Al-quaeda killed in the name of Allah, and because Al-quaeda is Muslim, therefore Muslims are evil is like saying all Catholics are evil. During the crusades, thousands of Catholics burned, pillaged, and killed in the name of the Pope. Also, the K.K.K. spreads white supremacy "in the name of Christianity." You can't make a blanket statement like this; it just is not true. Yet people are so upset over the actions of a small group of religious extremists and then blaming the entire religion. Most religions talk of peace, but many have had times of violence where they killed in the name of their Lord; almost all religions have some sort of extremists.

How far away is "at ground zero?" Where would it be "right" to build a mosque? 3 blocks away? 5 blocks away? 10? Where do you draw the line? Rather than saying Muslims "can't" build a Mosque there, how about finding them a place they "can."

Religious tolerance is the way to the future, a place New York doesn't seem to be headed right now.

Atheism is the wave of the future. Get over mythology. Civilization has supplanted mythology as any historical record of mankind will tell you; all gods in every generation were false imaginative story books for the uneducated who had nothing but belief to rely on, including religious exorcisms for neurological epilepsy attacks. Still practiced today for god's sakes.

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