DufferIf Vettel hadn't have been shunted off last race he'd be smashing MW in points despite being down a couple of tenths in qually.
I tip Vettel to finish in front of Mark again here. All this gloating and putting down of Seb will only come back to bite us.

Webber finished in 4th and Vettel finished in 5th,...You were saying Duffer.

Lol - no he didn't - he just nicked it the fact that he stopped once more doesn't give him a 25 second advantage - the time spent in the extra stop gave him fresher rubber, which means he was a little bit faster over the race difference.

sorry growler but i don't buy that argument in full at all. the same option was there for vettel and he chose not run it. in actual elapsed track time webber did substantially outdrive vettel despite the closeness of the finish.

sorry growler but i don't buy that argument in full at all. the same option was there for vettel and he chose not run it. in actual elapsed track time webber did substantially outdrive vettel despite the closeness of the finish.

It is not a case of "buying it" - it is a fact. I was arguing against Whitey's declaration that in reality Webber beat Seb by 25secs. This is not true. They both travelled the same distance (Seb actually went a bit further, but we'll ignore that). Mark actually beat Seb by 2.559 seconds.

K1sorry growler but i don't buy that argument in full at all. the same option was there for vettel and he chose not run it. in actual elapsed track time webber did substantially outdrive vettel despite the closeness of the finish.

A favorite Andretti quote of mine is opinions are like @ssholes and everyone has one.

kenji this deserved a thread because? We'll ignore that fact that Whitey could have settled his pro antipodean dispute in private with another antipodean.

growler, consider this. webber made three stops which at approx 25secs per stop equal 75 secs, off track. vettel made two stops which equals 50 secs, ergo webber had to make up a total of 27.5 secs to take fourth place which he did.

webber must have consistently banged in faster laps to overcome this deficiency. to me that says he 'outdrove' vettel. i may be seeing this differently to you. where have i gone wrong with the math?

He had more time on fresher tyres. Pretty basic F1 stuff really. Before the race the prediction was that the 2 stop and 3 stop race would be about the same in terms of overall time. That's because the 3 stopper has an extra set of tyres so he can push harder for longer.

'he had more time on fresher tyres'. actually he had less time on track because he had a 27.5 sec deficit to recover which he did...admirably.

your smarta$$ comment actually sits well with me. i would rather see races won or lost on track than artificial results posted due to races being won or lost in the pits.

with all the safety measures in place the FIA let races be run where if anyone strays off the racing line for whatever reason they risk a serious accident as the marbles are now worse than ever. the images shown during the race were quite unbelievable.

The teams worked this all out before the race, so I'm having trouble grasping your point. The amount of tyre changes you do is similar to having a lighter fuel load back when we had refuelling.

At 2-stop and a 3-stop were simulated to end up at the end of the race within a few seconds of each other (track position at the end to the 2-stopper, speed to the 3-stopper). This is obviously done without any variable for the driver, funnily enough not with the 3-stopper having to put in a super human effort to make up 25 seconds that are just stolen from him for no benefit...

Webs does look a bit like Christopher Reeve though. Put him in a red cape with his undercrackers outside his racing suit and he could do anything.

K1, I think you have some issues with admitting you are just plain wrong mate. As LH says, the simulation was that the two strategies would get you to the finish line at about the same time give or take a second or so. Who was driving makes no difference. Time spent in the pits is made up by having fresh tyres for more laps. I suspect you know all this but as usual, you can't climb down and admit you are wrong and you will argue and argue until you look ridiculous (which you will now accuse me of looking).

Vettel chose the 2 stopper as a 3 stop means you are dropping back into slower traffic more often and you have to be confident you can get past them, like Jenson did. Mark couldn't pass the slower cars as easily so his 3 stopper didn't pay off. That's it really. Hard to compare the 2 races although Seb made up many more places than Mark.

If one strategy was faster than the other then they both would have been on the same strategy - obviously there was @#$%& all difference in them so it was 50/50. At the end of the race Webber finished ahead of Vettel because at that point in the race he had a faster car and was able to pull off the pass - end of story. Only the results count at the end of the day - you don't have to write down how you do it.

ozzy you are quite right on some points and you are equally quite wrong on others.i am fully aware of the differences between fresher tyres on a three stopper but there was still a 25sec deficit which webber had to make up. what i actually said, if you care to actually reread what i posted, was that webber 'outdrove' vettel, meaning faster laps. he did that and finished up 2,5 secs ahead of vettel

i have no problem with acknowledging a point when i am wrong. i think also that you should reciprocate.

Yes, he made up the 25 seconds because he had 3 sets of tyres. That's the point everyone is trying to get through to you. It's not a talent thing. It would be the same for any driver. Webber didn't make any better use of his car than Vettel. End of story.

I think they both got pretty much everything out of the strategies they were on.

Mark earned the grid advantage and the subsequent lap 1 time gain he got by default with that, and that was the difference. Mark had a 5 second lead over Seb after lap 1, and 4 slower cars as traffic between them, and by the end of the race Seb was closer and only a single position behind. Hard to make an argument either way about who out-drove who in the race. Qually pretty much sealed this one I think and Mark did the job there. Pity about the mistakes, would've been nice to grab a podium

Awful starts from both, Seb admitted his brain fade, Mark just his usual flop of some stage of the getaway; -9 before T1 apex in 3 races, urgh.

correct me if i am wrong ozz but vettel, by running a two stopper, relied upon track position to gain over the three stoppers otherwise why do it?

whereas webber lost track positions due to his extra stop and therefore had to rely on many factors to regain track positions. i suggest you read webbers interview re his strategy where he outlines the difficulties he had. he had to make many passing moves if he was to make the strategy work. the red bull did not have straight line speed upon which combined with the DRS would enable him to make some of those passes necessary.

in his own words this meant that he had to make most of his passes off the straight and this led him into possible dangers with the the profusion of marbles. he goes on to outline all the other issues which needed to be overcome as well.

obviously both strategies would've been worked over in detail. the two stopper was the safest route and the three stopper would have to embrace a lot more difficult probabilities. webbers passing moves were some of the very best i have seen and he did the business rather well, all things considered. as for vettel being more convincing in the race....you have to be dreaming.

Please remind me of the footnote re. talent K1, I must have missed this.

What you seem to be saying in your last post is that Vettel chose the easy option to make himself look good, whereas Mark chose the difficult hero option. Damn, it's tough but pure aussie grit can win the day. Like Chuck Norris he set himself an impossible target but his sturdy chin got him through.

I can tell you that Webber would have chosen the option, 2 or 3 stops which he and his engineers felt BEFORE the race would give him the most benefit. Same with Vettel and every other driver on the grid. Maybe he chose wrong, maybe not, we'll never really know.

But to say that he had the more difficult strategy and was some kind of hero to overcome it is well...

If he should have chosen 2 stops then he and his engineers made a mistake. End of. Very difficult choice I'm sure and easy after the fact but you seem to be saying he is some kind of hero because he did OK with a rubbish strategy.

The fact is that for the 3rd race in a row this year, Vettel was better in the race. It's closer than 2011 but Mark is not beating him yet.

SydneyF1FanI think Seb did pretty well to survive his long last stint on bald tyres.
As he admitted, he was a sitting duck in the last few laps and did his best to defend his position. Pretty good result from his shocking start.

as a further footnote to this thread, i read on james allens site that the two stopper race sim indicated that that strategy was approximately 7 secs faster than a three stopper. the only caveat was that the tyres would be at the end of their life and that could wreck the two stop strategy. interesting, no?

Interesting in that it played out pretty much exactly like that? Seb was 5 seconds back from Mark after lap 1 and was prolly 3ish secs ahead, then his tyres went which was the risk. I don't think he had an ideal split with his 2-stop strat, the first stop was a bit early.

it will be interesting tom see what strategy is employed in bahrein. the fastest seems to be a three stopper with the first stint on soft and the last two on the medium. given the high ambient a two stopper would be extremely 'ambitious'.

exactement, mon ami. apparently red bull will be running the webber spec exhaust on both cars, or at least that is what some people are saying.

if so then it will be once again very interesting to see what the differences there are between webber and vettel post china evaluation. i guess the main question will be, have they tweaked the system to bring the handling back to vettels style in any way. roll on.

the engineers who design systems wont give a toss, they will want the fastest spec on the car regardless. anyways just my opinion

Mark WEBBER 9 hit wonder :-)

Should have been 12 wins except vettel stuffed up
Japan 2007- vettel runs into back of webber during SC ...WTF
Turkey 2010- vettel decides to drive into webber
Malaysia 2013- vettel decides he is just too awesome for team rules
I am a proud Mark Webber Fan
I am also proud that we won the war
I am also a Carlton supporter
I think, therfore i am!

Should have been 12 wins except vettel stuffed up
Japan 2007- vettel runs into back of webber during SC ...WTF
Turkey 2010- vettel decides to drive into webber
Malaysia 2013- vettel decides he is just too awesome for team rules
I am a proud Mark Webber Fan
I am also proud that we won the war
I am also a Carlton supporter
I think, therfore i am!

Come on K1, you are not going to hold anyone to predictions are you? You spent the whole pre-season saying how it was impossible to predict the form, even thought the concensus has totally come true (Maccca good, RBR struggling a little but still fast, Ferrari junk, Merc fast but flakey, Sauber and Williams looking stronger). I think the only real red herrings from pre-season were Force India and Torro Rosso.

Predictions are fun, especially in F1 2012. Don't ruin it it by calling people up on it after the fact.

hahaha ozzie, check it out. i said that i wouldn't make any predictions and i also said that anyone who did would be hard pressed to know or predict any reasoned outcomes based on scant information.

now that we are three, soon to be four, races in it is possible to begin to see a 'direction'. i think maybe i was right. duffer suitably proved my point as his prediction, after only two races [got it right that time] was half a$$ed.

actually chaps, wickionary gives 'bahrein' as an alternative spelling, as a proper noun. when i was there very many years ago that is how i spelled the word...and i still do. so what! doesn't alter the fact that your arguments are low brow does it?

so should i just revert back to calling Australia , New South Wales, i mean the whole land was known and named that so where the hell is Australia oh i mean New South Wales

Mark WEBBER 9 hit wonder :-)

Should have been 12 wins except vettel stuffed up
Japan 2007- vettel runs into back of webber during SC ...WTF
Turkey 2010- vettel decides to drive into webber
Malaysia 2013- vettel decides he is just too awesome for team rules
I am a proud Mark Webber Fan
I am also proud that we won the war
I am also a Carlton supporter
I think, therfore i am!

Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically. If the code is hard to read, then just try to guess it right. If you enter the wrong code, a new image is created and you get another chance to enter it right.

Enter code:

We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment.
We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals.
We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards.
If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing
abuse@sportnetwork.net