The idea is being floated and seriously being considered .... a combined tasking of a single platform being the AWACS and the aft portion of the airplane having tanks for refuelling ......

Guess somebody has been reading this forum too much

@vstol jockey I am not aware you had floated this idea but it seems to have tickled some imagination and left people flabbergasted .... all the best and put a copyright on your idea.

Meanwhile, indecision will ensure that in another 7 years, IAF will be hard pressed for Air Dominance, forget Air supremacy against PAF .. leave alone two front.

The worst possible governments have come ... UPA1 & 2 and now Modi, the latter has ensured that he has projected his image as being anti-forces already - a thought cutting across middle and senior ranking commanders across all services.

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I did mention it in one of the threads wherein I had opposed the purchase of new airframes for conversi0n to tankers and AWACs. I had also discussed that old A330 airframe wings had plumbing for 3rd & 4th engine which allows them to be readily converted to tankers as the wings are already strengthened.

My grapevine sources tell me that there is new idea in town which is gaining traction as we speak. A defence PSU has come up with the brilliant idea of making a refueller and AWACS on board a single platform!!!!

And they want to try it out with 04 x A330 which are likely to come in .. if the present RM does not develop cold feet like his predecessor (the CM) and the one prior to him .. the great Antony, over single vendor situation.

And the gem ... Il-78s are hardly flying nowadays due to severe airframe damage sustained in a halestorm as MoD and MoF did not authorise any hangars for them!!!

What will be the effective fuel storage for refuelling purpose with this combination ?

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Imagine .. somewhere over Ahmedabad there is a requirement for refuelling and at Firozepur you need AWACS ...

And there are only 4 platforms for whole of India

"Aap kataar mein hain, kripya pratiksha karein"

Oh by the ways, you would have been a good add on last night, where I was sitting. You would have enjoyed listening to the details of A-50 .. and shocked by the exaggerations you have heard and repeated

Oh by the ways, you would have been a good add on last night, where I was sitting. You would have enjoyed listening to the details of A-50 .. and shocked by the exaggerations you have heard and repeated

What will be the effective fuel storage for refuelling purpose with this combination ?

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Initially A-330 MRTT was supposed to be based on A-330-200 freighter but Airbus found that the Pax model itself offers better value for money as the huge fuel capacity of A330 cud be enhanced with internal fuel tanks located in main cabin and part of the cabin used as troop transporter. Now what I had suggested was that we can use this space for troops to have AWAC systems in place. India needs about 6-8 AWACs more and same number of refuelers also making a total of 12-16 such airframes. But if we combine the two, we will need just about 75% of the numbers.

This problem will be resolved as soon as, all AWACS and AEW&C will get inducted.

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Young man, you do not read. And when you read, you do not think. Head back .. read carefully what I have written! Learn to understand with minimal words written, it is boring to explain everything . Only 04 x A330s ... no IL78s flying ... what does that make you understand!!!!!

Just like I told you not to troll ... yet.

But you just could not keep it with you and had to post it publicly ... how old are you .. nay young? 20?

Now imagine you have refueling and AWAC available together at both places at the same time.

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Can't.

As the number of platforms will remain in 4 to 6. And imagine multiple theatres requiring at the rate of 1 AWACS in station and ! in back up.

I sincerely hope that we do not do this .. as we are looking at the Integrated Battle Groups, which will be along the Brigade Sized forces fighting directly in control of the Corps concerned, which will be occupying 200-250 Km frontage and will need a dedicated AWACS providing C3ISR coverage as also coordinating with various FAOs and GLOs for strike package/air interdiction.

Then the admixture of separate strike/air dominance missions ..... and two fronts!!!

As the number of platforms will remain in 4 to 6. And imagine multiple theatres requiring at the rate of 1 AWACS in station and ! in back up.

I sincerely hope that we do not do this .. as we are looking at the Integrated Battle Groups, which will be along the Brigade Sized forces fighting directly in control of the Corps concerned, which will be occupying 200-250 Km frontage and will need a dedicated AWACS providing C3ISR coverage as also coordinating with various FAOs and GLOs for strike package/air interdiction.

Then the admixture of separate strike/air dominance missions ..... and two fronts!!!

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No. the number will be above 10 for sure when you combine the two. A330-200 can stay airborne for over 16hrs without refueling on its normal fuel only and with lower deck compartments and part of main deck converted to fuel tanks, it can not only stay airborne longer but also deliver fuel to other aircraft.
For the 250-300 Km frontage of a corps and round the clock top coverage, we will need 2-3 AWACs with a combination of main big birds like Phalcons and DRDO developed smaller AWACs. Its the DRDO developed AWAC which will be actually used for providing cover to Corps. The big birds will have bigger area to control. These birds do about 13 kms/min in loiter setting and 16kms/min in cruise at 36K feet. They follow race course holding pattern with leg time of over 10 mins.

No. the number will be above 10 for sure when you combine the two. A330-200 can stay airborne for over 16hrs without refueling on its normal fuel only and with lower deck compartments and part of main deck converted to fuel tanks, it can not only stay airborne longer but also deliver fuel to other aircraft.
For the 250-300 Km frontage of a corps and round the clock top coverage, we will need 2-3 AWACs with a combination of main big birds like Phalcons and DRDO developed smaller AWACs. Its the DRDO developed AWAC which will be actually used for providing cover to Corps. The big birds will have bigger area to control. These birds do about 13 kms/min in loiter setting and 16kms/min in cruise at 36K feet. They follow race course holding pattern with leg time of over 10 mins.

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Well, let us just say that I know of this from the horse's mouth .....

Initially A-330 MRTT was supposed to be based on A-330-200 freighter but Airbus found that the Pax model itself offers better value for money as the huge fuel capacity of A330 cud be enhanced with internal fuel tanks located in main cabin and part of the cabin used as troop transporter. Now what I had suggested was that we can use this space for troops to have AWAC systems in place. India needs about 6-8 AWACs more and same number of refuelers also making a total of 12-16 such airframes. But if we combine the two, we will need just about 75% of the numbers.

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What will be approx capacity as refueller with this combo?

The A330 MRTT has a maximum fuel capacity of 111,000 kg (245,000 lb) without the use of additional fuel tanks, which leaves space for the carriage of 45,000 kg (99,000 lb) of additional cargo.

Young man, you do not read. And when you read, you do not think. Head back .. read carefully what I have written! Learn to understand with minimal words written, it is boring to explain everything . Only 04 x A330s ... no IL78s flying ... what does that make you understand!!!!!

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I imagine with the scene when the requirement of AWACS will be fulfilled. and as per best of my knowledge, DRDO has a plan of 6 A330s with option of 3 more.

but when we combine AWACS+MRTT, that will give a number between 6-8 as IAF asked for awacs of this class .
still we need some dedicated MRTT because present PHALCONs (3+2) and DRDO AEW&C can't be modified as refuellers. isn't it?

A330-200 has a starting cruise fuel flow of about six tons/hr at full load and its first optimum cruise altitude at this load is about FL310. As the fuel burns and it reaches mid cruise weight, it rises to its optimum FL-380 and cruise fuel flow settles down to 5 tons/hr. So you can safely assume a 5.5ton/hr as bench mark fuel consumption/hr to calculate how long it can remain airborne with standard reserves. And to tell another example, SU-30MKI will need about 11 tons for full top up in air.
so a combination of A330-200 MRTT+AWAC can stay on station for over 12hrs and yet refuel about four SU-30MKI to full capacity. Normally for ingress, we top up about 200kms from enemy airspace. so if a SU-30MKI takes off from Gwalior for a strike in POK, it wud have consumed just about one hour flying time fuel or about 1/3rd of its full capacity.