Wednesday, October 31, 2007

Church Endorses Message of Hate?

Outraged Jewish groups are demanding Edward Cardinal Egan speak out against Nazi-glorifying rockers set to take the stage Friday night in a Catholic Church-owned concert hall.

Croatian singer Marko Perkovic and his band Thompson extol ethnic cleansing - and their fans often greet them with the Nazi salute.

Now they're taking that message to a stage in the community center adjoining the Croatian Church of St. Cyril & Methodius on 10th Ave. in midtown.

...Thompson frontman Perkovic is hugely popular in his native Croatia, where thousands turn out for his shows, many wearing the black caps of the country's vicious Nazi-era military regime, the Ustasha.

Critics say Perkovic's ultranationalist act glorifies those Nazi ties, and both the Netherlands and Canada have banned him.

That he's been permitted to appear at a Catholic church in the heart of New York City left several prominent Jewish leaders fuming Tuesday.

"They should know better," said Abraham Foxman, director of the Anti-Defamation League. "People should not go to a church to hear hatred or the glorification of Nazism. No place of worship should host it or welcome it."

Well, yeah. I don't expect or want the band to be banned outright in this country - as has occurred in Canada and the Netherlands. But the fact that a church can be so clueless as to host an act that glorifies Nazism is stunning. I am holding on to hope that the church booked the act not knowing anything about their sympathies, and that now that it has been brought to their attention, they will do the right thing. It's one thing for this country to allow this band a forum that allows this group to freely express themselves, no matter how offensive I might find their views. It's another thing entirely for that freedom of expression to take place in a house of worship, with what seems like tacit approval from at least some members of the Catholic Church. Here's hoping the church has the good sense to politely ask the group to find a new, non-religious venue.

There is the Catholic Church as a hierarchical religion and then there is this particular church, which may be Catholic in denomination but is generally peopled by a congregation with a long ingrained anti-semitic history, anti "other" history. I am not going to be nice enough to think that the pastors of this church in Manhattan did not know the content of the music played by this singer. I'm sure they did, and I am also sure that they thought nothing of it, given that this is how they were brought up.

It is up to the Cardinal to explain to this church that here in America that type of musical presentation is not acceptable in a church venue. Yes, there is freedom of expression in the US, but churches are also free to ban music that contravenes Catholic teachings in general.

Um, anon 9:25? I'm assuming your comment is satiric? It's pretty clear that there is a huge difference between government censorship and individual organizations choosing to be responsible when it comes to endorsing hate.

You remember that game 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon? The idea was to get from some person with absolutely no connection to him and show in seven steps how they were related. Just why is it that every topic on this blog is going to get connected to Greenbaum one way or the other? Sure enough the first anonymous commenter got from a Croatian nazi anti-semite to Greenbaum, and it didn't even take 7 degrees. Give it a rest!

If these Croatians are really Nazis, then the church is the best place for them to appear. Here they have the opportunity to hear the life changing good news of salvation through Jesus Christ and repent of their sinful ways.

And you wouldn't find fault with a "non-religious venue" that chose to have them appear?

If a non-religious venue were to allow them to appear, it would be upsetting, yes. But it's not really comparable to having them appear in a building owned and operated by an organized religious group - a group that ostensibly (and hopefully) does not endorse the racist views of this group.

Those who own the venue have a right and an ethical obligation to not host anything which conflicts with their positions to avoid lending any sign of their support by way of being the ones who allowed it to happen under their roof.

Only a host/owner who is an openly amoral weasel has no obligation although existentially they might really be obligated only to host nihilist events/acts.

Maybe a blind trust has no obligation but that's not the case here.

OM is right. They should not allow the use of their property for this.

Orthomom...your doing the job of the Nazis....your having your own kind dig there own holes...do you have any idea what this site is doing to people allover the country??..Do you?...your taking a secluded quite area Surrounded by water with little means of access and making it very vulnerable to sick people!...there are thousands of people who work for google...and everybody knows someone...you should watch your back...and you have four children...what are you doing?

Anonymous 7:35,While free speech may be protected, as the OM vs. Greenbaum case confirmed, your comments go far over the line of free speech into an area that is not protected--making threats against a person and insinuating that OM's four kids are also included within the threat is not an example of free speech, nor is it protected. In such a case I believe that Google would give up the identity of Anonymous with no problem. And oh what a favor they would be doing the rest of us.

"making threats against a person and insinuating that OM's four kids are also included within the threat is not an example of free speech, nor is it protected"

Funny, I didn't read it that way at all, I read it as a warning to someone about the real world outside of this oh so anonymous blog world. I guess speech can be taken several different ways...wow, how about that.

Anonymous 2:49, you may see it how you want but it is how the law and the courts see it that are important. Telling someone to "watch their back" coupled with "you have four children" is not a benign statement, nor does it comprise a simple warning. There is import in words that goes beyond what we thought we were saying and which deals with what we actually said.

Hmmm.if this is an eastern catholic or similarly situated "church" within the Catholic Church...Cardinal Egan may not have jurisdiction. If that is the case, he surely could lean on the primate who does...but may not be able to force his hand in time.

Well it appears it is within Egan's jurisdiction although I'm not sure he will act quick enough. I agree with Orthomom and I don't think she is a hypocrite. Assuming everything reported about the band is true. Which wouldn't suprise me.

Well it appears it is within Egan's jurisdiction although I'm not sure he will act quick enough. I agree with Orthomom and I don't think she is a hypocrite. Assuming everything reported about the band is true. Which wouldn't suprise me.

7:15 PM"

Speaking as a card carrying Roman Catholic, I certainly wouldn't want, or expect the Church to allow, any sort of Nazi type things in a church.

Some quick research shows me that the church itself has always been owned by the Archdiocese of NY and was known as St Raphael's parish. At some point in the early 70s a Croation Catholic parish relocated here and it became of St. Cyril & Methodius. The parish is listed on the diocesan website with all the other parishes so I don't think it's an Eastern Orthodox church.

The concert, however, in not at the church. It's at the Croatian Cultural Center which appears to be a completely separate building on the church property. If this is an organization that leases an unused parish building, which is very common, then the Archdiocese would really have no real say over any legal use of the property.

It's like if the Hempstead Public Schools, which leases a Catholic school from the Diocese of Rockville Centre for an early childhood center, decided to make it a high school annex, and was giving out birth control to the students. Sure the bishop would be moaning and having a press conference, and sure the diocese could pass on renewing the lease, but there would still be condoms in the nurses office.

I have to assume that either this is the case, or that the whole Nazi thing is not really true. Unless the Cardinal has lost his marbles, because he certainly has the unilateral authority to control any and all activities on any property controlled by the Archdiocese.

Good points Anon Roman Catholic. But in these kind of ethnic parishes, the same parish "community" is typically involved in the cultural center, and, moreover, often the local parish priest tends to be "associated" with it through involvement in the broader Croatian community activities. I agree that the Archdiocese may have no formal or legal say, but they could press the local priest who could press the community center...because this will reflect on the Catholic Church by association. Probably too late for that sort of indirect pressure to have an effect.

Good points Anon Roman Catholic. But in these kind of ethnic parishes, the same parish "community" is typically involved in the cultural center, and, moreover, often the local parish priest tends to be "associated" with it through involvement in the broader Croatian community activities. I agree that the Archdiocese may have no formal or legal say, but they could press the local priest who could press the community center...because this will reflect on the Catholic Church by association. Probably too late for that sort of indirect pressure to have an effect.

1:25 PM"

Oh, I agree 100%. The cultural center is probably financially and administratively separate from the parish yet many of the people are the same, along with people from the Croatian community throughout the area. Maybe all over the city.

If the Archdiocese really wanted to squeeze them it could. Heck, if the Cardinal wanted to squeeze the Governor he could. The Archbishop of NY, whoever it is at any given time is, shall we say, a man of power and influence. Religious, political and financial.

I don't know anything about this band. Perhaps this is a big to do about nothing. I hope so. There's enough screwballs in the big city.

Why is it that everyone wants to "squeeze" this community center over a concert (albeit one people here don't like), but nobody ever says anything to the to the loosely referred to as the Kosher Mafia who tell store owners that if they don't close on Saturdays they will boycott and put them out of business? These people are a lot closer to home, you all know who they are and yet nothing is ever said, I can only reason that these people must be supported by your community. How sad to constantly attack outside of your community when you can't even police your own.

"How sad to constantly attack outside of your community when you can't even police your own."

Usually it's the offended party protesting. If a allegedly Nazi group holds a performance, one would expect Jews to protest. If shopkeepers are being pressured, then you would expect THEM to be protesting.

I think it's safe to say that over 95% of Orthodox Jews have never demanded a business person close on Saturday or themselves been victims of the "kosher mafia." So why would they have any interest?

Don't take this to mean that I don't believe pressure is put on store owners. I know two people that have gone as far as to move their business elsewhere. Both however were Jewish.

Sure 'cause I am sure the storekeepers civic organization can help set up a march, give me a break, in this town? It would be like opening in Little Italy and telling the people you don't like Italians.

Sure 'cause I am sure the storekeepers civic organization can help set up a march, give me a break, in this town? It would be like opening in Little Italy and telling the people you don't like Italians.

Anon you said: It would be like opening in Little Italy and telling the people you don't like Italians.

Right and why would you do that in Little Italy. Per that logic then I am not as sympathetic...in commerce it is simply a case of knowing what your market is and where you are...if the shopkeeper was there first and the orthodox community moved in...then I have more sympathy. Otherwise you are in an orthodox community and you know that is part of the community- at least one part of it.

Over the weekend I went to the Thompson website and frankly I think Orthomom over reacted a bit to the concert. Their band leader is merely a good Croatian patriot who loves and puts his country first. That's something we as American Jews can learn from!

Too bad you didn't fight the nazis then like you do now then maybe things would have been different. The downside is then we would have a lot more you and you might have taken over the whole country instead of just new york