dohboi wrote:Nice fantasies, Ibon, but of course there are all sorts of democracies that are much more democratic than ours that operate quite well in much more densely populated spaces than ours. Up until '89, sparsely populated Mongolia had just as authoritarian a government as China...

But don't let a plethora of facts get in the way of a fun, armchair theory!

Anyway, all pretty far off topic, I guess.

What is interesting in these discussions is to channel these different currents of thoughts that you find in the collective and recognize them in yourself. Few of us are as ideologically pure as Cog for example. I can contain the contradiction of disparate opposite view points simply because these are voices in the collective and to be totally honest these are voices that I resonate with.

It is completely consistent when discussing the conundrum that you will have contradictory voices at the same time running through your head.

And this is anything but off topic actually because at the end of the day the trajectory forward will have far less to do with science and far more to do with which of the many currents of voices in the collective rises and dominates.

The sentiments I expressed in my last couple of posts have a fairly good probability to one day dominate.

To be specific, will America submit to collectivist self regulation as imposed by some UN climate accord abandoning libertarian individual free will OR will they bite down hard and prefer to continue to consume with abandon as a non negotiable way of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Dohboi, which choice do you see most likely to occur? And you think this is off topic?

As an ecologist free of any nationalistic loyalties, and seeing this from a pure ecological point of view, I am somewhat ambiguous as to which option will ultimately be better for the planet.

Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Apeblog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/website: http://www.mounttotumas.com

Of course, GW is...global, so anything that happens on the globe is I suppose relevant

And this is a more pleasant kind of OT than the usual ones...nukes or or lost in space...

What is most likely? Oh, that we continue on furiously making things worse in all sorts of ways while coming up with ever more ingenious rationalizations for our irresponsible actions... pretty much what you see around here nearly every day.

But average American's ability to consume much of anything will be going down, most likely. That won't help much, though, because the ability of the richest to consume will be (and has been) going up even faster.

Meanwhile, as long as they can do at least some of their work, scientists will continue to be surprised that things are going faster (hotter, more intensely...) than they thought possible on most of the climate fronts.

But my big, big prediction for next year is that Plant will do a 180 and start praising to high heaven the mighty O and all that he has done!!! Oh, and pigs will begin to fly around then, too!

A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db

dohboi wrote:my big, big prediction for next year is that Plant will do a 180 and start praising to high heaven the mighty O and all that he has done!!!

If you can name something good he did I'll take it under consideration.

Just this morning NPR news had a story on the status of the law suit filed in 2016 asking the courts to declare Obama's war in Syria illegal. Obama, of course, made the absurd and unconstitutional claim that he had the legal authority to start and wage new wars in Libya and Syria and start another war in Iraq without getting any further congressional approval. Three undeclared and unconstitutional wars by Obama was bad enough----we don't need any future unconstitutional wars.

The NPR interviewer made the point that if Obama's subversion of the US Constitution is allowed to stand, then Trump or any future president will be able to drag the US into any wars anywhere they want without ever getting Congressional approval, just like Obama did.

dohboi wrote:my big, big prediction for next year is that Plant will do a 180 and start praising to high heaven the mighty O and all that he has done!!!

If you can name something good he did I'll take it under consideration.

Just this morning NPR news had a story on the status of the law suit filed in 2016 asking the courts to declare Obama's war in Syria illegal. Obama, of course, made the absurd and unconstitutional claim that he had the legal authority to start and wage new wars in Libya and Syria and start another war in Iraq without getting any further congressional approval. Three undeclared and unconstitutional wars by Obama was bad enough----we don't need any future unconstitutional wars.

The NPR interviewer made the point that if Obama's subversion of the US Constitution is allowed to stand, then Trump or any future president will be able to drag the US into any wars anywhere they want without ever getting Congressional approval, just like Obama did.

1 – Rescued the country from the Great Recession, cutting the unemployment rate from 10% to 4.7% over six years

I guess. If you believe the unemployment numbers. And the recovery was the slowest ever seen---its almost like Obama's policies were designed to slow the recovery.

2 – Signed the Affordable Care Act which provided health insurance to over 20 million uninsured Americans

I guess. Except the Affordable Care Act is so poorly designed that its going bankrupt. Insurers are pulling ut of state after state and Insurance rates are going up 20-50% per year for people who don't get subsidies. Its unsustainable.

3 – Ended the war in Iraq

I guess. Except he illegally started another war in Iraq. And an illegal war in Syria. And an illegal war in Libya.

4 – Ordered for the capture and killing of Osama Bin Laden

I guess. Except what president wouldn't have done that? Obama's dog "Bo" (Obama is so vain he named the dog after himself!) would've given that order.

5 – Passed the $787 billion America Recovery and Reinvestment Act to spur economic growth during the Great Recession

I guess. Except it was worthless---it didn't trigger spur economic growth and he wound up borrowing and wasting almost a trillion dollars that could''ve actually been used for real infrastructure projects---things which the country actually needs.

Great. And obama also presided over the worst drug epidemic this country has ever seen in the rise of the opiod epidemic. Its so bad the country's death rate is increasing and life spans decreasing for big part of the population. Obama was a DISASTER on drug policy.

8 – Saved the U.S. auto industry

Really? He did nothing for Ford, he used Federal dollars to fund Fiat to buy Chrysler (Fiat is part of the ITALIAN auto industry). He did bail out GM. Which is a fat cat corporate giant that could've bailed itself out.

This was one of Obama's biggest lies. He promised to win the war in Afghanistan and then pull out ALL the troops and end that worthless war in Afghanistan. That was one of his main campaign promises. I guess you've forgotten that he promised to win in Afghanistan and then end the war? Obama called it the "good war"---remember that nonsense from him? Nope---Obama lied to the american people repeatedly about winning and then ending the Afghanistan war. The man is a disgrace on that issue.

11 – Signed the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals allowing as many as 5 million people living in the U.S. illegally to avoid deportation and receive work permits

Personally I don't support Presidents not enforcing the law. Last time I looked they swear in their oath of office to uphold the law. One of the worst things obama did, IMHO, was introduce the idea that Presidents don't have to obey the US Constitution and don't have to enforce the law.

I guess. Except he didn't demand that glass stegal reforms be included and he presided over a justice department that never prosecuted the corporate bigwigs who contributed to the great recession IMHO he didn't do enough----I assume he wanted campaign contributions from the banksters on Wall Street so he didn't prosecute them. What a shameful precedent to set.

13 – Dropped the veteran homeless rate by 50 percent

I haven't seen that data. Can you provide a link? Every news story I saw said the homeless rate went up under Obama after the 2008-9 recession.

14 – Reversed Bush-era torture policies

I guess. But if the CIA ever decides in the future it has to torture an Islamist extremist to stop another 911 attack, I hope they don't ask Obama's permission first.

15 – Began the process of normalizing relations with Cuba

I guess. Except normalizing relations meant more US dollars going into the coffers of the Cuban communist party and the Castro dictatorship and their prisons and torturers.. Obama did about nothing for the pro-democracy political prisoners being tortured in prisons in Cuba, even when he had leverage during the negotiations. I guess Obama thought it was OK if the Cuban regime tortures its political prisoners since they were only Cubans. I personally thought it was shameful that he turned his back on the pro-democracy groups in Cuba.

16 – Increased Department of Veteran Affairs funding

yes, but Obama presided over a number of monumental failures in the VA hospital program. He never fixed it. he never fired anyone who shafted the vets. Obama's vet policy was an utter disaster. Did you miss all the scandals in he Obama-era vet hospitals?

One of the first things Obama did when he came into office was suspend the fuel efficiency standards for cars. Later, he introduced new fuel efficiency standards. But what kind of clown was Obama to suspend the existing fuel efficiency standards? And then make a big deal about the new ones he introduces after suspending the existing ones? SHEESH!

19 – Improved school nutrition with the Healthy Hunger-Free Kids Act

I guess. I'm "meh" on that one. I'd rather see kids having breakfast with their families, actually.

20 – Repealed the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy

Obama was a strong supporter of gay rights---no doubt of that.

21 – Signed the Hate Crimes Prevention Act, making it a federal crime to assault anyone based on sexual or gender identification

I'm not a big fan of "hate crime" legislation. It puts the government into the business of prosecuting "thought crimes" ala Orwell's 1984. It also makes some crimes more important that others. As far as I'm concerned every crime and every victim of sexual assault, murder, assault, etc. deserves the full attention of the DA and the police and every perp should be prosecuted to the full measure of the law.

22 – Helped negotiate the landmark Iran Nuclear Deal

Which Iran isn't complying with. And which apparently involved the secret payment of large bribes to various Iranian officials---bribes delivered shortly after the deal was signed. I don't quite see the point of an agreement which isn't being complied with by the Iranians and I don't the US government should be in the business of bribing foreign officials under any circumstances. As President Jefferson said when dealing with the Barbary Pirates---millions for defence but not one penny for tribute.

23 – He signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act to combat pay discrimination against women

I guess. Is that problem solved now? Or was this another sham law from Obama that actually didn't fix the problem?

24 – Nominated Sonia Sotomayor to the Supreme Court, making her the first Hispanic ever to serve as a justice

I'm not a big fan of race-based identity politics. I'm more concerned with how qualified someone is then with their ethnic background.

Thats nice. Except the GI bill has been around for 70 years. I know you want to boost Obama's legacy, but thats stretching things to ridiculous levels.

26 – Won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2009 “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples”

I think it was a huge mistake for the Nobel Prize committee to award obama the Nobel Prize before he'd done anything to deserve it. Now we've got a Nobel Peace Prize Winner who subverted the US constitution to start 3 illegal wars----what a farce!!

27 – Launched My Brother’s Keeper, a White House initiative designed to help young minorities achieve their full potential

It sounds nice, but it doesn't seem to have accomplished much. Last time I looked young minorities----I assume you mean children of color-----were lagging far behind in measures of academic achievement.

Of course you are cherry picking facts, but thats the nature of the kind of list you just presented. Its OK---You can cheery pick all the facts you want. It was nice to see your list of Obama's legacy accomplishments.

I can even add one more item for your list---and its something relevant to this thread. Obama is largely personally responsible for the UN Paris Accords that claim to restrict Global Warming to something under 2°C. But like so many of Obama's so called accomplishments, when you look more closely it doesn't do what it claims. In fact it actually is treaty that allows large INCREASES in CO2, which will inevitably result in large INCREASES in global warming.

What kind of a moron puts together a climate change treaty that calls for INCREASING CO2 and making climate change worse? The answer is Obama.

In other words, the Paris Accords (and Obama's role in crafting them) was nothing but a sham and a fraud.

With sixteen of the seventeen warmest years on record having occurred since 2000; with oceans both warming and acidifying; and with unequivocal scientific evidence that burning fossil fuels is the principal cause; – what can we do to rapidly reduce emissions?

This presentation will revisit the scale of the climate challenge, arguing that whilst the science of climate change has progressed, we obstinately refuse to acknowledge the rate at which our emissions from energy need to be reduced. The Paris Agreement exemplifies this duality – relying as it does on highly speculative negative emission technologies to balance incremental tweaks to a ‘business-as-usual’ model with rapidly dwindling carbon budgets for 2°C. Similarly, the eloquent rhetoric of green growth continues to eclipse analysis demonstrating the need for radical social as well as technical change.

Taking these issues head on, this seminar will outline a quantitative framing of mitigation, based on IPCC carbon budgets, before finishing with more qualitative examples of what a genuine low-carbon future may contain.

Here's a consequence of GW that, I have to admit, I have never thought of or heard of before:Climate Change Is Causing the Seafloor to Sink

If there’s one thing we’re learning about this global planetary experiment called climate change, it’s that there are unexpected consequences. Case in point: All of the water pouring off Earth’s melting ice sheets is making the oceans heavier, so much so that seafloors are literally sinking. And that could be messing with our measurements of global sea level rise...

They found that the increased total ocean load from these largely human-driven changes caused the ocean floor to sink, on average, by about 0.1 mm/year between 1993-2014, or 2.1 mm over the entire period. That may not sound like much, especially when you consider sea levels have risen roughly 80 mm since the early ‘90s, but let me remind you that we’re talking about the entire goddamn ocean getting pressed down.

Plus, when you add all those little changes up, the authors find that our satellites are underestimating the amount sea levels have risen due to added ocean water by about eight per cent. All in all, this has the effect of throwing off satellite sea level estimates by just four per cent, because roughly half of sea level rise comes from added water, and half from rising temperatures causing water to expand in place...

There were some interesting spatial trends, too. In regions where most of the ice is melting—Greenland and the Arctic ocean—the seafloor is actually uplifting slightly as weight is taken off. In fact, since most of the disappearing ice is concentrated in the global north, pretty much the entire northern hemisphere is seeing a slight seafloor uplift effect, while subsidence is concentrated in the south, particularly the Southern Ocean.

Revi wrote:I guess while we are freezing, Alaska and Europe are mild. ....

Depends on your definition of mild I guess.

Deadly Storm Eleanor batters Western Europe

Paris (CNN)Three people have died and tens of thousands have been left without power as Storm Eleanor sweeps across western Europe.A 21-year-old man was killed in France after high winds caused a tree to fall on him while he was skiing Wednesday in the Morillon area in the southeast of the country, Savoie police told CNN.In Spain's Basque Country, two people died Wednesday night in the coastal town of Mutriku after they were swept out to sea by a large wave, police said.....

.......Rain and high winds brought by Eleanor lashed parts of Ireland and the United Kingdom on Tuesday and Wednesday, causing flooding in some areas, downing trees and temporarily cutting power to tens of thousands of homes.Gusts of 100 mph were recorded in the Pennines, a range of mountains and hills in northern England, the UK Met Office said Wednesday.http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/04/weather/s ... index.html

Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person