How does the bromance of Trump/Putin possibly play into end times?

I hope to get serious comments from theology students and those who had studied end times which are spelled out in the Book of Revelations.

People will not be able to buy without the mark of the beast. We are quickly moving to the point of buying without having to go through a checkout. Check out Amazon's system to be used in grocery stores. As you take off/return items to shelves, your total is tallied. And you walk out the store.

Automation is replacing man on most jobs. The recent demand for a $15 McDonald wage has led the company to say they will seek ways to automate the system with kiosks. Go to Chili's, Applebee's, etc. You can order from the computerized menu on your table and pay the same way.

The United States is not included in the Book of Revelations. Russia is!!!! Prominent Christian theologians who supported Trump are well aware of the prophecies in Revelations. It's interesting that they are not talking about it.

Now we see that Russia has been manipulating us. Why? Do they want to destroy us or take over the United States.

It took 1500 years after the Bible was created that America existed and to prove the world was round for most people.

Zionist who create Communist in Russia and Corporatism in America will creates any means necessary to tool revelation, race, poverty and Religion for their most profitable adventure ever, ..WAR. We all must wise up to history and facts because fear mongering is working for them successfully since world war 1. War is unjust for poverty, environment, solutions and our very souls, we are the losers everytime.

Obama allowed Chinese and Russians to observe the vulnerabilities of the power grid during the Grid EX II drill. The grid will be taken down before a bomb gets dropped, IMHO, it will be a cyber attack. People need to understand what that means in relation to life as they know it.

The US has been training UN, Russian and Chinese troops (and more) on American soil for years. There is a "bromance", but its not as you seem to have been conditioned to believe.

The USA seems to disappear in Revelation. It may be because we are demolished to the point of not being a power nation, or it may be because of the Third Great Awakening the Bible proclaims, which hasn't happened yet...and we ceased being a power nation. I like the latter.

My intent was to get theological discussion from those who believe in God and the Bible. It occurred to me that I might need to give background on some critical points to facilitate theological discussion.

For those who are non-believers, I'm sure this seems like SciFI material. When I watch The Walking Dead and similar shows, I think about the future. Evidently, the writers of the series also did some apocalyptic researach.

ProphecyThe first mention of the Tribulation in the Bible is found in Deuteronomy 4:27-30. Before the Children of Israel entered the Promised Land, Moses warned them that if they were unfaithful to God, they would be scattered among the nations. He then prophesied that “in the latter days” they would come under “distress,” and the result would be their “return to the Lord.”RUSSIA will be the WORLD LEADER Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russian government has continued to collapse into chaos. Russian business is largely run by Russian organized crime. At the present, those who have the money dictate politics. It's the present world system's golden rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules." The Russian mob is just as interested in conquering the Middle East to obtain a cheap source of oil as any preceding legitimate government of Russia ever was.http://www.discoverrevelation.com/26.htmlSufferingThe Bible makes it clear that all the nations of the world will experience catastrophic calamities.

666 – Mark of the Beast"And the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the freemen and the slaves, allow it [the Antichrist's state religion] to give them a mark on their right hand, or on their foreheads: so that none can buy or sell, except they have the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name. Here is wisdom. Let him having reason count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six" (Rev.13:16-18 Para.).

Start of tribulationSpecifically, the Bible says it will begin at a time when all the world comes together against Israel over the issue of who will control the city of Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:2-3). In short, we are on the very threshold of the Tribulation today as we witness the United Nations, the European Union, the Vatican, and the Arab nations demanding that the Jews surrender their sovereignty over Jerusalem.

The specific event that will mark the seven year count down of the Tribulation will be the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and her Arab enemies — a treaty that will allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).

Thanks for starting this thread. I do wonder why it took so long. It's already been suggested that Trump will kill Mother Earth so of course we have to determine whether he's the Beast, the Antichrist or some other nefarious Biblical creature.

I'm not sure about end-times, definitively, but there is some disconcerting handwriting on the wall. For example, Trump's comment about the CIA's assessment concerning the Russian hacking was absurd: "These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction." Of course they're not the same people. And he might try reading the original CIA intelligence assessment on the question of WMD. The Freedom of Information Act caused this document to be released in 2004, with sections redacted. It wasn't until 2014 that the CIA's document was revealed in its entirety. Their report stated that while he had a chemical weapons program in the past, there was no unequivocal proof Hussein had resumed these efforts. Although they suspected that he had, they qualified these suspicions by stating that their sources to this effect were not wholly reliable. Those important and repeated qualifiers/reservations also included any possible links between Saddam and al Qaeda. What President Bush's intelligence circle did in laundering out those qualifiers led to a tragic chapter in our nation's history: The invasion of Iraq.

I wish our President-elect would make an effort to become better informed rather than seeing the world as a simplistic box of dollars and deals. He might begin by having daily briefings, which he has repeatedly refused. (I suspect he wants Pence to do the heavy lifting.) His excuse, "Don't talk to me until you have something new," is right out of Jr. High. What's next..."My dog ate my homework"?

Unfortunately most people do not have the foresight that religion has mainly been used as a tool for a hierarchy system. Lead by few who want power and control of as many people as they can and as long as they can. Base on the greatest BS stories ever told..

To kill another person is much easier through religion, because someone like GW Bush can say God told him to destory Iraq and he got the highest polls of any President ever. It is much easier to kill a sub human devil, that an American knows nothing about. Than to honestly find out that this Iraqi person or culture is 95% the same and real human beings too with the same rights to exist on earth.

Now apply this with America and Israel against Iran and Russia who do not want war, Yet will be force into a war with false flag like 9/11, or like the other rubbish to cause a successful greedy war takeovers. Except, American are going to really get hit at home this time.

First, the entire letter is about one person, and one person only. The Messiah. In fact, the first 5 words of the letter clarify that, undeniably. Anything after uses images and strong expressions to describe the events which lead up to the restoration of humanity to the "Adamic state", that is immortality, which was why the Messiah came to begin with -so that all things from the Anointed back to the first anointing (man, the glory of Creator) would be fully restored.

Second, attempting to connect modern politics to the letter then catapulting into the would-be future, which suggests the entire destruction of humanity and entire cosmos, as the letter is most often interpreted, and recreation of all things at some point thereafter, makes very little sense. Why in gods name would they be necessary to do acheive such a thing. A mere rock, a pebble, by universal standards, no larger than 100 meters could accomplish the same.

Let's be reasonable, James. We are the center of the universe and, as such, everything revolves around us (us being America, of course).

To think that all prophecy doesn't revolve around the here and now makes no sense. What fun would life be if we couldn't think a presidential election wasn't the beginning of the end of the world as we know it?

First, it is not a book, it is a letter.Second, as said, the first 5 words of the letter tell the reader exactly what, or rather whom, the entire iteration is about.

or more commonly translated:

From that moment, the reader has a clear, and undeniable view of the events surounding said messiah -not some apocalyptic twist of events and the doom of mankind. Of all the text in the compilations, regardless of preferred translation, this letter is by far the most beautiful. Sadly, this beauty has been grossly misinterpreted -especially since the late 1800's "revival" by the Pentecostal (anti-Anglican) movement led by none other than Amie McPhearson, John G Lake, Smith Wigglesworth, etc. Instead of reading this oration about the Messiah, in context, it has been abused to put fear or fire and brimstone into people and, as of late, used as a tool for the continued promotion of "blessings" and "prosperity" based on human desire and not "spiritual growth".

Third, regarding your points. When reading Hebrew, or Aramaic, one cannot deny most -if not all- references point to the old coven. Of which, I would very much enjoy explaining, but it would be itself no less than a best-selling book. he-he.

The most important thing to note is the term antichrist. In Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew the term translates precisely to mean, "That which opposes the anointing". As Christ means Anointed or anointing. Another word for anointing is glory. Anitchrist is the one and only thing that opposed to the glory of Creator. That same word glory appears at creation when man was made. It is not a coincidence. Adam was the first Anointed, consumed with the glory of Creator. He gave up the anointing for the sake of the thoughts in him, led astray by his ha satan. Again, in the Hebrew, ha satan translates precisely to mean the ego, adversary, stumbling stone or better said that which apposes the anointing (glory). It is by ego man lost his immortality and required restoration. It was by the Second Adam that all things would be restored. This was the promise.

The work of Moshiach is vividly described in this amazing letter in a series of semiotics and seemingly graphic pictorials. It was done so to shake loose those burdened by the Law from their shackles and show them the true point and purpose of it all - Life (immortal fullness of the glory of Creator in man).

Once upon a time, man ate of the Tree of Knowledge -mind, thoughts- and was cast away from immortality, lest he eat of the Tree of Life in this state of madness and be consumed for all eternity by the depth of those thoughts. Thoughts like webs that break in his grasp, as he tumbles infinitely down into the darkest pit of the unknown. But, a time would come when all things would be restored to their former glory, and man would be able to eat freely from the Tree of Life and bathe freely in the River of Life. To all who hear, I say, "Drink and never thirst again.". In other words, truly and thoroughly taste, immerse -even so far as to drown oneself in immortality, in Creator. This is the reason Messiah manifest - to prove the glory of Creator in man...

As for prophecy, if one reads the text correctly would know without a doubt: Messiah fulfilled both the Law & the Prophets. Therefore no prophecy, nor rules, are needed any longer. The Spirit will now be the Speaker, the Healer, the Interpreter, the Revealer and Giver of Life Eternal. Who then needs an instructor? Only one who denies the glory of Creator - Himself, that is what the Spirit is.

Perhaps, after reading this you will revisit the letter with new eyes.

Having read this letter, and the entire collective compilation multiples times, and further tested on its contents, and then receiving certification from the ministry, can say confidently my synopsis is spot on. The first five words are indeed the most critical, because it is from these words the reader gains insight as to "what they are reading about".

What is most enlightening about the writers of old is the lack of cloak-n-dagger, hide-n-seek, piece the puzzle together approach. Fact is, they were bluntly straight forward. Granted, the use of elaborate graphics was a common practice due to the nature of the population in those days -strongly influenced by mysticism and other types of beliefs. Most especially in the region where this letter was said to have been written or distributed -modern day Aegean - Greco-Turkish region, a Roman occupied territory of the west Asia. The Asian-Persian beliefs were soaked heavily in various characters, images and beasts - like the famed Naga or Dragon, the likes of a Manticore.

But, back to the point. Whether the reader accepts the introduction or not, at both the beginning and end of this brilliant letter we read the degree and message clearly - wash your robes and face. Stop mourning [his] sacrifice and the salvation it brought. Return to immortality freely and without reserve.

Perhaps it is my own naivety, but those words seem to resonate a stark contrast to what is being fed to the masses...

There are many schools that offer degrees and certificate for you to learn what they taught. I'm really not clear on what you think it means other than it seems like the people addressed are from the past. Do you min telling me what religion your degree is in?

My theology is none. It was considered to be full gospel nondenominational, at one time.

I do not mind at all. A Bachelors of Ministry through a division of Oral Roberts University - under the direction of the late Dr Lester Sumrall, an interdenominational, international missionary and evangelical ministry. I have since departed the ministry entirely to pursue faith, instead of doctrine.

I really did not know what Oral Roberts teaches because I never listened to him; however, they have loads of information available which do not bear any resemblance to what you are saying. Perhaps someone said they are under Oral Roberts U.

Simply because I was educated through this particular medium does not indicate I subscribe to their theories nor teachings. Fact is, it was their doctrine that make me realize the futility of their thinking. This group, like many, come from the same rootstock, as mentioned previously. Just because the interpretation is accepted, does not mean it is accurate.

From reading your profile it looks like you studied philosophies. Maybe your view fits into one of the philosophies you studied. If so, that was what I was interested in. I thought if I could look it up, I could get a better understanding of what you are saying. You summed it up so neatly in a paragraph that I wanted to see where the view originated.

Well, I have studied a dozen philosophies, of both a scientific and sensational nature. As I grew in the knowledge of them all, it occurred to me that each had many similarities, yet lacked the same basic fundamental solution to the human condition, meaning the endless downward spiral of reason, logic, doctrine, etc. Each was magnificent in presenting itself. Each has equally engaging elements. But the most colorful and argued of all have been the Judaeo-Christian philosophy. It took some time to understand why, as one was apparently build upon the fundamentals of the other, or so most believe.

Yet, scrutinizing the later in depth and greater detail proved some dramatic differences in the approach and purpose of the teaching. After reading all the texts of what is commonly called the New Testimony, it is undeniable the Christian philosophy predates the Judaic, or better said supersedes it. As if someone put an arch between the First and Second Adam, thus completely eliminated the entire Judaic belief system. A system of immeasurable suffering, pain, death, torture and a host of other burdens, placed upon the shoulders of -and as noted directly in their texts- the most stiff-necked people throughout history. (Ha! And they say Creator has no sense of humor). Ironically, what better people to be the chosen ones, to bare the brunt of - testify to- the failure of Reason. As according to the texts, it was Reason that led man astray to begin with. Yet, in the Christian view Reason cannot reverse the effects nor dissolve the attributes of Reason as seen from the entirety of the Judaic system. Therefore the Second Adam would supersede everything and seemingly build a bridge between the beginning and the new beginning.

To any true scholar of philos, this is by far the most amazing thing to ever exist in the history of mankind. A gateway, if you will, back to immortality; back to perfection, to glorification, without a single stumbling stone or crack in the sidewalk.

With reference to the letter, we spoke of earlier, it is chock-full of evidences that point directly to this bridge, this arch. Albeit quite vividly and seemingly horrific to the untrained eye. One section in particular has always stood out in my mind. This section makes explicit mention of the "first resurrection" an event said to have taken place when Moshiach rose from the grave, years prior to this letter being written. In other words, this "satan" was bound under the law for a millennium and ultimately destroyed when the First Resurrection occurred.Reference: Letter of Revealing 20.1-14.

This coincides with the teaching that by this mans selfless action, both Death [the grave] and Hades [hell] were overthrown, destroyed, rendered powerless.

Pointing to my earlier stance of the entire substance of the letter being summed up in the first five words: "This is the revealing of Y'shua Moshiach". Just amazing.

The New Testimony is often called the New Testament, a compilation of the four testimonies of Witnesses, the Acts of the Witnesses, several collections of additional letters -like the Corinthian letters, etc- including the letter of Revealing. The New Testimony is said to supersede the Old testimony -which includes everything from Genesis to the last book Malachi, which was penned by the prophet Isaiah. The Old compiles everything regarding the Law, Judgement, Prophets whereas the New compiles everything regarding Moshiach and the Restoration of humanity.

As for opinion, yes, I have one, but what I reiterated was not opinion, but rather direct textual reference. Again, what amazed me was reading the Letter "as is", without preconceived ideas and seeing the facts laid out in -quite possibly- the most beautiful manner possible. The hope alone that exists within. To reiterate, in stark contrast to current beliefs about "end time" events. In fact, just the opposite of the current teaching. If anything, it really gives one pause to reflect and consider possibilities beyond, well, belief.

Yes, there are decades upon decades, library shelves and smartphones packed with pamphlets, essays, short stories, books -even encyclopedias and concordances- regarding "the end times". Not to mention films, toys, video games and a plethora of memorabilia-merchandise toting and celebrating "the end". Seems theology, from multiple perspectives, is obsessed with, cashing in on, and very much "praying" for, the destruction of humanity -and they have the people wooed into believing it wholeheartedly. But, does that mean they are correct?

I seem to recall a fellow about 2,000 years ago who came and spoke in the face of many, from common folk to hundreds of thousands of theologians -even military and government officials. What he said went completely against thousands upon thousands of years of teaching, preaching and beliefs of every kind, to the point were they killed him mercilessly because of it. One perspective against a multitude of opposition. Ironically, it was this very story we were discussing.

In closure, how dreadful, just terribly morbid, in good conscious, can there be a more dark, sinister, hellish state of being than a place where one hopes for annihilation and sprints toward it in gleeful abandon...

Was truly a pleasure to have had the conversation. Wishing you and yours a very Merry Christmas.

....and you didn't get the confirmation for your beliefs that you were hoping for, Diane. You must be so disappointed. The very idea that anyone could put some comments up on your discussion page that confound all that fear and tribulation which the sick evangelical religion peddles to its gullible congregations....well really! The impertinence of it!

Well done James. You are interested in facts, not fancy. Thanks for your contribution, I have learned a lot from it.

Quite frankly, it's a bit of a mystery but what he appears to be saying (in a long winded way) is that the second resurrection has occurred and that we are not meant to be bound by death anymore. The second Adam broke the chains. I think he is saying that we are now meant to be immortal as was the first Adam and probably the only thing binding us to mortality is our lack of mentally accepting the gift of immortality.

Honestly, I think it's a really pretty sounding crock of whatever but I think the other interpretations are a crock of whatever that just don't sound as appealing.

Yeh. Of all the people in all of the world you would think Israel could sympathize with the Palestinians. But, then, the Arabs don't have a long history of compassionate consideration for the Israelis either. I don't see much hope for there ever being a peace in the Middle East.

I will add that expecting to put parameters on this type of discussion is pointless. So few agree on this book and if it is something pertinent for any given age it would be very important to ensure that parameters are not put on a discussion. You'd hate to see a bunch of people running down a rabbit hole when there was a sinkhole fast expanding that should be addressed.

I've been away at a funeral. One of my best friends and I discussed this. I had already come to the conclusion but she was right. A foundation for the discussion has to have parameters that all agree are true.

If you don't believe it, there is really no discussion. You just think it isn't true.

You show profound understanding here, Diane. I am sure that when opposite views are accepted it can be the basis of strong friendships.Much appreciated and I wish you a happy New Year with many joys and accomplishments.

Too many people throughout the years have believed it to be true for their moment in time and acted upon it, to their detriment. I have noticed that Americans tend to believe it all revolves around us and events as we perceive them to be. I suppose any other citizen of any other country does the same.

You say if you don't believe. Well, what you are saying is that you have to believe in your interpretation. Anyone who believes in Jesus will have some take on that book. Since you did set the parameters by your choice of what category to place this in then I would have thought anyone who believed in Jesus would fall within the parameters set. But, you are slowly making it clear that one interpretation is the only one you are interested in hearing. We all enjoy a cheering section when we have a view but I don't know how helpful that is in attempting to create a realistic world view.

Live, I was not speaking of what each person believes; however, I am willing to discuss it as long as the passage referred to is cited. That way we can have a REAL discussion (not argument) on what is believed.

My next comments will be based on these:

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Matthew 14:15 14But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it. 15Beware of false prophets.

Revelations 18:18-20 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Comments1. Many people get what they know about the Bible by word of mouth. Their source is often uninformed. They may sound impressive but that just proves the ignorance of the listener.

2. Many will read a little and make assumptions about the rest - especially those who say the Bible contradicts itself.

3. You do not watch a snip of a movie and know the whole story. Imagine going to the Super Bowl in the 2nd quarter and leaving at any time before the end. How it ends is the best (for the winner at least).

4. Many don't want to know what the Bible says because it interferes with them doing what they want to do.

5. This Scripture (but there are many, many) sums up how racial interaction could be good for everyone.

Phillippians 2:3 In whatever you do, don’t let selfishness or pride be your guide. Be humble, and honor others more than yourselves.

I appreciate you posting those passages. I also appreciate the fact that, from my perspective, they drive home my point; as you believe they drive home yours.

I'm not a person who seeks to unlock the mysteries of biblical prophecy. I assume it's either I have no interest or lack the ability. I do listen to those who think they've done it, attempt to research (where I can) to determine the accuracy. You can, apparently, go in quite a few directions and still remain true to the wording in the text. Which is why I consider it to be a narcissistic endeavor and those who convince others they have done it are truly dangerous people.

No one knows the hour. I leave it at that, but don't expect others to. I leave the matter of false prophecy to those interested in pursuing it because if God considered it pertinent information he would share it and not leave it to humans to argue and vie for their own followers.

"No one knows the hour!" Guess where those words came from!!!Matthew 24:36"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Mark 13:22"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

1 Thess 5:2-3. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

2 Peter 3:10English Standard Version (ESV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[a] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.[b]

Revelation 3:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

God considered it pertinent information. That's why it is in the Bible.

Where do you think God could have advised us and every single person on earth would believe it?

Seems to me as if people such as yourself are not accepting it. For over 2000 years people have been attempting to insist that the end is near. It has never happened. .And people such as yourself keep insisting that it is. Obviously isn't God's plan. Some just can't accept it.

1 Cor 3:19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness."

Seems to me as if many are attempting to show how wise and clever they are by figuring out when the end is here.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

You aren't preaching the cross so I have no idea why you chose to include that.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Those attempting to show how this is the end are the ones attempting to be wise.

Isaiah 35:8 (BBE) And a highway will be there; its name will be, The Holy Way; the unclean and the sinner may not go over it, and those who go on it will not be turned out of the way by the foolish.

"Near" is a relative term. God's time is different from ours. JW's have tried to give a specific date at least 4 or 5 times. I think they have given up. Some nut came up with a date a couple of years ago. I haven't heard anymore from him since.

I don't speak of the "time" as a "prophetess" but comparing what is happening to what is written. I don't look forward in fear because I won't be here.

2 Peter 3:8–9 reads:

‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’

What James is saying is simply this:There is no end-time prophecy. And certainly no correlation between the texts known as the Bible, pointing especially to the "Book" of Revelation, and a political bromance, as you put it, of two world leaders. Attempting to force some esoteric agenda or sensational connection is both misleading and deceptive to the readers of the thread.

What I attempted to explain, perhaps in a long-winded manner, without going through every line-by-line explanation and various cross-over references, was the facts directly from the text itself -using just two lines or verses. The "End Times" is a hoax. That statement is not suggestive or opinionated, it is based on contextual facts.

1. The first five words of the book emphatically prove what the entire text is about: "This is the revealing of Y'shua Moshiach" or more commonly translated "This is the Revealed Mystery of Jesus, the Christ.2. Following a series of progressive events, chapters 1 - 20, we see clearly all of them occur before the first resurrection.

Hence, rendering the entire idea of such an apocalyptic tone, and anything being taught or promoted by both the believing and non-believing regarding the concept of the "end times", as incorrect.

To add some thoughts, for those reading. Consider this: Is the author explaining the entire process of events that occurred immediately following the mans death and fulfilled at his rebirth, as seen in the last two chapters, concluding with all finality, the entire sum-substance of all the texts Genesis to this?

In my reading of the bible, it seems more of trying to direct us to the way to keep the actions of humans from repeating and bringing on our end. I see that there is a battle and I'm not sure how we can win.There is so much hate and anger that makes no sense. Our technology has become our demise. People believe all they read and hear and say "yes" when they should say " no".We no longer know our neighbors so when there is disagreement over property lines, it turns into a battle that escalates to violence. Until we learn to truly follow the way of the bible there will be more chaos and destruction.

That is true. It is very sad for me to hear the way people talk to each other. When I was little it was the expected to go to church every Sunday. My parents were divorced, so I attended two different religions.With mom, Baptist. With dad, Lutheran. I was always trying to figure out how it went together and why what the said and practiced were so different. When I was old enough, well into my 20's. Hadn't attended church in years, but I had a bible. I started reading and praying still at home. What I discovered shocked me. Every religion chose only one chapter of the rules laid out in the bible for us to follow. Now that things are as they are. Upside down. I worry there will be a time when all who have never read the bible will not believe peace in every part of our lives can be achieved. That is when I believe all will be taken from here.

Not the exact date, but when we see 70 nations conspiring against Israel at the UN, and meeting in Paris on January 15th, 2017, we should take time to pray and get in God's Word asking Him to teach us.

What could be happening is the setting of the stage for a bloody war in the Middle East like never before. World War Three?

The Book of Revelation is one Revelation, The Revelation of Jesus Christ This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions]. Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and who keep the things which are written in it [heeding them and taking them to heart]; for the time [of fulfillment] is near. ..

I've been at home taking care of my, Mom, she has advanced Alzheimer's. Been doing that for the past few years now.

I like to cuddle up with the Bible during the cold winter months to read and study the Living Word, word upon word, line upon line, precept upon precept. I love it when I am teachable and mysteries unfold before my eyes.

I hope you have a happy, healthy and prosperous 2017, Diane. You are a blessing!

I will keep you and your mom in my prayers. January 20 will be the 6th anniversary of my mother's passing away. I have fond memories of cuddling and dancing with her. At the end, I prayed for the Lord to take her because she suffered so much. I knew that she would be home with no more tears or pain.

The sincere milk of the Word grows us as we continue to read, pray and be led by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

I don't believe these biblical 'prophecies' are what people think they are. I believe they are the experiences of an off-world civilization that is very much similar to ours. They have evolved like us both physically and socially and as such if it happened to them it's practically a given that it will happen to us and so far it has. For instance; the weather changes here on earth are not signs of anything other than the effects of our own activity. We take oil out of the ground and burn it dumping millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere which has caused major weather changes. The oil we remove from the ground is replaced with waste water. Shock waves travel much more easily in water and as such earthquakes have increased in number, intensity and duration in places where they never used to happen at all. The heating up of our atmosphere has had a very negative effect on our ability to grow food which has resulted in major food shortages around the globe. The power nations of the world want more of everything which causes tensions in world affairs etc. All of these happenings are contributed, by many, to 'end times' but they are really nothing more than the tragic results of human activity. If another civilization followed a similar course it would only stand to reason that they would know how it all works out; or worse, they could use it to manipulate another civilization (us!) by calling it 'prophetic' knowledge. The good news is that if the people of the world chose to they could avoid the so-called end of the world as 'predicted' by said prophesies. The end all battle at Armaggeden will be people fighting each other. The 'God of Abraham' believers will fight against everyone else for the benefit of foriegn invaders (so-called 'God' and his angels) The belief that no thing in heaven knows the date of their 'return' and that is because it will depend on how long it takes us to terraform earth to their liking. The bible describes the inner sanctum of the original 'temple', where God stayed while here on earth, as an oil lighted, hot, carbon dioxide(CO2) filled environment not suitable to the well being of humans; though apparently much desired by God. If we take that description into account then we can say with some surety that God likes a hot, smokey CO2 laden environment and as such will bring 'heaven' to earth when said terraforming is completed. It will in effect create 'heaven on earth' for our foreign invaders, not us!As far as Gog and Ma Gog go, theoretically speaking it's the U.S and Russia. The prophesy says we will be friends turned enemies turned friends once again. We were friendly at the end of world war II, enemies shortly thereafter and we will soon be friendly again. Take it for what it's worth, which is principled social evolution at work, not mystical prophecy. It has apparently happened on Gods world and it would seem to be happening here on earth as well.

Actually, I have. So much so, that I'm writing a book about it. As far as the "off-world' comment goes; you didn't really think Earth was the only inhabited planet in a universe of billions upon billions of stars and planets, did you? So, there are bound to be civilizations far more advanced than ours, which wouldn't take much! Personally, my position as an Intelligence analyst for the USAF afforded me access to secrets concerning aliens that you simply would not believe were true, but I can assure you that they are. And other than what we've been led to believe, what is God, other than a being or group of beings from another planet? In relation to the terraforming I mentioned, the judeo-christian bible describes the inner sanctum of the temple as a place too hostile for earth humans, which is where our current environment is presently headed, hell for us, heaven for God!And you know the one thing that really concerns me with the supposed "heaven on earth" scenario? Neither God or Jesus ever really said just who it will be heaven for. Since we know the CO2 laden environment within the holy of holies was good for God but not people, I would say that the "heaven" to come is gonna kick our oxygen breathing butts!

We can sum it up by calling life a learning process. We have learn much from Religion, science and the arts. The most powerful force throughout human history for positive change has always been the collective consciousness of human being challenging abuse. I building an eco village in Bolivia to contribute toward the collective consciousness and northern hemisphere is ready for a great rude awareness from greater abuses to come than from where I am staying.

Trump has an attention span of a terrible 2 year old, he is going to blow a lot of sh_t up as commander General Custer Trump last stand will happen.. This will force a lot of intelligent people to get together for much better solutions. For every action there is a reaction, tragedy has always been the strongest .

Mankind will prevail again after this great abuse to come, earthling will regenerate, I cast it out to the Universe, and they told me so, never has failed before. Love is my God, Nature is my Religion and work is the solution.

This trusting in another Planet or some better spiritual place in the shy has not enough evidence for me to drink any cool aid Yet.

Nobody knows Trump deeper than the writer Schwartz. Who wrote, :Art of the deal: for Trump. Schwartz intensely worked with Trump for 18 months, where I only had to put up with his temper tantrums for weeks. Schwartz made that quote, Trump has an attention span of a 2 year old and I agree. Schwartz said he created a Frankenstein and thinks he will be the end of the World.End of the World is a bit much, I will be giving my stand-up comedy bit on Trump's. His degree of destruction will be based on his corrupted pass bussinesses and corrupted connections. Nobody knows where this Orange clown with a red button will go. It will be his end if he makes a serious mistake with the Zionist.

Trump can easily win the people's vote for grand wizard kkk. America has the greatest numbers of white people than any country in the world. Can't imagine him getting kkk on the 86% non white world's population. Nukes, troops and Milliary are not making non white people afraid anymore. Even though authorizes kill more people than the public do.Look at the race wars in the streets now, call me when the full revolution starts.

Trump admires blacks most, in the area of pro boxing and football because they are already beating each other up. The real money is in tag team pro wresting for megalomaniacs.

He is 1000% behind Israel, Jews are the best accountance, and lawyers, he says. Trump flip flops on Bankers, Oil kings and Media, those are his deep secret societies.No cleaning the swamp there or no parts in nature, at all.

It's massively going on already. Undoing Syrians refugees immigrates that Obama brought in and signing papers banning all Muslims. Building the wall and US is paying for it. Trump says he will tax Mexican and Mexico said they retax America on food and auto parts, raising prices up 25% to 35%. Your US great Hollywood actors and musicians are trying to move, great part of your culture. Trump is mentally and emotionally retarded. He will soon increased pollution and promotes many countries to rapidly get involved in nuclear war race. Putin is playing him like a fool tool. Trudeau wants to avoid him. I am enjoying the freak show unfolding, but my soul feels sad. The orange clown is not so funny anymore. The abuse has just started and a lot further to go.

Americans should put him in a rubber room. He has no conscious. Good news it sure will wake up Americans, most of the rest of world already knows he is clinically freaken nuts.

He put Steve Bannon on the National Security Council. He doesn't have a SECURITY clearance. He told the Chiefs of armed services they don't need to come to meetings unless something is discussed that they need to give input on.

There was only 1/2 Jews living in Germany in 1933, how did 6 million get killer by Nazis.

There is as many black population as there is whites. How come blacks don't have as many billionaire, oil and bank owners as Zionist.Uncle Sam has killed a 100 million black folks, so black folks don't own the media neither. And Muslims and brown people own alot land and oil , next targets.

Steve Bannon reminds me of the evil woman/devil in Passion of the Christ. He just seems to lurk around.

There are very few billionaires. It is said that 90% of the wealth in the US is owned by the top 1% of the people. I don't worry about it. I have been blessed and go to a much richer future.

You know that most of the Jews are not rich..right? My pastor is doing a series on joy. He is using Scripture to teach that you don't add to your life by worrying and your health is improved when you think of positive things. You know there are studies (non religious) that made those findings.

People who pray have a healthier outlook which aids in their recovery.

If CP wishes to travel down that road of prayer, he is free to do so, but the prayers in themselves will not aid his journey or, in reality, give him a soothing ride. It might give him a false sense of security, that's about all.

There are other psychological props which can aid a person it recover from stressful situations. That's all they are, psychological props from make-believe thinking.

Agree, prayer may make you feel like a Walmart mascot smiley caricature on the outside, but still sad in the inside. Thinking about the ancients spiritual superstition hardship history would really depress me and solves little. I would not stop anyone who thinks Religion will work for them. I don't regret, our pass history, only making sure I don't regret our future. Studies of unattached history can add to your learning, living mosting in the pass would not make me happier and a positive person. The Bible was used to enslaved blacks. Look also at whiteman's dictionary, there are double the negative words for blacks than their are words for Whites. No skin off my nose, I'm white.

A few blacks think Jesus was black because he came out of Africa., Imagine how much history would have change if God was in the image of blacks and most people believe that. KKk thinks they are in God's image and superior and their seed is pure and blacks are animals.

Blacks in South Africa 20 years ago were treated this way. They kept blacks like low intelligent animals. Today the blacks have taken over Government control. If your not a rich white man in South Africa , you are disadvantaged in the work force. Many new white slums trailers parks are everywhere now throughout south Africa. This is a great example for women, gays, atheist and race equality. My point being. only rich greedy bastards are the only ones now owning us from honest, and true equality.

You have to make yourself equal in society. If you think it comes automatically your fooling yourself. Nothing is simply given. You can stand around pissing and moaning about your place in said society or you can move to do something about it. The problem with that is that any change people may have to fight for today probably won't be had in their own life time. People want things now and don't care about what happens when they're gone. Then again, when your dead and gone what will any of it matter to you?

I been an over achiever most of my life. A competitive person like Trump except in sports and arts. Been there, done that. Before I go Madd being over competitive in an over ego world. I rather switch from a fighter to a lover. When you get older your are suppose to get wiser, more cooperative and more balanced. Some exception like Trump who is childish and believes bigger toys, rather than greater joys will wins in the end. Old men who send young men to war for their greed.

My actions are preparing for a green , power for the people. By means of building eco village, happier for this healthier aim. If people want to follow a greedy bastards leader into a synthetic world. Let's just see who lives longer and wins more joys in the end.

Guys, you are missing all of the news!!!! Acting Attorney General said she couldn't support Trump's Muslim Ban. He sent her a letter firing her and put another attorney in her place. He fired the head of immigrations and customs.

Hey, they're either with him or against him, and you can see where the "againsts" end up. Besides, what president would want people not in agreeance with his policies kept around? It's no big deal, just your usual whitehouse keeping! Lol!

"Diplomacy" is way over rated. Just ask the Iranians, Russians, Chinese or muslim extremests. Diplomacy is just a publically acceptable alternative to immediate outright force and lets people know "we tried" right before the bombs drop.

Ah...ok. So I wonder if they speak of christian extremists in a similar way. They would not be unreasonable in doing so.Two peoples throwing prayers into the air with supplication for peace, while simultaneously preparing fuses for their bombs. Are we that desparate to bring on Armageddon?

Let us not forget that christians where murdering non-believers way before the musslim religion was even on scene. That being that, I would say any real desperation to usher in armageddon would depend on who you ask. Many christians want armageddon as they believe it will usher in heaven on earth. Musslims, I would say they do not want it as it would confirm christian beliefs, which is in and of itself rediculous since their faith is practically identical to that of christianity. The only real difference between the two is that musslim extremeist still kill for their religious expansionism whereas christians gave up murdering for the cause centuries ago. Either way, they're both wrong. The human race was brainwashed into thinking it was a lesser species incapable of managing itself. Factor in the imposing of religion and we have a modern day existence of war and indifference. If we get rid of 'religion' and all of its corresponding 'gods', then those who would commit atrocities in its name would be shown to be what they really are, terrible people wanting to rule over others. If we do that then those people will be held accountable for their 'human' actions alone rather than letting them be able to use whatever god they can to hide behind.

You say Christians were murdering non-believers "way before" Islam was started. I'd be interested to know your sources for that claim.

Christianity was a persecuted underground faith in the Roman Empire until the emperor Constantine decriminalized it in 313 AD. Muhammad began preaching around 610 AD. So, you're saying that some time after 313 AD and "way before" 610 AD Christians engaged in a campaign of killing people because they didn't believe as the Christians did. I'm not aware of any historical sources for such a claim, and given the historical context, it doesn't seem credible on its face. If you have any historically credible sources regarding Christians having engaged in mass murder for religious reasons between 313-610 AD, please share them.

The history and trail of stories evolve from one Religion to another. Beginning stories most related came from the first major Religion Hinduism, then Judaism, then Christianity, then Muslims. I'm glad most people today, say they are spiritual rather than Religious, we are evolving again, so let's get rid of Trump.

For me it's the 99% unknowns, the mass of the world is 99% core mass is untouched by man. The 6 miles beneath the surface represents crust of the earth, that 1% is what we barely know. When a spiritual unknown comes to us we manifest it into our ego self until it is known. I think of Religion as an ancient spirituality. So much is already known and too much is repeated . Spiritual is the source of of good intentions, don't let a lawyer convince you of otherwise.

My trust is not in spirituality, religion or the center of the earth. My faith is in Jesus Christ.

It takes more effort for each person to make up his/her own definition of spirituality or religion. Why is it necessary to come up with something to call "spirituality." It seems the benefit is not concrete.

For my own understanding, the term spiritual refers to exploring and discovering my true self, the core of my being. Religion is what others construct for the purpose of using that spiritual journey of others, in order to gain control, often for ulterior motive.If we are to accept the accounts which refer to your person called Jesus, his emphasis was also on the individuals responsibility to make that journey inwards. The christian religion has been used to pull the wool over honest inner knowledge and substitute "church." IMHO.

Yes, agree the most important person in the world is your self, self serve. Not selfish because you share 50% of everything with the world. People are basically good, when collective consciousness reaches to 80% of the people. The growth together moves towards higher energy.

Don't know how you separate the Bible from a Religion to the consciousness of Jesus. Do think the earth is all connected by so little explained energy of practicals and love (spiritual) that glues all together. Jesus was a very intelligent and spiritual sided man for his time when people badly lived pass age 30.

There are many great men throughout human history. Take Darwin largest contributor to the theory of evolution. A way of thinking that crosses over more groups and Religions on earth including the populists of Jesus.

I've been there, done that Diane. That's religion. You have chosen it for yourself. Not for me. I reject religion, personally, but offer respect to those who choose it, provided they don't disrespect my choice.. If your faith in your choice is well-founded, you will have no difficulty in respecting my choice.I am not open to evangelism but thank you for your concern all the same.

Me too, I respect, except and open to 1000s of Religions and Gods or Jesus. If others choose just one God to make it their ultimate love, I say whatever works.

My last three Christian girlfriends in a row, dumped me because I could not by saved. My ultimate love is a woman. When we are in bed together, I don't want Jesus sitting on the side of my bed making her feel guilty and creeping me out.

In order to love Jesus with all my heart, the Bible says if your child or other family member dose not love Jesus/God ultimately first. For each family member that dose love Jesus first, you must hate him or her. That would never work for me I love everybody and ultimately my romantic lover first.

Look how US Christians love Muslims, most divided as you could possibly be. Is that love or conditional love. Certainly not live and let live. Where the world is my family like Jonny and you, and I want a much friendlier world. Don't ban Muslims America hurting their families and mine.

Make love your God, than be capable to maximize your love and minimize your fear. I know that sounds so gay, yet it works.

Your girlfriends made no impact because they were in the throes of passion with you. They weren't strong enough in their faith to stay on their feet.

The Luke 14:26 passage should not be read in isolation. There are many parables and examples in the Bible used to clarify the principle. The following verses are about building a house (you are a contractor right?) without realizing what the ultimate cost will be. Choices must be made.

I love my two sisters who became addicted to drugs in the 80s. I don't support them in drug use. I became a surrogate mom to the children of one of them. I purchased a house for them to live in. My sister tried to move her boyfriend in. I told her "NO WAY!" Her children still live in the house - adult children that were impacted by her drug use.

The other sister took a more tragic path. She killed one of her drug associates in my parents' abandoned house. She said he tried to rape her. Long story. Three weeks ago she called me. She said she was walking down the street as cars passed her by. She thought of all of the family and friends that are dying and wondered how she got off path, after graduating from college. The problem was that she had some type of mental disability growing up that went unattended. She developed bipolar behavior and then took drugs - a lethal cocktail. She's trying to come back this way and I am trying to help her.

I personally don't know of any fully functional family. When I compare my dysfunctional family, long and behold I find many worst ones. My pastor Brother tried to cheap me out our Mothers inheritance, he lost. Married a Megalomaniac that prepared me for legal confrontation with Trump, he lost, My ex gave me the love of my life Daughter. Life has been lucky and all in all our Family is balanced.

All tragedies have a silver lining or more often when handled with grace, it takes each one of us to a higher energy level.

Someone who is bipolar, most likely should not touch any drugs. You sound, like a person who is hard working and caring, she is lucky to have you, she is a case for tough love.

All tragedies have a silver lining or more often when handled with grace, it takes each one of us to a higher energy level.

Romans 8:28 "All things work together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose."

James 1:2-4English Standard Version (ESV)

Testing of Your Faith2 Count it all joy, my brothers,[a] when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Your God is not my concern, except in that your belief has given you a sense of superiority; in other words you are able to relate anything anyone says to you against some text you interpret from your bible. Your ego then takes over and allows you to presume your opinion, based upon your interpretations, backed up by your God in your mind, is superior to my opinion - or any other opinion which does not concur with your beliefs.Yes, I do have some understanding of you, Diane, based upon my own experiences in life. I can now look back and know where I also trod a similar path, had a similar egotistical appraisal of others, felt that false sense of superiority over others, often much more senior than myself.But now, beyond what I have explained above, your God does concern me. I was simply hoping that upon giving you respect for what you believe at this point in time, without placing upon you a requirement to change those beliefs, you would also be able to respect my position, unconditionally, at this point in time. Without bringing in the God stuff. It is you, as a bona fide fellow human being, that I am appealing to for respect.Are you able to do that, fully detached from your religion, just for a pure moment in time?Similarly, are you able to give respect to Castlepaloma's life story just for a moment, without overlaying it with your take on religious understanding?Treat him and myself, others likewise, as absolute equals, without bringing in your religious opinion?Neither of us needs to be "right," or "wrong." Each opinion has its place, but injected at the inappropriate place it can unnecessarily bring about discord, confrontation, competition. That is what religious beliefs tend to do, at least when opinions differ. "God" becomes the problem.

Concentrate on the symantics if that's the best you can do but it won't change the fact that quite a few people have been murdered at the hands of 'god fearing' christians. So, ask for whatever, it won't change the facts.

"Christians engaged in a campaign of killing people because they didn't believe as the Christians did. I'm not aware of any historical sources for such a claim"

Although these godly christian acts may not fit your time frame, they are no less valid instances of murder by christians; Christopher Columbus ring a bell? Holy Roman crusades; the Inquisition; the murder of 90% of indigenous "Americans" by Euro-christian invaders...the list goes on. Constantine was a convert who had no problem killing non-believers before or after instituting christianity as the state religion.

"Christianity was a persecuted underground faith in the Roman Empire until the emperor Constantine decriminalized it in 313 AD"

He also 'commissioned' the new testament. So much for gods demand of not 'altering' his word, but since Constantine DID alter the bible it's no longer the valid word of god.

We know for a fact that christians all but wiped out the 'Native Americans', and outlawed the spiritual practices of those that somehow survived the attempted genocide. And what about the importation of slaves from Africa? Where none of them killed for not accepting christianity? That's one thing I could never fully understand, That a race of people could have such faith in a religion that was force fed to them? I mean, does the fact that christianity was shoved down their throats, and having been told their own spiritual practices were animalistic and evil, give them pause enough to at least consider their spiritual roots?

Ivan does that not assume that European equals Christian? Many people call themselves Christians for convenience, i.e. Donald Trump. When people try to use Christianity as a means to an end, they are bringing judgment on themselves.

Matthew 18:7Woe to the world for the causes of sin. These stumbling blocks must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

Luke 17:1Jesus said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come!

Well, my statement, in the context it was given, absolutely indicates the Europeans that engaged in the genocide of the indigenous were in fact christian, no assumptions at all.

I'm pretty sure that the pope wasn't calling himself christian, when all that evil was going on in gods name, for any means to any end other than keeping himself in power, but it was he who set the inquisition in motion directly or indirectly. I understand what you're saying and be that as it may, I would have to say that an extremely high percentage of people who call themselves christian are doing just that. And it's a really 'tricky' thing, that judgement issue. The bible has been altered so many times and every christian, to some extent, at least try to abide by it and claim they believe in it (only the new testament, though) but since it is altered, I would have to assume that anyone still holding it as the pure word of god is in some kind of spiritual trouble with him, no?

Luke 17:1Jesus said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come

I have read through Luke 17:1-10, Diane and, in so doing, it confirms what I am seeing: the instilling of a sense of guilt, fallen from grace, threat of punishment, need for control; being convinced of that need and offering one's self up to that control.

Even those who write the commentaries are there to bolster that control.

I have no objection to anyone owning a respect and reverence for a "higher self," even to the extent of naming it "God," with a capital G. I do object to and reject the god which mono-theist religions promote and use for control. That is the one you promote here, right?

Yes, I know full well what you are discussing. You call it Christianity, I call it Christianism....a religion that cannot claim any superiority over any other. Yet it tries to rule the world through guilt, threat and fear. This is why you see me getting "worked up," occasionally.As much as you might be genuine in your beliefs and intentions, your religion is all tied up with the politics and hypocrisy of your country and throughout the world. You cannot see this because you have been blinded by the dogma which has been concocted over many hundreds of years. More so in latter years by the mega-church popularism.Open your eyes Diane, there is more to this world that's worth working for than that fictitious God.The altruistic work of and within the church is not in question here but even that can sometimes be used as a clandestine effort to convert.... Bogus intentions in my view.

I'm not working for salvation. Once saved, always saved. I'm doing the things I do because God wants us to love him and other people. When you love people, you are concerned about them and want to help them.

I attend a mega-church; however, it doesn't feel like that because we divide into small growth growths. We meet at least once weekly, study and pray together, listen to each others problems, etc. The interaction, learning and growing takes place in these small groups.

I'm putting you on my prayer list. You seem to get out of joint which is really unhealthy. God wants you to have His peace. That is nothing to be upset about is it. How would it inconvenience your life? You might feel you need to stop crack, meth, heroine or weed. Not all at once. He accepts us just as we are. As we grow, the habits go away.

We have couples that come to church that are not married. Some are same sex. They are not rejected from sitting under teaching. They must meet qualifications for participation in leadership.

Yes Diane, and you continue that "bad experience" by your presumption that you have to pray for me. Please don't! You have NO knowledge of my private life, to presume you know what is best for me is christian arrogance and the very attitude I reject. Once and for all! I have already offered you respect for your personal beliefs, and continue to do so, yet receive no respect in return. The "god" who (that) tells you to do this is in your mind. Leave it there. It's your's alone.Castle has said his views about christian religion. I concur. It's a danger for this world.And that anti-christ you all talk so much about is within and about that church. A smokescreen of gigantic proportions.Once again I am not knocking the spiritual journey of yourself or anyone else. Just the habits which your church teaches you.

I have said all that's to be said from my point of view. Take it or leave it, you lead your life as you wish, it's your journey and I cannot interfere.I will un-follow this thread now because I have better things to do.

Forgot to add, Luke 17:1 is absolutely NOT about Satan. It is about Christians "saying they are" and then being molesting priest, adulterous pastors, murders, liars, thieves, etc. Other people observe their behavior (like you mention the pope) and deciding they don't want to be Christians.

My ex Christians girlfriends took me to church to listen to a pastor repeat on how we all must love our enemies.

I don't have any enemies, no jealousy of other Religions or non believers. No quilt about sex, nor fear of God or anyone. No onesidedness. No feelings about I am better or worst than anyone else. How come your God has all these serious problems and I don't. Am I the master of the Universe and God has a lot of growing up to do?, like get out of the stone age. Spirituality is the unknowns waiting to be discovered, not repeated stuff we already know from one good book when there are 1000s of good books.

Now you believe Steve Bannon is the anti Christ. Then Bannon can take a very nice Christian and get them to do very bad things. I'm not against anyone of thing, just not for mentally illness people who need serious help like Bannon/Trump who ruin people lives by tooling with Religion.

When the source of the problem is the mind. But the Religious tool works well for 90% of the world's wars for control through Hierarchy power and greed. You join the problem when your againist anyone or thing, like your anti Christ.

Well, it looks like we are going in a direction of arguing. I posted the question I wanted to discuss. We all are baked in on whether or not God exists. I am not angry but will not respond to any other comments on the existence of God.

Ivan, popes are not necessarily Christians. Popes change their minds. God doesn't. He never makes mistakes. He gives us free will because He wants us to follow Him because we "want" to rather than be robots.

I wasn't aware that the Bible had been altered, other than JWs with their New World Bible. JWs are considered a cult. Catholics are not Christians because they are Catholic. It is a personal choice that many do not make. They follow a tradition and family legacy.

Guys often tell girls they love them to get them off their feet. Good parents teach their daughters to not believe it. Many men went into the priesthood for sexual exploitation reasons not because they are Christians. I'll leave it alone there. I don't got by what people say. I observe their behavior over time. Anyone that believes everything someone says is setting themselves up for a pidgeon drop.

The Bible has been translated from the original Greek and Hebrew. I have not heard of any alterations. I would love to know where the Bible was altered.

Popes are not necessarily christian? Aren't popes the head of the catholic church? which IS christian? "...However, any organization that says "Catholics are not Christians," is ignoring the history of Christianity. The name Christian predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by over a millennium. Many Evangelicals who think that Catholics are not Christian may be surprised to learn they accept the authority of several Catholic councils every time they pick up their Bible." http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/are_ … istian.php

So, I guess "pope" is just a position not requiring religious affiliation?

If god doesn't make mistakes how do you account for homosexuals? and gods hatred of them? and you can't say he doesn't hate them while at the same time accepting the bibles command of killing them pretty much on sight. You don't think god commanding believers to kill something he created qualifies that created thing as a mistake? If god had the ability to do the job right the first time, and it is believed that god made ALL things, why would he not do it right the first time? why create something, say it is good, then down the road change his mind about it? And PLEASE don't repeat the nonsense that god put homosexuality here as a temptation to test the faithful.

"I wasn't aware that the Bible had been altered,"

Translation, firstly, is a major issue that has corrupted the actual contents of the bible; the "red sea" for example, properly translated is the "reed sea", two entirely different things and places. So, the translation errors alone that have been, for whatever reason ignored, makes the entire thing suspect at best. Although I will say that jewish tradition required the exact duplicating of the tora, or old testament, by hand, word for word. I guess gods chosen didn't feel the need to add the new testament to their bible. So unless you can read and understand hebrew and have one of those 'hand duplicated' old testaments, you have been reading and having faith in an altered document. It may not have been purposeful adulteration but it's there none the less.

I would like to know, if you can tell me, why the jehova's witnesses are considered a cult while other, equally control oriented, religions are not? I'm sure if one were to dig deep enough they would find the catholic church at the base of that spurious information. The last time I checked a cult was defined as "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object(God)." Isn't that what all religions practice to some degree?

"I don't got by what people say. I observe their behavior over time. Anyone that believes everything someone says is setting themselves up for a pidgeon drop."

What if "everything" that is being said supposedly comes from god? would those who believe THAT "everything" be setting themselves up for a pidgeon drop? I would say yes.

"The Bible has been translated from the original Greek and Hebrew. I have not heard of any alterations."

The use of vowels in hebrew is fairly recent in relation to the languages length of existence. That alone would make for egregious error in translation. The new testament is an alteration as well as it was not of god but of a man looking to court the constituency.

Codex Sinaiticus;"Codex Sinaiticus is one of the most important books in the world. Handwritten well over 1600 years ago, the manuscript contains the Christian Bible in Greek, including the oldest complete copy of the New Testament. Its heavily corrected text is of outstanding importance for the history of the Bible and the manuscript – the oldest substantial book to survive Antiquity" – http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/ No where in the codex is there mentioned the resurrection of jesus. I have, somewhere in my notes, an excerpt from the gospel of mark that shows there was no reference to jesus' resurrection but rather gives four simple words; "this is the end." The oldest and most complete christian bible ever found makes no mention of the resurrection but the newer "versions" do. I also have an excerpt that says when mary went to jesus' tomb an angel met her and told her to go tell, but she was so scared by the experience that she never told anyone! The phrase "forgive them father, they know not what they do" was never in any book of the bible or written by the author of that particular book. It was added later for effect. If these things are not alterations then what is?Hebrew is what certain occultists call a "barbarous" language. So, it's no wonder that much of the translation is wrong. Then again, what is christianity, really, other than an "altered" version of judaism? I would say that christianity is a simple way for non-jews to be jewish, at least in spirituality.

I know this all sounds terribly biased, because it is, but in reality the good that comes from it is that since the bible has been altered on numerous occasions, and god hasn't wiped us all of the face of the earth for it, that he has, to some degree, accepted the fact that humanity itself has changed and therefore is okay with biblical alterations just so long as we all still follow the rules. That being said, perhaps all we really need are the rules themselves, No? Not the hellfire and brimstone punishment for failure to comply.

I don't know of an instance where homosexuality is isolated. It is a sin like lying, cheating, coveting, stealing, jealousy, etc. I isolated to completed address. I tweeted Fahreed Zakaria to let him know his documentary was wrong.

The BIble doesn't say kill homosexuals on sight. You wroteIf god doesn't make mistakes how do you account for homosexuals? and gods hatred of them? and you can't say he doesn't hate them while at the same time accepting the bibles command of killing them pretty much on sight. You don't think god commanding believers to kill something he created qualifies that created thing as a mistake? If god had the ability to do the job right the first time, and it is believed that god made ALL things, why would he not do it right the first time? why create something, say it is good, then down the road change his mind about it? And PLEASE don't repeat the nonsense that god put homosexuality here as a temptation to test the faithful.

Leviticus 18 says to not associate with them. Verse 29 says "cut them off" which means do not associate with them. You mentioned homosexuality. Notice this chapter is not just about homosexuality. Don't have sex with a) your mother, b) your father, c) your sister, d) your brother, e) daughter/son of your daughter/son, etc. It is not just homosexuality. It is sexual sin. Nothing about killing anyone. I have a friend that practiced homosexuality about 30 years ago. He is a pastor and works with young people coming out of homosexuality.

Leviticus 18New International Version (NIV)

Unlawful Sexual Relations18 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.

7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.

13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.

14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.’

So, I guess "pope" is just a position not requiring religious affiliation?

Me: No it is a person who meets earthly qualifications for the position. a) Catholic, b) a priest, c) whatever other requirements are. There is no requirement that the person have "accepted Christ as their Savior.

Methodist preachers must be members of a Methodist church. A church is an organization. What is taught is based on the Statement of Faith.

Many lie and say they are Christians but turn out to be frauds. In the Black community, a pastor has status. I don't know about the white community but, back in the day, a Black person could be nobody at work. The person could be called "n" word, treated badly, etc. On Sunday, being Deacon Bob or Rev. Joe meant something. Black people could have positions in church before anywhere else. It was easy to be conned.

"Me: Absolutely not. This happens when people pass information along."

Isn't that the per se of biblical writings? People passing along stories?

"You saidthat hey had excepted Jesus' teachings so god was within them making the church anywhere they surmoned.MENOT true."

I'll find the source another time. You may be not so pleasantly surprised!

At any rate, Diane, we can believe one version or any other that pleases us. The fact is that none of it is provable until we die or live long enough to answer on judgement day, if it really exists. So, jehovas can believe what they want, christians can believe whatever they want etc. etc, but overall I see no worldly improvement by any of it. Depending on who you ask, worldly improvement doesn't matter as long as you die a member of at least one of the faiths.

And I gladly welcome your responses to what I post so don't quit now! LolThere just aren't many people who can calmly discuss ANYTHING no less the shortcomings of their religious beliefs. I'm sure you don't think your beliefs have any shortcomings! And maybe one day that will be proven to be true. Until then...Ivan is on the loose! Lol!Have a nice day today and every day!

Oh yes, one last thing!

New American Standard Bible

Leviticus 20:13 (NAS) 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.New Century Version

Leviticus 20:13 (NCV) "'If a man has sexual relations with another man as a man does with a woman, these two men have done a hateful sin. They must be put to death. They have brought it on themselves.New International Reader's Version

Leviticus 20:13 (NIRV) " 'Suppose a man has sex with another man as he would have sex with a woman. I hate what they have done. They must be put to death. Anything that happens to them will be their own fault.New International Version

Leviticus 20:13 (NIV) “ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.New King James Version

Leviticus 20:13 (NKJV) If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.New Living Translation

Leviticus 20:13 (NLT) “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.New Revised Standard

Leviticus 20:13 (NRS) If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha

Leviticus 20:13 (NRSA) If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.Orthodox Jewish Bible

Vayikra 20:13 (OJB) If an ish also lie with zachar, as he lieth with an isha, both of them have committed to’evah; they shall surely be put to death; their dahm shall be upon them.Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible

Leviticus 20:13 (RHE) If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination: let them be put to death. Their blood be upon them.Revised Standard Version

Leviticus 20:13 (RSV) If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha

Leviticus 20:13 (RSVA) If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.Third Millennium Bible

Leviticus 20:13 (TMB) "`If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.Third Millennium Bible w/ Apocrypha

Leviticus 20:13 (TMBA) "`If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.Tyndale

Leviticus 20:13 (TYN) Yf a man lye with the mankynde after the maner as with woma kynd, they haue both comitted an abhominacion and shall dye for it. Their bloude be apon their heed.The Webster Bible

Leviticus 20:13 (WBT) If a man also shall lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.World English Bible

Leviticus 20:13 (WEB) If a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.Wycliffe

Leviticus 20:13 (WYC) If a man sleepeth with a man, by lechery of a woman, ever either hath wrought unleaveful thing, die they by death; their blood be on them. (If a man sleepeth with a man, like in fleshly coupling with a woman, they both have done an unlawful thing, and they both shall be put to death; their blood be on them.)Young's Literal Translation

Leviticus 20:13 (YLT) `And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood [is] on them.

Ivan, I started to go through the commentary and notes on this particular passage but it would require going into Hebrew customs and cultic worship at that time that included sex, semen, orgies, etc.

After thought, I figured it is best to explain it like this.

Because Adam and Eve sinned, we were all doomed to die - a life that does not end with God. As you might say, "Go to hell." However, God loved us so much He wanted us to be with Him forever, if we want/choose to be with Him. He doesn't want to force us.

I hope this explains:1. Eve conversation with the serpent (I didn’t say snake)God to Adam: Genesis 2:18 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."Serpent to Eve: Genesis 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman.Romans 3;23 For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2. Because Adam sinned and doomed mankind to death God provided a gift of eternal life (not ending in death)John 3:36 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

"Ivan, I started to go through the commentary and notes on this particular passage but it would require going into Hebrew customs and cultic worship at that time that included sex, semen, orgies, etc."

You know what the funny part of it is, the first Adams had no such restrictions. They came later with the last Adam when the need for procreation developed.And let's not forget that christianity IS judaic, it's just a softer more "acceptable" version created for the non-jewish masses.

"Because Adam and Eve sinned, we were all doomed to die - a life that does not end with God. As you might say, "Go to hell." However, God loved us so much He wanted us to be with Him forever, if we want/choose to be with Him. He doesn't want to force us."

If it really is a personal choice why is so much evil attatched to NOT choosing him? If you bias a choice with threats of eternal horrific punishment for failure to comply is it really a freely made decision? or is it one simply based, for most people, on not wanting to be punished forever? If god truly wanted people to choose him WITHOUT fear why add the fear factor at all? When you start adding punishment and reward to the mix choosing the "right" path becomes, again, for most people, more a matter of coveting the more desirable outcome rather than a true love of god, no?

"I hope this explains:1. Eve conversation with the serpent (I didn’t say snake)God to Adam: Genesis 2:18 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."Serpent to Eve: Genesis 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman.Romans 3;23 For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Again, it all depends on the source of the information. There are writings within mans history that say the "serpent" was actually a group involved with the creation of the first Adam that revealed to the Adam that he was actually not free but was in fact a slave meant to be kept ignorant of his predicament. Once the group was discovered it was infiltrated by the oppressors and corrupted in order to discredit it. That corrupted version of the group is what is now referred to as the "serpent cult" or "the cult of Set"...Ring any bells yet?

"2. Because Adam sinned and doomed mankind to death God provided a gift of eternal life (not ending in death)John 3:36 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Jesus was admittedly the first alien-human hybrid, gods genetics mingled with the virgin Mary's genetics. So I guess you could realistically SAY that god and Jesus were the same person.Again, according to Kaballa teachings, Adam was included in the "punishment" phase because he lacked leadership in preventing his helper from sinning. You see, people think that Eve was created from Adams rib which makes her "even" with Adam in all aspects, side by side. The reality is that the brain is the main part of human awareness, not the lower part where the ribs reside. That being that, if Eve was meant to be seen as equal to Adam she would have been created from the part of Adam equal to his conscious awareness as even the scull is made of bone, but she wasn't. Instead she was created from bone taken from the "lower" or "lesser" part of Adam, symbolically showing her inferiority to him, at least in applying her mental inferiority, right or wrong. So, in gods eyes Adams sin was worse than simply "eating" of the fruit of knowledge. It was a sin of failure to control the lesser creation known as wo-man. He failed in his assignment of managing ALL things within the garden, his number one priority. Considering the baby-like stage of man at the time it was easy enough to have them believe whatever "god" wanted them to believe. There are also writings that tell of Adam and Eve living in a cave upon being ousted from Eden but that's for another time.

"...whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

From stardust we came and to stardust we return. Put in the proper context we all do have everlasting life, just in a different form or phase, if you will.

You know what the funny part of it is, the first Adams had no such restrictions.

Response: I don't understand the "no such restrictions." Please explain. I provided the passage where God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:18

They came later with the last Adam when the need for procreation developed.

Response: God did not need to develop a way to procreate. He "creates!"

I wonder if, before eating of the tree, they could have lived on forever in the garden, naked, with their children when they had them. I can't support this part but there is nothing to refute it ... I don't think.

You wroteAnd let's not forget that christianity IS judaic, it's just a softer more "acceptable" version created for the non-jewish masses.

My response

1. Salvation was definitely offered to Jews first because the Messianic line is through the Jews. They were exposed to Him first.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

2. "Softer" and more "acceptable" is not the issue. God knew we could not keep the law. I think there are 613 Jewish laws. But this was NOT part of Christianity. It was before Christianity.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

There are people still trying to "KEEP" laws and that misses the whole point of1) Love God with all you have and2) Love others as yourself

You know what the funny part of it is, the first Adams had no such restrictions.

Response: I don't understand the "no such restrictions." Please explain. I provided the passage where God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:18"

I was referring to the restrictions of what is now considered "proper" sexual conduct. Before man was told to "go forth and multiply" sexual preference was of no importance. It was after Eve was made capable of procreating that "proper" sex became an issue.

"They came later with the last Adam when the need for procreation developed.

Response: God did not need to develop a way to procreate. He "creates!" "

Then why cause Eve to have to bear children? Why not just "create" all the people he wanted himself?

"I wonder if, before eating of the tree, they could have lived on forever in the garden, naked, with their children when they had them. I can't support this part but there is nothing to refute it ... I don't think."

I'm not even sure the "nakedness" was literal. It may very well have meant they were free of understanding or "naked" in what they knew.

"You wroteAnd let's not forget that christianity IS judaic, it's just a softer more "acceptable" version created for the non-jewish masses.

My response

1. Salvation was definitely offered to Jews first because the Messianic line is through the Jews. They were exposed to Him first."

That was part of the game plan. The jews already had a system of redemption in place. They had to because of the sheer amount of commandments they were supposed to follow.

"Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

Not quite sure why you included that but, okay.

2. "Softer" and more "acceptable" is not the issue. God knew we could not keep the law."

Like I said, it was a softer version, made easier to accept therefore it brought in more "followers". 600+ rules vs. 1 rule. How many people do you know of that would readily choose the 600+, of which the failure to follow could get you killed or your family cursed for generations, as opposed to the 1?...Easier, softer.

"I think there are 613 Jewish laws. But this was NOT part of Christianity. It was before Christianity."

Again, softer!

"Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

I don't know about that. You supercede 600 with 1, there's some abolition going on there.

"There are people still trying to "KEEP" laws and that misses the whole point of1) Love God with all you have and2) Love others as yourself"

Perhaps, but I bet those law keepers would beg to differ. To them, keeping the laws IS an act of love for god. So does it really matter HOW one shows their love for god?

"When you love, you don't want to hurt others."

Then how do you explain all the people god killed or had ordered to be killed, before the advent of christianity, while simultaneously telling the world that he loved all of his creations? except for homosexuals and witches, that is. I'm sure that the canaanites, among others, would disagree with your statement if any were left alive to talk about it.

This is what god should do, since he can do anything he so chooses; send the world back in time to the beginning and start it all off by setting down the tenets of christianity as the law of the land with Jesus sent into the midst of it all fulfilling his role as teacher, and eliminate all the threats of killing and going to hell for failure to comply. If he were to do that I believe things would turn out much better then they have. What could it hurt, right? After all, he did kill everyone on the planet at one time, with the exception of Noah and family, because he didn't like the way they were acting. So why not just start again.

Genesis 3:7-11Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” 11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?

The language translation issues are problematic enough, add attempted translation of perception and it leaves most of us to grasp at straws in an attempt to figure out what was truly meant. Have you ever worked in a small garden? Imagine one as large and detailed as Eden. "Tending" a garden while physically naked can be likened to a mild form of torture!

"Genesis 3:7-11Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."

I guess the first question to be asked would be, if we are to take the "naked" thing literally, is how does someone, who doesn't even know they are "naked" know about something (sewing) that was not even in existence? Why have understanding of sewing when clothing itself did not exist? Did the forbidden fruit instill upon their minds the ability to sew? Probably not. And what was so wrong about having their eyes opened? Granted, understanding of so-called "evil" or "sinful" things was part of the package, but isn't having "closed eyes" the equivalent of ignorance? And to what end does ignorance serve mankind?

"9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” 11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

That's the first question asked by slavemasters of the 19th century, before killing the slave, when they found one who could read or write: "who taught you that!?!" The cardinal rule of maintaining the slave mentality in slaves is to weed out those who would undermine it. The fear of retribution for disobedience went a long way in keeping slavery alive and well since the first Adam.

"If I can't believe all of it, I can't believe any of it."

Does that "all" include the "forbidden" knowledge purposely hidden from people not only by god but the religious leadership as well? Not knowing it existed doesn't make it any less a part of the overall picture. A friend of mine was arrested for D.W.I. some years back as his blood alcohol content was .08. The arresting officer told him the law had changed two months prior and rather than .10 being legally indicative of driving while intoxicated, it was now .08. My friend said he wasn't aware of the change and the officer said that "if you are going to drink and drive YOU need to know the law".

My point being, that just because we believe something, based on what we have been presented, in no way absolves us from finding out all there is to know. Resting on what is given lends itself to acting on half truths. And I would say that spending our lives, in some form or another, holding onto only halftruths, is a great injustice.

Ivan, thank you for a respectful, though skeptical, discussion. I should be ready at all times to defend the hope that lies within me and love answering questions. There are so many things that people question but can easily be explained. It takes a lot of time to lay the ground work for explanations. I've been studying since 1978.

You wrote:

If it really is a personal choice why is so much evil attatched to NOT choosing him?

Response: I think many are zealous to try to encourage people to accept Christ. It is, however, wrong to try to shove it down anyone's throat. It can cause people to be turned off. Some people have the "gift" of evangelism and are able to lead many to Christ. Examples are: Billy Graham, Dr. Charles Stanley, Dr. Anthony Evans, etc. I have never heard any of them try to scare anyone into accepting Christ.

You wrote:

If you bias a choice with threats of eternal horrific punishment for failure to comply is it really a freely made decision? or is it one simply based, for most people, on not wanting to be punished forever?

Response: Again, it is a personal choice. It is unfortunate when people try to scare others into making a choice. It is not a "by choice or by force" situation.

You wroteIf god truly wanted people to choose him WITHOUT fear why add the fear factor at all? When you start adding punishment and reward to the mix choosing the "right" path becomes, again, for most people, more a matter of coveting the more desirable outcome rather than a true love of god, no?

ResponseThe punishment was not added. It was already there. God is holy and must judge sin. In the Jewish faith, sin required a blood sacrifice.

Jesus is called the "sacrificial" lamb because He shed His blood once for all. Blood sacrifices were no longer needed. All that is needed to accept Christ and the shedding of His blood on my/your/their behalf.

Remember God directing Abraham to take Isaac up to be sacrificed?We see a foreshadowing of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb in the story of Abraham and Isaac (see Genesis 22:1-14). Abraham took his son to Moriah, at the instruction of God, with the intention of sacrificing him. When the boy asked where the sacrificial lamb was, Abraham replied, "God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son" (Genesis 22:8). Abraham was prepared to offer his child to God, but God stopped him from so doing and supplied a ram to be sacrificed instead. On a greater scale, God provided the Lamb for us – His own Son. Only the sacrifice of God is truly sufficient for our atonement.

God made a way out for Abraham. There was a ram in the bush that was used as the blood sacrifice instead of Isaac.

When the Israelites were preparing to leave Egypt, the king wanted the first born male of each Israelite family killed.

Jesus is also referred to as the Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7). The Passover is described in Exodus 12. The first Passover occurred during God's deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt. The angel of death passed over Egypt and killed the firstborn sons. However, the Israelites were instructed to kill a lamb without blemish, wipe the lamb's blood over the doorpost, and stay inside (eating the lamb and unleavened bread in haste). When the angel of death saw the blood on their doors, he passed over, thus sparing the firstborn of the Israelites. Passover was to be memorialized each year as a feast that lasts seven days. In essence, the lamb is the protector of the Israelites and also seen as the atoner for them. It is because of the blood of the lamb that they are spared death. It is because of Jesus' blood that we are spared (spiritual) death. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). We are "covered by Jesus' blood" and therefore are spared death and given life. Interestingly, Jesus' crucifixion occurred during Passover.

You wroteAgain, it all depends on the source of the information. There are writings within mans history that say the "serpent" was actually a group involved with the creation of the first Adam that revealed to the Adam that he was actually not free but was in fact a slave meant to be kept ignorant of his predicament. Once the group was discovered it was infiltrated by the oppressors and corrupted in order to discredit it. That corrupted version of the group is what is now referred to as the "serpent cult" or "the cult of Set"...Ring any bells yet?

Response: It is true there are many sources. It's interesting that those sources attempt to deny the validity of the Bible. Notice the Flynn/Russia/Trump/GOP/DNC thing going on now. Whom do you believe?

From your military service, you know how to vet all intel. I find no credible sources that provide legitmate claims against the Bible.

"Response: It is true there are many sources. It's interesting that those sources attempt to deny the validity of the Bible."

Yes, some do, but others, rather than attempting to deny the validity, try to explain cause and effect throughout the bible rather than just calling it all "supernatural". And who is to say they are wrong for doing that? You don't blindly accept everything our modern day "leaders" tell us, do you? So why be so accepting of something written at a time of utter human turmoil, when anything promising relief was readily accepted as true and factual?There are many "stories" in the bible that are actually altered versions of pre-existing creationist stories. For example, the story of Noah, originated with the Sumerians, The great flood itself, (Sumerian), The First Adam (Sumerian), The Last Adam (Sumerian), The "twelve tribes of Judah, which is the Jewish version of The twelve mothers of the twelve tribes of man (Sumerian), the list goes on. Christianity, therefore, is a softened version of judaism (as god no longer used threats and or actual acts of violence against the people to coherce them into doing what he wished them to).

"From your military service, you know how to vet all intel. I find no credible sources that provide legitmate claims against the Bible."

That's because there are none, other than the fact that many of the "stories" in the bible actually pre-exist it. But what there is plenty of are writings, once kept from man by the religious elite, that give enough information as to clarify the "metaphoric" nature of biblical writings and that show, the most important parts, were around well before the implemention of monotheism, which originated but was short lived in Egypt through king Akhenaten...And where were the jews before the exodus? Egypt!

"Notice the Flynn/Russia/Trump/GOP/DNC thing going on now. Whom do you believe?"

I believe that Trump probably did and does quietly deal with Russia...On Americas behalf. As president that's what he is supposed to do. The nonsense being put out is, in my opinion, a last ditch effort to discredit him and have him removed from his post. The fact of the matter is that Russia is a major world player and as such we HAVE to deal with them. The cold war is over and has been for some time. Deal with Russia or alienate them AND their partner countries. People should look at President Trump and Russia the same way they should look at the bible; What's presented on the outside is in no way indicative of the truth going on beneath the surface.

"It takes a lot of time to lay the ground work for explanations. I've been studying since 1978."

That is true, it does take a lot. I've been pondering about god and the bible since sunday school(over 45 years!) I have, however, studied more intently, the aspects of the bible not actually IN the bible itself. The only place you find that type of information is through kabbalah and the Apocryphal books. If you do that, the first and most important question you have to consider, before even starting your search, is why that information was precluded from being given to the masses, why it was "hidden" from the world.

"We all have to research and make our own choices."

I whole heartedly agree. And as simple an ending to the discussion as it may seem, with that statement there is nothing left to argue! Have a good evening, Diane. Sleep tight, and don't let the evolutionists bite! Lol

You said: "In support of “Red Sea” being the correct translation and the correct body of water is the Greek Septuagint (LXX) from 200 BC. This is the earliest translation of the Hebrew Bible known, and the words yam suph are consistently translated with the Greek words eruthros thalassa or “Red Sea”"

And the more suspect they are the more captivating they become and the more ad space they sell!

"Putin is a murderer. Trump does not know what he is dealing with. Somehow Flynn will be paid for taking the fall."

Murder is relative. Just ask a canaanite or Irish catholic(IRA)!

"No evolutionist bites on me. I s(pray) them away!"

Lol! I like your unshakability. When you have two "unshakable" beliefs or viewpoints going head to head it will undoubtably manifest previously unknown truths on both sides. What do we do when unknown truths are made known? Do we change our beliefs or continue in them? It doesn't necessarily lessen what we had earlier believed but at a minimum should cause us to re-examine those beliefs from ALL perspectives. It would go a long way in developing a unified people.

"There are many drug users, pedophiles, control freaks, and others who try to come up with a new revelation that allows them to do what they do."

That applies to the religious as well, it's called rationalization.

"The way I measure Biblical truth is, "If it is not consistent with the Bible, it is a lie.!""

I understand that but, consistency in no way indicates "truthfulness". In some cases it even lends itself toward maintaining the untruthful. The world has been "consistently" fed the image of Jesus as a caucasion with fairly straight hair and white complexion. The only people of the time fitting that description, if you can believe alternate sources much older than the bible, where the Aryans (documented by the Sumerians and Hindus), who originated from another planet.

"Revelation 22:19 And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book."

Biblical anthropologists have proven that not only has the bible been changed in its wording through translation but also through personal changes, for effectiveness, by the various scribes over the life of its existence. So, what does god intend to do with those who believe it has not been changed and hold it as totally "intact" from its inception? Are those who don't realize it has been altered damned for extolling the altered versions, which is ALL versions but one?

"Point: There are consequences for trying to change what is in the Bible"

I understand there are consequences for the corruptors but what of those believers who don't know or refuse to believe that it has been changed?

"1 John 5:13 I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life."

Okay.

"Point: The Bible is the Christian believer's final authority!"

And that would be fine were it not "illegally" altered from the original. So what do people do? Continue to uphold it in spite of the changes and be damned or Seek out an original version and learn hebrew in order to know it in its true and complete original form? Which is what god wanted. It's a very tough decision but it is one I feel the faithful must make in order to KNOW that they are following the truth as it was set down by god from its inception, and not the "relative" truth of broadspectrum belief because it's still here. Or has god become okay with the altered versions? If ones everlasting existence is dependent on the truth actually being true I would say that the issue of the bibles lost "originality" is one of utmost importance, no?

You said:I understand that but, consistency in no way indicates "truthfulness". In some cases it even lends itself toward maintaining the untruthful. The world has been "consistently" fed the image of Jesus as a caucasion with fairly straight hair and white complexion.

Response:There is absolutely NOWHERE in the Bible that says God is CAUCASIAN. That is the result of human interpretation ... not unlike Kaballah and the other sources that you cite. God existed before He created color and there is no partiality in Jesus Christ.

You can't blame God for what people (regardless of color) do. The untruthfulness comes from people "adding to" the Word of God.

YouThe only people of the time fitting that description, if you can believe alternate sources much older than the bible, where the Aryans (documented by the Sumerians and Hindus), who originated from another planet.

ResponseI know absolutely nothing about the Sumerians and Hindus. It doesn't matter. It it were important to salvation it would be in the Bible. All of those word bites are distractions that make no point whatsoever.

"Response:There is absolutely NOWHERE in the Bible that says God is CAUCASIAN. That is the result of human interpretation ... not unlike Kaballah and the other sources that you cite. God existed before He created color and there is no partiality in Jesus Christ."

I didn't say "god", I said Jesus' depiction is that of a white man, which so many who claim to read the bible have accepted. Regardless of whether or not the bible says it doesn't change the fact that that particular "image" of jesus is prolific among believers.

"You can't blame God for what people (regardless of color) do."

Well, actually you can in some instances. If god told the hebrews to "kill everything in the city", and he did, and they do kill everything in the city, and they did, who is to blame for the killing?

"The untruthfulness comes from people "adding to" the Word of God."

I'm not quite sure of what you mean by that.

"YouThe only people of the time fitting that description, if you can believe alternate sources much older than the bible, where the Aryans (documented by the Sumerians and Hindus), who originated from another planet.ResponseI know absolutely nothing about the Sumerians and Hindus. It doesn't matter."

You don't think it matters that the primary tenets of the bible, aside from Jesus, are assimilated versions from much older sources? If people claim the bible to be the end-all of all things "godly" I think the fact that some of it has been, for lack of a better word, "borrowed" from pre-existing sources makes the latter somewhat "suspect".

" It it were important to salvation it would be in the Bible. All of those word bites are distractions that make no point whatsoever."

Is ostracizing homosexuals important to salvation? Christians may not, at gods command, kill them here in America too often anymore, but the order to do so is in the bible. Personally, I can't see how killing any of our bretheren, whether god inspired or not, is anything to have on your conscious when entering so-called eternity. But, if god says it's the thing to do, then it's the thing to do, I guess.

I didn't say "god", I said Jesus' depiction is that of a white man, which so many who claim to read the bible have accepted. Regardless of whether or not the bible says it doesn't change the fact that that particular "image" of jesus is prolific among believers.

ResponseJesus IS God. The Jewish line was chosen as the Messianic line. There are Jews of all colors. People think of reasons to try to condemn the Bible. There is no criticism under the sun that can stand up to Bible doctrine. These same complaints keep raising their heads.

You (blaming God)

Well, actually you can in some instances. If god told the hebrews to "kill everything in the city", and he did, and they do kill everything in the city, and they did, who is to blame for the killing?

ResponseThe OT detailed the lives of people involved in deviant living.

A basic knowledge of Canaanite culture reveals its inherent moral wickedness. The Canaanites were a brutal, aggressive people who engaged in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. The Canaanites’ sin was so repellent that God said, “The land vomited out its inhabitants” (Leviticus 18:25). Even so, the destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3–5,12:2-3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. Individual Canaanites, like Rahab in Jericho, could still find that mercy follows repentance (Joshua 2). God's desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32, 33:11).

Besides dealing with national sins, God used the conquest of Canaan to create a religious/historical context in which He could eventually introduce the Messiah to the world. This Messiah would bring salvation not only to Israel, but also to Israel’s enemies, including Canaan (Psalm 87:4-6; Mark 7:25–30).

It must be remembered that God gave the Canaanite people more than sufficient time to repent of their evil ways—over 400 years (Genesis 15:13–16)! The book of Hebrews tells us that the Canaanites were “disobedient,” which implies moral culpability on their part (Hebrews 11:31). The Canaanites were aware of God's power (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9) and could have sought repentance. Except in rare instances, they continued their rebellion against God until the bitter end.

But didn’t God also command the Israelites to kill non-combatants? The biblical record is clear that He did. Here again, we must remember that, while it is true the Canaanite women did not fight, this in no way means they were innocent, as their seductive behavior in Numbers 25 indicates (Numbers 25:1–3). However, the question still remains: what about the children? This is not an easy question to answer, but we must keep several things in mind. First, no human person (including infants) is truly innocent. The Scripture teaches that we are all born in sin (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). This implies that all people are morally culpable for Adam’s sin in some way. Infants are just as condemned from sin as adults are.

You"The untruthfulness comes from people "adding to" the Word of God."

ResponseThings like1. God said kill all the homosexuals2. Jesus was a homosexual3. God sends people to hell (People are already condemned because of sin. He offers eternal life through His son Jesus)4. Multiple "prophets and pastors" added requirements like you aren't save until you can speak in tongues, you have to pray for the Holy Spirit to "come" on you.etc.

YouYou don't think it matters that the primary tenets of the bible, aside from Jesus, are assimilated versions from much older sources? If people claim the bible to be the end-all of all things "godly" I think the fact that some of it has been, for lack of a better word, "borrowed" from pre-existing sources makes the latter somewhat "suspect".

ResponseAgain, that's what you choose to believe. I believe the Bible, as it is, to be the inerrant Word of God. I challenge anyone to show me something that has changed and has significance. That is what faith is all about.

" It it were important to salvation it would be in the Bible. All of those word bites are distractions that

YouIs ostracizing homosexuals important to salvation? Christians may not, at gods command, kill them here in America too often anymore, but the order to do so is in the bible. Personally, I can't see how killing any of our bretheren, whether god inspired or not, is anything to have on your conscious when entering so-called eternity. But, if god says it's the thing to do, then it's the thing to do, I guess.

ResponseAgain, God wants everyone to be saved, including homosexuals. Homosexuality is a sin like murder, lying, cheating. When you look at it as sin, what do you do when confronted with sin? If you can't persuade the person to change, don't get caught up in what they do.

There were killings in the OT. I provided an in depth explanation in last post. Since Jesus died for our sins, He became the sacrificial lamb, the ultimate blood sacrifice. The shedding of blood is no longer required of humans. All He wants us to do is accept Him. We don't have to but He loves us and wants us to.

YouBiblical anthropologists have proven that not only has the bible been changed in its wording through translation but also through personal changes, for effectiveness, by the various scribes over the life of its existence.

Response:And since when are they greater than God. Where is their notoriety. If they are credible, why isn't this information more readily availabe rather than people having to search for it to make a point. Salvation is not a mystery or complicated. All God wants us to know about Him is between Genesis and Revelation.

YouSo, what does god intend to do with those who believe it has not been changed and hold it as totally "intact" from its inception? Are those who don't realize it has been altered damned for extolling the altered versions, which is ALL versions but one?

ResponseAbsolutely. Those who believe it and accept a relationship with Him will have eternal life with Him in heaven. Why would anyone need to hunt for conflicting information.

1Thessalonians 5:20-21English Standard Version (ESV)20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.

1 John 4:1Testing the Spirits 1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Eph 4:14Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won't be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth.

Why look for other information? It ain't complicated. If you read the Bible and keep looking for other information, it means you don't believe it. I read material from many Christians authors. I no how to select authors that are grounded in the Word of God.

"YouBiblical anthropologists have proven that not only has the bible been changed in its wording through translation but also through personal changes, for effectiveness, by the various scribes over the life of its existence.Response:And since when are they greater than God. Where is their notoriety. If they are credible, why isn't this information more readily availabe rather than people having to search for it to make a point. Salvation is not a mystery or complicated. All God wants us to know about Him is between Genesis and Revelation."

I wouldn't say they are "greater" than god but they are the ones who found the various versions of some the oldest written "bibles" in existence. They are credible and the information is a few words and a click away. And don't preachers and ministers search out information in their bibles when preparing for a sermon? If they really knew the bible they wouldn't need to do that. Similarly, anthropologists don't know all there is and so they research and prepare their findings for dissemination to the world, just like ministers and preachers. And refusing to or simply not being inclined to research something doesn't make it untrue or heretical. It just means some effort has to be applied, which kind of puts me in mind of Christianity versus judaism. Judaism requires extensive effort on the part of its adherents where Christians only need be "nice" and believe in Jesus. Credibility is where you find it, Diane.

"YouSo, what does god intend to do with those who believe it has not been changed and hold it as totally "intact" from its inception? Are those who don't realize it has been altered damned for extolling the altered versions, which is ALL versions but one?

ResponseAbsolutely. Those who believe it and accept a relationship with Him will have eternal life with Him in heaven. Why would anyone need to hunt for conflicting information."

The "conflicting" if you will, information IS from god. Any one changing the word is doomed! My question was and is; what happens to those who don't know about the changes(although not knowing is no excuse) and continue to see the bible as unchanged? What happens to those people on judgement day? Anything? Nothing?

"Why look for other information? It ain't complicated. If you read the Bible and keep looking for other information, it means you don't believe it. I read material from many Christians authors. I no how to select authors that are grounded in the Word of God."

Looking for other information can help verify or refute things. Simply and blindly believing or following one course is tantamount to slave mentality. It doesn't make for informed decisions.

I wouldn't say they are "greater" than god but they are the ones who found the various versions of some the oldest written "bibles" in existence. They are credible and the information is a few words and a click away.

ResponseYou can't believe "everybody" who says they are the experts. CNN is running a special on Jesus. I suppose this is for the unbelievers. Believers have no need to look at a special made by unsaved people. Where are the credentials of the people you are talking about. Have Christian theologians given any credence to what they found.

You And don't preachers and ministers search out information in their bibles when preparing for a sermon? If they really knew the bible they wouldn't need to do that.

ResponseNot necessarily so. I taught music. When I prepared lesson plans, I researched sources to help me give a better delivery and impact the visual, auditory and kinesthetic learning modes of all people. That's why good pastors have outlines with points for people to take notes. Appropriate audio-visual equipment is used to facilitate the learning. Use of other sources help to reinforce the information delivered.

You Similarly, anthropologists don't know all there is and so they research and prepare their findings for dissemination to the world, just like ministers and preachers. And refusing to or simply not being inclined to research something doesn't make it untrue or heretical. It just means some effort has to be applied, which kind of puts me in mind of Christianity versus judaism. Judaism requires extensive effort on the part of its adherents where Christians only need be "nice" and believe in Jesus. Credibility is where you find it, Diane.

ResponseI can either choose to believe the Bible or chase down these different people that have things to say that contradicts the Bible. I serve a loving God who does not confuse.

1 Corinthians 14:33King James Version (KJV)33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

"WIDE is the gate of destruction, and broad that way leading thither; and many are they who enter through it. How narrow is the gate of life! how difficult that way leading thither! and how few are they who find it!" `Matt. 7:13,14`,

YouSo, what does god intend to do with those who believe it has not been changed and hold it as totally "intact" from its inception? Are those who don't realize it has been altered damned for extolling the altered versions, which is ALL versions but one?

Response (This is the answer)Acts 16:31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

Romans 10:9If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

ResponseAbsolutely. Those who believe it and accept a relationship with Him will have eternal life with Him in heaven. Why would anyone need to hunt for conflicting information."

YouThe "conflicting" if you will, information IS from god. Any one changing the word is doomed! My question was and is; what happens to those who don't know about the changes(although not knowing is no excuse) and continue to see the bible as unchanged? What happens to those people on judgement day? Anything? Nothing?

ResponseThere is "No ONE" that can prove a change. No ONE!!!

YouLooking for other information can help verify or refute things. Simply and blindly believing or following one course is tantamount to slave mentality. It doesn't make for informed decisions.

ResponseCan you show me how I am suffering? I'm free to believe and love God. What am I missing out on?

Well, besides the fact that the source of the bible being god can not be "proved" by anyone doesn't seem to disuade its believers, as I said before, translation issues aside, changes are been proven to have been made, believe it or not. The real question is what does god do with people who don't know that changes were made and who continue to believe the bible in spite of said changes?

"YouLooking for other information can help verify or refute things. Simply and blindly believing or following one course is tantamount to slave mentality. It doesn't make for informed decisions.

ResponseCan you show me how I am suffering? I'm free to believe and love God. What am I missing out on?"

No body is "free". That's a concept which is solely based on ones acceptance of their circumstances. And I never said you were suffering. In fact, I said that your personal relationship, as you described it, is the best way to go about any relationship with the god you believe in. What are you missing out on? Nothing, but only because you believe in the way you do. I just find it strange that god went from a jealous, hateful-kill you in a heartbeat, do as I say or else god(old testament judaic) to this all loving, it's okay just believe in Jesus and you'll go to heaven god of the new testament(pseudo-judaic).In fact, the malevolent old testament god doesn't even get a mention in the new testament. From a rational viewpoint, it seems that at some point god realized that the "beat that a**" approach had lost its efficacy and so changed the protocol. I guess he finally figured he could "catch more bees with honey than poop." If he can change his thoughts on that I would have to say that the age old belief of his "infallibility" are erroneous. All in all, people will believe what they will and nothing anyone can say will change that, at least not yet.

YouWell, besides the fact that the source of the bible being god can not be "proved" by anyone doesn't seem to disuade its believers, as I said before, translation issues aside, changes are been proven to have been made, believe it or not. The real question is what does god do with people who don't know that changes were made and who continue to believe the bible in spite of said changes?

ResponseGod is loving and does not wish that any should perish. He makes His plan clearly known. It is not a guessing game.

Probably, your thing is "There is no God!", OR maybe you are wondering how people can be crazy enough to believe in God OR maybe there is another reason you are asking. It doesn't matter. The Bible tells me I must always be ready, in and out of season, to tell about the hope that lies within me. Thank you for giving me the opportunity.---------------------------------------

"YouLooking for other information can help verify or refute things. Simply and blindly believing or following one course is tantamount to slave mentality. It doesn't make for informed decisions.No body is "free". That's a concept which is solely based on ones acceptance of their circumstances. And I never said you were suffering. In fact, I said that your personal relationship, as you described it, is the best way to go about any relationship with the god you believe in. What are you missing out on? Nothing, but only because you believe in the way you do. I just find it strange that god went from a jealous, hateful-kill you in a heartbeat, do as I say or else god(old testament judaic) to this all loving, it's okay just believe in Jesus and you'll go to heaven god of the new testament(pseudo-judaic).In fact, the malevolent old testament god doesn't even get a mention in the new testament. From a rational viewpoint, it seems that at some point god realized that the "beat that a**" approach had lost its efficacy and so changed the protocol. I guess he finally figured he could "catch more bees with honey than poop." If he can change his thoughts on that I would have to say that the age old belief of his "infallibility" are erroneous. All in all, people will believe what they will and nothing anyone can say will change that, at least not yet.

ResponseThe God of the OT is the God of the NT. He is absolutely mentioned all throughout the NT.

Hebrews 11 full chapter recounts OT faithful like Moses, Noah, etc.

Great Examples of Faith1Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. 2Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation.3By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.4It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith.5It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. 6And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.7It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith.8It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. 9And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. 10Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.11It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. 12And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them.13All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. 14Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. 15If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. 16But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.17It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God’s promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, 18even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” 19Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead.20It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau.21It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.22It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left.23It was by faith that Moses’ parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king’s command.24It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to share the oppression of God’s people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward. 27It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. 28It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons.29It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.30It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.31It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.32How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets. 33By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. 35Women received their loved ones back again from death.But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. 36Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. 37Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. 38They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.39All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. 40For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.

Translation, firstly, is a major issue that has corrupted the actual contents of the bible; the "red sea" for example, properly translated is the "reed sea", two entirely different things and places. So, the translation errors alone that have been, for whatever reason ignored, makes the entire thing suspect at best. Although I will say that jewish tradition required the exact duplicating of the tora, or old testament, by hand, word for word. I guess gods chosen didn't feel the need to add the new testament to their bible. So unless you can read and understand hebrew and have one of those 'hand duplicated' old testaments, you have been reading and having faith in an altered document. It may not have been purposeful adulteration but it's there none the less.

MeMany "educated" people make findings that people easily follow. The Sea of Reed you mention seems to be a shallow body of water near the Red Sea that possibly dried up. Easier for me to provide research than to try to answer.

ResearchWhen we look at the various passages of Scripture where the term yam suph is used, it becomes clear that it is indeed referring to the large body of water: “The waters were divided, and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left” (Exodus 14:21–22). The “wall of water” on each side of the Israelites certainly suggests depth. Later, “the sea went back to its place. . . . The water flowed back and covered the chariots and horsemen—the entire army of Pharaoh that had followed the Israelites into the sea. Not one of them survived” (verses 27–28). There can be no doubt about what Moses is communicating here. Red Sea or Reed Sea, it was deep enough to destroy the entire Egyptian army. All the credit for this miraculous event is given to the Lord (Exodus 15:3), and it is referenced often in Scripture as an example of God’s great power (Joshua 2:10; Nehemiah 9:9; Psalm 106:9–12; 136:13–14).

Exodus 14 clearly describes a supernatural event involving a deep body of water that Israel crossed on dry ground and that later drowned the Egyptians. Whether the Israelites called it the Red Sea or the Reed Sea, the only way to look at that chapter and see a shallow lake or marshy area is to have a preconceived bias against the miraculous. Exodus gives us a clear understanding that the body of water the Israelites crossed was large and deep. The Red Sea surely fits that description.

In support of “Red Sea” being the correct translation and the correct body of water is the Greek Septuagint (LXX) from 200 BC. This is the earliest translation of the Hebrew Bible known, and the words yam suph are consistently translated with the Greek words eruthros thalassa or “Red Sea” (see Acts 7:36; Hebrews 11:29). In Exodus 3:2 and 5, the translators of the LXX used hélos to refer to a marshy, reedy area. But when it came time to translate suph in the context of the exodus through the sea, they chose a different phrase (eruthros thalassa), which specifically means “Red Sea.” The translators of the LXX obviously understood Moses to be referring to the Red Sea, not some other body of water.

This refers to the apocrypha books. There is nothing in these books that provide extrabiblical insight or revelation. Nothing in these books matter. Of course the people who want to include them think so but they can't say that the Bible is wrong without inclusion.

Codex Sinaiticus;"Codex Sinaiticus is one of the most important books in the world. Handwritten well over 1600 years ago, the manuscript contains the Christian Bible in Greek, including the oldest complete copy of the New Testament. Its heavily corrected text is of outstanding importance for the history of the Bible and the manuscript – the oldest substantial book to survive Antiquity" – http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/No where in the codex is there mentioned the resurrection of jesus. I have, somewhere in my notes, an excerpt from the gospel of mark that shows there was no reference to jesus' resurrection but rather gives four simple words; "this is the end." The oldest and most complete christian bible ever found makes no mention of the resurrection but the newer "versions" do. I also have an excerpt that says when mary went to jesus' tomb an angel met her and told her to go tell, but she was so scared by the experience that she never told anyone! The phrase "forgive them father, they know not what they do" was never in any book of the bible or written by the author of that particular book. It was added later for effect. If these things are not alterations then what is?Hebrew is what certain occultists call a "barbarous" language. So, it's no wonder that much of the translation is wrong. Then again, what is christianity, really, other than an "altered" version of judaism? I would say that christianity is a simple way for non-jews to be jewish, at least in spirituality.

METhe apocrypha was not included in the Bible because it didn't fit. Different people wrote different books of the Bible. Since it was written by different people, it was accumulated and examined to determine if it was part of prophecy or inspiration although the books talked about living a good life.

I know this all sounds terribly biased, because it is, but in reality the good that comes from it is that since the bible has been altered on numerous occasions, and god hasn't wiped us all of the face of the earth for it, that he has, to some degree, accepted the fact that humanity itself has changed and therefore is okay with biblical alterations just so long as we all still follow the rules. That being said, perhaps all we really need are the rules themselves, No? Not the hellfire and brimstone punishment for failure to comply.

meMy pastor just finised a 40 day series on the joy of Christian living. His text: EphesiansEph. 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again, I say rejoice.

I assume people talk about the hellfire and brimstone because they don't understand that God is a loving God and wants us all to live throughout eternity in Him with heaven. They try to scare themselves, and others, into "doing the right thing."

The "right thing" is not hard at all. It is not following a bunch of laws and rules. None of us can successfully do that.

When you you love people, you don't want to hurt them. So...you won't steal from them or molest their children. When you love someone, you want to please that person. Ever have a crush on a girl and want to impress her? You learn things about her and try to please her.

God wants us to read His Word, spend time with Him, and do good things.

I would like to know, if you can tell me, why the jehova's witnesses are considered a cult while other, equally control oriented, religions are not? I'm sure if one were to dig deep enough they would find the catholic church at the base of that spurious information. The last time I checked a cult was defined as "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object(God)." Isn't that what all religions practice to some degree?

My responseJehovah’s witnesses are very strongly cultic in both doctrine and behaviour, thus fitting both categories of false doctrine and mind control.

What they will tell you:Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christians (although this varies – some JWs will not say this).

What they won’t tell you:They believe that all true Christian churches are of the devil.They believe Jesus is not God, but is the Archangel Michael – the first being created by God.They deny that God is a Trinity.They believe Jesus died on a stake, rather than a cross.They deny that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.They believe that ony 144,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses will go to heaven. The rest will live forever in a paradise on Earth, never meeting the person who died for them – Jesus Christ.They believe that salvation is impossible outside of the Watchtower.They are not allowed to question the Watchtower leadership or teaching.They claim you need to read the Watchtower’s magazines and other material in order to understand the Bible correctly. If you don’t read the Watchtower’s books, you will “fall into darkness” – what they call reverting to normal Christianity.They have falsely predicted the end of the world five times.They have just changed a major Watchtower prediction that the end of the world would come before the generation of Witnesses born before 1914 died.

JW's believe the Watchtower takes precedence over the Bible. Where there is a conflict, follow the Watchtower. For Christians, the Bible is the ultimate and final authority.

Well, I do believe that at one point in time christianity was called a cult. Look at it now! And I would say that referring to someones faith or religion as "cultic" is really a matter of relativity than fact,

"They believe that all true Christian churches are of the devil."

From what I have read, when Jesus was raised and eventually spoke with the desciples he explained to them that the "church" was within them, that hey had excepted Jesus' teachings so god was within them making the church anywhere they surmoned. That's one point I think most christians get confused, especially the jehovas.

"They deny that God is a Trinity."

The "trinity" belief was brought about by the catholic church, not god or Jesus. The catholic church did that alot over the life of their existence. I can't say that the trinity belief is wrong, it's just not something handed down by god.

"They believe Jesus is not God, but is the Archangel Michael"

I've often wondered about that myself. If Jesus was in heaven with god, along with Lucifer, how can he be god? If he IS god then that would mean, in a realistic sense, that there are two gods rather than one, no?

" If you don’t read the Watchtower’s books, you will “fall into darkness”"

That resembles, to a great degree, the "if you don't accept Jesus you fall into sin" thing. Not so damaging to the jehova way when looked at from this perspective.

"JW's believe the Watchtower takes precedence over the Bible."

If I were someone who believed everyone has the right to believe what they wish, and I am, I would say two things; That belief doesn't apply to non-witnesses therefore unless you ARE a witness it's not relevant, and secondly; If that is their belief who are we to tell them they are wrong? All religions do the same thing, they uphold their own tenets and belittle or denigrate that of others, no exceptions. Just because one has been around longer than others doesn't make it the end all of godly religions, it just means that it managed to be around a long time. Religion is dangerous and has done an excellent job at stunting the growth of human existence. With that I will say that I like what you said about your own personal relationship with god. I believe you said that it's not wholly dependent on religion, If I misunderstood you I apologize, but that's the way we should all be because if there truly is one GOD, categorizing how we approach, worship, believe etc. does more damage to the greater good than anything else. If it turns out that there is no god at all, well, it will be a valuable lesson learned.

Ivan....now here you go again!!! That's ok! I love to talk about it if you don't mind.

You wroteFrom what I have read, when Jesus was raised and eventually spoke with the desciples he explained to them that the "church" was within them,

Me: Absolutely not. This happens when people pass information along. What He did say is:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

and in His absenceJohn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever-- (The Holy Spirit is in the believer forever)

AND

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

This is why I question people's profession of Christianity. When indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we DO sin; HOWEVER, the Holy Spirit will convict us. We miserable when we sin. We need to confess our sin and get back in fellowship with the Lord.

You said that hey had excepted Jesus' teachings so god was within them making the church anywhere they surmoned.

MENOT true.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Romans 10:9-10English Standard Version (ESV)9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

**************************************You: That's one point I think most christians get confused, especially the jehovas.

Me: The point is that none of that is the point.

I enjoy responding if you want me to continue on other comments. If not, let me know.

Well, I do believe that at one point in time christianity was called a cult. Look at it now! And I would say that referring to someones faith or religion as "cultic" is really a matter of relativity than fact,

MeThere were definitely cults. There were no "Christian cults" because Christians are "followers of Christ." Until He had disciples, He had no followers.

Christian cults evolve from people take a small part of Christianity and developing their own "version." Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, JWs, Church of Religious Science, etc., are all cults because they deviate from what the Bible teaches about Jesus.

The "trinity" belief was brought about by the catholic church, not god or Jesus. The catholic church did that alot over the life of their existence. I can't say that the trinity belief is wrong, it's just not something handed down by god.

MeThe Catholic church was not the first to come up with it. The Bible tells us that there is only ONE God (in 3 distinct persons that you see reading the test. Impossible - NO! Because God is not like us. He is supernatural)

1. The FatherJohn 1:1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God.

2. The Son

John 1:1 Word Became Flesh1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus always existedThis is why Jesus is called “The Alpha and Omega I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending” (Revelation 1:8).

3. The Holy Spirit (His participation in creation mentioned 14 times)

The Holy Spirit In CreationMost Relevant Verses

Genesis 1:2 Verse Concepts The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Job 26:13 Verse Concepts "By His breath the heavens are cleared; His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent. Psalm 33:6 Verse Concepts By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host. Genesis 2:7 Verse Concepts Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Job 12:10 Verse Concepts In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind? Job 32:8 Verse Concepts "But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. Job 33:4 Verse Concepts "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Job 34:14-15

Your with the terrorists or your against the terrorists. From personally dealing with Bush and Trump that is why I am in South America away from that kind of destructive thinking .

I never allowed politics and Religion in my artwork for 40 years because I wanted to keep it all G rated. When someone comes along like Trump you got to say and do something for your own survival and for your love ones.

When he announced he was running for President. I sense that Hillary would win people's vote and did not doubt Trump could be selected. If he does most of the things he says he would do in his campaign. He will become the most dangerous man in human history.

He is acting quickly towards his aims without a conscious. Our hope is something or someone totally stops him. Who can ignore that.

The Republican response is the same Naa Na, Na Na naa. So immature. Still boys who have not grown up to this horrible reality that is happening right now.

Did they take pork off the menu at subway in Quebec. This is the first in Canada I think.

From Americans killing many millions in their Muslims countries. Muslims is the lowest group of race or Religion causing terroristism within living in America. They would be second from the bottom in terrorism if you included the inside Job of 9/11... false flag. From travelling most Muslims countries basically they are good people too, with lack of freedom due to too much of strict rules, that I could not live by. No reason to sent them home to bomb them again.

Muslim have refrain from revenge , almost Amish like. There is always a few who will go insane in any group or family. Trump is counting on it.

And it's apparent from recent reports that the young guy responsible for the rampage in Canada was not a "terrorist," merely a sadly deranged person who has, for whatever reason, got his outlook on life all mixed up. No excuse, admittedly, but it does allow use extra perspective and perhaps some loving concerns.

There are a lot of people who say they are Christians yet they don't act like they are Christians. Interesting you were performing in a club. Why were they there? Obviously getting drunk because I can't see a sober group waiting to beat you up.

Yes, alcohol is worst offender to violences. Lucky I know the art of not fighting. You do need to be somewhat Offensive to be funny. The beauty in comedy you can be the... be all and end all, in expressing yourself. Need to rewrite these kinds of jokes, to jump through more lasers beams.

How come I never get insulted, if it's true, I make adjustments and learn something. If it's a lie or worst BS, I mainly ignore it.

We have Christian comedians at church throughout the year. They tell jokes that are self deprecating, about their families, friends, oxymoron stuff, etc. They are extremely funny. The truth is often very funny because of the irony.

With respect Dianne, this does not work with me. It's us humans we are dealing with, not shifting the problem on to religious beliefs. The latter ultimately benefits no one. Learning to find our own solutions and putting them into practice will do much more good.

Yes, we are swiftly moving towards a cashless society with contactless cards, digital currencies and even RFID chips... but this is happening right at the heart of the United States. Does the word "Pentagon" mean anything to you? And the founding fathers being Freemasons/Illuminati? And all the symbolism that the US uses?

Actually, if you trace it back you find that the Declaration of Independence was a scam which traces back to Bavaria and the UK. I'm a UK citizen by the way.

These disclosures are coming from the US military (check out the Disclosure Project testimony and evidence). It seems to me that Russia are not the cause of the problem but are actually trying to prevent it.

One cannot just read Revelations to get the full context. End time prophecy was mentioned in Ezekiel. I'm not a theologian and can't discuss in detail. Ezekiel mentions Gog, Magog and Meshek.

I hope this helpsMagog is a land “in the far north,” from Israel’s point of view (Ezekiel 38:15; 39:2). Most Bible commentators interpret “Magog” as Russia—and, indeed, Russia is straight north of Israel, all the way up to the Arctic Circle. According to this view, “Rosh” is a reference to Russia, “Meshek” is either Moscow or the people north of the Black Sea (the area of southern Russia and Ukraine), and “Tubal,” which is always listed with Meshek in Scripture, is identified as a city in Siberia or an area in central Turkey.

Others see “Magog” as a general term used in Ezekiel’s day to identify barbarians living near the Black and Caspian Seas. Regardless of the exact locations of Magog, Tubal, and Meshek, there is no doubt that the general area includes portions of Russia and the former Soviet Union, and possibly some Arab countries.

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