Fujiwara FKM chef knife

I was wondering if anyone has an opinion - or has used - a Fujiwara FKM chef knife. I was almost set to buy a MAC Pro 240mm chef knife (along with a 12" Idahone ceramic rod & possibly a petty) and started hearing a few people recommending the Fuji in a petty. Then I became curious as to how their chef knife was. It would save me about $100 and I could use that towards sharpening stones in the future as I plan on learning to sharpen my own. I am on a tight budget and very new, having never used kitchen knives. Everything about the MAC sounded great to me (Out of the box edge, stiffness, quality, support, etc. etc.) but am now wondering whether or not I am going a little too overboard for a beginner who only cooks a few times a week for a small family at home. I usually buy the best I possibly can, knowing I will eventually get my monies worth, but I am worried $wise as I can also see more purchases in the near future, be it more knives, sharpening equipment, and whatnot. How soon would I be needing to buy sharpening equipment? Will I have time to "go big" and save for the other things? Will I be happy enough with the Fuji? I value your opinions and was looking for someone who knows about these knives. Thanks so much.

Saving money on the knife to buy stones (or a good cutting board) makes all kinds of sense.

The Mac will come relatively sharp out of the box. Surprisingly sharp, though it can get sharper. The Fujiwara won't.

Does this matter? You're going to have to learn to get them sharp anyway. But in terms of spreading out the purchases.... well, you'll want to get to sharpening soon anyway, but sooner than soon if you get a less sharp knife out of the box. (My guess the Fujiwara will be functional, so I don't want to exaggerate, but Mac is well-known for having a pretty good edge ootb). Another knife recommended as a first is the semi-stainless Kagayaki CarboNext. That is very good at price point, as well, but will need immediate attention sharpening and maybe even reprofiling (which is a subset of sharpening). IMO it's a great knife to learn to sharpen on, at least.

All that said -- I haven't used the Fujiwara, don't really know first hand at all; but it is recommended as a very good budget knife, pretty universally, on the knife forums. The Mac Professional series knives are across the board very good indeed. I'll leave deeper comparisons to those who know both, though.

The Fujiwara is an excellent entry-level to the high end. I think its only real competition is the Tojiro DP.

The MAC is an excellent high-end knife, better alloy, better made, better F&F, stiffer, better handle, better profile, and on and on. It is not the best knife in the world, nor is necessarily the best mass-produced, stainless, yo-gyutos in its price range. It's a very good knife for a lot of people.

In no way is the positive MAC comparison intended to slight Fujiwara or Tojiro. A great many people love theirs to death.

Whether the difference in price is more important than the difference in quality (good vs very good) depends on your priorities, values and budget. I can tell you that the MAC is NOT twice as good as the Fujiwara or Tojiro. But I can't tell you if you'll be happy with either of the less expensive knives at all, knowing the MAC is out there.

Sharpening stuff costs what it costs. If you've decided to learn freehand with bench stones by starting with two very good stones, a honing rod, and a way to flatten, you're looking at $120 ish.

That doesn't sound too terrible - could you possibly give me a starting point as to which bench stones, honing rod, and flattener to start looking at as I don't have any experience or input in this subject at all. Which are good or better than others.

My gut keeps telling me that the MAC is just the knife for me, but my brain (and wallet -- ha ha) keeps telling me to stop and think about this some more. A game that I can keep playing for a long time, I'm sure.

Just wasn't sure if the Fujiwara would need immediate attention with the stones - doesn't sound like the MAC would, although I'm not expecting to wait too too long to give them the attention they need.

I don't think those are your only options, but others in that class get more pricey. The thread is clear, but just to emphasize -- the medium grit stone, the 1,000 to 2,000 (or in the case of that thread, the 1,200 grit) is the main stone; don't go lower until you've developed confidence/competence at holding a steady angle with the knife. And I wouldn't go higher than the (medium-high) 4,000-6,000 grit until then either. The higher grits are more likely just to dull the knife you've sharpened on your medium-high grit stone, until then. And you might or might not want to go higher, anyway. (At some point the very high grit stones are things you talk to straight-razor guys about).

The honing rod -- look at the Idahone fine grit ceramic rod. If you get it, don't drop it. Unless you know your longest knife is 8" and likely to be that for a while, get the 12". It's only 3bucks more than the 10"; the rule of thumb is you want a rod that's at least 2" longer than your knife.

Flattening -- the expensive (and good) way is to get a DMT XXC (i.e., the Extra-extra-coarse) diamond stone. The marginally better but more expensive way is the get the equivalent Atoma stone. The less expensive way is to get some drywall screen (BDL has talked about that at some length, recently, on one of Luis' threads - here: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/67399/quick-question-on-stone-flattening ).

It sounds like your thinking is somewhat inline with my own when I was first looking into J knives, and that is just what would I be getting for the extra hundred, or hundreds spent on more expensive knives. I will admit up front I can be tough as a buyer and look for the most value often, but like most others can really enjoy a purchase of something exotic or high quality etc no matter the cost.

So how to tell exactly what you will be getting for the extra money spent though a great thing to know is really hard to figure out without actually owning or using both so you can make your own comparison. Sure some of the more experienced members can share their knowledge (and again thanks to all for doing so) but it still is a tough task at hand when your new to this type of product, and even more so if your new to cooking or knife skills etc

Figuring this out drove me nuts (and I am sure most those here helping me lol)

Another issue is what you will be comparing your next knife to, and what skills you have etc as this will play into just how satisfied you will be also.

I do fully agree with BDL on his recommendation of the FKM and DP series and that they are very likely two of the best entry level J knives (based on my experience with these brands, and previous german brands).

I have owned a Fujiwara FKM 240 Gyuto for about ten months now, and though I can not compare first hand to the MAC or any of the other more costly brands I can tell you that IMHO it is a pleasure to use, easy to sharpen, feels good in your hand (especially pinch grip), seems well balanced, can get very sharp with little effort and hold that sharpness for a good while (much sharper than any Henckels I have owned including those that retailed for much more $ and will hold that edge so much longer it is a joke).

Now that does not mean it is perfect and I am not sure anything ever is, but dollar for dollar it is going to be hard to beat.

The Tojiro DP is one of the others I have and also like very much. They are a bit different in design, material and feel than the FKM and the F&F were not as good though close. I think the biggest differences are the handles, the blade steel used, how they sharpen, and edge retention.

Since the DP uses a harder steel (vg10) it is a little tougher to sharpen, but also holds the edge a little longer. Though they get very sharp (maybe even a tad sharper than the FKM) they do not feel as nimble as the FKM does, but to be honest this is really close and splitting hairs, but there is a difference.

I think anyone new to this will be very happy with either of these, and it is a very inexpensive (less than any brand name German made, and not much more than clearance or seconds too) way to get started into the world of J knives, and even more importantly if your on a tight budget will leave plenty of cash for buying at least one stone if not more.

I almost failed to mention that picking your stones will be just as much fun and maybe even a bit more confusing than the knives your going to be sharpening on them. Though I would not recommend it for everyone I ended up being a bit too frugal and originally went with a single stone that would do the job, but was in between popular grits (a shapton 2k glass stone) and my set will be growing around it soon rather than with it. My original thoughts on a combo stone may also have not been great long term, but would have been better short term (king 1k 6k combo etc) since it would have had better coverage of grits.

It is just luck that the 2k has worked out with a little extra time when needed, and as an added plus has been great with my non kitchen knives as well. So if you have the funds avail for more than one you should be ok, and it is easy to add to later if you chose quality ones now, but if money is tight I do not see anything wrong with a combo or even just one glass stone if your shy for gouging into the stone etc. I am sure the others here with more experience with different stones can steer you in the right direction.

Back to the higher cost knife question.

Since I currently deciding on the next addition to my collection I can add a little more to this. When I first started I was totally about value and getting into the swing of this before spending any serious cash, but I was and still am insanely curious as to just what does one get for the extra money. Honestly I can not wait to be able to make a first hand comparison between these sub $100 knives (my Tojiro petty was under $30 at the time I got wow) and those costing so much more.

Wish I had this info for you now, but from what I have read in various reviews and informed replies it seems that as much as I expect to be impressed I should not expect to be as much as I was with the entry level compared to my previous Henckels Pro S. Just look at how BDL deals with the difference from the Mac above, and it seems as if the changes become less extreme, but obviously there are differences as he does produce a list of them every time lol

If you really want better or more in depth information I think you will need to let us know what your using now, what your experience is, and also budget as it gets more interesting once you get into the $150+ price range as there are so many more to compare.

From the reviews I have seen I would expect the mac to be better all around, and at an additional 100 usd over a similar fkm 240 gyuto I think it had better be.

The question here as in previous threads is 1) is it really as better as the price is higher 2) is this going to translate the same to a true newbie and present a superior value as well.

We have to be cautious as at over twice the price I am not sure these are comparable, and also is 170 usd the entry price to j knives or more like well placed reserved seats? Or for my car enthusiast friends you dont include a cady and hyundai in your comprison shopping.

Now all that said just by online info and reviews etc the Mac is now into a price point where there is some very stiff competition, and if we are to compare the mac @ 170 to the 70 FKM why not throw in some of those priced @ 100 or more over the Mac?

Since this is actually exactly where I am at now for my next purchase (most likely a suji petty or both depending on cost) I am very aware of many of the options (and only one has that ugly mac logo lol) and am sure there are many I am not knowing about.

Know I know we all like different styles, steels, and what ever, but there are some seriously nice if not all good knives from 100 to 250 range. Since the mac is knocking on the price door of some serious knives (masamoto, hatori, misono etc) I have in my mind at least thought of it as mid range as it is too good/pricey for entry level, and not up there with the more expensive or exotic either.

"love my country" but "fear my government" Something is just wrong with this

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

I understand what you are saying. I was not trying to "compare" the two against each other. I was trying to make up my mind as to what level I should start out at. I believe the best thing for me to do, given my situation, is to start off with Fujiwara or Tojiro, buy some sharpening equipment, and have fun learning.
Seeing as how I never used any kind of real kitchen knives (German or Japanese), I think I will be very happy. And after I get some time under my belt with these (hopefully improving on my cutting & sharpening skills), I will want to look at the many more options that are out there. Who knows, I may even understand a little more about all this by then.

Also I was not looking to really trying to compare as much as point out the differences so it would be less confusing, and sorry if it ended up being more so, but that seems to be how it ends up sometimes with this or at least from my direct experience. :)

And do not forget to keep everyone posted on your decisions, and what you find along the way. It is really interesting to see how others find these experiences etc.

"love my country" but "fear my government" Something is just wrong with this

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

Well, after weighing my options (again) - and hearing my little ones ask "Daddy, are you STILL looking at knives? Are you going to BUY one?" I have gone ahead and ordered the Fujiwara FKM 210mm gyuto & 120mm petty along with an Idahone ceramic rod. I feel I have made the right decision for myself at this time and that I am going to be very pleased. I also believe that this may only be the beginning, and I look forward to learning with these knives, so that I'll know more of what I'm looking for in the future. I am overwhelmed at the knowledge you guys have and I thank you all so much for sharing.

Now I turn my thoughts over to sharpening. I can't imagine choosing stones being any more fun or confusing than selecting a first knife! 
Is there anything special I need to know about sharpening these particular knives? I just hope that I can reach an acceptable level of sharpness. I watched Mark's videos on CKTG and I'm confident that I can, but I guess I really don't know what to expect until I get "hands on".

MJB, you will not need to sharpen it right away, Fujiwaras come quite sharp. Gives you ample time to practice sharpening with old knives. I have also a 210 mm Fujiwara, one of my most used knives. Very light, well balanced and agile.

A simple combinationstone like a King1000/6000 is very affordable and a very good choice. I think there's a 1000/4000 too, if so, even better choice.

The 1000 side is perfect for (re)sharpening, mostly occasional and depending on your use. The higher grits are more fit for frequent, even daily touch-up if you like. Also, high grits don't really sharpen a knife, they just polish or "refine" your edges.

Fujiwaras are known for tenacious burr formation when sharpening, simply metal residu shaved off in the sharpening process, forming on the opposite side of the blade that you're sharpening. You may want to learn how to feel burr; do NOT move the knife and gently slide fingertips from your free hand along the edge facing upward, palm of your hand almost parallel to the blade, and you will feel some roughness where burr still sits on the edge. Do NOT slide the knife along your fingers or you will cut yourself!

There are many ways to get rid of burr, but I find that simply dragging the edge gently through soft pinewood eleminates burr fast. I do this many times in the sharpening process.

A combi water stone is one of the least expensive sharpening solutions. There are some issues with combi stones though, and if you can afford two separate stones you'll be better off in the long run. We're looking at about $55 for a combi stone, and about $90 for a good 1K - 5K set.

King, the brand Chris mentioned, makes high value traditional "mud" binder stones; but they're not the only one. If you're already buying from CKTG, their 1K/6K is as good as a King. But no better nor any cheaper.

Whatever water stones you buy, you'll also need to flatten. Not only will you need to flatten, but you'll need to flatten your new stone and chamfer the edges before ever using it. Remember that, because it's IMPORTANT. I suggest buying a pack of coarse and/or medium grit drywall screen and using screen as your flattener. A lifetime supply is about $20. As your sophistication grows, you can switch to a diamond plate but they're very expensive and there's no hurry.

Chris is right about removing burrs; but he's confused -- or at least confusing -- as to how they form.

If the cross section of an "ideal" edge would look like a "V" then the cross section of a worn, dull edge would look like a "U." When you sharpen a knife on an abrasive stone you wear part of the blade away and thin it while you also lean on it and apply pressure. When it becomes thin enough, it bends, resulting in a cross-section which looks something like a "y"

The bent part is called the "burr" or "wire." Taken by itself -- rather than as part of the newly forming edge -- it typically presents something a "J" shaped cross-section, with the curved part of the "J" forming on the side that isn't being sharpened. If you think about it being formed by bending, you'd expect the burr to bend that way.

There are a lot of good ways to detect a burr by feeling for it. I've never tried Chris's method but if he says it works it works. The easiest, safest "noobie" method is to push a fingernail GENTLY up the face of the knife to the edge; if you've got a long enough fingernail it will catch in the hook of the burr. Another way is to push the pad of your thumb up the face and over the edge -- and feel the burr that way. If you don't feel it, do the same thing on the other side of the knife -- if one side feels much differently from another, there's a burr. You can also use a "normal" "thumb drag" (just sliding your thumb across the edge), and if one side of the edge feels more aggressive than the other, there's a burr (on the aggressive side).

Burr's are a VERY IMPORTANT part of sharpening. They tell you when to flip the knife over and start sharpening the other side; and their removal is also a way (the best way) to "reveal" a sharp, fresh-metal edge. In other words, when you break the tail off the "y" you're on your way to the ideal "V." I strongly urge you to use the "burr method" of sharpening as opposed to anything else. Wait til you're good at it, then start fooling around with other ways. The burr method is not only one of the best ways to sharpen, it's by far the best way to gain an understanding of what's going on.

WOW. I've read a bunch of your stuff BDL, and now speaking as the elementary school teacher that I am, that last piece was the best. After reading that I kinda just want to stop what I'm doing and sharpen a knife. Thank you.

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I have found that burrs are easier to feel and raise when using lower grit stones and also on softer steel, but these are also sometimes a bigger pain to deal with.

The burrs on my vg10 blades has proven a bit harder to raise and feel in comparison. Not that you can not feel the burr on a Japanese knife, but just that when your working with harder (better?) steels and using higher grit stones they are a little more difficult to feel.

I am guessing it is because the burr is smaller (it at least looks to be under magnification) so it just doesn't jump at you as much etc.

Well gonna make it two things to add lol

I have found that having something to magnify your edge can be helpful, and especially in the beginning as you can actually see what everyone is talking about. Just feeling it is OK too, but being able to compare the changes in my results through a jewelers loupe (and even a cheapo 4X mag glass) has been really helpful in seeing how the edge changes.

"love my country" but "fear my government" Something is just wrong with this

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

I really think the FKM is a good first knife and am glad I chose it as well.

That said I am working on deciding on my next purchase and it will be some combination of a longer petty a suji or and possibly a higher end gyuto. With a harder more refi
E
The first two are needed to fill in or that I don't have but need, and the gyuto is more about being the knife I use most and a desire to have am improvement.

Not sure what I will end up doing and also not sure if I would keel the FKM or sell it to hell offset the cost of the next one.
A big part of this for me is the learning and comparing so I would like to be able to hold onto it if I can since it is the only FKM I have,but will have to see.

I have also been meaning to start a thread and maybe do a review as sort of a follow up to my thread last year pf this same time to show this years newbies my experience with this very nice and affordable Japanese knife and also the Tojiro Knives I purchased.

I am still amazed at the performance vs price of these Knives and recommend them to anyone ln a budget.

@

"love my country" but "fear my government" Something is just wrong with this

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

Glad to know that you got yourself a new knife, I was asking this same questions almost one year ago and got the best feedback from the same fine gentlement that replied to your post (Wag, BDL, & Lenny ) based on their advice I got the mac and that kinda stretched my budget for the sharpening stones, I got the idahone rod, a stone holder and a very affordable combination stone 1000/6000 that was a real bargain, an Oishi http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=88043 I don't have tons of experience with other good quality stones, so, you can't take my words as if it were a gospel, but my Mac (And some Forshners, Dexters, Global, and some other affordable knives) take a great edge with that stone. Any knife that I sharpen with that stone ends up having a good edge that pass the 3 usual "sharpening tests" (The tomato, the piece of paper and the dreaded "shave your arm" test) with an A+

Now a couple of much more "professional" or better rated stones are on my way and in a near future I'll be able to make a comparison, but so far I'm very happy with the results that the cheap Oishi is giving me. It's only 31 bucks and it was a very good stone to learn.

I have what appears similar, an inexpensive 1000/4000 stone from JCK. It's not "the best" by any means, but surprisingly ok, and gives the correct impression that technique matters more than the stone. Anway... I have pricier stones in coarser and finer grits. I might want to replace the combination with something pricier in the 1000 - 2000 range. AND... I've sharpened some western (softer steel) knives with my inexpensive combination stone with near-magnificent results. So I'm thinking of giving that stone to a beloved sister, who has western knives (the very same ones I sharpened last week on this thing). But then... she'd need a flattener as well. And I don't have the bucks to buy her a DMT XXC (or give her mine).

All that said... what are you using to flatten the Oishi? I might also just keep my 1000/4000 combi and buy her that 1000/6000 Oishi, on the assumption that it'll be perfect for her knives. Or close enough. I'll have to convince her about flattening, one way or another, though. So I'm asking how you solved the flattening issue, when all is said and done. I don't remember where the drywall screen search landed, if indeed it landed at all.

I have what appears similar, an inexpensive 1000/4000 stone from JCK. It's not "the best" by any means, but surprisingly ok, and gives the correct impression that technique matters more than the stone. Anway... I have pricier stones in coarser and finer grits. I might want to replace the combination with something pricier in the 1000 - 2000 range. AND... I've sharpened some western (softer steel) knives with my inexpensive combination stone with near-magnificent results. So I'm thinking of giving that stone to a beloved sister, who has western knives (the very same ones I sharpened last week on this thing). But then... she'd need a flattener as well. And I don't have the bucks to buy her a DMT XXC (or give her mine).

All that said... what are you using to flatten the Oishi? I might also just keep my 1000/4000 combi and buy her that 1000/6000 Oishi, on the assumption that it'll be perfect for her knives. Or close enough. I'll have to convince her about flattening, one way or another, though. So I'm asking how you solved the flattening issue, when all is said and done. I don't remember where the drywall screen search landed, if indeed it landed at all.

Hi Wag!

Believe me I've procrastinated the quest for the drywall since my stock on sandpaper is still good for flattening at least a dozen more of stones. I'll take a trip to the Home depot to get the recomended drywall but so far I've seen that my 380 grit sandpaper is doing an OK job on the Oishi.

I think that flattening with the drywall must be much better, because the sandpaper is good just for one flattening sesion and it ends up softer than toilet papper and you have to dump it. The reason for using it is because here the drywall seems to be a bit more exotic than it is in the U.S. And being the lazy arse that I am, I couldn't resist the charms of a small hardware store that it's 2 blocks away from home were they don't even know what a drywall is but have hundreds of different sandpapers that you can buy for cents. (I spent like 4 USD and I got more than a dozen).

If you can't find the drywall, go with the sand paper, but for me, as soon as I get near to finishing my SP supply, I'll get the drywall for sure, just as BDL suggests.

Your Fuji was a great choice. The Mac is a better knife. You wont find many arguements with regard to that.

I'll offer some context for you. I'm a working proifessional chef. I carry Fujis in my kit on a daily basis. I have the petty, boning, 210 and 240 gyuto's.The gyuto's are typically loaner knives for cooks who have never used a J knife before. Most of them can't belive how sharp it gets. The petty and boning are everyday working tools.

I share this with you because most home cooks do as prep in a week of cooking as we do in a mildly busy shift in a busy kitchen. The fujis will be more than what your current skills allow. They are super easy to sharpen, arm hair shaving sharp infact, have a gentile profile that suits most cooks and probley are sharper than anything else you have. Edge retention is as much about good fundementals and learning proper knife skills, still even w/ poor skill ( not inplying you have them ) you'll experience a wonderful new world of sharp.Good technique makes a good knife better

If you've spent the time to explore the forums you most likely have a genuine curiosity. Thats how most of us start. Enjoy your new toy, 6 months from now you'll have a better idea of what you like and dislike. The Mac will still be there, or maybe a Masamoto, Konosuke or god forbid a Sabatier au Carbone.

Your Fuji was a great choice. The Mac is a better knife. You wont find many arguements with regard to that.

I'll offer some context for you. I'm a working proifessional chef. I carry Fujis in my kit on a daily basis. I have the petty, boning, 210 and 240 gyuto's.The gyuto's are typically loaner knives for cooks who have never used a J knife before. Most of them can't belive how sharp it gets. The petty and boning are everyday working tools.

I share this with you because most home cooks do as prep in a week of cooking as we do in a mildly busy shift in a busy kitchen. The fujis will be more than what your current skills allow. They are super easy to sharpen, arm hair shaving sharp infact, have a gentile profile that suits most cooks and probley are sharper than anything else you have. Edge retention is as much about good fundementals and learning proper knife skills, still even w/ poor skill ( not inplying you have them ) you'll experience a wonderful new world of sharp.Good technique makes a good knife better

If you've spent the time to explore the forums you most likely have a genuine curiosity. Thats how most of us start. Enjoy your new toy, 6 months from now you'll have a better idea of what you like and dislike. The Mac will still be there, or maybe a Masamoto, Konosuke or god forbid a Sabatier au Carbone.

Stay sharp my friend!

V Lou Tay

Great post!

Really helps to put things in a solid perspective etc

"love my country" but "fear my government" Something is just wrong with this

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

Have a look as well at the Fujiwara FKH carbon series. Very basic design -- which I love. F&F much better than I would expect at this price point. Steel isn't the finest grained carbon, but has some bite. I sharpen it up to 8k. Very reactive, and smelly, so you should apply a patina. From that moment, no more sulfure smell or taste transfer. Just a solid performer with a great geometry. Minus: the edge OOTB is unpredictable, between terrible and fairly usable. But I hardly care.