This is always a "slippery slope" kind of discussion where the list just keeps growing as each poster adds his/her favorites to the list.

To me, Appendix N was always more than "Gary's list of favorite books" but instead represented more of a Hall of Fame of the genre. Gary composed his list in the 1970's, which meant that many of the books had been around for fifty or more years and were still remembered. That makes it more than a "flavor of the month" list and more of a Pantheon of All-Time list.

So I would focus on works from the 1970's and 1980's, asking which books still are popular after 20-30 years. If they don't last that long, they aren't Appendix N worthy.

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." -- Gary Gygax"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson

Michael Morcock The Knight of Swords, The Queen of Swords, The King of Swords

I have no idea how C.A. Smith and Karl Edward Wagner got left out of Appendix N, but both would seem to be a clear oversight. The Earthsea Trilogy probably should be in there as well. As you noted, Moorcock is in there but his Corum books aren't specifically mentioned.

Both Neverwhere and Dune are (to me) classic works of fiction. I'm not sure they are "Appendix N" because they aren't really Swords & Sorcery, but they are impressive. Same with the Narnia books -- not at all the classic S&S feel but great books.

Steven Brust is amazing. I read his early books with a passion but after a while they are all starting to feel the same and I don't really keep up anymore. Jhereg could fit the Appendix N criteria.

Most of the other books on your list either I didn't like or haven't heard of before, which doesn't mean that they aren't good books but just that I wouldn't include them in a Hall of Fame book list.

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." -- Gary Gygax"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson

I'm not sure that I agree with Finarvyn about the Hall of Fame aspect of Appendix N. Many of the books on the list were also written in the early '70s and hardly represent books with staying power. (I'd hazard that a number of the books are only read because of Appendix N now.)

I like to think of the list as more of a list of influences on the beginnings of fantasy role-playing.

But I think the important distinction for adding new books to the list is in thinking of books that influence RPGs as opposed to books that were influenced by RPGs. The fantasy genre of novels changed a lot after D&D, and I'd guess that most people who read fantasy have also played an RPG. As the number of gamers as readers increase, novelists (presumably) have to meet the expectations of those readers. I'd guess that's why we see more individual heroes in the Appendix N novels and more "parties" of heroes in later fantasy fiction. (Of course, the influence of the Lord of the Rings in "party-based" fiction can't be overlooked. But I'd argue there's a significant difference in the feel of the party in LotR and in something like Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame.) Also, as fantasy has become a more mainstream genre, the "weirdness" of a lot of the Appendix N novels has disappeared from more recent fantasy novels, which are often more focused on character development, political intrigue, and explainable magic systems.

I wonder if rather than listing new books as additions to Appendix N, it would be more useful to categorize the traits of the books already in the Appendix, and then people can judge for themselves how their own fiction stands up. (I don't think that being a "non-Appendix N" novel necessarily makes a bad novel. Some of my favorite fantasy fiction is stuff I wouldn't consider Appendix N.)

Here's a couple of criteria that I think apply to most of what's in Appendix N:1) A central, single protagonist. (In novels with a group, there's a clear distinction between PC and NPC.)2) Magic that exists, but isn't explained.3) Strange lands (often with odd names and odder inhabitants)

Of course, folks with more familiarity with Appendix N may have slightly different lists.

- Song of Ice and Fire series -- I love the gritty low-magic nature of the world and the solid European medieval mindset - Malazan, Book of the Fallen series -- gritty world, almost inscrutable magic, and very original races. Steals a lot from Black Company, but who doesn't.

It seems like fantasy fiction has fallen into "my D&D campaign in story form" since the late '80s. Elves, dwarves, etc populating Tolkieny/Greyhawky worlds. Those two series, at least, took a different approach. Malazan clearly originated as rpg campaign stuff, but by DM's that took their game to different places and deeper worlds.

Both Neverwhere and Dune are (to me) classic works of fiction. I'm not sure they are "Appendix N" because they aren't really Swords & Sorcery, but they are impressive. Same with the Narnia books -- not at all the classic S&S feel but great books.

Well to be honest I wasn't making a true list for appendix N, I was really just putting out a list of books I have always liked. If I were to make a true list it would have to be much different.

Dune would be fine for appendix N, there are plenty of at least sci-fi-ish books on the original list. If Gygax can give an example in the DMG of transporting the party to Tschai from Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure, there would be nothing wrong with tearing it up with sand worms and fremen in my opinion. Lin Carter's Green Star series is pretty sci-fi as well, as is Hiero's Journey. The original appendix N was very eclectic, and GG was getting stuff from all over the place, including aspects of the game like displacer beasts and other stuff from flat-out sci-fi.

It would be neat if DCC has at tip of the hat to sci-fi and D&D with a module in the spirit of S3 or the side jaunts to the Warden from MA. All those original guys would probably be rolling their eyes about not getting any icky robots in a chain mail and unicorn game.

Of the old: a Wizard of Earthsea (and the sequels) by Ursula LeGuin.My favourite fantasy series ever! Not exactly very pulpy swords & such but I'll take an opputunity to say how good it is whenever it comes around

Of the new: The Blade Itself (and sequels) by Joe AbercrombieBrilliant. And unlike some modern series... He has a completed trilogy already done.I think I will look back fondly in 20-30 years on these books if I am still around!

_________________Playing since about 1980Latest games: DCC RPG of course!Quote I like: "I am on a computer therfore I am" (Alan Plater)

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." -- Gary Gygax"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson

I would not add CS Lewis to the list because they are contemporary with other books Gary did include but for some reason he did not include them.

How about modern Strange Fiction: China Mieville's Perdido Street Station, for example? Strange Fiction attempts to recall the works of Lovecraft with a modern twist. It is certainly a fitting setting for Appendix N adventuring.

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." -- Gary Gygax"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson

I recently read one his books (outside of the trilogy) - The Heroes. It was very good. Refreshing to read a semi-fantasy book that didn't require a multi-1000 page-book series to support it. Actually, it was about one battle in one town over three or four days. I would love to see authors develop worlds and then write standalone books within that world without the need to connect them all in one long multi-decade ordeal...

I recently read one his books (outside of the trilogy) - The Heroes. It was very good. Refreshing to read a semi-fantasy book that didn't require a multi-1000 page-book series to support it. Actually, it was about one battle in one town over three or four days. I would love to see authors develop worlds and then write standalone books within that world without the need to connect them all in one long multi-decade ordeal...

L. E. Modesitt Jr.'s Recluce series fits that bill (some of his other series are multi-volume books). At most 2 books will take place in the "same" time period spanning 2500+ years. But he is not App N at all. His books are all hero's journeys. And his world building is just color. Yes, if he passes through the same area in different time periods, the city names might have changed but none of it is essential to the hero's journey he happens to be telling at the time.

Clasrk Ashton Smith not being in Appendix N shocked me as well. If for nothing else he should be in for his Zothique series. It was recommended to me due to its sword & sorcery content. If you have never read it, go out and find it in a used bookstore somewhere. Well worth it.

Clasrk Ashton Smith not being in Appendix N shocked me as well. If for nothing else he should be in for his Zothique series. It was recommended to me due to its sword & sorcery content. If you have never read it, go out and find it in a used bookstore somewhere. Well worth it.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned John Norman's Gor series. All of those slave women and such! The Boris covers are a help too.

I suspect that the Gor books aren't mentioned much simply because they aren't PC enough and they cause a real divide in terms of whether they are considered to be legit S&S books or just cheap porn. I kind of wish that they would release "sanitized" versions where they could remove a lot of the objectionable material and leave the pulp fantasy stories.

I think that hidden in the dross is a bunch of fun stories in an interesting world. Maybe not Conan in quality, but certainly as good as some of the Gardner Fox stories, Brak the Barbarian, and other pulpy barbarian tales. There is a Priest-Kings story arc, one with the Kurii, and probably others that make for fun fiction. (It's been too long since I read them and I only read the first dozen or so books so I can't comment on the quality of the rest of the series.)

Also, Dave Arneson put several Gor references (tarns, red silk slaves, etc.) in his First Fantasy Campaign book that detailed the original Blackmoor. If that's not DCC or Appendix N worthy, I'm not sure what would qualify!

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." -- Gary Gygax"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson

I try, at all cost to avoid anything having to do with Gor. Been around a few Gorians- or whatever they call themselves. Not that the books suck.

That's the problem -- the Gorean sub-culture that surrounds the books. Many of the people who are part of this admit to having never actually read the books, and they give the whole setting a bad name.

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." -- Gary Gygax"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson

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