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I am still curious if the women in the group are indeed required to have long hair and go tanning - and if so, why?

I am so baffled I have to simply laugh.
There is NO MP requirement on dress or anything like you imply
Do you even know those women? did they live together? what was their background? perhaps they came to MP from some other tradition, perhasp they were sisters.

My simple point is that your conclusion based on that single sample set is pretty off.

Look, MP is discouraging in the way it doesn't help Me to find other chelas in my area. MP is discouraging in that it doesn't offer online resources for me to share and talk to others.

The idea that you and other's can come to a completely opposite conclusion about this aspect is simply amazing

The truth of the matter is that MP is individualistic, much more so then Christianity, islam, and many other religions.

Go to a satsang, see for yourself.

Oh, deepcynic - did you notice the bookstore reference. OMG people going into a public bookstore and buying MP books? Sounds contracdictory to your pontifications??

Ok, as if age was a signifier of wisdom - I'll be 53 in October. Does that make you the son and me the dad?

>>>I can assure you what I said is true.

Is that it? Thats the extent of your proof of such a critical aspect of judging a true master/teacher? Trust me!

Disappointing.

Oh and I can count a few healers, card readers and psychics as friends. Very close friends and people I love in fact. I also own and manage websites for light workers and other types. The point is I know well of the different thoughts on payments, donations, etc. We are not talking apples and oranges.

We might agree that if anyone looks at their practice as a 'cash cow', if their objective is the $, then its a problem. Like I said,. I don't hold stock in the idea that any $ passed is not spiritual, one has to try and ascertain intent and focus.

The rest of your questions just show your ignorance concerning MP
(ignorance = lack of knowledge)

Your fighting ideas that don't exist. MP not only allows but encourages make to question, everything. Question the guru, question the teaching, etc. I've spent 4 years doing exactly that. It is why I am here as well.

Sign over worldly possessions? Control who I marry? Proselytize?
Your credibility is pretty shot with statements like that.
Would you care to elaborate where you are getting such ignorant ideas about MP?

Like I said, take it or leave it. If you are, indeed, 53, you should know better by now anyways.

Your on your own pal, just do me a favor and see if I'm here when you wake up so I can tell you I told you so.

In an above post a Check list was offered above for a cult danger evaluation framework. I am not sure how 'official' this one is, but like all of the anti-cult evaluation
forms, there is no definitive answer.

Also, the answers are subjective, they are my experience, as honest as I can, but still subjective.

The tool used a 1= Low and 10 = High scale

1 Internal Control: Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.

1 - None
If I understand the point. There isn't all that much organization or structure for me to have 'rights' or be controlled in the first place.

Perhaps you can offer some more specific examples?

2 External Control: Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members’ external political and social behavior.

1 None at all.
It would be a bit silly for a teaching of 'dettachment' of being in the world but not of it, to get political and such.

3 Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.

4 Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.

2 Low
The teaching is to use the teachings as a 'Lab' , to follow a scientific method if you will, verify. Some amount of provisional faith, but not blind or absolute faith. Verify against your own experience. Trust but verify.

I've not found a path that was a open to questioning and investigation

How to other chela's react to questions? It varies, chelas are people, they have their own issues and behaviors. There is no set pattern I've observed

4 Not sure I grasp the question well enough. The Sant Shabd Yoga teachings offer a cosmology, metaphysics that is so broad, so large, and broad in perspective. Perspective adn context become important. There is no hostility toward those things above.

6 Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all members to bring in new ones.

2 Low.
Proselytizing is discouraged. Be the teaching, Walk the walk, people will be attracted to you if the teaching is true and they are open to it.

7 Front Groups: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially when connections are hidden.

11 Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

2 None. No control.
Of course the teachings of dettachment or that the more one focused and energy spent on these areas, versus living a spiritual life - those coudl be interpreted as censorship, but we are NEVER told what to do, what channels to watch, who to vote for, etc etc. Nor are there any 'punishments' for doing so.

Its just a teaching of watching your priorities.

12 Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.

1 None what so ever.
For me and other chelas they all report that most of their friends are not MP students.

I guess there is some, different people report different energies, but I think it depends on how much time you have invested. For people in the first few years, very little. An if the motive was money, revenue sources, there would be more effort.

Note that people are also dropped. If I don't send in my monthly report I will be dropped, if I get addicted to stuff, I'm dropped, people are not kept around just because they are revenue sources.

14 Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).

1 None

15 Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.

2 None - Some
Depends on ones view. There was 1 teaching, over 25 years, about a bird flu that seemed to drive some folks to make some rash decisions. But I wouldnt put this high up as a systemic/inherent teaching of paranoia.

16 Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

1 None
Gary jokes about himself often. Again, different chelas will react in different ways to jokes, they are individuals.

17 Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

2 None.
Look, personal responsibility IS THE TEACHING. Personal empowerment is the teaching.

18 Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group’s declared principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain.

1 None

Again that I've seen or observed. Of course some former and disenchanted folks will have their own views. This a pretty subjective category.

Then you have folks that say Gary smokes a joint and he teaches not to smoke pot. I am not aware of any teaching to not smoke pot, to not have a drink, etc. As I said earlier, the only teaching is about priorities, abuse, how much focus/energy is going into these other things.

Oh, deepcynic - did you notice the bookstore reference. OMG people going into a public bookstore and buying MP books? Sounds contracdictory to your pontifications??

My pontifications? I did not say they were not available in stores, I said the following?

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepcynic

I have been digging, literally at one point, and have uncovered some inside info...

The direction to 'discreetly dispose' of MP materials for instance. How can you explain that?

Then, you admitted that MasterPath instructs Chela's to do just that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by allan1015

>>>The direction to 'discreetly dispose' of MP materials for instance. How can you explain that?

I can explain that but it doesn't matter, I understand the rational behind it and support it. The fact that you don't get it and read only cynical motives is just a factor of your view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allan1015

****DeepCynic is Mistaken when he indicates that any of the above materials have anything other then standard copyright protection. There is no 'keep this secret' instruction as he alludes.

Secrecy???

The 6 page pamphlets do carry a request/warning not to share with others. The rational is that others could be karmicly affected if they gain this knowledge in the wrong order/way.

If your so prone you can see this little pamphlet as secrecy and an attempt to horde knowledge to make money. What I find a bit off is some people claiming the pamphlets are so short they are not worth much - not getting monies worth - and others claiming this idea that valuable stuff is kept secret to maintain cash flow. IMHO people just want to find fault

In any case there is no legal protection on these materials other then normal copyright law. If someone wants to rip the covers off and resell, just like any other book, they can. The protection is a spiritual issue and not a legal one.

So, I think that you are so used to spinning things your way that you cannot keep track of what you say.

Much like someone that relies on lies, they trip themselves up because they cannot keep track of the lies.

Originally Posted by allan1015
I am so baffled I have to simply laugh.
There is NO MP requirement on dress or anything like you imply
Do you even know those women? did they live together? what was their background? perhaps they came to MP from some other tradition, perhasp they were sisters.

My simple point is that your conclusion based on that single sample set is pretty off.

Look, MP is discouraging in the way it doesn't help Me to find other chelas in my area. MP is discouraging in that it doesn't offer online resources for me to share and talk to others.

The idea that you and other's can come to a completely opposite conclusion about this aspect is simply amazing

The truth of the matter is that MP is individualistic, much more so then Christianity, islam, and many other religions.

Go to a satsang, see for yourself.

Oh, deepcynic - did you notice the bookstore reference. OMG people going into a public bookstore and buying MP books? Sounds contracdictory to your pontifications??

First, let's be perfectly clear that there was never any "bookstore"...I assure you, none of these materials were ever available publicly. Evidently you didn't read my post except for my little jokes about the women tanning. Anyway, I worked in a PRINTING shop, NOT a bookstore. The tan women who came in were ordering printing/copying of Master Path materials, presumably for new and existing members ONLY. If they wanted just anyone to read their materials, surely they wouldn't have been so secretive and reluctant to place orders with anyone but their one trusted worker at the shop. The only reason I had access to their stuff is because I was one of the people who sometimes actually placed the "originals" on the machines for printing. Which would not have pleased them I suspect.

No, I never really chatted it up with any of the tan women and never asked about their living arrangements or if they were related. It wasn't always the same women. If they're sisters, then they're from a big family who doesn't resember each other except in tan and hair length. They would come in pairs or threes. Always tan, always long hair, and always no makeup. No big deal in itself, but it was their appearance ALONG with their odd behavior that made them stand out. Not just to me, but to my co-workers and to other customers. Comments, raised eyebrows, etc. - everyone noticed it. Then when you add to the equation that the books they wanted printed included pictures of some tan blonde dude calling himself "Sri Gary" and referenced him as "Son of God", etc. Um, yeah. It's pretty cultish.

Probably the reason they're not making it easy for you to fraternize with other Master Path-ers is because you're out of town and you're not an insider. They don't trust you yet. You're not "initiated" high enough yet! Probably the reason they don't have online resources for you is the same reason they were so concerned with privacy at the printing shop. Because there's more to the story than you know. Because there's something to hide. Because Gary and his most trusted followers know that outsiders would never understand. They're right. Most people wouldn't understand some guy proclaiming himself to be a prophet/son of God/guru/messenger and other such nonsense. Because it sounds like...a cult.

When you get initiated to the next level (which in itself should raise eyebrows), let's see how much more they reveal to you. And when you go to the "satsang", you should report back here about everyone's complexion so we have an update on the tanning issue. I'm curious!

You won't like them, they show that Gary is a greedy bastard and MP is his goose that lays the golden eggs, fertilized by all the naive chelas like you.

Deepcynic, why the private messages? Look, I don't care how many of your so called facts you want to put out, lay them all out. I'm not here to defend MP, if others are swayed by your bigoted and often hollow points - thats fine.

Though calling me naive is a bit off target, I find myself to be at least as well informed and intelligent as you are and immensely more honest and open

My pontifications? I did not say they were not available in stores, I said the following?

Then, you admitted that MasterPath instructs Chela's to do just that:

So, I think that you are so used to spinning things your way that you cannot keep track of what you say.

Much like someone that relies on lies, they trip themselves up because they cannot keep track of the lies.

tisk tisk, more attempt to spin your way.
lets examine the facts

You made the point that 'MP Materials' - had some attributes
Implying that ALL MP Materials or even Most of them had that attribute, at best sloppy and inaccurate.

I gave specifics that a limited and very specific set of materials had such attributes

Fact - My post was highly more accurate and hence less spin yours.

How is it that you think you can now imply I am a liar?

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