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Proactive Agro Management Skill

Following a debate I had in glff today, I had a question I'd like to propose to the hunter community.

The debate revolved around whether the hunter could use a proactive agro skill similar to that of ebbing ire or provoke. Currently, the hunter does have several agro management skills, however, many of these skills are more reactive in nature, and preventing the gain of agro in the first place tends to revolve around cutting dps in one form or another. A skill similar to provoke or ebbing ire would allow the hunter to use some of its agro generation to help the tank keep more of an agro lead over the dps while allowing the hunter to not have to artificially decrease his/her dps.

The main argument in glff was whether or not this was needed for the hunter, or if the hunter is currently well equipped in dealing with the problem of agro management. I personally feel that while I can manage my agro sufficiently, this revolves around cutting my own dps artificially instead of having a way to help the tank maintain an agro lead like a champ or burg can, and that by adding a proactive management skill, I could more effectively help myself and other dps manage agro in runs.

(A note, this discussion was revolving more around the land of 6 man pugs, where well geared hunters may run into tanks that aren't as adept at holding agro as tanks in raid situations.)
(Another note, tools such as endurance quick shot spam and the thread down legacies have been shown in the past to be ineffective or only barely effective, do you think the improvement of such tools would leave the hunter in a better position with agro management, and not needing a proactive agro management skill?)

[b]The thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.” - J.R.R. Tolkien[/b]

To everyone who doesn't play a Champ Ebbing Ire seems like a magical/mystery aggro management. Here's a fact, Champs pull aggro more often than Hunters. Why? Because Ebbing Ire isn't a "maintenance" skill, it's not part of a rotation due to its long &&& cd even when traited and legacied and that is why it especially sucks in pugs. To be honest pugs are called pugs for a reason, both dps and tanking classes have the skills and techniques to make sure mobs aren't running around smacking squishies. They only lack the sense to use them and adding a new skill won't change that. Having played both tank and dps classes I'd say it's the tanks fault 90% of the time for losing aggro so the best "proactive" thing you can do is hire a better tank.

PS: Content that can be pugged doesn't really need a tank. I mean we have LMs soloing 3 mans and champs main tanking everything outside of t2 raids in Fervour. I'm pretty sure hunters can survive 3 or 4 mobs on them with a half decent healer.

That tends to be how I treat it most of the time, pug's a pug, and I can survive most mobs I pull. Just had a bit of wishful thinking that it would be nice to have a way to help a tank out besides cut my dps.

[b]The thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.” - J.R.R. Tolkien[/b]

I have a problem with hunters who stand 40m away in an attempt to get out of combat from a single target kill to get their focus buff up again. All hunters who stay within range I ask to go burn hot and be as glass cannon as possible and I don't have a problem at all. Maybe if focus gave a perceived threat debuff (less than beneath of course)for the same duration of the critical buff it'd be fine.

I would greatly appreciate the developer for such skill. Since usually when you join pugs you won't always know if the tank is a good or bad one, when I pull aggro, it might be too late. Heck, even if I switch to Endurance and have 50% of the attacks composed of QS, I might still pull aggro. And it reduces my DPS.

Speaking of which:
- Tomes are really sub-par compared to other class items. RK chisels, Minstrel instruments, Warden carvings... and our lol-worthy tomes. How does a book relate to a person who hunts beasts for a living anyway?
- IDS doesn't seem to "greatly decrease threat".
- Endurance is like, to survive better (some weird +parry rating bonus), to reduce aggro and reduce power costs. I don't feel like surviving better, nor significantly reducing my aggro, nor significantly reducing my post costs. Doesn't need to give like -50% aggro/power cost, but it should at least let me feel the difference. (personally I'd prefer a rework on the stance, but one mustn't be too greedy)
- Our -threat legacies... surely I will pull aggro anyway with those legacies. Why bother (also applies to many of our other legacies)?

Stay in 20m-ish range from the tank in the mean time, they can leech aggro or something. Or just don't do that much DPS - best way to avoid aggro.

Stay in 20m-ish range from the tank in the mean time, they can leech aggro or something.

This right here. Yes you can use QS in endurance stance or distracting shot once in a while and even beneath notice if it really hits the fan. When the BfE farms first started, a hunter in my kin would always back up to the 40m max because he knew he was gonna pull aggro and wanted max time to react. After rolling a warden and tanking at end game I now realize that (for wards at least) the aggro leaches only have a range of 25m. Stay in that range and the tank can transfer threat off you. Outside in the 25-40m range, all the aggro you build remains yours.

Having played both tank and dps classes I'd say it's the tanks fault 90% of the time for losing aggro so the best "proactive" thing you can do is hire a better tank.

I would disagree with this. My husband and I both have level cap Guardians, and we're both decent players (not T2C players, but we know our classes pretty well). We both have decent gear and 2nd age weapons with max threat, we're both traited for max threat. But one subject that keeps coming up in the past few weeks is how hard we have to work to keep aggro. We know when to use our skills. Always using Whirling Retaliation when a parry response comes up because it's a threat leech. Always use Litany and Shield taunt for block response because they generate more threat than a shield skill. Use Engage to put you at the top of the threat list, etc. Anyway, we were talking about how we use nothing but aggro skills when playing our Guardians, and will STILL lose aggro to the Champions and Hunters with first age maxxed out weapons (which almost everyone has).

I admit it, if I ever got a first age weapon, it would go to my DPS character - not my tank, and not my healer.

My husband also has a level cap Warden, and he says it's so much easier to tank with them because he's not constantly spamming taunts and worried about losing aggro like he is with the Guard. He has started tanking exclusively with his Warden. His Guardian is collecting dust. I've started a Warden as well to see how tanking feels to me on it.

So back on topic: Yes, I believe all DPSers _and_ healers should have potent aggro-reducing skills. And I also believe that tanks in general should receive a threat boost. I play the game to have fun - not to stress.

If I'm the tank, I want to have threat. If I don't have threat - especially while working really hard for it, I feel sad .

If I'm the DPS, I want to see big numbers. If I've pulled aggro as a DPSer, that just means I'm that much more awesome .

Lol, that's one reason it's hard to find a tank.

I remember betaing Aion a few years back. I played whatever their tank class was, and my husband played the melee DPS class. Once I used my tanking skill, he could not pull aggro off me even though he was just dishing out the DPS. That was a fun time.

I would disagree with this. My husband and I both have level cap Guardians, and we're both decent players (not T2C players, but we know our classes pretty well). We both have decent gear and 2nd age weapons with max threat, we're both traited for max threat. But one subject that keeps coming up in the past few weeks is how hard we have to work to keep aggro. We know when to use our skills. Always using Whirling Retaliation when a parry response comes up because it's a threat leech. Always use Litany and Shield taunt for block response because they generate more threat than a shield skill. Use Engage to put you at the top of the threat list, etc. Anyway, we were talking about how we use nothing but aggro skills when playing our Guardians, and will STILL lose aggro to the Champions and Hunters with first age maxxed out weapons (which almost everyone has).

Guardians DO have to work much harder for aggro and still less than wardens. With good dps, even using guardians ward for 1 sec is enough to turn the aggro table if they are really going all out. At times engage doesnt even do anything . Theres more dps boosts than there are threat boosts.
Its generally harder to pull from wardens than guards.

Though I aggree that guards could use some threat updates, if anything, its mostly the fault of dps if they pull. Maybe hes a bad tank, then dont go all out. Dead dps =zero dps. But then,again is it really my fault if qs qs qs qs qs qs qs qs qs pulls from you? Outside of raids, and a few specific 6 mans, doesnt really even matter if you pull as a dps anymore..so what if you pull in sambrog or school? If I know I wont die, personally id have no problem boosting dps by several hundred, maybe more if it means finishing thev instance faster. Wether the tank likes that or not is a diff story. Besides, beneath notice only realy works after ive already pulled. You could be dead before you endurance drop. Endurance should give:

-damage threat
-perceived threat
-power cost

That way, just stance dancing helps. Not sure about others, but hunters art is not something I use often and place in my regular rotation. Wouldnt really miss it if it was changed to -aggro skill

The more you run with a certain tank the easier it is to manage aggro between you two. You will get a general idea how hard you can dps without pulling.(big devs suck :P )

Fellowship Hadacar: I now have a mental image of a little pea with a NE Patriot's logo painted on it.

I would disagree with this. My husband and I both have level cap Guardians, and we're both decent players (not T2C players, but we know our classes pretty well). We both have decent gear and 2nd age weapons with max threat, we're both traited for max threat. But one subject that keeps coming up in the past few weeks is how hard we have to work to keep aggro. We know when to use our skills. Always using Whirling Retaliation when a parry response comes up because it's a threat leech. Always use Litany and Shield taunt for block response because they generate more threat than a shield skill. Use Engage to put you at the top of the threat list, etc. Anyway, we were talking about how we use nothing but aggro skills when playing our Guardians, and will STILL lose aggro to the Champions and Hunters with first age maxxed out weapons (which almost everyone has).

I admit it, if I ever got a first age weapon, it would go to my DPS character - not my tank, and not my healer.

My husband also has a level cap Warden, and he says it's so much easier to tank with them because he's not constantly spamming taunts and worried about losing aggro like he is with the Guard. He has started tanking exclusively with his Warden. His Guardian is collecting dust. I've started a Warden as well to see how tanking feels to me on it.

So back on topic: Yes, I believe all DPSers _and_ healers should have potent aggro-reducing skills. And I also believe that tanks in general should receive a threat boost. I play the game to have fun - not to stress.

If I'm the tank, I want to have threat. If I don't have threat - especially while working really hard for it, I feel sad .

If I'm the DPS, I want to see big numbers. If I've pulled aggro as a DPSer, that just means I'm that much more awesome .

Lol, that's one reason it's hard to find a tank.

I remember betaing Aion a few years back. I played whatever their tank class was, and my husband played the melee DPS class. Once I used my tanking skill, he could not pull aggro off me even though he was just dishing out the DPS. That was a fun time.

Most guards make it hard for themselves by relying too much on block responses. I used to farm bfe t1 with a grd that could hold agro against 5-6k dps and anything above that would get engaged + challenged and the boss would be dead by then. He had capped crit/dev and I'd constantly see 3-5 litany stacks on the target generating stupid amounts of threat and not to mention he was doing 1-1.5k dps himself thanks to 10k shield smash devs. I've also run with wardens that can't hold agro against 2k dps. I'll stick to my previous statement, it's the tanks fault majority of the time for losing aggro. The only time I don't blame a tank is when there's some specific mechanic that messes with aggro and the dpsers ignore it.

Most guards make it hard for themselves by relying too much on block responses. I used to farm bfe t1 with a grd that could hold agro against 5-6k dps and anything above that would get engaged + challenged and the boss would be dead by then. He had capped crit/dev and I'd constantly see 3-5 litany stacks on the target generating stupid amounts of threat and not to mention he was doing 1-1.5k dps himself thanks to 10k shield smash devs. I've also run with wardens that can't hold agro against 2k dps. I'll stick to my previous statement, it's the tanks fault majority of the time for losing aggro. The only time I don't blame a tank is when there's some specific mechanic that messes with aggro and the dpsers ignore it.

Well, I will say this: There are many wardens that don't know what their aggro skills are. Obviously, they're not going to be able to keep aggro. My statement was assuming that the tanks (both guardians and wardens) know which skills to use when.

I started a crit/litany build a few months ago on my guard, but my morale was so low that people only grudgingly brought me along to tank, lol. I guess I could've spent a lot of time grinding out the best gear to increase my morale while maintaining my crit rating, but I don't like grinding out gear. I'm one of those players who's satisfied with the top end of "good enough" because I simply can't stand the endless grind for gear that's only marginally better. My virtues are mostly topped out. My mitigations are maxxed, etc. So I went back to a vitality build, but now I've got the aggro problems. Heck, maybe I'll revisit that build because my guard is just sitting anymore anyway.

I guess my point is that people like myself and my husband who know enough about the guardian to understand how the skills work, understand the different builds available, understand all the game mechanics shouldn't have to work so hard to maintain aggro against JohnnyDPS with a first age bow who goes 1-2-3-1-2-1...

How does a "casual" Guardian who doesn't take the time to learn all this stuff, or get the best gear, or build in a specific way, supposed to even have a chance at holding aggro against "casual" DPSers who don't understand the need to hold back?

Most guards make it hard for themselves by relying too much on block responses. I used to farm bfe t1 with a grd that could hold agro against 5-6k dps and anything above that would get engaged + challenged and the boss would be dead by then. He had capped crit/dev and I'd constantly see 3-5 litany stacks on the target generating stupid amounts of threat and not to mention he was doing 1-1.5k dps himself thanks to 10k shield smash devs. I've also run with wardens that can't hold agro against 2k dps. I'll stick to my previous statement, it's the tanks fault majority of the time for losing aggro. The only time I don't blame a tank is when there's some specific mechanic that messes with aggro and the dpsers ignore it.

Guards have to rely on block responses to generate threat. Shield Smash is part of the blocking chain. The best way for guards to hold aggro is to tell everyone to go all out dps from the beginning, big CDs, OB etc. The big CDs will be blown (or still active) and hunters/champs will be at 6-9k dps. After that their dps will slowly dwindle and the threat gain from engage + litanies currently on boss should keep the guard ahead for a fair while.

When I play hunter I notice a fair number of guards will challenge and hit engage right at the beginning with 8-10s left of challenge. That is very bad and makes pulling aggro from them a cake-walk. So many wardens and guards don't even try tanking in a pug it feels like.

Haven't read most of it but hunters aren't in need of extra aggro management. During SoA I teamed with a great guardian and it was a pain to get aggro off her even when I was fully dps-ing *do note, I've used Precision Stance for years!* So there's that. Before the +threat thingy was removed from Strenghts Stance (why on earth would they do that. you want to dish out more dps, then take the bloody fall for it).

To say it's the tank's fault is a good way to just dps away using all your possible skills and then complain when you take aggro. The key to playing a hunter isn't to maximize dps only. It is to maximize your dps whilst keeping your aggro low enough for tanks to keep their aggro on. A good playing tank is difficult to get aggro from but that also means you can dish out more dps then on a tank you're not familiar with to play.

I'd say it also a content problem. These days dps are revered because they make the runs go faster then they already do. During SoA you actually had to think before going in. Hunters had more roles (take adds of our precious mini's) but these days the role only consists in dps, dps, dps. So naturally, that goes with saying that most hunters don't watch to anything but dps.

If you need to take aggro from a member in your fellowship then dish out the pen-shots. If one isn't sufficient enough, the second will. Use books in order to lower your aggro + there's endurance stance Quick Shot (though I've noticed that once I dropped Endurance and went back to Precision Stance, I didn't lose any of the aggro because of the damage Quick Shot does). And IF you really have to get rid of aggro. Use Beneath Notice. It works long enough for a tank to regain his precious aggro and for you to switch stance and Quick Shot your aggro down.

How does a "casual" Guardian who doesn't take the time to learn all this stuff, or get the best gear, or build in a specific way, supposed to even have a chance at holding aggro against "casual" DPSers who don't understand the need to hold back?

I will say this, from my experience in a casual tank vs casual dpser scenario the tank has a very easy job, especially with guards. If the guard puts all his threat skills from 1-7 and hit them every time they're up they shouldn't have a problem. Ofc the level of dps a casual outputs has gone slightly higher since FAs are easier to get than SAs but that's only a small part of the equation. You need to be min maxed to the teeth to give tanks problems.

I will say this, from my experience in a casual tank vs casual dpser scenario the tank has a very easy job, especially with guards. If the guard puts all his threat skills from 1-7 and hit them every time they're up they shouldn't have a problem. Ofc the level of dps a casual outputs has gone slightly higher since FAs are easier to get than SAs but that's only a small part of the equation. You need to be min maxed to the teeth to give tanks problems.

Well said
These days a casual player could have more golds than the entire fellow combined.

Casual tank vs casual dps is good matchup
Hardcore tank vs hardcore dps is also even, though will have much higher chances of pulling imo.
Casual tank vs hardcore dps is bad
Hardcore tank vs casual dps shouldnt be a problem at all.
Did guards get threat boost equal to DPS boost?

Now when I say casual/hardcore im mainly talking about how well they play their class. THEN the gear. I know there are those who consider themselves casual that play at the top levels and those who call themselves raiders and are terrible.
Bad player+ great gear=bad player
Its just as easy for tanks to blame dps as it is for dps to blame tanks. Though there are more good dps than there are good tanks.

Fellowship Hadacar: I now have a mental image of a little pea with a NE Patriot's logo painted on it.

I will say this, from my experience in a casual tank vs casual dpser scenario the tank has a very easy job, especially with guards. If the guard puts all his threat skills from 1-7 and hit them every time they're up they shouldn't have a problem. Ofc the level of dps a casual outputs has gone slightly higher since FAs are easier to get than SAs but that's only a small part of the equation. You need to be min maxed to the teeth to give tanks problems.

Well said
These days a casual player could have more golds than the entire fellow combined.

Casual tank vs casual dps is good matchup
Hardcore tank vs hardcore dps is also even, though will have much higher chances of pulling imo.
Casual tank vs hardcore dps is bad
Hardcore tank vs casual dps shouldnt be a problem at all.
Did guards get threat boost equal to DPS boost?

Now when I say casual/hardcore im mainly talking about how well they play their class. THEN the gear. I know there are those who consider themselves casual that play at the top levels and those who call themselves raiders and are terrible.
Bad player+ great gear=bad player
Its just as easy for tanks to blame dps as it is for dps to blame tanks. Though there are more good dps than there are good tanks.

Fellowship Hadacar: I now have a mental image of a little pea with a NE Patriot's logo painted on it.