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Tuesday, 15 July 2008

Trouble in LCG?

From the Yahoo LCG Board:

Dana Glatz, an elder in the Montana area, left LCG and formed his own tiny group. That is sad. We met the Glatz's at the Feast in Malaysia years ago and are sorry that they have taken this step. Thus, unless he repents, he has apparently decided against being part of the major work to proclaim the gospel for his own priorities. I have heard that there will be something called the Associated Churches of God, but its website is not yet up (as of 11:55 a.m. PDT) it states: "Coming Soon..."

This follows reports of other recent ructions in Dallas, Texas and Chattanooga, Tennessee.

I am writing to inform you that Dana Glatz, an elder serving in the Helena, Montana congregation, has notified us that he no longer desires to be part of the Living Church of God. Mr. Glatz has some different ideas about how to understand and apply the instructions in Matthew 18 for dealing with interpersonal differences within the congregation. It is not clear at this time what Mr. Glatz’s plans are for the future. Several other couples may depart with him, but that also is not clear at this time. Mr. Glatz was asked to come to Charlotte recently to discuss issues related to resolving interpersonal differences within a congregation, however, no details of his doctrinal differences with the Church were mentioned at that time.

Dr. Fall, the Regional Pastor for the Western Region, and his wife were in Helena last Sabbath with 23 in attendance. The Fall’s have visited with members in the Helena area over the weekend—including the Glatz’s and several couples who appear to share their views. I have also been in contact with some of these individuals. Mr. Arnie Lallum, an elder in Great Falls, will work with Dr. Fall in serving the Helena and Great Falls congregations. Your prayers for all concerned will be appreciated.** This memo is not for public announcement in your congregation—it is merely to inform you of the situation so you can deal with questions or rumors that may circulate.

"Thus, unless he repents, he has apparently decided against being part of the major work to proclaim the gospel for his own priorities..."

Which is the same charge labeled against LCG by PCG/UCG....and they in tunr receive the same label from UCG, which in turn received the same label from ICg..which in turn...

It's amazing how an act (evangelizinf, preaching, teaching, collecting tithes) can one day be perfectly 'legal' in the eyes of certain people yet the next day be considered 'illegal' when it is performed away from the main group.

Associated Church of God? That name was already taken. In 1974 Ken Westby and George Kemnitz used this name Assoc Church of God) when they broke off from WCG. Actually, the dissidents ran out of COG names long ago. That became clear when GTA left the Church of God International and started the Intercontinental (or was it Intergalactic?) COG. All these names are strikingly similar to wrestling championship titles: World Champ, Intercontinental Champ, Global Champ, United (or Unification) Title, International Champ, etc. of the NWA, AWA, WWF, WWE, etc. --Publius

Well, here's Doug Winnail's official word on the matter -- but here he only discusses Glatz, not the Dallas or Chattanooga congregations.

I am writing to inform you that Dana Glatz, an elder serving in the Helena, Montana congregation, has notified us that he no longer desires to be part of the Living Church of God. Mr. Glatz has some different ideas about how to understand and apply the instructions in Matthew 18 for dealing with interpersonal differences within the congregation. It is not clear at this time what Mr. Glatz’s plans are for the future. Several other couples may depart with him, but that also is not clear at this time. Mr. Glatz was asked to come to Charlotte recently to discuss issues related to resolving interpersonal differences within a congregation, however, no details of his doctrinal differences with the Church were mentioned at that time.

Dr. Fall, the Regional Pastor for the Western Region, and his wife were in Helena last Sabbath with 23 in attendance. The Fall’s have visited with members in the Helena area over the weekend—including the Glatz’s and several couples who appear to share their views. I have also been in contact with some of these individuals. Mr. Arnie Lallum, an elder in Great Falls, will work with Dr. Fall in serving the Helena and Great Falls congregations. Your prayers for all concerned will be appreciated.

** This memo is not for public announcement in your congregation—it is merely to inform you of the situation so you can deal with questions or rumors that may circulate.

Only in the world of Armstrongism would the falling away of a few couples constitute a split in a church. Of course, in any other venue, a church made up of 24 couples would be considered not a much of church at all. In what other church would such as split merit memos being sent and members being ordered to headquarters for instructions on handling interpersonal problems within a congregation?

Oh, that’s right: each member represents 30% of that person’s income, which even at a paltry one or two or three member defection, even on SSA, Disability or flat out welfare, is quite a bit of money. Hence the hyperventilation. In real world terms, each member is equal to five or ten “regular” church attendees.

What a funny little high stakes game involving so few people Mr. Armstrong invented!

But we should be cautious. Not every defection constitutes the formation of an actual new church. (Although choosing a name and putting up a website are very bad signs.) I wonder how many people have simply blown off organized Armstrongism for meeting in someone’s house with people you like and fellowshipping without the tithing and politics or whatnot? My guess is a hefty 30%.

With so few people involved, none of the churches is ever too keen to whack a tithing member, even if they are obviously imbalanced or playing pull my finger during services or stalking a married woman. Just too much money at stake and no way to replace the member that the others may want gone. Of course, the backlash to this is people voting with their feet. My guess is that LCG is just hoping that those who left will come back, given that it has better trappings then any start up is likely to manifest.

I'd like to speak up for The Astro-Theological Church of God (ATCOG) since it predates the Universal Church of God by at least 100,000 years even though the Great Granddaddy of it and her siblings.

This is where the Sun of God runs around Galilee (hebrew-circuit) with his 12 friends of the zodiac to tell the same story as in the Gospels. :)

The Logo will either have:

Revelation 22:16: "I, Jesus,have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star."

Or

Malachi 4:2 "But for you who fear My name, the SUN of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; (rays) and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.

One problem with Revelation is that Lucifer, the light bringer is also called "O morning-star, son of the dawn!" (Isaiah 14-Hebrew Bible), which is the Planet Venus. So I don't know if Jesus and Lucifer take turns at this or not. Stay tuned.

You know, that Venus (the morning star of all history) tends to rise brilliantly before the sun, racing to the most high positon of noon. However he then gets thrown down to earth thinking it could ever do that and take the Sun's position and throne, (being an inner planet and all). Light bringer stories have early pre sunrise origins.

We'd have tee shirts that said "I saw Satan fall as lightening from Heaven too...Just this month"

We'd have great sermons. Great literature. Meet only on the the Solstices and Equinoxes, and the First Sunday of the month.

The Spring (Easter) Equinox would be most holy celebrating the Crucifixion of the Sun on the intersection of the Celestial Equator and Ecliptic, and it's taking away the sins and darkness of the winter.

We'd line our Mithriums with pictures from the Hubble.

The story would sound very familiar so I think we would grow stupendously and I could give sermons not quite like any sermons I have ever quite given before. (wink wink)

No tithing or giving of any kind but you do have to have good binoculars and be able to look up without a great deal of cervical neck pain.

We might sell oranges so we can build a small Observatory where now we only have a small "footprint" garden of where we hope it will go. I know the over-arching Sun will bless us if we offer quality oranges to the community.

When the Sun of God is born once again in the cycle Dec 25th, brough fourth by the constellation Virgo at her most high position, you have to give each other gifts of fruit and veggies and wassel a bit.

So remember me when LCG, PCG, RCG, WCG, DDT, PCP, MSG and LMNOP fall ansunder. I will be waiting in the "wings" with the Sun of Righteousness for healing.

Just how well has Roderick Meredith preaching the gospel in China? China actually has more Sabbath keepers than all the Armstrongist churches of God put together, but not through the efforts of Herbert Armstrong or his... followers. China is the next big thing.

Heck, we'd even settle for India which has 500 million English speaking people.

It does appear that success is not an option. The LCG under Roderick Meredith can just keep up the internal infighting and continue to lose members, without actually doing anything of any worth.

When Jesus Christ returns, I guess those in the LCG will have to tell him that they don't have the Talent he gave them. They spent it and don't have anything to show for it.

All Church disputes over timing of the equinox, when exactly does Sunday begin, Just what do you mean sundown?, Solstice behavior and dress, Alignments and Ecliptics, "I don't see where that looks like a "waterman", "fish", "lamb", "bull"scorpion" etc will be handled by Urim and Thummin.

This will be a simple yes, no system composed of 12 zodiacal crystals sewed evenly into a quality North Face vest.

When there is a dispute, the quesitoner will wear the vest and we will spin him round and round. If he falls on his face , it's a "no". If he lands Urim side up, it's a "yes" Problems solved.

We all agree to abide by the results of the spinning.

Each month symbolised by an animal... bull, fish, lamb, lion,crab, scorpion etc will be the potluck dish of the month. Months not animalized are free choice foods.

Our mascot will be a beast with four faces..The face of a Man (Aquarius Winter) A Bull (Taurus-Spring) a Lion (Leo-Summer) and and Eagle (Aquila-Fall)

Each will have six wings and our council of Elders will have 24 members , one for each hour of the day. These elders will circle the Throne of the Sun.

The Throne will be located in the North (Cassopiea) have a Sea of Glass that runs before it, (The Milky Way) and opposite the throne will be the Seven spirits of God (Seven stars in the Big Dipper)

Since the Throne never sets nor the Seven Spirits dip below the Horizon, it is eternal in the heavens.

Singles will, sadly and of course, have to bring watermelon to all star services..

I'm curious as to what his beef with how LCG was handling the Matt 18 take on interpersonal relationships. Were too many people running to the church leadership without trying to work things out first?

Byker Bob writes: “What if Armstrongism actually were, by some stretch of the imagination, factual, true, and God's way? How could any reasonable or even Spirit-led person be sure he/she got the right one?”

Yikes! That’s a helluva intellectual exercise. I suppose, like anything, you would have to use its own rules as a method of measurement. Armstrong’s own emphasis was on: increased numbers of baptisms equals increased numbers of co-workers equals increased income. (That is if I have not again flunked the gibberish comprehension test.) By this logic (pardon the term), the one true spearhead of God’s work today would have to show an increase in new baptisms, at the very least. This means either conversions—and not from other Armstrongist organizations, but rather from ‘the world’, or actual organic growth—co-workers making babies and bringing them up in the way they should go. Unfortunately, no COG can qualify under these terms, inasmuch as even those with an outreach program (television show at 3:00 AM that only I watch) has NOT touted any new baptisms in a coon’s age. Also, all organically converted Armstrongists are past baby making age and second generation retention, never a strong point in the church even at its height, is non existent.

Conversely, post AICF, Armstrong declared the WCG’s Elijah phase over. In short, he thought everyone who could be reached with the warning message had been reached. By this logic, the elect have already been selected. Assuming that the number of the elect is as stated in the one throw away verse where it is mentioned at all, that means that everyone who ever stuck with Armstrongism until the very end (if they have died) or is still adherent pretty much gets in. You don’t really need a church anymore, you just need to wait until the end—and I mean THE END. Just cool your heels until the First Resurrection and you will be fine. Pending your performance as an elect during the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth, you have made it into the God Family. Name your planet now. (No taking ‘Stinkyland’. That’s MINE!)

On the other hand, most COGs are in denial that the Elijah phase is over. It kinda shoots their cause of action if it is, after all. This leaves us with numbers once again, since Armstrong gives no real qualitative designations other than ‘fringer’ and ‘co-worker’. We can safely assume that all of the fringers are gone by now, so that leaves us with a uniform set: co-workers. In Elijah mode, the equation seems to be Number of Co-Workers plus Number of People Contacted Yearly By Outreach plus Net Booty. The COG with the highest number is therefore the spearhead of God. In truth, I think in Mr. Armstrong’s mind the Net Booty number may have been weighted considerably higher.

Anonymous said, “Actually, the dissidents ran out of COG names long ago.”

MY COMMENT – Earlier in the year, I listed a number of good unused COG names available for the splinters of the splinters to use. Realizing an emerging market was in the making, I seized the business opportunity of trade marking them. They are now available for license to any dumb sheep group that wants to pay me a monthly royalty as a percentage of their multiple tithes, offerings, holy day offerings, special offerings, and yes, lets not for get the building fund.

My registered Church names available for use at a royalty price include:

• Jonah’s Whale and Wailing Members Church of God • I gave my life savings to Herbert Armstrong Church of God• Polygamist Church of God• GTA Church Jet Stewardess Church of God• The Wonderful World of Yesterday Church of God• 60 Minutes Church of God, Stanley Radar• Church of God, No Make-up or New Years Party Hats Allowed• Goliath Church of God for the Very Tall in Spirit• Adam and Eve Church of God (Seventh Day Nudist)• Go water the house of God Church of God (original Waterhouse) • I answered the Clarion Call and gave my ass(ets) to Dave Pack Church of God

Please check the AW archives from earlier this year for the full available list. I only accept cashiers checks and/or certified funds for your monthly license royalty payments.

What always stuns me about these "interpersonal differences" so characteristic of ALL the COG splinter groups is the irony that their hero (HWA) always preached the way of cooperation as opposed to competition. I mean really, whatever happened to Jesus’ saying in John 13:35 - "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

I know of few church organizations in all the world who on such a regular and predictable basis splinter into splinters of splinters repeatedly because they simply refuse to get along with each other. Most separate COG organizations seem unable to get along with other COG groups (who believe virtually the exact same set of major doctrines). Individuals within the same groups refuse to get along with one another. This occurs so frequently within the delusional realms of COG-land that they have to coin politically-correct terms every now and then to describe the process - remember the phrase “irreconcilable philosophical differences” from the early days of the UCG?

Amazing, considering the fact that they all trace their roots back to the same mother organization and presumably believe the same things - although "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" doesn't seem to rate very high on their list of priorities.

Perhaps the LCG critic would like to point us to an authentic group that is preaching the Gospel!

Apostasy is affecting every Christian group (but we only think in terms of WCG).

For instance, Vatican II in 1962 set the Roman Catholic church to disregard centuries of authentic teachings in favour of ecumenicalism. This would later cause Pope John Paul II to regard snake worshippers as authentic brothers on a spiritual journey.For more information go to these good Catholics speaking out against today's apostaste Catholics (www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com)

The Church of England is now accepting women priests, moving ever closer to accepting gay bishops. As the article: A Rehabilitation of Eve: the British Christian Women’s Movement, shows there are many people influences the church to be liberal.

Now, pray tell will the one true church now stand up! Apostasy is everywhere, you are safer not going to church!

Hey Dennis, are you aware that there is a cathedral called St. Denis? You could appropriate it as your headquarters church as I understand the French don't use it so much these days.

BTW, I saw a program on the Discovery (?) channel on the constellations - did you know there were 13 signs of the zodiac orignally? What's up with that? Does this "secret" information blow a major hole in your theology?

Man, these half baked play churches get their panties in a twist if I have a cigar, but they can't even keep their members together.

"did you know there were 13 signs of the zodiac orignally? What's up with that?"

There can probably be more than that but 12 is the settled number and those that fit the stories that have been made up since human's looked up. There is a good book called Star Lore that covers lots of this as well.

No one today is their "sign" anymore. It's 2000 years off. April or Easter, is no longer Aries as it was 2190 ish years ago due to the progression of the equinoxes. Now those born in the former Aries are Pices etc..

The Age of the Lamb (Aries) ended with the Death of the Lamb 2000 years ago on the "cross" That may be why the Lamb was with us , "even unto the end of the age."

The Age of Taurus ended with the slaying of the Bull around 2000 BC Moses put an end to Calf worship in the Golden Calf incident in the OT. Abraham "found" a lamb to sacrfice at the start of the Age of Aries which also ended the age with Jesus being the Lamb of God etc.

The Church adopted the "fishers of men" theme and entered Pices 0-present using the fish to symbolize the church. That's ending now which may be indicative of why the church and religion seems to be in decline not having the authority it once did.

We move into the Age of Aquarius or the Waterman next (few hundred years actually but 2012 seems to be what many eroneously think is the beginniing of it) and I predict that the fluid of choice spiritually and in upcoming religious themes will change from blood to water. Blood today has become a symbol of dis-ease and such and water has become an issue on the planet.

Mithraic priests used to wash the people in the blood of the bull. Christian priests in the blood of the lamb. And I expect someday some priesthood will was people in the good old sacred water.

(We have been convinced, after all, that for a buck we can have a bottle of pure water where we could fill it ourselves just as well a thousand times for the same buck Somewhere someone said "Hey, lets just sell em th water for the same price and skip the ingredients." :)

BTW...it's not my religion or theology. I am just noticing and interested in this alternative source of, which makes sense to me, of the common themes found in religious stories and god-men whether they be Eqyptian, Persian, or Christian.

MY COMMENT - A great name selection Russell. I am sorry I didn't think of it myself. I'll tell you what - I'll trade you for any of the COG names on my list - with the exception of Adam and Eve Church of God (Seventh Day Nudists).

It appears I have a bidding war going on for the use of that name between two dumb sheep Nudist groups wanting to shed themselves for the right to use that COG name.

I see many who gloat at what's simply fulfilled prophecy (apostasy being alive and well).

I hope none of you who write here are "sitting in the seat of the scornful" (Psalm 1:1), but that you are mending your own lives by what you see going on all around you.

I myself have learned to really come to know God and Christ much, much better, by "not putting my trust in man" but God; and believe me Mr. Armstrong was right: not many "got it." Not many even understood what the real God of the Bible, the true Christ, and the "Elijah to come" were all about.

The more I see, the more convinced I am that the end is near, and believe me, if Mr. Armstrong was right (and he was) we shall soon see the demise of the U.S. and the appearance of the two witnesses.

How prepared are we to meet our destiny? Do you think it'll be as "funny" as some of the things some of you write here?

Anonymous said: "I see many who gloat at what's simply fulfilled prophecy (apostasy being alive and well).

I hope none of you who write here are "sitting in the seat of the scornful" (Psalm 1:1), but that you are mending your own lives by what you see going on all around you.

I myself have learned to really come to know God and Christ much, much better, by "not putting my trust in man" but God; and believe me Mr. Armstrong was right: not many "got it." Not many even understood what the real God of the Bible, the true Christ, and the "Elijah to come" were all about.

The more I see, the more convinced I am that the end is near, and believe me, if Mr. Armstrong was right (and he was) we shall soon see the demise of the U.S. and the appearance of the two witnesses.

How prepared are we to meet our destiny? Do you think it'll be as "funny" as some of the things some of you write here?

In response to the anonymous comment, "Let me guess: He had a problem with authority":

That's exactly what all the corporate ministers (and all their brown-nosed cheerleaders) would say. However, my own family has faced a situation in which an insecure, power hungry minister has disfellowshipped one of my family members out because this PLEBIAN dared to challenge "a minister of God,"--aka, try to discuss a difference in opinion over scriptures. Matthew 18 was blatantly disregarded in the process, and the recent UCG study paper on "Reconciliation and Matthew 18" (which is agenda-driven heresy) just made it worse. I know that we like to think that ministers are just trying to do God's will (and some sincerely are)...but there are some bad apples out there who are more focused on the corporation and its doctrines than on the word of God. I just think one ought to be careful before assuming that all people who leave a large, corporate church are doing so because they have a problem with authority. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a problem with BAD authority, if that's the case, and one ought to leave a church if the ministers begin to teach things based on personal agendas instead (rather than trembling at the word of God). I have no idea what the specifics of the LCG Helena group are, but I felt I ought to come to this stranger's defense since I know from personal experience that persecution often goes the opposite way that one might assume.

In response to the anonymous comment, "Let me guess: He had a problem with authority":

That's exactly what all the corporate ministers (and all their brown-nosed cheerleaders) would say. However, my own family has faced a situation in which an insecure, power hungry minister has disfellowshipped one of my family members out because this PLEBIAN dared to challenge "a minister of God,"--aka, try to discuss a difference in opinion over scriptures. Matthew 18 was blatantly disregarded in the process, and the recent UCG study paper on "Reconciliation and Matthew 18" (which is agenda-driven heresy) just made it worse. I know that we like to think that ministers are just trying to do God's will (and some sincerely are)...but there are some bad apples out there who are more focused on the corporation and its doctrines than on the word of God. I just think one ought to be careful before assuming that all people who leave a large, corporate church are doing so because they have a problem with authority. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a problem with BAD authority, if that's the case, and one ought to leave a church if the ministers begin to teach things based on personal agendas instead (rather than trembling at the word of God). I have no idea what the specifics of the LCG Helena group are, but I felt I ought to come to this stranger's defense since I know from personal experience that persecution often goes the opposite way that one might assume.

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