The Governing Body has explicitly told it’s followers not visit or watch anything but what’s on JW.org

To date, the videos covering my judicial tribunal before three elders have been viewed nearly 70,000 times. The amount of minutes viewed is over 600,000 minutes, which is more than 10,000 hours of watch time. A huge number of comments have been received via YouTube comments and messages, email, and other methods. These have been overwhelmingly positive and continue to trickle in nearly every day. However the Watchtower defenders or “JW apologists” commenting on my YouTube channel are on the rise. They are doing this in direct disobedience to their leaders. (See The Watchtower of July 15, 2011 page 16) The Governing Body has explicitly told its followers not to visit or watch anything but what’s on JW.org the official website of Jehovah’s Witnesses, yet these rogue JWs continue to post.
This message from the 2011 Watchtower is being strongly reiterated in the current District Conventions being held throughout North America and other parts of the world right now. There is a symposium with a talk about “Human Apostates” that is very slanderous and defamatory and has the ex-JW blogosphere up in arms over it.

The fact that loyal JWs are going against this advice is actually quite encouraging to me, as it shows that people are thinking for themselves more and more, even if they are operating from a position of ignorance on some points.
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Here’s a video I made on this phenomenon back in February:

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Some of these rogue Jehovah’s Witnesses that are trying to defend “The Truth” are sincere. Unfortunately many of them are also bullheaded and arrogant in the way that they try and make their case. I wrote about this once before in February of 2013 (See article, “JW Apologists Keep Commenting”) but thought it was worth revisiting. There seems to be some commonalities with these JW militants that I’ve gathered:
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.1. They are strong in their opinions and the “rightness” of their comments, which reflects the JW culture’s black and white thought process.

2. Despite many of them knowing they are bending and breaking the rules as set forth in Watchtower teachings about “not commenting on apostate websites or blogs” they continue to do it anyway.

3. They generally resort to name-calling and ad hominem attacks reminiscent of the Watchtower and JW.org. This can be seen in its full effect in the excellent video here by my friend Arp7601.
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.When I point out to them that their own leaders have told them they should not be on my YouTube channel, they almost without exception dodge the point or ignore it. I feel this is because it hits a nerve and they veer away from that, experiencing a small dose of cognitive dissonance in the process. Over time this may bear fruit and they may wake up to TTATT. At any rate, here are some interesting snippets made recently by these fine, loving, considerate, JW people:
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This one says God will smite my daughter (And me too I suppose) because I have chosen to speak out and make these videos. I thought God was loving and just, and did not punish people for the sins of others?

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A more polite but determined apologist hard at work regurgitating what he’s been told by the GB…

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This one left a number of angry comments, but admits he didn’t actually watch the video, so he is absolved from guilt I suppose…

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This brother did research and has no problem with the WT being UN members for 10 years, because “Jehovah has never left him”. He too asserts I am blood guilty, which I suppose means he has judged me as worthy to die at Armageddon…

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“The WT doesn’t give orders”?? …I KNOW he has never been an elder lol…and besides, JWs preach so that proves lots of stuff, right?

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This sis wants me to prove where the Bible says birthdays are okay. I replied that she needs to prove to me where it says they are NOT ok…

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This fellow is quite convinced that I am gay and need to come out of the closet…based on his viewing of my “cringe-worthy” videos… I think he is watching them TOO much! ;)

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Brother Chris is using crushing logic on me, the “because I said so” defense. Oh and he likes the elders that performed my spiritual execution…well actually so do I- they are nice guys, just misled.

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Apparently Satan has “blinded my face with pride” according to this fellow. He then follows up by saying that my life will be miserable in a few years for leaving Jehovah. He doesn’t realize that we are leaving the WT, not God. And how happy is he? Is he too on medication like so many of the others at the Hall?

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Apparently he thinks I brought out some valid points, but still labels me an apostate and an original rebel, aka Satan. How did Jesus say we should behave towards those that are our “enemies”? Like this?

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This one is short and sweet. He pities me. (Like Jesus pitied the crowds?) He then paraphrases the words of Dr. Evil and says I will “soon pay the price for my insolence”, and that I am led by Demons. But he thoughtfully says goodbye before leaving…and later comes back and comments again!

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So what shall we do about these Witnesses that feel obliged to try and push back? I welcome them, as long as they can be civil. When we can sit down and start having a thoughtful dialogue, everyone wins. And at any rate, they provide some well-needed comic relief!

“Come Back! Come Back!– We won’t even talk to you for a year, and we’ll never truly trust you again, even after you’re reinstated– but please, Come Back! Come Back!”

I would like to encourage all of your detractors, friend JJ, to read their bibles daily. That’s what woke me up. The study program for the WT, service school, and book study takes up to 4-6 hours a week, though, so getting some actual bible time in isn’t always easy. It can even be exhausting after finally getting through all the dry starch provided by the Org.

THANK YOU JJ. You brought out so many good points. Great article.
I truly believe their is hope for our “JW apologists”. We just need to be patient and loving with them and yes we do need some much needed comic relief. I think we just have to try to keep our heads cool and try to find the humor in some of the JW comments.

The JW wouldn’t last in a 12 step meeting, step 4 would trip them up major! The 12 steps for me have really made it clear what is spirituality, and what is religion, and also exposes the twisted mind bending that is actually a type of addiction, the drug of religion , which causes a type of drunkenness. Seeing the WTBTS through the lens of any 12 step program, really helps me understand the powerlessness of the drug of religion. By the time anyone applies the 4th step, one has no time to inventory others, rather each one would then really see the reality of what they belive and free themselves of lies instead of demonizing others who want to know the truth about the truth.. Great article by the way, thank you. And I agree it does show that people are guestioning their beliefs, their insecurity comes out as judging and name calling. It is a primitive start of seeing truth about their beliefs.

Hey Eric! Thanks again. I just want everyone to know there will be an update tothe theocratic ministry school in Jan ’14. Now the “number 3” talks (talks based on a scripture or point) will be given from the insight book. This means the WT is clamping down on individual thought and possibilities of researching outside the birds narrow walls. Thought control will be at it’s peak as they hide it under the guise of making it easier for publishers to do talks. Further, tge sisters’ talks will be straight from the reasoning book ( no big change there). They are attempting to weed out any possibilities of apostasy. Funny how they say we shouldn’t have individual thought and yet they ask us not to lean upon our own understanding but the understanding of other imperfect humans…..not God or what the Bible says. Hypocrisy at it’s finest my friends. Anyways I heard it from an elder who heard it at the branch committee meeting. Makes me think of thomas Jeffersons quote: “all tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to keep silent”.

All I can say is this: I can’t wait to see the end of watchtower organisation. Hopefully it will come during my lifetime. I don’t see why people get attracted to such a dangerous, time consuming and boring organisation like that. Their meetings are senseless and lengthy. And absolutely no guidance from God nor the Holly spirit! Everything is well scripted from their father the GB.

Anyone ever notice JWs all have the same scripted answers. I see how some people answer questions and my JW family members answer the same way. Are they taught these robotic answers from Watchtower or what?

This just in from CNN,
The Watchtower Society has announced that 2014 is the year of Christ’s enthronement. Watchtower spokesman Brian Bilious stated “After a careful examination of key Bible texts we have come to realize that we need to add 100 years to our previous understanding of Daniel’s Prophecy. This coincides nicely with recent new light on the appointment of the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Once again we wish to thank our Governing Body for this timely food at the proper time, enabling us to remain faithful to them as they lead us into the New Earth. We have also adopted a new motto, “Ut pergam cum MCMXIV usque factibilibus” or, for those not familiar with Latin, “Making things up as we go along since 1914”

Stay tuned for more exciting news. There are rumors that one of the GB will be appointed as the Head FDS. All faithtful witnesses are to look for white smoke coming from the chimneys at Brooklyn upon his appointment. Once appointed the new Faithful Praecipuus will be clothed in distinctive purple and gold robe to distinguish him from the other members of the FDS, who will be clothed in red and silver to distinguish them from the other Bethelites who will all wear brown smocks and are to receive an extra ration of holy bread in celebration of this glorious event:)

I remember once trying to convince a brother that I’d read an upcoming article in the WT about gluttony, and how the GB was going to start enforcing stricter guidelines– everyone was now going to have to match up to a weight/height ratio. Here in the States, that could really cause some panic. We invented over 400 uses for fried chicken after all.

Another time I told a sister how children weren’t going to be allowed in the KH anymore, since they were considered ceremonially unclean. She didn’t think it was funny. Maybe if her screaming progeny hadn’t been crying for over forty minutes already the joke would’ve gone over better.

And no one ever believes me when I say we’re going to be issued pocket watches and aren’t allowed to count time between doors any more.

OMG! if Christ’s entrhronement now is scheduled for 2014 I would like to see how many witnesses will agree with that and continue to folow WTC lies. This is really a man made religion. They have absolutely no direction from God nor the holly spirit.

Dear All;
I thought it so at the time, though I didn’t buy in to 1975.
Now; it was clearly wrong, because we re-told what we were told and did not examine the structure of the Olivet discourses, if we had we would know the “generation” has not started yet!
2014 may be a time for a humbled modest quietness.
We bear some guilt too, and we did wrong.
Face it.

There is a saying;
The man as dun nouwt rong
as done nouwt.
–which may offer some consolation to the imperfect ones of us.

Can the JW organization disfellow a female member for wearing a simple nose stud and showing off some skin? that would be so silly if the JW organization just disfellowship a member over little things that are not even sinful. Isaac wife Rebecca had a nose stud I just don’t see the big deal if I wear my nose stud after the meetings are over. If I were to become a JW I would not preach about 1914,I wouldn’t try to mold another individual into something that I want them to be, I wouldn’t try convince an individual to put all his/her hope into the Watchtower for his/her own salvation because the Watchower is not Jehovah .I would not turn my hours because Jehovah God see every single things I do , so I don’t see the point of turning my hours.I also wouldn’t preach to someone who’s starving or going through psychological issues because that person will not be capable to grasp the message. If I were to become a JW I will would gladly read and use other Bibles not just only the Watchower version. I would be glad to follow Jehovah direction and I would not bow down to man made traditions. I would be glad to humble myself and listen to what others has to say and I wouldn’t be filled with too much pride.If I were to become a JW I would be glad to stay faithful and be attach for ever and ever to my dear father Jehovah.

Dear Tinaa,
Your intentions sound like mine during my 38 yrs of activity as a JW (ending 1981) and ever since then too. How can anyone do better than try to respectfully adhere to every bit of the Bible as the guide God gave us? As you indicated, continue to be open minded about teachings concerning God, always testing the truth of the things received as to whether they agree with God’s word, as it recommends to us at 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 and Acts 17:11.
— Dudley Cook

Hi Tinaa! It would be impossible for you to be one of JWs if you feel this way! There is no way that you wouldn’t be required to teach 1914 and 1918/19. JWs MUST recognise “Jehovah’s representatives”, ie. the governing body. You can be a true witness for Jehovah without an organisation.

As regards nose studs, I think they can look beautiful. I think of Indian women…how beautiful and colourful they look. As far as skin…good advice from Reader…depends how much skin!

Dificult to advise on what is your own business, so these comments are a bit ragged;

On flesh covering, look at the convention of the group or locals, if you wish to expose more; ask yourself ‘would I wish people to touch this’ if you would not then I suggest you cover it.

Look at the way Fathers with grown up daughters, like them dressed.
Fathers were once younger men/boys.

Also why not talk to a Woman who has grown up sons, who has seen her boys, look at girls, become men, marry.

A young man in good health can be roused sexually just by the sight of a woman, which is why pictures of lightly clad women are so popular, now if that man is your husband fine, if not you may have invited trouble.

Men and women are attracted by differing aspects of the other and it can be difficult and frustrating for boys and girls to get the idea, balanced.

Make good friends with older people and talk.

On what WT would do -ask them.

B
ps: I’m a grandad.
There is only one book in the Bible with an erotic subject content, interestingly the differing views of male and female are used correctly with strict adherance to moral standards.

Hi Tinaa. I wouldn’t be worried about becoming one of Jehovah’s Witnesses with an attitude such as you have.

Christian dress and grooming is Biblical. Unfortunately, it’s a package deal. If you don’t want to preach 1914, then don’t. My problem is mostly about how they treat those not of their class and the different rules they apply to themselves.

WTC.organisation is just a cult. Once you become a member you must adhere to all the rules and regulations they placed in front of you otherwise you can be df’d. It is a high control organisation. where members are being controlled by their comments at the meetings, by the amount of time they preached every month,by their clothes they wear etc…In front of the public they try hard to impress everyone of their outstanding ” moral” conduct. But it is only in the surface.Their teachings are full of lies. to keep up with their lies they have to constantly change their ” predictions,or prophecies” with ” new light” As the generation of 1914 has grown old and died the GB feel the need to correct the meaning of “this genration will not pass away” in 2010 they came up with new light/new lie of this generation. After that new lie I tought there would be no more witnesses follow up that stupid cult. but surprisingly because of friendship and family ties most of them accept the new generation lie. But now with 2014 just around the corner, Christ enthronment in 1914 will reveal to be another lie. after 100 years of lies they will force to come up with a new explanation of christ’s enthronement. I will not be surprise to see all the 7 millions faithful followers will accept new light/lie Christ’s enthronement with great joy. lol!

Isabella. I never once felt I was in a cult while I was associating and this despite being the deepest of sceptics. Their teachings are full of badly-intentioned inaccuracies. Their unwillingness to ‘bend’ is based on their motive. For instance, 1914 as a date has long been proved not to work for two reasons:

1 WTBTS are the only ones who have arbitrarily decided that this year is a biblical date – no one else agrees (archaeology etc)

2 They don’t even accept the biblical principle on this as 1914 is based solely on the modern Gregorian solar calendar. The WTBTS themselves state that a biblical prophetic year is 360 days long based on the average of the biblical lunar year calendar.

If they renounce this teaching a whole lot of others fall flat and they’ll have to start over again.

It is not that I don’t believe they ever were, or that if they repented of the damage their wayward policies have caused and changed them, they would not continue to be God’s representative in my eyes; but blind loyalty is just that.

If I am ever arraigned before a judicial committee I will confess all teachings that are clearly biblical that the Governing Body teaches as being true; the rest will be ‘name-rank and serial number’ and ‘I’ve already answered that question’ when interrogated on all those not clearly stated in the Bible. Confessing a ‘belief’ that one KNOWS to be incorrect, I believe, is a sin. For me, this would only apply to policies that have evidentially damaged my fellow humans and unnecessary pain brought upon family members for going beyond Scripture.

Hello to everyone and also thank You for all your answers. I have clothes specifically for the KH and I wouldn’t show some part of my skin or wear my nose stud on my way to the KH by respect. Normally when I’m not in the KH or at work I like to wear my tank tops and showing some part of my belly that’s it. I wouldn’t preach 1914 and other dates because I don’t understand those dates, they just don’t make sense to me. Another thing that I don’t like about some JW is that they judge me and want me to feel guilty for using another Bible that’s not from the Watchower Society. They judge me because I don’t make enough comments at the meetings. I don’t go to meetings to meet my JW fiends expectations; I go and comments in the meetings because I want to. I’m not living an immoral life and I just want to be my best for Jehovah. What good is it going to do to me if I comment and preach, but do not obey Jehovah ? I might seem rebellious to some but I will not be controlled like a monkey toy or give power/glory that belong to Jehovah to the Watchtower or anything else. I truly believe that humans were only created to serve Jehovah. I’m all for treating others with kindness and respect but I’m so not going to spend the rest of my life trying to please people.

Hey Frank, where have you been? My JH is on jwstruggle youtube channel…since Friday I think. The sound isn’t perfect and some have trouble with the Kiwi accents. One brother on the forum here said he pictured us as the sharks from “Finding Nemo” sitting round the table!! Lol! (Incase you haven’t seen that animated movie…the sharks all had Aussie accents)

1 Your husband was able to witness the proceedings. This is banned by the WTBTS.

2 You asked to be disfellowshipped.

3 All your judges continued to laugh and joke with you after your case despite their judgement that you are an apostate.

Obviously you intended to end your official association with the Organisation at this time. As you had adopted other beliefs it would have been inappropriate to continue to associate under the present circumstances. Of course, your accusers didn’t prove that you had ‘spread teachings other those taught to Jehovah’s Witnesses.’ This by no means is unique.

In cases where there is no second witness and no confession, the committee may attempt to get the accused one to ‘confess’ to the sin by answering their prompting questions. In real courts this is called attempting to get the accused to self-implicate. Where there is no confession, this is Biblically illegal in a Christian religious court martial because the Scriptures stipulate that TWO independent and plausible witnesses to the sin at a minimum are required for a conviction. Where there is only one, there is no case to answer.

They tried this in Matthew Barrie’s appeal case and when he wouldn’t talk about his personal beliefs. The original decision to disfellowship was upheld because Matthew was convicted of ‘showing disrespect for Jehovah’s representatives.’ This was a trumped-up conviction based on this VERY respectful man failing to answer all of their probing questions to their satisfaction.

The original decision was solely based on two elders who had ‘given evidence’ stolen from confidential talk in the context of shepherding calls. These tricky-dickies claimed that at some unspecified point, they FELT that Matthew was ‘attempting to teach them teachings other than those taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses.’ No other witness was called who could corroborate that Matthew had been ‘spreading’ non-WT teachings. All other ‘evidence’ was purely hearsay.

Where no witnesses to an alleged sin is brought I can’t help but wonder why anyone would allow the Organisation the pleasure of eviction. Why not just drift?

Hi Frank. You can see why I thought the whole thing was weird. Especially all the laughing. I was laughing too. I don’t know if you caught brother mumbly saying “I don’t want to do this” to me after the “meeting”. Earlier he was the one who said something like “Shall we see if we are all in agreement?” as if they hadn’t all already decided. For a moment I thought maybe I wasn’t going to be disfellowshipped, but I said “You have to I suppose…It’s the rules”. There was never a show of hands or anything (?) If they didn’t df me I would have da’d. If that was my first choice though, I wouldn’t have got the recording,and wouldn’t have been able to draw attention to the fact that you can be df’d for following your bible trained conscience. Plus I wanted to speak about the harmful policies to inform any listening to the recording. I wasn’t there to play legal loop-hole games with them. I don’t think they would have come up with witnesses outside of the elders I sent letters to, so I could have argued the point. I don’t think these men felt “pleasure” in evicting me. They certainly would have felt more uncomfortable at having to pronounce me wicked. I wanted them to feel that. In my case, drifting was never an option. I felt strongly compelled to do things this way. I hadn’t attended meetings since January. I was being avoided, and I did not want any “encouraging” visits anyway! I am happy to be out. Hooray! Out of the tower!

Hi Rachel. Of course, the elders you dealt with were only “doing their duty” much like a firing squad, but there have been cases where even soldiers will put their consciences before their duty. Isn’t this what Nuremberg was all about?

The pleasure is all for those in power who are afraid that someone one day will take their toys away. The Internet is proving to be a powerful tool in raising people’s consciousnesses (and consciences) about the chasm between legalistic Pauline Christianity and Christ’s original template.

I thought you did well with raising the matter of hate-speech. Ray Fearon states in his JC that the WT are ‘up with the skinheads and Ku klux Klan’ with their methodology. Sadly, I can’t disagree. Far from ‘turning the other cheek’ those ‘who must be obeyed’ regularly incite the crowds to deeper distrust and disgust at free speech and thought – and conscience. And this while the WTBTS insist that Satan’s world recognise THEIR right to do as they wish under the American First Amendment (or UN convention outside America) – which, by the way, has both the censure on government interference in religious governance along with the right to free speech! Talk about paradox.

Can you publish on this site what the WT citations for the quotes that you made please. They will be useful for those forced to go through this humiliating system.

Thankyou for doing this Rupunzelsawake!! Where is the freedom of speech and freedom of worship??? The loving thing to do is the right thing to do…….. so what has been done to you and thousands like myself is WRONG.. and to go home and watch the rugby ha ha ha… WHATEVER!!! You are lucky in that you are an adult…. what about all those poor teenagers who have lost everything in being “D”… It makes me sick…….. Actually it did make me sick, as I was ‘D’ as a teenager, and I still suffer for it today, 20 years of an amazing marriage and 5 kids later. SHAME ON THEM ALL, AND YET THEY STILL SAY JEHOVAH IS THE ONLY JUDGE… TAKE CARE AND KIA KAHA MY FELLOW SISTER. XOXOOXOX

Hi Goldlocksnz!! Long time no see!!! Thankyou. Glad you picked up the bit about the rugby….mmmm…such a trivial thing spiritually executing a person! (I noticed him looking at his watch during the meeting too) Did you notice this same brother say regarding me following my own convictions, “We don’t judge you for that….we accept that…we have no trouble with that”? Huh? Then why a JUDICIAL meeting? Why am I now being shunned (as a result of being JUDGED!!) Kia Kaha to you too sis!

I’ve just been listening to Mr. and Mrs. Cedars’ tale of woe over their dfing. It is not rocket science to recognise quickly that they, along with many others, were the victims of a personal grudge. This is easily proved by the fact that when they moved congregation the response was quite different to their circumstances. Obviously no uniting divine influence is occurring here where human opinion ‘wisdom’ is in control.

This amount of inappropriate intrusion into a person’s life, in my opinion, should be made a matter of common law in a country that claims free speech and freedom of thought and the resultant damage done to society in general. Meanwhile, such files should serve to warn others about the full consequences of making a commitment to this religious organisation.

I watched the tale of Mr. and Mrs. Cedar two weeks ago. That one really burned me up. It’s impossible to see any justification on the elders’ part that could be called scriptural. Paul never disfellowshipped anyone who complained against him, and there were many. To df someone for not showing proper submission to theocratic authority…?– they may as well be cops if their egos are going to be so easily bruised.

Hi Rachel. I’ve have listened twice to the “Human apostate” convention talk and two things occur to me:

1 All the pejoratives and insults stated in this talk apply broadly to ALL who are disapproved by the WTBTS, not just those who may actively protest against WT teacings. This includes those who disassociate from the religion for no other reason other than they’re bored with meetings and want only a reasonable quality of life, and all who may have been disfellowshipped only on the basis that someone else with power didn’t like them (see above comment). There is no dividing line with ANY of the circumstances under which someone may guiltily or innocently be dealt a blow in this way. And many innocent have been ‘executed’ under this system.

2 If you replace the words ‘human apostate’ with ‘Jew,’ or ‘negro,’ or ‘queer,’ we get an inkling of how far removed such hate-speech is from the origins of Christianity.

The fact is that the Old Testament God was tribal and therefore any perception of love, compassion, modesty, and justice will only be applied to members of one’s own tribe, not to any who are perceived as an enemy either by having a full understanding of the particular situation or because someone else has ordered you to withdraw Christian duty from your fellow human.

The psychology is simple. If a person is taught that they live in a war zone (the WTBTS teaches that we are living in a world under Satan, God’s enemy and applies Theocratic War Strategy) their natural affiliations are changed to those of the perceived conqueror. Study any country and the behaviour of the general populace during war and what some individuals are capable of doing. Social shunning to this point is the worse; imagine a thousand years under this sort mental attitude!

Read the elders’ letter used in the Candace Conti case (1989) about the efforts made to hide congregation records from the secular authorities and we might see how far afield we have drifted from humanist principles.

Hi Frank. Yes, I substituted the word “apostate” in that talk with “Jew” and “black” and tested it out on a few people! It reeked of racism and bigotry! If I said that out loud in public I would be lynched! So why does the WTBTS think they can get away with it?…apostates are really just former members who have a different belief. Do they not recognise their own hypocrisy? Are they really that stupid? Hope it bites them in the butt.

Had they lynched you, Rachel, your lynching would have made the point. KKK has done that many times in their past, and not to be forgotten is that many supremacists are religious . The reason they get away with it is for the same reason the KKK get away with it – The First Amendment. Hate speech allowed – lynching not.

Did you notice, too, that in the “Human Apostates” talk not one fact was given, but there were innumerable claims made? Joseph Goebbels would have been proud!

Yes Frank, they must have carefully selected what “allegations” they brought up, and then exaggerated them, ie. apostates claim they (WBTS)SUPPORTED Hitler, they deliberately REFUSED MEDICAL TREATMENT for children, and they DELIBERATELY CONDONED SERIOUS SINS of some in the organisation. I have discovered no apostates that make these claims the way they word them. In the letter to Hitler, and in the Declaration of Facts (that appeared in a WT magazine) it seems they “greased up” to him, suggesting their goals/ideals and aspirations were the same, in order to be recognised and to enable the preaching activity. They definitely painted Jews in a very negative light. Apostates have not said the org deliberately condones serious sins (I expect they are referring to child sexual abuse) but that the policies are inadequate to protect children.

“one persons rebel is another persons freedom fighter. one religion’s apostate is another religion’s convert.”

The WTS is so dangerously controlling that they have the r and F convinced that even when the WTS is DEAD WRONG, that helps to prove that it is God’s channel because they change their DEAD WRONG ‘old lite’. lol The internet facts has certainly pressed the 8 ‘popes’ of Brooklyn to tighten the ‘apostate’ threat so that dubs can’t even show the slightest doubt without being accused.

Rachel, you make a particularly significant point. There is evidence of Nazi sympathy that can be read on the Internet today. The ongoing relationship with such admiration is clearly tied up with this religion’s methodology. The fact that a 16 minute talk extract designed to demonise a helpless minority can contain only claims and no factual evidence – is EVIDENCE that propaganda can live on in a different form.

I’m with Richard Dawkins on this. Religion has come to expect special treatment and to be believed merely on the pretext that faith is righteous in nature. In the 21st century such ideas deserve our cynicism.

Example: As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I never knew even that one palatial property (Beth Sarim) had been purchased by the WTBTS under Judge Rutherford, let alone that there was a second (Beth Shan “House of Security”). Not only had publishers’ money purchased at least one, if not two, personal Cadillacs for Rutherford (Consolation stated that they were “a gift from the bretheren’), but along with the second hard-to-access property, there was a bomb shelter complete with 007-type secret entrance through a bathroom.

Didn’t Hitler have a bunker?

Are we to conclude from this, according to the Occam’s Razor principle, that, as Time magazine put it (March 31st, 1930), that Rutherford was the leader of a Californian cult or that his constantly-being-updated teachings were the result of divine inspiration?

Is it also reasonable to conclude that, should a Bible apocalyptic prophecy be fulfilled during WW2, that there was only enough room in the bunker for JR (initials probably not a coincidence)and his close friends while the rest of “the brethren” took their chances with the invaders?

Of course, the great multitude will shout: ‘They’re just imperfect men,’ and ‘we have more light now,’ or even, ‘they’re a product of their time and zeitgeist,’ but one should remember that today there are additional ways to finance public and private agendas complete with ATM transactions, automatic payments, and other ‘love gifts.’

I wonder, too, whether Brooklyn had a bunker or even that Warwick does.

The WTBTS may have no kind word for their apostate enemies, but I wonder where such information leaves them when they ‘store up treasures for themselves on Earth’?

Thanks for those. Very INTERESTING! Makes you wonder if the near future move north (?) to that woodland area is a red herring. They will “plant the roof with hardy plants”….mmmm perhaps then no-one will be able to tell it’s not really there!

Perhaps I’m being naive because I came late to this invaluable information. One thing is for sure, there are a lot of secrets to protect. Every day that goes by makes it harder for me to avoid using the word ‘cult.’ I still apparently maintain the hope that I may just wake up and find it’s all just a horrible nightmare – decades lost to a powerful meme that has little more goodness than a cola drink.

For the average Witness they have to get past the scarecrows and the armed turrets to discover there is fresh air on the other side of the perimeter.

If you’ve heard the “Human apostate” convention talk, you may recognise the flavour of these sentiments from Joseph Goebbels:

“Every Jew is our enemy in this historic struggle, regardless
of whether he vegetates in a Polish ghetto or carries on his
parasitic existence in Berlin or Hamburg or blows the trumpets
of war in New York or Washington. All Jews by virtue of their
birth and their race are part of an international conspiracy
against National Socialist Germany. They want its defeat and
annihilation, and do all in their power to bring it about. That
they can do nothing inside the Reich is hardly a sign of their
loyalty, but rather of the appropriate measures we took against them.

One of these measures is the institution of the yellow star
that each Jew must wear. We wanted to make them visible as Jews,
particularly if they made even the least attempt to harm the
German community. It is a remarkably humane measure on our part,
a hygienic and prophylactic measure to be sure that the Jew cannot
infiltrate our ranks unseen to sow discord.”

As I slowly awakened to the TATT that is one thing that kept gnawing at me. While I fully believe that God’s purpose to redeem mankind and restore the Earth to a paradise is a future reality, the prospect of living under the regime that the WTS has set up and their insistence that the elders are the future “princes” who will rule over us is terrifying. While Adam would have always been the earthly father of mankind I believe that, had he remained faithful, then his children would not have been bound by an extensive list of do’s and don’ts but rather their consciences. They would have progressed in their knowledge of Jehovah and the created world and made non-fatal mistakes as they advanced and grew. If, as Satan did, they chose to act as independent creations and violate his principles then Jehovah would have the absolute right to put them to death. I have no problem with that as it makes perfect righteous sense. The problem with the WTS interpretation of Jehovah’s will is that they complicate the simplicity and beauty of accepting the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. They restrict the very mechanism that Jehovah has provided to get mankind out of sin.

Hi Chris. Had Adam and Eve not sinned, none of this would have been an issue. The fact that the seeds of human emotional and spiritual cruelty seem to pockmark the New Testament is the very reason why I have become a theistic agnostic.

I have seen the way the human mind institutionally goes way beyond the ideal of what we imagine Christianity to entail; and it’s not a pretty sight. This is why I know Mr. and Mrs. Cedars’ tale of woe checks out as factual. Individuals do take their power to be a birthright rather than a privilege and they use it to the full. Where do they get these attitudes from? We could say “the WTBTS,” but that would not be the full answer.

Logically, the next thing to do is create a macabre parody using Goebbel’s extract and insert language similar to that used in the “Human Apostate” convention talk. This could be what one might hear:

“Every apostate is our enemy in this time of the end of this old system of things, regardless of whether he publishes hatred of God’s Organisation on the Internet or carries on his parasitic existence in private conversations intent on misleading the true servants of God, or seeks to undermine the truth of the Bible as taught by true Christians privately to family members. All apostates by virtue of their mentally-diseased thinking and their desire to carry out the will of the Devil are part of an international conspiracy against God’s true organisation on earth today. They want its defeat and annihilation, and do all in their power to bring it about. That they can do nothing but smile and play innocent within the congregation is hardly a sign of their loyalty, but rather evidence that they wait for opportunity to mislead the spiritually weak.

One of these measures is the institution of regular warnings against their warped thinking that each apostate must fear. We wanted to make them visible as enemies, particularly if they make even the least attempt to harm the true Christian community. It is a remarkably humane measure on our part,
a hygienic and prophylactic measure to be sure that apostates cannot infiltrate our ranks unseen to sow discord.”

Lol Frank!! It translates very well. Just as well Geobbel isn’t around to have you for plagiarism. This would be good for my next letter to the GB! “Apostate” is a label…a verbal label rather than a literal one, and connected to “web-sites”…and applied liberally to anyone with any criticism (or implied criticism) of the almighty org. I would love to see the Human Apostates talk get some media coverage…

Hi Rachel. Garbled Goebbel is a parody. There is no law against genuine parody. Besides it’s more than 50 years old, unlike the new Nazism that lives on in socialistic religion.

We should all be very afraid that such hate speech is still around today. My advice to the emotionally weak is – first get some self-esteem and then tell them: “Don’t speak to me in that tone of voice!”

We might quake if Sharia law is invoked one day. Imagine if such totalitarianism ever gets to become law.

On the subject, apostates, the site worth checking out, Worship Jehovah-divine rescue, has some very interesting and comforting information about what apostasy is not. This “site” is listed, under other sites of interest” listed on this site.

thank you for your kind words. The articles were designed to take away the fears caused by hurtful doctrines. You may like to see the “Hatred” article, which discusses the timely 1993 article “Search Through Me, O God”

Hi Rachel and any who want to get this point well in mind about how easy hate-speech can enter our vocabulary. Joseph Goebbels is such an great example of how, with merely a little tweak here and there, witch-hunts can begin in earnest at any time in history.

Thus, here is even a better example – from the same essay dated 1941. First the original text from the Goebbels essay, then the easily adapted text mimicking speech that could be heard from a WT convention platform:

“If this advice applies anywhere, it apples to our relations with the Jews. Carelessness here is not only a weakness, it is disregard of duty and a crime against the security of the state. The Jews long for one thing: to reward our foolishness with bloodshed and terror. It must never come to that. One of the most effective defenses is an unforgiving, cold hardness against the destroyers of our people, against the instigators of the war, against those who would benefit if we lose, and therefore also against the victims, if we win.

Therefore, we must say again and yet again:

1. The Jews are our destruction. They started this war and direct it. They want to destroy the German Reich and our people. This plan must be blocked.

2. There are no distinctions between Jews. Each Jew is a sworn enemy of the German people. If he does not make his hostility plain, it is only from cowardice and slyness, not because he loves us.

3. The Jews are to blame for each German soldier who falls in this war. They have him on their conscience, and must also pay for it.

4. If someone wears the Jewish star, he is an enemy of the people. Anyone who deals with him is the same as a Jew and must be treated accordingly. He earns the contempt of the entire people, for he is a craven coward who leaves them in the lurch to stand by the enemy.

5. The Jews enjoy the protection of our enemies. That is all the proof we need to show how harmful they are for our people.

6. The Jews are the enemy’s agents among us. He who stands by them aids the enemy.

7. The Jews have no right to claim equality with us. If they wish to speak on the streets, in lines outside shops or in public transportation, they should be ignored, not only because their
are simply wrong, but because they are Jews who have no right to a voice in the community.

8. If the Jews appeal to your sentimentality, realize that they are hoping for your forgetfulness, and let them know that you see through them and hold them in contempt.

9. A decent enemy will deserve our generosity after we have won. The Jew however is not a decent enemy, though he tries to seem so.

10. The Jews are responsible for the war. The treatment they receive from us is hardly unjust. They have deserved it all. It is the job of the government to deal with them. No one has the right to act on his own, but each has the duty to support the state’s measures against the Jews, to defend them with others, and to avoid being misled by any Jewish tricks.

“If this advice applies anywhere, it apples to our relations with apostates. Carelessness here is not only a weakness, it is disregard of duty and a crime against God’s true organisation. Apostates long for one thing: to reward our foolishness with the opportunity to twist Bible truth and win us over. It must never come to that. One of the most effective defences is an unforgiving, cold hardness against the destroyers of true Christian faith, against the instigators of apostasy, against those who would benefit if we remain weak in our resolve, and therefore also against the victims, when we win.

Therefore, we must say again and yet again:

1. Apostates are our destruction. They started this war of spiritual lies and direct it. They want to destroy the God’s true organisation and its people. Their desires must be blocked.

2. There are no distinctions between apostates. Each apostate is a sworn enemy of the God’s people. If he does not make his hostility plain, it is only from cowardice and slyness, not because he loves us.

3. Apostates are to blame for each individual Christian who falls in Satan’s system of things. They have him on their conscience, and must also pay for it.

4. If someone identifies themselves as a true Christian but is not, he is an enemy of the people. Anyone who deals with him is the same as an apostate and must be treated accordingly. He earns the contempt of the entirety of God’s people, for he is a craven coward who leaves them in the lurch to stand by the enemy.

5. Apostates enjoy the protection of our enemies. That is all the proof we need to show how harmful they are for our people.

6. Apostates are the Satan’s agents among us. He who stands by them aids the enemy (2 John 8–11).

7. Apostates have no right to claim equality with us. If they wish to speak on the streets, in lines outside shops or in public transportation, they should be ignored, not only because they are simply wrong, but because they are apostates who have no right to a voice in the true Christian community.

8. If apostates appeal to your sentimentality, realize that they are hoping for your forgetfulness, and let them know that you see through them and hold them in contempt.

9. A decent enemy will deserve our generosity after we have won. The apostate however is not a decent enemy, though he tries to seem so.

10. Apostates are responsible for the present situation of extreme spiritual danger in these last days. The treatment they receive from us is hardly unjust. They have deserved it all. It is the job of God’s servants in authority here on earth to deal with them. No one has the right to act on his own, but each has the duty to support the Organisation’s measures against apostates, to defend them with others, and to avoid being misled by any of Satan’s machinations.

Hi Freethinker…thanks for pointing me in the direction of that website. I had missed that.

Hi Frank….UNBELIEVABLE!!! You’ve come up with a doozy there! Says it all doesn’t it!!! This would make a great basis for a newspaper article come convention time…..People need to SEE this!! Could it be used in a “tract” that could be placed under windscreen wipers perhaps? It could be effective.

The problem here is not just that it is clearly hate-speech, but that ANY person from a disassociated one (no Biblical crime) or the victim of an elder’s personal grudge, to an active campaigner will ALL suffer the same stigma.

The fact is that a Biblical crime doesn’t actually have to be committed for a person to come under this stigma.

The WTBTS, like Goebbels, concentrates on the PERSON. Kristallnact was the first evidence of this for the Jewish minority. If they claim that each Christian makes up his/her own mind to shun socially, we need to keep publishing stuff like this to raise peoples’ consciousness.

Dear All;
The consequences of such action might not be as intended.
Once this humour goes public, it can be used by enemies of truth in general.
You will have used your credibility to make out your former brothers are Nazis.
Such a stigma could result in things you detest.
Nobody knows the motives of all who read or listen to their words.
Remember how Paul spoke of the Jews; Romans 9, 1Timothy 5 v 1,2.
Be sure to act in a Christlike manner and not revile in return.
B

Reader, this is nonsense you’re talking. Christ admonished his followers to love their enemies! And you are seriously mistaken if you think this is humour!! Satire maybe, but I don’t think broken families are funny, nor do I believe that any institutional bullying is funny!

It is indeed ironic that you seem to feel that I’m witch-hunting the witch-hunters. Self-praise is no recommendation when an organisation dangerously assumes it can act in this churlish way to protect its share of the faith-market and make the assumption that because they preach the Good News that they are untouchable. An infamous group tried that in Jesus’ day – where are they now?

Historically it is common for eventual abuses to occur within any context, religious or otherwise. In the case of the WTBTS it is the use and abuse of the American First Amendment that enables this hate-speech to continue. This is the text:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Can you see why free speech and thought is abused while religion can ensure that freedom the same freedom is curtailed and even banned?

As to my charge of calling the brothers Nazis is simply ridiculous. At least I am only claiming that the ‘hate-speech’ POLICY is abusive. I have not at any time focused my attention on the creators of this policy.

I would like to know how you define ‘truth,’ though – ‘revealed’ truth, ‘Bible’ truth, ‘religious’ truth, ‘WT truth,’ which?

Frank: I would like to know how you define ‘truth,’ though – ‘revealed’ truth, ‘Bible’ truth, ‘religious’ truth, ‘WT truth,’ which?

I do not pre deffine truth, WT truth I have had problems with since I was 16 approx, but I’ve been faded for some years now and so I don’t know the present situation WT wise.
The FDS=GB baffles me, seems to be picking things out of the air? Seems to me Angels dancing on a pin sort of stuff.
So I suppose I might be JW ex WT if there is such a thing.
Jesus said my sheep know my voice, so truth might be in the listening.
B

I see what you are getting at Reader. JWs I’m sure would be appalled at Goebbel’s hate speech and would likely shut off their thinking if they thought they were being compared to him….or to Nazis. But they have to see the hypocrisy of what they are doing. Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy! If done tactfully and subtly it could make those with consciences think. I would love to know if JWs are talking about the Human Apostate Talk after having heard it…..if it has bothered any of them.

But why are we walking on eggshells here, Rachel? Those who hand out the pejoratives should be prepared to withstand genuine criticism. I have made no outlandish claims. All I want is ANYONE to read both passages and then compare the adapted Goebbels speech to the “Human Apostate” talk. Shouldn’t such speech raise alarm bells with all of Jesus’ followers?

Yes, of course it should ring alarm bells with “normal” thinking people! If the target audience is normal rational people (ie. non-JWs) the WT could say (in Goebbel’s words): “Apostates enjoy the PROTECTION of our ENEMIES. This is ALL THE PROOF WE NEED to show how harmful they are for our people.” We have to reach those on the inside, not depend on pressure from the outside only. Next years Human Apostate Talk could otherwise include the exagerated claim that apostates accuse JWs of being Nazis!

If you were going to place flyers under wiper-blades you would have to fool the readers or they’ll throw it away without even looking at it. For example, if you put “Highlights of the Human Apostate Talk” on the top of the page and then included the parody of Goebbel’s tirade against the Jews, that might be enough. They would read it, and then agree with it. Some time later, someone would point out to them the origin of the speech (for someone is bound to recognize it sooner or later), and then just let the shame set in naturally.

You make some valid points here, Rachel, and perhaps I over-reacted to Reader too.

My concern, however, is historical, and because we’re dealing with free speech, ironically, the only way to deal with this hate-speech is to advertise how easily it is to fall into another ‘Nazi Germany-type state and how easily the human mind can be subverted.

Overcoming mind-conditioning is difficult. Christianity isn’t Nazism, but it is the religious form of Socialism and by its very nature is separatist. One saying is: “For one man to have a delusion – that’s madness, for many to have a delusion – that takes religion.”

This type of delusion is dangerous as, indeed, so were delusions of the eugenic type. Clarity of thinking, evidence, and proof can break the cycle. Please keep critiquing what I do, Rachel, I greatly appreciate it, as I do yours, Reader and others.

Dear Frank;
I didn’t say STOP, I said be very CAREFUL.
I live in the UK, in Old England.
About 2 miles from here is the place some Catholic priests bodies were exhibited in the Middle Ages, a bit further a place where a woman was burned at the stake for listening to Bible readings.
I know the Northern Ireland troubles were publicized in the US.
Free Speech is fragile and is not very old in many ways, and Hate has few effective Laws against it.
The concrete base of freedoms has not yet set.
Nobody thought the Nazis would rise in Germany it was a modern Country a first bastion of Protestantism.
Think of some little old sister plying her magazines on dark nights.
Beware of Pyrrhic victory.
Many freedoms of the US were won in Europe as the US was settled, the cost is in our history books.
B

Hi Reader. Thank you for your concern, however, unlike Mr. Rushdie, I write under a pseudonym, thus making my traceability more challenging for those who eschew reasonable criticism.

I think you raise a fascinating issue here in your comment. It is my understanding that the Declaration of Independence was spurred by waste of human resources by the demand of the British government for American youth to soldier their armies in wars against foes in wars that had nothing to do with America. Soon came the Bill of Rights and the American Constitution. In the Treaty of Tripoli there is a statement that none of these human works are Christian in origin. Indeed, the separation between church and state supports this. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Your comment about the martyring of those who spoke in the past out is interesting too. There is nothing new about secular governments coming under the spell of religious clerics. The fact that the Mohammad cartoons were all but removed from news articles during the pandemonium as a sop to quell the violence is evidence of this. In effect, this cowardice was characterised by the statement: “We’ll say nice things about Islam and give you some some of what you seek if you stop bashing and trashing us.”

Today we know this as a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Hard times are ahead for what we in the free world most cherish.

What’s happening with the WTBTS is equally interesting. Can anyone show me at least one article in the Watchtower or Awake! that extols the virtue of the work of the OSCE and its secret partner, the UN? If the Society believes this to be part of God’s Will, why is it not publicised to the hilt?

Anyone who chooses to familiarise themselves with the OSCE’s political and secular agenda will see many many submissions have been made for assistance to open up the preaching work, particularly in Europe.

Do we then assume that this ‘new-found’ friendship would inform us why most, if not all, the educational Sparlock videos were removed from Youtube? How about sites closed down merely for publishing extracts from historical WT and Awake! magazines, many extracts from more than 50 years previously?

Religio-political seduction comes in many forms.

It would be ironic, but nowadays understandable, if the enemies of free-speech were castigated, punished, and silenced, but that’s the world which those in power with mercurial ethics and morals deserve. Selling out to the highest bidder is merely a characteristic of evolving apes.

Please keep in touch, Reader and feel free to disagree. I thrive on it.

Dear Frank,
I think the WT identification of the UN as the “Disgusting thing causing Desolation” of Daniel 11 v 31c [ref; from Matthew 24 v 15] is incorrect.

Therefore the UN is a governmental institution and in its case Romans 13 v 7 should be the guiding principle. Though the UN may well yet prove to be the ten kings of Revelation 17 v 12,13. Until then Romans 13 v 7 should guide us.

So I feel they goofed somewhat when teaching one thing while joining it, they might be due a dunce cap but not a 666 mark.

Hi there Reader, Rachel, and all who would like to contribute to this debate. Do I assume that the matter of alleged spiritual adultery is a bridge too far for some?

JJ in his article above mentions ‘rogue Jehovah’s Witnesses’ who continue to come on to his sites to render judgement, rather than argument. Even if these rogue JWs listen to the GB’s ‘advice’ to stay away from ‘apostate sites’ it will be short- lived. Human nature is such that those who have doubts will continue to satisfy their curiosity while simultaneously exploding in ‘righteous indignation’ when confronted with the possibility that they entertain their doubts – that’s why they come to ‘apostate sites.’

To these true servants of God I ask that they destroy my obviously wrong view that the WTBTS has broken its own claim to being political neutral.

To do this all they have to do is:

1 Cite or quote any Watchtower publication article that clearly shows this religious organisation is enjoying partnership with political entities and that this is God’s present will. To do this they would additionally have to:

2 Give clear Biblical-supported admonition that in the Time of the End, God’s organisation of pure worship would rightly engage in such a political alliances.

3 Give Biblically-supported reasons why looking to ‘Satan’s System’ for help to accomplish God’s Will is fully compatible with Christ’s words that his disciples would be ‘no part of the world.’ (James 4:4)

4 Show why requesting such help makes ‘respecting secular authorities’ equal with actively working with them to accomplish God’s Will.

Frank: Do I assume that the matter of alleged spiritual adultery is a bridge too far for some?

Dear All;

Yes [main theme], it is a personal contradiction to defend what one is not loyal too.

Judging by the ranges of reply [on this site], there are all sorts here; on way in and on way out. Of those on way out differing issues, 1; Those coming out on some principle 2; Those who should have accepted reproof and ought to humble themselves, but seek to justify themselves instead. Visitors and regulars are a disparate group, some are clearly in personal agony. Because of the nature of the web they land on a page which has a key word link with their search. Out of WT there is no homogeneous audience.
Pre-fixing words with “spiritual” is a common WT habit not clear to all.

Your questions 1-4 are fair, but some may differ on how absolute you can be;

Political is not the same to all.
Politics is related to the word policy; we must remember Joseph was appointed ‘prime minister’ and Daniel was appointed ‘Pope’ by the rulers in their day. Genesis 41 v 40-42 Daniel 2 v 48

“Political”:
1. Of, relating to, or dealing with the structure or affairs of government, politics, or the state.
2. Relating to, involving, or characteristic of politics or politicians: “Calling a meeting is a political act in itself” (Daniel Goleman).
3. Relating to or involving acts regarded as damaging to a government or state: political crimes.
4. Interested or active in politics: I’m not a very political person.
5. Having or influenced by partisan interests: The court should never become a political institution.
6. Based on or motivated by partisan or self-serving objectives: a purely political decision.

– The Free Dictionary.

Attached to your comments above come other questions:

1 How different do you feel the WTBTS’s alliance with the OSCE/UN is from, say, the Catholic Church’s alliance with Mussolini and the German National Socialist Party in the 1930s and ’40s to its ensure survival and legal recognition?

2 Keeping in mind, the WTBTS’s view that God’s Word should be kept pure, would you consider it ethical to add the word “legal” to the New World Translation at Philippians 1:7 where no other translation (that I have researched) has this qualifying word to justify involving the governmental agencies of the present to accomplish God’s Will?

3 Yes, it is true that Joseph became Prime Minister of Egypt, apparently through God’s involvement. Taking this into account, though, and considering that the Mosaic Law strictly forbade Israel’s making pagan political alliances, how could the Old Testament’s Joseph’s situation be used to parallel the WTBTS’s present political position?

4 Likewise, Daniel, was in the secular employ of King Nebuchadnezzar, much like Christians today may have secular jobs in government labour, was promoted to a high position. The fact this had nothing to do with Daniel making alliances is shown by the later conspiracy brought by the Satraps in order to bring Daniel down using Babyloninan law. Again, how does this parallel the WTBTS’s present position?

5 Can it be deduced that a clear pathway lies between the 10-year indirect membership with the UN motivationally and the present relationship with the UN/OSCE?

6 Is it consistent to view their ally as “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” while simultaneously enjoying the OSCE’s protection?

7 First century preaching work began as an illegal activity and was only made legal under pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great. As with question 2, why is there a move to ‘legalise’ preaching work that is commissioned from heaven?

8 As the OSCE/UN are presently working with the WTBTS, does this mean that God now sees these allies in a different way than traditionally seen? Are they still part of Satan’s “seed”?

Thank you for your answers so far. I will look forward to your responses.

1 How different do you feel the WTBTS’s alliance with the OSCE/UN is from, say, the Catholic Church’s alliance with Mussolini and the German National Socialist Party in the 1930s and ’40s to its ensure survival and legal recognition?

Gets ugly with that pairing!

2 Keeping in mind, the WTBTS’s view that God’s Word should be kept pure, would you consider it ethical to add the word “legal” to the New World Translation at Philippians 1:7 where no other translation (that I have researched) has this qualifying word to justify involving the governmental agencies of the present to accomplish God’s Will?

The Kingdom Interlineal translates “defense and stabilizing” to defending and legally establishing.
The Interlinear Bible J.P.Green “defense and confirmation” to the same.
Words are numbered 951 confirmation & 627 defence in JPG, strongs concordance numbers.
Strongs at 627; from same as 626 apology plea, answer for self, clearing of self,defense
Strongs at 626; contains legal context.
NOW I CAN’T READ GREEK but my dad could, and he showed me how to use concordances.
The translation is not wrong, however the original in terms of plea are less aggressive in action than legally establishing [ almost from defence to attack]. Here perhaps is a case similar to the way England’s English may not carry the same meaning to a person using one of its myriad versions of other countries. English has conquered more of the World than the English ever did.
Perhaps the wording could be revised?

3 Yes, it is true that Joseph became Prime Minister of Egypt, apparently through God’s involvement. Taking this into account, though, and considering that the Mosaic Law strictly forbade Israel’s making pagan political alliances, how could the Old Testament’s Joseph’s situation be used to parallel the WTBTS’s present political position?

Joseph was not under Mosaic Law, though Egyptians were privileged easier access to become Israelites.
It can’t the noticeable difference being Joseph’s 7years good and 7years famine happened.

4 Likewise, Daniel, was in the secular employ of King Nebuchadnezzar, much like Christians today may have secular jobs in government labour, was promoted to a high position. The fact this had nothing to do with Daniel making alliances is shown by the later conspiracy brought by the Satraps in order to bring Daniel down using Babyloninan law. Again, how does this parallel the WTBTS’s present position?

7years madness happened.

5 Can it be deduced that a clear pathway lies between the 10-year indirect membership with the UN motivationally and the present relationship with the UN/OSCE?

If Joseph had denounced Pharaoh as a representative of Evil.
If Daniel had denounced Nebuchadnezzar as a butcher.
If you don’t want to be burnt, then don’t light fires. 1Cor 15 v 33

6 Is it consistent to view their ally as “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” while simultaneously enjoying the OSCE’s protection?

No its hypocritical may well backfire.
Also needless because the UN isn’t the “the disgusting thing that causes desolation”

7 First century preaching work began as an illegal activity and was only made legal under pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great. As with question 2, why is there a move to ‘legalise’ preaching work that is commissioned from heaven?

Good manners to ask?

8 As the OSCE/UN are presently working with the WTBTS, does this mean that God now sees these allies in a different way than traditionally seen? Are they still part of Satan’s “seed”?

Hi Reader, I’m researching Philippians 1;7 and I can find no evidence that the words “confirmation,” or “stabilizing” have a legal meaning, other than when they are used to describe legal words. The Greek word βεβαι´ωσις (bebaiōsis; from 950; confirmation:—) seems to have a context of baptism (Catholic confirmation, for instance) but no legal application.

Please place the URL for Strong’s 626 as I can find no reference.

This is important because it is a matter of clarification or justification on the part of the WTBTS. After all, if “God’s Servants” can add a word to make a scripture read as it wants, then how is it wrong to add 1 John 5:8, a whole scripture, to ‘qualify’ the Biblical ‘teaching’ of the Trinity?

If there is no justification to add a legal definition to this Greek word, then where is the WTBTS getting its authority from? Surely not heaven. After all, if the success of the world-wide preaching campaign depends on human goodness then how is the work a glory to God?

Hi brothers. I’ve just got back from being away a few days and now am catching up with your discussion here. Yes, at the very least, the WTBS is being hypocritical “touching the unclean thing”, the “disgusting thing causing desolation” which they believe to be the UN…the beast full of blasphemous names! Seems there are double standards in practice. A JW friend of mine was being abused by her husband and went to “women’s refuge” (an organisation to provide safety for victims of domestic abuse). Another “sister” phoned her with her express disapproval of her going to “Satan’s organisation” for help! You can imagine how this sister felt! It turned out that this disapproving sister had been encouraged by the elders to stay with her own abusive husband!!! I know this hasn’t much to do with the subject at hand, but does show the double standards. The WTBTS uses “Satan’s organisation” as it suits…and condemns it at the same time.

I think the boys at Bethel occasionally forget that Paul told us to pray for our political leaders so that things would go well with us. It would actually be morally wrong for us to pray in behalf of wicked men, so my understanding makes me think that they, politicians, occupy their place with God’s approval (Cf., Nebuchadnezzar’s appointed position). Temporarily, at least. Here in the States, we can be df’ed for voting on social matters that affect us; as if we were casting lots within Satan’s regime. If that were the case, then Paul told us to pray for Satan’s success.

When I consider the meaning of “touching the unclean thing”, I always come back to “the poles in the high places”, where worship was practiced willy-nilly. The Israelites were drawn to the party towns where they made sacrifices and danced and ate and drank wine, but their standards of worship weren’t in accordance with God’s will. It is not even known if they were sacrificing to false gods in these places at all times.

So Here I find myself stuck again on WT doctrine again. The things associated with Halloween in the U.S. are frequently despicable enough so that I keep my distance (like many other Christians from a variety of churches). But what about Christmas? I’m not personally offended by trees and tinsel, but is God? Aaron’s sons were burned in fire from Jehovah for making a careless offering. And most certainly it wasn’t an offering to a false god, just something that fell outside the proscribed program. So how careful do I have to be about things like Christmas?…

Just trying not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Anywho, welcome back Rupunzel. I’ve had a busy weekend so I’ve been gone as well. Your story about the sister seeking protection and the Elders’ response seems atypical. Clearly they were delving into their personal philosophies about how to deal with the situation. If their stance described above were standard, then JWs wouldn’t even be able to call the police if they were being attacked because that would be putting reliance in Satan’s organization.
(That might not be too far off the mark though– cops will certainly have a lot to answer for on Judgement Day– haha)

Hi miscreant. The sister who went into the refuge is now divorced from her husband who is still in good standing, but inactive. Another sister who helped her to go to the refuge was “told off” by the elders for contributing to the marital break-up! Further to that, she said her application to regular pioneer was turned down because of it! (I”m only repeating what the abused sister told me.
It’s sad that some consider humanitarian organisations to be part of Satan’s organisation just because they are outside of the WT.

About trees in worship. The goddess Asherah, married to El, was represented by a tree, or sacred pole.(The poles themselves were called asherah) She was the Caananite goddess of fertility. God’s people were told, “You must not plant for yourself any sort of tree as a sacred pole”.(Deut 16:21) Perhaps God would be offended by a tree? However, we also have the “tree of life” of God’s own planting…and it was (and will be) life giving. Perhaps tree worship derived from there? Life = fertility??

It is a pity how many believing men, still carry the seniority of being male in a manner which means they continue to dominate females, which hurts. Genesis 3 v 16 fulfilling a curse. Malachi 2 v 13 & 15a
B

My dilemma is: Is the Bible through Paul telling us that it is part of God’s Will that the Good News preaching would be made legal?

If this is the case, in what way does the commission to preach the Kingdom (that will replace these governments) issue from heaven?

Can the WTBTS have it both ways – insolently treat their acolytes for making any contribution to this present system, and then make choices how it itself will manipulate the system to their own benefit?

The work of opening up frontiers legally to distribute literature is a good work – but how is it to the glory of God if men give their permission to accomplish this miraculous and unique work?

If the GB are already the FDS then the Superior Authorities are no longer superior to them. Hence they may disregard those instructions, however to those of us making no such FDS claim they still are the Superior Authorities.

Hi Rachel. I love your closing gambit in your last comment. We call women the fairer species and boy, isn’t that true. Organised religion, carnal warfare, commerce, politics (until recently) have all historically been filled with buckets of testosterone. Like John Lennon I try to imagine a world of peace. The world, I believe, would have been a better place without male domination. After all, women couldn’t do any worse.

Yes, you are right, in Genesis God was cursing Woman (with all her descendants) for original sin. Most apologists claim God was merely stating the consequences of sin.

I was once a JW apologist, I had an answer (Watchtower Inspired) for alot of things, but I never did disrespect anyone. One day I found out that there were a few things that I, or any JW, could deny, alot of the concerns ex JWs had were the same ones I had but had kept on the back burner for a long time.Now I have almost finished my fade and I pray that many people wake up to TTATT. It is interesting how some of the people with whom I have talked to that are JWs (some are even inactive) who defend the organization no matter what and turn a blind eye to the facts and when they have nothing else to say they resort to comments like the ones these “Fine” Jehovah’s Witnesses made on brother Eric’s channel, they have even cussed me out and tell me to STFU and just can’t see why I am saying the things I am since I have not been Reproved nor DFed and according to them “nobody has done anything” to me…well I pray for them too, I hope I plant the seeds in their hearts to inspire them to do their research. And it is all we can hope for, but it is comical to see how they will break the rules and be so disrespectful and judgemental and insulting, aren’t we supposed to be the “only true” religion? What a good testimony they are giving to people who suddenly realize JWs aren’t so “christian” now are they? I think they think they must respect everyone except anyone who says anythings against the organization, then they can be as ruthless as they want to because we are condemned to their eyes anyways.
C M

Great point C M. And these “JW Apologists” continue to comment more and more on my YouTube channel, nearly every day. I try to respond to each of them, and also send them a personal message via YT as well.

Notice here there is no possible path that describes what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is doing in their present relationship with the OSCE/UN.

Stong’s 626 Greek word, apologeomai, is not used in Philippians 1:7 as it is invariably translated “answer” and not “defense.” In both 626 and 627 the function with regard to the preaching of the Good News (Gospel) is simply to defend when such is DEMANDED.

In Acts chapters 24 and 25 (the only cross-reference in the Reference New World Translation Bible to Phil. 1:7), Paul was defending himself against a plot against his life to Felix and Festus. Paul used the time to give a witness about the Good News but it the action itself wasn’t HIS INITIATIVE. He was merely doing what 1 Peter 3:15 commanded – to be READY to make a defence for what the Christian believed. This carries no directive to engage in attempts to ‘legalise’ the Gospel. As the authority came from heaven, such attempts could be seen as an apostasy rather than the doing of God’s Will as its propriety would depend on human goodness for its success.

We must also conclude that the translators of the NWT possibly flagrantly misinterpreted Philippians 1:7 to “write in” human authority to “legalise” their principal ordained work – a private agenda, perhaps – or simply an error.

Hi Rachel. Then you are the first to discover the “closing gambit.” Though not a member of the fairer gender, I have seen enough crap being dealt to women to know male “superior male” stops at his fists, and occasionally not even there.

It seems that one must become an atheist to appreciate how unappreciated women have been through history. No one can say for sure history would have essentially different with ladies at the tiller, but my anger boils when I see girls maimed for the single desire to become educated. isn’t that pathetic? Males with guns who are so threatened by the “intrusion” of a female point of view that they have to attempt to destroy the object of their fear!

Mother Teresa and Margaret Thatcher might be exceptions to the case, however.

I would like to hear your view on the Philippians 1:7 position. Do you think the Gospel should be legalised?

Is there a Biblically backed case for going cap-in-hand to “Satan’s System” to ligitimise the preaching work?

Does apologetics stretch to going making efforts to get the OSCE and the UN on the WTBTS’s side?

Is this present position a clear abandonment of political neutrality?

If elements of this old system play their part in the outworking of God’s Will in these last days, then will these willing workers also receive salvation for services rendered?

Dear Frank;
I am a little confused by your Atheist assertions mingled with deeper Scriptural reasoning’s or are you actually Agnostic? Though the translation purity of a verse is a theist concern.
Might help to understand ‘where you’re coming from.’ and how to word replies.
Not if its too painful yet or you need to keep it secret for now.
B

Hi Frank. What you wrote just reminded me of Rev 12:16, “But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from it’s mouth…” Here is the WT explanation from Grand climax book: “The earth” – elements within Satan’s own system of things – began to swallow up “the river” or “flood.” …the Witnesses gained a series of favourable decisions in the US Supreme Court, and from ruling powers in some other lands…In this way, earth has provided sufficient relief to allow God’s work to spread to more then 200 lands…”

Rats! My last post didn’t materialise!! Now what did I say? Um. Yes..remember the WT says that the angels are leading the preaching work? (Rev 14:6) If so, then why seek help from men? Angels are stronger than men aren’t they? Perhaps the WT “good news” isn’t supported by angels at all. If the UN is the “beast”, “full of blasphemous names”, that WT says it is, then it shouldn’t have anything to do with it. They could be said to be “riding” it! (If the UN is not the beast, then perhaps that would be different.) However, according to the WT, Jehovah will use the UN to carry out “his one thought”, to destroy false religion. Could he use it as an instrument to enable the preaching work also? Your last sentence made me think of Judas Iscariot, and the pivotal role he played in the outworking of God’s purpose…Will he be rewarded? JWs say he is “in Gehenna”.

Dear All;
Woman-Man the conflict,
Eve upstaged her husband by taking the fruit first, this made her first to rebel. Celebrated in paganism by seniority of the Mother Goddess.
Genesis 3 is loaded with clues to the pagan structure and rebellion, if you remember that a lot is going on and verses may apply in multiple contexts, it is easier. Really.

Only a Woman;
Man is stronger, even for the same amount of muscle he generates more power, which is why he more often wishes to rest while females seem to potter on all day.
Man is more logical, reading maps, seeing implications and other meanings women miss.
But we all have seen it, Jill finds Jack the most attractive of boys. All the girls and women know this without a word being said.
Jack is trapped in fear of rejection he is sure she will give him. poor boy.

In time women can learn maps and routes and follow the logic which may not be instinctively theirs and the older men learn to notice the significance of a glance and listening,….er maybe?

Women read the social and emotional maps around them.

So there is a seniority, but inferior no.
Genesis 21 v 12, Proverbs 31 v 11.

A curse on women yes, but cursed not really. Why?
Because I suggest God caused the Human race to go into a Neoteny. A strange idea at first but makes sense of a lot.

Hi Rachel. The preaching work is God’s work, not the work of men; its authority issues from heaven. Of course, the forming of alliances is nothing new in Biblical history. Some apologists for this political meddling say that it is the same as Jehovah using Nebuchadnezzar and Joseph. This was so and who can question the will of Jehovah when HE personally uses men to accomplish his will.

However, when God gave his law through Moses, such alliances by the Israelite PEOPLE was made illegal and the nation suffered many times for forming political alliances. How different is it “God’s people” to make friends of “the world”? The WTBTS regularly quotes the UN convention to further its own preaching agenda and constantly requests the help of the OSCE to “free up” the preaching work in troubled areas of Europe.

Why did Jesus bother to state that a Christian must be prepared to be persecuted for his name’s sake if we have human organisations to alleviate this?

Where is the Biblical basis for CHRISTIANS to make alliances with Satan’s world?

Hi Reader. I agree that the book of Genesis as likely more a morality tale than genuine history may contain mankind in its neoteny, but the perennial issue of the claim of God’s moral superiority and even perfect objective morality is brought into question with the dilemma of whether he was cursing Eve or was simply prophesying consequences of sin.

As you will no doubt agree, apart from the legend of Amazonia, all human societies have been dominated by males throughout this historical veil of tears. Was this cynicism on God’s part not only make Eve pay dearly for her rebellion but also every woman who has ever existed?

If the answer is yes then how a woman should be treated is lost to us as we have no other measure by which calculate this equation. Actually even asking the question itself is patronising to women; physical ‘inferiority’ says nothing else about the fairer sex. The closest we have to what I believe is the correct answer are Enlightenment principles which have led us to Feminism and a superior modern existence for women.

What’s that? Christianity? Yes, that was an improvement, but could we say that a concept that by its definition keeps us constantly waiting for “the End” is an invitation to social, technological, and moral progress?

Dear Frank; copied this to Word and inserted comments.
Hi Reader. I agree that the book of Genesis as likely more a morality tale………
Comment: A morality tale is just that , good advice in general circulation, there probably isn’t a definition for Genesis 3 ‘s presentation of the Edenic account, which explains the basis of paganism, clues to what’s going on etc. and is referred back to many later times.
………. than genuine history [oh I am convinced it’s genuine history] may contain mankind in its neoteny, ………
Comment: Neoteny is an observed biological process, I just suggest it makes sense to see this as the mechanism behind Adam’s sons late but shortening spans and maybe also explains the why to childbirth pains.
……. but the perennial issue of the claim of God’s moral superiority and even perfect objective morality…….
Comment: Surely the Creator has more than just a ‘claim’ to moral superiority? As in Creating us he has to build our moral mental instincts into us, which I suggest makes our morality subjective.
……… is brought into question with the dilemma of whether he was cursing Eve or was simply prophesying consequences of sin………..
Comment: Good question answered by the statement of Jehovah about himself at Exodus 34 v 6,7
…………As you will no doubt agree, apart from the legend of Amazonia,………….
Comment: More than the Amazons, primitive paganism is thought to be originally female dominated, though only a few such groups lasted to be documented see “The Greek Myths” 1&2 by Robert Graves also “The White Goddess”
………….. all human societies have been dominated by males throughout this historical veil of tears. Was this cynicism on God’s part not only make Eve pay dearly for her rebellion but also every woman who has ever existed?………
Comment: Really yet the greatest monument to a single woman was built in a male dominated society the Taj Mahal. Men have done all sorts for love.
…. If the answer is yes then how a woman should be treated is lost to us…
Comment: Just Love her
……… as we have no other measure by which calculate this equation.
Actually even asking the question itself is patronising to women; physical ‘inferiority’ says nothing else about the fairer sex. The closest we have to what I believe is the correct answer are Enlightenment principles which have led us to Feminism and a superior modern existence for women…….
Comment: Song of Solomon.
Comment: Christian instructions on love.
Comment: The ‘Enlightenment’ where a group of people thought they knew better than all before them! It seems deciding that the struggles of Judeo-Christian and some other philosophies thought over the previous 2000 years, had actually been accomplished by themselves, before morning coffee.
……….What’s that? Christianity? Yes, that was an improvement, but could we say that a concept that by its definition keeps us constantly waiting for “the End” is an invitation to social, technological, and moral progress?…………
Comment: If a usurper takes over a throne do you blame the exiled monarch for what happened?
Comment: Now William Tyndale and many others of his kind, broke the suffocating power of the Church and collectively got the Bible to the ordinary man. Ordinary men became literate. Ordinary men began to change things. Industrial revolution began which led ultimately to the present wealthy status of mankind. Literacy is now a human right.
Comment: NOW THAT REALY WAS AN ENLIGHTENMENT!
Not to mention all the persons who worked to improve people’s lot, driven by their Bible beliefs in the 19th century.
B
Popular thought is also claims FDS

Hi Reader. This is a lot to reply to, but thanks for your trouble. Here’s something to be going on with:

What basis is there in the material world that not just the STORY of Adam and Eve but, in fact, ANYTHING in the Old Testament is true? Can you produce ANY archaeological evidence of the Israelite wilderness trek? How about the existence of Abraham? Joseph? How about Moses?

On what basis do you believe the God of the OT to be perfect in moral objectivity (Divine Command Theory)? Is murder, for instance, wrong? If so why do we see a pile of bodies of men women and children piled up in the Canaanite Wars that were directly commanded by God(Can you prove these ever happened?) Like the Eve dilemma, hasn’t religion taken its cue from the OT and based their ‘holy wars’ on this paradigm?

All I was saying was that a person would need to be atheistic to appreciate the full contribution women can make to the human experience. Human history is replete with the degradation of women’s rights through male dominated religion. They have largely been baby factories and pretty pieces of furniture until, though their own efforts, we discovered they actually had brains. This is why I don’t think secularism or science came about via religion, I believe they came about DESPITE religion. The Dark Ages were exactly what the Age of Enlightenment freed us from.

I am a theistic agnostic because science to date cannot explain the origins of life, especially where genetical information comes from. I do however accept much of the atheistic argument.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society showed me the light, though not in the way they might wish. For instance, the WTBTS tells “Satan’s world” that it has an “aggressive child protection policy” while sending an elders’ letter (2012) for them to instruct the faithful that as parents they are entirely responsible for the security of their own children. If powerful people believe that their bad theology comes from God, then let them live with their own delusion. I hate this lying and hypocrisy.

Gonzalo Campo’s paedophilia is only the latest episode in this tale of sorrows(JW Survey) and he will certainly not be the last. It’s one thing telling congregants that they live in a spiritual paradise is fine if the mistake is acknowledged and replaced with a more pragmatic system, but to fail to acknowledge the existence of such examples of fallen humanity puts innumerable Witness in children in the future at grave risk.

William Tyndale, Reader, and his enlightened ilk, were like the few Christians who joined the secular reformers of slavery – they did it because their consciences demanded change, not because they had any superior idea of what was moral.

If the Bible was such a clear instruction to mankind regarding moral right and wrong, why is there such confusion about what it actually says?

Why did N.T. Wright refer to Paul as a “Christian philosopher”?

Obviously the WTBTS couldn’t be accused of harbouring Humanist principles due their indifference to the rights of the children in their midst. How can God be using such an organisation despite their having the monopoly on the organised world-wide preaching work?

Yes, I am a theistic agnostic, but I have an open mind and am ready to be proved wrong. To date I am still safe atop my fence with neither inclination to one side or the other.

Dear Frank;
The trouble with sitting on the fence is it can severely damage your bum.
Is “theistic agnostic” a WT induced condition?
That is by the education you have received already, because many WT critics have been educated by WT.

Maybe the raising of GB to semi-divine status as FDS, has moved them above normal human interaction of -You’ve got this wrong! Feeding on its own rhetoric, it blunders onward nobody can stop the demigods.

It is uncorrectable and no method exists for r&f to even try.

Frustrating.

Sad.

But at the same time have you allowed for the Devil’s input?
Some say its easier to prove ‘a devil’ than ‘a God’.

If you don’t allow for the Devil you in effect see Scripture or History only in a polarized form.

The Morality of Humanity was noted by Paul, Romans 2 v 13 to 15.
It is true there are times when we need a little guidance on right and wrong, often because we don’t see all implications; But for the most part its instinctive and self running.
This inbuilt system makes no sense in evolutionary survival terms, its a piece of God within.

Having been given a morality chip, and a self aware chip, to use modern parlance, “what should we DO about it”, besets us as a question.

Actually, Reader, you stated your ‘logic traps.’ These only work if a person takes the latest GB delusion seriously. Most thinking Witnesses will ‘accept’ the teaching while reserving their individual right not to believe if there is insufficient evidence.

Yo Frank; the above statement is an oxymoron and I disagree. How can anyone “accept” a teaching while at the same time “reserve their individual right not believe”? If they don’t believe the teaching then how can they accept it – thinking Witness or not? It’s like I tell JW’s the same thing about their “new truth” theology that covers up their WT mistakes. “If it’s a new truth, then that would mean the old truth was not truth at all, but a lie, because there is no such thing as an “old truth”. Either it’s truth, or it’s not – same principal here: either you accept it as “truth” or if you choose not to believe because of “insufficient evidence”, then basically you can not say I “reserve the right” because in a sense they are waiting for a “new truth” incase the “present truth” turns out to be a lie. Therefore, with my in-laws being strict “rank-and-file” witnesses, they don’t understand this concept unless I back them into a corner and even then, they’ll fight me like a wild animal that’s backed into that corner. They know there’s a problem, but their conditioning tells them otherwise – hence “re-programing their mind is at times exhausting”.

Hi Bruno! What you describe here is “cognitive dissonance”. Dissonant means unharmonious, incongruent. I liken it to trying to push togther the negative ends of two magnets. The ideas push against each other! That is the kind of fight that goes on in our brains, with much of WT teaching. You either have to switch off, go insane, or leave!

Hi Franky…What can I say? I’m getting a bit lost in/with the discussion! There have been topics on the forum talking about slavery, the killing of even children and babies, etc.I see Christian morality as being God’s standard….It is much higher than that of the OT…and unachievable for us as imperfect humans.In the OT I wonder if God worked along with man’s debased condition…legislating what we today consider as unenlightened practices. Maybe he did things in accord with their “hard heartedness” in those times. What was the topic again?

Thanks for your contribution Reader. I like that you argue at times for the doctrines of the WTBTS. It’s funny, I heard in a debate atheist Stephen Law state: “We have to tell children over and over and over again that they must refuse to be indoctrinated!” I think the audience got the irony.

It’s like another speaker who asked the audience: “Put your hand up if you never respond to surveys.”

Rachel, I have heard the theory that the God of the OT was simply mirroring the ancient people’s morality (fighting fire with fire). However, how then can an enlightened educated and sceptical 21st century generation pronounce that God to be perfect in objective morality (Deuteronomy 32:3,4)? Are his ways not higher than ours?

One of the confusions occurs in whether one of the Ten Commandments states that it is killing that is objectively wrong or murder. Obviously killing is “legalised” in the Bible because there an awful amount of it, much commanded by God himself!

There will always be members of any generation who are free from blame for sin – children and babies; yet just as these became victims of ancient atrocities mentioned in the OT, again at Armageddon, Jesus (WT teaching) himself on his white horse will do the same!

When Christopher Hitchens says that Christianity is a cult of child sacrifice, how can anyone argue against that based on the evidence?

Hi Frank…all interesting stuff! Those atheist speakers were quite witty! Fortunately, I refuse to believe the WT teaching on Armageddon. Do you ever watch Loui Thereaux? He visited Johannesburg to see how they handle crime, with so much corruption. The residents of a very poor selttlement thought nothing of chasing down a thief and beating him to death with sticks. They just did it, and got on with their day.

Hi Rachel, I’m a big fan of Louis Theroux, not so much of his early stuff, but when his subject matter matured (American Paedophile prison, America’s most hated family etc) I find it so much more interesting.

Perhaps it’s the intrusion of human “wisdom” in interpreting the Bible that makes God out to be such a poor example of morality, but logic tells me that if he is infinite in wisdom, power, justice, and love, then he must also have infinite choices to reconcile mankind to himself. If this is the case, why has this “perfectly loving God” chosen a method that is ultimately detrimental to the “objects of his love”?

If we took the OT God’s example of morality (attempted genocide, child murder etc) and translated it to a human, would that individual be deserving of death? Could we honestly understand such a person beyond what we know about psychopaths? After all, even Hitler loved Aryan children.

I keep hearing the theist phrase, “God must have sufficient moral reason for his actions.” Fine, but if we reason that God merely wanted to preserve the Messianic genetic line and keep it pure, then isn’t this eugenics?

I’m not comparing God to Hitler, I’m just asking how we can differentiate between the worldviews. I know there’s are answers, but no Christian has even attempted a sensible answer yet. All I get is Divine Mystery, “Leave it to God,” and “God gave life, so he can take it,” replies. None of these answers attempts to explain the morality of the actions. And it’s important to get an answer because, as the WTBTS’s indifference towards the safety of the children even within its own ranks, such ‘biblical’ morality impinges upon how this generation thinks and, more importantly – acts (or doesn’t).

Hi Frank. Eugenics isn’t evil. Unfortunately the only examples we have of people attempting it have been so despicably evil that it’s difficult to have another opinion.

In regards to children, we have a culture that prizes them as innocent and beyond reproach. I don’t personally see them as more, or less, valuable than adults. If someone innocent, adult or child, faces severe trial or death, it is equally tragic. Perhaps you impose a supposition that adults are more likely to deserve suffering because they are more likely to have a history of sinful behavior?

The inference that God’s motives seem psychotic because of circumstances that clash with very modern ideas of chivalry seem short-sighted. The value modern courts place on children borders on worship and won’t likely last out the century. Eventually rational people will see them as merely human again and their rights will be adjusted.

The idea that “this “perfectly loving God” [has] chosen a method that is ultimately detrimental to the “objects of his love””, assumes a far higher value for human rights than could be expected from the scriptures’ examples. He is not our Genie. We are His servants, and we only exist to bring glory to Him. In post 107 of this thread you explain to Rachel “…what a wrench it is for some to dismiss what they once held so dear…” Unless you can put yourself in the shoes of someone who has dismissed the value of their life and personal freedoms for the benefit God’s preferences, then true Christian thinking my be beyond your immediate understanding (though I suppose it isn’t too dissimilar from a patriot soldier’s loyalty).

I am aware that what I’ve written comes across as argumentative, so let me please beg your forgiveness and ask for your tolerance. I enjoy your posts very much and am looking forward to your rebuttal. I would not bring such a challenge to someone who couldn’t give me what for in return. I’m opening up a discussion, and I’m not intending an argument or insult in any way. Let me reiterate for double clarity– we are friends and I’m glad to have you posting here, willing to consider these points.

Hi Frank…Thanks for correcting my spelling! Lol! At least I made an effort! I don’t have all the answers either. If logic tells you God is infinite in wisdom, then it can be guaranteed He has chosen the wisest way to remedy mankinds situation. It is what it is, whether we like it or not. The WTBTS also has seeming indifference to the billions they expect to die at Armageddon. How enlightened is that? and they call that “righteous”?And “Christian”?(I guess that is what you have been saying.) I remember: “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”, and Satan has “been misleading the ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH”. that’s you and me too, my friend!

Rachel, so all you can give me is the “divine mystery”/”God must have sufficient moral reason” argument, then?

The reason why I became agnostic, though theistically-inclined by my upbringing, was because ultimately I saw that Christians tend to compartmentalise their Christ-like personality. Their values were conditional whether money, ego, or power were being threatened at any given time.

When someone steps away from the mental and emotional conditioning of a religious organisation, our minds start working (expanding) again. Like many, I now judge the WTBTS by ALL the evidence, not just what they want me to hear. Unfortunately for Christianity, when looking back down through history, when one is in possession of ALL the facts, one is left scratching one’s head how any 21st century human can accept many of the extraordinary claims of the Bible.

However, my mind remains open – and so is the challenge. Does God and religion have a champion or is that it?

I am happily married to a theistically inclined agnostic! I would describe my husband as a very very honest man. Perhaps the most honest answer a person can give is “I don’t know”. I could give you the reasons why I believe the way I do, but most likely you wouldn’t believe me anyway! Let’s just say, I choose faith…In the God of the Bible, not necessarily as he is portrayed there in human terms. I can’t prove what I have faith in, without a shadow of a doubt, that’s why it is faith. I wonder if some doubt is required in order to have faith. Maybe some of the extraordinary claims of the bible wouldn’t seem that extraordinary if you were there at the time,eg. the 10 plagues being explained as natural occurences. If they were that extraordinary you would think all of Egypt would have left with Moses. Sorry, I am not as good as you at finding the right words to express myself!

Are you familiar with atheist arguments? To me, true faith is one that is tested to its greatest degree. What I have notice with many ‘faithful Christians’ is that they will either go quiet or simply get abusive when I pose my morality questions. Your intelligence betrays you! You are tolerant, and people like you are too few in number. JJ has me baffled too.

Actually, to be honest, I’ve been thrown off sites for my ‘honesty.’ Such forthrightness is often, I think, purposefully ‘misconstrued’ as ‘disrespect.’ This is what passes for Christian intellectualism today. I admire your willingness actually to admit you don’t know the answers to my questions. At the risk of sounding sexist, I think women are likely to do this because males have their ego to deal with. I am deliberately antagonistic, because I believe this kick-starts lazy brains.

Congratulations, you have seen through me.

Your point about choice to believe in God is thought-provoking too. Dinesh D’Souza, a Christian apologist, says faith should come before ‘all the data comes in.’ Yes, I agree, but so far I have found no firm foundation to start building my ‘faith’ again. Without any reason to believe the God of the Bible as basically good in any way I can define, I would be building my house upon the sand.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no champion for God or the Bible up to the challenge.

Hi Frank. I won’t give up on you. I see in you a “burning fire” for justice, in your passionate arguments! That had to come from somewhere. I think faith requires a foundation, but it is something more than just belief. Maybe this sounds a little naive, or even delusional, but I choose to have faith and be happy, rather than be miserable until I have all the answers! In case you’re interested, I’ve never felt disrespected by you, so thankyou for that! Although when you were wanting my JH recording, I think I may have called you a shark!! Lol!!

Frank, I was only talking about myself. I know a lot of people who say they have faith and are totally miserable…like I was in the WTBS! My husband is quite happy with his views. I respect the choice he has made to have his views. I can understand why he has those views. (When he came with me to my JH I told the elders he has a hundred GOOD reasons why he has not got involved with religion.) He respects mine too. I do have a theology, believe me, one that satisfies me intellectually, spiritually and emotionally. Notice I said ME. It has a basis of reason in my opinion. I don’t know if you are unhappy because I don’t really know you do I? But I do wonder why you are on this site!

Well said, Rachel. Later after thinking about it, I drew the same conclusion that you meant you. The reason why I initially became sensitive to what you said, was that when an elder or rank-and-file JW comes to you with that ‘Village of the Damned’ staring but caring eyes and the attachable ‘Kingdom smile,’ the instant conclusion they draw is that the escapee is ‘spiritually sick’ or is demon-possessed; anything other than that the ‘victim’ has made an honest study of what they been led to believe.

And believe me, there is no greater sense of revelation than when one takes a few steps back to reveal the WT in all its glory – not just the story that is taught.

When they open the mass graves of the relgiously and culturally disenfranchised in the future clearly you and you loved ones will not be there – this is to your credit.

Love your descriptions Frank! Lol! Thankyou, I will accept your compliment! (I think) I was just thinking that even Jesus had to say “I don’t know”. (Mt 24:36) The angels too. However,they didn’t seem to be frustrated by this.

Hi Rachel. Faith, though, is a trap. I’m left wondering why you are reluctant to answer my question about what’s replaced the well-structured theology of the WTBTS you once espoused.

None of us wants to be caught by the naive persuasions of the eccentric. I’m sure those who committed suicide in the Heaven’s Gate community genuinely believed their souls were going to be transferred to a space ship following the Hale-Bopp comet.

Bit silly? Probably, but can you prove this didn’t happen?

If we see Christianity differently, is it because of its 2000-year provenance? The Resurrection? The willingness for humans to die for what they believe is right, perhaps?

Here’s one definition of faith:

faith
[feyth]
noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

Could Jesus, who had his origin in heaven alongside Jehovah deny that God would do the things He said he would do? If not, was the question posed in your Scriptural citation a matter of faith?
Likewise the angels?

Is it different for humans? Well, we’re surrounded by a cacophony of claims to be God’s Elect, are treated to acts of terrorism for the crime of not being willing to believe, and have a much better explanation for the natural world coming from human science. Don’t you think faith sounds just a tinsy bit naive in the 21st century, Rachel?

On the other hand, Rachel, I can understand what a wrench it is for some to dismiss what they once held so dear at one time. A belief system, particularly Christianity, is tied up with our emotions. It becomes part of our self-identity and when it’s gone,it feels like someone has disembowelled us.

It’s never happened to me, but I can imagine what it’s like finding out that the parents once though to be our own suddenly reveals that you had been adopted.

This is why powerful memes (culturally-evolving ‘facts’ that we believe) remain part of our thinking. Christianity gives us no option because we are taught that our future is tied up with willingness to accept its precepts.

But I have an open mind while the origin of life remains a blank for science.

Hi Frank, I’m not the intellectual you are, but I am an observer. I came up with my own definition of faith for a simpleton like me…It is belief when there is reason for doubt. (Unlike WT that wants to prove everything) Everyone wants to prove that what they have faith in, is true…which makes anyone that thinks differently, wrong. (That leads to what someone I was talking to recently called tribalism!) I gave myself permission to have doubt, to have unanswered questions. Also, I do not feel I have to prove anything to anyone. To be brutally honest, I don’t think I could function properly without faith, and be a productive and happy human being. Maybe you see that as a weakness but I see it as an intelligent choice, for me. Yes, I am reluctant to share my theology. Nice talking to you though!

Then, Rachel, it seems I am born to destruction. As a member of the autistic community I can deal neither with abstracts nor with emotional appeals. On what then do I begin my search culminating in my return to the arms of Christ?

I understand metaphor, parody, irony, but my obsession is trying to understand how religion holds so much power over the emotionally needy minds of those who feel there has to be something beyond the material universe. Isn’t that enough to be going on with?

I have no great education beyond my daily attempts at new discovery, but analysis is how my brain works. Actually I was the one who raised the spectre of religion as tribalism. That’s how it seems to me when the powerful try to squeeze humanity’s ability to think individually into an army that must hand over its conscience and will to the elite.

It surprises me you will not give me your Christian message (1Peter 3:15) but perhaps you’re afraid I will debate that too. I probably will, so I will accept my fate. Don’t feel bad; you’re not the first to hold up the white flag and you won’t be the last.

It surprises me you will not give me your Christian message (1Peter 3:15) but perhaps you’re afraid I will debate that too. I probably will, so I will accept my fate. Don’t feel bad; you’re not the first to hold up the white flag and you won’t be the last.————————

Goodness Frank your out to undermind a really lovely person here. Your once again try
ing to get into another mind to upset the balance of another sister.

Hi Frank. I think you misunderstand me! Did you think I was criticising you when I called you intellectual? It was actually a compliment. And by calling myself a simpleton, I was just recognising and admitting that I do not think myself to be any cleverer, or any stupider,(for that matter), than the next person. I recognise all humans have ability to think and I respect that. And I respect their opinions. I’m sorry you interpreted what I said as extreme reaction….I can’t think what you mean by that. Perhaps you understood my “nice talking to you though” as a “I’m done with you”. Frank, I actually meant what I said, ie. “It’s nice talking to you”. I actually like you. You feel passionately about justice as I do. When I mentioned tribalism I actually had in mind an ex-catholic priest “trainee” I was talking to a few weeks back, who gave up the church because of it. Now he is like you, a theistic agnostic, and I understand and appreciate that. We had a really interesting talk about quantum mechanics. He is a scientist. (I would love to be able to understand that stuff).The good thing about my “theology” is that I do not at all view you as born to destruction. But I don’t know if you really are interested. As you are aware all types of people visit this site, with all sorts of ideas. I don’t see this site as the place to promote my own ideas as if only I could be right. I am ever aware of promoting “sectarianism”. What purpose would that really serve? My theology in a nutshell is, “Now is not the time to know. In the meantime, be a good neighbour”. Simple. It may be wrong…but still a good motto to live by.

Hi Ruth. If you are the WT apologist Ruth that occasionally drops in with the hopes of inoculating the unwary against my ‘atheism,’ congratulations at your admiration for Rachel, who has recently been declared an unrepentant apostate. We need more tolerant and non-judgemental people like you.

Hi Rachel. First I must make an acknowledgment. I hadn’t realised that Ruth had intruded upon our conversation. I should have realised you are made of stronger stuff and have questioned why you would have written as I thought you had. I apologise.

That said, if a Christian said to me that their message was: “Believe on the Lord Jesus and You will be saved” I would read this statement as meaningless. To me as an autistic person it would be like going into a car lot, paying $20,000 for a new car, being handed a steering wheel, and then being told that the rest of the car will arrive at sometime in the unforeseen future. Under these circumstances, at least a few frustrated questions would be asked, probably followed by a phone call to the police with an accusation of fraud.

As you might note, my approach is not so much intellectual as analytical. I take heart when you express that you are not in any way solipsistic in your approach and you have the humility both to admit when you don’t know something and you are prepared to accept new ideas. I appreciate this.

Your ex-priest friend has some very notable interests. Einstein, the first to till the soil on quantum science, eschewed the thought that “God would play dice” with the universe. This was because he wanted the predictable Newtonian universe to remain mechanical and mathematically workable. However, when trying to understand the very unpredictable sub-atomic workings of matter, it became plain that, while all worked perfectly together, mankind was a long way off finding a simple equation to describe it all – called the TOE (Theory of Everything). E=MC2 had its limits. Notes were found by his deathbed showing that he was still working on this equation.

It is interesting to that your friend has become an agnostic. Most people see God in the detail and Quantum Physics is a good place to hide. The reality though is that the universe itself is unpredictable. According to physicist Lawrence Krauss a star goes supernova once every second. So it is merely an illusion that the universe can only create. Add to this the fact that our own sun, by understood physics, must burn out in 5 billion years. Obviously the Bible writers wrongly thought that Earth was eternal. Nice try, but now we know better.

But may I ask you a question?

What do you think is the practical use of faith in coming to know the Creator?

Hi Frank, Earlier today I spent two hours formulating a very personal response to your query on 1st Peter 3:15, and the ether took it away to the land of zombies and ghosts when I hit “submit reply”. I was a little ticked, but mostly just despondent after that. So then I took up another matter elsewhere on this thread, just to get my mind off of the subject, and that one too was eaten by the ether monsters. I quickly typed posts #114 and #115 in succession just to see if my computer was working. I was even worried that I might have been kicked off this site. Anyway, that’s all that that was about. Thanks for asking, Frank, and I’ve been enjoying your comments. I’ll retry posting my answer to your queries tomorrow.

Staying on Quantum physics, physicist Carl Sagan once mused that even after 2,000 years, even travelling at the fastest known universal speed of the speed of light (186,000,000 mps), Jesus returning to heaven would mean that he hasn’t yet reached further than our solar system.

This is a scientific fact, therefore whatever spirit is it is not of the material universe. Matter carries mass and if any mass can go even close to the speed of light then it becomes infinitely heavy making a material existence highly unlikely. The Scriptures say that Earth was made for mankind, science cannot contradict this based on its known facts.

As you will know, Ernest Lord Rutherford’s model of the atom contains far more space that physicality. If we break open a rock our senses tell us that it is dense, heavy, and solid. It is not a human construct that this is so, but these properties result from the vibration of the force-fields between the protons, electrons, and nucleus of each atom.

I wonder what Jesus’ form took after his death that allowed him to walk through walls, change his appearance, and ascend ‘bodily’ into heaven; or even if the word ‘form’ is applicable here.

The most striking thing about the discovery of quantum science is that it shows that at least 2 parallel universes (mechanical and energy) can exist in the same time and space. Though in its infancy, could this discipline be making God’s presence more likely rather than simply create another mystery? What appears contradictory DOES work in harmony though the human mind struggles to understand how.

Hi Frank. apology accepted. Interesting and exciting stuff you are talking about here. My husband and I watch any documentaries on TV and find it so fascinating. I told him once I thought the universe might be donut shaped…then I saw that some scientists actually consider that a possibility, along with a million other things. Who named Earth “Earth”? Could earth just be any planet capable of sustaining life as we know it? I tend to think so. It’s funny to think that most of what we think we see isn’t actually there. It seems obvious that “spirit” is outside the physical, but can it exist in the same place at the same time? Is “place” (or even “time”)even a relevant word when talking about spirit? You asked me if faith is practical…I can only speak for myself obviously. Mine has made me more tolerant, less proud, and therefore happier and nicer to be around. I used to be demanding, a perfectionist, and had an anger problem. How’s that for honesty! I’d say that’s quite practical, but probably not the sort of answer you’re after! I’m sure droid will make some interesting additions to the science discussion.

Hi Rachel. My question was more along the line of what function faith has in coming to know the Creator. The controversial thing about faith is the thin line between it and credulity. Few put faith in the existence of intelligent life on other planets, mostly because of the vast distances needed to be travelled to get here for corporeal alien life. Still thousands of reports come in every year of UFOs and alleged abductions. Science can now explain these, but many still watch the skies…in faith.

What I would like your view on is why we need faith when God could have reconciled us in much less expensive and less destructive ways to mankind. As Christopher Hitchens so famously put it: God created us sick and then demanded we be well. According to Bible prophecy most of Earths population, past and present, are due for the skeleton-making process and are given the worst possible environment in which to come to know him. I obviously have trouble with the concept of this being a God of perfect morality; tent pegs in king’s heads, orders to skewer the children of Canaan, righteous people offering their daughters for rape by a maniac crowd, 6,000 years of agony for the crime of eating fruit aimed at the progeny of the criminals, first-born children dead because instructions were not followed, entire economies decimated, plague, drought, dead babies for the crimes of their parents, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, religious hatred and question after question about what on earth is going on! I don’t mean to be unnecessarily gloomy, but it is a legitimate question.

On the quantum science question, a trap that is set about parallel universes; one mustn’t forget that the same information could demonstrate the existence of a multiverse that would negate the need for a creator. Here’s how:

Infinity is not a property of the universe. It is finite, expanding, and apparently has a shelf-life. If we use pi, for instance, simply adding 3.14 to a previous number merely makes a human construct of infinity. While the equation is useful for many reasons, the action of endlessly adding 3.14 only has interest in the minds of humans. The law of thermodynamics, or entropy, guarantees that everything from a rusting car to an exploding star demonstrates that, as Eckhart Tolle once said, “all structures are unstable.”

But wait! There is one property of the universe that is infinite – in a sense – energy! Energy is the smallest ‘building block’ in the universe. One cannot create nor destroy energy, only convert it – E=MC2 means energy equals mass times the speed of light times 186,000 miles per second. The Manhattan Project used this science in a destructive way.

It is quite possible that a property of energy external to the universe is infinite and randomly creates universes. Science fiction? Yes, presently unprovable and we’re stuck with String Theory as the closest to a TOE.

I guess what’s at stake here is that no human wants to squander the possible single chance of existence, especially when it’s 1 in 350,000,000! If God truly wants “all to attain to repentance” and be saved, one might have desired less ambiguity in announcing his existence.

Hi Frank.
Hi Rupunzel.
Serious headache today. I’ll get around to retrying that super-long post– this time in smaller blocks. I’m on aspirin #30 right now, so I’m not up to the challenge yet.
FYI, light speed will get you to Pluto in about three hours, and the farthest edge of our solar system where objects other than nearby stars are influenced by the Sun’s gravity is about two light years out, not two thousand. Check ask.com for confirmation on the distance to some of the nearest stars: Alpha Centari; 4 light years– Sirius; 8.6– Vega and Wolf 359 are pretty close, too. There are MILLIONS of stars within a 2000 light year radius.

“The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its value is exactly 299,792,458 metres per second, a figure that is exact because the length of the metre is defined from this constant and the international standard for time.[1] Its value is about 186,282 miles per second in imperial units. According to special relativity, c is the maximum speed at which all energy, matter, and information in the universe can travel.”

Wikipedia, Speed of Light

“A light-year, also light year or lightyear (symbol: ly), is an astronomical unit of length equal to just under 10 trillion kilometres (or about 6 trillion miles).[note 1] As defined by the International Astronomical Union (IAU), a light-year is the distance that light travels in a vacuum in one Julian year.[1]

The light-year is mostly used to express distances to stars and other distances on a galactic scale, especially in non-specialist and popular science publications. The preferred unit in astrometry is the parsec (approximately 3.26 light-years), because it can be more easily derived from, and compared with, observational data.[1]

Note that the light-year is a measure of distance. It is not a measure of time, for which it is sometimes mistaken.”

I was noting your opening statement in post #119. Everything you wrote above is entirely true. However, if Jesus left our solar system at light speed, it would’ve taken two years to leave the portion from which the gravitational influence of the Sun affects objects other than other stars (ergo, the space that defines our solar system).
That must be a misquote from Carl Segan. Or Carl Segan was a complete idiot. I actually think that Segan had an extraordinary amount of FAITH in the god of CHANCE. He believed there is intelligent life around every third star, a statement not support by either observation or rational prediction.
As a scientist, I am firm believer in probability as described by the philosophy of the scientific method. Probability doesn’t allow for something as complicated as humans to evolve within a timeframe shorter than 120 billion years, and the Universe is only 13.7 billion years old. Not only does intelligent life outside of our world not exist, I’m skeptical that WE are even here to debate the matter. (haha)
Anyway, I gave you references to check with in my previous post: our solar system is FAR smaller than the 2000 light year diameter as suggested by your statement in post #119. I just fell short of getting my doctorate in astronomy when I got a job offer in Hollywood 15 years ago. I know what I’m talking about and I will not budge on this matter.
I DO think that Segan was an idiot, but even if he was drunk and had been shot in the leg and had a midget dressed as a clown screaming obscene limericks at him, there’s no way that he could make a mistake like that about the size of our solar system. Are you sure he wasn’t describing the speed of the Voyager probe, which was the first object we sent out at escape velocity of the Sun’s gravity?

Einstein stated that nothing can even travel close to the speed of light, though it’s controversial if gravity does. The point I was making was that humanity, if able to attain such speeds (barring Star Trek), it would likely have a detrimental effect.

My agnosticism is based on the ambiguous effects of universal properties. Evolution, for instance, teaches that humans came from a propitious universe that first created the conditions for life in its variety and thus life formed. Creation teaches that the Earth was created with the life so as to sustain it. Facts available to us could be interpreted either way. That the origin of cellular information is still a mystery means only that the Creation theory is a tautology dependent on the hearer accepting certain claims. Science takes a far humbler position and says, “Wait, and one day we’ll know the answers.”

A sceptical generation requires proof (“a sign”), or at least convincing evidence, such as archaeological, that even for miracle claims, before it is prepared to commit to anything outside the known realm. Failing this that evidence exists for any of the Bible characters as they appear in the Bible.

Perhaps not incidentally, the Epicureans around Paul’s time were actually an apostasy from the original teachings of Epicurus who lived at least 2 centuries before. The fact that the Bible implies that Epicureanism is equal to hedonism shows that the writers were not party to everything.

In December 2012, a research team in China announced that it had produced measurements of the phase lag of Earth tides during full and new moons which seem to prove that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light. The team’s findings were published in the Chinese Science Bulletin in February 2013.
This vindicates Einstein’s instinct when formulating his general theory of relativity, which was to assume that the speed of gravity was equal to the speed of light.

Hi Rachel. Thanks for the information. It’s great when we get confirmation and proof of something. If that’s what proves true then we are wise to accept. When it comes to claims of miracles, resurrections, and suns standing still, should we accept such claims without evidence lest we be deemed by religion as being without faith?

Again, what is the function of faith? Are we not better off waking up every morning and giving our full appreciation to every non-returnable to the full and basing our knowledge on what is known rather than focusing on a future that has no real evidence of ever happening?

Hi Droid. Thanks for your observations in your answer to #125. You are right except that you didn’t pick out that I also got the speed of light wrong by adding 3 extra noughts! I write down great observations from great people and Carl Sagan is definitely one of them. Here is the source from which I got my information in full, and you’ll note that while I got at least one additional fact wrong, the point I was making was spot on. Here’s the quote:

““Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” – Carl Sagan

“A friend of mine before he died was named Carl Sagan. He was a great American astrophysicist. Carl Sagan was a fascinating man, he was Jewish by his ethnic background. He was a militant atheist by his religious persuasion. But he was a funny kind of atheist. He’s the kind of atheist who seemed to talk about God all the time. I called him a God-intoxicated atheist. He also enjoyed puncturing the simplistic mind-set of people who literalise all religious stories. We were on a conference staff together in Washington DC two years before he died, and he saw me and he came bounding across the room, and he said, ‘Jack, have you ever thought of what the ascension of Jesus looks like to an astrophysicist?’ I said, ‘No, Carl, I haven’t thought about that a great deal, but I knew I was going to have to.’…In any event, Carl began to talk. We live in a space age. He said, “Do you know that if Jesus literally ascended into the sky, and if he travelled at the speed of light, a hundred and eighty-six thousand miles per second, he hasn’t yet escaped our galaxy.” And then is his Saganesque way, he said, ‘And our galaxy one of billions and billions and billions of galaxies. I thought he was going to have a religious experience.

But you see, Carl Sagan is right, we can’t literalise that story (the ascension of Jesus) and have it make sense to people who live in a space age.”

– (Bishop) John Selby Spong in debate with William Lane Craig

So you see, Droid, the point I was making was valid, but because I didn’t check my facts, I confused solar system with galaxy. Whether Sagan was ‘searching’ or not, he validly points out that the way the Bible is written is not so we can unquestioningly accept what it says literally.

Your point about evolution: Do you then accept the story of the talking snake and the mischievous scrumping expedition? I am fully prepared to accept your findings in this matter, but use Occam’s Razor and decide based on what is more likely based on the evidence presently available.

Hi Frank…I fully agree with what you say: he (Sagan) validly points out that the way the Bible is written is not so we can unquestioningly accept what it says literally. Also: Are we not better off waking up every morning and giving our full appreciation to every non-returnable to the full and basing our knowledge on what is known rather than focusing on a future that has no real evidence of ever happening? Of course we should live and enjoy life now to the best of our ability, but not close our minds to the possibilities….because we don’t know. My enjoyment of life is enhanced, enriched by my beliefs. Even if they turn out to be delusional, at least it’s a happy “delusion”, one that I have chosen. (Not that I believe that, but just saying) Perhaps you will have to experience a miracle.

I can’t believe the “sun stood still” literally. The universe is a constantly evolving thing …It has to be. If it stood still we wouldn’t be here to even question it. The question about the garden of Eden, whether it is literal(as in the trees, fruit, snake) or not, is a good one. I don’t know. Jesus referred to it, as did other bible writers, but that doesn’t rule out it being metaphorical (or symbolic) does it? Mmmmm

Hi Frank. Thanks for your response. I am far from being a Fundamentalist who takes a literal approach to scripture. Even the list of names in the genealogy of Genesis chap. 5 seems to have a symbolic significance, as seven generations are listed from Cain’s lineage and seven from Seth’s, while at the same time the names bare striking similarity to each other generation by generation.
Even half the numbers mentioned seem to have more symbolic than literal meaning.

I do believe that Jesus was a real person and also the son of God. I don’t worry too much about the philosophical implications of that. Jesus described ethics that were appropriate to find God’s favor and that remains my main concern when reviewing scripture.

Segan was occasionally insightful, and I’m grateful for the way he made Science interesting to so many people through his NOVA program, but he was extremely biased about how he interpreted the religious mind. Did you see “Contact” with Jodie Foster? The bad guy was a zealous Christian who didn’t want the truth of aliens to be revealed because it would be damaging to Christian faith. Ridiculous! He called evolution a FACT with such fervor that I couldn’t even take him seriously as a fellow scientist after I got involved in the field. A great deal of his love of science was so strongly based on Faith, that I actually consider him to be a religious zealot of sorts. Evolution is a Model, not a Fact, and to state otherwise only shows bigotry. He knew his field, but only when it didn’t interfere with his Faith, so I have many severe criticisms of his work and writings. Can’t imagine why he would think that heaven is outside of the galaxy, or that Christians would think so, or that Jesus had get so far so fast. He must have thought of Jesus as an alien that can only occupy the same phase-frame that humans can.

There was a great movie with Jason Robards called “Inherit the Wind”, about that teacher who went on trial for teaching the premise of evolution in…uh…the late 1800s maybe. The poor priest who was defending the position of Creation was so flustered by the science that he knew nothing about that he ending up having a nervous breakdown even though he won his case. Reminds me of Segan. A LOT of scientists these days are religious and know both sides of the coin. Segan was too busy making insulting claims based on the most insubstantial knowledge to ever evaluate what he was fighting against.

I would’ve had a blast arguing with him just on what qualifies as legitimate Science.

Hi Rachel. Have you ever experienced a miracle? Perhaps magicians perform them, perhaps not. There is a character in The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky that wonders on his deathbed whether his life has all been wrong – that is what I had in mind.

Yes, the universal consequences to the human race for the creation of this solar time warp would have been devastating, but the believers tell us that it was a supernatural event. Occam’s Razor tells us that, as Einstein might have hypothesised, it is more likely that battle-weary soldiers experienced the apparent slowing or even stopping of time as the conflagration raged on. If you speed up at a traffic light, the amber light literally does ‘seem’ to wait for you to cross – relativity to speed, time and experiential perspective.

Jesus, as you know, was a Jew, and his recounting of this ‘history'(Adam and Eve, talking snake etc) to a Jew did not require it to be literal history, but rather having information about God and his relationship to man in the telling of it. This could be why we find no convincing archaeology in the Sinai Desert for the 40-year sojourn. There was no lie here, as it is the 21st century cynics that require that something to be true to be valid.

Hi Droid. I think that Sagan was the best kind of scientist, probably agnostic, and likely deist in how he expressed himsself. The point he was making that today if religionists want to pick and choose what is literal and what is not in the Bible, they must measure it against certain unassailable facts known about the universe.

Dawkins, I think, tends to be contradictory when he tells us he is an atheist on a scale of 1 to 7. I see this as saying one can have certain blood components but not whole blood, when the Bible says to abstain from blood. The word ‘abstain’ is like the word ‘atheist,’ absolute with no wriggle room or again, we have to make literal what we wish to fit our own worldview.

Sagan’s ‘obsession’ with the divine is the way it should be – open minded and ready, as all scientists should be (and, oddly, Dawkins agrees), open to accept a divine parallel universe should sufficient evidence arise. Most feel that faith is the domain of credulity. I tend to agree.

Thought I might have a look at his book, “Genesis and the Big Bang” by Gerald Schroeder (astrophysicist). Anyone read this? Also, arp7601 on youtube recommends a book called, “The Myth of Certainty” by Daniel Taylor. Yes, maybe.

Okay, here goes, but this isn’t going to be the story you were expecting. I’ll break it into segments, since I lost the whole thing last time. First off, I’m just as skeptical about stories like this as you are. When I hear some kooky zealot claim that Jesus healed their cancer, or made sure they got a job so they could keep their house, or got them home safe when the weather was bad and the traffic was crazy all I can think is that it could just as easily have been Chance. Most likely was. Don’t get me wrong; a Christian is grateful for the pleasures in life provided by God, but rain falls on the wicked as well as the righteous, so there’s nothing special about these stories, and they don’t prove a darn thing. My experiences, however, are a little different. Proof of the spirit world was opened up to me at a very young age for reasons that I can’t even begin to guess at. And it wasn’t God who revealed himself to me, it was a demon.

The first time this happened was when I was about ten years old. My immediate family were JWs, and I bought into all of the teachings about how we were ‘different’. I wasn’t exceptionally smart or interesting by any means, just an average kid, but I’ve been a trigger for horrendous demonic activity ever since then. (continued–)

So late one night I was sitting alone in the living room watching TV when an advertisement for that Spielberg movie “Poltergeist” came on. I wasn’t even looking at the screen. There was a sudden and overwhelming ‘presence’ with me in the room. I experienced a powerful feeling of terror while at the same time energy seemed to be draining out of me with shocking speed. I quickly made the connection between what was occurring on the TV and what was happening. There was no doubt in my mind that I was in the company of a demon or demons, so I moved quickly to turn the TV off. The ‘presence’ left as quickly as it had come and afterwards I was so drained that I could barely stand. My mom came charging down the stairs from the bathroom where she had been, looking just as startled as I must have looked. The ‘presence’ had made itself known throughout the house.

The fear that I had experienced wasn’t due to my being scared of what I’d seen on the TV; I didn’t even know there was something happening on the TV until I looked up. And since I wasn’t the only one in the house to feel it, it could only have come from outside of me.

I’m aware that this doesn’t prove anything about God yet, so bare with me for a few more posts. (continued–)

These ‘events’ happened with enough frequency after that that my mom and brother and I could almost joke about it after we got rid of the trigger. Usually, though, I was alone. It was ALWAYS caused by the TV. We never had anything in the house that Jehovah might consider spiritually unclean, except for what came through the television, and the trigger was invariably something to do with a program about spiritism, such as an advertisement for a movie like “The Shining”, or “The Ammityville Horror”. This alone should make it clear that certain spirits enjoy the kind of malevolence that such programming portrayed, and also that their power is limited to these short bursts of activity, during a period when, perhaps, a Holy presence would be offended and stopped providing protection. I should point out that the ‘presence’ was ALWAYS invisible and nothing ever flew around the room. Just a sudden and shocking terror accompanied by an incomprehensible energy drain.

When I was about 14 I was watching a TV show at my grandparents house called ‘Real People’. The host was interviewing people about strange green lights that had been seen around a local park at night. Only my grandpa was with me in the family room watching it and he wasn’t a JW. So eventually the host on the TV went looking for the green light. I knew better by this time to have anything to do with programs like this, but my curiosity got the better of me. I figured it would surely be a hoax of some kind, because that’s what was usually on that show. When the camera landed on a fuzzy green shape in the distance, the presence was there. I walked out of the room and let my grandpa watch the rest if he wanted to. It never occurred to me that someone other than a JW could feel that demon’s presence. But my grandpa DID feel it and said that it left when I did. He was actually angry at me. Stories had gone around the family about my ‘encounters’, but this was the first time someone other than me, my mom, or my brother (all JWs) had experienced it. I was glad after that that if I ever demanded that the channel be changed, no one argued. (continued–)

So these events have gone on for years. My roommate brought home ‘The Exorcist’ to watch one time, even though I had made it clear that stuff like that can’t be in the house with me. I was in my room, so I didn’t know he was watching it. I started to feel very uncomfortable in a way that was familiar to a demonic presence, so I got up to search around the apartment. When I entered the room where he was watching it, we both got hammered– I mean really laid out by that wicked spirit. I turned the TV off and my roommate moved out that night without ever speaking to me again. Not entirely true– we had a quiet discussion about the matter for maybe a half hour, and he collected his stuff over the following week. We parted amiably enough, but he never wanted to experience anything like that again, so never returned my calls.

The last time I encountered the ‘presence’ was almost ten years ago. An advert for ‘The Sixth Sense’ came on and the all too familiar terror and energy drain was there. I was pissed. I’m not brave or anything, but this one-trick-pony demon had been pulling the same gag on me over and over for 25 years. It’s like his sole purpose in life is to hide behind a door and scream “BOO” whenever someone lets their guard down. Before I got to the remote to change the channel I said out loud, fully aware that I was attempting to speak directly to a demon, “Don’t you have anything better to do?” Kinda proud of myself. My voice was just dripping with sarcasm.

I’m still very careful about what I allow on the TV, but I may have insulted him enough so that he wanted a better target after that. (continued–)

The only time I ever experienced a presence from the other side of the fence, i.e. Holy, was when I was being very deliberately corrected for making a blasphemous statement. I was out in service with an elder that I wasn’t particularly fond of, and I made a snide comment about what qualifies as ‘evil’ since his cliches were getting hard to bare. To be honest, he didn’t like me much either. Fair is fair. Anyway, our topic of conversation moved into conjecture about what role Spirit Creatures play in our lives, and I made a snide comment that I’m so embarrassed about that I won’t repeat it. I was immediately walloped with a strong feeling of Guilt. Capital G. The stunning power of the feeling reminded me so much of the demonic encounters that I’d had that I needed a moment to get reoriented. The crushing energy drain was absent, but the source of the experience couldn’t have originated with me since I was entirely convinced that I was right about my assessment of Spiritual Creatures. I spent a long time after that giving careful consideration to my mistake. The elder I was with didn’t experience it at all. I was still reeling when he made a snide comment in return to me, albeit one that was more in line with Jehovah’s thinking.

It somehow feels like I’m boasting, that the spiritual world would find me interesting enough to hassle with such regularity. I’ve known other JWs who have had similar experiences, though never as dramatic as mine. Though I’m not the only one to have encountered a demonic presence, I always seem to be the catalyst that lets it come forth both barrels blazing. The only recognizable encounter I ever had with a Holy presence left me shaken enough that I wouldn’t want to have that happen again either.

So why DO demons bug me? I asked one of the anointed about it once and got the only answer that seems to makes sense. She said that demons have their ‘pets’ sometimes, like family lines that they follow through generations. Makes a certain amount of sense to me. My mom was a legitimate clairvoyant until she started studying with the JWS. She’s also the only person I know who has had as powerful a demonic encounter as me without my being present, though they only started after my first encounter when I was about ten, and have been FAR less frequent with her. (continued–)

Frank, I don’t expect any of this to stand up as proof to you. I’m perfectly aware how ridiculous this must sound a rational person like you. There’s no smoking pistol that I can show you as proof that these things really happened. If I had heard this story from anyone without having gone through it myself I would be certain the person telling it was delusional. Perhaps even guilty of the kind of self hypnosis that comes with ‘speaking in tongues.’

But I’ve given serious thought to the context of these encounters and reached several conclusions, nonetheless. Firstly, intelligent creatures with identifiable ‘tastes’ exist outside of human awareness (that is, they react to philosophical rather than physical stimuli). Second, the encounters were related to events that have meaning within a Christian frame of reference, and would be difficult to explain outside of that. Lastly, and here I refer exclusively to the encounter that occurred with the elder, that it is possible to serve the true God through the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I mention this because I was involved very directly at that time with a ‘work’ that is qualifiably Christian in nature and could have the interest of Spiritual Beings as described in scripture. It hasn’t been made clear to me that I can serve God with another Christian church, but I personally believe that this is also acceptable. (continued–)

Ugh, that felt just awful getting this stuff off my chest. Naturally I don’t go around sharing these stories with just anyone, and I’ve been pretty careful even with other JWs since they’re such a judgmental lot, but I assure you that if you had been through what I’ve been through, there would be no room for doubt left in your mind. I’m fairly certain this answers your concen in regards to 1st Peter 3:15, though likely not in the way you expected.

Hi Rupunzel. I hope I didn’t creep you out too much. My first draft was better. It’s a shame the ether ate it.

I’m sure there will be questions and I’m ready to answer them–
Ready?…….GO!!!

Woah droid!! You are very brave to share these terrible and frightening experiences with us. I have heard of other experiences from believable people that I trust…but not of such an on-going nature as this. Does it leave you in a state of fear most of the time? Were your feelings affected in re-telling your story? Hope I’m not being too nosey here.

Hi Rupunzel. I’m not left in a state of fear most of the time. I watched that Smurf movie the other night on TV, and I’ve read Pet Cemetery and the Harry Potter books. Naturally the first time this happened, the ‘presence’, was pretty shocking, but I got used to it to a certain extent, pretty fast. When I left my grandpa to watch that thing on TV (post #139) I just got up and left the room because it was it was the thing that had to be done, and then went to get an apple out of the fridge. It stopped being psychically scarring pretty quickly and just became routine. I’ve been in circumstances where I would’ve expected that demon to show up since then, but, like I said, I think he wants a target that will entertain him. If I’m just bored with his presence, like I had been for the past ten years of his campaign against me, then I’m no fun. To be clear on this, I don’t test Jehovah. If the demon shows up I waste no time getting rid of whatever invited him, and it’s always a bit alarming because you just can’t just ignore terror no matter the source. But an outright insult to him while he was attempting to persecute me, and the full realization that I was aware he couldn’t do anything further to me seemed to have been enough to send him after better game.

Glad to hear it droid. Do you think the demon PUT the feeling of terror IN your mind, which is how your experience read to me, or was it your own thinking in response to something you perceived as supernatural and evil/Satanic? Your last comment leaves me a bit puzzled: “It stopped being psychically scarring pretty quickly and just became routine”. Then: “you just can’t just ignore terror no matter the source”. Just trying to understand what it’s like for you.

The most clinical explanation that I can offer would be that the demon had the ability to supercharge my adrenaline system to make his presence known. It had absolutely nothing to do with how I felt about what I was watching. In the Sixth Sense advertisement Bruce Willis’ face showed up on screen and a presence was there. I’ve watched a million Bruce Willis movies, so I couldn’t have been personally afraid of that. I only found out much later that the movie had a premise that might be associated with spiritism. It also couldn’t have been anything involved with my personal perceptions because others were FREQUENTLY affected by it if I was present, but otherwise had never experienced anything remotely like that before. When you experience overwhelming terror without an obvious identifiable source and you also have a bit of an education about the bible then the source is quite obvious with very little thought– whatever basic protections God grants to us to prevent demons going haywire with every person on the planet was lifted momentarily when I was in the presence of something that would be considered notably offensive to Him.

I landed on an architectural website once and was curious about a nearby building called the Winchester House. The rumor was that the widow of Charles Winchester (original manufacturer of the self-named rifle) went insane after he died and spent the family fortune keeping builders busy adding rooms to the house constantly. Stairways led into ceilings, doorways opened up to brick walls, etc. Fun stuff. I was unaware that she might have been being harassed by legitimate voices other than the schizophrenic ones that everyone assumed she heard. I opened the window for what looked like a well kept room within her crazy mansion and again I had that shocking overwhelming terror and energy drain. I kinda panicked for a moment while figuring out what to do to close the website down. Before I did, I saw that the room I had opened up on the Browser was called The Seance Room.

I have COUNTLESS stories like this, where the the ‘trigger’ that allowed the demon to pull his stupid trick on me resulted from something that I was only able to identify AFTER he was already there. I accidentally included one to many ‘just’s in the statement you quoted from me. Remove one and it will read clearer.

Perhaps I used too strong of a description when I said ‘psychically scarring’. At age ten I was well aware that any protection we had from demons was from God, so my my mom and I spent some time after that first experience praying and talking about it. And I’m sure I prayed after the next few times it happened. But, man!, that junk got old fast. By the time I was 14 or so and had that experience with my grandpa, I thought far less of the event than anyone else would have. It was just becoming a bother, like a varicose scar that flares up and gets itchy once or twice a month.

Hi Droid. This is a well-written account, thank you. I wonder, though, why after last night watching The Haunting of Connecticut I slept soundly, had no sense of a ‘presence’ while I watched it nor felt bad in my conscience for watching it. As a fan of Occam’s Razor and a sceptic by nature, I find myself looking for the natural cause of something not understood or misunderstood before being satisfied with the supernatural explanation. To do otherwise would put me in the category of the

superstitious:

1. An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.
2.
a. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
b. A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.

Actually, as I was watching it I remarked to someone else what would make doors open and slam with no equal and opposite force to do this? Not surprisingly, JWs have their own mythology, namely toy Smurfs that gayly walk across the floor of a Kingdom Hall to the surprise of everyone ready first to believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit and yet the presence of a malevolent one simultaneously.

How did I become a sceptic? Being all too ready to believe that an inexplicable sniffing sound in my garden was, in fact, a hedgehog going about its natural business and other embarrassing experiences. Having been a veteran of ‘supernatural’ OBEs (Out-of-Body Experiences) I searched for a naturalistic explanation. Then I learned…

Frank, you didn’t feel a ‘presence’ with you and you slept soundly because there was no ‘presence’ with you. I’m well aware that my circumstances are unique and that, to my knowledge, no one other than I and my mom have to be careful about these things. My brother never had such an encounter unless it was with one of us. I would also like to make it clear that ‘conscience’ has nothing to do with it. I’m a movie buff, and I’d love to see all the works of great directors like Spielberg, Kubrik, and M. Knight Shamayamadingdong. I felt no presence at all when I watched ‘Lord of the Rings’ despite the barrage of warnings from the WT, and MOST things related to ‘magic’ don’t make me flinch any more than it would bother you. I didn’t think you would be convinced, so I’m not disappointed. To reiterate, this was NOT a psychological reaction on MY part. OTHERS have have experienced it with me, and came to quickly recognize that it was ME that caused the presence to come forth. You can’t claim that this was ‘psychological’ if you don’t believe me. You can only claim that I’m lying, and I wouldn’t begrudge you that. My roommate didn’t believe me, even though he seemed to, until the presence was kicking his butt. I’d even asked others who had been through it with me to explain it to him before he moved in.

Hi droid..I’m just relieved that these horrible experiences have left you for now. Lets hope, and pray, that they stay away. Though I have never experienced anything like this, and never want to, I am obligated to believe that such things can and do happen. I think of the tremendous love and compassion Jesus had for demon-possessed individuals, and the relief he brought to them. I also recall Paul’s words regarding “the angel of Satan slapping him”..Just how much influence do they have in our day to day living? How much can we blame on them? I’m not sure, but we can be rest assured, Jesus is stronger than Satan.

…of Sleep Paralysis, a condition that frightens the subject who finds himself still physically asleep while being fully conscious of his surroundings. This anomaly is now attributed to being responsible for ‘alien abductions,’ ‘alien operations,’ and ‘Satanic cult abductions.’ I have felt these ‘presences’ many times and hallucinated as many times both aurally and physically. Now on the rare occasion it happens I have learned to use my consciousness to reason my way out rather than get anxious as one naturally does when paralysed (in this state naturally).

Take the case of two people, one ready to accept the existence of ghosts and the other someone who looks for the natural explanation. Have them both spend a night in a hotel room known to be haunted. To the superstitious one in his/her heightened state of expectation (fight or flight) any speck of dust becomes a ‘spectral orb.’ Every sound is amplified – the creaking floorboard, door, movement of rat etc. The one who is skeptical will likely just get a good night’s rest.

I have heard all the rumours that accompanied the making of the Exorcist and The Omen. Should I view them only as rumours or should I be ready to believe that when I turn off my TV the dirth of electromagnetism in the living room means that I have exorcised a demon?

Frank, you are sounding less and less open minded, and more like you have made up your mind. I really wonder why you bother being here. I expect many experiences have natural physical biological/medical causes. I watched a programme once where the scientist/doctor used electrical stimulation on a specific area of the subjects brain to “block” it, and it resulted in the subject having a “religious experience”. I was reading recently that the prodrome phase of a migraine headache can have the same effect…the subject even reporting seeing “elves”. Also they have reported “divine visions” of angels and such. But these do not seem to explain all “supernatural” experiences.

I think you misunderstand me, Rachel. All I am saying is how I approach these experiences. Do you think I should assume initially that they are spiritual experiences, or that I should take an Occam’s Razor approach?

Altered states are not to be trusted as evidence of the supernatural. First we should eliminate the material (as we are after all, material) and then play host to other explanations. This is the very definition of open-minded.

Maybe you’re familiar with Dynamo the Magician. What do you conclude when you see him levitating from a bus with one hand only touching the roof? Do you suspect a miracle or some other explanation? (type in ‘Dynamo Bus Levitation’ on Youtube.)

Two amazing, but not inexplicable, abilities are Patternicity and Agenticity, both which are scientific explanations of the everything from elves to God. Would you like me to explain, Rachel?

Not really. I have no idea what those words mean for a start!! What if we are talking about the “altered states” of more than one individual, experiencing the same thing at the same time? What if there are three or more, or even a house-full, experiencing the same thing…what are the odds?

HAHA! Actually, I’m used to Frank’s reaction and HONESTLY can’t begrudge him his skepticism. I know all about Occam’s Razor, and if I heard the story I just told, even from someone I knew well and fully trusted, I would be convinced that the truth was being clouded by embellishments. The only people whom I think believe me wholeheartedly have been with me when the little bugger was able to come forth in their presence. About half of them stopped hanging out with me shortly after, though I don’t think any of them blamed ME for what happened.

Hi Droid. You must think me insensitive to experiences that were obviously real and frightening to you at the time. I have no wish to offend or trivialise, only offer alternative ways to think about the same data.

Agenticity is a coined word to describe the mind’s ability to think of itself both subjectively and objectively. Some call this dualism.

Some innocuous examples of agenticity are: when irrationally we feel that we’re being watched; that a portrait’s eyes follow us around the room. Then there are the useful applications: feeling that someone is with us in a snow storm, is there when we’re praying and listening to us etc. It seems to be from the outside but the ‘agent’ is subjective (within us).

The Human Brain as an Evolved Rationalization Machine – A Review of Michael Shermer material:

“The other cognitive processthat acts as a major player in the formation of beliefs is agenticity, the tendency to infuse patterns with meaning, intention, and agency. Shermer argues that our evolved theory of mind, or capacity to be aware of the mental states and desires of others, has led people to attribute intentionality to the (often false) patterns we perceive. What can result are beliefs in things such as souls, spirits, ghosts, gods, demons, karma, fate, and a vast array of other intentional agents controlling aspects of our lives.

Amusing examples of agenticity include children’s tendencies to draw faces on things that do not have intentionality, such as the sun, and cross-cultural beliefs that genital shaped foods such as oysters or bananas increase sexual potency. Shermer argues that people naturally develop supernatural and superstitious beliefs due to our evolved tendency to find meaningful patterns and impart to them intentional agency. He uses this evolutionary hypothesis to help explain other supernatural beliefs such as communication with the dead and the sensed-presence (or guardian angel) effect.”

Patternicity – another coined word, describes the mind’s need to understand the world by comparing new experiences to those stored in our memory, for instance, a new taste – “that tastes like…,’ a new song, ‘wow, that sound like…’

Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion gives an example of himself as a young boy lying in bed in a large house and hearing the eerie sounds of ethereal words drifting back to him on one long, dark, scary night. Upon examination, he found that the ‘sound’ came from the wind blowing through a keyhole and creating different frequencies. He acknowledges the mind’s ability to create an entire scenario, including ‘words,’ ‘voices’ etc. Not being able to work out logically what it was, his mind did the next best thing – the supernatural explanation!

I had a similar experience many years ago after being warned not to bring ‘apostate’ Christian pamphlets into the house. I ignored this and was treated to demonic whispers, a face turned to wall in fright, no sleep, and a frightened leap to the fireplace to burn the offending documents.

I noticed, Droid, that your mother was a medium (clairvoyant). If she believed she was psychic, do you think that might have influenced your way of thinking about yourself?

Droid, it is patronising for me to comfort you saying that what you believed to be real WAS real to you. Having been both sides of the issue and having experience the ‘ethereal’ myself, I have no reason to believe I am and remain the target of some malevolent spirit creature, they don’t seem to like sceptics. I can assure you that when I once ran through a cemetery at 4 in the morning to catch the sunrise, I was more afraid of the living than the dead.

Not much point applying the psychobabble on me, bro. You’re trying to explain this stuff to yourself, not me. I never believed in monsters under the bed. I never believed in aliens. I still don’t believe in ghosts. And I don’t believe in psychology any more than I believe in astrology. As I said before, if I were you, having never experienced anything like this, I wouldn’t believe the story either. I’m not often willing to believe others when they have similar stories, so I’m not holding anything against you for it. Lay off the psychobabble though. It’s childish nonsense to me, equal to fortune cookies in its accuracy and insight. I did acid in high school, so I’m perfectly aware of how far the mind can go when inspired by chemicals. It only affects the person who takes it though, not the people nearby, so your explanation assumes I hallucinated conversations with people who still remember these experiences as I do. Do you think my own mother and brother have spent the past thirty years trying to delude me? That they’re only humoring me when they get to the remote control first in a panic and lay panting on the couch afterwards from the energy drain that we’ve all come to know so well? I suppose that you will have to convince yourself of this, or experience it for yourself.

I mean no offense, Frank, but psychobabble doesn’t address these issues. You’ll have to find another explanation if you’re addressing me, otherwise you’re still just explaining it away to yourself.

Rachel: “What if we are talking about the “altered states” of more than one individual, experiencing the same thing at the same time? What if there are three or more, or even a house-full, experiencing the same thing…what are the odds?”

Frank, Really, why are you here?
I am starting to believe (if I am allowed to use that word in your presence)that you like the sound of your own keyboard. Any attempt at feigning a clinical objective approach to this subject is lost when you pretend to not be sarcastic and patronising. Oh that’s right, your autistic! Well, I don’t believe you (there’s that word again)
What if I was to discount your experience, as you have Droids, and say that Autism is a construct that some people use as an excuse for their own arrogance and blunt reasoning power.
Could it be that you are an example of someone who really is “mentally diseased over questionings”.
You will never find the answers that you want because they will never be the answers YOU want.

Chris, are you a Christian? I only ask because your profession to being offended is liberally sprinkled with a particular kind of nastiness that accompanies expressed by someone when their evidence runs out (“Me thinks he doth protest too much” -Bill Shakespeare). As you are making the supportive claim that demons exist, remember – you’re (not ‘your’ as you incorrectly write above)making the claim. If you wish to make a genuine contribution to this discussion, don’t come to the ‘public square’ brandishing a notice saying. “I have my faith and I demand it be respected” because you are eliminating YOURSELF from the discussion if you have nothing more.

Being autistic has gifted me the advantage to reject emotional appeals as specious and encouraged me to look behind beliefs that have held good people back from making progress in their lives. Handing over our intellect to people who claim they are God’s earthly agents is completely within your prerogative, but don’t try not to be so arrogant when your long-held fuzzy wannabe wish-list items are challenged.

Droid: “Do you think my own mother and brother have spent the past thirty years trying to delude me?”

No, I don’t think this, Droid, any more than anyone believes they teach any belief to those they love are ‘deluded.’ Each parent has the right to bring their children up the way they feel is right. But there comes a time when the receivers of this parental wisdom have to sort out for themselves what’s going on in the universe. You are wrong when you claim I haven’t had my own ‘demonistic’ experiences. I just chose to accept the material explanation for them. I think I am better off.

It is a pity that you feel that one of the world’s most eminent students of the brain talks psychobabble. Would you put your body be treated by medieval blood-letters or qualified surgeons? We should view the same for what we feed our minds with. Or perhaps you check first whether such a surgeon believes in God.

Sorry, Frank. I honestly didn’t mean to upset you. I thought I ‘d made it clear that I wouldn’t expect you or anyone else to accept at face value the experiences I’ve recounted here. You may have had ‘demonistic’ experiences, but I assure you they were nothing on par with mine or those who experienced them with me.

As for what qualifies as ’eminent students of the brain’, well, that’s a pretty wide field. When assessing my experiences and observations you just pulled all the standard go-to evaluations that any psychology student would grasp at without considering the validity of the shared experiences I’ve had with others. Psychology truly is like astrology in that it provides a method for arriving at an answer, but the answer from one psychologist to the next can be just as varied and diverse as what would come from an astrology chart depending on the method used. Brain surgery certainly qualifies as a science, but psychology is just a list of unproven variables that bares little resemblance to science and has practical value only when applied by someone who already possesses above average insight.

I shared some of your comments with my mom. She offers the same insight that I do: “he hasn’t been through it, and he greatly underestimates the severity of the attacks.”

Honestly, Frank, until you can use your psychological insights to describe why others have experienced this in my presence and have never encountered anything similar anywhere else, you’re still just trying to explain it away for your own peace of mind.

My grandpa called a family meeting together because he was so upset by the attack. How can that possibly be in my mind?

It is interesting that you are using the word ‘attack,’ Droid. There must have been physical manifestations as well. These are phenomena that can be measured. Would you care to share them? Levitation, ectoplasm, furniture moving, mischievous goings-on, that sort of thing.

Would you also like to share the psychological or scientific evidence that supports the existence of malevolent spirits that can affect the lives of others in a parallel universe.

I hardly think the word ‘attack’ is ‘interesting’ considering what I’ve described. As I explained before there was no manifestation except for the wild adrenaline and exhaustion. Not sure what you’re asking for in the second paragraph. I’m still asking for your psychological assessment of the others who have been privy to these encounters.

That’s alright, Frank. Since you don’t believe these events were as I claimed, then the only conclusion you can come to that doesn’t rely on me having complex delusions stretched over decades is that I’m outright lying about it all.

I don’t think you would be rude enough to call me a liar, so this bandying the subject back and forth can’t possibly reach and end that will be satisfying for either of us.

If my story is true, then I have the same evidence as the Apostle Peter in backing his faith, in that I have firsthand experience with supernatural events that have no reasonable natural explanation. So. I’ve answered your query on 1st Peter 3:15 better than most might be able to. Peter probably wasn’t able to convince very many reasonable skeptics with his tales, either.

Even if objects had flown about the room and I had films of it that I could send you, you wouldn’t be convinced. Even if you were to meet every person who experienced these events and they signed sworn affidavits, you would still think we were pulling your leg. I can offer you no further proof than my clear-headed descriptions of what happened, and that just won’t do.

No offence intended here Frank, but you need to remember the purpose of this site: “This site is setup to help you keep faith in God and Christ, and maintain spiritual balance as you wake up to the “truth about the truth”. I am imagining you are dangerously close to being barred from this site. You seem to be a very angry man. Why are you so angry at God, and why do you have to take it out on us? Don’t worry, I know what your response will be.

Hi Droid. Perhaps all those privy to theses experiences would like to place their individual stories on this site so readers can adjudge their mental and emotional states for themselves. I have only presented facts and alternative theories. How you interpret my intentions is your business. As one wise saying puts it: What you think of me is none of my business.

I have read your experiences a number of times now. Both you and I have been JWs. All I can say is that thinking like a Witness is hardly conducive to mythbusting, surely only reinforcing the sense of the supernatural.

As Rachel, who once promised to stick by me, has decided to put words into JJ’s mouth and has become judge, jury, and executioner, I will close with these questions:

1 If someone could prove beyond a reasonable doubt the non-existence of demons, how willing would you be to accept other corporeal explanations?

2 Bearing in mind the very good reasons for the modern metaphor: “To exorcise one’s demons,” Is it possible that your dark childhood memories could be masking other more significant issues?

Droid, you are one hell of an interesting bloke to talk to. You express yourself exceptionally well. Thank you very much for sharing your experiences.

Sorry to disappoint you but I had a very stable non JW childhood.I continue to be a rational and stable adult. I am not aware of anyone disproving demons or anything in another realm. How could they? And Frank, it is you who are rejecting us here. You are displaying the very intolerance that you accuse the “compartmentalised” religions of doing. Why do you feel so threatened? I haven’t judged you. I was warning you because I can see the writing on the wall.

I’m pretty sure most JWs would dismiss my recollections as quickly as you, Frank. And I’m also certain that the testimonies of others who were not JWs, but suffered demonic encounters because of me, would also be no more convincing to you; half of them won’t have anything further to do with me anyway despite my charming demeanor and snappy fashion sense. I imagine the vision you have of me is that of a creepy little kid with a bad case of the heebie-jeebies. I didn’t have the dark and troubled childhood you suggest any more than most. You can really throw the word ‘average’ all over me for a perfect fit. You’re still trying to apply psychology to me alone, rather than those who went through this with me. You’ll get no further comment from me on the subject until you address this last issue.

Now you really have me thinking that somehow you are finding what I am saying therapeutic, Droid. A number of times I have attempted to shut down this conversation out of regard for your feelings. I have no desire to hurt anyone.

Rachel. The questions were not aimed at you.

Droid, you do me a dishonour when you stab at me that I would not believe your version of things under any circumstances. I have continued to post because I DO BELIEVE YOU, I’m just not ready to accept your interpretation without eliminating the most likely causes first. I have told you repeatedly that I am a THEISTIC agnostic. This means I have been ready to look for other explanations for such things.

I would be happy to use your own account to share what I believe is the common mechanism behind such experiences and I would like to illustrate this with a parallel situation. If you don’t want to hear it – close down this conversation.

No disrespect was meant, Frank. You’re still my best friend and I’ve had a good time reaching no conclusions with you. I’ll go ahead and close the subject with you since I think we’re not clearly understanding what each other’s main concerns are in this matter.

I’m still open to answering questions from anyone, including Frank, but I’m not going to try and prove anything to anyone. You’ll just have to take my word for what it is along with my personal interpretation. Thanks everyone for your comments and concerns– thanks Rupunzel, Chris, and Sunset for defending me. Thanks Frank for keeping it interesting.

You started off attempting to prove the existence of the spirit world by means of your occult experiences (1 Peter 3;15). This was trying to break through open doors for you. I am completely open to such as I am open to the existence of the quantum universe. To date,aAt least one of these universes gives good evidence of its own existence.

If anyone else would like to hear the mechanism behind such experiences please let me know.

Hi Frank! Sorry, that was a bit vague wasn’t it? Just saying that a lot of clearly intelligent people, who are very successful in life, are also Christian. I’m sure they would not feel “held back” because of their Christian beliefs. But there are Christian beliefs, and there are Christian beliefs. There are literally hundreds (if not more…actually I think thousands would be more accurate) versions. Sometimes you make it sound like Christians are unintelligent and thoroughly misguided and uninformed….which simply is not true.

Hi Rachel. Actually I was the one who felt harangued from every side here. Chris and his fellow, Sunset, were examples of ‘Christian ignorance.’ Chris particularly represents that nasty type who reacts rather than responds to what he perceives as threats to his ‘faith.’ Such intolerance is hardly Christ-like.

I would be very happy to declare Droid the target of a malevolent spirit if that would make him feel better, but that would be patronising to a man who, from the way he put his own account together, is obviously better than that. I expect ungenuine ‘Christians’ to react to a perceived threat, but I would hope that 3 intelligent people could have an interesting discussion of ALL the facts, then agree to disagree if that is the case.

Part of my own condition (Austims) is finding it hard to handle emotions. More often than not I have to close down and this means people see me as aloof. This makes it tough to maintain a relationship much less a friendship. Sometimes I can be the cool Mr. Spock, most times I’m just a pain in the ass, but that’s it – that’s how it works. As you will perhps now understand, your sympathy will feel paronising to me – though it is not meant that way. Empathy is simply not an option for me – unless I act it. So for me, emotions, which are often frightening to me, become the enemy.

One useful side-effect is that I perceive the emotion of others objectively. With a brain built for logic, every fact that I hear goes into the machine for processing. If there is a quantum universe, there may well be another with demons, angels and God. Without any measurable evidence in Droid’s story, the natural conclusion is that others experienced his emotion. Is this equal to sharing a demonic experience?

There is a great line in a Robbie Williams song: “You don’t want the truth, truth is boring” (I think it’s Tripping – Escapology). When there is no answer, humans make a theory, when there is no theory, they go for the conspiracy theory. Science works its butt off to find the answers, religion goes for the conspiracy theory every time. Faith is just that, it requires only a story and an emotional link. I refuse to patronise Droid by feigning sympathy, but, like it or not, I can sense there is an emotional link he makes to accepting this account, as I would too if there was no other way to think.

Hi Frank. Thanks for that explanation. I don’t feel sympathy for you (unless you want me to)…I’m just trying to understand you. Can we to work out the “rules of play” so we can continue having discussions? You seem to think that no-one else has considered the theories you talk about. What if we have considered the same “material/evidence” as you, but have come to different conclusions? Can we still be friends in that case, or will you think us all stupid and ignorant? Most people don’t take to that too well. Droid is an intelligent man. How do you know he hasn’t investigated alternative explanations for his experiences himself? I think what some here object to is the way you come across as being intellectually superior…and imply their stupidity and naivety. I hope this makes sense. Frank, here’s a suggestion: Join the forum and start a topic. You can tell me, and anyone else who wants to know, of the scientific mechanism behind “demonic experiences”. I am open to hear them. Currently I am reading a book called “The Divided Mind”, about psychosomatic illness. I am very interested in the workings of the brain. Actually I have the utmost respect and admiration for scientists. They pay the Creator the ultimate compliment. Unlike the bickering and squabbling religions!

Strong words indeed, Rachel. Thanks for not sympathising. Do you decide this is a non-Autistic world by the vote, or because this is how you want the world to be because it’s the world you inhabit? This is very Christian – building castles in the sky. Listen, you have computers because of Autism and probably most of scientific discovery. Please remember that when you dwell on why you are here. We are not backseaters as you would prefer. I am here to challenge the consensus that the God of the OT matches his profile. That means it’s a legitimate challenge and we will continue to challenge anything we don’t understand or cannot accept based on ACTUAL evidence, not fiction.

It is your intelligence that nourishes me, not your emotion. It’s nice that you’re reading a book about psychosomatic illnness. Do you have anything to progress the discussionn here?

Oh, and Rachel, if we are heading in the same direction., please remember that truth (the genuine provable product) makes the rules.

Hi Frank. Y’know, Faith and Empirical Data are kinda like chalk and cheese– i.e. completely different topics with nothing in common. You’re not really addressing the subjects everyone else is here to discuss. To stretch the aforementioned metaphor, suppose I just got my favorite cheese-of-the-month catalogue in the mail and immediately contacted all my friends on chalkart.com to share it with them. It’s not as if anyone at chalkart.com hates cheese, but if I’m only going to try and convince them that they need to draw cheese or throw their chalk away, I’m not really getting the purpose of a chalkart website.

I’m certainly not asking you to stop posting with us, but your need for unshakable proof that can pass arbitration in a magazine like Nature, goes against the purpose of why the rest of us are here. I think many others have tried to explain this to you before. Are you certain you wouldn’t be happier on a website that deals with issues that you’re concerned with? You don’t seem to have a great deal of concern for the things that matter to US.

Frank, this is like the tenth time this has been pointed out to you. Are you incapable of recognizing that the same thing keeps coming up in regards to your comments here? Please, pay attention this time. We’re not here to deal with your cheese.

Let me apologize for my harsh words before I close this post. I’ve still enjoyed your comments and company. Sincerest respects, MD

Droid, your apologies are wasted on me. Your close-mindedness is correctly expressed; thank you for being honest.

What makes YOUR struggle more important than mine? Somehow you and Rachel have taken upon yourselves to decide what is legitimate content for this site and what is not.

I understand that you don’t want long-loved and comfortable beliefs challenged. They identify who you are and feel like disembowelment when others suggest that there is another way of looking at the same ‘proof.’ In other words, I haven’t hurt you, but my exploration has – naughty me! After all, it was YOU who decided to attempt to prove the spirit world through your subjective experience of demon activity. Why should anyone accept your conclusions any more than any other subjective ‘Christ experience’?

You and Rachel have become proof to me of the solipsism of Christianity. 1 Peter 3:15 to most Christians means tell ’em what you BELIEVE and if they don’t like it – whatever legitimate argument they mount – ‘shake the dust off your feet.’ This means no forward momentum for most caught in this self-defeating mind-set.

It was Stephen J. Gould who incorrectly stated that that which requires faith and that which requires evidence are two different majesteria. Dawkins got it right when he stated in the God Delusion that the subject of the existence of God is not testable by science. Simply stating that God ‘exists outside time’ is not in the Bible but it is evidence of Christianity’s attempts to dodge very real challenges against its modern veracity.

Hi Frank. Please read the top lefthand corner of this web page, where you will read: “This site is set up to help you keep faith in God and Christ, and maintain spiritual balance as you wake up to ‘the truth about the truth'”.

I guess my parable was entirely lost on you. There is no such thing as objectivity. You do not understand the purpose of this site. You do not answer point blank questions that are asked of you while at the same time you demand clear answers o questions from us that have no answers.

I’m finding it difficult to maintain a relationship with someone who appears to be so far removed from human experiences as you. I’m not going to accept your autism as an excuse for your comments which, though written with a certain amount of intellectual flair, are completely lacking in poignancy.

It’s been fun spinning in circles and accomplishing nothing with you, but I’m afraid I won’t get anything further from you than that. I’m not even certain if you are deliberately pretending to misunderstand everything that we’re saying to you just to stir things up.

My dear chap, I ask you again, How is YOUR struggle more important than mine? Who are you to say I’m not trying to maintain my faith in Christ? Is this your gated Christianity talking? Of course it is! No one asked you even to speak here. You made claims and are not accepting the explanation other minds can make. It is not I who is the egotist here.

I’m very glad you make no excuses for my autism. That’s what I desire too. So…just answer the questions posed to you. If you have no answers, maintain your silence and I’ll put another knotch on my belt.

“I’ll put another knotch on my belt”
At last you have admitted it Frank. This whole exercise is sport for you isn’t it? Everyone one who challenges you is nasty and unchristian, but we are expected to read your responses as piercing and insightful . You have more faith in Mr Dawkins and his ilk than Christ, and you don’t even believe in God. So your pretense of trying to maintain your faith in Christ is a farce. You wouldn’t recognize Christ if he came to your front door. So why don’t you go and hunt down your old mate Skyrainbow and your can spar with her. Or maybe you are actually Skyrainbow and you are not only autistic but have multiple personality disorder. That would explain how your brain can accommodate such an absurd existence as a Theistic Agnostic. Give me a break. Go and breed your peculiar brand of self importance elsewhere. (oh and by the way, notch is spelt without a K)

Hello again my nemesis. Chris, the answer to your first questions is yes, though to begin with I had a genuine interest in this fascinating case. And yes, at least Dawkins offers proof of his arguments. I think you need to come into the 21st century, old chap.

I come here to be convinced…note – CONVINCED that the conclusions I draw from THE FACTS today are wrong. I depend on people like you, Droid, Rachel, and, in fact, anybody who can outwit modern science and established fact, to do this. You are obviously not off the starting block simply because you are yet to raise an actual argument.

Actually, Chris, you remind of Skyrainbow – all puff and no substance. As for your obvious malevolence towards me, perhaps you’d be better off joining the KKK, they can carry both philosophies quite successfully.

Addendum: Your comments don’t lack poignancy, entirely. But your starting position for your arguments is that of someone who does not share the Christian experience of Faith. Your last few posts to me have seemed so deliberately obtuse in this matter (as of an atheist, not of a theistic agnostic (who WOULD be interested in looking at these experiences that I recounted from the viewpoint that the Spirit world could exist)), that I truly don’t understand what you are attempting to gain or accomplish from your postings on this site.

Gosh, that last sentence, though grammatically correct, sure was befuddled with complexity.

Either way, you have dismissed my interpretations of these events as that of someone who is delusional. I assure you that even though I share many characteristics of autism with you, I am NOT without empathy. And neither are you. You are without Faith. EVERYONE else on this site has come here with Faith, which is why I don’t understand what you attempt to accomplish with some (but not all) of your postings.

Imagine me grinning sheepishly at you in embarrassment, my friend, as I would to anyone else whom I cared about, yet chastised, as I have done to you. This conversation would be much better handled over a pitcher at the local pub, rather than day by day postings that result in carefully chosen words, but carelessly chosen intentions.

I have no proof other than what I have already offered as proof that Things higher than Humans might exist. NO ONE does. NO ONE. Let me say it once more to be clear: NO ONE.

Unless you experience a similar encounter for yourself, than you cannot possibly imagine the powerful effect it has had on those who have gone through it with me. Not me personally, because I have always had faith. But those who have been so shattered by the experience because of their association with me, that they can longer endure my company.

You are TRULY underestimating the power of these events. I’ve had to comfort crying friends who were screaming at me for the effect these powerful and bizarre encounters have had on them. Are you worried about the same feeling of ‘disembowelment’ (your words) that might accompany your accepting the possibility that my recountings might be true?

Do you feel better now that you’ve got that anger off your chest, Droid? I am perfectly willing to grant your own admission to the ignorance you show over why I’m here. It is YOU who choose to ignore the FACTS I have stated. I have never said you’re delusional, but I did indicate you may be superstitious because of your background.

Interestingly, your last paragraph intrigues me particularly. Why were your friends ‘crying’? Was this because they came face-to-face with physical manifestations of these so-called spirits or because they were reacting to YOUR reaction to the ‘events’?

Addendum: Your comments do not lack poignancy. Your comments lack Faith, which IS the reason most of us are here. I suppose I’m wondering why you’re posting with us since the shared Christian experience of Faith is something you’re demanding answers for.

I really wish the ether hadn’t eaten my last post. It was more thoughtful than this one. Either way, I think you’re approaching this subject from an atheist rather than theistic agnostic point of view. A theistic agnostic would be open to interpreting my experiences as real rather than delusional. Can’t say I blame you too much, considering my own skepticism about similar accounts.

I would never wish on you that you could go through it with me, just so you’d realize how far removed from normal human experience these encounters have been, because they are truly awful. But you are SERIOUSLY underestimating the power of these events. There are three very specific occasions where I’ve been trying to console frantic, crying friends who were incapable of dealing with the severity of what happened to them. I’ve always had Faith, so I think the demonic presence wasn’t anything I couldn’t cope with, but for those who panicked and can no longer endure my company because of what happened to them, I think the experience was far worse.

I won’t attempt to chastise you, Frank, for lacking Faith, but that IS what ALL of the rest of are here for.

Matthew 5:44 everybody! I do not presume that anyone commenting in the last month or so on this subject (which has gone off course somewhat) considers Frank to be an enemy. At least I hope not. If we are to love even our enemies, my suggestion is to stop the personal attacks on those not considered our enemies.

No matter how irritating we may find some people to be, patience is surely required of those who consider themselves to be christians. Jesus said to forgive others 77 times- although we are not talking about forgiveness here, this hyperbole also emphasises the need for patience in dealing with each other.

It seems there is nothing more vicious than a Christian with his (or her) back to the wall. I came here for an adult discussion and I been attacked for my beliefs not by a malevolent spirit but by very real human beings who are intent on bullying the school-yard kid with the crutches!

Bring it on, guys and gals.

Not one of you have presented any measurable evidence for your claims. I like a ghost story like the next man, but remember I’M not making the claims, Droid, YOU ARE!

Good grief, Frank, Do you feel that I attacked you? I have not bullied you in any manner. When I expressed my concern that you might be be happier on another site, I wasn’t dismissing you. I was concerned, as I still am, that you don’t understand the purpose of this site which I will point out again is written in the top lefthand corner of this page. When you express over and over again that no one is tending to YOUR needs, you don’t seem to realize that your needs lay outside the scope of this forum. You’re asking for PROOF of God. Have you any idea how ridiculous that is? You will not find that here or anywhere else. We on this site are, “…trying to maintain a spiritual balance…” Your last few posts to me have been so obtuse in regards to the spiritual friendships that almost all of the rest of are trying to maintain that I will once again point out that you don’t understand the purpose of this site and YOUR needs are beyond reason.

Please learn to recognize that there is a world of difference between Faith and Empirical Data. WE are her for the former, and only the latter matters to YOU.

Be civil, Frank. That notch in your belt comment was as uncalled for as it was inaccurate.

We can see here the results of leaving Jehovah and his people.
Paul wrote: ‘If any many man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words. From these things spring envy, strife, abusive speeches, wicked suspicions’
1 Timothy 6:3,4.

It is unfortunate that you have witnessed this “discussion” Sunset. It is not at all representative of what goes on at this web-site. Most here feel free to ask questions, and share what they have learnt, in a spirit of love, and non-judgmentalsim. Not all here have that spiritual maturity. Not yet. As you correctly stated in a previous post, “Satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth”. There is no reason to think that JW’s are exempted from this either, in fact an examination of their history shows they have been as much in the dark as anyone else.

Tell me Droid, how do you think Jesus would have treated a bastard like me?

Miscreant Droid: “Good grief, Frank, Do you feel that I attacked you? I have not bullied you in any manner.”

Chris says:
August 6, 2013 at 10:40 am
Frank, Really, why are you here?
I am starting to believe (if I am allowed to use that word in your presence)that you like the sound of your own keyboard. Any attempt at feigning a clinical objective approach to this subject is lost when you pretend to not be sarcastic and patronising. Oh that’s right, your autistic! Well, I don’t believe you (there’s that word again)…Could it be that you are an example of someone who really is “mentally diseased over questionings”.

Rupunzelsawake says:
August 6, 2013 at 10:22 pm
…I am imagining you are dangerously close to being barred from this site. You seem to be a very angry man. Why are you so angry at God, and why do you have to take it out on us? Don’t worry, I know what your response will be.

Rupunzelsawake says:
August 7, 2013 at 2:27 am
…And Frank, it is you who are rejecting us here. You are displaying the very intolerance that you accuse the “compartmentalised” religions of doing. Why do you feel so threatened? I haven’t judged you. I was warning you because I can see the writing on the wall.
miscreant droid says:
August 7, 2013 at 4:53 pm
… Thanks everyone for your comments and concerns– thanks Rupunzel, Chris, and Sunset for defending me…

miscreant droid says:
August 9, 2013 at 10:21 pm
…Frank, this is like the tenth time this has been pointed out to you. Are you incapable of recognizing that the same thing keeps coming up in regards to your comments here? Please, pay attention this time. We’re not here to deal with your cheese…
Let me apologize for my harsh words before I close this post…

miscreant droid says:
August 11, 2013 at 2:06 am
Hi Frank. …
I’m finding it difficult to maintain a relationship with someone who appears to be so far removed from human experiences as you. …
It’s been fun spinning in circles and accomplishing nothing with you, but I’m afraid I won’t get anything further from you than that…

Chris says:
August 11, 2013 at 4:36 pm
At last you have admitted it Frank. This whole exercise is sport for you isn’t it? Everyone one who challenges you is nasty and unchristian, but we are expected to read your responses as piercing and insightful . You have more faith in Mr Dawkins and his ilk than Christ, and you don’t even believe in God. So your pretense of trying to maintain your faith in Christ is a farce. You wouldn’t recognize Christ if he came to your front door. So why don’t you go and hunt down your old mate Skyrainbow and your can spar with her. Or maybe you are actually Skyrainbow and you are not only autistic but have multiple personality disorder. That would explain how your brain can accommodate such an absurd existence as a Theistic Agnostic. Give me a break. Go and breed your peculiar brand of self importance elsewhere.

miscreant droid says:
August 11, 2013 at 5:39 am
Addendum: Your comments don’t lack poignancy, entirely. But your starting position for your arguments is that of someone who does not share the Christian experience of Faith. Your last few posts to me have seemed so deliberately obtuse in this matter (as of an atheist, not of a theistic agnostic (who WOULD be interested in looking at these experiences that I recounted from the viewpoint that the Spirit world could exist)), that I truly don’t understand what you are attempting to gain or accomplish from your postings on this site…
Either way, you have dismissed my interpretations of these events as that of someone who is delusional. I assure you that even though I share many characteristics of autism with you, I am NOT without empathy. And neither are you. You are without Faith. EVERYONE else on this site has come here with Faith, which is why I don’t understand what you attempt to accomplish with some (but not all) of your postings…
Imagine me grinning sheepishly at you in embarrassment, my friend, as I would to anyone else whom I cared about, yet chastised, as I have done to you. …

Sunset says:
August 12, 2013 at 4:40 pm
We can see here the results of leaving Jehovah and his people.
Paul wrote: ‘If any many man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words. From these things spring envy, strife, abusive speeches, wicked suspicions’
1 Timothy 6:3,4.

Droid: “Your last few posts to me have been so obtuse in regards to the spiritual friendships that almost all of the rest of are trying to maintain that I will once again point out that you don’t understand the purpose of this site and YOUR needs are beyond reason.”

I see some of the cowardly among you have gone running to the proprietor of this site to complain about me.

Well, let’s take a summary of what hasn’t been achieved:

1 No one has even attempted to answer my questions:

What is the function of faith in the outworking of God’s desire to reconcile man to himself?

What makes Miscreant Droid’s ‘struggle’ more important than mine?

And a number of others.

2 We have a maverick ‘faithful’ JW (Sunset) who can only quote scriptures without adding anything informationally to this debate (and why is he/she here anyway when Witnesses have been told not to come to these sites).

3 We have Chris who is about as Christian as an Ayatollah, who obviously likes tagging on someone else’s wall.

4 The lovely Rachel who has apparently been deputised by JJ to run his site and who now feels authrorised (by God?) to make the rules.

5 We have a completely unsubstantiated subjective anecdote that is apparently equal to a scientific study into how other-worldly creatures can target earthly individuals, that gets exorcised when the TV is turned off.

6 Mob mentality when any challenge is posed to long-held personal beliefs that make personal attacks on someone who is himself struggling to make head-nor-tail of faith in the scientific age.

What can I or any other thinking individual conclude from being treated to all this BS?

Faith, religion, Christianity, the Christian personality and the Bible is nothing more than…candyfloss – all sugar and artificial colouring. You lot should be ashamed of yourselves.

Tell me Droid, how do you think Jesus would have treated a bastard like me?

Miscreant Droid: “Good grief, Frank, Do you feel that I attacked you? I have not bullied you in any manner.”

Chris says:
August 6, 2013 at 10:40 am
Frank, Really, why are you here?
I am starting to believe (if I am allowed to use that word in your presence)that you like the sound of your own keyboard. Any attempt at feigning a clinical objective approach to this subject is lost when you pretend to not be sarcastic and patronising. Oh that’s right, your autistic! Well, I don’t believe you (there’s that word again)…Could it be that you are an example of someone who really is “mentally diseased over questionings”.

Rupunzelsawake says:
August 6, 2013 at 10:22 pm
…I am imagining you are dangerously close to being barred from this site. You seem to be a very angry man. Why are you so angry at God, and why do you have to take it out on us? Don’t worry, I know what your response will be.

Rupunzelsawake says:
August 7, 2013 at 2:27 am
…And Frank, it is you who are rejecting us here. You are displaying the very intolerance that you accuse the “compartmentalised” religions of doing. Why do you feel so threatened? I haven’t judged you. I was warning you because I can see the writing on the wall.
miscreant droid says:
August 7, 2013 at 4:53 pm
… Thanks everyone for your comments and concerns– thanks Rupunzel, Chris, and Sunset for defending me…

miscreant droid says:
August 9, 2013 at 10:21 pm
…Frank, this is like the tenth time this has been pointed out to you. Are you incapable of recognizing that the same thing keeps coming up in regards to your comments here? Please, pay attention this time. We’re not here to deal with your cheese…
Let me apologize for my harsh words before I close this post…

miscreant droid says:
August 11, 2013 at 2:06 am
Hi Frank. …
I’m finding it difficult to maintain a relationship with someone who appears to be so far removed from human experiences as you. …
It’s been fun spinning in circles and accomplishing nothing with you, but I’m afraid I won’t get anything further from you than that…

Hi, Frank. You’ve been very antagonistic of late. Please stop demanding that we babysit you. If you haven’t found the answers you’re looking for, and the comments here are upsetting you so much, please find somewhere else to vent your frustrations. When you’ve cooled down some, we’ll be happy to debate matters related to Christian topics with you.

Chris says:
August 11, 2013 at 4:36 pm
At last you have admitted it Frank. This whole exercise is sport for you isn’t it? Everyone one who challenges you is nasty and unchristian, but we are expected to read your responses as piercing and insightful . You have more faith in Mr Dawkins and his ilk than Christ, and you don’t even believe in God. So your pretense of trying to maintain your faith in Christ is a farce. You wouldn’t recognize Christ if he came to your front door. So why don’t you go and hunt down your old mate Skyrainbow and your can spar with her. Or maybe you are actually Skyrainbow and you are not only autistic but have multiple personality disorder. That would explain how your brain can accommodate such an absurd existence as a Theistic Agnostic. Give me a break. Go and breed your peculiar brand of self importance elsewhere.

miscreant droid says:
August 11, 2013 at 5:39 am
Addendum: Your comments don’t lack poignancy, entirely. But your starting position for your arguments is that of someone who does not share the Christian experience of Faith. Your last few posts to me have seemed so deliberately obtuse in this matter (as of an atheist, not of a theistic agnostic (who WOULD be interested in looking at these experiences that I recounted from the viewpoint that the Spirit world could exist)), that I truly don’t understand what you are attempting to gain or accomplish from your postings on this site…
Either way, you have dismissed my interpretations of these events as that of someone who is delusional. I assure you that even though I share many characteristics of autism with you, I am NOT without empathy. And neither are you. You are without Faith. EVERYONE else on this site has come here with Faith, which is why I don’t understand what you attempt to accomplish with some (but not all) of your postings…
Imagine me grinning sheepishly at you in embarrassment, my friend, as I would to anyone else whom I cared about, yet chastised, as I have done to you. …

Sunset says:
August 12, 2013 at 4:40 pm
We can see here the results of leaving Jehovah and his people.
Paul wrote: ‘If any many man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words. From these things spring envy, strife, abusive speeches, wicked suspicions’
1 Timothy 6:3,4.

Droid: “Your last few posts to me have been so obtuse in regards to the spiritual friendships that almost all of the rest of are trying to maintain that I will once again point out that you don’t understand the purpose of this site and YOUR needs are beyond reason.”

I would like to address Sunset’s use of ! Tim 6:3,4. I am getting tired of the use of the derogatory term “mentally diseased”, which is, in my opinion, a mistranslation appearing in the NWT. Just compare it to other translations and there is no other bible that even comes close to using such a term. The WT has used it at least twice in the last 2 years- see w11, 7/15, p16, para 6 and more recently in the “human apostates” talk at this year’s District Convention.

By the way Sunset as a JW apologist, why are you here? That same WT article commands you to avoid ‘false teachers’. How? Among other things and I quote: “avoid their websites or adding comments to their blogs”. Before you repent of your sin of associating with ‘false teachers’ and confessing to the elders in your cong, stay long enough to consider this:

If the term ‘mentally diseased’ is to be used then surely this applies to those who lie, deceive or twist facts to put themselves in a good light. The WT has often quoted from Rutherford’s ‘advertise, advertise, advertise’ 1922 talk. But unfortunately only the parts that create an impression he was fortifying his listeners for the start of a long and arduous preaching campaign. What most present day Witnesses don’t know is, that at that time Rutherford was also teaching that the ‘old worthies’ would be resurrected in 1925, with Armageddon to follow soon after. The Revelation book presents this talk as the first of 7 trumpet blasts, which would end in 1928.

Also what they fail to mention is that in the talk Rutherford outlined the following:
1.1799 was the year the “time of the end” started.
2. Jesus’ presence started in 1874.
3. The period from 1799 to 1874 was a “day of increasing light”. 4. 1874 to 1914 was the “day of Preparation” in which Jesus “conducted a harvest and has gathered unto himself the temple class”.
5.Just prior to the ‘advertise’ part (which is the part the WT has quoted ad infinitum over the years), Rutherford asks the audience: “Do you believe the King of glory is present and has been since 1874?”

This is but one example of how the WT has used ‘selective quoting’ to create a false impression of the reality. So, who really are the ‘mentally diseased’ ones? Is this “the truth” that the WT governing body and its followers possess?

Saliently, Ray says in his book (see above) that the reasons why “Jehovah’s Witnesses” – The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society – was de-registered in Russia were because the organisation had policies that split families up (social shunning of disfellowshipped members of a family unit)and refused to allow parents to give their children life-saving treatment.

Now, perhaps Sunset or his ilk would quote chapter and verse where the WTBTS has gone into print giving the FULL STORY why they were ‘banned’ in the USSR. As far as I know the story was was that 33 of the Society’s books were considered seditious.

What do you think, Jimmy – yet another case of taking a pair of scissors to the truth?

Needless to say, they now go running to their political friends to enforce the UNITED NATIONS convention on a religion’s right to be self-governing. There is no First Amendment in Russia.

Droid: “Hi, Frank. You’ve been very antagonistic of late. Please stop demanding that we babysit you. If you haven’t found the answers you’re looking for, and the comments here are upsetting you so much, please find somewhere else to vent your frustrations. When you’ve cooled down some, we’ll be happy to debate matters related to Christian topics with you.”

Actually, I thrive on your disdain. After being captive for so many years, I enjoy using a red-hot poker with those such as yourself. Remember – YOU changed the subject and brought your superstitions into this discussion. I attempted to close down discussion for the sake of your obvious sensitivities. You only have YOURSELF to blame.

And for future consumption – I can be as nice as you are to me. Do so and you might learn something.

Frank
By the sheer amount of commenting you’ve been doing on this site I can see that you’re emotionally attached to something that you want from the other commentators.

Have you looked inside yourself to see what it is? Is it the desire to be right and have others admit that you’re right? This is a heavy burden to bear. Put it down. I know because in the past I’ve also carried the burden of trying to be right in every belief and opinion that I had. It is not possible to be right in everything we think. Every opinion, belief, and thought that we have even if it is valid can be expanded upon to be closer to the truth. I’m sure you realize that you do not know 100% of the truth.

I believe you want truth and this is admirable. But can you not see that steamrolling the opinions of others and adding uncomplimentary comments is not showing love? Love is everything. For instance, morality although good without love turns into self-righteousness. A piercing intellect without love turns into smarter-than-thou. We are all one. We can not hurt, put down, humiliate, or scorn our fellow man without hurting ourself. I know you may feel justified in your comments because someone egged you on but set the example in having a civil discourse. State your opinion and walk away. Be unattached to how others respond to it.

Just think how the world would be if every person truly believed that they could not hurt another person without hurting themselves.

Sunset- I hope you’re still with us. I forgot to add regarding Rutherford’s talk (see comment 194) that he used the following phrases when outlining the dates he used and I quote (capital letters mine):

1. “FULFILLED prophecy shows BEYOND A DOUBT that he did appear in 1874. FULFILLED prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are INDISPUTABLE”.
2. “JESUS HIMSELF declared that in the time of his presence he would conduct a harvest of his people, during which he would gather unto himself the true and loyal ones. For some years this work has been in operation and is NEARING COMPLETION.”
3.”All the facts show that those prophecies have BEEN FULFILLED.”
4. “The kingdom of heaven is at hand; the King reigns;Satan’s empire is falling; millions now living will never die. Do you believe it?.”

This talk was not to bolster ‘Jehovah’s people’ for a long and difficult preaching campaign decades in length, leading up to Armageddon. Yet this is how the WT has portrayed it for as long as I can remember. The use of the terms ‘nearing completion’ and ‘millions now living will never die’ referred to Rutherford’s 1925 Armageddon prediction. On top of that all of this was ‘indisputable’ and ‘beyond a doubt’.

Sound familiar? Think about this the next time you hear or read the GB demand your loyalty to ‘the Organisation’, because what they really mean is that THEY (the GB) demand your loyalty to THEM. You are required to TRUST them as God’s sole channel never doubting. This current GB is no different from Rutherford- making up the latest set of fairy tales (e.g July 15 2013 WT study articles) and demanding ‘the Faithful’ to believe it all or be removed and shunned. The result? We need only to learn from the past.

Andrew- a number of commenters have used disparaging remarks on this topic (which has morphed somewhat). Did you notice Frank’s statement, “after being captive for so many years”. Many of us are ‘born-ins’, only coming to the realisation that the WT is a FRAUD, when reaching middle age or worse old age. On another website there are JWs commenting that they were baptised in the 1950s and 60s and only recently coming to this conclusion. So much time wasted being deceived for all those decades.

I had a look on the topic ‘Do you know TTATT?’ I saw how Skyrainbow in a brilliant way defended the real truth against Frank and JimmyG who became nervous and agressive. Jimmy is it true you are going to the meetings with a recording device, hidden behind your tie?
But what happened with Skyrainbow? He disappeared suddenly? Was he banned from the site?

Sunset- If you think Skyrainbow was ‘brilliant’, then I think my efforts are lost on you. You have completely ignored everything I’ve written in my last 2 posts. The GB do not want you to associate with apostates, but still you are here, breaking the rules.

I think Sky took my advice and confessed to the elders and is now obeying ‘the slave’. You should do the same.

This temper tantrum of yours is very unbecoming of someone of your intelligence, Frank. In post #198 you say, “I thrive on your disdain…I enjoy using a red hot poker…” You keep demanding that your needs be tended too, while I keep reminding you that your needs, i.e. incontrovertible evidence of the existence of God, cannot be granted by this or any other forum. You’ve gotten yourself worked up and keep posting over and over again trying to prove, I suppose, that you’re the smartest person in the room, but you’re just coming across like a bratty little kid having a fit.

I will point out to you again that the objective of this forum is to help those looking for spiritual balance, while your purpose appears to be to stick everyone with a red hot poker. Please stop being childish, Frank. Your autism may sometimes make it difficult for you to appreciate the adult criticisms against your behavior, so perhaps you should spend some time learning to understand why grown-ups, like every else posting here, are so annoyed by you. Please, Frank, take responsibility for your autism, and try to figure out why ‘trolling’ is only done by teenagers. You need to start acting like an adult and stop throwing personal insults into your disagreements with others on this forum.

Some comments have been removed. Commenting on this thread has been closed. The site rules have been violated by Frank and he has been warned.

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he phrase “Jesus Loves You!” (with or without the exclamation point) is well known. In fact nearly all people on planet earth have heard it which of course to some extent makes the phrase a cliché. But the fact remains that Jesus does love us. He loves you, and he loves me. It can also be admitted that we all sometimes forget that God and his Son loves us. We forget in the sense that we get so wrapped up in the day-to-day pressures of life that we forget to reflect and exemplify Godly Joy as a fruit of His Holy Spirit. (Galatians 5:22; 1 John 4:8) Due to pressing problems such as stress on the job, making ends meet, health issues, our sinful nature, etc. we can become discouraged. And of course a large source of turmoil for many of us relates to our awakening to the flaws within the Watchtower Organization and its leadership. It has taken the place of Christ for some Witnesses, and many of us too were enmeshed in this false conviction at one time. We are here reading and commenting together on JWS because of our shared confusion and pain, even resentment.

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