zenman wrote:Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?

There is no dzogchen or mahāmudra practice without direct introduction, at minimum.

Deity yoga practice is meant for those who do not understand the meaning of dzogchen or mahāmudra directly. Deity yoga is the indirect means of realizing dzogchen and mahāmudra.

Mahamudra realisations are impossible without Deity Yoga because generation stage practices are the cause of completion stage and enlightenment is impossible without completion stage. You make Highest Yoga Tantra sound inferior to Mahamudra when Mahamudra realisations are completion stage realisations of HYT.

zenman wrote:Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?

There is no dzogchen or mahāmudra practice without direct introduction, at minimum.

Deity yoga practice is meant for those who do not understand the meaning of dzogchen or mahāmudra directly. Deity yoga is the indirect means of realizing dzogchen and mahāmudra.

Mahamudra realisations are impossible without Deity Yoga because generation stage practices are the cause of completion stage and enlightenment is impossible without completion stage. You make Highest Yoga Tantra sound inferior to Mahamudra when Mahamudra realisations are completion stage realisations of HYT.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

zenman wrote:Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?

There is no dzogchen or mahāmudra practice without direct introduction, at minimum.

Deity yoga practice is meant for those who do not understand the meaning of dzogchen or mahāmudra directly. Deity yoga is the indirect means of realizing dzogchen and mahāmudra.

Mahamudra realisations are impossible without Deity Yoga because generation stage practices are the cause of completion stage and enlightenment is impossible without completion stage. You make Highest Yoga Tantra sound inferior to Mahamudra when Mahamudra realisations are completion stage realisations of HYT.

If you say that Mahamudra realisations are impossible without deity yoga then you're also saying the realization of Prajnaparamita is impossible without deity yoga and that the state of Prajnparamita is different to Mahamudra .

As for whether deity yoga is essential in the beginning ,middle and end, It really depends on the tradition you're practising, any specific samaya commitments and your teacher's advice and recommendation. The gradual approach of Dzogchen and Mahamudra via the Yidam seems to be most commonly prescribed but it isn't in every case.

It's not so black and white. There are some instructions that recommend keeping company with the Yidam even after you've experienced the 'birth' of uncontrived Mahamudra and Dzogchen mediation but then there also some instructions that view meditating with any form of contrived effort as a sidetrack and deviation if you've confidently experienced the genuine 'birth of meditation'. Doing so is described Like searching for shiny trinkets when you've already got gold in your hand or searching for the elephant in the forest when it's resting right next to you.

As for the OP, if you havn't received direct introduction or pointing out instructions, becoming familiar with śamatha and vipaśyanā can be extremely useful until then since neither are absent in certain Mahamudra and Dzogchen approaches.

Mahamudra is spoken of in many different ways. It is a "state." Dzogchen, too, can be approached with this understanding, but I will confine my comments to Mahamudra.

So, Mahamudra is the Result, also the State of Awareness/Emptiness, or sometimes described as "Bliss/Awareness," and, when fully stabilized, is Buddhahood. It's also spoken of as the ground, and as the path.

The Path of Mahamudra can be approached in myriad ways. There are traditions that dispense with Deity practice, but which rely on specific instructions, Pointing Out Instructions, Introductions, etc.
There are traditions which utilize the Two Stages of Deity Yoga, as well.
Tsongkhapafan's comments apply to a specific system or practice, and do not apply to the wider, rich tradition of Mahamudra. there are indeed other systems which rely on deity yoga and there are systems where deity yoga may or may not be included.

Last edited by conebeckham on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Let’s say there are two kids being taught a lesson by a parent. The parent picks up a basket ball and tells both kids “kids, the world is a round orb, similar to this ball only a lot bigger, it might take time but you can walk completely around it.” Then the father explains about why the sun sets and rises and why we see a curvature of the horizon when we are at elevation etc.

One kid completely understands what is being pointed out. The second kid doesn’t quite get it, so he sets out to see if the world is really round, and he walks around the world to come back however many years later and finds the other kid sitting in the exact place where he left on his long journey. The kid who just returned tells the other kid “Hey! The world is round.”

The kid who knew from the get go after the father explained to him replies. “I know.”

zenman wrote:What are the names of those methods that do the same preparation without deities?

Yantra yoga, pranayāma, etc., are all practices which in Dzogchen do not require deity yoga. In general, one can understand that Dzogchen utilizes many methods from the completion stage without requiring the creation stage.

So. There are tantric deity practices for preparation, generation. What are the names of those methods that do the same preparation without deities?

I understand the importance of direct introduction and have received it from Norbu Rinpoche.

From the Mahamudra tradition, there are practices of Samatha and Vipassana which follow certain lines of analysis and certain objects of placement. some of these practices could be considered preparatory. Guru Yoga is indispensable. What we call "ngondro" is really elaborate guru yoga, and of course the standard "ngondros" include deities. But there are methods of Guru Yoga that do not include "deities," per se.

But ultimately, it is the Guru's instruction, and the disciple's reciept and internalization, which are the absolute necessities for Mahamudra, in any of the Mahamudra traditions I'm aware of. Everything else is applied as necessary, as means, as enrichment, etc.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Malcolm wrote:
Yantra yoga, pranayāma, etc., are all practices which in Dzogchen do not require deity yoga. In general, one can understand that Dzogchen utilizes many methods from the completion stage without requiring the creation stage.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

conebeckham wrote:
From the Mahamudra tradition, there are practices of Samatha and Vipassana which follow certain lines of analysis and certain objects of placement. some of these practices could be considered preparatory.

Are such instructions in detail by any chance available through a public source?

I am trying to figure out what the ways for recognising the natural state are, and how these ways are exercised, after one understands through being directly introduced to the natural state what the natural state is. Different routes from the messy state to the clear state.

My question was a reply to Malcolm's post, edited it after first posting it.

But if you answered to me, can you tell me what these methods are, just the names and where I could try to learn them.

They (well Shamatha and Vipaysana generally at least) can be learned at many (Tibetan Buddhism-oriented) public Dharma centers, many have classes on them. However, they still aren't things to just go pick up and leave, it's best to have a teacher and/or supportive community around you, it's not like you just get the instructions and you're done.

Conebeckham wrote:But ultimately, it is the Guru's instruction, and the disciple's reciept and internalization, which are the absolute necessities for Mahamudra, in any of the Mahamudra traditions I'm aware of. Everything else is applied as necessary, as means, as enrichment, etc.

What Cone says here, these aren't just "techniques" you can kind of pick up from a text adequately or something, some sort of connection to a teacher and a tradition is kind of indispensable.

There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.