Guest Post – What is Shane Jones doing?

OK six months ago Shane Jones’ political career was going nowhere. Watching porn on the country’s credit card is not a good look and people have not forgotten this.

He was very entertaining during the Labour leadership campaign and made many people smile. There should be a place in the labour party for real characters although where precisely I am not sure.

His elevation to the front bench was deserved. He has preformed pretty well and skewering the Aussie supermarkets in the way they have manipulated local suppliers has been a highlight.

But Shane needs to realise that the game does not revolve around him. The Labour Party is not here to provide him with a career, he is here to further the interests of the Labour Party.

During the past couple of weeks he has in the news slinging mud at Green MP Gareth Hughes, calling Russel Norman an “Australian” and then letting some of the pressure off Judith Collins by insinuating she was having an affair and then apologising to her. He has continuously attacked the Greens for wanting to protect the environment and says that they are costing jobs. I am sure National MPs agree with Jones whole heartedly which shows what the problem is.

Yesterday, on the day that David Cunliffe gives an important speech the media are concentrating on Jones back down.

Jones and a few of the old guard seem to think that Labour’s best chance to win the election is to side up to New Zealand First and to attack the Greens. This is a really stupid idea and will trash a lot of good work that has been put into improving the relationship between Labour and the Greens. The thought of some sort of deal between Labour and Peters will annoy Labour and Green activists no end and will cause Labour considerable harm.

In 1999 when there was cooperation on the left Labour was elected to Government. In 2005 when there was similar cooperation Labour won a knife edge election and was elected to a third term for the first time since the first Labour Government. Cooperation is good and the sort of things left wing parties should do.

The problem with Jones cuddling up to Peters is that it makes it more likely that Labour Voters will go over to NZ First. Peters will side with the party that offers him the most baubles. Jones’ strategy may see National confirmed in Government for three more years.

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149 comments on “Guest Post – What is Shane Jones doing?”

Sabotaging the Labour chances of winning the next election Cunliffe needs to shut him up or dump him straight to the furthest back bench with NO portfolios at all. Jones cannot be allowed to think he is bigger than the Labour party. And if he don’t like it then he can piss off to his first love the Nats.

Anyone who thinks Jones is a credible leader for Labour is totally out of touch. Jones’ appeal is to a narrow section of the centre/centre left. He doesn’t have much of a great following among women for a start.

tricledrown made this comment below. It’s a bit off because I would say that Jones has Labour on the back foot.
But the bit about barbs and contrition and what felix says about Collins and Jones reminds me of The Press cartoon that Bryce Edwards has picked up. Collins being so sorrrry, Not.https://twitter.com/bryce_edwards

Jones is keeping Labour in the news and on the front foot .
His apologies had more barbs than contrition.

I choose Green. It’s about principle and policy. The whole lesser evil approach has resulted in the centre of politics being pulled steadily left. Enough of compromise politics. It’s time to lead on the big issues and focus on informing the public.

Too much time has been wasted on the whole horse race, Game approach to discussing politics.

The policies that National supports will guarantee their eventual fall in popularity.
National pisses on people’s shoes and tells them it’s raining. Their lies and spin will catch up with them in the end.

Politics is on a continual leftward drift because leftwing politics is at heart about representing the people. That’s why the Green party is now a major political player.

The National party is now a special interest party, it’s just that they are backed by powerful financial interests. So in a way you’re correct, eventually the public will see how extreme National is and they’ll stop buying into it.

It’s a pity that National abandoned their principles for neoliberal plundering. Long-term they’ve kinda fucked themselves.

I doubt the Green Party will do well under the full glare of public scrutiny. They are too far-left. Their current levels of support are due mostly to Labour being so awful. They are highly unlikely to survive being a minor partner, as history shows minor parties get decimated in government.

National are not extreme. They are very close to Helen Clark’s Labour. That centrist core is what New Zealanders want, not some re-run of cod-Marxist Venuzuela.

Under MMP, we’re highly unlikely to see significant shifts. Support partners would block policy agendas that come out of the blue. New Zealanders are unlikely to vote for radical change in advance.

National aren’t crumbling. Colins was stupid, but it is beltway stuff. Come the election, people will vote for Key, because they like him and trust him, and for a continuation of economic policy, because it appears to be going well for most.

But they have. Most people – through their votes – seem to be accepting of the fundamental foundations of the Roger Douglas government (yes, his government).

If that is thought not to be an extreme political agenda then the word ‘extreme’ has lost all meaning. The vast swathe of suffering that followed that agenda – and continues to be generated by it – has certainly been extreme. ‘Third World’ disease, increased mental ill-health, dislocation of people from each other and from place – and the social and community consequences of that – are all direct and entirely predictable consequences of the ‘liberalised’ economy, labour market and public sector. The figurative jungle was created and the weak have dutifully gone to the wall as a result.

By contrast, what the Greens are proposing could only be described as moderate.

I agree, but I’ve seen a lot of people saying the same thing about Jones recently – and given he ran for the leadership last year he clearly sees himself as credible. I just wish we didn’t have these sideshows (and that people could can the petty personal attacks! There’s so much to criticise Collins for!).

“The thought of some sort of deal between Labour and Peters will annoy Labour and Green activists no end and will cause Labour considerable harm.”

Labour activists already understand that the next Labour led government will most likely require support from both NZF and the Greens. That’s just the way the numbers stack up. Rather than doing harm, having a good relationship with Peters is actually vital if we want to guarantee an end to the NACTM government.

It’s funny that you should write this paragraph, yet forget the actual makeup of the 2005 Clark government:

“In 2005 when there was similar cooperation Labour won a knife edge election and was elected to a third term for the first time since the first Labour Government. Cooperation is good and the sort of things left wing parties should do.”

So if cooperation is what left wing parties should do, why shouldn’t we do it with Peters? It worked in 2005, it will have to work now.

Was it in 2005 that Labour was bending over backwards behind the scenes to assure the US that the Greens would not be in power while peddling the opposite line in public? The cables were all a part of the wiki leaks. It’s a searchable data base.

Why are you asking me, Bill? Shouldn’t you be asking the wikileaks database? I’ll be interested in the answer, because it always puzzled me why HC didn’t try harder to get the Greens into government. On the surface, it was Winston’s refusal to go into coalition with them, but given his vanity, I would have thought he could have been bought off anyway in the negotiations.

Now in her third term in office, Clark has over the years developed a deeper understanding of the breadth and benefits of the US-New Zealand relationship. She recognises that sound bites matter, and in response has begun to modulate her public statements to be more positive about the relationship. She also strenuously avoids saying anything critical about U.S. policy. Although a strengthened centrist domestic political opposition may motivate Clark to be more open to us, most of her efforts to improve bilateral cooperation have not been made public, indicating genuine commitment.

Fair enough, Bill, sorry for being snarky. It really doesn’t sound all that plausible, given that HC never made any public promises that the Greens would be part of any of her governments*, nor would she have any reason to ‘assure’ the yanks of the opposite. She wouldn’t even have the ability to make such an assurance because she couldn’t know in advance how any election would play out, so she couldn’t know whether or not the greens would be needed to make up the numbers.

*all Labour leaders under MMP have taken the line that its up to the voters to decide who the players are. I’ve never liked that approach and I’d rather we already have an agreement to form a voting bloc with the greens and NZF. ie, be upfront and let voters know that they have two choices, a tripartite coalition of 3 well supported parties or more of the same old shit from whatever desperate, dismal arrangement Key can cobble together post election.

I would also like to see a link Bill. The comment was obviously about the mode of campaigning. I remember clearly Helen Clark and Jeanette Fitzsimons sharing campaign opportunities in 2005 although paradoxically it did not seem to help the Green’s result.

There was something somewhere, from memory quite explicit, about Labour mollifying the US admin through Burnett and whoever in Auckland and Wellington in relation to the Greens while spinning a different line in public. But, can I find it again? Of course not!

Here’s the closest similar reference I can find at the moment.

Clark will ensure that the Greens are kept well away from foreign affairs, defense, and intelligence matters should the Labour-Green coalition form the government.

+100 Te Reo Putake…there is no reason Labour can not , as Cunliffe wants, be in coalition with both the Greens and NZF….in fact Winnie is not sabotaging this…He is after Minister of Foreign Affairs imo…he and the Greens can co-exist . They are no longer in competition for votes

Feel this post is stirring up trouble where there is none.

It is clear to most that Shane Jones is a maverick out on his own…effective in some areas but not PM material…most effective as a support for Cunliffe

Shane looks like he is winning votes for Labour from the soft centre. Cunliffe, Robertson, and Jones had a great dynamic during the leadership race, now with Parker they form a strong team, not using those resources is ridiculous.

Labour needs to strip 5-7% off National for a left block to win, the greens aren’t going to deliver it.

I agree with your sentiments Jones is pulling in soft centre votes. I met some guy last night that fit this very category. They were praising Shane for keeping it real. After having a good robust political debate here was the pleasing result. Out of the 5 men here is how they voted at the last election, 3 party votes National, 1 party vote Green and 1 Conservative. This election the 3 previous Nat voters are party voting Labour, the conservative voter is voting back Labour and the Green remains the same.

The common thread was their liking of Jones dealing to the supermarkets and for 2 of them dealing to the Greens.

Yes I know a few that like him. One good friend dislikes the Greens and takes great joy in winding me up about them. Have to say getting a but sick of defending them. Hughes was being a little twerp the other day and deserved the clip around the ears by Jones. I simply can not believe Normans nonsense about Collin Craig. The Greens have lost cred’s with me lately, through stupid behavior. So if that has happen with me, one can only imagine others thinking the Greens are nut jobs, no offense to the many solid Greenies

The post is very fair to Jones. And the point that he can do some good, has done some good, has made some mistakes that would probably be overlooked has been made fairly. And further indications, that he is possibly becoming a liability rather than an asset when looked at objectively is important.

I think David H sizes up the situation well in the first comment.

Sabotaging the Labour chances of winning the next election Cunliffe needs to shut him up or dump him straight to the furthest back bench with NO portfolios at all.

Commenters should bear this matter in mind and not go off at tangents about whether Peters will be in or out. We certainly don’t want to see Labour voters go to NZF in the idea that he will automatically support Labour. But this is about Jones. And whether he is a fool. He is attacking the Green Party that Labour needs. The Green Party has been the fount of ideas and policies that will help us into the 21st century.
NACT is wanting to remain in the mid 1900’s, Labour with Jones’ thinking would take us further back than that.

He seems to be colonial in his attitudes to the country’s economy, when we were majorly into primary products and extractive industries. This thinking will take us back faster to the 1900’s which we seem to be already sliding towards, with many of us gripping desperately to our present position but our nails are making those horrible rasping noises when scraped on a blackboard. Have we learned nothing all these years to the 21st century? Listening to Jones, he’s a tub thumper from the past.

Keep the thoughts on Labour and Jones. We need people loyal to and supportive of Cunliffe’s leadership. We need people who are encouraged to put ideas forward in frequent meetings of the shadow cabinet and caucus, but not air them in public until granted leave to do so. A controlled strategy is required so that there are no scandals, no odd statements, no brainfarts, no flights of fancy only affordable visions, no chest thumping and appeals to the common man who may be full of alcohol (ie stupid pub talk). And importantly, no lack of cohesion of the Party to pick up on.

There is no down side for Shane Jones or, as long as he is clever, for Labour.

Labour and the Greens share some social democratic ideas which makes them good coalition partners but –

1/ Jones helping Labour reconnect with middle New Zealand – 90% of New Zealanders have no time for the Greens and their unconvincing economic ideas. Being to close to the Greens will therefore turn off that vast majority. Labour needs to remind the electorate that the Green’s are a separate party that may gain the treasury benches at Labour’s grace and favour, and not a faction of Labour. Remember, the ideal situation for Labour is being able to pick and chose from a position of dominance. If on the other hand the election gives the Greens a strong hand, then I am sure they’ll play hardball so they should park the whiny bitches routine. Labour doesn’t owe them diddly squat, and vice versa and the Green sense of entitlement is astonishing for a party that has never been in government.

2/ Positioning himself for the leadership – If perchance Labour loses and it looks like a bunch of senior MPs white-anted the campaign to get rid of Cunliffe then Shane Jones is grounded enough to know there will be an enormous backlash from the party membership, up to and including expulsions of the last of the old-guard new right canker (if Labour doesn’t win, I am picking the fall-out will include a bunch of ABC walking away from Labour and forming a new party, a la Peter Dunne). In any case I wouldn’t want to be an ABC in that case and neither does Shane Jones.

I am quite enjoying watching the supermarkets splutter indignantly and Crusher well up with crocodile tears

Actually focusing on the horse race puts a lot of people off voting. The way to win non-voters is not more “beltway” focused politics as Game. It’s through standing up with conviction on what is important for NZ’s future and for all kiwis, especially the battlers.

True Karol, and are Labour saying when dishing the Greens and cuddling up to Winston that if Labour form a government along with the Greens and NzFirst they will look to National to pass legislation if the Green won’t support it.

So beware people because quite possibly a vote for Labour is a Vote for the same old tired neoliberal bullshit!

You want to keep people like Shane Jones in Labour quiet. Vote Green lets get them to 15%.

Good points Sanctuary. Chaos theory maybe. Introduce a new variable, Jones, changes the path from the trend line and if it doesn’t wipe out the previous position, then it likely adds another grouping to the Labour votes.

But also, think about whether Jones is going to undermine David Cunliffe’s position and desires for the running of the campaign?
If it appears that David has no authority over Jones it then raises questions about whether he can run a stable government under his overall direction or whether there will be various MPs putting their positions up which may run counter to the accepted policies that voters would be expecting. Then voters might stick to what they know, Key and Co. whether they like them or not.

Has Jones got enough self control to keep to a line that he is
given the okay to pursue without constantly introducing new issues that don’t fit with Labour’s decided approach? I think not.Even if given room to tubthump, he won’t accept any reasoned controls and go on emotional bashes that will be embarrassing to the Labour campaign and ultimately to respect for the Party. It’s Jones for Jones, the all-knowing hero I think.

You’re effectively advocating for a divided left and I think that would make an election win for the left impossible. That’s a pretty big ‘downside’ for Labour.
That’s even without accounting for the valuable media time that would be dedicated to how divided the left would be, instead of focusing on the glaring deficits of National.

I’m sure Jones has had a talking to and I would guess that if he rocks the boat further he will be tossed over-board.

But I do smell a Matt McCarten plan to go after Winston’s vote. Or look at tacking centrewards, just in a different way than Cunliffe was doing. It gets up the nose of those who would never vote for Winston, but it is a strategy.

As much as I might have prefered presenting a unified front with the Greens and looking competent, this seems to be what has been trumped for. I mean Julie Anne Genter, Mojo Mathers- not sure about Ward…but if most of the Greens Mps get more attention they won’t lose votes from that.

I think a lot of people are more sympathetic to the Greens and not being environmentally greedy and destroying what we’ve got, but they want to feed their children and grandchildren too. Ergo- solar panneling a winner as it achieves both…

Just an aside. A new policy will have flow-on effects elsewhere. Too many cars round schools, dangerous congestion, now banned. So the cars now park in all the surrounding streets and wait for their children to come taking up all the street parking, Having spare spaces results in cars like flies drawn to a summer picnic.

The problem with Jones cuddling up to Peters is that it makes it more likely that Labour Voters will go over to NZ First.

Erm – no. If they successfully hobble any left turn, then many Labour votes will fall to the Greens. Maybe enough to weaken Cunliffe and the left of the party enough so that post election another leadership challenge transpires.

Can’t escape the feeling that too many of the caucus still don’t get that the caucus no longer has free reign to order ‘their’ patch. That, and that a tide is coming in.

The membership and the affiliates want a true left leader. Cunliffe is one of a very small number in the Labour caucus that fits that bill and that won’t change after the election.
Jones is not leftwing. Jones is in it for Jones.

I think you’re wrong, Lanth. I think Cunliffe would stand again and would get re-endorsed. Assuming, that is, that the loss wasn’t clearly as a result of his leadership (ie some cock up or other or just a pisspoor campaign).

Can’t escape the feeling that too many of the caucus still don’t get that the caucus no longer has free reign to order ‘their’ patch. That, and that a tide is coming in.

The charitable view is that Jones wants Labour to win and is doing what he can to unify the left and right of the party. The uncharitable view is that he is the front man for those who lost the leadership battle but refuse to admit defeat. The uncharitable view would dissolve at once if certain caucus members and Labour spokespeople were to more wholeheartedly accept the wider party’s wishes.

Ad
Ultimately if all you comment on is true and comes to pass it could then lead to Jones standing for Labour Leader. Which I don’t think he has a hope in hell of achieving successfully. This is because there is more to a job than succeeding to it, it’s what intelligence, nous and vision you can apply within it. Jones would be Key in overalls. I don’t like that thought.

One report on him has the headline ‘Toronto mayor singlehandedly makes Canadian politics interesting again’.
The media wanting politics to be a circus, a place of entertainment, so they can sell more advertising, make more money!

That sort of politician will get good air time but doesn’t do anything for ensuring voters get good governance, or that they know what they are getting. Some quips, some swear words, the ordinary man who doesn’t aspire to do as good a job in his position as the ordinary man does.

Some people don’t understand the need for getting ‘good help’ when it comes to employing politicians – that the election is for choosing who will do the job of the country’s management role. It’s hard to do human resources when you don’t think about it seriously. Get to choose someone without jokes, and snide remarks about whoever is the current scapegoat of society, the Greenies, DPBs, unemployed, druggies, whatever.http://rabble.ca/news/2013/11/dark-clown-spectacle-charade-and-dark-politics-rob-ford

This is a comment from Huffington Post Canada google site by Rob Ford that demonstrates the weakness of a system where voters can be distracted from their job of thinking seriously about the country and economy and social conditions, and go for amusement instead.Rob Ford. … So, Who’s Running For Toronto Mayor? … I’ve heard Jimmy Kimmel and various Americans (and Canadians) say, “Well, he seems to be a pretty good mayor”.
Rob Ford … I wanted to talk about politics, but I knew if I did that, I’d likely lose the audience.

While looking further in google I came on this. When you get a poseur in a powerful position he/she will manipulate anything to advance their own interests. So take care who you support and who you vote for! You may be letting a cunning predator get the freedom of the zoo.

Rob Ford, Toronto Mayor in 2012 addressed a meeting on World Press Freedom Day 8 May 2012. He spoke and left. No comments on the aggressive way he had gone after a reporter who had dared to compile information on one of his financial projects.

The mayor has been embroiled in a public spat with the Toronto Star newspaper after confronting reporter Daniel Dale in a public park behind Ford’s house.
Ford has accused Dale of spying on his family, while the Toronto Star maintains Dale was there writing about a piece of parkland Ford has applied to purchase from the region’s conservation authority.http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-mayor-marks-world-press-freedom-day-1.806875

Jones is hopeless in his own patch, you only have to look at the very poor party votes Labour pulled. Shane is being a Maverick and will be threatening to jump to NZF and take over from Winston. I would cut him loose after the election win.

Such defeatism! A confident Labour leadership would go hard for NZF and destroy them as a party. We need more of Jones, not less.

NZ politics is continuing to splinter in part because Labour and National are complacent. Imagine if Labour displayed NZFirst’s patriotic fervour and defensive pride. 6% of voters there for the taking from Parliament’s toupeed Tom Jones. Shane Jones running hard would haul that all back home to Labour.

No need for talk of wiping NZF out they have been good with policies like the Gold Card. All I am saying is Jones need to get off his arse in his own patch and work constructively to pull the votes in his own patch of Northland, he is after all the only Labour MP up there. I can tell you we never see him which is a bloody disgrace!

Labour ( including McCarten) and the Greens should have started strongly mooting the idea of buying the citizen’s of New Zealand’s assets back. I stated this on here earlier in the week. Now Winston takes centre stage by reaffirming any coalition arrangement with National or Labour/Greens will be on the condition our assets are to be coming back to all the people not just the few! Of course he is probably full of crap but it certainly will cause a few headaches for Key-National and the GE sale.

Winston didn’t say it would be a bottom line or “deal breaker” – he hedged on that and, I believe “priority” was the word. And the panel said he might be satisfied with buying back 1% of shares a year, or some such thing.

Winstone did say a few things that were more in line with Labour than National – prioritising NZ in business etc.

I agree with Ad. Shane Jones is amusing and a good foil for Cunliffe, who comes across as a bit of a smug elitist. I vote Green and even I think they act a bit pompous and precious sometimes. I am not offended at Shane having a go at them.

Can I make the point that we aren’t choosing who will sit next to each other at a dinner party.. Who will socialise well with who, and who it doesn’t matter, because they are lucky to get invited anyway.

This is about more than what you think – it’s what the nation thinks and/or feels. Your opinion counts for yourself only. try thinking about Labour working together getting behind David Cunliffe to be Prime Minister. Not like kids at college with favourite teachers or watching a pantomime with Cunliffe cast in the main role, trying to keep up with the sneaky jester playing tricks on him.

This from newsense at 12.1 below summarises important points about Shane Jones which you casual acceptors of him should be considering.Jones- Grew up up north, went to Harvard, Sealord, picked out by Helen, Bill Liu scandal, porn scandal, light bulbs, saying he’d like to do things to John Key’s testicles, being a big pal with the 3rd Degree guys, new missus, sticking it to the Greens, forestry and…

I don’t understand what personal convictions and life philospohy Jones subscribes to and why he’s in parliament. I can understand it making people nervous.

The people I know personally who are most intense in their dislike of SeaLord Jones are Northland Maori. I don’t know one Maori woman who has any time for him at all. This may be a reflection of the people I know, but it’s at least as valid as you laughing at his jokes at the local RSA.

The best thing I’ve ever heard about him is that you can’t take his public statements seriously, because he’s just after attention in what he sees as a big game. The worst can be left to the imagination of the reader.

jones is a sheep in wolf clothing and when the time comes he imo will stick the sharp sword in someones back and swagger to the top, as the right rejoice and jones starts the payback. Short-memory-labourites will eventually wail oh know not another douglas or prebble , or maybe not, they probably supported the policies from those two which cut our country into ribbons. Meanwhile the left will continue on, as the cloak ‘labour’ is used to further decimate the values of the left and cover the actions of the right.

Jones is a fossil and there’s very little difference between him and National. He comes across as sexist and pro mining, the polar opposite to Green values, so no suprise he is dissing us. I expect he would prefer Labour to lose so he can spend the next 3 years making speeches in opposition and building his personal profile than have to work with the Greens.

I cannot understand the support for Shane Jones. Shane Jones is right wing with reactionary ideas and belongs in the National Party. He supports big business and doesn’t give a stuff for the poor and dispossessed, in spite of his rhetoric about supporting extractive industries because they provide jobs. He is very much in favour of foreign fishing vessels plundering our oceans and paying slave wages instead of encouraging a local industry training up young New Zealanders to do this work.

It’s hard to know exactly what he is. I think that is really the disquieting thing. Other politician’s narratives are fairly clear.

Cunliffe- son of a minster done good, went to Harvard, good job, cares about Labour values and compassionate and productive government, holds New Lynn.

Jones- Grew up up north, went to Harvard, Sealord, picked out by Helen, Bill Liu scandal, porn scandal, light bulbs, saying he’d like to do things to John Key’s testicles, being a big pal with the 3rd Degree guys, new missus, sticking it to the Greens, forestry and…

I don’t understand what personal convictions and life philospohy Jones subscribes to and why he’s in parliament. I can understand it making people nervous.

I dont understand what personal convictions and life philosophy Jones subscribes to……..

Well, I do remember him appearing on one of TVNZ’s specialist Maori programmes – probably Marae – shortly before the 2005 Election. He made it very clear that he was “agnostic” on economic policy, being more than happy with the neo-liberal consensus and seemed to imply that he had enormous trouble deciding whether he should be standing for Labour or National. Clearly very much on the Conservative and Neo-Liberal Right of the Party right from the very start.

On the question of NZ First (discussed in various comments above), yeah I agree that it’s exceedingly unlikely that the Left will be able to form a government without Peters this election.

remember when prebble was labours attack dog? The problem with loose units like jones is that they bite everyone – the good, bad and ugly, foe and friend alike and then sit there waiting for a pat – very hard to talk to a dog that likes to bite – usually only one answer even when the hound is well loved by the owners and that is where the blame should be placed – not on jones but on labour’s leadership for trying to use him in that way and if they aren’t using him in that way then sort it out because he thinks it’s his job to bite, bite and bite.

Pointing him is the problem. As Marty says, he bites everyone, and he takes any attempt at discipline as a personal affront to be avenged immediately. He isn’t very bright, he’s utterly self-centred and has the emotional control of a spoilt adolescent.

Eye eye captain.
All hands on deck.
Politics is not a fairy tale we have to make the best of a bad situation.
National have been targeting the greens sucessfully.
Russell Normans attack on Colon Craig backfired and has given him a platform he didn’t have.
Jones is distancing labour from the greens to be able to pick up the soft swing voters.
So we have 3 more years of smarmkey or a moderate left coalition.
MMP forces pragmatism.
That’s the reality.
If you want real left wing policy it would be much easier to get elected at a local body level aka Bruce Jesson.

I’m interested in your assessment of Russel Norman/Colin Craig. I don’t see that Craig’s been given any extra platform – he’s always found it easy to get media attention. And I haven’t seen anyone besides Craig really buy the idea that Norman defamed him – everyone knows he’s got socially conservative ideas.

If anything, there’s been a lot of pundits saying that the issue just proves Colin Craig isn’t well suited for politics if he’s going to sue people over every minor criticism.

As far as I can see and read from Labour’s sustained attack on the credibility of Judith Collins and, by association, John Key is that Grant Robertson has chosen to take Collins down wihile Jones acts as the vocal back up. Cunliffe is doing the hard yards as Party Leader fronting on policy and positioning the Party for the campaign which is of prime importance strategically. The strategy has worked well. There is no conspiracy coming from any fictious factiion within the Party to be seen. Let’s get on with effective campaigning to dispose of the corruption of power we have witnessed from this Key led govt.

While we’re on the attack on Collins; I don’t recall Jones alleging that she was having an affair… he simply stated that the beltway rumours had it that she was using the Hotchin-Oravido mansion as a residence while in Auckland. The repetition of this rumour was akin to the breathless headline in the Herald on Siunday that Cunliffe was implicated in some sort of mysterious deal in the purchase of a property in Omaha. As was demonstrated the Herald’s story was a fabrication of fevered conspiracy theorists from some faceless opinionista for which an apology and withdrawal has never been offered.

For Judith Collins to be on the end of a rumour that links her even more closely to Oravida and her abuse of the Cabinet Manual rules is probably the first time she has ever had to face up to close public scrutiny or even consider what it is like to be on the end of the sort of scurrilous rumour dropping that her friends and associates have been famed for.

Excuse me? Collins is a smug, bullying, elitist who has been caught out blurring the line between personal interest and her political life, but that’s an assessment of her personality, values and actions, not a generalisation based on gender. Maybe this comment was intended as a joke (I hope it was), but please find another frame of reference for your attempts at humour. Perhaps the same blokes at the RSA who we are assured find Jones so affable would chuckle at this, but not all of us are blokes (and hopefully most men on this line wouldn’t be thinking in such sexist terms anyway).

Sorry to be so self-righteous, but casual sexism like this annoys and offends me. That’s one of the reasons I’m not impressed by Shane Jones.

Think about it. Who does Shane Jones speak for? It’s not “the centre” or the “soft national support”. It’s far more specific than that.

The people he speaks for didn’t want to pay the supermarkets a backhander and they definitely don’t want the Greens in govt. Another term of National would suit them fine, but if there’s to be a change then the Greens should be kept out.

agree. having said that it has been interesting to watch countdown’s changing responses tot his thing

start: Nothing to see here done nothing wrong:
second: Nothing to see here done nothing illegal (interesting change)
third: everyone cans ee something here except us and we still dont know what we are accused of?

This is where the consumer legislation is of great use because it doesn’t have to have done anything contrary to say “contract law” BUT if it has created an unfair advantage “legally” (if you see what I mean by legally) it is foul of consumer legislation. Whether its more than a wet bus ticket who knows. Would love to see a class action against countdown by all onecard holders (can easily prove they are customers) …

He must think he has options and is keeping his name to the fore. I guess if Labour/Greens did form a coalition he would be an uncomfortable Minister.

Six months out and the polls are indicating Labout will probably miss out, is Shane backing this outcome ?
It could be do or die time.. if there is an absolute rout then it would follow a major rethink/restructure would be in order.
If there is such an outcome, indeed say a devastating whipping, then surely the party would have to have a radical rethink. I, for one, doubt the party would continue in it’s present form. I know many others are thinking along similar lines. Shane may just be playing his hand brilliantly.

How many Labour activists actively like the Greens? How many dislike them?

How many Labour activists actively like NZ First? How many dislike them?

Labour will need strong turnout from a dedicated volunteer base to win this election. Undermining the enthusiasm of the base by attacking a liked partner and promoting a disliked potential partner is a problematic prospect.

Assuming Shane Jones will never be the leader of Labour and therefore never leader of the country what are his options.

Senior ranking minister in Labour for which he may well have to wait another three years or cuddle up to WinstonFirst and take over when Winston retires (dies)

Shane Jones as leader of WinstonFirst would be able to support both National and Labour so he’d always be in power and have more chances to push through pet projects then he would as merely a ranking memeber of Labour

Not many people will ever be leader of Labour. Those of us who believe in the necessity of the left wing project don’t see attacking Labour from the right as one of our options. What does Jones believe in, apart from himself and his own superiority? While some might admire the faith necessary for that belief, others might see it as totally delusional. I’m in the second camp. He should shut up and go. I don’t care in which order.

If Shane Jones is really committed to doing nothing, he’s the natural successor not to Winston, but to Peter Dunne. I hadn’t noticed him collecting a party behind him. I don’t think he’s a good fit for Labour, most of his fanbase are already committed to voting for the Gnats. It’s hard to measure the efect of validating the right’s attack memes, but he knows it’s bad for his party. Hope Matt has a big carpet and a few promising lengths of supplejack.

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