In my life i have, and am still, dealing with debt. My goal is to get out of debt and to stay that way for the rest of my life. I have thought about how that will apply to any bands that i am in that will sign with a record label (indie or major). So here are my thoughts as to how i think my band, and any band really, should handle the issue of going into debt with any record label.

Bands usually brrow money from record labels when they are on the label to finance a tour or the making of an album. Then they have to pay this money back. Most of the times this leaves the band in debt to the label. My goal is to not go into debt with a label EVER. As a matter of fact my goal is to not go in debt in any way 99.9 % of the time.

I think that a band should find a way to where they dont have to go into debt with their label to make an album or to fund a tour or to distribute their album when they make one. I think that a band should save the money themselves to make their own albums and to finance their own tours. I think that once they get going in this way that they can keep doing this better and better with the money that they make from each new album and each new tour. That way the albums can get better production and the tours can get bigger and bigger.

I think that if a band cant afford to distribute a huge number of albums without going into debt with their label that they should just distribute all that they can until they can afford to distribute more albums. This may take longer to get albums into more fans hands but it will keep the band out of debt with the label and ultimately put more money in the bands pocket. I also feel that if a band cant fund a big tour on their own that they should start small and build it up from there until they can fund a huge tour all with their own money. Again, this would keep them out of debt with the label and this would put more money in the bands pocket.

I think that a band should not take any cash advances from a label because this is just going to put the band over a barrel with the lable for who knows how long. If a lable says that they wont sign a band if they wont go into debt with them and if the band wont take money advances from them i think that they band should not sign with them.

The way that i think is the best way for a band to be on a label is for the label to have the distribution and marketing ability to help the band. But only as so much that the band can pay for it themselves. So that the more money the band has coming in the bigger things get. But not going into debt with the label, or anyone else, to get bigger. That way the label can push the bands albums into bigger markets and advertise in bigger magazines and websites but only with the money that the band gives them.

The whole thing for me is keeping my bands that im in out of debt with labels and anyone else that way we dont end up getting messed over and that way the label does not have leverage over my bands.

drummingman I really hope you don't take this the wrong but this really is one of the craziest things I've ever read on here and you are purely dreaming my friend.....

You have had very little to do with the record industry hey?

My goal is to stay out of debt, well hello welcome to the rest of the billions on this planet.........

For sure you can live without debt if you want to live in your car, never get married and reproduce................it's the big mouse wheel of life and not jumping on well is almost impossible these days I'm afraid...

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I think that a band should find a way to where they dont have to go into debt with their label to make an album or to fund a tour or to distribute their album when they make one. I think that a band should save the money themselves to make their own albums and to finance their own tours. I think that once they get going in this way that they can keep doing this better and better with the money that they make from each new album and each new tour. That way the albums can get better production and the tours can get bigger and bigger.

I nearly stopped reading after this and I'm not going to go into breaking down everything you say............

Pray tell how does the band hope to fund this Tour? Do you have any idea how expensive life on the road is? Finance it yourself, you'd be saving for five years and all of the band having to live on the streets to finance this..........come five years you've missed your chance

Plus what makes you think you'll make money on tour to finance the next one!!

Seriously mate get a drawing pin and stab yourself in the arm to wake yourself up......

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I think that if a band cant afford to distribute a huge number of albums without going into debt with their label that they should just distribute all that they can until they can afford to distribute more albums. This may take longer to get albums into more fans hands but it will keep the band out of debt with the label and ultimately put more money in the bands pocket

Is this a joke...............how many debut albums do you think a band sells after it's been out for a year and they are not touring to promote it because they don't want to get into 'debt' to tour........

I'm sorry but spides666 is absolutely right. When you lean down to the conference room table to sign a contract with a record company you're automatically "in debt" to that company.

Saving up to make a record and go on tour? Never in my life have I heard of that, but if you want to go that way I suggest that you start with a couple of million dollars, not investment capital but your own money. You'll be lucky if you come out with half that amount.

It just doesn't work that way. People all along the chain expect to make money.

I will just have to disagree with you guys. There are ways to do things that dont cause a band to go into debt to make albums and tour. The fact that most bands dont do it that way does not mean its impossible. Its just not the norm. People need to learn to think outside the box and not just do what everyone else does. This way they dont end up in debt like 99% of the bands out there today.

I will just have to disagree with you guys. There are ways to do things that dont cause a band to go into debt to make albums and tour.

Really? Then please, tell us of these ways that a band won't be in debt to their record company by making albums and going on tour.

Where's all the money coming from? Who's paying the people with the marketing expertise, who's paying the people who track radio stations for airplay, who's negotiating with promoters, who's paying the touring crew, who's paying for hotels and food?

If you have answers to these questions then please, share them with us.

Really? Then please, tell us of these ways that a band won't be in debt to their record company by making albums and going on tour.

Where's all the money coming from? Who's paying the people with the marketing expertise, who's paying the people who track radio stations for airplay, who's negotiating with promoters, who's paying the touring crew, who's paying for hotels and food?

If you have answers to these questions then please, share them with us.

The way that i think that it can be done is building it up yourself as a band. I think that the band has to start small and expand as they get bigger. Meaning, self fund the first cd and play as many shows as one can to support that cd. Try to get on small regional tours to promote the album. From there try to get on bigger tours.

With the money that the band makes from the album and tours fund other albums and more tours. As the albums make more money and as the tours gross more use those funds to fund even better albums (meaning production wise) and bigger tours.

The same goes for funding advertisements and press for the band and hiring and road crew and things like that. Most small bands only take 1 or 2 extra people with them on the road at first (usually one roady and a merch person) to help out. Its very DIY and the band does most of the lugging and things like that.

I admit that i dont have all the answers by any means. I am just not content to say "every band goes in debt and so will mine". This does not sit well with me. If i find there is absolutely no other way to do it accept by going into some debt then ok. But im going to do everything i can and learn everything that i can to keep my band from going into debt before i accept that a band has to go into debt to get things done. Again, im leaning as i go but i dont think its good to just accept things in the music business just because something has always been done one way.

Again, im leaning as i go but i dont think its good to just accept things in the music business just because something has always been done one way.

Well then learn this: everybody wants to make money for what they do and that money has to come from somewhere.

If you don't want to get all caught up in the music business then keep buying lottery tickets, I guess. If you win big then you can pay for everything yourself and guess what? You'll be in the music business!

Well then learn this: everybody wants to make money for what they do and that money has to come from somewhere.

If you don't want to get all caught up in the music business then keep buying lottery tickets, I guess. If you win big then you can pay for everything yourself and guess what? You'll be in the music business!

The money can come from starting it small and building it up the way that i said. Its ok if you dont agree with me.

Drummingman, in all honesty this is becoming an all too frequent pattern. You start threads and then disagree with every single, sound peice of advice you ever get offered. You don't find the answers you want to hear and so start another thread with a different title.....only to draw the same conclusions. Everyone else is clueless and you somehow know better.

I'm all for forging "your own path", but the constant refusal to take on ANY advice is wearing mighty thin.

Lets break a couple down, hey.
The "drumming shoes' thread: Not one solid peice of advice was taken on board. A good dozen posters told you to save your pennies, yet you'd spoken to ONE person "who said they were great" and that was enough. So I said "ok then, you sound like you're convinced, if you want them, buy them". Have you?

The "where do I move to start a christian band" thread (or threads....there were a couple). You flipped between at least 6 or 8 cities by the end. You started with one or two, then proceeded to throw darts at a board and just name one city after another. I told you how to get in contact with christian musos in each city......advise ignored. Have you moved yet? Have you made ANY attempt to find those which you seek?

The "how to make a living playing drums thread". plenty of advice offered in that one. first and foremost, was to get a band together. Again, nothing. Just solid, sound advice ignored because you "don't agree".

The "Demon Drive" thread.....in fact, two threads asking the exact same question....purely because you didn't want to accept what you heard first time round.

I like you mate, I really do (it's the sole reason why I keep posting even though it falls on deaf ears), but it's time to get real and stop wasting people's time. You get replies on all topics that are offered in good faith, by people wanting to help and wanting to see you succeed. Yet you don't act on a single thing. It's wearing thin man. At 34, it's time to get realistic......wake up and smell the roses mate. If you want to make this happen, then MAKE IT HAPPEN, but you've at least gotta make a start somewhere and it can't be done whilst your disagreeing with every single soul that is trying to help you along. Get off your computer and live a little......take the plunge and see where it leads. I don't care what you choose to do.......but please, for the sake of my sanity, just do. The constant indecision is killing me.

now i've never been signed by a major label, but i'm under the impression that when you sign that contract your basically an employee. they tell you when you'll be touring, when your shows are, what days and what times and they fund it. in return they take a percentage of the earnings as cost and profit and you get whats left over after everybody has taken their cut.

when you release an album they advance you the money to record, they produce those cd's, distribute them, cover all the radio play and in return they take the money that is made, deduct the advance, again take their cuts across the board and you get whats left.

i know i don't know all the facts of the contracts but i don't see being in debt to them unless you bail on a tour or fail to record your albums in which case your in breach of contract and the last thing you have to worry about then is being in debt. they take their money back before you see a penny. so i'm pretty sure your logic there is slightly scewed...

for your dreams of not being in debt, thats called starting your own label, lots of people do it. become an indie band. it'll cost you a small fortune, i've done plenty of DIY shows and their not cheap, license are a bitch, even worse if it's liquor. advertising sucks and then finding half way decent people to run the show while you play is a nightmare, bartenders who do more drinking then serving, security thats busier getting stoned out back then doing what your paying them for, decent sound guys. all that costs money and lots of it. making cd's is actually easy once you got the master recording, hell i picked up the stuff off ebay reasonably cheap and do all our own plus several other bands 1000's at a time, cost you on average $1.50 give or take 75 cents depending on the booklet and artwork and such for a retail ready shrink wrapped product. now going around to music stores especially giant chain stores is a bitch and normally takes forever just to get in contact with the proper people. it can be done all on your own if you got a ton of cash upfront and a butt load of time to dedicate but none the less it can be done.

now if you wanna sign with a label that won't give you any money and won't do jack to help you and never expects anything back from you, i do know of one........

The money can come from starting it small and building it up the way that i said. Its ok if you dont agree with me.

It's not a matter of not agreeing with you. It's a matter of you not knowing what you're talking about. Your ignorance of how the whole music business combine works is profound to say the least. You're chasing rainbows, brother.

The title of this thread is "Getting Funded By a Record Label." But what you're saying is that your intention is to not be funded by a record label so you won't owe that record label any money.

In the personal world, sure, credit card debt can be bad for many people in their personal finances. But in the business world, debt is not just common, it's considered a part of almost any business plan.

All accounting comes down to Assets=libailities+equity, and this is true for every company in the world.

Drummingman, in all honesty this is becoming an all too frequent pattern. You start threads and then disagree with every single, sound peice of advice you ever get offered. You don't find the answers you want to hear and so start another thread with a different title.....only to draw the same conclusions. Everyone else is clueless and you somehow know better.

I'm all for forging "your own path", but the constant refusal to take on ANY advice is wearing mighty thin.

Lets break a couple down, hey.
The "drumming shoes' thread: Not one solid peice of advice was taken on board. A good dozen posters told you to save your pennies, yet you'd spoken to ONE person "who said they were great" and that was enough. So I said "ok then, you sound like you're convinced, if you want them, buy them". Have you?

The "where do I move to start a christian band" thread (or threads....there were a couple). You flipped between at least 6 or 8 cities by the end. You started with one or two, then proceeded to throw darts at a board and just name one city after another. I told you how to get in contact with christian musos in each city......advise ignored. Have you moved yet? Have you made ANY attempt to find those which you seek?

The "how to make a living playing drums thread". plenty of advice offered in that one. first and foremost, was to get a band together. Again, nothing. Just solid, sound advice ignored because you "don't agree".

The "Demon Drive" thread.....in fact, two threads asking the exact same question....purely because you didn't want to accept what you heard first time round.

I like you mate, I really do (it's the sole reason why I keep posting even though it falls on deaf ears), but it's time to get real and stop wasting people's time. You get replies on all topics that are offered in good faith, by people wanting to help and wanting to see you succeed. Yet you don't act on a single thing. It's wearing thin man. At 34, it's time to get realistic......wake up and smell the roses mate. If you want to make this happen, then MAKE IT HAPPEN, but you've at least gotta make a start somewhere and it can't be done whilst your disagreeing with every single soul that is trying to help you along. Get off your computer and live a little......take the plunge and see where it leads. I don't care what you choose to do.......but please, for the sake of my sanity, just do. The constant indecision is killing me.

In good faith and with the best intentions,

Pocket.

I get peoples thoughts and sometimes i disagree with them. Thats not wrong to do.

I plan on buying the shoes.

I have chosen a city after doing a bunch of research.

I wont be getting a band together till i get to that city.

I had forgotten that i made the first demon drive thread (i did not start another one just cause i did not like what i heard in the first one).

Im not wasting peoples time. Im just seeing what they think. Does not mean that i have to agree with them. I have a plan and i am working towards that plan as is.

[quote=azrae1l;736484]now i've never been signed by a major label, but i'm under the impression that when you sign that contract your basically an employee. they tell you when you'll be touring, when your shows are, what days and what times and they fund it. in return they take a percentage of the earnings as cost and profit and you get whats left over after everybody has taken their cut.

when you release an album they advance you the money to record, they produce those cd's, distribute them, cover all the radio play and in return they take the money that is made, deduct the advance, again take their cuts across the board and you get whats left.

i know i don't know all the facts of the contracts but i don't see being in debt to them unless you bail on a tour or fail to record your albums in which case your in breach of contract and the last thing you have to worry about then is being in debt. they take their money back before you see a penny. so i'm pretty sure your logic there is slightly scewed...
QUOTE]

The way that a band ends up in debt is they get that advance and they get the tour support and then they have to pay it all back. Usually they dont make enough off of the album and the tour to do so. So they go in the hole with the label

It's not a matter of not agreeing with you. It's a matter of you not knowing what you're talking about. Your ignorance of how the whole music business combine works is profound to say the least. You're chasing rainbows, brother.

The title of this thread is "Getting Funded By a Record Label." But what you're saying is that your intention is to not be funded by a record label so you won't owe that record label any money.

So what would you even need a record label for, exactly?

What credits do you have to say that im wrong and your right?

The whole purpose of having a label would be for promotion and distribution. As well as an in to bigger markets that would be hard for one to get to on their own. But it could be done on our own dime just through the label.

We could go round in circle forever and I have very little interest in 'drumming' (excuse the pun) how the World works...

I recall your Christian Metal Band thing and I too thought that was madnes but hey ho, it's down to you...........

if you do ever get on this tour with no money please share how you did it because you'll become the musical equivilant of Bill Gates

Prime example here yourself

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Try to get on small regional tours to promote the album. From there try to get on bigger tours.

You'll need to grease the right palms in order to do that mate............so save even more dollars for that mate.........

Many years ago a certain band called Def Leppard wanted 12 thousand pounds from a support band to open for them!!!!! Yep that's right they weren't paying the support band, the record label had to pay Def Leppard!!!!!! it didn't happen by the way..........

Your forgetting the biggest point of all................heard the term 'The Music Business', recall the last word there.................'Business'..............ever yone wants their coin or they wont get out of bed........

The music business is even more ruthless now, what with piracy etc most bands are living on the bread line...........fast forward twenty years they'll be no rock stars in Beverly Hills, very few anyhow

Goole an artist called Imogean Heap I think is her name............she has sold out venues here in Aus and the UK etc and couldn't afford to tour Europe...........it would have cost her twenty thousand pounds up front.............can you save that?

She couldn't................tickets for her tour were $38 or something after promoters, venue hire etc she was left with $16 of that ticket price to pay crew and her band, transport, hotels the list goes on...................Sold Out Tour and she's losing money...........

Quote:

The way that a band ends up in debt is they get that advance and they get the tour support and then they have to pay it all back. Usually they dont make enough off of the album and the tour to do so. So they go in the hole with the label

The cost of recording an album with a named producer, releasing singles, filming videos, getting airplay, promotional tours...........all this isn't just with money it's woth contacts, contacts you wont have..........

Get your calculator out mate because as far as I am aware you haven't even got a band together so why bother with this..............you haven't even got other band members on the same page as you..............

Fast foward six months ask your guitarist who works at subway how much money he can get together?

Unless you can get together $100k plus don't even waste your time............

We could go round in circle forever and I have very little interest in 'drumming' (excuse the pun) how the World works...

I recall your Christian Metal Band thing and I too thought that was madnes but hey ho, it's down to you...........

if you do ever get on this tour with no money please share how you did it because you'll become the musical equivilant of Bill Gates

Prime example here yourself

You'll need to grease the right palms in order to do that mate............so save even more dollars for that mate.........

Many years ago a certain band called Def Leppard wanted 12 thousand pounds from a support band to open for them!!!!! Yep that's right they weren't paying the support band, the record label had to pay Def Leppard!!!!!! it didn't happen by the way..........

Your forgetting the biggest point of all................heard the term 'The Music Business', recall the last word there.................'Business'..............ever yone wants their coin or they wont get out of bed........

The music business is even more ruthless now, what with piracy etc most bands are living on the bread line...........fast forward twenty years they'll be no rock stars in Beverly Hills, very few anyhow

Goole an artist called Imogean Heap I think is her name............she has sold out venues here in Aus and the UK etc and couldn't afford to tour Europe...........it would have cost her twenty thousand pounds up front.............can you save that?

She couldn't................tickets for her tour were $38 or something after promoters, venue hire etc she was left with $16 of that ticket price to pay crew and her band, transport, hotels the list goes on...................Sold Out Tour and she's losing money...........

The cost of recording an album with a named producer, releasing singles, filming videos, getting airplay, promotional tours...........all this isn't just with money it's woth contacts, contacts you wont have..........

Get your calculator out mate because as far as I am aware you haven't even got a band together so why bother with this..............you haven't even got other band members on the same page as you..............

Fast foward six months ask your guitarist who works at subway how much money he can get together?

Unless you can get together $100k plus don't even waste your time............

I still disagree with you that a Christain metal band cant be hugely successful.

I dont understand why it is so hard for people to understand that it is a building process. And as the band starts to make more money that will open more doors and contacts for us. We wont be starting out with a million dollors. We have to build up to that point.

Of couse its a business. But there are different ways to do business. All business is not done in the same way. There are ways to do things that a lot of epople dont do them that need to be explored.

I know Imogean Heap. i know that she has done well thus far. I think that if she keeps building it up she will get to where she can tour europe at some point. It may take some time but it can happen.

The thought of forming my own label is looking more interesting to me at this point.

to start out small, to do a show of roughly 1000 to 2000 people, it costs me on an average of about $8000 not including alcohol and depending on just how much equipment and personnel you need for the show. now given i own my own sound system large enough to accommodate that pretty easily, i have 2 decent sound guys in my band and most of the other bands that we do this with also have several guys that can do the job, several fairly big friends that do security for free and we sell our own merch. i'd say it will probably be more then $8000. if we actually fill the place which we usually don't get 2000, average around 12-1500 per show, we sell tickets for $10-$15 depending on how many bands, usually 6-8 we can make $20,000 for a pretty good show so take out my initial investment of $8000, then wages for the people we do have to hire and all the little things, we're usually left with around $10,000 divided up between 8 bands is $1250 per band then take out what each band had to pay out of pocket for merch that didn't get sold we might make $150-200 a person after it's all said and done. results probably very but thats a rough estimate of what your looking at.

shirts cost on average $6 bucks to print, more for larger sizes, cd's if you buy i've seen anywhere from $2-$6 bucks each. if you do your own the right equipment will cost you around $2500 and supplies around $1500 for i think 1000 cd's but i'd have to double check the quantities, might be 1500.

for the most part the rest is all leg work making phone calls to city and state offices for permits, venues for rates and bookings, advertising in which ever way you can get it, placing orders and all that good stuff.

selling your cd's in stores, you'd have to call the major outlets corporate office and get their supplier, then call them and find out what you need to get them to start dealing your product which will require previous sales and demand statistics and god knows what else but your going to have to prove what you have sells and that they want it. i only deal with 2 local stores that cater to local bands so i'm not completely sure of what a full blown distributor is going to require.

there's starting small, if you can swing the money and time, go for it there's nothing stopping you from trying. but i can tell you we've lost money doing this several times and others we couldn't pull it off at all due to legal reasons others we made money so there is still no guarantee...

The thought of forming my own label is looking more interesting to me at this point.

Go for it.

The down side is, anyone can can do it, and usually do. Forming a label is easy. Making it successful is another story.

The advantage of a traditional label, even a small one, is distribution and marketing.

I've "DYI"-ed it a few times. And while there has been some success in getting the music to a certain point, it becomes apparent that even a small labels wold be a big help in getting credibility.

DJs, radio people, the public at large, are hit with 100's of submissions every week of bands who think they have what it takes. No matter how good your material is, getting people to actually pay attention is a battle.

If you present yourself as "this really good band" that's nice, but it doesn't stand out.
If you can presented as "Name label's new recording artist" then it brings more credibility which has a better chance of inspiring a person to open the package and listen to the music.

One hard aspect of not being on a label is labels send out thousands of promo compilations of all their newer bands too all the key people in your market, along with flyers, posters and such. As a DIYer, that's your competition for a person's listening time, along with all the other bands who are doing the same thing you are.

Stores (the few that still exist) aren't going to show much interest in stocking your independent CD. But they will buy stock from repeatable labels through distribution networks.

It's possible, but difficult.

And if you want to do it without debt, I hope you either win the lotto, or come from a very rich family.

to start out small, to do a show of roughly 1000 to 2000 people, it costs me on an average of about $8000 not including alcohol and depending on just how much equipment and personnel you need for the show. now given i own my own sound system large enough to accommodate that pretty easily, i have 2 decent sound guys in my band and most of the other bands that we do this with also have several guys that can do the job, several fairly big friends that do security for free and we sell our own merch. i'd say it will probably be more then $8000. if we actually fill the place which we usually don't get 2000, average around 12-1500 per show, we sell tickets for $10-$15 depending on how many bands, usually 6-8 we can make $20,000 for a pretty good show so take out my initial investment of $8000, then wages for the people we do have to hire and all the little things, we're usually left with around $10,000 divided up between 8 bands is $1250 per band then take out what each band had to pay out of pocket for merch that didn't get sold we might make $150-200 a person after it's all said and done. results probably very but thats a rough estimate of what your looking at.

shirts cost on average $6 bucks to print, more for larger sizes, cd's if you buy i've seen anywhere from $2-$6 bucks each. if you do your own the right equipment will cost you around $2500 and supplies around $1500 for i think 1000 cd's but i'd have to double check the quantities, might be 1500.

for the most part the rest is all leg work making phone calls to city and state offices for permits, venues for rates and bookings, advertising in which ever way you can get it, placing orders and all that good stuff.

selling your cd's in stores, you'd have to call the major outlets corporate office and get their supplier, then call them and find out what you need to get them to start dealing your product which will require previous sales and demand statistics and god knows what else but your going to have to prove what you have sells and that they want it. i only deal with 2 local stores that cater to local bands so i'm not completely sure of what a full blown distributor is going to require.

there's starting small, if you can swing the money and time, go for it there's nothing stopping you from trying. but i can tell you we've lost money doing this several times and others we couldn't pull it off at all due to legal reasons others we made money so there is still no guarantee...

This is a gem of a post. Obviously lots of experience in the real world of music promotion here. Things that don't often get considered when fantasizing about promoting your own event. I've got acouple friends who are promoters, and even this sketch that azrae1l has spelled out is pretty bare-bones depending on what kind of show you are doing. Again, very good post.

1.Lacking experience, wisdom, or judgement.
Surely you're not naive enough to believe adverts!
2.(of art) Produced in a simple, childlike style, deliberately rejecting sophisticated techniques.
I've always liked the naive way in which he ignores all the background detail.

I still disagree with you that a Christain metal band cant be hugely successful.

After reading this entire post, I have to jump in at this point.

Define 'successful'. If your primary goal is to be financially comfortable, why bother finding a Christian band? Just find a regular metal band. What is your main purpose for being a part of a Christian band?

And I believe that even if you are a successful Christian artist, you're still not well-known. Just look at their current top songs... How many people on this forum do you think know who Chris Tomlin, Matt Maher, or the Newsboys are? Even more so with Christian metal.

I advise getting some reading material about the business, there are lots of good books out there; as others have said, your understanding of the realities seems a little sketchy at the moment.

Remember that advance payments to artists come in different forms, most importantly recoupable and non-recoupable. If your band gets given a non-recoupable advance then it's happy days - that payment is essentially a grant which is not to be paid back. However, whether you get this kind of payment depends on your potential selling power.

Get good before worrying about advances.

Get some touring together before courting labels. They will want to see a strong fan base. Touring can be done on a shoe string, be prepared to sleep in vans though!

Define 'successful'. If your primary goal is to be financially comfortable, why bother finding a Christian band? Just find a regular metal band. What is your main purpose for being a part of a Christian band?

And I believe that even if you are a successful Christian artist, you're still not well-known. Just look at their current top songs... How many people on this forum do you think know who Chris Tomlin, Matt Maher, or the Newsboys are? Even more so with Christian metal.

Im a devout Christian and i want to share my faith and world view through my life and my music. And i also love metal. Those are the 2 main reasons why i want to start or join a Christian metal band.

Some of the bigger rock/ metal bands that are Christain are: P.o.d, Underoath, Norma Jean, Living Sacrifice, Zao. While some of these bands are less known then others, some have been very big. So being in a Christain metal band does not mean that the band cant reach a huge level while staying true to their beliefs and to their musical vision.

I advise getting some reading material about the business, there are lots of good books out there; as others have said, your understanding of the realities seems a little sketchy at the moment.

Remember that advance payments to artists come in different forms, most importantly recoupable and non-recoupable. If your band gets given a non-recoupable advance then it's happy days - that payment is essentially a grant which is not to be paid back. However, whether you get this kind of payment depends on your potential selling power.

Get good before worrying about advances.

Get some touring together before courting labels. They will want to see a strong fan base. Touring can be done on a shoe string, be prepared to sleep in vans though!

I will admit that there is a lot that i dont understand. If i have to go into debt, if that is the only way, to make it work then that is what i have to do. Im just really tying to avoid that.

I am reading a really good book called tour smart that has a lot of good info in it that i like. And i hope to read more books over the course of this year and a half (im sure i will always be reading to get a better understanding of things that i need to get better at).

I am ready to sleep in a van and on floors to make this thing happen. I want to tour and get out on the road. There are just some things that i have to take care of before i can do that.

1.Lacking experience, wisdom, or judgement.
Surely you're not naive enough to believe adverts!
2.(of art) Produced in a simple, childlike style, deliberately rejecting sophisticated techniques.
I've always liked the naive way in which he ignores all the background detail.

I admit that i dont understand everything. But you seem to have the "cant do it" attitude (you have shown this in another thread as well). You seem to be your typical naysayer. And thats fine if thats how you want to live your life. I choose to live my life thinking about what i can do, not what i cant do.

If everybody believed that something could not be done just because others told them it could not then where would the world be? Nowhere, thats where.

I posted this quote from paul stanley from Kiss in another thread. But i think its worth posting again for you to read:

"Listen to your inner voice. You know within yourself what you should be doing. The people around you who tell you that things are impossible are the ones who failed, and people who fail always need somebody else to cry with. Those are the people you dont need around you. You need people around you who will spur you on and will tell you what is possible".

I think this is one of the best things that i have ever heard anyone say. And its something that i think every naysayer should read and really think about. Im not trying to bust on you, like you did no me. Im saying that if you look at what can be done instead of what you think cant be done its going to get you farther in what you really want to achieve in your life. I cant change how you think (thats up to you), but i dont have to agree with how you think either.

Im a devout Christian and i want to share my faith and world view through my life and my music.

Okay, wait just a minute. Have you been writing Christian metal songs, songs that are ready for rehearsal with a band? How many Christian metal songs do you have that are ready for rehearsal with a band? Enough for three sets, maybe? Enough to record an impressive CD?

Because if don't have any of that then you're pretty much chasing rainbows my friend. I don't like coming across as harsh but you are a classic case of putting the cart before the horse.

If everybody believed that something could not be done just because others told them it could not then where would the world be? Nowhere, thats where.

Who ever said "IT CAN'T BE DONE"? Who? Where? In which one of your many threads?........Please, show me.

This is where we digress my friend. Across all your threads, I've never seen a single soul tell you straight up that "it can't be done"........never. You confuse practicality for negativity.....the two are vastly removed. A good start would be to learn the difference.

But I'll tell you this. I stopped believing a long time ago that Santa, or the tooth fairy or whatever magical entity you want to portray, was gonna just up and hand it to me on a platter, no questions asked. If you want something you've gotta get off your arse and work for it. At 34 years of age, this should be self evident.

The simple fact is, that you won't. You haven't got a band, you haven't got music, at this point in your "career" you've got nada! Get the important issues sorted first (a band would be a great start, then I'd concentrate on the MUSIC) and then worry about the "what if's".

That's pretty much all I've tried to tell you all along. Yet, those practicalities get lost in dream time and everyone gets branded as a naysayer as a result. It's so frustrating!

A successful career CAN be made, there's NO disputing that. But NOT without taking that first step. Get a band, write music, get a product that people want to hear. Until you accept that, the rest is just polite (though albeit, delusional) conversation.

Okay, wait just a minute. Have you been writing Christian metal songs, songs that are ready for rehearsal with a band? How many Christian metal songs do you have that are ready for rehearsal with a band? Enough for three sets, maybe? Enough to record an impressive CD?

Because if don't have any of that then you're pretty much chasing rainbows my friend. I don't like coming across as harsh but you are a classic case of putting the cart before the horse.

I have pieces of songs but not full songs. I will need a band for that s i dont play guitar (though i do come up with riff ideas in my head and sing them). As is i live out in the sticks and i am going to be moving to Atlanta in december of 2011 (its going to take me that long to get some things together first).

Who ever said "IT CAN'T BE DONE"? Who? Where? In which one of your many threads?........Please, show me.

This is where we digress my friend. Across all your threads, I've never seen a single soul tell you straight up that "it can't be done"........never. You confuse practicality for negativity.....the two are vastly removed. A good start would be to learn the difference.

But I'll tell you this. I stopped believing a long time ago that Santa, or the tooth fairy or whatever magical entity you want to portray, was gonna just up and hand it to me on a platter, no questions asked. If you want something you've gotta get off your arse and work for it. At 34 years of age, this should be self evident.

The simple fact is, that you won't. You haven't got a band, you haven't got music, at this point in your "career" you've got nada! Get the important issues sorted first (a band would be a great start, then I'd concentrate on the MUSIC) and then worry about the "what if's".

That's pretty much all I've tried to tell you all along. Yet, those practicalities get lost in dream time and everyone gets branded as a naysayer as a result. It's so frustrating!

A successful career CAN be made, there's NO disputing that. But NOT without taking that first step. Get a band, write music, get a product that people want to hear. Until you accept that, the rest is just polite (though albeit, delusional) conversation.

People dont have to come right out and say it cant be done in order for me to see that that is what they mean (im not saying everybody that has posted by any means. Just some). Personally, what i see some as calling practicality is nothing more then negativity just under a different name. Its certain people in this thread tearing others down because they believe that they themselves cant do it. So they want to convence others that they cant as well. Everyone that has ever been successful at something has heard the same things from people that dont believe that they can do it so they try to tear others down. Its not a new thing in the world. What you call "dream time" i call forward thinking. Just because i dont think like you does not mean that i am wrong. Of course there is a lot that i still need to learn. But if you had it all figured out you would be rolling in money playing huge stadiums with a huge band. Are you? I have a feeling the answer is no. If im wrong please post a pic of your platinum album.

I know its going to take hard work. There are things that i have already accomplished (like getting my music degree). I dont expect anyone to just hand me what i want to achieve.

You keep bring up my age as is if one is ever too old to be successful. This is just not true by any stretch of the imagination. Look at colonel sanders. He was cooking chicken at age 40 out of his service station( not sure if he owned the station and not exactly sure when he started cooking chicken) but he did not franchise Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants until he was 65 years old. And he did it on 105.00 from his first social security check. Then he turned around and sold the corporation for 2 million dollars. One is never too old to do something.

I am working my way towards a goal. Just because i am not there yet does not mean that i will never be there. In this time of my life i am working some things out that need to be worked out (one being a hand injury). After this season i will be moving to Atlanta to get things going there.

Your dead wrong that i wont work for what i want. And yor also dead wrong that ive got "nada". Your sitting in your ivory tower and passing judgment on me and frankly you have no idea of what you are talking about. Just because i dont have a band right now does not mean that i am not moving forward. I had a band not too long before i left virginia and moved to florida. That band did not work out. Its real easy to yack away at me on your keyboard when you dont know me personally. And you dont know where i am at and what i have done and what i am doing.

I dont have to convence you of anything. Its not important to me that i prove anything to you. Whats important is that i prove to myself that i can be successful.

I dont take kindly to be ripped up one side and down the other just because i dont agree with the masses and blindly follow what im told on the internet.

Idealism.
Its good to have ideas, but sometimes the reality of a situation is not compatible with your ideals. I do not believe anyone here is telling you that your dreams are impossible or that you can't do it. Most people are telling you that the world does not work in an ideal manner that you believe. If you wanna make it, you gotta play the game.

I guess what I am trying to say is, you seem like a nice guy but you have some unrealistic ideas about life. Don't get me wrong, I am a deep thinker about things & I am out here giggin all the time, tryin to live the dream & make it too, but I am playing the game. I would rather play covers for money, & work on my original music on the side.
In an ideal utopian world things would be different, all musicians would only be creative, play what they feel when they felt like it & not worry about image or money. It sucks but that is how it works. Especially in the southeast U.S. So if opportunity knocks go for it, but don't let your ideals hold you back. Do some research on Thomas Jefferson for example of idealism vs. reality.

I dont take kindly to be ripped up one side and down the other just because i dont agree with the masses and blindly follow what im told on the internet.

Then why are you here in the first place asking for affirmation? It isn't like people are looking for you to lecture or in your view criticize. In fact you've even taken this road show to other forums. I just saw this identical thread on the Roddy Forum and they're telling you the exact same thing.

And please, no one is ripping you. If you believe that then your skin is way too thin for the music business. And that's not up for discussion. That's a stone cold fact.

You want rips? Go visit an old WFD thread. This is nothing. In fact everyone here has tried to be nice to you.

Really man, what's this all about? If this is a marketing ploy there are better ways of doing that. Besides it's long past time that you show some of your music so people can objectively help you decide if all this talk is worth it anyway. Now I am of course aware that if it's not up to spec you're going to tell us we don't get that either, but at least we will know if talking to you is a waste of time and can simply ignore the next 8-10 threads you post.

But if you're sensational we can keep trying to work on you in a positive manner.

However, I will tell you this flat out. I am just now starting to know all the kinds of people you're hoping to connect with, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that they're going to say your presentation up to now is naive and amateurish. Sorry, but I'm telling you the truth.

Besides, if you're already on board with a plan, why aren't you out there doing it instead of wasting all this time trying to sway strangers on the Internet? Just get on it with it and prove everyone wrong.