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Zen and Psychology

Before I read Robert Aitken's, "The Path of Zen," diving into ancient Sutras, and finally joining the Sangha, I was a very cynical and intellectually driven man. The human mind has always fascinated me (probably stemming from trying to understand myself initially) and psychology was the only study in college that called to me. I learned a lot from all the classes, but I always sensed that something critical was missing. Practicing Zen, I uncovered these missing pieces.

Psychology has gotten a bit more light-hearted over the years, with the introduction of Positive Psychology and other schools, but many perspectives still paint the individual as a victim who has no choice regarding who they are. Whether who we are is influenced by our genes, conditioning or other environmental aspects, we are subject to our rigid psyches. That... is... nonsense. Psychologists attempt to ease the suffering of others through therapy and medication, but they fail to see and express the root causes of suffering and dissatisfaction in general. Clients could really benefit from study, discourse and meditation instead. They convince people that there is something "wrong" with them, that the behavior and underlying thoughts must be "corrected." This presents some kind of future ideal of who a person will be, rather than working with the here and now.

Present moment awareness, the Four Noble Truths, the Three Marks of Existence, the Eightfold Path and the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination fit snug with psychology and if implemented in the mental health field they could benefit many. To sum it up, Dukkha is the root of determining mental health.

I believe, John, that there are many Zen Teachers who are also licensed psychologists and therapists of various kinds, and a whole bunch of folks are trying to do so. There are dozens of folks that come to mind in fact, many students of Joko Beck for example.

I cannot tell you how much they are succeeding in the mix (sometimes I feel that the result is that the Buddhism gets lost in a bunch of California psycho-babble with many of these folks), but some good things might come from the mix.

I recognise some of the trait of psychologists you paint but it does seem to rather sway into the negative. Psychology and dharma have two distinct, but overlapping, goals.

Psychology aims to help people understand behaviours that are interfering with their ability to live life and return them to 'normal' functioning' Dharma, on the other hand, takes 'normal functioning' people and removes the extraeneous suffering.

The overlap occurs at the end of psychology with minor neuroses. They will often use tools we would recognise from the dharma such as impermanence and the lack of absolute reality of thoughts to help people with mild to moderate worries. Try teaching meditation to a moderately to severely depressed or neurotic person, though, and it can be harmful to expose them even more to their thoughts and inner world.

If someone is so neurotic that their behaviour is affecting their life then should not a psychologist suggest 'corrections' to this behaviour to return their life to functioning such as the case of OCD? The patient is the one who comes to them because they feel something is wrong with them. Psychologists know about the normal 'worried well' and any good practitioner will not convince a healthy person they are ill. I have never heard psychology describe the psyche as rigid (in that case, what point therapy?) but we are products of our environment and genes just as Buddhism holds us to be by karma.

I don't at all believe your last sentence to be universally true. Childhood trauma and later events can skew perception to such a degree that counselling and psychotherapy may be a necessary step before even setting foot in the world of the dharma. I do, however, agree that certain Buddhist ideas can add to the therapeutic armoury and this is already in progress. As well as actual Buddhist psychologists, mindfulness (MBSR and MBCT) incorporates ideas from the dharma and I am sure more is to follow. How well this is done is an open question but psychologists are not averse to taking ideas that help patients and I have met dozens of psychologists and counsellors on retreats and in dharma groups looking to better understand why people suffer.

I am a graduate student and practicing psychologist. I think some of your points, Nameless, are well made. However, the art and science of psychotherapy are always changing, and most psychologists that I know, read, and work with do not consider people "victims of a rigid psyche" or anything like that. I see a lot of overlap between Buddhism in general and Psychology.

You might be interested in the works of Stephen Hayes, one of the pioneers of integrating meditation and mindfulness into psychotherapy.

One cautionary point that I would make, is that clinical psychology is a SCIENCE as well as a method for treating mental illness and/or promoting human flourishing. We don't have the luxury of exclusively applying our own personal experiences, powers of reason, or religious beliefs when working with individuals. To some extent these things must have some empirical basis. That's what makes the work of Hayes and others so exciting. However, it also means we have to put our money where our mouths are in terms of completing well-designed research studies if we are going to claim that Buddhism can heal all psychological issues.

I took an art class once in high school. I just could NOT draw that damn bicycle. Teacher told me, "Stop looking at the page. Look at the damn bicycle."

As a practicing Doctor of Oriental Medicine I would just also like to add, that there is a tendency to think of things from a very myopic view in Western terms. In Oriental Medicine we would not likely separate mental health from overall health. Everything is interconnected. Not just within the body, but without as well. Diet, climate, pathogens, seasons, astrology, for example all come into play. From the traditional perspective you cannot really separate the trees from the forest. If your system is not balanced that would definitely affect your mental outlook as well. That being said, I don't want to come off being "new agey". Oriental Medicine is OLD agey. There are many self promoting health gurus out there who are trying to suggest that all health issues are spiritual or mentally based. The Mind and spirit can definitely affect the health of the body, but the converse is ALSO true. It is ALL inter-related. For example, if one experiences a deep sense of loss from say the passing away of a loved one,and they can't let it go they may very well end up having problems with their large intestine. In this situation Zen practice would be highly beneficial. On the other hand a person who has some type of phyisical intestinal disorder might be more prone to hoarding behavior because they literally and figuratively can not let it go.

No wisdom to share here, I just wanted to say that I like your post and where you are coming from, especially the point about the link between the GI systems and major life stressors. I'm training as a Clinical Health Psychologist and I think that the whole new initiative in healthcare to provide "medical homes" and "integrated care" is basically us remembering that there was a time when health was handled holistically.

I took an art class once in high school. I just could NOT draw that damn bicycle. Teacher told me, "Stop looking at the page. Look at the damn bicycle."

Psychology aims to help people understand behaviours that are interfering with their ability to live life and return them to 'normal' functioning' Dharma, on the other hand, takes 'normal functioning' people and removes the extraeneous suffering.

I like this, Andy. It reminds me of the old quote attributed to Freud, which I shall paraphrase because I cannot remember it exactly: "the point of psychotherapy is to take someone's abject misery and turn it into ordinary, everyday suffering."

So, the Dharma transcends psycotherapy, but psychotherapy gets one to a place where they can appreciate the Dharma. Maybe?

I would just like to add John that there are as many schools/orientations in Psychology/Psychotherapy as in Buddhism in general.

I do recognise some of what you say in CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) although that is the form of therapy most aligned to mindful meditation in the UK.

I do believe that the relationship between Zen and psychotherapy is a fruitful one and that each path can enrich the other.

I have Joseph Bobrow's book but haven't had the chance to read it. It has a lot of acclaim. As to California psycho-babble - that sort of talk tends to come out of the mouths and pens of those who haven't put their training in but present as therapists. It is very off putting and misleading.

I believe, John, that there are many Zen Teachers who are also licensed psychologists and therapists of various kinds, and a whole bunch of folks are trying to do so. There are dozens of folks that come to mind in fact, many students of Joko Beck for example.

I cannot tell you how much they are succeeding in the mix (sometimes I feel that the result is that the Buddhism gets lost in a bunch of California psycho-babble with many of these folks), but some good things might come from the mix.

Thank you for that Jundo, I'll have to check out that book. I have heard rumors of Zen Therapy recently.

Originally Posted by Karasu

Friend John,

I recognise some of the trait of psychologists you paint but it does seem to rather sway into the negative. Psychology and dharma have two distinct, but overlapping, goals.

Psychology aims to help people understand behaviours that are interfering with their ability to live life and return them to 'normal' functioning' Dharma, on the other hand, takes 'normal functioning' people and removes the extraeneous suffering.

The overlap occurs at the end of psychology with minor neuroses. They will often use tools we would recognise from the dharma such as impermanence and the lack of absolute reality of thoughts to help people with mild to moderate worries. Try teaching meditation to a moderately to severely depressed or neurotic person, though, and it can be harmful to expose them even more to their thoughts and inner world.

If someone is so neurotic that their behaviour is affecting their life then should not a psychologist suggest 'corrections' to this behaviour to return their life to functioning such as the case of OCD? The patient is the one who comes to them because they feel something is wrong with them... I have never heard psychology describe the psyche as rigid (in that case, what point therapy?) but we are products of our environment and genes just as Buddhism holds us to be by karma.

I don't at all believe your last sentence to be universally true. Childhood trauma and later events can skew perception to such a degree that counselling and psychotherapy may be a necessary step before even setting foot in the world of the dharma. I do, however, agree that certain Buddhist ideas can add to the therapeutic armoury and this is already in progress.

Nicely said Karasu. I guess what I mean by rigid is that they assume that all things are causal, that we are the product of our environment and genes. This is true to a large extent, but I think that in many cases a person's natural disposition has a dramatic effect on what will influence them and in what manner. That's why you could have two siblings who were raised in the same environment and disciplined in a similar way, yet they may react completely different from each other. And in regardless to mental illness, harmful or disruptive behavior can be corrected, but before that's done a client should be shown how to feel comfortable with their illness. In many cases, once someone is labeled with a mental illness, the symptoms worsen initially.

Originally Posted by Clark

if one experiences a deep sense of loss from say the passing away of a loved one,and they can't let it go they may very well end up having problems with their large intestine. In this situation Zen practice would be highly beneficial. On the other hand a person who has some type of phyisical intestinal disorder might be more prone to hoarding behavior because they literally and figuratively can not let it go.

That's very true Clark. Stress and depression can especially cause harm to the body. Migraines, asthma and ulcers are just a few of the effects of stress. When stressed, we're also more prone to infection because the immune system functions slower than usual. Zazen could be especially beneficial to those suffering from an anxiety disorder, though as Karasu said, perhaps not necessarily for those with clinical depression. Mindfulness may be a good medicine in that case.

Originally Posted by willow

I would just like to add John that there are as many schools/orientations in Psychology/Psychotherapy as in Buddhism in general.

I do recognise some of what you say in CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) although that is the form of therapy most aligned to mindful meditation in the UK.

I do believe that the relationship between Zen and psychotherapy is a fruitful one and that each path can enrich the other.

The cognitive perspective has really taken the field by storm. It seems to have a solid foundation in which the scientific method is still used, yet there's still some room to move around haha. I have kind of soft spot for Gestalt therapy as well. Thank you all for commenting on this, it's been a pleasant and eye opening conversation. Looks like I've got some more books to tag onto the reading list

Zazen could be especially beneficial to those suffering from an anxiety disorder, though as Karasu said, perhaps not necessarily for those with clinical depression. Mindfulness may be a good medicine in that case.

I actually believe that Shikantaza might be excellent medicine for depression ... at least the aspect of letting dark thoughts go without getting tangled in them, not buying into the "dark hole" feeling, allowing things to be and finding the beauty in life more easily. I speak from personal experience many years ago ...

I actually believe that Shikantaza might be excellent medicine for depression ... at least the aspect of letting dark thoughts go without getting tangled in them, not buying into the "dark hole" feeling, allowing things to be and finding the beauty in life more easily. I speak from personal experience many years ago ...

Often I comment here based on my experience with Oriental Medicine, but that is all it is. I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking or certainly drum up virtual clients. I would just like to comment here based on your link. Yes! A synergistic approach is best. Nobody WANTS to be on meds, but if meditation, counseling, natural therapies are NOT working you need to get some help. Doesn't mean you should stop sitting though

In Oriental Medicine "depression" is often thought to be an issue with what we call Liver Stagnation. And what is Liver Stagnation? It is the constant emotional rigidity we develop when things do not go our way and we end up constantly frustrated. This prevents the smooth flow of ki throughout the body which can cause emotional and physical disease. If it looks like Dukkha, sounds like Dukkha, smells likes Dukkha perhaps it is! This realization is one thing that drew me to studying and now practicing Zen in the first place. I see it in my practice every day.

I didn't read through all the responses, but you might be interested in looking up Naropa University in Boulder, CO. They offer Buddhist based psychology masters. In my area of the mountains, many many many mental health practitioners incorporate Buddhist philosophy from all disciplines into their treatments. I work in the detox with a large mental health group and find a lot of the principles very helpful in a hands on way.

I didn't read through all the responses, but you might be interested in looking up Naropa University in Boulder, CO. They offer Buddhist based psychology masters. In my area of the mountains, many many many mental health practitioners incorporate Buddhist philosophy from all disciplines into their treatments. I work in the detox with a large mental health group and find a lot of the principles very helpful in a hands on way.

gassho
Seizan

Regarding Naropa University, I would caution that they are not an APA accredited institution for their psychology program. This is not a commentary on the quality of the educational experience, but it may limit job opportunities, licensing, later applications to PhD programs depending on where you are trying to go with your degree.

I took an art class once in high school. I just could NOT draw that damn bicycle. Teacher told me, "Stop looking at the page. Look at the damn bicycle."

I actually believe that Shikantaza might be excellent medicine for depression ... at least the aspect of letting dark thoughts go without getting tangled in them, not buying into the "dark hole" feeling, allowing things to be and finding the beauty in life more easily. I speak from personal experience many years ago ...

Very well said sir. Some of these ideas are incorporated into new psychotherapy frameworks such as Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy mentioned above, so there is a precedent for these sorts of approaches being researched for treatment of depression.

I took an art class once in high school. I just could NOT draw that damn bicycle. Teacher told me, "Stop looking at the page. Look at the damn bicycle."

I am a graduate student and practicing psychologist. I think some of your points, Nameless, are well made. However, the art and science of psychotherapy are always changing, and most psychologists that I know, read, and work with do not consider people "victims of a rigid psyche" or anything like that. I see a lot of overlap between Buddhism in general and Psychology.

You might be interested in the works of Stephen Hayes, one of the pioneers of integrating meditation and mindfulness into psychotherapy.

One cautionary point that I would make, is that clinical psychology is a SCIENCE as well as a method for treating mental illness and/or promoting human flourishing. We don't have the luxury of exclusively applying our own personal experiences, powers of reason, or religious beliefs when working with individuals. To some extent these things must have some empirical basis. That's what makes the work of Hayes and others so exciting. However, it also means we have to put our money where our mouths are in terms of completing well-designed research studies if we are going to claim that Buddhism can heal all psychological issues.

Just mulling this over. I read Russ Harris's 'The Happiness Trap' (forward by Steven Hayes) recently - because a relative is beginning her training as an ACT therapist and I was interested to find out more of this approach.

I liked this book very much because it was very clear and concise and also because it was clearly presented as secular. Jon Kabat-Zinn walks a closer line between buddhism and mindfullness training. I do feel that all of this takes very positively from buddhism in a way that is acceptable for those who do not have a need for the spiritual aspect.

But I can't help feeling the spiritual aspect is key - and if buddhism alignes too closely with the rigours of empirical science that key aspect may get lost?

Just mulling this over. I read Russ Harris's 'The Happiness Trap' (forward by Steven Hayes) recently - because a relative is beginning her training as an ACT therapist and I was interested to find out more of this approach.

I liked this book very much because it was very clear and concise and also because it was clearly presented as secular. Jon Kabat-Zinn walks a closer line between buddhism and mindfullness training. I do feel that all of this takes very positively from buddhism in a way that is acceptable for those who do not have a need for the spiritual aspect.

But I can't help feeling the spiritual aspect is key - and if buddhism alignes too closely with the rigours of empirical science that key aspect may get lost?

Just thinking ..........................

Gassho

Willow

I agree with you Willow, and I think it is a complicated spectrum of issues as you said (not just Buddhist v. Nonbuddhist). I think that clinical psychology has benefitted and will benefit from stealing concepts and practices like a bandit from Buddhist traditions. After all, there is the shared goal of reducing suffering. But the larger spiritual aspect may be lost, and I think that that's okay too. One thing I'm learning in my on-the-job therapy training is that a therapist needs to be mindful of 1) where their competencies lie and 2) what the boundaries of their job are. The same goes for a religious leader of spiritual teacher. A good therapist can use certain treatments based on Buddhist thought to help those who are struggling with emotional issues and leave the larger spiritual questions to spiritual teachers. A spiritual teacher can help someone in their practice or to follow a spiritual path, but feel comfortable suggesting a mental health professional if psychological issues are present.

I read an article on sweeping zen about how Buddhist practitioners can strive to have "two specialties," zazen and something else (sewing; food preparation; chanting; koans). Having formal training in psychological counseling from a Buddhist perspective, and being licensed (like yourself) perhaps means that your second specialty is in treating Buddhists who are struggling with psychological issues. I am of the bias, however, that not every spiritual teacher should feel confident or comfortable in treating psychological problems.

I took an art class once in high school. I just could NOT draw that damn bicycle. Teacher told me, "Stop looking at the page. Look at the damn bicycle."

My main concern about many forms of "mindfulness" and other like meditation courses and therapies stripped of their Buddhist elements is that they miss the real "powerhouse" medicine this Way has to offer, to wit, such teachings (and embodying of) "non-self" "emptiness" "Dukkha/the Four Noble Truths" "impermanence" the Precepts and Bodhisattva Vows and the like.

Without allowing someone to fully transcend the small "self", and to truly embody "emptiness", meditation is often little more than a relaxation technique or watered down medicine.

David Loy and Ron Purser had some additional criticisms of the "mindfulness" movement in a recent essay ...

Just to add my two cents with the point of view of someone who lacks both wisdom and knowledge...

I think psychology works like modern medicine in the way that it tries to fix things when it's all messed up.

I come to this realization because in what little I have seen, people go to see a professional whenever they are up to the neck in depression or mental issues.

Don't get me wrong, this is fantastic because I know for experience that a good professional is great help and often heals the mind. Years ago I was depressed and dealing with family issues. Thanks to my psychologist, I was able to sort it all out and make good decisions when needed.

Buddhist practice, in the other hand, gives you a framework to live by so you prevent mental issues and have a whole and peaceful life.

Please note that I say mental, not biochemical or neurological issues. That's a complete different thing that should be addressed by psychiatrists.

But then again, I know nothing about psychology.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

Thank you all for your responses in this thread! It's true that Buddhist influenced psychology may lack the "powerhouse" that's within the core teachings. Mindfulness training alone is inspired by Zen, but definitely lacks the depth of practice. Another trick for a psychologist or counselor who is Buddhist could be to implement Buddhist concepts without stepping on the client's own spiritual views. Like giving a someone medicine hidden in food haha. Is that disingenuous? Kinda sorta. That brings up the question: should someone present Buddhist views without the underlying history and terminology to others in general? Such as bringing up the Four Noble Truths without calling them that or touching on the aspect of freedom from rebirth through enlightenment?

That brings up the question: should someone present Buddhist views without the underlying history and terminology to others in general? Such as bringing up the Four Noble Truths without calling them that or touching on the aspect of freedom from rebirth through enlightenment?

Gassho, John

I think it is okay. The reason is not meant to deceive anyone. Rather, it is that many of the Buddhist Teachings and insights, such as the Four Noble Truths, Emptiness, Impermanence, Etc., can carry their own weight without being associated with any particular group, religion or philosopher, etc.

It is a bit like saying that the "Golden Rule" (Do Unto Others ...) can stand on its own non-religious, secular legs even though it is found in the Bible, was professed by many religious thinkers.

Jundo I agree wholeheartedly. I find one of the most exciting parts of Zen practice is that it arose from an observation of life and how the mind (subjectively) seems to function. So many of the truths can really resonate for patients without any need for acceptance of a buddhist religious point of view.

For example, negative and self-defeating thoughts and beliefs often underlie depression and anger issues. What a wonderful thing to learn, that thoughts really are just THINGS and they zip in and out of their own accord without any need to hold onto or act on them.

I took an art class once in high school. I just could NOT draw that damn bicycle. Teacher told me, "Stop looking at the page. Look at the damn bicycle."

This is a great thread that offers lots of food for thought! I think a therapist that can help to deepen one's insight into self and then encourage change is a treasure to find. I've sat on both chairs and from experience have seen several modalities of treatment work.

Personally, I spent several years, off and on, seeing a therapist who guided me around the block from events and people in my childhood that certainly did affect what happened in my adult life, and understanding that has helped me enormously in emotional and spiritual growth. Like Clark, I believe the mental, physical and spiritual aspects are all tied together. Plus, look where it's all led me: TREELEAF!

Oh, and I do need to set the record straight. Unlike some, who seem to believe psychobabble comes from and resides in California, it just ain't so. It's in all 50 states, the UK and every coffeehouse in the world.

Buddhist practice, in the other hand, gives you a framework to live by so you prevent mental issues and have a whole and peaceful life.
That is very smart, Kyonin. Speaking from my own personal experience, it is true. The more it can be prevented the better.

Buddhist practice, in the other hand, gives you a framework to live by so you prevent mental issues and have a whole and peaceful life.
That is very smart, Kyonin. Speaking from my own personal experience, it is true. The more it can be prevented the better.

Gassho,
Treena

I feel strongly about this. Whether or not psychotherapy and the science of psychology is more appropriate for certain psychological problems or not, there isn't enough focus on LIFESTYLE and PREVENTION and THRIVING. These are some of the fruits of good buddhist practice maybe?

I took an art class once in high school. I just could NOT draw that damn bicycle. Teacher told me, "Stop looking at the page. Look at the damn bicycle."