What is the benefit to you, or anyone else, of limiting options for other people? Why is this such a good thing that you actively want to block others from purchasing an Apple product in the manner in which they prefer? It's stupid comments like these that really piss me off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iDave

Pity the people still on dial-up.

Absolutely. As others have mentioned, if you live in a metropolitan area, you probably don't have a clue as to how many people are still limited to dial-up or perhaps low speed DSL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz

They can simply take the bus to the nearest Apple Store and use WiFi. Problem solved. They can make a party out of it and go with all of their friends.

I'm pretty sure you're just being sarcastic, but if not, same as above. There are millions of people in this country, let alone other countries, where the nearest Apple store is not within a reasonable drive, especially just to upgrade your OS. At least with a thumb drive available they can have it shipped out.

----

But here's the biggie. How is someone who doesn't use plastic supposed to buy ML? Seriously. If I can't go to a local store and plunk down my $29 or $69 or whatever and walk out with my own copy of the OS that's not imprinted with some personal goddam "AppleID", then they've lost a sale. I'll pirate the damn thing. And I don't say that lightly, because I really, really want to support companies like Apple that put out high quality products. I'm happy to pay money for great products!

What about teens? They can't own a credit card. So now they can't upgrade their OS without a parent using their card and having the parent's personal information tied to their kid's computer?

Having the OPTION to purchase, download and install an OS purely online is a great option. Yes, unlike Slurpy, I think having choices that are useful for people other than myself is a good idea. But limiting to only online purchases is a terrible, terrible idea. I hope they get enough public flack to reconsider this policy.

All good points. And I suppose since I don't like, need, trust or want iCloud, I should never update my operating system. Good thing, because I don't particularly care for iOS anyway and it looks like Mac OS X will soon BE iOS. Put me in the EXTREMELY small minority, even though I do have broadband.

I'm also in the minority, but I agree with some of this as well (although I DO like much of what iOS offers on a portable device). I have very little interest in most of what ML will offer. No interest in any of the cloud stuff whatsoever. I don't want my shit sitting on other people's servers. Period. My life doesn't belong to Apple any more than fricking Facebook or Google. My computer, my life, my data. End of story.

What I do like is the AirPlay Mirroring, which I've been wanting for a long time, although I'll need to see what the requirements are (i.e. no fucking AppleID or live connection to the net required!). I just want to play family home movies (and the occasional rip) from my laptop to the big screen. Also, better Notes/Reminders is great - but only local, not in the damn cloud. And as a shareholder I'm very happy to see the improved features for Chinese users because I think it will help sell a lot more units.

Does anyone know if there's a utility that will easily point any of these tools to a privately hosted server, rather than iCloud? Does iCloud use standard protocols, like WebDAV, etc., so someone could potentially host their own private server for syncing a couple devices?

But here's the biggie. How is someone who doesn't use plastic supposed to buy ML? Seriously. ...

What about teens? They can't own a credit card. So now they can't upgrade their OS without a parent using their card and having the parent's personal information tied to their kid's computer?

I'm assuming for starters that you live in the US and not some place in Africa where internet is hard to get, or Australia where rural internet is provided by 2G speed GSM networks.

The credit card question is obvious, go buy a prepaid card with the cash.

As for physical media, usb drives, etc. A dial-up modem or 2G GSM can download 480MB/day, a full DVD will be downloaded in 8 days. But GSM networks are often super-expensive (5 cents per KB, no thank you.) It's VERY cheap to mail a USB stick in the mail, much cheaper than sending a DVD. I imagine that Apple will simply make USB drives available on demand (eg "ship me a backup of this software product on a USB drive for 10$") Considering that you can buy 8GB drives for 10$.

What I do like is the AirPlay Mirroring, which I've been wanting for a long time, although I'll need to see what the requirements are (i.e. no fucking AppleID or live connection to the net required!). I just want to play family home movies (and the occasional rip) from my laptop to the big screen. Also, better Notes/Reminders is great - but only local, not in the damn cloud. And as a shareholder I'm very happy to see the improved features for Chinese users because I think it will help sell a lot more units.

There is no requirement to use an iCloud ID!

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

The person in charge of IT should know how this works or you need to get a new person to run the IT. You DL it once and you can even burn the installer to a SL-DVD (at least with Lion you can), a USB flash drive, a HDD, or just keep on a network share, all using just Disk Utility. You can even have one Mac run OS X Server and all the app and OS updates can come from it. It's a cake walk for IT.

This is all listed as "unsupported" hack by apple. We have the same issue. We have to upgrade 54 XServes which do have 10.6 server to 10.7 and we can't even get an install media for 10.7 server. We can only downgrade from Server to Desktop and then upgrade to server again or we have to expose the private servers to the "evil" public internet. And no, the update servers which redistribute locally do not redistribute Apple store items. Only software update items. This really sucks in the corporate environment.

And today I had the luck of playing with <unreleased> software and had a kernel panic when booting it the first time (well its beta so no blame there) but going back to 10.7 release was a major issue. Recovery boot partition: doesnt show up as boot option. Recovery USB stick (done with APple's tool) not an option too. I wonder how you want to reinstall MacOS X when you are in a hotel in the middle of africa and you just screwed up your OS. And yes this happens. Even if the hotel might have super fast internet so it only takes 30 minutes to download, you are still screwed because hotel WLAN's require web authentication before you can use them.

In other words it's a MUST to have a proper install media. Think of privacy as well. You can not purchase a mac anymore without Apple knowing who you are and what software you buy. Pretty scary too.

For me, I have no problem purchasing MacOS X and install media on USB stick even at a premium price. But there must be an option not a hack such as 10.7 server upgrade which simply doesn't exist.

This is all listed as "unsupported" hack by apple. We have the same issue. We have to upgrade 54 XServes which do have 10.6 server to 10.7 and we can't even get an install media for 10.7 server. We can only downgrade from Server to Desktop and then upgrade to server again or we have to expose the private servers to the "evil" public internet. And no, the update servers which redistribute locally do not redistribute Apple store items. Only software update items. This really sucks in the corporate environment.

And today I had the luck of playing with <unreleased> software and had a kernel panic when booting it the first time (well its beta so no blame there) but going back to 10.7 release was a major issue. Recovery boot partition: doesnt show up as boot option. Recovery USB stick (done with APple's tool) not an option too. I wonder how you want to reinstall MacOS X when you are in a hotel in the middle of africa and you just screwed up your OS. And yes this happens. Even if the hotel might have super fast internet so it only takes 30 minutes to download, you are still screwed because hotel WLAN's require web authentication before you can use them.

In other words it's a MUST to have a proper install media. Think of privacy as well. You can not purchase a mac anymore without Apple knowing who you are and what software you buy. Pretty scary too.

For me, I have no problem purchasing MacOS X and install media on USB stick even at a premium price. But there must be an option not a hack such as 10.7 server upgrade which simply doesn't exist.

It's not a hack and not unsupported.

Quote:

If you have several Macs on your network and are worried about Lion’s lack of restore media (and if, for some reason, you don’t want to make your own restore DVD or USB stick as we discussed in our Lion review), the NetBoot service provides you with one of the few supported methods for getting around it.

All you need to do is keep a copy of the Lion installer downloaded from the App Store. As long as you’ve got it stored somewhere on a drive that is readable by the computer, you can fire up the System Image Utility and see it listed as an image source.

And what's with this crap about "proper install media". It's amazing you guys take the time to post about what you perceive as an impenetrable problem but can't take a second to actually find a solutions.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

I wish Apple would release ML tomorrow so all those who claim they are going to jump ship to Linux do so. I mean seriously, after reading the comments on this thread it is unbelievable how helpless some people are. If you can't figure out how to upgrade your system with all the resources now available, good luck figuring out Linux or whatever your plans are... It's not like you're going walk in to a Walley World and pickup a copy of Ubuntu, but alas I'm feeding the trolls...

Just say no to MacMall. They don't honor their promotions and won't respond to customer inquiries. There are better retailers out there.

Apple used to make your life easy. Now they make it more difficult. Snow Leopard is going to to be Apple's Windows XP.

That does a great job of summarizing my complaint.

It isn't a big deal to me to pay $40 or $100 for physical media at a local store if my computer crashes when I am traveling. Downloading 4GB over a slow, unreliable Internet connection might not be an option sometimes.

It isn't a big deal to me to pay $40 or $100 for physical media at a local store if my computer crashes when I am traveling. Downloading 4GB over a slow, unreliable Internet connection might not be an option sometimes.

PayPal me $40 and I'll send you Lion on a DVD.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

This is a non-issue to most really. What? Are we still living in the pass? I personally, would want to get rid of physical media altogether. Wasting of space. You just download it once and store in on a HDD. Simples. If you have a slow internet, then plenty of alternatives if you don't want to go with the flow. For example, use your friends' faster internet or use your local Apple store (or reseller, or public library if all fails) to download yours.

I like having the System Install on physical media, simply as a back-up copy or a last-case scenario in case my entire system crashes, etc, I lose a hard drive, and have to re-install, etc.

IN the case the at all else fails and I do not have an internet connection, I want some sort of backup on hand. That's why I always thought it was important to have the System Discs for any Mac I bought, new or used...very important.

reading the thread? It's no wonder it has taken Apple so long to start killing off optical media when it takes folks so long to grasp the fact that the disc you get is arbitrary. There isn't anything inherently special about an optical disc. It contains the same data as your own, homemade backup of the OS would.

What is the benefit to you, or anyone else, of limiting options for other people? Why is this such a good thing that you actively want to block others from purchasing an Apple product in the manner in which they prefer?

I'm sure if Apple had offered OS X 10.2 Jaguar in a box made of actual jaguar fur, that would have appealed to some people. I'm still glad they didn't though.

Producing and distributing physical media is a resource-intensive practice. I'm glad to see Apple moving away from that.

The credit card question is obvious, go buy a prepaid card with the cash.

No, it's not obvious unless you've done it personally and know for a fact it works. Most places I've tried to order something from online (with electronic delivery) DO NOT work with pre-paid cards. I don't know why, and it's quite frustrating. My sample size is relatively small, but I'd say 3/4 of what I've tried did not work because the card was not accepted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misa

As for physical media, usb drives, etc. A dial-up modem or 2G GSM can download 480MB/day, a full DVD will be downloaded in 8 days. But GSM networks are often super-expensive (5 cents per KB, no thank you.) It's VERY cheap to mail a USB stick in the mail, much cheaper than sending a DVD. I imagine that Apple will simply make USB drives available on demand (eg "ship me a backup of this software product on a USB drive for 10$") Considering that you can buy 8GB drives for 10$.

For many, the point of not using plastic is anonymity, to stay out of databases, etc. Shipping requires giving contact info, including a physical shipping address, so no, not happening. Not to mention that each copy acquired digitally very likely has an ID record embedded in some encrypted way in the product itself. The only way you can guarantee a "clean" copy of any software is to buy a physical copy via retail. I'm perfectly happy to walk into a store, hand them my money and get a product; if that's not possible I don't believe I'm left with an acceptable option to purchase -- at any price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX

I think this correct in that the USB drive was a poor seller and that Apple will likely not push it with ML, but I seem to recall Apple saying that Lion would be exclusive to the Mac App Store, too, before later having a USB thumb drive version available for sale.

I very strongly hope this is what ends up happening. Many people are obviously fine with digital distribution, but there are a few cases where it's moderately-to-incredibly cumbersome. Personally, I would almost certainly just live with my current OS until I was forced to upgrade machines.

I'm sure if Apple had offered OS X 10.2 Jaguar in a box made of actual jaguar fur, that would have appealed to some people. I'm still glad they didn't though.

Producing and distributing physical media is a resource-intensive practice. I'm glad to see Apple moving away from that.

So glad to see that your ideals of saving 10 cents worth of 1/4 ounce of plastic benefits you enough to want to completely remove the option to purchase said product for some people.

I understand your attempt at an analogy, but a box with fur and a box without fur both provide the same product with the same means of purchase and delivery, one resource-wasteful and one not so much. In that case I'd agree it's fine to say tough shit for someone who wants the furry one. That's not the case here because it's the means of purchase and delivery that are potentially being altered, with one purchase option simply disappearing. Hopefully it doesn't come down that way at the end of the day.

And what's with this crap about "proper install media". It's amazing you guys take the time to post about what you perceive as an impenetrable problem but can't take a second to actually find a solutions.

I'm always thinking I know about macs more than normal people but you people always beat me.you Smart a$$e$ !!!

But thanks for that NetBoot install image of lion which I didn't know about and I made a USB install of it as I wanted to install lion on few machines. Now for mountain lion in future I can install in this way...

So glad to see that your ideals of saving 10 cents worth of 1/4 ounce of plastic benefits you enough to want to completely remove the option to purchase said product for some people.

I understand your attempt at an analogy, but a box with fur and a box without fur both provide the same product with the same means of purchase and delivery, one resource-wasteful and one not so much. In that case I'd agree it's fine to say tough shit for someone who wants the furry one. That's not the case here because it's the means of purchase and delivery that are potentially being altered, with one purchase option simply disappearing. Hopefully it doesn't come down that way at the end of the day.

Are you suggesting shipping trucks, even aeroplanes full of boxes with software DVD's is not more wasteful than offering digital downloads of said software?

I'm sure there's more to it than "10 cents worth of 1/4 ounce of plastic".

reading the thread? It's no wonder it has taken Apple so long to start killing off optical media when it takes folks so long to grasp the fact that the disc you get is arbitrary. There isn't anything inherently special about an optical disc. It contains the same data as your own, homemade backup of the OS would.

Are you quite sure all Lion install discs are the same? Has anyone done a full bitwise comparison on two different Lion DVDs burned by two different purchasers? Or a bitwise comparison on a store-purchased thumb drive installer with one created by an online purchaser?

I suspect people have done this, I'm honestly looking for the answer. Anyone got a handy URL?

Sigh. You like to NOT have physical objects. Fine, I'll try not to ridicule you for that attitude. Others have very good reason to NOT want to hassle with digital distribution, but you seem to have a problem with that and think everyone should think just like you. Guess what? Everyone is not you, nor do they have the same set of needs, restrictions, lifestyle, or infrastructure. Try thinking outside your own frame of reference before making smartass comments.

So glad to see that your ideals of saving 10 cents worth of 1/4 ounce of plastic benefits you enough to want to completely remove the option to purchase said product for some people.

I understand your attempt at an analogy, but a box with fur and a box without fur both provide the same product with the same means of purchase and delivery, one resource-wasteful and one not so much. In that case I'd agree it's fine to say tough shit for someone who wants the furry one. That's not the case here because it's the means of purchase and delivery that are potentially being altered, with one purchase option simply disappearing. Hopefully it doesn't come down that way at the end of the day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyorpb

Are you suggesting shipping trucks, even aeroplanes full of boxes with software DVD's is not more wasteful than offering digital downloads of said software?

I'm sure there's more to it than "10 cents worth of 1/4 ounce of plastic"

In the case of the thumb drive, a little, but not much. The packaging is probably worse than the product itself, but we're pretty good about recycling plastic over here.

But you only addressed my offhand comment, and not the meat. Changing payment and delivery methods to something completely different that may not be convenient or possible for some people. Having both options is great. Allowing the bulk of purchasers to use a more efficient delivery method (that still uses resources, but better), is good progress. Closing off physical purchase entirely would suck big time.

What I do like is the AirPlay Mirroring, which I've been wanting for a long time, although I'll need to see what the requirements are (i.e. no f.. AppleID or live connection to the net required!). I just want to play family home movies (and the occasional rip) from my laptop to the big screen. Also, better Notes/Reminders is great - but only local, not in the damn cloud. And as a shareholder I'm very happy to see the improved features for Chinese users because I think it will help sell a lot more units.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX

There is no requirement to use an iCloud ID!

But will AirPlay Mirroring require an AppleID, like HomeSharing? I was all excited about some of the potential there, but not going to screw around with AppleID crap.

It's long, but worth reading/skimming the whole thing to understand how bad it can get. The part I related to the most was near the end. Made me feel a little bit warm inside to know others feel the same way:

"I just want all my apple devices and software to work together and to not have to give up my identity to you to make this happen. It's totally unfair to have to provide you with all my personal details (and my credit card) on a web site to just make a few devices work together."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blah64

Does anyone know if there's a utility that will easily point any of these tools to a privately hosted server, rather than iCloud? Does iCloud use standard protocols, like WebDAV, etc., so someone could potentially host their own private server for syncing a couple devices?

But you only addressed my offhand comment, and not the meat. Changing payment and delivery methods to something completely different that may not be convenient or possible for some people. Having both options is great. Allowing the bulk of purchasers to use a more efficient delivery method (that still uses resources, but better), is good progress. Closing off physical purchase entirely would suck big time.

I didn't address "the meat", because I don't necessarily disagree with it. I would applaud it if Apple offered a service where you showed up at a store with a USB stick and copied an OS installer onto it upon receiving payment for it.

However, I don't feel that, just because some people oppose to an online distribution model, for whatever reason, there is a great need to keep store shelves worldwide stocked with boxed copies of software.

Download the installer and burn to usb or dvd is the way to because Apple handicapped the store bought sticks. If you use the store bought sticks to upgrade to Lion you MUST use the stick for any reinstalls. The 'net-restore" feature does not work. Wish I would have know that before I dropped the $70.

Very progressive. Lead the way, Apple. Just make sure Apple users can still bring their Macs to an Apple Store to download the OS if they don't have fast broadband. Though Mac Pros might be harder to lug around

Yeah and might I add that Apple Stores are not as ubiquitous as McDonalds either. Mine is 87.9 miles away from me and this is in New York!

Download the installer and burn to usb or dvd is the way to because Apple handicapped the store bought sticks. If you use the store bought sticks to upgrade to Lion you MUST use the stick for any reinstalls. The 'net-restore" feature does not work. Wish I would have know that before I dropped the $70.

What do you mean it doesn't work? Is it just not included as part of the software on the stick? Then just download that recent firmware update and get it on your own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smalM

No physical media no buy!
I bought a Mac not a DOS box.
It's plug 'n' play not downloading, burning, copy to USB, etc.

For my own reasons, I wanted a Lion thumb drive. It wasn't available in the retail stores.... so I didn't buy. You don't always have internet access, and I think it is asenine to prevent people from purchasing physical copies.

It can work, but it really makes things unnecisarily difficult.

Digital downloads of software are the best thing since sliced bread. Where have you been for the last 5 years or so? The Mac App Store is great, as long as the program can stay within the guidelines without getting dumbed down. I had so many old update disc around I could wall paper a house. Not anymore. Digital downloads are the norm today.

I suspect you are just one of those people who hates technology change. I know the type I was one too!

"I just want all my apple devices and software to work together and to not have to give up my identity to you to make this happen. It's totally unfair to have to provide you with all my personal details (and my credit card) on a web site to just make a few devices work together."

Would still love to hear anyone's reply on this.

I understand you're paranoid and probably in need of Prozac or something like it, but the last time I heard of or I made an AppleID, you didn't need a credit card. Just an email address that you can get free from Yahoo with no real identifying info required. So get someone you trust, if that's at all possible, to put the OS on a disc for you. End of story!!

Edit: As Tallest Skil has pointed out to me, there was a time when you did need a credit card to make an AppleID. I made another one for iCloud last month and didn't need it.

Personally I don't have an issue with internet speed, but the closest Apple Store is 2100km (as the crow flies) away from me, and 99% of that is over water, where does one find this magical bus?

Oh yeah, you're oddly literal about everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hummerp

Download the installer and burn to usb or dvd is the way to because Apple handicapped the store bought sticks. If you use the store bought sticks to upgrade to Lion you MUST use the stick for any reinstalls. The 'net-restore" feature does not work. Wish I would have know that before I dropped the $70.

This shouldn't affect the Internet Recovery that is built into the firmware of the majority of Macs. It also won't affect those using a corporate installer built into OS X Lion Server. The only thing I recall it not doing is creating the Recovery HD partition during the installation process since you already have an external disk to the boot partition for which use for recovery. However, the Internet Recovery option will create this for you as the first step to reinstalling Lion over a network.

Q: Why did you buy the flash drive instead of just making your own physical media?

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Don't agree with Apple on this one. Really how much effort would be to make it available on disk, even if only by post. Broadband internet is nowhere near universally available around the world. I have friends who are currently working in Africa. Many of those countries have little or no broadband access outside the business district. Once again this just reinforces the belief that Apple computers are only for the rich elite of this world.