If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Kind of. I've got Wish on her, and then Stealth Rocks. And then Fire Blast and Ice Beam, due to lack of both types on the rest of the team members. My one entry to fire type is Flamethrower on Manectric, and Ice is Ice Punch on Feraligatr.

Kind of. I've got Wish on her, and then Stealth Rocks. And then Fire Blast and Ice Beam, due to lack of both types on the rest of the team members. My one entry to fire type is Flamethrower on Manectric, and Ice is Ice Punch on Feraligatr.

Ok. If you were using her just for Cleric it's better to use Audino. (I think. That's what I use.)

Makes sense. (: I considered Lickilicky, but I just find Clefable's utility (and easier access to moves) to be superior.

Lickylicky is only really ever useful if you want a Wisher that can also phaze. Clefable also has access to Stealth Rock, a boon which neither Lickylicky nor Audino have, hence why they're NU and Clefable is RU.

RU's a pretty nice tier from what I played, back when it started. I might see if I can get into it again, I sometimes find it hard to get into older tiers though. Anybody give me a poke that I can build a random team around?

Lickylicky is only really ever useful if you want a Wisher that can also phaze. Clefable also has access to Stealth Rock, a boon which neither Lickylicky nor Audino have, hence why they're NU and Clefable is RU.

RU's a pretty nice tier from what I played, back when it started. I might see if I can get into it again, I sometimes find it hard to get into older tiers though. Anybody give me a poke that I can build a random team around?

My thoughts exactly. I'm playing both OU and RU right now, along with VGCs. (:

It's nice, but I feel that SubSplit Skull is a bit of a burden, but it's quite effective when used right. I tend to use something else to pass High HP subs to Duskull and it it stall. Depending on which moveset you use, you'll runn into some big problems. Toxic + Night Shade has trouble beating through Steels, but a majority of them lack recovery moves, so it's manageable.

Anyway, RU has begun suspect testing again with the release of BW2, and the tier has certainly been shaken up. New threats have emerged such as Zangoose and Amoonguss, and old threats got better such as Moltres and Golurk. The two dropdowns have also had a large effect on the metagame, with Nidoqueen and Escavalier making their presence felt early. The first two suspects in this new era are Moltres and Nidoqueen; both have hardly any counters, and are top-tier offensive threats. Links have been included in the OP to the suspect discussions on Smogon, so you all should definitely check that out. As it stands now Moltres is unlikely to get banned, with Nidoqueen being a more controversial suspect. Discuss!

The first two suspects in this new era are Moltres and Nidoqueen; both have hardly any counters, and are top-tier offensive threats.

That's kind of untrue; Feraligatr counters both fairly easily. Well, Nidoqueen at least.
Overall, Moltres is incredibly broken in RU. There are maybe five pokemon who can successfully revenge kill it, and I'm not sure how many can take a hit and KO Moltres. It is pretty fast, even with its low bulky. Eviotortle maybe... Oh, and Quagsire, if Moltres isn't running HP Grass. .__.
All in all, I don't Nidoqueen should be banned. Moltres is a big threat, however, and should be sent out of RU soon imo.

That's kind of untrue; Feraligatr counters both fairly easily. Well, Nidoqueen at least.
Overall, Moltres is incredibly broken in RU. There are maybe five pokemon who can successfully revenge kill it, and I'm not sure how many can take a hit and KO Moltres. It is pretty fast, even with its low bulky. Eviotortle maybe... Oh, and Quagsire, if Moltres isn't running HP Grass. .__.
All in all, I don't Nidoqueen should be banned. Moltres is a big threat, however, and should be sent out of RU soon imo.

Feraligatr can't switch into either of them actually, and is outsped by both of them (no one runs max Speed Feraligatr), and Aqua Jet doesn't OHKO either of them. Wartortle is never seen, and Quagsire is 2HKOed by both of them as well, and Moltres commonly runs HP Grass to OHKO it. They're both kinda outclassed by Poliwrath and other bulky Waters as it is though. Also, to be honest one of the major reasons why Moltres isn't broken is because it has a large number of revenge killers. There are many fast Electric-types in RU, such as Manectric, Rotom, Galvantula, and Scarf Rotom-C, all of which can revenge kill Moltres. Primeape and Hitmonlee commonly run Stone Edge, and Primeape naturally outspeeds while Hitmonlee can use a Normal Gem Fake Out to activate Unburden. Faster special attackers such as Typhlosion, Sceptile, and Accelgor all commonly run HP Rock, and instantly real with Moltres. Archeops and Aerodactyl both outspeed it and KO with STAB Rock moves, and Fire-types such as Magmortar and Entei have the bulk to take a Life Orb Hurricane without Stealth Rock on the field, and KO back with Thunderbolt and Stone Edge respectively. Aqua Jet is fairly common from Kabutops and Feraligatr (it's a good check yes, but no counter), and Stealth Rock severely cripples it. Lanturn and Slowking are its best defensive checks, although they can bith be beaten with hazards on the field. So yeah, Moltres is harder to directly counter than before, but still as easy to check.

Hard to say if Moltres should go to UU or not. It's tied for the highest Special Attack stat with five others in RU, has excellent coverage with Fire Blast + Hidden Power Grass + Hurricane or Air Slash, and has reliable recovery. On the other hand, i4f it goes to UU, Snorlax and Rotom-H will become its biggest threats. It will also have to deal with increased usage of Stealth Rock, since Rhyperior, Registeel, and Swampert are common on UU stall teams.

Nidoqueen on the other hand should probably go to UU. I didn't really get why it went to RU in the first place. Sheer Force gives it an immunity to Life Orb recoil and gives it a slightly above-average Special Attack stat. It also has a good defensive typing and the stats to back it up, making it a reliable check to Heracross.

part of the definition of a counter is being able to switch in reliably. so no, because it risks a thunderbolt.

Originally Posted by MatchMaster

Hard to say if Moltres should go to UU or not. It's tied for the highest Special Attack stat with five others in RU, has excellent coverage with Fire Blast + Hidden Power Grass + Hurricane or Air Slash, and has reliable recovery.

hurricane is the thing that puts it over the top, because now slowking is no longer a counter.

although i'm not really a polished, frequent ru player, the potency of moltres and nidoqueen are really obvious. i believe people adjust speed evs on cryogonal to outspeed max speed modest nidoqueen now? i mean both moltres and nidoqueen are easily checked, but it's just countering them--they are bound to kill something in each game.

i mean, what counters moltres? munchlax and lanturn? munchlax is fodder for setup. useless. lanturn is okay, but it takes a chunky amount from hidden power grass and can't heal reliably, so i assume it's not even a counter if hazards are up against it. the only way to say if moltres is broken and should be banned soon depends on how people judge the way it's checked with stealth rock obviously being the best check. and cumulatively this is just why moltres is a centralizing factor to the ru metagame from what i've seen. offensive teams are rising just to pressure moltres with the utilization of hazard setting and mandatory spinblockers. the thing is that people now realize how amazing cryogonal is as a rapid spinner (i want it back in nu ;-;). stealth rock is not staying up for a long time unless you're packing a choice band spiritomb, a pathetic dusknoir, or you just manage to keep amazing offensive momentum.

and onto nidoqueen, the only counters it has are basically specially bulky psychic types, clefable, lickilicky and munchlax. the latter three are a definite no if nidoqueen is running focus blast (which is unlikely because that would mean an inferior nidoqueen set, but is by all means possible), and they're setup fodder anyway. a bunch of the psychic types, such as grumpig and hypno, don't really do much else aside from checking nidoqueen. some of them are capable of passing a wish, but that's it. they're deadweight too. nidoqueen is easy to check simply because of its middling speed stat, but when it gets a favorable switch into something, ouch.

Feraligatr can't switch into either of them actually, and is outsped by both of them (no one runs max Speed Feraligatr), and Aqua Jet doesn't OHKO either of them. Wartortle is never seen, and Quagsire is 2HKOed by both of them as well, and Moltres commonly runs HP Grass to OHKO it. They're both kinda outclassed by Poliwrath and other bulky Waters as it is though. Also, to be honest one of the major reasons why Moltres isn't broken is because it has a large number of revenge killers. There are many fast Electric-types in RU, such as Manectric, Rotom, Galvantula, and Scarf Rotom-C, all of which can revenge kill Moltres. Primeape and Hitmonlee commonly run Stone Edge, and Primeape naturally outspeeds while Hitmonlee can use a Normal Gem Fake Out to activate Unburden. Faster special attackers such as Typhlosion, Sceptile, and Accelgor all commonly run HP Rock, and instantly real with Moltres. Archeops and Aerodactyl both outspeed it and KO with STAB Rock moves, and Fire-types such as Magmortar and Entei have the bulk to take a Life Orb Hurricane without Stealth Rock on the field, and KO back with Thunderbolt and Stone Edge respectively. Aqua Jet is fairly common from Kabutops and Feraligatr (it's a good check yes, but no counter), and Stealth Rock severely cripples it. Lanturn and Slowking are its best defensive checks, although they can bith be beaten with hazards on the field. So yeah, Moltres is harder to directly counter than before, but still as easy to check.

The only part I would like to comment on this is "no one runs mad speed feraligator". Just because nobody currently runs it, does not mean people will never begin to run max speed. Whether it is just to counter this threat, or D dance sets need a little more speed. From what I know, the meta game is suppose to adapt (as long as whatever it adapts to doesn't cause an over centralization) and change so it doesn't get stale

Ok, Nidoqueen and Moltres have both been deemed not broken by the RU Senate as well as a few other handpicked users. You can find links to the voters' reasoning here for Moltres and here for Nidoqueen. Nidoqueen only received a single ban vote, and Moltres didn't receive any. I think the metagame is adapting to them, as they're both new concepts in the metagame: a Pokemon with very few hard counters, and even fewer of them used by good players. Moltres is unlikely to become a suspect again, but we're still keeping a close eye on Nidoqueen. An even more pressing concern however, is Shadow Tag Gothitelle. The Specs set and SubCM are both very potent, with the former seeing more use among good players. I personally think it is completely retarded, since you are forced to run Spiritomb, Drapion, or Escavalier on every team and you can't use Ferroseed and Roselia at all, among others. Pokemon such as Slowking, Cryogonal, Tangrowth, Poliwrath, Steelix, Mandibuzz, Qwilfish, and defensive Omastar are forced to run a Shed Shell too, which is pretty stupid since a lot of them need Leftovers since they lack reliable recovery (Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Steelix, Omastar), are stretched pretty thin already (Slowking, Cryogonal, Tangrowth), or just have other issues (Mandibuzz). Notice how I listed pretty much every defensive Spiker, which is also pretty stupid. Gothitelle has bulk comparable to that of Reuniclus, is as fast as Modest Nidoqueen, and has a good enough Special Attack to cause lots of teams problems.