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“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.” – Bill Hicks

This little bitch is one of the reasons the term "friendly fire" was invented. The military should have punched this ass crammers ticket long ago. The guy is a fucking embarassment to the military and America.

Except Manning is not a woman. I generally support trans people, but simply wishing you are a woman does not make you one. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. We have good biological definitions of what a man/woman is. Manning is a man. Currently, at least.

“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.” – Bill Hicks

Except Manning is not a woman. I generally support trans people, but simply wishing you are a woman does not make you one. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. We have good biological definitions of what a man/woman is. Manning is a man. Currently, at least.

There is a documentary at least, We Leak Secrets, it's about Manning and Asange. They talk about Manning's identity and gender struggles in it, so I kind of saw this coming.

Originally Posted by Paint_It_Black

Except Manning is not a woman. I generally support trans people, but simply wishing you are a woman does not make you one. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. We have good biological definitions of what a man/woman is. Manning is a man. Currently, at least.

Nah, that's a definition, but I don't think most transgendered folks give a fuck about 'biological definitions' and neither should you. If identifying as a woman is what Manning wants to do, and it makes her happier, who are we to argue?

Would you intentionally call a friend who transitioned one way or another the wrong pronoun? 'Cause that's pretty fucked up.

I accept that the definitions of "men" and "women" have evolved to the point where it's about more than what kind of genitalia one has, but I don't necessarily believe that this was the black-and-white "right" evolution path of those definitions, and I actually think it has evolved somewhat arbitrarily.

I don't see anything worth fighting about in Manning's choice to identify as a female, but my natural inclination is to think more like PiB. I actually think that maybe it's good for there to be stiff definitions of men and women based solely on exterior biology. When you think about it, making it more complicated than that means that societal oppression has won. If a young boy likes to play with dolls, other children will no longer learn to accept that it's OK for some boys just to play with dolls-- they'll just learn that he is in fact, a girl. What if someone has interests that are more commonly associated with the opposite sex, but has no desire to change his or her biological sexual identity? They might end up being raised as the opposite sex before they ever get a chance to speak for themselves, which is just a different version of what people like Manning have struggled with.

Except Manning is not a woman. I generally support trans people, but simply wishing you are a woman does not make you one. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. We have good biological definitions of what a man/woman is. Manning is a man. Currently, at least.

How is that supporting trans people? So pre-op trans people have to have their gender match their genes, but post-op means it's okay? That just doesn't make sense. Some trans people don't ever have an operation because they can't afford it or can't undergo that kind of surgery for medical reasons. Still others don't find it necessary. That doesn't make them any less trans. This is a very delicate issue, though. Sometimes you have a person whose genes make them a male, but they feel that their gender is female. I know someone who is genderqueer and doesn't feel they are either gender, though this person's sex is female. These people are not necessarily trans, though they can be. With some trans people, they actually feel that their sex is wrong, not just their gender. I can't begin to imagine how frustrating it must be. I'm lucky that, while I was a tomboy growing up, I've always felt that I am a woman. The way I look at it is, if I felt the way I feel but had a man's body, society would make things very rough for me. And any person who's willing to admit such a thing (because it must be awful) deserves my usage of the preferred pronouns. I don't see why it matters what their genitalia are. In cases where genitalia matter, the person is obviously going to say, I'm a transwoman/transman. Where's the issue?

Originally Posted by WebDudette

Nah, that's a definition, but I don't think most transgendered folks give a fuck about 'biological definitions' and neither should you. If identifying as a woman is what Manning wants to do, and it makes her happier, who are we to argue?

Would you intentionally call a friend who transitioned one way or another the wrong pronoun? 'Cause that's pretty fucked up.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by XYlophonetreeZ

I accept that the definitions of "men" and "women" have evolved to the point where it's about more than what kind of genitalia one has, but I don't necessarily believe that this was the black-and-white "right" evolution path of those definitions, and I actually think it has evolved somewhat arbitrarily.

I don't see anything worth fighting about in Manning's choice to identify as a female, but my natural inclination is to think more like PiB. I actually think that maybe it's good for there to be stiff definitions of men and women based solely on exterior biology. When you think about it, making it more complicated than that means that societal oppression has won. If a young boy likes to play with dolls, other children will no longer learn to accept that it's OK for some boys just to play with dolls-- they'll just learn that he is in fact, a girl. What if someone has interests that are more commonly associated with the opposite sex, but has no desire to change his or her biological sexual identity? They might end up being raised as the opposite sex before they ever get a chance to speak for themselves, which is just a different version of what people like Manning have struggled with.

I disagree (lolz). A boy playing with dolls is not trans by any means. People are starting to get over gender roles and norms. I played with Ninja Turtles as a kid, and the Barbies my mom bought for me were strictly the girlfriends of the Ninja Turtles. I've never had an inkling of a feeling that I am a man, and I've never been called trans. Being trans is not simply liking things that the other sex is supposed to like.