There are no "historical documents" (from Rome or anywhere else) that meet the standards of historical research. There are a few Roman documents that mention, obliquely, the cult. There is no evidence that he, specifically, was killed. Phlio of Alexandria, and Pilate's secretary were on-site at the time and mention nothing, but mention all kinds of other more mundane occurances. There is no way to sort out Yeshua ben Josef from the other Jesuses. Greeks translating Hebrew texts that were created as "gospels', (thus inherently NON-historical) are not evidence of anything. Paul admitted he cooked up his "revelation" on the basis of his hallucination. Repeated lies, are still lies. The Old Testament is almost all mythology, (much of it proven to be impossible by archaeology), such as Abraham, the patriarchs, Moses, the Exodus, all complete myth, as demonstrated by the Documentary Hypothesis. There is nothing "historically reliable" about any of it. The Hebrews didn't even have a word for "history", and at the time of Tacitus the Romans were arguing what it even meant to write "history".

Insufferable know-it-all.
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche

(28-12-2013 04:20 PM)λάθε βιώσας Wrote: Islam is slavery! a society for the few on top!

Islam is disgusting and filthy!

WILL THE MODERATORS PLEASE GET THIS DISGUSTING FILTHY CRAP OFF THE THE BOARDS?

thank you...

Okay thanks , this much hate and stress will kill you day by day . Look there is a war in Syria , you can join the Assad side : ) and fight against islamists . Ofcourse if you have courage for that , I'm sure you have .

Eh, just put him on [/IGNORE]. So far as I can tell, he's only here to troll.

The only thing you can do is copy-paste ? or watching fox tv news ? like a zombie .

Please watch the video to learn about Islam .

Right, 'cause wiki is JUST like Fox News, and as an atheist it's the kind of news channel I go to in order to confirm my religious and moral beliefs.

You asked for scriptural references, and I have you a wiki reference to the exact location that calls them out. I am not a reader of the Koran, so that's the best I can do. I have heard Muslims state that Islam requires death for apostasy in multiple youtube debates I've watched, so since this is coming from your side, I take that to be confirmation this is the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in...references

Quote:Qur'an Surah 4. An-Nisa, Ayah 89 or Qur'an 4:89 [46] states that "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-". This command to kill or slay is in all mainstream translations.

Are you saying wiki is inaccurate?

Your reaction to my question is exactly the same as the British Muslim debating Dawkins here. Notice everyone how forthcoming Nineteen is in discussing Islam's rules for how to deal with apostasy. She is just as dishonest in her response as if she were lying by evading the point entirely. She knows how immoral the Islamic teachings on apostasy are, so she wants to talk about anything else than that. It took Dawkins multiple times to get the guy to answer that the penalty for apostasy is death:

(28-12-2013 05:42 PM)Nineteen Wrote: This is really so boring : ) hadiths are not islamic teachings , I can prove that by asking you questions , would you want to answer my questions ? Short questions and short answers ? Okay ? I'm gonna sleep : )

Extremism brings out the extreme in the best and the worst of us.

It does appear as though you want to have a sensible discussion so may I make a suggestion?...

Instead of giving us what your book does teach (and many of us have read it) why not give us (in bite-sized chunks), the parts (specifics) that your revisionist view has rejected and why?