I changed the forum name mainly because in the "10 most recent posts" it made it stretch too far. I added the asterisk and footnote for our participants who have had a problem with identifying Roman Catholics as simply Catholics when they feel that they too are entitled to be called Catholics (ie Orthodox Catholics). We've debated the issues here several times though so if you want to comment on the name change (I am still open to other names) please do not turn it into a thread on the relative merits of the term Catholic.

Thanks, anastasios - just noticed the change now. I was going to suggest it! We all know what big-C Catholic means, and the hothead who made a federal case out of it (because, IMO, he was insanely jealous of the Catholic Church for some reason - unlike born Orthodox I know in person) is now gone, so there's no more 'need' to walk on eggshells and use ridiculous long qualifiers every time one uses the word.

Sorry, but being a bit new to this particular board, I'm confused. Maybe you can clear it up for me.

The title of this section of the board is "Orthodox-Catholic* Discussion", and the explaination is ...

"Discuss in charity issues uniting and dividing the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic Churches. (*in Communion with Rome)."

So is this section of the board to discuss differences between the Roman rite and the other rites within the Catholic Church. Or is this section of the board to discuss differences (uniting and dividing) the Catholic Church(es) and the "Orthodox" Church(es) (ie. Greek Orthodox)?

If another thread on this board will explain the need for the change, I'd be happy to read it, if someone will direct me.

We had a former member who had a big grudge against Roman and Byzantine Catholics. He insisted on calling himself an Orthodox Catholic and said that just calling the forum Orthodox-Catholic Discussion was unfair in that Orthodox were catholic too. To accomodate this member we made a terrifically long forum name and had endless arguments about this just about anytime someone used the term Catholic to refer exclusively to those in communion with the Pope(ie Roman Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, etc).

Since that particular poster decided to leave the board a couple of months ago, the admins felt it could go back to an easier-to-understand title. I hope that clears it up!

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"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."-Yazid Ibrahim

James the Just

I don't have a problem with the name change, of course I prefer Orthodox & Eastern/Roman Catholic Forum,the Eastern Catholics prefer some seperation from their Latin brethern which is another dilemma, latin paranoia I guess.

So this is to discuss differences between Catholic groups (as opposed to Christian groups that could include protestants, et.al.) post-"Great Schism", right?

You could put it that way, but since we all agree that common English usage has 'Catholic' meaning 'the church under the Pope', a better catchall word for these ancient churches is 'apostolic'. Also, AFAIK this folder wasn't set up to discuss differences between Orthodox and Oriental Churches (Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, Syrians and Malankara), Orthodox and Assyrians, Orientals and Assyrians, Catholics and Orientals, or Catholics and Assyrians. (You see what I'm getting at.) It was set up to compare the Orthodox (the working definition of this board is that all nonpapal Eastern churches - Eastern Orthodox, Orientals and Assyrians - are Orthodox) and Catholic churches.

While sharing a lot of the Orthodox tradition, Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics aren't in the Orthodox churches but the Catholic Church, so my guess is discussions solely about them and comparing them to the Roman Rite would belong in another folder.

Jacobus wrote:

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I don't have a problem with the name change, of course I prefer Orthodox & Eastern/Roman Catholic Forum,the Eastern Catholics prefer some seperation from their Latin brethern which is another dilemma, latin paranoia I guess.

Too complicated IMO. Sure, they prefer some separation, because 'Catholic' is often construed by the common man as = 'Roman Catholic', but enough's enough. 'Catholic' is good enough as a catchall.

I can't speak for Azarus but I think he is using the word 'Catholic' differently from the way we agree common usage defines it - he's using it the way we use 'apostolic'. (I used to do that too but it confused too many people.)

James the Just

In my experience if you say Catholic the vast majority of people think Roman Catholic, I was ignorant of the fact 9 months ago, I did not know the existance of the Eastern Catholics, although I knew the existence of the Orthodox Church.

I understand the reason for the name change. I agree with it because in common parlance Catholic usually means Roman Catholic.

But I think common parlance is a shame, because when we read the Church Fathers the word Catholic is not used or limited in that way.

However, reality is what it is . . .

A couple of years ago there was an older man of a particular ethnic background in our parish who objected to the fact that we had the word Catholic in the name of our Church. I thought it was silly, but it shows that even some Orthodox misunderstand that word.

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The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.- Pope St. Hormisdas

I prefer to use the term Latin Catholic when I can, and a number of conservative Catholics that I've talked with also like this term. Unfortunately, too often people seem to take "Latin" as though it's meant in a derogatory way. Admittedly, it would have been more applicable last century than it is now.

Serge had it right when he said, "... he is using the word 'Catholic' differently from the way we agree common usage defines it - he's using it the way we use 'apostolic'."

And, when Jacobus posted, "In my experience if you say Catholic the vast majority of people think Roman Catholic, I was ignorant of the fact 9 months ago, I did not know the existance of the Eastern Catholics, although I knew the existence of the Orthodox Church."

I was in the "same boat" until about 1-1 1/2 years ago. I thought the Roman Catholic church was the only "Catholic" church. To further confuse the issue, there are several "Catholic" churches that are not in union with Rome and have NEVER been in union with Rome, and further do not share the apostolic succession, but they still claim the name "Catholic".

I believe that the name change is symptomatic of a perception problem our church endures from "outsiders". And that some of the confusion IS self-inflicted. Bishop Kallistos(Ware) states that the canonical name of the Orthodox Church is "Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East". Although I cannot find this in the Rudder, it obviously applies to the the remaining four patriarchs of the original Pentarchy who remained true to the "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church". Moreover, the canonical name of the Russian Orthodox Church is "Holy Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church". I attend an "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church" (yes, former uniates, very refreshing to this old Greek!). It's no wonder we lean to short quick nomenclature such as "Orthodox" and "Catholic". I have often dreamed of the outright fear with which certain other "Christianesque" demoninations might greet our calling ourselves "Orthodox Catholic". I mention this because over that last few months I have used this term in mixed company and gotten reactions different than that when describing myself as "Greek" or "Russian" or "Eastern" Orthodox. I understand the "Orthodox" is a pre-schism term applied at an earlier time to the whole church - east and west- to distinguish the Church from heresies such as arianism. We have allowed the RC's to ursurp the term Catholic. No?Please forgive this lengthy post, my first.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

You may be correct, Serge. And then we both may be correct. I think we are assuming the at that time each "side" consistently applied the same terms to refer both to themselves AND the other side. Note that the term "Orthodox" seems a pre-Chalcedonian term from the Oriental Orthodox Churches' use of the same name.And I have read in non-Orthodox, non-church related histories of others questioning why the Eastern Churches allowed the Roman Church seemingly uncontested use of the term "Catholic".Back to the "books" for more learin'

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

We're both right. Both sides also used both words for the whole Church. Patristic writings refer to the Catholic Church, the official names of several Eastern Churches (that weren't ever Eastern Catholic) have the C word in them, and the Canon (anaphora, consecration prayer) of the traditional Roman Catholic Mass prays for 'all the orthodox'.

Thanks, Serge- that was fast. I didn't have a chance to even get to my library in the next room!

And to my friend, Azarus:Are you aware that even in today's Hellas (Greece) the citizens still refer to themselves as "Romans" as they did in the days of the Empire? Levity is fine and welcomed. "Grace" is the difficult task.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

And to my friend, Azarus:Are you aware that even in today's Hellas (Greece) the citizens still refer to themselves as "Romans" as they did in the days of the Empire? Levity is fine and welcomed. "Grace" is the difficult task.

Yes, I do know "how those Greeks are". And seeking God's Grace is difficult enough without symmatical issues clouding the journey.Man, are we "off-topic" here, or what? This belongs in Beliefnet's "Challenge" Forum.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

I think the forum name change is cool, after all many recent posts have dealt with issues of the Western Church and the Ecumenical dialogues.

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Moreover, the canonical name of the Russian Orthodox Church is "Holy Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church".

I am not really sure but I think this title corresponds for the Church in America, but I don't think it's the name of the Church in Russia :reading:

I know that the Assyrian Church's name is "Holy Catholic Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East." Most Churches use both terms Orthodox and catholic.

Do you know if the Roman Church has ever used the title "Orthodox"?

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Aristocles -

I'm in the ACROD, too! Small world!

I also like the title Catholic in the name of our Diocese.

Cool, I think the ACROD is a very lovely juridiction because of their founders love for Orthodoxy and also for their Byzantine Catholic origin, and for the courage they had to place themselves with the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople avoiding the problems of pan-slavism and canonical disputes.