None of the many suttas that use this list support your modification of the list in this way. This is not a list of progression. I'll go with Occam Razor here. It is far more simply a list showing different aspects of of the same thing. You also ignore the fact the most of the items in this list, as stated, are used specifically to refer to the goal, as I have shown, as is plainly obvious with virāga: S.N. IV 371: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is destruction of craving [virāga]." Your discussion of cessation, I find equally unconvincing. Cessation is used repeatedly at the end of a number progressive paticcasamuppada type lists to indicate nibbana. You have made things far too complicated where it seems it is far more straightforward.

cittaanurakkho wrote:Because I don’t equate (Sam)bodhi with Nibbana, when I read the list above, instead of synonym I see a progression, like stages of development culminating in Nibbana. In fact, one can fit Buddha chronology of his development into the list:1. His complete disenchantment with the sorrow of daily, aging, death.2. His dispassion of that life that drives him to become contemplative.3. His cessation of lay life and beginning of contemplative life.4. His peace obtain through samadhi.5. The three knowledge obtain in the night of his enlightenment.6. To his englightenment.7. Nibbana

There's certainly a progression in this list

Not that you have shown.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

If Noble Eightfold Paths is conditioned then the Four Noble Truths is also conditioned. As Nirodha is in Four Noble Truths, this will make Nirodha conditioned. However, Nibbana is unconditioned so I think this will rule out that Nirodha is equal to Nibbana.

because nirodha and nibbana, as I see it, are synonymous. dukkhanirodha is descriptive; nibbana is one among many metaphors for this, not a separate 'thing', as I understand it.

The Path is conditioned; the result is not. It is a conditioned path which 'puts out', nibbanizes, greed & hatred & delusion. These are at the root of dukkha, so dukkhanirodha is raga-dosa-moha-nirodha, which is nibbana. Just as "no-fire" isn't a thing, but a lack of a particular thing, so "nibbana" isn't a thing to be differentiated from other things, but a lack which can be described in many ways.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

I think that there may be two ways to make sense of the teachings. Let us call theminterpretations A, and B.

I prefer interpretation A, in which the five clinging aggregates cease at awakening. ButI would also like to understand the other way of seeing things.

There are discourses which seem to say that the arahant still has the five clingingaggregates. I have to ignore these because they are not compatible with interpretation A.See, for example, SN 22.122

But if one bases one's interpretation on these statements, perhaps it leads tointerpretation B.

The first noble truth says that suffering is the five clinging aggregates. The fourthtruth says that the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of suffering (leads tothe cessation of the five clinging aggregates). But if an arahant still has the fiveclinging aggregates, then they will only cease when he passes away.

This would seem to mean that craving ceases at awakening, but suffering ceases onlymany years later. How does this influence one's understanding of cessation and nibbana?

Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound.

The Buddha enter nibbana immediately after he emerges from the fourth Jhana without going through (Sam)bodhi. However, Buddha had to go through (Sam)bodhi first when he for the first time enter Nibbana during the night of his awakening. If Buddha can enter Nibbana without going through (Sam)bodhi all the time then (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana.

If (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana, then all the six items in that list (complete disenchantment [ekantanibbāya], dispassion [virāgāya], cessation [nirodhāya], peace[upasamāya], direct knowledge [abhiññāya], enlightenment [sambodhāya]) cannot be read as synonym with Nibbana: they are conditional processes. So does Four Noble Truth and Eight Noble Path.

That is my understanding. I am running out of more ideas and words to show further evidences. So I’d like to rest my case.

Last edited by cittaanurakkho on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Interesting take on the list. Is the sanna refer to the sanna of the khandas? If I understand you correctly this is like intentionally developing the perception of impermanance, ... ,... , in stages/progressively during the practice?

Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound.

The Buddha enter nibbana immediately after he emerges from the fourth Jhana without going through (Sam)bodhi. However, Buddha had to go through (Sam)bodhi first when he for the first time enter Nibbana during the night of his awakening. If Buddha can enter Nibbana without going through (Sam)bodhi all the time then (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana.

If (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana, then all the six items in that list (complete disenchantment [ekantanibbāya], dispassion [virāgāya], cessation [nirodhāya], peace[upasamāya], direct knowledge [abhiññāya], enlightenment [sambodhāya]) cannot be read as synonym with Nibbana: they are conditional processes. So does Four Noble Truth and Eight Noble Path.

That is my understanding. I am running out of more ideas and words to show further evidences. So I’d like to rest my case.

This is a muddle of the parinibbāna of the Buddha with the liberation from greed, antipathy and delusion – Nibbāna - of the arahant.

ancientbuddhism wrote:This is a muddle of the parinibbāna of the Buddha with the liberation from greed, antipathy and delusion – Nibbāna - of the arahant.

Really? Are you saying he enter a different Nibbana?

I think he is saying that the final breakup of the aggregates is different than the nibbana which arahants experience in this very life, and quoting from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta is confusing this distinction.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

If I understand you correctly this is like intentionally developing the perception of impermanance, ... ,... , in stages/progressively during the practice?

Indeed. Here's another detailed description:

Anguttara Nikaya 7.95-622

Āhuneyyavaggo

Persons worthy of offerings

Translated by E. M. Hare

“Monks, there are these seven persons, worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit. What seven?

Monks, herein a monk abides seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom; and destroying the cankers, he enters and abides in the cankerless mind-emancipation … ; this, monks, is the first person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.

Again, consider one who likewise abides seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom; and for him the cankers’ ending and life’s ending are at the same time, not one before and one after; this, monks, is the second person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.

Again, consider one so abiding, seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom, who, destroying the five lower fetters, after an interval becomes completely cool [Non-returner -- antarāparinibbāyin]; this, monks, is the third person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.

Again, consider one so abiding, seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom, who, destroying the five lower fetters, after lessening his period, becomes completely cool [Non-returner -- upahaccaparinibbāyin]; this, monks, is the fourth person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.

Again, consider one so abiding, seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom, who, destroying the five lower fetters, without (karmic) residue becomes completely cool [Non-returner -- asankhāraparinibbāyin]; this, monks, is the fifth person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.

Again, consider one so abiding, seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom, who, destroying the five lower fetters, with some residue becomes completely cool [Non-returner -- sasankhāraparinibbāyin]; this, monks, is the sixth person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.

Again, consider one so abiding, seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom, who, destroying the five lower fetters, becomes part of the upward stream, bound for the highest (Akanitฺtฺha); this, monks, is the seventh person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.

Verily, monks, these seven persons are worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.”

(Other worthy persons)

“Monks, there are these (other) persons, worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit.

(The Burmese MS. M. adds an Uddāna and observes that this chapter consists of 528 suttas. There appear, however, to be 8 x 6 x 10 suttas in respect of the six senses and their derivatives, and 8 x 5 suttas in respect of the five aggregates, therefore 520 in all. So 3,640 different persons, worthy of offerings, are stated. These recur in many places in the Pitฺakas. See Stcherbatsky’s “The Central Conception of Buddhism”.)

Quote 2: "One can have Nibbana without having (Sam)bodhi. The proof is ...[DN 16]"

Quote DN 16: "...Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound."

Quote 3: "The Buddha enter nibbana immediately after he emerges from the fourth Jhana without going through (Sam)bodhi. However, Buddha had to go through (Sam)bodhi first when he for the first time enter Nibbana during the night of his awakening. If Buddha can enter Nibbana without going through (Sam)bodhi all the time then (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana."

So (sam)bodhi [awakening] is only a temporary experience?

And (sam)bodhi leads to a temporary experience of nibbana?

Is cessation also only temporary?

How do you understand the distinction between nibbana and parinibbana?

How do you understand the distinction between nibbana with residue, and nibbana withoutresidue?

This passage from MN 31 can be read as a description of 'temporary liberation',the temporary experience of 'nibbana'.

"Good, good Anuruddha. But is there any other superhuman state, adistinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, acomfortable abiding, which you have attained by surmounting thatabiding, by making that abiding subside?"

"Why not, venerable sir? Here, venerable sir, whenever we want, bycompletely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception,we enter upon and abide in the cessation of perception and feeling.And our taints are destroyed by our seeing with wisdom. .......And, venerable sir, we do not see any other comfortable abiding higheror more sublime than this one."

"Good, good Anuruddha. There is no other comfortable abiding higheror more sublime than this one."

[ Bhikkhu Bodhi, Middle Length Discourses, page 304, MN 31.18 ]

The phrase 'whenever we want' implies repeated experience. Is the 'destructionof the taints' included in this temporary experience?

If so, then the cessation of perception and feeling, is understood by some monksto be a temporary experience of nibbana. Since they cannot imagine any other kindof liberation, they declare themselves to be Arahants.

[ See: the distinction between 'temporary' and 'non-temporary' liberation in MN 29.6-7 and MN 122.4]

'Cunda, whatever in this world with its devas and maras and Brahmas, with its ascetics and Brahmins, its princes and people, is seen by people, heard, sensed, cognized, whatever was ever achieved, sought after or mentally pondered upon -- all that has been fully comprehended [abhisambuddham] by the Tathagata. That is why he is called Tathagata. Between the night in which the Tathagata comprehends [abhisambujjhati] the unequalled Perfect Comprehension (samma-sambodhi), Cunda, and the night in which he attains the Nibbana-element without remainder, whatever he proclaims, says or explains is so and not otherwise.'

which describe the event on the night of his awakening. I pick this sutta because it is quite chronological from the beginning to the end. I am quoting below the event on the last watch of the night.

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

Other sutta (SN v 433) mentioned that the knowledge of Four Noble Truths is the marker of awakening (sambodhi). But here, even after the knowledge of Four Noble Truths (which include nirodha/cessation), there were still other knowledge arising: knowledge of fermentations, …, the way leading to fermentations, which I understand to indicate the knowledge of dependent origination. And finally he said knowing that, his heart was released (vimutti) from fermentations of sensuality, released from becoming, and released from ignorance. Along with the release there was the knowledge: “Released”, which I understand is vimutti, the marker of the beginning of Nibbana.

I don’t know where is the marker for sambodhi, but cessation occurred before vimutti. So, to me, awakening/sambodhi seems to be a process with one knowledge appears after another ending with the achievement of Nibbana. The whole process lasted for about 4 hours (1 watch = 4 hours) for the Buddha.

"And (sam)bodhi leads to a temporary experience of nibbana?"

No, not temporary. Once one go through (sam)bodhi one attained nibbana.

"How do you understand the distinction between nibbana and parinibbana?"

Nibbana refer to the unconditioned.

Parinibbana refer to the event where an arahant all sense faculties ceased without remainder, i.e. the passing away of an arahant. Some refer the event to the cessation of the 5 aggregates. But Sue Hamilton seems to suggest that living arahant have only 4 aggregates with the aggregate of shankhara ceased during the awakening.

How do you think anagamis (the non returner) attained Nibbana? How many aggregates they have? Do they go though Parinibbana?

"How do you understand the distinction between nibbana with residue, and nibbana without residue? "

To me, nibbānadhātu is not referring directly to Nibbana. But it is referring to two properties of Nibbana.

“Nibbana-property with residue” refer to the ending of passion, aversion, delusion of an arahant with 5 sense faculty intact. This property manifest itself during the time of awakening. The ending of passion/aversion/delusion seems to be treated as “property” of Nibbana rather than Nibbana itself. And the 5 sense faculty are treated as residue.

“Nibbana-property without residue” refer to the ending of all that is sensed of an arahant. This property manifest itself at the time of his death.

Walpola Rahula, in 'What the Buddha Taught', page 41, says:"There is no such thing as 'entering into Nirvana after death.'"What do you think about this statement?

ancientbuddhism wrote:This is a muddle of the parinibbāna of the Buddha with the liberation from greed, antipathy and delusion – Nibbāna - of the arahant.

Really? Are you saying he enter a different Nibbana?

I think he is saying that the final breakup of the aggregates is different than the nibbana which arahants experience in this very life, and quoting from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta is confusing this distinction.

Ok, point taken. I am retracting my muddling of parinibbana of the Buddha with Awakening.

Dmytro wrote:"Monks, there are these seven persons, worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit. What seven?....Again, consider one who likewise abides seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom; and for him the cankers’ ending and life’s ending are at the same time, not one before and one after; this, monks, is the second person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit....

It seems like this practicioner never went thorugh Jhana at all during his practice and yet achieved liberation at death. His perception is so tune to the the impermanence it becomes embedded into his him that at the time of death all he sees is impermanence and liberated thus, no Jhana needed. Is it right?

Overall, how do you see this selective perception practice fit in with satipathana? I can see the asubha practice, etc...but I don't see how one practice perception of cessation.

If Noble Eightfold Paths is conditioned then the Four Noble Truths is also conditioned. As Nirodha is in Four Noble Truths, this will make Nirodha conditioned. However, Nibbana is unconditioned so I think this will rule out that Nirodha is equal to Nibbana.

because nirodha and nibbana, as I see it, are synonymous. dukkhanirodha is descriptive; nibbana is one among many metaphors for this, not a separate 'thing', as I understand it.

The Path is conditioned; the result is not. It is a conditioned path which 'puts out', nibbanizes, greed & hatred & delusion. These are at the root of dukkha, so dukkhanirodha is raga-dosa-moha-nirodha, which is nibbana. Just as "no-fire" isn't a thing, but a lack of a particular thing, so "nibbana" isn't a thing to be differentiated from other things, but a lack which can be described in many ways.

Well, if you see nirodha as synonymous with nibbana, then you will not see the argument. Let's put aside that nirodha is synonymous with nibbana for a moment and just applied "This and That" conditionality (AN 10:92) in the following way.

1. Eight Noble Paths is conditioned and Nibbana is unconditioned as you stated.2. The knowledges of each Truths in the Four Noble Truths is conditional upon practicing the Eight Noble Paths. If one practice the Eight Noble Path, then the whole 12 knowledges quoted below arises. Note that the 12 knowledges includes the knowlege that the cessation of stress (Nirodha) has been directly experienced.3. Therefore Nirodha is conditional upon the practice of the Eight Noble Paths.4. If Nirodha is conditioned this way, then Nirodha is not Nibbana because Nibbana is unconditioned.

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.'…'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.' …'This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.' ……'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' ... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'…'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'…'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'...'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.'

Quote: "'Sambodhi' is not some kind of place or state in which one abides."

Thank you, that is helpful. Can you please explain further.

Do you mean that sambodhi is the action or events that occur when one firstunderstands something. And it cannot mean 'one who has understood'?

Is it wrong to say that 'sambodhi' is something that an Arahant has, at any timeafter the time when he first understood?

On another point, regarding this section:

" Between the night in which the Tathagata comprehends [abhisambujjhati] the unequalled Perfect Comprehension (samma-sambodhi), Cunda, and the night in which he attains the Nibbana-element without remainder, whatever he proclaims, says or explains is so and not otherwise.'"

It seems to me, to be two descriptions of the same event, on the same night. So thetime between these 'two' events, is no time at all.

Nirodha isn't a thing which is conditioned; it refers to the cessation of stress, as you've mentioned. So "cessation of stress", as an experience, is a conditioned one, requiring the Eightfold Path. So far so good.

Now, nibbana isn't conditioned, just as nirodha isn't conditioned, because those aren't things. But the experience being referred to is conditioned, via the Path, ultimately due to the arising of a tathagata. Lack of greed, hatred, delusion is described as nibbana; the cessation (nirodha) of them is an experience of nibbana. It's all talking about the same thing.

(The translation quoted is a little off; 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' is probably better rendered 'This ennobling truth of the origination of stress, which is to be abandoned.' The origination - tanha - is to be abandoned, not the truth.)

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]