Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

I am glad this subject was brought up, because when I was going through TOS a few months ago, I was rather shocked by how Spock was treated at times by his subordinates. I can't point to any specific examples that haven't been noted, but I certainly got the impression that the writers never agreed on Spock's role, or the relationship between Vulcan and the Federation.

Take, for example, that McCoy said early on the Vulcan was conquered, implying that the Vulcans didn't enter the Federation voluntarily (though this is debatable). I recall it being mentioned later in the series as well.

Spock's race was sometimes Vulcan, sometimes Vulcanian. It wasn't simply a matter of them not settling on a name until later in the show, as Vulcanian was used in the third season as well.

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About as progressive as the 60's gets. Spock gets a lot of insubordination from junior officers in TOS. No way the XO should have been getting that much mess from the crew.

I am glad this subject was brought up, because when I was going through TOS a few months ago, I was rather shocked by how Spock was treated at times by his subordinates. I can't point to any specific examples that haven't been noted, but I certainly got the impression that the writers never agreed on Spock's role, or the relationship between Vulcan and the Federation.

Take, for example, that McCoy said early on the Vulcan was conquered, implying that the Vulcans didn't enter the Federation voluntarily (though this is debatable). I recall it being mentioned later in the series as well.

Spock's race was sometimes Vulcan, sometimes Vulcanian. It wasn't simply a matter of them not settling on a name until later in the show, as Vulcanian was used in the third season as well.

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To be fair, it wasn't that the writers 'couldn't agree', as the writer's had little to no control over - barring interminable re-writes against a ceaseless count-down - of what gets approved through the production process and what does not, and what actually ends up being broadcast - just ask Harlen Ellison, he'd love to explain it to you; being rumored to be a somewhat verbose fellow.

Again, the so-called RACISM between the characters was present in 1966 STAR TREK because Roddenberry meant it to be there, that's the only reason why the characters behave the way they do - and he was subtly TRYING to tell you a something other than _____ism is bad.

Sadly, that subtle message (warning) has been purposely TWISTED and REPLACED in later 'versions' of the show with a wholly different and antithetical message.

Sad, but true, even the 'Great Birds' eventually get trapped in cages on the Prison Plant,... and submit to the might agenda,.. that is if they want to work in Hollywood.

Warped - it depends. When it's on topic, that's one thing. But when it gets into personal attack and pissing matches and is veering off topic, that's when it does not belong.

People know the difference. And I'm not going to sit and split legal hairs, my time is too valuable. That comment is not directed at you personally but a general statement. Too many posters want a firm line, mostly so they can fuck with me.

Not happening.

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This forum is for TOS talk. If people want to talk generally about racism, there are other appropriate forums.

Well, after TMP Spock finally realized his "Logic is better" stuff was all BS and it ultimately led to an empty existence, so he finally realized he'd be better off just accepting his irrational human side. He had a far more content life after that.

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My point exactly.

In the end, even SPOCK, the culturally proudest, biggest racist, and most outwardly INDIVIDUAL of them all,...
finally relinquishes his freedoms of individual opinion, individual attitude, and 'His Right to be Different",..... and SUBMITS his will to the big agenda, through INTEGRATING and EMBRACING THE DIVERSITY of HIS "SELF",..

and finally finds 'complacency' in that submission,.. at least that's what the advertisement is repeatedly broadcasting, as literal 'PROGRAMING'.

Do anyone today actually still think that term "Broadcast Programming" was used by the Television Industry by sheer coincidence?

Bah!,.. or more properly "Baah,.. baah,...baah".

And that's the subtle and sinister message being subliminally implanted within the stories today.

What dark, "dangerous visions" to postulate, unless you simply don't know how read the real story.

also, let's not forget that Trek has NEVER been reaistic on the military aspects. Officers doing enlisted men work, "flagships" without flag officers, officers who stay as captain or XO of a ship for a decade or more.

Trek's military is nothing like a modern military.

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You don't need a flag officer for a ship to be considered a flagship.

Two of the definitions of the word flagship are

1. (Transport / Nautical Terms) a ship, esp in a fleet, aboard which the commander of the fleet is quartered2. (Transport / Nautical Terms) the most important ship belonging to a shipping company

The Enterprise has never been referred to as the or a flagship in TOS or the films. This flagship business started in TNG. In TOS the closest we came to seeing a flagship was in "The Ultimate Computer" wherein Commodore Wesley aboard the Lexington is in command of the wargames squadron.

The Enterprise has never been referred to as the or a flagship in TOS or the films. This flagship business started in TNG. In TOS the closest we came to seeing a flagship was in "The Ultimate Computer" wherein Commodore Wesley aboard the Lexington is in command of the wargames squadron.

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It wasn't the Flagship, but it was repeatedly stated that the Enterprise was a special vessel and there were only 12 like it in all of Starfleet. At least until the movies where it's status as a aging vessel was a plot point. The Enterprise-D being the Flagship was more or less just an extension of the original's status.

also, let's not forget that Trek has NEVER been reaistic on the military aspects. Officers doing enlisted men work, "flagships" without flag officers, officers who stay as captain or XO of a ship for a decade or more.

Trek's military is nothing like a modern military.

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Now you know damn well that doesn't apply to TOS, which was written by people who'd BEEN there.

It wasn't the Flagship, but it was repeatedly stated that the Enterprise was a special vessel and there were only 12 like it in all of Starfleet.

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You mean like a WWII aircraft carrier, which was in fact the basis for the role of Starships in the Starfleet? The adventures may have been Hornblower, but the fleet was right out of WWII carriers. Just look at the names of the ships.

also, let's not forget that Trek has NEVER been reaistic on the military aspects. Officers doing enlisted men work, "flagships" without flag officers, officers who stay as captain or XO of a ship for a decade or more.

Trek's military is nothing like a modern military.

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Now you know damn well that doesn't apply to TOS, which was written by people who'd BEEN there.

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Sure it applies. While TOS was written by military veterans, those same men were also professional writers who knew when to sacrifice reality to tell a good story.

My father, a 25 year veteran of the USAF, found a lot of the military aspects of Star Trek (TOS) laughable.

It wasn't the Flagship, but it was repeatedly stated that the Enterprise was a special vessel and there were only 12 like it in all of Starfleet.

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You mean like a WWII aircraft carrier, which was in fact the basis for the role of Starships in the Starfleet? The adventures may have been Hornblower, but the fleet was right out of WWII carriers. Just look at the names of the ships.

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Whilst some of the ships names used in ST might have been used by aircraft carriers they are not the only type of ships to have carried those names.

It wasn't the Flagship, but it was repeatedly stated that the Enterprise was a special vessel and there were only 12 like it in all of Starfleet.

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You mean like a WWII aircraft carrier, which was in fact the basis for the role of Starships in the Starfleet? The adventures may have been Hornblower, but the fleet was right out of WWII carriers. Just look at the names of the ships.

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The Enterprise is not a carrier. Carriers travel in carrier groups. They have combat air patrols. They are floating airports designed to project military power via the aircraft.

She is much more a Hornblower type-ship. Alone, dealing in war, diplomacy, trade, and exploration without assistance. Her shuttlecraft are much more like the small boats that would be launched from the likes of the H.M.S. Indefatigable.

also, let's not forget that Trek has NEVER been reaistic on the military aspects. Officers doing enlisted men work, "flagships" without flag officers, officers who stay as captain or XO of a ship for a decade or more.

Trek's military is nothing like a modern military.

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Now you know damn well that doesn't apply to TOS, which was written by people who'd BEEN there.

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It's really annoying whenever anyone hides behind the "It's okay when TOS does it because TOS' writers fought in war!" excuse. That really doesn't mean much. I mean, would anyone care if Modern Trek was written by veterans from the Gulf War?

also, let's not forget that Trek has NEVER been reaistic on the military aspects. Officers doing enlisted men work, "flagships" without flag officers, officers who stay as captain or XO of a ship for a decade or more.

Trek's military is nothing like a modern military.

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Now you know damn well that doesn't apply to TOS, which was written by people who'd BEEN there.

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It's really annoying whenever anyone hides behind the "It's okay when TOS does it because TOS' writers fought in war!" excuse. That really doesn't mean much. I mean, would anyone care if Modern Trek was written by veterans from the Gulf War?

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oh, ok. I guess that means they did call it the flagship and had officers doing menial labor. Clearly I haven't watched the show.
And yeah, if modern Trek had been written by people who served, it would have had a level of verisimilitude that only the original managed to have.

Military verisimilitude and Star Trek, in any incarnation, is really not to be taken all that seriously. One could argue in favour of one incarnation over the other in relative terms, I suppose, but in absolute terms, none is worthy of an "award" for accuracy.