There are mechanics that will 'force' you to delay dance as well which is the same as delaying a KS. In fact, sub cooldowns all really require 15 seconds of continuous uptime to make the most out of them, so you're more likely to have mechanics interfere with those than a 3.5 second KS. And the only fight you mentioned where there is really any issue is Thok. I've never had any issues on Naz or Shamans. I actually think its helpful on Malk for soaking because it clears the slow so if I hit it right after smash, I get to cleave the 4 slimes with it, and remove the slow.

Sub is insane on single target fights where you don't need to move much (Norushen/Sha/Iron Jug/Thok/Siegecrafter/etc).

It's still fighting off the stigma of being a pvp only spec.

It's not that insane - combat can dish out pretty similar damage. I think that we still need to figure out something on the rotation.

Example: i use the Hemo glyph - is worth to delay Rupture while FW is up if i have Hemo up already? Also Hemo is worth using during FW since its damage and subsequent dot will be affected by it (don't know if after the initial application you can make roll the dot through the entire fight like it had FW up).

in the current state of Soo there will be alot of bosses where you cannot KS imediatly when it comes of cd... same stands for SD but, Combat dmg stands and falls with useing cds right away, worst case you delay ks 1 second you lose 11 second cd .... as Sub you delay your SD alot anyway and it isnt that big of a deal if you have to.

I like Combat alot now with AoC, but if you cant reach that high uptimes of 35%-40% uptimes on Arush it falls behind Sub in my opinion...

@Coldkill: A Rupture under FW still deals more dmg than an Evis, and you might get an extra ambush in the vanish/dance because of the lower engery cost, BUT if you are certain that you would have to Evis without FW right after, you might evis with FW and rupture without FW after.... as for hemo, sure you can roll a buffed hemo under FW and/or MoS, but most of the time its not worth to delay/clip it for that.

Sub parses are below Combat parses on both Juggernaut and Norushen. Even then, you can talk about "strict single target fights" all you want, but what really matters is the content we're facing, and that has several cleave opportunities.

Combats Sim Dps is easier to reach imo. if you have full uptime. As Sub its way harder because you have to watch many things and the rotation is harder then combat. Combat can drop Rupture and still do decent Dps. Thats lame.
If your Raid doesnt need Combat Cleave to kill bosses, play Sub. Its far more entertaining and challenging in comparison to combat sinister spam fest

in the current state of Soo there will be alot of bosses where you cannot KS imediatly when it comes of cd... same stands for SD but, Combat dmg stands and falls with useing cds right away, worst case you delay ks 1 second you lose 11 second cd .... as Sub you delay your SD alot anyway and it isnt that big of a deal if you have to.

Thats a far smaller issue than you make it out to be. Not only do you very rarely absolutely need to delay it, but with AoC, a very large portion of the time delaying 10 seconds costs you nothing because your KS comes back up in the middle of AR/SB.

Immerseus is trivial and if anything is wiping you, it will be slimes reaching the boss for which combat cooldowns are far better at killing so combat cd effectiveness is still higher. Theres a very small amount of downtime on Galakras if you are killing the guys at the towers quickly, but this doesn't even matter because BF'ing for the majority of the fight makes combat cds more effective as they work on AE. There is no down time on iron jug unless your guild uses a retard strat. If you have much down time on Nazgrim, people should put more damage on the boss while he isn't in defensive and again combat cd's are more effective even with slight downtime because you can cleave with them. Can't really say much on the last 3 as I haven't done them, but none of those 'potential' down times cause sub cooldowns to be more effective than combat.

Originally Posted by uctar

you acctualy do if you play Combat right.

Most of the time you will leave Arush with 6-8 cps .... and ofc i exagerated, but the fact stands that you will allways lose more while dealying Combat cds than Sub cds, even without Restless Blades.

No. Your KS coming off CD after your first evis under AR/SB and your K coming off CD after your last evis under AR/SB result in the exact same thing and this is actually a pretty decent size window.

Such passion and hatred about picking specs in this thread. I think it was kael who posted in one of the threads in this forum,"It is a great time to be playing a rogue all 3 specs are within 5% of each other".So pick whatever is suitable for your raid comp, and whatever your tactics and gear allows. There will always be a spec that will sim high and that may or may not be the case in real world, remember 4pcT15 combat.I have played both combat and sub on iron juggernaut hc ,both cases ending up in similar numbers, was sub on the kill attempt as I simply like sub gameplay more than combat.

That is completely irrelevant. This thread isn't about 'is spec X viable'. This thread is about sub actually doing more which it doesn't really do. And that 5% comment was only applicable to certain fights. GL coming within 5% of a good combat rogue as a sub rogue on Galakras.

That is completely irrelevant. This thread isn't about 'is spec X viable'. This thread is about sub actually doing more which it doesn't really do. And that 5% comment was only applicable to certain fights. GL coming within 5% of a good combat rogue as a sub rogue on Galakras.

Nvm my previous comment is then totally out of context of current discussion , lesson learned.