Search form

You are here

Lucy’s Take on Josh’s Version of Pane Maggiore On Valentines Day - 2 Ways

Lucy’s Take on Josh’s Version of Pane Maggiore On Valentines Day - 2 Ways

Ever since Josh posted his Market Week 6 of Pane Maggiore, (modified for more whole grains on his week 24 post) we knew Lucy had to make this bread some way to get a chance to taste it but, since it was Valentine’s Day she decided to make it two ways. Here are those 2 posts

You might wonder what Valentine’s Day had to do with it but it all come down to food and our Valentines. I decided we were going to really splurge on Valentines Day Dinner this year with a decadent Cioppino - San Franciso Style with lots of seafood including lobster. Se we needed some SF style SD to sop up the great sauce from the bottom of the bowl.

The problem is that the girls like a more white and less sour SFSD bread than Lucy and I do - so we had to make two different boules. Luckily the original recipe Josh used for week 6 is less whole grain than his week 24 version and, since we wanted to try both, this was the perfect time to take these breads to the top of the bake list.

Admittedly, both of these breads have way more whole grains and are sourer than the typical Boudin SFSD that you would get on Fisherman’s Warf while devouring your Cioppinio We usually sacrifice tradition and holes for a version of the bread that has better flavor, health and nutritional characteristics – and this bake was no exception.

The other differences between the two boules was a higher hydration to go with the more whole grains of the larger boule and the various techniques used to bring out more sour in the larger boule.

Even though both breads used the same rye stiff sour starter that had been in the fridge for 3 weeks making itself more sour as time went on, the levain for each bread was built differently, one to bring out sour an the other to minimize it.

The levain feed for the sourer, more whole grain version consisted of the 22% extraction sifted out portion of the rye and wheat. We have found that feeding the sifted out bran and the chunkier portion of the home milled flour to the levain makes for more minerals, enzymes and other nutrients being made available to the wee beasties. This seems to bring out more sour in our previous experience doing this - but it also gets them wet for as long as possible so that they will be less likely to cut the gluten strands later on during gluten development.

The less sour version more white version was fed the 78% extracted portion of the wheat and no rye trying to make the levain les sour. Both levains were built up over (3) 4 hours stages but the more sour one was kept on the heating pad between 88 and 93 F while the less sour more white version was built at room temperature of 67-71 F. Cooler room temperatures promote yeast and LAB growth where high temperatures promote LAB over yeast dramatically and make for more sour.

The sourer levain was also refrigerated for 24 hours 1 hour after the 3rd feeding when it had risen 25% in volume. 36 F also favors LAB over yeast and makes for more sour. The less sour levain was not retarded. When the levain came out of the fridge to finish doubling in went right onto the heating pad.

We autolysed each dough for the same amount of time but the sourer dough version’s dry and wet ingredients were warmed on the heating pad before incorporation and kept on the heating pad during the 2 hour autolyse while the smaller more white version had to made due with room temperature to keep it less sour. But we did add VWG , red and white malt to the smaller loaf with less whole grains.

We did out usual 7, 2 and 1 minute slap and fold sessions 15 minutes apart and then 4 sets of S&F’s 20 minutes apart.. The larger dough with more whole grains and higher hydration felt much more slack than the other dough that had the VWG in it.

The more sour dough was left on the heating pas between these 7 dough manipulations so help the sour some more and the other dough was left on the counter under a bowl. Then it dawned on me that the VWG went into the wrong dough.

The dough with higher whole grains and way more AP flour was the one that should have had the VWG. This accounts for it being slacker compared to the other one that didn’t need any VWG but it anyway. So if you make these recipes, be sure to switch the VWG from one to the other if you use it at all. The slack dough turned out fine so it is not required and the other one would have been better without it too.

The great thing is that even though the 2 dough were developed and fermented at differing temperatures, it just so happens the yeast reproduce at the same rate at these two temperatures. This mean s that yeast in both were in sync and the two breads could be baked together at the same time since one was not proofing faster or ahead of the other.

We shaped the dough into boules and placed them in identical rice floured basket other than their size, bagged and placed in the fridge for an 8 hour retard. I didn’t think this would the enough time to proof the dough to 85% based on past experience but it did get to 80% for both of them.

We took the dough out of the fridge in the morning to let it warm up and continue proofing while we preheated Big Old Betsy to 550 F with top and bottom stones and readied the Pyrex pan with lava rocks and water to go on the bottom rack when the temperature hit 550 F for Mega Steam.

In the 15 minutes it takes for the steam to start billowing the stones have caught up to the air temperature of the oven and their lag time mitigated. We overturned the baskets onto parchment on a peel and slashed them, one at a time, sliding each separately, largest boule first, onto the stone back left and front right – a tight but nice fit. As we closed the door, we threw 1/2 C of water onto the bottom of the oven for instant steam.

The great thing about having ciopino for dinner is that it makes a fine soup and salad for lunch the next day.

On two minute increments we lowered the temperature from 550 F to 525, and 500. At the 6 minute mark we turned the oven down to 475 F for the final 6 minutes of steam After 12 minutes of total steam for the smaller loaf, we removed the steam and turned the oven down to 425 F, convection this time.

Lucy looked good with her Valetine's bow and hse feels better after her earlier teeth problems earlier this week

We rotated the bread every 5 minutes on the stone to ensure even browning and in 13 minutes, 25 minutes total, the small loaf was 205 F on the inside and it was removed to the cooling rack. In 5 minutes the larger loaf was also done.

A baked smothered breakfast chorizo burrito is always appreciated by the girls.

Both loaves sprang and bloomed well but the smaller loaf that had less whole grains actually browned up one shade darker, even though it was in the oven 5 minutes longer and it also had smaller blisters than the lighter colored more whole grain loaf that has a higher hydration. We are still working on what makes great blisters every time.

When we cut into the inside of each we were immediately stunned how much darker the crumb was for smaller less whole grain bread – the darker color of the crust had carried over to the crumb and then it dawned on Lucy that this one also had the white malt too. So, it appears that diastatic malt does help with coloring of the crust and crumb by adding extra enzymes to the mix to help release more sugars to brown and caramelize.

This year's Minneolas are some of the best tasting and some are huge!

Both crumbs were fairly open for these kinds of whole grain bread and the higher hydrated more whole grain bread was slightly more open but neither was nearly as open and Josh’s – but he’s a professional too and a much better baker. Josh really put a bold bake on his week 24 version too that we didn’t do.

The bread that was bred to be sourer certainly was but it was not overpowering and the bread that was supposed to be less sour was so but it wasn’t mildly sour either. When you start with a sour starter, then sour carries over a greater degree in bread that was designed to be less sour the rest of the way.

The earlier sunset from the front yard turned into this in back yard a few minutes later,

The less sour version also had a deeper and more complex flavor even though it had less whole grains. This one was also the one with the red non diastatic malt and they say red malt helps not only the color but contributes greatly to the flavor of the bread as well.

Can't really see the lighter wholegrain but darker colored version of this bread underneath, but the star of this breakfast is the Spicy Smoked Merguez Sausage. On the toasted bread is butter, Minneola marmalade and pepper jack cheese with the egg on top with half a banana and half a pear on the side - yummy! Here is what it looked like underneath but you still can't see the bread:-)

This experiment seems to back this up. The color and flavor that the malts provided was easily noticeable – a good thing to remember. The next time I cut the amount of red malt we use in the simmering rye berry scald for 100% whole rye pumpernickel…. Lucy can bite me on the ankle.

We understand why Josh likes this bread so much – it is terrific in either version we baked and both will be the perfect foil for tonight’s Valentine Day Cioppino. Lucy says happy Valentine to Max and his cats I say happy Valentine’s Day to all.

Lucy’s Sour 50% Whole Grain Take on Josh’s Latest Version of Pane Maggiore

Great looking crumb on both of these DA. Max approves wholeheartedly and apologizes for not sending his Lucy a valentines cookie. My wife ordered one for him but it has not shipped yet! Anyway, both of these breads look great and will go perfectly with your super dinner. Enjoy!

dinner was the girls naturally went for the lighter colored bread when i told them at one had 10% less whole grains than the other. Fooled them again. They were thinking that darker meant more whole grains, when in this case, it was just the opposite :-) They loved the bread but the ciopino wad the star of the show and the dinner one to remember.... we each had our own box of Russel Stover for dessert!

Got to love it when you can persuade your loved ones to eat something! I'd rather have one your chocolate pies than a box of Stover's :).

Just posted my bread from the other day. Not quite as exciting as yours but would have gone well with your seafood delight...I am working on a 36 hour method dough next. Have not used this method in a while and it always comes out great. FYI, I start my new job on Monday so all is well in my world. Thinking about getting Max a playmate soon. Lucy is too far away for him and he's lonely since his kitty brothers and sisters ignore him or run away in fear :).

like much either:-) Normally I'm not making two different breads at once. But since Josh had taken the original recipe he baked earlier up in whole grains the 2nd time and liked it I thought I would do both at one time and tone down the tang some for the girls but they liked the tangier more whole grain one just fine and never really tasted the other one. These are both really tasty for medium white SD breads but i like the heftier, more whole grain breads with seed and nuts too. Last Friday's bake was one for me and it was one fine bread.

I'm glad you liked the post Karin and i found some hemp seeds in the back of the grain pantry for the next bake too!

Both of those loaves look delicious and very well crafted. I'm impressed as you had to keep a lot of details separate for the two different styles of bread. Like you, I feed my starter with the left over siftings of bran from making high-extraction flour. Creates such nice aromas :)

and not both at the same time:-) This bake crossed two off the 'to do bake list'. They were both fine bread with great flavor. You would like both. Lucy started feeding the sifted out portion to the starter and levain builds not too long ago. We were really taken back how well they liked it and how much more sour they were too. Nothing smells like a stiff whole grain starter made with the hard bits sifted out - after it sits the fridge for a few weeks.

Okay...when did you sneak those breakfast photos in there! Also, poor Lucy looks pooped from all of her hard work trying to make sure you didn't mix up your breads...2 at one I think may have put her over the edge!

Nice Bake(s) Dab. I'm happy you enjoyed. Isn't the crust of this loaf worth the making of it alone. Oh and by the way even in my first bake I used all whole rye so much of the variation came from twists on the levain(s) and cutting out the commercial yeast entirely. This and the sesame levain are the most requested loaves from the farmer's market experiment(s). I think I've made 6 or 7 variations on this loaf. The very latest being my favorite. I believe it had the levain split between white and rye opposed the whole wheat.

Happy you got a hand in yet another variation of this fine old world bread. I suppose the original poster deserves a pat on the back for sharing.

After you first post, I knew right off we would have to bake this one and mess with it some. We like the wheat and rye mixed starter especially the just the hard sifted out bits. . But the Desem and rye sour, 3 stages each, are our two favorite non mixed ones too. The crust is great but the crumb is just as good so soft and moist too. We will put more whole grains in it next time and keep the malts too. I think this bread already made the top 5 list for 2014. It's a classic, thanks for posting it and I am especially glad you liked these two tries at baking it,

The only thing I don't like about the counter top is that it is just slightly too short for my smallest DO to fit with the lid on but it would fit if I took the top, screw in, grab handle off the lid and plugged the hole with a chopstick. It is tall nought to use a stainless steel bowl to cover the bread a cloche and to put 2 of Syvia's steaming cups in opposite catty corners with a max 750- 800 g loaf between them. The mini oven puts the best crust on bread by far - not bad for a tiny oven we got on sale for $99. If you get a lot of spring the top will get too close to the top elements and you have to cover it with foil or turn it over like I usually do so it doesn't burn before the middle gets done.

I like everything about the GE except the ceramic cook top. For electric is is OK but not as good as a gas one for the really hot temperatures I like to cook at - need gar for that but gas ovens are horrible. The oven is fine and makes good bread any way you want. I keep 2 stones top and bottom in it all the time. I like that it heats to 550 F instead of just 500 too.

Glad you like the bread Khalid and it means a lot to me, You have a very good eye too. These were some kind of fine loaves. It surprised me how good they were. Glad I baked them both since they are different in taste and looks.

Firstly, your bread looks fantastic. The wonderful golden colour of the loaves and the blistering especially.

Secondly, I note that for working the dough you say, "We did our usual 7, 2 and 1 minute slap and fold session 15 minutes apart and then four sets of S&F's 20 minutes apart." Might I ask, is this your standard method for hand dough, as I am having some issues with the height of my finished loaves? I have tried the Tartine/FWSY method, except it isn't producing the results I'd hoped for and was thinking of applying your method to their formulas.

I have been using for some time now. This was a 40% whole grain bread at 79% hydration. The more whole grains the higher the hydration a 20% whole grain bread might be at 75% hydration and a 10% whole grain bread might be at 72% hydration. The length of the first set of slap and folds is determined by when the dough stops sticking to the counter, It might be 6 - 10 minutes but the 2nd and 3rd set are usually a minute each. The stretch and folds could be 3 or 4 sets depending on how the dough feels . I like doing dough manipulations on 15 or 20 minute intervals depending on how loose it feels with the looser the dough the shorter the time.

I think the problem that bakers have with Tartine and Forkish loaves is that the hydration is high and they don't get the gluten developed enough and or they use flour with too low protein and or it is over proofed so the dough wants to spread once it comes out of the basket and is slashed rather than puff itself up properly in the DO or on the stone.

I used the slap and fold technique this morning whilst making the White Bread with Poolish from FSWY and it has ended up taking an inordinate amount of time and work to get the dough to come away from the table and have that smooth look.

Just have to wait and see how it comes out. I'll post some pictures.

I was already unsure whether to use the nationally produced flour (AP in particular), which is the freshest, but all brands are bleached and enriched (not just AP), or use some imported English unadulterated strong/plain flour from the supermarket.

I live in a hot and humid climate (Trinidad). Not sure if that makes much difference.

the problem lies in that the dough is too wet for the poor quality flour you describe. Cut back on the water and things should improve. When the dough stops sticking to the counter after 8 minutes of slap and folds then you have the right amount of water, If it doesn't stop sticking you need to add more flour. It is all in knowing what the dough should feel like.

All original site content copyright 2015 The Fresh Loaf unless stated otherwise. Content posted by community members is their own. The Fresh Loaf is not responsible for community member content. If you see anything inappropriate on the site or have any questions, contact me at floydm at thefreshloaf dot com. This site is powered by Drupal and Mollom.