In Korea, most people consider Felipe to have been the faster driver. He kept up with Alonso with the biggest easy and would have been challenging Webber.Japan is hard to judge, but apart from one mistake in qualifying, he looked must faster.USA, aside from qualifying, as soon as he passed all the drivers he was put behind, he was faster than Fernando. 15s in lap 16, 7s at the end.Brazil; Fernando had no business taking it easy. He knew he had to move forward as far as possible. Massa ran circles around everyone.

So I'm sorry, but to say there are no races in the last 3 years that could be an indication of Felipe having the potential to be faster than Fernando, I think is comprehensively wrong. Fernando has shown to be the faster one, but Felipe has definitely shown to have the potential.

Fernando said it all along that Felipe is a very fast teammate, pushing him, and he was right. No one moaned when Fernando said it, but few believed it. Also, it was the veto of Fernando that kept Felipe in the team - at that time there were voices all the way up to Montezemolo saying that only Ferrari decided who was in the team, because Alonso's pledge for Massa was so strong that many believed Felipe stayed in the team only because Fer wanted so.

So besides some jealous fans (jealous of Alonso, as neither Kimi nor Seb really can budge an inch with Fernando, unless they have superior material or politics on their side) no one ever made anything out of Felipe being faster than Fernando for three out of 17 races this year - Vettel had his races when Webber was better, Lewis had his share of races when Jenson was better. Nothing spectacular - we can start talking when Felipe is better in 11 races out of 20....

I agree mate. Detractors of Fernando use Felipe when he's slower than Fer to say that Fernando is "only" beating Felipe and that he only wants a "weak" teammate. When Flipe does better, it's Fernando is slower and he's getting old and losing it. Which ever side helps them diminish Fernando in the best way possible.

I speak these words not as an Alonso fan first, or a Massa fan first. I am TIFOSI. Which means I support the team regardless of the driver. Now obviously Fernando has been on my radar since early 2001 as a soon to be top driver. And his performances at Ferrari have made me grow fond of his race craft. But I'm no fan boy and only call things how I see them. Scuderia Ferrari fan first and foremost.

He spoke Portuguese for his 3rd place on his home race...

And he's not a chump...

We don't see the German drivers speaking German on their home race when they WIN, or Alonso in Spain, or Kamui in Japan... But little Felipe Baby has to go all tears and snot because poor Felipe Baby is bullied by his team and couldn't go for the win... Just grow a pair already and be a man somewhere else, not on a team that treats you like that!

For sure...

You're entitled to your opinion mate. I think the tears in Brazil were because since his accident, the past few races in 2012 is when he resembled the Massa of old. He was finally quick and able to compete with the best. Funny I didn't see you posting in the RBR thread about Mark moving over for Seb or the STR for them guys moving over. The fact is when one teammate has a shot at a title and the other one doesn't, regardless of the team, the teammate should move over. But hey, you think Felipe is a chump all you want my friend.

In Korea, most people consider Felipe to have been the faster driver. He kept up with Alonso with the biggest easy and would have been challenging Webber.Japan is hard to judge, but apart from one mistake in qualifying, he looked must faster.USA, aside from qualifying, as soon as he passed all the drivers he was put behind, he was faster than Fernando. 15s in lap 16, 7s at the end.Brazil; Fernando had no business taking it easy. He knew he had to move forward as far as possible. Massa ran circles around everyone.

So I'm sorry, but to say there are no races in the last 3 years that could be an indication of Felipe having the potential to be faster than Fernando, I think is comprehensively wrong. Fernando has shown to be the faster one, but Felipe has definitely shown to have the potential.

You obviously did not read my full post. Because I said Fernando is not so perfect he can't be beat by Massa. I said the same thing in the Massa forum. Of course Felipe can beat Fernando. He has before and will do so again. I specifically said Felipe isn't a chump. He's quicker than most give him credit for. But you can't say after 17 races of getting your butt kicked by someone that you're now quicker than them because of a result or two.

Again, people use Felipe to diminish Fernando saying Felipe isn't a worthy teammate all the time. Then when Fernando is out-performed, Felipe is much quicker and Fer is losing it. Do you honestly not see the contradiction here?

When the Seb haters earlier this year said Mark was kicking Seb's butt and was so much quicker, you didn't agree correct? Just like when Seb haters say Seb has it easy because his teammate is only Webber. See what I'm saying mate?

Again, people use Felipe to diminish Fernando saying Felipe isn't a worthy teammate all the time. Then when Fernando is out-performed, Felipe is much quicker and Fer is losing it. Do you honestly not see the contradiction here?

Exactly. Above is the point I was trying (lazily) to make, but your whole post hits the nail on head.

I don't understand why posters are being criticized for not wanting Alonso to win another WDC.
I, for example, am not a fan of Alonso and therefore hope he doesn't win another WDC. What's wrong with that?

Some people bark at the wrong tree around here.

I think he will get a few more titles before he retires. He's too good not to win again.

I don't think Fernando Alonso is capable of beating Sebastian Vettel, Lewis Hamilton, Kimi Raikkonen & Jenson Button in a season if next years cars are 'almost equal' in characteristics to each other & super reliable.

Contrary to popular beliefs, Alonso didn't win it when he had the best overall package of Quick Car, Reliability, 100% focus, 100% Strategy, 100% No.1 in 2010 & 2012, so I fail to see a reason why he'd do any better.

A 23 year old, 'immature' baby-faced driver has had his number for 3 years in a row.... at a time when Alonso was allowed by Ferrari to run the team to his demands. I don't think Fernando Alonso is even going to get his usual No.1 Status over Massa in 2013 within Ferrari anymore because of his complete failure to get the ultimate results for the team in partnership with Massa.

Let alone win the wdc, a huge probability has occurred coz of the 2nd half of this season that Massa might actually get the better of Alonso in 2013. Even if Alonso beats Massa, FA has had the tendency to "Choke" in every championship year like 2006 (Renault is conspiring/but won), 2007 (Mclaren is conspiring), 2010 & 2012 (Newey is conspiring).

So the other 4 World Champions on the grid, who have shown better mental strength, class & some brilliant skills in 2012 have a higher possibility of winning the championship in 2013.

Alonso has lost the title three out of the last six seasons by minimal points. There is no reason he can't win another if he is given the right equipment. Anyone who says otherwise watches a different F1 then myself!

Alonso has lost the title three out of the last six seasons by minimal points. There is no reason he can't win another if he is given the right equipment. Anyone who says otherwise watches a different F1 then myself!

Contrary to popular beliefs, Alonso didn't win it when he had the best overall package of Quick Car, Reliability, 100% focus, 100% Strategy, 100% No.1 in 2010 & 2012.

Alonso has lost the title three out of the last six seasons by minimal points. There is no reason he can't win another if he is given the right equipment. Anyone who says otherwise watches a different F1 then myself!

You have a point but then again, Alonso was very lucky in 2010 and 2012. If Vettel's car wasn't so unreliable in 2010 or McLaren wasn't so hellbent to self destruct in 2012, he would be without a chance in both years. My point is that Alonso hasn't been a WDC contender on pure speed (as a package) since many years.

It's just amazing how one teammate can clearly beat(polite) his teammate for 17 out of 20 races. But in the last 3 races where there are mixed results, the driver who has been on top all season is suddenly slower. This is preposterous. I touched on this in the Massa thread, contrary to popular belief, Felipe is not a chump. Yes he struggled much of the season. At the end we finally got to see the Felipe we've seen before, fast. Fernando Alonso is most certainly beatable, by his teammate, by other drivers. But the end of this season where Felipe was competitive with his teammate is not an indication that Felipe is quicker. But to each his own.

I've re-read this comment because at first I thought you were bashing Alonso and then figured out you weren't, but I'll still make my point in line with what you're saying. Alonso like any driver is beatable over 2 or 3 races but over a season is a wholly different subject...

I agree mate. Detractors of Fernando use Felipe when he's slower than Fer to say that Fernando is "only" beating Felipe and that he only wants a "weak" teammate. When Flipe does better, it's Fernando is slower and he's getting old and losing it. Which ever side helps them diminish Fernando in the best way possible.

Although I'm not an Alonso fan, I have to agree. It seems that there is a large swing in opinion from "Alonso was perfect to 2012" to "Alonso had problems to beat even Massa" after the end of the season. I think overall, it's pretty clear that Alonso has comprehensively beaten Massa and drove a great season. Possibly being slower in a few races does not change this picture.

I don't think Fernando Alonso is capable of beating Sebastian Vettel, Lewis Hamilton, Kimi Raikkonen & Jenson Button in a season if next years cars are 'almost equal' in characteristics to each other & super reliable.

Contrary to popular beliefs, Alonso didn't win it when he had the best overall package of Quick Car, Reliability, 100% focus, 100% Strategy, 100% No.1 in 2010 & 2012, so I fail to see a reason why he'd do any better.

A 23 year old, 'immature' baby-faced driver has had his number for 3 years in a row.... at a time when Alonso was allowed by Ferrari to run the team to his demands. I don't think Fernando Alonso is even going to get his usual No.1 Status over Massa in 2013 within Ferrari anymore because of his complete failure to get the ultimate results for the team in partnership with Massa.

Let alone win the wdc, a huge probability has occurred coz of the 2nd half of this season that Massa might actually get the better of Alonso in 2013. Even if Alonso beats Massa, FA has had the tendency to "Choke" in every championship year like 2006 (Renault is conspiring/but won), 2007 (Mclaren is conspiring), 2010 & 2012 (Newey is conspiring).

So the other 4 World Champions on the grid, who have shown better mental strength, class & some brilliant skills in 2012 have a higher possibility of winning the championship in 2013.

I don't think Fernando Alonso is capable of beating Sebastian Vettel, Lewis Hamilton, Kimi Raikkonen & Jenson Button in a season if next years cars are 'almost equal' in characteristics to each other & super reliable.

Contrary to popular beliefs, Alonso didn't win it when he had the best overall package of Quick Car, Reliability, 100% focus, 100% Strategy, 100% No.1 in 2010 & 2012, so I fail to see a reason why he'd do any better.

A 23 year old, 'immature' baby-faced driver has had his number for 3 years in a row.... at a time when Alonso was allowed by Ferrari to run the team to his demands. I don't think Fernando Alonso is even going to get his usual No.1 Status over Massa in 2013 within Ferrari anymore because of his complete failure to get the ultimate results for the team in partnership with Massa.

Let alone win the wdc, a huge probability has occurred coz of the 2nd half of this season that Massa might actually get the better of Alonso in 2013. Even if Alonso beats Massa, FA has had the tendency to "Choke" in every championship year like 2006 (Renault is conspiring/but won), 2007 (Mclaren is conspiring), 2010 & 2012 (Newey is conspiring).

So the other 4 World Champions on the grid, who have shown better mental strength, class & some brilliant skills in 2012 have a higher possibility of winning the championship in 2013.

I've re-read this comment because at first I thought you were bashing Alonso and then figured out you weren't, but I'll still make my point in line with what you're saying. Alonso like any driver is beatable over 2 or 3 races but over a season is a wholly different subject...

Yes. For some reason, there is less noise about Webber having beaten Vettel on occasion this year. It is to be expected in both cases and is not of particular concern.

I don't think Fernando Alonso is capable of beating Sebastian Vettel, Lewis Hamilton, Kimi Raikkonen & Jenson Button in a season if next years cars are 'almost equal' in characteristics to each other & super reliable.

Contrary to popular beliefs, Alonso didn't win it when he had the best overall package of Quick Car, Reliability, 100% focus, 100% Strategy, 100% No.1 in 2010 & 2012, so I fail to see a reason why he'd do any better.

A 23 year old, 'immature' baby-faced driver has had his number for 3 years in a row.... at a time when Alonso was allowed by Ferrari to run the team to his demands. I don't think Fernando Alonso is even going to get his usual No.1 Status over Massa in 2013 within Ferrari anymore because of his complete failure to get the ultimate results for the team in partnership with Massa.

Let alone win the wdc, a huge probability has occurred coz of the 2nd half of this season that Massa might actually get the better of Alonso in 2013. Even if Alonso beats Massa, FA has had the tendency to "Choke" in every championship year like 2006 (Renault is conspiring/but won), 2007 (Mclaren is conspiring), 2010 & 2012 (Newey is conspiring).

So the other 4 World Champions on the grid, who have shown better mental strength, class & some brilliant skills in 2012 have a higher possibility of winning the championship in 2013.

Swingometer regarding Alonso is really annoying. When he looked like winning 2012. he was 'possibly best of all time' by some his fanboys, and now that he lost it by a quite small margin he's not capable of beating other top drivers according to his haters.

Swingometer regarding Alonso is really annoying. When he looked like winning 2012. he was 'possibly best of all time' by some his fanboys, and now that he lost it by a quite small margin he's not capable of beating other top drivers according to his haters.

Alonso hasn't won a World Championship in the period of 2007-2012.... that's 6 YEARS AGO!!! Out of these 6 years, he was undisputed No.1 at big budget teams in Renault 2008-2009 & Scuderia Ferrari 2010-2011-2012.

During this same period with Alonso on the grid, drivers that have won the World Championship are Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel*3.

So I don't see a reason why some folks here are going nuts over a statement that says Alonso won't win against the other 4 World Champions on the grid if everything is equal. If he hasn't done it with kingly status at Ferrari 3 years, it will only get tougher as the grid keeps getting closer.

Alonso will run everyone close, and will definitely win the WDC next year if he gets off twitter and stop getting so psyched about politics & samurai stuff.

Alonso hasn't won a World Championship in the period of 2007-2012.... that's 6 YEARS AGO!!! Out of these 6 years, he was undisputed No.1 at big budget teams in Renault 2008-2009 & Scuderia Ferrari 2010-2011-2012.

During this same period with Alonso on the grid, drivers that have won the World Championship are Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel*3.

So I don't see a reason why some folks here are going nuts over a statement that says Alonso is not capable of beating the other 4 World Champions on the grid if everything is equal. If he hasn't done it with kingly status at Ferrari 3 years, it will only get tougher as the grid keeps getting closer.

Well, the simplest and logical reason why you aren't taken serious is that things were never equal, and likely won't ever be. Most people seem able to recognize that.

Alonso hasn't won a World Championship in the period of 2007-2012.... that's 6 YEARS AGO!!! Out of these 6 years, he was undisputed No.1 at big budget teams in Renault 2008-2009 & Scuderia Ferrari 2010-2011-2012.

During this same period with Alonso on the grid, drivers that have won the World Championship are Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel*3.

So I don't see a reason why some folks here are going nuts over a statement that says Alonso won't win against the other 4 World Champions on the grid if everything is equal. If he hasn't done it with kingly status at Ferrari 3 years, it will only get tougher as the grid keeps getting closer.

Alonso will run everyone close, and will definitely win the WDC next year if he gets off twitter and stop getting so psyched about politics & samurai stuff.

Mabye because there's 2 things:1. Things are not equal for all, and what is equal is mostly subjective.2. There's this luck factor which usually plays big role in F1.

If Alonso got to a point where he can win the WDC title in last race 3 times in last 6 season then its clearly he can beat everyone. Not that I claim he will, I just don't understand how someone can claim with certianty he won't.

Alonso hasn't won a World Championship in the period of 2007-2012.... that's 6 YEARS AGO!!! Out of these 6 years, he was undisputed No.1 at big budget teams in Renault 2008-2009 & Scuderia Ferrari 2010-2011-2012.

During this same period with Alonso on the grid, drivers that have won the World Championship are Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel*3.

So I don't see a reason why some folks here are going nuts over a statement that says Alonso won't win against the other 4 World Champions on the grid if everything is equal. If he hasn't done it with kingly status at Ferrari 3 years, it will only get tougher as the grid keeps getting closer.

Alonso will run everyone close, and will definitely win the WDC next year if he gets off twitter and stop getting so psyched about politics & samurai stuff.

To be fair - I don't think Vettel or Hamilton would have won in this years Ferrari either. 2010 - maybe Hamilton could have won. Vettel too but it was a game of roulette.

Alonso was there hanging in the title fight because of sheer consistency and lucky stars . Same for Kimi to be so close to the top of the table

Others (esp McLaren with the fastest car were constantly shooting themselves in the foot , RBR also did have their share of car blow ups and under-performing stages which made it look a close fight. It wasnt.

But when you have 2 better packages with fast drivers like Hamilton and Vettel, consistency and rival DNFs can only take you so far.

Alonso drove quite well - all things considered and he should be satisfied knowing he gave 100% - thats what counts at the end of day.

Yes, he drove quite well. But he also knows that with a little more luck he could have five WDCs in his pocket.

The 2012 Alonso in his despair has declared himself as the world's #1, disregarding what the points tables tell. He's the Samuari, the Gladiator... what will he tell us next year?

The Buzz Aldrin He just needs to take a step back and maybe, just maybe, acknowledge that Vettel is a great driver, or for that matter, go a season without expressing how Vettel isn't.If you keep telling yourself year after year that you're losing to an inferior driver, it's a matter of time before you snap.

The Buzz Aldrin He just needs to take a step back and maybe, just maybe, acknowledge that Vettel is a great driver, or for that matter, go a season without expressing how Vettel isn't.If you keep telling yourself year after year that you're losing to an inferior driver, it's a matter of time before you snap.

Not getting into if he's right or wrong, but the bolded doesn't apply as long as he can point to Newey as the reason for not beating Vettel.

Well, the man seems competent enough and Ferrari has a proven track record in constructing fairly competitive race cars so I guess I'd be somewhat surprised if he managed to continue his current title-losing streak from here to retirement. Then again, six years ago I would've doubted his ability to avoid titles even for this long so what do I know.

Yes, he drove quite well. But he also knows that with a little more luck he could have five WDCs in his pocket.

The 2012 Alonso in his despair has declared himself as the world's #1, disregarding what the points tables tell. He's the Samuari, the Gladiator... what will he tell us next year?

I have the feeling that the most obvious despair here is that of people grasping at any straw to make Alonso look bad...

You have just stated that he only needed a bit of luck to have five WDCs, which would make him second only to Schumacher, and then go on to criticise him for considering himself a great driver.

But the most incredible thing is that this guy that you criticise because of his superiority complex is on record stating that he has the championships he deserves, no more and no less.

Seriously, though: why do people who don't like the guy hang onto every word he says? Bear in mind that he often speaks in one language and gets google-translated into another: it makes no sense to analyse every tiny detail trying to find a hidden meaning in the exact term or grammatical structure he uses. Even when he speaks in English one can tell that he is far from perfect in his command of the language, so I doubt he really intends to pass subtle messages with a particular choice of words...

I have the feeling that the most obvious despair here is that of people grasping at any straw to make Alonso look bad...

It is not my intention to make Alonso look bad. How could I? Who cares for what I am writing?

Just this Worldchampion-of-the-Hearts-Samurai-Gladiator stuff won't get through to me. F1 is a sport which is ultimately decided by points, not by sympathy or worthiness. If I'm second then it's time to congratulate the winner. That's just my humble opinion.

Not getting into if he's right or wrong, but the bolded doesn't apply as long as he can point to Newey as the reason for not beating Vettel.

And Alonso would be entirely delusional if he believed it, but he doesn't. It isn't like Alonso built his Ferrari that got him second, is it? So of course everyone concerned with the car matters, but that says nothing at all about the drivers. Alonso was trying to say it does to elevate his position and demean Seb's. But that was while the season was on; he isn't bothering with mind games now. Now he has turned his focus inward.

If I'm second then it's time to congratulate the winner. That's just my humble opinion.

This.You can congratulate him when he gets out of the car, but when you spend three years saying devalueing things about the guy that has been beating you for three years, it doesn't cultivate much good-will.

And Alonso would be entirely delusional if he believed it, but he doesn't. It isn't like Alonso built his Ferrari that got him second, is it? So of course everyone concerned with the car matters, but that says nothing at all about the drivers. Alonso was trying to say it does to elevate his position and demean Seb's. But that was while the season was on; he isn't bothering with mind games now. Now he has turned his focus inward.

No he wasn't and to say he was is not being rational. Now I will agree that if this comes out of Fernando's mouth another time or two, I will be inclined to agree with you. But as it stands, I just don't believe that's the case.

Fact of the matter is Newey is the best designer in F1 right now, no ifs ands or but's about it. It is also true that Newey has built the best car on the grid in the last 3 years. Both are facts that fans, pundits & teams all acknowledge and talk about. No Fernando didn't come out and praise Seb, but the Newey comment is true. He's not only racing against Seb, who has won the WDC the past 2 years(at time of comment) but he(Fer) and his designers are also going up against the guy who every team in F1 want to design their cars. It was also an attempt to potentially flatter Newey as its common knowledge Ferrari have made attempts to get him to Maranello.

Not everything out of Fernando's mouth is controversial or meant to demean or diminish his competition. But one would have to be slightly objective and have no preconceived notions about the person in question and his motives. Again, if I hear him say this much more, I would be more inclined to side with you, although as now & possibly then, it doesn't mean the statement is not or would not be true.

It is not my intention to make Alonso look bad. How could I? Who cares for what I am writing?

Just this Worldchampion-of-the-Hearts-Samurai-Gladiator stuff won't get through to me. F1 is a sport which is ultimately decided by points, not by sympathy or worthiness. If I'm second then it's time to congratulate the winner. That's just my humble opinion.