Judge: Translation of dubula ibhunu upsetting

2011-05-19 17:39

Johannesburg - The translation of the song lyrics "dubula ibhunu" as "shoot the boer" was what was upsetting people, Judge Collin Lamont said during closing arguments in the hate speech case against ANCYL president Julius Malema on Thursday.

The judge said however, that this did not mean that the audience to which Malema was singing the song translated the words in the same way.

"It is common cause that [shoot the boer] could be the translation, but we can't say it is the proper translation," Lamont said in the South Gauteng High Court, sitting as the Equality Court.

"The context of the song is destroy the regime [apartheid]."

He said words sung in a particular language might have a meaning to one audience and that a translation could have a meaning to a different audience.Lamont was speaking during closing arguments by AfriForum and Tau-SA.

AfriForum's lawyer Martin Brassey said the ANC had failed to establish that the song sung during the struggle years against apartheid was not considered inflammatory.

Tau-SA's lawyer Roelof du Plessis agreed.

He said the ANC should have held a formal media conference when the translation of the song lyrics was first published explaining what it meant and why it was being sung.

Last month the words "dubhula ibhunu" and their symbolic, literal and historic meaning were scrutinised by witnesses from farmers' organisation Tau-SA and civil rights group AfriForum. The latter brought the case against Malema and the ANC.

The ANC has defended Malema's singing of the lyrics four times in South Africa and once in Zimbabwe last year.

Comments

Daniel123 - 2011-05-19 17:54

"The context of the song is destroy the regime [apartheid]."
That was done 17 years ago with a democratic election.
Just a few simple questions from an ordinary citizen:
What regime are they trying to destroy now?
Why did the previous presidents (Madiba and Mbeki) stopped people from singing it in the past?
What is the meaning of pointing your hand like a fire-arm when you sing this song?

wattalotokak - 2011-05-19 18:07

I agree...! ACTUALLY why did they NOT say it as it was "Kill the Apartheid!!!"????!!! Why did they actually take the word that describes a minority?

Krush - 2011-05-19 18:12

If the song means "kill the regime" then why were they singing the song in english as "kill the farmer?"

gerhard - 2011-05-19 18:17

Simple, lack of leadership. Do and say popular things and stay in power. The revolution created a legacy that is biting the new regime in it's butt. Difficult to tell people to be constructive when they were told to be revolutionary for so long. Easier to toy-toy than to work. Blame is the name of the game.

wattalotokak - 2011-05-19 18:20

@Krush: exactly my point of view too...! If we are any more confused, they set us right with translating it in ENGLISH...!

Willem - 2011-05-19 18:40

One more question Daniel123.... if the song means "kill apartheid" then why did Malema decide to suddenly sing "kiss apartheid"....? That means they don't really care that much about the apartheid?

eyrie - 2011-05-20 13:21

shoot the k*** and when I say k*** I mean the evil people killing the white farmers

Sollash - 2011-05-20 15:45

Did the previos presidents stop DUBULA IBHULU or SHOOT THE BOER MENEER,will the outlawing,banning,barring,whatever you wanna call it stop the vast majority of people from singing it,did we stop singing it pre 1989 when it was illegal.Is the proposed dialogue not the right forum to debate about this song and many others which are still sung,I DOUBT SO!!!!!!

Pupuzela - 2011-05-19 17:58

Judge, translate this: WTF are you thinking??

Yoni - 2011-05-19 22:36

He's making sure there's a promotion waiting ahead in the road.

umlaut - 2011-09-06 09:22

He was keeping his options open. If he gives the 'wrong' judgement then they may practice on him what they preach. (Simply said he was intimidated by fear, and the same hate song, of what may happen if he says the wrong things)

semaj - 2011-05-19 17:58

Get a life Lamont, or better still, get knowledge of what words mean to various groups. If I sang kill a k..... I would be in for the high jump. When Bok van Blerk sings about de la Rey he is singing about what is almost ancient history, albeit about a struggle between Boer and Brit; nowhere is a there a reference in that song to modern-day situations. Unfortunate for you that you do not connect "Boer" with white but blather on about semantics. There are far too many clever lawyers around who twist facts to suit the oportunistic moments of an argument.

Rob Gunning - 2011-05-19 18:07

Apparently you can as long as it's in the context of fighting poor service delivery and vigilently opposing corruption.

mario - 2011-05-19 18:49

Yup the "k" word in historical context meant a small dog that bites your ankles, like gay meant happy, so is it right for me to use the "k" word cause due to the issue of translation it seems all is fair in love and war....

chris van rensburg - 2011-05-19 18:50

The judge has no balls and is trying to avoid a direct judgement by way of a technicality.Trying to be clever by indirectly distracting attention on the matter at issue.

Ngqeku - 2011-05-19 18:01

Good shot,Judge Lamont

Andrew - 2011-05-19 18:02

THis case is so YESTERDAY!!! BORING!!!!

BigMoose - 2011-05-19 18:08

Another chicken-shirt judge.

iqanda - 2011-05-19 18:08

give this judge a bells, he is a pioneer for whites to follow to learn not to be racists.

Rob Gunning - 2011-05-19 18:15

So accepting racism is being non racist? You do realise how easily the roles could be reversed right?

schmurtle - 2011-05-19 18:31

dibhul Iqanda
how does that feel
wop!!

Axiom - 2011-05-19 21:44

Surely you mean Black Label and not Bell's?

Sollash - 2011-05-20 15:50

@ Schmurtle,you alone the meaning and the feeling of dibhul Iqanda mean,cant find its meaning in all the NGUNI lnguages spoken in SA,you dumb pink ass!!!!!!!!

william.botha - 2011-05-19 18:10

Frankly I couldn't give a damn what they sing or chant. Their actions speaks loudly, their intentions is quite clear. I would love to have a one on one with Julius Malema.

Sollash - 2011-05-20 15:52

Go on and organise it,dont just say it here,he sings the song publicly so go and look for him and your way tell your friends to accompany you,hahaha!!!!!!!!!!

Gavin - 2011-05-19 18:11

What a joke....

Vaal Donkie - 2011-05-19 18:18

Nou toe nou.

EDI2000 - 2011-05-19 18:19

I fail to see how a call to arms to kill any race , creed or religion can be seen as anything but exactly what it says?? I'm mean considering all the other comments made by our woodwork genius saying that "shoot the boer" is not what he means or is implying aka "genocide" demeans and redicules the justice of this country.

croix - 2011-05-20 14:18

I reckon he is fully supported in 'demeaning' our justice system, by one Judge Lamont?

iqanda - 2011-05-19 18:24

the only reason boers think that the song means to kill them is cause their guilty complex about their treatment of blacks makes them think it is directed at them.

EDI2000 - 2011-05-19 19:17

iqanda you obviously condone the murder and torture of women and children which die daily at the hands of souless people, which makes you just such a person SOULESS... I'm saddend by the fact that I have to breath the same air as such a creature as you because you have no right to be called a human....

Krolie - 2011-05-20 07:05

@iqanda. Some weeks ago after reading more positive thoughts from you I said I was changing my mind about you. Sorry. I retract that. You are inherently a racist and will never change. Such a shame that you were fed all this c@@p instead of "pap" as a young child.
Hopefully you will wake up and prove to be a real SA citizen at some point in your life.
Go crawl back under your rock.

Brian - 2011-05-19 18:28

I have actually heard on TV these guys sing "Kill the boer, kill the famma" in broken English. Will be bad lawyering if this evidence was not put before the court.

call a spade - 2011-05-19 18:28

Be prepared.

paulmandlankosi - 2011-05-19 19:12

For what?

schmerz - 2011-05-20 13:20

to shoot 'non-believers'

Graeme - 2011-05-19 18:29

Common people, did you really expect any other outcome!!! If the court case was hell in any other country or Southern Africa with a different leadership you would have had a different verdict. The Judge is obviously trying to appease the ANC who he works for

george - 2011-05-19 18:40

This judge is enlightened indeed. It is clear that he is not a DA member.

semaj - 2011-05-19 18:52

obviously george, but judges or lawyers should not be members of any political parties

semaj - 2011-05-19 18:54

membership cards should lead to immediate disqualification in any trial involving polit6ics

if it smell like smoke than by golie its smoke ANC again the biggest racists of all time if you dont belong to a certain group although you are black they will look down on you. And so by the way Tony what are you gonna do now seen that you lost so badley at the polls i have never seen n more useless cadre like you and that fransman idiot' oh you will be deployed mark my word you have failed your master. please use your energy on something better next time you will never again be the top dog in the western cape accept it viva whoever

Zorro - 2011-05-19 19:04

It is an African CULTURE! Taking farms as well as not being able to utilise it. Refer Kenya - 1958, and Zimbabwe - Currently.

Mundu - 2011-05-19 19:29

This judge is definately on the ANC payrole. Dickhead!

Deon - 2011-05-19 19:39

To me this "TRANSLATES" into : My nose is brown from sucking up to the ANC. Please let me keep my position after Juju becomes president. Judge, are you f..... crazy? How the hell can it mean anything different than kill the boer? Isn't the definition of translating something like : stating the same meaning in a different language? Aren't you contradicting yourself. You sound like that brownnosed c.cksucker that decided the fraudulent weapon scandal should not be investigated? So much for a independent judicial system. The alternative is that you are actually Leon Schuster and this is part of some clever slapstick scene in which he shocks people and then show them a hidden camera showing their facial expressions.For f..k's sake, white people get fired from their jobs for using half as rude language toward other races.

Bewildered - 2011-05-19 20:21

What is not important is the intention of the person singing the song, rather the interpretation of the one hearing it. unfortunately the ppl hearing the words take them literally, and that should be the main point of argument. If everyone understood that this was all figure of speech, then a lot of farmers would still be alive.

Iqanda, buddy, friend,little guy: your name means egg or zero, but in the parallel universe where you live, I suppose it means prince, chief or rex of the stupid. See , it is all about context.

croix - 2011-05-20 14:26

Here's a new version : "Skiet die eierkoppe"!

Shane - 2011-05-20 05:23

And how are they going to destroy apartheid..... BY SHOOTING THE BOER.

Krolie - 2011-05-20 07:29

Apartheid no 1 died 17 years ago. The ANC created apartheid no 2 (current) so that they can continue singing a "revolutionary song" which they adopted and now claim that it is their song, & to incite their people into action.
They take and discard whatever & whenever it pleases and suits them. Unfortunately the bulk of their people have no idea they are dealing with a "new" apartheid created by their leader, and still believe it is the "old" apartheid of the previous regime they are fighting and voting against.
One of our staff members said yesterday she voted for the ANC. I asked her what has the ANC done for HER in particular to get her vote. She said "they gave us our freedom". Asked her what else have they given, does she have electricity, water etc, and she said yes. Asked her who gave her that, and she said the DA! They are all stuck on the freedom part and don't think further. They are very happy having everything else and expect much more from the DA! Take note, NOT THE ANC! Yet, they are expected to vote ANC?!?!
Getting back to "Shooting the Boer". I believe that the lesser educated populace take that literally and will continue so. I think the murders of the farmers and families are a direct result of this song. Why? Because they idolise Malema, and if he makes such a BIG thing in singing it, well by golly, he means it. Literally!
Sorry if I stepped on anybodies toes, just felt that in our democratic country I also have a right to voice out what I think.

MaryB - 2011-05-20 07:50

Well in that case, since old Julius will be found not guilty as usual; I will defnitely support Steve Hofmeyr when he sings his new song using the "K" word. Everyone must just remember that it is the white peoples' history and should be remembered and the word is used "in context" just like Malema is using "shoot the boer".

Nicholas Smith - 2011-05-20 08:54

why the hell is this so important? i do not believe this song will create or cause any more murders. THis topic is soo arb and frankly a pathetic excuse for standing on soap boxes

Janco - 2011-05-20 13:38

Let's go back in history just to show what words from influential people can do, Germany ..... holocaust.... WW2 ring any bells???? There is, and always were, a huge racial divide in this country - and will most probably always be. If you take the collective IQ of these "people" who sing this "struggle" song, again what struggle???, and you take the comments made by Julius that all white people are criminals what the flying F@CK to you think will happen, huh? Some idiot and his friends will take it literally and kill the BOER because 1. they think of us as criminals and 2. they recon we stole their land 3. we are white, the "opressor" and 4.BECUASE some moron told them that. You'd sing a different tune if you, or someone you know or loved, had been victim to racial violence. WAKE UP!!!!

Greybeard - 2011-05-24 10:39

Do a little research into how many farm murders there have been since the beginning of this trial.....

Bonzer - 2011-05-20 13:01

I can see murderers using this a defense in the future. They will say the court made it legal to sing "kill the farmer" and that will be their defense.

I seem to remember people getting VERY upset about a song called "Delarey" a few years back and it didn't have a chorus about shooting anyone...

croix - 2011-05-20 14:11

This judge is already preparing the way to let the "bedpan mechanics" off the hook, coz the've won big in the elections? It obviously means: SHOOT (dubula) THE BOER (ibhunu)- FFS what ELSE on this earth can it mean?

Basson - 2011-05-20 14:21

The comments made by the JUJU fans is clear, that this is more than just a struggle song. The song had one purpose to envoke anger and hate towards "whites", A struggle song should be sang when they are struggling. Accourding to my knowledge JUJU doesn`t have a worry these days or that he is struggling well except for reading and writing. So the purpose is to envoke anger and hate once again. And the "system" is going to allow that, when are they going WAKE UP ? Hatred towards anybody is not a switch you can just turn on and off. Great guys throw petrol on an open flame, just watch out and don`t burn yourselfs.

Andries - 2011-05-20 14:22

I can not help but to be amazed at the lack of knowledge shown by all concerned, including Judge Lamont, Malema, the ANC, about the history, origins and meaning of the chant "Kill the Boer". If any of them, including the illustrious Prof Pierre de Vos, had done some basic research they would have found that "Kill the Boer" only originated as a chant in 1993. In an article in the March 2010 edition of Leadership Magazine the whole history and origins of the chant is given. It was the brain child of the then ANCYL leader Peter Mokaba who used it for the first time in 1993. He based it on the PAC's "One bullet, one settler" and "one church, one bomb" chant. The Human Rights Council has declared the song hate speech long before Judge Halgryn did so. The ANC has stated more than once through Monthlante, Pallo Jordan and others that it was never a struggle song. It doe snot form part of the selection of 25 struggle songs produced by the ANC in a double CD. When Mokaba started using the chant after the assasination of Chris Hani, the struggle was over. Go and read the article. Get educated and don't be like a bunch of fools who rush in where angels fear to tread. If the good Judge does not understand what is meant by the song, maybe he should ask the deputy president. In fact at a meeting attended by Mandela and Mbeki the crowd chanted the song and both men shut them up. And will Malema's refusal to pay the fine of R50 000 imposed by the Equality Court be taken into account here.

Sollash - 2011-05-20 15:59

Cde Andries,the song is AYESABA AMAGWALA with the churus od DUBULA IBHULU.It was sung way before 1993.Peter Mokaba's SHOOT THE BOER was a chant not a song as certainly whenever he rendered it he definitely did not sing but chanted it,uyeva?