If any of you guys wanna float down there and chain yourself to the log, I'll be happy to show you where it's located and I can even call the eyewitness news crew.:clown:

JonB

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Jon,

Maybe we can get some hollywood super-star (Tomcat, Bono, Leo DiCaprio, Tim and Sandra) down there to stage a protest.Once the word is out college kids will show up and actually chain themselves to the log (isn't Evergreen State College pretty close?). We'll call the TV crews, stage a fund raiser and have a concert to raise awareness. We can get a who branding initaive going brining in huge Corporate partners. Soon soccer moms across America will be buying faux wood I-phones and puting wood colored ribbon stickers on their Escalades.

All in the effort to save the log.

I smell a nobel prize.

thanks for reminding me we are all on the same side and making me laugh.

not having a dam on a river has a tendency to let mother nature to flush it self of silt and woody debris with some regularity.QUOTE]

That statement goes against ALL of the previous research done of Large wood in our area...virtually every stream and river not permanently protected in a national park or wilderness is WAY below reference large wood loading (way less wood now than historically in undammed streams). Furthermore the problem is actually worse in dammed streams because the lack of bankfull/flood flows prevents the river from recruiting new wood through natural lateral channel migration, cut and fill alluviation, avulsion and other natural geomorphic processes.

In other words, undammed streams have less wood than they used to, and dammed streams less than undammed.

I'd like to address a couple of points here. The habitat on the N. is shockingly pristine. Yes, there are dams but, otherwise you might be surprised to see how well this river is doing. The portion of this river below Yelm is stunningly beautiful and unmolested due to the fact that virtually all of the land is owned either by the military on the N. side or the Nisqually tribe on the S. side. From Yelm, downstream to Riverbend, you will not see one house, not one road, not a single clearcut or logging operation. There is a hatchery. It is run by the tribe and produces fish for their terminal gillnet fishery. The net fishery is absolutely disgusting. It is an indiscriminate form of harvest that is destroying the river. Nets are left in the river after they are supposed to be removed. Nets are lost and wash out into the south sound. Nets are abandoned and remain in the river. I floated the river late last fall and counted 37 abandoned nets or remnants of nets. Often, durring the summer, nets are strung across the entire river. Nets are strung in front of every tributary.
Another net season is beginning. Most of the tributaries already have nets in front of them. The best netting holes have been staked out already. Soon the net camps will appear with the accompanying piles of garbage, discarded clothing and beer cans. Maybe this is the year that the netters finally kill the last remaining wild fish in the river? When the last wild fish is netted out of this river, it's passing will go unnoticed. The log might still be there (I doubt it). The river will look the same. You can buy your salmon cheap from the roadside stands near the casino. The tribes and the WDFW and the Salmon Enhancement Groups and Billy Frank can all pat themselves on the back and talk about what a great job they're doing on the habitat. They can have more symposiums on the interconnectedness of all things and the groovy holistic nature of the ecosystem. We can exchange banter and engage in witty debate about the latest studies, statistics, and data. One poster will claim that I don't care about habitat, another will say that it's not wise to clear the river for the lowest common denominator of fool, yet another will suggest that I am a racist and I'm attacking the rights of the tribes. But none of it matters because the last wild fish will be dead.
It's kind of difficult to get involved in organized habitat enhancement efforts because all the involved groups seem to be ignoring the obvious. The netting has to stop or the wild fish will all die.

hey jonb, to point out the simple fact that the native americans are destroying our anadramous fish runs is not racist, only a point of fact. and guess what? when they have finished with the fishes, they have now shifted their attention to crab right here in sequim bay. drive on out and take a look at the refer trucks parked in the launch area at john wayne marina. then take a look at the people hauling thousands of pounds of crab in each and every day, 7 days a week. if these guys are native american, i am the easter bunny. this is criminal, in my estimation, and as usual, no one is paying any attention or doing a damn thing to enforce the boldt 50%, nothing, nada!!!!! i don't see WDFW or any sort of indian enforcement anywhere in sight. and believe you me, these are thousands of pounds going out of here daily.

these guys have now become this centuries buffalo hunters, kill everything that moves, thats the moto. so don't get distracted by their claims of stewardship of resources. the only thing that matters is using boldt to make fast money, first anadramous fishes and now crab.

Jon ~
I'm curious - can you tell me how many years or generations (figure 3,4, years for the wild fish?) would it take the tribal fishery to wipe out the wild stocks? It's been thirty years since the Boldt decision, so are they just getting going or what's taking them so long?

Jon ~
I'm curious - can you tell me how many years or generations (figure 3,4, years for the wild fish?) would it take the tribal fishery to wipe out the wild stocks? It's been thirty years since the Boldt decision, so are they just getting going or what's taking them so long?

Tx
Steve

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Your sarcasm is duly noted. I'm tempted to reply in kind but I'll resist the urge. I have no idea how many generations it takes for the netting to kill off the last wild fish. It does seem rather inevitable under the current system, does it not?
Perhaps you have an opinion you'd be willing to share?

Since Custer died for everyone's sins Natives are fair game to blame for the depletion of the fishery, so i'll jump in now. I personally think that they are behind the whole thing, the damming of the rivers to reduce the fish survival, the clearcutting of forests to increase sediment and raise water temperatures, the influx of toxins into the river ecosystems from mining and industry, and don't forget all of the domestic and foreign fishing vessels which pull out tons of fish from the sound and ocean each year. I think they are also behind the constant push to bring roads to all wilderness areas to get back at us for forcing them onto what was perceived to be the most useless land at the time and destroying their economies. I look about as white as they come, and if I wasn't a registered and enrolled member of a tribe I could probably bite my tongue. Instead i'd like to point out that racism always finds an excuse. That being said, I don't like gill nets much but i've never had to sell fish by the roadside to subsidize my income.

Since Custer died for everyone's sins Natives are fair game to blame for the depletion of the fishery, so i'll jump in now. I personally think that they are behind the whole thing, the damming of the rivers to reduce the fish survival, the clearcutting of forests to increase sediment and raise water temperatures, the influx of toxins into the river ecosystems from mining and industry, and don't forget all of the domestic and foreign fishing vessels which pull out tons of fish from the sound and ocean each year. I think they are also behind the constant push to bring roads to all wilderness areas to get back at us for forcing them onto what was perceived to be the most useless land at the time and destroying their economies. I look about as white as they come, and if I wasn't a registered and enrolled member of a tribe I could probably bite my tongue. Instead i'd like to point out that racism always finds an excuse. That being said, I don't like gill nets much but i've never had to sell fish by the roadside to subsidize my income.

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Thank you Noah for being brave enough to bring a bit of balance to the blame. I'll just add that I am sure that if whitey was allowed to net, they would net. Til' then, we'll just continue to destroy habitat in the most efficient ways possible in the name of capitalism.

I think that someone should organize a group of volunteers and boats for a "net cleanup float". A kind of like a stream maintenance to clear the river of any unattended nets/garbage, etc. That would be a worthwhile effort, maybe even a solution.

Subtle as a flying mallet, Noah plays the ubiquitous race card and sprints for the finish line completely oblivious of the logical hurdles ahead.

wooleybugger74, if this is "balance", I'd hate like hell to experience vertigo.

I look about as white as they come, and if I wasn't a registered and enrolled member of a tribe I could probably bite my tongue.

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I couldn't possibly care less about your ethnicity and, furthermore, I have no idea why you are jumping to conclusions about mine. Could it be possible that, perhaps, YOU are the one who is dealing in stereotypes here?

That being said, I don't like gill nets much but I've never had to sell fish by the roadside to subsidize my income.

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That's a coincidence! Neither have I. I was provided with an education by the taxpayers of Wa. and I've made a reasonable effort to put it to good use. Hold the applause! Thousands upon thousands of people do it every year. No big deal.

We know we've made mistakes with habitat, ie. dams, agriculture, industry, development, logging, etc. All Americans have benefited from these enterprises and the fish have lost.

Hatcheries have provided fish for all user groups, sport, commercial and tribal, and the fish have lost.

Harvest has benefited all user groups and the fish have lost.

It's OK to debate habitat. The debate continues. Most user groups have already ceded some ground in the debate. Hopefully it helps the fish.

It's OK to debate hatcheries. The debate is ongoing. Changes continue to be made that will hopefully help the fish.

It's OK to debate harvest as long as you don't suggest that the terminal netting fisheries be stopped. The mere suggestion that this netting be stopped is garrantied to produce accusations of racism.

When I hear people playing the race card on this issue I feel that their reason for doing so is because they are running out of valid arguments to continue this form of harvest.
Your comments have certainly strengthened that impression.

I think that someone should organize a group of volunteers and boats for a "net cleanup float". A kind of like a stream maintenance to clear the river of any unattended nets/garbage, etc. That would be a worthwhile effort, maybe even a solution.

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Yes! "Someone" should do that!
You won't catch me leading the crusade. Ever had a gun pointed at you for trying to sneak your boat under a net line? I won't touch the nets.
Hey! I have a novel idea! Why don't the people who put them there clean them out?

ahhh, whitey IS allowed to net fish commercially. they are required to use 'tangle' nets to assist in not having the fish gill themselves: have a very limited 'soak' time for each net set; and are required to have a fish 'recovery' box on board to bring all of those wild fish back to a release status.

now how many of you have seen the native americans give a damn about letting any fish go?????????

try and play the race card if you choose, but that is nothing more than sticking your head in the sand. no one is arguing about abuses, past, present and future, of the native americans in this country. what this is ALL about is having everyone involved with harvesting anadramous fishes playing by EXACTLY the same rule book, nothing more, nothing less.

"hey jonb, to point out the simple fact that the native americans are destroying our anadramous fish runs is not racist, only a point of fact. and guess what? when they have finished with the fishes, they have now shifted their attention to crab right here in sequim bay. drive on out and take a look at the refer trucks parked in the launch area at john wayne marina. then take a look at the people hauling thousands of pounds of crab in each and every day, 7 days a week. if these guys are native american, i am the easter bunny. "

My comments were meant to address those quoted above, pretty much point by point. Playing the race card? I'm just saying that there is an awful lot of blame being placed on a single group for the fisheries depletion in the above statements.