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Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn

[COLOR=#3E3E3E]The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

It's neither. It is or was, Christ Jesus' Last Passover-Suffering.

The heart of the earth is the heart of the earth. It is what is there that counts - Hades, the place of the souls of dead men. If you string these three scriptures together, which all speak of Christ's death, where He went and how long He stayed there, a grade-school student will tell that our Lord Jesus died, descended, went to Hades, which, if He "descended", was in the heart of the earth, but that God did not allow Him to stay there and raised Him after three days in Hades in the heart of the earth.

Ephesians 4:9-10; 9 "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"Matthew 12:40; 40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."Acts 2:24-27; 24 "Whom God hath raised UP, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in HADES, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Absolutely true. But words are defined by their context. A single word can have several distinct meanings.

So in this context we're talking about Christ *dying.* Instantly our thought goes to *burial.* That's what the "heart of the earth" seems to be speaking of.

Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".

Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn

Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".

Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn

Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".

Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..

The "SIGN" of Jonah is given because, as you said, Jonah did not die. NOR DOES THE SOUL OF MAN. The body dies physically, but the "death of the soul" means "lack of well-being" (Vine) - not unconsciousness. Our Lord Jesus suffered the "death of the soul" throughout His ministry as Isaiah 53:3 tells us that He was "a Man of sorrows", and from Gethsemane, were Matthew 26:38 and Mark 14:34 tell us that Jesus admitted, "... My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... .", to His last breath on the cross, our Lord suffered the "death of the soul". But He suffered the death of the Body as keenly after the beatings and crucifixion of twenty hours or so.

There is no allegorizing away these deaths. They are real and are the portion of every man, and mean exactly what they are. Our Lord died physically and was placed in a Sepulcher. He died in SOUL for three and one half years, reaching a crescendo on Mount Olives and Golgotha. After that, He descended to Hades and instituted Paradise. The very word "Paradise" PRECLUDES ANY FURTHER SUFFERING. Our Lord, the thief of the cross next to Him, David, Abraham and people like Samuel RESTED in Paradise in Hades - a real place.

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Matthew 12.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This seems to speak of the grave.

Exactly right. Jesus is drawing a comparison between Jonah's experience and his experience.

Duration:
Jonah -->> three days and three nights
Jesus -->> three days and three nights

Location:
Jonah -->> belly of a huge fish
Jesus -->> in the heart of the earth

The reader is invited to compare the belly of a huge fish with the heart of the earth and draw a conclusion from the comparison. Let's suspend for the moment the question of whether Jonah was inside a fish or a whale and simply suppose for the sake of the discussion that Jonah was inside a sea creature large enough to have swallowed Jonah whole. It is noteworthy, I think, to consider that the sea creature itself was inside the ocean, and that Jesus' intended us to draw a comparison between the ocean and the heart of the earth. Both of these things are associated with burial, as we see in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At the final judgment, the sea gives up the dead which were in it, and from this we understand that the sea is one of two places where the dead are kept, the other place is "Hades", or in Hebrew "Sheol", i.e. the grave. So, in a sense, Jonah spent three days and three nights in one of the two places where the dead are kept, i.e. in a sea creature in the sea. Jesus also spent three days and three nights in the other place where the dead are kept, i.e. in the heart of the earth.

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn

Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".

Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..

I get what you're saying, but I do think Jonah's experience was a kind of "death" experience. He sacrificed himself by having himself tossed out of the boat. He should've died.

This was a picture of Christ's self-sacrifice for our sin--not for his own, of course. And so, like Jonah, he cast himself into the "heart of the earth," or into the grave.

At the same time I wouldn't dismiss the idea of the "heart of the earth" reflecting a kind of emotional distress, an anxiety in the midst of this death experience. It certainly had to be part of it, since this was God's emotional distress over us!

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Do all of you really believe Jonah didn't die? He could have been supernaturally kept alive without oxygen for three days, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Also, to suggest Jonah did not die, is to suggest Jesus did not really die either. Some call that the swoon theory.

Jonah 2:1 From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry....
6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, Lord my God,
brought my life up from the pit.

Are the roots of the mountains in the ocean? Of course not. Jonah was in Hades. The same place Jesus went, the bottomless pit. The heart of the earth. Dead for three days and three nights, then alive again. That is the sign of Jonah!

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Originally Posted by Tony P

Do all of you really believe Jonah didn't die? He could have been supernaturally kept alive without oxygen for three days, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Also, to suggest Jonah did not die, is to suggest Jesus did not really die either. Some call that the swoon theory.

Jonah 2:1 From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry....
6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, Lord my God,
brought my life up from the pit.

Are the roots of the mountains in the ocean? Of course not. Jonah was in Hades. The same place Jesus went, the bottomless pit. The heart of the earth. Dead for three days and three nights, then alive again. That is the sign of Jonah!

I really believe Jonah didn't die. The God Who made His creature, and the Laws that govern it, is fully capable of making an exception when He wants to. Twice in the Old Testament the earth stood still on its axis. Our Lord Jesus walked on water and so did Peter (for a while). Daniel is not appetizing for caged lions, and Shadrach and his brethren were not incinerated by a super-heated fire. And finally, the diverse resurrections show a God Who possesses not only power over the Laws of His creature, but is able to restore all men from death to life.

Jonah HAD to stay alive as he is a "SIGN" of the SOUL of Jesus which might rest in Hades, but is fully conscious and intelligent, as the narrative in Luke 16 and Revelation 6:9 shows the SOULS of the dead to be.

And oh... by the way, the "roots" of the mountains are in the sea. The King James uses the word "bottoms" which is more accurate. The Hebrew word means "where it is cut off". The same word is used twice more to describe things in the Temple that had BASES.

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Originally Posted by Tony P

Do all of you really believe Jonah didn't die? He could have been supernaturally kept alive without oxygen for three days, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Also, to suggest Jonah did not die, is to suggest Jesus did not really die either. Some call that the swoon theory.

Jonah 2:1 From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry....
6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, Lord my God,
brought my life up from the pit.

Are the roots of the mountains in the ocean? Of course not. Jonah was in Hades. The same place Jesus went, the bottomless pit. The heart of the earth. Dead for three days and three nights, then alive again. That is the sign of Jonah!

Thank you T P..........................

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

Originally Posted by Walls

I really believe Jonah didn't die. The God Who made His creature, and the Laws that govern it, is fully capable of making an exception when He wants to. Twice in the Old Testament the earth stood still on its axis. Our Lord Jesus walked on water and so did Peter (for a while). Daniel is not appetizing for caged lions, and Shadrach and his brethren were not incinerated by a super-heated fire. And finally, the diverse resurrections show a God Who possesses not only power over the Laws of His creature, but is able to restore all men from death to life.

Jonah HAD to stay alive as he is a "SIGN" of the SOUL of Jesus which might rest in Hades, but is fully conscious and intelligent, as the narrative in Luke 16 and Revelation 6:9 shows the SOULS of the dead to be.

And oh... by the way, the "roots" of the mountains are in the sea. The King James uses the word "bottoms" which is more accurate. The Hebrew word means "where it is cut off". The same word is used twice more to describe things in the Temple that had BASES.

Of course God can do anything. He could have kept Jonah alive. He could keep a person alive who swallowed a nuclear bomb. Nothing is impossible for God, but that isn't the point.

If you think Jonah didn't die, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die on the cross either?

How do you deal with the fact that Jonah prayed from the belly of Sheol and was brought up from the pit? Is this prayer not the prophecy of Jesus' prayer after death?

Jonah's death and resurrection after three days and three nights is the whole point Jesus was making, I believe.