tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post3229872460015132112..comments2018-01-20T06:52:36.084-05:00Comments on edward_ winkleman: Very Disappointing DecisionsEdward_http://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-36713865011126414162007-09-29T01:37:00.000-04:002007-09-29T01:37:00.000-04:00Cedric Caspesyan said... casting a vote system whe...Cedric Caspesyan said... <I>casting a vote system where all commenters would vote for their side of the thing?</I><BR/><BR/>good idea:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://bvsmm.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">vote here</A>Joseph Giannasiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15136324111079825442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-38939425100852588752007-09-27T12:28:00.000-04:002007-09-27T12:28:00.000-04:00Sorry, I don't subscribe to this idea that you can...<I>Sorry, I don't subscribe to this idea that you can put this information out there, and we are not allowed to question it.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't subscribe to this idea that one should grant full disclosure to an anonymous nuisance.Franklinhttp://artblog.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-87825262323499806442007-09-27T12:07:00.000-04:002007-09-27T12:07:00.000-04:00I'm s-o-o-o-o not touching that one. :-)I'm s-o-o-o-o not touching that one. :-)Edward_https://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-19971330489271674402007-09-27T11:58:00.000-04:002007-09-27T11:58:00.000-04:00The very idea of Ed being eager to swallow gives m...The very idea of Ed being eager to swallow gives me shivers.Chris Rywalthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15766746064219235983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-77964619095951877572007-09-27T11:48:00.000-04:002007-09-27T11:48:00.000-04:00I don't subscribe to this idea that you can put th...<I> I don't subscribe to this idea that you can put this information out there, and we are not allowed to question it.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't subscribe to it either. Any information I've put out there that came to me from some other source I've quoted as such. My point to you (and seriously, I don't know why I bother) is you're in no position to judge what I've been "eager to swallow" (as you put it) or not, as you have no idea what I've received but decided not to share. <BR/><BR/>Again, I'll ask that you drop the subject. Or at least reveal who you are and why you're hellbent on making a major issue over this.Edward_https://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-19767869020900230342007-09-27T11:21:00.000-04:002007-09-27T11:21:00.000-04:00Can someone dare make of this a training ground fo...Can someone dare make of this a training ground for youknowwhat by simply casting a vote system where all commenters would vote for their side of the thing?<BR/><BR/>(Buchel - Mass Moca - Neutral)<BR/><BR/>Maybe that would lead to the best lesson about this?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Cedric CaspesyanCedric Caspesyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-60128535063290090892007-09-27T11:07:00.000-04:002007-09-27T11:07:00.000-04:00Chip? You were asked straight-out from whom you we...Chip? You were asked straight-out from whom you were being contacted (after alluding that you were being contacted by more than one party), and won't answer.<BR/><BR/>Zaretsky - yes<BR/>Mass Moca - ?<BR/>Skadden - ?<BR/>Buchel - ?<BR/><BR/>Maybe it is possible that you were contacted by one of them, and they requested that you not say anything about it? But then, why would they contact a blogger?<BR/><BR/>Anyways, no chip, I am just reading your views on this with a Zaretsky spin.... <BR/><BR/>Sorry, I don't subscribe to this idea that you can put this information out there, and we are not allowed to question it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-56745441936042458882007-09-27T08:03:00.000-04:002007-09-27T08:03:00.000-04:00Thanks for sharing that Anonymous.As Mr. Thompson ...Thanks for sharing that Anonymous.<BR/><BR/>As Mr. Thompson notes, given how much confusion there remains about what the ruling did actually mean and how everyone seems to be willing to interpret it to suit their own pre-trial positions, it's perhaps best to wait for Posner's written opinion at this point. <BR/><BR/>As for the chip on your shoulder about where the info here comes from, feel free to start your own blog and let us know where it is.-Edward_https://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-11576260666168422882007-09-26T19:35:00.000-04:002007-09-26T19:35:00.000-04:00Mass Moca Director Joe Thompson's e-mail sent to a...Mass Moca Director Joe Thompson's e-mail sent to and posted on Richard Lacayo's blog - <BR/><BR/>"You should know that many of the characterizations of Judge Ponsor’s rulings – especially those being bandied about on attorney Zaretsky’s blog – are, in our view, just plain wrong. Like Zaretsky, I was in the court, but I took notes. The court most certainly did not rule that VARA (the Visual Artists Rights Act) does not apply to unfinished work. Nor, I hasten to add, did we ever argue that VARA does not apply to unfinished work. (Indeed, our counsel expressly pointed out to the court at the hearing that VARA does indeed apply to unfinished work, and that we had never disputed that.) To say the least, it’s frustrating to us to see it suggested otherwise.<BR/><BR/>What we did argue is that VARA does not prohibit all display of unfinished works of visual art, simply because they are unfinished. This makes common sense: unfinished art is frequently displayed.<BR/><BR/>The judge ruled that the Copyright Act and VARA did not bar the museum from displaying the materials in our gallery in the manner we proposed, i.e., with a notice making clear that the viewer was not seeing a finished work. The judge went further and suggested that there was almost no value to this case in determining precedent in future VARA cases because the ruling depended on facts that were in the record before him regarding the specific working arrangements between MASS MoCA and the artist. (I don't want to put words in the judge's mouth here — he indicated that he intends to issue a written opinion in the next couple weeks, and you should look to that when it comes out.)<BR/><BR/>In my view, about the only lesson one could draw from the judge’s narrow and carefully articulated ruling was that if you are an artist who agrees to undertake a complex project like this, and you take advantage of considerable human and financial resources from an institution helping you realize your intentions, and then you up and abandon that project mid-stream, leaving behind materials in a public institution, then there are consequences of that act. <BR/><BR/>In other words artists do have rights, but so to do the people and institutions who support them in their work. And if both artists and museums have rights, then they also have shared responsibilities. It’s actually quite simple. We were pleased that the judge declared that decisions regarding the ultimate fate of materials abandoned in our midst were up to the curatorial discretion of the museum. Having been granted that right, we tried to exercise it with the same standard of care evidenced when we preserved those materials in our gallery pending the court’s ruling (rather than taking some sort of unilateral action to display or dispose of them), and when we shielded them from public access and view during that same period."<BR/><BR/>I'm re-posting it here because all we seem to be getting is the Zaretsky supplied info.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-57666148443665432232007-09-26T17:06:00.000-04:002007-09-26T17:06:00.000-04:00Well, I'm totally charmed: Thanks anonymous! ;-)xC...Well, I'm totally charmed: <BR/>Thanks anonymous! ;-)x<BR/><BR/><BR/>CedCedric Caspesyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-90117640307730884122007-09-25T23:45:00.000-04:002007-09-25T23:45:00.000-04:00cedric, i am glad you are back and well.cedric, i am glad you are back and well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-70964314166641375702007-09-25T22:20:00.000-04:002007-09-25T22:20:00.000-04:00It is official: Mass Moca are taking everything do...It is official: Mass Moca are taking everything down as we speak.<BR/>No one will have seen anything but the tarps, so it's more like saying no one have ever seen this work as far as I'm concerned. <BR/><BR/>But Buchel is attempting an appeal.<BR/>Oh, whatever...<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Edward:<BR/>>>>unless you're the hand that's been >>>feeding him, how does that result >>>in hostility for you personally?<BR/><BR/><BR/>I'm just hostile by nature.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Serious: I was a big fan of Buchel. Also, as mentioned, Mass Moca is sort of my favorite museum, so I took this case at heart from the very beginning. <BR/><BR/>Buchel's attitude specifically disappointed me in context of the type of works he did. Somehow the work spoke of a very different persona: socio-reactive, communal, whatever. I'm sorry to say I didn't expect all the "Précieuses Ridicules" whining from Buchel, but it's unfortunately the sort of things I hear about everyday that makes me cringe about the artworld and encourage me to avoid it.<BR/><BR/>So maybe it's not so much the artist himself than something that he represented about a lot of other artists? In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd be the first to visit a Buchel exhibit if he ever showed here again, but I would certainly be more suspicious about the socio-political aspect after he let all his crew down at Mass Moca.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>In the end that is also what hitted a big nail for me: it's the amount of people and work that had been achieved. I'm pretty sure Holzer<BR/>would drop and we wouldn't wince. The logistics can't be compared<BR/>(or we'll see, you're welcomed to impress me, Jenny).<BR/><BR/><BR/>Chers,<BR/><BR/>Cedric Caspesyan<BR/><BR/><BR/>(ps: this said Jenny is able to resume a whole Buchel show in one sentance, so it's irony that she would follow Buchel)Cedric Caspesyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-14794057908927635392007-09-25T13:29:00.000-04:002007-09-25T13:29:00.000-04:00You're the one attributing motives here, Anonymous...You're the one attributing motives here, Anonymous. Ed_'s views are his views regardless of who has contacted him and whom he sides with. I second his request that you move on.Franklinhttp://artblog.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-22144089303649939932007-09-25T13:23:00.000-04:002007-09-25T13:23:00.000-04:00OK, but unless you're the hand that's been feeding...<I>OK, but unless you're the hand that's been feeding him, how does that result in hostility for you personally?</I><BR/><BR/>I, personally, have no use for hostility at all; it's too exhausting. <BR/><BR/>However, I can certainly understand it, and have unwillingly harbored it in the past, because:<BR/><BR/>1) People tend to generalize from the specific to the whole, and any artist who behaves badly in a high-profile context is doing all of us a disservice. This is, of course, an unfair onus to place upon anyone, but the fact remains that there are a lot of nice people out there who Don't Like Artists, because of just such an encounter, or ten.<BR/><BR/>2) It is galling to see someone rewarded for behaving badly, while those who work hard, do excellent work and behave courteously and considerately are summarily ignored. It makes one Question One's Upbringing. <BR/><BR/>3) Having run a gallery myself, my hand has been bitten <I>numerous</I> times.<BR/><BR/>The fact is, egotistical, narcissistic and inconsiderate people absorb the vast majority of available time, money and attention when they get involved in any project; this is true whether the egotist is a genius or a hack, and the opportunity cost for everyone else connected is the same.<BR/><BR/>As you know, I am in no way a zero-sum economist; I do not believe that someone else's success takes away from my own. But oftentimes, in the short term, the energy drain from a stampeding narcissist can cripple everyone around them, and this to me is a major concern which is all too often brushed aside as 'sour grapes' or 'whining.'prettyladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-53309697987234731162007-09-25T12:25:00.000-04:002007-09-25T12:25:00.000-04:00move on, anonymous.move on, anonymous.Edward_https://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-21634962356496815532007-09-25T12:20:00.000-04:002007-09-25T12:20:00.000-04:00"Okay, fess up. why are you holding back?There are..."Okay, fess up. why are you holding back?<BR/><BR/>There are not enough hours in a day to take this where you'd like it to Anonymous. Nor is everything someone writes to me in private your business to know. That's all I care to share on that."<BR/><BR/>Franklin is right about one thing, you ARE attributing motives. I have no idea what you are thinking and don't care, but am curious, as you brought it up, which parties have contacted you.<BR/><BR/>Zaretsky - yes<BR/>Buchel - ?<BR/>Mass Moca - ?<BR/>Skadden - ?<BR/><BR/>Yes or no.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-33693749798080023252007-09-25T11:53:00.000-04:002007-09-25T11:53:00.000-04:00OK, but unless you're the hand that's been feeding...<I>OK, but unless you're the hand that's been feeding him, how does that result in hostility for you personally?</I><BR/><BR/>... jumping back in towards the end of a terrific discussion... I am pissed at Buchel because he screwed an institution that I, personally, care about and is the civic catalyst of the small town where I reside. $$$ and principle - that's my dog in this fight.<BR/><BR/>And cedric's long comment might be the most emblematic summary of the current situation.<BR/><BR/>BTW, Buchel's appeal has delayed any action by Mass MoCA. That's the latest I've heard through the local grapevine. I have no idea if Buchel's appeal will entitle him to an injunction or not. MoCA is officially mum.<BR/><BR/>There isn't much time to show the stuff or dispose of it before Jenny Holzer's piece comes through the doors.greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10205947584004601426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-47714921998067650962007-09-25T10:45:00.000-04:002007-09-25T10:45:00.000-04:00OK, but unless you're the hand that's been feeding...OK, but unless you're the hand that's been feeding him, how does that result in hostility for you personally?<BR/><BR/>I'm pushing at this for a reason, not just to be my usual obstinate self.Edward_https://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-14155580755259336102007-09-25T10:35:00.000-04:002007-09-25T10:35:00.000-04:00Okay, I would like extract the comment of Cedric's...Okay, I would like extract the comment of Cedric's that struck me most forcibly, out of all that...<BR/><BR/><I>Why the hostility?<BR/><BR/><B>Because you don't bite the hand that feeds you when so little hands does</B></I><BR/><BR/>Exactly.prettyladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-2373204493339567912007-09-25T09:44:00.000-04:002007-09-25T09:44:00.000-04:00Edward:>>>Do artists siding with Mass MoCA >>>feel...Edward:<BR/>>>>Do artists siding with Mass MoCA >>>feel that an unfished piece is >>>still "art" if an institution >>>>decides to call it that<BR/><BR/><BR/>Each case is different, but when you amass a thousand objects with half of them installed, it's hard to deny that the work is "in progress", which is how the Mass Moca wanted to present the work.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The original idea was "we need to open the doors, let's hope Buchel comes in and finish the work while the exhibit is on". There is nothing wrong with that, tons of artists these days will create their work over the course of exhibition time. Buchel had plenty of time, and Hauser + Zwirth could have payed the missing money instead of waving honey for Buchel to flight to London to realize what I presume was a lesser work than a 400 000 could afford.<BR/><BR/>The irony is I thought during the whole duration of this affair: "Why can't Buchel's gallerist or collectors help him find the money to finish the goddam piece?". Then Bravo: I hear about this new 80 000 (pounds) installation. What a fantastic gallerist move ! Hurrah for the protection of artistic integrity ! Those people totally deserve a spank as far as I'm concerned.<BR/><BR/>Cedric CaspesyanCedric Caspesyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-48036588961532745452007-09-25T08:02:00.000-04:002007-09-25T08:02:00.000-04:00You're very wise David. Yes, it's exactly that. Li...You're very wise David. Yes, it's exactly that. Like Oscar Wilde noted, every critique is essentially an excuse to turn the conversation to a much more interesting topic to the critic: himself.<BR/><BR/><I>By glorifying Buchel's right to artistic integrity, Edward could be defending his integrity as a gallerist towards the artists he represents and must care for.</I><BR/><BR/>I actually felt much more strongly about this issue (i.e., that an artist gets to say when it's "art") before I opened the gallery. Not that my opinion has shifted much, mind you, just that I have a greater appreciation for the demands of running a space now.<BR/><BR/>But that raises an interesting question to my mind. Do artists siding with Mass MoCA feel that an unfished piece is still "art" if an institution decides to call it that (if only by exhibiting it in their "art" museum)?<BR/><BR/><I>Okay, fess up. why are you holding back?</I><BR/><BR/>There are not enough hours in a day to take this where you'd like it to Anonymous. Nor is everything someone writes to me in private your business to know. That's all I care to share on that.<BR/><BR/><I>Like I said, unprovable</I><BR/><BR/>antecedent?<BR/><BR/><I>I've tried to use the "Hi Mom" line too, but for some reason I don't feel like I can pull it off.</I><BR/><BR/>One often simply doesn't know. Sometimes you put stuff out there and have to wonder: are people chuckling in response or rolling their eyes? In the end, it hardly matters. The medium (at least the comments end of it) is mostly about the immediate...go with your gut, I'd always advise.Edward_https://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-91565542263312979142007-09-25T02:12:00.000-04:002007-09-25T02:12:00.000-04:00Wow. From an outsider's perspective, it seems ther...Wow. From an outsider's perspective, it seems there's a whole lot of factionalism going on here. It looks like this case is just an excuse to have the latest battle in a completely different war.David Cauchihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18128116971441583803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-82593758896676222162007-09-24T23:14:00.000-04:002007-09-24T23:14:00.000-04:00Did Hauser And Wirth dropped Buchel?No. They even ...Did Hauser And Wirth dropped Buchel?<BR/><BR/>No. They even paid him a full installation while he abandoned another. <BR/><BR/>Now...That's bizarre.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Something tells me it's just a gallerist thing to defend the artist's right to the bottom of his finished product.<BR/><BR/>By glorifying Buchel's right to artistic integrity, Edward could be defending his integrity as a gallerist towards the artists he represents and must care for.<BR/><BR/>But I think that when someone commissions a piece it gives them a little rights too, whatever they are. I don't think artistic integrity is ever supreme unless when the artist pays for all his work themselves. <BR/><BR/>In cinema, authors try to self-produce to evitate these problems. You see mentions of Director's Cut VS Hollywood Cut everyday. The Mass Moca thing is simply an Hollywood Cut, nothing prevents Buchel from attempting his own Director's Cut.<BR/><BR/>With the so little impact that visual arts have on the world these days, it goes beyond me that people could imagine the artworld to not have to follow standard civilized rules happening in other fields (ie, Producer has a say). <BR/><BR/>Probably why I constantly hear of galleries being sued by Tax Departments.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>Cedric CaspesyanCedric Caspesyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-74308397288592995332007-09-24T22:04:00.000-04:002007-09-24T22:04:00.000-04:00Like I said, unprovable.(I've tried to use the "Hi...Like I said, unprovable.<BR/><BR/>(I've tried to use the "Hi Mom" line too, but for some reason I don't feel like I can pull it off.)Franklinhttp://artblog.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-35725575420144870142007-09-24T21:54:00.000-04:002007-09-24T21:54:00.000-04:00"Come now, you have absolutely no idea how much in..."Come now, you have absolutely no idea how much information the players involved in this controversy are "spooning" me behind the scenes"<BR/><BR/>okay, fess up. why are you holding back? who has contacted you, and how much? we know you have been contacted by zaretsky, both previous to and following the ruling. have you also been contacted by the artist, the museum, or skadden lawyers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com