"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

Couldn't have played this much worse. NFW should he have taken one iota of responsibility nor pretended like the gov't had a clue how to fix this. Horrible advisors. The gubmint didn't cause any explosion. They didn't gork the procedures before and after the accident. They also have no expertise to fix this n all probability compared to the drilling industry. To take any responsibility? Moronic.

If Bary did anything wrong it was his milquetoast handling of the GOP agenda for the last decade that set up the non-regulatory environment in this and other industries, and now his window of opportunity is about over.

I will also add this.

I just paid $ 2.78 for 93 (I have a turbo) . That is the lowest I can recall for the summer lead formula change over, like, ever.

If any numb nuts still believe that oil prices are set in a market based commodities system, you are the naivest mofo's on the face of the planet. If this were a pipeline in Djbouti I'd be forking out $ 4 / gallon, easy. Since they know the public / political basklash would be cataclismic, prices are artificially low.

Manipulation by oligarchy and international corporate cartel. Scares you how powerful these blokes are. Fakkin near omnipotent.

Edited to resemble English for once.

Last edited by jb on Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah it's pretty funny how the official report from the news is that the spill will have little affect on gas prices due to our domestic reserves. I guess we didn't have any reserves a few years ago when a storm cloud threated an offshore oil rig and prices went up to four bucks a gallon.

municipalmutt wrote:Yeah it's pretty funny how the official report from the news is that the spill will have little affect on gas prices due to our domestic reserves. I guess we didn't have any reserves a few years ago when a storm cloud threated an offshore oil rig and prices went up to four bucks a gallon.

Gas prices are a scam, no way around it. Right now it's dropping 10 cents a week in the middle of all this crap. I have heard it does take roughly 75-90 days for prices to hit us consumers from the time the process of refining etc begins...who knows. I fully expect $3.50 by Oct. 1.

Serious question, should BP suffer catastrophic consequences for this fiasco? Whether through civil or criminal charges, damage laws in place or from the free market forces of us consumers? Should be wiped out due to this?

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Gas prices are a scam, no way around it. Right now it's dropping 10 cents a week in the middle of all this crap. I have heard it does take roughly 75-90 days for prices to hit us consumers from the time the process of refining etc begins...who knows. I fully expect $3.50 by Oct. 1.

Serious question, should BP suffer catastrophic consequences for this fiasco? Whether through civil or criminal charges, damage laws in place or from the free market forces of us consumers? Should be wiped out due to this?

Yes BP should face charges. Criminal Negligence comes to mind (for the explosion). And just wait for those lawsuits to start coming in from people who make their livivng off the gulf. Both of these companies involved need to be held responsible for the 11 workers who were killed.

FUDU wrote:Gas prices are a scam, no way around it. Right now it's dropping 10 cents a week in the middle of all this crap. I have heard it does take roughly 75-90 days for prices to hit us consumers from the time the process of refining etc begins...who knows. I fully expect $3.50 by Oct. 1.

Serious question, should BP suffer catastrophic consequences for this fiasco? Whether through civil or criminal charges, damage laws in place or from the free market forces of us consumers? Should be wiped out due to this?

I've seen the gas jockeys changing the price signs up on the same day in the past when weather reports showed possible hurricane activity in the gulf. They have changed the price up immediately when there is a fart in the wind but take months to adjust back down to the actual market price. Why is it different now?

I don't know about your second part. Yeah they should be punished heavily, but to the point of bankruptcy? Wouldn't that stop any foreign investment here?

I heard the 75-90 day thing from a friend in the energy business muni, but I (and that friend) agree with you, when gas goes up it hits the streets in minutes, when it goes down it takes weeks/months to reach us.

IF criminal charges are applicable then they must be punished fairly. What I personally would like to see more than anything is a unprecedented boycott from consumers, but alas that is a pipe dream I am sure. I'm no environmental nut case but man this is unacceptable and BP needs to pay a heavy price somehow.

A shame really what we rally behind in today's world. I guarantee more people are writing letters to LeBron asking him to stay then there are people writing BP telling them to GFThemselves.

Just another prime example why we desperately need to get off of oil dependence.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

It would set an extraordinarily bad precedent if criminal charges are brought. What they were doing at the time was legally regulated, if the government brings charges on something that they were the final approver of...it will not end well.

"Strangers passing in the street, by chances two separate glances meet and I am you and what I see his me."

smalls1129 wrote:It would set an extraordinarily bad precedent if criminal charges are brought. What they were doing at the time was legally regulated, if the government brings charges on something that they were the final approver of...it will not end well.

Just because it's regulated doesn't mean something criminal didn't happen. They need to be held accoutable for the deaths of 11 people. Regulations are ignored and circumvented all the time.

If criminal negligence can be proved then so be it. It is not the easiest thing to do and barring a smoking gun I see civil action far more likely. I honestly don't know or remember; but did the Mining CO. get any criminal charges for the collapse earlier this year?

"Strangers passing in the street, by chances two separate glances meet and I am you and what I see his me."

smalls1129 wrote:If criminal negligence can be proved then so be it. It is not the easiest thing to do and barring a smoking gun I see civil action far more likely. I honestly don't know or remember; but did the Mining CO. get any criminal charges for the collapse earlier this year?

The inspectors are still waiting for gas and dust levels to diminsh before they can enter the mine.

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama defensively and sometimes testily insisted on Thursday that his administration, not oil giant BP, was calling the shots in responding to the worst oil spill in the nation's history.

"I take responsibility. It is my job to make sure this thing is shut down," Obama declared at a news conference in the East Room of the White House. The Gulf of Mexico oil spill dominated the hour-long session.

FUDU wrote:Gas prices are a scam, no way around it. Right now it's dropping 10 cents a week in the middle of all this crap. I have heard it does take roughly 75-90 days for prices to hit us consumers from the time the process of refining etc begins...who knows. I fully expect $3.50 by Oct. 1.

Serious question, should BP suffer catastrophic consequences for this fiasco? Whether through civil or criminal charges, damage laws in place or from the free market forces of us consumers? Should be wiped out due to this?

They should "suffer" whatever the faux market will bear and be on the hook to pay for a clean up that would make the African-American woman with the gap teeth who used to do Pine Sol commercials sign off on the job.

But no "special" punishment for political reasons. You know that'll happen though. But -- no GD corporate welfare either if they start crying poor.

What I would like to see this used for leverage politically is these two things:

One, open the books via court order on the Cheney energy hearings. We need to know if wink, wink, nudge, nudge deregulation was part of this.

Two, barry's agenda should have been comprised of five macro policy points, period: Fix health care, get serious about clean, non-Muslim based energy, get us the freak out of trumped up international issues that put us in cross hairs, re-install federal regulation subject by the executive branch that was systematically ripped apart for 8 years of pigs at the trough, and deal with budget control. If this helps him not play footsey on what he'll still control after November, and get us serious about getting off of oil, then boo yah, make that part political.

Instead, he got stuck in the mud of a bad business cycle and irresponsible banks and borrowers. That will come and go. The macro issues I listed need to be addressed, GDit.

FUDU wrote:Gas prices are a scam, no way around it. Right now it's dropping 10 cents a week in the middle of all this crap. I have heard it does take roughly 75-90 days for prices to hit us consumers from the time the process of refining etc begins...who knows. I fully expect $3.50 by Oct. 1.

Serious question, should BP suffer catastrophic consequences for this fiasco? Whether through civil or criminal charges, damage laws in place or from the free market forces of us consumers? Should be wiped out due to this?

I've seen the gas jockeys changing the price signs up on the same day in the past when weather reports showed possible hurricane activity in the gulf. They have changed the price up immediately when there is a fart in the wind but take months to adjust back down to the actual market price. Why is it different now?

I don't know about your second part. Yeah they should be punished heavily, but to the point of bankruptcy? Wouldn't that stop any foreign investment here?

Not talking about gas junkies and gouging (ironically, the only true market based aspect of any of this crap). Talking about the commodities' price of LSC when I refer to markets.

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama defensively and sometimes testily insisted on Thursday that his administration, not oil giant BP, was calling the shots in responding to the worst oil spill in the nation's history.

"I take responsibility. It is my job to make sure this thing is shut down," Obama declared at a news conference in the East Room of the White House. The Gulf of Mexico oil spill dominated the hour-long session.

jb wrote:One, open the books via court order on the Cheney energy hearings. We need to know if wink, wink, nudge, nudge deregulation was part of this.

barry's agenda should have been comprised of five macro policy points, period: Fix health care, get serious about clean, non-Muslim based energy, get us the freak out of trumped up international issues that put us in cross hairs, re-install federal regulation subject by the executive branch that was systematically ripped apart for 8 years of pigs at the trough, and deal with budget control. If this helps him not play footsey on what he'll still control after November, and get us serious about getting off of oil, then boo yah, make that part political.

Goddamn.... Goddamn indeed. This is the smartest thing said in this forum in ages.

I would love to read the transcripts from those hearings btw..... I wonder where the over/under of "go fuck yourself" used would start.

Well why does it have to be someone's fault? When the Challenger (right?) blew up was it someone's fault? This is deep water drilling. Hard stuff. Something was bound to happen at some point. Why does it have to be political or greed related?

An accident occured, now they are trying to fix it. It will be cleaned up at some point.

Maybe if we had more nuclear plants, more land drilling, more shallow water drilling we wouldn't even be out there... but that's not the point either.

Because the actions that led to the accident we probably someone's fault. Either the MMS (taking kickbacks to loosen regulations and inspections) or BP for cutting costs during the drilling, someone must swing.

Cleaned up eventually? Days, months, years? Decades? That's a long time to be without a job. What makes you think the animal population numbers will ever rebound?

I'm going to have to EW's neck of the woods to fish reds now.

I'll let you know when they arrive, this winter killed a lot of the resident fish, and migratory ones are still working up the coast.

Well why does it have to be someone's fault? When the Challenger (right?) blew up was it someone's fault? This is deep water drilling. Hard stuff. Something was bound to happen at some point. Why does it have to be political or greed related?

I made no mention of greed or politics. I think to call it "no big deal" is pure ignorance. Ask the people who lost family members if they think it's a big deal, ask the people that live down there if it's no big deal.

EDIT: I did call them greedheads, so I did mention it....

An accident occured, now they are trying to fix it. It will be cleaned up at some point.

I'll be interested to see where the investigation goes. I'm sure if they find it was due to negligence, there will be a whole legion of people dismissing it as unavoidable.

Maybe if we had more nuclear plants, more land drilling, more shallow water drilling we wouldn't even be out there... but that's not the point either.

I'm pro nuclear power, always have been. The rest of it is a band aid on a gunshot wound. It solves nothing.

Why do we have to create a villian?

We'll see where the investigation goes. A betting man would put money on there being more than one.______________________________________________________________________________________

Not really a singular person's fault, but it certainly could have and should have been prevented.

So, Ziner you are of the mind that this was something that wasn't just an accident? That someone screwed the proverbial pooch?

For sure, Willing to bet a spill at ANWR wouldnt take nearly as long to stop

And i'm willing to bet the people who endorse this would still be screaming "Drill, baby, drill!" as oil spewed out all over the tundra.

Because the actions that led to the accident we probably someone's fault. Either the MMS (taking kickbacks to loosen regulations and inspections) or BP for cutting costs during the drilling, someone must swing.

Or maybe everything was done 100% correctly, yet an accident still ocurred. Does finding a culprit make everything better?

Cleaned up eventually? Days, months, years? Decades? That's a long time to be without a job. What makes you think the animal population numbers will ever rebound?

They always do. Have you seen anything on Chernobyl? The place is crawing with fox,deer, ect...ect.

Not really a singular person's fault, but it certainly could have and should have been prevented.

So, Ziner you are of the mind that this was something that wasn't just an accident? That someone screwed the proverbial pooch?

I willing to see it play out and make up my mind, but if they were using seawater when they should have been using drilling fluid then take them to the cleaners. It will come out. I am of the mindset that businesses should be generally left to regulate themselves, because when you over-regulate you hurt the good as well. However when companies such as this make bad decisions you should be punished, and punished severely not by the government by way of fines. But they owe a lot of people a lot of money for the things they have done. A fine from the government that goes to the government kitty is not what should take place. You can bet Exxon and Shell won't be making similar mistakes if they see the hammer dropped on BP.

BP could have been regulated at every turn, but I have a hard time believing regulation would have prevented this. JMHO, the truth will come out. Can't have government regulators making or approving every decision. At some point it is just the businesses responsibility to do the right thing or be prepared to pay severely.

That is part of my problem with the bailouts of the financial services and auto companies. I understand the need, I see the macro issue, I just think that if there was more of a repercussion for their actions things would change. Businesses have make correct decisions. But if you have a safety net every time you make a mistake what stops the mistake from happening again?

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:

For sure, Willing to bet a spill at ANWR wouldnt take nearly as long to stop

And i'm willing to bet the people who endorse this would still be screaming "Drill, baby, drill!" as oil spewed out all over the tundra.

Maybe, but it wouldnt still be spewing oil all over the tundra and BP would be already starting to clean up.

In February 2009, BP filed a 52 page exploration and environmental impact plan for the Macondo well with the Minerals Management Service (MMS), an arm of the United States Department of the Interior that oversees offshore drilling. The plan stated that it was "unlikely that an accidental surface or subsurface oil spill would occur from the proposed activities".[54] In the event an accident did take place the plan stated that due to the well being 48 miles (77 km) from shore and the response capabilities that would be implemented, no significant adverse impacts would be expected.

Attention has focused on the cementing procedure and the blowout preventer, which failed to fully engage.[36] A number of significant problems have been identified with the blowout preventer: There was a leak in the hydraulic system that provides power to the shear rams. The underwater control panel had been disconnected from the bore ram, and instead connected to a test hydraulic ram. The blowout preventer schematic drawings, provided by Transocean to BP, do not correspond to the structure that is on the ocean bottom.

Of the two control pods for the deadman switch, the one that has been inspected so far had a dead battery.

According to a report by 60 Minutes, the blowout preventer was damaged in a previously unreported accident four weeks before the April 20 explosion, and BP overruled the drilling operator on key operations. BP declined to comment on the report.[127] The American Bureau of Shipping last inspected the rig's failed blowout preventer in 2005.[240] Just hours before the explosion, a BP representative overruled Transocean employees and insisted on displacing protective drilling mud with seawater.[241] One of the BP representatives on the board responsible for making the final decision, Robert Kaluza, refused to testify on the Fifth Amendment grounds that he might incriminate himself; Donald Vidrine, another BP representative, cited medical reasons for his inability to testify, as did James Mansfield, Transocean's assistant marine engineer on board.

I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime

mistero wrote:Well why does it have to be someone's fault? When the Challenger (right?) blew up was it someone's fault? This is deep water drilling. Hard stuff. Something was bound to happen at some point. Why does it have to be political or greed related?

An accident occured, now they are trying to fix it. It will be cleaned up at some point.

Maybe if we had more nuclear plants, more land drilling, more shallow water drilling we wouldn't even be out there... but that's not the point either.

Why do we have to create a villian?

Maybe if we had nukes we could have accidents that make this look like a job for a Brawney quicker picker upper becasue our regulatory environment differs from the Frogs. Just sayin'. Gotta change that culture of regulatory relationships with the energy industry before we do much of anything, and looking into "why" is always key in preventing the next.

Although I do tend to agree with you about the fallibility of man and give you a + 1 , I can't be so cavalier. Life in the Gulf may be over as we know it for hundreds of years. Too soon to tell. But I just can't be so blythe about it.

Not really a singular person's fault, but it certainly could have and should have been prevented.

So, Ziner you are of the mind that this was something that wasn't just an accident? That someone screwed the proverbial pooch?

I willing to see it play out and make up my mind, but if they were using seawater when they should have been using drilling fluid then take them to the cleaners. It will come out. I am of the mindset that businesses should be generally left to regulate themselves, because when you over-regulate you hurt the good as well. However when companies such as this make bad decisions you should be punished, and punished severely not by the government by way of fines. But they owe a lot of people a lot of money for the things they have done. A fine from the government that goes to the government kitty is not what should take place. You can bet Exxon and Shell won't be making similar mistakes if they see the hammer dropped on BP.

BP could have been regulated at every turn, but I have a hard time believing regulation would have prevented this. JMHO, the truth will come out. Can't have government regulators making or approving every decision. At some point it is just the businesses responsibility to do the right thing or be prepared to pay severely.

That is part of my problem with the bailouts of the financial services and auto companies. I understand the need, I see the macro issue, I just think that if there was more of a repercussion for their actions things would change. Businesses have make correct decisions. But if you have a safety net every time you make a mistake what stops the mistake from happening again?

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:

For sure, Willing to bet a spill at ANWR wouldnt take nearly as long to stop

And i'm willing to bet the people who endorse this would still be screaming "Drill, baby, drill!" as oil spewed out all over the tundra.

Maybe, but it wouldnt still be spewing oil all over the tundra and BP would be already starting to clean up.

Z, when buisinesses are corporate rather than individual entities, how does that happen?

jb wrote:Z, when buisinesses are corporate rather than individual entities, how does that happen?

Assuming you are talking about making right decisions not pay severely. Corporations all across America make good and ethical decisions. We only hear when they make bad and unethical decisions. Good leadership in a company allows people to make the correct decisions. How do we get there you might ask? My view is that you learn from mistakes. I venture to guess Shell and Exxon are reviewing their entire safety methods. Of course we don't always want to have something this tragic to take place in order for change to happen I am just unconvinced that if we have higher regulation we will stop all or most of the problems in business.

Banks make bad business decisions, they pay out the nose for them. Auto companies run themselves in to the ground they go out of business. Airlines can't turn a profit they are finished. I understand that it is a very worldly view of it, but businesses have to at some point see the negatives to their bad decision making otherwise they have no incentive to stop it.

Food for thought. 75 million dollar cap passed by congress after the Valdez played a role according to this guy.

In a little-noticed provision in a 1990 law passed after the Exxon Valdez spill, Congress capped a spiller’s liability over and above cleanup costs at $75 million for a rig spill. Even if the economic damages — to tourism, fishing and the like — stretch into the billions, the responsible party is on the hook for only $75 million. (In this instance, BP has agreed to waive the cap for claims it deems legitimate.) Michael Greenstone, an M.I.T. economist who runs the Hamilton Project in Washington, says the law fundamentally distorts a company’s decision making. Without the cap, executives would have to weigh the possible revenue from a well against the cost of drilling there and the risk of damage. With the cap, they can largely ignore the potential damage beyond cleanup costs. So they end up drilling wells even in places where the damage can be horrific, like close to a shoreline. To put it another way, human frailty helped BP’s executives underestimate the chance of a low-probability, high-cost event. Federal law helped them underestimate the costs.

Not really in line with the avenue that this topic is taking, but alot of talk down here is that they could employ microbes (bugs) into the wetlands that would digest alot of the oil in the marshes as an environmental clean-up project. Pretty cool concept, and has had major success in the past at different sites. Similar to what is described here...

Z buddy, not going workers of the world unite on this one. Just seems like these clowns get golden parachutes and shareholders and employees and all sorts of connected others get hosed, but those who should be accountable rarely are unless there is flat out criminal behavior. Wish it were still the robber baron era!

1. On the show with the Dike host, she was interviewing some braud and the braud read some excerpts from the Bush admin evaluation of the GOM and deep drilling such as this BP drilling. The Bush admin had basically said all the risks were very insignificant to negligible concerning possible damages to the environment and the fishing industries if an accident were ever to occur in tGOM.

2. BP supposedly is already on record as saying the cost of all this WILL be passed on to the consumer.

If 1 is true than really WTF, we are screwed b/c it is obvious the monkeys we put in charge have no business being in such a position.

As far as 2 goes, what ever happened to if you break it you buy it. IOW if the store owner knocks over a case of vodka that's on him, he takes the loss and so on and so forth, no going around the store marking up the other bottles of vodka to make up the difference.

Fuck it, I'm going electric.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:2. BP supposedly is already on record as saying the cost of all this WILL be passed on to the consumer.

If 1 is true than really WTF, we are screwed b/c it is obvious the monkeys we put in charge have no business being in such a position.

As far as 2 goes, what ever happened to if you break it you buy it. IOW if the store owner knocks over a case of vodka that's on him, he takes the loss and so on and so forth, no going around the store marking up the other bottles of vodka to make up the difference.

Fuck it, I'm going electric.

All depends how Barry and crew handle it. FTR no I have never heard it would be passed along to consumers. That would be suicide for them, gotta link?

So Harry Reid comes out and says he wants all the oil companies to pay for it because consumers wont.

These are the people in charge. Honestly. Perhaps someone should explain to Reid that if you tax every oil company they will be able to pass it along to consumers as the cost of doing business. It isn't as if they are going to take it out of their profits because they feel bad. The only way this will get paid for by oil companies and not consumers is to have BP pay for it. There has to be a way around that cap. If there isnt, make one. If you tax all the oil companies it can be passed by higher price, if you only charge BP they won't be able to raise their price to recoup their costs. <--- in theory and no collusion

mistero wrote: Or maybe everything was done 100% correctly, yet an accident still ocurred. Does finding a culprit make everything better?

Not plausible - no way things are done 100% correctly and something this catastrophic occurs. This was not one "oh shit" moment but a series of bad decisions made by several people, and maybe even more than one company. This was not force majeure - a giant octopus did not grab the rig and set it ablaze. Basic warning signs were missed, SOPs not followed, best practices ignored.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

pup wrote:Someone I work with mentioned this and I have no desire to fact check so I will throw it out to the masses and find out that way.

The total amount spilled in The Gulf so far is consumed by the United States every 7 minutes, which is why the price hasn't bounced.

We consume ~20m barrels (that's all petroleum products, so plastics too) per day, or ~100,000 every 7 minutes. Current estimates are 12,000-100,000 per day. Best estimate as of May 27 was 440-700k, apparently. And that was a week ago.

I know more about pizza than you. Much more in fact. - Cerebral_DownTime