"Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.

A Brief History of Countersliver (or "Back in the Day...")
In 1999, Chris Senhouse and his team shook up the Extended format by garnering several top 8 PTQ berths with their “House of Slivers” creation, which was basically a port of the well-known Type 2 Countersliver deck. Employing the ever-potent trio of Crystalline, Muscle and Winged Sliver as his primary win condition, Senhouse filled out the rest of the deck with counterspells, card-drawers and utility spells. The deck was well-equipped to handle the powerhouse Extended decks of the time, with Crystalline/Worship lock to frustrate Sligh, countermagic to thwart High Tide combo and countermagic + disenchants to combat Necropotence. While Senhouse's initial version ran just three colors (UWG), the deck eventually evolved (with the help of other deck innovators) into a 4-color variant with black for Hibernation Sliver, Duress and most importantly, the overpowered (and now banned) Demonic Consultation. Countersliver continued to have good success until mid-2000, at which point it fell out of favor due to shifts in the Extended metagame. Once the Revised dual lands rotated out of Extended in 2002, the Countersliver archetype rotated out with them.

Put out to pasture in the Legacy format, Countersliver languished in obscurity for several years, barely played, but not quite forgotten. Around 2006, it reemerged as "MeatHooks," a moniker derived from the pointy appearance of the sliver appendages. Though it was never considered a Tier 1 power, it managed to gain some traction in the metagame for a while. Employing Plated Sliver alongside the usual cadre of Crystalline/Muscle/Winged, the deck's primary appeal was that it was very strong against Goblins, which was considered the strongest deck in the format at the time. However, nothing lasts, and it wasn't long before Goblins began to fade from power. As Goblins receded from prominence, Countersliver began to lose relevance. At the center of this was WotC's commitment to printing increasingly powerful creatures, such as Tarmogoyf. As individual creatures became stronger, more efficient, and fully capable of winning games on their own, the hive strategy of slivers became less and less enticing. However, WotC wasn't done with slivers, and with M14 and M15 came a batch of new sliver cards for us to play with. M14 was particularly bountiful, providing highly useful new slivers in the form of Galerider, Predatory, and Syphon. Combined with the printing of Cavern of Souls and Sliver Hive to bolster a traditionally fragile manabase, there may now be enough tools to breathe life back into this dormant archetype.

Building Countersliver
Any good Countersliver deck starts with blue and white, because Crystalline Sliver. Then you add green to give the deck the muscularity that it needs. You could stop there and have a potent countersliver deck. However, many would argue that the best version of the deck is UWGB, with black being added for access to Hibernation Sliver and Syphon Sliver. Below, I have provided some sample deck lists:

Optimizing the Manabase
You should have 15-17 lands that produce or fetch color. This includes basics, duals, fetches, Caverns, and Hives. Then you can add any number of Mutavaults (highly recommended) and Wastelands (optional) that you want on top of that. Typically, the deck runs 20-21 lands, altogether.

Cavern of Souls: An absolute godsend for this deck. Makes your slivers uncounterable. Play 4 if you got em. If you don't got em, get em. They're too good.

Sliver Hive: Another boon to your manabase, in that it's a painless City of Brass for casting slivers. You will rarely have an opportunity to use the secondary ability, but that's okay.

Mutavault: A land that becomes a sliver? Yes please. Make room for 3-4.

Wasteland: Combines well with Aether Vial, denying your opponent mana while you use Vial to cheat your slivers into play. That said, Mutavaults should be preferred, and it's difficult to make room for both. Maybe a 3-2 split if you just gotta.

basic lands: Always include a basic Island. This will often be the first land you fetch in the face of Wastelands. Island + cavern/hive casts every 2cc spell in the deck. If you're playing Bant Slivers, I would also recommend including a basic Plains. Never a basic forest, though.

Crystalline Sliver: The backbone of the deck and still the best sliver ever printed. Listen to your opponent groan as Crystalline comes into play. Automatic 4-of.

Hibernation Sliver: For the 4-color variant, of course. Provides resilience to Terminus and Wrath effects. Can also serve as a poor man's Crystalline, allowing individual slivers to dodge spot removal. Unfortunately, the M10 rule changes put an end to the "damage on the stack" trickery that was arguably Hibernation Sliver's greatest quality. Still, the ability to declare a block, then bounce the sliver back to your hand before damage is assessed can be quite useful. Not only when dealing with large goyfs and the like, but also when dealing with creatures equipped with Umezawa's Jitte.

Sinew Sliver/Muscle Sliver/Predatory Sliver: Make your slivers beefy! Start with 4 Predatory, then fit in as many Sinews and Muscles as you can.

Mutavault: A perfect addition to the deck. Provides colorless mana when needed, and becomes a 2/2 sliver when activated. The fact that it's colorless can come in handy against Mother of Rune shenanigans, or if you need to block a Progenitus in a pinch.

Brainstorm, Force of Will: These are Legacy staples for good reason.

Cards Worth Considering for Maindeck
Chalice of the Void: A bit of an experiment at the moment, but Merfolk has had some success with this plan. The idea is to swap out Brainstorms for Chalices and shut off your opponent's 1cc spells.

Swords to Plowshares: Used to be an automatic 4-of, but the times have changed. More and better slivers have been printed, and it has become reasonable to play fewer Plows or forgo them altogether.

Daze: Used to be considered a very important card in the deck, largely because it helped with sticking turn 1 Aether Vial and turn 2 Crystalline. Its value has diminished with the printing of Cavern of Souls, which makes your opponent's countermagic irrelevant. Also, as Caverns, Hives, and Mutavaults have pushed islands out of the manabase, the odds of Daze being a dead card in your hand have increased. Still, it's an option.

Harmonic Sliver: A great answer for Affinity, MUD/Stax, and CB-Top decks. Especially effective when combined with Hibernation Sliver for bounce/recursion. Can be awkward when the only available target is your own Aether Vial.

Winged Sliver: Largely obsoleted by Galerider Sliver, but there's a valid argument to be made for wanting to play one as a 5th Galerider.

Syphon Sliver: Deserves very strong consideration for 4c builds. So strong that I nearly put this in the Automatic Maindeck Cards section. Giving all your slivers Lifelink will immediately change the complexion of many games. Races you were losing suddenly swing to your favor.

Dark Confidant: Might be viable with the inclusion of Syphon Sliver to offset the loss of life. However, it's probably just going to draw all that removal that would otherwise sit uselessly in your opponent's hand because of Crystalline/Hibernation.

Phantasmal Image: Best when copying a sinew/muscle/predatory sliver. It doesn't target, so you can copy any sliver, even with Crystalline in play. Can also copy your opponent's Marit Lage or other huge creature in a pinch.

Standstill: This is one of the few pure card advantage options available to this deck, which makes it attractive. However, care must be taken to only cast it in situations that are advantageous to you.

Envelop, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Stifle, Swan Song: If you’re looking to squeeze more counter-magic into the deck, you should probably be looking at these spells. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and I can’t definitively endorse one over the other, though the consensus is probably with Spell Pierce. Stifle combines well with Wasteland, if you're playing them. Envelop is great against most combo and Control decks. Spell Pierce is just generally useful, but it isn't a hard counter. Consider what kind of metagame you’re trying to combat and make your choice accordingly.

Ponder: Recent countersliver lists have gone away from this card. I think that may be a mistake, as it helps fix suboptimal draws. It helps you dig out of 1-land hands, find Crystalline early, then Syphon or Galerider.

Wasteland: Best when combined with Stifle and/or Standstill.

Duress, Thoughtseize: Reasonable choices if you’re playing 4c and looking for more proactive disruption. Thoughtseize is more playable in conjunction with Syphon Sliver.

Cards NOT Worth Considering for Maindeck
Path to Exile: Given that even Swords to Plowshares has been falling out of favor, it's hard to imagine playing this card. Perhaps as a sideboard card, to bring in against decks with no basics.

Necrotic Sliver: Paying 6 mana for a Vindicate is way too expensive.

Virulent Sliver: With 12 Muscle/Sinew Slivers available to us, you're almost always going to be able to kill your opponent with 20 damage before you kill him with 10 poison counters.

Umezawa’s Jitte: If only Crystalline Sliver gave Hexproof instead of Shroud. Ah well.

Counterbalance & Sensei’s Divining Top: At a glance, the mana-curve of Countersliver seems to work well with this strategy. The difficulty is that there simply isn't enough room to fit a decent suite of slivers alongside the CounterTop engine.

How to Sideboard
This deck is built in such a way that you rarely want to take out more than 4-5 cards, so build your sideboard appropriately. Don't put 7 cards in your sideboard for one specific matchup, unless you know exactly what to board out for them.

Slivers are how you win. Avoid taking out more than a couple of them out when sideboarding, unless you're replacing them with other creatures, i.e. swapping out Crystallines for Ethersworn Canonists against certain combo decks. Which slivers you board out depends on the matchup. Sometimes Crystalline, sometimes Galerider, maybe a Muscle; just don't go crazy.

Dazes can come out for something better, especially if you're on the draw.

It's sometimes appropriate to side Swords to Plowshares out. Should be pretty obvious when.

FAQ
Q: Should I keep this 1-land hand?
A: Maybe. Generally, you want to throw back 1-land hands, unless you have an Aether Vial. If you have a Ponder and an island or fetch, that may be an acceptable keep as well. Be warned, however, that trying to work your way out of a 1-land hand with Brainstorm is not recommended. If you miss, you lose.

Q: What about creature tutors? Like Living Wish, or Eladamri's Call?
A: It's been tried. They're too slow.

Q: Merfolk does is better.
A: That isn't a question. I can tell because your voice didn't go up at the end. But, yeah, okay, maybe. What of it?

Q: What about this really awesome sliver that costs 4 or 5 mana?
A: Gosh, that's a really neat sliver, Timmy. Unfortunately, it's too slow and difficult to get into play. Even 3cc slivers are mostly unplayable, with Harmonic and Syphon being the rare exceptions.

Q: Slivers are the coolest!
A: Again, not a question. But yes, yes they are.

Matchups
Most of the following is based on second-hand reporting right now. Results are for a Uwgb list similar to the Patraw list above. I have only tested a handful of these matchups myself. I will update as I am able.

Also, special thanks to Kicks_422, who suggested 'MeatHooks' as an alternate deck name for Countersliver.

References & Additional Reading
The Secret Life of Slivers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd114)
A Sliver Story (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/199)
Sliver Me Timbers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr114)
Sliver Anatomy (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/1224)
Prisoner of the Skep; or, How I Encountered the Slivers—and Lived to Tell the Tale! (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ur/253)
Tales from the Crypt Sliver (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/tales-crypt-sliver-2013-01-31)
Take the Sliver Quiz! (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/sliver-quiz-2015-04-29)
Sliver Pâté (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/254)
This Hive is No Mos Eisley (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/serious-fun/hive-no-mos-eisley-2014-06-24)
A Sliver of a Chance (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1300)

Happy Gilmore

04-09-2007, 10:09 AM

The obsession with calling this deck MeatHooks is disturbing. It is important to have name recognition in deck construction and by calling it MeatHooks you are going to confuse a lot of people.

Also, has it been suggested to get rid of the counterspells for the 4th portent and the third Stifle?

I notice you are running CoTV/Mage in the board, but you could just as easily run the counterbalance/Top engine board similar to what Jessie H. did with UGR thresh. Its not nearly as fragile as Mage and leaves you with the ability to keep in your Stifles and such.

BeeblesofLife

04-09-2007, 10:17 AM

Lets see...How can I ruin this thread? OH! I GOT IT!

I'll start by saying good job. It was well wrote and all the explanations were top notch. Good job to all the members of the ninjas who helped out with this deck. Personaly the only way I helped was by throwing out suggestions on how to beat it...Good job everyone and TAKE IT ALL THE WAY!

-Slay

Volt

04-09-2007, 11:31 AM

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Goaswerfraiejen

04-09-2007, 12:03 PM

A huge improvement on the original post, which has been largely unreadable for ages due to the huge number of posts. Very well organized.

And hey, I may as well chime in about the name--I dislike it (scary reminder of Francis Bacon's art), but that doesn't matter. I know it's Countersliver, and since Countersliver is the name that I'm used to since I've played it for ages, Countersliver is what it is for me. Both are in the title, so it hardly matters what you guys in particular want to call it. Meathooks is an original title, and I commend you on that. :)

As far as Top/Counterbalance goes, it's a solid idea but ultimately depends on the matchups that you anticipate bringing it in for (largely combo, I'd imagine). I'Ve been running Top in my own version of the deck for some months now (since July, more or less) and I rather enjoy the ability to Brainstorm every turn--it turns into a whole of card advantage in the long run. On the other hand, Top alone doesn't favour the early game as much as it does the mid and late-games, so you run into the problem of boarding it vs. maindecking it. If it's in the board, then you run into the problem of what to sub out for it and Counterbalance in the matchups where you need it, and what you sub out is going to alter your most common converted mana costs--subbing out StP for Counterbalance, for example, leaves you short on one-mana spells and top-heavy on two-mana spells. The one advantage is that once Top is out, nothing at one-mana gets by you, such that subbing, say, StP for Top is quite feasible. I think that for Counterbalance, though, you're looking to replace a 2cc spell, which is harder to do--Winged Sliver, Daze, or Counterspell are pretty much the only feasible substitutions, and of those, you probably just want to take out 2 Counterspell and 1 Winged Sliver so as not to adversely affect yourself too much (but hey, what do I know--this is just off the cuff guesswork, I haven't tested a Counterbalance build either). I suppose that the other option is to maindeck both Counterbalance and Top, but I wonder if that's a good move--seems to split the strategy a little too much for game one.

Anyhow, enough theoretical musings on my part--I just want to say that I think that the inclusion of Counterbalance will largely depend upon sideboarding considerations.

Oh, and great job on the new post. Much easier on the old brain. :)

C.P.

04-09-2007, 12:11 PM

Nice Primer. I was trying to build the deck for a while, and this is a great help. Just wanted to ask though, How much do you like portent? why is is not 4 of as serum visions used to be?

Pinder

04-09-2007, 12:43 PM

For the record, if you don't like the name 'MeatHooks', call it Countersliver. I assure you no one will mind.

As for Portent over SV, we did a lot of discussing before we made the switch. We ultimately went with Portent because it's a little more versatile and gives you better card selection. With Serum Visions, it's a blind draw, and then you look at the top 2. With Portent, you get to see all three cards first and make a choice accordingly. Sure, you don't get to draw the card right away, but most of the time the spell we want is a reactive spell anyway, and it's okay to draw it during your opponent's turn. It also adds a ton of versatility in that you can target your opponent with it. This is actually pretty relevant. I've won games by Portenting relevant threats and answers off the top of my opponent's library to buy me an extra turn to seal the win. Also, Portent+Meddling Mage is sexy. All in all, Portent lets you choose more, which is a good thing in this deck.

Happy Gilmore

04-09-2007, 01:40 PM

I realize there are people who don't care for the deck name 'MeatHooks.' Not to sound like an Internet "tough guy," but those people are just going to have to get over it. Besides, I included 'CounterSliver' in the thread title, too. Also, I have observed that the name MeatHooks does seem to be catching on, slowly but surely.

The Counterbalance/Top engine has been lightly discussed, and is something that deserves testing. One thing that concerns me is that because our deck is much heavier on 2cc spells than 1cc spells, and runs fewer cantrips than UGr Thresh, a Counterbalance by itself will probably be a lot less useful to us. We would almost need to have both pieces in play for it to be useful. Again, with fewer cantrips than UGR Thresh, it might be harder for us to find both pieces in a timely manner. Still, it's an idea that deserves testing.

Regarding our ratio of Counterspells/Portents/Stifles... This is going to ramble a bit, but bear with me. As mentioned in the primer, the Portents were originally Serum Visions, which we were running 4 of for quite a while. We were also running 3 Counterspells for quite a while. Eventually, we came to realize that the 2 weakest cards in the deck were SV #4 and Counterspell #3. After some discussion of what to replace them with (Stifle, Pithing Needle, and EE being the primary candidates), we decided to go with Stifles because a) they're blue, and b) they help against Goblins and TES/Iggy and other randomness. At some point soon after that, John (xsockmonkeyx) suggested replacing the SVs with Portents. After a bit of testing, we all agreed that was an improvement. So, after all that, we ended up with 2x Counterspell, 2x Stifle, and 3x Portent. The 7-cantrip package seems to work quite well, and I don't think a 4th Portent is warranted. I'm pretty sure the 2 counterspells deserve their slots as well, as a bit of extra late-game protection is sometimes needed. Also, it's a bit tougher to beat Solidarity and other combo in game 1 with only Dazes and Forces. The 2 Stifles may seem kind of random if you look at them in a vacuum, but I just kind of lump them in with all the other counterspells in the deck.

The most important casting costs against Storm based combo (especially TES) are zero and two, as long as you can keep a land in the top three it should be very easy to set up a two cc spell in addition to that.

The problem I see with Counterspell is the need to resolve multiple 2cc creatures, putting a major strain on your mana base. I have no idea how to fix this but I feel it is certainly worth mentioning for deck discussion and future development. Also, has it been confirmed that 19 creatures is the correct #? It would be real nice to free up some of those slots for various answers and metagame foils.

kicks_422

04-09-2007, 08:29 PM

Nice job on the new primer. :tongue:

I don't think the Counterbalance/Top engine is a good one to fit into the SB for this deck mainly because we run far less draw than Thresh does, so there's a low chance of finding those pieces. I know Counterbalance is a back-breaking card, but it just doesn't fit the deck's structure.

And hey, I may as well chime in about the name--I dislike it (scary reminder of Francis Bacon's art)

I think that's a good thing, actually...

Serum Visions has also been not performing as well as I hoped it would for me, and I've tried replacing it with Sleight of Hand or Portent. I like how you can get the card right away with Sleight of Hand (like a Sinew/Muscle for enough power to swing, or a Winged to fly over), but I agree with the versatility of Portent, along with a deeper dig. Have you guys tested Sleight of Hand as well?

And I've found it very stable, oftentimes ending the game with my lands all basic (which looks really nice, considering it's a 3color deck, and my basics are Unhinged foil... :tongue:). Are the 4-ofs for each dual really needed?

I'm going to tweak my build into what you guys have posted above and test it a bit, though I can envision myself going -1 Daze, +1 Counterspell.

Pinder

04-09-2007, 09:27 PM

Serum Visions has also been not performing as well as I hoped it would for me, and I've tried replacing it with Sleight of Hand or Portent. I like how you can get the card right away with Sleight of Hand (like a Sinew/Muscle for enough power to swing, or a Winged to fly over), but I agree with the versatility of Portent, along with a deeper dig. Have you guys tested Sleight of Hand as well?

I tested Slieght of Hand for a time, but I found that it wasn't quite as good as Portent (or even SV, really).

And I've found it very stable, oftentimes ending the game with my lands all basic (which looks really nice, considering it's a 3color deck, and my basics are Unhinged foil... :tongue:). Are the 4-ofs for each dual really needed?

I'm going to tweak my build into what you guys have posted above and test it a bit, though I can envision myself going -1 Daze, +1 Counterspell.

Since the printing of Sinew Sliver added so much redundancy, the deck relies even less on green than it used to. The basic forest isn't really neccessary, IMO, but you can run it if you want.

The Counterbalance/Top idea has been brought up before, and although I'm not sure if it will fit in the deck well, I'm at least willing to try. I think -2 Stifle, -2 Counterspell,-3 Portent, +3 Counterbalance, +4 SDT to start. I'm a little wary of replacing Portent with something that doesn't picth to Force, but it might be worth it. We'll see.

kicks_422

04-09-2007, 10:17 PM

It just bothers me that in the match-ups that you want to bring in Harmonics, most of them run Wastelands. I'll try dropping the basic Forest and see how it goes.

I tried the Counterbalance-Top engine in MeatHooks the moment I saw how it was incorporated in Red Thresh. It didn't work out too well for me, mostly because of less library manipulation which makes Counterbalance too random without Top.

Elmi

04-10-2007, 03:51 PM

Great primer!

Have you thought about Victual Sliver as a metagame choice against Burn/Sligh decks? The cost and the need to sac a Sliver might be prohibitive, but those decks run out of fuel very fast.

Volt

04-10-2007, 04:10 PM

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Maverick676

04-10-2007, 05:31 PM

If you are having problems with Burn decks I heartily endorse essence sliver as a two of in the board. If you drop it with as little as a crystaline and another sliver out you will win the game.

TheDrunkDwarf

04-12-2007, 11:26 AM

The most recent preview card, Glittering Wish seems like it might find a place in the deck. While its not an instant, it allows access to cards (more specifically slivers) without having to MD them. Eledamri's call is nice, but you could maindeck a few wishes, SB a crystaline, harmonic and meddling mages and have easy access to them any matchup. In addition, this would virtually up your crystalline count to 6-7, depending on the # of wishes. THoughts?

C.P.

04-12-2007, 12:04 PM

The most recent preview card, Glittering Wish seems like it might find a place in the deck. While its not an instant, it allows access to cards (more specifically slivers) without having to MD them. Eledamri's call is nice, but you could maindeck a few wishes, SB a crystaline, harmonic and meddling mages and have easy access to them any matchup. In addition, this would virtually up your crystalline count to 6-7, depending on the # of wishes. THoughts?

I'm not an expert on the deck, but paying GWWU for your first crystaline does not sound like a good idea. I'd rather run some cantrips.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-12-2007, 12:08 PM

It would seem that Absorb 1 is indeed preceeded by "all Slivers gain". Accordingly, it looks like it probably stacks, which is insane--but I guess we'll have to wait for the FS FAQ to be sure. Unfortunately, it's attached to a fairly expensive (4W) Sliver. While it would largely make our armies indestructible combat-wise, by the time we get it into play, I think that it will be just a win-more card. It's unfortunate, but I don't think that it will work very well.

The new Wish is definitely interesting. What would a Sliver wishboard look like, though? Would it have to be a composite wishboard (with some tutorable Slivers and regular hosers), or a pure wishboard? I'm inclined to go with the former, but what slivers would be in the wishboard? Harmonic, certainly--you could even probably eliminate them from the maindeck. Other than that, though (and Victual Sliver if it's necessary), the other golden slivers that we might want or need pretty much all need red or black mana (or a Vial) to cast (Necrotic, Acidic, Firewake, and Hibernation Slivers are the best contendors, and even then...). On the other hand, MD access to Meddling Mage could prove quite significant--in fact, that's probably the best reason to run the Wish. Unfortunately, I think that that's it downfall: Living Wish has already been tested and discarded, and in this case Glittering Wish would be strictly worse (since we'd only be using it to grab creatures, and Living Wish does that with a broader scope of creatures and for a less restrictive mana cost).

Volt

04-12-2007, 12:10 PM

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Pinder

04-12-2007, 12:54 PM

Living Wish can fetch Crystalline/Harmonic/Mage with a less complicated casting cost, and we don't even run that (see primer for explanation).

QFT. Living Wish fetches everything we would ever want out of our sideboard without costing 2 colors, and it's still not good enough. If Glittering Wishes was an instant, it might warrant further consideration, but if the only multicolor cards we'd be searching for are creatures anyway, Living Wish is just better because it's easier to cast.

And how about that five mana for Lymph Sliver? And here I thought Wizards liked us.

kicks_422

04-18-2007, 08:15 AM

Wizards likes Slivers, not us.

Living Wish is far greater than Glimmering Wish in a Sliver deck, though I think it would work only in an aggro Survival build.

EDIT: I decided to drop Stifles entirely from the deck, since the match-ups that we need it are already good ones, and for those where we really need it, Pithing Needle does the job better. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

xsockmonkeyx

04-18-2007, 09:49 AM

EDIT: I decided to drop Stifles entirely from the deck, since the match-ups that we need it are already good ones, and for those where we really need it, Pithing Needle does the job better. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Then you would have my build. -2 Stifle +1 CS +1 fetch. I think Volt was messing around with Needle but I can remember his results. The 2 Stifles are decent in a meta that warrants them; if you expect heavy Gobs and Combo then the Stifles are pretty keen.

Volt

04-18-2007, 12:02 PM

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zetrix

04-18-2007, 06:08 PM

if i had needles I would probably run them over the stifles, but for now stifling a fetch turn 1/2 is godlike, haha.

kicks_422

04-18-2007, 06:56 PM

I just think that even without Stifles, we can already beat combo. In all my games against combo, after sideboarding, I've never had to use Stifle ever. It was just always sitting in my hand staring at the Mages in play or was just fodder for FoW... And the Goblins match-up is ridiculously good even without Stifles.

I've found out how much Pithing Needles are needed after going against BGR Rock, Affinity, and Survival in successive games. Against BGR Rock, I boarded in Mage (for Deed to protect my creatures, Pyroclasm and FTK to protect the Mage) and Stifles for the Deed, where a single Needle would have given me the game. Against Affinity, I boarded in Mages and Harmonics, but it would have been better if I boarded in Needles instead of the Mages. Against Survival, you know how that would work.

I've found stifling fetchlands a weak play. There are times when they keep a one land hand and hope to Brainstorm into another one, where a Stifle on their fetchland is GG... But without a way to support the land denial, it's just a waste.

Pinder

04-18-2007, 08:08 PM

Yeah, it seems we've all pretty come to the concensus that Stifles are no longer needed in the maindeck. They were good when they wre needed, but post-PC, they aren't really necessary anymore (it's just sad that we didn't get anything good out of FS :frown: ) I could definitely see CS #3, and I suppose you could go for the 19th land as well. I think the deck runs fine on 18, but you could go either way. If you don't bump up the land count, you could always go for Porten #4 as well.

Also, I did a tad bit of testing with -2 Stifle, -2 CS, -3 Portent, +4 Counterbalance, +3 SDT to see how that would work (hey, it worked for Thresh, right?), and overall I found that it was just a bit too random for my tastes. Without Counterbalance and Top in play, it just wasn't an effective way to consistently counter spells, because we don't have that many cantrips. And our curve is really low, so we can't really counter much that isn't in the 1-2 range. With the CB/Top setup above, we have 15 1cc and 23 2cc, and 4 5cc and that's about it. This isn't neccesarily a bad thing, as there are a lot of 2 drops you'd want to counter, but it's there.

SDT all by itself wasn't that bad though. Of course, it gives Thresh's maindeck Needles a target.

Has anyone else done any testing with the Counterbalance/Top engine? What were your results?

edit:

we could probably run Didgeridoos in those slots and still beat Goblins 2 out of 3.

What do you mean still? I hadn't considered Didgeridoos for the MD, but if there was some way to combine the savage syngery of Slivers with Minotaur Advantage...maybe a list with Hivestone and some Minotaurs + Didgeridoo? Holy shit, I think we've stumbled onto something. Imagine an Anaba Grunt Sliver....that's it, I'm drumming up a list tonight.

Volt

04-18-2007, 08:29 PM

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xsockmonkeyx

04-19-2007, 10:15 AM

if i had needles I would probably run them over the stifles, but for now stifling a fetch turn 1/2 is godlike, haha.

More often than not its the winning play against Solidarity.

Again, those 2 slots are definately the weakest in the deck and can pretty much be anything you want them to be. Needles, Stifles, 19th land, Portent #4, Winged #4, another sliver (Hanni splashes Black for 2x Hibernation Sliver), EE. Theres tons of stuff that fit in those slots.

coolmagics

04-20-2007, 02:20 AM

What's the reason that decklist doesn't run 4x Windswept Heath and at least one Savannah and forest? The color mana commitments are almost the same, (although draw does fall under blue), but I think 4x Heath plus the Savannah and forest would give you more consistent mana and more protection from Wasteland.

Pinder

04-20-2007, 02:25 AM

What's the reason that decklist doesn't run 4x Windswept Heath and at least one Savannah and forest? The color mana commitments are almost the same, (although draw does fall under blue), but I think 4x Heath plus the Savannah and forest would give you more consistent mana and more protection from Wasteland.

If you're fetching basics, you want to ensure that you can fetch an Island. Any of the fetchlands in the deck can fetch any of the dual lands, but as blue is the deck's main color, you want to make sure that a majority of your fetchlands can fetch basic Islands, followed by basic Plains (hence, 6 fetches that can fetch Islands, 5 that can fetch Plains). The Windswept Heath was a holdover from when we needed to be able to fecth the basic Forest we used to run, but it could easily be the 3rd Delta.

Volt

04-20-2007, 02:44 AM

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Zuriya

04-20-2007, 10:52 AM

Do you think that it is a problem that when you draw several Winged Slivers or Cryistalline Slivers they are essentially dead cards ? How about adding more Slivers that don't have this problem like Ward Sliver or Essence Sliver ?
Or some more one-ofs like Quick Sliver or Root Sliver ?

KillemallCFH

04-20-2007, 11:02 AM

Do you think that it is a problem that when you draw several Winged Slivers or Cryistalline Slivers they are essentially dead cards ? How about adding more Slivers that don't have this problem like Ward Sliver or Essence Sliver ?
Or some more one-ofs like Quick Sliver or Root Sliver ?The thing is, they are not dead. With 1 muscle/sinew out, Crystalline sliver becomes a 3/3 for :w::u:, which isn't bad at all. Winged Sliver, while less impressive P/T-wise, still gives you extra beats, and since it is only a 3-of, it is less likely that you will see multiples. Plus, they're both blue, so they can be pitched to FoW.

For some reason, I find annoying that untargetability got a keyword, while the Troll Ascetic ability didn't.

Pinder

04-21-2007, 11:28 PM

For some reason, I find annoying that untargetability got a keyword, while the Troll Ascetic ability didn't.

I just find it annoying that it gots uch a lame keyword. Couldn't they have just made it like indestructable and template it like 'X is untargetable?' I don't see why they have use a dumb word.

etrigan

04-21-2007, 11:43 PM

Also, I did a tad bit of testing with -2 Stifle, -2 CS, -3 Portent, +4 Counterbalance, +3 SDT to see how that would work (hey, it worked for Thresh, right?), and overall I found that it was just a bit too random for my tastes. Without Counterbalance and Top in play, it just wasn't an effective way to consistently counter spells, because we don't have that many cantrips. And our curve is really low, so we can't really counter much that isn't in the 1-2 range. With the CB/Top setup above, we have 15 1cc and 23 2cc, and 4 5cc and that's about it. This isn't neccesarily a bad thing, as there are a lot of 2 drops you'd want to counter, but it's there.

SDT all by itself wasn't that bad though. Of course, it gives Thresh's maindeck Needles a target.

I haven't seen many Threshold decks with both Counterbalance and SDT maindecked. I'd follow their lead, maindeck SDT, SB Counterbalance, and just bring it in vs other decks with similar curves. Even without SDT, Counterbalance will just randomly counters stuff against the right decks. It's strong against combo too, not just Fish mirrors.

burkey_boy

04-22-2007, 02:52 AM

do you think their reason for not releasing the crystaline sliver FNM was because it is coming up and they wanted to have it with its new text adn frame? and because slivers are big in TSB...

Maverick676

04-22-2007, 03:28 AM

No that is not the case, the reason crystalline FNM was never released is because some of them were stolen before their release date. You can read more here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/0406 (its the April 25 question).

Hummingbird TG

04-22-2007, 09:32 AM

Also because it might mess with the Secondary Market value of those Slivers in the market?

noobagain

04-23-2007, 04:52 PM

Why is worldly tutor not run in this deck. I know it doesn't fit the mostly blue deck, but it gets you any of the slivers you really need.

Volt

04-23-2007, 05:04 PM

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zetrix

04-23-2007, 07:03 PM

Are there any new decklists that arent the one on the main page that are currently the "optimal" build I guess you would call it, or is the build on the main page still pretty much the standard.

kicks_422

04-23-2007, 07:19 PM

I guess you could say that the list on the front page is the basic skeleton, but I believe most have tweaked their lists a bit according to their own personal taste or metagame.

For example, I run a basic Forest and -1 Daze for +1 Counterspell in the MD (personal tastes), and -1 Crypt and -2 Stifle in the SB for 3 Essence Sliver (metagame decision).

I think Volt has mentioned that he runs a 19th land, I'm not sure if he still does.

Volt

04-23-2007, 07:27 PM

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xsockmonkeyx

04-23-2007, 08:12 PM

Why is worldly tutor not run in this deck. I know it doesn't fit the mostly blue deck, but it gets you any of the slivers you really need.

Worldly tutor isnt run because it doesnt replace itself with a card. Also it costs G which makes it a bad first turn play as you have to fetch out a Tropical Island instead of a basic one. Predict also kinda sucks for you.

If you are looking for a tutor for this deck the best one is Eledamri's Call because it represents card parity and you dont have switch up the deck list like you do with Living Wish.

Are there any new decklists that arent the one on the main page that are currently the "optimal" build I guess you would call it, or is the build on the main page still pretty much the standard.

The list is not set in stone but there are a lot of slots which are pretty much nailed down. You should be running :

actually, if you just want a tutor for slivers, I think Homing Sliver would be the way to go. It's instant speed and uncounterable and colorless. You couldn't ever play him, but if he's just there as a tutor, I don't see a problem.

Maverick676

04-23-2007, 10:41 PM

His ability is much too expensive. Plus he is way too narrow, cantrips are a much better option. We tried tutors like eladmri's call and living wish in this deck and found that cantrips perform much better because they find both slivers and counterspells/land.

Pinder

04-23-2007, 11:45 PM

The list is not set in stone but there are a lot of slots which are pretty much nailed down. You should be running :

Um, I'm pretty sure that around 3+ Serum Visions/Portent need to be on that list. This deck can't operate with only 4 cantrips.

As far as I'm concerned, the only really malleable slots are the two currently occupied by Stifle, although some tweaking could be done to the manabase/counterspell/daze count to suit your tastes.

xsockmonkeyx

04-26-2007, 05:45 AM

Um, I'm pretty sure that around 3+ Serum Visions/Portent need to be on that list. This deck can't operate with only 4 cantrips.

True. But every time we try to run a draw engine or stuff like counterbalance + top those are the first things to go. They are still up for debate.

As far as I'm concerned, the only really malleable slots are the two currently occupied by Stifle, although some tweaking could be done to the manabase/counterspell/daze count to suit your tastes.

Yes but the neat thing is those 2 cards can be pretty much anything. There are a number of cards that fit into those slots perfectly fine. Needle, Talon Sliver, SDT, Stifle, Counterspell #3-4, cantrip #8-9, Harmonic Sliver, Meddling Mage, Lands, counterbalance, Eledamri's Call, Spell Snare, etc. You can also consider adding a black splash and play 2 Hibernation like Hanni's deck.

kicks_422

04-26-2007, 06:01 AM

Well, considering the stuff that you've mentioned that replace cantrips provide draw as well, I think the 7-8 slots should be loosely considered as draw spells, be it cantrips or SDT's.

I really can't make counterbalance work in this deck, mostly because the curve is so focused on 1 and 2, and the decks that are pawned by a Counterbalance on 1 or 2 are generally good match-ups already anyway.

Pinder

04-26-2007, 03:26 PM

Well, considering the stuff that you've mentioned that replace cantrips provide draw as well, I think the 7-8 slots should be loosely considered as draw spells, be it cantrips or SDT's.

I really can't make counterbalance work in this deck, mostly because the curve is so focused on 1 and 2, and the decks that are pawned by a Counterbalance on 1 or 2 are generally good match-ups already anyway.

This is true, but I sort of like SDT in those slots as well. Once you have one down, it's rather nice to be able to rearrange the top 3 whenever you feel like. Especially if you have some fetches or other shuffle effects (like Portent).

I've also thrown Talon back in as a 2 of maindeck to test. It pushes our Goblins matchup into near autowin status, and isn't too shabby when going up against Thresh's fat early either. I almost want it as a 3 of so I can see it more reliably.

With either SDT or Talon in those 2 slots though, it always seemed like I wanted more.

Aggro_zombies

04-26-2007, 07:16 PM

I've also thrown Talon back in as a 2 of maindeck to test. It pushes our Goblins matchup into near autowin status, and isn't too shabby when going up against Thresh's fat early either. I almost want it as a 3 of so I can see it more reliably.
QFT, but I personally think that Winged is better if I had to choose one or the other to have three of in the main. Winged can flat-out win, whereas Talon Sliver just wins at combat. I'd definitely try to include the third Talon in the sideboard, though, since blocking matters more against Goblins.

zetrix

04-27-2007, 01:38 AM

can someone tell me how I should be playing against the "rock" matchup, I seem to get stomped by it a lot... and I mean a lot... even after sideboard and stuff..

I use the normal list on the main page (with 2x stifle MD)

Pinder

04-27-2007, 01:44 AM

Umm....pray? The Rock, Truffle Shuffle, etc aren't exactly great matchups for us. If they're using Deed (which they should be), use Stifle against it game 1 and board in Needles for it in game 2. They're targeted removal is next to nil once you get Crystalline, but you have to make sure that you keep Damnation, WoG, and other board sweep from resolving as much as possible. Of course, this isn't always possible, so try not to overextend. Play only as many creatures as you need to push through damage and block effectively. Sometimes you have to overextend, though, and there's no way around it. Either way, it's a hard fought match.

BeeblesofLife

04-27-2007, 02:01 AM

Stifle should be an mvp, along with swords in the rock MU.
Wouldn't it be possible to bum rush them then hold stifle and swords for later on in the game when their threats come online?
I dunno, I havent studied the rock MU.

Volt

04-27-2007, 02:08 AM

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kicks_422

04-27-2007, 02:20 AM

With 4 Mages and 3 Needles coming in after SB, it becomes easier. Still tough, but manageable.

I take out a combination of Daze, Plated, and StP for them. Mage naming removal/sweepers, Needle on Deed. The only threat that regular Rock runs that's a real problem is Troll Ascetic, so taking out 1 or 2 StP's should be alright.

Volt

05-02-2007, 06:10 PM

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kicks_422

05-03-2007, 12:23 AM

I've been playing against nothing but Hulk Flash on MWS with MeatHooks, and I don't think such a drastic change such as that should be made for it.

At the GP, with FS not yet legal and only 4 FoW on their part for protection, MeatHooks will trump Hulk Flash any day.

Volt

05-03-2007, 12:57 AM

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kicks_422

05-03-2007, 02:22 AM

The bad thing about that Flash deck is that it has so many ways of being built that there's really no way of preparing for it. Keeping the deck as it is might be the best way to go, and relying on countermagic with Mages out of the SB as we always do for combo is still pretty solid, IMHO.

Volt

05-03-2007, 02:42 AM

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kicks_422

05-03-2007, 03:00 AM

True. I'm pretty wary about dropping MD Counterspells though, as well as SB Essence Slivers (Burn and Sligh will be there at the GP, you can count on that). Are the Spell Snares really needed? Do you board them in against anything that's not Hulk Flash? I think 3 Stifles MD are enough, too.

Volt

05-03-2007, 03:11 AM

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Kokusho17

05-07-2007, 10:32 PM

Wow this thread has died down a bit

kicks_422

05-07-2007, 10:45 PM

They're all obsessed with Hulk Flash right now. :tongue:

I'm still playtesting MeatHooks against every deck imaginable, and so far, I'm still pleased with the results I'm getting, so nothing much to discuss. :tongue:

skrillz

05-08-2007, 02:40 AM

Yo I have been testing this deck since its first appearance well first I saw anyways. Have you guys seen the last decklist from magic league that Quantemdemon played? I beleive that Volt made some mention of it I was just wanting to get your opinions especially with the rise of hulk flash and possibly iggypop. Adding black for the SB leyline of the voids might not be that bad not to mention have hibernation sliver main against landstill and the rock(which happen to be a terrible matchups). Possibly even other black cards out of the board.

kicks_422

05-08-2007, 08:35 AM

You don't need black for SB Leyline of the Voids. You won't get to Turn 4 to hardcast it anyway if you're up against Flash.

I don't like quantomdemon's build because it lacks removal MD, and 3 Hibernation Slivers aren't really enough to make the Landstill and Rock MU's a lot better (it actually is negated a lot by your increase of chance of losing to a well-timed Wasteland). Relying a lot on Vial to drop your threats isn't really a good thing when there's no Sliver Lackey, or Sliver Piledriver, or Sliver Ringleader.

(off topic: can you belive they're reprinting Goblin Piledriver in 10E? it would just mean that Goblin decks would be easier to build now... Good for us... :tongue:)

Quantumdemon also says that it has a better mirror match-up. Well, all I can say about that is Ensnare in the SB is cool.

I've never had an alarming problem against Landstill (in all forms) as well as Rock. It's tough, yes - but winnable, especially ater boarding.

Volt

05-10-2007, 12:52 PM

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Nydaeli

05-10-2007, 02:38 PM

Ironically, Predict might want to be considered for the deck again. I know it's been dismissed in the past, but it can be used to interfere with Mystical Tutors and the like.

Goaswerfraiejen

05-10-2007, 03:13 PM

Ironically, Predict might want to be considered for the deck again. I know it's been dismissed in the past, but it can be used to interfere with Mystical Tutors and the like.

Portent does more to screw up Mystical Tutor than Predict does. It draws you the same card, but it also shuffles away what Tutor put to the top.

Volt

05-10-2007, 03:20 PM

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Goaswerfraiejen

05-10-2007, 04:36 PM

Except Portent's sorcery speed sometimes gets in the way. Good HF players will tutor at the end of your turn. Also, Predict at least puts the tutored card into the graveyard instead of shuffling it back in.

I like the idea behind running Predict, but it's too inconsistent and situational in this deck. A better idea is Screeching Sliver (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/75.html). It could possibly replace Plated Sliver in the sideboard.

Ah yes, a sorcery. Missed that. :(

BreathWeapon

05-10-2007, 05:09 PM

Is Green the right color in the GPFlash environment? Black has Hibernation Sliver, Engineered Plague, Duress, Extirpate and Dark Confidant at its disposal, and all of that seems to be a little worse against Goblins, a little better against Landstill and awesome against Flash.

Volt

05-10-2007, 05:36 PM

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Maverick676

05-10-2007, 05:44 PM

Green gives harmonic sliver, and muscles 5-8. Harmonic sliver is a house in matchups such as stax, affinity, enchantress ect. Muscles 5-8 give us the edge in just about every matchup that involves creatures, as well as a faster clock against combo and control. I think green is the right call for GP columbus, as it gives the best chance against goblins, while not being horrible against hulk flash. Although since gobs is expected to make less of a showing, 4 color slivers might be a consideration as well. Maindeck duress, extirpate, and shrieking sliver could be amazing, while still having access to 8 muscles and harmonic sliver.

Pinder

05-10-2007, 06:19 PM

Green gives harmonic sliver, and muscles 5-8. Harmonic sliver is a house in matchups such as stax, affinity, enchantress ect. Muscles 5-8 give us the edge in just about every matchup that involves creatures, as well as a faster clock against combo and control. I think green is the right call for GP columbus, as it gives the best chance against goblins, while not being horrible against hulk flash. Although since gobs is expected to make less of a showing, 4 color slivers might be a consideration as well. Maindeck duress, extirpate, and shrieking sliver could be amazing, while still having access to 8 muscles and harmonic sliver.

Harmonic is nice, but can be replaced not too painfully by Necrotic in the UWb build, if you choose to go that way. The real kicker for still running green is having Muscle Sliver. Having 8 2/2 crusades is what really gives this deck it's clock. Might we (*gasp*) have to move into 4 colors?

Probably not, but hey, it could happen.

Without 8 Muscle, it's a whole lot slower. That might not be such a bad thing if we move to a slower, more controlling version of the deck, but it remains to be seen if that's any better. Plus, you can probably skate by with 12-14 creatures in a more controlling Fish build, but with Slivers I would be wary of dropping anywhere below 16 (preferably 18) guys. This leaves less room for strict control.

Also, I did some testing with Screeching, and found out that usually in any event where I could be milling cards, I usually just wanted to attack. Unfortunately, the vigilance sliver is way to slow. Screeching is still useful however, and it might just take an adjustment of the playstyle of the deck. It's certainly good with Extirpate, at any rate. And it can be sort of techy to mill yourself to avoid bad draws.

I think it certainly warrants more testing, but whether or not it could replace Plated Sliver remains to be seen. And it will probably be a while before the UWb list is anywhere near as tuned as the UWg, simply because it's still in it's infancy.

BreathWeapon

05-10-2007, 07:39 PM

I'm not certain that UWB is slower than UWG, because UWB can use Hibernating Sliver in order to cast all of its creatures against control and then return them to its hand in case of Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives.

Despite being 2/2, Hibernating Sliver can still block/be blocked and then return to the hand against Goblins, and Engineered Plague is a lot stronger than another +1/1 Sliver against Goblins.

Besides, there are other approaches against aggro, increasing the Engineered Explosives or adding Umezawa's Jitte for example, and about the worst I've come across is the 3/3 and 4/4s of Threshold, but no one is going to be using Threshold in a Flash environment with Leyline of the Void if they're sane.

kicks_422

05-10-2007, 08:37 PM

Well, first off, you cant ever use Jitte in MeatHooks because of Crystalline.

Engineered Plague is a lot stronger than another +1/1 Sliver against Goblins.

Sure. But with the deck as it is, the Goblins MU is already pretty good, so that shouldn't be a basis for splashing black.

Hiebrnation Sliver is pretty juicy, especially against control. However, I think it's better to have a quicker clock against combo and a better game against aggro than being able to save your SLivers from mass removal, when Meddling Mage or Needles out of the board can handle that.

BreathWeapon

05-10-2007, 10:06 PM

That's not true, despite Shroud and Equipment conflicting with one another, Umezawa's Jitte can be equipped before Crystaline Sliver is played, or you can kill your Crystaline Sliver in the combat phase or return it to your hand with a Hibernation Sliver. It can be annoying sometimes, but you can usually get your Umezawa's Jittes equipped if you need to.

Black isn't about Hibernation Sliver or Engineered Plague, altho' they're both really good, it's about Duress and Extirpate against Flash.

Maverick676

05-10-2007, 11:32 PM

That's not true, despite Shroud and Equipment conflicting with one another, Umezawa's Jitte can be equipped before Crystaline Sliver is played, or you can kill your Crystaline Sliver in the combat phase or return it to your hand with a Hibernation Sliver. It can be annoying sometimes, but you can usually get your Umezawa's Jittes equipped if you need to.

Black isn't about Hibernation Sliver or Engineered Plague, altho' they're both really good, it's about Duress and Extirpate against Flash.

KILL YOURSELF

EDIT: My apologies, what I meant to say is that running jitte in a deck with only untargetable creatures is, for lack of a better word, RETARDED. Until they print the troll ascetic sliver jitte cannot be worked into meathooks.

Volt

05-10-2007, 11:38 PM

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Pinder

05-10-2007, 11:46 PM

While I might not agree that you should end your life, that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I'm not going to pay 2 life, pay 2 mana to equip Jitte, then pay 2 more mana to replay Crystalline, all while putting my creatures at risk of removal, just so I can get a Jitte on something. It's just not worth it. Jitte and 'shroud' just don't mix. And besides, the deck runs 19 creatures as is. What do you think we should take out for Jitte? If we take out creatures, we now have 15-16 creatures, which isn't really enough to use Jitte effectively. And I doubt that we should be taking out cantrips and countermagic for them.

All in all, Jitte just doesn't really fit in this deck.

BreathWeapon

05-11-2007, 08:10 PM

It's not as if Umezawa's Jitte and Crystaline Sliver are going to be in the same hand each and every game, if you cast Crystaline Sliver and you can't equip the Umezawa's Jitte in your deck, just Brainstorm it away. It's not a terrible one or two slot in the deck, and it has no more/worse anti-synergy than Engineered Explosives etc.

kicks_422

05-11-2007, 08:25 PM

It's not as if Umezawa's Jitte and Crystaline Sliver AND Brainstorm are going to be in the same hand each and every game. That would be a lot of hard work to fit in a card that's not really screaming to be included in.

Bane of the Living

05-11-2007, 08:27 PM

I think the best way for this deck to evolve currently is to swap Daze to Trickbind. Daze seems like it should be good against fast combo but most HF players are settling on a slower controlling build instead. Any good Flash player will keep a mana up for Daze. Trickbind is simply the best anti flash card available since you cost them both a Flash and a Hulk. They need to rebuild both of these lost materials. Oh and Trickbind has split second of course. Stifle and Trickbind combined give the deck a sweet disruption spot it was already liking with just Stifle but Trick amplifies it.

Pinder

05-12-2007, 02:11 AM

I think the best way for this deck to evolve currently is to swap Daze to Trickbind. Daze seems like it should be good against fast combo but most HF players are settling on a slower controlling build instead. Any good Flash player will keep a mana up for Daze.

It could be worth consideration, but the fact that HF players have to keep mana open for Daze slows them down by a full turn. They aren't going to try and go off turn 2 if they know you have Daze, even if you're tapped out (which you need to be if you're busy sticking threats). That much shouldn't be disccounted. Simply having Daze in the deck is effective. Especially if you can back it up with a clock.

Trickbind is simply the best anti flash card available since you cost them both a Flash and a Hulk. They need to rebuild both of these lost materials. Oh and Trickbind has split second of course. Stifle and Trickbind combined give the deck a sweet disruption spot it was already liking with just Stifle but Trick amplifies it.

This is a good point, but I'm worried that Trickbind might be a little too slow. Of course, the split second on it is just sexy. And the fact that the second clause can keep them from using Carrion Feeder for the rest of the turn (if for some reason you didn't stop the Hulk trigger).

Either way, it's worth looking at, I suppose.

Bane of the Living

05-12-2007, 03:06 PM

When playtesting against this version of the deck, mind you I expected Daze the whole time and still played around it like a sucker. HF needs discard against Trinkbind or they pretty much take it in the butt.

aisman132000

05-12-2007, 03:20 PM

I'm not sure if it matters if you have daze in your deck or not either way they will play around it. That being said daze should still be in the md as a 4 of but i think trick bind deserves a spot somewhere in the sb.

Pinder

05-12-2007, 03:42 PM

That being said daze should still be in the md as a 4 of but i think trick bind deserves a spot somewhere in the sb.

This is a good point. Trickbind is great against HF, but Stifle is pretty much strictly better at what it does in the vast majority of the non-Flash matchups. Trickbind could be a possible SB inclusion, but if you're already boarding, I think that bringing in Mages would probably be a better option anyway.

The sideboard also improves control matchups, in addition to improving the Threshold matchup and combo matchups. The lone 1-of Hibernation Sliver gives you resiliency Sliver #5, which can help against a ton of different decks (and I wish I had room for 1 more MD).

The manabase is stable. With Goblins on a slight decline, this makes the manabase even more acceptable.

Volt

05-13-2007, 01:28 AM

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revenge_inc

05-15-2007, 08:40 PM

I have two lists to share:

This one won the Toronto GPT and Split the top prizes for another 29 person tournament:

I have two lists to share:
Two successfull builds, one plays Vial, the other doesn't

Yeah, I saw the list with Vial. Certainly is interesting. I've never had much luck with it, but if it's winning GPTs, far be it from me to talk it down.

BTW Meathooks is the stupidest fucking name.....ever!

Yeah, so? You can just call it CounterSliver if you want. I promise no one here will be offended. It really only matters what name sticks.

And what were the rules for the LMF again :tongue:?
edit: Nevermind, it has to be an American tourney.

Kronicler

05-15-2007, 09:07 PM

So the only difference between them is 4 Stifle 3 Vial in the 1st list and 4 SV 3 CSpell in the 2nd one. Oh, and the 1st list runs a basic forest. Frankly, I'm not surprised. These differences highlight the only things that are debatable in the current meathooks build (unless you take into account hulk flash... thats a whole knew can of worms). Do you run Stifle? If so how many? Do you run vial? Do we have enough creatures to support it? Which is better, SV or Portent? What is the best number of CSpells? Is a basic forest worth a slot in the deck? Frankly, I'm not sure if there is a correct answer to these questions, though I'm sure everyone (including myself) has their own opinions. In the end though, most of the answers come down to your own metagame and your own play style. It certainly is nice to see this deck putting up results though. It is an excellent deck and currently, I do not think it is getting the respect it deserves.

Kronicler

xsockmonkeyx

05-15-2007, 09:12 PM

BTW Meathooks is the stupidest fucking name.....ever!Exactly :smile:

It is important to note that each deck was different yet had the following in common:

The 19 Slivers
12 BS/FoW/StP
4 Daze

This deck is a lot like thresh in that each player will customize it to their own preferences but retain a lot of cards in common just based on power level consideration.

EDIT: so are you guys finally gonna consider Aether Vial again? 1 mana to kill 2 cards (FOW + pitch) is always good and often what Aether Vial ends up doing, vial is that threatening. At least it would be much stronger in the new(post HF) counter heavy environment.

Volt

05-15-2007, 10:23 PM

.

xsockmonkeyx

05-15-2007, 10:31 PM

:(

Volt

05-15-2007, 10:34 PM

.

xsockmonkeyx

05-15-2007, 10:52 PM

Thats a lot of fucking, my friend.:cry:

Its not very scientific to write off possibilities forever especially since it has some results and the environment has shifted.

Maverick676

05-15-2007, 11:23 PM

FUCK AETHER VIAL

I agree.

Its great to see the deck do well, but I really hope not many people play it at columbus. As the mirror match makes me want to murder myself.

CalebD

05-15-2007, 11:39 PM

I've lost many games to vial-(harmonic sliver) in 'hooks playing with FS. I'd imagine that decks running more countermagic would lose games to it as well, probably more. Being able to drop in a muscle sliver as a combat trick is also pretty wicked against the creature decks, and winged sliver can even be an instant-speed trick as well. I've even walked a Xantid Swarm into a Vial-Winged Sliver before. Nothing I'm proud of, but hey it happens.

I really like that Toronto GPT list, I think it's really solid. 3 vials seems like the best number.

Maverick676

05-15-2007, 11:44 PM

Actually 0 vial is the right number, hardcasting harmonic sliver is just as effective as vialing it in. Also why does it matter if you walk xantid into a winged sliver? the ability still works and you wouldn't attack unless you were going to go off that turn. Seriously this deck doesn't need combat tricks it has brute force on its side. Vial might be a SB consideration, but as a MD choice it is sub-par.

Pinder

05-15-2007, 11:51 PM

Okay. Here goes:

If you want to play Aether Vial, play Aether Vial.
If you don't want to play Aether Vial, then don't play Aether Vial.

Now was that hard?

As far as the standard list (read: Page 1 list) goes, I think Aether Vial is out for the time being, but if you really like it for whatever reason, go ahead and fiddle. Mutation is a necessary element in evolution.

Volt

05-16-2007, 12:24 AM

.

Zilla

05-16-2007, 12:51 AM

lol hay gusy i havnt had a chance to read the thred but i am jsut wonderin.... since there r so many cretures in this decks wouldnt it make sense 2 run aether vail??? my bro ran it at are local tourny and he said it was real good

- zilla

Kronicler

05-16-2007, 01:37 AM

Please refer to the Forum Rules before posting. You are expected to use correct gramar and your posts must have actual content.

Oh, and welcome to The Source.

Kronicler

Kidding aside, that was an excellent example of a really anoying person suggesting Aether Vial, Zilla. The sad part is that those kind of posts keep happening for real. *sigh*

Volt

05-16-2007, 01:52 AM

.

xsockmonkeyx

05-16-2007, 01:55 AM

Its time to start considering Aether Vial in CounterSliver.

See at least somebody is on my side.:tongue:

@Volt: I didnt say it was good I just wanted you to consider it and keep it an option.

CalebD

05-16-2007, 04:08 PM

I know you guys are sick of this conversation, so this'll be my last post on the subject.

Actually 0 vial is the right number, hardcasting harmonic sliver is just as effective as vialing it in.

Unless your opponent has double force of will in his hand? Or you've been saving a sliver or two for the comes into play effect of harmonic while you dig for it, then the vials let you dump a bunch of slivers into play at once to take advantage of harmonics' ability.

Also why does it matter if you walk xantid into a winged sliver? the ability still works and you wouldn't attack unless you were going to go off that turn.

I had an Infernal (fetching up a second LED) that I definately wanted to resolve that turn, as the opponent was beating down. Had the opponent not had the vial he would've just played the winged sliver, and I wouldn't have attacked and had somewhat of a chance to go off the next turn. I had a Plunge in hand to try and fetch the second LED, or I could've grabbed a ritual and TD'd a mana spell and won.

My point with this example was that vial can be good against decks it has no right being good against.

Seriously this deck doesn't need combat tricks it has brute force on its side. Vial might be a SB consideration, but as a MD choice it is sub-par.

And when your force is out-bruted? I've won a surprising number of games in this format due to combat tricks. No one expects you to echoing truth their equipment mid-combat, but if you do it at the right time it wins games. There are decks that run larger creatures than you in this format, and if you can setup unfavorable combat situations via vial it can win you the game.

I guess my point with this arguement was just to point out that instant speed matters. Not as much as the uncounterability, sure, but still a lot.

Theagent002

05-16-2007, 04:43 PM

Question is Mage main better for the Meta than, Vial Main?

the Agent002

kicks_422

05-16-2007, 07:15 PM

My point with this example was that vial can be good against decks it has no right being good against.

Combo is a match-up that the deck IS already good against, so I don't see your point here.

There are decks that run larger creatures than you in this format, and if you can setup unfavorable combat situations via vial it can win you the game.

Really? Which ones? Are these bigger creatures uncounterable, un-StP-able, and/or bigger than Slivers when there are 2-4 pump Slivers in play?

Question is Mage main better for the Meta than, Vial Main?

I don't think any of these 2 is needed in the MD, but if I had to make the choice, Mage by far.

Pinder

05-16-2007, 07:16 PM

Question is Mage main better for the Meta than, Vial Main?

the Agent002

Yes. Maindeck Mage is most definitely better than maindeck Vial in the current meta. If you're going to maindeck one, maindeck the Mages.

thefreakaccident

05-16-2007, 07:21 PM

I have recently picked up this deck (play testing and all)... it seems fairly solid.. I usually play fish/thresh/BBS.. this seems to have the same disruption package without any of the other threes' draw backs... lets face it, thresh is an awesome deck whose competativity cannot be surpassed; that is until leyline hits the board.

I have found that this is a little bit less stremlined, but happens to have more stable threats, more disruption, and has a stronger mana base.

I have also found that the treats in this deck get larger than those of the other two previously noted (I have seen many games where I have several 5/5s out that fly when they have like a 4/4 and 2 3/3s... BIG DIFERENCE).

I can see this doing quite well for itself in the future... I will probably pick it up to get first at my local tourney!

EDIT: so I heard from a reliable source that you guys like mudkips... is this true?

personally I don't like mudkips... I LOVE mudkips.

Pinder

05-16-2007, 07:28 PM

EDIT: so I heard from a reliable source that you guys like mudkips... is this true?

Where did you hear that o_O?

revenge_inc

05-16-2007, 09:31 PM

So if CounterSliver becomes popular enough, what cards are effective in the CounterSliver-CounterSliver(mirror) matchup? I'm thinking maybe Spell Snare, EE, or a couple of Wraths. (Assuming of course the banning of Flash).

xsockmonkeyx

05-16-2007, 09:44 PM

Ensnare is a pretty techy card. Tap them down EOT for free and swing for the win.

Volt

05-16-2007, 10:12 PM

.

revenge_inc

05-16-2007, 10:26 PM

If you play Vial maybe Telekinetic Sliver could do the same thing...never mind it sucks...:laugh:
Aether Shockwave is a bad ensnare, Choking Tethers is ok...
Tangle Wire can be Ok if they already have an advantage...
Broken Dam is the fastest option, costing only one blue...

Yup, Ensnare is gold in the mirror. Can't find anything better.

Kronicler

05-16-2007, 10:28 PM

EE and Wrath actually aren't good tech for the mirror at all because you will just end up killing your guys too. Spell Snare seems like good tech though, as does ensnare.

Kronicler

Volt

05-16-2007, 10:28 PM

.

Volt

05-22-2007, 05:30 PM

.

Pinder

05-22-2007, 08:25 PM

AETHER VIAL IS RETARDEDly good in this meta.

I must admit that in a format filled with Force of Will, Spell Snare, and Daze like the GP, Vial can be an invaluable way to get your guys to stick to the table. It also helped smooth mana somewhat, but this wasn't as big an issue as some might think.

The Spell Snares were a meta call for the GP, and can probably safely be removed entirely or moved to the board. So far I've reverted back to a more traditional list, removing the Snares for 2 Counterspell and the 4th Plated again. I've left the Vials in for now, though, and I'll let you know how that goes.

As far as the right number of Vials, 4 is definitely too many, but whether or not 2 or 3 is the better number remains to be seen. I like 2, but that's just me.

Also, I saw a few builds that were making use of Standstill, which was interesting. I think it's ultimately too situational, but interesting.

eternaldarkness

05-23-2007, 05:30 AM

So people finally started seeing the light and maindecking Aether Vial in Countersliver. :wink:

I really can't see why people diss the vial. All of your creatures cost 2 cc so getting one vial with 2 counters on it ensures you'll be able to play all of your slivers. It dodges countermagic, gets slivers in play at instant speed and for free plus it fixes your mana. What's not to love?

Standstill seems interesting to me too. It would require Vial to be an auto-include in the deck...but since I already feel that way shouldn't be too much of a problem

Spell Snare is really good in a format that is a sea of Fish, Threshold and Flash. Might make your Goblins match-up a little bad but at least it can still counter piledriver.

xsockmonkeyx

05-23-2007, 07:24 AM

EDIT: so are you guys finally gonna consider Aether Vial again? 1 mana to kill 2 cards (FOW + pitch) is always good and often what Aether Vial ends up doing, vial is that threatening. At least it would be much stronger in the new(post HF) counter heavy environment.

Edit: :P

eternaldarkness

05-23-2007, 09:31 AM

FUCK AETHER VIAL

I rest my case.

Pinder

05-23-2007, 11:20 AM

What's not to love?

Running out of creatures to Vial in, topdecking it late game, giving people targets for Needles, etc.

I think our main beef with Vial stemmed from the fact that our initial testing was running 4 Vial in a list with roughly 16 or so creatures. It was decidedly subpar then, so we wrote it off. With the advent of Sinew Sliver and our creature count going up to 19, Vial is a tad more useful, but still not at 4. Possibly not even at 3. I'm fairly comfortable with it at 2.

Standstill seems interesting to me too. It would require Vial to be an auto-include in the deck...but since I already feel that way shouldn't be too much of a problem

I dunno. The raw card draw is appealing, but I don't like how situational it is. It's always worth a try, though.

Spell Snare is really good in a format that is a sea of Fish, Threshold and Flash. Might make your Goblins match-up a little bad but at least it can still counter piledriver.

Yeah, Spell Snare is great in a Fishy metagame. It's also pretty stellar in the mirror as well. If things go back to the way they were, though, I doubt Spell Snare will warrant a maindeck slot.

Volt

05-23-2007, 12:42 PM

.

eternaldarkness

05-23-2007, 01:33 PM

Running out of creatures to Vial in, topdecking it late game, giving people targets for Needles, etc.

I think our main beef with Vial stemmed from the fact that our initial testing was running 4 Vial in a list with roughly 16 or so creatures. It was decidedly subpar then, so we wrote it off. With the advent of Sinew Sliver and our creature count going up to 19, Vial is a tad more useful, but still not at 4. Possibly not even at 3. I'm fairly comfortable with it at 2.

Yeah I remember reading through something like that. The accepted creature count anyway now is 19 so vial becomes much better. Two seems like the right number, though my list runs 3. I've never really hated the card when it showed up in my opening hand and three copies ensures that I always do without increasing the risk of dead topdecks. But I can see how two would be acceptable.

Looking forward to a post-Flash environment

Aren't we all? :)

Rasen

06-05-2007, 10:17 AM

Aren't we all? :)
Noooooo....I wanted to do HulkFlash with 3x Virulent Sliver, 1x Shadow Sliver, and a butt-load of Pacts and Wills to protect them.....:cry:

I kid, but after GROSSLY misunderstanding Protean Hulk, this was what I came up with.

This is the build I've been trying lately. I cut the land count down to 17 since Aether Vial is essentially a land drop and the deck still utilizes the 8 cantrip plan. 20 mana sources, 3 of which can produce 2 mana, seems like it would be plenty.

Because of Aether Vial, the deck is now able to run the lone 1-of on Eladamri's Call again, as well as 3 Counterspells. Vial is a mana accelerant, which allows the deck to spend normal mana on the more expensive 2cc spells.

I run 3 Aether Vial instead of 2 because Aether Vial is something you want to see early. If you don't see it early, you don't really want to see it late. It's not too bad of a topdeck if you consider it as land (where topdecking land lategame is just as awful), but it's still not something you want to see late. With 3, I increase my chances of seeing it earlier, when I really want to see it.

My creature count is lower than the standard 19, which might make Vial less useful. I still need to test. I cut a Plated Sliver to make room and I cut a Winged Sliver for an Eladamri's Call. This may get switched back to a Winged Sliver.

I think, even in a metagame where there isn't tons of FoW and such, Vial is still useful for the deck. I've always found Slivers to be a little mana hungry early, where Vial fixes that. It also improves the Threshold matchup by depleting their hand of counters to counter it, or simply making my creatures uncounterable if they don't.

The sideboard was just tossed together real quick. The Winter Orb's drastically improve the Landstill matchup, which is a matchup that needs specifically addressed with the sideboard. Everything else I have in there is just generalized stuff like Needle and Mage.

b4r0n

06-05-2007, 01:49 PM

Pinder: What does your sideboard look like now that Flash is banned?

Derklord

06-05-2007, 05:06 PM

@Hanni:
I don't like that lonesome Eladamri's Call at all... too random to be reliable in early game imo. I'd put that one back to Winged, but I'm not through with testen Call yet.

I absolutly agree with the 3. Vial over the 18. Land, Vial allows you to keep hands with just one land.

Have you testet Portent? Without Vial Portent was much petter (used it on my opponent quite often and the delayed draw didn't hurt too often), that might have changed with Vial.

Winter Orb ain't a bad idea, I was even thinking about Armageddon (resolved Geddon with Vial in play and probably land in hand is gg) but Winter Orb 'might' be better.
The Landstill MU has improved a lot with Vial already. I wonder if Orb is a better SB choice than Tormod's Crypt...

Hanni

06-05-2007, 05:18 PM

@Hanni:
I don't like that lonesome Eladamri's Call at all... too random to be reliable in early game imo. I'd put that one back to Winged, but I'm not through with testen Call yet.

I haven't had enough testing to tell either. I haven't even drawn it yet. It probably would be better to just revert back to 3 Winged Sliver but I still want to test it a little more.

Have you testet Portent?

I've tested alot of different cantrip configurations in Fish, Thresh, Slivers, and so forth. I find Brainstorm and Serum Visions to be the best 2 cantrips out of all of the ones I've tested, others have found Portent to be better than Serum Visions. Whatever fits personal preference, I suppose, and I prefer Serum Visions.

Arcanix

06-06-2007, 11:06 AM

I've been wanting to play this deck for awhile now, but never got to until last weekend. I didn't not have a decklist when I went to make my deck and couldn't find my dazes so my deck wasn't as good as it should have been, So I put a delay in the Counterspell slot. I was really happy with them. Now granted I played some really awful decks that don't hold a candle to anything one would see at a decent tourney.

I was thinking that Delay may be better than counterspell mainly because of the casting cost.

Rasen

06-06-2007, 02:56 PM

I was thinking that Delay may be better than counterspell mainly because of the casting cost.

Delay is nice, but (and this is my beef with Remand too) you better have another solution on the way, or win within the next few turns. Just my opinion though.

Maverick676

06-07-2007, 02:56 AM

In a deck that runs blue sources for every land except one, counterspell is far superior to delay, remand, mana leak, runesnage and every other 1U counterspell you could think of. Although generally maindeck daze and force should be run before counterspell.

Citrus-God

06-07-2007, 03:04 AM

Delay is nice, but (and this is my beef with Remand too) you better have another solution on the way, or win within the next few turns. Just my opinion though.

He's right. Delay is only good because it stalls the game, not solve the threat. If you're gonna run Delay, run it in a deck like Tron or Solidarity (which is just bad) so you can stall until turn 6-8 and just win. In a deck like Meathooks, you dont want to stall the game. You want to win, but you also want to not lose.

Mordenkain

06-07-2007, 05:12 AM

Is running an additional color (green) solely for Muscle Sliver worth it?
I can see it being probbaly the best sliver, but playing one extra color for that card alone seems iffy to me. =3

Any care to enlightened me why this is neccesary?

Maverick676

06-07-2007, 05:31 AM

8 muscle slivers is incredibly strong. Not to metion harmonic sliver in the board, which is extremely strong in alot of matchups.

eternaldarkness

06-08-2007, 05:16 AM

The original list posted on the first page makes use of 3 colors with muscle sliver and sinew sliver.

8 pump slivers looks good but remember that the list was made with Flash in mind. Wasteland was underplayed then, hence the 3 colors. I predict that old archetypes made obsolete by Flash are about to resurface along with the practice of maindecking 4 Wastes.

LGD

06-08-2007, 06:54 AM

The original list posted on the first page makes use of 3 colors with muscle sliver and sinew sliver.

8 pump slivers looks good but remember that the list was made with Flash in mind. Wasteland was underplayed then, hence the 3 colors. I predict that old archetypes made obsolete by Flash are about to resurface along with the practice of maindecking 4 Wastes.

what

Edit: Ok, you don't really deserve an explanation, but it is difficult to imagine any statement about Meathooks that could be more wrong. The deck was designed as an aggro-control alternative to Threshold that had a much better goblins matchup and dodged the graveyard hate immediately after people found out about Sinew Sliver in PC. This was because being able to run 8 muscle slivers seemed fucking awesome and Countersliver was historically a fantastic aggro-control deck. It was designed for a format that expected to see decks packing 4x wasteland and did quite well in that format pre-Flash.

Volt

06-08-2007, 01:09 PM

.

xsockmonkeyx

06-08-2007, 03:14 PM

Edit: The deck was designed as an aggro-control alternative to Threshold that had a much better goblins matchup and dodged the graveyard hate immediately after people found out about Sinew Sliver in PC.

First two points are true, the third is slightly inaccurate. It was made back last September/October when it was revealed that there might be new slivers in Time Spiral. It just got a really huge boost after Planar Chaos and became what it is today because you can play 8 Muscle Slivers.

Also, flames @ eternalwhatever. RTFTplz.

Mulletus

06-08-2007, 03:18 PM

I like the looks of this deck. I am a big fan of slivers in general. I even have a binder of rare/foil slivers. I had hopes of making a Battle of witts deck with all slivers printed as an alternate win condition, but I like to win. I want my foil Harmonic back Calosso.

More importantly, I have thoughts of justifying my Aether vials. Firt off, I'd like to try a couple Divining tops. And most of all my Vials are foil.

xsockmonkeyx

06-08-2007, 03:30 PM

I like the looks of this deck. I am a big fan of slivers in general. I even have a binder of rare/foil slivers. I had hopes of making a Battle of witts deck with all slivers printed as an alternate win condition, but I like to win. I want my foil Harmonic back Calosso.

Ooooo, pics in the pimp stuff thread please!

Derklord

06-08-2007, 03:39 PM

The original list posted on the first page makes use of 3 colors with muscle sliver and sinew sliver.

8 pump slivers looks good but remember that the list was made with Flash in mind. Wasteland was underplayed then, hence the 3 colors. I predict that old archetypes made obsolete by Flash are about to resurface along with the practice of maindecking 4 Wastes.
The Deck was testet with 3 colors without Vial and had good results. Now it runs Vial...
Think about that.

Additionally, there are so many decks out there running 3 colors... Thresh, Hannifish etc. They wouldn't be so much played (and so sucessful) if they would be wrecked by Wasteland, would they?

Maverick676

06-09-2007, 03:28 AM

I thought I'd address three main points I keep seeing.

1)Wasteland will not wreck this deck if you fetch intelligently.

2)Vial was a last minute include at GP columbus due to the high amount of fish and thresh at the GP. Plus they weren't horrible in the flash matchup.

3)This deck was orignally created early september last year by myself and Pinder as a threshold like deck without a graveyard weakness for a wasteland/goblins heavy metagame. After about two weeks of testing we posted the list on the source, Volt and Sockmonkey started working on the deck at that point (and a few other people whose names escape me right now).

kicks_422

06-09-2007, 08:38 AM

Wow, this deck's getting popular. I loaded it up on MWS for old time's sake, and faced the mirror 3 freaking games in a row.

This deck was already in progress before Sinew came out (those slots were Talon Slivers and some extra Winged Slivers then). With the printing of Sinew, this deck bumped itself up into the upper tier.

eternaldarkness

06-09-2007, 09:41 AM

The list in the opening post was actually rather poor against Hulk Flash. It was designed to beat Goblins, which it does about 2 out of 3 times. Wastelands usually aren't a problem. You can fetch basics, cantrip into more lands, or whatever. In many games, you can operate just fine off of basic island + basic plains.

The question about whether or not splashing green is "worth it" is one that keeps coming up. The answer is yes. Most assuredly yes. Even if green gave us nothing else, it would be worth splashing it just for the Muscle Slivers. The fact that it allows us to run Harmonic Sliver in the sideboard is a nice bonus.

Ok I stand corrected. Sorry for the mix-up

Pinder

06-09-2007, 12:37 PM

1)Wasteland will not wreck this deck if you fetch intelligently.

This man speaks truth!

2)Vial was a last minute include at GP columbus due to the high amount of fish and thresh at the GP. Plus they weren't horrible in the flash matchup.

Now I wouldn't ditch them if you asked me. I'm thinking that 2 is the right number, though (I recently bumped them up to 3, and I didn't notice a huge difference except in the number of times I topdecked them late game).

3)This deck was orignally created early september last year by myself and Pinder as a threshold like deck without a graveyard weakness for a wasteland/goblins heavy metagame. After about two weeks of testing we posted the list on the source, Volt and Sockmonkey started working on the deck at that point (and a few other people whose names escape me right now).

Those people being (mainly) Kronicler, Aggro_Zombies, kicks_422 (who called the deck MeatHooks first). I'm sure I've forgotten other people as well, so I'll just put a disclaimer in here that there were probably even more.

edit: And yeah, green is splashed mainly for the 4 Muscle Slivers, and secondarily for the Harmonics in the board. Oddly enough though, you could probably survive without the extra Muscle in some sort of UWb Sliver build, but the loss of Harmonic is actually one of the roughest things about leaving green.

Goaswerfraiejen

06-09-2007, 02:58 PM

To be fair, interest in the deck saw a resurgence in June or July of last year, rather than September, with the revival of the House of Slivers post at SCG. The interest shown at the time, however, was as nothing compared to the effort that Pinder, Volt, et al. put in from September onwards. But, since this is a sliver deck (essentially, both are Countersliver decks), the differences are minimal. Sinew Sliver is really what pushed the deck over the edge and into high viability--8 Muscle Slivers is hard for any deck to contend with, especially when they become untargetable.

Wasteland is, in my opinion, a minor cocnern at best--it's at its worst when it recurs through either Loam or Crucible, or when backed up by other land destruction. The thing is, though, that Wasteland often represents tempo loss for your opponent if it's played from a more reactive position--and as a Sliver player, you've got momentum on your side. You only really need two lands, and once permanents hit the table, you become a significant threat. There are only a few situations in which I think that wasting this deck's lands is actually worth it--and they all entail your opponent being ahead of the game, which is rare enough. Now that Aether Vial is finally being included, Wasteland (along with other mana disruption) has just become that much less of a concern.

In any case, I'm glad that the deck is becoming so popular again--it's been dormant for too long! :smile:

Like Sui, which everyone laughed at me for suggesting a few years ago. :frown:

Mordenkain

06-09-2007, 04:40 PM

Im picking this deck up soon, going to love it, im sure, but i have a few questions i would like to have some answers.

1) First of all, is CounterSliver a good choice in my meta? My meta is mostly composed of aggro-control decks like fish and some goblins, and a lot of random agro stuff. Madness seems populair to for some reasons. Also, occasionally, Truffle Shuffle and Loam shows up, so I would like to ask whats the matchups against:
Madness
TruffleShuffle/Loam (Anti-creature control decks)
Hanni Fish
Zoo

2) With respect to the previous question, would it be an okay idea to take out the 3 counterspell in favor of some vials? Im absolutely in love with Vial, and i would like to use them here.

3) Does Sensei's Divining Top have a place in this deck? No? :(

4) Why Portent over Serum Visions? What makes it so much better? I used to be a huge fan of serum visions and I have noticed that people begins to use Portent over it in a lot of decks nowadays.

5) Really, I would like to ask for some more oppinions about the inclusion of green for muscle sliver, and wether its really worth a whole color.

6) If I were to want more creature removal, what should I run besides my Swords to Plowshares?

Thank you in advance
- Mordenkain

Pinder

06-09-2007, 05:29 PM

1) First of all, is CounterSliver a good choice in my meta? My meta is mostly composed of aggro-control decks like fish and some goblins, and a lot of random agro stuff. Madness seems populair to for some reasons. Also, occasionally, Truffle Shuffle and Loam shows up, so I would like to ask whats the matchups against:
Madness
TruffleShuffle/Loam (Anti-creature control decks)
Hanni Fish
Zoo

Well, Countersliver pretty much eats up random Aggro and Goblins, and has decent matchups against Fish and Thresh (better against Fish than Thresh, however). As far as Aggro Control is concerned, White Thresh is probably the hardest matchup (especially if they run EE). Madness I honestly haven't done a ton of testing against, so perhaps someone else might be able to expound on that.

As far as Truffle Shuffle, it's just not good. Neither is The Rock, really. Landstill is a little easier (UW/UR moreso than BHWC), but dedicated board control is never that great for your slivery friends.

All in all though, given your descritption I think Countersliver is a pretty good fit for your meta.

2) With respect to the previous question, would it be an okay idea to take out the 3 counterspell in favor of some vials? Im absolutely in love with Vial, and i would like to use them here.

I'm not sure what the list on the first page says, but for reference, I've already taken out the 2 Counterspells I was running to add Vial #3 and Portent #4. I'm thinking of pushing Vial back down to 2, though. My current counter suite is 4 FoW and 4 Daze.

3) Does Sensei's Divining Top have a place in this deck? No? :(

I've often wondered that myself. I could see it replacing Portent as a 3-4 of, but it's not nearly as nice for digging out of land light hands as Portent. I tried a whole Counterbalance/Top thing after the mild success of it in Thresh, and found that Top was decent without Counterbalance, but we just don't have enough cantrips to make Counterbalance very effective without Top. I'd say go ahead and try it if you want, and let us know.

4) Why Portent over Serum Visions? What makes it so much better? I used to be a huge fan of serum visions and I have noticed that people begins to use Portent over it in a lot of decks nowadays.

It's not a blind draw, mostly. The two spells are honestly very similar, but there are certain advantages that swing things in Portent's favor. You can target your opponents, for one. That in and of itself can be devatstating if your opponent is light on land or looking for something in partucular. Also, you can use it as a shuffle effect, which is nice. Not being able to draw the card right away can hurt sometimes, but mostly the drawback is irrelevant. Typically it just helps you set up a counterspell for your opponent's turn, as well as your next draw.

5) Really, I would like to ask for some more oppinions about the inclusion of green for muscle sliver, and wether its really worth a whole color.

Yes it is. Just....yes. It is. It also gives you Harmonic in the board, which is actually pretty damn sexy once you get it going.

6) If I were to want more creature removal, what should I run besides my Swords to Plowshares?

Tough pick, really. Umm....Engineered Explosives is always a favorite, as long as your not trying to blow up a ton of 2cc stuff. It's also pretty fantastic against tokens from EtW et al. As far as targeted spot removal, I'm not sure there's a lot outside of Swords in our colors that's worth mentioning.

Thank you in advance
- Mordenkain

You're welcome.

Mulletus

06-09-2007, 06:20 PM

Ok, Riddle me this Batman: Let's say my opponent has 2 Engineered Plagues, I have a Vial out at 2. Can I cast a Harmonic and Vial in another Sliver destroying both Plagues? Now does the answer get different if the Vialed-in-Sliver is a +1/+1'er?

Cait_Sith

06-09-2007, 06:45 PM

If you hardcast Harmonic first it will die unless you have at least 2 Sinew/Muscle Slivers out. Period. There is nothing you can do about this. However, you will still be able to destroy a Plague. This will be before you can Vial out another Sliver to pop the 2nd Plague.

If you control 0 Muscle/Sinew Slivers, your opponent controls ones Plague set to Sliver, and you drop a Muscle or Sinew Sliver, it will survive as a 1/1. The -1/-1 of Plague and the +1/+1 of Plague apply at the same time, so when SBEs are checked the Sliver will be a 1/1.

Does that answer your question?

Pinder

06-09-2007, 07:04 PM

From what I can tell of your question, no. You play the Harmonic, it resolves, the triggered ability goes on the stack, and then before either player has a chance to do anything, the game checks for state based effects. It says 'Oh look, a 0/0 Sliver. It shouldn't be in play. Better put it in the yard.' Then, after that happens, things on the stack can start resolving. The triggered ability will resolve, and will kill a plague, but not before the Harmonic is dead. You could always Vial in a Sliver in response to Haromonic, but that wouldn't really do anything except kill that sliver right before the Harmonic hit the table anyway.

kicks_422

06-09-2007, 11:27 PM

Re: the Madness MU.

It's really just like Fish with much bigger dudes on their part. Assuming it's a build kinda like the one Chang won with, the headaches are Jitte and Mongrel. Post-SB, boarding in Needles swings the MU solidly for MeatHooks.

xsockmonkeyx

06-10-2007, 12:15 AM

Im picking this deck up soon, going to love it, im sure, but i have a few questions i would like to have some answers.

Ill take a shot.

1) First of all, is CounterSliver a good choice in my meta? My meta is mostly composed of aggro-control decks like fish and some goblins, and a lot of random agro stuff. Madness seems populair to for some reasons. Also, occasionally, Truffle Shuffle and Loam shows up, so I would like to ask whats the matchups against:
Madness
TruffleShuffle/Loam (Anti-creature control decks)
Hanni Fish
Zoo

The deck's best matchups are aggro decks so Goblins and Zoo are not a problem. HanniFish and Madness are tougher because of their control elements and the fact that they run Jitte. You match or trump them in size but if they manage to counter or remove key sliver pieces (Crystal, Winged) then you will have a tougher time winning. Anti-creature control decks are a pain in the ass and not a good matchup by any means. They often have too many bombs to counter and board sweep is not friendly to slivers.

2) With respect to the previous question, would it be an okay idea to take out the 3 counterspell in favor of some vials? Im absolutely in love with Vial, and i would like to use them here.

It would be a meta call probably. In a heavy fish-like meta the Vials would be excellent as they often have to force a turn 1 vial (mind rot for 1 colorless :P ) or risk being swarmed by free uncounterable slivers. In a meta light in counterspells the Vial loses a lot of its value.

3) Does Sensei's Divining Top have a place in this deck? No? :(

Maybe. We tried it out and it didnt do much for us but you should explore all possiblilties and make your own decision.

4) Why Portent over Serum Visions? What makes it so much better? I used to be a huge fan of serum visions and I have noticed that people begins to use Portent over it in a lot of decks nowadays.

There are a few reasons. First you run 8 free counters so a turn one Portent is golden. It gives you the best chance to have an answer by your opponant's next turn. Lets say one of the top 3 cards is FOW/Daze. With a turn one Serum Visions you have a 33% chance to have the counter on your opponants turn. With Portent it would be a sure thing. Second, Portent is also good in the late game for its ability to manipulate your opponent's top cards. With portent there is a chance to stack your opponant some garbage to buy 1-2 turns, and often you only need 1-2 turns to swing FTW.

5) Really, I would like to ask for some more oppinions about the inclusion of green for muscle sliver, and wether its really worth a whole color.

Its worth it. 8 Muscle Slivers really is too good to pass up and Harmonic is the shit out of the board.

If you want to run only U/W then you should play Talon Sliver to clog up the board against aggro.

6) If I were to want more creature removal, what should I run besides my Swords to Plowshares?

I don't think you want EE in this deck, as you usually can't afford to pop it for 2 (thus killing the majority of your slivers). Condemn has worked well for me in an aggro-heavy environment, and I imagine it would be better than judge unworthy. You could always run echoing truth or repeal as well, though they seem subpar.

MattH

06-10-2007, 11:11 AM

If anyone cares, I have a report (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33339.0) up wherein I played a similar Sliver deck.

Pinder

06-11-2007, 01:06 AM

That certainly was an interesting list. How helpful were the Hibernations, overall? And what made you decide to go with the one maindeck Harmonic?

I'm slightly interested in the Keep Watch comment at the end, though. It seems that if we're winning, it helps us win by playing it on our turn, and if we're losing, it helps us refill by playing it when our opponents attack. Ultimately though, it might end up being too situational, and it suffers from the same dilemma the deck already has: you need lots of creatures for it to be really good.

Another thought along the same lines I had though, was whether or not Thirst for Knowledge could possibly find a home in here. Now, hear me out. With the inclusion of Vials, we actually have something to pitch, even. That alone probably isn't enough, but it's there. Not to be discounted, though, is that fact that it's a spell that lets us see 3 cards deep, and most importantly at instant speed. And being able to filter the chaff from the top via TfK might not be such a bad idea, either. Bad Brainstorm? Just use a TfK afterwards to get rid of two turns worth of shitty land draws. And if we try including Top alongside it, it would give us more (although admittedly still few) artifacts to discard to it, too. Strictly speaking, if we had a top out, we could always use top to draw in response to a TfK to make sure that you have an artifact to discard (and keep all 3 of the top cards, actually). And if we board in Needles, it just gets better. It does cost 3 mana, which might be a problem, but I think it might warrant some testing. Maybe a list with Top replacing 3 of the Portent and perhaps a 19th land to help fight mana screw?

edit: Actually, Perilous Research looks like it might be halfway decent, too. The saccing a permanent might end up being to steep, but it is 2 cards for 2 mana at instant speed.

MattH

06-11-2007, 01:33 AM

The Hibernations' ability only came up once, in the UW Fish match, when a 3/3 Hibernation was blocked by a Serra Avenger and stacked+jumped. However, it WAS still useful as a warm body, and specifically a 2/2 one. I would hesitate to drop that slot to a smaller sliver, and I am VERY sure it should remain some kind of sliver.

I wanted the maindeck Harmonic because I wanted a MD way to kill an artifact or enchantment. With a solid cantrip base (and fetchlands), a 1-of can show up way more often than statistics would suggest, so there's really a big difference between having 1 out and 0 outs in your blue deck.

Bongo

06-11-2007, 05:44 AM

I'm testing a fairly unusual Sliver variant at the time that I'd like to discuss:

The build seems crazy and is still in beta-testing, but let me explain.
The biggest change from the standard lists is the inclusion of Hibernation Sliver, Vial, Petal and Thirst of Knowledge instead of the cantrips.

In a 4-color build with Hibernation Sliver (which I found to be quite useful), the color fixing aspect of Vial plays an integral role. The instant-speed uncounterability, coupled with some neat combat tricks, is a nice bonus. Because of Hibernation Sliver, Vial gets used quite often. I also have a higher number of Slivers than in other builds to use Vial more effectively.

Lotus Petal is there for three reasons: first to power out a 2cc Sliver on the first turn, second to help with the mana requirements, and third to provide enough fodder for Thirst.
There are only 15 "real" lands in there, but again, Vial helps a lot in this departement. 2 lands in play are sufficient most of the time.

Thirst of Knowledge is there to discard extra copies of Vial and Petal in the late-game while drawing you 3 fresh cards. When I played with the standard builds, I often wished for some kind of a card-advantage engine.

The list is still very rough and untested in tournaments. If you tear this thing apart, please do so with sound reasoning.

kicks_422

06-11-2007, 06:29 AM

The thing that stands out to me the most from your list is the lack of removal. In your (I assume) limited tesing, have you ever missed it? I just think that Legacy is such a creature-dominated format (is it?) that removal is kind of needed in an aggro-control deck.

Maverick676

06-11-2007, 04:20 PM

The list looks interesting. Thirst could be good, but lotus petal seems totally out of place, powering out a 2cc sliver turn one really isn't that important. Could this slot maybe be chrome mox or seat of the synod instead? Also I never found hibernation to be that great, maybe use metallic sliver instead to better support thirst. Or possibly add sensei's top.

Although I think that trying to add card advantage to this deck is a mistake. Slivers thrives on virtual card advantage by making your opponents creatures and removal irrelevant. I don't mean to stifle development here, but this list is about as good as it will get in my opinion. Unless a new card is printed that totally revolutionizes slivers it will stay the way it is for quite a while. The only real testing that remains to really be done is with top/counterbalance and whether or not vial is really worth being in the deck. The black splash has always been underwhelming for me, and I have found that hibernation is just not worth splashing a fourth color for. Engineered plague is usually what black adds most to alot of decks, but in this case the goblins matchup is already great so black really won't add anything to this deck that it actually needs.

MattH

06-11-2007, 08:05 PM

Cutting lands in order to fit in 3cc spells seems doomed to failure, but I wish you the best of luck. Let us know how it turns out.

Volt

06-11-2007, 11:05 PM

.

Maverick676

06-11-2007, 11:12 PM

This looks like a really strong list, but wouldn't you rather have 4 portent 2 serum visions?

Kronicler

06-12-2007, 02:02 AM

I like the look of that list, and have been generally moving in that direction, but I feel like the inclusion of vial only makes counterspells better. Also, we gotta think about which matchups we are improving here. What match %s are actually better than with the old list? I mean, just by sticking 2 talon slivers in the "personal choice" slots in the old list we noticably improved our thresh matchup, our gobos matchup (I had it at almost 90% at 1 point), and our matchup against any aggro deck, quite a lot when you think of the actual legacy metagame. What does this list offer over that?

Kronicler

Maverick676

06-12-2007, 04:04 AM

The only matchup where talon is better than vial seems to be goblins. Against thresh vial ups the matchup percentage by about the same amount as talon in my experience.

Pinder

06-12-2007, 01:03 PM

What does this list offer over that?
Kronicler

Resistance to counterspells, basically. Having Talon against Thresh is nice and all, but being able to completely dodge their countermagic is invaluable. This deck needs to have certain slivers stick to the table in order for it to be preforming at it's best, and Vial helps with that against Aggro-Control (and it helps dodge Mage, too). I will agree that it seems like Vial would just help make counterspell better by letting us leave mana open and all, but if I had to choose one or the other at this point, I would choose Vial. Plus, if I have two mana open and a vial at 2, odds are I'm probably going to be dropping two slivers that turn, rather than waiting around to counter stuff. Even if those slivers can't attack, they'll likely have an impact on the board either way through sharing their +1/+1's or their flying with the dudes already there.

edit: And Volt, how much has dropping to 17 land hurt? Is it helped by the additional cantripping (and to a lesser extent by Vial)?

p.s. I still have your Extracts, btw. I'll mail them to you if I can stop forgetting to.

xsockmonkeyx

06-13-2007, 02:55 AM

our gobos matchup (I had it at almost 90% at 1 point)

Really, 90%? If you are getting numbers like that then I kind of have to question your testing techniques. I mean, the matchup is good but not THAT good.

Is there anything else that you can attribute those results too?

Pinder

06-13-2007, 02:59 AM

Is there anything else that you can attribute those results too?

His testing partner, Twinkles, is a lab monkey from a institute researching a formula for limb regrowth.

edit post # 1,234! Whoa!

Volt

06-13-2007, 12:53 PM

.

Kronicler

06-13-2007, 02:10 PM

Really, 90%? If you are getting numbers like that then I kind of have to question your testing techniques. I mean, the matchup is good but not THAT good.

Is there anything else that you can attribute those results too?

The 90% matchup occured when I tried running 3 Talon Slivers as well as "the perfect 19". I dropped all my Counterspells to fit the Talons in. I didn't test extensively, only 10 games, so luck could have impacted testing more than usual, but I was trouncing my playtest partner.

Kronicler

xsockmonkeyx

06-13-2007, 10:07 PM

:/ Maybe you should switch decks with your partner after 5 or so games. This way you eliminate variables like a player's skill, familiarity with a deck. Also, losing nine out of ten games isnt fun.

Volt

06-20-2007, 04:03 PM

.

Derklord

06-21-2007, 09:10 AM

Update: I've been liking the additional cantrips. Once again, though, i'm finding I don't really care for the Aether Vials. They were great for the Fishy metagame in Columbus, but seem subpar for a "normal" metagame. At this point, I think I'm only going to recommend them for metagames where you expect to see a LOT of Thresh, Fish, and/or Landstill. What do you guys think?
Well, Vial is surely a metagame card, but one that improves many of our MUs. Vial is not just a powerhouse against counters, but also against creature-based decks (via combat tricks) and land destrucion.
So Vial might be the card for metagames that aren't full of combo.

Another thing to consider... How about maindeck Spell Snares, ala Bardo's new Thresh list? I've been a proponent of Spell Snare for quite a while, although I haven't proposed it as a maindeck choice (outside of GPT Columbus) until now. It probably isn't quite as amazing now as it was in Columbus, but I think it's still pretty amazing. Basically, it's good against almost everything except Goblins. Without Vials Spell Snare > Counterspell. With Vials, imo it'd depend on the metagame.
I played Spell Snares before I added the Vials and I liked them a lot.

xsockmonkeyx

06-21-2007, 10:42 AM

Update: I've been liking the additional cantrips. Once again, though, i'm finding I don't really care for the Aether Vials. They were great for the Fishy metagame in Columbus, but seem subpar for a "normal" metagame. At this point, I think I'm only going to recommend them for metagames where you expect to see a LOT of Thresh, Fish, and/or Landstill. What do you guys think?

Another thing to consider... How about maindeck Spell Snares, ala Bardo's new Thresh list? I've been a proponent of Spell Snare for quite a while, although I haven't proposed it as a maindeck choice (outside of GPT Columbus) until now. It probably isn't quite as amazing now as it was in Columbus, but I think it's still pretty amazing. Basically, it's good against almost everything except Goblins.

EDIT: Btw, I've made a few changes to the opening post.

I think you are spot on. Aether Vial is good in this deck, but not in this meta. Im also thinking Spell Snare is good against the decks running around right now with the exception of Goblins.

The breakdown for the list in the opening post is excellent.

plus_ten

06-25-2007, 07:14 AM

Hey. Addy from Aus (wonder if the locals are actually reading this...)

Being trying to get this deck together for ages... went for a small tournament on the weekends, but with subpar lands (damn slow ebay postage), fetch, lotus petal n savannah to replace 3 tundras...

I found 19 Slivers too few, and it was very difficult to put on pressure after mass-removal. With the exception of combo, the deck gets better the more Slivers it contains. Duress and Stifle from the board should help against various forms of combo. I don't have Meddling Mage in my board, but it is an useful option to supplement Duress.

Am I the only one who likes Hibernation?

Pinder

06-25-2007, 07:01 PM

I too have found TfK lacking. Of course, I didn't have as many artifacts as you did, but still, it's not that great.

Am I the only one who likes Hibernation?

You're not the only one who likes the idea behind Hibernation, that's for sure. The main problem I have is trying to fit the damn guy in. Adding a fourth color aside, it's just tough to find room for him. The fact that he's black just makes things harder.

And I can't help but feel that, without some way to offset the lifeloss, all that bouncing can add up. I mean, you bounce five guys and you've already lost half your life. With Vial especially, and since you seem to have an increased sliver count anyway, what about trying to fit Essence into your list?

I also would get rid of the one Harmonic main. I mean, he's good and all, but really you just bring him in against specific things for G2.

Another thing I noticed was that you only run 4 brainstorm as your entire draw/cantrip base. Has this been a problem at all? I mean, I wouldn't want to drop below 8 or so.

I also disagree with Volt on Vial for the time being. It's not quite as good as it is in a heavy Fish meta, but it's still surprisingly good. Sometimes it even sped up my kill by as much as a full turn. Either way, though, I could see that slot just as easily handed off to Counterspell or Spell Snare, I suppose. Possibly even SDT?

Patoon

06-26-2007, 05:26 AM

Hey. Addy from Aus (wonder if the locals are actually reading this...)

Being trying to get this deck together for ages... went for a small tournament on the weekends, but with subpar lands (damn slow ebay postage), fetch, lotus petal n savannah to replace 3 tundras...

smashed a subpar goblins, but was utterly overrun by UWB Landstill running humility and manlands... forced my force on the humility in round 1, n got it in when i had no answers in round 2... =(

any ideas? i guess i wasnt prepared for enchantment hate, but running slivers against EE/Humility/Wrath seem way too hard...

also, looking at the other Countersliver build, running 4 vials n hibernation, would that be a better way to go against the mass destruction hate?

Need a bit of advice plz...

Hey addy i was the guy who beat you with landstill it was actually UWg not UWb, but that is neither here nor there. I have been involved with this deck for quite a while, i have actually played it myself at gg's, can you post the deck list that you ran and we will go from there to address its flaws. I think its a possibility that your sideboard let you down in our games, and that you didnt have the counters to stop my mass removal, but lets see your list first

xsockmonkeyx

06-26-2007, 05:30 AM

I think its a possibility that your sideboard let you down in our games, and that you didnt have the counters to stop my mass removal, but lets see your list first

Yes, what does your list look like?

plus_ten

06-26-2007, 08:21 AM

lol... I thought the locals would read it...

I guess its cool. I'm planning to change the Sliver build though, and definitely Krosan Grips to take Humility.

I run the same MD as the primer (except that subpar lands), 6 U-blasts, 1 Meddling, 2 Stifles, 2 Harmonic, 2 Victual and 1 Essence. That s what I get for slow-buying on ebay and looking to face RDWs and burns... The Stifles went in to replace my 2 Counterspells after the Stifles utterly crushed the Goblins. I also ran 3 Plated to fit 2 Stifles (over 1 Plated and 1 Counterspell), because I always see goblins running burn.

Either way, I dont think the primer deck can beat on Landstill either, as Volt noted, because mounting a 6 turn kill through counters and Wrath is very unlikely.

Oh well... see how we go next time... =P

Hello plus ten, and Welcome to The Source!

Please read the Forum Rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=24) and FAQ for New Members (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468) before you continue posting. There are strict guidelines on grammar and spelling on this site, please familiarize yourself with them.

~Nightmare

Volt

06-26-2007, 01:14 PM

.

Patoon

06-26-2007, 07:20 PM

I think you were unlucky with your sideboard, or rather than unlucky chose wrong for the meta that arrived. I believe when facing control decks you need to play with a version similar to the one being finalised before the flash fiasco. It included main deck counterspells and sideboard pithing needles, i think also the inclusion of aether vial would assist the match up.

In our match offend you were holding stifles which did not help you much when i was casting wrath. I think the list with 2 main deck counterspells and 2 more in the board would help this short coming. Also pithing needles in the board would help drastically as there are so many targets in landstill (factories, monastries, EE, etc). So i would say make room for at least 3 in the board. Finally i think possibly 2 main deck aether vials like some of the current lists have been sporting

I keep reading all these lists you guys are putting up and would like to say Thanks! Its been prety helpfull.

I've been progressing from a pure agro sliver deck (36 slivers including like 11 onedrops and the legion at one point) to leaning more and more toward a countersliver build like the ones you guys have.

There's one thing I just can't understand....

do you realy have enough land?

My deck was at 21 lands for a while and after i put in the 4 brainstorms i went down to 20 lands, figuring it would be fine, but found that I kept coming up short on lands. So I had to go back to 21.

For cantrips you guys have 4 portents that i havent yet put into my deck instead of 4 of my lands.... does that realy balance out?

Frankly i'm finding Brainstorms a little underwhelming (maybe i'm just not using them correctly), so i'm hesitant to put a worser version of it in instead of the "extra" lands i have. Ofcourse my manabase is still white centric instead of blue centric like yours are is, so maybe that's part of my problem.

Volt

07-02-2007, 12:28 PM

.

RoddyVR

07-02-2007, 02:12 PM

thanks for the quick answer Volt. in theory i agree with that logic, but in practice i keep finding myself short on mana (atleast till i run out of cards in hand...)
i'll post my deck, though its in a consntant state of "evolution" as i aquire more and more of the manabase that i want for it, every once in a while trying to dive heavily into the "Counter" part of CounterSliver, but usualy heading back to the pure sliver hoard approach cause i dont have the Force of Wills.
my deck as it was last time i played it:

SB:
2 harmonic
2 darkheart
3 tormod's crypt
and the rest i never used yesterday, party cause i'd been hoping to borrow 4 force of wills to put in with 4 counterspells to have "answers" to the stuff people sided in against a sliver horde.

after yesterday's tournament i traded the away the 2 volcanics for and have replaced them with a tundra (yay for winning yesterday), a scrubland and 2 more heaths.

Volt

07-02-2007, 03:31 PM

.

RoddyVR

07-02-2007, 03:42 PM

realy? you think the pools are worse then the cities?
i've been systematicaly cutting out more and more cities as i've been getting more duals and fetches.

i actualy like the pools, i rarely have hands of 2 pools and no other land, and a hand of a pool and a fetch is perfectly playable (especialy now that i've gotten my first tundra). the cradle is one of the two i used to have to be able to abuse it for first the Sliver Queen's ability, then later the Overlords and more recently the Enshrined Memories, but you're probably right, its time to let it go.
it is nice as a 3rd land, cause i can cast a plated turn one, a crystalline turn 2, and then 2 muscle/sinews on turn 3 (cause the cradle will give 2 or 3 mana depending on when tapped)

if i replace the 4 pools with Portents and the city with a couple basic lands i'll baiscaly have the mana base you guys run (with slight color differnces, but the dual/fetch/basic ratios prety close)

that's why i was wandering if you ever have problems not having enough land, cuase as far as i can tell, you guys have replaced 4 of my lands with 4 more cantrips and seem happy with it.

Volt

07-02-2007, 04:03 PM

.

xsockmonkeyx

07-02-2007, 04:34 PM

thanks for the quick answer Volt. in theory i agree with that logic, but in practice i keep finding myself short on mana (atleast till i run out of cards in hand...)
i'll post my deck, though its in a consntant state of "evolution" as i aquire more and more of the manabase that i want for it, every once in a while trying to dive heavily into the "Counter" part of CounterSliver, but usualy heading back to the pure sliver hoard approach cause i dont have the Force of Wills.
my deck as it was last time i played it:

SB:
2 harmonic
2 darkheart
3 tormod's crypt
and the rest i never used yesterday, party cause i'd been hoping to borrow 4 force of wills to put in with 4 counterspells to have "answers" to the stuff people sided in against a sliver horde.

after yesterday's tournament i traded the away the 2 volcanics for and have replaced them with a tundra (yay for winning yesterday), a scrubland and 2 more heaths.

First off, lose the Legion, its definitlely not worth it especially with such an unoptimized mana base.

You should really drop a color or two. If you must run >3 for some reason then go WUgb and try Hibernation Slivers. Try a third Vial if you are going to stretch your manabase this thin.

City>>>Pool if you cant get enough duals and have to play gold lands.

Nihil Credo

07-02-2007, 11:09 PM

Do you think it might be a good idea for Roddy to turn his build more 'aggroish' by using the Red mana for 4-7 pieces of burn, and perhaps Cautery Sliver? The additional reach provided could compensate for the lack of countermagic protection, kind of like a slower Red Death. The aggro approach would also make City of Brass's drawback less relevant.

godryk

07-03-2007, 12:27 PM

I've been trying to fit Talon Sliver in the deck since my meta is mainly aggro and some control, but combo is rarely played (sometimes some Alluren or Solidarity), so SB Meddling Mage is more than enough. My current list is:

I'm running a 2/2 split of Talon and Winged, and it's being nice to me, 3 Winged seemed too much to me because you hate to draw the second one. I really like Talon, and it's nice in an aggro meta, i'd rather have a lonely Talon than a lonely Winged.

Spell Snare is good only against certain decks like Threshold and suicide. It's also nice to counter an EE for 2 or Powder Keg. Anyway I may cut one to make room for the 18th land (a forest or Heath).

Finally, I highly recommend Vedalken Shackles against random aggro, specially if they don't run Wasteland, although pithing needle on wasteland helps a lot.

xsockmonkeyx

07-03-2007, 12:33 PM

Welcome to the Source!

@ List: looks solid. The thing about this deck is that it is flexible to a certain extent and can be tweaked to fit different metas should you need it. It looks like you have good justification for all of your changes although I think i would still miss Winged #3.

Best of luck to you.

Nightmare

07-11-2007, 12:58 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140136667385

Belgareth

07-11-2007, 01:08 PM

Those are sweet , I wish they would actually re-do those instead of people having to rely on rare 1's that shouldn't have existed.

Volt

07-11-2007, 01:20 PM

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LGD

07-26-2007, 02:52 AM

I know this has been covered before but the general consensus is still that Ensnare is the best tech in the mirror match, correct? I'm asking because I'm curious if anyone has either any epic new tech to share or a way to make the mirror match anything besides totally horrific.

Pinder

07-26-2007, 03:31 AM

I know this has been covered before but the general consensus is still that Ensnare is the best tech in the mirror match, correct? I'm asking because I'm curious if anyone has either any epic new tech to share or a way to make the mirror match anything besides totally horrific.

As far as I can tell, yeah. Another thought to think about is, if for some reason God hates you and you actually see the mirror with this thing, Screeching Sliver. I played the mirror in Columbus, and the game goes reaaaaaaaally long. If you had 1 or 2 of these in the board you could easily go EOT Vial-> Screeching -> Mill your opponent for 7-10 cards at the end of every one of their turns. This should deck them pretty quick. Hell, if you time it right you can deck them on the spot. Of course, if not they would start milling you to, but if you can get ahead in the sliver count or the millfest, you can win. It's just a thought.

For everyone out there running black, though, I will give a ringing endorsement to Cover of Darkness. If you can get that bad boy to stick, you get unblockable creatures, as well as the ability to block with your Hibernations if need be. Of course, if you just drop this late game with a ton of slivers on the table after sculpting a hand full of counter backup, you'll likely just win the game right there.

godryk

07-26-2007, 09:22 AM

Hum, the mirror is a really tough matchup. Besides being lucky with Fow/Spell Snare/Daze, I think that he who can put more slivers into play usually wins.

Like most of my anti-aggro SB cards target like Shackles or Threads, I very often find myself siding in as much slivers as I can, having more Slivers will give us a chance (specially when we have 16 muscle slivers involved!!).

Anyway Spell snare has proven to be a great defense in the current meta.

I've also changed my mana list and gone for the 18th land (I used to play 17), and I'm not sure which additional land to choose. I'm with:

I'm currently playing a forest, wich has been strong against land denial (I know it isn't much necesary). Wich one do you prefer?

Lich

07-26-2007, 10:06 AM

I've never played this deck, but I was reading the thread, and notice you're talking about the mirror. Has anyone considered Dormant Sliver as a sideboard card? In conjunction with Hibernation Sliver and Crystalline Sliver, it means your opponents can never attack again, and you cantrip every time you play it. Of course, your opponents will be cantripping too, but in conjunction with Aether Vial, it seems like a hard lock against the mirror.

Volt

07-26-2007, 12:06 PM

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ninjabear

07-27-2007, 08:03 AM

This deck is screaming for some card that allows to draw.

My guess is that Standstill is a good choice for that, as you can put creatures into play via Aether Vial and you have a full counter package to back you up. Though I always felt that Standstill is a "win-more" card, as you have to play it when the table is favorable to you.

Fact or Fiction and Deep Analysis are also pretty good draw (but mana intensive) spells. Specially Fact or Fiction as you won't be using your mana in many turns (putting creatures into play with the vial and without countering things).

kicks_422

07-27-2007, 09:45 AM

If they print an Ophidian Sliver within 2-3cc, that would be nice. However, as the deck stands, the 1cc cantrips in the deck are really all that could be fitted in.

Basically, ported from Meathooks. I feel that because Meathooks is ported from thresh, the deck doesnt need emphasis on cantrips (which are used to fill the grave for thresh). So I just filled the utility/disruption slots with those.

Round 1 vs Burn: win/2-1
First match was tight, dropped me to 5 when he is 1 swing from death. He hits with a bolt followed by a Fireblast, which i Forced. Pure luck there. If he Blasted first, it would've been gg for me.

Second match was 3 Price of Progress and 2 Sweepers, I lost it good.

Third match was really unfair as he got really mana flooded, and I dropped a Darkheart along with the hive.

Round 2 vs Generic Thresh: lost/1-2
First match was really quick. I extirpated both mages and Goyfs early on thanks to a bad Mental Note and a good counter. Had around 3 lands all match and I wasted his trop for a long mana screw. Hard casted everything on 2 lands, (except Fow, of course) with a Pith'd Vial doing nothing.

Second match was... I really hated it. Two goyfs came down quick. I did a good attack with an extirpate on the only creature in both yards (a goose) and killed both goyfs. Then it was a slow stand-off against Mystics, until an EE (WTF!?) hits the table. Should I have just swung in with the slivers? Had 6 on board, but small ones (1 Pumper and a Plated to boot)

Third match was a similar deal. Same EE hits the table wipes a crap load, all due to a Sliver-goyf standoff. Lost as 2 Mystics overran a plated and a crystalline =(.

Round 3 vs Bw semi-sui Land-destruction: lost/1-2
First match: Easy. Hive drops down n beats over 3 utility creatures. Vial'd in a final sinew for 2 unblocked slivers to deal the last 2. This was the only match when I had a good useable vial.

Second Match: 3 Lands got Wasted, Sinked (sunk if u want the right grammar) and Vindicated. I lost while holding 3 muscles and a Winged as a plated and a crystalline got overrun. No vials, no lands =(.

Third Match: A Plague and a heap of destruction/edicts meant gg for me. A late crystalline did nothing except give an extra turn against a looming shade.

Well.. 6 ppl, 3 rounds.. Thresh, as the deck-of-choice atm, is obvious a bad match-up, esp since they printed the almost-broken goyf (what's with a 2cc 4/5!?). And MU against a fast Land-destruction (is LD land-destruction or lock-down?) for a mana hungry deck is just =(.

As patoon told me some time ago, CounterSlivers was ported from thresh to take down goblins (no arguments there). As combo rises, goblins are on a decline (sort-of). Also, the efficiency of that damned goyf seem way too good compared to the countersliver synergy. And now, thresh gets a massive boost against its aggro nemesis. So I think it's time some changes are made to boost some MUs?

I obvious made a poor attempt at a change there. Too much utility, not enough stack control (Meathooks had 4 great snipers in StP to my 4 subpar ones). I really regret taking the Dazes out.

The next legacy is in a month. Any suggestions on changes to the deck? Or perhaps revert it to the original meathooks? I have never played the original meathooks, so I cant say whether it d be good or bad in those match-ups. And I definitely do NOT want to revert CounterSlivers back to Thresh, that just defeats the purpose of us being here =P.

Because of the small legacy following down-under, there is going to be huge shifts in the meta every month, so any thoughts on a generic SB?

Thanks beforehand.

PS. in the slim chance that anyone doesnt know...
http://www.magic-league.com/deck/34799/uwb_slivers.html#UWB%20Slivers27649
a pair of Counterslivers took top 2 at some tournament. I guess I should've net-decked one of them. lol.

Volt

07-29-2007, 12:05 PM

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tpnp

07-30-2007, 11:04 AM

Here's my list that I ran to Top 8 this past weekend at Monster Den in MN, 43 people total:

Sideboard:
3x Krosan Grip - in the past, Deed was played heavily at Monster Den
2x Harmonic Sliver - a couple of Stax varients tend to show up
3x Engineered Explosives - anti-Empty the Warrens
4x Meddling Mage - self explanitory
3x Worship - meta-game slot, it was either this or Chill

I was always happy to see the Talon Sliver, especially with combat tricks involving Vial. I won against Aluren, UG Madness, WUB Fish and UGwr Thresh. My two loses were Burn (in the swiss) and Death and Taxes (top 8 ). I was somewhat disappointed with my board, mainly because I sided in Worship almost every game and barely touched the rest.

If you want a detail report, I'll see if I can remember the specifics.

zulander

07-30-2007, 11:10 AM

How has Hibernation Sliver been for you? IMO its not a very good card when you dont have the black mana to cast it anywhere in your deck :P
Psht, I meant harmonic sliver!

xsockmonkeyx

07-30-2007, 11:20 AM

If you want a detail report, I'll see if I can remember the specifics.

Yes, plz. Especially the Fish, Madness and Aluren matchups.

Psht, I meant harmonic sliver!

Sure you did :wink:

Volt

07-30-2007, 12:11 PM

.

Pinder

07-30-2007, 12:41 PM

So, I guess I'm throwing my arms up in the air and saying "You're right! AEther Vial belongs in the deck."

As a 2-of.

Giles

07-30-2007, 07:50 PM

As a 2-of.

Want to know anther good 2-of?

Eternal Dragon.

Volt

07-30-2007, 08:09 PM

.

frogboy

07-30-2007, 08:18 PM

It seems like Vial lets you have three slivers in play by turn three, and one of them (crystalline sliver) is uncounterable. It's probably pretty good.

Eternal Dragon happens to be really good against other midrange decks that don't play Swords to Plowshares, but that is basically only UGR Threshold, and only if they have a threat-light draw. I would've annihilated Noah if I had drawn Fledgling Dragon prior to turn thirty.

Pinder

07-30-2007, 08:47 PM

Want to know anther good 2-of?

Eternal Dragon.

Everyone knows that Eternal Dragon is most effective as a 1-of, stupid.

It seems like Vial lets you have three slivers in play by turn three, and one of them (crystalline sliver) is uncounterable. It's probably pretty good.

Eternal Dragon happens to be really good against other midrange decks that don't play Swords to Plowshares, but that is basically only UGR Threshold, and only if they have a threat-light draw. I would've annihilated Noah if I had drawn Fledgling Dragon prior to turn thirty.

I agree on both points. And early Vial lets you get out of the gate a lot faster against most decks, and it provides an invaluable uncounterability against Fish and Thresh, and aslo against heavier control decks as well. And it never hurts to have a 1 colorless Force bait on the first turn. 1 mana Hymns are good, I hear. I like it almost enough to bump it up to a 3-of to see it earlier more often, but it's such a horrible mid-to-lategame topdeck that I don't ever want to see it past the early game. I think for now, I'll leave it as a 2-of.

And yeah, that matchup against Noah was a joke. A hilarious joke. You probably should have won, but that's just the way it goes, I guess.

frogboy

07-30-2007, 08:54 PM

I like it almost enough to bump it up to a 3-of to see it earlier more often, but it's such a horrible mid-to-lategame topdeck that I don't ever want to see it past the early game. I think for now, I'll leave it as a 2-of.

is this a joke? Granted the double Vial draw isn't as good as it is in Goblins, but don't you pretty much always want to Vial go the first turn?

And yeah, that matchup against Noah was a joke. A hilarious joke. You probably should have won, but that's just the way it goes, I guess.

Eh, the matchup is basically a coin flip, but in game one his deck really wanted him to win and in game two my deck really wanted me to lose. I actually drew more land than exist in my deck via the magic of Brainstorm.

Filipinho

07-30-2007, 11:03 PM

What % of the meta is Thresh and Fish? Enough to make Vial worthy? Also almost every deck plays at least a couple of Pithing Needle SB...
What would you drop?
The vial addition brings back the question about off color slivers. They become viable?

Pinder

07-30-2007, 11:34 PM

is this a joke? Granted the double Vial draw isn't as good as it is in Goblins, but don't you pretty much always want to Vial go the first turn?

I know, I love to see it on the first turn, but on the flipside I hate seeing it any time past turn 5 or so. After that it's just too slow. It has saved my ass when I was light on lands before, but so far in my experience 2 (alongside cantripping) is enough to make sure that I see it within the first couple of turns of the game pretty consistently. Maybe I'm just a lucksack, but I do.

Eh, the matchup is basically a coin flip, but in game one his deck really wanted him to win and in game two my deck really wanted me to lose. I actually drew more land than exist in my deck via the magic of Brainstorm.

I know how you feel. I've ended games with 10 land in play before. You know how many non-fetch lands we play? Ten.

What % of the meta is Thresh and Fish? Enough to make Vial worthy? Also almost every deck plays at least a couple of Pithing Needle SB...
What would you drop?

Well, at the Batcave, roughly 50% of the meta was Thresh, Fish, or Slivers, so Vial was a great call there. It really just depends on how much countermagic you tend to see in your meta.

The vial addition brings back the question about off color slivers. They become viable?

No. The only sliver I would consider splashing for anyway is the long-discussed Hibernation (and maybe Darkheart, because of it's utter house-i-ness), and even then, my beef with Hibernation has never really been with it's mana cost (splashing come Underground Seas isn't really that hard), it's that it hasn't really been that spectacular, and the lifeloss really does add up in a deck without any lifegain.

frogboy

07-31-2007, 12:16 AM

so far in my experience 2 (alongside cantripping) is enough to make sure that I see it within the first couple of turns of the game pretty consistently. Maybe I'm just a lucksack, but I do.

1. you're lucksaccing, really hard.

2. you want to play it on turn one anyway.

3. brainstorm yo.

Curby

07-31-2007, 07:20 AM

I notice decklists as late as a few pages ago still list Serum Visions over Portent. Part of my confusion over its enduring popularity stems from not knowing how the card exactly works. Do you Scry before or after drawing a card? I think you draw first, but the M:TG Comprehensive Rules don't say which and the card on wizards.com has no official rulings.

It seems that one of the reasons Portent is preferred over Serum Visions is because the first allows you to look at three cards and choose one, but the Serum Visions at most lets you look at two cards. If Scry occurs after drawing, you might be drawing a useless card (it is an unknown). With Portent, you can choose the best of three known cards.

In that sense, Serum Visions doesn't give you foresight as deeply into your deck. On the other hand, the ability to get rid of unwanted cards during the Scry process is useful when you don't have a fetchland to shuffle away known-bad cards.

Sorry if this seems like rambling. I'm trying to share my thought process, in the hopes that others can comment on whether this explains the (alleged) superiority of Portent over Serum Visions. Thanks. =)

kicks_422

07-31-2007, 08:06 AM

You draw first with Serum Visions before scrying.

The advantages of Serum Visions over Portent and vice versa are situational, and it largely depends on your personal preference.

Portent allows you to dig really deep or lets you shuffle away three bad draws, but the draw is delayed (doesn't matter when you're digging for counterspells, does matter when you're trying to draw into land.) As an added bonus, you can use Portent on your opponent to put bad cards on top of their library. With Portent though, if 2 cards are bad and one is good, you'll sometimes be forced to draw those 2 bad cards later just to get that one good card.

Serum Visions on the other hand allows you to draw the card right away, whatever it is, and the scry abiltiy is really valuable in a deck running less land (better than the random shuffle you get from Portent).

As you can see, Portent gets a lot of advantages over Serum Visions. I'm one of the few knuckleheads who still run SV over Portent though, just because I'm very unlucky with Portent.

Curby

07-31-2007, 09:11 AM

Portent allows you to dig really deep or lets you shuffle away three bad draws, but the draw is delayed (doesn't matter when you're digging for counterspells, does matter when you're trying to draw into land.)

Silly me, I forgot that you can choose to shuffle with Portent. Working alone, I guess Visions is better when there's a good topdeck followed by two bad cards. You can grab the good one and Scry the crap away. With Portent, you'd have to choose between losing the nice top card to a shuffle, or grabbing the nice one and suffering through two bad draws. However, if all three are good or all three are bad, Portent is better. You could stack and draw the goodies or throw everything away in a shuffle.

Of course, you mention that Visions works better when searching for land or other "help me now" cards, and all bets are off when you can shuffle with a fetchland anyway. Sigh, magic's so complex. =P

tpnp

07-31-2007, 09:29 AM

Personally, I really love Portent in this deck over Serum Visions. I was never sad to see it in any of my matches this past Saturday (even though my list only has 2).

godryk

07-31-2007, 11:06 AM

I used to be a huge fan of Serum Visions, which is actually much better when you're digging for lands in the first few turns. When Hannifish became popular Serum Visions was largely choosen as second cantrip in most of aggrocontrol decks. Now I found myself adding an extra land and playing a better card. I hated topdecking SV but I don't mind topdecking Portent at all.

By the way, Aether Vial might be good, but it's just not needed.

tpnp

07-31-2007, 12:06 PM

By the way, Aether Vial might be good, but it's just not needed.
To each his/her own then. I thought Vial was fantastic and it let me play a lot of combat tricks with my opponents (like instant-speed Crystalline in response to a Bolt or StP; or Talon Sliver for First Strike lovin' when my opponent attacks).

I won't take out the three Vials I have in my build until they prove me wrong in a match up.

Pinder

07-31-2007, 01:51 PM

In most ways Serum Visions and Portent are similar enough that the differences are negligible, but there are a couple of things that make me like Portent better:

1. You get more choices and information. Sure, you don't get to draw the card right away, but most often the thing I put on top is a Brainstorm, Daze, FoW, Swords, or some other instant speed card that I plan on using during my opponent's turn anyway. Nabbing an answer during my opponent's turn, as well as setting up my next draw during my turn is pretty sexy. Sometimes you get 2 crap cards and 1 good card and have to sit through 2 turns of bad draws, but even then I usually shuffle unless the good card is something worth 2 turns of bad draws.

2. You can target your opponent with Portent. A lot of times this doesn't really com up, because I'm playing Portent on myself to find things, but every now and then being able to mess with your opponent's draws becomes highly relevant. You can buy yourself around 2 full turns against your opponent with a decent Portent, and in the event that they have 2-3 sexy cards coming up, make them shuffle and take your chances. Also, I've used Portent to kill someone with their own Dark Confidant before. That's a really good feeling.

godryk

08-01-2007, 11:46 AM

Isn't anybody going to the GenCon? In that case, has anybody thought of running Counterslivers? I think it is time to Counterslivers to go and try to do something important in a big tournament.

Volt

08-01-2007, 12:12 PM

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Pinder

08-01-2007, 12:58 PM

I don't think anyone east of the Rockies takes Countersliver even remotely seriously.

Yeah, and I Day2'd Columbus with it. But oh well. Bottom line, I'm not flying out to GenCon for oversized Legacy staples. Sorry, but 'really big Force of Will' just isn't worth a plane ticket, IMO.

tpnp

08-01-2007, 03:55 PM

I don't think anyone east of the Rockies takes Countersliver even remotely seriously.
I'm technically east of the Rockies, but I haven't put a ton of serious play into the deck :( Just a couple local weekly tournies and that top 8 from this last weekend.

Yes, plz. Especially the Fish, Madness and Aluren matchups.
I don't remember the specific details of each of them, but I do remember parts here and there.

The first game against Aluren, I Dazed his 2nd turn Wall of Roots and that pretty much stole his tempo to combo off the rest of the game. I sided in Meddling Mages and forgot what I took out for games two and three. The second game I went with the same plan by keeping him off his walls for a few turns while getting Slivers and a Meddling Mage (named Aluren) into play but then I didn't have a counter for his Deed that was sided in (at least, I think it was sided in). From there I couldn't contain him and he got the Raven Familiar/Cavern Harpy engine going while I had nothing of importance in hand. Game three he went for a turn 4 Deed and I had to double Daze it to keep it from hitting the board and he lost all his gas from there. I remember countering an Intuition in there somewhere as well, but it's somewhat hazy as far as which game it was.

The WUB Fish matchup I was somewhat scared of, mostly because of how he beat me down in the first game. First, maindeck Stifle in his deck was a beating. He stifled my fetches and even stifled a Vial activation to allow his StP hit one of my Muscles (I made the mistake of showing the Crystalline after activating the Vial before allowing his responses, whoops). Anyway, he eventually dropped a Negator into play equipped with a SoFI and it ended pretty much there. Games two and three I don't remember a whole lot, but I didn't see any Negators or Equipment (maybe sided them out?) and early Vials allowed me to bypass his counter magic.

Madness was a little tricky since I've never played the matchup before and didn't know what to expect. First game he had a Fetch, two Trops and an Aquamoeba in play. When he attacked and after I declared no blocks, he tossed Arrogant Wurm to the 'moeba and responded by fetching in order to pay for the Wurm. In response to the fetch I Swords his 'moeba, and it was ruled (not by the judge though, niether of us called for him, we just concluded) that the 'moeba was removed from the game netting him 1 life, the Wurm went to the graveyard, and a Tropical was brought into play from the fetch. I won that game mostly based off that play, hopefully it was correctly ruled on our parts. In game two he pretty much just goldfished me because I kept a threat-light hand. Game three he was working on goldfishing me again until I dropped Worship into play with Crystalline (I was sitting at 2 life by the time I dropped it) and he scooped.

Or maybe he won game 1 and I came back to win 2 and 3, I forget.

UGwr Thresh was relatively simple, but that's because of Crystalline and Talon Sliver with Aether Vial. At one point he had two Mages in play naming Crystalline and Muscle and I had Winged and Crystalline (from Vial) in play with a Vial untapped set to two. He swung in hoping to either trade or hit me and I Vialed in a Talon Sliver letting me wipe his board and leaving mine standing. From there I took over. The second game I remember Forcing a Pyroclasm that would've cleared my board and he couldn't Force back and he didn't have any threats left in hand.

Next time I play, I'll try to keep a better record of what happened in my games, sorry this wasn't as detailed as it could've been.

Volt

08-01-2007, 03:58 PM

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Pinder

08-01-2007, 04:39 PM

"Three Deuce" Meat Hooks
list

I haven't had a chance to test this, but on paper it looks really solid. I was discussing it with Volt last night, and I plan to take it to another tourney this Friday. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

frogboy

08-01-2007, 05:46 PM

My opponent knew I was up to something, but didn't foresee what was about to happen. Not having much choice anyway, he swung with the Mongoose and goyf. I vialed in Talon Sliver...

Yeah, I thought you had Muscle Sliver which would merely be bad for me instead of completely wreck me. I didn't even know what Talon did :<

Add the fourth Vial for the fucking love of sanity.

I'd sideboard Armageddons somewhere but dunno about room. You can't cut Needle because EE actually rapes you and Snare isn't an out if your opponent is clever. You could cut EEs and a Snare, which lightens your combo match some I guess? I dunno.

Pinder

08-01-2007, 07:05 PM

Add the fourth Vial for the fucking love of sanity.

I think 3 is sufficient, honestly. Of course, I thought 2 was sufficient, so whatever.

I'd sideboard Armageddons somewhere but dunno about room. You can't cut Needle because EE actually rapes you and Snare isn't an out if your opponent is clever. You could cut EEs and a Snare, which lightens your combo match some I guess? I dunno.

I was actually thinking about Armageddon. It would certainly help against Landstill, which is one of our worst and most prevelent matchups (I mean, Truffle Shuffle is agruably worse to see across the table, but it's not played in significant enough numbers to warrant extra sideboarding). A resolved Armageddon, especially with an Aether Vial to back it up, could be a huge tempo swing that allows Slivers to survive the mid/late game against Landstill. The 4cc is a little bad, though. Not neccesarily because it's hard to cast, but just because you have to have at least 4 lands in play when you play it. For a deck that only runs 17 lands, having to give up at least 4 of them might be a problem (especially when it only runs 10 lands that actually produce mana). Of course, the devesation it would wreak on Landstill might be enough to balance it out, especially if you have an active Vial. Worth a shot, at least.

Also, I was questioning the EEs in the board as well, because it seems to me like the things you'd like to remove most with EE are in the 2cc range, and it would be a little counterintuitive to keep setting EE at 2, when your 2cc slot is the most clogged. How helpful were they, Volt, and how often did you end up blowing up your own guys with it? Or was it mainly there to deal with EtW tokens?

On the same note, since Legacy is so clogged with 2cc right now (Tarmogoyf, Werebear, Jotun Grunt, Dark Confidant,Serra Avenger, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Counterbalance, Standstill, Jitte, any number of Slivers, etc), Spell Snare seems like it warrants even more consideration now. I suppose it still sucks against Goblins, which is unfortunate and will likely prevent inclusion in the main, but it hits a lot of things in a lot of other matchups. Also, boarding out Daze for Snare in G2 and then watching them play their 2cc around Daze, only to have their spell countered by a Snare anyway, would pretty much be priceless.

Volt

08-01-2007, 07:17 PM

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Jak

08-01-2007, 07:48 PM

I agree of upping the Vial count to 4. I mean, the deck has so many tricks like vialing in Talon or Muscles for surprises and being able to leave countermagic open is great (if you still play counterspell). Plus after stuff like EE it allows you to rebound faster by digging with draw spells and vialing some stuff in. From my limited testing it has been great.

xsockmonkeyx

08-01-2007, 08:12 PM

AETHER VIAL IS FUCKING AWESOME!

Agreed. :cool:

Filipinho

08-01-2007, 09:38 PM

I think with vial you want some counterspells. With mana open, you need to find some use for it.

Sims

08-01-2007, 09:57 PM

I do think something stronger than Daze may be in order, I know Daze is the big tempo counter to suppliment force of will, but I must admit that I'm not fond of it past turn 2. Granted you may not always have the mana up for CSpell, but it's a better answer past the first few turns than Daze. Even Mana Leak is a better answer than Daze,....so Instead of just saying so maybe I'll go do some testing.

Edit: I run 4 Vial, btw. Usually being able to stop drawing the second with Portent or Brainstorm and then shuffle it away is sufficient, I've thought of going to 3 to prevent the double draws, but I usually like having it on turn 1 more than I fear the double Vial draw.

Illissius

08-02-2007, 02:01 AM

What about Winter Orb instead of Armageddon?

Volt

08-02-2007, 02:31 AM

.

Curby

08-02-2007, 03:47 AM

Yeah, I suggested the same thing the other night to Frogboy. I think Orb might be better, if only because ramping up to 4 mana can be difficult.

WOrb would be nice with Daze for two reasons. By bouncing lands you effectively untap two per turn. By crippling their mana, Daze's 1 mana stays effective into the late game as long as WOrb survives. Only "problem" with WOrb is you can't slip it into play with Aether Vial. :wink:

Finn

08-03-2007, 03:12 PM

After 200 some-odd posts, you guys are agreeing on Aether Vial? wtf?
Anyway,
So now your Pithing Needles are weakened since vial is one of your primary targets. Goblins is still a good matchup though, right. OK, np. But I think you could stand to cut it entirely now. With Vial, Wasteland becomes much less of a hassle, and that is certainly another big target. Yeah, I think Stifle is your boy now. It still hits pernicious Deed, and doesn't hose your EE when you need it in a pinch and are facing them.

Also, if you are going to have mana open more often, Counterspell may be an option again.

Pinder

08-04-2007, 03:22 PM

After 200 some-odd posts, you guys are agreeing on Aether Vial? wtf?

We actually conceded Aether Vial a while back, then Volt took it back out again. It's sort of a love/hate relationship. I will tell you, though, that when we originally ran 4 in the old list, it really sucked hard. That might be because we had less creatures in the old list than we do in the newer lists. Either way, it's preforming wonderfully recently, and that's all the convincing I needed. Still not sure about bumping them up to 4 though. Double Vial draws just suck in Slivers.

Anyway,
So now your Pithing Needles are weakened since vial is one of your primary targets. Goblins is still a good matchup though, right?

Talon Sliver is back in the main as a 2-of in the latest list. I can guarantee you our Gobs matchup hasn't softened a bit.

OK, np. But I think you could stand to cut it entirely now. With Vial, Wasteland becomes much less of a hassle, and that is certainly another big target. Yeah, I think Stifle is your boy now. It still hits pernicious Deed, and doesn't hose your EE when you need it in a pinch and are facing them.

A lot of the same reasoning has been running through my mind lately. I usually end up siding out Vials for Needles against Gobbos, because they don't have a lot of countermagic (outside of the occasional REB or something out of the board), so it's not as much of an issue. Either way though, Storm is on the rise, and Stifle is actually relevant against Storm, whereas Needle is not. Also, I like Stifle better against Deed, because when you Stifle a Deed they've already sacced it, whereas if you Needle a Deed it's only a matter of time before they just answer it and wipe your board.

Also, I really miss Stifling a first turn Fetch. It's just so good. It's seriously like sex on the first date.

Also, if you are going to have mana open more often, Counterspell may be an option again.

Eh, maybe. I don't really know what to cut, though. Possibly Dazes, but I actually really like Daze in the early game. I could see them becoming Counterspells, though. Another possibility is maindeck Spell Snares. That card is just so sexy.