Thats fine and good, but I understand that some of those in the animal rights camp go beyond destruction of property. But if you don't fall in line with that sort of crowd, then you have my blessings.

Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:07 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

well personally I think animal rights is one of the lesser issues, I dont' really deal with it.

but what do you mean go beyond that? I just have never heard of an animal rights activists like beating the head of McDonalds up or anything

Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:44 pm

tinkleDRINKER

Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 788

in an country that property is held in such high regard - we are talking capatalism here - isn't an act of violence against property and act violence agaisnt the the title holder? am i not allowed the right to use voilent force to protect my property?

also, who says that we are mindlessly killing animals? alf, not to resort to cheap tactics, but they are on file with the fbi as terrorist organization. not exactly the flagship of honesty and integrity.

you want an argument against the "so-called" liberation of animals - take your pick, i won't bring them all up, because most of them are shit, but how about this one. i don't believe that animals are being exploited! that is a bullshit argument isn't it! what is alf's argument. pretty much the same thing thing isn't it! let me geuss a lot of stats, a lot of "so-called" studies,and a lot of shit that foundation of biomedical research and mcdonalds have as well! at the end of the day you are being fed the same argument.

The point to my original post was that - i do not see any rational, philospohical justification for the use of violence in protest of animal exploitation - if any one does then call me out! but frustration and desperation are not valid arguments! they are the very essence of irrationality. peace jay

Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:56 pm

prolifik

Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 488

I'm talking about the wackjobs who attack people who wear fur coats and who throw bottles at police. I was all up in the mix of WTO a few years back here in Seattle, and the large group of protesters did not seem to settle on globalization as the main point that they were protesting. Gasmask clad "protesters" with PETA signs carried out some nice offensives against the Seattle riot cops. In fact, I was nearly KIA by one of their flying Heinekens. This is the group that I speak of, and I have seen it first hand. These folks are the abortion clinic bomber equivalent of the animal rights groups. To add a smaller point.. your average 17 year old angry white vegan suburbanite female probably lacks the explosive training to properly detonate a McDonalds without putting the hundreds of people nearby at risk.

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:01 pm

MessiahCarey

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924

prolifik wrote: I'm talking about the wackjobs who attack people who wear fur coats and who throw bottles at police. I was all up in the mix of WTO a few years back here in Seattle, and the large group of protesters did not seem to settle on globalization as the main point that they were protesting. Gasmask clad "protesters" with PETA signs carried out some nice offensives against the Seattle riot cops. In fact, I was nearly KIA by one of their flying Heinekens. This is the group that I speak of, and I have seen it first hand. These folks are the abortion clinic bomber equivalent of the animal rights groups. To add a smaller point.. your average 17 year old angry white vegan suburbanite female probably lacks the explosive training to properly detonate a McDonalds without putting the hundreds of people nearby at risk.

Okay fine. I can't shut up anymore. Haha.

World leaders pay more attention when they know you're REALLY PISSED.

How you do that will vary on the situation - and the leaders' willingness to listen. If nobody's listening, yell louder would appear to be the ONLY course of action.

Just apply that to individual causes and BANG, there's my opinion on anything related to peaceful vs. violent protest.

- Shane

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:15 pm

tinkleDRINKER

Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 788

MessiahCarey wrote:

prolifik wrote: I'm talking about the wackjobs who attack people who wear fur coats and who throw bottles at police. I was all up in the mix of WTO a few years back here in Seattle, and the large group of protesters did not seem to settle on globalization as the main point that they were protesting. Gasmask clad "protesters" with PETA signs carried out some nice offensives against the Seattle riot cops. In fact, I was nearly KIA by one of their flying Heinekens. This is the group that I speak of, and I have seen it first hand. These folks are the abortion clinic bomber equivalent of the animal rights groups. To add a smaller point.. your average 17 year old angry white vegan suburbanite female probably lacks the explosive training to properly detonate a McDonalds without putting the hundreds of people nearby at risk.

Okay fine. I can't shut up anymore. Haha.

World leaders pay more attention when they know you're REALLY PISSED.

How you do that will vary on the situation - and the leaders' willingness to listen. If nobody's listening, yell louder would appear to be the ONLY course of action.

Just apply that to individual causes and BANG, there's my opinion on anything related to peaceful vs. violent protest.

- Shane

you do not yell louder by manifesting you're outrage. you yell louder by adding other voices to yours.

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:25 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

what the hell is the problem with the United States? all over the world protests involve lots of direct action. Lots of shit happens on both sides. In europe the press almost always, rightfully IMHO, blames the destruction on the police.

In america one fucking beer bottle gets thrown at a riot cop or one window gets broken and everyone is flipping out screaming about how crazy the protesters are.

The average american football game causes more destruction than an IMF protest (something the DC chief of police even said in the newspapers)

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:25 pm

MessiahCarey

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924

tinkleDRINKER wrote: you do not yell louder by manifesting you're outrage. you yell louder by adding other voices to yours.

I'll buy that, in a way.

But what if there's something that keeps those voices from having access to your cause?

What if there's a HUGE media machine attacking your causes and perpetuating status quo? When does yelling stop working? If yelling stops working you just roll over and die, right? Tell that to anti-slavery activists from America's past (i.e. the north).

What I'm getting at - is that there is a point where it flips from one side of the coin to the other...there's that moment when there are no means left by which to show your outrage other than to act upon it. I would accept this as a reality of the human condition.

- Shane

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:35 pm

natas sevol dog

Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 345
Location: dallas area

thnkledrinker "also, who says that we are mindlessly killing animals? alf, not to resort to cheap tactics, but they are on file with the fbi as terrorist organization. not exactly the flagship of honesty and integrity." so because fbi lists them as terrorist then they arent honest or anything such as that? i dont understand how that makes any sense whatsoever.
and about the liberation of animals, its not based upon statistics or any bullmalarky , they have videos and testimonies of xemployees and people sent into the places to spy on them. and anyways, this is my question, why do the anti-animal rights(i dunno what to call em) people only see the human side of the conflict(ie. property destruction and such), try to think about the animals they are the whole reason this is going on. do you think an animal would rather be sitting in a fecesinfested cage all its life or having cosmetics sprayed into its eyes/injected into its skin, or it would rather live in a caring home with people who treat it right and show it love? quit being selfish

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:36 pm

prolifik

Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 488

Just when I was starting to buy into Michael Moore's little theory that Americans are part of an overly violent culture, I see people saying that we aren't violent enough. I don't know if I'd agree that we should strive to be just as violent as countries elsewhere in the world, but thanks for the laugh.

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:41 pm

quasifoto

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 975
Location: Albany

Direct action really shouldn't be called violent! That's a bullshit label for it. Especially in the case here where it's used to save animals and no one is harmed. Violence on inanimate objects is just different. All the government agencies that label the ALF terrorist are complete bullshit anyway. If slaves were still around and people were fighting to free them, the government would be watching those activists too.

great post so far.

Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:03 pm

Llamasex

Joined: 04 Sep 2002
Posts: 100

prolifik wrote: Just when I was starting to buy into Michael Moore's little theory that Americans are part of an overly violent culture, I see people saying that we aren't violent enough. I don't know if I'd agree that we should strive to be just as violent as countries elsewhere in the world, but thanks for the laugh.

I think it is about control, or organized voilence vs not.

Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:09 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

perhaps you didn't pay very muchattention to Micheal Moores movie if you think he was talkign about militant protests, or that what he says relates to that.

try thinking a bit, not everything you can slap the lable "violence" on means the same thing.

Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:14 pm

tinkleDRINKER

Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 788

natas sevol dog wrote: thnkledrinker "also, who says that we are mindlessly killing animals? alf, not to resort to cheap tactics, but they are on file with the fbi as terrorist organization. not exactly the flagship of honesty and integrity." so because fbi lists them as terrorist then they arent honest or anything such as that? i dont understand how that makes any sense whatsoever.
and about the liberation of animals, its not based upon statistics or any bullmalarky , they have videos and testimonies of xemployees and people sent into the places to spy on them. and anyways, this is my question, why do the anti-animal rights(i dunno what to call em) people only see the human side of the conflict(ie. property destruction and such), try to think about the animals they are the whole reason this is going on. do you think an animal would rather be sitting in a fecesinfested cage all its life or having cosmetics sprayed into its eyes/injected into its skin, or it would rather live in a caring home with people who treat it right and show it love? quit being selfish

setlle down cupcake!
as a matter of fact the FBI is one of the US watchdogs for illegal activity and if they say your a terrorist - it dosen't do much for credibility -meaning that you are a potential threat to the LAW abiding citizens of this country, that is why i said " not exactly then FLAGSHIP of honesty and integrity".

once agian i don't believe thier testomonies and videos- i feel that they are biased. ex-employees and people who enter private sector companies under false pretenses are not reliable data. if you think they are then the bullshit they are feeding you is working.
as far as being selfish - that is your call to make - i certainly won't lose any sleep over it . the same way i don't lose any sleep over supporting the use of animals for food, clothing and research. but in the end it is merely opinion. show me a non-biased organization, that does a scientific study that states that animal use is wrong and i will look at the data. until then show me a valid, rational argument that supports violence in protest of animal exploitation. if you can not do either then how are you so sure that the OPINION you have is the right one.

Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:15 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

tinkly drinker:

oh be quite. As I said above I dont' care too mucha bout animal rights. Ill be honest. But im not stupid enough to pretend animals aren' tmistreated.

There is plenty of evidence, plenty ADMITED to by the industry, to make someone who thinks animals desrve the same rights as humans to say they are being exploited.

in fact its pretty damn evident a creature that is locked up and made to produce for another creatue against its will is being exploited. stop being silly.