First of all guys, as an aikidoka, I'm saying this doesn't mean I wish to defect from Aikido. Ever since my enlightenment began, I never and will never lose my respect of O'sensei, his teachers and their teachings, including his disciples that have struggled to preserve his original teachings and/or even make it better. I feel that it's just my personal duty to tell this message to you all so that we could bring back the Aikido that O'sensei really meant including making it better, so that no one, not even one from the Daito-ryu CS would ridicule us!

Now let's begin:

We all know that in Aikido training, "flashback training" by learning Daito-ryu is considered as important. It's just common sense. But as we know also, not all of our sister, even ancestor arts, are willing to accept us open handedly. Including in this case is, Sagawa.

I'm not meaning to raise a conflict or so what, but I simply can't erase Sagawa from our discussion here to promulgate the "sonno joi" of Aikido, ever since Sagawa Yukiyoshi himself claimed to possess the Aiki even higher than Sokaku as O'sensei teacher himself, yet maintained the most comprehensive curriculum, since he's one of the first direct disciple of Sokaku even before O'sensei, other Daito-ryu shihans, even his own son began training.

OK, let's face that the Sagawa-ryu has the most complete curriculum and has high capability of Aiki, which shouldn't we disregard. Especially, given to the fact that the Sagawa-ryu has some major defectors from aikido! The Soke now, Kimura Tatsuo, also is a former aikidoka who used to train under Seigo Yamaguchi-shihan which we indeed highly respect because of his powerful and creative skills, even he also used to train under O'sensei!

To make things worse, their autarky also ridiculed Aikido and O'sensei! They even refused to acknowledge O'sensei! While that could been possible that O'sensei had a lesser capability if compared to Sagawa during the pre-war, but we do know that O'sensei did used to dodge bullet, while Sagawa haven't. They put down on us because of the reason that our skills in Aikido are crappy!

Also,let's face the fact that virtually, none of O'sensei's students are following his Aikido, as this words often came from not only Daito-ryu but also fellow Aikidokas. But if we are ridiculed as "crappy", I'm sure that we must prove that Aikido is not crappy at all!

Personally, I haven't experienced the Iwama Aikido, where many ronin Aikidokas suggest it as a good sanctuary for us in searching for O'sensei's original teachings instead of going to other arts and being ridiculed or worse, defect from from Aikido. But I think that'd be a good option for us Aikidokas who wish to restore the glory of Aikido without being afraid to be "brainwashed" and even ridiculed by other schools.

Here's the thing: O'sensei and Sagawa are both students of Takeda Sokaku. We basically shouldn't put down each other. If there's a hawk ridiculing us, I think we need the serum, the another hawk for fightback. And I believe that Iwama-ryu is a good hawk to counter-balance Sagawa. How do you think about this?

lbb

10-03-2012 07:10 AM

Re: Aikido "Sonno Joi"

Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote:
(Post 316561)

How do you think about this?

I think I gotta go out and get me an autarky RIGHT NOW.

Cliff Judge

10-03-2012 08:06 AM

Re: Aikido "Sonno Joi"

Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote:
(Post 316561)

If there's a hawk ridiculing us, I think we need the serum,

That is obviously some really good serum.

MM

10-03-2012 08:13 AM

Re: Aikido "Sonno Joi"

Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote:
(Post 316561)

First of all guys, as an aikidoka, I'm saying this doesn't mean I wish to defect from Aikido. Ever since my enlightenment began, I never and will never lose my respect of O'sensei, his teachers and their teachings, including his disciples that have struggled to preserve his original teachings and/or even make it better. I feel that it's just my personal duty to tell this message to you all so that we could bring back the Aikido that O'sensei really meant including making it better, so that no one, not even one from the Daito-ryu CS would ridicule us!

Since we've been hashing over this kind of stuff for long years and closed threads, hopefully, you bring new subject matter for us to think about. :)

Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote:
(Post 316561)

Now let's begin:

We all know that in Aikido training, "flashback training" by learning Daito-ryu is considered as important. It's just common sense. But as we know also, not all of our sister, even ancestor arts, are willing to accept us open handedly. Including in this case is, Sagawa.

I don't think it's "considered as important" at all. I doubt many do. After all, Daito ryu had, and has, the same issue that Modern Aikido had/has: Lack of the martial skill of aiki. And Sagawa's dojo was closed to a lot of Japanese, too. It was closed to people who had a lot of other martial art experience. Sagawa was particular. He's allowed to be. It was his system.

Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote:
(Post 316561)

I'm not meaning to raise a conflict or so what, but I simply can't erase Sagawa from our discussion here to promulgate the "sonno joi" of Aikido, ever since Sagawa Yukiyoshi himself claimed to possess the Aiki even higher than Sokaku as O'sensei teacher himself, yet maintained the most comprehensive curriculum, since he's one of the first direct disciple of Sokaku even before O'sensei, other Daito-ryu shihans, even his own son began training.

You should include the others, too. Horikawa, Hisa, etc. Sagawa was not the only one. Nor did he maintain the most complete curriculum. That might be Hisa, who catalogued both Takeda's and Ueshiba's techniques given to his school. But, really, after looking at all of the schools ... just how much did technique matter? So, why focus on techniques? Sagawa, Horikawa, Ueshiba all said their art was formless. And it was said that Ueshiba was Takeda's most favored student.

Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote:
(Post 316561)

OK, let's face that the Sagawa-ryu has the most complete curriculum and has high capability of Aiki, which shouldn't we disregard. Especially, given to the fact that the Sagawa-ryu has some major defectors from aikido! The Soke now, Kimura Tatsuo, also is a former aikidoka who used to train under Seigo Yamaguchi-shihan which we indeed highly respect because of his powerful and creative skills, even he also used to train under O'sensei!

Sagawa, Horikawa, and Ueshiba had high levels of aiki. Since no one was at their level, it is near impossible to actually determine who was better or who had a deeper understanding. As for teaching, Sagawa supposedly said that he withheld the secrets until very late in his life. Only those students of Ueshiba who were taught Daito ryu stood out from all the rest: Shioda, Mochizuki, Shirata, Tomiki, etc. So, when it became Aikido after the war, Ueshiba didn't appear to teach the secrets either. Plus, Takeda supposedly threatened them that they should only teach one or two the secrets. You are missing a whole lot of research out there.

Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote:
(Post 316561)

Also,let's face the fact that virtually, none of O'sensei's students are following his Aikido, as this words often came from not only Daito-ryu but also fellow Aikidokas. But if we are ridiculed as "crappy", I'm sure that we must prove that Aikido is not crappy at all!

I think many would disagree with you. Shioda was said to be most like Ueshiba. Tomiki was very respected, both for being a gentleman and for his skill. Mochizuki was very good. Shirata stood out whenever he trained at Tokyo after the war. Etc. While we do not know how far along these giants of aikido came to Ueshiba's skills, they were still giants. Ueshiba supposedly still wanted all his Daito ryu students to come back and train with him ... after the war. There is tons of research out there that you appear to not have found.

Quote:

Maxwell Hamzah wrote:
(Post 316561)

Personally, I haven't experienced the Iwama Aikido, where many ronin Aikidokas suggest it as a good sanctuary for us in searching for O'sensei's original teachings instead of going to other arts and being ridiculed or worse, defect from from Aikido. But I think that'd be a good option for us Aikidokas who wish to restore the glory of Aikido without being afraid to be "brainwashed" and even ridiculed by other schools.

Here's the thing: O'sensei and Sagawa are both students of Takeda Sokaku. We basically shouldn't put down each other. If there's a hawk ridiculing us, I think we need the serum, the another hawk for fightback. And I believe that Iwama-ryu is a good hawk to counter-balance Sagawa. How do you think about this?

The secret that Sokaku Takeda kept and only gave to a few people was aiki. The training to change the body with aiki was what created those giants: Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Horikawa, etc. Each in turn taught a few students who stood out. Funny that Ueshiba had the most. Still, it is the secret of aiki which is what students of both Modern Aikido and Daito ryu should be pursuing. I do agree that we shouldn't be putting each other down. But, to hold onto the schools, the techniques, the spirituality (misogi, chinkon kishon, etc) while disregarding the outright fact that all of these greats talked about aiki, the secret of aiki, how aiki was a body changing method, how the art was formless is just putting blinders on.