Recruit JuCo For Defense?

Assuming Rich Rod can not just plug in any athletic guy at QB and get great results then Denard Robinson is something very special. Like once in a career special. It would be a real shame not to make a championship run with Robinson. But if the defense doesn't get better fast then there will be no run. So why not target the top two JuCo linebackers? And maybe a D lineman and a corner? I realize that JuCo is not the way to build a lasting program but this is an extraordinary situation.

So to the MGoBlog recruiting gurus, who's out there? Tell me there are a few possibilities.

This is actually something I had thought about a few weeks ago. Bringing in a few good JUCO players could really help us out. Theres no question that the young guys we have are very talented but most championships are won by more experienced teams. Yea it would take some playing time away from a few younger guys but it will also give them time to develop and we dont have to just throw them into the fire. And i think the recruting staff is looking into this as we are trying to recruit moore, a safety who played at USC for a year and is now a JUCO.

but have never seen any facts about it. I knew a few transfers at Michigan (granted they were nt Juco guys).

If a JUCO kid has say 60 credits at his JUCO, and Michigan looks at the classes and says, we'll only take 30 credits, couldn't the kid transfer and graduate in 3 years (I realize he could only play 2, but he could still be on scholarship for 3, correct?

The problem is Michigan doesn't look at the classes and say 'we'll take 30 credits', they look at it and say 'we'll take 0 credits and you'll like it'. Even if you transfer from other 4 year universities, most of the grades in the classes won't transfer, and some classes credits won't transfer.

Example. My friend goes to central (fire up chips!), he was a bit of a fuck around in high school, so that's pretty much the only place he got in. However, he has really high grades there now (almost a 4.0), and so he looked around for transferring. Michigan would accept 0 grades and approximately 2 classes if I remember right. So after a year of classes, Michigan was willing to take 8ish credits. Central's not a great school by any standard, but it is a 4 year university, and it's definitely better than a juco.

Basically, don't get your hopes up for any juco players in the near future. Even Byron Moore.

As mentioned many times in these pages it is very difficult for JUCO credits to transfer to Michigan. The only two JUCOs that I know of in the recent past are: Shaw ('96 -'97) and Panter ('07 - '08). The former USC DB Byron Moore may be an exception as he is a JUCO for other than academic reasons..... would love to get this kid in a winged helmet next year.

JUCO credits rarely, if ever, transfer to Michigan so it is almost impossible to get JUCO players admited to Michigan. Austin Painter is the only one I can remember in a long time and if I recall correctly he was basically qualified as a transfer student without athletics being taken into account.

go to Tulane or North Idaho State or some place like that, sit their 4th string LB/Safety down and tell him:

" Son, you are good enough to start the minute you step foot at Michigan. We have some film of our Starting LB's and Safeties to show you. You will sit out a year (which you are doing here anyway) but after that, you've got the job.".

Why transfers only go out of Michigan, I just don't get? Why can't we go to a D1 school, grab a guy on the 3rd or 4th string (they already cleared NCAA clearinghouse), I just don't understand.

First of all, I don't think a school can contact players on other teams - that must violate NCAA rules just like it does in the NFL.

Second, why would Michigan "recruit" a kid that would never, ever be recruited to play at Michigan regardless of the circumstances? Even the starting LB at a school like Tulane or some other crappy school would likely never, ever have been recruited by Michigan.

Finally and probably most importantly to many fans, the chances that one of these players could qualify academically at Michigan is slim to none. On the line of thinking that Michigan should go after a JUCO player or another kid at some other lesser team, why not go recruit D-III teams? Why not go watch kids in community college play pick-up games and recruit them? Rodriguez already took heat for recruiting a stud like Dorsey after he didn't pass through admissions, why would he go for lesser talent and assumedly face the same problem?

they have to meet the NCAA's min. standards to BE ELIGABLE TO PLAY THEIR FROSH YEAR. however, they also have to be admitted to the school that they commit to. they still have to go through the same admissions process as everyone else.

so, yes, the coaching staff has to make sure their recuits can be admitted to Michigan before they recuit/offer them. least we have another dorsey incident.

Meals69 is right to a certain extent. Notre Dame gets recruits over us all the time because they are able to offer guaranteed admission to their school of business. We however cannot do that. In most other cases the kid just has to be a little bit hight than the minimum in order to get accepted at almost every school, save stanford and northwestern

I was a D1 college scholarship football player at Bowling Green State University ('99-'01.) I was recuirted out of high school by most of the MAC and a handfull of Big ten schools. At EVERY school I visited through the course of my junior and senoir years, ALL said even if we offer you, you will NEED TO APPLY TO THE SCHOOL LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. I've been through the process and while yes i needed to complete the NCAA clearing house to be eligable to play college sports, you also have to be admitted to the school you choose.

as far as Dorsey, while i'm sure he completed the clearing house's standards (as no one would have offered him if he hadn't,) if he did infact lie about his academics, that WOULD BE WHY he was unable to gain admission to a D1 school, so you fail on that count, as well.

I never said BGSU's admission standards were anywhere near Michigan's....but for any school there is a cut-off point at which, if you're not above that point, you won't get into that school, reguardless of how good an athlete you are.

Minimal, basic requiremnets to admit students are put in place by the individual university. These are the standards that one MUST MEET in order to be CONSIDERED for admission. To assume that Michigan would admit an athlete, solely b/c they are an athlete when the admissions board KNOWS the individual will not be able to make the grade academicaly at Michigan is not only absurd, but would also infer that you believe there is a grade fixing scandal ongoing at the university.

FYI, my grades and the activities i was involed in were good enough to get me into most any school in the country. I chose BGSU b/c they offered me a scholly, as I would not have been able to afford to go to college right out of high school otherwise. And b/c it was close to home. To infer that I chose my school based on my inteligence level is not only rude/mean, but is also ignorant.

1. If you get past the clearninghouse, Michigan can almost always get you in. (Note that I said "almost always;" in the case of DD, it turns out he HASN'T actually been admitted anywhere.) Michigan's admissions standards for athletes are much, much, much lower. I mean, seriously- the average ACT for an out-of-state student is around 29 or 30; the school average overall is a 27. A 30, for example, is, I believe, in the top 5-8 percent of all high school students. Your statements re: leg up, etc., which you've kind of backed off of, were wrong, man. If you get through the clearinghouse, which has really, REALLY low standards, you get into M if they want you, 90 percent of the time or so. Unless you're a criminal or something.

i said football players have lower admissions standards and you took that for me saying they were dumb. on top of contradicting yourself from your previous posts after probably realizing that you were wrong, you basically agree with me yet you re-word both our comments to disagree with you. oh well, i move on.

this quote: "but you are hopelessly misguided if you think admissions standards for football players are near that of regular students" is not stating that you feel all football players are held to a much lower standard than "regular" students? Also, at no ponit have I contradicted myself, my comment was taken out of context to which i had to clarify.

Also, sorry for the misspellings, but most of my posts are done from my phone. I fully admit that I am a horrible speller, but, I'm a cop, not an english teacher. If I had a spell check on my phone, I'd love to use it. Furthermore, if i had known that I would be recieveing a letter grade for my spelling, or been lamb basted for speaking the truth to many that either want none of it, or want to stick to the traditional thinking of "all football players are dumb, so they can't possibly be held to the same standard as 'regular' students" I would have simply kept my comments to myself.

please forgive me for thinking this was a blog where we could all communicate with eachother freely.

In all varsity sports. That doesn't mean that the dumbest person on the planet could gain admissions and play sports at UM, but the athletes most definitely do not have to go through the same admissions process as the normal student. Even preferred walkons can gain advantages in admissions status in many cases.

Lets say you have an average highschooler with a 2.5 gpa and a 23 ACT who is being offered an athletic scholarship. This person will be admitted no problem barring any arrests or things like that. If that same person isn't an athlete there is almost no chance they gain acceptance.

I believe this is the point In_Rod is trying to make. If MEALS is saying that athletes go through the normal admissions process this is completely false. Different schools do have different standards for athletes as well though.

Most applicants meet the "school basic requirements" but aren't admitted. Athletes that meet these requirements are admitted. I would consider that a leg up. I'm not questioning the intelligence or the qualifications of the athetes, I'm simply saying that it is a stretch of the truth to say that athletes go through the same admissions process as everyone else. I was an athlete at UM, as was my girlfriend. A large percentage of the athletes would not gain admission if they weren't playing a sport, I think this is the point In_rod was making and I agree with it.

when i said "same admmissions process" before (i'll clarify) i didn't intend for that to be taken as "they handle EVERY APPLICATION the same, exact way." What I meant was they still have to apply to said school and still have to meet said schools min. requirements, and still have to be selected for admission. do they weigh athletes apps differently, I'm sure most schools do. But if you can't meet the BASIC requirements for that institution, then you aren't getting in whether you've completed the clearing house or not.

Our school's "basic requirements" are, generally, a fuckton higher than the "basic requirements" for athletes. The "basic requirements" are generally "being cleared by the NCAA clearinghouse for college athletes." There are two separate admissions processes: one for athletes, one for everyone else. Yes, they DO have to fill out an application. But if you think the apps are looked at in even remotely the same way, it's simply not the case. Not at Michigan, not anywhere. Even the Stanfords and Northwesterns of the world still have different-- MUCH different-- standards for student athletes vs. non-athletes.

...the article on Dorsey not getting admitted into Louisville. I"m only asking because I've heard this a number of times but unfortunately every attempt to google the issue runs into the bigger story of Dorsey at UM.

No offense intended to schools like Alabama and Kansas State and the others listed as having received committments on that list of Top 50 JUCOs, but not one of those schools comes close to Michigan's academic standards. I'm not sure why Michigan would go after these kids now after not having recruited them in the first place. There is a reason why Rodriguez and Co. did not pursue them and that reason likely has not changed.

In_Rod, the NCAA Clearinghouse standards are the same for all schools, but that is the minimum if understand correctly. Schools can and do apply a higher standard if they're so inclined.

Meals, just because you have to apply like everyone else, you're kidding yourself if you think you are admitted on the same standards as regular, non sports playing joes. When I was at UM during the whole Affirmative Action thing, the Daily had a thing about the points system they used. If I remember, being an underrepresented minority was worth 20 points or something while being a scholarship athlete was worth 40. This could be completely wrong, but I think I remember David Terrell only coming to UM because he didn't meet ND's academic standards.

and if that's the system they use (points) then they are still going through the admmissions process. when i said "same admmissions process" before (i'll clarify) i didn't intend for that to be taken as "they handle EVERY APPLICATION the same, exact way." What I meant was they still have to apply to said school and still have to meet said schools min. requirements, and still have to be selected for admission. do they weigh athletes apps differently, I'm sure most schools do. But if you can't meet the BASIC requirements for that institution, then you aren't getting in whether you've completed the clearing house or not.

The fact of the matter is that "NCAA Clearinghouse" rules have very little to do with Michigan admissions. Just ask Demar Dorsey. Michigan standards > NCAA Clearinghouse standards > JUCO standards. If you all don't see it that way, you're just kidding yourselves.

and that's EXACTLLY what i've been saying....the clearing house standards are bare min. basic standards that all college athletes must meet upon entering college. Many school's standards excced the clearing house standards, i'm sure Michigan's standards far exceed the clearing house standards

wouldn't have gotten admitted if he was recruited this year. The admissions did let him in despite the fact that he had no business getting admitted. There are a few players in the past who have gotten in who have no business getting admitted into Michigan.

I don't mean to attack you, In_Rod_I_trust, but your statement about Ezeh makes absolutely no sense when read in connetion with your previous posts in this thread. You state that Ezeh is so terrible (as to warrant the firing of Jay Hopson) and would rather recruit a JUCO kid instead? That makes absolutely no sense.

You're 100% right. First, Bruce's expression before the kick is extremely frightening. Then, his leg suddenly whips around and I think he knocks Brutus's head off his body. That makes me smile but then Bruce's expression scares me again! Its like a rollercoaster ride all inside a little avatar.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go out of my way to defend the coaches when it comes to defense because I think mistakes have been made and they're not necessarily helping the situation in some cases. But really? Really?

You listed 6 players from the 2009 defense. What about the other 5? What about the fact that you're actually DEFENDING Stevie Brown, who was one of the all-time worst players until last year when THIS COACHING STAFF managed to milk some of his talent and turn him into a border-line NFL player. They don't get credit for that?

Or what about Brandon Graham being an over-weight guy playing out of position until THIS COACHING STAFF turned him into the QB eating beast he is today? They don't get credit for that either?

Last year a skinny true freshman Craig Roh had to play. Last year Ezeh was still Ezeh and had to play. Donovan Warren was bad and has flamed out as a prospect, but aside from that they had to play freshman JT Floyd at the other corner because they had no one else. Last year a freshman student body walk-on had to play. Last year there were FOUR walk-ons in the 2-deep. I don't care if you're Vince Lombardi, there's only so much you can do with that. Maybe you could do more than our coaches did, but don't forget that the offense did them no favors with turnovers, field position, and 3-and-out drives.

To be successful a defense needs to have talent, depth, and experience. This season we have almost none of that - none. Maybe the coaches are part of the problem, but they are not the biggest issue.

Whether it's tough for JUCOs to get into Michigan or not, we should still pursue some of them. A JUCO player in his sophomore season should have at least two semesters of transcripts ready to send to Michigan, and U of M could tell him right now how many of those credits would transfer. By January he should have at least three semesters' worth of credits.

It's not impossible for JUCO players to transfer to Michigan. If I were Rodriguez, I'd be offering JUCO defensive players left and right. They might only be quick fixes, but that would give these freshmen and sophomores a chance to get their minds and bodies right.

it's about them having enough credits when they get to michigan to graduate on time. fact is, almost none of them do so it's not worth the effort of recruiting a JUCO player unless they're at the junior college for reasons outside of academic eligibility (see byron moore)

So, it's a committment the kid has to make. If he's going to lose 30 or so credits and not graduate in 4 years, so what? There's a reason why a shit ton of money is set aside for 5th year non-players to complete their degrees.

Why? Because the experience issue is one that no coach can get around, and JUCO level football is only a small step higher than HS. Next year we will have more experienced secondary players, including the hopeful return of a very good one in Woolfolk. This, along with necessary experience for any returning LB's, which RR has stated he wants get Demens and JB in, will be much better than calling in some JUCO, and thinking the problem will be fixed. We will have experience next year, enough so that the younger players(freshmen) don't have to come in and play raw, unless they are a top-flite recruit. Next year will be the telling year for GERG, assuming no tragic losses like Woolfolk and Warren were.

But there are always JUCO recruits who can contribute. Cameron Newton came from a JUCO. Chad Johnson came from a JUCO. I'm not saying every JUCO transfer is going to be a star, but they can fill gaps.

Regardless, we still need help in the secondary. We don't have a free safety of the future (Cam Gordon is too slow and I hope he doesn't stay there his entire career), and our cornerback situation is iffy (Woolfolk might not return at full strength, Rogers is graduating, the rest have questionable talent).

I doubt it will happen, but I think a JUCO defensive back could be helpful.

Excuse me for my ignorance, but are you referring to Chad "Ocho Cinco" Johnson? I hope not. My grandfather would turn over in his grave if he knew Ocho Cinco was a Michigan Wolverine.

The issue for me is not whether they can contribute - I'm sure there are lots of kids in JUCOs that would/will become D-1 and NFL stars - but whether they belong academically. I'm sure there are some that are very bright but just did not assert themselves in high school. But I submit that would be the far end of the spectrum of JUCO transfers.

Whether it's tough for JUCOs to get into Michigan or not, we should still pursue some of them.

Magnus, I can't believe you of all people are making this argument. You have repeatedly criticized RR for recruiting academically borderline kids (with justification). Now you are calling for him to spend time on players who are even less likely to arrive here? Even if there were a pathway for most of these guys to take to have two years of college credit when they arrived (which is necessary for them to be academically eligible), it would likely involve taking a grueling courseload that the player probably couldn't handle. Other schools will just take the kid, no questions asked. Faced with those choices, which one is a Juco going to take?

when talking about championship caliber. Oregon, who many think is the #1 team in the nation, does not have anywhere near the top defense, but it isn't that hard to imagine them running the table and winning the MNC. Iowa, on the other hand, has a top-rated D, but lost to a team that just lost to Oregon St., and no one envisions them winning out the rest of their games.

A defense only has to be good enough to hold the other team to less than your offense scores. Simple, right? Now, if your offense can score on anyone, and score a lot, like Oregon's can, your defense doesn't have to be great, just good.

Having said that, I think there will be major improvement next year on our D, particularly considering the youth in the secondary, and I think UM will contend next year for the B10 championship, even with a defense that may only be considered average by most. If our offense wasn't going to be good next year, we'd probably find ourselves in a similar situation as this year, expecting only 7-9 wins, but doing it because of all-around team competence, instead of having to rely on our O to outscore opponents in scoring fests, like we are this year.

that this is a solution. Carr more or less tried this with Panter, who as mentioned above was a four star and he barely saw the field and didn't do much with his time on it. I'm not sure that even if we get a couple of JUCO guys (Moore excepted) that it will make any difference. Better off using those schollies on guys who can contribute in a couple of years and hope upper class Fitzgerald, Demens, and Bell (is he going to be a redshirt soph next year?) can improve on what we have seen this year, which isnt so farfectched any idea.

........, even if they could qualify academically for UM, is something that doesn't need to be done. Even if UM could plug someone in this year like a Greg Jones, our D wouldn't be noticeably better than it is. Why is this, you ask? Because one LB won't fix the inexperience in the secondary. One LB won't give us the other space eater needed on the DL to be successful in a 3-man front.

On the one hand, I can see the point about the D needing to get much better to utilize the gift of Denard for a championship run. On the other, I think people are hitting the panic button too early.

Next year, we will have an experienced, although still young, secondary, including having another guy back who would have started this year and been our best player there. We will have Martin, RVB, Roh back, along with Black, hopefully a better Campbell, and Ash to make our DL better. This is why, even if we lose a little now putting in Demens or JB Fitz at LB, we need to do it so they can gain meaningful experience. I don't think we will field a top ten caliber defense next year, but they should be better than average.

Experience matters. We have talented kids on the defense, but much like Denard last year, they are limited in what they can do because instead of reacting instinctually, they think too much. A year's experience, along with an entire year of training will give them the edge that Denard has on O this year.

This JUCO talk is crazy. People don't even know what the problem is I guess. It's fundamentals on D, which goes back to coaching. Every freaking time. We are LAST in the B10, almost in FBS and thats not a place a good coach would be in even with sub-par personnel.

OK. Lets just say everyone agrees our coaches aren't, let's say, good. Let's say average, which is a stretch. They are gonna bring in JUCOs who aren't gonna be in the upper percentile and they are gonna fast track them to start next year? And succeed? Not gonna happen. I'm not gonna even go into character issues of JUCOs.

We have good, young, dedicated , success-starved kids on our defensive roster. They are not being coached up to their potential. Their potential is much better than last in the FBS. This is an outrage. GERG has got to go. Bring in a PROVEN colege DC and pay him whatever it takes. We have enough young kids on D that would soak up good coaching like a sponge.

Look at GERGs track record. His defenses never really got better the longer he was there. If anything they got worse. I raised this point before season started and was laughed at- - Super Bowl rings, yada yada, Texas blah, blah. It's not working. Never really has for him. His defenses didn't get better. They got worse. We are in that same pattern here right now. IHow long does it need to play out?

.....that even a guy like Pellini would have good success with our D, given the personnel he would have to deal with. A very young, very inexperienced secondary makes the LB's job harder, particularly when the DC is using them to make up for that deficiency. Don't forget that we lost one semi-shutdown corner to a stupid, ill-advised career move and another CB/S, who could have started on quite a few of the better teams, to an injury that hurt our D immensely. Without those two things happening, our secondary becomes more experienced, allowing the LB's to play more for the run and having less pressure placed on them. We certainly wouldn't be a top-flite D, but it would be miles better than it is right now, and no one would be talking about GERG failing.

Next year I fully expect our D to help us win games by keeping opponents from scoring, instead of acting more like a speedbump for the other teams' O's.

What is crazy is the notion M recruits D-1 scholarhip athletes who need to be taught fundamentals. Some need to grow, others need to learn high level techniques, and all need to learn the system. Fundamentals, i.e. -- blocking, tackling, ball security, etc., are things these players should have mastered if they are D-1 sholarship athletes. It is hard to imagine the coaches deciding to give a high school kid an offer knowing that he does not know how to tackle.

alot of d1 scholarship athletes are that because of athletic ability. Sure they have some technique but they learn most of it in college. Look at Will Campbell who in HS just out powered someone and has been working on weight/technique since arriving here. Or Roh after he committed he went through special training to learn new techniques before he came in to Michigan. Basically most D-1 Highschool players out athlete who ever they are going against.

Credits transferring to M is the first half of the problem. The second half is NCAA regulations now in place stating that student-athletes must have completed a certain percentage of the degree at the start of each academic year (fall semester). I believe the regulations for any third year student-athlete are:
- 1.80 minimum GPA
- Declare major
- 40% of declared major completed (can include general ed. requirements towards graduation.

There are some more requirements but they don't necessarily pertain to the "career" of a student-athletes and his/her academics. This is the big problem. If JUCO Player X has 60 credits at Junior College Y and only 30 of those credits transfer to UofM then he/she is nowhere near the necessary 40% of declared major completed.

I am new to mgoblog, but have followed it for years. just wondering if anyone has heard anything about that Miles Shuler out of New Jersey. He is listed as an athlete, but seems like he has some good speed and he even listed us in an the article on rivals about him going to the AA game. Any chance we land him?

Michigan can get opportunities at guys they wouldn't have had before through the JUCO path. The Byron Moore interview with Tom last week is an example. An elite USC recruit from Socal that we probably wouldn't have had a prayer with in the first place. Now USC is having trouble, he is in JUCO and has been contacted by Michigan. Door is open. So that is one type of kid.

Also, a school can't be everywhere recruiting every player. They might have a list of guys that they liked a lot but thought it was a waste of resources to go after. Then say a kid soured on his prior committment and reopened things during the year away. Or their original school might have done the same. A player you might not have offered before for whatever reason (numbers of available scholarships being one), you now have a shot with.

You all make good points about the academics. Seems like we could focus recruiting on that pool, and be out front making sure kids know what it will take during junior college to get qualified at Michigan. That is if we wanted to make that a route we go regularly.

To give you an example of how stupid Ann Arbor's admission policies are listen to this. I went to U of M-Dearborn for 2 years after high school. It is a freaking satellite campus of Ann Arbor and I had around 60 credits I wanted to transfer.

They fought me tooth and nail on about 15 of the credits even though it was the same university system. The classes they fought me on were legit classes (statistics, pol. sci., biology). I had to write a letter explaining why each class should transfer and offer a syllabus for each one.

It was so ridiculous that Ann Arbor fought so hard to not accept credits from within their own school system. End of story is that they finally accepted my classes.