Stef's Blog - a native London Southlander and unrepentant 'Conspiraloon™' who doesn't trust anyone, not even himself. Sometimes I take pictures. I also enjoy swearing immensely and think much faster than I can type, so each post comes guaranteed to include at last one confusing typo. OK?

Thursday, January 22, 2009

She's being far too modest

What? Only a little bit fascist? I think Keren's trying to hide her light under a bushel there

I also think that it's pretty unlikely that anyone would lay out a picnic lunch on an open hillside if they thought the people being butchered on the other side of the valley represented any real threat to their safety at all

There are currently 670 comments underneath this clip of espresso slurping slaughter-tourists and I haven't yet seen much in the way of a Hasbara 'explanation' debunking it in any way. So, I'm obliged to conclude that this is on the level

What I have seen, and am starting to see more frequently, is comments which cross the line between Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism

Militant Zionism is an ideology which people can choose to accept or reject, regardless of their ethnicity, and it is reasonable to hold people responsible for the ideologies they choose to follow

Pouring abuse on someone just because they belong to a particular ethnic group is pretty hard to justify, morally or logically

To give in to base Human emotion and become a race-hater is to play the Zionist game. It is to reduce yourself to Their level

Keren Levy is an unpleasant piece of hateful trash because she chooses to be one, she wasn't born one.

56 comments:

I think we have to look more closely at the term "human being".Is it enough to have a human form/body to be classified as human?or should we use some other yardstick to define the term?Animals behave in a far superior state of morality than the human race.Some thing has gone seriously wrong with the human model.

I understand where you're coming from but I'm not going to assume responsibility for this slaughter, just because I'm human, any more than I feel guilty about what the Nazis got up to (in spite of a sustained effort to try and make everyone feel so)

This smacks of Catholic doctrine of Original Sin. Someone pulled me up in a discussion this week for me saying that some, not many people, are born inherently wicked and murderous. That person argued that children come into this world free of malice and it's we grown ups who go to so much effort filing their heads with hate. She's had way more experience with kids than me so I didn't feel qualified to argue back

One of the bizarre ironies about the way the Israelis behave is how, after 60 years of pouring resources into educating people about the sins of the Nazis, the Israelis proceed to behave in exactly the same way

I know as much as I do about concepts such as genocide, ghettos, untermenschen and collective punishment because Jews, often Zionist Jews, have gone to great effort to publicize them.

Fuck it, even the guns on the Israeli tanks are made by the same company that armed Hitler's panzers

I think some people are born evil fuckers.Some people are turned into evil fucker(like the Ice man Kuklinski.some people are forced to become evil fuckers,,in war or in Military situations.I think there is no hard and fast rule.

In my experience, there are definite wrong ones, but they are defined by what they lack as recognisably human, rather than the presence of something called evil.I've got a fair few friends in the head shrinking business and they seem to have a consensual distinction about the difference between the congenitally and evironmentally disturbed.

I´ts my own belief that you are born with your character,,this is of course a Buddhist reincarnation type belief.This is obviously latent and unfolds as it were as you get older.Not only that but character can and is changed by circumstance and environment,,(the 3 wise monkeys spring to mind)

One of the bizarre ironies about the way the Israelis behave is how, after 60 years of pouring resources into educating people about the sins of the Nazis, the Israelis proceed to behave in exactly the same way

I might very likely be wrong, but my impression is that the Israeli state and society didn't so much care for the Nazi atrocities, but much more for the sorrows of the Jewish people.

How many Eichmanns did Israel bring to justice? How many monuments did they erect to the people that fought against fascism ("Righteous among the Nations" excluded)?

The Nazis could have slaughtered Millions of German Communists, Social-Democrats, Christians and Unemployed - and Israel would not have raised an eye-brow after the war.

That is the problem if you reduce Fascism to anti-Semitism - when in fact the problem is racism, or anti-humanism to be more precise.

I'm not surprised nor shocked in any way by this video.Wars and death have always drawn crowds. It's in our nature. At every battle of the American civil war, there was always a third army of cheering spectators having picnic.

I'm not being sarcastic here but I grew up believing that expressions like "Never again" were supposed to be generic, not race-specific

Growing up in Germany, my recollection of how history was mainly portrayed is this: Nazis gassing Jews and the Wehrmacht blitzing around Europe plus adjunct countries. So if you didn't look to close, never-again could have quite a narrow meaning.

And then there are those who took never-again to the other extreme, as the German greens in 1998, who used the German Luftwaffe to bomb civilians in Yugoslavia because someone told them that "Milosevic is the new Hitler".

Never-again can mean anything you want it to mean, it seams to me. Just close your eyes and pretend you know what the world looks like.

The closer I look, the more insane this world gets. Don't look so close and you get clear enemies plus an order you can understand & support.

Asking people to create an independent and universal moral construct of "human" (in the empathetic sense) is actually a supremely unnatural act of intellectual contortion, one that's notoriously difficult to maintain, and that many aren't really capable of.

People are naturally tribalistic, and tend to reserve their empathy for the groups they are personally affiliated with. Her opinion is, for whatever reasons, what is comfortable and convenient for her, and probably one that her social group supports and reinforces.

folks,I was brought up in Glasgow in the early 70s a catholic.Went to Holy Cross Primary which was a large primary school with nearly 1000 kids.It had an annex building half a mile away which was joined to a Protestant school and was separated by a wall.At break times bottles and bricks would occasionally rain over that wall.On one occasion the "Prody dogs" invaded the rather small annex and smashed the place up including some catholic kids.Even made the local newspaper!I got my first proper kicking at age 5 and a half.It was at dinner time.An older kid beat the shit out of me,a good old fashioned Glasgow head stomping.The other mothers who were there to collect their kids stood back and watched the kicking.No one intervened whilst yours truly got a proper kicking.Soooo!human nature has this odd streak in it.Glasgow was very tribal in those days.Rangers Celtic matches!!fuck me pitch battles.I´m sure if they had access to bombs and guns they would have used them!

meanwhile fast forward to now.

BBC scuppers TV fundraising appeal for Gaza victimsTags:

The BBC and other major broadcasters have broken a 45 year-old agreement with overseas aid charities by refusing to broadcast their fundraising appeal for Gaza.

The Disasters Emergency Committee launched its national appeal for Gaza today saying the devastation was so great the 12 leading British aid charities felt "compelled to act".http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5568735.ece?Submitted=trueallyc

Asking people to create an independent and universal moral construct of "human" (in the empathetic sense) is actually a supremely unnatural act of intellectual contortion, one that's notoriously difficult to maintain, and that many aren't really capable of.

But strangely, it's easy to see what's the right thing in 99% of cases.The real contortions are where you construct a morality which justifies acts such as israel's enormities.

People are naturally tribalistic, and tend to reserve their empathy for the groups they are personally affiliated with. Her opinion is, for whatever reasons, what is comfortable and convenient for her, and probably one that her social group supports and reinforces.

Well I would say conformist rather than tribal, that's a little essentialist for me.But it is why so much effort goes into narrowing our culture.

I was trying to stand by my assertion, that these people might not be objectively in danger, but that they experience themselves subjectively in great danger - surrounded by 300 Million Arabs.

Well they certainly picked the wrong place to steal. Except they have no choice in the matter as they have been chosen by (one version of) their sky god to occupy this land.I wonder if Lichtenstein feels the same, surrounded by all those europeans?

Tribal/ conformist, whatever you call it, people are prone to it and, if God wasn't being used as an excuse, the people who profit from conflict would have people fighting over differences in their haircuts or which games console they use

However, I see plenty of proof that people are inherently capable, in spite of a lifetime of attempted indoctrination, of rejecting hateful paradigms

whilst I have boundless reserves of misanthropy to draw on and, fuck me, is human nature flawed or is human nature flawed, I realised some time ago that, on balance, I must think people are worth caring about otherwise I wouldn't be so upset by what some of them do to each other

sure some people are woh caring about and trying to help if you can but some are just cunts and they will be till the day they die.Like this tosser for instance.The world is better off with out such characters.

I would go there to Gaza in person if I had the resources and didn't have commitments (namely, a partner and children that need me). But since I do have the latter, I'm going to concentrate on that responsibility and leave the aid work to those in a better position.

In this particular case I think these gawkers are in the mindset of watching a public execution, as well as the pyrotechnics of war.

When confronted to death and violence from a safe distance, our instinct is to become voyeurs/spectators.When confronted to death and violence from up close, especially against a helpless victim, our instinct is to join in.

Underneath than very thin crust of humanity we're apes, and it takes very little for our moral standards to be switched off and do horrible things without feeling any contradictions.

The same shit and the same thinking was going on in Yugoslavia not so long ago.

But strangely, it's easy to see what's the right thing in 99% of cases.The real contortions are where you construct a morality which justifies acts such as israel's enormities.

Most people would say (not you, necessarily) that it's clear what's right. Speaking as an American, this conceit has been disastrous for my country. The primary role of reason in human society is to justify whatever's convenient. This is how most people 'use' it, not as a tool to consistently apply some artificial moral ideals, or (even more unlikely) seek the 'truth,' but to justify whats convenient for their social group, and, if absolutely necessary, quell any cognitive dissonance with their supposed 'moral beliefs' (normally simply not thinking about it serves the same purpose at a much cheaper cost).

Let me try to explain what I meant when I said that universal moral 'empathy' amounts to an intellectual contortion for most. In America, many crimes are punishable not only by incarceration, but by what amounts to institutionalized rape. There isn't any sympathy for the victims of this policy, because they are prisoners, and therefore unconsciously disqualified from deserving empathy. In sociology, you could say they've gone into the 'out group.'

Thats a normal way for people to think and behave, in my experience. So while you're right that it might be intellectually contorted (that is, inconsistent) from the perspective of one's moral ideals to 'reserve' empathy, psychologically its the most natural thing in the world.

Well I think the ten commandments cover a fair amount of ground if you wanted a handy pre-packed and universal morality.But I wonder are we confusing a moral code with a justification?Why do we persist in presenting things as 'the moral thing' to do. Why was our last prime minister forced to fall back on the word of god to justify his unspeakable works rather than spell out the realpolitik?Perhaps because there is also a limit to our ability to reserve empathy/cognitively dissonate.

I don't like to copy/paste articles, but here's a refreshing piece by Gideon Levy in Haaretz. Although his opinions are minority, it's good to know some people have sense.

We have gained nothing in this war save hundreds of graves, some of them very small, thousands of maimed people, much destruction and the besmirching of Israel's image....Israel's actions have dealt a serious blow to public support for the state. While this does not always translate itself into an immediate diplomatic situation, the shockwaves will arrive one day. The whole world saw the images. They shocked every human being who saw them, even if they left most Israelis cold.

The conclusion is that Israel is a violent and dangerous country, devoid of all restraints and blatantly ignoring the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council, while not giving a hoot about international law. The investigations are on their way.

Graver still is the damage this will visit upon our moral spine. It will come from difficult questions about what the IDF did in Gaza, which will occur despite the blurring effect of recruited media.

Rob said: Animals behave in a far superior state of morality than the human race.

But they don't, animals would appear to be unaware of morality and operate on instinct, much like Dawkins&co try to say humans do. Some humans seem determined to prove him right.

Paul said: In my experience, there are definite wrong ones, but they are defined by what they lack as recognisably human, rather than the presence of something called evil.......But strangely, it's easy to see what's the right thing in 99% of cases.

The fact is it's human to have a capacity for good and/or evil. And a human is supposed to know that, and know the difference, can choose of their own will which to do, and is responsible for the consequences.

As someone else has pointed out, the concept of "recognisably human" is necessarily subjective. I recognise evil-doing as an all-too-human propensity.

Yes, the situation in the middle east is quite depressing. Yet I think the best is to develop a better understanding why things happen, why people do what they do. Without a clear understanding, a profound analysis, we end up with the believe that every action is an "unprovoked aggression inspired by unreasoning hate". People have their reasons, albeit subjective and not completely coherent. And if group A hates the people of group B, it is based on a assumption that group B is bad. This assumption may be unconscious, illogical, stupid, subjective and who knows what - yet it is an assumption that is some kind of para-rational process.

An former friend of mine was the opinion that the invasion in Iraq was good for the people there. I guess she thought it was the rational thing to do - as she quite clearly didn't hate Iraqis and wanted them to enjoy a better world. I didn't know how to break through this back then - she entrenched herself in this believe and it left me in despair. When I tried to challenge her believe with what I knew about the death toll she even went so far to say that it was worth a Million death. She didn't dispute the number, she didn't say that these people deserved to die. No, she thought it was a price worth paying because now the people in the Iraq of today live in a better world.

It really frustrated me to face so much ignorance. And it frustrated me that I didn't know how to handle this. Haven't talked much to her, as I really don't know what to say to her. I clearly lack the understanding to reach her somehow with facts. It was as if she said anything not to admit that she is wrong. She believed that she was right (as I believed it for me as well), yet you could clearly see that she hadn't had the slightest clue about Iraq which went further than the evening news.

I have to currently endure Tom Cruise playing the Ugly yet Good German, staring at me with an eye-patch from every second (or so it seems) billboard here. I don't like Stauffenberg very much as he never really showed much distance to all the Nazi race-hate and was quite a fan of an authoritarian state, being an "noble" man himself. Yet I know that there was genuine resistance here in Germany, made from all kinds of colours. Even during fascism most, but not all Germans were "evil" - and it certainly is not true for Israel today that all Israeli are some kind of "evil" (while pointing out that I don't believe in the good/evil concept).

Gideon Levy is part of the MSM in Israel, so he has to operate quite clearly in the constraints he finds there. Yet he tries to stay true to working for peace and is a voice of reason, as far as I can see. I think he deserves our support, if we want change the situation for the better. What else can we do, then to support those who work there for a better world - and refuse support to those who act contrary to what we think is right?

though I'm under the impression that we are, for some reason, we're supposed to exclude Israel off the list of potential barbarians

Well, we are told that if WE (as in any western country) use violence to achieve some goals, we are NOT being barbaric - no, we are civilized when we use violence. To paraphrase Vaclav Havel: "Our bombs are humanitarian in their character."

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