Expertise/Hit for prot

Post by saistain

Why do pally tanks need expertise and hit? All the guides I've read says get expertise and hit capped before any stats into mastery/parry/dodge. I don't have an issue with threat generation - DPS can't catch up to me in raids. And I'm sacrificing a lot of mitigation getting to the 8% hit cap.

Post by Zatox

Because you wan't to hit your target.

If you can't hit your target = 0 threat.

Post by Varaconn

Hit and Expertise are useful, they help you with threat, and are your highest threat stats up to a point. However, if you're not having major threat problems, then there's no reason to sacrifice defencive stats to stack hit or expertise. A lot of guides recommend hitting the cap because it is a real, tangible way of knowing that you have enough hit. However, if you're confident that you can feel it out without making it harder for yourself, then just do your thing. It really depends where you read. In my experience, EJ tends to recommend capping your Hit and Expertise, whereas Maintankadin tends to favour defencive stats. (Though, of course, they detail the benefits of Hit and Expertise).

Also, Hit has benefits outside the threat through damage area. Taunts are affected by your hit rating, and sometimes a missed taunt can be a major problem.

Post by pezz

Why do pally tanks need expertise and hit? All the guides I've read says get expertise and hit capped before any stats into mastery/parry/dodge.

Because if you theorycraft as a hobby the easiest way to do it is to do very complicated simulations of all of the threat stats to see the easiest way to max TPS. For whatever reason, threat is more popular to math out than survival.

Having said that, I have 2% hit and no problems. A random person in my guild told me taunts can't miss anymore so I'm going with that. But even if they can, I have two taunts and HoP if I need them all.

Post by Varaconn

Not disputing that we have several taunts, but I just thought I'd throw out there that they can indeed still miss, I've had it happen a couple of times already.

Post by Flonnette

The classic idea is that in PVE, a target can Parry/Dodge if attacked from the front. While the melee DPS simply moves around to attack the back of the target to avoid being missing by Parry, the tank is kind of stuck because no matter where they move the monster faces them. Especially for the first attack, a tank didn't necessarily want to miss that first important hit so it necessary have Expertise.

That said, it appears after 4.0 that although DPS threat is important, using taunts at the right moments appears to be just as effective because it appears taunts never "miss" now. It is good for tanks to have Expertise but not so "hyper dire critical" any more. With Vengeance mechanics a tank can probably leverage some nice DPS with Expertise and Hit as well.

Post by Magician22773

You need to read a more updated guide. As of right now, we don't "need" any more hit or exp than what we end up with from gear. There are several discussions, both here and on Maintankadin.com about this. You may find that EJ still has Hit and Exp weighted at the top, but I think even they are comming around to the "screw hit" mentality now.

Pezz is right, Hand of Reckoning can't miss now, so that is one of the reasons we don't need to worry about it. Im not sure about the other taunts.

If you use the recomended opener DP>Wings>AS>SotR you are going to have enough of a threat lead that current DPS should not be able to catch up. Your only realy worry would be if this opening salvo missed, and its not worth the price to worry about that small chance. If it does, taunt, and get caught back up. Remember, it is the DPS's responsibity to watch their aggro, and dump it when needed.

Post by Deseo

Pezz is right, Hand of Reckoning can't miss now, so that is one of the reasons we don't need to worry about it. Im not sure about the other taunts.

Can anyone find a source for this comment. I believe it to be correct but just want to confirm for the good of the discussion.

Thank you

Post by Synectics

Pezz is right, Hand of Reckoning can't miss now, so that is one of the reasons we don't need to worry about it. Im not sure about the other taunts.

Can anyone find a source for this comment. I believe it to be correct but just want to confirm for the good of the discussion.

Thank you

I'm too lazy to go look it up, but they changed it around the release of ICC for all taunts to be unable to miss.

Post by Deseo

If this is the case then hit cap may not be near as important (aside from threat issues). Should still worry about expertise because if a boss can parry you, it will get the parry-haste bonus. Or has this been changed as well?

Post by pezz

If this is the case then hit cap may not be near as important (aside from threat issues). Should still worry about expertise because if a boss can parry you, it will get the parry-haste bonus. Or has this been changed as well?

Most everything had parry hasting turned off in 3.3 (the notable exceptions being Sindy and Halion, the non-notable exception being LDW because she, unsurprisingly, hit like a girl). Maintankadin typically has an ongoing project of trying to work out what bosses have it disabled and what don't, which is what I refer to for that kind of information. So far, I'd say roughly 85-90% of bosses haven't been examined closely enough yet, but the remaining 10-15% have parry hasting disabled, it seems.

If that trend continues Expertise will have 0 relevance as a survivability stat.

Post by Varaconn

Definitely not all taunts, I've already seen my taunts missing on a regular basis while in Cata regs. My hit rating is abysmal as of now, so it happens quite often.

Post by Lienka

Definitely not all taunts, I've already seen my taunts missing on a regular basis while in Cata regs. My hit rating is abysmal as of now, so it happens quite often.

SC or it didn't happen - i have reforged absolutely everything into mastery (or dodge/parry when mastery is allready pressent) and i have yet to miss a taunt

On the Parry haste note,i believe at this point the only known Cata boss with parry haste is Argaloth, so never mind the expertise either - I personally still have SoT glyphed, since its such an insane amount in a glyph spot that I really wouldn't know what else to do with

Post by saistain

When you're expertise capped for dodge, your parry is still 8% for 88 bosses. Is it even worth doing something about that?

Post by atomicwolf22

When you're expertise capped for dodge, your parry is still 8% for 88 bosses. Is it even worth doing something about that?

What? (redneck moment)

Post by meatpie

What? (redneck moment)

the dodge expertise cap (sometimes called the "softcap") is 26 expertise rating.

the parry expertise cap (sometimes called the "hardcap") is 56 expertise rating.

It is very hard to get to the hardcap for expertise at the current level of gear available. Edit (and still have good avoidance)

Personally I dont worry about hit or expertise and i've not had any problems.... yet :)

Post by Shocker300

Personally, I sit at about 4-5% hit. Just because I have no problem holding threat, so I delve into avoidance more. Expertise is wonderful capped. Or else you will have annoying instances where your sacred duty has proc'd and it gets parried, forfeiting the proc. Very annoying.

Post by Varaconn

SC or it didn't happen - i have reforged absolutely everything into mastery (or dodge/parry when mastery is allready pressent) and i have yet to miss a taunt

On the Parry haste note,i believe at this point the only known Cata boss with parry haste is Argaloth, so never mind the expertise either - I personally still have SoT glyphed, since its such an insane amount in a glyph spot that I really wouldn't know what else to do with

Not in a position to provide a screenshot right now. However, kindly provide any indication that taunts can no longer miss, and it won't be necessary.

Edit:

Went looking over old patch notes for this supposed universal taunt change, especially around the release of ICC as noted. The only thing I found that was related to taunts at all was a change regarding the diminishing returns on taunts.

Edit2:

Further reading of various forums show that if this was indeed changed, it wasn't documented, it's not in any patch notes. If it was changed, it was with Cataclysm. Is it possible that they just changed the miss chance of taunts? I've seen a few miss already. Not dangerous situations, but they did miss.

Edit3:

All I'm finding is a bunch of people talking about it and assuming it no longer misses. Maybe I'm crazy, maybe I mistook a miss as a taunt and it wasn't (though I distinctly remember the mob not being taunted each time, but anyway) I'd really like to see some sort of confirmation for this, for peace of mind.

Post by TKitch

My bet would be 4.0.1 had the change.

I did, however, tank a heroic in holy gear and I was popping RD and HoR regularly. I don't think any of them missed during the entire run.

And as it was holy gear, I had literally 0% to hit and expertise.

Post by Varaconn

I wonder what's happening with my taunts then? No note in 4.0.1 about taunts being changed. I've already had a few instances of them not working. Then again, the 4.0.1 notes were horrible and vague, so it could have been then.

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