You and I both know climbers with years of experience that climb pretty hard that have some less than ideal habits and practices. I can personally tell you about plenty of good climbers with decades of experience that have shitty belay practices or do some things I regard as sketchy. Sure, I don't go around telling them that they're going to die, but I sure as hell speak up if I think they're going to impact MY safety. Climbing ability, mileage, and experience are important...but they are not the be-all end-all of my decision making. I like to try to make informed decisions based on available data as well as my and other's experience. It's called thinking for yourself and not just following whatever Tommy is doing on Dawn Wall. You can post all the pictures you like of how much and how hard you climb, but I'll take the opinion of someone like rgold over yours any day...someone with experience and the ability to rationally support their choices and not say it must be ok since you climb more pitches and climb harder than anyone else. You really have stooped to the same bullshit that you have accused Jay of.

BTW how is there that much sun in Squamish, especially this time of year? I thought it rained there all the time!? Hell, it's even snowing in North Carolina right now.

and tell me how one would die clipping ONE loop of a daisy any more than any other sling

i dont climb harder than many people ...or even more ... but i do go out and climb as much as and as hard i can, unlike a few of these RC "experts" above

the reality is what people tell you to do on intraweb forums has little relevance on outdoor climbing

what people go off about on RC, isnt whats even remotely likely to kill you or get you hurt

again i ask how clipping a SINGLE loop of a daisy is deadly than a PAS, or a sling ... especially a nylon daisy

the difference between me and some fun RCers ... i dont tell people that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way ... i DO however tell those RCers who do that they really have no relevance, and they get upset

squamish has a lot of rain ... but youll generally get at least 1-2 + days a week of dryish weather even in winter ... the hardest slabs up here get sent in winter

once its gets warmer next month ill be climbing 3+ days a week, but dont worry, theres still reception everywhere in squamish for plenty of intraweb fun at belays

you can call me afraid of my own shadow, but you better take more whippers than me

you can call me a non-climber poser if you want, but you damn well better climb MORE than me ...

so go ahead and show us how much you climbed this week, since you folks are the "experts"

You really have a lot of your self worth and ego wrapped up in climbing. You're seriously defending your climbing to a bunch of anonymous people on a climbing site that you yourself troll and view as a joke?

Get some help man.

While a good rant you're contradicting yourself too much. This can be a good troll tactic but try being a bit more subtle.

a few more non-climbing totally posed photos with awwwsum photoshop ... from this week

partner cleaning my gear on the "first 5.12 in north america" ... realistically it is a one move wonder with most of it being 5.9 ... took a whipper on a micronut and tested out my 20$ deadly harness ... partner was probably a bit pissed as he thought it was "mostly 5.9" which it was

my partner on the classic ultrasoft squamish "10-", really a 5.8, before he took a whipper on my 30$ rock empire cam ... god i luv it when other people test your gear that the intrawebbers tell ya yr gonna die on

You and I both know climbers with years of experience that climb pretty hard that have some less than ideal habits and practices. I can personally tell you about plenty of good climbers with decades of experience that have shitty belay practices or do some things I regard as sketchy. Sure, I don't go around telling them that they're going to die, but I sure as hell speak up if I think they're going to impact MY safety. Climbing ability, mileage, and experience are important...but they are not the be-all end-all of my decision making. I like to try to make informed decisions based on available data as well as my and other's experience. It's called thinking for yourself and not just following whatever Tommy is doing on Dawn Wall. You can post all the pictures you like of how much and how hard you climb, but I'll take the opinion of someone like rgold over yours any day...someone with experience and the ability to rationally support their choices and not say it must be ok since you climb more pitches and climb harder than anyone else. You really have stooped to the same bullshit that you have accused Jay of.

BTW how is there that much sun in Squamish, especially this time of year? I thought it rained there all the time!? Hell, it's even snowing in North Carolina right now.

and tell me how one would die clipping ONE loop of a daisy any more than any other sling

i dont climb harder than many people ...or even more ... but i do go out and climb as much as and as hard i can, unlike a few of these RC "experts" above

the reality is what people tell you to do on intraweb forums has little relevance on outdoor climbing

what people go off about on RC, isnt whats even remotely likely to kill you or get you hurt

again i ask how clipping a SINGLE loop of a daisy is deadly than a PAS, or a sling ... especially a nylon daisy

the difference between me and some fun RCers ... i dont tell people that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way ... i DO however tell those RCers who do that they really have no relevance, and they get upset

squamish has a lot of rain ... but youll generally get at least 1-2 + days a week of dryish weather even in winter ... the hardest slabs up here get sent in winter

once its gets warmer next month ill be climbing 3+ days a week, but dont worry, theres still reception everywhere in squamish for plenty of intraweb fun at belays

I never once said anything about clipping into a daisy. You're talking to the wrong person. You are still under the false assumption that how much you climb, how hard you climb, or how many people are doing something are the only relevant indicators of whether something is safe or not. They're important, sure, but there is nothing wrong with lab testing, theory, or just plain old reasoning and common sense. Sometimes they give us ideas that just never occurred to climbers out in the field. You may not tell others here "that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way", but you pretty much do something that is almost as bad. You tell people here that they're going to be just fine doing something just because everyone else is doing it, or worse yet, because Sonny Trotter does it. It's fine to offer up an argument as to why you don't agree with someones opinion, but you don't do that. So really, you're no better than most of the RC'ers that you make fun of. Or, maybe I'm just bitter that it's snowing and I'm stuck for the next couple of months with work and won't be climbing all that much.

PS, people's opinions aren't always a matter of safety either. Sometimes they're just opinions on how they like to do something. Sometimes, they even have good reasons for those opinions. Using a daisy for cleaning anchors is a good example of this. I think that using one for this purpose is silly. Not because I think it is unsafe, but because I generally don't want to carry extra crap up the climb and because there is almost always extra draws/slings on hand to clip into the anchors. So, I'd offer my opinion that a daisy is not the best use of a noob's money, at least for anchor cleaning. See there...I can offer an opinion without belittling anyone and can give (what I think) are good reasons for that opinion that have nothing to do with how much/hard I climb or whether I have a picture of Beth Rodden using a daisy. You should try it.

a few more non-climbing totally posed photos with awwwsum photoshop ... from this week

partner cleaning my gear on the "first 5.12 in north america" ... realistically it is a one move wonder with most of it being 5.9 ... took a whipper on a micronut and tested out my 20$ deadly harness ... partner was probably a bit pissed as he thought it was "mostly 5.9" which it was

[image]http://i46.tinypic.com/2eanqfc.jpg [/image]

my partner on the classic ultrasoft squamish "10-", really a 5.8, before he took a whipper on my 30$ rock empire cam ... god i luv it when other people test your gear that the intrawebbers tell ya yr gonna die on

[image]http://i49.tinypic.com/358xesx.jpg[/image]

ya should just go climb

Those look like nice lines. It looks like you had some unusually dry weather in your area this past week.

I'd love go get out but alas it's winter and the pin in my shoulder doesn't agree with ice climbing anymore. For the next couple of months I'll be cast into the gym for some short 45 foot climbs on plastic.

I never once said anything about clipping into a daisy. You're talking to the wrong person. You are still under the false assumption that how much you climb, how hard you climb, or how many people are doing something are the only relevant indicators of whether something is safe or not. They're important, sure, but there is nothing wrong with lab testing, theory, or just plain old reasoning and common sense. Sometimes they give us ideas that just never occurred to climbers out in the field. You may not tell others here "that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way", but you pretty much do something that is almost as bad. You tell people here that they're going to be just fine doing something just because everyone else is doing it, or worse yet, because Sonny Trotter does it. It's fine to offer up an argument as to why you don't agree with someones opinion, but you don't do that. So really, you're no better than most of the RC'ers that you make fun of. Or, maybe I'm just bitter that it's snowing and I'm stuck for the next couple of months with work and won't be climbing all that much.

i tell people to USE THEIR BRAINS ...

if they dont want to use daisies ... thats up to them ... if they do ... again thats up to them, which is fine if you clip one loop at a time

make a REALISTIC assessment of whats going to kill you ... it aint what everyone on the intraweb is screaming about ...

you learn these from going out with someone who knows (not some intraweb top rope tough guy) and climbing as much as you can and practicing those skills OVER AND OVER again

once you climb enough youll end up in situations where not everything is black and white ... youll be totally out of gear, youll be cold tired and hungry, youll be stuck, youll have dropped shiet, youll have a rappel rope not long enough

and its the SKILLS and your BRAIN which will get you through those situations

all the discussion about deadly this, deadly that, death biners, dont use an autoblock, real climbers dont use gri gris, etc ... will be totally useless then (and always)

if you climb enough, youll also climb with partners who doesnt do it your way, or the "RC do it my way or die" ... youre simply going to have to make a judgement and use yr brain ...

like i said what "climbing experts" yak about on the intrawebs forums .. and what happens every day with "safe" climbers, or any climbers, including people who have climbed more and/or longer than the intraweb experts is extreme

intraweb forums generally have no real relevance to climbing in the real world ... they are however great fun

the one place to "learn" on RC is the A&I forum ... those are real life scenarios

bitter? ... just take a trip ... or move

PS ... as for "belittling" ... i belittle the belittlers generally, if you havent noticed ... the tend to get a bit mad about it

I never once said anything about clipping into a daisy. You're talking to the wrong person. You are still under the false assumption that how much you climb, how hard you climb, or how many people are doing something are the only relevant indicators of whether something is safe or not. They're important, sure, but there is nothing wrong with lab testing, theory, or just plain old reasoning and common sense. Sometimes they give us ideas that just never occurred to climbers out in the field. You may not tell others here "that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way", but you pretty much do something that is almost as bad. You tell people here that they're going to be just fine doing something just because everyone else is doing it, or worse yet, because Sonny Trotter does it. It's fine to offer up an argument as to why you don't agree with someones opinion, but you don't do that. So really, you're no better than most of the RC'ers that you make fun of. Or, maybe I'm just bitter that it's snowing and I'm stuck for the next couple of months with work and won't be climbing all that much.

i tell people to USE THEIR BRAINS ...

Speak for yourself, but even daisies are rated higher than my brain when it comes to strength.

a nylon daisy wont fail ... an individual pocket might blow in rare circumstances, but the damn thing is a fully rated sling end to end

Yup, and the idea is that if the bar tacked loop that you're clipped into did blow (partially or fully) then it acts like a screamer dissipating some of the force on the climber.

Whoever had that idea needs to think again. Daisies aren't Screamers. Screamers are designed for the stitching to rip. Daisies are not. When the pockets of a daisy rip out, the webbing itself can be damaged. Daisies have failed in factor-2 falls in the field and in the lab, as Chris Harmston, former BD Quality Assurance Manager explains:

Daisy's are weaker than runners because, as the pockets rip out, damage to the webbing occurs at the pocket tacks. In static testing the pockets rip out until you are in the standard runner configuration. The web breaks at the damaged area of one of the pocket tacks.

In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor 2 falls and pop all pockets. Dynamic loading is not the same as the slow pull we use for batch testing and rating. Runner materials do not stretch like your ropes does. Use your rope for your primary anchor and use the daisy as a backup and as the adjustability. I have heard reports of daisy's breaking in factor 2 aid falls. The samples I have seen that broke in the field were fairly well worn. Daisy's get worn quite quickly and their strength degrades accordingly. Use your rope as the primary anchor!

all this was hashed out on RC before ... which of course is about all telling people to do stuff only your or my way ....

just one of the ways that youll die on RC that has no bearing on what happens in the real world

Hi,

I currently have a few Yates Daisies. I have been told be various "experts" that the blowing a single 4 kN pocket on a daisy can compromise the entire 22 kN sling itself, thus causing the failure of the entire daisy.

Could you let me know if this is true?

Thanks for you help,

.....

As long as you are connected in CORRECTLY to the daisy and not clipping between loops(Death Clipping). Our daisy's will pull the pockets at 4-5kN without damaging the structural integrity of the webbing. The daisy still tests over 22kN end to end. Hope this helps

all this was hashed out on RC before ... which of course is about all telling people to do stuff only your or my way ....

just one of the ways that youll die on RC that has no bearing on what happens in the real world

Hi,

I currently have a few Yates Daisies. I have been told be various "experts" that the blowing a single 4 kN pocket on a daisy can compromise the entire 22 kN sling itself, thus causing the failure of the entire daisy.

Could you let me know if this is true?

Thanks for you help,

.....

As long as you are connected in CORRECTLY to the daisy and not clipping between loops(Death Clipping). Our daisy's will pull the pockets at 4-5kN without damaging the structural integrity of the webbing. The daisy still tests over 22kN end to end. Hope this helps

John Yates

So, Yates claims their daisies are not susceptible to the failure mode that BD found. BD does not disclose what brand of daisies they found failed, so it cannot be determined whether BD observed this failure mode in Yates daisies. Thus, as usual, what point you're trying to make, if any, is unclear.

In the unlikely event that you can follow simple logic, you should easily be able to see that your argument, which amounts to the following, is ludicrous:

1. BD found that some properly clipped daisies can fail in a factor-2 fall. 2. Yates claims that their own daisies cannot. 3. Therefore, BD's findings can safely be ignored.

So, Yates claims their daisies are not susceptible to the failure mode that BD found. BD does not disclose what brand of daisies they found failed, so it cannot be determined whether BD observed this failure mode in Yates daisies. Thus, as usual, what point you're trying to make, if any, is unclear.

In the unlikely event that you can follow simple logic, you should easily be able to see that your argument, which amounts to the following, is ludicrous:

1. BD found that some properly clipped daisies can fail in a factor-2 fall. 2. Yates claims that their own daisies cannot. 3. Therefore, BD's findings can safely be ignored.

Jay

and in the real world this has no relevance, if youre taking FF2 falls on static materials, you should re-evaluate everything you do about climbing ...

but DAMN you just HAVE TO BE RIGHT mista jay ...

heres a REAL drop test that camp did on a dyneema daisy ... but dont worry it didnt break and no dummies died

Pot...kettle...black. See, once again, someone has provided a logical argument to support an opinion and you do nothing but belittle them, and the rest of the users on this website for that matter. Same old song.

Pot...kettle...black. See, once again, someone has provided a logical argument to support an opinion and you do nothing but belittle them, and the rest of the users on this website for that matter. Same old song.

Belittling mistah jay is a classic example of belittling the belittlers ...

Go cry me a river with yr crocodile tears

The same old daisy argument and the same "evidence" has been hashed out a million tines before

The real story? ... It has no relevance to how and what people climb in the real world ... And clipping a single daisy loop aint ehats going to kill u out there ...

Go out and climb today ... Ill be back for more senseless intraweb fun after a few pitches

Weird that people cry about be belittling the belittlers ... When theres active threads about burqas and women who arent good climbers by someone who doesnt even climb ... And much more RC goodness

Pot...kettle...black. See, once again, someone has provided a logical argument to support an opinion and you do nothing but belittle them, and the rest of the users on this website for that matter. Same old song.

Belittling mistah jay is a classic example of belittling the belittlers ...

Go cry me a river with yr crocodile tears

The same old daisy argument and the same "evidence" has been hashed out a million tines before

The real story? ... It has no relevance to how and what people climb in the real world ... And clipping a single daisy loop aint ehats going to kill u out there ...

Go out and climb today ... Ill be back for more senseless intraweb fun after a few pitches

Weird that people cry about be belittling the belittlers ... When theres active threads about burqas and women who arent good climbers by someone who doesnt even climb ... And much more RC goodness

So, Yates claims their daisies are not susceptible to the failure mode that BD found. BD does not disclose what brand of daisies they found failed, so it cannot be determined whether BD observed this failure mode in Yates daisies. Thus, as usual, what point you're trying to make, if any, is unclear.

In the unlikely event that you can follow simple logic, you should easily be able to see that your argument, which amounts to the following, is ludicrous:

1. BD found that some properly clipped daisies can fail in a factor-2 fall. 2. Yates claims that their own daisies cannot. 3. Therefore, BD's findings can safely be ignored.

Jay

and in the real world this has no relevance, if youre taking FF2 falls on static materials, you should re-evaluate everything you do about climbing ... ]

You're wrong. In the real word, according to Chris Harmston, daisies have failed from factor-2 falls.

Chris Harmston wrote:

I have heard reports of daisy's breaking in factor 2 aid falls. The samples I have seen that broke in the field were fairly well worn. Daisy's get worn quite quickly and their strength degrades accordingly. Use your rope as the primary anchor!

again mistah jay ... if you are taking FF2 falls in the real world cleaning your anchors, and setting up raps ... you have serious skill issues ...

in the real world people dont go off and take FF2 falls cleaning anchors on static materials if they have any brains at all ...

perhaps youd simply provide an accident report where someone cleaning anchors, or setting up for raps has died because their daisy they clipped to a SINGLE loop broke

but then this is RC ..

i presume you wear your helmet on EVERY climb .... since you are MUCH more likely to die from that than the deadly daisies

or are ya just being hypocritical and WANT TO BE RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT

please provide me with the exact details of these tests, including the fall length, the weights, the harness setup, and whether a rescue dummy was used ... since you are quoting em over and over again ...

i have provided you with the details of the CAMP test where no dummies died

more useless senseless (but FUN!!!) arguments which has no relevance in how people climb in the real world