An extremist may argue that if you don't believe in Jesus (or whomever) then you go to hell. So one that lives off the grid in a jungle isolated from civilization and has never heard of him will go to hell? That's an example of ridiculous arrogance. Either that, or Christians have one really nasty God, which also goes against general teachings, and is typical of extemist's stance.

Quick argument: Some people think they have the antidote for a universal infection. What should they do?

This line of thought actually argues against atheism because isolated primitive groups tend to already believe in deities, while atheism is largely limited to highly educated and connected people who grow up under Christian influence.

Quick argument: Some people think they have the antidote for a universal infection. What should they do?

Prove it works?

QuietOC wrote:

This line of thought actually argues against atheism because isolated primitive groups tend to already believe in deities, while atheism is largely limited to highly educated and connected people who grow up under Christian influence.

It was just 1 possible example of 1 possible extremist group.

_________________People who put money and political ideology ahead of truth and ethics are neither﻿ patriots nor human beings.

It is pretty well establish that religion in general has its benefits. Religion is probably unavoidable. I do not see that modern atheism as being the best religion. Generally religions are properly identified from the outside.

Most things in life can't really be proved. Some things can be disproved, but it often takes a lot of effort. If may paraphrase someone, we all need to be more critical of our own beliefs than those of others.

Belief by itself, right or wrong, doesn't constitute extremist views. Now if they failed clicnical trials and then claimed there's a conspiracy to stop them then we may be headed in the extremist area.

_________________People who put money and political ideology ahead of truth and ethics are neither﻿ patriots nor human beings.

Private religion is an oxymoron. Individual's beliefs are not any kind of religion--okay, maybe a very sick kind.

So the parent(s) who taught their children about their religion were not actually brainwashing the children, but were actually sickening their childrens minds.

This is why I classify teaching religion to children as "child abuse", the next step from this is witholding ANY education except that of the bullshit in their religious book.

Its all very well teaching children things that will help them in future life, but teaching them some junk written as childrens story's hundreds of years ago as "truth" is just plain wrong. You may as well teach your child that the Harry Potter stories are "true" factual events that happened in the past, and HP must be worshipped.

The sick minds are the ones who teach children things that are plain wrong as the "gospel" truth. But as we know most religions are mixed with threats, punishment, guilt and blessings, some are more carrot than stick, but the outcome is the same, brainwashing / child-abuse.

WOW ... that was quite to the point, and actually ... that could have been written by me really.

I remember in primary school, when attending to religion lessons was duty for us children, the teacher at the time felt pleasure in discriminating and bullying the weak in our class.
And I still remember when he picked out this italian guy and at one point the little discussion between them got heated that much (the italian guy didn't say ANYTHING wrong!), that the teacher hit him with his FIST !! on his backside, as hard as he could !!
Nobody of us children dared to make any noise, be it breathing or gulping.
It was dead silent in the class for minutes and the only thing you could hear was this italian guy crying rivers of desperation.

Please, those who claim that we must have faith and all that jazz, would you say that instills trust ?
Or maybe you don't really give a damn ? All you want is the same like this sick teacher ... feeling pleasure in making others suffer ?

I have been healed from believing in any kind of religion.
My experiences, many similar to the one above, are enough for me to feel sick for the rest of my life.

For those religious people who think they can manipulate me ... Go'n f***k yourself.

Atheism is not a religion, but the lack of it. It is not a belief, but a point of view.

There is nothing wrong with teaching religion, as long as it's not one-sided. I've had lessons in religion at school and it taught about the differences and the similarities between religions, not just the main religion here.
Being taught about religion can give some insight into different cultures, and some of the habits and traditions of the people of a certain religion. To understand other people from an antropological point of view, it is even necessary to know about different religions.

Atheism is not a religion, but the lack of it. It is not a belief, but a point of view.

I feel that you dont really understand what Athiesm is. Athiesm is not a religion, but it is a belief - a belief that god doesnt exist, in exactly the same way that other people have a belief that god does exist.

As far as Athiesm being a point of view is concerned, believing in an "invisible, voicless, anthropomorphic personification" is just plain crazy.

Just describe to a Psychologist how your belief of god manifests itself and they will give you drugs and lock you away, tell them you believe in god and they leave you alone - there is no difference.

... my laugh froze and I had to clear my throat.
Can you only imagine remotely, how it must feel for a child ?

That I have given up on man kind, and unfortunately resigned from having any faith ... isn't that like getting prepared for the covin ?
I don't like that thought either.

Who would stand against the evil, if not the ones who are still mentally healthy ?
Yes, it does look like we're in the vast minority, so what am I hoping for ?

For a miracle ? Naah
For a sign of god ? Pffff
For a natural disaster ? hmm ...

... maybe !? Maybe a lot of things gonna change if we start from scratch, and a disaster on global scale is unfortunate for us (many will die), but a new chance at the same time.

Maybe something like that has to FORCE us, to correct the mistakes of our past.

A new beginning after nature has shown us who's the stronger one.
Yeah, that's typical for us humans, isn't it ?
Going as far as we can, having crossed the border of what's acceptable long time ago.
Can't get our throat full, always more, more & more again.

And then, instead of having our fair share, we gonna loose everything.
Yes, back to zero.

I, for my part, am ok to sacrifice or risk my life to restore justice. But that's just me.

Imagine for a minute how it could be. We don't have to have people suffering and dying.
It doesn't have to be like that. But as I said, if our own ass is not burning, we won't become active.
We got slapped in our face day by day, and what do we do ?
We slapp back those who are the most easiest to slap, most likely the innocent, but who cares ?

The solution is so easy: Get rid of the slappers. Get rid of slapping.

... How close can the human mind come to the truth and how can it grasp the truth?

Very interesting point you mention here.

How close to god can we humans possibly get ?

Do people, who dedicate their lifes to god, believe that by doing so they can get a little closer to God ?
Do they really believe God would reward such thinking ?
Do they really believe God wants us to do that at all ?
If someone gets rewarded, who is going to lose out and on what grounds ?

I have to ask: how much more arrogant can you get, if you really think that way.
How much more pain can you create by dividing the society in believers and non-believers, instead of focusing onto the real issues which we have ?
Is there more than 1 God existing ? If not, why do we have different beliefs then ?

How much power is puffed into empty space because of that ?
Why do I get the feeling, that every discussion (face to face) related to"God" escalates at one point ?

That's so ridiculous ... because from there you can see how hard some people try to be closer to God than others, but in reality they are on the exact same level like EVERYBODY else.
Nobody is closer or further away from God, no matter how much you wished you were.

Have we humans prooven being able to handle the biggest problems of our world, in the past or the present ?
No, we maybe administer the problems, but we don't solve them.
On this grounds, do you still trust us to have the question of God sorted ?

Cov,
A lot of people can't handle the thought that there is no purpose to us being on this planet. The idea that we are here through fluke, because of a random interaction of chemicals that , 4 billion years ago, caused some primitive bacteria to arise. They think that because we think and reason about things, there must be a reason for us to exist.
These same people can also not accept that when they die there will be nothing - no heaven, no hell, just nothing. That they will cease to exist like the countless millions of people, animals, plants, microbes that have gone before. In terms of the planet, and certainly in terms of the universe, humans are as nothing. Insignificant in the scheme of things. If humanity was to die out, the earth would continue quite happily, new forms of life would evolve and perhaps even intelligent life. After the Permian extinction, 95% of all life on earth was wiped out, but from the 5% that survived, new life evolved. Among that new life were dinosaurs and they in turn were wiped out 65m years ago to leave a void that was filled by mammals and ultimately us.
How can we be so arrogant as to think that we are the pinnacle of life and that a higher being created us? and indeed created the world for us?
It's absolute garbage to think that. The whole idea is so out of date, it comes from thousands of years ago when people did not understand why the world was as it was and they were scared of it. Some people are still scared of it, and of dying.
Just live your life knowing that it's the only chance you are going to get and try to live it in as good a way as you can. Stay true to yourself and be fair to other people. go to your grave with a clear conscience and die content.
That's not to say that there is anything wrong with christian values, I think they do represent a good way to live by.
That's my philosophy anyway.
Sorry for the stream of consciousness ramble - half a bottle of wine loosens ones tongue!

Cov,A lot of people can't handle the thought that there is no purpose to us being on this planet.

Wow judge56988 ! ... your whole last posting reflects exactly what I think.It is also my experience, that a big percentage of people are not able to leave cetain questions unanswered.Religion is a subject which has never been answered for me that way, that I can even think of accepting it as a possiblity.Too many hypocrytical people who claim to have found the perfect answer while, at the same time struggle to lead their lifes.Isn't that like someone trying to advise sombody else about something they don't know by themsleves ?

I just remember a neighbour who is unemployed for a while now and he told me that he finds it difficult to structure his free time available.He needs to get a work assigned to him in order to feel useful agagin.That's what apparently fills his life with sense.

Well, this is something I have difficulties to verify because my free time is rather too short than too long.Meaning that I don't feel bored, even if I lived on a remote island.He, for example, would die out of boredom I guess.But alright, in order to feel empathy for him, I need to acknowledge that not everybody can manage their lifes independently.Some people need one person opposite to them, to confirm their integrity and their value (?).

We humans are supposed to be a social bunch.None of us is born as a single warrior, still it seems as if many are left alone as soon as it becomes complicated.We have become a selfish society where families are replaced by households of singles or couples.What happens to the parents ? They live seperate from their children, but why ?Do they want it that way ? Having worked voluntary in a home for elderly, I know that they don't.Hell, their children hardly ever come to visit them.How many old people have died a sad and lonely death ?Nobody cares about them and I wonder why ?Do we only credit those who are proven to be useful ?That would comply with our way of living, optimized to performance.

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... They think that because we think and reason about things, there must be a reason for us to exist.

Yeah, where does this need originate I wonder ?Some people need a constant stream of reassurance that they're more "worth" than others.In fact, some people have the image of themselves in their heads, that they're world champions in what they do.Why would they believe in something so unrealstic ?Does it still wonder you, in what people are able to believe ?

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... These same people can also not accept that when they die there will be nothing - no heaven, no hell, just nothing.That they will cease to exist like the countless millions of people, animals, plants, microbes that have gone before.In terms of the planet, and certainly in terms of the universe, humans are as nothing. Insignificant in the scheme of things.If humanity was to die out, the earth would continue quite happily, new forms of life would evolve and perhaps even intelligent life.After the Permian extinction, 95% of all life on earth was wiped out, but from the 5% that survived, new life evolved. Among that new life were dinosaurs and they in turn were wiped out 65m years ago to leave a void that was filled by mammals and ultimately us ...

There it is again. The urgent need to have the answer while there is none.Wishful thinking and betraying not only themselves but everybody else around them.Because if you wish it so much to be true, you might start pretending it was.And that might make you feel comfortable that way that you just decide to keep it.

Yeah, you play a game. The game is called "I know it's a lie but it feels so good".Eric Berne has analyzed in deep about adults playing these and other strange "games".

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... How can we be so arrogant as to think that we are the pinnacle of life and that a higher being created us? and indeed created the world for us?It's absolute garbage to think that. The whole idea is so out of date, it comes from thousands of years ago when people did not understand why the world was as it was and they were scared of it. Some people are still scared of it, and of dying ...

I had a discussion with my foster mum (71) today, about the children of some neighbours of hers.They are so well brought up that they seemed much more mature than appropriate / in average for their ages (5 and 11).

I said that in my opinion, age was not related to being elidgeble for respect.If an old person appears very rude to me, I would not spend any respect due to his/her age.On the other side, if a (very) young person appears mature and friendly to me, I'd respect this child with all courtesy I can offer.

Can we now conclude that being arrogant is like being immature ?Therefore, does it make sense to say that adults (no matter the age) who have an attention deficiency, are nothing else but immature individuals who have stopped growing (inside) ?

Further, wouldn't that be an explanation for why THESE adults invent fairy tales to keep a myth alive as if it was fact ?

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... Just live your life knowing that it's the only chance you are going to get and try to live it in as good a way as you can. Stay true to yourself and be fair to other people. go to your grave with a clear conscience and die content.That's not to say that there is anything wrong with christian values, I think they do represent a good way to live by.That's my philosophy anyway.

Well, I have found myself in every single word you said in this posting.
And for that, I'd like to thank you sir.

To add to what Judge said: Some people are not comfortable being anything but followers. As a child one typically has 2 protectors. Later in life who's looking after you? It's like a reverse empty nest syndrome. Not saying it's right or wrong, smart or dumb, it's just a state of mind.

Religion is another of man's tools. It fills a need for some, for others it's just a means to an end, and a bad one at that. What one does with it says more about them than the religion itself. Also - When is going to commit a criminal act, if religion didn't exist, they would simply use something else to get what they want. It's not like the evil would not occur. Obviously that whole business with Catholic priests, the normal set of checks and balances required for things to work properly was not working. That too is simply something that certain people wanted, and we now see the end results of that mistaken notion.

_________________People who put money and political ideology ahead of truth and ethics are neither﻿ patriots nor human beings.

What maths will allow me to accurately and completely describe turbulence?

Turbulence is described by rather simple equations, a lot of chaotic systems follow rather simple equations. The big thing is they are non-linear--though that isn't the only requirement.

I am atheistic about the god Chance (a.k.a. luck, randomness, etc.) We see chaos, but chaos isn't random. Chaos is determined but unpredictable.

As far as we can know all space-time is fully determined. If you happen to disbelieve in determinism though all kinds of irrational things are possible. Instead of indeterminism what we actually find in reality is strict unpredictability. We fully understand how things work, but we lack the perfect knowledge of how things are, and thus are unable to predict future outcomes even with all the proven equations and evidence in hand.

This is one rational evidence of divinity: the possession of accurate foreknowledge of the strictly unpredictable. Another one is the possesion of accurate knowledge of anything elsewhere/elsewhen--things happening outside the light cone of the individual.

Couldn't we avoid the whole subject from becoming a problem in the first place, by declaring ANY kind of religion as a private matter ?

It would be an interesting suggestion to remove religion from politics. You could for example set out completely technical goals so that politicians do not need to express moral beliefs, values, ideologies, faiths, etc. (i.e. religious things). I think this would be a good idea actually.However I don't think that's feasible in a democracy because most people are looking to be inspired by some ideology and politicians rarely succeed unless they back themselves up with a religion or political philosophy with religious elements (conservatism, liberalism, christianity, hinduism, socialism).

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What would a break down look like, if religions have caused more good or harm in the past I wonder ?

And what do religions claim to benefit their followers ?

Most claim to express the truth; that's the fundamental thing they claim.
Machiavelli asked a question like you though. He thought religious piety was needed for a virtuous (in some Roman sense) society but with no interest in the truth of it.
If you're interested in culture then the answer might depend on whether you think the western tradition of music, literature, etc. is the greatest expression of culture or islamic art whether postmodern culture expressed in popular culture, films, movies is, etc..

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