Does anyone have a pre-trib timeline that they would care to post in this thread to compare to scripture. I was just going to grab one off the net somewhere but thought maybe someone here would like to offer and defend their pre-trib timeline. I am going to use this thread to point out the scripture errors associated with pre-trib.

Thanks,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Seeker wrote:Does anyone have a pre-trib timeline that they would care to post in this thread to compare to scripture. I was just going to grab one off the net somewhere but thought maybe someone here would like to offer and defend their pre-trib timeline. I am going to use this thread to point out the scripture errors associated with pre-trib.

Thanks,Seeker

Seeker, I don't know that there is a "pre-trib timeline". The Pre-trib view is that the rapture does not come after a mandatory set of events of the 70th week like the other views do. So there is no pre-trib timeline of the 70th week because pre-trib position is before the 70th week begins.

Pre-trib is more accurately Pre-70th week.

The one thing that all pre-tribbers have in common I would say is that the 70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:26 by the prince who shall come, if that's any help.

I think to disprove the pre-trib view, a person would have to show an event(s) within the 70th week that must take place prior to the rapture. Best wishes with your review.

Thanks but I am pretty certain I used to see pre-trib time lines all over the place. I'll go look at rapture ready if anyone has a pre-trib timeline it would be there...lol. I was just wanting to use one from someone here so they could defend it if they wanted. I am sure once I post a time line that there will be plenty of responses from the pre-trib camp here so shouldn't be a problem finding someone who will discuss it as there are a gazzillion threads on the subject here. Figured I would show up today and have 50 time lines to choose from...lol.

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

So then you are looking for someone to defend someone else's timeline?

No was looking for someone here who would like to debate pre-trib. Didn't want to have someone defend someone elses timeline.

If you want to start a Pre-Trib debate, perhaps resurrect one of the many threads already here, and find something in one of them to dispute? And see if you have any takers?

Well a resurrected thread has a lot of side arguments and confusion. I would like to try to avoid that in this thread, But if you have a good thread in mind to resurrect that isn't already way off topic I would be glad to continue it.

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

I looked at that link you provided and wow what a timeline that is. I don't need anything nearly that elaborate just a list of the sequence of events similar to what I started with in the Pre-wrath timeline thread. I want to examine the whole time sequence and compare one on one to what scripture says. No doubt with pre-trib I will start at the rapture and compare the rapture as pre-trib describes it to the rapture as the bible describes it. Is there anything that must happen before the rapture in the pre-trib view or would that be the starting point of the pre-trib time sequence?

Thanks,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

I think the thing is, pre-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib proponents don't look at Scriptures the same way. Unless we can resolve the underlying differences, simple things like timing issues will not be resolved, imo.

While I see much of the Revelation as a single ordered narrative, someone else sees it as a series of overlapping narratives.

While I see differences between the 70th week and the church age, others do not.

I see the sheep/goats judgment as occurring after the 2nd coming, at the beginning of the millennium, others see it as the final judgment, at the end of the 1000 year kingdom.

Without being able to agree on these, not to mention other teachings, which are more plainly written about, how will we ever come to agreement over rapture timing, which is not so plainly written???

Another point which drives thinking one way or the other is, "Who are the elect in Matt 24". Pretrib answers that question differently than prewrath or posttrib.

I think Mark S is correct that our underlying differences in viewpoints are what bring us to different conclusions. Thus there will be timing issues for all who cannot come to the same conclusion on these other points. Years ago I made a comment that went something like this;

If the elect of Matt 24 is "the Church" then it is impossible to come to a conclusion other than prewrath/posttrib, however if the elect of Matt 24 is Israel, then it is probable that one will reach a pretrib conclusion.

It is almost impossible to change the way we look at underlying scripture, which is why we have endless debates. So rather than just attacking a position as unbiblical (or whatever other terminology you may use) look at the whole picture and recognize that there are valid reasons for each position.

2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: 2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Hi Mark, that was a pretty interesting visual. I don't know that I would call it a timeline because I didn't see any timeframes on it. And maybe I am missing something, but the most important event is not shown, that is Jesus LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS returning back to earth descending to the mt of Olives.

Did I overlook the timeframes, i.e. the 1260 days, the 42 months, the 1290 days, the 1335th day, the 70 week beginning and ending? Never mind, I saw some of the time information down on the bottom.

Maybe you all complicate it too much and that is why there are endless debates. Let's just look at the actual rapture itself that is all that is neccessary.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I think we would all agree this is the rapture. Notice that before we who are alive and remain are raptured that the dead in Christ rise first. Maybe this is too simple but when do the dead in Christ rise in scripture? The dead in Christ rise at the resurrection. So this tells us that there has to be a resurrection before we are raptured.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here is where we see the first resurrection in scripture. Part of this group refused the MOB so this resurrection is after the AC begins his reign. Seems pretty straight forward that in order for the dead in Christ to rise before we who are alive and remain we would have to see a resurrection. Anyway Paul tells us that the dead in Christ rise first before those left and alive so from the pre-trib perspective where is the resurrection that is part of the rapture because I see the first resurrection here in Rev 20:4 after they refused the MOB. So which resurrection is the pre-trib resurrection in scripture?

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Your presupposition here is that there is only a single time that the dead are raised. This comes from blending the Old Covenant faithful with the New Covenant born again.

Daniel was told that he would stand in his allotment on the last day, ie, of the days having been prophesied.

Daniel 12:11-13(11) And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.(12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.(13) But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."

So this is when the OT faithful are resurrected, apparently. I think we agree here.

1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).

Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.

Douggg wrote: And maybe I am missing something, but the most important event is not shown, that is Jesus LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS returning back to earth descending to the mt of Olives.

It's tucked in there just before "satan bound", a tiny reference to Zech. 14:4. He could have made that more prominent. He's done quite a few of these sorts of things. They can be interesting to look at.

Your presupposition here is that there is only a single time that the dead are raised. This comes from blending the Old Covenant faithful with the New Covenant born again.

Daniel was told that he would stand in his allotment on the last day, ie, of the days having been prophesied.

Daniel 12:11-13(11) And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.(12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.(13) But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."

So this is when the OT faithful are resurrected, apparently. I think we agree here.

1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).

Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.

So where is the resurrection of the dead in Christ shown in scripture? I am trying to find the resurrection that precedes the rapture in scripture. So you are saying that it is not the same resurrection that we see in Dan 12? Where does the pre-trib resurrection occur in scripture?

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

mark s wrote:1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).

Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.

Hi Mark,

We, by faith are "in Christ". Daniel was FAITHFUL to God by FAITH, the same FAITH as Abraham had who looked for a city who's builder and maker was God. Abraham not yet having SEEN, just as Daniel BELEIVED God and it was accounted unto them as righteousness.........................Abraham and Daniel are IN Christ NOW just as they were IN Christ BEFORE Christ BY FAITH before Christ became flesh.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to........... seeds, as of many; but as of one............., And to thy seed, which is Christ.17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed.......... before of God .......IN....... Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

IMO

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Here is where we see the first resurrection in scripture. Part of this group refused the MOB so this resurrection is after the AC begins his reign. Seems pretty straight forward that in order for the dead in Christ to rise before we who are alive and remain we would have to see a resurrection. Anyway Paul tells us that the dead in Christ rise first before those left and alive so from the pre-trib perspective where is the resurrection that is part of the rapture because I see the first resurrection here in Rev 20:4 after they refused the MOB. So which resurrection is the pre-trib resurrection in scripture?

I agree with Mark in part. Though not necessarily about the old testament faithful vs. New testament faithful. However it all depends on what you see as the "first" resurrection- I have recently explained this here:

As I pointed out in one of those threads, there is only one rapture event recorded for us in scripture where those who are alive and remain are caught up. All other events are resurrections of the dead. IMO the only group that fits the raptured arriving in the heavenly tabernacle is found in Revelation 7- the multitudes that appear waving palm branches before the heavenly throne. I explain all of this in the links above.

The Christ first fruits are gathered first, this would include the raptured saints, followed by those who belong to Christ at His coming, and then comes the end when the kingdom is handed over to the Father. Three events, three separate resurrections being of either the primary kind which is a resurrection to life, or the kind that leads to judgment.

If you look at the opening of the fifth seal, John first sees the martyrs under the altar as souls, they are not yet resurrected, they are the dead in Christ. I do not believe these are tribulation martyrs, but those who have died as martyrs in the time before the 70th week, because they are told to rest until their fellow servants will be martyred as they were, until their number is completed, note they are told this after Johne sees them receive their white robe, this robe I believe represents their resurrection. Then we have the events of terror at the sixth seal and the multitudes showing up before the opening in the seventh seal. This is the resurrection of the dead, who are joined by the raptured church in heaven.

Your presupposition here is that there is only a single time that the dead are raised. This comes from blending the Old Covenant faithful with the New Covenant born again.

Daniel was told that he would stand in his allotment on the last day, ie, of the days having been prophesied.

Daniel 12:11-13(11) And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.(12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.(13) But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."

So this is when the OT faithful are resurrected, apparently. I think we agree here.

1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).

Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.

So where is the resurrection of the dead in Christ shown in scripture? I am trying to find the resurrection that precedes the rapture in scripture. So you are saying that it is not the same resurrection that we see in Dan 12? Where does the pre-trib resurrection occur in scripture?

Peace,Seeker

Hi Seeker,

The resurrection of the "dead in Christ" is shown in 1 Thess 4.

Daniel was not "a new creation", therefore, he was not "in Christ" (as the Bible uses these terms), therefore, he is not included in the group named in 1 Thess 4.

mark s wrote:1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).

Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.

Hi Mark,

We, by faith are "in Christ". Daniel was FAITHFUL to God by FAITH, the same FAITH as Abraham had who looked for a city who's builder and maker was God. Abraham not yet having SEEN, just as Daniel BELEIVED God and it was accounted unto them as righteousness.........................Abraham and Daniel are IN Christ NOW just as they were IN Christ BEFORE Christ BY FAITH before Christ became flesh.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to........... seeds, as of many; but as of one............., And to thy seed, which is Christ.17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed.......... before of God .......IN....... Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

IMO

Hi ST,

The thing is, Daniel was not regenerated, something that only happened after Jesus' resurrection.

We are "in Christ", having been baptized "into Christ". This is a New Testament thing. There is nowhere in the Bible that speaks of the OT faithful as being "in Christ", or being "born again". In the OT, regeneration was prophesied for the future. On the national level, it will happen when Jesus returns.

You have asserted that Abraham and Daniel should be considered "in Christ", presumably the same way that we are "in Christ" today. Please show Scripture that teaches this to us.

The thing is, Daniel was not regenerated, something that only happened after Jesus' resurrection.

The difference between the OT and the NT is that when Jesus came, the promise to believers is that they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That was not the case in the OT although, occasionally the Spirit did indwell a man, for a specific purpose, for a short period of time. There is a difference in the way that God dealt with believers in the OT and the NT.

I would offer the following as proof texts.

New Testament

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Old Testament

Eze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

Eze 3:24 Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.

You have asserted that Abraham and Daniel should be considered "in Christ", presumably the same way that we are "in Christ" today. Please show Scripture that teaches this to us.

Hebrews 11:39 And all these (the previous context is OT saints specifically naming Abraham) though commended through their faithdid not receive what was promised (one of the promises being a better resurrection, see Hebrews 11:35)40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from usthey should not be made perfect.

It seems quite clear that the writer to the Hebrews put both in one category. He also stated that both would be made perfect together. Chapter 12 continues with "since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses", showing that those in the past that testified and continue to testify through their testimony in the written Word now encompass us who continue to run this race. There is absolutely no basis in scripture for separating OT saints from church saints. The ot prophecy of the dead being raised in Isaiah 25:8 is exactly what Paul quote will be fulfilled when the church is raised as he writes in I Cor. 15:51-55.

You have asserted that Abraham and Daniel should be considered "in Christ", presumably the same way that we are "in Christ" today. Please show Scripture that teaches this to us.

Hebrews 11:39 And all these (the previous context is OT saints specifically naming Abraham) though commended through their faithdid not receive what was promised (one of the promises being a better resurrection, see Hebrews 11:35)40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from usthey should not be made perfect.

It seems quite clear that the writer to the Hebrews put both in one category. He also stated that both would be made perfect together. Chapter 12 continues with "since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses", showing that those in the past that testified and continue to testify through their testimony in the written Word now encompass us who continue to run this race. There is absolutely no basis in scripture for separating OT saints from church saints. The ot prophecy of the dead being raised in Isaiah 25:8 is exactly what Paul quote will be fulfilled when the church is raised as he writes in I Cor. 15:51-55.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Hi OM,

I'm staying with exactly what Scripture says. For one thing, it says that everyone in Christ is a new creature. This defines those who are and those who are not.

Now, you've said that this passage says "we would be made perfect together". The passages actually says that "God has provided something better for us", this is a distinction, and in our favor.

The passage also says that "apart from us they would not be made perfect". This does not say that apart from them, we shall not be born again. So it does not blend us together, it sets us into a better covenant than they had, which is the point of the letter to the Hebrews.

It does blend together. The promises were held in abeyance for those who lived by faith. They did not receive the promises, yet they all lived by faith, the same type of faith that we are encouraged to have, see Hebrews 11:1-3, 6. He has prepared for them a city, Hebrews 11:16, and He has prepared for us a city, Hebrews 12:22. And guess what? It's the same city, the New Jerusalem. Moses suffered the reproach of who? Who did Moses suffer for as recorded in Hebrews 11:26?

The text shows that they (OT saints) will not be made perfect apart from us. The whole point here in Hebrews 11 is that they lived by faith. They obeyed even though they did not receive the promises. What the writer is stating is that they will receive those promises (the better resurrection, the city whose builder and maker is God), but they will do it alongside of us. Their inheritance is yet to be received under the terms of the new covenant, and that includes us. So the difference is that we are receiving our inheritance at the same time they are, in the same body, but we are under the new covenant before we die. That's the only difference. Same faith. Same Christ. Same resurrection.

This whole dispensational paradigm is completely unscriptural. The OT saints drank of that spiritual rock that was Christ, I Cor. 10:4. They put Christ to the test. Those OT saints had the same forgiveness of sins that we have, Romans 1-8. David wrote of that blessedness of being forgiven for sins. Abraham believed and was justified. Paul states that this forgivenss is for us as well, just like David, and it is by faith, just like Abraham.

I'm simply saying that those who are born again are the one's identified as being "in Christ". This is not about dispensationalism. This is not about the New Jerusalem, or living by faith. It's not about our inheritance, or our resurrection body. It's very simple. It's about who has, and who has not, been born again.

If we stick with Biblical terms and teachings, New Covenant redeemed have been born again, Old Covenant were not. The born again are the one's "in Christ". Others were not.

We have received something they did not receive. The resurrection before the catching up is for the dead "in Christ". The Bible identifies who they are.

All these other arguments do not take into account the simple and clear definitions given in the Bible.

But Mark, the burden of proof rests on you to come up with such a narrow definition which includes only the terms "born again" and "in Christ". To the contrary of what you are trying to assert, the scriptures include us in with them. Here is an example and application of how the apostles used the term born again.

I Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,

You try to separate the term "born again" from terms like inheritance, faith, and resurrection, but it can't be done. Peter continues:

20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

So let us look at how God has structured those that have been born again with others.

2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." 7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense."They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

These old testament scriptures show that all who put their trust in this cornerstone (even those to whom the prophecy was given) are a part of this spiritual house. Those that believed in the OT are a part of it, and those of us in the here and now are a part of it. The passage continues.

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This passage is a direct parallel to Paul's declaration in Ephesians. The people who were far off, now brought near. The building of a spiritual house. It's all here and it's built upon the prophets of old who are a part of this same structure.

Ephesians 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

You can try to separate one category of God's people from another, but scriptures bears out that they are united. Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, none of these were even under the Mosaic Covenant. Abraham saw Christ's day and was glad.

The Orange Mailman wrote:But Mark, the burden of proof rests on you to come up with such a narrow definition which includes only the terms "born again" and "in Christ". To the contrary of what you are trying to assert, the scriptures include us in with them. Here is an example and application of how the apostles used the term born again.

Hi OM,

I'm not really sure why you are falling back on some "burden of proof", I'm simply presenting the Scripture, and what it says.

1 Thess 4 says the dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain are caught up.

So, we ask, who are these "dead in Christ" who rise first?

What do the Scriptures say?

Remember, I'm looking at this expression, "in Christ".

We are immersed into Christ.

Romans 6:3-4(3) Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?(4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Does the Bible say this about the OT faithful? Not to my knowledge. Please correct me if I'm overlooking something here.

Those who are "in Christ" are a new creation. (1 Cor 5) Does the Bible say that about OT faithful?

Those who are "in Christ" are no longer under the Law. (Rom 7) (goes without saying how this compared to the OT faithful)

Those who are "in Christ" are not subject to condemnation (Rom 8). Compare this to Ezekiel 18, If the righteous become wicked, what about his previous righteousness?

If we call the OT faithful "in Christ" (and that without a single Scripture that does so), then we negate all of these things, contrary to the teaching of the Bible.

You may conjecture that the OT faithful have been born again now that they are dead. I am not aware of any Scripture that teaches that, however, I do recall David saying that he would be satisfied when he "awake(s) in Your likeness". As the Bible customarily speaks of dying as sleeping, this strikes me as David looking forward to becoming in God's likeness at his resurrection.

I Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,

You try to separate the term "born again" from terms like inheritance, faith, and resurrection, but it can't be done.

While we have all these things, an inheritance, a living hope, rejoicing, yet still, this passage does not teach that the OT faithful were either born again, or were "in Christ".

Abraham was promised an inheritance, yet he was not a "new creation", and was not call in Scripture, "in Christ".

Peter continues:

20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Where in this passage exactly does Scripture teach that the OT faithful were either "born again", or "in Christ"? I'm not seeing it.

So let us look at how God has structured those that have been born again with others.

2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." 7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense."They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Same question as above . . .

Yes, there is commonality, however, that does not erase the distinctions. Remember, I'm simply looking at what Scripture does and does not say. It say that those "in Christ", who are dead at the time, are raised first, that we who remain alive will then be caught up with them, and that those "in Christ" are those who are "new creations", that is, the born again, the NT redeemed.

These old testament scriptures show that all who put their trust in this cornerstone (even those to whom the prophecy was given) are a part of this spiritual house. Those that believed in the OT are a part of it, and those of us in the here and now are a part of it. The passage continues.

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This passage is a direct parallel to Paul's declaration in Ephesians. The people who were far off, now brought near. The building of a spiritual house. It's all here and it's built upon the prophets of old who are a part of this same structure.

Ephesians 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Look at what Paul says in this passage:

Ephesians 2:13-16(13) But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.(14) For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility(15) by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances,that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,(16) and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

A new man in place of the two. Not adding to the old man. These are the Jewish and Gentile Christians, redeemed under the New Covenant, born again, reconciled through the cross.

You can try to separate one category of God's people from another, but scriptures bears out that they are united. Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, none of these were even under the Mosaic Covenant. Abraham saw Christ's day and was glad.

And yet none of these people, not a single one of them, are ever said in Scripture to be "in Christ", or to be "born again", "a new creation", any of these things.

Yes, we are all redeemed. We are all justified. We all worship the same God, will live with Him in the same eternity, and yet we were not all brought through the same covenant, in the same way, with the same prophetic calender.

The "dead in Christ" are those who are "in Christ", who are a "New Creation".

It's like I said at the beginning, without agreeing on these underlying fundamentals, we won't come to agreement on the other things.

All I can say is, if the Bible says it, then it says it. If it doesn't, then it doesn't.

Yes, all that are ever saved before and after Jesus, were all saved by faith. But the content of that faith through the ages was different.

Theologically, it is known as Progressive Revelation. Abraham knew that God would save him but he had no clue that it is through Christ. I believe that Paul's usage of those in-Christ are peculiar for those who are saved and born-again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

A definition if you like of those in-Christ can be found in Romans 8

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8:1

verse two onwards starts to differentiate the law of Spirit of Life and the law of sin and death. All that Abraham (or any of the OT saints) knew was the law of sin and death. Yes, they knew that God would save them from this law, but to be in Christ, I say they knew not.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

I doubt we can say that for even the great OT saints of old, they walked after the Spirit and had the Spirit of God dwelling in them?

Ephesians 1 gives more in-sight of being in-Christ and ends with

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,

Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Therefore, there is a distinct difference.

Blessings,KA

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομαFather, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Daniel was not "a new creation", therefore, he was not "in Christ" (as the Bible uses these terms), therefore, he is not included in the group named in 1 Thess 4.

So you are saying that the resurrection that occurs prior to the rapture is not shown in any other place in scripture. How can you possibly say where the rapture is or isn't if you can just see half of it? There has to be at least a second witness in scripture of the pre-trib resurrection or you have based a complete theory on nothing but one verse in scripture. That leaves your theory without any supporting proof. I'll bet I can find a resurrection near what you call the rapture. So where is the pre-trib rapture in scripture (besides 1Th 4) I know it is there I want supporting scripture so where else is the rapture shown in scripture?

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

I do not agree with you Mark- Jesus paid the penalty once for all, and that all would include those righteous from the OT era. Hebrews 11 gives us a list of the "faithful" OT saints. Note not all of these were under the law. Here is what it says concerning their faith:

Hebrews 11:1-2 1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

Hebrews 11:13-16 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 11:39-40 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

These OT faithful dies in faith, yet they would not at that time receive the promises that their hope lied in, God foresaw something better for us and apart from us they were not able to be made perfect. Their salvation could not be completed without us. I take this to mean that they will not enter into the promise (the heavenly country/city) without us.

Romans speaks of how all were made sinners through Adam, but through Christ there resulted justification to all men. This would include those righteous OT faithful, because their righteousness had to have come from God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18-21 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:10 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Ephesians seems to indicate that when Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth and then ascended He led a host of captives with Him. We also know from 1 Peter 3:17 that Jesus preached to those prisoners in Hades, those OT disobedient souls. Should we assume then that those captives he led at His ascension were those OT faithful who were able to then receive a portion of that promise? They became His captives? When He brought them from Abraham's Bosom into His?

Ephesians 4:8-10 8 Therefore it says, When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Here in Luke we also see that the criminal crucified next to Jesus was granted entrance into the kingdom. Was he "in Christ"? Was he part of the "church"? The Holy Spirit was not yet sent, Christ had not yet died to atone for His sins, so how is it that this criminal was justified and cleared to enter into paradise and be with Christ there? He believed that Jesus was who He claimed to be, and asked to be remembered when He entered His kingdom. He feared God. In that moment He found faith in the promise. As he hung next to Christ he was still under the old covenant but when He died he was justified under the new covenant.

Luke 23:39-43 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Again the resurrection of the righteous is one KIND of resurrection, the primary kind, the one that leads to life. Apart from Christ no one can be righteous, even those OT faithful could not have been righteous without Christ. Scripture tells us that they were indeed considered by God to be righteous because they had faith in the promise that was to come. They believed the word of God and obeyed His word.

The point is, that there is only one means to righteousness and that is through Christ, whether old or new testament believer. Apart from Him no one can be justified. The only means to salvation and attaining the promises is through Christ who died once for all mankind- past present and future. So all who are "faithful" are essentially in Him. Though before Christ actually atoned for everyone's sin, it appears that the righteous faithful who lived and died were unable to enter "paradise" and be with Christ until that happened. I believe they were in what Luke describes as Abraham's bosom. We in our minds separate the old testament faithful from those under the new covenant. But I do not believe that scripture makes that distinction. Ultimately we are all citizens of New Jerusalem, there is only one bride that comes down from heaven and both the old testament and new testament believers occupy that city. The distinction between the OT faithful and the NT faithful exists because time on earth is linear, and because we occupy a place on this physical earth at a specific time in history. But there is no distinction at least IMO in heaven where the righteous souls now reside, out of time, out of this physical plane.

The question that remains though is when are the OT faithful resurrected? I believe that those souls of the OT faithful currently reside together with those of the NT faithful in the same place (paradise) and will be raised together with those who are alive and remain on earth at that resurrection of the righteous when it occurs. There is not just one resurrection of the righteous but many.

There will be a resurrection of the righteous after the tribulation as well and scripture is very clear that it is made up of those who will die as martyrs during the great tribulation. There are specific points made about these souls- note how those who are raised because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God are described as having died by a specific means-by beheading. Note how there are those who did not worship the beast or his image and did not receive the mark. These are specific to the great tribulation. There are no others mentioned that come to life at this resurrection, this is a specific group of souls who died during the tribulation and cannot include anyone else. So unless all those OT faithful died by beheading they cannot be part of this group. Unless all the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain fit into one of these groups- die by beheading or because they refuse to worship the beast and take his mark, they cannot be included in this particular resurrection event.

Revelation 20:4 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

To me when the OT faithful are resurrected has no real bearing as to when the rapture/resurrection event happens. Who makes up that group that are the dead in Christ is of little consequence to when it happens.

Those who are the Christ first fruits, whether that includes OT faithful or not, these are the first to be raised to life. This is a resurrection of the righteous. Then there will be those that belong to Christ at His coming, these are also raised to life and is also a resurrection of the righteous. Then comes the end, (of the millennial reign) when those righteous souls who lived and died during the millennial reign will be resurrected to life this is also a resurrection of the righteous- the first kind of resurrection, there is not only one resurrection of the righteous, there cannot be. There are two kinds of resurrection one to life and one to judgment, the righteous take part in the first kind. The wicked take part in the second kind- to judgment and punishment.

IMO the resurrection to life that is made up of the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain (the raptured) occurs after the removal of the sixth seal and before the 70th week begins with the removal of the seventh seal. (These are the Christ first fruits)

The resurrection to life that is made up of the tribulation saints occurs at the end of the tribulation (Rev 20) (These are those who are Christ's at His coming)

The resurrection to life that is made up of millennial saints is found at the white throne judgment, those souls given up by the sea (crystal sea). The resurrection to judgment is also found at the white throne judgment, those souls given up by death and hades.(both of these groups are those who are raised when the "end" comes)

see 1 Corinthians 15:20-26

Also want to clarify that the distinctions between who is "in Christ" and who may not be exists as we live on earth, and in the construct of linear time. I misspoke when I said scripture does not make any distinction, it does. However that distinction I believe does not exist once the believer dies. Whether OT or NT faithful.

Easy to see why the pre-trib threads go crazy...lol. Could we all just back up and focus on the rapture so that we can step through the timeline as the topic of the thread suggests. Let's just keep it basic in this thread please. If you all want to have the same old arguments please start a new thread I would like to try to keep this thread on the topic of the pre-trib timeline and we haven't even finished step one of the timeline and everyone is dragging this thread off course. Please continue in a different thread so we can keep this one on topic.

Thanks,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Daniel was not "a new creation", therefore, he was not "in Christ" (as the Bible uses these terms), therefore, he is not included in the group named in 1 Thess 4.

So you are saying that the resurrection that occurs prior to the rapture is not shown in any other place in scripture.

No, I'm not saying that. I am pointing to a place where it is said.

How can you possibly say where the rapture is or isn't if you can just see half of it?

Not sure what this means, "see half of it".

There has to be at least a second witness in scripture of the pre-trib resurrection or you have based a complete theory on nothing but one verse in scripture.

Um, I have a difficulty with this statement. One is that if Scripture only says something one time, then it is not to be believed? I don't accept that. There are a number of things Scripture says only once. Do I need to make a list?

Even so, I am merely saying that this is a place where it is said. Perhaps you can show those Scriptures that you believe teach something contrary to what I am saying, and we can look at them to see if that is truly what they teach?

That leaves your theory without any supporting proof.

What you call "my theory" has simply been a presentation of Scripture.

I'll bet I can find a resurrection near what you call the rapture. So where is the pre-trib rapture in scripture (besides 1Th 4) I know it is there I want supporting scripture so where else is the rapture shown in scripture?

Your turn. Prove to me from Scripture that the OT saints are the "dead in Christ", and therefore are raised before the Rapture.

Seeker wrote:Easy to see why the pre-trib threads go crazy...lol. Could we all just back up and focus on the rapture so that we can step through the timeline as the topic of the thread suggests. Let's just keep it basic in this thread please. If you all want to have the same old arguments please start a new thread I would like to try to keep this thread on the topic of the pre-trib timeline and we haven't even finished step one of the timeline and everyone is dragging this thread off course. Please continue in a different thread so we can keep this one on topic.

Thanks,Seeker

Like I said at the beginning . . . unless we agree on the fundamentals, we'll never agree on rapture timing. We can't even agree on how precise we should take the meanings of the words used.

Anyway, I don't really have a time-line I'm trying to debate, so . . .

Ok thx. Anyone else have any other scripture besides 1Th 4 that shows the pre-trib resurrection or does anyone have any other scripture that shows the pre-trib rapture? Surely there is at least one other verse that supports the pre-trib resurrection and rapture. I couldn't imagine supporting a theory that doesn't even have one supporting verse for its main concept.

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Ok thx. Anyone else have any other scripture besides 1Th 4 that shows the pre-trib resurrection or does anyone have any other scripture that shows the pre-trib rapture? Surely there is at least one other verse that supports the pre-trib resurrection and rapture. I couldn't imagine supporting a theory that doesn't even have one supporting verse for its main concept.

Sorry must have missed it could you post the verses again that show the event called the pre-trib rapture or the pre-trib resurrection. Just looking for straight scripture that shows the rapture or resurrection. You can post it in the reply and we will start from there ok?

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Sorry must have missed it could you post the verses again that show the event called the pre-trib rapture or the pre-trib resurrection. Just looking for straight scripture that shows the rapture or resurrection. You can post it in the reply and we will start from there ok?

Well if you are looking for a passage that states something like- "this is where the rapture happens and it is pre-tribulational" well that won't happen. Nor can you point to "straight scripture" that shows it happens anywhere else along whatever timeline you happen to believe. I would like to see straight scripture that supports it happening at the end of the tribulation, I have already shown that the passage you point to does not reflect that it occurs then. There is no passage in scripture that specifically identifies the "rapture" event as we call it when those who are alive are caught up in the clouds with those who have died together with Christ. We all know the passages where Paul explains what the event is that we call the rapture but there is no place where it is simply stated that shows where and when it happens. Nevertheless, we can look to clues in scripture that give us an idea as to when it happens. And some pretty solid evidence concerning when it doesn't happen.

I have already done this and pointed to what I believe is scriptural support that would indicate a resurrection event that occurs before the return of Christ. Now the timing of that could be debated and one can make a case for a mid-trib rapture/resurrection event. But I can equally make a case for a pre-70th week one and have done so in the past. I am not going to re-post what is already right here in this thread and available to you. Please go back and read my post and then you can reply and we will take it from there ok?

Ok I see now I didn't think I saw that you posted scripture showing the pre-trib rapture or resurrection. Just making sure.

Nor can you point to "straight scripture" that shows it happens anywhere else along whatever timeline you happen to believe. I would like to see straight scripture that supports it happening at the end of the tribulation,

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here we see the dead in Christ raised on the "last day". Since they are raised it is a resurrection. Since they believed in Jesus and are dead they are the dead in Christ just as described in the rapture. The dead in Christ rise first on the "last day". Does the last day describe the beginning or end of the tribulation?

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Thanks but pre-wrath has just as many errors as pre-trib so all that link will do is cause confusion. See my pre-wrath timeline thread to view the scripture errors associated with pre-wrath.

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Thanks but pre-wrath has just as many errors as pre-trib so all that link will do is cause confusion. See my pre-wrath timeline thread to view the scripture errors associated with pre-wrath.

Peace,Seeker

Hello Seeker, in my personal opinion I believe all pre-occurent theories are filled with many flaws.....I think that's part of the intent to be excited and anticipate the return of our king and savior JESUS CHRIST!

I studied directly under Robert VanKampen, Charles Cooper, Roger Best, Marvin Rosenthal, ETC.... I counted them and still do as Great friends and true to the faith and being great students and teachers in the word of GOD....But I no longer hold to their classic form of Pre-Wrath....but credit them for discrediting the much faulty pre-trib error. their insistence on the normal natural customary interpretation of GODS word changed my whole understanding of the Bible.

I dont need to know the errors, I need to know JESUS CHRIST is returning! I need to be exceedingly rejoicing and comforted by the fact that this sinful Mortal body is going to be renewed and that I am going to enter "THE PROMISE" land along side all the Faithful elect.

I dont even believe in the classic idea of the rapture! so indeed arguing about when this misunderstood event will take place is moot! the Bible in in its clearest language states only ONE, 1, single, solitary return of CHRIST.....the clearest picture of that Return is Seen in Revelation 19 which is Johns depiction of the glorious return from the perspective of the Earthly inhabitants.

We so often, as I was guilty of doing,muddy the clear picture of JESUS' triumphant return by attempting to string together events, timelines and scenarios using any number of Hermeneutic practices or personal convictions that until the occurrence itself I dont believe anyone including myself has the "TIMELINE" or "EVENT" correct.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here we see the dead in Christ raised on the "last day". Since they are raised it is a resurrection. Since they believed in Jesus and are dead they are the dead in Christ just as described in the rapture. The dead in Christ rise first on the "last day". Does the last day describe the beginning or end of the tribulation?

Hi Seeker,That is the question isn't it? What is the "last day" describing? Is it the last day of a particular era, dispensation, day of the Lord, or the last day for each of those resurrected at their particular resurrection event? Or something else entirely?

It's interesting that most of these references to the resurrection and the last day fall in chapter 6 of John's gospel, there is also one in chapter 11 and one in 12. In the passage that follows just after these references to the last day in chapter 6 we have John recording this for us:

John 7:37 37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

Jesus had gone up to the feast of booths during the middle of the feast and here John records for us "the last day" showing that it was the great day of the feast. This day is known as "the great salvation" or in Hebrew "hoshana rabbah" if and how this correlates is up for grabs. But perhaps it is symbolic of the resurrection/last day?

Also Peter in his sermon on the feast of Pentecost says the following quoting the Old testament: he was demonstrating to the crowds that this passage was being fulfilled. Thus he is showing that the era he lived in was considered "the last days"

Acts 2:16-17 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says, ‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams;

Here again in Hebrews we see the author calling his era "the last days".

Hebrews 1:1-2 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

James also does the same here:

James 5:3 3 Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!

So if the days following Christ's resurrection are considered by the New Testament writers to be "last days" then which last day does the resurrection happen? If you really want to say it is the last day of last days, then that would have to be the final resurrection event that occurs at the end of the Millennium, the white throne judgment.

It is not rocket science though, it is very clear from the plain reading of the Revelation written by John who is the one who wrote concerning the "last day" resurrection that there is more than one resurrection event.

There is the event he records in chapter 7 which by the way shows the multitudes waving palm branches which is how the feast of Tabernacles was to be celebrated

Then there are the two events in chapter 20- the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs followed by the white throne judgment.

These are three separate resurrection events. Those multitudes in chapter 7 are not the same group as the martyrs of Rev 20 who cannot be part of the same group in chapter 7. For the following reason as I have already said- John describes the group in chapter 20 as martyrs, those who have died [u]by beheading or because they did not take the mark of the beast or worship him. So unless all the dead in Christ who have ever lived meet one of those criteria it must be a different group. We know it cannot be the case because many who are the dead in Christ today have died natural deaths and have not had to resist the beast or his mark, who is a specific entity that exists only during the 70th week.

So the multitudes of Rev 7 must arrive in the heavenly tabernacle at some other time other than when the tribulation martyrs arrive, they do not arrive together. If indeed they make up the dead in Christ and the raptured saints.

As I said earlier John sees the fifth seal martyrs receive their white robes, he describes them as souls under the throne, these martyrs are part of the group that would be the dead in Christ. Again after they receive their robes they are told to rest until their number is completed, until their brothers have been killed just like they were as martyrs. They are resurrected first and then told that their number needs to be completed. Again this shows that there are those who will die as martyrs after these of the fifth seal are resurrected. When the soul (the dead spirit) of the individual receives the white robe they are receiving their priestly robe of salvation- their glorified body- the raiment of heaven.

This again demonstrates that there is more than one resurrection of the righteous, this one happens at least before the removal of the seventh seal. And before the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs.

Whatever John meant by "the last day" must be fulfilled for each group that is part of each of these resurrection events.

And again it all matches perfectly with what Paul records regarding the order of the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15.

pre-wrath has just as many errors as pre-trib so all that link will do is cause confusion

One thing I forgot to mention, Is that as I have argued and debated this issue for some 30 years on both sides of the Pre-trib fence. one thing that I have learned is this.If we get so caught up into the fantasy that We Have it right...and the other camps dont, we fail to recognize that we can learn and gain valuable understanding even from those who dont agree with our beliefs entirely. Assuming of course we have the common ground of JESUS.GOD-BLESS,

Hello Seeker,in my personal opinion I believe all pre-occurent theories are filled with many flaws.....I think that's part of the intent to be excited and anticipate the return of our king and savior JESUS CHRIST!

I studied directly under Robert VanKampen, Charles Cooper, Roger Best, Marvin Rosenthal, ETC.... I counted them and still do as Great friends and true to the faith and being great students and teachers in the word of GOD....But I no longer hold to their classic form of Pre-Wrath....

Finally someone willing to approach the scriptures and not follow the crowd. Quite a resume there. I would be honored if you would check out the Post-Wrath thread of mine and critique it. Feel free to point out or discuss any errors you find there it is a work in progress. I started the thread to iron out any flaws in the Post-Wrath theory so would be delighted if you could look it over and point out any weaknesses that you find. Most seem to be stuck in the classic pre-trib/pre-wrath mindset. Many things about both pre-trib and pre-wrath didn't ring true to scripture to me which caused me to seek out something that was closer to the words of scripture. I look forward to discussing this more with you in the Post-Wrath thread located here.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

My apologies but I am out of time today. I will get to your post asap when I return.

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

slick wrote:We so often, as I was guilty of doing,muddy the clear picture of JESUS' triumphant return by attempting to string together events, timelines and scenarios using any number of Hermeneutic practices or personal convictions that until the occurrence itself I dont believe anyone including myself has the "TIMELINE" or "EVENT" correct.

pre-wrath has just as many errors as pre-trib so all that link will do is cause confusion

One thing I forgot to mention, Is that as I have argued and debated this issue for some 30 years on both sides of the Pre-trib fence. one thing that I have learned is this.If we get so caught up into the fantasy that We Have it right...and the other camps dont, we fail to recognize that we can learn and gain valuable understanding even from those who dont agree with our beliefs entirely. Assuming of course we have the common ground of JESUS.GOD-BLESS,

Hi Seeker,That is the question isn't it? What is the "last day" describing? Is it the last day of a particular era, dispensation, day of the Lord, or the last day for each of those resurrected at their particular resurrection event? Or something else entirely?

Not really the bible is written for everyday people not Greek scholars. Any normal person reading last day would take it exactly as it says last day. Just as pre-wrath weakens its position by trying to find obscure meanings for common words, you are guilty as well. If it doesn't fit your theory change the common meaning of the word day. Anyway can't discuss that with you since you change the common meaning. It means exactly what one would think day means in this case. That can be proven later indirectly.

It's interesting that most of these references to the resurrection and the last day fall in chapter 6 of John's gospel, there is also one in chapter 11 and one in 12. In the passage that follows just after these references to the last day in chapter 6 we have John recording this for us:

John 7:3737 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

Jesus had gone up to the feast of booths during the middle of the feast and here John records for us "the last day" showing that it was the great day of the feast. This day is known as "the great salvation" or in Hebrew "hoshana rabbah" if and how this correlates is up for grabs. But perhaps it is symbolic of the resurrection/last day?

John is referring to the "last day" of the feast Jesus was attending at the time.

Joh 7:9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. Joh 7:10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. Joh 7:11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Big stretch there I'd say.

Also Peter in his sermon on the feast of Pentecost says the following quoting the Old testament: he was demonstrating to the crowds that this passage was being fulfilled. Thus he is showing that the era he lived in was considered "the last days"

Acts 2:16-1716 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says, ‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams;

Here again in Hebrews we see the author calling his era "the last days".

No one said last days it was "last day" singular. You want to see how Peter describes the last days though?

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

In the last days there will be scoffers asking where is the promise of His coming. That would be the promise that Jesus made concerning His return. So we can be sure Peter is talking about when Jesus returns.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jesus is not slack concerning His promise.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Peter says that when Jesus arrives as a thief the heavens will pass away, the elements will melt with fervant heat, and the earth will be burned up. That's how Peter describes the return of Jesus. We also see that Paul refers to the return of Jesus as the day of the Lord as well.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The Lord descends from heaven with a shout. As far as times and seasons of the event Paul need not write because they know that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Paul equates the descending of Jesus to the day of the Lord when sudden destruction rains down on the sinners. So Peter and Paul both describe the return of Christ as the day of the Lord. In both cases we see that the destruction of the sinners accompanies both descriptions of the return of Christ here in the "last days" description given by both of them.

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

So if the days following Christ's resurrection are considered by the New Testament writers to be "last days" then which last day does the resurrection happen? If you really want to say it is the last day of last days, then that would have to be the final resurrection event that occurs at the end of the Millennium, the white throne judgment.

It is not rocket science though, it is very clear from the plain reading of the Revelation written by John who is the one who wrote concerning the "last day" resurrection that there is more than one resurrection event.

Which day is the last day of the last days? The text says last day. The "last day" would be the last day of the last days....lol.

These are three separate resurrection events. Those multitudes in chapter 7 are not the same group as the martyrs of Rev 20 who cannot be part of the same group in chapter 7. For the following reason as I have already said- John describes the group in chapter 20 as martyrs, those who have died [u]by beheading or because they did not take the mark of the beast or worship him. So unless all the dead in Christ who have ever lived meet one of those criteria it must be a different group. We know it cannot be the case because many who are the dead in Christ today have died natural deaths and have not had to resist the beast or his mark, who is a specific entity that exists only during the 70th week.

So the multitudes of Rev 7 must arrive in the heavenly tabernacle at some other time other than when the tribulation martyrs arrive, they do not arrive together. If indeed they make up the dead in Christ and the raptured saints.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

According to your logic then the only ones that live and reign with Christ during the 1,000 years would be the tribulation martyrs as they were the only ones in the "first" resurrection. Blessed and Holy are those who have part in the first resurrection, they shall reign with Him 1,000 years.

Peace,Seeker

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

According to your logic then the only ones that live and reign with Christ during the 1,000 years would be the tribulation martyrs as they were the only ones in the "first" resurrection. Blessed and Holy are those who have part in the first resurrection, they shall reign with Him 1,000 years.

Hi Seeker,

either you did not read my posts or you are just ignoring everything else I said- not sure which.

But just so I am clear- are you claiming that the resurrection in chapter 20 of Revelation "the first resurrection" includes all those who are currently the dead in Christ and that it is when those who are alive and remain are caught up to be with them as well? I just want to be sure that is what you are saying?

If this is what you are claiming how do you reconcile the fact that those who John witnesses being raised at that resurrection first of all are all souls- which means they are the dead, secondly that they died by beheading and/or because they did not worship the beast or take the mark of the beast?

Revelation 20:4-6 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Like I pointed out before John only describes these as being the ones resurrected, and they are all clearly tribulation martyrs who have died specifically by beheading and/or because they did not worship the beast or take the mark. How is it possible that this group includes all those who are the dead in Christ that have ever lived? Since you and I both know many who have died in Christ who died natural deaths or by some other means other than beheading? Nor have all those who were in Christ who have preceded us in death been killed because they did not worship the beast or take his mark. This group is a specific group that comprises only those who died as martyrs during the tribulation. Also they all died- therefore it cannot include those who were alive and remained until the end.