We really need to find a team so desperate for a good PG they will take the risk in TJ. Trading him for nothing isnt that easy considering he makes 8mil a year.

I said it in another thread, obv TJ going to say all the right things atm, that he is cool with the situation, but pro athletes are competitive and its only a matter of time til he feels he is really back and wants more time. No true starting PG in the league can be happy as a backup, name one? They dont exist, so its naive to think we can make it work.

Some ppl think, well just have them both on the floor at the same time, Calderon is a good shooter and scorer now, he could be a SG... prob is he has problems guarding quick, strong PGs, imagine him vs the SGs, not a viable option.

Somethings gotta give,, if BC rolled the dice and TJ really stayed healthy, Jose could demand a real good player in return, but its a scary risk.

The guy looks like he's trying to prove too much. He pushes the issue on every play, with his out of control drives to the baseline and then passes as he's flying out of bounds.

As for all this speculation, it's just becoming such a waste of energy...

I'd say he was pretty hot recently.

TJ was the difference maker yesterday plain and simple. his last two games have been awesome, and i for one really like him "pushing the issue on every play" as you said. There was zero creativity and intensity when jose was playing yesterday - yes i think it was a blip on the radar and i think he'll be back to normal next time around, but TJ has been fantastic of late. and while he was shooting the ball well, he was finding his teammates very well.

In no way am i suggesting a shift in minutes or roles for TJ/Jose, but give TJ his due... He is playing great right now and we really need him to keep our record improving.

Any of you that think we don't win unless he plays that way last night are nuts.

It's the bigger picture you miss.

Instead of moving ina systematic direction where all players have very defined roles, the ball gets moving, and there are open shots, you're gonna have shitty games where you are scrambling around.

And trust me JAckals, come Playoff time, when it's Detroit, and not Indiana, minus two starters, rolling Tj out to play one on one aint getting it done. It will be too late by then though to do anything but that.

You have to build a strong system. This bullshit is corrosive, and counterproductive to the team goal of becomming a top tier contender.

Any of you that think we don't win unless he plays that way last night are nuts.

It's the bigger picture you miss.

Instead of moving ina systematic direction where all players have very defined roles, the ball gets moving, and there are open shots, you're gonna have shitty games where you are scrambling around.

And trust me JAckals, come Playoff time, when it's Detroit, and not Indiana, minus two starters, rolling Tj out to play one on one aint getting it done. It will be too late by then though to do anything but that.

You have to build a strong system. This bullshit is corrosive, and counterproductive to the team goal of becomming a top tier contender.

Also rans do r a decade is what we'll get.

Go Tj. Yer so good at scoring.

Making ridiculous claims that TJ is a scorer and not an effective distributor after last season and the games he's played this year is ignorant...jackal comment aside. No point in arguing with you

Ps. I don't need to justify this, there ten pages of you same people hailing Jose as the next coming of christ that shows just how much you love Ford.

I HATE the phrase "a win is a win". There are such things as bad wins. Toronto's offence takes big steps backwards in evolution when they play that style. It will win games, but not conistantly, and to be honest, I remember the playoffs, New jersey shut this style DOWN so easily, it hurt to watch.

But ya, I'm ignorant, I relaise that, first Thriller, now Nasty.

It's ok.

In a fantasy I'd bulid and run my team, you could build yours.

After 82 games, I'd be in first, your team wouldn't, I'd eat you forlunch in the Playoffs, and I would stablish a system that would keep my team strong for a decade, and not ride out a fucking one one one player until he was shut down by a good defensive team.

Ps. I don't need to justify this, there ten pages of you same people hailing Jose as the next coming of christ that shows just how much you love Ford.

I HATE the phrase "a win is a win". There are such things as bad wins. Toronto's offence takes big steps backwards in evolution when they play that style. It will win games, but not conistantly, and to be honest, I remember the playoffs, New jersey shut this style DOWN so easily, it hurt to watch.

But ya, I'm ignorant, I relaise that, first Thriller, now Nasty.

It's ok.

In a fantasy I'd bulid and run my team, you could build yours.

After 82 games, I'd be in first, your team wouldn't, I'd eat you forlunch in the Playoffs, and I would stablish a system that would keep my team strong for a decade, and not ride out a fucking one one one player until he was shut down by a good defensive team.

No offence guys, I just don't like that style of running a franchise.

Your points aren't invalid, but you're mislabelling Tj and the Raptor's style as one on one and freezing out his teammates on offence. Clearly you're watching some other games and calling it Tj. It's not about the number of assists.. it's establishing a flow in the offence, generating ball movement when there's room and breaking down defense and scoring when needed. Tj has show since he's arrived here with consistancy that he is an unselfish point guard that uses the dribble as his weapon, sees the floor very well, can kickstart the offense and can even take over when needed. Does he occasionally look to shoot when perhaps he shouldn't?? Sure..but what young player, any position, Jose included doesn't? He's got a ways to go to be a top 5 team leader sure but lots of us are patient. You're basically comparing him to Mike James and that IS ignorant no matter how you slice it.

We were shut down in the playoffs due in a large way to inexperienced players freezing on the big stage. Shots that were falling before weren't...guys like Dixon who couldn't miss before suddenly couldn't hit. Bosh was defended very well and didn't adjust quickly enough...the list goes on.

Anyways...I would agree with you the one on one style you're talking about wont' likely win you championships(lebron james) but that's not Tj's game or the Raptors game no matter how much you may want it to be to get Tj out of here.

I like him as a back up, a traditional one at that minute-wise. I have maintained that for a while now.

He mixes up the flow, and creates hellish match up problems with his speed. But this team absolutely needs to revolve around Jose's amazing ability to calmly and effeciently get everyone involved, as well as score when it's needed, but score in an easy way. Jose gets Wide open relaxed 15-17 footers anytime he seems to want to. It's reliable, and if you play the odds, or you're at all a numbers guy, who do you want taking those shots???

I like him as a back up, a traditional one at that minute-wise. I have maintained that for a while now.

He mixes up the flow, and creates hellish match up problems with his speed. But this team absolutely needs to revolve around Jose's amazing ability to calmly and effeciently get everyone involved, as well as score when it's needed, but score in an easy way. Jose gets Wide open relaxed 15-17 footers anytime he seems to want to. It's reliable, and if you play the odds, or you're at all a numbers guy, who do you want taking those shots???

Alright this i can debate. I dont' think it's that obvious we need to revolve around Jose's game... our record with him running the show hasn't been anything to write home about. We've lost several games to weaker, unhealthy teams this year we never should have lost and it wasn't because of the defence.

I see it the other way around... having the calm, steadying and not too risk-taking guy come off the bench to relieve the agressive and tenacious speed demon makes more sense. I like Tj's defence against the other team's starting guards more and despite overatures to the contrary Tj does look to get his team-mates involved, early and often. I agree he doesn't have Jose's efficiency and he's not as good at the mid to long range jump shooting(he needs to improve there).. he gets into the heart of the opposing defence and when there isnt' a good kick-out pass he's got an easy 10 footer available. I'd like to see his layup finishing improve as well..he reminded me of Jose two years ago in last nights game inside of 2 feet...but that's all stuff that will come with time.

Ps. I don't need to justify this, there ten pages of you same people hailing Jose as the next coming of christ that shows just how much you love Ford.

I HATE the phrase "a win is a win". There are such things as bad wins. Toronto's offence takes big steps backwards in evolution when they play that style. It will win games, but not conistantly, and to be honest, I remember the playoffs, New jersey shut this style DOWN so easily, it hurt to watch.

But ya, I'm ignorant, I relaise that, first Thriller, now Nasty.

It's ok.

In a fantasy I'd bulid and run my team, you could build yours.

After 82 games, I'd be in first, your team wouldn't, I'd eat you forlunch in the Playoffs, and I would stablish a system that would keep my team strong for a decade, and not ride out a fucking one one one player until he was shut down by a good defensive team.

No offence guys, I just don't like that style of running a franchise.

hahahahaahah man o man. The fantasy "my friend is so and so .bigtime so and so and said so and so" legend. IDC I esp love the 2nd last paragraph haha classic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fancylad
oK this conversation has gotten out of hand.

I understand critisizing a player when he warrants it. In the past TJ has played too feverishly and tried to do too much on his own. But i don't like living in the past and holding stuff against someone after the fact.

In last night's game (and the NY game for that matter), TJ played very much within the team and WASN'T playing selfish or out of control or anything like that. He played great (sure he took an ill-advised shot or so - but fuck EVERYONE does on a regular basis), distributed the ball well, and ran the offense well.

At this point he doesn't deserve this criticism based on the Indiana game - and this is what this thread is talking about.

Well, TJ in my opinion did play selfish however he was in control. Why I say in control it's because his game his score first and pass second. That the beauty of having both guards.If Jose has a weakness its his hunger to score alittle more. Teams lately have been trying to take the ball out of Joses hands by double teaming him up high while he trys to set up the half court offence. Jose has the speed and the smarts to break it down however he has for some reason decided just to move the ball as soon as the double team comes in therefore taking Jose out of the play.Instead of trying to push the ball into the heart of the floor he just moved it quickly to the open man. This simple pass just made Jose look out of place. This tactic prevented him from getting him assists because the ball moved and unlike in hockey you don't get that second assist. The funny part in that game was any time he gave a teammate a good look they missed their shot. TJ comes in and his style is to drive or shoot right away thus preventing teams trying to double team him. Both players have 2 completely differant styles and as most already know I believe that overall Joses style when he puses the ball will make our players better especially chris bosh.TJ likes to shoot we saw it in the knick game. I was at that game and the fans around joked about TJ shooting all the time.He took 11 shots in 19 mins and in the 4th quarter the fans around were laughing and saying its a one man team playing against 5 on the floor.In the pacer game TJ took 15 shots in 26 mins the most on the team. The bigest differance in these 2 is that TJ wants to be the star and Jose wants the team to be the star.You will find as we move forward that Jose will not look as dominate with fewer minutes, those late important shots that he has demonstated he can make will not happen because he will not be on the floor.In conclusion in the last 2 games TJ FORD has played 45 mins and taken 26 shots and Jose Calderon has played 52 minutes and has taken a whopping 11 shots. If Jose does not push and drive in is reduced minutes role with TJ back he will look out of place once again.

next years trade deadline
if were not 600. or the top 2 in our conference,
trade TJ (assuming he proves himself healthy)
or trade Jose?
See who plays better next season and while you wait Sign Ukic this offseason.
SO when TJ or Jose leave you got Ukic to back em up... and dw guys i can PROMISE you Ukic wont be a bust.

No offense, but you are very obviously fanatic TJ fans, so for you when he makes 3 baskets in a row, it makes you jump out of your seats. Many people believe that a point guard's role is not to score, and a point guard who takes 4 shots in a row should be benched for the rest of the game. Sure, there are teams that play systems geared towards one on one situations, that will allow their star players to exploit mismatches. But Toronto is not one of them. Our roster is built for sharing the ball, we have a lot of shooters who need shots to keep them from going cold.

When you say things like:

Quote:

I'd say he was pretty hot recently.

TJ was the difference maker yesterday plain and simple. his last two games have been awesome

it makes me wonder, which games you actually watched? TJ scoring 10 points playing against the scrubs in a blowout win hardly qualifies as a "big game", don't you think? Before that, he had 0, 2, 7, 2 and 4 points and 2 games where he didn't play. Does that make him "pretty hot recently"? I wonder ...

Finally, I agree that TJ was crucial against Indiana last night - without him we'd probably lose that game. But did I like the way he played? Not at all. Sure, he gave Diener fits (Diener who?), we all know TJ is quick. But he also was out of control at many times during the game, he got lucky on a few reckless penetrations and he didn't commit TOs, but just because you drink and drive and nothing happens, that doesn't make it a good thing ...

Personally, i would hardly call myself a TJ fanatic. I've actually been a pretty harsh critic of his in the past based on how he has played.

But that's the thing. I know how he played before his injury, and i see how he's playing now. I see the difference. He's definitely put more focus on finding the rest of the team in these last few games. IMO, he's been a different player this week. I know it's a short time, but i can see a change.