Also, another circular thing to mention is the fact that you are circling around my questions without actually answering them.

I thought the term apostate (riddah) was very clearly defined in the Quran as well as what the consequences were for it - how do you claim it's a "man-made" word? Or are you just playing the semantic game because I didn't use the Arabic version of the word?

Also, another circular thing to mention is the fact that you are circling around my questions without actually answering them.

I thought the term apostate (riddah) was very clearly defined in the Quran as well as what the consequences were for it - how do you claim it's a "man-made" word? Or are you just playing the semantic game because I didn't use the Arabic version of the word?

I told you that I am not answering on behalf of Islam, but that your questions are universal in that they are asked in other religions too.

Further than that I cannot answer you much more than what I have without pretending expertise I am not fully fluent in. (i.e. Islam)
However you do seem to need answers, but why it is that you're getting bogged down in the minutiae of these rather shallow questions is beyond me.

Religion and Faith are fairly simplistic as they deal with the soul and the soul alone. The distinction of man made made religious laws and God made religious laws are pretty clear for those that want to see them.
Man made laws (in religion) deal with earthly consequences with no real claim against the soul.
God made laws simply deal with the soul and nothing more.

[CHKNHD] Precognition with lag
"A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man will follow public opinion"

I told you that I am not answering on behalf of Islam, but that your questions are universal in that they are asked in other religions too.

Further than that I cannot answer you much more than what I have without pretending expertise I am not fully fluent in. (i.e. Islam)
However you do seem to need answers, but why it is that you're getting bogged down in the minutiae of these rather shallow questions is beyond me.
Religion and Faith are fairly simplistic as they deal with the soul and the soul alone. The distinction of man made made religious laws and God made religious laws are pretty clear for those that want to see them.
Man made laws (in religion) deal with earthly consequences with no real claim against the soul.
God made laws simply deal with the soul and nothing more.

Let me be frank with you - I think you are just pulling a flowery con job here. Don't tell me what my questions relate to. I will tell you what my questions are. And I am asking them of wayfarer in a post he created about Islam - not universal issues.

So all you are trying to do is deflect.

Your condescending and disingenuous "why it is that you're getting bogged down in the minutiae of these rather shallow questions is beyond me" is regarded with the contempt it deserves.

Or you can explain to me how people killed for apostasy, with respect to Islam, would concur with you that this is "minutiae".

But a direct answer to your question is nothing happens and nothing should happen, that is between yourself and your creator.

106. Whoever disbelieved in Allah after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a great torment. (Chapter 16 verse 106)

There is no prescribed earthly punishment for apostasy in the Quran whatsoever that I'm aware of.

What Muslims do and what the Quran says are different things. No one denies people are killed for leaving Islam, it happens, people are nuts. Do your own research and use the source you quote, the Quran. See if you can find a place it mentions killing anyone.

You made the claim that Quran says X now you want me to prove you wrong, in any case

What Muslims do and what the Quran says are different things. No one denies people are killed for leaving Islam, it happens, people are nuts. Do your own research and use the source you quote, the Quran. See if you can find a place it mentions killing anyone.

Fair enough, I do concede that I was just remembering things from other threads, and may have misspoken somewhat. However, I will prefer not to look at something provided by wayfarer as he is far to afterglow for me.

It seems pretty impartial and does indicate that their is debate and different interpretations amongst Islamic scholars. However, this does not mean that apostasy does not have consequences.

And it seems it is the hadith that states punishments for apostasy more clearly. To folks like me, Quran, hadiths etc are one and the same in being the tenets of Islam.

A pertinent paragraph or two:

"According to Abdul Rashied Omar, the majority of modern Muslim scholars continue to hold the traditional view that the death penalty for apostasy is required by the two primary sources of Sharia - the Quran and the Hadiths.[13] Others argue that the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment,[18][19][20][21] inconsistent with the Qur'anic injunctions such as Quran 88:21-22[22] or "no compulsion in religion"

"As such moderate Muslims reject such penalty.[22] According to critics, the death penalty or other punishment for apostasy in Islam is a violation of universal human rights, and an issue of freedom of faith and conscience"

However:

"Under current laws in Islamic countries, the prescribed punishment for the apostate (or murtadd مرتد) ranges from execution to prison term to no punishment.[28][29] Sharia courts in some countries use civil code to void the Muslim apostate’s marriage and deny child custody rights, as well as his or her inheritance rights for apostasy.[30] In the years 1985-2006, four individuals were executed by governments for apostasy from Islam: "one in Sudan in 1985; two in Iran, in 1989 and 1998; and one in Saudi Arabia in 1992."[23] Twenty-three Muslim-majority countries, as of 2013, additionally covered apostasy in Islam through their criminal laws.[31]"

So, I will retract my statement about many deaths (although there have been some) and Quran; but my point still stands that their is not much free will involved where rejection of Islam carries such consequences. And this excludes the "soft" or intangible ones such as being ostracized by family and community should one choose not to follow Islam.

Islam as Primordiality

Originally Posted by Splinter

Fair enough, I do concede that I was just remembering things from other threads, and may have misspoken somewhat. However, I will prefer not to look at something provided by wayfarer as he is far to afterglow for me.

It seems pretty impartial and does indicate that their is debate and different interpretations amongst Islamic scholars. However, this does not mean that apostasy does not have consequences.

And it seems it is the hadith that states punishments for apostasy more clearly. To folks like me, Quran, hadiths etc are one and the same in being the tenets of Islam.

A pertinent paragraph or two:

"According to Abdul Rashied Omar, the majority of modern Muslim scholars continue to hold the traditional view that the death penalty for apostasy is required by the two primary sources of Sharia - the Quran and the Hadiths.[13] Others argue that the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment,[18][19][20][21] inconsistent with the Qur'anic injunctions such as Quran 88:21-22[22] or "no compulsion in religion"

"As such moderate Muslims reject such penalty.[22] According to critics, the death penalty or other punishment for apostasy in Islam is a violation of universal human rights, and an issue of freedom of faith and conscience"

However:

"Under current laws in Islamic countries, the prescribed punishment for the apostate (or murtadd مرتد) ranges from execution to prison term to no punishment.[28][29] Sharia courts in some countries use civil code to void the Muslim apostate’s marriage and deny child custody rights, as well as his or her inheritance rights for apostasy.[30] In the years 1985-2006, four individuals were executed by governments for apostasy from Islam: "one in Sudan in 1985; two in Iran, in 1989 and 1998; and one in Saudi Arabia in 1992."[23] Twenty-three Muslim-majority countries, as of 2013, additionally covered apostasy in Islam through their criminal laws.[31]"

So, I will retract my statement about many deaths (although there have been some) and Quran; but my point still stands that their is not much free will involved where rejection of Islam carries such consequences. And this excludes the "soft" or intangible ones such as being ostracized by family and community should one choose not to follow Islam.

There is still free will. Any consequences relating to ostracizing is simply that, a consequence. Whether the consequence is right or wrong (it is wrong) will be debated between conservative Islamic communities and the rest of society without taking into account the vast difference in social structures, cultural differences etc. That being said you cannot say there is no free will due to the consequences (remind you again this is highly debatable).

In certain Islamic countries they regard religion as part and parcel of the national identity, and therefore forsaking the religion is to commit treason against the state. In modern times this is an absurd way of thinking as the countries are not at war with anyone (generally). In this instance yes your free will is taken away for fear of imprisonment, death etc. This does not mean it is a practice condoned by Islam, there are cultural aspects, literal interpretation, and other factors at play. By all means stand together against this evil practice but let's not go and bundle it together with everything else and call it Islam.

Edit: note that I never claimed Apostasy has no consequences, I challenged your claim that the Quran has clear consequences for it.

There is still free will. Any consequences relating to ostracizing is simply that, a consequence. Whether the consequence is right or wrong (it is wrong) will be debated between conservative Islamic communities and the rest of society without taking into account the vast difference in social structures, cultural differences etc. That being said you cannot say there is no free will due to the consequences (remind you again this is highly debatable).

In certain Islamic countries they regard religion as part and parcel of the national identity, and therefore forsaking the religion is to commit treason against the state. In modern times this is an absurd way of thinking as the countries are not at war with anyone (generally). In this instance yes your free will is taken away for fear of imprisonment, death etc. This does not mean it is a practice condoned by Islam, there are cultural aspects, literal interpretation, and other factors at play. By all means stand together against this evil practice but let's not go and bundle it together with everything else and call it Islam.

Edit: note that I never claimed Apostasy has no consequences, I challenged your claim that the Quran has clear consequences for it.

Yep, and I conceded that the Quran has no clear consequences for it. But it does not change the fact that this lack of clarity hardly ever falls on the side of the apostate.

Islam as Primordiality

Yep, and I conceded that the Quran has no clear consequences for it. But it does not change the fact that this lack of clarity hardly ever falls on the side of the apostate.

But what about the "Hadith's"?

What people do is ultimately either good or evil. You can take the most innocent thing and twist it to suit ones agenda, at the end of the day that's the crux of it.

The Hadiths are not something one takes lightly as it is very open to interpretation and needs to be viewed in its context. There is an entire science dedicated to the study and interpretation of Hadith. The fact that there is a dispute between scholars on the consequences of apostasy is proof enough that it is not as clear cut as some people make it seem. Again it comes back to the fact at the end of the day people play into their predispositions when using Hadith to justify their actions.

Edit: I also disagree that the lack of clarity does not fall on the side of the apostate. Your source in the previous post alone attests to that fact. Only 4 people killed (Despicable) vs the multitude of people who have left Islam and yet nothing has happened to them (generally). Sure in some countries like Saudi it might be impossible to leave Islam without consequences, however the bulk of the world is not Saudi (thank God).

Let me be frank with you - I think you are just pulling a flowery con job here. Don't tell me what my questions relate to. I will tell you what my questions are. And I am asking them of wayfarer in a post he created about Islam - not universal issues.

So all you are trying to do is deflect.

Your condescending and disingenuous "why it is that you're getting bogged down in the minutiae of these rather shallow questions is beyond me" is regarded with the contempt it deserves.

Or you can explain to me how people killed for apostasy, with respect to Islam, would concur with you that this is "minutiae".

I have no other motive than to try and answer your questions. You are very focused, by my observation of your questions, on the things which are clear to me are man written into the scriptures. You are also focused in this short discussion on the consequences of rejecting the faith you are indoctrinated in.

I would hazard a guess that these are important questions to you hence the dogged pursuit of an answer. The short answer is, Islam is a religion of kindness and peace. Religion and god deal with matters of the soul.
The growth of a soul is determined by the actions it takes while in physical form. It's motivations, thoughts and actions leave indelible marks upon it, which it will one day be judged.

Do yourself a favor and read up on cognitive bias and open your eyes on how it colors religion like a Picasso painting.
Once you are aware of how people try to control or influence other people, then you will be able to discern the hand of god or man in the scriptures as easily as one can see the canvas without the paint.

All I am pointing out, is that you are getting caught up in man made consequences for actions (yes, they are very rarely fair), instead of the ones which really matter and affect your soul.
I am trying to highlight the importance of the decisions upon which thoughts you dwell over.

[CHKNHD] Precognition with lag
"A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man will follow public opinion"

What people do is ultimately either good or evil. You can take the most innocent thing and twist it to suit ones agenda, at the end of the day that's the crux of it.

The Hadiths are not something one takes lightly as it is very open to interpretation and needs to be viewed in its context. There is an entire science dedicated to the study and interpretation of Hadith. The fact that there is a dispute between scholars on the consequences of apostasy is proof enough that it is not as clear cut as some people make it seem. Again it comes back to the fact at the end of the day people play into their predispositions when using Hadith to justify their actions.

Edit: I also disagree that the lack of clarity does not fall on the side of the apostate. Your source in the previous post alone attests to that fact. Only 4 people killed (Despicable) vs the multitude of people who have left Islam and yet nothing has happened to them (generally). Sure in some countries like Saudi it might be impossible to leave Islam without consequences, however the bulk of the world is not Saudi (thank God).

I have no other motive than to try and answer your questions. You are very focused, by my observation of your questions, on the things which are clear to me are man written into the scriptures. You are also focused in this short discussion on the consequences of rejecting the faith you are indoctrinated in.

I would hazard a guess that these are important questions to you hence the dogged pursuit of an answer. The short answer is, Islam is a religion of kindness and peace. Religion and god deal with matters of the soul.
The growth of a soul is determined by the actions it takes while in physical form. It's motivations, thoughts and actions leave indelible marks upon it, which it will one day be judged.

Do yourself a favor and read up on cognitive bias and open your eyes on how it colors religion like a Picasso painting.
Once you are aware of how people try to control or influence other people, then you will be able to discern the hand of god or man in the scriptures as easily as one can see the canvas without the paint.

All I am pointing out, is that you are getting caught up in man made consequences for actions (yes, they are very rarely fair), instead of the ones which really matter and affect your soul.
I am trying to highlight the importance of the decisions upon which thoughts you dwell over.

So now you are answering on behalf of Islam? Cool. So Islam is a religion of kindness and peace? Strange that Sunni and Shia muslims seem to be killing each other almost daily. And that most of the conflicts in the world today are in the name of this religion. But I digress.

Obviously I'm caught up in the man-made consequences for actions. I don't believe in deities that hide in the sky and refuse to show their faces. I am very intrigued though how you claim to know how to discern the hand of god or man in the scriptures. So you saying that some of the scriptures are man made then?

Another question, this idea that god didn't and doesn't appear to us in order that we have free will - is this stated in the scriptures, or is it a man made concept?

Oh yes - I don't think anyone answered what the post-death consequence is for being a "god-denier" according to Islam?