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Between the Rye, Pastrami’s Canadian Rival

By Jennifer 8. Lee December 4, 2009 7:30 amDecember 4, 2009 7:30 am

Jennifer 8. Lee/The New York TimesSmoked meat, a Montreal deli specialty that is similar to New York pastrami, is coming to Brooklyn. Above is a sandwich from Schwartz’s Deli in Montreal, which served as an inspiration for a Boerum Hill restaurant named Mile End.

Now a Montreal native who lives in New York, Noah Bernamoff, is opening up a restaurant called Mile End in Boerum Hill to serve smoked meat. The 27-year-old sometimes Brooklyn Law School student is sinking his savings into the 25-by-25-foot store, where he will serve the sandwiches himself. Mr. Bernamoff, who has no experience in professional cooking or running a restaurant, said: “I feel very passionate toward smoking and very passionate toward the food of Montreal.” (He also loves Montreal bagels. Imagine if he combined them)

Smoked meat is a symbol of his childhood — and something with no direct counterpart in New York. “Smoked meat is the big flavors of the pastrami but cured in the ways of corned beef,” said Mr. Bernamoff. “It tries to break down the fat that pastrami doesn’t quite break down.”

He spent a long time experimenting with the curing, smoking and steaming to find the right texture and taste. New York deli meats were a mixed bag. “I just find New York City corned beef to be very low on the flavor scale,” he said. “I do like pastrami. It’s certainly very good.”

And he looked at his childhood. “I am constantly inspired by Schwartz’s,” said Mr. Bernamoff, referring to Schwartz’s Delicatessen, a Montreal eatery that is famed for its staple meal: smoked meat on rye, French fries, pickle and black cherry soda. (It was, in City Room’s estimation, an impressive culinary experience.)

But what did Schwartz’s employees think of the New York offshoot they inspired?

Thrusting his finger at the coarse cuts, he said, “It’s not even slices, it’s pieces.” He was visibly agitated. “You’re supposed to slice it against the grain,” he said. The meat is supposed to be thin enough to melt in your mouth. “It’s terrible if that is what he is selling,” he said.

Told of Mr. Silva’s reaction, Mr. Bernamoff admitted, “The last step in making a smoked meat sandwich is cutting, and that is by far the one I am the weakest at.” But he defended himself, saying it was definitely against the grain. “It was just thickly cut,” he said. Even with a sharpest of the sharp knives, he can’t recreate the melt-in-your mouth sensation found at Montreal delis. “I don’t slice 75 briskets a day,” he said.

Ed Levine, a food writer who runs Seriouseats.com, noted that pastrami is being revitalized. Michael Anthony is making his own pastrami at Gramercy Tavern, as is James McDuffee at Joseph Leonard. There will be a space in the city’s ethnic cuisine puzzle for Canadian smoked meat. “New Yorkers are in love with smoked meats of all kinds, so Montreal smoked meat will be welcomed with open arms,” he wrote in an e-mail message. “Not as a replacement for our beloved pastrami, but as a pleasant curiosity and something new to try.”

Here we go again. Another CR-inspired “kosher” food fight – in the same week as bagels no less!

I’ve had smoked meat up in Montreal and it’s quite good. It would be a worthy addition to any Kosher-style deli in NY.

I guess I don’t consider life to be an endless string of either/or choices. Pastrami and smoked beef (as well as corned beef too) can all co-exist on a menu together. After all, NYC has always welcomed immigrants and their cuisine.

Besides, if we’re going to get “native” Canadian food – I’d rather a Montreal-style smoked meat sandwich than a Tim Horton’s beaver tail donut-concoction any day….

1) I can’t wait to try it.
2) The Pastrami at Katz Deli is sublime.
3) The Carnegie Deli is not worth the wait, head downtown to Katz.
4) Sarge’s deli on Third Ave. is under-rated.
5) Sarah Palin is a dangerous lunatic.

I have tried Montreal smoked meat, more than once. I live in Vermont. Born and raised in Brooklyn, Nothing, nothing can compare with NY Pastrami. I wish I could afford to have Carnegie Deli ship me some of it’s Pastrami.

I thought it was called smoked beef at the Montreal place that made it famous (Ben’s). As in “le smoked beef sandwich.” I believe there was a ruling that this had a secondary meaning and was therefore permissible under the language law.

Under no circumstances would I accept the assertion that Montreal smoked meat is quintessentially Canadian. Yes, there was always Montreal-style smoked meat, but there was also pastrami. In fact, in my French-Canadian family, we always preferred pastrami because Montreal-style smoked meat is generally thicker, chewier, saltier, and much fatter.

I agree with Frank de Silva and SqueezeBottle regarding the thickness of the cuts — It isn’t as authentically thin as Schwartz’s. But what Frank doesn’t know is how I cure or smoke or steam my meat so making a claim that it’s terribly non-mouthwatering is short-sighted. Anyone who has made even a standard oven braised brisket will tell you that the meat gets to a point of no return, and by no return, I mean won’t hold together. My thicker cuts are a reflection of this reality, as I know that I cure, smoke (with natural hardwoods), and steam my meat more extensively than anyone in Montreal. The result is a brisket that can barely hold itself together even before the knife hits the fat cap.
About the poutine: I have been experimenting with many different gravies and homemade stocks. The one in the photo was made with white wine and clear chicken stock, which I will admit was not as good as the traditional darker gravy. That said, I don’t think that adhering to the way things are done in Montreal solely for the sake of tradition is the right way of doing things. What do you prefer, commodity grade briskets and powdered gravy or pastured dry-aged briskets and poutine made from actual livestock, small-batch cheddar curds, and duck fat fries?

I am convinced there is no difference between smoked meat and pastrami; the debate only occurs when you compare smoked meat with the inferior industrialized product that passes as pastrami in the American marketplace.

Find a deli that makes its own pastrami (or make it yourself) and viola “smoked meat”. Industrial processes inject spiced liquids into the meat to speed up the curing process and the result is tough and oddly flavored pastrami.

The real story is that by sticking to traditional methods the best pastrami/smoked meat is in Montreal and not New York. The problem with “faster, quicker cheaper” in processed food is that people forget what the real thing tasted like.

The meat looks good and my taste great. But … the bread?
Don’t let me get started ’cause I will anyway! One glance at the picture and you know this bread is mediocre. Pardonnez-moi, you should know! I’m screaming already? Yes! A great sandwich without great bread? Impossible!!!
So fix it! Or else fuhgeddaboutid!

When I was last in Montreal I made a pilgrimage to Schwartz’s. I found the meat dry and salty, nothing I wanted to eat again.
Montreal is definitely improving in the bagel department, but many years ago, when I lived in NYC and was going to visit my cousins in Montreal, I asked if there was anything they would like me to bring, and they said, “BAGELS!”

The best pastrami in North America is at Langer’s Deli in Los Angeles (just west of downtown L.A.). I was at Schwartz’s in Montreal a few months ago, and it is a good sandwich, but it’s dry compared to a really flavor-filled pastrami like at Langer’s.

I live in Canada, where I try – in vain – to help the natives understand not only the superiority of New York deli food in general – and pastrami, of course, in particular – but also the vast gulf between the sad doughy concoction that passes for a bagel in Montreal and the wondrous delicacy that goes by the same name in New York.

A Montreal writer – his book recently reviewed by the Times – proclaimed the world’s greatest deli to be in LOS ANGELES, for crying out loud. This tells you A) what they know in Canada and B) all you need to know about Canadian deli.

Thank you Ms. Lee finally setting the record straight; pastırma (pastrami) is a Turkish food, even though the word might have seeped into Yiddish first; certainly not the New York Pastrami that is undoubtedly a New Yorker.

For the Canadian entrepreneur: smoked meat is just that: smoked meat! Take away the accouterments and ceremonial clothes of an ancient emperor and present him to his subjects as stark naked: that is the difference between pastrami and the smoked meat.

I’m a vegetarian, but my family has a history of small grocery stores with butcher shops. I always thought that what we in French called “smoked meat” was made from brisket, while most pastrami is from the eye of round. This makes the latter a much finer meat. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Schwartz’s smoked meat is in a class by itself. It’s better and far more flavourful than anywhere else I’ve eaten in Montreal. Dry and salty? The customer must have gone there on a very off day.
I believe their recipe is from the founder’s Romanian background. I hope I’ve got the country right.

In Canada they slice their corn beef and pastrami thin. I like both kinds of slicing, quite different. Canadian pastrami is not nearly as spicy as the NY variety. Much closer in taste to corned beef. I much prefer the NY (American) variety.

As a person who has had Good Pastrami, Good Corned Beef and Good Smoked Beef, I’d have to say to all of you who instantly compare it to Pastrami and find it wanting, that you are narrow minded.

I think of course that the problem stems from the author’s point of view that Smoked meat is a replacement for Pastrami. It isn’t. They would not be exclusive of one another. It wouldn’t be that if you have smoked meat at your deli counter you somehow have to eliminate or otherwise diminish your pastrami offering. It would be more accurate to call it a complimentary alternative.

I can see where she might get that perception however.

I LOVE pastrami, however it does not love me. (I can’t eat any quantity without suffering an insufferable indigestion that can’t be touched by even the newest greatest indigestion medicines).

It is because of this, that I am left to having Corned Beef on Rye at the great deli’s in the New York city area. This has led me to find that there seems to be a dichotomy when it comes to Pastrami and Corned beef in the New York region. The better a Deli’s Pastrami, the worse it’s corned beef, and the better it’s corned beef the worse it’s pastrami is.

I can only assume that it’s because the deli’s owners/operators have a passion for one or the other, and therefore the one they are not so passionate about suffers. I have had my greatest pastrami in the old Jewish delis, but my best Corned Beef on Rye experience was not in NYC, but in Central Islip on Long Island. It was a strip mall deli near where I was doing some subcontracting. We tried the pastrami and it was horrible. So dry, you would go through two cans of soda just to choke it down (as an example, if you tore off a piece of meat and rubbed it between your thumb and finger, it would turn to meat dust). On the other hand, the Corned beef on rye was a full half a pound of perfectly seasoned and thinly sliced corned beef brisket. It wasn’t too briny as many in the city are, nor too dry nor tough. It brought into focus the dichotomy of Pastrami and Corned beef in the New York region.

It doesn’t need to be so.

Here in WNY (Buffalo), we do not enjoy the wonder delis that those in NYC often take for granted. In fact, there so far has only been one successful NYC style deli, called Maybeck’s. Maybeck’s does not have access to the same meats as NYC, they make do with what they have though, and although light years ahead of the other so called deli’s here in the area, they would probably only be considered adequate to good in comparison to most deli’s in NYC. The thing is though, they have Pastrami and corned beef that are equally great. So, it can be done…

Now, as for the smoked meat not being sliced thin, give me a break! Those of you who say that, demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of the meat itself. Brisket which is the basis for all three meat curings we are talking about here has a generous amount of fat in it. It is that fat that holds it all together and is what allows both Pastrami and Corned Beef to be sliced so thinly across the grain. Smoked meat on the other hand renders that fat to liquid in the processing, so much so that the meat literally falls apart no matter how you slice it.

If you talk to anyone who is a smoked meat aficionado, they will tell you, a thickly sliced fresh smoked meat on rye sandwich is far better than one where it is thinly sliced. This is because in order to thinly slice smoked meat, you have to chill the brisket after processing, slice it while chilled and then re-heat the meat. This process loses most of the moisture and the aroma that are distinctive of smoked meat. Not something that anyone who’s had a good smoked meat on rye would ever ascribe to.

FYI…

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