Life is too short and too precious. There is no saving the world. People are going to believe what they want to. All we can do is what we as individuals think right. I don't think it's right to believe in a cruel god and I don't think it's right to be a cruel human.

You are right that there is no saving the world because people will think and do as they like.

After 2000 years, Jesus Christ still hasn't figured that out. Neither has God and he's had 6000 years to figure it out. Still, people who think whatever they want somehow deduce that the Jesus/God entity still gives a damn. That really strikes me as strange.

My beliefs are sacred to me. I am protective of them and so are you over your beliefs. I do not concede that I'm not convinced there is no god simply because of that. Y'all just haven't offered anything more appealing!!!

If that is true, then all it means is that you could define what is more appealing to you, and then we could deliver it to you. By adhering to what you find appealing, you are admitting to SPAG. We know that all religious people do this. People don't stick with religions or religious positions that they don't like. They seek out gods, religions or opinions that match their own.

Median as far as your comments go. I have revealed a lot here. I'm sorry you missed it. I guess in a way you are right. My beliefs are sacred to me. I am protective of them and so are you over your beliefs.

Two things. First, what you have just presented here is called Confirmation Bias. It shows that you don't really care if your beliefs are true (aka - you hold your beliefs tightly instead of allowing them to fluctuate with better evidence and sound reasoning). All is not lost though. Admitting the problem is the first step to recovery from it. May you be governed by reason and rationale thinking! :wink: Secondly, I do not have beliefs regarding a god (just like I don't have beliefs regarding astrology). I just lack belief in those things. So the charge that I am somehow protective of my beliefs (as you are yours) is a false one. I do however, have some beliefs about some things in life but I hold those beliefs with an open hand, not a closed one.

I do not concede that I'm not convinced there is no god simply because of that. Y'all just haven't offered anything more appealing!!! So call me delusional , say I have an argument from ignorance I don't care. I'm ignorantly happy, most of the time, and I like it. I have respect for the source of life I call that source God.

Again, thank you very very much (and quite sincerely) for admitting that you are practicing irrational thinking and ignorance. It is the first step toward better thinking and reasoning. This also includes the notion that in order for you to give up your belief in a God/afterlife you must have something "more appealing" to put in its place. This is also irrational. If there was rotten garbage festering underneath your house you wouldn't need to put something in its place after disposing of it. All you would need is to get rid of it. If later you decided to store other more 'fresh' things there that would be a different story altogether but it wouldn't be a requirement.

I am reminded of a sermon by the theologian Tillich. I thought it might be of interest to you:

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Look at the student who knows the content of the hundred most important books of world history, and yet whose spiritual life remains as shallow as it ever was… And then look at the uneducated worker who … suddenly asks himself: ‘What does it mean, that I do this work? What does it mean for my life? What is the meaning of my life?’ Because he asks these questions, that man is on the way into depth, where as ... the student … dwells on the surface…

The depth of thought is part of the depth of life. Most of our life continues on the surface. We are enslaved by the routine of our daily lives, in work and pleasure, in business and recreation. We are conquered by innumerable hazards, both good and evil. We are more driven than driving. We do not stop to look at … the depth below us … We are in constant motion and never stop to plunge into the depth. … We accept ourselves as we appear to ourselves, and do not care what we really are … We miss, therefore, our depth and our true life. […]

[M]ystics and priests, poets and philosophers, simple people and educated people … [t]hey have found that they were not what they believed themselves to be, even after a deeper level had appeared to them below the vanishing surface. That deeper level itself became a surface, when as still deeper level was discovered, this happening again and again, as long as their very lives, as long as they kept on the road to their depth.

Today a new … method has become famous the so-called ‘psychology of depth’*. It leads us from the surface of our self-knowledge into levels where things are recorded which we knew nothing about on the surface of our consciousness. … It can help us find the way into our depth, although it cannot help us in an ultimate way, because it cannot guide us to the deepest ground of our being and of all being, the depth, of life itself.

The name of this infinite and inexhaustible depth and ground of all being is God. That depth is what the word God means. And if that word has not much meaning for you, translate it, and speak of the depths of your life, of the source of your being, of your ultimate concern, of what you take seriously without any reservation. Perhaps, in order to do so, you must forget everything traditional that you have learnt about God, perhaps even that word itself. For if you know that God means depth, you know much about Him. You cannot then call yourself an atheist or unbeliever. For you cannot think or say: Life has no depth! … He who knows about depth knows about God.

- Paul Tillich The Depth of Existence published in The Shaking of the Foundations.

ps. Listen to Chronos' wisdom. Nam's "style" is punishing, I tend to avoid debating with him simply because my blood pressure can't take it. Dude's an attack dog, nothing wrong with that, but the more you engage with him the more likely you are to get mauled.

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"Goodness is about what you do. Not who you pray to." - Terry Pratchett

Hello, how can I offer somebody the love I want to share if I ignore them.

So your determination to "offer the love you want to share" is somehow of greater importance than Nam's clearly stated desire that you NOT do so? How much more clearly does your "offer" have to be rejected before it stops being an "offer" and becomes a demand, coercion, or a threat? For someone who gets bent out of shape about being referred to as religious, your behavior looks identical.

So far, months into the pitch, no one is buying what you are selling. It isn't that your audience doesn't understand your "message"; your "message" is absolutely meaningless to everyone but you. That's why it's called SPAG - it's YOUR self-projection.

As far as spag goes. There are 100's of thousands of people out there with the same beliefs as myself. In fact, I was informed a few days back that my spag is in agreement with Gene Roddenberry's spag. I'm proud to be a spagger. I don't trust others to guide me through the deepest questions in my mind. You can't find anything cruel about my belief!!!

Why would a person not want to be treated with kindness? Either way if he doesn't like my kindness he should just let me alone. That's who I am his polar opposite. I am kind he is cruel. I'm not going to change.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

As far as spag goes. There are 100's of thousands of people out there with the same beliefs as myself. In fact, I was informed a few days back that my spag is in agreement with Gene Roddenberry's spag.

Oh, I bet there are differences here and there, but anyway, so what? There are millions of xians, and millions of muslims, and millions of hindus and buddhists too. And they could all be as wrong as you are.

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I'm proud to be a spagger.

No surprise there.

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I don't trust others to guide me through the deepest questions in my mind. You can't find anything cruel about my belief!!!

Who said they were cruel? Nobody here said they were cruel, just wrong. Wrong as in not a reflection of reality. Not the truth, if you will.

JB, I have never called you stupid. I have not criticized you, either. I have tried to take what you say seriously, and have offered suggestions towards a more productive discussion of your ideas on this site.

Several times I have asked you specific questions, which you don't generally answer. I have written long and thoughtful posts which you either ignore entirely, or skim superficially and pick out one word or phrase to respond to out of context.

In the interest of actually having a fun and interesting conversation, I have suggested that you stop engaging with Nam, because that seems to sidetrack the discussion into exchanges of silly insults. If you want to keep on using your time and energy to fight with Nam over whether he thinks you really have cancer, or are an idiot, so be it. We can get you two a padded room.

However, I would rather we use our time and energy to talk about what you believe and why. If you would just focus on that, I would appreciate it.

Nogods,

Ok you got it. As far as whether or not I have cancer you can see my port a path in the video I posted. You can also see the bracelet I wear to alert medical staff of it's existence. You can't miss the bald head!!!

I have never ignored your posts. I respond to what I feel needs responding too. Same as what everybody does with mine. In fact one of my favorite post was the one you posted in my chemo thread about Grace Jones. I miss your support and Jags. I need all the support I can get.

I don't think you're interesting in my beliefs. Y'all don't understand me and that's ok I don't understand y'all either. I don't even care why, I sum it up as different strokes for different folks!

I think it basically boils down to I blame mankind for the suffering in this world; y'all blame a so called non existent god. I would like to focus more on what we do agree on; how bad religion is for our society!!!

I'm sure I said you were not in the name calling category.

You can find me in the Shelter, "Love Can Build a Bridge" or in my chemo thread. Let Nam have the main discussion zone and hopefully our paths will no longer cross.

Peace,JB

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Dante:Who said they were cruel? Nobody here said they were cruel, just wrong. Wrong as in not a reflection of reality. Not the truth, if you will.

It is a reflection of my reality which of course would not be the same as yours.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

I think it basically boils down to I blame mankind for the suffering in this world; y'all blame a so called non existent god. I would like to focus more on what we do agree on; how bad religion is for our society!!!

As an atheist I certainly do not blame a god for world suffering, how can you blame something that does not exist ?Sometimes crap just happens.It also does not add up to blame mankind for world suffering.Are the medical staff you mentioned humans or gods- who is actually trying to treat you?I do wish you all the best with your treatment, I hate to see living creatures suffer.I wonder how a god could ever stomach it?

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Gods are all good.Gods, even though they are responsible for everything bad, are still good guys.Gods can watch suffering because people get to go to heaven.Gays, atheists, other religions and more are not allowed in heaven because they do not worship the monster- i mean god.Because i am meant to be good, because god is all good, i can threaten you will eternal pain for not being a sheep- i mean follower of religion.Because i say all morals come from god, you therefore have no morals and must be stalinistic hitler nazi pirates who eat babies.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Gods are all good.Gods, even though they are responsible for everything bad, are still good guys.Gods can watch suffering because people get to go to heaven.Gays, atheists, other religions and more are not allowed in heaven because they do not worship the monster- i mean god.Because i am meant to be good, because god is all good, i can threaten you will eternal pain for not being a sheep- i mean follower of religion.Because i say all morals come from god, you therefore have no morals and must be stalinistic hitler nazi pirates who eat babies.

Then to add, what god.If you do not believe in Allah, you are infidel scum and will be blown up, because we are a religion of peace.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Because i am meant to be good, because god is all good, i can threaten you will eternal pain for not being a sheep- i mean follower of religion.

It is funny how you could describe the generally attributed characteristics of sheep (without using the word sheep): slow, followers, stupid, dependent, directionless, dirty, fearful, etc and most humans would refuse those terms - but a fundy loves to talk about being a sheep and following the shepherd. I never liked the sheep "analogy" as a believer, but ignored the cognitive disonance for far too many years. I no longer pull the wool over my own eyes.

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving their god is. - neopagan

And if a sheep strays too far from his Shepard, he is feasted on by wolves (atheists) .

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Hello, how can I offer somebody the love I want to share if I ignore them.

So your determination to "offer the love you want to share" is somehow of greater importance than Nam's clearly stated desire that you NOT do so? How much more clearly does your "offer" have to be rejected before it stops being an "offer" and becomes a demand, coercion, or a threat? For someone who gets bent out of shape about being referred to as religious, your behavior looks identical.

So far, months into the pitch, no one is buying what you are selling. It isn't that your audience doesn't understand your "message"; your "message" is absolutely meaningless to everyone but you. That's why it's called SPAG - it's YOUR self-projection.

As far as spag goes. There are 100's of thousands of people out there with the same beliefs as myself. In fact, I was informed a few days back that my spag is in agreement with Gene Roddenberry's spag. I'm proud to be a spagger. I don't trust others to guide me through the deepest questions in my mind. You can't find anything cruel about my belief!!!

Why would a person not want to be treated with kindness? Either way if he doesn't like my kindness he should just let me alone. That's who I am his polar opposite. I am kind he is cruel. I'm not going to change.

You've either missed the point entirely, or are pretending to miss the point - again. I don't doubt your sincerity, but you continue to demonstrate that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

^^^No worries, I just thought it was kind of funny that she picked up on THAT subtle hint while missing so many clearly spelled out points, complete with links, definitions, and evidence. A random ability to "understand" what is and is not being said? I've never seen selective ignorance employed quite like this before.

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin