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The Red Stands for Irony

ElijahSnowFan wrote:That's the funny thing about this series: I can explain exactly where I feel it's written well. You, on the other hand, use generalities and hyperbole to say...what, exactly?

What isn't written well, Blue? What segment of the book, which issues, do you have problems with? How would you have resolved them?

You're not offering that up...why? If the book is so bad, it seems to me that it'd be pretty damn easy to explain how you would have done it better.

How detailed would you like me to go? Would you like me to run through the eight issues and pick out every page that's unnecessary to the plot (there's a lot), every example of lazy storytelling (there's a lot) or every example of a lack of characterization (there's a lot). I mean, that might take a few months, but I could probably give you a detailed blow by blow dissertation as to why this comic is objectively terrible.

This is a comic so bad, CBR and Newsarama are giving it bad reviews. CBR and Newsarama.

The Red Stands for Irony

ElijahSnowFan wrote:That's the funny thing about this series: I can explain exactly where I feel it's written well. You, on the other hand, use generalities and hyperbole to say...what, exactly?

What isn't written well, Blue? What segment of the book, which issues, do you have problems with? How would you have resolved them?

You're not offering that up...why? If the book is so bad, it seems to me that it'd be pretty damn easy to explain how you would have done it better.

How detailed would you like me to go? Would you like me to run through the eight issues and pick out every page that's unnecessary to the plot (there's a lot), every example of lazy storytelling (there's a lot) or every example of a lack of characterization (there's a lot). I mean, that might take a few months, but I could probably give you a detailed blow by blow dissertation as to why this comic is objectively terrible.

This is a comic so bad, CBR and Newsarama are giving it bad reviews. CBR and Newsarama.

cheese

BlueStreak wrote:How detailed would you like me to go? Would you like me to run through the eight issues and pick out every page that's unnecessary to the plot (there's a lot), every example of lazy storytelling (there's a lot) or every example of a lack of characterization (there's a lot). I mean, that might take a few months, but I could probably give you a detailed blow by blow dissertation as to why this comic is objectively terrible.

This is a comic so bad, CBR and Newsarama are giving it bad reviews. CBR and Newsarama.

Anything you'd care to offer would be better than, "Oh, it sucks. It's like Amazons Attack!"

It doesn't advance the conversation at all to just throw that stuff around -- again, we can agree to disagree. But I just took the time to point out where I think that Susan Richards was clearly given a choice to make, and it was interesting.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But you don't have to come on down from the mount and act like everyone who doesn't agree with you, who finds the series to be good, is some kind of idiot -- there's clearly character development for some of these characters! The art has been good-to-great! The story isn't groundbreaking, and I've acknowledged that, but it's interesting nonetheless and well within established continuity AND provides alternate timeline storytelling!

I'm not an idiot -- just because the 'Rama and CBR do and don't like something means absolutely nothing to me. What, did Bryan Hitch, Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco forget how to freaking draw?

cheese

BlueStreak wrote:How detailed would you like me to go? Would you like me to run through the eight issues and pick out every page that's unnecessary to the plot (there's a lot), every example of lazy storytelling (there's a lot) or every example of a lack of characterization (there's a lot). I mean, that might take a few months, but I could probably give you a detailed blow by blow dissertation as to why this comic is objectively terrible.

This is a comic so bad, CBR and Newsarama are giving it bad reviews. CBR and Newsarama.

Anything you'd care to offer would be better than, "Oh, it sucks. It's like Amazons Attack!"

It doesn't advance the conversation at all to just throw that stuff around -- again, we can agree to disagree. But I just took the time to point out where I think that Susan Richards was clearly given a choice to make, and it was interesting.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But you don't have to come on down from the mount and act like everyone who doesn't agree with you, who finds the series to be good, is some kind of idiot -- there's clearly character development for some of these characters! The art has been good-to-great! The story isn't groundbreaking, and I've acknowledged that, but it's interesting nonetheless and well within established continuity AND provides alternate timeline storytelling!

I'm not an idiot -- just because the 'Rama and CBR do and don't like something means absolutely nothing to me. What, did Bryan Hitch, Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco forget how to freaking draw?

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

Rain Partier

It doesn't advance the conversation at all to just throw that stuff around -- again, we can agree to disagree. But I just took the time to point out where I think that Susan Richards was clearly given a choice to make, and it was interesting.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But you don't have to come on down from the mount and act like everyone who doesn't agree with you, who finds the series to be good, is some kind of idiot -- there's clearly character development for some of these characters! The art has been good-to-great! The story isn't groundbreaking, and I've acknowledged that, but it's interesting nonetheless and well within established continuity AND provides alternate timeline storytelling!

I'm not an idiot -- just because the 'Rama and CBR do and don't like something means absolutely nothing to me. What, did Bryan Hitch, Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco forget how to freaking draw?

I may be the lone wolf on this, but I'm not entirely sure Peterson ever knew how in the first place.

It doesn't advance the conversation at all to just throw that stuff around -- again, we can agree to disagree. But I just took the time to point out where I think that Susan Richards was clearly given a choice to make, and it was interesting.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But you don't have to come on down from the mount and act like everyone who doesn't agree with you, who finds the series to be good, is some kind of idiot -- there's clearly character development for some of these characters! The art has been good-to-great! The story isn't groundbreaking, and I've acknowledged that, but it's interesting nonetheless and well within established continuity AND provides alternate timeline storytelling!

I'm not an idiot -- just because the 'Rama and CBR do and don't like something means absolutely nothing to me. What, did Bryan Hitch, Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco forget how to freaking draw?

I may be the lone wolf on this, but I'm not entirely sure Peterson ever knew how in the first place.

cheese

chap22 wrote:I may be the lone wolf on this, but I'm not entirely sure Peterson ever knew how in the first place.

HA! Seriously, I've definitely seen Brandon Peterson's career progression, and I honestly feel he's tightened up his pencils quite a bit since his early Image days. Again, he's not Hitch or Pacheco, but I didn't find anything too jarring in this issue -- what did you see that is bothering you?

cheese

chap22 wrote:I may be the lone wolf on this, but I'm not entirely sure Peterson ever knew how in the first place.

HA! Seriously, I've definitely seen Brandon Peterson's career progression, and I honestly feel he's tightened up his pencils quite a bit since his early Image days. Again, he's not Hitch or Pacheco, but I didn't find anything too jarring in this issue -- what did you see that is bothering you?

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

Silly French Man

It doesn't advance the conversation at all to just throw that stuff around -- again, we can agree to disagree. But I just took the time to point out where I think that Susan Richards was clearly given a choice to make, and it was interesting.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But you don't have to come on down from the mount and act like everyone who doesn't agree with you, who finds the series to be good, is some kind of idiot -- there's clearly character development for some of these characters! The art has been good-to-great! The story isn't groundbreaking, and I've acknowledged that, but it's interesting nonetheless and well within established continuity AND provides alternate timeline storytelling!

I'm not an idiot -- just because the 'Rama and CBR do and don't like something means absolutely nothing to me. What, did Bryan Hitch, Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco forget how to freaking draw?

Honestly other than Punchy, which I guess I should be used too by now, you're the only person that's expressed any positivity towards this series that I've seen.

It doesn't advance the conversation at all to just throw that stuff around -- again, we can agree to disagree. But I just took the time to point out where I think that Susan Richards was clearly given a choice to make, and it was interesting.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But you don't have to come on down from the mount and act like everyone who doesn't agree with you, who finds the series to be good, is some kind of idiot -- there's clearly character development for some of these characters! The art has been good-to-great! The story isn't groundbreaking, and I've acknowledged that, but it's interesting nonetheless and well within established continuity AND provides alternate timeline storytelling!

I'm not an idiot -- just because the 'Rama and CBR do and don't like something means absolutely nothing to me. What, did Bryan Hitch, Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco forget how to freaking draw?

Honestly other than Punchy, which I guess I should be used too by now, you're the only person that's expressed any positivity towards this series that I've seen.

Rain Partier

ElijahSnowFan wrote:HA! Seriously, I've definitely seen Brandon Peterson's career progression, and I honestly feel he's tightened up his pencils quite a bit since his early Image days. Again, he's not Hitch or Pacheco, but I didn't find anything too jarring in this issue -- what did you see that is bothering you?

Rain Partier

ElijahSnowFan wrote:HA! Seriously, I've definitely seen Brandon Peterson's career progression, and I honestly feel he's tightened up his pencils quite a bit since his early Image days. Again, he's not Hitch or Pacheco, but I didn't find anything too jarring in this issue -- what did you see that is bothering you?

cheese

habitual wrote:Honestly other than Punchy, which I guess I should be used too by now, you're the only person that's expressed any positivity towards this series that I've seen.

Hab

And that's fine -- I don't mind being on my own on stuff. I mean, it's like Johns/Frank's new version of Captain Marvel (because I'll never call him that other title).

Some have liked it. Some haven't. I don't. But I'll be the first to acknowledge that Frank's art has been amazing and if someone asked just what I hate about what Johns has done, I'd be willing to answer that (with a post that might be too long, but we know that's how I do things.)

cheese

habitual wrote:Honestly other than Punchy, which I guess I should be used too by now, you're the only person that's expressed any positivity towards this series that I've seen.

Hab

And that's fine -- I don't mind being on my own on stuff. I mean, it's like Johns/Frank's new version of Captain Marvel (because I'll never call him that other title).

Some have liked it. Some haven't. I don't. But I'll be the first to acknowledge that Frank's art has been amazing and if someone asked just what I hate about what Johns has done, I'd be willing to answer that (with a post that might be too long, but we know that's how I do things.)

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

cheese

Ha! No worries -- I'm like that with a few guys, as well. But one thing I can say about Brandon Peterson is this: He has come a long way since his "Codename: Stryke Force" days. It is nice to see guys try to tighten up things, over time.

Ha! No worries -- I'm like that with a few guys, as well. But one thing I can say about Brandon Peterson is this: He has come a long way since his "Codename: Stryke Force" days. It is nice to see guys try to tighten up things, over time.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

The Red Stands for Irony

It doesn't advance the conversation at all to just throw that stuff around -- again, we can agree to disagree. But I just took the time to point out where I think that Susan Richards was clearly given a choice to make, and it was interesting.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But you don't have to come on down from the mount and act like everyone who doesn't agree with you, who finds the series to be good, is some kind of idiot -- there's clearly character development for some of these characters! The art has been good-to-great! The story isn't groundbreaking, and I've acknowledged that, but it's interesting nonetheless and well within established continuity AND provides alternate timeline storytelling!

I'm not an idiot -- just because the 'Rama and CBR do and don't like something means absolutely nothing to me. What, did Bryan Hitch, Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco forget how to freaking draw?

I thought it was interesting that in the early stages of the event, Sue Storm wasn't involved in the murder of Hank Pym at all. They figured Wolverine should have a murder buddy and it needed to be someone that fans wouldn't expect to go along with murder. That ties into one of the fundamental problems of this and most event comics Marvel puts on. Shock first, explanation later. I guess if you can see Sue Storm not bothering to try another course of action other than murder because she has kids solid characterization, then great for you. I don't.

And, frankly, just because you don't like the examples being bandied about doesn't mean they aren't valid. Amazons Attack was a poorly thought out event that was delayed by a year and then haphazardly released, with a handful of mediocre tie-ins and was quickly forgotten about by everyone at the company as DC was much more interested in selling fans their next event. Both had okay art, shitty dialogue and laughably bad characterization/story points. Oh, and Amazons Attack smacked of misogyny, while Age of Ultron killed off its minority characters via a flight of stairs and off-panel in a hut, so they both could launch some uncomfortable discussions about minorities in comics if anyone really cared.

And for the record, saying that a comic book is shitty doesn't mean that I'm calling people who like them idiots. It means they like shitty comics. Some people like shitty movies, some people like shitty TV shows, some people like shitty comics. There's nothing wrong with that. People liked Avengers vs. X-Men while admitting that it was the equivalent to playing with action figures in the sandbox.

It doesn't advance the conversation at all to just throw that stuff around -- again, we can agree to disagree. But I just took the time to point out where I think that Susan Richards was clearly given a choice to make, and it was interesting.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But you don't have to come on down from the mount and act like everyone who doesn't agree with you, who finds the series to be good, is some kind of idiot -- there's clearly character development for some of these characters! The art has been good-to-great! The story isn't groundbreaking, and I've acknowledged that, but it's interesting nonetheless and well within established continuity AND provides alternate timeline storytelling!

I'm not an idiot -- just because the 'Rama and CBR do and don't like something means absolutely nothing to me. What, did Bryan Hitch, Brandon Peterson and Carlos Pacheco forget how to freaking draw?

I thought it was interesting that in the early stages of the event, Sue Storm wasn't involved in the murder of Hank Pym at all. They figured Wolverine should have a murder buddy and it needed to be someone that fans wouldn't expect to go along with murder. That ties into one of the fundamental problems of this and most event comics Marvel puts on. Shock first, explanation later. I guess if you can see Sue Storm not bothering to try another course of action other than murder because she has kids solid characterization, then great for you. I don't.

And, frankly, just because you don't like the examples being bandied about doesn't mean they aren't valid. Amazons Attack was a poorly thought out event that was delayed by a year and then haphazardly released, with a handful of mediocre tie-ins and was quickly forgotten about by everyone at the company as DC was much more interested in selling fans their next event. Both had okay art, shitty dialogue and laughably bad characterization/story points. Oh, and Amazons Attack smacked of misogyny, while Age of Ultron killed off its minority characters via a flight of stairs and off-panel in a hut, so they both could launch some uncomfortable discussions about minorities in comics if anyone really cared.

And for the record, saying that a comic book is shitty doesn't mean that I'm calling people who like them idiots. It means they like shitty comics. Some people like shitty movies, some people like shitty TV shows, some people like shitty comics. There's nothing wrong with that. People liked Avengers vs. X-Men while admitting that it was the equivalent to playing with action figures in the sandbox.

Rain Partier

habitual wrote:The one thing this has going for it is that it's not Loeb's Nova, that's truly awful.

Hab

meh, I've read much worse. you should try some of Nicieza's old 90s Nova. speaking as a fan of Fabe and of Rich Rider, I'll still tell you that book was objectively much worse than Loeb's current storyline.

Rain Partier

habitual wrote:The one thing this has going for it is that it's not Loeb's Nova, that's truly awful.

Hab

meh, I've read much worse. you should try some of Nicieza's old 90s Nova. speaking as a fan of Fabe and of Rich Rider, I'll still tell you that book was objectively much worse than Loeb's current storyline.

cheese

BlueStreak wrote:I thought it was interesting that in the early stages of the event, Sue Storm wasn't involved in the murder of Hank Pym at all. They figured Wolverine should have a murder buddy and it needed to be someone that fans wouldn't expect to go along with murder. That ties into one of the fundamental problems of this and most event comics Marvel puts on. Shock first, explanation later. I guess if you can see Sue Storm not bothering to try another course of action other than murder because she has kids solid characterization, then great for you. I don't.

And, frankly, just because you don't like the examples being bandied about doesn't mean they aren't valid. Amazons Attack was a poorly thought out event that was delayed by a year and then haphazardly released, with a handful of mediocre tie-ins and was quickly forgotten about by everyone at the company as DC was much more interested in selling fans their next event. Both had okay art, shitty dialogue and laughably bad characterization/story points. Oh, and Amazons Attack smacked of misogyny, while Age of Ultron killed off its minority characters via a flight of stairs and off-panel in a hut, so they both could launch some uncomfortable discussions about minorities in comics if anyone really cared.

And for the record, saying that a comic book is shitty doesn't mean that I'm calling people who like them idiots. It means they like shitty comics. Some people like shitty movies, some people like shitty TV shows, some people like shitty comics. There's nothing wrong with that. People liked Avengers vs. X-Men while admitting that it was the equivalent to playing with action figures in the sandbox.

Figuring that Wolverine should have a murder buddy isn't that simple, and I'm stunned that anyone read it that way. She was clearly conflicted -- she knew what Wolverine was going to do, as did everyone, and Bendis wrote the character to say it.

I think that reducing that interaction is simply attempting to minimize what Bendis did there -- I clearly see that as a character who went with Wolverine knowing what he was likely going to try to do, was truly conflicted about it but couldn't figure out another way around it, because at the end of the day, EVERYBODY WAS DEAD.

Having her go was a great choice, because it shows how everyone is a hero...until they're not. She could've stopped Wolverine, but she didn't. She made a choice to allow Hank Pym to die, because she felt that his death then was better than her life "now."

That's fodder for great storytelling. Again, we can agree to disagree, but it's not as simple as Sue Richards being reduced to "a murder buddy."

cheese

BlueStreak wrote:I thought it was interesting that in the early stages of the event, Sue Storm wasn't involved in the murder of Hank Pym at all. They figured Wolverine should have a murder buddy and it needed to be someone that fans wouldn't expect to go along with murder. That ties into one of the fundamental problems of this and most event comics Marvel puts on. Shock first, explanation later. I guess if you can see Sue Storm not bothering to try another course of action other than murder because she has kids solid characterization, then great for you. I don't.

And, frankly, just because you don't like the examples being bandied about doesn't mean they aren't valid. Amazons Attack was a poorly thought out event that was delayed by a year and then haphazardly released, with a handful of mediocre tie-ins and was quickly forgotten about by everyone at the company as DC was much more interested in selling fans their next event. Both had okay art, shitty dialogue and laughably bad characterization/story points. Oh, and Amazons Attack smacked of misogyny, while Age of Ultron killed off its minority characters via a flight of stairs and off-panel in a hut, so they both could launch some uncomfortable discussions about minorities in comics if anyone really cared.

And for the record, saying that a comic book is shitty doesn't mean that I'm calling people who like them idiots. It means they like shitty comics. Some people like shitty movies, some people like shitty TV shows, some people like shitty comics. There's nothing wrong with that. People liked Avengers vs. X-Men while admitting that it was the equivalent to playing with action figures in the sandbox.

Figuring that Wolverine should have a murder buddy isn't that simple, and I'm stunned that anyone read it that way. She was clearly conflicted -- she knew what Wolverine was going to do, as did everyone, and Bendis wrote the character to say it.

I think that reducing that interaction is simply attempting to minimize what Bendis did there -- I clearly see that as a character who went with Wolverine knowing what he was likely going to try to do, was truly conflicted about it but couldn't figure out another way around it, because at the end of the day, EVERYBODY WAS DEAD.

Having her go was a great choice, because it shows how everyone is a hero...until they're not. She could've stopped Wolverine, but she didn't. She made a choice to allow Hank Pym to die, because she felt that his death then was better than her life "now."

That's fodder for great storytelling. Again, we can agree to disagree, but it's not as simple as Sue Richards being reduced to "a murder buddy."

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

cheese

You do realize that in quoting that, you prove my point that Marvel has done the same kinds of publicity and engagement for this series that you said they weren't as a sign of non-support, and that Bendis is right for saying, "It shouldn't be as simple as Wolverine sanctioning someone. There should be more to it than that, because we already know Wolverine would kill Hank Pym if he thought it was OK."

That's the whole concept of writing, isn't it? Taking what we already know would happen and adding layers to it to provide context and conflict and growth?

It's great that Susan Richards made a freaking choice, instead of letting Reed or Tony Stark or Captain America tell her what to do and that everything will be just fine if she does what's she's told, on their mark!

That's what would've been shitty writing, if Susan Richards had lost everything she had and still trusted everybody else to tell her everything would be OK!

You do realize that in quoting that, you prove my point that Marvel has done the same kinds of publicity and engagement for this series that you said they weren't as a sign of non-support, and that Bendis is right for saying, "It shouldn't be as simple as Wolverine sanctioning someone. There should be more to it than that, because we already know Wolverine would kill Hank Pym if he thought it was OK."

That's the whole concept of writing, isn't it? Taking what we already know would happen and adding layers to it to provide context and conflict and growth?

It's great that Susan Richards made a freaking choice, instead of letting Reed or Tony Stark or Captain America tell her what to do and that everything will be just fine if she does what's she's told, on their mark!

That's what would've been shitty writing, if Susan Richards had lost everything she had and still trusted everybody else to tell her everything would be OK!

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity