I've never seen a Tokorev (sp?) carbine, but I understand the 7.62x25 was a rifle round before the advent of the cz52.

gunny1022

September 6, 2007, 08:25 AM

Could they be for the ppsh sub machine gun? If so, would they be safe in the CZ52 pistol?

max popenker

September 6, 2007, 08:47 AM

i believe this was the ammo loaded for Czechoslovak SA 24 / 26 submachine guns (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg46-e.htm); those had a little magazine clip-loadind device built into the right side of forend.

guy sajer

September 6, 2007, 08:50 AM

I don't have the answer , just an observation . Possibly the Coms loaded 2 power levels . 1 for handgun and 1 for machinegun . I'm not sure ? ...

The military 7.62x25 packaging I've observed comes 2 ways . Ammo on 8rd clips in various size boxes AND 70 rd boxed loose . Again , just an assumption but I assumed that anything loaded on 8rd strippers was for handgun capacity magazines . The 70 rd box most likely for the high capacity drum magazine of the machinegun . In a pinch , I'm sure they loaded whatever ammo they had on hand .

WHat you have is the Czech Steel core SMG ammo.
Thanks for clarifying . Is there somewhere online we can refer to when checking cartridge head stamps ?

Onmilo

September 6, 2007, 06:12 PM

max popenker got it right.
The ammunition is surplus submachinegun ammo and it is loaded quite a bit hotter than the standard 7.62X25, about 1650fps out of a handgun and 1800fps from the subgun.
The clips slide in a bracket on the side of the M26 subgun and the shooter places the magazine against the cartridges and pushes down, loading the cartridges into the magazine.
The stuff is supposed to be safe to shoot in a CZ-52 but it is NOT safe to fire in a Tokarev.
I wouldn't advise using this ammo in the CZ-52 either, it will wear parts,,,,quickly.

jonnyc

September 6, 2007, 06:52 PM

If anyone cares to do a bit of research, they will find that a TT Tokarev is stronger, and can handle heavier loads than a CZ52. A number of shooters have carried-out destructive tests on CZs and TTs, side-by-side, and TTs happily digest loads that KB CZs.
In addition, Tokarev ammo loaded in 16, 40, 50, or 70 round packages is meant for both pistols and SMGs, there is no such thing as Tokarev SMG ammo. Some of the Czech surplus is loaded hotter to benefit the SMG Max mentioned, but it should be perfectly safe in a TT or even a CZ.

Onmilo

September 6, 2007, 07:09 PM

Would be, could be, or should be doesn't cut it if you crack a frame.
Don't shoot this stuff in a handgun.

mordechaianiliewicz

September 6, 2007, 07:22 PM

I don't know, but I'd like some

Ash

September 6, 2007, 07:29 PM

Nah, I have some of it and it has a lot of hang fires and duds. I got so tired of shooting it I put it away and forgot about it. Has silver bullets. Not real fun to shoot.

Ash

Apple a Day

September 6, 2007, 07:44 PM

I had the same experience with it as Ash. I had a lot of hard primers and hang-fires with that stuff. The hang-fires really made me nervous. I still have a stripper or two laying around even though I've gotten rid of the CZ-52.

Moonclip

September 11, 2007, 05:25 AM

A local chain used to sell this ammo w/o warning toi it's power level. Comes on neat 8rd stripper clips for the above mentioned smg. I shot quite a bit thru a CZ52 before I learned it night be prudent to limit this. Is it for sure steel cored? It usually does have that neat nickel plated bullet.

max popenker

September 11, 2007, 09:48 AM

Not sure about steel core, but in Czechoslovak service back then this same ammo tended to produce cracks in Cz-52 pistol frames in about 3,000 to 5,000 rounds.

mnw42

September 12, 2007, 08:56 PM

The 7.62x25 is a descendant of the 7.63x25 Mauser. The Broomhandel Mausers were very popular before the TT was developed and the power of the cartridge is what lead the Russians to develop their own "proprietary" cartridge. C96 Mausers had a fixed box magazine that was fed from strippers. The two rounds are semi-interchangeable and it is conceivable that this packaging was intended for old broomhandels and export.

atblis

September 12, 2007, 09:47 PM

Not sure about steel core, but in Czechoslovak service back then this same ammo tended to produce cracks in Cz-52 pistol frames in about 3,000 to 5,000 rounds.

The CZ52 is a surprisingly crappy pistol for the all the hype it gets. The varying metallurgy is rather worrisome. CZ52 frames seem to crack/crumble anyways. Still works though! Tempted to use welding mits and a face shield while shooting.

Moonclip

September 13, 2007, 01:39 AM

I seriously doubt this ammo was intended for Broomhandle Mausers. The ammo is on 8rd stripper clips, 4 fill a 32 round smg mag. Mausers have 10rd capacities generally. I would seriously not fire this ammo in a Mauser pistol.

mnw42

September 13, 2007, 10:09 PM

I wasn't suggesting that one should; simply that it the only top stuffer that I can think of and an over simplified history leading to a possible explination.

tinygnat219

September 16, 2007, 09:28 PM

atblis,

The CZ52 is a surprisingly crappy pistol for the all the hype it gets. The varying metallurgy is rather worrisome. CZ52 frames seem to crack/crumble anyways. Still works though! Tempted to use welding mits and a face shield while shooting.

What's your source? Seriously, I am interested since I own both a CZ-52 and 2 TT-33s.

R.W.Dale

September 16, 2007, 10:22 PM

The CZ52 is a surprisingly crappy pistol for the all the hype it gets.

I've owned both a Norinco Tokarev and a CZ52 it's been my experience that the above comment doesn't go far enough describing the CZ52 The Tokarev is a far superior firearm in all respects

atblis

September 16, 2007, 10:47 PM

My source is owning and shooting them (and the internet). It's funny to have to take it apart to shake out the broken chunks of metal, so that it'll function again. I haven't had one blow up in my face yet, but let's just say I don't shoot 52s much anymore.

I didn't say that the metallurgy was universally bad, just that it varied. Do you feel lucky?

They are really truly a crappy pistol. Horrible ergonomics, bad sights, questionable metallurgy, bad trigger, decocker that is dangerous, eats firing pins like candy, crappy magazines. On top of all that, probably one of the weakest pistols out there. I know you guys love Clark and all, but he is right about the thin spot in the barrel.

Still a good deal when they were $89. Not worth too much more than that IMO.

I really can't think of a crappier modern era military issue pistol.

Back to the original post. My personal opinion is that there was not different ammo for subguns and pistols. That would be very unRussian. The accounts of CZ52s blowing up has only to do with their crappiness.

max popenker

September 17, 2007, 04:53 AM

My personal opinion is that there was not different ammo for subguns and pistols. That would be very unRussian
well, you sort of right - however, there was some 7,62x25 ammo which was primary intended for SMG's - such as tracers.
The problem with Czechoslovak surplus ammo is that it was designed for SMG's, and was way too hot for pistols.

atblis

September 17, 2007, 09:47 AM

What is the headstamp on the Czech ammo in question? The rumour used to be that the Bulgarian ammo was the SMG only. Never heard anything about Czech ammo before.

What I can't figure out is that I never saw a notable velocity difference between supposed SMG ammo and regular. I know it is possible to have more pressure without an increase in velocity. But usually, SMG ammo is a little faster.

IIRC S&B commercial ammo was about as fast as it got. The Bulgarian might have been a hair faster. Other than that, everything else I every chronographed was slower.

It is all SMG ammo (except the 30 Luger stuff).

R.W.Dale

September 17, 2007, 10:30 AM

This topic of "sub gun" ammo has come up before on The Czech weapons forum on Gunboards. It's been determined that this ammo is indeed NOT subgun only ammo. But rather really crappy ammo that was manufactured with no concept of QC. The Bulgarian ammo isn't a "special" hotter load but rather the stuff is just crap don't shoot it in ANYTHING

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bad.htm

I don't agree with this guy's paragraph though

This ammunition will destroy weaker designs such as the TT-33 or the C-96. Fortunately, the incidents reported to date only involve use with the stronger CZ-52 pistols and no serious injuries have resulted from its use.

The Broomhandle and TT-33 are much stronger than people give them credit for. The CZ on the other hand people make the mistake of just ASSUMING their stronger based solely on the fact that their different. Would you want to shoot crap ammo in your TT or C96, NO but one funky overloaded round won't cause the catastrophic failures they do with the CZ. My Czech-O-Matic was peening itself to death on a steady diet of commercial S&B

atblis

September 17, 2007, 10:32 AM

That article is funny.

The CZ52 fails catastrophically, and he goes on to talk about how strong it is. The darn thing split in half! Look at where the barrel failed.

R.W.Dale

September 17, 2007, 10:40 AM

That article is funny.

The CZ52 fails catastrophically, and he goes on to talk about how strong it is. The darn thing split in half! Look at where the barrel failed.

that's my thinking as well

Never No More

September 17, 2007, 01:59 PM

That ammo is NOT safe ot fire in a CZ-52, you will break it (and you).

Both the MG and carbine ammo are too hot for the pistol.

Ive trown out over 1500 rounds so far that I bought because its the worng stuff.

BTW I love the CZ-52, a good firing long distance powerful handgun.

R.W.Dale

September 17, 2007, 02:30 PM

Both the MG and carbine ammo

What machine gun and carbine?

PP

September 18, 2007, 12:24 PM

Hi Guys,

I am from Slovakia a former Czechoslovakia part before we split in 1993. It is crucial for you to know the origin of the ammo. The original Soviet Union ammo SHOULD be safe to fire from any type of weapon. I would be more carefull about the czech origin ammo (labeled S&B etc.) because they are about 20% more powerfull than those from Russia.

7,62 Tokarev is interesting round wich should be able to penetrate body armors I,II,IIA at close distance.

Many here (me included), consider the TT33 to be stronger. The CZ52 would fail a SAAMI proof test, where as the TT33 would not.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=22071&highlight=CZ52

The 30 Mauser and the 7.62x25mm Tokarev are the same [or so close to the same dimentionally, that the difference is lost in the tolerances] except for the pressures.

Tokarev ammo from Russia is at 30 Mauser pressures, but Tokarev ammo from Poland, Bulgaria, Rumainia, China, Austria, and the Czecks is 42kcup.

The problem is the bottom of the chamber in the CZ52 fails long before the roller locking system does. It is ~ .045" thick. This was the thinnest chamber I have measured until Kel-Tec came out the the P3AT .380. But the Kel-Tec is heat treated to RC42, 4140.

What ever they made CZ52 barrels out of, it should not have been so thin on the bottom, and it splits and crumbles.

What does it all mean?
Don't use the 1680 fps 110 gr data from Ted Curtis in 2000.
Don't shoot surplus Tokarev ammo in a CZ52.
Don't shoot new imported 7.2x25mm ammo in a CZ52.
Load books say the CZ52 is strong. Call them and ask them where they got that information. I have. They say they read it somewhere. They are wrong. Let's hope for some real corrections on the subject in the next generation of load books.

Levan9X19

September 18, 2007, 12:41 PM

saw several times time 7.62 ammo in special short clips. perfectly normal I guess..

Nicky Santoro

September 18, 2007, 12:54 PM

Gunny102,
I bought a bunch of 7.62 when I bought the CZ52 about 15 years ago. It was 8 rounds on strippers. Primers were hard and most took two strikes to fire. When it did fire it went off like a cannon. Definitely a hot load, much hotter than any commercial S&B or FNM I've fired.
Research at the time indicated it was Yugo subgun ammo, FWIW. I still have a fired case. Headstamp reads "52" "wierd symbol" "1" "star" "7".
HTH

atblis

September 18, 2007, 01:26 PM

Hard primers are usually a good indication of ammo intended for Sub guns.

Carl N. Brown

September 18, 2007, 01:28 PM

My experience with the 7.62x25 in 8 round strippers has been:
- The ammo is not very accurate but it did fire and function
- The stripper clips do NOT fit my C96 broomhandle Mauser
- I shot the ammo in a CZvz52 pistol (I only shoot my handloads in my C96)
- I was told by the vendor it was Czech submachinegun ammo
- I fired it and S&B at the same time and noticed little difference in recoil.
- I did shoot up the entire bag but I would not seek out this ammo.
- The clips are handy for carrying spare rounds for my '52