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We all know that Avon has trust issues, and the relationship between him and Jenna has been the subject of other threads in the past, but there’s a question that I would like to throw out there. This is not about Avon’s lack of trust towards others in general, but that point where that non-specific feeling becomes a specific determination that he does not trust a particular individual.

Early on, during Cygnus Alpha, Avon offers Jenna the opportunity to leave Blake and abscond with the ship and the contents of its store rooms; this indicates a level of trust on some level, as does any kind of partnership, even if it’s not the same as trusting someone with your own life or possessions.

By the time of Bounty, Avon is ready to believe that Jenna has betrayed them to Tarvin; this is a clear and active not trusting of someone he was prepared to go into partnership with only a few episodes before.

Was the moment in Cygnus Alpha where Jenna says no to him a watershed moment where she goes from trustable though she has to prove herself to plain untrustworthy unless there is no choice?

It’s like the moment that imo this happens to Gan, when Avon says “there’s someone else who is willing to let somebody else do his thinking for him” or something similar and it’s like Avon has just crossed him off a list.

What are anyone else’s thoughts on this?

Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Keep in mind that Blake, Cally, Gan, and Vila were also ready to believe that Jenna had sold them out in Bounty.

Avon seems to have a rapport with Jenna (if not shared trust) in Star One, and possibly even in Trial. She warns him of Blake's single mindedness in Star One, and in Trial she walks off the flight deck, essentially abstaining from the vote of whether or not to leave Blake.

The fact that ALL of the crew is willing to believe Jenna sold them out in Bounty is telling. She clearly has loyalties (Voice From The Past, where she stays with Blake), but something in her interactions with the crew lead them to believe that IF it's a matter of life or death, and IF there are no cards left to play, then Jenna will put her own survival ahead of the others.

Avon seems to have a rapport with Jenna (if not shared trust) in Star One, and possibly even in Trial. She warns him of Blake's single mindedness in Star One, and in Trial she walks off the flight deck, essentially abstaining from the vote of whether or not to leave Blake...

Is that more about how Jenna feels rather than how Avon feels?

Keep in mind that Blake, Cally, Gan, and Vila were also ready to believe that Jenna had sold them out in Bounty.

The fact that ALL of the crew is willing to believe Jenna sold them out in Bounty is telling...

True, but I was thinking about this specifically from an Avon character viewpoint; when does Avon stop trusting her, and does he have a mental 'one strike and you're out' list of people he associates with? Agreed that others may not trust her, but other characters' feelings and motivations would not imo directly dictate what Avon thinks. His trusting someone would not be based upon whether, for example, Vila trusts someone.
Edited by Spaceship Dispatcher on 21 December 2015 19:22:57

Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

I think from Avon's point of view people are either with him or against him. Once Jenna sides with Blake and becomes his right hand girl, the Avon knows that his life is more at risk because her natural caution will be over ridden by her attraction. but I also think that as the series progresses, Avon realises how dangerous Blake is and how poor at decision making and so he regards anyone who supports him as an idiot whose judgement is suspect. As to Jenna and Tarvin - I think that probably Avon would expect anyone to go with the safest option as he would do especially as Jenna may have concluded that she is not putting Blake in immediate danger as he's off ship but still be angry about it. or he may not really believe that Jenna has betrayed them but wants to put her in a bad light with Blake to make them distrust each other

I suppose I should say that I don't think Avon ever really trusted Jenna, but he had a respect for her along the lines of 'if we found ourselves in similar situations, we would seek similar courses of action.'

I don't think he trusted her in CA. I think he needed a pilot, and she was the only one available.

For my money, Avon only ever trusted two people in his entire life: Blake and Anna, and look how that turned out.

I don't think he trusted her in CA. I think he needed a pilot, and she was the only one available...

Yes, and that raises the complication of trusting her in one way (as a pilot) and not another (as a person)

Which is not to say he mistrusted her as a person, rather, she fell into the general category in which Avon put all of humanity sans Blake and Anna: Unknown trustworthiness, do not trust unless there is no other alternative. It's not that Avon was really that cynical, it's a well calculated survival strategy.

You make a good distinction: He could easily trust her piloting skills. Trusting her would take time. A lot of time.

Did he ever trust Jenna? I assume he thought that it would be in both their interests to abscond with the treasure room contents and that she wouldn't betray him at first because they needed each other to successfully abscond. More of a business transaction. The treasure room contained enough for both of them to achieve their wildest dreams so betrayal was unlikely unless their lives were threatened. He expected her to act in a way that furthered her material interests at Cygnus Alpha but was disappointed because of her attraction to Blake. But several episodes later Blake has shown no sexual interest in her so it would seem reasonable to Avon that Jenna would cut her losses and ally with a former lover to gain a share of the 13 million bounty money. In fact her relationship with Tarvin is a parallel to the one he was offering on Cygnus Alpha - a mutual business venture with probably a bit of uncomplicated sex on the side- for as long as it suited. With an acceptance that if either of their lives came under threat, all bets were off and it was Everyman and woman for themselves!

I tend to view the 'Avon has trust issues' as another piece of fanon thats not actually based in canon . In the place he is when we meet him blind trust would be stupid and he must behave as if most people will do him harm because frankly most of them will. Hardly counts as having trust issues.

Avon assesses people then decides if to tust them, under what circumstances and how far. In other words he is quite rational about it. He's actually quite clear sighted and good at summing people up and his judgment of whether to trust or not is based on what he thinks a person like this will do in this circumstance and is it what he wants them to/need them do do. Jenna is much the same

He trusts Jenna to be ... well Jenna. In some circumstances he will always trust her and in others he will never trust her. He would trust her to watch his back provided doing so didnt expose Blake's.

I think Avon trusted Blake (to begin with, up until Gan's death in "Pressure Point" ) - in Season 2, he seems to gravitate towards Vila, although it could be more of a case of mutual gain/partnership rather than any genuine desire to open up to somebody. As for Jenna... I don't think Avon doubted her potential, but I have a feeling that he knew - or suspected - that her infatuation with Blake would override her common sense, which is why he is wary of relying on her (trust me, I'm pretty much an Avon in real life until I learn to trust somebody, so I know how everyone's favourite breakout character feels... and thinks).

I never really thought Avon trusted Jenna. I don't think he lost trust in Bounty-he expected her to seek them out because that's what he would have done. Did he really trust Blake and Anna? I mean. He only seems to trust in the Blake ideal once Blake is gone. Which leads him to Terminal & Blake. He doesn't seem to trust Blake much while he's there. Maybe it's an ego-Blake says in Star One he always trusted Avon so Avon feels he has to fulfill that ideal of himself. And Anna-we don't really know. Avon believes he got Anna killed so he may be idealizing her and their relationship in retrospect.

i think Avon doesn't so much 'trust' people, or 'mistrust' them, so much as he expects them to behave in a certain way... and makes his judgements of them accordingly.

I've been rewatching the series again for only the second time all the way through, and Avon is perfectly willing to be relatively passive.... only becoming active when people either do something unexpected or out of character, or when they side with Blake on some crazy suicide mission.

I've never really picked up on how he might feel about Jenna though. I don't think this is necessarily a judgement on his part, just that from his POV there's nothing for him to either object to or agree with... unlike, say, Vila, against whom he can constantly guage his own opinions...

i'm.....not sure. As I rewatch, i think Avon ina way is like Travis. Travis is capable of expressing concern over fellow officers... until the point where someone asks him "does it matter?" (i.e does it bear on the mission at hand)... and it's only then, when he reflects and says "No" that his 'cold determiantion' (re)asserts itself.

Avon I think does genuinely have a degree of what might be called trust (or, perhaps, 'expectation not to get in his way' would be a better term?) to many, if not all, the crew... at certain times!

Avon I think does genuinely have a degree of what might be called trust (or, perhaps, 'expectation not to get in his way' would be a better term?) to many, if not all, the crew... at certain times!

That is almost exactly what I was gonna type!

I think Avon tries really hard to be a psychopath - in the universe he operates in it would be a lot easier to be one! I think he isn't one though - he ends up trusting people, probably catches himself doing it and he because has a precedent of Bad Things happening when he ends up trusting people, he either rationalizes it away ('we need a pilot and Jenna is useful') or otherwise finds a way to remind himself that trusting people is "bad".

Avon has trust issues, generally; I never thought that Jenna was a particular problem with him. His problems are compounded by the fact that he has been betrayed by people he really did trust. The Anna Grant incident must have pre-disposed him to think the worst of Blake in the last episode, I am sure.

Avon has so much difficulty trusting people that I can't but think there must have been some massive trauma back in his childhood—perhaps abandonment by a parent (probably his mother, given his ambivalent attitude towards women).

The point about him expecting people to behave in a certain way is a good one—I think his interactions with Vila in particular prove this suggestion.