OK, I guess you want Adam Miller in the rotation over Sowers right now? Come on, that's ridiculous. Jeremy will be fine. Aside from two bad starts, he has four quality starts and given his team a chance to win every one of them. The bullpen's blown two wins for him already. I'm not worried yet.

Skating Tripods wrote:OK, I guess you want Adam Miller in the rotation over Sowers right now? Come on, that's ridiculous. Jeremy will be fine. Aside from two bad starts, he has four quality starts and given his team a chance to win every one of them. The bullpen's blown two wins for him already. I'm not worried yet.

I think the original point was which of Sowers or Carmona would be sent down when Westbrook returns from the DL. Miller's not part of the equation yet.

And I found the original point to be intriguing, thought-provoking, and brilliantly analytical, since I made the same suggestion earlier.

Everyone is just going nuts because he isn't the Sowers from last year. Once again, 4 quality starts in 6 outings. He's giving his team a chance to win sans the Yankee disaster and his last start against BAL.

Skating Tripods wrote:Everyone is just going nuts because he isn't the Sowers from last year. Once again, 4 quality starts in 6 outings. He's giving his team a chance to win sans the Yankee disaster and his last start against BAL.

It's a valid point. I was going to rail on how lousy he'd been in his last B-List until I looked at this starts, and 4 are quite good (albeit sometimes weird, like the first, with 1 H and 5 BB).

But the problem I have with Sowers is more fundamental: he IS the Sowers from last year. He doesn't strike anyone out. He doesn't have ground-ball stuff like Carmona. And he is basically Dave Fleming. A finesse lefty like that can get a few good turns through the league, but unless he adds something to his repertoire, he's just ... not ... that ... good.

Shoot, I'm not advocating dumping a major-league-quality starter just because I'm nervous. That makes no sense. But the fact is, if you are going to add Westbrook back on the roster after the DL stint, one of Carmona or Sowers will go down. Right now, because of his repeatable ground-ball stuff and better performance, I pick Carmona as the one to stay. (Since we don't have to make this decision now, we shouldn't make this decision now, but we also shouldn't be afraid to make this decision if nothing changes.)

This is the second post today that you're showing some disgust with the team.. we're 20-11 man

Don't give up on Sowers just yet. He is a great pitcher. He has showed some control problems at the start but he can't just be sent down the minors, it would be pretty devastating to someone who has already established that he needs to be in the rotation.

dmcdougal wrote:Don't give up on Sowers just yet. He is a great pitcher. He has showed some control problems at the start but he can't just be sent down the minors, it would be pretty devastating to someone who has already established that he needs to be in the rotation.

I realize this is addressed to Nimno, but I'll chime in:

1) I'm not giving up on Sowers, I am evaluating him as giving us a lower opportunity to win than Carmona. I would be interested in seeing a supportable refutation of this assertion.

2) If Sowers would be "devastated" by being sent down, he is not mentally tough enough to pitch in the majors. Don't like it? Pitch better. (By all accounts, Sowers' makeup is one of his truly extraordinary characteristics: I don't believe this would be an issue.)

Really, I don't think anyone who's thinking carefully would call for Sowers to be released because "he sucks." He doesn't. Four of his starts have been quite good. However, it's hard for me to see a rational argument that Sowers has performed better than Carmona this season. And, more to the point, I believe I could make a better argument that the likelihood of future success in 2007 is greater for Carmona than it is for Sowers. Which is, after all, pretty much the point.

He's definitely not playing like he did last season, but I still strongly disagree with a trip to the minors. Let him work it out at this level. Besides, he can still get a few starts before Westbrook comes back, so he has plenty of time to work it out. Regardless, I believe a trade is in the works. We have 6 quality, major league-ready pitchers on this team and a few more back at AAA. I love how Paul Byrd is pitching but I'm sure other teams do as well.

He's definitely not playing like he did last season, but I still strongly disagree with a trip to the minors. Let him work it out at this level. Besides, he can still get a few starts before Westbrook comes back, so he has plenty of time to work it out. Regardless, I believe a trade is in the works. We have 6 quality, major league-ready pitchers on this team and a few more back at AAA. I love how Paul Byrd is pitching but I'm sure other teams do as well.

The question is, if we have CC, Byrd, Lee, Jake, Carmona and Sowers still here, and each is pitching the way they are currently, who do you send down.

I agree with Buff, 100%. If he can't handle the demotion, he can't handle Game 4 of the World Series.

There are only 2 ways to work it out at this level when everyone is healthy. 6 man rotation or send down Carmona. Which are you suggesting?

dmcdougal wrote:This is the second post today that you're showing some disgust with the team.. we're 20-11 man

Don't give up on Sowers just yet. He is a great pitcher. He has showed some control problems at the start but he can't just be sent down the minors, it would be pretty devastating to someone who has already established that he needs to be in the rotation.

this is not a bashing thread

its a thread where i am stating the obvious and citiquing the current roster and analyzing how we can make it better and get more wins.

if i were managing, Carmona goes no where unless he falls apart

the only reason carmona is not a shoe in starting is becasue he has no name for himself and is unproven.

i think hes proven enough for the short term future, HE HAS TO START AND STAY PUT

im not saying put sowers in the minors or keep him up. Im just saying carmona not staying here is CRAZY

I don't understand why people are flying off the handle here. Why is this even an issue at this point in time? Westbrook's out for another month. That gives Sowers a few starts to get it together. If he does, somebody wants Paul Byrd. If he doesn't, then he is the only starter with options and he goes to Buffalo.

This really is not something to think about at this point in time, in my opinion. No one here has their head in the sand about Sowers, Pup, we all know he hasn't been all that good. I'm pointing out that he is still giving the team a chance to win.

Does anyone realize that what we are getting from Sowers is what we have gotten consistently from Cliff Lee the last three seasons? Without the run support Lee got in '05, he doesn't win 18 games. Cliff Lee is good for a number of 3/4 ER 7 IP starts. No one has jumped on him about that. He threw that CG the other night, well Sowers threw two back to back last season. It happens as a pitcher, especially a young lefty that doesn't overpower.

I'm not expecting Sowers to be the second coming of Tom Glavine, I'm just figuring that he will be a good #3 starter. He changes speeds, changes eye levels, and he is a solid pitcher when his control is on. Of our starters, he is of the most importance to get strike one. And thus far, he hasn't done that yet.

I refuse to panic on the starting pitching question until Westbrook is a week or two away. Sowers is still giving us a chance to win in 67% of his starts to this point. I'm fine with that from my #3/4 starter.

The title of the thread is somewhat misleading if you indeed are just saying that Carmona needs to stay...

Anyway, I agree with Tripods here. I am not ready to panic or take Sowers out of the rotation. We have 4 starters performing well and we're a month and a half into the season, we can wait for Sowers to pick it up.

There are only 2 ways to work it out at this level when everyone is healthy. 6 man rotation or send down Carmona. Which are you suggesting?

I don't know what I'm suggesting. I wouldn't even say that I am suggesting anything except that people need to calm down and give it some time. Westbrook's oblique won't let him start for another couple of weeks so Sowers and Carmona will each have time to work. If I were Shapiro or Wedge, which I'm not, I would wait until I absolutely have to make a decision. If Westbrook came back RIGHT now, I would make a six man rotation until something else happened. However, things are guaranteed to change before Westbrook comes back

I meant it more along the lines of looking ahead. Sowers has not been all that bad, as mentioned earlier, but Carmona has been better. This is not a bashing Sowers type of thing, but really the only options are Sowers and Carmona since barring a trade CC, Jake, Lee and Byrd are not going anywhere.

One of the reasons for the forums is to look ahead and see what others think.

I cannot imagine a 6 man rotation is going to happen, but they probably said the same thing about 5 man rotation at one point.

Westbrook is still 3-4 weeks from returning, of which Sowers and Carmona will likely get 4-6 more starts. Clearly, the Indians need to decide which one of Carmona/Sowers to send down when the time comes to activate Westbrook. Obviously, today, that decision will call for Sowers to go down. But, a lot can change over the course of the next month. Let's just sit back and see what happens, then revisit this when the time comes that Westbrook is about to be activated.

Drennan is talking Sowers to Buffalo and getting Adam Miller a taste until Westy comes back. I don't think it is happening, only because it leads to the predicament of having the discipline to send him back down.

And if service time is the reason, than we can begin the DIACF threads once again.

If the reason is he is not ready or they want to limit his innings for one more reason, at least those are baseball decisions and I can understand them.

Consigliere wrote:Westbrook is still 3-4 weeks from returning, of which Sowers and Carmona will likely get 4-6 more starts. Clearly, the Indians need to decide which one of Carmona/Sowers to send down when the time comes to activate Westbrook. Obviously, today, that decision will call for Sowers to go down. But, a lot can change over the course of the next month. Let's just sit back and see what happens, then revisit this when the time comes that Westbrook is about to be activated.

I agree 100%, personally I want to see how Sowers responds to this. I'm willing to be patient with him becaus of his age and potential. If we should be worried about anything it's a .200 hitter being moved into the 2 hole in our everyday lineup.

Pup wrote:Drennan is talking Sowers to Buffalo and getting Adam Miller a taste until Westy comes back. I don't think it is happening, only because it leads to the predicament of having the discipline to send him back down.

And if service time is the reason, than we can begin the DIACF threads once again.

If the reason is he is not ready or they want to limit his innings for one more reason, at least those are baseball decisions and I can understand them.

His upside potential is so much higher. Remember we were in a similar situation with CC six years ago. Manuel demanded him in his rotation despite the fact CC was 21 and most felt he needed more seasoning. CC responded with 180 IP, a 17-5 record, and 170 K's.

Can you picture this rotation with an effective Adam Miller in it?

I think you need to see what you have in Miller here. What if Byrd can yield us The Missing Piece at the deadline? What if Jake isn't ready in a month?

I just think the timing is perfect for this now. The team is off to a good start. Jake is shelved, and Jeremy could use a month down on the farm to work on some things.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

I disagree, he brings nothing of any kind of knowledge to myself that I cant figure out on my own. If you or I were to have been caught doing what he did, you can bet your rear-end we wouldnt be back as soon as he was let alone having a show with his title. To me he's an arrogant big headed blob that pours manure out threw his gums. But I understand people like him, thats fine. He's just not for me. Maybe when Bond's retires STO can land him a show called "Needle in a haystack".

The one thing I always liked about Drennan is that if he didn't know something he never tried to act like he did (roda). I can understand why people don't like him, and in regards to FUDU's point about his knowledge, you at least have to meet him halfway - baseball knowledge from the 60' on who locally can you rank above the guy. Look at WKNR, Roda, Bishop and Rizzo are a joke as far as baseball is concerned, and as much as Brinda would like you to believe he's knowledgeable, he just isn't, especially in regard to the current game.

I'm not so sure I'm pimping Drennan as much as saying something about the local media. Christ.

This is not the perfect time to call up Adam Miller. While I believe he could come in and pitch well now, I don't think you basically throw Sowers under the bus to get him up here. Has Sowers been inconsistent to start the year? yeah.

But, he has had a couple nice outings. He hasn't been Jason Johnson-esque where just about every outing is awful. If that were the case, I'd be at the ticket window buying Sowers his fare to get back to Beefalo.

You give Sowers another 4-5 more starts, or at least until June. Reassess things at that time. If Westbrook is not ready, then maybe you call on Miller. I'm as geeked as the next person to get Miller up here, but gotta be patient here. We are, though, close to seeing Miller as another injury or extended poor pitching from Sowers and Miller is here.

Dozen wrote:I disagree, he brings nothing of any kind of knowledge to myself that I cant figure out on my own. If you or I were to have been caught doing what he did, you can bet your rear-end we wouldnt be back as soon as he was let alone having a show with his title. To me he's an arrogant big headed blob that pours manure out threw his gums. But I understand people like him, thats fine. He's just not for me. Maybe when Bond's retires STO can land him a show called "Needle in a haystack".

Miller is not coming up with CC, Byrd, Lee, Sowers, Carmona, and Westbrook coming back soon.

This is one where you just have to pick-a flip-of-the-coin thing. Sowers was very good last year, and has been hit or miss this season. Carmona has surprised me a little bit and is becoming our midseason ace. I'm not going to make any statements until Westbrook comes back and Sowers gets some more time.

I think it is about time for Sowers to have a mystery "injury" and go to Buffalo to Rehab.
That will give us a chance to plug in Miller after his finger is better and see what he can do.
Sowers is a smart kid but can't figure out what is going wrong while trying to get out major league hitters.
A short "rehab" stint in AAA will help him a lot.

tribefan333 wrote:Miller is not coming up with CC, Byrd, Lee, Sowers, Carmona, and Westbrook coming back soon.

This is one where you just have to pick-a flip-of-the-coin thing. Sowers was very good last year, and has been hit or miss this season. Carmona has surprised me a little bit and is becoming our midseason ace. I'm not going to make any statements until Westbrook comes back and Sowers gets some more time.

It's not even close to a flip of the coin. If it's between Sowers and Carmona then Sowers goes down. Sowers has been horrible outside of his first two starts this year. He's been all "miss" since the third week of April.

Sowers needs time at Buffalo. It's time to call Miller up until Westbrook returns. Let Sowers work things out at AAA before he loses us some more games up here.

As it stands we have little chance to win games that Jeremy Sowers starts. So what if he was good last year, baseball is about who's good now.

I would be very surprised to see Sowers go down to get Miller up here for just 3-4 starts tops. I'm not sure the Indians are very high on starting the option and service time clock on Miller right now unless they absolutely have to. With Westbrook scheduled to come back soon, I don't think they feel the need yet. If Westbrook was out for a few more months, then yes, Sowers maybe gets one more start than then it would be Miller Time if Sowers struggled again.

Sowers is throwing too many first pitch strikes, and when men are on base is starting to aim his pitches. The stuff is adequate for the majors, he has to relax and go back to pitching.

I think the umps may be pinching the plate a little bit on him concerning outside strikes to lefties. The big sweeping pitch ends up out of the zone when it hits the catchers glove, but is generally in the strike zone at that point in the sweep.

Overall, I suspect he will be a fine major league starter, and good for at least 12-15 wins per year.