Originally posted by FSU_Paintball Perhaps I am out of line here... but if I were on the waiting list for an X-mag for over 9 months, and I heard that you were just going to not make any more... I would be inclined to say that AGD is giving the customer "the shaft." I would go so far as to say that unless SP had threatened to sue unless you IMMEDIATELY stopped making the X-mag, I would say that you were being ignorant of your customers' needs, and doing a great disservice to the excellent reputation of your company.

Most of all, if I had been waiting for an X-mag for 9 months and heard that I would not be getting one simply because you don't want to make them any more, I would be very, very pissed.

Am I out of line?

Unfortunately, It's a crappy Situation. One that has had Tom all 'iffy' about X-Mags to begin with. The bodies are made and the design is owned by AGD Europe, which is a sepereate corporate entity. A Seprate entity that no longer is going to make the bodies. It will be likely too expensive, and likely more trouble than it's worth to buy the design, Part it out, etc etc.

Now, I am about to open up the can of worms; Isn't AGDE Where they get the 4.5k Reg seats from? :) What's gonna happen with those?

02-28-2004, 12:59 AM

cockermongol

Am I the only person here that thinks it is STUPID that AGDE even EXISTS! From my chair I think they are doing much more harm than good.

02-28-2004, 01:07 AM

11_Mile_TMaster

And, for that matter, some of my thoughts:

250 E-Mags sounds like it's actually no number to sneeze at. Anyone with a recent E-Mag care to give a Serial number, so we have an idea how many exist?

The reason I bring that point up, is that AGD Likely wants to try to be rid of whatever inventory they have if the courts side with SP. Not selling 20 e-mags to customers because you never had the parts is a lot better than having 20 e-mags sitting in your shop because you can't sell the parts.It's not making a profit versus taking a large loss. These arent it'sy bitsy parts. We're talking about (when we get down into the nitty gritty,) A 400-500$ or so difference between an e-mag and RT Pro that are configured similarly. I say the difference because of the fact that, yes, some parts are interchangeable. Namely Mainbodys/Valves, and to a lesser extent, the Rails.

But, in our example, Let's say that AGD orders another run of, say 100 e-mags, and those 20 people get them. SP wins their case, and AGD as a result has to stop selling E-Mags. that still leaves 80 E-mag grip frames, 80 Batteries, 80 Battery Grips, 80 batteries, 80 Circuit boards, 80 solenoids, you get the idea. 20*500= 40,000$. I don't care if you're A college student, a working man, or the owner of a small-to-mid size business, 40,000$ is a lot of money to ---- away because you're not allowed to sell something. That's the salary of a pretty good engineer for a year, give or take.

It's simple economics. AGD Doesn't have the backing that, say, Empire does to risk large productions of markers like that.

Quote:

Originally posted by cockermongol Am I the only person here that thinks it is STUPID that AGDE even EXISTS! From my chair I think they are doing much more harm than good.

AGDE Is a franchise business. Crap happens with franchise businesses. They do things very Differently sometimes. Oftentimes to the point where you'll hit yourself in the head and ask, "What the heck are these people smoking?"

02-28-2004, 01:17 AM

Rope a Dope

Yes don't boycott Smart Parts because if something doesn't work automatically overnight then it is not worth it to keep trying until you reach your goal.

You're all acting like a bunch of French soldiers, just drop your mag and put your hands in the air and surrender to Smart Parts.

The Automags.org logo should have more yellow in it.

You limp wrists can go ahead and bend over and take it with no DOW 33, I'll at least put up a fight such as educating uninformed players about what SP is doing and encouraging others to not support SP as well as severing all deals at the paintball shop I work at with SP (which has already happened and strictly because of their BS lawsuit).

Hope your Shocker 03's work out of the box.

02-28-2004, 01:30 AM

WARPED1

ICD signed the agreement in the middle of last year, and since, prices on BK0's have dropped.................
boy, those SP lawsuits sure hurt!

02-28-2004, 01:49 AM

cockermongol

Quote:

Originally posted by WARPED1 ICD signed the agreement in the middle of last year, and since, prices on BK0's have dropped.................
boy, those SP lawsuits sure hurt!

ICD, by keeping the prices the same, is most definately losing money to stay competitive. Less profits = less money for R&D = less innovation (the kind of innovation we'll need to beat SP).

02-28-2004, 02:57 AM

DiRTyBuNNy

Quote:

Originally posted by wimag

Werent you once the self proclaimed keeper or stalker of the kitty X-mag?
Anxiety getting to you lately or are you always a dick?

I'm not the stalked of anything...you all like to have your little cliques and your own little in jokes...I have my own..

Quote:

Originally posted by gtrsi

DB you need a brutal *** beating! Not only do you have zero idea of what you are talking about consider for a moment your hateful tone on this board. If I was a mod here I would have bounced you eons ago.....

AGD will be in this biz as long as IT wants. BTW who is taking side bets? Morons on other message boards that post more than they play?

I am sorry but in any game the pawn never makes the smartest move, those are reserved for the king and queen.

When you begin to relize purpose you may then understand the meaning.......

I've been playing paintball since you were still peeing your pants so don't tell me you're the paintball equivalent of Peabody and Mr. Sherman all rolled into one.

As for who is taking sidebets...let's just say it's not a bunch of walk-on's shooting Spyders...just because I have conversations with people at other companies means I have to tell YOU the content of the talk..

And your little forture cookie sayings may work on high school girls but most people over the age of 18 don't need to watch Kung Fu to learn to say something cool to amaze everybody.

AGD was going to die eventually. No smart business men is going to support the failing portion of his business with the successful part. You change or you die. Pure and simple. You can not believe it all you want but when you're searching eBay one day because you can't find parts for your mag anymore because AGD's long gone just like Line SI, Paintball Inc and AirStar.

02-28-2004, 03:37 AM

Steelrat

Quote:

Well...it's time for me to have one of my world famous "I'm leaving" again sales...after lots of thought I've decided to take 6 months off of paintball...just got too much going on in my life and there are too many things I want to do with my life that I just don't have time for paintball

Good news! You don't have to care anymore! Go take your well deserved break, there will be plenty of time to revel in AGD's demise later.

02-28-2004, 05:20 AM

John Sosta, AGD Europe

Guys,
I am posting this due to the barage of phone calls, and e-mails that we have received, as a result of this thread.
Let me say very clearly that we, that's AGDE have not said that we will not, or do not want to make anymore X-Mag bodies. If AGD wanted to continue to place orders, then would be happy to fulfill them. From the beginning of this project, we offered to allow AGD to produce the bodies under license, there in the U.S., so that they would have more control, on supply & numbers.
We have a huge investment in the product, and have no intentions of stopping production, even if AGD discontinues the X-Mag. We have 2 CNC machines that we use to C&C the bodies in house, and we have always fulfilled AGD's orders.
We also did a lot of work on the ACE, and have only recently re-designed both the warp & centerfeed modules, and we are still looking to make further improvements.
I think that AGD has made this decision due to a number of factors, one of which is the very high exchange rate against our british pound at the moment, which is making the bodies expensive. However, I must reiterate, that we would have no objections to AGD producing them in the U.S., which would eliminate this problem.
We are just as sorry as you are that the X-Mag is being discontinued, as we have worked so hard over the last few years to get it to this stage.
We only designed & made the body in the first place to try to bring the E-mag up to the same level as the Angels etc,
and give it the C&C looks that everyone else was producing.
The modular design was included to help promote the warp, so you could connect up to the warp module without lots of ugly hose.
To dispell rumours, yes we have signed up with NPS, but this will not affect AGDE nor would it affect the production of X-Mag bodies if you guys still wanted them.
I think that Tom will agree that this decision is based on many factors, but the biggest is the current legal situation going on in paintball.

AGD edit: I agree with John here, the biggest factor driving this decision was weather or not to spend the money restocking inventory on an old product.

02-28-2004, 05:56 AM

Gadget

John, thanks for the post, hopefully that should clear up any anti-AGDE feeling on here. Plus it sounds as though we'll still be able to get the X-Mag in Europe?

Seems to me that AGD have taken the decision to move out of the E-marker business in order to avoid any litigation over the SP patents.....if they only make mech markers, no-one can sue them?

Banner

02-28-2004, 09:37 AM

wimag

Quote:

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
As for who is taking sidebets...let's just say it's not a bunch of walk-on's shooting Spyders...just because I have conversations with people at other companies means I have to tell YOU the content of the talk..

Yeah riiiiiiiiight. What makes you so special to have these intimate one on ones with other people at other companies. The receptionist and shipping person dont count either as your source.

Dude you are so full of crap. For someone who took such great pride in thread after thread of "hey my x order is in" to "hey my x is at ano" to "hey i talked to a tech and he said my gun is the third from the top in the pic and I dub thee the boner gun" You are really getting your rocks off on AGD's situation.
If; and I doubt it will happen, that AGD folds you can nyahhh, nyaahhh, nyahhh all you want. Until then shut your hole.

02-28-2004, 09:54 AM

shartley

I just read AGDE’s response, and all I can say is WOW!

Not only do THEY list many valid reasons why Tom is not continuing the X-Mag, but then dump the MAJOR reason on something that has nothing to do with all the other valid reasons for discontinuing the production and availability of the item by AGD itself.

Tom also made AGDE’s position look MUCH different than even AGDE just did. Tom made it look like AGDE was not interested in fulfilling any more orders, when now AGDE clearly states the opposite.

What I see is “Let’s see what the easiest scapegoat can be for this decision.” And then placing it on SP.

Tom could very well continue the E/X-Mag but is CHOOSING not to, and for MANY reasons, not just one. And I don’t buy that the SP issue is the most important one, just that it is the most convenient one. That puts the blame on another company, vs dealing with all the other very valid reasons within AGD / AGDE themselves. I for one am VERY familiar with this type of blame game, and have felt it personally. No matter how many reasons lead to a decision that people don’t like, let’s find the ONE reason folks can hate the most and make that the reason folks focus on.

I think the failure of this product is multi-faceted. It involves timing, expense, internal decisions, as well as industry trends and pressures (which DO include SP, but are not ONLY SP). It is also clear that if Tom wanted to (and had the ability to) he could continue to make them in the US, avoiding many of the financial reasons listed by AGDE.

But that would involve either investing in actual equipment, or finding a suitable company here in the US to do the milling for him AND entering into a likening agreement with AGDE… The SAME think folks don’t want to do concerning SP, even if it allows for the product to still be available to the public, AND allows the company (AGD) to make money. And this would all cost LESS than his stated “new product development costs” (as was pointed out by other members).

You know what? This is all a game of passing the blame. And folks will believe what they want no matter what is posted, or what is logical. As has been stated to me time and again, people will always want/need a “bad guy”. Okay…. Hate SP for this. Go ahead.

02-28-2004, 10:38 AM

Top Secret

Quote:

Originally posted by cockermongol
ICD, by keeping the prices the same, is most definately losing money to stay competitive. Less profits = less money for R&D = less innovation (the kind of innovation we'll need to beat SP).

Actually ICD has a new gun in development called the Freestyle which is due out very shortly.

02-28-2004, 10:55 AM

shartley

Quote:

Originally posted by Top Secret

Actually ICD has a new gun in development called the Freestyle which is due out very shortly.

I will also expand on that…

The price of leasing equipment or space take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

Taxes take away from R&D funding. And those prices often get raised.

The price of utilities takes away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

The price of material costs take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

The price of other various licensing fees (dealing with business, not products in general) must be paid which takes away from R&D funding. And these often get raised.

The price to process business orders and payments (witch includes computer systems and software, internet costs, merchant’s accounts, banking fees, and much more) take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

I could go on listing the things that take away from R&D funds, but I think we get the point. Any fees paid to SP or any other company in themselves is not the reason products can, or can not, be developed. There are a vast number of other expenses that take away FAR more funds than any one licensing fee.

In fact, I have seen MANY businesses fail because of any number of the above listed expenses over that of a product licensing fee(s). And the above listed STANDARD expenses for business tend to be the thing that keeps smaller businesses from coming out with new products more than the addition of a product licensing fee.

If the fee caused a company to fail, they had some other serious issues before that point. Kind of like the straw that broke the camels back… you CAN blame that one straw, but you would be ignoring all the other straws that came before it. And chances are, by reducing the size of those other straws, OR removing some of them all together, the addition of that “final straw” could very well have caused virtually no affect to the camel…. Thus his back would be fine. ;)

02-28-2004, 11:06 AM

manike

Quote:

Originally posted by cockermongol Am I the only person here that thinks it is STUPID that AGDE even EXISTS! From my chair I think they are doing much more harm than good.

Yes, you are, and you don't know what you are talking about. Such an ignorant statement makes me very angry.

The amount that AGDE has done for the mag and AGD is insane, and much of their work goes by unsung or attributed to other parties.

So many products in the AGD range wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for John Sosta, Jackie Sosta and John Bonich.

02-28-2004, 11:14 AM

thei3ug

I hate to add levity to the situation, but ahhh, didn't sosta start marketing the 8-hole mod for the non-aligned mags, that spurned a whole market of garbage knockoffs?

;)

I like AGDE. They's pimp.

02-28-2004, 11:17 AM

manike

Back in the day when the holes didn't align through the reg halves doing that mod DID make a difference because you had a better chance of getting the holes to align with one of the 8.

Once AGD changed their manufacturing and made the holes align that mod did nothing but other people kept offering the mod...

02-28-2004, 11:18 AM

Gadget

Yes he did - John + Marcus from the Predators designed the original 'Pro-Mag' 8 hole mod. Have still got my mag from 1993 (Promag 727) right here :)

Despite all subsequent evidence to the contrary my 'mag still seemed to work a lot better after getting that mod done :)

AGD was going to die eventually. No smart business men is going to support the failing portion of his business with the successful part. You change or you die. Pure and simple. You can not believe it all you want but when you're searching eBay one day because you can't find parts for your mag anymore because AGD's long gone just like Line SI, Paintball Inc and AirStar.

I agree, it's just taking them longer because they do come out with good stuff every now and then...........

02-28-2004, 12:16 PM

thei3ug

Quote:

Originally posted by manike Back in the day when the holes didn't align through the reg halves doing that mod DID make a difference because you had a better chance of getting the holes to align with one of the 8.

Once AGD changed their manufacturing and made the holes align that mod did nothing but other people kept offering the mod...

What's with all the highrise powerfeeds you brits seemed to love through the 90's, eh? yah, yah, we've all heard the sight down the top excuse before. Many many many times.

Besides, are you saying that the limited span of the promag mod to a small number of mags (I remember that, BTW), outweighed the social drawbacks of sucker reg bodies being sold by Diamond labs in "rub the anno off titanium?" Too often in this sport we don't look at things in the long term... ok I'm just talking out of my rear now.

02-28-2004, 12:23 PM

WARPED1

Quote:

Originally posted by John Sosta, AGD Europe However, I must reiterate, that we would have no objections to AGD producing them in the U.S., which would eliminate this problem.

This should have been done on day 1 of the birth of the Xmag(AGD finding a place here to do it):rolleyes: ...........

Quote:

Originally posted by John Sosta, AGD Europe
[BTo dispell rumours, yes we have signed up with NPS, but this will not affect AGDE nor would it affect the production of X-Mag bodies if you guys still wanted them.
I think that Tom will agree that this decision is based on many factors, but the biggest is the current legal situation going on in paintball.[/b]

NPS has already signed with SP and can make electro markers, does this mean you can still make Xmags?

02-28-2004, 12:26 PM

gibby

Quote:

Originally posted by WARPED1 This should have been done on day 1 of the birth of the Xmag(AGD finding a place here to do it):rolleyes: ...........

Yup! But little do you know...it's being done already! Nicad is always hard at work in his dark, dank, basement...KARTA!!!

02-28-2004, 12:40 PM

Beemer

Brothers

I think DB and Warped must be brothers they both seem to know everything about nothing. But really you know less then you think you do and are smaller then a grain of sand in the beach of life

02-28-2004, 12:56 PM

WARPED1

Re: Brothers

Quote:

Originally posted by Beemer I think DB and Warped must be brothers they both seem to know everything about nothing. But really you know less then you think you do and are smaller then a grain of sand in the beach of life

I guess my 14 years in paintball and my long pb work resume mean nothing? In fact, I have an interview with a big name company on monday(I'm not allowed to say who with, yet........) Not just stores, but industry jobs too, I won't argue with closed minded idiots, so have fun talking to yourself.
And gibby, those Karta bodies are hot! Maybe AGDUSA should just "buy" the design and have those made for thier XC's! That would be nice.

02-28-2004, 01:17 PM

Beemer

Re: Re: Brothers

Quote:

Originally posted by WARPED1 I guess my 14 years in paintball and my long pb work resume mean nothing? In fact, I have an interview with a big name company on monday(I'm not allowed to say who with, yet........) Not just stores, but industry jobs too, I won't argue with closed minded idiots, so have fun talking to yourself.

Ha Ha I just made a statement on how I see things. At least I can say I have NEVER resorted to name calling and if I ever do I dont think I would waste it on you

Your post is a good example of your maturity level.

In fact of all the posts of yours I have read I have yet to see any that contribute in a positive way.

The price of leasing equipment or space take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

Taxes take away from R&D funding. And those prices often get raised.

The price of utilities takes away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

The price of material costs take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

The price of other various licensing fees (dealing with business, not products in general) must be paid which takes away from R&D funding. And these often get raised.

Sounds like you need that book by Lesko. 10000 ways to save on money from the govt, or whatever it is. The guy wearing the question mark jacket like the riddler. Then paintball will be free for TK.

02-28-2004, 01:36 PM

shartley

Quote:

Originally posted by jtoothman25 Sounds like you need that book by Lesko. 10000 ways to save on money from the govt, or whatever it is. The guy wearing the question mark jacket like the riddler. Then paintball will be free for TK.

LOL I don’t need that, and honestly HE needs everyone to “need” that book.

How do I know?

I OWN IT. :D

I went to the book store and looked it over real quick and didn’t see anything that would benefit me, but I purchased it anyways. I then took it home and read it from cover to cover.

He is correct, the money IS there. But to actually QUALIFY for the money you have to not only jump through flaming hoops of fire, but have to fit within certain categories, social status, actual LOCATION, and many other criteria that make it darn near impossible to qualify for anything at all.

Yes, Lesco has the answers. But they really only help HIM… because you buy his book.

But don’t get me wrong. When I listed those expenses, I was not “complaining”, only pointing out that business is not free. And there are standard costs for doing business (if you do it legally) that you can’t avoid and are actually more impact on most businesses than the one addition of “product licensing fees”. And if THAT is what sinks your boat, you didn’t have much of a boat to begin with.