General Question

Any legal way out of this international abduction case (in Schengen area)?

Some of you may know about this already, some don’t. The short version is that my daughter was kidnapped last Christmas. She ended up with some people, including her mother, who are holding her hostage for a variety of reasons. The mother does NOT have custody, but nobody seems to care.

The update yesterday is that, after months of delay, the judge did not want to make a decision, and allowed my daughter to stay (illegally) with the mother. He did not award her custody, he just didn’t arrest her.

The real problem for those of you thinking “come on, you’re making a big deal out of this, your kid is with her mum, so loosen up” is this: not only does the mother’s side admit to molesting my child, but they claimed yesterday that, as a result of kidnapping her, she has developed a phobia towards them, and that they “need” to take her to see a psychiatrist, which she has been doing regularly for the past 4 months. This was a happy child that laughed the whole time. Now even they are admitting that she’s depressed, but won’t give her back.

I do not want your sympathy, even though I appreciate how much I got here on fluther all these months. I do not even expect people to agree with me, or look at the moral perspective of this.

But since various laws have been clearly broken and it seems that the new trial (due next month) will be postponed again, and I cannot see realistically regaining full custody for at least another couple of years, are there any other ways of solving this legally?

yes, the idea was that I did my best to avoid it all these months, apart from a single article in a newspaper.

Remember that I used to be a singer too, so they’ll make a day out of it. I didn’t want that to happen. But right now I’m trying to weigh the long-term harm done by the media against the short-term harm done by leaving her in that situation. I was hoping to get a swift resolution and be working on the healing process by now. Unfortunately it could take years, and I don’t know if she can handle it. Either way, I don’t want any damage that will be irrepairable.

get a new lawyer, and contact the media with your story. There are several “consumer advocates” at TV stations that claim to help. Also consider asking the court to provide a lawyer to protect the best interest of the child as well, her own lawyer, in other words. Your path will cost a lot of money, so if you don’t have enough, you will probably be disappointed in the end.

In California, there is a thing called family court, which works in the interest of all the people involved.

The court doesn’t give a shit about the child’s interests. That’s the whole point. Two of my lawyers are in fact meant to be representing my daughter. Her rights are clearly violated, or, to put it differently, she has no rights as far as they’re concerned.

California is in the USA. Unfortunately, the court is in Greece (where the child was born). There’s another similar process in Poland (from where she was abducted) and a different case altogether in Germany (related to some criminal activity they engaged in). None of the 3 is very hopeful. The only thing I’ve heard works is the International Human Rights Tribunal, but their site has no resources on how you go about filing a complaint to start with, and I know of no lawyers in Strasburg (or the Hague or wherever it is). That’s what I was wondering about.

btw this is NOT a custody case. A custody case is when two people divorce and one of them wants to take care of the child. When a group of known criminals systematically abuses a baby hiding behind the fact that one of them happens to be a mother (without custody), then it’s something else.

I don’t know the laws of Greece although I did see one media expose about an adult male who lured a young teenage American girl to Greece where he sexually used her, mentally and physically abused her, and distributed pornographic pictures of her. In that case for the longest time the Greek authorities did nothing to help return the girl to her family.

However, when my brother’s daughter-in-law kidnapped his infant niece to Massachusetts (she did not have custody), the Texas attorney general flexed some muscle, got Massachusetts to agree, and authorized my brother to “kidnap” her back. Her family is also a well-known criminal family, tied in to the Whitey Bolger “mob family.” Is there any hope of whatever country you call home in terms of citizenship stepping in to make this a diplomatic issue?

In the USA the various “states” are actually little republics that agree to work together under a federal umbrella, so in essence cases that cross state lines are rather like things happening across country borders.

Any chance of kidnapping her back?!
I know it out on the left field for most people of conscience… rule of law is slow, and a childs’ wellbeing is at stake! It will probably be cheaper then lawyers as well.
What does the State Dept. have to say about it?
I have two little girls who are the center of my UNIVERSE, I cannot even being to imagine what you must be going through… you and your Daughter will be in my thoughts and prayers.

After I had posted my answer above, I, too, began to wonder if it might be possible to hire someone to “kidnap” her back. There are, or there used to be, folks called “deprogrammers” who specialized in “rescuing” (ie. kidnapping) folks’ children from various cults. Possibly, armed with all the court documents stating that you have custody, they might be able to get her back for you in a quasi-legal manner.

@Darwin Taking her back by force should not be all that hard. My lawyers insist this would just make things worse, but I’m starting to think it’s the only way out. At least she’d be safe until the mess was sorted. I am an Australian citizen, but due to a recent change in Australian law, the embassy doesn’t want anything to do with it. They’d help me out, but not her.

The only person who seems to give a damn is the Polish Consul (my daughter is not even a polish citizen and neither am I). She apparently has some strings she can pull to at least get the child protection agency interested. So far, they treat this as a “family feud” and refuse to interfere, which for me would make a huge difference.

@ninjacolin Peace in the Middle East is a lot more likely. In fact, most Israelis and Palestinians could conceivably be left in the same room for 24 hours and at least one of them would come out alive. Me and the woman who has molested my child for the past 4 years and tried to kill me….no, I don’t think there’s much room for making up. Even our lawyers can’t make up. She had her first lawyer (quite a civilised woman whom we at least could talk to) beaten up. Her second lawyer was “her style” and tried to hit my second lawyer. She and her family also attacked my other lawyer in court. That’s the sort of people we’re talking about.

My daughter first learnt the word “suicide” when she was 2. She told me she did not want her life anymore if she had to spend another minute with these people. She was the happiest child in the world when she was with me, and never once cried. Now she needs psychiatric help as a result of their behaviour towards her. And that’s THEIR side of the story. Mine is even grimmer.

wow. Well, don’t pay too much attention to me since i admittedly have no “normal” advice to offer. Either ignore this outright or if you have nothing better to do read on and try to see where this leads..

Firstly, you failed to answer my question. I understand fully that you believe this to be an impossible thing to achieve. My question however was hypothetical. It was meant to get you to envision what things would be like if you were considered a trusted and good friend to the mother instead of what you are considered now.

What would things be like for your daughter if both of her parents were not fighting. What would it look and feel like for your daughter?

About the mother of your child

In short: She is a victim of her own ineptness at how to create the kinds of memories she would prefer to have rather than the ones she’s created so far. She needs help, not enemies.

She didn’t try to kill you because she thought it would be best for you. she tried to kill you because she thought it would be best for her. She doesn’t abuse your child for the child’s benefit she does it while seeking her own pleasure AND while failing to realize how it harms her. She’s short sighted. Proof: She doesn’t want to be in court with you. She doesn’t realize how her actions are creating more problems for herself.

Her life is miserable and she doesn’t know how to make it better. She’s inept. In the end she’s going to consider the child a bother and she’s going to hate herself for everything. She probably won’t even realize how she brought it on herself. She’ll probably blame “life” for being a miserable thing in itself.

She won’t know it.. but she’s right. Her life is what is miserable and her life is all she knows. “Life” as she knows it really is miserable. And she would prefer it not to be so. But as I said… she is inept.

You have at least a month and a half before the courts can help you. so what’s your game plan for that waiting period?

Get to work!

My suggestion is that you stop blaming the mother for being a horrible person. Instead, accept that she is inept and that she doesn’t even know how to make her own life more pleasant. Find ways to teach her how to enjoy life more. If you can help the mother, you will help the child.

Just as she hasn’t chosen to have the history that brought her to this point, you can contribute to the history she’s going to experience over the next month and half (or more).. you can help to make her next month and a half the best month she’s ever lived through. And you can even make her blame you for it in the end.. but the trick is to make it seem like you aren’t to blame until like 5 years from now when all this has blown over.

Your quickest and best bet to help your daughter is to actively engage in helping her mother to become a better person.

i didn’t say that he should give her any reason to get mad at him. i really only mean that he should become something useful to her. something she can appreciate. but yea, with lawyers and what not i assumed she must have money to work with. but i mean, what if he won outright? couldn’t these well funded “bad guys” just come after him anyway?

the other problem i was thinking of is if he has some sort of restraining order on him.

@ninjacolin I’m listening. I’ve read your post carefully. And I must have heard hundreds of people who don’t know this case giving me this advice over the last 6 years. Most of them now advise me to get a gun.

My lawyer persuaded me to cut a deal the first time, something which at the time seemed the most reasonable solution for him (rather than putting my ex in jail). I do not regret doing that, but he does. And my daughter has suffered as a result. His hope at the time was that things would get better between us. Instead, they have escalated.

So back to the “being a friend” suggestion. Yes, I’ve tried that. Even recently. She won’t listen. She’s part of a group of people who are bent on destruction. She takes any offer of help as a sign of weakness, twists my words and uses them against me.

What would things be like for my daughter if her parents were not fighting? The problem with answering that is that we’re fighting because of my daughter. So, in order for that to happen there has to be one of two possibilities:
1) my ex behaves like she should (or at least tries to) and respects our child. A blissful universe. And of course I’d have no reason to fight.
2) my ex keeps behaving as she does, and I stop fighting. My daughter will be dead before the year is over. What it would look and feel like for my daughter? Hell. It is already hell now.

I agree 100% with your “inept” theory. I’ve said so myself. I even tried to make her see how she could have a better life and we could work together on that. Even after we divorced, I tried to be her friend. But things have moved way beyond the point you’re describing.

People often imagine that I have some sort of communication with my ex (albeit bad). I don’t. I’ll send her a message like “would you like to arrange a meeting and talk about the future of our child?” and I’ll get a call from her lawyer or the cops 5 mins later saying she accused me of sending her a death threat. When I say “read the message” it will be something like “she deleted it, but she said you just sent her a message saying you’ll kill her”. This is how close we are to communicating. I can’t even talk to her lawyer. Heck, my lawyer can’t even talk to her lawyer.

So in theory yes, I agree with your suggestion. It’s just not realistic. If the mother was alone and not affected by the people around her, perhaps there could be some sort of balance between us (and in fact we wouldn’t even have divorced if that was the case). But she’s not, and her actions are dictated by a series of other people whose agenda does not involve my daughter’s welfare.

And of course my question was how do I get these child molesters behind bars, not how do I become friends with them.

re: your last post. No, there’s no restraining order on me. There’s a restraining order on her brother, and a similar order (not restraining, it’s called “prosecutor’s order”) for her to bring the child to me (my daughter’s permanent address is the same as my own). She just ignores them. The law simply does not work. In theory, she should be arrested (according to the law).

And no, they’re not particularly rich. They’re more of a bunch of brawlers than an organised mob. They do engage in illegal activity, but not the type that Darwin describes (yeah ok, the brother does hash sometimes, but he’s not a full-time drugdealer). I have more money than they do (though they have taken a significant portion of it already).

wow again.. that was a very patient recap of the situation. thanks, jack.

sigh.. gangs are such a problem. they protect each other from growth. they’re essentially in a cult. if there is any chance at that sort of solution as above i guess you’ll want to speak with people who know something about dealing with cult members.

no, no such thing. Even the child protection agency here refuse to interfere, saying it’s an “internal family issue”. Which makes me wonder what’s their whole point of existance, since all children are in some sort of family, and by the time they’re out of it, they’re old enough to protect themselves.

Let me see if I’ve got this straight, the police won’t help, your lawyer doesn’t properly represent you, the child protection agency won’t enforce the legal child custody order you have—something is very fishy. Where are the grandparents in all this, or aunts and uncles?

… have the child taken (kidnapped BY PROFESSIONALS), and the two of you need to rebuild your life anew someplace where you cannot be tracked to! You’ll have to break almost all your old ties, and if not you must be explicit with them as to what is at stake! You and your daughter’s life!
Arrange it all ahead of time very, VERY, QUIETLY!!!
The last step is that your daughter arrives (quietly) where you plan to live, after the first night at her new home she is to see her new therapist the next morning!!!
You have no other recourse!
ALL who’s job it was to protect this child, her mother, extended family, the law, government, they have all FAILED OR ABDICATED their responsibilty! You are her last hope, IT IS YOUR DUTY TO PROTECT HER, that’s WHY the courts gave YOU the custody!

@YARNLADY my lawyers are the best there are. If you see what my lawyer wrote, compare it to what hers wrote, and put it next to the relevant article of the Law, you should immediately order the arrest of the 6 people involved. The judge admits so in private, but won’t issue the order. The prosecutor too. It’s not that the court didn’t believe me, it’s that they’re too scared (or incompetent) to act upon it.

@ninjacolin The child does not only admit being molested, she’s screaming out day and night. Everyone knows this, people come to me with all sorts of stories. A lot of this happens in public. The neighbours are shocked. Still nobody does anything about it.

It’s interesting about the video, I asked a question here a few weeks ago saying “should I put the evidence online?”. I did. For 24 hours. And then took it down again. I feel weird even discussing it here on fluther (and I’m only doing so because I’m not using my real name). I do not think that I’d be doing my daughter a service in the long run if I exposed her like that. Though the damage done right now may be even greater than that so yes, I’m contemplating it as a last resort.

Incidentally, I’ve been approached by several major media institutions (including international ones) and refused to say anything. Perhaps it’s time to talk.

I am simply sickened by this situation. Being a victim of childhood sexual abuse myself, my heart breaks for you and your daughter, and I wish for you to get her back as soon as possible.

I don’t have any specific legal advice, and no connections to any of the countries involved. However, isn’t there a higher court you could appeal to or possibly sue the judge and prosecutor for miscarriage of justice? The people who come to you and tell you things—would they band together against the courts, or are they too afraid to be vocal, too?

How about any international children’s organizations? Are there any that are geared toward abuses? Seriously, if it will help your little angel, use whatever celebrity you have to your benefit… go public.

Rape, Abuse & Incest National Networkrainn.org
(I know it’s a national organization, but it is high profile and highly respected, and founded by Tori Amos – maybe you have professional connections that you haven’t thought to utilize?)

1. I was with my lawyers just now (we’re working 24/7 on this, even though it’s Good Friday here). Yes, the judges involved will be in trouble, but it could take forever. I filed a lawsuit against my ex last month. It will be tried in 4 years. And probably will be postponed again. She will not realistically face any form of punishment for at least 6 years, maybe more. My daughter will be 10 by then. And of course the system is corrupt enough to protect the judges and prosecutors (whom I will also be sueing once this is over).

2. I am trying to reach the psychiatrist involved, so I can at least help my daughter behind the scenes (tell them what to tell her to make her feel better, what she likes, etc). I’m meeting a different psychiatrist tomorrow hoping to get a psychological profile for both myself and my ex. Again, they’ll probably just say we’re both sane and nothing will happen.

3. I am meeting various people from different agencies all next week, and trying to find some more witnesses. A lot of people are at least willing to testify, so that’s a start. The problem remains that all of this will not amount to much anyway. I’ve already proven everything in court. The question is who cares?

4. I have the media resources to cause immense damage to whoever doesn’t do their job right if I want to. Unfortunately, if that does not give me full custody of my child and the right to move to a faraway land with her and never come back, such media attention will only harm her in the long run. Growing up in a small society where everyone knows her and her story just makes things worse. People are already pointing at her in the street saying “that’s the girl from TV”.

Thank you very much for those links. I will look into them individually (I already knew a couple).

Kill them.
No joke here. No punchline. Just kill them.
Honestly, what’s the difference?
Like it or not your daughter’s already fucked up. She’s probably going to die if her life doesn’t improve. What do you have if you don’t have her?
The only thing stopping you is you.
Go get your daughter.
Kill them all.

Thanks, I’ve certainly given that a lot of thought. But the question is about the legal way out.

Unfortunately killing them would only mean I go to jail. Sure, the jury may be understanding, and maybe give me 20 years and not life. Point is, my daughter will end up in an orphanage, and I’m hoping that a legal way out would mean she grows up with me and not some stranger. Even that would be better than growing up with her mum, but I’m trying to avoid it for now.

I didn’t say “kill them then wait there for the cops to show up.” Apparently the legal system is fucked anyway and, if I’m not mistaken, you’re willing to do anything for your daughter. So… kill them and leave. It seems as though you have options: Greece, Australia, the US, etc.and you did say you have some money therefor, again, the only thing stopping you is you.

I’m sure the money you’re basically wasting on lawyer and court fees could be put to better use.

Option 2: Just use the media. Your daughter may have to deal with it later (or whatever) but at least she’ll be alive by then.

I really don’t see any other options besides the two I stated, and I LOVE the 1st one. If everything you’ve stated is true then waiting for the legal system to function on it’s own is pointless, dangerous, and stupid. You’ve been left on your own in this fight so battle it out in whatever fashion gets the job done. There are no rules to war regardless of what you hear. Winning is the only option.

Correction: I am far from “waiting” for the legal system to function. I’ve been kicking the legal system into operation anyway I can. Every single day I spend the whole day collecting evidence, witnesses, talking to lawyers and anyone that will listen basically. I’m ready to face the media too if need be, but I’d rather avoid it if possible. It’s just that the whole thing is so slow that I imagine some International Human Rights court would be a shortcut.

Honestly, if you’re not going to kill anyone then I would hit up the media without question. Your story is the kind of thing the public loves to emotionally attach itself onto even if only for the fleeting couple of weeks that their attention spans allow. However it would probably be long enough to get something favorable accomplished. And don’t forget about the American media.

Tell everyone: newspapers, TV, America, the internet (if YouTube can start music careers then it can save lives.)

I’ve been discussing this whole situation with my wife and we both agreed paying a crack-head to kill ‘em all off would’ve been our recourse by now but our other, most favorable 2nd choice, was the media/public route.

I’m working on legal and political pressure anyway.
Yesterday my ex wife and her father tried to come in contact with my brother-in-law and his mother. I’m suspecting the reason was to find out about my moves rather than broker a deal, but it doesn’t matter. I don’t trust them with anything anymore. The pressure is mounting, it’s just taking ages. I’m meeting some politicians this week that could help.

She was not like that at all Darwin, just a normal fun-loving girl that looked like she’d make a good mother at the time. I knew about her sister and father, but not about her mum and the rest of the family being that bad. She just transformed. And I think people in general are capable of extremes of behaviour. Her brother is not an essentially mean person, he’s just following orders – anyone who’s fought a war will tell you that they found themselves doing things they’d never do otherwise. It’s something similar. Some of these people were monsters to start with, but others (including my ex) transformed gradually.

True. And I think the main cause of the problem is that, from their point of view, they’ve gone unpunished so far (not only with regards to my daughter, but everything else too). The law simply doesn’t work.
As far as I’m concerned, the priority of getting my child out of there is the only thing that matters. I can deal with everything else once she’s safe.

The latest update: I discovered that among other things, they accused me of molesting my daughter, as well as other children (all those kids that used to play at our house). Since these are very serious accusations, the police confiscated three computers from my house, which is particularly interesting since I only had two. Being a teacher, these accusations become even more vital, and the libel case (not only did they lie about the truth but they also planted evidence, which in itself was illegal to start with) is now very huge. This could actually sway the court now, and make people notice. The mother is no longer just a mother asking for custody (because regardless what I’ve been saying here, that’s all the judges know for now). Now she’s a bitch that downloaded illegal child porn off the internet, then planted it at her ex husband’s house, trying to destroy his career and reputation. She has constantly lied to the police and the media (and when they start looking into it they’ll discover all the things I’ve been screaming about all along), and it’s only a matter of time before they find out about the forgeries, the impersonation, and eventually even the child abuse. The attempted murder is hard to prove, but everything else is more than enough to at least award me custody within the next couple of years (and several other charges should keep them away from me after that).

Meeting more people this week, including a politician. And working on the media too. I may eventually agree to give an interview, though the offers my lawyers are presenting still do not sound like the sort of publicity I’d want (stuck in the morning news between the petrol prices story and the one about the goat with two heads). I’m thinking of a piece in a newspaper, perhaps the “Guardian” (UK). Anyway, I’ll keep you posted. Thanks again for all the support.

Again, ask anyone who has witnessed anything contact the police or at least your lawyer so they can testify. It will be better if they’ve made official police reports about what they’ve witnessed, but if they fear retaliation, your lawyer should know how to present that to the court.

Even if the events witnessed are limited but the witnesses to such events are numerous, wouldn’t that still be effective to support your case (better than nothing)? I asked above if in the case that the witnesses are afraid, doesn’t your lawyer have a way to present their testimony confidentially?

If all the witnesses are outraged enough by this and banded together, wouldn’t they intimidate the perpetrators? I know it’s a stretch, but I’m picturing a protest held outside the place where they are keeping your daughter or at least at the court house with media coverage and everything. Catch them unaware and unprepared and overwhelm them with the number of people who won’t stand for the abuse of an innocent child or the ineffective criminal justice system. If you make it about the bigger issues, you may find more people to join in the protest which will help protect any witnesses because they won’t know who is who, and obviously couldn’t go after hundreds of people.

It’s really sad that they not only do this to a child, but that they are terrorizing a whole community, in a sense. It’s very disappointing to hear that no one will stand up to them.

It’s a combination of factors. Yes, some witnesses are scared, but there are enough that aren’t.
People are not outraged (or brave) enough to band together. But some will come to court and testify if I ask them.

People here generally don’t rally, demonstrate, protest etc. There is a 99% dissent against the mayor, who has ruined the city, closed down businesses and even beaten up citizens. Everyone’s against him, nobody will vote for him next term, but even so, there has been no organised protest, just individual complaints. That’s how people are.

I spoke to the Polish Consul today, but it didn’t really get me anywhere. I did however find someone who is interested enough (and powerful enough) to help out, and he loves children, so I’m hoping he’ll intervene. I’m also trying to meet a politician that stood up for my daughter when the story went on TV. Hopefully, with elections coming up in June, she’ll want to pick up the issue once again and perhaps even discuss in in Parliament (it was discussed before Christmas, but forgotten now).