And have a guy on a couple of minutes that I saw on meet the press' Sunday Jonathan roaches is named music contributors to the Atlantic magazine. Ended this a 33 page article in order to go through a pretty quickly but. That title is how American politics went insane. And answering bursting to huddle it isn't what what he's saying is that. The biggest political problem we have is that the country abandoned the establishment not the other way around. And that now it's basically. If I understand what buddies saying is well known political scientist and author that. And we had a system network people big politics and government confused and for some reason they think they government can exist. Without politics and it can't happen in terms of committees in terms of bargaining in terms of patronage in terms of pork from. It goes and deals same one person's pork is the other person's bacon. They would use these things and hand them out and dole amount needed to to get a constituency here or they are both parties were able to do it. And now it seems what was happening is homicide mine my conversation with them asking about apolitical socio path. Which I think is really. At the heart of politics has gone haywire it makes you think that you know what maybe back in a day. It wasn't perfect but. The smoke in the the smoke filled rooms back rooms much yet. But at the lakers really if you look at the way it was then in the way it is now I don't think eruption has gone down. The government is certainly not any more effective no and it seems like everybody wants to have a police. And you can't have 32060. Many people we have in this country million voices. All being hurt it nice if you could but you can't sell an eleven Tommy Tucker back in a slash under the WL. 715 we talk about Hillary Clinton throughout the morning. And the the FB IS and there is saying there wasn't enough to prosecute that I saw this gentleman our next guest on Meet the Press on Sunday. And I wishes chomping at the bit to talk to him because he. He wrote a cover story for the Atlantic. This month and end and his gonna give you a couple of things that caught my mind in my Nyhan and lomb. And we'll talk to him one of them is that there are political socio paths now. That's not necessarily a dangerous thing or mental disorder it's justice of the way they believe. And another one is about. John Boehner who said he realized and I'm paraphrasing here that. A leader who without followers is simply a man taking a walk. And he really opened my eyes a lot of this and with that we welcome in Jonathan Rauch contributing editor at the Atlantic in National Journal and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in the morning James and Jonathan order and on while sir and thanks for coming on. Com I was fascinated by this rather read it why is out of nowhere to begin so mentally Q presented. An and chime in if I think the listeners aren't yet and that's our right. Her. The basic idea is that we've got a chaotic situation in politics and government basically because we're now doing politics and government like. Certain grade soccer remember when we all would just run out there mob the field every person for amber herself trying to get to the ball. So that's kind of what we do now politics requires its huge amount organization just the past you know a simple appropriations. Bill. You need to coordinate the work of of thousands of interest groups in millions of constituents in many politicians and to do that you've got to be able to do stuff like geez money. And closed door negotiations. Otherwise known as smoke filled versions. You've got to be able to have some sway over the nomination process so you know Tommy Tucker takes a tough vote. To raise the debt limit bill from inside the speaker of the house I can. Help protect him from the primary challenge. And one by one systematically. Over the period of the last fifty years with the best of intentions we have dismantle. Pretty much all of the mechanisms that leaders use to get polymers to follow and the result is that it is. Political campaigns which are not only disorganized but where's the Republican nominees not if Republicans. And the government where it's very hard to even do simple stuff like keep the government open. So it's a breakdown of organizations and a lot of that is our own fault. Did we want me to death. Yeah that's my thesis and in a lot of other things went on to of course you know it's not like the world. Change. Pretty much change but all the reforms the political reforms of the last 4050 years. We're supposed to make politics cleaner by getting creative you know stuff that we can smoke so programs and soft money and closed primaries. And all these ways that intermediaries. And parties and have access. Political insiders and professionals use. And we follow that step is ugly. But what we didn't realize or or lost track does is it that's the way help these people who do politics everyday for a living. These are the tools they need to their leaders can lead in followed shall follow. Com in terms. Let me let me freeze might wake is always say Jonathan it you can't. Not even take a hard vote you can even vote for something that outlaw allegedly has to be done. Because of the writers on the bill. Where before you know and in order to funding government order in order to keep feeding hungry children you gotta vote for south and that whatever reason decreases and on spending and I'll decide next election cycle. And coaches again supporting the American military. It was that like to add back in the day present. A recent development where the bills are constructed differently maybe with different writers so silly to screws everybody. Well it depends on the bill there's absolutely nothing news about manipulating the contents of bills so that you. You're guys will vote for it and the other guys will have a problem voting against it. Absolutely nothing in there. What is news it was in these difficult votes couple. It's very difficult for. Say a majority leader McConnell in the senate speaker Ryan in the house especially speak arrive. To protect his people who take these tough. It's just inherently difficult to vote for something like a debt limit extension worth keeping. The government open and omnibus spending bill for a lot of these other things forever get a get a handle on entitlement spending. We're actually gonna need to take some tough votes in one way we used to do is that you put pork in the air you know like. Hey Tommy you know I've really major vote on this how about and post officers district yeah how about that highway project. So we decided that was corrupt and so they would that they lost that tool to do it at some point if you take away. All the leaders and organizers. Ability to incentivize people to follow world. You get a crisis is not leadership but a follow worship and that's what we got right now that's what John Boehner talked about. I think abrupt break here for news and only a traffic rather when we come back when I ask you about them. Some of the other points you bring up an and one thing that I kind of took away from your essay is. Maybe people don't realize that politics and govern better or her hand in hand there it's the yen in the Yang inning gotta be together and I think some people today. Wanna take politics cutting government that is that's not how it works. Jonathan Roush or guests contributing editor at the Atlantic National Journal senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and he contributed the cover story this month which is. How American politics and went insane. And you might disagree on how it became that way but I don't think any other skin. Really disagree with the fact that it is not a controlling crazy 722 time now evidently well traffic. Seven Tony six Tommy Tucker talking to Jonathan Roush contributing editor of the Atlantic. National Journal a journal senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and he's got to cover story on the Atlantic this month of how American politics. Went insane. John I think that's only about political hopes. So. Way back in the early two thousands a couple of political scientists at University of Kansas. John hitting analyst of this type I. Works hard and looked at how Americans think politics sports and came up with a very disturbing find. Which is the 25 to 40% of Americans basically hate politics and don't think it even needs to happen. They think it's all messy and noisy and its politicians were out for themselves and it is the system work properly. There are obvious solutions out there that everyone should agree on. Somebody really Smart and empathetic we just. They just go into the room and they'd agree on these obvious solutions and that would be no more politics no strikes no more noise. I'm and it turns out these people don't really care if the people making these decisions are democratically elected or authoritarian. Or technocrat. And they love the idea you know some. Businessman. Ross Perot or Donald Trump just say hey you know elect me and I just saw. It's just done because we'll do it right. On. What turned a lot of people think that way and it's of course completely inconsistent. With help politics actually happened which isn't very complicated process of lots of compromise and negotiation as people disagree. And they think that there is no other side did but Ayers they are always. Consistently 100%. Right on this. And if you don't agree then who is wrong and if you if you don't it definitely vote for what I think should be done no matter now. China sky it may be willing you know my guy any Mormon vote you out. Yeah outlooks it is just obvious. And any reasonable person would be would agree and and that's right. So problem with that is his first of all. It makes the system when these when folks start behaving sway. In the exit system very open to anti politicians. Authoritarian. Day who made a magical promises so. I would argue mr. trump and Bernice. I'm and the second problem is once folks like back get elected they can't actually government because in order to govern you'd have to of allies. I have to oil. And to do that you have to political. These guys still in their complete lone operators. And increasingly politics is made Japanese complete lone operators these kind of lone wolves. In I was watching Mr. Smith Goes to Washington on over the weekend on and on TM CN. And again and introduces the film said that Joseph Kennedy actually tried to hand that film declared criminal and not. Not released. I guess I at first I thought because it reflected badly. Maybe on politics but then I got after I read your article John as an unthinkable maybe it's because he realized. And no Kennedy fan but he realize that. No no no that's not how it works you're giving people he completely. Misguided. Wrong view of what the processes and if you try to run it like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington it's going to be a disaster. Well mr. Smith goes to Washington and charming film obviously I can them anyway. Especially Japan to who wanted to. I suspect had never heard that story coming I suspect his reasons were your first street. And but that's said that's right accuses the deeply misleading picture pal lot. Work you know if you just don't let these people that they would just do the right thing all our problems go. This is the fact that. We disagree very deeply as Americans about what the right thing it is and we've got a bargain in compromise and to do that union leaders. We have the tools to make those deals happen. Gibbs couple more minutes. Or not. Are. Okay well you'd talked it. Jordan I don't think you can have enough that the when we get their news and so forth but the name of the article is says the essay how American politics when insane cover story. On the Atlantic and it's been a pleasure tick and I just pick your brain one more second of course. Donald Trump owns the news cycle right with Hillary Clinton and the FBI and so forth so what does he do list. Last night he praises Saddam Hussein. Saying that he. It was wildly considered. Did you get is what Saddam Hussein was a bad guy right he was a bad guy really paid guy but you know what he did Willie kill terrorist. He did at some good data and read them the right seated and taught you're terrorist it was over. Now. Jonathan and you've been in this for a long time if the presidential candidate owns the news cycle. At least for the foreseeable next 34 days about Hillary Clinton and the FBI. Why on God's green earth and I'm not campaigning for anybody here I'm just looking at the political. The way to campaign is being run why would you bring that up. You know I don't have a clue Tommy the here's what I'd like to get people to focus on about that. In American politics. Everywhere and directly elected there's absolutely nothing to stop any. Chose Dick or season. However crazy jail however weird there are however anti social or authoritarian or whatever there are. From putting themselves forward. And if they've got money or an independent base are a lot of control command over media time is Donald Trump does. You have to have mechanisms to is that candidates and and try to get people who are not political socio path. And that's what we've demolished it used to be the parties played this crucial role of looking at people saying okay Tommy Tommy Tucker's. He paid his dues he's been a loyalists he showed he's cared about the country. And about the party he can work with others. It's that it's safe pair passed. Since that gate keeping role is completely disappeared since we got rid of that we decide we don't need stuff like that we'll turn that we do the founding fathers were right. To say we need these mediating mechanisms as well as direct democracy it's not either or. And we still need parties and professionals to look at these guys and say wait him that ours is this the person we want leading the party. And the government for the next forty years since that's where we need to look for solutions restoring some of those. Those massive those those people in between who make the system more. It's in the July August issue actually of the Atlantic I can't tell you Jonathan how much of enjoy this now become back but it's. Yet a great days 733 calls we come back right now time for. WL offers news isn't that we go to David Blake 742 when he before a you know Dana I'll politics I think it's clear and and that that just deep that trenches in the way to run a campaign in the strategy involved and so forth are now. And Donald Trump owns this Hillary Clinton thing he can go off on the FBI he can go on anti establishment he can go on. In so many different ways ranked yeah I can so what does each news talk about Saddam Hussein Lance yeah I. I don't know killed terrorists. That was good in Reid and their rights didn't talk they were terrorists it was over. Today Iraq is Harvard for terrorism even be a terrorist you go to rockets like Harvard okay so set. Of course Saddam Hussein oh win also did use and yeah I'm open of this firestorm here at least began one with Ken and weapons of mass destruction sure they are war at one point weapons of mass to sky destruction. Because Saddam Hussein huge use them on his own people. The Kurds and Chemical Ali was a guy that did under Saddam Hussein's direction. And he was subsequently hanged for. The only point I'm Megan here's leg I don't hear anything about Saddam Hussein and and I understand about the stability of Iraq in the Middle East and you may case for Libya as well. But it from a strategy standpoint. If you have this handed to you in your last count. Why. Whether it's right wrong or indifferent the media's gonna jump on Saddam Hussein OK if you're running a campaign. Why would you do that. And I don't need you now I'd I don't understand. It demands are about SN 8742. Tommy Tucker BRP on WW out. Tommy Tucker I gotta tell you what I think I would Wear work between now and a presidential election. For free. That's only entertaining and that's how fun this is going to be get a text that comes in to text actually from different numbers. Yeah phone numbers you're trump supporters soon you all want to see him bash Hillary. Has cited about line a world would. He bring up Saddam HusseinPaul Ryan as a matter fact. Talk about well I get to that in the second. Bomb attacks from a different number and I was critiquing Donald Trump's campaign campaign is when I was there on time and a particulars that was that. Yeah you own this thing with Hillary Clinton this should be a news story for five days of what you do. Alameda the press on the job on about Saddam Hussein. And get the speaker of the house call in this say yeah you want the twentieth century's most evil people he was up there committed mass genocide against is own people using. Chemical weapons is ID series Saddam Hussein is dead guy. Text from a different number. That says the point he was making was the way Obama and Hillary has treated or handled the terrorists comparing them to such means as Saddam. So apparently made one statement. People get a completely differently now Jordan when they were and Andy Sheldon way to make today. And it's this you tell me policy wise. What it is that you like about Donald Trump. Or what it is that you like about Hillary Clinton. Nothing negative but pot policy wise tell me what it is that you think makes him uniquely qualified to be. President Steve Jones morning and other WL value. And Bob and iPad. You'd be quite an achievement. I understand he writes Serbia and the man. But I'm conscious he's not. Probably there's. Also answered so. He's. Not and so we went. You say why would you say that. We just haven't and resilience and was. I can command. And you know and that decisions he's as mentally. So it does dispute that forming tell me why he was wrong in mine he had a beer. Among liberal. And yeah I think there's been huge amounts to announce. Special and so I didn't. Know what I've met with the. Now nobody was saying he's not an increase spending and at all what he was arguing for is. Everybody now is pulling in different directions and politicians realize they have no copper. So will what is best for you Steve is not in the best for John what's best for Fred is not best for Nancy that's what to me this country is about that. You gotta get together and you got to negotiate because even if he even if everybody is all right in their positions. Well is America and everybody's position county you have to compromise. One man that. Has now that the compromise and I don't know his name and where you. And even talk about him. Now which guys. In an article. In your options with the. Yet because trumpet this deal wouldn't hang on hang on trump was apolitical socio path as was Bernie Sanders. And as our lots others because they don't care what other politicians think now. He also said that John McCain knows what he's doing. Because he's a chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Don't asking how does your committee come ban managed to pass bipartisan authorization bills year to year. Is a well you know. Lot NAFTA members of the committees related districts to take home. All these saying he's he's not saying hire anybody else's spend anymore all he's saying is that it is a free for all now. It is like wrestling that it is afraid. To call someone. So they'll pass. It. Apolitical. Socio path meaning only that and I've said this twice meaning only that he doesn't care as Bernie Sanders doesn't care. What other politicians think of him Ted Cruz is the same way. Ted cruises smooth by everybody Republican or Democrat. In the sand and enough house now everybody as a is is a big field and all inclusive but most people. In that on that he'll hate Ted Cruz because. He's an at all firms not visa socio path of steady in the back politically just at. Just to get a little bit of being in Hillary. Mom. Now a wait hang on hang on political socio path. I don't think she is a political socio path because she cares deeply about what other politicians think ever. And all of the good deal make in it she puts together now are you saying now Hossa deal making is bad. No that's why you have somebody yells on the other side. Putting together political deals within their party. And out of that at least this is what the gentleman is saying that's how you wind up with the better prepared in candidates that are willing to compromise. I don't think Hillary Clinton cares what other people and I think Hillary Clinton. There is power hungry and is that how she can manipulate people. You. So if we already have a discussion on there you were never discussed on this can you and I find some middle ground are you all right. No we didn't know the topic I'm usually right. So he. Don't we all Vegas Steve I'm glad you cults have a 52. There is an honest man. 752. A before any time now Devin WL traffic. I know there will be intense public debate in the wake of this recommendation as there was throughout the investigation. What I can assure the American people. Isn't this investigation was done honestly confidently and independently. Know outside influence of any kind was brought to bear. I know there are many opinions expressed by people who were not part of the investigation including people in government. But none of that mattered to us opinions are irrelevant. And they were all fully informed by insight into our investigation because we did our investigation the right way. Only facts matter. In the FBI found them here in an entirely apolitical. And professional way. I couldn't be prouder to be part of this organization. Teams only FBI FBI director yesterday talking about the I guess not having enough. Evidence. Against Hillary Clinton of wrongdoing and and in some tax here's and it Hillary should be. Should be in jail well first off I think I think there's a thing called due process in this country and let's just wanna do away with that too. I don't like you yeah you're crooked. You suck. Go to jail while going. I think you need to follow the rules lauding another text here that says. You Hillary bashers are acting like he has a degree from ITT tech. On how to manage your server your new narcissistic. Weirdos. She's not snowed no Oprah traders. And her attorneys went through the emails and so they found a prevent this mess while they they were didn't do as the FBI found. I a couple of different occasions emails that. She did not turn over and that were not classified as he said they wore. Now in terms of a degree from ITT tech they were asking her to break down a computer and fix it. But I think you do need as secretary of state witches in the line of succession when comes Meehan president did do need to have a working knowledge of security I think when yet. When he got other countries. Some hostile with no with state secrets I'm and I'm just saying and I would think Debian a minimum minimum qualification.