For you true believers, you should know that there are a set of Gnostic FSM Texts out there that are being suppressed. Basically they describe a somewhat angrier FSM who occasionally encourages his followers to pick up the cutlass and perform intellectual rape and pillage against other religious beliefs. This is not the friendly FSM we all were taught in kindergarten, but what did you expect from a divine being who is ultimately concerned with the fates of pirates?

Although these gnostic texts have been suppressed as part of a greater conspiracy to control the image of the FSM, His Noodleyness has touched a few great prophets who have provided us clear guidance on how to respond to other religious institutions, their thoughts, beliefs, practices, and actions.

I encourage you all to study the following gnostic prophets who preach that we should not be so accommodating of the religious.

Aloha, TI..alla dat's very inspirin' i'm sure, but i've found bein' angry messes up my flirting techniques wit' da ale-wenches & it plays hell with my digestion of fish-'ead stoo & Captain's Delight XOs..plus just contemplating FSM as an irate pastadeity makes me laugh ( ..see?)..(which may very well be the point of this, eh? some (many?) belief systems can't take a joke, so perhaps laughter is one way to profess our particular version (v3.5a, if i remember correctly) of the "eternal verities"..)

I see your point, but I think you have missed mine. When I speak of angry pastafarians I mean that we need to harness our outrage at how skeptics are treated in this country. Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics are viewed with derision everywhere in this country. We enjoy rights now, but imagine how our rights would erode if we suffered another 20 or 30 years under the rule of the moral majority.

Its time to get angry about how we are marginalized and treated. Most people fear us because they don't understand us. They fear that we lack morals. They fear we will corrupt basic family values. They are wrong about us, but if we fail to organize and get vocal, then we will only have ourselves to blame.

I am not advocating violence. Do you think that the peaceful civil rights movement was fueled by love and understanding. Hell no. Those protestors were pissed (and rightfully so). They were filled with indignation at how they were treated by the rest of society. They may have had deep respect for all people, but they were still angry about their lot in life and were energized to do something about it.

Having said all this. I am not necessarily advocating that we allow are heads to get bashed in by mobs of religious thugs. I'm not taking a hit from anyone without giving back. But I probably wouldn't start it either.

You need to read the articles and books I posted and watch the video. Most of them call for us skeptics to become more empowered and to show a less accomodating spirit toward religious belief, action, superstition, etc.

The Impaler wrote:I see your point, but I think you have missed mine. When I speak of angry pastafarians I mean that we need to harness our outrage at how skeptics are treated in this country. Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics are viewed with derision everywhere in this country. We enjoy rights now, but imagine how our rights would erode if we suffered another 20 or 30 years under the rule of the moral majority.

Are there no laws to protect the rights of everyone, religious or other? Outrage or no, how are you going to change our status as a minority? I'm not angry at all. I'm not badly treated at all. I find it very unlikely that somehow not being part of the "moral majority" will erode my rights in the next 20 or 30 years, or at all. I'm not suffering. I don't understand what you're saying at all.

The Impaler wrote:Its time to get angry about how we are marginalized and treated. Most people fear us because they don't understand us. They fear that we lack morals. They fear we will corrupt basic family values. They are wrong about us, but if we fail to organize and get vocal, then we will only have ourselves to blame.

Are you being badly treated? How? I'm not being badly treated. How do you know that "most people" fear us? Give me a source, because I very much doubt that anyone fears us simply for our religious beliefs. And, even if we were feared, unless we're doing something specific to cause it (beating up children? stepping on people's toes on the bus?), why should we change try to change it? It could be a phobia, and those are beyond my ability to affect. Unless they're on the rugby pitch or threatening my life, no one has any cause to fear me, and (to my knowledge) no one does.

The Impaler wrote:I am not advocating violence.

Good.

The Impaler wrote: Do you think that the peaceful civil rights movement was fueled by love and understanding. Hell no. Those protestors were pissed (and rightfully so). They were filled with indignation at how they were treated by the rest of society. They may have had deep respect for all people, but they were still angry about their lot in life and were energized to do something about it.

How is this the same as a human rights movement? We have rights. My lot in life is fine. I'm warm, safe, and well-fed. I hope that you are too.

The Impaler wrote:Having said all this. I am not necessarily advocating that we allow are heads to get bashed in by mobs of religious thugs. I'm not taking a hit from anyone without giving back. But I probably wouldn't start it either.

Are you saying that we're likely to be mobbed? And I'd advocate taking the hit and suing the pants off whoever hit you... I do hope this is a metaphorical, and not literal mob, like I'm taking it to be.

The Impaler wrote:You need to read the articles and books I posted and watch the video. Most of them call for us skeptics to become more empowered and to show a less accomodating spirit toward religious belief, action, superstition, etc.

I'll be accomodating if I please, I thank you very much. I could care less what someone believes, as long as they're a nice, polite person. I "need" not do anything.

I haven't read those articles (I'm on dial up, I don't feel like suffering through the wait), but I hope that I've missed something you're trying to point out because of my ignorance of what they say. This sounds very much like a "Help help, I'm being repressed". I'm sorry that this isn't quite an opinion, as you asked for, but a questionnaire, because I don't see why I should be angry or outraged at all.

I Apologize for the long delay. I was observing my favorite pagan holiday – christmas.

I don’t think it is necessary for us to quote each other. We appear to be the only two in the conversation. Quoting helps third parties keep up with the conversation, but that doesn’t seem to be necessary here.

Our discussion is interesting because it is based on our experiences. Yours have taught you that there is nothing to fear from the moral majority and the Christian fundamentalists. From the looks of your profile, it appears that you live in the UK (not sure on this, but I am positive you do not live in the Forgotten Realms). My experience in the US has been much different. Allow me to expound, and then you can tell me whether or not I should be angry or not; accommodating or not.

First, some background. I am an officer in the military. Over the past 40 years I have lived in 11 different US States in 15 different communities. Most of these states have been “red” states; those primarily populated by religious fundamentalists. Allow me to explain how they impact my security, freedom, and quality of life.

-My wife’s mother and father have never agreed with their daughter’s choice for marriage. They are so petty with their beliefs that they spend more time laying guilt trips on my wife (once a week by phone) than they do visiting the grandchildren (two times in last seven years). My kids don’t even know their maternal grandparents. Their avoidance is based purely on their strict religious beliefs.

-Each time I have moved the story is the same. The neighbors are initially friendly. We (my family and I) get invited to all kinds of events. As time wears on, my neighbors eventually discover I am a skeptic. At first the reaction is a bit of curiosity mixed with a certain amount of derision and condescension. They ask questions about how someone could ever be a skeptic and mix in a bit of preaching. They feign genuine interest, but it is a paper thin ruse. They don’t really want to try and expand their narrow thinking. Shortly after this, the invitations start to dry up. The neighbors don’t want their kids to associate with mine, etc. This may seem like a small thing to you, but being ostracized for your beliefs is a very aggravating experience. After so many moves of experiencing the same thing I have started keeping my beliefs to myself. But this is equally aggravating as I am forced to listen to their endless religious platitudes and prattling and pretend I agree. This is also very difficult to pull off in neighborhoods where the first question you are likely to get asked by new people is “What church do you attend?” (I’m serious, that is by far the most popular first question I am asked).

-I have been openly discriminated against in my chosen career path. At least one of my Commanding Officers openly disagreed with my beliefs and used them against me while evaluating my performance. He once told me that my problem was that I was a goddamn atheist. Although ironic and funny in retrospect, it was not funny at the time and his evaluations of my performance affected my career for several years.

-As I have become more senior in the military I have noted a disturbing trend. As I ascend in rank, more and more of my peers turn out to be fundamentalists. It’s as if the officer corp has a way of weeding out the non-fundamentalists. They don’t believe in dinosaurs. They believe the earth is 4,000 years old. They believe that gays are an abomination. Worse than all of this, they believe they have a moral obligation to practice their beliefs hand in hand with their chosen profession. They allow their religious beliefs to affect their judgment when making decisions about how to employ the command, punish their soldiers and sailors, etc. If you don’t think this is scary, you should think again. Allow me to spell it out. We have military commanders “over there” responsible for the lives of their soldiers and the security of the local populace who believe that Islam is wrong, that the local populace are not saved, and that the US had a moral right to enter the region if for no other purpose than to try and gain religious influence (read Huntington’s “Clash of Civilizations” to see how this is likely to work out).

-We have national legislators that don’t believe in dinosaurs and science in general. They have the unique ability to ignore the strongest of evidence when it goes against their beliefs. How can this be a good trait to have when you are responsible for critically dissecting issues in order to pass legislation? I will remind you of my countries position on stem cell research, gay rights, etc.

-We (Americans) elected a president who (paraphrasing here from a 60 minutes interview) felt a calling from god to lead a crusade following 9-11. And then he did. Do you know how that translates into Arabic? It would probably be something like being an American Jew living in US and hearing the German Chancellor reference Hitler in a positive fashion and how we might need to fire up the ovens again to achieve the final solution. Those people are full of hate anyway, but they certainly have some good justifiable reasons for it all now. If you don’t think that our Presidents religious beliefs entered into his calculus for deciding what to do in the Middle East, then you are sadly wrong. I find this scary and this is a direct result of my nation’s willingness to not only tolerate outrageous religious beliefs, but to court and cultivate them politically. To top it off, we recently tried to put another fundamentalist (Palin) in the Whitehouse.

-I have been openly harassed by religious fundamentalists who thought I was the devil. Religious fundamentalists hold real and meaningful political power in this country. Their power has been growing since the early 1980s. The patriot act and our President’s abuse of the power of the Executive Branch show how the American populace are willing to sacrifice rights and privileges when confronted with fear. Combine all of these factors and I do not think it is unreasonable to fear real mobs in the streets who desire to persecute non-believers. I agree that I have rights now, but if history has taught us anything it has taught us that individual rights are only maintained when the rights holders are vigilant.

I think you should come over to our side of the pond and experiencing it for yourself before you judge. I recommend going to someplace like Montgomery, Alabama to get a really hefty dose of fundamentalism.

I think that you've had some very unfortunate experiences. I also am saddened that you think I'm "judging", especially since you imply that I am doing so without any experience on your side of the pond. I actually live on your side of the pond; just not your side of the border.

Were you looking for a discussion, or were you looking for me to agree with you, and be angry on your behalf?

**Also, it's not necessary to PM me every time you reply. I'll see it, don't worry.

Sorry. Hard to get the tone right online. I would like a discussion. I'm not interested in people blindly agreeing with me, but I am rather fervent on the belief that the religious right have gained too much power in the US. I don't think my experiences are chance or bad luck. I know many others who feel the same way I do. Those who are vocal in the US about their skepticism are met with derision at best.

And in case I missed the mark on the overall tone of my email: I am not paranoid. I do not believe this is part of a conspiracy against me. I am not truly "angry" in the sense that I am frothing at the mouth and red faced. I am more angry as in "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore".

I'm afraid that whether or not your experiences are bad luck, these things happen. Are you going to force people to be tolerant of your opinions? You can't. Polygamists probably (I can't know, of course, as I am not one) think that their way of life is absolutely acceptable, whereas I would never allow any hypothetical child of mine play with theirs; if little Lucy started telling my little Susie that women should obey, obey, obey, I would be unhappy to say the least. To prevent this, Susie will not be allowed to go near Lucy under any circumstances. Am I intolerant of polygamy? Yes. Can they do anything about it? No. I'm intolerant and afraid of what ideas they might put into the head of my hypothetical child.

Different situation, but do you see what I mean? I can't control what other people think of my beliefs, and I'm not worried about it. As for your comment "I am rather fervent on the belief that the religious right have gained too much power in the US." I don't know what you're suggesting. The right to choose one's religion is a power that should be controlled? I just don't understand that at all, sorry. </confused>

Sorry about the tone confusion thing! I'm sorry, I took you for a grump! My bad. I'll be friendlier, mmk?

I'll chime in if I may, since this subject is a rather important one to me.

The power to choose one's own religion should not be controlled. But the power to force your religion on others should. That's what we are fighting here in the states. The religious right is constantly trying to impose their brand of religion into public forums. They are, as The Impaler states, often openly pushing it on our military members. They are trying to shove creationism into the schools. They are suing to have their religious symbols displayed in government buildings. An openly atheist person has a close to zero chance of being elected to public office.

I didn't worry too much about this until I had children. Now, they are barraged with this every day. They are asked to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, including the "under god" part, every morning at school. Their schoolmates think it is OK to tell my children that they are going to hell. (However, the school system where I live is good enough that biology class is unscathed, so far.) We have lived the last eight years with a president who thinks that funneling government money to churches is OK.

Impaler, I sympathize entirely. We skeptics need to speak up for ourselves. I don't care what the fundies believe in the privacy of their churches and homes, but I want the right to live my life free of their nonsense.

You seem to want clarification on how I am going to force people to be tolerant:

I don’t have a grand plan. I’m not looking to start a movement. Allthough, I really think someone should. I think we need a charismatic spokesperson to help raise awareness. I think what I was really hoping to get out of this blog was a discussion with other people that would get the juices flowing on the subject. We need more organization. We need some leadership. In any respect, just because we can’t make people accept or tolerate us in the short term does not mean that we should stand by and watch our rights erode. Imagine where other oppressed groups would be if they sat back and did nothing. In my opinion the atheist movement is doing just that; sitting back and letting it all happen. We need to be more vocal, organized, and with an agenda.

Hope that helps.

You confess confusion about my comment on how the religious right has too much power and then you imply that I somehow want to control a person’s right to choose religion.

Needless to say this is not what I am going for. What I am talking about is the organized Moral Majority and other fundamentalist groups that have managed, through political action, to have a significant, and in my opinion negative, effect upon our society. I’m not saying their right to politically organize should be taken away. I’m saying that there needs to be a humanist, deist, rationalist organization that is politically active and that counters these fundamentalist groups. If such an organization existed, then perhaps we would:

Benefit more from advanced stem cell researchCalifornia’s Proposition 8 may have been defeated (4 other states had similar propositions. All passed or were defeated in a manner that limited the rights of gay citizens.)Schools in Missouri wouldn’t be teaching creationism as a valid scientific theoryMaybe the republican party would have found a better running mate for John McCainEtc…

Ubi Dubium

Thanks for the support, brother. It’s definitely different down here south of the Canadian border. Hell, we have a creationist museum in DC that shows how the earth is only 4000 years old and how dinosaurs walked around next to man.

Thanks for the support, brother. It’s definitely different down here south of the Canadian border. Hell, we have a creationist museum in DC that shows how the earth is only 4000 years old and how dinosaurs walked around next to man.

<Pssssst!!>Ubi's a she.

"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."("Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.")-- Friedrich Schiller (1759–1805)Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-- Philip K DickOK, now let's look at four dimensions on the blackboard.-- Dr. JoyEnglish isn't much of a language for swearing. When I studied Ancient Greek I was delighted to discover a single word - Rhaphanidosthai - which translates roughly as "Be thou thrust up the fundament with a radish for adultery."

Thanks for the support, brother. It’s definitely different down here south of the Canadian border. Hell, we have a creationist museum in DC that shows how the earth is only 4000 years old and how dinosaurs walked around next to man.

<Pssssst!!>Ubi's a she.

Thanks ET. Maybe sometime I should get a more female-ish avatar. Or just get to 5000 posts, so I can get a prophet title like "Mother Ulterior" or something.

Impaler - There's one of those abominations here in DC too? My fundie brother-in-law tried to drag us to the big one in Cincinnati, but we refused. Where in DC is it?

The Impaler wrote:Elvalia, [...]I think what I was really hoping to get out of this blog was a discussion with other people that would get the juices flowing on the subject. We need more organization. We need some leadership.[...]

Thank you, and that's all I need. I'm not likely to be helpful at all in this, so I'll take my leave. *Bows*