Nobody speeds or shoplifts with an ordinary human cop watching. Nobody cheats on a test with the teacher looking right at them. But all these devout Christians disobey god all the time. They do not really believe. Except the crazy ones, as has been already discussed.

That's a damn good point. When I was a believer [irony alert] I'd have never smoked a joint (for example) in front of a copper, but I did it knowing full well god was watching, but it never stopped me.

Now, cue the christians coming along and telling me that I was never really a christian in that case.

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I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Dante: As a believer, I rarely questioned God and when I did, I relied on the Holy Spirit to give me the answers. I always came away from prayer with what my preachers and elders taught me. When it didn't make sense to me, I just assumed I was not understanding because of Satan or some mental deficiency.

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

That's a damn good point. When I was a believer [irony alert] I'd have never smoked a joint (for example) in front of a copper, but I did it knowing full well god was watching, but it never stopped me.

Now, cue the christians coming along and telling me that I was never really a christian in that case.

Or they would say you were still "growing in Christ"...You were forgiven for your transgressions, and eventually would come to the state of mind that "sin" became less and less of a temptation.

That whole "forgiveness" thing makes it OK to slip up, even over and over again with the same things, as long as you are convinced that the Holy Spirit is working in you. And since you are a filthy sinner to begin with, God doesn't EXPECT you to resist temptation anyhow...so the fact that he sees it doesn't matter. It just becomes more fodder for the whole circular idea of needing forgiveness and Christ's blood making everything all better.

edited to add Agga's quote, since another post and the switch to a new page made it seem like a non-sequitur

So how does one proceed with this idea that a Christian doesn't really believe, without letting it get sidetracked as it did for me and as t did with this thread?

It seems like almost every time I have a conversation like this with my friends it devolves into something else...an argument about evolution becomes an argument about the big bang...an argument about the cruelty of the old testament becomes an argument about, as you said, new testament overriding old testament etc. etc.

It's just more evidence of the obvious. They dance on burning ground. They know that if they stand on one argument for too long they'll get destroyed so they hope on the other foot to something else.

Yes, some of us really do believe. Some of us don't. Some of us act like we believe when we are around others and when we are by ourselves we behave like we don't care. Some of us act like we don't believe when we are around athiests and act like we do believe when we are around believers.

This is unfortunately the truth and many of us believers find it as inconsistent as non-believer's do.

Even Paul struggled with this one. "I do the things I don't want to do and I don't do the things I want to do. (My interpretation )

The thing is - nobody ever in this life is going to be perfect. Perfection is something which we believe occurs in the next life. This does not mean that we should not aim for perfection or (indeed) expect other people not to aim for perfection.

The notion of being a sinner - remains with us until we die. Being saved from our sins is not to suggest we do not sin anymore -but rather the eternal consequences of sin have been dealt with.

I believe and there are many reasons I believe. One of these reasons is probably because my mother taught me - my father was an athiest. Another reason probably is because I do wish to go to heaven and do not wish to go to Hell. I also like the notion that life has a purpose and that it is not randomly meaningless. I like the company of believers. I like the consistency and framework of Christianity.

I also believe because I choose to believe. I also believe because I have no choice. I also believe because there are so many contradictions. I also believe because believers in general are not arrogant in life (although some are arrogant in what they believe). I believe because the Holy Spirit persuaded me to believe without words and yet with the WORD.

It worries me not what a non-believer really believes about me. Nor what a believer believes about me. My faith or belief is not built upon my own understanding (although it would be interesting if it was).

Do believer's really believe? Hmmm - yes some of the do. But I have to say and agree with many here that many believer's do not act like they really believe because if they really did - then the world would look a lot different if they did. I mean what the 12 men who believed in the first place accomplished and their followers in the next four centuries is amazing.

Today believers around the world pray for revival - but they dont actually believe it will occur -or else they would be preparing for it. I don't pray for revival - but then again I don't think the church is dead and needs revival. What it needs is a kick up the backside.

This post is so far off. No wonder so many people are messed up. Your Christian doctrine is not even correct.

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."1 Corinthians 10:13

This post is so far off. No wonder so many people are messed up. Your Christian doctrine is not even correct.

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."1 Corinthians 10:13

God's standard is, and has always been, perfection.

T bright is back for another shit-kicking

Killing people by the thousands is NOT perfection

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

I believe and there are many reasons I believe. One of these reasons is probably because my mother taught me - my father was an athiest.

So, indoctrination. And if your mother had been a Muslim, you would likely have followed that faith and been just as convinced it was the One True Path.

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Another reason probably is because I do wish to go to heaven and do not wish to go to Hell.

If you were God, how impressed would you be at someone using this rationale?

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I also like the notion that life has a purpose and that it is not randomly meaningless.

I think my life has purpose. I know most people here feel that way as well. The randomness of our existence doesn't negate its meaning for us and for those around us.

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I like the company of believers.

I'm sure it is much easier to cling to a delusion when surrounded by others who share it.

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I like the consistency and framework of Christianity.

Yes, a consistent framework is a very good thing. I can think of a number of other choices which would be just as good. Or better.

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I also believe because I choose to believe. I also believe because I have no choice.

Which is it? I don't believe because I cannot simply "choose" to do so and have it be true. I have no choice but NOT to believe, because it simply doesn't add up. Would an act of false belief impress in omnipotent god?

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I also believe because there are so many contradictions.

Whaaaaat? How does that even make sense?

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I also believe because believers in general are not arrogant in life (although some are arrogant in what they believe).

People are of all sorts of personalities, believers or not. Atheists are quite often some of the nicest people you could meet.

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I believe because the Holy Spirit persuaded me to believe without words and yet with the WORD.

In other words, after hanging around with believers and getting thoroughly marinated in the woo, it started to just feel right. No surprise. It's a very normal phenomenon.

(ps...I see a bunch of replies since I started writing this, since it takes me so long to do the whole "breaking up the quotes" thing. So I'm just going ahead and posting it anyway, even though someone else has doubtless done a better job with all these points by now)

(pps..."normal phenomenon?" Geez, that was a bit of an oxymoron, wasn't it? Ah, well. Sorry)

You are right that He knew in advance that people would fail to be obedient. That's why in advance He created a way to reconcile the sinner to Himself. He didn't have to do that. He could have thrown the whole world out instead of sparing anybody and been perfectly justified. You don't like His justice - oh well. He didn't ask your opinion. It's His creation, and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

For those that don't like eyes on them, too bad.

"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."Hebrews 4:13

Your logic is incomprehensible. What you just said is the same as saying someone is a good father for telling their son to walk down the street, knowing they'd get hit by a car, but had called the ambulance in advance. Oh what a great and wonderful father he is. Hahaha.

You are right that He knew in advance that people would fail to be obedient. That's why in advance He created a way to reconcile the sinner to Himself. He didn't have to do that. He could have thrown the whole world out instead of sparing anybody and been perfectly justified.

Wow, blast from the past.

One would think if god figured out what to do ahead of time, he could've done the whole Jesus thing right away. Instead, he does the hokey-pokey for four thousand years.

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You don't like His justice - oh well. He didn't ask your opinion. It's His creation, and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

Since you brought up the parent analogy, I'm curious; do you think a child should obey his/her parents, no matter what?

If yes, then would you be willing to say that it is OK for someone to get themselves killed, as long as it's what their parents told them to do?(after all, this is supposely, what's happened with Jesus and his daddy)

Your logic is incomprehensible. What you just said is the same as saying someone is a good father for telling their son to walk down the street, knowing they'd get hit by a car, but had called the ambulance in advance. Oh what a great and wonderful father he is. Hahaha.

That's not what I said nor meant. Follow the sentence and try again. I can see you are a word parser.

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He demands obedience and faithfulness.... I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

You are right that He knew in advance that people (his son) would fail to be obedient (would get hit by a car). That's why in advance He created a way to reconcile the sinner to Himself (had called the ambulance in advance). He didn't have to do that. He could have thrown the whole world out instead of sparing anybody and been perfectly justified (he didn't have to call the ambulance). You don't like His justice - oh well. He didn't ask your opinion. It's His creation, and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

If you did not notice - I merely indicated a whole lot of reasons why I believe. I never said that any of them were the be all and end all. Certainly none of them are reasons why I would expect anyone else to believe.

I also simply wanted to be honest - transparently honest. I believe probably because my mother taught me - but not only for this reason. In fact I also noted that my dad was an athiest - but I did not follow his view.

As for heaven and hell - I do believe in this things - despite the fact that millions of people dont or are horrified by the notion that some people do believe those things. The point is - it is one of the reasons - not the only one and certainly not a highly significant one but it is one.

My whole post was in answering the topic starter and not presenting an argument. Your comments made me laugh because I did not imagine that I would find someone in here without a sense of the obvious. Thank you for making me smile.

So if I were to worship God while thinking He's a cruel bastard ... He'd be happy with that? Don't be nong Tony - you can't worship sincerely without having an opinion.

Who said anything about Him being happy? He commanded you to worship Him. Either you will do that with a loving heart (as a child loves a parent) or you won't. But either way, you will do it. I promise you.

It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "Romans 14:11

You don't like His justice - oh well. He didn't ask your opinion. It's His creation, and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

Since you brought up the parent analogy, I'm curious; do you think a child should obey his/her parents, no matter what?

If yes, then would you be willing to say that it is OK for someone to get themselves killed, as long as it's what their parents told them to do?(after all, this is supposely, what's happened with Jesus and his daddy)

You are correct wrt God's demands. It is perfection. I did not suggest otherwise. As for me not knowing my Christian doctrine - hmmm.

My point was that people are sinners and that no one can be perfect this side of Heaven save for Christ. Sin makes people inconsistent.

God demands perfection - but the Bible also says that "no one is rightoues" and methinks that includes me and you.

On the contrary, we are made righteous by the blood of Christ if we confess our sins, repent, and trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.Romans 4:22-25