What you are missing is that people aren't just given the position of team principal just for the hell of it. Ross began as a rather talented machinist who was also an engineer and as his experience grew, so did his roles and positions within teams, leading him all the way up to Team Principal, finally. And a rather successful first year with a car and team he had a hand in creating and developing. Go back to all the TP's in the history of the sport and you will see that the most successful ones, also experienced less than desirable seasons, some for seasons on end before experiencing their first taste of success. The really long tenured ones experience many more years of obscurity before once again experiencing success. look at Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Todt himself, Flavio, etc.. All of them are considered greats but their track records excluding Todt experienced success for only a short period of time before going back to not winning, but all were given the chance to work their issues out and once again become winners.

Ross more than most deserves equally such a chance and I think Hamilton is looking forward to working with him and if that doesn't happen I don't think Lewis will be very happy. Unless of course, on the off chance Mercedes produce a superb car and Lewis can win regardless of who is team principal and his engineer.

Although until he proves that he can win again, I wouldn't call him great nor compare him to Williams, Todt or Dennis and other multiple winners.

I have no doubt that the rumours put forward by Bild are accurate. They have been spot on with their stories about Mercedes and with Schumacher's comeback and Hamilton's signing they broke the stories while the parties involved were still trying to keep it under wraps and evading the questions. Eddie Jordan, too. This situation is no different and Wolff hasn't denied anything, just made the comment that he's not been at the team long and so hasn't assessed anything. I wonder who the source is in Mercedes? It'd have to be someone high up.

I don't think that Brawn has not been good enough as a Team Principal. I think it's too hard to make a judgement. Yes, the only time that he's had amazing success was with Brawn GP, using the car that is regarded as the most expensive car in history with a design element that was the smoking gun. However, money doesn't automatically buy success as we saw with Toyota who were the biggest spenders on the grid with nothing to show for it. Moreover, credit has to be given to Brawn for hiring the person who thought up the design and for backing it.

Brawn himself worked in the environment that was the key to success: getting the right people in the right places and allowing them the freedom to do things as they saw fit without interference. He is on record as commenting on this during his time at Ferrari. I can't believe that as a Team Principal himself he wouldn't have the same approach nor that he wouldn't be able to spot the right people for the work and the environment.

I suspect that a lot of the trouble is to do with the management above Brawn. Honda were well known for trying to run things by committee and for interfering from Japan. There have been indications that Mercedes have been similar. IMO the decisions that are being made now with respect to structure speak of more management involvement, not less and of decisions being made from a business rather than a racing perspective. The amount of 'Executives' alone is significant and that they are shareholders and people with business acumen is also notable.

That would be lame if Brawn is out...Fry exit will not effect as such...both Fry and Brawn became more wealthy when they sold it to Mercedes and do they were enjoying Merc hospitality form 2010-2011....god knows what Lewis will be thinking or he already knew it as Luda is the main person who convinced Lewis to be with Merc

What you are missing is that people aren't just given the position of team principal just for the hell of it. Ross began as a rather talented machinist who was also an engineer and as his experience grew, so did his roles and positions within teams, leading him all the way up to Team Principal, finally. And a rather successful first year with a car and team he had a hand in creating and developing. Go back to all the TP's in the history of the sport and you will see that the most successful ones, also experienced less than desirable seasons, some for seasons on end before experiencing their first taste of success. The really long tenured ones experience many more years of obscurity before once again experiencing success. look at Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Todt himself, Flavio, etc.. All of them are considered greats but their track records excluding Todt experienced success for only a short period of time before going back to not winning, but all were given the chance to work their issues out and once again become winners.

Ross more than most deserves equally such a chance and I think Hamilton is looking forward to working with him and if that doesn't happen I don't think Lewis will be very happy. Unless of course, on the off chance Mercedes produce a superb car and Lewis can win regardless of who is team principal and his engineer.

No ones arguing with the first part . I at least am saying that as TP not TD or engineer he has being rather lack lustre. Remember a big part of Brawn GPs success came from Honda employing some of the staff from Aguri. And the other teams dropping the ball.

As for his first year in Brawn remember that was a number of special circumstances. Give even the bulldog those circumstances he probably would have won. Frank for example had the duldrums because of things like lack of backing at the start, Engine suppliers pulling out and having to go with Judd or Mechachrome.

And how much time do you give him? He's had three years under Merc and has went backwards. Thats after 5 years of TP with only one successful year with a very expensive car. How long would a General Manager last in any other company pulling in the results he's had?

Some people like to run things from the gut, which just will not fit in with a manufacturer team where everything has to be put before the board and approved.

There are different versions of how good/bad Brawn is on here, but I am convinced e likes to run the show himself. He seems to be the sort of guy who would only give his best in his own team where he held all the strings and was able to make gut calls without having to give presentations on cost effectiveness. Rather in the mold of EJ and the old style teams like Tyrrell and Williams.

I do think those days are gone though.

_________________I have nothing to offer but blood, oil, gears, and sweat.

I have no doubt that the rumours put forward by Bild are accurate. They have been spot on with their stories about Mercedes and with Schumacher's comeback and Hamilton's signing they broke the stories while the parties involved were still trying to keep it under wraps and evading the questions. Eddie Jordan, too. This situation is no different and Wolff hasn't denied anything, just made the comment that he's not been at the team long and so hasn't assessed anything. I wonder who the source is in Mercedes? It'd have to be someone high up.

I don't think that Brawn has not been good enough as a Team Principal. I think it's too hard to make a judgement. Yes, the only time that he's had amazing success was with Brawn GP, using the car that is regarded as the most expensive car in history with a design element that was the smoking gun. However, money doesn't automatically buy success as we saw with Toyota who were the biggest spenders on the grid with nothing to show for it. Moreover, credit has to be given to Brawn for hiring the person who thought up the design and for backing it.

Brawn himself worked in the environment that was the key to success: getting the right people in the right places and allowing them the freedom to do things as they saw fit without interference. He is on record as commenting on this during his time at Ferrari. I can't believe that as a Team Principal himself he wouldn't have the same approach nor that he wouldn't be able to spot the right people for the work and the environment.

I suspect that a lot of the trouble is to do with the management above Brawn. Honda were well known for trying to run things by committee and for interfering from Japan. There have been indications that Mercedes have been similar. IMO the decisions that are being made now with respect to structure speak of more management involvement, not less and of decisions being made from a business rather than a racing perspective. The amount of 'Executives' alone is significant and that they are shareholders and people with business acumen is also notable.

I largely agree, but think Brawn was a brilliant race strategist whilst at Ferrari.

Merc have made some awful race strategy decisions over the last three years, so (IMO) Brawn employed the wrong person for this job - although last season was better (strategy wise) than the previous two seasons.

I wouldn't be suprised if Brawn leaves Merc as (if I read the situation correctly) he left Ferrari when Luca got involved, and he didn't like the decisions being made. I suspect that he's not v happy at management decisions (made above him) recently at Merc either.

I have no doubt that the rumours put forward by Bild are accurate. They have been spot on with their stories about Mercedes and with Schumacher's comeback and Hamilton's signing they broke the stories while the parties involved were still trying to keep it under wraps and evading the questions. Eddie Jordan, too. This situation is no different and Wolff hasn't denied anything, just made the comment that he's not been at the team long and so hasn't assessed anything. I wonder who the source is in Mercedes? It'd have to be someone high up.

I don't think that Brawn has not been good enough as a Team Principal. I think it's too hard to make a judgement. Yes, the only time that he's had amazing success was with Brawn GP, using the car that is regarded as the most expensive car in history with a design element that was the smoking gun. However, money doesn't automatically buy success as we saw with Toyota who were the biggest spenders on the grid with nothing to show for it. Moreover, credit has to be given to Brawn for hiring the person who thought up the design and for backing it.

Brawn himself worked in the environment that was the key to success: getting the right people in the right places and allowing them the freedom to do things as they saw fit without interference. He is on record as commenting on this during his time at Ferrari. I can't believe that as a Team Principal himself he wouldn't have the same approach nor that he wouldn't be able to spot the right people for the work and the environment.

I suspect that a lot of the trouble is to do with the management above Brawn. Honda were well known for trying to run things by committee and for interfering from Japan. There have been indications that Mercedes have been similar. IMO the decisions that are being made now with respect to structure speak of more management involvement, not less and of decisions being made from a business rather than a racing perspective. The amount of 'Executives' alone is significant and that they are shareholders and people with business acumen is also notable.

I just noticed this bit.

Ross didn't hire the guy that came up with the design.

The Super Aguri guys came up with the design. When the factory closed it's doors Honda took some of the guys on. They brought the idea with them pointing out the loop hole. It's the same way that Williams and Toyota came up with it.

I have no doubt that the rumours put forward by Bild are accurate. They have been spot on with their stories about Mercedes and with Schumacher's comeback and Hamilton's signing they broke the stories while the parties involved were still trying to keep it under wraps and evading the questions. Eddie Jordan, too. This situation is no different and Wolff hasn't denied anything, just made the comment that he's not been at the team long and so hasn't assessed anything. I wonder who the source is in Mercedes? It'd have to be someone high up.

I don't think that Brawn has not been good enough as a Team Principal. I think it's too hard to make a judgement. Yes, the only time that he's had amazing success was with Brawn GP, using the car that is regarded as the most expensive car in history with a design element that was the smoking gun. However, money doesn't automatically buy success as we saw with Toyota who were the biggest spenders on the grid with nothing to show for it. Moreover, credit has to be given to Brawn for hiring the person who thought up the design and for backing it.

Brawn himself worked in the environment that was the key to success: getting the right people in the right places and allowing them the freedom to do things as they saw fit without interference. He is on record as commenting on this during his time at Ferrari. I can't believe that as a Team Principal himself he wouldn't have the same approach nor that he wouldn't be able to spot the right people for the work and the environment.

I suspect that a lot of the trouble is to do with the management above Brawn. Honda were well known for trying to run things by committee and for interfering from Japan. There have been indications that Mercedes have been similar. IMO the decisions that are being made now with respect to structure speak of more management involvement, not less and of decisions being made from a business rather than a racing perspective. The amount of 'Executives' alone is significant and that they are shareholders and people with business acumen is also notable.

I just noticed this bit.

Ross didn't hire the guy that came up with the design.

The Super Aguri guys came up with the design. When the factory closed it's doors Honda took some of the guys on. They brought the idea with them pointing out the loop hole. It's the same way that Williams and Toyota came up with it.

Brawn was Team Principal when they came there. I've made the assumption that he would have had at least some involvement in who was hired to work on stuff relevant to the race team.

"I'm the team principal and I'm in charge""Ross Brawn says he "hopes" to stay on as Mercedes team principal for a "long time"""Brawn says he had spoken to McLaren's Paddy Lowe, who Mercedes chief Niki Lauda admits they want, and "we know the situation""""If I choose to leave then Paddy will come"

so Johnston when Brawn was TD during the Schumacher days he also was not good enough to be TP even though being a TD includes managing/coordinating a fair number of people and working within a budget to allocate resources and select development paths.

Then he wins a WDC and WCC with Brawn, which he had enough vision to buy from Honda and was fully devoted to building that car when in the team during his previous years, even then he bought the team and basically had no resources at all to develop it and yet won with it both championships. Yet you give him no credit and you contribute that for him spending massive amounts of money developing it during the 2007-2008 Honda years? well most teams spend similar amounts for their championship winning cars and then spend much more during the season to maintain that! and they may not even be championship winning cars!

Then he works with Mercedes and known to have a budget similar to Lotus (not a high as Mclaren/RB or Ferrari) and beats them in the WCC 2 out of 3 times and then you say he hasn't won anything and he is a rubbish TP?

Being a TP is not really that different from TD with the only extra is that you will have to communicate with more non-technicals that TDs have to other than that the rules are the same, managing people and money is in both positions.

If you are saying he has been rubbish at Mercedes, then surely you must say he has been excellent with Brawn by winning in a team with absolutely no funds.

I am sorry but i see no logic in your argument for " he was lucky he won with Brawn in a car that was developed pre-season" and " he takes all the blame for Merc no winning"

Brawn was Team Principal when they came there. I've made the assumption that he would have had at least some involvement in who was hired to work on stuff relevant to the race team.

The way I have heard it is that it was all done above the team. The guys Honda took on had long links with the company.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

so Johnston when Brawn was TD during the Schumacher days he also was not good enough to be TP even though being a TD includes managing/coordinating a fair number of people and working within a budget to allocate resources and select development paths.

Then he wins a WDC and WCC with Brawn, which he had enough vision to buy from Honda and was fully devoted to building that car when in the team during his previous years, even then he bought the team and basically had no resources at all to develop it and yet won with it both championships. Yet you give him no credit and you contribute that for him spending massive amounts of money developing it during the 2007-2008 Honda years? well most teams spend similar amounts for their championship winning cars and then spend much more during the season to maintain that! and they may not even be championship winning cars!

Then he works with Mercedes and known to have a budget similar to Lotus (not a high as Mclaren/RB or Ferrari) and beats them in the WCC 2 out of 3 times and then you say he hasn't won anything and he is a rubbish TP?

Being a TP is not really that different from TD with the only extra is that you will have to communicate with more non-technicals that TDs have to other than that the rules are the same, managing people and money is in both positions.

If you are saying he has been rubbish at Mercedes, then surely you must say he has been excellent with Brawn by winning in a team with absolutely no funds.

I am sorry but i see no logic in your argument for " he was lucky he won with Brawn in a car that was developed pre-season" and " he takes all the blame for Merc no winning"

How many people do well at one level but then when asked to step up to the next one can't quite make the jump?

Vision or a chance to make a profit? The car was designed and built and Honda agreed to pay some of the bills and what I have read teams don't spend the same sort of money. Three design routes, two wind tunnels in full flight? It's not called the most expensive car ever built for nothing. Soon after buying he was looking to sell.

And yet Lotus have improved whilst Merc went backwards with a man with no F1 experience at the Helm and the Lotus BS as well in the mix. What does that tell you when a man with Boulierrs inexperience can beat someone with Brawns experience on a similar budget and a rookie who kept crashing?

And as for winning with no funds like I said before by the time the rest caught up they had built that buffer . Heres a thing if a TP has no funds and reduced staff. surely there is less to worry about day to day. Not as if he is pushing for the upgrades, getting them to work, asking why they are not working.

As for taking the blame for not winning. After three years who should take the blame for NO improvement?

If the problem is not at Brawn where is it?

And remember in this very forum it was said Whitmarsh should be binned because Maccas failings stop with him. Because of the fuel in Spain, the bad pitstops and the failure to re-sign Hammy. How come in one team the failings of the team end with the TP but not with another team?

Basically if Brawn is so good how come in 2012 the team was worse than 2010?

I am not debating the forum and was never in attack mode for Whitmarsh, i am debating the points you are raising.

As for RB not stepping up with the position, I don't see that. being a Technical director and a team principal are very, very similar and even the TD is usually asked to talk to outsiders to "sell" his work. I am 100% positive that is not the case. even though there is no evidence to back your claim as while being a TP he produced a championship winning car and in his own fund limited team he still won the WDC and WCC with it so he basically made the car and won with it! and even when everyone caught up with them they still won GPs and reached podiums despite limited development money so you know he was using his money wisely and the car still had it.

even if i do agree with you that the car is "the most expensively developed", doesn't being severely underdeveloped during the season make the fund spent on the car overall similar to competitors? and he still won!

I am not saying he is blameless for the Mercedes fall, but in no way is he undeserved of the position he is in and i really don't see them as falling back. If you look at 2012 they had a win, a couple of podiums and introduced a new innovation. not a lot of teams do that! up until Monaco they were the surprise of the season.

They haven't yet won a championship but so have Mclaren, Ferrari, Lotus and Williams.

He is certainly not the problem, he has nearly done everything in F1 for me saying he is the problem at Mercedes is like saying Newey is the problem at RB if they don't win next year.

Who knows maybe the technical teams (or TD) are the one causing the problems at Merc. based on his recent history i really doubt he is the problem and i am quite sure that Lauda and Wolff don't know half what he knows about managing a team

Luring a driver is one thing. Doing the job is another. Thats forgetting that it was supposedly Lauda that talked Hammy round.

In '09 if they weren't developing the car. Exactly why should he get the credit for the podiums etc? What was he bringing to the table in the latter half? Why is he responsible for those results?

His rep as a TD means nothing because he is no longer a TD. We are here in the here and now not in the early noughties. As a TP the only thing he can be judged on is his performances since '08. I've already posted the stast and the team has steadily went backwards under his leadership since '09.

If you can't see them falling back look at the points and the table positions .

You know it's funny. JB gets slated for winning with that car. Brawn gets lauded for it

I am sorry but are you saying he was useless during the latter half of 2009, if you say so i am very sorry but you are clueless as to what a TP does.

I say both JB, RB and the whole Brawn team deserved credit.

Also getting a driver is part of his job as TP.

the car did not have zero development, the car had budget limited development. and he chose where to spend the money as TP so with others catching up i think he held on OK despite the few resources he had. i also think he did well to make that car with Honda in the first place, and did terrific to buy the car from them.

here is a statistic: as TP he has a WDC and beat out the similarly budgeted Lotus 2 out of 3 seasons. and is just behind Ferrari, Mclaren and Redbull.

I also don't see why you disregard his success as TD, in automotive engineering terms it is similar to raising from being the suspension head to the Vehicle dynamics head a very similar job with the same skill set.

And another fact is that he was always one of the key people responsible for the success whichever team he was in reached (one of them was a TP). now you come and say he is incompetent is absolutely meaningless IMO.

I am sorry but are you saying he was useless during the latter half of 2009, if you say so i am very sorry but you are clueless as to what a TP does.

I say both JB, RB and the whole Brawn team deserved credit.

Also getting a driver is part of his job as TP.

the car did not have zero development, the car had budget limited development. and he chose where to spend the money as TP so with others catching up i think he held on OK despite the few resources he had. i also think he did well to make that car with Honda in the first place, and did terrific to buy the car from them.

here is a statistic: as TP he has a WDC and beat out the similarly budgeted Lotus 2 out of 3 seasons. and is just behind Ferrari, Mclaren and Redbull.

I also don't see why you disregard his success as TD, in automotive engineering terms it is similar to raising from being the suspension head to the Vehicle dynamics head a very similar job with the same skill set.

And another fact is that he was always one of the key people responsible for the success whichever team he was in reached (one of them was a TP). now you come and say he is incompetent is absolutely meaningless IMO.

I haven't said he was useless as a TP during '09 saying it is over rated. Once again I will state that'09 was the exception ratehr than the rule due to a peculiar set of circumstances.

He's not just behind he's quite a bit behind the top three and he has lost ground to the Lotus. The number of points dropping every year. As you say similar budgets yet a relative newbie has caught up and over took him. Someone with no previous experiance of F1.

Why do I disregard his time as TD. Because we are talking about his effectiveness as a TP. They may be similar but they are not the same. In one he is a monkey in the other he is an organ grinder. It's his effectiveness as the organ grinder I am questioning not as the monkey.

As for being responsible for the Key people. As i pointed out before some of the key people were brought in by those above him. Now in Merc are you saying that Brawn was responsible for Lauda and wolff? I've already said how it was Lauda that was supposedly talked Lewis into it. (Remember Bernies Xmass card. It was Lauda not Brawn in the Merc). With Lowe the story is Wolff was ready to get him for Williams but that has changed to Merc. That is Wolff not Brawn. 0

"Lowe would be the fifth Mercedes employee who has been a technical director at another team, joining Brawn himself, Mercedes' technical director Paddy Lowe, and their two head designers Aldo Costa and Geoff Willis."

James Allison is heading there IMO. Lowe will head to Merc soon but I don't think he'll have any input into the 2013 car. He'll head up the 2014 car. Brawn will stay to oversee 2013 then head off into the sunset.

Thing is why should Brawn just step aside for someone else? He doesn't have to. He's basically leaving the ball in Mercedes park. They either sack him to hire Lowe or they keep their faith in Brawn. I'd do the same.

Who will take him whilst there is a good chance he will jump to Merc? and Macca could see him out cutting the grass around MTC.

Basically rock and a hard place.

This makes me think that Brawn resents having been put in such a place, and he doesn't want to relinquish without putting up a fight for it. I wouldn't blame him, but why resent a new hire, instead hate the one who did the hiring. Another possibility is that Merc DOES have something nifty up their sleeves, so people are just positioning themselves to rake it in for what its worth... if I were Brawn spending all this time to get them to snuff, I'd resent it.

Brawn was Team Principal when they came there. I've made the assumption that he would have had at least some involvement in who was hired to work on stuff relevant to the race team.

The way I have heard it is that it was all done above the team. The guys Honda took on had long links with the company.

If we look at it that way then that means that a lot of the decisions that are the domain of Team Principal were being made by the Board, which limits the ability to which Brawn can be effective in his role, which means we can't really make a judgement on his effectiveness as Team Principal.