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00:56:21 I mean SICP doesn't say anything on other types of quoting than (quote )
00:56:43 thanks for the advices
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01:34:30 anyone care to review my proposal for whatsits?
01:35:17 sure
01:35:28 what's a whatsits
01:35:30 ?
01:37:07 Now known as a comparator, actually. It's a bundle of procedures associated with equivalence.
01:37:18 See http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ComparatorsCowan
01:39:15 so T.typeEqual, T.equal, T.compare, T.hash, for any type T?
01:39:53 I actually use a global type=? in my implementation of eqv?
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01:41:10 No, not typeEqual.
01:41:26 The two arguments can be of different types.
01:42:14 what is "other procedures"?
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01:42:58 by "other procedures" do you mean equal/compare/hash?
01:43:10 Yes.
01:43:17 ooooh
01:43:22 I didn't get that part
01:44:36 I hate to say this, but your comparators are not IEEE-754 compliant
01:48:49 Who's violating the floating-point tablets now?
01:49:52 there are 3 aspects of comparison that I don't think any language has complete coverage of
01:50:09 (1) Rounding (2) Epsilons, and (3) Unordered
01:50:26 *phablets
01:51:29 rounding and epsilons require an extra parameter, which doesn't work well with the whole binary-operator thing, and unordered comparisons require a new operation, which no one knows how to name
01:51:52 jcowan, ugh, i see what you mean about the boxed code and italic igly
01:52:27 canhas PeakWeb design back plz
01:52:29 Well, comparators are about total order, and NaN violates that total order.
01:53:02 And unlike the case of non-real numbers, there is no least-surprise answer that I can see. So I make it an error to pass them.
01:53:09 OTOH, default-comparator has to handle them somehow.
01:56:19 I can add a make-inexact-comparator that curries rounding and epsilon.
01:56:40 What are these comparators under discussion?
02:01:14 A comparator is a bundle of four procedures: a binary equivalence operator, a binary three-valued comparison operator, a unary hash function, and a type-check procedure that validates the arguments of the rest.
02:01:37 They are intended for use with hash tables, trees, sets, and other similar data structures.
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02:02:03 (kpreid: I'm inclined to think that a comparator with neither equivalence nor compare is not a comparator at all.)
02:02:46 Sounds kludgey...
02:03:04 In short, it is a type class.
02:03:18 or rather, an instance thereof.
02:03:31 An instance of a particular type class.
02:03:32 But not tied to a specific data structure, since the type checker is an arbitrary predicate.
02:03:44 is a type class, rather.
02:04:18 I am beginning to believe that R7RS-large will have an arbitrary-predicate type system for the most part.
02:05:37 sounds common lispy
02:05:59 Well, CL allows arbitrary predicates with SATISFIES?, but that's hardly the core of the type system.
02:06:08 How do I invent new type classes, and what if I want more limited type classes?
02:06:29 -!- miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
02:06:33 What if I have a total order but no hash function?
02:06:54 In this context, there is no such thing as a type class in the abstract, only specific type classes. If you want Monoid, you have a record with typecheck, mappend, and mempty.
02:07:27 Riastradh: No problem with a total order but no hash function.
02:07:48 Just that a hash function without equivalence is useless.
02:08:40 You can of course infer equivalence from order, though not the other way about.
02:09:53 adu: Still reading it, finished, or abandoned the effort?
02:13:04 still reading
02:13:20 Ta.
02:15:09 Did Alexey send a note about `ontologies'?
02:15:52 I would recommend renaming string-comparator-ci to string-ci-comparator
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02:17:59 omg I love if3
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02:21:38 Riastradh: He did, but I didn't like the word due to its already heavy overload. (On my 2011 income tax return, I listed my occupation as "ontologist", which was quite true that year.)
02:21:40 I really don't like the definition of complex-comparator
02:22:02 Nobody does, but is there anything better to be had? It is the least-surprising bad choice.
02:22:14 You can blame me for the word `ontology'.
02:23:27 Indeed, but why did you choose it, and what did you mean by it? I didn't see your note, only a reference thereto.
02:23:41 (if (= (real-part x) (real-part y)) (compare (imag-part x) (imag-part y)) (if (= (imag-part x) (imag-part y)) (compare (real-part x) (real-part y)) *unordered-value*))
02:23:44 adu: Fixed {string,char}-comparator-ci
02:24:17 Total order, remember.
02:24:18 Well, it's supposed to be a fairly general description of information you know about some stuff.
02:24:52 So `ontology' was the best word that came to mind (in the afternoon the idea occurred to me and I wrote some code using it).
02:25:46 Fair enough.
02:26:05 Riastradh: you invented RDF?
02:26:20 ...No.
02:26:27 what?
02:27:59 I suppose I could write a partial comparitors library
02:28:38 More important than writing a library is writing applications that demonstrate that it works and serves a useful purpose.
02:29:01 This is a meta-library; it arose in contemplating what the set and hash table libraries for R7RS-large should be and do.
02:30:08 so I get the impression that complex (as viewed as a pair), strings (as viewed as a sequence of chars), and lists are all compatible
02:30:23 My theory about the `ontology' idea was that you could use it to automatically make useful decisions at run-time about what data structures would be most applicable for some arrangement of data given what you know about the data.
02:31:33 Riastradh: I personally think that ontologies are underrated
02:32:38 And you could write programs messing with little views into the arrangements of data parametrized by the ontology so that they wouldn't have to have it baked into them -- that is, the little programmettes could just say `I want to work with an unordered set of these things over here --->', and let whoever passed in the things pass in the ontology too, and let the set library decide what internal data structure to used based on the ontology.
02:34:06 Exactly what I am doing on a more limited and concrete scale. However, unless the facts in the ontology are quite specific, it's hard to draw certain kinds of deductions.
02:34:38 No, not exactly what you are doing.
02:34:41 For example, to use a bit/bytevector as a set, you have to know not only that the elements are integers, but also within what range they are allowed to operate.
02:34:43 You're doing type classes.
02:35:02 It's a little more general than type classes.
02:35:21 The purpose of the ontology abstraction was to leave out even what type classes you want to work with.
02:35:24 it sounds like an interface
02:35:31 For example, a hash table package can notice that it has been passed the eq-comparator, and ignore the hash function there in favor of an address-based hash function.
02:35:59 s/integers/exact integers
02:36:12 I don't like that, it should use the comparitors hash function
02:36:44 That's bad in the case of eq?; you don't want to expose address-based hashing to the outside world, only to data structures of which the GC has special knowledge.
02:37:15 If I figure out a nice way to compute a total order on some set of objects, then I ought to be able to say that in the ontology I use for the set of objects, and thereby cause something to start using a balanced binary tree in the place of a linear list.
02:37:16 Trying to use an address-based hash function as a general hash function will get you in trouble, because it is not idempotent.
02:38:30 Riastradh: In order to make that work, "is a total order of" has to be a known predicate, or inferable by some known method of reasoning from known predicates.
02:38:47 The trouble is, where do you stop?
02:39:06 There has to be some set of ground relations that are directly intepretable.
02:39:24 *shrug*
02:39:25 jcowan: is it possible to define a comparator that returns something other than -1, 0, 1?
02:39:36 Give the system a time limit on its reasoning...
02:40:15 I don't mean "stop" in the sense of "stop reasoning" but in the sense of axiom schemata.
02:40:22 Riastradh: are you talking about Alexey Radul?
02:40:28 adu, yes.
02:40:31 that is, you stop when you find some axiomatic relations, and what are they to be?
02:40:37 Riastradh: OMG I love his work
02:40:48 Riastradh: I've been building a system to work with cells and propagators
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02:41:06 Riastradh: and playing with the MITScheme impl
02:41:12 Stop when you can make progress in the program.
02:41:20 Riastradh: why?
02:41:27 Huh?
02:41:33 why stop?
02:41:37 My last message was intended to be addressed to jcowan.
02:41:41 oh
02:41:42 ok
02:43:00 I've been trying to figure out a way to store Cells and Propagators in RDF graphs, and weather or not the AddContent() method can be as simple as adding a triple
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02:44:09 because right now, the file-format for propagator graphs is .scm
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02:49:42 adu: Since most Schemes don't provide access to the IEEE rounding modes as such, can we emulate the rounding/epsilon pair in a high-level implementation?
02:50:10 Well, they should!
02:50:21 yes, rounding and epsilon could be arguments to make-ieee-comparator or something
02:50:28 That, or they should eschew inexact arithmetic altogether.
02:50:46 my big question is about the unordered comparison, which would apply to NaNs and complex numbers in the strict sense
02:51:35 but if you're forbiding partial orders, then that's not a valid question I guess
02:52:38 is it possible to have a specific exception for that?
02:52:59 like comparison-with-nan-exception
02:53:30 that would solve it, given a catch or guard feature
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03:31:49 adu: I suppose so
03:32:31 in addition, make-inexact-comparator could have an arg saying what to do with NaN (more than +inf.0, less than -inf.0, same as 0.0 and -0.0, error), something like that.
03:32:34 I'll add it to the issues list.
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05:41:10 how can I change a negative number into a positive one?
05:41:38 if I want to find the absolute value of -11, how do I just get 11 out of that?
05:42:03 at least some schemes seem to include an abs function
05:42:10 can't use abs
05:42:59 rudybot: last seen Daemmerung
05:43:00 klutometis: offers Daemmerung a few small-cap funds
05:43:10 why not?
05:43:16 (- 0 x)
05:43:21 it's a SICP problem
05:43:33 ...or (- x), if you're into the whole brevity thing.
05:43:39 lol
05:43:44 g1 dude
05:43:56 thanks
05:45:27 ah duh i had it right
05:45:47 had something else broken tho
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06:02:23 Where'd jcowan go?
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07:59:19 Quote is nasty .. (let-syntax ((test (syntax-rules () ((test 'foo) quote)))) (test (0 1))) => 0
07:59:49 How would you propose that it work?
08:01:05 I was reading R5RS and it's not immediately apparent whether one can use quote to have constant sexps in the pattern. But I guess it makes sense this way because the pattern language isn't Scheme, so there's no reason `quote' should have special meaning in it.
08:02:03 What would be nice then, would be if the 'foo abbreviation weren't allowed in a position like that, but since that's usually done on the reader level already I guess there's no easy way around it.
08:02:28 The minor downsides of homoiconicity, I guess ..
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08:58:31 lo
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10:44:12 I asked something similar before but, just to make sure, will I miss anything if I skip R2RS to R5RS, once R7RS-small is out ? (0 and 1 were enlightening from a paedagogical point, but starting from 2 it seems to be relatively boring. 6 is a different topic entirely I think.)
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11:04:45 taylanub, why do you want to read them? :)
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11:23:28 rszeno: The original report was very enlightening, the revised one also quite good, the rest seem to be dry specs but I thought they might still give some interesting perspectives with regard to functionalities that were initially omitted, dropped, etc. for various reasons ...
11:24:55 But I'm guessing now the wisdom one would get from that would be rather insignificant.
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11:33:30 my question was more about your goal about utility of doing this from your point of vie. I agree are interesting to some extent but are still specification.
11:35:08 Simply getting more into (theoretical) CS. :)
11:35:09 i suppose i read all of them how they come but i don't realy remember, :)
11:37:02 you are interesting in using or implementing scheme?
11:37:10 or both?
11:37:29 Both. All CS, basically.
11:38:37 imo are tons of interesting things, you could spend all life only finding them
11:39:39 for example if you look only at schemers.org you have a lot of reading for next few years, :)
11:39:55 Right .. I guess reading a series of very-similar specs for a prog lang would be a waste of time when there's so much diverse stuff.
11:41:00 Heck, I have yet to learn Haskell!
11:41:49 is already a babel, are too many, ml, ocaml, erlang, ... :)
11:43:34 but learning few of them help in learning others
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12:07:57 taylanub, this is something i found interesting http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~bernardy/pp/Lectures.html
12:08:32 i was looking for something similar but found this
12:09:29 in fact i was looking for this diagram, http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~bernardy/pp/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng.pdf
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12:16:14 Thanks, will look into those.
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12:21:27 welcome
12:31:56 taylanub: check out PLAI if you haven't already
12:32:07 also http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dfried/
12:32:54 PLAI goes into the whole "paradigms" thing. and mostly argues that it's not useful
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13:02:56 Hi, how do you chain (and X (expression-involving X)) emulating Maybe in Haskell?
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13:04:30 find it http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-2/srfi-2.html
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13:52:01 ((lambda (food) (eat food)) brain-food)
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22:33:23 jcowan?
22:33:24 foof?
22:33:39 R7RS committee^Wsoviet^Wworking group?
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23:19:20 Hi, if someone had a bad day I propose looking on this - pastebin.com/z3Th4wPQ , this is a piece of not to good code, perhaps You may feel grateful for the ability of writting better code :). Speaking more seriously, I'm just learning, this is solution to exercise 3.17 from SICP and I would really like someone to point the weak points of my code.
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23:51:23 pumpkin360, read this http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-4.html#node_sec_2.2.3
23:51:23 http://tinyurl.com/mez4a5n
23:52:22 imo is better to read SICP later, try this one first http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-1.html#node_toc_start
23:52:22 http://tinyurl.com/yt27tq
23:53:47 someone came ! well, I modified the code - pastebin.com/rNktuJAJ
23:55:38 read like 8 chapters of it, but it is just syntax description and didn't really like it.
23:56:10 ok
23:57:22 was thinking of reading the second book from MIT (HtDP), it had a lot of examples, but it was kind of boring and I really like reading SICP.
23:58:00 is ok, you come from java?
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23:59:40 no, I know some C and enough C++ to use STL, some python. Only learned languages when I needed them and scheme is the first one I want to know well.