anne: better value api, once that is there, they want to have access to resolved vaules, there are various features browsers have added for their debugging tools, figure out which property calls current styles.

16:27:11 [nimbu]

glazou: what are the rules that are being called at a given time

16:27:42 [nimbu]

shepazu: in svg wg we have thought about adding font metric api, i thought it might be interesting

16:27:45 [nimbu]

anne: like in canvas?

16:27:58 [nimbu]

shepazu: the thing in canvas might be suitable why not generalize for genereal users

16:28:13 [nimbu]

dino: you do not exactly know thats the font being used.

16:28:33 [nimbu]

dino: all the canvas does is how long the piece of text was, does not tell you the ascenders,

16:28:41 [nimbu]

szilles: or where the baselines are

16:28:48 [nimbu]

shepazu: the things the canvas one does is useful

16:29:03 [nimbu]

shepazu: i suspect chris saying web fonts working group will be interested in

16:29:23 [nimbu]

anne: there have been requests for font loading api, but we have not figured out right way to do it

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16:29:33 [nimbu]

vhardy: how do you capture requirements? do u have a place for that?

16:29:48 [nimbu]

anne: there is a page in whatwg wiki. we should probably create a place in csswg

16:30:15 [nimbu]

glazou: long ago we had a list of suggestions for css3 we can have the list of suggestions for cssom

vhardy: we discussed there was no formal resolution in previous meeting. there was a q on the amiling list if css regions should allow copying from element into flow instead of moving content into flow. the editors agree this is something we should move to future release might be interesting but more complicated, so proposal is not to do it now and see if there is consensus in not adding this feature at this time

16:45:04 [nimbu]

smfr: def agree on that

16:45:20 [nimbu]

RESOLVED: Issue 4: Copying Flow Content is not something we are looking at right now.

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16:45:55 [nimbu]

vhardy: next issue is CSSOM issue. we dont have absility to find out which element is in a named flow

16:46:01 [nimbu]

vhardy: there is no way to find that out right now.

16:46:23 [nimbu]

vhardy: our proposal is to get an action item for alexmog and me to add to the next draft unless someone thinks this feature should not be in the draft

16:46:34 [nimbu]

florian: are u going to do this programmatically or declaratively

16:46:42 [nimbu]

smfr: that could be regions plural right

16:46:53 [nimbu]

vhardy: programatically, plural

16:47:38 [nimbu]

glazou: this will be useful for debugging tools

16:47:57 [nimbu]

ACTION: vhardy alexmog to add an api to find out which element is in a named flow

16:47:57 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-350 - Alexmog to add an api to find out which element is in a named flow [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-08-01].

16:48:33 [nimbu]

vhardy: in css should you be able to set display on grid cell?

16:48:43 [nimbu]

vhardy: how do we integrate with css grid

16:48:54 [nimbu]

vhardy: one is to have a way to adress a gridcell to make it a region

16:48:56 [nimbu]

Hixie:

16:49:17 [nimbu]

vhardy: second, add an element as a child to the grid and declare it a region

16:49:46 [nimbu]

alexmog: it would be interesting to have pseud elements for other virtual things like grid regions for really advanced scenarios.

16:50:54 [nimbu]

alexmog: in pseudo elements you cant get a OM you need an entirely diff mechanism

16:51:14 [nimbu]

alexmog: it has to be a parallel model.

16:51:15 [bradk]

So one HTML element to create a grid slot, and another inside it to hold a flow?

16:51:26 [nimbu]

szilles: there needs to be a CSSOM module that gives us back the faciilities

16:51:29 [JohnJansen]

correct Brad

16:52:16 [nimbu]

RESOLVED: Change the grid to integrate with css regions through regular elements

16:52:56 [nimbu]

vhardy: if you want to grab content from flow, you use content property with from-flow.

16:52:56 [JohnJansen]

(in other words, not do anything special for grid)

16:53:22 [nimbu]

vhardy: there was an alt proposal you should make two properties parallel and it should be separate from content use float from and use the flow name to get the content from the flow

16:53:36 [nimbu]

vhardy: should we make it through two parallel properties

16:54:00 [nimbu]

vhardy: after we have had more discussions we think this is more clear use flow-form: <flow name>

16:54:09 [nimbu]

smfr: would flow-from work on pseudo elemtn before / after

16:54:13 [nimbu]

alexmog: vhardy yes

16:54:36 [nimbu]

dbaron: i am uncomfortable making an additional property here. as it seems to do same thing as content.

16:55:08 [nimbu]

alexmog: there are couple of considerations, content has a lot of baggage, there is content in css3 content, which is not where the spec is going.

16:55:23 [nimbu]

alexmog: the flow-from applies to anything into a region.

16:55:38 [nimbu]

alexmog: the content is somewhat different as it cant seem like it changes the nature of what it is applied to

16:56:08 [nimbu]

fantasai: does that mean i cant have a table that accepts content from the region

16:56:26 [nimbu]

vhardy: that is one of the issues, conceptually region is smthing that redirects content from somewhere else into this element.

16:56:33 [nimbu]

s/vhardy/alexmog

16:57:03 [nimbu]

fantasai: lets say i ahve a region and I want it to be a table row and I grab the contents of the table row and put it into regions what happens

16:57:09 [nimbu]

alexmog: there is nothing in regions that wont work.

16:57:30 [nimbu]

fantasai: so thats not display-inside region you are not overriding display inside just putting contents into it.

16:57:41 [nimbu]

vhardy: we have a proposal to limit regions to display-inside block.

16:57:52 [nimbu]

vhardy: otherwise it will become too complicated.

16:58:09 [nimbu]

vhardy: we can resume discussion once we reach that.

16:58:25 [nimbu]

alexmog: i dont feel very strongly about flow-from w.r.t content

16:58:38 [nimbu]

alexmog: content has a history that does not make it designed for this.

16:58:51 [nimbu]

arno: how would flow-from property how would it interact with content

16:59:00 [nimbu]

alexmog: content would be overriden

16:59:30 [nimbu]

vhardy: content is grabbing content from an element but flow-from is grabbing a segment not whole element. so its different

16:59:48 [nimbu]

plinss: thats what you get from from-flow so i dont see why thats a problem, you just need to adapt that notion to the content.

17:00:08 [nimbu]

alexmog: from the content property you can figure out what content is, from region that is not the same.

17:00:21 [nimbu]

fantasai: having one property that overrides another causes problems with cascade

17:00:38 [nimbu]

fantasai: which one wins? we should use the cascade as thats what it is for.

17:00:53 [nimbu]

vhardy: other people felt it was good to add a property.

17:01:34 [nimbu]

alexmog: content applies to inline flow-from doesn't. different compatibility. I am not sure it would always be that way. I am not sure if flow-from would always override.

17:01:46 [nimbu]

vhardy: content would only apply to before and after in 2.1

17:01:52 [nimbu]

fantasai: in css3 it would apply to all.

17:02:02 [nimbu]

plinss: that has been the plan for 10/11 years at least

17:02:11 [nimbu]

vhardy: the draft has the way you [fantasai] like it

17:02:21 [nimbu]

vhardy: if majority feel we are good with content, I am okay with that.

szilles: the two dimensions inline and block the rules are slightly different. in inline you would want it to be like a block, in block progression dimension you are going to use breaks to control…

17:14:39 [nimbu]

alexmog: even more complicated is when width is undefined we can come up with a width measurement, the final layout is difficult to do if you dont know what the width to be.

17:15:08 [nimbu]

alexmog: e.g. for float: right you need to figure out what the size is if it should be cleared or not.

17:15:19 [nimbu]

dbaron: whats the proposal?

17:16:09 [nimbu]

vhardy: start with region 1 and then put all content in region 1. if anything that does not fit, you have a first segment and reminder will flow into next regions. if you have regions with undefined height, it just gets all the content.

17:16:44 [nimbu]

vhardy: at any point it would be like rest of the flow will be in the content.

17:16:58 [nimbu]

smfr: say u have a bunch of ps and a 1000 px wide div.

17:17:15 [nimbu]

smfr: the first region is flexible width wise

17:17:25 [nimbu]

smfr: sounds like you would make first region 1000px wide

17:17:40 [nimbu]

dbaron: what is the proposal for what intrinsic size would be?

17:17:54 [nimbu]

dbaron: intrinsic size is not a function of layout

17:18:05 [nimbu]

alexmog: intrinsic is not the right term here.

17:18:13 [hober]

If the intrinsic width of a region is 0, the designer wins because their layout "fails fast" & they immediately know they need to specify a width

17:18:15 [nimbu]

alan: the proposal is intrinsic size does not apply

17:19:03 [nimbu]

alexmog: we should not be using the word intrinsic here.

17:19:28 [nimbu]

dbaron: i sounds like you are talking about what the sizes of the regions are going to be. that is still a separate notion from intrinstic size

17:19:40 [nimbu]

vhardy: intrinsic is used for replaced content 2.1

17:19:49 [nimbu]

dbaron: we used for table,

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17:19:57 [nimbu]

dbaron: i am talking about preferred width and min width

17:20:10 [nimbu]

fantasai: we call it two diff things based on if we are on tables chapter or not

17:20:33 [nimbu]

szilles: there are two situations, 1. normal flow 2. out of normal flow. the rules for width and height calc are diff in those.

17:20:47 [nimbu]

szilles: u use intrinsic when you are out of normal flow and simple calc in normal flow

17:20:59 [nimbu]

szilles: regions behave in exact same way.

17:21:38 [nimbu]

alexmog: 3 options: 1. if region size is undefined it is zero. that option works very well the standard box model rules apply regardless of where region is.

17:21:52 [nimbu]

the size will be calc using formula for box size.

17:22:08 [nimbu]

problem is when accidentally size is not set on a region it has no visibility and it is difficult to understand where it is.

17:22:13 [hober]

that's a feature, not a bug

17:22:40 [nimbu]

2. if it has a specific intrinsic size, 3000 by 850 it would be seful as you might have forgotten to set a size and then you can see it and then make it right size.

17:22:49 [bradk]

maybe we need 'position:flow' or 'position:flow(ident)', and then all flows are non-floating blocks.

17:23:06 [dbaron]

s/3000 by 850/300 by 150/

17:23:16 [nimbu]

normal box models wont apply.

17:23:20 [nimbu]

and thats not helpful.

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17:24:15 [nimbu]

alexmog: 3. size to content. we have to figure out what is going to fit into this region without exceeding max width max height if they are available.

17:24:34 [nimbu]

alexmog: this is very complicated to implement, it would require more than 1 layout pass

17:25:05 [nimbu]

alexmog: option 4. use normal box model calculations and if that ends up as still undefined with height, then use 300x850 intrinsic size.

17:25:14 [nimbu]

vhardy: it is like replaced content right.

17:25:22 [nimbu]

alexmog: it is not like the second option replaced content.

17:26:07 [nimbu]

alexmog: the 4th option would be an implementation of normal box sizing where the box size is not considered at the point where it is on or not but at the end when it is resolved or not.

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17:26:25 [hober]

s/850/150/

17:26:33 [nimbu]

thanks :)

17:27:41 [nimbu]

i would expect devs to slice area into bunch of rectangles and use grid or flex box and then add content to the.

17:28:17 [nimbu]

vhardy: the first proposal, the width and height would be set to 0 if you do not set height or width.

17:28:34 [nimbu]

alexmog: this is a strong arg for default size to not be strict width/height

17:28:50 [nimbu]

alexmog: if this region is going to have content in there, it wont have a size the flexbox and grid would give it.

17:29:04 [nimbu]

alexmog: for the pruposes of flex or grid it has to have a default size of 0.

17:29:10 [nimbu]

alexmog: then grid would give it size

17:31:09 [nimbu]

???: for e.g. auto width should be as wide as containing block so edges touch on normal flow. those rules would be ignored as per proposal 1, and width would be set to 0.

17:31:59 [nimbu]

???: the containers are typically well respected, we dont set to default size or width 0. so, which one is it that you are trying to achieve here.

17:32:10 [nimbu]

vhardy: the general question is what happens with auto widths and heights on regions

17:32:46 [nimbu]

vhardy: the point that smfr made is that if you layout everything then your widths maybe off.

17:33:10 [nimbu]

vhardy: your usecase would naturally work, intrinsic height to default to 0 it is hard to make it work.

17:33:50 [nimbu]

florian: in general resolving to 0 is smthing simple but not useful

17:34:11 [nimbu]

mollydotcom: it is established and understood in devs, but now we are changing expectation.

17:34:16 [sylvaing]

s/???/rossen

17:34:45 [nimbu]

alexmog: 0 is logical, if a region that is part of a chain of regions if it does not have any natural content, it creates 0 new rules for sizing it.

17:35:00 [nimbu]

alexmog: it is a good default.

17:35:16 [nimbu]

mollydotcom: default to 0 sounds to be very different from what you are saying

17:35:49 [nimbu]

vhardy: i propose we actually tab this discussion and go back. the default behaviour is not useful, we need to consider usecases.

17:36:18 [nimbu]

phil: I thought it worked with any kind of layout, some proposals sacrifice the notion that how the child layout will make use of available space given by parent layout

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17:37:04 [nimbu]

dbaron: vhardy's statement intrinsic size is 0 then size is 0 is incorrect

17:37:12 [nimbu]

plenty cases otherwise

17:37:45 [nimbu]

dbaron: for intrinsic widths, the obv sol do the intrinsic width computation do over entire contents of the flow.

17:38:13 [nimbu]

dbaron: what we have not specified we have not specified intrinsic heights in block progression dimension. flexbox and this (some degree) depends on that concept.

17:38:43 [nimbu]

dbaron: problem: they are a function of width not entirely intrinsic. 1 concept that is entirely intrinsic and another that is a function of width

17:39:21 [nimbu]

dbaron: i can imagine a situation where you want to build heights in region by starting either from 1st or last. splitting at breaks and using as many regions from beginning or end to build some sort of intrinsics where you need them. It might give you useful behaviour for a bunch of htem

17:39:31 [nimbu]

dbaron: there is a bunch of issues being conflated.

17:39:44 [nimbu]

dbaron: we need def for intrinsic sizes and we need to specify what actual resolved sizes for regions are.

17:40:18 [nimbu]

szilles i heard you say the cal of size algorithm it does occasionally use intrinsic size but not necessarily use intrinsic size. That is critical to making it work, and we have a def of intrinsic size.

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17:41:10 [nimbu]

alexmog: if whereever in the cal we need the intrinsic size we consider all of the content or remainder of content from this to that. that makes it clear it might be expensive to calculate. it is really a fallback, so not going to be used all the time, so expensive should not be a problem there.

17:41:23 [nimbu]

vhardy: that works for me

17:42:31 [nimbu]

ACTION: vhardy Rework the issue of resolved sizes for regions and come up with an alt solution for the group along with use cases and examples

17:42:32 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-351 - Rework the issue of resolved sizes for regions and come up with an alt solution for the group along with use cases and examples [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-08-01].

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<br type="coffee">

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18:00:16 [JohnJansen1]

JohnJansen1 is JohnJansen

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18:05:12 [nimbupani]

vhardy: region model, so the current spec has taken the approach that region is a general relation of an element relates to content

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18:06:38 [nimbupani]

vhardy: instead of working with children as source of generated boxes you would layout, you can get set of elements from source which will be used with layout algorithm

18:07:27 [nimbupani]

vhardy: looking at use cases, our thinking now is 1. they are like printed pages and lay it out from page box to page box. they are different viewport areas.

18:07:51 [nimbupani]

vhardy: mixing regions that have different type, region thats a table, a flex box and put them in a chain does not seem to make sense.

18:08:05 [nimbupani]

vhardy: as you would not know which kind of segment you get.

18:08:21 [nimbupani]

vhardy: limit regions to apply to things that are display-inside: block

fantasai: i can see wanting to have two flexbox containers and have a flow on them.

18:10:01 [nimbupani]

dbaron: the way flexbox spec works is the container is display: flexbox, the items in it is display: block

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18:11:16 [nimbupani]

vhardy: the idea is to simplify the implementation. not limit the future.

18:11:22 [nimbupani]

vhardy: there are usecases for tables as well.

18:11:49 [nimbupani]

vhardy: then we have to deal with mixing different float types which are much more complicated.

18:11:58 [nimbupani]

fantasai: I am okay as long as we can expand it in that direction

18:12:24 [nimbupani]

fantasai: I can see why you would want other display types

18:12:31 [nimbupani]

alex: i want to keep the first version of spec simple.

18:12:51 [nimbupani]

vhardy: what we are doing is not painting us in a corner. we should have a note saying in future we would extend it.

18:13:08 [nimbupani]

RESOLVED: for this version we are limiting regions to be block containers

18:13:22 [nimbupani]

ACTION: vhardy add a note to expand this in the future for different types of containers

18:13:22 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-352 - Add a note to expand this in the future for different types of containers [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-08-01].

18:14:03 [szilles]

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18:14:11 [nimbupani]

vhardy: region breaks. CSS 2.1 has page breaks that only work on paged media. css3 column breaks and page breaks.

18:14:32 [nimbupani]

vhardy: page breaks slices a column into two, the next column box moves to next page.

18:14:46 [nimbupani]

vhardy: how do you break content when you layout between regions

18:15:29 [nimbu]

vhardy: those questions also arise for multicol

18:15:45 [nimbu]

vhardy: if u have breaks in ur content and nesting what does it mean for heirarchy

18:16:18 [nimbu]

vhardy: current spec: we will add a new type of break and thats what content will honor when it lays out content. alex objected to it so we came up with alt proposals

18:16:39 [nimbu]

vhardy: instead of saying i need to have a new break, state which breaks you will honour

18:16:53 [nimbu]

vhardy: as a region you state which breaks you honor

18:17:05 [nimbu]

vhardy: what that means is content is break aware and container aware.

18:17:36 [nimbu]

vhardy: the content can annotate myself, you can then have container types and associated break types.

18:18:10 [nimbu]

alex: is this clear, or do we need a picture

18:18:20 [bradk]

picture

18:18:43 [ChrisL]

picture and photo

18:19:17 [nimbu]

alex: using either column breaks or page breaks producing multicol layout with regions there is no way to define currently contents going from one column like region to another column like region if you have a columnbreak, but if you have a page break then you need to go to a new page with a new container

18:19:29 [nimbu]

alex: we need to communicate this region is a column and another region is a page.

18:19:57 [bradk]

so, column-break would break to next region if both regions are each one-column blocks?

18:20:14 [nimbu]

alex: if we decide we dont need that kind of precise control in regions coz that content would be designed in smaller pieces, with one kind of break. we would gravitate to never need column/page break difference. but only one kind of break.

18:20:30 [bradk]

unless a block is identified as a page somehow?

18:20:56 [nimbu]

vhardy: one of the extensions is to generalise ideas and do named breaks

18:21:07 [nimbu]

vhardy: my content should know what kind of container it is laid out on.

18:21:26 [nimbu]

vhardy: another approach is if your content just wants to know where it should break.

18:21:43 [nimbu]

vhardy: second approach content does not know about container types or what kind of breaks are being used.

alex: yes, they do different kinds of breaks. page break and section break.

18:23:01 [nimbu]

vhardy: ur q is on existing tools?

18:23:05 [nimbu]

smfr: existing tools

18:23:39 [nimbu]

alex: columns are onlu possible as full-page columns or full section columns, so page break is always a column break. there is no such thing as breaking multi-col block …

18:23:52 [nimbu]

alan: in indesign you have a column break, page break, frame-break

18:24:05 [nimbu]

alex: whats the diff between frame/page break

18:24:12 [nimbu]

alan: frame break is like a region

18:24:19 [nimbu]

florian: can u have nested frames

18:24:25 [bradk]

frame breaks can jump across several pages to get to next frame to, right?

18:24:32 [nimbu]

alan: I think so, i do not know if it makes a difference in the break scenario.

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18:24:51 [nimbu]

vhardy: frames are more like regions

18:24:56 [nimbu]

alan: yes

18:25:38 [nimbu]

plinss: dont confuse column breaks with region breaks as column only breaks to another col not a region

18:25:53 [nimbu]

plinss: i dont see why you should respect other kinds of break.

18:26:04 [nimbu]

alex: so how do you know the region is in the next page?

18:26:10 [nimbu]

plinss: from the pagination model.

18:26:38 [nimbu]

alex: what is a page?

18:26:49 [nimbu]

fantasai: a page in css is a page box

18:27:22 [nimbu]

fantasai: in mozilla those are page boxes. particular kind of css box

18:27:36 [nimbu]

alex: in IE they are also kind of a box.

18:28:18 [nimbu]

fantasai: a page break requests a break between page boxes.

18:28:43 [nimbu]

alex: i would like to be able to write page view in a standard way not just for print preview but also for page reading (like online magazine)

18:29:04 [nimbu]

plinss: if you are doing with divs you are not doing anything with css box model.

18:29:29 [nimbu]

alex: you can have multiple regions in every page. if you are going to do page break in content and requires it continue to next page, no way to determine what next page is.

18:30:00 [nimbu]

florian: you need something that gets you to next page

18:30:28 [nimbu]

florian: if we want to support that we need something like that.

18:31:01 [nimbu]

alex: if some content that you place in to region has page-break: avoid, is that smthing regions will not be capable of satisfying, or would we have smthing different.

18:31:08 [fantasai]

break-before: region(mycustompaginator)

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18:31:28 [nimbupani]

smfr: why dont u use normal paged media?

18:31:51 [nimbupani]

alex: if nothing more adv is available we would consider every region is a page from point of view of breaking

18:32:02 [nimbu]

szilles: all the things u have said requires a content change.

18:32:40 [nimbu]

szilles: the author wants to present this content if it were a page in the display he is presenting to the user

18:32:57 [nimbu]

vhardy: if you want something foo, then you say break for 'foo'

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18:33:38 [nimbu]

alex: i dont get why you are objecting. moz has internally a special element to represent …

18:33:48 [nimbu]

fantasai: we have a page box we have smthing in the rendering tree that represents a page box

18:33:58 [nimbu]

alex: as an author how do you make an element a page box

18:34:00 [nimbu]

fantasai: we cant

18:34:30 [nimbu]

alex: with regions we are creating an opportunity for author to use page navigating algorithm.

18:34:45 [nimbu]

plinss: do u want headers and footers to appear on random elements?

18:35:19 [nimbu]

dbaron: there is an assumption that you should be able to do what you described without changing the content. i dont think thats true

18:35:57 [nimbu]

florian: u might want to break sometimes on certain page breaks and not on some others.

18:36:21 [nimbu]

vhardy: thats the intended functionality is to have more than 1 kind of breaks.

18:36:48 [bradk]

What about regions inside regions inside regions inside regions? You need to be able to indicate level

18:36:48 [nimbu]

plinss: you really are talking about a region break to a higher level (in nested regions).

18:37:14 [nimbu]

fantasai: e.g. break-before: region('named flow');

18:38:16 [bradk]

You might not know the region you are in, but know that you want to break 2 levels up. break-before:region(-2)

18:38:18 [nimbu]

vhardy: take an action to add the usecase alex is talking about and measure up the actions

18:38:36 [nimbu]

alex: only region break is also generally okay.

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18:40:16 [nimbu]

alan: before we got to pagination, it sounded like plinss was saying if we have col breaks and region breaks and i have flow going to regions that are not going to multicol elements you would prefer col break to not break to next region.

18:41:19 [nimbu]

vhardy: if you got page break and not in paged media it does nothing

18:41:42 [nimbu]

alan: if you have a region situation and u have a column break i prefer my text to go to next region from auth perspective each region is a single column

18:41:57 [nimbu]

alan: we have usecases where regions to use multicol layout

18:42:19 [nimbu]

alex: in multicol spec does it say in paged media each page should be considered a column?

18:42:38 [nimbu]

ACTION: howcome to answer if paged media each page should be considered a column?

18:42:38 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-353 - Answer if paged media each page should be considered a column? [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2011-08-01].

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18:43:30 [nimbu]

vhardy: option1 seems to be off the table.

18:43:59 [nimbu]

vhardy: we agree we need breaks that are typed.

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18:44:24 [nimbu]

plinss: if we have nested region flows we need ability to break a level.

18:46:12 [nimbu]

plinss: the types of usecases that alex is taking about i think we should have to work on getting browsers to render a page in paginated mode.

18:46:48 [fantasai]

There was a suggestion to add 'overflow-style: paged' a while ago.

18:46:51 [hober]

Yes, some kind of explicit "I want paginated mode" switch is much cleaner

18:46:57 [bradk]

or a section of a page in paginated mode

18:48:13 [nimbu]

alex: we are making it possible to create a webpage that gives you the same experience as looking at a magazine. give it same kind of control including control of column breaks and page breaks. we would need to create new break types

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18:49:07 [nimbu]

alex: if we switch browser to switch to page mode, the ui browser provides to navigate pages is light years away from what designers would want in page navigation experience

18:49:51 [nimbu]

RESOLVED: we need breaks that are specific to containers they are part of.

18:50:25 [nimbu]

ACTION: vhardy come up with a proposal for breaks either a page-break or a general type of break or both and related use cases

18:50:25 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-354 - Come up with a proposal for breaks either a page-break or a general type of break or both and related use cases [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-08-01].

"For an <iframe>, an <object> or a <embed> element, the ‘flow’ property has a different behavior. The effect is similar to turning the ‘display’ property on the element to ‘none’ while moving the root element of the referenced document to the named flow."

18:52:34 [nimbu]

alex: if we remove it, then it would be a non-standard thing like font-size-adjust. if it stays there, it is okay to have it optional. Another option there is to have an explicit way of saying for an element if the element that is added to flow or content added to flow.

18:52:45 [nimbu]

alex: i like the second option as it is much more explicit.

18:53:05 [nimbu]

smfr: you start introducing cross origin problems also q of what to do with script style elements and stuff

18:53:36 [nimbu]

alex: the cross frame security does apply. We are not going to take content from iframe if its not in the same origin.

rossen: agreement is wrap-mode should be enough to create an exclusion as reg floats are already exclusions, we dont need another.

19:02:04 [nimbu]

rossen: it would be interesting to combine what wrap mode really means outside or inside of shape

19:02:25 [nimbu]

rossen: if you want table cell circular, you can apply shape on the inside of an element without affecting the outside default shape/box model

19:02:53 [nimbu]

rossen: the last version of proposal we had, wrap-mode: default as if wrapping was not involved.

19:03:22 [nimbu]

vhardy: this is a stub, i need more work on that.

19:03:29 [nimbu]

alex: so initial is around?

19:03:32 [nimbu]

rossen: initial is none

19:03:48 [nimbu]

szilles: if its auto floats can behave the way they do today

19:04:04 [nimbu]

vhardy: i propose we dont get into this. we need to work out the details. we have not discussed it.

19:04:08 [nimbu]

rossen: thats fine by me

19:04:50 [nimbu]

dbaron: i am uncomfortable about making resolutions about details when I do not understand the models yet

19:05:14 [nimbu]

vhardy: wrap-mode: inside it will wrap inside (shows slides)

19:05:35 [nimbu]

vhardy: wrap-mode: all-left would control the wrapping internally for the left side.

19:06:18 [nimbu]

vhardy: we resolved having 1 property trigger an exclusion rather than 2 proposed by ms

19:06:29 [nimbu]

alex: maybe we dont need resolutions on these fine grained issues.

19:06:41 [nimbu]

vhardy: i think the resolution is to have a single trigger than 2.

19:06:49 [nimbu]

vhardy: not on the specific properties

19:07:40 [nimbu]

dbaron: it seems like you are proposing the model where anything wraps around anything. i have not seen a lot to explain how thats supposed to work. i saw the spec which says this syntax is supposed to do this thing but it is no where close to doing that thing.

19:07:43 [stearns]

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19:07:49 [nimbu]

vhardy: we will get to that.

19:09:05 [nimbu]

ACTION: vhardy make the default value for wrap-mode be auto.

19:09:05 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-356 - Make the default value for wrap-mode be auto. [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-08-01].

19:09:23 [nimbu]

rossen: next point is containing model for exclusions

19:09:52 [nimbu]

rossen: we didnt make any change to css to containing model. based on position property containing block is computed just like css2 block.

19:10:04 [nimbu]

rossen: there is one exception, that is the new position: page-value that we are adding

19:10:21 [nimbu]

arronei: we can talk about that later when we get to css position

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19:10:51 [nimbu]

alex: what it is saying is that the scope of what an exclusion affects its containing block.

19:11:28 [nimbu]

alex: the important difference this makes compared to other containing model is that it could be defined an element affects anything that it visually overlaps.

19:11:49 [nimbu]

alex: it could be defined an element with exclusion affects an element further down in the content flow and nothing before it.

19:12:07 [nimbu]

alex: that would be very limiting in positioning exclusions backwards and forward which is a very common use case

19:12:30 [szilles]

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19:12:45 [nimbu]

dbaron: so you are proposing that things that create exclusions are still positioned according to normal css rules

19:13:14 [nimbu]

dbaron: 2 divs both contain text, the second div has margin-top: −5em wrap shape smthing to make a circle that is 5em radius and they both have text.

19:13:23 [nimbu]

dbaron: where do you position the second text?

19:13:46 [nimbu]

alex: we are getting there to describe the processing model which is where we resolve contradictory layout situation.

19:14:03 [nimbu]

alex: can we go over issue 5 then issue 1 as issue 1 is most difficult issue

19:14:26 [nimbu]

rossen: so, issue 5 was ordering of exclusions. both the container models is same as css2.

19:14:41 [nimbu]

rossen: everything in the scope of the container will be affected by exclusion

19:14:42 [nmccully]

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19:16:23 [nimbu]

rossen: overlapping exclusions: 1. first draft mentioned taking doc order which was not intuitive 2. we are staying with z-index ordering. that appeared as double dependency from exclusions from within the content that would influence the outer exclusions or content outside. but we are scoping the effect of exclusions to containing block then ordering per z-index becomes much more easier.

19:16:46 [nimbu]

szilles: show the example.

19:17:05 [nimbu]

rossen: it is visual vs. content order by default.

19:17:46 [nimbu]

alex: based on z-index, if its not set, elements that over lap prev elements then later elements create exclusions over prev elements. we should try to avoid relayout.

19:18:13 [nimbu]

dbaron: so when you say exclusions affect only other things in containing block I presume you mean everything descendant from containing block. It includes siblings and so on

19:18:27 [nimbu]

dbaron: this idea of using z-index you are potentially crossing stacking context

19:19:30 [nimbu]

dbaron: with subtree model, you can be in situations where excl a should affect b but not vice versa as a is a descendant of b's containing block but b is not a descendant of a's containing block.

19:20:20 [nimbu]

rossen: if u are on some level of the tree, and u have containing block which have exclusions on each side. and a set of eclusions coming from its container.

19:21:02 [nimbu]

rossen: u can order the exclusions in the containing block. you can only take exclusions that are higher than your z-index. once you take those exclusions in your container then you need to resolve with exclusions inside.

19:21:29 [nimbu]

rossen: even if you resolve the exclusions inside, it does not affect exclusions that are coming above the containing block.

19:23:02 [mollydotcom]

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19:23:08 [dbaron]

just trying to figure out if this z-order model makes sense given that

19:23:39 [nimbu]

phil: you have a positioned element, and it has some -ve z-index so its going to be behind rest of the content.

19:26:43 [smfr]

ChrisL: mollydotcom is taking some

19:26:57 [ChrisL]

ty

19:27:01 [nimbu]

rossen: it may or may not wrap around D depending on z-index

19:27:07 [nimbu]

rossen: we know D can never wrap around C

19:27:12 [nimbu]

vhardy: is D a containing block?

19:27:16 [nimbu]

alex: all are abs pos

19:27:39 [nimbu]

rossen: the answer here is we apply priority based on z-order at container levels

19:27:53 [nimbu]

rossen: if smthing affects B based on z then everything in B would be affected by that.

19:28:11 [nimbu]

rossen: there should be no way D would wrap around C, so ther eis no way C would wrap around D.

19:28:25 [nimbu]

phil: what if there is opacity on D?

19:28:50 [nimbu]

alex: D does not have to use wrap-mode it does not have to create an exclusion.

19:29:12 [nimbu]

rossen: exclsion is only when you want to "exclude"

19:29:41 [nimbu]

alex: discussion on using -index or other kind of index is a separate discussion.

19:30:08 [nimbu]

alex: issue is to determine order on exclusions and we have come up with z-index.

19:30:25 [nimbu]

rossen: the prev containing model was different that was exposing a number of complexities

19:30:39 [nimbu]

alex: we should consider all hte complicated z-index combination and see if it works

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19:30:52 [nimbu]

szilles: what you saying is that the drawing order is the model of exclusions

vhardy: We'll just take all the feedback and integrate it into the next draft.

20:43:41 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: Back to issue 1, processing model.

20:43:42 [florian]

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20:43:47 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: Currently we take the easy way out.

20:44:21 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: We treat exclusions as out-of-flow, so you lay out once to pick up any "auto" positions that exlusions may anchor to, then you position exclusions, then you fill in the rest.

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20:44:42 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: The obvious problem with this is the accumulation of error; exclusions will push around their own or other's auto positions.

20:45:08 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: There are discussions about a better processing model that would keep the auto positions closer to the right place in the flow, but so far there's been nothing solid enough for us to write down.

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20:45:30 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: That is the processing model we have for oof with position:absolute|fixed|page.

20:46:14 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: The model rossen is describing, I'm proposing to have it as non-normative atm; it describes something specific enough that simple cases can be interop, but it leaves room for a more advanced processing model later.

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20:46:23 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: We'll tighten it up as we get impl experience.

20:46:39 [TabAtkins_]

arronei_: If you make it non-normative, you can't test it or depend on it.

20:47:04 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: We can make it normative to the extent of the simple bits, but I don't think we can fully fill it in yet.

20:48:32 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: position:static has only one difference - you actually lay out with the flow.

20:49:27 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: For position:static exclusions, they're laid out with the normal flow pass.

20:49:39 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: If all you hae is static exclusions, you don't need a second pass, as they're laid out as part of the content.

20:49:49 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: What happens if they have a negative margin?

20:49:58 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: Same as today - they'll overlap the previous content.

20:50:14 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: Doesn't that contradict what exclusions should be doing?

20:50:42 [bradk]

It would be like a float, more or less, if static? Only affecting the leading edges?

20:50:45 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: They only push around other stuff in the abspos case.

20:51:22 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: [draws a diagram]

20:51:40 [bradk]

Can someone post a photo once there is something to look at on the whiteboard?

20:52:37 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: While laying out text, you lay out line by line. When you encounter a static exclusion, you're in the middle of layout out one line (previous lines are already done).

20:53:11 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: If this was a regular div, the block would consume all the space to its sides, pushing following text below it. Exclusion just lets following text fill in space around it.

20:54:15 [arno1]

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20:54:16 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: Moving on to further issues.

20:54:30 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: issue 7, what does "shrink-to-fit" mean for floats with shapes?

20:54:33 [szilles]

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20:55:33 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: We defined an easy way out here - use the bounding box of the exclusion shape as the "shrink-to-fit" for the floater.

20:56:00 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: Nobody really liked the idea that they have to calculate the closest intersection of arbitrary shapes - too hard of a problem.

20:56:13 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: So it should be acceptable to treat exclusions as rectangles for the purpose of shrink-to-fit.

20:57:27 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: [something explaining the above point that I missed]

20:57:46 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: I think the shape doesn't correspond to the border box - it could maybe define its own bounding rect.

20:58:24 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: It shouldn't get bigger than what's calculated with bounding boxes.

20:58:29 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: You can always make it smaller.

20:58:42 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: I'm slightly confused. If I have a wrap-shape, it has a size. Why do I need shrinkwrap at all?

20:59:10 [vhardy]

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20:59:14 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: We're talking about floats that are themselves shaped.

20:59:27 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: The shapes can have percenetages, so the shape is based on the size itself.

20:59:48 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: If the shape is a circle centered on the box with a radius of 50%, the shape is a function of the size.

21:00:06 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: If that was a div with width:50% inside of the float, the same effect would occur.

21:01:16 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: One more difference from the original exclusions spec was a property named "flow-wrap" that allowed elements to not pay attention to exclusions.

21:01:22 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: We should maybe rename it.

21:01:46 [miketaylr]

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21:01:54 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: A lot of people thought it was related to a "wrap-mode" property.

21:03:00 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: We also have Daniel's proposal that proposed a fairly different way to introduce exclusions.

21:03:10 [TabAtkins_]

vhardy: I think your presentation is a convergence of the two proposals.

21:03:16 [TabAtkins_]

rossen: Yeah, it got assimilated.

21:03:30 [TabAtkins_]

vhardy: So I think the next thing is to work on a new ED.

21:03:36 [TabAtkins_]

arno: And that's a wrap.

21:03:41 [stearns]

perhaps the name for "ignore wrap" should follow whatever we end up with for "cancel-underline"

21:03:44 [TabAtkins_]

/groan

21:04:18 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: I think we came to the conclusion that the name of the module should be "CSS3 Floats".

21:04:32 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: It eventually needs to be a bigger doc that describes much mor eof th eprocessing model,

21:04:47 [TabAtkins_]

... describing floats that don't overlap too.

21:07:17 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: [something about how extending 'float' might work]

21:07:26 [TabAtkins_]

arno1: Would that be in CSS3 Floats or something else?

21:07:42 [TabAtkins_]

vhardy: I think we should produce a first draft that covers what we know we want and have.

21:07:54 [TabAtkins_]

vhardy: Then later figure out how we want to slice it with gcpm and other float-related things.

21:08:27 [TabAtkins_]

arno1: My concern is that if this is float-related, we'd have to close on everything float-related to make this work.

21:08:38 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: I had the same concern. I think we can do Exclusions separately from Floats.

21:09:08 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: there is an issue with making Exclusions a Rec without having anything with floats.

21:09:28 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: But I think vincent has the right idea that we should write the draft now, and when we see it, it should be easy to tell what the right name is.

21:09:57 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: My general feeling about this draft is that it's very complicated to implement, and it's possible to write something much simpler to implement with most of the functionality.

21:10:08 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: I may want to look into going that way, but I haven't had a chance to do that yet.

21:10:29 [TabAtkins_]

vhardy: If we produced a new draft that you could comment on, would that be ok?

21:10:42 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: I think at this point the best way forward for me is to produce a new proposal.

21:11:21 [TabAtkins_]

florian: If we have proposals that look close enough, it's worth merging them. But we're early enough on right now that if there's something significantly different, it's worth exploring that separately.

21:12:08 [TabAtkins_]

alexmog: I would be really glad if we could remove things from the draft and still meet the goals.

21:12:27 [TabAtkins_]

florian: David, is what you have in mind the current draft with some things removed, or something totally different?

21:12:59 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: Similar things, but with a significantly different processing model.

21:13:51 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: I'm thinking that I want to separate the reordering aspects, and then not have the reordering implications within layout.

21:14:03 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: So if you need reordering, that's a separate process, and then layout is still one pass.

21:14:46 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: The part of this draft that scares me is the part that's not yet written.

21:15:12 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: It's hard to know I have comments on it before I read it. There may be a big gap somewhere that implies a big complicated chunk of processing model.

21:15:18 [TabAtkins_]

dbaron: I've only thought about it for the last few days.

21:15:47 [TabAtkins_]

vhardy: The processing model we've described is a bit different than what's currently in the ED.

nat: A second point, why do you have, in the alphanumeric tolerance section, a "1.1em" figure. That seems arbitrary.

21:27:50 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: koji was talking with hyatt about that issue. hiragina apparently, if you ask for half-width glyphs, won't fit within 1em if you put them side-by-side.

21:28:04 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: if that's true, why not just do it when they ask for it?

21:28:29 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: This is for whether you scale or not. This number is close enough that you usually won't have to scale.

21:28:34 [stearns]

s/hiragina/hiragana

21:29:10 [TabAtkins_]

kojiishi: The idea of scale is to compress glyphs so that they fit into 1em.

21:29:28 [TabAtkins_]

kojiishi: But there are some fonts that get slightly gretaer than 1em when you set two half-width next to each other.

21:30:09 [TabAtkins_]

kojiishi: So if two chars are much larger than 1em, authors would likely want to compress them. But if they're just a tiny bit over (maybe accidentally, like described here), you'd want to just leave them alone.

21:30:25 [TabAtkins_]

nat: Okay. I think having the built-in tolerance is orthogonal to the scaling issue.

21:30:26 [dbaron]

(not Hiragino? I think they were talking about the font)

21:31:14 [TabAtkins_]

nat: If you're tolerant of the idea that you're using glyphs that odn't fit into 1em, you're probably okay with not scaling, so you should just say no scaling.

21:31:44 [TabAtkins_]

kojiishi: Even if you do scale, though, you probably still don't want to scale if you're just very slightly over 1em.

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21:32:32 [TabAtkins_]

nat: But you're saying to scale it to 1.1em, not 1em.

21:32:43 [TabAtkins_]

nat: You can have an "auto-scale" that has some tolerance in there.

21:32:57 [TabAtkins_]

florian: Can we just have a scale with no tolerance, and let you add the tolerance in specifically?

Is it tragic to allow the glyphs tooverflow if they are slightly too wide?

21:40:06 [TabAtkins_]

jdaggett: In the original document this was based, there's an example for that.

21:40:35 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: I know that stuff like TCY'd "1.357" is actually done.

21:40:49 [jdaggett]

original document == jis 4051 spec

21:40:53 [TabAtkins_]

nat: I think we should just have a "use glyphs" option, and if glyphs don't exist, just do fallback.

21:41:40 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: We can say that if you find the right glyphs, just don't worry about compressing. Assume that the glyphs are the right width.

21:42:49 [TabAtkins_]

kojiishi: If the first font has the glyphs (slightly off the right width) but the second font doesn't, the first font would grab the glyphs and be slightly off-width, while the second would synthesize and be exactly right.

21:42:58 [TabAtkins_]

nat: I think you're far off in edge-cases here.

21:43:24 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: I think it's pretty simple. If it has half-width glyphs, it has half-width glyphs. Just use them.

21:43:58 [TabAtkins_]

nat: Why are we doing anything if the half-width glyphs dont' exist?

21:44:19 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: CSS generally tries to best capture the authors' intent.

21:45:20 [TabAtkins_]

kojiishi: If the author says "digits 3", and the half-widths are slightly more than half an em, you'll get slightly more than 1em-width TCY.

21:45:43 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: Is it possible to know if the font has third-width glyphs?

21:45:50 [TabAtkins_]

nat: There's a feature in OT that the UA can query.

21:46:21 [TabAtkins_]

jdaggett: The problem with these features is that for different features, different sets of glyphs are available.

21:46:32 [TabAtkins_]

jdaggett: For third/fourth-width, often only digits are available.

21:46:46 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: What about numeric punctuation (periods and commas)?

21:46:59 [TabAtkins_]

nat: Generally not. Most only have half-width punctuation.

21:47:19 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: So you could do years and integers, but not decimal numbers.

21:47:21 [TabAtkins_]

nat: Right.

21:47:38 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: I think we just need a clear processing model of whe nthings are decided.

21:48:05 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: I don't think we want to say "let's make as tring, and then try to compress it". I think you want to first check for half-width glyphs or whatever, and then build out of what exists.

21:48:58 [TabAtkins_]

szilles: So I want a clear statement of what you're looking for from the font, and underwhat conditions.

21:49:13 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: So what I'm hearing is that we should use the correct glyphs if the font has them, otherwise synthesize.

21:49:47 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: So if I'm doing "122", if the font has third-width glyphs, I use them. If it doesn't, I scale the "1" and "2" glyphs and then combine them, rather than making "122" and then scaling.

21:50:25 [TabAtkins_]

florian: Also, the current spec specifies just that they should fit into 1em, whihc allows cherry-picking half and quarter-width glyphs and combining them, which is not what you want.

21:50:29 [bradk]

Doesn't kerning and tracking affect if two 1/2-width glyphs fit into one em?

21:52:42 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: We can tell if the font has a "third-width" feature, but we don't know if individual characters have third-width glyphs. So if I wanted "IBM" in third-width glyphs, I'd request those glyphs from the font as third-width glyphs, but I may or may not actually get third-width glyphs back.

21:53:12 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: So once I get them back, if they're wider than 1/3em, I need to scaled them to 1/3 em.

21:53:59 [TabAtkins_]

fantasai: I think we can make an exception that, for half-width glyphs, don't measure and just use what you get. You may get proportional, which may be close enough.

21:54:05 [TabAtkins_]

bradk: Can kerning affect this?

21:54:14 [TabAtkins_]

nat: You don't kern monospace CJK fonts.

21:54:31 [TabAtkins_]

jdaggett: In theory, it's an issue; in practice, you don't ever kern these types of fonts. I don't think we need to worry about it.

21:54:58 [jdaggett]

... you don't generally kern these *glyphs*

21:55:16 [jdaggett]

i.e. third-width glyphs

21:55:35 [TabAtkins_]

kojiishi: I think it may still be useful to have an option to not scale glyphs, as it may be ugly sometimes.

21:56:19 [TabAtkins_]

florian: Perhaps if you say "use-glyph no-scale", you just use exactly what's given back by the font, no measurement. It may be too big, but shrug. Then "use-glyph" will scale if they're too big, and "compress" will just always scale the full-size.

dbaron: As the length of the repeating gradient approaches zero, you should average the color.

23:07:24 [fantasai]

Florian: Need to make sure it's not going to do that at 20px

23:07:42 [dbaron]

s/As the/You could just specify that as the/

23:07:43 [ChrisL]

I don't want the 1000 by 1000 device pixels rect above to be a solid colour

23:08:09 [fantasai]

plinss talks about billionths of a CSSpx

23:08:56 [ChrisL]

@shepazu could you read out my example please and make sure people understand it

23:08:58 [fantasai]

dbaron: I think it should be device pixels, because if you zoom out ...

23:09:24 [fantasai]

plinss: Say that the UA can substitute an average color if the gradient length is small [...]

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23:11:01 [fantasai]

fantasai: Just define what happens at zero. Everything above zero is handled by pixel-rounding, which we don't speicfy

23:11:10 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: So should I specify averaging color?

23:11:29 [fantasai]

dbaron: Need to specify color space to average in

23:11:51 [fantasai]

shepazu: So what happens when you zoom in?

23:11:57 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: That depends on implementation

23:12:02 [ChrisL]

@dbaron yes, you do

23:12:04 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: If you zoom enough you hit rounding issues

23:12:41 [ChrisL]

@tab that is always the case. welcome to the world of non-financial computing which uses fixed precision arithmetic

23:12:43 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: I want to make sure ChrisL's case is handled

23:13:00 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: is allowed to handle, don't know if I can require it

23:13:13 [fantasai]

..

23:13:19 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: I can't must without being precise

23:14:21 [fantasai]

shepazu: It's not as important to specify the behavior at 1px when ti's been defined as 1px, it's what the rendering is.

23:14:22 [dbaron]

I think Peter's suggestion was good.

23:14:38 [fantasai]

shepazu: Important part was ... as you zoom in that 1px width is now 50 pixels it should have the whole gradient

23:14:48 [fantasai]

shepazu: You can test that -- chris just wrote a test for that.

23:15:03 [fantasai]

shepazu: You haven't been dealing much with things like scale, but you're going to be, so you're going to run into this problem

23:15:21 [ChrisL]

css transforms

23:15:33 [fantasai]

Dean: We all know the implementers are going to do the best they can.

23:16:52 [fantasai]

plinss: This is very simply specified.

23:16:58 [fantasai]

plinss: You try to not overspecify it.

23:17:02 [ChrisL]

s/gradient"/gradient)"

23:17:38 [fantasai]

plinss: When the UA has knowledge of the output resolution, it's allowed to substitute an average color for the repeating color when the device does not have the resolution to capture the resolution correctly.

23:17:50 [fantasai]

plinss: It lets everybody do the right thing to the best of their ability.

23:18:22 [plinss_]

s/the resolution correctly/the gradient correctly/

23:18:34 [fantasai]

RESOLVED: Accept plinss's proposal.

23:19:06 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: Image values is becoming divergent in implementation stability. Some features like gradients widely implemented, others have no impls or are just beginning implementation.

23:19:35 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: In the interest of getting gradients unprefixed as soon as they're sufficiently stable, I'd like to either pull gradients out into a Gradients spec, or go through and kick a bunch of stuff into css4-images

TabAtkins: in non-premultilied, goes through an ugly grayish greeny color

23:56:36 [nimbupani]

(check in webkit vs opera)

23:57:17 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: If you go red - transparent - blue, if you want to make it work correct in non-premultiplied, you have to write red, transparent-red, transparent-blue, blue, placing transparent-blue and transparent-red at the same spot in the gradient

23:57:51 [fantasai]

plinss: Why don't we want to do premultiplied?

23:58:03 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: It's not natively available on some platforms

23:58:10 [fantasai]

smfr: We'd have to get libraries to add it

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23:59:28 [fantasai]

Brian: Alan Gresley was asking about non-premultiplied gradients because there are some cases that you'd want that result

23:59:53 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: You could simulate it by manually arc it through the color space, it's tricky, but doable, and a very uncommon case in comparison

00:00:13 [fantasai]

Brian: I had good results with Opera

00:00:35 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: With Opera and IE we'll have 2 impls, so let's stick with that.

00:00:45 [fantasai]

RESOLVED: Use premultiplied colors for gradients and transitions

00:01:20 [fantasai]

shepazu: At the outset of this effort, there was discussion about remaining compatible with SVG gradients.. was that abandoned?

00:01:26 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: No. SVG doesn't have alpha colors.

00:01:40 [fantasai]

shepazu: Talking about geometry

00:02:03 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: Yeah, I don't think that's useful. But I was going to talk tomorrow about using SVG paint servers in CSS or CSS gradients in SVG.

00:02:18 [fantasai]

shepazu: So an engine supporting both will have to support two different things.

00:02:20 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: Yes.

00:02:33 [fantasai]

plinss: Ok, let's discuss that tomorrow. Grids.

00:02:36 [fantasai]

Topic: Grids

00:04:04 [fantasai]

Phil: My name is Phil and I'm from MS.

00:04:59 [fantasai]

Phil: We recently published new editor's draft. Hoping none of it's controversial so we can go through it quickly.

00:05:11 [fantasai]

Phil: With one possible reduction in functionality in grid template property

00:05:38 [fantasai]

Phil: specifically, assinging display types to grid pseudos

00:06:30 [fantasai]

ACTION Phil: Post notes to www-style or www-archive so they can be put in the minutes

Phil: You could place children of the grid into them. We're removing that

00:07:15 [fantasai]

Phil: Removing grid-stacking property, which said which layout this explicitly-defined grid cell would be using

00:07:33 [fantasai]

Phil: The other mode it had was layer, which was the default layout type for a grid cell so items would layer on top of others

00:07:52 [fantasai]

Phil: When we presented that at MV ...

00:08:11 [fantasai]

Phil: Talked about creating flows inside a grid cell

00:08:30 [fantasai]

Phil: And assigning display types to the grid cell

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00:08:51 [fantasai]

Phil: This was about creating presentation-specific structure through declaration of these grid cells, trying to remove concept form the grid layout spec

00:09:25 [fantasai]

Phil: We also added new paragraph about grid cell concept. We still have logicla notion of a grid cell, but it's just an alias syntax for referring to a region of the grid.

00:09:32 [fantasai]

Phil: But we're saying it's not stylable

00:09:39 [fantasai]

Phil: It's just a way to name a spot on the grid

00:10:01 [fantasai]

Phil: In section 6.4 , repeating columns and rows. e got some ffeedback that the name dlines syntax we had didn't make sense inside repeating syntax

00:10:21 [fantasai]

Phil: Since it defined that only the firs toccurance of the name would be honore, and purpose of repeat syntax is to replay the grid lines over

00:10:34 [fantasai]

Phil: Added issue as te whether to remove that ability from there

00:10:44 [fantasai]

Phil: Any feedback, send it, otherwise we'll remove

00:10:54 [fantasai]

Phil: We also had another isuse on the grammar, for grid columns and grid rows

00:11:02 [fantasai]

Phil: So we changed from ... to ...

00:11:15 [fantasai]

Phil: I'll let you figure it out; trust me the new one is better.

00:11:29 [fantasai]

Phil: Section 7.1 anonymous grid cells, we just added some language about relation between grid cells

00:11:38 [fantasai]

Phil: Now it's just logical container, what does it do to grid items inside.

00:11:44 [fantasai]

Phil: Define them as containing block

00:11:57 [fantasai]

Phil: And we said how they came ito being, added language defining dminesions of the grid cell etc.

00:12:35 [fantasai]

Phil: Next is explicitly defined grid cells, 7.2 is gone

00:12:43 [fantasai]

Phil: Defining grid cells with a template is still there

00:12:48 [fantasai]

Phil: Still use the ascii-art syntax

00:12:59 [fantasai]

Phil: Keeping around grid-cell proeprty, just don't have pseudo-element selector

00:13:05 [fantasai]

Phil: Can still define grid, and put things in it

00:13:08 [fantasai]

Phil: witht hat

00:13:18 [fantasai]

Phil: Section 7.5 automatic placement of grid items.

00:13:27 [fantasai]

Phil: It's no longer what we're thinking, so removed note

00:13:34 [fantasai]

Phil: ...

00:13:51 [fantasai]

Phil: Importance of automatic placement, some language about fixup of grid; it matches language in flexbox

00:14:07 [fantasai]

Phil: And we noted that if we don't have this fature, the fixup isn't useful

00:14:21 [fantasai]

Phil: Everything just gets dumped into first grid row. We're planning to leave in, so this is just an observation

00:14:31 [fantasai]

Phil: I just renamed section 8.1 .. size of grid items.

00:14:39 [fantasai]

Phil: Needs more work; need to specify box model calculations

00:14:53 [fantasai]

Phil: So if going to be stretched, questions like whta if you have a replaced element with intrinsic ratio ...........

00:15:25 [fantasai]

Phil: 10 calculating isze of grid tracks. Don't know if anyone is implementing, or thinking of implementing, but if so, we've published osme pseudo-code about sizing these bits of the grid.

00:15:31 [fantasai]

Phil: Some bugs in it still

00:15:42 [fantasai]

Phil: We'll update a few more times before pushing to WD

00:15:48 [fantasai]

Phil: Lastly all these changes captured in Appendix A

00:16:21 [fantasai]

Phil: That is everything we have changed. The biggest piece is obviously the inability now to create these grid cells that you can give a display inside to control how they layout their contents, does anybody have objections to removing concept from the spec?

00:16:31 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: Ok with it, majority of my use cases don't need it.

00:16:48 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: But if I ant to use this with regions, I need to nwo insert dummy elements to position them with grid ...

00:16:58 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: I greatly disagree that I should put dummy divs in my doc

00:17:15 [fantasai]

Markus: We think that should be defined somewhere other than grid

00:17:42 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: I hate junk put into your page for the sole purpose of styling.

00:18:29 [fantasai]

Tab tries to explain the difference between semantic markup and stylistic presentation to the MS folks

00:18:54 [fantasai]

Steve: Aren't templates a little bit of both?

00:19:55 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: As long as we keep in mind that we might want to do this more generalized in the future, then I'm cool.

00:20:00 [bradk]

If the CSS is creating the pseudo-elements, then conceivably more regions can be created to accomodate more content.

00:20:03 [fantasai]

Vincent: We have a resolution on this from the morning.

00:20:14 [fantasai]

...

00:21:02 [fantasai]

Alex: One issue that we discovered ... which was that alignment in grid is currently different from alignment in flexbox

00:21:25 [fantasai]

Alex: What we discussed yesterday flexbox alignment, we kinda liked the idea of what grid is doing now. We're going to come up with a proposal that will make something consistent between the two.

00:21:37 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: Don't think they need to be different when both flexing and aligning stuff

00:22:00 [fantasai]

Markus: Q for Peter, we experiment with named lines, and ended up with very long strings.

00:22:31 [fantasai]

Markus: Is ther ea way to shortcut this somehow? Authoring becomes awkward.

00:22:45 [fantasai]

Phil: This example uses template

00:23:08 [fantasai]

Phil: It only takes one letter to name a position

00:23:22 [fantasai]

Phil: with named grid lines

00:23:35 [fantasai]

Phil: You end up putting 4 strings for each item that you had

00:23:55 [fantasai]

Phil: It gets a little verbose

00:24:04 [fantasai]

Phil: I think in practice if you have a grid, and have a large number of grid items

00:24:24 [fantasai]

Phil: And don't want to renumber them, you probably won't use named lines anyway

Rossen: Different from position: fixed because in scrolling media, it's fixed to initial contianing block. So element scrolls along with the rest of the content

00:44:03 [fantasai]

Rossen: Similar to abspos content that has no positioned ancestor

00:44:13 [fantasai]

Rossen: Whereas fixed replicates

00:44:52 [fantasai]

Rosse: Position page was specific to design so you can target only the current page, and unlike position: fixed; position: paged; elements ... you can position negatively, and you can overflow, and that's just fine, whereas fixed position that just clips

00:45:03 [fantasai]

dbaron: So it's positioned on the current page relative to its placeholder.

00:47:05 [fantasai]

fantasai: My concern is that you'll get a layout that makes sense on paged media, but breaks in scrolled. Opposite problem of fixed positioning.

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00:47:46 [fantasai]

fantasai: e.g. if you use this on a 15-page document, positioning 15-20 things throughout the document across the 15 pages, looks fine

00:48:11 [fantasai]

fantasai: Load that into a scrolled view, and everything piles on top of each other in the first screenful, and then scrolls away with the rest of the document empty

00:48:39 [fantasai]

...

00:48:51 [fantasai]

Alex: We should have discusison of what are different aspects of paged media

00:49:02 [fantasai]

Alex: Some means it's non-interactive, you're on paper

00:49:07 [fantasai]

Alex: Some of it means you're paginated

00:49:21 [fantasai]

Alex: From pov of layout, it's tempting to apply paged media to regions. But it's not paged media

00:49:58 [fantasai]

Alex: Should we have a new media type?

00:50:03 [fantasai]

fantasai: I think so.

00:50:20 [fantasai]

Arron: What I"m trying to ge there is, we have this defintion right now, it may need more work as fantasai points out.

00:50:47 [fantasai]

Arron: What I'd like to do is put it up on W3C as an actual editor's draft, so we can start to shape something that works

00:51:02 [fantasai]

plinss: Anybody objecting?

00:51:12 [fantasai]

RESOLVED: Put CSS3 Positioning draft on dev.w3.org

00:51:21 [fantasai]

Arron: That's pretty much it. Please review once it's up

00:51:33 [fantasai]

plinss: Some flexbox issues to get back to?

00:51:37 [fantasai]

TabAtkins: Haven't had time.

00:51:44 [fantasai]

Alex: Directions and alignment; need to ...

00:52:01 [fantasai]

plinss: Meeting closed.

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15:59:55 [tantek]

heading over - ETA 10min

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16:06:18 [bradk]

hello?

16:06:53 [Ms2ger]

Good evening

16:07:24 [bradk]

Is the meeting starting?

16:08:03 [ed]

in a moment

16:08:06 [Ms2ger]

tantek said he'd be there in a couple of minutes

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16:08:24 [plinss_]

we'll be using the #fx channel for today's meeting

16:09:12 [bradk]

Please let me know when there is a skype call ready to connect.

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16:10:36 [hober]

me too :0

16:10:40 [hober]

err, :)

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16:11:57 [tpod]

How was the boat?

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16:12:05 [anne]

meeting is in #fx

16:12:20 [sylvaing]

Anne sank one Microsoft employee in the lake: success

16:12:40 [sylvaing]

Brad, i'm on Skype

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anne: Pls set topic to say #fx

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18:02:59 [fantasai]

dbaron: Is there a way to make it obvious when font-fallback happens? I considered adding Ahem to the fallback list, but it doesn't cover all of Unicode.

18:03:21 [dbaron]

fantasai, we have a new api for determining the fonts that actually got used for a range of text

18:03:39 [dbaron]

fantasai, beyond that, not sure

18:15:37 [hyatt]

when you don't even know the height of your block yet

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19:06:28 [dbaron]

hyatt, well, yesterday I was the only one against it...

19:06:54 [hyatt]

seems like a different layout model to me

19:07:08 [hyatt]

like using left/top seems fine etc.

19:07:20 [hyatt]

but it's not really laying out at the same time a normal positioned object would

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19:07:45 [hyatt]

just trying to understand

19:07:47 [hyatt]

if it's 2-pass

19:07:48 [hyatt]

or

19:07:51 [hyatt]

i dunno

19:08:11 [dbaron]

it's either 2-pass and suboptimal or abitrary-N-pass and correct

19:08:56 [dbaron]

the draft hasn't specified which yet

19:13:00 [fantasai]

:)

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19:20:31 [hyatt]

dbaron: is the expectation that positioned floats affect positioned descendants as well or only the normal flow

19:20:52 [hyatt]

there's some confusing sentence in there about block formatting contexts

19:21:13 [hyatt]

"A positioned-float box intersects with other elements in the same or other block formatting contexts. "

19:21:14 [dbaron]

positioned descendants of what?

19:21:19 [hyatt]

i have no idea what that sentence means

19:21:25 [dbaron]

(That said, my response should probably be: you're asking *me*?)

19:21:29 [hyatt]

"or other block formatting contexts"

19:21:44 [hyatt]

sounds like they expect it to actually affect things other than just your normal flow descendants