thanks for the reply and I enjoyed reading your piece in Home Theatre HiFi but I was particularly interested in the response of Stereophile to the ART System in their role as perhaps the leading English language home audio publication. John Atkinson mentioned commissioning an independent expert which perhaps suggests the product was judged as being "on the edge" of what might be accepted by mainstream audiophiles. This is my interest.

Quote: John Atkinson mentioned commissioning an independent expert which perhaps suggests the product was judged as being "on the edge" of what might be accepted by mainstream audiophiles.

The plan was contingent on a new listening room being built from the ground up and having its acoustics comprehensively measured before adding the Art system. I haven't heard from the engineer concerned for a while. I will check on progress.

1) The devices change the measurements: Objectivists say the changes are too small to hear, subjectivists suddenly endorse measurement data as proof of an audible difference.

2) No measured differences: Objectivists exult in the lask of measurable effect, validating their opinion that these "can't work." Subjectivists claim that they hear things that can't be measured.

3) An effect that is considered big enough to be audible is measured: Objectivists claim the difference is a resonance that is actually rendering the sound of the room 'less accurate.' They call the effect euphonic for some ears, but onjectively at odds with 'accurate sound reproduction.' They make analogies to tubed electronics. Subjectivists 'ooh and awe' at the HUGE measured differences and say they told you so, once again ignoring the irony of the outcome being predetermined for them - it didn't matter if the device's effect could be measured or not.

1) The devices change the measurements: Objectivists say the changes are too small to hear, subjectivists suddenly endorse measurement data as proof of an audible difference.

2) No measured differences: Objectivists exult in the lask of measurable effect, validating their opinion that these "can't work." Subjectivists claim that they hear things that can't be measured.

3) An effect that is considered big enough to be audible is measured: Objectivists claim the difference is a resonance that is actually rendering the sound of the room 'less accurate.' They call the effect euphonic for some ears, but onjectively at odds with 'accurate sound reproduction.' They make analogies to tubed electronics. Subjectivists 'ooh and awe' at the HUGE measured differences and say they told you so, once again ignoring the irony of the outcome being predetermined for them - it didn't matter if the device's effect could be measured or not.

Am I missing any other potential outcomes?

You are good, Buddha.

To be serious for a second, I find that the terms subjectivist and objectivist ultimately obscure what is really going on. They certainly obscure the multiple shades of gray that exist between the seemingly contradictory and often falsely polarized poles of black and white, aka subjectivist and objectivist.

The bottom line is that people, even skeptics such as John Atkinson, hear differences with and without ART. Whether those differences can either be measured or explained using our current level of scientific understanding is certainly something to explore. The ultimate results of that exploration will be interesting, but, in one sense, ultimately beside the point.

By analogy, energy equalled the speed of light squared long before Einstein made his case. Those who categorically deny the reality of those who hear differences reflect a belief system just as subjective as those they attempt to denigrate with the subjectivist label. That's not to say that everyone who hears differences, like everyone who sees Jesus in a splattering of paint on a faded wall, isn't subject to the occasional illusion. But to dismiss someone's reality out of hand without advantage of personal experience is not only unscientific, but downright ridiculous.

I'm not going to do an EW here. If you agree, fine. If you disagree, fine. I've said what I want to say. It is possible for multiple and seemingly contradictory realities to co-exist without the need to bash into oblivion.

>>> "To be serious for a second, I find that the terms subjectivist and objectivist ultimately obscure what is really going on. They certainly obscure the multiple shades of gray that exist between the seemingly contradictory and often falsely polarized poles of black and white, aka subjectivist and objectivist.

The bottom line is that people, even skeptics such as John Atkinson, hear differences with and without ART. Whether those differences can either be measured or explained using our current level of scientific understanding is certainly something to explore." <<<

I could not agree more. I would add to yours and John A's listening experiences with the ART devices those of Paul Messenger who described his experiences thus:-

>>> "The intriguing bit was the placing in and removal from the room of various Acoustic Art treatments from Synergistic Research. A small voice in one ear warned me that this way lay madness, because BOTH ears were making it quite clear that these little steel cups placed in strategic locations were indeed affecting the sound." <<< And I hope, JVS, that the subject CAN be explored more fully. Because there are levels of current scientific understanding which could throw more light on the subject if only people were more willing to explore.

I think what might have triggered John A to state (during the last heated discussion on the ART devices) that he would bring in an audio 'measuring specialist' to investigate the subject of the ART devices more fully was precisely because the majority of the people taking part in that earlier heated discussion were not prepared to acknowledge numerous peoples' subjective experiences !!! I do NOT mean 'accept their experiences outright', I mean acknowledge and then try to find some explanation !!

Your quote, JVS, describing just what happens :->>> "Those who categorically deny the reality of those who hear differences reflect a belief system just as subjective as those they attempt to denigrate with the subjectivist label." <<<

Now, regarding John A's reply :-

>>> "The plan was contingent on a new listening room being built from the ground up and having its acoustics comprehensively measured before adding the Art system. I haven't heard from the engineer concerned for a while. I will check on progress." <<<

I agree with the LOGIC of rgibran's :-

>>> "Oh geez. It that really necessary in order to evaluate these little do-dads?" <<<

IF the ART devices are supposed to work and improve the sound in 'many' different listening rooms with different equipment and playing different music, listened to by different people (as evidenced by numerous reports), then 'waiting' for one specific room to be ready seems illogical !! Although I CAN understand someone like John A thinking "if someone is going to go to all the trouble to do 'measurements', then why not wait for a completely new listening room in which to 'do' the tests ?"

>>> "But to dismiss someone's reality out of hand without advantage of personal experience is not only unscientific, but downright ridiculous." <<<

Of course, JVS, it is unscientific and ridiculous. The majority of the 'sciences' first started from people's experiences and observations !!!!!! Followed by investigation, investigation and yet further investigation, discussion, discussion and yet further discussions !! And, sometimes it was many years before 'proof' emerged sufficient enough to form the many workable scientific principles we now use.

Quote:Now, regarding John A's reply :->>> "The plan was contingent on a new listening room being built from the ground up and having its acoustics comprehensively measured before adding the Art system. I haven't heard from the engineer concerned for a while. I will check on progress." <<<

I agree with the LOGIC of rgibran's :-

>>> "Oh geez. It that really necessary in order to evaluate these little do-dads?" <<<

IF the ART devices are supposed to work and improve the sound in 'many' different listening rooms with different equipment and playing different music, listened to by different people (as evidenced by numerous reports), then 'waiting' for one specific room to be ready seems illogical !! Although I CAN understand someone like John A thinking "if someone is going to go to all the trouble to do 'measurements', then why not wait for a completely new listening room in which to 'do' the tests ?"

A well known friend of mine in the NW recently upgraded his separate, dedicated listening house - yup, that's right, listening house! - employing a skilled contractor to redo all interior walls with some audiophile wall material which was then covered with beautiful maple veneer. This project was extremely expensive and time-consuming, as one might expect, on top of whatever expenses had already been incurred constructing the dedicated house. In the end, the sound was better in certain respects than previously, but not across the board. Now, the race is on to see if he can find out why the project did not solve all of the problems that were assumed to be caused by the "less than ideal" room.

Alas, what is one to do, tear it all down and start all over with a different theory of room acoustics and a different contractor??!

So where does one go from there in the quest for the ideal room? Diffusers, absorbers, Shakti Hallographs, Tube Traps, Dots, Sugar Cubes, Mpingo discs, quartz, pebbles, acoustic discs, the ideal chairs, Skylines, Sonex, Persian rugs, bowls of water, Room Lenses? And when do we know "We're there!?"

The moral of the story is that "building a dedicated room from the ground up" might not be as terrific idea as it sounds as noone seems to be exactly sure what's causing the perceived problems with the sound in the first place, at least not completely, much less what exactly to do about it. Did I mention the remodeling of the walls in the dedicated house was extremely expensive?

Quote:hes sounds like someone who doesn't enjoy music at all, but cares more about the "audiophile" tweakery.

what a horrible way to live.

not jealous at all. wealth and material things never impress me. never have. the guy sounds obsessive, and I know from experience that is a terrible way to live. It is far too easy to focus on the minutiae, the *doesn't matter* in this hobby, but enjoyment comes when you stop worrying about that stuff and just listen.

Quote:hes sounds like someone who doesn't enjoy music at all, but cares more about the "audiophile" tweakery.

what a horrible way to live.

not jealous at all. wealth and material things never impress me. never have. the guy sounds obsessive, and I know from experience that is a terrible way to live. It is far too easy to focus on the minutiae, the *doesn't matter* in this hobby, but enjoyment comes when you stop worrying about that stuff and just listen.

The quest for the absolute sound can be an enjoyable enterprise in and of itself. Appears that you're projecting your own fears, angst and obsessions regarding "all that stuff" onto someone else. If you investigated a little bit, you would find the system in question actually eschews tweaks, so your anti-tweak "observations" pretty much fly out the window.

Quote:The plan was contingent on a new listening room being built from the ground up...

Oh geez. It that really necessary in order to evaluate these little do-dads? What are we talkin' here, pier and beam or slab on grade?

Quote:Good to hear it may still happen

Wouldn't hold my breath. Seems the posturing has begun.

My thoughts on the subject, after waiting for some real results with measurements after months and months are.....they are hoping that no one will ask anymore and the matter will quietly sink into oblivion saving themselves the effort and embarrasment when the results show no difference at all. So yeah, why do these little do dads require a custom built room to measure them in? Anyone including JA with all his measurement equipment could have set up and compared these things in less than 30 minutes and posted the graphs here.

Quote:I dont just mean your type of tweaks...i mean building a dedicated room and all that

It's not for everyone, that's true.

Are recording studios and symphony halls built from the ground up?

Shannon Dickson, author of the vibration isolation manifesto Bad Vibes in Stereophile back in 1995, built a dedicated house in Hawaii. Pretty sure he told me the structure was going to be positioned on very large seismic isolators. Now, that is a good idea!

"The more you have in the beginning the better off you will be in the end." - Law of Minimization

Quote:Are recording studios and symphony halls built from the ground up most recording studios? No. All the best ones, the most legendary ones...were seeing use as something else before being converted...

Exactly, they were converted - from the ground up! Like the dedicated structure in the OP. Word mincer!

Quote: Pretty sure he told me the structure was going to be positioned on very large seismic isolators. Now, that is a good idea! yes, if you are a douchebag.

Zwei Dumme, ein Gedanke.

Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment, dumbass.

Quote:"you have got to have smelt a lot of mule shit before you can sing like a hillbilly"- Hank Williams Sr.

Hey, you got me all wrong, Bubbha. If I may be so bold, I know my customer base pretty well and this forum ain't exactly ripe for the plucking, if you know what I mean. Besides, I'm not trying to set the world on fire, just start a flame in a few hearts.

Quote:Hey, you got me all wrong, Bubbha. If I may be so bold, I know my customer base pretty well and this forum ain't exactly ripe for the plucking, if you know what I mean. Besides, I'm not trying to set the world on fire, just start a flame in a few hearts.

Quote:Hey, you got me all wrong, Bubbha. If I may be so bold, I know my customer base pretty well and this forum ain't exactly ripe for the plucking, if you know what I mean. Besides, I'm not trying to set the world on fire, just start a flame in a few hearts.

Naah, I don't think so.

Listen, Mr. Bluster, if you're going to continue your trolling and sniping campaign, could you at least endeavor to make your posts a wee bit more entertaining? You know, rude photos, ennuendo, perhaps an amusing anecdote or two.

Quote:Hey, you got me all wrong, Bubbha. If I may be so bold, I know my customer base pretty well and this forum ain't exactly ripe for the plucking, if you know what I mean. Besides, I'm not trying to set the world on fire, just start a flame in a few hearts.

Naah, I don't think so.

Listen, Mr. Bluster, if you're going to continue your trolling and sniping campaign, could you at least endeavor to make your posts a wee bit more entertaining? You know, rude photos, ennuendo, perhaps an amusing anecdote or two.

I would chime in and help but you seem to be able to show you're own opinion of your customer base and products pretty well all on your own

Quote:I would chime in and help but you seem to be able to show you're own opinion of your customer base and products pretty well all on your own

Apparently you have some sort of reading comprehension disorder. Obviously I was referring to snippy little trolls like yourself. If I need your help I'll ring a little bell.

Apparently you have a topic comprehension disorder.You're the one that opened his mouth and then stepped in it too so don't go blaming me if you set yourself up. I thought perhaps you might have something to contribute to the topic at hand namely the magic bowls but I see that any discussion you are involved in turns into a pissing contest. The only help you need is knowing when to stop being a jerk.

Quote:Apparently you have a topic comprehension disorder.You're the one that opened his mouth and then stepped in it too so don't go blaming me if you set yourself up. I thought perhaps you might have something to contribute to the topic at hand namely the magic bowls but I see that any discussion you are involved in turns into a pissing contest. The only help you need is knowing when to stop being a jerk.

I don't think he has a topic comprehension disorder, like some others here, he's simply here to divert, distract, or otherwise destroy dialog in situations where he doesn't wish dialog to take place.

Quote:Apparently you have a topic comprehension disorder.You're the one that opened his mouth and then stepped in it too so don't go blaming me if you set yourself up. I thought perhaps you might have something to contribute to the topic at hand namely the magic bowls but I see that any discussion you are involved in turns into a pissing contest. The only help you need is knowing when to stop being a jerk.

You're forgetting one very important thing, my pointy headed little scamp. You don't actually have anything to contribute to this thread, uh, except for trolling. Not even entertaining trolling, just run of the mill trolling, the kind that's been done to death already.

Mr. Jerk isn't even worth quoting so I'll forgo the pain of having to let others see his stupid posts in duplicate He thinks I'm a troll while his posts are soooooooooo full of wisdom. No wonder this place is losing credibility. Just sad to see people acting like jerks. What's his problem? I guess JJ hit it in the head with the LULZ excuse. Anyways I won't be replying to JERK anymore. Have fun talking to yourself and posting your "funny" pictures. Jerk.

Quote:Mr. Jerk isn't even worth quoting so I'll forgo the pain of having to let others see his stupid posts in duplicate He thinks I'm a troll while his posts are soooooooooo full of wisdom. No wonder this place is losing credibility. Just sad to see people acting like jerks. What's his problem? I guess JJ hit it in the head with the LULZ excuse. Anyways I won't be replying to JERK anymore. Have fun talking to yourself and posting your "funny" pictures. Jerk.