What about Vernon at the player-run practices??

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

It was "Zeigler or any other veteran WR." Through VD into the mix as I believe he should be there as well and he needs work. In informal practices the players talk about the routes and work out scenarios with the QBs. They can watch and critique each other, if their egos are in check.

Crabtree is a young guy who can learn from almost any decent, hardworking vet. Not a criticism as most two year players are in this position but coming from the TTech offense did not get him NFL ready.

As far as those who beleive Smith can't teach and learns playbooks slowly...what on earth are you thinking? Smith is a very bright guy and no doubt learns the playbook quickly, he just needs time to actually work through his plays in order to be comfortable. Some athletes are uncomfortable until they know the whole playbook and also know their team mates tendencies.

Smith is analytical, which does get in his way. But then, what coaches have had the brain power to help him? Norv...anyone else other than mad Martz when Smith was injured?

Originally posted by RichmondPete:You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

No, effectiveness is dependent on trust that results from good coaching and players spending time developing a rapport. Many WR/QB combinations have not meshed because one or the other did not value practice. Montana speaks often of plays like "The Catch" that seemed incredible but had been practiced a thousand times.

Lets not bring the catch or Joe Montana into this. Joe Montana took an ugly Chiefs team to an AFC title game in his first year with the team. You think he had that much "chemistry" with Chiefs WO's?

Not valuing practice and not having chemistry are two completely different things.
You can value practice and still not have good chemistry with your QB

I think you are over romanticizing the relationship between a QB and a WO. Good chemistry will always help, but the bottom line is they need to practice the plays that will be run with a coach coaching them. No amount of chemistry will replace that.

Yes, I think the first thing Monatana did when he arrived in KC was to build chemistry by calling the WRs and TEs and start practicing the playbook. Why? Because he knows football and understood the necessity.

As far as coach versus player led practices...didn't know there was a choice right now.

The key to your argument is that the two players, QB and WR, know what they are doing. In Crabtree's case he has not demonstrated good route sense and TTech did not run traditional routes. So yes, he would benefit by being out there.

Montana had elite accuracy, vision and football IQ, those things are all more important than chemistry with your receivers. Philip Rivers led the league in passing and his 2 top receivers did not play most of the year. Peyton Manning did the same thing. Tom Brady led the pats to a 14 and 2 record with 2 rookie tight ends as his primary pass catchers.

As far as practice, there is a choice, practice on your own. His employer is not paying his insurance. He doesn't owe anyone 1 minute of organized practice right now. If your boss cut off your paycheck and insurance would you be at home still getting work done for your company? If you say yes you are the ultimate push over.

Please spare me your arm chair analysis of Crabtree's "route sense". They are just out there throwing the damn ball around, you actually think that players are going to improve at these sessions? At the NFL level, coaching reflects the play of the players more than anything else. No coaches will be present at these practices, if an individual player decides it is wiser to wait out the labor dispute before risking injury from unsupervised practice I think they have that right.

Put Crabtree on the Patriots and he is a perennial pro bowler. Why? Because he would have a QB with elite skills, which is what successful teams and WO's need.

Spare me from your disparaging comments. You have an opinion that differs from mine, that's OK.

Yes, players tend to actually know what the routes are and if Crabtree gets confused he can turn to Zeigler (or any other veteran WR) and ask for help. Route running--we all watched Crabtree cut behind CBs and Ss last year instead of in front of them to shield the ball. He did not do that in college but quite the opposite. Why?

The key is to develop chemistry, not do what they would do under a normal camp situation. They were better together the last half of the season than the first half. Why, if practice and time together is as useless as you indicate. Why do the great QBs stay out after training camp practices to work with all their receivers? In case one gets injured. Not difficult to understand. I want the optimum from Crabtree not just the league minimum. I want a super bowl, not just better ratings.

As far as injuries go, if you can show me where practicing on your own is safer than practicing in a group fine. Haven't seen any reasonable argument on that front.

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

Sorry Pete You are drawing @ straws here. We all know that there will be a new CBA. there is no way they allow a BILLION 4 business not make its money So yes Crabs should be doing whatever he needs to be doing to help this season out. Your attitude is that of someone that loves to wait until the ast minute to get ready. Does it matter if he was in Texas working out and got hurt? no so why not be out there with your team. ESP since you are in the CITY. He doesn't even have to come every day but say hello or something.

Sorry no. The owners opted out of the CBA everyone was happy with and locked the players out of the facility and cut off their insurance. Out of dignity I wouldn't even talk to the local media until it was resolved. Not everyone is a fan pleaser like Alex Smith.

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

It was "Zeigler or any other veteran WR." Through VD into the mix as I believe he should be there as well and he needs work. In informal practices the players talk about the routes and work out scenarios with the QBs. They can watch and critique each other, if their egos are in check.

Crabtree is a young guy who can learn from almost any decent, hardworking vet. Not a criticism as most two year players are in this position but coming from the TTech offense did not get him NFL ready.

As far as those who beleive Smith can't teach and learns playbooks slowly...what on earth are you thinking? Smith is a very bright guy and no doubt learns the playbook quickly, he just needs time to actually work through his plays in order to be comfortable. Some athletes are uncomfortable until they know the whole playbook and also know their team mates tendencies.

Smith is analytical, which does get in his way. But then, what coaches have had the brain power to help him? Norv...anyone else other than mad Martz when Smith was injured?

He was not that good under Norv. Barely scratching at average, decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks. Crabtree has little to learn from Zeigler or Vernon Davis in an unsupervised throwing session. Its a matter of valuing time. Is being out their going to make him a better player? I can tell you right now the answer is no. This is why we have sucked for the past 6 years. We practiced far more than most other teams under Singletary and got worse game by game, and Crabtree's play has not improved since he came into the league. Why? Because the practices were inefficient and the coaches did not know what they were doing.

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

It was "Zeigler or any other veteran WR." Through VD into the mix as I believe he should be there as well and he needs work. In informal practices the players talk about the routes and work out scenarios with the QBs. They can watch and critique each other, if their egos are in check.

Crabtree is a young guy who can learn from almost any decent, hardworking vet. Not a criticism as most two year players are in this position but coming from the TTech offense did not get him NFL ready.

As far as those who beleive Smith can't teach and learns playbooks slowly...what on earth are you thinking? Smith is a very bright guy and no doubt learns the playbook quickly, he just needs time to actually work through his plays in order to be comfortable. Some athletes are uncomfortable until they know the whole playbook and also know their team mates tendencies.

Smith is analytical, which does get in his way. But then, what coaches have had the brain power to help him? Norv...anyone else other than mad Martz when Smith was injured?

He was not that good under Norv. Barely scratching at average, decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks. Crabtree has little to learn from Zeigler or Vernon Davis in an unsupervised throwing session. Its a matter of valuing time. Is being out their going to make him a better player? I can tell you right now the answer is no. This is why we have sucked for the past 6 years. We practiced far more than most other teams under Singletary and got worse game by game, and Crabtree's play has not improved since he came into the league. Why? Because the practices were inefficient and the coaches did not know what they were doing.

Many of us are prone to generalizing but "decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks" is a bit over the top. Very few rookies start at all, and the ones that do are usually on bad teams.

Just for fun lets look at another QB in his 1st, 4th & 8th years with the 9ers:

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

It was "Zeigler or any other veteran WR." Through VD into the mix as I believe he should be there as well and he needs work. In informal practices the players talk about the routes and work out scenarios with the QBs. They can watch and critique each other, if their egos are in check.

Crabtree is a young guy who can learn from almost any decent, hardworking vet. Not a criticism as most two year players are in this position but coming from the TTech offense did not get him NFL ready.

As far as those who beleive Smith can't teach and learns playbooks slowly...what on earth are you thinking? Smith is a very bright guy and no doubt learns the playbook quickly, he just needs time to actually work through his plays in order to be comfortable. Some athletes are uncomfortable until they know the whole playbook and also know their team mates tendencies.

Smith is analytical, which does get in his way. But then, what coaches have had the brain power to help him? Norv...anyone else other than mad Martz when Smith was injured?

He was not that good under Norv. Barely scratching at average, decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks. Crabtree has little to learn from Zeigler or Vernon Davis in an unsupervised throwing session. Its a matter of valuing time. Is being out their going to make him a better player? I can tell you right now the answer is no. This is why we have sucked for the past 6 years. We practiced far more than most other teams under Singletary and got worse game by game, and Crabtree's play has not improved since he came into the league. Why? Because the practices were inefficient and the coaches did not know what they were doing.

Many of us are prone to generalizing but "decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks" is a bit over the top. Very few rookies start at all, and the ones that do are usually on bad teams.

Just for fun lets look at another QB in his 1st, 4th & 8th years with the 9ers:

Did you just compare QB stats from the late 70's early 80's to the late 2000's? Really?

You can't just take stats from one era and apply them to another era. You have to compare said player to his PEERS. David Garrard has had better seasons than most of the QB's in the HOF....but compared to his peers he's a middle of the road QB.

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

It was "Zeigler or any other veteran WR." Through VD into the mix as I believe he should be there as well and he needs work. In informal practices the players talk about the routes and work out scenarios with the QBs. They can watch and critique each other, if their egos are in check.

Crabtree is a young guy who can learn from almost any decent, hardworking vet. Not a criticism as most two year players are in this position but coming from the TTech offense did not get him NFL ready.

As far as those who beleive Smith can't teach and learns playbooks slowly...what on earth are you thinking? Smith is a very bright guy and no doubt learns the playbook quickly, he just needs time to actually work through his plays in order to be comfortable. Some athletes are uncomfortable until they know the whole playbook and also know their team mates tendencies.

Smith is analytical, which does get in his way. But then, what coaches have had the brain power to help him? Norv...anyone else other than mad Martz when Smith was injured?

He was not that good under Norv. Barely scratching at average, decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks. Crabtree has little to learn from Zeigler or Vernon Davis in an unsupervised throwing session. Its a matter of valuing time. Is being out their going to make him a better player? I can tell you right now the answer is no. This is why we have sucked for the past 6 years. We practiced far more than most other teams under Singletary and got worse game by game, and Crabtree's play has not improved since he came into the league. Why? Because the practices were inefficient and the coaches did not know what they were doing.

Many of us are prone to generalizing but "decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks" is a bit over the top. Very few rookies start at all, and the ones that do are usually on bad teams.

Just for fun lets look at another QB in his 1st, 4th & 8th years with the 9ers:

Did you just compare QB stats from the late 70's early 80's to the late 2000's? Really?

You can't just take stats from one era and apply them to another era. You have to compare said player to his PEERS. David Garrard has had better seasons than most of the QB's in the HOF....but compared to his peers he's a middle of the road QB.

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

It was "Zeigler or any other veteran WR." Through VD into the mix as I believe he should be there as well and he needs work. In informal practices the players talk about the routes and work out scenarios with the QBs. They can watch and critique each other, if their egos are in check.

Crabtree is a young guy who can learn from almost any decent, hardworking vet. Not a criticism as most two year players are in this position but coming from the TTech offense did not get him NFL ready.

As far as those who beleive Smith can't teach and learns playbooks slowly...what on earth are you thinking? Smith is a very bright guy and no doubt learns the playbook quickly, he just needs time to actually work through his plays in order to be comfortable. Some athletes are uncomfortable until they know the whole playbook and also know their team mates tendencies.

Smith is analytical, which does get in his way. But then, what coaches have had the brain power to help him? Norv...anyone else other than mad Martz when Smith was injured?

He was not that good under Norv. Barely scratching at average, decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks. Crabtree has little to learn from Zeigler or Vernon Davis in an unsupervised throwing session. Its a matter of valuing time. Is being out their going to make him a better player? I can tell you right now the answer is no. This is why we have sucked for the past 6 years. We practiced far more than most other teams under Singletary and got worse game by game, and Crabtree's play has not improved since he came into the league. Why? Because the practices were inefficient and the coaches did not know what they were doing.

Many of us are prone to generalizing but "decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks" is a bit over the top. Very few rookies start at all, and the ones that do are usually on bad teams.

Just for fun lets look at another QB in his 1st, 4th & 8th years with the 9ers:

Did you just compare QB stats from the late 70's early 80's to the late 2000's? Really?

You can't just take stats from one era and apply them to another era. You have to compare said player to his PEERS. David Garrard has had better seasons than most of the QB's in the HOF....but compared to his peers he's a middle of the road QB.

That was my point. People keep comparing Smith to QBs in totally different circumstances and it is rediculous. Manning has an offense build around him, had a very good line until recently, wonderful hardworking receivers and great coaching. Is it any wonder his talent then allowed him to excel?

Smith came into the league with no receivers, a very mediocre to bad line and some of the most inept coaches in history. But, while you want to give Crabtree a break, you do not care to consider Smith's circumstances seriously. That is my point and thank you for getting it.

Edit: Comparing to peers is fine as long as you consider surrounding team quality.

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

It was "Zeigler or any other veteran WR." Through VD into the mix as I believe he should be there as well and he needs work. In informal practices the players talk about the routes and work out scenarios with the QBs. They can watch and critique each other, if their egos are in check.

Crabtree is a young guy who can learn from almost any decent, hardworking vet. Not a criticism as most two year players are in this position but coming from the TTech offense did not get him NFL ready.

As far as those who beleive Smith can't teach and learns playbooks slowly...what on earth are you thinking? Smith is a very bright guy and no doubt learns the playbook quickly, he just needs time to actually work through his plays in order to be comfortable. Some athletes are uncomfortable until they know the whole playbook and also know their team mates tendencies.

Smith is analytical, which does get in his way. But then, what coaches have had the brain power to help him? Norv...anyone else other than mad Martz when Smith was injured?

He was not that good under Norv. Barely scratching at average, decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks. Crabtree has little to learn from Zeigler or Vernon Davis in an unsupervised throwing session. Its a matter of valuing time. Is being out their going to make him a better player? I can tell you right now the answer is no. This is why we have sucked for the past 6 years. We practiced far more than most other teams under Singletary and got worse game by game, and Crabtree's play has not improved since he came into the league. Why? Because the practices were inefficient and the coaches did not know what they were doing.

Many of us are prone to generalizing but "decent rookies come in and have better years than 2600 yards and 16 tds with 16 picks" is a bit over the top. Very few rookies start at all, and the ones that do are usually on bad teams.

Just for fun lets look at another QB in his 1st, 4th & 8th years with the 9ers:

Did you just compare QB stats from the late 70's early 80's to the late 2000's? Really?

You can't just take stats from one era and apply them to another era. You have to compare said player to his PEERS. David Garrard has had better seasons than most of the QB's in the HOF....but compared to his peers he's a middle of the road QB.

That was my point. People keep comparing Smith to QBs in totally different circumstances and it is rediculous. Manning has an offense build around him, had a very good line until recently, wonderful hardworking receivers and great coaching. Is it any wonder his talent then allowed him to excel?

Smith came into the league with no receivers, a very mediocre to bad line and some of the most inept coaches in history. But, while you want to give Crabtree a break, you do not care to consider Smith's circumstances seriously. That is my point and thank you for getting it.

Edit: Comparing to peers is fine as long as you consider surrounding team quality.

Alex has a lot of quality around him. I don't compare him to the Mannings and the Bradys of the world.... that's not fair.

But I will compare him to the Ortons, Bradfords, Cutlers, Garrards, etc...and Alex is far behind those guys.

Contrary to popular belief, Alex has a lot of talent around him. And please cool it with the "most inept coaches in history" bit. I mean, they weren't that great but Sing and Nolan are nowhere near the most inept coaches in history. Seems like Alex's supporters try so hard to discredit everyone around him in order to create excuses for him and that's what annoys me the most.

Nolan managed a 7-9 season and Sing managed a 8-8 season with bottom tier QB play yet they're the most inept coaches in history? They're not good, but lets put things in perspective here.

Yes, Smith didn't come in the league with the greatest team, but so did many other QB's who weren't afforded 7 seasons to prove themselves. Frankly, many QB's came into far worse situations and have been discarded without a single excuse made (Jamarcus, Carr, Couch, Campbell, etc)...so why should Alex be treated any differently?

As far as giving Crabtree a break and not Smith. You really think if Crabtree was going into his 6th year averaging 50 catches, 750 yards and 6 TD's a year I'd be cool with him being our #1 receiver?

Frankly, Crabtree has had 2 fairly good seasons. Compare him to the elite receivers in teh league's first 2 seasons and Crabtree is near the top of the list. Alex has never even scratched the surface of being even decent. Skilled position players do not get a 6 year mulligan for poor play. That only happens in San Francisco for whatever reason.

Alex has a lot of quality around him. I don't compare him to the Mannings and the Bradys of the world.... that's not fair.

But I will compare him to the Ortons, Bradfords, Cutlers, Garrards, etc...and Alex is far behind those guys.

Contrary to popular belief, Alex has a lot of talent around him. And please cool it with the "most inept coaches in history" bit. I mean, they weren't that great but Sing and Nolan are nowhere near the most inept coaches in history. Seems like Alex's supporters try so hard to discredit everyone around him in order to create excuses for him and that's what annoys me the most.

Nolan managed a 7-9 season and Sing managed a 8-8 season with bottom tier QB play yet they're the most inept coaches in history? They're not good, but lets put things in perspective here.

Yes, Smith didn't come in the league with the greatest team, but so did many other QB's who weren't afforded 7 seasons to prove themselves. Frankly, many QB's came into far worse situations and have been discarded without a single excuse made (Jamarcus, Carr, Couch, Campbell, etc)...so why should Alex be treated any differently?

As far as giving Crabtree a break and not Smith. You really think if Crabtree was going into his 6th year averaging 50 catches, 750 yards and 6 TD's a year I'd be cool with him being our #1 receiver?

Frankly, Crabtree has had 2 fairly good seasons. Compare him to the elite receivers in teh league's first 2 seasons and Crabtree is near the top of the list. Alex has never even scratched the surface of being even decent. Skilled position players do not get a 6 year mulligan for poor play. That only happens in San Francisco for whatever reason.

Quality WRs who played with Smith? Isaac Bruce comes to mind, in his 15th and 16 seasons. Antonio Bryant if he hadn't self destructed (Smith's fault?).

Other quality players? Gore and VD are really good players--particularly Gore. VD has come on the past two years and Smith has had a very good rapport with him. OLinemen who have excelled? No. Other RBs or FBs of note? No. So knock off the "lot of quality around him" nonsense.

Nolan and Singletary are among the most inept coaches in NFL history. Without Smith they win maybe two games a season. See how that works in reverse? Seriously, I can't think of a Coach worse than Singletary. Go back over the history of the 49er coaches and find one worse than Singletary or Nolan. Even the guys Joe Thomas brought in were not as clueless offensively. For gods sake, Nolan goaded him into playing with a broken shoulder! Great coach!

I like Crabtree so would just point out that while you think it unfair for posters to point out his short arming and balls bouncing off his hands as a negative, you should be equally as blind with Smith. I have made many comments about Smith's shortcomings, I just do not take them to represent his overall ability. None of us knows if Smith can rise to the occasion because if there was ever a perfect storm of team ineptitude it has been the 9ers over his career.

If Harbaugh can't get the best out of Smith I will doubt he can be turned around...unless Norv Turner trades for him.

Alex has a lot of quality around him. I don't compare him to the Mannings and the Bradys of the world.... that's not fair.

But I will compare him to the Ortons, Bradfords, Cutlers, Garrards, etc...and Alex is far behind those guys.

Contrary to popular belief, Alex has a lot of talent around him. And please cool it with the "most inept coaches in history" bit. I mean, they weren't that great but Sing and Nolan are nowhere near the most inept coaches in history. Seems like Alex's supporters try so hard to discredit everyone around him in order to create excuses for him and that's what annoys me the most.

Nolan managed a 7-9 season and Sing managed a 8-8 season with bottom tier QB play yet they're the most inept coaches in history? They're not good, but lets put things in perspective here.

Yes, Smith didn't come in the league with the greatest team, but so did many other QB's who weren't afforded 7 seasons to prove themselves. Frankly, many QB's came into far worse situations and have been discarded without a single excuse made (Jamarcus, Carr, Couch, Campbell, etc)...so why should Alex be treated any differently?

As far as giving Crabtree a break and not Smith. You really think if Crabtree was going into his 6th year averaging 50 catches, 750 yards and 6 TD's a year I'd be cool with him being our #1 receiver?

Frankly, Crabtree has had 2 fairly good seasons. Compare him to the elite receivers in teh league's first 2 seasons and Crabtree is near the top of the list. Alex has never even scratched the surface of being even decent. Skilled position players do not get a 6 year mulligan for poor play. That only happens in San Francisco for whatever reason.

Quality WRs who played with Smith? Isaac Bruce comes to mind, in his 15th and 16 seasons. Antonio Bryant if he hadn't self destructed (Smith's fault?).

Other quality players? Gore and VD are really good players--particularly Gore. VD has come on the past two years and Smith has had a very good rapport with him. OLinemen who have excelled? No. Other RBs or FBs of note? No. So knock off the "lot of quality around him" nonsense.

Nolan and Singletary are among the most inept coaches in NFL history. Without Smith they win maybe two games a season. See how that works in reverse? Seriously, I can't think of a Coach worse than Singletary. Go back over the history of the 49er coaches and find one worse than Singletary or Nolan. Even the guys Joe Thomas brought in were not as clueless offensively. For gods sake, Nolan goaded him into playing with a broken shoulder! Great coach!

I like Crabtree so would just point out that while you think it unfair for posters to point out his short arming and balls bouncing off his hands as a negative, you should be equally as blind with Smith. I have made many comments about Smith's shortcomings, I just do not take them to represent his overall ability. None of us knows if Smith can rise to the occasion because if there was ever a perfect storm of team ineptitude it has been the 9ers over his career.

If Harbaugh can't get the best out of Smith I will doubt he can be turned around...unless Norv Turner trades for him.

There you go downplaying everyone.

The hell are you talking about talent at the backup RB and FB position. Are you serious? How many teams have 2 top flight RB's let alone 1. Since when did a FB figure into solid QB play? WTF does a FB have to do with QBing? LOL @ you talking about the line. Larry Allen, Joe Staley, Heitman, Iupati, etc...yea all scrubs.

Alex from his 2nd year onward had talent around him. Antonio Bryant played well. He put up 1000+ yards before he arrived to SF and after he left. But of course, his poor play has nothing to do with a QB who threw for 1 TD the year before, right? Brandon Lloyd is not a pro bowler but he had talent as well...but I won't even mention him. Then Alex had a top tier RB for virtually his entire career and a beast of a tight end for a good chunk of his career. How many 1st picks got this kind of talent in their first few years? Add to that Alex has had talented receivers. Say what you want about Bruce but he looked pretty damn good with O'Sullivan and Hill throwing him balls. Granted, he was old and I'll let that go. Josh Morgan is talented, Michael Crabtree is talented. Delanie Walker is talented. I mean the talent is there.

Dudes off the street came in and outperformed Alex. Mike Martz assessed the QB situation and picked JT O'Sullivan as the starter and this was BEFORE Alex got hurt. Martz even said Alex was having difficulty in his system.

The hell are you talking about talent at the backup RB and FB position. Are you serious? How many teams have 2 top flight RB's let alone 1. Since when did a FB figure into solid QB play? WTF does a FB have to do with QBing? LOL @ you talking about the line. Larry Allen, Joe Staley, Heitman, Iupati, etc...yea all scrubs.

Alex from his 2nd year onward had talent around him. Antonio Bryant played well. He put up 1000+ yards before he arrived to SF and after he left. But of course, his poor play has nothing to do with a QB who threw for 1 TD the year before, right? Brandon Lloyd is not a pro bowler but he had talent as well...but I won't even mention him. Then Alex had a top tier RB for virtually his entire career and a beast of a tight end for a good chunk of his career. How many 1st picks got this kind of talent in their first few years? Add to that Alex has had talented receivers. Say what you want about Bruce but he looked pretty damn good with O'Sullivan and Hill throwing him balls. Granted, he was old and I'll let that go. Josh Morgan is talented, Michael Crabtree is talented. Delanie Walker is talented. I mean the talent is there.

Dudes off the street came in and outperformed Alex. Mike Martz assessed the QB situation and picked JT O'Sullivan as the starter and this was BEFORE Alex got hurt. Martz even said Alex was having difficulty in his system.

Stop making excuses for a poor player.

Misquoting as a method of argument is admitting defeat. I did not mention back up RBs or FBs. But when Gore is on the bench due to injury or need to rest, who have the 9ers had to help carry the load? Fullbacks never figure in QB play unless they miss a block and allow a sack or fail to slide as an outlet during blitzes. And yes, the good teams tend to be grooming young RBs to take over when necessary, rather than having them find god and guns.

Gore is the one true, unqualified bigtime player on the 9ers offense. The defense has two with Willis and J Smith. The punter should be mentioned but that's about it. Does the team have a first rate return man? No.

You mention several linemen who are talented but they were from various years and did not play as a unit. The line must be a cohesive unit but has not been in the past six to eight years. Players were good playing next to mediocre, next to rookie, next to...Good lines tend to stay together for a while. Allen was on the team for one and a half years, played well, stabilized the line to some degree and then retired. When I say stabilized it means taking it from god awful to OK...not from good to great.

Bruce looked really good when Smith had his broken shoulder. Oh, I forgot, broken shoulders are Alexcuses.

Antonio Bryant was a favorite of mine so I was very disappointed when he self destructed. That was Smith's fault as well? His erratic behavior and one year stay in SF was sad but bears no witness to Smith's ability.

I get that you have a personal stake in hating Smith. I do not. I do wish the 9ers had drafted Rogers as I had hoped but do not spend much time wallowing in self pity.

This site is neither endorsed, nor sponsored by, nor affiliated with San Francisco 49ers or NFL Properties LLC. 49ers is a registered trademark of the San Francisco 49ers LLC. All teams and players mentioned are registered trademarks of the NFL and its respective teams. The use of any team names, words, trademarks, logos or photos have been used for descriptive purposes only. The content and information from other sites is the property of their respective owners. Player and team photos used with permission from USA TODAY Sports Images.