Gah, ive learned alot in the past days regarding anything which has to do with payed consoles, and have come to one easy conclusion. P2W is the same as ones morality.
Player A finds X console to be OP, while Player B finds X console to be oki, but not console Y. On the other hand Player A finds console Y to be perfectly legit, and thinks Player B is stupit for beliving Y console is OP. And hence the forum pvp starts.

So comes the questions: Who is more correct? Who has the last say?

In essence none. No one is more correct or wrong than the other. Its hard to say which console is OP and which is not. Certainly there are some obvious ones which can be deemed OP by the majority, but how will that stop the minority from using it? Nothing, since we cannot enforce said "ban" properly without fighting among ourselves. And that to say is counterproductive. Heck there are even non-purchasable consoles/mods which all can aquire when you start the game, which is FAR more OP then the ones you pay for (read; Tric mines combined with DPB2/3). How will one grade them by OPness?

I myself have always been a proponent for everyone to use whatever they please, no matter how cheesey cause it helps them win. Why on earth other players wants to enforce SUBJECTIVE rules and regulations is beyond me, since said rules are hampering growth, tinkering with new strategies and tactics as well as creating an athmosphere there the old vets are always the "correct" ones. Maybe it too can be because other players doesnt know how to overcome said problem and hence invent rules to deal with them, hell I dont know. Now how arrogant is that? Who are we to enforce rules on players? Sure ive made complaints on certain payed consoles, but I overcome and adapt. I too know perfectly well that players who use cheese stuff is only capable of doing that to win, so that just tells me how crappy they are. Once we overcome that cheese the victory is just SO much sweeter, cause said cheese player(s) will have a hard time developing something new.

But in light of my last mess I will still be diplomatic and try to work out some deal with the rest of the community, so everyones wishes and concerns are brought to the table. Which console can we in consensus agree upon is a tad OP, and which is not. After we can try to enforce them socially and as respectful human beings as good as we can.

Yes, my 2 cents on the issue.

I'd like to ask you a hypothetical question. You are fighting someone with this "cheese". You lose. Now. Are you still better than the player who beat you with the cheese? Or is the player that beat you with the cheese better than you because he played in such a way in which your best moves could not power past it? Is it neither? All this talk is subjective. TSI may of beat QEW two tournaments ago. QEW may of beat TSI last tournament held. Who is better? Neither. Both are extremely skilled and well seasoned fleets. Their tactics as a whole are different. Their philosophy on team tactics, team setup and team execution are polar opposites. But they both excel, adapt, and perform among the best known fleets in their own individual ways.

My point is just because a player has a console on his ship and uses it or a group of players do. It does not define their specific level of skills or their morals. In order to discover the morals behind those consoles you wouldn't look at the players using them. You would look at the developers who allowed them to be patched into the game.

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.

I'd like to ask you a hypothetical question. You are fighting someone with this "cheese". You lose. Now. Are you still better than the player who beat you with the cheese? Or is the player that beat you with the cheese better than you because he played in such a way in which your best moves could not power past it? Is it neither? All this talk is subjective. TSI may of beat QEW two tournaments ago. QEW may of beat TSI last tournament held. Who is better? Neither. Both are extremely skilled and well seasoned fleets. Their tactics as a whole are different. Their philosophy on team tactics, team setup and team execution are polar opposites. But they both excel, adapt, and perform among the best known fleets in their own individual ways.

My point is just because a player has a console on his ship and uses it or a group of players do. It does not define their specific level of skills or their morals. In order to discover the morals behind those consoles you wouldn't look at the players using them. You would look at the developers who allowed them to be patched into the game.

A better player? I lost and thats it. I could have done better, i will improve, i will adapt. Will i use the cheese? Maybe i will, maybe i will not.
As for the morale analogy, i still think it is like that. I would deem grav pulse to be cheese, others would not. I would deem subpsace jump to be perfectly oki, some others would not. So who is more "correct"? Maybe each team as you say have their setups and compositions, but just like consoles it could be considered cheese, as we know that tric mines with DPB is not p2w but still highly... annoying.

But yes, in the end its all Cryptics short sighted implentations which is to fault.

Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!

Dropping the phrase "Pay2Win" would help a lot. It doesn't really describe the phenomenon that people mean when they say it any more. (STO is heavily monetized, but many of the worst culprits are "free" and many expensive items are middling clunkers... Gal-X anyone)

I kind of agree here. It really comes down to cheesy builds in the end. I don't believe vent theta is any more cheesy than tric dpb's are and ones a console and ones an ability. It all comes down to game balance. No one is complaining about people using the oberths lame console because its not out of balance with the game. If the bug was a dilithium bought ship, it would still be the most powerful escort in the game and therefore be slightly OP (or extremely Op in some ppls opinion). It's balance that we crave, and its balance that cryptic starves us of. It's been said many times that this is a pve game with pvp just kind of thrown on top. It's a simple conclusion that has repeatably explained the history of pvp in this game, and while there are many more dynamic explanations as to why pvp sucks so hard right now in this game, it's usually the simplest explanation that cuts to the core of the problem IMO.

When I first joined 7th Core I was fortunate enough to play with who could arguably have been the Twins of Aytanhi, Mew, Mai Kai, Faithborn, and Era. We had Eric Carter, Kek, Nick, Austin, and Ellie. There was also Alex, Skye, Max, Chakot'e and couple others. It was unfortunate that just as I was learning to start to make any kind of real progress with my builds our best captains at the time decided to leave the game behind. TSI has been fortunate to have the same group of awesome players I missed out on the oppurtunity to play with when Faithborn asked me if I wanted to join the 182nd.

Darksamus and I decided after being the only most active captains left in the fleet that we would do what we could to keep 7th Core going. And we've struggled ever since. Me especially since STO is not only my first MMO but my first Star Trek game. But to finally answer your question yes. 7th Core is now Nova Core. And unless that original team of awesome players decided to come back and not join us. I'm hoping to recreate whatever magic that original 7th Core team had with the new name.

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.

But in light of my last mess I will still be diplomatic and try to work out some deal with the rest of the community, so everyones wishes and concerns are brought to the table. Which console can we in consensus agree upon is a tad OP, and which is not. After we can try to enforce them socially and as respectful human beings as good as we can.

Yes, my 2 cents on the issue.

your last mess? you mean a fourm post about lame crap"? i seen nothing wrong with it but some 1 that was frustrated. noting wrong in it. its the whole reason people try to band together and not abuse the lame crap ingame. so that way everyone can have fun and win/lose to a game of player skill. people were mad at tsi for using broken stuff like faw,ss csv3 ect. only thing that made it worse for you guys using it was because broken/op stuff in the hands of really good players makes it that much worse.

when very bad players use broken stuff in ques for that op edge causes greif and no fun in ques. we see this at this moment with FvK. just trying to get a pop for pvp on kink side takes ages. do you know why? leach,gp,aa. now its even worse, leach,gp,aa,ams. and with sob and nova core being the no skilled players they can be, lol stomp pugs and roll team that try as hard as they can while playing clean. trip can come here with a little hissy fit all he wants and make it about himself. sorry im not going to fall for that whine crap of his. atm sob and nova core is a huge reason for people that tryed pvp for the first time and never look back. you guys can make all the cop outs you want and say cryptic put it in game dont fault us. its a cop out. if you suck this bad that you need to resort to console then blame yourself. better yet blame yourself for the console on your ship. its not cryptic fault, you made your own choice.

and trip, still waiting for you to pm me for that 1v1. ill even extend an invite to my ts. ill never step foot into yours, not after the way my guys were treated in your house. and remember even in your ts i gave full respect in your house. out side of it all bets are off. your fleet is trash. sob abuses consoles but guess what??? they actually have skilled players in there.

I assure you Broken, NONE of my characters needs a console to rip your best ship in half.

lol ok bring it tiny dancer. you and all of nova suck chefs chocolate salty balls. Without your spam, you worst than a pve'er lol

I have yet to see a nova guy not use p2w or spam. Even still I shred your ships made of glass. Thats coming from me Polie, and I am not nearly the player as Broken, Rand, and Yoda. If you want to puff up your chest and measure your epeen thats fine, but be ready to get knocked off your high horse. Hell I am tempted to setup a pvp match with Risa running shuttles just to smoke you. (again) lol