Hikohadon wrote:If there's a QB that's a fantastic talent, that will be a clear upgrade over Weeden, then you do that. Right now, I don't know who that guy is, but he might emerge. Sure as hell ain't Barkley.

Otherwise you take the best pass rusher/corner/defensive playmaker.

Yep.

As I mentioned in the Wrap, you don't go running out of the house screaming hysterically every time you smell smoke.

That's how I am about Weeden. Ain't ready to run into the streets wearing whatever I have on but...

and I don't mean that as an insult (quite the opposite, I felt Timmy got put in a terrible situation here), just the two seems kind of similiar.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Hikohadon wrote:13 more weeks of Weeden to determine what he might be.

Gonna be boring as shit if the conversation is only about him each week.

Maybe there are other topics that we could also enter, such as Do We Have A Decent WR On This Team or How Bad Is The O Line Really?

As soon as he stops overthrowing wide open receivers with 2 steps on the coverage, the story can move onto anyone else.

When life sucks, jump.

Really, who gives a shit?

My life is fantastic, but thanks for the advice. I would think people that spend as much time talking about this team would qualify as giving a shit. Maybe you don't, but you sure have an odd way of showing it.

You want to talk about WR? OK. Probably the best overall group that has been in Cleveland in a long time. With a year of growth, you could see them having the requisite skills at each position to form a real good NFL receiving core. Guys are getting open. You have a #1 type in Gordon if he continues to develop. You have your 2 and/or 3 in Mo and Little. Benjamin has the look to be that burner that can stretch the defense. You have a TE that fits the mold of the way the position is going in today's NFL and you saw him pose matchup problems today.

The offensive line is very good at LT, good at center. The guards have been hit or miss. You have a kid at RT that has been not terrible against some pretty good defenses thus far. Could easily see him being an above average right tackle in another year.

Hikohadon wrote:13 more weeks of Weeden to determine what he might be.

Gonna be boring as shit if the conversation is only about him each week.

Maybe there are other topics that we could also enter, such as Do We Have A Decent WR On This Team or How Bad Is The O Line Really?

As soon as he stops overthrowing wide open receivers with 2 steps on the coverage, the story can move onto anyone else.

When life sucks, jump.

Really, who gives a shit?

My life is fantastic, but thanks for the advice. I would think people that spend as much time talking about this team would qualify as giving a shit. Maybe you don't, but you sure have an odd way of showing it.

You want to talk about WR? OK. Probably the best overall group that has been in Cleveland in a long time. With a year of growth, you could see them having the requisite skills at each position to form a real good NFL receiving core. Guys are getting open. You have a #1 type in Gordon if he continues to develop. You have your 2 and/or 3 in Mo and Little. Benjamin has the look to be that burner that can stretch the defense. You have a TE that fits the mold of the way the position is going in today's NFL and you saw him pose matchup problems today.

The offensive line is very good at LT, good at center. The guards have been hit or miss. You have a kid at RT that has been not terrible against some pretty good defenses thus far. Could easily see him being an above average right tackle in another year.

So I would say offensively, they are in decent shape going forward.

By not "giving a shit", I mean that although I find your assessment of the WR and OL laughable, I don't give enough of a shit to bother arguing it.

Just happy that using pick #22 to make the receivers better, have guys quit crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff our RB, hitting big throws downfield and stopping the dink and dunk shit was a success.

Seriously, it's good that that's all fixed and better. Would have really hated to see the same shit from a different guy.

peeker643 wrote:Just happy that using pick #22 to make the receivers better, have guys quit crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff our RB, hitting big throws downfield and stopping the dink and dunk shit was a success.

Seriously, it's good that that's all fixed and better. Would have really hated to see the same shit from a different guy.

We can now move on to fixing the ancillary issues.

As of now, nothing is fixed. We'll see by the end of the year if that has changed or not. Like last year, there are many problems on this team, and the QB play is one of them. If y'all wanna make it out to be the "only" problem, go on ahead and I'll roll my eyes at you silently, it ain't worth the effort to argue this stupid subject anymore. Frankly I don't care who's right anyway.

peeker643 wrote:Just happy that using pick #22 to make the receivers better, have guys quit crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff our RB, hitting big throws downfield and stopping the dink and dunk shit was a success.

Seriously, it's good that that's all fixed and better. Would have really hated to see the same shit from a different guy.

We can now move on to fixing the ancillary issues.

As of now, nothing is fixed. We'll see by the end of the year if that has changed or not. Like last year, there are many problems on this team, and the QB play is one of them. If y'all wanna make it out to be the "only" problem, go on ahead and I'll roll my eyes at you silently, it ain't worth the effort to argue this stupid subject anymore. Frankly I don't care who's right anyway.

Two of the problems with this team will both be fired at the end of the season. Well, one will "retire" and the other will go back to being an OC for another team.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

peeker643 wrote:Just happy that using pick #22 to make the receivers better, have guys quit crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff our RB, hitting big throws downfield and stopping the dink and dunk shit was a success.

Seriously, it's good that that's all fixed and better. Would have really hated to see the same shit from a different guy.

We can now move on to fixing the ancillary issues.

As of now, nothing is fixed. We'll see by the end of the year if that has changed or not. Like last year, there are many problems on this team, and the QB play is one of them. If y'all wanna make it out to be the "only" problem, go on ahead and I'll roll my eyes at you silently, it ain't worth the effort to argue this stupid subject anymore. Frankly I don't care who's right anyway.

No shit? The greg Little drops are bothersome? The Greg Little Usain Bolt histrionics on 3 yard catches are bothersome? The fact the $2million a year free agent acquisition a couple years ago, Brandon Jackson, is inactive two weeks in a row so Ogbonnaya can play special teams is bothersome?

The fact they can't tackle on defense or open holes (against 8/9 guys) on the OL is bothersome?

We get that. We get that the focal point isn't solely the 22nd pick. None of us say it is.

Just give me a yell when he doesn't look like as big a problem as any of those things that they didn't use the 22nd pick to fix.

Resource allocation. That's always what it's been about with that decision.

That's what it will be about next April with an entirely new crew in charge. No one's calling for 3 to be replaced. No one's blaming him exclusively as that would be foolish. Dude was never the answer. Expecting him to be just because he's been handed the spot makes him no more ready to be successful.

But it's funny that now people want it to be ignored and are bored by it. That ought to stop the talk

peeker643 wrote:Just happy that using pick #22 to make the receivers better, have guys quit crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff our RB, hitting big throws downfield and stopping the dink and dunk shit was a success.

Seriously, it's good that that's all fixed and better. Would have really hated to see the same shit from a different guy.

We can now move on to fixing the ancillary issues.

As of now, nothing is fixed. We'll see by the end of the year if that has changed or not. Like last year, there are many problems on this team, and the QB play is one of them. If y'all wanna make it out to be the "only" problem, go on ahead and I'll roll my eyes at you silently, it ain't worth the effort to argue this stupid subject anymore. Frankly I don't care who's right anyway.

No shit? The greg Little drops are bothersome? The Greg Little Usain Bolt histrionics on 3 yard catches are bothersome? The fact the $2million a year free agent acquisition a couple years ago, Brandon Jackson, is inactive two weeks in a row so Ogbonnaya can play special teams is bothersome?

The fact they can't tackle on defense or open holes (against 8/9 guys) on the OL is bothersome?

We get that. We get that the focal point isn't solely the 22nd pick. None of us say it is.

Just give me a yell when he doesn't look like as big a problem as any of those things that they didn't use the 22nd pick to fix.

Resource allocation. That's always what it's been about with that decision.

That's what it will be about next April with an entirely new crew in charge. No one's calling for 3 to be replaced. No one's blaming him exclusively as that would be foolish. Dude was never the answer. Expecting him to be just because he's been handed the spot makes him no more ready to be successful.

But it's funny that now people want it to be ignored and are bored by it. That ought to stop the talk

peeker643 wrote:Just happy that using pick #22 to make the receivers better, have guys quit crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff our RB, hitting big throws downfield and stopping the dink and dunk shit was a success.

Seriously, it's good that that's all fixed and better. Would have really hated to see the same shit from a different guy.

We can now move on to fixing the ancillary issues.

As of now, nothing is fixed. We'll see by the end of the year if that has changed or not. Like last year, there are many problems on this team, and the QB play is one of them. If y'all wanna make it out to be the "only" problem, go on ahead and I'll roll my eyes at you silently, it ain't worth the effort to argue this stupid subject anymore. Frankly I don't care who's right anyway.

Two of the problems with this team will both be fired at the end of the season. Well, one will "retire" and the other will go back to being an OC for another team.

True dat.

Which is heartening while almost completely invalidating the rest of the season.

peeker643 wrote:Just happy that using pick #22 to make the receivers better, have guys quit crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff our RB, hitting big throws downfield and stopping the dink and dunk shit was a success.

Seriously, it's good that that's all fixed and better. Would have really hated to see the same shit from a different guy.

We can now move on to fixing the ancillary issues.

As of now, nothing is fixed. We'll see by the end of the year if that has changed or not. Like last year, there are many problems on this team, and the QB play is one of them. If y'all wanna make it out to be the "only" problem, go on ahead and I'll roll my eyes at you silently, it ain't worth the effort to argue this stupid subject anymore. Frankly I don't care who's right anyway.

Two of the problems with this team will both be fired at the end of the season. Well, one will "retire" and the other will go back to being an OC for another team.

True dat.

Which is heartening while almost completely invalidating the rest of the season.

I wrote this season off as soon as Haslem bought the team. No way he keeps anybody from this steaming pile of stink. That being said, the QB position still will be an issue with no legit "Franchise" QB on the horizon with next year's draft. I'm just hoping Weeden "gets it" sooner rather than later because a new FO will have no loyalty to anybody on the roster, including Weeden.

That's assuming, of course, he survives Thursday night's game. I have low hopes of that happening.

justmebd wrote:I'm just hoping Weeden "gets it" sooner rather than later because a new FO will have no loyalty to anybody on the roster, including Weeden.

I just hope he actually and ultimately "gets it" in general. Not being a dick as I know it takes a hell of a lot more time than three games and a training camp. But ight now he's swimming in rough waters.

When you wake up propose some subject matter that you are willing to discuss. This is a fan forum. People are going to talk about what fans talk about.

Reggie Hodges has been solid and it's nice that most people haven't heard Christian Yount's name mentioned all season.

We're in solid shape there. Let's see if we can get 3-5 pages on it or make it the focal point of our articles.

That's less interesting than reiterating my reservations about the QB for the 900th time in what way?

I understand this is a fan forum and all y'all can be free to go on and on about it to your heart's content. It will be fascinating to see the 5 page breakdown on the subject each week - at least it will be more interesting than last season where I can't remember any one single Colt performance being worse or better than any other.

In fact, all other topics should be banned so we concentrate on the QB position. It's THAT interesting.

But I am violating my own precept on not giving a shit by actually caring what you people talk about. I hereby reject that stance as heresy. Henceforth, all topics are equally boring.

Hikohadon wrote:That's less interesting than reiterating my reservations about the QB for the 900th time in what way?

I understand this is a fan forum and all y'all can be free to go on and on about it to your heart's content. It will be fascinating to see the 5 page breakdown on the subject each week - at least it will be more interesting than last season where I can't remember any one single Colt performance being worse or better than any other.

In fact, all other topics should be banned so we concentrate on the QB position. It's THAT interesting.

But I am violating my own precept on not giving a shit by actually caring what you people talk about. I hereby reject that stance as heresy. Henceforth, all topics are equally boring.

Now let's see what's on Lifetime...

You keep wanting to compare the situation with last year's QB. I didn't mention Cuddles once in my article or today.

I prefer to compare the situation here to a healthy situation in the league. I understand having a QB who can win it all puts you in the minority of teams in the league and that you look til you find one. Which they'll likely be doing in April again. If we're just trying to be better than Cuddles then things are looking up for Weeden and the organization. Because I don't necessarily think he's worse.

Hikohadon wrote:That's less interesting than reiterating my reservations about the QB for the 900th time in what way?

I understand this is a fan forum and all y'all can be free to go on and on about it to your heart's content. It will be fascinating to see the 5 page breakdown on the subject each week - at least it will be more interesting than last season where I can't remember any one single Colt performance being worse or better than any other.

In fact, all other topics should be banned so we concentrate on the QB position. It's THAT interesting.

But I am violating my own precept on not giving a shit by actually caring what you people talk about. I hereby reject that stance as heresy. Henceforth, all topics are equally boring.

Now let's see what's on Lifetime...

You keep wanting to compare the situation with last year's QB. I didn't mention Cuddles once in my article or today.

I prefer to compare the situation here to a healthy situation in the league. I understand having a QB who can win it all puts you in the minority of teams in the league and that you look til you find one. Which they'll likely be doing in April again. If we're just trying to be better than Cuddles then things are looking up for Weeden and the organization. Because I don't necessarily think he's worse.

That wasn't my point at all bringing Cuddles up, simply pointing out that he didn't bring the roller coaster ride. You knew he'd be meh and then he'd go right out and be just that. Weeden's performances have been memorable at least, which is in no way a conveyance of any kind of support for Weeden or his performances.

Hikohadon wrote:That wasn't my point at all bringing Cuddles up, simply pointing out that he didn't bring the roller coaster ride. You knew he'd be meh and then he'd go right out and be just that. Weeden's performances have been memorable at least, which is in no way a conveyance of any kind of support for Weeden or his performances.

If you want memorable you should hand me the reins of that offense.

I'll give you memorable. Lighting the head coach on fire during a timeout in which he calls a draw play as the clock winds down is not something that would be easily forgotten.

Seems that's the perspective of this team for years: go with meh and feh, hope that the defense/running game can be functional, and eke out wins. Takes a risk to go for the WTFBBQ pick, and aside from 2007/2008 and this year, we've avoided it.

After 3 games, I never know what to expect from #3. At least there's a chance that the lights go on, because he throws a pretty pass when he steps up and looks down field. I think the fear of fumbling/throwing a pick is hampering his ability to step up in the pocket and make the throws he's capable of, though. There's not many throws he's taken in the last 2 games where I said, "Why the FUCK is he throwing it there?" (sans a few checkdowns yesterday)

With DA, as soon as he got a 3-4 second count in the pocket, you knew he was whipping it into double coverage. With Weeden, more often than not, he makes the correct read.....he's just missing on some of them. He's just buckling the second he smells a pass rush. (Rest assured the Ravens are going to be 6" up his butt every snap, Thursday)

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.

Gradysmanldy wrote:Seems that's the perspective of this team for years: go with meh and feh, hope that the defense/running game can be functional, and eke out wins. Takes a risk to go for the WTFBBQ pick, and aside from 2007/2008 and this year, we've avoided it.

After 3 games, I never know what to expect from #3. At least there's a chance that the lights go on, because he throws a pretty pass when he steps up and looks down field. I think the fear of fumbling/throwing a pick is hampering his ability to step up in the pocket and make the throws he's capable of, though. There's not many throws he's taken in the last 2 games where I said, "Why the FUCK is he throwing it there?" (sans a few checkdowns yesterday)

With DA, as soon as he got a 3-4 second count in the pocket, you knew he was whipping it into double coverage. With Weeden, more often than not, he makes the correct read.....he's just missing on some of them. He's just buckling the second he smells a pass rush. (Rest assured the Ravens are going to be 6" up his butt every snap, Thursday)

It's not just game to game, it's within games too.

I'm sure it helps that Shurmur & Co. have been pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options into his head rather than Thread The Needle.

I'm sure it helps that Shurmur & Co. have been pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options into his head rather than Thread The Needle.

Saw that all day yesterday. Weeds was more than happy through 3 quarters to just tuck the ball and fall vs. step up and rip cord downfield. Not sure how much of that is receivers not getting open vs. risk aversion. The checkdowns to covered RB's/WR's at the line was infuriating.

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.

I'm sure it helps that Shurmur & Co. have been pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options into his head rather than Thread The Needle.

Saw that all day yesterday. Weeds was more than happy through 3 quarters to just tuck the ball and fall vs. step up and rip cord downfield. Not sure how much of that is receivers not getting open vs. risk aversion. The checkdowns to covered RB's/WR's at the line was infuriating.

This begs the question that if it's Shurmur & Co. "pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options" to Weeden, was Cuddles acting on his own with those things or was the staff potentially pounding it into his younger, more impressionable, 3rd round head as well?

Because I'm going to have to do some serious reflecting on things if folks think Cuddles showed up in the huddle with that mindset and that all the gunslinging cowboy has been beaten out of Weeden.

I'm sure it helps that Shurmur & Co. have been pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options into his head rather than Thread The Needle.

Saw that all day yesterday. Weeds was more than happy through 3 quarters to just tuck the ball and fall vs. step up and rip cord downfield. Not sure how much of that is receivers not getting open vs. risk aversion. The checkdowns to covered RB's/WR's at the line was infuriating.

This begs the question that if it's Shurmur & Co. "pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options" to Weeden, was Cuddles acting on his own with those things or was the staff potentially pounding it into his younger, more impressionable, 3rd round head as well?

Because I'm going to have to do some serious reflecting on things if folks think Cuddles showed up in the huddle with that mindset and that all the gunslinging cowboy has been beaten out of Weeden.

Million dollar question, to be honest. I thought it was a product of Colt being incapable/too scared to throw the deeper routes last year combined with his shit WR's being unable to get open down there.....and then in week 2, it felt like Weeden consistently was connecting with guys further downfield than I saw all year last year.

Then in week 3, we return to checkdown bullshit.

Not sure where the smoking gun is, here. Could be a combination of both. If we see another 3-4 weeks of dink and dunk, i'm not sure MUR sees the end of the season. Let Holmgren/Chilly call the plays the rest of the way out, so you can properly evaluate the ginger menace.

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.

Agreed. Just thinking that objectively you have to really wonder. And you have to really wonder when the system is fucked six ways to Sunday if young QBs who are confused and uncomfortable and have few weapons to choose from get pressured, the game speeds up and their lack of confidence results in them in them looking to make the sure, safe pass, especially if they can't move around.

So either it affected both Cuddles and Weeden to that extent or the system calls for it too often, meaning replacing with Cuddles with Weeden, despite the arm strength difference, was misguided.

Gradysmanldy wrote:

peeker643 wrote:

Gradysmanldy wrote:

It's not just game to game, it's within games too.

I'm sure it helps that Shurmur & Co. have been pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options into his head rather than Thread The Needle.

Saw that all day yesterday. Weeds was more than happy through 3 quarters to just tuck the ball and fall vs. step up and rip cord downfield. Not sure how much of that is receivers not getting open vs. risk aversion. The checkdowns to covered RB's/WR's at the line was infuriating.

This begs the question that if it's Shurmur & Co. "pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options" to Weeden, was Cuddles acting on his own with those things or was the staff potentially pounding it into his younger, more impressionable, 3rd round head as well?

Because I'm going to have to do some serious reflecting on things if folks think Cuddles showed up in the huddle with that mindset and that all the gunslinging cowboy has been beaten out of Weeden.

Million dollar question, to be honest. I thought it was a product of Colt being incapable/too scared to throw the deeper routes last year combined with his shit WR's being unable to get open down there.....and then in week 2, it felt like Weeden consistently was connecting with guys further downfield than I saw all year last year.

Then in week 3, we return to checkdown bullshit.

Not sure where the smoking gun is, here. Could be a combination of both. If we see another 3-4 weeks of dink and dunk, i'm not sure MUR sees the end of the season. Let Holmgren/Chilly call the plays the rest of the way out, so you can properly evaluate the ginger menace.

peeker643 wrote:Agreed. Just thinking that objectively you have to really wonder. And you have to really wonder when the system is fucked six ways to Sunday if young QBs who are confused and uncomfortable and have few weapons to choose from get pressured, the game speeds up and their lack of confidence results in them in them looking to make the sure, safe pass, especially if they can't move around.

So either it affected both Cuddles and Weeden to that extent or the system calls for it too often, meaning replacing with Cuddles with Weeden, despite the arm strength difference, was misguided.

Gradysmanldy wrote:

peeker643 wrote:

Gradysmanldy wrote:

It's not just game to game, it's within games too.

I'm sure it helps that Shurmur & Co. have been pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options into his head rather than Thread The Needle.

Saw that all day yesterday. Weeds was more than happy through 3 quarters to just tuck the ball and fall vs. step up and rip cord downfield. Not sure how much of that is receivers not getting open vs. risk aversion. The checkdowns to covered RB's/WR's at the line was infuriating.

This begs the question that if it's Shurmur & Co. "pounding Check Down and Take Sacks as good options" to Weeden, was Cuddles acting on his own with those things or was the staff potentially pounding it into his younger, more impressionable, 3rd round head as well?

Because I'm going to have to do some serious reflecting on things if folks think Cuddles showed up in the huddle with that mindset and that all the gunslinging cowboy has been beaten out of Weeden.

Million dollar question, to be honest. I thought it was a product of Colt being incapable/too scared to throw the deeper routes last year combined with his shit WR's being unable to get open down there.....and then in week 2, it felt like Weeden consistently was connecting with guys further downfield than I saw all year last year.

Then in week 3, we return to checkdown bullshit.

Not sure where the smoking gun is, here. Could be a combination of both. If we see another 3-4 weeks of dink and dunk, i'm not sure MUR sees the end of the season. Let Holmgren/Chilly call the plays the rest of the way out, so you can properly evaluate the ginger menace.

Cuddles certainly checked down less under Mangini than Shurmur.

I agree with the assessment that part of the problem with Colt's checkdownitis was his inability to make some of the throws that were open downfield, some of it was also due to running for his life/throwing to first warm body he sees. But the Shurmur WCO was also a factor.

In a vacuum, I'm sure Weeden with his arm is more apt to go downfield than McCoy, but he's been told that if the play's not there immediately check down (probably to alleviate fumbles), and a check down to Richardson went for a TD last week, so Weeden's probably gonna swear by them during his formatory stage.

Both QB's have limitations that would make it difficult for them to succeed in the league in the first place, but under Shurmur's tutelage, it's damn near impossible.

Shurms reminds me of a golf coach that comes in and says "Well, I know you've been winning with your current swing, but I'm going to completely change it to the way I like."

Avg for completions was 8-10 yards in most games (excluding the last 2, when he got his first taste of the swirling winds and no run game) Completion percentage was right around where we'd expect, given his weapons and experience with the offense. Remember seeing him throw and thinking we had a real player.

Everything regressed over the next year, and now we're seeing the exact same problems with Weeden (who legitimately has a cannon)

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.

It's that simple. Same reason Brady Quinn checked down as much as Weeden and McCoy.

Right now Brandon Weeden is Mark Sanchez without experience. Sanchez blows. Four years in and he still A. Plays the game slow B. Has BAD turnovers - pick 6 types and C. Is only real effective hitting real quick first read patterns - the slant, for instance. (This is why Braylon Edwards was important for him that year - it's the only pattern Braylon ran well, using his size, and it was the only one Sanchez could throw.

All three of those things fit Weed Man to a T.

And Weeden has a worse pocket awareness.

Anyway, to the point - get a good quarterback and you won't get nearly as many checkdowns - no matter who the coach or surrounding players are.

leadpipe wrote:Anyway, to the point - get a good quarterback and you won't get nearly as many checkdowns - no matter who the coach or surrounding players are.

That's simple enough. Let's just get one of those. Which store do I go to get them ready made "good"? I hate it when you have to buy them raw and develop them.

Just speaking to the question of checkdowns, and why you see them in Cleveland.

To the point of "buying them raw and developing them," I would think about 16 years is enough to spoil one rotten.

That would be assuming that they identified one worth staying with and actually stayed with him for more than 2 years.

In the NFL, almost always you have to get your QB through the draft, and no matter how "good" the QB might eventually be, you're likely to get a lot of checkdowns while they grow. And you'll get even more if the Head Coach preaches them like they're salvation.