The Daily Lard 8-9-11

Douglas LeeAug 9, 2011 8:00 AM

Good Morning, Broncos fans! Andrew Mason writes that barring injury, it would be a "shock" if Kyle Orton does not start the Broncos' regular season opener in versus Oaktown. He says Orton has clearly been the Broncos' best QB throughout camp so far, showing more polish, command and smoothness than Tim Tebow, Brady Quinn, or Adam Weber, and that yesterday was no different. Mason also makes it a point to clarify that Tebow was not booed on Saturday, but rather the fans were cheering "Doom" for Elvis Dumervil when he sacked the popular QB.

Meanwhile, as we approach Thursday's preseason opener in Dallas, Mason says John Fox & Co. won't be installing a game plan so much as preparing players for the more routine aspects of game day. Plus, Eddie Royal was pulled from practice as what Fox called a "preventative" measure for the WR's surgically-repaired hip, while D.J. Williams and LenDale White practiced in pads for the first time since camp started. Finally, although he's listed as fifth on the team's depth chart at TE, Julius Thomas was working with starter Daniel Fells in two-TE sets.

Broncos

In his latest mailbag, Klis offers his assessment of the Broncos' free-agent acquisitions, echoes Mason's claim that Orton is almost surely going to be the starting QB, and says he can't evaluate the blocking of individual offensive linemen because, you know...nobody besides former linemen can?

Meanwhile, Orton said yesterday he's glad it's not the fans who get to decide who starts at QB; Kiszla thinks it wasn't the wisest thing to say. But you know, when they're already booing you in practice, what have you got to lose?

So, now that Klis admits to not being able to evaluate linemen, he of course writes an entire article on the Broncos' line in pass protection. Plus, Legwold's notes from practice.

LJ profiles Julius Thomas, who she says has been a favorite target of all the QBs.

Legwold says LenDale White is facing an uphill battle to make the team, while Nate Irving is unlikely to win the starting Mike job (as Doc has been saying for months now).

Live notes and an article on yesterday's practice from the official site.

Jim Rome thinks Tebow's now-infamous "grabbed back away" line belies the image Tebow has always projected, while David Whitley is tired of the Tebowmaniacs.

But Matt Yoder of AA thinks those in the media who are jumping on Tebow right now will be trumpeting an eventual redemptive story, comparing him to Tiger Woods.

Meanwhile in a video segment, Peter King says he thinks Tebow will eventually be the starter at some point this year, and that he will someday be a successful starting NFL QB.

Mason just is constantly tweeting when there&#8217s an open practice - watch for the time and keep an eye on his tweets at MaxBroncos MaxBroncos

cecillammey (Cecil Lammey) was talking about how well J. Thomas takes coaching tonight, something that I&#8217d tossed in his Broncography. Cecil also described a play in which J. Johnson&#8217s lane was blocked, he was caught in backfield, he bounced to the 0 gap, drew in the LBs, then BOUNCED to 8 hole & picked up 5yds - best 5yd run in practice. Nice to hear

PostBroncos Lindsay Jones is often irreverent and still informative. (ditto @Lindsanity and PostBroncos)

VicLombardi gets into some nice conversations with players.

Denver_Broncos = Denver Broncos

There&#8217s usually a lot of chatter about the team later in the evening, like tonight. Hope this helps. You can also twitter the players - Eddie Royal can be fun, Dawk talks about his faith, Cassius Vaughn can be fun to listen to, etc.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-10 07:20:21

I forgot to add: Kyle Orton is also one helluva good quarterback. We are damn lucky to have him here in Denver!!!!

Just my opinion!

Posted by BlackKnight on 2011-08-10 07:04:35

@Doc: I have tried to find Andrew Mason&#8217s play by play of the Bronco practices without success. Could you direct me to the correct site, please? Thanks.

I appreciate your comments. I am not surprised to see Orton working with Tebow. It is a tradition in sports where a veteran will work with a younger player. It is sort of like passing the torch.

Kyle Orton is a class act and does not deserve the abuse that has been heaped upon him.

Just my opinion.

Posted by BlackKnight on 2011-08-10 07:02:26

I have read both Doc and Ted mention what Cecil Lammey said about Walton - in his opinion, hasn&#8217t improved since last year&#8217s TC - and Beadles - he is tough as nails but gets beaten too much. (I am paraphrasing Doc&#8217s words).

This year we have seen the five starters on the OL play together pretty much all of the time: Clady-Beadles-Walton-Kuper-Franklin. This is the best way for an OL to grow stronger and more cohesive. Play together.

Think about last year in TC and in the season: LT: Clady was the only LT;

LG: Daniels and Beadles played LG in TC - when the season started Daniels played until Beadles took over mid-season when Harris returned.

OC: Walton - except for a few times in TC

RG: Kuper

RT: I think Batiste began the season; Beadles played some until Harris returned mid-season.

Clady was gimpy and not 100%. Beadles and Walton were rookies. Harris did not play until mid-season and then not 100%.

Hindsight is always 20-20 - but had Harris been replaced before the season with either a draft choice or a FA - we could have had Clady-Beadles-Walton-Kuper-RT? playing together in TC and in the season.

Here is the source of much of the offensive woes the past 2 seasons - after game 6 of 2009. Offensive success begins up front. A running game begins up front. A passing game begins up front. Success on offense keeps your defensive guys on the bench.

Posted by BlackKnight on 2011-08-10 01:53:20

No problem. You always have to wonder with young guys how much is the team, coaches, system, and how much is them. You never can know for sure, looking back, either. If Quinn has taken coaching and put it together - more power to him. (Thought that might have been it on Brady - to many QBs running through the days&#8230grin)

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 22:54:33

@Doc Bear: My bad. I had Tom Brady on my mind for some odd reason, so I was wondering why you were bringing him up. Trying to work and play at the same time is making me old and senile, I guess. So now that I have the mud out of my head, sure, I think Quinn has a very good shot for at least the #2 spot, and I&#8217d be happy with that. (I was actually hoping the Broncos would have drafted Quinn way back when, and I don&#8217t think he&#8217s ever been in an ideal quarterbacking situation since entering the NFL.)

Posted by CompUser on 2011-08-09 22:16:51

For what it&#8217s worth (and it may not be worth a lot), reports coming out of practice today (8/9) indicate Tebow&#8217s sliding down the chute and may now have to compete for the backup position against Quinn.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-09 22:12:24

Comp - Both of the other QBs are also competing against Brady Quinn. Quinn&#8217s game has improved noticeably in camp, and one of the questions hat came up in the past 5 days has been whether or not Denver should look at Quinn before Tebow, given both of their performances, if Orton goes down or fails to perform. That&#8217s a possible situation, and for those who only want Tebow, it also begs the issue of whether or not he&#8217s the second best QB on the team right now.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 21:24:57

@Doc Bear: &#8220Should they start Tebow over Quinn if he doesnât outplay Brady either?&#8221 I didn&#8217t realize any of our quarterbacks were competing against Brady. What&#8217s your point?

@Anyone else who commented about my metrics: I didn&#8217t use metrics of any kind in my original comment. I just stated my my opinion. Oh wait, I said &#8220So far, that person is Orton&#8221. If that&#8217s a metric, then it means that Orton is starting at this point in time, and for this pre-season he has also been the starter prior to this point in time. Hense, the term &#8220so far&#8221. <img alt="grin" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/grin.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

Posted by CompUser on 2011-08-09 21:12:28

@CompUser

Lack of critical thinking in your arguement = me being done with it.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 21:04:51

Elway on Tebow (today&#8217s article)&#8212

&#8220He&#8217s a great young man who is really working hard,&#8221 says team president Elway, whose team will visit the Dallas Cowboys on Thursday night. &#8220But he didn&#8217t get an offseason to work on [playing from the pocket]. He didn&#8217t get much of that in college. And it&#8217s a completely different thing than the shotgun. Plus, he&#8217s only had the one season. But he&#8217s an amazing football player. I&#8217d never give up on Tim Tebow.&#8221

&#8220One of the unique things about Tim is that he has that unique ability to make something happen when the play breaks down,&#8221 Elway says. &#8220That gives him a great advantage there âŚ but you have to win games from the pocket in this league. You can&#8217t rely on your improvising. That&#8217s one thing I learned. I was always going to make those plays outside the pocket, but that can&#8217t be your bread and butter.&#8221

@SpaceCowboy: If Orton is actually 11-18 as a starter like you said, he&#8217s won 37.9% of his starts. Tebow is 1-2 as a starter, so he&#8217s 33.3%. That makes Orton the &#8220winningest&#8221 by a nose.

But anyway, I didn&#8217t say &#8220winningest&#8221 quarterback.

I said &#8220most winnable&#8221 quarterback - for the coming season. And as of right now, I believe Fox thinks that&#8217s Orton since Orton is starting right now.

Posted by CompUser on 2011-08-09 20:59:35

@comp. Not the best metric. See &#8220Peete, Rodney&#8221. Let&#8217s not even get started about the epic Chris Weinke era.

Posted by acemagoo2001 on 2011-08-09 20:40:24

@CompUser

Gonna sound rude: Way to pass the buck

/end rude

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 20:37:59

@SpaceCowboy: I&#8217m using the Fox-probably-knows-what-he&#8217s-doing-and-has-Orton-in-as-the-#1-quarterback metric.

Posted by CompUser on 2011-08-09 20:30:47

@Doc

It just seems that the only point people seem to make at why Orton should be the starter is because of his practices this year. And if that is the BIGGEST reason, then I can&#8217t argue with that, because I come from a fundamentally different mindset, and we will never be able to see things from the same mindset.

I never believed Tebow would beat out Orton in practice. Never, ever, ever, ever. I guess in some way I feel lied to by the FO by saying this would be a &#8220fair, open competition&#8221 and it never was. Nobody that has been at TC has said that it was fair or open. If the FO wants to go with Orton, just f&#8217in do it, but don&#8217t lie to me and don&#8217t insult my intelligence.

If Cam Newton is ready to start in the NFL, then Tim Tebow is. He isn&#8217t as polished, he isn&#8217t as good at going through his reads, he isn&#8217t many things that Orton is, but&#8230.Orton doesn&#8217t win games. And I am just tired, very, very tired of seeing the defense on the field for 35-40 minutes because Orton makes nothing happen. Maybe it is just my background, but I personally believe the only way you improve is if you get the support you need, and I don&#8217t see that in Tebow&#8217s case. Instead what I am seeing is all the support going to a guy who I absolutely can&#8217t stand at QB. I can&#8217t express the words here, but I watched ever single game last year, it was painful, it was something that made me very angry, and the way I see it, nothing has been done at the QB position to make what happened not happen again.

I am not saying Tebow will succeed, but you can&#8217t possible know that without finding out, and the Broncos apparently don&#8217t care about finding out what is going on with TT, they would rather BS around and start a guy who gave up last year (many times) and the team gave up with him.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 20:04:39

Space:

Glad that you didn&#8217t think it was personal. At this point, I&#8217ve got to admit, though - I think that we&#8217re all clear on your feelings on this topic <img alt="wink" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/wink.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

And to also be clear on what&#8217s true here, over the last couple of days, Tebow went against the #3 defense and Orton the #1. Tebow still struggled a lot (reading Mason doing play by play during practice is instructive) and Orton generally played well. Lots of QBs develop into #1s while behind the starter on the depth chart - Rodgers and Brady, for two. If Tebow is as talented as most of us hope, he&#8217ll get there.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 19:53:18

@Doc

Didn&#8217t think it was pointed at me, just wanted to say it for clarity since I am a man of strong emotions.

Still don&#8217t see how he has &#8220earned&#8221 his starting job because of his skillz in practice. He was a great practice player last year, and the year before, and probably back in Chicago, and probably back at Purdue. I only care about on the field performance, and while I know certain factors have worked against him, some have helped inflate his stats (&#8220STOKLEY, DOWN THE SIDE LINE, WOW!&#8221). His game day performance is all I care about, and since we have 2 years of tape to see how he responds in those situations, I am thoroughly underwhelmed. I honestly believe that Tebow couldn&#8217t have done worse than Orton did last year. Orton&#8217s stated job description when he first got to Denver: &#8220Score Touchdowns and win games&#8221. He hasn&#8217t done either of those well.

My other point would be that QB Competitions in camp always fail. If Tebow is to develop as quickly as possible, he needs the full support of the organization, as many reps as possible, and as much teaching as possible. Lockout hurt a lot of that, but the way TC is going now he is not getting what he needs to improve to the point to be better in practice and in game situations. I am pissed off at the whole situation because, in my opinion, the QB thing has been handled ABSOLUTELY wrong. Orton plays against 2&#8217s and looks great, Tebow plays against 1&#8217s and he looks turrible, just turrible. Quinn plays against 3&#8217s and he looks great. Maybe it is just my engineering background, but I don&#8217t know how you can compare different things under different situations equally.

Everyone says Tebow is raw, Tebow needs time to develop, well how the hell is he supposed to develop this year when he will be doing EXACTLY what he did last year, being responsible for practicing as the opposing offense??? So he doesn&#8217t get as much coaching/reps as he needs in TC, he won&#8217t get as much coaching/reps as he needs in the season, how the mother cow of donkey kong is he supposed to develop into a starting QB?

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 19:40:01

The comment section of the lard should be renamed: Groundhog Day, Starring SpaceCowboy.

Posted by ButteBronco on 2011-08-09 19:30:56

Same answer, Space. Why do you think that my comment on hating was aimed at you?

On your last sentence, though - it&#8217s because he&#8217s the best QB in the race right now. That&#8217s the long and short of it. He&#8217s not being given it - he&#8217s earning it. If you dislike him and can&#8217t ever see him helping the Broncos, that&#8217s cool. But Tebow hasn&#8217t looked good this preseason and Orton&#8217s outplayed both he and Quinn, which is how it gets decided. If Orton falters, Quinn or Tebow will play. If you believe that he&#8217s going to falter, then you believe someone else will get their shot. Why focus on the short term? You&#8217ll get your wish unless Orton wins.

@ CompUser - Fair point. Quinn&#8217s also outplaying Tebow and Quinn right now. Should they start Tebow over Quinn if he doesn&#8217t outplay Brady either?

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 19:27:25

@CompUser

By what metric are you using to state that Orton is the &#8220best, most winnable quarterback&#8221. His record? 11-18 as a starter? His 3rd Down conversion QB rating last year of 72? His 4th quarter QB rating when the game was within 7 points of 58? The fact that he threw 60% of his TD&#8217s last year in 4 games (3 wins, game against the Rams)? His abysmal TD/Pass Attempt % of 4,7%? His yardage numbers (if so you better have supported the job Cutler did, same argument, different QB)? His ability to do well in practice? His status as a veteran?

What is this statement based off of, because I see NOTHING in his history here that proves he is the &#8220best, most winnable quarterback&#8221.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 19:15:32

Gristle: You also weren&#8217t one of the bozos booing your own player at practice - and congrats to the fans who turned out and cheered Orton today. I don&#8217t have a problem with your dislike of Orton as a player, although I do think that lots of people have gotten over the top on it. A lot of the Orton comments on the threads include statements on how that fan &#8216hates&#8217 Orton - those are the people that my comment was aimed at.

The fact is, I&#8217ve found that Andrew Mason knows football pretty well and he&#8217s just one of many suggesting that Tebow&#8217s been an often distant third in this year&#8217s race. Do you give Orton credit for trying to help Tebow out? From your comments, it obviously doesn&#8217t matter how much he improves or helps Denver win. I won&#8217t pretend that I understand that, but I respect your opinion.

As far as practice - I&#8217m in Carlsbad, that&#8217s true. I also spend each practice following people I trust on twitter feeds before reading everyone&#8217s summary following the practice and following it with interviews - coaches and players, as they&#8217re available. When there&#8217s film, I watch it. Is it perfect? No. Is it what&#8217s available. Yes. If you&#8217ve got thoughts on improving it, I&#8217m open.

@subway: Appreciate your perspective. Fact is, though, that Orton has always supported the players around him, and this isn&#8217t any different. it&#8217s funny to me how we look for ways that somehow it&#8217s really not a kindness or a matter of respect for the team, but it&#8217s only because he&#8217s ahead. His background doesn&#8217t match that, though.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 19:14:13

I don&#8217t hate Orton the person, stated that many times, I hate Orton the starting QB of the Denver Broncos. By all accounts, he is a great guy in the community, and would probably be cool to drink a beer with, but from a FOOTBALL perspective, I don&#8217t think he has done anything in his 2 years here to DESERVE to be given the starting job.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 19:03:00

@bfree2bronc: Well said. Heck, I remember once thinking Orton would someday be making way for Tom Brandstater. <img alt="smile" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/smile.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

Posted by broncosmontana on 2011-08-09 18:23:53

@ Doc Bear: It seems to me that Orton is held up to a much higher standard than any other NFL quarterback. I attribute this to what I see as a sort of mob mentality in the sense that it&#8217s cool to want Tebow as the starting quarterback. How well he plays is secondary to his &#8220coolness&#8221.

@ all Orton detractors: I don&#8217t dislike Tebow. I just don&#8217t want him (or anyone) handed the starting quarterback job without proving himself to be the best, most winnable quarterback on the team. So far, that person is Orton. Let&#8217s all get behind our team and support if fully - including its quarterback, whether that be Orton, Quinn, or Tebow.

Posted by CompUser on 2011-08-09 18:23:01

Do we really know if Tim Tebow is our future in the mind of Fox/Elway? Do they want that kind of quarterback guiding the Broncos? Sure EFX entertained a trade that Kyle requested, but we don&#8217t know what lies beneath the Dove Valley mindset.

I can&#8217t imagine Kyle Orton being in our future plans either, but what if he does indeed guide this team (with all the transactions going on in a short period of time)to the playoffs and beyond? Would that suddenly change their minds about Kyle knowing that he is still fairly young and has a lot of miles left in the tank. I don&#8217t listen to analyst that say Kyle has reached a certain ceiling, they are just talking bobbing heads of the league. They don&#8217t know!

Setting here speculating the outcome of the Tebow/Orton issue is fruitless at the moment, but it seems to keep the mind buzzing for some. Maybe that creates some comfort for those who are anxious and nervous for this team to take a different route in the standings. Something we haven&#8217t seen in awhile, an actual winning record.

Kyle Orton will never be the type of quarterback we want even if he wins 10 games this season. The flair isn&#8217t there, but he has endured adversity since entering the league, some caused by him and some caused by the circumstances surrounding him.

We want an exciting QB under center and maybe that will come true, but at the moment we are in transition of many positions that need to elevate their performance on and off the field as well. One step at a time&#8230

Posted by bfree2bronc on 2011-08-09 18:19:00

@DocBear Given how Orton acted around Tebow at the end of the last season&#8212I&#8217m guessing this has to do more with the fact Orton is solidified as the starter. It&#8217s a lot easier to be nice to a guy when you know he&#8217s not taking your job anytime soon.

I&#8217m also beginning to think Tebow isn&#8217t going to look that good at the preseason game Thursday. I&#8217ll say it again I think he&#8217s over thinking everything he&#8217s doing right now.

Posted by subwayalumni on 2011-08-09 18:18:55

@GMc

I don&#8217t disagree, but he has to weigh those risks against the potential situation in Miami. Coach on the hot seat, new OC (so the rest of the offense is on a learning curve), new system for KO and no offseason to prepare, new RBs, fanbase that has been waiting on a decent QB forever, tough division, OL isn&#8217t any better than DEN. I think he can rightly assume that his chances of success in DEN this year are better given the what he&#8217d be walking into in Miami.

@doc, 99% of the time the media has no clue what&#8217s going on in a practice. So we&#8217ve seen all these reports that I think unfairly paint pictures of both TT and KO. Ultimately in-season game performance is what matters. TT is unproven in that regard, despite the promising starts he had last year. KO has proven to be an average-level starter in the NFL. That&#8217s nothing to sneeze at but it begs the question of whether he can improve as the team around him does, and if he&#8217s capable of making plays in &#8220clutch&#8221 situations (4th qtr, 3rd downs, red zone) as upper-level QBs do to push the team to victories in those close games. Until he proves he can it&#8217s very reasonable to question whether he&#8217s worth the investment in both $$$ and reps to either TT or BQ.

Posted by acemagoo2001 on 2011-08-09 18:17:06

For the record (f it matters), I don&#8217t &#8220hate&#8221 Orton. I think he&#8217s an average to above average QB and I&#8217m sick of watching him QB the Broncos. I also think he makes some tactical errors such as yesterday&#8217s &#8220pleasing the fans is my last concern&#8230.&#8221 comments, but I don&#8217t hate him for such a comment. Additionally, he also didn&#8217t exactly endear himself to the fanbase by nixing the Miami trade because of his contract demands, but I get that that was a business decision.

I really think that many fans who &#8220hate&#8221 Orton are simply fed up with watching him and are ready to see what T2 has, as well as frustrated with EFX for botching the trade and how that all broke down. KO &#8220haters&#8221 are not former Florida transplants nor have personal vendettas against him.

Posted by Gristle McThornbody on 2011-08-09 18:13:44

Two thoughts:

The #1 OL played the #1 D yesterday and held up well against them. Last week they didn&#8217t - yesterday they did. Next week, we have no idea. Probably best to let the camp run before we go too far down that road. There&#8217s no question that IF the OL doesn&#8217t improve, that the QBs will be in trouble, and it&#8217s not just Orton: Tebow didn&#8217t hold up well when he had no pass coverage, he&#8217s been weak throwing up the middle and an NFL defense can take away the sidelines, leaving him exposed. Lousy pass blocking and run blocking will kill any team&#8217s chances. It will also get your QB injured - it&#8217s odd how the connection there with Orton&#8217s injuries is so easily ignored. He&#8217s been injured when the OL fails and gets him repeatedly hammered, each time.

For all the time that hating Orton gets on the threads, did anyone catch what he was doing yesterday? They had the article on hour 2 at 104 The Fan - he was coaching Tebow. Tebow and Orton may not get along that well, they&#8217re in a very tough competition that&#8217s created major divisions in the fanbase, and Orton&#8217s being booed at practice of all things, but because Tebow had (reportedly from several fans on site) his worst day of camp, Orton worked with him to get him over the roughest spots.

Kind of shoots the whole Woody Paige, I-hate-Orton, he&#8217s self-absorbed, not a team player meme all to heck, doesn&#8217t it? Tebow&#8217s gone from weak to worse, and Orton&#8217s trying to get him back on track. Yeah, he&#8217s a real jerk, isn&#8217t he?

It&#8217s time that some folks rethink that one.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2011-08-09 17:53:30

People trash talk and boo Orton, and then they get upset when the guy fires back. Jeez. I could care less about his personality. All I care about is wins. If the D works and he gets a run game, then there&#8217s no excuse to not only put up a good showing (wild card) and get there by playing a couple tough teams as an undercard and taking a win from them.

I want to see overachieving out of this team and its players. For many years (post Elway), we got served underachievers or mediocrity.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-09 17:33:19

@ ace

I agree on your points. But I just don&#8217t see how he can handle all this pressure and perform at such a high level all year so as to warrant a long term, high dollar contract and commitment from a team. That&#8217s not to say he shouldn&#8217t try but one would think he&#8217d also be realistic with his expectations, no?

Posted by Gristle McThornbody on 2011-08-09 17:22:45

The debate over an extension for Orton, whether during or after the season (but before he hits FA obviously), is academic imo. He&#8217s trying to line himself up for a big payday as a FA in the next offseason similar to a lot of other players, as teams draw closer to the deadline for maintaining a real salary floor. It&#8217s a risk on his part but a well calculated one. I also think this is a big reason why the contract talks with Miami broke down. If Miami wouldn&#8217t/couldn&#8217t make a financial commitment to him that would eliminate his incentive to test FA then there was no point in him going to a new team and new offense in a walk year.

Posted by acemagoo2001 on 2011-08-09 16:56:13

I will not support Kyle Orton as the QB of this team no matter what.

Just me&#8230.He has not ever lead the Broncos and that is the thing that a QB has to do. The Broncos are half defeated with him at QB. Time to move on and get whatever we can for him, get him the heck out of town.

We have a young team and should have a young QB, TT or BQ but not KO. That is all

Posted by JJ the Bronco fan on 2011-08-09 16:46:17

Kiszla is appealing to the basest instinct of the fan base&#8212bush league headline. I&#8217m all in on Tebow, but Kyle has a right to his convictions and I&#8217ll support him as well.

And actually, O-line protection and last year&#8217s performances notwithstanding, I just have to say that personally I like the newer, grittier Orton. He&#8217s had a chip on his shoulder his whole career, but this year he seems to be saying, eff this, I&#8217m a veteran NFL QB and I intend to play like one and they&#8217re gonna have to either outplay me or cart me off the field on a stretcher. This is the kind of attitude i&#8217ve been wanted to see in him all along. Couple that intensity with the apparent fact that Tebow has been pressing a little too much and needed more guidance (and fewer bookstore appearances?) over the summer, and I&#8217m okay with putting off the &#8220It&#8217s Tim&#8217s team&#8221 thing for another year.

One thing&#8217s for certain: it isn&#8217t getting any more boring in Dove Valley than it&#8217s been the last couple of years.

Posted by broncosmontana on 2011-08-09 16:44:57

@Gristle

Don&#8217t underestimate the value of the BAG that the spaghetti squashes is in. If it is big enough there are plenty of things you can do with it. Gym bag&#8230.laundry bag, grocery bag if you are a hippie&#8230.sack race bag.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 16:26:41

Yeah, SpaceCowboy, that&#8217s about as exciting as winning a large bag of spaghetti squashes in a raffle! Wicked awesome!

Posted by Gristle McThornbody on 2011-08-09 16:24:46

If the O-line does not improve quickly, then I don&#8217t see Orton lasting the Oakland home opener. I can envision Orton either getting dinged up or not moving the offense. Tebow will come in after halftime and provide just enough enthusiasm to make the game close. Hence the formal Tebow era will begin and Orton (if healthy), will be traded.

Posted by Orange and Blue on 2011-08-09 16:22:38

Not like our opinion matters&#8230..Kyle Orton is your starting QB for the Denver Broncos!

I tried to sound excited. Upside, we will get to see a TON of our new Defense, so that should be fun

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 16:11:13

cant wait to see our new D&#8230

Posted by ktown on 2011-08-09 15:59:39

@Space Cowboy - I&#8217m not saying he IS the guy to take the Broncos to the super Bowl, I&#8217m saying he&#8217s likely only that sort of QB in the right set of circumstances. I&#8217m talking about a team like the 1999 Ravens or the 2002 Bucs - it&#8217s not likely that the Broncos are going to field that sort of D anytime soon.

That said, I do like Orton. I think he&#8217s a decent QB who&#8217s been in some bad situations (although his injury history is a concern). He&#8217s in a weird spot though, the way I see it. I believe he&#8217s an above-average starting QB in the NFL (when healthy), but he&#8217s yet to show that he&#8217s really a top-tier QB. And increasingly it seems like you need one of those top-tier QB&#8217s in order to really get deep into the playoffs or win a superbowl. So he&#8217s kinda in limbo. He&#8217s likely to find himself bouncing around the NFL for a while longer, unless he has a season that&#8217s good enough to be a career-changer at some point. That&#8217s not unbelievable, but certainly not likely at this point.

Posted by Hercules Rockefeller on 2011-08-09 15:57:26

@JoePlummer: So if the Broncos go 10-6 (or better) with Orton as quarterback, make it into the playoffs but lose the first game, you flat out wouldn&#8217t want Orton back as quarterback? Would it matter if Orton was a superstar in that playoff game, and the loss was due to our defense sucking dirt, or poor play by some other player(s) on the offense? Or is Orton the only guy on the team who would be held accountable? If that&#8217s the case, I&#8217d have to say I&#8217m glad you aren&#8217t coaching/managing the Broncos.

Posted by CompUser on 2011-08-09 15:47:38

@Hercules Rockefeller

You mean like the Defense he had while he was in Chicago and still went 9-7 his last year there because well, he got hurt, AGAIN.

A dude who has a decade of injuries is not somebody I want to invest time/money into in football. But I am just some random dude on a website, not a football genius like eye ball water dunker.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 15:44:27

Probably a minimum of 10-6. More likely somewhere in the range of 12-4 and a playoff win. If you&#8217re going to keep him for the long term you&#8217ve got to feel that he&#8217s the guy who can take you all the way, and anything less than that leaves doubts in your mind.

I&#8217m not saying he&#8217s not that guy (although I think he&#8217d have to play on a team with a once in a decade type of Dominant D to do so), it&#8217s just that you&#8217ve got Tebow sitting on the second string and all the pressure from his fans, and Orton&#8217s going to be unrestricted and looking for a long term deal. At that point, you&#8217re approaching the crossroads - resign Orton for the long term (and do what with Tebow? let him ride the pine and take 5-10 wildcat snaps per game for the rest of his rookie contract) or roll the dice with Tebow. I don&#8217t see much room for compromise here, so you&#8217re going to have to be sure to take Orton.

Now, I&#8217m not saying that&#8217s fair to Orton, but it&#8217s just how these things shake out. familiarity breeds contempt and 3 years with a QB that&#8217s good but leaves you with the feeling that he&#8217s not quite good enough is generally all you get in the NFL.

I wouldn&#8217t worry about KO getting an extension. We could go 14-2 win the super bowl and He wouldn&#8217t take an extension here in Denver. The fans have seen to that. At the end of this year KO is gone.

As far as the comment he made. Well even if you realize it is a setup question no matter how or what you say will always be taken out of context and get blown up. A person never wins when they get hit with a setup question. Look at what happened to Tebow the other day. Paige set him up and he didn&#8217t come across very well.

As far as KO performance the last two years, there are so many variable that go into that such as teamate play, play calling etc. He gets all the blame. Sure he probably deserve some of the blame but I think it was more the inept play calling and coaching than mostly KO performance. Once McD was gone I think they play calling improved somewhat and Tebow was the beneficiary of that. Just my opinion of course.

I&#8217d like to see what KO can do with a more balanced play calling selection. If we still see that same kind of performance, then by all means replace him. If we see improvement then good for the team it means we are improving. But like I first said It&#8217s not going to matter what kind of season we have KO is gone after this season. and yes I think Tebow will benefit from having to sit one more year. Just my opinion again.

Posted by papasteven on 2011-08-09 15:33:03

&#8220regular season opener in Oaktown.&#8221

Isn&#8217t that first game in Denver?

Posted by Gman on 2011-08-09 15:30:57

@Dennis

Win the division and win a playoff game. That&#8217s the minimum record it would take for me to want Orton back starting next year. He can have nice stats, but I want to see him lead the team to wins before I would resign him.

Posted by JoePlummer on 2011-08-09 15:16:11

Dennis, I agree that they&#8217d have to be minimum 10-6 for Orton to get any credit. But the likelihood of that happening is zilch. KO can&#8217t stay healthy an entire year anyway. T2 will get his chance sometime this year, one way or another.

Posted by Gristle McThornbody on 2011-08-09 15:09:10

Dennis, agree with you 10-6 or better.

I&#8217m bummed we won&#8217t get to see Demaryius Thomas and Julius Thomas on the field together this year. With the glut at TE and WR, we&#8217ve got to be thinking of moving DT to injured reserve. Makes no sense rushing a guy back so he can play in late October on a rebuilding team. Esp with his injury history.

Posted by krissberg on 2011-08-09 15:06:01

Based on the breakdown of the Miami trade, Orton is asking for Tom Brady Bucks. So I&#8217d have to go with Space, and say he&#8217d have to rank top five in most major categories, including wins (12-4), for us to dole out that kind of cash&#8230 and if we/he were really that good, I suppose I wouldn&#8217t even feel that bad about payind the dude.

Posted by OutOfYourElement on 2011-08-09 15:04:31

@Dennis

No problem. High expectations, but KO has to revert 2 years of anger over his performance (year 1 was fine till I reviewed)

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 15:01:26

Hey do any of you guys ever listen to Nate Kreckman? I listened once and he ticked me off but if you guys so he is ok I will go back and listen to him.

Posted by Dennis Mitchell on 2011-08-09 15:01:03

Anyone else? Thanks SC

Posted by Dennis Mitchell on 2011-08-09 14:53:28

@Dennis

12-4, Super Bowl Appearance. That is what it will take for me to think positively of him. Anything less and kick him to curb and curb stomp his ego

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 14:49:19

Vic & Gary were just talking about what Kyle&#8217s record has to be for the Broncos to resign him&#8230......

We were 4-12 last year&#8230...how much improvement in that record would we need to think Kyle is worth an extension?

I wouldn&#8217t even think about it unless we won the AFC West at 10-6 or better

Posted by Dennis Mitchell on 2011-08-09 14:15:33

I&#8217m glad so far that&#8217s been taken as a joke. Folks are so edgy about this issue and anything can be misconstrued anymore.

IMO, Jake Plummer never liked the media, not necessarily the fans. He seemed like a blue collar, good dude. I can understand why he wouldn&#8217t like the media.

But Orton isn&#8217t doing himself any favors by making snarky comments like the above. He doesn&#8217t really need to throw gasoline on the fire, does he? For someone &#8220so cerebral&#8221, his comment that &#8220pleasing fans is the last thing I want&#8221 is pretty mindless and careless.

If Kyle Orton does indeed start Week 1 I hope he&#8217s got nerves of steel because all the pressure in the world is on him. Wins won&#8217t be enough, he&#8217ll have to be lights out.

Posted by Gristle McThornbody on 2011-08-09 13:45:48

@Gristle

Ha. It was a crappy question that had mostly crappy answers. It was almost Jake The Snake-esque&#8230.except KO don&#8217t perform on the field like my 2nd favorite Broncos QB of all time. You still don&#8217t insult the fans, because while I HATE him as our starting QB, I won&#8217t insult his person (or pay the money to boo him). But if the reports are true he decided to stay here, so i would give the finger right back at him (again, crappy question, crappy answer)

So, I finished watching weeks 15-17 last night, and I really, really, REALLY hope that the O-line has improved in run blocking. The Raiders were ranked 26th against the run in week 15, yet they man handled our O-Line(anyone remember that safety?), and the only times Tebow had much time to throw the ball was off of PA. He made some GREAT throws in that game tho, with the amount of blitzing up the middle would have thought they would have tried the screen game (and since KO is the starter that option is out&#8230.).

Defensively I think this new unit can handle the Raiders as long as there isn&#8217t insane lapses in coverage (Jacoby Ford, their FB going 71 yards UNTOUCHED!)

0-1 till we aren&#8217t!

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-09 13:22:22

And unless FO talked to someone we haven&#8217t heard from, Darcel McBath graded out just fine on game day. This seems like a writer taking liberties when he thinks nobody will check his work.

Posted by Chibronx on 2011-08-09 13:16:29

Random question, Doug: How many free agents are still out there? The major activity has dried up, but where is the league vis a vis the salary floor. I only ask because the offensive line scares me sh@tless.

Posted by Chibronx on 2011-08-09 13:13:11

&#8220Thank God the people don&#8217t make the decisions. That&#8217s all I&#8217ve got to say about it.&#8221

âBroncos quarterback Kyle Orton, when asked how he felt about Tim Tebow being the &#8220people&#8217s choice&#8221 as the team&#8217s starting quarterback

&#8220Even if my boy Timmy wasn&#8217t a Bronco, I still wouldn&#8217t want you at QB. No need to thank me.&#8221