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May 19: A preliminary army inquiry has suggested "operational lapses" behind the killing and beheading of two Indian jawans near the Line of Control on May 1.

The findings match those of a parallel inquiry by the BSF, deployed on the LoC under the army's operational command. One of the slain jawans was from the army and the other from the BSF.

"Our preliminary inquiry has revealed that the joint army-BSF patrol was ambushed by Pakistan's Border Action Team at two forward posts in the Krishna Ghati sector in the early hours of May 1," a senior official at the army headquarters in Delhi said.

"It has raised questions about the alertness of the patrolling team and their command structure, as well as operational lapses."

The official expressed surprise that Pakistani troops had managed to travel 200 metres into India despite orders for intensified surveillance amid a spike in cross-border infiltration bids.

"One lapse was particularly glaring: the back-up forces were found without night-vision devices," another source said.

Officials said senior army commanders were trying to ascertain how the infiltration went undetected and to pinpoint the laxity to avert repeats. They said the preliminary report had cast doubts whether the standard operating procedures for joint patrolling had been followed.

Government sources said defence minister Arun Jaitley had yesterday met senior Northern Command officers in charge of counter-insurgency and counter-infiltration operations in Udhampur. Army chief Bipin Rawat was present.

"Jaitley was briefed about the May 1 infiltration by Pakistani troops and about the need to revise the standard operating procedure along the LoC," an official said.

Army sources said patrolling the 750km LoC was a challenge. "It's practically impossible to physically deploy soldiers along such a long stretch, but we need to be vigilant 24x7," an official said.

Sources also highlighted frictions and a lack of coordination between the army and the BSF. In the past, the BSF has accused the army of retreating from winter posts in high-altitude areas along the LoC, leaving the paramilitary jawans to stay on.

The BSF, which reports to the Union home ministry, has 20 battalions on the LoC and the army has over 100 battalions.

Sources said the army had informed Jaitley that patrolling of the most vulnerable areas had been increased, with the teams split into smaller squads.

Tough stand

Jaitley today pledged an iron-fist policy on both foreign and local militants, rejecting calls for a distinction between the two that has grown since Hizbul commander Burhan Wani's killing last year.

"It is very clear that terrorism and militancy are aimed against the Indian state, its sovereignty and the people of Jammu and Kashmir. The effect of their actions is that besides security personnel, it is local citizens who are losing their lives," Jaitley said.

"Therefore, those who take to violence of this magnitude will certainly be accountable for their actions."

Aditya G wrote:Paki guns are silent after recent Indian army riposte on bhimber and khuretta

Yes, we all saw the reports and Paki army chief Bajwa's statements on "extremism". But how long before Pakis by the fprce of habit resort to their usual Pakistaniyat and the cycle starts all over again? After all this is wh

rsangram wrote:I dont understand this, "time and place of our own choosing", any more than I understand "the blood of our jawans will not go in vain" nonsense. Can someone please explain.

I doubt if the Americans or Israelis are dumb enough to actually do a knee jerk counterattack unless they know they can actually punish. Pakistan typically prepares for a counter attack by evacuating camps and readying weapons to shoot back. They do not sit with thumb in Musharraf after a BAT attack. So the time and place of response is always selected carefully - by anyone Israelis Americans or Indians. That said neither Israel nor America have the need or the guts to hit an adversary as powerful as Pakistan. Israelis only have ragtag Palestinians (no airforce, no AWACS) and the US has never taken on a really powerful adversary after WW 2. They are too chicken to take on N. Korea, let alone Pakistan

rsangram wrote:I dont understand this, "time and place of our own choosing", any more than I understand "the blood of our jawans will not go in vain" nonsense. Can someone please explain.

I doubt if the Americans or Israelis are dumb enough to actually do a knee jerk counterattack unless they know they can actually punish. Pakistan typically prepares for a counter attack by evacuating camps and readying weapons to shoot back. They do not sit with thumb in Musharraf after a BAT attack. So the time and place of response is always selected carefully - by anyone Israelis Americans or Indians. That said neither Israel nor America have the need or the guts to hit an adversary as powerful as Pakistan. Israelis only have ragtag Palestinians (no airforce, no AWACS) and the US has never taken on a really powerful adversary after WW 2. They are too chicken to take on N. Korea, let alone Pakistan

Is Pakistan a powerful country ? If so, how powerful ? More than India ? If not, how powerful in relation to India ?

As wimpish as America is, no one is attacking its borders and claiming its territory. The one attack of any significance that did occur - 9/11, they extracted a terrible retribution for it - more than 100,000 muslims killed so far and still counting. And the retribution started almost immediately after 9/11 and continues to this day. And dont forget Osama Bin Ladin ji (as Digvijay would address him), in Abotabad.

I would settle for India being as wimpish as America, killing 100,000 muslims in retribution and killing just one of Haiz Sayeed, Dawood and Maehmoud Azhar in Abotabad.

rsangram wrote:As wimpish as America is, no one is attacking its borders and claiming its territory. The one attack of any significance that did occur - 9/11, they extracted a terrible retribution for it - more than 100,000 muslims killed so far and still counting. And the retribution started almost immediately after 9/11 and continues to this day. And dont forget Osama Bin Ladin ji (as Digvijay would address him), in Abotabad.

I would settle for India being as wimpish as America, killing 100,000 muslims in retribution and killing just one of Haiz Sayeed, Dawood and Maehmoud Azhar in Abotabad.

Too much America admiration will soon turn sour. America's retribution is now heading towards anyone and everyone including Indians, not just Muslims, even as they pay jiziya to Pakistan and Trump looks idiotic dancing with Saudi kings. The same sunnis will be killing Indians while the elite continue to slavishly salivate over America on here. I recall the smirking we saw when Shah Rukh Khan etc were detained in US airports. But now - even long term residents in the US are being taught about their place in America. Yet we continue rah rah America on here

This is the "Border watch" thread and the way America is "watching its borders" with paranoia about brown people is ironic considering that Indians are taking a hit as other Indians cheer America with tired and outdated arguments about how well the US responded to 9-11. Funny. America is still in Afghanistan. Some victory.

shiv wrote:I doubt if the Americans or Israelis are dumb enough to actually do a knee jerk counterattack unless they know they can actually punish. Pakistan typically prepares for a counter attack by evacuating camps and readying weapons to shoot back. They do not sit with thumb in Musharraf after a BAT attack. So the time and place of response is always selected carefully - by anyone Israelis Americans or Indians. That said neither Israel nor America have the need or the guts to hit an adversary as powerful as Pakistan. Israelis only have ragtag Palestinians (no airforce, no AWACS) and the US has never taken on a really powerful adversary after WW 2. They are too chicken to take on N. Korea, let alone Pakistan

Shiv ji, Israelis fought and won many wars against bigger and more powerful countries. Israel wouldn't have existed now on the map had they lost any of those wars (6 day war, Yom Kippur war etc). They even did Osirak, which had India done, you wouldn't have called pak as a powerful country today.

My reply was not about Israeli or Indian military history. It was specific to the idea that Israelis always have an instant response to an attack. The power and geographic spread of Palestine and Pakistan cannot be compared.

Making Pakistan==Palestine simply to try and show that India is incapable is specious nonsense

I do not subscribe to pointless rhetorical arguments like "If my aunt had a beard she would have been my uncle" or " If Babars father had a condom there would be no Pakistan today"

Only time it Israelis faced a professionally trained army with good leadership and clarity of objective, it almost lost the war. Remember the 1973 Yom-Kippur War? Israelis lost a staggering amount of aircraft and whole of Sinai.

it is said that the russians withheld replenishment supplies from egypt and syria to ensure that the war didn't actually finish with their victorythe israelis managed to hold the syrians on the golan but the sinai was a whole different story

In more recent times, Israel has not been able to subdue Hezbollah. The IDF had to withdraw, first from South Lebanon and then in 2006, fight an inconclusive 33 day war in Lebanon, where Hez fighters showed a greater willingness to die for their cause than the IDF's conscripts. Mossad has not been able to penetrate Hezbollah. Israel has had to resort to prisoner exchanges in a very lopsided ratio. In the West bank, despite a wall and every inch of territory being under drone surveillance, suicide bombers get through. 'We should do what Israel does', is not something I would automatically recommend.

rohitvats wrote:Only time it Israelis faced a professionally trained army with good leadership and clarity of objective, it almost lost the war. Remember the 1973 Yom-Kippur War? Israelis lost a staggering amount of aircraft and whole of Sinai.

I would put in a sightly different way. Israel suffered serious setbacks in the first 2 days of the '73 war, when Egypt and Syria achieved tactical surprise, Arab officers were able to follow a basic assault plan and their soldiers showed decent fighting spirit. The IAF lost 90+ aircraft on the first 2 days and made that up only by emergency US airlifts. While the IDF recovered - their stand on the Golan was among the greatest defensive battles in modern military history, I can't help thinking that if they were facing a Soviet tank army (of the same strength in equipment) instead of Syrians, Israel would have lost the Golan.

Regarding the promise of "we will give a befitting reply at time and place of our choosing"

1. One has to take this promise at face value. If it's given by the mickey mouse then we already know what it means. If it's given by a person or a government who has the track record of delivering (or at the very least trying to deliver) on the promises, we should be more trustful of our own government.

2. What porkies do is bait at their own suitable time. Why should we take the bait at their convenience? By now, as more informed citizens, we should know that knee jerk reaction is something NaMo never ever does. He never did that at least since 2002. He is a man who grew up learning (not *reading*) Shivaji. And Shivaji would be the last person to do a knee jerk reaction at enemy's convenience. Read how he killed Afzal.

3. This war with porkies is at least 70 years old, if not 800 years. Time and again we fought wars with half measures without a long term solution as an objective (the only regime who fought this war with a clear objective and plan was Marathas, again inspired by Shivaji). This govt has been in the power for just 3 years and we know what a pile of sh*t they have to clear before they could do anything meaningful in any area.

A BRF member is not required to be told that a war requires long preparations. Give the man his due time as there seems to be no one any better than him. Knowing where he comes from, I can safely say that he's a bigger jingo than all the jingos of BRF put together, and more.

kapilrdave wrote:Regarding the promise of "we will give a befitting reply at time and place of our choosing"

1. One has to take this promise at face value. If it's given by the mickey mouse then we already know what it means. If it's given by a person or a government who has the track record of delivering (or at the very least trying to deliver) on the promises, we should be more trustful of our own government.

2. What porkies do is bait at their own suitable time. Why should we take the bait at their convenience? By now, as more informed citizens, we should know that knee jerk reaction is something NaMo never ever does. He never did that at least since 2002. He is a man who grew up learning (not *reading*) Shivaji. And Shivaji would be the last person to do a knee jerk reaction at enemy's convenience. Read how he killed Afzal.

3. This war with porkies is at least 70 years old, if not 800 years. Time and again we fought wars with half measures without a long term solution as an objective (the only regime who fought this war with a clear objective and plan was Marathas, again inspired by Shivaji). This govt has been in the power for just 3 years and we know what a pile of sh*t they have to clear before they could do anything meaningful in any area.

A BRF member is not required to be told that a war requires long preparations. Give the man his due time as there seems to be no one any better than him. Knowing where he comes from, I can safely say that he's a bigger jingo than all the jingos of BRF put together, and more.

Shiv Aroor‏Verified account @ShivAroor 33m33 minutes agoMore Expect some big news from the Army in an hour on counter-terror operations along the LoC.

Wonder what it could be.

If it's in Kupwara or nearby areas in Kashmir, probably rleated to some big catch in recent ground domination exercise. If it's in Punch, Rajauri area, then probably another thing like surgical strike. Hoping for 2nd one.Edit: https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/866950000978219008BREAKING: Army formally reveals big punitive retaliatory strikes on Pakistan Army positions in Nowshera sector of J&K.

So Nowshera it is. This area was under heavy shelling by Pakis since last 7-8 days.

I hope Army does not relax , expect the Pakis to be up to thier usual mischief, 0-3 km of LOC on POK side must be made a no mans area, let these miltants have to run contionusly and be dead tired before they come anywhere near the LOC. Hope next time we can exterminate some these BAT teams and display corpses with a few accidentaly beheaded.

The Indian Army (IA) in an official statement has confirmed that it has undertaken punitive strikes against Pakistani Army (PA) posts along the Line of Control (LoC) in the Naushera sector of the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir (J&K). These strikes (chiefly fire assaults) have been directed against hardened Pakistani structures along the LoC that are used to provide fire support and other logistical support to terrorists infiltrating from the Pakistani side. Overall, the strikes represent a move by the IA to retain the ‘upper hand’, as it were, along the LoC, even as a spike in infiltration is expected and terrorists continue to inflict significant casualties on Indian soldiers involved in counter-insurgency operations.

Indeed, the IA of late has been worried about the so-called ‘kill ratio’ being experienced in the course of counter-terrorist operations, which refers to the ratio between the number of terrorists neutralized to the number of Indian troopers lost in operations. It is noteworthy that the IA’s press statement itself notes the operation that took place during 20-21 May in Naugam, J&K which saw 4 terrorists being neutralized for the loss of 3 IA personnel.

The Indian Army (IA) in an official statement has confirmed that it has undertaken punitive strikes against Pakistani Army (PA) posts along the Line of Control (LoC) in the Naushera sector of the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir (J&K). These strikes (chiefly fire assaults) have been directed against hardened Pakistani structures along the LoC that are used to provide fire support and other logistical support to terrorists infiltrating from the Pakistani side. Overall, the strikes represent a move by the IA to retain the ‘upper hand’, as it were, along the LoC, even as a spike in infiltration is expected and terrorists continue to inflict significant casualties on Indian soldiers involved in counter-insurgency operations.

Indeed, the IA of late has been worried about the so-called ‘kill ratio’ being experienced in the course of counter-terrorist operations, which refers to the ratio between the number of terrorists neutralized to the number of Indian troopers lost in operations. It is noteworthy that the IA’s press statement itself notes the operation that took place during 20-21 May in Naugam, J&K which saw 4 terrorists being neutralized for the loss of 3 IA personnel.

Good but still waiting for heads. That report on lapses, operational procedures on why the army and BSF jawans were beheaded is typical bureaucracy speak.

The widow of BSF jawan had said - Dont want compensation but Want 50 Heads. Still waiting for those 100 heads .