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Steve Dinan is a well respected name in BMW tuning. His products are well engineered, well tested, and backed up with his warranty. They also are overpriced and regularly from a pure performance perspective beaten by offerings from other tuners. There is a 'Dinan' tax so to speak on the parts and he seems to aim for the more casual BMW enthusiast rather than the hardcore market. There is nothing wrong with that and Dinan also has shown they are capable of building motors that power Grand-Am teams to victory in Motorsport so higher level skill is certainly there than what is displayed by the street car offerings. However, he also is given full control of those ECU's through BMW Motorsport.

Dinan sells flash tunes. It is in his best interest to put piggybacks down and make them appear cheap or inferior. However, he is right that flash tuning allows a greater degree of accuracy and it is more difficult. Full control of a BMW DME through flashing is harder to achieve than using a piggyback to alter the signals the ECU sees.

There are merits to both approaches including negatives to both approaches. BimmerBoost features vendors that sell products based on both tuning approaches. Steve Dinan does not mention any tuners using both approaches simultaneously omitting a vital area that should be included in his argument. He also does not mention any of the plusses to a piggyback that his flash tunes can not match such as changing boost maps on the fly or meth injection flow safeties. Some tuners are readily combining both approaches to get the best of both worlds so to speak.

Steve says the ECU is 'lied to' by piggybacks. Saying it is lying rather than modifying the signal is excessively negative terminology that is not really appropriate from a professional. He also states when the boost is raised from 9 psi to 14 psi in his example the car is using fuel for 9 psi instead of 14 psi and timing for 9 psi instead of 14 psi. The ECU then is forced to compensate.

The factory DME's are capable of adjusting fuel and timing on the fly with the piggybacks. This seems like an odd scare tactic from Dinan considering the amount of miles BimmerBoost members have successfully logged with piggyback tunes. Additionally, even without a piggyback tune the stock DME in modern BMW's is constantly adjusting timing and boost. What does he thinks happens when the cars go into high elevation?

His points about the transmission slipping and the stability control not working are comments that are really reaching. BimmerBoost has yet to see a piggyback user lose their stability control or have the trans slip for any reason other than too much torque thanks to the tune.

Steve is right that he has a large computer science department at Dinan. He hires some very talented students from top engineering schools to work for him paying them large salaries. He has some very powerful computers working 24/7 at cracking BMW DME's. However, even he does not have control of all the functions of the factory DME in modern BMW's so slighting piggybacks for not having full control either seems unfair. Why not let the DME do the functions it does best and alter only those that need to be altered? A piggyback does that and his flash tunes also do that. They just go about it in different ways.

Dinan says they can do things others can not. BimmerBoost has yet to see Dinan do anything on par with other tuners in the street BMW scene. His offerings are consistently outperformed for less money. Yes, he cracked the N63 V8 quickly but since then so have others either thanks to help from someone inside BMW or by getting their hands on the codes in whatever manner they did. What is it Dinan can do that anyone else can't exactly? Where are their projects that blow everyone else away? What performance records do any of their street cars actually hold?

The DME reports engine load to the trans controller, trans controller uses this info for plate pressure etc. with a piggyback, the DME reports stock load values because that is what it sees. Depending on the actual engine load, it could be producing enough torque to overcome the friction because the Trans controller is not increasing pressure (because it believes it is only attempting to hold stock torque levels)

The DME reports engine load to the trans controller, trans controller uses this info for plate pressure etc. with a piggyback, the DME reports stock load values because that is what it sees. Depending on the actual engine load, it could be producing enough torque to overcome the friction because the Trans controller is not increasing pressure (because it believes it is only attempting to hold stock torque levels)

So isn't this where a backend flash would come in for the DCT specifically to raise the line pressure and clamping force?

The complaints about dinan being a poor "bang for buck" are getting old. Everyone knows this. I agree, sticky, that steve should have used different words, etc. in his vid. I believe the dinan tax comes from the warranty and a g-power-esk, well-sorted kit. You're paying for the peace of mind that it's a "total package" that works. Its market is business men who want performance but want a peace of mind.

There is nothing wrong with that and Dinan also has shown they are capable of building motors that power Grand-Am teams to victory in Motorsport so higher level skill is certainly there than what is displayed by the street car offerings.

Dinan had trouble building a reliable S65 based engine for the series, switching from the very successful 5.0L. The 4.5L was quick when it stayed together, I think Chip had enough of the reliability concerns and pulled the plug. Although Steve is saying Chip just got a better deal from Ford.

Steve Dinan is continuing his motorsports engine programs. Continuing development on the old 5.0L and the newer 4.5L (that is now actually 4.7L). Also working on the N20 for the ST class and new M3 TT6 motor for GS.

Dinan had trouble building a reliable S65 based engine for the series, switching from the very successful 5.0L. The 4.5L was quick when it stayed together, I think Chip had enough of the reliability concerns and pulled the plug. Although Steve is saying Chip just got a better deal from Ford.

The S65's won in their debut. I didn't follow the reliability of the Dinan motors, what happened?

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC

Steve Dinan is continuing his motorsports engine programs. Continuing development on the old 5.0L and the newer 4.5L (that is now actually 4.7L). Also working on the N20 for the ST class and new M3 TT6 motor for GS.

They also have plans of P2 effort with the P65.

Very good post and information.

They took it to 4.7 too, interesting. Guess because they are rpm limited they wanted more torque.

This is the same presentation Steve has been making for years. I watched it at Bimmerfest maybe five years ago. There are some truths to what he is saying but the devil is always in the details and he glanced over the various application specific details that allow piggybacks to provide the same or improved reliability compared to their flash tunes.

The exact same can be said about piggy's.. if the builder doesn't know what to do/the limits, you have a blown/bad running motor.

To a degree as you're influencing factory programming, not changing it. Factory DME tuning requires far more skill. It isn't even close honestly.

Originally Posted by Flinchy

and what do you mean?.. the N63 doesn't have DME access, hence no turbo upgrades?? :/

Programming the ECU and full control are two different things. We are just getting to the point now where the S54 can have a factory DME tuned turbo. It takes someone with major skill to pull that off. Plugging in a piggy won't accomplish it.

$30k for a Stroked BMW engine would be reasonable here in Australia lol. I build evo engines that are $35k and 2000hp 2JZ drag engines that are around $80k. You guys have it too good there hahaha

You could probably build a stroked S54 for <$20-$25k? haha

$8200 for a 3.4 or 3.5 stroker from VAC.. another $10k in work and misc parts?.. sounds good to me

2000hp for $80k is also pretty cheap imo, and probably similar to over in the states... things like titan motors cost the same no matter where you get them.. that is to say, $$$$$$ haha... 2j's have such a huge following over there though, however the base cars cost way more.... and same for said built evo.. 2.4 stroker or something? those things are stout and make insane power, regularly see 800-900whp out of them, i think $35k for that is also a bargain haha.

Originally Posted by Terry@BMS

This is the same presentation Steve has been making for years. I watched it at Bimmerfest maybe five years ago. There are some truths to what he is saying but the devil is always in the details and he glanced over the various application specific details that allow piggybacks to provide the same or improved reliability compared to their flash tunes.

Yeah i find it strange that instead of taking the high road and going for a better product.. he takes the low road and largely baselessly attacks the competition.. because he's losing.

Originally Posted by Sered

I'll bet money right now that given full DME control, that there's quite a few tuners out there that would blow away Dinan. Hell, the N54 world they already can using the Cobb and that's still not full control.

Dinan's products are overrated and overpriced. The only thing that it tells me is someone was dumb enough to pay big money for mediocre gains.

Well the n54 is pretty decently controlled at least? not as full as it could be i guess, yeah, but they're constantly finding/trying to find new tables that are useful at least haha

To a degree as you're influencing factory programming, not changing it. Factory DME tuning requires far more skill. It isn't even close honestly.

Programming the ECU and full control are two different things. We are just getting to the point now where the S54 can have a factory DME tuned turbo. It takes someone with major skill to pull that off. Plugging in a piggy won't accomplish it.

I can't agree with that, but fair enough.. again with the proviso that manual hex editing is definitely in it's own league of skill... but comparing say JB4 vs cobb tuning, you can't say the JB4 is a simple piece of gear to develop?

Well, yeah that's true.. even the piggies for the *63 motors aren't fully developed though