And I’m actually laughing at this latest display of Gerdian mendacity.

Gerdes:

Simplified and clarified.

Lighter and tighter.

So easy, even a retard like Roberta should be able to figure it out.

We have an exact kind of evidence.

We have an exact amount of evidence.

We have an exact location where the evidence has to be located / proven to exist.

I must have missed something, because the only thing new I found on the site of the National Association of Fish-wives, Cretins and Screaming Hysterics (members: Gerdes, Gerdes, and Gerdes) is this:

For locating / proving the existence of - just ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of the alleged bone fragments.

which raises a number of questions:

1. What amount of bone fragments (not human remains of all kinds, just bone fragments) is supposed to have been "alleged" at either camp? If your calculations "derived from figures used by Arnulf Neumaier in The Treblinka Holocaust" are supposed to refer to bone fragments alone (to the exclusion of other types of remains mentioned in the following question), please show us how you did these calculations.

2. Why so particular about bone fragments, all of a sudden? What about other types of human remains, like ashes of bone or tissue, teeth, whole bones, and whole bodies in wax-fat transformation? Do they not count anymore? If so, why not?

3. What would you accept as proof that a certain minimum amount of bone fragments lies in the area? Will a substantiated calculation based on a crime site investigator's or an archaeologist's report about remains lying above or beneath the ground be sufficient? Or do you want a detailed physical quantification of excavated bone fragments, separated for this purpose from the soil, wood ash and human ashes surrounding them?

4. Why does the challenge refer to Treblinka and Sobibor alone and not to Belzec, although Belzec was also an extermination camp of the Aktion Reinhard(t) murder operation? What was the criterion – other than cowardly convenience – for leaving Belzec out of the challenge?

Please answer these questions, Mr. Gerdes.

Anyway, I must thank you already for not only living up to my prediction, see post # 1276 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p=844116&postcount=1276 :

Again, my prediction is that the update of the NAFCASH challenge

• Will consist in removing the "exact location of a mass grave" requirement (big fucking deal as concerns Sobibor, where the exact location of at least four mass graves can be made out with the naked eye on a satellite photograph, see under http://maps.pomocnik.com/satellite-maps/?map=4194, that was kindly provided by Gerdes himself) and demanding "only" that proof of human remains corresponding to x number of victims at Sobibor or Treblinka be provided;

• Will not contain a statement as to what will be accepted as proof of human remains corresponding to x number of victims at Sobibor or Treblinka. Specifying his proof requirements is something that charlatan Gerdes avoids like vampires avoid garlic (hence his having not replied to my blog article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/09/muehlenkamp-accepts-nafcashs-challenge.html), which means that the challenge will remain the same hoax it was before.

And a hoax it will remain even if Gerdes should make the "just one percent" into "just 1/10th of one percent", because what can be proven more or less easily depends not on the amount of human amounts to be proven but on the standards of proof applied.

but even exceeding my expectations, as concerns your mendacity and cowardice, by limiting the type of human remains relevant for meeting the challenge requirements to bone fragments alone.

Gerdes:

(And it could all be located / proven to exist by a blind man with a toy plastic shovel.)

For someone who calls himself a "forensic historian", you have a particularly infantile idea of the difficulties involved in finding and quantifying partial human remains contained in a mass grave.

Let’s take a look at the "6.351 million pounds" of human remains at Treblinka (or is that only bone fragments, Mr. Gerdes?) that you try to impress suckers with.

First of all, your calculation is wrong. Even 870,000 human beings (the documented number is more like 750,000) weighing 45 kg on average (a gross exaggeration, considering that deportees to Treblinka were mostly women, children and skinny old folks) would have left behind no more than 870,000 x 45 x 5 % = 1,957,500 kg of cremation remains, the 5 % being based on Mattogno’s experimental data. That’s 4.316 million pounds, not 6.351 million.

Second and more important, and as I have explained before, what matters for how easy or how difficult it is to find human remains is not their weight but their volume in relation to the total volume of the mass graves they were returned to.

Let’s assume for a moment that your 6.351 million pounds are correct. 6,351,000 pounds are 2,880,765 kilograms or 2,881 tons of human cremation remains. The volume of this mass of human cremation remains, again according to Mattogno’s data, would be 5,762 cubic meters. Even if at Treblinka they managed to bury the bodies at a concentration of 15 per cubic meter before cremating them (which is not improbable, although Mattogno considers 8 per cubic meter to be the maximum, at least when it suits him), 870,000 dead bodies would have occupied 58,000 cubic meters of grave space prior to cremation. If 5,762 cubic meters of cremation remains were returned to 58,000 cubic meters of grave space together with wood ash and soil, the human cremation remains would make up less than ten per cent of the volume of the mass graves. Assuming Mattogno’s 8 corpses per cubic meter, the burial volume would be 108,750 cubic meters, and the cremation remains would occupy a mere 5.30 % of the total volume. And that’s assuming that all cremation remains were returned to the graves and none were scattered in the woods or somewhere else.

This alone means that finding human remains in the mass graves at Treblinka is not exactly a piece of cake. But before on starts excavating – which as concerns Treblinka would require removal of the memorial stones and their foundation in at least as substantial part of the area, something I doubt that anyone will grant permission for – one first has to precisely locate the mass graves in the area, which – unlike at Belzec and also at Sobibor – has not yet been done at Treblinka. And after one has excavated soil containing cremation remains, it will be necessary to separate the human remains from the soil and wood ashes they are mixed with, in order to quantify them. This is obviously easier as concerns bone fragments than as concerns ashes, where such separation is extremely difficult if not impossible, but it’s still a lot of work.

If what you want is 6,351 pounds of bone fragments from Treblinka or 1,825 pound of bone fragments from Sobibor (please confirm that this is what you’re asking for), and if the evidence you demand as proof is a precise physical quantification of excavated remains (please confirm that this is so, or specify what other evidence you would accept as proof), there’s a good chance (assuming that permission and piety issues can be solved) that at least the quantity you demand will sooner or later be excavated and recorded. But claiming that it’s something "a blind man with a toy plastic shovel" could do only shows, once more, just how far from the real world the kindergarten cloud-cuckoo-land of Greg Gerdes is.

Gerdes:

So what are you waiting for faggot?

Right now I’m waiting for self-projecting-as-usual Gerdes to answer my above questions:

1. What amount of bone fragments (not human remains of all kinds, just bone fragments) is supposed to have been "alleged" at either camp? If your calculations "derived from figures used by Arnulf Neumaier in The Treblinka Holocaust" are supposed to refer to bone fragments alone (to the exclusion of other types of remains mentioned in the following question), please show us how you did these calculations.

2. Why so particular about bone fragments, all of a sudden? What about other types of human remains, like ashes of bone or tissue, teeth, whole bones, and whole bodies in wax-fat transformation? Do they not count anymore? If so, why not?

3. What would you accept as proof that a certain minimum amount of bone fragments lies in the area? Will a substantiated calculation based on a crime site investigator's or an archaeologist's report about remains lying above or beneath the ground be sufficient? Or do you want a detailed physical quantification of excavated bone fragments, separated for this purpose from the soil, wood ash and human ashes surrounding them?

4. Why does the challenge refer to Treblinka and Sobibor alone and not to Belzec, although Belzec was also an extermination camp of the Aktion Reinhard(t) murder operation? What was the criterion – other than cowardly convenience – for leaving Belzec out of the challenge?

Gerdes:

What's wrong - 1/10th of 1% too hard for you?

How hard or how easy it is, as I said before, depends on what standards of proof you apply.

If you apply reasonable standards of proof, then proving that quantity of human remains at Treblinka is a piece of cake. All it takes is the following excerpt from the Polish site investigation report of 29 December 1945, which is part of exhibit A.3.1.4 in my post # 172 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p=793471&postcount=172 :

In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.

If the layer of ashes and sand was only 2 centimeters high and half of that was human ashes – two rather conservative assumptions – we have 20,000 x 0,01 = 200 cubic meters of human ashes. 200 cubic meters of ashes, according to Mattogno (as quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/05/carlo-mattogno-on-belzec_30.html ) correspond to 100 tons of ashes. 100 tons of ashes, also according to Mattogno, correspond to a live weight of 2,000 tons or 2,000,000 kg. 2,000,000 kg, assuming a somewhat exaggerated average weight of 45 kg per person, as Mattogno does, correspond to well over 40,000 human beings. Even assuming a ridiculously unrealistic average of 60 kg per person, they would correspond to well over 30,000 dead bodies.

But let’s be even more generous and assume, contrary to what the above-quoted site investigation report tells us, that only 20 % of the ashes mixed with sand that covered the area were human ashes, the rest being wood ash. That would give us 40 cubic meters or 20 tons of ashes lying above the ground in this area. 20 tons of ashes = 400 tons or 400,000 kg of live weight. At a somewhat exaggerated 45 kg per person, that’s almost 8,900 people. Even at a ridiculously exaggerated 60 kg per person, it’s almost 6,700 people. And what you’re now calling for is 870 for Treblinka, 250 for Sobibor. Better think your bullshit over again.

Of course, if you want a precise physical quantification of human remains separated for this purpose from the soil and wood ashes they are probably mixed with after all the robbery-digging that took place in the area of these camps, you’ll have to wait at least until excavation is done in the mass graves at Sobibor. This requires a special permission from the Polish government, which the SAP is doing its best to obtain.

Gerdes:

BTW, if you have any questions about what the definition of:

locate / proven to exist

Means, contact the "SKEPTICS" Society / "SKEPTIC" Magazine.

Unless Gerdes pledges to accept and submit to the criteria of SKEPTIC magazine (do you, Mr. Gerdes?), he’s just running away from my question like the whimpering coward he has amply shown to be. The question, included in the above list of questions, is the following:

What would you accept as proof that a certain minimum amount of bone fragments lies in the area? Will a substantiated calculation based on a crime site investigators’ or an archaeologist’s description of remains lying above or beneath the ground be sufficient? Or do you want a detailed physical quantification of excavated bone fragments, separated for this purpose from the soil, wood ash and human ashes surrounding them?

Gerdes:

And no, it doesn't mean:

"Assumptions based on estimates based on descriptions."

That’s "estimates based on evidence, such as descriptions contained in crime site investigation reports or archaeological reports", as filthy liar Gerdes well knows.

How more often are you going to repeat this mendacious misrepresentation of my argument, Mr. Gerdes? Guess I’ll start counting your lies again from now on, as I used to do in our early Topix discussions.

Gerdes:

(What are you - retarded, or what?)

That’s a question you no longer even have to ask yourself, Mr. Gerdes. Your behavior has long answered it positively.

Gerdes’ bigmouthed babbling in his CODOH post (where he left out the self-projecting invective that is probably meant to get applause from the VNN knuckle-draggers) must have impressed the aptly named "MrNobody", who in his post of Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 pm uttered the following wisdom:

You know that when they have exhausted all their arguments, they are just going to claim they are unable to access the site for a Forensic study because it would be "Sacrilegious" to do so.

Chicken will have teeth before knowledgeable opponents of "Revisionist" BS exhaust all their arguments, especially against the likes of Gerdes and "MrNobody". As to the "sacrilegious" thing, concerns about respect for the dead are indeed an issue that has somewhat hampered archaeological research at the former extermination camps – but not to the extent of preventing archaeological investigations that led to identifying the mass graves and establishing their size and contents, namely at Chelmno, at Belzec (both of which camps, incidentally, have disappeared from the NAFCASH challenge – Gerdes must have got cold feet) and at Sobibor, though in regard to the latter the absence of a published detailed report on archaeological findings still feeds "Revisionist" conspiracy theories and other rhetoric. As I have been informed by Yoram Haimi, director of the Sobibor Archaeological Project, efforts are under way to overcome "holy ground" considerations, on the part of the Polish government, that stand in the way of excavating the known mass grave areas.

"MrNobody" continues:

Greg, the best part about your site is that it is a Debate Stopper, many times on blogs & youtube videos I have demolished the opposition by simply asking them to take up your NAFCASH Challenge, putting an end to denial & earning $100,000 to boot!

Needless to say, they never have a comeback.

Somehow I cannot picture this feeble-minded bigmouth venturing into open debate and shooting his bull outside the warm and cozy CODOH Führerbunker.

But if he does, he is cordially invited to try his "Debate Stopper" rhetoric on me, be it on VNN, on RODOH or on another forum of his choice. As I have no access to CODOH, Gerdes will be requested to extend my invitation to "MrNobody", as I have previously requested him to invite Jonni "Hannover" Hargis to VNN for a chat with me. Of course I don’t expect Gerdes, whose cowardice is only matched by that of Hargis, to ever comply with either request.