I am in the center of a dilema- mountaineering tent vs backpack tent. My current tent is the TarpTent Moment. It has condensation issues, but really works just fine for the Sierra. I am headed for a 37-day off-trail backpack in the Wind River Mtns. The last time I was in the Winds, I used the MSR MicroZoid and the Mountain Hardware Approach (a mountaineerint tent). After my epic last summer in the Tarptent Moment during a severe short-term storm (4 inches rain in 1 hour), I am not feeling very comfortable about the Moment in the Wind Rivers. I have a alpine bivy sack that I can add for backup, making my total shelter weight 3 lbs 8 oz. I am wondering if I cannot find a tent that would be less total weight and offer the same protection. Much of my camping will be above timberline, 11,000 foot range, with daily afternoon thunderstorms and REALLY HIGH WINDS. PS. The Moment is well used, zipper has had problems too. Oregon Mouse has offered many useful suggestions (I PM'd her because she KNOWS what the Wind Rivers are like!). Tent of choice = Heilleberg Anjan2, $570 - OUCH!!!. Wind, intense hail and rain are more of an issue than snow, so I am not talking exactly about a 4-season tent. I could also spend $240 and buy a bivy that is 7 oz lighter than what I have. Lots of $$ for a few oz. weight savings.

I am not convinced that UL gear is safe in mountaineering conditions. Convince me otherwise.

WD$240 to save 7 ounces is not too cost effective at over $500 per ounce to save weight - better to save weight in the new tent. I think you use the tarp because you like the space, so I'm not sure how you would feel about the solo - double tent thing as far as space. When I started carrying a $500 pack I decided to buy a big enough tent to keep my pack inside it with all of my gear.

I know its non-obtainium but my favorite UL tent for the last 20 years has been a SD Flash Magic - a single walled version of the flash-light that weighs 3 pounds 4 ounces with the stakes and everything. Its barely large enough to hold me and the pack but it works. (backpack tent)

I have an original Bibler Eldorado and I can attest to its ability to stand up to ANYTHING mother nature can throw at it. The roof vents are awesome but it weighs 4 pounds 5 ounces and I do not know what the available versions might weigh. I am taking it snow camping in the Three Sisters Tuesday night for an expected snow storm. (mountaineering tent)

I would feel better above tree line with the potential for strong winds and storm to be in a dome tent with three poles crossing over me. This is the most wind proof silent tent design. The Biblers with 2 crossed poles are lighter and ceertainly strong enough, but they do flap a bit in the wind if it comes from the wrong direction.

I'm not sure I would want a tent with any mesh in the body - thinking of the spindrift problem.

I saw a nice montebell solo tent on ebay - 2.5 pounds.Jim

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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

Jim, I do not need lots of room. I did not go to the TarpTent for the room, rather for the 2-pound weight and the vestibule which provides wind protection when cooking. In fact the TarpTentMoment is really too big for me. What I did not expect was the excessive condensation which then "rains" inside as heavy winds and rain beat down. Fine when one can be sure of a nice sunny warm next morning; not so good when you awake to several more days of near freezing temps and winds. I do not think the TarpTentMoment will fall down or blow away in a wind, but living in it during a severe storm is disconcerning as I watch water accumulate on my down sleeping bag. It has one large pole and in a heavy side wind it does get distorted pretty signficantly. The headroom is nice to sit up in, but the profile is a bit too high for wind.

I hear a rumor that when Black Diamond bought out Bibler, they changed the material in the tents. Is that correct? Someone said the BD tents are not waterproof and are more appropriate for snow than heavy continous rain.

It does snow a bit, but the more serious concern is very intense lightning storms when within an hour you get nearly 6 inches of hail and then a few inches of rain, all the while the wind is blowing like crazy. I have previously used a North Face BullFrog - another bombproof but heavy tent. Tunnel, 2-3 hoop tents seem to do well.

We actually have a bomb-proof 4-season Mountain Hardware Spire, but at nearly 6 pounds, it is just too heavy for me alone. Fine if I have someone with me to share the weight. We also have a bomb-proof Marmot expedtion tent (7 pounds) and a Mountain Hardware Trango4 (huge and about 12 pounds). I am set for base camp at 14,000 feet as long as a helicopter takes me in! One reason I am so frustrated is that I have a closet FULL expensive high quality tents and none are what I really need. All these tents were purchased in our mountaineering days when we always went in larger groups.

Oh, I have looked at the Montbell solo tents - they are the one length-wise pole variety that get flattened in wind. All the pole designs on the Big Agnes tents also collapse in high winds. The only two pole configurations that I like are the tunnel tent 2-hoops or the criss-cross variety (like the Black Diamond tents - and our MH Spire).

We mountaineering types LIKE high altitude routes. The entire PURPOSE of my trip is to stay high and run the Continental Divide. I have days that I am above timber the entire time. Sorry, I am not going to hunker down in the timber. In alpine terrain, as in lower terrain, there are microclimates that are more protected than other places, and obviously, you seek these for campsites.

There really are no hiding places from typical Rocky Mountain tunderstorms. During the "season" they roll in from one to three per day. Lightning also strikes in timber. No, you do not want to be up on a pass as a human lightning rod, but you can camp above timber without being a lightning rod. As for wind, it blows everywhere. Furthermore, due to the bark beetle infestation, a lot of timbered locations are actually less safe!

Wind is simply something you need to deal with, which includes having wind-worthy equipment. Whether you are heading up to climb a peak or just backpacking in "mountaineering conditions", you need "mountaineering" quality equipment. There is an overlap in backpack and mountaineering tents. It is in that overlap area that I am looking at tents. The trend in all shelters, including mountaineering tents, is to go lighter. In some cases lighter does not sacrafice strength, in many more cases it does. Tent failure in mild conditions is an inconvience; in mountaineering conditions it can be lethal. Since I am going solo, and in places where people are not going to just meander upon me if I get into trouble (typically I will not see anyone for 4-5 days), I am looking for a little more margin of safety.

Perhaps I should have posted in the mountaineering section of the forum.

We mountaineering types LIKE high altitude routes. The entire PURPOSE of my trip is to stay high and run the Continental Divide. I have days that I am above timber the entire time. Sorry, I am not going to hunker down in the timber. In alpine terrain, as in lower terrain, there are microclimates that are more protected than other places, and obviously, you seek these for campsites.

Daisy, I faced the same dilemma as you up here. My tent of choice for what you describe is pretty simple, weighs just about 1 kilo, it's a Black Diamond one Shot:

Freestanding, good poles, takes a snow load and a wind beating when staked out fully.

Unfortunately - they are no longer made - they do make the firstlight, which is a small two man, but unfortunately weighs a full pound more than this one does. You may be able to find one on Ebay - you'll note in the "for sale" section I am looking for anyone who has one (people who have decided it's too heavy for an ultralight tent, and don't do stuff all exposed may not want this tent)

I also have a skylight - for two person camping with the better half.

Black diamond seems to have a good balance between light and tough on their lighter models.

I also have a SMD lunar solo - great (and lighter) when I know I will have trees or something to cut the wind a bit. but If I know I'm gonna be doing stuff like what's in those pics, I take the black diamond. I'm amazed at how comfotableI am in it on a half length prolite plus in raging rockies thunderstorm.

My plans this summer are for a GDT section hike from Jasper to the boundary of banff park through white goat, I'll be taking the black diamond for that - lots of up high exposed camping - followed by a limestone lakes trip, which even though up high will be a hammock trip (there's an epicly wonderful site) and then a trip up over glacier to a basin north of invermere - the Black Diamond will go on that too..

Oh, and WRT the materiel - BD changed the original "ToddTex" of the full weight bibler tents.. The light ones I think are still the same or similar.

the light ones all advertise as "breathable" - it is still a single wall tent - I have found with the one shot it is pretty good. - better than pure silnylon for condensation - that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I have found it pretty good at that (very good in my books) when set up with the top vents under those "eaves" opened up a bit - and the eaves are such that they can generally be left open a bit unless you have a full on typhoon hitting the tent side on.

(the new firstlight has the same design as the oneshot - just bigger).

I've also spent many an exposed evening in a friend's tarptent SCARP 2 - it does qualify as something that will take a beating, although I feel better in the black diamond, that thing, staked down with the cross poles does take a beating from a severe thunderstorm and lots of rain very well. I wouldn't call it a "mountaineering tent" - but it ishead and shoulders in beefyness above the other regular tarptents.

the SCARP 1 might be a possibility - but it's 1.36 KG - not much less than the black diamond firstlight (and more than my oneshot)

Lakatohason, there are many places in the Wind Rivers where you have to camp above timberline, unless you want to hike horrendous miles out of your way. That doesn't mean you camp on an exposed ridge, but even "down in the valley" is above timberline! Besides, a lot of the timber in the Winds is dead thanks to the bark beetle, so even below timberline, often the only safe place to camp is out in the open. I've also seen lightning strike--and explode--trees in the middle of a relatively level forest, so just getting below timberline is not necessarily safe! Also, W_D has more experience than very probably all of the rest of us put together because she worked as a NOLS instructor for many years.

For what it's worth, I've used silnylon tents--including your Lunar Solo, phat--in windy exposed locations with no difficulty. I would say gusts to at least 40 mph. I've also had dog and grandkids run full speed through the guylines with no ill effects (at least not to the tent!). It's amazingly strong fabric even though it doesn't look that way. One editor on BPL makes his own tunnel tents out of silnylon and has used them in Australia in up to 100 kph gales. I mentioned that in my PM to W_D. However, I know that W_D is uncomfortable with her Moment tent and with condensation. I personally wouldn't get a Moment (even if my dog Hysson and I would fit into one, which we wouldn't) because of the low ceiling over the head end, which I have found produces a lot more internal condensation. I wouldn't recommend that anyone go out with gear they're uncomfortable with! A good night's sleep is, IMHO, one of the most important things to consider. A backpacking trip is, after all, supposed to be a vacation, not an exercise in spending sleepless nights gritting one's teeth!

One thing that would help the wind-resistance of the Moment--and I know that a number of Moment users do this--is to add side guylines half-way up the pole. Of course that won't help the condensation issue! If you have to camp out in the open down in a valley, which you almost always do in the Winds, then condensation will definitely be an issue.

Edited by OregonMouse (06/25/1202:30 PM)

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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

I would never stick my nose up at a cheap tent! My old 1-person tent was the 2#9oz MSR Microzoid that I bought on sale at Sport Challet for $140. Albeit not the most comfortable tent, it was bombproof, until it wore out. Not sure why, but the fly seemed suceptible to UV rays and when it started to leak, it was almost a universal seepage all over the fly. By the time it "died" zippers were broken, poles bent and fly leaked. It was discontinued because of its size - but that "flaw" was perfect for me - an adequate size for a small person. I got a lot of miles out of that $140 tent!

My ratty, low profile Microzoid:

I do use the guylines on the Tarptent Moment. I also back up the ends and side guylines by tying around HUGE rocks, in addition to the pegs. The Moment has been stable in winds, but the height and size puts up a large area for the wind to hit. There is a fair distance between the front and back tie-downs and the perpendicular middle hoop. When wet, sil-nylon stretches and high winds bow the sides inward - both creating "splash" and forcing the sides against my sleeping bag. I have not figured out how to tighten the tent without getting out in the rain. And in a wind storm with rain, you have to zip up the vestibule- which creates even more condensation. So it is not my fear of the Moment actually tearing apart or flying off into space -I just find that it performs poorly with respect to keeping stuff dry inside. Not soaking, but things get damp. And the minute it freezes, it is shades of Dr. Zhivago inside the old mansion full of hoarfrost! Then the wind blows again, and it snows inside. Actually if I were to put the Dr. Zhivago soundtrack on my I-pod shuffle. Needless to say I do not feel very confident when going through those conditions!

ALL tents have a failure point. You hear of mountaineering tents being shredded on Mt.Everest. But what tents are made of and the design of the tent DOES make a big differnce.

Phat - NOLS uses the Black Diamond MegaMids in the Wind Rivers for their 30-day courses. These are both weather-bombproof and "student-proof"- able to withstand all the abuse of novice backpackers.

Last time my husband I were there we used our 4-season Mountain Hardware Spire- advertised as a 5-pound tent but by the time you add all the pegs, line, etc it is closer to 6 pounds - shown below. We have never had any problems with this tent. It is just too heavy for me alone.

I considered the BD Epic fabric series as nice options for (more or less) self-standing, compact and light tents for alpine places where pitching space is tight. Unfortunately I've not read much complementary feedback about them since the switch from Epic to "NanoShield", which is reputed to both collect condensation and wet though in very heavy weather.

Having said all that, the I-Tent might be worth considering. Life above treeline suggests something compact, simple, wind-resistent and easy to pitch and the I-Tent has earned its reputation as all three. Probably better is the new ID MK2 Lite, which is eVent--the best WPB fabric at present. You'd need to figure out where to get one, as they can't ship to California.

While these tents are pretty costy, in crappy enough weather they "pay" for themselves on the spot.

[p.s. Has Apple sued BD yet for selling the "I Tent" or are they in the clear because it's an upper case "I"?]

I can't comment about mountaineering tents, but I do like your one Shot tent a lot.

A friend has a similar cross pole design 2-person tent and it's easy to set up, and works great as a free standing tent in on our rocky terrain here.

Looks like the vents in the side panels should work pretty good to help keep it dry inside.

The advantages of the ease of set-up with that design are pretty hard to resist and the size of that one looks about perfect for solo going. The new design has an option for a vestibule, but I don't think I'd want or need it for the way I backpack.

W_D, that trips sounds amazing... It's hard to even imagine taking off, solo, into the wilderness for that long. I have never been away from family and work for that long, and beside that, I wore myself out going to the garden and back this afternoon

WDthe tent materials have changed a lot. The little BD tent phat is showing off is a take-off the Bibler Awahnee, a nice design with a big window. The Toddtex was amazing stuff, my Eldorado is made of it. If I were going on your trip I would definitely take the Toddtex Eldorado at 69 ounces. It represents a safe haven in extremes at altitude.

Oh yes I wanted to say that for such a long trip that high you will need to consider the cookability of any tent that you use since you will surely end up coooking in it. What kind of stove will you use?

Jim

_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

For what it's worth, I've used silnylon tents--including your Lunar Solo, phat--in windy exposed locations with no difficulty. I would say gusts to at least 40 mph.

Oh, I've had that lunar solo out in winds more than 40 mph.. The night I set up here in whitegoat:

I had a newb in the lunar solo, and fading light, so I taught him how to set it up with a good pitch, the wind was *howling* and told him to get in his bag and warm up and wait for me (while I set up the BD). I lost it a couple times in the wind before getting poles in and staked down, as Simon described it - he was sitting in his tent hearing "fXXX.. fXXX.. fXXX. fXXX..." as I would run across the meadow chasing my tent half in the dark

I've definately had both of them out in adverse conditions, and believe me, I don't take an extra 550 grams of tent lightly - but I really do love that little BD's ability to shrug off the worst weather - heck the last trip I had it on I think I was carrying about a 10.5 pound base weight. So yeah, I coulda shaved a pound by carrying the smd. Meh - I slept very well in a thunderstorm

Phat is absolutly correct about setting up. Even in a light wind the Tarptent Moment wants to "take flight like a kite" and setting up is a challenge for one person. It does however set up really tight, once up. Stretch in rain is a problem, but that simply is sil-nylon - not a flaw in the tent design.

Jim- the large wind protected vestibule of the Moment was one reason I choose this tent. I use a snow-peak stove but have a home-made wind screen that works very well. I really hate to eat inside a tent - I am such a sloppy eater- usually spill something so unless it is really bad weather, I just put on rain clothes and go outside and find a little wind sheltered spot to cook and eat. A potential "kitchen" is one of my main criteria for choosing a campsite! Ever since I have had a stove blow up on me, I am even more reluctant to cook inside the tent. In fact I have NEVER cooked inside a tent, just in the vestibule a few times. But Murphy's Law is typical - storms always occur just at dinnertime! I usually just change my idea of "dinner" - eat next days trailfood then cook previous night's dinner on the trail. It is not like it's constantly bad weather - typically mornings are crystal clear, clouds build up from noon - 2PM, then several short intense storms blow through until about 8PM, clouds clear, clear-cold nights.

I especially wouldn't want to cook or eat in my tent in grizzly bear country--and grizz have now been spotted all over the Winds, the latest confirmed report that I heard about being on the Middle Fork Popo Agie trail last June.

Half my campsites are above timber between 10,500 - 11,000 feet where I doubt there would be bears. Most of the rest are at timberline around 10,000 feet. I use a bear cannister. I am trying to decide if I should bring bear spray - tending towards "no" right now. It is not like the place is crawling with bears. I will have to be more careful about eating and cooking well away from the tent.

Half my campsites are above timber between 10,500 - 11,000 feet where I doubt there would be bears. Most of the rest are at timberline around 10,000 feet. I use a bear cannister. I am trying to decide if I should bring bear spray - tending towards "no" right now. It is not like the place is crawling with bears. I will have to be more careful about eating and cooking well away from the tent.

Phat - do you carry bear spray?

Yes absolutely - I'm used to, and have great admiration and respect for Mr Grizz. To not do so would be putting his life at risk if it went badly (statisticly, I stand a better than even chance of surviving a bad encounter. The bear *will not* - he will get shot after) and I like our bears. I think they're magnificent.

And in fact Daisy, I've encountered a lot of them at those kind of altitudes - it depends on the season and what they are after, and how territories are going, cubs, etc.

I have had more of my Sow and cub encounters in high passes, digging up stuff, food caches, marmots, pikas, etc. I've hear from a bear biologist friend that (unbelievably) there are some times of year they go high to eat *moth larvae* - I think a lot of the moms take baby up high to stay away from males in overlapping turf (who will kill cubs).

For reference, spot the Grizzlies in this photo

(there's a Mom and cub who were up in the pass when I came over and spooked them, they are two dots slightly away from the centre of the picture at about the 2 oclock position, they are heading for the trees in a direction of 2 oclock from the middle of the photo )

Your biggest issue with Mr Grizz will be that you're hiking solo, and you're probably used to being quiet. voices carry a long way so when with a partner and you're talking, you won't surprise them. when solo, I give a little "yip yip" every few hundred yards of travel if I'm making no other noise. (I think I did it out of habit when leading once on the eagle creek trail with people from here and everyone thought I was strange)

And no - I don't cook in my tent. I will boil water next to it in a pinch, but I won't cook in it, or eat in it - if I can get out of my tent to take a dump, I can get out of it to eat

FWIW Backcountry Gear has the Ahwahnee and Eldorado on sale right now at a pretty decent discount. Still costy, but less painful than full retail. Either tent I'd trust in truly rotten alpine weather; I'd want the Ahwahnee when it's warm.

And just an addon to that - I *never* see black bears up high - only grizzlies - so if you're considering where you do and don't find black bears in the sierras, don't make that correlation with grizzlies.

(of course, for all I know black bears might go up high here too if it wasn't for the grizzlies - they kill black bears as direct competition and the black bears avoid grizzlies)