They are not chemical treatments. Stop calling them that! They are not rust converters as they are often called. That is a completely different product. They are a paint like coating. They do not chemically react with rust. They bond to it.

Moisture cured urethanes are used to paint off- shore oil wells and bridges. No question. The brands above are just marketed to retail consumers - not commercial industry.

POR-15 and Encapsulator must for proper adhesion be used on rusted metal. No question. They will only work if used correctly. POR-15 requires pre- treatment for use on smooth metal - and I have heard of failures using it on smooth metal even using the pre-treatment.

Encapsulator is not recommend for use at all on smooth metal.

I don't see why pre-rusting is a bad idea if you are going to use them. They need something to bite too. Kinda' scary I admit.

If rust is present and cannot be removed I use them. If rust is not present then I would choose epoxy instead.

Of the three Zero Rust adheres well to smooth metal but takes several weeks to fully cure and can be very soft until fully cured. Works well when cured.

Your new and you either have a pretty good idea what your talking about or you read all the previous posts to put your letter together.

So you don't think were rude,
I have made a pack not to respond to this thread anymore. I think a number of people feel the same.
I look at this on some of these postings and just laugh.

But in all seriousness, I just hope any newbie will read everything on here so his job will not be destroyed down the road.

You can pretty well figure out who has posted facts and who reads advertisements and than posts.

The nice thing about this forum unlike a lot of others where its a bunch of 14 year olds writing in. is there are a lot of skilled people here, there is NOT one area in body work or paint that there is not a top notch pro on here that cannot solve the problem.

I only hope if a newbie goes to ace hardware to buy an acid or mail order a miracle cure he stops and thinks, hey I don't see no body shops standing in line to buy this stuff and why does the main paint jobber in town not carry this stuff?

What anyone choses to use here will not affect any job I do but
a newbie trying to get started is expensive and I just hate to see
him spend a bunch of money doing the job over.

We have a guy on here that came here so he could build his dream car, This car is now worth $65,000-$85,000 (I have seen it)
He spent $440 a gallon for ppg base (3 gal)(featured in Mag next month)
He asked me why I wasted my time on here and my answer was "how much would this car be worth if you pored it and put Nason or Omni on it as some of the inexperience tout as the very best" $30,000 at best?
I would just hate to see something like that happen.

Personally everything is covered on this thread and it should just die!

Originally posted by asennad
Moisture cured urethanes are used to paint off- shore oil wells and bridges. No question. The brands above are just marketed to retail consumers - not commercial industry.

Go to the links provided and come back with a quote saying they used this technology.

The ONLY reason I have responded at all is to provide balanced argument. I don't need to or want to have a peeing match one on one with someone. Use it if you wish, it's your car and your choice. I have seen threads similar to this and other subjects on forums where there are no pros to offer that argument. These threads are VERY misleading to the uninformed. I hate to see someone have a misunderstanding that would lead them to producing a job less than what they want, or more importantly hurt themselves.
If I come across a thread where a number of non-pros are telling someone to go ahead and paint in their garage without a resperator, I am going to jump in on that one as well, at it a few rude comments may appear there as well.

Here it is in a nut shell, even though pros will argue about every thing from what hammer to use and if plastic filler is junk, they will agree on the following statment..... POR and similar products have their place. They are NOT the product the marketing department has made them. They are NOT the product the homehobbiests have made them out to be, they are a "POR" bandaid, (hey I like that) they do not "repair" ANYTHING. Every pro I have ever known (hundreds) would agree, they would NEVER use these products on a customers car that they were being paid to restore. Every pro would also agree, they know of no REAL paint company that provides paint to the multi billion dollar collision industry or to the multi hundred billion dollor manufacturing industry who markets a similar product. There are NO paint manufactures who have LIFE TIME WARRANTEES for their products (PPG,DuPont, S-W, Glasurat, etc.) that have a similar product included in those warrantees.

I have worked with people from every aspect in this industry. I have never known of a single one of them to even enter these products into a serious conversation. In the real autopaint world they are NON PLAYERS period.

Where was POR at NACE? If you are not aware of this event click here. Now I understand it is a collsion industry event and not directed toward the restoration industry. But would think about 90% of the restoration projects done at the shop level are done in collision shops. NACE 2004 had over 500 venders and 35,000 professionals from the autobody industry attending looking for the latest and greatest to help them provide a better product faster. Hmmm, POR was not there, ZeroRust was not there, nope, NO magic potion was there.
Do you know why, because no self respecting professional would be seen talking to the reps at the booth. That booth would have a couple of guys staring at each other with a plate of cold hors devoures in front of them.

As I said, POOR ( )has it's place. If you don't want to do it right, for what ever reason, use POR. As I have said many times before, I am not knocking someone for using it. I only want to make it clear it is NOT the right way to "repair" rust. If you are doing a project that is not "worth" doing right, well then it is an acceptable way to "deal with" rust.

Like plastic filler, it is a way to repair damaged sheetmetal. If I were to see someone lathering plastic filler all over a 59 Ferrari TestaRosa it would turn my stomach. But I use it everyday and it is a great product to "get the job done". As long as we understand it is not the best way to do it.

Originally posted by MARTINSR POR and similar products have their place. They are NOT the product the marketing department has made them. etc.

No argument here. I am not trying to take sides and I agree with your statement 100 percent.

The reason you don't see them used by professionals is that they are generally doing complete restorations and are working on cars that have been media blasted or acid dipped. Hence no rust - the correct way of doing a restoration. Rust has been cut out and panels replaced with new metal.

However a DIY’s will not have the tools skills and or the money to dip a car, cut out panels and replace them. It's simply not worth the time or money on many cars. Pro's would also refuse to work on many wrecks that DIY’s may choose to work on. And yes I have seen where pros have said that they use these products.

If the circumstances are such where one is going to use the product - then I think pre-rusting a surface to ensure the product adheres isn’t such a bad idea. Just don't let anybody use it over an entire car as I have seen people suggest!

"Go to the links provided and come back with a quote saying they used this technology."

Read the link I posted. Epoxy and moisture cured coatings are both used on bridges and oil platforms. The choice all depends on the condition of the structure, temperature, humidity, the availability of spray equipment, money etc. Again both products are used under different conditions. The technology is valid.

I have to admit, I didn't go to your link until now. It is very informative and appears to be well documented. Now, all that means is it has opened a door that I am willing to accept. Neither I or anyone else should take it as gospel. Micheal Moores "documentries" look pretty fact based on the surface and are anything but.

That "disclaimer" aside I understand your point. I am willing to say as I always have there is a place for the product. The thing is, the newbe who reads the ridiculas claims I have seen and believe it, that bothers me to now end. The issues of ecology don't have much of a part in the discussion. So, that being said, if the home hobbiest where to have his frame sandblasted and then prime it with a quality epoxy or etch and epoxy and then apply a quality urethane SS paint, I feel that is the proper way to finish a classic (even if only in the owners mind) car. Not slather on some POR over rust. And the thought of POR under real auto paint on the exterior makes my skin crawl. Yet you will read about people doing that.

As I have said many times, I am a STAUNCH advocate for the home hobbiest. I love seeing the accountant who didn't know a wrench from a screw driver get out in his garage and restore a car. If there is a place for those "magic potion" products in his project I have no problem with that. As long as he FULLY understands it's limits. I much rather see him with POR under the carpet with the car completely done and a smile on his face driving down the road. However, if he is after something better, I want him to know what that could be.
That is all I am trying to say.

OK.... I have read all of the posts. Now it is time for my $0.02. The question was "RUST..What are the acceptable permanant ways to get rid of it?"

Now if I take a fender that has a big rust spot on it, and put some of that miricle POR on it, I have not gotten rid of it, permanantly or not. If I cut it out and replace that spot with clean, rust free metal, I have gotten rid of it. Now.... if the rust is just surface and can be ground off to clean metal, it has also been removed.

Placing any product over rust, is not getting rid of it, plain and simple. Although it may slow down the process, it is still there. It is like taking cough medicin for a cold. It hasn't gotten rid of it, just the symptoms.

When I do a car, and it comes time to sell it, I can tell the people that the rust has been removed. If I used POR, and was being honest, I would have to tell them that I painted over the rust. What do you think that would do to the value? Would you buy it? I doubt it!

When I do a car, and it comes time to sell it, I can tell the people that the rust has been removed. If I used POR, and was being honest, I would have to tell them that I painted over the rust. What do you think that would do to the value? Would you buy it? I doubt it! [/B][/QUOTE]
****************************************
Great point! I still hear from people I sold cars to 20-30 years ago.
I blue print a lot of these cars with mil Gage readings and pictures from ground-up and all products used listed.
So far I have never had to not answer the phone or go to a car show and worry about taking a bullet!
Bwk

I had to laugh when I read your post adtkart. Read the following text from ads off eBay where I sold cars.

My VW Bug
"As you can see from the picture, the pan has had some water in it and is UGLY. It is however solid. There are two small rusted thru areas on the right front floorboard, that is all the rust thru the car has ever had. We are talking two 3x3-inch areas that are thin with some holes. I even will include a quart of long strand fiberglass reinforced filler to take care of it, not only that, but a quart of POR-15 rust encapsulater for the rest of the floor! It isn’t the best way to repair it, but I had some of the stuff and I will put it in with the car in case that is the way you would like to finish it."

And my '65 Buick Skylark

"This car is as solid and rust free as you will find, I can not believe you will find one more solid than this. Now, these words are easy to come by. "Rust free" I see it all the time, this is a little different, this car has ALWAYS been rust free (well except for a tiny bit on the trunk floor, more on that later). I am an autobody and paint technician and I restored this car and kept it in the family this long because it was such a great car. It has been parked outside every day for the past 10 years so the paint looks bad, real bad. But I assure you, under that paint there are no surprises. That is the difference here, no "rust free" talk only because you can't SEE it. This car's rockers and quarters, as well as the front fenders have a simple coat of paint on them, no bondo, no rust "magic potions", you can clearly see EVERY SINGLE spot weld . After being in the auto body business for 25 years, believe me, that is the sign. Don't believe someone telling you it is "rust free", get on the ground and look up at the rockers and quarters, the trunk floor, the frame. If it has underseal on it, RUN. This car has a simple coat of paint, NO RUST on the frame what so ever, we are talking ORIGINAL black paint. The body mounts, trunk floor, floor pans, have SHINEY, ORIGINAL silver paint on them!The body bolts are still in perfect zinc plating. This is the real deal, no "a little rust" BS, this thing is SOLID.

I mentioned the trunk floor, I have spilled water jugs from my days of filling jugs at the "Clear water station" in the trunk that wasn't dried up. I felt like a fool when I pulled up the mat to see some rust. I did it, the trunk does NOT leak. This rust is very localized, what you see in paint, is SOLID. I scraped off the rust and found two spots about the size of a dime that are thin, other than that is solid. I did not just cover it up with some spatter paint so I could tell you it was "rust free". What you see is the ONLY rust this car has ever had. I have seen many similar cars for sale where the seller brags about how there is no rust and shows a freshly spatter painted trunk. DO NOT BELIEVE IT. There are no surprises here. There is ABSOLUTLY NO RUST WHAT SO EVER in the quarters, rockers or fenders as most every one you will ever see has. As I said before, it has NEVER had rust there. The paint you see was sprayed over the original paint. No "surface rust" no "tiny rust specs" NOTHING. There are no games here, no "patching" has been done for the sale."

Both buyers left me glowing feedback and were very appreciative of my honestly in the description.

When I sell a car, I am as honest with people as I can be. I answer any question given, honestly. If there is rust, I am going to remove it, and tell them how I repaired the area, or I will leave it, and tell them that also. I will not place a product(POR or anyother) over it and say I fixed it. I may not know every inch of a vehicle that I am selling, and in those cases, I make that known also. I do not have the time to worry that someone may be upset with me because I lied to them, and have to watch my back. To remove the rust, and replace the metal, is the best I can do. I, along with everyone else, cannot guarantee that it will never rust again. It just will not be the rust that was there before, coming back.

Ten years ago, I did a car for a friend. It had alot of rust damage to it. All of the rust was cut out and replaced. He had the car painted by someone else, at considerable expense. I saw the car about a year ago, and it looked great. I wasn't really crazy about the paintjob that was put over all of my hard work, but it wasn't my choice. I knew that my work was going to be under a very expensive paint job, and it better be right. This wasn't just a repair job, it was for a friend. He knows where I live and how to find me. He knew everystep that was taken on his car. I did everything that I could to prevent rust from being a problem later. That friend moves around alot, but I have no concern about running into him because of the repair on that car.

"This car is as solid and rust free as you will find, I can not believe you will find one more solid than this. Now, these words are easy to come by. "Rust free" I see it all the time, this is a little different, this car has ALWAYS been rust free ...... NO RUST on the frame what so ever, we are talking ORIGINAL black paint. The body mounts, trunk floor, floor pans, have SHINEY, ORIGINAL silver paint on them!The body bolts are still in perfect zinc plating. This is the real deal, no "a little rust" BS, this thing is SOLID.......

There is ABSOLUTLY NO RUST WHAT SO EVER in the quarters, rockers or fenders as most every one you will ever see has. As I said before, it has NEVER had rust there. The paint you see was sprayed over the original paint. No "surface rust" no "tiny rust specs" NOTHING.

The qualifying phrase here is "rust free as you will find", but then you go on to delineate and describe the rust spots that are present and are visible, so I really doubt that the vehicle is "as rust free as you will find" especially as you have described the overall weathered and deteriorated condition of the rest of the vehicle. so your description is sellers hyperbole, nothing wrong with that in and of itself,
however to remove that description from its appropriate place on e-bay, and place it in this thread as some kind of evidence that you had an old vehicle with "ABSOLUTELY NO RUST ANYWHERE" is disingenuous, because being the EXPERT that you are you KNOW that corrosion began the day the vehicle was manufactured, and that there were seams and hidden areas where rust was indeed forming, and that the paint being weathered to the degree you described was allowing moisture and oxygen to penetrate the paint film to the underlying metal, the body might have indeed been in fantastic condition for the year of its manufacture, it most certainly was NOT with "ABSOLUTELY NO RUST ANYWHERE".

Now if you want to really get serious, address how to take that nice SOLID older vehicle and, return it to a condition, where the claim "ABSOLUTELY NO RUST ANYWHERE" is in fact true, and not just advertising hyperbole. That IS the subject of this thread, and thus far none of us has provided a practical, reasonable answer.

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