I think we all want to win now AND in the future quite obviously. And that will require a fine balance of our asset's. My Markakis proposition was just a shot in the dark at somebody who would benefit this team now and in the future. However unrealistic that may be. Im in the camp of not trading away any of our big prospects, but IF we were to do it, I would much rather load up for a guy like Markakis than go for a middling player like Ryan Ludwick. Just my 2 cents. Take it for what its worth.

Also, what about Mark Reynolds like I said earlier? He cant pick it to well, nor does he hit for a good average, but he's a RH 3Bman who has alot of pop. And he shouldn't be to expensive. He's signed through next season and is only owed around 4 mil I think next season. We could do worse IMO. Might give us some room to possibly shop Chiz around. TBH of all our top flight prospects I would be more willing to deal him than Pom, white or Kipnis.

What intrigues me about Reynolds is that he can strikeout more than Pete Incaviglia and Rob Deer, but he has an OB% around .350. I mean damn, he whiffs or walks or homers. I don't want him, though. We already have Sizemore and Santana and Buck doing enough of that jazz.

I would love Markakis to come to Cleveland. The guy would sell tickets and make Cleveland's outfield a big time one. I just think to make him a core player, we'[d have to be ready to give him 15 million a year and I would bet that means Carmona and one of Sizemore/Hafner would not be back in '12.

I think Ludwick is our safest and available bet. Not dazzled by that.

I wish Buck would live up to his billing prior to his injuries. He'd be all we need. Dude was a big time hitter at Arizona State and Billy Beane called him one of the 5 best guys he'd ever signed. If Buck was Buck and Choo wasn't injured...Alex White healthy...we wouldn't bother playing rumour mill even for boredom and kicks.

Symbolic47 wrote:We wouldn't have to gut our system to get Markakis. A really nice package yes, but gut it no. That would be Adam Jones, one of the only two untouchables the O's have right now. They have a serious lack of depth throughout their entire system. All Im saying is its worth looking into. That is all.

Two of either Kipnis, Chisenhall and Phelps and one of Pomeranz/White. If not more for a young, excellent defensive, very good offensive OF under control (albeit expensively) for this year and three more.

That's the minimum cost unless Angelos is hell bent on shedding salary (and there are no indications giving he signings of Guerrero and Lee that that's his mind set).

I think that would be severe overpayment for Markakis. I think you're overrating him a tad.

You're talking about giving the O's 3 Top 50 prospects. Thats ridiculous for a player of Markakis' caliber.

You know..if I could get Markakis for slightly less than that package..say White, Phelps, and say Gomez, I would do it in seconds. If our history has taught us nothing else, it is that we tend to overrate our own prospects quite a bit. Unlikely any of these players will be as good as Markakis is now.

The reasonable move I would make would be to bring up Jason Donald and dump Hannahan, who is strictly a 9th inning defensive replacement at this point. Against righties I would play Chiz at 3rd and Valbuena at 2nd. Donald would pinch hit for either of them against a late inning lefty.

Against a left-handed starter I would play Donald at 2nd for Valbs or at 3rd for Chiz. Donald is flat out raking in Columbus right now. He was supposed to be the starting 3rd baseman this year and he's finally healthy.

I would also start Zeke in RF. We're getting next to nothing from Kearns and Buck. At least Zeke would provide speed and defense. His OBP would be better than either of them, IMO. And once on base his speed would put those plodders to shame.

As for trades I would either go big or go home. And I'm pretty sure they won't go big.

By the way, I read that none of the remaining Indians opponents this year has more than one lefty in their starting rotation, so the need to go out and trade for a right-handed bat may not be as dire as a lot of fans think. I can't see the front office trading prized prospects just to add a right-handed bat.

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:I think that would be severe overpayment for Markakis. I think you're overrating him a tad.

You're talking about giving the O's 3 Top 50 prospects. Thats ridiculous for a player of Markakis' caliber.

I think July is the time when there are severe overpayments.

What would you have wanted for Choo last year at the deadline?

And DHotP is correct. You rarely speak about value in these deals. You speak about what you have to spend to get a guy the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies and Angels might want.

Nothing to do with severe.

Giles for Rincon was severe as it turned out.

Burnitz for Seitzer seemed severe.

That's the balancing act. Prospects have value either in the fact they contribute at the ML level or they have a serious buzz until they get here and fail. Giving up too many means one of those is destined to make you sick later on.

But not pulling the trigger puts you back in the day when they wouldn't trade Albie Lopez or Jaret Wright for guys like Randy Johnson and Pedro.

Economics are different. You need to keep growing those prospect assets. Your best need to make it here and contribute or go in big deals. I just don't see them being comfortable with anything other than ancillary deals.

The question of wanting to win and gambling on later is just stupid. It really is. It's also condescending. You can play that ridiculous game or get your head into the reality of 2011 and beyond here. Understand this market and this economy and the way this team has to try and compete before being a tool. Maybe it's one of the issues where you have to be here to understand that.

The one knock I have on this front office since Hart left is I don't see a lot of outside-the-box thinking when it comes to the trade deadline. In some ways that is good. They don't deal stud prospects for lefty relievers and short-term fixes.

But once I'd like to see this braintrust think like the Braves and Cardinals at the deadline. Find a way to get a frontline player. Do something creative with the Mets like sending Carmona and a prospect for Beltran to even out the money.

That's bold thinking, but Carmona may not be in this franchise's future anyways and the Mets are so desperate for starting pitching that if you gave them a legit prospect AND a shot at fixing Carmona back into a top of the rotation guy, they just may bite.

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:I think that would be severe overpayment for Markakis. I think you're overrating him a tad.

You're talking about giving the O's 3 Top 50 prospects. Thats ridiculous for a player of Markakis' caliber.

I think July is the time when there are severe overpayments.

What would you have wanted for Choo last year at the deadline?

And DHotP is correct. You rarely speak about value in these deals. You speak about what you have to spend to get a guy the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies and Angels might want.

Nothing to do with severe.

Giles for Rincon was severe as it turned out.

Burnitz for Seitzer seemed severe.

That's the balancing act. Prospects have value either in the fact they contribute at the ML level or they have a serious buzz until they get here and fail. Giving up too many means one of those is destined to make you sick later on.

But not pulling the trigger puts you back in the day when they wouldn't trade Albie Lopez or Jaret Wright for guys like Randy Johnson and Pedro.

Economics are different. You need to keep growing those prospect assets. Your best need to make it here and contribute or go in big deals. I just don't see them being comfortable with anything other than ancillary deals.

The question of wanting to win and gambling on later is just stupid. It really is. It's also condescending. You can play that ridiculous game or get your head into the reality of 2011 and beyond here. Understand this market and this economy and the way this team has to try and compete before being a tool. Maybe it's one of the issues where you have to be here to understand that.

Ok, I see what you're saying and that makes senses. I was just looking at strictly value. Markakis is worrisome due to his steady decline in his power and walk rate since his extension at the end of '08.

And I would have asked for a ton because at that point Choo was vastly superior to Markakis.

Buster O just said that Indians were a player for Beltran and that all the Mets want is a top prospect in return. Then, the Mets would absorb a lot of Belytran's salary. Almost too good to be true but you could pretty much say bye-bye Pomeranz if Cleveland goes after him.

I'm starting to think we need another arm more than a bat. Right now, Masterson is the only guy I would put to tal faith in. And my God, our whole plan depends on Carmona on Monday?!

Indians are going to have to make two roster moves tomorrow, in anticipation of Carmona and either Huff or Mcallister making a spot start. I am guessing, again, that Carrera is one...who is the other? If I am right about Carrera, then that means Kearns is safe. The options would be Hanahan and Valbuena. Of course, I am also guessing that Huff/Mcallister is sent back to Columbus after his start. That leaves us guessing as to who will be recalled when that happens.

Bigfist wrote:Indians are going to have to make two roster moves tomorrow, in anticipation of Carmona and either Huff or Mcallister making a spot start. I am guessing, again, that Carrera is one...who is the other? If I am right about Carrera, then that means Kearns is safe. The options would be Hanahan and Valbuena. Of course, I am also guessing that Huff/Mcallister is sent back to Columbus after his start. That leaves us guessing as to who will be recalled when that happens.

They'll call up Huff or McAllister for game 1 in place of one of the position players and then send them straight back down to make room for Carmona for game 2.

The rotation will then be set with Gomez staying after his start today to pitch in place of Talbot.

In some bizarrely odd way, I almost wouldn't object to the Indians going into a slight slide going into the trading deadline, just so we don't trade any good prospects for the marginal players that will be available. Then, starting August 1st, we go absolutely gangbusters with the players we do have and run away with the division.

That might be the optimum scenario. And yes, I am kidding, but only slightly.

Adverb Harry wrote:In some bizarrely odd way, I almost wouldn't object to the Indians going into a slight slide going into the trading deadline, just so we don't trade any good prospects for the marginal players that will be available. Then, starting August 1st, we go absolutely gangbusters with the players we do have and run away with the division.

That might be the optimum scenario. And yes, I am kidding, but only slightly.

Oh Harry, I like your dream! Got room for more of us in there? If wishing makes it so I'm willing to start right now!

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

Symbolic47 wrote:Something like Gomez, Huff and Phelps might get the job done. And does anyone really feel like were going to mortgage out future trading guys like that? Gomez's value has never been higher, and dont think it ever probably well unless he lights up the majors the next month.

That's not even close. Couple of maybes and a guy not even good enough to be in our rotation right now isn't going to get a guy who has a similar stat profile to Choo. His salary is what Boras is going to use as a starting point for Choo's contract negotiations.

That said, I don't think he's quite worth the coin he'll be getting the next few years. I'll pass and try to sign Choo.

There are a couple of things in this thread that I feel the need to comment on.

1) Fausto Carmona. No-one wants him, at least to the point of sending us someone of value back. We barely want him in our rotation. I don't see anyone else wanting him either, especially when you consider his salary increases the next couple of years. He's the equivalent of that crazy girlfriend that pawned all of your electronic stuff, but you still keep going back to her because she's great in the sack. You know there's greatness there, but there's also a lot of pain, and you just can't let go because you just know you're gonna get something good the next time around, until she steals your credit cards.

Would I trade him straight up for Carlos Beltran? Actually, I would. It saves us the pain of having to watch him flail away the next couple of years at an inflated salary because he's just intriguing enough not to release outright. I blame Jeremy Guthrie for this.

2) Alex White is going to be a fantastic starting pitcher if his finger doesn't become a chronic issue (fingers crossed). Please stop trying to trade him, especially since he's basically untradeable right now. He is one guy that I can't wait to see a full year's work out of.

3) Pommeranz is untouchable, and rightly so.

I know that being in the race this year when no-one expected us to be is intoxicating, but I'm still not convinced that this team survives the first round of any playoff series, let alone winning it all. I just don't see it, and I don't want to deal our top prospects for a rent-a-player like Beltan or Kuroda (who has full no-trade rights and has said that he'll refuse a deal to an east coast team).

I'd love to see them play meaningful baseball up until the end, and if they get to the playoffs it would be a great experience for the youngsters, but I don't expect them to be able to beat a team like Boston or NY in a short series. Think about the fact that there are a lot of guys on this team getting their first full year in the bigs, and other players like Chisenhall getting some great experience. This is a year that this team can build upon for next season regardless of where we end up.

I just don't think they are a championship caliber team, even with a big trade. Call me a downer.

What's there to sell? If Grady goes on the DL, he'd have to be a waiver trade after the deadline. Only guys with value are Smith and R. Perez, but the reliever market is already saturated.

Could argue that you could trade Hafner, but there's no way they do that. Not to mention, what AL team actually needs a full-time DH?

I am willing to move Fausto, Joe Smith, Raffy Perez.

Yes, the market is heavy in relievers. But how many with an ERA under 1.00 in the AL are there? And a LH that can get guys out from both sides of the plate are gold in October.

Fausto, I call the Cardinals. They are looking to move McClellan out of the rotation and they are so good at getting more out of SP than others, they may think they can fix Fausto overnight. Their bullpen has been so-so, maybe they would have interest in taking that threesome for someone like Allen Craig?

I just don't think they are a championship caliber team, even with a big trade. Call me a downer.

Bingo. We're 49-44. In a normal year or in a normal division, we're something like 5 games out right now, heading towards a 84-ish win total, and we're just pleased with their progress. Nobody would be realistically expecting playoffs or any bold moves to try and make the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong, this division is very winnable and doing so, even if we get jailraped in the first round, would be gigantic for the progress of our young guys and mending the fan relationship here. But I'm starting to think more and more that we should try our best with in-house options and limit any trading activity to small deals. It's a seller's market, the team might not be good enough anyway, and the division is bad enough for us to stay relevant as is. Probably best to ride it out.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

WiscTribeFan wrote:They want a #2 or 3 guy right now, not someone they think they might be able to fix. Look for them to deal Rasmus to the Rays for pitching. He's worn out his welcome in that organization.

They can want whatever they want.

If the Rays don't send them a #2 or 3 guy, then they are back to Kuroda. When you add the bullpen help we can provide...

Not saying they would do it. Saying it is the type of deal they might consider and we should certainly consider. As we know, Fausto is better the less you have seen of him. Maybe he can put together a great second half facing teams that have not really seen him? Plus, I am pretty sure he has good numbers against the Reds. Might interest someone in their division?

If we are where they would like to think we are, Fausto is a 5 starter in Cleveland in 2 years.

Concur here. Having good seasons will make them expensive by middle relief standards and R. Perez's inconsistency at throwing strikes pisses me off. He's gotten really lucky the last two years.

Yes, the market is heavy in relievers. But how many with an ERA under 1.00 in the AL are there? And a LH that can get guys out from both sides of the plate are gold in October.

Valid point. I just think that there are more proven arms out there. I admit I haven't researched the bullpen market because we're not going to be involved in it, but I just don't see us getting full value for those two guys. Especially not enough to trade them if the FO thinks we can hang in this thing, which I think they do.

Fausto, I call the Cardinals. They are looking to move McClellan out of the rotation and they are so good at getting more out of SP than others, they may think they can fix Fausto overnight. Their bullpen has been so-so, maybe they would have interest in taking that threesome for someone like Allen Craig?

Not a bad idea by any means, I just can't see a taker for Fausto unless we're taking back a bad contract.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

There is no such thing as equal value in return. There is what is offered and if you think it is good enough. If bullpen is an area of strength, and all signs point to in continuing to be one, you deal from it to fill a weakness. If someone is willing to move a RH corner OF with better than average pop, you have to take that shot. Even if it doesn't seem "equal".

There is no such thing as equal value in return. There is what is offered and if you think it is good enough. If bullpen is an area of strength, and all signs point to in continuing to be one, you deal from it to fill a weakness. If someone is willing to move a RH corner OF with better than average pop, you have to take that shot. Even if it doesn't seem "equal".

I get that. What I said was full value. Doesn't mean equal. Means that they get what they think is full value. Not sure that they're going to get that with a lot of relief options available.

Not denying that they can trade from a position of strength. Problem is that the RH bats who are worthwhile are on mediocre/bad teams with no use for Smith, Perez, or Carmona. They'd want top prospects, something I'm not willing to give up for marginal, one-year upgrades.

Now, if a name like Hunter Pence is thrown about, I'd be more willing to move a bigger name prospect. Not for some Josh Willingham type.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

There is no such thing as equal value in return. There is what is offered and if you think it is good enough. If bullpen is an area of strength, and all signs point to in continuing to be one, you deal from it to fill a weakness. If someone is willing to move a RH corner OF with better than average pop, you have to take that shot. Even if it doesn't seem "equal".

I get that. What I said was full value. Doesn't mean equal. Means that they get what they think is full value. Not sure that they're going to get that with a lot of relief options available.

Not denying that they can trade from a position of strength. Problem is that the RH bats who are worthwhile are on mediocre/bad teams with no use for Smith, Perez, or Carmona. They'd want top prospects, something I'm not willing to give up for marginal, one-year upgrades.

Now, if a name like Hunter Pence is thrown about, I'd be more willing to move a bigger name prospect. Not for some Josh Willingham type.

The Indians have to do something, if only from the standpoint of that they will lose all their credibility with a returning but leery fan base if they don't.

There's no way they're going to trade Kipnis, Pomeranz, White, Chiz, or Hagadone. They'll almost assuredly deal someone in that next tier in the next 10-12 days.

They almost have to. If they were to do what Pup advocates, and deal someone like Joe Smith for a prospect, people would freak. If they do nothing, people will freak.

You can easily make the argument that this team is not good enough, and the best thing for the big picture and hopes of contending for five years would be to sell. It will never happen. Not when you're just starting to win back some fans.

Average attendance per game is up 5,000 over last year. 5,000 x 81 games x $26 average ticket price is 10.5 million. That doesn't count all the crap people buy when they're in there. This is a business. The right business move is to try and get some help without mortgaging the future. Especially after you've spent the last 3+ years telling fans you'd spend when the time is right ... and with the entire leadership of the team on Twitter saying the same thing.

Can this team win a title this year with what they got? Almost assuredly not. Bottom line remains though, they're in first place of the crappiest division in baseball 95 games in. In a sport where anything can happen when you just get in the playoffs.

They gotta do something. If they do nothing, run Ezekial Carrera/Buck/Kearns out there the next 10 weeks and come up a couple games short, the anti-Dolan sentiment will be even worse than it was 6 months ago ... when 90% of Joe Fan tuned themselves out to this team.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

I just do not see how nor why we would not go for Ludwick. He's clearly not a prize for the higher-ups like NYY, Bos, and LAA. I really think it's us or Pittsburgh as we both seem to have similar needs. The Bucs need another stick, but they REALLY need another arm in the rotation (they're good bullpen wise). If it comes down to us and them for Ludwick, I don't want to lose. I think Ludwick could become more than a 3 month rental like Beltran. He came up with us and it'd be nice to have him for 2-3 seasons in his prime. I do not know how all that wet ink works with him, but he'd provide PROTECTION and VETERAN PRESENCE. We desperately need that. Outside of Pronk, look at today's lineup...hell, it's so young that Buck's practically a vet with 4 years experience. That's why I like Ludwick over the kid from Houston and Morse. He's going to be cheaper for the long haul and he's played a good bit of ball -- some of which for c'ship teams. He gives us what we want now. We don't need to add another Santana-like experienced young up and comer. We need the bat form of Paul Byrd.

swerb wrote:Average attendance per game is up 5,000 over last year. 5,000 x 81 games x $26 average ticket price is 10.5 million. That doesn't count all the crap people buy when they're in there.

This is the most important thing to come out of this season. They played well enough to bring $ in earlier then the front office forecast. That means they can spend in the offseason sooner then they planned on.

I hate to say it, but I think the major acquisition comes over the winter, not at the end of July.

The Indians have an enviable foundation of good, young starting pitching and a young, effective bullpen. Bringing in big bats in free agency is the best way to improve the team, without giving up future players.

One of the names I've seen thrown about that I'd be much more interested in than Ludwick would be Marlon Byrd of the Cubs. He's got one year left on his deal @$6.5M, which would work if we jettisoned Sizemore after the season.

WiscTribeFan wrote:One of the names I've seen thrown about that I'd be much more interested in than Ludwick would be Marlon Byrd of the Cubs. He's got one year left on his deal @$6.5M, which would work if we jettisoned Sizemore after the season.

Ooh, that's intriguing. Good defensively from what I've seen, as well.

TribeinLA wrote:I just do not see how nor why we would not go for Ludwick. He's clearly not a prize for the higher-ups like NYY, Bos, and LAA. I really think it's us or Pittsburgh as we both seem to have similar needs. The Bucs need another stick, but they REALLY need another arm in the rotation (they're good bullpen wise). If it comes down to us and them for Ludwick, I don't want to lose. I think Ludwick could become more than a 3 month rental like Beltran. He came up with us and it'd be nice to have him for 2-3 seasons in his prime. I do not know how all that wet ink works with him, but he'd provide PROTECTION and VETERAN PRESENCE. We desperately need that. Outside of Pronk, look at today's lineup...hell, it's so young that Buck's practically a vet with 4 years experience. That's why I like Ludwick over the kid from Houston and Morse. He's going to be cheaper for the long haul and he's played a good bit of ball -- some of which for c'ship teams. He gives us what we want now. We don't need to add another Santana-like experienced young up and comer. We need the bat form of Paul Byrd.

If we're dropping down that far, might as well make it Willingham. He's more consistent and has more power than Ludwick who was a 1-year wonder only when he had Pujols protection. I don't eve see Ludwick as an upgrade over Travis Buck. Willingham will give you a RH bat that works counts and has some pop.

If they add Mike Morse and fall a couple of games short, you are going to lose the people that still have hope that Antonetti > Shapiro.

Go big (Pence/Upton) or sell.

Buying a mid level bat will have people chanting Dolan is cheap AND Antonetti is an idiot.

And it doesn't matter what joe fan thinks. If they did that deal and Allen Craig becomes the RH corner OF they NEED next season..the same joe fan that returned this year and got pissed off because we traded Joe Smith will come back next year when they are winning.