This question has been asked several times on this thread. My only answer is that someone has to defend the truth. I'm sure you're not a big fan of it, but it's the only thing I believe in. And it's worth defending. And, I'm not alone. Just because a large portion of the Treebuzz community doesn't weigh in on this thread or similar threads does not mean they are all libs too. I've received many pm's stating support for the views I've been promoting here. The simple fact is that this forum leans left. It's no secret. And I'll be honest with you, I don't find a whole lot of what's discussed on the other threads all that fascinating. A few of the other threads interest me, but lot of it is sort of 'ho-hum'.

No. But I do agree with vets getting benefits. And no, they are not FREE! You and lots of other Americans will never understand the sacrifices that are and have been made. Don't ever think that a vet is getting something for free. Here you're not dumb; just ignorant.

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If you would actually read any of Zinn's work you would find that he doesn't make any of the claims that you say he lies about. Simply he paints a fuller picture of why people are immigrating to the US. Tell me one simple fact that Zinn has lied about. The guy was a history professor, I am sure if he was doctoring the truth he would have lost his job, and been discredited.

“Objectivity is impossible, and it is also undesirable. That is, if it were possible it would be undesirable, because if you have any kind of social aim, if you think history should serve society in some way; should serve the progress of the human race; should serve justice in some way, then it requires that you make your selection on the basis of what you think will advance causes of humanity.”

Truth had no place in his world:
He called communist China, under Mao’s reign of terror, “the closest thing to a People’s government,” and that “Castro’s Cuba had no bloody record of suppression.” So I guess when Mao had 60 million of his own citizens slaughtered he was doing “the people’s work”? Do I have that right? And when Castro enlisted Che Guevara and his death squad, that wasn’t bloody suppression?

But what of America and the founders? Zinn’s view: “Forget about all men are created equal, forget about liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, America’s founding can be reduced to the pursuit of exploitation and profit.”

Zinn portrays the American founding as a virtually totalitarian system of oppression. Interestingly, Zinn never felt the need to explain the dichotomy of his view of the founding with the Constitution, guaranteeing “individual rights” and government “balance of powers.” I guess that was all just a smokescreen, a ruse created by the “Ruling Class” to fool the people.

I could go on, describing just how damaging Zinn’s “version” of history is to our children but I think you have the gist of it.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/03/the-peoples-historian
Reviewing A People's History in The American Scholar, Harvard University professor Oscar Handlin denounced "the deranged quality of his fairy tale, in which the incidents are made to fit the legend, no matter how intractable the evidence of American history." Socialist historian Michael Kazin judged Zinn's most famous work "bad history, albeit gilded with virtuous intentions

Or this:http://www.bu.edu/today/2011/rethinking-howard-zinn/
“Today,” he said, “you don’t see the kind of very polemical history that is based on one’s man’s goal of making change, not just objectively reporting history, but rather affecting and influencing history.”

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No. But I do agree with vets getting benefits. And no, they are not FREE! You and lots of other Americans will never understand the sacrifices that are and have been made. Don't ever think that a vet is getting something for free. Here you're not dumb; just ignorant.

That's great! Ok now we can get some where. Yes you served, yes you deserve benefits, and yes they are not free. I am not trying to trap you, I just should have taken more time to articulate. No one is after anything free, who is going to pay for this? We are paying for your benefits. It's proposed that WE would be paying for universal single payer heath care, tuition, and other social needs that all would benefit from. I do also see that you are not debating the point I made about the US military being a socialist system (or perhaps communist).

Sorry for assuming that you haven't had to accept food stamps, or other government welfare. I did perhaps overstep on that statement. In my opinion the military is a social welfare program, for the majority of soldiers. Most of the vets I know felt that this was their only option to break the cycle of poverty, and to make ends meet for their families. This is also well documented.

“Objectivity is impossible, and it is also undesirable. That is, if it were possible it would be undesirable, because if you have any kind of social aim, if you think history should serve society in some way; should serve the progress of the human race; should serve justice in some way, then it requires that you make your selection on the basis of what you think will advance causes of humanity.”

This quote is in the forward musings of his book "Peoples History" when read in the full, it makes sense, I even had a hard time with it at first. READ it and give it some thought. History cannot be objective, it's highly subjective and forces one to take a stance desired or not. Sure he has his critics, he is a critic...

Give it a shot and read the book for yourself. Not just critical reviews, get the context down. Hell I once read the bible, if I can do that you surely could read a history book.

I am going to respectfully bow out, I'm tiring of this, if you'd like we can take this conversation elsewhere Pm's or it's own thread.

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In every Western country where Islam is a minority muslims are extremely vocal about demanding minority rights, in many cases these minority rights for muslims actually extend to special privilege ie the wearing of the full face veil in airports/banks/public buildings or special allowances to be made for muslim students during Ramadan, taking time out at work to pray to Mecca.

Yet in every country where Islam represents the majority there are virtually no rights for minorities and anyone who deviates from the strict Islamic law of the Sharia is severely punished.

Now with that in mind can we agree that unless the West curtails Islamic demands for special privilege we will be complicit in our own demise not only due to misguided political correctness or the abject failure to stand up for our own Western values such as the freedom to live as we please without interference from Islam and it's intolerance of western ideals but for the very obvious reason that Islam seeks to nullify and void all non Islamic culture and tradition. This is how Islam has functioned since it's inception in the 7th Century. Placating and reasoning for a soft middle ground between the West and Islam is not something Islam wants.

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Yea, Chompsky's actually reared his head in this thread before. I don't read Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, Rules for Radicals, or any other rot.

Several years ago, I took an oath--"...to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;..."

Since the founding of this country, socialism/communism has been an enemy of the Constitution, and freedom loving people around the world. The problem is--now they are among us. Are you an enemy of the Constitution Evo? If so, the defenseless and the Constitution will have to be protected from you.

And by the way, just so you know, regardless of Zinn's lies, America is the safe haven the defenseless have traveled the globe to reach for 2 1/2 centuries. And they're still trying to get here by any means possible. They're building boats out of junk, held together with duct tape, to escape the bliss of Cuba. Swimming the snake infested Rio to rid themselves of the corruption taking place in Mexico. Signing on as answering services in India to get visas just for a chance to end up on American soil. And on, and on it goes. Sure--this is the most awful place in the world--everybody in the world wants to live here.

You've made assumptions about me. Let me put it like this. Not everyone who is in a tight spot turns to the government for help.

Let me put it another way. Bernie's answer to the woes of mankind is more government. Is that your answer as well? Do you think those Indians you mentioned above would agree? Who lied to them? The American people? Nope--the government. So--is anything going to be improved by increasing its size? You mentioned that you, "had a lucky break from a awesome community". Not a government. Usually, it is other people who give the right kind of help when it's needed. The government comes in and botches things royally.

We need a government that will get out of the way and let the American people make the magic they're capable of. Bernie--increase of $10 trillion in his first term--more government jobs than civilian sector. You tell me--who's going to pay for that?

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In every Western country where Islam is a minority muslims are extremely vocal about demanding minority rights, in many cases these minority rights for muslims actually extend to special privilege ie the wearing of the full face veil in airports/banks/public buildings or special allowances to be made for muslim students during Ramadan, taking time out at work to pray to Mecca.

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But seriously, painting all Muslims with the brush that they are out for world domination is no different than the Christian Dominionists. Ted Cruz is one, anointed by God hisself to rule the world (according to his preacher daddy, and wife). And he's running for president!

Maybe we should just reboot the Crusades, this time with nukes. That will solve who's myths are the best. Once and for all.

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But seriously, painting all Muslims with the brush that they are out for world domination is no different than the Christian Dominionists. Ted Cruz is one, anointed by God hisself to rule the world (according to his preacher daddy, and wife). And he's running for president!

you could be conflating two separate issues? Christianity doesn't represent the western mindset, it's historically played a dominant role in western thought...sure....but in America and other European/Western democracies today you are free to practice any religion you want, you are also free to lobby government to make policies which reflect your own religious or non religious/secular beliefs.

In Islamic Republics such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan you are not free to deviate from the strict laws of the Sharia. Your politics are confined by the rigid parameters of Islamic ideology. If western countries allow this idea to develop even on a small scale within minority Muslim enclaves it's the thin end of the wedge which will lead to ever more privileges for Islamic ideology which essentially runs counter to western liberal ideas of freedom and tolerance.

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In Islamic Republics such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan you are not free to deviate from the strict laws of the Sharia. Your politics are confined by the rigid parameters of Islamic ideology. If western countries allow this idea to develop even on a small scale within minority Muslim enclaves it's the thin end of the wedge which will lead to ever more privileges for Islamic ideology which essentially runs counter to western liberal ideas of freedom and tolerance.

I am more concerned about evangelical Christians holding office in the US who legislate their religious values onto all Americans. I believe firmly in the separation of church and state. If you ask me which religion I am more worried about taking over my country, it's Christianity, and not the real kind.

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I am more concerned about evangelical Christians holding office in the US who legislate their religious values onto all Americans. I believe firmly in the separation of church and state. If you ask me which religion I am more worried about taking over my country, it's Christianity, and not the real kind.

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You may find that evangelicals claim inspiration from their religious beliefs and these beliefs help guide their morality. Their religious based morality would therefore naturally guide their politics. They need to understand that if their religious beliefs are translated into legislation then what is to stop Muslims doing the same? the US is afterall a multicultural society, that is to say it is assumed all cultures are of equal value. If they are of equal value then Muslims can logically demand certain fundamental aspects of Islam to become enshrined in US law in exactly the same way as evangelicals are seeking to have their version of Christianity woven into the fabric of American political life. It's all or nothing. I'd say nothing is the safer option. All religion has to be kept separate from the state.

Unfortunately Islam is attempting to legislate in Europe in much the same way as your Evangelicals attempt to legislate in the US and they are succeeding in many realms of public and political life. Muslims in Europe seem to have no concept of how European heritage and culture evolved to achieve universal emancipation from religious oppression. Worse still, many Europeans.... particularly liberal left wing progressives cant see how their culture is slowly being eroded away, they're blinded by well intentioned but ultimately misguided and self destructive political correctness.

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