Wednesday, April 16, 2014

I once started an “Unpredictable! Unpredictable! Unpredictable!” Johnny Rodz chant after Clay Bellinger’s first career HR. Just never caught on.

The Pirates and Reds grappled in an absolute homerfest Monday in Cincinnati, launching an absurdly entertaining 10 long balls before rain halted the game after six innings. A half-dozen of those long balls came courtesy of Pittsburgh batters, leading the Bucs to adopt a new team celebration.

After years of the Dude, Where’s My Car-inspired Zoltan, the Pirates unveiled their homage to Daniel Bryan’s “YES! YES! YES!” chant following Neil Walker’s second home run of the evening.

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Daniel Bryan is the current WWE Champion. He stands at 5'8 and is a vegan with a hipster beard. In terms of technically proficiency, he is probably the best professional wrestler in the world right now, and an absolute treat to watch.

I can't believe I'm saying this because I basically abandoned professional wrestling for good when I was 10 years old after I found out it's "fake," but I have gotten back into it in a big way after learning about CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, guys that remind me of my punk rock drinking buddies and hipster college friends. Seeing how they approach their craft have given me a brand-new appreciation and respect for professional wrestling. I'd subscribed to the WWE Network if MLB.TV didn't take too much of my time. Maybe in the fall.

Daniel Bryan is the current WWE Champion. He stands at 5'8 and is a vegan with a hipster beard. In terms of technically proficiency, he is probably the best professional wrestler in the world right now, and an absolute treat to watch.

[5] - You're right! Looks like he actually developed a soy intolerance.

These kind of lifestyles are not conductive to professional wrestling. I suspect a big reason CM Punk walked away at 35 is because his straight-edge/drug-free convictions don't allow him to take painkillers to keep up with everyone else.

One of the parts that has been so fun about Bryan is that they have built his entire storyline around the idea that he is atypical for a pro wrestler. "The Authority," which is a group of on-air authority figures who are actual company executives, have done everythng they can to make sure he is not the champion and he has perservered. In an era where everyone is in on the joke, it is extremely clever to make the fake storyline indistinguishable from the behind the scenes reality.

#7 Have you seen the best of Sakuraba? In particular his submission wins against Quinton Jackson and Kevin Randleman. Jackson was literally throwing him around the ring (and using sheer power to escape from things like an arm bar) but ended getting choked out.

His real name is Bryan Danielson. They want everyone to change their name, so they can trademark it... but damn, "Bryan Danielson" is a cool name and "Daniel Bryan" sounds really stupid.

When it comes to WWE changing names, I generally agree with you. Daniel Bryan's a good name though. It's got kind of an underdog ring to it, and it's very easy to chant (Dan-iel Bry-an clap clap clapclapclap).

It's been really fun watching him these last few years; winning the belt(s) at WrestleMania was a pretty great moment.

And as much as I dislike Vince McMahon, the WWE Network is amazing. When they start adding old WCW/WWF TV shows I'll become a complete recluse from society.

In an era where everyone is in on the joke, it is extremely clever to make the fake storyline indistinguishable from the behind the scenes reality.

Between this and CM Punk incorporating his personal politics/convictions into his wrestling persona to the point you're unsure what's a work or not, it's why pro wrestling has been such compelling theater the last few years.

wake me up when bryce harper starts coming out for at bats in the full king getup that HHH had for his mania30 entrance. it's the natural progression of the stretch limo hummer to the high school press conference.

Further to #16, possibly my favorite Sakuraba stat is the time of his win versus Royce Gracie in 2000. 90:00 minutes of grappling (one of Gracie's many conditions was a no time limit bout. Sakuraba just agreed to all of Gracie's conditions because he wanted the fight) before Gracie's corner stopped the fight.

I think part of it had to do with petulance. I think part of it had to do with being burned out. I think part of it had to do with being hurt. And he seems to have a few other hobbies so wrestling wasn't the be-all, end-all for him.

I don't really blame him, though I'm bummed he's not wrestling anymore. To be fair, he was going nowhere before he left the company. He was getting humiliated, kayfabe-wise, in that authority angle (befriending HHH's BFF's NAO? Another feud with Kane?). He was probably going to job to HHH at WM.

EDIT: Fighting guys that much bigger took a toll. He had a couple of brutal losses to Wanderlei Silva and injured himself against Kro Kop.

Fighting *strikers* bigger than him took its toll. He could hang with bigger grapplers but trying to deal with big power sluggers like Wanderlei, Crocop, and Igor Vovchanchin pretty well guaranteed him taking a beating.

Noticed this thread while sitting at home watching Wrestlemania XV on the WWE Network (and applying to jobs since unemployment sucks). I was a huge wrestling fan from about '98-'01. I recently got back into it thanks to Grantland's coverage and have watched the last 3 PPVs. I purchased the Network when it launched and am trying to watch all the PPVs I missed. I started with the '96 KOTR and it has been a fun ride. Random observations:

-Shawn Michaels' in-ring work was terrific, but I found him underwhelming on the mic and he didn't generate nearly the pops I thought he must have.
-Perhaps I'm missing something since I'm only watching PPVs, but it was funny seeing The Rock debut with a huge babyface push, initially received warmly by the fans, only to have the fans turn on him. Then, he gets turned into a heel and the fans like him and eventually start loving him (The Nation years). Then, they turn into THE Heel (Corporate Rock) and...people still kind of like him.
-I thought Mankind's matches were awesome as a pre-teen. I think they're tough to watch as an adult.
-Undertaker has had some really ridiculous gimmicks/angles. Kind of crazy he lasted as long as he did.
-Sid is/was one of the worst wrestlers I've ever seen. Quite the physical specimen though.

Random observations from the 3 "current"/'14 PPVS I have watched:

-Daniel Bryan is overrated. He's just ok/solid on the mic IMO and kind of sloppy in-ring. I wonder how his popularity will fare now that he is no longer the underdog.
-Bray Wyatt is ####### amazing. Nothing negative to say about him. Easily the guy I am most impressed by.
-Roman Reigns and Orton both have a great look and physical presence/charisma. However, Orton sucks on the mic and I'm not sure how I feel about how some of Reigns' big moves look.

One of the parts that has been so fun about Bryan is that they have built his entire storyline around the idea that he is atypical for a pro wrestler. "The Authority," which is a group of on-air authority figures who are actual company executives, have done everythng they can to make sure he is not the champion and he has perservered. In an era where everyone is in on the joke, it is extremely clever to make the fake storyline indistinguishable from the behind the scenes reality.

Still incredible that HHH was the MVP of a Wrestlemania in 2014 (or ever). Had a great match to open the show and helped bring the crowd back to life in the main event after they were gut punched by Brock. Anyway, what was also great about the build to him and Bryan was that they could turn a decade's worth of shitty WWE booking and HHH dominance into a good portion of the booking and drama for this story; see: this promo.

Wrestlemania and the night after were a lot of fun. Part of me would love to continue on with it (assuming they can continue providing compelling tv and building people up), but they produce so much content that it's difficult. I'm probably fine getting my nostalgia fix with the network (sticking mostly with Countdown and WM Remind for now as those are easy to access the search function is still pretty terrible and the xbx 360 app remains the worst app for anything ever created) and catching a few minutes of Raw if I'm around on Monday nights, but that has to be it. I can't imagine how anyone can fit in Raw, Smackdown, PPV (or network special) and even squeezing in good wrestling on something like Main Event.

Have they put up any of their territorial archives from the 70s and 80s, like Georgia Championship, Florida Championship, WCCW, Mid-South, etc? You know, from back when 'rasslin was real?

I haven't seen any, but Vince owns it all, and they just released a really good DVD compilation called Legends of Mid-South, which was received really well. I can't describe how blissful a 2 am viewing of Ric Flair defeating Harley Race would be in my world right now.

Yeah I know, I liked the Mid-South release, and the WCCW one and the AWA one were also fun to watch.

I can't describe how blissful a 2 am viewing of Ric Flair defeating Harley Race would be in my world right now.

There's quite a bit of great footage on YouTube, but where the WWE Network intrigues me is the possibility of better-quality footage from the original masters. I've wasted a heap of time on YouTube the last few months looking up old wrestling matches, there's so much stuff there that it's hard to even think what to look for. Playboy Buddy Rose, Bobby Eaton, Adrian Adonis, those guys were great workers and largely unappreciated.

My favourite part of Bryan's path to the top is remembering when I watched this promo he cut with Paul London for an independent wrestling company in 2009. I thought it was funny that Danielson had a bloody feud that had him break his orbital bone mid-match and keep going, but the time in his career when he was getting the most attention he'd ever gotten to that point was when he failed to be the straight man to Paul London's ramblings about dolphins, seagulls, and bees. I still watch it whenever I need a good laugh, I swear it's possible to detect the exact moment (approximately 58 seconds in) when Bryan totally loses his ability to keep a straight face and not laugh, he almost recovers, then just loses it again right at the end. Meanwhile Paul London just kept motoring along about how he's from the island of Dr Moreau.

Bryan always did know how to have fun. He once did a passable Ultimate Warrior impression when the guest ring announcer accidentally introduced him as "The Ultimate Dragon" instead of "The American Dragon".

-Daniel Bryan is overrated. He's just ok/solid on the mic IMO and kind of sloppy in-ring. I wonder how his popularity will fare now that he is no longer the underdog.

Bryan's been pandering to the crowd *way* too much over the past several months, on that I'll agree (though that's part of the gimmick, can't fault him too much). When given something to work with, he's very solid on the mic. Check out his indy promos, or his heel work with AJ in the WWE, or his pre-Summerslam promo with John Cena.

I have no idea where you're seeing the sloppiness, though. He's probably the safest, crispest worker out there. His matches are generally flawless (from a technical standpoint). I'm not a big fan of some of the stuff he does with his head (dives to the outside, headbutt off the top rope), but IMO he's amazing in the ring.

My favourite part of Bryan's path to the top is remembering when I watched this promo he cut with Paul London for an independent wrestling company in 2009. I thought it was funny that Danielson had a bloody feud that had him break his orbital bone mid-match and keep going, but the time in his career when he was getting the most attention he'd ever gotten to that point was when he failed to be the straight man to Paul London's ramblings about dolphins, seagulls, and bees. I still watch it whenever I need a good laugh, I swear it's possible to detect the exact moment (approximately 58 seconds in) when Bryan totally loses his ability to keep a straight face and not laugh, he almost recovers, then just loses it again right at the end. Meanwhile Paul London just kept motoring along about how he's from the island of Dr Moreau.

#23 His style was problematic for the big strikers. If you watch his bouts, he'd accept a blow to get a hold on his opponent. Not a great idea if the big guy knows how to strike. He was a heavy favorite against Silva going in though

His bout with Randleman is a fascinating example of how he had no fear of grappling with a much bigger, stronger guy. And Randleman was an experienced grappler. He seemed more or less in total control but Sukuraba got an arm (with a move that is worth watching. Comes out of nowhere) and the fight was over (though Randleman was powerful enough to hold out for a while)

EDIT: Brutal run of opponents took a lot out of him. Silva, Jackson, Silva, Kro Kop. In relatively short order.

That was the closest I ever came to buying a pro wrestling t-shirt. Well that and when El Generico was selling all the shirts that advertised his (kayfabe) orphanage in Mexico.

hybrid dolphins, ftw!

I remembered the Danger Bees promo, but I didn't remember how funny it was. I really regret that London never had a sustained run as a crackpot babyface somewhere. Just team him up with a serious wrestler, have them do the "partners who aren't similar but grow on each other" bit and it'd be a license to... well, not print money but it would've been a lot of fun.

"We have high... HIGH expectations for members. That's why there's only two of us... and because it's a tag team... REGARDLESS... We're the new breed of bees! It's like a bee / wasp / hermit crab [Generico corpses] / balloon animal. And what it does is it finds you in the park... sitting on a bench, eating your cotton candy [Generico laughs] And this little balloon animal / wasp / bee thing comes up nudging on you... 'Give me a chance' it says 'I'm small... and I'm ugly!' [Generico totally loses it]"

I have no idea where you're seeing the sloppiness, though. He's probably the safest, crispest worker out there. His matches are generally flawless (from a technical standpoint). I'm not a big fan of some of the stuff he does with his head (dives to the outside, headbutt off the top rope), but IMO he's amazing in the ring.

I'll try to check out some of the promos you mentioned. As far as sloppiness, not sure if that's the right word, but his moves just don't look good to me. A lot of the time it doesn't look like he's actually hitting his opponents. I'm also not a fan of some of his big moves.

Sakuraba's a guy who could have made weight at welterweight (he walks around at 187) and routinely fought guys in the light-heavy to heavyweight range.

He was awesome, but Anderson Silva to me was the most amazing pound for pound fighter ever. he was so dominant both mentally and physically that he seemed to be from another planet with his technique and how he baited opponents. But both he and Sakuraba show how difficult it is to stay on top. Even the most dominant fighters lose their edge so fast in MMA, and when it's gone it seems like it's gone forever.

I have been writing a pretty extensive wrestling blog for the last couple of years at anonymousgm.blogspot.com and I would love to get feedback from anyone here who is into WWE. I have also started doing more ROH coverage since I started getting it on TV but I cannot stomach TNA yet. A writer friend (who also writes for Rotographs) started chipping in recently and we're working on making it a more comprehensive website in the next couple of months. I wrote something that turned out pretty well on Ultimate Warrior's death if you scroll down the blog to last week.

I have been writing a pretty extensive wrestling blog for the last couple of years at anonymousgm.blogspot.com and I would love to get feedback from anyone here who is into WWE. I have also started doing more ROH coverage since I started getting it on TV but I cannot stomach TNA yet. A writer friend (who also writes for Rotographs) started chipping in recently and we're working on making it a more comprehensive website in the next couple of months. I wrote something that turned out pretty well on Ultimate Warrior's death if you scroll down the blog to last week.

shouldn't you have changed the name of your blog to hornswoggle.blogspot.com?

It was a big mistake to give it a timely name because that has faded dramatically. We have been kicking around names for our new site and it is remarkably hard to find something that is both timeless and interesting that applies to wrestling.

I am an expert on pro wrestling having watched The Soup's pro wrestling episode this week and I can now say with great confidence Daniel Brian is nowhere near the best in the WWE because first and second place are the Bella Twins, i'm still deciding which of these girls would be my number one and who would be my backup.

BTW: their footage of Daniel Brian's big victory where the entire crowd chanted with him, arms in the air, was actually amazing. you know you're doing something right when you can excite a crowd that large and involved all of them in the moment, it made me wish I was there and I don't even like pro wrestling.

It was a big mistake to give it a timely name because that has faded dramatically. We have been kicking around names for our new site and it is remarkably hard to find something that is both timeless and interesting that applies to wrestling.

is fakeabe.blogspot.com taken? your tagline could be "old man yells at cloudy"

BTW: their footage of Daniel Brian's big victory where the entire crowd chanted with him, arms in the air, was actually amazing. you know you're doing something right when you can excite a crowd that large and involved all of them in the moment, it made me wish I was there and I don't even like pro wrestling.

His promo in front of the live audience the next day was special. He seemed to get choked up when the crowd started chanting "You deserve it!"

is fakeabe.blogspot.com taken? your tagline could be "old man yells at cloudy"

I've been watching wrestling since the days of the von Erichs, and seeing Bryan's rise through the ranks over the last 18 months is about the most fun I've had. What's made it better is that he seems like a genuinely nice guy when interacting with fans, sick kids, etc. He's not Randy Orton, a third-generation guy handed his spot from Day 1 who poops in other wrestlers' gym bags just to be a dick. Bryan spent years working in the crappy indie conditions before finally getting a shot with a bigger company, and he's made the most of it despite some questionable booking decisions early on.

I'm really enjoying that the crowds are starting to choose their own favorites, rather than just accepting who the WWE tells them to cheer or boo. They love the crazy Wyatts, turned the Shield into fan favorites, and pushed Bryan to the moon. It's fun stuff, and what's more it looks like the powers that be are actually starting to pay attention.

Of course, I'm sure Jeff Jarrett's new promotion will take them down. Especially once he installs himself as all-time champion, no takesy-backsies, and makes himself and his guitar the tag team champions.

Fighting *strikers* bigger than him took its toll. He could hang with bigger grapplers but trying to deal with big power sluggers like Wanderlei, Crocop, and Igor Vovchanchin pretty well guaranteed him taking a beating.

I admire Sakuraba's skill and fighting spirit, and I hope I never see him fight again. I don't want to watch him die in the ring. Seeing Zaromskis rip off his ear was bad enough...

That last fight against Wandy was the next closest thing to a snuff film, and it took something out of him that he never got back.

It was a big mistake to give it a timely name because that has faded dramatically. We have been kicking around names for our new site and it is remarkably hard to find something that is both timeless and interesting that applies to wrestling.

Great wrestling discussion there, with lots of video links and analysis. Check out their regular features like "Wrestler of the Day", like this one for Harley Race, lots of fun and has some great footage I've never seen before.

#50 Looking at his bio, I think it's pretty clear that the decline went back before then. He won a really tough bout against Smirnova in the quarterfinals of the 2006 K1 tournament. There was some doubt about his ability to make the semis based on how tough the fight had been, but a CAT scan found no problems and Sakuraba was going to go forward.

During training he started vomiting and then fainted. Rarely a good sign for any fighter. A real thorough examination found years and years (going back to his college days) of untreated head trauma.

I will need to admit to watching Total Divas on E! to make this point, but you can also tell the Bellas apart when they speak: Nikki, aforementioned owner of big, fat, fake knockers, is more of a ditz, and comes off as way too submissive to be in a real-life relationship with John Cena. Brie, now married in real life to Daniel Bryan, seems more down to earth and appears to have a healthier outlook on how romantic relationships should run.

Yes, I know I'm basing this on a "reality" show depicting folks who pretend for a living.

Further to #60, elite wrestlers have consistently done very well in MMA. Lesnar actually probably isn't the best example -- wins against Couture, Carwin and Mir notwithstanding.

Even the best wrestlers can't jump into MMA cold, but that's true of any martial arts discipline. Lesnar's loss to Mir shows why. He was slightly sloppy with his technique -- in a way that would never cost him in wrestling and had to tap fairly shortly.

Absolutely nothing that makes it on the air is a shoot. Everything is a work. Everything. And that's ok. Even though it all sucks now. It's all foolishness, and the humor doesn't compare to "the old days". Standing in the ring and working the mic used to be called "cheap". Now, it's standard, because, well, the masses are asses.

Yeah, that was horseshit, too, in the non-WWE category of minor league promotion looking to make noise.
edit...IOW, "go on air and be outrageous" was how that was loosely scripted. So he said some stupid stuff and got fired. But if you asked him, I'll bet he'd say he intended to use that line of BS to fan the flames of a "feud" and sell tickets.

Absolutely nothing that makes it on the air is a shoot. Everything is a work. Everything. And that's ok. Even though it all sucks now. It's all foolishness, and the humor doesn't compare to "the old days". Standing in the ring and working the mic used to be called "cheap". Now, it's standard, because, well, the masses are asses.

Gilbert's explanation (seen here) was that while he was on tour in Japan, Jerry Lawler's son cut promos that included all sorts of accusations about his family. When Gilbert returned from Japan he was told to cut a promo against Lawler's son and his tag team partner and he was jetlagged and so worked up by the promos against his family that he made a mistake and included Lawler in it.

To me the interesting thing about worked shoots is they almost always end badly:

Gilbert's shoot on Lawler led to the promotion getting in hot water with the tv station and losing their status as a WWF development territory.

Brian Pillman's "I respect you bookerman" shoot led to him getting fired from WCW in a move that was supposed to be completely fake... until Pillman signed WWF's first guaranteed contract.

Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart agreed to take personal shots at each other to make their feud more interesting, then worked themselves into an actual feud that more or less led to the Montreal Screwjob.

Vince Russo was supposed to cut a scathing promo against Hulk Hogan on a WCW PPV and Hogan turned around and sued him for defamation of character.

The CM Punk vs Jeff Hardy feud ended with Hardy serving time for possessing over 1,000 pills and other drug paraphernalia.

Just finished No Mercy '99. The storylines have gotten really confusing at this point. Granted, I'm not watching the Raws/Smackdowns that come between PPVs but every PPV it seems like guys have made 17 different turns since the last PPV. They've also gone all in on the whole "Attitude" thing as guys are constantly blading. Other thoughts:

-The overall quality of PPV lineups is much improved thanks in large part to the development of the tag team division and emerging youngsters The Hardy Boyz and Edge and Christian.
-I never realized how over Chyna, Road Dogg and X-Pac were
-The Bad Ass Billy Gunn push was so misguided
-It's amazing that Triple H rose to main event status in '99 and just (kind of) main evented a Wrestlemania 2 weeks ago.
-British Bulldog's re-emergence and quick insertion into a PPV main event seemed really bizarre. Not sure what the story is/was there.
-Does Austin get any demerits for the fact that his all-time greatest rival is/was Mr. McMahon? It was a hugely popular storyline, but these matches are not exactly great to watch.
-Shane O'Mac takes insane bumps.
-The title changes hands. So. Damn. Much.

-The overall quality of PPV lineups is much improved thanks in large part to the development of the tag team division and emerging youngsters The Hardy Boyz and Edge and Christian.

That was kind of a once in a generation thing but really great. It probably helped that the teams had a strong backing from JR and Michael Hayes.

-I never realized how over Chyna, Road Dogg and X-Pac were
[/quote

2/3. X-Pac was so unpopular that he eventually lent his name to the nickname of go-away heat.

-The Bad Ass Billy Gunn push was so misguided

He had everything but COULD NOT TALK. He could have been a big star in an era with managers. Not a coincidence that his greatest success was in a tag team with a mouthpiece for a partner. His singles music was also one of the worst songs in wrestling history.

-It's amazing that Triple H rose to main event status in '99 and just (kind of) main evented a Wrestlemania 2 weeks ago.

Critics will say that it's because he married the boss's daughter. I'm sure it didn't hurt, but I think his longevity is a huge point in his favor. He's kind of like Craig Biggio. Really good for a long time. Probably not a franchise player without support. Some great strengths, but some obvious weaknesses.

-Does Austin get any demerits for the fact that his all-time greatest rival is/was Mr. McMahon? It was a hugely popular storyline, but these matches are not exactly great to watch.

McMahon obviously wasn't a wrestler. The heat he transferred onto Austin's feuds with Rock, Kane, Undertaker, HHH, and others matters a great deal, though, and counts in favor of both of them.

-Shane O'Mac takes insane bumps.

He has openly acknowledged that he felt like he had to go further than anyone else to earn the respect of "the boys."

-The title changes hands. So. Damn. Much.

This is one problem with that era that I think people forget when they looked at it with rose colored glasses. Another is the fact that the midcard was pretty terrible. They went from the atrocious gang warfare thing with DOA, Los Boriquas, and those bizarre military guys to heavily gimmicked feuds with the likes of Val Venis, Marc Mero, Al Snow, Kurgan, Dan Severn, D-Lo Brown, etc. If you go back and watch the middle third of Raw from that era, it's so much Val Venis. Nobody should complain about the midcard today.

berg, I figure this thread is gonna wrap up sometime soon and I need someone to bounce these random observations off as I work through these PPVs, send me your contact info...please.

2/3. X-Pac was so unpopular that he eventually lent his name to the nickname of go-away heat.

Really? Whenever he breaks out a Bronco Buster the crowd pops like crazy. (As an aside, as a kid I never realized just how homo-erotic wrestling was...NTTIAWWT)

Critics will say that it's because he married the boss's daughter. I'm sure it didn't hurt, but I think his longevity is a huge point in his favor. He's kind of like Craig Biggio. Really good for a long time. Probably not a franchise player without support. Some great strengths, but some obvious weaknesses.

Agree with your take. Earlier today I was thinking of him in the sense of Hank Aaron. He's probably main evented more Wrestlemanias/had more title runs than anyone and it probably kind of sort of snuck up on everyone.

The heat he transferred onto Austin's feuds with Rock, Kane, Undertaker, HHH, and others matters a great deal, though, and counts in favor of both of them.

I felt this way as a kid and I still feel this way rewatching this stuff...Kane was awesome. Of the step over the top rope wrestlers I think he had by far the most physical talent. Almost as impressive a look as Sid, but a muuuuuch better performer. Obviously, his gimmick limited any chance of getting over on the mic but I don't think any of the bigs was really known for that. Maybe Nash? He got the "unstoppable monster" push but I kind of wanted him to be in the title picture more. Maybe that will happen down the line as I pretty much didn't watch between '02 and '13.

EDIT: This is one problem with that era that I think people forget when they looked at it with rose colored glasses. Another is the fact that the midcard was pretty terrible. They went from the atrocious gang warfare thing with DOA, Los Boriquas, and those bizarre military guys to heavily gimmicked feuds with the likes of Val Venis, Marc Mero, Al Snow, Kurgan, Dan Severn, D-Lo Brown, etc. If you go back and watch the middle third of Raw from that era, it's so much Val Venis. Nobody should complain about the midcard today.

There's been, like...a lot of Ken Shamrock, Al Snow, and Steve Blackman. Like, A LOT. Shamrock is just the ####### worst. No charisma. Terrible gimmick. Not even sure it's really a gimmick. Hate everything about it. I actually kind of like D'Lo's in-ring ability. I think if he lost a few more pounds he could have maybe been a star.

The CM Punk vs Jeff Hardy feud ended with Hardy serving time for possessing over 1,000 pills and other drug paraphernalia.

that was a great feud. in like 30 seconds, punk went from a bland/ish face to stealing the title off of jeff hardy, who just won it and was probably the most over face at the time.

then he ran hardy down on the mic every week for 3 months without saying a single thing that wasn't true and the fans absolutely hated him for it. punk was 100% right about everything he said, and he was the most hated guy on the roster because of it. it was beautiful.

Further to #60, elite wrestlers have consistently done very well in MMA. Lesnar actually probably isn't the best example -- wins against Couture, Carwin and Mir notwithstanding.

Even the best wrestlers can't jump into MMA cold, but that's true of any martial arts discipline. Lesnar's loss to Mir shows why. He was slightly sloppy with his technique -- in a way that would never cost him in wrestling and had to tap fairly shortly.

There are few legit "elite wrestlers" in Pro Wrestling. Brock Lesner is not one. He was a 2 time Junior College Heavyweight champ and a NCAA champ, but did it in the weakest weight category, heavyweight. His technique was never world class, in both college wrestling and later in MMA he won using his size and strength. And he wasn't a great MMA fighter, he finished with a record of 5 wins, 3 losses, and was brutally overmatched against Overeem & Cain Valesquez. He outweighed Randy Couture by more than 60 lbs and was half his age when they fought, and IIRC it was a pretty competitive fight till Brock was finally able to put his weight to bear on Randy.

Kurt Angle was a truly elite wrestler, supposedly he would toy with Brock Lesner whenever they worked out on the mat, and one can wonder how well he would have done in MMA. There have been some others, Steve Williams, Jack Brisco, Bob Backlund, Mad Dog Vachon, etc, but todays WWE stars, while tough and talented, predominantly don't have the skills needed to compete in MMA or high levels of wrestling. Bobby Lashley was a national champ, but in NAIA. I still remember my college wrestling partner jumping up a weight class for our dual with a NAIA school (we were Div II) just so he could torture the NAIA champion for a round before pinning him. Dolph Ziggler and Jack Swagger were excellent college wrestlers, but IIRC Ziggler never placed at nationals and Swagger's best finish was 7th.

And he wasn't a great MMA fighter, he finished with a record of 5 wins, 3 losses, and was brutally overmatched against Overeem & Cain Valesquez.

That was after his lengthy hospitalization for diverticulitis and septic perotinitis, conditions so severe he required surgery on two separate occasions. As a fighter he was clearly not the same afterwards and appeared to lose a fair bit of muscle mass and core strength.

Researchers have deciphered a Greek document that shows an ancient wrestling match was fixed. The document, which has a date on it that corresponds to the year A.D. 267, is a contract between two teenagers who had reached the final bout of a prestigious series of games in Egypt.

Documented evidence of the first illegal chairshot is expected to be forthcoming shortly. Evidence of referees being distracted to allow illegal tactics is so ubiquitous as to go unmentioned.

Agree with #73, and I'll add that he was arguably robbed in the first Mir fight by a very aggressive Steve Mazzagatti decision to stand them up and deduct a point from a dominant position. Anyway, Mazzagatti and diverticulitis aside, the fact he remains that he won the heavyweight championship and defended it twice. Considering nobody has ever defended that belt three times in a row, I think you have to give him some credit. Maybe your definition of great is Anderson Silva and nobody else, which would be fine, but I think you're a bit too dismissive of what he accomplished in the UFC.

And he wasn't a great MMA fighter, he finished with a record of 5 wins, 3 losses, and was brutally overmatched against Overeem & Cain Valesquez. He outweighed Randy Couture by more than 60 lbs and was half his age when they fought, and IIRC it was a pretty competitive fight till Brock was finally able to put his weight to bear on Randy.

5 wins and 3 losses greatly undersells what he did, since he wasn't some guy who worked his way up through the regional circuit building a record against novices and journeymen. Outside of his first pro fight, every one of his matches was against someone who had held or fought for a heavyweight title in a major promotion: Frank Mir (ex-UFC champ), Heath Herring (fought Big Nog for the PRIDE title), Randy Couture (UFC champ), Mir again, Shane Carwin (in a title defense), Cain Velasquez (in a title defense), and Alistair Overeem (ex-Strikeforce champ, ex-DREAM champ, ex-K1 champ). Anyone who can manage a winning record against that caliber of competition is a pretty great fighter.

Also, while Couture was 900 years old, he was still the ####### heavyweight champ and consensus best non-Fedor heavyweight in the sport at the time of the fight. It's not like Lesnar could hop into a time machine and fly back to 2002, to shove Ricco Rodriguez out of the way and fight Couture in his physical prime. He fought the best guys he was able to fight, and that's all you can ask of a fighter.

Researchers have deciphered a Greek document that shows an ancient wrestling match was fixed. The document, which has a date on it that corresponds to the year A.D. 267, is a contract between two teenagers who had reached the final bout of a prestigious series of games in Egypt.

Documented evidence of the first illegal chairshot is expected to be forthcoming shortly.

And rocketed to fame by knocking out a huge wrestler in Tom Erikson, a guy who many fighters simply refused to face because he was so big (290lb) and well-skilled in wrestling (2-time All-American at Oklahoma State).

The WWF tried some shoot fighting with the Brawl For All but they wouldn't use any of their real big names and it didn't go the way they wanted when Steve Williams got KO'ed by Bart Gunn. Which led to Butterbean KO'ing Gunn with essentially one punch in Wrestlemania. And I don't think Butterbean would have done real well in MMA.

Butterbean was always somewhat of a novelty act in MMA, about a half-step below Minowaman and a half-step above Bob Sapp, but give the man credit - he had very legitimate knockout power in that right hand. His first fight against Cabbage Correira was a lot more entertaining than it had any right to be.

Butterbean's sons Brandon (a.k.a. "Babybean") and Caleb have both fought in low-level pro MMA, too. They've got a total of one win between them, but still, props for getting in the cage and giving it a shot.

Lesnar's problem always seemed to be that he didn't care for being punched in the face. When he had his surgeries he lost the little bit of edge that let him blow through people.

His main problem is they added a weight limit. He didn't just lose muscle mass because if surgeries, he was forced to cut weight for the very first time and didn't like that, it took away his only edge.

i'm probably undersold him but I still don't see an elite heavyweight. he clearly dominated Frank Mir in both fights, he was pretty good but nowhere near Junior dos Santos and Cain Velasquez.

And Randy couture was a light heavyweight. it was amazing that he could win the heavyweight title against bigger fighters at his age but when he ran into Brock Lesnar Q and into the biggest strongest fighter who's ever walked into the octagon that was a little bit too much for him.

Will never deny the unique size and strength of Brock Lesnar but his technique was always lacking. no one should ever defend Brock Lesnar against Alastair Overeem by playing the steroids card because it goes both ways, Brock gained 60 pounds of muscle in 2 years and junior college

And Randy couture was a light heavyweight. it was amazing that he could win the heavyweight title against bigger fighters at his age but when he ran into Brock Lesnar Q and into the biggest strongest fighter who's ever walked into the octagon that was a little bit too much for him.

If you're saying that Couture didn't count, you're saying that there were no top heavyweights in the UFC (and by extension that there were no top heavyweights of any sort outside of, I would assume, Fedor, or maybe Josh Barnett). I don't think that's a tenable position.

no one should ever defend Brock Lesnar against Alastair Overeem by playing the steroids card because it goes both ways, Brock gained 60 pounds of muscle in 2 years and junior college

There's an important distinction between a guy who passed all his drug tests in the UFC (like Lesnar) and a guy who went out of his way to duck a test before his first UFC fight and tested positive before his second (like Overeem).

I used to work out with a guy who wrestled on Brock's team in Juco (I grew up in ND and he went to JC in Bismarck). The guy told me that Brock would openly take any enhancement substance he could get his hands on and his teammates had to scrub down his back with steel wool the morning of matches so he wouldn't burst his cystic acne and bleed all over the mat. Good times!

How good of a true wrestler is Cody Rhodes? They trumpet that he was undefeated in HS in Georgia but I don't k know how impressive that is and he never wrestled in college.

Even if there has been a move away from elite amateur wrestlers, they have also moved toward fewer totally hopeless guys. Of guys who have started in WWE in the last 10 years or so (excluding Great Khali, basically), everyone on the roster is at least somewhat skilled and not totally green.

I find it odd that folks watch wrestling for the athleticism. It's bizarre. To each his own, I guess. For me, this is what attracts (past tense, you don't find anything like this these days) me to wrestling.

Yeah, it's long, but there is an interview between Farouk (Ernie Roth) and some guy I hadn't heard of named Eddie Kreechman at 1:05:58 that is hilarious.

Speaking of Big Time, Shoemaker wrote a really good history of The Sheik and wrestling in Detroit for Grantland that posted today. I love his historical stuff. He covers it better than anyone who wasn't there, in my opinion.

I saw Gorilla Monsoon beat Baron Mikel Sicluna in 9 seconds at the Boston Garden around 1968 when, just after the bell rang, Sicluna charged at Monsoon, who turned just in time to sidestep him while giving a judo chop to his throat, and then pinning him. Someone didn't feel like working that night.

Also forgot how much WWF loved using cars as part of storylines. I think someone has tried to run over someone else at least 6 times in the last 4 PPVs. And almost every main event match features a spot where the wrestlers go into the crowd.

Please keep posting reviews of the WWF PPV from the late 90's and early 2000's. That was the only time during my adult life that I watched wrestling (friend had free PPV access) and I loved watching the crazy #### they put on. Your reviews bring back many memories.

Also forgot how much WWF loved using cars as part of storylines. I think someone has tried to run over someone else at least 6 times in the last 4 PPVs. And almost every main event match features a spot where the wrestlers go into the crowd.

They weren't the only ones. I remember from WCW when the Giant and Hulk Hogan had a monster truck sumo match on PPV, with both trucks up on top of a building.

It's not Judy Bagwell on a pole, but it's pretty weird, even for WCW standards.

-I've always been a Stone Cold guy, but The Rock has (more or less) been 1B for 15 months now and (in part due to staying healthier) is showing a lot more in-ring development. I feel like by the time I'm done with this I'm going to change into a Rock was the GOAT guy. He's unquestionably the best ever on the mic. Well, with the possible exception of Flair, so let's call that a tie.

-Pretty much every Hardy Boyz match is a showstealer. I've read some accusations of them being "spot monkeys" and maybe that becomes true later on (I don't know), but I think as of right now they're putting together great matches that happen to have huge spots. The Tag Team Ladder Match at No Mercy '99 was terrific and the Tables match at Rumble '00 was also pretty good.

-The Jericho feud with Chyna is kind of annoying because he's supposed to be the heel, but the crowd clearly loves him and feels that he is above this at this point. I agree with the crowd.

-I forgot that Rikishi was a thing. And as a kid all of the veiled and not so veiled references to Grandmaster Sexay being the King's son went over my head.

-The Cactus Jack vs. HHH promo for Rumble '00 is, for my money, the first GREAT WWF promo. Relatively succinct and gave me all of the information I needed to understand what was at stake and how the story developed. I think the WWF guys should do the promos for all playoff games in all sports.

-I haven't thought about Taz in over a decade so I forgot that he debuted at Rumble '00. I think when this PPV initially happened I used to read 4wrestling.com and I had just kinda/sorta discovered ECW and thought Taz and RVD were the most amazing wrestlers ever. Taz's debut blew my mind back then and was still great now. The crowd gave a huge pop and he had a short but effective match with Angle that established his gimmick and gave a taste of what he could do in the ring. I'm pretty sure this is the highlight of his (wasted) WWF career though so that really sucks.

One of the things I've had to get used to is the first time a guy uses what will eventually become his finisher (a) the announcers don't refer to it by its eventual name, with JR typically attempting to call it by a technical term (b) the move being kicked out of.

EDIT: At one point I think the Rock, er, Rocky Maiva's finisher was a cross body. Then when he started working in The Rock Bottom guys would kick out of it and the People's Elbow had a whole lot less flash. He was so so bad in the beginning though. Just really stiff and probably overly bulky.