You say your book is available on the IAAF site. I am interested in purchasing it, but i am curious about some of the particulars of the book. Does it include sample workouts or programs from general to specific training? Does it go over how you change from more general work in your beginning years to more specific work in later years? Does it go over more than just marathon training...and i am sure there are other questions? But if you could answer these i would be very interested in trying to get away from do this always or this always. Thanks.

Obviously I'm not Renato but i can answer some of your questions because I have the book.

Firstly, just buy the thing. Its cheap and is bursting with imformation. Its short (which is a good thing, IMO). It contains scientific explanations and pratical reasons/solutions. Its very readable. Its an excellent reference book. It has loads of specific examples of training for his (others) athletes.

Your Q, My A:Does it include sample workouts or programs from general to specific training? Yes & Yes

Does it go over how you change from more general work in your beginning years to more specific work in later years? Not really. It does discuss a seasons breakdown into different trainnig periods but not a lot on how an athletes training should evolve from yr to yr.

Does it go over more than just marathon training...and i am sure there are other questions? It is geared towards marathon training BUT there is certainly worthwhile information for 3k-10k runners.

murunner wrote:Renato,

You say your book is available on the IAAF site. I am interested in purchasing it, but i am curious about some of the particulars of the book. Does it include sample workouts or programs from general to specific training? Does it go over how you change from more general work in your beginning years to more specific work in later years? Does it go over more than just marathon training...and i am sure there are other questions? But if you could answer these i would be very interested in trying to get away from do this always or this always. Thanks.

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:I have some doubt seeing the weight (67,6 kg seem to me too many for a runner 1.74 tall), so I suppose that he can be a "muscular" type of runner. But probably this is due also to the lack of long run. I think that, if this guy goes to long run (for example, twice a week 1 hr 20:00 progressive with last 20-30 min fast) he can lose 3 kg becoming about 64 kg heavy.____________________________________________________________First of all, I appreciate very very much your quick response. I understand how busy you must be with the planning, analizing and the direct coaching of your elite athletes, besides all the administrative tasks.

Yes, this athlete is a "muscular" type his % of fat currently is 10.6, soft lean mass is 55.9 kg and lean body mass is 59.7 kg. I work with him since 8 years ago, so I know he is talented for long distances. But I was waiting to improve the 800-1500 m before moving him up. But you just gave me several ideas that can fit in our program. And of course we won't wait any longer.

5) And use full speed with very long recovery, for example 5 x 400 in 53 rec. 8:00, or 3 x 600 in 1:22 rec. 8:00, for increasing the LACTIC POWER, that is a very important part of training.

He has done this particular session in the last 2 years with an average of 52 segs and same rest as you have suggested. Besides has done 2 x 800 in 1:52 wtih 2 laps jogging in 6 min.We will train during the next 5 weeks in Toluca City, altitude 2700m with some forests at 3000 m, just 50 km west of Mexico City and then will move to train for 3 weeks at lower altitude of 1600 m, just before making his debut at 5000 m in early June in Victoria, Canada.

Are you the guy who went to Morocco and wrote up the Hicham El Guerrouj training piece?

Yes, I am the one who wrote that article long time ago, but never have been in Morocco. My sources were written from articles by the Spanish coaches and their Athletics Federation. Talks with Said Aouita who has been here in Mexico several times. in 1999 I met coach Abdelakder Kada (El Guerrouj coach) in Spain and made me some corrections like the rest interval between the 400's. and other things. He gave a lecture for the Spanish coaches in Caceres, Spain which I attended of course. After the sessions were over, we had a long conversation with other Spanish coach about his methodology and the Moroccan system.Since then I have met him several times in Europe, we were at the same race in Zaragoza, Spain (June 2004) where my athlete won the 1500 m "B" race and Hicham El G won the "A" race, their splits:El Guerrouj 3:36.11 (almost beaten at the finish line)57.2, 1:56.64, 2:55.37 and 40.74Mexican athlete 3:40.6856.9, 1:56.32, 2:56.0, 44.10

I will share with you some experiences with the Chinese coaches that are working right now in Mexico.

This subject about the TALENT of an athlete is very interesting, I would like to share an experience with the Chinese coaches.

There are about 35 Chinese coaches from different sports spread all over Mexico. The bosses from the Mexican Sports Government believed that in bringing these Chinese coaches they would improve the level of the Mexican sports men and women in general, but they did not realize the big cultural differences between Chinese and Mexicans athletes, they have nothing in common!!!Anyway they arrived to Mexico in April 2003. I was assigned one of them, a distance coach and in fact their Team Leader by name Qian Wang Hui, a very good man and nice person. Since the beginning we had communication problems, none of them speaks English or Spanish, only their native language and I don't speak or understand Chinese, so I felt like in a police movie: where a local policeman has a new and strange partner and does not like him but they are forced to work together. In 20 years of coaching I never had had an assistant coach with my groups!! So, He arrived and suddenly began to tell my athletes what to do in a very strange language, it was very funny at the beginning but soon we both started to have some differences and problems.Trying to find a solution, we both "hired" Chinese people based in Mexico City to translate our discussions, so I began to discover his training philosophy, which is very similar to the one described in The IAAF quarterly magazine "New Studies in Athletics" issue 4, December 1993. In that interview, Chinese coach Ma Junren describes in general his training methodology with his women WR holders.Their system has proven with excellent results for them IN THE PAST, but it can not be applied to our people or in a western society for sure!!In China the talent detection is one of the key ingredients in their program. In Mexico, when we see a 16 year old girl that runs the 800 in 2:11-2:12, We think she might become a good distance athlete during the next years. But for the Chinese coaches means nothing!!! He says that in China a lot of 12-13 year old girls run those times with almost no training. He has told me several stories about how they chose the talented young men and women. They travel to the rural areas and small villages, using several of the known scientific methods (blood test, VO2 Max, etc.) but also some not so common like putting the boys and girls in a squat position against the wall and see how long the can hold the position, if one of them says "I am done" or "I can not hold any more", then they are slapped very hard by the selectors, they must endure, and if they begin to cry then they are considered lacking the mental strength or are not enough tough to begin training. The chosen ones must complete every training task or session with no chance to question the program. The good side of the chosen athletes is that they get paid good money since the beginning, besides all the other expenses are paid (meals, housing, travel to competitions, etc.) and their families also get some material and financial aid.This coach worked 6 years together with Ma Junren, he was the National Men's Coach and Ma was the National Women's coach. When he saw our training methodology and our training environment he told me that I was a "soft" coach, that we did very little training, 130-140 km per week was "little" for him. That my athletes did not have the discipline for arriving 5-10 minutes late for the training sessions. So I began to asking what is "little" and why and what is "enough" for each athlete. For middle and distance athletes they used to do 30-40 km every day in 2 sessions since YOUNG AGE, it means 190-240 km (150 miles) per week!! So I asked him:"What happens if one day one of the athletes wakes up one morning very tired and does not want to complete the session?" "Do you listen to him/her and give him/her and easy day" The answer was: NO!! "They have to complete the training program" "You Marco have a soft heart !!!"He showed me one of the pictures of the IAAF article during a 30 km long run where the coach drives a motorbike, he told me that coach Ma several times pushed his athletes with his vehicle to make sure they run fast enough (sub-3:30/km pace) or if they were tired and did not want to train for some reason, then coach Ma used to take the athlete on his motorbike to a far mountain or forest, then left them there with no money and no food, same training distance far away. So the girl had no choice but to come back 40 km on foot to the Village and the best and quick way was running. He believed this system made them very tough athletes during the competitions.We could never apply this methodology with our athletes in Mexico, we have a different approach.He has learnt Spanish and we have better communication, but currently as team leader or "Mission Chief" as he is called over here, he does more administrative job for the other Chinese coaches and almost has no time for the training.

But its funny how the Chinese "system", so systematic, and so disciplined, and so good at indentifying talent (all according to what their coaches told you), when applied to the apparently HUGE Chinese talent pool................has produced ZERO superstar MALE distance runners. But when applied to the women's side, it produced (TEMPORARILY) the greatest contingent of runners and swimmers the world has ever seen.......but then after many drug accusations and busts, even the great woman performers suddenly disappered too (besides a couple here and there). Funny how that works.

Sort of reminds me of the "Great East German system", so technical, so intense, so precise, so.........DIRTY.

(and this is why I DON'T think the East Africans are dirty. BECAUSE......they have had REALLY great performers for 1/2 a century now, and have been unbelievable dominant for 15-20 years without any letup, and now their women ALSO are becoming dominant. The East Africans are no flash in the pan. When countries have sudden flashes of greatness, and then those flashes quickly die out, or countries produce superb perfomers VERY DISPROPORTIONATELY in the female gender [the males don't do nearly as well], then a red flag goes up concerning drug use. It went up with the East Germans and Chinese, and they both got busted big time. People have tried to raise this "red flag" with the East Africans, but pretty soon people will instead need to raise a WHITE FLAG, and give up their drug accusations, because they ain't sticking)

Also, I am sure someone will say: "how dare you accuse the Chinese, when you so staunchly defend the East Africans." Well, I have already laid out my logic (as you put it) for justifiably doing just that.

The Chinese have a need to show how good their political and social system is, their athletes are state property and we won't see them popping up at the Grand Prix meetings, but I'm certain that there'll be some big suprises in store when the games are run in Peking, they'll shine there all right.

It's funny how Renato describes how passionate he is about the sport, and how everyone says he is a good coach, but he will only help super elite African or Italian runners (or Lebid, I suppose). A bunch of 15-17:30 5K guys have asked him for some advice and he patently ignores their multiple questions, but as soon as that 1:48 guy's coach asks or that guy a few pages back running 14-something for 5K..boom, Renato replies.

That post reminds me of a story my friend told me about Kim McDonald. He was at a party somewhere and got introduced to Kim. When asked about his 10k PR, he said 29:50. McDonald gave him a rude response, something to the effect of "that is not very good", and went back to talking to the elites in the room.

As for Renato, I think he has expressed that he regrets not having the time to respond to all questions. We should be grateful that he is giving any insight at all. Also, it is difficult to help 1 individual he has never seen run.

I would also disagree with your final statement. I suspect there are not many coaches that handle both elites(Grand Prix types) and 15:00-17:30 5k types.

It is all good fun to read about some 12:48 5K runner and his repeat mile workouts in 4:05 each, but do you think that's going to help you PR in the 5K? My point is it is obvious that any elite runner who chimes in on this thread (Several sub-1:50 800 runners, a 14:00+ 5K guy, and a 3:40-something 1500 runner) have extracted immediate replies whereas a bunch of guys running slower have asked and no reply for them.

True, there are not many coaches with the range of abilities, but Renato's the one who posts. He should expect questions from everyone, and I am merely curious why he answers the fast people and not the slower ones who still wish to improve and work hard. Trackhead, you are pretty fast--26 something for 8K, no? I didn't see any advice he offered you on this thread.

If you are too stupid to understand what time you should run your miles in when a 12:48 runner is doing them in 4:05 you don't deserve an answer (but here it is: race pace)As Renato says: Use your fantasy, adapt the programs to your needs.