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Topic: All Christians are priests? (Read 2693 times)

1Pet2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Orthodoxy have a clergy title which is called " Priests" .

However, Most Protestant denominations teach that all Christians are the priests in Christ with the support of 1 Pet2:9. Does Orthodox agree with this teaching from Protestant?

1Pet2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Orthodoxy have a clergy title which is called " Priests" .

However, Most Protestant denominations teach that all Christians are the priests in Christ with the support of 1 Pet2:9. Does Orthodox agree with this teaching from Protestant?

Israel was called a priestly nation, yet they had the levitical priesthood with no contradiction.

A priest is one who offers a sacrifice. Every Christian is called to offer their lives, their bodies, their selves as a living sacrifice to God. Doing so is a priestly act.

At the Liturgy (the work of the people, not the work of the presbyter), it is not the "priest" who does the Liturgy like in Catholicism. In Orthodoxy there cannot be private Masses with just the priest. It is the work of the people. Everyone present is involved in doing the Liturgy. We all offer the bread and wine to God, and receive back the Body and Blood. The presbyter presides, but he cannot do it alone. If the people do not say "amen", he has no ability to proceed alone.

The Christian priest is the bishop. The presbyters are called father and priest by the people, to whom he is an extension of the priesthood of the bishop, but properly it is the bishop and not the presbyter who should be called priest. The priest in Orthodoxy is not another category from the people, it isn't clergy and people... the priest (bishop or presbyter as his extension) is a member of the local community who has been set aside to the role of service of priest. In this role of service, he is the crown of the assembly, making the gathered people the Church, and not just a gathering of Christians (though he cannot do this alone without the community to crown). He serves as an icon of Christ in the Liturgy, standing at the altar as Christ addressing the Father, remembering and making present the offering of Christ, the High Priest.

So the priestly role of the people and of the bishop/presbyter is completely complementary, and neither can function without the other.

1 peter 2:9 says that the Christians in Christ are the royal priesthood.How does Orthodox Church understand 1Peter 2:9?

Jonathan already mentioned that Israel was also considered a priestly nation, yet not all who were of Israel could serve in the temple as a priest. Those who were appointed to the sacramental priesthood belonged to the priestly nation, but not all who were of the priestly nation were permitted to serve in the sacramental priesthood.

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Exodus 19:3-6

And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

1 Peter 2:9 cannot be understood apart from Exodus 19:6. 1 Peter 2:9 simply affirms that the Church is the new Israel, and the promises of God to Israel are now understood as being for the Church.

1Pet2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Orthodoxy have a clergy title which is called " Priests" .

However, Most Protestant denominations teach that all Christians are the priests in Christ with the support of 1 Pet2:9. Does Orthodox agree with this teaching from Protestant?

Israel was called a priestly nation, yet they had the levitical priesthood with no contradiction.

A priest is one who offers a sacrifice. Every Christian is called to offer their lives, their bodies, their selves as a living sacrifice to God. Doing so is a priestly act.

At the Liturgy (the work of the people, not the work of the presbyter), it is not the "priest" who does the Liturgy like in Catholicism. In Orthodoxy there cannot be private Masses with just the priest. It is the work of the people. Everyone present is involved in doing the Liturgy. We all offer the bread and wine to God, and receive back the Body and Blood. The presbyter presides, but he cannot do it alone. If the people do not say "amen", he has no ability to proceed alone.

The Christian priest is the bishop. The presbyters are called father and priest by the people, to whom he is an extension of the priesthood of the bishop, but properly it is the bishop and not the presbyter who should be called priest. The priest in Orthodoxy is not another category from the people, it isn't clergy and people... the priest (bishop or presbyter as his extension) is a member of the local community who has been set aside to the role of service of priest. In this role of service, he is the crown of the assembly, making the gathered people the Church, and not just a gathering of Christians (though he cannot do this alone without the community to crown). He serves as an icon of Christ in the Liturgy, standing at the altar as Christ addressing the Father, remembering and making present the offering of Christ, the High Priest.

So the priestly role of the people and of the bishop/presbyter is completely complementary, and neither can function without the other.

1Pet2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Orthodoxy have a clergy title which is called " Priests" .

However, Most Protestant denominations teach that all Christians are the priests in Christ with the support of 1 Pet2:9. Does Orthodox agree with this teaching from Protestant?

The English word "priest" comes from "prest" which is short for "Presbyter".

The word you are referring to (royal priests) is Heiros if I remember correctly.

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Quote from: Orthonorm

if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Orthodox believe that all who are baptised in the Orthodox Church belong to the Royal Priesthood. The Laity (people) are called to be disciples, to be an icon of Christ and spread the good news. Following the custom of the Apostolic Church, there are three major orders each of which requires a special ordination. These are Bishop, who is viewed as a successor of the Apostles, Priest and Deacon, who act in the name of the Bishop. Each order is distinguished by its pastoral responsibilities. Only a Bishop may ordain. Through ordination, men who have been chosen from within the Church are set apart by the Church for special service to the Church. Each is called by God through His people to stand amid the community, as pastor and teacher, and as the representative of the parish before the Altar. Each is also a living icon of Christ among His people.

1 peter 2:9 says that the Christians in Christ are the royal priesthood.How does Orthodox Church understand 1Peter 2:9?

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I Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were heathen, you were led astray to dumb idols, however you may have been moved. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit. 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. 12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

Because all Christians are priests, some given the gift of the ordained Priesthood, the variety through which the One Priesthood of Christ works in serving the members of the Body of Christ in manifesting Him for the common good of communion of the Holy Mysteries of the Life in Christ.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

]The English word "priest" comes from "prest" which is short for "Presbyter".

The word you are referring to (royal priests) is Heiros if I remember correctly.

Indeed. It is Hiereus. A royal priesthood is "βασίλειον ἱεράτευμα" in 1 Peter 2:9. In English there is no distinction between hiereus and presvyteros, which is both often translated as 'priest'.

Oh, and btw, Met. Kallistos Ware held a speech about 1 Pet. 2:9 in last Orientale Lumen conference. Link.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 08:57:22 AM by Cyrillic »

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"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Because words can have different meanings. Meanings of words can also change.

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"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Scriptures also teaches that all christians are saints, why would Orthodoxy only recognise a few of dead Christians as "Saints"?

Any person can grow in holiness. The reason we remember some of them with feast days is pretty similar to the reason we have a President's Day or a Memorial Day. Some people leave a mark in a particular way.

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

Scriptures also teaches that all christians are saints, why would Orthodoxy only recognise a few of dead Christians as "Saints"?

Also, their bodies may have died but their souls have eternal life through Jesus Christ. If you don't believe that, you don't really believe Christ is Savior. When you say he saves us, what do you think it means?

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

People have answered both of your questions very well, Walter. Let me add my two cents.

Concerning priesthood, as people said, Israel had both a sacramental priesthood, the Levites, and all of Israel was considered a Royal Priesthood:

"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." (Exodus 19:6)

This is what St. Peter echoes in his epistle. The royal priesthood does not contradict the sacerdotal priesthood, both exist and serve functions. For the Body of Christ, the Holy Orthodox Church, we are all priests in the manner that we mediate for the whole world, sharing the Gospel and serving Christ. The ordained priesthood offers the Eucharist and serves the people, as did the Levitical priesthood of old.

As for saints. The word "saint" comes from the Latin "Sanctus" (Greek, "hagios") which simply means "holy", "consecrated" or "set apart." Certainly all Orthodox Christians are saints in the sense that they are set apart for Christ, different from the world. Those saints which exist on our calendar that we commemorate are those who have finished their race and are united with Christ, while the saints on Earth still struggle and persevere. There are many saints who have finished their race and are with Christ that God has not revealed to us, but those on our calendar are shown to us by God as examples on how to live a holy life, that we may obtain ourselves all that they have obtained.

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

I heard some Protestant pastors teach that the bible does not say that Church would have a position/ gift called 'Priest' . So, The early Church originally did not have 'Priest'.

The English word priest is derived from presbyteros, which is the Greek for elder, so yes they did and you shouldn't have too much trouble finding references to them

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Protestant Christians always say that bible and early church do not have Bishops as well.

Not all Protestants. Lutherans, for instance, (and I'm sure you're aware of who Luther was) have bishops. The word comes from the Greek episcopos which is overseer. Again you can find references easily enough.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

The English word priest is derived from presbyteros, which is the Greek for elder

When William Tyndale translated his Bible into English he used this translation and was put on the Rack by Rome for doing so as they thought it challenged their authority. What a shock there had to be a Reformation

« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 01:15:20 PM by Happy Lutheran »

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1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong

The English word priest is derived from presbyteros, which is the Greek for elder

When William Tyndale translated his Bible into English he used this translation and was put on the Rack by Rome for doing so as they thought it challenged their authority. What a shock there had to be a Reformation.

You make it sound like Tyndale did not intend for his translations to be a challenge to the authority of Rome. He knew exactly what he was doing, why he was doing it, and what reaction it would spark.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

You make it sound like Tyndale did not intend for his translations to be a challenge to the authority of Rome. He knew exactly what he was doing, why he was doing it, and what reaction it would spark.

I'm not trying to make it sound like that at all, that was the essence of the Reformation in the first place. I was just pointing out that the proper translation from the greek text was what Tyndale used and that type of thing was enough to be executed during the Inquisition.

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1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong

You make it sound like Tyndale did not intend for his translations to be a challenge to the authority of Rome. He knew exactly what he was doing, why he was doing it, and what reaction it would spark.

I'm not trying to make it sound like that at all, that was the essence of the Reformation in the first place. I was just pointing out that the proper translation from the greek text was what Tyndale used and that type of thing was enough to be executed during the Inquisition.

1Pet2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Orthodoxy have a clergy title which is called " Priests" .

However, Most Protestant denominations teach that all Christians are the priests in Christ with the support of 1 Pet2:9. Does Orthodox agree with this teaching from Protestant?

Israel was called a priestly nation, yet they had the levitical priesthood with no contradiction.

A priest is one who offers a sacrifice. Every Christian is called to offer their lives, their bodies, their selves as a living sacrifice to God. Doing so is a priestly act.

At the Liturgy (the work of the people, not the work of the presbyter), it is not the "priest" who does the Liturgy like in Catholicism. In Orthodoxy there cannot be private Masses with just the priest. It is the work of the people. Everyone present is involved in doing the Liturgy. We all offer the bread and wine to God, and receive back the Body and Blood. The presbyter presides, but he cannot do it alone. If the people do not say "amen", he has no ability to proceed alone.

The Christian priest is the bishop. The presbyters are called father and priest by the people, to whom he is an extension of the priesthood of the bishop, but properly it is the bishop and not the presbyter who should be called priest. The priest in Orthodoxy is not another category from the people, it isn't clergy and people... the priest (bishop or presbyter as his extension) is a member of the local community who has been set aside to the role of service of priest. In this role of service, he is the crown of the assembly, making the gathered people the Church, and not just a gathering of Christians (though he cannot do this alone without the community to crown). He serves as an icon of Christ in the Liturgy, standing at the altar as Christ addressing the Father, remembering and making present the offering of Christ, the High Priest.

So the priestly role of the people and of the bishop/presbyter is completely complementary, and neither can function without the other.

I love this, thank you for explaining!

Me too. Very well stated Jonathan.

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

You make it sound like Tyndale did not intend for his translations to be a challenge to the authority of Rome. He knew exactly what he was doing, why he was doing it, and what reaction it would spark.

I'm not trying to make it sound like that at all, that was the essence of the Reformation in the first place. I was just pointing out that the proper translation from the greek text was what Tyndale used and that type of thing was enough to be executed during the Inquisition.

What makes the Tyndale translation the "proper" one?

It isn't. Presbyter-priest and episkopos-bishop are even etymologically related.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 07:19:41 AM by Cyrillic »

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"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

The English word priest is derived from presbyteros, which is the Greek for elder

When William Tyndale translated his Bible into English he used this translation and was put on the Rack by Rome for doing so

I approve. Those biased protestant bible translations annoy me with their "overseer" and "elder".

So you approve of someone being sent to the rack because they annoy you?

In an ideal world...

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"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

You make it sound like Tyndale did not intend for his translations to be a challenge to the authority of Rome. He knew exactly what he was doing, why he was doing it, and what reaction it would spark.

I'm not trying to make it sound like that at all, that was the essence of the Reformation in the first place. I was just pointing out that the proper translation from the greek text was what Tyndale used and that type of thing was enough to be executed during the Inquisition.

King Henry VIII did the same thing to lots of Roman Catholics, but who's counting?

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

There is a point that has been made a couple times that I don't think has been stressed enough (as indicated by the fact the the OP has asked the question after those points were made):

(Also, forgive me if I do not transliterate these Greek words into English as properly as some would like)

There are two concepts in both the Hebrew and the Greek (I will only deal with the Greek) that each have their own respective word in those languages. One is the concept of an "elder", and that is the word "presvyteros" (i.e., "presbyter"). The word "presvyteros" is used throughout the Old Testament (by that I mean the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, or LXX) in cases such as the "elders" that Moses appointed to assist him in administering the affairs of Israel. It is also used in the New Testament when Christ deals with the "elders" and other leaders of Judea, in addition to the church office of elder/presbyter.

The other concept is that of someone who approaches God on behalf of the people". The Greek word used in both the Old Testament and the New Testament is the word "hiereus". The word "heireus" is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the Levites and the sons of Aaron, as well as to those from the surrounding pagan religions who were in charge of invoking those gods.

Unfortunately, for us English speakers, we do not have two separate words to convey those two separate concepts. However, one of those words has made its way into the English language, and that is the word "presvyteros", which is the same as the christian office of "elder". That word was shortened a little bit in Latin to the form "prestus", from which we get the word "priest". But there is not a distinct word for the Greek word "hiereus", and the word "priest" is used in the English language to denote both of the concepts.

So it is important that when we use the word "priest" we understand the context, and if we are referring to a "presvyteros" or to a "hiereus". An Orthodox priest is an Orthodox "presvyteros". Christ is our high "hiereus", while all of us (i.e., the baptized) are all a "hiereus".

Who is the first 'Saint' that the Church recognised? When did the church start having this tradition,e.g recognising the saints?

It started as a remembrance of the martyrs, and probably also the lives of the prominent apostles and evangelists of the first century. But for a while it was mostly the martyrs that were celebrated as saints.