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My point was: that Jigsaw had some horrible ideas and beliefs, but he planned all things rationally. Unlike some lunatic crazy serial killers. Jigsaw was the type of mastermind killer. So was Beatrice.

No, Kyrie was not a wonderful, nor a loving woman. My CURRENT hypothesis is that She prized family above everything, including her own children. Not that she did not care about her children, but she would sacrifice them if she weigh them against the whole family.

I modified my hypothesis from time to time. So if it confused you who the hell I am accusing of accomplicing with Beatrice, sorry. Possibly due to my poor communication skills. Briefly speaking, you have to read my latest posts to know what i am positing currently.

How? Because Beatrice went to Rokkenjima not only at family meetings. The simpliest explanation...

Then you're obviously making stuff up. Kyrie waited almost 12 years to marry Rudolf, got disowned by the Sumaderas for choosing a man they didn't want her with, and you say SHE WANTED TO HELP THEM?

Then you're obviously making stuff up. Kyrie waited almost 12 years to marry Rudolf, got disowned by the Sumaderas for choosing a man they didn't want her with, and you say SHE WANTED TO HELP THEM?

You are right.

I am making up things. But somehow I got the feeling that Beatrice would not abandon her family no matter how it mistreated her from her dialogue with Battler in EP4.

If Kyrie was Beatrice, then she would not abandon her family no matter what. (as said by Kasumi in EP4, she commented that mere disownment as punishment was too lenient at all if Kyrie had a bastard child with Rudolf. She insisted that there must be some secret deals behind.)

My wild speculation was that disownment was only a facade, marrying Rudolf was part of the plan to get the gold.

No, Kyrie was not a wonderful, nor a loving woman. My CURRENT hypothesis is that She prized family above everything, including her own children. Not that she did not care about her children, but she would sacrifice them if she weigh them against the whole family.

So in the name of family, she's willing to destroy her own. Okay.

And the thing is you have two inherently contradictory goals for Kyrie. She has a goal of getting the Sumaderas and destroying the Ushiromiyas, and at the same time wants to get the Ushiromiyas to unite in the name of family. I see a contradiction here in your theory.

Quote:

You are right.

I am making up things. But somehow I got the feeling that Beatrice would not abandon her family no matter how it mistreated her from her dialogue with Battler in EP4.

If Kyrie was Beatrice, then she would not abandon her family no matter what. (as said by Kasumi in EP4, she commented that mere disownment as punishment was too lenient at all if Kyrie had a bastard child with Rudolf. She insisted that there must be some secret deals behind.)

My wild speculation was that disownment was only a facade, marrying Rudolf was part of the plan to get the gold. .

Pretty much right in you're making things up. You have absolutely no evidence that Kyrie thinks anything about the Sumaderas other than hatred, and no evidence that there were actually good terms between them, while we have evidence that they did not have good terms due to disownment. It's already been addressed why they just disowned her (Ange implies that the Ushiromiyas bribed the Sumaderas to shut up) and while we can't disprove your theory with certainty, it's pretty illogical with everything we've seen.

And the thing is you have two inherently contradictory goals for Kyrie. She has a goal of getting the Sumaderas and destroying the Ushiromiyas, and at the same time wants to get the Ushiromiyas to unite in the name of family. I see a contradiction here in your theory.

Pretty much right in you're making things up. You have absolutely no evidence that Kyrie thinks anything about the Sumaderas other than hatred, and no evidence that there were actually good terms between them, while we have evidence that they did not have good terms due to disownment. It's already been addressed why they just disowned her (Ange implies that the Ushiromiyas bribed the Sumaderas to shut up) and while we can't disprove your theory with certainty, it's pretty illogical with everything we've seen.

These two goals can be reconciled only in some specific conditions: like the adults solving the epigraph and dividing it into 4 parts, or the cousins solved it and divide it among themselves. If the conditions never fulfilled, then Sumadera family took all gold. If the condition was fulfilled, then both families benefited.

Now you see that the goals were conflicting. You have never had multiple goals which might conflict with each other yourself, I suppose? What was the most commone theme of story involving undercover? The undercover had to fulfill his mission, while also breeding some attachment for the organization he had inflitrated into, thus he desire for the good being of the inflitrated organization as well. Conflicting emotions and goals, isn't it? Cliche, isn't it? But not incomprehensible, isn't it?

To bribe the Sumadera family needed huge amount of money, not the amount of money our four siblings could have given out. In fact, only Rudolf would be willing to give out. How much money does it take to bribe Sumadera family? It was a declining family and had been investing in Kyrie and looked upon her to revive the family. The money involved would be well over millions dollars. I doubt that Rudolf and Kyrie themselves could compensate the loss by just using their own money.

I thought this out when I pondered on why Beatrice seemed to focus so much on family values (in EP4) and the fact that Sumadera family benefited the most if everyone died except Ange.

I am more interested to know your theory than your comments on my theory, frankly.

I would try to posit another hypothesis and leave this hypothesis be. Let's term it as "Kyrie=Beatrice=Sumadera's undercover" hypothesis.

Next time, let me give out a hypothesis based on Shannon=Beatrice, as most people thought so.

These two goals can be reconciled only in some specific conditions: like the adults solving the epigraph and dividing it into 4 parts, or the cousins solved it and divide it among themselves. If the conditions never fulfilled, then Sumadera family took all gold. If the condition was fulfilled, then both families benefited.

Now you see that the goals were conflicting. You have never had multiple goals which might conflict with each other yourself, I suppose? What was the most commone theme of story involving undercover? The undercover had to fulfill his mission, while also breeding some attachment for the organization he had inflitrated into, thus he desire for the good being of the inflitrated organization as well. Conflicting emotions and goals, isn't it? Cliche, isn't it? But not incomprehensible, isn't it?

To bribe the Sumadera family needed huge amount of money, not the amount of money our four siblings could have given out. In fact, only Rudolf would be willing to give out. How much money does it take to bribe Sumadera family? It was a declining family and had been investing in Kyrie and looked upon her to revive the family. The money involved would be well over millions dollars. I doubt that Rudolf and Kyrie themselves could compensate the loss by just using their own money.

I thought this out when I pondered on why Beatrice seemed to focus so much on family values (in EP4) and the fact that Sumadera family benefited the most if everyone died except Ange.

You could not disprove my hypothesis, just like I could not prove that Kyire had just paid off the Sumadera family. You think it is illogical, then don't buy it. I don't mind. Give out one's explanation and stick to it is the best one could do.

I am more interested to know your theory than your comments on my theory, frankly.

I would try to posit another hypothesis and leave this hypothesis be. Let's term it as "Kyrie=Beatrice=Sumadera's undercover" hypothesis.

Next time, let me give out a hypothesis based on Shannon=Beatrice, as most people thought so.

------------------------------

By the way, what is a Erika-like theory?

...Just because it cannot be proven with certainty doesn't mean it should stay on the table. THAT is an Erika theory. She basically accused, hammered home, and "Proved" Natsuhi was the culprit even after Battler's red simply because there was no proof of her innocence.

THAT is an Erika theory. She basically accused, hammered home, and "Proved" Natsuhi was the culprit even after Battler's red simply because there was no proof of her innocence.

Spoiler for ep5:

Well, that's not entirely true. She "proved" Natsuhi was the culprit because, according to the red properly presented at the trial, there seemed to be no other possible way. If not for the loophole Battler found in the Ura tea, I'd like to hear you make a theory with someone other than Natsuhi as the culprit.

__________________

"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers

Well, that's not entirely true. She "proved" Natsuhi was the culprit because, according to the red properly presented at the trial, there seemed to be no other possible way. If not for the loophole Battler found in the Ura tea, I'd like to hear you make a theory with someone other than Natsuhi as the culprit.

Virgilia clearly stated in red that Natsuhi was not the culprit. Erika merely used red to say "no one but Natsuhi could kill everyone" but does that make it necessarily true, especially considering when we found out the 5 people had to have faked their deaths, because their bodies moved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijriims

You are right.

I am making up things. But somehow I got the feeling that Beatrice would not abandon her family no matter how it mistreated her from her dialogue with Battler in EP4.

If Kyrie was Beatrice, then she would not abandon her family no matter what. (as said by Kasumi in EP4, she commented that mere disownment as punishment was too lenient at all if Kyrie had a bastard child with Rudolf. She insisted that there must be some secret deals behind.)

My wild speculation was that disownment was only a facade, marrying Rudolf was part of the plan to get the gold.

I'm sorry, but this is completely disregarding characterization. You're making Kyrie out to be some greedy gold digger.

As for abanding families - Kyrie probably considers Rudolf, Battler and Ange her family now (as Natsuhi thinks of the Ushiromiyas as her family) so she would never throw them away.

Don't be so quick to judge that trial as rigged. There's only one rule added in addition to those from the normal games: "people who are not classified as witches are not allowed to use red without proof", and this rule was made perfectly clear. If Virgilia had said this in red before the entire court, it might have worked...but that didn't happen.

We know it was successful red because Battler was able to say it. However, it violated the stated rules of the trial. Think of it like evidence from an illegal wiretap. In certain cases, even perfectly sound evidence can be discounted if it is obtained by illegal or dubious means.

__________________

"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers

I'm sorry, but this is completely disregarding characterization. You're making Kyrie out to be some greedy gold digger.

As for abanding families - Kyrie probably considers Rudolf, Battler and Ange her family now (as Natsuhi thinks of the Ushiromiyas as her family) so she would never throw them away.

I am making Sumadera family as some greedy gold digger, not Kyrie. Kyrie was only working under Sumadera family's order.

One married person still have two families, right? The one who raised you up and the one you entered because of your spouse. I meant she chose Sumadera family over Ushiromiya family.

Again, this had no proof that Kyrie really adhered to Sumadera family. Only that it was a logical extension to the fact that Beatrice upheld family values (particularly the family you were raised in), and it kind of explained many motives of Beatrice and fit Lambda and Bern's comments on Beatrice. (Like "she did not pick the most straightforward method", "she wanted Battler to kill her and if Battler could not, she would kill him", "she was horribly pitiful before she was a witch" and "she did not mind losing or winning the game")

ijrims, in your hypothesis:
1) What reason do you have for naming Kyrie as your mastermind?
2) How long has this been planned out? If it's been for 18 years, why didn't the Sumaderas see to it that Asumu disappeared or suffered an "accident"?
3) If she knew that there was a substantial chance of her dying, and that the Sumaderas would get custody of Ange, why not openly mend fences with them?
4) Why commit murders imitating the epitaph? There's no evidence Kinzo ever intended it to be a ritual.
5) If the goal is to see whether family members can mend fences, why kill so many of them at the beginning?

Don't be so quick to judge that trial as rigged. There's only one rule added in addition to those from the normal games: "people who are not classified as witches are not allowed to use red without proof", and this rule was made perfectly clear. If Virgilia had said this in red before the entire court, it might have worked...but that didn't happen.

We know it was successful red because Battler was able to say it. However, it violated the stated rules of the trial. Think of it like evidence from an illegal wiretap. In certain cases, even perfectly sound evidence can be discounted if it is obtained by illegal or dubious means.

That trial is bullshit. Underdeveloped 15-year-old girls do not hang out on the sides of buildings in school swimsuits duct-taping windows shut, least of all during a hurricane.

Erika is obviously lying under oath throughout that entire trial, if you ask me.

The whole thing is a farce designed to get Natsuhi convicted. In fact, the entirety of Ep5 is a farce designed to blame Natsuhi, from what I've seen.

A somewhat logical disconnect...could the mastermind only be responsible for the First Twilight in every game? Everything that happens afterwards in done by various people, and then whatever happens at Midnight of October 5th/6th is either the handywork of the mastermind, or an absolute event that cannot be stopped...only avoided.

That would in some ways follow the Higurashi logic of the plot. Event X is done by the mastermind. All other events are caused by the main characters, than the "clean up" is caused again by the mastermind/natural disaster.

Also, if the First Twilight was caused by the mastermind (assuming the mastermind isn't instead responcible for Kinzo's death and nothing else), what is the objective? Ep3 has Eva survive. One assumes the objective of the mastermind failed or the mastermind was killed early in the game. The mastermind sets events in motion, lets them play out, and then kills everyone that's left at a certain time...making things appear like witches did it with magic. The problem is the letters in the bottles. What is the goal of the letters in a bottle? They spell out the mystery on some level that involves witches and magic, but also asks someone to find the truth of what happened...meaning to prove what really did happen. And it is signed by "Maria", not "Beatrice"...even though it is in "Beatrice's" handwritting. If the witch wanted to make people believe she existed...wouldn't she sign it "Beatrice the Golden" and gloat about what she did? That sounds more like Beatrice.

Also the finding of the gold doesn't seem to stop the First Twilight. If the mastermind is "Beatrice", whom wants the gold found, then there should have been no murders once the gold was found. Similar logic suggests that in Ep3, after Eva and Rosa find the gold, there should be no more murders, but "Beatrice" resigns her title and Eva-Beatrice starts murdering people. Logically, "Beatrice" will not kill anyone if the gold is found...and quite possibly never killed anyone willingly (self-defense perhaps). Thus someone else is behind the murders. Not "Beatrice"

That trial is bullshit. Underdeveloped 15-year-old girls do not hang out on the sides of buildings in school swimsuits duct-taping windows shut, least of all during a hurricane.

Erika is obviously lying under oath throughout that entire trial, if you ask me.

The whole thing is a farce designed to get Natsuhi convicted. In fact, the entirety of Ep5 is a farce designed to blame Natsuhi, from what I've seen.

If you look back in this thread and the EP5 thread, I've already created a theory which makes most if not all of Erika's actions possible, maybe even reasonable. It's possible that many of the things said in white during the trial are false (I think this is definitely the case), but it is possible to make a theory where they are true, I think. So it shouldn't be thrown out so lightly.

__________________

"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers

Well, that's not entirely true. She "proved" Natsuhi was the culprit because, according to the red properly presented at the trial, there seemed to be no other possible way. If not for the loophole Battler found in the Ura tea, I'd like to hear you make a theory with someone other than Natsuhi as the culprit.

In the case of Ep5 I can't literally believe anything that isn't red. Erika (at least the one in the metaworld) is lying and Battler's perspective in unreliable.

So my answer is simply that: the cousins didn't die in Battler's room

The scene where Battler wakes up and finds the corpses is fake, hell we even see Battler being pushed back by an invisible force in that scene. That's blatantly false.

Also Natsuhi later go check in the room and she finds nothing.

Either one of these scenes is fake because:

After George's death, his corpse was not moved at all!
After Jessica's death, her corpse was not moved at all!
After Maria's death, her corpse was not moved at all!

Also it was stated that

Ushiromiya Battler returned to the cousins' room at 3am and immediately went to bed. And until the incident was discovered, there was absolutely nothing suspicious in the room.

Did the "suspicious" thing materialized in the room the next morning? Either this red truth is badly worded, or in the room there was never anything suspicious to begin with.

Erika definitely saw the cousins in the room at the stroke of midnight, however from midnight to 1 AM she was in the Library with Nanjo, therefore the cousins had all the time to exit the guesthouse or moved to another room, no red forbids that.
Likewise, Rosa wasn't in the cousin's room, anyone could have killed her anytime. Likewise Genji was said to have gone to the waiting room and that he never left the mansion, however we have seen him going to the dining room, which means he's been in the waiting room only for a brief moment. There is no proof that he went back there after that or that he never left the waiting room itself.

The whole Ep5 is rigged.
I don't think it is possible to explain what happened without twisting red truths, using unrealistic theories or claiming some games scenes are totally fake. Of course I prefer to go with the latter.

It isn't her place to win the game. Its Battler's place. Her motives seem to be to get Battler to play the game seriously and correctly.

This is either because she wants Battler to win, or she's getting him ready to face Beatrice for real (or Lambda, who Bern would really like to see lose). Of course this would assume yet another troll out of Beatrice, which does not seem to be the case. Thus Bern is getting Battler set up to win and/or to take on Lambda in Meta, or the mastermind in the real world...since no matter who it is, it will shock him somewhat.

It isn't her place to win the game. Its Battler's place. Her motives seem to be to get Battler to play the game seriously and correctly.

This is either because she wants Battler to win, or she's getting him ready to face Beatrice for real (or Lambda, who Bern would really like to see lose). Of course this would assume yet another troll out of Beatrice, which does not seem to be the case. Thus Bern is getting Battler set up to win and/or to take on Lambda in Meta, or the mastermind in the real world...since no matter who it is, it will shock him somewhat.

It didn't seem like that when Bern was about ready to leave Battler impaled on Dlanor's red sword.

In the best case scenario where you are correct and she's trying to help Battler her methods are still evil. I love how she said that she would help Battler in episode 1's second tea party and then in episode 2 all she did was show up at the end all call him pathetic. Best team player ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The whole Ep5 is rigged.
I don't think it is possible to explain what happened without twisting red truths, using unrealistic theories or claiming some games scenes are totally fake. Of course I prefer to go with the latter.