If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: Classical music and diversity

I don't know much about the demographic makeup of Osterreich...there may or may not be a lot of Asians, etc. - but CERTAINLY that doesn't explain the dearth of women you've noticed in their orchestra.

I usually like to call it Osterreich, because in English we have the rather strange situation where too many people mix up Austria and Australia!! I'm not aware of an alternate name for Australia. OK..."Oz" I guess...

A personal thrill early in the year (and I can't call it "THIS YEAR" anymore) was seeing a Beethoven performance in Detroit by the Youth Civic Orchestra (high school students, huge orchestra) under the tutorage of the Detroit symphony Orchestra. And yes, as expected, the group was quite varied. I'm guessing the talent comes from Detroit AND the various regional cities and suburbs as well.

BOSS: I'm sorry, but I'll have to lay you and Jack off.
SUE: Can you just jack off? I feel like shit today.

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

If Mary gave birth to Jesus, and Jesus is the Lamb of God, did Mary have a little lamb?

Re: Classical music and diversity

The gender homogeneity of the Vienna Philharmonic is well known. The first woman was admitted only 15 years ago or so. As a matter of fact, even in the US, women were enrolled by major orchestras in large numbers only with the wide-spread use of blind auditions in which the applicant performs behind a screen.

Austria is not overly diverse racially, as you note, but even the blind audition does not help with ethnic diversity. I remember hearing a report from about 20 years ago, perhaps apochraphal, that when the best audition came from a man of Japanese descent, the Philharmonic refused to hire him. Oddly, both the orchestra and the Vienna State Opera are both enormously popular in Asia, and often go there on tours.

Re: Classical music and diversity

Vienna is often seen as a historical crossroads. The diversity embodied there might well be profound, just not apparent if we are expecting visible diversity. However Austrian society also struck me as very formal and also very conservative. It is a very Catholic society as well. Perhaps women just aren't cut out for jobs as priests or violinists.

Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

Re: Classical music and diversity

First of all the language of Austria is German so they do not call it Vienna we do. I have watched this every Jan 1st since I was very young. The announcer as they do every year mentioned that it is this orchestra not Austria that is like an old boys club. Up to 2 years or so ago there were no women now there are 9. When I originally watched this until he died the greatWalter Conkite was the announcer each year. My biggest concern is that you had no clue they speak German that is there native language. Unlike America almost everyone speaks more than one language, so if you visit this great city you will love it and have no problem getting around.

Re: Classical music and diversity

By the way as far as LGBT rights go there are some problems but unlike the U.S. from 2010 every one who wanted could have a Civil Partnership and sex between consenting adults I perfectly legal. When we went there we shared a king size bed in the hotel. In some places in the U.S. the desk clerk has tried to get us in two beds what a surprise.

Re: Classical music and diversity

What Austrian cultural value discourages them from success as classical musicians. Is there some sort of Mozart's Sister repression that is enduring?

It strikes me that a society complacent toward sexism in one field will be indifferent to it in another as well.

Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by Dejavudoo

Do other European orchestras have similar bias (French, Swedish, Italian, German, British, etc.)?

I have seen concerts from several top European orchestras in the past couple of seasons, Orchestre National de Paris, Leipzig Gewandhaus, Berlin Philharmonic, Dresden Staatskapelle, London Symphony, Mariinsky, and Concertgebouw, and none of them have an obviously male gender bias as the Vienna Philharmonic.

Of course, they have a unique organisation anyway.... The members of the orchestra make all of the booking of conductors and soloists, they make the decision about who to hire as colleagues, and the Philharmonic itself owns all of the instruments and lends them to the musicians rather then the musicians selecting and owning their individual equipment.

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by Dejavudoo

Women are equally good musicians.

But are they? All the great classical composers were men. In fact, I can't even think of a mediocre female composer. Who's to say that their inadequacy in the composition department doesn't for some reason extend to performance?

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by unloadonme

... I can't even think of a mediocre female composer...

I could mention Fanny Mendelsohhn and Clara Schuman as being unremarkable if not mediocre.

There's Hildegarde of Bingen but I reckon her stuff would be equally unremarkable if it wasn't for this damned over-enhanced Dolby recordings we're getting now where the singers breath exhalations are as loud as their sung notes.

I should make an effort to listen to Elisabeth Lutyens seeing as how I'm a fan of Sir Edwin.

I have heard bits of Ethel Smythe's The Wreckers which is OK (she's a wonderful source of comedy in the Virginia Woolf letters) .

Re: Classical music and diversity

First off, the title is so wrong: the thread is not about Alberti bass or counterpoint, it simple deals with some expendable musical institution.

Then, at the risk of simply appearing to throw one of those belamian quips, it seems that Vudoo just faced the uncontrovertible fact that the Austrian are nazis, and that their opposition to the German Anschluss is alike to that of antipapism in the US: they do not actually oppose and resist imposition and oppression per se as much as being denied the right to exert that imposition and oppression themselves.

The Austrian, or rather the Wiener, if you want to allow for a certain degree of decency generally outside the capital city, simply want to preserve a certain homogeneity, some self-perceived and purported traditional essence that they want to maintain pure by mere exclusion and isolation.Total passive-aggressive, no need to attack and eliminate beyond simply snubbing the impure barbarians. They are the European Japanese. No kidding.

Last edited by belamo; January 4th, 2014 at 02:09 AM.
Reason: Paragraph division

Re: Classical music and diversity

Now again back to the topic or, rather, the topic cloud of this thread, Vudoo is pointing at a particular case of what is general in all times and societies: even if not written down, there are habits, rules and dogmas that are maintained following a general set of prejudices and mental pampering: never occurred to you how come you never find, in old movies, a handsome and talented dancer like Eleanor Powell or Rita Hayworth, like the only great dancer available was an alien-headed closeted gay guy on whom to pin up the former sort of dancer... or why men generally disappear under the clothing when they go to a red carpet event or just any event and when they are featured in a film, or either they pass from appearingly unassumingly badly-dressed to directly expose their tits and/or asscheeks?

Even in our more open and accepting era, all the assertions and habits of our societies are build on strong, ruthless exclusions, and the stronger the less obvious and more simply deriding than aggressive they are.

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by pat grimshaw

An orchestra should play as one team.

I don't get this current fad for 'diversity'.

Divided societies are unstable.

You never watched the Sesame Street feature on the difference between "diversity" and "division": now totally seriously, pat, your persona is the perfect example of those who are the agents of their own destruction, while fearing it coming from the outside... the mentality of your persona is the humus that is favouring all the disasters to come, old, everlasting clueless reactionism posing as sensible conservatism.

Re: Classical music and diversity

But are they? All the great classical composers were men. In fact, I can't even think of a mediocre female composer.

Originally Posted by Dejavudoo

I would say the lack of acceptance of women composers is an equally valid question.

You made quite a leap from my suggestion that there are no great female classical composers to an implication that they exist but are unknown because of a lack of acceptance. Trying to tell us on that basis that there are great female composers out there somewhere is little better evidentially than saying that God exists!

Re: Classical music and diversity

I forgot to comment (there is always soooo much to comment on) that the fact that the Wiener may be very popular among certain Japanese, doesn't mean that the Japanese are not just as excluding as the other side is, and that they are just, very aloofly and civilizedly (and also very quaintly) interested in the product that lies in the middle, not in the people and the culture itself. The Philarmoniker is for them just part of their Westernalism.

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by Dejavudoo

In English, there are sentences that begin with the understood "you" as the subject. It should not therefore shock you that the implied topic might be classical music and orchestral diversity. To imply that it should refer to musical diversity is disingenuous. Same old you.

Same old you, you didn't care to read what I wrote and just patched your ready-made labels as soon as you read [same old]<that (was the implied part) belamo: it's not just that people would sloppily call "classical music" anything played by an orchestra with members dressed for a gala night, it's that they do not even care to pay attention to the music itself, which is what you did in the title, the OP and that message, and all of which was my point... which you didn't seem to get or want to get...
So the reference to music diversity, which even beyond this thread can not fathom what actually refers to, and that reference to the English language and a particular employ of "you" seems totally out of place. But, hey, it's all simply old same us.

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by Dejavudoo

True. True. True. Ask the Koreans.

You mean those people who were invaded 160 times along their history, without ever stricking back themselves... what for asking them? and all of them or just one side of the population North or South of 38ş0 N?

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by Dejavudoo

Your schtick is too obvious. You parse out any possible misinterpretation of anyone's post and enjoy suggesting the miscommunication was actual instead of implied. Anyone who follows you into your rabbit hole and engages on grammar or meaning is playing into your hand. There is real difference between miscommunicating and having the obvious meaning distorted for the point of erudite malevolence.

As to the Koreans, it is obvious to all that the Koreans are sorely abused at the hands of the Japanese and they are the chief objects of their racist views.

It is all too obvious that you do not like me for any reason than you never care to make explicit, and then keep on saying that it is all my tricky fault.
Again, I started my first post in this thread by pointing out that the title makes reference to "classical music", which I found rather confusing after pairing it along with "diversity", and then realized that this was not about music, but about musical ensembles and how people look and, by implication, what makes them look so.
Then you ignored that as well as what came next, which entered into the topic you seem to want to discuss... with anyone but with me, because while I keep making explicit references to all that is written here, implied and obvious, you stick to your schtick act of playing the revolted one against your fantasy wicked me.

As for the Koreans, there even less I do not know if we are talking about something actual anymore...

Last edited by opinterph; January 19th, 2014 at 09:51 AM.
Reason: late edit to quoted text

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by Dejavudoo

Edited too late.

Read too late.

I referred to the similarity between the Austrian and the Japanese mind, then you ignore that and put the Korean in the way and still have the nerve that it is me who confuses everything to laugh at people or something...

Wiki says Alberti bass is a particular kind of accompaniment figure in music….usually found in the left hand of pieces ….
….a kind of broken chord or arpeggiated accompaniment, where the notes of the chord are presented in the order lowest, highest, middle, highest......Well-known examples of Alberti bass include these...

I don't understand what arpeggiated means but this person says it's 'cheesy'

Female violinists should also cover their arms. "You don't want to see too much flapping about," he said. "Then there's the problem of women in trousers. If you're slightly heavy in the rear end department, it does not look too good"

Re: Classical music and diversity

As long as it is generally believed that there are talents from Mars and talents from Venus, and even talents from certain countries which are denied by nature to other nations, it is not just that history would be written or rewritten this or that way, but history will be shaped in a very definite way to be written afterwards accordingly.

Re: Classical music and diversity

Considering JUB's typical reaction to anti-LGBT discrimination, it is absolutely incredibly how many glib and smartass answers Deja received to a question of why women are so dramatically underrepresented in classical music.

Re: Classical music and diversity

Originally Posted by BENDERBOY

Didn't the Nazi Party throw all the ethnics into ovens though ?

There are 8000 Jews in Austria, down from 200,000 in 1938. A lot of Jewish musicians were gassed or forced to emigrate. I don't know what the statistic is on racial diversity, but it could be a similar decimation. As for women, it could very well be that Austria is sexist. However, on a historical note, the discoverer of nuclear fission was Austrian professor Lise Meitner (also Jewish). Society was sexist then so she never got the Nobel Prize; instead it went to her male colleague whom did not actually make the discovery himself.