The kimono of judo makes it a sensational sport, but try judo with the same rules without the kimono - as in wrestling - and not allow touching the knee on the floor - it gets twice as dynamic and three times as hard - and fewer injuries

well, we used to work out minus our gi jackets every week or so. we never limited our techniques, though. you'd be surprised at how much technical slack the gi affords. your kuzushi has to be a lot more precise. at any rate, that was exactly the reason we didn't limit our techniques... we were attempting to improve our techniques. we did, however limit our techniques in other drills, such as randori only, foot throws only, or pick a technique for execution, and use ONLY that one to throw, though you could use any other technique to set. anypoo, if you can find a partner willing to go no jacket, definately do. but consider wearing a tee-shirt if you'll be sliding around on the mat. some mats can get sticky.tony

yeah, judo is meant to be able to be done without gi's for certain situations; e.g. real life fight. It definately takes away a lot of throws. I would think ippon/drop seonagi working well no-gi; all you need is to grab an arm. Uchi-mata would probably be good as well, especially if you get a head-lock. But back to your topic "no [gi], no touching the knee on the floor..." isn't that just wrestling??? I like to think judo has something to teach that western wrestling doesn't; namely, a more complete, efficient use of the body in a combative situation. Wrestling stresses maximum muscle power and speed, that's why they get so low, but ever tried muscling a black belt to the ground? they hardly budge.

You cannot compare effectiveness of judo with wrestling, on equal other terms, I have seen and tried such magic,

a judoka rarely stands a chance, even vs a greco-roman wrestler, who is far more limited, let alone the freestyle monsters,

but that is not the point,

wrestling is simply dull, and all that lifting of the opponent takes away your brains down to zero - being strong but stupid is not worth it,

judo is an intelligent sport and

the alternative form I support is not wrestling, there is no wrestling on the ground, a touch of the body on the floor brings rivals back to standing position, however a low position of the body is indeed maintained for stability,

arm-throws are hard to execute, locks are harder to execute, no chokes,

You cannot compare effectiveness of judo with wrestling, on equal other terms, I have seen and tried such magic, again, this belongs to one of the fighter vs fighter vs style vs style threads. my first encounter with no-gi-judo(ngj, from here on out), was because of a wrestler who joined my club. he was almost a friend to me (his ego was too big), and he actually joined my class because i won a bet that he couldn't hold me in a cradle, and he was impressed. at any rate, my uncle taught out of my highschool's mini gym, and sometimes the wrestlers were around. this guy was one of the best wrestlers on the team, and he was quite embarrassed about getting thrown around by me, so he started speculating that if we weren't wearing gis, he'd have the upper hand. judo mike (my favorite mentor of all time), said that was how he learned his best judo, so off with the gis. i mopped up the mat with him again, although, he did get more aggressive. on the other hand, he was also able to AT LEAST hold his own in our randori with everybody else in the dojo that couldn't stomp me (like judo mike), and without gis, he certainly DID have the upper hand with all the other guys. of course, so did i. like i said, fighter vs fighter, not style vs style.

wrestling is simply dull, and all that lifting of the opponent takes away your brains down to zero - being strong but stupid is not worth it, actually, i like to watch wrestling, because there are some things that wrestlers do very well, such as ankle picks, that i don't often see on the mat, yet are very valuable. i'm always looking for clean techniques. of course, a karteka will probably say that judo is dull, too. i'm sure that if we have any wrestlers here, they'll be offended that your statement implies they're stupid. i don't know a ton of wrestlers, but of the few i know, one is pretty smart and the rest are average or so.

arm-throws are hard to execute, locks are harder to execute, no chokes i wouldn't say arm throws are too much harder to execute without a gi than with, locks are every bit as simple for me, but i don't use the gi too much in my armlocks, and there are still a couple of hadaka jimes (naked strangles) available. like from the rear, single wing, guillotine, and the more difficult to secure pineapple (i only learned this one recently. evidently is is wally jay's. the outside of your right wrist against his right neck just below the ear. your left arm in between your right arm and his chest, left thumb behind his left ear. left fingers against right fingers palm together. squeeze. might be easier to see if you get an uki).i don't want you to think i'm bashing you, but i AM trying to say that i think, while it is a fantastic drill, it is no better than any other drill we might work on, and certainly no substitute for randori or shei.tony

It is indeed fighter vs fighter, i add - of the same weight, not style vs style though style does matter,

I wonder how you were able to throw around that wrestler without the gi, you did not mention if he was freestyle or greco-roman, 'cause difference is huge, a good judoka could defeat a not very tough greco-roman, esp. with the gi,

You are quite experienced in judo, obviously, but i start to doubt the quality of wrestling around your place, 'cause around mine quality of judo is not too high, but quality of wrestling both styles is world class, kids are drilled from a very young age through very very tough regime, not much time left for studying you see, that is why i mentioned "dull", a bit of chemistry involved,

so that is probably why our views differ so much,

anyway, glad to read that you had non-gi judo experience,

I am very much pleased with the alt. judo I am trying to make others keen on, I do not claim it be more efficient than judo, on the contrary, 'cause too much is banned, but i feel it a bit tenser, kind of streamlined, and more injury-free,

i like that you have a pro-active approach, judo coaches around here are pretty much conservative, only lately have the better clubs only started copying things from wrestling, not vice versa however,

see what comes out,

open to ideas on non-gi judo on throws, tactics, etc. from anybody with such experience

well, i don't know what to say when you ask how i managed to throw him around. my reactions were faster, my techniques less defendable. granted, we were in JUDO class, but there isn't a single standing wrestling technique i can think of that he couldn't have used. maybe it had a lot to do with the fact that i got a lot of my butt handed to me by an olympic alternate. anywho, try working out with those wrestlers sometime, they are pretty good at finding a couple of weak spots in your game!!tony