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If the major disagreements in this thread were really just about people explaining why they "don't like" how things went, things would never be so heated. The problem isn't because people don't like it. It's because, in trying to justify why they don't like it, some people choose to make rash unsubstantiated claims about the supposed "objective faults" in the work. In the end it almost always really comes back to "well, I didn't like it (and I think I have good reasons)". But not liking it is a preference and not a fact; it's the unique combination of the viewer and the object being viewed.

There are some objective things we can say about the way the plot was written, but a lot of it really does come down to subjective preference -- things we wanted to see, the way things were presented, and the consequences of the choices the author and adaptation made, and how that impacted our reaction. As I've said so many times over the years, it's all about the way the opinion is stated.

Why not take it one step further and say "you can't give an objective review on an entertainment". Which is true in a sense, and this gives a new viewpoint: nothing is truly objective and thus no matter how pompously worded a review is, it's still a subjective review. Thus, treat it as such. There's no need to accuse the critic for not being objective. There's no need to say "I don't understand why that critic thinks this way" etc and point out the 'flaws' in their criticism. There's no need to criticize the critics. It goes both ways. Sure, give warnings when attitude becomes too inflammatory, but that's it.

Why not take it one step further and say "you can't give an objective review on an entertainment". Which is true in a sense, and this gives a new viewpoint: nothing is truly objective and thus no matter how pompously worded a review is, it's still a subjective review. Thus, treat it as such. There's no need to accuse the critic for not being objective. There's no need to say "I don't understand why that critic thinks this way" etc and point out the 'flaws' in their criticism. There's no need to criticize the critics. It goes both ways. Sure, give warnings when attitude becomes too inflammatory, but that's it.

Even professional reviews aren't trying to be objective. They're trying to give a subjective opinion from the perspective of one who has more experience (both in taking in the content and in writing about it). If they make objective-sounding claims, you might consider their view to have a little more weight because of their depth of experience. But that doesn't meant you're supposed to agree with them, just to understand where they're coming from (particularly by getting to know their perspective over time). Even professional critics, by virtue of being "forced" to watch so much, take on a certain point of view that isn't always in alignment with the general public, and certainly won't necessarily be in alignment with one individual person. Critics also certainly aren't in alignment with each other all the time either.

But that aside, forums aren't here for people to just post their "reviews" of anime. Forums are for people to have a conversation. People are obviously allowed to have an opinion, but that doesn't mean that their opinion won't or shouldn't be criticised, particularly if they make claims that are unsubstantiated or impossible to substantiate. Insinuating that people should be able to say whatever they please and that it should all be dismissed as "well that's your opinion" and never criticised is rather ludicrous. If people can criticise anime, they should certainly expect to themselves be criticised. How is the critic, if they see themselves as such, going to learn to sharpen their skills if they are never given any feedback? And if people aren't interested in feedback, why the hell are they on a Forum like this in the first place?

Personally, I would prefer if anime discussion threads were more about having conversations as equals and getting to understand our differing points of view. I don't like this pattern of "person posts review, others react to review" because the reviewer often seems to be trying to make themselves the topic and not actually participating in the whole conversation (except to defend themselves) -- they're more interested in what they have to say than in what anyone else thinks. Of course that's not everyone, and there are a lot good people with all sorts of opinions on all sides that participate in this Forum every day. I think it really comes down to "trying to get along"; you can be friends with people you disagree with strongly -- and even have passionate debates about your disagreements -- as long as you're being civil and are genuinely interested in the other person's point of view (even if you disagree with it). But sometimes it seems the conversation has to start with peeling back the layers of presumption (on both sides) so that it's more clear where the difference in opinion really lies. Sometimes that's the only way to lead to a mutual understanding (and in my view, that's always the goal).

(Edit: And regarding the "give warnings when attitude becomes too inflammatory" bit, this seems like a totally separate conversation -- of course that's why we have moderators. But I hope it's clear that my opinions about the show (and in this post) are mine as a person completely aside from this other task. As should be obvious from the sorts of posts in this thread, the only time when any posts get moderated are when they break the rules and/or are too clearly inflammatory (which didn't generally happen even here).)

People are obviously allowed to have an opinion, but that doesn't mean that their opinion won't or shouldn't be criticised, particularly if they make claims that are unsubstantiated or impossible to substantiate. Insinuating that people should be able to say whatever they please and that it should all be dismissed as "well that's your opinion" and never criticised is rather ludicrous. If people can criticise anime, they should certainly expect to themselves be criticised. How is the critic, if they see themselves as such, going to learn to sharpen their skills if they are never given any feedback? And if people aren't interested in feedback, why the hell are they on a Forum like this in the first place?

I hate chili and horror movies with a passion. Should I let people who like chili and horror movies criticize me for it?

But no, not "whatever they please", of course mannerism applies (the last bit of my previous post was regarding this). But, you can see that "reviewing" a reviewer means "reviewing" an opinion, a person, and not the object the reviewer reviews (I'll refrain from using the word critic cause it seems it's too much of a loaded word). And if we look back the previous threads, how successful had this been in bringing out a "good" conversation?

What I'm disturbed about is when someone post a 'negative' review, the first thing most people do is downplay, disprove, or deny the content of the review or even the reviewer himself (or "pouring in a whole jar of salt when someone complains the soup's not salty enough"), instead of asking "why do you think that?". Or being generally sarcastic about it instead of engaging in a direct conversation. Asking "why" is the first step in the attempt to understand the other party. Though I admit, the reviewer's attitude sometimes presents difficulties, and occasionally when it is asked, some answer more unsatisfactorily than others. And even then, when a rather satisfactory answer is given, sometimes it's still downplayed with "I pity you who don't get it". Which brings to your next quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Personally, I would prefer if anime discussion threads were more about having conversations as equals and getting to understand our differing points of view. I don't like this pattern of "person posts review, others react to review" because the reviewer often seems to be trying to make themselves the topic and not actually participating in the whole conversation (except to defend themselves) -- they're more interested in what they have to say than in what anyone else thinks.

Why do you think so, and what's wrong with that really? A lot of people have dropped in, praise the show, then disappear without a care what others think yet nobody ever reacts to them, not even the "haters". If those who gives negative reviews appears to be trying to make themselves the topic, keep in mind that maybe it's because there are people feeding into it and not the other way around. My point is those who react aren't really exempt from the 'blame', which I'm sure you know as well, but isn't too clear from your post that seems to emphasize it on just one side. And indeed, it seems a lot of people have concluded the "winning" move here is to refrain from posting as much as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But sometimes it seems the conversation has to start with peeling back the layers of presumption (on both sides) so that it's more clear where the difference in opinion really lies. Sometimes that's the only way to lead to a mutual understanding (and in my view, that's always the goal).

The thing with why is why Suguha? Why the importance on what Suguha felt? Why did Reki designed this arc so that we had known immediately that Suguha = Lyfa (I like Lyfa better than Leefa or Leafa IMO)?

The thing is (according to the Scilica side-story) that Kirito's reason (this is but a logical conclusion I brought up, mind you) for even being addicted to MMOs in the first place was because the fact that he was just adopted and her sister was actually her cousin and he wanted to forget that.

That's right. Like many of us, MMOs are escapism for the realities of life. Maybe Kirito didn't want to think of anything else for Suguha other than being her sister, that's why he got himself into games. But when the SAO Incident came along, he soon realized how he longed for her sister and the thing he lost of all -- that precious moments he could have apologizing to her for practically turning a cold shoulder on her just because of some "petty" circumstance (w/c is not petty IMO -- is Death petty?). That's why, when he had returned, he "suddenly" became closer to her as a sister. Suddenly, he found himself trying to get over the time he had lost because of that single dumb reasoning, yet he couldn't regret it either because of Asuna.

Then there's her sister, who fell into the same trap Kirito got into. She used ALO as an excuse to escape from the reality (at the time) that Kirito was trapped in a world she didn't knew. One by one, those escape mechanisms warped into something she had come to realize as "desire to fly" and "love" for him, especially after she realized that Kirito was actually her cousin, and not her sister.

I personally think that, while flawed and bent because the anime company was not competent enough to bring direction to flavor, the theme of the entire ALO Arc is on escapism -- from escapism from reality to escapism TO reality. I mean, c'mon, cool swords, elves, and all that -- escapism into the VR was certainly possible. But what could be the repercussions? What could go wrong? How would you change because of it? And lastly, how can you fix that you broke because you weren't there?

Certainly Kirito was right: You can steal, kill, love and basically do anything in a world that doesn't seem so real, but won't YOU as person change because of it? Will escaping really do anything for you? Will bringing up delusions for yourself make you a better person than you really are? (That one's for Sugou, btw)

To carry on from that, Kirito kinda fears Becoming the Mask. And to an extent, a worry that if he acted like members of Laughing Coffin, he'd become them.

On reflection, after rewatching this episode and the last several ALO episodes, I notice something which didn't initially appear to me when I read the LNs (then again I was kinda focusing on the quest to rescue Asuna ); there's a central question being asked throughout this arc: "What is strength?"

I leave it to all to ponder their own answer to this question. It'd be interesting, I think, to rewatch the last few episodes in that light, with that question in mind.

__________________

~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

If the major disagreements in this thread were really just about people explaining why they "don't like" how things went, things would never be so heated. The problem isn't because people don't like it. It's because, in trying to justify why they don't like it, some people choose to make rash unsubstantiated claims about the supposed "objective faults" in the work. In the end it almost always really comes back to "well, I didn't like it (and I think I have good reasons)". But not liking it is a preference and not a fact; it's the unique combination of the viewer and the object being viewed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I feel it even more obnoxious to have people saying a perspective is based on misunderstanding (thus, inherently wrong, factual sense) while there are basis of certain points given. You know, there are plot elements and structure that may not to be people liking, whether or not it is flawed or not.

So far, if you don't have any problem in how Suguha was introduced as a character and a role of this kind, go ahead. I particularly don't like how the purpose of her role went so far, and it really has nothing to do with "misunderstanding" the plot.

Just to make a general point here...

It's silly for people to talk about things as if their opinions are objective, but there are objective elements in the story people can talk about.

For example, the fact that Suguha is not Kirito's sister and that we got insight into the situation in like episode 4 or so is an objective fact about the story. If someone asserts that no such thing is ever discussed or alluded to in the show, such a claim is inherently wrong. On the other hand if someone says that they dislike the fact they introduced Suguha's character into the story because they think it distracts the plot from such and such, then that is more subjective.

People will rightfully try to debate such points and there is nothing wrong with it. There isn't truly a right answer, but I think the idea that since everything is just an opinion that everyone's opinion is equally valid is quite silly and a bit asinine to assert. Opinions are backed up by a person's own logic and reason, and if that logic and reason isn't convincing I do not think it is a very strong opinion. Professional critics get to the position they are in because their opinions are highly regarded for their ability to articulate and reason why they may or may not like a work in convincing fashion. Some people in this thread have done a better job of this than others in the thread of course.

That said, the arguments for why Suguha's character could be removed from the story with negligible effect are flimsy at best to me. It is just not very convincing to me to assert such when she is the main heroine of ALO in many ways and the author wrote the story in a way that spent a lot of time developing her character. Granted people don't have to like her character or this story, but what a lot of people have asked for here is for the author to write a completely different story than is being told. Whether or not that would be a good thing I cannot say, but again, I cannot accept the idea that ALO would be relatively the same without Suguha's character.

I'm not going to keep this tangent going beyond this (since it has gone off-topic, no thanks to me), but to address the direct issues:

Quote:

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I hate chili and horror movies with a passion. Should I let people who like chili and horror movies criticize me for it?

That depends on how you state your opinion, does it not? This whole thing is not about having an opinion, it's about how you state it, and that's what gets the criticism. No one has ever claimed that someone has to like something they don't like (because who can change that anyway?).

What I'd like to know is why Kirito never bothered to buy another weapon after the Eugene duel, when it was pretty clear he could've used it in this episode. I literally /facepalmed when he parried that uber mob's sword with his left arm.... seriously Kirito, what were you thinking??

Granted, he did use unarmed attacks but... I can't help but think that using another weapon would've been better no matter what.

He didn't buy one because he was flat broke, remember? He gave up pretty much his entire fortune to finance the alliance, and mentioned being broke after arriving at the base of Yggdrasil.

Lyfa is still there and I doubt she'd turn down his request to buy another weapon, especially now that she knows he can dual wield. Either way, I think Kirito had a brainfart - you'd think he would take any advantage, no matter how small, going up against something that Lyfa said "has stopped raid groups."

If nothing else, Yui's proclamation about Asuna's player ID being nearby most likely set off Kirito's "berserk switch" so these things most likely slipped his mind.

Kirito seems like he doesn't really spend too much time thinking ahead... I wouldn't be surprised if he ever had any plan at all upon coming to the world tree, and was probably afraid of the most realistic answer, that the blurry photo was in fact, just a blurry photo and the idea of rescuing Asuna was just a false hope.

Of course, once Yui confirmed it was true, all bets are out. But even then, he hasn't taken time to think this through, or what it really even means.

Lyfa is still there and I doubt she'd turn down his request to buy another weapon, especially now that she knows he can dual wield. Either way, I think Kirito had a brainfart - you'd think he would take any advantage, no matter how small, going up against something that Lyfa said "has stopped raid groups."

If nothing else, Yui's proclamation about Asuna's player ID being nearby most likely set off Kirito's "berserk switch" so these things most likely slipped his mind.

We don't know if Suguha could afford another weapon either. She did ask about an affordable inn, after all, which implies she might be hurting for cash too.

Kirito seems like he doesn't really spend too much time thinking ahead... I wouldn't be surprised if he ever had any plan at all upon coming to the world tree, and was probably afraid of the most realistic answer, that the blurry photo was in fact, just a blurry photo and the idea of rescuing Asuna was just a false hope.

Of course, once Yui confirmed it was true, all bets are out. But even then, he hasn't taken time to think this through, or what it really even means.

I'm fairly certain that he was taking a long shot because ALO was made by Recto, which is owned by Sugou, who makes it plainly obvious that he managed to scheme *something* to do with Asuna. And with Sugou basically forcing a one week deadline on the whole deal, Kirito decided to go all in on the only lead he had.

Oh, I know. It's certainly better than nothing. I was just wondering if maybe the reason he seemed so carefree in the earlier episodes, is because he was afraid that when he reached the world tree he would find nothing.

Oh, I know. It's certainly better than nothing. I was just wondering if maybe the reason he seemed so carefree in the earlier episodes, is because he was afraid that when he reached the world tree he would find nothing.

I think you can probably *at least* put it in the reverse. If he knew for a fact that Asuna was definitely there and needed to be "rescued", I think he would have been even more stressed about it. It's certainly true that his lead was a "long shot" at best, but as was said, it's not like he had any other leads worth pursuing.

(To be honest, one of the reasons it's such a long shot is because, if she really was being held "hostage", why would you set her out in the open like that? Why not keep her locked away like the other 299 prisoners? It's only because of Sugou's particular oddities about maintaining this King/Queen fantasy that this whole thing transpired. It was also of course completely possible that Sugou made an NPC to look like Asuna or all sorts of other things.)

Oh, I know. It's certainly better than nothing. I was just wondering if maybe the reason he seemed so carefree in the earlier episodes, is because he was afraid that when he reached the world tree he would find nothing.

I thought Kirito seeming so carefree was because he's fairly confident of this lead. As in, he had probably checked and re-checked this and other leads off-screen and concluded that this is the best one he got. However, that doesn't stop him from being more emotional when Yui actually confirmed it (that 'berserk switch' styr mentioned).

Oh, I know. It's certainly better than nothing. I was just wondering if maybe the reason he seemed so carefree in the earlier episodes, is because he was afraid that when he reached the world tree he would find nothing.

The facts:

1. Kirito knew that it's Asuna the fact that the girl in the picture looks like her.

2. The picture was thanken in the World Tree and that would also be the first place to look for.

3. Just imagine Kirito being depress from the time he enters ALO until now... I expect a lot of hate post surely. Why is he carefree any?

The facts:

1. ALO and SAO are quite similar without but without the "death consequence".

2. It's game and he's a gamer and it's his first time to fly.

3. Asuna is in the game and he has the chance to save her.

4. Yui, their "daughter is with him to cheer him all the way! Add Leafy and a party mate on his quest.