I'm asking you for a credible source to back your claim that more meals results in better body composition then fewer meals. Not some BS website, I'm talking a study.

I understood perfectly what you said.
If you didn't understand my simple yet witty, if I may say so myself, retort, I don't want to continue a conversation with you. Minimum reading comprehension is a hard requirement.

This is wrong information.
When you eat big gulps at a time, at irregular intervals, your body tries to store as much energy as it can (in the form of fat) because it doesn't know when the next meal will come. That's a neat evolution feature that is an advantage in the wild, but unfortunately, not desirable in contemporary urban lifestyle.
Many animals display this feature. For example, whales, bears, penguins, seals, etc. They spend the summer feeding and gorging themselves. They can increase their body weight by 2 or 3 times. All stored as fat. Then they eat almost nothing for long periods (either hibernation or food source dries out). Their bodies survive the winter on stored fat and they come out next spring and start a new cycle.
We humans solved the food source issue. The refrigerator eliminated "winter" and practically makes food available all year. The car eliminated the very basic of exercise (walking), and what we see today is the 2 to 3 times natural body weight all year long.

This is what I was taught my entire life, but it is simply no longer supported by scientific research (done on human metabolisms, humans do not hibernate), and is perpetuated simply by the fact that it has been "common knowledge" for so long, and perhaps a reluctance by many to continue to ingest (pun intended) the development of a topic once their opinion upon which has been formed.

" De Castro (2004) found those that skip breakfast are more likely to overeat later. 1 Additionally, Schlundt et al (1992) and Stubbs et al (1996) found those that eat breakfast eat less fat throughout the day and are less prone to impulsive eating of familiar foods. 23 However, multiple studies have found that feeding frequency and timing does not have an effect on metabolic performance (Wilhelmine et al 1998) (Dallosso et al 1982) ( Verboeket van de Venne and Westerterp 1998) (Wolfram et al 1987). 4 5 6 7

In addition, Goldberg et al (1998) found that one’s metabolic rate while sleeping is roughly concurrent with one’s basal metabolic rate (BMR), which in combination with results from the previously mentioned studies suggests that there are no adverse metabolic effects from eating before sleeping.8 However, it is important if you are partaking in late night eating that you eat a prepared portion of food, as it’s been demonstrated that it’s common for individuals to overindulge late (Waller et al 2004). 9"

I'm asking you for a credible source to back your claim that more meals results in better body composition then fewer meals. Not some BS website, I'm talking a study.

I understood perfectly what you said.
If you didn't understand my simple yet witty, if I may say so myself, retort, I don't want to continue a conversation with you. Minimum reading comprehension is a hard requirement.

[quote=MPBK;10398346]You can target exercises and develop the muscles in one part of your body, but you can't target fat burning on one particular part.
For example, if you did a thousand situps a day, you still wouldn't show a six-pack while your upper body and legs are full of fat.
If you did the thousand situps a day, you'd have a nice six-pack, for sure, but it wouldn't show because there would be a layer of fat covering it.
Men, particularly older men, have a propensity to store fat in the belly region. So, by the time a 40-year old male can display a nice six-pack, his entire body is pretty much lean mass. If he never did any upper body exercise, his upper body would look ugly as hell without any fat, but he'd have a six-pack to die for. [/QUOTE

Have you ever ran in your life, maybe your upperbody looked like crap because you didnt use your arms to run.

You might want to brush up on your rudimentary statistical comprehension, as you are committing a classic correlation/causation mistake here. A healthier body composition is often positively correlated with eating smaller, more frequent meals, but eating smaller, more frequent meals does not cause a healthier body composition.

As I said in my first post which you contended was misinformation, eating small & frequent meals can improve ones appetite management and overall eating habits. Small/frequent meals are often conscious, premeditated decisions with health being a focus of which. Also due to the fact that there is a consistent amount of food in your stomach, people are often less compelled to binge in one of their "big 3" meals with their appetites at least partially satiated. Additionally, a pre-determined portion of food gives a rigid "stopping" point and can disincentivize someone to continue eating as they don't yet feel full, but haven't given themselves the proper amount of time for the process where they end up "feeling full" to run its course, thus overeating.

All this can lead to more effective weight management and appetite/impulse control, but the fact remains that the food is metabolized NO DIFFERENTLY split over 6-8 small meals, 3 meals, 1 meal, or any other combination. As long as the overall calorie count and meal composition is the same, how frequent one eats makes no difference. So if you have poor impulse control, it may be a method to consider for these reasons. But in the end it all comes down to how much you are eating, and not when you are eating it.

From the second search result you posted:

"Frequent meals tame the slavering beast of hunger . . . Controlling hunger shrinks your gut. In a study published in the International Journal of Obesity . . . The challenge is keeping the mini meals mini. "It's critical that at the end of the day, the calorie content of your mini meals does not exceed what you would eat in three larger meals," says Jeannie Moloo, Ph.D., R.D."

"There is a point at which cutting calories will work against weight loss because consuming too few calories (or too few meals) leads to increased appetite and low satiety as your body prevents starvation. You will find it hard to implement your healthy eating goals when you’re feeling hungry and dissatisfied. And you will suffer from cravings, ultimately causing you to fall into under-eating and over-eating cycles . . . Nourish your body with quality foods that you can eat more of such as foods that are high in volume, but low in calories. This will help to fill your plate and your stomach without overdoing the calories"

(the titles to both of those articles are misleading, characteristic of "popular" meda outlets, as both stress that to be effective you are not to actually consume more calories, a more accurate but less appealing title would be "Eat more frequently to help control your impulses and lose more weight")

I second the ECA (Ephedrine [bronkaid], Caffeine, Aspirin) stack BUT you have to be really careful with the heart rate. Cool thing about it is it actually works while your stagnant, meaning it raises internal body temperature to a thermogenic phase (that phase one reaches after 15 mins of work out) and you immediately start dropping. Again, WATCH THE HEART RATE!!!!.

Oh yeah, and make sure you eat. Huge appetite suppressant. Lastly, try not to drink anything acidic or sugary while on this because it actually counter balances the stack and neutralizes it rendering it ineffective. The Stack primarily works by lowering your sugar and raising your body temperature. This is aside from stimulating your B-Agonist receptors and other crap.

Too soon for that. Let him lose some weight naturally because its so easy for him to do it where he is. Once it starts to get difficult, then its time to use the ECA stack. You start him off with ECA then he'll be doing clen or DNP a few months down the line. And clen and DNP is some serious shit you don't want to mess with.

Also, do not use an ECA stack if you have high blood pressure, even if it is controlled with drugs AND stay hydrated and don't do anything stupid like going running with a sweat suit on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilbertb11

I second the ECA (Ephedrine [bronkaid], Caffeine, Aspirin) stack BUT you have to be really careful with the heart rate. Cool thing about it is it actually works while your stagnant, meaning it raises internal body temperature to a thermogenic phase (that phase one reaches after 15 mins of work out) and you immediately start dropping. Again, WATCH THE HEART RATE!!!!.

Oh yeah, and make sure you eat. Huge appetite suppressant. Lastly, try not to drink anything acidic or sugary while on this because it actually counter balances the stack and neutralizes it rendering it ineffective. The Stack primarily works by lowering your sugar and raising your body temperature. This is aside from stimulating your B-Agonist receptors and other crap.

Sadly winter is coming so it will be much more difficult for me to loose weight cause lower temperatures makes me eat more to keep my body warm ;/

This doesn't really make sense.

Drink some hot green tea (unsweetened of course) to stay warm. I don't feel warm after I eat a cheeseburger, I feel like crap...

A lot of bad advice in this thread too, but BTM and Quick6EF are pretty much spot on.

As a side note, I would take what these personal "pro" trainers and gym representatives say with a grain of salt. They are in the business of making money, and it's not in their best interest to lose your business. At the end of the day, it is YOU who is responsible for your own health and fitness. Trusting some magic supplement that makes wild claims is usually full of fail.

The only supplements I take are multivitamins and oil supplements (fish, flax seed oils). I do this because I don't have a wide enough range of food in my diet to make up for all the nutrients I actually need. I don't eat fish often enough either.

Oh, and if you want to have a heart attack, take ephedrine, as was mentioned by a couple of people in the thread, really?

Nothing wrong with ephedrine if you are decent health, don't have high BP, and don't have any heart issues.

I don't know anyone who had any problems with ephedra. As I mentioned earlier, the only people who had a heart attack were the ones dumb enough to dehydrate themselves by wearing a sweat suit or a garbage bag and exercising. It's the stupidest thing you can do with or without using ephedra.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Templar

Oh, and if you want to have a heart attack, take ephedrine, as was mentioned by a couple of people in the thread, really?

Nothing wrong with ephedrine if you are decent health, don't have high BP, and don't have any heart issues.

I don't know anyone who had any problems with ephedra. As I mentioned earlier, the only people who had a heart attack were the ones dumb enough to dehydrate themselves by wearing a sweat suit or a garbage bag and exercising. It's the stupidest thing you can do with or without using ephedra.

There are a lot of negative side effects. I don't personally know anyone who has had issues either (even though I don't actually know anyone who has taken this stuff), but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that it is safe for normal use.

Numerous studies in the New England Journal of Medicine and the Annals of Internal Medicine have shown a higher incidence of these adverse side effects when using this garbage. Due to the risks, it's also a banned substance in the International Olympic Committee and the World Anti-Doping Agency. Not to mention the potential long term damage you're doing to your metabolism and other functions by taking this stuff.

Why take the risk? Even if somehow all of these studies are just lies, why still take that risk? I wouldn't recommend taking this, and neither should you. You don't know the current fitness level of the OP. A lot of people who are overweight (not all) have some sort of other issues, high BP, heart issues, etc. I can't believe people would actually recommend to put this garbage in your system... Me personally, not being a doctor (even if I was, I didn't examine the OP as a patient), I wouldn't recommend taking any drug. I wouldn't even recommend a stringent workout regime without recommending he see a doctor first to make sure he can handle it.

IMO, if you can't lose weight without some sort of gimmick (that risks your life), then you're just lazy.

You mention that there are a lot of negative side effects. The side effect profile of ephedra is very similar to the side effects other stimulants.

You also make the claim that you don't know anyone that has taken it. So you make it very clear you don't have much feedback about this product. You heard something on the news about it or someplace else. I have personally taken it, know many people that have taken it, and heard even more feedback off of bodybuilding web sites. It is safe as long as you don't take way too much of it. Keep in mind it is still available over the counter (for some purposes) for a reason, if it was so dangerous, it wouldn't be available at all.

You mentioned its banned by the IOC and WADA. You have people competing with one another, it can be used to cheat, thats why they have banned it. Read your own words closely:
"International Olympic Committee" and
"World Anti-Doping Agency"

What long term damage can it cause to your metabolism?

As I mentioned earlier, you should not take this drug if you have certain pre-existing conditions. Diet and exercise only are the way to go for any beginner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Templar

There are a lot of negative side effects. I don't personally know anyone who has had issues either (even though I don't actually know anyone who has taken this stuff), but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that it is safe for normal use.

Numerous studies in the New England Journal of Medicine and the Annals of Internal Medicine have shown a higher incidence of these adverse side effects when using this garbage. Due to the risks, it's also a banned substance in the International Olympic Committee and the World Anti-Doping Agency. Not to mention the potential long term damage you're doing to your metabolism and other functions by taking this stuff.

Why take the risk? Even if somehow all of these studies are just lies, why still take that risk? I wouldn't recommend taking this, and neither should you. You don't know the current fitness level of the OP. A lot of people who are overweight (not all) have some sort of other issues, high BP, heart issues, etc. I can't believe people would actually recommend to put this garbage in your system... Me personally, not being a doctor (even if I was, I didn't examine the OP as a patient), I wouldn't recommend taking any drug. I wouldn't even recommend a stringent workout regime without recommending he see a doctor first to make sure he can handle it.

IMO, if you can't lose weight without some sort of gimmick (that risks your life), then you're just lazy.

You mention that there are a lot of negative side effects. The side effect profile of ephedra is very similar to the side effects other stimulants.

You also make the claim that you don't know anyone that has taken it. So you make it very clear you don't have much feedback about this product. You heard something on the news about it or someplace else. I have personally taken it, know many people that have taken it, and heard even more feedback off of bodybuilding web sites. It is safe as long as you don't take way too much of it. Keep in mind it is still available over the counter (for some purposes) for a reason, if it was so dangerous, it wouldn't be available at all.
You mentioned its banned by the IOC and WADA. You have people competing with one another, it can be used to cheat, thats why they have banned it. Read your own words closely:
"International Olympic Committee" and
"World Anti-Doping Agency"

What long term damage can it cause to your metabolism?

As I mentioned earlier, you should not take this drug if you have certain pre-existing conditions. Diet and exercise only are the way to go for any beginner.

Incoming wall of text...

I think we're miscommunicating. Are you talking about ephedra or the alkaloid ephedrine that comes from it? They actually are kind of different, especially when talking the legality of each. In the US, ephedra has been banned by the FDA since 2004. The sale of ephedra containing supplements is illegal in the US. Ephedrine itself has never been illegal apparently. Also, both are regulated by quantity and they have reporting requirements since they can be used to produce meth. I am interested to see what product you take and if it is actually ephedra or not... You act like it is one small study that has been conducted, or it's only been one or two cases of negative effects. The product was pulled from the shelf for a reason. Like I said before, just because you don't personally know anyone who has had an issue doesn't mean that NO ONE has had issues.

There have been plenty of randomized tests done that show marginal to moderate weight loss with the product, I'll admit that. And yes, many of the negative side effects are similar to any other stimulant. I never said they were different, did I? This discussion is not about other stimulants. I won't go into how I feel about other stimulants, but I now prefer to avoid caffeine in my diet as much as possible as well. Comparing the use of the product to "other stimulants" is just a ploy used to try to ignore the negative side effects. We're not talking the equivalent of a cup of coffee, we're talking a concentrated dosage in a pill format equal to many cups of coffee. Caffeine pills have been under just as much scrutiny for their side effects, although they are not banned.

Studies have shown that combinations of caffeine and ephedra drastically increase blood pressure. Several cases of heart attacks in people with no prior disposition to heart disease have also been reported.

As for the long term effects, I know people build tolerances to stimulant use, and even go through withdrawals when they stop using them (caffeine headaches anyone?). Based on no scientific evidence, just my personal opinion, I would think that something that ramps up your metabolism artificially/chemically for a long period of time would have some sort of adverse effect. Kind of like supercharging your vehicle might take some years/miles off the life of your engine. Just my opinion though, and I can't be bothered to do the research now, maybe when I get home tonight.

After having personal experience with some diet pills out there (and having negative side effects myself), I gave up and decided if I REALLY wanted to lose weight, I needed to be disciplined in my diet and exercise. I realized that pills aren't magic, and most of the time they do more harm than good. I used to be a Division I swimmer in college. I was in great shape, but when I graduated and stopped swimming, it fell apart. I got lazy and gained weight. Looking for a quick fix, I turned to stuff like Ripped Fuel, Hydroxycut, and a couple of others. I still worked out, and saw some short term loss, but after a while I was experiencing constantly high heart rates (90+ BPM while sitting) and higher than normal BP (130/90+). After I was told by a doctor to start to watch my BP more closely, I tossed the pills in the trash. Now I am in great shape and I don't have any heart or BP issues. I found I was just being lazy, and didn't want to do the work on my own. If you need some sort of gimmick pill to lose weight, you're undisciplined and lazy IMO, I know I was. I'm not shooting myself in the foot, I am just not lazy and looking for a quick fix anymore that risks my overall health.

Control your diet and get off of the couch if you really want to lose weight and be healthy.

Edit: I'm not trying to change your mind or anything, you can do what you want. In the end, we can just agree to disagree

I'm not a fan of the combination, or just ephedra alone for my own personal use either. An ECA stack will cause about a 0.5 pound a week weight loss, which is not much at all. Someone who diets and has a solid workout plan can lose 2-3 pounds a week. There is no easy fix, it really does take hard work.

I was talking about ephedra, the alkaloids don't do anything. Look up the over the counter medication called primatene . It is still available, its been banned in supplements such as weight loss pills, but has not been banned for all purposes, so you can still buy it. And before you start with "it's different, primatene is ephedrine hcl," its the same thing!

No one said its free of side effects, its just that some people are affected by them, like people with pre-existing conditions. Some people may not know they have a pre-existing condition. Also, I never said no one had issues. Most seem to be minor such as an increase in BP, increased heart rate, slightly higher body temperature, which all are probably present in almost everyone who takes the drug or drug combination. None of the these are a big deal to someone who is in decent health with no pre-existing conditions if used for a short period of time. The serious side effects are pretty rare if you look at the number of people that actually took it.

You can't compare a human body to a car. The body repairs itself, maybe not every part of the body, but many parts are repaired over time.

Some people are willing to take certain risks, some aren't. For me it wasn't about possibly having a serious side effect (which is rare), it was the minor stuff like shaky hands, increased body temp, and having to take the pills a few times a day. It just wasn't worth the benefit compared to working out and dieting. Most people don't understand that you can't be on this junk forever and if you want to keep the weight off, you can't constantly eat crap and not exercise.

Just looking over what you wrote again, how much were you taking that your resting HR was so high?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Templar

Incoming wall of text...

I think we're miscommunicating. Are you talking about ephedra or the alkaloid ephedrine that comes from it? They actually are kind of different, especially when talking the legality of each. In the US, ephedra has been banned by the FDA since 2004. The sale of ephedra containing supplements is illegal in the US. Ephedrine itself has never been illegal apparently. Also, both are regulated by quantity and they have reporting requirements since they can be used to produce meth. I am interested to see what product you take and if it is actually ephedra or not... You act like it is one small study that has been conducted, or it's only been one or two cases of negative effects. The product was pulled from the shelf for a reason. Like I said before, just because you don't personally know anyone who has had an issue doesn't mean that NO ONE has had issues.

There have been plenty of randomized tests done that show marginal to moderate weight loss with the product, I'll admit that. And yes, many of the negative side effects are similar to any other stimulant. I never said they were different, did I? This discussion is not about other stimulants. I won't go into how I feel about other stimulants, but I now prefer to avoid caffeine in my diet as much as possible as well. Comparing the use of the product to "other stimulants" is just a ploy used to try to ignore the negative side effects. We're not talking the equivalent of a cup of coffee, we're talking a concentrated dosage in a pill format equal to many cups of coffee. Caffeine pills have been under just as much scrutiny for their side effects, although they are not banned.

Studies have shown that combinations of caffeine and ephedra drastically increase blood pressure. Several cases of heart attacks in people with no prior disposition to heart disease have also been reported.

As for the long term effects, I know people build tolerances to stimulant use, and even go through withdrawals when they stop using them (caffeine headaches anyone?). Based on no scientific evidence, just my personal opinion, I would think that something that ramps up your metabolism artificially/chemically for a long period of time would have some sort of adverse effect. Kind of like supercharging your vehicle might take some years/miles off the life of your engine. Just my opinion though, and I can't be bothered to do the research now, maybe when I get home tonight.

After having personal experience with some diet pills out there (and having negative side effects myself), I gave up and decided if I REALLY wanted to lose weight, I needed to be disciplined in my diet and exercise. I realized that pills aren't magic, and most of the time they do more harm than good. I used to be a Division I swimmer in college. I was in great shape, but when I graduated and stopped swimming, it fell apart. I got lazy and gained weight. Looking for a quick fix, I turned to stuff like Ripped Fuel, Hydroxycut, and a couple of others. I still worked out, and saw some short term loss, but after a while I was experiencing constantly high heart rates (90+ BPM while sitting) and higher than normal BP (130/90+). After I was told by a doctor to start to watch my BP more closely, I tossed the pills in the trash. Now I am in great shape and I don't have any heart or BP issues. I found I was just being lazy, and didn't want to do the work on my own. If you need some sort of gimmick pill to lose weight, you're undisciplined and lazy IMO, I know I was. I'm not shooting myself in the foot, I am just not lazy and looking for a quick fix anymore that risks my overall health.

Control your diet and get off of the couch if you really want to lose weight and be healthy.

Edit: I'm not trying to change your mind or anything, you can do what you want. In the end, we can just agree to disagree