Recent broadcast have Gerrit Losch talking about not holding a grudge and in Septembers broadcast David Splain talking about not demanding an apology after being wronged.

The subject of forgiveness and revenge is one of many examples of moral contradictions in the bible. The book 1984 mentioned the terms double think and double speak. That is to believe and verbally advocate two opposing views at the same time and resorting to them when convenient.

The Watchtower resorts to telling it's members to be humble, forgiving, not standing up for your rights, suck it up when you are a victim and of course to leave it in Jehovah's hands. They do this to keep the rank & file submissive and quiet when elders and others in the Congregation and even the own Governing Body commit injustices and they don't want bad publicity or their authority undermined and challenged. Justice and truth are NOT important in JW world unless the Authority and image of the Governing Body is undermined.

However, when anyone starts a website and starts exposing the Governing Bodies hypocrisy and uses their own quotes and videos to show the world that they are brainwashed, power hungry cult members & inhumane does the Watchtower Society remain quiet, humble and just leave it in Jehovah's hands and forgiving?? HELL NO!!!! They get their legal team to go after you. They will even sue you to remove the videos and quotes. If you're a baptized member, they will disfellowship you and disgrace your name, calling you evil, apostate, demonized, mentally diseased and demand that every other JW on planet earth shun you and treat you as a dead non-existant scumbag. If an "apostate" changes his mind and returns, it will be MANY years if ever, before he can have a "privilege" again. So these people do hold grudges and have their revenge against anyone that dares to undermine them. They even save your judicial comittee file indefinitely. Yet they shamelessly speak publicly about being forgiving and not holding any grudges or take any action against those that have wronged us.

The truth is that the Bible can be used to teach and justify whatever in hell you feel like justifying.

You want others to be forgiving towards you? Just quote the words of Jesus about forgiveness.

You want to justify holding a grudge and revenge? Just quote from the Old Testament especially the accounts of King David killing thousands including his last words to his son Solomon where he tells him not to forget what a neighboring nation did to them and to kill them. How about David killing Goliat? Was david forgiving. humble and just left it in Jehovah's hands like the WT likes to tell it's members? How about Joseph? His brothers really screwed him over. Yet he DID NOT forgive them automatically. Only after they had apologized and truly changed did Joseph forgive them. If Joseph's brothers would not have repented and not apologized it is a fact that Joseph would have killed them all and justifiably so. Otherwise why did he test them? How about Samuel killing the King of Amalekwith his own hands? Were these actions demonstrating love, humility, peaceableness and meekness qualities that the New Testament speaks so much about for gods people?

So the Old Testament is full of examples of gods chosen spiritual men holding grudges, having hatred towards their neighbors and executing revenge. Not to mention having concubines (today we call them mistresses) and slaves (today we call that barbaric and violation of civil rights). In the Old Testament pre-marital sex WAS NOT CONDEMNED BY GOD! A single man can rape and kidnap any women he likesand his only punishment was to pay a bride price and not allowed to divorce her!

You also have the New Testament advocating forgiveness, leaving vengeance in god's hands, loving your neighbor, meekeness, and being humble.

So which is it? Whatever you find convenient for your situation.

One of the main reasons why I am agnostic (leaning towards atheist) is the blatant, morally contradicting lessons found in the Old Testament against the New Testament. The Bible cannot be taken literally, nor as a moral guide. You need a lot of double think, self deceit and doublespeak to believe in the Bible.

Actually, Smiddy, the Catholic Church proudly claims not to be based on the Bible, as does its sister churches, the Orthodox and Oriental Christian churches. Judaism itself is also pre-Bible. So "all Christian sects" do not claim to be based on the Bible. The oldest ones claim to be the writers, inventors and canonizers of it.

Only the Protestants claim that the Bible is the ultimate revelation from God, an exhaustive compendium from which all ones beliefs and doctrines much be taken from. They are the ones who base their beliefs on the Bible, a book that reflects the teachings of another religion.

If you believe the Bible is supposed to the ultimate moral guide, then you are still being duped by the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Bible is a reflection of the Church's faith and hope, not its origin of doctrine. It was composed by a religion, not written as the basis for one. The Witnesses and all who hold to such a view are wrong.

How can a book written by people, no matter how holy, be the basis for all morality and religion? The writers would have had to have a religion in the first place and beliefs to write about. If they were writing about their beliefs and religious views in its pages, then the pages cannot be the source of their beliefs, the foundation for their morals. The source of their religion is outside the Bible.

Don't blame the Scriptures for the confusion. The Bible is a reflection of a religion, not a guide to how to start one. If you read a reflection without knowing its source, you are bound to get things backwards.

This is exactly where I am at now with the elders. They are DEAMDING THAT I FORGIVE THEM FOR ALLOWING CHILD MOLESTERS TO HOLD AND TAKE CARE OF CHILDREN PEROID!

They say they just made mistakes and that they did not really know way, way, way back in 07 and 08 that having registered sex offenders with children was not good. That they had to get clearer information from Bethel on how to handle it. But I am supposed to forgive them now and just move on even through their own magazines say victims of abuse just simply cannot do that as the October 8th 1993 Awake says.

I was just told I need to break bread with these elders even through they will not break bread with me at their homes, By forcing me to have them into my home to "break bread" with them it is showing the outside world that I accept their stupidity.

Also Ihave just been told that we are all just volunteers and can refuse a assignment in field serive. I was just told by a CO that if I get assigned to work with a pedophile I can say NO! Funny there is nothing in print that says this, I am just suppose to take the current CO'S word at this until the next CO changes it.

Yet every WT that has come out in the last 5 year's says we have to obey the ekders no matter what.

11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” Matthew 11:20-24 New International Version

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23-34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34 New International Version

that molestation victims do not have to forgive molesters (in one place)

Insight

Moreover, forgiving others for personal offenses, regardless of the number of times involved, is a Christian requirement. (Lu 17:3, 4; Eph 4:32; Col 3:13) God’s forgiveness is not extended toward those who refuse to forgive others. (Mt 6:14, 15) However, even when serious wrongdoing leads to expulsion of “the wicked man” from the Christian congregation, that person may in due time be accorded forgiveness if he proves that he is truly repentant. At that time all in the congregation can confirm their love for him. (1Co 5:13; 2Co 2:6-11) However, Christians are not required to forgive those who practice malicious, willful sin with no repentance. Such become God’s enemies.—Heb 10:26-31; Ps 139:21, 22.--

Regarding them, the psalmist said: “Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.” (Psalm 139:21, 22) It was because they intensely hated Jehovah that David looked on them with abhorrence.Apostatesare included among those who show their hatred of Jehovah by revolting against him. Apostasy is, in reality, a rebellion against Jehovah. Some apostates profess to know and serve God, but they reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible, but they reject Jehovah’s organization and actively try to hinder its work. When they deliberately choose such badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of their makeup, then a Christian must hate (in the Biblical sense of the word) those who have inseparably attached themselves to the badness. True Christians share Jehovah’s feelings toward such apostates; they are not curious about apostate ideas. On the contrary, they “feel a loathing” toward those who have made themselves God’s enemies, but they leave it to Jehovah to execute vengeance.—Job 13:16; Romans 12:19; 2 John 9, 10.

The Scriptures clearly indicate that Jehovah does not forgive unrepentant, hardened sinners. (Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26, 27) What about us? Insight on the Scriptures says: “Christians are not required to forgive those who practice malicious, willful sin with no repentance. Such become God’s enemies.” (Volume 1, page 862) No Christian who has been a victim of extremely unjust, detestable, or heinous treatment should feel forced to forgive, or pardon, a wrongdoer who is not repentant.—Psalm 139:21, 22.

You are right that the religion pushes "forgiveness" because they want the rank & file Witnesses to overlook the injustices committed against them by elders and also if they suffer harm because of the religion's policies.

They like to hide behind the excuse of "imperfection". The problem is though that many of the problems between people there are caused by the religion's faulty teachings. So, it's a little bit more than just the inherited imperfection of people in the hall. Somebody might have a cranky personality and delusions of grandeur and imagine that people there are expected to "put up with them", instead of working on the virtue of self-control.

Also, their admonition "not take your brother to court" has caused many Witnesses to be outright defrauded by other worthless Witnesses who want something for nothing, etc. Even though this is in the Bible, the Witnesses use it as a legality of sorts to get away with murder.

Even when I was active in the religion, I knew Witnesses were LESS trustworthy than many so-called worldly people. I perceived many JWs as being deadbeats and con artists and I kept a discreet distance from them and their BS.