At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

People pray when they are afraid. It's only natural that those prayers aren't answered, but it helps them none the less in the moment. It's only afterwards that the realization creeps in that their prayers did not deliver them from the onslaught of the physical and emotional misery. Then they rationalize it by saying God works in mysterious ways. It's the nature of faith. It's kind of sad.

A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."

I want to have a relationship with my Creator so that I could get to know him better. When I'm afraid, I pray to God but I also pray when I need something or just to tell Him I adore him or just to praise and worship him.

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

People pray when they are afraid. It's only natural that those prayers aren't answered, but it helps them none the less in the moment. It's only afterwards that the realization creeps in that their prayers did not deliver them from the onslaught of the physical and emotional misery. Then they rationalize it by saying God works in mysterious ways. It's the nature of faith. It's kind of sad.

Hey, you've changed your picture!

I'm aghast at the cynicism shown by the priest. Did he really believe in God? When he told the boys "if you want to tell someone, tell God" he was openly mocking the existence of God. Either that or he was supremely confident that God never intercedes under any circumstances. Either way it depressing that such depravity can be committed by God's representatives and that it was aided and abetted by two other priests.

"Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you".
"I am being absurd, but no way is it trolling". [paraphrased]
--- dsjpk5

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

People pray when they are afraid. It's only natural that those prayers aren't answered, but it helps them none the less in the moment. It's only afterwards that the realization creeps in that their prayers did not deliver them from the onslaught of the physical and emotional misery. Then they rationalize it by saying God works in mysterious ways. It's the nature of faith. It's kind of sad.

Hey, you've changed your picture!

I'm aghast at the cynicism shown by the priest. Did he really believe in God? When he told the boys "if you want to tell someone, tell God" he was openly mocking the existence of God. Either that or he was supremely confident that God never intercedes under any circumstances. Either way it depressing that such depravity can be committed by God's representatives and that it was aided and abetted by two other priests.

Yeah, I was tired of looking at it so I changed it.

I watched "Secrets of the Vatican" for the first time the other week and it disgusted me. Child rape and molestation are probably the only things I'd ever commit murder over. The fact that priests, men sworn to celibacy, who are supposed to be moral leaders, have raped children sickens me. This transcript of Monica Barrett, interviewed by Frontline (pbs) for "Secrets of the Vatican" says it all...

MONICA BARRETT: It was a Saturday, and I was 8 years old. And my father took my younger sister and I and we drove out to Lake Geneva to visit with this priest, William Effinger.

At one point in the day, Father Effinger said he needed help in the church with candles. And my father said, "Go help him." And we went into the church, where he assaulted me for a period of time, and ultimately ended up raping me.

While he was raping me, I didn't understand what was happening. I just knew there was this incredible pain and I could hardly breathe, and I kept praying that God would just let me die.

And when he finished, he stood up and he looked at me and he said, "If you tell anybody what you did, they won't believe you. And if you tell anybody, your parents will burn in Hell."

And then he gave me penance to do. And he turned and looked at me, and he smoothed his hair back with both of his hands, and he walked down the aisle of the church. And I remember hearing the door close. And I just sat there because I didn't know what I should do.

And eventually, I realized that there was blood on my legs and there was blood on the new purple shorts that my grandma had given to me for my birthday. And so when I got to the end of the aisle of the church, I wiped the blood off with some of the holy water, and I went and sat outside under this big tree. And I was just crying because I was in pain and I didn't understand what had happened to me, and I was scared.

As a child who went to Catholic school, we were taught that the priest is basically the closest you'll ever get to God. And for me, when I was raped by that priest, it just pulled my entire foundation out from under me. Everything was just taken away in that day.

A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

People pray when they are afraid. It's only natural that those prayers aren't answered, but it helps them none the less in the moment. It's only afterwards that the realization creeps in that their prayers did not deliver them from the onslaught of the physical and emotional misery. Then they rationalize it by saying God works in mysterious ways. It's the nature of faith. It's kind of sad.

Hey, you've changed your picture!

I'm aghast at the cynicism shown by the priest. Did he really believe in God? When he told the boys "if you want to tell someone, tell God" he was openly mocking the existence of God. Either that or he was supremely confident that God never intercedes under any circumstances. Either way it depressing that such depravity can be committed by God's representatives and that it was aided and abetted by two other priests.

Yeah, I was tired of looking at it so I changed it.

I watched "Secrets of the Vatican" for the first time the other week and it disgusted me. Child rape and molestation are probably the only things I'd ever commit murder over. The fact that priests, men sworn to celibacy, who are supposed to be moral leaders, have raped children sickens me. This transcript of Monica Barrett, interviewed by Frontline (pbs) for "Secrets of the Vatican" says it all...

MONICA BARRETT: It was a Saturday, and I was 8 years old. And my father took my younger sister and I and we drove out to Lake Geneva to visit with this priest, William Effinger.

At one point in the day, Father Effinger said he needed help in the church with candles. And my father said, "Go help him." And we went into the church, where he assaulted me for a period of time, and ultimately ended up raping me.

While he was raping me, I didn't understand what was happening. I just knew there was this incredible pain and I could hardly breathe, and I kept praying that God would just let me die.

And when he finished, he stood up and he looked at me and he said, "If you tell anybody what you did, they won't believe you. And if you tell anybody, your parents will burn in Hell."

And then he gave me penance to do. And he turned and looked at me, and he smoothed his hair back with both of his hands, and he walked down the aisle of the church. And I remember hearing the door close. And I just sat there because I didn't know what I should do.

And eventually, I realized that there was blood on my legs and there was blood on the new purple shorts that my grandma had given to me for my birthday. And so when I got to the end of the aisle of the church, I wiped the blood off with some of the holy water, and I went and sat outside under this big tree. And I was just crying because I was in pain and I didn't understand what had happened to me, and I was scared.

As a child who went to Catholic school, we were taught that the priest is basically the closest you'll ever get to God. And for me, when I was raped by that priest, it just pulled my entire foundation out from under me. Everything was just taken away in that day.

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

People pray when they are afraid. It's only natural that those prayers aren't answered, but it helps them none the less in the moment. It's only afterwards that the realization creeps in that their prayers did not deliver them from the onslaught of the physical and emotional misery. Then they rationalize it by saying God works in mysterious ways. It's the nature of faith. It's kind of sad.

Hey, you've changed your picture!

I'm aghast at the cynicism shown by the priest. Did he really believe in God? When he told the boys "if you want to tell someone, tell God" he was openly mocking the existence of God. Either that or he was supremely confident that God never intercedes under any circumstances. Either way it depressing that such depravity can be committed by God's representatives and that it was aided and abetted by two other priests.

Yeah, I was tired of looking at it so I changed it.

I watched "Secrets of the Vatican" for the first time the other week and it disgusted me. Child rape and molestation are probably the only things I'd ever commit murder over. The fact that priests, men sworn to celibacy, who are supposed to be moral leaders, have raped children sickens me. This transcript of Monica Barrett, interviewed by Frontline (pbs) for "Secrets of the Vatican" says it all...

MONICA BARRETT: It was a Saturday, and I was 8 years old. And my father took my younger sister and I and we drove out to Lake Geneva to visit with this priest, William Effinger.

At one point in the day, Father Effinger said he needed help in the church with candles. And my father said, "Go help him." And we went into the church, where he assaulted me for a period of time, and ultimately ended up raping me.

While he was raping me, I didn't understand what was happening. I just knew there was this incredible pain and I could hardly breathe, and I kept praying that God would just let me die.

And when he finished, he stood up and he looked at me and he said, "If you tell anybody what you did, they won't believe you. And if you tell anybody, your parents will burn in Hell."

And then he gave me penance to do. And he turned and looked at me, and he smoothed his hair back with both of his hands, and he walked down the aisle of the church. And I remember hearing the door close. And I just sat there because I didn't know what I should do.

And eventually, I realized that there was blood on my legs and there was blood on the new purple shorts that my grandma had given to me for my birthday. And so when I got to the end of the aisle of the church, I wiped the blood off with some of the holy water, and I went and sat outside under this big tree. And I was just crying because I was in pain and I didn't understand what had happened to me, and I was scared.

As a child who went to Catholic school, we were taught that the priest is basically the closest you'll ever get to God. And for me, when I was raped by that priest, it just pulled my entire foundation out from under me. Everything was just taken away in that day.

My father used to say that jail was too good for such animals. He advocated making cuts on their arms and sprinkling salt into the wounds. Then hang them. As a young liberal-minded do-gooder, I was appalled and argued for justice and rehabilitation. I think I've just become my father.

"Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you".
"I am being absurd, but no way is it trolling". [paraphrased]
--- dsjpk5

My father used to say that jail was too good for such animals. He advocated making cuts on their arms and sprinkling salt into the wounds. Then hang them. As a young liberal-minded do-gooder, I was appalled and argued for justice and rehabilitation. I think I've just become my father.

I can relate.

The whole documentary isn't on youtube, but it is on Netflix. Attached is Monica's interview on Youtube. I cried when I watched it.

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

When I was a correctional officer, one of my inmates was the son of a protestant minister. The boy had molested nearly every child in his father's congregation, claiming that it was God's will. When one boy threatened to tell his parents, the minister's son took the boys life.

He read his Bible every day in his cell, and told me that God had forgiven him. I told him to keep dreaming.

God put us here with the intention of letting bad things happen to innocent people, so that his judgments will be just. Victims will be compensated in the eternity. The guilty will get theirs.

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!(Matthew 18:7)

Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

This is why rational religion has so often become mired in spiritualism. The Muslims were a very rational and philosophy loving people until they realized you cannot comprehend God through reason. Jesus tells as much in the story of the Vineyard where the owner goes successively to three different groups to work and gives the all the same pay. People objected, but upon what grounds. Did not each get the deal they were promised? Justice is a human form of relationship. It is what people create law around, the goal law is to achieve. While many hold that God is Just, God is first of all God, and to expect God to work by human logic, and a human sense of justice is simply insane. People believe in God or the don't. People pray to God or they don't. Just because God does not seem to hear their prayers does not mean that God does not hear their prayers and have his own answer for it.

The acknowledgement of victims in their life that there is a higher power, and one that represents right, truth, and justice is one that brings them to a crucial point in their life where they must forgive all wrongs done to them in order live their live oriented toward the future. It is for people to press for Justice, but only each individual can give themselves peace. I am not here pushing any faith, faiths, or beliefs. I am saying that some times, the power of prayer is really the power of introspection, the chance even amid a congregation to get ones feelings to the surface and examine them, and act upon them as we would wish. As we confess our sins so should we confess our dreams, love, and desire to be better, and this often means to be healed of the hate and hard feeling we hold in our lives for those who have injured us. And we have all been injured, and have all injured.

If I can relate a personal story it is of a man I am proud to call my friend. This man was raised in poverty, and has a sharp mind, and a short stature, but he is powerful. And this is no joke, but his mother got pregnant by a little person from a carnival. And in the Southern town where she lived, they simply took the child away because in their eyes to have a child out of wedlock was a sign that she was too immoral to raise a child. She knew where they baby was, so she went and got the baby and ran north, but for this act of kidnapping her own child, was so frightened that she lived her life in poverty, off the books, and never even applied for social security. And she carried on a life time relationship with the father of the child, having a family while this man was forever out of the picture. And the family is a sort of study in genetics, but that is beside the point.

The point I would make is that Mike's first wife left him. He caught her cheating, there was a fight, and for over a year he slept on the couch, with the relationship going no where. She had seen an attorney and the attorney said: don't go. The law is about to be changed and you can get half of his pension if you are willing to wait till next year. This was a hard working guy who busted ess and because of a good personality had some decent jobs, had saved his money, and done everything right. So he lost his house to save his pension and he harbored a great grudge against the mother of his children. But this guy was a Christian. And he was never able to find any inner peace until he began to pray for the very person who had cleaned him out and cheated on him.

There is a contradiction that must be resolved in our minds before we ask God to help those who have hurt us. It is like Jesus saying if you want your sacrifice accepted, first make peace with those you are angry with. It is emotionally impossible to honestly ask God to help one you hate, Either you must hang onto your hate, and do not ask God for anything, or you throw you hate on the fire and ask God on their behalf for good. And I know that is a painful pill to swallow for many Christians, but it reaches the same end as going to a shrink, and talking it our. The object is resolution, acceptance. There is nothing any of us can do to change the past, but hate is like glue that keeps the past stuck to us while we drag it around to the point of our moral exhaustion. We do not forgive because others deserve it. We forgive to know peace, and that peace comes when we realize we have the strength to move forward with our lives.

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

When I was a correctional officer, one of my inmates was the son of a protestant minister. The boy had molested nearly every child in his father's congregation, claiming that it was God's will. When one boy threatened to tell his parents, the minister's son took the boys life.

He read his Bible every day in his cell, and told me that God had forgiven him. I told him to keep dreaming.

Well said.

God put us here with the intention of letting bad things happen to innocent people, so that his judgments will be just. Victims will be compensated in the eternity. The guilty will get theirs.

And if there is no eternity, they would just get away with it, right? That's why we, even Christians, don't simply rely on some kind of cosmic karma. Deep down we know that it is wishful thinking. That's why we have Earthly justice.

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!(Matthew 18:7)

"Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you".
"I am being absurd, but no way is it trolling". [paraphrased]
--- dsjpk5

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

This is why rational religion has so often become mired in spiritualism. The Muslims were a very rational and philosophy loving people until they realized you cannot comprehend God through reason. Jesus tells as much in the story of the Vineyard where the owner goes successively to three different groups to work and gives the all the same pay. People objected, but upon what grounds. Did not each get the deal they were promised? Justice is a human form of relationship. It is what people create law around, the goal law is to achieve. While many hold that God is Just, God is first of all God, and to expect God to work by human logic, and a human sense of justice is simply insane.

Not at all. Firstly, we were supposedly created in the image of God, so whatever traits we exhibit (such as logic and a sense of justice) must derive from God. Secondly, this is just a variation of "God works in mysterious ways". Whenever Christians are stumped by a question, this is what they resort to. I'm sorry, but the evidence is that God doesn't work in any way at all, mysterious or otherwise. He seems to be in a permanent witness protection scheme.

People believe in God or the don't. People pray to God or they don't. Just because God does not seem to hear their prayers does not mean that God does not hear their prayers and have his own answer for it.

It's not that the answer is not what we expect. It's that there is never any answer at all. Almost as if he isn't really there, don't you think?

The acknowledgement of victims in their life that there is a higher power, and one that represents right, truth, and justice is one that brings them to a crucial point in their life where they must forgive all wrongs done to them in order live their live oriented toward the future. It is for people to press for Justice, but only each individual can give themselves peace. I am not here pushing any faith, faiths, or beliefs. I am saying that some times, the power of prayer is really the power of introspection, the chance even amid a congregation to get ones feelings to the surface and examine them, and act upon them as we would wish. As we confess our sins so should we confess our dreams, love, and desire to be better, and this often means to be healed of the hate and hard feeling we hold in our lives for those who have injured us. And we have all been injured, and have all injured.

If I can relate a personal story it is of a man I am proud to call my friend. This man was raised in poverty, and has a sharp mind, and a short stature, but he is powerful. And this is no joke, but his mother got pregnant by a little person from a carnival. And in the Southern town where she lived, they simply took the child away because in their eyes to have a child out of wedlock was a sign that she was too immoral to raise a child. She knew where they baby was, so she went and got the baby and ran north, but for this act of kidnapping her own child, was so frightened that she lived her life in poverty, off the books, and never even applied for social security. And she carried on a life time relationship with the father of the child, having a family while this man was forever out of the picture. And the family is a sort of study in genetics, but that is beside the point.

The point I would make is that Mike's first wife left him. He caught her cheating, there was a fight, and for over a year he slept on the couch, with the relationship going no where. She had seen an attorney and the attorney said: don't go. The law is about to be changed and you can get half of his pension if you are willing to wait till next year. This was a hard working guy who busted ess and because of a good personality had some decent jobs, had saved his money, and done everything right. So he lost his house to save his pension and he harbored a great grudge against the mother of his children. But this guy was a Christian. And he was never able to find any inner peace until he began to pray for the very person who had cleaned him out and cheated on him.

There is a contradiction that must be resolved in our minds before we ask God to help those who have hurt us. It is like Jesus saying if you want your sacrifice accepted, first make peace with those you are angry with. It is emotionally impossible to honestly ask God to help one you hate, Either you must hang onto your hate, and do not ask God for anything, or you throw you hate on the fire and ask God on their behalf for good. And I know that is a painful pill to swallow for many Christians, but it reaches the same end as going to a shrink, and talking it our. The object is resolution, acceptance. There is nothing any of us can do to change the past, but hate is like glue that keeps the past stuck to us while we drag it around to the point of our moral exhaustion. We do not forgive because others deserve it. We forgive to know peace, and that peace comes when we realize we have the strength to move forward with our lives.

This is all very well, and some victims do make the kind of adjustment you talk about and get past this aweful trauma later in their adult lives. Many do not. Some end up committing suicide and some become abusers themselves. Lives are destroyed or, at least, severely damaged.

I find it interesting that you concentrate on the victims and how they should cope and yet you say nothing about the perpetrator and his accomplices. These are supposed to be men of God! Yet you seem to be putting the onus on their victims to heal themselves. I submit that some of that healing cannot occur until justice is done and seen to be done. Only then can there be closure of some kind.

Meanwhile an omnipotent God, as ever, continues to do nothing. We are supposed to just have faith that justice will prevail in an alleged afterlife. Some of us lack that faith. As they say, justice delayed is justice denied.

"Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you".
"I am being absurd, but no way is it trolling". [paraphrased]
--- dsjpk5

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

When I was a correctional officer, one of my inmates was the son of a protestant minister. The boy had molested nearly every child in his father's congregation, claiming that it was God's will. When one boy threatened to tell his parents, the minister's son took the boys life.

He read his Bible every day in his cell, and told me that God had forgiven him. I told him to keep dreaming.

God put us here with the intention of letting bad things happen to innocent people, so that his judgments will be just. Victims will be compensated in the eternity. The guilty will get theirs.

SO part of this God plan is too allow children to be raped...................What a plan.........what a F*CKING PLAN !!!!

What can I say, I am doubtful it's part of some "plan".................

And your whole God allows it so he can punish the guilty contradicts some christian train of thought. You see Jesus paid for their sins, which means you don't have to pay for it I.E be punished for it And this double standard from some christians pisses me off to no end.

They will complain about how if there is no God then the guilty go free and whinge and moan and b*tch about how undesirable it is..............................then mention oh yeah they are saved Jesus died for their sins so they don't have to bear the punishment for it.

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!(Matthew 18:7)

"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

At 1/23/2015 6:06:31 AM, Classified wrote:For me, I don't just pray for nothing...

I want to have a relationship with my Creator so that I could get to know him better.

Maybe, that's the answer, those boys were just trying to get to know God better and have a relationship with Him, so God gave them a relationship they would never forget.

Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

This is why rational religion has so often become mired in spiritualism. The Muslims were a very rational and philosophy loving people until they realized you cannot comprehend God through reason. Jesus tells as much in the story of the Vineyard where the owner goes successively to three different groups to work and gives the all the same pay. People objected, but upon what grounds. Did not each get the deal they were promised? Justice is a human form of relationship. It is what people create law around, the goal law is to achieve. While many hold that God is Just, God is first of all God, and to expect God to work by human logic, and a human sense of justice is simply insane.

Not at all. Firstly, we were supposedly created in the image of God, so whatever traits we exhibit (such as logic and a sense of justice) must derive from God. Secondly, this is just a variation of "God works in mysterious ways". Whenever Christians are stumped by a question, this is what they resort to. I'm sorry, but the evidence is that God doesn't work in any way at all, mysterious or otherwise. He seems to be in a permanent witness protection scheme.

People believe in God or the don't. People pray to God or they don't. Just because God does not seem to hear their prayers does not mean that God does not hear their prayers and have his own answer for it.

It's not that the answer is not what we expect. It's that there is never any answer at all. Almost as if he isn't really there, don't you think?

The acknowledgement of victims in their life that there is a higher power, and one that represents right, truth, and justice is one that brings them to a crucial point in their life where they must forgive all wrongs done to them in order live their live oriented toward the future. It is for people to press for Justice, but only each individual can give themselves peace. I am not here pushing any faith, faiths, or beliefs. I am saying that some times, the power of prayer is really the power of introspection, the chance even amid a congregation to get ones feelings to the surface and examine them, and act upon them as we would wish. As we confess our sins so should we confess our dreams, love, and desire to be better, and this often means to be healed of the hate and hard feeling we hold in our lives for those who have injured us. And we have all been injured, and have all injured.

If I can relate a personal story it is of a man I am proud to call my friend. This man was raised in poverty, and has a sharp mind, and a short stature, but he is powerful. And this is no joke, but his mother got pregnant by a little person from a carnival. And in the Southern town where she lived, they simply took the child away because in their eyes to have a child out of wedlock was a sign that she was too immoral to raise a child. She knew where they baby was, so she went and got the baby and ran north, but for this act of kidnapping her own child, was so frightened that she lived her life in poverty, off the books, and never even applied for social security. And she carried on a life time relationship with the father of the child, having a family while this man was forever out of the picture. And the family is a sort of study in genetics, but that is beside the point.

The point I would make is that Mike's first wife left him. He caught her cheating, there was a fight, and for over a year he slept on the couch, with the relationship going no where. She had seen an attorney and the attorney said: don't go. The law is about to be changed and you can get half of his pension if you are willing to wait till next year. This was a hard working guy who busted ess and because of a good personality had some decent jobs, had saved his money, and done everything right. So he lost his house to save his pension and he harbored a great grudge against the mother of his children. But this guy was a Christian. And he was never able to find any inner peace until he began to pray for the very person who had cleaned him out and cheated on him.

There is a contradiction that must be resolved in our minds before we ask God to help those who have hurt us. It is like Jesus saying if you want your sacrifice accepted, first make peace with those you are angry with. It is emotionally impossible to honestly ask God to help one you hate, Either you must hang onto your hate, and do not ask God for anything, or you throw you hate on the fire and ask God on their behalf for good. And I know that is a painful pill to swallow for many Christians, but it reaches the same end as going to a shrink, and talking it our. The object is resolution, acceptance. There is nothing any of us can do to change the past, but hate is like glue that keeps the past stuck to us while we drag it around to the point of our moral exhaustion. We do not forgive because others deserve it. We forgive to know peace, and that peace comes when we realize we have the strength to move forward with our lives.

This is all very well, and some victims do make the kind of adjustment you talk about and get past this awful trauma later in their adult lives. Many do not. Some end up committing suicide and some become abusers themselves. Lives are destroyed or, at least, severely damaged.

I find it interesting that you concentrate on the victims and how they should cope and yet you say nothing about the perpetrator and his accomplices. These are supposed to be men of God! Yet you seem to be putting the onus on their victims to heal themselves. I submit that some of that healing cannot occur until justice is done and seen to be done. Only then can there be closure of some kind.

Meanwhile an omnipotent God, as ever, continues to do nothing. We are supposed to just have faith that justice will prevail in an alleged afterlife. Some of us lack that faith. As they say, justice delayed is justice denied.

I think they are terrible, and I think one of the reason religion has the support it does is that it is a victim's religion. I was once in very close contact with a priest who turned out to be a pedophile. He was busted with a girl, but I saw him up close and personal once when he taught a catechism class when I was in the first grade.One of the boys had forgotten to chuck his gum when he came in, and when the priest noticed, he came entirely unglued. Lesson over. New lesson.This guy had a deep booming voice, and male pattern baldness, and he wasn't much of anything, maybe five seven, but broad shouldered, and powerfully built.He started to scream at this kid about chewing gum while he was teaching the word of God, and the kid, John Gill got up, took a couple of steps and threw the gum away.Bad move.Did I tell you to do that? Yelled the priest. Get that gum, he ordered. And when the boy couldn't find the gum fast enough, he found it himself. I had a seat almost directly across from John, and that was like a ring side seat to a bear attack.He gave John the gum, and ordered him to stick it on his nose, but the gum was pretty tired, and John was sweating sheets of that fear sweat, and he wasn't alone. So the gum didn't stick. And so the priest grabbed the gum and about pushed the kid's nose off trying to get the hard gum to stick on John's nose, and then finally gave up in frustration.Well that is about all I remember from that day.

I will be happy to reject the power of God as a reality, and also reject all positions of authority over people that are not strictly monitored.The worst sort of people seek these positions of power because they have no personal charisma. They need to represent, and feed off forms like Church or Government, and without those forms they would be nothing or less than nothing.

I have no belief in God as God is presented. Sure; such a God is a feel good God. In this age of individualism people need God more than ever because we all suffer from the disease of loneliness. And since the Church is primarily responsible for the theory and philosophy of the individual I think it very likely that they are aware of the effect of loneliness on faith. Still, lonely people go to church to commune with God, and if they do not find God, they at least find each other; what they call a community of Christ. And I do not accept that this is an example of God working in mysterious ways.I think there is no evidence at all that God is working, and every evidence that the people are themselves responsible for the effort and results.

Even where God is present as an ideal of perfection, as perfect Goodness, It is still the people in need of recovery who heal themselves. They take time to think. They lay their troubles on this table called God. They arrange and re-arrange these troubles in this way or that until they make better sense if not perfect sense. And when that resolution results in forgiveness, that can be both bad and good. It is always good, where possible, for people to forgive because not doing so demands an impossible burden to carry. People should never forgive a crime in progress; but fight it. People should never accept the sort of church complacency that in the past has allowed parishes to juggle their problem children, and spread victims far and wide.

Those who accept, as so many do, that their priests can do not wrong are way too common, and they are idiots. There is a joke that fully expresses the hypocrisy of my fellow Catholics: Two women lived across from a house of prostitution, and would comment back and forth on the character of the customers. One day, seeing Baptist minister come out, the first woman said: Just like I told you; those Baptists are all bums. A little later, a Catholic priest walked out. The second woman turned to the other, and said: There must be some one sick in there.

Humanity is most often the cause and the cure for what troubles us. To forgive others does not deny us the responsibility to act against injustice and injury. It is simply the best short term personal solution. I do not have to know if God exists. I don't need to know why God does or does not do according to human needs and demands. My ability to forgive the wrong done to me is part and parcel of my ability to forgive myself the wrongs I have done to others, -and resolve to no longer do. Just as the theory of the individual helped to establish Western Law, it also helped to break the cycle of feud violence. Sin too, is a cycle of behavior. What we cannot free ourselves of by reconciliation with our communities we are most certainly doomed to repeat. People feel the need to justify what they do, even when their actions cannot be justified in this life or the next. If they injure others, and to injure, -to have power over others and injure them is an act of self assertion, as all sin is, but the act of reconciliation does not justify what all people do, but justifies what God does, just by being an ideal. We can always justify ourselves, and this usually means doing exactly as we once did. This allows for no personal growth. The growth, for the individual is acceptance which usually means forgiveness. And for the sinner, growth means coming to terms with the sin, putting the past in its place, and resolving to do good.

I think if priests believed in their faith they would understand that their sacrifice, the rites they perform, will not be accepted so long as they remain unforgiven, and have not made things right with their brothers and sisters and all of humanity. What is obvious from history is that those most often charged with preaching the word were seldom ever able to live by it. Without God obviously in the picture, only the raw power of human authority attracts people to the hierarchy. This is not a new problem, but a problem that has plagued the church from the middle ages. Power draws flies.

At least some of these 57 boys would have told God. They must have prayed for deliverance from the horror. As usual, God did nothing. Why?

Not at all. Firstly, we were supposedly created in the image of God, so whatever traits we exhibit (such as logic and a sense of justice) must derive from God. Secondly, this is just a variation of "God works in mysterious ways". Whenever Christians are stumped by a question, this is what they resort to. I'm sorry, but the evidence is that God doesn't work in any way at all, mysterious or otherwise. He seems to be in a permanent witness protection scheme.

This is all very well, and some victims do make the kind of adjustment you talk about and get past this awful trauma later in their adult lives. Many do not. Some end up committing suicide and some become abusers themselves. Lives are destroyed or, at least, severely damaged.

I find it interesting that you concentrate on the victims and how they should cope and yet you say nothing about the perpetrator and his accomplices. These are supposed to be men of God! Yet you seem to be putting the onus on their victims to heal themselves. I submit that some of that healing cannot occur until justice is done and seen to be done. Only then can there be closure of some kind.

Meanwhile an omnipotent God, as ever, continues to do nothing. We are supposed to just have faith that justice will prevail in an alleged afterlife. Some of us lack that faith. As they say, justice delayed is justice denied.

I think they are terrible, and I think one of the reason religion has the support it does is that it is a victim's religion. I was once in very close contact with a priest who turned out to be a pedophile. He was busted with a girl, but I saw him up close and personal once when he taught a catechism class when I was in the first grade.One of the boys had forgotten to chuck his gum when he came in, and when the priest noticed, he came entirely unglued. Lesson over. New lesson.This guy had a deep booming voice, and male pattern baldness, and he wasn't much of anything, maybe five seven, but broad shouldered, and powerfully built.He started to scream at this kid about chewing gum while he was teaching the word of God, and the kid, John Gill got up, took a couple of steps and threw the gum away.Bad move.Did I tell you to do that? Yelled the priest. Get that gum, he ordered. And when the boy couldn't find the gum fast enough, he found it himself. I had a seat almost directly across from John, and that was like a ring side seat to a bear attack.He gave John the gum, and ordered him to stick it on his nose, but the gum was pretty tired, and John was sweating sheets of that fear sweat, and he wasn't alone. So the gum didn't stick. And so the priest grabbed the gum and about pushed the kid's nose off trying to get the hard gum to stick on John's nose, and then fina

An interesting story. I was educated in the public system and we had a few hard cases, but your experience gels with the authoritarian mindset I have heard about in religious schools. Religions want obedient slaves and any rebellion, no matter how slight or inadvertent, is taken as a direct challenge to that authority. It can't be tolerated, hence the almost psychopathic response.

"Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you".
"I am being absurd, but no way is it trolling". [paraphrased]
--- dsjpk5

Just look at the penguin in the blues brothers movie, That was about 90% of the less than ten nuns I had as teachers. They knew how to use a ruler. But as may be part of a line from that movie, they gave us a good education and a bad attitude. They at least recognized my intelligence even if they did not know how to educate me up to my ability. I suppose I am a little autistic and a little dyslexic, and I have terrible verbal comprehension. My parents did not get me at all, but at least the nuns tried; and it is not as though they were bad people. I am certain much of their frustrated sexuality was taken out on us, but after I left, and before they closed the convent as they called it, some of the boys were wacking off in front of the girls right in class, and in the eighth grade, some kid drove spikes up through the mother superiors chair. And this was a tough old broad, about five foot nothing tall, and three feet wide who didn't take no crap off of any of us; but she had been dealing with too many of us for too many years in that tough neighborhood I called home, and she just looked at those nails and broke down sobbing in front of all those roughnecks. She was done. They had done everything but tie her to a stake and torch her with gasoline, and her authority was gone.

I may seem cynical, but I have stopped caring why people are good when they are good and only celebrate their goodness. I know many of them do not really think about the religion they are handed as children, but because it is part of their identity, and a part of their culture they see any attack on it as an attack on them. I do not want to rob anyone of their religion. All I want to do is rob religions of their privilege.If I tend to believe in a God it is not because I can prove or disprove a God; but cause and effect is the idea behind all science, and if you look for a cause for all we see as effect, there must be a cause, what people call a first cause. If this is fact, this fact gets me no closer to a definition of God than if I had never considered the problem.

If most people do not understand their God, but make their God serve them even when they say they are serving God, and some times confuse their morality with their religion, that alone does not make them bad. Clearly the problem has always been those who get their faith and their material conditions in the best possible fashion, and simply do not believe a part of it, and feel entitled by their higher intelligence to make use of lesser humanity is if playthings. The immorality of the church was a recurring problem throughout the middle ages. Clerics could escape almost any charge simply be reading a passage from the Bible. Only with competition did the Catholics clean up their act, and it was not because people were not well away of church immorality. The church simply had as much politics as any organization ever will. Reason and education do not make people more moral.

I object to the smallness of God. We have ceased to believe we are at the center of the universe, but continue to believe we are the apple of God's eye. I rather look at the firmament, at the word for what it means in Greek, the result of power, and ask why should such power care for me, for you, or for us. I will not make myself larger trying to define God, and I won't make God small enough to fit my definition. Even existence as a term cannot fit God, but the term must fit within any possible conception of God. From my reading I understand that what we think of in the trinity as persons is incorrect to the Greek N T, which has the Latin personas as "somethings" and so, as yet impossible to define. I am afraid most people do not want a God so much as a supernatural friend who can make the fact of death and human evil disappear.

Just look at the penguin in the blues brothers movie, That was about 90% of the less than ten nuns I had as teachers. They knew how to use a ruler. But as may be part of a line from that movie, they gave us a good education and a bad attitude. They at least recognized my intelligence even if they did not know how to educate me up to my ability. I suppose I am a little autistic and a little dyslexic, and I have terrible verbal comprehension. My parents did not get me at all, but at least the nuns tried; and it is not as though they were bad people. I am certain much of their frustrated sexuality was taken out on us, but after I left, and before they closed the convent as they called it, some of the boys were wacking off in front of the girls right in class, and in the eighth grade, some kid drove spikes up through the mother superiors chair. And this was a tough old broad, about five foot nothing tall, and three feet wide who didn't take no crap off of any of us; but she had been dealing with too many of us for too many years in that tough neighborhood I called home, and she just looked at those nails and broke down sobbing in front of all those roughnecks. She was done. They had done everything but tie her to a stake and torch her with gasoline, and her authority was gone.

I may seem cynical, but I have stopped caring why people are good when they are good and only celebrate their goodness. I know many of them do not really think about the religion they are handed as children, but because it is part of their identity, and a part of their culture they see any attack on it as an attack on them. I do not want to rob anyone of their religion. All I want to do is rob religions of their privilege.If I tend to believe in a God it is not because I can prove or disprove a God; but cause and effect is the idea behind all science, and if you look for a cause for all we see as effect, there must be a cause, what people call a first cause. If this is fact, this fact gets me no closer to a definition of God than if I had never considered the problem.

If most people do not understand their God, but make their God serve them even when they say they are serving God, and some times confuse their morality with their religion, that alone does not make them bad. Clearly the problem has always been those who get their faith and their material conditions in the best possible fashion, and simply do not believe a part of it, and feel entitled by their higher intelligence to make use of lesser humanity is if playthings. The immorality of the church was a recurring problem throughout the middle ages. Clerics could escape almost any charge simply be reading a passage from the Bible. Only with competition did the Catholics clean up their act, and it was not because people were not well away of church immorality. The church simply had as much politics as any organization ever will. Reason and education do not make people more moral.

I object to the smallness of God. We have ceased to believe we are at the center of the universe, but continue to believe we are the apple of God's eye. I rather look at the firmament, at the word for what it means in Greek, the result of power, and ask why should such power care for me, for you, or for us. I will not make myself larger trying to define God, and I won't make God small enough to fit my definition. Even existence as a term cannot fit God, but the term must fit within any possible conception of God. From my reading I understand that what we think of in the trinity as persons is incorrect to the Greek N T, which has the Latin personas as "somethings" and so, as yet impossible to define. I am afraid most people do not want a God so much as a supernatural friend who can make the fact of death and human evil disappear.

You are a welcome addition to this forum. Keep posting, as I enjoy your quirky take on things. Unlike many here I took the time to read your long posts and you have an interesting philosophy plus a gift for a catchy phrase. Their loss.

"Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you".
"I am being absurd, but no way is it trolling". [paraphrased]
--- dsjpk5

At 1/23/2015 6:06:31 AM, Classified wrote:For me, I don't just pray for nothing...

I want to have a relationship with my Creator so that I could get to know him better. When I'm afraid, I pray to God but I also pray when I need something or just to tell Him I adore him or just to praise and worship him.

You're a deluded and frankly border line mentally ill. You do realize that the OP is about molested children right? When these kids are being raped and trying to find understanding and meaning in the context of a theistic world view all you have to say is pray and worship? Seriously, get help.

"The annoying kid has a point. Let's revolt in this bitch!" - The Boondocks

Kinsley an atheist biologist watched young children masturbate and other stuff.

If there is a system in place that has adults speeding long time alone with children and the children are in a position to obey the adult then sexual crimes will occur. This doesn't matter if it is theist or atheist. It is a crime of opportunity.

Not only opportunity but I would also put some of the causation on the sexual messages that the public sends out.

Is rape of young children bad? absolutely. Can we get past the what religion are the perpetrators and focus on the prevention? I hope so.

A sexual revolution and freedom of sexual preference and expression tho cathartic for some ends in temptation for others.

Did anyone, including me, say that? unfortunately God chooses to do nothing there either, but you might expect he would be greatly concerned about his representatives on Earth damaging the brand. I'm being flippant, of course. There is a serious point there though about moral obligation. Is it wrong to expect greater adherence to a moral code from those who claim ownership for the basis of morality? I would have thought so.

There is another point too. It's not just about the deeds, as hideous as they are. It's also about the institutionalized cover-ups. The church and its officials have done this all around the world, in Ireland, in Australia, in the US, in Germany, in South America, everywhere. There is no question of isolated instances of atrocious behaviour. It has been a systematic response of denial and secrecy almost without exception. You will rarely find examples like this in secular institutions such as public schools.

So people do bad things and sometimes the system is blind eye to the injustice. Like rape is a crime only committed by men.

You are better than this. You don't diminish one crime by comparing it to others.

It's not relevant, but how many nun pedophile cases can you cite?

And now you want to tack on that rape of children is only committed by theist men? If not then why the judging eye towards the theist.

You are arguing against a non-articulated argument.

This has nothing to do with God's existence. It has everything to do with the sick perverted world we live in. Do you think raping children is a part of christian doctrine? That it is a tenet.

No, but if it is a sin, which it surely must be according to theists, how could a man of God contemplate, let alone actually perform such a ghastly deed? How can an omnipotent God being prayed to desperately by these bewildered and traumatized children just sit back and ignore them? Can you explain it?

You can see atheist actually encouraging and sometimes advocating pedophilia and gay relationships between boys and old men.

Kinsley an atheist biologist watched young children masturbate and other stuff.

Oh, please be serious. From your own link:

Nevertheless, opponents of gay rights often cite NAMBLA as an example of the homosexual agenda to groom children for sexual abuse. This is really an association fallacy, since other gay rights groups do not promote "man/boy love" and the gay community almost unanimously condemns NAMBLA and its aims.

During the organization's early history (in the late 1970s and early 80s), NAMBLA received some support from a few LGBT groups, but vehement opposition from many others who were understandably concerned to keep homosexuality, which was becoming increasingly tolerated and accepted in the USA, from being associated with pedophilia.[2] NAMBLA quickly became a pariah within the gay community, and most gay rights groups now ban them from showing up at their rallies.|While NAMBLA is a real group, it has become the brunt of jokes, as well as a target frequently named in the context of moral panics over a purported child sexual abuse epidemic. This is so much so that most NAMBLA sightings these days may be parodists, and NAMBLA's membership, to the extent they still have one, is probably similar to the Communist Party USA's membership in the 1950s: mostly police infiltrators.

When you cite 'evidence' like this, you come across as extremely desperate and foolish.

If there is a system in place that has adults speeding long time alone with children and the children are in a position to obey the adult then sexual crimes will occur. This doesn't matter if it is theist or atheist. It is a crime of opportunity.

Agreed, but see above. Children do not pray to a Headmaster in the sky for deliverance from a pedophile teacher. We are talking about God and his apparent indifference to suffering.

Not only opportunity but I would also put some of the causation on the sexual messages that the public sends out.

Sure, it's the fault of the victims - the little children. Sheesh, what century do you think you are living in?

Is rape of young children bad? absolutely. Can we get past the what religion are the perpetrators and focus on the prevention? I hope so.

Yes, we can force reform on the recalcitrant churches and it is long overdue. The question is, why does the ultimate authority, God, choose to do nothing when these abominable acts do inevitably occur? Why are prayers cruelly ignored?

A sexual revolution and freedom of sexual preference and expression tho cathartic for some ends in temptation for others.

BS. This has nothing to do with the sexual revolution. Abuse of little children at the hands of priests has been occurring for centuries. If anything, it is about sexual repression.

"Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you".
"I am being absurd, but no way is it trolling". [paraphrased]
--- dsjpk5

At 1/23/2015 6:06:31 AM, Classified wrote:For me, I don't just pray for nothing...

I want to have a relationship with my Creator so that I could get to know him better. When I'm afraid, I pray to God but I also pray when I need something or just to tell Him I adore him or just to praise and worship him.

You're a deluded and frankly border line mentally ill. You do realize that the OP is about molested children right? When these kids are being raped and trying to find understanding and meaning in the context of a theistic world view all you have to say is pray and worship? Seriously, get help.

I posted that because of the second post, the thread topic when I saw it, and also because I wanted to add my feelings...

At 1/23/2015 6:06:31 AM, Classified wrote:For me, I don't just pray for nothing...

I want to have a relationship with my Creator so that I could get to know him better. When I'm afraid, I pray to God but I also pray when I need something or just to tell Him I adore him or just to praise and worship him.

You're a deluded and frankly border line mentally ill. You do realize that the OP is about molested children right? When these kids are being raped and trying to find understanding and meaning in the context of a theistic world view all you have to say is pray and worship? Seriously, get help.

I posted that because of the second post, the thread topic when I saw it, and also because I wanted to add my feelings...

Of course. And I criticize your feelings. What do you think the feelings where/are of children raped by members of the clergy?

Those children can't simply pray. When they are afraid they receive nothing but more pain from the authority who claims to know God. Worship and pray .. worship and pray. Worship and pray to WHO? Your God? The one who allows it's voice to rape children?

This is why I think you're a fool. I criticize your beliefs and your retort is "I wanted to add my feelings". Your feelings are ignorant BS. Children are being raped by religious authorities and you say to worship religion. Please listen others in this forum, at the very least, who disagree with your irreverent theistic attitude.

"The annoying kid has a point. Let's revolt in this bitch!" - The Boondocks

Did anyone, including me, say that? Unfortunately God chooses to do nothing there either, but you might expect he would be greatly concerned about his representatives on Earth damaging the brand. I'm being flippant, of course. There is a serious point there though about moral obligation. Is it wrong to expect greater adherence to a moral code from those who claim ownership for the basis of morality? I would have thought so.

There is another point too. It's not just about the deeds, as hideous as they are. It's also about the institutionalized cover-ups. The church and its officials have done this all around the world, in Ireland, in Australia, in the US, in Germany, in South America, everywhere. There is no question of isolated instances of atrocious behaviour. It has been a systematic response of denial and secrecy almost without exception. You will rarely find examples like this in secular institutions such as public schools.

So people do bad things and sometimes the system is blind eye to the injustice. Like rape is a crime only committed by men.

You are better than this. You don't diminish one crime by comparing it to others.

It's not relevant, but how many nun pedophile cases can you cite?

And now you want to tack on that rape of children is only committed by theist men? If not then why the judging eye towards the theist.

You are arguing against a non-articulated argument.

This has nothing to do with God's existence. It has everything to do with the sick perverted world we live in. Do you think raping children is a part of Christian doctrine? That it is a tenet.

No, but if it is a sin, which it surely must be according to theists, how could a man of God contemplate, let alone actually perform such a ghastly deed? How can an omnipotent God being prayed to desperately by these bewildered and traumatized children just sit back and ignore them? Can you explain it?

You can see atheist actually encouraging and sometimes advocating pedophilia and gay relationships between boys and old men.

Kinsley an atheist biologist watched young children masturbate and other stuff.

Oh, please be serious. From your own link:

Nevertheless, opponents of gay rights often cite NAMBLA as an example of the homosexual agenda to groom children for sexual abuse. This is really an association fallacy, since other gay rights groups do not promote "man/boy love" and the gay community almost unanimously condemns NAMBLA and its aims.

During the organization's early history (in the late 1970s and early 80s), NAMBLA received some support from a few LGBT groups, but vehement opposition from many others who were understandably concerned to keep homosexuality, which was becoming increasingly tolerated and accepted in the USA, from being associated with pedophilia.[2] NAMBLA quickly became a pariah within the gay community, and most gay rights groups now ban them from showing up at their rallies.|While NAMBLA is a real group, it has become the brunt of jokes, as well as a target frequently named in the context of moral panics over a purported child sexual abuse epidemic. This is so much so that most NAMBLA sightings these days may be parodists, and NAMBLA's membership, to the extent they still have one, is probably similar to the Communist Party USA's membership in the 1950s: mostly police infiltrators.

When you cite 'evidence' like this, you come across as extremely desperate and foolish.

If there is a system in place that has adults speeding long time alone with children and the children are in a position to obey the adult then sexual crimes will occur. This doesn't matter if it is theist or atheist. It is a crime of opportunity.

Agreed, but see above. Children do not pray to a Headmaster in the sky for deliverance from a pedophile teacher. We are talking about God and his apparent indifference to suffering.

Not only opportunity but I would also put some of the causation on the sexual messages that the public sends out.

Sure, it's the fault of the victims - the little children. Sheesh, what century do you think you are living in?

Is rape of young children bad? Absolutely. Can we get past the what religion are the perpetrators and focus on the prevention? I hope so.

Yes, we can force reform on the recalcitrant churches and it is long overdue. The question is, why does the ultimate authority, God, choose to do nothing when these abominable acts do inevitably occur? Why are prayers cruelly ignored?

A sexual revolution and freedom of sexual preference and expression tho cathartic for some ends in temptation for others.

BS. This has nothing to do with the sexual revolution. Abuse of little children at the hands of priests has been occurring for centuries. If anything, it is about sexual repression.

There is no reason to believe we have not found the garden. What we have lost is the ability to have peace in it.. I expect nothing from God. The evidence points to the distance of God rather that his personal involvement. It proves nothing that people pray and nothing happens. It is obvious God is not that kind of God, but I say this without proof. Tomorrow God might decide to show up for work; or not. It means nothing either way. We used to sing a song in church: God hears the cry of the poor. It must be music to his ears. Those who pray hardest for the help of God have the greatest reason for disappointment. Do you think they are disappointed? They hedge their bet with a prayer for acceptance. Only they can give their acceptance, and so, if God gets the credit, who cares as long as they can accept. The only problem is, when justice is not done, and future crime is not averted because people accept too soon. You can always forgive who ever you may choose; but I would not forgive anyone without them asking for it.