So the general vibe of KOTOR that I got was upbeat, fun, heroism wins over evil, the guy gets the girl (sorta) and saves the galaxy. When I played TSL I felt sort of depressed and almost felt forced to play (some parts of) the game. I know that the two games share drastically polar opposite themes/views but what I want to know is how did you feel when playing TSL after finishing the first KOTOR?

On my first playthrough, I was more confused than anything else. Between the cut content and my own impatience, I missed out on pretty much the entire meat of the plot by skipping through or just plain avoiding dialogue. When I reached the end of the game and it stopped so abruptly, I was pretty pissed off. I didn't play the game for almost a year after I first got it, because I really and honestly felt it was a ****ty game.

Then a friend urged me to try playing the game again and put more effort into pursuing dialogue. I humoured him, and was pleasantly surprised to have a good number of the questions I had from my first playthrough answered, usually by Kreia or G0-T0. I also found that the game felt more complete when played as a female character, though I could just feel that way because my first playthrough was male and, as I mentioned, that was a terrible experience. Now, with the all-but-entirely-completed TSLRP (or even the slightly less extensive but still quite helpful) TSLRCM, the game feels much more cohesive and intelligent instead of rushed and tossed together. The plot is still very much dialogue based, however, far more so than its predecessor.

As for the emotional feel, I definitely agree that it was much darker and more vague about the lines of good and evil (when it comes to the bigger picture, anyway; the dark and light options for your PC couldn't be more blatant). With the first game, my desire to play came from the action and characters themselves. In the second, I find I'm compelled to play more out of a desire to hear or learn something I haven't in a previous playthrough. This despite the fact that I've played it countless times now; I still hope to see or hear something new every time I play.

I will agree that in more recent playthroughs, both Peragus and Telos are a massive drag. I can take as long as a week to play through them, in only - at the absolute most - eight to ten hours of gameplay. I just can't put myself through them for too long in one go.

My opinion of TSL is that it makes me very angry and frustrated. Not only was it a rush job where half the game ended up on the cutting room floor and the end result looked the part, but it felt pointless.

Save or kill the Jedi Masters? Doesn't matter, they die anyway. Nar Shadaa is, and always will be, a crap-sack. Korriban was too short to be much fun. Dantooine was a sucker punch if you've played the first, as it systematically goes out of its way to take a gigantic whiz all over all you did in Knights 1 and then rub your nose in it.

It was great to see T3-M4 take a few levels in toughness, and while HK-47 was his usual misanthropic self, he seemed...off...somehow. And Canderous...it's like he learned nothing from his time cracking heads for Davik. Swaggering, boastful, unrepentant, going back to burning worlds for sport when he said in the first game that his people needed a new direction...The only way I was able to buy it was that he was delivering my DSM Exile exactly the Mandalorian stereotype he'd been expecting. ("You aren't Revan. Why am I wasting my time with you?")

The rest of my party sniped and squabbled for my Exile's attention and affections like courtiers around a king. The icing on the cake was finding out that you'd put some kind of Force compulsion on them, wittingly or not. I was less concerned with being able to get their stories and more interested in manipulating them. And after you unlocked their Force potential, they had nothing further to say or do with you. I really missed Mission Vao or a character like her. Mission was so sunny and sweet that it counterbalanced a lot of the dark stuff. I missed Jolee with his smart-ass remarks and wise insight. Here, no such luck.

So, I end up with a quest that doesn't matter, a crew I don't like very much, planets and people that hate you no matter what you do, and a gigantic mess of an ending. The only way I tolerate playing it is on the Dark Side. If you're going to be treated as a monster, and if the whole thing is pointless, you might as well reap the benefits.

I guess my oppinion is almost the complete opposite of Allronix', I found the first to be a perfection of the SW formula, a cheery romp through a universe where everyone is either a saint or satan. Mission in particular frustrated me, as her being part of the crew didn't make much sence, since when does a street urchin make a good super-soldier? In short, while I enjoyed the first, I never cared much for my companions, or the mission, and my brain was forced to give up any thought about immersion. Sure, the mood was cheery, but in a "standard" feelgod movie way.

Which is why TSL blew me away, I came expecting another SW game, and instead got the result of someone looking at the SW universe and wanting to push the limitations it puts on a game to the limits. A villain who wants to destroy the force with good reason. A crew that in adition to being believably capable of kicking ass, was deep enough that I actually cared about how they thought. A universe that utilized it's bleak setting to make it more believable and interesting. A main quest that I actually cared about because, while the universe was technically at stake, it was the development of the PC that was the focus.

And just to answer some of Allronix' points.

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but it felt pointless

Each to their own I guess, K1 was about the saving/destruction of the universe by the PC, K2 was about the PC him/herself. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on which is more meaningfull.

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Save or kill the Jedi Masters? Doesn't matter, they die anyway

Sure, but how you dealt with them mattered for who the exile was, and the meeting becomes rather diferent depending on what you choose. In that way Taris was worse in K1, what you did there had absolutely no effect.

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Dantooine was a sucker punch

IIRC: Dantooine was screwed in K1, I don't see how K2 ruined it by giving an interpretation of what happened next.

For the rest, I'm pretty sure we'll have to agree to disagree, as we seem to want and expect completeley different things from our games.

The philosophy angle was its only redeeming feature. I've said in other places that Kreia, as much as I disliked her, probably had the right idea about the Force being uncaring and cruel. Atton, as much as I wanted to give him 200 credits and leave him in the Red Sector of Nar Shadaa, had a scathingly brutal grain of truth in his rant about "men and women, arguing over religion while the galaxy burns."

It had the side effect of an Alan Moore and Grant Morrison binge. Beautifully miserable illustration of how truly screwed up the situation was, brilliant deconstruction of everything that you thought was cool about said universe, saying a lot of things that probably needed to get said...

But in the end? You're left looking over your stacks of Silver Age comics and you can't un-see Rorschach and Ozymandias.

God knows I don't mind the occasional dark piece (Blake's 7, the aforementioned Alan Moore comics), but it's a measure of the pretentious to say only the bleak stuff has merit. KOTOR was what convinced me to give the GFFA another chance after being disgusted by Attack of the Clones. KOTOR 2 almost proved that it didn't merit the second chance after all.

I remember being vastly unimpressed at first. I lie. At the very first I was so happy for finally having my hands on KotOR II (although the waiting was far from big) that I played it from dusk to dawn and I couldn't really tell the difference between what I had in my hands and K1. And it was awesome, as much as it felt like a K1 expansion pack, it was exactly what I wanted. Next few days came and I was mesmerized by Atton's remarks and Kreia's quotes. Everything nice and eerie (Peragus was somehow spooky the first time you play it, although it completely loses the magic on the next playthroughs. As I've said once, it would be nice in another kind of game, not in one you're supposed to play several times. That's why it feels like such a drag. As for Telos, well, Telos was just poorly done), with a creepy Sith Lord aboard a ship with invisible Sith assassins, dead bodies, malfunctioning droids and whatnot. I t even had a hand severing. I was having a blast.

Then Telos came. Jesus, I was stuck on the Citadel for hours, running uninteristing errands, meeting bland characters and trying to solve broken quests - though I didn't know that at the time ("Batono" still haunts me to this day). Okay, the surface was a little better and once I hit the Polar Regin things began to look better. Imprisonment, more silver HKs, ok, I felt in peril once again. Good. Oh, and I can use the Ebon Hawk now? Amazing, I was ready to explore the Galaxy Map as I did on the first game.

But there were no real good planets as I'd find out later.

I started with Dantooine and I was enjoying the dejà-vu with a little change here and there. Salvagers, Khoonda and a Civil War to spice things up. The whole feeling began to crumble as I noticed this Dantooine was smaller than the first. And what's worse, smaller and most of the areas were not even new to begin with. If I recall correctly I left Dantooine before completing the quest there. Vrook wouldn't die from old age anyway.

Then I hit Nar Shaddaa, possbly the biggest disappointment, only second to the completely maimed/cloned Korriban. The way Atton talked about it, it sounded like K2's Taris. Oh, what amazing memories I had of Taris. That's what Telos should have been like. I mean, Telos AND Peragus. Okay, it was darker and grittier, and people on the street begged me for money, not unlike Taris Undercity. Expected. But the vibrant life I felt whenever I was on the Upper City of Taris I never saw anywhere in Nar Shaddaa. And that frustrated me a lot. It was like the game wasn't even trying to bring the worldwide city to life. Tattoine had a lot more going on than Nar Shaddaa, or so I thought. I guess I got into that Quarren's hideout, found Zez and welcomed Mira aboard then left for good.

Then there was Onderon. Blockade, yeah. I heard some Onderonian soldier talking about it back in Telos so, nice, there was some immersion to the game. I'm then forced to attempt a landing on the wilderness of Dxun - probably one of the best places on the entire game, which, ironically, isn't even a planet. Meeting the mandalorians was nice, but yet another dejà-vu was better: Mandalore, from clan Ordo made my day. When I heard I was going to the "massive" city of Iziz, I felt uneasy: massive, right. That's what they said about Nar Shaddaa and look at what happened.

I couldn't be more right. Iziz (and thus Onderon) was not much more than four modules (out of which two where the cramped landing pad and the lacking spaceport) and the Royal Palace, which ends up being much more interesting than the rest of the planet. The fact it was so small didn't bothered me, actually. KotOR, after all, didn't have many bigger planets. What did grind my gears was the fact that it didn't have enough interesting characters to fill those areas. As always, I felt like I was exploring a ghost town, not a thriving city. I'll admit I had some fun trying to find my way out of the planet but it mostly boring. By that time I was almost decided that K1 was by far better.

So next on line was Korriban. And we all know how bad it sucked. After I was finally done with the Hidden Tomb (I recall thinking at the time it was bad deal to change all of the tombs on the Valley for that one) I was very frustrated at the developers, God and humanity. What had they done to my beloved game?

And that feeling stuck when I went through Dantooine again, Dxun and Onderon one last time (the last good bit in the game) and the Ravager. By the time I arrived at Malachor, the game was playing itself. My character was a level 30ish Jedi Guardian Watchman who didn't even needed to heal anymore. And I didn't care. End.

Game stayed on the shelf while I replayed KotOR I to feel better. Meanwhile, I learned how badly the game was cut and I started reading tidbits of the story. I decided that it was mostly interesting and that I had somehow missed good parts of it. Then I played it again, and again and again and I never liked it as much as the first game but I didn't hate it anymore. I played it so much that it had grown in me, the story made sense I was convinced it could be a hell of a game if it was completed. Not as good as the first but still good. So, I still need to play the restoration mod to decide. Hell, why not now?

I originally felt it was much too short when I first played it. Also, the artwork in the game was a bit uneven. Still, it was a more complex story and you could level up higher and acquire more powers than in K1. It was less than really satisfying, but not so bad that I didn't waste time on many a subsequent playthrough.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

In my first playthrough i felt a bit... bored.
There was nothing "cool", "exciting" going on, it felt like i was going through the motions, because the game forced me down that path and not because i wanted or cared about the story and the characters, i coudn't connect with the story at all.

I kept waiting for the game to kick it up a notch, thinking, the next planet will be better (Onderon/Dxun was better), more exciting, but it just never happened.

And the ending pffff... Good God does this thing never ends, please make it stop!!!!!!

Oh and the story, the whole kill the force thing, was the most unstarwarsy story in the EU, beating NJO, since i was way more of a Star Wars fan, then RPG fan, it kinda pissed me off.

After a while i learned to appreciate TSL quite a bit, pay atention to the story, but still think they should have added more cool stuff to do in the middle part of the game, and the ending in just undefendable.

I love The Sith Lords, it is in fact my favourite computer game, yes it is an incomplete work, with cut content galore, unfinished and lacking polish, but despite all this I love it. Let me take you through my play-through, firstly it must be said that I played KotOR 2 before I played KotOR and much as I love the first game I prefer the second.

My first impression of Peragus, was that it was playing a bit like a survival horror, which given I like Zombie games and films, didn't bother me at all. Was a somewhat strange atmosphere, my general thoughts of the level was what an earth is going on?

Then Sion arrived... I remember thinking, crap, how am I gonna fight this dude, he's a walking corpse and I don't even have a lightsaber. I actually really did like Peragus and the Harbinger as a level, the problem is, a lack of re-play value due to their being so few characters to interact with. Ultimately I think a top secret research centre with a mad scientist, would of allowed for a similar atmopshere, but for character interaction. Anyways having escaped Sion, Peragus and the Harbinger (which very much reminded me of Event Horizon, again not a bad thing IMO), came far more detailed conversations with Kreia...

For me Kreia is the best video game character I've come across, she is of course nuts, and I don't think destroying the force is even possible. But in terms of layers, what she says, what her truths and lies are, she is an interesting study, and gives interest philosophies against the player on either the light or Dark path. For me Kreia is one of the best parts of this game, though I know some hate her. I think Atton is also a very good character, of the newly introduced characters both Kriea and Atton are done superbly, unfortunately there is not as much depth to the other new NPC's.

I'm sort of Neutral on Telos Space Station, I think they could of been a lot more inventive with it, and it could really of done with cool command centre for Grenn and the rest of those in charge, overlooking Telos would have been very cool.

I did however really like Telos surface, I thought it intriguing, with a great coast-line and the military base; capped of by the Polar Plateaux all in my opinion making it well worth the visit!

The first planet I headed too was Dantooine, from all I had heard in game, made the most sense to look for Jedi there, I liked Dantooine, with the sub-themes, and I liked it even more after playing KotOR, the civil war was good, but is much improved in size and scope by the RCM. I have always disliked Vrook, he's an ass! Anyways having finished there and enjoyed it I headed to Onderon and Dxun.

I think Onderon and Dxun are my favourite places in the whole of TSL, very different, one a jungle apparently empty and the other a city. Both very different and the return to the planet I think is the best part of the game, the simultaneous mission is excellent IMO!

Nar Shaddaa is decent, and really gets going once the Exiles enters the JekJek Tar, combined with Goto's ship I think once you get to the "meat" so to speak that it is a good planet. Korriban, empty and desolate I liked, though I was disappointed at Vash being dead.

The return to Dantooine I thought was brilliant and Kreia's intervention and speech to the council is fantastic. The Jedi Masters are cowards, and I think that proven in their actions there (this is obviously on a lightside playthrough). The vanilla game then goes somewhat astray, but I think the battle for Telos is decent, and I enjoyed the Ravager, in the Restored Content the game is alot more what should be and I enjoyed Malachor alot especially with the way the droid factory and things played out there.

All in all I really enjoyed TSL's themes, philosophy, character development and story, but hey thats just me!

I think both are good in their own ways, and I did play K2 before K1. K2 has the darker story, while K1 is closer to the movies. K1 was much shorter, while K2 was long. Really, really, really long. K1 kept most of the old planets, while K2 introduced alot of "newer" EU ones. Though I have to say, Dxun was one of my favorite planets.

We should make an poll to determine something that has been bugging me for a while now: that people who went for K2 first like it better than the K1. It's just a recurring characteristic, IMO.

Yeah, I had noticed that, although knowing me as I do, even if I had played K1 first I like TSL because its much Darker and mature, I like K1, don't get me wrong, but its all nice and childy, I think TSL deals alot more with the effects of war.

We should make an poll to determine something that has been bugging me for a while now: that people who went for K2 first like it better than the K1. It's just a recurring characteristic, IMO.

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Originally Posted by jonathan7

Yeah, I had noticed that, although knowing me as I do, even if I had played K1 first I like TSL because its much Darker and mature, I like K1, don't get me wrong, but its all nice and childy, I think TSL deals alot more with the effects of war.

That's actually very common in most games with sequels. I've been gaming since essentially the dawn of the home computer era, and I've seen this same thing happen time and time again.

One of the more prominent examples would be the Fallout series. I think I'll always love the first the most, but most people I knew who jumped in with Fallout 2 tend to like it better. I won't even go into my opinions on Fallout 3 (and beyond), but suffice to say the same sort of phenomenon tends to apply, if anything in an even more pronounced sense due to the vast differences in style and feel between the "early" Fallout titles and the more modern FPS-styled ones.

The point to this little trip down Fallout lane is that, even though when I've participated in similar discussions regarding that series, the fans of Fallout 1 generally admit that Fallout 2 was a larger, longer, and more "advanced" game in terms of features and whatnot, yet Fallout 1 seemed to have a "better" story in some way they couldn't always even put their finger on.

Fans of the second tend to have a similar view, where they can freely admit the merits of the first, yet they almost universally hold the second as ultimately superior, and from what I've seen of the fans who came in at Fallout 3 or New Vegas, the trend is much the same, though often with a much wider margin of opinion due again to the vast differences in feel and game style.

I guess when it comes right down to it, there's something to the old adage of "There's nothing like the first time."

Yeah, I had noticed that, although knowing me as I do, even if I had played K1 first I like TSL because its much Darker and mature, I like K1, don't get me wrong, but its all nice and childy, I think TSL deals alot more with the effects of war.

I agree with this as well.
I played TSL first and prefer it to K1, even though I have to agree with alot of the stuff Allronix said (it does have it's faults), I still love TSL, cause K1 is just too...I don't know, ..goofy? cliche? ..etc;etc.
When I play K1 I just want to slap the s*** out of Bastila. I find it annoying when the game stops to prompt you to speak to an npc. so on and so forth..
And I think the graphics are much better in TSL.

I think both are good in their own ways, and I did play K2 before K1. K2 has the darker story, while K1 is closer to the movies. K1 was much shorter, while K2 was long. Really, really, really long. K1 kept most of the old planets, while K2 introduced alot of "newer" EU ones. Though I have to say, Dxun was one of my favorite planets.

I always thought it was the other way around. Even with the restored content mods K1 always lasted longer for me. Maybe I got used to the gameplay and just finished it faster. And I'm slow gamer, especially when it comes to RPGs, which I savor more.

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Originally Posted by jonathan7

Yeah, I had noticed that, although knowing me as I do, even if I had played K1 first I like TSL because its much Darker and mature, I like K1, don't get me wrong, but its all nice and childy, I think TSL deals alot more with the effects of war.

That's unquestionable. K1 is clichéd, but it works. Plus, I was like 13 at the time I played it, when I still thought TPM was a good movie, so it didn't bother me much. Even now, really, I still think it's what the prequels should have been somehow. While the story was certainly not as original, it did drive further into the story. The only part I remember getting bored was the time I got stuck at the Rancor on Taris, while this happened more than a couple of times on K2.

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Originally Posted by Kitty Kitty

I guess when it comes right down to it, there's something to the old adage of "There's nothing like the first time."

Personally I played K1 first, like 2003 sort of time almost. I enjoyed it and it was a perfect fit for what would happen later on in the galaxy. Next I played K2 a year or so after it came out. It was less than enjoyable in terms of balance but has good lessons and again meshes well with the galactic events and allows you to take control of someone who is not hugely important in the galaxy.

I don't think that I really liked either better but TSL was a bit sad in that it was not complete. Now Tor ruined preexisting Canon and inn doing so my life. Lol just kidding but it does suck it messed with canon.

~Greggomonkey

Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone."
―Darth Malak

That's actually very common in most games with sequels. I've been gaming since essentially the dawn of the home computer era, and I've seen this same thing happen time and time again.

One of the more prominent examples would be the Fallout series. I think I'll always love the first the most, but most people I knew who jumped in with Fallout 2 tend to like it better. I won't even go into my opinions on Fallout 3 (and beyond), but suffice to say the same sort of phenomenon tends to apply, if anything in an even more pronounced sense due to the vast differences in style and feel between the "early" Fallout titles and the more modern FPS-styled ones.

The point to this little trip down Fallout lane is that, even though when I've participated in similar discussions regarding that series, the fans of Fallout 1 generally admit that Fallout 2 was a larger, longer, and more "advanced" game in terms of features and whatnot, yet Fallout 1 seemed to have a "better" story in some way they couldn't always even put their finger on.

Fans of the second tend to have a similar view, where they can freely admit the merits of the first, yet they almost universally hold the second as ultimately superior, and from what I've seen of the fans who came in at Fallout 3 or New Vegas, the trend is much the same, though often with a much wider margin of opinion due again to the vast differences in feel and game style.

I guess when it comes right down to it, there's something to the old adage of "There's nothing like the first time."

-Kitty

I agree with this, even though the gameplay/graphics improvements were marginal in TSL, it makes a bit tougher to play a game with less force powers, worst graphics, crappy jedi robes and so forth.

As a KOTOR player you remember how you felt the first time, and say (this is an exageration btw) TSL is boring, nothing happens in the story and the gameplay is exactly the same... lazy job.
While if you haven't played KOTOR you don't have that reference.

I likely can't add anything new that anyone else hasn't already said here or elsewhere. While KotOR is a more complete, traditional game, the things that make TSL special are the characters and the deeper messages/implications about the state of the universe.

Which is why it didn't leave a good first impression with me. I liked it for the first few hours because I was so excited to get into a new story, but as I played on, it lost a bit of its thunder. Throughout most of the game, I felt like nothing was really happening. It felt like I was just going from planet to planet doing completely disconnected things for no real reason. And I don't even want to think about the final act.

As I played through it a few more times and read up on the cut parts of the story, it really gained its own unique appeal, and at this point, I'd say I prefer it to the original.

The second game is mostly free of archetypical conflict between Jedi and Sith morals, which naturally disappoints an average Star Wars fan. Its plot is based on the psychology of power, conflict and, first of all, on the one of solitude. And such stories never give exhaustive and definitive answers. They are written to make people thoughtful after the ending. And to make a sense of the wind driving the fallen leafage along the road.

So there is no point in comparing these two games. This is like comparing Romanticism and Magical Realism in literature. They are simply meant for different kinds of people.

My problem with TSL is that it's a Star Wars game that's ashamed to be a Star Wars game. It doesn't try for a feel of adventure or wonder, it couldn't be more bleak if it were written by Frank Miller - on a good day or a bad day for Frank. TSL might have made a fantastic Dragon Age or Fallout stories because those are -bleak- settings. Having a pitch-black, bleak Star Wars story is like having a bleak My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic story.

Yea I felt that KOTOR 1 had a much better vibe and didn't make me want to cut my wrists or wear black eyeliner nearly as much.

In spite of anybody's attitude, there are no games, movies or books somebody should suicide of. I wonder, why people of today are so soft.

And anyways, vein-cutting is not a method. It is for those who wanna make a loud show, and then call 911 and wail: "O-oooh, blast it, o-oooh, damn it, I was cooking a dinner and decided to slice a ham with a chainsaw! (Yeah-yeah, suburban lumberjack, curse it.) Save me, ple-eeease! I'm too young to die!" Never could get it. If I would like to hand to my account - I would take old good Redhawk and adorn the wall with brain.

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Originally Posted by Primogen

Having a pitch-black, bleak Star Wars story is like having a bleak My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic story.

Hm, have you ever read Jeter's trilogy or Hambly's Planet of Twilight, partner?

Haven't read Planet of Twilight. HAVE read the Bounty Hunter Trilogy, and it was so unbelievably stupid I honestly contemplated going into business as a crappy fiction writer because I couldn't come up with stuff as stupid as this guy. KUAT OF KUAT? IS EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THE GUY'S HOUSE NAMED KUAT? WHO NAMES A PERSON AFTER A PLANET? WHERE ARE THE CORUSCANT JONESES!?

*Cough*

Anyway, other brands of grim 'n' gritty Star Wars tend to be kinda crap, especially if they go for the same feel. I give Republic Commando a pass as it managed to actually be a good first person shooter, plus aside from the grit and blood, the game actually had a sense of fun.

HAVE read the Bounty Hunter Trilogy, and it was so unbelievably stupid I honestly contemplated going into business as a crappy fiction writer because I couldn't come up with stuff as stupid as this guy. KUAT OF KUAT? IS EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THE GUY'S HOUSE NAMED KUAT?

No, his aunt's name was Onara Kuat.

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WHO NAMES A PERSON AFTER A PLANET? WHERE ARE THE CORUSCANT JONESES!?

And don't you think that the PLANET was named after the most powerful long-ruling family of it? We've got such cases in real world - for example, according to Titus Livius, Rome was named after its first king Romulus. So what's the problem? Fictional Kuati society even has got some traits similar to Roman one's (if you don't believe me, I may specify).

No hard feelings, but the behavior of some SW fans concerning KotOR II reminds me real-world Middle East protests against anything and anybody they consider unhalal or infidel respectively. I wonder why can't you accept that it is just an evolution of genre? Returning to my first post in this topic, who could imagine in the XIX century, that the Realism can be the magical one? An now we've got One Hundreed Years of Solitude novel of Gabriel García Márquez, having received the Nobel Prize in 1982. Nothing stays without changes in the Universe, except the infinity and eternity of the latter.

The Kuat of Kuat thing was just a thing, but seriously, it wasn't just his surname, it was his -NAME- name. That wasn't really what annoyed me the most about the book, but the whole thing was just this endless series of fapping to Fett. He's really not that interesting of a character, especially when the person stated to be Fett's greatest rival is Bossk, who is a COMPLETE MORON. Seriously, that's lazy writing right there, making your hero look like a badass by making his nearest competitor a total idiot. A GUY DRILLS A HOLE THROUGH THE WALL TO USE IT AS A LISTENING DEVICE. IN A WORD, WHAT.

*Sigh*

That's a gross overstatement of the facts. But good job doing your best to demonize the people who disagree with you. Grim and dark is an improvement, only a shift, and Star Wars isn't a genre, it's a setting.

But my problems with KotoR II are not only that it's bleak. My other problems are that it's a mediocre plot with stupid characters. Not a single original character in KotoR II is the slightest bit likeable. Sure, they might be interesting, but Charles Manson was a very -interesting- person, I still have no desire to associate with him.

And the design on the villains was so damn -lazy-. Okay, Malak was admittedly not that awesome of a villain, but at least he wasn't 'Lord Pain', 'Guy Who Eats Everything' and 'Your Totally Not Evil Mentor Who Is Actually Evil'.

The Kuat of Kuat thing was just a thing, but seriously, it wasn't just his surname, it was his -NAME- name.

Romulus was also a name. But even if we speak about modern age, is it impossible to meet some Jackie Jackson in the US, Ivan Ivanov in Russia, Álvaro Alvares in México etc.? It happens quite often. Some people of such surnames like to call their children so (though personally I don't think it's too good). But nothing rare, I repeat.

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Originally Posted by Primogen

That wasn't really what annoyed me the most about the book, but the whole thing was just this endless series of fapping to Fett. He's really not that interesting of a character, especially when the person stated to be Fett's greatest rival is Bossk, who is a COMPLETE MORON. Seriously, that's lazy writing right there, making your hero look like a badass by making his nearest competitor a total idiot. A GUY DRILLS A HOLE THROUGH THE WALL TO USE IT AS A LISTENING DEVICE. IN A WORD, WHAT.

I would not consider the storyline concerning Fett's rivalry with Bossk a principal one. If it was so, the story would be a standard second-rate criminal story popular in the late 80s and 90s transferred into a sci-fi world. While the book is written in the style of political detective. The main storyline concerns incessant intrigues in Imperial policy, involving and devouring more and more people each time, and how to survive, if the one is already involved. It is incomparably more interesting, if looking from this point of view.

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Originally Posted by Primogen

That's a gross overstatement of the facts. But good job doing your best to demonize the people who disagree with you.

Where have I demonized anybody? I just expressed my regret for unfair criticizing a good game.

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Originally Posted by Primogen

Grim and dark is an improvement, only a shift, and Star Wars isn't a genre, it's a setting.

Star Wars - yes, but Star Wars sci-fi is a genre, or, more exactly, a subgenre of science fiction in general (again, if you need - I can explain why).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Primogen

But my problems with KotoR II are not only that it's bleak. My other problems are that it's a mediocre plot with stupid characters. Not a single original character in KotoR II is the slightest bit likeable. Sure, they might be interesting, but Charles Manson was a very -interesting- person, I still have no desire to associate with him.

Well, if it's so - indicate, where their mediocrity and stupidity manifest themselves. It's one of the easiest things in the world to call something mediocre and stupid without specification.

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Originally Posted by Primogen

And the design on the villains was so damn -lazy-. Okay, Malak was admittedly not that awesome of a villain, but at least he wasn't 'Lord Pain', 'Guy Who Eats Everything'

And again, you're not explaining, why he is better than them, only expressing your personal attitide, while we are trying to substantiate our opinions. Or am I mistaking?

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and 'Your Totally Not Evil Mentor Who Is Actually Evil'.

Well, if you prefer it - your choice, but I don't like railroad-straight stories. Besides, it is incorrect to apply to Kreia terms like "good" or "evil". She's absolutely hermetic, unwilling to say even something about her motivations. That's why she cannot be called good. But she's not evil as well. If you don't agree - show me at least one evil act she commits.

I really don't think that Kreia being evil/previously a Sith was meant to be a surprise at all, any more than Canderous, Hanharr, or the other dark-sided party members. It irks me that people keep saying there was no big twist in TSL or that Kreia being evil was actually a "false twist", when the actual twist is played rather straight and very much telegraphed to the player when it comes up.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Well, if you prefer it - your choice, but I don't like railroad-straight stories. Besides, it is incorrect to apply to Kreia terms like "good" or "evil". She's absolutely hermetic, unwilling to say even something about her motivations. That's why she cannot be called good. But she's not evil as well. If you don't agree - show me at least one evil act she commits.

(Emphasis mine) I've got a few.

1. Advocates manipulating others for personal gain.
2. Only dissuades Dark!Exile from murdering innocents because it's impulsive and blunt, not because she cares about the innocents.
3. Complains about Light!Exile helping the weak for supposedly weakening them further.
4. Kills the Jedi Masters for revenge (say what you want about whether you like them or not, but she didn't even try to reason with them).
5. Mind-rapes Atton and blackmails him into sticking with the crew.
6. Extends Hanharr's suffering so he can be sent to be killed by Mira.

And where does this "says nothing about her motivations" idea come from? She spends a crapton of time on Dantooine and Malachor waxing poetic about why she wants her revenge. And if the above list of evil stuff doesn't cut it for whatever reason, her ultimate goal of killing the Force should - she's willing to risk killing at least a sizable chunk of the galaxy's population. And in the end, Kreia's only real reason for wanting to do so is just that she's butthurt over being spurned by the people on its two sides.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Who and in which way?

Just about everyone in the game who talks about Revan talks about what a genius he was, but you really need to look no further than Kreia, who makes a number of arguments meant to justify his defiance of the Jedi Council, his turn to the dark side, and his war against the Republic. She argues a lot that Revan "never fell" and did everything he did to save the galaxy from the Sith in the Unknown Regions, but it's pretty obviously a channel of her own self-righteous pride - Revan was her star pupil, and she can't handle the thought of him (and herself by extension) being a failure.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

Could you specify? Saving your life may also be called a personal gain.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

2. Only dissuades Dark!Exile from murdering innocents because it's impulsive and blunt, not because she cares about the innocents.

And don't you think that she said so merely because she understood that it is usless trying to suggest the principles of morality to a complete rascal, and decided to save the lives of those people at least such way.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

3. Complains about Light!Exile helping the weak for supposedly weakening them further.

Isn't she right? If you wanna help somebody - teach him to solve the problems, don't solve them yourself.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

4. Kills the Jedi Masters for revenge (say what you want about whether you like them or not, but she didn't even try to reason with them).

They tried to crush the soul of the Exile who was like son / daughter to her. Maybe you will reason with those who will try to do so with your child, but I will speak to such people only using my revolver.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

5. Mind-rapes Atton and blackmails him into sticking with the crew.

... knowing that he is former assassin.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

6. Extends Hanharr's suffering so he can be sent to be killed by Mira.

Didn't he deserve it?

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

And where does this "says nothing about her motivations" idea come from? She spends a crapton of time on Dantooine and Malachor waxing poetic about why she wants her revenge.

Explain me, why the revenge is a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

And if the above list of evil stuff doesn't cut it for whatever reason, her ultimate goal of killing the Force should - she's willing to risk killing at least a sizable chunk of the galaxy's population. And in the end, Kreia's only real reason for wanting to do so is just that she's butthurt over being spurned by the people on its two sides.

Killing the Force to save the Exile. But, anyways, the energy cannot be killed, you know. There is no way of exterminating it.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

Just about everyone in the game who talks about Revan talks about what a genius he was, but you really need to look no further than Kreia, who makes a number of arguments meant to justify his defiance of the Jedi Council, his turn to the dark side, and his war against the Republic.

Defiance of the Jedi Council! What an heinous crime! Defiance of those, who provoked the fall of the Republic. And not once, I remind. Defiance of sheer hypocrites. As for me, it is an act of honor to betray them.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

She argues a lot that Revan "never fell" and did everything he did to save the galaxy from the Sith in the Unknown Regions, but it's pretty obviously a channel of her own self-righteous pride - Revan was her star pupil, and she can't handle the thought of him (and herself by extension) being a failure.

Could you specify? Saving your life may also be called a personal gain.

Oh, geeze. Talk to her on the Ebon Hawk - if you tell her your party members are friends and not tools, she says you've learned nothing. Honestly, though, this is such a fundamental part of Kreia's personality that I find it nitpicky of you to ask for specifics.

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Originally Posted by MDX

And don't you think that she said so merely because she understood that it is usless trying to suggest the principles of morality to a complete rascal, and decided to save the lives of those people at least such way.

Well, no, I think that if Kreia actually did care about the poor sods who get in DS!Exile's way, she would say so. She tries to hammer all of her actual teachings and principles into you at every turn.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Isn't she right? If you wanna help somebody - teach him to solve the problems, don't solve them yourself.

No, she isn't. If Jedi followed her philosophy, a lot more people would be dead and non-Jedi who actually know stuff about them (unlike the common citizens of the galaxy) would have a lot more reason to despise them.

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Originally Posted by MDX

They tried to crush the soul of the Exile who was like son / daughter to her. Maybe you will reason with those who will try to do so with your child, but I will speak to such people only using my revolver.

That statement portrays Kreia as impulsive to a nearly childish degree, and doesn't really address the point anyway. (Don't know how Sever Force translates to soul crushing, either)

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Originally Posted by MDX

... knowing that he is former assassin.

What you're saying is that because Atton used to be a really bad guy, what Kreia did to him was justified, then.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Didn't he deserve it?

No. The crazy wookiee didn't even want to live anymore, and she did nothing with him except send him to get killed by Mira.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Explain me, why the revenge is a bad thing.

Selfish, for one thing, and for another she doesn't care who gets in the way.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Killing the Force to save the Exile. But, anyways, the energy cannot be killed, you know. There is no way of exterminating it.

That Kreia's plan would not have worked (if that is the case) does not lighten the fact that she was willing to kill such a ridiculous number of people - and for what? So she can prove herself right in a pissing match with the Council.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Defiance of the Jedi Council! What an heinous crime! Defiance of those, who provoked the fall of the Republic. And not once, I remind. Defiance of sheer hypocrites. As for me, it is an act of honor to betray them.

I don't want this to turn into a malignant tumor of a debate (seeing as we're primarily talking about Kreia at this point), but this is far from the first time I've heard someone bull**** about how the Council was more responsible for the Republic's near-destruction than Revan (who could have told them about the True Sith instead of declaring war on the Republic). Said argument has not grown any more compelling with age. Besides, the real meat of the problem is the whole Sith thing. If Revan had won the Mandalorian Wars without that particular side-effect, then I would be willing to agree with his justification.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Is it strange that a teacher is proud of her pupil?

To the degree that she literally believes that said pupil can do no wrong whatsover and bases her entire life around trying to prove that belief? **** yeah.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

Oh, geeze. Talk to her on the Ebon Hawk - if you tell her your party members are friends and not tools, she says you've learned nothing. Honestly, though, this is such a fundamental part of Kreia's personality that I find it nitpicky of you to ask for specifics.

Yeah, nitpicker - is my middle name. But, if seriously, I doubt, whether anybody, after living such life she did, would be disposed to believe in disinterested friendship. Things looking like some evil conduct may often be a precaution.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

Well, no, I think that if Kreia actually did care about the poor sods who get in DS!Exile's way, she would say so. She tries to hammer all of her actual teachings and principles into you at every turn.

Well, explain, why your interpretation of her dids is more probable than mine?

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

No, she isn't. If Jedi followed her philosophy, a lot more people would be dead and non-Jedi who actually know stuff about them (unlike the common citizens of the galaxy) would have a lot more reason to despise them.

Well, vagabonds also despise prosperous people. Should anybody care?

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

That statement portrays Kreia as impulsive to a nearly childish degree, and doesn't really address the point anyway.

Unfounded assertion. Impulsivity - is a word used by cowards to call normal and sane determination and courage.

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Don't know how Sever Force translates to soul crushing, either

Learn, what Lucas based the concept of the Force on, and you'll get to know.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

What you're saying is that because Atton used to be a really bad guy, what Kreia did to him was justified, then.

How could she know that he wasn't bad?

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

No. The crazy wookiee didn't even want to live anymore, and she did nothing with him except send him to get killed by Mira.

Well, he didn't want to live. Kreia sent him to die. Dreams come true. What's the problem?

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

Selfish, for one thing, and for another she doesn't care who gets in the way.

Oh, "everything for others, nothing for yourself". Are you socialist?

And could you name some really good guy she sacrificed during her revenge?

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

That Kreia's plan would not have worked (if that is the case) does not lighten the fact that she was willing to kill such a ridiculous number of people - and for what? So she can prove herself right in a pissing match with the Council.

One more time, she did it to save the Exile.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001

I don't want this to turn into a malignant tumor of a debate (seeing as we're primarily talking about Kreia at this point), but this is far from the first time I've heard someone bull**** about how the Council was more responsible for the Republic's near-destruction than Revan (who could have told them about the True Sith instead of declaring war on the Republic). Said argument has not grown any more compelling with age. Besides, the real meat of the problem is the whole Sith thing. If Revan had won the Mandalorian Wars without that particular side-effect, then I would be willing to agree with his justification.

The Republic became immensely weak because of Jedis' pacifism and irresoluteness. So Revan decided to change the form of government to save it from the True Sith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001

To the degree that she literally believes that said pupil can do no wrong whatsover and bases her entire life around trying to prove that belief? **** yeah.

Yeah, nitpicker - is my middle name. But, if seriously, I doubt, whether anybody, after living such life she did, would be disposed to believe in disinterested friendship. Things looking like some evil conduct may often be a precaution.

It's not about precautions. Her words, actions, and doctrine deliberately tell you to not give a **** about others.

Regarding the "nitpicking" comment: Allow me to retract that; I find rather that it betrays an astonishingly poor understanding of Kreia's character on your part.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Well, explain, why your interpretation of her dids is more probable than mine?

How about because "my interpretation" relies on conclusions drawn from examples of what actually happens in the game, rather than blanket statements that I pull from nowhere?

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Originally Posted by MDX

Well, vagabonds also despise prosperous people. Should anybody care?

This has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Unfounded assertion. Impulsivity - is a word used by cowards to call normal and sane determination and courage.

Yeah? Well, only simpletons keep their holsters filled with revolvers instead of reason.

Your statement implied that Kreia's killing of the Jedi Masters was a reflexive, defensive action taken to protect a person she cared about - which is nonsense, because she only cares about the Exile to the degree to which she can be used as a tool. She doesn't care about what the Exile wants in life, what she feels, or what she believes.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Learn, what Lucas based the concept of the Force on, and you'll get to know.

Don't bother actually explaining to me what the problem is, just tell me to figure it out myself.

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Originally Posted by MDX

How could she know that he wasn't bad?

Irrelevant to the point, which is that you are implying that you condone the act of Kreia screwing with Atton's head on the basis of the things Atton used to do.

Also, "how could she know?" Her ****ing mind-reading powers might have a hand in that. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Well, he didn't want to live. Kreia sent him to die. Dreams come true. What's the problem?

The problem is, again, that Kreia prolonged his suffering for no particular reason. If she was going to preserve his life, then she ought to have done something other than waste it.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Oh, "everything for others, nothing for yourself". Are you socialist?

What?

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Originally Posted by MDX

And could you name some really good guy she sacrificed during her revenge?

How about Tobin (though the Exile can save him later)? The guy may have been on Valku's side, but in the end he was just a patriot who wanted to protect the independence of his planet, and we don't know of anything particularly evil he did other than fight on Onderon. She sent him to Nihilus to slowly die from Force drainage on his ship. Even supposing he deserved death, did he deserve a death like that?

If he doesn't count, how about the Jedi Masters? I wouldn't be surprised if you (like many others) consider Vrook to be a bigger monster than Malak, but what about Kavar and Zez? Did they deserve death as well?

If they don't count, there were definitely plenty of civilians at Telos who were killed because Kreia drew Nihilus to the system.

Even if none of those count, what you are implying is that because the people Kreia used were evil, it was okay. The problem with that is that she was doing it because she wanted revenge, not because she cared about the well-being of others.

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Originally Posted by MDX

One more time, she did it to save the Exile.

And why does that justify it? Why is it admirable for Kreia to be willing to (by her own words) kill the galaxy for one woman whom she wants to use to carry out her plans?

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Originally Posted by MDX

The Republic became immensely weak because of Jedis' pacifism and irresoluteness.

I'd like a source for that. By all indications, the Mandalorian Wars were going bad for them simply because their sizable military was not well-commanded, nothing to do with the Jedi (who, by the way, were not in the best shape in the aftermath of the Great Sith War).

You may disregard that assertion of mine, however. I would be content if you were to explain how the Republic being weakened by the Jedi justifies Revan's act of declaring war on it.

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Originally Posted by MDX

So Revan decided to change the form of government to save it from the True Sith.

So you're saying that there was no way to fix/change the form of the Republic's government that, say, would've resulted in a quadrillion or so fewer deaths than the method Revan ended up going with? Also, destroying and taking the assets of the Republic constitutes something completely different from mere change and reform. Even freaking Palpatine's rise to power was legal, as far as anyone knew.

The Republic's alleged ineffectiveness does not justify the deaths Revan caused (numerous civilians and Republic forces deliberately allowed to die in order to corrupt his Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars, the use of a superweapon to destroy all life on Malachor V, the deaths of numerous Republic civilians and military personnel in the Jedi Civil War, and the destruction of Republic planets by Malak which at the very least were tolerated by Revan).

If Revan's aims were half as noble as Kreia says, then he would have brought proof of the True Sith's existence to the Jedi Order and the Republic, and then helped them to strengthen it properly, rather than forming his own Sith Empire and trying to destroy the Republic with it. What is so damn admirable about what he planned to do? It was nothing except trading one Sith domination of the galaxy for another. We see how great it is to live under the Sith Empire in KotOR I.

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Originally Posted by MDX

And she succeeds in proving it.

The hell she does. If there is any person or thing in the entire series that we have any reason to suspect that Kreia lies about or misrepresents, it's Revan.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Yeah, she talks. And Revan proves her words by his actions.

Revan doesn't prove **** in TSL, most importantly because he isn't in the bloody game. More to the point, it's pretty obvious that Kreia is infatuated with her greatest student, and she has every reason to lie about him - if she admits that what Revan did was wrong, then she also admits that she was a failure in teaching him, and she is unable to accept that.

Don't tell me that Kreia doesn't have a borderline-insane bias in favor of Revan - there is not a single solitary negative thing anywhere in TSL that she says about Revan. All she does is gush and gush and gush like so many fanboys and fangirls.

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Originally Posted by MDX

Here we go again. Explain me the way an energy can be killed, destroyed, slaughtered, elliminated, immolated - any word you like.

Play and pay attention to the ****ing game. Kreia's plan is to sustain the Force Wound at Malachor V that was formed when the planet got ****ed up, and it's stated elsewhere in the game that if that wound persists indefinitely, then everyone touched by the Force (i.e, everyone alive) will either be deafened to it or killed.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

I think that the people who most hated TSL and whined about it having "no story at all" and it being "boring with no purpose" or something along those lines have never really paid attention to the story at all. Or maybe they just skipped every line. Or maybe they are hard critics. I admit, at first, it did seem like that to me. But then I recently played through it again, paying more attention to detail and story, and I found it to have a better storyline than I originally thought. There is a couple plotholes, but I had the TSLRCM mod installed to patch those up. Overall, it has a... Different story then K1. Darker, as I said before.