Monday, December 10, 2007

Perhaps a deeper explanation of the raider mindset when it comes to loot rewards would help in our discussion on PvP vs Raid Epics. Please note that this is strictly from a Loot As Reward perspective, not Loot As Investment.

For a raider, quality of loot depends on the challenge you need to overcome. The harder the challenge, the higher quality your reward is. Quantity of loot does not really change. Throughout my raiding career, I've averaged about one epic every two weeks or so. It is random, so it's not exactly one every two weeks, but it's close. The rate at which a progressing raider gains upgrades doesn't really change as content changes. What changes is the quality of the upgrades. As the raid gets better and better, as harder and harder challenges are overcome, raiders are not rewarded with more loot, they are rewarded with better loot.

So in the raider mindset, quality is the most important characteristic of loot. It represents the challenge that has been overcome. Raiders generally don't like content where the quality of reward does not match the challenge. Even bosses which are too easy for their loot are disdained (Void Reaver, most of Molten Core). Bosses which are too hard for their loot inspire a lot of forum angst.

This is diametrically opposite of the PvP situation. In PvP, the quality of the reward is fixed, and is generally whatever the highest season is. What changes is the quantity of loot. Higher skill or rating, which translates into overcoming harder challenges, is rewarded with more loot, not better loot.

From a raider mindset, this is very weird. It breaks the link between challenge and reward. And we like that link. Raiders feel that having that link is important, as it inspires people to push forward. If you don't get better as a raider, you stop progressing loot-wise. In PvP, it seems like you don't the same pressure to improve your skills. You stay level, and the loot keeps coming in, and you are able to improve your character without improving in skill. Sure you could get the loot faster, but the upgrade train never actually stops or even slows down.

Raiders actually like PvP rewards that match the "challenge = quality of reward" mindset. People with the epic flyers, or the various titles, are impressive. People with high ratings get a lot of respect.

And it's an honest question if a game should break the link between challenge and quality of reward. I kind of like that the game pushes you to continually increase your skill. I would love 5-mans or solo quests that continued to increase in challenge. Zul'Aman has been highly received by the raiding community, even though it's only a 10-man. Many pre-TBC hunters still speak fondly of their quest to get their epic bow Rhok'delar, as it was supposed to be a very challenging quest.

When the game doesn't have that push, we end up with negative behavior. We have people AFK in Alterac Valley. We have teams /dancing in Arenas so that they can finish their games quickly.

Raiding does have many problems, especially with time and organizational issues. But the basic idea that "quality of reward is linked to the challenge overcome" is not one of them.

Posted by
Rohan

44 comments:

scrubvert
said...

This may be true for some builds, but it isn't across the board. For a shadow priest or affliction lock, crafted stuff you can make before stepping foot in 25 man content rivals t5 and 6 (top 3 in slot for most, and most of the rest can be filled in with za, kara, heroics). Itemlevel != utilitylevel. For some builds, pvp gear rivals if not equals pve gear, for others it's garbage.

It also depends on what realm you're on. If you're on a well progressde one, you can get crafted/craftable SSC & BT stuff (boots, bracers, belt, shoulders) for a moderate amount of gold/mats. If you're not, tough luck.

There was some challenge progression in 5-mans: Nonheroic, heroic, speedrun. Blizzard just dropped the ball and let the rewards stay roughly the same. Unless you are going for the Champion of the Naaru title, there's little point in doing a speedrun of Heroic Shattered Halls. I've yet to complete a Zul'Aman speedrun, so I can't comment on the challenge/reward ratio of it yet.

The problem with difficult solo encounters is that they are relatively expensive to make. Rhok'delar quests were simply a waste of developer resources for non-hunters, just like Benediction/Anathema quest was a waste for non-priests. Blizzard did try to make compromise with Shartuul, though. It's a solo encounter, but it ignores your character's class, spec and gear.

Raiders up in arms about today's PvP epics sure didn't mind selling BWL spots to finance their Naxx progression, never mind the "progression" they made their customers skip. How's that for welfare epics?

Oh, and for the mythical scrub 1200 rated teams /dancing for points in arena? Fraps or it didn't happen.

I doubt anyone will dispute that rewards must be earned. (Ok yeah i know some whiny sap out there will but can't make everyone happy.)

But I'm not sure I follow the meaning of that post. Is that a response to the wellfaire Epic question?

"Negative" behavior certainly is not a surprise, and its not going to change. We certainly know that afking while down, still happens, and I don't doubt there are people who /dance in the arena (I had an alliance premade /dance in a WSG just the other day rather then fight.)

At other times in PVE people will "DC" or drop group after a wipe, or only show up to raid after the fights were "learned" and the dieing is done.

As I posted in other comments (under Welfare Epics 2), I assert that WoW is not a test of skill, but rather a time-reward system.

In other words, the general rule is that WoW rewards are time-based, not skill-based.The first poster points out a strong case of this, in that high-end crafted cloth epics are extremely good gear, but can be entirely farmed and bought (time over skill).

If the argument of raiders is based upon challenge, which I took to mean "game skill", then PvP wins. For it is well-known that humans are far superior to any computer AI right now in video gaming. Typically this is balanced by giving the mob advantages like extra life, immunities, etc. But as we all know, mobs are predictable, and that is a basic reason why they are easier in terms of skill (threat meters are useless in Arena...).

If the argument is easing requirements, what about the long history of nerfs to raiding?Kara is much easier than at TBC release, according to what I've heard from longtime raiders. And consumable cost was addressed, too. It's even been argued that daily quests are for raiders, since PvP-ers typically need much less gold.

If the discussion turns to cheating / exploits, what about the case of the wall-hacking raiders (and from a high-end guild, no less)?Raiders are not above using exploits and hacks or taking advantage of design or implementation errors.

And frankly, in my crafting and PvP, I don't exceed the 2-weeks-per-epic that was mentioned in the blog post. I don't think that a typical casual PvP-er or crafter/farmer will exceed that quantity, so I don't see a quantity disparity in my experience. As always, in order to increase the rate of epics-over-time, one simply increases time invested. The raider must raid more, and the PvP-er must PvP more.

Hi Rohan, you are looking at PVP with PVE glasses on. Please stop, it's rather silly.

Simply put, PVP is about smashing face. It's about pwning the opponent. It's about making them take a dirt nap and standing victorious over them. Loser walks to the other side of the field? That's right. Loser buys? That's right (literally, losers buys my gear, thanks for the rating points).

Look at Warcraft 3 (tournaments STILL running). Look at Starcraft (tournaments STILL running). And holy hell I can only imagine what's going to happen with SC2 on the horizon. And prize money/electronics to boot. And sponsorship.

No one cares if the top ladder player in WC3/SC completed the story mode on hard. NO ONE CARES.

Guess what else no one cares about? Bottom ranked, crappy ratio ladder players who are terrible in matched games. No one watches their replays, nothing to learn from their tactics, a minor blip in a sea of other usernames.

What does that player have to do? Play to win, play to get better, work to become top dog (or at least, higher then he's ranked before, aka IMPROVEMENT).

WoW PVP is the same with the introduction of Arena. Seeing your name and team on page el numero uno is an amazing thing (hell, I'm STILL amazed when I sort out just my server and see my teams on page1).

Competition is the reward. Sending the other side home packing, crying to their mom is the reward. Dropping someone 100 points in a 5-0 series is the reward (especially when they cost you points last week). Winning even though their classes stacked to directly counter yours is the reward (ever see the offensive push a 4DPS lineup with 4x Undead can do?). Boasting rights is the reward.

PVP Rewards are a thing on the side that comes naturally from the system, especially a competitive system where players' resources don't start out equal like in RTS style play. Win more and rise to the top faster, gear comes in faster, you are allowed less mistakes---the more you can start focusing on your execution and how you really can bring it to the opponent (or maybe even counter something that normally floored you).

Lose and suck, aka your repeated "lose x10 games a week = epics"---the only epics these types of players get is an epic beating. You get less than 300 Arena points, no experience, they admitted defeat before even trying (lolcompetitivespiritwhut?), will have to shell out more money in a week for a brand new charter, probably a sniveling snail in RL confrontations. And yes, they still get something---they get laughed at by PVP'ers while standing around IF/Shatt with their epic gear---because we've been looking at the ranking pages every week and never even heard of said player. We've never faced said player in our bracket range. We know their gear has a hollow story, not filled with tales of guts, glory and the weeping of their opponent.

So all this talk about how people who PVE "feel" rewards should taxed out in a PVP system, are missing the boat. Anyone who sees the gear you can get from PVP as the end all be all is treating PVP like PVE---where enemy players are no different from farmable mobs. And that's just terribad.

One last note, I'd like to reiterate my previous comment---I'd like to see how PVE'ers would feel if there were more restrictions placed on them for not clearing an instance in a month's time upon the release date of said instance. Or before there was an online guide. Or before there was a boss mod addon developed. Or before a boss was nerfed (hello, how many guilds suddenely got Kael down after the nerf?). Or before they outgeared the place to death. Or if they are not on page 1 of PVE ranking sites. Surely, if more restrictions on PVP needs to be placed for subpar players, then mediocre guilds shouldn't being seeing top of the line PVE gear either for being "months behind."

Well Doeg I agree some what but i also disagree mainly my issue is time vs skill. This is a very old arguement, and one that I find to be related to the quality question but in the end both really don't matter.

This was an argument I first heard when high warlord (grand marshal) became a time question and not am I the biggest BA. The reality is a more skilled player will achieve the results they desire more rapidly then a less skilled one.

This is as it should be. Why make less skilled player never be able to achive their goals? Game won't last if you dont allow ALL players to be rewarded, so what if it takes a casualy noob 1 Month to get a piece of S1?

It's not hard for a group of good players to get piece a week (maybe more). But in the end they are both having fun and both playing the game, that is all that counts.

Sure you can laugh and call them noobs and tell them to L2P but if people are not having fun with the game then they have NO incentive to learn to play.

Logically we as a player base must attempted to support our game, and this means we can moan and complain when things get easier. (Back in my day we killed mobs up hills both ways, looted Grey items and we great full for the privileged. /shakes cane)

But in the end we should just be happy that people are sharing our add... game with us.

"One last note, I'd like to reiterate my previous comment---I'd like to see how PVE'ers would feel if there were more restrictions placed on them for not clearing an instance in a month's time upon the release date of said instance. Or before there was an online guide. Or before there was a boss mod addon developed. Or before a boss was nerfed (hello, how many guilds suddenely got Kael down after the nerf?). Or before they outgeared the place to death. Or if they are not on page 1 of PVE ranking sites. Surely, if more restrictions on PVP needs to be placed for subpar players, then mediocre guilds shouldn't being seeing top of the line PVE gear either for being "months behind."

Here is the difference between PvP and PvE. A "mediocre guild" that can't clear Kara will not see high end raid content. They will not get ilevel 141's from raiding. They have to progress through content to get better gear. In PvP, no matter how bad you are you will eventually be getting something. In PvP, it doesn't matter if you just bought your first level 70 off ebay or have been playing since Vanilia beta, you will be getting the exact same rewards. The only difference is time invested. There is no progress. It would be like a mediocre guild being able to just run into BT and (after a while) kill the bosses by default.

If I could find the blue post I would put it here, but a long time ago Kalgan said that the reason they made the arena sets look the same as the tier sets is because they measure equal progression. The fact remain that PvP has no progression though. Going straight from quest greens to ilevel 141's is not progression. Its akin to a guild going to BT for their first raid ever. It doesn't happen in PvE, yet its ok for it to happen in PvP?

And as a final side note, there is no such thing as a "boss without a guide". We publish strats for new bosses long before they ever hit live (for example, there were full guides to the ZA bosses on EJ within 2 or 3 days of the 2.3 PTR going up). Boss Mods are not really required, they just make things easier (just like Arena addons like Proximo).

@ dazanna - That was my point. The guilds that do the clearing during PTR's, put up the info for everyone else, create/write mods specific to encounters and then spread them for mass use (hello Nurfed)---they would have their Personal Raid Rating unaffected, they are the 2300+ teams in the PVE realm for pushing through content like white on rice.

Everyone else who doesn't, sorry, you won't be seeing certain drops when you kill the boss in its nerfed state 2 months later after a patch or two. Have to keep the progression related to the challenge.

My take is that any comparison of PVE and PVP needs to be done judiciously; there's quite a bit between the two endeavors that isn't similar, and that bleeds over into the gear needs and approaches.

I can understand the impression that a PVPer who simply puts in the time (as Doeg would say) without any real accomplishment gets epics. It's true, no fraps required.

But so what? PVP is a direct competition. And gear is a huge competitive edge. It is essential to any system that rewards success by *granting* additional competitive edge have a mechanism for balancing that out. Especially in the small format of the arenas. It works, and I would say it works staggeringly better than the previous systems with the GM/HWL ranks. The difference as has been pointed out, albeit in different language, is that it is the current titles, ratings and standings that are the prestige, not the gear itself.

And, in my opinion, that's just fine.

On the flip side, this gear-equalization approach presents a philosophical challenge on the PVE side. There is no title "Gruul Slayer", "Naga Kicker", or "Illidan=pwned!" PVE never needed this (though it would be cool) because the distinctive raiding gear *was* the badge of honor, the visible mark of success. You can't get T6 on the AH; you had to be there.

So (a) the muddying of the uniqueness of the look of the gear causes dissastisfaction, and (b) the option of getting PVP epics without real commitment or accomplishment is dissonant with what Rohan has called the "Loot as Reward" viewpoint.

Overall, I see this as primarily something that should be addressed on the PVE side, rather than the PVP side. There are some gear issues, whereby some PVP gear bleeds over into PVE, but this isn't a huge deal.

I am curious, though, if the avowed PVPers in this thread would agree with this thought: there is no need for a Season 4 gear set, and indeed such a set would be detrimental to the game.

After all, T5/T6 are inadequate for PVP, so the 'raiders are spoiling the PVP' argument is history. So if gear *isn't* the reward, but is just the equalizer, then there is no need for gear beyond S3. And if PVP gear keeps upgrading where PVE doesn't, this creates the obvious issue where the ilevel ceiling keep rising, ultimately leading to PVP gear being better for raiding than early raiding gear.

So the theory I'm suggesting is that from this point forward, PVP rewards should be the titles, ratings, and standings. Maybe some cool vanity rewards. But increasing gear is counter-productive, until/unless T7 and beyond is introduced and re-balancing is required.

This would seem to be quite consistent with competition being the reward, not the gear. Isn't competition *enhanced* by the most equal starting point?

@ brock - You have some good points, but I'd like to tackle "there's no reason beyond Season 1" argument.

Just as Blizzard likes to dangle carrots (apparently, piss poor carrots that need to be buffed, add more tokens/badges, screw RNG loot) in front of their PVE community (expected Sunwell trailer and loot leaks.. soon?) to keep players paying subscriptions and logging in, Blizzard also has to do it for PVP.

If they didn't add tiered Arena sets, less people would queue up simply. That distorts competition---how do you know who's "really" on top, who's the best, if the cream of the crop have no incentive to compete for those spots? No new PVP gear means less people playing and possibly subscribing once their goals are met.

New gear also adds for new tactics and strategy in Arena itself. During Season 1, there was no such thing as a Drain team (teams designed to deplete opposing mana pools). Why? Because no one had a full set, the average player could barely scrap together 200 Resilience. Coordinated burst damage during moments of CC were still the way to go. Hell, there were still POM AP Pyro Mages and Destruction Locks running around, and winning.

Season 2-3, drain teams are very strong, against 400 Resilience targets, a mana pool is a very nice angle to attack from (especially since actual Int value increases from season to season don't go up by much). This development would not have happened if everyone was stuck in Season 1 gear and Season 1 mentality. A drain team typically beats out a heavy healer team, which in turn beats out a stacked 4DPS team---more variation all around, better competition in a non stale metagame.

Season 3 introduced AC Penetration as a stat for melee DPS, which again will change the shape of future arena matches. Cloth wearers will have to reevaulate their specs and socket/enchant choices knowing that during a key moment, their opponents will not only be trying to strip them of their buffs via dispel, but also their base AC. Healers will have to up their game as well in responding to possibly increased spike damage on their partners. New Season gear means new, refreshing tactics and lineups that become viable, which keeps competitive PVP exciting and evolving.

Here's what I found on www.wowhead.com:Most Badge of Justice currency rewards are in the ilevel 128-133 range.And you can get crafted items at ilevel 128, too, such as Belt of Blasting.

Care to guess the FIRST raid boss who drops stuff in that ilevel range?None in Kara.None in Gruul's lairNone in SSC until...Lady Vashj

That shouldn't be too surprising, since the first raiders into Kara complained that Kara epics were no better than heroics, and sharded them rather than incur more expense in gems and enchants.

So by the ilevel argument, a prospective raider can farm badges and gear up to the ilevel of Lady Vashj drops without setting foot in a raid instance!

So it seems obvious to me that gear progression in WoW is not linear in raiding, either.

And from another angle, ilevel is not always the best measure of gear. For example, Frozen Shadoweave is generally regarded among the top few gear pieces for certain class / spec combinations. And yes, at one point my shadow priest had the top-notch Frozen Shadoweave set and just-turned-70 questing greens equipped at the same time...

It seems obvious to me that the ideas of gear ilevel and gear progression are general design ideas, but by no means hard-and-fast rules.

In reading through the posts and comments (excellent discussion by the way and fantastic site), I remain confused. Is everyone discussing the same issue?

Everyone agrees the PvP and PvE are wildly different games in WoW. Is the true problem in this debate is whether players who use PvP rewards to raid are bypassing the time investment to gear up through the PvE ladder, effectively 'skipping' steps?

To the extent that happens (which I have not experienced to be a routine on my server), my observation has been that players require equipment that has not dropped in raid, or they are changin specs and wish to continue raiding witout starting from the bottom of the ladder or are stepping in cover an empty space.

I have not observed a player in PvP epics trying to raid. Shucks, my guild won't permit a member to raid if they do not have a PvE-friendly spec and appropriate gear. I know that I (warlock) will not be permitted to raid if I come to the meeting stone with less than 10% spell hit from gear. That is not something you easily get from PvP gear. (see below)

A player with poor PvE/raiding skills cannot piggyback through Kara. If they do not have the skills, DBM will not save them. 10-person raids have stressed the individual contribution of a raid member, more so than 40-person content.

Scrubvert has a fantastic point as well -- itemization on PvP gear is not exactly PvE friendly in all situations. How much is that +resiliance worth in your Prince fight?

@dazanna: any guild that invests time into learning kara will eventually clear it. There comes a point, a critical mass if you will, were the gear one gets from the earlier bosses help down later bosses. Hell, kara even has a grinding section to get your rep levels up (good for repairs and the rings).

In the end, the PvE reward is not about the loot; it's about the boss kill. The first time a boss goes down is fantastic. I remember my first Prince kill and how the prot tank picked up Prince at 27% after our bear (MT) went down. I have no idea what dropped.

Same thing with PvP -- the parts of the game you remember are when you do something amazing and bad ass, not when you spent your honor to get those purple cuffs (then rushed out for your +stamina enchant (:D).

Final note: the PvE/PvP dichotomy limits the discussion of the game. There are more ways to play than this dualistic model suggests. Rp realms. Fishing. Fishing in AV (I always admired that rogue /sigh).

Raiding gives just as many people cheap and easy epics as PvP does. Almost all raiding guilds use raid zones they've beaten to quickly gear up new or alt members. One night of raiding Karazhan combined with one night of raiding Zul'aman can easily get a player the PvE equivalent of Season 2 gear. With the introduction of personal arena ratings Blizzard basically stopped the PvP side of selling spots to get the best weapons. Yet they've never felt the need to stop guilds from selling raid spots. I only mention this because I got a random tell yesterday not from a gold farmer but from a guild in shattrath selling spots to get items from Lady Vashj.

I'll post the exact same comment I posted on Megan's Blog, Out Of Mana:

I just dont understand why most people care.

As a Raider, you shouldnt care if your friend is getting PvP gear. Once you're both on the same playing field, neither of you will preform like the other in your respective categories.

Player A wont preform well in the arena without the resilience and stamina of Player B.

Player B wont preform as well in a raid without the +hit and increased crit of Player A.

People are delving too much into this. Who cares that PvP gear is easier to get than you PvE. Blizzard separated them for a reason.

Now, if I really wanted to get in it (which I dont) I will be looking at it from a PvPers point of view. As Megan has stated, there will always be something PvP has that PvE doesnt. That is a changing Metagame.

In PvP players will always be faced against other players. There will always be different tactics taken against different teams. And there will always be change. As Megan said in her previous post, there is a drastic difference between S1,S2, and S3.

In S1, coordinated burst was prime, and 4DPS was perfected when introduced by Clan Hex.

S2 rolls around and 4DPS teams jump out as one of the dominant matrices at the start of the season. New variations of it appear, and everything is going all an well.

I can do a simple time line like this for every bracket of the arena simply because they have all changed.

Sorry for having to do that, but I am a PvPer at heart. However, I will always view all portions of WoW with no bias. I will always try and approach a situation looking through both a PvP and PvE point of view.

@Doeg, you are entirely correct. I myself was debating whether I should shard my Crystalforge Leggings and pick up the new heroic badge reward legs.

Heroic badge loots are an entirely different matter though IMO. In 2.3 blizzard put in both ZA and new heroic loot with ilevels equal to and better than tier 5 instances. According to the developers, this is because 10 mans should be "seperate but equal" progression wise with 25-mans. This does make a lot of the gear from SSC/TK obsolete, and in a few slots (trinkets) replaces nearly everything in the game. I do think this is different from PvP rewards though because at the very least to obtain these items you have to do some form of PvE progression, whether its normal instances > heroics or Kara > ZA.

When people like myself refer to "ilevel 141" and such, its mostly just referring to an instance and its drops. Karazhan is ilevel 115, The Eye and SSC are ilevel 128, BT and Hyjal are ilevel 141. Its mainly just a naming convention that makes it easier to compare gear. Arena season 3 sets are all ilevel 146, which simply means they have more budget points than your typical BT/Hyjal item. ilevel is not a measure of how good an item is (for example, the DST off Gruul is an ilevel 125 trinket but is generally considered to be the best melee trinket in the game), rather a measure of how many budget points it has (and generally where it comes from).

And really, most of this argument comes down to looks. I want my tier gear that took 9 months of PvE progression to look different than someone who logs on for 50 minutes a week to play 10 games.

@And really, most of this argument comes down to looks. I want my tier gear that took 9 months of PvE progression to look different than someone who logs on for 50 minutes a week to play 10 games.

Ah, there we have it. Hurting e-peen. Check.

Well, if it stops you and the likeminded from wasting all that electronical ink and coming up with all these whacky ideas on how to "fix" a progression system on the sole ground that isn't the one you've chosen, I'm all for it. Heck go one step further like I advocated a couple of days ago. Make the tooltip colour crimson instead of purple, and call it, dunno, Battler or Duellist instead of Epic.

Regarding the comments about the difference between "a team that loses 10 games a week and a newbie raiding guild", I'd like to mention that the 2 are not as different as some people suggest. Remember that in the raid instances, you don't need to beat bosses to get epic gear, and in fact some of the world drop items that you can find on the trash are better then the gear dropped on bosses.

In this sense, there's not much of a difference between a new arena team that can't beat anyone, and a new raiding guild that can't beat any bosses. Both will improve their gear for their appropriate play style without really progressing much in it.

"Well, if it stops you and the likeminded from wasting all that electronical ink and coming up with all these whacky ideas on how to "fix" a progression system on the sole ground that isn't the one you've chosen, I'm all for it."

Again I will ignore your blatent Ignoratio Elenchi argument (but in all seriousness, the more logical fallacies you use the less I respect you or your arguments).

PVP IS NOT A PROGRESSION SYSTEM

There is no possible way you can argue that jumping from quest greens to ilevel 141s is progression. Its going from the bottom right to the top. That is the biggest problem. Why should someone who has put nothing into the game compared to a raider get gear that looks exactly the same with very similar stats for much less of a time investment? Is this the epeen of a raider, hell yes. But it is this way for everything in life. If you accomplish something you deserve recognition for it, whether its in a game or at a job. Raiding takes a lot more time and a lot more investment for its return as opposed to PvP, shouldn't it have something to show for that?

Arena players get rewards out the ass depending on how good they are. Custom titles, ratings everyone can inspect, 310% speed mounts, etc. What do raiders get to differentiate themselves as doing something special? It used to be tier sets and unique weapon models that everyone recognized as being hard-to-get raiding loot (Ashkandi anyone?). Now those aren't even unique anymore. We don't get snazzy "Slayer of the Betrayer " titles (though that would be a crazy awesome title) or 310% speed flying Flames of Azzinoth to ride around for progressing. Our guilds don't get ranked so people can inspect us and see "hot shit he's in the best guild on the server". We get absolutely nothing unique other than the 50 or 60 Legendaries that will drop in the world. And this is all because Blizzard made the choice to make PvP sets look and itemize nearly the same as their PvE equivalents, except much much easier to get.

I went and checked out your blog (which incidentally reads like something Rush Limbaugh would write). I would suggest that you, who have admitted you have no raiding experience, shut up about "our mindset". No raider is trying to deny you your PvP epics. I'm glad Blizzard is trying to make the "second endgame" (if you played Vanilia beta you would know what that means, but I'm sure you're going to take it out of context) viable for people out there. Raiders just want our epics to be unique so that we can have some sort of accomplishment other than a set that "looks like season 3".

And as I said before, the main problem is in the weapons have the same (if not better) stats than their PvE equivillents, resil included. If Blizard fixed this one huge itemization problem I'm sure a lot less people would be complaining.

And finally, you need to read up on logical fallacies. Generalizing raiders as people who "want everyone in quest blues except themselves" doesn't help you at all.

"Arena players get rewards out the ass depending on how good they are. Custom titles, ratings everyone can inspect, 310% speed mounts, etc. What do raiders get to differentiate themselves as doing something special? It used to be tier sets and unique weapon models that everyone recognized as being hard-to-get raiding loot (Ashkandi anyone?). Now those aren't even unique anymore. We don't get snazzy "Slayer of the Betrayer " titles (though that would be a crazy awesome title) or 310% speed flying Flames of Azzinoth to ride around for progressing. Our guilds don't get ranked so people can inspect us and see "hot shit he's in the best guild on the server". We get absolutely nothing unique other than the 50 or 60 Legendaries that will drop in the world. And this is all because Blizzard made the choice to make PvP sets look and itemize nearly the same as their PvE equivalents, except much much easier to get."

@ Dazanna - They're more similar than everyone's giving it credit for, I think.

Sure, anyone is able to throw a charter together and get into Arena - but anyone can also get a raid of 4 mates together and enter Gruul's Lair to stare at the trash, talking about how one day they'll be there.

The competitive edge of both PvE and PvP is tangible and similar. A team hovering around the 1450 mark for 8 weeks will see as many epics as a struggling raiding guild.

We're forgetting there's mid-tier players in both camps everywhere.

Who we SHOULD be looking at is the guy dripping in TK/BT loot on the back of his Phoenix mount - right beside the guy in full S2 Arena/Honor rewards on the back of his Merc Netherdrake.

Time HELPS both of these people - but at a certain point, skill must count for something. As they say, one does not silly-walk into Black Temple...nor the 2400+ bracket.

Be nit-picky all you like about the iLevel - both of these guys put effort into what they did (weeks of effort), and that's where the similarities end. Attempting to measure them against each other is a silly and fruitless exersise, honestly.

As it happens I agree that making PVP and PVE top gear graphically identical is a mistake, and worse an easily correctable mistake.

But I believe you have gone to far to claim that PVP gear collection is not a progression. People now do go from Quest Greens and blues to S1 gear (ilvl 123), but its hardly like they just join an arena team and suddenly they are all wearing S3 gear (ilvl 146, and requiring a rating of 1850).

Most people start out getting a weapon, a chest, legs, shoulders, etc. After their set, most go on to get rings, kneck, cloaks, gems, potions, mounts, banners, tabards, etc etc.

Even after that progression they begin progressing up the Seasons, gear S1 to S2, S2 to S3. Yes some (few) will jump from s1 to s3, but it not like people have not done the equivalent in PVE as well, also its much more likely they will jump from 140ish PVE gear to the PVP version.

Regardless of those points all of that is a clear progression.

As to the PVE vs PVP gear question, even with the release of S1 we have seen the release of a whole new raiding instance and we are waiting on the release of another one shortly. Also if we check the loot system it very clear that PVE is still ahead of PVP in terms of Ilvl (Cat's Edge is ilvl 151 a full 5 item lvls ahead of the VGG (146)) and this gap will only increase as Sun Well comes out.

From there I should point out, It both natural and healthy to have a good deal of energy put into PVP, the Vast Majority wow players have been in a battle ground. The same cannot be said for a raiding instance even as low on the list as Kara.

That's the most clueless thing you ever uttered on this matter. The thing you fail to grasp is that gear isn't the progression objective, it is a means. Even Rohan recognizes that under loot as investment. Ratings is the progression system.

Why should someone who has put nothing into the game compared to a raider get gear that looks exactly the same with very similar stats for much less of a time investment?

Hello, you can tone down the rethoric, we've been agreeing on this since the beginning.

Raiding takes a lot more time and a lot more investment for its return as opposed to PvP,

That's one of the fallacies you and your ilk keep repeating like a mantra. Rohan just told us he gets an epic every second week in average. Only top arena teams can compete with that, if they also mix BG into this. In terms of /played, you'll have to come with hard facts to justify that "a lot more", sorry.

Arena players get rewards out the ass depending on how good they are. Custom titles, ratings everyone can inspect, 310% speed mounts, etc. What do raiders get to differentiate themselves as doing something special?

And that's a problem with Arena how? Take it up to the suggestion boards, I'll even add a supporting statement, because I am, shockingly, again fully agreeing with you here.

Our guilds don't get ranked so people can inspect us and see "hot shit he's in the best guild on the server".

Yes, there's only WoWJutsu. But at some point in the past, there was only CTprofiles, and finally we got the armory. Go take it up with Blizzard. Again you have my full support here. And, oddly enough, we are agreeing yet again.However, even someone as unconcerned by the top end raiding scene as I am know the name of the top raiding guild (and the following 4) on my server. Something I knew on the previous two servers I was on as well.

I would suggest that you, who have admitted you have no raiding experience,

I haven't done such a thing. I have freely admitted I have no high end progression raiding experience, and have no points on how it should be balanced or tuned. That doesn't mean I have no raiding experience. I've been in the low end part of the progression, that is ZG, AQ20 and MC pre TBC and in Kara since.

No raider is trying to deny you your PvP epics.

The normal raiders do not. Some very loudmouthed and not very polite ones like you do. And if you're not for "fixing" anything but the cosmetic aspect, you're not even part of that group anymore (except you're still loud and not very polite).

Raiders just want our epics to be unique so that we can have some sort of accomplishment other than a set that "looks like season 3".

See above. We are in complete agreement.

And as I said before, the main problem is in the weapons have the same (if not better) stats than their PvE equivillents, resil included. If Blizard fixed this one huge itemization problem I'm sure a lot less people would be complaining.

Remind me where I ever posted anything suggested I'd be opposed to that notion. Because strangely enough, apart from the fact that you obviously cannot stand my tone, we appear to completely agree on every essential point.

And finally, you need to read up on logical fallacies. Generalizing raiders

Make that Tu Quogue, Ad Hominem, and Hasty Generalization. I'm precisely not generalizing raiders but on the contrary very precisely singling out one specific subgroup. And believe it or not, not everything I write is about you or against you or in response to something you personally said or argued (moreso since we actually agree on everything but form).

On second thought, I'll still take that particuliar bait. I blog as what from your viewpoint is necessarily the casual as dirt perspective. I'm not surprised it doesn't appeal to you, nor are you the audience I am writing for. Constructive input I can always use, though. My e-mail addy is in my profile.

What has this to do with the present topic? Simple. Different target audiences, different ecosystems. PvE progression vs arena.

"Well, like they’ve always told the non-raiders, if you don’t raid or aren’t level 70 you can’t have a meaningful point of view on the matter."

(As an interesting side note you then went on to say that only people with 1850 rated arena teams should have an opinion about arena gear)

"...raiders having an issue with arena gear will basically tell you that you have no right to get T6 equivalent through means they don’t approve of. That different progression methods shouldn’t exist, in fact you should either catass your way to Illidan through Kara, Gruul and TK, or you stay in quest blues (just like it was in WoW 1.0). And they will make it known vocally that you shouldn’t really be allowed another method of progression whatsoever."

I fail to remember anyone trying to steal your epics.

Regardless, its pointless to argue, you are correct in saying that we do come from entirely different spectra of the game. So instead I present to you a question in response to your comment.

You argue that PvP is a progression system. I ask you how.

I look at PvP and I fail to see any progression. Whether you come from full Merc with an Armored Netherdrake or just dinged 70 last night you are still getting the same exact gear. There is no progression ladder. There are no prereq gear sets. The only difference is the time it takes you to get gear.

PvE on the other hand is a progression system. You have to do (and farm) the lower instance to reach the higher one. You have to clear Kara/Gruul before you do SSC, have to kill Kael to get into Hyjal, etc.

So looking at the two, how can PvP be a progression system?

And as a final aside, high end raiders are forced to PvP. Every person in an Archimonde raid must have a PvP trinket (2 minute trinkets are required for healers and decursers typically) and thanks to the obscene amount of AoE damage and poory itemized tier sets a lot of players need to get arena gear to meet the health requirement for BT (8.5k unbuffed, 10k prefered for fights like Naj'entus). The two are not quite as exclusive as people seem to think.

You do realize that it's considered extremely bad form to comment someone else's blog on a third person's own place, right?

Now again, since you seem to wanting to focus on me and ignore everyone else who says the same things in much nicer ways and probably better English than I will ever manage to muster:

The PvP progression isn't about gear. Gear is the means, not the end.Once you get over that mental gap, you will find we actually have a common ground.

PvE on the other hand is a progression system. You have to do (and farm) the lower instance to reach the higher one. You have to clear Kara/Gruul before you do SSC, have to kill Kael to get into Hyjal, etc.The Chinese Illidan first who did it mostly in T3 appear to disagree with you.

On the PvP trinket, we are (gasp) again in agreement. You should be able to get all gear relevant to your activity of choice through that activity, not through going to one you loathe.

I've been what others have considered a hardcore PvP player and PvE player in the past... for me the PvP is very fun, but the PvE was always more rewarding (made alot of people who became RL friends from PvE guilds that I expect to keep for some time).

From a PvE guild perspective, when the gear isn't dropping, which it never does. Many of us will go to whatever means possible to get the gear that helps the guild progress. Sometimes it's grinding mats and mobs and farming instances (sometimes rather fun if you set a speed challenge for your group), sometimes it means grinding honor and/or arena points.

We call PvP rewards 'welfare epics' because they take so little time invested, little effort, little skill to obtain... that they feel free. Crafted epics could fall into this category. Badge rewards too for more progressed guilds.

Why will the average WoW player decide to go for the 'welfare' PvP epic over the 'welfare' PvE one? No need to work with a group for PvP (though it is necessary for higher ranks/ratings). You get rewarded just for trying in PvP. Guaranteed gear, for minimal effort and time invested.

Do we have fun? Hell yeah! I'd rather farm a PvP epic over grinding for stupid crafted gear any day! As many have pointed out, not all classes have the luxury of choice though.

But in the end, the very common, easy to get PvP epics are 'welfare epics' because of the sense of accomplishment tied to them. If you PvE AND PvP, it's easy to see. The 310% mounts aren't 'welfare mounts' because they took skill and time and strategy and teamwork to obtain.

Let's face the facts. The welfare epics of WoW are the PvP rewards with no personal rating requirement. You walk up and buy them. You don't have to win, you aren't proud, but they're a means to an end. (As Gwaendar has pointed out)

Many progression oriented raiders are pragmatists. Path of least resistance and all that. Which is why many of the guilds breaking into BT and Hyjall had a significant number of their dps buying 3-4 pieces of S3/S2 gear the day it started. In many cases it was better than the T4 stuff they'd yet to replace through bad luck, and alot easier to get than the badge of justice rewards. (If they retroactively gave badges based on Kara clears... yeah, we'd be all up in the badge rewards, but such guild's are beyond Kara and not going to waste much time farming it) What bothers many on the raiding side of the fence, is the necessity to do this! The gear is FAR from optimal, but better than nothing. The new badge rewards and ZA are a huge step in the right direction. It's too little too late for many though.

The looks should be different though. Armor models are based upon the instance they come from. There's an aspect of lore involved. Arena's should do the same thing! They should add a new Arena zone with each season, and base the models around the theme for that arena. (Think: Sweet looking battle-worn ancient armor models based upon the Ruins of Lorderon)

Like Gwaendar has stated (and probably continue to state) the gear is the means, not the end.

No matter how hard I try. No matter how good I become. I will never reach 1850+ without adequate gear. Ever.

Yes, the gear does get better, but so does skill. A team at 2200+ with aiming for that 310% drake and that great title do Not come easy.

@ Rohan - Please. Get off the whole losing vs wiping thing.

Yes, losing a arena game is less damaging then wiping on a boss. Player A will receive some arena points, while Player B has to pay a hefty repair bill.

However, (And I know a lot of PvE players hate to come to this realization) PvE content is Static.

I does not change. At all. Your Kael encounter has two outcomes. Wiping or looting. You will face Kael at all times. Kael will not be a warrior wielding a two hander or a druid with massive +healing. He will stay the same.

PvEers, with enough investment, will clear BT and Hyjal if their guild doesnt fall apart.

"However, (And I know a lot of PvE players hate to come to this realization) PvE content is Static.

I does not change. At all. Your Kael encounter has two outcomes. Wiping or looting. You will face Kael at all times. Kael will not be a warrior wielding a two hander or a druid with massive +healing. He will stay the same."

In all honesty, is Arena that much different? You see a warrior, you know he's going to Charge/Hamstring/MS 99% of the time. You see a shaman with Earth Shield, you know he's a healbot and needs to be locked down. You see a Mage with Ice Shield, its a good bet he's Frost.

Arena PvP is just as much a formula as PvE. You look at the other group, chose a first focus target, second target, who to lock down, etc. Yes, each match might be different in the details, but in general you can go into a match with a strat for whatever type of team you may come across. You know what classes are going to spec a certain way when you reach the higher brackets and can adjust yourself accordingly, just as raiders adjust themselves based on what fight they're going to.

World PvP is completely random. Battlegrounds are sometimes. But pretending Arena is "completely random" compared to PvE is a little missleading.

And Kael is still one of the most difficult fights in the game, even after the nerf. Getting the Bracers off Winterchill is no mean feat.

PvE change comes from the new instances. Sunwell will be a nice change for PvEers. However, you will wipe, and wipe, and wipe some more. Then you'll learn the encounter, put KJ on farm status, and reap the rewards.

You go into a raid knowing you will receive epics on your terms. You dont have to wait. You can down KJ on the first night of attempts.

PvP is always changing. There is no set way to defeat every class/composition out there. In case you havent noticed, things get balanced around PvP.

As I said before, 4DPS was dominate for the end of S1 and beginning to middle of S2, now its not.

Lets review.

- PvP is Dynamic. PvE is Static.

- PvP has easily obtainable rewards. PvE Doesnt.

- A full S3, 2200+ player will always preform better than a T6 wearing raider.A full T6 Mage will alwaysout DPS a full S3 Mage.

- Those with access to high end PvE rewards will preform better in PvP than a pure PvPer.Some PvP rewards will sometimes be better than their PvE counterparts in certain situations. (i.e. the trinkets in Hyjal)

- Unanswered question: Why, why, why does one group care about the others rewards based on the above points.

"You go into a raid knowing you will receive epics on your terms. You dont have to wait. You can down KJ on the first night of attempts."

I'm sorry, but you've lost me here.

If anything, PvP is the guaranteed epic source. You get epics for losing. you can get ilevel 141s for losing 10 games a week, it just takes a while. You are gaurenteed to get your points whether you try your hardest or /dance in the middle of the arena naked.

PvE requires you to progress in order to obtain any new gear. You have to kill a boss in order to see those epics. you don't get anything for losing the encounter (i.e. wiping) other than a repair bill and repops. Even an instance on farm status causes wipes. Hell my guild wiped on Shade of Aran tonight (damn flame wreaths) and we're nearly done with the game!

And to answer your question... well you actually answered it yourself.

"In case you havent noticed, things get balanced around PvP."

PvP is what the game is being balanced around, and that drastically affects PvE. The reason I'm a dead weight healer in BT/Hyjal? Because 4 piece Tier 5 was "too powerful in arena". The reason BoF got nerfed and made Vashj much more difficult? Because it was "OP in Arena". You PvPers and the constant adjustments required to "balance" have a huge effect on raiding, so its kinda natural that we give a shit about it.

As for why we care about the rewards, that boils down mainly to the fact that we would like to be seen for our accomplishments just like the high end arena players insist on their titles. We want our gear to reflect on the time that we've put into the game just as much as the PvPers do.

Lol, because I hate WSG. If it was AB or AV, I'd probably have them by now.

It's actually kind of sad, because I don't normally PvP for rewards, but I haven't gotten a plate healing bracer yet. I was using some moonkin dps bracers and only upgraded to leather healing bracers last week. Then I noticed that I had about 10k honor, so I went to Champion's Hall hoping the bracers required AB, AV, or EotS marks. Sadly, they required WSG marks. :(

I'd like to point back to my last comment. While yes, you don't get anything from a boss if you wipe on it, you are not in fact denied of getting anything at all. While a raid group that can't beat any bosses may not get the boss' loot, they will still be getting world drop epics from the raid.

Given the earlier comment about the Chinese raid group, I bet that a raid group who could never beat any of the bosses could still gear themselves up with some really nice BT level stuff, just by grinding mobs in raids until they get all the world drops they needed.

And after that, they may even be able to start beating the earlier raid bosses for their loot. Which would be similar to said "loser" arena group getting their S2s or S3s and being able to start beating some of their weaker opponents.

Why do I go and earn the so-called "welfare epics"?Time management, plain and simple.

Because of RL obligations I cannot chop two 5-hour blocks out of my schedule to raid under the current combination of design, lockout, and typical guild management of raid scheduling. I looked at the raid schedules of several of the top guilds on my server a while back, and it just isn't possible for me to seriously raid.

So I'm glad that alternate progression paths are available. Before TBC, I was level 60 for a couple of months and on the verge of dropping because I was dead-ended in PvE (couldn't raid) and made it to Blood Guard about the time raiders flooded the BGs and pwned the PvP crowd with their gear.

Let me voice my strong agreement with other PvP-ers:PvP is all about gear! Skill is tested when there is reasonable parity in gear.

And I'm still surprised at what appears to me to be such "ilevel fury" coming from PvE raiders!

As a shadow priest in PvE, the Vengeful Gladiator set does not have a SINGLE PIECE that is an upgrade for my CRAFTED EPICS (Frozen Shadoweave + Spellstrike) -- epics available since TBC came out of the box! The top shadow priest on my server, over 1300 shadow damage, endgame PvE raider, is still in Frozen Shadoweave!The Vindicator Bracers? Same - my crafted Havoc - a blue - is better in spell damage.My best spell damage ring? The Halloween caster ring!My glove and offhand upgrade path? Badge gear. (PvE welfare)The only piece that is a serious upgrade is the Spellblade, which I'm working towards (though the PvP caster offhand is worse than the green I have in the bank.)

My warrior? Will you longtime raiders want me to tank for you in full Vengeful Gladiator Battlegear?No, of course not.

So other than the inexplicable art problem on the gear, I fail to see why raiders should care. From my vantage point, it appears to be misplaced ilevel envy.

After all, they win in this situation. They can jump into PvP BG queue anytime and get a "Welfare Epic", but PvP-ers don't have that luxury...

"PvP is what the game is being balanced around, and that drastically affects PvE. The reason I'm a dead weight healer in BT/Hyjal? Because 4 piece Tier 5 was "too powerful in arena". The reason BoF got nerfed and made Vashj much more difficult? Because it was "OP in Arena". You PvPers and the constant adjustments required to "balance" have a huge effect on raiding, so its kinda natural that we give a shit about it.

As for why we care about the rewards, that boils down mainly to the fact that we would like to be seen for our accomplishments just like the high end arena players insist on their titles. We want our gear to reflect on the time that we've put into the game just as much as the PvPers do."

Funny, a PVP'er can say the same thing about PVE. In fact, PVE Raiding and the immense iLVL advantage Raiders had preTBC is the whole reason Resilience was introduced as the clutch PVP stat to begin with. You know, Resilience, the thing that eats up quite a bit of stat allocation in the so-called iLVL 141 stuff you are so bitter about. So here we have a whole PVP stat created and balanced around.. PVE raiders!

BTW, 2006 is ---> way. No more BWL/AQ40 advantage over PVP gear.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure you're "seen" for your accomplishments. I checked Draka's realm forums, Limited Edition (your guild) is all over in the listings of progression threads, and generally the people on the server know what you guys are up to (even rooting for you to be the first full clear BT guild).

On WowJutsu, you've got el numero uno star on your server for progression, switch it up to worldwide (US+EU) and you're.. on page 5. Out of like tons of pages. Honestly, what more could you want? I could understand if all of a sudden WowJutsu started totalling up PVP epics into the ranking formula, but that's not the case

And finally.. not to be mean, I know you're only 18 (blogger profile).. but there's more to life then approval of others, if you really really center everything around self pride and peer worth, I'll save you the therapy money fees now instead of 10 years down the line---reevaulate your character.

--

One last thing, in re: to Tier gear looking like PVP gear. It's the other way around---PVP gear looks like Tier gear. Tier gear comes first. BT came out before Season 3. T5 was being looted way before Season 2. The time period between a PVE patch and a Season start is oh.. what 5-6 months? That's 5-6 months of you being a unique snowflake (lawl). Get over it.

I really find this Ilvl argument to be amusing. I laughed at the first PVP defense of the situation (and most of the rest) and I've laughed at most of the PVE defense posts too.

The point is that I've seen only one thing that I can really see PVE having real grounds to complain about. getting Nerfed so that there can be PVP balance. yeah, PVP gear Resilience is a Huge amount of the pie for PVP grear, but half of the changes I've seen come down the pipe Nerf something because the PVP advantage is too great. What does this do to those of us who Raid, and have no interest in PVP (yeah I've done it, but the rewards were better at the level.) You can have a guild that one week clears a raid, with little margin, but clears it, and could clear it again without the change, who all of a sudden wipe time and again because our abilities/gear were changed. Think of the brand new S3 team (lets pretend they all just got to 70) so no arena points, but they have pugged enough bgs to get full S1 gear. If they are a good team its possible for them to get the 1850+ raiting if they work at it and get into S3 gear, and even the rating required ones, quickly. What would happen to them if suddenly S1 gear was nerfed because it (hypothetically) was too over powered for kara or Gruuls. suddenly its almost impossible for them to win against S2/S3 geared opponents. the rating falls, and it becomes harder.

Now that is a hypothetical situation, but I would be willing to wager all the gold/items I have that most PVP'ers would be up in arms about this change.

O, and Megan "Hi Rohan, you are looking at PVP with PVE glasses on. Please stop, it's rather silly." Made me laugh so hard... How about this... stop looking at PVE progression/reward with PVP glasses on... No? didn't think so.

@gwa...

Arena players get rewards out the ass depending on how good they are. Custom titles, ratings everyone can inspect, 310% speed mounts, etc. What do raiders get to differentiate themselves as doing something special?

And that's a problem with Arena how? Take it up to the suggestion boards, I'll even add a supporting statement, because I am, shockingly, again fully agreeing with you here.

How about we call it right of first existence. Arena was INTRODUCED after the Raids and Rewards for them. And it unbalanced things, so.. yeah That is as good a reason for it to be a problem with arena as not

And to look at Megan's comment that we had 5-6 months to be unique before arena gear came out... Yeah, and we would like to keep it that way.

This has become a long and rambling post. but i have one last thing to comment on. PVP is NOT progression in any sense of the word I have seen. (before you begin the flame... read on please) Yes, you can get better at the arena, and once you bridge the gear gap (which somehow isn't a reward for you... but ok ill take it) you can get better, but you cant necessarily continue to progress through the ranks to become 2200+ rated. Progression, IE to incrementally move towards an inevitable(or nearly so) target doesn't fit something where you can become so easily tied down. raiders progress towards a goal (currently BT hijal) each week we hone a skill set (teamwork, which is also honed in Arena, at least when taken seriously), but we also get collectively (the raid) closer to that goal. Assuming the raid can stick together long enough and have basic competence, given enough time they will reach BT. the same can't be said for the Arena where there could always be someone better than you who keeps you out of the high end rewards.

as for the season 4 gear debate... why not make them upgrades to the S3 gear (ie you need the S3 piece to get the S4 piece) lower the overall cost of getting S4, if you have S3, In that way a new team could still compete competitively, for the most part, but probably wouldn't make it into the top positions, you could still probably get a good portion of S3 by end of season, and some of S4 as a fresh player, and you would have some actual progression.

How about we call it right of first existence. Arena was INTRODUCED after the Raids and Rewards for them. And it unbalanced things, so.. yeah That is as good a reason for it to be a problem with arena as not

And again this stunning attitude of "if I don't have something, I'd rather have nobody else have it rather than demand equal treatment". If arena exposed weaknesses in raiding, why shoot the messenger?

I could also argue that you have had everything there was for over two years, and in the sense of some twisted notion of fairness, you would deserve to be the underdog for the next two years. But that would be responding in kind.

Get raiding fixed. Get the gear looks changed, their colour changed to crimson instead of purple, their name changed from epic to duellist gear. Hand out titles like Demonbane for killing Mag, to Hope of the Quel'Dorei for vanquishing Archimonde. Make raid loot all token based, allow redeeming tokens from tier to tier under the condition that you have at least one boss of the higher tier killed. Add a free repair bot midway and post-clear in the raiding instances. Instead of the normal loot tables where purples get replaced by tokens change them to flasks and elixirs. Or whatever other improvements to gameply and enjoyment you can come up with which makes more sense in the raiding context.And if you post these on the EU suggestion boards, mail me the link, I'll lend whatever tiny support I can to every single positive, game-enhancing idea you have.There is absolutely zero needs to address any of the issues by removing something from a group of player, or making it harder for them to participate in the aspect of the game they enjoy most.

As for balance, your point would be stronger if there hadn't ever been, say, mages crying for nerf warlocks because they out-DPS them in raids, or, more apropos to Rohan's blog, Retribution pallies clamoring for Holy pallies to get nerfed so that they would suddenly look less unappealing in raids.

And yet, I have to spend I don't know how many hours grinding heroic instances for PvP gems (because only two PvP-specific gems are craftables, and neither fits on a red socket which Blizzard love to throw around the PvP sets), Badges of Justice (because Blizzard thought PvPers don't do enough PvE content as it is) and gear (this is more of a healer issue, where the two best PvP necks are only available via Heroic and Raid), grinding gold for enchants (which, believe it or not, PvP items still need) and grinding reputation (becuase I really need those enchants head enchants).