Posted 2 years ago on March 11, 2012, 8:37 p.m. EST by Skippy2
(485)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

for this movement. As we pile insult after insult on each other, instead of attempting to find issues we can agree on. How can we inspire the 99% when we treat each other so badly? If you disagree with someone and just insult them, you do not win the argument you just harden the heart of the other person. This is not a game. Scoring verbal points for your "side" is meaningless. A Republican can learn from a Democrat. A Socialist can learn from a Conservative. Open your mind or all is lost. I fear it is already too late.

92 Comments

There are plenty of places all around the internet for trolls to be trollish with each other. Mediaite is huge for trolls. But the reason they come here and say such desperately silly things is because of the power of OWS. Mediaite isn't even a power within it's own insular world, but OWS is changing the debate on a national scale. That's why they're so desperate to continuously change the subject and try to redefine OWS as a bunch of lazy welfare queens. I don't see too many libtrolls around here. Mostly conservatrolls. And that should tell you all you need to know about the message OWS is sending.

Partisanship is becoming more extreme with each election. The two parties have the lock on political power and they encourage the extremes. Meanwhile they both govern pretty much the same way: constant war, shaking down lobbyists and corporations for cash, and taking freedoms in the name of security.

The trouble is that a lot of people buy into it too. There are too many lemmings, and not enough people waking up and saying "Enough! Let's agree to disagree on our differences and compromise on what we can." Instead we see the lead-up to another Civil War. All it takes is for one crazy Christian to start raining bullets on some town hall or someone assassinating a rich guy to start a civil war, this time over wealth or politics rather than state and human rights...

Oh for crying out loud!! Where else to express ourselves in a nonviolent verbal way? Besides, I enjoy all the rhetoric on here as well as the "altercations".
If you look closely, sit back and read a bit, you will see how rationale and logic usually comes to the fore front on here. Also, it is good to exchange thoughts, ideas, and let loose a bit. I for one enjoy it here. Besides, I just might get my biased opinions knocked around a little bit by someone who can open my eyes to more understanding...So...what's wrong with that?
If you have no hope, as you state, then you are part of the 0% and I do truly feel sorry for you...since I know for a fact that where there is life there is always HOPE!!!

Be patient. The trouble with the youth is they think change happens fast. It usually is a slow process so be happy to sow the seeds that you will probably never see blossom. The future will see what we sow is all we can ask for. Solidarity.

[While] our principal men . . . are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world . . . , the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism. . . . By thus dividing voters, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us . . . . Thus, by discrete action, we can secure all that has been so generously planned and successfully accomplished."

The Bankers Manefesto was created in 1892.

Does that answer your question "How can we inspire the 99% when we treat each other so badly?"

All the arguments going on are purposefully designed. Just refuse to get involved in them. To do so would be to fall right into the intentional plan designed to sow disunity and discord.

"All ye who enter here, Abandon Hope" When will we stop spining our wheels and pick a direction? Every night I come home from work and read this forum. Every night the same arguments and insults are thrown like monkeys slinging poo. Tell me, when will we form a plan for 2012 elections?

The "Boss Hogs" use labels to divide the citizens. This causes us to argue with each other, leaving them free to do as they wish. Unite and vote out every Incumbent you can. This country belongs to us. No one should be allowed to be a Professional Politician.

I have read the posts left since my original statement. I'd like to thank those who left positive,informative comments and links. I wonder if the 1% fight each other as much as we do. I have met Democrats, Republicans, Socialists, Libertarians and Anarchists at several demonstrations. They each expressed a desire to end the Wall st/Corporate strangle hold on our country. Abe Lincoln once said," A house divided can not stand". This applies to the OWS movement. We are divided. It is up to each of us to put aside our hatred for "the other guy" and stand together against our true enemy. Remember the old saying,"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Divided. Think again my friend. I'm not divided, and I stood with ten of thousands to hundreds of thousands of these undivided people. We are Unified in cause. There is income inequality like we have never seen before in this country. Everyone seriously in the OWS movement agrees.

Take heart, Skippy (may I call you Skippy?). Re: inspiring the 99% - Are the insults you refer to things you've read in this forum? If so, may I suggest that if you haven't already done so, participate in an action. That should be something that might reinvigorate your spirit. All is not lost. We are in the infancy of something that will become wonderful, and YOU, friend are a part of it. You are a force for change. You have heart and determination for helping in the creation of possibilties for positive change. It's in you and and don't you ever let anyone or anything extinguish that heart, that determination. Stay strong, Skippy. You are a part of something very big.

Never fear Skippy2. The problem lies not so much in our anonymity but the fact that too many subjects are discussed (and this cannot be helped). Check out my new thread on OWS Decision Time (re Noam Chomsky) - I do not treat the issue as a game, and from the bulk of responses I have had elsewhere to my postings, those who reply are not point scoring either. Hence some of us must be doing something right!

It is all a battle for the hearts and minds of WE THE SHEEPLE. Critical thinking skills don't matter anymore. Logical arguments don't matter anymore. Well-reasoned and intelligent debate based on facts don't matter anymore. WE THE SHEEPLE have been intentionally dumbed-down for decades in a purposeful effort to reduce WE THE SHEEPLE to a near-catatonic state of mindless robots ready to receive ANYTHING pushed out over the airwaves including Jerry Springer debauchery spectacles, The Bachelor/Bachelorette infantile drool, COPS Police State fascination, and Paris Hilton mental meltdown.

Don't you get it? Don't you understand what has happened and why? Don't you see why politicians have to talk on a 3rd grade conversation level just so WE THE SHEEPLE can understand them? Don't you see why all they do is insult their opponents and never discuss issues?

WE THE SHEEPLE have been programmed to comprehend on a child's level of understanding.

This did not happen by accident.

And it will continue. Because the Power-Elite don't want an educated, erudite general population. They don't want people who can understand what these control-freaks have done to them and how they have subtlety manipulated their minds with mind-control messages and childish programming fodder. They don't want a mass of people that can pose a threat to their corrupt, greedy status quo by actually understanding how their minds have been programmed for decades.

OMG, Underdog, you said what I have been trying to convey to "the sheeple" for years!!! (love that word) Adam Curtis of BBC explored this problem in his brilliant and informative documentary The Century of the Self (link to film is on the bottom right) http://inspinwetrust.blogspot.com/2010/01/century-of-self.html

I got so many things to write about - it's mind boggling! I'd be curious to get your opinion about views expressed in my blog. There's a space for comments below each article, thank you
http://inspinwetrust.blogspot.com

I read Weapons of Mass Instruction, and I highly recommend it to everyone. My question is now that I am aware that I've been dumbed down....how do I reverse it and reeducate myself? Does anyone have suggestions (not vague pseudo intellectual ones)

I have a few ideas, but you might think them vague pseudo intellectual ones.

As a start, greatly reduce any and all mainstream TV. Start watching C-SPAN broadcasts of Congress in action such as floor discussions when they are discussing pending legislation. Committee hearings are also broadcast periodically. This will seem VERY boring at first compared to the normal broadcast poison, but then, the more you watch it, it will become fascinating. Real-life drama on a national scale. It also shows you that not all assumptions about government are correct.-- and that some of them are.

The author gives a list of skills/abilities an educated person should know. The problem is how do I go actually learning about these things.
"1.dialectics
2.the ability to define problems independently, to avoid slavish de
pendence on official definitions.
3.The ability to scan masses of irrelevant information and to
quickly extract from the sludge whatever is useful.
4.The apility to conceptualize.
5.The ability to reorganize information into new patterns which
enable a different perspective than the customary.
6. he possession of a mind fluent in moving among different
modes of thought: deductive, inductive, heuristic, intuitive, et al.
7.Facility in collaboration with a partner, or in teams.
8.Skill in the discussion of issues, problems or techniques.
9.Skill in rhetoric. Convincing others your course is correct. "

I think one of the most lamentable indicators of mental decline has been the loss of critical-thinking skills. One of the chief causes of this, it has been put forth, is television and computers. Both are mediums that provide, essentially, a one-way view of things. In other words, you can't argue with a screen. It feeds you the information, and you do not have the opportunity to debate with it as to whether what it is advocating has any validity or not. Furthermore, it lends itself perfectly as a propaganda tool -- the most obvious example being TV advertising -- that is designed to appeal to subconscience desires rather than the rational intellect. Computer programs can be designed to program people in a way that simply dumps information directly into the mind without the mind having any opportunity to "defend itself".

So, yes, joining debate teams/clubs and doing anything that allows for the use of formal logic, the detection of logical fallacies, and the development and improvement of critical-thinking skills is to be encouraged. Such skills are so rare these days, that such a person will be so completely conspicuous that they will immediately garner amazement (and probably hatred) on the part of the common herd.

Some of it you can get from books. But that is like the difference between theoretical knowledge and applied knowledge gained from actual experience. You can study and learn all of the logical fallacies, for example, in a book or online. But until you actually apply that knowledge in the forensic arena by detecting the fallacies being presented, and then providing effective, logical, and factual counter-arguments to win your opponent over to your (presumably) objective search for truth, you are kinda like a car with the transmission disengaged -- lots of potential but not going anywhere.

FYI, as you probably already know, most people are NOT logical/rational and are much more interested in winning an argument (to prevent a blow to their ego) than any objective search for truth.

The human animal is VERY flawed.

FYI, here is a link to a list of the most common logical fallacies that people commonly commit every day. Mastery of these would place you in a very small population of people who can be simultaneously admired and dispised.

Debate is a good test of skill. But a reasoning individual need not know how to debate unless for defense of a belief. What individuals really need to know is how to keep an open mind and fact check. To know how to find truth in any argument or proposal. To see inherent good and to see manipulation. These are thinking reasoning skills.

No no not at all. Debate is a good exercise as it helps one learn to be flexible. A great debater will be able to successfully argue a point that they do not believe in a point or belief that they actually hate. Why is this a good skill? It teaches one about perspective. If you can understand where someone is coming from you understand somewhat the process of their thinking. This gives you an edge when taking in anyone's information. You can see direction and intent more clearly. But it all starts with an open mind and an ability to weigh.

Yes. What you call an open mind I call objectivity -- the practice of using one's "third eye" to view oneself as an objective phenomenon, thus freeing oneself from emotional bias and clouding the rational thinking process. It is a technique to be used when needed, and not a lifestyle to be adopted, as the latter can have serious consequences and result in personality disorder known as "schizoid" (not schizophrenic) or, in layman's terms, becoming a "robot".

Well I don't think keeping an open mind or being objective requires turning off of emotion. That is dangerous that leads to sociopath type behavior and thinking. I am thinking more on the lines of being able to understand another view point by understanding motivation education background experience and emotion. To understand where a person is coming from is an intuitive process that relies on understanding emotion as well as environment and background. It is incredibly complex. Empathy and sympathy play large part in being able to understand another perspective.

Having very advanced listening and communication skills is critical to what you are talking about. I tend to believe that humans, in general, tend to be so fundamentally flawed in their day-to-day reasoning skills, as they interact with others, that they need to have some type of skill or technique that they can use to help them put their personal emotional biases aside temporarily, so that they can actually observe objectively the interaction between the two parties. Otherwise I think the internal chatter can contribute to communication failure and waste of time.

Again, I emphasize this is a temporary technique to be used as needed, and not something to be permanently incorporated into one's personality (unless one wishes to start acting like Star Trek's android character "Data").

Listening is an art. You need not disconnect internal chatter to do it. You need to direct your internal chatter to the job of listening. Internal chatter can be a distraction if you can not control it this is a process that takes dedication and years of conscious effort. The thing about all of this is getting past distractions to focus your attention. You can be focused and yet aware of your surroundings too. This is also conscious effort and practice. The Brain is complex and mostly untapped as to it's abilities.

DK, my hat is off to you on this one. As someone who as been accused of poor listening skills over the years (not the least of which from my wife :-), I have tried to hone the "third eye" technique, as I have called it, to a high degree. I have practiced it as a technique for probably 30 years. I have personally found it invaluable in certain situations.

I'm glad you have something that works for you. But I just couldn't give this valuable tool up. It is a key tool in my toolbox that I use on a very frequent basis to gain as close to absolute clarity as I know how.

Yes, it is more than disgusting. It is criminal. But there's no actual law against it (that I am aware of).

What a surprise.

Think this topic worthy of an OP? I have read others already on these forums. I just don't think it necessarily gets the attention/discussion it deserves. Technically, I went a bit off-topic from the OP above. Just couldn't help myself.

If you measure the movement by what goes on at this forum I don't think you get a very accurate picture of what the movement is all about. The heart, soul and core of this movement is still in the streets and parks of the large, small and middling communities of this nation.

It's not that these occupations or their general assemblies are faultless. Far from it and they are full of crisis, But I have never seen the kind of insults cast about at an actual physical occupation that I see here on a regular basis.

I think Occupy's main fault is that some of the issues they are bringing up now are too radical for the majority of the 99%, a large chunk of which still have very comfortable lives compared to most of the World. Radical ideas simply don't appeal to people who are essentially comfortable in their own lives. As much as they may realize there are problems in our system, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

The movement had a lot more appeal when it first started and was advocating broad issues like removing money from politics. That is something that most of the 99% can agree on. The more Occupy becomes a far left fringe group, the less support it will have from the 99%.

I don't see any meaningful distinction between what OWS is doing now and what it was doing on September 17. It didn't make any demands then and it's still not making any demands. The notion of removing money from politics is something that liberals injected into the movement shortly after it began, but it's never been anything for which there is broad consensus in the movement. About the only official pronouncement of the movement is the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City which was adopted about a week after the occupation began and which is really quite radical.

The initiators of OWS are strongly influenced by the anarchist intellectual tradition, It is precisely to them that the mass base of liberals responded to and they remain by far the movement's best and most outstanding organizers.

Rather than just asserting that you see a distinction between what OWS was all about on September 17 and what it is about now could you specifically delineate exactly what you see those differences being. While I see growing dissention within the movement, to me that seems to be drivien by a faulty organizational structure that the movement is having a great deal of difficulty coming to terms with. But it doesn't seem to me to have anything to do with any changes in the style or approach of the movement since its inception on September 17.

I'd agree that there is a lot of insulting that goes on at this forum, but I don't see this forum as being in any way representative of OWS. For that I think you have to go to an actual physical occupation which remains the heart, soul and core of the movement,

"The initiators of OWS are strongly influenced by the anarchist intellectual tradition, It is precisely to them that the mass base of liberals responded to and they remain by far the movement's best and most outstanding organizers."

I agree 100%. I just don't think that their views really have mass appeal to your average American family. Maybe their influence within the group was just not as obvious to me back in September.

Of course not and they are not stupid. They are really quite intelligent and as aware as anyone that their worldview does not meaningfully resonate with broad publics. Nothing could be further from anarchism than the culture and organizational structure of organized labor, yet it was precisely these anarchists that forged the first alliance between sections of organized labor and the radical intelligencia that has existed in this nation since the 1940s and they did that by extending their solidarity to working people with demanding or even expecting anything in return. They certainly haven't asked unions to change either their internal culture or their organizational structure in return for the solidarity they offer and the same is true of all the other movement to which they extend outreach.

Meanwhile the liberals within the movement spend most of their time complaining about how most Americans won't respond to an anarchist leadership (while ironically they themselves did). I'm not aware of a single instance of successful organizing on the part of liberal participants in the movement, though I could be missing something,

RedJazz, would you mind if I asked you where you perceive yourself in all of this? I understand the propensity to want to group people together to get an understanding of what is going on. You speak of the anarchists, the liberals, the unions, etc. But you never include yourself in them..

Part of the problem with labels is that abstract concepts are matters of contention about which there is little consensus. Everybody (including me) tends to get in trouble when they use such terms without defining their terms. For example, even among who claim to support or who are even active in OWS there has been a tendency to conflate anarchism and the black bloc, while it has been pointed out that anarchism is a body of political theory while the black bloc embodies a set of tactics which one may adhere to whether one is an anarchist, a liberal, a socialist or even a conservative.

Speaking most concretely I'm 69 years old. I've been involved in most of the major social movements of this nation for the past 50 years. For much of that time at work I have been represented by a collective bargaining agreement. I've always been involved in the labor movement, occasionally as a local officer or shop steward, but usually as a rank and file member. During that period I have been in and out of a variety of socialist sects.

It is my perception that the key activists in OWS and most its best and most outstanding organizers are strongly influenced by the anarchist intellectual tradition, though not necessarily explicitly identifiable as anarchists. I am very impressed with their skills and dedication, though I do think that especially some of their organizational approaches (especially their conception of and commitment to consensus decision making) is likely to lead to a crisis in OWS.

That said, I am fully and completely committed to the views expressed in the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City, which to my knowledge is really the only political document yet produced by OWS. There is much that I believe and understand in life and politics that is not in the Declaration of the Occupation, but there is nothing in the Declaration of the Occupation with which I do not agree.

More energy goes onto this forum than in any actual occupy movement. Look at the decreasing post volume of the site, look at the decreasing numbers that actually show up to events....pitiful really.
What are you folks going to do with your spare time when this movement is over?

If bull shit were music this forum would be a brass band. I participate in this forum, I'm a part time occupier and I've been to general assemblies and encampments in several different cities. I'm 69 years old and I've been involved in every social movement in this nation in the last 50 years. Whatever it is that is going on here (and to me it is nothing but a bunch of bull shit--I do not mean that in any prejuridive sense--I enjoy bull shit immensely) there is a world of difference between this and what is going here and what a real movement is about, and that real movement is at the local general assemblies and the ongoing encampments.

The differences are so monumental that it is hard to know where to start. But for me the most significant difference is that people are much nicer to each other at general assemblies and in the encampments. But that doesn't even really begin to describe it. People are nicer to each other at general assemblies and in the encampments than anywhere else I've ever been in my 69 years. This is not to say that people don't have disagreements or even get into physical fights. There are disagreements at general assemblies and at encampments every bit as strong as they are here, but people are much, much nicer to each other.

The movement was never really very big and internal movement sources tended to inflate its size, often by a factor of 10 or more. I don't think 30 people stayed over night at Zuccotti on September 17. The streets in lower Manhattan are so narrow that they make a rather small crowd seem considerably larger than it is.

In no way do I mean to denigrate OWS. I am totally committed to it, but part of that committment is not to lie about my own perceptions and my perception is that it is and always has been much much smaller than many of its activists would like to think it is.

That said, I think OWS is responding to multiple crises that are multiple, international and systemic rather than cyclical. That being the case, while the movement will ebb and flow, short of the institution of a genuine police state I do not think the movement will disappear until the crises disappear, which is to say until the rotten filthy system that is at the root of the crises is overthrown. That, undoubtedly will take decades and perhaps several lifetimes.

Thank you. I suppose it is easier to communicate when you have an idea who you are working with. I wanted to pass this on to you, in case you have not seen this occupy group. Really pretty fascinating..

Consider though "leftists" like JKF, a moderate. His space program produced ten dollars in economic development for every dollar put into it. Much of what we call modernity today was seeded by the space program.

Its kind of funny, but under the right conditions, liberals can get our society to make bucks.

Yeah, you figure it out when you realize that those ice cubes are warm compared to the air temperature. And of course we all know you were referring to ice cubes at the North Pole. Dissembling idiot. You simply can't stop lying. it is an illness.

I suppose it would depend on 1st whether they figured they could rape people for a lot of money. When that ran dry if it was an effective treatment they then might want to shut it down. Or see that it is unaffordable to the common man.

Partisanship has been a part of American politics since the beginning.
It is the name of the game,there is nothing wrong with it and the people who can't cope with it and don't understand it and never will. It's not about holding hands and singing Kumbayah it's about winning and defeating the other party.

You and many of the people posting here live in a dreamworld where you believe that if we all are just really nice to each other, everything will be groovy. No. We need to get mad and practice the Glitching or Monkey Wrenching of the system. Fantasies of everybody getting along are wonderful but reality is where change begins and it don't happen very easy. Study the histroy of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, etc. Things were not easy and the approach of loving the British or Racists DID NOT change a thing. Wake up. Risk. The lovey-dovey stuff is for the naive utopoian idealists who go home and night and cry about the evil in the world. Don't waste your time. Take some superglue to the Corporate ATMS and do something creative for a change.

The Powerful do NOT respect working within the system. They are laughing and mocking you. Until they see and feel the threat of destruction, they will NOT be moved. Here's an idea, organize a Boycott of one corporate Bank, a massive one. But here's the deal, in this leaderless, amorphous mess some people call a protest, there is NO agreement on anything. It is anarchic and hence without a focus and therefore almost impotent. But you can keep going around is circles for a few years until you finally get tired and drop out and join the rat race. Good luck.

.. I must be really out of touch with my inner path of destruction. I would not mind traversing this path to see what is there - but if it will require me to be mad as hell, I might be too far gone. I am not a fan of fandom or being organized. It does not matter if this movement is impotent. I want individuals to reclaim their power, not hand it over to some organization.