Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Potentially incendiary allegations are adding yet more friction to an already strained relationship with one of Australia's closest neighbours. Indonesian police say they've had to treat 10 asylum seekers for burns after one of the Australian Navy's turnback operations. The Somali men claim they were forced to hold onto hot engine pipes as their boat was returned to Rote Island. Some of the men also claim they were kicked. This afternoon the Immigration Minister Scott Morrison came out swinging, calling the airing of the pictures and the allegations outrageous.

SCOTT MORRISON, IMMIGRATION MINISTER: Let me be very clear, the Australian Government is not going to put up with people sledging the Australian Navy with unsubstantiated claims when they have high levels of motivation for spinning stories in order to undermine this government's very successful border protection program and policies.

LEIGH SALES: Well, for a view from Indonesia, I spoke to MP and Foreign Affairs Commission member Tantowi Yahya in Jakarta.

Tantowi Yahya, video has emerged today showing asylum seekers being treated for burns on their hands, they allege caused by an Australian Navy transfer to Indonesia. Australia's Immigration Minister Scott Morrison says the Australian Government will not stand for its navy being sledged with unsubstantiated claims and spurious allegations. How do you view the situation?

TANTOWI YAHYA, INDONESIAN MP: Well I think we still need to clarify these allegations. I mean, I'm not in a position to give any comment on that. We still have to wait for the very clear informations that we get from the institution, release it to the investigations on the fact. But if it is true, then the Government of Australia has clearly violated human right of the asylum seekers and at the same time, at the same time they also have violated the territory of Indonesians.

LEIGH SALES: How can it be clarified? Who would you like to see investigate?

TANTOWI YAHYA: I think it is a must for Australian Government to investigate, so the authority of Australia don't immediately make a statement to the world that there is no violations of human rights of the asylum seekers that was taking place in the - in the - on the oceans. I mean, your government still need to clarify whether this is true or not.

LEIGH SALES: Minister Morrison says that people smugglers and their clients have a very strong motivation for fabricating stories because they're seeking to discredit Australia's border protection policies. That's a fair point, isn't it?

TANTOWI YAHYA: Well, I don't want to interview on that issue. But what really concerns me right now, the asylum seekers, they are not - we have to - I mean, the country of destination should protect them. There should be a guarantee that they will not experience any physical abuse or torture or something like that. I mean, whoever come to our country, regardless their intention is - they need - they still need to be protected.

LEIGH SALES: The Australian Government is investigating how there were breaches of Indonesian sovereign territory in recent weeks by Australian Navy boats. It has said that those breaches were accidental. Do you accept that?

TANTOWI YAHYA: Well, it cannot be accepted as incidental. Like, the incursions that happened, first, I would like to clarify here the reason that set forward by your governments that incursion is incidental, it's obviously unacceptable. Why? Because the crew are very trained, plus they're equipped with very sophisticated equipment, so we cannot find - we cannot accept any reasons that they cross other countries territory unintentionally. Second, if there is - if the asylum seekers are basically abused and your government says that it is unintentionally, this is also - for me is the fact that cannot be accepted.

LEIGH SALES: The Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, says Australia will do what it is entitled to do to secure Australia's borders. Is that not a reasonable position to take and wouldn't Indonesia say exactly the same thing?

TANTOWI YAHYA: Let me say very - very clearly: it's not an issue about boat people, it's not an issue about asylum seekers. It's an issue about unilateral policy. I mean, policy made by Australian Government without respecting the interests or the necessity of other country to in this respect, it's Indonesia. As long as the Australian Government makes a policy on unilateral basis, I think this will always create tensions and problem with Indonesia.

LEIGH SALES: But Indonesia undertakes unilateral policies to protect its borders and sovereignty.

TANTOWI YAHYA: Well, as long as Australian Government is implementing unilateral policy at the same time Indonesia will do the same thing too.

LEIGH SALES: You've previously expressed your opposition to Australia's stop the boats policy, but many fewer boats are trying to make their journey to Australia, lives are being spared and people smugglers are losing business. Isn't that evidence that it is a successful policy?

TANTOWI YAHYA: I say many, many times that the asylum seekers are not Indonesians and they came to our territory without our knowledge and then their intention is going to Australia. So, as a matter of fact we don't have anything - we don't have anything to do with this except for the reasons of humanity. So when Australian Government comes with the pushback policy or boat return policy, which is very unilateral, for us this policy is hard. I mean, we have to cooperate. But the sad fact is that we don't have any bilateral cooperations on this issue anymore.

LEIGH SALES: Do I understand correctly that you're suggesting that there's nothing in it for Indonesia to cooperate with this policy because the asylum seekers are not Indonesian and they're simply using Indonesia as a transit point to get to Australia?

TANTOWI YAHYA: Well, if you set aside the humanity reasons, the asylum seekers are not Indonesian, obviously. They were - and then their destinations is also Australia. So, in fact we have nothing to do with this. But then we still have, we still have to give protections. The solutions of the illegal immigrant and asylum seekers cannot be done on unilateral basis. It has to be work out together so that the framework should be bilateral between Australia and Indonesia. That's what I'm saying.

LEIGH SALES: For that to happen, though, Australia-Indonesia relations would have to return to normal. Can you foresee a time in the short term when that will happen?

TANTOWI YAHYA: Well, let's see, because we have agreed on six stages towards the reconciliation or normalisations of the relations and I think your government has just passed on the first step, the first step, the first step. So, I still see long way to go, but let's see it on a very positive side. I mean, we are - we were good neighbour, I mean, we need each other; let's see how your country, your government is reacting to this. If the reaction is always positive, I think we are very, very close to what the normalisation of the relationship.