Nomad said: "you are waking up to what history has taught us all along ... man is still nothing more than a greedy beast and you are starting to see that we never exited the jungle"

That statement is an exaggeration, and indicates a pathological state of mind. Nomad's statement implies that all humans are greedy beasts, and all humans have jungle mentalities. Neither implication is true. What is true is that some humans are greedy beasts, and some humans have jungle mentalities. With that understanding, it is prudent to be wary of greedy humans and humans with jungle mentalities.

What follows are the results of the Google search "define: paranoia". Every definition describes a pathological state of mind. Paranoia is marked by an unhealthy wariness of all people and all situations. A healthy person has learned that such wariness is sometimes warranted, and sometimes is not warranted. Sheeple tend to not be wary at all. Conspiracy theorists tend to be paranoid. These extreme states of mind are both unrealistic. A healthy state of mind lies somewhere in between.

Google: "define: paranoia"

In popular culture, the term paranoia is usually used to describe excessive concern about one's own well-being, sometimes suggesting a person holds persecutory beliefs concerning a threat to themselves or their property and is often linked to a belief in conspiracy theories.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia

Suspicion of others that is not based on fact.
www.alz.org/Resources/Glossary.asp

an irrational fear, suspicion, or distrust of others.
www.nationaltcc.org/tcc/

(par-a-noy-a): A mental state that includes unreasonable suspicions of people and situations. A person who is paranoid may be suspicious, hostile, or may become extremely sensitive to rejection by others.
www.seroquel.com/cons_bip/seroquel/tools/glossary.asp

Symptoms of delusions and impaired contact with reality but without the severe personality disorganization characteristic of schizophrenia.
suicideandmentalhealthassociationinternational.org/schizgloss.html

A belief that the actions of others is demeaning or threatening. It is characterized by feelings of being exploited or harmed by others, and questioning loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates.
www.dphilpotlaw.com/html/glossary.html

A psychosis characterized by a system of delusions with often include the belief of persecution or grandeur without hallucinations.
depression.about.com/library/glossary/blglossaryindexp.htm

Clinically, paranoia is characterized by highly systematized, persistent, incapacitating delusions of persecution and/or grandeur; commonly used to describe hypervigilence over a (mis)perceived threat, belief that danger is everywhere, and belief that those who do not recognize the threat are evil and part of the threat themselves.
answers.org/satan/sraglossary.html

Delusions of persecution or grandeur; unreasoning beleif that on is the target of conspericies and patterns of events aimed at one's destruction or benefit. In common usage, the term is a synonym for extreme fear, especially of other people and situations.
www.chamisamesa.net/glossa.html

Slang term taken from psychology, used to refer to general terror or anxiety, usually with associated feelings of persecution.
www.spiritualitea.com/articles/paganglossary.shtml

A mental disorder, or an element of several other mental illnesses, characterized by suspicion, delusions of persecution and jealousy.
www.ohiohealth.com/healthreference/reference/DF34B32F-6F85-45E0-8FE85ECACDD48CC0.htm

is a mental condition in which an individual unjustifiably feels threatened by other people.
www.a2zpsychology.com/psychology_guide/mental_illness_terminology.htm

a disorder in which a person becomes overly suspicious and emotionally sensitive
www.american-depot.com/services/resources_gl_p.asp

A tendency toward unwarranted suspicions of people and situations. People with paranoia may think others are ridiculing them of plotting against them. Paranoia falls within the category of delusional thinking.
schizophrenia.atspace.org/glossary/

a psychological disorder characterized by delusions of persecution or grandeur
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Paranoia is a humorous role playing game set in a dystopian future similar to 1984, Brazil and Brave New World. The tone of the game is light and tongue-in-cheek rather than dark and heavy. The game is set in Alpha Complex, a large futuristic domed city controlled by The Computer. The Computer has made happiness mandatory. Failure to be happy is punishable by summary execution.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)

Nomad said: "you are waking up to what history has taught us all along ... man is still nothing more than a greedy beast and you are starting to see that we never exited the jungle"

That statement is an exaggeration, and indicates a pathological state of mind. Nomad's statement implies that all humans are greedy beasts, and all humans have jungle mentalities. Neither implication is true. What is true is that some humans are greedy beasts, and some humans have jungle mentalities. With that understanding, it is prudent to be wary of greedy humans and humans with jungle mentalities.

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Hummm last time I checked the majority of the planet's people were living in poverty .. I guess you only care about yourself ... if we were truly enlightened we would have helped
each other by now ... still think we are
out of the jungle even after seeing how
the New Orleans people were treated ? Instead
of food and water they sent in the army ??
Look at the lady wondering out loud where the help is. This only took place because the majority
of the people still think like you ! :-D

Jesus spoke of the wheat and the chaff coexisting in the same field, and that, at some future date, they would be separated and the chaff burned.

Sheeple focus on the wheat, conspiracy theorists on the chaff. An exaggerated preoccupation on the chaff is a form of paranoia.

I do not deny the existence of the jungle; however, you appear to be denying the existence of civilization and civilized people. I claim that civilization exists, and that many civilized people are working to improve living conditions for humanity as a whole.

It is worthwhile for us to oppose and minimize the effects of greedy, jungle-minded people, while at the same time working to build a better civilization for humanity as a whole.

I did not claim that you are paranoid, only that your statement is indicative of paranoia. Do you really believe what you said? Only you can answer that. The fact that you made the statement, and then defended it, is, at the very least, indicative of your having paranoid tendencies, IMO.

If you are a greedy, jungle-minded person, then I encourage you to develop more civilized qualities.

Arjuna wrote: Conspiracy theorists tend to be paranoid. These extreme states of mind are both unrealistic. A healthy state of mind lies somewhere in between.

I, personally, do not deal with theory.

Extreme? Healthy? According to whom?

Quote:

Google: "define: paranoia"

In popular culture, the term paranoia is usually used to describe excessive concern about one's own well-being, sometimes suggesting a person holds persecutory beliefs concerning a threat to themselves or their property and is often linked to a belief in conspiracy theories.

How much is "excessive"? Is it even possible to be "excessively" concerned about one's own well-being?
The above statement connects "excessive concern" with "persecutory beliefs" and again, conspiracy "theories" without addressing the possibility/probability of said "beliefs" and "theories" being true.

Quote:

Suspicion of others that is not based on fact.

What is paranoia based on fact, then?

Quote:

an irrational fear, suspicion, or distrust of others.

Human beings are both rational and irrational. That is their NATURAL STATE; how human beings are created. Therefore, behaving irrationally is as natural as behaving rationally.

Quote:

(par-a-noy-a): A mental state that includes unreasonable suspicions of people and situations. A person who is paranoid may be suspicious, hostile, or may become extremely sensitive to rejection by others.

Again, too vague. What is "unreasonable" in any said situation? Could it be that a person who is classified "paranoid" may be "suspicious, hostile, or may become extremely sensitive to rejection by others" FOR A GOOD REASON? Maybe the person is trying to tell his circle of friends something and it falling on deaf ears. That doesn't mean he's sick or ill or mentally defect in any way, or that he's lying.

Quote:

Symptoms of delusions and impaired contact with reality but without the severe personality disorganization characteristic of schizophrenia.

Who is the above definition referring to: conspiracy "theorists" or those living in dreamland utopia? I could call anyone who doesn't believe the truth of Sweden being a Communist country paranoid, based on above definition!

Quote:

A belief that the actions of others is demeaning or threatening. It is characterized by feelings of being exploited or harmed by others, and questioning loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates.

See above. Actions of others might very well be demeaning or threatening. Could one have "feelings of being exploited or harmed by others" because in fact one IS/ARE/HAS BEEN exploited and/or harmed by others?

All the rest of these definition are equally questionable, so I won't comment on all.

Is "normal" defined by majority? I think not! Just because most people are in a state of mind, doesn't mean that that's the NORMAL STATE TO BE IN. In fact, it's quite possible that a person classified as paranoid is actually NORMAL in the word's original sense; unaffected by social conditioning, mind control, political correctness, etc.

In general, I don't accept Western mainstream medicine-, or Freudian psychotherapy-based definitions of what's "normal/abnormal" or what's healthy/pathological. Modern medicine and psychotherapy is based on the same dialectical materialism Darwinism and Marxism-Leninism is based on - that there is no God and Man is not Man, but Animal.

Draken:
You make some very good points. Your input on these definitions clarifies the issues.

The big issue I see here is that every definition of paranoia I have found describes it as a pathological condition. I have decided to view paranoia as pathological and try to determine why some students of conspiracies might be paranoid.

You apparently view paranoia as a non-pathological condition. I suspect that a clear statement of your definition would differ from all of those I found.

Quote:

Arjuna: Sheeple tend to not be wary at all. Conspiracy theorists tend to be paranoid. These extreme states of mind are both unrealistic. A healthy state of mind lies somewhere in between.

Draken: I, personally, do not deal with theory. Extreme? Healthy? According to whom?

If you never theorize, then you are indeed rare among students of conspiracies. I, as I believe most students do, often form tentative conclusions and speculative opinions regarding evidence of what appears to be conspiratorial behavior. Regardless, the theoretical nature, or lack thereof, of our conpiracy studies is irrelevant to the discussion of paranoia.

Quote:

Arjuna: Jesus spoke of the wheat and the chaff coexisting in the same field, and that, at some future date, they would be separated and the chaff burned.

Jesus also said, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God..." When I said that conpiracy theorists tend to be paranoid, I mean that many of them tend to focus on the chaff, to the exclusion of the wheat. Someone who does that would clearly be missing out on the Kingdom of God, which no doubt is part of the wheat. I view such a condition as pathological, and I think Jesus would agree. On the other hand, someone who focuses exclusively on the wheat is unable to deal effectively with the hazzards posed by the greedy, jungle-minded chaff. This is why I believe that a healthy state of mind lies somewhere between these two extremes.

Quote:

Draken: Is it even possible to be "excessively" concerned about one's own well-being?

I believe the answer is yes. If someone is so concerned with real and perceived threats to his well-being that it impairs his ability to act in ways that serve his and others best interests, then those concerns are pathological.

Quote:

somebody's definition: an irrational fear, suspicion, or distrust of others.

I agree that it is natural for humans to be irrational. An irrational person has a pathological condition when the irrationality impairs his ability to act in ways that serve his and others best interests. A better definition of paranoia than the one quoted would include this condition.

Quote:

Draken: All the rest of these definition are equally questionable, so I won't comment on all.

I agree. These definitions are all questionable. But since the word paranoia gets tossed around a lot, I think it is worthwhile to discuss what it means.

Quote:

Draken: Call me paranoid if you want.

Based upon my current definition of the term, I hope that you are not paranoid. Likewise, I hope that I am not paranoid either.

I might theorize but never without backing it up with facts, that's what I meant. A theory without foundation in fact is not worth considering. I would never claim anything unless I could back it up with fact, not theory; that might make my position a bit clearer.

Quote:

If someone is so concerned with real and perceived threats to his well-being that it impairs his ability to act in ways that serve his and others best interests, then those concerns are pathological.

It might be in my best interest to be as healthy as possible. Who is to say what is in my "best interest" but me? Actually, other peoples' best interests are, and should be, totally irrelevant for me, because other people's best interests and my best interests are not identical interests.

The problem as I see it, is that the Establishment, via massmedia, are consistently abusing and misusing the word paranoia to dismiss any legitimate criticism from dissenters as being PATHOLOGICAL, i.e. sick and abnormal behaviour.

But when that same Establishment is defining WHAT should be considered pathological or sick, abnormal behaviour is when I start having problems with even using the word 'paranoia'.

In pre-Bolshevik Russia - and I suppose still, in remote parts of Asia - society regarded village idiots and "crazy" people as HOLY. They had the status of the court jester in Medieval times, who was the only one allowed by the King TO TELL THE TRUTH. These 'starets' ("old man") as they are called in Russia were considered being closer to God than "normal" people.
I bring this up as an example of many, that not all societies and traditions view "paranoia" or mental "disorder" as pathological, which Modern Western civilization does - but only after having become subverted by dialectical materialism and Communist propaganda via the false teachings of Freud.

From the introduction, which is an address by the Bolshevik massmurderer Berija:

"American students at the Lenin University, I welcome your attendance at these classes on Psychopolitics.

Psychopolitics is an important if less known division of Geo-politics. It is less known because it must necessarily deal with highly educated personnel, the very top strata of "mental healing."

By psychopolitics our chief goals are effectively carried forward. To produce a maximum of chaos in the culture of the enemy is our first most important step. Our fruits are grown in chaos, distrust, economic depression and scientific turmoil. At least a weary populace can seek peace only in our offered Communist State, at last only Communism can resolve the problems of the masses.

A psychopolitician must work hard to produce the maximum chaos in the fields of "mental healing." He must recruit and use all the agencies and facilities of "mental healing." He must labor to increase the personnel and facilities of "mental healing" until at last the entire field of mental science is entirely dominated by Communist principles and desires.

To achieve these goals the psychopolitician must crush every "home-grown" variety of mental healing in America. Actual teachings of James, Eddy and Pentecostal Bible faith healers amongst your mis-guided people must be swept aside. They must be discredited, defamed, arrested, stamped upon even by their own government until there is no credit in them and only Communist-oriented "healing" remains. You must work until every teacher of psychology unknowingly or knowingly teaches only Communist doctrine under the guise of "psychology.". You must labor until every doctor and psychiatrist is either a psycho-politician or an unwitting assistant to our aims.

You must labor until we have dominion over the minds and bodies of every important person in your nation. You must achieve such disrepute for the state of insanity and such authority over its pronouncement that not one statement so labeled could again be given credence by his people. you must work until suicide arising from mental imbalance is common and calls forth no general investigation or remark.

With the institutions for the insane you have in your country prisons which can hold a million persons and can hold them without civil rights or any hope of freedom. And upon these people can be practiced shock and surgery so that never again will they draw a sane breath. You must make these treatments common and accepted. And you must sweep aside any treatment or any group of persons seeking to treat by effective means.

You must dominate as respected men the fields of psychiatry and psychology. You must dominate the hospitals and universities. You must carry forward the myth that only a European doctor is competent in the field of insanity and thus excuse amongst you the high incidence of foreign birth and training. If and when we seize Vienna, you shall have then a common ground of meeting and can come and take your instructions as worshippers of Freud along with other psychiatrists.

Psychopolitics is a solemn charge. With it you can erase our enemies as insects. You can cripple the efficiency of leaders by striking insanity into their families through the use of drugs. You can wipe them away with testimony as to their insanity. By our technologies, you can even bring about insanity itself when they seem to resistive.

You can change their loyalties by psychopolitics. Given a short time with a psychopolitician you can alter forever their loyalty of a soldier in our hands or a statesman or a leader in his own country, or you can destroy his mind.

However, you labor under certain dangers. It may happen that remedies for our "treatments" may be discovered. It may occur that a public hue and cry may arise against "mental healing." It may thus occur that all mental healing might be placed in the hands of ministers and taken out of the hands of our psychologists and psychiatrists. But the Capitalistic thirst for control, Capitalistic in-humanity and general public terror of insanity can be brought to guard against these things. But should they occur, should independent researchers actually discover means to undo psychopolitical procedures, you must not rest, you must not eat or sleep, you must not stint one tiniest bit of available money to campaign against it, dis-credit it , strike it down and render it void. For by an effective means all our actions and researches could be undone.

In a Capitalistic state you are aided on all sides by the corruption of the philosophy of man and the times. You will discover that everything will aid you in your campaign to seize, control and use all "mental healing" to spread our doctrine and rid us of our enemies within their own borders.

Use the courts, use the judges, use the Constitution of the country, use its medical societies and its laws to further our ends. Do not stint in your labor in this direction. And when you have succeeded you will discover that you can now effect your own legislation at will and you can, by careful organization of healing societies, by constant campaign about the terrors of society, by pretense as to your effectiveness make you Capitalist himself, by his own appropriations, finance a large portion of the quiet Communist conquest of the nation.

Arjuna: If someone is so concerned with real and perceived threats to his well-being that it impairs his ability to act in ways that serve his and others best interests, then those concerns are pathological.

Draken: It might be in my best interest to be as healthy as possible. Who is to say what is in my "best interest" but me? Actually, other peoples' best interests are, and should be, totally irrelevant for me, because other people's best interests and my best interests are not identical interests.

Let's suppose that Robert takes up the study of conspiracies and becomes so worried about the NWO's activities in the world that he loses his appetite, stops going to work, stops paying his bills, starts to spend more and more time sleeping, and withdraws from his family and friends. A month later he dies from starvation. Did he have a pathological condition? Was it in his best interest to die? Most people would agree that the answer to the first question is yes, and no to the second question. However, if Robert has decided that he does not want to live in a world where the NWO perpetrates so many evil deeds, then it is in his best interest to withdraw from the world and end his life.

Let's suppose that, before starving himself, Robert kills his wife and six children with a handgun, because he cannot bear the thought of them living in such an evil world. Is killing his family pathological? Was he acting in their best interests? Perhaps it was a brilliant decision on his part to end the lives of his family and himself. Who are we to impose our beliefs on him?

Or perhaps Robert creates a virus in his laboratory, releases it through the local water supply, and kills every single human being on earth. Is that pathological? Let's face it, the NWO is totally evil, and they are enslaving everybody worldwide. Perhaps ending the madness by killing everybody was a brilliant decision. Who are we to question his sanity?

I agree that the NWO would love to diagnose all of us at this forum as paranoids, and enforce the cure of a lobotomy on each of us.

But what if a truly sane and holy person, perhaps Jesus, were given the task of defining the words "paranoia" and "pathological". What would those definitions be?

By extension, if we really wanted to create the Kingdom of God on earth, how would we go about achieving that goal? Satan certainly has a plan. What is ours?

Draken, you have offered us The Soviet Art of Brainwashing, a diabolical plot by the enemy. Well, if you don't like that system of mental health, then please tell me a little bit about the system of mental health that you prefer.

Are you speaking from personal experience, or do you know someone - anyone - whose reaction to waking up from naivité and growing up to become a responsible man, instead of remaining a child mentally, was to kill everybody in sight, including himself?

I don't know ANYONE who's reacted the way you describe.

On the other hand, your description is EXACTLY how the NWO spokespeople would express themselves to describe the "reason" why Martin Bryant killed so many people at Port Arthur, or why Robert Steinhauser in Erfurt, Germany went on a mass killing rampage.

In fact, that's exactly how they're describing chess genious Bobby Fischer: "a lunatic, paranoid, who thinks the CIA is out to get him". Well, they WERE! He sat in solitary confinement for 8 MONTHS in Japan, before the Islandic government offered him a citizenship to get him out.

Why did the Americans do this? Because Fischer is popular, has access to mass media by being a world-famous chess master, and last but certainly not least, he is a dissenter with facts in his hands and he's not afraid to voice his opinion on American foreign and domestic policy.

Actually, Jesus said "my Kingdom is NOT of this world", which leads me to suspect that Satan has put it in the heads of the mentally asleep to achieve it here, on earth..."The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Don't remember who said that, but it's very relevant.

My version of mental health is very easy: like I said before, if one is able to scale away all the social conditioning, mind control, memes, 'slide reactions', false doctrines, propaganda, etc., we would get genuine mental health.

Reading the Sacred Wisdom of the Traditional World would lead Modern Western civilization out of this pit.

For every false doctrine we expose and discard we get more mentally healthy. By thinking logically and trying to see with the Eye of the Heart. We can cure our "mental disorder" imposed on us by the Modern World, but not by any modern means!

Turning away from the Modern World and it's false concepts and manifestations, and turning either towards the World of Tradition, or looking ahead towards a new Golden Age.

__________________Three things are sacred to me: first Truth, and then, in its tracks, primordial prayer; Then virtue–nobility of soul which, in God walks on the path of beauty. Frithjof Schuon