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I agree. However, I think Brady has a strong GOAT argument without relying solely on rings.

His Rings is why everyone in the media and most fans label him the GOAT. Nobody had him labeled that until he tied Montana with 4. Montana held the GOAT title forever. Many thought Peyton was better all-time until Brady won his 4th but at that point Brady had 4 to Peyton's 1. If he had 0 rings to this point, Brady would be looked at like Jim Kelly is, a top 20 QB ever (hall of famer) but not near the GOAT.

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Rings are weighed heavily by the media. If Brady had 2 rings like Peyton had, not 1 person would rank Brady higher than Peyton because Peyton was the better individual player and won 5 MVP's to prove it.

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His Rings is why everyone in the media and most fans label him the GOAT. Nobody had him labeled that until he tied Montana with 4. Montana held the GOAT title forever. Many thought Peyton was better all-time until Brady won his 4th but at that point Brady had 4 to Peyton's 1. If he had 0 rings to this point, Brady would be looked at like Jim Kelly is, a top 20 QB ever (hall of famer) but not near the GOAT.

You're arguing against a premise that I don't agree with.

I think championships are a part of the argument, but when you look at Brady's body of work, he has a legit claim to the throne. It's not just rings.

Ten years ago when Pats fans and media heads said "Brady is better than Manning," that was just about rings. And that was nonsense. Manning was the better passer, was more in control of his offense, better statistically, more dominant individually, but on a team that wasn't as balanced or well coached, and his team hadn't performed well in the playoffs.

Since then, Brady has won two league MVPs, he's now top four in career yards (and will be #2 next year), top three in TDs (will be #2 next year), top four in passer rating, top three in INT %, #6 in TD% among modern QBs... He has career longevity that guys like Young and Aikman can't touch, he's aging gracefully unlike Manning and Elway, he doesn't turn the ball over like Favre. He has dominant, signature performances, regular season and playoffs, record-breaking streaks, etc.

Nothing about this is conclusive. But his body of work stands on its own against everyone else in the GOAT conversation, without even bringing up the rings. The argument has changed from ten years ago. Brady now has just as impressive a regular season resume as anyone else.

I'll argue against the "rings" argument all day long. It's bogus. But Brady's body of work doesn't rely on the rings anymore.

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I think championships are a part of the argument, but when you look at Brady's body of work, he has a legit claim to the throne. It's not just rings.

Ten years ago when Pats fans and media heads said "Brady is better than Manning," that was just about rings. And that was nonsense. Manning was the better passer, was more in control of his offense, better statistically, more dominant individually, but on a team that wasn't as balanced or well coached, and his team hadn't performed well in the playoffs.

Since then, Brady has won two league MVPs, he's now top four in career yards (and will be #2 next year), top three in TDs (will be #2 next year), top four in passer rating, top three in INT %, #6 in TD% among modern QBs... He has career longevity that guys like Young and Aikman can't touch, he's aging gracefully unlike Manning and Elway, he doesn't turn the ball over like Favre. He has dominant, signature performances, regular season and playoffs, record-breaking streaks, etc.

Nothing about this is conclusive. But his body of work stands on its own against everyone else in the GOAT conversation, without even bringing up the rings. The argument has changed from ten years ago. Brady now has just as impressive a regular season resume as anyone else.

I'll argue against the "rings" argument all day long. It's bogus. But Brady's body of work doesn't rely on the rings anymore.

You think like that (so it's not you) but the media heads and Pats fans only bring up rings. Take rings out of the equation and there is no way he is better than Peyton though. Peyton has won 5 MVP's to Brady's 3 and went to 4 SB's with 4 different coaches. He was the QB and coach on every team he played on. Take rings out of the equation, Peyton is the GOAT by a mile because he was clearly the greatest Regular Season QB of all-time as well with the most wins in 1 decade 00's-09.

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I think championships are a part of the argument, but when you look at Brady's body of work, he has a legit claim to the throne. It's not just rings.

Ten years ago when Pats fans and media heads said "Brady is better than Manning," that was just about rings. And that was nonsense. Manning was the better passer, was more in control of his offense, better statistically, more dominant individually, but on a team that wasn't as balanced or well coached, and his team hadn't performed well in the playoffs.

Since then, Brady has won two league MVPs, he's now top four in career yards (and will be #2 next year), top three in TDs (will be #2 next year), top four in passer rating, top three in INT %, #6 in TD% among modern QBs... He has career longevity that guys like Young and Aikman can't touch, he's aging gracefully unlike Manning and Elway, he doesn't turn the ball over like Favre. He has dominant, signature performances, regular season and playoffs, record-breaking streaks, etc.

Nothing about this is conclusive. But his body of work stands on its own against everyone else in the GOAT conversation, without even bringing up the rings. The argument has changed from ten years ago. Brady now has just as impressive a regular season resume as anyone else.

I'll argue against the "rings" argument all day long. It's bogus. But Brady's body of work doesn't rely on the rings anymore.

It's arguable that he is the greatest, but not undoubtedly so, and that's the issue, the media, and the average football fan have been citing him as the greatest ever since he won his 4th ring.

Bill Belichick has the largest role responsible for the Pat's success.

Would you take him over any QB of this era, assuming they're all in their prime?

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You think like that (so it's not you) but the media heads and Pats fans only bring up rings. Take rings out of the equation and there is no way he is better than Peyton though. Peyton has won 5 MVP's to Brady's 3 and went to 4 SB's with 4 different coaches. He was the QB and coach on every team he played on. Take rings out of the equation, Peyton is the GOAT by a mile because he was clearly the greatest Regular Season QB of all-time as well with the most wins in 1 decade 00's-09.

He's passed PM on a lot of all time lists, and will pass him on several others this year. And part of that is longevity, but he deserves credit for that longevity.

And I think you can make an argument for Manning as well. And Brees. And Rodgers (who might be the best total package, and whose team basically can't win without him, unlike Brady).

But I don't understand why you're arguing with me about rings, when I'm presenting Brady's case without rings. I'm not saying it's conclusive, I'm just saying that we can legitimately talk about Brady being a strong GOAT candidate, and that's not reliant on rings.

We can set the rings argument aside, and talk about all of Brady's other accomplishments.

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He's passed PM on a lot of all time lists, and will pass him on several others this year. And part of that is longevity, but he deserves credit for that longevity.

And I think you can make an argument for Manning as well. And Brees. And Rodgers (who might be the best total package, and whose team basically can't win without him, unlike Brady).

But I don't understand why you're arguing with me about rings, when I'm presenting Brady's case without rings. I'm not saying it's conclusive, I'm just saying that we can legitimately talk about Brady being a strong GOAT candidate, and that's not reliant on rings.

We can set the rings argument aside, and talk about all of Brady's other accomplishments.

Fair enough but 5 MVP's to 3 would be my strong debate then against your debate without ring talk. Also Peyton has been great with 4 different coaches, Brady has played for IMO the GOAT in BB his whole career.

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It's arguable that he is the greatest, but not undoubtedly so, and that's the issue, the media, and the average football fan have been citing him as the greatest ever since he won his 4th ring.

Bill Belichick has the largest role responsible for the Pat's success.

Would you take him over ﻿any QB of this era, assuming they're all in their prime?

This era? Going back to the early '90s, I'd take Brady over Aikman, Young, Favre, Brees, without any hesitation.

I think Manning was a better passer in his prime, and I think Rodgers is the most talented QB of my lifetime. But Brady now has just as much statistical prowess as Manning, and a longer and more impressive resume than Rodgers. Taking either of them over Brady is a matter of personal preference, IMO.

Edit: Forgot Marino. He and Rodgers are same level, IMO.

4 minutes ago, Tsarquise said:

He has certainly had the greatest career of any QB ever﻿, but I simply think other QBs would have even more success if they were on the Patriots with Bill Belichick.

That's certainly a legitimate discussion. But it's also a big "what if."

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This era? Going back to the early '90s, I'd take Brady over Aikman, Young, Favre, Brees, without any hesitation.

I think Manning was a better passer in his prime, and I think Rodgers is the most talented QB of my lifetime. But Brady now has just as much statistical prowess as Manning, and a longer and more impressive resume than Rodgers. Taking either of them over Brady is a matter of personal preference, IMO.

That's certainly a legitimate discussion. But it's also a big "what if."

I would argue that even his statistical prowess has a lot to do with his great coach. Their gameplans are just top notch, and he benefits greatly from his YAC receivers, don't think I have seen a other team get some much many YAC.

Once again, (and this isn't aimed at you) Brady is one of the all time greats; there is no doubt about that, but the idea -- which seems to have been created by the media-- that he has a firm grasp on the GOAT throne due to his rings is ridiculous, and it is what irks a lot of people in this thread. It personally annoys me because it seems to marginalize the great coaching and team effort that was made to have such success.

I hope when Brady retires Belichick stays so we can see what he does with a other QB, or I hope he gets cut, and we get to see Brady play with another team.

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Unless you have watched Unitas and Graham play, you are not qualified to give an opinion on the GOAT. This debate is cooked up by media members. Best QB of last 20 years, yes. Best ever is disrespectful to history of the game. Also ignorant

I've often thought this... who am I born in 1990 to judge who the best ever is? Heck i barely saw John Elway play. The debate USED to be who the best in the game was.. Brady or Manning?

Now we've gone too far.. ever? Lets see Brady play the 85 Bears in 1985.. Lets take Johnny U to 2019, or Frank Gifford.

Lets just keep it to todays game. Who's the best now!

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I would argue that even his statistical prowess has a lot to do with his great coach. Their gameplans are just top notch, and he benefits greatly from his YAC receivers, don't think I have seen a other team get some much many YAC.

Once again, (and this isn't aimed at you) Brady is one of the all time greats; there is no doubt about that, but the idea -- which seems to have been created by the media-- that he has a firm grasp on the GOAT throne due to his rings is ridiculous, and it is what irks a lot of people in this thread. It personally annoys me because it seems to marginalize the great coaching and team effort that was made to have such success.

﻿

I hope when Brady retires Belichick stays so we can see what he does with a other QB, or I hope he gets cut, and we get to see Brady play with another team.

I agree with a lot of this, especially the bolded.

I'm just saying, let's set that aside. At this point, it's a strawman. I've always pushed back against the idea that the rings make the man, and I always will. But we can discuss QB greatness without defaulting to a discussion entirely about rings, and Brady definitely belongs in that conversation.

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Rings have to be factored in though at least IMO because it is why players play the game. Brady also has great numbers like Peyton had. Another question would be, how do people weigh Brady's possible cheating regarding his greatness? Spy Gate, Deflategate?

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Rings have to be factored in though at least IMO because it is why players play the game. Brady also has great numbers like Peyton had. Another question would be, how do people weigh Brady's possible cheating regarding his greatness? Spy Gate, Deflategate?

Cheating is big for me. You never know, they could have cheated every year that they won the super bowl and I could actually believe that just because of them getting caught. Take away their cheating and maybe they don't win half of their super bowl at least?

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Cheating is big for me. You never know, they could have cheated every year that they won the super bowl and I could actually believe that just because of them getting caught. Take away their cheating and maybe they don't win half of their super bowl at least?

I think the cheating talk is absolute nonsense. Whether their past cheating gave them a significant advantage or not, the Patriots have proven that they can still win with out pushing the envelope in the ways that they had in the past.

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I think the cheating talk is absolute nonsense. Whether their past cheating gave them a significant advantage or not, the Patriots have proven that they can still win with out pushing the envelope in the ways that they had in the past.

That's the problem with cheating. Once you're caught, people will always be skeptical of your success.

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Compared to the game in the 50s today's game is unrecognizable but the goal remains the same, to win. Mention Dan Marino and you will always hear "but he did not win a Super Bowl." It is just the way things are, Worse case is baseball. Take Barry Bonds when he started versus his later years. He was so jacked up on steroids his head won an award for the largest pumpkin at a state fair. Yet he and other "shooters" are still HoF potentials.

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I do the same in basketball. I barely watched Kareem play, but I'm aware of how dominant he was. But I don't really discuss players before him. When I talk about GOAT status, it's always common era.

In football, though, I can't see arguing that anyone prior to Montana belongs in the conversation. The focus of the game has changed so dramatically, player efficiency has changed, etc.

It's hilarious watching Nick Wright confidently explain why Lebron is the Goat. Nick is much too young to have seen Wilt, Oscar, or Kareem play. I can listen to Lebron vs MJ debate, but GOAT is nonsense. Also, shame on Lebron for saying he is the GOAT

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This is no different than comparing Babe Ruth with Hank Aaron, or whatever other players are in the greatest of all time debate. Different eras, different circumstances, different equipment, different rules.

It really doesn't matter in the long run. Let's appreciate the accomplishments of each.

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I enjoy discussion and debate about who the GOAT is. Personally, I fell like Tom Brady is the GOAT. I keep seeing over and over the argument that Brady isn't the GOAT because he has had Bill Belichick as head coach. How many Super Bowls has Belichick won without Tom Brady? Maybe the reason he is able to be so far ahead of everyone defensively is because he knows he doesn't have to worry about the offense because he has Tom Brady. It's not like people were calling Belichick the next Lombardi before he had Tom Brady fall into his lap. Now I'm not saying that Belichick couldn't have won without Tom Brady, but the thing is we'll never know.

Maybe I take too simplistic of an approach but when I think of who is the GOAT, I ask myself who do I HONESTLY want to have the ball with the game on the line. For my money, I want Tom Brady. Even though last night wasn't a statistically great game, when the game was on the line Brady led the drive to seal the victory. When it is clutch time it seems like he almost always comes up clutch. Joe Montana was the same way.

I know there will be people who disagree and that's great. It makes sports fun. I enjoy reading the arguments and occasionally interjecting my own.

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I enjoy discussion and debate about who the GOAT is. Personally, I fell like Tom Brady is the GOAT. I keep seeing over and over the argument that Brady isn't the GOAT because he has had Bill Belichick as head coach. How many Super Bowls has Belichick won without Tom Brady? Maybe the reason he is able to be so far ahead of everyone defensively is because he knows he doesn't have to worry about the offense because he has Tom Brady. It's not like people were calling Belichick the next Lombardi before he had Tom Brady fall into his lap. Now I'm not saying that Belichick couldn't have won without Tom Brady, but the thing is we'll never know.

Maybe I take too simplistic of an approach but when I think of who is the GOAT, I ask myself who do I HONESTLY want to have the ball with the game on the line. For my money, I want Tom Brady. Even though last night wasn't a statistically great game, when the game was on the line Brady led the drive to seal the victory. When it is clutch time it seems like he almost always comes up clutch. Joe Montana was the same way.

I know there will be people who disagree and that's great. It makes sports fun. I enjoy reading the arguments and occasionally interjecting my own.

To me it is all in fun too. If people want to put Tom #1 it would be tough to argue actually. Montana and Peyton do have some arguments to why they could be the GOAT though IMO.

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To me it is all in fun too. If people want to put Tom #1 it would be tough to argue actually. Montana and Peyton do have some arguments to why they could be the GOAT though IMO.

That's the whole reason I come here to the forum is to have some fun and escape the everyday life for a little while. I enjoy sports debates like this. There is no way to know for sure who the GOAT is and you are right guys like Montana and Manning have legitimate claims to the throne.

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The 3 SB rings for a decade is done with for the 2010s. Now, let the Colts focus on beating the elite teams in the NFL and that is all I care about.

Brady and BB can be talked ad nauseum about and frankly, I am not in the mood to participate. When I saw Michael Jordan and the Bulls win those 6 championships and rooted for them, I now know what it feels like to be on the other side. Same with those who don't root for the Golden State Warriors, who will eventually get to those 6 championships level too.

All good and bad streaks, depending on which side you are, will come to an end eventually, and subjective debates comparing their teams to different era teams will continue as always.

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Both Brady and Peyton have great regular season accolades. What I think separates them is the postseason. Brady just wins games in January/February. He’s 30-12 in the postseason. He also has a GW drive in every SB win. That’s just otherworldly

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Both Brady and Peyton have great regular season accolades. What I think separates them is the postseason. Brady just wins games in January/February. He’s 30-12 in the postseason. He also has a GW drive in every SB win. That’s just otherworldly

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Yes he does. 30-12 as a starting QB in the postseason. No one is taking away from the team accomplishment. Yesterday was the most dominant defensive performance we’ve ever seen in a SB. The game ball most certainly goes to the defense. But just like so many other postseason games, Brady orchestrated a GW drive. When the chips are on the table, there is no QB I’m taking over him

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I fully get your point now , you completely think winning rings is a full team accomplishment and the QB gets too much credit for winning.

In most cases, yes. I think that's especially true in Brady's case; the Pats have won a ton of playoff games in which Brady's performance was decidedly average, or worse. There's a huge discrepancy between Brady's team winning playoff games when the QB is average, and every other team in the history of the NFL, especially in the last 17 years. Those stats I posted earlier highlight that.

And that's because the Pats have done a great job of building a balanced team, having discipline on and off the field, and being well coached and consistent. They don't need their QB to make big plays to win in the playoffs.

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Rings have to be factored in though at least IMO because it is why players play the game. Brady also has great numbers like Peyton had. Another question would be, how do people weigh Brady's possible cheating regarding his greatness? Spy Gate, Deflategate?

If you factor in rings, you have to take the team and coaches into consideration. The Patriots defensive rankings by points scored in NE's Superbowl years are all top ten and a couple top three. QB's often have very little to do with who wins or loses in the Superbowl. Look at Brady's stats in both games vs the Rams and then look at his stats when they lost to the Eagles.

As for the cheating and I may be crazy - but there is still a chance in the next 15 years that those first three rings will be taken away due to Spygate. Someone will talk at some point. That would change this conversation.

The QB usually gets mentioned first by most people. I have noticed the media mentions Chris Ballard a lot though. I still say Ballard is the face of the franchise now. He is the one that does most of the speaking and is building the team. Without Luck here, Ballard is brought up quite a bit.

24-20 Colts win. If we play anything like we did last week we will win. We beat ourselves last week. Rivers and the Chargers are a better team compared to the Titans. We typically own the Titans as well. No silly turnovers or silly penalties we should be in good shape.