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Saionji and the green monster

Saionji's one of the greatest mystery characters of Utena - a "main" character who gets almost less screentime than Ruka. I've always wondered if I was the only Saionji fan out there, and coming to this forum makes me realize I'm not...but there's still less of him in the series than I'd like.

Saionji in the series seems to waver between Deep Dark Revelation and Despair, or comic relief (*chu!*). His ancient friendship with Touga is what makes him interesting to a lot of people, I think, but there's more to him than meets the eye. In the thread on Anthy and the power of Dios, someone mentioned that Saionji is a lot more perceptive than people make him out to be. What's interesting to me is that for all his powers of perception and actual intelligence (I do believe that Saionji is one smart cookie), he simply stands there in the shadow and chafes. Part of this is Touga's strong hold on his emotions and actions, and part of it is...I think that Saionji is one of those people who likes to look and laugh from the sidelines, snarking "you shoulda done this!" until suddenly "someone else's problem" becomes his own.

Anyway....discuss! Who likes Saionji? Who hates him? Does he really love Anthy? Does he really believe he can beat Touga? Does he like his eggs scrambled or sunny-side up......??? Do green roses really exist?

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Saionji

Saionji is actually a close second for my favorite character, and the only reason I don't have an equally unholy shrine for him is that someone beat me to it.

He's such an intensely observant character and he drowns it in his own warped worldview. In the thread before, someone mentioned how he goes from describing the castle as a trick of the light to reaching for it a few episodes later. I think it's because Saionji is his own blind spot. His vision is insanely keen until he gets to where it involves him. Were he and Touga reversed in the beginning, he'd have been in the kendo hall making wisecrack bitchy comments about how Touga needs to open his eyes and see Anthy for what she is. We only see how much Saionji knows when he becomes the withdrawn observer. How true that is of us all, if especially for him.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Saionji is indeed a really complex, introspective character. That makes him great. It's often that the introspective types come off as jerks. At first, I hated him, because I of course made a quick judgement (He's hitting a lady! JERK!). I had no idea that 1) Anthy is no lady 2) she probably deserved being hit, knowing the workings of her character and 3) saionji has reasons for being the way he is. I remember an essay done on EM, about how on earth sweet little Wakaba could ever love a guy like him. This essay was very interesting to me, let alone very moving. Through the course of reading it, I realized I was in fact a Saionji kind of girl, who had those glimpses of a nice guy in a bad or "messed up" guy, and hung onto the beilef that I could change him--bring out the real him, with my own compassion. At the end of the essay, I thought myself a fool. But I did learn a new respect for grown up Saionji, and sense then, I have been more sympathetic towards him. I've always liked little kid Saionji; he seemed so innocent, almost broken, and adorable.

Re: Saionji and the green monster

belladonna wrote:

I've always found the flashback there very telling. Everyone, whether they like Saionji or not, says he's adorable and innocent in the flashback. We never say that about Touga, though. He wasn't innocent; only one of the boys in the flashback still comes across as a child. Why? Does Saionji mature slower? I think so, but also I think it suggests a fundamental difference in where the two boys come from, as well as the different in temperament. Saionji is far, far more sensitive than Touga, and that sensitivity makes him hold onto his childlike innocence longer, where in contrast Touga's aggressively curious. His self-esteem demands he go out and discover and conquer, where Saionji just wanted to be safe a little while longer. Like I said, temperament, but I think in both cases it also suggests their family lives. Touga, I suspect, didn't have one to speak of. The closeness of his early relationship with Nanami and his self-reliance (which shows itself as his ego) suggest his 'parents' didn't pay much attention to him. They left him alone. Whereas Saionji comes across as someone who has been sheltered. This isn't to say his family life was ideal, because I doubt it was, but his self-esteem rides on status and his sensitivity and perceptiveness where it concerns others' opinions of him summons up a very clear image of a father looking at Saionji's grades before allowing him to practice kendo with his redheaded friend. Touga's sense of achievement and self-worth are based on a more personal value he places on things, and he can gain as much as he can lose. He's in it for himself. Saionji's sense of achievement is flimsy; his cockwaving when he wins is threaded through with an obvious inferiority complex. And yet Saionji does not see things as goals to reach but rather as things to lose. Again, I imagine an authority figure, probably a father, that took Saionji's efforts for granted unless they resulted in failure. Touga's reward system is slightly more equal because he himself wrote it, but Saionji feels no real sense of accomplishment when he wins, only crushing defeat when he fails to live up to what's expected of him.

I can't say whether that's still the case during the series, but I think all signs point it being the life he lived at the time of the flashback. By the series he's obviously internalized these things to the point where he is his own overbearing, critical authority figure. I've always found it strange they leave it so up in the air where he goes when he's kicked out. Wouldn't they have said he'd gone home if he had? Maybe he didn't. If so, I think he didn't because he knew under such circumstances he wouldn't be welcomed there.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Yasha wrote:

Giovanna wrote:

I think you just made me aww all over the place, as well as get bitchy because I can't contribute anything more.

I've only brushed the tip of the iceberg. There's sex and guilt and his need for acceptance and affection and his mentor complex and how exactly one knows he's as perceptive as he is.

Saionji needs hugs.

Also, belladonna, I wrote that. About a decade ago. I'm flattered you liked it, and glad it made you reconsider Sir Smacksalot. He's, IMO, the least understood and most underappreciated character in the series. The most press he gets is being Touga's bottom, and really ANY character you put Touga next to would have ended up the same. (Except Akio, who was too busy topping him to attract the yaoi fangirls. ) I think there's a lot in Saionji that many of us can relate to, if only a little. Unfortunately the wall of aggression and anger he built around himself to make people hate him, and so justify his own dismal self-esteem, is so effective that it works on us, too.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Giovanna wrote:

Saionji is actually a close second for my favorite character, and the only reason I don't have an equally unholy shrine for him is that someone beat me to it.

oh i mean

I don't think my site is by all means comprehensive...as with all the characters of Utena, every time you watch it, you discover a bit more, and that's what I've found true for Saionji as well.

I wondered about Saionji not going home as well...I think part of the reason might be what Giovanna mentioned - that he could never show his face to his family after being kicked out of school. Another part of it though might be that he believes he doesn't need to go home, that he can somehow worm himself back into the good graces of Mr. Sekai no Hate and get readmitted. He tells Wakaba as much in his obsessive little monologues while sitting in her room hiding from her friends. His suspension, in his mind, is only a temporary fall from grace. Saionji believes what he wants to believe, most of the time. I think he's one of those people who is very insecure emotionally, but at the same time very secure that "whatever happens, it won't happen to me!" That's why his loss to Utena was such a shock - he would have laughed his head off if Touga lost, and did the "I told you so" when the other seitokai members lost, but him losing...no way!

I have the feeling that Saionji has never done anything against the rules intentionally, gotten arrested for drunk driving or underage drinking, or any of that other stuff that high school kids usually get in trouble with the law for. Touga might do some of that to test the limits and see how much he can get away with, but Saionji? I think he'd rather ride his high horse, just itching for the time when he can pop into the spotlight as the 'good kid' and say "I told you so!"

Re: Saionji and the green monster

I am a Saionji kind of girl too .

The only other piece of info/analysis I would offer, is thus:

Two of the more derided characters are Nanami and Saionji. Not many people give them much thought, or much respect. There are of course fans of both, but there never seems to be to much actual 'oomph' when they are discussed. Unless, of course it is in a comparison between them and a major character. I myself have found that I hardly even talk about Saionji unless Yasha brings him up. (which isn't often, at least around me)

I just might start up a thread about this, to avoid a threadjack, unless Ger doesn't mind.

I will always be here to listen, the question is, whether or not you can hear...

Re: Saionji and the green monster

I don't mind at all! I was just about to mention that the interaction between Nanami and Saionji has always fascinated me - have you noticed she's the ONLY person in the series who calls him by his given name?

I think there was a fic or two a long time ago that I found that had them as a pairing. I'm not sure how viable that would be, but it's interesting...

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Ger wrote:

I don't mind at all! I was just about to mention that the interaction between Nanami and Saionji has always fascinated me - have you noticed she's the ONLY person in the series who calls him by his given name?

I think there was a fic or two a long time ago that I found that had them as a pairing. I'm not sure how viable that would be, but it's interesting...

I wouldn't call them a pairing, and I don't think they'd ever make a good couple (she'd drive him nuts)...but I always got a little bit of a brother by association thing. It's not very obvious but I do get the sense Saionji would be protective of her if someone other than her own brother was really giving her a hard time. I think it comes out in the egg episode, he seems quite tolerant of her eccentricities, given that similar behavior from other members of the cast would end in casts and blood spatters. Instead he lets her punch him and badger him and beg for eggs and all he does is eyeroll, give them over, and say she's 'graceless' like her brother. It's almost affectionate for him.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Giovanna wrote:

Also, belladonna, I wrote that. About a decade ago. I'm flattered you liked it, and glad it made you reconsider Sir Smacksalot. He's, IMO, the least understood and most underappreciated character in the series. The most press he gets is being Touga's bottom, and really ANY character you put Touga next to would have ended up the same. (Except Akio, who was too busy topping him to attract the yaoi fangirls. ) I think there's a lot in Saionji that many of us can relate to, if only a little. Unfortunately the wall of aggression and anger he built around himself to make people hate him, and so justify his own dismal self-esteem, is so effective that it works on us, too.

Re: Saionji and the green monster

I do love Saionji and wondering why he is the way he is. I imagine he's into physical discapline because he must have had an overly strict upbringing. I think his dad probably spanked him as a child... ah the mental image:devil: I used to stupidly think that he was just there as a way of introducing the duels to the viewer at the beginning of the series and thats why he's not in it that often. But HE'S SO MUCH MORE. There really should be more Saionji/Nanami comedy skits.

Plus he gets such a kick ass battle theme in the movie! Best battle ever.

Re: Saionji and the green monster

belladonna wrote:

Very, very true Gio. Yay for your awesome essay.

Why thank you.

Sanguine_Rose wrote:

I do love Saionji and wondering why he is the way he is. I imagine he's into physical discapline because he must have had an overly strict upbringing. I think his dad probably spanked him as a child... ah the mental image:devil:

I definitely think he had a strict upbringing. And spankings. (As as the mental image is, boy Saionji getting spanked just makes me want to hug him and feed him cookies.) What little I know of Japanese parenting suggests he got a heavy dose of the uglier side of it. If we assume Saionji's from a wealthy family, which is no doubt prerequisite to him being in Ohtori, then there might also be the family name to pass down, which would add to his pressure to succeed. This is all conjecture, obviously, but I do think there was a lot of pressure placed on him, especially pressure running against his own sensitive nature. He was taught to be a hardass.

I used to think his denim clothes suggested less wealth than is customary at Ohtori, but really, it's not like rich people don't wear denim, and he especially would favor styles that are 'comfort and the cost of form' sort of things. Saionji doesn't have the self-esteem to wear clothes that are obviously meant to look good. Aside from that, I suspect the contrarian in him that in all things refuses to be Touga factors heavily there. Dressing to look good? Ugh, why doesn't he just start hairflipping?

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Like Nanami, Saionji was one of those characters that had to grow on me first. (Especially after the Anthy-beating first impression, but Anthy had her fair share of cruelty to him too) My favourite thing about him is how sometimes he seems to try and act.. mature's not the word I'm looking for, but anyway, he's such a big kid underneath it all and it's adorable. XD; I especially love his mock-emo moments where he gets so melodramatic and people are like "Okay." Poor Saionji. He needs hugs.

As for pairings for him, I'm kind of partial to Touga/Saionji now. *cough* I was talking about them to my sister once and I showed the picture where Saionji was pulling out Touga's soul-sword, and she said "It's like Christmas lights molesting each other."

"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races onAnd you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

Re: Saionji and the green monster

I needed a break from laughing at FOX NEWS so I switched to Star Trek.

Ohtori Academy needs to start an exchange program with the Klingon Empire, because god damn I cannot listen to Worf for five seconds anymore without thinking of Saionji.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Ger wrote:

Do green roses really exist?

Interesting thought -- why is it that Saionji is the green rose, the one that doesn't exist? (Not that I am entirely sure blue or purple roses, as such, actually exist, but bear with me. ) Someone else pointed out that Saionji first starts out by claiming the castle is a trick of the light, and then he reaches for it. It makes me wonder a little, because you have a green rose...one that shouldn't really exist, although it's not exactly impossible. As far as I remember from biology (and my botany is restricted mainly to toxicology; I tend to know more about how to poison someone with datura more than how to grow a nice daisy), green comes from cholorophyll which is a part of the photosynthetic process. It's there to make energy. The pretty colours of flowers are to attract vectors for pollination, i.e. birds and bees and other strangely sexual metaphors (!). So, Saionji's a green rose. What does that mean? He's the "worker" of the group? Like a worker drone, following the leader until he realises the work has no actual point? Or the less attractive flower, passed over by those who flock to the brighter colours?

Heh, just throwing out some ideas here to see if anyone else has any clearer thoughts. My brain is blown by everyone else's words so far and it hurt to begin with anyway.

It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Clarice wrote:

Interesting thought -- why is it that Saionji is the green rose, the one that doesn't exist? (Not that I am entirely sure blue or purple roses, as such, actually exist, but bear with me. ) Someone else pointed out that Saionji first starts out by claiming the castle is a trick of the light, and then he reaches for it. It makes me wonder a little, because you have a green rose...one that shouldn't really exist, although it's not exactly impossible. As far as I remember from biology (and my botany is restricted mainly to toxicology; I tend to know more about how to poison someone with datura more than how to grow a nice daisy), green comes from cholorophyll which is a part of the photosynthetic process. It's there to make energy. The pretty colours of flowers are to attract vectors for pollination, i.e. birds and bees and other strangely sexual metaphors (!). So, Saionji's a green rose. What does that mean? He's the "worker" of the group? Like a worker drone, following the leader until he realises the work has no actual point? Or the less attractive flower, passed over by those who flock to the brighter colours?

I always figured the green was more for jealousy than anything else - which is why I titled this post the way I did. As we all know, Saionji spends his life under big bad Touga's shadow, and all his wish for "something eternal" is is to gain Touga's friendship back - notwithstanding Touga's nonbelief in friendship and all that other stuff that gets in the way. You said something about poison, also, and green is usually regarded as the universal symbol of poison and/or evil (I think of the Green witch in C.S. Lewis' Prince Rillian), which probably has to do with snakes and that snake imagery going back to the Satan and the Garden of Eden metaphor. (ooh deep)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Saionji as a character never interested me -I've aways preferred Juri, Shiori and Anthy- but I've always wanted to draw assumptions from the fact that his colors are basically Anthy's (and Akio's, to a certain extent) reversed. You know, green hair, purple eyes, purple hair (lilac, in Akio's case), green eyes.

That's just something that always caught me, visually.

The first time you looked at her curves you were hookedAnd the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stayAnd sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and releasedSuch a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Ivy-chan wrote:

There are green roses. BLUE roses are the ones that don't exist. They represent an unattainable wish. (RUKA AND MIKI HAHA)

Well, they didn't exist until a couple years ago, anyway... we have attained our unattainable wish, I suppose. *world implodes*

Anyway, I agree on Saionji's color being green because of jealousy, although because of meaning shade I've always termed it envy in my head. Wikipedia lists the more negative connotations of green as being aggression, inexperience, envy, misfortune, coldness, jealousy, illness, and greed, and those are mostly applicable to Saionji. He's certainly aggressive and cold, inexperienced in more ways than one, and definitely a victim of misfortune, although that's just as applicable to anyone caught in Akio's game. I don't agree with the connotation of greed, however. In Saionji's case, what appears to be his greed for Anthy and his greed for status is more a need to prove himself, and a need for human... not affection, exactly, although that's part of it. Human interaction, I suppose. Truthfulness. Touga's been a major influence on him, and with the way that Touga makes a mockery of talking with him, I can see Saionji feeling like his interactions with people are mostly hollow. He's kind of like a person who detests small talk and then is forced to engage in it for a thousand years.

In fact, it might be that sense of hollow unreality in his day to day life that keeps him so devoted to kendo, and that makes him hit Anthy. The kendo would satisfy that need for personal integrity somewhat; it's something he can provide for himself, by himself, and it satisfies a sense of accomplishment. To perform his kata flawlessly must be one of his greatest pleasures. And hitting Anthy... well, it always struck me as funny that he doesn't care about where he is when he does it, or who sees him do it. The only explanation I can come up with is that since he has the sense of unreality and inability to move beyond hollow gestures, it makes him desperate. The fact that no one reacts to his destructive behavior with equal feeling must seem to make the world even more void of reality.

If you take it this way, I guess you could also say that not letting go of his competition with Utena was his way of holding on to something more real, and when a threshold was reached, that's when he started to disengage from the duels, having satisfied himself that not all interactions were completely void of truth and meaning. And then Akio came along and fucked it all up again.

Also, this could be one of the reasons why he seems to intuit his way around Akio's illusions better than most, so long as it doesn't concern him; he's used to living in a world of illusions, Touga started him on that early. That would also make sense with Nanami's more intuitive bent as well...

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Yasha wrote:

Also, this could be one of the reasons why he seems to intuit his way around Akio's illusions better than most, so long as it doesn't concern him; he's used to living in a world of illusions, Touga started him on that early. That would also make sense with Nanami's more intuitive bent as well...

Huh. That's neat, I never thought about it from that angle before.

Oooo.

Saionji definitely strikes me as someone that would loathe small talk. I suspect in no small part because he's had to sit through years of listening to Touga engage in it with others. I can definitely see how long-term exposure to Touga would develop certain talents Saionji has. Watching and listening to Touga's interactions with others would in time make someone especially aware of the veneer that covers the conversations people have with each other. (The same dynamic of communication that Akio and Touga I think make a point to poke fun at in their behavior.)

Now that I think of it...maybe that's why Saionji seemed to relaxed with them. If you assume, as I just did, that Akio and Touga were deliberately mockingly formal in their communication (which I think they were), then they're engaging in a joke Saionji would really, really get.

And if it's not a joke, he'd be darkly amused at it anyway, I suspect.

Also...the green roses never did open.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Giovanna wrote:

That's all right, next time we're home we'll get some more and this time they'll open. Or I'll tear off their heads and throw them in the bath like I did with the red ones. That'll teach them.

Back on topic, Saionji would definitely develop talents from long-term exposure to Touga. The funny thing is, he doesn't seem to have been a youthful sexual experiment of Touga's, and come on, he's the likely candidate for that sort of thing. Assuming you believe they haven't slept together, that is. But Touga could pressure him into it. I have never been able to work out to my satisfaction why Saionji wasn't. Anyone have any thoughts?

(yeah, I know, sex and Touga come into everything I say. Just live with it, okay, I'm oversexed, frustrated, and obsessed )

Re: Saionji and the green monster

I don't know, I'm of the camp that believes Saionji and Touga are doing something together. Or if they're not, I want them too. I can't find any reaosn why they wouldn't; even if Saionji didn't want to I agree that Touga could persuade him with ease. Sex is what he does, after all. And as much as Saionji says he doesn't like parts of Touga, he's still very dependant on him, be it envy or loathing or lust, or all of them.