I have tried to not say anything about KW thus far. I think he has done a decent job oof putting the team together and I repect his desire to win. however, he needs a pin to pop his huge ego. his ego will cost the sox games. now what i'm talking about is the 5-4 win against Baltimore. They won but they were oh so close to blowing it. some may blame billy koch for blowing it (almost) but i choose to blame kenny williams and his huge ego. Now, anyone and everyone can see that Billy Koch is not the awnswer at closer. Last year he did nothing and so far this year, he has done nothing to be worthy of the closers role. Everyone knows Marte should be the closer. in fact he would be if KW's ego didnt get in the way. You see, last year the sox traded Keith Foulke for Bily Koch. It looked like a good trade at the time, but Kenny just got served. Keith Foulke is the top closer in the AL and Billy Koch got booed everytime he came onto US cellular field. I think everyone knows the story. Well that trade was embarrasing for KW. way too embarrassing for a person with an ego the size of a head of a player on steroids. this year, instead of accepting the fact that he got owned on that trade, he makes Koch the closer and he hopes Koch doesn't make him look like an idiot for last years move. So using his GM power, he makes Koch the closer. I hope no one believes Ozzie really wants Koch to be the closer. Ozzie wants to win, not blow leads in the 9th. KW doesnt care, he just wants to look good. well its safe to say he looks more like an idiot every day that Koch comes in.
Another KW egotistical move is Aaron Rowand. Now Aaron has been given his chance and I think it needs to be over for him. He can't hit and his defense is autrocious. he can't take a decent route on a ball. But if i remember correctly, KW use to be head of drafting players and Aaron was the 35th pick. Now maybe he was a guy that KW really wanted but the rest of the orginization wasn't sure of. Maye KW got his way and took him and now he is trying to prove everyone he was right all along. Whichever is the case. Aaron doesnt deserve an starting OF's job and KW needs to be the one to make a move, but he hasnt. Probably because of his huge inflated ego.

During spring training, I talked with a certain baseball man who had worked with KW. i had asked him what he thought about KW and he gave me a thumbs down. He said he was a bright man but his ego was huge. This man i speak of is the manager of a team but i dont want to say who he is.
Ozzie. Ozzie was another example of KW's huge ego problem. Now it is a decision that has worked thus far. however, Why did Kenny really hire Ozzie? the awnswer is simple. he didnt want to take the blame for a bad hire. however is he hires ozzie guillen this becomes Ozzies team because of his playing days with the Sox and his fiery attitude. of course, it did become ozzies team and whether the sox win or lose seems to be because of ozzie. Now, would it be the same if he hired Terry Francona or Cito Gaston? no. then if the sox screwed up it would be Kennys fault because it wouldnt be their team like it is Ozzies team. so he figures he can hire him and he will get th ok from the fans and his move will be popular but if ozzie fails, its not kennys fault. honestly, i thought ozzie was the worst hiring at the time and i think kenny has gotten lucky on this one. but it all goes back to his enlarged ego. he must learn to make moves on what is in the best interests of the team, not his ego and his image. your thoughts?

OEO Magglio

05-04-2004, 11:21 PM

I hope this thread is a joke. Billy Koch almost blows a save so it's Kenny's fault?? Key word there is almost he is 4 for 5 in save chances leave the guy alone. If it wasn't for kenny shoney wouldn't be in the rotation right now, and he's been terrible so far. Give the kenny bashing a rest, I can't believe your blaming kenny for an almost blown save, that's just ridiculous.

batmanZoSo

05-04-2004, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by jcirish85
I have tried to not say anything about KW thus far. I think he has done a decent job oof putting the team together and I repect his desire to win. however, he needs a pin to pop his huge ego. his ego will cost the sox games. now what i'm talking about is the 5-4 win against Baltimore. They won but they were oh so close to blowing it. some may blame billy koch for blowing it (almost) but i choose to blame kenny williams and his huge ego. Now, anyone and everyone can see that Billy Koch is not the awnswer at closer. Last year he did nothing and so far this year, he has done nothing to be worthy of the closers role. Everyone knows Marte should be the closer. in fact he would be if KW's ego didnt get in the way. You see, last year the sox traded Keith Foulke for Bily Koch. It looked like a good trade at the time, but Kenny just got served. Keith Foulke is the top closer in the AL and Billy Koch got booed everytime he came onto US cellular field. I think everyone knows the story. Well that trade was embarrasing for KW. way too embarrassing for a person with an ego the size of a head of a player on steroids. this year, instead of accepting the fact that he got owned on that trade, he makes Koch the closer and he hopes Koch doesn't make him look like an idiot for last years move. So using his GM power, he makes Koch the closer. I hope no one believes Ozzie really wants Koch to be the closer. Ozzie wants to win, not blow leads in the 9th. KW doesnt care, he just wants to look good. well its safe to say he looks more like an idiot every day that Koch comes in.
Another KW egotistical move is Aaron Rowand. Now Aaron has been given his chance and I think it needs to be over for him. He can't hit and his defense is autrocious. he can't take a decent route on a ball. But if i remember correctly, KW use to be head of drafting players and Aaron was the 35th pick. Now maybe he was a guy that KW really wanted but the rest of the orginization wasn't sure of. Maye KW got his way and took him and now he is trying to prove everyone he was right all along. Whichever is the case. Aaron doesnt deserve an starting OF's job and KW needs to be the one to make a move, but he hasnt. Probably because of his huge inflated ego.

During spring training, I talked with a certain baseball man who had worked with KW. i had asked him what he thought about KW and he gave me a thumbs down. He said he was a bright man but his ego was huge. This man i speak of is the manager of a team but i dont want to say who he is.
Ozzie. Ozzie was another example of KW's huge ego problem. Now it is a decision that has worked thus far. however, Why did Kenny really hire Ozzie? the awnswer is simple. he didnt want to take the blame for a bad hire. however is he hires ozzie guillen this becomes Ozzies team because of his playing days with the Sox and his fiery attitude. of course, it did become ozzies team and whether the sox win or lose seems to be because of ozzie. Now, would it be the same if he hired Terry Francona or Cito Gaston? no. then if the sox screwed up it would be Kennys fault because it wouldnt be their team like it is Ozzies team. so he figures he can hire him and he will get th ok from the fans and his move will be popular but if ozzie fails, its not kennys fault. honestly, i thought ozzie was the worst hiring at the time and i think kenny has gotten lucky on this one. but it all goes back to his enlarged ego. he must learn to make moves on what is in the best interests of the team, not his ego and his image. your thoughts?

What is KW supposed to do with Koch? Dump him? Ego has nothing to do with that.

Do you know why we got Koch for Foulke in the first place? Money. Because he knew we wouldn't re-sign Foulke, so he'd take his chances with Koch who just had a great year and was signed through the next two.

KW has made plenty of large scale bad moves, but many great ones too. He's not perfect, but if he had a better owner he'd be able to get this team what it needs. KW's ego is not the problem, JR's pocketbook is.

OEO Magglio

05-04-2004, 11:24 PM

I'll also add one of these
:threadsucks

Whitesox029

05-04-2004, 11:24 PM

wow. that's all i have to say jc. I suppose I should respect your decision to not disclose the name of the manager you spoke to....since I happen to know.

TornLabrum

05-04-2004, 11:40 PM

The original mistake was trading Foulke and then tying up Koch for two years at a ridiculously high salary (considering the budgetary constraints he is operating under). He did the same thing with Antonio Osuna who ended up spending most of the first year of his contract on the DL.

The problem with KW is that he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes.

mdep524

05-05-2004, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by jcirish85
I have tried to not say anything about KW thus far. I think he has done a decent job oof putting the team together and I repect his desire to win. however, he needs a pin to pop his huge ego. his ego will cost the sox games. now what i'm talking about is the 5-4 win against Baltimore. They won but they were oh so close to blowing it. some may blame billy koch for blowing it (almost) but i choose to blame kenny williams and his huge ego. Now, anyone and everyone can see that Billy Koch is not the awnswer at closer. Last year he did nothing and so far this year, he has done nothing to be worthy of the closers role. Everyone knows Marte should be the closer. in fact he would be if KW's ego didnt get in the way. You see, last year the sox traded Keith Foulke for Bily Koch. It looked like a good trade at the time, but Kenny just got served. Keith Foulke is the top closer in the AL and Billy Koch got booed everytime he came onto US cellular field. I think everyone knows the story. Well that trade was embarrasing for KW. way too embarrassing for a person with an ego the size of a head of a player on steroids. this year, instead of accepting the fact that he got owned on that trade, he makes Koch the closer and he hopes Koch doesn't make him look like an idiot for last years move. So using his GM power, he makes Koch the closer. I hope no one believes Ozzie really wants Koch to be the closer. Ozzie wants to win, not blow leads in the 9th. KW doesnt care, he just wants to look good. well its safe to say he looks more like an idiot every day that Koch comes in.
Another KW egotistical move is Aaron Rowand. Now Aaron has been given his chance and I think it needs to be over for him. He can't hit and his defense is autrocious. he can't take a decent route on a ball. But if i remember correctly, KW use to be head of drafting players and Aaron was the 35th pick. Now maybe he was a guy that KW really wanted but the rest of the orginization wasn't sure of. Maye KW got his way and took him and now he is trying to prove everyone he was right all along. Whichever is the case. Aaron doesnt deserve an starting OF's job and KW needs to be the one to make a move, but he hasnt. Probably because of his huge inflated ego.

During spring training, I talked with a certain baseball man who had worked with KW. i had asked him what he thought about KW and he gave me a thumbs down. He said he was a bright man but his ego was huge. This man i speak of is the manager of a team but i dont want to say who he is.
Ozzie. Ozzie was another example of KW's huge ego problem. Now it is a decision that has worked thus far. however, Why did Kenny really hire Ozzie? the awnswer is simple. he didnt want to take the blame for a bad hire. however is he hires ozzie guillen this becomes Ozzies team because of his playing days with the Sox and his fiery attitude. of course, it did become ozzies team and whether the sox win or lose seems to be because of ozzie. Now, would it be the same if he hired Terry Francona or Cito Gaston? no. then if the sox screwed up it would be Kennys fault because it wouldnt be their team like it is Ozzies team. so he figures he can hire him and he will get th ok from the fans and his move will be popular but if ozzie fails, its not kennys fault. honestly, i thought ozzie was the worst hiring at the time and i think kenny has gotten lucky on this one. but it all goes back to his enlarged ego. he must learn to make moves on what is in the best interests of the team, not his ego and his image. your thoughts?

I'll agree that KW has, from whay I can see, a huge ego that gets in the way of player assessment and evaluation to some degree. But I wouldn't take it as far as you, and I especially disagree about the Ozzie hiring.

Whitesox029

05-05-2004, 12:18 AM

Ok now that I've recovered.... Ozzie's fine, you didn't give KW credit for what's looking like a steal of Uribe, and he's TRYING, which is a heck of a lot more than I can say for Schueler.

iwannago

05-05-2004, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by Whitesox029
Ok now that I've recovered.... Ozzie's fine, you didn't give KW credit for what's looking like a steal of Uribe, and he's TRYING, which is a heck of a lot more than I can say for Schueler.

I would take Schueler any day over KW.

SSN721

05-05-2004, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I'll also add one of these
:threadsucks

I second that.

SoxOnTop

05-05-2004, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by iwannago
I would take Schueler any day over KW.

That's an absolute joke!

Name a single player outside of Ray Durham that Schueler drafted and developed in the 90's that amounted to anything outside of a cup of coffee in the MLB. All that joker ever did was sit back and let the talented group Larry Himes' put together waste away. When he couldn't develope the impact player that group desperately needed to get over the top, he made terrible acquisitions and then traded away the farm. Need I remind you of Albert Belle, Jaime Navaro, Scott Rufcorn, Lyle Mouton, Bell for Sosa, the treatment of Carlton Fisk, Terry freakin' Bevington and the White Flag trade? All on Schueler's watch. All that guy was good for was picking up broken RFers for Herm to fix up for a comeback year (DJ, Ellis Burks, etc....).

soxtalker

05-05-2004, 08:51 AM

KW certainly appears to have a big ego, and I agree largely with jcirish85's initial post here. However, I would give KW a bit more slack on some of the issues. I do see evidence that he's learned from his early mistakes (e.g., the Ritchie deal).

I also think that Koch is a mistake, but let's see what KW does with him. Koch's performance so far -- while it drives many of us crazy -- has probably made him very attractive to a team that doesn't have a closer. If KW had given up on him, that wouldn't be the case. Of course, KW may not be thinking along these lines at all, though I doubt that Koch is on the untouchable list for trades.

KW's aggressiveness ("trying" as Whitesox029 commented) is appealing to many fans, but it cuts both ways. I hated it when it resulted in the Ritchie deal, but it was great in the acquisition of Colon. I guess that I'd like aggressiveness combined with wisdom. KW has had the former since the very beginning; maybe he is gaining the latter with experience.

Tragg

05-05-2004, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by iwannago
I would take Schueler any day over KW.

Absolutely not
No way, Jose.

We seem to forget the infatuation with Cory Snyder and assorted other ills from the Scheuler regime (Gene Lamont, Terry Bevington to name 2)

Dadawg_77

05-05-2004, 09:53 AM

:threadrules:

Can we get a fire Kenny tag? We have a fire Gary Ward, Pettis and even a fire Ozzie tag, but no fire Kenny.

hold2dibber

05-05-2004, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by jcirish85
I have tried to not say anything about KW thus far. I think he has done a decent job oof putting the team together and I repect his desire to win. however, he needs a pin to pop his huge ego. his ego will cost the sox games. now what i'm talking about is the 5-4 win against Baltimore. They won but they were oh so close to blowing it. some may blame billy koch for blowing it (almost) but i choose to blame kenny williams and his huge ego. Now, anyone and everyone can see that Billy Koch is not the awnswer at closer. Last year he did nothing and so far this year, he has done nothing to be worthy of the closers role. Everyone knows Marte should be the closer. in fact he would be if KW's ego didnt get in the way. You see, last year the sox traded Keith Foulke for Bily Koch. It looked like a good trade at the time, but Kenny just got served. Keith Foulke is the top closer in the AL and Billy Koch got booed everytime he came onto US cellular field. I think everyone knows the story. Well that trade was embarrasing for KW. way too embarrassing for a person with an ego the size of a head of a player on steroids. this year, instead of accepting the fact that he got owned on that trade, he makes Koch the closer and he hopes Koch doesn't make him look like an idiot for last years move. So using his GM power, he makes Koch the closer. I hope no one believes Ozzie really wants Koch to be the closer. Ozzie wants to win, not blow leads in the 9th. KW doesnt care, he just wants to look good. well its safe to say he looks more like an idiot every day that Koch comes in.
Another KW egotistical move is Aaron Rowand. Now Aaron has been given his chance and I think it needs to be over for him. He can't hit and his defense is autrocious. he can't take a decent route on a ball. But if i remember correctly, KW use to be head of drafting players and Aaron was the 35th pick. Now maybe he was a guy that KW really wanted but the rest of the orginization wasn't sure of. Maye KW got his way and took him and now he is trying to prove everyone he was right all along. Whichever is the case. Aaron doesnt deserve an starting OF's job and KW needs to be the one to make a move, but he hasnt. Probably because of his huge inflated ego.

During spring training, I talked with a certain baseball man who had worked with KW. i had asked him what he thought about KW and he gave me a thumbs down. He said he was a bright man but his ego was huge. This man i speak of is the manager of a team but i dont want to say who he is.
Ozzie. Ozzie was another example of KW's huge ego problem. Now it is a decision that has worked thus far. however, Why did Kenny really hire Ozzie? the awnswer is simple. he didnt want to take the blame for a bad hire. however is he hires ozzie guillen this becomes Ozzies team because of his playing days with the Sox and his fiery attitude. of course, it did become ozzies team and whether the sox win or lose seems to be because of ozzie. Now, would it be the same if he hired Terry Francona or Cito Gaston? no. then if the sox screwed up it would be Kennys fault because it wouldnt be their team like it is Ozzies team. so he figures he can hire him and he will get th ok from the fans and his move will be popular but if ozzie fails, its not kennys fault. honestly, i thought ozzie was the worst hiring at the time and i think kenny has gotten lucky on this one. but it all goes back to his enlarged ego. he must learn to make moves on what is in the best interests of the team, not his ego and his image. your thoughts?

Just because some baseball guy tells you KW has a big ego doesn't mean you can ascribe every problem the Sox have to that ego. You're off the deep end here. You can find fault with KW on various issues/levels, but your post is completely off the wall and amounts to, at best, rank speculation that is illogical to boot.

inta

05-05-2004, 10:17 AM

Yeah KW should go to the Closer store and get a new one, coz we know there's just SO many good available closers out there...

iwannago

05-05-2004, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by SoxOnTop
That's an absolute joke!

Name a single player outside of Ray Durham that Schueler drafted and developed in the 90's that amounted to anything outside of a cup of coffee in the MLB. All that joker ever did was sit back and let the talented group Larry Himes' put together waste away. When he couldn't develope the impact player that group desperately needed to get over the top, he made terrible acquisitions and then traded away the farm. Need I remind you of Albert Belle, Jaime Navaro, Scott Rufcorn, Lyle Mouton, Bell for Sosa, the treatment of Carlton Fisk, Terry freakin' Bevington and the White Flag trade? All on Schueler's watch. All that guy was good for was picking up broken RFers for Herm to fix up for a comeback year (DJ, Ellis Burks, etc....).

How about 1993, 1994, and 2000.

Randar68

05-05-2004, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Tragg
Absolutely not
No way, Jose.

We seem to forget the infatuation with Cory Snyder and assorted other ills from the Scheuler regime (Gene Lamont, Terry Bevington to name 2)

The only thing you need to know about Ron is "Jason Dallaero"

Aside from the multitudes of other bad moves, the lack of really good moves, and the general "sitting on his hands" that Schueler did, "Jason Dallaero" and the story of him being drafted is enough to be the final nail in Ron's coffin.

iwannago

05-05-2004, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Randar68
The only thing you need to know about Ron is "Jason Dallaero"

Aside from the multitudes of other bad moves, the lack of really good moves, and the general "sitting on his hands" that Schueler did, "Jason Dallaero" and the story of him being drafted is enough to be the final nail in Ron's coffin.

Before you talk about the Dallaero pick check out the Sox picks for 1965 on in MLB.com. You will find this very interesting.

Randar68

05-05-2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by iwannago
Before you talk about the Dallaero pick check out the Sox picks for 1965 on in MLB.com. You will find this very interesting.

You got a link for that? I didn't even mention Ron drafting his daughter in the 35th (IIRC???) round, what was 4 rounds before Mark Buehrle would be drafted some years later... What a waste...

iwannago

05-05-2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
You got a link for that? I didn't even mention Ron drafting his daughter in the 35th (IIRC???) round, what was 4 rounds before Mark Buehrle would be drafted some years later... What a waste...

Sorry, its in the ESPN.com the White Sox page under draft.

I'd rather have Bozo the clown than KW.

Maybe they are one in the same.

Randar68

05-05-2004, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by iwannago
Sorry, its in the ESPN.com the White Sox page under draft.

I'd rather have Bozo the clown than KW.

Maybe they are one in the same.

1965 draft? Seriously, what are you talking about? I looked through the entire 1965 draft and didn't see anything the Sox did in that draft to be "interesting."

Dadawg_77

05-05-2004, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
The only thing you need to know about Ron is "Jason Dallaero"

Aside from the multitudes of other bad moves, the lack of really good moves, and the general "sitting on his hands" that Schueler did, "Jason Dallaero" and the story of him being drafted is enough to be the final nail in Ron's coffin.

We got the wrong lieutenant of Alderson.

hold2dibber

05-05-2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
The only thing you need to know about Ron is "Jason Dallaero"

Aside from the multitudes of other bad moves, the lack of really good moves, and the general "sitting on his hands" that Schueler did, "Jason Dallaero" and the story of him being drafted is enough to be the final nail in Ron's coffin.

Please share - I don't think I know that story.

batmanZoSo

05-05-2004, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
The only thing you need to know about Ron is "Jason Dallaero"

Aside from the multitudes of other bad moves, the lack of really good moves, and the general "sitting on his hands" that Schueler did, "Jason Dallaero" and the story of him being drafted is enough to be the final nail in Ron's coffin.

I coulda sworn I came across some scout saying Dellaero was the best shortstop he'd ever seen. I know the guy threw almost 100mph from short to first, but couldn't hit a lick. What was the big story with drafting him?

Randar68

05-05-2004, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I coulda sworn I came across some scout saying Dellaero was the best shortstop he'd ever seen. I know the guy threw almost 100mph from short to first, but couldn't hit a lick. What was the big story with drafting him?

The reader's digest version is this:

Very good defensive shortstop who couldn't hit. Schueler was told not to draft him until the 3rd round at the earliest, that he would certainly still be there. Schueler loved the guy and ignored his entire scouting staff in order to draft him.

Kids will learn to be better defensive players, as it's often under-taught in HS, but hitting is something that has to come natural to a large extent. You can make mechanical changes etc etc, but pitch-recognition and reaction are things that are hard to teach or to improve on. Dallaero should have been a pitcher (I know, hindsight is 20/20)

The real thing is, why have numerous scouts, directors and evaluators if you aren't going to listen to them? Undermines the entire process.

Lip Man 1

05-05-2004, 02:07 PM

Iwango says: "How about 1993, 1994"

Both teams constructed on the draft picks by then GM Larry Himes. The last time Sox 'can't miss kids,' actually produced in quanity and quality.

Schuler's best trade was his first one, getting Tim Raines from Montral on December 24, 1990.

Lip

iwannago

05-05-2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
1965 draft? Seriously, what are you talking about? I looked through the entire 1965 draft and didn't see anything the Sox did in that draft to be "interesting."

Well than you got my point. If you thought Schuller drafted poorly look at the Sox draft history, with the exception of a few the Sox drafts have been ****ty.

hold2dibber

05-05-2004, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by iwannago
Well than you got my point. If you thought Schuller drafted poorly look at the Sox draft history, with the exception of a few the Sox drafts have been ****ty.

If that's the best argument you can come up with in support of Schueler, that says a lot.

iwannago

05-05-2004, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by hold2dibber
If that's the best argument you can come up with in support of Schueler, that says a lot.

I'm not agruing for Schuller as much as I am against KW. You would be a better GM than KW.

hold2dibber

05-05-2004, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by iwannago
I'm not agruing for Schuller as much as I am against KW. You would be a better GM than KW.

Well, ahem, I'm flattered. (Although I don't know if I agree with your assesment as I was all for trying to deal Crede for Weaver a few years ago, thought the Sox should go after Omar Daal the off season before last and have otherwise touted some personnel changes that make me cringe when I think about them now. :smile: )

I personally think KW is a decent GM. Overall, I think his trading history has more "hits" than misses, though he has had a few clunkers (with the Ritchie deal being the most obvious example). His handling of the payroll, on the other hand, has been pretty bad (paying way too much for Osuna, Koch, Konerko, CLee, etc.)

soxruleEP

05-05-2004, 06:04 PM

Rather than harrange KW on Koch--that was a deal that had to be done for a number of reasons that have already been beaten to death on this board. Let's look at what he has done:

Obtained an everyday catcher who shows all signs of being an outstanding regular for many years for a relief pitcher.

Pulled the Cy Young runner-up off the scrap heap.

Saw something in a left-handed relief pitcher for the Angels as a starting pitcher--the jury is still out but he looks okay.

Traded a second baseman who was never going to play for the Sox for a player next year's shortstop and this year's early season MVP.

Obtained a batch of players to make a run at a pennant at the all-star break last season that didn't cost much but was screwed up by the idiot Manuel.

Tried to get a major starter and failed twice but didn't hurt the team based on the traded players performance.

This is at least a passable resume. If KW had someone write a book about what he's doing, he'd have a different reputation.

Randar68

05-05-2004, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by iwannago
I'm not agruing for Schuller as much as I am against KW. You would be a better GM than KW.

HUH? What has been so terrible about KW? He traded Sean Lowe, and some around here won't let that drop until either they or KW die.

He got Colon for NOTHING.
He got Olivo for Bradford
He got Marte for nothing
He got Tom Gordon for basically nothing last year (and an extra draft pick this years courtesy of NY)
He got David Wells (I thought it was a good move at the time as did "most" others)
He got Alomar and Everett for low-level prospects or a middle-reliever and took on no extra salary
He got Mike Jackson and Loaiza off the scrap heap
He got Juan Uribe for Aaron "The Human Pylon" Miles

Sure, he made the Ritchie trade.
Sure, he made the Foulke trade (was gone when FA hit anyways, BTW)
Sure he signed Koch and Konerko to bad contracts.

The last few drafts under his watch have been very good.

It's difficult to operate under the constraints that have been placed on him salary-wise, and in order to do anything, he's had to be very flexible and creative. It's a very undesirable position to be in, and he's done a very good job IMO. He's taken chances, some have worked out, others haven't.

It's very easy to be an arm-chair GM, but being an actual GM, especially under the circumstances KW is in, is not an easy or enviable job. Despite that, KW has done as well as anyone could have, IMO.

hold2dibber

05-05-2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
HUH? What has been so terrible about KW? He traded Sean Lowe, and some around here won't let that drop until either they or KW die.

He got Colon for NOTHING.
He got Olivo for Bradford
He got Marte for nothing
He got Tom Gordon for basically nothing last year (and an extra draft pick this years courtesy of NY)
He got David Wells (I thought it was a good move at the time as did "most" others)
He got Alomar and Everett for low-level prospects or a middle-reliever and took on no extra salary
He got Mike Jackson and Loaiza off the scrap heap
He got Juan Uribe for Aaron "The Human Pylon" Miles

Sure, he made the Ritchie trade.
Sure, he made the Foulke trade (was gone when FA hit anyways, BTW)
Sure he signed Koch and Konerko to bad contracts.

The last few drafts under his watch have been very good.

It's difficult to operate under the constraints that have been placed on him salary-wise, and in order to do anything, he's had to be very flexible and creative. It's a very undesirable position to be in, and he's done a very good job IMO. He's taken chances, some have worked out, others haven't.

It's very easy to be an arm-chair GM, but being an actual GM, especially under the circumstances KW is in, is not an easy or enviable job. Despite that, KW has done as well as anyone could have, IMO.

Well said.

jabrch

05-05-2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by soxruleEP
This is at least a passable resume. If KW had someone write a book about what he's doing, he'd have a different reputation.

ABSOLUTELY

If KW wrote a pompously arrogant windbaggy book and catered to the armchair GMs of the world with something that they could relate to (the calculator is more powerful than the trained eye of a veteran baseball scout) then he'd be lauded as "The Great KW" and people would say he was being held back by the lack of budget that his owner has given him.

jabrch

05-05-2004, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
HUH? What has been so terrible about KW? He traded Sean Lowe, and some around here won't let that drop until either they or KW die.

He got Colon for NOTHING.
He got Olivo for Bradford
He got Marte for nothing
He got Tom Gordon for basically nothing last year (and an extra draft pick this years courtesy of NY)
He got David Wells (I thought it was a good move at the time as did "most" others)
He got Alomar and Everett for low-level prospects or a middle-reliever and took on no extra salary
He got Mike Jackson and Loaiza off the scrap heap
He got Juan Uribe for Aaron "The Human Pylon" Miles

Sure, he made the Ritchie trade.
Sure, he made the Foulke trade (was gone when FA hit anyways, BTW)
Sure he signed Koch and Konerko to bad contracts.

The last few drafts under his watch have been very good.

It's difficult to operate under the constraints that have been placed on him salary-wise, and in order to do anything, he's had to be very flexible and creative. It's a very undesirable position to be in, and he's done a very good job IMO. He's taken chances, some have worked out, others haven't.

It's very easy to be an arm-chair GM, but being an actual GM, especially under the circumstances KW is in, is not an easy or enviable job. Despite that, KW has done as well as anyone could have, IMO.

Yeah - what he said...

Hondo

05-05-2004, 06:18 PM

KW put a team together last year that was the most talented in the AL Central. Whether you feel that should be filed under "tallest midget" fine but they would have faced the Yankees who they smoked. The Yankees were in game 7 of the WS last year.

KW can only put the pieces together.

This year he assembled a team, hired a first year manager(with Jerry's seal of approval) that is thus far exceeding any expectations of pundits.

He's grown into one of the best GM's in baseball.

Right now we have a better record than the hot names

Riccardi in Toronto
Beane in Oakland
Epstein in Boston
Cashman in New York.

Will it last? Who knows but KW has done his job. Now the onus is on the players. If he has an ego. Good on him. It seems to do him just fine.

Randar68

05-05-2004, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by Hondo
KW put a team together last year that was the most talented in the AL Central. Whether you feel that should be filed under "tallest midget" fine but they would have faced the Yankees who they smoked. The Yankees were in game 7 of the WS last year.

KW can only put the pieces together.

This year he assembled a team, hired a first year manager(with Jerry's seal of approval) that is thus far exceeding any expectations of pundits.

He's grown into one of the best GM's in baseball.

Right now we have a better record than the hot names

Riccardi in Toronto
Beane in Oakland
Epstein in Boston
Cashman in New York.

Will it last? Who knows but KW has done his job. Now the onus is on the players. If he has an ego. Good on him. It seems to do him just fine.

Also well said. Hopefully that was enough of a smack-down to shut them up for a while...

jabrch

05-05-2004, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
Also well said. Hopefully that was enough of a smack-down to shut them up for a while...

I smell the "small sample size" arguement coming...

Daver

05-05-2004, 06:36 PM

If the White Sox ever had a GM with an ego problem it was Schueler,not KW.

Lets talk about Jumbotron Ron.

Drafted Jason Dallero in the first round,when told not to.

Drafted Mark Johnson in the first round,when told not to.

Drafted Mark Zeringue in the first round,after being told he would not sign by his agent.

Drafted Aaron Rowand in the first round,when told not to

Drafted his own daughter in the 32nd round.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Randar68

05-05-2004, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Daver
Drafted Mark Zeringue in the first round,after being told he would not sign by his agent.

What year was that?

jabrch

05-05-2004, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
What year was that?

Zerengue was taken in the very end of the third round in 2001. We had already taken Honel, Wyatt Allen and Wing.

Randar68

05-05-2004, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by jabrch
Zerengue was taken in the very end of the third round in 2001. We had already taken Honel, Wyatt Allen and Wing.

That was "Jon" Zeringue. not Mark, so I'm wondering if there's someone else I'm not thinking of, and like you said, Jon was drafted in the third round, not first...

jabrch

05-05-2004, 07:05 PM

jon, mark...whatever... :)

RedPinStripes

05-05-2004, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by iwannago
I would take Schueler any day over KW.

Ok. now this thread is REALLY starting to suck.

jcirish85

05-05-2004, 08:11 PM

i think some people have misundertood me maybe because of the length of the post. i think KW is a decent GM. hes not great but hes not awful. what i meant to say is that his ego is beginning to get in the way of the team, most notably the problem with the closer. marte needs to be the closer and kw's ego is the reason that he is not. thats what i meant to say. sry for any confusion.

balboner

05-05-2004, 08:15 PM

It doesn't matter about KW's ego or not. If the sox dont make the playoffs this year, he won't be back next year. He's had a long enough span to try and develop a winner, and he has not accomplished that.

RedPinStripes

05-05-2004, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by balboner
It doesn't matter about KW's ego or not. If the sox dont make the playoffs this year, he won't be back next year. He's had a long enough span to try and develop a winner, and he has not accomplished that.

I highly doubt KW will get fired after this year playoffs or not. He's done a hell of a job with the budget a certain cheap ass gives him. Dont get me wrong. A few salaries are rediculous and hold this team back. ex: Konerko, Lee, KOCH.

jabrch

05-05-2004, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by jcirish85
i think some people have misundertood me maybe because of the length of the post. i think KW is a decent GM. hes not great but hes not awful. what i meant to say is that his ego is beginning to get in the way of the team, most notably the problem with the closer. marte needs to be the closer and kw's ego is the reason that he is not. thats what i meant to say. sry for any confusion.

Kenny isnt the field manager. If you want to blame someone for Marte not coming in to pitch the ninth, you have to blame Ozzie. Frankly, I don't mind Koch closing. It is important to be able to bring Marte in to face lefties or tough situations in the 7th or the 8th. Sure I wish we had a Gagne/Wagner type closer, but we don't.

jabrch

05-05-2004, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I highly doubt KW will get fired after this year playoffs or not. He's done a hell of a job with the budget a certain cheap ass gives him. Dont get me wrong. A few salaries are rediculous and hold this team back. ex: Konerko, Lee, KOCH.

How is Lee's salary ridiculous? Look at his performance for a full season last year. Not bad, huh?

gosox41

05-06-2004, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by inta
Yeah KW should go to the Closer store and get a new one, coz we know there's just SO many good available closers out there...

Well he had one that he exchanged for another closer. Turns out that one is as fake as the NY vendor selling Prada on the street corners.

Bob

gosox41

05-06-2004, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Randar68
HUH? What has been so terrible about KW? He traded Sean Lowe, and some around here won't let that drop until either they or KW die.

He got Colon for NOTHING.
He got Olivo for Bradford
He got Marte for nothing
He got Tom Gordon for basically nothing last year (and an extra draft pick this years courtesy of NY)
He got David Wells (I thought it was a good move at the time as did "most" others)
He got Alomar and Everett for low-level prospects or a middle-reliever and took on no extra salary
He got Mike Jackson and Loaiza off the scrap heap
He got Juan Uribe for Aaron "The Human Pylon" Miles

Sure, he made the Ritchie trade.
Sure, he made the Foulke trade (was gone when FA hit anyways, BTW)
Sure he signed Koch and Konerko to bad contracts.

The last few drafts under his watch have been very good.

It's difficult to operate under the constraints that have been placed on him salary-wise, and in order to do anything, he's had to be very flexible and creative. It's a very undesirable position to be in, and he's done a very good job IMO. He's taken chances, some have worked out, others haven't.

It's very easy to be an arm-chair GM, but being an actual GM, especially under the circumstances KW is in, is not an easy or enviable job. Despite that, KW has done as well as anyone could have, IMO.

I don't like KW at all. He is improving but has a long way to go.

They never won when those players were here because he was to busy creating other holes at the same time he was filling them.

He has caused a lot of the problems because of his inability to negotiate a good contract with a player. Those salary constraints wouldn't be as bad if KW didn't overvalue all his assets.

And maybe Foulke was going to leave anyway as a FA. But it is unbelievable stupid to trade him for a lesser pitcher when a team is trying to win NOW. It basically created a hole, a hole I've been beating to death since the day we got Koch before he threw his first pitch with us..

That is not a sign of a good GM...'I'm trying to win now, but I'm going to trade a good closer for a worse one because he's going to leave at the end of the season' Nice logic. Let him leave. Get the 2 draft picks and win now with what you know is better. Having Koch instead of Foulke last season kept this team out of the playoffs....basically KW filled holes with COlon, Alomar, and Everett then created a huge one by trading Koch.

And if you're telling me that KW acutally thought Koch was as good as Foulke, well that's reason enough to see that KW is a lousy, stupid GM.

Bob

jabrch

05-06-2004, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by gosox41
Well he had one that he exchanged for another closer. Turns out that one is as fake as the NY vendor selling Prada on the street corners.

Bob

If you recall Bob, the one he had was A) a FA after the season and B) not good enough to have the manager (however much a bozo he was) hand him the ball.

Foulke was done in Chicago. He wasn't going to close here anymore. The manager wouldn't hand him the ball.

Can we get past 2002? It is a long way away. I'd really rather focus on 2004.

Tragg

05-06-2004, 12:50 AM

This is at least a passable resume. If KW had someone write a book about what he's doing, he'd have a different reputation.
LOL- but so true, so true.

I agree with yall that he's overpaid some players- add Valentine to the list.
I think getting clayton on this team was a real bad move- he was a disease.

Overall, far more hits than misses and he's much better than his predecessor.

jabrch

05-06-2004, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Tragg
This is at least a passable resume. If KW had someone write a book about what he's doing, he'd have a different reputation.
LOL- but so true, so true.

I agree with yall that he's overpaid some players- add Valentine to the list.

He has overpayed a few players - no doubt. But he has also found quite a good group of bargains. I don't think he is a great GM - but I surely think he deserves more credit than many give him, and that Billy Beane/Michael Lewis' portrayal of him in Moneyball is ridiculous.

gosox41

05-06-2004, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by jabrch
If you recall Bob, the one he had was A) a FA after the season and B) not good enough to have the manager (however much a bozo he was) hand him the ball.

Foulke was done in Chicago. He wasn't going to close here anymore. The manager wouldn't hand him the ball.

Can we get past 2002? It is a long way away. I'd really rather focus on 2004.

I can't get past 2003. And who kept JM around all this time? One of the first moves as GM of this team was to extend JM. How did that work out?

I try to rate trades at the time they happen by not lonly looking at talent, but age, contract status, stats, and the GM's logic behind the trade. Any bonehead could tell you trades were good/bad 10 years later. But I call them as I see them. So far KW has proven me right. I want to be wrong because I think the thrill of watching the Sox win and me enjoying and gloating about it is worth a ton more then any heat I take in here.

Foulke was done in CHicago because this management team didn't give him the support he needed. That's on both KW and JM (unless it's good for a players confidence to blow a save and then have the GM spaz out in the locker room tipping over tables)

Funny how Foule gets pulled after blowing a couple of saves in '02 and now we're stuck watching Koch make every game too close. Sure he's getting the job done now, but I bet it doesn't continue with him. Only a matter of time before this all catches up with him. Koch is no different then last season, but for some odd reason the Sox show enough faith in him to close games even when he loses his bread and butter pitch, but they're so quick to give up on Foulke even though he's been nothing but consistent.

Bob

Randar68

05-06-2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by gosox41
And if you're telling me that KW acutally thought Koch was as good as Foulke, well that's reason enough to see that KW is a lousy, stupid GM.

*****. Thanks for playing, Bob...

anyone out there want to discuss something with an open mind?

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
*****. Thanks for playing, Bob...

anyone out there want to discuss something with an open mind?

Come Randar even you can admit Kenny made a major mistake that he should have seen coming in this trade. And Kenny doesn't deserve to still hold his job.

beckett21

05-06-2004, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Come Randar even you can admit Kenny made a major mistake that he should have seen coming in this trade. And Kenny doesn't deserve to still hold his job.

Let's remember that Neal Cotts is here thanks to that trade as well, as he was one of the players to be named later.

As bad as Koch is, let's all remember that the jury is still out on the deal. IF Cotts turns out to be a contributor, then guess what...it wasn't that bad after all.

Personally I have to say that my opinion of KW has changed. I think it's time that he gets a fair shake.

Anyone who sings the praises of Cotts needs to acknowledge why he is here in the first place, irregardless of Botch.

Hondo

05-06-2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Come Randar even you can admit Kenny made a major mistake that he should have seen coming in this trade. And Kenny doesn't deserve to still hold his job.

KW is a good GM and does deserve his job.
Do you anaylze the moves of JP Riccardi as much as you do KW's? How about Beane's or Cashman's?

Maybe KW seems worse because we see the good and the bad.
The 2003 had the most talent in the AL Central and should have been playing in the ALCS at the minimum.

This year's team has one of the best records in baseball thus far.

He put the pieces together. He can't field and hit too.

And comments like "I don't like KW". Well that automatically poo poo's on an credibility you have.
I don't care if KW is the most unbearable SOB on the face of the planet as long as we win it's fine.

My opinoin? KW is in the Top 5 GM's in baseball

Shurholtz in Atlanta
Beinfest in Florida
Beane in Oakland
Ryan in Minnesota
KW in Chicago

jabrch

05-06-2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
And Kenny doesn't deserve to still hold his job.

I totally disagree. With all the terrible GMs out there, Kenny has done a decent job on a limited budget.

JRIG

05-06-2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
Let's remember that Neal Cotts is here thanks to that trade as well, as he was one of the players to be named later.

As bad as Koch is, let's all remember that the jury is still out on the deal. IF Cotts turns out to be a contributor, then guess what...it wasn't that bad after all.

If you think getting a player who helped sabotage our season last year and continues to stink this year along with a "contributing" bullpen member in exchange for arguably the best relief pitcher in baseball the past five years is an even exchange...well, I can't help you there.

And let's not forget KW extended Koch's contract for another season at $6.375 million before he even threw one pitch as a member of the White Sox.

hold2dibber

05-06-2004, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
If you think getting a player who helped sabotage our season last year and continues to stink this year along with a "contributing" bullpen member in exchange for arguably the best relief pitcher in baseball the past five years is an even exchange...well, I can't help you there.

And let's not forget KW extended Koch's contract for another season at $6.375 million before he even threw one pitch as a member of the White Sox.

And Billy Beane gave a huge contract to Terrance Long and paid a ton of money to Jermaine Dye.

And Cashman paid tons of dough to Contreras and way overpaid Jeter.

Gillick traded for and paid big bucks to Cirillo.

Schurholz backed himself into a corner and ended up trading Millwood for a AAAA catcher.

And on and on and on. You can -- and should -- criticize KW on the Koch deal (although if Cotts turns out to be a reliable starter, that would make the deal more palatable). But it seems to me that many Sox fans let their closeness to the Sox and their displeasure with the bad deals he's made forget about the big picture. He hasn't been perfect, but NO GM is perfect. He's made mistakes just like all of them make. Overall, however, he has done a decent job - better than some, worse than others. He's had some great successes (Marte, Gordon, Colon, Uribe) and some bombs (Ritchie, Koch). But overall he's put a team on the field that has had enough talent to win the division every year, which is not easy to do with the budget constraints imposed upon him.

beckett21

05-06-2004, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
If you think getting a player who helped sabotage our season last year and continues to stink this year along with a "contributing" bullpen member in exchange for arguably the best relief pitcher in baseball the past five years is an even exchange...well, I can't help you there.

And let's not forget KW extended Koch's contract for another season at $6.375 million before he even threw one pitch as a member of the White Sox.

If/when Cotts joins the rotation then we got a starter out of the deal. A big IF, but if he becomes a rotation mainstay then yes I would say that in the long run it worked out.

Trust me. I wish we never got Koch. He is not solely responsible for what happened last year though. Everett, Alomar, Colon were all good pickups. We still fell flat on our faces, but it wasn't all on Koch.

And whoever before me said that Foulke's days as OUR closer were OVER....that is correct. I liked him but he was on the way out of town no matter what. So, like so many others have said, TIME TO GET OVER IT.

Foulke wasn't going to do it in a Sox uniform (White Sox that is). His stature had been undermined by Manual, and that could not be undone. He had to move on. So do we. Is he better than Koch? No doubt about it. But a change of scenery was inevitable.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Hondo
KW is a good GM and does deserve his job.
Do you anaylze the moves of JP Riccardi as much as you do KW's? How about Beane's or Cashman's?

Maybe KW seems worse because we see the good and the bad.
The 2003 had the most talent in the AL Central and should have been playing in the ALCS at the minimum.

This year's team has one of the best records in baseball thus far.

He put the pieces together. He can't field and hit too.

And comments like "I don't like KW". Well that automatically poo poo's on an credibility you have.
I don't care if KW is the most unbearable SOB on the face of the planet as long as we win it's fine.

My opinoin? KW is in the Top 5 GM's in baseball

Shurholtz in Atlanta
Beinfest in Florida
Beane in Oakland
Ryan in Minnesota
KW in Chicago

Having Kenny in your top five "poo poo" your credibility.

Hondo

05-06-2004, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Having Kenny in your top five "poo poo" your credibility.

ok....WHY? because you said so?

jabrch

05-06-2004, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
If you think getting a player who helped sabotage our season last year

Sabotage? *****

beckett21

05-06-2004, 02:18 PM

Since this thread is about KW's ego, how about the ego of some of the KW bashers here?

I can admit when I am wrong. From what I have read from many of the pro-KW posters on WSI, all of whom have baseball knowledge far superior to mine, my stance on KW has done a 180. For all the Billy Beane hype, what has HE won?? Not even a division series. Another product of media hype, a media darling.

KW has shown he is not afraid to make moves in order to try to improve the team despite financial handcuffs. To go along with a saying I firmly believe, in order to succeed one cannot be afraid to fail. KW has proved that to me.

Like I said, I can admit when I am wrong. You can put me on the pro-side of the KW ledger now. Far from perfect, yes. But it is always easier to trumpet the failures than the successes. As far as his OVERALL track record, credit is long overdue.

JRIG

05-06-2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by jabrch
Sabotage? *****

OK, which do you think is more accurate? Do you think he contributed more to our 86 wins, or prevented us from winning 90-92?

JRIG

05-06-2004, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
For all the Billy Beane hype, what has HE won??

More than 90 games each of the past 4 seasons.

392 wins over the past 4 years.

Three divison championships in arguably the toughest division in baseball over the past few years.

One Wild Card berth.

When KW even accomplishes one of those, let me know.

fquaye149

05-06-2004, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
OK, which do you think is more accurate? Do you think he contributed more to our 86 wins, or prevented us from winning 90-92?

even if he hurt our season immensely, which is certainly a very plausible statement.. . when you say he "sabotaged" our season, you imply that he tried to make us lose, or at the very least, like gary sheffield did in Milwaukee, he played below his capabilities on purpose.

i think it would be hard as hell to make that statement. koch has been nothing but positive attitude-wise, no matter how bad his pitching has been (and it's been bad) he's always wanted to win.

JRIG

05-06-2004, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by fquaye149
even if he hurt our season immensely, which is certainly a very plausible statement.. . when you say he "sabotaged" our season, you imply that he tried to make us lose, or at the very least, like gary sheffield did in Milwaukee, he played below his capabilities on purpose.

i think it would be hard as hell to make that statement. koch has been nothing but positive attitude-wise, no matter how bad his pitching has been (and it's been bad) he's always wanted to win.

My intention was to imply that his aquisition and subsequent play torpedoed our chances of winning the division.

For all of the crap we give him, I do not doubt he is trying, he wants to win, and does care about his performance.

jabrch

05-06-2004, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
OK, which do you think is more accurate? Do you think he contributed more to our 86 wins, or prevented us from winning 90-92?

that's a different story than "sabatoge"

Koch isn't a good closer. But Foulke was GONE. He was done in Chicago. The manager wouldn't play him. KW did all he could do.

If you want to evaluate Williams, you have to be fair and evaluate him based on all the deals he made, not just the 2 or 3 bad ones. All in all, he has done a heck of a job on limited resources.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 02:35 PM

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2001_trans.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2002_trans.shtml

Traded Scott Eyre to the Toronto Blue Jays. Received Gary Glover.
A wash, but Eyre is looking good as a relief pitcher. Still a wash

Traded Chad Bradford to the Oakland Athletics. Received a player to be named later. The Oakland Athletics sent Miguel Olivo (December 13, 2000) to the Chicago White Sox to complete the trade.
It is up to Olivo to determine if this is a good or bad trade for the Sox. I am not sold on Miguel yet.

Traded Jeff Abbott to the Florida Marlins. Received Julio Ramirez.
Wash of the bad.

Traded Aaron Myette and Brian Schmack (minors) to the Texas Rangers. Received Royce Clayton.
Wash of the bad, but the addition of Ramirez and Clayton to the team, greatly hurt in 2001. Could he have done more as neither of these trades helped the Sox at all?

Signed Sandy Alomar Jr. as a free agent.
Wasn't worth all the hoopala he brought.

Signed Harold Baines as a free agent.
Look everyone love Harold but he was washed up by now. He took up roster spot someone else could have had.

Traded Kevin Beirne, Brian Simmons, Mike Sirotka, and Mike Williams (minors) to the Toronto Blue Jays. Received Matt DeWitt and David Wells.
Wash but did this hurt his rep. Arm gate could have factor into later trades.

Traded Andre Simpson (minors), Gary Majewski (minors), and Orlando Rodriguez (minors) to the Los Angeles Dodgers. Received Antonio Osuna and Carlos Ortega (minors).
Didn't give up much but Osuna wasn't that good and Kenny agreeing to contract extension was a bad move.

Traded Matt DeWitt to the Toronto Blue Jays. Received Mike Williams (minors).
DeWitt got hurt so hard to tell. But as it stands now, a wash

Signed Jose Canseco as a free agent.
Good move helped the team out in the short term.

Traded Derek Hasselhoff (minors) to the San Francisco Giants. Received Alan Embree and cash.
Alan sucked with the White Sox, thus this trade hurt the Sox.

Traded James Baldwin and cash to the Los Angeles Dodgers. Received Jeff Barry, Onan Masaoka, and Gary Majewski (minors).
This trade made him a laughing stock, I wonder if Berry would have been better.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Hondo
ok....WHY? because you said so?

How can one objectively put Kenny in the top five. He has done nothing to distinguish himself to earn that amount of respect. When you get a team to the playoffs in a weak ass division, then maybe we can talk about top five. Till then you are drinking too much Sox kool aid to think he is that good.

hold2dibber

05-06-2004, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
OK, which do you think is more accurate? Do you think he contributed more to our 86 wins, or prevented us from winning 90-92?

Come on. So you (and others) deride KW for Koch's failure, saying "if not for that trade, we would have won 90 or 92 games last year!" But if KW hadn't acquired Colon for peanuts, made the great decision to sign Gordon, picked Loaiza out of the scrap heap, picked up Everett for a song, etc., the Sox wouldn't have 80 games last year. You can't say KW cost us the division last year by trading for Koch - because it was all the other deals that KW made that put us in position to win, regardless of Koch.

Iwritecode

05-06-2004, 02:41 PM

I have a question for all those that are *still* bashing KW for the Foulke/Koch trade:

What should KW have done instead?

IIRC, the Sox had NOBODY on the team capable of filling Foulke's shoes in the closer role.

Nobody had any idea that Marte or Gordon would be as good as they were.

Koch was just coming off a year where he won the Rolaids Relief Pitcher of the Year.

Even looking at the numbers you could make a case that Koch wasn't quite as good as Foulke but who really expected him to be as bad as he was?

Who else could KW have realistically gotten either by trading Foulke or via FA and letting him walk???

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 02:43 PM

Traded Herb Perry to the Texas Rangers. Received a player to be named later. The Texas Rangers sent Corey Lee (December 17, 2001) to the Chicago White Sox to complete the trade.
Perry would had help the Sox a lot more then Clayton did in 2002.

Traded Kip Wells, Sean Lowe, and Josh Fogg to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Received Todd Ritchie and Lee Evans (minors).
One of his worst deals ever. Relying on Ritchie to be a top pitcher shows several flaws in Kenny's thinking.

Traded Chris Singleton to the Baltimore Orioles. Received Willie Harris.
This will be a wash or a good deal depending on what Harris does.

Traded Alex Fernandez (minors) and Humberto Quintero (minors) to the San Diego Padres. Received D'Angelo Jimenez.
Good Deal

Traded Ray Durham and cash to the Oakland Athletics. Received Jon Adkins (minors).
Bad Deal to a wash, draft picks could have been worth more then Adkins is. Dumping salary makes it a wash though.

Traded Kenny Lofton to the San Francisco Giants. Received Felix Diaz (minors) and Ryan Meaux (minors).
Dumping salary so a wash.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Iwritecode
I have a question for all those that are *still* bashing KW for the Foulke/Koch trade:

What should KW have done instead?

IIRC, the Sox had NOBODY on the team capable of filling Foulke's shoes in the closer role.

Nobody had any idea that Marte or Gordon would be as good as they were.

Koch was just coming off a year where he won the Rolaids Relief Pitcher of the Year.

Even looking at the numbers you could make a case that Koch wasn't quite as good as Foulke but who really expected him to be as bad as he was?

Who else could KW have realistically gotten either by trading Foulke or via FA and letting him walk???

Kept Foulke and try to work out a deal. If he leaves, use the draft picks. The Sox just spent first round pick on college closer, so they must have thought highly of that guy. Then again they traded him to Oakland in this deal. Kenny got fooled by the fools gold the Rolaids Relief award is. There never was a time when Koch was the best reliever.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by hold2dibber
Come on. So you (and others) deride KW for Koch's failure, saying "if not for that trade, we would have won 90 or 92 games last year!" But if KW hadn't acquired Colon for peanuts, made the great decision to sign Gordon, picked Loaiza out of the scrap heap, picked up Everett for a song, etc., the Sox wouldn't have 80 games last year. You can't say KW cost us the division last year by trading for Koch - because it was all the other deals that KW made that put us in position to win, regardless of Koch.

Colon was a good deal which the Yankees facilitated to prevent Colon from going to Boston.

Loaiza was a good pickup.

Everett was Texas trying to open up space for Teixeira. But he wasn't a CF. His D out there did hurt.

Alomar was a waste of roster space and hurt the Sox.

Now I am not, not giving credit to Kenny for being in the right place at the right time. That is part of the job.

JRIG

05-06-2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Iwritecode
I have a question for all those that are *still* bashing KW for the Foulke/Koch trade:

What should KW have done instead?

IIRC, the Sox had NOBODY on the team capable of filling Foulke's shoes in the closer role.

Nobody had any idea that Marte or Gordon would be as good as they were.

Koch was just coming off a year where he won the Rolaids Relief Pitcher of the Year.

Even looking at the numbers you could make a case that Koch wasn't quite as good as Foulke but who really expected him to be as bad as he was?

Who else could KW have realistically gotten either by trading Foulke or via FA and letting him walk???

Keith Foulke had one more year on his contract. I would have kept him and pulled Manuel into my office and demand that he insert Foulke into the closer's spot. Management from the top down. After that, re-sign him or let him walk and take the draft pick.

Iwritecode

05-06-2004, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
Keith Foulke had one more year on his contract. I would have kept him and pulled Manuel into my office and demand that he insert Foulke into the closer's spot. Management from the top down. After that, re-sign him or let him walk and take the draft pick.

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Kept Foulke and try to work out a deal. If he leaves, use the draft picks.

I thought that it was pretty much a given that they weren't going to bring Foulke back due to "financial constraits" (something you need to blame JR for not KW).

Given that, how comfortable would any of us have felt had KW let Foulke walk and taken the draft picks, thus leaving the team with no closer? Would we have really been better off?

JRIG

05-06-2004, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Iwritecode
I thought that it was pretty much a given that they weren't going to bring Foulke back due to "financial constraits" (something you need to blame JR for not KW).

Given that, how comfortable would any of us have felt had KW let Foulke walk and taken the draft picks, thus leaving the team with no closer? Would we have really been better off?

Well, that would mean we'd need a closer for this season. Gordon couuld have been brought back, Looper was avavilable, Urbina and Benitez too. It would not have bothered me even if we would have signed any of those guys. Marte is certainly capable of doing the job. Less money could have been spent to shore up middle relief. And with the dollars left over, maybe bring in an actual 2B or CF. So, at the very least, there would have been much better flexibility.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Iwritecode
I thought that it was pretty much a given that they weren't going to bring Foulke back due to "financial constraits" (something you need to blame JR for not KW).

Given that, how comfortable would any of us have felt had KW let Foulke walk and taken the draft picks, thus leaving the team with no closer? Would we have really been better off?

Salaries
Foulke
2003 Oakland Athletics $6,000,000

Koch
2003 Chicago White Sox $4,250,000

Koch saved the Sox 1.75 million. Was the difference in production worth it?

beckett21

05-06-2004, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
More than 90 games each of the past 4 seasons.

392 wins over the past 4 years.

Three divison championships in arguably the toughest division in baseball over the past few years.

One Wild Card berth.

When KW even accomplishes one of those, let me know.

And for all this greatness, he has won exactly how many postseason series?

Koch saved the Sox 1.75 million. Was the difference in production worth it?

Im glad you Posted that. DONT let the SOX BullJive you
into thinking they "Traded" Foulke to the A's for Koch because Koch was a "True Closer". KW thought he was hoodwinking Billy Beane and SAVING 1.75 Million, not to mention Arbitration $$$$. Look what it got us. A "closer" who Helped COST us the Division Last Year, and will eventually cost us the division this year.

This Organization has NOT LEARNED that they need to stop looking at the Bottom Line, They get BURNED time and time again.

Look at our stadium. They went with Pre-Cast Concrete, Way Cheaper instead of much more expensive Brick.
Look where It Got Us ? A park that had to be Re-habbed extensively with Private Money

Hondo

05-06-2004, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
And for all this greatness, he has won exactly how many postseason series?

He can only do so much. I'll say it again.
He put together a team last year that had no excuse for losing the AL Central. If nothing else he had them in position to win.

This year's team over a short sampling of the season has been one of the best in baseball.

Oh but wait that's ALL because of Ozzie and the players....THIS YEAR....UNTIL THEY LOSE...then it's back on KW

rahulsekhar

05-06-2004, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77

Traded Kip Wells, Sean Lowe, and Josh Fogg to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Received Todd Ritchie and Lee Evans (minors).
One of his worst deals ever. Relying on Ritchie to be a top pitcher shows several flaws in Kenny's thinking.

Traded Ray Durham and cash to the Oakland Athletics. Received Jon Adkins (minors).
Bad Deal to a wash, draft picks could have been worth more then Adkins is. Dumping salary makes it a wash though.

Traded Kenny Lofton to the San Francisco Giants. Received Felix Diaz (minors) and Ryan Meaux (minors).
Dumping salary so a wash.

Ritchie was by no means a great pitcher, but he was decent. No reason to expect him to falloff the planet like he did. Now That said, it was still a bad deal (although IMO Fogg and Lowe were basically worthless).

The complication in the Durham-Adkins deal was that it seemed highly likely at the time that FA draft pick compensation was being eliminated. So at the time, it was a potential draft pick or Adkins, which IMO makes that at worst a wash and at best a good move.

As for Lofton, Salary dump or no, we did receive Diaz in the deal, who if I'm not mistaken is being highly touted by many here as a potential 5th starter after dominating in the minors. In fact, given that KW was dumping salary, this has to be a VERY good move to not only dump but also get a good prospect.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by jabrch
You have proven you have wonderful hindsight. Congrats.

When we traded him, you don't seem to recall that he had been benched, and wouldn't have been closing for us.

First off I am not a huge fan of closers but of stoppers.

Secondly, I was against this trade from that day on.

Thirdly, GM are evaluated with hindsight.

Fourth, then the problem was Foulke but Jerry or Kenny. Depends who benched him.

Hangar18

05-06-2004, 03:41 PM

The SOX decided they were going to "CUT-BACK" on Payroll,
Alienating a big part of their Season-Ticket Base. WHere did that get them? Numerous partial-season ticket holders REFUSED to pay up then out of Anger (most did take the SOX9 pkg, so instead of 27 gms, now at 9) resulting in an even Less-Filled park that the MEDIA is only Too Quick to point out ........

JRIG

05-06-2004, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
And for all this greatness, he has won exactly how many postseason series?

Take your time, I can wait.

The A's have taken teams to the fifth game of the ALDS for 4 consecutive years. I cannot believe it's Beane's fault that he can build teams good enough to win 100 games in 2 of 4 seasons and win 2 of 4 games in the ALDS each year, but not good enough to win one more. That's luck and Giambi not sliding and Jeter making a great play.

JasonC23

05-06-2004, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
And for all this greatness, he has won exactly how many postseason series?

Take your time, I can wait.

So, you'd rather not make the playoffs at all than make 'em and lose? Fascinating.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
And for all this greatness, he has won exactly how many postseason series?

Take your time, I can wait.

How many postseasons has Kenny made?

I'll wait (hopefully not too much longer)

Hangar18

05-06-2004, 03:44 PM

While the SOX were taking the CHEAPER route of letting their #1 pitcher LEAVE, and compounding the problem by NOT getting another #1 Type Pitcher .........Look where it got us? The SOX finally acknowledging they need another PITCHER, and will NOW have to Probably SPEND MORE by TRADING significant Talent in our system to probably "Rent" a player. Thats smart baseball Uncle Jerry

Hangar18

05-06-2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by JasonC23
So, you'd rather not make the playoffs at all than make 'em and lose? Fascinating.

Think about it. Whats the point of making the Playoffs if your not Armed with Talent to go all the way? The Cubs could get away with that, the Media would hail them as "Heroic" for getting there and going down in flames. The Sox? We'd be ridiculed as being "terrible" or "patsies" for going out in 4.
It would be WORSE for us (because of the Chicago media)
if we went 4 and out. Trust Me.

hold2dibber

05-06-2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Traded Herb Perry to the Texas Rangers. Received a player to be named later. The Texas Rangers sent Corey Lee (December 17, 2001) to the Chicago White Sox to complete the trade.
Perry would had help the Sox a lot more then Clayton did in 2002.

Probably true, but only minimally. Not likely to have mattered much.

Traded Kip Wells, Sean Lowe, and Josh Fogg to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Received Todd Ritchie and Lee Evans (minors).
One of his worst deals ever. Relying on Ritchie to be a top pitcher shows several flaws in Kenny's thinking.

It was a horrible trade; indefensible.

Traded Chris Singleton to the Baltimore Orioles. Received Willie Harris.
This will be a wash or a good deal depending on what Harris does.

Traded Alex Fernandez (minors) and Humberto Quintero (minors) to the San Diego Padres. Received D'Angelo Jimenez.
Good Deal

Agreed.

Traded Ray Durham and cash to the Oakland Athletics. Received Jon Adkins (minors).
Bad Deal to a wash, draft picks could have been worth more then Adkins is. Dumping salary makes it a wash though.

Agreed.

Traded Kenny Lofton to the San Francisco Giants. Received Felix Diaz (minors) and Ryan Meaux (minors).
Dumping salary so a wash.

Good deal. Getting a legit starting pitching prospect for 1/2 season of Kenny Lofton is a steal. No matter what, it's a good trade. If Diaz turns into a realiable MLB pitcher, it's a great trade.

And you're forgetting:

Colon for Osuna/Biddle/Liefer - great trade
Everett for Webster - good trade
Alomar for Ring - bad trade to wash
Hummel for Sullivan - wash
Baldwin for Asian pitcher (can't remember name) and Barry (or was it Berry?) - bad trade
Signing Gordon - good move
Signing White - bad move (but not too bad cuz he was cheap and they cut him loose when it became clear he sucked)
Signing Takatsu - too early to tell, but looking good
Wells for Sirotka - wash
Signing Lofton - good move
Signing Loaiza - GREAT move
Signing Politte - too early to tel, but looking marginally good
Koch for Foulke - bad move

IMHO, overall he's done relatively well. I give him a C+/B-.

Randar68

05-06-2004, 04:18 PM

WOW!

:threadsucks

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by hold2dibber
Probably true, but only minimally. Not likely to have mattered much.

I am looking for a 2003 list, my views on 2001 moves was posted earlier in the thread.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
WOW!

:threadsucks

To make you happy, Kenny Williams is a god in judging baseball talent despite of never creating a team which won the weakest division in baseball. He only was thinking about the good of the team for trying to get rid of the greatest player the team ever saw to sign an average pitcher while paying over inflated salaries to overrated players.

:threadrules:

Randar68

05-06-2004, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
To make you happy, Kenny Williams is a god in judging baseball talent despite of never creating a team which won the weakest division in baseball. He only was thinking about the good of the team for trying to get rid of the greatest player the team ever saw to sign an average pitcher while paying over inflated salaries to overrated players.

Huh??? *****. The thread still sucks.

Kenny ain't a top 5 GM, but he's nowhere near the bottom 5. Somewhere in the top half.

I think you don't have ANY appreciation for the numbers and types of deals GM's make, they all make mistakes in hindsight, and the fact that KW has had to operate under a strict budget.

I don't know that you'd give Jesus props if he rose from the dead, so yes...

:threadsucks

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
Huh??? *****. The thread still sucks.

Kenny ain't a top 5 GM, but he's nowhere near the bottom 5. Somewhere in the top half.

I think you don't have ANY appreciation for the numbers and types of deals GM's make, they all make mistakes in hindsight, and the fact that KW has had to operate under a strict budget.

I don't know that you'd give Jesus props if he rose from the dead, so yes...

:threadsucks

Hey if Jesus traded for Clayton and Ritchie, I would want Buddha.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
Huh??? *****. The thread still sucks.

Kenny ain't a top 5 GM, but he's nowhere near the bottom 5. Somewhere in the top half.

I think you don't have ANY appreciation for the numbers and types of deals GM's make, they all make mistakes in hindsight, and the fact that KW has had to operate under a strict budget.

It seems Kenny makes good lower profile deals, but when he tries to add someone for the here and now, they fail. Ritchie, Clayton, Wells, Colon, Ervert, R Alomar in a four years period. Only two of those worked out. Secondly, it is no secret he wanted/s Thomas out of town. So he would rather overpay Konerko then keep Thomas who is a bargin for his production. Not a good sign for Kenny. I don't Kenny is bottom five, he rose out of that last year, but he is in the bottom half.

Randar68

05-06-2004, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Hey if Jesus traded for Clayton and Ritchie, I would want Buddha.

Yep, that's the body of his work. Glad he only made 2 or 3 moves. I must have dreamed Marte, Uribe, Harris, Olivo, Cotts, Politte, Takatsu, and Loaiza. What team have I been watching????

Man, need I even mention that uber-creative Colon-deal, or getting Alomar and Everett without taking on salary, a JR-based restriction?

Sheeeesh. EVERY GM makes bad moves. The only ones that don't are the ones that make NONE.

KW has steadily shown improvement IMO. If he can keep from handing out bad-contracts as he goes along, he'll emerge as one of the better GM's in the game. He ain't there yet, though, I agree.

Randar68

05-06-2004, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Ritchie, Clayton, Wells, Colon, Ervert, R Alomar in a four years period. Only two of those worked out.

Huh? Colon, Everett, and Alomar all "worked-out" as far as I can tell. The Sox needed a 2-bagger, and got one whose defense was stellar, he was a decent table-setter and lead the team in sacrifices in HALF a season. Everett was an All-Star and they got him for LOW level prospects...

You've got some seriously biased glasses on there.

I won't touch Wells, but we got more out of him than Toronto got out of Sirotka. I also have my doubts that it ended up hurting him in any later negotiations... At the Time, Wells was coming off a 20-win season, it's silly to call it a bad deal.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
Yep, that's the body of his work. Glad he only made 2 or 3 moves. I must have dreamed Marte, Uribe, Harris, Olivo, Cotts, Politte, Takatsu, and Loaiza. What team have I been watching????

Man, need I even mention that uber-creative Colon-deal, or getting Alomar and Everett without taking on salary, a JR-based restriction?

Sheeeesh. EVERY GM makes bad moves. The only ones that don't are the ones that make NONE.

KW has steadily shown improvement IMO. If he can keep from handing out bad-contracts as he goes along, he'll emerge as one of the better GM's in the game. He ain't there yet, though, I agree.

Cotts, Olivo, Uribe, Harris have yet to prove their worth, so lets not herald them yet.

Finding Loaiza was good move, low risk but a high reward.

Takatsu is getting by but how much of it is because no one has seen him. The question is will he get hit as the word about him gets out. Otsuka was a better and cheaper option.

The Expo GM is one the worse ones, but how much was Cashman involved in that deal. I don't know who put it together, but Cashman's rep is he always works the phones looking for deals.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
Huh? Colon, Everett, and Alomar all "worked-out" as far as I can tell. The Sox needed a 2-bagger, and got one whose defense was stellar, he was a decent table-setter and lead the team in sacrifices in HALF a season. Everett was an All-Star and they got him for LOW level prospects...

You've got some seriously biased glasses on there.

I won't touch Wells, but we got more out of him than Toronto got out of Sirotka. I also have my doubts that it ended up hurting him in any later negotiations... At the Time, Wells was coming off a 20-win season, it's silly to call it a bad deal.

Robbie didn't work, him at the top of the lineup killed the Sox down the stretch. I don't care how good his D was, it wasn't worth it. He wasn't a decent table setter, more like a bus boy.

nasox

05-06-2004, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Hangar18
While the SOX were taking the CHEAPER route of letting their #1 pitcher LEAVE, and compounding the problem by NOT getting another #1 Type Pitcher .........Look where it got us?

Well, Colon was offered and overpaid by a lot by the Angels. They have an owner that is signing high priced (overpriced?) players by the bushel. Plus, a four year deal for Colon would not be a good idea since his velocity has gone down and his ERA gone up for a few years now. I don't think JR was being cheap on this one, he just didn't see Colon worth the money that Anaheim gave him. And I think it was the right decision, Colon is pitching terrible (is he on the IR?). As far as getting another 1 pitcher, make what you want of that, it wasn't going to happen.

Randar68

05-06-2004, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Robbie didn't work, him at the top of the lineup killed the Sox down the stretch. I don't care how good his D was, it wasn't worth it. He wasn't a decent table setter, more like a bus boy.

Well, the Sox had no other options and nothing else was available in the market-place. Some people make lemonade out of lemons and some people still bitch about the lemonade being too sour.

Get over it.

Randar68

05-06-2004, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Cotts, Olivo, Uribe, Harris have yet to prove their worth, so lets not herald them yet.

You're awfully quick to judge every other move he's made, but all the moves that look good "need more time to evaluate."

GMAB.

Randar68

05-06-2004, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Finding Loaiza was good move, low risk but a high reward.

Tom Gordon, Marte, Mike Jackson, Cliff Politte... the list goes on.

You certainly have left Sullivan out of the discussions...

How Conveeeeeeeenient.

maurice

05-06-2004, 05:55 PM

KW (and/or his scouts) have done a damn good job projecting younger players and low-cost vets who have yet to reach their potential. That bodes well in the years to come, particularly given the Sox stockpile of high picks in the next draft.

His percentage is lower with respect to established, major-league players, but he may already have improved with experience. It seems like he's improved in the areas of player, fan, and media relations, as well.

His last remaining weakness is the contract thing. We'll get a good chance to see whether he's developed in that area this offseason.

jabrch

05-06-2004, 05:57 PM

Don't forget Schoenweis also.

Dawg, did KW sleep with your sister?

hold2dibber

05-06-2004, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by maurice
KW (and/or his scouts) have done a damn good job projecting younger players and low-cost vets who have yet to reach their potential. That bodes well in the years to come, particularly given the Sox stockpile of high picks in the next draft.

His percentage is lower with respect to established, major-league players, but he may already have improved with experience. It seems like he's improved in the areas of player, fan, and media relations, as well.

His last remaining weakness is the contract thing. We'll get a good chance to see whether he's developed in that area this offseason.

It took 113 posts, but somebody finally hit the nail on the head and summed it all up perfectly.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by jabrch
Don't forget Schoenweis also.

Dawg, did KW sleep with your sister?

No, I just think he is a terrible but improving GM.

iwannago

05-06-2004, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by hold2dibber
It took 113 posts, but somebody finally hit the nail on the head and summed it all up perfectly.

I guess we know have a post of your liking.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
You're awfully quick to judge every other move he's made, but all the moves that look good "need more time to evaluate."

GMAB.

I judged the trades where the Sox can't get hurt more, besides Koch, anymore. If the players the Sox gave up do anything it only makes the deal worse.

We are really going to hang Kenny Hat on Sullivan who was here for a few weeks and 14.3 innings pitched in 15 games?

beckett21

05-06-2004, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Hangar18
Think about it. Whats the point of making the Playoffs if your not Armed with Talent to go all the way? The Cubs could get away with that, the Media would hail them as "Heroic" for getting there and going down in flames. The Sox? We'd be ridiculed as being "terrible" or "patsies" for going out in 4.
It would be WORSE for us (because of the Chicago media)
if we went 4 and out. Trust Me.

Thank you Hangar for the assist.

Last I remember, we were playing to win the World Series. Not a division or a wild card. Those things are nice, and of course would be a heck of a lot of fun.

What is the point of going though if you cannot compete? For all the accolades the *ALMIGHTY* Billy Beane gets, he has as many MEANINGFUL victories as KW. Honestly, that may change this year.

But...it don't mean a thing if you don't get that ring.

beckett21

05-06-2004, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
The A's have taken teams to the fifth game of the ALDS for 4 consecutive years. I cannot believe it's Beane's fault that he can build teams good enough to win 100 games in 2 of 4 seasons and win 2 of 4 games in the ALDS each year, but not good enough to win one more. That's luck and Giambi not sliding and Jeter making a great play.

Ahhh, the good 'ol *LUCK* argument rears it's ugly head...

beckett21

05-06-2004, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by JasonC23
So, you'd rather not make the playoffs at all than make 'em and lose? Fascinating.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

So Beane's team made the playoffs 4 times. Impressive, and I'm not being sarcastic either.

Their window is closing, quickly. The A's still have NOTHING to show for their efforts. Three dominant starters, and they couldn't even win ONE postseason series. If the guy was such a genius, maybe JUST MAYBE with all that talent he finds he could have found a way to get past the first round of the playoffs at LEAST once.

And I do NOT buy the luck argument. It's nice, but you have to make your own luck. Leave things to chance and you will lose more often than not.

Let's see what the Sox do this year. This team has made a believer out of me so far.

gosox41

05-06-2004, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
Let's remember that Neal Cotts is here thanks to that trade as well, as he was one of the players to be named later.

As bad as Koch is, let's all remember that the jury is still out on the deal. IF Cotts turns out to be a contributor, then guess what...it wasn't that bad after all.

Personally I have to say that my opinion of KW has changed. I think it's time that he gets a fair shake.

Anyone who sings the praises of Cotts needs to acknowledge why he is here in the first place, irregardless of Botch.

I may be mistaken, but I thought KW was trying to win last year. If that's the case, don't trade proven talent that you no can help you win now for the future.

Bob

beckett21

05-06-2004, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by gosox41
I may be mistaken, but I thought KW was trying to win last year. If that's the case, don't trade proven talent that you no can help you win now for the future.

Bob

He was. That's why he got Colon, Alomar, Everett, and Sullivan.

Foulke LOST HIS JOB. Good as he is/was, it just was NOT going to happen in a White Sox uniform anymore.

What part of this are people not understanding????

gosox41

05-06-2004, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
Since this thread is about KW's ego, how about the ego of some of the KW bashers here?

I can admit when I am wrong. From what I have read from many of the pro-KW posters on WSI, all of whom have baseball knowledge far superior to mine, my stance on KW has done a 180. For all the Billy Beane hype, what has HE won?? Not even a division series. Another product of media hype, a media darling.

KW has shown he is not afraid to make moves in order to try to improve the team despite financial handcuffs. To go along with a saying I firmly believe, in order to succeed one cannot be afraid to fail. KW has proved that to me.

Like I said, I can admit when I am wrong. You can put me on the pro-side of the KW ledger now. Far from perfect, yes. But it is always easier to trumpet the failures than the successes. As far as his OVERALL track record, credit is long overdue.

I said he's improving as a GM, but he's far from good. I like most of the deals he made last season except for the obvious one.

But I have serious doubts about KW. Didn't he want to get involved in the Red Sox/Rangers A-Rod fiasco and in the process trade Magglio? He did make some smart acquisitions. But the jury is still out on Olivo even though he has great potential. Marte is the best reliever the Sox have, but as some like to point out about Bradford, he's just a middle reliever. Uribe has been with the team 27 games. Let's see where he winds up.

Bob

gosox41

05-06-2004, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
Thank you Hangar for the assist.

Last I remember, we were playing to win the World Series. Not a division or a wild card. Those things are nice, and of course would be a heck of a lot of fun.

What is the point of going though if you cannot compete? For all the accolades the *ALMIGHTY* Billy Beane gets, he has as many MEANINGFUL victories as KW. Honestly, that may change this year.

But...it don't mean a thing if you don't get that ring.

I agree with your last statement, for the most part. Of course teh Sox have yet to be in the playoffs to get a shot at the ring under KW.

I also think there's something to be said about the quality of a team if they can go out and win 95-100 games 4 years in a row. I hardly call that a bad baseball team.

Bob

Daver

05-06-2004, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by gosox41
I agree with your last statement, for the most part. Of course teh Sox have yet to be in the playoffs to get a shot at the ring under KW.

I also think there's something to be said about the quality of a team if they can go out and win 95-100 games 4 years in a row. I hardly call that a bad baseball team.

Bob

KW was the GM in 2000.

gosox41

05-06-2004, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Iwritecode
I thought that it was pretty much a given that they weren't going to bring Foulke back due to "financial constraits" (something you need to blame JR for not KW).

Given that, how comfortable would any of us have felt had KW let Foulke walk and taken the draft picks, thus leaving the team with no closer? Would we have really been better off?

And I know Foulke signed a long term contract. I believe he signed for 4 years and $24 mill. Unless my math is wrong, his average yearly salary is still less then Koch's 2004 salary.

Bob

beckett21

05-06-2004, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Daver
KW was the GM in 2000.

Well you see, Daver, then that really was Schu's team... :)

beckett21

05-06-2004, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by gosox41

I also think there's something to be said about the quality of a team if they can go out and win 95-100 games 4 years in a row. I hardly call that a bad baseball team.

Bob

Bob,

I couldn't agree more. By no stretch of the imagination are the Athletics a *bad* baseball team, that is a rather impressive stretch. I don't think I ever said in so many words that they were a bad team.

As is the case with most sports, these things seem to go in cycles. Beane's philosophies are currently the *hot* item, kind of like the West Coast Offense in football. I am by no means trying to make Billy Beane out to be an idiot. He is not.

But what has he won of any significance? He is still a man, capable of error. Yet some people seem to think that he is infallible, and focus solely on his triumphs. And the media loves to flower praise on the genius with a shoestring budget and an ego larger than life itself. Want to know how good Beane is? Just ask him, and I'll be willing to bet he'd be happy to tell you.

With KW, one of our own, all that seems to be trumpeted are his failures and shortcomings. He deserves more credit than that. If he were truly the idiot some make him out to be, this team would be floundering in last place.

Last I checked, the White Sox were in first place. And guess what...the minor league system is healthy and talent-laden.

I used to be on the other side of this argument. But looking at all his moves with an even hand, I have to admit he has done a better job than I have ever given him credit for. But when all you hear about is Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch, it's hard to look beyond that.

The guy is doing a damn good job. Reaping the benefits is on the horizon.

Randar68

05-06-2004, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
But when all you hear about is Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch, it's hard to look beyond that.

DING DING DING.

Truth by repetition.

JRIG

05-06-2004, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Daver
KW was the GM in 2000.

I'm not sure if you're serious, but Ron Schueler was the GM in 2000.

Dadawg_77

05-06-2004, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by beckett21

The guy is doing a damn good job. Reaping the benefits is on the horizon.

You should stop drinking :).

Our minor league system was ranked 20th by BA.

KW sucked really bad, now he just sucks.

beckett21

05-06-2004, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
You should stop drinking :).

Our minor league system was ranked 20th by BA.

KW sucked really bad, now he just sucks.

LOL! :)

That actually cracked me up :D:

I've been posting a little *too* much today, need to go take a reality break.

But I still have to side with the pro-Kenny camp on this one. The pros outweigh the cons in my humble opinion.

Thanks for the laugh though! :gulp:

batmanZoSo

05-06-2004, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
I'm not sure if you're serious, but Ron Schueler was the GM in 2000.

He definitely was.

That's why we got the much needed Charles Johnson. After all, everyone was saying we were just a power hitting catcher away.

SoxOnTop

05-06-2004, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by JRIG
I'm not sure if you're serious, but Ron Schueler was the GM in 2000.

Schu was the GM throughout the 2000 season. KW didn't take over until the the off season.

Randar68

05-06-2004, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He definitely was.

That's why we got the much needed Charles Johnson. After all, everyone was saying we were just a power hitting catcher away.

charles johnson was our best hitter by far in that Seattle series.

MarkEdward

05-07-2004, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by beckett21
Yet some people seem to think that he is infallible, and focus solely on his triumphs.

I'm sorry for singling you out, but this was said a lot in the previous thread, and I just want to make mention of it here...

This is a complete and utter strawman. As far as I know, nobody on WSI has called Beane a god, deity, or any other type of infallible symbol. Jabrich constantly alluded to this in the Bradford/Olivo thread. Unless you or Jabrich can actually find quotes where Beane was characterized as an infallible creature, it's a strawman argument. Nobody thinks he's a god, people criticize his moves, but when you win 90+ games for four seasons in a row, you will receive some praise for your efforts. John Schuerholz also receives this kind of praise, as does Brian Sabean, Brian Cashman, Pat Gillick, Terry Ryan, Gerry Hunsicker, and Walt Jocketty. If you constantly build competitive teams, you'll get credit, no matter what your philosophy may be.

As for your comment to the fact that the media loves, I'd disagree. Check out ESPN.com. Joe Morgan, Buster Onley, and Phil Rogers are outspoken critics of sabermetrics. Heck, two days ago, Harold Reynolds and John Kruk tried to denounce the usefulness of OBP on Baseball Tonight. Even on Baseball Primer, which is a very pro-sabermetric web site, Beane is constantly criticized for his various moves.

beckett21

05-07-2004, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by MarkEdward
I'm sorry for singling you out, but this was said a lot in the previous thread, and I just want to make mention of it here...

This is a complete and utter strawman. As far as I know, nobody on WSI has called Beane a god, deity, or any other type of infallible symbol. Jabrich constantly alluded to this in the Bradford/Olivo thread. Unless you or Jabrich can actually find quotes where Beane was characterized as an infallible creature, it's a strawman argument. Nobody thinks he's a god, people criticize his moves, but when you win 90+ games for four seasons in a row, you will receive some praise for your efforts. John Schuerholz also receives this kind of praise, as does Brian Sabean, Brian Cashman, Pat Gillick, Terry Ryan, Gerry Hunsicker, and Walt Jocketty. If you constantly build competitive teams, you'll get credit, no matter what your philosophy may be.

As for your comment to the fact that the media loves, I'd disagree. Check out ESPN.com. Joe Morgan, Buster Onley, and Phil Rogers are outspoken critics of sabermetrics. Heck, two days ago, Harold Reynolds and John Kruk tried to denounce the usefulness of OBP on Baseball Tonight. Even on Baseball Primer, which is a very pro-sabermetric web site, Beane is constantly criticized for his various moves.

My point being that Billy Beane has become the measuring stick by which all other GM's seem to be measured against nowadays. The guy has become the poster boy for the *new breed* of GM. God bless him and his disciples Ricciardi, DePodesta, etc, etc.

I was not implying anyone here specifically was deifying him. I was not calling anyone out nor did I have anyone specifically in mind.

Yes he deserves praise.

He still has won nothing of any consequence.

The Mariners won 116 games a few years ago. Lot of good that did them.

What my contention has been from day 1 since I have been posting here is that winning the division IS NOT ENOUGH. I'll take it in a heartbeat, of course. But in the end it is not the ultimate goal. League championships, World Series championships....that is the goal. Billy Beane just always seems to come up in the conversation, and he has won exactly none of these things.

People love to say, "We'll win the division, the playoffs are a crapshoot and anything can happen." No they are not. The best team will generally win. Who's to say the Angels and the Marlins WERE NOT the best team in their respective years? They just "got lucky"? When are the Sox gonna get lucky like that??? That's a helluva lot of luck in my book.

That is my biggest issue. Winning divisions and wild cards are GREAT. But they are not the end-all be-all. No, Kenny Williams hasn't won jack yet. Can't argue with that because it is fact. But there are MANY MANY GM's that haven't won either. So that means they all suck?

KW has shown a propensity to make moves and take chances. Some better than others. But he is not afraid to take a chance and make a mistake. I have no problem with that philosophy. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

BTW, no problem in singling me out. I don't take these matters personally. However you need to illustrate your point is fine by me. No apology needed.

batmanZoSo

05-07-2004, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by Randar68
charles johnson was our best hitter by far in that Seattle series.

That's totally not my point. We needed an ace starter and got him.

SoxxoS

05-07-2004, 02:23 AM

I think the Angels got pretty lucky. John Lackey...F-Rod...Rally monkey...Urstad...it just all added up for them. They had unbelieveable mental toughness.

The Marlins were mentally in every game...and they were so stacked nobody paid attention. Lowell, Pudge, Lee, Cabrera, Castillo, Pierre...solid role players in Conine and Gonzalez...then a starting staff with a huge talent on a hot streak...and there you go.

So, although that statement of "once you make the playoffs, anything can happen" is kind of a fallacy...it's kind of true to.

MarkEdward

05-07-2004, 03:55 AM

Beckett,

Fair enough. I suppose folks will constantly want to compare Williams to someone like Beane is because they want to compare our GM to a top-notch standard; really, what's the point of comparing Williams to somebody like Chuck Lamar or Dave Littlefield?

And I'd disagree that Beane has not won anything of consequence... but that's been debated heavily and I'm willing to agree to disagree. FWIW, though, I find what the 2001 Mariners' team did to be an extraordinary accomplishment.

EDIT: for clarity.

hold2dibber

05-07-2004, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Randar68
charles johnson was our best hitter by far in that Seattle series.

Talk about the tallest midget! :D:

JasonC23

05-07-2004, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
What my contention has been from day 1 since I have been posting here is that winning the division IS NOT ENOUGH. I'll take it in a heartbeat, of course. But in the end it is not the ultimate goal. League championships, World Series championships....that is the goal.

That is my biggest issue. Winning divisions and wild cards are GREAT. But they are not the end-all be-all. No, Kenny Williams hasn't won jack yet. Can't argue with that because it is fact. But there are MANY MANY GM's that haven't won either. So that means they all suck?

Apparently, yes, it does, since everybody wants to rip Billy Beane a new one for "just" making the playoffs 4 years in a row.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I get tired of these circular arguments. KW is called a "damn good GM," "a top 5 GM," and "a top half GM" for finishing second a couple of times and third once. Meanwhile, there are people constantly assaulting Billy Beans, who's "only" managed to make the playoffs 4 years in a row under an even tighter budget than KW.

I understand people get tired of the seemingly constant praise of Beane even though he "hasn't won anything," but, come on, if Beane "hasn't won anything," then what the hell has KW done for the Sox??? The simple fact is, this is KW's fourth year as Sox GM. His teams have won 83, 81, and 86 games, and he has never had a team even make the playoffs, despite playing in a crap division. Yes, he's gotten better at his job (which is almost by default because he started off so horribly). Yes, he's made some inspired, awesome moves (even some that I thought were dumb at the time and I've had to eat crow for). But until it's October and the Sox are not on the golf course but in a game 1, I don't see how anyone can think KW's anything but a mediocre, at best, GM.

Randar68

05-07-2004, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by JasonC23
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I get tired of these circular arguments. KW is called a "damn good GM," "a top 5 GM," and "a top half GM" for finishing second a couple of times and third once. Meanwhile, there are people constantly assaulting Billy Beans, who's "only" managed to make the playoffs 4 years in a row under an even tighter budget than KW.

"Assaulting" is VERY different from "Trying to point out that he also makes mistakes and is not perfect" to the few around here that hold him up as a shining example of all that is good and true in the calculator-world.

Methinks you are unable to separate the 2.

maurice

05-07-2004, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by hold2dibber
It took 113 posts, but somebody finally hit the nail on the head and summed it all up perfectly.

Thanks, Dib.

BTW, I don't give a crap about what BA says about our farm system. It looks pretty damn solid to me. As with everything, time will tell.

JasonC23

05-07-2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Randar68
"Assaulting" is VERY different from "Trying to point out that he also makes mistakes and is not perfect" to the few around here that hold him up as a shining example of all that is good and true in the calculator-world.

Methinks you are unable to separate the 2.

I can separate the two just fine. Beane is not perfect by any means (hi, Hatteberg and Dye contracts!). But those who refuse to give Beane any credit (or begrudgingly give him a little credit, but no more) because the Big 3 are supposedly all luck and he's never won a playoff series are doing just as big of a disservice as those who refuse to accept that he's ever done anything wrong. There's a middle ground.

But, having said that, Beane's good moves FAR outweigh his bad moves, which is evident because his teams keep making the playoffs. I don't think you can say the same thing about KW's bad vs good moves until he has at least one team play games in October. Until the Sox win their crap division one time under KW, there is no way he is as good as some here make him out to be.

jabrch

05-07-2004, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by JasonC23
I can separate the two just fine. Beane is not perfect by any means (hi, Hatteberg and Dye contracts!). But those who refuse to give Beane any credit (or begrudgingly give him a little credit, but no more) because the Big 3 are supposedly all luck and he's never won a playoff series are doing just as big of a disservice as those who refuse to accept that he's ever done anything wrong. There's a middle ground.

But, having said that, Beane's good moves FAR outweigh his bad moves, which is evident because his teams keep making the playoffs. I don't think you can say the same thing about KW's bad vs good moves until he has at least one team play games in October. Until the Sox win their crap division one time under KW, there is no way he is as good as some here make him out to be.

Where are all of Beane's great moves? I wish I knew what they were. What players has he plunked from the scrap heap that ended up being Cy Young candidates? Who did he trade for from another franchise that has significant value as an everyday player? If the best examples are Rincon and Bradford that Beane glows about in his book, then I think that speaks for itself.

Beane is a good GM - surely top 10 in the league. I never disputed that. What I am disputing is the concept that anyone with a spreadsheet can be a good GM. I am disputing the theory of the armchair statboys here who think that Matt Stairs + Scott Hatteberg + Eric Byrnes can make a championship calibre team just because of a few selected (by Beane himself) stats. I am disputing that Beane has fleeced or fooled KW twice, as Beane's book, and many here, seem to profess.

Credit where credit is due. Beane did a good job drafting 3 young pitchers. He got lucky that they have all been healthy - in fact, his teams have had remarkable health. Now that his run with them is nearly up (Hudson a FA next year - followed by both Zito and Mulder the following year), I will be interested to see what he can do. Crosby, Swisher, the guy with titties, etc.

tstrike2000

05-07-2004, 01:14 PM

Well, what can you say about Kenny Williams? He's demonstrated he's one of the worst GM's in baseball from a trade standpoint. All of his trades have blown up in his face and the others were just for rent-a-players, ie. Colon, Alomar, and Everett. And guys like Marte, Loaiza, and Uribe (so far) were just fortunate pickups having shown not a whole lot with their previous teams. But what the organization has given up cannot be replaced. KW get's a grade F in my book.

Randar68

05-07-2004, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by JasonC23
But, having said that, Beane's good moves FAR outweigh his bad moves, which is evident because his teams keep making the playoffs. I don't think you can say the same thing about KW's bad vs good moves until he has at least one team play games in October. Until the Sox win their crap division one time under KW, there is no way he is as good as some here make him out to be.

Actually, I do think KW's good moves outweigh the negative ones. Playoffs or not, he inherited Jerry as his manager, and I can tell you one thing for certain, he didn't have final say in how long Jerry was around. That team last year was as good as any in the AL. Kenny put that team together and Jerry sank that ship. Kenny has also shown great improvements. Even Beane has messed up with contracts to some players, as has Williams, but the Beane mistakes are generally glossed over and the KW mistakes are harped-upon and magnified via repetition.

The "Big 3" as you say, for which Beane deserved PARTIAL credit (while still the fact that they developed and matured together is luck in the sense of the low likelihood of pitchers staying healthy and getting it all together at about the same time).

A large percentage of the A's top players Beane went to those 4 playoff series were inherited or acquired prior to his system being in place. Under that guise, the evidence for or against sustainability is clearly incomplete.

Making the playoffs means you have a good TEAM. Unfortunately for Beane, winning in the playoffs is often predicated on having the Marquee SUPERSTARS who rise above the other great competition at the time. Great teams know how to beat the teams they are supposed to and beat up on lesser pitchers and competition. The A's have been to 4 straight post-seasons because they beat the teams they are supposed to and are generally teams with very good role players that helps sustain the success for 162 games.

However, role players don't win in the playoffs, where every team is a very good or excellent team and the opportunities to take advantage of lesser competition are reduced or non-existent. In terms of post-season success, 4 tries does not qualify for the "small sample size" argument that some are so quick to use only when it suits them.

Kenny made some bad moves, CLEARLY, but I do believe that a majority of those moves were early in his tenure, and that's something only to be expected when you hire someone to learn on the job, again something that comes back to JR and the executive-level management. He's shown steady improvement and has also shown a propensity to pick out the diamonds in the rough from teams, something a few here are so eager to praise about Beane, but unwilling to acknowledge about KW...

People are not being even-handed, and when it get's to arguing, people go completely OVER THE TOP in order to try to prove their points (something I am guilty of as well). I try to be very fair with my perspective and criticism of things (although I've gone overboard in trying to shut down the FOC) and expect (unfairly, it seems) other people to be fair, reasonable, consistent, and even-handed.

I do not feel that many people on the Beane (or anti-KW) side of this argument have been those things.

Randar68

05-07-2004, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by tstrike2000
Well, what can you say about Kenny Williams? He's demonstrated he's one of the worst GM's in baseball from a trade standpoint. All of his trades have blown up in his face and the others were just for rent-a-players, ie. Colon, Alomar, and Everett. And guys like Marte, Loaiza, and Uribe (so far) were just fortunate pickups having shown not a whole lot with their previous teams. But what the organization has given up cannot be replaced. KW get's a grade F in my book.

LOL! Yep, bad moves are KW's stupidty, and good ones are luck. Thanks again for weighing in for the ignorant masses out there.

:whoflungpoo

JasonC23

05-08-2004, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Randar68
Making the playoffs means you have a good TEAM. Unfortunately for Beane, winning in the playoffs is often predicated on having the Marquee SUPERSTARS who rise above the other great competition at the time. Great teams know how to beat the teams they are supposed to and beat up on lesser pitchers and competition. The A's have been to 4 straight post-seasons because they beat the teams they are supposed to and are generally teams with very good role players that helps sustain the success for 162 games.

However, role players don't win in the playoffs, where every team is a very good or excellent team and the opportunities to take advantage of lesser competition are reduced or non-existent. In terms of post-season success, 4 tries does not qualify for the "small sample size" argument that some are so quick to use only when it suits them.

How many superstars do the Angels have? I mean, they had the same team in 2003 as they had in 2002, but they didn't win anything. And how many superstars do the Marlins have?

Until someone can demonstrate a surefire, foolproof formula for winning in the playoffs, I can't accept that Beane "only" knows how to make good regular season teams. I mean, what do all of the recent Yankee winners have in common with the 2001 Diamondbacks, 2002 Angels, and 2003 Marlins? Is there a common trait of all of these teams that the A's lack? And if there is, can someone tell KW, so if we ever make the playoffs, we're guaranteed a World Series win? :smile:

jabrch

05-08-2004, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by JasonC23
Until someone can demonstrate a surefire, foolproof formula for winning in the playoffs, I can't accept that Beane "only" knows how to make good regular season teams.

Well then I guess it makes no sense to have a discussion about this with you, huh? Cuz we know nothing is surefire and foolproof in sports.

Try this one though.

In the playoffs, you play usually against the best few teams in the game. The best teams USUALLY have the best pitching. I am talking about stud aces at the top of the rotations, not pitching like the Tigers or the Rockies. When they shorten their rotations, that pitching gets even better. So you are talking about Brown/Mussina/Vazquez, Zito/Mulder/Hudson or Schilling/Pedro/Lowe. Against those pitchers, mediocre hitters, like those Beane constantly identifies as good for his system, have a lesser chance of succeeding than do STARS. Make fun of the Marlins if you desire, but that team did have some stars like Pudge, as well as having Pierre/Castillo who are, as far as 1/2 guys go, top notch.

As far as the Anaheim team, they still had Glaus, Anderson and Salmon, all very good ballplayers. But you are chosing the OUTLIER as an example. Lets address the teams that have won the WS.

1998 - 2000 NYY - Stars up and down
1997 Marlins - Who cares if they were rented, but that team was packed
1996 NYY
1995 ATL - stacked
1993 - 1992 - TOR - stacked

Mediocre offensive players have very little chance of winning a shortened series against top pitching, provided that pitching team has star calibre hitting. I don't see much an arguement here.

Dadawg_77

05-08-2004, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by jabrch
Well then I guess it makes no sense to have a discussion about this with you, huh? Cuz we know nothing is surefire and foolproof in sports.

Try this one though.

In the playoffs, you play usually against the best few teams in the game. The best teams USUALLY have the best pitching. I am talking about stud aces at the top of the rotations, not pitching like the Tigers or the Rockies. When they shorten their rotations, that pitching gets even better. So you are talking about Brown/Mussina/Vazquez, Zito/Mulder/Hudson or Schilling/Pedro/Lowe. Against those pitchers, mediocre hitters, like those Beane constantly identifies as good for his system, have a lesser chance of succeeding than do STARS. Make fun of the Marlins if you desire, but that team did have some stars like Pudge, as well as having Pierre/Castillo who are, as far as 1/2 guys go, top notch.

As far as the Anaheim team, they still had Glaus, Anderson and Salmon, all very good ballplayers. But you are chosing the OUTLIER as an example. Lets address the teams that have won the WS.

1998 - 2000 NYY - Stars up and down
1997 Marlins - Who cares if they were rented, but that team was packed
1996 NYY
1995 ATL - stacked
1993 - 1992 - TOR - stacked

Mediocre offensive players have very little chance of winning a shortened series against top pitching, provided that pitching team has star calibre hitting. I don't see much an arguement here.

Your argument is complete BS. The fact a team made the playoff means you have quality players. Every team is good and the margin for error is lessen. In a five game series the best team may not win all the time because the way the ball bounces. For an example when the A's faced the Twins they scored more runs per game then they did in the season. They allowed more runs per game then they did. Or the Yankees lost a a couple of series to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, does it mean the Ray are better then the Yankees? If you believe that I have some Enron stock to sell you.

The randomness of the game is a beautiful thing, the reason people watch. Your argument rejects the randomness and basically says we don't have to play the games since the outcome is determine on paper.

gosox41

05-08-2004, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by beckett21
Bob,

I couldn't agree more. By no stretch of the imagination are the Athletics a *bad* baseball team, that is a rather impressive stretch. I don't think I ever said in so many words that they were a bad team.

As is the case with most sports, these things seem to go in cycles. Beane's philosophies are currently the *hot* item, kind of like the West Coast Offense in football. I am by no means trying to make Billy Beane out to be an idiot. He is not.

But what has he won of any significance? He is still a man, capable of error. Yet some people seem to think that he is infallible, and focus solely on his triumphs. And the media loves to flower praise on the genius with a shoestring budget and an ego larger than life itself. Want to know how good Beane is? Just ask him, and I'll be willing to bet he'd be happy to tell you.

With KW, one of our own, all that seems to be trumpeted are his failures and shortcomings. He deserves more credit than that. If he were truly the idiot some make him out to be, this team would be floundering in last place.

Last I checked, the White Sox were in first place. And guess what...the minor league system is healthy and talent-laden.

I used to be on the other side of this argument. But looking at all his moves with an even hand, I have to admit he has done a better job than I have ever given him credit for. But when all you hear about is Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch, it's hard to look beyond that.

The guy is doing a damn good job. Reaping the benefits is on the horizon.

The general time frame for a team to win that doesn't have unlimted resources is about 6 years. Billy has done more then KW so far in that time frame.

I don't think Beane is a god, but he is a genius. I beleive he'll adapt to a changing environment.

As for this minor league system, I hear good things and look forward to seeing Reed. But had a KW drafted player made it to the bigs yet as a member of the Sox. KW has run 4 drafts according to people here.

Bob

OEO Magglio

05-08-2004, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by tstrike2000
Well, what can you say about Kenny Williams? He's demonstrated he's one of the worst GM's in baseball from a trade standpoint. All of his trades have blown up in his face and the others were just for rent-a-players, ie. Colon, Alomar, and Everett. And guys like Marte, Loaiza, and Uribe (so far) were just fortunate pickups having shown not a whole lot with their previous teams. But what the organization has given up cannot be replaced. KW get's a grade F in my book.
So when kenny does something bad it's completely his fault, but if he does something good it's luck???

gosox41

05-08-2004, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by OEO Magglio
So when kenny does something bad it's completely his fault, but if he does something good it's luck???

In KW's case, sometimes it is. Who was the guy that wanted Frank out of here before JR restructured his contract? Who held KW's hand in the Colon trade to make sure the Red Sox didn't get him? That's a lucky break.

Who is the guy this offseason that was ready to trade Magglio for Nomar and then possible forward Nomar on to the Dodgers while pursuing the likes of Juan Gonzalez? Thank goodness that fell apart.

Bob

iwannago

05-09-2004, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by gosox41
In KW's case, sometimes it is. Who was the guy that wanted Frank out of here before JR restructured his contract? Who held KW's hand in the Colon trade to make sure the Red Sox didn't get him? That's a lucky break.

Who is the guy this offseason that was ready to trade Magglio for Nomar and then possible forward Nomar on to the Dodgers while pursuing the likes of Juan Gonzalez? Thank goodness that fell apart.