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If you wish to "define" enlightenment, please sit this conversation out because if you don't understand it such that you need to define it, I personally don't think you know it at all. I've seen too many "debates" from people who try to "define" the terms only to find they were completely ignorant of the subject matter. Lest anyone takes offense, I have been one of those people.

What's wrong with seeking to define the terms of a discussion, especially when it's blatantly obvious that people are using differing and contradictory definitions? I personally think you're wrong, that "enlightenment" can't be usefully defined. The thing is, a useful definition doesn't mean complete enumeration. It doesn't mean you're writing down a recipe or a formula. It doesn't mean that you're encompassing the thing itself. I can, for example, usefully define "from zero to infinity" for all kinds of practical purposes (I'll give you a specific case if you want one; it has to do with parallel processing), but that's not to say that I've therefore somehow encompassed the experience of all numbers from one to infinity. Definition isn't the same thing as constraint; please don't take it as such.

In my life, there have been two things which, when first I heard about them, I immediately felt a sense of certainty that they were...well, a part of me. Those two things are Vajrayana Buddhism, as transmitted via Tibetan tradition, and Aikido. In retrospect, I could question that sense of certainty - maybe it was just timing, maybe just a young man's fancy, etc...but in any case I have engaged in both with some persistence and intensity for more than 20 years.

Enlightenment is an experience that is completely beyond conceptual understanding. Anything you can say about it is incomplete, and therefore somewhat 'wrong'. But it is still worthwhile to talk about it, so long as we're careful not to get to attached to the concepts and discussion. Moreover, In a very real way, Enlightenment is omnipresent and instantly available if we simply wake up to it. However, being able to [reside in the experience and dance within the phenomenal world without believing in the dualistic appearance of phenomena], is a very different proposition than having a momentary flash of recognition of the omnipresent ground state. Therefore, there are very few beings who manifest as Buddhas in a way that is recognizable to most of us.

There is no way to "teach" enlightenment. A being recognizes it, or does not. But there are many things a human being can do that increase the likelihood of making a critical discovery, of having an Aha! moment. Engaging in religious rituals can be a powerful method, if one comes to the rituals with correct understanding and correct intention. Engaging in non-religious mindfulness training methods seems to be even more effective; as these methods offer somewhat fewer opportunities to get caught in the trap of being a "true believer".

Taking the classic analogy, let us say that the experience of Enlightenment is the experience of suddenly seeing the moon shining brightly in sky. If Buddhism (or any other discipline) is a finger pointing at the moon, then the study of Buddhism is like studying the anatomy of the hand. Counting the bones, understanding the ligaments and skin, or seeing the spinning chakra in palm - all that is well and good, but at some point, some lucky and perceptive students of the religion look to see where the finger is pointing. Others get stuck on the hand - possibly even to the point where they would go to war with other people whose teachers used a stick to point at the moon, instead of a finger.

So, I don't question whether Aikido teaches enlightenment. To me, that's asking whether it's a stick or a finger. Instead, I ask myself - does Aikido provide a path that supports my awakening at this moment? Does it increase or decrease my emotional confusion? Does it increase or decrease the ossification of my dualistic conceptual framework that obscures my direct perception of ...this very instant of experience?

My honest answer varies from day to day, from moment to moment. And that variance has nothing to do with Aikido; it is entirely due to my own state of mind, my motivation in the moment, and the way I choose to utilize my attention.

That said, when I do answer the question honestly, I find that Aikido is less profound as tool or path to enlightenment than some other things. Chi Gung, Yoga, my meditation practices, the Work of Byron Katie, these tend to be stronger medicine, with fewer side effects - but Aikido is much more fun, so I spend more time and energy on it.

In any case, the path of expanding my experience of enlightenment is a zigzag. Every medicine has side-effects, for which there is another, more subtle remedy is required. Every technique overshoots the mark, and some counterbalance is needed. But right now, I feel my Aikido practice does much more good than harm as I refine my balance and stability, as I release attachments and hangups that hinder my ability to live in the brilliance of Vividly Clear Present Wakefulness Suffused with Joy.

The genius of o'sensei was that he "enlightened" us in bringing out what we already possess that we didn't know we inherently have (ie martial arts). You bring "it" out through practicing the art but only through long, dedicated and rigorous practice. I think you get "enlightened" when you start knowing what "it" is that we already possess that at first we didn't know we already have.

Does anyone here actually know anyone they considered enlightened that did it through Aikido?

Hello to all of the Aikido community here.

Kevin Leavitt a hello to you and a good question. May I responded.

Do you mean in a religious sense. A person who subscribed to the spiritual pillar of Aikido walking the path the Founder cut for Aikido coming to the same spiritual knowledge or insight as he. Yes, many people in Aikido become enlightened because of Aikido. You don' t have to be some Aikidophile zen meditating esthetic searching for the ultimate Aikido satori. The extreme isn't necessary, a huge myth that has been an unrealistic stereotype for years. Understanding and having the knowledge to any degree that non-violence and compassion for others will make the world a better place is enlightenment. People are enlightened who get the value of conflict resolution, the value of deescalation, realizing aggression and violence aren't really an effective way to solve problems. Live by the sword, die by the sword isn't the way of life everyone wants to subscribe too. Upon the understanding a peaceful life has more benefits internally and externally in a person's life than a violent life, I would consider that enlightenment. Many people in Aikido arrive to that knowledge and insight.

The Founder was not fond of competition as I understand. For the Founder if I understand his legacy correctly was a means of violence. Competition was mock violence with a winner and a loser resembling actual combat. Randori isn't a contest as I see it. It isn't framed as a combat of winners and losers. I see randori as a exercise, an alternative means to a competition, it is sparing, a free-style practice. There is no victory or loser in declared randori. All involved is helping to polish each other's skills. That is the way it works for me.

Some people see no difference between randori and a contest. The external observation when looking at both things there is equal violence. Internally the mind sets are not the same. Randori effects the individual's perspective and psyche differently than a contest where two people try and beat the other with all they got. Those in close contact sports tend to be very aggressive, like football linemen, boxer's, hockey players and others. I don't know anyone who walks away from randori and feeling victorious, yelling "(I) or (we) kicked asses all over the place, YEAH!" Most people come out enlightened.

It is always greatly appreciated to be able be here and express thoughts for others to share.

is it $9.99? i don't want to pay $10 for it. free shipping? what about side-effects? will there be any adverse side-effects like losing hair (not a problem here), memory (not a problem here either)?

Dear Phi,
Included in the $9.99 is a Rastafarian hat , suitable for all sizes, male , female , with hair and bald as a coot. For an extra $300 it can be signed by you know who.All profits from the sales goes to Bank de Suisse, c/o Golden Center of Aikido [Inc].
Please not no returns accepted . Cheers, Joe.

When IP/aiki (just a reference to a historical event. Please don't drag it into this thread. It deserves it's own) reared its head, quite a few people stated that aikido was also spiritual and that must be taken into account.

If you read the Voices of Experience thread, some believe aikido can be a path to enlightenment. In this thread, some confused the title (which was only a play on words from the other thread) with "teaching" enlightenment. Some didn't equate the two at all. Some don't know anything about the path to enlightenment even with years of training in aikido.

It is your own art that teaches it has a spiritual component. Just where do you think that ends? Goes toward?

I personally think Modern Aikido is not only a hindrance to a spiritual path, but takes one off that path altogether.

Is enlightenment by definition the end goal of a spiritual practice, Mark? I think that's a broad assumption. I don't even know what enlightenment means except I suspect it is achieved, not learned...but isn't it specific to certain religions, not others? So how can all spiritual practices have enlightenment as a goal?
I ask these not to be a smartass but because I do consider aikido my spiritual training, and I'm an atheist, and the concept of enlightenment just doesn't resonate with me.

What I keep seeing in this thread is that people have different ideas of what "enlightenment" is, or may be. In my Christian upbringing, I never heard the word "enlightenment" used, but I'm guessing that if a Christian were asked to define it with relevance to his/her spiritual tradition, it would be something about knowing (the nature of?) Jesus Christ. That's very different from a Buddhist definition, and different yet again from the various popular culture notions of "enlightenment". Ipso facto, enlightenment is not the goal of every spiritual practice or tradition; they'll tell you so themselves, as long as you let them use their own terminology and not force them to use yours. And if you do force them to use your word, they'll simply use it to mean whatever they want, which has nothing to do with the goal of your spiritual practice.

I think also, just as there's no singular goal of spiritual practice, there's no singular spiritual path. Thus, discussion of whether aikido leads you further on "the spiritual path" or takes you further away from it, is to my mind kind of like arguing about whether "the road" takes you toward Topeka or farther away from it. Which road are we talking about?

I kinda stayed away from this, but I suppose I do have something to say.

With all due respect I think the question is a bit of a straw man argument.

As the discussion goes, the argument is made that some claim Aikido, for them, has a spiritual aspect that is something other than just the martial effectiveness, historic lineage, IS, cool outfits, or whatever is used to in essence define what Aikido is all about. So it's not *just* one thing or another, but for some it also includes something people say is "spiritual".

But then you talk about "can you achieve enlightenment". That's quite a jump from someone saying there are spiritual components to their practice to asking about enlightenment. It seems to me that spiritual aspects to practice could cover a wide range of things of varying "weights" for that matter. And many of those "spiritual" aspects of practice for some have absolutely nothing to do with enlightenment in any sense of the word that I can think of.

Honestly I think many practice with some idea of personal improvement which many would consider "spiritual" improvement. Making one's self a better person for instance. Finding a peaceful resolution to a conflict. Trying to apply those lessons in daily life not necessarily involving physical confrontation. Learning self-control under stress. Learning to let stress go. Heck, for many just the act of practicing long term is itself "training" of a spiritual nature. A long term goal with devotion, focus, and continued focus on that goal over the period of years (decades for some of us).

And yes, one can approach playing chess or flower arranging with a spiritual mind. Consider chado, ikebana, or any variety of other Japanese "arts" that involve a similar mindset. As such Aikido for many includes that aspect as well. The "goal" isn't enlightenment for most. It is the process itself.

Anyway, I'll add to this that I'm not looking for enlightenment in my practice. I just want to be able to do cool stuff, train more, and learn more. I *like* aikido. I find it challenging (which means it can challenge me for a long time which is itself kind of a spiritual growth thing, neh?). But I'm pretty down to earth in my practice. I'm not a fluffy aiki bunny by any stretch.

But I don't think this sort of argument works or is very well thought out to be perfectly honest. Logically jumping from "we have a spiritual component which is important to our practice" to "can you attain enlightement" or even "look at all the bad things that have happened" really are logical straw men.

Religions have their scandals, crusades, and loons. It doesn't mean the religion in question (please just fill in whatever blank you wish) is itself inherently bad, evil, wrong, or whatever. I think there is little doubt that things like religions and even arts like aikido by their very nature tend to attract the "true believer" types. And those tend to be the ones who pervert things in to the vision they want to see. It gives them a home, gives them a structure, but I wouldn't judge anything other than those people themselves.

Enlightenment is one of those words as Greg Steckel points out that is open to a broad interpretation. If I may offer a few cents. The definition of enlightenment in terms of Aikido can be very broad and obscure for those who bring in loosely associated similarities to the Founder's experience creating a myriad of definitions. It is possible to come to define enlightenment via Aikido, the Founder clearly stated it.

Let's began with saying Aikido isn't religion. To some it maybe observed as a religion, but acutely it is a budo. There are others who treat it as a personal spiritual path of development. Spiritual to them is more than the simile of personal growth and development. Aikido becomes substitute for conventional religion. But again, it is a budo. The Founder did have spiritual beliefs instead of a conventional religion like that of mono-theism.

The Founder and his belief system a mix of budo and Omoto-kyu is more of a movement then a conventional religion. In comparison, there is more similarities with the Judo Shinshu Budhism than any of the mono-theistic religions. Spiritual beliefs and laws that much of the world has been influenced by and practices. Much of what the Founder propagated wasn't salvation, but social reform. The Founder's enlightenment was the importance in the preservation of peace, the ending of people hating each other to the extent of wanting to kill others, the elements that create war. That was enlightenment for him.

Going by the Founder's definition of enlightenment is a realization of social and personal reform. The Founder grew up under the last glimmering light of the glory of the Samurai. Times were killing and war was the only way of life, it was glorified and romanticized. Peace and preservation of life wasn't highly valued, spilling of blood, death and war was, in the times of the Samurai. The Founder's enlightenment wasn't spiritual as it was social reform. An enlightenment is more along the lines of an Age of Enlightenment Japanese style. A personal transition of the way to live and see the world leading to social reform.

The definition of enlightenment is less obscure than what it is made out to be. It is a realization that peace is more important than war. Love (not the best choice of word imo, better is compassion) over violence. A similar message Christ and others taught. A message that has gone unheeded in many parts of the world who insist war; senseless slaughter of people is the way. The realization of peace over war/violence especially and initially for Japan. The Founder clearly defined enlightenment for Aikido.

In Peace.

Footnote: If I am not mistaken the word "dojo" as well as the physical place has its contextual root in Jodo Shinshu. The dojo is a spiritual place but is is defined and observed by that of Jodo Shinshu Buddhism. Yet, many dojos traditionally incorporate Shinto elements such as the kamidana/god shelf the mantle of the dojo. The dojo has a dual spiritual elements and meaning in practice. Aikido Kamadanas are not generally the typical Shinto Kamadanas you see in budo dojo's, but the Judo Shinsu context remains. The dojo is a spiritual place.

The definition of enlightenment is less obscure than what it is made out to be. It is a realization that peace is more important than war. Love (not the best choice of word imo, better is compassion) over violence.

Enlightenment is one of those words as Greg Steckel points out that is open to a broad interpretation. If I may offer a few cents. The definition of enlightenment in terms of Aikido can be very broad and obscure for those who bring in loosely associated similarities to the Founder's experience creating a myriad of definitions. It is possible to come to define enlightenment via Aikido, the Founder clearly stated it.

Let's began with saying Aikido isn't religion. To some it maybe observed as a religion, but acutely it is a budo. There are others who treat it as a personal spiritual path of development. Spiritual to them is more than the simile of personal growth and development. Aikido becomes substitute for conventional religion. But again, it is a budo. The Founder did have spiritual beliefs instead of a conventional religion like that of mono-theism.

The Founder and his belief system a mix of budo and Omoto-kyu is more of a movement then a conventional religion. In comparison, there is more similarities with the Judo Shinshu Budhism than any of the mono-theistic religions. Spiritual beliefs and laws that much of the world has been influenced by and practices. Much of what the Founder propagated wasn't salvation, but social reform. The Founder's enlightenment was the importance in the preservation of peace, the ending of people hating each other to the extent of wanting to kill others, the elements that create war. That was enlightenment for him.

Going by the Founder's definition of enlightenment is a realization of social and personal reform. The Founder grew up under the last glimmering light of the glory of the Samurai. Times were killing and war was the only way of life, it was glorified and romanticized. Peace and preservation of life wasn't highly valued, spilling of blood, death and war was, in the times of the Samurai. The Founder's enlightenment wasn't spiritual as it was social reform. An enlightenment is more along the lines of an Age of Enlightenment Japanese style. A personal transition of the way to live and see the world leading to social reform.

The definition of enlightenment is less obscure than what it is made out to be. It is a realization that peace is more important than war. Love (not the best choice of word imo, better is compassion) over violence. A similar message Christ and others taught. A message that has gone unheeded in many parts of the world who insist war; senseless slaughter of people is the way. The realization of peace over war/violence especially and initially for Japan. The Founder clearly defined enlightenment for Aikido.

In Peace.

Footnote: If I am not mistaken the word "dojo" as well as the physical place has its contextual root in Jodo Shinshu. The dojo is a spiritual place but is is defined and observed by that of Jodo Shinshu Buddhism. Yet, many dojos traditionally incorporate Shinto elements such as the kamidana/god shelf the mantle of the dojo. The dojo has a dual spiritual elements and meaning in practice. Aikido Kamadanas are not generally the typical Shinto Kamadanas you see in budo dojo's, but the Judo Shinsu context remains. The dojo is a spiritual place.

By the time the Ueshiba was born the Samurai era had already been over for 20 years. Takeda is the one who really crossed over.

The word "dojo" does have its roots in Buddhism, but not specifically Jodo Shinshu.

FWIW, Ueshiba was educated in a Shingon temple, which is quite different from Jodo Shinshu. He continued to use Shingon terminology and concepts when he spoke, even into his later years.

I'm not sure what your point is with Kamidana, but it's very common in Japanese households to have both Buddhist and Shinto accoutrements.

Dissecting the Founder's enlightenment is very tricky, even in Japanese, and technical instruction is woven throughout everything. I think that it's very difficult to try and dissect it based upon the current uncertain translations, and without a background in the context of what he was speaking about.

The word "dojo" does have its roots in Buddhism, but not specifically Jodo Shinshu.

FWIW, Ueshiba was educated in a Shingon temple, which is quite different from Jodo Shinshu. He continued to use Shingon terminology and concepts when he spoke, even into his later years.

I'm not sure what your point is with Kamidana, but it's very common in Japanese households to have both Buddhist and Shinto accoutrements.

Dissecting the Founder's enlightenment is very tricky, even in Japanese, and technical instruction is woven throughout everything. I think that it's very difficult to try and dissect it based upon the current uncertain translations, and without a background in the context of what he was speaking about.

Best,

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that reply. What the founder did and what Modern Aikido did are different in regards to the "spiritual". Please try to keep the topic to Modern Aikido. If you wish to discuss Morihei Ueshiba and his skills/abilities/spirituality, you can create a thread in the Non-Aikido Forum where it belongs.

The word "dojo" does have its roots in Buddhism, but not specifically Jodo Shinshu.

FWIW, Ueshiba was educated in a Shingon temple, which is quite different from Jodo Shinshu. He continued to use Shingon terminology and concepts when he spoke, even into his later years.

I'm not sure what your point is with Kamidana, but it's very common in Japanese households to have both Buddhist and Shinto accoutrements.

Dissecting the Founder's enlightenment is very tricky, even in Japanese, and technical instruction is woven throughout everything. I think that it's very difficult to try and dissect it based upon the current uncertain translations, and without a background in the context of what he was speaking about.

Best,

Chris

Hello Mr. Chris Li. Thank you for a kindly response.

Your points are well defined. Yes, the trickiness you speak about is something I see too. The footnote about the dojo and Jodo Shinshu signifies the complexity. In deed, it is tricky because of something that can be explain in an adequate metaphor of an onion having many layers. There is no question this is a complexed issue within the world of the Japanese.

A solution like any problem is to get to the root. What was brought up was the difficultly in getting a definition. It is very clear though the Founder's accounts of his enlightenment his message is peace and love (I prefer the word compassion). He is against war and violence of it / the slaughtering of people. Avoiding more complexity to the issue helps see the root of his message. It is easy to attribute or attach current-issues like abortion, or anger as violence to the Founder's message. Getting at the root of his message makes the issue less tricky. We are lucky his message was clear and relatable. It wasn't a message either that was uniquely his. That helps tremendously in understanding his view of enlightenment. It really is simple, stop being violent as the Japanese where in their past (wars) and be peaceful (stop killing and harming people).

Thanks for that reply. What the founder did and what Modern Aikido did are different in regards to the "spiritual". Please try to keep the topic to Modern Aikido. If you wish to discuss Morihei Ueshiba and his skills/abilities/spirituality, you can create a thread in the Non-Aikido Forum where it belongs.

Mark

Hello everyone and thank you.

Mr. Mark Murray, not to be rude or cause controversy, but isn't Aikido a modern art, a gendai and not a koryu? I interpreted the word Modern in the tile and in your post in that way. I apologize for that mistake, as for me there is no such thing as ancient Aikido. I am confused by the usage of the word modern then as kindly pointed out. Truly am I unaware of the another usages or meanings in your post. Please for give me again, but can you explain your subject in more detail so that I will not offend or get side tracked.