NYTimes.com - Game Theory- Making Room for the Women.Unfortunately this rise in so-called casual play has upset some of those who see themselves as guardians of the true flame. There’s been a definite backlash against the idea that women are entering the hallowed citadel, dropping in a few scatter cushions and ending all the fun. Particular ire is reserved for anyone who dares to point out that female characters in games are often unsupported in the bra region for no apparent reason; given boring, bland supporting roles; and totally absent.

Jerykk wrote on Dec 28, 2012, 01:47:Adult males are the target audience of hardcore games because they are the largest demographic for such games.

But which came first? The demographic demanding that style of sexist game or the sexist game that demanded an audience and lucked out?

I remember when Quake was -the- hardcore game, how could that game be successful without boobs? The demographic was fine with the products released that lacked overt sexism. So why the shift?

I also think comparing film and games is like comparing apples to twinkies. While there is sexism within Bond films they aren't sexist, they are capable of providing entertainment for both genders without forcing anyone to adopt a particular behaviour. You never have to grow a thicker skin to deal with verbal abuse from other moviegoers.

Games have become a lot more mainstream since Quake came out. Larger audience = lower standards. Also, as technology has evolved, so has the ability to portray sexy digital women. Trying to have sexy women in Quake would have been grotesque given the low poly limits and low-res textures. That said, there was plenty of sexism in games around that time. Duke 3D, Redneck Rampage, Shadow Warrior, Leisure Suit Larry... hell, even Mario. Why does Mario always have to save the princess? Why is she so weak and incompetent that she can't protect herself? Sexist!

Also, the only female enemy in Quake 2 (the Iron Maiden) is scantily clad and has big boobs. There was even an easter egg where you see a couple of Iron Maidens basically worshiping a Tank who's sitting on a throne.

Draugr wrote on Dec 28, 2012, 00:01:You're anecdote boils down to 'I don't think women really are into games because when I went to LAN parties I think one of the women only played because of her boyfriend, and the other two I don't consider good enough to be real gamers'...Strange how bad players at LAN parties who have penises aren't written off in such a fashion. No one questions them about being 'real gamers' they're just shitty players.

The other two(one of whom is a good friend of mine) were basically there because they were friends with the group of us who played games together. Neither of them played much outside of LAN parties. Certainly neither of them invested into gaming systems or even bought games with the rest of us.

I think it's silly to take an anecdote as evidence alone, which you're basically doing. The very fact that your anecdote has 3 women in it kind of proves the point that there are women who play these kind of games. Certainly it is a male dominated hobby, but they aren't just conjured up or only there to play because of a man as you and others seem to imply. I mean there were three examples in your story, but you focused on the woman who was there because of her boyfriend, the only one of the three that reinforced your argument.

Well here's some more anecdotal evidence for you. I've been a computer tech and IT admin for 17 years and have the opportunity to see thousands of systems as they come into our workshop for repairs. I have yet to see a system belonging to a woman come in with games like those that weren't installed by her kids or boyfriend. And more often than not, they want them uninstalled. But maybe all those women are too embarrassed about the fact that they play Dawn of War and Counterstrike, so they blame it on their kids and husbands.

If I told a story about how there were no black people at the LAN parties I attended growing up, and therefore it leads me to believe that black people aren't into video games (or aren't into the same video games as white people,) I think you'd consider that pretty absurd. This is what you're asking us to do with your anecdote.

If you grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood, then even though I'd say your argument was flawed(and you were probably overly sheltered), I'd at least understand why you made it. However, we aren't talking about a specific ethnicity that is concentrated in a specific region, we are talking about a gender that's pretty much everywhere(unless you're a monk living in a male-only monastery). Women actually outnumber men where I live.

There are also probably more female players that play the kind of games you say they don't than you'd think. You play hundreds of faceless people when you play online, some of those people are going to be women. Obviously you'd be none the wiser unless you asked.

Except I do ask quite often. As I said, I see thousands of computers belonging to all sorts of people due to my job. Generally when I find games on them, I ask who installed them because a lot of people get upset over the fact that their kids are using their PCs for games.

I'm not saying that women gamers who play those games dont' exist at all. I'm just saying that I seriously doubt that their numbers are very high. I can totally believe that they flourish in the casual market. I just don't think that the numbers for more traditional hardcore games are there.

Because some people would prefer things to change, and do what they can to affect it instead of just keeping their head down. The consolation prize I guess, is people like yourself who don't want to play halo because of toxic environment can reap the benefits. As you said you don't play these games for the very reasons she is talking about them anyway, so if this is really where the focus is I don't see why you would be concerned.

I don't have an issue with people wanting to change XBox Live(and goodluck trying to correct bad parenting from the internet side). My issue is that all these articles lump all aspects of gaming into the same boat as if XBox Live represents every gaming community for every genre of game ever made. If there is a problem with behavior on XBox Live, then fine. That doesn't mean that the community for Endless Space has the same problem. Or that the community for Tribes Ascend has the same problem.

Slashman wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 18:28:In my LAN party days, there were only about 3 women who would set up and play with the rest of the group. Of those 3, there was one who was really good at FPS games and she repeatedly kicked a lot of our butts in UT and Quake(including mine). At the end of the day though, as good as she was, she really wasn't that into gaming for itself, she just had a boyfriend who was hardcore into gaming and she picked it up from him. It was way more about doing something with her boyfriend than anything else.

Basically, I think that's your answer. While as a male, I'm going to respond to scantily clad women and similar attempts to appeal to my base male urges, in the end I'm going to respond way more to great gameplay and the challenge of pushing myself to overcome both human and AI opponents in a game. In general, women will respond way less to those things.

You're anecdote boils down to 'I don't think women really are into games because when I went to LAN parties I think one of the women only played because of her boyfriend, and the other two I don't consider good enough to be real gamers'...Strange how bad players at LAN parties who have penises aren't written off in such a fashion. No one questions them about being 'real gamers' they're just shitty players.

I think it's silly to take an anecdote as evidence alone, which you're basically doing. The very fact that your anecdote has 3 women in it kind of proves the point that there are women who play these kind of games. Certainly it is a male dominated hobby, but they aren't just conjured up or only there to play because of a man as you and others seem to imply. I mean there were three examples in your story, but you focused on the woman who was there because of her boyfriend, the only one of the three that reinforced your argument. If I told a story about how there were no black people at the LAN parties I attended growing up, and therefore it leads me to believe that black people aren't into video games (or aren't into the same video games as white people,) I think you'd consider that pretty absurd. This is what you're asking us to do with your anecdote.

There are also probably more female players that play the kind of games you say they don't than you'd think. You play hundreds of faceless people when you play online, some of those people are going to be women. Obviously you'd be none the wiser unless you asked.

The reason I question articles like this is because the women in them seem to have such a narrow focus in gaming. Halo and CoD on XBox Live. Never anything else mentioned. What are they expecting to get from a bunch of immature, teenaged brats? Why even put yourself into that environment? I don't even want to go there as a male.

Because some people would prefer things to change, and do what they can to affect it instead of just keeping their head down. The consolation prize I guess, is people like yourself who don't want to play halo because of toxic environment can reap the benefits. As you said you don't play these games for the very reasons she is talking about them anyway, so if this is really where the focus is I don't see why you would be concerned.

Most normal woman just aren't interested in hardcore games. You can try and dispute that til you're blue in the face, it won't make it any less of a fact. Sure you do get the occasional chika that doesn't mind a shooter but that's so few and far between it's not even funny.

There wasn't a shift. Games are likely better today than they used to be. Remember old RPG ads? Pick up any CGW circa 1992 and just cringe. It's ads, and box art, like that that led to the whole "lives in a basement and never touches a woman" stereotype.

I'd say games have shifted less horrible, but the communities remain the same.

Jerykk wrote on Dec 28, 2012, 01:47:Adult males are the target audience of hardcore games because they are the largest demographic for such games.

But which came first? The demographic demanding that style of sexist game or the sexist game that demanded an audience and lucked out?

I remember when Quake was -the- hardcore game, how could that game be successful without boobs? The demographic was fine with the products released that lacked overt sexism. So why the shift?

I also think comparing film and games is like comparing apples to twinkies. While there is sexism within Bond films they aren't sexist, they are capable of providing entertainment for both genders without forcing anyone to adopt a particular behaviour. You never have to grow a thicker skin to deal with verbal abuse from other moviegoers.

Depending on what facet of the industry you look at it already happened, especially on the casual side of the fence (where most titles are either gender neutral or feature characters who are less sexualized). The games might not be as 'real' as true hardcore gamers expect but billions of dollars in revenue is still billions of dollars going into the gaming industry.

We might want to start actually catering rather than pandering to that demographic.

The casual market was never male dominated to begin with, which is why those games don't cater specifically to an adult male audience. The casual market has always been driven primarily by women and children. If casual gamers were comprised primarily of adult males, we'd see just as much sexism in casual games as we do in hardcore games.

I'm not really sure what feminists are trying to achieve with these articles. They're just regurgitating the same old complaints that everyone has heard a million times. Businesses will always cater to their target audience. Adult males are the target audience of hardcore games because they are the largest demographic for such games. If you don't want to see sexy women in your games, you should just stick with casual games because you are not the target audience for hardcore games. It's like complaining that a James Bond movie is sexist. While true, such a criticism is redundant because James Bond is inherently sexist and was designed to appeal to adult males.

Slashman wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 18:28:In my LAN party days, there were only about 3 women who would set up and play with the rest of the group. Of those 3, there was one who was really good at FPS games and she repeatedly kicked a lot of our butts in UT and Quake(including mine). At the end of the day though, as good as she was, she really wasn't that into gaming for itself, she just had a boyfriend who was hardcore into gaming and she picked it up from him. It was way more about doing something with her boyfriend than anything else.

Basically, I think that's your answer. While as a male, I'm going to respond to scantily clad women and similar attempts to appeal to my base male urges, in the end I'm going to respond way more to great gameplay and the challenge of pushing myself to overcome both human and AI opponents in a game. In general, women will respond way less to those things.

You're anecdote boils down to 'I don't think women really are into games because when I went to LAN parties I think one of the women only played because of her boyfriend, and the other two I don't consider good enough to be real gamers'...Strange how bad players at LAN parties who have penises aren't written off in such a fashion. No one questions them about being 'real gamers' they're just shitty players.

I think it's silly to take an anecdote as evidence alone, which you're basically doing. The very fact that your anecdote has 3 women in it kind of proves the point that there are women who play these kind of games. Certainly it is a male dominated hobby, but they aren't just conjured up or only there to play because of a man as you and others seem to imply. I mean there were three examples in your story, but you focused on the woman who was there because of her boyfriend, the only one of the three that reinforced your argument. If I told a story about how there were no black people at the LAN parties I attended growing up, and therefore it leads me to believe that black people aren't into video games (or aren't into the same video games as white people,) I think you'd consider that pretty absurd. This is what you're asking us to do with your anecdote.

There are also probably more female players that play the kind of games you say they don't than you'd think. You play hundreds of faceless people when you play online, some of those people are going to be women. Obviously you'd be none the wiser unless you asked.

The reason I question articles like this is because the women in them seem to have such a narrow focus in gaming. Halo and CoD on XBox Live. Never anything else mentioned. What are they expecting to get from a bunch of immature, teenaged brats? Why even put yourself into that environment? I don't even want to go there as a male.

Because some people would prefer things to change, and do what they can to affect it instead of just keeping their head down. The consolation prize I guess, is people like yourself who don't want to play halo because of toxic environment can reap the benefits. As you said you don't play these games for the very reasons she is talking about them anyway, so if this is really where the focus is I don't see why you would be concerned.

Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 16:51:How would you characterize the passing of laws that force women who want to have an abortion, by law, to have a ultra sound probe put into their vaginas which is not medically necessary?Here is a long list of evidence for the war on women that you don't believe it's happening.http://www.politicususa.com/proof-war-women-2But I'm sure you have no desire to read the long lists on that page and verify whether what they are saying is true or not.

I love the counters to the trans ultrasound that female legislators have introduced: men need prostrate exams to get a v1@gra prescription. B/C informed decisions and all that. Cracked me up while simultaneously exposing the trans ultrasound law for the stupidity that it is.

Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 02:01:I have a novel idea, rather than speculating on why women don't go to LAN parties, I think it would be better to ask them in an environment where they can say what they really think freely without fear or intimidation or any other social pressure.

Why don't you enlighten me on what you think the reasons are.

Personally I am way less interested in the fact that none of them wanted to participate at a LAN party than I am in the fact that they still don't play those games in the privacy of their own homes. So I'd say it has way less to do with social pressure than a general lack of interest in hardcore gaming.

I don't know. I haven't looked. That's why I said we should ask them what is unappealing about gaming.

Do we really need to? I mean, this is anecdotal evidence of course, but I find most women aren't attracted to the same things in gaming that men are. They don't generally see the value of competing for competing's sake. They won't sit down and play a game like Civ 5 or Sword of the Stars. There is generally not enough emotional investment in it apart from the drive to win(which is enough for most men) but not really a big motivating force for women.

In my LAN party days, there were only about 3 women who would set up and play with the rest of the group. Of those 3, there was one who was really good at FPS games and she repeatedly kicked a lot of our butts in UT and Quake(including mine). At the end of the day though, as good as she was, she really wasn't that into gaming for itself, she just had a boyfriend who was hardcore into gaming and she picked it up from him. It was way more about doing something with her boyfriend than anything else.

Basically, I think that's your answer. While as a male, I'm going to respond to scantily clad women and similar attempts to appeal to my base male urges, in the end I'm going to respond way more to great gameplay and the challenge of pushing myself to overcome both human and AI opponents in a game. In general, women will respond way less to those things.

The reason I question articles like this is because the women in them seem to have such a narrow focus in gaming. Halo and CoD on XBox Live. Never anything else mentioned. What are they expecting to get from a bunch of immature, teenaged brats? Why even put yourself into that environment? I don't even want to go there as a male.

Depending on what facet of the industry you look at it already happened, especially on the casual side of the fence (where most titles are either gender neutral or feature characters who are less sexualized). The games might not be as 'real' as true hardcore gamers expect but billions of dollars in revenue is still billions of dollars going into the gaming industry.

We might want to start actually catering rather than pandering to that demographic.

Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.

If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!

Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.

Which is what makes this thread so amusing. In a depressing way. :S

Didn't you hear? There's a war on woman going on or some shit. At least that's what the left keeps spouting.

How would you characterize the passing of laws that force women who want to have an abortion, by law, to have a ultra sound probe put into their vaginas which is not medically necessary?Here is a long list of evidence for the war on women that you don't believe it's happening.http://www.politicususa.com/proof-war-women-2But I'm sure you have no desire to read the long lists on that page and verify whether what they are saying is true or not.

Yay, another article about how sexist the games industry is. What a revelation! Oh wait, no it isn't. We live in a male-dominated world. The movie industry is sexist. The music industry is sexist. The advertising industry is sexist. Stating the obvious isn't going to change anything and it definitely isn't going to make people any less sexist.

Men like looking at sexy women and anything geared towards men is going to take advantage of that. Unless the male gaming demographic suddenly becomes overtaken by women gamers, that isn't going to change.

Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 02:01:I have a novel idea, rather than speculating on why women don't go to LAN parties, I think it would be better to ask them in an environment where they can say what they really think freely without fear or intimidation or any other social pressure.

Why don't you enlighten me on what you think the reasons are.

Personally I am way less interested in the fact that none of them wanted to participate at a LAN party than I am in the fact that they still don't play those games in the privacy of their own homes. So I'd say it has way less to do with social pressure than a general lack of interest in hardcore gaming.

I don't know. I haven't looked. That's why I said we should ask them what is unappealing about gaming.

Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.

If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!

Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.

Which is what makes this thread so amusing. In a depressing way. :S

Didn't you hear? There's a war on woman going on or some shit. At least that's what the left keeps spouting.

How would you characterize the passing of laws that force women who want to have an abortion, by law, to have a ultra sound probe put into their vaginas which is not medically necessary?Here is a long list of evidence for the war on women that you don't believe it's happening.http://www.politicususa.com/proof-war-women-2But I'm sure you have no desire to read the long lists on that page and verify whether what they are saying is true or not.

Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.

If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!

Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.

Which is what makes this thread so amusing. In a depressing way. :S

Didn't you hear? There's a war on woman going on or some shit. At least that's what the left keeps spouting.

How would you characterize the passing of laws that force women who want to have an abortion, by law, to have a ultra sound probe put into their vaginas which is not medically necessary?Here is a long list of evidence for the war on women that you don't believe it's happening.http://www.politicususa.com/proof-war-women-2But I'm sure you have no desire to read the long lists on that page and verify whether what they are saying is true or not.

Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.

If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!

Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.

Which is what makes this thread so amusing. In a depressing way. :S

Didn't you hear? There's a war on woman going on or some shit. At least that's what the left keeps spouting.

Julio wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 05:07:If the feminazis want gaming their way, put their money where their mouths are and only buy games that show women as better than men, and they can virtually bobbitt all the men they want.

If you chant straw-man really loudly maybe a real man made of straw will appear!

Bludd wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 10:02:Holy shit there's a lot of crap in this thread, and a lot of it proves TFA's point.

Overon wrote on Dec 27, 2012, 02:01:I have a novel idea, rather than speculating on why women don't go to LAN parties, I think it would be better to ask them in an environment where they can say what they really think freely without fear or intimidation or any other social pressure.

Why don't you enlighten me on what you think the reasons are.

Personally I am way less interested in the fact that none of them wanted to participate at a LAN party than I am in the fact that they still don't play those games in the privacy of their own homes. So I'd say it has way less to do with social pressure than a general lack of interest in hardcore gaming.

Overon wrote on Dec 26, 2012, 13:06:Game makers can do what they want, but if they want to appeal to women, half the population, then they can do far better than they are doing now.

Games are misogynistic overall. They perpetuate stereotypes more often than not, and don't challenge people's fixed beliefs in general. Games can be more than what they are now. Books can be controversial, they can challenge people's fixed beliefs and so far, games have not been generally able to do this.

"Gaming", in general is akin to books and you find games of all variety from tabletop or board games to casual video games to 3D Shooters and many others. 3D shooters are generally misogynistic because they are the paperback romance novels of the computer world. You wouldn't be arguing that paperback novels should try to reach a broader audience would you. Certainly there are books of all type, and there are games of all types. Some games have found their nitch among boys, some among men, some among girls and some among women. There is plenty of cross-over, but just as most books and movies appeal to a limits demographic so will games continue to do so.