Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial

Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial is an award winning NOVA documentary on the case of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, which concentrated on the question of whether or not intelligent design could be viewed as science and taught in school science class. It aired in on PBS in November 2007 and features interviews with the judge, witnesses, and lawyers as well as re-enacted scenes (no cameras were allowed in court).

The documentary was praised by Nature, and described as accurate by the National Center for Science Education. Variety magazine also gave the documentary a positive review, and said it was one of the year’s most important television projects, that "should be shown not just in every U.S. high school but in houses of worship as well."

In contrast to the positive reception the film has been given, creationist and intelligent design supporters have criticized the documentary. The Discovery Institute produced a website critical of the broadcast. Answers in Genesis claimed the evidence for evolution presented by scientists in Judgment Day was fallacious. The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) also claimed the film was not balanced. WKNO-TV, the local PBS affiliate in Memphis decided not to air the documentary because of the "controversial nature" of the subject, but has since promised to broadcast it in 2008.

Darwin's theory of evolution isn't even a good theory; it shouldn't be taught as "Gospel truth"! It has some many holes, and whole swarm of mutating mud-skippers could walk right rough it!

This is extremely one-sided against creationism. God forgive us.

And yes, creationism is a very valid theory based on the facts and complexity of life itself. Even with all our scientific abilities, we can't even make a virus let alone a whole world of infinite variety, fully formed and perfect.

Lisa O

Excellent documentary. I disagree with Charles B that the film is extremely one-sided. I thought they did a very good job of providing both sides of the argument. It would be difficult to have no slant at all, because the side against intelligent design as scientific theory lost. Had that side won, the slant may have been different.

In addition, if the filme seems to be against creationism being taught in school, it is probably because the evidence supports that view. While I have no problem with questioning Darwin's theory of evolution, it is the best theory we have. It has held up for years of testing and questioning. Questions regarding the theory must be approached scientifically, not religiously.

If a person wants to approach the origin of life in a religious manner, it does not belong in science class. If science can support the religious view, of course, that could be discussed. I thought the film was very thorough.

I'm not sure if Charles B watched the entire film. The reasons why his argument for creationism are not valid, are explained. Maybe he just didn't understand. Why watch a film without an open mind?

Charles B.

Lisa O: Evolution is taught as religion in school; I was there and I remember. I was angry when I grew up and ound out it was all based on conjecture, theory, and some out-right fraud as well. They've made entire missing links from one pigs tooth and made artwork of all kinds to depict our evolution from a skull that was purposely used to defraud. Even after the above mentioned errors, the artwork remains. Lucy's skeleton was incomplete, so they found the parts they needed a little way down and put them together. That's not science, that's falsification of the facts. It has not held up for years of "testing and questioning" because there are no fossil to support it. All are perfect creatures in full perfect form; No missing links anywhere have been found, and there should be billions of missing links to be found if evolution is correct.

Evolution is not scinentific "Fact" nor is it a proven theory from fossile records of any kind anywhere in any way. Intelligent design is a valid concept that should be given as an equal theory as balance. Evolution IS religion for the Atheisists; if you don't belive that, then you haven't talk with many of them as any evidence to the contrary is quickly and decisively hidden from examination, not explored or studied.

Just like your assessment of the 2012 material, you didn't read my post clearly as you said the documentary didn't contain that material I mentioned. My first post was over the summery as I said, not the documentary. Did you make a mistake, or not read the whole comment?

Charles B.

Lisa O: I've concidered watching this documentary again, but I know myself, my mind will not change. It would only make me angry all over again. I think what I feel so strongly about is the fact that evolution is taught as fact not theory in schools across the country, and I suffered for it personally. I would have embrassed a teacher telling me there was another option right away, I think.

I was spoonfed that crap for years, and I even believed that my own father's lips were "evolving" little by little to fit the Pepsi bottle that he drank from (he had huge lips and still does) and that black people were closer to monkeys than white people because they looked more like the pictures in our class textbooks.

I was so angry and very upset when I learned that I had been lied to about evolution and how baseless it really was. I met a Christian plalentologist who showed pictures of a single petrified tree spanning several different sedimentary rocks that others say took millions of years to form. He also showed pictures of man made objects found in layers of material before "man" was supposed to have even evolved. He talked about the unreliablity of carbon dating, and the utter ubserdity of evolution from a "natural selection" standpoint, because nothing works until it all works perfectly. He was an evolutionist until he became a palentologist and then he realized he was wrong and then became a Christian.

The petrified forest has been proven that it didn't take millions of years to form, but only a 2 at most as Mt. St. Helen's and spirit lake domonstrated how the Petrified Forest was made. This was confirmed by the rootlessness of both the Mt. Saint Helen trees sanding strait up and down in the mud at the bottom of Spirit Lake and the same tree in the Petrified forest at different leyers also being rootless where they were copped off and pushed into the water. The reason that they are at different leyers is that some being heaver because of more dirt or more roots sank faster and the lighter ones a year or two later. But, one Christian scientist maked the rings of all the trees in the petrified forest and proved they were from the same era, not one forest destroyed hundreds of years before another and then another over millions of years. Yet, did this make national news? No. Anything that goes against tradtional evolution and the millions of years theory is ingnored, and if it can't be ignored, it's buried.

My famiy was a blue collar low education one where neither mom nor dad even finished middle school level, so they didn't know I was being foodfed this crap theory at school, and I barely escaped with my soul!

You can teach math, reading, writing, and even history (somewhat) as fact, but to teach evoltion as "fact" is just plain evil. How many young lives have been pursuaded towards dispare for believing in such as "scientific fact"? It wasn't until I realized I had been lied to for meny years that I found meaning for my life in faith in Christ; I can tell you this, believing that science proved we came from monkeys brought no joy to my soul. In fact it nearly made me a racist (to some extent) and I had little value for human life (or any life) believing such. It shouldn't be taught to kids. If university students want to study the theory, fine, but not elementary kids. It's a lie and it's taught as fact with on alternatiives. Shameful!

Just a very funny note to my story: When I was in college, I had a black roommate strait out of Africa. We got to talking, and I told him about my past belief that black people were less evolved because they were dark like the monkeys. He laughed and said, "I thought the same thing about white people." I said, "Why?" He relied that monkeys come in many colors, black, brown, red and even white, but all monkeys are hairy! Looking at me and then looking at him, I thought, "You clever boy! That's really funny, because obviously my distant ancesstor was "Bigfoot" himself!" ;-) :-) ;-)

Charles B.

P.S. Sorry for all my type-o's! I had A LOT! I'm rushing between classes. Anyway, Lids o: I have concluded that I am open minded, but I need not be so "open minded" that my brains fall out! :-) Please do consider another assessment of your "excellent" and well-done documentary.

Christian Lindh

Excellent documentary.

imfromnature

@Charles B. Darwin is "theory" not "fact." Even though I was taught evolution, I was also taught the difference between scientific fact and scientific theory. Theories are up for debate. If creationism has to be taught in school as science, then so shall Greek mythology be known as science.

And you sadly been misinformed about layers, fossils, and carbon dating. Your Christian paleontologist is obviously twisting facts to push religion, and I know what facts he is trying to twist. So many creationist still used debunked debunking like the Ray Comfort's banana. Also, Darwin doesn't say we evolved from monkeys, creationist exaggerated "common ancestor."

You imply that you just needed meaning in your life, that's why you blindly went to religion, because coming from monkeys is too sad for you. And saying evolution is evil and made you racists just makes you a sad racist. Implying evolutionist or atheist are sad and have no morals just makes you close-minded.

Charles B.

imfromnature:

An evolutionist has absolutely no argument to say that we are all equal as humans or otherwise, only the creationists. Those who do not love and follow God logically contend that one group can be greater than another based on genetics. Hitler's philosophies sound pretty good from an "evolutionary" standpoint, don't you think? I am far from a racist as I understand that we are created by God in His likeness, one and all.

Similarly, evolution and "morals" are not logical companions. Who gave you your sense of right and wrong? To whom do you answer? Society? That's not a constant. Evolution logically means there are no right or wrongs, ever. Murder or any other "evil" thing is not evil if there is no God to say it is. I on the other hand answer to God; never changing, righteous, Almighty God.

And "Yes" evolution is evil as it's used for solely evil purposes. It was a theory developed nearly solely to devoid the world of God, and therefore accountability to God; and THAT is evil.

Nielsch

Yes, the theory of Darwin has got a few minor gaps, but it still beats: "Pooof..!! And suddenly everything was there, created by a wizard..."

Unbelievable, to state something like that personifies the definition of a gap. The teachers that refused to 'preach' this pseudoscience believe, should receive a big medal for protecting young and influential minds for this crap..!

imfromnature

@Vlatko, Great comment. Guess I was just trying to say that the theory of evolution can be improved.

@Charles B. Can you be more offensive? Again another God-fearing prejudice person explains how people are immoral because they dont believe in God. And you are worse by saying people who believe in evolution are evil. Have you read the Bible, the book that talks about your god? He sure loves killing, sacrifices, and hating women. Good thing society isnt a constant, otherwise would still be burning people on stakes. And I answer to no one, but myself.

Have you ever seen a primitive animal, one that has never been to church or read any religious or scientific text, protect it's young? Why would an animal care about its young if it didnt learn any morals? Some people know how to rely on natural instinct and emotion. Even the most primitive tribes that no nothing about religion, have their own morals.

"Evolution logically means there are no right or wrongs, ever." I cant believe someone would even use such horrible deductive reasoning. It has nothing to do with morality. And the evolution was created from finding out truths, not to fight religion. They just happen to not agree with each other.

imfromnature

And Charles B. Cant believe I forgot to talk about your first paragraph, although some of it was already covered. Hitler was a big believer in God and creationism. Thanks for showing how an unfit belief system can kill many many lives, but we already knew that from years of historical evidence. You have this insecurity issue about people being better than others, something else that brings people to a "fair" god. Who is to say what and who is better based on genetics? If a species evolved with bigger muscles, it makes them better at lifting heavy objects, not better in general. If one species has 20/20 vision and another is almost blind, one will be better at seeing objects. People are different, that doesnt make them better or worse. I dont see God making everyone exactly the same.

Achems Razor

Charles B:

Even though I am white I do not mind saying,it does not matter what color we are now. According to our DNA, and predominant Genes, we all came out of Africa!

So if there is a God and we are made in his/her image then God must be Black!

:D

Charles B.

To all: I've made the mistake of not just sharing my faith and ideas and opinions here, but also my heart on these threads. I most likely shall not comment any longer unless it is in the most bland of ways.

Vlatko: Thank you again for your great website. I've seen Sagan's Cosmos documentary, but I didn't know it was a whole series. I know the universe is vast; as as eternal beings with an eternal God we shall have no limit of time or space or ability eventually to know and understand all, and perhaps even visit and see all. That is why the universe is so vast, for the eventual eternal benefit of those that love and please God for the ages to come eternally. Each one of us are immeasurably special to God; I sincerely hope that you allow Him to be immeasurably special to you as well sooner rather than later. Might you still consider embedding the links I sent you by e-mail?

With Gratitude,

Charles B.

HaTe_MaChInE

@Charls B.

Never stop questioning a theory that you do not believe. But to convince the more sceptical of us you need to quote more then one book.

@ Vlatko
I will disagree and say that all science is questioned on a regular bases. The most notable scientists usually have a common trait of not accepting anything as "fact". Most of Newtons and Einstein findings have actually been found very inaccurate(or only accurate in some cases). The "law of Gravity" is in fact being changed as we speak.

The glory of science is that no one is mad that current "laws" are being challenged. In fact, anyone that can prove that such changes need to be made are usually awarded with great prestige and riches(Noble prize, university chairs, grants etc). To insert a "sudo-science" into the midsts of these great discoveries and discovers is insulting. To try to tell these people that 200 years of work by thousands of people is no better than the "idea" of intelligent design is insulting. To force children to be exposed to such an idea causes aggression.

I quote
7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Options:
1) pi is actually 3
If so we need to change all the text books because we are teaching our children an inaccurate theory of math.

2) "round all about" means it was not perfectly round
If so I can start changes other meanings of the bible to fit to what I "know" is correct.

3) assume that is is just a story and not dwell on whether is it 100% factually but focus on the point of the story...

So I say unto all you heathens that reduce pi to less then 3...
John 5:31:If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.
John 8:14:Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid.

Charles B.

Hate-Machine: Thank you for the encouragement to follow my convictions; that was decent of you. Having a nearly solely decenting voice anywhere is difficult at best. I think I'll just watch the nature docs and leave it that.

Achems Razor

Come on Charles B.

Don't give up! It seems people are testing your faith on these threads.
You are holding your own with all us Atheists, and other religions after you. And I enjoy your comments, even if we disagree most of the time, so what! it is still a learning experience for both of us and probably everybody else.

:D

Charles B.

Achems Razor: Ok. It's a difficult task as I do have strong opinions, but so much of who I am is very non-tangible. There is a spiritual aspect to life that is hard to argue for with atheists.

The fossil record is helpful to understand how life has been in ages past, but it's very much up to interpretation. Even Darwin pondered why there aren't many countless forms of intermediate animals in various states of evolutionary change. Just as today, they come and they go in the fossil record virtually unchanged. Classic evolution has no answers for that puzzle of the missing millions of fossil forms.

Why the existing fossils aren't mixed better in the layers of rock is something I have to research more myself. I suspect is has much to do with the world-wide flood of Noah's time.

I also need to answer in a satisfactory way how old the earth is, why, and if there is a gap in time between the creation of the materials of the earth and the time of Adam and Eve. Is there a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, if and why? It's plausible that there is.

It would make me extremely happy if someday they find a modern man fossilized with T-Rex teeth embedded in his skull and claw marks in his back, with a stomach full of trilobites wearing a leopard skin coat with an eagle claw necklace! One can only hope.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

I'll just add what Carl Sagan once said. I find it very profound: We have arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces. We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.

I find it very strange that Creationists in their everyday life heavily depend on Science and Technology but still they are trying to refute or debunk some theories offered by Science. So they'll use computer, drive car, sit on a chair but in the same time they will say "No, Evolution and Big Bang are BS".

So it turns out that they have no problem with Science in general but only with some of the parts. They only have problem with parts that are confronting the Bible. For example Evolution says that life forms are created spontaneously over great span of time and the "death" in literal meaning is a way of life on Earth. And that is a big problem for Creationists because it goes against the Bible where it's said that one creator created everything in 6 days. Also the Big Bang implies spontaneous creation of the universe instead of intelligent design.

So I'm questioning my self why they don't spend their time to find bugs and bogus evidence in all other theories and benefits of Science and Technology, but they stick only to debunking Evolution and Big Bang. Because everything else more less will not confront the Bible, or Religion in general.

I turns out that 90% of the scientists in the world made a plot, some kind of conspiracy, and they are feeding the world with these "lies" about Evolution and Big Bang. I'm wondering how it can be so? Creationist will say that money is involved, reputation and so on and now they can't afford to say that these theories are not valid anymore. But that is also very strange and hard to believe. Scientists are not only stationed in USA. They are all around the world. Do you think that some science faculty in Russia will not publish thorough science work for invalidating the Theory of Evolution and Big Bang because they care that scientific community in USA will loose reputation and money. No they don't care and if they find such evidence they will surely publish that. In fact inside the world's scientific community there is a very hard race and competition who will prove something first and who will disapprove first.

The very Theory of Evolution and Big Bang are on everyday scientific trial and if something looks and sounds suspicious science will be the first who will say that those theories are BS. They will simply not wait some outsider group to tell them that. And that is because science works and relay on scientific method.

Infinity

I am an anomaly, being an Evolutionary Creationist. How does that grab you?. Sound like a contradiction? Think about it.

The big bang theory and evolutionary theory can give a relatively satisfactory mechanisim for the course of life in this Universe. However, spontaneous inflation of an infinitesamely dense microscopic singularity resulting in all that is, without some instigator of the whole process? What existed before the Big Bang? What set it in motion? Can it ever actually be proved beyond any shadow of a doubt? We have only a miniscule part of the whole picture. Of all the known energy forms we decode this reality using less than 0.05% of this, i.e. the electromagnetic spectrum. We are viewing the universe through an inch wide slit on a mile wide window. Yet we have the arrogance to assume that after only a few centuries of modern scientific investigation that we are masters of our environment.Each successive generation on this planet has thought that it was the pinnacle of development and sophistication and we are just repeating that age old formula. We known nothing. We do not even know ourselves.

Science has become just another religion with it's high priests dictating how things are. It is nothing more than the latest in a long line of methods used to corral the human race into seeing itself as meaningless, unworthy pawns of something greater than ourselves. True it explains physical interactions, but as physicallity is an illusion, its just explains the interactions of that illusion.What lies behind the illusion? There is no deep meaningfull truth in it all, just like religion. No man, woman or child can give another truth, it is a personal conviction, gained through experience.

I do not own a bible, nor have i ever read it, nor do i ever intend to. I do not have a personal relationship with "God", Jesus or any other deity, spirit or demon.

Some of what i have said here may come across as contradictory. But we are each a contradiction, as is the Universe. Revel in it, enjoy it, live your life to the fullest and try not to tell others how to live theirs.
Experience.......

Achems Razor

The words Spirituality and Religion are confused.

Spirituality and Religion are not the same thing!
The word Religion is from Latin root word, which means to "bind together", with contemporaneous Religious beliefs, that means they are stuck in old belief systems with no recourse.

You can still have spirituality without a Religious belief system.

We can all be free spirits, or as I prefer, "Entities", and breathe freely.

Science is not a belief system, it is incontrovertible facts and proofs, that are still not etched in stone.

Science has unlimited room for advancement and development. not so any Religions, there is nowhere they can go, except to try to convert more people into their beliefs!

Science and Spirituality can mix, Religion and Science never will!

Gillian

I think that Intelligent design should be a recognised science. But I dont agree with teaching it in schools, it is not the only thing taught in schools that has 'gaps'. the solar model for one.

U can think of science itself as a belief, a belief in facts. What beautiful about science is that we are always finding out more. But a lot of science is just theories, the truth is we dont no wat happened before the Big Bang, we dont no that it was the start of everything. No One has the rite to declare another opinion is wrong... Cos No One Knows The Truth!!

There is so many conflicting views about the world, and if we start teaching contradictions they wont know wat their doin!

I think it should be down to the parents, no matter what you believe, you have a responsiblity to them to give them every angle and let them decide.

I dont have a problem believing both, Evolution itself is beauty set in motion, this was how it was supposed to go.

Gillian

I wrote before I finished the program, forget my comment about it becoming a recognised science, I guess what I mean to say, is I want someone to stand up and say...

"Whats wrong with both??"

(I have a hard time wit inter-species evolution, those bones could be some random animals now extinct. When I see the full set lined up showing me, ill believe it then!)

Tom

Hooray for science!

ane

i don't know if there are many germans around here that might have seen it as well, but i saw a very interesting discussion a while back on german television about just this "fight" about who's right in terms of our origins and development. it was great, there were atheist scientists, but also a lot of religious scientists who said that their belief does not inflict on their work at all. because, as it was mentioned here by someone else earlier, they can still believe in all of science's theories and models, like evolution, as something foreseen and wanted by the god they believe in.
in the end, they also talked to a german bishop and i really liked what he had to say. he said that the bible was written in a time different from ours and that it should not be taken literally, especially regarding the creation part of it. he finished with a quote, which i think fits so nicely. "let the scientists have the earthly, we have something bigger. we have the spiritual." that coming from a bishop of the catholic church, it might be worth considering.

Achems Razor

@infinity:

I do not believe we are a contradiction. We are units of consciousness, in the vast sea of Quantum energy and probabilities.
We are energy Per Se: That collectively coalesce our thoughts and emotions to form our reality.
We live in one vibrational planck time of which there are countless and unlimited multidimensional realities and selves. But I agree with you, it is all an illusion as is space and time. A wondrous tale of our own making.

Charles B.

Vlatko: The Talk Origins website is the best I've ever seen. Extremely impressive and thorough. I've sent an e-mail to the Institute of Creation Research to see if there is anyone with the time, expertise, and ability to analyze the content and hopefully duplicate a format like it on thier website in response.

I didn't however, notice any place where it addressed all the many eveolutionary "hoaxes" from various scientists in the past, nor does it deal with the problems of scientific assumptions that are "leaps of faith" but have no foundation for thier belief systems with imperical evidence, but then the site is set up to refute Creationism, not evolution. LOL.

I wish I myself only had the time and credentials and ability to create a thorough investigation and response website. Whereas I thought some of the logic on a few of the arguments was flawed (such as the creation of complexity via evolutionary means being possible such as the ear/eye/etc.), it basically comes down to what you place your faith in: evolution or God. Ultimately it's just that simple.

Thanks for the link. :-)

Charles B.

Jock

I'm struck by the fact that all the people who argue against Darwin, at least on this site, seem to believe that Christianity is the *only* religion, or at least the only one that counts. Don't they know that folk in the east were giving such matters thought long before Christianity appeared -- and perhaps Judaism too? It seems to me to be monstrous arrogance (or ignorance) to think otherwise. Take Hinduism (or Vedantism), for example. It includes a sophisticated cosmology which shows that much more thought was given by them to the nature of creation than the early Hebrews who gave us the Old Testament accounts ever did. They, the Vedic scribes, wrote that the universe went through four phases, one of creation, followed by one of preservation, then one of decay. During the last phase the universe ceased to exist until after an unimaginable number of years a new creation occurred. They almost anticipated modern scientific thinking and the Big Bang theory, which science seems to be rethinking a bit, and starting to wonder what preceded the Big Bang. So when I hear people state that Darwin's theories are against religion, I think they mean against Christianity. They could possibly be Jewish or Muslims, since they have common roots with Christianity, but I personally have never heard any of the arguers against evolution identify themselves as such.

Ambrose Bierce, with his tongue firmly in his cheek, defined scripture as; "The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."

Kcin

All view points on subjects should be taught. Right or wrong, let people figure it out for themselves.

Tom

Kcin? Saying something is too complicated for us to understand is not a scientific theory plain and simple. We don't further the understanding of our world and the universe by telling everyones views, we do it from years of testing and examining these theories. Just like the theory that the earth was flat and we were the centre of the universe was proven wrong and are therefore not taught in schools and universities. We cannot teach these to people because they are false but if you told a group of children without having the tools for them to "figure it out for themselves," they would not know what to believe.

Some theories are easier to prove than others, some require billions of dollars of equipment to prove and spending lifetimes investigating to come to the conclusions. Most people cannot figure those more arbitrary theories out without spending countless years on them and that is why scientist compile information into books for young people to read.
Please don't allow this flimsy and religious crap to be taught to our influential children. Think for yourself but don't let wisdom and knowledge go out the window!

Talia

if you don't blind yourself with religion, it is simple to see the relation between humans and all living matter. our body is a mass of energy from the Atom, to a Cell and so on, Primates(or monkeys) are just Belonging SPECIES of the HOMO SAPIENS(humans),we share similar DNA. 200,000 years ago we were too primitive (not monkeys) and it is sad to see that some have not Develop their brains yet to understand the simple relationship we have with all living things.

Tim

Talia, primates are not species of homo sapiens. I think you meant it the other way around.

Cheeku

I really enjoyed reading all the comments posted here. Thanks a lot people for your time. Vlatko, your research is really laudable. Infinity, I agree with your view point to a certain extent. Charles, you are a firm believer and I wish you all the best.

Personal opinion:
Scientific theories try to explain the working of universe with certain initial assumptions. Whereas, religion binds a group of people together and supports their emotional or spiritual needs. Unfortunately, there are areas that overlap in science and religion and the view points offered by each are complete opposites. Care should be taken to separate those overlapping regions and carefully examine them.

People should not go on a frenzy attacking either science or religion because they cater to different needs altogether.
Its like saying an apple is better than an aeroplane.
They are for two different purposes altogether.

Change is constant and so both science and religion have to evolve.

Tim

Wise and refreshing words, Cheeku.

Capricious

Vlatko - Thank you very much for your correction of Charles B. You saved me a lot of typing.

Yavanna

GREAT DOC! I cannot imagine how anyone can be stupid enough to endorse intelligent design when an entire legal system does battle and refutes it. A poison that is detestable and moronic indeed.

Jock

My view for all it's worth ...

It's not stupidity that makes people cling to Creation Science Yavanna, it's fear. They're afraid of death. They want to be immortal and they believe Bible promises that, and only the Bible as far as they know. Consequently, anything that threatens the Bible is deeply threatening to them. They're wrong of course, and needlessly afraid. It's not only the Bible that asserts this. All the major religions, in one or other of their forms, deal with an afterlife -- and not only the old religions. Belief in immortality keeps getting reborn.

Arguably the oldest religion that believes in immortality is Hinduism. It holds that immortality is not the reward for a good life. Rather, we are reborn -- or reincarnated time and time again until -- if I understand it properly -- we get life right. Our reward then is to become one with the Supreme Being.

Islam, in the Koran, has a heaven in terms of an oasis metaphor, one which would appeal strongly to desert nomads. It's been criticized as appealing to men only, but I have a woman Muslim friend who believes that there's a rewarding place for her there. She further believes that there is a particularly nasty part of hell reserved for particularly evil folk such as Hitler. One might hope that she's right, for as she says, without that there's no justice. I'm inclined to think that that's wishful thinking, but then again -- who knows?

Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama, the original historical one, since according to Indian scriptures, there has been and will be many Buddhas) only concerned himself with what happens between birth and death.

Essentially he said that we should be kind to one another. The reward, according to him, was entering Nirvana, which some scholars have interpreted as 'Heaven', although the more common interpretation has been earthly bliss. It would certainly be a much better world if everyone followed his advice. Many people do of course -- and usually without thought of reward. I'm frequently astonished at the many kindnesses shown to undeserving me.

And, of course, Jesus repeated this. He went even further and said 'Love thine enemy.', although he promised heavenly bliss, not earthly.

But there are Buddhist sects that also promise heaveny bliss. One example is Nembutsu, the Japanese name for what's known in English as Pure Land Buddhism, practised widely in Asia. According to it, there was a Buddha known as Amitabha who lived eons before Siddhartha, who took a vow that he would not enter Nirvana -- the Pure Land (i.e. Paradise or Heaven) until all who invoked his name would do so also. Since he is assumed to have entered the Pure Land, it's believed that all who utter 'Namu Amida Butsu' (Japanese for 'Hail Buddha Amitabha') in good faith will also go to Heaven. This partly explains why the Japanese who observe Shinto rituals for many life events, often have Buddhist funerals.

And religions that believe in immortality are still being created, especially in Japan. An example is Kofuku-no-Kagaku, in English, Happy Science. Begun in 1986 and considered a Buddhist sect, it incorporates ideas from Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Hindu teachings -- and of course, science. The founder, who claims to be a reincarnation of Buddha, says that: 'The truth is: Death is not the end but just a beginning to life in the "Real World." At the end of our life, we go to the spirit world and continue to live there.' Although regarded with some suspicion in Japan, it has grown rapidly and has spread worldwide, including to North America.

Then there's native American spirituality and indigenous African religions. But there's not space enough for those here.

I personally would not have too many problems with people believing in Creation 'Science' if that was all there was to it. By itself it seems a pretty harmless delusion. Trouble is that many believers in my experience are Bible literalists and consequently cling to dangerous prejudices, such as anti-Semitism (both anti-Jewish and anti-Arab), homophobia, xenophobia, anti-black, anti-Catholic and anti-anyone who doesn't see everything with their distorted view. Take for example the death threats received by the judge in the Dover trial.

Some Christians!

Education is the only remedy that I can see. The United States public in particular (though it's not the only one) needs to learn an awful lot more about the rest of the world -- that people all over the world, though with different colors, beliefs and customs, share the same hopes, dreams -- and fears.

Incidentally, although science doesn't have all the answers, and never will since knowledge (which is what science means, after all) has no limit, I don't agree that the sole and only alternative is to resort to the folklore, from thousands of years ago, of a small tribe of desert nomads, passed from mouth to mouth for countless years before they learned to write. And when this material was finally edited two thousand years ago, the editors had to make arbitrary decisions between the many conflicting versions they were faced with, and with what they should leave out entirely. Sometimes they chickened out by leaving in contradicting versions. For one example, compare Genesis I with Genesis II. A further complication was the difficulty in translating ancient Hebrew and Aramaic texts (much without vowels or punctuation) and Greek ones into the English that creationists and advocates of intelligent design say we should take literally. Then furthermore, there are scholars who come up with widely different translations still, especially of the older texts.

Really, the only alternative is more and better knowledge. That means looking ahead, not backwards.

Perhaps I should make my own position clear. I do not believe that we got here by intelligent design. I neither believe nor disbelieve in life after death. I'm prepared to wait and see. All I'm trying to do with this screed is draw attention to some of the many views on the afterlife that so many people all over the world sincerely believe in -- without believing in creationism at the same time, and with as much or as little reason as people believe in the Christian one. I'm inclined personally to think that death will mean oblivion. But I may be wrong, and lots and lots of people, all around the world would say that I am. Anyway, if I wake up and find myself surprised in a spirit world, I just hope that I'm not sharing it with Hitler.

And lastly, if I had to be pinned down, I would tend to agree with the opinion held by many Jewish folk that immortality means living on only in our children. In my opinion, that's all that Genesis promises.

Achems Razor

Jock:

I enjoyed your thread, I do not usually read long threads word for word,
usually just skim, but yours held my attention.

You mentioned might be oblivion. My belief is there is no oblivion, and if there was, how are you to know. It is not tangible. It is not a thing.

Before you came on this Earth, do you remember any oblivion? For a conscious being there is no definition for oblivion, There is only the now, period.

Yavanna

Jock! Nice essay - (A minus...)

Whilst I agree with the majority of what you say I have to disagree with the original opinion:

I have to disagree with you there. I`ve known many people of most religions and the last thing they are afraid of is death. In fact it could be said it's what they "live" for, even pray for in certain instance. Some cant seem to wait!

I don't really think it is fear of anything other than having their false reality exposed. The comfort of an omnipotent parent being stripped away. My point about stupidity is that you can be extremely intelligent but still be stupid. Some religious scholars for example are extremely intelligent and well educated; however are stupid because they devote their lives to a nonsense.

Most "creationists" of whatever religion are indoctrinated from birth. They have no chance to work out for themselves a version of their own reality. In effect they have been "stupidified." Even those that later work out that the creation stories are bogus still cling on to those beliefs. Some do change faith or go agnostic; the majority just find more and ever more ridiculous ways to justify their beliefs. For to otherwise yield to common sense (and science) would mean they have to completely rethink everything! This I believe is what they fear most and why MANY are praying for a fast Armageddon.

josken

I am truly sorry to comment here without reading all of the comments made here. But i would just like to say, the word theory is misinterpreted (as someone stated above). And i can't understand why this even has to be debated. I mean a child (in the womb) has a tail after a couple of weeks... You think god just did that for show? We have a cell and energy system that is almost the same for most of the species.

And for charles B. i would just want to say that maybe this is the answer to how everything came to be and not how it was created. I mean science can only go back till the big bang where something came from nothing. Maybe God did that part?

This is the big difference between science and religion. Religion is based on faith and has to be correct 100% of the time or people loose faith. So you can't adapt to new findings because of a book that some guy has written 2000 years ago. Science gives you correct answers and if you don't get correct answers you know you where wrong. The difference being that when science is wrong it is good because it means progress. Religion on the other hand will always be stubborn and not admit their mistake.

(as with every other discussion we have had) I don't hold it against you that you believe something different than me. I just find faith dangerous because it keeps people dumb (opium for the people). I'd rather think about what people are doing than just have faith in them doing the right thing...

Jock

Well, Yavanna and Achems Razor I seem to have kicked over a hornet's nest. But thank you both for your kind words.

Let me deal with Achems Razor first. We seem to be getting into metaphysics here. Or perhaps semantics. Perhaps what I refer to as oblivion you would refer to as unconciousness.

I'm not sure that we agree about things having to be tangible to be real. Music isn't tangible (i.e. we can't touch it), but it's real enough. We can perceive it with another of our senses.

Then there's what's referred to variously as religious experiences, epiphanies, transcendence, sense of the numinous, or enlightement ... awareness of another dimension, beyond the reach of words. It is definitely not tangible. That's not a reason to stop people trying to express it, though. Music is an example. Poetry another. Art another still. I've been moved by all of these at different times, and the experience each time was real enough – to me at least.

I've had the experience in theater of a singer being met with absolute silence for over five seconds at the end of his song. Clearly the whole audience was moved by it as much as I was. The other night on television I heard the tenor Richard Margison being interviewed about his career and talking about similar experiences fron the other side of the footlights. And I have a musician friend who's told me about having that kind of experience also. Wouldn't you agree that these are all real? They were real enough to them.

There's nothing new about this. I gather the literature of Christian saints, going back centuries, has many descriptions of similar experiences, usually after long meditation. In their case they often describe it as being in the presence of someone or something beyond God.

Then going to the other side of the world, the goal of Zen training (usually in meditation) is satori, the Japanese word for enlightenment. And you don't have to be Japanese to experience it either. There's a book by the present day Catholic nun Elaine MacInnes who spent a number of years in Japan, and who underwent Zen training, and achieved satori.

I won't even attempt to describe what it was like for her. I recommend you read her book. It's called 'Zen Comtemplation – A Bridge of Living water.' I found it fascinating.

But I will say that her experience, and art and music appreciation, plus those of the saints is not reached by any kind of intellectual process, but rather an intuitive one.

Getting back to oblivion, I had an experience two years ago that I would describe as oblivion. I was living on my own at the time and collapsed, for unkown reasons, and lay unconscious on the floor from some time on Wednesday, which ws the last time anyone heard from me, until Saturday when my friends, who had been getting increasingly anxious about me, fnally persuaded the cops to get into the house and summon paramedics. I'm told I nearly didn't make it But I have no recollection of it at all. None. Absolutely none. Nor of the first week or so in intensive care

I suppose this could be fairly described as a near-death experience, but I went through none of the things that other people describe. It's just a complete blank -- a total gap in my life for the best part of two weeks. Although I would describe it as oblivion, another word might seem to you to be a better fit. Be my guest.

And as I said before, I may be dead wrong (excuse the pun) about what happens after death.

Yavanna

That's completely unfair!!!! Where's my bloody essay?

Achems Razor

@ Jock:

All those things you where describing to me, like music, poetry, art, epiphanies etc: etc: are as real as real can be, you do not have to touch them for them to be real, just as ideas are real. I can only put it in one way, they are fluctuations in the Quantum world that are either realized or not, and that is not metaphysics, that is science.

Your brain which is picking all that up has to be conscious for everything to be viable. When you hear music it is made by air waves that reach your inner ear and those are all things, that have substance. Etc:etc:

You pointed out you had a blank spot in your life when you where out, but you still had body conscious.
When your temporal conscious re-entered you woke up, but did not remember anything.

The same with oblivion, you could be out for say ten million years. But time means nothing. There would be no time, not even a planck second.

What I was getting at there is no oblivion, either you are here, or you are not here. But you only know when you are here.

Jock

Here it is Yavanna. Patience!

You're absolutely right, Yavanna. I used a generality when I should have been specific. Sorry. Yes, some people seem to have a death wish. They take unnecessary chances with dangerous situations, making me wonder just how many unrecognized depressive illnesses there are. But, correct me if I'm wrong. I think you're talking about the “Rapture” folk.

And you're quite right when you say that very intelligent people can be stupid too, depending on what they're dealing with. The lawyers on the “Intelligent Design” side of the Dover trial were clearly very smart. But they had a blind spot or two when it came to evolution and the Bible.

I had the misfortune of working for one like them. I don't know how I could forget. He was an extremely clever man, which is all that showed when he was interviewing me. In fact he had the quickest mind of just about anyone I've come across. But once I began working for him I discovered he was a Christian in capital letters and in particular thought that an individual's illness must be due to some sin he'd committed. He and I didn't last long.

I agree with that except for the word “Most”, but that may be since I've come across a different sample of the population than you. (Or perhaps just live in a different part of the world.) And the ones I know best don't even try to justify their beliefs. They just dogmatically stick to them, and simply refuse to think or to discuss them. I don't think they're praying for a fast Armageddon either. I've got a relative who was brought up as a Presbyterian (as I was), says it's the only true religion, and thanks God for every day he's alive. And he's quite openly anti-Semitic and anti-gay. He's not all that keen on black people either.

Somehow I seem to have manged to escape the fate you describe.

Jock

@ Achems Razor

This is far to deep for me. Sorry!

Achems Razor

@ Jock:

That's okay Jock. Not everybody can understand what I say.

Yavanna

Jock

The flip side of the coin is that quite often atheists can be really stupid. Creationists don't always corner the market on that. Not a dig at anyone in this particular discussion....

Jock

@Yavanna:

"The flip side of the coin is that quite often atheists can be really stupid. Creationists don’t always corner the market on that. Not a dig at anyone in this particular discussion…."

Well, I hope not me, at least, although I'm guilty of really dumb things from time to time. In any case, I don't know what the hell I am. I've never found a description that fits. I have a couple of times been called the Antichrist, but I don't really believe I deserve that honor.

Otherwise agreed!

Here are some definitions of Atheism (and the opposite) if it's any help:

Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.

—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary

Three-quarters of the American population literally believes in religious miracles. The numbers who believe in the devil, in resurrection, God does this and that — astonishing. These are numbers that you have nowhere in the industrial world.

—Noam Chomsky

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool, shun him.

-Persian Proverb

Shugga

Science, it's an absolute truth people, when are you going to learn that the ONLY thing in this world that matters when it comes to the asking of questions, is that you can gain a truthful answer for it, by testing the principles of the question, and having the results of those tests peer-reviewed and confirmed before you proclaim it to be a truth.

In Religion in general, there is NO asking of ANY question to begin with, since every answer there could possibly be is written down by a few LYING writers a few decades ago. Now I don't mean they deliberately conceived a lie, I believe they, as did the Vikings, as did the Greeks, conceived a general motif, if you will, a new, smooth interpretation of what they believed to be the most logical conclusion about the origins of life.

In essence, what Religion is CONSTANTLY doing, is taking this giant document containing some sort of pseudo-scientific excuse for an explanation, which has been refuted time and time again, and does NOT compute with rational thinking in ANY way. It takes that document, and just says, well, we like it fine this way, so up yours, we're just going to leave it at that.

Now if you like puzzles, just try this one, I promise you, there's a VERY clear logic in the above equation, all you have to do is decipher 1 or 2 key elements.

I'm interested which side of the debate gets it first :)

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

But wait a minute Shugga. Don't you agree that science began before religion.

The invention of the first stone tool, man made fire and the wheel were the beginning of the scientific thought and that was far before any religion appeared.

I think the key point here is the vast gap between what science achieved to this date and how people know so little about it. In one end we have developed technology and understanding of the universe and on the other and we have 95% of the people on the planet who absolutely don't know how all that works due to the lack of education and capability to wonder about the world around them.

That's why a I agree with what Carl Sagan said:

"We arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."

"We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology."

Shugga

Vlatko, you ar absolutely right sir,

However, my statement was purely about the devolpment section of 2 phenomenon, indeed science is as old as the world, and religion is not.

Sagan was brilliant, and so are you for giving us this site, great job. So I take it your either agnostic or atheist yourself?

Yavanna

Mostly he is absent lately - What you been up to V?

Achems Razor

@ Shugga:

I guess what you mean about religion is that it is on a loop, circular.

Since "For" means loop, and "Fir" means finite impulse response. And "Fo" is input. "Fdc" means perfect or mint. "Fem1"and Fem2" are analysis, the answer should be Fem3"
more analysis. Ad: infinity.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

@Shugga
I don't consider myself as atheist nor as agnostic. And of course I'm not a religious person either.

Science can't really give all the answers and probably it will never will. Religion as it is now (except Zen) is organized outdated dogma and I can't recognize myself there.

@Yavanna
How it's going sir? I've been on a trip last week thus I couldn't spent so much time on the site. Time is an interesting phenomenon. There is never enough of it. TDF was on autopilot... and I want to get hold on to making a new site about lectures. Just in the process of brainstorming now. It will go slowly but hopefully it will happen.

@Achems Razor
I bet you goggled the solution of the equation. :)

Cheers.

Achems Razor

@Vlatko:

Yes, and it took forever, step by step.

My Brain hurts!

Shugga

@Achems Razor

You did it dude, the correct answer is FE3 to the Infinite power.

Very well done, and pretty decent timing too, impressive sir!

Shugga

The principle of my equation, is that it proves the following;

Static information will always lack progression, yet the very strange and paradoxical conclusion to the equation tells us that information that is static, is in fact constantly moving, in an infinite loop.

The next step in my work is finding the mathematical equations that prove to us how this loop behaves. because if static can in fact be infinite, then it seems very plausible that this loop has dynamic probability, the question remains, how does time affect this loop?

As you may have noticed, i'm currently working on a very experimental way to apply fixed mathematics to patterns that have always been perceived as abstract, hence the flow/substance of information/emotions.

Anyone interested can ask Vlatko for my Emailadres, and get in touch, ONLY serious messages please, I dont want to end up explaining mathematics to kids or something :)

Erik

Charles B:
"and the utter ubserdity of evolution from a “natural selection” standpoint, because nothing works until it all works perfectly."
Read Stephen J. Gould's "Not necessarily a wing". It explains how organs and other attributes of an organism can arise through another function or the principle of functional change in structural continuity.

Erik

And honestly Charles B. You blaming evolution theory for being a former racist is really silly... I think there was much more racism back in the days when everyone were christians in the western world than there is now after 200ish years of enlightenment yea?

Erik

Charles B.
November 11th, 2009 at 13:36
"imfromnature:
An evolutionist has absolutely no argument to say that we are all equal as humans or otherwise, only the creationists. Those who do not love and follow God logically contend that one group can be greater than another based on genetics. Hitler’s philosophies sound pretty good from an “evolutionary” standpoint, don’t you think? I am far from a racist as I understand that we are created by God in His likeness, one and all."

No we're not all the same, I'd think that was apparent just by opening your eyes. Equality means equality of worth, not that we are all exactly the same. Obviously some people are more intelligent, faster, longer, smallers, stronger, darker, hairier than others, but I, as an atheist wouldn't hold that against them. I think I have one up on many people I love as far as f.ex. understanding of evolution, that doesn't mean I would think less of them as human beings.

Long story short, I think you are a very unreflected human being, and you becoming a nazi if the proof for evolution was strong enough to convince you is truly a terrifying thought.

Besides the short time of separation between human groups mean that the genetic differences are minuscule and superficial, differences in "intelligence" (a biased term, hence the quotation marks) stems from cultural differences, not biological ones.

Erik

Charles B.
"Similarly, evolution and “morals” are not logical companions. Who gave you your sense of right and wrong? To whom do you answer? Society? That’s not a constant. Evolution logically means there are no right or wrongs, ever. Murder or any other “evil” thing is not evil if there is no God to say it is. I on the other hand answer to God; never changing, righteous, Almighty God."

Given the problem of where morals came from, suggesting that god gave it to us is another cop out. Many age old writings of morals or life-wisdom is older than christianity. Buddha, Konfucius and the greeks had their moral systems, without drawing on God.

I have gotten my sense of right and wrong through what I believe is a mixture of learning from authorities; parents, school, friends, christ?(not the son of god, but a wise man none-the-less) and evolutionary pressures favouring human beings that could function together in a society. This would take some sense of morals and disposal to feelings of sympathy in the human. As a social animal, feelings of care and empathy for others is necessary to prevent disintegration of the pack and later the society.

Now at the state where we, or I am atleast, I can conciously and rationally ponder on these issues I have found that although morals, love and sympathy stem from the factors earlier mentioned, the still have a value in themselves as something beautiful whether they be created by god or by the arbitrary(meaningless?) path of evolution.

Kitty

Thank you for including this on your site. It is comprehensive and thorough, considering it is less than 2 hours in length. New evidence is happening even to this day, just last year, which is still supporting Darwinian natural selection.
Very well done.

Solomon S. Buyco

It is just a fight and survival tactics of the Homos Erectus against Aliens. :o)

Homos Erectus like the Robustus Erectus(black), Gargantus Erectus(white), Australian Erectus(yellow) and the European Erectus(brown)... against the "Serpent" that rules the world of its greedy existence and had been making the world a living hell in process of its science. God must have been cooking something... The return of the Lord every two thousand years?

Anyway, seriously... if you have a job, you'll have to do it well and make it well... but let the truth should always be upon yourself. The river may soon be a sea but we know that it still a body of water. It is just a cloud that escapes gravity for a moment.

Solomon S. Buyco

Error: Australian Erectus are brown and European Erectus are Yellow.

Empathic humanist

Empathy is the true source of moral fibre. Psychopaths do not possess the ability to empathise, and so are void of moral fibre. You do not need to be religious to see the logic behind "do unto others...", that is common sense - empathy in action. The ability to place yourself in someone else's shoes. If you are a psychopath (and 1 in 100 people are psychopathic in the US - it is only a small fraction of psychopaths who feel they need to kill to get what they want. 50% of violent crimes are attributable to psychopaths.) then maybe religion would be a good idea, since you need to be taught right from wrong, as it is not instinctive, and need a selfish reason not to commit crime or do wrong to your fellow man - ie the prospect of Hell.

Solomon S. Buyco

In all of all this, I think they should introduce Intelligent Design to Israel first and find out how it will go... the trouble with my suggestion is, Israel might not accept them as it is as America is not buying them of the reason of logical reasoning... So, thereby, Israel would reject it too...

Anyway, it should have a 'home sweet home' on its own... That is why I suggest it to be in Israel, and on second choice, in the Muslim World, Saudi Arabia.

carpenter

Vlatko I couldn't agree more!
I think religious people are too washed up at church every sunday that they can't recognize the difference between facts vs belife.
Why in the world would you want your kids to learn something based on belife/religion when there are proven facts and evidence in front of you. If you want to teach your kids the earth was created in 6 days then by all means take them to church but it doesn't belong in public school.

steve

To paraphrase " Where blind faith raises its' head, wisdom and reason must flee" Can't remember whose quote that is but he nailed it. God is real but religion has become a twisted disease."I'm going to heaven but your going to hell because you don't believe what I believe." Bullcr*p.

Obsidian

if there was any thing that we had found in science that went against evolution, we could drop the whole matter unfortunately for anyone who is trying to pass creationism off as science, there has not been anything found. just like te theory of gravity, if we found something that destroyed the theory of gravity we would not use it anymore, there has not been any such finding.
to people who ask why not both> its stands to reason, that if something is patently false and misleading, if it requires faith and uses it to attempt to challenge fact, it is of no use and only stands to cause a dilution for the seeking of knowledge. If you cant understand why not> why don"t we teach that the earth is flat along side a helio centric model of the solar system? i think the answer is evident.

http://esmuziq.blogspot.com esmuziq

i dont get it when people say the earth is not older than 10 000 year

what about the dinos ?

http://esmuziq.blogspot.com esmuziq

wgy do they keep on speaking about gaps ..
why do they keep on saying that it is scientific if there is no scientific proof ? ... damn

SteveM

This documentary soundly trounces the Christians as a pack of deceitful bumbling r******, in way over their heads dealing with smart professional experts.

108billy

Evaluation is not theory anymore it is fact.
Intelligent Design is not even science... Not even a small bit of it.

Anthony

Watching the reaction to the Judges decision, both in the Doc and in the comments, from those of the "believers" group, is rather telling.

LisaP

Not knowing anything about ID and being raised only on evolution theory, I found the court room setting a good base to see ID and evolution compared side by side. I will be watching other documentary's on this awesome site about both topics... Knowledge gooood :)

SteveM

CharlesB, Your an enemy of science which makes you a fool.

Spexxy

Wow, a lot being written here on this.

Just would like to say to Charles B: Morality and Evolution don't go hand in hand because evolution is a completely different topic. One can, however, be both moral and believe in evolution. These people, myself included, are "humanists".

Secondly, are you really turning to the Bible to find out what's right and wrong? People have waged wars on what's written in the Bible. Ever heard of the Crusades? Or was that not allowed to be taught?

Intelligent design is basically a cop-out. It's like people who have no ability to question what's before them (this very inability being contrary to the spirit of science) are willing to accept everything they read, which itself is contradictory! ID should not have equal weight with evolution because it is utterly unprovable, and mere speculation on the matter can only go so far as "the Bible says it's right so it must be!"

Gunnar Reiersen

I have seen this documentary several times on PBS as well as on this site, and admire it more each time I see it. It so clearly exposes the dishonesty of the Creationist ID proponents, not to mention their scientific incompetence. Several of them clearly committed perjury in their testimonies! They should consider themselves lucky to have not been hit with stiff penalties and/or serious jailtime for that!

I have enjoyed many of the comments here about the documentary. I found Jock's and Vlatco's comments to be particularly astute and well-informed. I am tremendously grateful to Vlatco for providing access to all these documentaries and amazed at his managing to not only manage this site but also find the time to submit as many comments of his own as he does!

Jock

@ Gunnar Reiersen

Thank you for the compliment, Gunnar. A few more words ...

When they lose their sense of awe,
people turn to religion.
When they no longer trust themselves,
they begin to trust in authority.

Lao-Tzu, circa 500 B.C.E. (trans. S. Mitchell).

In my opinion, we should be grateful to be privileged to be present to witness the continuing miracle of this wonderful, terrifying and constantly evolving universe, and be content with that.

What need do we have for supernatural "miracles"?

fred Zeppelin

I think this is the third or fourth time I have watch this doc, personally I find it is excellent and informative. I personally do not believe in god in any form or fashion, it just does not make any sense to me. What I get out of this doc is the complete and total lack of objective thinking these Christians have, And their blind obedience to a book written by MEN about a god they believed in at the time. They (religious people I mean) then take these believes and try to ram it down everyone eases throats, as though it is an undisputed fact. Well guess what not everyone thinks there is a god. I do believe in evolution, to me it makes the most sense of everything I have heard, seen or read.

I don't believe we have morals and laws because of some fear of gods displeasure I believe we have morals and laws because we could not have evolved to the level of society we have today with out them. if we did not co-operate and help each other we would I believe still be at ape level of societies.
Like if one person in a village or tribe way back when kept stealing from the other members of the tribe, or beating/killing them or what ever. Sooner or later everyone in that tribe would band together and get rid of that person. not because they thought he was evil or mean but because they knew one day or another they would be the victim of this persons abusiveness. So as a result we came to a consensus of what is right and what is wrong in our societies/tribes, and by default our morals and values. I don't need god to tell me it is wrong to steal, rape murder or lie to my neighbors, I had a mother and father and the rest of the community around me to teach me these things.

Now that is not to say there is not people in the world that have anything other then their own interests at heart and are indeed truly evil people But to say that the only reason we have morals and values is because some god gave us them, well no sorry I don't buy that. When I see all the evil that is perpetrated on this earth by people in the name of their god. what kind of sick inhuman bastards stand in front of a bunch of people preaching love honesty and upstanding moral values. Then turns around and rapes a little boy in the back room 20 minutes later. Oh ya that's right catholic priests. Who in their right minds can justify flying jumbo jets into building killing thousands of people just because they do not believe in god the same way they do?? oh ya right Muselum extremists. And who would walk into a mosque during Friday prayers with a bag full of automatic weapons and open fire killing everyone he could till eventually he is overpowered beaten to death?? oh ya right a Jewish extremist who believes god gave them a spacial chunk of dirt.

no the moral argument does not work either. There has been more people killed in the name of some god or another over the centuries then Hitler or Stalin can even come close to.

Finally it just scares the hell out of me to think that some of the most powerful people in the united states either truly do believe the earth is not more then 6-10,000 years old, or are force to state as much or they will loose the all important bible belt vote.

@ Charles B.
"Darwin’s theory of evolution isn’t even a good theory; it shouldn’t be taught as “Gospel truth”! It has some many holes, and whole swarm of mutating mud-skippers could walk right rough it!"

They are not teaching it as gospel truth, they are teaching it as a a theory supported by mountains of evidence, that you refuse to be true.

"This is extremely one-sided against creationism. God forgive us."

that's because the bible does not support any scientific fact or theory other then, "God said it so it must be true."

"And yes, creationism is a very valid theory based on the facts and complexity of life itself. Even with all our scientific abilities, we can’t even make a virus let alone a whole world of infinite variety, fully formed and perfect." umm ok I may be going out on a limb here.maybe we can't create a fully functional virus but we certainly know how to manipulate the genes in a virus, so I think it is true we can't make a virus "YET". (although I can't really see the need to make a virus, manipulate the genes in order to make a benificial virus ya I can see that. As for a perfect world with everything in it of infinite variety and fully formed. Why should we, we already have one and if we play our cards right as a species then we can go to the stars and find more. no need to make one ourselves there's lots of them out there we just have to develop the technology to go to them.

I realize this is a bit of rant. However it is something I needed to say, and this is one of the best forums to do so.

TTFN Fred

Eric T

Awesome, objective doc. Nova scores big again.

eric in ga

morals have been found to have evolutionary significance for any of you who read these posts and question your position as holding evolution as "the most correct theory we have , to date"
morals are altruistic, and altruism has many observable, repeatable examples all throughout the animal kingdom, and yes including us human-ish ones. Call ID what it is. An attempt to twist a theory to fit it to a preconception, without proof or intent to provide proof.
This was a very informative documentary, and very descriptive of how far belief can distort a humans perception of his/her surroundings.

eric in ga

I will be here to discuss any further distorting beliefs imposed onto research that are not derived at through the scientific method of research. I await patiently the next 'moving goalpost' set by theists when they attempt to include non-science in the science classroom.

eric in ga

@ Erik's many posts

the 'god' you have in your mind is exactly that. In your mind and yours alone. No other member of whatever congregation you relate with understands that belief exactly as you do. Please spend a few moments to place a 'relevance value' on your belief, that truly is only yours. No one else has lived your exact life nor experienced your exact experiences. Trying to formulate that belief in a theology merely is an admission that you like to conform. I have my own belief of 'whatsup' in heaven. I fully comprehend that no other living human understands it exactly as I do. i chose to relate to other Humans on a basis of actual similarities rather than invented, conformist similarities.

Angel R.

how effed up to BURN! the painting which was put a lot of effort into instead of giving it back to the painter. mean spirited actions driven by blind idealism.

Ramus

@angel r
I didnt understand anything of what you just said! Is it a riddle? Do I have to unscramble the words?
Anywho, I am against religion particularly Christian as that is what I deem Evil (torturing and killing people who dont agree with your view). But I do agree it is possible there is a being that has transcended the material universe, our science fiction hints that we can do it in the future. So what though? If a omnipotent being created everything we see does he put food on your table? Does he turn the electrons into text so you can read what im saying? Does he operate the MRI scanner so your daughter can carry on living? No, science does all that. And I for one am glad the future of the human race is not left in the hands of religious zombies and if I had my way religion would be banned from schools. Maybe in 2000 years people will read Lord of the Rings and place Gandalf as their god and Sauron as satan.

Ramus

With regards to the doc it makes me sick that some Christians are the most morally inept aholes on earth. For instance : TV evangelist Pat Robertson basically states that if there is a disaster in the town of Dover god will ignore them. 2 of the creationists lie under oath and the judge receives death threats from the creationists. If lying, threatening and hoping someone will die is religious then I am glad to be an atheist.

http://yogapantsonline.com/ Henry Mayors

Thank you for such an inspirational post. It left me with a couple of lasting thoughts. Shanti!

Viktor T

Love read comments, I learn much more of all opinions.. its very good understand people opinions before you judge anything..
"Science will leave Religion alone, when Religion don´t mess with Science" :P

Singapura

Actually, the whole "controversy" between Evolution and Creationism is a bit silly. Instead of legally forbidding to teach creationism (or intelligent design) why not allow it but also make it mandatory for all religious institutions to preach evolution, pay taxes and allow non and other believers to become a member? Creationists always claim that they are being discriminated against by the "Darwinist elite" so why not give them a seat at the table but also demand to have a say in their own closed little groups? For that matter, atheism should be protected as a belief too and atheist institutions should be made tax exempt.

God

@Charles B.

My name is God and I'm an atheist. You were not created equal to everyone else. You are better at some things and worse at others and this is due to the unique genes that have been passed on to you from your ancestors. I didn't make genes, they evolved themselves. However, you deserve to be treated with respect and dignity like everyone and everything else. My existence is not required for you to realize this. Objective thinking just doesn't happen to be one of your strengths, religious devotion is.

Bless you

Kimberly Currah

Throughout history one thing is an absolute certainty...when religion attempts to challenge science it ends up losing every time.

It seems to take the general public between 500-2000 years to accept scientific facts. It's truly quite amazing. I am reading several books on the history of science and even things like believing the planet wasnt flat or that we are not at the center of the universe took 500 years to overcome.

So remember that the scientific fact of Evolution has only been around for 150 years. It will take another 1500 years before the less informed will learn to accept in large enough quantities. But in the end science has never lost to religion...ever...religion just ends up readjusting and accepting the fact.

Arnar

Intelligent Design is a stupid design.

biplab

The fact that Darwin's theory has been challenged by academics for 150years and is still being taught validates the beauty of it. I agree it is just a theory but it is the best theory we have with the most sound evidence. I do not believe that teaching evolution is an attack on god, rather I believe the two can coexist but intelligent design is not a science.

By teaching intelligent design as a 'science' we are not giving our children a choice but rather dumbing them down.

I feel really saddened for researchers and academics when I hear of people trying to push creationism into science classrooms because I feel like it disrespects and de validates the importance of what they do.

Ryan Dorin

Darwin's theory still leaves room for investigation. That's good science! Good Christians should not be sending death threats to judges, or lying under depositions. The scariest message I got from this doc is that ignorance is a new Gospel for many goodhearted people of the U.S.

Epicurus

@Ryan, Darwins theory HAS been refined since it was introduced 150 years ago. Darwin had no knowledge of genetics. but with modern genetics they have confirmed his theory that through natural selection the more advantageous genes are chosen to survive and reproduce. over time this produces such variance that the genetic difference between the initial organism and teh later one are so diverse they couldnt breed with one another given the chance thus giving rise to a new species.

Ryan Dorin

@Epucurus, So we agree on the basic point. The biggest (and most compelling) argument against Darwinism is the lack of data BETWEEN the emergence of new species. All of a sudden, one thing BECOMES something else. I'm not a creationist, but I also wonder if this great environment called "Earth" isn't driven by forces we have not discovered yet - that push our "mutations" and "variations" in ways that lead us ever onwards towards an increasing survival "development".

daver

I do have a bit of jealousy for those who truly believe in creationism despite the overwhelming evidence, I just don't have it in me. The fact is humans have been around what, a couple thousand years where the earth has been around for a couple BILLION. Our earth has survived and inhabited many creatures before us which our now extinct and will do so after humans have become extinct. If you really study the science and see how absolutely amazing it is that a clump of cells over millions of years can adapt and evolve to become us, then you become not a creation of God, but a miracle of nature!

awful-truth

@achems razor;
great all around discussion people, glad to see many ideas being expressed. Only want to add one correction to achem. The word religion comes from a sanscrit (mother of all tongues) word religo meaning "myth". Check out Joseph Campbell's 'the power of the myth'; he was considered the most pre-eminent scholar on comparative mythology. For an interesting twist, watch the documentary "expelled; no inteligence allowed". Spirituality and religion are not the same thing, and Ben Stein proves that Richard Dawkins is not an athiest, but more correctly an agnostic. No one can say where life began, not science or religion. Dawkins just doesn't believe in man made explanations (religion) but isn't against the idea that the creation of the universe or life that exists in it could be the result of intelligent design.
I really enjoyed both of these documentaries and I leave the readers with one question. how do we know that evolution is not an aspect of intelligent design itself? Perhaps we haven't been around long enough to see everything for what it really is. Either way, most of the documentaries on this websites are pretty good. keep up the good work (with the exception of the doc. about how man didn't walk on the moon!(terrible, misleading, creationism on steroids!)

psychedelicshaMAN

Well, after reading the entire page of comments, I feel the subject is very well handled by the humble minds of jock and achems (only to name those who have argued in fervent complexity, and above all, truth.)

I would just reiterate some of their opinions i find to be important in us all.

We do not fully, as of this very moment, know the nature of the infinite cosmos that is now laid before us. We can simply ask questions as to the origins of the unique that is abundant on this our mother Earth. If we might only look inside ourselves, unblinded by religious bias and, i say this bluntly, the ignorance of such teachings as Creationism, i.e. Intelligent Design, i.e. god. The only such known religion that I can sanely harmonize with is that of Buddhist origin, which implies that we are all gods waiting to spring forth into the light of existence in the heavenly realm of spiritual causality.

As of now, we do not fully comprehend, but why should we? Our purpose is to question everything, albeit that include our very existence. Do not grasp to these explanations, for they may sadly disappoint you, but in the name of science, humanity, and for **** sakes our mental/ spiritual well being, please take common sense as your companion, and furthermore, critical & analytical thinking as your guide.

Decide in your heart, and truth will echo throughout eternity.

-Namaste

Creatio-whaa!?

Creationism.

A monument to ignorance.

Hodd

Creationists are kinda like apes with human bodies... Creationists are the missing link!!!

http://www.facebook.com/ssbuyco Solomon S. Buyco

Matthew 6:32
For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

http://www.facebook.com/raodhammer Road Hammer

bring them both together, both right, both saying the troth but saying it in different level of evolution. i wander such a smart scientist cant figure easy issue like this. they talk about two different time of evolution.

http://www.facebook.com/raodhammer Road Hammer

you right my friend, i remember said in holy book Quran: Go out from four side of the world but cant go out of my reason.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XZR6WL24TXNHGIM3GQDDTA7FTI Soul

"God created everything" is all I need to drive a car... but it is not a problem in having a driver license... it is all about my knowledge in running the car properly in the street.

lakeside69

Evolution is NOT a theory it is fact there is proof, get up to speed on todays science guys........

emilyemily

Creationsim: "I dun undastood it so god lord jezus musta done did it"

pulunco

I can't decide...trolling or just stupid?

fivepointfivesix

Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them. [Steve Eley]

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FTLZ67RH7OIQ6CRQI27RYNV54E Bob

If we were designed, then where is the source code in DNA that says we were made by someone or some team of beings? When I write computer programs I always write my name in the comments and describe the purpose of every function so I can go back and remember why something was done the way it was or improve upon it. If we were designed we could locate such comments as proof of a creator. So far, DNA only includes code of the animals we once were related to and nothing more… these old body parts are commented out as it no longer has a function.
If I was to design a living thing, I would give it zero point energy, which lets say harnesses the atom instead of killing other animals. I would have it boot up and have an owner’s manual on how to fix its self and to not kill as an embedded command that could not be overridden. Everything would be designed with a purpose, some machines would be creative but have no arms or legs so it could not have free will to destroy, other machines would have a body to move to break down proteins and create things, etc… They would be able to wirelessly communicate, so there would be a limit to the number of each species of machines and to receive new instructions for updates and to obey.
Freewill only makes sense to me if you thought your universe was about to be destroyed an d a new one created from this one.

Virus Tera

Congratulation Darwinian Evolutionist :-)
It was a fantastic trial. This case was won because your lawyers did a hell of job to expose the sinful purpose of pushing a religion (that holds to some hocus pocus) beliefs with the help of science.
The case was ruled in the favor of the parents against the school because the school was working against the constitution of USA, which was actually the basis of the case(not Evolution vs Creationism) & Not because Evolution held an upper hand...
On a whole It was a victory of wit or a victory of arguments...Not of Evolution yet...

http://www.facebook.com/MichaelExpress Michael Hoevenaar

Darwin proved himself wrong on his deathbed. and what a dull meaningless life if we are just another branch on the tree,. were not unique or anything just a random occurrence. I just cant believe that , and everyone who does looks like a lifeless drone with no happiness and never smiles.

http://www.facebook.com/MichaelExpress Michael Hoevenaar

Both theories should be taught so that people can make their own informed decision , this is just like the christian religion. Saying there is only one way and if you don't thing that then your a religious quack. That is a one track and closed minded way of thinking.

http://www.facebook.com/MichaelExpress Michael Hoevenaar

Im the type of person that believes a higher being or intelligence had some sort of intervention in our evolution or even creation possible , what if god created use by use of darwinism? What if the aliens came and took the apes and modified their dna to make us and added the 12th dormant straind of DNA.

Leee Pontruce

There is no proof other than a miffed Lady Hope that Darwin retracted evolution on his deathbed. Even his family, who disapproved of evolution, said that he would never have done that. What evidence do you have that creationism should be taught in school? Have you heard of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? They have a creation account and it has about the same amount of evidence as yours does.

Who determines Christianity, Muslim, Hindu, or the Popul Vuh to be the "real" creation story? If people want to find out about these the can research these. Science classes normally don't just give you these theories and let you decide. They use logic, evidence, and explanations. My science class, when explaining evolution, taught the DNA, fossil record, etc. THEN they gave an analysis of the information and came up with a probable explanation. Whoever hears this can make a decision to believe it or not.

You can be a christian and evolutionist, nobody says you can't. Many people believe in both. However, when you look at who wrote the bible, no matter how wise they may have been in your eyes... they were laymen and simpletons. They viewed things as black and white with no gray area. Hopefully, when people start accepting this and stop putting this into the "to be ignored" pile in their brain, people will start to question the bible. You CAN'T pick and choose from the bible and you HAVE to face reality.

Joe Grzybowski

Intelligent Design, pardon me.. I mean CREATIONISM.. can be taught in any christian school in the entire country. It's a religious belief system and the only place it belongs is in Religion class.Nowhere else and ESPECIALLY not in a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Children are being taught Real Science. Not quack religious ideology. Creationism is NOT SCIENCE, ITS NOT SCIENCE, ITS NOT SCIENCE.. There is no proof, no evidence, it's not a theory... Its a matter of faith.. Close minded? WOW.. THE Intelligent Design proponents, im sorry, I mean CREATIONIST proponents are the close minded ones. If a new theory on how human beings came to be in existence was found, and there was testable, accurate hypothesis and so on it would ABSOLUTELY be mentioned. But to date, the only theory is Evolution.. Intelligent Design not only isn't science but it completely ignores science. No that's close minded. By this ridiculous logic then astrology should be taught along with Astronomy. Physic phenomena should be taught in a Psychology class, Big foot and the Loch Ness monster should be added to textbooks next to lions, tigers and bears. If you want to believe that the world was created by God that's fine, but don't teach it in the Science classroom. I commend people of Faith, there is nothing wrong with having faith, but when you try to push your religious ideology on others who do not believe the words written in a fictional story book, well, that is wrong. This is America, were religion is kept separate and Intelligent Design/Creationism is RELIGIOUS. I have a few friends that believe Aliens created the human race and helped up evolve. What's to stop the Alien Believers from pushing there agenda and their beliefs in the Science classroom. There is actually more evidence and more logic to saying Aliens visited Earth and helped humanity evolve then there is with Creationism. How horrible of a "theory" is Intelligent Design/Creationism has to be when Alien visitors to the planet thousands of years ago holds more weight than the ID/Creationist theory. It's laughable. Science has ab adbundant amount of respect for religion. Science lets religion do it's own thing and stays out of the way. It's Religion that is always butting in on Science, pushing it's beliefs and trying to annihilate science altogether. Unfortunately, Science always prevails because it's based on facts, testable hypothesis and logic. Religion will always continue to lose because it's based upon fictional stories, guesses, and lies.

Yavanna

I`ve just revisited this after two years

I`m curious Charles B.... Have you evolved yet?

Achems_Razor

@Yavanna:

Okay, that is funny, you made me laugh out loud, lol.

twall10107

One of the most striking errors in the Koran is the claim (made repeatedly) that in the spring "God creates new life" in fields where "everything has died". You'd think that any uneducated farmer could have wised up Muhammad (who seems to have been a city boy himself) to the fact that that "new life" was merely the emergence of living seeds that had been dormant, not "dead".
That formula ("See God kill. See God create life") is used in argument, to depict God's limitless power and hence authority, and by association to justify the wielding by human authorities, of the "power of life or death" over other human beings in God's name. The problem is: it's NOT truth, or knowledge, or if you will, "science". It's just an ignorant, simple-minded misrepresentation of nature.
Almost any one of the characters on "Green Acres" could have spoken with more authority on this central point of religious doctrine, even Arnold.

Nipz82

What the fu*k are you talking about? DNA is a code, a language actually, and the code is a way of deciphering what proteins are in what order to make a part of a living thing function. It would be like you writing a code using English then someone from Spain saying his code has notes on it so why doesn't yours...

it's NOT all the code of all the ancient animals...holy sh*t man.

Brendo Dawson

Get this, what make us so special to have a soul that moves onto heaven? NOTHING. All Living organisms must have a soul if we have one, so there is a lot of dinosaurs and animals in heaven if it exists, id rather take my chances on earth than in heaven with the raptors and T-Rex's lol

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FMS5YYZNXVYSWWMBNRDHBZ3NMU TJ

not neccessarily.. our brains are much different than most animals, and certainly has the ability to produce a vivid consciousness that most animal's brains may not;in fact, everything from sponges up t o reptiles are incapable of producing the coherent consciousness that we have. this has to be at least the window for the soul, ask any conscious person ;P...
ive made the assumption that there is a link between consciousness and the soul, which im going to stick with after my (extensive for a 25 year old)research in neurobiology

BA Psychology, BS Biology, MS2 med student

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FMS5YYZNXVYSWWMBNRDHBZ3NMU TJ

there are striking scientific errors in all religious texts. they are meant to be taken as metaphors, not routine breakings of the laws of physics. creating the earth, making new life from dead each spring, theres a pretty big group of people who go by a book where people 'rise from the dead'. a god with perfect planning could make a world that puts everyones beliefs through the ringer

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FMS5YYZNXVYSWWMBNRDHBZ3NMU TJ

if this is how your logic works you must have a massive ego and are slowly going crazy

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FMS5YYZNXVYSWWMBNRDHBZ3NMU TJ

just finished reading your comment, youre already nuts.
you cant just design aspects of something like picking fruits in a grocery store. try designing a universe with reliable, fundamental laws of physics that operate at scales trillions of times smaller than people, but then create people (with free will or consciousness blah blah) 14 billion years after everything sets in motion and continues without outside interference. We dont even know enough about time to incorporate it into a programming viewpoint yet.
I think ur under the assumption you can build a universe by dropping things in like building a house in the Sims..

Lary9

I am suspicious of your abbreviated curriculum vita, albeit alleged, and believe that you are a high school graduate indulging in fantasy posting. Someone with your alleged experience should have a writing style with tighter, more explicit prose. Instead your posts read like a stream of scatter-shot ideas from the mind of a graduate in Applied Stoneology. Am I wrong? If I am, then I will shred the incident report I'm writing for the Bureau of Silly Stoner Comments and not turn you in.

crud4444

When I first heard about intelligent design, just the name, I thought: "Well, yeah, whoever designed the universe - with all the laws that hold it together in existance- must have been very intelligent."
Then I fully read the article.
And I thought: "If their faith doesn't withstand science, It's not much of a faith at all." Faith means believing in something not-yet or never-will-be proven.
Why not believe in God and science? Can't you take science as proof of God? It's not as if science ever proved God does not exist...

http://www.facebook.com/glen.hale2 Glen Hale

Let me see if I have this correct a man marries and doesn't have sex with his wife and she gets pregnant first time in history and has not happened since.
JC was born.
All animals have the same bone structure all from nature working out the best design and Humans are not descendants from Ape but another species closely related.

The Doco is in here some where worth finding all about how Genes are switched on or off at birth , even Chickens have teeth but the gene/s is switched off at birth.
Next time you eat chicken wings count the bones the "fingers " have been programmed to join together.
All this is another form of religion all will never agree and it will be argued until the end of the World.

trumpsahead

Zecharia Sitchin anyone? There are many books the great Sitchin made reference to that indicates the first great civilization on on our planet, the Sumerians, were given the knowledge by "the people of fiery rockets". Aliens came to Earth in search of gold for their breached ozone layer, and after 144,000 years created humans from hominids to help with the workload. As wild as that sounds, it is totally logical, as the evidence suggests: The oldest "manmade" things on Earth are the gold mines in Africa; pyramids are found in almost every country and have been determined to be "networked". The Sumerians knew of all the planets in our solar system and knew they revolved around the Sun, their weights, distances, and sizes of each relative to one another. By the time the Greeks handed us Astronomical info, most of the info was lost and the Greeks believed our world was flat.
Previous to our "creation" from hominids, our entire planet was originally biologically seeded by the same planet these aliens came from when their "Lord of Hosts" entered our solar system, which btw, still does every 3,600 years, according to Sitchin. So we have Evolution and alien intervention which worked very well together.
I know one thing for certain: The universe was well established before our solar system took root, and the Alpha God of the Bible, Jehovah/Yahweh, was not the creator of the universe but in fact was one of a pantheon of gods who landed on Earth for their self interests.
As it turned out, it was the second in command, Ea, who became Our "universal god" Jehovah (which is a corruption of the name Ea), because he was the most cunning, and most compassionate toward humans. It was he who upgraded hominids to humans.
Of course this does not answer whether the universe was created by Design or Chance, so I'll state my simple opinion: I've always felt it was Nature, Mother Nature, that causes all to occur seemingly by chance, but in fact, there are universal laws involved in everything that happens, like good and evil, yin and yang, karma, with the general direction favoring growth, harmony, love. But if you read the above, from written works on clay tablets and evidence left on earth like pyramids, and advanced cereal grains, we know that Humans were created from hominids by Design.

Judge Jones was nominated by Santorum and appointed by Bush 43, so the defendants should have respected his ruling and not deemed it judicial activism. it appears that "judicial activism" means not agreeing with the judge, whether he's "your boy" or not.

chip griffin

creationist are a must on the front lines right? well i will just sit this one out and wait for the answers to male and female. i believe someone thought about that one for just a min. or can air think?
two to make one? couldn't happen on it's own. not the shortest path in anyone's book...

chip griffin

yall want us to believe, nature decided to make a male and a female to reproduce one of either. this would never be the shortest path.
where the sexes made before or after sight? what did they look for first food or sex?
pure stupid religion you got, at least mine comes with rules that make a better place.
another thing before i go, when you get your survival of the fittest, you'll find it is the last thing you want.
coming later this year when the government crashes the stock market and open fema with what is left of the living, then they rule a prison state with deadly fist. hope to be one of the first to go. hell on earth coming very soon.
they took down building 7 and now have to fill the waiting fema camps to prove my book was right the whole time, yet it was wrote 6 thousand years ago. one hell of a finish...
the kicker is they knew it was true, but made you believe it wasn't to allow rapid movement in last stage.
google four blood moons on youtube...

chip griffin

silly humans, the last years were the worse, they left the smart rule and outsmarted themselves...

over the edge

lets look at your statements shall we
- "yall want us to believe, nature decided to make a male and a female" no nature didn't decide anything. there is no end goal within evolution
- "where the sexes made before or after sight?" irrelevant
-"pure stupid religion you got, at least mine comes with rules that make a better place." i do not have a religion (nice try) please explain what god you subscribe to so i can judge for myself? and your statement in no way is proof of anything.
- "when you get your survival of the fittest, you'll find it is the last thing you want" please explain what you you think survival of the fittest means within the theory of evolution.
-government.the stock market.fema. building seven and so on have nothing to do with ID or evolution. I will not be chasing your red herrings. do you have an argument for ID? did you read my link? do you wish to have an actual debate on topic?

chip griffin

no, i don't want to debate, my spelling is very bad.
look they are shutting this thing down very soon, when you see this you will know i have told you the truth. i have a city down south GA, not fema, not mark of the beast.
if you want i will give you the way, if you don't that is ok too.
2 billion bullets will kill a lot of people, those left after they kill each other
it is all in the plan. they sold the lie, so their god could rule as he does now.. you were played, we all were at some point.
catholic church, find GOD somewhere fast...

chip griffin

not mad at you, just sad to see good people fall for crap, they are going to play the et card too. good luck friend...

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

I hope you get the psychiatric help you need.

chip griffin

yea, that is logical if you are a r*tard! stop smoking pot it is not helping you any. start over with that thought and try again...

chip griffin

very smart young man, from the looks of his thinking process. you will do well...

chip griffin

not yet and it ant looking good, something about a big fire, the last i heard...

chip griffin

this is the best this guy can come up with i'm glad apes can't talk! he will follow any r*tard. what about accountability is it in that you don't like. question for the brain dead, just wait untl you see their smart replies. hitler could have really used this type...used you for the point man

chip griffin

just who do you think are writing the laws? since when is free speech been getting mod? oh well no wonder it is almost over even the good have followed the foolish and without thinking done himself in. i would say wake up, but it is far too late for that, just keep following the da in front of you. warning. it is going to get real painful. should have used this time more wisely. it would have been worth the trouble!!!

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

What did you just attempt to say to me?

do you proof read before you hit the post button?

chip griffin

does it really matter? from what you have learned on your own, i don't believe any one can help or hurt at this point...

docoman

You don't want to debate it because your spelling is very bad you say. But I see you've got the time and spelling ability to reply with more claims since then.
Supposed to be a sin lying about things isn't it? Your spelling is not why you wish to avoid debate, be honest with yourself first. What a joke of an excuse.

The real reason you don't wish to debate it is you don't want to challenge your current views, which a close, honest and intelligent examination of will force you to do.
Fear, your fear to be more accurate, is why you don't want to look at your claims.

chip griffin

no, the truth is i'm tired of wasting my time. thiis place is about something. it is not enemty as you wished it to be. everything was prefectly laid out, put into place only those not suppose to see it could ever miss it. the facts simply overwhem us.
take a look at a duck. stop and look at it. only the best artist could pull it off if it was dead, but then add all it has to it and WOW.
can't wait for the reward. wish you could have made it. mashing and griding of teeth...

chip griffin

i'll start with a duck, your move...

over the edge

i have come to the conclusion "chip" is either trolling or delusional. either way he gets no more of my time. hope yourself or epic have better luck than i did

docoman

No chip, you already started with Bull. Seems to be all you have so far, BS and evasion. Do you have anything else, something worth discussing? A question even?
I did ask you one, that you 'ducked', (that supposed to be clever is it?) In your beliefs, is it a sin to be dishonest? I expect your answer to be a yes, or at worst a maybe.
If so, what is the real reason you don't wish to discuss or debate your position? We both know it's not because of your spelling. Your spelling is understood just fine. Was I correct in suggesting it was out of fear of examining your beliefs?

docoman

C'mon chip, you should have heard a better one then a duck if you've spent much time in a church.... a bee hive... much more then just a duck. Not only do you have one living animal, you have a few types working together. Much harder to 'pull off' then just a duck...

Hive trumps a foul... ;)
P.S that's not mashing and grinding of teeth you hear, it's people really enjoying bacon...mmmmmmm

chip griffin

no, it is his beauty that gets me, just take a long look at her lines and colors. drop dead gorgeous...

chip griffin

then i will move a family structor, add a single hood with one guy and one girl who find love deep in each others eyes, then take a look back later to find this love was so deep its life span was 69 yrs and they died within days of each other from a broken heart, my grand parents after 12 kids would be found nude down by the river making love and often seen holding hands at age 90. this trumps your church, there is a GOD i have seen him from time to time in this world. that kind of love don't die it moves to the next world.
your move...

docoman

Your grandparents sound like lucky people, its a nice story and good for them.
I don't have a "GOD" or a church mate. You're the one arguing that line...kind of.
Basically you're saying that because there is a bond between people we named 'love', it doesn't die "it moves to the next world".
What 'next world'? There is no evidence there is any 'after-life' or 'next world' as far as I've seen, other then in some peoples minds and wishes. Unless you have some to offer?

If you're going to use 'love', I'll give you one of 'your type' of quotes.
John 15:13 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.'
Personally I think it's a greater love to consciously sacrifice yourself to keep someone else alive then it is to find a mate/partner for life. Not to mention against instinct, and much rarer. (one of the truths mixed into the Bible in an attempt to give it credibility)
But even such a generous deed doesn't mean there MUST be something extra we have no evidence for. That is just, at best, 'romantic' thinking, not reality.

isn't that the whole point if there were proof it would defeat the purpose. what would you do if you believed no one was watching? you have answered that question with you life. now add up all the variables, looks, money, family, etc and the scale begins to weight.
now take a look into near death events on youtube or even here in doc. com. i have been places and they are real. the truth is it never ends, the bible is correct. your results come judgement day. forever is a long time, one lifetime is a long time...

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

thank you.

docoman

What purpose for starters? I've had a near death experience myself... was no 'god' there for me. Anecdotal evidence like that, either way, is effectively useless.
When you say 'the bible is correct', do you mean everything it says, or just some things? In this case there being some kind of 'judgement' at our death that impacts on us in eternity.
You ask what is the point of proof? Evidence and proof are so it means more then just some ramblings, someone else's ideas. That there is something based in reality to it.

chip griffin

the reality is, your life goes according to how others treat you! but you fight against good as if it is your enemy. as if your brain as not the ability to be reasoned with. i bring you sound reasoning and you reject it. love tho brother as tho self, will never harm you, yet you hate me, why?

docoman

I ask you some questions about what you've claimed to know, and somehow that equates to me fighting against good, being unreasonable, and that I hate you.

The persecution card...
That's a foul move too.
Again, isn't it supposed to be a sin to lie? Why bear false witness against me chip?

Obviously your definition of sound reasoning is different to mine. You haven't given any sensible reasoning from what I've read of yours. Only claims and statements, silly stuff like I question you, therefore I hate you.

Are you aware of what a griffin is? One that claims to be a 'soldier of GOD' might want to re-think that as a nick-name I'd think.

chip griffin

this is not a nick name, it is my real name. and yes i know what a griffin is. you check rev. and you will find him there.
i was hoping you spent your life looking around a bit and found some stuff for yourself. if this is day one, go to the local church. they will play the game and take your money. if you care to save your butt? i will be hard, fast, and fair. because we are out of time. the take down begins in just a few months and they want much more than your money. they are after your soul...

decide what you want to do. body of a lion, head and wings of an eagle...

docoman

Hmm, I'm sorry for you then. Did your parents loose a bet? Just joking mate, don't be offended. I have read revelations, but to be honest I don't recall the word griffin in it, or a description matching one exactly, it has been awhile though, and there was a few weird 'beasties' mentioned.
I've quoted the bible directly, and used other phrases from it, I thought that'd be enough of a clue for you to work out it's not 'day one' for me and the bible. I agree, if I be quiet and don't ask too many pesky questions, the local church would be happy to play their game and take my money.

Why the rush, if we've got at least a few months left? The way my government usually works, if its supposed to be months then it'll likely be years. :(

I'm not a hooker chip, there's no need to be hard, fast and fair with me.
If you don't want to discuss it that's OK. I'm willing to have a look at your reasoning if you feel like it. I should say, in case you haven't noticed, I don't believe the Bible is the 'word of God', and I will ask questions and offer my opinion, not just be preached to.

chip griffin

yea, you do that mate, go hire a builder to build your house, then go out there and tell him how to do it, or better yet ask him, what are you doing all the time.

that has been the problem this far. pride. well this is the time to humble one's self and hope to be found worthy. you must avoid the mark of the beast. do you know what it is?

docoman

Yes, hand and forehead, needed for trade.
So you don't like questions. You have that in common with 'my local church'.
Why is it a bad thing not just taking someone's word over firstly my having a soul and there being a god, and secondly them knowing which god it is, and what this god wants and what I must do to 'save myself'?

chip griffin

no, i asked, do you know what it is? meaning, if you were going to tell someone not to get it. what would the it, be?

chip griffin

some are in highschool others collage.

docoman

Well, as far as I'm aware, that is still being debated amongst those that believe the bible. Some say it's going to be something like a bar-code, I've heard others say it's going to be a chip-implant (no pun intended, but I did lol), I've also heard it's supposed to be something genetic...it depends on which believer I'm talking to. Edit- and what the latest technology is.

chip griffin

well it will be a chip or implant and it will be forced on everyone. can't buy or sell. take your food with you, hint hint...

docoman

I've heard and read the doomsday predictions, mark of the beast, can't buy or sell, living in the hills, child against parent etc. I grew up hearing that stuff chip, have spent years doing bible study.
That is the story, not your reasoning for believing it. If you're just re-telling revelations we're wasting our time mate...I'm not asking the builder what he's doing... I'm asking why you think you need to.

I'm not following you i don't think chip. You believe because...you're one of the two prophets/witnesses mentioned in Rev chapter 11?

over the edge

you have the patience of job

Achems_Razor

I do not have much patience with fundy happy clappy religee's, they see the world with tunnel vision, it seems the planet is top heavy with the holier than thou pious, cat ate the canary, I know something more than you than you type. Isn't there supposed to be a rapture a-coming so the planet can shake them off as fleas, and the rest of us can go about to reach for the stars/space technology et al, someone take his computer away and let him/them revert back to the bronze age where they all belong.

awful_truth

@chip griffin: I was just reading the comments on this topic. I have a question. Which book written 6,000 years ago are you referring to?
(a serious question)

awful_truth

@chip griffin: Your lashing out at trumpsahead 2 days ago regarding a comment he made a year ago was not very nice.
For the record, implanting a chip became unnecessary when corporate evil got everyone to love their chip instead. (cellphones with gps tracking, microphone activation, apps, etc)
I am a very open minded person, and I can't see anything more logical from your position than from trumpsahead's mention of Zacharia Sitchin's translation of the Sumerian's text. (not expected since these are issues of belief, not logic)
If you truly believe god is good, and just, do you really think he has a need for people (chosen ones) who call people r*tards for having different beliefs? Furthermore, what do you have against pot? If I recall correctly, Jesus was accused of drinking fermented wine, (bad Jesus) but the bible makes no mention of weed. Perhaps it is time you take a deep toke, I mean breath, relax a little, and take a trip (literally) to say Washington, or Colorado. In other words, light up, I mean lighten up, and try not to take it all so seriously. If you truly believe what you are saying, than you should have pity for everyone around you, not disdain, and judgement - that is beyond your purview, even by your belief. Take care, and best wishes chip.

awful_truth

@docoman: You get an A+ for patience, tact, and delivery. A great example for everyone to follow.
P.S: Over the edge is correct. You have the patience of Job!

Michael Jay Burns

surely Chip you must be able to understand that "if there were proof it would defeat the purpose" is a way of thinking (or more precisely -not thinking) that can be used to support any and all absurdities. Once someone admits this is a basis of their thinking there is no reason to discuss anything at all with them. They live in a fantasy that is beyond evidence or reason.
Religion is a sort of sanctioned schizophrenia.

chip griffin

the bible, the catholic bible, the one Jesus handed petter...you know what i mean, the truth was passed on by Jesus. the history can be traced all the way back to him

chip griffin

friend i am not one of those who lives by faith, but greater is the man who does...i live by fact, i touched the hands.

chip griffin

i have nothing against pot per say, but i believe it causes laziness, but not to all. friend it is not yet over, if i can piss off someone enough to make them stop and think, then the route was a good one. not all look at things like you, please try and remember this before passing judgement. the mark(chip) must go under the skin. or enter your flesh. don't let it. resist at all cost even death. our trail is at the door. prepare your heart and mind. pray you are found worthy...

jackmax

Maaaaate,

Have you read the sh1t you have written prior to your above statement to awful truth? It must be hard being a f*ck wit as it seems you are. You have pissed off some one enough to comment to your post.!
Smoking/consuming MJ has nothing to do with evolution or the belief of your "magic man" and to think otherwise is foolish.
i was talking to docoman in real life today and he told me to take it easy on you as it seems that you have a mental illness or have been brainwashed by your family whilst growing up.

I thought f*ck him and F*ck you, you're a goose without feathers..!!

I have a couple of questions before I rip you a new assh*le. Do you still believe in stanta claus or the easter bunny?

If you don't. How is it that you can believe in the biggest fairytale of them all in the magic man (god).?

chip griffin

you see i was hoping you took time to think for yourself, mate. now that takes real courage. it is just too easy to roll with flow these days huh. tell you what wise guy, before you rip yourself a new buttt do 1 thing for me, ok?

go down to your local store and steal any 10 item you can. i would say start cheaper but you being a follower and all it just might get by you. so start at the 10 level for a good slap in the face.

take that item and look up, ok GOD i say you ant real, but if you are, make me pay for this times two. that is the going rate you know mate. after you have done this then i will take whatever you bring...

jackmax

Hey dipshit are the questions I put to you to hard or are you that stupid.?

What will breaking the law achieve. What happen to thou shall not steal?

How is my response to you make me a follower?

It would seem that your the one that is weak and lacks courage, as you,re the one that wont let go off the fairytales told to you as a child.
Wake up Chip we have so much evidence to date to prove the case for evolution in todays modern world, believing the magic man had anything to do with it shows me that you have some issues that have never been addressed.
I'm a little confussed as to which one of the approximately 28,000,000 gods are you talking about and how do you know that you're worshipping the right one?
Have you ever tried to think for yourself without relying on some out dated book of lies? I know from what you have written on this thread that thinking is not your strong point, however give it a try you may surprise yourself

Which copy of the book of lies do you read and how can you believe whats written considering all the mistakes in it.

Why don't you try reading about Charles Darwin and how he so beautifully explained evolution. I also recommend Richard Dawkins book The God Delusion, as it may awaken you from your fantasy so you can see how extremely beautiful the natural world is and how fortunate we are to be able to understand better how we have got here.

Achems_Razor

Okay, I see you are the one that started this war in progress, please desist, and stop proselytizing, and to the others, also desist, or will have to delete all. Thanks.

awful_truth

@chip griffin: It is my understanding (from memory) that the old testament is not 6,000 years old. In fact, this number which is bandied about regarding the age of the earth actually comes from an Irish Archbishop in 1750 A.D (I think) by the name of James Usher who counted the popes and cardinals, and finally determined that the earth began on 4004 B.C on September 17, at 9.00 A.M. (check for confirmation)
The old testament can be dated back no further than Moses whose life occurred about 3,500 years ago.
This is why I was asking you which book you were referring to because your time frame is quite inaccurate. It is just a suggestion, but if you wish for people to hear your message, credibility and accuracy go hand in hand.

awful_truth

@chip griffin: To start with, we both appear to have the same goal, which is to make people actually think, not just repeat what they have been told, but actually think about why we are here, and what the universe is really about.
Although I am a very spiritual person, (I believe in god) I am not religious per say, since it is my belief that all of our explanations are inadequate in grasping or conveying the true nature of what we perceive around us.
I have no desire to judge anyone since I believe we all have something to offer. Since my connection with the 'big guy' is personal, I have no need to pray regarding my worthiness, since I do the best that I can, and don't beat myself up for things beyond my control. (no regrets)
This is why I prefer to find the humour in life, (when I can) because god knows how serious I really am regarding that which is most important in life. (be a good person, fight for what is in everyone's best interests, and to work, and play hard. - in that order)
Enlightenment is what matters most, and that only occurs from us engaging in life itself, and learning from those experiences. We do this not just for ourselves, but for everyone around us. We are all one!
Take care and best wishes chip.
P.S: I don't own a cell phone, and I have never had anything implanted. I have never been overnight in a hospital in 50 years of life. (apparently, god loves me; well, most of the time)

chip griffin

fair enough, try praying you might be surprised. did you meet your wife without saying a word...

chip griffin

i guess that depends on who you ask...

docoman

lol, it's all mostly myth? Ya got me there mate. :)

docoman

Thank you a_t, ditto mate. The truth is I was having a good day and was medicated. ;)

docoman

I'm usually the same mate. I have become more interested lately with why so many people still believe. I get it, but don't understand it, if that makes any sense.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

lol it always depends on the day. catch me on a good day and I have the patience of a saint. Catch me on another day and im not going to entertain stupidity.

I find that over the many many years of debate I have become so disillusioned that I very rarely have a day where I have anymore patience with people like this.

docoman

So you say you had proof. Why is it too much to ask for the same level of evidence for myself then? Why do I have to take it on faith, but you get proof? Why the double standards?

You didn't answer my other question about Rev. 11, and what you meant by one of two....
I re-read Rev. 11, in a couple different versions.

Am I right in thinking you were saying you personally are 'one of two', that you are one of the two prophets/witnesses Rev. 11 talks about? Is that why you have 'touched the hands'?

chip griffin

just like Moses when he lead the israelites out of egypt, he met and talked with GOD for 40 days. Moses had to know a few more things in order to do his job, right? well i was taken into heaven and given somewhat of the same things. i met with a lot of famous people in the bible and heard of their hardship to help prepare me. this has been going on over the past 7 years and now we have come to the days of hardships. we can and will make it, those whose names are written in the BOOK OF LIFE.
the angels have been staying with me over the past few weeks all day and night now. this is how i know our time is finally here. i have to come and make it known to all. the government has been getting prepared over the past few years. now that all the players are in place, it is about to kick off.
the stock market will start it's long fall toward belly up on A tuesday. the plan is to take down the worlds money and bring up the NWO and it new money system, forcing it on all, great and small, rich and poor, free and bond.
there will be roadblocks springing up out of no where, forcing you off the road into a clinical setting just long enough to give you the mark. another country is going to assist in helping our government decieve its people, also the et's play a role. i don't have time to go into all of it now. read your bible and pray for GOD's protection and guildness.
my guess is you have done well in your life, this is why GOD allowed you to be among the first to hear my warning. keep up your good deeds and faith. whatever it was to get you here, now and may GOD keep you well. there are many claiming to be sent by GOD, but just watch their fruit and you will know who their master truly is.
They will be four guys total, 2 good and 2 bad, the 2 bad ones will be running things, and the 2 good ones telling the world they are being lied to. the evil one can't hurt the good one until the last day. when you see the GOOD GUYS DIE, wait and watch, after the 3rd day they will rise to their feet and ascend into heaven, this will be the day of the rapture for the rest of GOD's elect. after these days, we will return and a great and final war will take place.

then the final 1000 year reign will begin as CHRIST AS THE KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS. he will rule with an iron fist of love. only the truly saved will return. we have a lot more cool things coming in the way of technology, flying cars and much more. the love of the woman will return to love her man as it was long ago. a world one would not recognize, nothing like what you see now in this sad place. she will find joy back in her heart and happiness at her fingertips, now that the true path is back under her feet...

ticon888

“The fundamental problem with intelligent design is that you can’t use it to explain the natural world. It is essentially a negative argument. Followers of ID state evolution doesn’t work therefore the designer did it. Evolution doesn’t work therefore ID wins by default. But when you ask them: What does ID tell you about nature? Does it tell you what the designer did? Does it tell you what the designer used to design something with? Does it tell you what purpose the designer had for designing something? Does it tell you when the designer did it? Why the designer did it?
ID doesn’t tell you anything, hence a negative argument. You can’t build a science on a negative argument”.
Eugenie C. Scott, National Center for Science Education

Enzu

It´s funny how religious people who are supposed to be all about love and forgivness etc. turns to violence as soon as they don´t get what they want...

leighatkins22

'Religious' people aren't necessarily about love & forgiveness - they're just about religion which is just about ritual (like - my dad shaved religiously every morning).
I once heard a line in a movie where the bloke said 'just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I can't be a good Catholic' and I couldn't have put it better myself...