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Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Originally Posted by willpell

Unlikely, given how unnatural it was for any Goblin to take adventuring class levels, according to anyone but Fox and the Party. (I'm assuming that Young and Beautiful was an Adept, and that NPC classes are part of Goblin tradition.) But a Thuntemplate is always possible; Duv might actually be God-Blooded or have a Maglubiet variant of Lolth-touched. Half-Fiend seems unlikely though, since that would probably give her demonic bat wings instead of angel-style white feathered wings. Perhaps she's Half-Celestial as I suspected, with the alignment details waived for Rule of Cool.

1/2 celestial requires being born good, you can become evil later and keep the template.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Originally Posted by willpell

Unlikely, given how unnatural it was for any Goblin to take adventuring class levels, according to anyone but Fox and the Party. (I'm assuming that Young and Beautiful was an Adept, and that NPC classes are part of Goblin tradition.) But a Thuntemplate is always possible; Duv might actually be God-Blooded or have a Maglubiet variant of Lolth-touched. Half-Fiend seems unlikely though, since that would probably give her demonic bat wings instead of angel-style white feathered wings. Perhaps she's Half-Celestial as I suspected, with the alignment details waived for Rule of Cool.

That'd still require that A. a celestial had sex with Duv's other parent and yet B. she was raised the loyal daughter of a pantheon of evil gods. And given her mission statement and her belief that her template was granted by her god as a blessing, a refluffed Half-fiend or Thuntemplate is more likely than half-celestial.

After all, Erinyes have feathered wings, and Malgubliyet's right-hand guy lives in Baator.

Originally Posted by Chilingsworth

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

The Erinyes are the exception, yes, I did think of that (and they're rumored to be corrupted angels so it fits nicely). But Duv's wing is white, though of course that could just be because the rest of her is. Oh, who's this Lieutenant and what's he doing in Baator? Does this have anything to do with the fact that Bugbears get their own god but Hoblins don't?

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Originally Posted by willpell

The Erinyes are the exception, yes, I did think of that (and they're rumored to be corrupted angels so it fits nicely). But Duv's wing is white, though of course that could just be because the rest of her is. Oh, who's this Lieutenant and what's he doing in Baator? Does this have anything to do with the fact that Bugbears get their own god but Hoblins don't?

Hobgoblins do in fact have their own god (Nomog-Geaya) who watches over them and serves as their patron. The goblin god of cooperation and teamwork is Bargrivyek, who serves Malgubliyet (who is, incidentally, the god of caution and mistrust) as a steady right hand. Bargivyek is known as the Peacekeeper; he is Lawful Evil and makes his home in the Nine Hells of Baator in the ironically-named Peaceful Lands. Bargrivyek emphasizes unity to all of goblinkind and works to smooth over infighting between various tribes of goblins or species of goblinoid by directing them at their 'true' enemies, such as orcs, elves, humans, gnolls, and pretty much anyone that pushes goblins around. Through him, Malgubliyet politics with Baator, just as he uses the god of bugbears as a liason to the Abyss.

EDIT: There's no canonical color for Erinyes wings, but the one pictured is white.

Last edited by Lord_Gareth; 2012-10-07 at 11:05 AM.

Originally Posted by Chilingsworth

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

That'd still require that A. a celestial had sex with Duv's other parent and yet B. she was raised the loyal daughter of a pantheon of evil gods. And given her mission statement and her belief that her template was granted by her god as a blessing, a refluffed Half-fiend or Thuntemplate is more likely than half-celestial.

After all, Erinyes have feathered wings, and Malgubliyet's right-hand guy lives in Baator.

Or C: Both of Duv's parents were Goblin, and Malgubliyet, a celestial being as a god, blessed their child with a portion of his own divine powers so she may lead the goblin people as the chosen one.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Or C: Both of Duv's parents were Goblin, and Malgubliyet, a celestial being as a god, blessed their child with a portion of his own divine powers so she may lead the goblin people as the chosen one.

I'm unsure if you're familiar with how the term 'celestial' is defined in the D&D cosmos (and the one Thunt is using, for that matter), but that's not precisely how it works.

To speak in general terms, planes in D&D are classified as Material (that's the one we live on), Transitive (Astral, Ethereal, and Shadow planes), Inner planes (Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Demi-Elemental, Quasi-Elemental), and Outer Planes which are further subdivided into Upper Planes (the [Good]-aligned ones), Middle Planes (neither good nor evil) and the Lower Planes (the [Evil]-aligned ones).

Now, a being from one of the Upper Planes that's not an enhanced animal or a Petitioner (that is, a dead person) is known as a Celestial. They all share the inherent quality of being physically composed, in some part, of pure goodness.

A being from the Lower Planes that is not an enhanced animal or a Petitioner (that is, again, a dead person) is known as a Fiend. Fiends all share the inherent quality of being physically composed, in some part, of pure evil.

Malgubliyet and other evil-aligned gods are all technically Fiends, though the whole 'being a god' thing takes precedence. His residence on Acheron (Law tainted by evil) marks him as a denizen of the Lower Planes; no part of his nature is 'celestial' and indeed anything to do with Celestials is anathema to him. The half-celestial template, bestowed on Duv, would give her powers entirely suited to destroying evil, with such examples as Malgubliyet's entire church and most of Goblinkind. In addition to being crowd-unsafe from the goblins' point of view, this would also actually harm Duv herself if she was evil - it's crowd-unsafe for her, too.

Meanwhile, Half-Fiend powers are very good at destroying Good, and are crowd-safe for goblins, causing it to make more sense all around.

However, there are some other options for what template she might have. Aside from Thunt!Template, she may be a Winged creature (though that seems a little passe), or she might be a God-Blooded creature (though why she'd have wings at that point is a total mystery). All of those options remain open and would make sense. It's just that there is no way in any flaming hell that Half-Celestial would.

Originally Posted by Chilingsworth

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

...Which part of my post are you actually objecting to?

For starters, the fact that her "mission statement" implies that that current "mission" was given to her by her god and is inherent to the "alignment" she was "born" with, and not a matter of own choice.

As for "being raised the loyal daughter of a pantheon of evil gods" I guess that means Young and Beautiful and Chief are "evil" as well? And probably the rest of the GAP, although those two are the only ones offhand I can remember directly calling on Muglubiyet.

So I suppose that makes Goblinslayer (and Kore) correct, and everyone including orphaned dwarf children "associated" with evil should be destroyed just because that's what "the book" says?

Duv was raised as the loyal daughter of Goblin gods, and why not? She was a Goblin! Since we don't get to choose our parents, we don't get to choose what their culture is, or how others label it. We just get to deal with it and make our own choices as we go.

Last edited by ChowGuy; 2012-10-07 at 04:15 PM.

ChowGuy - The LaChoy Dragon - Servant of the Tiger and disciple of the WandererThe Hall of Wonders - HeavenGames Fantasy Role Playing and Creative Writing Forum.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Originally Posted by ChowGuy

For starters, the fact that her "mission statement" implies that that current "mission" was given to her by her god and is inherent to the "alignment" she was "born" with, and not a matter of own choice.

As for "being raised the loyal daughter of a pantheon of evil gods" I guess that means Young and Beautiful and Chief are "evil" as well? And probably the rest of the GAP, although those two are the only ones offhand I can remember directly calling on Muglubiyet.

So I suppose that makes Goblinslayer (and Kore) correct, and everyone including orphaned dwarf children "associated" with evil should be destroyed just because that's what "the book" says?

Slow down there buddy. You're reading quite a bit more into this than exists. Let's start:

I didn't say Duv was born with an alignment. In point of fact, I stated that Celestial and Fiends are born with alignments, and then separately stated the pros and cons of the Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend templates. Now, lemme go back into more detail:

Malgubliyet is evil. There really is no arguing this - his alignment is listed as evil, he grants the Evil domain to his clerics, dude's evil. With that in mind, with gods that doesn't always spell the be-all, end-all of their relationship with their worshipers. For one thing, Malgubliyet can have non-evil clerics; for another, Malgubliyet's portfolios (spheres of divine authority) are not, of necessity, evil in and of themselves. However, it does affect goblin culture quite a bit.

Consider: Malgubliyet is the supreme god of goblinkind, and only Bugbears really have any division on this issue (their god doesn't consider goblins the equals of his worshipers). You will find his priests among all three species of goblinkind, and by far the most common alignment for them is Neutral Evil. Malgubliyet has two Lawful Evil allies and one Chaotic Evil semi-ally (and by 'ally' I mean 'vicious rival who happens to be in the same pantheon) and is therefore more likely to have Lawful Evil clerics than True Neutral or Chaotic Evil ones. That's 3/4 alignments as being evil for those he favors spiritually. While goblins are not born evil, there is a strong tendency towards apathetic evil in their culture - that is, Malgubliyet's doctrines actively encourage a selfish disregard for non-goblin life.

However, the goblin version of evil is normally a fairly far cry from the blood-drinking, puppy kicking evil you'll see in other parts of the D&Dverse. Goblins are selfish and mistrustful, not necessarily malevolent. Goblins will honor trade agreements and alliances - as long as those agreements and alliances favor them. They don't start wars unless they think that war is the best way to get what they want or need. They deal equitably with other powers. Malgubliyet's doctrines emphasize preparedness, cooperation with goblinkind, mistrust of outsiders and having contingencies - he can be described as 'cold-blooded', not frothing. I was wholly unsurprised that Duv began her quest by not inciting violence, because she would have gained nothing by doing so.

However, in addition to all of this Malgubliyet is the god of goblins. All goblins - good, evil, lawful, chaotic, Malgubliyet has authority over and responsibility for them all. Malgubliyet and his allies are currently (Grayhawk timeline, as of 3.5) making strides to maintain and recapture the worship of non-evil factions of goblinkind, and he's doing so by being tolerant of reinterpretations of his doctrines. No, a CG goblin can never be a cleric of Malgubliyet, but he might be part of a sect of his church that emphasizes cooperative preparedness against disaster. No, an LN goblin probably won't receive direct divine favor, but he won't find his worship turned away. If other races threaten a conclave of non-traditional goblins, Malgubliyet and his followers offer their aid. Whether or not such good-aligned goblins accept it is, I suppose, on them and their consciences.

Duv wasn't born with an alignment. No goblin is. But it's pretty clear that the Viper clan exhibits a lot of the traits that make Malgubliyet and his typical devoted followers evil, including a disregard for the life and dignity of other sapient beings. At the moment, I'd call Duv a devoted NE follower of her patron god, dedicated to the advancement of goblinkind at the cost of any races that get in her way. Whether or not that changes is between her and her patron.

And that's the key thing that makes Kore and those like him wrong - these people DO have the capacity to change. Just because their gods are evil (and they are, without exception, evil) doesn't mean THEY have to be. Yes, they USUALLY are - but usually isn't enough to appoint oneself judge, jury, and executioner. Kore treats all sapient beings like their fates are set in stone, and is evil as a result, just as the ranger totally failed to respect the lives, dignity or even sapience of his victims and was thus also evil. You just need to remember that this works both ways - evil done to evil beings is still evil, and just because large numbers of goblins are legitimately the victims of these people doesn't automatically mean they're good.

As far as the GAP, we know at least one is good-aligned and the others possibly are as well. They seem to have come from a tribe mostly concerned with tradition and survival, rather than the advancement of goblinkind and piety, which means that they never really got indoctrinated into the beliefs that make Malgubliyet's church a majority-evil organization. Young and Beautiful was probably TN, and seemed to be a fairly decent leader as far as those things went. Yet another example of why smite-on-sight is not acceptable.

Originally Posted by Chilingsworth

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

Slow down there buddy. You're reading quite a bit more into this than exists.

No actually, what I "read into" your post is that it was "unlikely" (your word) that Duv could have the Half-celestial template which (per Starbuck II's earlier post "requires being born good, [but] you can become evil later and keep the template), presumably since as a goblin with a currently evil mission statement and raised as a "loyal daughter of an evil pantheon" (again, your words) it's "unlikely" that she could have been "born good" (whatever that means).

My point is that that argument devolves to "behavior is dependent on the alignments we are born with end of discussion,"(*) which is precisely the idea the entire comic challenges. I further point out that the very "mission statement" you refer to indictes that she did not in fact start out to enslave the world, whatever the "pantheon" or current behavior of her tribe after perhaps some generations of her leadership-by-tradition later says, but later became evil. That does not in any way preclude the above stated requirements of the template.

As for the rest, you're pretty much just repeating what I said myself:

Duv was raised as the loyal daughter of Goblin gods, and why not? She was a Goblin! Since we don't get to choose our parents, we don't get to choose what their culture is, or how others label it. We just get to deal with it and make our own choices as we go.

But as for the whole question though of "What 'template' does she have according to 'the book'" it's irrelevant. She has whatever characteristics the author wants her to have. It's not like he's never homebrewed a character before.

(*)ETA: or if you prefer "Behavior is dictated by alignment, rather then the other way around" but the principle still holds.

Last edited by ChowGuy; 2012-10-07 at 05:30 PM.

ChowGuy - The LaChoy Dragon - Servant of the Tiger and disciple of the WandererThe Hall of Wonders - HeavenGames Fantasy Role Playing and Creative Writing Forum.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Originally Posted by ChowGuy

No actually, what I "read into" your post is that it was "unlikely" (your word) that Duv could have the Half-celestial template which (per Starbuck II's earlier post "requires being born good, [but] you can become evil later and keep the template), presumably since as a goblin with a currently evil mission statement and raised as a "loyal daughter of an evil pantheon" (again, your words) it's "unlikely" that she could have been "born good" (whatever that means).

My point is that that argument devolves to "behavior is dependent on the alignments we are born with end of discussion," which is precisely the idea the entire comic challenges. I further point out that the very "mission statement" you refer to indictes that she did not in fact start out to enslave the world, whatever the "pantheon" or current behavior of her tribe after perhaps some generations of her leadership-by-tradition later says, but later became evil. That does not in any way preclude the above stated requirements of the template.

Umm...no. That's not the reason I gave for Half-Celestial being unlikely. The reasons are, and I shall repeat, these:

1. Malgubliyet is evil, and thus cannot (or will not) grant the template.

2. Most of Malgubliyet's church is evil, and thus granting the Half-Celestial template is a bad idea because it comes packed to the gills with crowd-unsafe weaponry.

3. Half-Celestial pretty explicitly requires that a Celestial (either a [Good]-aligned god or a normal Celestial) be involved, and even if any of them by some miracle owed Malgubliyet a favor there's no way they'd just give him one of their children.

4. There's other templates that therefore fit the situation and deity in question much better.

Had nothing to do with Duv's alignment. I postulate that she's currently evil. I never said or implied that she was born that way.

Originally Posted by Chilingsworth

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

Bonus points for Grem to survive only to find out that touching Finger-infected flesh is as bad as touching Mr. Finger itself.

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

I feel so warm and fuzzy inside, like a character I hate is very shortly about to drown in his own blood.

Originally Posted by Chilingsworth

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.