Are you familiar with martial arts? How do students become better skilled? By facing opponents. Sometimes facing opponents stronger and better skilled than they are.

Satan and his minions can be used by God for good in someone's life if it brings that person into a better understanding of God and their relationship to Him and others.

And what is the ultimate purpose of martial arts? To defeat those who would harm us. If we would never meet anyone who would harm us, what would be the point of those arts?

Similarly, the "goal" of troubles in life, you say, is to better understand god and their relationship with him. But what you are saying then is that the best possible way to get to know someone is by them arranging for bad things to happen to you. Really? You don't think that the best way to understand someone would be for them to sit down in person and talk to you and answer your questions?

When YOU want someone to understand YOU.....what methods do you use?

- - - - -

Incidentally, you mentioned free will. Why do you regard it as so important to have?

Save them from what? Oh yeah. His own arbitrarily selected rules, his anger management issues and his frequent habit or overreacting.

For being an all-powerful being/entity, Yahweh behaves very human. Spiteful, vindictive, jealous and egotistical. It almost seems like his behavior and manners were no more advanced than the culture that was writing about him. Odd that.

But at the time of the choice, Adam was missing some critical information. Knowledge of good and evil was supposedly not there until the forbidden fruit was actually eaten, so hypothetically neither Adam nor Eve would not know whether eating the fruit was good or bad, or whether disobedience was good or bad, or even what "good" and "bad" meant. There's certainly nothing in Genesis 3 itself that suggests that Adam or Eve were warned about the potential effects on future generations, and IIRC the only Old Testament allusion to Original Sin is Psalm 51:5.

From a non-Christian point of view, at very least it appears that the Biblical god used questionable methods for teaching morality to his two brand-new humans. The idea of "Do what I command, because to disobey is wrong" also seems a bit subjective.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying,'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'” (Genesis 2:15-17, ESV)

How much more information did Adam and Eve need? They were given the choice of obeying or not obeying, and they were given the consequences of disobedience. If you have ever raised any children of your own, how much information do you give a 2-year old in order to for them to begin making decisions for their own welfare?

Can you tell me your theory of how humans decide what is right and what is wrong?

As I said, that varies depending on the kind of moral reasoning used by the person in question. Some people don't think much about it at all.

In case you're asking for my theory of how humans can come to logical decisions of moral judgment, then that's simpler. We use our values are premises upon which logic yields judgments. Even for those who don't think much about their morality, it's still their values that they're going to act on.

This is what actually happens. It is also why gods tend to be forced into agreement with the believers who create them.

So in your reasoning, morality is relative? My premise that by knocking someone over the head with a stick and taking their wallet will improve my life by adding money for food, clothing, and shelter to my wallet makes such an action a good moral choice for me even though others may disagree?

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A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Are you familiar with martial arts? How do students become better skilled? By facing opponents. Sometimes facing opponents stronger and better skilled than they are.

Satan and his minions can be used by God for good in someone's life if it brings that person into a better understanding of God and their relationship to Him and others.

And what is the ultimate purpose of martial arts? To defeat those who would harm us. If we would never meet anyone who would harm us, what would be the point of those arts?

Trials in life, decisions that we make, unforeseen circumstances - these are things that have the potential to harm us, especially if we make poor decisions during these times of testing.

Quote

Similarly, the "goal" of troubles in life, you say, is to better understand god and their relationship with him. But what you are saying then is that the best possible way to get to know someone is by them arranging for bad things to happen to you. Really? You don't think that the best way to understand someone would be for them to sit down in person and talk to you and answer your questions?

When YOU want someone to understand YOU.....what methods do you use?

What better way to find out what's really inside yourself than to get squeezed? Then, when you see what you are really made of, you can compare it to God's character.

God did come down and answer questions. He left a whole big book of answers. Some people come to it with preconceived notions though and can't glean truth from it because of their prejudices.

- - - - -

Quote

Incidentally, you mentioned free will. Why do you regard it as so important to have?

Refresh my memory, what did I say about free will? Do you consider free will important? If so, why?

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A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Save them from what? Oh yeah. His own arbitrarily selected rules, his anger management issues and his frequent habit or overreacting.

For being an all-powerful being/entity, Yahweh behaves very human. Spiteful, vindictive, jealous and egotistical. It almost seems like his behavior and manners were no more advanced than the culture that was writing about him. Odd that.

So tell me again why Yahweh is worthy of worship if he exists...?

If there is a God of the Bible and He did create the universe from nothing, do you believe that you have done something that would give you the intelligence and moral superiority to pass judgment on his decisions? If so, please share. Thanks.

Save them from what? Oh yeah. His own arbitrarily selected rules, his anger management issues and his frequent habit or overreacting.

For being an all-powerful being/entity, Yahweh behaves very human. Spiteful, vindictive, jealous and egotistical. It almost seems like his behavior and manners were no more advanced than the culture that was writing about him. Odd that.

So tell me again why Yahweh is worthy of worship if he exists...?

If there is a God of the Bible and He did create the universe from nothing, do you believe that you have done something that would give you the intelligence and moral superiority to pass judgment on his decisions? If so, please share. Thanks.

A child has more intelligence and moral superiority than Yahweh. A child is disgusted by the bible. I was.

If you get a chance, can you direct me to a website that lists that many Christian denominations? It would be fascinating to see it. Which denomination did you receive your instruction from? Are you still involved with that denomination?

But at the time of the choice, Adam was missing some critical information. Knowledge of good and evil was supposedly not there until the forbidden fruit was actually eaten, so hypothetically neither Adam nor Eve would not know whether eating the fruit was good or bad, or whether disobedience was good or bad, or even what "good" and "bad" meant. There's certainly nothing in Genesis 3 itself that suggests that Adam or Eve were warned about the potential effects on future generations, and IIRC the only Old Testament allusion to Original Sin is Psalm 51:5.

From a non-Christian point of view, at very least it appears that the Biblical god used questionable methods for teaching morality to his two brand-new humans. The idea of "Do what I command, because to disobey is wrong" also seems a bit subjective.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying,'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'” (Genesis 2:15-17, ESV)

How much more information did Adam and Eve need? They were given the choice of obeying or not obeying, and they were given the consequences of disobedience. If you have ever raised any children of your own, how much information do you give a 2-year old in order to for them to begin making decisions for their own welfare?

A two-year old would not know what you mean by "die" "good" or "evil." Adam and Eve were the equivalent of 2-year olds at that point. Well, actually, to be more accurate, they were more like dogs. Animals do not have the knowledge of good or evil (they are incapable of being either--they are amoral) and most don't (as far as we know) have a sense of mortality. So Adam and Eve were truly incapable of understanding what the heck God was talking about.

Plus, only Adam was given those instructions. You notice, Eve wasn't around at that point. God never told HER to not eat from the tree. Presumably Adam told her? Well, you know how THAT must have gone over. Why the heck would or should Eve listen to him?

So the biblical God was teaching morality lessons to beings that were amoral at the time. Like teaching a cat to feel bad about eating a mouse or scratching a child. A lesson that simply would not compute.

I actually think the Eden story is a quite interesting parable/folktale to explain the difference between human beings and animals when it comes to moral beliefs/knowledge but it IS just a folk tale after all...

A two-year old would not know what you mean by "die" "good" or "evil." Adam and Eve were the equivalent of 2-year olds at that point. Well, actually, to be more accurate, they were more like dogs. Animals do not have the knowledge of good or evil (they are incapable of being either--they are amoral) and most don't (as far as we know) have a sense of mortality. So Adam and Eve were truly incapable of understanding what the heck God was talking about.

Plus, only Adam was given those instructions. You notice, Eve wasn't around at that point. God never told HER to not eat from the tree. Presumably Adam told her? Well, you know how THAT must have gone over. Why the heck would or should Eve listen to him?

So the biblical God was teaching morality lessons to beings that were amoral at the time. Like teaching a cat to feel bad about eating a mouse or scratching a child. A lesson that simply would not compute.

I actually think the Eden story is a quite interesting parable/folktale to explain the difference between human beings and animals when it comes to moral beliefs/knowledge but it IS just a folk tale after all...

According to the account in Genesis, Adam had enough intelligence to name all of the animals and realize that bestiality was not an option. He also knew how to tend to and work in the garden before Eve was created. Then, when God did form her, he had enough intelligence to know that she was made for him and his expression was "Whoa Man!!!" and you know the rest of the story.

But if you only think it is a folk talk, then we really don't have a lot more territory to cover.

How about you explain your beliefs of how human beings came into existence and then let's talk about folk tales.

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A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Can you tell me your theory of how humans decide what is right and what is wrong?

As I said, that varies depending on the kind of moral reasoning used by the person in question. Some people don't think much about it at all.

In case you're asking for my theory of how humans can come to logical decisions of moral judgment, then that's simpler. We use our values are premises upon which logic yields judgments. Even for those who don't think much about their morality, it's still their values that they're going to act on.

This is what actually happens. It is also why gods tend to be forced into agreement with the believers who create them.

So in your reasoning, morality is relative? My premise that by knocking someone over the head with a stick and taking their wallet will improve my life by adding money for food, clothing, and shelter to my wallet makes such an action a good moral choice for me even though others may disagree?

People who pretend to have moral authority do this all the time,the stick they use is a law allowing them to steal your money without the use of the stick. They just tell you,you have to pay or go to jail. It's much like your God except jail is hell in this regard. You are confusing power with love,without the threat of hell,what has this God character got?

« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 11:09:09 PM by 12 Monkeys »

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

People who pretend to have moral authority do this all the time,the stick they use is a law allowing them to steal your money without the use of the stick. They just tell you,you have to pay or go to jail. It's much like your God except jail is hell in this regard. You are confusing power with love,without the threat pf hell,what has this God character got?

A two-year old would not know what you mean by "die" "good" or "evil." Adam and Eve were the equivalent of 2-year olds at that point. Well, actually, to be more accurate, they were more like dogs. Animals do not have the knowledge of good or evil (they are incapable of being either--they are amoral) and most don't (as far as we know) have a sense of mortality. So Adam and Eve were truly incapable of understanding what the heck God was talking about.

Plus, only Adam was given those instructions. You notice, Eve wasn't around at that point. God never told HER to not eat from the tree. Presumably Adam told her? Well, you know how THAT must have gone over. Why the heck would or should Eve listen to him?

So the biblical God was teaching morality lessons to beings that were amoral at the time. Like teaching a cat to feel bad about eating a mouse or scratching a child. A lesson that simply would not compute.

I actually think the Eden story is a quite interesting parable/folktale to explain the difference between human beings and animals when it comes to moral beliefs/knowledge but it IS just a folk tale after all...

According to the account in Genesis, Adam had enough intelligence to name all of the animals and realize that bestiality was not an option. He also knew how to tend to and work in the garden before Eve was created. Then, when God did form her, he had enough intelligence to know that she was made for him and his expression was "Whoa Man!!!" and you know the rest of the story.

But if you only think it is a folk talk, then we really don't have a lot more territory to cover.

How about you explain your beliefs of how human beings came into existence and then let's talk about folk tales.

We were discovered by the Raven,hiding in a giant clam shell on Naikoon beach,the only difference is YOU actually BELIEVE your story to be true,while calling all other stories Myth,sad really.

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

BTW nothing better than a hit-and-run theist who posts a couple of days every few months calling a regular on these boards a troll

If all you do is send out inflammatory remarks with the hope of inciting other inflammatory remarks, then you are a troll.

You ridicule the creation story yet you have no intelligent explanation for how humankind came into existence.

Peace and grace 12 Monkeys. I would like to have an intelligent, rational conversation with you, but if all you are going to do is troll, then please don't be offended if I sometimes ignore your remarks.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Similarly, the "goal" of troubles in life, you say, is to better understand god and their relationship with him. But what you are saying then is that the best possible way to get to know someone is by them arranging for bad things to happen to you. Really? You don't think that the best way to understand someone would be for them to sit down in person and talk to you and answer your questions?

When YOU want someone to understand YOU.....what methods do you use?

What better way to find out what's really inside yourself than to get squeezed? Then, when you see what you are really made of, you can compare it to God's character.

God did come down and answer questions. He left a whole big book of answers. Some people come to it with preconceived notions though and can't glean truth from it because of their prejudices.

Maybe you missed the direct question I asked there. I'll repeat it for you.

When YOU want someone to understand YOU.....what methods do you use?

Very glad you mentioned the Bible. So....your point is that every person should read the Bible and get the exact same understanding of Yahweh's character? Except that doesn't happen, as you point out......hmmm, I wonder why such an intelligent being would choose as a method of communication one that is clearly not well suited to getting his message across.....

Incidentally, you mentioned free will. Why do you regard it as so important to have?

Refresh my memory, what did I say about free will? Do you consider free will important? If so, why?

Apologies, I thought you mentioned free will as being necessary for us to be able to choose, as opposed to just following god by default. If you don't regard free will as a vital part of your theology then we can forget about it.

A two-year old would not know what you mean by "die" "good" or "evil." Adam and Eve were the equivalent of 2-year olds at that point. Well, actually, to be more accurate, they were more like dogs. Animals do not have the knowledge of good or evil (they are incapable of being either--they are amoral) and most don't (as far as we know) have a sense of mortality. So Adam and Eve were truly incapable of understanding what the heck God was talking about.

Plus, only Adam was given those instructions. You notice, Eve wasn't around at that point. God never told HER to not eat from the tree. Presumably Adam told her? Well, you know how THAT must have gone over. Why the heck would or should Eve listen to him?

So the biblical God was teaching morality lessons to beings that were amoral at the time. Like teaching a cat to feel bad about eating a mouse or scratching a child. A lesson that simply would not compute.

I actually think the Eden story is a quite interesting parable/folktale to explain the difference between human beings and animals when it comes to moral beliefs/knowledge but it IS just a folk tale after all...

According to the account in Genesis, Adam had enough intelligence to name all of the animals and realize that bestiality was not an option. He also knew how to tend to and work in the garden before Eve was created. Then, when God did form her, he had enough intelligence to know that she was made for him and his expression was "Whoa Man!!!" and you know the rest of the story.

But if you only think it is a folk talk, then we really don't have a lot more territory to cover.

How about you explain your beliefs of how human beings came into existence and then let's talk about folk tales.

Based on current knowledge, I got natural selection, random chance and chemistry. Nothing supernatural.

A two-year old would not know what you mean by "die" "good" or "evil." Adam and Eve were the equivalent of 2-year olds at that point. Well, actually, to be more accurate, they were more like dogs. Animals do not have the knowledge of good or evil (they are incapable of being either--they are amoral) and most don't (as far as we know) have a sense of mortality. So Adam and Eve were truly incapable of understanding what the heck God was talking about.

Plus, only Adam was given those instructions. You notice, Eve wasn't around at that point. God never told HER to not eat from the tree. Presumably Adam told her? Well, you know how THAT must have gone over. Why the heck would or should Eve listen to him?

So the biblical God was teaching morality lessons to beings that were amoral at the time. Like teaching a cat to feel bad about eating a mouse or scratching a child. A lesson that simply would not compute.

I actually think the Eden story is a quite interesting parable/folktale to explain the difference between human beings and animals when it comes to moral beliefs/knowledge but it IS just a folk tale after all...

According to the account in Genesis, Adam had enough intelligence to name all of the animals and realize that bestiality was not an option. He also knew how to tend to and work in the garden before Eve was created. Then, when God did form her, he had enough intelligence to know that she was made for him and his expression was "Whoa Man!!!" and you know the rest of the story.

But if you only think it is a folk talk, then we really don't have a lot more territory to cover.

How about you explain your beliefs of how human beings came into existence and then let's talk about folk tales.

I know the word "myth" is thrown around quite freely today and is implied to mean false story. But I like the original meaning which meant a story to explain the unexplainable.

How much more information did Adam and Eve need? They were given the choice of obeying or not obeying, and they were given the consequences of disobedience. If you have ever raised any children of your own, how much information do you give a 2-year old in order to for them to begin making decisions for their own welfare?

First off, I would give an actual, accurate consequence (based on their ability to understand). Your god, however, lies by saying they would die. And don't bother with the "but he meant spiritual death" crap, because it's exactly that. He said "you will surely die." He did not say "you will surely die a spiritual death." die = die.

Second...if god was so irked that they ate the fruit that he put an angel to guard the tree of life after they ate, why didn't he GUARD THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE BEFORE THEY ATE FROM IT?!?!? Would have saved a lot of time, effort, and heartache.

honestly, the diety you follow is a real jerk.

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...religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash...anyone who doesn't show...deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

~Astreja

To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place.

I would say that if you think that you have no free will in the case of the sniper, you and I are at a pass. While your free will in the situation is small it is certainly not non existent. Think of power theory like a limit. As the power of someone who is trying to harm you increases over yours, the effectiveness of your will approaches 0. It does not in fact reach 0. THe only way it could reach 0 is if that persons power was absolute, like an all powerful god. But please explain a moral way on which God could balance power through the 7 billion people on this planet....

This must be the most ridiculous, backwoods, upside-down, and irrational way to say shit happens I have ever heard. Is this "power theory" a real thing/theory or is it a deep arse pull?So basically if you take away the silly power meter numbers in this example all you are saying is that if you don’t figure out there is a sniper before he shoots you, you are as good as shot. So instead we have a free will meter assigned that is based on your power in life/will. Thus whoever is more powerful wins...

Are you familiar with martial arts? How do students become better skilled? By facing opponents. Sometimes facing opponents stronger and better skilled than they are.

You mean sparring? Practicing techniques in a controlled environment to ensure no one gets hurt. Or perhaps when a promoter and your coach (sensei or whatever) decide to give you a challenging title shot? Again in a controlled environment. As opposed to a spiritual fight to the death with the loser being dropped into the pits of hell to be tortured forever.

Are you familiar with martial arts? No really what do you practice/ used to practice!? (off topic I know)

The same two problems keep in appearing in the Forum. I see a constant assumption that people are capable of being "innocent," but if they aren't innocent, then God is evil for setting people up where they can't be innocent. Therefore, those with this view seem satisfied that they have all the information that they need in order to assert their moral superiority to God.

It is appalling to think that God did not make them innocent or perfect, so He must be evil, because no one wants to be less than perfect, right?

No. It is your defence that is wrong. God creates evil and looses it upon his children. God created Satan, God created the Serpent in the Garden, and God clearly states:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Jer:18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

The modern fluff-bunny Christian, the Christian who picks and chooses which parts of the Bible he most agrees with, the Christian who creates a god provided by selected verses, the so-called Christian like you, usually ignores these very clear statements.

Today, it is not popular to obey God, but, instead, to obey a god you personally create. That is how it is possible to have a "personal relationship" with Yahweh or The Trinity as you now have no choice but to call your alleged, monotheistic deity.

As a matter of fact and Biblical evidence, Yahweh has an evil aspect to him - just in case the Christian misses that when he reads the Bible, Yahweh tells us in the clearest way and, as He is immensely intelligent, He ensures that His Message is absolutely understandable, even for us mere mortals.

If you deny it, put simply, it is not a matter of discussion, it is a fact and you are wrong. Well, either that or you have chosen your own hand-crafted god. If you have done that, your god can have any attributes you require him to have.

But please, do not tell us that Yahweh has not an easily-discernible, evil aspect to Him.

If there is a God of the Bible and He did create the universe from nothing, do you believe that you have done something that would give you the intelligence and moral superiority to pass judgment on his decisions? If so, please share. Thanks.

Even on my worst days, I am far more intelligent than and extra-morally superior to the slacker as described in the bible and by his fanboys. How can you read the bible and not see Yahweh as a complete imbecile?

Even IF, I wasn't qualified to pass judgement on his decisions, I can still see that he behaves and reacts worse than most humans. So, I will ask again, Why is Yahweh worthy of worship?

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying,'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'” (Genesis 2:15-17, ESV)

How much more information did Adam and Eve need? They were given the choice of obeying or not obeying, and they were given the consequences of disobedience. If you have ever raised any children of your own, how much information do you give a 2-year old in order to for them to begin making decisions for their own welfare?

"So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man." -Genesis 2:21-22(NASB)

Why do men have nipples?

There are three popular ways to look at the Book of Genesis:

1) Genesis contains ancient mythical stories that were created by ancient people in order to attempt to answer many good questions about why things are the way they are.

2) Genesis is comprised entirely of absolutely true events.

3) Many of the stories in Genesis are allegorical lessons that have been given to us by the all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful, and all-present Creator of the Universe Himself.

Number 1) is by far the most probable of the 3 explanations.

It's crazy that I am even attempting to explain something that shouldn't need explaining. Even crazier, the most probable outcome of my attempt to explain is that you will not agree with me that number 1) is the most probable of the 3.