Lily wrote:Because of the reasoning behind it:I hestitate to give them away (it seems wrong to expose others to lies that could cause a stumbling block). If I throw them in the dump the guy that works there will just scavange them (and because I know he would, it would be the same as if I had gave them to him)

It's not up to us to make choices about what others expose themselves to. By being so reluctant to even through them away, she is saying she does not trust anybody to be able to use and learn from the information, but instead have it as a "stumbling block".

The reasoning behind it is what I admire. If she feels she would be honoring the Lord by disposing of these books so that no one else will have them, then I am absolutely supportive of her decision to do so. Books are not to be idolized above the Lord.

Regardless of her reasoning, she is not demanding copies of these books to be removed from a public library and she is not keeping anyone from accessing other copies, unless she has the last surviving copies and I seriously doubt that. Censoring and banning requires quite a bit more work that simply throwing a one personal copy of a book away.

No one is saying the books are idolized above the lord. But the lord gave us free will, and who are we to exercise our will over others? By hiding material away, it is saying that only one has the ability to choose his/her path, and the rest of mankind is too irresponsible to be burdened with such a choice.

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."
- M. MontessoriProud non-member of the HSLDA

My purpose is not to censor or ban any book or author. My concern comes into play over my own personal responsibility. If I knownly give someone something that I know may harm them - even if they could go and pick it up around the next corner themselves - am I not responsible for any harm done to them by my careless actions? I feel that I am. I also feel that God will hold me accountable for my actions as well.

Anyway, its getting really late and I better just say "thanks for all your feedback" and call it a night before I start babbling and misspelling every second word!

Oh, and a big thank you to seekingmylord for encouraging me to pray about this some more.

Lily, she is exercising her own free will over her own property. In exploring your opinion on the matter, would she not already be guilty just by hiding them away in her own home when she kept the books for her own enjoyment. So, just placing a book in one's own library causes one to be guilty of "hiding it away" from the general public, right?

I mean, the location of the books have not yet changed, only her perspective on them, so she now is purposely hiding them away and before she was... what? Purposely keeping them to herself? Purposely keeping them hidden away from others? How dare we keep books in our own homes because we are purposely keeping them from other people--determining what the other people can and cannot read by doing so!

The day we are forced to "share" our property, because to do otherwise would violate someone's free will to want/obtain our property, is the day our Bill of Rights is ripped to shreds and all things become property of the state!

=^..^=

Momagator, you are welcome. When you seek the Lord's heart on the matters, your perspective changes. Obviously, you have already experienced this as your desire for these books have changed because of your love for the Lord. I often lay my fleece before the Lord as Gideon and wait (the hardest part) for an answer from Him on matters of uncertainty. May the Lord bless you with the answer as you seek to please Him.

seekingmyLord wrote:Lily, she is exercising her own free will over her own property. In exploring your opinion on the matter, would she not already be guilty just by hiding them away in her own home when she kept the books for her own enjoyment. So, just placing a book in one's own library causes one to be guilty of "hiding it away" from the general public, right?

I mean, the location of the books have not yet changed, only her perspective on them, so she now is purposely hiding them away and before she was... what? Purposely keeping them to herself? Purposely keeping them hidden away from others? How dare we keep books in our own homes because we are purposely keeping them from other people--determining what the other people can and cannot read by doing so!

The day we are forced to "share" our property, because to do otherwise would violate someone's free will to want/obtain our property, is the day our Bill of Rights is ripped to shreds and all things become property of the state!

=^..^=

By determining what is going in a library, by secreting away books and making them disappear rather than be read, it is censorship. It would be the same as if you took a warehouse, locked it up, and refused to let the author's words out, for fear of "stumbling blocks". There is no such thing as a stumbling block that is the same for everyone, and by making your decisions based on the refusal of information, it is censorship. If your reason for keeping something on your bookshelf was because you liked it, or wanted it, or needed it, that is different than keeping it because you think YOU are the only one who is intelligent enough to understand and continue a faith in God after reading. It's akin to the Church, when they decided that the bible in the hands of laymen was too dangerous - it would cause them to stumble in their faith. You know what? There is no faith without strength. There is no strength without weakness, and overcoming it. To secret away information because you are afraid others would have "stumbling blocks" is saying that everyone around you is too weak, they cannot handle it because they don't have the strength you do.

Bah. The holier than thou attitude is the stumbling block here, not the books.

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

Lily, these are her own books! I don't know how else to say this, but as her property, she has the right to do with them as she wishes for whatever reason she wishes. I seriously doubt she was stockpiling them from what she shared with us. And, if she feels that the Lord is leading her to destroy them, then who are we to question that? People tend to overlook that free will gives us the freedom to seek and follow His will, even when it is against approval by the world.

I have got to say, Lily, after making a case against shaming children and showing respect towards others, what have you done other than trying to shame this woman with your accusations just to pressure her to do what you think she should do? If this is an example of how the no-spanking method works... I think it takes a more devious, less straightforward approach that I find rather unappealing.

I have got to say, Lily, after making a case against shaming children and showing respect towards others, what have you done other than trying to shame this woman with your accusations just to pressure her to do what you think she should do? If this is an example of how the no-spanking method works... I think it takes a more devious, less straightforward approach that I find rather unappealing.

What have I said that implies shame to this woman? My intention was not to shame her, but yours seems to be to continue to put words and actions on me that were not there to begin with. Please stop.

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

Lil wrote: that is different than keeping it because you think YOU are the only one who is intelligent enough to understand and continue a faith in God after reading.

Lil, I did not say this or even imply it. You are wrong in your assumptions of my motives, my thought process and my situation. I really don't have anything to add beyond that because ultimately I need to follow my heart regardless of what others say (or assume) and because seekingmylord has already defended me so beautifully!

Lily, it is one thing to be passionate about a subject and discuss it in generalities. It is quite another to accuse a particular person of censorship as you have repeated done. Do you not see the difference? Did you speak to the Lord once before you wrote these things? Did He tell you to accuse her in this manner? Did He not show you beyond the words she wrote to how in her heart she wishes to please Him?

What are a 1,000,000 books compared to the heart of one person in the eyes of the Lord?

It concerns me, Lily, deeply concerns me, that either you honestly do not recognize all the things you wrote in context directed at Momagator as accusative and offensive or you now choose to feign ignorance. Regardless, I will continue to pray for you.

seekingmyLord wrote:Lily, it is one thing to be passionate about a subject and discuss it in generalities. It is quite another to accuse a particular person of censorship as you have repeated done. Do you not see the difference? Did you speak to the Lord once before you wrote these things? Did He tell you to accuse her in this manner? Did He not show you beyond the words she wrote to how in her heart she wishes to please Him?

What are a 1,000,000 books compared to the heart of one person in the eyes of the Lord?

It concerns me, Lily, deeply concerns me, that either you honestly do not recognize all the things you wrote in context directed at Momagator as accusative and offensive or you now choose to feign ignorance. Regardless, I will continue to pray for you.

In every post you have made, you have attacked and accused with ideas that were never present, until you yourself presented them. You have continually put words in my mouth and reworked my language to suit your needs. If that is good Christianity, Madam, please do not pray for me. My god is not your god.

And if you feel the need for me to "discipline" here, rather than have an adult conversation, (since that was the connection you were implying before), I'm afraid you will not find it. Seek elsewhere.

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

Stellar, thanks for making us aware of something near to your heart. If I have discerned your heart correctly, I know that you are probably greatly disappointed with where this thread has gone.

Momagator, unfortunately, you became a target of something that goes much deeper than censorship issues. These are starkly contrasting world views that will be at war until the end of the ages. Follow what you know is right...I know you will

Actually I'm just amazed at how people can find a fight when they don't have to.

I've stated my views on banning books and on the very (to me) separate issue of discipline. (I personally don't believe in punishment.)

I've stayed quiet on certain other issues because to state my views wouldn't enrich anything and would just hurt folks. I've just watched this thing blow up. Hey, if that's what folks want to do with a thread I start, more power to them. It's never my intent. It's my opinion we could all try to get along better but whatever.

I'm rather pleased that there have been no true advocates of book banning. I expected there would be some here. That's been a nice surprise.

Stellar, thanks for making us aware of something near to your heart. If I have discerned your heart correctly, I know that you are probably greatly disappointed with where this thread has gone.

Momagator, unfortunately, you became a target of something that goes much deeper than censorship issues. These are starkly contrasting world views that will be at war until the end of the ages. Follow what you know is right...I know you will

Thanks for your insight and encouragement 4given.

I would like to apologize to everyone for pulling this thread so far from the original topic (even if Stellar doesn't seem to mind too much - thanks Stellar for your patience!).