For those who sincerely seek the truth, and only the truth. All are welcome, Christians, non-Christians, pagans, atheists, agnostics. etc. We hope you will find what you seek for.

Friday, August 05, 2005

What to Say to an Atheist

Direct from the Pope

This was shared by Pope Benedict XVI at EWTN cable channel.He was asked by people on the topic of"How do you prove God exists without seeing him directly?"

He answered this: You do not have to "see is to believe" as theonly source of truth. For example, you do not see my intellect orintelligence but know fully well that I possess intelligence.

You can measure the wind (invisible to eyes) with a barometer, etc.but you cannot do this to my intellect.This does not mean my intellect does not exist or ceases to exist.

God's existence is verified by the order and beauty of his creations,most epecially the creation of intelligent life.

INTELLIGENCE IS INVISIBLE YET STILL EXISTS

1) The results of chemistry/physics tests are physical in natureand can be verified by science because they are physical. Thus, wecan verify their existence.

2) Not so easy wih intelligence. It is invisible, is not physical and cannever be measured/verified physically by science. However, all of usagree intelligence exists in a human being.

The same principle with God applies. The scientific method has its limitsand only means there are things (intelligence for example) that cannotbe verified by the scientific method physically yet still exist.

This nullifies the atheist argument against God - that He cannot ordoes not exist just because the scientific method cannot be used todetect His existence.

God exists as much as intelligence exists, even though both cannotbe detected physically by the scientific method.

End of discussion.

THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD

The scientific method, I do not attack as unnecessary. It is, it has its important uses. What is fallacious is how atheists misuse it, (mostly out of ignorance),

These are the atheists who claim that only the scientific method should be the absolute rule or method in determining reality.

If only it did not have its limits, its weaknesses, this would be true. Reality is far different.

There are simple truths that science does well at, but not all truths. This is in part caused by the simple truth that science can not always be purely objective. The subjective opinion of scienttists is vital to science, but this is also part of its weakness. It is based on human observations, which do not always agree w/ each other.

Ex. 1) We need oxygen to live.

Science can repeat this in labs, and it is demonstrably true all the time. This is pure objectivity.

Ex. 2) There is order in the universe

This is an example where science reaches its limits. Some scientists would agree, some would disagree. Same w/ order in snowflakes, etc. This is subjective, prone to different definitions.

Coin In a Box

In most major debates with atheists, the "coin in a box" argument is something that always wins. It has never been refuted.

It defeats the atheist principle "The scientific method is the absolute rule on determining reality." Which simply means, someone or something must be detected by scientific instruments, or the five senses, or both to be considered reality. The atheists believe only physical evidence of someone/something is what they consider reality.

There are three levels of reality that make this atheist principle an utter failure:

1) Physical reality

The coin in a box. I hide it deep within the earth, and according to the atheists, if scientific instruments or their five senses cannot detect someone/something, it does not exist.

Well, I hold the coin in my hand and it is real.

"To see is to believe" never worked anyway.

2) Mental reality

Let's assume:

If every person in the world thought of an ice cream at exactly 1pm on the very same day, that is mental reality. It is just as real as physical reality. It occurred in a point in time, and would be part of historical reality.

Whether science detected their thoughts at that time or not can never make that mental reality disappear. So if you ask every person who thought of the ice cream if he/she really thought of an ice cream, you would of course get a positive answer.

But wait, by their definition of reality, the atheists MUST say this event did not occur. It cannot be verified because it it is impossible to detect their thoughts by a scientific instrument nor by the five senses.

So how can atheists even argue that only physical reality is reality?

3) Spiritual reality

The public miracles at Fatima were witnessed by a large number of people in real-time, a first of its kind. That and all miracles take a very long time to be confirmed as truth by the Catholic Church.

Why? Because the Church invites scientists (theist and atheist, agnostic, etc.) to do an independent study on the miracles. If you research online well, the names of these experts are given to the public. There is no conspiracy here, just truth.

These are supernatural events with physical evidence, credible observers and an independent scientific study encouraged by the Catholic Church.

Truth And Nothing But Truth

Another thing. Many atheists believe Christians simply believe inGod because they were "born" into religion. Sure, many are Christiansonly because of title, but do not actively seek out truth. But manyseek out the truth by making extensive research on differentreligions and beliefs to separate the truth from hype.

I am one of these "seekers of truth". I am convinced of the validityof the Christian faith (the Bible is historical and accurate, forone). Up to now, I still seek higher truths. Knowledge is never-ending.

In summary, what the great minds and great scientists have provenand believed is that, even from a purely logical point of view, thepossibility of God (an intelligent, Supreme being) existing is higherand more probable than a God not existing. The design of the universeand creation has semblance of intelligent design, not randomness.

Order cannot exist by natural means alone but only through thecontrol of a higher, intelligent being.

Example: You cannot build a house of cards by simply throwing cardsrandomly, it is impossible. The only way is to place it one by one,carefully, with intellect. Tell me anyone who can do so otherwise?Same goes with the creation of the universe, which has its owndefined set of laws, not a mass of chaos.

The universe is similar. It has certain patterns, fixed laws andprinciples. It may seem chaotic sometimes, but one can still observeorder taking place.

Truly, as Louis Pasteur stated "Little science separates man fromGod. Much science brings them back to Him." These great minds haveproven it and are convinced as well. Anybody who contradicts this isimplying he/she knows more about science and logic than these greatscientists. Please...

I'd honestly say that many Christians are ignorant of Christiantheology, but somehow hang on to their faith (by God's grace). Theymay or may not stand to an attack from outside forces like atheism,paganism, etc. Atheism is only one belief system, among many others.Of course, atheists will insist they are correct or "special" fromother beliefs because it is human nature (ego) to defend one'sbelief system and insist that it is the right one.

However, many Christians seek the truth (like you guys do, somethingwe have in common), and have experienced powerful arguments andattacks to our faith and which only served to strengthen our love andbelief of God. This is better, because we actually challenge ourfaith and theology to stand up to the strongest tests. Better thanbeing ignorant or in denial.

I've done my years of research and my Christian faithstands up as truth among pretenders. I've also studied extensively,arguments of the atheist and agnostic belief systems.-----------

THE GREAT DEBATE

It used to be that most atheists deny the existence of any form of"design". In debates with theists, theists would argue that "design"was self-evident in nature and the universe, life, etc. Atheists would dothe opposite, they would state that "design" or randomness wassubjective, that they only see randomness.

Say, a snowflake (seen under the lens) had "order and design" to a theistbut an atheist would state there was no design or order.

Now more atheists are saying something new: that design and order doesexist but that doesn't mean an intelligent being is behind it.

Now that theists have at least convinced more atheists that order anddesign do exist in the universe, life, etc. this is more of a first-roundvictory for theists on this debate.

Second round begins. Soon, theists will be able to convince atheists thatdesign and order in nature is possible only by a higher, intelligent beingcontrolling it and designing it.

You don't see the Mona Lisa existing without an intelligent beingpainting it. If it was a painting with random, abstract strokes, then it canexist without an intelligent being. But not a Mona Lisa.

If you can believe that a computer exists only because a more intelligentbeing designed it (the human brain is far more complex than a computer),then human beings (intelligent life) can only exist because a higher, moreintelligent being, God, created humans.

HOW CAN SOMETHING EXIST FROM NOTHING?

We observe an orderly universe. We discovered that it is highly complex, with its own set of laws. And the most complex of all - the creation of intelligent life; can all this really just exist out of some random chance or accident?

Note thst we didn't make or create these natural laws. We only discovered them. They are solid evidence of intelligent design.

Can something exist from nothing? There is no observable evidence that it can. It is not possible.

How about the Big Bang Theory (and all existing theories)? The Big Bang Theory states a huge explosion created the universe. The problem with this is that any explosion requires ingredients. Things do not explode by themselves.

If there are ingredients that do exist, then where did the ingredients come from? Where do the ingredients of the ingredients themselves come from? And this logic goes on and on till infinity (ad infinitum), an infinite loop. Saying that something/someone can exist without a source is fallacious. It is not observable in science and it is not logically possible either. Obviously, there has to be a source for something to exist.

We can argue (for argument's sake) that even from a purely logical point of view, it is highly improbable that this level of order, complexity (and yes, beauty) can occur by random chance. So consequently, it is highly more probable that this intelligent design was created on purpose by an intelligent "Designer".

The truth is, a form of simple order is possible from random chance and even this usually occurs rarely. But to achieve a level of complex order (i.e. intelligent life) by random chance or accident is logically impossible. It would be analogous to throwing metal parts into the air and expecting to make a Porsche car by themselves.

If it is logically impossible for a certain high level of complex order to occur by random chance/accident, then the presence of complex order (i.e. intelligent life, etc.) simply indicates the logical impossibility of a God (Intelligent Designer) not existing.

QUOTES FROM FAMOUS SCIENTISTS

Sir Isaac Newton (before Charles Darwin): "Atheism is so senseless! When I look at the solar system, this did not happen by chance."

Louis Pasteur (same time as Darwin): "Ideas such as spontaneous generation (evolution) do not fit the evidence.....Life comes from life."

Sir Ambrose Fleming (pioneer of electronics): "It is disastrous to the ethical development or spiritual life of the young to lead them to believe that men are descended from monkeys."

Warner von Braun (Pioneer of space exploration): "To be forced to believe ONLY ONE conclusion - that everything in the universe happened by chance - would violate the very objectivity of science itself!"

It's all a matter of perception.

Majority of the truly "great scientists" of both past and present (skills abovethe average scientist) like Newton, Pascal, Fleming, etc. have studied natureand science, and science WAS the way for them to acknowledge that aCreator, supreme being exists, God.

I'm referring to popular scientists, not no-names. They became popularbecause they distinguished themselves from peers.

They saw order in the universe, in processes.It's more believable tobelieve in real experts' opinions and observations than ordinaryscientists, lay people (who simply are not at the same level of the greats).

There are those here who will argue that majority of present-day, modernscientists do not believe in God. I ask "where's your evidence?" The onlyway to know this is to ask each scientist all over the world, or make a veryreliable, comprehensive statistical survey among a statistically significantnumer of scientists.

I'd rather believe the great scientists of both PRESENT AND PAST, thanaverage scientists. That simple really.....

WHY THEISTS DEFEAT ATHEISTS

It's about being balanced.

Atheists have a tendency to "over-logicize", they depend too much onlogic, science. Logic, science are only two sources of truth, but they arenot the only sources. Logic and science have limits, and eventually,the atheist is limited in his/her search for truth.

On the other hand, a person can be the exact opposite. He/she may"over-rely" on faith alone without balancing it with his/her faculty ofreason. One can become an overzealous fanatic.

There is a reason why God gave both faith and reason to men and women.It is to be used in conjunction, to balance each other out.

Therefore, the theist has more truths by having not just faith nor logic,but using both. The theist is the more balanced being.

HOUSE OF CARDS:

You cannot have a car without "car makers", meaning metal would notby itself form into a ferrari. It has to have an "intellect" for suchcomplex design.

Some here have tried to argue by stating "lesser analogies" to thehouse of cards, meaning they gave other examples of things takingorder by itself, seemingly without an intelligence behind it. Theseare lesser examples, because they cannot compare in complexity to thestructure of the house of cards.

Like the "ferrari example", a ferrari would be similar to the houseof cards. Other analogies are too simple to compare with the "houseof cards". It would be like comparing a "beautiful artistic piece ofmetal" to a ferrari.

Basically, it's about the delicate balance on how the universeoperates. Ex. the spinning of planets around the sun, the principlesinvolved are so delicate, so orderly that the planets do not move outof its orbit nor hit each other. It is "too orderly" to say theplanets just formed themselves into this pattern.

Analogy is "house of cards" or the "ferrari".

And especially planet Earth. The laws and elements in our planethave heavy scientific evidence of "intelligent design", as if theelements somehow were "balanced" to provide and support a wonderfulevent - the existence of life.

The existence of life here is too "advanced", too "intelligent", foranybody to simply state it can exist without an intelligencecarefully balancing the elements which support life. Like the"ferrari example", the ferrari cannot simply exist without"intelligent people" making it. Metal, by itself does not naturallyform into a ferrari (maybe an artistic piece of metal, but notsomething as advanced as a ferrari).

It is still more logical that a higher intelligent being, God, created energythat produced the universe to SUPPORT life and intelligent life thanatheist logic that somehow, the universe and intelligent life "existed byaccident", that life and intelligent life came from non-living, inanimate,non-intelligent sources. Such logic is contradictory, and more highlyimprobable.

This is why majority of famous scientists believe in God(Pascal, Newton, Pasteur, etc.). Their level of skill is higher thanmost scientists, including "no-name" scientists.

Can you use probability theory on my "ferrari example"? Can you layclaim that "theoretically, metal by itsef will form into a ferrari,complete with engines, first-class mags, pioneer audio (don't forgetthe woofer). Oh the "horse logo" may somehow carve itself.

The "house of cards" cannot be formed by even a million randomthrows. It is plain physically impossible. It's like telling me ahuman being will jump 100 feet into the air after 1 million tries,that it is highy improbable, but possible.

Probability theory cannot be used here. It is a human invention,therefore not perfect and prone to error. Science has to accept thatsome things will have limits, some things are impossible to occur. Atheory is not a law, it is more of speculation, not reality.

This is reality: Unless anyone has performed a "complete house ofcards", with just throwing it into the air (like magic), thisargument cannot be refuted by mere speculation. If you have done it,then you win, simple as that.

Theist Attack: This is one of the weakest arguments of atheism, always torn to shreds in major debates, always.

By the scientific method, we can self-evidently observe only organic beings (at least the level of humans's IQ) can create complex order. Not even animals are capable of the complex order we refer to (car engine, ferrarri cars, etc.)

Note we are considering the universe and its order as complex. Another complex order is the very existence of human life and intellect (also the only being with scientific capability).

Never has it been obsserved that inanimate objects (nature, universe, stones, rocks, etc.) can make complex order as say, something in the level of a car engine.

The snowflake you say? It is not equal to the complex order that a car engine has. I could make a simple kaleidoscope toy with mirrors and it will easily re recreate the geometric patterns we see on a snowflake (via a microscope).

Yup, a simple toy to recreate the geometric patterns. You cannot obviously do this with a car engine. It takes a lot more time, and effort to make a car engine. Snowflake and car engine are very different and are not the same in complexity.

Atheists should stop using the snowflake as an example of order comparable to the order present in a car engine.

Basically, by the scientific method, it is self-evidently observable that there has never been a case of inanimate objects capable of order (what more, complex order of the universe and its laws, intelligent human life, etc.)

There are atheists who will argue that the universe/nature is capable of forming its own orderly processes without an intelligence guiding it.

This is a fallacy since the universe/nature is inanimate, and therefore this belief violates the basic laws of science and logic. Yup, we have observed only organic beings are capable of order, but not inorganic beings. Never.

Since the universe/nature, etc. are inorganic, they do not have intelligence and obviously you need intelligence to create order (again especially of the highest levels of order).

The only logical way to force the belief that the universe/nature, though inorganic in nature is somehow, capable of creating order is by making it (universe/nature) a "special exception". This of course violates the laws of logic (on making special exceptions) .

If the universe/nature though inorganic, can create order without an intelligence guiding it, then anytihng goes. I should be able to observe, by scientific method, other inorganic objects creating order. This, is a clear "special exception" fallacy.

Sadly, I do not see rocks forming into tall buidlings, a lake creating a swimming pool by itself, etc. This is logically impossible. It takes intelligence (organic beings) to use inorganic things to form any semblance of order (car engine, etc.)

Thus, the order we see and observe is impossible without an intelligence guiding it. The intelligent design we see proves the logical impossibility of God (an intelligent Being) not existing.

Take note that science can only work from an environment of order, not disorder. There is no disorder in the universe (or science cannot even exist).

ON ORDER EXISTING W/O INTELLIGENCE DEBATE 2

I've been in major debates against atheists and time and time again, the fundamental flaws of atheism lead to their consistent defeat. This is expected because atheism's flaws are basic, fundamental in nature and cannot stand against good theist attacks.

One (among many) of their popular tenets is "Order can exist without an intelligence guiding it".

Atheists will resort to giving examples of order in nature (by their subjective definition of order). They would proceed to naming these. Some popular ones include snowflakes (viewed under a microscope), soup (yes, the contents in it as well), super novas, the structure of gems (diamonds, etc.), molecular structures, rainbow, etc.

The theists and atheists will debate back and forth - one in approval, the other one against it.

A scientist though, can be objective and use the scientific method to see the truth.

First, it is clear that the very notion of order can be subjective in nature. The structure of snowflakes, rainbow, supernova, and all mentioned examples are prone to subjective observation. Hence, the counter-attack by the theist debaters. Their strategy is built on this fact.

By the scientific method, a scientist will divide subjects into specific, separate groups for objective observation. Each group will be put into separate rooms and be provided a piano, and a full deck of cards.

Group A consists of rocks - this would represent inorganic objects.

Group B consists of insects, bees for example - this represents the animal kingdom

Group C consists of humans - this represents the human specie, the group w/ the highest intellect.

They will be observed for a period of time. The results:

Group C was able to achieve a high level of order. The piano was played (recognized as a musical instrument) and a house of cards was built. Intelligence that provided order was displayed of the highest among the three.

Group B displayed some order, though not in the level of Group C. A beehive was made, a structure with geometric design inside. Acceptable as order.

Group A, composed of inorganic objects displayed zero order, no activity or even any movement made.

By the scientific method, we can conclude that inorganic objects are incapable of producing order of any kind without an intellgence/intelligent being guiding them.

The notion that inorganic objects, snowflakes, gems, rainbows, etc. by atheists are somehow capable of producing order by themselves is fundamentally flawed.

Only intelligent beings, controlling inorganic objects can make these objects arrange into order as the scientific method proves.

If an inorganic object (rocks in our example) cannot do any movement or order by itself, then all inorganic objects will have to share that characteristic.

Arguing that snowflakes, supernova, etc. are capable of order is a viiolation of the "special exception rule", and definitely goes against the laws of the scientific method.

Peace.......

MORE ON ATHEIST FALLACY ON ORDER

1) There are only 2 classifications: inorganic and inorganic objects.

We can observe inorganic objects not capable of order. Only an intelligent, organic being must control the inorganic object/s to form any semblance of order.

Ex. Metal parts scattered in random. These are observed by the scientific method as incapable of creating a car engine by themselves. Only a human being (organic object w/ intellect enough) can move these to create the engine (complex order/object).

Science has concluded:

1) Organic objects are capable of order/complexity

2) Inorganic objects are incapable of order by themselves.

This is basic scientific laws/observation. It is irrefutable unless you can show inorganic metal parts moving by themselves to create an engine.

Now, the atheist newb spouts (out of ignorance): "Order is possible without intelligence. Order can be made by inorganic objects."

So the atheist is making a radical claim that: some inorganic objects are capable of order.Then how come metal parts don't move by themselves to form an engine?

The atheist needs to make a third division (See first two scentific observations above):

3) Some inorganic objects are capable of order.

This, of course directly contradicts the second scientifically observed event:

2) Inorganic objects are incapable of order by themselves.

If some inorganic objects are capable of order as atheists claim, then why are other inorganic objects incapable of it? Then how come metal parts don't move by themselves to form an engine?

There is no logical consistency with the atheist claim. It's either "inorganic objects do not make order by themselves" or "Inorganic objects are capable of order". This is the scientific method.

But the atheists who claim this are actually saying "There's a third division. Some inorganic objects are capable of order, some are not."

Really? That is a clear "special exception" violation. Case closed as always.

ON EVOLUTION AND CREATION

Note: In order for something to be a fact (established truth),it must be empirically observed while occurring at present, andmust be reproducible by experiment.

1) Both evolution and creation cannot be reproduced by experiment.

2) Both evolution and creation cannot be empirically observed whileoccurring at present.

Therefore, evolution is an unproven theory and never fact.

THE SCIENTIFIC DILEMMA

The statement "The results of the scientific method should be followed" is unscientificbecause it is a value statement that does not get its authority from anywhere but itself.

"We should use the scientific method." Why should we? "It proves itself." How does itprove itself? "It uses the scientific method."

Atheist Statement: "The scientific method is true because it works and because it isaxiomatic (self-evident)."

Christian answer: Sounds a lot like faith to me. Who decides what is axiomatic?Does the scientific method decide it? That makes it circular if it does. If not, then it isnot scientific itself.

I would have to do all the experiments to come to that conclusion. Other than that,I take it on faith that all of the scientists who did the experiments and reviewed themand tested them are not lying to me. That is my point.

You cannot use the "scientific method" as a reason to make science as an authority oftruth, simply because the only way to prove science as the truth is to use the"scientific method"! The logic is circular.

ON MICROBIOLOGY AND EVOLUTION

Actually, from a microbiologist's perspective, all of those are far easier to explainthrough intelligent design than evolution.

In fact, the immune system relies on a chain reaction of enzymes as well as thecoordinated activity of T-cells. The number of genes required to manufactureall of the proteins necessary for it to work at all numbers in the thousands. Toclaim that random single gene mutations created this process is beyond reason.It is absolutely impossible.

None of the enzymes involved in combatting foreign proteins are used for any otherpurpose in the body. Nor are they molecularly similar enough to have been modifiedand retained by the random mutation of single genes. If you change one gene out ofthose necessary for the maintenance of your immune system, you would not get asystem that works differently, you would get one that doesn't work at all.

According to the currently prevailing theory of evolution, the immune systemwould have taken millions of years to develop, even in simple organisms, and itwould not have worked at all until it was complete. The theory of evolution indicatesthat organisms would have shed these worthless protiens rather than conitnue to useenergy and nutrients to continue manufacturing them.

Microbiology has opened an entirely new world of biology to us. It is one that is farmore complex than anyone had previously imagined, and it will eventually be thewooden stake that kills evolution.

IS SCIENCE THE SOLE AUTHORITY?

1) Ok. Atheists believe in science. Science and the scientificmethod's authenticity is under the power of the so-called "scientificcommunity", a community of scientists and researchers.

Atheists state they believe the logic and discoveries made byscientists in the scientific community. This means you believe agroup of people, who are experts in science.

Question: What, again gives these scientists and community theauthority to be believed in? Why should we believe what they say,anymore than we would believe in other "logic" communities, likephilosophers (who also use logic)? By what authority should they bebelieved in?

Logic is not the exclusive domain of science. Various disciplinesuse logic and reasoning, like theology, philosophty, etc. A group oftheologians in the Vatican, are authorities that Catholics believein. They teach the Catholic faith and truths (using logic).

What would be the difference in believing in theologians, anymorethan believing in scientists? None. They are both belief systems,though contrary to each other at times. Science is philosophical andbased also on faith (again since you cannot use the scientific methodto validate science, circular).

2) Great scientists like Louis Pasteur, Pascal, etc. and creationistscientists alike are experts in science, and have concluded that theuniverse and its laws are of "intelligent design", and that from apurely logical point of view, the possibility of an intelligentbeing, God, creating the universe is higher than the universeexisting from non-intelligent source/sources.

Other scientists, called evolutionists, believe otherwise. They tooare experts in science but concluded that they see no proof ofintelligent design, or of God existing.

Again, by which authority do we believe these two major divisions,in the obviously divided "scientific community" itself? Either youbelieve one or the other, you cannot believe both. So, again, thisproves science is not purely objective (as atheists falselyconclude), but still based in part by faith, subjective reasoning oropinion. This debate is proof of the scientific community's lack ofunity in certain major areas.

PART2:

Exactly the point. In order for science to be "purely objective",the scientists who examined and evaluated evidence for evolutionshould agree 100%.

In the surveys you have provided, a percentagestill did not agree (or were creationist believers). I thereforeconclude this makes science "partially subjective". The data may bepurely objective, but take note that scientists examining these dataare human. and have "differences of opinion" (creationists vsevolutionists for example).

It is irrefutable fact. The people need a"scientific community", experts, to analyze the data for them. Thisis because if they don't exist, anybody's personal opinion will be asgood as anybody else's. Science needs these experts.

Unfortunately, they do differ in opinions. Opinions on, say origin ofthe universe will need to be 100% agreed upon to make sciencepurely objective.

Majority vote, again, by scientists can never be a basis of truth.Again, by what authority do your evolutionist scientists deem themselvesto be the judge of truth, since majority, in scientific method, does notwin?

COIN IN A BOX

1) "Science is the only method of truth. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence."

This popular atheist argument is defeated by the "coin in a box" argument by theists. It's not only defeated but totally destroyed.

If I hid a coin in a box in a deep cave, then proceeded to ask the top scientists in the world if they believe a coin or not exists in that box (without mentioning anything else), and they say "there's a lack of evidence, so by the scientific method it does not exist." Then, that's a fallacy.

Whatever the scientific community says is irrelevant to the reality that when I go into that deep cave I see the existence of my coin, because I myself hid it there exactly.

By atheist logic, that coin must not exist. Tsk, tsk.

It's no wonder that atheism is not even considered a hard opponent by experienced theist debaters. It is an average opponent, as I emphasized earlier, atheism's fundamentals are considered weak.

More experienced atheist debaters (especially those who eventually converted to theism after knowing this truth amidst other truths), if honest enough (hard to find honest atheists in debate who will admit defeat staring them), eventually discover this truth.

The point of it is to show that science and the scientific method is toolimited to just rely on purely the use of scientific method to prove the existence of someone/something.

For science to claim it is the only way is radical and fallacious. Clearly, it is but one way, but not the ony way.The existence of my coin, even without evidence to anybody, confirms this.

For the atheists, a tip: You should say "The scientific method is a good way to prove existence of someone/something,but not the only way." This would give you more credibility in the eyes of good theist debaters.

The scientific method is similar to the legal law's rule of providing physical evidence to support a claim.It works on many situations, yes, but it fails on other occasions. It doesn't mean this method will work oneach and every situation. This is an atheist fallacy.

We observe its failure in legal law. In cases where not enough physical evidence was presented, there are cases where the truth wasnot observed. An innocent man was charged guilty, spent years in jail, etc.

Then, the real killer confesses to the crime. See? The limitations of our logic, of the scientific methodand legal method result in this - Limitation of truth/reality.

ATHEISTS WHO NOW BELIEVE IN GOD

I had friends, who had a hard time believing in the existence of God.They can be classified as "strong atheists". Any belief in thesupernatural was laughed at. They only believed in science and logic.

To believe in supernatural phenomena and events would eventuallypave the clear way for belief in a supernatural being - God.So it is essential to refute the occurence of the supernatural or paranormal.

I have seen how most of these friends eventually believed in the existenceof God, not in the traditional ways (Bible preaching, using hell as a threat,intelligent design theory, etc.) but of all ways, the "supernatural" way...

1) One friend got converted by, of all places, a hauntedhouse (newly moved in). He saw events which simply cannot be explainedby science. At night, he saw a white robed lady going inside a restroom.He knocked on the door, but no one answered. When he went in,no one was there.

His wife also experienced the same phenomenon.Scared the wits out of her.

One night, they saw together an apparition (through a semi-closed door).It was a woman in white holding a candle. The woman disappeared slowly,and they saw the candle still floating in the air apparenty going in theirdirection!

My friend has analyzed that if "supernatural events" are real(since he witnessed them first-hand), he wil have to accept the factthat a supernatural being can exist or does exist. He is now a believer inGod.

It is this friend who doubted the reality of miracles before. Now, he isstudying closely the miraculous events at Fatima, the Holy Bible, etc.Most of my other friends are doing the same, convinced of he and hiswife's testimony.

I've learned this truth: God has His ways to acheive His goals. Why doesHe allow supernatural events to occur?Because He knows these things can show proud atheists/agnostics thatthe supernatural is reality and that He, God is real. He humbles intelligentpeople that not everything is explainable by logic and science(like supernatural events in the Bible).

By accepting that the supernatural does occur, even the strong atheistswould have to eventually accept the existence of a supernaturalbeing - God the creator of both natural and supernatural.

Yup, in this way, even the supernatural fufills an important purpose.....

ON THE GREAT MINDS:

A great mind or genius is great despite any age. It is classical andis unaffected by time or technology. What we call "modern technology"today will look primitive 300 years from now. So, where do you drawthe line? What does "modern" really mean now?

ON THE MIND AND SOUL:

Sorry to say, but any man who doesn't believe in an afterlife isfoolish.Clearly there is an afterlife, and the only proof you need isyour very thought! Analyze it, the "mind (soul)" has no physicaldimensions, and no location, and therefore is not a material thing.

The mind breaks every law of science, and doesn't require an energysource to sustain itself. So clearly it must "live" on even thoughthe body perishes. (even Einstein believed this) And proof of God (asupreme, or perfect being) can be attained by reading some of themeditations of Rene Descartes through natural reason.

And by natural reason, I mean it is self-evident. ie: we say twolinesare parallel and will go on infinitely without ever intersecting, butwe cannot actually prove this with physical evidence. It is self-evidentthat the lines will not intersect. Now then we can examine the validargument:

: 1. An idea of the existence of God exists.: 2. Cause for the idea must have at least as: much formal reality as the idea has: objective(realness) reality.: ____________________________________________: ^ A perfect being exists.

: And more proof would be that it is impossible to create somethingmore perfect than yourself. ie, creating something beyond yourcomprehension would be impossible. So from that idea we can concludethat all things are created from someting more perfect than itself,and at the very beginning of that chain, we can will find, thatPerfect, Infinite, Supremely good being.

On the origin of God:

God has always existed since the beginning, that's why He isomnipotent. The fact that He is God means no one created Him. Ifsomeone did create Him, then He would not be God (the one who createdHim would be God).

The Bible is the Book of Truth. It was not created for propagandapurposes, nor does it contain "fantasy stories" or myths. It is basedon plain truth, each and every word of it. It would be too lengthy toexplain everything here but the miracles in the Bible have onlyrecently been verified as true.

For reference, please watch "The Discovery Channel's" seriesentitled "Secrets of the Bible" on cable channel. The scientiststhemselves (both atheist and Christian scientists combined),through the accuracy and wonders of modern technology andcomputers were able to do objective analysis and study of theauthenticity of the Bible's events.

It is noteworthy to mention here that the verification of"miracles in the Bible" as historical and accurate were confirmedby a large party of both "atheist" scientists and Christianscientists.

This is to make it as unbiased and objective as possible. Only factsand proofs spoke for themselves.

There was good evidenceof the Bible's truth (parting of the Red Sea, David slaying Goliath,Samson, Gideon's destruction of Israel's enemy through prayer alone,etc.) You won't regret it.

On historical Bible:

There was a feature on cable (I believe it was Discovery channelagain), which strengthened the occurences of "Noah's Ark". Basically,scientists were puzzled to find "fossilized remains" of plants,animals, etc. on high places where it was physically impossible tohave a presence there. Say, "sea fish fossils" atop mountains, etc. Agreat flood is likely to be the cause. It's too long to discuss herethough.

Also, accounts of a great flood during the beginning of time havebeen discovered in many ancient texts from different cultures.

Why sufferings and imprefections occur despite a perfect God:

Sufferings, wars, diseases, deformities are not the will of God butHe allows these to occur for specific purposes. Nothing happenswithout His permission. Say, a landslide occurs and instantly kills alot of people. He allows this as a warning to people's greed, say thecareless cutting of trees for commercialization, etc.

God will not do your work for you. He does not spoil His children.Instead of blaming God for the world's misery, we should blameourselves more. Mahatma Gandhi once said "The world has enough forman's need, but never enough for his greed."

WHY COMMUNISM AND ATHEISM SHARE SAME BELIEF IN NO GOD:

It is no coincidence that communism and atheism share the samebelief/philosophy that there is no god.

Engels, one of the founders of communism, states that religion is anobsolete system, that religion is not needed anymore when communismarrived. He attacked religion as a "myth" of sorts, lacking objectivetruth.

Nothing could be farther from the truth (Again, both atheistscientists and christian scientists have verified the miracles ofthe Bible as true. Watch "Discovery Channel's "Secrets of the Bible.Objective proof is all there. Period.) No atheist here has been ableto refute these proofs (for starters, watch it first).

Well, look at communism's steady demise over the years, now it is afailure. Same with atheism, it will have its time, but eventuallythe philosophy will disappear. History has a tendency to repeatitself.

Q: If God created man, then who created God?

A: If there was a being greater than God, you would still ask"Who created the creator of God?" You could ask this again andagain for no end. The flaw is you are basically falling into the errorof "infinite regression".

You are saying that there is no beginning, which of course is illogical.

From a purely logical point of view, the existence of an intelligent Goddesigning the universe and intelligent life is MUCH MUCH higher and moreprobable than "infinite regression".

There is a beginning and everything has to have a beginning and an end.

Q: Why does God allow evil to occur? Did God create evil?

A: One thing I've observed that's so true, most atheists became onebecause of ignorance. Yup, no offense meant, pls. don't take itpersonally, it's just the truth. Ignorance especially on Christiantheology.

God allows evil to occur, but it is not His will for it to occur. Hedid not create evil in this world. Evil is a result of people withfree will abusing their free will.

God gave men and women the gift of free will, the ability toreason, to choose. This is because of His love for us and that Hemade us as His children, not robots who have no choice. You are freeto do good or evil. Reward for good, punishment for evil. This meansthere will be humans who will inevitably choose to do evil.

You see, free will is so important. Free will is what makes a humanbeing different from an animal. That's why we have cages for wildanimals because they do not reason. Free will is also the reason whywe have criminals inside prisons, people who must be punished forabusing their free will.

When you have a child, you give the child a certain freedom. Ex. Youhave to give that child freedom to play in the playground, eventhough you know there is a risk of your child hurting herself, saygetting bruises, etc. Sure, you could guard every inch of her ground,but that will spoil her. That wouldn't be freedom.

If you guard her every move, you are restricting her freedom. Shewill not learn the lessons she needs to by herself. Same with God onus His children. He has to give us freedom, respecting our free will.In this He has to allow certain risks of people doing evil (abusingfree will). This is similar to a parent allowing a child freedom toplay even with the risk of her falling and hurting herself.

You cannot have it both ways. Freedom has a price.

He does not will or want evil to occur (because God is a being ofinfinite and pure goodness, being the source of all types of love),but necessarily must permit it to happen in order for free will to beenforced. If God did not allow evil to occur, then free will cannever exist in the first place. If free will cannot exist in men andwomen, then they cannot be considered human beings, capable of doinggood or evil. They would be robots or animals with only instinct andnot capable of choice or human reasoning.

It is a fundamental truth of Christian theology that God did notcreate evil. Evil cannot come from God, because God is a perfectbeing of perfect love and infinite goodness. A perfect being cannothave imperfections or make a mistake. Got it?

A universal law is this: Evil cannot come out of something good (andvice versa).

Q: God created man. Man did evil acts. Therefore, can God be evil?

If I create a robot, and the robot killed a person (against mywishes), I cannot be considered evil.

God created people WITH free will. Many people choose to do good.Some will choose to do evil (selfish interests). Abuse of free willto do evil is called "sin".

God created us to be happy, meaning true happiness is only derivednaturally from doing good. Conversely, sadness and lack of peacenaturally occurs when a person sins. This is an innate "natural law"that God made. Even atheists will admit they feel good when they dogood things and feel sad when they commit evil. It is an innateinstinct in souls.

God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He created"knowledge" of evil (so a person who ate this will not be innocentanymore of what is good and what is evil). He did not therefore,create "evil" itself.

Q: "If God did not create evil, how did evil exist?"

1) Atheists can say all they want, that atheism is not a beliefsystem. It's subjective. Truth is, it is a belief system because yousimply believe that God does not exist. Don't fool yourself thatyou're so different from other belief systems, that you rely onlogic and science (Christianity relies on logic and science too,obviously).

2) Ok. It is written in the Bible that evil first originated from ahighly-ranked angel, Lucifer, (means "Bearer of Light). He rebelledagainst God (abusing his free will and causing the first sin). Hispride/vanity made him love himself above God, and made him want TOBE GOD.

He tempted 25-30% of the angels in heaven to rebel against God, andwere defeated by God's champion, St. Michael the Archangel (he wasof much lesser rank, but had God's power in the end).

An angel (free will is a gift to both angels and man) who sinned.Take note that NOBODY tempted Lucifer to rebel. But he tempted otherangels (who now are free to tempt men and women, protected by theirown God-given guardian Angels who advise them against temptation).

3) Again, evil and suffering is allowed by God to occur, because ofthe concept of free will, and also as punishment for sins. Say, warsoccur because it is a chastisement of man's greed for power, etc.

ON THE PROOF THAT AN ETERNAL SOUL EXISTS:

I just watched a show about "near-death experiences" or "life afterdeath.

There was this atheist (he called himself a free thinker/atheist)who got a stroke one day. He was unconscious on the operating table.Suddenly, he saw his body being revived desperately by the doctor andnurses. His family was crying.

He murmured "This is impossible, how can I be conscious, and see mybody and everybody else? Could it be that a soul/spirit reallyexists after death?"

ATTENTION Atheists: Many who've experienced "life after death"experiences have recounted the same thing. They saw their body,(being pronounced dead even). They also were able to describeaccurately, in complete detail, the events they saw. They describedthe people present, the loved ones (even the style and color ofclothes/apparel).

Remember that at that exact time, their eyes were totally closed,their brains either dead or almost, all of these being verified bymedical instruments. There is logically no way they could've seentheir body and everyone, everything happening (from the outside atthat). This only proves that a second body (soul/spirit) does existand this is absolute truth.

The existence of a soul/spirit is not believed by atheists. They donot believe it because the presence of a soul, if verified, willnaturally lead to the truth that God exists. The soul, being eternal,and is constantly mentioned in the Holy Bible as true.

A person is eventually judged not on whether he/she was a Christian,but on the goodness of his/her life. A Christian who lived an evillife will not enter Heaven, but a non-Christian who lived a good lifewill enter Heaven.

So it is wrong to say that only Christians will go to Heaven. Somesects believe in that by taking the Bible too literally. That is aflaw.

2) No problem with the facts. All the people who recounted how theysaw their bodies (and every exact detail they gave), even though theywere declared dead (yes, with eyes closed for the nth time!) gavetheir testimonies IMMEDIATELY after they woke up. They said this infront of doctors, nurses, loved ones (so it's authentic, no way forthem to have gotten it from any other person). This is well-documented, and has baffled researchers/scientists to this day. It isstill being studied.

Anyway, we're going out of topic. I'd like to continue the story ofthe atheist (real-life):

So, he reported seeing his body from the outside, as an observer.Lots of people trying to revive him, no heart beat on the medinstruments, etc. He wonders how he can be seeing his body, 'causehe is atheist after all and expected to "just disappear" like a used-up energy matter (etc.). To him, this was simply impossible.

Yet, if it was a dream, why could he see his body, his relatives,etc. He remembered being unconscious from his room (as well as thepain he felt at that time, before he became unconscious). And nowhe's seeing his own body being declared dead.

Then, from behind him, some black, hooded figures appeared at thedoor (outside the room). They told him to come to that spot. Hethought they were hospital staff, and went to them.

Almost immediately, he was dragged down a dark tunnel. It seemedforever, then he landed beneath a dark room. He couldn't seeanything, but there were many beings n that room, and they werekicking him, dragging him. He somehow could feel the pain, and theywere laughing, hitting him harder when they saw his pain. They weresadistic. He couldn't fight them, so he remained in a fetal position(his exact statement) to shield the blows. He was crying for help.

Suddenly, a voice told him "Pray to God". He ignored it at first.Then a second call, "Pray to God." He was asking himself who thisbeing was. He, in desperation, tried to remember a prayer, anyprayer. He tried to recall "Our Lord's Prayer", but couldn't.

Then, a third plea, "Pray to God". He shouted "Jesus, pls. help me!The dark beings cursed, and went away from him as a bright lightshielded him. This time, he saw a bright tunnel, and saw Jesus andsome angels. He was told this was not yet his time, that he he had amission to tell this, especially to skeptics. He reported not wantingto go back, but wanting to stay, so serene and peaceful it was there.The feeling of being loved was overwhelming. Then, he woke up, toeverybody's amazement.

All of the witnesses who passed through the bright light recountedthat they didn't want to go back to this world anymore. It was saidto be indescribable. A feeling of extreme peace and overwhelminglove, a perfect world.

The great scientist, Pascal, came to this conclusion:

If you decide to believe in God, then when your life passes away,andGod does exist, you still win.

If you decide not to believe in God, then your life passes away, andGod does exist, you lose everything.

TRUTH: It's more logical to believe in God than not to based onabove. If you were a gambler, it's a safer bet to believe in God.

On the Santa theory: To say to believe in God is like believing inSanta Claus is not an accurate analogy, very flawed. Why? It is notthe same, because there are greater risks in not believing in Godthan not believing in Santa.

Basically, if you choose to not believe in God, the risks of gaininga bad after-life are greater than choosing not to believe (ouroriginal point above). There is no such risk whatsoever withbelieving in Santa or not. Whether you believe in Santa or not, youwill not have any possibility of a bad after-life.

Remember again that Pascal's Wager is all about taking risks, onwhich option is riskier or better (see original post above again).This refutes the analogy of Santa theory (an obvious favorite ofatheists) completely.

For your further information, Pascal is an agnostic, that's why heneeded logic to convince himself of the truth.

On the spirit/soul's existence:

There are actually three levels in existence: spiritual, mental andphysical state.

These are working within each other and are not separate. Sciencecannot prove with "physical methods" the existence of a spirit/soul.

At the same time, it cannot be disproved by science either. As ofthis time, science is "limited" by its very nature, in that it canonly work within the boundaries of the physical and mental state.

On why God's plan is a work of genius:

If you were God, and you saw that your creation, mankind, did notacknowledge you or love you back despite all your love for them, whatwould you do? What type of plan will you really make to show yourlove and teach them truth?

God's genius and perfection is shown by His plan: His begotten Son(begotten, not made), God the Son, Jesus Christ would become manhimself, one of us. He would be born to a virgin, Mother Mary, toshow that nothing is impossible to God's power.

He would teach the truth and establish a new way of life not justfor one race but for all races of men - Christianity.

Then, in order to pay the "countless debts of sin" that men andwomen have been making, His only Son would have to make the ultimatesacrifice: a suffering so great and death on a cross like a commoncriminal.

Jesus paid our debts in full with His blood. Even if each of ussuffered and died on a cross like him, our debts will still not bepaid. Our sins have been so great that only God Himself dying on thatcross will suffice. He did it out of pure love for us though He hadno obligation to. There is no love that can equal this.

Is there any person who can show a better plan than God's perfectplan? The answer is no. No angel or human being can ever match God'sgenius and wisdom. If you think you can, you're kidding yourself.

On Hell and Heaven:

There is a common misconception here. Hell is a place where thesouls there have decided to separate themselves from God, theirCreator. They despise and hate God, even unto death, though God stillloves them.

The fact that God can annihilate them but God choosing to sparethem, is proof of God's eternal goodness. He gives them a place toexist. God does not force souls to love Him, for loving is always achoice, free will. If not, it cannot be called love. God respects usand gave us free will. We are not robots.

It is like a gangster you bring to a peaceful home or church.Eventually, the gangster will seek to go out and seek the evil life,danger, raping women, killing enemies, etc. Why? Because this hasbecome his nature, this is where he is content. Like a pig, eventhough you dress it all up is still a pig. It sees mud and it rollsall over the mud.

Similarly, if you bring an evil soul to Heaven, it's nature willinevitably make that soul seek something else, it will choose Hell.

In the end, we will decide our eternity. We are all gifted with aneternal soul, but where we spend that eternity is ultimately apersonal choice, a decision. There is no excuse, only choice.

Some have suggested it is more merciful for God to stop the evilsouls' suffering by erasing them from existence rather than lettingthem burn in fire for eternity.

Logical, but flawed. There is a theological principle that God doesnot destroy what He has already created. Consider Hell as "damagecontrol".

Look at our modern-day prison system. There are prisoners there forlife, having to do hard labor every day. What are we to do wih them?Would it be right and "merciful" to end all their lives and shootthem one by one so their suffering ends? You be the judge.

Hell must be harsh, for it is an example of what rebellion againstGod will lead to. It has to serve as a deterrent. The souls there arefree to blasphemize God all they want, cursing and gnashing theirteeth in anger. Even there, God allows free will and does not forcesouls.

ON HIGHER TRUTHS:

One thing that turns me off is when some Christian sects(protestants) declare only Christians will go to Heaven.

1) How can this be, when at least 75% of people around the globe arenon-Christians? When I was desperately seeking for truth, thistroubled me a lot. Secondly, theology states no soul can enter heavenwith even a single stain of sin. One must be "pure".

In all my searching, only the theology of the Christian CatholicChurch has satisfied me. Listen well, for this is the answer:

The concept of either only Heaven or Hell is a concept made byProtestants.

If you review your history, they were founded by a monk (Luther),who was trained in the original church founded by Christ, theChristian Catholic Church.

The Protestants have more than 1,000 different sects now. Obviously,when one Church member found something "wrong", he branched out,proclaimed his own theology and created a new sect. This is theirweakness, no unity. The Catholic Church has always been one, hasmaintained its teachings, and traces its roots back to St. Peter, theleader of Jesus Christ's apostles.

The Catholic Church teaches a middle ground, between Hell andHeaven: Purgatory. This means your religion is not a basis on whetheryou will go to heaven, purgatory or hell. This means both Christiansand non-Christians are judged after death, by the good things thatone has done, how he/she had loved and avoided sin.

Purgatory is mentioned in the Bible: The New Jerusalem Bible, 1Corinthians 3:10-15 and 2 Maccabees 12: 38-45

Purgatory is a place where souls are purged, suffering temporarily(unlike hell which is eternal). The souls are cleansed of any sin,for it is necessary (only souls without sin can enter heaven).

The more truths one knows, the higher the punishment if that personsins (compared to those who know less). The punishment for aChristian will be harder than pagans. Because a Christian is blessedwith more truths and graces, it is naturally justified that thestandards of being good and avoiding sin is higher.

A pagan who does not know much about God, or about His Divine Son,Jesus Christ, is given more leniency. In God's wisdom, each pagan hasan innate knowledge of basic good and evil. This is called "naturallaw".

This is what makes them know instinctively, that killing a person incold blood without reason is inherently wrong even without being aChristian or having knowledge of Christian teachings on sin.

Not all souls will pass even purgatory. Say a person kills a millionJews, etc. Only God can really judge perfectly.

There are probably millions of souls in hell. Assume that if evenless than 1% of people who lived thousands of years ago, combinedwith those who have died within modern times sinned so horribly as tonot even pass purgatory, then that's less than 1% of billions ofpreviously living people. That would still amount to millions (thereare more than 7 billion people alive in the world as of now).

Yes, one can assume then, that the majority of people in the worldwill enter purgatory, Christian or otherwise. This means majoritywill indeed enter heaven eventually. But note that the pains ofpurgatory are more painful than earthly sufferings (depending on thelevel of sins, for purgatory has different levels also).

It is a common misconception on hell. The Protestants claim onlyChristans will go to heaven. This is a major flaw.

Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that non-believers will go tohell. The Catholic theology des more justice when it claims that bothChristians and non-Christians (that would include atheists, agnostics)can go to heaven.

It's a lot more logical and just. The majority of people aroundthe world are not Christians, and God will not condemn the majorityof people He created.

For most people (Christians and non-Christians), most of us will haveto be purged at purgatory first. Which means most people, majority,will enter heaven eventually, after purgatory.

Ex. Between a Christian murderer (believes in God) and a strong atheist(out of ignorance, etc. but is a good citizen, has a good heart, helpsothers, etc.), who do you think is more worthy to enter heaven?

Faith is not enough. Good works, the over-all goodness of a personcan justify heaven.

THEOLOGY OF PURGATORY:

1) Prayers for the dead are proof of purgatory because there would beno need for prayers if indeed those souls are either only in heaven or hell(as protestants/fundamentalists claim). The verse 2 Maccabees 12: 38-45is to be interpreted therefore, that the souls do need prayer. It meansthey are in a place that is neither heaven nor hell - purgatory.

2) To enter heaven, a soul must be perfect, no sins are allowed there.Since no man/woman is without sin (specified in the Bible), how will anysoul enter in this case? Answer - purgatory.

3) Purgatory enables even non-Christians to enter heaven. The Protestantclaim that only Christians can enter heaven has done a lot to turn awaymany people who otherwise would've been Christians.

4)Buey, here's a major reason that many Protestants are converting tothe Catholic faith:

The Protestants have more than 1,000 sects now (Mormon, Baptist),each with significantly different teachings. Why? A member finds(by his interpretation) that his/her current sects teaching has a flaw.He/she decides to start another sect and detach from the current sect.

The new sect is started, then some member does the same thing(multiply by many times, and you get the point).

This was prophecied by Jesus Himself, the Protestant movement. MostProtestant theology is originally from the Catholic Church. Luther modifiedwhat "he thought" were errors and presto, you've got new Protestanttheology.

The Catholic Church has always been one. The Popes can traceancestry back to the first Pope, St. Peter himself. It is one inteaching and substance.

Why I know my Christian Catholic faith is the true one:

We do not fear science, for science only actually supports thetruths of the Christian religion, mainly the facts in the Holy Bible.

I've given some proofs that give the Christian religion the'advantage" over other religions.

I do not speculate, as I've said before. It has taken me years ofresearch, scouting the world religions, while being scientific andobjective as possible (yes, I know what you're thinking, it can bedone).

1) that only Jesus Christ (on whom Christianity was born) rose fromthe dead, recorded in the Bible as being seen and talked to by manypeople. No other religion's founder has risen from death.

He did appear to many people (beyond Mother Mary and the 12apostles), this is documented in the Bible. Many of these convertedto Christianity. If Christ did not rise from the dead, Christianitywill never be born.

2) This is the same Bible, whose historical data has been provenaccurate and this has never been refuted. Archaeology backs it up.Compare the Bible with other religion's books and you will see theydo not simply have the historical credibility, accuracy the Bibleuniquely has.

Now, this adds credibilty to the Holy Bible. The miracles werestated to have occurred, and the Bible's historical accuracy so farmakes it so that its statements must be believed rather than doubted.

It is mpossible then, not to love God as God is the creator of love,and the ability to love and be loved comes only from Him. Do you loveyour children? Then, where do you think that "ability" comes from?

Peace to all.....

GOD Bless,Alex C

"Faith is higher than reason. Reason is useless....unless you believe."- St. Francis of Assisi

"Before one can comprehend the mystical, one must first understandthe physical."- St. Thomas Aquinas

"The way to wisdom is truth."

------SCIENTISTS & SCHOLARS HAVE VERIFIED JESUS CHRIST AS A HISTORICALFIGURE

Source: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t007.html

Since it is from the New Testament that we gain our primaryknowledge of Jesus, it is fitting to ask whether this literature issound and historically accurate. Critics often describe the Gospelsas pious legend, having no historical competence, and designed onlyfor propaganda purposes. But while it is acknowledged that theGospels are not biography in the strict sense according to 20thcentury definitions,[1] the following facts give immense weight tothe historical accuracy of the New Testament.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------OBJECTIVE SCHOLARSHIP UPHOLDS THE NEW TESTAMENTArchaeologists studying ancient civilizations by uncovering ruinsand examining artifacts, are with increasing success confirming theaccuracy of the Biblical texts. Sir William Ramsey's vindication ofLuke's writings is a classic example.[2] The findings of archaeologyhave in fact reversed the opinions of a number of former skeptics.Among these is the scholar Dr. William F. Albright, who writes:

"The excessive skepticism shown toward the Bible [by certain schoolsof thought] has been progressively discredited. Discovery afterdiscovery has established the accuracy of numerous details."[3]

Recent archaeological discoveries include both the Pool of Bethesda(John 5:1f) and "The Pavement" (John 19:13). Their existence wasdoubted just a few decades ago. Confirmation of the accuracy of thesetting of Jacob's well has also been found (John 4).[4] Suchfindings have caused many scholars to reverse earlier skepticalopinions on the historicity of the Fourth Gospel. Its author hasdemonstrated an obvious intimate knowledge of the Jerusalem ofJesus' time, just as we would expect from the Apostle John. Suchdetail would not have been accessible to a writer of a latergeneration, since Jerusalem was demolished under Titus' Roman army in70 A.D.Also, the recent recovery of a Roman census similar to the one inLuke 2:1f, and the historical confirmation of his "synchronism"[5]in Luke 3:1f, underscores the care Luke took in writing his Gospel(Luke 1:1-4).

[Read more about archaeological discoveries that confirm the Bible'saccuracy.]

Critics of Luke's Gospel often retreat into non-verifiable andsubjective opinions, but they have not overthrown Luke's historicalconfirmations.[6] By extension, the other two "Synoptic"[7] Gospelsof Matthew and Mark, painting essentially similar portraits ofJesus' ministry, are also trustworthy accounts of his life.

Additionally, outside the Bible, Jesus is also mentioned by his near-contemporaries. Extra-Biblical and secular writers (many hostile)point to Jesus' existence, including the Roman writings of Tacitus,Seutonius, Thallus and Pliny, and the Jewish writings of Josephusand the Talmud. Gary Habermas has cited a total of 39 ancient extra-Biblical sources, including 17 non-Christian, that witness fromoutside the New Testament to over 100 details of Jesus' life, death,and resurrection.[8]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------THE GOSPELS BEAR INTERNAL MARKS OF HISTORICAL INTEGRITYThere are also characteristics within the texts themselves whichmark the four Gospels as sober history and neither legend norfictional propaganda. Consider that the Gospel writers set theleading disciples in very poor light (Matthew 14:30, Mark 9:33f,Luke 22:54f). Notice as well that they included hard words by Jesus,which in fact repelled many hearers (Matthew 21:28f, Luke 9:23f,John 8:39f).

One distinction of the four Gospels is that their famed treasure ofgood news lies not nakedly on the surface, but hidden behind bothchallenge (Mark 8:34f, John 12:25f)[9] and threat (Matthew 25:31f).Such characteristics would have been counter-productive topropagandists. Their presence in the Gospels demonstrates thewillingness of the evangelists to tell the truth, howeverembarrassing or inconvenient.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------THE TEXT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT IS FIRMLY ESTABLISHEDSome express concern that the Bible may have been altered downthrough the centuries. It is to this matter that Textual Criticsaddress themselves. They have discovered entire manuscripts and partsof others, one portion dating to the beginning of the 2nd Century.The New Testament has far better textual support than do the works ofPlato, Aristotle, Herodotus, or Tacitus,[10] whose contents no oneseriously questions. In addition, the New Testament documents havealways been both public, and widely-disseminated. Thus it would beimpossible for any party to have materially changed their contents,just as the Declaration of Independence, for example, as a publicdocument, could not have been privately altered without raisingnotice and creating public furor. Sir Frederic Kenyon, formerDirector of the British Museum, comments:

"The interval between the dates of the original composition and theearliest extant evidence [i.e. our oldest manuscripts] becomes sosmall as to be negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt thatthe scriptures have come down to us substantially as they werewritten has now been removed."[11]

In conclusion, it is not necessary that the New Testament be treatedwith "kid gloves" and backed up by special pleading. Simply allow itto be subject to the very same historical-critical standards thatClassical historians apply to secular literature. When equaltreatment is permitted its course, the Gospels fully pass the test.[12]NEXT -- How do we know that Christ really rose from the dead?

REFERENCES AND FOOTNOTES

N.T. Wright of Oxford University writes that the four canonicalGospels do fit into the broad genre of Hellenistic biography. SeeN.T. Wright, Who Was Jesus? (Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1992), p. 73f.[up]

Sir William Ramsey, St. Paul the Traveller and Roman Citizen (GrandRapids, Michigan: Baker Book House reprint; 1949 from 1894lectures). Intent on discrediting Luke's writings, in the lastcentury this hostile scholar traveled across the Mediterranean tothat end. But he was astonished to discover that his archaeologicalfindings confirmed the full accuracy of the customs, locations, andthe governing titles (e.g. "magistrates" Acts 16:35; "proconsul" Acts18:12) Luke had mentioned. These varied widely from region toregion. Ramsey concluded, "Great historians are the rarest ofwriters...[I regard Luke] among the historians of the first rank"(pp. 3-4). [up]

W.F. Albright, The Archaeology of Palestine and the Bible (Revell,1935), p. 127. [up]

"Synchronism" means the tying together of unrelated events into asingle timeline. [up]

A.N. Sherwin-White, Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament(Oxford, 1963). Sherwin-White is a renowned Oxford historian whowrites, "It is astonishing that while Graeco-Roman historians havebeen growing in confidence, the 20th century study of the Gospelnarratives, starting from no-less-promising material, has taken sogloomy a turn in the developments of form criticism... That thedegree of confirmation in Graeco-Roman terms is less for the Gospelsthan for [The Book of] Acts is due... to the differences in theirregional setting. As soon as Christ enters the Roman orbit inJerusalem [e.g., Herod and Pontius Pilate] confirmation begins. ForActs [authored by Luke], the confirmation of historicity isoverwhelming." (p. 107f) [up]

"Synoptic" means to describe Jesus in a similar way (syn = together;optos = sight). [up]

The closest we get to the original documents of each of thementioned secular Classical writers is between 900 and 1300 years.By contrast, the "John Rylands Fragment" of the New Testament,containing John 18:31-33, has been dated as early as 115 A.D. Entiremanuscripts of the New Testament can be dated to within 300 years ofits completion. Virtually complete New Testament books as well asextensive fragments, can be dated to within 100 years of its close.Nearly the entire New Testament can be found in quotations by theearly Christian writers. See Frederick Fyvie Bruce, The NewTestament Documents: Are They Reliable? (Downer's Grove, IL:InterVarsity Press, 1972), p. 14f. [up]

Military historian C. Sanders lists three tests in his Introductionto Research in English Literary History (New York: Macmillan, 1952),p. 143f. And seven factors are cited by Behan McCullagh as criteriafor valid analysis of historical documents.[a] Using these sets ofstandards, John Warwick Montgomery[b] and William Lane Craig[c]respectively, roundly vindicate the Gospel accounts of Jesus' life,death, and resurrection. Renowned Oxford Classical historian MichaelGrant, writes, "If we apply the same criteria that we would apply toother ancient literary sources, the evidence is firm and plausibleenough to necessitate the conclusion that the tomb was indeed foundempty."[d] And Paul Meier writes, "If all the evidence is weighedcarefully and fairly, it is indeed justifiable, according to thecanons of historical research, to conclude that [Jesus' tomb] wasactually empty... And no shred of evidence has yet been discoveredin literary sources, epigraphy, or archaeology that would disprovethis statement."[e] [up][Also read the facts about "The Jesus Seminar" criticisms.]