Thornton, Marleau, Doug Wilson, early playoff losses, and the Sharks’ cushiony culture of extreme no pressure

* Obviously this would’ve been better timed if this was posted several weeks ago, back when the Sharks were finishing up their up 3-0/oops-lose-the-series loss flail job to the Kings, but several other events and stories got in the way. Recently, Doug Wilson and Todd McLellan sat down for a very interesting double-interview on Yahoo Sports Talk Live a few days ago and brought up some of these very same issues. Figured I could weigh back in.

-If you set your franchise up first and foremost to make things comfortable and attractive for your best players, at some point, you’re going to be built primarily around good players who seek comfort first and foremost.

You probably will attract very good, very nice players, as the Sharks have done frequently during in Doug Wilson’s reign. You probably will win many regular-season games and delight the home crowd year after year, during the regular season.

You will have happy players in a happy environment and nobody will ever get mad at anybody and there will be no insidious pressure to do anything other than be happy and be good in the regular season, structured around fan-pleasing stars who smile a lot.

And yet, as the Sharks have proven so often that you’d think they’d have figured it out long ago… comfortable players probably aren’t ones who play the toughest when playoff series get to the breaking point.

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It’s not an either/or thing. I want to make that clear. I’m not saying mean organizations win and nice organizations lose in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

And I understand why the Sharks–and mostly Wilson–did this over the last decade. They want to be a nice, player-friendly organization for many good reasons and have gotten a lot out of their abject player-friendliness.

They’re a West Coast outpost attracting Canadian players who have many other options, they’re not LA or even San Francisco, and the Sharks feel a little insecure about this.

They want to sell San Jose as a safe, secure, warm, undemanding area for stars to come and raise their kids and not come under the intense media/fan/management microscope of Toronto, Boston, Vancouver, Montreal, New York or any number of other NHL hotbeds.

And Thornton has flourished here in every way that I can judge, except the getting-to-a-Stanley-Cup-finals part.

But together, they’re not exactly the most ferocious leadership tandem–and the room does look to those two guys, they are the tone-setters–in the NHL or the Western Conference or even in this state.

This is what the Sharks have done, though, and it has worked, to a point. Lots of winning seasons. Lots of smiles. Lots of comfortable times in that locker room. Lots of nice contracts to nice guys and Doug Wilson has never once had to fret about players taking the Sharks’ organization seriously.

This is the way he has done it all the way through the point earlier this year when he signed both Thornton and Marleau to three-year extensions that reportedly come with full no-trade clauses.

Wilson did this just a few months ago. When both players were 34 years old. (They will be 37 when the contracts expire.)

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The Sharks’ entire mindset was/is to make this a soft landing place for Thornton, who had been burned in Boston and loves it here, and for their own farm-system products.

Wilson has sold that hard, and it has happened. Players love it here, they walk through Santana Row without getting bothered much, they have 17,500 adoring fans at SAP Center every night, and they don’t get bugged by cameras or annoying reporters very often.

They’ve won a lot of games because they have a lot of talent; players who come here like it here and players who aren’t here want to come here. Because playing here is easy. There aren’t a lot of demands, there is no true do-or-die imperative, and that makes for fun/loose hockey.

Except when they get to the playoffs and other talented (and tougher) teams start throwing hay-makers at the Sharks.

Then it isn’t so much fun any more. Then it’s time to get tough, to feel the imperative, and once somebody has knocked the Sharks down in a playoff series, they almost always stay down.

Which is sort of a big deal in this sport.

Again, I’m not saying management has to make it unnecessarily and outrageously unpleasant for players who consistently don’t win the Stanley Cup.

But when the entire focus of a franchise is to cater to the moods and happiness of two stars in particular, it’s not a surprise that the tougher moments often produce the worst results. That there is a self-fulfilling lack of mental fortitude in your core players because you’ve based your organizational philosophy on making things easy for them–easy to play, easy to stay.

Players don’t come to the Sharks to win a Cup. They come to be treated like it doesn’t actually matter much.

–I don’t exactly know what culture the Kings have built with Darryl Sutter and Dean Lombardi (hey, two former Sharks leaders), but it’s pretty clear it’s not about comfort and it’s not secretly based on insecurity about their status in the hockey land.

OK, in the aftermath of the first-round debacle, it’s pretty clear that Wilson is changing his mind about the kind of culture he wants.

My point is that I don’t understand why it has taken Wilson so long.

I told a veteran NHL employee not long ago that I finally was starting to understand why the Sharks tailored their franchise to Thornton and Marleau all these years. They’ve got the rare duo of aging stars who are sustaining their level of play (in the regular season) while being OK deferring gradually to the younger set of Sharks.

That doesn’t always happen. I get that Thornton and Marleau are very, very nice guys. I told the NHL person that I was beginning to get the philosophy.

“Well, let’s wait and see what happens in the playoffs on that one,” the NHL person said.

Great point. And: Oh man. I take back what I said to that guy: The Thornton/Marleau culture (not all their fault, it was set up by Wilson) is a playoff killer and has to end immediately… if the Sharks want to be serious about chasing a Cup.

I’ve written this before: If a player is as nonchalant about losing the captaincy as Marleau was a few years back, I’m not sure if I want him on the team.

Leadership isn’t about being nice and accepting to management whims. It’s about fighting through things, and who does that on the Sharks? They’ve really never been required to.

So now Wilson and McLellan talk about re-setting the culture, turning the mantle over to younger players, getting mentally tougher and maybe seeing if they can trade Marleau and/or Thornton, among many others.

It’s a different-sounding Wilson, but I wonder how quickly he can turn this thing because he has pushed the comfort thing for so long.

OK, we know that Logan Couture has a decidedly non-Marleau/Thornton edge to him. Which is good. And Joe Pavelski might get the “C” as soon as next season.

Tomas Hertl will be an interesting player to watch. There are others…

But it won’t matter if the Sharks continue to be the happiest place on earth to lose in the first or second round.

one reason i cancelled my season tickets.. they skate soft in the playoffs..

Sbaorbaby

Not surprising that someone who probably only watches the Sharks a handful of games during the year doesnt know what he’s talking about…

SC

I watch the Sharks plenty, a diehard fan. I agree with TK’s view mostly.

Rodrigues_Islander

It is certainly beginning to look like the opening round loss to the Kings was no upset. That said, the Sharks are going to have to begin the transition to new player leadership. Guys like Thornton and Marleau are nearing the end of the run, and Couture, Pavelsky and Hertl have to be the new leaders.

Jerry T

Its easy to say they sell San Jose as a nice, safe, secure low pressure atmosphere….. but it would be more credible to substantiate it somehow. The fact it is being posted after the playoff loss …. doesn’t help that credibility. I am not saying he is wrong …but I am saying it is easy to throw speculation around and hope it’s in the neighborhood of fact.

It would also be appropriate for him to make some comments on what changing the changing would entail …..otherwise what is he bringing to the table?

ds207

Thorton and Marleau are indeed nice guys who just don’t have the fire to lead the team through the playoffs and into the cup finals. It is fine for Wilson to talk about letting the younger maybe more aggressive players start leading the team, but I don’t see much of this happening until Thorton and Marleau are gone. They are just not mentally tough, and are not qualified to lead the team being such softies themselves. Nice guys who are ok being one and done in the playoffs, and then waiting until next season.

ZEKE

its easy to make certain criticisms. But why is no one mentioning the huge ice time that Pavelski and Marleau had this year? Both 10 top in minutes for forwards (including Olympics). Thornton wasn’t far behind. Should a 34 year old by top 5 in the league in minutes — then expect to ‘step it up’ come playoff time? When the injury list came out, both Pavs and Marleau had significant injuries. Coach needs to realize there are still important games to be played AFTER the regular season ends.

Wilson went after Cup experience and grit. It blew up on him. Burish didn’t play, Torres admitted to skating on one leg and Tyler Kennedy didn’t fit. That’s 10% of payroll with essentially no contribution.

The major issue isn’t Thornton or Marleau’s leadership — its that they shouldn’t be carrying that load alone. Chicago has Toews and Keith. Kings have Kopitar and Doughty. Ducks have Perry and Getzlaf. Thornton and Marleau are very good players, those other players are elite.

This team needs to win with its depth.

Bustherrr

Seems like the 49ers had much the same approach in the 80’s and early 90’s when they won a few playoff games, but I guess Timmy can’t remember that far back, being such a hack writer. How they treated players helped them, what eventually hurt them most was the SCap. Marleau lead the team in scoring in the playoffs, so troll like to slam him again, when so many others disappeared. So few times you write anything really insightful, get over yourself.

LA is a really, really good team, probably even better then now then when they won the SCup. The salary cap era would seem to favor teams that are bad enough that they able to draft high for 5-7 years and so have a lot of young top end talent as well as depth, that is still pretty cheap, giving them more Cap flexibility to pick up players like Hossa, Sharp, or Carter, Gaborik, Richards etc. to put them over the top.

Kind of like how the current 49ers, have gotten back to the top.

Rusty

This article criticized Thornton and Marleau, not Pavelski. It also criticized the PO performance of these players, not regular season. T and M do lack passion and drive (especially Marleau), but IMO, what they really lack is the skill, not just the will.

Rusty

Kings are heads and shoulders above the Sharks. Who said it was an upset? Sharks were lucky to have won 3 games in that series, mainly due to favorable bounces.

Hockeynut

Difference Bustherr is that the Niners in the 80’s and 90’s didn’t have a salary cap to deal with. Times have changed.

Chrisb2313

I understand what he means about Marleau and Thornton, they just dont have that extra gear to ramp up the intensity. Thats why I do hope they keep Pavelski and make him a captain sooner than later.

Ronn Sven

After game 3 of the LAK VS CHI series, A Kings player was asked about team leadership he said “Our LEADERS LEAD!” More than I can say for our Sharks.

Nathaniel

Marleau and Thorton are two of the most skilled players in the league. I can see a question of drive but skill is just absurd

Nathaniel

And the kings were lucky to have won game 6. I think it was closer than you are giving credit. Kings are elite, but the Sharks are that far behind. It’s a matter of performance

John Speranza

I wondered the same thing myself. Also needed is some evidence that comfortable players would perform better if they were less comfortable.

Despite what most writers seem to think, there’s more to hockey than “who wants it more.”

Grinch88

I really want to see couture as captain more than Pavelski. Pavs is great but watching his interviews he talks too much like Joe/Patty.. I think Couture is the man for the C

Fishy

This is why Kama should stick to football and baseball: he doesn’t know squat about hockey. “Players don’t come to SJ to win a cup”–really? I mean, really? Please, criticize the sharks for this season; criticize 19 and 12; criticize Wilson; criticize everything from top to bottom–the sharks need it. But there is a limit, a limit that is well passed once we start questioning the character of the entire organization. Have some respect for our city, our team, and our fans.

Puckmeister

You get respect when you earn respect. If an organization is measured by championships, the Sharks have fallen short consistently. The facts speak for themselves.

Puckmeister

Who is Ronnie Lott on the Sharks??

Fishy

You earn more respect when you win a championship, but to say that our players and our organization has been built for “comfort,” has been built so that things are “easy,” implies that our players and our leadership is not trying to win a championship. That is disrespect. Whether you have won 10 cups or zero, to question the integrity of an organization’s motives is out of line–even more so for someone who doesn’t even follow the sharks on a regular basis.

Rusty

Scoring 2 goals in the last 3 games was not closer that I think!

Rusty

Let’s see. One is slow and can’t control the puck other than facing the boards, the other can’t control the puck anywhere on the ice. If these 2 are the Sharks’ best players, that tells you why the Sharks never get anywhere.

Rusty

It’s the silicon in the water that makes the Sharks complacent. No matter who joins the team, they become losers. Once they leave, they bloom.

Sharkz

Yep. Change needs to happen but there is a very good chance the Sharks will have played this year’s Cup winners tougher than anyone else including the Blackhawks and Ducks. Not convinced that means you dismantle the nucleus. On the other hand, what’s the definition of insanity?

Sean

You can’t deny the nonchalant attitude of the organization after losing year after year. Tim has hit the nail on the head with this article. I’ve felt the same way about Marleau for years! Too many of the players are comfy here and don’t give a crap if they lose because it’ll be business as usual next year – “Go to work, play some hockey all season and if we get knocked out of the playoff’s, well there’s always plenty of sun”. It’s not disrespectful to question certain players motives and to expect some results after paying good money year after year to support this team.

Nathaniel

Yeah, but you’re wrong on both of those things. You don’t get 170 points during the season between the two of those by not being able to handle the puck.

Marleau was a bright spot in the games that they won. You can’t dismantle a team on these 4 games. Too much positive, the grass isn’t always greener

Rusty

It’s not just the last 4 games, it’s the last 10 years!

Samuel Mui

Thornton and Marleau love playing in SJ because there are droves of lenient fans like Fishy who are not indignant due to playoff meltdown after meltdown.

Nathaniel

Let’s see one is a 35+ goal scoring threat every year even now. And one is a top 10 point getter even now, sit down lol