Convenience will win over a marginal quality gain every time. Unless of course, you are a hardcore enthusiast.

Ironic that you would write that. Only the hardcore enthusiasts know how to use Usenet, torrents or other P2P. Others find that kind of stuff too cryptic, difficult and "inconvenient." Much easier just to pop a disc into a player. Everybody understands how to do that.

Ironic that you would write that. Only the hardcore enthusiasts know how to use Usenet, torrents or other P2P. Others find that kind of stuff too cryptic, difficult and "inconvenient." Much easier just to pop a disc into a player. Everybody understands how to do that.

You are right, that some of the technology is still clunky.

But I have just been running Boxee on my AppleTV.
Boxee presents a menu of all my file-based content, alongside available web content for streaming. It even lets me see what friends recommend, highlights new stuff and so on.

The technology is still rough around the edges, but this *feels* like the future.
Driving to the mall to buy a disk full of files, feels like the past.

While the "HD streaming rulez!one11!1!" bandwagon was quickly filling up after Netflix announced that it would be bringing such a service to the Xbox 360, the numbers just don't substantiate the claims that physical discs are doomed anytime soon. Sure, for the budding technophile, streaming is just the next great thing, but for the average joe / jane, the tried and true disc still holds a great deal of importance. A recent study by market research firm SmithGeiger found that out of over 2,000 surveyed, "HDTV owners familiar with Blu-ray favor the format over downloading and streaming by a margin of nearly 10-to-1, with about 70% of respondents citing the fact that there's a physical disc to keep as a key factor in their decision to buy Blu-ray." It also found that 96% of BD users were "familiar with downloading and streaming services, but that two-thirds believe watching a movie on Blu-ray is a better overall entertainment experience." Sure, BD has its flaws, but not having to re-rent an HD film after a remarkably short 24-hour window sure is nice, huh?

By the way, I just picked up Hellboy II on Blu-Ray, and I am loving this whole Digital Copy thing they're doing. I get the highest possible quality experience on my television, and then a crappy little digital version of the movie for my iPhone and computer. It's like digital downloads, but without all the suckage of paying $15 just for a crappy little download you have to back up to physical media yourself.

Streaming is not a good solution.
Imagine how lame iTunes would be if it were constrained by streaming!

C.

Honestly, I'd prefer streaming my digital content whenever I pleased as opposed to the current system where I can only download it once and then must back it up myself to avoid losing my purchases to hard drive failure. If Apple kept tabs on what you purchased and allowed you to redownload it if needbe, one of the issues with digital distribution would be solved.

Also I've seen what's available online. BD beats it hands down! It's not just a " marginal quality " issue!

There is no bandwidth issue. A good quality 720p HD movie can be downloaded in less than an hour. In the future this time period will reduce dramatically. Audio, video, games. They are all just zeros and ones.

As for the studio issue. That is their problem. It's their job to align themselves to the audience, not the other way around.

Blu Ray does offer a good quality image. Just as SACD offers great quality audio.
But the problem is that hardly anyone is geared up to make use of that quality.
The average TV viewing distance is 8-12 feet. On a 46" screen 1080p is indistinguishable from 720p at more than 6".

To collectors and people with projection TVs, the additional resolution matters.
To the mass audience that were attracted to DVD, the BluRay benefits are marginal.

You have to remember that for most people DVD supplanted VHS. The gains were substantial.

There is no bandwidth issue. A good quality 720p HD movie can be downloaded in less than an hour. In the future this time period will reduce dramatically. Audio, video, games. They are all just zeros and ones.

As for the studio issue. That is their problem. It's their job to align themselves to the audience, not the other way around.

Blu Ray does offer a good quality image. Just as SACD offers great quality audio.
But the problem is that hardly anyone is geared up to make use of that quality.
The average TV viewing distance is 8-12 feet. On a 46" screen 1080p is indistinguishable from 720p at more than 6".

To collectors and people with projection TVs, the additional resolution matters.
To the mass audience that were attracted to DVD, the BluRay benefits are marginal.

You have to remember that for most people DVD supplanted VHS. The gains were substantial.

BluRay's *only* real advantage is image-quality. The mass audience are not dissatisfied with DVD's image quality.

C.

I see you're just restating your case again and ignoring what we've discussed before.

Quote:

BluRay's *only* real advantage is image-quality.

This is not a true statement for reasons that have already been discussed. Just saying over and over again won't make it true. Wishful thinking won't either. Downloading may be the wave of the future but you'll be a lot older by that time. To truly take over as the main way people watch and purchase movies will be at least 10 years and probably more.

Denial is in Egypt.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

Well.... if you regularly purchase/rent HDM contents on optical discs, you should know that only small portion of the HDM contents actually use full advantage of 1080p. There are more HD contents out there with only marginal improvements over the SD-DVD counterpart. Even with absolutely perfect 1080p video transfer contents of a digital master will have less "wow" effect on normal consumer hardware setup environment. Especially, if you're viewing them with less than 50 or even 60" screen at 8 to 10' away, you're only fooling yourself. Only very few enthusiast with an eagle eye may tell the difference between 720p vs. 1080p contents at 8 to 10' away using less than 50" screen. Most consumers would think sd-dvd upconvert at such viewing distance would look as good as most HD contents, because majority of HD contents on optical discs are not in the same quality as ratatouille or BD. Try playing SD version of ratatouille and make a comparison yourself. Sadly enough, only about 10% of HDM contents on optical discs truly deserves 1080p claim. I don't think most consumers are that blind and just believe that all HD contents are better than SD.

Sorry if I am repeating myself. But my arguments don't seem to be finding any counter arguments. Punditry not withstanding.

So let's leave this discussion here.

I'll shut up - but I though I would end my contribution with this quick bit of punditry of my own.

Sony's attempt to upgrade DVD with BluRay has failed. But not completely. BluRay will continue to slowly pick up sales, but it is being squeezed from two directions. DVD which continues to offer better value and pure-digital which will is free to grow and adapt far more rapidly.

Sony made a bad situation worse by linking BluRay technology to the PS3, which damaged both the release date and the price of its console. They tried to create a Trojan horse and instead they created an an Achilles heel.

As a result, Sony's bedrock brand; Playstation, has been damaged and has lost market share to Microsoft and Nintendo. The timing could not have been worse. Sony depended on massive profits from Playstation. The double failure of PSP and PS3 is remarkable. Despite massive support from Sony, it is unlikely that PS3 will ever go into profit.

Sony are bleeding from the cost of staging a format war at the wrong time with the wrong technology.

Sony have done this before. Long ago they were the undisputed world leader in portable audio. They lost that lead by adopting MiniDisc instead of going to MP3. Now Apple have what they had. This happened because the market squarely rejected Minidisc and preferred the convenience of "pure digital".

This is what happens if you tell an audience what it wants, rather than listen to what it needs.

Rewind 4 years and check out the heated discussions of MP3 versus Minidisc. They sound incredibly like this discussion above. You'll see the same arguments.

In four years time, the movie distribution technology will be split 3 ways. BluRay will be larger, But it will be squeezed between DVD and digital.

In four years time, episodic TV distribution technology will be split 3 ways. Cable will be smaller, and it will be squeezed between free-to-air and digital.

Hmm there is a something in that there venn diagram.
In four years we can come back to see who is right.

Downloading may be the wave of the future but you'll be a lot older by that time. To truly take over as the main way people watch and purchase movies will be at least 10 years and probably more.

Denial is in Egypt.

Jimmac, I understand that you're part of the older generation here at AI, but you do need to understand that most of the denial is coming from you.

I'm not a huge movie watcher, and I am careful to procure my movies in a legal way.
(this may have something to do with my religious beliefs...)

However, I personally know of many people whose home movie experience is powered almost entirely by the downloading experience. And not the MPAA-approved kind. I suspect that many of the younger folks here at AI know even more people who do this than I do.

Movie Downloading is already here, and will only get bigger from here on. Pretending that today's bandwidth isn't up to it or that people will wait for studio approvals is the kind of pathetic nonsense that got the music business into the death spiral it's in.

Just as we look at 8-tracks, cassettes and VHS tapes today as outdated, the coming generation will look at physical discs as irrelevant. Personal digital locker technology is here, and when the industry realizes that the disc era is really over, the merger of MobileMe with iTunes will be something to behold.

Jimmac, I understand that you're part of the older generation here at AI, but you do need to understand that most of the denial is coming from you.

I'm not a huge movie watcher, and I am careful to procure my movies in a legal way.
(this may have something to do with my religious beliefs...)

However, I personally know of many people whose home movie experience is powered almost entirely by the downloading experience. And not the MPAA-approved kind. I suspect that many of the younger folks here at AI know even more people who do this than I do.

Movie Downloading is already here, and will only get bigger from here on. Pretending that today's bandwidth isn't up to it or that people will wait for studio approvals is the kind of pathetic nonsense that got the music business into the death spiral it's in.

Just as we look at 8-tracks, cassettes and VHS tapes today as outdated, the coming generation will look at physical discs as irrelevant. Personal digital locker technology is here, and when the industry realizes that the disc era is really over, the merger of MobileMe with iTunes will be something to behold.

Frank I figured it was about time you chimed in. Well Bill Hunt of " The Digital Bits " knows alot more about this than any of us! Did you even read what I posted from his web site? If you look at this logically it's not a matter of old or new it's a matter of these issues ( the studios, bandwidth, portability etc. ) which aren't going away by themselves. Until they're solved downloading will be the realm of the renter and the pirate. Pure and simple.

Ps. And yes Frank if you look back through this thread you'll see we've already checked into the fact that people ( for some time now ) spend way more on purchasing video than they do renting.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

Sorry if I am repeating myself. But my arguments don't seem to be finding any counter arguments. Punditry not withstanding.

So let's leave this discussion here.

I'll shut up - but I though I would end my contribution with this quick bit of punditry of my own.

Sony's attempt to upgrade DVD with BluRay has failed. But not completely. BluRay will continue to slowly pick up sales, but it is being squeezed from two directions. DVD which continues to offer better value and pure-digital which will is free to grow and adapt far more rapidly.

Sony made a bad situation worse by linking BluRay technology to the PS3, which damaged both the release date and the price of its console. They tried to create a Trojan horse and instead they created an an Achilles heel.

As a result, Sony's bedrock brand; Playstation, has been damaged and has lost market share to Microsoft and Nintendo. The timing could not have been worse. Sony depended on massive profits from Playstation. The double failure of PSP and PS3 is remarkable. Despite massive support from Sony, it is unlikely that PS3 will ever go into profit.

Sony are bleeding from the cost of staging a format war at the wrong time with the wrong technology.

Sony have done this before. Long ago they were the undisputed world leader in portable audio. They lost that lead by adopting MiniDisc instead of going to MP3. Now Apple have what they had. This happened because the market squarely rejected Minidisc and preferred the convenience of "pure digital".

This is what happens if you tell an audience what it wants, rather than listen to what it needs.

Rewind 4 years and check out the heated discussions of MP3 versus Minidisc. They sound incredibly like this discussion above. You'll see the same arguments.

In four years time, the movie distribution technology will be split 3 ways. BluRay will be larger, But it will be squeezed between DVD and digital.

In four years time, episodic TV distribution technology will be split 3 ways. Cable will be smaller, and it will be squeezed between free-to-air and digital.

Hmm there is a something in that there venn diagram.
In four years we can come back to see who is right.

Signing off..

C.

Quote:

But my arguments don't seem to be finding any counter arguments

Uh no. You just seem to be looking the other way when presented with the facts.

Quote:

This is what happens if you tell an audience what it wants, rather than listen to what it needs.

'
Most of them out there are kind of pragmatic. They're much more likely in this case to keep on doing what they're doing right now.

Quote:

In four years time, the movie distribution technology will be split 3 ways. BluRay will be larger, But it will be squeezed between DVD and digital.

In four years time, episodic TV distribution technology will be split 3 ways. Cable will be smaller, and it will be squeezed between free-to-air and digital.

Can you say ignoring the facts type pipe dream?

Quote:

In four years we can come back to see who is right.

Yes we can if you'd like.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

Ahh the 2012 BD thread in which bitemymac will STILL be saying HDM and resolutely complaining that (s)he won't be buying BD till the players reach the magical $50 price range... you KNOW joe six pack will get a mention cos $50 "is the tipping point at which he will buy"

I look forward to it, the New Star Trek movie should be out on BD by then..

the PS3 (which Bite and frank STILL won't buy) will be available for bugger all money and M$ will be pushing their new-ish Red Ring Of Death machine, the x-box 370.

thats IF they are still in business.. that is if Apple keeps them open as a division after their acquisition in 2011?? who knows.

the thing I want to know however is.. will this thread still be in future hardware? as in, will Apple have released a Mac with a BD capable drive in it?

see you all there.

W.S.

I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

Ahh the 2012 BD thread in which bitemymac will STILL be saying HDM and resolutely complaining that (s)he won't be buying BD till the players reach the magical $50 price range... you KNOW joe six pack will get a mention cos $50 "is the tipping point at which he will buy"

I look forward to it, the New Star Trek movie should be out on BD by then..

the PS3 (which Bite and frank STILL won't buy) will be available for bugger all money and M$ will be pushing their new-ish Red Ring Of Death machine, the x-box 370.

thats IF they are still in business.. that is if Apple keeps them open as a division after their acquisition in 2011?? who knows.

the thing I want to know however is.. will this thread still be in future hardware? as in, will Apple have released a Mac with a BD capable drive in it?

see you all there.

W.S.

Hahaha.... of course, you'll also be here and still playing with your PS3, because it's bigger than life for ya. Force is strong with PS3 kids.

The biggest difference in my experience is the quality of work that has gone into blu-ray products. Studios like Disney and Sony have consistently banged out extremely high quality discs, complete with extra features, extensive video remastering (see Godfather trilogy on BD), house-rumbling audio, and brilliant menu systems. Because of the ability to sell a higher-priced blu-ray disc (as opposed to just the digital copy), many take the job of delivering a top-notch experience very seriously, and customers reap the benefits, whether they rent or purchase. This leads to a viewing experience that can't be touched by any other medium.

Regarding data delivery, HD downloads will be managed to max out at a bitrate of around 4-10mbps, maybe lower than even DVD quality. Mathematically, were talking about a huge difference here in quality that you can actually see and hear. The video alone on blu-ray approaches 20-30 mbps, and the audio approaches 1.5 mbps. Thats alot of data coming through your screen and speakers, and this data translates directly to your senses. Increasing bitrates from 5-10mbps means (roughly) doubling the size and time it takes to download. Its not worth the trouble for such a small improvement. And who's to say that ISPs will even let us download multiple 3-5GB movies every month?

My point is that quality differences are not limited to pixels. BD is a product that is better than its downloaded counterpart in every possible way.

so.... anyone actually buying BD movie discs, lately?... I saw some newly released titles dropping in price to $19.99 from $25+ at amazon. I almost pulled the trigger, but I thought it may get much lower during the holidays. I have no must have titles on my list with my current TV setup, which forces me to be a very patient shopper.

Is the bad economy also influencing gaming console market or just the HDM market?

Either way, it's not helping with Apple adopting BD optical drives any time soon.

so.... anyone actually buying BD movie discs, lately?... I saw some newly released titles dropping in price to $19.99 from $25+ at amazon. I almost pulled the trigger, but I thought it may get much lower during the holidays. I have no must have titles on my list with my current TV setup, which forces me to be a very patient shopper.

...

I've committed to BD and am buying those discs that appeal to me, usually one or two a month. I bought Wall-e on release and recently picked up Polar Express, A Room with a View, and the Orphanage on a B2GO. I'm also looking forward to some of the Criterion releases scheduled for December.

so.... anyone actually buying BD movie discs, lately?... I saw some newly released titles dropping in price to $19.99 from $25+ at amazon. I almost pulled the trigger, but I thought it may get much lower during the holidays. I have no must have titles on my list with my current TV setup, which forces me to be a very patient shopper.

Is the bad economy also influencing gaming console market or just the HDM market?

Either way, it's not helping with Apple adopting BD optical drives any time soon.

Yet another flawed assumption from the mind and fingers of bitemymac. Every economic expert I've seen says items like HDTVs will actually be less affected by the downturn. It's been common knowledge for years that in bad times, people want to cocoon at home, and HDTVs and other such gadgets are good for that.

bitemymac almost ready to buy Blu-ray. Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it. This is a guy who was basically second only to HMurchison for rabid hatred of Blu-ray. I'm pretty sure Murch never bought Blu-ray, because Toshiba didn't satisfy either of his conditions for purchase: that either HD DVD win the format war outright, or at least hold on for a few years to give Blu-ray some competition.

Yup. Been picking up all of the major releases that have been coming out (Iron Man, Hulk, Hellboy II, Wall*E), and just ordered last year's Live Free or Die Hard and Mad Men season one from Amazon. I've been waiting for LFDH to go on sale, and today the price dropped from it's never-moving $27 to a very reasonable $17. Likewise, Mad Men season one only cost $18 (list price $50). Pretty awesome.

I've noticed that most stores are listing The Dark Knight Blu-Ray for $24, which includes two discs of content and a digital copy. That's only $2-$3 more than the two disc DVD special edition. Hopefully that's a trend for Blu-Ray releases.

so.... anyone actually buying BD movie discs, lately?... I saw some newly released titles dropping in price to $19.99 from $25+ at amazon. I almost pulled the trigger, but I thought it may get much lower during the holidays. I have no must have titles on my list with my current TV setup, which forces me to be a very patient shopper.

Is the bad economy also influencing gaming console market or just the HDM market?

Either way, it's not helping with Apple adopting BD optical drives any time soon.

but you were willing to buy HD-DVD on that same setup? that kind of implies that either your setup wouldnt have taken advantage of HD-DVD or that BD is superior in PQ or sound?

funny

I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

I was in Zeller's the other day and noticed a lot of HD-DVDs for $6.99. Even Transformers was in this bin. If I had an HD-DVD player, I would have been all over these. I doubt any of them are moving anytime soon.

I was in Zeller's the other day and noticed a lot of HD-DVDs for $6.99. Even Transformers was in this bin. If I had an HD-DVD player, I would have been all over these. I doubt any of them are moving anytime soon.

Anyone getting Step Brothers or Prince Caspian on Tuesday?

I would be interested if available locally. You can still buy cheap HD-DVD player new or used, or a LG combo drive is only about $100 these days. Regardless of the optical disc format, HDM is just HDM stored in some sort of media. It can be easily converted to any future formats at later time.

but you were willing to buy HD-DVD on that same setup? that kind of implies that either your setup wouldnt have taken advantage of HD-DVD or that BD is superior in PQ or sound?

funny

What an idiot!.... Only from a PS3 owner you're expected to hear such mindless things,"that kind of implies that either your setup wouldnt have taken advantage of HD-DVD or that BD is superior in PQ or sound?"

BTW, all my HT stuffs not worthy of BD's superial PQ & AQ are in storage, but that should not stop you being an idiot.

Hey PS3 how do you feel being outsold by the 360 during Black Friday Weekend by 3-1 ?

Where's all the jokers claiming the PS3 was going to outsell the 360 after boasting three or four measly weeks at the top (mainly due to MGS4) during the slowest time of the year for gaming...come on ladies show yourselves, don't be scared

I'm not a gamer so I won't own either, but it's pretty common knowledge that the 360's sales advantage came mostly because of its price drop. If Sony's execs weren't such boneheads by insisting on not lowering their prices, they'd be in the running.

By the way, isn't this the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD thread? So, Elixir, how did that MS embrace of HD DVD work out for you?

I'm not a gamer so I won't own either, but it's pretty common knowledge that the 360's sales advantage came mostly because of its price drop. If Sony's execs weren't such boneheads by insisting on not lowering their prices, they'd be in the running.

By the way, isn't this the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD thread? So, Elixir, how did that MS embrace of HD DVD work out for you?

Yes, yes always an excuse. Bottom line is the 360 has the better gaming library, online, remote, and overall better entertainment value.

Whatever the case, the point still stands- the ps3 is a poor gaming machine and a mediocre entertainment hub.

As is the point of your argument--being poor and mediocre. This is your opinion, nothing more...not some fact as you peddle it to be.

As OldCodger pointed out, this may have history in the context of this thread, but there really is no significance to your argument when you are taking a snapshot of sales from one day with obviously the discrepancy of price being ignored by you and trying to apply credibility to your argument that the PS3 is a "poor gaming machine and a mediocre entertainment hub."

We understand your dislike of anything Sony...we get it...now get over your love of the Xbox and lets discuss the merits and real shortcomings of the victorious Blu-ray format and its inevitable inclusion into Mac hardware.

Yeah yeah yeah I've presented my argument in various forms here through out this gen and everything I've ever said was tip toed around just like you are doing now. Fact still remains that the PS3 is too expensive because they added unneeded hardware and technology into a gaming platform and expected their fanbase to swallow it.

For this reason game development was costly and difficult on their platform and now the 360 is mopping floor. If I were you I'd try not to look at the entire holiday sales figures and hope the difference remains 3-1.

There is no bandwidth issue. A good quality 720p HD movie can be downloaded in less than an hour. In the future this time period will reduce dramatically. Audio, video, games. They are all just zeros and ones.

As for the studio issue. That is their problem. It's their job to align themselves to the audience, not the other way around.

Blu Ray does offer a good quality image. Just as SACD offers great quality audio.
But the problem is that hardly anyone is geared up to make use of that quality.
The average TV viewing distance is 8-12 feet. On a 46" screen 1080p is indistinguishable from 720p at more than 6".

To collectors and people with projection TVs, the additional resolution matters.
To the mass audience that were attracted to DVD, the BluRay benefits are marginal.

You have to remember that for most people DVD supplanted VHS. The gains were substantial.