The primary goal of this site is to provide mature, meaningful discussion about the Vancouver Canucks. However, we all need a break some time so this forum is basically for anything off-topic, off the wall, or to just get something off your chest! This forum is named after poster Creeper, who passed away in July of 2011 and was a long time member of the Canucks message board community.

This is the problem with referendums, they may be the truest form of democracy in a sense but the majority of the population doesn't know anything beyond snazzy catchphrases and logos and thus have no real idea what the true issues are. This is going to cost the government of BC as well as businesses a lot of money, in terms of pure financial losses as well as losses associated with decreased productivity and extra costs which were associated with having two taxes. I really wish that the Liberal Party would have just sucked up the negative publicity and not gone about the referendum where an educated economists opinion is worth as much as a crack addict or a fat security guard.

Maxwell Edison wrote:This is the problem with referendums, they may be the truest form of democracy in a sense but the majority of the population doesn't know anything beyond snazzy catchphrases and logos and thus have no real idea what the true issues are. This is going to cost the government of BC as well as businesses a lot of money, in terms of pure financial losses as well as losses associated with decreased productivity and extra costs which were associated with having two taxes. I really wish that the Liberal Party would have just sucked up the negative publicity and not gone about the referendum where an educated economists opinion is worth as much as a crack addict or a fat security guard.

crack addicts likely didnt vote...but there are likely waaay more fat security guards than there are educated economists...

That is true - however with any referendum, especially one that involves a complex issue such as the HST (how many people have a good understanding of economics). Hell watching Vander Zalm ramble on about the subject shows that he doesn't have a clue either and he is supposed to be the educated ringleader of the entire thing, in fact half the videos that I have seen show him resorting to strawman tactics at best, in fact I saw him attack someone for being educated in a video (that he was a law student).

People don't know the facts and this is going to harm people and the economy.

Maxwell Edison wrote:This is the problem with referendums, they may be the truest form of democracy in a sense but the majority of the population doesn't know anything beyond snazzy catchphrases and logos and thus have no real idea what the true issues are. This is going to cost the government of BC as well as businesses a lot of money, in terms of pure financial losses as well as losses associated with decreased productivity and extra costs which were associated with having two taxes. I really wish that the Liberal Party would have just sucked up the negative publicity and not gone about the referendum where an educated economists opinion is worth as much as a crack addict or a fat security guard.

Although I voted NO, I understand where the YES votes were coming from. They were coming from those that felt the government abandoned them and only thought of businesses etc. The people that are making the outcry are lower-income families, those below the poverty-line and those just trying to make ends meet. They felt they were lied to, had something forced upon them without their voice being heard, and had to make changes in their daily budgets to accommodate the extras like taking the kids to a movie, etc because 12% was a lot to stomach in their eyes.

Agree with them or not, at least it's the people who are speaking this time. Had Campbell and the Liberals had explained the HST in layman's terms to the 'common folk', I betcha the HST would be in place right now, and no one is all ruffled about it. Unfortunately for this province, it didn't happen that way.

I'd rather not be switching back to the old system, but I understand from where the angst stems. In the famous words of the Bertuzzi incident ala 2004, "It is, what it is."

The only people who I think get a bit stiffed in this is the middle income earners who don't make enough for the quarterly HST rebate. The immediate and the most visible cost is the increase in cost in activities such as movies as you mentioned and other entertainment - however if someone qualifies for the rebate I have a hard time believing that they would be spending more than the difference on the increased taxation of these activities. If someone is struggling to get by and is living below the poverty line, I don't think that they are going to be spending obscene amounts of money on entertainment, restaurants and the like. In fact the only thing going up in price that I didn't agree with was bicycles because they are able to have a positive environmental impact and are good for the province as a whole in terms of health care and reducing traffic congestion.

Edit: A lot of those things already had GST I believe, so it is more of a 7% increase rather than a 12% increase.

The fear mongering started with 'new homes' and continued through. Seeing as so many people buy new homes in the lower mainland it got legs. I have yet to figure out how it would save my businesses money to harmonize both taxes, it's never been explained to me in a way where I could apply it to my revenue and accounting and saw "wow, what a deal".

However, we pay 12 points on almost everything aside from groceries who gives a fuck.

Brick Top: Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.

Businesses save money in that it is much more simple to calculate HST and get everything in order HST wise rather than having two separate taxes and the associated accounting. There are also tax savings which would otherwise be passed on to the consumer in theory at least.

Maxwell Edison wrote:Businesses save money in that it is much more simple to calculate HST and get everything in order HST wise rather than having two separate taxes and the associated accounting. There are also tax savings which would otherwise be passed on to the consumer in theory at least.

Ya thats the real Fantasy Gardens in this whole mess.

There is no doubt the PST system is not an effective tax but that hardly means the HST was the answer. To suggest people voting for the YES side were uneducated in the economical benefits of the move to the HST is ignorant and insulting. People got it and understood there are pros & cons to either system. The fact is this wasn't about a "better" taxation system, this was about a tax SHIFT onto the backs of consumers. This was about lies & deceit. The Liberals began this mess w/ lies, didn't learn their lesson, and continued lying all the way to the very end w/ the multi-million dollar stickman "info" campaign.

The government keeps lying to your face and you're supposed to believe that this is in your best interest? There will be financial benefits & lower costs in 10-15yrs? This was promised by the then finance minister who also still says w/ a straight face that BC Rail was never sold and is adamant about it.

If the province wants to move away from the PST to a better form of taxation that is fair...and doesn't cook it up in secrecy, lie about it and then ram it down BC's throats then the people would accept it guaranteed. There would be no uprising or referendum campaign.

One thing people should not is, after the petition signatures were ruled successful by Elections BC, the Liberals had a choice to avoid the $20million referendum by holding a vote in the legislature. They chickened out. They could have voted this thing in and it would have been over right then and there. The fact is, Gordo & co didn't want this blood on their hands. They were still pointing fingers at "The Harper Government" and Ontario and saying their hands were tied. They also were afraid that MLAs would have possibly voted it down (you know that party division in the coalition between true Liberals and card-carrying Conservatives). Nevertheless they had the opportunity to end it (either way) right there and then and could have saved $25+million in the process.

Agreed so lets bring in a European style VAT @20+% and do away with income tax for anyone making less than $100,000 and tier it up to incomes of $500,000+. A shift from business to consumers has been going on for decades, enough is enough. The HST was the final straw. Everyone needs to pay their fair share, somehow...but there needs to be balance in whatever system is implemented. This is all window dressing anyways, the global financial problems run far deeper than our little over priced bubble in BC.

Wow, turns out that $2.8 BILLION hole is actually only $300 million according to Finance Minister Falcon. (man is he getting thrown to the wolves by Clark et al....kinda feel for the guy). I'm sure it wasn't scare tactics during the referendum and was simply a misplaced decimal point.