MindBogler wrote:The reporting of most epidemiological studies is analogous to market noise. The media latches on to them and often finds significance or relevance where there is little or none.

Last week I attended a lecture by a woman who has retired in her 60s and started studying gerontology. She is now in her 70s and is completing a doctorate. Her topic is the effect of the intelligence and mental stimulation on the Alzheimer's and other types of dementia. Among other things she mentioned that there is very little research in this area, because nobody is interested in funding it. The money goes into pharmaceutical solutions.

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with that topic as an area of study. Epidemiological studies find correlations whose causal links could be rigorously tested with the scientific method. When they're reported to the public at large they cause knee jerk reactions that may or may not be correct (further study is required). Ever hear someone comment along the lines of "I don't believe in modern medicine or science. Why is it that X is good this week and then it is bad the next?" Mass reporting of epidemiological studies are where many of these misconceptions arise from.

I wonder if the data is skewed by the fact that folks with dementia can't work.

Interesting question; we need to know more about the study and I expect later news reports will have it.

Also, the AP story will be continually updated as outside comment is available. Here's one in some editions of the story:

"Heather Snyder, director of medical and scientific operations for the Alzheimer's Association, said the study results don't mean everyone needs to delay retirement.

"It's more staying cognitively active, staying socially active, continue to be engaged in whatever it is that's enjoyable to you" that's important, she said.

"My parents are retired but they're busier than ever. They're taking classes at their local university, they're continuing to attend lectures and they're continuing to stay cognitively engaged and socially engaged in their lives."

"Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing." -William James

"For each additional year of work, the risk of getting dementia is reduced by 3.2%," Carole Dufoil, a scientist at INSERM, the French government's health research agency, told the Associated Press.

Silver lining...

Years of work/years retired per se is too flimsy as a causative explanation...I'd love to see some kind of "use it or lose it" lifestyle variable that could capture differences in folks that stay mentally sharp vs. become more idle and how that associates (or not) with dementia outcomes..

EmergDoc wrote:I wonder if the data is skewed by the fact that folks with dementia can't work.

Indeed, correlation does not necessarily mean causation. There was a study once that concluded that being left-handed shortened your life. This was done by looking at various current age groups. Older groups had lower percentages of left-handed people.

A further dive into the data discovered that there was time in the US educational system where many schools took it upon themselves to train lefties into righties. Sometimes that stuck and those people now consider themselves to be right-handed. So for the age groups that grew up in those times, there seem to be fewer left-handed people than there should.

"To rule out the possibility that mental decline may have led people to retire earlier, researchers did analyses that eliminated people who developed dementia within 5 years of retirement, and within 10 years of it." The results were the same.

Interesting study with a very large number of people followed (more details are available on the AP website).

The study definitely passes the "sniff test": I do see this generally in my patient population. But I don't think it means you have to necessarily remain employed; you have to really stay engaged. And don't withdraw socially!

The study you referenced looked at 18-60 year olds. There was no intent to look for dementia.

The study noted in the LA Times was run by the French government and looked at over 429,000 people over the span of several years (this is a HUGE study). The average age was 74 and the average length of time of retirement was 12 years; most appeared to be just be average working class people. "Nearly 3% had developed dementia but the risk of this was lower for each year of age at retirement. Someone who retired at 65 had about a 15% lower risk of developing dementia compared to someone retiring at 50 after other factors that affect those odds were taken into account." In order to rule out the possibility that mental decline may have led people to retire earlier, "researchers did analyses that eliminated people who developed dementia with 5 years of retirement, and within 10 years of it," and the trend was the same.

This was presented at the Alzheimer's Association International Conference in Boston and the study has been accepted for publication. I suspect that once the study design and results are available to critique, this will be a very big topic in the geriatric medical community.

I don't think you necessarily have to say that you must remain employed to help stave off dementia. But I wouldn't underestimate the importance of all of those social interactions which occur as part of daily routine in people who regularly work. My elderly patients (say, above 80) have taught me repeatedly that staying involved with something in their later years is vital.

I'm not sure this thread would be considered "actionable," but since there are an awful lot of seniors managing their own money I think the take-home message might be stay involved socially during retirement years as much and as long as you can. This will be pretty easy during the early go-go years, but will become more challenging during the slow-go years and later, the no-go years.

Just my opinion but this study appears to have been well-run with an unusually large number of patients.

a joke (not intended to offend anyone of course): Two golfers go for a round and need to hire a caddy to help them locate where their golf balls land. The manager at the golf course hears the golfers concerns and says "I've got just the caddy for you two." He calls over a caddy to introduce to the golfers and the caddy appears to be around 95 years old.

The golfers are very hesitant and say to the owner, "I don't know about this caddy you've chosen...he's so old." The owner says "I know what you're thinking but he's our best caddy. Don't worry, he has eyes like a hawk. He can always see where golf balls land." The golfers accept the caddy.

The two golfers go tee off and then look to the caddy and ask, "Well, did you see where our balls landed?" The caddy says "Yes." The golfers then ask, "Well, where are they?" The caddy says "I can't remember".

The goal of investing is not to beat the market, but rather to beat inflation.

The study you referenced looked at 18-60 year olds. There was no intent to look for dementia.

The study noted in the LA Times was run by the French government and looked at over 429,000 people over the span of several years (this is a HUGE study). The average age was 74 and the average length of time of retirement was 12 years; most appeared to be just be average working class people. "Nearly 3% had developed dementia but the risk of this was lower for each year of age at retirement. Someone who retired at 65 had about a 15% lower risk of developing dementia compared to someone retiring at 50 after other factors that affect those odds were taken into account." In order to rule out the possibility that mental decline may have led people to retire earlier, "researchers did analyses that eliminated people who developed dementia with 5 years of retirement, and within 10 years of it," and the trend was the same.

This was presented at the Alzheimer's Association International Conference in Boston and the study has been accepted for publication. I suspect that once the study design and results are available to critique, this will be a very big topic in the geriatric medical community.

I don't think you necessarily have to say that you must remain employed to help stave off dementia. But I wouldn't underestimate the importance of all of those social interactions which occur as part of daily routine in people who regularly work. My elderly patients (say, above 80) have taught me repeatedly that staying involved with something in their later years is vital.

I'm not sure this thread would be considered "actionable," but since there are an awful lot of seniors managing their own money I think the take-home message might be stay involved socially during retirement years as much and as long as you can. ...Artsdoctor

I think this part of my earlier post bears repeating here as it does refer to the overall "take-home message" you mention. The comment from the AA was in an update of the AP story:

"Heather Snyder, director of medical and scientific operations for the Alzheimer's Association, said the study results don't mean everyone needs to delay retirement.

"It's more staying cognitively active, staying socially active, continue to be engaged in whatever it is that's enjoyable to you" that's important, she said.

"My parents are retired but they're busier than ever. They're taking classes at their local university, they're continuing to attend lectures and they're continuing to stay cognitively engaged and socially engaged in their lives."

"Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing." -William James

VictoriaF wrote:Since many people remain mentally active in retirement, it must be the morning commute that is responsible for the decline in the Alzheimer's. {twisted smile}

Victoria

So that means telecommuting is the worst case scenario? Not retired AND prone to advancing dementia?

Telecommuting brings the worst of both worlds. The way to deal with it is to get into the car early in the morning and to plunge into the most notorious traffic jams before returning home and starting the telework. For the extra anti-Alzheimer's credit repeat it during the evening commute.

EmergDoc wrote:I wonder if the data is skewed by the fact that folks with dementia can't work.

Indeed, correlation does not necessarily mean causation. There was a study once that concluded that being left-handed shortened your life. This was done by looking at various current age groups. Older groups had lower percentages of left-handed people.

A further dive into the data discovered that there was time in the US educational system where many schools took it upon themselves to train lefties into righties. Sometimes that stuck and those people now consider themselves to be right-handed. So for the age groups that grew up in those times, there seem to be fewer left-handed people than there should.

Brian

Exactly. From reading the LA Times article, it could even just as easily be the case that people retired because of already decreasing mental capacity. I could just see the follow-up article: "People with Nascent Alzheimers are 3% More Likely to Retire than People Without". Of course, that would be like a "Dog bites man" story. "Man bites dog" certainly sells more papers.

I hate this kind of journalism.

That said, I have read studies that suggest that anything you do to keep your mind and body alive and active tends to ward off Alzheimer's. So that seems to be the key, to the extent that we can fight our own genetics. So working may help. But needless to say, not all jobs keep your mind or body active."

The study you referenced looked at 18-60 year olds. There was no intent to look for dementia.

The study noted in the LA Times was run by the French government and looked at over 429,000 people over the span of several years (this is a HUGE study). The average age was 74 and the average length of time of retirement was 12 years; most appeared to be just be average working class people. "Nearly 3% had developed dementia but the risk of this was lower for each year of age at retirement. Someone who retired at 65 had about a 15% lower risk of developing dementia compared to someone retiring at 50 after other factors that affect those odds were taken into account." In order to rule out the possibility that mental decline may have led people to retire earlier, "researchers did analyses that eliminated people who developed dementia with 5 years of retirement, and within 10 years of it," and the trend was the same.

This was presented at the Alzheimer's Association International Conference in Boston and the study has been accepted for publication. I suspect that once the study design and results are available to critique, this will be a very big topic in the geriatric medical community.

I don't think you necessarily have to say that you must remain employed to help stave off dementia. But I wouldn't underestimate the importance of all of those social interactions which occur as part of daily routine in people who regularly work. My elderly patients (say, above 80) have taught me repeatedly that staying involved with something in their later years is vital.

I'm not sure this thread would be considered "actionable," but since there are an awful lot of seniors managing their own money I think the take-home message might be stay involved socially during retirement years as much and as long as you can. This will be pretty easy during the early go-go years, but will become more challenging during the slow-go years and later, the no-go years.

Just my opinion but this study appears to have been well-run with an unusually large number of patients.

Artsdoctor

Bold added

I'd be somewhat surprised if a 15% drop in something that is nominally only 3% to begin with, in people who retired 15 years apart, is significant enough to care about. The relative drop is 1% a year, not the absolute drop. So from a nominal 3% rate of Alzheimer's, putting off retirement for a year gets me to 2.97% (difference is totally lost in the noise). If I put off retirement for 5 years I'm down to about 2.85, also likely a different lost in the measurement noise. If I put off retirement for the full 15 years (!) I am down to 2.55%.

Anyone going to put off retirement for 15 years (for many that means work until you die) to have less than half a percent absolute improvement in your odds of getting Alzheimer's?

We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

protagonist wrote:Exactly. From reading the LA Times article, it could even just as easily be the case that people retired because of already decreasing mental capacity. I could just see the follow-up article: "People with Nascent Alzheimers are 3% More Likely to Retire than People Without". Of course, that would be like a "Dog bites man" story. "Man bites dog" certainly sells more papers.

I hate this kind of journalism.

That said, I have read studies that suggest that anything you do to keep your mind and body alive and active tends to ward off Alzheimer's. So that seems to be the key, to the extent that we can fight our own genetics. So working may help. But needless to say, not all jobs keep your mind or body active.

"Man bites dog" keeps the man's body alive. It might help to ward off Alzheimer's.

Only read the LA Times article. Seems I have so many questions such as:1) Are early retirees in France more likely to be manual laborers?2) Is there any difference between the level of activity (a known factor) of early retirees versus later (disabled?)3) Is there a difference between reasons for retirement in France versus the US?

“. . . extraordinary wealth can be made by knowing the future" - Harry Dent

Where is the study of those who described their jobs as long hours of mind numbing work? Trading that for some risk of dementia was fine with me. Retirement since age 55 has been the best years of my life. Is there a study of the happiness of voluntarily retired people compared with similar aged employees? Consider the hazard of missing some joyous years by not retiring.

Describing the social interactions at work as being beneficial may or may not be true for everyone. Ulcers, high blood pressure, and other stress related symptoms are common in some jobs.

As usual, there is risk on both sides of any situation if you look deep enough.

There are also numerous studies that suggest that stress from work could lead to early mortality due to cardiovascular issues and suppressed immune system. I think the key to thriving mentally and physically is to remain physically and socially active regardless of your work status. Its also important to keep bad stress levels low while keeping good stress levels moderate.

Last edited by beanstock on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

I suppose if you go from having a 30 yr career in a field that you are passionate about and provides great meaning in your life to spending copious amounts of time at home watching TV and not doing much, your brain and body will start to rot quickly.

I'm sick and tired of Tips for Preventing Alzheimer's. No one knows what causes it or how to stop it. There is nothing you can do to prevent it. Nothing! But here are A FEW tips from the Alzheimer's Association on prevention. Really!

Work crossword puzzles. Number puzzles. Eat with your non-dominate hand. Rearrange your computer file system. (this might make you go crazy) Practice memorization. Don't watch TV in bed. Watch crime movies. Think about who, what, when, where and how'd they do it.Learn something new. Drink Tea. Drink Coffee. Don't Drink Coffee. Eat Fish. Avoid Fats. Protect your head, trauma to the head is bad for the head. Stay active. Be social. Have a routine sleep schedule. Take a nap. Include balance exercise in your schedule. Quit smoking (that's good for a lot of things plus it stinks)Don't be stressed....Quit work (My Tip)

Yet experts on aging said the studies also confirmed something they had suspected but had had difficulty proving: that dementia rates would fall and mental acuity improve as the population grew healthier and better educated. The incidence of dementia is lower among those better educated, as well as among those who control their blood pressure and cholesterol, possibly because some dementia is caused by ministrokes and other vascular damage. So as populations controlled cardiovascular risk factors better and had more years of schooling, it made sense that the risk of dementia might decrease. A half-dozen previous studies had hinted that the rate was falling, but they had flaws that led some to doubt the conclusions.

Looking at the rate of working over age 55, Americans work the longest compared to Europeans and Canadians. The French inch out the Italians for second place for early idleness. (Belgiums win the lassitude race!)

“. . . extraordinary wealth can be made by knowing the future" - Harry Dent

Looking at the rate of working over age 55, Americans work the longest compared to Europeans and Canadians. The French inch out the Italians for second place for early idleness. (Belgiums win the lassitude race!)

So from the original hypothesis we would expect those early-retiring, 35 hour/week working slackers (note: I have spent quite a bit of time in and love the Benelux countries and their culture )to have a much higher Alzheimer's rates than we hard working Yanks, yet that appears not to be the case - at least in older age groups ...http://www.alz.co.uk/adi/pdf/prevalence.pdf