I think God got it right with Jesus. Study the new testament and you will see for yourself.

The Quran evolved over many years. Many people had inputs. Muhammed said many things and there was a lot of confusion and conflicts as to this. There were over 50 versions at one time. There are still 4 today. Some were forced to be quiet and not contradict the "official" versions. There is no way that the Quran today was not modified. See the book The Quran Dilemma. It is well documented. Those of you who blindly say the Quran has never been modified are incorrect. And Muhammed did not write it - he said many things, but his actions do not portray a holy prophet. He contradicts Jesus. They cannot both be right. Jesus came first and makes much more sense. The Quran makes little sense and is very poorly written and disjointed. The only reason so many people believe it is because they are threatened with death if they do not, and are brainwashed as children. If they were freely allowed to study the bible, they would most likely be Christians. Christians do not threaten to kill you if you don't become a Christian, and do not say that God will send torture if you don't become one, yet say that God is loving. A loving God is loving to everyone and does not torture them, burn them, etc. God will give MUSLIMS a chance to know Jesus too. This is why I am here. I am a messenger too, just like you say Muhammed was. I tell you from God that you do not kill people because they do not believe your Quran. It is every way as wrong as you say the Bible is. Satan used the same tactics as Muslims with his Pharasees- legalists. Satan tested Jesus exactly as Muslims do. Wish Jesus could answer you but he answers the Pharisees. See that in the bible. The book of John is to help you believe in Jesus. Also Jesus fulfilled old testament prophesies. Jesus is even coded into the great pyramid of Giza, believe it or not. His lifespen, birthdate, and the Jews as well. Quite amazing actually.

Empiricist,
I welcome you to the forum. Seems you are new to the forum and new to Islam. Please read about Islam and the Quran before you comment on them.
Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

Oooooh I can answer this one. Apparently Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was in the grave or sepulchre for 3 days. So I would imagine the father and his spirit were looking after things without the son. Then I would guess that the 3 would 'meld' into 1 when Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) ascended.

I love Christianity...it's fun.

Salam,
I know those who preach Christianity here and else has made it look like a funny joke. We can laugh at them, but we do not make fun of anyone's religion!!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 02 February 2013 at 2:00pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

there is a prophecy from approximately 500 B.C. of the "Holy One" who would come. One who would lead the people away from the old way, and introduce a new way.

"The Holy one who will keep the world in the future will be like this: In the palm of his hands and in the flat of his feet will be the design of a disk, in his side will be a stab wound; and his forehead will have many marks like scars."

http://www.jubilee-resources.com/articles/buddha-prophesied-jesusthe Buddha stated in writings, that he, the Buddha, was not God, and you would know God had come among us when you saw a man walking on water.

Seek Truth

Edited by Caringheart - 03 February 2013 at 10:20am

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

I was more taken up in truing to unite the world against toe Masons. Now that
my message has reach home I have the time to engage on the level of Dawah.

This discussion has move from it original topic to weather if Jesus (S) is God
or not. however, in response to weather if all Christians are going to Hell or
not Allah (S) knows best. Although He made it clear that people who believe in
the one true God will go to Heaven and the other hand those who worship created
beings and associate partner with him would not enter Heaven we are not allowed
to point out who will enter hell or Heaven only Allah (S) knows. Our mission is
to conveyed the message to believe in the one true God and do not associate
partner with him, and if any one do they will not enter Heaven.

As for if Jesus (S) is God my first question and this is for TG, Can you
explain which part of Jesus (S) is the God part, and which is man part.

I need some clarification although it was proven that he prayed to some one
superior to him whom he call "his God".

Br. zainool

Br. zainool

Salaam!

Ok, No one
responde to me well then I will deal with the matter as a whole.

To explain who Jesus (S) is I
will begin with quoting from the Qur’an. We Muslims believed that all the
miracle he did was with the permission of Allah (S). It is mentioned in the Qur'an 3: 49-51 That Jesus (S)
said:“Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you
out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah's leave. I heal him who was
born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you
store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to
be believers.
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make
lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign
from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship
Him. That is a straight path.”

The N.T. also supported the
Qur’an in that statement of Jesus’ (S), he said:“I can of Myself do nothing.
As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30);“For I
have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command,
what I should say and what I should speak.”(John
12:49)

“When
Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some
say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremiah, or one
of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?”Matthew 16:13-15

Very important question, he is about to let
you know who he is.

V.16
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”Matt.16:16

Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed
are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in
heaven.V.18And I also say
to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the
gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.Matt.16:17

Note
very important: Jesus (S) made his claimed that he is the Messiah (foretold in the OT.), the Son of the living God; he
didn’t claimed he is God Almighty!

When Jesus (S) mentioned, “he is the Messiah, the Son of the living God”, that does not mean God has a biological son or he is a part of God as
Christians believe; they misunderstood Jesus (S) statement in context of his
message. The O.T. clearly stated Adam (S) the first Man the God of Abraham(s)
created is his son and anyone who led by the spirit of God is the sons of God;
and Jesus (S) falls in that category.

In the N.T. it mentioned:

“…Adam, which was the son of
God.” Luke3:38

For as many as are led by the Spirit of
God, they are the Sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

Jesus (S)
was led by the spirit of God:

“I saw the Spirit descending from heaven..., and abode upon him.”(John
1:32)

"...I cast out devils by the Spirit of God then the kingdom
of God is come unto you." (Matthew 12:28)

"I can of mine own self do nothing " (John 5:30)

JESUS (S) EXPLAINED WHAT HE MEANT BY SAYING HE IS THE MESSIAH SON OF THE
LIVING GOD.

Let us look at John10:23-32
; this explanation was given
by the late Ahmad Deedat (May Allah (S) grant him Jannah):

23And
Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24
Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make
us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my
Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep...

Jesus (S) rebuts the false charge of the Jews
that he was ambiguous in his claims to be the Messiah that they were waiting
for. He says that he did tell them clearly enough, yet they would not listen
to him. So he said:

27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And
I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any
man pluck them out of my hand.

29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

You
see the exactness of the ending of the last two verses?

Pluck them out of “my hand”

Pluck them out of “my Father's hand.”

He
is telling the Jews the "REAL UNITY" or "RELATIONSHIP"
between the Father and the son. The most crucial verse -

V.30 - I and my Father are one.

One
in what, DIVINITY? NO! ONE IN "PURPOSE" Once a believer has accepted
faith, then Jesus (S) sees to it he remain in faith and God Almighty also sees
to it that he remains in faith. This is the "PURPOSE" of the
"Father" and the "son" and the "Holy Ghost" and
of "every man and every woman of faith". John said that in John
17:21

ØThat
they "ALL" may be "ONE"; as thou, Father, art
in me, and I in thee, that also may be "ONE"
in "US"...I in them, and
"THOU (THE DICIPLES) in “ME(JESUS)”,
that "THEY (ALL) may be made "PERFECT in ONE"... John
17:21

The Jews also miss the point like all Christians.

31Then
the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 - Jesus
answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of
those works do ye stone me?

33-The
Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for
blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34-Jesus
answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35-If
he (God Almighty) called them (the Jews) gods, unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;

36-Say
ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou
blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?John10:23-36

Jesus said: "YOUR LAW... YE ARE
GODS." He is quoting from 82nd.
Psalm V.6“I have said, YE ARE GODS: and all of you
are children of the most High.”

Jesus is saying, "If He (God Almighty)
called them (holy men) God, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture
cannot be broken (in other words - YOU CAN'T CONTRADICT ME!)." He knows
his scripture; if good men, holy men, prophets of God are address as 'GODS'
in our Books of authority, with which you find no fault - then why do
you take exception to me?

So, as you can clearly Jesus (S) himself
explained his position as the son of God.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of
God, they are the Sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

JESUS (S) DECLARED WHERE WOULD BE THE
CHURCH.

Remember what Jesus (S) said in Matt.16:15-18?
He said: “Bless art thou, Simon Bar-jona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
heaven. And I say also unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Peter name was “Simon Bar-jona” and Jesus (S) change his name to
“Peter” (Little Rock). The Rock represent Peter’s message; and upon this
rock I will build my church. Peter was the only one knew who Jesus (S) was when
he said: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” he
understood that anyone led by the Spirit of God is the Son of God.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God.
(Romans.8:14)

For whosoever shall do the
will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister,
and mother. (Matthew 12:50)

PETER TESTIMONY WHEN ADDRESS THE
JEWS:

“Ye men of
Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God”
among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also
know” (Acts
2:22)

And Jesus (S) said:

"I tell you the truth, no
servant is greater than his master,
nor is a messenger greater than the
one who sent him."(John
13:16)

Jesus answered them and said,
“My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.” (John
7:16)

In Qur’an it stated in 74:31 “And
We have set non but angels as guardian of the fire…”

Jesus (S) in Islam, he said:

“Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you
out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah's leave. I heal him who was
born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you
store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to
be believers.
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make
lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign
from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship
Him. That is a straight path. Qur'an 3: 49-51

Jesus (S) conforms:

“And Jesus answered him, The first of all
the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The
Lord our God is one Lord:V.30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,
and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.”Mark
12:29-30

“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command,
what I should say and what I should speak.” (John
12:49)

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is
righteous, because I do not seek My own
will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30)

This chapter deals with the
claimed that the Christian’s commentators make…concern “the one like the son of
man”. They claimed that Revelation 1:13 refers to Jesus (S) which is not true;
it was an angel whom God Almighty sent to signified the “vision of prophesy” to
John who then put it in writings which supposed to be in his mother tongue
“Aramaic and Hebrew”; and may be later on re written in Greek which is what we
have as the so call original.

However, using the English which
was translated from the Greek… I will point out where they change it to
facilitate their doctrine ...they call it Christians’ theology. In others
words, they try to twist the message to suite their explanations…to make Jesus
(S) into a God. But a closer examination revealed the truth.

Now, I will begin quoting from
the book of revelation 1: 1 where we will see the book of revelation was a
vision of prophesy to John but it bear the name of Jesus (S), It mentioned:

“The Revelation
of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things
which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto
his servant John:”Rev.1:1

In the verse above it stated
that God Almighty gave Jesus (S) the revelation and that would be in Heaven.
However, there is no such record in Islam that Jesus (S) received revelation in
Heaven. It may be God Almighty wants us to acknowledge this vision as a
revelation sent to Jesus (S).

Anyway, Jesus (S) always
received revelation from God Almighty, it mentioned in John 12:49: “For I have not spoken on My own
authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should
say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)

This revelation is a word of prophesy of things to come to pass in the
future:

Blessed is he that readeth,
and they that hear the “words ofthis prophecy”, and keep those things
which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” (Rev.1:3).

God give unto him to show unto
his servants things which must shortly
come to pass…” (Rev.1:1)

A very important point to note: God “gives” unto him to “show” unto his servant’s things, which
must shortly come to pass, and what he
did? Verse 1 mentioned: “…and he
(Jesus) sent and signified it by his
ANGEL unto his servant John.”

Jesus (S) did not come but he “sent and signified it with an ANGEL unto John” and who John saw?

“And I turned to
see the voice that spake with me. And
being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven
candlesticks one like unto the Son of
man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with
a golden girdle.”

“One like
unto the Son of man” And not
the son of man! It was that “Angel” who
was sent to signify the vision unto John and not Jesus (S)! It was
conformed in Rev.22:8-9:

“And I John saw these things, and heard them.
And when I had heard and seen, I fell
down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.9 And he said unto me (John), see thou do it not: for “I am” thy fellow servant, and of thy brothering the prophet…“WORSHIP GOD”Rev.22:8-9:

Same thing mentioned in Rev.1:17:

“And when I saw him, I fell at
his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not;
I am the first and the last” Rev.1:17

Note: John did not worship the
angel there; he just fell on his feet as dead. Rev. 22 Verse 8-9 that I have
quoted above conforms that. Why he is the first and last, is because he was
there in the beginning:

11Behold, I come quickly: hold that
fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that
overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name…And unto the angel of the
church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”Rev.3:11-14

The “Amen” is the same angel that spoke to John and he has a God, he is
a “creation of God Almighty” and he
has a “beginning”. That angel was
here at the creation of Adam (S), to Lot (S) at Sodom and Gomorrah, when the
Messiah (S) was born, when Muhammad (S) received his Revelation (see Q.97:4)
and he is yet to come again at the end. He is, and was, and yet to come, he
said: “I am the beginning and the end”.
God Almighty doesn’t have a beginning; He God Almighty is absolute and eternal.
And according the self appointed disciple Paul; he said Jesus (S) is the “FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION:

“He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the “FIRST BORN OF ALL
CREATION”: (Colossians 1:15)

He is the “image” of the
invisible God and “not”
the invisible God! Adam (s) and Eve was “created”
in the “image” of the same invisible God also:

27”So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he
them.” (Genesis 1: 27)

Peter testimony when address the Jews:

“Ye men of Israel, hear these
words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles
and wonders and sign, which God did by
him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” (Acts
2:22)

And Jesus (S) said:

"I tell you the truth, no
servant is greater than his master,
nor is a messenger greater than the
one who sent him."(John
13:16)

Jesus answered them and said,
“My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.” (John
7:16) “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command,
what I should say and what I should speak.” (John
12:49)

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is
righteous, because I do not seek My own
will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30)

Again, one who is sent
with a message is a “messenger” and not God.

In the above I have
established the “one like the son of man” is an “angel” AND NOT JESUS (S).
Christians claimed that it was Jesus (S) because of Verse Rev.1:18which reads: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and,
behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of
death.”

“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for
evermore” That is a concoction! Angels don’t die. The truth
is, They want to make Jesus (S) God and they some how add it to the book when
they re write it into they so call original Greek where as it suppose to be in
Aramaic (the mother tongue of John). The above explanation clearly shows that
Jesus (S) didn’t come, but he “sent and signified it with an ANGEL unto John;” and that is whom John saw.

JESUS
(S) IS A FAITHFUL WITNESSBACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING:

“John to the seven churches which are in
Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from
“him” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V.5“And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…”Rev.1: 4-5

As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty:“Grace be unto you, and peace, from ‘him’
which is, and which was, and which is to come”;then the seven Spirits which is before the
throne: “and from the seven Spirits which are before
his throne”; and then Jesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: “and from
Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness”.If the seven Spirits of God
Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they
were before the throne worshiping God
Almighty. So the One, which is, which
was and which is to come is “GOD ALMIGHTY” because God Almighty existed as he
is, He was here when Adam was created on earth; and is yet to come in the end.
In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is the ALMIGHTY:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and
the ending, saith the Lord, which is,
and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY”.Rev.1:8

The seven spirits were before Almighty
God’s Throne and Jesus (S) was a “faithful witness”. In Revelation 4: 2-11 and
5:1-7 mentioned who was on the Throne:

And immediately I (John) was in the
spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev. 4:2

The one that sits on the throne is God!

And he that satwas to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone:
and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev.4:3

And
round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw
four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their
heads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4

And out of the throne preceded lightnings
and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning
before the throne, which are the
seven Spirits of God. Rev.4:5

The seven Spirit is before the throne and
not on the throne; they are not part of God Almighty.

And when those beasts give glory and
honour and thanks to him that sat on the
throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Rev.4:9

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory
and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure
they are and were created. Rev.4:11

THE
ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE:

Revelation 5

And I saw in the right hand of “him that
sat on the throne” a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven
seals. Rev.5:1

The One that sits on the
throne has a book, and what he did with it? Let’s find out.

And one of the elders
saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of
David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals
thereof.Rev.5:5

And I beheld, and, lo,
in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the
elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes,
which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

And he came and took the book out of the
right hand of himthat sat
upon the throne. Rev.5:7

You see that? The One that
sits on the throne has a book, and what happen with the book? The lamb took it.
So, who took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne? The Lamb! And who is sitting on the
throne? God Almighty!

Nothing new! It’s all in
Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent
and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev.1:1

“For I have not spoken on My own
authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and
what I should speak."(John 12:49)

And who was Jesus (S)?
Revelation 1:5 says:

“Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness!”

And who is God Almighty? He is the
“creator”:

“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things,
and for thy pleasure they are and were created.Rev.4:11

And when those beasts give glory and
honour and thanks to him that sat on the
throne, who liveth for ever and ever,” Rev.4:9

I submit that man cannot begin to comprehend God, that is why he created Jesus, so we could relate to God in human form. Man cannot comprehend that which he cannot see very well- we are trapped in a physical world. This is why the Jews and others worsipped idols. Jews wanted a king. Jews wanted God to come and save them, as a hero. But God did not do that. However some get a taste of God with a "near death experience". They report immense love, white light, etc. This is why Jesus was about love. Muhammed was a man for force, repression, worldly pleasures. Not a "final prophet"- this is impossible. Many have the gift of prophesy. I could say that I am the final prophet but that does not make it true. Any time somebody tells you to not verify what they say and just believe it, is suspect. THis is like a used car salesman. The Quran is no contest compared to the Bible. IMO the Quran is clearly a "made up" holy book, to create a religion to control the people. Sorry to offend Muslims but your arguments are feeble.

I just posted a vedio in the Forum Prophet-Muhammad 'The Strength of Beauty and the beauty of strength'. It is 31+minutes long. Please take a look and humor me.

Jazak Allahu khair.

A frog and a scorpion stood on a river bank and the scorpion said to the frog "put me on your back and carry me across to the other side of the river" the frog replied "no, you will only sting me when we are in the middle" in which the scorpion pleaded " I will not I promise".

So the frog put the scorpion on his back and started to cross the river, hwoever when they reached the middle of the river the scorpion stung the frog. The frog said "what have you done? Now we will both drown you f--l". The scorpion replied "I can't help it, it's in my nature".

I'm trying ringo, really trying hard to emulate the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) but I don't think I will even come close to within a mile of him.

The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) said that the greatest Jihad is the struggle within one self. Insha'Allah with prayer and dua'a I am hoping to get close to that.

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