At one time the wife and I were GOP precinct captains, election judges and poll watchers in COOK COUNTY, IL. I've seen corruption and rigged voting processes up close being perpetrated by the machine. It's gone national. 100% of the vote to Obama in Philly without even ONE vote for Romney??? Not even Saddam Hussein had such 'luck'. It's cognitive dissonance to assume that Romney lost due a few thousand legit votes.

Should an appeal to white middle class citizens only be made by citizens and the church, but not politicians?

I'm not talking about 'appeal'. Conservatism is a way of life, a way of thought and devotion. It is not the job of politicians to teach American culture, Conservatism and biblical principles to a people in order to 'appeal' to them. That's our job.

A people will vote their principles - whether that be their wallets, their identities or their faith. A moral and religious people should vote for those who carry those same principles in governing. If the people will not be governed by God, they will be ruled by the tyranny of men, plain and simple. If people are truly governed by God - then they will select those men to represent their interests.

In short, enough of this people are corrupt and wicked - and what we have for rulers is a reflection of those people. You will not win the wicked over to righteousness via a political campaign. That battle needs to be fought by Christians, the church and the community. That's where Conservatism should be rooted.

You don't approach these folks with promises of freebies, but you should approach them talking about crime, education, and economic opportunity, explaining how your administration will be better for them than the administration of your opponent.

That only resonates with a religious and moral people who are able to withstand the fiery darts of the media and the zeitgeist of political correctness. A dependent people who see government as Santa Claus or God - cannot be reached by political speeches and campaigns. You are dealing with a different animal altogether there.

Conservatism has to be like preaching the Gospel - we cannot leave it up to 'professionals' to teach a way of life and belief. That takes each one of us to do so. And we've let the enemy take the high ground as they control the education system, the media and the government. We've got to start over, almost as if we're preaching Christ to a pagan people who have never even heard His Name.

I'm not going to address your point about Hispanics. If we have to engage in identity politics, then we've already lost with no chance of ever winning people into embracing an American culture and Conservative ideology.

As to your comment about the church - and that no one loves Him like I do - scripture says we are to judge the fruits. Well, the culture in this nation is a living daily testament of the FAILURE of the Christian church in EVERY community and demographic to influence the culture. Sure there are stadiums packed with concert-like "revivals" - yet the culture continues to slide into a hedonism that would make Sodom and Gomorra blush. A testament to the failure of the church to uphold the foundational principles that make liberty and Conservatism itself a viable belief system.

You just watched us go up against the Left A team with our B team. Our B team barely bested despite this, you have now come to the conclusion that we can never win another game against their A team. Seriously, it's this simple.

Well that's where you and I differ. This is not just politics as usual. History teaches what happens when Marxist ideologues like the Obama regime achieve power. I do not see this as just another political game like the GOP-e does.

Where you and I differ is that I see America having been overthrown in a velvet coup by Marxists. When the machine runs the show - it doesn't matter what "A' team we bring. You don't get to play in Cook County unless you are part of the machine and approved by the Ruling Class party that runs the show, produces the candidates and counts the votes.

At one time the wife and I were GOP precinct captains, election judges and poll watchers in COOK COUNTY, IL. I've seen corruption and rigged voting processes up close being perpetrated by the machine. It's gone national. 100% of the vote to Obama in Philly without even ONE vote for Romney??? Not even Saddam Hussein had such 'luck'. It's cognitive dissonance to assume that Romney lost due a few thousand legit votes.

First of all, I think it would be a great idea for you to write down your observations from those days and place them where others could read them. I'd like to read them. It would be educational. The more techniques you've seen used or know about to carry out voter fraud, that you could include, the better.I am not operating under the assumption that no voter fraud took place. I've heard three different reports of what appears to be fraud. At the present time I'm merely in a holding pattern hoping to hear more.

Look, I appreciate your point of view. It hasn't been my premise that Romney lost in a totally legit election process. It has been my premise that he lost despite not being the best candidate, despite him not running the best campaign, and there possibly being considerable voter fraud. We play hard ball and any of these three factors change, and we've got a good chance of winning. Correct all three, and it's quite likely we will win.

Should an appeal to white middle class citizens only be made by citizens and the church, but not politicians?

I'm not talking about 'appeal'. Conservatism is a way of life, a way of thought and devotion. It is not the job of politicians to teach American culture, Conservatism and biblical principles to a people in order to 'appeal' to them. That's our job.

A people will vote their principles - whether that be their wallets, their identities or their faith. A moral and religious people should vote for those who carry those same principles in governing. If the people will not be governed by God, they will be ruled by the tyranny of men, plain and simple. If people are truly governed by God - then they will select those men to represent their interests.

In short, enough of this people are corrupt and wicked - and what we have for rulers is a reflection of those people. You will not win the wicked over to righteousness via a political campaign. That battle needs to be fought by Christians, the church and the community. That's where Conservatism should be rooted.

In concept I don't disagree with much of what you have said here. I agree that people should vote their principles and Christian values. This still leaves me with a quandary. Don't you recognize that there are people out there that don't spend nearly as much time with their nose to the political grind-stone as you and I do? I believe it is possible for people who aren't tuned in as much as we are, to miss some of the reasons why they should vote against a guy like Obama.

We're in tune with the abortion issue. Nobody has to explain it to us, and what the connection to Conservatism vs the Democrats is. It's been on our radar for decades, and we've seen what Obama and Romney have adopted as their policy regarding this issue. Okay, which one was better? Romney talked a good game, but I don't think many people were buying it. So what's the Christian take-away for people who haven't followed Obama or Romney very closely?

We talk about debt, taxes, and a number of issues. Our media is bad enough, but I'd venture to guess that Telemundo/Univision are not pushing our agenda. I'm not convinced Hispanic pastors are up to speed on issues like those we just faced.

If you show up a mile from where I live, I'm going to be a lot more interested in what you have to say. Even if you just show up in my region and sound like you're talking to me or my family, I'll probably try to find out what you said. You don't come closer than five states away, why should I listen to you at all? You don't address my people more than a couple of times during the campaign, you're dead to me.

You don't approach these folks with promises of freebies, but you should approach them talking about crime, education, and economic opportunity, explaining how your administration will be better for them than the administration of your opponent.

That only resonates with a religious and moral people who are able to withstand the fiery darts of the media and the zeitgeist of political correctness. A dependent people who see government as Santa Claus or God - cannot be reached by political speeches and campaigns. You are dealing with a different animal altogether there.

Well, if we were talking 98% of the Hispanic people, I'd agree with your premise. We aren't. If you wish to believe we are, that's okay. I'm here to provide an alternative view. I'm not here to convince you or else.There are a lot of hard working Hispanic people in our nation. We got 28% of the Hispanic vote. I'm trying to tell you we could have gotten much more. We didn't appeal to the Hispanic man to man, and we still got 28% of the Hispanic vote. I honestly believe that should tell you something. If we can get 28% without trying, shouldn't we be able to enhance that? To me, that seems clear.

Conservatism has to be like preaching the Gospel - we cannot leave it up to 'professionals' to teach a way of life and belief.

Why do you think we have political campaigns? Wouldn't you agree it's to attract people to our brand? To hear you talk here, one could be forgiven for thinking you think every person who goes to a campaign rally, is a die-hard supporter already. If that's the case, then we're spending a ton of money for no reason whatsoever. You really do need to think about what you're saying here. All political conversions take place one to one. The candidate shouldn't appeal to Hispanics, because someone else already should have.

Listen to this. We've got an audience out there. I'll liken it to Dodger stadium being full. As a man trying to get a belief system across, I'm interested in providing a clear message. Now I can take my boom box (figuratively) out there, or I can use the stadium P. A. system.

It's my take, that by limiting campaign messages to individuals, you are showing preference to the boom box. I prefer using the stadium P. A. I have a voice. Romney had a loud voice. If we truly want to move people, we have to use every tool in our box.

That takes each one of us to do so. And we've let the enemy take the high ground as they control the education system, the media and the government. We've got to start over, almost as if we're preaching Christ to a pagan people who have never even heard His Name.

We got 28% of the Hispanic vote. With about 32% of it we would have won this election. I tell you how to improve on those numbers, and you start referencing pagans and folks who have never heard of Christ. I know you're using it as a metaphore, but it seems to me it's a rather poor one. Many of these people are good Christians. Please understand that doesn't make them the consummate highly tuned in and informed political analyst. It's up to our candidate to connect with them somehow, and explain to them how Conservatism makes more sense if you're someone with good morals. You don't have to word it in exactly those terms, but you lay out your beliefs in a manner that allows them to come to the conclusion for themselves.

I'm not going to address your point about Hispanics. If we have to engage in identity politics, then we've already lost with no chance of ever winning people into embracing an American culture and Conservative ideology.So let me see, when our candidate talks to the Irish, the English, the French, the Germans, the Jewish, the Asians, and the blacks, at a rally, he's actually engaging in identity politics. LOL Guy, you don't talk to any of these groups any differently. Adding Hispanics into the mix, is not identity politics. It's merely being inclusive. It's being willing to talk to them too. And this year, we weren't.

If we're willing to go to towns in Iowa, Ohio, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, and other states, we should be willing to go to venues in east Los Angeles. Why are you making this so difficult? It's obvious. It's easy. It's effective.

As to your comment about the church - and that no one loves Him like I do - scripture says we are to judge the fruits. Well, the culture in this nation is a living daily testament of the FAILURE of the Christian church in EVERY community and demographic to influence the culture. Sure there are stadiums packed with concert-like "revivals" - yet the culture continues to slide into a hedonism that would make Sodom and Gomorra blush. A testament to the failure of the church to uphold the foundational principles that make liberty and Conservatism itself a viable belief system.

You have got to get off this religion kick. Churches are there to talk about Christ. They are not there to talk about Romney. I don't want this stuff taught from the pulpit. Some massive black churches are the havens of all manner of evil. They are owned by the Democrat party, lock stock and barrel. I'm not about to start supporting turning good Christian churches into a political party meeting hall. Teach people about Christ, and let the political parties teach them their beliefs. If Christ has been taught properly, the flock will know who to gather around to support.

You just watched us go up against the Left A team with our B team. Our B team barely bested despite this, you have now come to the conclusion that we can never win another game against their A team. Seriously, it's this simple.

Well that's where you and I differ. This is not just politics as usual. History teaches what happens when Marxist ideologues like the Obama regime achieve power. I do not see this as just another political game like the GOP-e does.

The GOPe only sees this as a way for them to hold power. They don't give a fig about Conservative ideology. We must, and we know that. It's up to us to select candidates who adhere to Conservative ideology. It's up to us to make sure they're well grounded enough to teach others. We can reinforce what they say, but they need to be heard saying it. They need to be heard being challenged on it, and explaining their beliefs in a manner where people listening can think, "I agree with him. He sees it like I do. I like this guy. He's right, and I trust him." Short of that, I can try to sell people all four years long, and never make the connection for our candidate. He has to do that.

Where you and I differ is that I see America having been overthrown in a velvet coup by Marxists.

Okay, but your vision includes surrender in it. Mine does not. We're at war. We lost a skirmish. We didn't lose the war. Of course that's unless we refuse to fight. And refusing to show up in minority areas and ask them to support us is in effect surrender. I'm not surrendering one square inch of this nation. I may have to drag some areas along kicking and screaming, but I'm going to contest every place I can, and take enough areas that those that don't go with me won't matter.

There is no area in our nation, I wouldn't go to talk to a small group of people one on one. I might not win them over, but before I left they would understand that actually care about their success.

When the machine runs the show - it doesn't matter what "A' team we bring. You don't get to play in Cook County unless you are part of the machine and approved by the Ruling Class party that runs the show, produces the candidates and counts the votes.

How long do you think the Democrat party would allow us to run an area like that? Any idea? I think you know.

So why do we allow it? Why don't we file suits, bring in the feds, and force fair elections. If it takes the national guard, then that's what we should fight for.

You mentioned the skewed school structures. I agree that they are skewed. I would address the inequity of socialism in our schools. During my first term I would have every school in the nation balanced politcally, or I would withhold federal dollars. If teachers were indoctrinating, I'd do whatever I had to do to put an end to it. If I couldn't put an end to it, I'd at least force school districts to propagandize their kids on their own dime. This would leave more money for wholesome schools.

PBS would be gone. NPR would be gone. The EPA would be gone. The Department of Education would be gone.I would give the U. N. three months to close every field office in the United States. If there were still occupying them three months and one day later, I'd have their buildings bull-dozed on the first Sunday after.

There's no reason why we have to play softball with the Left.

And by the way, I'd review the situation and find any way possible to end as many Leftist groups as I could including the ACLU. Conservancies wouldn't get one more dime from the federal government, and I would seek to return all lands purchased with federal dollars under Conservancies, to be returned to the federal government, and in some instances individual states.

143
posted on 11/16/2012 1:30:23 AM PST
by DoughtyOne
(Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and 48 million Americans still didn't have power.)

First of all, I think it would be a great idea for you to write down your observations from those days and place them where others could read them.

Never thought about that before. Perhaps. Suffice it to say that what you read about what happened in Philly and Cleveland with 100% of the vote going to Obama; GOP poll watchers being thrown out of or not being permitted inside polling places during the election; in Florida with the waiting for Republican counties to report their tallies first before Democrat urban strongholds reported their results that have the 'required amount' of votes for a 'win', was SOP in Cook County.

We play hard ball and any of these three factors change, and we've got a good chance of winning. Correct all three, and it's quite likely we will win.

I'm truly fearing that even among ardent Conservatives like yourself, few understand what time it is. We saw our last relatively honest national elections in 2008. The machine is national now. Marxists run the show. History teaches Marxists never lose elections or leave office outside the threat or use of force. That's history speaking, not me speculating. Are we truly so blind to insist such evil cannot happen here? I submit it already has.

Don't you recognize that there are people out there that don't spend nearly as much time with their nose to the political grind-stone as you and I do? I believe it is possible for people who aren't tuned in as much as we are, to miss some of the reasons why they should vote against a guy like Obama.

Here again is where we differ.

First, scripture states that God says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6) and as Acts 17 says - a righteous people would be like Bereans - proving all things, holding fast to that which is good (I Thess. 5:21). A people ignorant of their history, heritage and faith - who hang on the words of men - are easily deceived.

It's not the job of politicians to educate the people about what principles they should believe and live by. A politician appeals to those principles and values a people already have that will motivate them to vote for him. Those are principles learned in family, church and community. Reagan did not 'teach' the people the need to adopt Conservatism, Reagan appealed to the Conservatism the people already had.

We are no longer even those people of two plus decades ago. Only a moral people are capable of freedom and liberty. As people become more selfish,corrupt and vicious - the greater the god they will allow government to become to maintain order and redistribute wealth.

We didn't appeal to the Hispanic man to man, and we still got 28% of the Hispanic vote.

Look, it's common knowledge that a significant bulk of hispanics enclave among us - without adopting American culture for their own. The Left panders to them and instead of demanding they learn English and adopt American cultural values - we allow them to enclave without any push for them to become American. Why do so many illegals sneak in here? Free stuff. What are they motivated by? Free stuff. What do they demand? Free stuff. Who get's their votes? The guy who promises them free stuff.

The values of a Conservative have to be taught long, long before election season begins. That we wait for a politician to espouse and teach those values is how and why the Marxist Left have been able to achieve power.

Wouldn't you agree it's to attract people to our brand?....It's my take, that by limiting campaign messages to individuals, you are showing preference to the boom box. I prefer using the stadium P. A. I have a voice. Romney had a loud voice. If we truly want to move people, we have to use every tool in our box.

Look, let me put it this way. I've been to massive Promise Keeper-type /crusades' and 'revivals' over the last two decades. Stadiums filled with tens of thousands of people who are 'preached to' in booming loud PA and multi-media events to appeal to their faith. And you know what? If the messages preached were LIVED BY instead of the majority of people simply going for an 'emotional event' - we would not have lost the culture war in this country.

Just because some guy can fill a stadium and rev them up into an emotional motivation for their vote - does not translate into a way of life being lived so that liberty and freedom and Constitutional law are upheld and adhered to by the people. If that were so - twenty years of crusades and revivals in packed stadiums would not have lost a culture to hedonists, homosexuals and a zeitgeist of selfish indulgence and entitlement.

Conservatism is like a religion - it's an ideology that motivates the way we live our lives. That is something that has to be taught from family, church and community. If Americans choose leaders that reflect their values - then the fruits speak to the fact we are no longer a moral people and Conservatism is not being promoted, taught or preached in daily life.

Adding Hispanics into the mix, is not identity politics. It's merely being inclusive. It's being willing to talk to them too.

If we talk to people as Americans, and not hyphenated - then we're automatically being 'inclusive'. If we have to pander to factions of people based on race and not a common American heritage and community - we're engaging in identity politics. Period.

You have got to get off this religion kick. Churches are there to talk about Christ. They are not there to talk about Romney.

That sentiment explains why Conservatism and Christianity are losing power and influence among the people. Life in this country at one time was by and large, through the prism of faith and belief. Compartmentalized religion or as I call it 'keeping God in His box' is one of the root reasons we lost the culture and the nation.

Our Founders didn't get 'off their religion kick'. Most of what they did was through the prism of their religion and faith. Their own writings bear that out.

But you are making my point about the fact that a politician cannot teach Conservatism, and if religion is to be compartmentalized and accepted that God should stay in His box in the church - it is no wonder Conservatism is losing in the minds of Americans.

Then again, the Christian church is hemorrhaging and what remains of much of mainstream churchianity is lukewarm at best.

So why do we allow it? Why don't we file suits, bring in the feds, and force fair elections. If it takes the national guard, then that's what we should fight for.

Corruption is institutionalized. The government has become corrupt itself. The courts? Same thing - corrupt. When society itself becomes corrupt and vicious - the government becomes a harsh master to keep order and itself in power. Can Satan cast out Satan? Jesus asked. Once corruption is the norm - there is no way to remove it except by force or to escape it altogether.

Which brings us back to the topic of discussion - secession. If you want to play hardball with the Left - it's going to come to civil conflict. You talked about using the national guard to force the imposition of Justice. How is that any different than all the fear we're reading about separating and leaving the Marxist Socialists to themselves?

There are only two options that exist; enduring and submitting to tyranny - or defiance and separation. There will be no middle ground in the very near future.

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