/ North West Scotland Grades

This list is objectively graded for balanced climbers with a breadth of experience cragging around Scotland, England and Wales and does not take into account the mis-guided machinations of overly-familiar locals, Aberdonians, headpointers / side-runner users, the 90% of Scots who can't jam, anyone with an egotistical point to prove about grades, anyone who thinks that gritstone is the default benchmark of sensible grading, boulderers, anyone who is over six foot and under 11 stone, or any other such anomolous weirdos.

While I don't doubt you are being entirely honest about how these routes felt to you, some of your assesments will be controversial (and perhaps just a little provocative?)

Your list does, however, dispel the myth that NW grades are generally universally soft (the "stiff" list reminds me of several proper battles!); I think it is just that the grades are perhaps a little more inconsistent than in some other more frequented areas. People either choose to recall the soft ones out of a sort of inverted bullshit, or else just conveniently avoid the stiff ones! (Anyone for The Swirl?)

Your correct dismissal of the validity of the views of "anyone who thinks that gritstone is the default benchmark of sensible grading" is particularly pertinent here; anyone who's home ground is "Reiff by the Cement Works" (aka Stanage) is bound to have a massively warped sense of grading at the real Reiff, let alone Ardmair (I met one such person there a couple of weeks ago who struggled with the start of Primitive Dance but afterwards declared the route HVS!)

> This list does not take into account the mis-guided machinations of anyone with an egotistical point to prove about grades, or any other such anomolous weirdos.
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> It is guaranteed to be 100% scientifically and factually accurate.

Dear lord, is that how I come across? I am a very nice person in real life. We should meet ;)

I like your list and will definitely try anything at my level.
Cheers for the effort.

Are you working on the basis of SMC grades or Gary's grades? (from your comments on the Golden Wall routes, I suspect the Latter)

ps If you think Moronic Inferno is harder than Rite of Spring or Crann Tara, then you need to get to Ratho more often (ditto if you think Monkey Man is stiff!). I do agree with you that Split Persoinality is just worth E4 though (I once did it while a bit unfit and had a nightmare).

Add Gussetbuster (E1) at Seal Song to the stiff list.

I don't think Unleash The Beast is in any way soft (and I did it when fit and going well by my standards).

> Executioner - benchmark E2. sustained, poor holds, good gear but not the easiest to place.

Definitely E2 and sustained. But how can continuously chunky layaways and soild jams be described as poor holds? Obvious, easy to place gear too. The weight of the grade is almost entirely in the pump; it is a path if you are fit, a nightmare if not.

An inspiring ticklist for my next trip to that area (obviously focussing on the “soft” category) and I’ve only done a handful of them, but I’ll give you my comments using similarly objective criteria, only a bit more objective because in my humble experience I’m more objective than anyone else I know (ignoring the fact that some of them were done donkey’s years ago).

Northumberland Wall, Diabeg – down from “Stiff” to “Solid” – it’s a tough E2 but not E3 (unless the SMC decide to upgrade it to E3 in their next guide, in which case I will gleefully add one to my very small number of E3 ticks and re-consider my position).

Red John Of The Battles – Steady or soft (but great) – I thought you were discounting the views of the 90% of Scots who can't jam? That cliché is true by the way – I remember when I moved up north being told by deep-fried-pizza-eating Glaswegian hard men (well, OK some random punters in the GUM Club) that Promontory Direct at Auchenstarry was desperate for the grade – give me strength…

Dire Straights, Diabeg – Up to Spot-on, or even Solid. I haven’t actually completed it so not sure, having lowered off ignominy when too scared, but that in no way compromises my objectivity.

Right, I’ve just wasted 15 minutes of my life. One of the problems with people’s perception of grading in the North West is that they base there opinions on a relatively small sample of popular well travelled routes. Now, having lived in the area for some time and being fairly keen I’ve done more than most. I’ve done all the extremes at Inverpollaidh, of the 500 routes at Reiff, I’ve done about 75%, and at Ardmair I’ve done about 80 routes (Oh, look at me…). Just looking at the grades in the latest (9 years old) SMC guidebook, I find I have:

In reply to Fiend: thanks for all that, worth sending your entire list to andy nisbet, he really does care about getting things right. HOw is the log book coverage for scotland is it a realistic resource for updating guidebooks?

In reply to andyinglis: well is andy doesn't think it a worthwhile list them send it into the SMC journal. to be honest i don't know how recently andy has been onsigting e2 and 3. I guess it's awkward cause he knows most of the FA teams but he usually seems keen about getting people on these routes.

The only slight issue I have, on some of the routes I've done, is the colossal wrongness of your opinion ;) (I suspect you might have been expecting me to say something along those lines.)

Here's where I think you might be massively, disastrously wrong:

Northumberland Wall Top end of E2?! No, just E2. Surely you've done loads of top end E2s around the country, and found NW is rather easier? What about hard E2s on Cornish Granite (Bow Wall)? Or in the Lakes E(quus)?

Moronic Inferno, Reiff You're making a clever play on the route name by being moronic, I take it. Not using grit as a benchmark (which would make it HVS like Chequers), it's E1.

Monkey Man. Proper E3 I thought, but not high in the grade. A hard E3 will kick my ass. This did not, I upped and downed the start a bit and then romped up on massive jugs at 5a/b. Pumpy though.

Trouble is, if you calibrate these as top-end, the whole list goes a bit flacid.

Brave Heart A 5b move just above good gear. Sounds like a steady E1 to me.

Wanderings Accuse me of whatever you like, but this felt like HVS to me. No 5b moves, but perhaps a bit bold - E1 5a?

Elastic Collision This is a grade easier that Seal Song, so E2 5b.

The Pillar I don't understand, I never will.

The Executioner Probably E1 - yes, and not a hard one (again forgetting the grit benchmark that would make it HVS). If a route is safe as houses and sustained 5b, surely the only way to make it E2 is for it to be reasonably long? This is a tiny weeny little pumpy 5b crack route, not some massive 40m pitch of sustained 5b crack climbing which would be E2.

I hope you enjoyed my explanation of your errors. Happy to explain further if necessary.

> Moronic Inferno, Reiff You're making a clever play on the route name by being moronic, I take it. Not using grit as a benchmark (which would make it HVS like Chequers), it's E1.
>
> Monkey Man. Proper E3 I thought, but not high in the grade. A hard E3 will kick my ass. This did not, I upped and downed the start a bit and then romped up on massive jugs at 5a/b. Pumpy though.

> The Executioner Probably E1 - yes, and not a hard one (again forgetting the grit benchmark that would make it HVS). If a route is safe as houses and sustained 5b, surely the only way to make it E2 is for it to be reasonably long? This is a tiny weeny little pumpy 5b crack route, not some massive 40m pitch of sustained 5b crack climbing which would be E2.

I assume that (like me) you found these routes easy for the grade because you have good stamina. I have seen people generally solid at E2, E3, and E2 have really hard times on Moronic Inferno, Monkey Man and The Executioner respectively. Just because they play to your particular strengths does not mean they are overgraded.

If you do not have good stamina, you are just plain wrong/deluded.

You are also plain wrong about Northumberland wall.

And what don't you get about The Pillar, that it's inferior to Northumberland wall or that it's E2? Or both?

> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
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> I assume that (like me) you found these routes easy for the grade because you have good stamina. I have seen people generally solid at E2, E3, and E2 have really hard times on Moronic Inferno, Monkey Man and The Executioner respectively. Just because they play to your particular strengths does not mean they are overgraded.
>

I have reasonable stamina, but Moronically Graded Crack and the Executioner don't play to my strengths particularly as I'm not good at cracks (but by NW grades apparently I'm amazing at them??!). Surely if you don't have the stamina to climb a 10m 5b crack, then you're not an E2 climber?

Monkey Man is the correct grade, it's just not at the top end, it's in the middle.

> You are also plain wrong about Northumberland wall.

Well no. Would you like me to write a list of all the thousands of E2s that are clearly harder to show beyond doubt that it is not at the top of the grade?

> And what don't you get about The Pillar, that it's inferior to Northumberland wall or that it's E2? Or both?

If a route is not at all pumpy and so requires no stamina, soft 5b at the top but loads of easier climbing at the start, a bit bold but not dangerous, then I don't understand how that makes an E2, since any E1 climber could, and will succeed. It's quite long - yeah, and? As for quality, just about everything at Diabaig is simply fantastic - all different shades of *** (**** does not exist).

> I have reasonable stamina, but Moronically Graded Crack and the Executioner don't play to my strengths particularly as I'm not good at cracks.

But they're not exactly crack climbs are they?

> (but by NW grades apparently I'm amazing at them

So I take it you cruised the likes of Seal Song and Atlantic Crack?

> Monkey Man is the correct grade, it's just not at the top end, it's in the middle.

Fair enough.

> Well no. Would you like me to write a list of all the thousands of E2s that are clearly harder (than Northumberland wall) to show beyond doubt that it is not at the top of the grade?

Don't bother, because you would not, because you would be wrong.

> If a route is not at all pumpy and so requires no stamina, soft 5b at the top but loads of easier climbing at the start, a bit bold but not dangerous, then I don't understand how that makes an E2, since any E1 climber could, and will succeed.

> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
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> Well, it's at least as hard as Split Personality and The Screamer, perhaps the most popular E4's at Reiff (and don't bother being WRONG again by telling me they are E3)

I've been up the top of Reiff twice and that whole bay with The Screamer and Wall of Silence etc was piss-wet both times. It hadn't rained either time, so I'm loathe to walk up again to find it the same.

I would love to try The Screamer and Wall of Silence though.

(I seconded Split Personality and thought probably E3, but I can't really know how WRONG you are since I didn't lead it.)

> (In reply to Robert Durran)
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> I've been up the top of Reiff twice and that whole bay with The Screamer and Wall of Silence etc was piss-wet both times. It hadn't rained either time, so I'm loathe to walk up again to find it the same.
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> I would love to try The Screamer and Wall of Silence though.

You should certainly make the effort to go and do them - it's the best bit of Reiff! And it would be amusing to hear you be completely WRONG (like many others) about the grade of Wall of Silence.

> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
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> Ah but you're from the Peak! You're bound to find everything easy because most grit is undergraded.

I agree with Fiend's initial premise that grit is not a sensible benchmark, because it's very quirkily graded. There are loads of soft-touches on Peak grit, but it often seems that a crack is always graded HVS with no concern for the difficulty of climbing it*.

My comments ignore grit grades and make comparisons to other UK areas, especially Cornish Granite and the Lakes. The point is that the top end of E2 is really hard (for me) and I fail on top end E3 in any area except NW Scotland. Many routes on the list are the correct grade (e.g. Northumberland Wall, Monkey Man) but they're not at the top. NW is about the same as Left Wall - not at the top of the grade like Bow Wall. Monkey Man is not a hard E3, it's middle or even soft. Hard E3 is really really hard, it's not climbing a load of jugs with good gear.

*Pinch of salt required, but you know what I mean. Blue Lights Crack is graded the same as Legacy, for example - absurd.

As a matter of interest, which "top end" E3's have you done in Nw Scotland? You said you struggled to second Seal Song...... I'd have given you Monkey Man, but you WRONGLY don't consider it top end.

> Northumberland Wall is about the same as Left Wall - not at the top of the grade.

Ah, so that's where you're going WRONG. Left Wall should never have been downgraded from E3. I am RIGHT about this. It is a non-negotiable fact. Left Wall was always the definition of bottom end E3 and most grading confusion in the UK can be traced back to its now WRONG grading.

> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
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> As a matter of interest, which "top end" E3's have you done in Nw Scotland? You said you struggled to second Seal Song...... I'd have given you Monkey Man, but you WRONGLY don't consider it top end.

The comment was based on comparing Monkey Man, Seal Song (I got pumped but had no probs seconding), Split Personality (just one hard move IIRC) to routes like Sunlover, Zeppelin, The Sun (was E2!), Darius (E2!). They're just not in the same league.

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> Ah, so that's where you're going WRONG. Left Wall should never have been downgraded from E3. I am RIGHT about this. It is a non-negotiable fact. Left Wall was always the definition of bottom end E3 and most grading confusion in the UK can be traced back to its now WRONG grading.

If Left Wall was E3, then that would push up the harder routes like Darius and The Sun to E4! And yet I can do those, but I can't do the E4s I've tried. This all smells of big stinky swinging bollox to me.

> (In reply to Robert Durran)
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> The comment was based on comparing Monkey Man, Seal Song (I got pumped but had no probs seconding), Split Personality (just one hard move IIRC) to routes like Sunlover, Zeppelin, The Sun (was E2!), Darius (E2!). They're just not in the same league.

> (In reply to Robert Durran)
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> The comment was based on comparing Monkey Man, Seal Song (I got pumped but had no probs seconding), Split Personality (just one hard move IIRC) to routes like Sunlover, Zeppelin, The Sun (was E2!), Darius (E2!). They're just not in the same league.

If The Sun E3, its very bottom end, probably even bottomer than Left Wall. I wouldn't argue with E2.

Anyway, you havn't told me what top end E3's you've actually LED (and therefore are in a poiition to comment on) in th NW!

> If Left Wall was E3, then that would push up the harder routes like Darius and The Sun to E4!

WRONG (The hardest of the three is Left Wall).

> And yet I can do those.

So that makes you a solid top end E2/bottom end E3 climber! (Unless you can tell you've done stuff like The Swirl.....

> (In reply to Robert Durran)
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> The comment was based on comparing Monkey Man, Seal Song (I got pumped but had no probs seconding), Split Personality (just one hard move IIRC) to routes like Sunlover, Zeppelin, The Sun (was E2!), Darius (E2!). They're just not in the same league.

If The Sun is E3, its very bottom end, probably even bottomer than Left Wall. I wouldn't argue with E2.

Anyway, you havn't told me what top end E3's you've actually LED (and therefore are in a poiition to comment on) in the NW!

> If Left Wall was E3, then that would push up the harder routes like Darius and The Sun to E4!

WRONG (The hardest of the three is Left Wall).

> And yet I can do those.

So that makes you a solid top end E2/bottom end E3 climber! (Unless you can tell you've done stuff like The Swirl.....

> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
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> If The Sun E3, its very bottom end, probably even bottomer than Left Wall. I wouldn't argue with E2.
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> Anyway, you havn't told me what top end E3's you've actually LED (and therefore are in a poiition to comment on) in th NW!

I haven't led any top-end E3s in the NW. I've led a bunch of E3s that are actually E1/2, and a low-middle E3 in the shape of Monkey Man. I would love to try The Swirl which I've heard actually is hard E3, but they said that about Monkey Man too...

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> WRONG (The hardest of the three is Left Wall).

Well if you have a personal competition with Fiend as to who can be the wrongest, that's fine, but please don't involve me.

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> So that makes you a solid top end E2/bottom end E3 climber! (Unless you can tell you've done stuff like The Swirl.....

Exactly right, well done. I can do the odd top-end E3 if it suits my style, like the Archangel.

I suspect you're a better climber than you say you are. Try some Reiff E4s and see how you get on - Headlong, Spaced out Rockers, The Screamer etc (only seconded the former, not been on the others, but know they have generally good gear).

> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
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> Try some Reiff E4s and see how you get on - Headlong, Spaced out Rockers, The Screamer etc (only seconded the former, not been on the others, but know they have generally good gear).

I backed off the pitch before the break is gained on Spaced Out Rockers (I'm told this is the E4 bit) because I found it too bold and scary (though it was a bit greasy) and I was going well by my standards (E5 at Ardmair the day before). I also failed on Headlong (crap aren't I?) in greasy conditions having made several committing moves and lacking the stomach for more (running out of cams). I don't think either is soft!
The brilliant Screamer, on the other hand, is relatively amenable/soft at E4. Having said that I wouldn't fancy testing the gear which protects the moves to the good horizontal slot.

> (In reply to Robert Durran)
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> I'd done the hard bit, but didn't know it at the time that it was the hard bit. I thought there might have been more hard bits to come after the last hard bit.

You should have realised that had there been any more hard bits to come after the hard bit then it would have been given E4 but it isn't and so that there were no more hard bits that there was no need to downclimb the hard bit.

Hi Andy, I think The Con-Con's wandered between grades depending on the book - Gary Latter's book at least gives it E1. Got to admit it was a very long time ago (like all of my Diabaig ticks) - my comments on the Gairloch routes are more recent and to be taken with a slightly smaller pinch of salt. Though I do remember that Northumberland Wall didn't give me the frighteners at a time when I was leading no more than E2 and so (in keeping with the spirit of this thread) I'm reasonably confident that any suggestion of E3 is WRONG. In fact, as I recall it wasn't the hardest E2 of the trip - that prize went to The Pincer on Garbh Bheinn.

> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
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> You should have realised that had there been any more hard bits to come after the hard bit then it would have been given E4 but it isn't and so that there were no more hard bits that there was no need to downclimb the hard bit.

Ill know for next time that if there aren't any more hard bits after the initial hard bit, then i don't need to remove my jumper.

Keep up the good work Matt and the button pressing ;-) Wish I had the time to do a similar NW scotland list at sub-HVS (it would be wrong as well of course, as I'm a peak climber, never-mind that I've also climbed pretty much everwhere major in the UK).

> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
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> I backed off the pitch before the break is gained on Spaced Out Rockers (I'm told this is the E4 bit) because I found it too bold and scary (though it was a bit greasy) and I was going well by my standards (E5 at Ardmair the day before).

I also failed on Headlong (crap aren't I?) in greasy conditions having made several committing moves and lacking the stomach for more (running out of cams). I don't think either is soft!

It's an outstanding pitch. Yes there is some committing climbing on the initial wall though sure you'd find it fine in better conditions! Felt like two E3s on top of each other - a stiff burly one followed by a nice exposed steady one.

> The brilliant Screamer, on the other hand, is relatively amenable/soft at E4. Having said that I wouldn't fancy testing the gear which protects the moves to the good horizontal slot.

> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> It's an outstanding pitch [Hrtadlong] Yes there is some committing climbing on the initial wall though sure you'd find it fine in better conditions! Felt like two E3s on top of each other - a stiff burly one followed by a nice exposed steady one.

I used up all my mid size cams on the greasy, burly lower bit and then had nothing for a key placement higher up, so downclimbed to good gear and lowered off. Must go back!

> I've been told The Gift is easier technically but more bold?

Just different and thuggier (though I climbed the lower section on the left - definitely committing. I think you can go right (more technical?))

> (In reply to Rick Sewards)
> In fact, as I recall it wasn't the hardest E2 of the trip - that prize went to The Pincer on Garbh Bheinn.
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> A Dougie Dinwoodie route, he said it was wrong when it was upgraded from HVS.

In reply to Colin Moody:
I don't recall much. It was 8 years ago and I too was seconding. My leader was going well at the time and did not breeze up it as usual. I seem to remember something at 1/3 height that looked and felt thin with not much obvious gear. I remember however a general feeling of it being hard!
I really need to go back to that crag.

In reply to Rick Sewards:
I did White Hope (E4) on Garbh Bheinn and found it hard and bold. I thought it ought to be E5 but perhaps I got lost and climbed the wrong line or missed some good placements?

Right, this was all a very long time ago (14 years to be precise), but my memory of The Pincer was not of any one hard move (it was graded E2 5b in guidebook I was using and I didn't disagree with that) but just of continuously hard (or at least, not easy!) climbing with continuously uninspiring gear (small wires in cracks behind expando-flakes, if I remember rightly). I also seem to remember that there was a bulge which looked intimidating (maybe about 2/3 of the way up), but here the gear got better and after that I think it was easier. One thing that might have changed matters is that I've noticed that this photo http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=148771 and also Scottish Rock Climbs clearly show (and describe) it starting in Chela and moving right to the arête - I'm pretty sure I started at the lowest point on that picture and stayed on the RH side of the arête all the way (which is what was suggested in my old (1992) Glen Coe guide I was using at the time). Anybody know what the original line was? I remember it felt hard and a bit scary right from the start.

This is all very geeky and somewhat off-topic, being not quite in the NW (though the right side of the Great Glen!) and more importantly out of place on Fiend's list on account of being on top of a bloody big hill!

Applying your sort of logic. It can't be 5c, because I'd have had to try really hard if it was. And HVS 5c is one of those shit grades that you normally only get on grit, or other places where they pretend that anything that happens in the first 5m doesn't count towards the adjectival grade.

We did it 25 years ago and also started direct the way it was described in the guide and shown in the diagram. I have no idea why they got it wrong in later guides.
Looks (in the photo) like there is a crack starting from the left so maybe someone went that way to get gear and changed the description.
There is a photo of someone starting it direct in Gary Latter's guide.