I'm actually expecting this to be like Tat's other stuff, brought up now, forgotten for a couple weeks, the brought back as unexpectedly as a ninja attack from a manhole._________________The Angry Asshat.

Yes Slick, your senses are telling you to create a Man Only Space, that way, the wymynfolk(sp?) will feel compelled to come to your territory.

wait that's kind of clever. Wonder if that would work.

I don't see why not, after all when women want a womon only space, it's often claimed to be a safety/privacy thing, but if men want a man only space, the feminists see it as a patriarchal conspiracy against women, so they will surely invade out of sheer principle.

Well, think of the women-only buses in India. Groping on buses was and is very widespread, and women were afraid of being on buses. So some buses were designated as women-only. There are many cases of women-only spaces being created as a safe space for women because of the fear that men will harm them in some way. On the other hand, can you really think of a man-only space created in order to protect men from violence from women, or from the threat of potential violence?

Um, yes? Like, say, a shelter for men that are victims of domestic abuse?

Of which there is currently a pitifully small number?

EDIT: Small number of shelters, not small number of abuse victims. There's probably a good bit of un/underreported male domestic abuse victims, simply due to how seriously our society treats that issue.
(read: Not very. =( )
(No, this is not the fault of Feminism, before anyone even attempts to accuse me of thinking it. Not treating male domestic abuse seriously does still stem from, I'm pretty sure, the way our society tends to view gender roles. But it is an example of why a man-only space could be needed to protect from the threat of potential violence, etc etc.)_________________"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger

Yes Slick, your senses are telling you to create a Man Only Space, that way, the wymynfolk(sp?) will feel compelled to come to your territory.

wait that's kind of clever. Wonder if that would work.

I don't see why not, after all when women want a womon only space, it's often claimed to be a safety/privacy thing, but if men want a man only space, the feminists see it as a patriarchal conspiracy against women, so they will surely invade out of sheer principle.

Well, think of the women-only buses in India. Groping on buses was and is very widespread, and women were afraid of being on buses. So some buses were designated as women-only. There are many cases of women-only spaces being created as a safe space for women because of the fear that men will harm them in some way. On the other hand, can you really think of a man-only space created in order to protect men from violence from women, or from the threat of potential violence?

Um, yes? Like, say, a shelter for men that are victims of domestic abuse?

Of which there is currently a pitifully small number?

EDIT: Small number of shelters, not small number of abuse victims. There's probably a good bit of un/underreported male domestic abuse victims, simply due to how seriously our society treats that issue.
(read: Not very. =( )
(No, this is not the fault of Feminism, before anyone even attempts to accuse me of thinking it. Not treating male domestic abuse seriously does still stem from, I'm pretty sure, the way our society tends to view gender roles. But it is an example of why a man-only space could be needed to protect from the threat of potential violence, etc etc.)

Shelters for men who have suffered from domestic violence are a very, VERY important thing. I don't want to discount that. There needs to be that service for men who are violently cut off from their personal lives and need to escape bad domestic situations.

I do think that's different than the kind of space diagram12345 was talking about, though, which specifically needs to be carved out in shared public space because women in public are not safe from men in public.

It's hard to imagine men ever needing public men-only spaces because they're constantly in danger of public female harassment, threats, assault, and multiple women just always getting all up in their personal space JUST for being men.

Yes Slick, your senses are telling you to create a Man Only Space, that way, the wymynfolk(sp?) will feel compelled to come to your territory.

wait that's kind of clever. Wonder if that would work.

I don't see why not, after all when women want a womon only space, it's often claimed to be a safety/privacy thing, but if men want a man only space, the feminists see it as a patriarchal conspiracy against women, so they will surely invade out of sheer principle.

Well, think of the women-only buses in India. Groping on buses was and is very widespread, and women were afraid of being on buses. So some buses were designated as women-only. There are many cases of women-only spaces being created as a safe space for women because of the fear that men will harm them in some way. On the other hand, can you really think of a man-only space created in order to protect men from violence from women, or from the threat of potential violence?

Um, yes? Like, say, a shelter for men that are victims of domestic abuse?

Of which there is currently a pitifully small number?

EDIT: Small number of shelters, not small number of abuse victims. There's probably a good bit of un/underreported male domestic abuse victims, simply due to how seriously our society treats that issue.
(read: Not very. =( )
(No, this is not the fault of Feminism, before anyone even attempts to accuse me of thinking it. Not treating male domestic abuse seriously does still stem from, I'm pretty sure, the way our society tends to view gender roles. But it is an example of why a man-only space could be needed to protect from the threat of potential violence, etc etc.)

Shelters for men who have suffered from domestic violence are a very, VERY important thing. I don't want to discount that. There needs to be that service for men who are violently cut off from their personal lives and need to escape bad domestic situations.

I do think that's different than the kind of space diagram12345 was talking about, though, which specifically needs to be carved out in shared public space because women in public are not safe from men in public.

It's hard to imagine men ever needing public men-only spaces because they're constantly in danger of public female harassment, threats, assault, and multiple women just always getting all up in their personal space JUST for being men.

I agree in societies where women are constantly harassed/groped/etc on public transport, creating women-only public transport makes sense, but that wasn't the part of their post I was strongly objecting to.

Perhaps it wasn't what they meant, but what they said was "On the other hand, can you really think of a man-only space created in order to protect men from violence from women, or from the threat of potential violence?" They don't really mention public spaces in that question. They simply point out the seeming sillyness of a man-only space to protect *men* from violence from women.

Perhaps that wasn't what they mean, and perhaps I was reading too much into it, but... I can't really know what they meant, only what they said, which is why I responded as I did._________________"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger

I agree in societies where women are constantly harassed/groped/etc on public transport, creating women-only public transport makes sense, but that wasn't the part of their post I was strongly objecting to.

Perhaps it wasn't what they meant, but what they said was "On the other hand, can you really think of a man-only space created in order to protect men from violence from women, or from the threat of potential violence?" They don't really mention public spaces in that question. They simply point out the seeming sillyness of a man-only space to protect *men* from violence from women.

Perhaps that wasn't what they mean, and perhaps I was reading too much into it, but... I can't really know what they meant, only what they said, which is why I responded as I did.

The plural is fairly important here. Men do face domestic violence, and it's a problem that it's an under-recognized problem.

It is still specific individual men needing to get away from specific individual women, (or gay partners) and the need for men-only spaces in shelters, rather than mixed, is still not so much to protect the men from other women who might harass them, as it is to keep women in similar circumstances from feeling threatened by the men. It's a safe space for a man who is in an abusive situation, but it is still not for the sake of protecting men from women. Not at all the same way, and the needs are not equivalent.

The difference here is having space where women can be protected from men at large. Do you think men go through their days having to constantly worry about being attacked or harrassed by any woman they pass by on the street? Is this your personal experience? Do you know any man who lives their life that way?_________________[Stripeypants has enabled lurk mode.]

Yes Slick, your senses are telling you to create a Man Only Space, that way, the wymynfolk(sp?) will feel compelled to come to your territory.

i thought he _had_ one of those, aka: his living room couch. he periodically shares it with squig, and used to share it with crim....although it doesn't seem to attract too many women.

unless you count the ones the devil sent. but they were acting from a different sort of compulsion.

As far as I am aware, Slick has not placed a sign with Men Only - no girls allowed at said place._________________“I believe in benevolent dictatorship provided I am the dictator”- Richard Branson -
----

I agree in societies where women are constantly harassed/groped/etc on public transport, creating women-only public transport makes sense, but that wasn't the part of their post I was strongly objecting to.

Perhaps it wasn't what they meant, but what they said was "On the other hand, can you really think of a man-only space created in order to protect men from violence from women, or from the threat of potential violence?" They don't really mention public spaces in that question. They simply point out the seeming sillyness of a man-only space to protect *men* from violence from women.

Perhaps that wasn't what they mean, and perhaps I was reading too much into it, but... I can't really know what they meant, only what they said, which is why I responded as I did.

The plural is fairly important here. Men do face domestic violence, and it's a problem that it's an under-recognized problem.

It is still specific individual men needing to get away from specific individual women, (or gay partners) and the need for men-only spaces in shelters, rather than mixed, is still not so much to protect the men from other women who might harass them, as it is to keep women in similar circumstances from feeling threatened by the men. It's a safe space for a man who is in an abusive situation, but it is still not for the sake of protecting men from women. Not at all the same way, and the needs are not equivalent.

Fair enough, I suppose I interpreted their post to *include* any space where individual men might need to get away from specific women (or women in general). And I've seen the whole not-considering abused men thing often enough, even among.. well, people that are pretty progressive otherwise, that I sometimes point it out reflexively, I admit.

stripeypants wrote:

The difference here is having space where women can be protected from men at large. Do you think men go through their days having to constantly worry about being attacked or harrassed by any woman they pass by on the street? Is this your personal experience? Do you know any man who lives their life that way?

This appears to be directed at me? I suppose I'll respond-

... Okay, where have people gotten this bizzare idea that I am *AGAINST* women only spaces, and spaces that women can be protected from men at large?

Have I even said anything to that effect in this thread? I'm really, really friggen confused here.

The *only* thing I did was point out that yeah, there are circumstances where men might need sheltering from women. I apparently interpreted the person's post differently than you and Rune.

Still not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm going "WOMEN'S ONLY SPACES ARE BAD. AND WRONG. I SHALL CREATE A NEW WORD FOR THIS. THEY ARE BADONG. YES. WOMEN'S ONLY SPACES ARE BADONG" I didn't even *mention* women's only spaces.

In fact, I even pointed out and affirmed that, yes, women's only spaces in public can be necessary, and I totally understand why!

The original poster just asked if I could think of a place where *a men's only space might be justified*, and I pointed one out (much like I'm pretty sure, if I remember right, women's shelters tend not to let men they don't know/don't work their on the premises)_________________"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger

1) stripey didn't say he thought you were against women's shelters. He was just reinforcing the same point that I made, which you agreed with.

2) diagram didn't ask where a men-only space would be justified. The question was:

Quote:

can you really think of a man-only space created in order to protect men from violence from women, or from the threat of potential violence?

Men's DV shelters are not an example of this. They are shelters and a step towards escape from abusive domestic situations, and the abuser -can- be a woman, but they are not shelters from -women.- And they are not men-only in order to protect those they are sheltering from further abuse from random other women. They are men-only so as not to defeat the safety of women-only shelters that ARE woman-only to protect the women from being further victimized by random men.

Because women being targeted by random harassment and abuse from men just for being women, especially in vulnerable situations, is the big, ugly, widespread problem. Not the other way around.

segregation, eh? The collateral damage caused to men by discriminating against all of them at once in order to protect women from the ones who are socially abusive is unnecessary. Instead of "women only space" make a "no being oppressive through actions" space. Yeah it would be harder to enforce, much like how people are harder to categorize when we stop dehumanizing them.

also, is this Tat's slide into essentialist positions? because this will lead to some fucked up places. im interested in how many people abandon his ideology and when, as he slowly reveals, shall we say, trans-critical perspectives?_________________Don`t give up.