This week I spent a solid day of re-bolting an open project (the line of old carrots) and replacing loose bolts on Hip Shake Jerk Wall, Blue Mountains. I returned 3 days later to remove the old bolts and carrots and check the new bolts and make sure the glue had set and everything was good to go. I arrived at the car park and hadnít even got out of my car before my mate was telling me he ran into you know who... and said that the route had been done in 1989 by G Weigand and was graded 26 and goes by some german name and that You Know Who took the tag off...What?! He took the tag off!... Bummer about the route being done but thatís climbing and at least Iíve given a new life to an old climb... But why was my tag taken off?? The route was obviously not finished and could be dangerous to some unsuspected climber and there were still loose bolts on it! Why would you do that??...Im lost for words...So it turns out that You Know Who also climbed the route then put it up on the ACA site...

What gets me is that this person (who has bolted and re-bolted many climbs in the Blue Mountains) has been completely disrespectful and had the hide to climb this route! He should know better! Climbers ethics mate if someone rebolts or bolts a route you respect what they have done and let them climb it. And you donít take tags off!! Everyone knows that!!

On 18/07/2009 adztcc wrote:>This week I spent a solid day of re-bolting an open project (the line of old carrots) and replacing loose bolts
(snip)

>Climbers ethics mate if someone rebolts or bolts a route you respect what they have done and let them climb it. And you donít take tags off!! Everyone knows that!!>
Hmm.
I sympathise with your effort and understand why you are miffed, but I ask the following questions...

Does this same ethic of poor form to 'steal' a project, exist/apply to an unbolted (or boldly bolted), route that was deliberately put up as a bold route?
(I agree about not removing tags, but that system cannot apply to an unbolted route unfortunately.)

>the route had been done in 1989 by G Weigand and was graded 26 and goes by some german name

On 18/07/2009 adztcc wrote:
Snip...>You Know Who took the tag off...What?! He took the tag off!...
Snip.....>The route was obviously not finished and could be dangerous to some unsuspected>climber and there were still loose bolts on it! Why would you do that??..

I think that if you bolted it, and the glue had not yet been inspected by you, then technically the route is
not yet open, hence the tags, this "who knows it all" is definitely in the wrong removing said tags !
The safety issue is the biggest one for me, not so much his being a rude Asshole.

No worries, adztcc.... You're not the first and you won't be the last person that he treats this way!
Be happy to know that you're not the person who has a route named after him, "97% ___ Free"!!
I wouldn't be so sure he has climbed the route clean, either, despite his claims.

Good on you for getting out and contributing a bit! I've allways felt upset that I seem to cop more flack than thank-you's for my rebolts... so thank you very much from me!!!

On 18/07/2009 adztcc wrote:>I arrived at the car park and hadnít even got out of my car before my mate>was telling me he ran into you know who...

Being said mate I am going to be biased, but I think the point here is why was the tag nicked with no explanation. Had I not ran into 'you know who' that morning, neither of us would have known anything except the tag had been swiped by someone. Surely a call to the details provided on the tag was in order. Forget ethics, what about courtesy? We are a tight knit community and it only takes one silly oversight like this to wreck it.

Ado,
just a few things,
Did you not fully research this line to see if it had been climbed? it appears you haven't as i have seen it mentioned in guides before.
in retrospect, as it is an established climb, even though you had gone to the effort of rebolting it,theorectically you cannot put a tag on it and claim it as your project.
An open project is for all to try, if i'm not mistaken.
If the mystery climber knew that the line you rebolted was done, he does have right to climb it, like wise if it was an open project.

there is an example of this at berowra, there was a very old open project at the right end of the crag on carrots, someone has gone to the effort of rebolting it and put a red tag on it. i hope that they don't feel that it is their project

however the removal of the tag is another issue.
IMO he should of left the tag on, as you rightly stated the older bolts needed removing. and there could of been other issues such as glue etc...

In the past, when i have rebolted an established climb, i leave a noted tag on the first bolt stated when i had glued it and any other pertinant information that mey need doing, ie, removing old bolts , fixing lower off.

i suppose the lesson to be learnt is that,
if a person is going to rebolt a line, be it open project or route. best to research throroughly and find out about the route / line first.

So what? What are you pissed about exactly? Sounds like you dreamed of glory doing the FFA of an old unfinished project. You robbed yourself of this dubious prestige by not doing proper research.

Someone risked their safety by removing your tag? f--- off! Were you going to pull test every bolt to check it? No, you were going to dog up, give the bolts a tap, brief glance to check the glue had set and off you go......exactly the same as this bloke would have done.

And another thing, get off your high horse with the "I'm replacing the deadly dangerous carrots, everyone thank me for my selfless work" routine. Most of the carrots in the blueys are fine, I don't think I've ever seen a "loose" one among the 300 or so which I've regularly clipped at the county. People who get hurt around carrots are almost exclusively clipping them with skinny biners. This is not bolt failure, it's failure to educate ones self about staying safe in a dangerous sport. Loose ringbolts, on the other hand, are quite a common occurance up there. 99% fat free had one fall out!

Anyone know who rebolted that old project at Berowra - they did a good job and it looks like a very hard line. Are we allowed on it or is it no longer an open project since it has been re-equiped. (If I rebolt another line at the crag can I please be allowed on this project as I would then have contributed positively to the area?)

With regards to the job done at the Glen - tricky. I think the polite thing would have been to climb any of the other 60 odd routes there and leave the tagged route alone. If in 3 or 4 weeks the tag is still there then ask the locals and raise the subject that the route was previously established and shouldn't be tied up. Bolting (and rebolting) is hard expensive sticky work so lets all be nice to those who do all the leg work establishing and renovating climbs.

A word of warning though - research an area before bolting - you wont be popular if your latest new project actually turns out to be a retrobolt of an old and bold classic.

PS I dont know who this naughty person is but let me know so they can test the glue on any jobs I rebolt - the Ramset 101 guinea pig

Just to clarify - as I'm sure Adz will too - it was researched before the bolting effort and we still came to the conclusion it was open. Guides, sites and many top level climbers were asked - but clearly not the right ones.

It just seems odd how it all comes to light and is listed now after it is rebolted and attempted, when the people who knew had 20 YEARS to point out the ascent.

Bummer - it is difficult to know with about 10 guides for the Glen (I search them all to find which one awards the highest grade to my latest ascent). Thanks for the effort. What does the route go at and is it any good?

On 19/07/2009 porkpie wrote;>A word of warning though - research an area before bolting - you wont be popular if your latest new project actually turns out to be a retrobolt of an old and bold classic.

Exactly.
... and if one feels retro-ing an existing route is a good option ~> then make every effort to contact the first ascentionist/s as well as advertising the fact on local forum/websites to find out if this is acceptable, and allow time for a response, or are then likely to find the hard work chopped.

On 19/07/2009 Sonic wrote:>had 20 YEARS to point out the ascent.

This was done, was it not? If not, then where did the german name / details come from originally?