British, pronounced Ike, as in Eichmann, not Icky. "One of the most controversial speakers in the world." New Agey, Green politix mutating to neofascist conspiracy theories. Anti-Illuminati, pro-extraterrestrial lizards, Sumerian serpent kings, "What we call the New World Order is the reptilian fourth dimensional agenda." Prolific writer but quantity isn't everything. How about a bit of substance!

greentara wrote:British, pronounced Ike, as in Eichmann, not Icky. "One of the most controversial speakers in the world." New Agey, Green politix mutating to neofascist conspiracy theories. Anti-Illuminati, pro-extraterrestrial lizards, Sumerian serpent kings, "What we call the New World Order is the reptilian fourth dimensional agenda." Prolific writer but quantity isn't everything. How about a bit of substance!

He is one of the most substantial speakers around. How many of his talks have you listened to?

...and in four books published over seven years—The Robots' Rebellion (1994), And the Truth Shall Set You Free (1995), The Biggest Secret (1999), and Children of the Matrix (2001)—set out a moral and political worldview that combined New-Age spiritualism with a passionate denunciation of totalitarian trends in the modern world. At the heart of his theories lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie.

Yucky Icke wrote:I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War. This Jewish/non-Jewish Elite used the First World War to secure the Balfour Declaration and the principle of the Jewish State of Israel (for which, given the genetic history of most Jewish people, there is absolutely no justification on historical grounds or any other). They then dominated the Versailles Peace Conference and created the circumstances which made the Second World War inevitable. They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament.

And chapeaux-bas for this week's winner of our weekly sentence of the week contest:

Icky Icke wrote:Former US president, drug baron and pedophile, George Herbert Walker Bush, incidentally, is mentioned more than any other person in my experience in relation to shape-shifting

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Btw, as a Garuda I find the idea of big nagas rather tasty!

Icke has been a great comedy act on UK chat shows for years. A smattering of ecology does not alter whacky claims. Wasn't he the Son of God before he found reptiles in the Palace?

Blue Garuda wrote:Btw, as a Garuda I find the idea of big nagas rather tasty! :

It's kinda funny to see Boodists, who have no problem propitiating giant reptillian gods and considering texts (the Prajnaparamita Sutras) that come from those same reptillians as gospel, but if someone mentions reptillians outside the Boodist paradigm and jargon, thery're automatically a crank.

Thoroughly tame your own mind.This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

Inge wrote:Nagas are said to be powerful serpent beings, who are capable of shape-shifting also. So they can display a humanoid form at will. Appearently

And Bush is one of them. And the Queen. And Kris Kristofferson. And Boxcar Willie. And hundreds other country western singers, I presume, as well as the King.

Btw, I can't say I've ever heard a Buddhist or Hindu teacher suggest that Nagas come from outer space. And, insofar as I know, few texts in the Kangyur argue that it's Nagas who secretly run our world (alongside the Jews, of course. As the Protocols testify).

Lhug-Pa wrote:I'm actually not so skeptical about Extraterrestrials themselves, however I don't know about all the reptilian stuff.

Maybe some politicians are shapeshifting Nagas, I don't know.

Although isn't Naga also a title for a specific class of human Spiritual practitioners, like the title Arya?

Anyhow, the question is:

Did anyone actually watch the video!?

Even though I'm not an avid David Icke reader/listener, it was a good YouTube video with many excellent points.

And yes, Zionism (not necessarily Judaism) and international banksters are a huge problem, by the way.

Basic reasoning: if you want to make a positive claim that something is true, then you need to provide or point to some kind of evidence or reasoning. Let's take one of these positions in circulation here: there are such things as shape-shifting nagas, and among those shape-shifting nagas are world leaders. What kind of evidence would be needed to substantiate such a claim? Or the claim that flouride in municipal drinking water lowers IQ: what kind of evidence would be warranted there to substantiate the claim?

The problem with making unsubstantiated claims, or claims that cannot be verified by reason or evidence, is that it amounts to wrong speech. You are repeating something that you do not know to be true, or reason to believe it true. This is why such claims are often met with ridicule in Buddhist fora: it is not good in the Buddhist scheme of things to produce such wrong action as repeating something of that kind. (There are several sources on this; the Surangama Sutra is but one that is particularly relevant to the present thread.)

I would like to see less ridicule in response to these claims, however. I do not think that scorn or mocking is a helpful response in most cases. What kind of result does it bear? how is it motivated?

Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

Jikan wrote:I would like to see less ridicule in response to these claims, however. I do not think that scorn or mocking is a helpful response in most cases. What kind of result does it bear? how is it motivated?

Well, I apologize if I offended anyone. But, the problem is, while we can respond to such claims, I'm not sure we can really effectively talk about them - I mean, one usually cannot discuss them with their advocates. Let me explain.

Not only are such views patently, blatantly wild, to put it euphemistically, but, as Greg points out, dangerous, too - not just deluded and delusive (which in itself is a grave problem, of course), but capable of fostering attitudes that may lead directly to violence, and will certainly lead to trouble. I don't think we can afford to simply ignore them. I mean, I don't mind the reptilians thing per se too much, I could put up with the villifications the guy regularly perpetrates, but there's anti-Semitism there, too, there's the rampant persecution mania that calls for Breivik-style action, etc.

And the crux of the matter is that, in my experience at least, you cannot negotiate conspiracy theories. It's just like with religious cults: people who fall for them will not themselves be persuaded, no matter what - and if you insist, you become one of the enemy. Entering such a discussion means proliferation of further links with similar content, further accusations of our being duped by the Powers that Be and thus becoming effectively their lackeys or secret police, etc. What it results in is that a forum or a blog gets increasingly cluttered with such links and ideas, so that anyone who pays it a visit may easily follow them - and be properly 'inspired'. Which, in case of Icke, is not much better than being inspired by Unabomber or Combat 18 guys.

I may be wrong and much too strict here, perhaps because I've known at least two persons who ended up in mental institutions through walking the New-Age-cum-conspiracy-theory path with the zest that started as simple curiosity. It's difficult for me to leave such doors wide open for others to walk through them. I don't think mods should ban posts with such material unless it involves explicit hate-mongering but I felt other posters should silence it ASAP. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Jikan wrote:The problem with making unsubstantiated claims, or claims that cannot be verified by reason or evidence, is that it amounts to wrong speech.

you mean like claims of termas being dug up after being buried by Guru Rinpoche, footprints left in stone of various buddhist saints (every monastery in Tibet has a bunch of these), spontaneously manifest statues, the Garuda claw in Drigung Til Monastery, mediums channeling various Buddhist "spirits", divinations, and about 80% of actual Tibetan Buddhism as it is practiced by Tibetans? Or maybe the TB weenies here are willing to either A) overlook this stuff because Western Tibetan Buddhism is so much more evolved, we can live with the mild embarrassment of Tibetan Buddhism as practiced by Tibetans? or B) believe in all that stuff, even though it has no more basis than most of David Icke's claims?

Thoroughly tame your own mind.This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

You do realise that you are posting on "A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism"? Right?

Now if you believe that Icke's claims are comparable to the (apparent) beliefs found in TB then I would have to say that you have no idea about what TB is really about. I mean, really... If you think that believing that the world is run by a secret society of extraterrestrial aliens is the path which leads to the end of suffering, well... The video is titled "How to Free Your Mind", you really believe that is what Icke's theories are about? Freeing one's mind? Or maybe you believe that TB is not about freeing one's mind?

Ask yourself: is the propitiation of Nagas a central practice in TB for the attainment of enlightenment? If the answer is yes, then I will have to agree that TB does not differ an iota from Icke's theories. But, wait on, Icke wants to overthrow the ruling reptiles and usher in a kind of rainbow Fascism, whereas TB is interested in satisfying the Naga (and all other sentient beings) in order to end suffering. Does that make them the same then?

I mean really, you've got a brain, put it to use. Don't wait for everything to be offered to you on a silver platter.