At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

-Metaphysical Naturalism

Epistemological naturalists claims that the natural sciences are the only means in which we can understand the world, or something along those lines.

"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

Most unhelpful "definition" ever. What does "natural" mean?

"Natural philosophy" is what we used to call "science".

"Nature" is what can be studied scientifically. Since "scientism" is taken, and has strong negative connotations, "naturalism" is used in its place.

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

-Metaphysical Naturalism

Epistemological naturalists claims that the natural sciences are the only means in which we can understand the world, or something along those lines.

Yes, epistemological naturalism is colloquially known as "scientism." Worthy of note too is that epistemological naturalism is self-defeating.

At 12/13/2013 10:45:27 AM, MysticEgg wrote:Anything that's not not naturalism is naturalism.

This definition will never be defeated.

You're welcome.

P

It will never be non-undefeated you mean.

"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

Most unhelpful "definition" ever. What does "natural" mean?

A better question is: What isn't "natural?" The limits are up to context, but then the context was vague to begin with in the OP. A general question will lead to a general answer.

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

Most unhelpful "definition" ever. What does "natural" mean?

A better question is: What isn't "natural?" The limits are up to context, but then the context was vague to begin with in the OP. A general question will lead to a general answer.

Eh, not really. People don't generally define something by what it isn't. "What is a phone?" "Well, it's not a giraffe, or a spaceship or..."

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

Most unhelpful "definition" ever. What does "natural" mean?

A better question is: What isn't "natural?" The limits are up to context, but then the context was vague to begin with in the OP. A general question will lead to a general answer.

Eh, not really. People don't generally define something by what it isn't. "What is a phone?" "Well, it's not a giraffe, or a spaceship or..."

But is a giraffe something simplistic as nature and all of its connotations? Arguably, there is no such thing as "unnatural" or "supernatural." Nature has the connotation to even mean existence in its entirety. If nature, indeed, is something superlative, negative attributes are just as relevant as the positive; a principle that many philosophers favored in defining God.

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

Most unhelpful "definition" ever. What does "natural" mean?

A better question is: What isn't "natural?" The limits are up to context, but then the context was vague to begin with in the OP. A general question will lead to a general answer.

Eh, not really. People don't generally define something by what it isn't. "What is a phone?" "Well, it's not a giraffe, or a spaceship or..."

But is a giraffe something simplistic as nature and all of its connotations? Arguably, there is no such thing as "unnatural" or "supernatural." Nature has the connotation to even mean existence in its entirety.

So God is natural?Cool, I can be a naturalist and a theist now.

If nature, indeed, is something superlative, negative attributes are just as relevant as the positive; a principle that many philosophers favored in defining God.

Via negativa. Yes, I'm aware of the tradition. And they use that mainly because God is believed to be transcendent. The same can't be said of nature.

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

Most unhelpful "definition" ever. What does "natural" mean?

A better question is: What isn't "natural?" The limits are up to context, but then the context was vague to begin with in the OP. A general question will lead to a general answer.

Eh, not really. People don't generally define something by what it isn't. "What is a phone?" "Well, it's not a giraffe, or a spaceship or..."

But is a giraffe something simplistic as nature and all of its connotations? Arguably, there is no such thing as "unnatural" or "supernatural." Nature has the connotation to even mean existence in its entirety.

So God is natural?Cool, I can be a naturalist and a theist now.

If that's how you self-identify, sure. Gaiaists and other "natural" religions have been around longer than Christianity and the other mainstream religions. Ever heard of sun worship?

If nature, indeed, is something superlative, negative attributes are just as relevant as the positive; a principle that many philosophers favored in defining God.

Via negativa. Yes, I'm aware of the tradition. And they use that mainly because God is believed to be transcendent. The same can't be said of nature.

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

Most unhelpful "definition" ever. What does "natural" mean?

A better question is: What isn't "natural?" The limits are up to context, but then the context was vague to begin with in the OP. A general question will lead to a general answer.

Eh, not really. People don't generally define something by what it isn't. "What is a phone?" "Well, it's not a giraffe, or a spaceship or..."

But is a giraffe something simplistic as nature and all of its connotations? Arguably, there is no such thing as "unnatural" or "supernatural." Nature has the connotation to even mean existence in its entirety.

So God is natural?Cool, I can be a naturalist and a theist now.

If that's how you self-identify, sure.

So I can believe in an anselmian perfect being that is non-physical, all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful and still be a naturalist?

Gaiaists and other "natural" religions have been around longer than Christianity and the other mainstream religions. Ever heard of sun worship?

If nature, indeed, is something superlative, negative attributes are just as relevant as the positive; a principle that many philosophers favored in defining God.

Via negativa. Yes, I'm aware of the tradition. And they use that mainly because God is believed to be transcendent. The same can't be said of nature.

Why not? Because you said so?

Why? What is transcendent about nature in the same way the God of classical theism is,supposed to be?

At 12/13/2013 4:04:20 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:... I'd like to nail down a good working definition - there doesn't seem to be any lately, it can be stretched and molded really so much so as to be without any substance.. let's try and give it some?

"Naturalism is "the idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world; (occas.) the idea or belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]"

-wikipedia

Most unhelpful "definition" ever. What does "natural" mean?

A better question is: What isn't "natural?" The limits are up to context, but then the context was vague to begin with in the OP. A general question will lead to a general answer.

Eh, not really. People don't generally define something by what it isn't. "What is a phone?" "Well, it's not a giraffe, or a spaceship or..."

But is a giraffe something simplistic as nature and all of its connotations? Arguably, there is no such thing as "unnatural" or "supernatural." Nature has the connotation to even mean existence in its entirety.

So God is natural?Cool, I can be a naturalist and a theist now.

If that's how you self-identify, sure.

So I can believe in an anselmian perfect being that is non-physical, all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful and still be a naturalist?

You can believe in anything you want. Belief and logic have little to do with one another.

Gaiaists and other "natural" religions have been around longer than Christianity and the other mainstream religions. Ever heard of sun worship?

If nature, indeed, is something superlative, negative attributes are just as relevant as the positive; a principle that many philosophers favored in defining God.

Via negativa. Yes, I'm aware of the tradition. And they use that mainly because God is believed to be transcendent. The same can't be said of nature.

Why not? Because you said so?

Why? What is transcendent about nature in the same way the God of classical theism is,supposed to be?

That would depend on how we "define" nature, which you yourself don't in anyway define except through giving negative definitions (i.e. nature is not "transcendent"). And you accuse me of unhelpful definitions. Oh the irony.

My point is that Nature transcends human understanding. Sure, we have some scientific understanding of our universe, but that is minuscule compared to the whole. We hardly understand our own anatomy, much less nature and all of its implications.