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Rumor: Mercedes Planning Direct BMW M3 Coupe Rival with C63 AMG Coupe

Rumor has it Mercedes is preparing to go after the BMW M3 Coupe with a coupe of their own. The C class coupe would share the drivetrain from the C63 sedan which would mean it would get the same 6.2 liter V8. If Mercedes shoved their new twin turbo V8 in this thing, they would instantly dominate the landscape but most likely be stepping on the toes of their more expensive AMG models which is why they won't do it.

This car is obviously aimed at the M3 and will clearly outmuscle it along with the RS5 which doesn't really have much muscle. The CTS-V coupe clearly would also be one of the targets. The car will not have a dual clutch transmission unfortunately which is a bit of set back. Note, much of this information comes from Autocar so don't take this as confirmation of a specs just yet, things may change.

As I understand it, the C207 which is the chassis code for the coupe is built on the W212 E Sedan platform with which it shares approximately 60% of its components.

How would that make it W204?

Your quote (citation is wikipedia?) doesn't mention the platform at all. The parts-sharing has nothing to do with the platform it's built on. The former CLK shared a lot of E parts as well - but was built on the C platform. This isn't anything new...

As far as my understanding pertaining to the current E Coupe's platform, here's an article referencing a discussion with Wolfgang Bremm:

True, but as I said my understanding is the majority of the components are shared so it would be logical, wouldn't it?

Seems the googling doesn't make it that straightforward:

Built atop a stretched and widened version of the CLK’s platform, the E-Class coupe features more strongly defined rear quarterpanel ‘pontoons’, uniquely contoured headlamps, sashless windows and, of course, a big three-pointed star in the centre of the grille.

So then, by your reasoning, the E class would technically be a stretched C platform if using the CLK, right?

I just don't see why the W212 is considered E and the C207 E coupe wouldn't be. The world car fans article is interesting and it doesn't seem to be as clear cut as you are making it:

However, due to the growing media attention of this report, MBUSA officials have issued a statement, according to Left Lane News, saying the E-Class coupe shares more than 60 percent of its "components and technology" with the E-Class sedan. In what appears to be an attempt to excercise some damage control and divert some of the attention back to the E-Class the statement fails to address the inner body structure or platform as being W212 or W204.

So then, by your reasoning, the E class would technically be a stretched C platform if using the CLK, right?

No, that's completely illogical. The current E Class platform is the w212 chassis. The CLK was built on the w203 C Class platform. The w204 C Class platform would be aptly described as a "stretched and widened version of the CLK platform."

Originally Posted by Sticky

I just don't see why the W212 is considered E and the C207 E coupe wouldn't be. The world car fans article is interesting and it doesn't seem to be as clear cut as you are making it:

Your selective-quotation is interesting. You read the whole article? Your quote is after this:

Speaking with Wolfgang Bremm, E-Class product manager, Automotive News has confirmed that the 2010 Mercedes-Benz E-Class Coupe is in fact based on the C-Class platform, not on the E-Class after which it is named. This is the very same C-Class platform officially called the W204. Renaming the car that replaced the two-door CLK as an E-Class is interesting to say the least, but it follows Merc's previous production of basing the W209 CLK on the W203 C-Class platform.

That's, of course, before considering the Autoblog piece, referencing the CEO of MBUSA:

The Mercedes-Benz E-Class Coupe is all-new for 2010, with sleeker, sportier proportions and improved efficiency and performance. The E-Class also weighs 400 pounds less than its sedan stable-mate, but not because of light weight materials. It's because the E-Class coupe is underpinned by the C-Class platform, produced in the same Bremen factory as the C-class, while the E-Class sedan is built in Sindelfingen.

So why not just make a two-door C-Class and base another coupe on the new E-Class architecture? Ernst Lieb, CEO of Mercedes-Benz USA, said the C-Class platform was used to give the E-Class Coupe improved performance characteristics. Changing the C to an E also enables Mercedes to charge over $48,050 to start; $50 less than the outgoing CLK350, but a whole lot more than a two-door C-Class. With its smaller proportions and lighter weight, using the C-Class platform also enables Mercedes to make the new E-Class Coupe far more efficient than its predecessor.

If you have a conflicting source specifically claiming that the E Coupe is built on the E platform (which is chassis code w212), I'd love to see it. Everything I've seen is that the A/C207 is built on the w204 (i.e. C Class) platform.

No, that's completely illogical. The current E Class platform is the w212 chassis. The CLK was built on the w203 C Class platform. The w204 C Class platform would be aptly described as a "stretched and widened version of the CLK platform."

That source states the W212 E is a stretched CLK platform. So you are saying that source is incorrect and that is not the case?

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

If you have a conflicting source specifically claiming that the E Coupe is built on the E platform (which is chassis code w212), I'd love to see it. Everything I've seen is that the A/C207 is built on the w204 (i.e. C Class) platform.

I went by the source you gave me which states the following:

However, due to the growing media attention of this report, MBUSA officials have issued a statement, according to Left Lane News, saying the E-Class coupe shares more than 60 percent of its "components and technology" with the E-Class sedan. In what appears to be an attempt to excercise some damage control and divert some of the attention back to the E-Class the statement fails to address the inner body structure or platform as being W212 or W204.

So, which is it? Your own sources are conflicting and clearly this is a bit confusing and not straightforward. Mercedes states 60% of the mechanical components are the same as the E. Ok, then we have conflicting reports stating the suspension is from the C class. Maybe it is a bit of both?

You may be right but I just don't see anything that decisively states the E class coupe is a C class platform. It would seem the C207 is a combination of several factors making for a unique platform all too itself taking cues and parts from both, the majority of which come from the E.

That source states the W212 E is a stretched CLK platform. So you are saying that source is incorrect and that is not the case?

I am not saying that source is incorrect, but it is apparent that you didn't read the article or your specific quoted segment very carefully. It states no such thing about the w212:

Built atop a stretched and widened version of the CLK’s platform, the E-Class coupe features more strongly defined rear quarterpanel ‘pontoons’, uniquely contoured headlamps, sashless windows and, of course, a big three-pointed star in the centre of the grille.

What it is stating, is that the E-Coupe is built on "a stretched and widened version of the CLK's platform" - the CLK, which incidentally, was built on the w203 platform. w204 is the "stretched and widened" w203. So, perfectly logical that the E Coupe is built on w204... at least, nothing that would specifically refute it.

So, which is it? Your own sources are conflicting and clearly this is a bit confusing and not straightforward. Mercedes states 60% of the mechanical components are the same as the E.

First, regarding the "your own sources are conflicting" comment - I disagree. The WCF link is literally titled "2010 Mercedes E-Class Coupe is based on W204 C-Class Platform." Additionally, the piece of the article you keep referencing pertaining to the MBUSA annoucement, simply makes the "60% shared components and tech" claim - which has no bearing on the platform used. If they share instrument clusters, navigation systems, engine/tranny, leather, steering wheels, etc... it has no direct correllation to what platform the car was developed and built on. MB shares parts across w212 and w204 sedans too you know - doesn't make them the same platforms. Conspicously absent from the MBUSA annoucement (and as noted by WCF) is clarification that the E-Coupe uses the E-Class platform. Don't you think if they (MB) were using the w212, or a newly developed platform, they would've explicitly clarified that the w204 platform was NOT being used? MB's annoucement was classic "deflect and diffuse" language - my guess is that was intentional.

Ok, then we have conflicting reports stating the suspension is from the C class. Maybe it is a bit of both?

What's "conflicting" about fact that the suspension is from the C Class? The platform and suspension coming from the C Class still easily leaves 60% (if not more) of components and technology that could be shared with the E Class... especially if MB feels like being liberal with their definitions.

And, both? Auto manufacturers build their cars one of two ways: pick a platform they already have in-use and develop/engineer the new model off of that, or... in the case that any/all existing platforms are deemed insufficient, they develop a new platform specific to that model.

You may be right but I just don't see anything that decisively states the E class coupe is a C class platform.

I gave you two articles, which cite discussions with the E Class product manager and the CEO of MBUSA. Both claim that the C Class (w204) platform was used for the E Coupe to increase it's performance and efficiency. You can search any MB enthusiast forums and you'll find posts explaining the E Coupe is built from the C Class platform. Does it make it a bad car? Of course not - hell, it might make it better than if they'd used the w212.

It would seem the C207 is a combination of several factors making for a unique platform all too itself taking cues and parts from both, the majority of which come from the E.

It would seem that now you're using "platform" as some sort of vague, philosophical term. Let me state this question as clearly as possible: "what chassis is the 2010 E Coupe built on?" Obvious and reasonable answers would be "w212," or "w204," or "other." But only one is correct. This isn't an "open to interpretation" type of thing.

So the 550 is using E class suspension and 60% of the parts are from the E class yet it is still considered a C class platform?

Interesting that you chose that thread to pick a post from. Read the first ten posts (the first entire page) of the thread, and what I've been trying to say this whole time is pretty clearly explained.

What it is stating, is that the E-Coupe is built on "a stretched and widened version of the CLK's platform" - the CLK, which incidentally, was built on the w203 platform. w204 is the "stretched and widened" w203. So, perfectly logical that the E Coupe is built on w204... at least, nothing that would specifically refute it.

Actually, what that is stating is that the E sedan is built on a stretched and widened C class platform. So, technically, using your line of thinking wouldn't that make the W212 a modified C platform?

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

First, regarding the "your own sources are conflicting" comment - I disagree. The WCF link is literally titled "2010 Mercedes E-Class Coupe is based on W204 C-Class Platform."

Yes, it sure is titled that. However, I read the entire article not the title. If you read it, it states:

the statement fails to address the inner body structure or platform as being W212 or W204.

Ok? So who cares what the title says? MB's own documents don't confirm one or the other either way. What they do confirm is that 60% is from the W212. That sure doesn't make things very clear, does it?

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Don't you think if they (MB) were using the w212, or a newly developed platform, they would've explicitly clarified that the w204 platform was NOT being used?

You asking me why I'm not speculating for Mercedes? What Mercedes does clarify is that the majority of the mechanical bits are from the W212. Seems they just did address it. We aren't talking about AC knobs or cruise control stalks here used on all the platforms.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

What's "conflicting" about fact that the suspension is from the C Class? The platform and suspension coming from the C Class still easily leaves 60% (if not more) of components and technology that could be shared with the E Class... especially if MB feels like being liberal with their definitions.

Did you just miss where it was stated that the 350 shares those bits but the 550 doesn't? Actually, the 550 has W212 suspension pieces, does it not? This seems to make it all the more conflicting and not nearly as clear as you attempted to present it.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

I gave you two articles, which cite discussions with the E Class product manager and the CEO of MBUSA. Both claim that the C Class (w204) platform was used for the E Coupe to increase it's performance and efficiency. You can search any MB enthusiast forums and you'll find posts explaining the E Coupe is built from the C Class platform. Does it make it a bad car? Of course not - hell, it might make it better than if they'd used the w212.

Yes, and I gave you an article where Mercedes directly addresses the confusion and states the majority of the platform is W212 based. Are there W204 pieces? Sure, but can you provide which ones? Seems to me there is a bit of a mix here. I could care less which they use, doesn't even matter to me, but I don't see anything that decisively puts it one way or other which yes, makes it conflicting.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

It would seem that now you're using "platform" as some sort of vague, philosophical term. Let me state this question as clearly as possible: "what chassis is the 2010 E Coupe built on?" Obvious and reasonable answers would be "w212," or "w204," or "other." But only one is correct. This isn't an "open to interpretation" type of thing.

Clearly it is open to interpretation somewhat as Mercedes is pushing a majority W212 shared platform outlook. Many of the people on the forums feel it is a dressed up C. Others feel it is an E from the ground up. Sorry, it isn't one or the other. The more I am seeing is the more unique this platform is in combining aspects of both. Maybe we should specifically look just into the chassis to remove any ambiguity which obviously is showing just how many pieces this takes from the E?

Interesting that you chose that thread to pick a post from. Read the first ten posts (the first entire page) of the thread, and what I've been trying to say this whole time is pretty clearly explained.

If it is still unclear to you... well, I'm not sure anything I could post or link would help at this point.

Yep, I read the entire thread and it seems they can't agree on it. Why do you think so many pages are there? Once again, it isn't black or white as you attempted to portray it. Even the benz owners can't agree on it. You are just siding with one particular side of it without definitive proof. Far too much speculation for my liking.

You get the point. To help customers keep track of what Mercedes is what, the CLK is being renamed the E-class coupe for the C207-chassis. Unlike the old C124, it's not merely a two-door version of the sedan. In fact, it's not really based on the sedan at all. Mercedes insist that sixty percent of the coupe's structure and parts comes from E-class, but of course that means that the other forty come from somewhere else. In this case, it's the C-class.

Actually, what that is stating is that the E sedan is built on a stretched and widened C class platform.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that - can you please show me where it says that? The w212 sedan is built on a stretched and widened C class platform? Requote the quote for me, please - I believe that to be incorrect.

What Mercedes does clarify is that the majority of the mechanical bits are from the W212.

No, they didn't. You are jumping to conclusions. Read MBUSA's chosen language carefully.

Did you just miss where it was stated that the 350 shares those bits but the 550 doesn't? Actually, the 550 has W212 suspension pieces, does it not? This seems to make it all the more conflicting and not nearly as clear as you attempted to present it.

One poster in that thread noticed that MB markets the E 550 Coupe or Sports Sedan as having "Sports tuned Dynamic Handling Suspension." He was positing that perhaps the E 550 Coupe shared more with the E Sedans than the E 350 Coupe. Which is perhaps interesting, but still not germaine to what platform the E Coupe is using.

What is directly related to the subject of this thread, as well as our little tangent, is that same poster (who actually owns an E Coupe and Cab) goes on to say:

I would not be so sure about that, MB is going to release a C-Class Coupe next year and in 2014 a C-Class Cab. I am sure that will some what cannibalize their E-Class Coupe and Cabs sales. I am sure the new C-Class Coupe and Cabs will more than likely share the same C-Class Chassis as the E-Class Coupes and Cabs which means they will be about the same size and the main difference I bet between the C-Class and E-Class Coupes and Cabs will be in the engine types and options offered and more than likely the E-Class will have higher end opinions that will not be offered in C-Class.

And, for what it's worth, the poster Diesel Benz (who clearly knows his MBs, given that he lists them by their factory codes) looked up the parts via EPC to refute the "suspension shared with the E Sedan" claim based on MB marketing-speak:

I assume you are referring to a 207.372, E550 Coupe?

I'll attach (at least for a short time) an EPC print covering all possible front suspension parts for a 207.372 (all markets). You can find two parts that have a 212 number, a coil spring shim that is actually a 204 part on cars with vehicle dynamics package (483) but in any case not really a body specific part anyway. The same for a dirt protecting rubber part.

The actual strut part (number 10) is a 207 specific part except on a sports suspension model where it is a 204 part.

I could print a similar pdf from a 212.072 but all body style dependent parts are 212 parts there.

If I had the front torsion bar parts listed, you would find all parts being from 204 (a few nuts that are generic).

The rear suspension does not have a single 212 part. The shocks however are not from 204 but 207 specific because of the 207 shell difference at that location.

Quite strange to conclude that the C207 E550 Coupe would share the W212 suspension.

But there is a small difference between 350 and 550 in the sense that the 350 has 204 front brakes while the 550 has 207 specific front brakes (not 212).

Not to mention that E Sedans have airmatic suspensions optional - which isn't an option for even the highest-end E Coupe.

Yes, and I gave you an article where Mercedes directly addresses the confusion and states the majority of the platform is W212 based.

MBUSA's annoucement does not state that. Again, you are either jumping to conclusions or trying to spin their statement. MB states (paraphrasing) "the E Coupe shares over 60% of its components and technology with the E Sedan." It doesn't mention the platform one way or another. MB's executives have also stated to automotive journalists "we chose to use the C platform for development of the new E Coupe for better performance and efficiency characteristics." Additionally, the Autoblog article comments that the E Coupe is built in the same factory alongside the C Class... yet the E Class Sedan is built in a completely different factory. All of the evidence is staring you in the face - you are welcome to disregard it, however.

Knowledgeable posters and/or owners all seem to be in relative agreement that, generally speaking, the E Coupe is E-Class Sedan-level interior, tech, exterior styling ques, and build quality... all built upon a C Class chassis with C Class suspension hardware (except where necessitated by a model-specific part). It shares almost zero chassis/suspension hardware with the E Sedan, because it is not built on the w212 platform. The w212 platform is too big, if MB had taken that approach the E Coupe end-result would've been significantly bigger/heavier/more expensive than it is. Instead, MB used their smaller, lighter w204 platform as the basis for the E Coupe, which fit with their design/budget parameters.

I could care less which they use, doesn't even matter to me, but I don't see anything that decisively puts it one way or other which yes, makes it conflicting.

LOL. I disagree - you seem to care a great deal. And, while identifying what's shared and what's not would be time consuming, the reality of the platform used for the foundation of the E Coupe is not in conflict.

Clearly it is open to interpretation somewhat as Mercedes is pushing a majority W212 shared platform outlook.

What is a "majority w212 shared platform outlook"? I don't get what that even means... they're sharing the w212 platform across different models? Link please?

The more I am seeing is the more unique this platform is in combining aspects of both. Maybe we should specifically look just into the chassis to remove any ambiguity which obviously is showing just how many pieces this takes from the E?

People who've looked up part numbers via EPC have done that (again, crediting Diesel Benz):

The E-class Coupe C207 is certainly not a C-class but if you care to spend some time looking at the parts the car consists of, and compare this to a CLK, you can find that the "lower part" of the car is (almost) 100% identical to a W204. It does not have any essential 212 parts like the 208 had from a 210 etc.

Which all makes sense, given that the chassis is from the w204 C Class, and that the E Coupe is not derived from the w212 E Class chassis.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that - can you please show me where it says that? The w212 sedan is built on a stretched and widened C class platform? Requote the quote for me, please - I believe that to be incorrect.

No, they didn't. You are jumping to conclusions. Read MBUSA's chosen language carefully.

No I'm not at all. You are basing this all on an earlier report made by Ernst Lieb regarding the C-Class connection. Mercedes came and later clarified this. Your argument is based on information that came before Mercedes specifically stated the majority of the car is E class based. You think they chose 60% accidentally? Mercedes did it to address the point, I think they themselves know their car better than you do wouldn't you say?

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

And, for what it's worth, the poster Diesel Benz (who clearly knows his MBs, given that he lists them by their factory codes) looked up the parts via EPC to refute the "suspension shared with the E Sedan" claim based on MB marketing-speak:

Yep, and what proves is the car is the car is a hodgepodge. Looks to me like there are parts from everything on there as well as C207 specific parts further complicating the matter, wouldn't you say? Seems there is a bit of interpretation involved the deeper we delve.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

MBUSA's annoucement does not state that. Again, you are either jumping to conclusions or trying to spin their statement. MB states (paraphrasing) "the E Coupe shares over 60% of its components and technology with the E Sedan." It doesn't mention the platform one way or another.

How am I spinning the statement, "the E Coupe shares over 60% of its components and technology with the E sedan." Um, this part seems clear to me. The majority of the components and technology are from the W212. The minority would obviously be taken from the C class.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

What is a "majority w212 shared platform outlook"? I don't get what that even means... they're sharing the w212 platform across different models? Link please?

Perhaps I need to be more specific. Mercedes is pushing hard to show the car is an E class platform, not C. That would be why they clarified the confusing and erroneous statements people have been running with about the C-class underpinnings. They seem to believe it is an E, why don't you? The E coupe and E sedan would be what is a shared platform in this instance, the coupe sharing most of its parts with the sedan which has been established.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

The E-class Coupe C207 is certainly not a C-class but if you care to spend some time looking at the parts the car consists of, and compare this to a CLK, you can find that the "lower part" of the car is (almost) 100% identical to a W204. It does not have any essential 212 parts like the 208 had from a 210 etc.

Could have sworn I said this does not make it crystal clear it is a W204 but you claimed it was. It is open to interpretation and there are conflicting pieces of information as well as those that point to some unique aspects which your source has looked up. No matter how you break it down, the majority of the car is E sedan. One's opinion on the bottom end is proof of nothing when Mercedes has already made their statement.

Much discussion has been had over the new E-Class sedan, which Leftlane reviewer Mark Elias recently drove. In his first drive report, Elias correctly pointed out that the new coupe is E-Class based, unlike its CLK-Class predecessor, which broke tradition for two generations by being based on the smaller C-Class architecture.

Sticky, apparently we will have to agree to disagree. I'm tired of the multi-quote back and forth... you win; I am tapping out.

From everything I've followed and learned about the E-Coupe, it is my understanding that it is based on the architecture of the w204 chassis, not the w212. This view seems to mesh well with certifiable facts like the suspension used on the car, the size/weight profile of the car, the factory it's built at, comments from Bremm and Lieb, part-lookup via EPC, the list goes on.

Frankly, I even feel the MBUSA PR annoucement confirms it, due to the conspicous absence of any "this Coupe is built on the same platform as the Sedan, out of the same factory" language (or some equivalent) to clarify. Stating that the entire car shares 60% of it's components and technology wtih another model doesn't have any bearing on the chassis/platform it's based on. It is, however, a "feel-good" answer to give to E-Coupe owners and prospective owners that felt cheated by the C Class (w204) platform usage mentioned previously by MB executives.

You seem to believe that the E-Coupe is built on (or at least based off of) the w212 chassis... or perhaps it's own unique chassis, but definitely not the w204. I believe that to be incorrect, but I will not try to convince you further.

Sticky, apparently we will have to agree to disagree. I'm tired of the multi-quote back and forth... you win; I am tapping out.

It really isn't a matter of winning or losing, I was about to say the same thing.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

From everything I've followed and learned about the E-Coupe, it is my understanding that it is based on the architecture of the w204 chassis, not the w212. This view seems to mesh well with certifiable facts like the suspension used on the car, the size/weight profile of the car, the factory it's built at, comments from Bremm and Lieb, part-lookup via EPC, the list goes on.

From what I read in the thread, I can definitely see your position.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Frankly, I even feel the MBUSA PR annoucement confirms it, due to the conspicous absence of any "this Coupe is built on the same platform as the Sedan, out of the same factory" language (or some equivalent) to clarify. Stating that the entire car shares 60% of it's components and technology wtih another model doesn't have any bearing on the chassis/platform it's based on. It is, however, a "feel-good" answer to give to E-Coupe owners and prospective owners that felt cheated by the C Class (w204) platform usage mentioned previously by MB executives.

It is pretty clear what the announcement was designed to do. It was designed to give the "official" position that the E coupe is based mostly on E sedan architecture. That way, the "official" standpoint is that it is based on the sedan. Now, there are obvious parts from the C-class, but the Mercedes standpoint is quite clear.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

You seem to believe that the E-Coupe is built on (or at least based off of) the w212 chassis... or perhaps it's own unique chassis, but definitely not the w204. I believe that to be incorrect, but I will not try to convince you further.

That is not really what I'm saying. I'm saying that there is far more to it than simply being able to state it is straight W204. The Mercedes stance muddles it a bit more. I also do believe from just the short research I have seen there are some unique aspects to it. Completely unique chassis? Probably not, what is? But does that mean it is straight W204? Not exactly.

You are both extremely well respected members of the European online community and the sharing of your knowledge is greatly appreciated; let's keep in mind that often in spirited disputes real truths or facts come out which benefit everyone--I've heard that somewhere.

Thanks to both Sticky and c32AMG-DTM for their contributions to the thread.