Tuesday, May 06, 2008

I'm working on giving the shield a bit more love in my Moldvay/Cook/LL hack. The shield really doesn't get the prestige it deserves. There's a reason it was a staple of the infantryman's gear from the dawn of history all the way into the 17th century. Shields work. They stop blows, they can be moved to intercept attacks coming from almost any direction, and they can be used to attack your foes. Simply lowering your AC by a mere point is hardly representative of the value of a good shield.

However, things are complicated by my adoption of some popular houserules for weapon damage. To whit, I'm considering tossing the plethora of different dice types for weapons and just adopting 1d6 for single-handed weapons and 2d4 for two-handed weapons. This is a variation on schemes I've seen elsewhere. Fighting with two weapons allows you to roll 2d6, and you take the better roll.

So you can see that there's a lot of value to fighting without a shield in improving the damage your character dishes out, making the shield an even less likely choice. What can be done to rehabilitate the shield and make it a worthwhile choice mechanically?

I'm considering allowing the shield to act as ablative armour. One thing historical shields frequently did was shatter. A strong blow with an axe or a sword could cleave a shield, splintering the boards. Viking duels often had a three-shield rule, allowing each combatant to enter the contest with a shield on his arm and two spares in reserve. (I believe this was seen in "The 13th Warrior", but it's been a while since I've watched it, so my memory could be faulty.)

With my houserule, you get the usual -1 to your AC with a shield. However, any time you take damage, you can opt instead to say your shield absorbed the force of the blow. The shield is shattered and must be discarded, but you don't take any damage from that hit. It's quick, it's easy, and it's valuable.

What about magic? Should a shield ward you against the ferocity of a fireball or a lightning bolt? My instinct is to say yes, but that makes a shield incredibly valuable, and takes a lot of the sting out of those spells. Maybe you can sacrifice the shield in exchange for an automatic save and half damage? Do you get to decide after you've rolled the save, or do you have to choose before you roll? We can go crazy with this and say that shields crafted from the wood of the rowan tree can be sacrificed for a successful save versus any spell, even those that don't deal damage directly.

What about magical shields? I'm kinda meh about the idea of mundane swords being able to shatter magical shields. On the other hand, I certainly don't want a warrior being able to just ignore hits every round because his shield won't break. Maybe each +1 gives the shield a 10% chance to survive the blow? Maybe I just won't have magical shields in my campaign? Seriously, in the quarter-century-plus I've been playing D&D, I think I can count the number of magical shields in my games on one hand.

(I also considered allowing the shield to give its bearer an AC of 3 versus a single opponent, but then you have to keep track of who it's been used against, and the character's AC jumps around between 3 and whatever their armour grants. It's a lot more hassle in the thick of dice-rolling. And I just love the visceral feel of shields being cloven in twain under the blows of a dangerous foe.)

226 comments:

In my few revisions of C&C that I use when I want to play "D&D" these days, I have a Small Shield and a Large. The small grants the usual +1 to AC to the front and shield flank. The larger grants +2 AC bonus to the same. The smaller allows you to carry a light item in that hand, while the larger does not. I apply circumstantial mods to using them, such as penalties to stealth and climbing or being able to fit into tight spaces (or use in tight spaces) depending on the shield.

I like the "cloven shield" idea of having it soak a hit and break. I also like the idea that it might soak the lightning bolt or fireball and grant auto half-damage. Both seem flavorful and promote shield use (as opposed to just putting on the heaviest armor you can and swinging great weapons).

As for magical shields, I'd be a little more generous, but that's mostly because I think a magical item should be pretty special. I'd give it an item saving throw of some sort to soak the hit AND survive being "cloven". Seems pretty silly that a "priceless magical item" would have, at best, a 50% chance of surviving such a blow from, say, a spear or club.

How about forcing the weapon that hit it to get a saving throw, if it survives then the shield gets a saving throw, plus it's bonus. A magical shield can absorb so many blows per day/week/month whatever.

If the shield has cooler properties then just blocking damage, then it will make the player think twice before using it in this fashion.

Maybe only magic protects from magical attacks (spells, maybe magical weapons). Some sort of chance to not break, or perhaps a weakening of the enchantment before breaking, might be appropriate for magical shields.

badelaireSmall vs. large shields isn't something I've looked at, since Moldvay/Cook just has a single, generic shield listed, but yeah, I'll have to play with that large vs. small idea and see how it works.

magic shieldsI'm hesitant to include saving throws. One of the things I like about the cloven shield rule is that it doesn't add another die roll to combat. But it may be the best I've heard yet, and is certainly worth investigating.

"If the shield has cooler properties then just blocking damage, then it will make the player think twice before using it in this fashion."

Very, very true, and just another reason to avoid any lame +x shields that don't have any other distinguishing features.

Yeah, the rules for dueling, or hólmgangulog, could be extremely complex:

These were the roles for the hólmgang: a cloak five ells square was to be laid down, with loops in the corners. Pegs with heads were to be rammed in there which were called tiösnur. He who attended to this was to approach the tiösnur in such fashion that he looked up between his legs while holding onto his earlaps and speaking the spell which later was used in the sacrifice which is called tiösnublót. Three borders (or furrows), each a foot in breadth, were to be around the cloak, and at the edge of these borders must be four posts which are called höslur (hazels). And when all this had been done the spot was called "hazelled" (völlr haslaðr). Each contestant was to have three shields, and when they were destroyed then he must step on the cloak again if he had left it before, and defend himself with his weapons thereafter. He who had been challenged was to have the first blow. If one of the two was wounded so that blood flowed on the cloak, then no further fighting was to be done. If either one stepped outside the höslur with one foot, then that is called "he yields ground"; but "he flees," if with both. Each contestant was to have someone to hold his shield for him. He who was wounded hardest was to pay hólm-ransom (hólmlausn) -- three marks of silver (Hollander, Kormáks saga, 33-4).

You can find more here: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/holmgang.shtml

Here's an offhand notion for a potent magical shield: Normal weapons have a chance to sunder only on a natural 20, and must then make a saving throw to break the shield. The attacking weapon is also destroyed on a *successful* sunder.

MaxMy hesitation to use something like that is based on my goals for the houserule. If I say the shield can only be sundered if the attacker rolls a 20, then either the shield can absorb any other strike without cost (making the defender nigh untouchable), or we say the shield can only absorb damage when the attacker rolls a 20, which makes a magical shield less useful than a non-magical shield.

I've done something similar in my games; in Rolemaster, it didn't stop the blow, but would take the crit away (which, for those not savvy in Rolemaster, is what usually kills you). You could do this once with a small shield, twice with a larger one before it was considered shattered or busted up beyond the point of rescue.

With my houserule, you get the usual -1 to your AC with a shield. However, any time you take damage, you can opt instead to say your shield absorbed the force of the blow. The shield is shattered and must be discarded, but you don't take any damage from that hit. It's quick, it's easy, and it's valuable.

I think shields are a bit more resilient than that. I would say give shields a value of how many blows they can take in this regard before they are splintered (for wooden shields), a metal shield would have a much higher value. On a critical hit (if used), a wood shield would be splintered on that blow regardless of how many blows it could take. A metal shield would be a little tougher in regards to crits. The magical shield still presents a problem. Maybe double or triple the value of their non-magical counterparts vs. non-magical weapons? Magical weapons would treat magical shields the same way as non-magical ones.

I think shields are a bit more resilient than that. I would say give shields a value of how many blows they can take in this regard before they are splintered (for wooden shields), a metal shield would have a much higher value.

I can certainly understand the sentiment. However, keep in mind that shields won't be shattering willy-nilly all over the place. The player decides when his character's shield is sundered. The rest of the time, the shield is assumed to be deflecting blows as it provides it's single-point bonus to AC.

As for metal vs. wooden shields, that's a matter of taste. I'm working from a base of Moldvay/Cook/LL, which only has a single, generic "shield" in the equipment list. Also, I'm a middle-aged guy, so time is at a premium for me; anything that slows down combat is anathema.

However, if you're playing a game where the difference between a simple wooden shield and an all-steel buckler is important, I'd probably just give the steel buckler a saving throw. If you have the player declare they want to risk the shield before you roll damage, then you're just replacing the damage roll with the saving throw, so it won't take that much longer.

Just don't make the saving throw too good. You don't want fighters to be too resilient. The idea is to give the character a get-out-of-jail-free card, not allow them to ignore a flurry of blows and go round after round unscathed because they got lucky with their sheild's saving throws. The nice thing about the mechanic as it stands now is that it allows the player to judge whether the sacrifice is worth it, and makes it easy for the DM to judge how much more resilient are the characters who uses it.

Looking at it this way, I can see a lot of parallels between this houserule and the per-encounter and per-day abilities of 4e characters. The important difference, to my mind, is how the "power" is tied to something the character can understand and plan for.

I just got this as an email from Mike Harvey, and there are some good ideas here, including a very easy save for magical shields:

I was unable to enter a comment on your Shields blog entry (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=28751902&postID=2987785875550901100) because the captcha was boken, but I wanted to offer some additional ideas:

Using a shield to block dragon breath is a classic image... I refer you to Moldvay page 1 for proof!

Any shield can be used to block dragon breath like any other blow, resulting in an automatically successful save... but this will instantly destroy any mundane shield.

Blocking blows with metal and magical shields...

Wooden shields are ablative. If you block a blow they are destroyed.

Magical Wooden Shields get a save equal to "bonus or less" on 1d4. Thus a +3 shield has a 75% chance to save.

Metal shields are indestructable, but if you block a blow your shield arm is injured and useless. Either way you lose the shield for the rest of the fight.

Magical Metal Shields work the same as metal shields, but get a save equal to "bonus or less" on 1d4 to avoid the injury/loss.

An arm injury means that arm is bruised and you cannot block any further blows with it until it heals. An injured arm heals in one day. However if you receive any healing magic that restores hit points, the arm is also restored.

Option: If you don't like arm injuries, you could let the shield be torn from the character's arm instead. Or you could make it a 50/50% chance for injury or loss.

Having your shield arm broken or your shield ripped out of your hand adds to the visceral punch.

Wooden shields are great because they are cheap and protect your arms. Metal shields are great because you can re-use them and don't have to carry spares. Orcs with shields are unpleasant.

I would allow a character to choose whether to block a blow, spell or dragon breath after the damage and/or saves are rolled. Sacrificing a shield is a significant decision and this allows it to be done only when it makes a difference. Knowing what might have happened makes it dramatic.

Have them able to block spells and spell effects, such as dragon breath, whereas normal shields cannot? That would be very cool.

As for the problem with breaking them, have them degrade with each thing they absorb. E.g. a shield +3 degrades to a shield +2 on absorbing a blow... a shield +1 degrades to a normal shield and will break the next time it absorbs damage. That will put players in a bind and they will likely use them ONLY to absorb life threatening damage!

Kiltedyaksman: Yep, I use it for anyone (or thing) using a shield in the normal way. I probably wouldn't allow it with, for instance, hill giants who have shields strapped to their body as a form of makeshift armour.

However, I'm also playing Moldvay/Cook/Labyrinth Lord, which has fairly quick combat. For someone playing a more recent iteration of D&D (3.0 and later, specifically), I'd probably only allow it for the PCs, since combat in those games is slow enough already.

Good thoughts and the rule is simple and brilliant. Though I would mention, as I think may have been done, that the shield just needs to be rendered useless by the 'splintering', some of them may be able to be repaired.

I just mention this because I like the idea of a fighter dragging around a battered, many times repaired shield that barely has any of its original parts "saved my life a dozen times this shield has!"

I realize that it's been a long time since this was posted, but I've decided to experiment with making shields better in S&W Whitebox, myself, and thought I'd try this rule (comments appreciated):

In addition to the AC bonus of a shield, Fighting Men and subclasses may use one to parry attacks that otherwise would hit. Roll a Save vs. Weapons (Fighting Men get a +2 to this save) to take the damage on the shield instead. A normal shield has 10 hit points before it is destroyed (the remains can still be used for the AC bonus, but not to save against weapons). Magic shields get an extra 10 hit points per +1 of magic bonus, and may add their bonus to the save against weapons. If a magic shield has a special bonus against a particular type of attack, it takes no damage from that sort of attack. Other classes may also attempt to use a shield in the fashion, but Clerics (and Thieves and Monks) take a -2 penalty to Saves vs. Weapons, while Magic Users take a -4. Subclasses are treated as their root class. (Though I won't be using anything but generic "shields", at least at first, I added the following just in case: If used, Bucklers only get the AC bonus, larger or smaller shields may have more or less hit points.)

i love these rules! i think Recursion King's thoughts on magical shields degrading is great. I just have a question though; what about piercing weapons? I can't really imagine a shield bursting to splinters from an arrow or a spear. How would that work?

Oh, also, sorry to double post (especially on such an old, old topic) but I had a historical comment I forgot to add:In real life, pretty much nobody used metal shields, ever. An entire shield made of metal was much too heavy to use. The knight wielding an all-metal heater, much like the knight sitting astride an ungelded stallion, is pretty much a myth. Basically all (non-ceremonial, non-buckler) shields were wood, sometimes with a metal rim to reinforce it. BUT, what evidence we do have of metal shields show that they could be "riven" almost as easily as a wooden one from a strong enough sword or axe blow. So I would say, even if you do decide that metal shields are usable in a fantasy world, there's no need to make special rules for them, especially since any metal shield would probably be very thin and not offer protection much better than a wooden one. Of course, this has no bearing where magic shields are concerned...

As to what to do about spears and arrows, I assume the shield's been taking a beating up until that point in other fights, and the offending arrow or spear is simply the final straw that breaks the camel's back. Maybe all it does is knock the handle loose instead of shattering the entire shield to splinters, or maybe the spear gets lodged in the shield and can't be pulled out, making the shield more a burden than a benefit in further combat.

I'm using this in my current LL campaign--but I've decided that the player has to decide to sacrifice the shield before damage is rolled.

Further, since they've killed some orcs wielding shields, and they've discovered how quickly they can lose shields at low level, they've started scavenging. But due to the low level of craftsmanship involved, my rule is that if you decide to sacrifice the shield, it only has a 50% chance of actually absorbing the blow. Otherwise, it's sacrificed and the attack just goes right through.

If you made some changing on your blog header.You need to change your font size and color because if some one see in your blog header.They can't read your font name.You are so creative and refreshing..

I was surfing the web, hoping from one site to another when I came across your site. I somehow got stuck and got impressed on how the author has expressed himself. Great Job and I hope to see more good stuff on this site.

Wow, excellent data regarding this issue. You might want to let me know how long will it take? Because I like to write the thesis or may be it would be nice to detect the thesis writing service. Thank you very much.

wow....! Very nice and useful article. Your way of explanation is beautiful. I learn a lot of things from your article. The stuff you are using that is very useful and helpful. Thanks for sharing a very informative article.

Good thoughts and the rule is simple and brilliant. Though I would mention, as I think may have been done, that the shield just needs to be rendered useless by the 'splintering', some of them may be able to be repaired.

Houston credit repair and save money. Your credit score largely determines the lenders available and the interest rate at which they will lend. Fix credit and expand the number of lenders willing to compete for your loan.

well let tell you something, while I was a fighter I discover the benefits of make a shield cover with demon skin and wyvern scale, the protection increase in a big level, of course attacks like lighting ball or a fire ball make a damage but in less grade.

Great job with this content. Your article is chock full of excellent information and valid points. You’ve written your content with unique and reasonable thoughts. Thank you for making your article so interesting and original. Vancouver mortgage refinancing

To have a deeper understanding of what great Pest control in Sydney is all about, here is a brief definition of a pest. Basically, pests are any unwanted and destructive insects or animals which attack food, crops or livestock.

Pure Catering organise click here catering in brisbaneand provide Sunshine Coast catering, and beyond. With modern menus, the best customer service and an exceptional eye for detail, Pure Catering has established a reputation as one of the best caterers in the region.

We are looking to break dvd and Blu-ray sales records, So fans of The Avengers Movie can save 30% plus an extra $5.00 off of The Avengers DVD, Blu-ray, 3D Blu-ray and Digital Copy at The Avengers DVD.org

View more than 50 attractions from their upper decks or, alternatively, break your journey at any point and rejoin later Both buses operate daily and tickets are available from the Visitor Information Centre, or your bus driver. Ask us at our Cool Melbourne airport car hire rental depot about these services.

When you're looking for a reliable Sydney plumber, you can always count on Call the click here 24 hour plumber sydney to be on time, every time. Call the Plumber have been servicing Sydney homes and businesses since 2001 - our work is of the highest quality, and we clean up after ourselves.

Catering’s a snap with West End Park Café. We have taken the hassle out of corporate click here catering brisbane with our easy online order form. Simply download the document, complete your order and let us take care of the rest.

So let’s play our share in making lives SAFE by click here Sydney tree removal when it is needed. It can even be your own, if you do not maintenance of trees around you, by Tree Removal at right time who know a tree FALL on you or on your valuable property any moment.

Do you need a qualified click here carpet cleaning Sydney? The expert team at Empire Carpet Cleaning are professional carpet cleaners who have been delivering the best carpet and upholstery cleaning services.

Frozen pipes can cause a crack somewhere in the water line. You need to call click here 24 hour plumber sydney who can find that crack and replace the pipe quickly. They can also unthaw a frozen water pope without causing stress to the metal and without causing the pipes to crack.

Pure Catering is an Australian great catering brisbane company based on the Sunshine Coast of Queensland, Australia. With combined 40 years in the hospitality industry, in most environments, we are market leader in performance and professionalism.

I wouldn't push it.. Sure it's frustrating that they're not prompt with taking care or repairs.[which is disappointing],. but when it comes to rent my bro. was only a few days late with his rent,then he returned home one day and the property manager had changed the locks. gas heating melbourne

Pest Free click here pest control brisbane and the pest management services that we offer can prove invaluable in your efforts at eradicating and preventing pest infestations of any kind from taking root in and around your property. Our professional Brisbane pest control services include:

I was working and suddenly I visits your site frequently and recommended it to me to read also. The writing style is superior and the content is relevant. Thanks for the insight you provide the readers!

Sometime people forget about humanity. Magic is not for ourselves, its for humanity if someone are in dangerous then we use magic for save human life but some people use magic for money and benefit. Which is not good for humanity.

"This is bigger than the other shield. Use it to fend off the enemy's spells and rocks, and Zola's ball."

I really enjoy simply reading all of your weblogs. Simply wanted to inform you that you have people like me who appreciate your work. Definitely a great post. Hats off to you! The information that you have provided is very helpful.

I really enjoy simply reading all of your weblogs. Simply wanted to inform you that you have people like me who appreciate your work. Definitely a great post. Hats off to you! The information that you have provided is very helpful.

The post is written in very a good manner and it entails many useful information for me. I appreciated what you have done here. I am always searching for informative information like this. Thanks for sharing with us.Prank Calls

I like the "cloven shield" idea of having it soak a hit and break. I also like the idea that it might soak the lightning bolt or fireball and grant auto half-damage. Both seem flavorful and promote shield use (as opposed to just putting on the heaviest armor you can and swinging great weapons).

They stop blows, they can be moved to intercept attacks coming from almost any direction, and they can be used to attack your foes. Simply lowering your AC by a mere point is hardly representative of the value of a good shield.website

It is great to have the opportunity to read a good quality article with useful information on topics that plenty are interested on.I concur with your conclusions and will eagerly look forward to your future updates the fashion type

We will give examples of repairs and prices and if you give us a call we will try and help you diagnose the fault with your iPhone over the telephone we are a smartphone repairs company. We are located on the outskirts of Belfast,

We will give examples of repairs and prices and if you give us a call we will try and help you diagnose the fault with your iPhone over the telephone we are a smartphone repairs company. We are located on the outskirts of Belfast,

I comprehend something more complex on different blogs everyday. It will always be interesting to research content from other writers and work out a little something from their store. I’d want to use some with the content on my blog site whether you do not ideas. Natually I’ll offer you with a weblink on your web blog site. Thanks for talking about.