I suppose I could have just replied, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Or you could have replied; 'The tractor is feeling purple'. Because that also would have made no sense and at the same time also avoided answering the question. I brought that post to your attention because you revived this thread. I assumed you wanted to discuss it.

I suppose I could have just replied, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Or you could have replied; 'The tractor is feeling purple'. Because that also would have made no sense and at the same time also avoided answering the question. I brought that post to your attention because you revived this thread. I assumed you wanted to discuss it.

Oh, yes, I'm happy to discuss this. My point was rather that you assumed in your question that God was afraid. If you can show that he was afraid, then it will be a good time to ask why he was afraid. If he wasn't actually afraid though, it doesn't make much sense to ask why he was afraid.

I suppose I could have just replied, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Or you could have replied; 'The tractor is feeling purple'. Because that also would have made no sense and at the same time also avoided answering the question. I brought that post to your attention because you revived this thread. I assumed you wanted to discuss it.

Oh, yes, I'm happy to discuss this. My point was rather that you assumed in your question that God was afraid. If you can show that he was afraid, then it will be a good time to ask why he was afraid. If he wasn't actually afraid though, it doesn't make much sense to ask why he was afraid any more than my asking when you stopped beating your wife (assuming you haven't ever beaten her.

I suppose I could have just replied, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

That would make sense if you replied to someone who wrote down in a memoir something to the effect of "well, my wife was going to go shopping. I taught her a lesson and she stopped. I have to teach her a lesson every once in a while to keep her in line." Yeah, he didn't come out and say that he beats his wife, but his actions at least illicit suspicions that he does in fact beat his wife. Same here - yeah, he doesn't come out and say that he was afraid, but his actions at least illicit suspicions that he was, in fact, afraid.

Which is fine. You can stick with the 'nothing' answer, but you've got some explaining to do then. The question is essentially "What was the guy who looks scared of the Tower of Babel afraid of?" And your answer is "he's not scared - that whole confounding of languages bit in response to the whole "nothing shall be impossible" thing was just a bit of hyperbole for teh lulz."

So the next logical question - why did Yahweh respond to the Tower of Babel incident as if he was scared of it?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Yaweh was afraid of nothing...so he confounded the peoples languages...because he was what? Capricious? Insane? Evil? Malevolent? Just an imaginary myth?

To impede their progress due to their pride? Why does that require him to be afraid of anything (in your view)?

Here's what the Bible says:

Quote from: Genesis 11:1-9

11 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[1] they found a plain in Shinar[2] and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[3]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.Footnotes:

[1] Genesis 11:2 Or from the east; or in the east[2] Genesis 11:2 That is, Babylonia[3] Genesis 11:9 That is, Babylon; Babel sounds like the Hebrew for confused.

Now, it says nothing about YHWH punishing humans for their hubris. YHWH says that, speaking one language, nothing humans plan will be impossible. It then scattered them all over the Earth and changed their languages by force (so much for free will). YHWH was afraid of humans.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

I suppose I could have just replied, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

That would make sense if you replied to someone who wrote down in a memoir something to the effect of "well, my wife was going to go shopping. I taught her a lesson and she stopped. I have to teach her a lesson every once in a while to keep her in line." Yeah, he didn't come out and say that he beats his wife, but his actions at least illicit suspicions that he does in fact beat his wife. Same here - yeah, he doesn't come out and say that he was afraid, but his actions at least illicit suspicions that he was, in fact, afraid.

Which is fine. You can stick with the 'nothing' answer, but you've got some explaining to do then. The question is essentially "What was the guy who looks scared of the Tower of Babel afraid of?" And your answer is "he's not scared - that whole confounding of languages bit in response to the whole "nothing shall be impossible" thing was just a bit of hyperbole for teh lulz."

So the next logical question - why did Yahweh respond to the Tower of Babel incident as if he was scared of it?

It would be good for you to first show that Yahweh did respond to the Tower of Babel (and city) incident as if he was scared of it.

It would be good for you to first show that Yahweh did respond to the Tower of Babel (and city) incident as if he was scared of it.

Meh...maybe 'scared' is the wrong word. 'Felt threatened' fits better I suppose, though, honestly, I would contend that within context that meaning of 'scared' could be easily derived. But I'll accept that isn't certainly the case.

So...what did Yahweh feel threatened by?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Yaweh was afraid of nothing...so he confounded the peoples languages...because he was what? Capricious? Insane? Evil? Malevolent? Just an imaginary myth?

To impede their progress due to their pride? Why does that require him to be afraid of anything (in your view)?

Because Yahweh himself says this;

'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.'

He is quite clearly afraid. If he were not afraid, why did he take action?

Modern humans have created structures far exceeding anything dreamed about when men wrote the bible, why has Yahweh not taken action now?It is crystal clear to me that there was no god involved in this story, the writer thought that heaven actually existed above the clouds and that by building a tower it would incur the wrath of the god that lived there.

Now, it says nothing about YHWH punishing humans for their hubris. YHWH says that, speaking one language, nothing humans plan will be impossible. It then scattered them all over the Earth and changed their languages by force (so much for free will). YHWH was afraid of humans.

I haven't seen anything to show that YHWH was afraid of anything or anyone. Just repeating it doesn't make it true, old chap.

It would be good for you to first show that Yahweh did respond to the Tower of Babel (and city) incident as if he was scared of it.

Meh...maybe 'scared' is the wrong word. 'Felt threatened' fits better I suppose, though, honestly, I would contend that within context that meaning of 'scared' could be easily derived. But I'll accept that isn't certainly the case.

So...what did Yahweh feel threatened by?

Haven't seen anything to show that Yahweh felt threatened by anyone or anything so far. Just repeating that it was so doesn't thereby make it true.

I've explained above. Note that if I am wrong in my explanation that does not thereby make your own claim right (as I am sure you are aware).

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Modern humans have created structures far exceeding anything dreamed about when men wrote the bible, why has Yahweh not taken action now?

Hmm. It rather suggests that back in Genesis it wasn't because he was afraid then, doesn't it. Perhaps it was to do with their pride as I suggested.

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It is crystal clear to me that there was no god involved in this story, the writer thought that heaven actually existed above the clouds and that by building a tower it would incur the wrath of the god that lived there.

Would you please supply us with the evidence or reasoning by which you came to this crystal clarity. Thanks.

I've explained above. Note that if I am wrong in my explanation that does not thereby make your own claim right (as I am sure you are aware).

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Modern humans have created structures far exceeding anything dreamed about when men wrote the bible, why has Yahweh not taken action now?

Hmm. It rather suggests that back in Genesis it wasn't because he was afraid then, doesn't it. Perhaps it was to do with their pride as I suggested.

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It is crystal clear to me that there was no god involved in this story, the writer thought that heaven actually existed above the clouds and that by building a tower it would incur the wrath of the god that lived there.

Would you please supply us with the evidence or reasoning by which you came to this crystal clarity. Thanks.

All in the bible old chap;

Genesis 11:1-9The tower of Babel

11 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, ‘Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.’ They used brick instead of stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, ‘Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.’

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.’

You will note that the man that wrote Genesis did not add 'of course no human tower could ever reach heaven'; he didn't because back then folks didn't have aeroplanes, they thought that heaven literally was in the sky and a tower made high enough would reach it. This is backed up by the god character becoming afraid.

I haven't seen anything to show that YHWH was afraid of anything or anyone. Just repeating it doesn't make it true, old chap.

In that case, you're not a very good reader. I take it that when you read "Harry Potter" and read that Harry Potter is running away from Voldemort, or that people are even afraid to say Voldemort's name, you don't think they're afraid.Anyway, google "Bible iron chariots". Your god pisses himself (metaphorically speaking) from an army that uses them. It makes him, quite literally, impotent against said army.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

It would be good for you to first show that Yahweh did respond to the Tower of Babel (and city) incident as if he was scared of it.

Meh...maybe 'scared' is the wrong word. 'Felt threatened' fits better I suppose, though, honestly, I would contend that within context that meaning of 'scared' could be easily derived. But I'll accept that isn't certainly the case.

So...what did Yahweh feel threatened by?

Haven't seen anything to show that Yahweh felt threatened by anyone or anything so far. Just repeating that it was so doesn't thereby make it true.

I honestly don't know how else to describe that behavior. Well, I guess god could just be a massive jerkbag (preventing the people from uniting by confounding their language 'just because' seems like a d*ck move), but I'm guessing you'd disagree with that.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

You will note that the man that wrote Genesis did not add 'of course no human tower could ever reach heaven'; he didn't because back then folks didn't have aeroplanes, they thought that heaven literally was in the sky and a tower made high enough would reach it. This is backed up by the god character becoming afraid.

Did they? I take it you aware that shamayim has a similar range of meaning to the English "heaven(s)" and can mean "sky", "heaven", "heavens". Am I right in thinking you think Genesis was talking about a tower reaching up, literally, to heaven (as in "where God is") rather than it meaning "sky"?

It would be good for you to first show that Yahweh did respond to the Tower of Babel (and city) incident as if he was scared of it.

Meh...maybe 'scared' is the wrong word. 'Felt threatened' fits better I suppose, though, honestly, I would contend that within context that meaning of 'scared' could be easily derived. But I'll accept that isn't certainly the case.

So...what did Yahweh feel threatened by?

Haven't seen anything to show that Yahweh felt threatened by anyone or anything so far. Just repeating that it was so doesn't thereby make it true.

I honestly don't know how else to describe that behavior. Well, I guess god could just be a massive jerkbag (preventing the people from uniting by confounding their language 'just because' seems like a d*ck move), but I'm guessing you'd disagree with that.

Ah, yes, the old argument from personal incredulity followed by a straw man. Neat.

We could discuss it further if you came up with some evidence that God did stuff at Babel because he was afraid, perhaps. If not, then we can call it a day, bearing in mind that it has got slightly off-topic.

One question. What do you mean by "Jesus H"? I'm fairly new here. I take it that "Jesus H" is not just a typo.

jesus H christ. I include his middle initial so you know which jesus I mean. Like the difference between George Bush and George W Bush.

Have you ever read "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses" by Richard Bauckham. In there he points out that in the gospels Jesus is only referred to as "Jesus" (with no qualifier) when it is dead obvious who he is. At other times he is called, "Jesus of Nazareth" and so on if there is any doubt about who was meant. Don't feel you need to waste any electrons putting in an "H" unless it appeals to you in some way. I'll take it you mean Jesus Christ unless you specifically start discussing Jesus Barabbas or some Spanish football players.

Ah, yes, the old argument from personal incredulity followed by a straw man. Neat.

Or, you know, you could explain how his behavior is neither the act of a scared or threatened entity or the act of a mean, petty entity.

Seriously - I'm not seeing it. That behavior looks to be the behavior of someone who is either a) scared, b) threatened, or c) mean. Why don't you give me some other options so that I may get over my hump of personal incredulity instead of just f*cking gloating over my ignorance?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

You will note that the man that wrote Genesis did not add 'of course no human tower could ever reach heaven'; he didn't because back then folks didn't have aeroplanes, they thought that heaven literally was in the sky and a tower made high enough would reach it. This is backed up by the god character becoming afraid.

Did they? I take it you aware that shamayim has a similar range of meaning to the English "heaven(s)" and can mean "sky", "heaven", "heavens". Am I right in thinking you think Genesis was talking about a tower reaching up, literally, to heaven (as in "where God is") rather than it meaning "sky"?

No, the term means 'Heaven- the abode of Yahweh'. Because the bible is perfect. If Yahweh had meant 'sky', he would have 'inspired' the English translators to write 'sky'. So heaven; the abode of god it is.

Ah, yes, the old argument from personal incredulity followed by a straw man. Neat.

Or, you know, you could explain how his behavior is neither the act of a scared or threatened entity or the act of a mean, petty entity.

Seriously - I'm not seeing it. That behavior looks to be the behavior of someone who is either a) scared, b) threatened, or c) mean. Why don't you give me some other options so that I may get over my hump of personal incredulity instead of just f*cking gloating over my ignorance?

Gloating? No, not gloating. Just used to a slightly less confrontational discussion on other boards.

It seems to me that Genesis 11 is speaking about mankind getting too big for its boots. Whether it is meant to describe a rapid diversification of languages or not, I don't know. My impression is that it does not, since there is some diversification already spoken of in Genesis 10.

If my kids got too big for their boots when they were smaller, I would try to stop them overdoing it, perhaps showing them that they aren't necessarily God's gift to the world (though I can't actually remember them doing that I'm glad to say).

You will note that the man that wrote Genesis did not add 'of course no human tower could ever reach heaven'; he didn't because back then folks didn't have aeroplanes, they thought that heaven literally was in the sky and a tower made high enough would reach it. This is backed up by the god character becoming afraid.

Did they? I take it you aware that shamayim has a similar range of meaning to the English "heaven(s)" and can mean "sky", "heaven", "heavens". Am I right in thinking you think Genesis was talking about a tower reaching up, literally, to heaven (as in "where God is") rather than it meaning "sky"?

No, the term means 'Heaven- the abode of Yahweh'. Because the bible is perfect. If Yahweh had meant 'sky', he would have 'inspired' the English translators to write 'sky'.

Really? Why?

Genesis 11:9 means "Sky". There, a translation into English for you which says, "Sky", just like in the New Living Translation.

Personally, I'm not fussed. As the NET bible notes points out, "heavens" may be the best translation as "A translation of “heavens” for (shamayim) fits this context because the Babylonian ziggurats had temples at the top, suggesting they reached to the heavens, the dwelling place of the gods." Whether the Babylonians thought of God as literally "up there" is no big deal since it isn't as if Genesis is teaching that God is "up there". It is reporting that the Babylonians (may well have) thought that God was "up there".

If my kids got too big for their boots when they were smaller, I would try to stop them overdoing it,

An example of the poison of Christianity. My kids love biology. If they thought they could create life (they sort of do actually), I would encourage them; learn children, learn!

What was Yahweh trying to do about the Tower if he wasn't afraid of it? Trying to slow down materials technology? Perhaps it would help if you explained exactly what your take on this myth is; what exactly was Yahweh trying to accomplish? Because a sweeping 'Oh he was stopping pride' doesn't cut it with me I'm afraid. Please explain what you mean by this, using the Tower as your example.

You will note that the man that wrote Genesis did not add 'of course no human tower could ever reach heaven'; he didn't because back then folks didn't have aeroplanes, they thought that heaven literally was in the sky and a tower made high enough would reach it. This is backed up by the god character becoming afraid.

Did they? I take it you aware that shamayim has a similar range of meaning to the English "heaven(s)" and can mean "sky", "heaven", "heavens". Am I right in thinking you think Genesis was talking about a tower reaching up, literally, to heaven (as in "where God is") rather than it meaning "sky"?

No, the term means 'Heaven- the abode of Yahweh'. Because the bible is perfect. If Yahweh had meant 'sky', he would have 'inspired' the English translators to write 'sky'.

Really? Why?

Genesis 11:9 means "Sky". There, a translation into English for you which says, "Sky", just like in the New Living Translation.

Personally, I'm not fussed. As the NET bible notes points out, "heavens" may be the best translation as "A translation of “heavens” for (shamayim) fits this context because the Babylonian ziggurats had temples at the top, suggesting they reached to the heavens, the dwelling place of the gods." Whether the Babylonians thought of God as literally "up there" is no big deal since it isn't as if Genesis is teaching that God is "up there". It is reporting that the Babylonians (may well have) thought that God was "up there".

Anyway, that will do me for today. Speak to you another time.

Ok, let's go down this route. The people were not attempting to reach the abode of Yaweh, they were trying to reach the stars. Why did Yaweh try to stop them? Did he actually think the tower of brick would reach above the atmosphere?!?!

It seems to me that Genesis 11 is speaking about mankind getting too big for its boots.

Doesn't read like that to me. If that were the case, I'd have expected some semblance of a mention of the confounding of languages being done for the good of the people. Or some discourse on what was wrong with the whole unity thing to begin with (you know, something to explain what 'getting too big for its boots' means). Alternatively, if that really were the message, I would expect a narrative that was more of an observation on god's part - showing how the people of Babel were trying to get together to build a big tower, and through whatever problems that unity would have caused, it would have failed on it's own. I would not have expected the story to talk about divine intervention via the confounding of language.

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Whether it is meant to describe a rapid diversification of languages or not, I don't know. My impression is that it does not, since there is some diversification already spoken of in Genesis 10.

I would say it doesn't describe a rapid diversification of languages either, as that means of language diversification does not match how we currently understand the evolution of languages to have happened.

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If my kids got too big for their boots when they were smaller, I would try to stop them overdoing it, perhaps showing them that they aren't necessarily God's gift to the world (though I can't actually remember them doing that I'm glad to say).

But would you would try to minimize the collateral damage associated with your stopping of them overdoing it, right? You don't think that confounding languages, causing people to not be able to understand each other from that point forward without great effort, likely leading to misunderstandings and strife, was a bit too much? Caused more problems than it solved kind of thing? Intentionally making people less able to understand each other seems detrimental to...well, anything good frankly. Can you really think of any situation in any universe where the people in a society would be better off being less capable of understanding each other?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

We could discuss it further if you came up with some evidence that God did stuff at Babel because he was afraid, perhaps. If not, then we can call it a day, bearing in mind that it has got slightly off-topic.

Gosh, I thought the plain reading of the passage was dripping with god's anxiety over the whole affair. Add to that the other support I gave regarding the Eden incident and yhwh's generally crabby demeanor throughout the OT was pretty substantial evidence.

Let's look at the story more closely. The people were building a city and a tower. yhwh came along - that is, came down - and said, "what do we have here?" And from whence did he come down? Why, his abode in heaven, of course. And it is interesting he had to do that to see what was going on. One assumes an omniscient being would not need to 'come on down' to see what's what in the middle east.

So, he sees what's doing and says, "if they can do this, they can do anything. Let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." (Wait. Us? Yeah, us. Plural. Interesting.) And then they (whomever they are) confuse the language.

Why? Why would he not want them to achieve their plans? Why would he want to hinder them? And why would he not do similar things later, like at the dawn of the industrial revolution or the invention of the internal combustion engine or the integrated circuit or when man went to the moon? We are talking about one, shitty little bronze age tower. Unless heaven was less than about 500 feet high, they weren't going to succeed anyway. Their crappy bricks with tar as mortar would collapse under their own weight. So, why throw a wrench into the works?

I think the key is back in Eden. yhwh was afraid of people once they gained the godly ability of moral judment. "they will become like us," he exclaimed to the other gods. So, what? What is so horrible about that? As I pointed out already, that would only matter to yhwh if he did not want them to be equals and if he did not want to relenquish his power over them. So, knowing this, and that people would have the ability to do anything they planned, informs us that ywhw is indeed afraid of us. Plus, he didn't want them in heaven. That's his neighborhood.

And in any event, what's wrong with having pride in their achievement?

Of course, all that up there, is just literary analysis. Here's what I think of this stupid story in a historical context: given the cutsey pun on the word babel, it is a folktale to explain a big city and different languages in a way that puts their little, local god at the center of things. Because that is what most of the OT is. Adam is a cutsey pun. Eve is a cutsey pun. Jacob is a cutsey pun. Lots of crap in the OT are cutsey puns and the stories are the folktales of a primitive and backward people to explain things with their little local god at the center of it.

If my kids got too big for their boots when they were smaller, I would try to stop them overdoing it, perhaps showing them that they aren't necessarily God's gift to the world (though I can't actually remember them doing that I'm glad to say).

What do you mean? Like, say, they built a big Lego thing and so you made the go into different rooms to make sure they could not build another big Lego thing until they grew up? That makes no sense.

I cannot see a good parent stifling his childrens' skill or talent or knowledge like that. Yet this is exactly what yhwh did. I don't get it when xians compare god to a father. If he's a father, someone should call child services.

So given the hewbrew's perspective on this, they literally thought yhwh lived in the sky. What they got from the babylonians was the idea that there were multiple heavens. So, according to them, theoretically a high enough tower could reach it.