And "mature" would be the last word I'd use to describe Ahsoka's decision to leave. I think the Council felt sympathy for what Tarkin had put her through, hence their use of the words "great trial." I don't know that they were planning to knight her but it's certainly possible.

Choosing to leave the knightly order that raised you, and taught you all you know, is practically your family, because you no longer believe that they are true to their ideals. Independent thinking and making the hard choice when it would be very easy to smile, be happy to be 'accepted' again, and go right back to being one of the bright and upcoming Jedi of her generation. Recognising that the Jedi are losing their way, and that the argument Barriss put forward was not without merit, even if it was badly acted upon, and choosing not to be a part of it. That the very Jedi Council is blind and fearful. Giving up the resources of a Jedi, to try and make her own way in the universe.

You don't think that was one of the most mature and honourable choices a Star Wars character has made in a long time? She didn't blow anything up, like Offee. She didn't linger, dissatisfied and disillusioned, until she either changed sides or fell to the dark side. She didn't play the loyal Jedi right up until the Clones blew her away. She just respectfully told them where to put their reinstatement... and walked away.

And lets be honest here, the Council was just as much responsible for the whole debatacle as Tarkin, because they condemned her for something she didn't do, arguably the greatest masters of a mystical order of diplomats, detectives and peace keepers in the galaxy. The very people that mediate disputes that are sometimes system wide. If it hadn't been for Anakin and Asajj Ventress (of all people) she would have been executed for a crime she didn't commit. With Jedi consent.

No, frankly walking away was the best choice any Jedi makes in the PT-era.

Refusing to forgive your parent figures for an unintentional slight is not mature, it's immature. Hurting Anakin the way she did, after he had done nothing but stand by her, was beyond immature.

Yeah, I lost any sympathy I had for her when she did that.

I am firmly on the Jedi's side in any Ahsoka vs the Jedi debates and can't be swayed, so we should probably just agree to disagree and drop it here.

Actually, that's the one thing I don't like in her choice, that it hurt Anakin so much. I just think its a side issue, and wasn't her intention, and most importantly was unavoidable. They parted on good, if painful, terms. She could have made it less painful, maybe, by stopping for little longer and making it even more sentimental, but I suppose they were going for brevity. It was still fairly moving. After all, they were working towards the broken Anakin we see in ROTS, and if it had been all fluffy, it wouldn't have contributed to his bad mental state in the film. I believe that if Ahsoka had been at his side, rather than just a KO'd Obi-Wan, when fighting Dooku he would never have killed him. He would have wanted to be an example.

Fair enough though. Moving it away from Ahsoka however, I don't see how you can really be on the Jedi's 'side' (as an Order, not as individuals) as the entire over-arcing message of the PT era is that the Old Jedi Order is well-meaning, but hopelessly arrogant, complacent, stagnant (like the Republic as a whole), and as of AOTC blind. Embodying that, they have to take a pretty large chunk of responsibility for Anakin's fall, amongst much more. They made it clear (the Council) that he wasn't welcome, and only Obi-Wan pretty much threatening to go train him away from the Order convinced them. And Obi-Wan didn't hide his early jealousy as one would expect from a twenty-five year old man. Then we come to AOTC where not only has a Sith Lord been in power for a decade unnoticed, they have also left Anakin to suffer tormenting premonitions about his mother, with the only advice being that they are only dreams/let go of personal attachments, and we all know where that led. ROTS speaks for itself, with Anakin having nowhere to turn about Padme, but towards the plotting Sith Master. And these are just mess ups involving the central character, and forgetting the EU.

Obi-Wan himself admits he (due to the Jedi dogma) failed Anakin.

Then they manage the master stroke, so to speak. Anti-Jedi sentiment had been growing through out the Clone Wars. So what do they do? They enter the Chancellor of the Republics offices, in force and wielding weapons, and attempt to take the lawful (due to the emergency powers, he IS lawful - if only in the letter) head of state into their own personal custody. Even if this had succeeded, they would have basically just committed PR suicide. Palpatine was loved. I can't say they had a great many options, as they were woefully outmanoeuvred, but this was one of the worst things they could have possibly done.

The Jedi are very much heroes, and I love them, but they were doomed from the start as an order, in no small part due to their own actions, choices and mindsets.

...Though I am more of an (post-Palpatine) Empire man, I have to admit.

Oh well. Jedi aren't perfect, even if some people think they should be. But Jedi > Empire of any era for me.

But Anakin's mental state in RotS doesn't need anything outside the films to contribute to it. In the end, Ahsoka really didn't have any effect on him or anyone. Of course that was an early problem with her being his Padawan. She was pretty much filler.

I had hoped she would contribute more to his mental state in ROTS than she did.

As far as the Jedi Order--they had their issues; they had let their guard down and stopped paying attention, which could happen to any group that hasn't had a real threat or enemy in a thousand years. I also don't think Anakin was a good fit for the Order and they were pushed to accept him due to that damn prophecy. But a person not being a good fit for an organization does not mean that there is something wrong with either the person or the organization.

Togruta is right, blaming the Council is the popular thing to do lately, but I still think that accusing them of being responsible for their own demise is a bit much and a little too uncomfortably resembles blaming the victim. They were hunted down and murdered--since when is it OK to blame murder victims for the act as opposed to blaming the murderers?

Oh well. Jedi aren't perfect, even if some people think they should be. But Jedi > Empire of any era for me.

But Anakin's mental state in RotS doesn't need anything outside the films to contribute to it. In the end, Ahsoka really didn't have any effect on him or anyone. Of course that was an early problem with her being his Padawan. She was pretty much filler.

Of course she did. She was a close friend and his padawan for several years. And Anakin bonds deeply, as we know. There is a difference between a valid point and a biased point. If Ahsoka was filler, only as much as TCW and the entire EU themselves are. I don't even really get what point you are trying to make there aside from 'she is irrelevant, because reasons'.

I had hoped she would contribute more to his mental state in ROTS than she did.

As far as the Jedi Order--they had their issues; they had let their guard down and stopped paying attention, which could happen to any group that hasn't had a real threat or enemy in a thousand years. I also don't think Anakin was a good fit for the Order and they were pushed to accept him due to that damn prophecy. But a person not being a good fit for an organization does not mean that there is something wrong with either the person or the organization.

Togruta is right, blaming the Council is the popular thing to do lately, but I still think that accusing them of being responsible for their own demise is a bit much and a little too uncomfortably resembles blaming the victim. They were hunted down and murdered--since when is it OK to blame murder victims for the act as opposed to blaming the murderers?

I think Anakin was a great Jedi; just around fifty years too early. I feel he would have fit right in at Luke's academy. The fact of the matter is that Anakin's special circumstances were never factored in, they attempted to hammer him into a role he didn't fit, rather than working to find a place for him. Their compassion and insight failed them, and the latter is one of the Jedi Trials, which makes it doubly damning. This isn't any normal organizations; refer to my previous post. This is an order of mystics supposedly built upon compassion, insight and all that is good. And they don't know how to deal with one boy with anger and attachment issues beyond embittering him about them. *slow clap* I could go on, but i'm unlikely to sway anyone, nor do i really want to, so I won't bother.

I don't think they are responsible for their own demise. I just think that they really didn't help themselves, and their mistakes made it much worse than it could have been. I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth, especially ones as dire as those, with ramifications far beyond Star Wars.

At the same time, the Sith are responsible for the longest period of peace the galaxy ever had. Darth Bane's rule of two, and the plots that followed, took thousands of years or relative peace and stability to achieve, and the result only lasted twenty years. A good deal if ever there was one. Frankly, the Jedi and Republic had a good run.

Just look at the war and strife in the pre-Bane galaxy and then in the post-RotJ galaxy. That was a Golden Age never likely to be repeated, and it was because the Sith were idiots.

Of course she did. She was a close friend and his padawan for several years. And Anakin bonds deeply, as we know. There is a difference between a valid point and a biased point. If Ahsoka was filler, only as much as TCW and the entire EU themselves are. I don't even really get what point you are trying to make there aside from 'she is irrelevant, because reasons'.

I would think having reasons would help in making valid points.. But yeah, if we're talking about plot holes, filling in gaps, "fixing" things in Star Wars, she really didn't do anything. Anakin already had friends and loved ones to make his story work; adding another was redundant. You might as well say Anakin had a dog that ran away before RotS.

I think Anakin was a great Jedi; just around fifty years too early. I feel he would have fit right in at Luke's academy. The fact of the matter is that Anakin's special circumstances were never factored in, they attempted to hammer him into a role he didn't fit, rather than working to find a place for him. Their compassion and insight failed them, and the latter is one of the Jedi Trials, which makes it doubly damning. This isn't any normal organizations; refer to my previous post. This is an order of mystics supposedly built upon compassion, insight and all that is good. And they don't know how to deal with one boy with anger and attachment issues beyond embittering him about them. *slow clap* I could go on, but i'm unlikely to sway anyone, nor do i really want to, so I won't bother.

I don't think they are responsible for their own demise. I just think that they really didn't help themselves, and their mistakes made it much worse than it could have been. I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth, especially ones as dire as those, with ramifications far beyond Star Wars.

At the same time, the Sith are responsible for the longest period of peace the galaxy ever had. Darth Bane's rule of two, and the plots that followed, took thousands of years or relative peace and stability to achieve, and the result only lasted twenty years. A good deal if ever there was one. Frankly, the Jedi and Republic had a good run.

Just look at the war and strife in the pre-Bane galaxy and then in the post-RotJ galaxy. That was a Golden Age never likely to be repeated, and it was because the Sith were idiots.

I think it's hilarious how in Swtor the Sith Empire are actually the ones that drew up a peace treaty (Albiet for their own weird and sinister reasons, they preferred to engage in cold war instead). So even with there being thousands of Sith, they still preferred their stealthy cloak and dagger-ness on a large community level.

I think the Jedi order fell because they were sheltered and naive, it wasn't that they had any bad intentions, they were compassionate as they could have been to Anakin, but they just did not know his whole story, and there was serious miscommunication. Other Jedi masters might have related better to Anakin, (Qui-gon, Quilan-Vos, idk). They might have prevented the entire thing, or at least made it tricker for Palpatine. Even so, I can't get too annoyed with Obi-wan Kenobi and Yoda's actions when their weaknesses were exploited by Sidious and knowing that they later suffer two decades in exile with their guilt.

Of course she did. She was a close friend and his padawan for several years. And Anakin bonds deeply, as we know. There is a difference between a valid point and a biased point. If Ahsoka was filler, only as much as TCW and the entire EU themselves are. I don't even really get what point you are trying to make there aside from 'she is irrelevant, because reasons'.

I would think having reasons would help in making valid points.. But yeah, if we're talking about plot holes, filling in gaps, "fixing" things in Star Wars, she really didn't do anything. Anakin already had friends and loved ones to make his story work; adding another was redundant. You might as well say Anakin had a dog that ran away before RotS.

That's my point. You didn't give any reasons initially, just said she was filler, which simply doesn't make sense and isn't really a 'reason'. Arguably the entire TCW and EU are filler.

I can see where you are coming from with this last post, however, I just disagree. To be honest I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, as you seem to fundamentally think she is a pointless character. Where as I see her as valuable to Anakin, but also one of the most interesting Jedi we have been able to follow in a long time.

I think the Jedi order fell because they were sheltered and naive, it wasn't that they had any bad intentions, they were compassionate as they could have been to Anakin, but they just did not know his whole story, and there was serious miscommunication. Other Jedi masters might have related better to Anakin, (Qui-gon, Quilan-Vos, idk). They might have prevented the entire thing, or at least made it tricker for Palpatine. Even so, I can't get too annoyed with Obi-wan Kenobi and Yoda's actions when their weaknesses were exploited by Sidious and knowing that they later suffer two decades in exile with their guilt.

That's actually basically my stance on it too, I just worded it differently. I think Qui-Gon would have been ideal for Anakin. Obi-Wan just wasn't ready for it.

When were force sensitive Wookiees uninstated? They exist in the EU. Now GL apparently after a while up and said to the writers of forthcoming works "no more wookiee Jedi" but he never actually retconned the extant ones out of existence. He didn't say Wookiee Jedi were impossible or that there were never any Force-sensitive Wookiees, he just didn't want people to keep putting them in stories. Force-sensitive Wookiees are supposed to be rare, but there was a danger of EU writers creating loads of Wookiee Jedi, and kinda taking away from the general image of Wookiees in the process.

Anakin's mental state in RotS doesn't need anything outside the films to contribute to it. In the end, Ahsoka really didn't have any effect on him or anyone. Of course that was an early problem with her being his Padawan.

Alixen said:

I can see where you are coming from with this last post, however, I just disagree. To be honest I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, as you seem to fundamentally think she is a pointless character. Where as I see her as valuable to Anakin, but also one of the most interesting Jedi we have been able to follow in a long time.

I'm not talking about entertainment, I'm talking strictly story-wise. For example, I like Qui-Gon more than Obi-Wan, but I don't think Qui-Gon was needed for the PT to work. He could've been replaced by a re-written Obi-Wan and it could've worked just as well. The story didn't need the whole "learn to be a Force Ghost off-screen" bit. Some people who love Qui-Gon can't wrap their heads around this, but for the story, it makes sense IMO.

And I think it makes even more sense for Ahsoka and TCW. She was created to be an original character in a show made after RotS but taking place before it, and that meant she was limited just like TCW itself was. Her existence doesn't hinder Anakin's story, but it doesn't add anything either. I don't know what else to call that but filler.

She was created to be an original character in a show made after RotS but taking place before it, and that meant she was limited just like TCW itself was. Her existence doesn't hinder Anakin's story, but it doesn't add anything either. I don't know what else to call that but filler.

I'd call it the missing link. As I expounded upon elsewhere the other day. It might have been in this thread, or another, I forget exactly.

Anakin's turn always felt a bit rushed and hollow. We got the idea there seemed to be tension or some kinda bad blood between him and the Jedi Council, but it was vague, nebulous, we had no idea of it. Just that he and the council were very ill at ease, and something was eating him, driving him away from them and more into the fold of Palpatine. Now, eventually he started getting nightmares of Padme dying in childbirth, but his animus with the council predated that. It was there right from the start of RoTS.

TCW provided the missing link. A significant portion of that was the Ahsoka debacle, with the Jedi behaving in a flagrantly cowardly and disloyal manner to the detriment of his beloved apprentice, resulting in her setting her back against the order in disgust and walking away from the place - which also meant walking out of Anakin's life (even though neither he nor she were personally distrustful of eachother) because Anakin was not at that point ready to let go and walk out of the Jedi Order himself. She had no quarrel with him - but if he was staying and she was going, well, do the math. So from Anakin's POV he likely held the view that the behavior of the Jedi drove her from his side. Drive the wedge in.

Other parts of it were other things that the Order did behind Anakin's back, pulling the wool over his eyes and decieving him... the faked "death" of Obi-Wan being one such thing. It actually resulted in Anakin almost killing Obi-Wan, whom he thought to be Rako Hardeen, ironically in revenge for Hardeen's supposed murder of Obi-Wan. Imagine how he felt when the truth came out over that whole affair. That hammering sound is the wedge between Anakin and the Jedi Order being tapped in some more.

Several things that happened in TCW come together to form a pretty cohesive missing link, illustrating the wedge driven between Anakin and the Jedi Order that allowed Palpatine to manipulate him and convince him that the Order was planning to take over the Republic, and was keeping him in the dark about it. Ahsoka, or more specifically what became of her in the last episodes of TCW S5, made up a key part of that. She might have seemed like she was going to be filler early on, but ultimately was far from filler. She became one of the several shoals on which Anakin Skywalker's relationship with the Jedi Order foundered. None of them would have broken that relationship on their own. But together...

There may indeed be more of this process to come. Wait and see what the S6 episodes, (such of them as there are), bring us whenever they get released. AFAIK Korriban, Syfo-Dyas, Plo Koon, and a secret mission by Yoda are involved. The wedge may yet be driven further, before the events of RoTS.

When were force sensitive Wookiees uninstated? They exist in the EU. Now GL apparently after a while up and said to the writers of forthcoming works "no more wookiee Jedi" but he never actually retconned the extant ones out of existence. He didn't say Wookiee Jedi were impossible or that there were never any Force-sensitive Wookiees, he just didn't want people to keep putting them in stories. Force-sensitive Wookiees are supposed to be rare, but there was a danger of EU writers creating loads of Wookiee Jedi, and kinda taking away from the general image of Wookiees in the process.

What I meant is that the rule on making no more got taken away, as far as I can tell

Fair enough though. Moving it away from Ahsoka however, I don't see how you can really be on the Jedi's 'side' (as an Order, not as individuals) as the entire over-arcing message of the PT era is that the Old Jedi Order is well-meaning, but hopelessly arrogant, complacent, stagnant (like the Republic as a whole), and as of AOTC blind. Embodying that, they have to take a pretty large chunk of responsibility for Anakin's fall, amongst much more. They made it clear (the Council) that he wasn't welcome, and only Obi-Wan pretty much threatening to go train him away from the Order convinced them. And Obi-Wan didn't hide his early jealousy as one would expect from a twenty-five year old man. Then we come to AOTC where not only has a Sith Lord been in power for a decade unnoticed, they have also left Anakin to suffer tormenting premonitions about his mother, with the only advice being that they are only dreams/let go of personal attachments, and we all know where that led. ROTS speaks for itself, with Anakin having nowhere to turn about Padme, but towards the plotting Sith Master. And these are just mess ups involving the central character, and forgetting the EU.

Obi-Wan himself admits he (due to the Jedi dogma) failed Anakin.

Sure, the Jedi as an Order and as individuals made mistakes - they're human/other and thus not perfect.

However, the Order contributed to the events leading to its downfall: the Order did not cause its own downfall. Any/all organizations get a bit complacent over time - hardly a moral failing in and of itself.

To avoid a long post, I'll merely address:

1. "they left Anakin to suffer tormenting premonitions..." Ok, where in the movie is it established that Anakin spoke of the contents of those dreams to Obi-Wan or any Jedi, or when, if he had? I'll grant you he may have, but you have pretty clearly stated that it is established the Jedi ignored something they were aware of.

2. "Obi-Wan himself admits he failed Anakin."
Oh, gosh, where to begin? As a human being/stand-in brother & parent figure, he had to be perfect in order NOT to fail him in some ways. Are you putting blame on a human for being human and imperfect?

We are also speaking of a man who accepts blame - his share and most others' as well - as if his personal feelings speak a universal truth that "he" was the failure behind Anakin. How about he failed to be the perfect mentor at all times in all ways - truth, but human...how about Anakin failed himself? How come Anakin's not held to this impossible "perfect" standard, because if his fall is due to others, how come he wasn't "perfect" enough to rise above their failures - gee, he certainly didn't contribute to his own fall.

Fair enough though. Moving it away from Ahsoka however, I don't see how you can really be on the Jedi's 'side' (as an Order, not as individuals) as the entire over-arcing message of the PT era is that the Old Jedi Order is well-meaning, but hopelessly arrogant, complacent, stagnant (like the Republic as a whole), and as of AOTC blind. Embodying that, they have to take a pretty large chunk of responsibility for Anakin's fall, amongst much more. They made it clear (the Council) that he wasn't welcome, and only Obi-Wan pretty much threatening to go train him away from the Order convinced them. And Obi-Wan didn't hide his early jealousy as one would expect from a twenty-five year old man. Then we come to AOTC where not only has a Sith Lord been in power for a decade unnoticed, they have also left Anakin to suffer tormenting premonitions about his mother, with the only advice being that they are only dreams/let go of personal attachments, and we all know where that led. ROTS speaks for itself, with Anakin having nowhere to turn about Padme, but towards the plotting Sith Master. And these are just mess ups involving the central character, and forgetting the EU.

Obi-Wan himself admits he (due to the Jedi dogma) failed Anakin.

Sure, the Jedi as an Order and as individuals made mistakes - they're human/other and thus not perfect.

However, the Order contributed to the events leading to its downfall: the Order did not cause its own downfall. Any/all organizations get a bit complacent over time - hardly a moral failing in and of itself.

To avoid a long post, I'll merely address:

1. "they left Anakin to suffer tormenting premonitions..." Ok, where in the movie is it established that Anakin spoke of the contents of those dreams to Obi-Wan or any Jedi, or when, if he had? I'll grant you he may have, but you have pretty clearly stated that it is established the Jedi ignored something they were aware of.

2. "Obi-Wan himself admits he failed Anakin."
Oh, gosh, where to begin? As a human being/stand-in brother & parent figure, he had to be perfect in order NOT to fail him in some ways. Are you putting blame on a human for being human and imperfect?

We are also speaking of a man who accepts blame - his share and most others' as well - as if his personal feelings speak a universal truth that "he" was the failure behind Anakin. How about he failed to be the perfect mentor at all times in all ways - truth, but human...how about Anakin failed himself? How come Anakin's not held to this impossible "perfect" standard, because if his fall is due to others, how come he wasn't "perfect" enough to rise above their failures - gee, he certainly didn't contribute to his own fall.

Obi-Wan: "You look tired."
Anakin: "I'm not sleeping well. I've been having those dreams again." (I'm uncertain of the exact line."
Obi-Wan: "About your mother?"
*Cue PT Era Jedi platitude and rebuke* (Paraphrased). I've not watched AOTC recently, but i clearly remember Anakin telling Obi-Wan, and the implications that they had discussed the dreams. And it was noted he has been having the dreams a while, i believe.

I'm not putting any blame on Obi-Wan as a human, he's one of my favorite characters, and of the PT Jedi i believe he is the best and actually least flawed. However, those same human failings you excuse him of are what lead to Anakin's fall, and what Obi-Wan and is highly critical of. As i noted, in Phantom Menace he is clearly jealous of Anakin, and makes no pains to hide it from the boy. Apprenticing him because his master asked him to as a last request does not make that hurt go away. There are various points that Anakin's fate could have been changed, and Obi-Wan is in quite a few of them, investigating Anakin's dreams and being there with him at the Tusken camp being a major one. Attachment aside; when someone is suffering, a Jedi doesn't ignore it or dismiss it. At best, it was Obi-Wan not trusting Anakin and thinking he had an overactive imagination. "They are just dreams. They will pass in time."

Their relationship got better, almost as close as brothers in the Clone Wars, but that flawed father-son dynamic sowed some dangerous seeds. And Yoda's little speech didn't help, though of course he (most likely, you can never tell with the old toad) had no context to what Anakin was asking.

It was the lack of trust in these visions that led Anakin not to tell anyone, including Obi-Wan, about the dreams of Padme, that's fairly clear. Basic story weaving and logic.

Just my opinion of course. My over all view of the Jedi of the PT is that they are so caught up in being wise teachers, that they forget not only compassion, but also that not everyone can be taught in the same way, and that a person may not always be ready for the lesson you are trying to teach. That was their failure with Anakin all over.

I'm actually replying to this in good faith, noting your avatar and sig, that i'm going to get a thoughtful conversation out of this rather than just lashings from a hardcore fan of Obi-Wan. Bear in mind i'm also a big fan of his, following him all the way through Jedi Apprentice, Jedi Quest, and his adventures in the Clone Wars.

But how do you or anyone know Anakin's "visions" were visions or dreams? I surely don't know, unless applying the 20/20 hindsight glasses.

And because Anakin was troubled by his dreams does not mean he fully disclosed the contents of his dreams.

..

another thing: I prefer to think of human mistakes as that - mistakes, not failures. Everyone makes mistakes (does or does not do say/do something that would be preferable/led to better consequences). Failure is a magnitude way above mistake. Your mileage may vary.

Regardless of my sig, I enjoy thoughtful discourse and honest disagreement with explanations for one's reasoning and I certainly am not going to post here and say Obi-Wan did not make mistakes. He did. A lot.

But it also seems unreasonable to say his POV is THE correct POV when he "admits" to his failures, or to say Obi-Wan's/others "failures" led to Anakin's fall, etc. when by that very reasoning, Anakin failed by not seeing how others around him were "failing him." Your point, all too often - and you may not mean it that way - lays the blame for Anakin's fall on everyone else with no blame attaching to himself.

Because Jedi are occasionally prone to such visions, and at the very least it bore investigation. It would hardly have taken long to send a lone Jedi to check in with Watto. But its not how the Jedi do things; he was expected to put her out of his mind. She was just another suffering slave in troubled galaxy, and thus in ten years it never occurred to go and free her to anyone from TPM aside from Anakin. I count Padme in that, too, and its only bad storytelling that Anakin never broached it. The price of a aging house slave was low enough that a moisture farmer could free her, what was a wealthy Senators excuse? Or the Jedi Order?

Obi-Wan knew they concerned his mother, and that they were keeping him from sleeping soundly for some time, so that implies some knowledge at least. We have no reason to believe he hadn't confided in Obi-Wan, quite the contrary since his master knew the subject of the dreams.

The difference between mistakes and failures depends on the situation, context, and there is nothing stopping them from being one and the same. If I walk into a table because i'm looking at the TV, it was a mistake to do so obviously, but i also failed to pay due attention. If I can see a friend is in real emotional pain, and I either say something callus or ignore it, then i'm failing in my duty as a friend. In the context of Anakin's teaching and support, it was a mistake to take him on as an apprentice if they were not ready or able to teach an older (and emotionally attached and vulnerable) child, and a failure to do right by him when they took on the responsibility anyway. However, I don't at all believe the blame lays at everyone else's feet in the least. Just that a great deal does. Mostly the Jedi Council as opposed to Obi-Wan, but he is not faultless either.

Anakin made his own mistakes, its just that a great many of them were because he felt trapped, and harried. The ROTS novel goes into it more deeply. He never has time to simply stop, think, and take stock. Everything is hitting him rapidfire. This doesn't negate the fact he slaughtered younglings for the sake of his own children, putting their lives above those of the little Jedi, the lives of all the Jedi in the temple for his wifes, and nor does it make the fact he choked Padme right. Far from it. These are his crimes, and Obi-Wan and the Jedi should not be punished for them, these are all on Anakin. But i feel as self-appointed paragons of justice and compassion, they do carry a moral penalty.

Because of what they claim to be and stand for, i hold them to a higher standard than say Han Solo or Wedge Antillles. You don't get to claim all that the Jedi claim to embody, and then get a free pass for mistakes that concern the very virtues you claim to embody.

A very good example of their hubris is believing that Dooku couldn't possibly be a bad guy, because he was once a Jedi, and Jedi are above such things. Jocasta Nu and her discussion with Obi-Wan about the perfectly perfect Jedi Archives, that only the unbrainwashed younglings and Yoda realise could have had things deleted from it. Most Jedi being unattached, yet select bases being allowed to have multiple wives, instead of just donating genetic material. The effective Jedi Grand Master develops and teaches an extension of a lightsaber style that can take Jedi who use it close to the dark side, and rather than putting it away as dangerous, teaches it to both his padawan and other Jedi.

The thing is, Anakin did see how people were failing him, thus why he felt so trapped. He couldn't tell the council about Padme; they would never have understood. Right up until the scene in the office, Mace Windu had never trusted Anakin, and made it bluntly clear to him - noting he would have earned his trust if that had gone the way Windu wanted. Rather than, say, over a decade of being a loyal and dedicated Jedi. As pointed out in this thread, there is also the fact that the Council and Obi-Wan both broke his trust by keeping him in the dark about Obi-Wan going undercover, leading him to almost killing his brother/father figure (whether or not there was good reason to not tell him, at least before the funeral) and then wrongly accusing Ahsoka and almost letting her be put to death, driving her from the order. Yoda telling an obviously strained, weary and on the verge of breaking down young Knight the typical clinical response, rather than even trying to dig deeper or offer practical advice. Padme herself kept insisting she would be fine, rather than even humoring him, and seeking at least a medical checkup that might have eased his mind. Only one person seemed sympathetic and to be offering a way out... Palpatine. And he still tried to have him arrested first, and found Mace acting as un-Jedi like as he had with Dooku, which had likely been praying on his mind. It was a mess.

Again, this doesn't excuse his crimes, nothing could, but he is a tragic (if not sympathetic) villain as opposed to an outright villain like Palpatine.

On that same vein, my point of view is that I understand Obi-Wan made mistakes, and they were understandable, but the failures were still that. Same for the Jedi Council. Do you believe they failed Ahsoka in season 5? Or that it was just a mistake, and thus negates the moral weight of what it cost Ahsoka? It's the same way for Anakin. He never really had a chance, because George Lucas wrote it that way. It in no way makes Obi-Wan less of a hero or admirable Jedi, he is just a tragic hero to Anakin's tragic villain.

The ironic thing is that Obi-Wan and Yoda are still making mistakes in the OT. Padme told Obi-Want hat there was still good in Vader; and despite his heartfelt 'I did fail you Anakin, I did fail you.' Luke has to come to the conclusion that there is still good in him by himself, and by not listening to the older Jedi's advice. As has been pointed out, both seemed very much in favor of just killing Vader and Palpatine.

I love Anakin (and Vader) as a character not because I excuse his faults, but despite and even because of them, as they make him a complex character. And I love Obi-Wan as a character precisely for the same reason; despite being the 'Negotiator' and foremost master of Soresu in the Jedi Order, Hero on many worlds, and accomplished Jedi Master and Council member... at heart he is still that little boy that had a childish rivalry with Bruck, a stranged love with Siri (and now half a dozen other women in the EU), and the still human.

Obviously I love Anakin as much as you do, my user name should indicate that, and I think we usually agree when we discuss him in the PT forum. I also used to feel the same way you do about the Jedi and their teaching methods. I've worked in schools for most of my adult life and to me, individualizing instruction for each student is basic, as not everyone learns the same way.

But here's what I was missing when I made that argument: the Jedi Order is not a public school. In public school, the fact that students all come from different backgrounds and have different life experiences and learning styles and abilities, forms part of the basic foundation upon which we build our instruction. For a thousand years or so, the Jedi Order has based the foundation of its instruction on exactly the opposite--it took measures to ensure that its initiates didn't bring the same baggage to the table that the rest of us have by only accepting infants too young to remember their origins and raising them in the Temple.

It's not that the Jedi weren't willing to help Anakin, but they had no clue how to do it or where to begin. None of the living Jedi, not even Yoda, had ever dealt with a 19-year-old kid who thought about his mother that much. I doubt they had ever dealt with anyone whose emotions were as intense as Anakin's either; I don't think most people in our world are that intense, even though it's allowed here.

I've taught high school before but put me in front of a calculus classroom with a textbook for an hour and I doubt the students would leave knowing any more than they did when the hour began. That doesn't make me a bad person, just someone who can't teach what she doesn't know. The Jedi did not know how to teach Anakin how to let go of his mother or not fall for Padme because they had never had to do it; those principles were always ingrained in the Jedi initiate at a much younger age.

From Anakin's end, he could have tried a little bit harder to recognize that the entire galaxy didn't revolve around him and how he felt, he could have tried a little emotional self-control, but he had Palpatine whispering in his ear that dammit, his feelings were important and made him special.

I started an Anakin discussion thread on the temp boards and ended up shutting it down because it devolved into "How do the Jedi suck? Let me count the ways..." Which was sad because it's not necessary to hate the Jedi in order to like Anakin.