... And I know that lots of the families of troops who have died in the war definitely agree.

I don't think that is any different than with ANY President that has started a war and sent sons and daughters, and they were killed. It is understandable.

I am sure though, there are also people who STILL support this war even thought they lost a family member. War is horrible whether a family member is killed or not. Principles should not change just because someone has a personal stake in it. If one is against it for the cause, then be against it. But to be against it because one or someone one loves may get killed is selfish. There are many that gave their lives for this country, and if they had that attitude, no one would enjoy the freedoms of living here today.

I am sure there are families that have loved ones killed in a war that know the war was necessary, so they don't hate the President for starting it.

It is a matter of opinion whether this war was necessary, or if it was blood for oil. Either way, it does seem there needs to be an end in sight. I too, am tired of hearing of so many of my friends are getting shipped out.

If one is against it for the cause, then be against it. But to be against it because one or someone one loves may get killed is selfish.

the beauty of a democracy, though, is that everyone should vote for their own selfish interests. that's where the whole "majority rule" thing kicks in. every citizen has a voice and a say in making the future better for himself/herself. if you can't convince yourself to vote for what you want, then why vote at all?

_________________i'll never be a bowie, i'll never be an eno. i'll only ever be a gary numan.

If one is against it for the cause, then be against it. But to be against it because one or someone one loves may get killed is selfish.

the beauty of a democracy, though, is that everyone should vote for their own selfish interests. that's where the whole "majority rule" thing kicks in. every citizen has a voice and a say in making the future better for himself/herself. if you can't convince yourself to vote for what you want, then why vote at all?

Agree.

What I am talking about is believing military action should be taken, but then saying, 'but only if I or any member of my family doesn't have to do it".

here are service records of many prominent republicans, some who served, many who didn't:

* Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve. "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
* House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
* Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
* Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve
* Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve.
* Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.

* GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
* VP Cheney - several deferments , the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service")
* Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve; received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

* Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve.

* Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve, too busy being a Republican.

* Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve
* Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
* "B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
* Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four student deferments

* Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.
* Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php * Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm * Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations http://www.house.gov/cunningham/about_d ... #Biography * Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986
* Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...")
* Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.
* Senator Don Nickles, R-OK - Oklahoma - Biography does not list military service. However, CNN lists Army National Guard service 1970-1976.
* Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve
* Senator Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve
* Senator Tim Hutchison, R-AR - did not serve
* Rep. Christopher Cox, R-CA, fifth-ranking Republican in Congress - did not serve.
* Representative Saxby Chambliss, Georgia - did not serve, had a "bad knee" (yet somehow feels he has a right to attack Max Cleland's patriotism)
* Former Representative JC Watts - did not serve
* Jack Kemp, did not serve (was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years)
* Former Vice President Dan Quayle, avoided Vietnam service, got a slot in the journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard when the unit was at 150% capacity (at least he showed up for his duty, unlike GW)
* Eliot Abrams, did not serve (however, played a key role in subverting democracy in South America)
* Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve
* Former Representative Vin Weber, did not serve
* Richard Perle, did not serve (is the current bloodshed in the Middle East a direct result of his treasonous meddling in Clinton Administrstion foreign policy?)
* Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy - did not serve.
* Rudy Giuliani, did not serve
* Michael Bloomberg, did not serve
* George Pataki, did not serve
* Spencer Abraham, did not serve
* John Engler, did not serve
* Lindsey Graham (R-SC) - website used to claim service as a "Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm veteran." A current biographical website makes no such claim. In reality, was a National Guard lawyer who never left South Carolina during the Gulf War.
* Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-CA, did not serve
* Rep. Darrell Issa, R-CA/49th, there were some problems with his service.
* Rep. John M. McHugh, R-NY - avoided the draft, did not serve
* Arnold Schwarzenegger, CA Republican Governor - went AWOL from his Austrian army base to enter a bodybuilding competition

* George Herbert Walker Bush, pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese; was lone survivor out of airplane .
* Tom Ridge, Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam
* Representative Sam R. Johnson, combat missions in both Korea and Vietnam, POW in Hanoi from April 1966 to February 1973
(don't ever run for president Sam, they'll spread rumors that you're crazy)
* Senator Ted Stevens, R-AK, WW II pilot, two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Air Medals, and the Yuan Hai medal awarded by the Republic of China.
* Sen. John Warner, R-VA - Served in the Navy during WWII as a RM3
* Congresswoman Heather Wilson, R-NM, served in the Air Force 1978-1989
* Former President Gerald Ford, served in the Navy, WWII
* Former Senator Strom Thurmond - apparently believes, along with Trent Lott, that America should have been a segregated society. Still, he served.

I think anyone that has been proven to avoid the draft shouldn't even be allowed a government job. But I am looking at these sad choices and trying to pick the lesser of the evils, or the one that more agrees with my stand on major issues.

I bet ya there is a similar list for the Dems out there. What you are showing is simply politics. That is the sad part of all this, some believe that Kerry is somehow above all this shit. He didn't get to where he is without "side-stepping a few land mines".

Soooo, are there are NO Dems that have NOT served??? OR did you just not take the time to find them?

Avoiding serving, is a bunch of shit. I don't care if you are a Dem or Rep. Many in that list just says "did not serve". What does that mean? Is it simply that they never have ever joined in the armed forces? I don't think that should be a requirement to be a politician. It should be a plus if they have a military background. I was in the armed forces, though not during a war. Does that mean I should not have a say in whether we should go to war or not?

What I said was,

Quote:

"What I am talking about is believing military action should be taken, but then saying, 'but only if I or any member of my family doesn't have to do it".

How does any of that relate? "Did not serve" does not in any way prove they are backing the war because they don't have a family member going, or that they would not back the war if they did. How does that prove that? Do you know for sure that all the reps don't have a family member in Iraq?

Come to think of it, wasn't there a Rep senator that got called to active duty and went?

what i'm saying is if you're going to vote for people who are so fervent in their desire to wage war - war that will be fought by you, your brothers and sisters, your children, etc. - perhaps if their own dedication to military service matched up to what they ask of you, they'd be more credible.

i realize i didn't list any democrats, and yes, that may be dirty pool of me. however, they are the majority party that controls the white house and both houses of congress, so they control the nation's agenda. i know there are plenty of lefties who didn't serve (like, say, bill clinton). there are plenty that did (like, say, john kerry). but usually the people who DID serve (on both sides of the aisle like republicans John McCain and Chuck Hagel) aren't the ones who are overeager to put you and your family in harm's way for nebulous reasons.

theoretical question: if all of the people i just listed in my last post were eligible to fight in iraq today, how many of them do you think would volunteer? how many of them right now would urge their children to go fight because they believe the war to be just?

_________________i'll never be a bowie, i'll never be an eno. i'll only ever be a gary numan.

I think a good backer for Denver's post would be the fact that only one person in Congress has a child enlisted in the military.

If they all had children enlisted in the military, I wonder how eager they would be to go to war.

I am sure that would make a difference. But as hard as it is, it really shouldn't. The USA should have to do what they feel they have to do, regardless whether their children are the ones fighting. But it would probably cut back on any military action completely un-necessary, which is how it how it should be right now anyhow.

Both ways makes my original point. The decision to go to war should be based on the necessity, not on if we, or we have a family member who will be doing the fighting.

Unless they know something we don't, I think this war is overdue to see it's conclusion. Hand the place over to the new government and bring our guys home.