I’ll take down the statue myself if it means I will no longer have to read drivel like this.Quote:

rescuelife wrote:Having visited Krakow and Warsaw once each, one of the most striking things during my visit was the massive amount of swastikas littered throughout each city. Some old, some new, it was crazy seeing people casually walking by them. Then you go to Auschwitz/Birkenau or Majdanek and there is a town literally right up until the Camp gates (and yes- those towns were there during WWII).

It's hilarious watching people throw global historical facts at Yvonne and *every single time* she responds with some decades-old provincial local bullshit that nobody cares about. Yvonne's world doesn't extend past whatever Jersey City's borders were in 1972. Stop rewarding her with responses, even if it's high entertainment.

Having visited Krakow and Warsaw once each, one of the most striking things during my visit was the massive amount of swastikas littered throughout each city. Some old, some new, it was crazy seeing people casually walking by them. Then you go to Auschwitz/Birkenau or Majdanek and there is a town literally right up until the Camp gates (and yes- those towns were there during WWII).

History and creating historical district designation are different. I was the leading person in the 1970s asking to make Van Vorst Park a historical designation and I regret it. Homeowners who lived there for a long time, lost their homes. People come before homes, plain and simple. But that is separate from protecting JC's history. For the record, I pushed for historical designation, along with my husband, aided with the late Joe Duffy and the late J. Owen Grundy. We did this because Colgate was not a good neighbor, they would buy properties for the sole purpose of knocking them down. They just destroyed brownstones for no reason. It is the reason, Paulus Hook has newer housing than other parts of downtown, Colgate destroyed history.

Actually, when I canvass for signature, the public already knows the issue. For those who don't I show them the ordinance which is attached. As I mentioned before, there is a difference between renaming a street that has historical significance history in JC and a statue that did not replace an American monument. In 2010, JC did not mark the 350 anniversary of the founding of this city. I think that is wrong. Here is another example, Councilman Boggiano, as an activist before he won his office, try to get a piece of land has a historic site for a park. Historic battles took place there. Instead, the city turned the property over to a private developer. So, yes, Councilman Boggiano is correct and there are other sites in JC that has historic significant. Another example, the city wants to turn over the Apple Tree House to EDC, but for years, it was promise as a cultural site. I could go on to the lost history in this city but it is lost to many people here because the city does not value its own history.

Yvonne wrote:Your comments Frank M are truly out of context, I have been attending council meetings since the 1970s...

I thought my questions were relevant, but if you’re telling me otherwise, I apologize for misunderstanding.

But to answer your own question, no, I do not want to see foreign memorials to American soldiers removed. However, I would not be opposed should a local government want to MOVE one, assuming it’s not a cemetery. If there was a clear goal in mind that would benefit the public good, who am I to protest? Likewise, who is Mr. Karczewski, and why would you take his side? Was it out of conviction or convenience?

When you canvassed for signatures, did you reveal to anyone that you believe, “Monuments should be about events in America, not another country.” Those were your words and I’m not taking them out of context, but of course you’re welcome to change your mind, take them back, and apologize for misspeaking.

Your comments Frank M are truly out of context, I have been attending council meetings since the 1970s, in the time period, I have seen the city rename streets which had significant importance to Jersey City. An example is Henderson Street which became Marin Blvd. Henderson were actually two brothers that had an award winning factory in Paulus Hook, one of them was also a mayor of JC. Newer streets should have been named for ethnic groups. Looking at Newport, you have silly names that refer to garages. I have been all over JC getting signatures. The easier group to sign these petitions were African Americans. Many are war veterans and are appalled that any war memorial would be move. In JC, many people died in both the First and Second World Wars from JC, in fact there was a plaque somewhere near Mercer called "Old Glory" due to the number of JC people who died in war. They are buried in Europe and there are memorials attributed to them in Europe. Do we want those memorials remove for a land grab? I think not. Actually, the lost of that memorial on Mercer Street is the reason I said, we should honor American history, but that does not translate into approving in a land grab where Katyn sits on.

Yvonne wrote:Frank M, you do not go around insulting an ethnic group in Jersey City regardless of the group. Neither do you curse the Speak of the House in Poland. Fulop is an adult, it is time he grows up.

If that's your argument, how respectful were you toward the victims of the Katyn massacre, their families and their compatriots, when you dismissively stated that our memorials should only be concerned with events in America?

And when you came to the defense of Stanislaw Karczewski, do you know what you bought with that package? Do you approve of his work to censor dissent and sanitize history? How about his party's recent unconstitutional effort to purge their Supreme Court? Are you convinced that name-calling is a worse offense?

Yvonne wrote:Frank M, you do not go around insulting an ethnic group in Jersey City regardless of the group. Neither do you curse the Speak of the House in Poland. Fulop is an adult, it is time he grows up.

HAHAHAHAHA...so why do you keep supporting Trump? What a ridiculous waste of taxpayer resources...hopefully these stupid petitions get thrown out when they discover this was an astroturfing campaign and most signatures were not JC residents.

A bad grade for diplomacy but extra merit for deflection as Fulop successfully shifted the narrative away from the rampant power of developers in this city. We should be talking about how and why our public spaces are being shaped to benefit profiteers over those who live and work here.

I do however feel you are mistaken regarding individual collaborators as the amendment in question is aimed specifically at anyone who attributes the Polish Nation or State as being complicit in the holocaust.

""The legislation concerns only accusations of collective responsibility by the Polish Nation or Polish State for German Nazi Crimes," said spokeswoman Ma?gorzata Safianik of the Polish embassy in Washington. "It does not seek to deny nor does it apply towards charges of individual collaboration by Polish nationals during World War II.""

The point is moot because the damage is done, ordinary residents who oppose the removal of the statue now find themselves aligned with Polish Nationalists, anti-semites and Twitter shit stains like Jack Posobiec. The opposite is also true, as per your assertion - "I wouldn’t roll over for Poland’s Stanislaw Karczewski, nor should you." the removal of the statue can now be framed as an heroic blow against Nationalism and not the craven capitulation to Mike DeMarcos deep pockets.

Given the groundswell of opposition against the statue's removal it would be foolish of the council to not now overturn the ordinance. Fulop loyalists among them must realize that forcing a referendum would be a complete waste of money with nothing but the prospect of humiliating defeat at the end of it.

The statue is bizarrely macabre and, yes, jarring but it is uniquely ours. A testament as much to this city's recent political history as the tragedy that inspired it and now, in years to come, a defiant reminder that we are not an homogenous extension of Battery Park.

The statue stays.

[/quote]

The Mayor probably gets a bad grade for his diplomacy, but reacting to button-pushing is a challenge for all of us. I wouldn’t roll over for Poland’s Stanislaw Karczewski, nor should you.

Thanks in large part to Karczewski’s efforts, the Polish government enacted a law making it a crime to suggest complicity in any events of the Holocaust on behalf of any of the Polish people or on any part of their government. Violators can be fined or jailed for up to three years.

If you’re willing to believe that NOT ONE SOUL in Poland was complicit IN ANY WAY, of saving their own life by turning on their neighbors, you’re free to do so, but that would be naive. Remember, there were Americans colluding with our enemies, and they weren’t even in danger. That doesn’t necessarily cast aspersions on either of our nations, but facts are facts, and they should not be suppressed.

As a compromise, would you believe that maybe ONE person in all of Poland—just one—aided the Nazis? If so, it’s important to understand that it would be illegal in Poland to speak about it, even if you have proof. Somebody like you, a person confident enough to stand at a podium in City Hall and speak her mind—exercising her freedom of speech—could go to jail for talking about it. Even if she was wrong, does that seem right to you?

As far as the memorial goes, it is uniquely jarring, and by its own virtues, belongs in a venue where it has the potential to be more appropriately contemplated. [/quote]

The Mayor probably gets a bad grade for his diplomacy, but reacting to button-pushing is a challenge for all of us. I wouldn’t roll over for Poland’s Stanislaw Karczewski, nor should you.

Thanks in large part to Karczewski’s efforts, the Polish government enacted a law making it a crime to suggest complicity in any events of the Holocaust on behalf of any of the Polish people or on any part of their government. Violators can be fined or jailed for up to three years.

If you’re willing to believe that NOT ONE SOUL in Poland was complicit IN ANY WAY, of saving their own life by turning on their neighbors, you’re free to do so, but that would be naive. Remember, there were Americans colluding with our enemies, and they weren’t even in danger. That doesn’t necessarily cast aspersions on either of our nations, but facts are facts, and they should not be suppressed.

As a compromise, would you believe that maybe ONE person in all of Poland—just one—aided the Nazis? If so, it’s important to understand that it would be illegal in Poland to speak about it, even if you have proof. Somebody like you, a person confident enough to stand at a podium in City Hall and speak her mind—exercising her freedom of speech—could go to jail for talking about it. Even if she was wrong, does that seem right to you?

As far as the memorial goes, it is uniquely jarring, and by its own virtues, belongs in a venue where it has the potential to be more appropriately contemplated.

I collected petitions because I caught Mayor Fulop's message on the radio. Fulop blamed the Polish government for being with the Nazi Germany. That is an absolute lie, Poland was invaded by Nazi Germany in 1939, yet the mayor of JC decided to attack an ethnic group. Fulop also called the speak of the house in Poland an anti-Semite. I have disagree with many mayors on policies but none except Fulop attack an ethnic group, what a shame. On top of that, this monument was actually the effort of the late Councilman Jamie Vazquez. The Councilman listened to this Hamilton Park community who wanted this statue. So, it is also a tribute to him as well.

Yvonne wrote:The people of JC handed in 10,280 names on a petition to keep the Katyn monument where it is, they needed 6,714. Now the city clerk will verify if these are JC voters. These petitions were signed by non-Polish residents. These petitions were collected in less than 20 days. If everything is OK, it will go on a ballot where the people will vote on this issue.

Yet another bs culture war issue that will waste thousands in city funds so "fiscal watchdog" Yvonne can get another chance to make the mayor look bad. Just like moving of the municipal election, this disgusting woman has no real concern for the tax payer, only her mission to turn JC into Birmingham.

JERSEY CITY — The question of whether Jersey City's Katyn monument is moved may soon be in the hands of voters.

A group opposed to moving the statue from its Exchange Place home delivered a petition to City Clerk Robert Byrne on Tuesday seeking to overturn a June 13 ordinance that authorized moving the monument one block south. The petition has over 10,000 signatures, the group said.

The people of JC handed in 10,280 names on a petition to keep the Katyn monument where it is, they needed 6,714. Now the city clerk will verify if these are JC voters. These petitions were signed by non-Polish residents. These petitions were collected in less than 20 days. If everything is OK, it will go on a ballot where the people will vote on this issue.

So things start to get loopy at Jersey City Council meetings once they go beyond midnight.

At the council's Wednesday night session, the body's nine members sat for a near record nine-hour session, just over six hours of that on a single topic: the planned relocation of the Exchange Place monument to the 1940 Katyn massacre.

JERSEY CITY – Pleas by scores of Polish-Americans and others not to relocate a monument to thousands of Poles massacred by the Soviet Union during World War II fell largely on deaf ears at the June 13 council meeting as the City Council adopted an ordinance that would allow the statute to be relocated one block south to York Street.

oreoz wrote:So is it safe to assume you've changed your mind and now want the monument to stay? Interesting to say the least. I approve of gaining a deeper understanding of people's feelings towards the monument, although I suspect the real reason is because you don't like Fulop and his handling of the situation made it easy for you to jump to the other side.

Personally - I like it where it is. Presumably, it'll be good where it's going also. The way it was handled was stupid, and I dislike even more the fact that some developer with money declares that he doesn't like it and it has to move (does he own the space? thought it was public), but it seems like the end result is a pretty decent compromise. Too bad it had to happen so..shadily.

What's with the soft -peddling of this issue here ? Whether one likes or dislikes Fulop is Irrelevant !!!

Personally - I find it is somewhat difficult to *Like* someone who is insulting to the taxpaying public & widely dismissive of the Real needs of All JC Citizens, Over-Reaching in his *Governing bwo Twitter announcements & E.O.s,, all the while promoting divisiveness with his assignments of the 'Hater' label to any/all [most of who have solid rationale 4 said opposition] who disagree with his opinion/POV.

What IS Relevant however is Exactly what U have stated : "the fact that some developer with money declares that he doesn't like it and it has to move"

There has yet to be an End Result, as there are Legal proceedings pending before the court to be adjudicated, Definitions of Empowered parties to any agreement to be resolved. and most importantly a Huge matter of Engineering studies /Cost Analysis plus the ability to fund such an undertaking,, aka. WHOIS gonna pay for all of this ??

This Fulop Administration has denied the most basic of Needs in our City's Communities in favor of Feel-Good projects, Staffing expenditures, and keeping Lawyers flush with No-Bid Contracts to Defend HIS Poor Policy Decisions. This trajectory is Simply NOT Sustainable!

Ur stmt. : "Too Bad... " referring to Shady Backroom Self-Dealings, that you think are a Done Deal, will be prove to be fatefully problematic [and precedent setting]

So is it safe to assume you've changed your mind and now want the monument to stay? Interesting to say the least. I approve of gaining a deeper understanding of people's feelings towards the monument, although I suspect the real reason is because you don't like Fulop and his handling of the situation made it easy for you to jump to the other side.

Personally - I like it where it is. Presumably, it'll be good where it's going also. The way it was handled was stupid, and I dislike even more the fact that some developer with money declares that he doesn't like it and it has to move (does he own the space? thought it was public), but it seems like the end result is a pretty decent compromise. Too bad it had to happen so..shadily.

The mayor does not have the legal authority to close down streets unless there is an emergency which is temporary. Street closing comes under the jurdication of the city council, it does not come under the authority of executive privilege. I mentioned earlier that Fulop used executive privilege when he stopped demolitions. There was a court case but it was dropped. Fulop knew Judge Bariso would say he had no authority. So he dropped the challenge. The city council cleaned up his mess by doing the legislation on demolition. The city council also cleaned up his mess by executing legislation on street closing after the fact.

..........This is a problem that Fulop, he did not reach out to the community when he did the demolition nor closed Newark Avenue for the mall. Fulop has abused the executive privilege. The Faulkner Act is limited as to his executive privilege. Only the city council can create laws that affect the public such as closing streets, unless there is an emergency or stop demolition. Fulop withdrew his executive privilege when it came before Judge Bariso so the case was dropped. I am sure the judge would have ruled his executive privilege as not valid. Fulop is wrong for not reaching out and making a decision with community input..

Gee wasn't the creation of the Newark Avenue Plaza a long drawn out process with a trial period of 3 months and then community meetings to gather input if it should be made permanent?

8/19/2014 JJ: “Creating the plaza – which is on a nearly three-month test run – met with some resistance from at least one business owner and a member of the City Council, but it won rave reviews from pedestrians and cyclists hanging out there today.”

I really hate to revive this thread but came across this today... absolutely hysterical the way all the Jersey City Local Names are pronounced incorrectly and somehow (at least to my untrained ear) the Polish names are pronounced flawlessly... LOL

asny10011 wrote:I think Fulop should be accountable to the people of Jersey City and do what is best for the development of the area. If it means moving a statue, i am ok with it. I am surprised at the comments directed against him - especially from those who do not even live in jersey city!

Here is the problem - the monument was not created by the city as with other monuments, it was done with private money. Fulop did not reach out to the people who are still active in promoting Katyn. This is a problem that Fulop, he did not reach out to the community when he did the demolition nor closed Newark Avenue for the mall. Fulop has abused the executive privilege. The Faulkner Act is limited as to his executive privilege. Only the city council can create laws that affect the public such as closing streets, unless there is an emergency or stop demolition. Fulop withdrew his executive privilege when it came before Judge Bariso so the case was dropped. I am sure the judge would have ruled his executive privilege as not valid. Fulop is wrong for not reaching out and making a decision with community input..

I think Fulop should be accountable to the people of Jersey City and do what is best for the development of the area. If it means moving a statue, i am ok with it. I am surprised at the comments directed against him - especially from those who do not even live in jersey city!

I wonder what Fulop's comment would be if someone removed the Holocaust monument in Liberty State Park and placed in another area not as nice? I think his comment would make Boggiano's comment look like child's play.

JERSEY CITY — Polish President Andrzej Duda stopped at Exchange Place on Wednesday as Jersey City and the region's Polish community remained locked in a fight over the city's plan to relocate the Katyn monument.