Coelacanth:If they had kept that one scene in, then Jar Jar would've made some sense.

Honestly, him standing up to introduce the legislation that activated the villain's trap card was in itself probably the high point of the second movie for me. I mean, it causes the trilogy to transition from "stupid people have whacky hijinks, but there's no harm done and it's all for the best" into stupid disregard for logic, reason and decorum suddenly having some pretty dire consequences.

Still by far the worst of the prequels, which were collectively basically disappointingly mediocre, but still a high point in that context.

I like Jar Jar.I liked the Gungans, and found their underwater society intriguing and wish it could have been revisited.I didn't like the racial aspects.They weren't the only ones to suffer negative racial stereotyping.

I also thought having anakin act like an actual kid instead of a 70 year old in a 10 year old's body was fresh. That just isn't done, in American movies. All little kids have to be smarter and wiser than adults. Anakin acting like a real child was jarring, wasn't it?

I believe the problems with the pre-trilogy had to do with lack of coherent story and dismissal/disrespect of two decades worth fan fiction and extended universe canon for no other reason than .... I don't know. These movies should never have had Star wars attached to them. They should have been a parallel universe type story, with different characters instead of nostalgia porn. If these three movies didn't have 'star wars' in front of them, they'd be better received in hindsight... kind of like if FFX-2, FF12 and FF13 -- and especially the movie -- didn't have Final Fantasy attached, they'd all be better received.

ExperianScaresCthulhu:I also thought having anakin act like an actual kid instead of a 70 year old in a 10 year old's body was fresh. That just isn't done, in American movies. All little kids have to be smarter and wiser than adults. Anakin acting like a real child was jarring, wasn't it?

It would've been more miraculous if they could've gotten Hayden Christensen to act.

ExperianScaresCthulhu:I also thought having anakin act like an actual kid instead of a 70 year old in a 10 year old's body was fresh. That just isn't done, in American movies. All little kids have to be smarter and wiser than adults. Anakin acting like a real child was jarring, wasn't it?

The problem wasn't Anakin acting like a child, it was Anakin acting like an unreasonably cherubic child. Even in the absence of context, a kid from the extreme end of a lower-class upbringing in the mob-owned neighborhood having no socially unacceptable habits whatsoever was enough to set off even and actual 10-year-old's fake-dar.

Add to that how the movie was promoted:

Come on, seriously... you literally promise us foreshadowing and we don't get a single hint of suppressed anger in the kid? Not some element of jealousy or controlling nature? Nothing?

Hell, I was overall a good kid from a middle-class neighborhood and at 10 years I had plenty of obvious aggression issues, and I didn't grow up to murder even one youngling.

Jim_Callahan:The problem wasn't Anakin acting like a child, it was Anakin acting like an unreasonably cherubic child. Even in the absence of context, a kid from the extreme end of a lower-class upbringing in the mob-owned neighborhood having no socially unacceptable habits whatsoever was enough to set off even and actual 10-year-old's fake-dar.

Add to that how the movie was promoted:

[www.moviegoods.com image 200x294]

Come on, seriously... you literally promise us foreshadowing and we don't get a single hint of suppressed anger in the kid? Not some element of jealousy or controlling nature? Nothing? Hell, I was overall a good kid from a middle-class neighborhood and at 10 years I had plenty of obvious aggression issues, and I didn't grow up to murder even one youngling.

Hadn't thought about that. You do raise some serious points. None of the other slave children (played by the Lucas moppets) did either, though. But you raise some serious points. Didn't have to be Hailey Eisenberg, just Haley Joel Osment. We did get a hint with older Anakin in Clone, when Shmi was killed.

Maybe a story with a kid who's happy go lucky because his life is good because his mother shields him from the realities of being a slave/lower class (some Life is Beautiful type shiat, or it's opposite where the kids are happy because all they know is slavery and degradation and this is just how the world is.. but the audience should be given more to chew on that the kids can't see), and ......the coming disillusionment with the social order, and being lied to by Palpatine and the others like Dooku about what they are planning to do to change things so that even poor kids can survive but come to find out Palpatine just wants power and the ability to oppress causing disillusionment but Anakin thinks it's too late and that's why he succumbs to the darkside and no matter how bad ass he is, we get shades of the first movie where Darth Vader -- for all his badassness -- is actually a lackey... and the emperor's whole thing is his need to control Darth out of some twisted paternal shiat coupled with fearful shiat and making Darth believe this was for the good of the Empire........ or I don't know.

But you're right. That movie poster was a hell of a thing to live up to, yes. And it didn't.

I liked the suggestion in the other thread, to make the shiat talked about in Phantom Menace backstory instead of a whole movie. I think Lucas was constrained by having to do three movies because that's what was expected of him; that, and being a slave to linear story telling.

Mentalpatient87:Can I get one for people who don't care for silly ideological labels?

Read it, you'll love it. Some of H. Beam Piper's stuff have been ripped off for decades by role-playing game companies and other writers. A million plagiarists can't be wrong. I'm pretty darn sure that Ewoks were based on Fuzzies (big difference is that the average reader cares about Fuzzies).

The prequels had no soul. They were clumsily overbearing train wrecks. With long boring action sequences in substitute of any depth or character detail. They come off as kids movies.He should never have made them.

SwissArmyGnome:I have said this before. Jar Jar Binks is not the worst thing in the prequels. He's not even the worst thing in that first movie. Let that sink in.

He was better acted, less irritating, and had more to do with the story than that damned Anakin kid, for one thing.

So much this. I don't harbor much hate toward Best. It takes a singular vision to make Ray Park, Ewan MacGregor and Liam Neeson painful to watch and that lies right at the bloated lap of Lucas himself.

Bagshot: What about the Ewoks? They were rubbish! You don't complain about them!Tim: Yeah, but Jar Jar Binks makes the Ewoks look like... farking Shaft!

That said, people who put the whole responsibility onto Jar Jar are simply looking for something to tag their general annoyance on. If the story and characters had been good, people would have overlooked Jar Jar.

farkeruk:Bagshot: What about the Ewoks? They were rubbish! You don't complain about them!Tim: Yeah, but Jar Jar Binks makes the Ewoks look like... farking Shaft!

That said, people who put the whole responsibility onto Jar Jar are simply looking for something to tag their general annoyance on. If the story and characters had been good, people would have overlooked Jar Jar.

If the movies had been good, Lucas could have claimed the right of prima notte with every SW geek out there for the rest of his life. Instead, when his vision was criticized, he chose to show contempt for the very people that built his empire. I'm not a fanboy, but I know bad editing, bad pacing, wooden acting, a poor script, and lazy direction when I see it. No George, no more of my money for you.

It's OK. From what I hear, he redeemed himself with Red Tails. Can't wait to see his next vision brought to the big screen!

ExperianScaresCthulhu:I liked the suggestion in the other thread, to make the shiat talked about in Phantom Menace backstory instead of a whole movie. I think Lucas was constrained by having to do three movies because that's what was expected of him; that, and being a slave to linear story telling.

The webcomic Darths and Droids accidentally patched up most of the glaringly bad stuff in the writing, albeit usually with tongue pretty firmly in cheek. The Anakin-is-a-little-angel thing was solved by turning the "mean kids pick on the poor little tyke" scene into a schoolyard fight that gets out of hand and ends in Anakin killing (albeit accidentally) the other guy. This is what motivates the rapid departure from Tattooine and results in leaving the mother behind, rather than the contrived nonsense that the actual movies used. That was all the movie needed, one hint of lost control.

Of course, the writing failure for little Anakin was kind of compounded by the acting failure for adult Anakin. Christiansen's decision to spit out every line like he was already a chaotic evil blood knight from his first minute on screen (when, you'll recall, he's a well-regarded padawan who is liked by everyone around him according to his told character) instead of at least trying to seem like a nice guy made the transition jarring and out of character even more than the bad writing.

I hate saying this, because it hurts as a fan, but star wars really wasn't all that good. Don't get me wrong, there hasn't really been anything made since it that's been all around better than what we got with the first 3 movies, but looking back the acting was fairly mediocre and the plot wasn't all that inspired and there was a lot of stuff that plain didn't make any senese.

Given the gap in years from then (and how heavily Lucas collaborated on the original movies, especially the second move, the Empire Strikes Back, which is easily the most superior movie of the entire lot) it's easy to see how once given free creative reign he could craft a bunch of stinkers.

I mean, fark it, George Lucas isn't really all that farking talented. He got lucky with one concept and then made a few other servicable movies. Have any of you seen the latest Indiana Jones movie? If that's not an argument for Lucas losing whatever few marbles he had as a writer to age and hubris, then I don't know what is.

brokenrecord:The prequels had no soul. They were clumsily overbearing train wrecks. With long boring action sequences in substitute of any depth or character detail. They come off as kids movies.He should never have made them.

It was shiatloads of CGI trying to cover up lazy film-making and horrible scripts.RedLetterMedia's reviews should be mandatory viewing to anyone who is still trying to convince himself that the prequels didn't suck.

Jim_Callahan:ExperianScaresCthulhu: I liked the suggestion in the other thread, to make the shiat talked about in Phantom Menace backstory instead of a whole movie. I think Lucas was constrained by having to do three movies because that's what was expected of him; that, and being a slave to linear story telling.

The webcomic Darths and Droids accidentally patched up most of the glaringly bad stuff in the writing, albeit usually with tongue pretty firmly in cheek. The Anakin-is-a-little-angel thing was solved by turning the "mean kids pick on the poor little tyke" scene into a schoolyard fight that gets out of hand and ends in Anakin killing (albeit accidentally) the other guy. This is what motivates the rapid departure from Tattooine and results in leaving the mother behind, rather than the contrived nonsense that the actual movies used. That was all the movie needed, one hint of lost control.

Of course, the writing failure for little Anakin was kind of compounded by the acting failure for adult Anakin. Christiansen's decision to spit out every line like he was already a chaotic evil blood knight from his first minute on screen (when, you'll recall, he's a well-regarded padawan who is liked by everyone around him according to his told character) instead of at least trying to seem like a nice guy made the transition jarring and out of character even more than the bad writing.

That's one of many problems. Anakin in Clones doesnt even vaguely resemble Anakin from TPM. His impatience and brooding angst are never adequately explained.

OregonVet:Then people would complain about how such an excellent swimmer wouldn't have just dove in the water.

Suspension of disbelief is much more believable when it's something in the audience's favor (like how Indiana Jones managed to stay on top of that sub for ~300 miles all the way to the island without being detected).

And by that point in the movie, the audience had had enough of Jar Jar's special brand of scenery-chewing.