Lately the women's divsion has been in a lackluster. WWE has so many opportunities to capitalize on a good story in the divsion, but they never seem to do so. Firstly the hair match at WM20, they could've capitalized on that but they dropped it, and now molly has become a jobber to every RAW diva. Victoria, well she is pathetic now, and i hope someone takes that belt from her. Gail has been ok lately, but still not over, and trish and lita are out of the divsion and well they are being more used than the womens divsion. Peronally i think soon the women's divsion is gonna disappear just like the cruiserweights. The only solution is to turn molly face, and get her to feud with trish to add some intereat to the divsion, cause victoria has been so boring, and well lita can't wrestle properly, nidia still learning same as gail, and jazz just need to saty as a supporting character cos she is too injury prone. What do you guys think? And please don't delete this post, cos you did that to the last two i sent, and i think it is very unfair.

I think that there is a real problem with the women's division in that most marks change the channel when the women come on, unless it's Trish. Or the women are somehow involved with the men.

Partly, it's the WWE's fault. Would it kill them to have a women's match be the ME for a free TV Raw? And they needed more well thought out gimmicks, but that requires more airtime and given the views of the marks that would mean lower ratings.

The harsh reality is that the women's division is always going to be looked at as 2nd tier. And with so many storylines they need to be running to keep it interesting. There just isn't enough time to focus on the women other than as part of a men storyline or a title match or bikini contests.

Originally posted by jjfcWould it kill them to have a women's match be the ME for a free TV Raw?

Who would stay tuned for that? Women's wreslting in America is viewed as nothing more than T&A, and I seriously doubt the WWE would be able to do anything to change that (or would even want to change those sentiments).

It wouldn't really hurt the division to maintain and cultivate existing relationships between the women and the men. Victoria and Steven could've maintained their relationship, and Jazz and Rodney Mack who are MARRIED, never interacted with each other. A guy like Val Venis can ride the porn gimmick with any diva (or two) he chooses. With the men involved, they can be standby valets that can add excitement to matches, adding a layer of interest. Plus, the storylines could be more intricate, booking the underneath elements of the women's division without having matches, because they too could be valets for the men.

Would it kill them to provide something even vaguely resembling "professional" commentary for the women? "Puppies, puppies, puppies", "buh gawd Jezebel", & blathering continuously about anything other than the actual match going on -- oh yeah, that sends a message of credibility. Start with that. We've heard Tazz call T&A matches more respectfully than JR & Lawler call the very best women's matches. Let's let Lawler & JR have a break during the women's matches, & let ... well, damn near anybody else other than them or Coach ... call the women's matches. Any of Ivory, Grisham, Al or Regal (he can juggle 2 agendas at once) would be an infinite improvement. Jeez, for that matter, give Fit Finley a mic!

Originally posted by emmaWould it kill them to provide something even vaguely resembling "professional" commentary for the women? "Puppies, puppies, puppies", "buh gawd Jezebel", & blathering continuously about anything other than the actual match going on -- oh yeah, that sends a message of credibility. Start with that. We've heard Tazz call T&A matches more respectfully than JR & Lawler call the very best women's matches. Let's let Lawler & JR have a break during the women's matches, & let ... well, damn near anybody else other than them or Coach ... call the women's matches. Any of Ivory, Grisham, Al or Regal (he can juggle 2 agendas at once) would be an infinite improvement. Jeez, for that matter, give Fit Finley a mic!

That'd be cool actually. Have Ivory and Fit or Al Snow do commentary for the women matches. I think it'd make the division seem more special. A little like how in WCW, Tenay would commentate the cruiserweight matches.

They don't do these things because 95% of the audience couldn't care less about having a viable womenn's division.

Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.

If most don't care about the women's division, then why go through the effort to try to make it viable in the first place, other than the T&A? I have to ask that, since it's up in the air.

After a quarter of a century on this planet, there's three things I know for sure...1)Ain't nothing like a Dirty Pair marathon on New Year's Eve. 2)I'd make a fine Mrs. HHH II. 3) I'd make an acceptable Mrs. Orton. 1400 reasons to luv me!

Originally posted by oldschoolheroThey don't do these things because 95% of the audience couldn't care less about having a viable womenn's division.

If they actually took time to make the division respectable, the audience would care. If they spent half the time they do trying to get a bunch of untalented hosses over as they did trying to make the women's division legit, it would be sucessful.

Problem is, they don't have the wrestlers to have a viable women's division. Molly & Jazz are the 2 best that they have, but Victoria, while improved, isn't anything special. Same for Trish. Lita is awful, and Nidia & Gail Kim aren't very good, either. You can put all the effort in that you want, but you need the personnel to make it work.

"If they actually took time to make the division respectable, the audience would care."

No they wouldn't. They've tried, and the fans still treat it as little more than glorified T&A. The American wrestling audience has always been predominantly male-oriented, and without sounding too patronising they don't watch to see high-quality technical women's wrestling when the men can take care of that area just fine. There's no point in wasting time and energy on trying to get over something that the fans are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into liking.

Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.

Spaceman Spiff pretty much made a good point. And while I'd like to see an improved women's division, Mollysclique...do you ever have ANYTHING to say about the men? They tend to do some pretty nifty stuff at times, or so I've heard.

Originally posted by oldschoolhero"If they actually took time to make the division respectable, the audience would care."

No they wouldn't. They've tried, and the fans still treat it as little more than glorified T&A.

Chicken / egg. The announcers make it perfectly clear that women's matches are nothing but T&A, & much of the audience follows that lead & treats them as such.

I've never seen them actually try to make the division respectable -- you may be referring to a time that I wasn't watching. But I personally have certainly never seen it.

Originally posted by oldschoolheroThe American wrestling audience has always been predominantly male-oriented, and without sounding too patronising they don't watch to see high-quality technical women's wrestling when the men can take care of that area just fine.

The (North) American wrestling audience wants to be entertained, whatever that means. There are plenty of male wrestlers who couldn't put on a high-quality technical wrestling match if their lives depended on it, but who are still totally over. Are you saying that the only options for the women are a) Chris Benoit / Kurt Angle technical wrestlers, or b) T&A ? No other options as "sports entertainers"? No, I'm sure that's not what you meant.

Originally posted by oldschoolheroThere's no point in wasting time and energy on trying to get over something that the fans are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into liking.

I'd say that "dragged kicking & screaming" is just a touch of hyperbole, wouldn't you? For a recent example, allow me to refer you to Trish/Nidia from Heat 5/30. At the beginning of the match, we had the standard "We want puppies" chant. (Thanks so much, Mr Lawler.) Didn't take very long before the crowd actually did get into the match. They had a decent amount of time, told a story, it was a good match, & the crowd was far from bored or disinterested.

Vince absolutely has "wasted time and energy" getting all sorts of things over that the fans weren't into. And he will continue to do so. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. That's an essential part of longevity in business -- if Vince only recycled the same old formula that's always worked, we would have all gotten bored to tears & wandered off by now.

Clearly, not everybody is interested in the same angles, plotlines, styles of work, etc. Among the things that Vince does very well is providing "something for everyone" to draw in the broadest possible audience overall. That's good business. I'm quite sure that there isn't a worker on the roster that *everybody* likes. Sounds like you (OSH) are never going to be interested in the women's division, & that's just fine. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a viable audience for it, if it were properly cultivated. I maintain that there definitely *is* an audience for it currently, in *spite* of how disrespectfully it's been handled, & that there are some pretty simple & straightforward things that could be done to grow that audience even more. Which is also good business.

What does not work is putting a concept out there, and sabotage-ing it at the same time. What is foolish on Vince's part is giving the women the air time, training, etc, & at the same time, letting Lawler & JR tell the audience that this is just worthless T&A crap. Which is precicely what they do every damn match they call.

Originally posted by Spaceman SpiffProblem is, they don't have the wrestlers to have a viable women's division. Molly & Jazz are the 2 best that they have, but Victoria, while improved, isn't anything special. Same for Trish. Lita is awful, and Nidia & Gail Kim aren't very good, either. You can put all the effort in that you want, but you need the personnel to make it work.

Oh, I totally agree. But to say that it is impossible for a legit women's division to exist that people take seriously is being ignorant. There are plenty of women wrestlers out there. If WWE is so concerned that ugly women won't be over, then hire women who are relatively pretty (because really, makeup can do wonders) that can wrestle.

Look at it this way: IWA Mid-South (Ian Rotten's promotion) has started a legitamite women's division. Fans come and see these women wrestle. They don't chant derogortory (sp?) things at these ladies: they respect them because they can wrestle. If some indy promotion's division can get respect, why couldn't WWE's, with the right tools?

Good post, Emma. You encapsulated almost exactly my position on the subject.

And I still believe that at it's best, a Women's Championship match can main event a RAW (Remember when Lita won the title from Steph McMahon?) if there was the proper build-up. Trish-Victoria was one such feud, where a gimmick match like a Steel Cage or Ladder Match could've had a main event blowoff. It CAN be done, but the E refuses to do it.

And, just for the record, Trish is special, because I could have just as easily dismiss her like I do Torrie, but she proved that she just doesn't want to get paid to stand around doing nothing important. Oh, and I do get the irony that the last time a sizable audience thought the women's title was worth a damn was in a Steph McMahon match.

(edited by Ringmistress on 7.6.04 1347)After a quarter of a century on this planet, there's three things I know for sure...1)Ain't nothing like a Dirty Pair marathon on New Year's Eve. 2)I'd make a fine Mrs. HHH II. 3) I'd make an acceptable Mrs. Orton. 1400 reasons to luv me!

I'd suggest also getting some good Joshi tapes, GAEA, early ARSION, AJW, so on and so forth. That's where I get my women wrestling love-on.

There was a rumor going around that Ayako Hamada, joshi superstar, very young, daughter of Gran Hamada, GREAT performer etc etc, was very interested in working for the WWE. She's a good looking person as well. But they were not interested.

Personally, looking at the way the cruisers are treated by the WWE, as well as womens wrestling, it's obvious to ME that they don't want these BETTER wrestlers (technicaly) to outshine the big guys. And I am sure a FEW of the heavyweights feel the same way and have no problem with the cruisers being ignored completely and being made into a mockery on Smackdown.