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Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove.

Talking Drum has one of the best grooves ever. Just start that bass line going and everyone will pick up on it.

The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"

^ Now that recently there had been a few mentions of Starless and Bible Black, ... come on - it is King Crimson's turn when it comes to grooving. Take the whole of that album; about 50% of it is grooving, improvisations here and there. Gees, this blues-rock fanatic is not gonna have a homework assignment; he is gonna have a freaking semester project to complete with our suggestions.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 28 2012 at 02:06

"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock

If I understand correctly what is prog, and I have a feeling for what grooves, then this just drowned me in an ocean of groovy jazzy funky progginess (starting around the 3:40min mark all the way to the end)

To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?

Edited by HolyMoly - October 28 2012 at 08:03

My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

Because some people want steady music and not necessarily something with lots of changes, surprises and disruptions. It's after all a party and not a focused listening session. I mentioned GG as some groovy prog but even that has a stop start quality that a lot of prog generally does. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with music that relies on the momentum of a steady groove either.

21st Century Schizoid ManPictures Of A CityCat FoodIndoor GamesLadies Of The RoadSailor's TaleEasy MoneyTalking DrumLark's Tongues In Aspic Part IILamentRedOne More Red NightmareProvidence (bass solo section)IndisciplineThela Hun GinjeetMatte Kudasai Frame By FrameSartori In TangierWaiting ManHeartbeatMan With An Open HeartThree With A Perfect Pair

Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove.

Talking Drum has one of the best grooves ever. Just start that bass line going and everyone will pick up on it.

In general prog does nog grove, but of course we can mention bands like Can, Magma and others that make up an exception. It is true that a strong emphasis on the rhythmical dimension of music can make it more easily acceptable for many peoples ears.

I don't think that groove and soul have anything to do with each other. I find grooves purposeful for dancing or just getting energized. Soul has nothing to do with that. Soul is about beauty.

This!

That said, of course prog can groove. A lot of good examples of that in this thread. Neelus, your friend is simply wrong! Go straight up to him and tell him that...or not, if you want to keep the friendship

If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions then Prog has as much soul as any other genre- perhaps more than some (Pop comes to mind here!).

From the melancholy of Talk Talks's Spirit of Eden, or the overwhelming sadness in Pain of Salvation's Remedy Lane to sheer joy in large swathes of Yes, Genesis , Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings.

I'm sure everyone has their own list, but for music to touch us, and move us is for it to have its most lasting effect. I can appreciate some music, enjoy it on an intellectual level, but if it doesn't move me I won't listen to it very often.

Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions ... .

OK, I'm pretty sure that we were not talking about the elements of soul in prog, so I don't know any other meaning of the word "soul" that we could have possibly been using in the ongoing discussion. If that blues-rock fanatic meant the elements of soul music, he would say that.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - October 28 2012 at 15:48

"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock

To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?

A lot of this also has to do with familiarity, with the artist as well as with the style. I actually did this once, and yes, it stopped almost everything. Popular so-called dance music from Disco onwards has never actually made me want to dance. That a groove is more than just a good beat is pertinent. For me, the whole band has to be adding to the groove for it to work - it is not just a matter of the rythym section laying it down. The lead instruments, including the vocals, can add to a good groove. But by groove, I do not mean just danceable. It's got to get my head and mind moving as well as my body. Two of my favorite grooves are sections found in extended suites - Echoes by Pink Floyd and Part II of Waves by Jade Warrior.

The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"

To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?

You can only dance to music that is completely uniform and predictable (unless you're really good at it or know the song beforehand). Very little prog music fulfills both criteria.

Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions ... .

OK, I'm pretty sure that we were not talking about the elements of soul in prog, so I don't know any other meaning of the word "soul" that we could have possibly been using in the ongoing discussion. If that blues-rock fanatic meant the elements of soul music, he would say that.

He's a blues rock fanatic, so what else would you expect? In all likelihood, let alone prog, he probably doesn't have time for mostly any European music forms.

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