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Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Originally Posted by megaprogman

To be fair, neither do corporations

I don't think it is an unrealistic attitude to have. Collectives founded on the principle of benefiting members of the group always want everybody else to take a hit for the United States, be they labor unions, corporations, or political parties.

Generally, the idea is you take the fewest hits possible and get the most benefits you can.

If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Originally Posted by Rassales

One fact that doesn't get mentioned in discussions like this is that the custom of continuing contract (the poor substitute for "tenure" that school teachers get) is actually part of their compensation. Without it they would have to be paid more. Job actions like strikes only happen under very specific circumstances, like when a contract runs out and another hasn't been negotiated. The difference, really, is that teacher bargain collectively rather than individually. It's much more disruptive to have to replace an entire staff than an individual--that gives those individuals power when they bargain collectively. You're saying they should not be able to make this choice?

Unions should always be allowed to strike, as long as the employers are always allowed to permanently replace them.

Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Originally Posted by Rassales

All true. I would hope that in a place like California, where tax receipts are remitted to the state and then redistributed, that the leveling I'm talking about would be more prevalent. But perhaps not.
Sure. I'm talking about when the teachers in particular subject and grade levels meet together to coordinate their curricula together so that they are determining TOGETHER what will be taught and how. They create these frameworks themselves and stick to them for a year, then reevaluate. This way, teachers are invested in what they're doing more than when the curriculum is handed to them, but they aren't each completely independent, reporting only to a department chair or principal.

This way, all the teachers can learn from the expertise of each other. They create a situation where students talk to each other about what they are learning, across classes, improving the school as a culture of learning. Sometimes teachers even collaborate across subjects, so student learn different aspects of the same topic in social studies and English, for example.

The key is collaboration between respected professionals rather than the imposition of a curriculum from an outside source.

I see now. We do that here in our school. Actually, it's our first year doing this. We get together every Wednesday to talk to other teachers, have meetings, and come up with collaborated lesson plans. I teach social science, the only teachers that I find myself able to collaborate with are English teachers. One of our aims are to establish essay writing skills. However, one of the problems that I ran into is the fact that I don't get students who are stratified by their writing skills, as with the English classes. Everyone who is taking American Lit. are at a certain level of reading and writing. But my students are not all taking American Lit. Some are English Learners, and some are taking lower level writing classes.

So far I think this is a great idea. I actually get to work with people outside of my department.

Originally Posted by UtahBill

Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

What do you define as well educated then? Most people in the USA do not have a college education, and teachers, at least in CA and other high standard places, have a four year degree and a teaching credential specific to their field. I would say that it is not debatable at all.

College degrees are way overrated and don't necessarily translate into teaching ability.

You could be the smartest person in the world and it wouldn't matter if you didn't know how to teach people. Unions serve to protect these incompetent teachers.

Two of the most well-paid teachers at my former high-school were both worthless. I could have done both their jobs at the same time in my sleep.

One was the driver's ed teacher I mentioned earlier and the other was a health teacher / physical ed teacher.

Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Originally Posted by Morality Games

Aren't they able to do that?

Employers are FORCED into collective bargaining with their employees should they decide to unionize, which means any contract the employer and union "agree" to is illegitimate. Often times, the contracts will stipulate the terms of employment so as to favor the union, and can you guess what most of them say about terminating an employee who is on strike?

This all derives from the Wagner Act, which is nothing more than government coercion on behalf of labor unions.

Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

I guess people can justify anything if they start discounting or minimalizing data. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Ethereal
College degrees are way overrated and don't necessarily translate into teaching ability.

You could be the smartest person in the world and it wouldn't matter if you didn't know how to teach people. Unions serve to protect these incompetent teachers.

Two of the most well-paid teachers at my former high-school were both worthless. I could have done both their jobs at the same time in my sleep.

One was the driver's ed teacher I mentioned earlier and the other was a health teacher / physical ed teacher.

Don't believe me? Check it out!

All you stated was "educated"... I am the first to state and/or admit that the two do not belong always belong together. Being able to "teach" is almost like an art. It is like those that understand psychology but could never counsel a person, and that is a great analogy... or a lawyer that knows the law but can't be a trial counsel. Guess what? There are those that can't counsel and do and those that can't practice law but do... nobody ever seems to bitch about them as much as they bitch about a few teachers that suck. Nope, we all just get tossed into the same bowl as what is wrong with education and the students and there lack of motivation coupled with poor paretning skills of today get a free pass. It is the PC move of the past 30 years. Blame the teacher or the institution when it is almost entirely the fault of the student and parent. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Too many people, even conservatives, have fallen for this. Liberals have broken down the family structure, and that of society and certain people get blamed instead... it really sucks, but oh well, all some of us can do is attempt to enlighten others. All of these stats and points are OFF point, the real point about education is personal responsibility of the students and family...

Last edited by Bodhisattva; 02-03-10 at 10:39 PM.

Originally Posted by Bucky

I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.