When I was young, nine in fact, and I began to believe in God, privately, secretly, I came to the conclusion that in all religions there were those who worshipped God and consequently were happy to meet with anyone else who did and love people and the world and tried to kind and good and those who worshipped their religion so the rules, and words, and rituals mattered more than the love and kindness and writing all religions as other paths up the mountain. The second group cause and the pain and suffering.

So in the name of ecumenicalism and peace and understanding, surely what this season is about more than anything - peace (or salaam, or shalom even), I will try to bring a seasonal themed verse a day.

Qu'ran 3:42 The angels said, "Oh Mary, God has chosen you and purified you. He had chosen you from among all women."

I'm beginning to think that the same applies to atheists. I've met some lovely humanists but there seems to be an increasingly vocal group in the British media that get a lot of attention that get away with impling - or outright saying- that all people of faith are stupid, mindless, unimaginative, dangerous idiots and all those who don't believe in God are rational and sane. This is just as closed minded and hurtful as the most dogmatic fundamentalist of any religion.

I think every group consists of human beings. And being human they say good and wise things. And hurtful and awful things. There's people who lean strongly to either the one or the other. I mean - just look at Vegetarian and Vegan people. Originally I think they have wonderful ideals. And a good deal of them will be lovely and tolerant. But by the time you start to *hate* meat-eaters and wish they were dead? That's just scary. And you can try it for just about any group you ever heard of. (Although admittedly, finding a good side to witch-hunters will be a rather hard job.)

That's all true, and I think we wer talking just about that - good and bad in all human beings - in another thread, but I think what I mean is those who have closed their minds, who are so certain that their way of being and/or believing is the only way that they lose sight of the universality of all humans.

You know, you are right about vegans and vegetarians - I started eating eggs again 12 years ago and meat 5 years ago - due to my health and some aquaintances have been quite cruel and judgemental, yet they know nothing of raising a hyperactive child alone with a disabling, exhausting neurological diesease.

People with closed minds are perhaps the ones who judge and hurt, maybe?

Yes, it's been on my mind a lot lately. (Yet again - keeps coming and going.) Fanatics? Yes, that's indeed really scary. Although I was surprised once, when talking to someone who I originally thought was beyond listening. And who eventually became a very reasonable person to talk to after a few weeks of listening and discussing her views. It was a lovely example of how wrong I am in my judgement once in a while.

I mean I even understand them to some extent. The way animals are treated to get what we want *is* wrong. But so are SO many other issues on this planet. I mean, just thinking about the way *people* are treated... :( - I'm all for trying to improve the planet. But I keep thinking that you'll never get anywhere if you hit someone in the face. And don't take the time to hear their reasons. I really am sorry they hurt you about it. :( People can be truly awful.

it seems every oterh day on the news her in the Uk there is some Dawkin inspired atheist calling religious people stupid and dangerous, or another news story of idiots who calls themselves masking their homophobia in their faith. As for the lack of distinction between genuine, peaceful Muslims and Islamists who are merely facists by another name, don't get me started! It reduces everything complex and meaningful, whatever the belief system to attacking people and promoting hatred. Ir breaks my heart, to be honest. We can never understand each other without mutual respect and dialogue.

I'n glad for your talking to that person. S/he must have been more open minded that you realised, or you were very convincing in your argument :)

In principle I would be a vegan, but I have health needs and limited energy and multiple allergies. I think anyone who starts from the idea of a moral high ground cannot hope to change a person's beliefs.

Yes, some people can be truely awful. I think those that cling to their principles or beliefs dogmatically, with little room for doubt or question, or compassion and respect for another's different beliefs are perhaps a little empty inside, desperately trying to fill the void.

Well the atheists might just be talking about the dangerous branches of religion though? I mean, I can't really imagine anyone minding a person enjoying being a member of a religious community or praying to God (or a god/gods, depending on their faith.) I know that there are days when I get truly fed of with "religious people". Meaning people who claim that they're Christians and then say something like "Jesus wouldn't have wanted rich people to give money to the poor." Uh yes. Congratulations on *that* interpretation of the scripture. -_- I get people who get tired of religion in general. It's not fair to tolerant and lovely religious people. But neither is all the hatred and fear some self-proclaimed people spread. :(

About two (or three?) years before we met she'd ended up in a sect and overtook their homophobic views. It took me some time and patience to undo the brainwashing. But it was worth it. I'm never sure if I influenced her too much. Several of my friends came out bi or gay after a while of talking to me. But I never try to influence anyone. I just think a lot of bi people don't dare to think that they might be bi.

I think generally "In dubio pro reo" is a good call. No matter what else you believe in, you should always allow people to speak. You can disagree, you can challenge someone's views. But not allowing people to hear their reasons and accept them if they ring true is awful.

Deciding that you're right no matter what other people think is always dangerous. I, once in a while, collect little snippets I find on the internet. I once found this bit commenting on a song. Several people were trying to interpret the song and this person said "You're all wrong. I think..." -_- No matter the topic. Telling people that they're wrong because you think something else is a highly unproductive way to discuss a matter. I mean I'll agree that a math teacher shouldn't discuss if 1+1=2 might not be changed to 1+1=3. But the moment things aren't clear (I can prove that 1+1 is 2 and not 3 by using items and *showing* that it's the way I claim.) and you *think* it might be like that, it's rather silly to proclaim the truth you decided is right.

If only that were true. A few months ago there was a TV documentary and the trailer tag ran for weeks with, 'now e know that only the weak and ignorant believe in a god or gods...' There is a disticnt lack of logic and philosophy in the media here in the Uk that I think doesn't happen in mainland Europe. things are ver simplistic and quite black/white in presentation. it's frustrating and seems to have got worse over the last ten years.

As a person of faith I would say that God was at work at the number of people coming out to yoru friend at the same time, to soften her heart and mind a little. Being bi and of faith only becomes a problem when you fall in love with someone of the same sex!

We can't influence anyone, just hope they can keep their minds open as we must try to keep ours open to. We can all be wrong!

In Classic Doctor Who there is a quote form the Doctor's old tutor from the Academy - 'Only in mathematics will we find truth and perfection' :)