The Birds, now occupying near you

I wonder if the Hitchcock estate and/or the current copyright holder might want a piece of this action? The whole green movement has gone occupy crazy lately, which I suppose is a reflection of the failure of the movement as they write “Modern environmentalism has failed”. So it seems the strategy now is “if you can’t beat ’em, sit on them until they are annoyed enough to do something about it”.

This was on local über green activist Dr. Mark Stemen’s Facebook page.

But it does give a view on the mindset. Like the last dark poster with the mask for the parking garage protest, these misguided kids think these sorts of images are attractive advertising. Maybe for Goths and Alfred Hitchcock fans, though I doubt the Hitchcock fans would stay long.

The strategy of Deep Green Resistance starts by acknowledging the dire circumstances that industrial civilization has created for life on this planet. And that these circumstances should be met with solutions that match the scale of the problems.

This is a vast undertaking but it needs to be said: it can be done. Industrial civilization can be stopped.

And as I read more, I find their view on climate:

Furthermore, as intense climate change takes over, ecological remediation through perennial polycultures and forest replanting will become impossible. The heat and drought will turn forests into net carbon emitters, as northern forests die from heat, pests, and disease, and then burn in continent-wide fires that will make early twenty-first century conflagrations look minor.5 Even intact pastures won’t survive the temperature extremes as carbon is literally baked out of remaining agricultural soils.

Resource wars between nuclear states will break out. War between the US and Russia is less likely than it was in the Cold War, but ascending superpowers like China will want their piece of the global resource pie. Nuclear powers such as India and Pakistan will be densely populated and ecologically precarious; climate change will dry up major rivers previously fed by melting glaciers, and hundreds of millions of people in South Asia will live bare meters above sea level. With few resources to equip and field a mechanized army or air force, nuclear strikes will seem an increasingly effective action for desperate states.

…

But if a runaway greenhouse effect could be avoided, many areas could be able to recover rapidly. A return to perennial polycultures, implemented by autonomous communities, could help reverse the greenhouse effect. The oceans would look better quickly, aided by a reduction in industrial fishing and the end of the synthetic fertilizer runoff that creates so many dead zones now.

I think they’ve been occupying a bong too long.

Goals
The ultimate goal of the primary resistance movement in this scenario is simply a living planet—a planet not just living, but in recovery, growing more alive and more diverse year after year. A planet on which humans live in equitable and sustainable communities without exploiting the planet or each other.

Given our current state of emergency, this translates into a more immediate goal, which is at the heart of this movement’s grand strategy: Goal 1: To disrupt and dismantle industrial civilization; to thereby remove the ability of the powerful to exploit the marginalized and destroy the planet.

This movement’s second goal both depends on and assists the first:Goal 2: To defend and rebuild just, sustainable, and autonomous human communities, and, as part of that, to assist in the recovery of the land.
To accomplish these goals requires several broad strategies involving large numbers of people in many different organizations, both aboveground and underground. The primary strategies needed in this theoretical scenario include the following:

Strategy A: Engage in direct militant actions against industrial infrastructure, especially energy infrastructure.Strategy B: Aid and participate in ongoing social and ecological justice struggles; promote equality and undermine exploitation by those in power.Strategy C: Defend the land and prevent the expansion of industrial logging, mining, construction, and so on, such that more intact land and species will remain when civilization does collapse.Strategy D: Build and mobilize resistance organizations that will support the above activities, including decentralized training, recruitment, logistical support, and so on.Strategy E: Rebuild a sustainable subsistence base for human societies (including perennial polycultures for food) and localized, democratic communities that uphold human rights.

It is sad these folks have become so brainwashed that they think the planet is dying and the only choice left is some sort of organized resistance. They have apparently just dismissed all of the good things that the ecological movement has produced, such as improving our air and water since the 60’s as if it never happened.

In the meantime, our own local “Occupy Chico” is having a “huge” impact.

Photo from KPAY-radio Matt Ray

This whole “occupy” thing is just a blip, and because it has no focus, nobody really pays much attention to it. When the next scheduled event comes up in city plaza, they’ll be asked to move, and they probably won’t, and then we’ll have the usual downward spiral for these sorts of things where the end game is “occupy jail”.

They should all go live on a farm with no electric, no tractors, no running water, no metal, no plastic, no man made fibers….. in Wisconsin, North Dakota or Montana for a few years and THEN make their decision on whether or not they really hate “Civilization”

A colon usually implies a follow-up!
;)
====================================

I’m guessing it was a video starring a Homer Simpson lookalike with a silly hat and a cheesy “I’m pretending to be a hip young person” smile who, by a curious coincidence, is also the curator of the GISS temperature record ??

I despise people like this, they sit on their useless arses all day pontificating about things they neither understand nor comprehend. They are so stupid that they try to bring down the wealth creators that provide them with the state benefits that allow them to continue their wretched existence. Perhaps if their state benefits were only paid as reward for carrying out jobs that they were capable of such as snow and leaf clearance, graffiti removal or anything else where ineptitude was not a handicap, they might begin to appreciate the society that they live in.
Rant over!!

I am completely fascinated by this whole occupy thing. Clearly there are enough people who want to protest to sustain the longest protest in recent memory in multiple cities across the entire nation. However since they have no specified goal nobody could possibly yield to their demands. It seems that this protesters not only want someone else to solve their problems, but for someone else to tell them what their problems are in the first place.

“The ultimate goal of the primary resistance movement in this scenario is simply a living planet . . .”

They’re going to try to animate a huge spherical rock? This can’t end well.

– –

One of the three demands being made by the hooded-zombie-poster students: “Stop selling parking permits to students within one mile of campus. Getting these students to campus without a car will free spots for individuals that commute and need a space.”

In the interest of the environment, they’d like to prohibit short commutes because they make long commutes more difficult? They’d like to encourage students to move further away from the school to get out of the prohibited zone?

If nothing else, this adds a bit of context to one of their other demands: “An apology for calling your students ‘uninformed voters’ would also be appropriate during this time . . .”

When people call for the end to industrial civilization, they are actually calling for billions of deaths. These people are more dangerous than Hitler, Mao and Stalin combined. Further they are advocating the same philosophy: change the world for the better (in their perverted view). Exactly how are they different or how will the outcome of their massive reordering of society be different than the last few times it was tried by madmen? I suggest that this plan is nothing less than a proposed genocide of the human race. Here is the evidence in their own words:

GreenShirts: To disrupt and dismantle industrial civilization;JK: This is actually an advocacy of genocide of the human race, as any rational person knows that industrial civilization is required to support our current population.

GreenShirts: Engage in direct militant actions against industrial infrastructure, especially energy infrastructure.JK: Advocacy of criminal activities designed to kill people by denying them energy.

GreenShirts: such that more intact land and species will remain when civilization does collapse.JK: Further call for human deaths on a scale far beyond our worst nightmares of a nuclear war.

GreenShirts: Rebuild a sustainable subsistence base for human societies (including perennial polycultures for food) and localized, democratic communities that uphold human rights.JK: For the few percent of the people who did not starve to death, freeze to death or die of diseases caused by this plan.

The only good news is that these are acts of terrorism, something taken very seriously these days.

I am completely fascinated by this whole occupy thing. Clearly there are enough people who want to protest to sustain the longest protest in recent memory in multiple cities across the entire nation. However since they have no specified goal nobody could possibly yield to their demands. It seems that this protesters not only want someone else to solve their problems, but for someone else to tell them what their problems are in the first place.”

Eh this is a bit of a toss up… they have very small numbers expect for the NYC one and for the most part are heavily funded by obama and other leftwing groups.

The starter groups such as Bill Ayers is a former commie terrorist(not sure if it was just pro-mao or pro-stalin and mao) who wanted another “days of rage” which is what this protest is.

The vast majority of the video and pictures coming out paint this as a typical commie/hitler youth rally of blaming capitalism and (insert race, gender, etc) and the only way to fix these problems to to bring about socialism. Of course as what happened with hitler, stalin, mao and many other socialist movements… once they remove the “evil capitalists” they begin infighting aka who socialism is better aka who gets complete control.

The really sad part about this is that some ron paul supporters, anarchists and libertarians are being baited into supporting this “movement”. It doesn’t help that the media both heavily supports this but often confuses socialists(who want more/total government they just don’t want the “current government” where they are at the lower end of the stealing) with anarchists who want no government.

In acting on Strategy A I can see it now: thousands of luddite students wielding sledgehammers taking to the fields and tearing down all those windmills! Rock-throwing Palestinian look-alikes smashing fields of solar panels! That’s right, go after the energy sector.

Some day these kids will grow up into productive adults. Problem is, if my poor old memory serves me still, it takes a long time to shake off the hubris of youth. Lots of silliness can be accomplished in the meantime.

Hmm, Hitchcock is all well and good, but some of us got their first taste of “The Birds” from Du Maurier’s short story. Poor old Daphne – forgotten and unloved.

Anyway, I have a serious question – that’s a bit off-topic. Like most people here, I believe that the warming/cooling cycles of the earth are driven by various cycles and processes. Then atmospheric CO2 levels follow the warming – not the other way around. So, when it gets warmer, COs is outgassed from the oceans.

My question is: what would it take for atmospheric COs levels to drop? How much cooling would we need, and for how long? Are we likely to see it anytime soon?

Because I’d really love to see the reaction when atmospheric CO2 drops.

Adam says:
October 12, 2011 at 10:46 pm
It seems that this protesters not only want someone else to solve their problems, but for someone else to tell them what their problems are in the first place.

An astute observation. Watching the zombie like chants splattered across Youtube, I’d say you were right. “we don’t know what the problem is, but we want a solution. Preferably, one we don’t need to work for…..”

I can understand your feelings – they are now doubt like mine and very much akin to Brian Johnsons “Kids/Teenagers please leave home now whilst you still know everything”.

But having brought up too kids and been a Teenager in the 60’s myself, I remember the delicious thrill of thinking that if there was some sort of “disaster” then that would in many ways, sort my life out for me.

Never underestimate just how scary the world looks to a teenager. After all for the first 20 years of life kids are generally spoon fed and looked after by others. The thought of actually making their own way in the world scares them shitless.

Therefore if the world they have to come to terms with and work within, make their way financially, can be down graded or dismissed or destroyed in some way, then all the worries about money, career etc can be forgotten about.

It is a child like dream of individuals who have not yet come to terms with life.

But I do not despise them. Most mature quickly out of it, as demonstrated by the huge numbers taking part in the “demonstration”. Those that don’t get my pity as maturity wise they are not the full ticket.

Marx was wrong. Its not the workers leading the charge for change, it’s the non-producers demanding their fair share. Of course fair means ‘more than I have now’. It’s everyone else that can do with less.

Yes this also makes me laugh too. Websites, hosted on servers, connected to the internet (Thanks Al). So not only are there servers at one end and PCs/laptops at the other, there is a rash of routers and telecommunications equipment in between ALL totally dependent on that energy infrastructure in their targets. It’s like cutting your legs off just before entering a 100m sprint race.

… So tell me Anthony. How does it feel to live in a global center of Capitalist wickedness were you have the frightful right to own your own property and the vicious freedom to sell it to whomever you damn well please……. I’m speechless at the pure dastardliness of the concept…. D’oh! ;-)

I despair of young people….. The older you get, the more you realize they are just damn dangerous.

I disagree with the disdain for the occupy [X] movement. I feel like this movement is an expression of anger, and that is why there is no real coherent goal. This anger is a justified anger. The private sector was just given $700,000,000,000 of public money. There is talk of raising taxes on the bottom 50% of American income, which would have to be a very significant raise in taxes to equal the amount dished out to banks without even a proper accounting for the funds received. What’s worse is, since most of the institutions in question were never liquidated, the losses that the $700,000,000,000 bailout were offsetting were largely paper losses. Given that the bottom 1% of Americans own 1% of American wealth, it’s really easy to see how this could piss off a lot of people.

In fact, the more the American government focuses on the interests of corporations, the worse it gets for most of the country. Despite the unproven notion that aligning with the interests of large businesses and the wealthy will trickle down to the rest of America. It’s been 30 years since Reagan put that forward, but there isn’t a drop of definitive data to uphold such a bizarre notion. So, folks, are you really skeptical, or only when it’s convenient? We quibble here about tenths of a degree such small changes in the sum forcing received by the Sun, yet so many seem to uphold this easily debunked (or at least questionable, given the level of “skepticism” put to other matters) ideal.

Goal 1: To disrupt and dismantle industrial civilization; to thereby remove the ability of the powerful to exploit the marginalized and destroy the planet.

Because back in the past, before industrial civilization, there were no kings and emperors?

These people are so demented that they don’t even think back to egyptian pharaohs and Chinese god-emperors. People who really knew how to exploit a workforce!

I don’t think they are terrorists, since they seek to destroy things not people, but they are certainly fanatics. And fanatics often hurt and kill by secondary effects – which is what taking down power networks would certainly do.

Is it me or is the idea of using the internet to promote your cause, whilst trying to bring the corporate culture that sustains the hardware and software behind not the slightest bit hypocritical?
Not a new thought I’m sure, its just that I find this type of hypocrisy one of the greatest problems in bothering to pay the slightest bit of attention to them and their ilk.

“This book is the story of Direct Action – a small urban guerrilla group whose dramatic acts of economic sabotage gave them world-wide notoriety. Their struggle was relatively short-lived. The headline grabbing bombings of the Cheekeye-Dunsmuir hydro-electric power line on Vancouver Island, and Litton systems plant in Toronto (where Cruise missile components were being built) succeeded in focusing the full resources of police investigation and surveillance on their activities. Despite being largely underground, the group were ambushed and captured on their way to a weekly shooting practice session near the town of Squamish less than one year after the group began. The ‘Squamish Five’, as they became known, were later tried and sentenced to between ten years and life for their actions.”

I thought most of the Western world had all sorts of shiny new anti-terrorist legislation for dealing with threats like that? Or is that legislation only for use for whipping us ordinary folk into submission?

Ummm… I do believe your good friend Willis Eschenbach would have been on that street corner holding a sign 40 years ago. Since you don’t seem to hold that against him I’m not sure why you’ve got a problem with these kids. They’re being stupid not evil.

My question is: what would it take for atmospheric COs levels to drop? How much cooling would we need, and for how long? Are we likely to see it anytime soon?

Because I’d really love to see the reaction when atmospheric CO2 drops.
___________________________________________________
If I remember correctly the Ice Core data showed a lag of about 800 years so we will not be around long enough to say “I told you so”…. SIGH.

Actually I hope the CO2 goes up to about 500 to 600ppm. The plants would love it. (At 2000ppm is where we start getting into toxicity problems)

It is worth repeating that anti-industrial ideology is not limited to a fringe of liberal arts students. The green-agenda website shows that the green-elite holds the same views. The scandal is that politicians are willing to exploit the green garbage to extend bureaucratic power, and most of the mass media voices are uncritical. The treason of the intellectuals…http://www.green-agenda.com/

I think a person ought to be cut some slack for being rebellious and stupid in their youth. It’s when they fail to grow out of it and become an old bald rebel like James Hansen that it becomes difficult to find the charity to forgive them for it.

My question is: what would it take for atmospheric COs levels to drop? How much cooling would we need, and for how long? Are we likely to see it anytime soon?

Because I’d really love to see the reaction when atmospheric CO2 drops.

Well, since most of the CO2 is in the deep ocean, and judging from ice ages and all, there’s a lag on the order of 800 years for CO2 to rise coming out of an ice age, and a more irregular but longer lag before it drops going into the next ice age. So, as us CO2 exhalers say, ummm, don’t hold your breath…

… I have a serious question – that’s a bit off-topic. Like most people here, I believe that the warming/cooling cycles of the earth are driven by various cycles and processes. Then atmospheric CO2 levels follow the warming – not the other way around. So, when it gets warmer, COs is outgassed from the oceans.

My question is: what would it take for atmospheric COs levels to drop? How much cooling would we need, and for how long? Are we likely to see it anytime soon?

Thanks Robert. I see this question asked too few times IMHO.

People forget that the CO2 exchange with the oceans is of an order or orders of magnitude greater than our own emissions – and follows Henry’s Law so as to actually hide and swallow our contribution, if I’ve understood Henry’s Law right (and IMO, photosynthesis also effectively hides and swallows our contribution).

I fear that the Mauna Loa Observatory might put a spin on their figures – at least, for a while. Key issue should be sea level: when that starts declining overall, then is the time to expect CO2 levels to fall. Mind, they won’t fall to nothing, just to a lower level, if I have understood Henry’s Law aright. However, cometesimals indicate that the planet may have a continual drip-tap feed from the sky to the oceans, so even sea level may not quite level out. Figures would help, since cometesimals’ effect may be negligible in the time scale we’re dealing with.

Looks like those Chico occupiers have total control of about 50 sq ft. If I recall correctly, I usually had to drink myself stupid to do something I would be embarrassed about for the rest of my life. These kids don’t appear to be drinking.

Gail Combs says:
October 12, 2011 at 10:27 pm
Having grown up in rural Scotland, with no Electricity, No Gas, a Septic Tank, Water from a spring, No Car and No Public Transport (4 miles to the bus), I love Civilization in general and electricity in particular!

So why don’t these nice people go join the one group that practice what they preach the Amish community who Value rural life, manual work and humility they will love the rejection of labour-saving technologies also Modern innovations like electricity and any status goods which might cultivate personal vanity.
Also they could do with the genetics Because a smaller gene pool has some nasty side effects like increased incidences of certain genetic disorders from inbreeding !
Then again I don’t think the religious teachings and devout life style will stick with these lazy minded fools also their hatred for the modern world stops before they have to give up their I pods and blackberry !

For the workd to exist at a subsistence level would require a massive reduction in population. Knowing how much the green movement loves futile gestures, eg Australia’s new carbon tax, perhaps the members of DGR should volunteer to drop dead.

These kids need to spend some time camping in the wild with out electronics or lighters to start fire. Its too easy for them to head on down to the local fast food chain for dinner while protesting big international corporations. They would have more impact if they were to move off the grid and support themselves.

I wrote this on the “Sustainable Mirth” thread but it fits better here.

Someone needs to plant the seed in their heads that they should “Occupy The Artic” :o)

That said, I think Doug UK, October 12, 2011 at 11:42 pm, has it nailed. I’d only add that as soon as funds are cut off and one has to fend for oneself in the world, attitudes have a strong tendancy to change.

Socialist revolution – usually undertaken by a bunch of people who wring their hands at the plight of the poor bugger walking behind a water-buffalo, ploughing a paddy field.

They bring about their revolution, like as not, taking up priviliged postions in the new regime, and feel all so much better about themselves.

And the rice farmer? Well, he’s still there, watching his buffalo defacate in front of him. Nothing has changed, except the people at the top. And why would it? The rice still needs to be produced.

The warmists, greenists, anti-capitalists etc all have so much to rant about, but I guarantee you they won’t do the one thing that’s necessary to bring about their agendas. Stop breeding. All their woes (increased CO2, ravaged wildernesses, growth of wealth of the super rich etc) – if indeed they are real problems – have a root cause of increasing population. Will they stop squeezing out more little greeno-warming-socialist-revolutionaries? You bet your butt they won’t.

I suspect for most of the readers here, we do live in democratic communities that do uphold human rights. These people are deciding that their idea of ‘democratic’ is more important/correct than the majority of their fellow countrypersons. Nothing democratic in that, but they do not understand that, do they?

The fool that calls them drongos is no idiot.

PS – until yesterday, I thought I lived in the democratic country of Australia but the current Labor/Green/Independent coalition has proven that to be wrong. Can’t wait until the next election and hope that someone can use their democratic right to sue these future ex-politicians for screwing the country.

Adam says:
October 12, 2011 at 10:46 pm
I am completely fascinated by this whole occupy thing. Clearly there are enough people who want to protest to sustain the longest protest in recent memory in multiple cities across the entire nation. However since they have no specified goal nobody could possibly yield to their demands. It seems that this protesters not only want someone else to solve their problems, but for someone else to tell them what their problems are in the first place.

Its amazing how many people you can attract when you provide free food and drink and pay the organizers. This is the reason for no consistent message apart from ‘occupy’.

They missed the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse riding down Normal Street (*) and the Beast with the number 666 on it rising up and devouring everything. Otherwise a straight lift from any doomsday cult anywhere and anytime over the last 2K years. First written practitioner..st John the divine in his Book of Revelations.

(*) Please please please tell me that Chico has an Abnormal Street as well? It will make me giggle for the rest of the day.

Talking about birds, will the Greens be demonstrating against wind farms because of the risk they pose to birds

Nope. Windmills are sacred to the Green religion. While masquerading as useful ways of generating electricity they are in fact Temples to Mother Gaia. Erected in the hope that this entirely futile gesture will appease her wrath and make the winters really cold again.

The ‘tell’ is that windmills are almost completely useless at what they are supposed to be doing. Like James Bond’s pistol in a fountain pen…the pistol was fine but it was useless to write with. Windmills are great for collective unwashed worship but b..r all use at making juice.

jim says:
October 12, 2011 at 10:58 pm
Please forgive me for being blunt in this posting.

Well said… I would only add that we do not have to speculate too much about the consequences. Pol Pot already ran an experiment that was close to what these folks are advocating — de-industrialization, de-urbanization, a return to a more primitive economy and society — and the result was indeed death on a huge scale.

I love the guy with the “We are the 99%” sign while protesting with four other people.

Hopefully there aren’t too many people interested in returning to the Utopian paradise of the Dark Ages. Although I guess you’d have to admit that 9th century Europe had a pretty damn small “carbon footprint”.

Personally I am thrilled to bits that some students have finally got off their asses and gone out in to the fresh air for any reason. There could be a few future climatologists among them who will notice that the world does not start and finish at a computer key board. They might even see a thermometer for sale in a shop and realise that it is possible to get actual temperatures instead of getting fudged “datasets” from someone else. A whole new era could be upon us. The time of the physical scientist who steps away from his key board and does actual research!!. Go to it kids. I loved being on demo’s in the 60’s. Great way to meet girls, Fresh air, no lectures. Fabulous. Didn’t do me any harm and did not change a damn thing. Que sera sera.

Wow. Just wow. They use the Internet to get the word out about wanting to bring down industrial civilization…which they wouldn’t be able to do if not for industrial infrastructure, plastics manufacture, mining for metals, electricity mostly generated by coal and nuclear, etc. Do you think they even give this hypocrisy a second thought? Incidentally, what are they planning to use for their “militant” actions – sticks and stones they find lying around? I suppose their argument would be that they are using the weapons of the military-industrial complex just long enough to bring it down. That passes for logic in these circles.

Has the utopia they describe ever occurred in the entire course of human history? It’s the Eden myth again. Concepts like democracy and justice are not possible in a subsistence lifestyle.

I echo Gail Combs above. If these people are so against capitalism, industry, etc., they should go form communes in some empty spaces in western states and see how it goes. If they want to make it even easier, they could join Amish communities. They don’t seem to be much into capitalism, either.

Oh, bollocks, that should read …bottom 50% of Americans own 1% of American wealth…

Um … that’s precisely why it is called “the bottom half.”
If they owned 99% of the American wealth, they would be called “the top half”.
Well one could imagine that those who belong to “the bottom half” would prefer to be in “the top half.”
There is surely no God given law that says that “the bottom half” must own X% of American wealth where X is some arbitrary number different from 1.

But then, clearly, to achieve that goal to go from one half in the other, there is only one way – have some skills like those who are in “the top half”, learn, work hard, spend wisely and invest with intelligence.
A confused illiterate standing on a street corner with a cardboard and yelling “Wanna, wanna, wanna !” is on the sure road to stay where he belongs, e.g “the bottom half”.
The “Wanna, wanna” strategy only works untill the age of 5 years provided you have parents ready to spoil you silly.
Thinking that it still works after 5 years is a severe case of mental disorder.

The goal of DGR is to deprive the rich of their ability to steal from the poor.

That sounds like a communist manifesto to me. Well, if that is your goal, I suggest you take a trip to California. A man named Al Gore is insanely wealthy, having just bought an expensive beachfront house. He steals from the poor because he advocates things that benefit his wallet. He also is bad for the planet because he flies all over the country to advocate policy that makes him rich and some of his policies have been responsible for the slaughter of thousands of birds. Al Gore’s policies affect the poor the most because they will be forced to choose between food or warmth.

Please tell me when you would like to deprive this rich man of his ability to steal from the poor. You are not hypocrites are you? (Oh wait, you are.)

David Falkner says: October 13, 2011 at 12:15 am
Totally agree with the fact that many enviros are totally nuts. I disagree with the disdain for the occupy [X] movement.

I have only been doing any concerted study of CAGW for a few years, but one thing that I have learned is that CAGW is a completely politicized subject about which the mainstream media will lie and spin, regardless of what the truth is. After all, there is a lot of money to made off of Global Warming. Do you really expect that same mainstream media to suddenly become honest and impartial when they report on the Occupy Wall Street movement?

I visited a local OWS protest to see for myself what they were shouting about. Here is what I saw.

There were about 500 people there. I would estimate that about 45% of the people were between 18 and 25 years old, maybe 15% were 25 to 40 years old and about 40% over 40 — including some in their 70s and 80s. The younger people tended to be more radical — the older looked like Tea Party sorts. I saw one Che Guevara tee shirt and one cardboard sign saying “Capitalism is a failed experiment.” On the other hand, I also saw a bunch of American flags and three or four older guys handing out Fair Tax pamphlets. I saw a selection of people with hats indicating that they were veterans. The one thing I saw in common (based mostly on their signs) for both the liberal members and the conservative members was that they believed (and were upset about the fact,) that the most powerful corporations in the US — including the Federal Reserve — have fraudulently crashed the economy while making untold billions in the process, and then bought off politicians so that American taxpayers are forced to pay for the losses. They want CEOs to go to jail for fraud.

That is what I saw. Maybe you will see something different in your area if you go and look for yourself. When you see the mainstream media portraying these folks as simple whack jobs, ask yourself, “Are these the same people who tell me the Earth has a fever? Can I trust them?”

“A planet on which humans live in equitable and sustainable communities without exploiting the planet or each other.”

They might want to take a peak at history. This is hardly descriptive of pre-industrial communities. Most pre-industrial communities were constantly at war with each other. American Indians and settlers deforested approximately 30% of the eastern seaboard. Very green indeed.

Wijnand says:
October 13, 2011 at 5:07 am
“I hope that this dude does not get seriously ill, needing medical assistance on an EVIL energy slurping intensive care unit…..that would suck for him, slowly dying in his wooden shack in the woods…”

In the FAQ on deepgreenresistance they answer the question “Who would die if your policies are enacted” with one of their lengthy question-evading manifestos, but in that enormous body of text they also say “At least one of us, I suffer from Krohn’s disease and will die if I don’t get my medication” so the answer is: They’re pretending to be so saintly that they’ll happily sacrifice themselves for the survival of “the planet”.

I had to scroll a lot to find that. What a bunch of self-righteous loons.

They should all go live on a farm with no electric, no tractors, no running water, no metal, no plastic, no man made fibers….. in Wisconsin, North Dakota or Montana for a few years and THEN make their decision on whether or not they really hate “Civilization”

Idiotic super market predators.

—

Bravo, Gail!! This is my suggestion precisely. Unfortunately, these people would go insane the minute their iPad or smart phone went dead…

In addition, I always use these threads to remind our CAGW climate friends to PLEASE STOP USING ALL FOSSIL FUEL PRODUCTS — TODAY!! No gasoline, no coal-derived electricity, no products derived from petroleum, no jet planes, no gas-powered buses, cars, motorcycles…JUST STOP! Find and manufacture (without the use of fossil fuels) your alternatives. Thanks.

Must of done it wrong when I was a student as I partied so hard I’ve become a hermit now I’m a bit older.

Started by running my own music night on a Thursday and if there where 15 – 20 people still round my house Sunday night that was no problem, it was the parties that started on the Thursday and finished on the following Thursday that where the real problems.

The best is I got most of it on video and now all my hedonistic friends beg me not to show them to there wife’s. Which just goes to show anything you do in your 20’s can seem really embarrassing when you’re older.

This occupy movement is more against corporate and financial control over government than the green movement. No surprise that the greens involved are oblivious to the fact that their big organizations like Greenpeace and the WWF are a part of this problem as well. Still, we do have a big problem where corporations, unions, and other special interests have more say in our government and the details of the bills they pass than any of us do, regardless of political party. I support anyone willing to get out and try to raise awareness of it, even if some haven’t seen the full picture yet.

“The goal of DGR is to deprive the rich of their ability to steal from the poor.”

The rich do not steal from the poor. The poor freely give up their money, that’s what makes them poor. If it came to pass that all the money in the world were redistributed to everyone equally, in a very short time the money would be back in the hands of the previously rich and the previously poor would be poor again. It is all about mindset and what to do with money. The poor spend it when they get it, instantaneous gratification with material things they think they want. The rich use money to create more wealth, in particular by creating the products the poor will spend their money on.

“Socialist revolution – usually undertaken by a bunch of people who wring their hands at the plight of the poor bugger walking behind a water-buffalo, ploughing a paddy field.”
Not in any socialist revolution one can think of. That’s just the PR. The actual revolution is done by wringing the poor bugger’s neck after stealing his buffalo at gunpoint.

“It has failed to stop the destruction of people” – I’m not sure I understand what they’re getting at – I thought Eco Loons wanted the population drastically reduced?

“To defend and rebuild just, sustainable, and autonomous human communities, and, as part of that, to assist in the recovery of the land.” Then “Such that more intact land and species will remain when civilization does collapse” – So they don’t have any confidence that their crazy plans will work, anyway!

David Falkner says:
October 13, 2011 at 12:15 am
Totally agree with the fact that many enviros are totally nuts.

I disagree with the disdain for the occupy [X] movement. I feel like this movement is an expression of anger, and that is why there is no real coherent goal. This anger is a justified anger. The private sector was just given $700,000,000,000 of public money. There is talk of raising taxes on the bottom 50% of American income, which would have to be a very significant raise in taxes to equal the amount dished out to banks without even a proper accounting for the funds received. What’s worse is, since most of the institutions in question were never liquidated, the losses that the $700,000,000,000 bailout were offsetting were largely paper losses. Given that the bottom 1% of Americans own 1% of American wealth, it’s really easy to see how this could piss off a lot of people.

In fact, the more the American government focuses on the interests of corporations, the worse it gets for most of the country. Despite the unproven notion that aligning with the interests of large businesses and the wealthy will trickle down to the rest of America. It’s been 30 years since Reagan put that forward, but there isn’t a drop of definitive data to uphold such a bizarre notion. So, folks, are you really skeptical, or only when it’s convenient? We quibble here about tenths of a degree such small changes in the sum forcing received by the Sun, yet so many seem to uphold this easily debunked (or at least questionable, given the level of “skepticism” put to other matters) ideal.

Wattsupwiththat? (comment copied for reposting elsewhere)

As the Gipper once said David, it’s not so much what you, it’s that so much that you know is wrong.

But you are correct about the anger over the bailouts. That’s one of the things that launched the TEA party. The TEA party is tired of corporatism (don’t call it “crony capitalism,” because there is nothing capitalistic about it), tired of a tax code so arcane that the IRS can’t understand it and tired of politicians giving favors away to special interest groups in exchange for votes.

Limited government is the answer. More government is not the answer. The government is the cause of this recession. Politicians and bureaucrats decided it wasn’t fair that the only people who could own homes were people who could reasonably be expected to pay the mortgage. Banks were pressured to make more loans to the poor and minorities, but told not to worry (wink, wink), the federal government will take care of you if the loans go bad. When the housing bubble burst, guess who was left on the hook for the money?

I don’t personally care how much wealth the top 1% have. I’m not poor because Steve Jobs or Bill Gates has billions. Marxist theory holds that if somebody has more, than somebody else has less. But if you understand wealth creation, you’d know that’s not true. Black Americans made their greatest economic gains during the Reagan administration, and not because of any specific programs targeting black American poverty, but because a rising tide lifts all boats. In fact, we experienced decades of unprecedented growth and prosperity because of Reagan’s policies.

In contrast, the more Obama tries to do, the worse things get. If you knew your history, you would know it was government intervention against the 1929 recession that created the Great Depression. The New Deal didn’t end the Great Depression; it didn’t help make it shorter or less severe. The New Deal prolonged and deepened the Great Depression.

So instead of trying to equalize outcomes and equalize wealth through redistribution, you should be focusing on how to create wealth. Grow the economy. Teach people how to save. People aren’t owed jobs, or a specific wage. Reform the education system so that our young people stop graduating as functional illiterates. Stop resenting those who have more and focus on how to improve yourselves.

Problem with this is that once you have localized communities, the leader of each will do whatever s/he wants, and no one will know, or be able to stop him/her. Slavery will return, and of course a basic class system that would result in 99% of the people (yes, the same 99%) being surfs.

First of all, they are espousing a religious jihad. That makes them akin to a subversive terrorist group. Second, they were likely pampered, spoiled kids who were given their allowance instead of made to earn it. Third, all food was likely brought to their kiddy table straight from a frozen package so they wouldn’t know the first thing about how to work a weapon of any kind or bring food from uncultivated land to the table.

That makes them terrorist idiots, similar to the guy who caught his family jewels on fire trying to blow up an airliner. Why don’t we provide that same underwear device to these corner placard idiots and tell them to go blow up something?

I’m sure they will grow up into mature, if not slightly embarrassed adults. This is a phase that young people go through, it’s important in their development, a bit like dying your hair pink and liking Goth music. Don’t worry, look at them and think, ‘ah bless em’ aren’t they sweet’ They will get over it, as long as they don’t harm anyone they can be as bonkers as they like as far as I’m concerned. We’ll be worrying about their dress sense next!

My training in research included how NOT to add color commentary to research articles. Nontheless, NSICD says, “Continued loss of the oldest, thickest ice has prevented any significant recovery of the summer minimum extent. In essence, what was once a refuge for older ice has become a graveyard.”

Let’s send these weeping for the planet idiots to the Artic (sic) to save the dying ice. If they take their undie bombs with them, they can stay warm! What’s not to like???

I should say if you think the Bunyip has problems with battiness in Melbourne, that’s nothing compared with our Hitchkockian sufferers further North-http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/man-v-bats/story-e6frg8h6-1226158915886

Way back in my high school days in the 1980s, we were expected to read, believe (and regurgitate for better marks) chilling tomes such as “The Fate of the Earth” and “Entropy”. Why, the entire planet was either going to blow up, or die of starvation and disease because we cut down all the rain forests. At the very least, by the far away year of 2011, we’d be nothing but savages living in a post-apocalyptic Hell. For many of us, “The Road Warrior” was just a prescient documentary.

I can believe that many of my classmates drank the Kool-Aid. (I know of one who has been arrested multiple times for “green” protests”.) I can imagine that my generation went on to try to kickstart the Green Party here in Canada (doing not so well: the recent provincial election they, once again, came in 4th, well behind the other parties – most of the opinion polls put their support below the margin of error in the polls).

I don’t expect these hypocrites to do the decent thing and unplug themselves from the grid before they blow it up for the rest of us…it would be hard to cut through a power pole with a stone axe after all.

Idle hands are the devils playthings. Unemployment and lack of opportunity are the underlying problem. From the point of view of many, the system is not working.

Every year the economy must grow by an amount equal to the increase in population times the interest rates, just to stay even. That means that the current economic measure of a recession is misleading. Small positive growth is in reality a recession, that over times erodes the ability of the economy to provide for the people.

Not very long ago, one parent working provided sufficient income for the average family. Today, with typically much smaller families, both parents must work to make ends meet. Is this progress? Are we twice as wealthy with two people working in every family instead of one? Or has the increased labor force competed against itself to drive down wages in real terms, so that families today are working twice as hard without any real benefit? Real wages have not gone up much in the past 30 years, while the buying power of money is only a fraction of what it was then. The law of unintended consequences.

wayne says:
October 13, 2011 at 3:16 am
Socialist revolution – usually undertaken by a bunch of people who wring their hands at the plight of the poor bugger walking behind a water-buffalo, ploughing a paddy field.

They bring about their revolution, like as not, taking up priviliged postions in the new regime, and feel all so much better about themselves.

And the rice farmer? Well, he’s still there, watching his buffalo defacate in front of him. Nothing has changed, except the people at the top. And why would it? The rice still needs to be produced.

The warmists, greenists, anti-capitalists etc all have so much to rant about, but I guarantee you they won’t do the one thing that’s necessary to bring about their agendas. Stop breeding….

________________________________

Actually, I think breeding is necessary for life to continue. But, profligate consumption could be curtailed with little harm to the poor, and a reduction of excess profits for the “rich”.

The “stop breeding” message is a Club of Rome initiative to concentrate wealth.

The rich can hire others to carry their stuff. The poor must carry their own stuff, if indeed they have any, and may sometimes get an ill-paying job carrying a little of a rich man’s stuff. Ah stuff, it makes the world go round; along with a little food and water and…

One of the biggest environmental problems is the abject mess these groups leave when they occupy anything. Compare that with the clean environment left by Tea Party gatherings and you have an obvious indication which group really cares about their environment. These sit-down chill-out people are clueless–they are useless tools for the next fad-filling waste of resources and time. Sad they can’t see that.

I’ve seen these demands before, Life of Brian where the PFJ demand that the roman empire be dismantled in three days or they’ll chop bits off Ceasar’s wife untill the Romans agree to their demands. Love that bit.

Scott B says:
October 13, 2011 at 5:50 am
This occupy movement is more against corporate and financial control over government than the green movement. No surprise that the greens involved are oblivious to the fact that their big organizations like Greenpeace and the WWF are a part of this problem as well. Still, we do have a big problem where corporations, unions, and other special interests have more say in our government and the details of the bills they pass than any of us do, regardless of political party. I support anyone willing to get out and try to raise awareness of it, even if some haven’t seen the full picture yet.

They are only against big money that doesn’t support progressive causes. Are they protesting George Soros and his various storefront groups? Protesting the undue influence of public employees unions and their incestuous relationship certain politicians?

But they are in favor of certain companies and industries getting special tax breaks, subsidies and bailouts — but only the ones they like. Most seem to be in favor of personal bailouts. They’re as upset that they didn’t bet a bailout as they are upset that the banks did. And they aren’t concerned at all about how government policy setup the whole mess in the first place.

Dr? Of what? From where? I’d guess he’s a product of the pseudoscience of Conservation Biology, the ‘science’ that is even WORSE than AGW Climastrology.

This ‘goal’ is classic example of the ‘Dr’s’ fairy tale mindset and complete ignorance: “A planet on which humans live in equitable and sustainable communities without exploiting the planet or each other.”

“That is what I saw. Maybe you will see something different in your area if you go and look for yourself. When you see the mainstream media portraying these folks as simple whack jobs, ask yourself, “Are these the same people who tell me the Earth has a fever? Can I trust them?””

Thanks for the golden invitation. No thanks. They are wack jobs and I’m not interested in taking part in their 15 minutes of fame.

My friend did not disagree with me as to the likely counterproductive effects of such a demonstration. Instead, he argued that this simply did not matter. His answer was that even if it was counterproductive, even if it turned people against war protesters, indeed even if it made them more likely to support the continuation of the war, he would still participate in the demonstration and he would do so for one simple reason — because it was, in his words, good for his soul.

What I saw as a political act was not, for my friend, any such thing. It was not aimed at altering the minds of other people or persuading them to act differently. Its whole point was what it did for him.

And what it did for him was to provide him with a fantasy — a fantasy, namely, of taking part in the revolutionary struggle of the oppressed against their oppressors. By participating in a violent anti-war demonstration, he was in no sense aiming at coercing conformity with his view — for that would still have been a political objective. Instead, he took his part in order to confirm his ideological fantasy of marching on the right side of history, of feeling himself among the elect few who stood with the angels of historical inevitability. Thus, when he lay down in front of hapless commuters on the bridges over the Potomac, he had no interest in changing the minds of these commuters, no concern over whether they became angry at the protesters or not. They were there merely as props, as so many supernumeraries in his private psychodrama. The protest for him was not politics, but theater; and the significance of his role lay not in the political ends his actions might achieve, but rather in their symbolic value as ritual. In short, he was acting out a fantasy.

It was not your garden-variety fantasy of life as a sexual athlete or a racecar driver, but in it, he nonetheless made himself out as a hero — a hero of the revolutionary struggle. The components of his fantasy — and that of many young intellectuals at that time — were compounded purely of ideological ingredients, smatterings of Marx and Mao, a little Fanon and perhaps a dash of Herbert Marcuse.

OWS is a tribal ritual for this generation of Leftists, where they get to affirm their fantasy identity as heroic revolutionaries. Little wonder that the leftists of the environmental stripe are envious, and want to hold their own pageant. Unfortunately for the masterminds and organizers, leftists have been too narcissistic for the last couple of generations to actually try and carry out revolution, that would be too unpleasant, not to mention too dangerous.

Jeremy, polyculture = multiple crops grown togethe; Perennial Crop = An agricultural commodity that is produced from the same root structure for two or more years..

Most crops are currently annuals, they have to be replanted every season. Perennials wouldn’t have to be replanted for years, the consequent larger root structure would make better use of soil moisture, etc. Some of the environmentalists are anti-agriculture too, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Research is being done on perennial crops, but they’re not ready for mass conversion of agriculture yet. Typically, the enviros are pushing a solution that’s unripe, yet.

kids grow up to be exactly what they learned to be.
who taught those children?
who paid for teaching them what they were taught?
blame the parents, those perpetual blame-shifters and avoiders of responsibility.
‘why should i teach my children when the government does it for me?’
parents defaulted on teaching their children because they, themselves, were ignorant of fundamental laws of nature.
it’s not ordinary birds, mom and dad – it’s your chickens coming home.
you asked for it, you paid for it – how dare you complain now.
those apples fell right under the tree they grew on. they are no different than their parents. they learned their lessons well.

They are only against big money that doesn’t support progressive causes. Are they protesting George Soros and his various storefront groups? Protesting the undue influence of public employees unions and their incestuous relationship certain politicians?

Did George Soros lose billions and get bailed out by the tax-payer?

Most seem to be in favor of personal bailouts. They’re as upset that they didn’t bet a bailout as they are upset that the banks did. And they aren’t concerned at all about how government policy setup the whole mess in the first place.

During the current recession there are good economic arguments for tax reductions to the lower paid because those with low incomes are more likely to spend any extra money they get. In contrast quantitative easing has had disappointing results because the money has gone into banks which have hoarded it – apart from the money that they are paying in bonuses to the sort of people who bear a heavy responsibility for the crisis in the first place.

You are right, however, to remind people that government policy was also to blame for the crisis.

So why don’t these nice people go join the one group that practice what they preach the Amish community who Value rural life, manual work and humility they will love the rejection of labour-saving technologies also Modern innovations like electricity and any status goods which might cultivate personal vanity.

I think we are witnessing the manifestation of the “me” generation; and they don’t want to work! I happened to view the GA in Dallas, Tx today, the group ‘occupying’ Pioneer Park in downtown Dallas and there was a LONG discussion about how to ‘wake people up respectfully’. I kid you not (as some have stayed up all night ostensibly ‘working’ as claimed by a few) … additionally, just today, a vote was taking on ‘what we should be doing’ beside occupying the park and standing by the street holding signs … recommended was one ‘protest march’ a day past city hall and the ‘Federal Reserve’ to get more recognition. On a camera pan of the GA, I counted 26 ppl, with two additional attendees from the lawyers guild making 30 total.

This might also be termed the “Happy Meal” generation, having now come of age in the years since H-M’s were introduced by McDs (and H-M toys being introduced circa 1995).

And humility, if I may venture an assertion, is a foreign concept to (many of) them as well; a case could be made on the basis of the use of social-media (twitter, facebook, MySpace, YouTube, Livestream, etc), the stage upon which many now live …

Roy says:
October 13, 2011 at 11:09 am
“Did George Soros lose billions and get bailed out by the tax-payer? ”

You don’t need to bail out Soros during a crisis. He THRIVES in crises; he brought the pound down in 1992 and the Thai Baht in 1997. I’m sure he made a ton of money in 2007/2008; it was a well-announced crash. You sell, you buy your stuff back later. Or go outright short.

They are only against big money that doesn’t support progressive causes. Are they protesting George Soros and his various storefront groups? Protesting the undue influence of public employees unions and their incestuous relationship certain politicians?

Did George Soros lose billions and get bailed out by the tax-payer?

Most seem to be in favor of personal bailouts. They’re as upset that they didn’t bet a bailout as they are upset that the banks did. And they aren’t concerned at all about how government policy setup the whole mess in the first place.

During the current recession there are good economic arguments for tax reductions to the lower paid because those with low incomes are more likely to spend any extra money they get. In contrast quantitative easing has had disappointing results because the money has gone into banks which have hoarded it – apart from the money that they are paying in bonuses to the sort of people who bear a heavy responsibility for the crisis in the first place.

You are right, however, to remind people that government policy was also to blame for the crisis.

Roy

Roy, George Soros and the bailout of the financial sector are two different topics. While George Soros is heavily involved in the financial markets, I don’t know if he or any of his companies received bailouts and wasn’t implying he did.

George Soros came up because the self-styled “99%”-ers complain about the money in politics only when it’s the other side getting the campaign contributions. They don’t complain about environmental lobbying groups, only industry lobbying groups. They only complain about bailouts of the banks (BTW, the Treasury Department says we’re making a profit from TARP), but support the subsidies of solar and wind companies. Unions also lobby heavily and spend lavishly on political campaigns. I haven’t heard any of the “99%”-ers complain about that money.

The banks were contractually obligated to pay those bonuses. The bank regulators are also making it hard to loan money. The banks got into hot water by making risky loans, so it makes little sense to complain about them not making risky loans now. Banks also don’t make much money if they don’t make loans.

If you want the economy to recover, just roll-back most of the legislation and regulations passed when the Democrats controlled the White House and both houses of Congress. Repeal Obamacare immediately, as well as Dodd-Frank. Reduce the taxes on capital, allow the repatriation of foreign profits, start flattening, simplifying and broadening the tax base. Stop obsessing over tax rates and start focusing on tax revenues.

Lest you think I’m being too partisan, I’m well aware the Republicans spent too much money, increased federal spending dramatically and continued the housing policies that got us into this mess during the Bush years.

They have seen too many SYFY movies
.
The idea of major rivers drying up while the oceans are rising is not only ridiculous but their goal of bringing down the US and replacing it with some communist style dictatorship to prevent their imagined disaster sounds not only criminal but stupid to advertise. `

Autonomous human communities are like the ones Genghis Kahn and Attila the Hun overran while looting, raping murdering and burning autonomous human communities until they came up against Western civilizations organized population and armies.

The image of a rich guy like Warren Buffett robbing some poor guy is ridiculous. The image of a poor guy applying for a job from a rich guy is not ridiculous at all nor is the opportunity for personal improvement.

My question is: what would it take for atmospheric COs levels to drop? How much cooling would we need, and for how long? Are we likely to see it anytime soon?

Because I’d really love to see the reaction when atmospheric CO2 drops.
___________________________________________________
If I remember correctly the Ice Core data showed a lag of about 800 years so we will not be around long enough to say “I told you so”…. SIGH.

Actually I hope the CO2 goes up to about 500 to 600ppm. The plants would love it. (At 2000ppm is where we start getting into toxicity problems)

Your estimate of onset for CO2 toxicity is off by a factor of 10. You need about 20,000 ppm (2%) of CO2 to see significant effects.

The main issue here is the reasoning part of the brain isn’t usually fully developed, certainly in the male brain, until their mid-20′s.

True, that. The frontal lobes are hugely overdeveloped but unshaped by the late teens, then learning to use them begins. I believe Twain once said, about the period when he ran off to become a Mississippi river pilot, something like: “I left home at 19; when I returned at 22, I was amazed at how much my papa [? not sure of the phrasing] had learned in just 3 years.”
Heh.

wayne says:
October 13, 2011 at 3:16 am
…
All their woes (increased CO2, ravaged wildernesses, growth of wealth of the super rich etc) – if indeed they are real problems – have a root cause of increasing population. Will they stop squeezing out more little greeno-warming-socialist-revolutionaries? You bet your butt they won’t.

I take offense at this – “I think they’ve been occupying a bong too long.”

Medical Marijuans uses are proven and effective and I can testify to that – I don’t beleive all the green-left propaganda so don’t lump Cannabis users in with that crowd – it’s disrepectful and ignorant and you should know better