What better way to win someone's devotion than to die for them?"Greater love has no man than this, but that he lay down his life for another"

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. - the words of Yeshua, who came to set the example of Love.

As far as I am aware I have always said it made sense in just the way I have explained it above. It is in showing this, His great love for us, that our hearts are turned towards, and bound to, God. Would I trample the great sacrifice made for me by being disobedient to the one who made the sacrifice? Would I trample the sacrifice, the blood of Christ, the One who submitted to death on a cross to redeem us?As Paul says in his letter to the Hebrews;

29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is precisely that it is so counter-intuitive, what God has done to save us, that makes it so compelling that it could only come from God alone.

Salaam and blessings to you,CH

Edited by Caringheart - 30 June 2013 at 9:04pm

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

You Said: Which father would not suffer so his child is better? If you are a father would you risk your life to save your son. God is no different.

Me: you righty said in my case I will suffer and even risk my life to save my son, But God Almighty is different, He has so much power that He can do anything without suffering, isnít.

you said: God created Angels, Lucifer thought that he was superior to humans and refused to worship God if he made himself Man, which is why he was cast into hell.

Me:He refused to prostrate before Adam the first human created by God Almighty. This event refer to the skies while according to Christians God came to human form in this world not in skies. Satan problem was he doesnít want human superiority over him and he refuse to follow God commandant to prostrate Adam. This is the Islamic version. I do not know how Bible explain this event.

You said: My concepts are very clear.
I believe Jesus to be God because he himself says so
John 8: 58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!". This is how God refers to himself when Moses asks him, what name shall he call him and he says "I AM".
2. Jesus is God because a virgin conceived him and the Angel Gabriel specifically says he will be called Son of the Most high Luke 1 : 32.

Me: These are not clear statements to assume that Jesus (pbuh) claim divinity. On the other hand there are statements of Jesus (pbuh) where he said

1) My father is greater than I
2) I my own can do nothing I follow the will of my father

Further more in the whole Bible Jesus never said that I am God or Worship me.

So what you have bring from the Bible and what I have bring from the Bible, any person who have eyes from them he can see the reality, who have ears from them he can hear the truth, from his heart and mind he do fair analyze keeping in view that one day I have to stand before Almighty God, can never come the conclusion that Jesus is God.

You Said: The Old Testament is filled with prophecy of the coming of the Messiah.

Me: Messiah is not God, Jew were not waiting for the God arrival, check with any jew

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds

dear bronaz in my post I clearly mentioned about the dialouge regarding I am,if u say that Allah says I Am God to Moses(pbuh),means u want to say if someone says "I am",he is god?????that's truly illogical and funny,in gospel of mark ch 24 v 36-Jesus christ(pbuh) says nobody knows about the last hour nor man no angels of heaven,my father only knows.If Jesus christ(pbuh) is god then he should know when the final hour will come,this proves Jesus christ(pbuh) was not God,he is one of the most important prophets of Allah and its a duty of a Muslim to respect him,but Jesus Christ(pbuh) is not God.Allah in Qur'an says in ch 31 v 34-the knowledge of final hour is known only to Allah.

Well, Usmani and Naba,Usmani says God can do anything for his child, he doesnt have to die to accomplish salvation for him.How would God prove that he loves us???He could have chosen any way to save humans but chose to take the form of man, live with us and show us the way...it is the ULTIMATE. The Quran has a set of instructions, follow them get to heaven, dont follow them go to hell. In all I would say that the God of the Quran is very impersonal, some one who really not interested in what happens to man. Compare that with the Christian God of care and compassion that he chooses to live with us, share our burdens, so we humans can really know what God is like and what he wants of us, because he has done the same things himself. What an example?So we have different versions of a God..Which is more real??Which is the true God? I would say the one that assures you get to heaven. For one thing I am sure that when I ask forgiveness from God for whatever my sin, I know that I am forgiven about which there is no certainty in Islam

See carringhart and bronaz,if you keep ignoring the realities and truth than you are only living in the paradise of fools. There are already enough things which show the love and blessing of God like giving us life, health, money, loving parents, various kind of foods and sun, moon, stars all are there for human service, these blessings are uncountable. We are here in this world for a test and only those who pass the test will go to paradise. Since very beginning, there are prophets of God are coming here to tell us the very purpose of life and what is the test. There is no need of God scarifies .Jesus (pbuh) is not God,He is a great Prophet of God. We have seen even the Bible available now adays, does not saying that,you people are interpreting these verses of Bible in a way that Jesus (pbuh) is God. You are not taking seriously where Jesus (pbuh) said in the Bible, in my own words (I have to tell you many things but you cannot bear them now, the spirit of truth will come and he will tell you. Jesus (pbuh) are informing about another Messenger of God will come and this Messenger is no other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).Quran tell that there was even the name of coming Prophet was mentioned in the original Bible as ďAhmedĒ which is the another famous name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
I know people have lots of problems with Islam and believe me they are just misconceptions and they could easily be removed if one willing to understand Islam without being biased.

The picture I got of God from you is more like a helpless human rather than a God. You have misunderstood God carringheart and bronaz, and the worst part is that you are not ready to see the true picture of God. This life is test for us and if we fail this test than the consequence are very serious.

This is like if you are appearing in the exams and question paper is given to you and someone come and say that you donít need to solve the paper, you will be given full marks just do this and this. The test is the way of life is very much found in details in Islam, this tell us about the 24 hours of life is really incredible and can never be a human work.

True friend is the one who shows the true picture.

Best Regards,
Usmani

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds

at bronaz,Allah is most merciful and forgiving,the best example is this-ch 28 v 84-if U do a good deed Allah will reward U better than its merit,for a bad deed Allah may punish U according to sin or forgive U if U repent.this verse should change ur mind.don't try to make ur opinion about Allah,as rightly said there is nothing like him(ch 112 v 4),Allah is way above our imagination.

See carringhart and bronaz,if you keep ignoring the realities and truth than you are only living in the paradise of fools. There are already enough things which show the love and blessing of God like giving us life, health, money, loving parents, various kind of foods and sun, moon, stars all are there for human service, these blessings are uncountable. We are here in this world for a test and only those who pass the test will go to paradise. Since very beginning, there are prophets of God are coming here to tell us the very purpose of life and what is the test. There is no need of God scarifies .Jesus (pbuh) is not God,He is a great Prophet of God. We have seen even the Bible available now adays, does not saying that,you people are interpreting these verses of Bible in a way that Jesus (pbuh) is God. You are not taking seriously where Jesus (pbuh) said in the Bible, in my own words (I have to tell you many things but you cannot bear them now, the spirit of truth will come and he will tell you. Jesus (pbuh) are informing about another Messenger of God will come and this Messenger is no other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).Quran tell that there was even the name of coming Prophet was mentioned in the original Bible as ďAhmedĒ which is the another famous name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
I know people have lots of problems with Islam and believe me they are just misconceptions and they could easily be removed if one willing to understand Islam without being biased.

The picture I got of God from you is more like a helpless human rather than a God. You have misunderstood God carringheart and bronaz, and the worst part is that you are not ready to see the true picture of God. This life is test for us and if we fail this test than the consequence are very serious.

This is like if you are appearing in the exams and question paper is given to you and someone come and say that you donít need to solve the paper, you will be given full marks just do this and this. The test is the way of life is very much found in details in Islam, this tell us about the 24 hours of life is really incredible and can never be a human work.

True friend is the one who shows the true picture.

Best Regards,
Usmani

Greetings Usmani,

I don't feel like you read what I wrote and that you are mainly responding to Bronaz.Perhaps this is because of the great delay by the moderators in allowing my reply to you. You see, I agree with you... we are here in this life to prove ourselves worthy to enter the eternal kingdom of the Creator.However, you had asked why would God need to come to us in the form of a human son, and die for us? From the beginning it has been believed that God requires sacrifice for salvation, and what greater sacrifice than a man lay down his life for another? What greater way to win the love of another?That was what I responded to.

Salaam,Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Interestingly enough, I was doing some research on Ghandi and came across this, which seemed actually quite relevant to the discussion that we have been having here.

How could one manís death on a cheap, wooden cross reconcile mankind to God? Why does our perplexed, religiously diverse world struggle with such a possibility?

Why does the Quran confirm his exclusive virgin birth and call Jesus Kalimuttullah Ė the true Word of God? Was he just a man? Was he just a prophet? Why is he called the Messiah?

Why does the Bible declare that everyone who calls upon the name of Christ shall be saved?

I believe no one can induce people to believe it is Christ who waits at the end of manís spiritual quest Ė there is enough evidence God uniquely dialogues with each one of us. Itís a mystery most people ignore or dismiss. Only a few accept the divine invitation for an incomparable, lifelong relational adventure.

Profound theological arguments may refute this, but anyone who has glimpsed the hope of eternal salvation is soon unimpressed by the knowledge and piety of man, clergy or otherwise.When people surrender their hearts to Christ and discover sinís grip can be broken, they will not settle for a lofty religion that complicates life and brings no deliverance. Freedom does not always come instantly without trials, but people know it surely comes to broken hearts longing for their ďMaker.Ē

Alternatively some folks prefer to feel safe in the groupthink of organized belief, and uniformly follow something called religion. One way demands death to pride, the other offers the standard feel-good-about-myself religious experience and self-gratification with group membership in a club of sorts.

The idea that the God of the universe can be bribed with good works, piety, rituals and traditions has widespread acceptance, and millions are shackled and controlled by the idea, which the clergy easily manipulates.

But the scriptures mysteriously indicate that it is God who chooses us, (John 15: 16), offering the free gift of himself. We donít choose him. We can accept or reject him, but we cannot bribe our way to him using religion.

That pretty much describes authentic, divine, agape love.

So what is of greater worth Ė the truth that sets people free or the experience of being stuck in a lifelong religious rut?

The fact remains truly knowing Christ need have nothing to do with Christianity.

-article written by, Frank Raj

Edited by Caringheart - 29 June 2013 at 4:01pm

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

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