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Fire/Poison (the Poison STAB would be useless though)
Grass/Steel
Water/Psychic

Originally Posted by Josef Stylin

Originally Posted by Cevil

RIP Ash's dreams.

Who cares about his dream, the only character that should be feeling crushed right now is the Furfrou guy. Dude put all of his faith in Ash.

He looked like a male prostitute too, so he's probably crying his eyes out while standing around in shady street corners, which is bad for business because customers will be weirded out. Ash ruined his dreams and his job, what a terrible person.

Or combining the two type triangles of Fire/Grass/Water with Fighting/Dark/Psychic

Fire/Psychic
Grass/Dark
Water/Fighting

That way, the super effective triangle can go both ways!!

Originally Posted by Poetry

But then you're destroying the mechanic of your Rival taking the starter which is super effective against the one you chose. Rival battles would be made ridiculously easy in that respect, and they're not exactly a huge challenge as they are right now anyway.

Originally Posted by Wishing Star

It's been mentioned over ten times already that Dark-Psychic-Fighting isn't a type triangle... :/

If the sole intention for putting Dark, Psychic, and Fighting as secondary types for starters to make each of the three equal to each other but beat the other type as well as the type it already beats, it doesn't work.

Why? Fighting is neutral to itself, whereas Psychic and Dark are not very effective against themselves, which already proves that it doesn't work.

The rule about effectiveness/resistance triangle does not apply to final stage starters, as long as the initial stage stick to their respective fire/water/grass typing. Look at the Sinnoh starters, eventually Empoleon loses its resistance to fire and takes super effective from fighting, Torterra loses its resistance to water while Infernape remains weak to water and grass-resistant. Dark, fighting, psychic and ghost aren't impossible combinations now that they are more balanced (psychic especially), and I think a Dark type starter need not have to be viewed in a negative light. Ultimately it depends on how GF pulls it off, e.g. a mischievous, prankster Pokemon can be Dark type too.

On the other hand, I tend to see Dragon as a boss-like, powerful typing. A ~520 BST, starter with Dragon typing at level 36ish would probably garner way too much attention over the other two. And if they ever introduce a Dragon starter, fans of the big orange lizard would probably cry foul.

The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

On the other hand, I tend to see Dragon as a boss-like, powerful typing. A ~520 BST, starter with Dragon typing at level 36ish would probably garner way too much attention over the other two. And if they ever introduce a Dragon starter, fans of the big orange lizard would probably cry foul.

They most certainly won't make a Dragon-type starter. I mean, Dragon-type is resistant against every other starter-type, and it's arguably the best type of the game.

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this may sound crazy... but grass/fire/water starters are just fine. of course they're gonna add secondary types from time to time, but GF changing the actual types of the starters is a bit ridiculous to believe, i.e., it ain't gonna happen. i mean, it's the 3 elements. maybe we won't love them as much as the kanto starters, or blaziken, but changing the theme of the starters is silly. and I'm not trying to start a flame war either, but I'm just trying to be realistic. i do think introducing a second type triangle would be cool. they did kinda do that in sinnoh. but if they do another fire/fighting, i won't even want one to fill the pokedex. that's about the only thing that will upset me

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this may sound crazy... but grass/fire/water starters are just fine. of course they're gonna add secondary types from time to time, but GF changing the actual types of the starters is a bit ridiculous to believe, i.e., it ain't gonna happen. i mean, it's the 3 elements. maybe we won't love them as much as the kanto starters, or blaziken, but changing the theme of the starters is silly. and I'm not trying to start a flame war either, but I'm just trying to be realistic. i do think introducing a second type triangle would be cool. they did kinda do that in sinnoh. but if they do another fire/fighting, i won't even want one to fill the pokedex. that's about the only thing that will upset me

^You're sounding way more serious than any of the posters before you. Relax, no one is being upset over adding/replacing starter types.

On a different note, I don't really love Blaziken's design. Or even close to liking it. >.> As part of the Torchic family the transition from Combusken was too abrupt for me, and as a standalone I never really like its wing-like head structure, especially when viewed from its back.

The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

I think a lot of the suggestions of new types of starters are based on the desire of many people to have a strong Pokemon which has a certain typing (as opposed to the idea of having an upheaval of the current Grass/Fire/Water system). Starters are some of the strongest Pokemon available and this might be hinting at a real lack of variety of strong Pokemon. We've got plenty of single-typed strong Pokemon but very few with unusual or unique typings.

Originally Posted by Hidden Power

On a different note, I don't really love Blaziken's design. Or even close to liking it. >.> As part of the Torchic family the transition from Combusken was too abrupt for me, and as a standalone I never really like its wing-like head structure, especially when viewed from its back.

I'm a big fan of the Torchic line as it was my first ever starter and I have very fond memories of using it in game but I have to agree that Blaziken's design is a little... odd. I think just the idea of a fighting chicken is a slightly difficult one to conceive graphically. Gotta love its usage in game, though.

Was that really it? Will wondered. Was that what they were all doing, looking for someone less different? Was that what he was doing? Rachel was dynamic and thoughtful and focused and caring and different in more ways than he could count, but the whole point of Rachel, as far as Will was concerned, was that she wasn't him. There was a flaw in Katrina's logic, then. This thing about looking for someone less different ... It only really worked, he realised, if you were convinced that being you wasn't so bad in the first place.

I'm a big fan of the Torchic line as it was my first ever starter and I have very fond memories of using it in game but I have to agree that Blaziken's design is a little... odd. I think just the idea of a fighting chicken is a slightly difficult one to conceive graphically. Gotta love its usage in game, though.

Torchic was my first starter in RSE as well, and Blaziken is easily one of the easiest Pokemon to use, combining two of the most useful offensive typing in one single Pokemon. Not to mention that Blaze Kick is an aptly named fire move for it.

Looking at the list of Pokemon on Pokemondb though, Gen III seems to have the most usual Pokemon evolutions. Almost every family goes for a different shade of color, or a totally different color, or a totally different species altogether between each stage. The only ones I find more consistent are like, Sceptile, Swellow, Gardevoir, Aggron, Altaria, and Metagross' line.

The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

^You're sounding way more serious than any of the posters before you. Relax, no one is being upset over adding/replacing starter types.

On a different note, I don't really love Blaziken's design. Or even close to liking it. >.> As part of the Torchic family the transition from Combusken was too abrupt for me, and as a standalone I never really like its wing-like head structure, especially when viewed from its back.

sorry if i came across as serious. I've seen discussions like this go crazy. sure it's fine now. but then people talk about differetnt starters. then someone says "what do you think will be the starters for b3w3?" then someone will say "no, they've already confirmed r/s remakes." then someone would say "you're so stupid for believing those websites, the next game is gen VI" and then a heated debate starts and a mod steps in to take control. of course that's not happening now, and I'm sorry for being a debbie downer, but it tends to go that direction

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The rule about effectiveness/resistance triangle does not apply to final stage starters, as long as the initial stage stick to their respective fire/water/grass typing. Look at the Sinnoh starters, eventually Empoleon loses its resistance to fire and takes super effective from fighting, Torterra loses its resistance to water while Infernape remains weak to water and grass-resistant. Dark, fighting, psychic and ghost aren't impossible combinations now that they are more balanced (psychic especially), and I think a Dark type starter need not have to be viewed in a negative light. Ultimately it depends on how GF pulls it off, e.g. a mischievous, prankster Pokemon can be Dark type too.

The Sinnoh starters didn't get the second types that they did to solely make the triangle successfully go the other way; they only got them because it fit their design. Thus, it doesn't apply to them.

The person I was quoting wanted Dark, Psychic, and Fighting to be secondary types for the sole purpose of making the triangle successfully go the other way around while maintaining full type-wise balance between the three. Thus, because the secondary types would be there for the same reason the primary types are there, the starter trio rule applies here. I was pointing out how their idea didn't work.

]^You're sounding way more serious than any of the posters before you. Relax, no one is being upset over adding/replacing starter types[/B].

On a different note, I don't really love Blaziken's design. Or even close to liking it. >.> As part of the Torchic family the transition from Combusken was too abrupt for me, and as a standalone I never really like its wing-like head structure, especially when viewed from its back.

Um, he wasn't acting serious at all. You need to stop being so quick to judge. He was fine, you were just in a bad mood and had to be rude to him.

Mine is an unchanging love, higher than the heights above, deeper than the depths beneath, free and faithful, strong as death.

William Cowper, "Lovest Thou Me?" Olney Hymns

I choose my words carefully, but they may still hurt someone accidentally...

Marley, Pokemon Diamond and Pearl

And, look you, there is nothing in this thing of learning out of books. Here, here and here (pointing to his ear, his head and his heart) is your school. If everything is right there, then take your pen and down with it; afterward ask the opinion of a man who knows his business.

The Sinnoh starters didn't get the second types that they did to solely make the triangle successfully go the other way; they only got them because it fit their design. Thus, it doesn't apply to them.

The person I was quoting wanted Dark, Psychic, and Fighting to be secondary types for the sole purpose of making the triangle successfully go the other way around while maintaining full type-wise balance between the three. Thus, because the secondary types would be there for the same reason the primary types are there, the starter trio rule applies here. I was pointing out how their idea didn't work.

True, but like you said, secondary types are usually there for design, so hypothetically speaking if there were three good final stage starters designs for a secondary Dark, Psychic and Fighting to be utilized for one generation, why not? The possibility is there, just not for the same reason.

Originally Posted by Moonrox

Um, he wasn't acting serious at all. You need to stop being so quick to judge. He was fine, you were just in a bad mood and had to be rude to him.

He was sounding serious in that he thought the topic was likely to erupt into a flame war, I was casually telling him that the discussion was no where near that level of intensity, and you aren't very good at interpreting emotions on the internet, at least for my part. Yep.

The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

If I were to pick the types for a starter trio, without having the 2nd types form a triangle, I'd like to see:

Grass/Ghost
Fire/Poison
Water/Bug

Water/Bug is such a fantastic type, if only Surskit's stats were better and it kept that type and good stats/move pool when it evolved. I mean I love Masquerain but it really is crippled by that, so I'm all for a Water/Bug type that evolves twice.

Water/Bug is such a fantastic type, if only Surskit's stats were better and it kept that type and good stats/move pool when it evolved. I mean I love Masquerain but it really is crippled by that, so I'm all for a Water/Bug type that evolves twice.

Yep, one of those moments where I just can't help but ask "Why Game Freak, why?"

Design-wise, it's one of the weirder bug evolutions involving two different bug species, having a water strider evolve into a moth. Concept-wise, Masquerain's typing is a reference to how it's supposed to hate water, but if you read up on water striders on Wikipedia, Surskit shouldn't like water either; water striders moves on the water surface using its surface tension and keep itself from getting wet by virtue of hydrophobic hair lining its body.

But Game Freak still decided to give Surskit the unique water/bug typing only to take it away later because "Oh, Masquerain is supposed to be a water-hating flying moth..."

The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

Yep, one of those moments where I just can't help but ask "Why Game Freak, why?"

Design-wise, it's one of the weirder bug evolutions involving two different bug species, having a water strider evolve into a moth. Concept-wise, Masquerain's typing is a reference to how it's supposed to hate water, but if you read up on water striders on Wikipedia, Surskit shouldn't like water either; water striders moves on the water surface using its surface tension and keep itself from getting wet by virtue of hydrophobic hair lining its body.

But Game Freak still decided to give Surskit the unique water/bug typing only to take it away later because "Oh, Masquerain is supposed to be a water-hating flying moth..."

I'm sure Game Freak didn't give Surkit it's Water typing solely because they wanted to take it away.

Mine is an unchanging love, higher than the heights above, deeper than the depths beneath, free and faithful, strong as death.

William Cowper, "Lovest Thou Me?" Olney Hymns

I choose my words carefully, but they may still hurt someone accidentally...

Marley, Pokemon Diamond and Pearl

And, look you, there is nothing in this thing of learning out of books. Here, here and here (pointing to his ear, his head and his heart) is your school. If everything is right there, then take your pen and down with it; afterward ask the opinion of a man who knows his business.

I'm sure Game Freak didn't give Surkit it's Water typing solely because they wanted to take it away.

But the only purpose they've served back in Gen III was to act as dex filler, and play out its ecological role on that route with rainy weather. Once we're over and done with Gen III, neither Surskit nor Masquerain has anything permanently useful to offer players. Abysmal stats, common typing, and barely fits into any niche group for competitive metagame. I'm not sure what else GF had in mind for this Pokemon line other than the removal of its water typing to fit the description.

The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

But the only purpose they've served back in Gen III was to act as dex filler, and play out its ecological role on that route with rainy weather. Once we're over and done with Gen III, neither Surskit nor Masquerain has anything permanently useful to offer players. Abysmal stats, common typing, and barely fits into any niche group for competitive metagame. I'm not sure what else GF had in mind for this Pokemon line other than the removal of its water typing to fit the description.

The same could be said for a lot of other Pokemon in the games as well. I've never heard of the term 'dex filler' until now, and it seems like an awfully appropriate term for about 60% (rough estimate) of the Pokemon in the National Dex which serve no purpose except to... exist. The other 40% are commonly returned to again and again because either they're good to use in battle or because they remain fan favourites purely because they are famous in the fandom or because they have a good design. Looking through the National Dex now... I can honestly say that I have used only a small handful of these Pokemon myself in the games which I have played; with the majority of them currently rotting in PC boxes until they starve to death.

Was that really it? Will wondered. Was that what they were all doing, looking for someone less different? Was that what he was doing? Rachel was dynamic and thoughtful and focused and caring and different in more ways than he could count, but the whole point of Rachel, as far as Will was concerned, was that she wasn't him. There was a flaw in Katrina's logic, then. This thing about looking for someone less different ... It only really worked, he realised, if you were convinced that being you wasn't so bad in the first place.

The same could be said for a lot of other Pokemon in the games as well. I've never heard of the term 'dex filler' until now, and it seems like an awfully appropriate term for about 60% (rough estimate) of the Pokemon in the National Dex which serve no purpose except to... exist. The other 40% are commonly returned to again and again because either they're good to use in battle or because they remain fan favourites purely because they are famous in the fandom or because they have a good design. Looking through the National Dex now... I can honestly say that I have used only a small handful of these Pokemon myself in the games which I have played; with the majority of them currently rotting in PC boxes until they starve to death.

The good thing with having so many Pokemon nowadays is that 1) it's impossible to 'use' every single Pokemon, and 2) I don't actually like all the Pokemon designs, which turns out to be a good thing as I can limit my choices to the ones I like, trying out Pokemon of varying strength as long as they're appealing in design, rather than just using the commonly used powerhouses.

I've actually long given up on completing the dex because I no longer see the point of it. The only time I attempted it was on my first Yellow version game, buying a bunch of Pokeballs post-E4 and chucking at all the wild Pokemon I'm missing and training some of them to their evolved form. But a couple of generations later people should know that they can never complete the dex since you need to rinse and repeat the process with every new generation, and the process makes a mess of the PC storage.

The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

But the only purpose they've served back in Gen III was to act as dex filler, and play out its ecological role on that route with rainy weather. Once we're over and done with Gen III, neither Surskit nor Masquerain has anything permanently useful to offer players. Abysmal stats, common typing, and barely fits into any niche group for competitive metagame. I'm not sure what else GF had in mind for this Pokemon line other than the removal of its water typing to fit the description.

They didn't have in mind the removal of the type, it just didn't fit Masquerain as it did to Surskit. There's not such thing as Dex Filler. A few Pokémon are actually used in the metagame, but that doesn't mean that all the others are there with no reason.

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They didn't have in mind the removal of the type, it just didn't fit Masquerain as it did to Surskit. There's not such thing as Dex Filler. A few Pokémon are actually used in the metagame, but that doesn't mean that all the others are there with no reason.

Why wouldn't it fit Masquerain? Because Game Freak decided it to be so, based on the concept for it. Had Game Freak decided that Masquerain was to stick with the water/bug typing they would have just come up with an different conceptual reasoning for it, so it could have gone either way.

Of course there's no such official term as 'dex filler', it's just an informal term fans came up with that I've come across. It's not necessarily a negative term; afterall the game has to have its mandatory normal/flying bird, a few rodents, bugs, mammals, fish etc .to create an in-game ecological system and provide players with a variety of Pokemon to use, just that some of these end up having unique characteristics and/or battle potential to be sought after even in later generations.

I think all options to improve Masquerain has been exhausted, having given Quiver Dance, Baton Pass, Roost, as well as a DW ability that isn't better than Intimidate. It can't be helped that Masquerain remains in the lowest metagame tier with usage percentage less than half of Butterfree.

The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

Why wouldn't it fit Masquerain? Because Game Freak decided it to be so, based on the concept for it. Had Game Freak decided that Masquerain was to stick with the water/bug typing they would have just come up with an different conceptual reasoning for it, so it could have gone either way.

Of course there's no such official term as 'dex filler', it's just an informal term fans came up with that I've come across. It's not necessarily a negative term; afterall the game has to have its mandatory normal/flying bird, a few rodents, bugs, mammals, fish etc .to create an in-game ecological system and provide players with a variety of Pokemon to use, just that some of these end up having unique characteristics and/or battle potential to be sought after even in later generations.

I think all options to improve Masquerain has been exhausted, having given Quiver Dance, Baton Pass, Roost, as well as a DW ability that isn't better than Intimidate. It can't be helped that Masquerain remains in the lowest metagame tier with usage percentage less than half of Butterfree.

You consider Masquerain useless, but think Game Freak put that much thought into it?

Mine is an unchanging love, higher than the heights above, deeper than the depths beneath, free and faithful, strong as death.

William Cowper, "Lovest Thou Me?" Olney Hymns

I choose my words carefully, but they may still hurt someone accidentally...

Marley, Pokemon Diamond and Pearl

And, look you, there is nothing in this thing of learning out of books. Here, here and here (pointing to his ear, his head and his heart) is your school. If everything is right there, then take your pen and down with it; afterward ask the opinion of a man who knows his business.