Hiko's right re: Childress. Not sure who else y'all wanted them to get. Had to be someone Walrus was familiar with and someone who knew a WCO. Not really a laundry list of guys fitting that criteria who would want to come and be part of this shitaborshowtion.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

He knows the WCOHe worked under ReidHe is friends with WalrusHe is represented by Bob LaMonte

That is all you need to be a part of this confederacy of morons.

Is that you, Tony?

I can only assume that Holmgren did something personal to you in order for you to harbor such blind hatred. Counselling might be in order. Maybe some acupuncture. Past-life recall. Zoroastrianism.

No, just me. Other than the snarky bit at the end, what did I write that wasn't true? I know you're a member of the Walrus Uber Alles club, but are you seriously going to tell me that yet another Bob LoMonte hire doesn't make you go hmmmmmmmmm? At least a little bit?

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Hikohadon wrote:Just out of curiosity, Ye Who Be Flipping Out, who was it exactly you wanted them to hire (since it obviously wasn't The Human Muppet)?

And to answer the question, anyone with enough cache to be able to call the friggin' plays.

I have no confidence in Shurmer's ability to run an offense, therefore I have no confidence in his ability ot call plays. Again, looking histrically at Shurmer's record shows us that, well, the guys offenses don't really score points. Here, there, or anywhere.

I think, that what I want isn't gonna happen under this regime. Pretty clear it's not what you've done, it's who you know.

Holmgren, as of now, has done zero at the position he curently holds, anywhere in the NFL. Pat Shurmer was exactly on zero radars before his buddy came a callin'

I don't begrudge anyone OK with it. I'm not.

What's that person's name, though? Is he available? "Anyone that can call plays" is pretty vague. Childress has more experience than just about anyone out there. If Childress doesn't have the cache, who did?

I feel the same way as you about Shurmur's play calling.

I'm not necessarily "OK" with it, just not particularly moved one way or the other. It made total sense they would go this route. I'm not surprised. I'd already accepted another year of Shur.

For the record, I wanted Mike Sherman over Chilly, but he chose to take his talents to South Beach, so Chilly was an acceptable 2nd choice. Surround Shurmur with as many experienced people as possible - hope for a miracle.

Waiting for some sign of intelligence and wondering how you can turn this into "THIS IS GILBERT'S FAULT FOR WINNING AND GOING TO THE FINALS AND MAKING MONEY AND NOT SPENDING EVEN MORE AND I HATE HIM SO BAAAAAAAAAAD"

Now, kindly keep your inane ramblings and your tin foil hatting in the thread where it was at least contained.

mattvan1 wrote:No, just me. Other than the snarky bit at the end, what did I write that wasn't true? I know you're a member of the Walrus Uber Alles club, but are you seriously going to tell me that yet another Bob LoMonte hire doesn't make you go hmmmmmmmmm? At least a little bit?

I like that name. Not totally true, but if we must paint everything as Black & White...

I don't give a damn about the agent. Maybe they got a group discount. To me, Childress makes sense from an experience and familiarity standpoint, no matter if his agent is Bob LaMonte or Jerry Maguire.

Again... not excited, have reservations about Childress, don't know what else was out there that was better though, and if Holmgren & Company are gonna have the chance to either hang themselves or show they know what they're doing, then this move makes perfect sense.

I mean, didja think they were gonna bring in someone that doesn't run the system they have put all their stock in? Why would they do that? They have professed live or die by the way they want to do things, so we'll just see what happens.

Who they pick up in FA and the draft matters a helluva lot more to me than which WCO stooge they bring in to help Shurmur find his way out of a closet.

Last edited by Hikohadon on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hikohadon wrote:You will never be able to out-shout the Circle Jerk of Despair when it is in full throttle.

I, for one, embrace our new alien overlords.

I remember going to a game in Cincinnati back in 2000, and I remember thinking how pathetically bitter and angry and all-around negative the mood of that stadium was.

11ish years later, aaaaaaaaaaand there we are.

It's so bad that, really, it could even make a bad football move (like overpaying in a trade-up for Luck or RG3) a defensible move, because what this fanbase irrationally and stupidly seems to need most is a Savior, someone to write stupid songs about ("R-G, R-G. Oh, yeah! How you can throw! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, R-G, R-G, Oh Baby, Superbowl! ..."), someone's jersey to buy, that sort of thing.

Last edited by HoodooMan on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

mattvan1 wrote:No, just me. Other than the snarky bit at the end, what did I write that wasn't true? I know you're a member of the Walrus Uber Alles club, but are you seriously going to tell me that yet another Bob LoMonte hire doesn't make you go hmmmmmmmmm? At least a little bit?

I like that name. Not totally true, but if we must paint everything as Black & White...

I don't give a damn about the agent. Maybe they got a group discount. To me, Childress makes sense from an experience and familiarity standpoint, no matter if his agent is Bob LaMonte or Jerry Maguire.

Again... not excited, have reservations about Childress, don't know what else was out there that was better though, and if Holmgren & Company are gonna have the chance to either hang themselves or show they know what they're doing, then this move makes perfect sense.

I mean, didja think they were gonna bring in someone that doesn't run the system they have put all their stock in? Why would they do that? They have professed live or die by the way they want to do things, so we'll just see what happens.

No, I thought they would bring in someone who fit the criteria - and that was one of about 3 guys. So the Childress hire is not in any way a surprise. Just cannot believe peeps are all up in arms one way or the other. And like it or not, the agent is part of the criteria.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Waiting for some sign of intelligence and wondering how you can turn this into "THIS IS GILBERT'S FAULT FOR WINNING AND GOING TO THE FINALS AND MAKING MONEY AND NOT SPENDING EVEN MORE AND I HATE HIM SO BAAAAAAAAAAD"

Now, kindly keep your inane ramblings and your tin foil hatting in the thread where it was at least contained.

Your anticipated cooperation is appreciated.

Glad because of a few drunken tweets I've lost it to you, because you are the one lost, straight up. Either you straight forgot how to read me or you are so beat at this point you cannot read anything but black and white while speaking gray.

This is the story: Dolan and GIlbert and weird cousins, they both suck and they both want to make money at the end of the day from their franchises, this comes from non-billionaires buying sports franchises.

I hate seeing them compared to each other fiscally because end of the day both have the same goal.

Lerner, on the other hand, actually doesn't. He's a trust fund baby that holds the entire fortune (see Dolan, other, New York). He has no cares in the world and has no fault other than the fact that he cannot interview to hire for anything on earth. That said, his only fault it stupidity, guy tries, spends, tries somemore, etc.

Then walks in Holmes. Holmes has a track record and hires a good GM. His coaching hire is ass, his GM is taking the slow road to redemption, etc. Fans are overreacting to this because they see bad things coming with the coach in place combined with a slow rebuild (WHO CAN BLAME THEM). In this instance Lead and matt are reacting in a manor that reflects affirmation of this "agent gets his boys hired and who the fuck knows what happens because these guys all suck at football play calling" rather than clinging to "BUT THE GUY CAN DRAFT." Bow calls them h8ters. You call me angry. Etc... etc...

Gray shit exists and I live there more than you want to admit and matt lives there far more than hiko or bow want to admit.

But one person overreacts, the other draws a perma-conclusion and get a shit stew.

war: white dudes with keyboards

All I ask for is no one talking about Gilbert as some money burning funfest, all matt asks for is people acknowledging that this was a shit OC hire for a bad HC calling the plays without asking "WHO DO YOU SUGGEST!!!!" when honestly, that is why the fat fuck is getting billions a year.

We all have a middle we can reach. Be harsh reactions being met by overreactions spur.... motherscratcher

mattvan1 wrote:No, I thought they would bring in someone who fit the criteria - and that was one of about 3 guys. So the Childress hire is not in any way a surprise. Just cannot believe peeps are all up in arms one way or the other. And like it or not, the agent is part of the criteria.

I don't like it or not like it - I just don't give a fuck.

The agent angle to me is about furthering a talking point. So far, all of Holmgren's hires have been white males whose last names have between 6 and 9 letters that have either no facial hair or no hair on their heads. Let's beat the drums about that travesty while we're at it.

For all I know, they all have the same Proctologist. Christ in a handbasket, somebody call Tony Grossi!

When they start only signing/drafting players that have their agent, then I'll care.

Hikohadon wrote:The agent angle to me is about furthering a talking point. So far, all of Holmgren's hires have been white males whose last names have between 6 and 9 letters that have either no facial hair or no hair on their heads. Let's beat the drums about that travesty while we're at it.

My point.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a fucking bad existence let alone bad business. I hope you write for a living Hiko, because this is Peeker talking about Gilbert in a baseball thread about Fat Albert shit.

The agent angle is real, take what you want from it but writing it off as nothing is absurd. It means something, we just have no fucking clue what that thing is.

Hikohadon wrote:The agent angle to me is about furthering a talking point. So far, all of Holmgren's hires have been white males whose last names have between 6 and 9 letters that have either no facial hair or no hair on their heads. Let's beat the drums about that travesty while we're at it.

My point.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a fucking bad existence let alone bad business. I hope you write for a living Hiko, because this is Peeker talking about Gilbert in a baseball thread about Fat Albert shit.

The agent angle is real, take what you want from it but writing it off as nothing is absurd. It means something, we just have no fucking clue what that thing is.

All we know is that we struck gold or we struck limestone.

I don't say there's absolutely nothing to it, I'm just not interested.

It might also be important to you that Holmgren is hiring only white guys. This might be your personal "wrong du jour" to expose and bleat about. I just personally don't care about it.

All of the guys that have been hired are experienced and make total sense (well, maybe except Shurmur) within what Holmgren is trying to do. They've all worked together, they all share a philosophy. Do they all have the same agents? Are they all white? Do they all use the same brand of toothpaste? I DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

You can make a big deal about the agent thing for all I care, but I haven't seen one person yet have a field day with it that hasn't been predisposed to hate everything that Holmgren does and wants to use any and all weaponry of complaint against him. They all know each other, they all have worked together, maybe that agent reps a bunch more of the guys from that group, maybe that agent reps a ton of guys in the coaching fraternity, maybe they say "Hey, you need an agent? My guy is good." I DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

See, now I have to be cast in a role of "Holmgren defender" just because I have to say "So fucking what?" when someone goes apeshit that Holmgren is only hiring Christians, because to someone on the extreme right, the center = hippy.

Like I said before, wake me when this agent thing involves players. Because if Holmgren & Co don't get it done, they'll be gone in a couple years (no matter who their agent is), but a lot of the players will remain.

Hikohadon wrote: You can make a big deal about the agent thing for all I care, but I haven't seen one person yet have a field day with it that hasn't been predisposed to hate everything that Holmgren does and wants to use any and all weaponry of complaint against him. They all know each other, they all have worked together, maybe that agent reps a bunch more of the guys from that group, maybe that agent reps a ton of guys in the coaching fraternity, maybe they say "Hey, you need an agent? My guy is good." I DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

I'll put myself in the group (or one man wolf pack) that does not like the agent angle but is not necessarily a 100% Holmgren hater. I believe I was the guy who actually agreed with the lack of FA signings and like what Holmgren and Heckert have done in the draft. I also agreed with keeping Mangini, and said so at the time. So, this entire conversation is not about bashing everything the guy does - but it is a subset of the Shurmur hire threads, and it seems as if everyone is pretty consistent with their positions from 12 months ago - and I guess that is a good thing, in a way.

My whole point then, as it is now, is the criteria for hiring guys on the O side of the ball is so fucking narrow that there are never more than a mere handful of candidates from which to choose. Many here feel that is fine - Walrus knows what he wants and after all it's essentially his team and he can run it however the hell he decides. I see it as extremely short sighted. And that is really all there is to it.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

I don't know how a big a deal all these guys having the same agent is or isn't. However, I do agree that it gives off an foul odor. Certainly Holmgren has heard the rumblings around town concerning his good 'ol boy network. And to that he says; "Fuck you, I'll hire whomever I want...so long as Uncle Bob gets his cut" (another qualification appears to be a less than stellar resume).

Just further proof that Mikey gives no shit how he is perceived. And further proof that Randy Lerner is out of touch.

bookelly wrote:Don't worry, it's all part of the master plan to contend in 2035. Just be patient.

I'm with you Boo. I'm patient. All these haters are going to be pissed in 2035 when Holmgren refuses to give them playoff tickets.

Man. I'm hoping either you or I have met our fate by then just so I don't have to deal with you beyond that time.

Nostradamus and the Mayans are betting against us making it that far.

This hire just gets a shrug from me....can it really get any worse?

Speaking of worse, and maybe SLIGHTLY off topic....is it just me or is this THE WORST collection of Cleveland's sporting teams EVER? I dare someone to find a more disheartening and pathetic period of 3-5 years.

mattvan1 wrote:My whole point then, as it is now, is the criteria for hiring guys on the O side of the ball is so fucking narrow that there are never more than a mere handful of candidates from which to choose. Many here feel that is fine - Walrus knows what he wants and after all it's essentially his team and he can run it however the hell he decides. I see it as extremely short sighted. And that is really all there is to it.

So you don't like that the organization has been WCO-moulded by Holmgren. I think this is strange, but whatever.

What does this have to do with the agent, again?

Do you think it's the agent who's influenced Holmgren to go after WCO guys?

Do you think there are other WCO guys out there we haven't gone after because they're not represented by the same agent? Not merely that the WCO guys Holmgren is closest to happen to be represented by the same agent, but there's a WCO guy out there he would have otherwise wanted to hire, but didn't, because he isn't represented by his agent?

And if so, WT-holy-MF'ing-F is in it for Holmgren? He's intentionally hiring lesser coaching candidates...to please his agent. He has the audacity to keep these lesser coaching candidates, once they've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're horrible...to please his agent. He's risking his substantial reputation, built over several decades...to please his agent. He's improving his chances to fail in what may very well be his last football job...to please his agent.

Are they fucking, possibly, do you think? Holmgren & LaMonte? Maybe LaMante threatened to withhold the finest cock in all of football if Holmgren failed to satisfy his every desire? Or is it something less sexy, but more evil, like Mike & Bob had similar traumatic childhood experiences where their asses uncontrollably, explosively, and unpredictably spewed pounds and pounds of shit into their pants, into their beds, into anything within ten feet of them (if their ass happened to be uncovered at the time, or if the fabric of their pants was too thin or possibly stretched & worn at the back seam); and over time these repeated assbursts conditioned them to an extreme aversion to all-things-shit, the most relevant of which (at least to this conversation) being the color brown, which naturally for two men in the football business led them to despise the Cleveland Browns? (OMG, NO BROWN JERSEYZ THIS YEAR; THIS IS PROBABLY REAL!!!) And after years of scheming, the two of them finally managed to gain control of the franchise, with the nefarious intention of taking a really bad team and...keeping it a really bad team, by purposely hiring shitty coaches and drafting & signing shitty players, and Bob Bwahs while Mike Hahs while we all suffer from the fruits of their unchecked evil?

Also, is it possible that Bob LaMonte was behind the controlled demolition of the WTC, and that his motivation was to scare us all about the possible repercussions of not being represented by Bob LaMonte?

Hikohadon wrote: You can make a big deal about the agent thing for all I care, but I haven't seen one person yet have a field day with it that hasn't been predisposed to hate everything that Holmgren does and wants to use any and all weaponry of complaint against him. They all know each other, they all have worked together, maybe that agent reps a bunch more of the guys from that group, maybe that agent reps a ton of guys in the coaching fraternity, maybe they say "Hey, you need an agent? My guy is good." I DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

I'll put myself in the group (or one man wolf pack) that does not like the agent angle but is not necessarily a 100% Holmgren hater. I believe I was the guy who actually agreed with the lack of FA signings and like what Holmgren and Heckert have done in the draft. I also agreed with keeping Mangini, and said so at the time. So, this entire conversation is not about bashing everything the guy does - but it is a subset of the Shurmur hire threads, and it seems as if everyone is pretty consistent with their positions from 12 months ago - and I guess that is a good thing, in a way.

My whole point then, as it is now, is the criteria for hiring guys on the O side of the ball is so fucking narrow that there are never more than a mere handful of candidates from which to choose. Many here feel that is fine - Walrus knows what he wants and after all it's essentially his team and he can run it however the hell he decides. I see it as extremely short sighted. And that is really all there is to it.

We've had this discussion before and I still don't get where you're coming from.

Mike Holmgren is a WCO guy. He realizes that there are other ways to win, but he is most familiar with the WCO approach. He's used it with success everywhere he's gone, and it's being used with success around the league at present. Naturally, he's going to want to use a method to build this team that he feels is tried and true. Why would he not? Why would he just out of the blue decide to try something new when his normal way has worked for him every time in the past?

And also naturally, he's going to hire people that are familiar with his method, people that he's familiar with, people he trusts.

This is just logical.

Now, whether or not he will be successful here is highly debatable. Whether or not Shurmur is competent enough to actually achieve the things they are trying to create is highly debatable. Just because a guy understands and believes in your system doesn't mean he can execute it.

But I don't get for one minute the complaints that the Boss is bringing in "his" guys to run things "his" way, because I know if I were him, I'd do the same damn thing (although "my way" might not be the WCO, but that's neither here nor there).

My whole thing with it is that I just don't think Holmgren has any idea what he's doing. Most fans still want to give him the benefit of the doubt, even though the team has gone 7-25 and regressed (at best, made zero progress) since he took over.

He won a SB as a coach with a team that was handed to him by Ron Wolf. And then destroyed the team in Seattle after they gave him full control. If he wants to come down to the sidelines, I'm all for it. But running the whole org? Him and his stubborn ass attitude and Rolodex with six cards in it on his desk next to his framed photo of Bob LaMonte?

swerb wrote:And then destroyed the team in Seattle after they gave him full control.

He had 7 winning seasons in 10 years in Seattle, and he had a Super Bowl win stolen from him by the refs. This, for a franchise that hadn't had a winning season in any of the previous 8 years, and for which you had to go back to 1979 to get to their 7th winning season before his arrival.

swerb wrote:And then destroyed the team in Seattle after they gave him full control.

He had 7 winning seasons in 10 years in Seattle, and he had a Super Bowl win stolen from him by the refs. This, for a franchise that hadn't had a winning season in any of the previous 8 years, and for which you had to go back to 1979 to get to their 7th winning season before his arrival.

If that's destruction, please, Mike, destroy away!

I'm talking exclusively about the direction of the team after he wrestled away full control. Which was down. Every year until he "retired".

I'm not sure why Holmgren's coaching prowess should mean that he can run an org. Especially after we've seen guys like Butch and Mangenius here that can coach but couldn't put together a plan and the coaching and talent. And especially seeing that Walrus failed at it in Seattle.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

Holmes was hired with full-control and moved into pure mediocrity. He was "fired" from being GM in 2002 then went on a 6 year coaching bender that showed a lot of success and improvement till the franchise got Tressel style staled out under his system.

He was unanimously a failure as a GM in Seattle, no argument there, but he didn't wrestle control form anyone.

And no, rather than just running a WCO organization he's literally running a fraternity.

When Urban Meyer got hired at OSU everyone tried to nail down who all of his assistants would be and trace his past ties, people hit on like 40% of em because he went outside the box for coaching talent.

What connections does Sherman have to Miami?

Hiring guys that fit your style is one thing, but hiring out of a collection of 15 dudes who lived in the same frat house (LaMontatchya!!) is fucking sad and a joke.

swerb wrote:My whole thing with it is that I just don't think Holmgren has any idea what he's doing. Most fans still want to give him the benefit of the doubt, even though the team has gone 7-25 and regressed (at best, made zero progress) since he took over.

I'll ignore the rest of your rant since you're too intelligent to be held responsible for something like that. Maybe you just stubbed your toe or found out your car needs a new transmission.

Holmgren is exactly one year into his "program". Year One was wasted on the Mangini Experiment. The only thing the Holmgren regime did in Year One was acquire some players. Implementing the WCO system? Nada.

So his people has had one year (sans offseason) to put their shit into place.

I think any rational human being might be inclined to give someone with Holmgren's track record the benefit of the doubt after such a brief time.

Now, I can totally understand the Shurmur frustration, since he has been pretty disastrous in his first season. And I can see feeling like Holmgren hiring Shurmur = Holmgren is incompetent.

But we must remember that his "way" has had ONE year, his people have had ONE year, and even as bad as Shurmur was, it's freakin' insane to scream for a reboot already.

And it ain't happening anyway in 2012 anyway. Pissing in the wind, et al.

swerb wrote:I'm talking exclusively about the direction of the team after he wrestled away full control. Which was down. Every year until he "retired".

e0's right about him losing full control rather than wrestling it away, but he had one bad year to close out his time in Seattle; before that he'd won 10, 9, 13, 9, 10. That doesn't seem like a downward trend to me. That looks like sustained success.

Hikohadon wrote:Holmgren is exactly one year into his "program". Year One was wasted on the Mangini Experiment. The only thing the Holmgren regime did in Year One was acquire some players. Implementing the WCO system? Nada.

So his people has had one year (sans offseason) to put their shit into place.

Now this is fucking idiocracy.

Holmes used year one with Mangini to get dumb fucks to say exactly what you just said (not calling you dumb!!!).

Acquiring players that fit his style year one, which is what he did, counts every bit as much as having his bullshit coaching staff in place. Fucking look at the difference a good coach made in SF this year? Coaching talent can walk into talented players and will make something happen, it's not like Holmes wasted a year drafting a bunch of 3-4/power running O players for Mangini.

swerb wrote:I'm talking exclusively about the direction of the team after he wrestled away full control. Which was down. Every year until he "retired".

e0's right about him losing full control rather than wrestling it away, but he had one bad year to close out his time in Seattle; before that he'd won 10, 9, 13, 9, 10. That doesn't seem like a downward trend to me. That looks like sustained success.

He was Sweatervest, pro-version in Seattle and that is what Swerb is referring too. A good team that was fun and okay, but never really elite after Alexander died, stud-O line become okay and Matty H didn't have a career year.

Hikohadon wrote:Holmgren is exactly one year into his "program". Year One was wasted on the Mangini Experiment. The only thing the Holmgren regime did in Year One was acquire some players. Implementing the WCO system? Nada.

So his people has had one year (sans offseason) to put their shit into place.

Acquiring players that fit his style year one, which is what he did, counts every bit as much as having his bullshit coaching staff in place.

I'm not calling you stupid either, but that statement sure is.

He's clearly had 2 years of talent acquisition, and talent trumps all. But the Browns didn't start with as much talent as SF, and he's only had one year of installing his system. I'd give almost anyone a 2nd year to prove that they can implement their system, even Shurmur (although I have huge doubts about him).

e0y2e3 wrote:Fucking look at the difference a good coach made in SF this year? Coaching talent can walk into talented players and will make something happen, it's not like Holmes wasted a year drafting a bunch of 3-4/power running O players for Mangini.

No shit.

But those players they acquired still had to run the 3-4. They still had to run whatever the fuck that Daboll thought he was running.

None of the current coaches were here. The system wasn't here. No one was running that system.

So in what way, pray tell, did that first year involve Holmgren implementing "his" system? They were secretly teaching them the basics of the WCO while Mangini wasn't looking?

I didn't say that Holmgren wasn't 2 years into his "regime". I said he's not 2 years into his "system". He completely wasted that first year, and he should be held responsible for that.

Hikohadon wrote:Holmgren is exactly one year into his "program". Year One was wasted on the Mangini Experiment. The only thing the Holmgren regime did in Year One was acquire some players. Implementing the WCO system? Nada.

So his people has had one year (sans offseason) to put their shit into place.

Acquiring players that fit his style year one, which is what he did, counts every bit as much as having his bullshit coaching staff in place.

I'm not calling you stupid either, but that statement sure is.

He's clearly had 2 years of talent acquisition, and talent trumps all. But the Browns didn't start with as much talent as SF, and he's only had one year of installing his system. I'd give almost anyone a 2nd year to prove that they can implement their system, even Shurmur (although I have huge doubts about him).

e0y2e3 wrote:Fucking look at the difference a good coach made in SF this year? Coaching talent can walk into talented players and will make something happen, it's not like Holmes wasted a year drafting a bunch of 3-4/power running O players for Mangini.

No shit.

But those players they acquired still had to run the 3-4. They still had to run whatever the fuck that Daboll thought he was running.

None of the current coaches were here. The system wasn't here. No one was running that system.

So in what way, pray tell, did that first year involve Holmgren implementing "his" system? They were secretly teaching them the basics of the WCO while Mangini wasn't looking?

I didn't say that Holmgren wasn't 2 years into his "regime". I said he's not 2 years into his "system". He completely wasted that first year, and he should be held responsible for that.

Honestly, when is the last time the system implementation argument was valid in the NFL?

You can play or you can't at this point in the league. Teams like the Pats and Rats switch between the 3-4 and 4-3 every other year, teams decide to run a WCO Holmes style for entire training camps for Kevin Kolb, realize he sucks, then implement a Vick WCO.

You're regurgitating a bullshit talking point.

Talent trumps all, but coaches either know how to use talent or they don't.

I'm not arguing against giving Holmes and crew more time, BTW, just saying that this "one year!!" argument is silly. I tend to agree with DooDoo, might as well give Holmes all the time in the world, because if this "system" fails your up for another year of roster purging and two more years of talent acquisition just to get back to square now.

-When the time comes for Holmgren to put together a coaching staff, he hires some of those treelings, because they're his guys, and NFL people generally seem to like to surround themselves with their own guys

Nothing shadowy or suspicious. Just a mundane, who gives a shit, common thread.

e0y2e3 wrote:He was Sweatervest, pro-version in Seattle and that is what Swerb is referring too. A good team that was fun and okay, but never really elite after Alexander died, stud-O line become okay and Matty H didn't have a career year.

5 straight playoff appearances. Should have won a Super Bowl.

With Matt Hasselbeck. <--Something, I'm told, likely isn't possible.

Trashing Holmgren's record before he got here isn't the path to undermining what he's done since he's been here. It just isn't.

e0y2e3 wrote:Honestly, when is the last time the system implementation argument was valid in the NFL?

You can play or you can't at this point in the league. Teams like the Pats and Rats switch between the 3-4 and 4-3 every other year, teams decide to run a WCO Holmes style for entire training camps for Kevin Kolb, realize he sucks, then implement a Vick WCO.

You're regurgitating a bullshit talking point.

Talent trumps all, but coaches either know how to use talent or they don't.

I'm not arguing against giving Holmes and crew more time, BTW, just saying that this "one year!!" argument is silly. I tend to agree with DooDoo, might as well give Holmes all the time in the world, because if this "system" fails your up for another year of roster purging and two more years of talent acquisition just to get back to square now.

I tend to agree with you. Talent trumps system. Good coaching can overcome deficiencies.

My point was made towards the aspersion that Holmgren is 7-25 since he came here (9-23). Mangini was 5-11 - that was clearly a Holmgren mistake b/c that season was clearly not the way he wanted things to run. So, doing the things the way HE wants done, Holmgren & Co are 4-12. Shitty, yes. One year of data, yes.

But if you want to count the Mangini year as "the way Holmgren wants to run things", then you go ahead. I don't give a shit.

Personally, I hold "letting Mangini stay and do things his way" more against Holmgren than if Holmgren had hired Shurmur in 2010 and gotten 5-11 and 4-12 seasons, since at least he would've been doing things the way he thought they should be done and just not getting it done rather than letting some guy stick around just to be nice even though you have serious questions about the way he does things.

It don't matter anyway - if Holmgren & Co fail then we all agree that we might as well go out and shoot ourselves.

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:You get Eli Manning and Tom Brady to agree with that and I'll cry uncle....

The truth is on the field and in the highlight reels and I shouldn't need to list their names...

Throw it to a spot....go up and get it

Its been the rule since the days of John Hadl and Bambi

Twist, turn, extend, sacrifice...the names may change and the drafte slots may vary but, exemplary play is the common denominator

...and FTR I'm all about RG3 and Wright in the 1st rnd

Please don't interpret me as saying WR aren't important and are as interchangeable as lightbulbs.

It's just that their production is completely and wholly dependent on the QB's ability to get them the ball. Sure, they have to get open, sure, they have to outfight the DB for the ball, but if the QB doesn't throw it to them or throws it inaccurately, it doesn't matter what they do.

Waiting for some sign of intelligence and wondering how you can turn this into "THIS IS GILBERT'S FAULT FOR WINNING AND GOING TO THE FINALS AND MAKING MONEY AND NOT SPENDING EVEN MORE AND I HATE HIM SO BAAAAAAAAAAD"

Now, kindly keep your inane ramblings and your tin foil hatting in the thread where it was at least contained.

Your anticipated cooperation is appreciated.

Glad because of a few drunken tweets I've lost it to you, because you are the one lost, straight up. Either you straight forgot how to read me or you are so beat at this point you cannot read anything but black and white while speaking gray.

This is the story: Dolan and GIlbert and weird cousins, they both suck and they both want to make money at the end of the day from their franchises, this comes from non-billionaires buying sports franchises.

I hate seeing them compared to each other fiscally because end of the day both have the same goal.

Lerner, on the other hand, actually doesn't. He's a trust fund baby that holds the entire fortune (see Dolan, other, New York). He has no cares in the world and has no fault other than the fact that he cannot interview to hire for anything on earth. That said, his only fault it stupidity, guy tries, spends, tries somemore, etc.

Then walks in Holmes. Holmes has a track record and hires a good GM. His coaching hire is ass, his GM is taking the slow road to redemption, etc. Fans are overreacting to this because they see bad things coming with the coach in place combined with a slow rebuild (WHO CAN BLAME THEM). In this instance Lead and matt are reacting in a manor that reflects affirmation of this "agent gets his boys hired and who the fuck knows what happens because these guys all suck at football play calling" rather than clinging to "BUT THE GUY CAN DRAFT." Bow calls them h8ters. You call me angry. Etc... etc...

Gray shit exists and I live there more than you want to admit and matt lives there far more than hiko or bow want to admit.

But one person overreacts, the other draws a perma-conclusion and get a shit stew.

war: white dudes with keyboards

All I ask for is no one talking about Gilbert as some money burning funfest, all matt asks for is people acknowledging that this was a shit OC hire for a bad HC calling the plays without asking "WHO DO YOU SUGGEST!!!!" when honestly, that is why the fat fuck is getting billions a year.

We all have a middle we can reach. Be harsh reactions being met by overreactions spur.... motherscratcher

Translation: I'm the smartest guy in the room. I'm going to blame others for my dumbass Gilbert hate in a Prince Fielder thread, I shall try and confuse some of you idiots by blending in some thoughts and opinions of others in a completely different thread to cover my dumbass remarks in that other thread and how dare you question me when sentence number one still applies. I'm also to to scold people for disagreeing with the douchebaggiest method of telling them they're not that dumb and I will continue to ignore the issue that my initial Gilbert take was folly with no basis in fact, history or actuality and that I'm scrambling like a mofo to not look like a bigger tool.

There. I'll stop with the amateur (and accurate) translations when you come correct one way or the other. Otherwise, stick with scarecrows and revisionist history even though the thread is right there for all to see.

Oh... As to Childress and so we remain on topic: still don't give a shit. This organization will get it right or theyll get it wrong. Count me as a Hiko/Bow blend in terms of this move and the RGIII need and a Lead Pipe/Matt/Swerb blend on the org (with just enough of a Bow/Hiko hedge to hold out hope). Plus I mentioned some big hitters in a positive light and maybe we're now board allies!!!!!!!!!!! See, I don't ignore the good and 'clever' things you do. It's you that can't read me any more, amigo.

peeker643 wrote: Count me as a Hiko/Bow blend in terms of this move and the RGIII need and a Lead Pipe/Matt/Swerb blend on the org (with just enough of a Bow/Hiko hedge to hold out hope). Plus I mentioned some big hitters in a positive light and maybe we're now board allies!!!!!!!!!!! See, I don't ignore the good and 'clever' things you do. It's you that can't read me any more, amigo.

Salud!!!!!

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

-When the time comes for Holmgren to put together a coaching staff, he hires some of those treelings, because they're his guys, and NFL people generally seem to like to surround themselves with their own guys

Nothing shadowy or suspicious. Just a mundane, who gives a shit, common thread.

The End

As an observation that makes you go bat shit crazy in defending the Walrus regime, the "LaMonte opening" will go down in history as a classical first move gambit.

Doing a bit of research on the man now - and not sure it's worthy of the Warren Commission, but not sure it's quite as innocuous as you make it out to be. Again, as Lee wrote above - it's a small fraternity from which the Walrus draws his charges. And as you suggest above, there is probably nothing wrong with that. But anyone who suggests that Big Mike is too inwardly focused gets the death penalty for having un-loyal thoughts.

And BTW, NFL people tend to surround themselves with people who will make them successful, not necessarily another Delta Tau Chi brother.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Gotta have faith in the Walrus. Needed an OC and we got one. Could we have gotten a better one? Maybe, but we coulda done worse (I think). For some reason, the market for coaches right now is dental floss thin. It's really hard to predict how this will turn out mainly because this years draft might be the biggest the new team has ever had. I think the Browns will improve; the question is how much? Hopefully they bring themselves at least up to mediocrity; that's a start.

mattvan1 wrote:As an observation that makes you go bat shit crazy in defending the Walrus regime, the "LaMonte opening" will go down in history as a classical first move gambit.

Doing a bit of research on the man now - and not sure it's worthy of the Warren Commission, but not sure it's quite as innocuous as you make it out to be. Again, as Lee wrote above - it's a small fraternity from which the Walrus draws his charges. And as you suggest above, there is probably nothing wrong with that. But anyone who suggests that Big Mike is too inwardly focused gets the death penalty for having un-loyal thoughts.

And BTW, NFL people tend to surround themselves with people who will make them successful, not necessarily another Delta Tau Chi brother.

So your assertion is that Holmgren is purposely selecting people that are not what he feels are the best candidates for the job in order to grease his agent's palms and surround himself with yes-men?

mattvan1 wrote:As an observation that makes you go bat shit crazy in defending the Walrus regime, the "LaMonte opening" will go down in history as a classical first move gambit.

Doing a bit of research on the man now - and not sure it's worthy of the Warren Commission, but not sure it's quite as innocuous as you make it out to be. Again, as Lee wrote above - it's a small fraternity from which the Walrus draws his charges. And as you suggest above, there is probably nothing wrong with that. But anyone who suggests that Big Mike is too inwardly focused gets the death penalty for having un-loyal thoughts.

And BTW, NFL people tend to surround themselves with people who will make them successful, not necessarily another Delta Tau Chi brother.

So your assertion is that Holmgren is purposely selecting people that are not what he feels are the best candidates for the job in order to grease his agent's palms and surround himself with yes-men?

Is there any exploding paint involved?

No and no.

Next question.

ETA - What part of "as you suggest, there is probably nothing wrong with that" is unclear? Not sure I ever said that LaMonte ran things in Berea or that he controlled Holmgren's thoughts or was slipping LSD into the drinking water on Lou Groza Blvd. All I did was point out that LaMonte representation seemed to be part of the Walrus hiring criteria and that it made me go hmmmmmmmmmm. You and Bow/Hoo Doo are convinced it doesn't matter and/or don't give a fuck. I think it's at the very least worth mentioning and also a bit troublesome. The angst surrounding the discussion is confusing - I guess we each feel the other is suffering from some type of brain dysfunction for not seeing things the "right" way.

The good news is since the staff is in place through the end of 2012 at least, we can push the "LaMonte Conspiracy Theory" to the back burner for awhile.

Last edited by mattvan1 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team