Welcome to Echoing the Sound. You'll find that quite a few things have changed here since the last iteration of the board so be sure to check out the FAQ. This is a completely fresh start - You'll need to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed (and look for the registration email in your spam folder). To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

I remember the time he insulted David Bowie a long time ago after opening for Bowie in late '95/early '96 or something and said Bowie was more about business than music (not exactly true) and shit. If I ever come across Morrissey, I'd like to kick him in the nuts and say "that's for Bowie you wanker".

i would find his deposition hilarious, not to cast judgement in any direction but, i can't do impressions but, the young black man is Hollywood, seeks the white pussy and will attempt to get it by what ever means.
-Louie

Ok.
With this one, at this point, I think he might have trouble reading social cues or something; as in, he maybe thought he was flirting with these women.
Obviously, admittedly, I REALLY don't want to accept this. I generally don't give these people the benefit of the doubt. (But I'm giving it to Freeman.) And I may well be wrong.

This one's gonna be interesting. I don't think I'm going to be the only one who is crying "does not compute" on this one.

The only person who I think is more unimpeachable than Freeman is Tom Hanks.

My prediction? True or not, for better or worse, people aren't gonna buy this or at least will downplay it.

Quite naturally!
I'm sorry for the lack of clarity; pardon me.
I guess what I mean is more like that he thought they were BOTH flirting, or at least that his advances weren't unwanted.

This is what I mean by "trouble reading social cues."
I don't think there was anything sinister behind it
I would guess that the man is currently thinking "OH SHIT! I TOTALLY misread those situations! I'm so embarrassed!" vs. "Oh fuck, those dumb bitches told on me."

Of course
@playwithfire
: I hope you understand what I meant now, but keep in mind- I said these things with a LOT of caveats. I DAMN sure could be TOTALLY wrong; I realize that.

BUT:
This is crossing into rough territory for me.
I see Freeman as a shining paragon of what it means to be a good human being and he's the first of the accused in that ballpark for me. He's up there with Tom Hanks, Nelson Mandela, Obama, and Saint Paul (seriously.)

I mean, I don't think this makes it okay but like... "winning women over" is totally, at least historically, a reinforced dynamic when it comes to flirting. It's gross and shitty, but like, Mad Men, etc, yeah? Freeman is 80. I don't know how much he cares if the other women were "interested" but what I would posit is that he likely thought his behavior was fine, especially given mentions in the article of him getting all weird when he was asked to stop. Just some gross "good old boy" shit.

And like, I think this is a great example of why this shit all exists on a spectrum. Freeman is not Weinstein. He still deserves to be called out. It's a different kind of bad.

The few remaining folks who would really hurt for me are Hanks, James Gunn, Bourdain, Trent, Rollins, I think.

I mean, I don't think this makes it okay but like... "winning women over" is totally, at least historically, a reinforced dynamic when it comes to flirting. It's gross and shitty, but like, Mad Men, etc, yeah? Freeman is 80. I don't know how much he cares if the other women were "interested" but what I would posit is that he likely thought his behavior was fine, especially given mentions in the article of him getting all weird when he was asked to stop. Just some gross "good old boy" shit.

And like, I think this is a great example of why this shit all exists on a spectrum. Freeman is not Weinstein. He still deserves to be called out. It's a different kind of bad.

Good points here.
I think you're probably absolutely spot on.

As for me, I'm terrified of David Lynch being accused. He often seems a little overly affectionate with his actresses. But at the same time, they seem to ADORE him and often work with him repeatedly.
Still, I've worried about him being accused.
Trent: dear god, no, that can't happen. That would create a fucking existential crisis for me.

And Hanks: dear god, is there ANYONE who doesn't like him?
Him turning out to be some sort of predator would take away all of my remaining faith in humanity.

I mean, I don't think this makes it okay but like... "winning women over" is totally, at least historically, a reinforced dynamic when it comes to flirting. It's gross and shitty, but like, Mad Men, etc, yeah? Freeman is 80. I don't know how much he cares if the other women were "interested" but what I would posit is that he likely thought his behavior was fine, especially given mentions in the article of him getting all weird when he was asked to stop. Just some gross "good old boy" shit.

The problem with rationalizing it this way is that many, many, many people STILL teach the lesson of "if at first you don't succeed, just keep trying even harder to win someone over" instead of "if at first you don't succeed, respect that decision and move on with your life". So reducing it to being less of a problem because that's the climate he grew up in means reducing it for pretty much everyone who engages in that behavior, regardless of age. Just go see a new movie or watch a current sitcom. "Keep trying" is still the predominant mantra told to men when they get turned down. Until that changes on a massive cultural level - which I think will take decades, sadly - using that as an excuse to be disrespectful to people just doesn't work.

The problem with rationalizing it this way is that many, many, many people STILL teach the lesson of "if at first you don't succeed, just keep trying even harder to win someone over" instead of "if at first you don't succeed, respect that decision and move on with your life". So reducing it to being less of a problem because that's the climate he grew up in means reducing it for pretty much everyone who engages in that behavior, regardless of age. Just go see a new movie or watch a current sitcom. "Keep trying" is still the predominant mantra told to men when they get turned down. Until that changes on a massive cultural level - which I think will take decades, sadly - using that as an excuse to be disrespectful to people just doesn't work.

Oh, I'm absolutely not rationalizing it or saying it's "less of a problem." Just because something is explainable doesn't mean it's excusable, but it's absolutely a datapoint. In fact, I'd say that a continuous problematic part of discussions around this is that people frame this behavior as surprising or "acting out" when the fact is that culturally, this behavior is supported and systemic. Societally, while we're certainly evolving, this shit is normalized and men get tons of messaging that supports this kind of behavior and that absolutely was even more extreme years ago (see the slow push to outlaw marital rape, etc.).

To frame men being guilty of harassment and an abuser as "wow, didn't see this coming" is dismissing how commonplace and pathological these sets of behaviors are. Similarly, it's important to allow for a spectrum when it comes to how we deal with this shit because otherwise, we can't effectively reckon with how this shit happens and how we change, if the ruler by which we measure only allows for the most extreme of violations. That shit allows us to distance ourselves from the fact that we're all so often complicit in how fucked these dynamics are, and the need for thorough changes in how we relate to this.

Elevenism insinuated that he hoped Freeman may have meant well or thought his behavior was reciprocal (correct me if I interpreted that wrong, elevenism), to which I'd say, I'm sure that's possible. That's not *rationalizing it* any more than it's rationalizing the way white people in the south thought it was normal and okay to have black household servants. Positive intent can still be incredibly harmful, and is often cemented in systemic oppression.

I'm surprised, given my post history and the fact that we occupy enough threads together, that you interpreted my post that way.

As for me, I'm terrified of David Lynch being accused. He often seems a little overly affectionate with his actresses. But at the same time, they seem to ADORE him and often work with him repeatedly.
Still, I've worried about him being accused.
Trent: dear god, no, that can't happen. That would create a fucking existential crisis for me.

And Hanks: dear god, is there ANYONE who doesn't like him?
Him turning out to be some sort of predator would take away all of my remaining faith in humanity.

Hell, this Morgan Freeman business is bade enough.

The whole business with Pete Townshend 15 years ago toughened me up to the fact that my heroes are as vulnerable to being pulled down in the shit (whether it's deserved or not) as anyone else. He was ultimately proven innocent of anything beyond the very stupid mistake of giving his bank information to the rotten people he had hoped to take down himself.

The whole business with Pete Townshend 15 years ago toughened me up to the fact that my heroes are as vulnerable to being pulled down in the shit (whether it's deserved or not) as anyone else. He was ultimately proven innocent of anything beyond the very stupid mistake of giving his bank information to the rotten people he had hoped to take down himself.

Yeah I hear that.
I kind of try to separate the artist from the work as a rule.
I went to see type o negative when I was like 16 or 17 and they kept trying to get my girlfriend and her friend backstage, without me of course.
Of course, the band may not have known they were underage, but I have a feeling that they wouldn't have cared.

Sleeping with underage women was once suuuuuper normalized to a degree that we don't acknowledge now, I think. Like, people got so mad that Bowie slept with an underage groupie (and let's be real, there were definitely multiple instances of shit like that) but they dismiss that... so did Iggy Pop, so did lots of people. Is it okay? Fuck no. Was it considered socially acceptable to a greater degree then, than it is now? Yes.

I remember reading about what was essentially a coup over Lee's estate, that his caring longterm assistant/right hand guy was canned and the person now running his day-to-day life doesn't have his interests at heart.

If you're a nearly a century old and start losing your faculties, there are people willing to step in and take advantage. It's nothing new, but sad to see for someone as brilliant and imaginative as Stan Lee.