Fat Boy ????

Megan,it`s ok to say he`s a trifling , little piece of "fill in the blank" bull topping out at about 1300 lb as a coming 3 yr old in Jan...that most would never have on their place...too much bw for a heifer bull, 22% inbred, but all early indications are his female progeny will recreate his dam...

the characteristics, not the picture...

pukerimu

Posts : 246Join date : 2012-06-02Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:53 pm

MKeeney wrote:

the characteristics, not the picture...

Both would do for me Mike - that is our kind of cow!!!!

RobertMac

Posts : 377Join date : 2010-09-28Location : Mississippi, USA

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:20 pm

I thought you said we couldn't breed for fertility? Why Jersey? Looks like a bull!

MKeeneyAdmin

Posts : 4624Join date : 2010-09-21

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:57 pm

"RobertMac"I thought you said we couldn't breed for fertility?

I should clarify or correct the fertility statement; I`m breeding for the type LL and Bonsma deemed fertile...Why Jersey?

beef jersey

Looks like a bull! :

Robert, I understand now why you don`t breed for type...if you can`t tell the type difference between a beef jersey and a pharo pud-a-dud

RobertMac

Posts : 377Join date : 2010-09-28Location : Mississippi, USA

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:53 pm

Fertility is not a type, its a function. Environment determines the type when fertility is essential with in that environment. If I had Kentucky blue grass or NZ ryegrass, my type would be different. Probably why my cattle aren't black and have some ear.

MKeeneyAdmin

Posts : 4624Join date : 2010-09-21

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:06 am

RobertMac wrote:

Fertility is not a type, its a function. Environment determines the type when fertility is essential with in that environment. If I had Kentucky blue grass or NZ ryegrass, my type would be different. Probably why my cattle aren't black and have some ear.

I suspect your type is very close to the same...the fertile type cow is the same every where; stocking rate changes in different environments , but not type... form follows function; if your function is fertility, the type will be there...black is a color, and ear is a characteristic; neither changes the type...

Fertility is not a type, its a function. Environment determines the type when fertility is essential with in that environment. If I had Kentucky blue grass or NZ ryegrass, my type would be different. Probably why my cattle aren't black and have some ear.

Robert, describe your most fertile cow. Does she get mistaken for a bull from a distance? Is she fat? Is she heavily muscled? Does she have hams like a hog? Would she win a show if the sawdust was dyed green? What does her full brothers, half brothers, sons look like?

Your cows also have extra skin, no doubt with more height, length and less overall thickness than a KY, NZ or SC average cow. That does not matter either in fertility as much as in environmental fit for the hot and humid climate. And I would bet that the feet look a bit different to handle the standing water if you have pastures prone to that. I am not sure if the feet are different due to the breeding or the effects of the wet environment. If you want to add additional heat dissipation you might want to raise horned cattle and not dehorn them.

The grasses your cattle eat are more marginal in energy than forages in cooler climates (same here in the summer) but does that affect fertility or production more? I vote for the production answer if the cattle are not either oversized or selected improperly for the environment.

The big question is not if you, Mike or I can select a fertile cow by type but if we can select the cows and bulls to make more of them.

The bulls like Fat Boy over in NZ have to weigh more so as to not get blown off of the big hill when the wind gusts!

Grassfarmer

Posts : 850Join date : 2010-09-27Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:06 am

So how do you assess the line if your "beef jersey" bull out of a cow line that are all the "right" type has two younger sisters that are less the right type, more the pharo pud-a-dud type?

MKeeneyAdmin

Posts : 4624Join date : 2010-09-21

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:37 pm

Eddie, I`m not sure about the wind thing...Pete`s sail does not catch much wind

Grassy,it wouldn`t make me happy...but you could always sell the culls to Coffelt well, if they have "papers"

EddieM

Posts : 895Join date : 2010-09-24Location : South Carolina

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:19 pm

MK wrote:

Eddie, I`m not sure about the wind thing...Pete`s sail does not catch much wind

That's because he can hide behind the cows.

Grassfarmer

Posts : 850Join date : 2010-09-27Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:19 pm

MKeeney wrote:

Grassy,it wouldn`t make me happy...but you could always sell the culls to Coffelt well, if they have "papers"

But that's getting back to sorting again. If this pair pan out the way they are looking now I will have no hesitation culling but it makes me nervous awaiting the outcome of the bull's first daughters calving next spring.

Took some pictures on a foggy morning with my phone so they aren't too clear.

My Luing Jersey bull, 4 year old.

His full sister a year younger. About enough milk to feed a cat, weaned a sorry calf last fall and this one isn't doing great either. I think we suffer from the "fat heifer calf syndrome" where they lay down too much fat in the udder because their mother was too milky - do you not experience that with these Angus cows that look milkier that my cows? Maybe the Angus has more volume, less quality in the milk? or maybe mine are just predisposed to getting over fat?

The full sister 2 years younger. Calved as a heifer this year but shouldn't have if I'd had my bulls pulled in time - the very last calved in the herd - not impressive.

Seems the sisters are fat, one is a poor milker and the other with low fertility. Any guesses how will the bull's offspring turn out?

MKeeneyAdmin

Posts : 4624Join date : 2010-09-21

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:18 am

Iain, the milky cow-dry daughter seems to be an sequence I`ve missed; but has been talked about for years..."generation skip" I think some called it...the bwf cow always superior milking/ww of calf, when created by an Angus bull on a Hereford cow , rather than the reciprocal; theory being less milk in the Hereford makes for a better replacement heifer; lends evidence to the idea that these two cows are more maternal environment influenced than by sire...but I know that `s not very reassuring about using a bull again...

Grassfarmer

Posts : 850Join date : 2010-09-27Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:18 pm

Interesting, I never knew that about the baldies. I'd always seen it written that they were the same regardless of which way the cross was done.

I know in the past before I had Luings this is likely one of the reasons we couldn't replace what we considered our "great" cows - the little cow (typically an F1 as well) that weaned the big calf every year. When you did keep a heifer off them it was invariably bigger, less milky and less feminine. Maybe using too terminal a type bull, maybe the hybrid vigour missing but also this fat heifer calf problem.

Since I started breeding the Luings fairly close this has been a problem with my core, tightest bred ones - I've had several to the fat/lower fertility side. It almost never occurs in the more loosely bred ones despite there being some very milky cows there too.

Interesting though as the first daughters of this "Luing Jersey" bull are being bred this summer and the tighter bred ones are definitely the most feminine looking rather than the looser bred ones. I'd be really surprised on current form if they turn out to be pud-a-duds.

We stumble on blindly, not sure if we are even on the road less travelled.

EddieM

Posts : 895Join date : 2010-09-24Location : South Carolina

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:48 pm

Quote :

Wulf Cattle has proven that quite decisively ...

Do they use any of their bulls for the program or do they have particular lines or requirements for the ones that are used for the JerseyX? Did you see any of the bulls that are used or the cows that produced them? Do they look "terminal"?

MKeeneyAdmin

Posts : 4624Join date : 2010-09-21

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:49 pm

EddieM wrote:

Quote :

Wulf Cattle has proven that quite decisively ...

Do they use any of their bulls for the program or do they have particular lines or requirements for the ones that are used for the JerseyX? Did you see any of the bulls that are used or the cows that produced them? Do they look "terminal"?

they select, instead of specifically breeding, bulls for the Jersey program; I`m sure epd`s are the major selection tool; as they should be...we saw bulls and cows; they are terminal...

RobertMac

Posts : 377Join date : 2010-09-28Location : Mississippi, USA

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:10 pm

I've had many heifers and cows that 'looked' the right type, but failed to breed or rebreed and are no longer part of my herd.

Hopefully I can change my odds for the better, but sorting is part of cattle breeding.

True F1s may have the best odds...like Lents cows bred to one of Mr. L's bulls, but Jim may see it the other way around.

RobertMac

Posts : 377Join date : 2010-09-28Location : Mississippi, USA

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:32 pm

EddieM wrote:

RobertMac wrote:

Fertility is not a type, its a function. Environment determines the type when fertility is essential with in that environment. If I had Kentucky blue grass or NZ ryegrass, my type would be different. Probably why my cattle aren't black and have some ear.

Robert, describe your most fertile cow. Does she get mistaken for a bull from a distance? No Is she fat? No Is she heavily muscled? No Does she have hams like a hog? No Would she win a show if the sawdust was dyed green? No What does her full brothers, half brothers, sons look like? Using a son now and he won't be mistalen for a cow

Your cows also have extra skin Dr. Bonsma said this is the most important organ, no doubt with more height, length and less overall thickness than a KY, NZ or SC average cow. Be interested to know why you say this That does not matter either in fertility as much as in environmental fit for the hot and humid climate. And I would bet that the feet look a bit different to handle the standing water if you have pastures prone to that. Only if you consider pastures under several feet of water being prone...maybe I need water buffalo I am not sure if the feet are different due to the breeding or the effects of the wet environment. If you want to add additional heat dissipation you might want to raise horned cattle and not dehorn them. I did decide not to dehorn my calves this year

The grasses your cattle eat are more marginal in energy than forages in cooler climates (same here in the summer) but does that affect fertility or production more? I vote for the production answer if the cattle are not either oversized or selected improperly for the environment. Because of low fertility of the soil, my forage is marginal year round. But, if the cow can adaquately fill her belly each day, fertility should be less effected than production. Sooner or later, cows that marginally fit the environment will be exposed.

The big question is not if you, Mike or I can select a fertile cow by type but if we can select the cows and bulls to make more of them. That is why I use bulls out of proven cows...at least for most of the breeding season.

The bulls like Fat Boy over in NZ have to weigh more so as to not get blown off of the big hill when the wind gusts!

EddieM

Posts : 895Join date : 2010-09-24Location : South Carolina

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:02 pm

Quote :

no doubt with more height, length and less overall thickness than a KY, NZ or SC average cow. Be interested to know why you say this

More surface area to dissipate heat.

MKeeneyAdmin

Posts : 4624Join date : 2010-09-21

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:13 pm

pukerimu wrote:

MKeeney wrote:

the characteristics, not the picture...

Both would do for me Mike - that is our kind of cow!!!!

To make this kind more often...the type becomes more important than all these "performance measures"; ww, yw, etc...you may in fact have to de-select on performance...back to one of Larry`s reflections; the biggest heifer rarely makes the best cow; why would we think the "top performing yearling/2 yr old bull" would be best to make these kind of cows?we saw the limmy cow at Wulf`s that the herdsman said.."boy, I wish they all were like her"...well, under our breath we said, if you want more of them to be like her, breed for them...instead of breeding for ww, yw, marbling, ribeye, and on and on...

Tools, like cost effective supplements and crossbreeding, should be left for the commercial cattleman to get the most benefit for their profitability.

Seedstock providers should be developing the genetics of the 60% fertile cows that are doing their job without the supplements.

MKeeneyAdmin

Posts : 4624Join date : 2010-09-21

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:55 pm

and change their purebred cattle into this

no thanks...

RobertMac

Posts : 377Join date : 2010-09-28Location : Mississippi, USA

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:18 am

That's BS, Mike.Those aren't functional Southern cattle.

RobertMac

Posts : 377Join date : 2010-09-28Location : Mississippi, USA

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:24 am

EddieM wrote:

Quote :

no doubt with more height, length and less overall thickness than a KY, NZ or SC average cow. Be interested to know why you say this

More surface area to dissipate heat.

My cattle have proven different. I have neighbors that claim I don't raise Beefmasters anymore because I don't have "those big cows".

Hide thickness and blood flow in the hide are more important for heat dissipation and constant body temperature.

MKeeneyAdmin

Posts : 4624Join date : 2010-09-21

Subject: Re: Fat Boy ???? Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:30 pm

RobertMac wrote:

That's BS, Mike.Those aren't functional Southern cattle.

I don`t know what they are; or where they might be functional for who knows what purpose; but they had the no-input guru`s "screening committee" blessing...I believe breeding cattle must be fed at a practical nutritional level to differentiate differences... the idea/practice of depriving breeding stock of a supplement to balance a ration{a grass deficiency; not a cattle genetic deficiency} creating better fertility and breeding stock for commercial producers in better environments is rather foolish...over time, selection of "superior" animals raised in poor environments would change those genetic types into poorer functioning {a key function being to produce beef} animals in good environments... I have noticed considerable improvement in the looks of the bulls over the above since he defined soyhulls as "forage"...