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I can't lie, I like his movies. They are hilarious, even though they aren't meant to be.

Well, you know, when you get down to movies, that's a really great world and there is a great tradition of martial arts movies in both the east and the west. They have a great depth and you can see them on many levels. Movies like Shogun's Executioner and Lone Wolf and Cub, Yojimbo and those kinds of things created a world that reflected ancient Japan and always carried strong moral content. And they didn't have to over-gorify the violence in a vain attempt for "realism" that is far, far, crazily far from "realistic."

And the Chinese made Kid With The Golden Arm, Ninja Challenge, and all the Jackie Chan and Jet Li movies which may be less "realistic" but are deeper than Seagal's anti-superman ego-trip.

I was watching Fire Down Below with my wife and she said, "You look like that guy in that movie."

I was shocked. I said, "I look like Steven Seagal?"

She said, "No. That guy." pointing at Harry Dean Stanton.

"Oh," I said. "Okay."

It's better than looking like Seagal!!!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

Yes Nafis…I heard the crickets :-)
Regarding the thread all I'll say is….if you don't like the movies, don't watch. If you don't like the aikido, personality or character, don't train with him. And if you're willing to single out someone by name who you don't have any direct (reality not tv), intimate contact with please have the courage to name those who you do have contact with and you know are of questionable character. Of course if you do that you may not get rank or title but oh well….
This Seagal bashing is just….old.

Well, you know, when you get down to movies, that's a really great world and there is a great tradition of martial arts movies in both the east and the west. They have a great depth and you can see them on many levels. Movies like Shogun's Executioner and Lone Wolf and Cub, Yojimbo and those kinds of things created a world that reflected ancient Japan and always carried strong moral content. And they didn't have to over-gorify the violence in a vain attempt for "realism" that is far, far, crazily far from "realistic."

How about movies like "The Godfather", "Schindler's List", "Saving Private Ryan"?

Well, everyone has an ego; I don't think anyone is above the law in that regard. Personally, though, looking at Steven Seagal's life and career, its hard to kill this suspicion that ego was his main motivating drive. This is just my opinion; I hope I'm not marked for death by any of Seagal's students or fans, who are out for justice for their great hero. I know as an aikido instructor Seagal has taught a great number of aikidoka, and if I were to be under siege by any number of them, man, I'd be on deadly ground. ... uh... Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. Damnit, I knew I shouldn't have made the executive decision to try to do them in chronological order! I don't even know how I was going to deal with "The Glimmer Man," constructing a clever double entendre with that would really require some creative fire, uh.... down below...

If i recall correctly...he was killed off in the first 5 minutes of the ED...does that really count as a Seagal movie?...

Movies like Shogun's Executioner and Lone Wolf and Cub, Yojimbo and those kinds of things created a world that reflected ancient Japan and always carried strong moral content. And they didn't have to over-gorify the violence in a vain attempt for "realism" that is far, far, crazily far from "realistic."

Movies like Shogun's Executioner and Lone Wolf and Cub, Yojimbo and those kinds of things created a world that reflected ancient Japan and always carried strong moral content. And they didn't have to over-gorify the violence in a vain attempt for "realism" that is far, far, crazily far from "realistic."

David

I'm sorry, my man, but have you ever seen Lone Wolf and Cub before? They are, quite possibly, the most needlessly gory samurai (chanbara) films in existence. Literally every person who dies does so in one of the most horrific ways possible, and it's not for realism's sake. Though I'm no expert, I'm sure that there has never been a samurai in the history of Japan who has the bodycount that Ogami Itto does. Also, does it matter to you that Itto himself claims in all of those movies to be "on the road to hell", living a "life of pure evil"? Not to mention the fact that the films are predicated on the subject of revenge, which, from a moral and ethical standpoint, is repugnant.

Also, Yojimbo is the story of a man that uses his wits and killing talents to pit two groups of people together for his own personal monetary gain. What a paragon of martial righteousness.

That being said, I'm able take these films for what they are: entertainment. I love 'em. But if there was ever a person who was, by your meter, bastardizing martial arts (koryu bujutsu) for money, then you need look no further than Wakayama Tomisabro, Shintaro Katsu, and the Japanese film culture.

I'm sorry, my man, but have you ever seen Lone Wolf and Cub before? They are, quite possibly, the most needlessly gory samurai (chanbara) films in existence. Literally every person who dies does so in one of the most horrific ways possible, and it's not for realism's sake.

And this is what Seagal based his whole approach on. He prostituted that and took out what meaning there was in it. Now it's just the gore. No moral basis at all....or a very flimsy moral basis that's unironically twisted.

Quote:

Robert David wrote:

That being said, I'm able take these films for what they are: entertainment. I love 'em. But if there was ever a person who was, by your meter, bastardizing martial arts (koryu bujutsu) for money, then you need look no further than Wakayama Tomisabro, Shintaro Katsu, and the Japanese film culture.

I wish we could look no lower than that, too. But when that stuff goes into the sewer....it meets movies like Marked for Death...etc.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

Those movies I mentioned were post-Meiji representations of Edo periods and further back and they were really about the heritage of the sword. They were made to show Japanese their roots, more or less: these are the times you came from. The figures in these movies are like Jefferson and Davie Crocket and Benjamin Franklin and such for the Japanese. All carrying swords. The action in them is exagerated like The Alamo with Fess Parker. The gore of the old chanbara films was always a lesson about the sword. You shouldn't think that sword fights are banging swords together: a sword fight is cutting people up. You can't make a movie about sushi without showing some slicing...you can't make a movie about a butcher without showing some cows being cut up. And to make a movie about swords, there will be blood.

But O Sensei's aikido was intended to powerfully thrust into the world as a statement for and an expression of peace. And Love.

I don't believe that "aiki is love" but I do believe that aikido is a pure and powerful thing created by Morihei Ueshiba to make that statement of peace. The scroll he gave my teacher was daito ryu. The aikido he created was intended to be something different: a handmade sword for peace in the world.

So the nature of aikido and how it is used is certainly as important as the nature and depiction of the katana, both as an instrument of death and protection and as a shaper of a society.

To show the nature of the katana, you must show the cutting. But to show the nature of aikido, you must show a sword of a much finer nature and it must not be covered with gore and wielded with taunts and a sneer.

Seagal has shown us Morihei Ueshiba's sword of love used for the vilest purpose of making Seagal wealthy and famous. In the process, he defames Morihei's sword and perpetuates the mentality that Morihei intended to cut through. That's how he misuses aikido using it to create what it was intended to heal.

That's what I really mean and that is why I protest Seagal's flicks.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

Well, everyone has an ego; I don't think anyone is above the law in that regard. Personally, though, looking at Steven Seagal's life and career, its hard to kill this suspicion that ego was his main motivating drive. This is just my opinion; I hope I'm not marked for death by any of Seagal's students or fans, who are out for justice for their great hero. I know as an aikido instructor Seagal has taught a great number of aikidoka, and if I were to be under siege by any number of them, man, I'd be on deadly ground. ... uh... Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. Damnit, I knew I shouldn't have made the executive decision to try to do them in chronological order! I don't even know how I was going to deal with "The Glimmer Man," constructing a clever double entendre with that would really require some creative fire, uh.... down below...

This is a really entertaining post, Sy. I think I've seen all those, if Dark Territory involves a 10 year old girl utilizing nikkyo on a bad guy. Some say the greatest actors can play roles that are totally different. I don't know whether Seagal can, but he doesn't. However, there is something really different and intriguing to me about his role(s). He's got this extreme masculinity going on, all the while with some sort of effeminate grace. I have just begun my second viewing of The Glimmer Man, which I got in the mail from Netflix today. Although often solo in his movies, he and Keenan Ivory Wayans as homicide partners surprisingly mesh pretty well. Actually, in Under Siege he partners up with Erika Eleniak, but that's all downhill after the cake scene ;-)

Anyway, I think it would be exciting to train with Seagal Sensei someday, and if the narcissism is so thick in the air that I can't breathe, that will be it. Some things I knock before I try, but this one I would go into with as little prejudgment as possible.

But O Sensei's aikido was intended to powerfully thrust into the world as a statement for and an expression of peace. And Love.

And sometimes, demonstrating the depths that humans can sink to can go a long way towards creating a consciousness of need which will move people to action, action which will bring about the revolution of peace about which you speak. Without action there really is no peace at all.

I don't believe that "aiki is love" but I do believe that aikido is a pure and powerful thing created by Morihei Ueshiba to make that statement of peace. The scroll he gave my teacher was daito ryu. The aikido he created was intended to be something different: a handmade sword for peace in the world.

So the nature of aikido and how it is used is certainly as important as the nature and depiction of the katana, both as an instrument of death and protection and as a shaper of a society.

Quote:

David Orange wrote:

To show the nature of the katana, you must show the cutting. But to show the nature of aikido, you must show a sword of a much finer nature and it must not be covered with gore and wielded with taunts and a sneer.

Where is any evidence that O-Sensei would support this ridiculously simple perversion of Aiki is love. You have already stated you don't believe something that we have all heard him say via interviews and films. So as you reject what the founder, himself says Aikido is, you want people to believe that you have any idea about his art. Truthfully speaking, you don't even have your own reasons for your statements. You are using your own twisted views of Aikido as your defense for your statements. That is simply a pathetic excuse, like what the religious sycophants use to defend blowing up abortion doctors - something I have a feeling you probably support, too.

Quote:

David Orange wrote:

Seagal has shown us Morihei Ueshiba's sword of love used for the vilest purpose of making Seagal wealthy and famous. In the process, he defames Morihei's sword and perpetuates the mentality that Morihei intended to cut through. That's how he misuses aikido using it to create what it was intended to heal.

This is probably the single most unsupported point posted here on AikiWeb. You stand there on your rickety soapbox preaching away your religious rant about what the founder wanted for the world without offering anything to back up your twisted, perverted, negatively charged, witless diatribe.

Quote:

David Orange wrote:

That's what I really mean and that is why I protest Seagal's flicks.

Protest? You mean rant! You sit behind a keyboard and have done absolutely nothing to bring about the change you claim to defend.

Have you written his production company and communicated your feelings?
Have you contacted anyone in Hollywood to communicate you opinions and request a change?
Have you written a movie and submitted it with Seagal Sensei (someone that you already agree has a great power to effect the world's subconsciousness) in mind?
Have you contacted Seagal Sensei directly?

No... No... No... and No...

Why? because you are a coward and you are so declared by using your own standards exemplified here on AikiWeb. You have failed to stand up and defend your own principles. Instead you wave O-Sensei's flag while at the same time changing its colors to suit your own misaligned inaction. You are the coward you ineffectively slashes about with your plastic toy sword trying to do damage to anyone standing within striking distance of the soapbox castle which you claim to defend in the name of some Holy War of Justice Is that the name you have chosen for your soon to be filmed autobiography?

You claim some high moral ground upon which you preach down your rants of hate. The truth is you are a coward who stand in a hole, actually a latrine that you have dug for yourself, and worse for the aikido community at large - and this all in the name of the founder, Morihei Ueshiba.

Get a life and stand up for yourself before you come out and claim to stand up for the higher principles of O-Sensei's Aikido, a thing about which you obviously know nothing.

Oh, and was that you who ran out screaming after getting rebuffed for reaching your hand under the wall into my bathroom stall when at the airport down in AL? Why don't you come out of the closet already, or is that where you keep your soapbox when not standing on it?

lastly, is seems totally lost upon you that via your own twisted logic used here in this thread that you would be considered EVIL. You have chosen to continue to unnecessarily malign people to serve your own good, when you could just as easily choose to do something positive to bring about the betterment of others. As such you would be relegated to hell, an imaginary place made up by and for the self-righteous and self deluted, which you have proven yourself to be... "a bit at least"

Oh, and in the name of Stan Baker.... "Who your teacher?"

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.

And sometimes, demonstrating the depths that humans can sink to can go a long way towards creating a consciousness of need which will move people to action, action which will bring about the revolution of peace about which you speak. Without action there really is no peace at all.

And if you can pocket a million bucks in the process of hyping violence to promote peace...why not, huh?

You can rationalize prostitution but it's hard to claim it's not still prostitution when you're haggling so hard about the price!

...the nature of aikido and how it is used is certainly as important as the nature and depiction of the katana, both as an instrument of death and protection and as a shaper of a society.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

Where is any evidence that O-Sensei would support this ridiculously simple perversion of Aiki is love.

I'm sure he'd rather see Seagal gouging people's eyes out as the final expression of his "art of peace," huh?

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

You have already stated you don't believe something that we have all heard him say via interviews and films. So as you reject what the founder, himself says Aikido is, you want people to believe that you have any idea about his art.

I don't believe that "love" is the technical definition of "aiki" because people like Sagawa and Horikawa make it clear that they are talking about a technical skill. I do believe that "aikido"--the creation of Morihei Ueshiba--is fundamentally an expression of his love for humanity and the universe. He didn't pass that gift to you so that you could use it to unclog your toilet.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

Truthfully speaking, you don't even have your own reasons for your statements. You are using your own twisted views of Aikido as your defense for your statements.

Twisted how, Shaun? I use aikido to serve the people--not to serve myself. I don't make money off it,even by teaching--much less by pimping it out in graphic pornoviolence.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

That is simply a pathetic excuse, like what the religious sycophants use to defend blowing up abortion doctors - something I have a feeling you probably support, too.

Shows how poor your perception is shaun. I'm don't beieve Jesus would support blowing up abortion doctors or that he would condemn them or the women who need them. Obviously, what's in that hage atama of yours doesn't have much connection to reality, huh?

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

This is probably the single most unsupported point posted here on AikiWeb. You stand there on your rickety soapbox preaching away your religious rant about what the founder wanted for the world without offering anything to back up your twisted, perverted, negatively charged, witless diatribe.

So you do think that O Sensei wanted us to portray aikido as Seagal shows it in Hard to Kill and Marked for Death? He eschewed such violent fantasizing because the peace of aikido is not generated by working up that kind of sick, violent fantasy in the mind. That just generates more sickness. And someone who profits by that is on a par with a crack dealer, in my book.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

Protest? You mean rant! You sit behind a keyboard and have done absolutely nothing to bring about the change you claim to defend.

I just do right aikido and never pimp it out.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

Have you written his production company and communicated your feelings?
Have you contacted anyone in Hollywood to communicate you opinions and request a change?
Have you written a movie and submitted it with Seagal Sensei (someone that you already agree has a great power to effect the world's subconsciousness) in mind?
Have you contacted Seagal Sensei directly?

No... No... No... and No...

Why?

I did once approach a pimp who was manhandling a woman and got the pimp and his brother both after me. I have learned that it's no use to come between a pimp and his girls. Ergo...no, I haven't made any overtures as you suggested. It's enough just say that Seagal has misused aikido. And that he seems to cultivate an image as a jerk. IMHO.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

...you are a coward and you are so declared by using your own standards exemplified here on AikiWeb. You have failed to stand up and defend your own principles.

You funny, boy. I have continually defended my principles. You want to call me "a coward" via keyboard...seems to me that's the very definition of cowardice.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

Instead you wave O-Sensei's flag while at the same time changing its colors to suit your own misaligned inaction.

What???

That doesn't even make Bizarro sense, Shaun. You want to try that again?

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

You are the coward you ineffectively slashes about with your plastic toy sword trying to do damage to anyone standing within striking distance of the soapbox castle which you claim to defend in the name of some Holy War of Justice Is that the name you have chosen for your soon to be filmed autobiography?

You really are funny, dude. I have no war to prosecute. I'm just saying and will continue to say that Steven Seagal's movies are a prostitution of aikido and that using that tool of peace to make money off violence, without concern for the effect that those images have on the world is, yes, indeed, as evil as selling crack or meth to kids. I'll stand on that one all day and night.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

You claim some high moral ground upon which you preach down your rants of hate.

I don't hate Seagal. I really pity him. I was a big fan of some of the super cool Chinese movies out in the early 80s, stuff like "Kid With the Golden Arm" and "Ninja Challenge". When Above the Law came out, my friends and I thought that this might be the beginning of an age of good American movies to match those Chinese movies. But alas: earwax.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

The truth is you are a coward who stand in a hole, actually a latrine that you have dug for yourself, and worse for the aikido community at large - and this all in the name of the founder, Morihei Ueshiba.

Let's see, now...that's three times you've called me a coward from behind a keyboard but I don't see any action from you. Just talk.

But Lao Tzu does say "Accept disgrace willingly," so I don't mind a guy like you nipping at my heels. "The greatest good is like water. It flows in places men reject, and so is like the tao."

I'll be happy to remain in places you reject.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

Get a life and stand up for yourself before you come out and claim to stand up for the higher principles of O-Sensei's Aikido, a thing about which you obviously know nothing.

I've stood for myself. I've felt no force to move me, so what's your beef? You're the one making impotent cries. You stand up for yourself.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

Oh, and was that you who ran out screaming after getting rebuffed for reaching your hand under the wall into my bathroom stall when at the airport down in AL? Why don't you come out of the closet already, or is that where you keep your soapbox when not standing on it?

Bring your feelings on out, Shaun. We see what's in your closet here, don't we? Not at all what one would expect from seeing your fierce profile pic. You're really a pretty funny guy!

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

lastly, is seems totally lost upon you that via your own twisted logic used here in this thread that you would be considered EVIL. You have chosen to continue to unnecessarily malign people to serve your own good, when you could just as easily choose to do something positive to bring about the betterment of others.

I've tried to be clear that I'm not maligning Steven Seagal (except to agree that he does 'seem' like a jerk, or seems to cultivate the image of a jerk). I'm maligning his movies and his choice to abuse aikido for profit. I'm not saying he's going to hell for it. Many people do evil things and still, presumably, enter paradise. But I don't think his misuse of aikido and violent imagery will make that easier for him.

[quote=Shaun Ravens;238364]As such you would be relegated to hell, an imaginary place made up by and for the self-righteous and self deluted, which you have proven yourself to be... "a bit at least"

Nice qualification, there.

Quote:

Shaun Ravens wrote:

Oh, and in the name of Stan Baker.... "Who your teacher?"

As you told someone...it's on my profile. Look it up.

Cheers, Henny!

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-20-2009 at 02:09 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I understand that Seagal Sensei is more of a public figure due to his movies. However, I do have to wonder were it another 7th Dan Aikido instructor being unnecessarily torn apart based completely on the absence of any factual material or even personal interaction, would the thread been allowed to proceed this far.

The difference between Seagal and "another 7th Dan Aikido instructor" is that Seagal made a choice and actively sought to be a star in movies, to become a public figure. How many other "7th Dan Aikido instructors" have sought out or done this.

The people criticizing him paid to see some of his movies and thus Seagal benefited monetarily from them and because of this and his status as a public figure he is a fair target of criticism by these people. Whereas" another 7th Dan Aikido instructor" not being a movie star and public figure would not be.

The difference between Seagal and "another 7th Dan Aikido instructor" is that Seagal made a choice and actively sought to be a star in movies, to become a public figure. How many other "7th Dan Aikido instructors" have sought out or done this.

The people criticizing him paid to see some of his movies and thus Seagal benefited monetarily from them and because of this and his status as a public figure he is a fair target of criticism by these people. Whereas" another 7th Dan Aikido instructor" not being a movie star and public figure would not be.

David

Let's not confuse the man and the movie. When under contract with a studio ones soul tends to get sucked out a bit.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu