So according to Foxy Woxy we would be in quite a pickle had we voted for independence would we? 😉

Hmm.

So following Foxy Woxy’s logic we are all presently rolling in the money apparently. 😉

Funny but I definitely do NOT feel like I’m rolling in the money. Therefore I think I may be one of the *ahem* few who disagrees, just ever so slightly, with his claim that we would be worse off under independence. Of course I could be wrong with this assessment. 🙂

It does seem that the right wing mind set has tunnel blindness as a central feature of their brain structure with regards to basic arithmetic.

10% of a lesser amount is greater than 100% of that same lesser amount.

Private profit versus socialism of losses of private companies.

Lloyds Bank has used public money to bail out their losses, now wishes to sell same publicly owned shares to …yes the same public, but only those rich ones that have any spare money.

When it is yours, the public, you don’t own it, we own it on your behalf. We sell it our friends at a reduced price so that they can make a profit on it.

If it performs badly we assume that you will fund the losses until such time that we can sell it back to you again, even though you have already paid for it, and make our profit again and keep taking all the profits in bonuses that our friends sometimes donate to our party in order to control this form of mass robbery.

In the meantime if you fall off the end due to lack of income through unemployment, illness or accident, tough!

Tory mind set, we deserve the best at your expense because we are worth it.

Aye, oil prices are a bummer right enough, although not for the reasons LF gives.

Just try to think about it Liam son: if there had been a vote for independence, you lot would have to import all your oil causing nasty things to happen to your balance of trade; we on the other hand would be selling you the oil and laughing all the way to our oil fund with your (borrowed) money.

So according to Foxy Woxy we would be in quite a pickle had we voted for independence would we? 😉

Hmm.

So following Foxy Woxy’s logic we are all presently rolling in the money apparently. 😉

Funny but I definitely do NOT feel like I’m rolling in the money. Therefore I think I may be one of the *ahem* few who disagrees, just ever so slightly, with his claim that we would be worse off under independence. Of course I could be wrong with this assessment. 🙂

I stand sit here in anticipation of being soundly corrected. 😀

I just love the idea that Foxy Woxy thinks we would be in a pickle if we had voted for independence.

What the f****** hell does he call the current mess we are in then … a strawberry f****** tart?

Given that the oil was predicted to run out by 1980, I should say that even a drop of oil left in that barren oil-emptiness of the North Sea (before we even get into the Firth of Clyde) is a great BONUS!

And the SNP consistently state that oil is a BONUS to Scotland and we would rich enough without it. Any other country in Europe would give their eye teeth to have our clean energy or our whisky and salmon exports.

The SNP consistently point out that Scotland would do well without oil, yet this never seems to register with the corporate press or be mentioned down on Plantation Quay (although Sky let Nicola once mention this, oops).

I am still convinced that we should always be positive and not fall to the depths of Better Together. We want to make a better country, this is not some fitba match where the aim is to win at all costs.

So by not sinking to UKOK depths, we are already building a better country with a can-do attitude, which is what we will need post-indy. And not a “too poor, too wee, too stupid” attitude which is the intellectual property of all Scottish unionists.

Britain has run a negative trade balance since the 1980s which means Britain has purchased more in value from “foreigners” as it enjoys calling them, than it has sold to them for over 35 years.

Last week, the target set by Osborne to reduce public spending was missed yet again, when he spent £68.9 billion more than the same period last year. By the end of August this year, total debt was a staggering £1.5 trillion.

But between now & the next budget, he is likely going to add at least another £40 billion which means Britain’s spending remains out of control.

To put this into context, the Defence budget for 2016 is £45.1 billion & those with sharp pencils will already have concluded that even if the entire defence budget was zero, Osborne still can’t balance the books.

And why is that? Well, wages have remained stagnant for the last 7 years which means taxes from personal incomes have barely budged even though some 5 million people have been added to the population.

And a devastating consequence of Britain’s chronic low productivity (30% lower than France & Germany & 40% lower than the USA) is that GDP per person since the Conservatives took office in 2009 has gone DOWN.

Anyone who chooses to stay shackled to this economic train wreck needs to make an appointment with their psychiatrist.

Regrettably, Dr. Fox is a non practising GP so he is not qualified to offer advice short of bullshit sound bites in The Herald.

More chance of finding strange men in Dr Foxs closet than finding anything positive to say about “union” eh Liam. If the oil is such a burden to the uk and its so useless why dont you hand back control of it to Scotland?

Given Unionists keep harping on about Scotland’s deficit its time the truth was told about UK’s off balance sheet liabilities.

As at 2013, the total came to just over 500% debt to GDP.

Just to be clear, we’ve actually updated the GDP figure used to account for the latest UK GDP data which was released today (November 27th 2012). This stated that UK GDP for the year up to and including the third quarter of 2012 was £1,544bn.

Then we also added in the cost of the financial sector interventions, unfunded public sector pensions and PFI, BRITAIN’S TOTAL DEBTS REACH JUST OVER 900% of GDP.

seems an appropriate music video for the Tory conference, they’re the end bit. Not sure which of them is the teacher Tory with the face, they all look the same to me.

We don’t need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Tories leave them kids alone
Hey! Tories! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it’s just another (b)rick in the wall.
All in all you’re just another (b)rick in the wall.

No wonder Cameron is a Pink Floyd fan; he just identified with the wrong side, that’s all.

Tell the Scots what’s good for them. Bet Herald cringers love hearing that. Thank you sir, can I have another.

“We got to say to people in Scotland ‘you are better off being in the Union. Because had you voted last year for independence with oil prices plummeted you would find yourself in quite a pickle…’

“You have got to tell Scots why it is good for them. It was all very nice for us to enjoy why the Union was stronger having us Scots in it but that was not actually what the voters in Scotland were discussing or what they wanted to hear.

“So maybe next time – and maybe starting today – we might want to make the case in a positive way for why they benefit from being in the Union and not the other way round.”

He also called on America back a UK exit from an “unreformed EU”.

It was all very nice for us to enjoy why the Union was stronger having us Scots in it also toryboy creep out. Filthy rich in Scotland were very relieved at NO, BBCS, red/blue tories, all press, Orange Order, Lady Mone of Mayfair, cringers, proud Scotbrit buts etc

Oh how scary, being in a pickle, a whole country. Usually that phrase is used when wondering what to have for your tea or whether you should have made that comment on social media. I was in quite a pickle when I realised that the train home to bonny Scotland, from Newcastle, was going to be choca block due to the rugby, so decided to leave it another 24 hrs, wish I hadn’t.

Just what we are up against, in terms of establishment and media lies being piped into living rooms day in, day put, has got folks in quite a pickle. Some people’s brains are all pickled it seems!

“Dignity is not just about how much money you have got … Officially children are growing up in poverty if there is an income in that family of less than £16,500. What the Conservatives say is how that £16,500 is earned matters. It matters if you are earning that yourself, because if you are earning it yourself you are independent and that is the first step towards self-respect. If that £16,500 is either a high proportion or entirely through the benefit system you are trapped. It is about pathways to work, pathways to independence. It is about creating a pathway to independence, self-respect and dignity.”

Multi-millionaire Jeremy Hunt quoted today re the tax credit cuts.

Leaving aside his disdain of the working poor, apparently independence is something to be sought after and results in self respect unless of course you are S******d.

The Liam Fox / Alex Wild statements offer an insight into the future in the UK – if that future continues in the hands of the Tories.

Just consider for a moment the Tory policy trajectory over time. Meaning – if the Tories are thinking of doing this now, what on earth are they going to come up with over the next four years – and beyond.

With no opposition from Labour when the votes are counted in the House of Commons, the Tories, with little to keep them in check, will, I suspect be uncontrollable as they unleash their social and political fantasies.

What is to stop the Tories from drifting ever further to the right and into a dangerous nationalism founded on prejudice and intolerance. Even now there are signs that the Tories are determined to emulate at least some of the excesses of the Third Reich. Policies affecting huge swathes of the population, particularly the elderly, the disabled, the diseased and the poor and disadvantaged, not to mention unwanted immigrants.

Are we about to see social cleansing at the hands of the Tories. Not tomorrow perhaps, but drawing a line through the policies of the past 5 years and extending it into the future, the trajectory takes us close to the possibility of a holocaust of Britain’s ‘inconvenient’ classes.

But perhaps the most disarming aspect of the ‘tory’ future here in the UK, is that the majority of the electorate will do nothing – absolutely nothing – to stop it.

Even here in Scotland, in the face of repeated impoverishing policies from 10 Downing St., No voters continue, seemingly, to live behind a one inch thick sheet of plate glass. Deaf doesn’t describe it.

Scotland’s only solution is Independence, and will be increasingly so in the future as austerity intensifies.
Or are we going to wait till we wake up one morning to find soldiers on the street before we get the message.

It’s hilarious how the economy of an independent Scotland is judged on a variable oil price, and comparisons with the CURRENT set-up.

The whole point of independence is the ability to do things differently. And there is the huge boost in global visibility that has to be taken into account.
How do you begin to put a figure on that?

Massive boosts in tourism and exports are likely as the Scottish ‘brand’ is boosted all over the world – through our increased media presence, our voice in the UN and Europe, teams in the Olympics and other international events, peacekeeping missions etc etc – all the things that modern normal countries do..

And there is a huge amount of global goodwill for this country. No doubt, many Expats will want to invest and buy from an independent Scotland to help us succeed. Many would even move back here.

And small countries can be quick to adapt.
After the bank crash, Ireland is bouncing back fast, with GDP growth at 6% this year – making it the fastest growing economy in the Eurozone.

It is just ridiculous to compare with our current situation, where we can’t even compete effectively with London and the south.

In a speech in Aberdeen, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury set out why the oil and gas industry is a jewel in the UK’s crown.

Fair enough that berk’s off to the Lords now but on t’other hand, Scots oil’s a worthless and tragic burden what would bring Scotland to its knees, must be one of the greatest lies ever told by UKOK unionists onto any of their “fractious regions” they think they own.

Also, what about all the Scots whisky tax income what would make Scotland rich again?

Sorry about that one. Its just nice to give a very sneery blue toryboy britnat called Kevin in Embro, something to get very over-excited about.

“Fractious region of Scotland land” popping up more and more, hopefully.

“Let’s face it,” he said. “There were moments when lots of people had doubts whether our plans would work moments, as I was well aware, when people had doubts about me.”

Osborne qualified his criticism of Corbyn’s Labour as the party of wreckers by warning the Tories that they must not become complacent. “Friends, it is precisely in our hour of greatest success that I choose to come here to deliver a warning. A warning for us all to heed. It is this: don’t let us rest on our laurels. The British people have not put us here to congratulate ourselves. They have put us here to do a job.”

As long as their Scotland region helps underwriting it all and they’ve finally bumped off the most vulnerable people in the UK. Good old toryboys, red and blue.

I had been chatting with friends this weekend regarding the panning the SNP have taken on NHS targets. The conversation cantered on what Union Jackie and Bradford would have to say now these targets are being met. Guess what on tonight’s “Reporting Various cities north of Tweed “ the answer arrived.

Scotland does not need oil & gas to stand on it’s own two feet. We never got more than 10% of it anyway and the other 90% was squandered South of the Border. No matter what happens to the price of Oil in the future it will be a smaller or larger bonus to the Scottish economy not a burden.

More important is what happens to renewables , hydro, wind , waves , tidal ,solar which at present the Tories are trying to destroy the opportunities in Scotland for political reasons. They have their Chinese funded nuclear and their own unpopular fracking. So it suits them for Scotland to be reliant on England to keep the lights on.

No doubt the SNP have foreseen this and will take the necessary steps to ensure our future energy needs. Provided they have not just become too comfortable with power for it’s own sake? Scotland must be free to make our own decisions on all things!!

ArtyHetty, I can sense you had quite an unpleasant time below the dyke, but I have family/ acquaintances originating in Donegal who, unbelievably, adopt Unionist attitudes. Two, despite benefitting from no tuition fees, voted No as students. Grrrr. As the Americans say, go figure. Have they no conception of what their forebears suffered under the British, like my great grandfather?

Also, many of the Donegal diaspora in the Central Belt became diehard Labour Supporters, transmuting seamlessly into the Dr John Reid, Michael Kelly, Brian Wilson school of Union-Jack -boxer-wearers, while they belted out their Irish republican songs at Gramsci-themed parties in Glasgow.

Virulent bile and stupidity can caw the feet from you sometimes, but please ignore.

sinky
STV trotting after all the other SNPBad tossers just to show that they’re in with the big boys regarding the Michelle business. In Billy Connolly’s words “Just a wee pretendy TV station”.
Showed an elderly couple who were involved and coaxed them into a defamation of character if ever there was one. Could be nasty for STV (I hope).

I’m not a yes voter and never voted, so I came here to try and figure out who to side with. Sorry for being a wee bit off topic but if someone could answer me this I’d be grateful.

Tonight on the STV news, I saw Humza Yousaf going on about migrants again. The narative was how bad they have been suffering, starvation, mis treatment etc etc. Thing is though, these people are the cleanest, freshest, happiest smiling refugees I’ve ever seen on the news from past conflicts. They had mobiles strait off the boat, which suggests infrastructure intact and family at the receiving end. This does not add up with me. The other thing, I remember Salmond stating he wanted 480,000 immigrant into Scotland. That’s a huge number to integrate, which by all other countries is impossible.

Why does the SNP want migrants any way they can and what impact will this have on the rest of us ? We have foodbanks, housing shortage, schools shortage etc etc. So how can importing migrants help ? I’m no fan of the Tories but they seem to have the best option for helping true refugees at source and not these obviously false economic migrants. I can not help being cynical here. So what digs with this migrant thing ? Germany and Sweden are now regretting their actions, so why are we still plugging the import of these people ? Sorry for the long questions.

Thanks TC, yes I have wondered about the Donegal unionist mentality from my friends, and what that is all about.

O/T

Yeh, defo will not be back in Whitley Bay for sometime. But, I met a couple of interesting friends of theirs, Geordie’s and their uncle Harry. At 97 years old he was such a great person to chat with, been fighting to get a ramp so he can get into his garden, ffs, so I pointed them in the right direction for help, I hope. 97 and just in the 10-15 mins of meeting him, he told me so much about his eventful life, amazing. I hope he can keep warm this winter…

Actually I was quite shocked by how run down Whitley is and also parts of Newcastle, awful, really looked bad. Aside from that, I was really struck by the number of Mcdonalds, they are everywhere, and chain hotels and pubs, it was like a scary animation I watched, called I think, Logo? They won’t hear a word of criticism about anything regards that kind of thing though, who knows where their heads are.

Oh, and the A1 is being upgraded, wonder where that will stop, just past N/C airport I should think.

The sad thing is, Geordies are a great bunch, but the Redtop Press will eventually rot your brain. England has the most Right-wing press in Western Europe and they shamelessly flog the anti-immigrant/welfare cheat/Jockistan agenda.

I used to laugh when they said to me, “You Jocks are just Geordies without the brains!”

Of course, in my case they may be right, but I really liked Northumberland and its people.

O/T
Jeremy Hunt has suggested people in receipt of tax credits must work harder as he said cuts to the benefit send an “important cultural signal” by encouraging a work ethic similar to China and the US.
Do the Tories now want to get back us back into the sweat box.
Nasty Party

Why does the SNP want migrants any way they can and what impact will this have on the rest of us ?

STV is for morons but that aside, the people fleeing middle east war zones are fleeing genocide.

The UK caused all of this seemingly endless horror along with the US. Bomber Bliar, Crash Brown, George W Bush jr, Dick Chenney, several hundred bloodthirsty warmongering MP’s in the shithole that is Westminster, all caused this War and refugee crisis. But UKOK war is good, good for business, good for Britnat politicking and if there was any justice, Bomber Bliar alone should face trial for war crimes against humanity. The enemy couldn’t strike back at the UK but we are morally obliged to help the people fleeing death and slavery.

Here in the UK, Scotland has had to contend with exact same SLab crew with the blood of hundreds of thousands of people on their hands. Terrifying the people of Scotland with Project Fear was nothing to SLab or their BBC Scotland shills. Same vote SLab propaganda attack outfit may get SLab back in power in Holyrood, but I wouldn’t put money on it.

Indeed, absolutely, Geordies are really great, lovely people. They have been shafted big style by westmonster but sadly play into the hands of divide and rule, so weakened are they by being kept down for so long. They really do not have the appetite or ambition regards political engagement and self belief, in comparison to Scotland. That is why I was so shocked when I was told that Scotland is completely crazy to even wish for equality, it’s a “utopia” which is unattainable! We are in fact all crazy.

The film which came to mind when I was there, is ‘Logorama’, can watch on utube, it’s very good.

Funny how it turns out the poor wee couple who bought their council house under the capitalist right to buy scheme brought in by a Tory Government and only made £30.000 profit on it have turned very Labour and hard done by that somebody else made a profit too

And when you start counting it up it looks like Michelle Thomsons end in all this is not what it seems given that she paid £51.000 for it had to hire a lawyer to do the conveyancing then found a buyer for £75.000 sow that looks like a £24.000 profit but it’s not is it

Lawyers fees %, Ms Thomson’s partners fees, income tax, and I’m presuming probably expenses in the usual wee tidy up of a property before you sell it, none of which the previous owners had as they took the easy route of getting somebody else to do all the work for them

My best guess after all is said and done Ms Thomson may have made the whopping profit of around £4.000, not exactly Donald Trump money here, whatever the lawyer was doing surely is a matter for him or his company

I once owned a house in Spain which I bought for £26.000 then the property boom hit and our cousins in the South were flocking to the Costa Blanca to buy anything and they were used to paying loadsamoney

My house was a nice little villa on the edge of Torrevieja
five minutes walk from the beach and town
Well I sold that little sucker for £84.000 and ran for it clapping with glee and here’s the thing not one person said anything about it and the buyers were delighted with their purchase because they felt the property was worth it

They then promptly re-sold it for £94.000 to somebody else, did I moan, did I make a fuss,hell no because I had loadsamoney and then rented another one for £5.000 per year

The moral of the story then is

Who are these Arsholes how much are they being paid for this and how long did it take for the slimy wee “Journalists” and their slimy wee accomplices to dig up
this drivel on people running a profitable business and no animals were being molested assaulted whether living or dead

BTW Lib Dums you owe our country £800.000 for use of taxpayer funded police services
Shall we go on and I’ll tell you this Hutcheon and your pals’ smear can work both ways

That’s my story for today so it’s nighty night from me and remember children Vote SNP Twice and pay these Bastirts back

Regards the Jocks being Geordies without the brains, it is in fact the other way around, and I am a Geordie, seriously it is the case. There are of course many bright Geordies, but they lack the wit and bare faced cheek, which is a bad thing. 🙂

O/T
Jeremy Hunt has suggested people in receipt of tax credits must work harder as he said cuts to the benefit send an “important cultural signal” by encouraging a work ethic similar to China and the US.
Do the Tories now want to get back us back into the sweat box.
Nasty Party

You obviously did not receive the e-mail that was sent out by Mr Baconised Hambone after the NASTY party won back in May then Scott.

Keep a sharp look out for the announcement that all children under the age of 12 are to be sent out for chimney sweeping training. IK know most folks no longer have chimneys requiring sweeping Scott but hey such a minor problem won’t stop Mr. oinker.

I remember Salmond saying during the referendum campaign that Scotland should be able to attract an extra 2000 immigrants per year above the current figures.

The reality is we have an ageing population, and if we want to have a balanced economy we either need more immigrants, or we need to convince every family to have at least 2 or 3 kids.

The government can’t exactly force people to breed can they?

It’s the same issue with Germany, and why they are welcoming immigrants.

Research shows that immigrants contribute more to the economy than they cost. I imagine that is especially the case with the ones who have the initiative to walk hundreds of miles across southern Europe. They are pretty likely to be just as hard workers as the Poles.

If Scotland had no immigration, we would soon have 4 or 5 old grannies for every young woman.
Some of our town centres already seem like that, and it’s not a sign of a modern vibrant nation.

OK, I’ll kinda buy that but it does not explain why Humza Yousaf wants these people in Scotland. It’s going to cost us much more in the long run, take them into an alien culture and they will never integrate. The logical option is to help them in the Middle East and not in Scotland. I’m sorry, but someone’s pulling the wool over our eyes here.

OK. I kinda see that also but to encouage Scot’s to breed is no problem if the financial assistance to families was given, instead of supporting integration of an alien culture. Remember the Poles are just like us but not the migrants from Islamic countries.

‘And we draw on the moral energy of society. And we must draw on the values of family life…For the family is in the first place where we learn those habits of mutual love, tolerance and service on which every healthy nation depends for its survival’ Margaret Thatcher aka Boudicca 1987 Conservative Party Conference Blackpool

Except the UKOK family is a tad dysfunctional – the kids are on the child protection register and now we have elder abuse- who haven’t they maltreated?

We all must work together in Scotland to safeguard our citizens and walk towards a better future- we are creating an identity that is respected, developing our autonomy, advocating for social justice and promoting our multi-cultural adherence. Scotland is no longer insecurely attached to the UKOK family of disunity – independence is the healthy therapeutic option.

As a matter of fact between 1986 and 2005 oil was less than $50.00 a barrel all the time and in 1998 it was as low as $26.00 at times. Its all time low was $9.00. We heard none of this.

As has been pointed out we have never had oil revenues other than the same population share as the rest of the UK and all this has to be pointed out to everybody in Scotland – along with the 30 year burying of the McCrone Report.

I do not blame the London Government for telling Scotland lies. They would have gone bust without Scottish oil revenues and they were defending “Britain”.

There are no words adequate however to describe a whole generation of Tory, LibDem and particularly Labour SCOTTISH MPs who colluded in the forty year lies against their own people.

In our dogged process to independence we have spent an inordinate amount of time on peripheral arguments that we have been drawn into by our opponents while we have not as yet established with a significant section of the Scottish people the very simple and easily demonstrable fact that we are comfortably self-supporting (with or without oil revenues).

When we do this -and in the process establish clearly that Scotland has been systematically lied to for forty years – we win the next referendum.

A couple of well designed news sheets delivered to every home does this.

The deficit is still more than double what it was at any time under Labour before the 2008 global crash despite Mr Osborne insisting the economy is recovering.

Overall Britain was ranked 108th out of 140 countries for its macroeconomic environment in the Global Competitiveness Index.

At 104th, Zimbabwe suffered years of hyperinflation under 91-year-old President Robert Mugabe – and had to phase out its currency after printing trillion-dollar notes with an exchange rate of 35 quadrillion to one US dollar.’

Extract from Mirror of 30/9/15

Aye, that was a right close shave last year. We need to be thanking the nawbags for the privilege of living under this disgusting regime.

OK, I’ll kinda buy that but it does not explain why Humza Yousaf wants these people in Scotland.

It does though! We have a moral obligation to shelter refugees anyway but infinitely more so after invading Iraq illegally. Does it not turn your stomach listening to pig fancier Cameron stating publicly that these refugees are a ‘swarm’ of migrants?

You say, “Thing is though, these people are the cleanest, freshest, happiest smiling refugees I’ve ever seen on the news from past conflicts. They had mobiles strait off the boat, ”

but this is probably because its usually the wealthier that can afford to leave. The worst off will still be trapped in a war zone facing an unimaginable end. And it was caused by the UK and the US.

” … 10% of a lesser amount is greater than 100% of that same lesser amount.”

Lanarkist, Sometimes I get very, very tired of explaining all this and then having to do it again and again and again.

The UK (GOT THAT?) The UK does it’s books and it counts every penny of Oil & Gas revenue as being from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, and not from Scotland. They claim it ALL for HM Treasury. Not one single penny goes to Scotland.

That mythical 10%, (It’s actually only 8.4%), and it is not cash in hand of any kind and we actually never see that sum added anywhere to be spent by Scotland.

All it consists of is a statistics figure used when they start to work out such things as the Scottish GrossDomesticProduct. (That is the Scottish GDP).

Got it now, Lanarkist? They grab ALL the Cash and that 8.4% is just a per capita estimate of what the Scots earn for the United Kingdom Treasury but we never see a halfpenny of it. In fact the real sum earned by Scotland for the Treasury is 95% of the revenues by geographic location and not per capita.

What that means is no ,matter what the price of a barrel of oil and no matter what the tax is levied upon it, makes no difference whatsoever to the Scottish Block Grant. Furthermore, Scotland gets NO other funding than the Block Grant and that only depends upon the Barnett Formula and the Barnett Consequentials, (and the Consequentials ca be negative as well as positive.

@Davy
Even if every woman of child-bearing age could be persuaded to have a baby, and 500,000 were born next May, it would be 2034 before any of them were paying taxes, they’d be in low-paid jobs, so it would be perhaps another 10 years i.e. 2044 before their taxes would be worthwhile. Whereas “importing” people with skills would bring in revenue straight away.

It’s the proportion of working age people to retired age is the important factor, and that’s decreasing as we have an ageing population. It’s not a problem at the moment as we live shorter lives than the rUK, in fact we’re still a little better off for pension payments as a proportion, than the rUK. But it becomes steadily an incerasing problem, and around 2030 it becomes critical – in that year those 500,000 new births would still be at school!

I think you must have got a bit mixed up with your figures.
480,000 migrants? You seem to imagine Alex Salmond said we wanted this.

You may have mixed this up with the 480,000 immigrants we presently have in Scotland from England. No harm to these folk,they are mostly lovely people and they are sensibly coming to a better place to spend their later years but they are mostly economically totally inactive and are very much not the kind of immigrant we need. And they don’t produce the children we will need.

You hinted at it in your remarks. The immigrants we see coming across the sea can afford to do so as they are indeed some of the more successful people from these countries. There are many doctors and lawyers and teachers and business people fleeing the hell we have smashed their communities into.
They will be no burden to us but a huge loss to their own countries

OK. I kinda see that also but to encouage Scot’s to breed is no problem if the financial assistance to families was given, instead of supporting integration of an alien culture. Remember the Poles are just like us but not the migrants from Islamic countries.

The way I see it, the people trying to escape Syria are the ones who want no part in extremism.
They are trying to get away from the militant and rebel groups. They just want a peaceful life to bring up a family. Yes, some of them will turn out to be economic migrants, rather than genuine refugees, but these are the ones who are likely to work hard and be grateful to countries that took them in.
Many of those who escaped Syria have also been from the persecuted Christian population, of which there were a relatively high number for the middle east.

Sure, there needs to be efforts to help integration, but it will happen eventually. There was a viral tweet going about last month showing a picture of Steve Jobs with the simple words “A Syrian migrant’s child”

Here we are again. Does this Ex Scot not realize Scotland is not totally dependent on oil and can be regarded as a bonus,and I’m sure that most people feel that the price will rise at some point in the not too distant future.Scotland given the chance to run it’s own economy without the burden of Trident,House of Lords etc will flourish.

These people have little skills. Sure maybee the odd one or two but by and large, all these people will do is be a drain on resources. Zero integration, cause friction and crime to soar. They will just all pool in ghettos. Exactly like every other country over the years who has taken Islam into their community. Scotland will be exactly the same.

I do see them as a swarm and the only genuine refugees being the ones in the surrounding camps. Look how many of these chancers come from Pakistan and Bangladesh etc etc.

Naw. I’m not won over on this. It’s all a big con. Half my country want independence and half the Union. I’m very Eurosceptic as well. Scotland polls the same as UK as a whole on the EU in out. Jeez. I’m even more confused now. Salmond is going to have to come up with much better clear cut policies to win us over. Saltires or woad faces is not going to win anyone over. At least not yet.

OK Davy. Afore ye go, you’re a No but are you a devo-max vote or no change at all leaving it all as is?

Also if UK leaves the EU, it’s going to mean a lot of Brits lke you losing all and any rights to live, work and travel in Europe. Big returns of Brits now working/retired abroad, unless the UK can cut deals with

@Davy
You’re mixing the two things up. From Syria it’s refugees, though some of them will be able to produce the revenues, it’s immigration that Salmond was talking about. As I understood it there would be some sort of points system for that, and we’d get as someone else posted, more like 2 or 3 thousand a year, totally integrated, from the EU and all over the world.

The number of refugees on the other hand that Scotland will currently be taking, is just 1,000.

What Salmond said was that our net migration is currently 10,000, but we’d need that to be 24,000 per year. So an extra 14,000 per year. That’s normal immigration, skills, earners, points based system like Australia, Canada, US.

The 2,000 figure is refugees from Syria, and that’s basically a one-off. Well, if Scotland can’t absorb and welcome 2,000 refugees in desperate straits, then God help us, whoever our God is if we have one.

“George Osborne the magician, suddenly makes £5Billion pound appear out of thin air for infrastructure projects.

Does anybody know where he got this money from?

Yes, caz-m, of course we do. It has been explained here in depth many times.

No longer is the currency of a state or country tied to something like a gold standard. Now remember a country or state’s wealth is dependent upon their natural and human resources but their currency is not. The Bank of England has been doing quantitative easing for some time now.

Quantitative easing is a way of massively expanding the open market operations of the central bank. The bank buys securities from its member banks to add liquidity to capital markets. This has the same effect as increasing the money supply. In return, it issues credit to the banks’ reserves to buy the securities.

So where do member banks get the credit to purchase these assets? They simply create it out of thin air and only central banks have the unique power to do this. It is exactly the same as just printing money. Sae noo ye ken tae, caz-m.

And if you think it’s all a big con from the Indy side then, good, you’re half way there. All you have to do is accept it’s all a big con from the Unionist side, and then you’ll realise it’s up to you to find your way through the maze.

@Davy, Integration is a problem, but every country has to deal with that anyway. As a whole religion seems to be slowly dying out. And people are leaving because they want to leave extremism behind. The nutters are the ones heading towards Syria, not running away from it.

Sure it costs money to get people settled, but you get to a point where the benefits outweigh the costs. Just look at the USA. And you still need people prepared to do all the unskilled jobs that many people here just won’t do.

What will cost more money is trying to fund the NHS and services for a top heavy population of old pensioners with not enough of a younger working generation.

But I agree we need a broad mix of immigrants, and we are more likely to get that when Scotland has more of a thriving dynamic competitive economy than we have now as a northern region of the UK.

We have to remember that Scotland has plenty of room.
For many years we have had the opposite problem.Scots having to leave for for work or better prospects.

At the time of union, Scotland’s population was one quarter to one fifth that of England and Wales. Now it is under a tenth.
The Highlands were depopulated, Glasgow was dispersed. No political power, huge war losses. And two thirds of Scotland’s taxes were taken out of Scotland for “Imperial Services” resulting in poor housing, infrastructure and living conditions here.

So there is plenty of room.
The entire Borders region is mostly farmers fields.
Many big cities have more people than the whole of Scotland.

“Scotland does not need oil & gas to stand on it’s own two feet. We never got more than 10% of it anyway and the other 90% was squandered South of the Border.”

Sheeeesh! Not another one!

We don’t get, and never ever have had, a single penny of oil & gas revenues. See my previous post. Furthermore the mythical figure is 8.4% and it is an estimated figure for further statistical calculations only.

“More important is what happens to renewables , hydro, wind , waves , tidal ,solar which at present the Tories are trying to destroy the opportunities in Scotland for political reasons.

Yes.

“They have their Chinese funded nuclear and their own unpopular fracking. So it suits them for Scotland to be reliant on England to keep the lights on.”

Wrong! Last year Scotland exported over 25% of her generated power to England – even then the National grid charges Scottish generators large sums for every kilowatt of power they add to the grid but subsidises South English generators for every kilowatt of power they add to the grid.

“No doubt the SNP have foreseen this and will take the necessary steps to ensure our future energy needs.”

It is a still ongoing project. The SG is overseeing such things as new hydro schemes both natural storage and pumped storage but we really could do with some more non-weather reliant generation like tidal, wave and sea current generation although these are all under research and development just now.

“Provided they have not just become too comfortable with power for it’s own sake? Scotland must be free to make our own decisions on all things!!”

YES! YES! YES! (or as Wolfie in Citzen Smith used to say, “Power to the People”).

Good. Make yourself immune to propaganda from either side, whatever its source. Maybe when some report or other, like an IFS, NIESR one gets coverage in the media, read or listen to what the media says, then read the report in full, yourself – and compare the difference. Then you’ll see how twisted and distorted the media is, and that might help to cut through the murk and get things clear.

Brits living abroad are integrated into the host countries system with permanent residence or they are retired in the host, again permanent residence. Makes no difference in or out of the EU.

No they’re not. EU Directives on free movement of you basically, are only for EU citizens. It was one of the big Project Fear attacks on Scotland as an independent country but not an EU member.

Its also a giant tory and UKIP driver for EU exit but its also holding the UK in the EU because this UK.gov wants to end the primary right to live and work anywhere in Europe but they’ve been told its not an optional negotiable extra. You either abide by this fundamental directive or you leave.

You typed up above,I’m not a yes voter and never voted, so I came here to try and figure out who to side with.

What I can’t understand is this. You have been reading – and posting on – Wings since at least August 2012. I would have thought that, as you have stuck with Wings, you would have been persuaded by all the evidence that Rev Stu has presented since 2011, to have voted YES in the referendum, and to have voted in the recent general election, for whatever party.

How about explaining why you didn’t vote YES – and why you didn’t vote in the GE, after absorbing nearly 3 years of Rev Stu’s analysis at this site?

How did Rev Stu fail to persuade you to become an active elector?

In case you’ve forgotten, you can check out all your input to the site here:-

My sensitive Troll alarm is going like the clappers of the bells of hell but I’ll give you a few moments, Davy.

Migrants: – The ones with the mobiles are those who are fleeing for their lives but who were the more prosperous ones but also the better educated and qualified ones. That is the ones that would be the kind a prosperous Scotland needs most.

The ones back home that cannot afford to pay to escape the hell of their country are the least prosperous and uneducated. So do we want more unskilled labourers to, for example clean toilets or do we want Doctors, Scientists and engineers?

“The other thing, I remember Salmond stating he wanted 480,000 immigrant into Scotland. That’s a huge number to integrate, which by all other countries is impossible.”

It is in fact fairly modest. 480,000 in the least populated country in the entire EU. Fact is that UK Government figures show the truth is that the whole UK present immigrant population are a net financial asset to the UK and are less likely to be getting benefits than the native Britons.

Just by myself I know several places in Scotland where there is decent accommodation, Empty ex-MOD Married Quarters and for example that disused old prisoner of war camp outside Crief.

As for the rest of your spiel I detect a nasty strain of Xenophobia, (that is the dislike of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange).

Fact is the entire history of every country in the UK proves we are all a right old mixture with wave after wave of immigrants.

Here’s a sample for you. Genetic testing in the Northern Isles threw up the strange result of several examples of native North American tribes, (Red Indians to you).

Turned out these were the relatives of deceased, “Bay Boys”, of The Hudson Bay Company. It was dangerous work and if a trader died the Company used to send the wives and children, “Home”, to a land they had never before seen.

BTW: The company were still recruiting Bay Boys in Scotland in the 1980s. I wonder too, just how many Scots have Irish forefathers – both real Celtic Irish and former, “Plantation”, Scottish Irish?

I will keep an open mind but I do have one red line. Salmond was responsible for the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill being passed and it was needless. I am still gutted with this. Labour promised to amend the act. It needs reviewed. Maybe another vote winner for another large part of our population.

Alec Salmond isn’t in charge of the SNP anymore, but you know that don’t you. That aside.

The independence question is one of self determination. If you believe in that your default position would be YES. The economic argument would then be used to push you towards NO, not the other way round. So if anything it’s the job of the unionists to convince you it would be bad for the country (Scotland).

You use AS figures of 240,000 immigrants disingenuously. You knew that was over 20 years but you don’t mention that. Someone corrects this for you, in the process giving further insight into what the figures really mean and you then basically say you don’t believe the figures.

So no one will convince you because you don’t want to be convinced, or more likely you are just a troll.

By the way you said 24,000 immigrants a year is to many for Scotland, but you do know that last year net migration to the UK was 243,000, ALL of whom could come to Scotland if they want.

“Regards the Jocks being Geordies without the brains, it is in fact the other way around”.

It is indeed, ArtyHetty, and it was good natured banter when I did my, (very short), bit of deferred National Service, late 1950s.

The scheme was ending but deferred guys still got called up. Daft I know. I was an Air Cadet, worked for the Admiralty and they put me in the army.

Anyway! The Admiralty recalled me as more benefit to the MOD than as a squaddie. The Geordie being a Scot with his brains dashed out was the banter but we Scots always got on really great with the Geordies. I won’t go into their banter with us but it involved wellies and farmyard animals.

I think a few people on here are too suspicious. I can assure you I’m no troll. Of course I know that Salmond is not the figurehead but I do believe he has a huge say in everything. He’s certainly responsible for the policies which are now being implemented. I’m not going to lie. I’m pretty stuck with a couple of points I will be very difficult to be convinced to change. I never say never though.

I have a few things I do not like about the SNP. Again I will not lie. Most people do not agree 100 pc with all policies of a party. It’s learning how to compromise. I’m not going to ask any more. I’ll just read. Might post an odd comment but I won’t bomb a thread. It does appear trollish, I must admit. Sorry for that chap.

“OK, I’ll kinda buy that but it does not explain why Humza Yousaf wants these people in Scotland. It’s going to cost us much more in the long run, take them into an alien culture and they will never integrate.”

No disrespect, Davy but that’s utter Pish!
I went to school in Leith in the late 1940s/early 1950s and Leith was a real international port back then.

We had allsorts in our class and every damned one of them was integrated as Scots. Good grief we are the only country in Europe that has never had an official pogrom against the Jews and when the English did in 1290 the Scots took them in and there have been Jewish families in Scotland ever since. Think on that, Davy, English Jewish families integrated in, (particularly Glasgow), since 1290.

Scots have never ghettoised immigrants and they thus integrate often in less than a generation. Is there a place in Scotland without an Italian Café, Chippie, Ice Cream Parlour or Garage?

I admit we had a Little China around the Edinburgh/Leith Border but it was not a ghetto just an area with a mainly Chinese population. It was by no means exclusive to Chinese.

The only real problem immigrants in Scotland have had was sectarianism between Protestant and Catholic Irish folks.

My pleasure I assure you. The strange thing is the number of people who must have wondered how it worked but never thought to ask. The trouble seems to be that the so called experts speak in their own particular dialect of, “Jargon”. Yet the Jargon is specific to their own speciality and it is hard to understand.

I was employed as an industrial Civil Servant in an area of electronics that involved many other specialities like Nuclear Physics and even Quantum Mechanics.

No one could really take all this stuff in but we managed to gain enough knowledge to cope with our work. The bonus was that after some years of dealing with different scientific jargons we found we could, sort of, mentally translate it into fairly normal standard English.

What first seems complex in jargon often turns out to be simple in standard English.

Just an observation from the replies. Never was a fan of pseudo, quasi GCHQ talk. I mean come on … ” Jung ” , scopes and sig genny’s, bell acoustics and harmonic decay. FFS, all I ask was about migrants. You’re not going to tell me that the gimmigrants on TV have anything to offer Scotland. I mean we can all clearly see they’re engineers, scientists, doctors and nurses … yeah right ! Humza Yousaf was on a poorly thought out publicity stunt. Seems to be a trend with this chap. Salmond and Sturgeon’s belated attempt with social engineering has been rumbled a while now. You say there are no ghettos in Scotland, you obviously are well out of touch with reality. They are springing up all over Scotland and expanding. They do not integrate.

As for the sectarianism at football, well the rushed act was a disgrace. The whole of Scotland in agreement, was and is, nonsense. To be offended on behalf of some other group is just pathetic. Belting out the Billy Boys from the slopes of Ibrox is hardly cause for an act of law to be introduced. I say it’s against human rights of free expression. Timothy is no better, but neither side are offended. The offence is third party SNP ministers who rushed through this act in leu of expected independence at the last referendum. This would pave the way to open our borders to any swarm and would make anger and hatred from Joe Public an offence by law. It had little to do with football and you know it.

To bring me on side would require a more open SNP government. I must admit, I do like the idea but it has so many negatives. The SNP need to be more positive. Look. You are going on about another referendum but what about a currency ? Just that alone is a no go for thousands. Please do not put me down as a troll. I’m just being honest and there is no one anywhere who will answer these questions and doubts I have. Why do the SNP just not make a statement about a future currency. Is it because it WILL be the Euro ? So many questions but no answers.

Wishing to convert people to Yes is not enough. We need facts, not ” bans” on democratic websites. Independence is a very serious concept. It’s forever. Am I to be denied answers to akward questions? The SNP need to get serious. Trust me, we want to believe.

@Davy
Ah, Davy Davy. During the Ref I didn’t actually campaign for YES even though a long-term indy supporter. For me it’s their choice, not mine. I did try to counter the huge bias in the media, and the distorted reports from so-called independent bodies. But as I wasn’t trying to persuade people to vote YES I got to talk to a lot of NO voters, and undecideds, and that’s talk, not persuade.

The language you use in your postings is very “troll” like, but I found similar in the people I talked to, it largely comes from the Better Together side who got most of the media coverage. I forgot to say, none of the people I talked to were trolls, or even particularly interested in politics, just people.

Anyway, you’re still mixing up the 1 or 2,000 refugees curretnly being talked about, with the controlled immigration of 24,000 a year, 480,000 over 20 years, that Salmond talked about. One is emergency, the other is controlled. But you will find idy supporters who also have concerns about immigration taking away from local people getting jobs.

The euro – no chance of walking straight into it, there are preconditions, and before getting into the euro you have to spend 2 years in the ERM – Exchange Rate Mechanism, for which you have to have your own currency, or at least a currency you are controlling for your own purposes as a state. So day 2 after Indy, and day 1,000 after Indy, we will noe be part of the eurozone, and probably not using the euro. That was a BT lie.

OK. You told me no Euro but what currency then if the pound is not available ? Peg the Jock pound to Sterling ! Then what about after 3 years. We can see the EU is about to go down the tubes. 1 year max. At least when the migrants really start to come. Europe is teetering on the brink of destruction. All to come in millions and millions are these doctors and scientists and engineers from the Horn of Africa, etc etc. Perhaps Mr Yousaf can help them out of the boat too.

I really can’t get my head around this independence. I’m not going to get answers here on Wings, any more than from the SNP propaganda machine officially. I don’t believe the SNP have any credibile answers and because of this, Scotland will remain in Union. I shall leave you all to your den of pseudo Scottishness. Thank’s for the replies. Bye bye.

Could you or someone else explain why Alec Salmond was looking at using the Euro in the first place? Honestly, I think with iScotland, we would still be stuck with the pound and a London-centric monetary policy.

Also, I now have a name for the new Scottish currency. It’s going to be called the Dreichma. 😉

@Davy
The problem with currency is that there are no right answers, there are no wrong answers. There are several options and each has its pros and cons.

The SG path was formal currency union, and they decided Osborne was bluffing. The currency would have been the £ sterling (GBP).

But Salmond said the currency would be the pound, and that is correct. It would either have been an informal currency union – sterlingisation – where we just continued to use the £ as Ireland did to start with.

Or we would set up our own Scots pound – we already have banknotes for it – and peg that value to the sterling £. So £1 Scots = £1 sterling. That’s what Ireland did later.

Then at some time in the future when we needed to let the values drift for the sake of our exonomy and exports perhaps, we would go for a floating £ Scots, so £1 Scots = £1.1 sterling or £0.90 sterling. That’s also what Ireland did, later on again.

In all cases we have a £ in our pockets if we’re lucky, and can use it to buy goods, food, drink, day to day in our own country. It’s only when “going abroad” that it makes a difference which is which.

The £ whether Scots or sterling would be our “local” currency, the £ sterling our “foreign” currency, but both might be exactly the same £. Exactly as now, where when we go down to England we have to get English notes because most places down there don’t accept Scots ones.

@Hobbit
From 2007 National Conversation: “2.18 However extensive internal devolution may be, it is necessarily the case that the United Kingdom as a single state would have a single currency, whether sterling as at present or, at some future date, the euro. To join the euro, Scotland would therefore remain dependent on a decision of the United Kingdom Government and a referendum across the whole of the United Kingdom, rather than being able to join at a time best suited to Scottish economic circumstances.”

To Wingers – it’s worth reading that paper if you haven’t already.

Part answers your question though, by inference iScotland would only fo through the long process of joining the euro if it was actually suited to our economic circumstances.

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