My ‘lot’ is just fine and very fortunately for me, it will be until the end of my days. As such, I’m very happy with it.
What has happened today however, is the perpetuation of all that is wrong with the country:

The privileged retain their privilege
The bankers continue to receive bonuses for shafting the country
The zero-hours workers will remain on their zero hours contracts
The grossly overpaid public sector managers, will continue to milk the public
The tax dodgers will continue to sponge off the rest of us

Rotherham people hang your heads in shame! You had the chance to change, you chose to ignore the fact that 1400 plus young girls were raped and abused by mainly Pakistani gangs and driven around the borough by taxi firms owned by ex councilor Ackhtar and his cronies (Martini and Venture taxis) to elect a Not Fit For Purpose council, the corruption and fiddling will continue because you the people of Rotherham have given them a free hand to do it.
The old adage has come true “If you put a Labour rosette on a pig in Rotherham it would win.” I hoipe you are all proud of yourselves.

Well I have had posts removed from this forum so I stopped posting here.
When I was posting , and many here were saying that there is “change coming” , I told you that the population of Rotherham are pretty dim and that they will return the same people…… that there would be no “change from within” because Rotherham is incapable of solving it’s own problems.
When apathy rules and people bury their head in the sand, the only way to affect change is for an active minority to become involved in direct action, by which I don’t mean violence.

Once again, the poulation has voted in the same old monkeys to rule in the jungle. What did you expect ?

I have absolutely no doubt that when the outside agencies cease to oversee Rotherham’s local govenment, Rotherham will return to being a rotten borough.

Such progress is being made on the CSE front isn’t it ? How many CSE criminals in court ? How many police in court ? How many politicians and civil servants in court ?

And of course, there’s Doncaster and Sheffield CSE too isn’t there ? But of course, this is being better “managed” because “lessons have been learned” [ on how to expedite a better cover-up ] from Rotherham.

You say the ‘same old monkeys’, but of the 3 MP candidates, one has only been around a couple of years. And as I understand it, most of the Labour candidates were standing for the first time. There are still some old Labour monkeys around (one was re-elected having lost a year ago in Valley), but the Labour Party in Rotherham seems to be changing. – with the old guard on the way out.

On a positive side Anston W and Dinnington and also Rothervalley had more votes opposed to the Labour candidates who won. Anston W, Dinnington and Rothervalley we are now represented by people who don’t live in our village or constituency. Kevin Barron lives in the Hopevalley, his Hellaby address is just a flat. It makes me personally sick to think people can just stick their heads in the sand and ignore what was done to the 1400 girls and vote Labour.

Funny because Labour aren’t a credible party and people in Rotherham shamefully voted for them. As for UKIP they got just under 13% of the vote, more than the SNP and Libdems and get 1/60th of the representation. 13% of people are not being represented in our so called democracy.

” We alus vote wi Labour round ere” Never a truer word spoken Paul Wilson…. I can hear the echo of my lovely parents (now deceased) saying the same thing and they were definitely not politically savvy. God bless em……

It’s curious isn’t it how certain people ridicule the working class for blind loyalty to Labour but never question that the rich always vote Tory. I have spoken to many many voters these last few weeks, many of whom are definitely politically savvy but would never vote for any party other than Labour precisely because they are politically savvy and they know that Labour best represents their values and interests.

Rik, this thread is about the parliamentary election results though, not the DLP. And it’s precisely because I know some people share your view of Rotherham Labour that I was so surprised at UKIP’s failure in the local elections today. I wonder if the people calling the Rotherham electorate dim and stupid were saying that 12 months ago when they elected 10 UKIP councillors? I doubt it so why have they become stupid in the last year?

Having just returned from the council election count you would not detect that the Labour council had been found not fit for purpose and was being run by commissioners. The arrogance of Labour is beyond belief, great celebrations and kisses and hugs for the useless prats that we have had foisted on us. Good luck Dinnington because you are going to need it, voting Mallinder in takes us on a journey to no where. Hope they issue her with a satnav because she wont find her own way here on her own.

Sir Nutkin was there all smiles and kissy kissy, there’ll be no stopping the squirrel now, won his crappy court case and won the election; how much more of these joyous things can one Sir Nutkin take. With a bit of luck his nuts will explode.
Dave Smith

Last year in the Borough Council elections, UKIP candidates were elected in 10 wards; this year UKIP candidates were only elected in 3 wards (Sitwell, Kepple and Hellaby – all of which had elected UKIP candidates last year), the other 7 wards that had elected UKIP councillors last year, all returned Labour party candidates this year.
I am at something of a lost to explain this.

I think you will find in Anston W and Dinnington the Tory vote went up considerably, taking away UKIP votes. Anti Labour votes were much higher in both these seats. The threat of the SNP and Labour getting in, motivated more to vote Tory.

I don’t think the good folks of Rotherham, for all there troubles, would’ve been thinking of the SNP threat. Simply they voted for what they thought was the best option to represent their interests and it wasn’t UKIP .

Tim
I’ve had time to look at those results now.
The obvious difference between 2014 and 2015 is the total vote cast – driven by it being a Parliamentary election year.
Dinnington – no Tory stood last year, but one did this year.
2014:
UKIP 1293 42% of the vote
Labour 1195 39%
2015:
UKIP 1746 30%
Labour 2037 35%
Tory 1106 19%
My own interpretation of this is that UKIP can only ever get out a limited set of loyal voters, whilst there are many other voters who are happy to vote against Labour but who would never vote for UKIP.
(Something like this may have happened for Dave Smith – 525 votes this year, 579 last year – yet the total vote increased by 2688) .

Anston W. – a Tory stood in both years.
2014:
UKIP 1307 38%
Labour 1339 39%
Tory 555 16%
2015:
UKIP 1819 31%
Labour 1873 32%
Tory 1303 22%
The Tory significantly increased their vote, but at the expense of Labour and UKIP equally.
________________
The Anston Parish Council Watch blog offers an alternate view:
“It is beyond doubt that John Ireland’s candidacy allowed the Labour candidate to win in Anston and Woodsetts. Ireland’s self confessed ”I’m standing out of spite” ploy gave his political masters – the Labour party – the opportunity to make sure their candidate won the Borough seat. Guided and mentored by Labour’s failed ex-councillor Dalton he (Robert Taylor) will no doubt follow her advice and put the Labour party’s interests above the interests of Anston and Woodsetts residents. Perhaps John Ireland is very proud of his effort? He should be ashamed of himself. Time for you to go John and do us all a favour.”

Yet Ireland standing as an Indie got only 523 votes, 9%.
_______________________________
So you are not the only one looking for a reason why UKIP failed to get in.
Perhaps the elephant in the room was the UKIP candidate himself – he was a constant in all of this, as was the Green Party candidate, whose share of the vote also decreased.
.

Don’t be silly, Barron is not going to give up his wages and other benefits for doing nothing and then appear in the Lordsand not get paid. They’ve tighten up the rules on scams in the Lords these days. Remember Jack Straw?

It doesn’t help to call the electorate “dim” or “stupid”. 65,000 people voted for Labour across the 3 constituencies and all 3 MPs now have increased majorities. It could be described as stupid to dismiss that. UKIP will not get a better chance of electoral success and just like in last year’s PCC election they threw it away by selecting poor candidates and using CSE victims as a political tool. I suspect the majority of those 65,000 voters just couldn’t contemplate being represented in parliament by the hapless UKIP trio. I was out on the knocker yesterday afternoon with Sarah Champion in Rotherham East and it was apparent that those we spoke to have a very low opinion of UKIP in general and Jane Collins in particular.

I was surprised at the local election results this afternoon as I had expected UKIP to do well. I think it was reasonable to expect them to win in at least the 10 seats where they already have councillors. If voters in those wards think their UKIP councillors are doing a good job surely they would vote for more of the same. The fact that they didn’t is in my opinion a reflection of their levels of satisfaction with the 10 UKIP councillors who were elected last May.

I don’t like the result of the general election. I fear that 5 years of a Conservative government will signal the end of the NHS, decimation of public services, even more (than the current 1 million) people relying on foodbanks, crippling welfare cuts and increased child poverty. I don’t call the electorate stupid for consigning us to this bleak future. It’s called democracy.

Robin, I guess if we are both around in 5 years we will see whether your future projection is a valid comment or just another Socialist spin. However I remember very well as a child my Mother pushing a pram in the middle of the night to the local slag heap to pinch coal bits for the fire. (They had nothing)… My Mother took in washing and worked in factories along with my father…. There are other such memories I have, it’s not necessary to mention here except to say all this under a Labour government of the day…

Am I correct in thinking you currently live in New Zealand? Well, in England 1 million people used foodbanks last year (many of whom are in work). The Rotherham foodbank has seen the number of people relying on it double over the last 12 months. This is not post-war Britain but the Britain where the Tories tell us our economy is on the mend and Cameron today said we’re on the verge of something special!

Robin, in the name of accuracy, can I say that your “1 million people used foodbanks last year ” is incorrect.
“More than 1 million people used food banks last year: that’s not what the evidence shows” https://fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/food_bank_number-40853
They also provide links to this government report :

… and prior to that there was the All-Party Parliamentary Group’s reports:https://foodpovertyinquiry.wordpress.com/
_____________
Nowhere in any of this is abuse or fraud relating to the use of the foodbank system reported on.
Substance and alcohol abuse is mentioned, but this of course is not the same as people choosing to buy “I phones, Ipods the latest massive TVs and sound systems etc” in priority to food.
In fact the only prior reference to any of this that I can find is in a piece by renown social commentator Katie Hopkins in the HuffPo
“The Real Reason Food Banks Have Trebled”http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/katie-hopkins/food-bank-real-reason-use-has-trebled_b_4121733.html
where she concludes, “Of course there are genuine food bank users. But the massive growth in these food banks is not because more people are hungry. It is largely because we are feeding the dirty habits of people perfectly happy to live a life on the take.”
RR

I am trying to reply to my friend RR, so hope he picks up on this… Anyway Reg thanks for your comment . One thing people in Rotherham and the rest of the world have learned to their hurt is that the official statistics have very little to do with the truth. Something the concerned people who were at ground level dealing with the CSE learned first hand….They were ignored and the results are now history.
Katie Hopkins report is absolutely correct and those who operate food banks have constant difficulty sorting out where the real needs are. Career bludges have learned multiple ways of getting food. They happily travel from one food bank to the next town with the same ‘ desperate ‘ need. Food banks in certain areas in NZ are now linked and have a data base in order to try and stop career thieves from abusing the generosity of ordinary folk. While operating our food bank I did my own research only I didn’t look to media stats ,I researched what difficulties other food banks were having. Each and every one had the same problem trying to be a step ahead of thieves and bludgers.. For us at ground level it is not difficult to pick what their ‘priorities’ are and why they are in need of food.
The reason official stats are unreliable Reg is because political opposition use lies to further their own cause and not interested in truth. Anyone who doubts the truth of food banks needs to volunteer for a minimum of a year and then make comment.
Let me say that it is not rich people who are the food suppliers but mainly ordinary workers and a large percent of pensioners.
How we make sure that children are fed and adults responsible is a task that concerns me . I believe that’s why food banks keep going in the hope that the unfortunate children will be fed at least…. There are of course genuine people who unfortunately feel they are tarred with the same brush… We can tell the difference…..
My friend received a request from a bloke who had just moved to another rental property ( they do that a lot) and said he had no money for food. My friend put together food parcels and drove to his home. No one was there so she off loaded the food at his porch. As she was doing this he appeared with his mates coming out of the pub…. Red faced he said they were not drinking just playing pool. The lady delivering the food was a 78 year old woman with obvious disabilities. Had I been on duty that day ( and not being so charitable) I probably would have put the food back in my car with the exception of the spuds and they would have been wearing those. I have since learned the difference between a helping and being an ‘enabler.’
What does all this have to do with politics? I think it shows that not everything gets fixed by the government of the day and some problems go deeper than money can solve.

No the electorate wasn’t stupid, they voted in the Tories again and wipe out the Labour Party in Scotland. The problem with the Labour Party is it’s still thinking that it knows best for people. How to spend your money, paying more out in welfare handouts, without realising that it needs reforming, as it’s not fit for purpose, for god sake it was created in 1945. There is is much more that’s wrong with Labour, but l’m contented it won’t get power for a long time.

It’s me again Robin, and yes I do live in NZ but have been a fairly frequent visitor to the country of my birth which I love…Also I am related to a used to be Labour councilor. So I do have some experience with Labours dedication to the working classes which incidentley I have belonged to all my life.
I have also until recently ran food banks . I know from first hand knowledge who uses and abuses food banks and why. Along with my other volunteers being able to determine real need from people who are career abusers is difficult to determine.. Numbers using them can be an inaccurate picture of real need.. .You see, if we (operators of food banks ) tell the truth to politicians there are indeed many abusers in the food bank ranks we will be jumped all over for not being PC….I also know the folk who consistently donate to food banks….As a distributor I have often felt that I have betrayed generous ordinary peoples donations by supporting people who call their necessities booze and drugs, I phones, Ipods the latest massive TVs and sound systems etc…The generous donators I can catagorically say are not necessarily Labour voters but obviously some are. The proliferation of drugs and annual alcohol consumption would give a fairly good indication what and why there is poverty on such a massive scale. Of course I am not suggesting there should be no food banks but I am advocating families and communities that look out for each other and not so reliant on nanny states.

There should be no need for foodbanks in this the 6th richest nation on earth. I’m not sure how easy it is to abuse foodbanks in the UK. Most people who attend them are referred by Jobcentre plus when they’e sanctioned them i.e. stopped their benefits.

PS Robin, Supporting children of food bank abusers is a definite necessity … I often preferred monetary donations as well as food so I could give money to schools on children’s behalf so they were assured of a good meal at least and have a school uniform when required. Trying to run an honest and fair system is a mission indeed.

Robin, it is very easy to abuse foodbanks. The fact that they are referred by Job centres is no indication of need. I am in complete agreement with you that there should be no need for foodbanks Robin but governments cannot control how people use their money….We can’t blame the government for everything….
It would be a good idea to volunteer for one year in helping run a food bank Robin….
It’s been a really good enlightenment . I have been met by vicious pit bulls and beer drinking unemployed able bodied men tell me where to get off when offered free budget advice. Some people love their ‘necessities’ more than they love their kids. Governments can’t fix that other than condemn it which of course is not PC

How nice to hear the truth about food banks. I have always believed there are very few people who actually need food banks, if any, and that it is a system so open to abuse by the many bone idle people who refuse to work.

I did say (several times) don’t take it for granted that Labour would have the collapse that some people posting on here expected.

I also said that Labour knew what they were doing when they pounded the streets, knocked on doors and flooded every household with leaflets (I had 7 in my house in total).

They knew that advertising works, they knew that keeping the Labour brand in peoples mind would keep them in power despite their many shortcomings (just like the iphone, everyone wants one because the advertising people tell them they need one despite the fact they are expensive and break every time you drop it).

Its got nothing to do with which is the best party or the best candidates for Rotherham, its got everything to do with:

A weak and unprepared opposition.
Putting more marketing materials out than the opposition
Knocking on doors and speaking to people and convincing them Labour can still be trusted

In short, they did everything in the Labour party’s guide to campaigning and it worked for them.

Well done people of Rotherham for voting in a bunch of inept, not fit for purpose councillors who can now ride hide and do whatever they want.

I Machin, how right you are about the Labour advertising. Yes, they spent an absolute fortune on using the postal system (Not cheap) which only Labour could afford. Conservative could perhaps but they know they would be flogging a dead horse in Rotherham. UKIP and the Independents certainly couldn’t afford it, so how fare is that? So, where has this money come from for all these postage costs? The working man of course, through the Unions who bleed their membership just to prop up the very party which abuses them, Labour! It’s a bloody corrupt world we live in and there non as corrupt as Labour.

Anon, you do make me laugh. Who said it is fair and what would you suggest to make it fair? Should all political parties be tied to the spending of the poorest candidate? The Tories have by far the biggest coffers thanks to their big business donors (in 2014 donations totalled £28,930,508). By contrast the Green Party received just £661,410 in donations last year whilst UKIP received £3,847,474.

As to where does Labour get its money from, well, it has 200,000 members whilst UKIP has 39,000. That’s 200,000 members who pay subscriptions and many thousands of them have also donated towards Labour’s general election campaign. Labour too receives donations from business leaders such as Andrew Rosenfeld and Alan Sugar but, as you point out, it does receive significant donations from affiliated trade unions. You really need to get over this. The Labour Party was founded by the trades unions and that association has lasted more than a hundred years.

If you’re a trade union member and your union is affiliated to the Labour Party, a small percentage of your subscriptions will go to the Labour Party. However, you can opt out of this donation. I don’t think many union members would say they are bled dry by their union, as you put it. In my union you actually have to opt in to the ‘Labour Link’ and if you do then 6.5% of your subscriptions (£9 per year) go to Labour. That’s hardy bleeding dry is it?

Of course one of the greatest strongholds of the Labour Party was the West of Scotland, that was so ever since the Party’s inception.

But look what has just happened, the Scots have just annihilated Labour in their country. They considered that the party which was their own, which ran through their DNA, had betrayed them. And they decided to punish it savagely.

But how much greater has the betrayal been in England where Labour has tacitly pimped English girls into the vilest sexual slavery for bloc votes?

I just find it so sad that so many thousands of English people in one of the, many, grooming hotspots have stayed with this diseased, pox-ridden threadbare comfort blanket of a party.

Is it Stockholm Syndrome? Well, maybe

About 50 years ago the Marxist historian wrote “The History of the English Working Class” – a labour of love and a eulogy which now reads as an epitaph

from hero to zero within a few decades.

Could there be anything more nauseating than Champion’s canting, conventional left-liberal pieties?

“In her victory speech, Ms Champion said: “There have parties trying to divide this down. I’m so proud Rotherham has said absolutely no way.

“We will get the pride back in this town together.”

She said afterward: “There have been a lot of parties and media trying to create division. Rotherham has said no, we are not having that and we do want to go forward.”

Sheffield Star

She obviously doesn’t consider the rape, torture, trafficking, pimping epidemic and the associated community omerta divisive

Under Labour, nothing’s going to change – they haven’t even apparently completed their “investigation” into the suspended councillors yet

Still girls 4 votes remains their Achilles Heel and if enough people are persistent for long enough it may be that a Scottish moment awaits Labour in the North and Midlands down the track.

Wellcome to “Rotherhamistan” twined with Islamabad. Rotherham is now stuffed the labour councilors won’t do or say anything about the Pakistanis for fear of losing their votes thereby having their noses pulled firmly from the troff.

What we seem to be losing sight of is that we can still bring these councillors to account, we attend their surgeries, we can attend council meetings to question them directly. Also don’t lose sight of the fact that they are still run by the commissioners. The problem is that not enough people get involved in bringing them to account, now is the time to keep at them and make them what they don’t like doing, working for their constituents. I can assure you that Mallinder will not be having an easy life for the next year in her Dinnington ward, if she thinks she boarded the easy life gravy train she needs to get of now.
Dave Smith

I am not happy with the results of the General Election. I’ve never voted Tory and I find their ‘look after number one and only number one’ tendencies personally abhorrent. But that’s me and many disagreed on Thursday – as is their right.

Nationally all I now see is 5 more years of pain and and scapegoating for millions, the destruction of the NHS, zero hours contracts, the regions (especially regions who didn’t vote Conservative) going ignored, low pay, austerity for a political sake, a withering away of working and daily rights and the absence of vital pubic services for millions while meanwhile the fat cats getting fatter and foodbanks flourish. However despite, the result – a result I didn’t want – I don’t resort to calling the audience of voters stupid – indeed I think that people who espouse this theory will find it counter productive.

I may not like the result of the GE but what we saw was democracy in action. It may be a flawed and unrepresentative democracy – I would prefer proportional representation- but we have to accept the election wasn’t fought under those rules – while still fighting our own particular corner – whatever political hue we may espouse.

Personally – as I said I would do – I voted for Ms Champion because she was by far the best candidate in Rotherham, and like I said they would do most I know, including many who voted UKIP at the last council elections, did the same. If UKIP want to understand why that happened they have to ask why not insult.

Regarding the local elections UKIP’s record got stuck. They offered little but soundbite at a time when minds became more centred on solutions. Indeed I found that to be UKIP’s main weakness. They did not engage in a positive way – and in my ward no one can recall seeing a representative from UKIP in any shape or form. In addition when it comes to CSE most see the issue as what can we do to support the victims and ensure justice is done – not a party political issue. Feelings and a mindset UKIP have ignored.

As for all local representatives all have to now look at working together to fight for the town. Yes their will be political differences, rightly so, but Rotherham is going to need a loud unified voice in this post election Tory reign regarding funding and initiatives for the town. We need a loud voice so we an be heard with those voices concentrating on the need for more investment, initiatives, funding and control. We could learn a from the people of Scotland in this regard – without the narrow nationalism of course.

In my opinion, and I could be wrong of course, what the General Election, events in Scotland and the Local Election in the town have shown is people want a forward looking vision that takes them with them – not a retrospective one that divides and leaves them thinking ‘we knew that but you are all the same.’ They want to see what is going to be done and how not what happened. (And I don’t mean CSE in this case – we should always remember) The people in Rotherham are not stupid – as some on here loudly and wrongly proclaim – they have hopes, dreams,opinions, solutions and concerns. The people of Rotherham – like most in big urban areas who mostly rejected the Tory line – also have different daily concerns and needs from those is the Tory areas – and we need to constantly fight that corner and for them to remind Westminster that we are here and we have a voice and needs too.

By all means lets the local politicians disagree as they will and should at times. There should be disagreement and opposing views. By all means let them put forward opposing beliefs but when it comes to fighting Rotherham’s corner as a town, in a political landscape we are out of tune with, they should come together and speak loudly together – not accuse people who don’t vote for the as ‘being stupid’ and bicker. This town, not the place I was born in, is a town I love and I fear for its future under the new Government. By all means let’s carry on disagreeing and debating local issues but not lose national focus. And let’s not call each other stupid just because we may disagree – because if we carry on doing that central Government will just say ‘ well they said it – let’s ignore the stupid fools’.

SKT xxxx

PS: to all those who have asked and shown concern my mother is getting better and out of the critical stage. There’s a long way to go but I thank you for your kind concerns whatever political hue. Your kindness, humanity and thoughts was and still is appreciated by all here in my clan.

And just look at the mess we’re in because of the unions- no steel industry, no coal industry, no ship building industry, infact no manufacturing base whatsoever. UKIP believe in prosperity Labour believe in “The Magic Money Tree”.

This one is for Robin Symonds… Hope he picks up on this comment’
You wouldn’t have the energy to reply to my comment Robin because it takes time and one must also be willing to hear the truth because it often contradicts our mindset. I would be more willing to accept there may be a difference between NZ foodbanks and British ones but not from somebody who still believes the naked king is still wearing his altogether clothes. Your uninformed silly response shows you have no personal experience of the people who run food banks and don’t care what abuses they face so long as you can use a lie as a political tool.

PS for Robin Symonds and his chum RR Anyone with 2 fingers can google ‘ Misuse of food banks’ and there is more than enough evidence to verify my comment on misuse by some on food banks. Can’t be sure if RR’s research proves he either can’t see the evidence or won’t see it…..
Robin, if Labour won the election I would lay a bet that use of food banks would not decline but rather increase because the misuse (not proper use) of them has nothing to do with politics.

Quote from Rotherham;
”
And just look at the mess we’re in because of the unions- no steel industry, no coal industry, no ship building industry, infact no manufacturing base whatsoever. UKIP believe in prosperity Labour believe in “The Magic Money Tree”.”

Yes they existed and so did “Red Robbo” and all the other millitant union leaders in the docks, steelworks, coal mines, electicity workers and so on. Don’t get me wrong SKT I was allways a member of a Trade Union and was a shop steward a Robert Jenkins & Co. Ltd. until I saw how corrupt the then works convenor Trevor “Tonksy” Tonks was, screwing his own members for his own gain, but thats another story for another day. If the trade unions had adapted and embraced modern working pratices which they new were coming instead of sticking their heads in the sand, and striking because “Jims tea went cold while he was reading his newspaper” we might well have had a manufacturing industry to be proud of. Instead it’s all gone to foreign company’s.

Robin
What are you now saying the unions control Labour every ware except Rotherham
Sorry Robin Rotherham is well entrenched in the union pocket so they must take collective responsibility for the state it’s in

Once again Caven you aren’t reading what I’ve actually written. I did not say the union’s control Labour. I wish it were true but alas it isn’t. I would genuinely be interested if you were able to give some examples of how this control has manifested itself in Rotherham. The only 3 areas where I can think the unions had any influence over the past year are the campaigns tto save the children’s centres, which resulted in a partial success, the NUT/GMB campaign to save Abbey School, which UKIP supported and UNISON’s Living Wage campaign, which resulted in RMBC implementing the Living Wage after councillors voted unanimously for it (including you Caven).