Archie Bunker always used to tell his wife Edith to “Stifle!” when he no longer wanted to hear her speak. In the ongoing debate regarding the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, the idea of women being silent in church is often brought up to prove something about my true adherence to Scripture. (It should be noted that I do not claim to be the perfect representation of Christian living, but only that I don’t try to twist Scripture to justify my failures.)

The argument is that since Paul speaks of women being silent in churches, that it shows that change has come to the Body of Christ and thus, such change can and/or has also come regarding the Church’s position on homosexual behavior. Well, I had never spent much time looking at those verses that claim that women stifle themselves in church, but considering the choir in mine, that wouldn’t be a good thing. In addition, I had always felt that there was much more to the story but that there were far more important concerns.

Since the argument has come up again, and by a particular visitor who relies on it greatly, I have begun to research the issue and among the many sites I’ve visited in this quest, this one explains the issue in a manner that matches what I had basically felt from my own Biblical study. I doubt it will suffice for the visitor in question, but it is a sensible and logical explanation nonetheless.

The site from which it comes, “The Refiner’s Fire” is an interesting site I intend to examine further, but whether or not one agrees with what they say, I don’t think they are off base at all regarding the issue at hand. As I’ve said, I’ve visited several other sites and have found pretty much the same thing. I just like the way it’s laid out at this site.

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"So one's urges aren't as important as how one deals with them. There is [no] difference between gay and straight as long as they deal with their urges in a manner pleasing to God. "I agree this far. But what is pleasing to God is that sex be a part of giving oneself in love and commitment. One can't begin to give oneself if you make them deny who they are. You cripple the plan for sex in this way.

Galatians does not say there is no black nor white, either, but we were able to use Galatians to figure this out for ourselves.This is how Christian reflection on scripture works, Marshall, discovering new apprehensions of God's love and truth. Sometimes we come to a tipping point before which the Church was not mature enough to understand and after which, we are.

You are the tight-assed child who loves that Mother says you can't take down the cookie jar until after dinner. You don't know that she tells you this and not me because you are not yet mature enough to handle the cookie jar on your own.This is basically what Paul and Peter are saying about the role of the law and the force of the Gospel.The age of Leviticus is not my point. The age of the style of Biblical interpretation you've inherited is part of your problem, and it leads you to carve up Leviticus in such a way that is far more dishonoring of Holy Scripture than my finding Leviticus superseded by the Son of God.You carve it up, I embed it in the living Christ.Which sounds more sound?

Yeah, like how you get your bib overalls in a twist when I use the word, "God." As if that's his name… as is if God is a He.You have yet to grow up as a Christian.You know, sometimes I put my coffee cup on the Bible. I don't even have a built in, nitrogen gas filled case for it like you.

"we are bound by the laws of our country to the extent that they do not stomp on HIS laws…"GEEZ (as if that's not simply colloquial stand-in for) God! That's not exactly what the passage says, Marshall.You're adding to God's word here.

"What progressive bullshit and what a perfect example of being in the world! NEW TIMES! What a completely false and stupid priest. We are the same as the ancient Hebrew and those before."Marshall, Marshall here you've not only spilled out ad hominem after ad hominem (Bubba would love counting all these – I bet you have half a hundred in all your froth) but now you have lost scripture altogether. You say, "We are the same as the ancient Hebrew and those before."Colossians 3:10 & 11 says, "you have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator."Poor Marshall, ranted himself right on the tracks of oncoming scripture… and was flattened like a pancake.

"And finally, Marshall's understanding of either of Peter's Epistles leaves much to be desired. He doesn't understand that he is the type of person against whom Peter warns, one who falsely teaches that which leads to the rejection of restraint and self-control. He thinks he understands to whom Peter writes and believes that what he tells them is some ambiguous conservative claptrap that he himself imparts whenever he gets the chance. "They need Christ's power to live a holy life"? What the hell does THAT mean? Apparently that means to you that people are only holy if they keep every letter of a book — except where YOU say they don't – and that Christ no long has any power in himself. Only people who read the Bible like they're from the nineteenth century prairie, they're the only ones who have it right. THEY'VE GOT CHRIST'S POWER! You're a fool's fool."

""Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman…"is a ritual/purity law, embedded in all the other you don't slavishly follow." No. It is a moral law. A law regulating our behavior. A law you reject in order to please people rather than God. It is not I that picks this law out of the group. It is you and people like you who are more interested in appearing "Christian" to those who also have rejected this law.You continue to make this claim that I follow some of His laws and don't follow others. Someday you'll have to prove this sorry assertion."So, no, we do not do what you do when you claim – despite being a temporal – limited human being, to have a absolute claim on Truth." Absolute crap, of course, as you continue to chastise me for preaching something so easy to understand as "Thou shalt not…" You are absolutely certain that somehow, by means only progressive false priests, Christians and homosexuals can understand, that God has, through His Spirit, overturned His position on homosexual behavior. And then you condescend to the rest of us who look to the Bible for instruction on what is sinful and what isn't.There is no issue of pride in my position. There is only God's Will as revealed in Scipture and an honest, objective reading of that Scripture to come to the only possible conclusion an honest person can.

""the why's and wherefor's regarding which of those laws still apply and which don't…"Like I said, an approach to scripture that hops and skips for reasons that are constructed out of nothing but what you need the Bible to say." Again, an accusation you have yet to prove, while in the meantime, the issue is the twisting and distorting necessary to arrive at your position."But what is pleasing to God is that sex be a part of giving oneself in love and commitment." An invention of your own, unsupportable by anything in Scripture. Perhaps the "spirit" told you that?"One can't begin to give oneself if you make them deny who they are." You mean like denying one's greedy nature? One's violent nature? One's self-serving nature? I deny no one anything. Christ requires that we give up our old selves to follow Him. YOU insist that we cling to our sinful ways because to do otherwise is to deny who we are. Child."You cripple the plan for sex in this way." You twist the plan for sex to include that which He has called an abomination.

"Galatians does not say there is no black nor white, either, but we were able to use Galatians to figure this out for ourselves." Race, like ethicity, is not a behavior. There have always been people who have undestood this, otherwise slavery would still be practiced as it was before. Keep in mind that it was generally Christians who spoke out against the previously poor interpretations of the past, those that were man-serving interpretations, like your position on homosexuality, rather than God-serving interpretations. It was the Spirit acting through those God-serving people that brought about the current understanding."You are the tight-assed child who loves that Mother says you can't take down the cookie jar until after dinner. You don't know that she tells you this and not me because you are not yet mature enough to handle the cookie jar on your own." An example of the pride of which you accused me. You pridefully view yourself as above Mom's law when you're only a year older (though in reality your argument's are like that of a small child) and still subject to them."The age of Leviticus is not my point. The age of the style of Biblical interpretation you've inherited is part of your problem…" Nonsense. We are the same as the ancient peoples with all the same desires and temptations. The nature of man and the human condition has not changed one iota in all of human history. This is even as obvious as the meaning of "Thou shalt not…" You wish to pretend you are somehow more than ancient people and not in need of God's guidance, that somehow you can handle that cookie before dinner. And you dare ascribe the word "hubris" to me."You carve it up, I embed it in the living Christ." Not even close to accurate. Here's accuracy: I adhere to what is easy to understand. You claim it is mysterious and open to untold interpretations, which allows you to believe what is convenient and self-serving. There's no soundness in your methods unless self-satisfaction is the goal.

"Yeah, like how you get your bib overalls in a twist when I use the word, "God." " It's not MY bib overalls over which you should concern yourself. And it's the name we use, so try and worm your way out of that with Him."You know, sometimes I put my coffee cup on the Bible." I'm not surprised the way you spit on it's teachings as you do. I'm well aware of the difference between a book and my Lord. I seek to honor Him by adhering to the teachings in the Book. I've worn a copy or two in the process and not felt I've been disrespectful by doing so. But YOU disrespect Him by supposing you are above the teachings of the Book and deciding for yourself what is and what isn't sinful as if He has ever given any human the right to do so."You're adding to God's word here." Not at all. I'm only correcting your poor understanding of it."Marshall, Marshall here you've not only spilled out ad hominem after ad hominem…" Not at all. I'm only describing you as you are."Colossians 3:10 & 11 says, "you have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator."" This is not the same as being human and subject to the same temptations and desires as every human who ever existed. The verse refers to the change that should happen within the heart of one who accepts Christ and His teachings. Man's nature doesn't change, his desire to either succomb to it or control it does. As to your last to me, change every word I say and you still haven't changed the truth. But if it makes you feel better, continue on your way to perdition.

Your theology (to the extent you are conscious of having one) about not having a changed nature is entirely opposed to the theology of the Christian life presented in Colossians and in Romans 8, especially v. 9 and ff.And the reason that Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision is used in Colossians is exactly to talk about past behaviors. Greek is what is used, not for one ethnicity as you think, but for the entire non-Jewish world with all its many ethnicities. Circumcision and uncircumcision was a behavioral act controversial because of its religious import, not its ethnic identification, since many non-Jews took up circumcision.You've stepped in it, again, Marshall, since you are not a very developed student of the NT.Another way to know that the writer of Colossians is talking about behavior is the presence of "Scythians" in the list.Paul and his world only knew them as ancient mythic people who were barbarians in BEHAVIOR.They are only useful to mention here since, no longer existing, it was there legendary behavior that served his point.Also note that here in Colossians he does not mention "male of female."So, in this way, again, you miss the import and so cannot climb aboard the movement of the Holy Spirit today.

You're an idiot. The whole thing has to do with the fact that we are NOT separated from God by virtue of being Jewish or not, but that we are all God's children open to His Promise for mankind. It has nothing to do with behaviors, unless you mean that thieves and liars are no different than honest men and need only accept Christ without rejecting their stealing and lying ways. Boy, what an idiot you are.

It means that behavior alone separates from God.Not expressing who we are as God made us.If a Jew, then fine. Be a good Jew and do not make war against your semitic brothers.If a Christian, then fine. Be a good Christian and do not support imperial behavior that lords it over others, and do not support the hedonistic and sexualized tendencies of capitalism and popular fetishes.Whether a man or a woman makes no difference. Be a good woman and a good man in the things you choose for you life. You can lead, you can serve, you can do whatever; your gender means nothing. It is your behavior.If black, white, brown, yellow, it means nothing in God's eyes concerning moral value. It is your behavior. Be a good white man, which means never thinking your whiteness means anything of hierarchal value.If a Muslim, then be a good Muslim and do not wage extremist war against your semitic brothers and do not hate those who are not Muslim.If a Buddhist, be a good Buddhist and do not support oppressive and murderous regimes.If a gay man, be a good gay man and do not launch out on hedonism as a salve against the way so many in our society hate you for what you are. You have allies.If a lesbian woman, be a good lesbian woman.This is the message of Galatians and Colossians for someone living two thousand years after Paul's wisdom – but not for the hermetic, soul killing idiots like yourself.

Well you're only partially correct. Homosexuality in and of itself is merely a condition, a desire, a state of mind. But to freely, willingly and eagerly seek out a partner with whom one can engage in homosexual behavior is a sinful behavior. Like the lying, heretical false priest you are, you preach that homosexuality is akin to race or gender or ethnicity. It isn't. It is a compulsion like any other sinful desire, like stealing, smacking idiot false priests, or fornication. It is as if you are saying that what is important is that one be a good thief, not an evil thief. You're an idiot.Another stupid aspect of your inane premise is that it is enough to be a good Muslim. This is something that no Apostle of the Lord would ever say. Only a 21st century psuedo-intellectual would see something like this in the words of Paul. The only way one could be a good homosexual or lesbian is to reject their desires for another of the same sex and trust in Christ for help in overcoming that desire. One cannot be a good sinner of any kind by indulging in the sin. What you present is the message of Feodor and other fools and false priests and Christians. It is NOT the message of Galatians, Collosians or any other of the 66 books of the Bible. Why do you even bother calling yourself a Christian? You are far more interested in following your own way than His way. Stop the charade and just be the foul, self-serving chump you want to be. OR, start understanding that which is clear and come to God on HIS terms for a change.

Marshall,Stupidity in and of itself is merely a condition, a state of mind. But to freely, willingly and eagerly, stubbornly fashion it into a state of mind and engage in stupid behavior is a sin against God and creation.But here you are, losing the laws and opinions, the ethical and religious tenor of your times.You, Erik Prince, the members of C Street.I'll stick with the 200 million others in my country who find trying to control God and people to be a dark, evil strain you wring on an altar lately converted from the Klan.Remember, Marshall, what your brothers in arms would say:Jesus + 0 = X

WOW!Re, ""JESUS. Our world view is JESUS. Clinging to him. Stumbling along with him. Trying our damndest to do what he said to do and live the way he showed us to live. That's IT." Cut the crapxxxMA wrote the above.Consider it cut. Good luck with whatever it is you've miststaken for Christianity in general and faith in Christ specifically.Yeesh. I need a shower. And I encourage you in your desire to leave the UCC.

Feo said,"Stupidity in and of itself is merely a condition, a state of mind. But to freely, willingly and eagerly, stubbornly fashion it into a state of mind and engage in stupid behavior is a sin against God and creation." It's good that you recognize this. Now you must stop doing it."But here you are, losing the laws and opinions, the ethical and religious tenor of your times." What the hell does this mean?"You, Erik Prince, the members of C Street." What the hell does this mean?"I'll stick with the 200 million others in my country who find trying to control God and people to be a dark, evil strain you wring on an altar lately converted from the Klan." So will I. I don't see how that's relevant here, unless you think I'm trying to control Him who I seek to follow. Naw. That would make no sense."Jesus + 0 = X" What the hell does this mean?I've asked that question three times. I really don't mean to seek an explanation. I doubt you're capable of making your own blatherings any more understandable. Your nonsensical comments are tiring and do little to support your opinion of yourself and the education on which your parents wasted so much money.

For ER,"Good luck with whatever it is you've miststaken for Christianity in general and faith in Christ specifically." Someday you'll have to explain where I'm mistaken. Feodor can't do it. I don't see how you can with no reliance on anything more tangible or substantive than some fantasy notion of "Grace". It's funny though, in a pathetic, progressive kinda way, that you won't stick your neck out to preach Biblical teaching to others, but you're so certain that what I do, say and believe is unChristian. Upon what could you possibly base such a position with your lack of regard for Scripture?"Yeesh. I need a shower. And I encourage you in your desire to leave the UCC." I'm sure you do need a shower, but that's totally irrelevant. As for the ucc, I dunno. I've been vacilating and think I'm needed to stand against its heresies. Well-meaning people are being led astray.":-) "Poor Marshall, ranted himself right on the tracks of oncoming scripture… and was flattened like a pancake."I HATE when that happens." Ranted? Hmm. Thought I was just talking. But flattened? Not hardly. Scripture lifts me up because I don't play games with it. It strengthens me because I don't seek loopholes to justify my sinful compulsions. It lightens me by showing me truth that you and Feodor ignore for the sake of worldly things. I feel sorry for the both of you."I'd bet a dollar that I am the only person here with a pair of bib overalls hangin' in the closet." I won't take that bet.

I'm waiting for mom2 to come back with her considered reflections on Galatians and the farewell discourse of Jesus in the Gospel of John.I gave her passages, or part passages, time and some good thought, and I am waiting for her return contribution.

But, Marshall, she promised:"I have some more scriptures for you to read and if we are not to look to the inspired Word of God, then I will refuse to accept just the words of an intellect."So I did what she asked.You don't think she'd lie about something like scripture do you?Surely not. I have faith she'll be back.

"And, boy, you talk a lot for other people. For an honorable, humble Christianistic person, I mean." Two questions:How could this possibly be a problem for you? I mean, aside from interfering with your attempts to run your nonsense by another person, andIs it so hard for you to understand the honor of humbly speaking for a friend in order to spare them the nonsense you're sure to try to run by them?

Another wrong conception on your part Feodor. I only said I was giving you a few scriptures out of many that COULD enlighten you, if you were willing to know the truth. I didn't say I was going to post them. Looks to me like you have plenty of time to look them up, but when you close your eyes every time you see something that does go along with your "theology", it evidently is unprofitable. Surely, you could find some GOOD thing to do with yourself. mom2

mom2,You were right the first time, but now you seem to be unsure about your call to "look to" scripture.We did look to the scriptures you provided and I found a wealth of helpful inspiration.Now are you denying that scripture can inspire?And after following your lead into some very beautiful and "fruitful" passages that you suggested, you don't seem to be willing to involve yourself with Paul on law in Galatians or Jesus in his farewell discourses in John.What's up with this selfish exclusivity.You want to talk about scripture, which you claim is plain and simple, but when we do talk about scripture, you're faced with how we interpret it because it is not that plain and simple.It just seems so because you were never taught, and Marshall defends, the plain and simple Christian mind that serves an eighth grader (like Milk) but does not serve the adult Christian life (like meat).

You think you have Truth wrapped up in gingham.You're not familiar with, because you are scared of, Truth who is a vision of glory, living in heaven and active in our lives.No wonder you piecemeal the Bible. Even it is too big, bold, and generous to face when one is afraid.

And with everything Christ wants to say to us, his first words are always, "Do not be afraid.'But Marshall helps you cover that up and hide it under leather covers, broken into little pieces, and strained through a misguided labeling of others who are the targets of your fears, anxieties, and anger at the way the world changes on you.

"You were right the first time, but now you seem to be unsure about your call to "look to" scripture." The section I emboldened shows Feo's penchant for seeing what does not exist."…you don't seem to be willing to involve yourself with Paul on law in Galatians or Jesus in his farewell discourses in John." Speaking for Mom2, which I've little doubt would offend her, I'd say a more likely scenario is that she is unwilling to suffer your lame interpretations. It ain't like she ain't been reading along."…you're faced with how we interpret it because it is not that plain and simple." It's only complicated for those unwilling to change in order to conform to it's teachings. For those of us who place God's Will and Christ's teachings above all else, it's incredibly easy to understand. Your idea of milk vs meat is as skewed as your idea of a living Christ."You think you have Truth wrapped up in gingham.""You're not familiar with, because you are scared of, Truth who is a vision of glory, living in heaven and active in our lives." You've rejected Truth in favor of wordly desires and created for yourself a false god that justifies your unwillingness to conform to REAL Truth."No wonder you piecemeal the Bible." No one here has done that. It is a given that we expect you to read, study and understand the entire Bible. Because you've demonstrated that you don't understand, because you've studied poorly what little you've read, requires that we break it down for you into smaller, more easily digestable bites. Yet still you choke."Even it is too big, bold, and generous to face when one is afraid." Which is why we break it down for you, to allay your fears of having to truly do the heavy lifting of carrying one's cross, which in your case must be considerable."But Marshall helps you cover that up and hide it under leather covers…" Mom2 is quite capable of understanding God's Truth without my help, as she shows constantly. You purposely ignore and/or distort what lies within those covers pretending that you are abiding some fantasy "living Christ" who speaks only to liberals and homosexuals."and strained through a misguided labeling of others who are the targets of your fears, anxieties, and anger at the way the world changes on you." Any labelling we do is hardly misguided, but instead imposed upon us by those who are self-labeled by their actions. We don't target them, we simply acknowledge where they are going wrong. Any fear or anxiety we feel is for their own souls, and any anger we feel is toward heretics like yourself who would enable those who need more guidance, heretics like you who change with the world rather than holding fast to the eternal and unchanging Truth."It's called faith in the living Christ." A lie if ever there was one. It's called, "changing Christ to conform with the world." Good luck with that. For us, we won't try it, thank you very much. It ain't stepping out, it's stepping in it.

Yeah, I get it. Mine canary. First to die from gas. Your gas, though noxious, is hardly fatal except for yourself and those who breath deeply its heresies.In addition, your use of the term shows your determination to be clever. Good for you. Keep trying and soon, perhaps you'll actually say something clever.