After a couple of slab technique debates recently that arose from photo gallery contributions; this weeks photo gallery picture prompted the following comment from Olbert;>

Point of climbing technique - it looks like you could have used each double to clip one wire without a sling. I'd only really use a sling like that for a single rope.

What do others think?

The photo reproduced here for discussion...

Karl Ostberg on the move into the crux section of Telemachus, 19, Arapiles. Photographer: Martin Jackson

It's probably better to thrash the technique responses out in a dedicated thread, that can be used for similar discussions in future (but photos will be needed to keep it ongoing), rather than clutter the front page with those kind of debates?

On 26/07/2017 One Day Hero wrote:>Maybe he's saving the blue rope to clip those stupid rings 1m left of the>crack.
That ring look quite far from the crack - while they would be tempting to a scared climber; they may be a bit of a red herring - I don't know the climb so can't be sure.

A lot of people just don't understand rope management, let alone double-rope management. I often see people clipping their first piece of protection 3 meters above the ground or a ledge with a sling.when there is no risk of rope drag. They don't seem to realise that the piece has been rendered almost totally useless by doing this. Sure, you don't want your first piece to lift out if climbing off a ledge but mostly that is it better tackled by placing a directional rather than slinging your first piece when you're in prime ankle-busting territory.

It's good to discuss these things, but I think I know what is going in the leader's head and it's pretty sound technique:

It's a long pitch with one dog-leg left after the crux and another back right, higher on the climb. The last thing he wants to do is create rope drag around the first overhang, especially on both ropes (The pieces are clipped on alternate ropes.) So he's gone a short draw on one rope and a longer sling on the other one as a back-up. (I am guessing he's made the assessment this would still keep him off the ground, otherwise there is no point in having it.) Having the long sling allows that rope to be pulled over to the left with less drag when he goes through the first dog-leg. The orange rope will stay on the right.

There are two good reasons for using double ropes; one is to be able to run them up different lines to avoid drag and the other is to give you the capability of clipping one rope while being belayed on the other. If you need to run different lines, you are going to defeat the purpose if you alternate short clips up the same line. If you want to avoid relying solely on one rope by backing up with the other, then you have to use a longer draw on the back-up rope to allow it to hold its line.

On 27/07/2017 One Day Hero wrote:>On 26/07/2017 martym wrote:>>That ring look quite far from the crack - while they would be tempting>>to a scared climber; they may be a bit of a red herring>>Shitty squeeze job which never should have been bolted.

Other than being an eyesore, that particular bolt doesn't really impinge on telemachus. the one above where you diagonal left into electra however is totally accessible. In fact, I've been known to be lazy and rap off it rather than doing the end of electra twice when doing both routes. Not really recommended practice to rap off a single bolt though ...

Regarding the double ropes - i'd have a short draw on both pieces and one rope into each. That is so low down on the route that it will still be a smooth line into the finish of electra and the only way to have perfectly straight lines up the route would be to have one rope for the telemachus bit and the other rope for the electra bit, which would have you effectively climbing on a single 8mm rope for most of the climb, which is also a rather dumb idea. I'd clip the right rope only towards the top of the telemachus bit and the left rope only at the start of the electra bit and maybe extend the first piece in electra for both ropes depending on how the rope line is looking. It's not rocket science. Just keep looking at your ropes so far, where you are going to be climbing, anything you might be at risk of hitting and doing a bit of thinking and planning.

Ova on tha main pic seccy martym scribled;>IT is a weird photo - but for a climbing pic, it's really intriguing. Which hold will he grab? Why did he clip the nuts that way (see M9's thread)? Where the hell is his right leg?

On 27/07/2017 Grinder (who took the photo) wrote:>It's good to discuss these things, but I think I know what is going in>the leader's head and it's pretty sound technique:>>It's a long pitch with one dog-leg left after the crux and another back>right, higher on the climb. The last thing he wants to do is create rope>drag around the first overhang, especially on both ropes (The pieces are>clipped on alternate ropes.) So he's gone a short draw on one rope and>a longer sling on the other one as a back-up. (I am guessing he's made>the assessment this would still keep him off the ground, otherwise there>is no point in having it.) Having the long sling allows that rope to be>pulled over to the left with less drag when he goes through the first dog-leg.>The orange rope will stay on the right.>>There are two good reasons for using double ropes; one is to be able to>run them up different lines to avoid drag and the other is to give you>the capability of clipping one rope while being belayed on the other. If>you need to run different lines, you are going to defeat the purpose if>you alternate short clips up the same line. If you want to avoid relying>solely on one rope by backing up with the other, then you have to use a>longer draw on the back-up rope to allow it to hold its line.>>And yes, the bolts are irrelevant.>>
Hmm.
Although what you say is basically true I think that there is a confusion* here re how best to achieve a particular outcome, when it comes to double rope technique.
(*The bits of your post that I've highlighted seem to be at odds with each other.)

How to do something is often a trade off as there's usually more than one way to do it and even then, the differences sometimes don't matter much!

Even with short clipped ropes, one is effectively backing up the other, and with short clipped ropes there is a minimising of the length of a fall if it occurs.
I usually climb on double ropes and only ever use long slings to keep the line straighter for any particular cord, particularly at changes of line direction and even more so if such direction change involves an overhang.

As soon as you add a long sling into the equation, you have to consider fall length and forces involved (changing angles of loading etc), on the pro that is placed to hold the fall, not to mention snafus like ropes potentially cross-clipping under tension after another direction change up higher on the route.

Keeping a line straighter (as far as rope management goes), also applies to how it runs up the cliff through overhanging territory, as well as laterally along a cliff with rising traverses etc. A long sling can save a rope from damage by preventing it running over sharp stone edges.

As kieranl points out, placing a directional piece (along with the pro piece), is often key to easy rope management in these situations.

On 28-Oct-2017 Goshen wrote:>Colours are enhanced by changing contrast / sharpness / brightness settings>in my photo software only.>The colours really are like that. No other fiddling.>>Got a few other straight on shots which look equally amazing... Not sure>if it's worth uploading those anywhere.>>Oh - and the first 2 pieces were small cams... I was aware of the longer>fall potential with a loop of rope like that; but figured I wouldn't fall>off.

Thanks for the feedback Goshen.
Cams are generally multi-directional for loading, as they often have a degree of ability to rotate without compromising their integrity of placement, and I note from the photo that yours were placed pretty close to each other so effectively they back up one another, making your protection situation relatively ok.

I was initially concerned somewhat re the distance belayer is from rock-face and no Jesus-piece for upward loading between him and your first pro, along with an ugly ledge to land on(!), as I've seen gear strip from below under rope tension on a number of occasions leaving only a ground-fall outcome in the event of a fall...