Maybe I'm a little late with my complaints and maybe it isn't as bad as I think, but are tanks (Paladins especially) getting totally hosed in 5.4?

I just started a prot pally recently and he is only level 71 so I don't know how the changes will translate at 90 but after reading the patch notes I think rolling a tank was a bad idea. These are from the PTR patch notes:

All tanks:
•Vengeance now grants Attack Power equal to 1.5% of the damage taken, down from 1.8% (The tooltip said 2% but it was actually 1.8%). (nerf)
•Tanks no longer receive Vengeance from many persistent area damage effects (standing in the fire) or from missed attacks (dodging and parrying an attack will continue to work as it has before). (nerf)
•Vengeance gains from being critically hit have been reduced by 50%. (nerf)
•There are now diminishing returns on Vengeance gains while tanking multiple targets. Each additional target grants progressively less Vengeance. (nerf)Are tanks really doing too much damage? Yes, leveling up I have been far and away the top dps in my LFD groups but this won't last at 90, will it?

A few things that need to be corrected:

-Vengeance was far too high and needed a nerf.

-The vengeance from aoe dmg on the ground is actually a buff with the way vengeance works. So, no, not a nerf.

Those two in conjuction with each other might be too much though. That's what I fear at least (and no - I'm not talking about the damage part - I'm talking about how our survivability scales with vengeance).

-Vengeance from crits? You don't get crit. Not relevant.

You do if you do a /sit which some tanks did. It could be a noticeable dps increase on some fights. Glad it's gone though.

-The vengeance from aoe dmg on the ground is actually a buff with the way vengeance works. So, no, not a nerf.

It's a buff because if you get hit for a large amount one time in 20s, you'll stay at that vengeance for the full 20s. If you stand in dmg that keeps updating the buff, it rolls like ignite and will slowly tick down over the 20s.

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Originally Posted by Welsh

Maybe I'm a little late with my complaints and maybe it isn't as bad as I think, but are tanks (Paladins especially) getting totally hosed in 5.4?

I just started a prot pally recently and he is only level 71 so I don't know how the changes will translate at 90 but after reading the patch notes I think rolling a tank was a bad idea. These are from the PTR patch notes:

All tanks:
•Vengeance now grants Attack Power equal to 1.5% of the damage taken, down from 1.8% (The tooltip said 2% but it was actually 1.8%). (nerf)
•Tanks no longer receive Vengeance from many persistent area damage effects (standing in the fire) or from missed attacks (dodging and parrying an attack will continue to work as it has before). (nerf)
•Vengeance gains from being critically hit have been reduced by 50%. (nerf)
•There are now diminishing returns on Vengeance gains while tanking multiple targets. Each additional target grants progressively less Vengeance. (nerf)Are tanks really doing too much damage? Yes, leveling up I have been far and away the top dps in my LFD groups but this won't last at 90, will it?

Paladin:
•Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks. (nerf)
•Protection: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective. (major nerf)
•Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to no longer heal the Paladin. Instead, a nearby raid or party member will receive healing for 30% of the amount the Paladin would have received from Seal of Insight. (just ouch)
•Glyph of the Alabaster Shield now increases damage for the next Shield of the Righteous by 10% per stack (down from 20% per stack). (nerf)

I'm thinking I need to switch from Sacred Shield to Eternal Flame. Yes?

One buff I see is: •Characters in a tanking specialization now generates 40% more threat. However maintaining threat doesn't seem to be an issue at all. Again, I'm only 71 on my pally (main is a shaman healer, who is getting mucho buffed)

Personally I don't understand the nerfs. On my server tanks are hard to come by, shouldn't Blizzard be encouraging people to play tanks? I don't see how nerfing them is good for anyone. Are pallies just OP right now? My question is, was rolling a tank a bad idea? Are the changes as bad as I think they are? Am I overreacting?

No OP, but they are disallowing them to do stupid things for vengence, like stand in fire and sit to be autocrit for vengence, b/c that is what we call 'cheesing', and is not 'compelling gameplay'. I happen to agree, sitting to be crit for vengence is not a part of 'rotation' I want to have to work into a macro or do at all. It's silly it got this far in the first place.

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You will be fine. Paladins have been OP this whole patch and were not nerfed because Blizz didn't want to do anything major mid patch. Paladins are the only tanks that could solo tank numerous bosses, have top DPS and top Heals all at the same time. You will actually match up to other tanks next patch. Don't cry wolf until you have had the chance to try it.

It depends on what fire on the ground it is. Vengeance calculations become weird if you have high vengeance and stand in a weak AE, for example crashing thunder on LS. Try standing in it and watch your vengeance drop to the ground. It has to do with how vengeance is calculated, in short Big vengeance + Small AoE = Small vengeance

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Originally Posted by Tricksterjim

You will be fine. Paladins have been OP this whole patch and were not nerfed because Blizz didn't want to do anything major mid patch. Paladins are the only tanks that could solo tank numerous bosses, have top DPS and top Heals all at the same time. You will actually match up to other tanks next patch. Don't cry wolf until you have had the chance to try it.

Yeah, it is not like monk is top dps and heal on every fight.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

So really, people are making a mountain out of an ant hill here. Vengeance is being nerfed yes, from a 2.0 to a 1.8 to a 1.5%. Damage in the new raid once geared will be what it is in TOT now. We will still do good numbers, but scaling wise we won't change much. All the other changes are giving us more room to change some talents per fights. Right now from what I've ready its Paladin -> Warrior -> Monk -> DK -> Druid.

Also to tank we aren't required to use Seal of Insight to keep our mana, we can use Seal of righteousness and Corruption. Still ideal to use seal of insight for the healing but now we can pad meters even more with out worrying about going oom because we have to much haste or something.

Yes Eternal flame is ranked higher then SS but what is the big deal? Works out the same in the end.

historically tanks were never super DPS, so we get knocked down a peg, threat wont be an issue, Damage will still be good, Damage reduced will remain the same.

Maybe healing, which is SELF healing(Bloodworms overheal 99% of the time), but nowhere near top DPS. Paladins have the most raid healing, then Monks.

take a look at world of logs. I'm talking damage here.

Originally Posted by Veritias

So really, people are making a mountain out of an ant hill here. Vengeance is being nerfed yes, from a 2.0 to a 1.8 to a 1.5%.

Was never actually 2.0 but still - 1.8>1.5 is a 16,67 % nerf that's something. Most of us aren't worried about singletarget though. We're worried about add-fights where we got a really big nerf. From my limited testing on PTR on Galakrond it felt like even if you took damage that would have given you a vengeance boost in the 200ks you're not even breaking 100k - but you're still taking that kind of damage, without the added survival the vengeance would've granted you (it's not the damage I'm worried about, it's the surviving part).

Was never actually 2.0 but still - 1.8>1.5 is a 16,67 % nerf that's something. Most of us aren't worried about singletarget though. We're worried about add-fights where we got a really big nerf. From my limited testing on PTR on Galakrond it felt like even if you took damage that would have given you a vengeance boost in the 200ks you're not even breaking 100k - but you're still taking that kind of damage, without the added survival the vengeance would've granted you (it's not the damage I'm worried about, it's the surviving part).

I wouldn't worry to much, I mean yea SS doesn't get the bonus but between SOTR and a rolling EF I think it will be fine overall. They didn't like tanks breaking 1m DPS on multiple adds. Just need to play smarter is all.

I mean I've been playing a Prot paladin since they became something special in Hyjal, so through all the changes I really like the way we currently are but things always change.

Do you mean on the PTR? Because on live that's certainly not the case. Tank dps is, at this point, surprisingly well ordered and consistent from fight to fight with exceptions like Monks dropping to distant last on Heroic Tortos. For a while Paladins were winning the fights where we could immune out of tank swap mechanics (Iron Qon, Durumu and Horridon particularly) but now that lots and lots of guilds have single tanked these fights with non-paladin tanks the overall order of things has reasserted itself.

Looking at tank median (and mean, they're about the same) dps, the order goes:

Monk > Bear > DK > Warrior

This holds true across virtually all fights with all raid sizes and on all difficulty levels. Monks win virtually every non-Tortos fight at every level and Warriors lose every non-Tortos fight at every level. I'd like to say that both of them absolutely are at the top and bottom for every single fight everywhere but its possible Warriors sneak into 4th on LFR Dark Animus or something so I won't.

Similarly, there are probably a few fights somewhere in which DKs catch Bears but for the vast, vast majority they slot nicely into order. The difficulty and size does affect the spacing a bit. On 10N, its a really nice, orderly spacing with the classes almost the exact same distance apart, while on 25H DKs and Warriors are pretty close together down at the bottom and the gap between Monks and Bears is a little bigger than on 10N.

The one thing that noticeably changes between 10N and 25H is the missing class, Paladins. Unlike everyone else, Paladin dps shifts significantly.

On 10N, Paladins are in an almost perfect tie with DKs. The results are startlingly close overall with some modest variation between fights. I believe the classes trade off 3rd and 4th place finishes 6 and 6, and both the Mean and Median dps levels are extremely close overall across the tier. On 25H, however, Paladins step it up to a near-tie with Bears. Its not quite the photo-finish Paladins have with DKs in 10N and I'd give a slight edge to Bears overall, but overall the two classes are pretty close.

Why Paladins shift up I couldn't tell you exactly, but I strongly suspect Paladins scale better with Vengeance than other tanks. I also suspect that in 5.4 Paladins will continue to hold our own in 25H but at difficulty levels below that we'll probably sink to the bottom. Which is fine, someone has to be last, and we won't be getting crushed brutally on the meters like Warriors have been. I think tank dps overall will be much closer together in 5.4 than it has been previously. Monks are coming down more than we are.

Do you mean on the PTR? Because on live that's certainly not the case. Tank dps is, at this point, surprisingly well ordered and consistent from fight to fight with exceptions like Monks dropping to distant last on Heroic Tortos. For a while Paladins were winning the fights where we could immune out of tank swap mechanics (Iron Qon, Durumu and Horridon particularly) but now that lots and lots of guilds have single tanked these fights with non-paladin tanks the overall order of things has reasserted itself.

Live certainly. But I'm not talking medians I'm talking the top rankings (after all those are the people abusing the vengeance etc). The reason monks drop to a distant last and why medians isn't a good measure for a fight like Tortos, is obviously the kiting strategy. Most monks (at least for the first many months of this patch) kited on tortos and alas did pretty close to no damage at all. (At least so I would think).

Why Paladins shift up I couldn't tell you exactly, but I strongly suspect Paladins scale better with Vengeance than other tanks. I also suspect that in 5.4 Paladins will continue to hold our own in 25H but at difficulty levels below that we'll probably sink to the bottom. Which is fine, someone has to be last, and we won't be getting crushed brutally on the meters like Warriors have been. I think tank dps overall will be much closer together in 5.4 than it has been previously. Monks are coming down more than we are.

That would pretty much be the reason yeah. Without vengeance I do barely any damage. For comparison it took me 3 times as long to complete the isle of thunder unlock scenarios on my paladin alt as it did my brewmaster (and they even scale very well with vengeance too).

I suspect it might have something to do with how poorly we scale with weapon damage compared to other classes.

Maybe healing, which is SELF healing(Bloodworms overheal 99% of the time).

On fights where Blood Worms work (pretty much every boss with a small/medium hitbox) they're actually fairly strong for raid heal and can compete with monk/pally hps.

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Originally Posted by Wrathblood

Monks win virtually every non-Tortos fight at every level and Warriors lose every non-Tortos fight at every level.

Not exactly true. Monks are fairly high up there on Tortos if you look at top 100 fights (you know like the monks that aren't abused for kiting) rather than average dps - even on 70 percentile they're above warriors °_°

Live certainly. But I'm not talking medians I'm talking the top rankings (after all those are the people abusing the vengeance etc). The reason monks drop to a distant last and why medians isn't a good measure for a fight like Tortos, is obviously the kiting strategy. Most monks (at least for the first many months of this patch) kited on tortos and alas did pretty close to no damage at all. (At least so I would think).

Oh, sure, I get that. DKs are one of the tank classes better able to trade survivability for dps (well, AoE dps, at least). Even so, on 25H looking at 99th percentile they manage to come in 2nd on a whopping 3 fights.

As for Vengeance scaling, I tank with a Monk. Obviously we let him pull most of the time so I get plenty of time to parse my zero Vengeance dps. In ilevel ~540 gear it takes me about 6 seconds to full ramp up to my full ~35k dps. I'm typically below the Disc Priest until I get to tank for a while. It just goes without saying that I need to Salv the Monk every time on our first swap.

It just goes without saying that I need to Salv the Monk every time on our first swap.

Even when you do that, Xuen keeps tanking Then you BoP him and even THAT won't put an end to his troll-tiger.

More seriously though, I also co-tank with a monk, and aside from JinRohk (between tosses and tank swapping with no V), I have no problems holding threat. In fact, I actually need to salv myself a few times a raid during swaps. But, granted, that's AFTER we have high-V levels, which I'm sure has more to do with it than skill

On a semi-related note, I'm debating shelving my DK back even further in favor of my long-neglected, ex-main Prot Warrior after seeing the bonuses and scaling they've got coming up next tier. Not sure how strong they're looking in terms of DPS vs a ProtPal, but I'm still expecting Monk > Bear > Prots = DK in terms of DPS next tier. Does that sound about right?

Originally Posted by Malthanis

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Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

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Even when you do that, Xuen keeps tanking Then you BoP him and even THAT won't put an end to his troll-tiger.

More seriously though, I also co-tank with a monk, and aside from JinRohk (between tosses and tank swapping with no V), I have no problems holding threat. In fact, I actually need to salv myself a few times a raid during swaps. But, granted, that's AFTER we have high-V levels, which I'm sure has more to do with it than skill

On a semi-related note, I'm debating shelving my DK back even further in favor of my long-neglected, ex-main Prot Warrior after seeing the bonuses and scaling they've got coming up next tier. Not sure how strong they're looking in terms of DPS vs a ProtPal, but I'm still expecting Monk > Bear > Prots = DK in terms of DPS next tier. Does that sound about right?

Every time I tanked with a BRM this tier, I take aggro all the time, need to spam salvs and salyin banners to reduce the threat. I dont think I have ever lost threat on a tank swap this expansion to be honest, but never played with any tank that pushes insane threat so. The closest I came to a high damage cotank was a druid that managed to rank 10-100 on most fights, but he was after all, a druid, so not issue holding threat there anyways.

For SoO, I think it needs to differentiateted between survivability and throughput. I expect Monk>Bear>Prots>DK in terms on survivability.
For throughput I think it is a little fuzzier, Monk first with DKs last I would figure, but the middle three is all up for grabs imo, I have a feeling that it is gonna be Monk>War>Druid>Pala>DK, but that could be wrong.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

On a semi-related note, I'm debating shelving my DK back even further in favor of my long-neglected, ex-main Prot Warrior after seeing the bonuses and scaling they've got coming up next tier. Not sure how strong they're looking in terms of DPS vs a ProtPal, but I'm still expecting Monk > Bear > Prots = DK in terms of DPS next tier. Does that sound about right?

Sounds right to me, but of course keep in mind my usual situation. I wish we'd get like a raw damage buff to our abilities so we could do DPS without needing Vengeance. At least the fights in SoO are looking to not be solo tankable (in most cases anyways) so there won't be any fights where I just kind of sit there either taunting right before debuffs hit for the bear or twiddling my thumbs doing bad DPS because I'm not needed for most of the fight (e.g. Twins)

Kind of disappointed about the staticity of raid encounters by the looks of it. Only thing in flux is healer variation based on preference, and even that is pretty rigid. I liked that t15 had a plethora of 1 vs 2 tank, and 2 vs 3 heal encounters.

I know we're still supposed to be top tier/top2 tanks, but just feeling a bit bored while offtanking. Hence the thought about swapping to Warrior, since we have no banners/shouts in our group.

I get that they don't want people to get benched for another DPS due to 1-tank fights (even though most tanks carry a DPS offspec), but how is having one tank stay in the fight, semi-afk as you described, in any way enjoyable? Catch 22 I suppose, but I wish they'd give at least interesting jobs to the "offtank" without making it a boring/tedious swap mechanic.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

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