No "Pet The Dog" on 2HBH?

Just looking at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QjS9Abwk2E and notice that the Big 4 and more don't apply PTD to their BH like they do on their FH. It's just odd to me since you hear so much about the 2HBH being a opposite handed FH with a guide. I never really bought into that, but I also have a weird BH myself (western 2HBH http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandbackhand/ss/bh2gripclosewt_3.htm). Right now I'm holding the racquet in a right hander's continental(R)/eastern(L) and also a continental(R)/semiwestern(L) grip and am able to PTD on both (easier on the continental(R)/semiwestern(L)), so I'm guessing that the right hand (for righties) messes this up mechanically in a full playing stroke somehow...?

Just looking at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QjS9Abwk2E and notice that the Big 4 and more don't apply PTD to their BH like they do on their FH. It's just odd to me since you hear so much about the 2HBH being a opposite handed FH with a guide. I never really bought into that, but I also have a weird BH myself (western 2HBH http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandbackhand/ss/bh2gripclosewt_3.htm). Right now I'm holding the racquet in a right hander's continental(R)/eastern(L) and also a continental(R)/semiwestern(L) grip and am able to PTD on both (easier on the continental(R)/semiwestern(L)), so I'm guessing that the right hand (for righties) messes this up mechanically in a full playing stroke somehow...?

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You have to define PTD
Otherwise any conversation is useless.
I have seen that before

ptd= "pat the dog", which means you turn and reach your palm downward. This is common in a forehand when players stick their elbow back, which turns the palm down on the backswing.

The OP wanted to know why this doesn't happen on the 2hbh. I speculated that it's because having the right hand on the racket prevents the player from pulling his left arm back far enough to do a true "pat the dog." (Arguably, the ptd does take place, but just later, in the forward swing).

As for the "left-handed forehand" analogy, it breaks down when you consider that on the closed-stance 2hbh the weight transfer takes place very early, usually during or before the racket drop. Whereas, on the modern forehand the weight shift usually comes later, if at all (depends a lot on the stance used).

Arguably, the ptd does take place, but just later, in the forward swing.

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Is there a video (or a player specifically) where you can see it happening at all? Even though my search has not been extensive I have seen nothing but perpendicular racquet faces to the court through each entire swing, with slight racquet closing only at contact

Is there a video (or a player specifically) where you can see it happening at all? Even though my search has not been extensive I have seen nothing but perpendicular racquet faces to the court through each entire swing, with slight racquet closing only at contact

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I see some closing of the racket face at the start of the forward swing, but completely closed, no.

Most players get the closed face on the fh from sticking their elbows back. This just can't be done comfortably with the other hand on the racket.

I also question its usefulness, seeing how the bottom hand will be assisting in pulling the racket forward.

ptd= "pat the dog", which means you turn and reach your palm downward. This is common in a forehand when players stick their elbow back, which turns the palm down on the backswing.

The OP wanted to know why this doesn't happen on the 2hbh. I speculated that it's because having the right hand on the racket prevents the player from pulling his left arm back far enough to do a true "pat the dog." (Arguably, the ptd does take place, but just later, in the forward swing).

As for the "left-handed forehand" analogy, it breaks down when you consider that on the closed-stance 2hbh the weight transfer takes place very early, usually during or before the racket drop. Whereas, on the modern forehand the weight shift usually comes later, if at all (depends a lot on the stance used).

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pat the dog has nothing to do with the backswing, it is the Motion at contact (pronation). there are some Players who Close the racket face at the backswing and they still are not patting the dog. the left wrist is inhiting the range of the right wrist.

Is there a video (or a player specifically) where you can see it happening at all? Even though my search has not been extensive I have seen nothing but perpendicular racquet faces to the court through each entire swing, with slight racquet closing only at contact

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Michael Chang would close the face of his racquet during the backswing. His wrists would be bent back and a little down before his forward stroke.

pat the dog has nothing to do with the backswing, it is the Motion at contact (pronation). there are some Players who Close the racket face at the backswing and they still are not patting the dog. the left wrist is inhiting the range of the right wrist.

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Actually, in most instruction, "pat-the-dog" is not a description of a movement at contact, but instead a description of turning the racket face toward the ground during the transition from the backswing to the forward swing. Instructors will say things like, at the end of your backswing "pat-the-dog" and demonstrate this motion - pressing the racket face down toward the court as if you were giving a pat on the back of a large dog.

SpeedMaster in his blog associates it with "elbow pronation" at the end of the backswing.

A lot of the other players have a racket that is slightly open at the start of the forward swing.

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Be careful about drawing conclusions from Nadal's bh. Unlike the vast majority of players, his front arm stays mostly straight from the backswing through the forward swing, and it seems like he's really using that arm to pull the racket through.

Actually, in most instruction, "pat-the-dog" is not a description of a movement at contact, but instead a description of turning the racket face toward the ground during the transition from the backswing to the forward swing. Instructors will say things like, at the end of your backswing "pat-the-dog" and demonstrate this motion - pressing the racket face down toward the court as if you were giving a pat on the back of a large dog.

SpeedMaster in his blog associates it with "elbow pronation" at the end of the backswing.

I think the reason Nadal/Gulbis have the pat the dog on the backhand is because they have a more extreme grip on their bottom hand, not because they're pronating their left arm so much more than other players.

Be careful about drawing conclusions from Nadal's bh. Unlike the vast majority of players, his front arm stays mostly straight from the backswing through the forward swing, and it seems like he's really using that arm to pull the racket through.

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I'm not sure I'm drawing a conclusion other than to say they seem to have almost a "pat-the-dog" type movement in that they close the racket face at the start of the swing. One of the reasons to do this is that it helps from having the racket face open too early into contact and send the ball long. I'm not at all certain if it creates a stretch reflex when hitting the bh as it might do in the fh. However, I've been influenced by both players when working on my own 2hbh.

Pat the dog is where the racket head lags behind the arm and the racket face points towards the ground.

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No, Pat the dog is a backswing position which is mostly a result of pronation in the backswing which closes the racquet face (to lesser or greater degree). If you want a Fed like prototype, this postion is achieved BEFORE the racquet is pulled/flipped. The pictures you are displaying are after the pull, which is where the arm is supinating and racquet face is opening more.

On a two handed backhand, the most popular grip style is to use a semiwestern or eastern grip with your left hand and a continental with your right hand, for righties. For lefties, it's the opposite.

When your hands are in this configuration, the racket face will be closed somewhat in the backswing, but with two hand both gripping the racket, you won't have quiet the freedom of movement that you have with one hand on the forehand side.

For righties, if you take your right hand off the handle and prepare like it's a left handed forehand, you can get into a position where the racket face is a little more closed. With both hands gripping the handle it will feel similar to a lefthanded forehand, but you won't have quite the same freedom of movement.

Beveldevil, you think Nadal's backhand is left-hand (front arm) dominant? That would be quite strange since he's supposedly naturally right handed, so I'd have thought he'd use the opportunity to hit as much of a 'right-handed forehand' as possible?

...we can see that Nadal and Almagro are the only ones using a wind-shield wiper-style swing path on their backhands. The video shows that beautifully. Gasquet and Dimitrov will also often use a WW finish, but didn't in the clips shown in the video.

Nadal and Gulbis are often said to be the 2hbh's that hit the most topspin. Nadal and Gulbis both 'pat-the-dog' on the backswing, but only Nadal uses the WW follow-through. So how can Gulbis rival Nadal's topspin on the 2hbh, if he doesn't use a WW finish?

And how does 'patting the dog' generally increase topspin production anyway, in either the forehand or backhand?

Beveldevil, you think Nadal's backhand is left-hand (front arm) dominant? That would be quite strange since he's supposedly naturally right handed, so I'd have thought he'd use the opportunity to hit as much of a 'right-handed forehand' as possible?

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Not just me, but video analyst/coach John Yandell said the same thing.

I have no idea why he does it that way, but I have a couple of guesses:

- Uncle Toni didn't really know what he was doing, and taught Nadal the "wrong" way.
- Nadal started out as a righty with a 2-handed forehand, which uses a lot of front arm. This was then converted to a 2hbh.
- Nadal learned how to use his left so well it translated to his backhand.

Btw, Andre Agassi also hit with a straight front arm and he himself said his stroke was more of a 1hbh with support.

I think the reason Nadal/Gulbis have the pat the dog on the backhand is because they have a more extreme grip on their bottom hand, not because they're pronating their left arm so much more than other players.

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Interesting point. In the Western 2HBH my left hand holds the grip like a semiwestern FH, so PTD should be more natural than it would be for an eastern FH grip. I'm not seeing it a whole lot on my backhands, but then again I am now trying to make PTD more of a habit on my forehand. I guess PTD is just a step I missed when first learning tennis

pat the dog has nothing to do with the backswing, it is the Motion at contact (pronation). there are some Players who Close the racket face at the backswing and they still are not patting the dog. the left wrist is inhiting the range of the right wrist.

Just looking at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QjS9Abwk2E and notice that the Big 4 and more don't apply PTD to their BH like they do on their FH. It's just odd to me since you hear so much about the 2HBH being a opposite handed FH with a guide. I never really bought into that, but I also have a weird BH myself (western 2HBH http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandbackhand/ss/bh2gripclosewt_3.htm). Right now I'm holding the racquet in a right hander's continental(R)/eastern(L) and also a continental(R)/semiwestern(L) grip and am able to PTD on both (easier on the continental(R)/semiwestern(L)), so I'm guessing that the right hand (for righties) messes this up mechanically in a full playing stroke somehow...?

ptd= "pat the dog", which means you turn and reach your palm downward. This is common in a forehand when players stick their elbow back, which turns the palm down on the backswing.

The OP wanted to know why this doesn't happen on the 2hbh. I speculated that it's because having the right hand on the racket prevents the player from pulling his left arm back far enough to do a true "pat the dog." (Arguably, the ptd does take place, but just later, in the forward swing).

As for the "left-handed forehand" analogy, it breaks down when you consider that on the closed-stance 2hbh the weight transfer takes place very early, usually during or before the racket drop. Whereas, on the modern forehand the weight shift usually comes later, if at all (depends a lot on the stance used).

It is NOT a great definition because it does NOT say whether we are talking ONLY about a backswing part or NOT

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It would help then if you'd tell us what you are talking about.

"Pat-the-dog" as it has been traditionally used on these boards (meaning for years of discussion, probably at least 5-years) is Bungalo Bill's description. It is the move after the unit turn in which the player presses out at the end of the backswing and thereby closes the racket face to the court during the transition phase at the start of the movement. So in other words, "pat-the-dog" as though you are turning your palm down and extending your arm to pat a large dog on the head is different than the standard WTA-type stroke in which you allow the racket head to lag back behind the shoulders.

I wasn't aware that it was also being used as a term for closing the racket after/or at contact.

"Pat-the-dog" as it has been traditionally used on these boards (meaning for years of discussion, probably at least 5-years) is Bungalo Bill's description. It is the move after the unit turn in which the player presses out at the end of the backswing and thereby closes the racket face to the court during the transition phase at the start of the movement. So in other words, "pat-the-dog" as though you are turning your palm down and extending your arm to pat a large dog on the head is different than the standard WTA-type stroke in which you allow the racket head to lag back behind the shoulders.

I wasn't aware that it was also being used as a term for closing the racket after/or at contact.

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1.There is a definition #1:
---->
"Pat the dog is a backswing position which is mostly a result of pronation in the backswing which closes the racquet face (to lesser or greater degree). " by CHICO 9166

2.It is taken literally from post#21

3.There is a variation of defintion#1
If you pronate in the backswing then you pat a dog

4.OP created problems by himself/herself by phrasing HIS/HER POST as follows:
"notice that the Big 4 and more don't apply PTD to their BH like they do on their FH. It's just odd to me since you hear so much about the 2HBH being a opposite handed FH with a guide. I never really bought into that"

It is a classic example of making statements about the property X WITHOUT defining the property X

5.It is generally believed that Djokovic follows BOTH defintion #1 and the variation of the definition #1
in the case of HIS BACKHAND.Please see the FIRST LINK of my post #28
So I disagree with OP that "Djokovic DOES NOT pat the dog"

6.The same applies for Nadal in the case of HIS BACKHAND

7.Limiting the discussion to the CLOSED or NEUTRAL STANCE is possible but a mistake IMHO in the case of
BACKHAND.

8.There is disagreement between coaches which WTA players "pat the dog" and "which do NOT"
The banner examples are Kuznetsova,Stosur and Li NA

9.I went through a similar pain at tennisplayer.net
Regards,
Julian W.Miellniczuk

1.There is a definition #1:
---->
"Pat the dog is a backswing position which is mostly a result of pronation in the backswing which closes the racquet face (to lesser or greater degree). " by CHICO 9166

2.It is taken literally from post#21

3.There is a variation of defintion#1
If you pronate in the backswing then you pat a dog

4.OP created problems by himself/herself by phrasing HIS/HER POST as follows:
"notice that the Big 4 and more don't apply PTD to their BH like they do on their FH. It's just odd to me since you hear so much about the 2HBH being a opposite handed FH with a guide. I never really bought into that"

It is a classic example of making statements about the property X WITHOUT defining the property X

5.It is generally believed that Djokovic follows BOTH defintion #1 and the variation of the definition #1
in the case of HIS BACKHAND.Please see the FIRST LINK of my post #28
So I disagree with OP that "Djokovic DOES NOT pat the dog"

6.The same applies for Nadal in the case of HIS BACKHAND

7.Limiting the discussion to the CLOSED or NEUTRAL STANCE is possible but a mistake IMHO in the case of
BACKHAND.

8.There is disagreement between coaches which WTA players "pat the dog" and "which do NOT"
The banner examples are Kuznetsova,Stosur and Li NA

9.I went through a similar pain at tennisplayer.net
Regards,
Julian W.Miellniczuk

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The only hesitation I have in the definition is to what extent we say that the racket face being closed to the court is due to pronation. It seems from my experience that the closing of the racket face is due to a combination of forearm pronation/internal shoulder rotation/and elbow extension. The "pat-the-dog" motion is the motion that combines all of these and closes the face to the court, during the transition phase.

Just so you know, by my definition, Stosur definitely "pats-the-dog," the video evidence isn't refutable. I'm not familiar enough with Kuznetsova (even though I've seen her play in person) and Li Na to be certain.

I'll watch the videos you've linked of Djok hitting backhands. I do see some closing of the racket face, so he may have some of that same motion.

The only hesitation I have in the definition is to what extent we say that the racket face being closed to the court is due to pronation. It seems from my experience that the closing of the racket face is due to a combination of forearm pronation/internal shoulder rotation/and elbow extension. The "pat-the-dog" motion is the motion that combines all of these and closes the face to the court, during the transition phase.

Just so you know, by my definition, Stosur definitely "pats-the-dog," the video evidence isn't refutable. I'm not familiar enough with Kuznetsova (even though I've seen her play in person) and Li Na to be certain.

I'll watch the videos you've linked of Djok hitting backhands. I do see some closing of the racket face, so he may have some of that same motion.

Thanks for explaining your position more fully.

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The angle of 30 degrees is often quoted at THE HIGHEST POINT of the backswing.

The only hesitation I have in the definition is to what extent we say that the racket face being closed to the court is due to pronation. It seems from my experience that the closing of the racket face is due to a combination of forearm pronation/internal shoulder rotation/and elbow extension. The "pat-the-dog" motion is the motion that combines all of these and closes the face to the court, during the transition phase.

Just so you know, by my definition, Stosur definitely "pats-the-dog," the video evidence isn't refutable. I'm not familiar enough with Kuznetsova (even though I've seen her play in person) and Li Na to be certain.

I'll watch the videos you've linked of Djok hitting backhands. I do see some closing of the racket face, so he may have some of that same motion.

I saw the Wozniacki video and I see a little bit of "pat-the-dog" movement at the end of her swing. So, Wozniacki does do a variant of the "pat-the-dog" on her 2hbh.

With Djokovic, it seems that he locks the closed racket face in early in his backswing and has only a very slight "pat-the-dog" elbow extension as he transitions to the forward movement. It looks different from a fh because he has more of a straight-back c takeback than a loop.

Watching Kuznetsova, it is harder to tell how much of a "pat-the-dog' motion she has on her fh.

So my provisional conclusion is that the "pat-the-dog" motion is not completely absent among a lot of the top 2hbhs, but it is much less pronounced than you normally see on fhs. The closed racket face position is being locked in early in the swing and there's not the obvious pressing out or down into the transition that you see with Federer and Nadal on fhs.

If anyone is actively trying to do this move, it is done wrong. The same as a stroke finish, it is a result of proper technique. So yes, pros do "pat the dog" but they don't think about it.

I did not even realize I did it until I saw myself on film.

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I have to disagree with pronouncements of this type.

As a player my form has changed a lot over the years, and isn't necessarily consistent day-to-day. Even with world-class players like Nadal, there are obvious form differences from year-to-year.

How much of this is completely subconscious versus the result of conscious practice is a debatable proposition. For instance, I have been consciously emulating parts of stroke mechanics of both Federer and Berdych: the "pat-the-dog" motion being part of it. If I didn't consciously shorten my backswing and pat-the-dog, my stroke would tend to be a huge WTA-style take back. But after thousands of repetitions, I now hit more like an ATP takeback stroke without conscious thought.

What is the result of conscious training today can end up being a thoughtless subconscious reaction tomorrow. So don't be quick to disparage the idea of actually trying to do something when learning.

Here's a good video that shows the "pat-the-dog" transition among top ATP players on the forehand. Watch the transition between the backswing and forward swing. The distinctive thing about the ATP stroke is the shorter backswing (in comparison to the women) with a loop and arm extension (what SpeedMaster on his blog calls "elbow pronation") that closes the face to the court during the transition from backswing to forwardswing.

I think Julian's video links show that something similar is happening on some famous backhands, but it is not as pronounced because there is less of a loop backswing on most men's bhs and the racket face position and hitting arm structure is getting locked in early. It is an open question whether trying to loop the backhand more like a fh would provide some sort of advantage.

WildVolley.
your quote
---->
With Djokovic, it seems that he locks the closed racket face in early in his backswing and has only a very slight "pat-the-dog" elbow extension as he transitions to the forward movement.
----->
I think it is the most modern change
I believe Nadal does the same thing.
Please note that the ORTHODOX teaching does NOT teach that.

PS I have tried to start a similar discussion at the Forum of tennisplayer.net
I will let you know about results
I appreciate your feedback
Regards,
Julian W.Mielniczuk

I saw the Wozniacki video and I see a little bit of "pat-the-dog" movement at the end of her swing. So, Wozniacki does do a variant of the "pat-the-dog" on her 2hbh.

With Djokovic, it seems that he locks the closed racket face in early in his backswing and has only a very slight "pat-the-dog" elbow extension as he transitions to the forward movement. It looks different from a fh because he has more of a straight-back c takeback than a loop.

Watching Kuznetsova, it is harder to tell how much of a "pat-the-dog' motion she has on her fh.

So my provisional conclusion is that the "pat-the-dog" motion is not completely absent among a lot of the top 2hbhs, but it is much less pronounced than you normally see on fhs. The closed racket face position is being locked in early in the swing and there's not the obvious pressing out or down into the transition that you see with Federer and Nadal on fhs.

5.extreme backhand grip or eastern backhand grip for the RIGHT HAND (for righty)

Questions:do we teach all 5 "systems" above?
what is an angle of a face of a racket JUST BEFORE the contact?
I will provide some comments below:
1.Case #5 above is rare,I believe
2.I have to study Heath Waters a bit more

As a player my form has changed a lot over the years, and isn't necessarily consistent day-to-day. Even with world-class players like Nadal, there are obvious form differences from year-to-year.

How much of this is completely subconscious versus the result of conscious practice is a debatable proposition. For instance, I have been consciously emulating parts of stroke mechanics of both Federer and Berdych: the "pat-the-dog" motion being part of it. If I didn't consciously shorten my backswing and pat-the-dog, my stroke would tend to be a huge WTA-style take back. But after thousands of repetitions, I now hit more like an ATP takeback stroke without conscious thought.

What is the result of conscious training today can end up being a thoughtless subconscious reaction tomorrow. So don't be quick to disparage the idea of actually trying to do something when learning.

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I'd rather hit with a loose arm and let proper footwork and prep handle the rest, but do your thing.

Funny ding....
Today, just before playing a couple of sets of doubles, OK 4, was hitting a wall with 2hbh, 1hbh loop takeback, and 1hbh like McEnroe.
Made no difference! All sucked equally, and all could hit maybe 4-7 repeatables.
All ended when I was too lazy to continue trying.