Has Religion Done More Harm Than Good?

Perhaps it’s always been trendy among a certain demographic of people to condemn religion for its violence and to claim that more harm has been done in its service than in anything else. Many people have expressed this sentiment to me in the last several months, in the wake of murders, attacks and suicide bombings – both here and abroad – done in the name of religion. They shake their heads and bemoan the tenacious saliency of religion in today’s modern world, and its inherent violence, concluding – at least as far as I can tell – that if we were somehow able to abolish religion, then we’d have no or very little violence in the world.

I don’t buy it – that more harm has been done in the service of religion than for anything else, nor that we would have very little violence in our world if we managed to successfully abolish religious belief.

As for the amount of harm, how exactly is that counted? In bodies? Let’s look at some of history’s largest armed conflicts and genocides. World War II had between 40-70 million casualties, 6 million of those being Jews killed in the extermination camps. Clearly a particular group was targeted for their religio-ethnic identity, but we go too far in saying World War II was a religious war. It was not. Along with World War II, the An Shi Rebellion in medieval China (approx. 35 million deaths), the Mongol and Tatar invasions of the 12th-14th centuries (est. 45 million deaths), the Manchu conquest of the 17th century (est. 25 million deaths), the Dungan revolt of the 19th century (est. 25 million deaths), and World War I (approx. 20 million deaths) round out the list of the genocides and armed conflicts with the highest estimated body counts. None of these can be described legitimately as religious wars, or wars conducted primarily under the banner of a religion.

The European conquest of the Americas has a death count estimated at 50 million, which includes deaths from the diseases brought to the immunity-lacking natives. Some estimates put the death count here as high as 100 million. Certainly, religion played a role in these deaths; religion was (and remains) part of the rationale of colonialism. However, it’s only a third. Colonialism is a three-headed hydra that seeks to impose not only a culture (usually a religious culture) but also a form of government and an economic system. Hence, colonial conquest is a much – or more – about money and power as it is about religion.

The religious wars in Europe? The war in the Balkans in the 1990′s? The Rwandan genocide? Yes, these involve religion to a large extent. And, make no mistake about it, they are horrible. But, in terms of measuring “the most harm” in number of deaths, these conflicts don’t come near those listed above.

So, I don’t think the available data supports the notion that religion has done more harm than anything else. Moreover, even if it had – and we were able to somehow abolish religion from the hearts of people everywhere – I’m not sure we would have a reduction in world violence. Religion, like every other human cultural product (or, as a perfect revelation given by God but nevertheless managed and propagated in the world by limited, flawed human beings), does not exist as a freestanding force or entity in the world apart from its human “creators” or “caretakers.” In other words, religion qua religion doesn’t do a darn thing in the world. WE do it. When violence has been done in the name of religion, it’s not religion itself – as a separate force in the world – that has done it. WE have done it, through religion.

The alleged violence of religion is simply our own violence done in religion’s name. Without religion, we simply find other banners under which to continue our deadly plans. The violence of religion is not the problem; the real problem is the seemingly primal violence embedded in our own hearts. It is that violence which is most resistant to uprooting.

Ironically, religion is the tool we most commonly use to do just that.

I think even one violent death in the name of religion undoes all of the good acts. So over the years the MILLIONS of people that have been hanged, burned, beheaded, drawn & quartered, beaten sensless, dismembered, impaled, tortured, mentally abused so forth and so on by religion more than wipe out any good things religion has contributed. CBN broadcast a segment last week stating that the new hate crimes law infringed upon their right to freedom of religion. In other words they think they have the right to verbally inspire or actually do physical harm to fellow American based upon their sexual orientation. The Texas Republican Party Platform seeks to decriminalize crimes against gay people based upon religious beliefs. In other words it’s O.K. to continue to use your archaic superstition to harm others.

So Jill, yes religion has done more harm than good and continues to do so. Just ask one small child who has been beaten black and blue with a belt because their religious zealot parents think their religion compels them to do so.

Several points show that religion has done more harm than good. The main one being that the Catholic church has refused to condone birth control, leading to overpopulation, poverty, and hungry in many corners of the world.

How about the Crusades and Inquisitions?

How about Muslim religious leaders who flame anti-Western sentiments by using the Qu’ran as a book of hatred and not a book of peace?

And, finally, the worst thing religion has done for the world is claim a monopoly on truth, i.e., it’s your church’s way or the highway. This is the case with many issues, from stem cell research to end of life care to whether or not a woman can walk down the street with a male family member. Slavery was justified as a cultural institution in the USA by religious beliefs.

When asking about harm vs. good, we shouldn’t fall into the trap of only considering mass killings and genocides as harmful things. It’s society’s institutions, laws, and traditions that are most influenced by religion, and we see that in radically religious countries those institutions and traditions have been generally oppressive and distasteful.

The question is one that makes a flawed assumption. It assumes that Religion is optional. You might as well ask if the existence of man has done more harm than good to man. Only when you look at what makes up religion from an abstract, dispassionate perspective is it obvious that what we call religion is merely a flavor of religion, and our minds cannot function apart from the same constructs that make up religion whether we admit it or not.

Take belief: No one actually gains much of their “knowledge” first hand, or even second hand. We learn mostly from trusted sources, and the primary factor of trust is based on familiarity and consistency. Some will claim that religion is when it is not strictly logical and reason (or some other term) is when it is, but thinking persons can never test the logic of more than a miniscule portion of their belief system.

What about morality? Morality or Ethics are both constructed out of values first, and then may employ some rational scrutiny, but it is the assumed values derived from the least logical recesses of our belief systems that form the basis.

This is not to say that we cannot point to examples of the flavor of religion we call “religion” having been at the root of unspeakable atrocity, but we can also point to the flavor of religion we call “patriotism” and even the flavor we call “justice”.

Most people whom I have heard speak of Religion as doing harm, only have any thoughts concerning the Abrahamic faiths, which are admittedly very violent, but are not representative of all religions, even the ones we call “religion”.

Well, I’m not religious, but I think you hit the nail on the head, and some of the responders have missed the boat. It’s not religion that kills people, it’s the people involved. Take away religion, and there would be some other justification. WWII is the right example. Germans and Japanese are not particularly religious people, so the ideological purity necessary to push a whole people down the path of evil was provided in nationalism. Similar with WWI. The Chinese have never been particularly religious, yet their history is replete with the same cruelty and pogroms found in other civilizations. Religion isn’t the reason for some people’s cruelty, it’s the excuse. Take it away, and the same people would find other justifications.

Even the religions themselves generally have good messages. The danger isn’t in religion, it’s in the drive to control those that are not like us – whether the justification is race, religion, nationality. What leads to all of the death and destruction is intolerance.

While you have, with reasonable accuracy, described a good set of historical conflicts and disasters with which religion per se, had little to do, there remains a set we can, without serious question, lay at its feet. But the question posed in your post is is whether or not religion has done more harm than good. It seems to me this was not addressed.

Surely we can agree, and in fact point to examples, of good done primarily by certain religious charities for example. The central question remains however, “have these and other ‘good deeds’ out-weighed the bad?” – examples upon which we can doubtless agree as well.

You make an interesting point steering away from the mass examples and toward the subtle controls that religion exert. However, I would ask you – does the culture adapt to reflect the religion or does the religion adapt to reflect the culture?

I would argue that the second is true. Consider the differences between the prevailing Christianity/religion of New England – a more liberal, intellectual, deist non-literal tradition – and the South – a more conservative, perfect Bible, emotional tradition. What has the greater impact the culture or the religion?

Also, look historically. Christianity spread because in its original form men and women were considered equal and brothers and sisters in the faith. When it spread to Rome (a paternal society), the religion quickly became highly patriarchal.

I think that the religion is more likely to reflect the prevailing mores of a culture than the culture change to reflect the religion.

Religion certainly tanked the Muslim Arab/Middle Eastern culture. Once they were the luminaries of the intellectual world, inventors of Algebra and zero, namers of stars, welcoming people of all faiths and translaters of books from all around the world. Then a zealot came along who proclaimed that mathematics was the work of the devil and it devolved into the social carnage most of the Middle East is today. Watch Neil deGrasse Tyson’s talk on Intelligent Design and see if it doesn’t start you thinking hard about the direction this country is and has been taking.

You have a good point, however, I think it’s very close to impossible to disentangle the effects of religion on culture and vice versa. But certainly, there are institutions and traditions which may or may not be CAUSED by religion that certainly are allowed to continue well beyond their usefulness in the name of religion. I am specifically considering slavery here, as well as the oppression of women that continues in the Arab world.

Additionally, there are strong anti-intellectual and/or counterintuitive results that spring from religious thought, particularly with respect to technology and scientific progress. For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses will not accept a blood transfusion. My previous example about birth control can also be considered here. You could also consider the jailings and killings of scientific minds like Galileo. For a long time, mathematics was considered to have no applications to the physical world because God created the world perfectly according to His Laws. Now we have begun to realize those laws arise naturally without any prima facie intervention.

My point remains that religion enables cultures to demonize that which lies outside of what is well-established as knowledge, thus preventing the pursuit of such. All cultures which attempt use religion to monopolize truth claims are oppressive and detrimental to the progress of mankind.

Germans and Japanese are not particularly religious people, so the ideological purity necessary to push a whole people down the path of evil was provided in nationalism

You forget the Japanese worshiped their emperor as a god. Hitler revived and their is evidence that he wanted to reawaken the old Nordic religion. The Germans are very religious. Remember Luther and German Catholics fought hard in the defense of their belief during the 30 yrs war. Baron von Braunfels lead a group of German Catholics to Texas.

Body counts do not describe the damage entirely and many of these wars had multiple and ulterior motives. My question is why do we even have to ask whether religion has been more damaging? Shouldn’t it line up so heavy on the good side if religion was doing what it it claims to do. If it is the positive force that it claims we should be asking why the exceptions. Western religion is politics not spiritual growth. It is about following a formula or dogma blindly and allowing others to tell you what the meaning of anything is. Blind obedience to anything causes great damage.

Religion is a product of human minds, without humans religion does not exist. As such it is ironic that religion is the most effective tool to control human minds.

Christianity is the most vicious of all religion to date, it is a ‘bail-out’ religion. One can do whatever he/she wants and Jesus would bail him/her out to ‘heaven’. There is no honor, no deterrence, no retribution in Christianity.

Excellent point! The question is whether religion necessitates blind obedience. I would argue that it does not. There are religions and religious beliefs that are about the journey and questioning, as well as discussion. There are also branches in all of the world’s major religions that instruct their followers to share, discuss, or consider. The dangerous religions are indeed the ones that ask their followers not to question. However, I would argue that when that happens the religion ceases to be about the beliefs and becomes about the power of the religious leaders. Religion in that case is a tool in the hands of power-seekers. Is religion a dangerous tool? Absolutely! But there are other tools… tribalism, race, nationalism, class, resource inequity.

I would also argue that blind obedience can exist without religion. This is what happened in World War II. Despite Hitler’s fascination with the occult, his rise to power and his horrible deeds were not about religion. They were about the German people’s willingness to subsume their will to his.

I guess that you could define religion in such a way that it is limited to blind obedience, but I think that we will benefit when our world can get away from that definition. Religion as any strongly held convictions is too broad a definition to be useful.

I would say that religion has been a root cause for more wars than any other single factor. The harm caused by a war are easy to quantify compared to the good done in the name of religion making it appear to be ore harmful than good. Due to difficuly in equally quantifying the two impacts, noone can really say with any degree of certainty a valid supportable answer.

I’m not sure it really matters because you can’t get rid of religion. It’s part of every culture in the world whether people try to stamp it out or not. It would be like saying “would we be better off without music”. It’s part of what makes us human.

A different question, which really hits the same type of argument, might be “Is it ever OK to kill, harm, conquer, repress, etc. in the name of religion?”

It depends more on the person rather than the religion. Islam is a perfect example of this. Islam may be a religion of peace, but extremists will stop at nothing to twist its teachings to justify murder and mayhem. Christian evangelists have had great success in bilking people out of their life savings by threatening them with eternal damnation if they don’t fork it over. Hare Krishnas used to invade college campuses and lure our kids away from promising careers, only to end up brainwashed and destitute, sometimes physically and sexually abused by the Lord Krishna himself.

Religion has provided a framework and a set of moral standards to keep us on the straight and narrow. But then, the Old and New Testaments also warn us of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Jill, hats off to you, the subjects you come up with for discussion sure get the juices flowing. I was on this site this morning, there was no post, checking now I see not only a post but responders galore.

Good subject, thanks for the post.

Actually there is a truth in what someone stated earlier, that when any discussion takes place on religion it revolves around Abrahamic religions. One reason because all are revealed religions from the same Creator, and constitute majority of humans on earth. Sadly enough since Islam is the last and final message to come, it gets picked on.

But do not blame violence on religion. These messages came to us from the Supreme being to show us the proper way to live on this beautiful planet of ours, and showed us how interact with each other, if only people would take time to read and understand the message, it would be a beautiful experience for them.

But then there is the concept of heaven and hell that everyone believes in. This is also created by the Supreme Being. This tells us that not all of us will grasp the true knowledge even in this world and wars and genocides will happen. They may be for territorial or for resource gains, at national and individual levels.

I disagree with your conclusion, but mainly due to the scope in which you developed it. Laying the focus on “wars” instead of the pervasive views that many religions infuse into daily life only distracted from what critics think regarding the “harm” religion has done to our society.

Instead of focusing on massacres, why not address the areas where religion promoted ignorance of science, hypocrisy, and oppressive dogma.

When the Pope goes to Africa and persists in saying condoms are bad…in the face of AIDS crisis, isn’t that just another example of the harm that religion has done?

Apathy towards others is no less harmful than directly warring on them. If you need I can list hundreds of examples where “religion” did cause or promote the harm. Religion is a very powerful elixir.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I can’t confirm that indeed “religion has done more harm than good” because it is a truly unquantifiable postulate, but in order to be honest about it, we’d have to look at all the different ways Religion affects our society and thinking then decide…is it more harmful.

Do the seeds of the tyrants you listed come from a religious zeal, even it there is no official seal on the zeal?

Well if you are a conservative you’d say “no”. If one is a liberal one would say “yes”….. unless of course he or she is taking about Islam then the answer would be “no”. Liberals simply hate Christianity, not the “religion of peace”.

So many responses on here look like hate just looking for a reason. So there is probably no reason to suggest that some of the responses do not understand the tenets of Christianity. The problem is human nature and that is not changed by retribution. Those that think all religions are social institutions think in more legalistic terms.

When you pose these kinds of questions, you may as well be asking has “human nature done more harm than good?” Have atheists done more harm than good? Probably! Although it is anachronistic to attempt to judge a historical era by your own, it does seem that all religion institutions, including Christianity, have been used for harm. Anything that human beings are a part of has that risk. Not because the tenets of the religion are bad, but because the institutions are used by some for the wrong purposes.

You’ll look good in a hajib. When Islam prevails, and it will, thanks to the help of liberal morons like you-you won’t have a column to write, you won’t be able to manage money. You will walk behind you man, and speak ONLY when spoken to.

Sadly, the close-minded are starting to hijack the blog. It’s really sad. One person said that “liberals hate Christianity” and said that all liberals would say that religion has done more harm than good. I can’t stand this kind of close-minded, judgmental thinking. Here is one liberal who has (as you will see above) argued that it is not religion, but human nature and the search for power that has caused the problems. Yet I am judged and found wanting by a neolithic conservative. THAT is the kind of thinking that has caused the problems – the unwillingness to consider others or their views as valid.

Good Grief!!! Would that mankind would understand that the inner being is both created & Creator & also understand that this life is but a path to return to the untimate perfect mind. If we each are the same, how can we destroy the Creator’s perfection?

You are correct in stating that MAN has the problem. The great teachers, thinkers, mathematicians, and prophets all expressed essentially the same thing and it wasn’t a religion…it was a principal of love, peace and a path way to happiness. THEN away we all went with a way to gain followers and changed the original principals to religions.

Religious zealots are more psychotic than they are religious. Maybe the question we should ask ourselves is, “Are my religious actions causing more harm than good.” Christ instructs Christians to avoid conflict, but at the root of many conflicts today, we find fanatical Christians. In the Middle East we find fanatical Muslims at the root of conflict. Around the world, religious fanaticism is epidemic and wreaking havoc on millions of innocent people. Religion isn’t responsible for this, it’s the misguided, irresponsible believers who are at fault.

Christianity has done more harm than good. It is a for profit non-profit business that uses heaven and hell to bring people to the alter of $$$$. George Bush and his Evangelicals created 9/11 and the rest of the hatred the world has for the U.S. Bush supported Isreal to preserve the holy land for Evangelicals and FOR NO OTHER REASON.

Several points show that religion has done more harm than good. The main one being that the Catholic church has refused to condone birth control, leading to overpopulation, poverty, and hungry in many corners of the world.

>> really? we produce food for 8 billion or so, the problem is distribution, not lack of food.

How about the Crusades and Inquisitions?

>> what about it? it was how many years ago, let it go, religons have changed since then.

How about Muslim religious leaders who flame anti-Western sentiments by using the Qu’ran as a book of hatred and not a book of peace?

>> one day they will grow up.. they will have there own Seperation of Church/State, remember for much of the 19-20th centurn they where “controlled” by western goverments.

And, finally, the worst thing religion has done for the world is claim a monopoly on truth, i.e., it’s your church’s way or the highway. This is the case with many issues, from stem cell research to end of life care to whether or not a woman can walk down the street with a male family member. Slavery was justified as a cultural institution in the USA by religious beliefs.

>> again, we are not bound by them, they have the same right to civil discourse as you do.

When asking about harm vs. good, we shouldn’t fall into the trap of only considering mass killings and genocides as harmful things. It’s society’s institutions, laws, and traditions that are most influenced by religion, and we see that in radically religious countries those institutions and traditions have been generally oppressive and distasteful.

We have religion in the West based on quid pro quo obedience and obedience in the face of fear. The people who hijack the movements understand there is great power to be had. If we had a religion that said question everything then it would be much harder for the cult of personality power seekers to function. I am not naive enough to think they would go away though. Buddhism says question everything. I like that. I also get a lot of grief for it. But Buddhism is not necessarily a religion depending on how one practices it. The motivation for adopting a belief is overlooked here. I think fear, ignorance and superstition are the root of all the problems mentioned. People cloak their fear of things in religion. What they do not understand can frighten them and they turn to religion instead of knowledge. They also cloak their desires to justify them. Somehow people seem to believe that if you believe hard enough you can change realty rather than learning, understanding and coping with things. There is a basic laziness or block that seems to make people turn to the easy way of dealing with stuff. I’ll just take my religion arrow out of the quiver and shoot that damned problem and be done with it. That arrow often get loosed at other people, science, medicine and progress in general.

The religion of the Dragon, the False Prophet, and the Beast has already proven to create a “group frenzy gang mentality” whereby individual accountability is minimized and millions of deaths have occurred. “Religion” needs to be qualified because “believers” in Jesus do mostly good things, very small violence.

You have raised a great question that brings alot of negative and positive responses. Here is mine.

My faith teaches me to love my neighbor, not just any-how to get by the day but to love my nieghbor as I do myself, Mt. 22:39(kjv). If I want my nieghbor to love me I have to love him. Now if love is not the word that YOU want to here in Mt. 7:12 (kjv) teaches me to do unto others as i would like them to do to me. My faith! This means that if I do not want to be harmed I will not harm anyone. If I do not want to be hurt I will not hurt anyone. If i want people to help me i will help people. Again, my faith with Jesus Christ. That is just one example of my faith. Here are some more examples, just really fast.

My faith teaches me to forgive because i have been forgiven of my wrong doings. Love, not just my nieghbor but my wife and children. My faith teaches my to be a blessing to others by offering what I have and who I am. For example if someone comes and visits me and it gets late stay the night and rest, if i am haveing a BBQ and we run out of food I am sure my freezer is not empty.

MY faith teaches me to give, help, love, respect, honor. MY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. My faith in Jesus Christ is my religion and I beleive that people’s religion is their faith. I also believe that if your faith is Jesus then we should be walking in the same footsteps because there is only one Jesus, not two.

Jill, my meaning of the word religion is not the same as the “religion” that you talk about and saddly there are many people that beleive in Jesus and have so much hate and anger that their god is just that of a religion. Other cultures have other religious believes and I cannot defend or accuse them when my faith is diferent.

Every time I think of this question I remember the moment in Wal Mart when the woman in front of me took offense when I sighed heavily at the sight of her overloaded basket in the check-yourself-out lane. She told me she was a good christian, and then she threatened to beat me up in the parking lot while shaking her 3 inch fingernail in my face. And then there was the carpet cleaners who, after the job had been done, said, “Oh, I take Cash Only — and “Mine is a Christian Business.” I am sick to death of people who live their lives any way BUT Christ-like, but throw the word ‘christian’ in your face to make money or whatever.

Atheistic communism murdered over 100 million of its own people in the 20th century. As the Russian author Dostoevsky said: “If there is no God all things are permissible.” The only alternative to Christ is the nihilist Fredrich Nietzsche, not humanists like Bertrand Russell.

Interesting perspective. I buy your argument that harm brought in the name of religion is second in historical scale to harm brought apart from religion. But the second argument of the article – that religion doesn’t cause violence, rather WE cause violence – sounds a lot like an old standby… “guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” Yes, people do kill people. But one has to wonder how many fewer people people would kill if they had no guns to kill people with. After all, if a certain weapon is so common in our society, aren’t we more inclined to use it? Likewise, if religion is such a prevalent “justification” for violence as it is, then it seems the same logic that supports the regulation and control of certain firearms would support the condemnation or censureship of certain religion(s) or offensive (opposite of ‘defensive’) religious practices. Put simply, people might resolve their differences more constructively if the weapon of religion weren’t the first thing we all reached for.

Wow, what a read to go all the way through this thread! Every common hatred and bias seems to be well represented.

I seriously doubt that most posters actually know the amount of good that is happening around the world and person to person in the name of tenets of genuine faith. I doubt that most know how many people are being fed, clothed, orphanages built and maintained, water wells dug, people cared for and encouraged…and the list goes on and on in the name of the tenets of faith.

I seriously doubt much or any of that is happening in the name of atheism. Honestly, when was the last atheist mission trip or food drive? However, school me if you have more information than I do. Even if atheist humanitarian events can be documented, would it surprise any of us knowledgeable of what faith communities are doing that 1,000 faith events could be listed for every one?

It is easy for all of us to bash what we don’t know (and I quickly include myself) based upon our own bias from the convenience of our safe computer.

I am a person of faith and I would say a whole lot of harm has happened in the name of religion from all the religions. It is true that a whole lot of control and domination and evil has come at the hands of people who incorrectly attach their actions to a religion to try to justify what is unjustifiable. But, at the same time, a whole of good has happened in the name of the tenets of faith and to ignore that is to be willingly ignorant.

I think, at the end of the day, unless the tenants of that religion inherently calls for hatred and harm upon others, the real culprit is the nature of mankind and the choices of individuals to pervert the tenants of faith or to ignore those tenants and create harm.

If someone perverts or ignores faith tenants, it seems silly to me to lay the blame at the feet of that faith when instead it belongs to the choices of that person.

I think people only do that when they already have a built-in bias toward a faith tenant and want to use this opportunity to bash it.

Without a doubt the world and chron.com are much better places with Dr. Carroll involved in them. She and I do not always agree but she is a much appreciated objective voice of reason in what can be very emotionally laden discussions. Once again, you wrote a great blog Jill.

This is a great discussion–maybe the best ever on this blog. The comments are directed mostly to a kind of “macro” perspective on religion, and that’s a huge subject, of course. But suppose we consider whether religion has done more harm than good to the individual human spirit. Are we better off with the comfort and reassurance that religion gives us—the hope that we are loved, watched over, given a meaning for our lives and a rescue from the finality of death? Or would we be better off if we believed that we were truly on our own? What would happen if we had to create our own meaning?

Guns do not kill people, people use guns to kill. Religion has not done the harm. Lunatics full of pride and arrogance have used religion to get what they want. Religion feeds the hungry and shelters the homeless. Religion keeps GOOD morals at the forefront of our society. People misuse religion for their own gains. If it were not for religion, those people would use something else for their gain.

Many, many of us would argue that point with you. I won’t waste my breath or bandwidth. Take it from someone who has been on the receiving end of your “good” morals his whole life….religion, not the people, is the problem not the answer.

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Religion is myth, fables and folklore used by whomever is in-charge at the moment to implement THEIR morals, not good morals. I’m a gay American citizen, I believe those who need religion are one or more of the following:

In my opinion it is EGO that does harm, and ego choices in the clothing of religion that causes the harm that other egos will lay on the religion itself.

It is ego that claims a One True Religion. Ego that claims all religion is evil and/or harmful. What is ego? Ego is that sense of ourselves as separate from others, as better than (and less than) others, the I and My and Me.

Ego is critical to our development, but like baby teeth is meant to be grown through and shed to show our True Selves (One, Love, Divine).

As Jesus said: The Kingdom of Heaven is Within You. There are equally True sayings in Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Tao, Islam, Bahai, Jain, and other spiritual and religious traditions.

Religion, culture, society, etc. is the medium through which ego acts. It is Ego that is the problem.

It isn’t ‘religion’ as such…it is fundamentalism in all of its ways and flavors, whether it’s Christianity, Sikhism, Islam, whatever. Believe whatever you want, just keep it the hell away from me . Keep it inside your own doors.And by all that any of these ‘religions’ believe to be holy, leave other people the hell alone.

I’m not big on tolerance. I think it smacks of elitism(the unstated belief that your own structure of tenets is superior, but you’ll ‘tolerate’ others beliefs). I guess I come down on the side of agnosticism9at most) and the fervent desire for all the rest of the zealots and whackos to just go away.

Religion has done immense violence in the apst and immense violence is done today in its name. Right here in America, if you take away teh public spotlight and ask people in anonymity (like in a blog or a comment board, say in the local newspaper)how they feel about Islam, they would be perfectly happy carrying on the Crusades of the Middle Ages..Death to Muslims!!.Ii’ve read their hate filled comments in this very paper.

Perhaps once upon a time in a land far far away where fairies and unicorns roamed religion served a purpose. I believe it’s (religion) original intent was to pay homage to the forces that create and move this universe. Now, most religions tend to be more self serving interesting in keeping the masses ignorant, obedient, and dependant. Rather than encourage people to find their own personal connection to the forces that create and move this universe they emphasize an idea that only though their council and guidance can you find that connection. Of course if they did that encourage independent thought & personal connection they would put themselves out of business, because after all that’s what it religion is… a business.

For those who point out WWII as not religion-based, what needs to be looked at are the speeches that were given by Hitler and his marketing managers. In every speech, the primary emphasis on the superiority of the German people was based on Christianity and the need for all true Christians to oppose, violently if necessary, anarchists and anarchism. The fight by Christians against Judaism and elimination of Jews was spelled out as a fight against the anarchism and crimes against Christians by the money-makers. So, while there were many reasons given for WWII which by historians who interpret insulted honor, national pride, and the like stemming from the end of WWI, the reality is that the war was sold to the German people as a Holy War against the anarchists who were seeking to destroy the True Christians of German descent. That is why so many in the US backed the German ideology and war with people such as Prescott Bush (G.W.’s grandfather) very publically and vocally supporting the German cause and making their fortune off of supplying goods to and war profiteering off the Germans for more than half the war.

Likewise, the war in Japan was sold as a holy war by Nippon (The People) against the Geijin (white devils) of the west who were trying to destroy the morals and principles of Japanese religion and ancestor worship with their Christian beliefs.

What makes the overlooked True Christians and “War on Anarchism” speeches and marketing campaign by Hitler’s supporters even more interesting is that every major “War on Terrorism” speech by G. W. Bush following 9/11 was an exact English interpretation of one of the Hitler speeches from the 1930s with only two words being changed; terrorist and terrorism for anarchist and anarchism.

Finally, it is splitting hairs to say that it is the people who do bad things, not the religion. With that sort of reasoning, it is just as valid to say that governments, political parties, companies, or ‘pick whatever name/title fits’ do not do bad things, cause harm, or make bad desicions, only people do.

In reality, just as a company and government are held responsible for the individuals that work for and make up the government, company, organization, and the like, regardless of what religion one chooses to name, the people in the religion are the religion. None of the religions in the world would exist without the people. Which means, any bad, evil, or atrocious deeds performed by the members of a religion in the name of that religion deserve to be laid firmly at the feet of that religion., and all the people who choose to belong to that religion.

It is, to again use WWII as an example, the responsibility of all who make up a society to police the actions of the others in that society. That is why, although the large majority of them never took part in atrocities against Jews or anyone else, the entire population of Germany was forced to acknowledge the crimes of their leaders and take part in helping clean up the death camps, assist the survivors, pay reparations to the survivors, and the like. The crime of the majority of the German populace was called a crime of omission 9 (i.e., claiming they had nothing to do with the choices of those who committed the crimes and it was not their fault for deliberately ignoring the evil around them).

The Allies did not buy that argument, stating that it is the responsibility of people in a civilized society to police themselves and not allow such bad things to happen.

The same thing applies to the claim by members of a religion that the evil deeds of leaders and others in their religion who do evil in the name of the religion is not their fault and does not apply to them or their religion. If all the members of that religion are not actively fighting against the evil, then they are just as guilty of the crimes of their leaders as the leaders themselves.

Again, the people are the religion, and if the people do bad things, then the blame belongs to both the people and the religion.

People don’t stop to consider that religion was the precursor to all governments. It was the original binding force that bound social interaction among humans living in groups. Now you can go ahead and ask if government has done more harm than good. I doubt anyone can reasonably answer that question about either religion OR government because it’s so impossible to collect and judge all the instances of either good or bad associated with either. Besides, even if we could make a convincing case against religion, that wouldn’t get rid of it.

While I agree with your basic idea that it is mankind who is prone to violence and that violence would exist without the impetus of religion, I think you are letting organized religion off much too easily. You are greatly oversimplifying the relationship between “good” and “bad” in the history of religion.

I was raised Catholic and it is impossible to ignore the organized way in which the Roman Catholic institutionalized arm of the Church actively used its’ power to incite violence in Europe for its’ own gain in the middle ages.

I lived in Europe for many years and most of the Europeans I know still hold the Catholic church in contempt for this part of their history.

While I am not in complete agreement with their view it is based on real history.

And the Catholic church is just one example of organized abuse of religion in human history.

I should add that I had a very positive experience, personally, growing up in a small town Catholic church. So I know first hand about the good that comes from religion. It is easy to oversimplify this issue on both sides.

Religion doesn’t do harm directly, it simply provides a convienient mechanism for people to manipulate other people into accepting or perpetrating certain actions, regardless of whether future outside observers classify them as good or evil.

This mechanism works well for two reasons; one, even though no two people follow the same religion 100%, overlapping beliefs give them the sense that others are acting in accordance to what they “know” is right even if they wouldn’t come to the same conclusion if they examined the action outside the context of their religion.

And two, religion seldom requires a logicaly sound examination of whether a given action is right or wrong. In many cases it expressly forbids it. Therefore, it’s quite easy to convice people that something is right or good simply because someone else who believes the way they do says it is (see number one).

Religion has been used to justify horrors against anyone not of “Their religion” for the history of mankind. You gloss over WW2, serb/croat, and the African conflicts. The lines of these conficts were drawn by the religions of the area/time. A better question is when has religion NOT drawn these lines.

But lets ignore the macroscale and go to the microscale. Many of the social conflicts of our history are directly linked to religion. Slavery, women’s rights, or even self identity are/have been diminished by religion. There are no female catholic priests because women are not as good as men.

Many of the goods you or other claim for religion, comes from community not religion. Ethics does not spring only from religion. Half of the ten commandments tells you how to worship, not how to treat your fellow man. I’ve seen the same charity from the Houston Food bank as I’ve seen from any church kitchen.

Any religion that gets control of a country promptly starts screwing “Non-believers”. Even the Dali Lamia’s “Church” put the screws into the peasants of Tibet. Sad to think that China’s occupation may have improved their condition.

Between the self image destruction of being a sinner, not by choice, but birth. Being taught that are bodies are dirty. From having your beliefs shoved down my throat from everything to blue laws and the war on drugs. From watching your churches turn a blind eye to genocide, or pedophiles. From your wars to inquistions to subjigation of “Heathens”, I cannot help but come to the conclusion that religion harms far more than it heals.

Show me the good. Show me that a family adopts a child, not because they want a child to love, but because they are “Good Christians” Show me that I can’t believe in the inherent goodness of man without giving credit to some nebulous being that requires I pay him homage or burn. Show me any religious person that doesn’t look down on someone outside his faith.

Mena and women have fought and died for family, for friends, for beliefs in freedom, for art. for love. None of these things require your faith. I just want the freedom to not be afraid that people like you are going take control over our government and legislate yourself into making this a “Christian Nation.” I think I would enjoy that about as much as an “Islamic one.”

And just for the sake of arguement, I am a nurse. I spend my time helping people. I am an army vet with nearly a decade of service. I am an ethical person, with a wife and a loving family. I made these choices and this life with out your faith.

Religion is a personal experience as opposed to a collective, in my opinion. The faithless and Godless people of the world would be wise to look to the heavens and contemplate how ‘they got here’ and for what reasons. Did we arrive by accident as many would have the ‘colllective’ believe? Were we conceived by happenstance? How about the ever popular theory of evolution? The universe is so vast our human minds are unable to fully comprehend its lack of boundary or understood limits. There are star systems in the heavens that are 1,000 times larger than our own Sun. In our own galaxy, the Milky Way, it takes ligtht over 100,000 light years (traveling at the speed of light) to travel from one end to the other. That is amazing. How did these vast and incomprehensible systems come into existence? I doubt these questions can be answered by science alone. Our Earth is a infinitesimally small part of a much bigger picture. How sad, arrogant, ignorant, and disasterous for some to believe they don’t need God or a belief system outside of themselves in which to believe? Religion has most certainly brought much more good than bad to this world. It’s not God’s fault we’ve largely taken nature and each other for granted and basically continue to screw things up on a daily basis. God said ‘love one another’. I dare say that was not a suggestion.

It’s a fine balance. It’s really a moot point. Religion is the depth of belief. My methodist church doesn’t beat and burn people to death. They don’t demand money. They don’t make you take communion. They don’t make you pray. They don’t make you dress up or teach classes. They have lots of organizations within the church that help seniors with the upkeep on their houses, go on mission trips to poor villages in Mexico and Africa and provide them with eyewear and dental and even surgery free of charge. They provide free counseling for every situation you can imagine. They help the community and others outside their walls. Our church took in over 100 families affected by Katrina, and found them jobs and homes and food and medical…for nothing in return. For this…we get insulted and hammered in the press as religious zealots full of bigotry and hatred for those not like what we look like. The ones who throw the biggest stones and who crow the loudest have no idea about what many of these churches do for the hurting and unfortunate, because they don’t even attempt to find out. Anyone can just show up. There’s no admission for anything. We don’t shove anything down your throat, nor do we indoctrinate anyone for any reason. At least that’s the way it is in my church. I personally volunteered to help others in the 2001 Allson floods for 2 weeks, because I lost everything I owned in the 1994 floods. I knew how to help. They needed me, and I was there. Joe is not my real name because I don’t need to glorify myself, because I believe God wanted me to help those people in that way and in other situations I’ve survived in life. If I can help others to not make the mistakes I have…that’s one of the main reasons I go there…not to make myself look holy or better than thou. I sleep well at night knowing I helped someone, and that’s good enough for me.

When I read about the daily suicide bombings around the world and think about how many people have died over the years because of terrorist attacks by religious people I have to answer yes to your question. I also believe you are wrong when you say “in the name of religion” because I believe people carry out these barbaric acts as a result of religion.

But what about religions like Islam that DEMAND violence against innocent people?

You have to also look at the people who established the religion. For example, Mohammad robbed and murdered innocent people (and raped a 9 year old girl). He told his followers to kill those who do not believe as he believed.

Try a relationship instead of religion. Religion seems to rely on other men to explain how you act and feel. A relationship eithers improves are you lose it all together. In the sake of any religion that encourages you to act beyond the realm of your own safety; I have to draw the line as bad!

If you take the broad view that any belief system constitutes a religion among the cadre of followers who haven’t properly analyzed the pros and cons, then secular humanism falls clearly within that realm. What the anti-religion crowd is really fussing about is anyone or anything that relates to a deity. But they fail to note the reflection in the mirror that reveals the deity they worship and serve by default – “self”. And when self gets too big and begins to feel constrained, conflict erupts. Because one self needs to demonstrate superiority over someone else’s self.

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The interesting antiodote to this situation is that by externalizing the deity – I’ll say it here – “worshiping God”, one can find release from the need to constantly serve self. Therefore, mainstream religion actually tends to stave off conflict and harm, not the other way around. Greed, self-promotion and a lack of respect for others has always been at the root of armed conflict – and has accomplished more harm than good. Yes, those traits can be found in religious people too. They are inherent in the human condition. But mainstream religion teaches us to look beyond those more primitive tendancies and attempt to live in such a way as to be accountable to a higher calling.

Religion divides people and breeds judgmental bias between groups…in a way that often becomes the justification in the minds of people for war, if not the reason. Can we fool ourselves to think we don’t consider bombing Iraq different than bombing say…Denmark? Even where wars are not about religion, it still often acts as a justifier and enabler in the minds of people to kill their fellow man. At best, the non-religious wars clearly show a failure in religion on a broad scale. A better question might be…’has religion brought any good to people, in situations that weren’t masked attempts to proselytize’ i.e. (‘here is some free food, ‘are you saved’?). Even tiny differences in the SAME religion breed judgmental animosity (catholic versus Protestant, shiite versus sunni). If there were no religion and a single language…I believe people would have less opportunity to feel they are better than others based simply on their fears and lack of understanding, and therefore feel less moral justification to violence.

What a sad statement that we are more concerned with the effects of religion on our comfort. During the search for TRUTH (which is what religion is), people are going to be hurt, things are going to be hard, we are going to disagree…but man will always continue his pursuit of the truth. If that ever ended, we would be no better than animals…

I think religion has done more harm than good, because as soon as you try to define “God” (and everyone defines God to suit their own prejudices and beliefs), you’ve instantly got a wrong idea of who/what “God” actually is. And that God always seems very nasty and ready to go to war.

Anyone who tells you that “God is this” or “God is that” is LYING to you. There is an agenda there, and always has been. If a “God” force exists, no human can comprehend it – and it certainly isn’t what is described in ancient superstitious fables.

Just to clarify: Deism is no way similar or related to Christianity. Deism believes that all revealed religions, including Christianity, are false, and that God has not revealed itself to mankind other than through the natural world.

A Deist’s belief in God is based on using reason and observing the natural world alone. No faith or organized religion is required.

Folks to put this in a broader perspective, I looked up the Webster dictionary for the meaning of Religion, it means: “A belief in and reverence for a supernatural Power accepted as the Creator and governor of the Universe.”

As indicated in my post above, this points to the Abrahamic religions.

But this constitutes less than half the worlds population. The other half which has not been mentioned in the posts above, are also very large ‘Religions’ or philosophies, like communism,hinduism, sikhism, budhism – Is there not killing recorded from these groups? certainly there is. But according to the dictionary they do not quite fall in the category of religion.

My point – Do not blame the religion, blame the people.

What people do not focus on is the good that religion teaches; like love and respect for each other, wholesome family characteristics and many other good things about life, in fact religion teaches almost all good things for us to follow and make this short life a beautiful experience.

A good religion and in any country is great. the problem with religion in the immediate pass is they the religious majority served us gw bush and cheney with their control of the vote in 00 and 04 and they alone are responsible for the hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq today, not to mention the 5000+ American GI’s and the near trillion of indebtness. Where and how God will deal with or forgive them for this act is beyond my christian viewpoint. God is great but the majority listen to lies and try like the devil to make them true I guess all their religious souls will BURN IN H3LL, for murder and deceit with gw and cheney. THANK GOD.

After seeing the qualification by you to post i know my post will never see the light of day due to your idea of right and wrong. Shame on you for acting like you are GOD he punishes folks like you. Frank Bowers

Jull Carroll nailed it in her last paragraph: ” – The alleged violence of religion is simply our own violence done in religion’s name. Without religion, we simply find other banners under which to continue our deadly plans. The violence of religion is not the problem; the real problem is the seemingly primal violence embedded in our own hearts. It is that violence which is most resistant to uprooting”.

If man didn’t have religion to fight over, he will fight over skin color, eye color, nose size, or anything – no matter how trivial – that makes us different from each other as humans.

Religion’s greatest harm as I see it is that true belief in it’s postulates narrows one’s quest for the ultimate truths of the universe. If you are willing to believe those truths are self contained in your own system, tat may not be worrisome. Foe those of us who struggle to follow every string of sting theory in this interconnected universe to it’s ultimate metaphysical explanation, I believe as much as I can….and never use religion as a reason to hurt others.

Dawkins of course makes a bigger case than you for evil by a more extentive list!

It has done more bad than good when it comes to sexual child abuse too. All religions tend to minimize the problem, hide the perpetrators, they will not let the congregation know of the pedophiles in their places of worship thus endangering other kids, they do not report them to the police. “Religions” are made up of people like us, so it is up to US to stop all of these nonsense.

This is kind of like a discussion about the shape of the earth or whether or not we should use the number zero in our math.

There were many predecessors to today’s religions. Mythology filled the bill for some time, then fearing God. Now special Scientology or beliefs in various spirits & guides.

The truth remains that religion is of the unknown. When there is proof & knowledge, it changes to science. Remembering the past can help us understand various beliefs present today. Ours is right, No- It can only be the way we say. Our God is the one, No-Only our God is real

The ways these disputes have been settled just depicts the age we were in at the time. Stone that unbeliever – cut off his head – shot him with an arrow, a gun – drop a bomb on him from an airplane, or now – Kill him with the use of chemicals or our unmanned Drone that is thousands of miles away, so I can wrap up my shift and get home to dinner.

War is Hell – Does that mean Peace time is Heaven? There may become a new religion where women, children and minorities get respect, rights – which would seem strange. A religion about the people (masses), not just a person in Mecca or the Vatican or a new age cult leader, pushing Hope, Love, Prosperity & Peace can take advantage of the “little” people. So, what is the next way to make a buck from followers? Twitter me that. We can post it on Facebook :–)

‘In other words, religion qua religion doesn’t do a darn thing in the world. WE do it.’

OK – I agree, but it’s the democrats, No, no, I mean republicans, No, not them, I mean Independents. Well, some politician somewhere must be responsible & can write a new bill to change oor laws, so we can get mad & vote her out.

That Jill sure has a Sense of Humor in writing this kind of drivel for those of us with no life to anquish over.

“Man needs no excuse to exercise his murderous desires, but religion is often a convenient one and if not religion, then the State, if not the State, then family, if not family, then self, and if not self, then insanity…”

Without religious belief there would be no discusiion about wether things are morally bad or good. Morality is based on religion. It is a religous moral concept that killing someone is actually a bad thing. You have no discussion about good and evil without religion.

No one will deny that bad things have been done in the name of religous faith. Only a fool would discount the good done by religous faith. A good portion of university level education was founded by and supported by Christianity in this country (including the founding of most of the Ivy League schools). Countless Christians go around the world providing free medical care and food to people around the world. This past summer I was with a group in Honduras where 2 children would have died if not for the presence of a Christian medical team in this remote village. Ask those children’s mother if religion has done more harm than good.

Religion is no different a faculty from anyother science. They both are a result of social evolution, it gave religion its rise and now is the cause of its demise. In the grand scheme of things, it is nothing more, nothing less. The place of religion should not be in our hearts or minds or in our schools and courthouses, religion belongs in the annals of history, to be studied as we study the causes of WWII or the great depression.

There is no contradiction in Truth. It is impossible for God to be both a god of wrath and a God of Love.Religion is no different a faculty from another science. They both are a result of social evolution, it gave religion its rise and now is the cause of its demise. In the grand scheme of things, it is nothing more, nothing less.

How is it that it is common knowledge that Heaven and Hell exist and ironically, we hear the phrase, ‘Go to Hell’ more than we hear,’Go to heaven’. But that is a discussion for another time, when we talk about being nice to each other.

For now, going with this common belief, it points to the fact that there will be punishment or reward in the afterlife, whether it is termed as wrath or love, you decide.

God’s wrath has descended on nations and so also has His favors. This is all on earth to teach us good from bad.

Very well said Elaine. But tell me one thing, do you love your parents? The universal answer to that is, everyone loves one’s parents (btw here is another great topic for discussion -the rights of parents on us and reverse)

So given that we love our parents, it is a fact that children have been at the recieving end of a spank or time-out or a huge scolding.

Well as we all know parents love their children but they will resort to punishing thier children for misbehavior (a form of wrath) – why? because they are teaching them what is good and bad, this is the nature of things.

Now on the other hand, the Creator’s love for humans is tenfolds or more than parents love for their children, He created the whole humanity for a purpose. But God does the same thing as parents do. He has given each nation a manual (scriptures) to live by, which recorded the reason why some nations experienced His wrath and His favors.

It is all there for us to learn from, and again everyone universally believes in heaven and hell – these are there to hand down justice on the day of judgment, without this concept there is no meaning to life on earth. The corrupt of the world over approximately past 5000+ years will face no trail and the one’s who have been good all their life will not be awarded ??

Think about it, I know in your belief you may have a different explanation, and I respect that.