To be fair, IMO you could argue that Priests and Paladins have overlaps, just like Druids and Shaman (to a lesser extent). Overlapping motives doesn't exclude one from the other. Infact, there could be an irony in that we've seen Warlocks use magic from any forbidden source that gives them power: along with the demon minions/providers of "fuel" for spells, we've seen them use near Necromantic magic (Haunt, Soul Shards), as well as Burning Embers which was implied in the Council of the Black Harvest story to have been taken from Ragnaros at least initially before Warlocks became powerful enough to use Fel versions. Whereas, Demon Hunters could use siphoned Demonic energies that are internalized near exclusively but rely on their own strength to control it (making them similar to monks in a sense that they must control the energy within them to provide martial strength).

I'm not opposed to demon hunters as a class, but I believe there's more to gain by making them part of the warlock class.

1 - there's plenty of lore and gameplay justifications for that, so it wouldn't break lore;
2 - it would allow us to have night elf and draenei warlocks under the "noble sacrifice to fight the legion" excuse;
3 - it would allow the warlock class to maybe finally get a class hero that doesn't go batshit crazy and has to be put down;
4 - it would give devs room to work on new classes that can't be fit into other existing classes;

so I'm not opposed to demon hunters as a class, but considering that they could exist within warlocks and it would be so positive to the warlock class and for other would-be new classes, I believe making a new class for demon hunters would be sort of stupid.

Warlocks don't prevent it, if Blizzard wants to do it I am sure they can make it work. The question is does Blizzard want to do it, and it doesn't seem to be the direction they are going with it as they tend to be integrating bits with the Warlock.

IF warlocks meant to be demonhunters, maybe they should add 1 more spec where warlocks are melee class and that way can be "Illidan type" demon hunters. That would bring more perspective with "full" DPS class.

Or then Demonology spec should have compined range/melee option, mainly melee and ranged if necessary. Dual wield weapons like Illidan had and rogue type melee skills.

IF warlocks meant to be demonhunters, maybe they should add 1 more spec where warlocks are melee class and that way can be "Illidan type" demon hunters. That would bring more perspective with "full" DPS class.

Or then Demonology spec should have compined range/melee option, mainly melee and ranged if necessary. Dual wield weapons like Illidan had and rogue type melee skills.

Its idiotic to add 1 more dps spec to a 3 dps spec class already.

Melee demo, none would play that if they had option to be range instead, UNLESS melee was extremely overpowered.

Warlocks are not Demonhunters, same reason, warlocks arent Death Knights, same reason, warlocks arent mages, warlocks are warlocks period.

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Originally Posted by checking facts

I'm not opposed to demon hunters as a class, but I believe there's more to gain by making them part of the warlock class.

1 - there's plenty of lore and gameplay justifications for that, so it wouldn't break lore;
2 - it would allow us to have night elf and draenei warlocks under the "noble sacrifice to fight the legion" excuse;
3 - it would allow the warlock class to maybe finally get a class hero that doesn't go batshit crazy and has to be put down;
4 - it would give devs room to work on new classes that can't be fit into other existing classes;

so I'm not opposed to demon hunters as a class, but considering that they could exist within warlocks and it would be so positive to the warlock class and for other would-be new classes, I believe making a new class for demon hunters would be sort of stupid.

but let's just wait and see what blizz is gonna do

Respectfully, I'd disagree with you on your points.

1. Lore, being what it is, can be manipulated to whatever Blizz wants it to be to justify either option, but having DHs as a class would allow DHs to get DKesque lore, starting zone, etc, which would be another draw to Warcraft.

2. I don't really see class/race limitations as a drawback, IMO, warlocks don't make sense to either Night Elf or Draenei, and Blizz has shown that they want all specs to make some sort of sense to all races that can be them (the main example IMO would be Priests, Shadowpriests can be any race just small in numbers outside of Forsaken, but Forsaken using the Light was unheard of and near non-canon until Blizz said that Forsaken Priests can channel the Light to heal others just that it burns them so that each heal is a sacrifice on themselves). I'd doubt Draenei would be Demon Hunters anyway, I've RPed a Draenei for a while and I've read all the lore and the one conclusion I can come to is that no Draenei would willingly ever touch Demonic magic, it's too taboo. Maybe, at most, a handful of Draenei who touched Demonic magic who later were either tortured by, or transformed into, the Eredar of the Legion.

3. Yeah, Kanrethad was.... Annoying in a few ways (my personal grievance is that it was an avatar of Xel >.<) but hey there's still the Council of the Black Harvest. I swear, if I could write for Blizz I'd make a Warlock who was halfway competant.

4. This is something that's hard to comment on without knowing the dev time ratios and such, how much coding is involved, etc etc. My main argument is two things, 1) you could do SOOO much with Demon Hunters. You could have them as a three spec melee class that had good ranged spells, another unique resource like we've seen DKs and Monks have, an epic starting zone and possibly even unique ideas some people posted on forums, like the idea to "Deconstruct" any armor you're wearing into tattoos so that your Demon Hunter doesn't appear armored but instead is tattoed with varying demonic symbols that could vary depending on armor. Now, if you make a DH spec for Warlocks, leaving aside the logistics of a melee spec in a pure DPS class, you can't use ANY of these brilliant ideas, that's the problem I have. Secondly, your arguement for making Demon Hunters into Warlocks is so that Blizz can use the time spent to make DHs to make another class... It doesn't make much sense unless one doesn't like Demon Hunters, assuming the same amount of dev time, Demon Hunters are one of the most unique prestige classes Warcraft ever had, and I think when people see that WoW expansion 5 has Archdruids or Blood Mages and the idea of Demon Hunter was put into warlocks instead of being fleshed out into their own class, people will probably complain.

1. Lore, being what it is, can be manipulated to whatever Blizz wants it to be to justify either option, but having DHs as a class would allow DHs to get DKesque lore, starting zone, etc, which would be another draw to Warcraft.

the oportunity for a nice demon hunter starting zone full of was lost when they didn't make demon hunters a hero class in BC. no matter how well they make it, being trained by random demon hunter #23 won't be nearly as cool as being in service of illidan, the original demon hunter.

2. I don't really see class/race limitations as a drawback, IMO, warlocks don't make sense to either Night Elf or Draenei, and Blizz has shown that they want all specs to make some sort of sense to all races that can be them (the main example IMO would be Priests, Shadowpriests can be any race just small in numbers outside of Forsaken, but Forsaken using the Light was unheard of and near non-canon until Blizz said that Forsaken Priests can channel the Light to heal others just that it burns them so that each heal is a sacrifice on themselves). I'd doubt Draenei would be Demon Hunters anyway, I've RPed a Draenei for a while and I've read all the lore and the one conclusion I can come to is that no Draenei would willingly ever touch Demonic magic, it's too taboo. Maybe, at most, a handful of Draenei who touched Demonic magic who later were either tortured by, or transformed into, the Eredar of the Legion.

when you think that the eredar were the original warlocks and that the night elves were the original warlocks of azeroth, it feels empty to be able to play as eredar and night elves without being given the choice of playing warlock (the draenei are a faction of eredar). lorewise, they could be an extremely low number of people that decided to fight fire with fire and use demonic power for good, to hunt demons.

on WC3, all draenei looked like the lost ones. blizzard retconned their appearance and lore, linking them to the eredar, because they wanted to let us play as "archimonde". but it feels somehow bitter when you're able to play as "archimonde" but you can't choose archimonde's class.

3. Yeah, Kanrethad was.... Annoying in a few ways (my personal grievance is that it was an avatar of Xel >.<) but hey there's still the Council of the Black Harvest. I swear, if I could write for Blizz I'd make a Warlock who was halfway competant.

when you think about traditional warlocks, it's hard to write about them not becoming villains. they are work because they're greedy and power-hungry, and they would take over the world, given the chance. that's why it would be positive to have a sect of selfless guys like the night elf demon hunters as warlock heroes. they would have a definite purpose, and be somehow heroic, while still having the general warlock characteristics of power hungriness and flexible morals.

4. This is something that's hard to comment on without knowing the dev time ratios and such, how much coding is involved, etc etc. My main argument is two things, 1) you could do SOOO much with Demon Hunters. You could have them as a three spec melee class that had good ranged spells, another unique resource like we've seen DKs and Monks have, an epic starting zone and possibly even unique ideas some people posted on forums, like the idea to "Deconstruct" any armor you're wearing into tattoos so that your Demon Hunter doesn't appear armored but instead is tattoed with varying demonic symbols that could vary depending on armor. Now, if you make a DH spec for Warlocks, leaving aside the logistics of a melee spec in a pure DPS class, you can't use ANY of these brilliant ideas, that's the problem I have. Secondly, your arguement for making Demon Hunters into Warlocks is so that Blizz can use the time spent to make DHs to make another class... It doesn't make much sense unless one doesn't like Demon Hunters, assuming the same amount of dev time, Demon Hunters are one of the most unique prestige classes Warcraft ever had, and I think when people see that WoW expansion 5 has Archdruids or Blood Mages and the idea of Demon Hunter was put into warlocks instead of being fleshed out into their own class, people will probably complain.

I imagine developing a single class would be harder than creating 5 new specs, as far as dev time goes.

a new class would need it's own identity, it's own defining mechanics, it's own resources, it's own style, et cetera. a demon hunter warlock spec would move like a warlock, use warlock mechanics, warlock resources and fight like a demon hunter. a demon hunter class would need to move uniquely, have unique mechanics, have unique resources and fight like a demon hunter. all of that while avoiding to homogenize existing classes and specs as far as thematics and gameplay goes.

there are also the particularities about demon hunters that make them unlikely subjects to being a new class:

1 - the wrathion questline and shaohao videos hint that the next expansion is about the legion. we just got a new class. as blizzard said on cataclysm when they announced no new classes, a new class messes the class dynamics too much, so they can't put a new one in every time.
2 - considering loot table balance, the next class will have to be a mail or intellect plate class, most likely a mail class (since they could just do away with intellect plate). demon hunters don't fit well with heavy armor, thematically speaking. they were always shown wearing cloth or leather pants or kilts, and walking around bare-chested unless they were females.

IMHO, the game would gain way more if they were to place demon hunters into the warlock class and use a "new class slot" for something more unique, that could fit well with the game's necessities. a heavy armored melee or spell dps with or without a healing spec, and definitely without a tanking spec (our last 2 new classes could tank). it could be a tinker, or some sort of half warrior half mage, or maybe a heavy metal bard (lol), but they shouldn't warp demon hunters around loot table necessities. warlocks could be perfect receptacles for demon hunters, blizzard just has to make a few adjusts.

EDIT: I'd say monks pretty much killed demon hunters as a class from ever existing. a light armored fast paced melee fighter that uses magic, tanks and beats the shit out of people, and everything. now we have 3 cloth classes and 3 leather classes, and demon hunters niche overlaps way to much with rogues and monks, while their aesthetics and mechanics overlap way too much with warlocks.

unless blizzard wants to retcon the demon hunter class or to completely homogenize the game, they'll either insert demon hunters into the warlock class or no playable demon hunters for us in the foreseeable future.

People worry about WC3 abilities far too much. I've killed many bosses that have abilities that go far beyond what normal characters are capable of, and a future demon hunter class would be no different. In the past you were playing the heroes, the best of the best, not the cannon fodder we are as we become those legends. Our characters don't develop new abilities on their own, they don't forge new spells. We only learn from those more powerful who have. It's not hard to see why the most powerful forms of magics, or the most powerful abilities that define these heroes and villains we don't have access to, at least not for some time after they're defeated when other, still more powerful people than ourselves share what they've learned from scrolls or corpses.

If you're going to use the generic named "insert class here from multiplayer" had it too, that was for balance concerns, not based on any real lore. The story you got to play through developed the lore, the rest of the game options were just to play around in. You can't say all demon hunters got meta, because there's little basis to support that they did or didn't. There was some thrown together for a WoW D&D style tabletop game, but there's still far more unknown about DH in general than known, so they can literally go anywhere with it at this point. The Alliance Handbook isn't well known for sticking to the game it's derived from, and the game has developed very far from it's publication. Even still, if you wanna be nit-picky about it, even there it's admitted not all Meta's are equal or the same, so a shared ability name with vastly different outcomes is not too far from a real possibility.

Beyond all that, if Blizzard really wanted to add them and keep people happy about a different set of abilities they know from past games, Blizzard could completely change the way the game is viewed by making everyone and everything pulse with magical energy, or outlines that DH see through sound or other senses and remove most colors and distinction viewed through the screen when playing a DH. That would fit the lore as we know extremely well, and you could give a DH a copied and pasted abilities across the board where no one in their right mind could possibly scream homogenization simply because the game is interacted with in such a substantially altered state. Not everything has to be a new ability.

So did warlocks ruin everything? Absolutely not. I see DH making an appearance once the Legion fully returns, but that may not happen in this game at all. I expect a WC4 moving to a WoW 2 before we get a full Legion assault on Azeroth. But who knows? All stories have to end sometime, and maybe it's coming to that time at Blizzard HQ. I'm fairly certain it's in the pipeline for eventually, since they're one of the last and most beloved character types in the Warcraft universe. I'm also fairly certain that no matter how Blizzard does it, people will complain that it was garbage.

After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)

-Unretired as of the launch of 6.0! Currently guild shopping. Need a good Warlock? I need a good home!

Ireland, home of the Potato, Whisky, Drunks and Drunk Fighting Tournaments

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Originally Posted by checking facts

the oportunity for a nice demon hunter starting zone full of was lost when they didn't make demon hunters a hero class in BC. no matter how well they make it, being trained by random demon hunter #23 won't be nearly as cool as being in service of illidan, the original demon hunter.

Well, that's assuming Illidan is 100% dead (which has been hinted to not be the case, IIRC along with Maiev). Another thing is, take the DK starting zone. Who were we trained by? The LK himself? Maybe for three quests we interacted with the LK but we don't see him during the majority of the questlines, we're doing stuff for people like Helgan and Noth, just like DHs could be doing things for Akama or Leothas. And, besides, if no other option works the class starting story could take place in the past, before BC, even if you have to limit the races to no Goblins, Worgen and Pandaren (if expac 5 doesn't have a race).

Originally Posted by checking facts

when you think that the eredar were the original warlocks and that the night elves were the original warlocks of azeroth, it feels empty to be able to play as eredar and night elves without being given the choice of playing warlock (the draenei are a faction of eredar). lorewise, they could be an extremely low number of people that decided to fight fire with fire and use demonic power for good, to hunt demons.

on WC3, all draenei looked like the lost ones. blizzard retconned their appearance and lore, linking them to the eredar, because they wanted to let us play as "archimonde". but it feels somehow bitter when you're able to play as "archimonde" but you can't choose archimonde's class.

The Eredar that became Warlocks are far different to the Eredar that became Draenei, no Draenei is descended from an Eredar that touched Fel magic. Leaving aside how lore back in WC3 was, no Draenei would touch Demonic magic, it's anathema for them. It's easy today to ask why people wouldn't do X, Y or Z and go against their religion, but if you're extremely ingrained in your religion to the point of zealotry, especially if you've seen the good your religion does versus the evil that Demonic magic does, I'd say it'd be extremely hard to break tradition. I'd be half willingly to begrudgingly give Draenei Demon Hunters because of "ends justify means" and to have them explained as more radicals who were sweet-talked, corrupted and/or forced into it by other Demon Hunters (similar to Draenei DKs) if only for balance with Belves for Demon Hunters, though I think Draenei and Tauren should be the only Vanilla-BC races not able to be Demon Hunters. As for Night Elves... Were Night Elves ever Warlocks? I mean, I'm not a big fan of Nelf lore (and never read the Well of Eternity) but I always assumed that the Nelves that helped Aszhara either became Satyrs or Naga (and thus not Nelven anymore) before they had time to use demonic magic, and when they were summoning Sargeras they only used Arcane to summon him in, and didn't use Fel as a magic source.

Originally Posted by checking facts

when you think about traditional warlocks, it's hard to write about them not becoming villains. they are work because they're greedy and power-hungry, and they would take over the world, given the chance. that's why it would be positive to have a sect of selfless guys like the night elf demon hunters as warlock heroes. they would have a definite purpose, and be somehow heroic, while still having the general warlock characteristics of power hungriness and flexible morals.

Surely having to add what is essentially another class' motives to Warlocks in order to change them from being constantly chaotic evil isn't exactly indicitive of Warlocks' strengths. Yes, Warlocks are power hungry, and have flexible morals, but so have many heroes. I'm going to go the route of using examples that Wizards of the Coast used for Black to show that Black wasn't always evil in that power hungry and flexible moral characters that can be heroic at times include Bart Simpson, Daffy Duck, and George Costanza from Seinfeld. Basically, what I mean is that you can be heroic while having those qualities, and you don't have to turn into a villain like Kanrethad did. Heck, take the other 5 of the Council, they don't seem evil, and Jubeka is pretty darn Heroic. If the only way you can see Warlocks as "part of the good guys" by having to include a new race combo and a spec and only have that race/spec combo justified, then I think that that's a problem just adding a spec/race won't help.

Originally Posted by checking facts

I imagine developing a single class would be harder than creating 5 new specs, as far as dev time goes.

a new class would need it's own identity, it's own defining mechanics, it's own resources, it's own style, et cetera. a demon hunter warlock spec would move like a warlock, use warlock mechanics, warlock resources and fight like a demon hunter. a demon hunter class would need to move uniquely, have unique mechanics, have unique resources and fight like a demon hunter. all of that while avoiding to homogenize existing classes and specs as far as thematics and gameplay goes.

there are also the particularities about demon hunters that make them unlikely subjects to being a new class:

1 - the wrathion questline and shaohao videos hint that the next expansion is about the legion. we just got a new class. as blizzard said on cataclysm when they announced no new classes, a new class messes the class dynamics too much, so they can't put a new one in every time.
2 - considering loot table balance, the next class will have to be a mail or intellect plate class, most likely a mail class (since they could just do away with intellect plate). demon hunters don't fit well with heavy armor, thematically speaking. they were always shown wearing cloth or leather pants or kilts, and walking around bare-chested unless they were females.

IMHO, the game would gain way more if they were to place demon hunters into the warlock class and use a "new class slot" for something more unique, that could fit well with the game's necessities. a heavy armored melee or spell dps with or without a healing spec, and definitely without a tanking spec (our last 2 new classes could tank). it could be a tinker, or some sort of half warrior half mage, or maybe a heavy metal bard (lol), but they shouldn't warp demon hunters around loot table necessities. warlocks could be perfect receptacles for demon hunters, blizzard just has to make a few adjusts.

Again, I'm not gonna comment on Dev time since I'm not a Dev, I've never met a Dev, and I've never even been friends with anyone CALLED "Dev". Though I did stalk Ghostcrawler for a time back in the '70s, but that turned out to just be a rock lobster.

I don't think Demon Hunters could, at all, "move and act" like a Warlock. For one, Demon Hunters as a melee, weapon based class, and warlocks as a spell casting class seems a bit off to begin with. As for "Warlock Resources", which one, Shards, Fury or Embers? Of course, that's just to say that all Warlock specs have specfic resources, the one everyone's gonna pick is Demonic Fury. And honestly I understand, after all you use Fury to get into Meta. But, IMO Demon Hunters are far more than Meta, Meta for them should be something to enhance their abilities a la Ascendance, Meta for us changes our abilities entirely. Literally the only difference as far as resources and mechanics would come to is that you're making one spec instead of three... Which, IMO would be worse because you don't have the freedom to do things differently with three different specs. Like if they made DKs a spec for Warriors and gave only that spec runes they couldn't have the differing rune costs for Blood/Frost/Unholy, wouldn't be able to choose pet or not, dual handed or not, etc etc.

1. There is no confirmation that Wrathion said the Burning Legion was coming next expansion (infact I read something someone posted that, if true, gives us another few years at least IC), but even if it was, Blizz also said that adding Monks to the game was siginificantly easier than DKs. As I've said before, a LOT of DK's problems are things that are hard if not impossible to replicate in MoP: The "every spec can tank or DPS" method is gone, the "starts at level 55" was gone for monks which let them give monks an easier learning curve and IMO they'll do that for their next class, balancing was easier for them to the point where monks are at worse UNDER represented because they were used to balancing from DKs.

2. Trying to predict Blizzard's motives is a very dangerous game. I'd ask why does armor representation matter? I mean, they're going more for "Personal" rolls, and if they were trying to fill a niche then Plate Int would be the first to go. Anyway, Demon Hunters could technically wear Mail armor, mail after all is extremely light (lighter, infact, than leather armor would be when I think of it). And, there was a fanpost I read which had a very interesting mechanic, Demon Hunters in their Archerus-like area (say, Black Temple) would be able to "deconstruct" their armor, so that the mail armor (and yes, the post explicitely had DHs use mail armor) would disappear and in it's place the player's model would gain demonic tattoos on that area. I'm personally of the opinion that Demon Hunters should have options for permenant hooves/wings/horns personally, but that's a side issue, besides Mail has always had kilts, plus they could get armor from their Archerus/Peak of Serenity area that appears more like a traditional demon hunter but count as mail. As for a "class slot", I agree that a different class could be more interesting, and I'm sure with Blizz's shine on things it'd be awesome, but I don't think DHs should be tacked onto Warlocks if they don't make the cut for a full class.

Originally Posted by checking facts

EDIT: I'd say monks pretty much killed demon hunters as a class from ever existing. a light armored fast paced melee fighter that uses magic, tanks and beats the shit out of people, and everything. now we have 3 cloth classes and 3 leather classes, and demon hunters niche overlaps way to much with rogues and monks, while their aesthetics and mechanics overlap way too much with warlocks.

unless blizzard wants to retcon the demon hunter class or to completely homogenize the game, they'll either insert demon hunters into the warlock class or no playable demon hunters for us in the foreseeable future.

Easiest answer: Monks use no weapons and martial arts, DHs could be optimised for glaives (like Rogues are for daggers, if they make glaives a weapon type) and use demonic magic, more DoT heavy than Monks are, etc.

Longer answer: While I accept the overlap, I'd have argued that before Wrath you could have said "A plate class that can tank and dps, we've got Warriors and Paladins. An aesthetic that is unholy? We've got Spriests and Warlocks", overlap exists but when you get into specifics you begin to see differences. Mechanics wise I won't go into it since it could literally have ANY mechanic, though. As for aesthetics, I think Aff and Destro warlocks are different enough aesthetically, with or without demons (after all, a Demon Hunter wouldn't use a Demon minion), and Demo has the most overlap but even that's literally ONLY Metamorphosis IMO, maybe Hellfire too. Demo locks don't run up to the boss to melee anymore, and Demon Hunters would probably not cast many spells at range.

I believe that the majority of Warlocks would switch to Demon Hunters like Hunters would switch to Rangers if each of these gets implemented. The harsh truth is that the Hunter and Warlock concepts are a bit outdated and unattractive and become desired through their derivatives. Like most people roll Hunters just because its the only bow wielding class but dislike the trap/pet mechanic, there are tons of others that roll Warlocks due to them being the "dark caster"/ demonic class and not for the sake of minions or DoTs.