2009.10.01 - Workshop 30

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The following is a transcript of the workshop for 1st October 2009.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Scath :) Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza, Pila Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila Pila Mulligan: hi Scath Stim Eliza Yak and Dali Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yak, Dali Scathach Rhiadra: hello Stim, Yakuzza:) Stim Morane: Hi everyone! Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim :) Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya Stim Morane: :) Eliza Madrigal: heheheh Eliza Madrigal: what on earth? Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya :) Gaya Serendipity: Hello :) Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya:) Eliza Madrigal: Or .. er... Eliza Madrigal: :) Pila Mulligan: riding a janitor's brrom ? Stim Morane: a floor sweeper Stim Morane: ? Gaya Serendipity: :P Gaya Serendipity: It's a Halloween freebie. Eliza Madrigal: Like your new name Gaya :) Stim Morane: a, Halloween Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fef, Mick Pila Mulligan: hi Mick Stim Morane: forgot all about it Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone got the bug to be outside of the map somewhere Pila Mulligan: hi Fonzzy Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila Scathach Rhiadra: Hello fefonz, mick Gaya Serendipity: Thanks. Ethaniel is bombarded by a SL server ... can't use it for long. Hope this is temporary but Lindens said they're not sure. Mickorod Renard: hiya Stim Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara Stim Morane: Hi Mickorod Renard: yeaaa,Scath Pila Mulligan: hi Arabella Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara Fefonz Quan: Hey Gaya, Dali, Yaku, Pila, Eliza, Mick, Scath, Ara, and of course - Stim! Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza arabella Ella: Hiya arabella Ella: (rezzing) Mickorod Renard: ;)Dali Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets Gaya Serendipity gave you lotus_lamp. Stim Morane: so, the start of a new month ... Stim Morane: do any of you feel affected by the onset of a new season? arabella Ella: thanks Gaya Stim Morane: thanks, Gaya arabella Ella: yes I do Stim Fefonz Quan: thanks Gaya Gaya Serendipity: Made it :) yw Stim Morane: Would you like to comment, ara? Scathach Rhiadra: :) arabella Ella: well ... it is still summer here arabella Ella: but the weather is gradually changing Stim Morane: I'm asking about being affected by the start of a new season ... arabella Ella: and i somehow feel physical changes in myself too somehow, changes i cannot define which are due to new approaching season arabella Ella: oh not the weather season? Stim Morane: yes, the weather too ... Stim Morane: please go ahead Stim Morane: emotions? Fefonz Quan got it as weather season too arabella Ella: :) Gaya Serendipity: :) arabella Ella: have i misunderstood? Stim Morane: not at all arabella Ella: well it is like a new start but with trepidation ... somehow Mickorod Renard: I see a clarity that disolves after a while Stim Morane: yes to both arabella Ella: perhaps because i prefer warm weather and the possibilities warm weather offers Stim Morane: :) Stim Morane: apprehension? arabella Ella: but the trepidation is there at this time of the year, different from the positive hope in spring Stim Morane: yes arabella Ella: yes apprehension at this time of the year arabella Ella: actually i just dont like november Stim Morane: :) Stim Morane: I don't like the summer Gaya Serendipity nods. Definitely feels different in autumn compared to spring. Stim Morane: yes arabella Ella: it feels a bit like an animal may feel before the hibernation season arabella Ella: instinctive Mickorod Renard: I like the effect i has on the senses Stim Morane: say more, Mick? Stim Morane: clarity? Mickorod Renard: smells..feel,,colours Stim Morane: oh, yes arabella Ella: its also the fact that the days get shorter so there is less light that i feel the way i do Fefonz Quan: i like the shift to warm from sticky hot... arabella Ella: me too Fef! Stim Morane: we're all in the northern hemisphere? Eliza Madrigal nods...and breezy Mickorod Renard: I like the wiping of the slate Stim Morane: Hi Dao Stim Morane: I see Fefonz Quan: indeed Stim :) arabella Ella: hiya Dao Aidan Spiritor: Nova scotia Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao, and Aidan Mickorod Renard: hi Dao Gaya Serendipity: Hello Dao :) Dao Yheng: hi again! Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dao Fefonz Quan: Hey Dao Aidan Spiritor: HIEliza Mickorod Renard: out with the old,,in with the new Stim Morane: Nova Scotia ... definitely some seasonal change to look forward to there. Stim Morane: I ask because we are going to gradually phase from the discussion on codependent arising, to the topic of "naturalness". Aidan Spiritor: Yes; a great time of year Stim Morane: And it's not very realistic to discuss naturalness in the absense of an acknowledgment of natural patterns, and their impact on us human beings. Stim Morane: this too is a codependent arising issue, of course ... but the emphasis is different Stim Morane: we live in a time that is uniquely indifferent to natural cycles and changes, and tries to block them out. arabella Ella: Stim ... if I crash apologies, there is a terrible electric storm here now with horrible thunder and lightening which may cause a power cut Stim Morane: oh, sorry to hear that ... but sounds very dramatic arabella Ella: it is Stim Morane: are you safe there? arabella Ella: yes Stim Morane: :) Stim Morane: ok Aidan Spiritor: codependent arising? Gaya Serendipity: :) arabella Ella: it is just ... again ... an instinctual feeling of danger ... which is only perceived Stim Morane: Aidan, this is a traditional Buddhist topic with loose connections to many other perspectives, including some found in modern science Stim Morane: I was dragged into it, kicking and screaming, and then weaseled out at the earliest opportunity. Eliza Madrigal: :) Stim Morane: Before we ever got to the science part Gaya Serendipity giggles. Aidan Spiritor: I see could you be more specific? Stim Morane: Are you familiar with Buddhist thought? Fefonz Quan: So there is a science part to it? hmmm.... Aidan Spiritor: very much so Gaya Serendipity: We will get to the science part ... I hope slowly but surely ... lots of time right Stim? Stim Morane: If you know about Buddhism, then you probably don't need any snippets on codependent arising from me. Stim Morane: Gaya, the science angle kept being postponed, because I wasn't able to figure out how to say even the basic contemplative part ... still working on that. SL presents many interesting challenges. Stim Morane: Aidan, would you like to describe your own interests and background slightly, so I have a sense of what would be relevant to you? Gaya Serendipity: :) Aidan Spiritor: Mathieu Ricard and HH the Dalai Lama have been looking into the connection to science.. Stim Morane: Yes Stim Morane: I admit I'm not following that line. Stim Morane: I am quite familiar with their conferences, interest in brain scans, etc etc Stim Morane: But I won't be talking about those here. Aidan Spiritor: Yes is that the type of scientific inquiry being referred to here? Stim Morane: There are many different ways of considering possible points of overlap and diffs ... Stim Morane: Aidan, you've raised an important point. Aidan Spiritor: Please say more.. Stim Morane: I'm supposed to be keeping some connection to that, but as I say, it's early days and I'm still learning how to work within SL. Aidan Spiritor: Me tooo Stim Morane: So I will someday manage to bring that part in, but not yet. Stim Morane: :) Mickorod Renard: Ara has crashed Stim Morane: for now, let's consider a gradual transition to "naturalness" as a topic. Stim Morane: oh, thanks, Mick Stim Morane: hopefully she can rejoin us Gaya Serendipity: I saw ... Fefonz Quan: It's good to have something to look forward to :) Stim Morane: :) Gaya Serendipity grins. Stim Morane: Fefonz, you are our spirit guide. Stim Morane: You have to tell us where to go. Stim Morane: :) Stim Morane: Then I get to resist. Gaya Serendipity laughs! Fefonz Quan: i am just following you from a far stim, shouting sometimes "where are we going?" Gaya Serendipity: oh I love WoK session so much. Stim Morane: yes, well I'm wondering the same. Fefonz Quan: (or "show us the way...") Stim Morane: You have to consider, I've been teaching philosophy of science and math, stuff like that, before the dinosaurs ... Fefonz Quan: So you do know what killed them? Stim Morane: Then I was one of the first students in the West of Tibetan Buddhist teachers ... so learned about that and taught under their direction, then later to my own groups Stim Morane: Yes, boredom killed them. Stim Morane: Too much of the same old same old ... you know, millions of years ... Stim Morane: ick Gaya Serendipity is almost crying with laughter ... Fefonz Quan: yes, and no internet around... Stim Morane: Anyway, I'm a dinosaur myself, trying to figure out how to chat in a meaningful way about contemplative theory and practice, and ethics, things that matter in a life/death way, to computer graphics on my little laptop screen ... we dinos are very slow ... Stim Morane: so please bear with me, Fefonz Eliza Madrigal: :) Gaya Serendipity: wb arabella :) arabella Ella: hiya Stim Morane: wb Fefonz Quan prefer bears on Dinosaurs, so sure, i will Aidan Spiritor: Had a suicide in the famiily--it matters..a lot Stim Morane: Aidan ... say more? Stim Morane: if it's not too painful ... Aidan Spiritor: It matters a lot how we think and relate to our minds.. Stim Morane: yes Aidan Spiritor: Confusion can be terrifying--so terrifying that death is less scary than living... Stim Morane: yes ... we can come to see death as the more attractive option. Stim Morane: But I'm trying to encourage people to see difficult and even terrible or tragic things in the context of reality, where the latter is something that needs to be learned, seen afresh, rather than just reduced to something trivial and basically devoid of balm. Stim Morane: I would add another factor, which is that our minds must be restored to their true context, or ground, which is the whole human nature. Stim Morane: Hence my interest in "naturalness". Aidan Spiritor: Hope this isn't tooo much of a downer but it does groungd the conversation in Aidan Spiritor: ground.. Stim Morane: No, I asked you to elaborate, and i meant it Stim Morane: I agree with you Aidan Spiritor: OK thank you.. Stim Morane: I freely admit I'm still fishing for a simpler topic than the ones we've tried so far. Stim Morane: But I'm not looking for something that is immune to life, and the very real tragedies of life Gaya Serendipity: Thank you for sharing Aidan. Stim Morane: Yes Eliza Madrigal nods Fefonz Quan nods Stim Morane: So I'm still open today to discuss bits of codependent arising, which includes everything in our phenomenal realm, including death, but I also want to transition to "naturalness" ... in a natural way. Aidan Spiritor: a loved one is dealing with bi-polar and that certainly tests the edges of ones philosophy--the truth really matters in a practica way when one is BP Stim Morane: Yes ... I have friends with that condition too ... as you can understand, I only see them at intervals ... the rest of the time they are unavailable. Gaya Serendipity: I think the 'ground' Stim mentioned before would be helpful in that sense. Stim Morane: Gaya, would it be a break of my promise to ask you to elaborate? Aidan Spiritor: pls say more.. Gaya Serendipity thinks ... Stim Morane: you can wait and go slowly, if you want ... Stim Morane: I'll just mutter on ... Stim Morane: so anyone who has questions about codependent arising, this and next week, say, are your last chances for a while. Stim Morane: And if anyone has ideas about what they'd like to include re "naturalness", please speak up. Eliza Madrigal: The codependent arising topic seems to have real application to those things too, especially since in BP deals with very dense, stark contrasts... no memory of happiness when sad, etc .. might be helpful to read past transcripts Aidan Gaya Serendipity: It kind of provides a place to come back and one is aware of existence of the place ... that helps. The curves can get less dramatic over the time with various practices that suits individual in my opinion. I know some likes physical activities to bring energy up when one feels down etc. Stim Morane: yes Gaya Serendipity: I have a close family member who suffers from bi-polar so have seen in first hand. Stim Morane: Aidan, see http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/4TranscriptsGaya Serendipity: seen it* Aidan Spiritor: thank you... Stim Morane: not that I would wish reading all that text chat on anyone ... Stim Morane: :) Eliza Madrigal: hah Gaya Serendipity giggles. Stim Morane: so ... codependent arising and naturalness ...? Gaya Serendipity: How are they connected Stim? Stim Morane: Re the latter topic, I'd like to collaboratively shape a 4-week series with all of you ... Stim Morane: Gaya, in one view of codependent arising, the one that Pila so beautifully wrote about, they may be the same. Stim Morane: Would you agree, Pila? Stim Morane: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/3ReportsPila Mulligan: :) thank you Pila Mulligan: (that's a yes) Stim Morane: I have not really covered the possibilities very thoroughly yet, but the Buddhist view of codependent arising is not generally too similar to that of the Taoists, and it's the latter that quite ably summarized. Stim Morane: I am interested in and teach both traditions, and think they complement one another ... but they are quite different in some ways. Stim Morane: We will have to discuss more re that at some point Stim Morane: Anyway, Gaya, the answer is that in the Taoist view, interdependence is central on an energetic, living, dynamic level. Stim Morane: Nature is that way, and so codepend arising is understood along those lines. Gaya Serendipity nods. ok ty :) Stim Morane: The Buddhist view of codependent arising is rather different because it starts with a sense of samsara, and the issues raised by samsara ... encouraging insight into codependent arising is basically an invitation to see the workings of conditioned dharmas, or codependent arising. Stim Morane: Rather than starting by trying to characterize the two traditions in any depth, I think we should start with ourselves, our own lives, families, etc Stim Morane: Hence my question about the seasons, etc Stim Morane: So if it's ok with all of you, could we make a wish list re things to cover concerning "Naturalness"? Pila Mulligan: life and human nature :) Stim Morane: This means: suggest things you'd like to discuss, contribute to, etc Stim Morane: OK, thanks Pila Eliza Madrigal: I'm still not quite clear on naturalness in the sense that you mean it.. but wu wei , which came up before? Stim Morane: I chose this latest topic because I think it could be a good group-presentation topic. Stim Morane: Eliza, it could mean all sorts of things. Stim Morane: For instance, one of you could talk about ways in which the whole notion of naturalness is itself bogus, wrongly conceived, unscientific, etc. Stim Morane: :) Fefonz Quan: looking at the second approach to cod-ar (or even the indra Eliza Madrigal: hehe Stim Morane: OK, thanks Fef Stim Morane: more? Fefonz Quan: 's net wise), it seems hard to draw a line between natural and 'unnatural' Stim Morane: I mean, really, the topic cries out for things on a wide range of levels ... Gaya Serendipity: Things that affect us, make us to adjust to find balance/naturalness? Eliza Madrigal: yes I like the idea of discussion naturalness as spontenaiety Stim Morane: Yes, Fefonz, that is a definite keeper Stim Morane: yes, Gaya Eliza Madrigal: *of Fefonz Quan: somehow it seems like it doesn't leave a lot of room for 'non-natural' Stim Morane: Yes Eliza Stim Morane: keep going :) Fefonz Quan: which is in sharp contrast to our daily inner view Eliza Madrigal: not contriving Stim Morane: e.g., how to walk, how to talk with another person (naturally), digestion, getting old, grieving .... Gaya Serendipity is concerned. Her nickname in RL is 'tree-hugger' >.< Pila Mulligan: well, Fef, let's consider whether genetic modifcation is natural? Stim Morane: yes, Fef Stim Morane: ok Pila, but no politics! Pila Mulligan: sure Stim Morane: I never allow politics in any discussion I'm in ... :) Pila Mulligan: :) Stim Morane: even worse than boredom Eliza Madrigal: :) Stim Morane: dinos hate politics Stim Morane: we just bite or run or sleep Stim Morane: natural Stim Morane: so we have a list growing here ... Fefonz Quan: 'if you can't bit it, bite it' Stim Morane: what else? Eliza Madrigal: authenticity Stim Morane: :) Stim Morane: yes, Eliza, that is one of my favorite topics Stim Morane: and certainly can be discussed in terms on an alleged naturalness Aidan Spiritor: mine tooo Stim Morane: good Fefonz Quan: somehow i feel that we define to easily 'natural' with good, simple, harmonious etc. Stim Morane: I hear from academics I know that it's a false notion ... Eliza Madrigal nods Stim Morane: I'm intrigued to hear that authenticity is false Fefonz Quan: too* easily Eliza Madrigal thinks of authenticity as excavation Stim Morane: yes, Fefonz, we will need to be a bit tough here ... not gloss over stuff Stim Morane: Eliza? Stim Morane: uncovering? Pila Mulligan: it is inauthentic then? Gaya Serendipity: I think different situations require different actions to find the naturalness so ... maybe it's not always about good Fefonz. Stim Morane: Pila? Gaya Serendipity: action ... maybe not quite a right word but you know what I mean. Aidan Spiritor: ACan we trust our instincts to know whether something is natural or not? This does seem to work for most people on the question of authenticity> Pila Mulligan: are the academics saying authenticity is inauthentic Stim Morane: Yes, Aidan, another good question. Stim Morane: Yes, Pila, some are. Pila Mulligan: clever Aidan Spiritor: In what sense? Stim Morane: But then, they want to say there is no such thing as "human nature" too ... Stim Morane: I want to say there is such a thing as human nature. Stim Morane: I would be booted out of academia now if I tried to get back in Eliza Madrigal: Sorry for the pause... just the imagery of arhaeologists.... digging out, dusting off... what's left Gaya Serendipity: I think I have heaps of stuff that I need to clear to find that instinct. Stim Morane: I see Aidan Spiritor: One friend of mine says that you really have it made if you can fake authenticity Stim Morane: well "instinct" is a topic in itself ... we will need to consider where to place it. Stim Morane: interesting, Aidan. Aidan Spiritor: smiles Stim Morane: I would say you really have it made it you HAVE authenticity Gaya Serendipity: I guess intuition is a better word? Stim Morane: OK Stim Morane: another line Stim Morane: we're doing pretty well here ... Aidan Spiritor: Yes taht is what i meant to say thank you Stim Morane: lots of stuff to toss around Stim Morane: oh, thanks Aidan Eliza Madrigal: yes sould be great to discuss intuition Stim Morane: So where should we start? And who would like to start, next week? Gaya Serendipity imagines Stim rubbing his hands in RL ... "lots of presentations that I can sit and enjoy listening to over next few weeks." Pila Mulligan must slip away for a rl moment -- excuse me please (will leave avi listening) Stim Morane: well, I have always admitted being lazy ... Stim Morane: ok, thanks Pila Stim Morane: so, volunteers for next week? Fefonz Quan: Bye Pila (and nice timing ;)) Stim Morane: I really do think this should be a group project this time Eliza Madrigal: hahahah Gaya Serendipity: :) Eliza Madrigal: Well we'd write on the wiki, right... not necessarily give a text 'presentation'> Eliza Madrigal: ? Gaya Serendipity: Or speak? Stim Morane: yes, that would be one approach, Eliza ... but someone could play a presenter role too, or a questioner role ... Stim Morane: lots of models Gaya Serendipity pokes Eliza ... go for it. Stim Morane: your choice Aidan Spiritor: great discussion and wonderful hospitality but i must depart now.... :-( Gaya Serendipity: Enjoy your day Aidan :) Eliza Madrigal: Bye Aidan nice to meet you (my son's name) Stim Morane: But consider ... it's important that everyone contribute actively for "naturalness", because no one can own that topic or claim special access. Stim Morane: Bye Aidan Eliza Madrigal: :) Dao Yheng: Bye Aidan Fefonz Quan: bYE eIDAN Scathach Rhiadra: bye Aidan Eliza Madrigal: I don't mind writing about it but I'm still not quite clear on direction... think my writing would be about the former topic whatever I set out to do Eliza Madrigal: :) Stim Morane: so ... do we have an emphasis and guide for next time? Gaya Serendipity scrolls back ... and finds the list. Stim Morane: yes, we'll have to check it Eliza Madrigal: Stim, weren't you going to give us a jumpstart? an essay? :) Stim Morane: here's a topic for several people to tackle: how to get through the day Gaya Serendipity: I will make the list and email out then tomorrow. Stim Morane: Eliza, I will need to give several people a blurb on "Naturalness" re the wiki, the Kira page, etc but haven't done that yet Stim Morane: I wanted to have this chat first. Eliza Madrigal: oh, okay.. thanks Stim Morane: because i wanted to see if there was general agreement ... it's not for me to dictate a thing like this. Stim Morane: OK? Gaya Serendipity: ok Eliza Madrigal: yes Eliza Madrigal: thank you Stim Morane: thanks for the reminder Stim Morane: I haven't really forgotten ... it's on every To Do list I've made for the past week :) Mickorod Renard: thankyou very much Gaya Serendipity: :) Eliza Madrigal smiles Mickorod Renard: ;) Eliza Madrigal: No, and I don't mean to press... just looked forward to that :) Stim Morane: I like being reminded Stim Morane: so ... time to wind down. Stim Morane: But hopefully we will have a couple specific points or at least points of view for next time Dao Yheng: I don't mean to volunteer myself, but one "presentation" could be a list of things we think are natural vs. thinks we think are not natural? Gaya Serendipity: I just want to say re: Dao's report/question, please feel free to share Dao. Stim Morane: yes, Dao, quite right Gaya Serendipity: One picks up whatever is relevant to oneself ... Eliza Madrigal: yes Stim Morane: Yes, that's right ... we still haven't responded to Dao's question Stim Morane: see http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/3Reports/Dao_Yheng/Report_29Dao Yheng: OK, I'll go for it next time! Stim Morane: well, if that's ok with you ... Stim Morane: it's a good question Gaya Serendipity: Perhaps we can talk about that list Dao mentioned on Sunday? Hopefully we will have Stim's blurb by then. Stim Morane: my blurb will be for public consumption ... it won't be news to anyone here today Stim Morane: I think we need someone or someones to decide to pick up a point from today and run with it Stim Morane: that's the bottom line Stim Morane: much more fun if some of you decided what was most interesting and played with it ... Eliza Madrigal: I will write something... not sure what yet... Stim Morane: OK wonderful Eliza Madrigal: whatever seems natural Stim Morane: :) Gaya Serendipity: :) Eliza Madrigal giggles Stim Morane: it could be a blank page Stim Morane: :) Eliza Madrigal: very well might be Eliza Madrigal: abstract art Stim Morane: fine Gaya Serendipity giggles. Stim Morane: Pila will then provide commentary on that Eliza Madrigal: hehehe Stim Morane: and Fefonz perhaps will lead us forward from there Fefonz Quan: naturally :) Eliza Madrigal: :) Stim Morane: OK, let's see what happens. Stim Morane: Thanks everyone! Gaya Serendipity: :) Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Stim, everyone :) Dao Yheng: thanks! bye! Gaya Serendipity: Thank you Stim and everyone :) Fefonz Quan: Thanks Stim, all :) Mickorod Renard: thankyou Stim Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, thank you Stim Morane: Bye everyone! Mickorod Renard: bye Stim Gaya Serendipity: Do you guys still want the summary? Fefonz Quan: By eStim Eliza Madrigal: yes you have it now? Fefonz Quan: (which summary?) Gaya Serendipity: I will send it by email so ara gets it too. The wishlist Eliza Madrigal: wow gaya, effcient! Great, thanks Mickorod Renard: great Gaya Serendipity: ok :) Gaya Serendipity: Do you think we should ask Stim if he'd like to join us on Sunday btw? Eliza Madrigal: You can ask, but he seems so busy Gaya Serendipity: My impression is he's too busy but well idk Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namasté Eliza Madrigal: yes I'm sure he knows he'd be welcome, but would be nice to make the invitation Gaya Serendipity: Good night Scath :) Eliza Madrigal: Bye Scath, Namaste :)