I'm not trying to change the argument at all, stop making stuff up. Who's being condescending now?

The Anderson-Cleverley situation is so flawed, we were desperately exposed at the back because of it, it would've been punished just as much last night. The standard of our opposition was also poor, that's been pretty widely accepted on here for a while. You just said it yourself (the defending part). Do you think it's ok to be so exposed as long as our attacking football is good? Sounds like Arsenal to me.

We've been ravaged by injuries, but actually midfield has been lesser than other areas. Our defense was far worse off yet still coped. Why? Because there's far more depth to it. In reality it was only Anderson & Cleverley missing for large parts. We had to bring Scholes out of retirement despite having only 2 injured midfielders. Should a club like us not be able to cope with that?

One of the first things you said is that we contolled the midfield once Carrick and Anderson were on. Do you really believe that? We had more of the ball yes, but still not a lot, and they were still creating more opportunities than us. Very little actually changed. I don't think it's justified to say Carrick and Anderson were good based on 20 minutes of football where we were still the worse team.

The likes of Herrera and Martinez were way better than anyone we had in that pitch at anytime last night.

About Jones, do you not think the fact that we had to start him in midfield in the very first place is a prime example of why it's so lacking. An injuries don't really play a part in that seeing as Cleverley was the only one not available (no point in counting Fletcher)

Click to expand...

Our midfield been less ravaged by injuries then other areas? Granted, not as bad as the defence, but at one point we had to play Rafael in midfield. Giggs, Carrick, Anderson, Cleverley and Fletcher were all injuried at the same time, and we've struggeled to field a consistent midfield two for a very long time this season. Now that Carrick have been able to play some games in a row, we've looked so much better.

I do believe that we controlled the midfield when Anderson and Carrick were on. As mentioned earlier, I think this is mainly because we converted to a midfield 3, but I dont think it's hard even for you to admit that we looked alot more composed with Carrick on the pitch.

Right, lets forget about one of the midfielders who are injuried because it doesnt underline the point you're trying to make. Do you really, really think that Cleverley was the only one not available?

Giggs - Started
Scholes - Rested, never going to play so many games in a row
Carrick - Played 90 minutes in nearly every game, obviously rested
Cleverley - Injuried
Anderson - Not played a game for 4 months, never going to start
Fletcher - Ill

So what would you do different? We finally had a chance to rest Scholes and Carrick, and Anderson was never going to get thrown into a game after being out injuried for such a long time.

This entire argument is getting tedious though. We both agree that we could use a midfielder, the only thing we really disagree about is how our actual midfielders performed in the Bilbao-game.

Bottom line: I have no doubt that someone like Martinez would improve our midfield, though in the Bilbao-game, I feel that all of Giggs, Carrick and Anderson gave an encouraging performance and that Jones was given a game due to lack of options.

Our midfield been less ravaged by injuries then other areas? Granted, not as bad as the defence, but at one point we had to play Rafael in midfield. Giggs, Carrick, Anderson, Cleverley and Fletcher were all injuried at the same time, and we've struggeled to field a consistent midfield two for a very long time this season. Now that Carrick have been able to play some games in a row, we've looked so much better.

I do believe that we controlled the midfield when Anderson and Carrick were on. As mentioned earlier, I think this is mainly because we converted to a midfield 3, but I dont think it's hard even for you to admit that we looked alot more composed with Carrick on the pitch.

Right, lets forget about one of the midfielders who are injuried because it doesnt underline the point you're trying to make. Do you really, really think that Cleverley was the only one not available?

Giggs - Started
Scholes - Rested, never going to play so many games in a row
Carrick - Played 90 minutes in nearly every game, obviously rested
Cleverley - Injuried
Anderson - Not played a game for 4 months, never going to start
Fletcher - Ill

So what would you do different? We finally had a chance to rest Scholes and Carrick, and Anderson was never going to get thrown into a game after being out injuried for such a long time.

This entire argument is getting tedious though. We both agree that we could use a midfielder, the only thing we really disagree about is how our actual midfielders performed in the Bilbao-game.

Bottom line: I have no doubt that someone like Martinez would improve our midfield, though in the Bilbao-game, I feel that all of Giggs, Carrick and Anderson gave an encouraging performance and that Jones was given a game due to lack of options.

Click to expand...

Yes, midfield has been less injured. The difference in it and defence? We have far more top defenders and can cope much better.

It's a strange question to ask because I never actually suggested doing anything differently. I was using our choice of a midfield 2 last night as an example of why we need to sign one. Then you start rambling on about how Carrick and Anderson played well for 20 minutes, despite, in the end, agreeing with my point that we need a midfielder? (which by the way, is what this thread is about). Strange.

I do believe that we controlled the midfield when Anderson and Carrick were on. As mentioned earlier, I think this is mainly because we converted to a midfield 3, but I dont think it's hard even for you to admit that we looked alot more composed with Carrick on the pitch.

Click to expand...

Problem with your argument is that you only focus on when we have the ball. By controlling i presume you mean that we kept better possession when we had it. Unfortunately our problem all game was when Bilbao had the ball. Whenever Bilbao had the ball they cut through us with clever running and quick crisp passing and we simply could not cope with it.

You need organisation, communication and discipline to have any control when your opponent has the ball. We had no marginally better control when Carrick came on, but nowhere near enough to claim we were at any time the better team.

Bottom line: I have no doubt that someone like Martinez would improve our midfield, though in the Bilbao-game, I feel that all of Giggs, Carrick and Anderson gave an encouraging performance and that Jones was given a game due to lack of options.

Click to expand...

It's not the personnel so much as the set up. Carrick has to play alongside Jones to give stability, and Giggs or Park then has licence to get forward as well as help out. Without the reassurance Carrick brings we are vulnerable, and have been all season. You cannot praise the midfield's performance when we have the ball, and ignore their ineffectiveness when we didn't. You are only judging them on half their job. We were well beaten because we were not good enough defensively when they had the ball.

We've been unlucky with injuries and Fletcher's illness. In another world we would have had him, Anderson and Cleverley for most of the season, while in reality Cleverley has not been a factor since September, while Anderson and Fletcher went off the rader a while later. It could have been very different.

But looking at what we knew, maybe we weren't that unlucky. We knew there was a problem with Fletcher, we knew Anderson struggles for fitness, we knew we can't rely on Giggs all that much. The one unknown was Cleverley, but overall I'd say we went into the season with quite a few questions marks. Well, we got our responses, I guess.

We've been unlucky with injuries and Fletcher's illness. In another world we would have had him, Anderson and Cleverley for most of the season, while in reality Cleverley has not been a factor since September, while Anderson and Fletcher went off the rader a while later. It could have been very different.

But looking at what we knew, maybe we weren't that unlucky. We knew there was a problem with Fletcher, we knew Anderson struggles for fitness, we knew we can't rely on Giggs all that much. The one unknown was Cleverley, but overall I'd say we went into the season with quite a few questions marks. Well, we got our responses, I guess.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Anderson spends a lot of time injured every season sadly. And as you say, we knew about Fletcher's illness before hand. So to be in a position where we have one defensively capable central midfielder in ours squad is our own fault. Hopefully it doesn't cost us.

We've been unlucky with injuries and Fletcher's illness. In another world we would have had him, Anderson and Cleverley for most of the season, while in reality Cleverley has not been a factor since September, while Anderson and Fletcher went off the rader a while later. It could have been very different.

But looking at what we knew, maybe we weren't that unlucky. We knew there was a problem with Fletcher, we knew Anderson struggles for fitness, we knew we can't rely on Giggs all that much. The one unknown was Cleverley, but overall I'd say we went into the season with quite a few questions marks. Well, we got our responses, I guess.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately Tom has been injured at every club he has played for Leicester, Watford and Wigan now us. Don't know if you can call that unlucky. He will be great for us, but all the injuries were long-term. I wouldn't be putting all our hopes on him.

Unfortunately Tom has been injured at every club he has played for Leicester, Watford and Wigan now us. Don't know if you can call that unlucky. He will be great for us, but all the injuries were long-term. I wouldn't be putting all our hopes on him.

Click to expand...

His and ando's injuries are frustrating and are not helping our cause, but at least we still have Scholes and giggs. Carrick is another matter entirely. He is going to need protecting a lot, as we have no other effective defensive minded player for midfield. But whenever we do try and rest him we look very vulnerable through the middle, because we have nobody effective to come in for him.

My concern is we are having to rotate our midfield much more than we probably should, due to injuries, age and lack of cover for Carrick. That put's us in a position where we cannot always play who we would like to in consecutive matches. Hopefully we will get away with it till summer, but i dread the thought of losing Carrick for any length of time up until then.

If we only make one signing this summer imo our top priority should be cover for Carrick. It is our most obvious and potentially damaging weakness and needs to be addressed asap.

His and ando's injuries are frustrating and are not helping our cause, but at least we still have Scholes and giggs. Carrick is another matter entirely. He is going to need protecting a lot, as we have no other effective defensive minded player for midfield. But whenever we do try and rest him we look very vulnerable through the middle, because we have nobody effective to come in for him.

My concern is we are having to rotate our midfield much more than we probably should, due to injuries, age and lack of cover for Carrick. That put's us in a position where we cannot always play who we would like to in consecutive matches. Hopefully we will get away with it till summer, but i dread the thought of losing Carrick for any length of time up until then.

If we only make one signing this summer imo our top priority should be cover for Carrick. It is our most obvious and potentially damaging weakness and needs to be addressed asap.

Click to expand...

You have made a good point there, we are having to rotate more. Anderson and Clev always injured. Scholes and Giggs can't play every game. I worry that Scholes will stay on and cannot play a full season. Maybe he will need to retire at the end of the season again and come out of retirement in January. Not being able to last the full season is one of the reasons he retired.

The problem is we just can't add and add. Whether it's about payroll or simple sporting issues. Because we do (did) have Fletcher, Anderson, Cleverley, Giggs, and of course Carrick (not sure if we also saw Jones as a strong midfield option in the summer). Yeah, we can see Giggs as part time (because he can't play game after game), but we can we see Anderson and Cleverley as 'part timers' and assume they'll miss long periods so we'll need extra bodies? Not sure it's possible to work that may. So it might be about replacing rather than adding. Someone may have to go.

Problem is, will anyone be going? Scholes was supposed to be 'it' last summer, clearing a spot, but the addition we ended up making was from within. We've waited for Hargreaves, I can't see us not waiting on Fletcher. Cleverley, certainly not. Giggs is staying, I reckon Scholes will too. Will we terminate our attempts to turn Anderson into a consistent performer? I doubt it. So it's not an easy decision. But one that has to be made.

The problem is we just can't add and add. Whether it's about payroll or simple sporting issues. Because we do (did) have Fletcher, Anderson, Cleverley, Giggs, and of course Carrick (not sure if we also saw Jones as a strong midfield option in the summer). Yeah, we can see Giggs as part time (because he can't play game after game), but we can we see Anderson and Cleverley as 'part timers' and assume they'll miss long periods so we'll need extra bodies? Not sure it's possible to work that may. So it might be about replacing rather than adding. Someone may have to go.

Problem is, will anyone be going? Scholes was supposed to be 'it' last summer, clearing a spot, but the addition we ended up making was from within. We've waited for Hargreaves, I can't see us not waiting on Fletcher. Cleverley, certainly not. Giggs is staying, I reckon Scholes will too. Will we terminate our attempts to turn Anderson into a consistent performer? I doubt it. So it's not an easy decision. But one that has to be made.

Click to expand...

Agree with this. It's a big disadvantage of having two very capable players who due to age cannot play every week(like Carrick does). When it is coupled with having long term injured players(alla Fletcher) and injury prone players(alla Anderson) it's a bigger problem.

I think it's to early to put Cleverley in the injury prone bracket, his appearance record for Watford was actually good. He had a few injuries at Wigan but had a good run in the second second half of the season. All he has had with United is one bad injury which we don't seem to have treated correctly.

Anderson is the one I would probably be looking to ship out if it was needed to bring in a new player. It's a real shame he has not progressed his obvious talent and there is no doubt the injuries have been a big factor in that but out of that group of players, he's the one I would probably dispense with. However, Anderson has a habit of returning to the first team and reminding me what a good player he can be when fit and how good he could be if he could STAY fit so I'm not completely sure.

Also think we could bring in another midfielder due to the ages of Giggs and Scholes. Looking at whether another needs to be replaced is down to whether we want to bring in two new players ready for the first team this summer.

The problem is we just can't add and add. Whether it's about payroll or simple sporting issues. Because we do (did) have Fletcher, Anderson, Cleverley, Giggs, and of course Carrick (not sure if we also saw Jones as a strong midfield option in the summer). Yeah, we can see Giggs as part time (because he can't play game after game), but we can we see Anderson and Cleverley as 'part timers' and assume they'll miss long periods so we'll need extra bodies? Not sure it's possible to work that may. So it might be about replacing rather than adding. Someone may have to go.

Problem is, will anyone be going? Scholes was supposed to be 'it' last summer, clearing a spot, but the addition we ended up making was from within. We've waited for Hargreaves, I can't see us not waiting on Fletcher. Cleverley, certainly not. Giggs is staying, I reckon Scholes will too. Will we terminate our attempts to turn Anderson into a consistent performer? I doubt it. So it's not an easy decision. But one that has to be made.

Click to expand...

Add and add? We have one defense minded central midfielder. That's ridiculous. And you don't use a players illness as an excuse not to add. If anything it is a reason to add. The clubs interest comes before any individual. Fletcher's situation is unfortunate and all but waiting and pinning our hopes on him getting back to his best very soon would be silly.

The problem is we just can't add and add. Whether it's about payroll or simple sporting issues. Because we do (did) have Fletcher, Anderson, Cleverley, Giggs, and of course Carrick (not sure if we also saw Jones as a strong midfield option in the summer). Yeah, we can see Giggs as part time (because he can't play game after game), but we can we see Anderson and Cleverley as 'part timers' and assume they'll miss long periods so we'll need extra bodies? Not sure it's possible to work that may. So it might be about replacing rather than adding. Someone may have to go.

Problem is, will anyone be going? Scholes was supposed to be 'it' last summer, clearing a spot, but the addition we ended up making was from within. We've waited for Hargreaves, I can't see us not waiting on Fletcher. Cleverley, certainly not. Giggs is staying, I reckon Scholes will too. Will we terminate our attempts to turn Anderson into a consistent performer? I doubt it. So it's not an easy decision. But one that has to be made.

Click to expand...

You've got a point. However with the 25 player rule you've got to be ruthless. Many questions must be asked. Is it worth to keep 2 strikers that rarely feature in the team (Owen and Berba)? Is it worth to keep a player that only adds workrate to the team (Park) in a football world were ball possession and the delivery of the ball is key? Is it worth to keep so many injury prone midfielders? Is it worth keeping two 38 yrs old if that means not adding any more CMs? Is Fletcher going to be really available next season (or is it going to be the Hargreaves type of return)?

I think Andersons time has run out, personally. I would be in favour of ditching him and probably Park (who I like and think has been a great servant for the club over the years) and investing in some true quality like Modric, who can cover in midfield or out wide (to replace Park) or play in the hole, as cover for Rooney - he ticks all the boxes.

I do feel though that that may not be enough by itself. If Scholes retires for good this time, and Giggs surely can't go on much longer, not to mention Fletcher with whom I feel we need to make a decision unfortunately (ie if he isn't going to be able to play next season, realistically we need to bring in someone else or we are already a man down). A Martinez type player would do the job nicely, leaving us with something like; Carrick, Modric, Martinez, Cleverley as the four primary CMs, with others able to cover when needed like Giggs, Jones and if he ends up staying, Pogba.

In other areas, the introduction of Modric (who can play the Rooney role, allowing the latter to move up top when needed) should also eliminate the need for a new striker. We can offload Berbatov and Owen to cut the wage bill down, maybe Macheda too.

I think Andersons time has run out, personally. I would be in favour of ditching him and probably Park (who I like and think has been a great servant for the club over the years) and investing in some true quality like Modric, who can cover in midfield or out wide (to replace Park) or play in the hole, as cover for Rooney - he ticks all the boxes.

I do feel though that that may not be enough by itself. If Scholes retires for good this time, and Giggs surely can't go on much longer, not to mention Fletcher with whom I feel we need to make a decision unfortunately (ie if he isn't going to be able to play next season, realistically we need to bring in someone else or we are already a man down). A Martinez type player would do the job nicely, leaving us with something like; Carrick, Modric, Martinez, Cleverley as the four primary CMs, with others able to cover when needed like Giggs and Jones.

We do need some midfield enforcements. Personally if fletcher was fit and back go his best I think he and carrick would be an excellent partnership and both are quite reliable in the senders of being match fit. In that situation I don't think midfield would be such as issue but given the extent of fletchers illness we need 2 midfielders I would say.

I want to give ando more time but at the end of of the day he's just too injury prone. He'll never improve without more consistent runs in the team but he doesn't seen capable of staying fit. As some of said the fact that we have a scholes and giggs who can't play every game is an issue, if we didn't have one of them we could sign someone else and let ando be a bit of an injury liability. It's more about scholes though. Giggs I feel is still very physically capable and honestly is still one of our best players and easily one of the best centre mids around in the league, he might give the ball away sometimes but that's not down to age but his style. Scholes though obviously suffers from his lack of stamina and pace more. However he's still a lot better than ando an his ability to destroy teams that stand of make him a good asset.

So yeah I guess if we need to clear the payroll to make room for reinforcements than ando is top of the midfield list to go. I agree about park going as well. With our three main wingers now not only be quality going forward but also very good coming back I feel park has less to offer. I think his role as fourth choice winger can be covered by either changing formation, or putting welbeck or say a twin wide.

In terms of who I would sign well I wouldn't want a pure defensive midfielder but either a player similar to carrick or a box to box player like fletch. The other one would need to be a creative one. Who is much harder to say. Though it does depend on how the club assess fletcher and cleverley in terms of reliability next season. If they think fletcher can come back strongly and that clev isn't really injury prone but unfortunate than maybe we need just one midfielder if not than we need two. I do think our midfielders that we have are a better collection than they are credited for and without the injuries not only in midfield but at the back as well it wouldn't get the stick it does. But we do have re-occurring injuries there and we have a lack of midfielders who are reliable, fully physically capable and are quality.

I was thinking that we need someone in front of Carrick who can play 40 games a season.

I like both Anderson & Cleverly but between them they would struggle to play that many games. Maybe Pogba is the man for the job, if his contract is sorted out.

Otherwise who?

Click to expand...

Problem with Pogba though is he clearly isn't ready yet. Regardless of whether he stays or not the fact that he's not even made it to but part this season tells me he has some development to do. We can't just go in to next season with him as our other midfielder whos capable of playing every game etc. next season if he's still here he'd have to be eased in and that's still only if he's ready for that. With fletch a doubt we definitely need someone who can come in. Be it Martinez, cabaye etc. gylfi siggurdon on loan at Swansea is an interesting young player. I'm sure with the clubs scouting network they're aware or more players than we are.

Add and add? We have one defense minded central midfielder. That's ridiculous. And you don't use a players illness as an excuse not to add. If anything it is a reason to add. The clubs interest comes before any individual. Fletcher's situation is unfortunate and all but waiting and pinning our hopes on him getting back to his best very soon would be silly.

Click to expand...

I fully agree we shouldn't have to wait. Having said that, I can see us doing it. We've waited for Hargreaves, didn't we?

We're always careful about adding players to fill a spot if we think we already have someone who may return and do that job himself. It makes sense, although sometimes I think we're a little too careful. At times you have to make the decisions that will make an immediate difference. But our loyalty to our players means we don't rush to get replacements while they are still here.

As things stand, I think we must be ruthless in the summer. The whole team is suffering from the total lack of consistency of our midfield. That's the one area in the team we can really improve by quite a bit. Whether it's acting as if Fletcher isn't coming back - unless we 100% know he is - or letting go of a player.

We've waited and waited for what we already have to sort out our midfield. Well, between Cleverley and Anderson in the first few matches, Carrick's form since he started playing regularly again around November and Scholes's spark after his comeback, I feel it's been better than last season. But still not good enough, and not that likely to just improve by itself.

I was of the thought that we didn't need one last summer but with Giggs another year older and Fletcher's illness unfolding (plus the loss of future potential in Morrison) then I can't see us not reinforcing. If we think Fletcher can recover then just the one will do for me, if not then we'll probably need two.

I was of the thought that we didn't need one last summer but with Giggs another year older and Fletcher's illness unfolding (plus the loss of future potential in Morrison) then I can't see us not reinforcing. If we think Fletcher can recover then just the one will do for me, if not then we'll probably need two.

Click to expand...

I was sort of like you in that way. I would've liked us to sign a top quality midfielder, but I was fine with it when we didn't, and I certainly wasn't part of the new midfielder brigade or Sneijder brigade that apparently existed on here back then.

I'm actually still the same in a way. I want us to sign a new midfielder, however I wouldn't be too concerned if we didn't and I'd put faith in our current midfield. Still, I do want a new midfielder more now than I did at the end of last season.