They need to just remove the stacks entirely, buff Frostbolt to compensate (which also buffs the Mastery further), buff Brain Freeze as compensation of losing old Masteries, make this new thing only proc from FB/FFB or FB/Wellybolt, not all three or we'll stack them up way too quickly.

I really want to know if we're expected to cast non-FoF'd IL in PvE now.

At first glance, it looks like you might need to cast a non-FoF Ice Lance if you're at 5 Icicles and don't have an FoF proc. As the damage in the Icicles is "stored" from FB/FFB/WB, the damage that's stored in the Icicles will be the same amount regardless of whether that extra damage is attached to a FoF or a non-FoF Ice Lance.

At first glance, it looks like you might need to cast a non-FoF Ice Lance if you're at 5 Icicles and don't have an FoF proc. As the damage in the Icicles is "stored" from FB/FFB/WB, the damage that's stored in the Icicles will be the same amount regardless of whether that extra damage is attached to a FoF or a non-FoF Ice Lance.

So we should still use FoF instantly if we have two, and probably save it if we only have one for as close to 5 stacks as possible.

So we should still use FoF instantly if we have two, and probably save it if we only have one for as close to 5 stacks as possible.

The annoying thing will be tracking our stupid Wellybolts :\

That's gonna be a nightmare. The more I think about this new Mastery, the more I hate it. Guess we will see what it feels like when the new build goes up. It just doesn't sound like my cup of tea, which I suppose isn't the end of the world since I haven't spent a lot of time as Frost this expansion anyway.

I wonder how all these icicles will look like when present and when shot. My mind draws a pretty nice picture of 8 slightly differently tinted Ice Lances from slightly different angles with various delay times (3x due to IV glyph + 5 from stacked mastery). =) An interesting mechanic!

Also I don't see any reason for storing them in order to get 5 stacks, maybe for PVP burst... Otherwise you just cast FoF IL as soon as you normally would and gain additional damage from the icicles, whether there are 2 or 5 of them.

Originally Posted by Polarthief

- Elemental Familiars (Summons a random Fire, Water, or Nature familiar. Familiars of different types have a tendency to fight each other) [??]

I'm thinking of a trinket procced shatter in PvP with 5 icicles and a Lance right after a Frostbolt. Perhaps trying to bring the pvp burst back up to par since they got rid of the mastery frozen dmg? 7 spells in one deep is a little scary.

That's gonna be a nightmare. The more I think about this new Mastery, the more I hate it. Guess we will see what it feels like when the new build goes up. It just doesn't sound like my cup of tea, which I suppose isn't the end of the world since I haven't spent a lot of time as Frost this expansion anyway.

Feels like another case of L90 talents.

Imagine trying to manage the 5 stacks effectively with the large amount of Haste we have.

Has anyone tried Elemental Shaman? It's a 60% chance to get ONE STACK (up to 6 total since you always start at "1") of Lightning Shield from Lightning Bolt, and you cast Earth Shock at 6 or 7 (Can gain 2 from Mastery, and a VERY UNLIKELY 3 with Echo of the Elements). We get one stack EVERY TIME we use FFB, FB, or our Welly hits. Fulmination isn't really that bad at all, but this Icicle shit will be like that on crack, especially during Heroism/Time Warp and Meta procs (so all the fucking time).

Seems like Frost really won't be viable til 6.0, but this is, of course, a premature conclusion. PTR isn't done, but hopefully they use their noggins and realize this is a really shit QoL reduce.

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Originally Posted by royals

I'm thinking of a trinket procced shatter in PvP with 5 icicles and a Lance right after a Frostbolt. Perhaps trying to bring the pvp burst back up to par since they got rid of the mastery frozen dmg? 7 spells in one deep is a little scary.

Now if the Icicles can crit (and therefore, benefit from Shatter), that'd actually make me rethink my feelings towards it. Usually %based damage (e.g., Ignite) is hard-locked to not being allowed to Crit. IIRC, the Icy Boulder from our 4P T16 is incapable of critting as well, so I would be extremely shocked if Icicles could crit.

Also, while unimportant (as this is a personal/aesthetic thing), I really, REALLY hope the icicles will float near our heads/bodies and be flung FROM WHERE THEY ARE when they are "used" (e.g. Irelia style on League of Legends or pretty much from ANY action/ninja anime ever created). Would bring quite a bit of flair back to the Mage class as I envision it looking awesome. (I'm willing to bet it won't be nearly as cool as I am hoping)

Imagine trying to manage the 5 stacks effectively with the large amount of Haste we have.

Why do you think they need to be managed? You can cast FoFIL with less than 5 stacks no problem. If there is no procs, then you lose some damage, yes, but I highly doubt it'll be viable to cast non-FoF IL just due to stacks. Besides maybe mastery will scale so good there won't be a need to cap haste anymore.

Another source of instant cast damage for frost? Just what they needed!@ /troll

Really though water ele bolt shouldn't be included. I can see some really awkward behavior going on where you stop casting on your ele during procs to stack your icicles higher if they scale based on the damage your fb/ffb did in pvp anyways.

Also might tip the scale on the icy veins glyph depending on how it all adds up going against their ideal of glyphs not being damage increases but who am I kidding that isn't even applied to mage glyphs as it is.

Why do you think they need to be managed? You can cast FoFIL with less than 5 stacks no problem. If there is no procs, then you lose some damage, yes, but I highly doubt it'll be viable to cast non-FoF IL just due to stacks. Besides maybe mastery will scale so good there won't be a need to cap haste anymore.

I'm saying it'd be better to sit on one FoF if you're not capped on Icicles.

I HIGHLY doubt the Mastery will scale that much. The base atm is 1.5% per Mastery (equating to 7% at 5 stacks, those stacks all varying based on what spells were cased)

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Originally Posted by Turkey One

Another source of instant cast damage for frost? Just what they needed!@ /troll

Really though water ele bolt shouldn't be included. I can see something really awkward behavior going on where you stop casting on your ele during procs to stack your icicles higher if they scale based on the damage your fb/ffb did.

Kinda how I feel. It should only be FB/FFB at this point. Welly shouldn't be involved in any more than it already is.

Remember when they removed Freeze from being used on bosses? Why are they adding more fucking functionality?

I HIGHLY doubt the Mastery will scale that much. The base atm is 1.5% per Mastery (equating to 7% at 5 stacks, those stacks all varying based on what spells were cased)

But it would solve scaling issues for Frost, wouldn't it? So maybe Blizz will go for it. Won't compensate Fb and BFFFB for previous mastery loss and previous iteration of stacking debuff, but make mastery really good. Then people stack mastery and still have haste as a really good stat and a shatter-boosted crit with a reachable cap.

About holding on 1 FoF, I think we'll have to do it anyway due to 2p set bonus which makes the next frost spell do 20% more dmg after casting BFFFB.

But it would solve scaling issues for Frost, wouldn't it? So maybe Blizz will go for it. Won't compensate Fb and BFFFB for previous mastery loss and previous iteration of stacking debuff, but make mastery really good. Then people stack mastery and still have haste as a really good stat and a shatter-boosted crit with a reachable cap.

About holding on 1 FoF, I think we'll have to do it anyway due to 2p set bonus which makes the next frost spell do 20% more dmg after casting BFFFB.

No, we'd still have a bit of a scaling issue (wouldn't affect it at all UNLESS Mastery becomes our best stat, otherwise, we'll still soft-cap Haste and then rush Mastery), in addition to still having the target switching problems of Frostbolt debuffs.

Which is counter-intuitive to saving globals for Icicles (unless it includes Icicles too); now we have to save it for a BF instead.

Really curious about how Icicle works and what it can/can't do (e.g., can it crit? Does it benefit from shatter? Why does Wellybolt proc it as well?)

No, we'd still have a bit of a scaling issue (wouldn't affect it at all UNLESS Mastery becomes our best stat, otherwise, we'll still soft-cap Haste and then rush Mastery), in addition to still having the target switching problems of Frostbolt debuffs.

Which is counter-intuitive to saving globals for Icicles (unless it includes Icicles too); now we have to save it for a BF instead.

Really curious about how Icicle works and what it can/can't do (e.g., can it crit? Does it benefit from shatter? Why does Wellybolt proc it as well?)

We should be able to click on the icicles and surf on them. That'd be sweet.

Or an off-the-GCD spell that lets us fling them whenever we please, that can also be cast mid-cast Frostbolt (or any other cast-time spell so we can Deeps while we Evocate)

Btw, will do some testing once this build goes live (well, live on the PTR >_>), whenever the hell that is. Will post the random stuff only weird people like me care about (e.g., functionality/weird shit, and MAYBE some numbers, but someone will probably beat me to the numbers part)

I think i still like the old Frostburn better - fun, easy to understand and thematically fitting.
This new version sounds a little bit like Frost Ignite.
At first i imagined something like a potent Icelance you had to charge up with Frostbolt - but it sounds more like carrying a turret around.
Timing a good Icicle with Frostbomb and a shattercombo might provide some fun, skill demanding gameplay. I think i would have like it better if the icicles could crit (and the charge up`s was static) so you could time them with freezes.
Looking foreward to test it though.

The Icicles have no GCD, but they are affected by haste. At 0 haste 5 stacks are "fired" in 5s but in 2,5s @ 50% haste. You don´t ever need to cast a non FoF IL, because 1 of the Icicles (the oldest) launches by itself if you have 5 stacks and you gain a sixth. They don´t crit (like ignite)