First GOP Debate - Who won?

Those Democrats who argued that the killing of Usama bin Laden would shield President Obama from political attacks saw in the first presidential debate of the season that Republicans wont be abashed about going after Obama, even on foreign policy.

Perhaps it was because Obama himself is participating in an extended victory lap after ordering the mission that killed bin Laden, but Republicans seemed to have no qualms about going after the commander in chief so soon after the greatest triumph of his presidency.

As former Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty put it: He did a good job and I tip my cap to him, but that moment is not the sum total of American foreign policy.

The Republican presidential nominating process got off to a rollicking start Thursday in Greenville, S.C. The crowd at the FOX News/South Carolina GOP event heard about everything from bin Ladens death to heroin legalization; global warming to reality TV.

From my perspective Ron Paul 'won' on the issues, but that' because I tend to agree with his positions. If I had to pick one candidate who gained the most politically from this venue, it would no doubt be Herman Cain... Definitely a strong figure who has the potential to make a serious dent in the 90%+ Obama approval rating of blacks. Although I'm sure he'll have to deal with a wide variety of liberals or those in the NAACP and similar organizations saying he's an 'uncle tom' or the like.

Listening to Ron Paul point out the hypocrisy of other Republicans and essentially get the entire South Carolina (generally very socially conservative) audience to applaud legalizing things like heroin was absolutely astounding. His position as the 'godfather of the Tea Party' is going to be a HUGE asset to him in the upcoming months. I anticipate that if he can keep his energy up and keep his answers short, to the point, and philosophical, he'll really surprise some people come caucus/primary season.

Ron Paul tends to poll well at the early events, but he always runs out of steam when the "neo-cons" and their corporate money spend him into oblivion. Can he raise enough money to compete, and can he survive all the skeletons in his closet?

Ron Paul tends to poll well at the early events, but he always runs out of steam when the "neo-cons" and their corporate money spend him into oblivion. Can he raise enough money to compete, and can he survive all the skeletons in his closet?

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He has no skeletons in his closet. The best I've seen anyone try and come up with is that at some point, like 20 years ago, there was a newsletter published in his name where someone (not Ron) posted a few articles that had racist overtones. There's zero evidence he was involved at all, there's zero facts that support the argument that would carry any weight in a court of law, and the implications that he's a racist directly and specifically contradict his well established views on individuals, individual liberty, and the constitution/declaration relating to valuing all humans equally, etc.

Any attack in that regard is quite simply, baseless fear-mongering by politically motivated partisan hacks.

Here's all you need to know about Ron Paul:
He voted against the Patriot Act.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He voted against the Iraq war.
He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.

He's a true small-government conservative who's equally against the warfare state and the welfare state. He actually believes in the constitution and that liberty should be protected at all costs. There are several people in congress now who talk his talk, but none have years and years of record to prove they walk the walk.

Who cares? None of them are going to be President, and the chances are reasonably good that none of the participants will even be the GOP sacrificial lamb, err, nominee.

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You sound like the Republicans in 1991-92.

Believe me, given the financial crisis, the fact that we're in 3 wars abroad, unemployment higher last month than the 8 months prior, a transformative healthcare bill passed, there's a TON of potential for a right wing White House contender. Anyone who says Obama is unbeatable doesn't understand politics. That being said, Obama is very likeable, very charismatic. He will be hard to beat.

1) It's way early to make any predictions.
2) It will be interesting to see how far right these guys will need to swing to secure the "base" and win the party nomination.
3) Whoever wins the Republican nomination will have to swing back towards the center to capture the independent vote.

Any attack in that regard is quite simply, baseless fear-mongering by politically motivated partisan hacks.

Here's all you need to know about Ron Paul:
He voted against the Patriot Act.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He voted against the Iraq war.
He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.

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So the only budget he voted for was Bill Clinton's?
Did he refuse the pay raises?
How could he not raise taxes and still vote for balanced budgets? Either he voted for no budgets or Bill Clinton's, right? If none, then he goes to DC and does what? Obstructs? That could easily be a target for attack, right?
He has happily included earmarks in legislation he knew was going to pass.
As for the power of the executive branch, what was his position on the Dick Cheney secrety energy meetings and exercise of executive privilege? I don't remember.

While I agree Ron Paul talks a good game, he has skeletons in his closet that are easily far more serious than the crap Karl Rove and the right-wing slimebags used against Dukakis, Clinton, Kerry, Gore and now Obama.

You can't possibly think that his racist newsletters and his stance on the civil rights act are smaller targets than the President's citizenship?

Believe me, given the financial crisis, the fact that we're in 3 wars abroad, unemployment higher last month than the 8 months prior, a transformative healthcare bill passed, there's a TON of potential for a right wing White House contender. Anyone who says Obama is unbeatable doesn't understand politics. That being said, Obama is very likeable, very charismatic. He will be hard to beat.

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I would bet a LOT that I have just a bit more experience in politics than you do . . .

The chances of a GOP candidate beating Obama in 2012, evaluated today, are slim. The economy is improving, there has been a significant victory in the "war on terror," and he has already started fundraising--and in an unusual twist will is projected to substantially outraise any of the GOP candidates.

He would eliminate many federal government agencies, such as the U.S. Department of Education, the U.S. Department of Energy, the U.S. Department of Commerce, the US Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Homeland Security, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), the Interstate Commerce Commission and the Internal Revenue Service, calling them "unnecessary bureaucracies."

During the 2011 CPAC conference, he said he would support a flat income tax of 10 % at 19:23 of that speech. A citizen would be able to opt out of all government involvement if they simply pay a 10 % income tax.

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I.E. citizens pay nothing and the government does nothing.
Everyone fends for themselves.
The guy is nuts.

You underestimate the ability of the U.S. electorate to completely mess things up.

The pessimist in me agrees with Paul Simon in 1968:

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Oh no- I'm not lazy at all. I know we have to fight the stupid. We definitely cannot rest on our laurels.

It probably feels that way in Florida. Lots of idiots in that state. Do yourself a favor, and start believing in yourself and your neighbors. Talk to them. Tell them why you think things need to change. Organize and fight. Do not think for one minute that you are powerless.

Conservatives want to divide and conquer, and they're very good at that. Don't let them do it. Stand together and stand strong. Work together and they will never win.

These jackasses have convinced us all that we have no one to rely on but ourselves. That's a load of crap. We are all part of a team. Some of us are stronger at times and weaker at others. The moment we throw our weaker teammates to the dogs is when we lose. Because quite honestly, everyone has a strength that helps the team. There is a place for everyone to shine.

Some of us are good at math, some science, some art, some sports. And you know what? All of us fall down at some point.

Right now, none of us want to help anyone else get up. You know why? Because we can't. That ability is being taken away from us. All we can do is take care of our own homes because any social safety net has been taken away because a few abuse the system, and conservatives tell us that there should be no safety net because a few abuse it.

Don't listen to them. We are still a team. We all still have a place and we all deserve to shine. Let's work together and make this country a great place where people not only do well as individuals, but help others become great as well. We can accomplish much more together than we can apart.

When I moved to Chicago in 1992, there was a slogan written on all the L trains, "I Will". Coming from Ohio, where everyone said I was crazy to move to the city and I would end up in the gutter, that was a refreshing sentiment. What I discovered is that there were so many people in this city willing to help me do what I wanted. Chicago is very team oriented. Everyone has value and everyone can make a difference. Find your strength and use it. Someone will be there to help you. Conservatives don't like this at all. If you can't do it all by yourself, then you are worthless. That is their motto. That's how they conquered Ohio and made people feel alone and worthless.

Well, I say **** that BS. United we stand. When we work together, we can make miracles happen. No one person can do anything alone- not even Steve Jobs or Bill Gates (and they will admit this).

I'm tired of this conservative propaganda that says everyone has to work alone. It's counter-productive. The force of one has nothing against the force of many. Teamwork is the best weapon against prejudice there is.

Do not let these idiots defeat us. There are more of us than them. Let's work together to make this country great. We can do it. But no one person can do it alone.

Conservatives are really big on "rugged individualism" (read: I got mine, and the hell with you). And they try to portray the "team" concept that lee is talking about as a faceless, mindless dystopia, but really what lee's talking about is something that is neither selfish nor dystopic. It's a connectedness that says I can be me without having to put you down. It's a connection that says we all have different abilities and talents, and that while we can do great things by and for ourselves, we can also do great things together.

And that is the basis for most if not all liberal/progressive thought. Also the core of pretty much everything conservatives hate.

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