Eh, that's my experience. If you want a good weapon to drop from enemies you're going to need a high level foe- a boss of some kind- that also uses weapons and uses your specific weapon, and felt it was worth investing in another + on the weapon rather than a few other weapon types and backups.

Your mileage may vary, but I don't like relying on luck to get my weapons. If I'm a paladin or ranger, I can just make my own. :P

Eh, that's my experience. If you want a good weapon to drop from enemies you're going to need a high level foe- a boss of some kind- that also uses weapons and uses your specific weapon, and felt it was worth investing in another + on the weapon rather than a few other weapon types and backups.

Your mileage may vary, but I don't like relying on luck to get my weapons. If I'm a paladin or ranger, I can just make my own. :P

I suppose. It's a much more limited, expensive option for a fighter unfortunately- Master Craftsman kinda blows, since you spend two feats (two of your general feats even) to get less than the benefit of a single feat for a casting class.

The last fighter I played was actually an archery fighter with a few levels in alchemist that took craft wondrous item (DM interpreted alchemists as having a caster level, before anyone sounds off), and we had a wizard in the party with craft magic arms and armor.

Ultimately the best option is to make sure the party has all their crafting bases covered. No one has to rely on luck, and if you happen to find an item that's good for your character it's a happy event rather than a necessary one.

Ashiel, what do your players do with all the items they pick up that are useless to them? In most games I know of, the GM allows them to just sell them at half value. This gives them gold to purchase other itmes.

Yep, sure do. My players do indeed sell off unwanted stuff. In fact, it's not uncommon to have a few mules to carry excess heavy gear (like splint mail) back to town, or hundreds of pounds of copper coins.

Quote:

However, according to you, this isn't going to happen because, who wants all that crap lying around their town since no ones going to buy it.

Nope. I never said that at all. If you find a +4 cold iron longsword, you can sell it and someone will consider buying it, and they can probably find someone who wants one. The majority of stuff that is beyond the average market for the PCs is often kept by them in my group, however, because it's rare that a magic item of exceptional value is really useless to the party.

Quote:

How the hell do all those bad guys get their +3 weapons?

The simplest answer is they don't. Seriously, +3 weapons are not something that are by any means common if we're going off the rules here. Bare with me here while I explain...

Here is the Creating NPCs page. It's very helpful. It gives us the treasure values of NPCs based on level/CR in your standard Pathfinder game, and gives us suggestions as to how to spread their wealth. Now looking at these values it's clear to see that NPCs are not loaded with magic items. A +3 weapon is at minimum 18,300 gp. You can't even swing that until you're talking about a 12th level Heroic NPC (or CR 12 classed creature if using Bestiary standards which are cleaner), and it would consume about 90% of the NPCs total wealth. Kind of iffy!

It's not until around Heroic Level 16 (or Bestiary CR 16) that you can afford a +3 weapon in the recommended allotment of cash-to-weapons, and in doing so you're probably putting all your goodies into one basket (in other words you have one +3 weapon and poopy backups). So the likelihood of you stumbling across a +3 weapon is not so good, honestly. Now some bestiary creatures like Ghaele Azatas have triple treasure values, and you might get some swank swag off of them, but that's if they happen to have all their treasure in one basket as well.

The short version is that there aren't +3 weapons floating around everywhere. They're actually quite rare (and pretty awesome given that that is the point where they get to ignore DR if it's a flat enhancement). More than likely you'll be looting masterwork and +1 weapons off most enemies, along with a modest assortment of other magic items that are appropriate for them, and consumables.

If my group happens to find a +3 short sword during their adventures it is a fairly noteworthy thing. Some might consider keeping it just because it's hard to get and might come in handy (being able to count as both cold iron and silver while granting an additional +1 to hit and damage is something to consider), or they might cash it in for 9,155 gp and grab some more useful items from the store, such as a +2 item that is more useful to them specifically, or buy some elixirs for buffing (the +10 to a skill kind) or buy some more handy haversacks (packages, boxes, and bags man!).

Quote:

If you're in combat against badies with warrior or fighter levels, chances are you're going to pick up a wepon that matches your skill set. I think by your rule of random loot allocation, its not unfair to assume that the big bad has a +1 or +2 holy long sword lying discarded somehwere because he was just unlucky in raiding the last town he hit.

Something of that magnitude would have already been sold off or wielded by someone else (perhaps a neutral-aligned minion). The only way that the big bad would be upset about having such a powerful weapon would be if he was evil (probably a given as the big bad) or a Fighter (the only class out of all the other classes to give a damn that it's the wrong type of weapon). Or it would have been sold off and his minions armed with more useful but cheaper goodies at your local magic mart (hey, maybe that's how Brambleman's +4 holy mithral longsword got in the town! The BBEG sold it and armed all his minions with it).

Quote:

Seriously, in every discussion on this board WBL has always been used to add a level playing field. Your an exponent of this in every arguemtn you wade in on.

Except this one for some reason.

No, this one too. I'm all for WBL, but WBL doesn't mean you automatically get to have any item you want. You still have to purchase them however. You will notice that in every discussion that I participate in that includes WBL, I follow the standard for what sort of items I purchase (I do not purchase equipment above what is easily available in a metropolis without GM fiat), and won't have anything beyond those reasonable assumptions unless I also possess an item creation feat to make them myself.

Quote:

When we mention Verisimiltude in terms of alignment and code wekness for the Palaidn, it gets put down. However, now it seems to come up as a counter for fighters and access to their weapons.

It depends on what you're talking about here. The Code is not a weakness directly. It's not a strait-jacket. It doesn't do anything that it doesn't say it does. Codes aren't a problem unless you're trying to add stuff to the code.

If by alignment problems you mean smite-worthy enemies, that has been acknowledged by the pro-Paladin side of the discussion, but it has been rebuked with an equal helping of we don't give a s#~~ because the Paladin is not only smiting. It is the sturdiest class in the game. It has abilities that can keep it relevant when its not smiting. Some of us would still consider playing a Paladin even without smiting ever, because their other abilities are great, and their offense is still decent even without smite. Smite is gravy. The problem is that for the Fighter to out-pace the Paladin's non-smite damage the Fighter must be specializing in a particular type of weapon, and without that particular type of weapon the Fighter has an issue.

Now the problem here is that Fighters have Weapon Speccing and they have Feats (armor training is cool but other classes get things similar and as Aelryinth pointed out, it is almost entirely mimiced by items you're gonna get anyway). Now most Fighters must expend those feats and weapon training to match their peers. If they lack their favorite weapon they are out of luck and are back to being NPC warrior 1.5. Other martial characters do not have this problem. A Paladin can pick a stick up off the ground and terrorize an enemy with it. If a Paladin is disarmed, their weapon destroyed, captured and their stuff gets taken away, has their weapon nuked via spellcasting, or eating by a monster, the Paladin just grabs the next best thing and keeps going. The Fighter on the other hand just lost about 4/10ths of his class.

Quote:

As for the weapon, we're playing in a world with factions that send agents out to fight each other, patrons that hire PC's, cities that are rescued by PC's and merchants who want PC wealth. It is not unreasonable to assume that during the course of an actual campaign, rather than Theoryville, that players can find the weapon they want either through loot, through purchasing or through contacts.

Most of us understand this, so when it comes to a place where the purchase of an item is possible, we tend to just "handwave it" since the last time we went down the track of tediously rolling time and looking up factors we found it wasn't fun.

They have really great generators for that. Cuts down the tediousness of random generation.

So you're deviating from the rules. That's fine. Good for you. It's your game. If you want to handwave stuff and say that people get exactly what they want when they want it, then that's entirely your prerogative. That doesn't mean it is any more relevant to the discussion unless your expressly note the difference. "Fighters will have a +3 weapon by 11th level" is an entirely different statement than "In our games we handwave item availability and thus fighters will have a +3 weapon by 11th level".

Quote:

Don't tell people they can't bring their games into a discussion when you always bring your games into it.

I won't, and didn't. I will point out when something is not adhering to the standard and being passed off as standard. If you say "A Fighter will have a +3 weapon by 11th level" I'm going to say "Prove it. I have this, this, and this, saying that isn't likely to happen at all".

Quote:

Part of being able to compare a class is its ability to fit into the world of the GM and the party they run with.

And since we can't compare based on every GM and every group, we stick to standard when discussing, because we can balance and discuss balance in the rules from that point. Once it hits the countless tabletops across the world however who knows?

Quote:

Paladins do this worse than any other class because of the huge limitiations their alignment and code have. In essence, they limit the game types and scenarios for a group more than any class. Boooooring.

That's why fighters rock. If a players says they have a fighter, I can run all sorts of scenarios.

That's fair. That's not a mechanical issue however, it's a difference in theme. Antipaladins are a good fit there though. Also Rangers.

You can talk all you want about crafting and formulas and the complexities of acquiring optimized weapons when influenced by the statistical analysis of opportunity cost based on the GDP of Cheliax
but all he is going to hear is 2+3=cats while he is just taking the sword from a dang dead bad person, place or thing.

Remind me again which features of the Paladin class are the ones that make it so awesome?

I believe you missed my point.

Numbers are not the problem. I like numbers. And everyone needs them.
The problem is when they are all you get. Especially when they are not even that much higher than everybody else's.

Getting another use of Smite Evil is nice because you get lots of different numbers with that, and it doesn't restrict you. And it gives you something to do in combat. One different thing to say other than "I full attack"
Spending your only class feature to get a +1 to-hit is not. It feels weak, restricts you to a single weapon and doesn't give you anything new to do.

Again, note that I was not criticizing Fighters, just builds that focus on getting higher numbers and nothing else, something very common in Fighter builds, which is rather sad, IMO.
Hell I even mentioned a nice selection of feats that I'd take if I were to play a Fighter. Look at any of Bob's build and you see that you can create a very effective and interesting fighter with some variety of tricks to pull.

Also, Detect Evil, LoH, spells, Divine Bond and immunities all do more than add numerical bonuses.

Again, numbers are not the problem. Restrictions are. Weapon Focus is not only boring, but it's also restrictive.

EDIT: For a similar, but much more interesting 2-handed build, I'd just grab a Falchion and get Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical, Lunge... Probably Weapon Focus too, as it's a very common prerequisite.

See, I got some numerical feats there, but they are mixed with "option" feats and I'd still have some left for Iron Will and archery feats.
Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, however, are not something you'll ever see in any of my characters, unless they are prerequisites for something REALLY cool.

I give my PCs their entire WBL in the form of Monks Robes. None of them is a monk. Then the shopkeepers won't buy them all because there's no demand for that many Monks Robes.

I think the best thing is to just start them at higher levels with a large block of adamantium. Too heavy to lift, too hard to break pieces off of, and of course since you don’t even have a spell component pouch, there are few spells which will work. But they still have WBL, so what’s the complaint?

This is why I play Pathfinder- where James Jacobs the Creative Director- has said loudly and often that this sort of Talmudic rules-lawyerly jiggery-pokerery is just not part of his game. It’s not part of my game either.

If we're discussing problems with classes, though, "how most groups play" is pretty relevant. How many people played a Fighter up to level 15 but been stuck with a +2-equivalent weapon the entire time? If this never happens to anybody, then the "can't get better than +2" thing isn't a real issue.

And I'm still waiting for you "standard" fans to show me the page of the rulebook where it says commissions are impossible.

WBL is just useful for making sure that the PC's capabilities match relatively close to the threat level of common foes at any given character level.

Because the most efficient use of WBL tends to be the big 6 items (plus some auxiliary items) this tends to produce campaigns where you can pretty much expect item x to be found or made by the PCs by a specific level. The consequences of not doing that means that the Fighter doesn't have the expected AC or saves or expected bonus to hit, etc. The fighter being one of the most gear dependent classes altering assumptions concerning PC wealth and gear accessibility have massive effects on the game.

In my games I tend to pretty much allow PCs to get the gear they need at or around the levels where it is assumed they'll get it but it generally involves questing, commissioning, or crafting instead of just putting a specific magic item on your wish list at the fantasy version of amazon.

If we're discussing problems with classes, though, "how most groups play" is pretty relevant. How many people played a Fighter up to level 15 but been stuck with a +2-equivalent weapon the entire time? If this never happens to anybody, then the "can't get better than +2" thing isn't a real issue.

And I'm still waiting for you "standard" fans to show me the page of the rulebook where it says commissions are impossible.

No one said they are. Go back and read the posts on the issue, I do believe you missed something.

Also, don't carve people into different camps like that. It's rude and unnecessary.

Hey, I never agreed (or disagreed... or even mentioned) Ashiel's take on what weapons are available, but I understand why he chooses to stick to RAW.

We all have different gaming groups, personalities, houserules and GMs. We all have unique games and gaming styles.

RAW is the one thing we all share. It's our only common ground, no matter if we are a italian group of friends playing a epic campaign or a Mexican man GMing a low-level adventure for his wife and kids.

RAW is not perfect, but unless the discussion specifically calls out some house rule or unusual rule interpretation, we should assume RAW is the standard.

Hey, I never agreed (or disagreed... or even mentioned) Ashiel's take on what weapons are available, but I understand why he chooses to stick to RAW.

We all have different gaming groups, personalities, houserules and GMs. We all have unique games and gaming styles.

RAW is the one thing we all share. It's our only common ground, no matter if we are a italian group of friends playing a epic campaign or a Mexican man GMing a low-level adventure for his wife and kids.

RAW is not perfect, but unless the discussion specifically calls out some house rule or unusual rule interpretation, we should assume RAW is the standard.

If we're discussing problems with classes, though, "how most groups play" is pretty relevant. How many people played a Fighter up to level 15 but been stuck with a +2-equivalent weapon the entire time? If this never happens to anybody, then the "can't get better than +2" thing isn't a real issue.

I've seen many, many, maaaany games that ignore encumbrance and don't track cover correctly or don't have the first clue as to how lighting conditions work. We've got people saying they handwave or weren't even aware of the item limits. What are you trying to prove here?

Quote:

And I'm still waiting for you "standard" fans to show me the page of the rulebook where it says commissions are impossible.

Won't happen because as I said before it is outside the realm of the rules. It is GM fiat, just like a lot of other stuff. A commission is a purchase so you could just go with the core rules, or you might add another option at your desire. I for example allow players to haggle with people to get discounts or better deals on their goods. I don't, however, come to the forum and say "Oh frabjous day, Diplomacy is the hax, it gets people % cost reductions on their purchases and increases the amount of GP you make when you sell stuff!" because that's not in the rules. That's me accepting a player making a request for cheaper goods (with each 5% up/down counting as an single request) based on GM judgment.

Now the problem here is that Fighters have Weapon Speccing and they have Feats (armor training is cool but other classes get things similar and as Aelryinth pointed out, it is almost entirely mimiced by items you're gonna get anyway)

how exactly is that? how can a paladin move freely in a full palte? celestial plate is still considered a medium armor, it cost 25000 (so basically no city in the world sells it). IF you try to make it a mithirl celestial full palte then you enter in the houserule territory.

Now, imunity to dominate from an evil enemy is easily replicated by a 4,5K item. And it basically solves like 1/2+ of "fighter get dominated" problem

Now the problem here is that Fighters have Weapon Speccing and they have Feats (armor training is cool but other classes get things similar and as Aelryinth pointed out, it is almost entirely mimiced by items you're gonna get anyway)

how exactly is that? how can a paladin move freely in a full palte? celestial plate is still considered a medium armor, it cost 25000 (so basically no city in the world sells it). IF you try to make it a mithirl celestial full palte then you enter in the houserule territory.

Sorry, it's not. Mithral do what mithral do.

Quote:

Now, imunity to dominate from an evil enemy is easily replicated by a 4,5K item. And it basically solves like 1/2+ of "fighter get dominated" problem

So adding magic and mithral to an item is house rules, but creating a custom protection from evil item is not? WTF dude? Seriously, wtf? Also, the item to protect vs mental control would take about 22,000 gp (4000 gp base, +6000 gp for protection from law, +6000 gp for protection from chaos, +6000 gp for protection from good), and then you'd still be vulnerable to neutral casters.

Now the problem here is that Fighters have Weapon Speccing and they have Feats (armor training is cool but other classes get things similar and as Aelryinth pointed out, it is almost entirely mimiced by items you're gonna get anyway)

how exactly is that? how can a paladin move freely in a full palte? celestial plate is still considered a medium armor, it cost 25000 (so basically no city in the world sells it). IF you try to make it a mithirl celestial full palte then you enter in the houserule territory.

Sorry, it's not. Mithral do what mithral do.

Quote:

Now, imunity to dominate from an evil enemy is easily replicated by a 4,5K item. And it basically solves like 1/2+ of "fighter get dominated" problem

So adding magic and mithral to an item is house rules, but creating a custom protection from evil item is not? WTF dude? Seriously, wtf? Also, the item to protect vs mental control would take about 22,000 gp (4000 gp base, +6000 gp for protection from law, +6000 gp for protection from chaos, +6000 gp for protection from good), and then you'd still be vulnerable to neutral casters.

You're just trying to be contrary at this point aren't you?

What? a wayfinder is a published item the same is the clear sindle Ioun stone

how exactly is that? how can a paladin move freely in a full palte? celestial plate is still considered a medium armor, it cost 25000 (so basically no city in the world sells it). IF you try to make it a mithirl celestial full palte then you enter in the houserule territory.

how exactly is that? how can a paladin move freely in a full palte? celestial plate is still considered a medium armor, it cost 25000 (so basically no city in the world sells it). IF you try to make it a mithirl celestial full palte then you enter in the houserule territory.

Now, taking a specific magic item and enhace it is a Houserule. (because a guideline is a guidline not a rule), most of people including devs agree with this.

Um, how about no? There's no question in how you create celestial armor (its a magical enhancement) and there is no question as to what mithral does either when you make armors out of it. This is not a confused issue here.

Now, taking a specific magic item and enhace it is a Houserule. (because a guideline is a guidline not a rule), most of people including devs agree with this.

Um, how about no? There's no question in how you create celestial armor (its a magical enhancement) and there is no question as to what mithral does either when you make armors out of it. This is not a confused issue here.

I am certain that it is a houserule, Anyways for the purpose of this thread let not disccus this. If the pally takes craft armor let him have thin one item.

Now the problem here is that Fighters have Weapon Speccing and they have Feats (armor training is cool but other classes get things similar and as Aelryinth pointed out, it is almost entirely mimiced by items you're gonna get anyway)

how exactly is that? how can a paladin move freely in a full palte? celestial plate is still considered a medium armor, it cost 25000 (so basically no city in the world sells it). IF you try to make it a mithirl celestial full palte then you enter in the houserule territory.

Sorry, it's not. Mithral do what mithral do.

Quote:

Now, imunity to dominate from an evil enemy is easily replicated by a 4,5K item. And it basically solves like 1/2+ of "fighter get dominated" problem

So adding magic and mithral to an item is house rules, but creating a custom protection from evil item is not? WTF dude? Seriously, wtf? Also, the item to protect vs mental control would take about 22,000 gp (4000 gp base, +6000 gp for protection from law, +6000 gp for protection from chaos, +6000 gp for protection from good), and then you'd still be vulnerable to neutral casters.

Now, taking a specific magic item and enhace it is a Houserule. (because a guideline is a guidline not a rule), most of people including devs agree with this.

Um, how about no? There's no question in how you create celestial armor (its a magical enhancement) and there is no question as to what mithral does either when you make armors out of it. This is not a confused issue here.

I am certain that it is a houserule, Anyways for the purpose of this thread let not disccus this. If the pally takes craft armor let him have thin one item.

The wayfinder is pretty cool too. I wasn't aware of that one (my group tends to stick mostly to core magic items). Thanks for that. (^-^)

To be fair ashiel, dont you support the npc classes never count as key interpretation of cr? If +3 weapons are available for level 16 heroic thats level 17 npc class, so cr 9 encounter or so.

To be fair Stringburka, I take the whole Bestiary thing, which also includes giving them wealth as a heroic character equal to their CR. Which means that you'd still need a CR 16 enemy for it to be anywhere near reasonable even using the Bestiary standard for filling out CRs. The biggest difference between the Bestiary rules for determining CR and the Core Rulebook is the Bestiary version gives you less screwy statistics to CR (instead of just being free XP/treasure nodes :P).

EDIT: Here's an example. Going by the Core Rulebook you end up with an NPC who is 17th level with 16th level NPC cash with the statistics of a CR 9 creature, roughly. The Bestiary method would have the character roughly a CR 9 creature with 9th level heroic NPC WBL (basically a double standard wealth but you'll probably sell most of it for 1/2 value, resulting in more or less standard wealth). Whereas a CR 16 foe would have 16th level WBL, which again is much closer to the where you arrive at with other CR-appropriate creatures.

I'm not going to go back and quote stuff from way back earlier in the day. I am going to have to say that GM fiat is one of the most tired tropes ever used. It is used improperly so often especially by those who have a burning need to be "right." Here's the deal: the game runs with a GM. The GM sets the encounters, the environment, the treasures, the NPCs, etc. The GM needs to make decisions that simple tables cannot determine. It is the duty (yes, I do mean duty) of the GM to actually provide an enjoyable game for the players.

What does this mean? This means that it is not GM fiat that there are greater than +2 weapons to be found. The players can find all kinds of ways of getting them, to include just buying one in town. It can be commissioned. It can be earned. It can be stolen. It doesn't matter. The fact that the items exist at all is enough evidence that they can be had somehow. The GMG shows a GM how to build a settlement. It's no more GM fiat than building your character is player fiat.

So let's drop this incredibly inane portion of the argument. The items exist and they can be had by characters. Dismissing them to make the paladin look better than the fighter doesn't do anything productive. I can show you prices for them. They can be had. This will be my last posting about +2 or greater items being available. If you've got the money, someone's got the goods.

Here's what I see as the real crux of the problem, from the OP (not certain posters): some people need their abilities spelled out for them while others can handle the more open chassis. Neither one is good or bad. It's just a preference. I like the openness of the fighter class. I like being able to build almost anything I want. I would like some things to improve (mounts come immediately to mind and hopefully an upcoming book will address that).

I'm not going to go back and quote stuff from way back earlier in the day. I am going to have to say that GM fiat is one of the most tired tropes ever used. It is used improperly so often especially by those who have a burning need to be "right." Here's the deal: the game runs with a GM. The GM sets the encounters, the environment, the treasures, the NPCs, etc. The GM needs to make decisions that simple tables cannot determine. It is the duty (yes, I do mean duty) of the GM to actually provide an enjoyable game for the players.

What does this mean? This means that it is not GM fiat that there are greater than +2 weapons to be found. The players can find all kinds of ways of getting them, to include just buying one in town. It can be commissioned. It can be earned. It can be stolen. It doesn't matter. The fact that the items exist at all is enough evidence that they can be had somehow. The GMG shows a GM how to build a settlement. It's no more GM fiat than building your character is player fiat.

So let's drop this incredibly inane portion of the argument. The items exist and they can be had by characters. Dismissing them to make the paladin look better than the fighter doesn't do anything productive. I can show you prices for them. They can be had. This will be my last posting about +2 or greater items being available. If you've got the money, someone's got the goods.

A fine speech. I'm not going to say anything further, because I consider you a friend on the boards, and I feel that if I say what I feel in this case it will come across as disrespectful. I yield this discussion and further discussions on it, at least for now. I wish you a good day.