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In looking through "a translation of The Dead Sea Scrolls" by Michael Wise & friends, I found a few interesting things.

One is how the Qumran jewish community understood the term "son of God". The idea that the term "son of God" doesn't have anything to do with a claim of "Divinity" in jewish thought is not true. I knew for some time that 2nd temple Judaism was not a monolith, when it came to "Biblical interpretation". I knew this from reading the book of Enoch. Infact, alot of christian interpretation of the Old Testament text can be seen in the book of Jubilees and the book of Enoch. And these were written and compiled by Jews before the first advent of Christ.

Now this book didn't translate most of the biblical scrolls. Instead it translated most of the Qumran commentaries of Biblical scrolls. It also translated alot of their other religious writtings. In order to see the actual Biblical scrolls you will have to get the dead sea bible

Now, on how to read a dead sea scroll. I will use scroll # 4Q246 as an example.

Eventually each scroll was givin a "Q" number. This indicates what cave the scroll came from. In our example scroll 4Q246 came from cave # 4 of Qumran.

The numbers "246" means the 246th manuscript found at that cave.

1.) Italics found in a translation of a scroll are Explanatory notes or headings.

2.) Brackets [ ] or ( ) found in a translation of a dead sea scroll usually means that it is surrounding lost information due to damage of the scroll.

3.) Frag with a number usually indicates the number or group of the fragment.

4.) Col. usually indicates the column number of the fragment or group of fragments.

Now, on to what the book had to say about scroll 4Q246,

first the commentary:

"50. A Vision of the Son of God.

This small textignited a controversy when aportion of it was published in 1974. It speaks of apowerful figure who shall appear in a time of tribulation and be called the "sonof God" and "son of the most High" and whom all nations obey. The expressionsirresistibly recall the language that the Gospels use of Jesus, especially inthe episode describing the angel's message to MAry that she would bear a son: "He will be great, and will be no end" (Luke 1:32-33).

At the time, somescholars argued that the published portion proved an important idea: that anearthly king destined to come and bring peace (i.e., the messiah) would also becalled by Second Temple Jews the "Son of God". Certain biblical texts could betaken to support this idea. (e.g., 2 Sam 7:14), and if true, it would shedsubstantial light on the New Testament's portrayal of Jesus. Other scholars,however, understood the text's "Son of God" as a villain, one who usurps theplace of God but is subsequently overthrown by the "people of God," who have Godon their side.Now that the entire work has finally become available, acareful reading confirms this second, "Antichrist," option. The historicalbackground of this text may well be the persecution of the Jews under the Syriantyrant Antiochus IV in the period 170-164 B.C.E. This ruler's chosen secondname, "Epiphanes" (greek for "appearance"), encapsulated the notion of a humanking as God manifest. Such human pretensions to deity have never been welcome inJudaism and were condemned out of hand in the prophecies of Isaiah (14:12-21)and Ezekiel (28:1-10). Jesus's claims to more -than - human status were likewiserejected by his contemporaries: "We would stone you for blasphemy, because you,though you are a man, are making yourself God" (John 10:33). A similar distastefor claims to divinity seems to animate this fragmentary prophecy. [1]

The beginning of the interpretation. War and slaughterare imminent. This tribulation will culminate in the accesion to power of acruel tyrant.

2[...O ki]ng, wrath is coming to the world, and your years3[shall be shortened...such] is your vision, and all of it is about to come untothe world. 4[...Amid] great [signs], tribulation is coming upon the land.5[...After much killing] and slaughter, a prince of nations 6[will arise....]the king of Assyria and Egypt 7[...]he will be ruler over the land 8[...] willbe subject to him and all will obey 9[him]

The tyrant's son willsucceed him and begin to accrue to himself honor due only to God. Yet the reignof father and son will be brief.

[Also his son] will be called theGreat, and be designated by his name.COl.2 1He will be called the Son ofGod, they will call him the son of the Most High. But like the meteors 2that yousaw in your vision, so will be their kingdom. They will reign only a few yearsover 3the land, while people tramples people and nation tramples nation.

Deliverance from distress finally comes when the people of Godarise, bringing peace and prosperity. God is working through them and in themand his rule shall finally prevail.

4Until the people of God arise; thenall will have rest from warfare. Their Kingdom will be an eternal Kingdom, andall their paths will be righteous. They will judge 6the land justly, and allnations will make peace. Warfare will cease from the land, 7and all the nationsshall do obeisance to them. The great God will be their help, 8He Himself willfight for them, putting peoples into power, 9overthrowing them all before them,God's rule will be an eternal rule and all the depths of 10[the earth are His].-E.M.C. [1]

The one above was in regards to an anti-christ. Scroll 11q13 is in regards to the Messiah in whom they thought was Melchizedek. From the looks of it, they pretty much saw him as "Divine". Well at least the names they gave him were Divine.

I'll type the commentary first,

Quote:154. The coming of Melchizedek

"The biblical Jubilee year was the fiftieth year, the year followingthe succession of seven sabbatical years. Whereas a sabbatical year was one inwhich the land had to lie fallow and rest (analogous to the sabbath at the endof the week), in th ejubilee year all land that had been alienated from itsoriginal owners was supposed to return to them. All Hebrew slaves were to be setfree. The jubilee year began on the Day of Atonement and was signaled by theblowing of trumpets throughout the land and the proclamation of universalliberty.The author of the present intriguing melange ofbiblical citations has selected many of the Bible's verses that relate to thejubilee year and created a work in which those portions receive their "true"interpretation-one by no means obvious to casual readers of the Bible. Heunderstands the jubilee-year remission of debts as referring not merely toprosaic matters of money, but to the forgiveness of sin. The author declaredthat th agent of this salvation is to be none other than Melchizedek, amysterious figure referenced only twice in the Bible, in Genesis 14 and Pslam110.For our author, Melchizedek is an enormouslyexalted divine being to whom are apllied names generally reserved for God alone:the Hebrew names al and elohim. In the author's citation of Isaiah 61:2, whichspeaks of "the year of the Lod's favor," Melchizedek is substututed even forthis most holy name of Israel's God. Yet more remarkably, Melchizedek is said toatone for the sins of the righteous and to execute judgement upon the wicked-actions usually associated with God himself. By the power of Melchizedek,dominion on earth shall pass from Satan (here called Belial) to the righteousSons of Light

This latter group Constitutes those who are predestined tobelong to the party of Melchizedek, "the congreation of the sons ofrighteousness." These people heed the message of a second figure described inthis writing as "the messenger." The messenger, also designed "Anointed of theSpirit" (Hebrew messiah), is conceived of as coming with a message from God, amessage explicating the course of history (that is, adeclaration of when the Endshall come) and teaching about God's truths. This figure dies, an event that maycorrespond somehow with the text's references to "jubilee periods."In many of the scrolls, jubilee periods are notonly times of liberation as described in the Bible, but also ways of keepingtrack of time. The present text apparently envisions a scheme in which thecoming of the Last Days is calculated by means of these jubilee periods. Muchabout this remarkable text remains mysterious, and considerable further researchwill be needed to achieve a truer understanding of its ideas. The figure ofMelchizedek as portrayed here is strikingly reminiscent of the New Testamentreference to a heavenly figure of that name, a high priest desribed asfollows:"without father, without mother, withoutgenealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling theSon of God, he remains a priest forever" (Heb. 7:3). Clearly Melchizedek was afocus of power salvific imagery among various Jewish groups in the period of thescrolls." [2]

And now, on to the actual scroll itself.

The figure of Melchizedek, the heavenly savior of thosepredestined to belong to him.

Col.2

2[. . .]And concerning whatScripture says, "In [this] year of Jubilee [you shall return, every one of you,to your property" (Lev. 25:13) and what is also written, "And this] 3is the[ma]nner of [the remission:] every creditor shall remit the claim that is held[against a neighbor, not exacting it of a neighbor who is a member of thecommunity, because God's] remission [has been proclaimed" (Deut. 15:2):] 4[theinterpretation] is that it applies [to the L]ast Days and concerns the captives,just as [Isaiah said: "To proclaim the Jubilee to the captives" (Isa. 61;1) . .. .] and whose teachers have been hidden and kept secr[et], even from theinheritance of Melchizedek, f[or . . .] and they are the inherit[ance ofMelchize]dek, who 6will return them to what is rightfully theirs. He willproclaim to them the Jubilee, thereby releasing th[em from the debt of a]lltheir sins.This word [will thus co]me 7in the first week of the jubileeperiod that follows ni[ne j]ubilee periods. Then the "D[ay of Atone]ment" shallfollow at the e[nd of] the tenth [ju]bilee period, 8when he shall atone for allthe Sons of [Light] and the peopl[e who are pre]destined to Mel[chi]zedek. [. ..] upo[n the]m [. . .] For 9this is the time decreed for "the year ofMelchiz[edek]'s favor" (Isa. 61:2, modified) and for [his] ho[ts, together] withthe holy ones of God, for a kingdom of judgment, just as it is written 10concerning him in the Songs of David, "A godlike being has taken his place inthe council[cil of God;] in the midst of the divine beings he holds judgment"(Ps. 82:1). Scripture also s[ays] about him, "Over [it] 11take your seat in thehighest heaven; A divine being will judge the peoples" (Ps. 7:7-8).

Concerning what scripture s[ays, "How long will y]ou judge unjustly,and sh[ow] partiality to the wick[ed]? [S]el[ah" (Ps. 82:2),] 12theinterpretation applies to Belial and the spirits predestined to him, becau[seall of them have rebe]lled, turn[ing] from God's precepts [and so becomingutterly wicked.] 13Therefore Melchizedek will thoroughly prosecute the vengeancerequired by Go[d's] statutes. [In that day he will de]liv[er them from thepower] of Belial, and from the power of all the sp[irits predestined to him.]14Allied with him will be all the ["righteous] divine beings" (Isa. 61:3).

[Th]is is that wh[ich . . .al]l the divine beings.

Thefigure of the messenger, an Anointed One who comes with a message from God butis "cut off."

This vi[sitation] 15is the Day of [Salvation] that Hehas decreed [. . . through Isai]ah the prophet [concerning all the captives,]inasmuch as Scripture sa[ys, "How] beautiful 16upon the mountains are the fee[tof] the messeng[er] who [an]nounces peace, who brings [good] news, [whoannounces salvations, who [sa]ys to Zion, 'Your [di]vine being [reigns' " (Isa.52:7).]

17This scripture's interpretation: "the mountains" [are] theprophet[s,] they w[ho were sent to procaim God's truth and to] prop[esy] to allI[srael.] 18And "the messenger" is the Anointed of the the Spir[it,] of whomDan[iel] spoke, ["After the sixty-two weeks, an Anointed One shall be cut off"(Dan. 9:26). The "messenger who brings] 19good news, who announces[cessalvation"] is the one of whom it is wri[tt]en,

["to proclaim the yearof the Lord's favor, the day of vengeance of our God;] 20to comfort

tocomfo[rt all who mourn" (Isa. 61:2) This scripture's interpretation:] he is toinst[r]uct them about all the periods of history for eter[nity. . . and in thestatutes of] 21[the] truth. [. . .] 22[. . . . dominion] that passes from Belialand ret[urns to the Sons of Light. . . ] 23[. . .] by the judgment of God, justas t is written concerning him, ["who says to Zi]on "Your divine being reigns"(Isa. 52;7) ["Zi]on" is 24[the congregation of all the sons of righteousness,who] uphold the covenant and turn from walking [in the way] of the people. "Yourdivine being" is 25[Melchizedek, who will del]iv[er them from the po]wer ofBelial. Concerning what scripture says, "Then you shall have the trumpet[sounded loud; in] all the land of . . . " (Lev. 25:9, modified)] - M.O.W.[2]

At least we know that some Jews (before the first advent of Christ) believed that the coming Messhiah was going to be "Divine". I'm over looking their predestinarian views for now. To be honest it's hard to tell how they viewed predestination vs free will. At this point in time, we just don't have enough information to say either way.

But this post isn't about the doctrine of free will. These two scrolls alone shows us that the term "son of God" was also seen by some Jews as a claim of "Divinity". In this case they saw an anti-christ figure as makng that claim.

This agrees with the gospel account of Jesus being stoned by some Jews for making that claim. Thus one can't say that this was just a christian claim. It has it's roots in Judaism itself. Judaism was not a monolith......it had various interpretations.

We don't know what party the jews were at Qumran. What we do know is that they hated the party of the Pharisees. Some of their writings attack the Pharisees and they praise those high priests and kings that had Pharisees killed. They seem like a warrior blood thirsty theonomic Jewish sect.

Conclusion:

The next time someone tells you that the term "son of God" didn't have anything to do with "a claim of Divinity in Jewish thought", just show them the account found in the Gospel of John as well as these two scrolls by a jewish sect who lived before the first advent of Christ. This is more than enough evidence to prove that "some" jews did interprete that term to mean "a claim of Divinity".

So it's not a christian invention. It is not a "reading into the text by christian interpreters". It was a common interpretation of some jews in that era.

"Dr. Nassif introduces you to Sister Nonna Harrison, an Orthodox nun and professor at St. Paul's School of Theology in Kansas City, MO where she teaches Orthodox studies to Methodist seminarians. Listen to how she teaches the Methodists, and what the Methodists have taught her! She also discusses her work as a scholar and author, and the books she has published with St. Vladimir's Press. If you'd like Sr. Nonna to speak at your Church, contact Dr. Nassif through email and he will forward your inquiry to her."

I was told that this was an awsome book, infact, more than one person at the parish told me this. So I finally decided to buy it. I won't be able to read it until maybe late July or early August, but I'm glad I finally have it in my collection.

"Elder Porphyrios, a Greek monk and priest whodied in 1991, stands in the long tradition of charismatic spiritual guides inthe Eastern Church which continues from the apostolic age down to figures suchas Saint Seraphim of Sarov and Staretz Silouan in modern times. In this book hetells the story of his life and, in simple, deeply reflected and profoundly wisewords, he expounds the Christian faith for today.This book was compiled after his death from anarchive of notes and recordings of his reminiscences, conversations and words ofguidance, and was first published in Greek in 2003.The vibrant personality of Elder Porphyrios at alltimes shines through his words with great transparency and charm. In hisintroduction to the Greek edition Bishop Irenaeus of Chania writes: "The wordsof blessed Elder Porphyrios are the words of a holy Father, of a man with thegift of clear sight, who was ever retiring, humble, simple and ardentand whose life was a true and authentic witness to Christ, to His truth and toHis joy. Through his presence, love, prayer, counsel and guidance he supportedan untold number of people in the difficult hours of illness, mourning, pain,loss of faith and death. He is a god-bearing Father of our days, a truepriest and teacher who in his ascetic way fell in love with Christ andfaithfully served his fellow man. His teaching is deeply impregnated with theethos and theology of the Orthodox Church and is dominated by the person andimage of Christ our Saviour.'

[1]

JNORM888

[1] from the back cover of "Wounded by Love" by Elder Porphyrios, edited by the sisters of the Holy Convent of Chrysopigi. copy right 2005, published by Denise Harvey )Publisher), 340 05 Limni, Evia, Greece

Let me restate the issue here becauseapparently you do not understand the problem - or - perhaps you do understand itand I can't tell that you do, because you never really addressed it. Youbasically implied that I should not be allowed at the table because my view is"new" - it has no "ancient" precedent. Ok. But here’s the problem. IF PM is“apostolic doctrine”; AM, PoM, and even much of modern PM is NOT apostolic…it iserroneous and was at one time NEW. And if AM, PoM, and much of modern PM was NEWat some point and it is argued that NEW stuff can’t be allowed at the table;then why are AMs, PoMs, and many modern PMs given a seat at the table?

That’s the jist of the post and you did not answer it, other than tomerely assert that you don’t see a problem with it.

The Bible onlyteaches one correct eschatological view. It is simply impossible for PoM, AM,and PM to all be right. Logically speaking, either one is correct or none are.So no matter what view you want to plug in as the correct interpretation ofScripture, that leaves the others as being in error and at some point they toowere “new” in the game. Again, for sake of argument, let’s just sayPremillennialism is the doctrine Paul taught. Then that means thatAmillennialism was a “new” and “erroneous” doctrine introduced into the church.And so was Postmillennialism and anything else other than premillennialism.

So what you’re telling me is that basically because these other viewsgot their voice in a little sooner, they get a free pass? That is arbitrary andcomplete nonsense.

Others have said, “well, though these views greatlydiffer on some points, they ALL affirm the proposition that Jesus WILLeventually return. This belief has been preserved by God in the church.” Thequestion then is, why is that one proposition made a test for fellowship? Onwhat Biblical grounds can that be made a test?

Again, you mean to tellme that a premillennialist can go off with some of the most wackiest andunbiblical ideas about a rebuilt temple, reinstituted ceremonies, gaps inDaniel, etc., and yet because he affirms this ONE proposition, he can sit at thetable and I can’t and all because he got his thesis turned in a little earlier?Again, complete nonsense.

Norm, I hope you and others truly rethink yourreasoning here. I find it very disturbing. I have suffered because of it and Ihear stories every week from others – true brothers and sisters in Christ – whoare suffering as well from leaders who reason this way.

As for the restof your posts, we’ve already been through that.

·The Church is not thefinal authority. God’s word formed the church, not vice-a-versa.

·Beinga direct disciple of someone does not insure that the disciple carries on theteacher’s doctrine at all points. Paul’s letters are filled with evidence to thecontrary. How many times did Paul have to remind his listeners and correct them?Often.

PS. I am also tired of J.W., SDAs, and Mormons always beingbrought up in a discussion with preterists. They simply don’t compare. In fact,they have more in common with traditional eschatology than with Preterism.

PPS. It is an argument from silence, hence a fallacy, to claim that fullpreterism is “new”. You simply have no idea what all was floating around inthose days. Granted, I can’t prove that it did exist – that whole argument isirrelevant. Arguments from silence and appeals to tradition are fallacies, plainand simple.

Neb,

You can't really call amill new. Most christians rejected the book of Revelations, So most christians never had a pre-mill view to begin with. And when the early PMers started to spread to other regions, this is when you had arguments about such a view. So you can't call Amill (brand new).

Also,

If you are going to mention Historic PM then you are going to have to use the Church as being the final authority. It was the Church at a euceminical council that took a stand on the issue. You can't use another standard that did not exist yet. How can you use that as the standard when the canon was still in flux?

You have to use the standard of the time. And at that time, the Apostolic tradition of Saint John (on this issue) was trumped by the Apostolic traditions of Mark, Andrew, Peter, and Paul.

The Christians in Ashia minor had a little more detail about end time views that other regions didn't have. And they lost the fight, just like they lost the fight some decades earlyier at the council of Nicea, in regards to Pascha observance.

The christians in Ashia minor were at one time called " quartodecimans" (because they observed Pascha on the same day the Jews observed Passover, which was Nisan 14)

This custom came from John, so the christians in his region did what he did. But they lost the fight at the council of Nicea, because the other Apostles (in other regions) did it differently.

So they were trumped. I don't see a problem with it. The Circumcision group were trumped at the very first Church council. And they were fighting for the customs of Moses.

This is what happens King Neb, and you shouldn't see a problem with it. Certian customs & beliefs/interpretations get trumped by other customs & beliefs/interpretations.....that are also ancient. It's always been that way.

You can look at the ancient universal councils, and you will see groups with different interpretations about a text fighting it out. We see this with the very first council in the book of Acts, and it's been the same way since.

The idea of a future second Temple was shared by some early PMers. The only difference, in this regard, between them and most of the modern Protestant PMers is that they believed the Anti-Christ was going to rebuild a future 3rd temple. They also believed that the anti-christ would bring the Jews back to Palestine, and they had a view about the rise of China before the coming of the jewish anti-christ. They also believed that the anti-christ would come from the tribe of Dan.

Everything in ancient PM was not declared heretical. Only the literal 1,000 earthly year riegn of Christ, and their carnal view of Paradise in that 1,000 year riegnAs seen below:

Quote:"The days will come in which vines having ten thousand brances will grow. In each branch, there will be ten thousand clusters. Each cluster will have ten thousand grapes, and every grape will give twenty-five metretes of wine, when pressed.....in like manner, a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand ears."

Irenaeus, citing Papias 120 A.D.

This is one of the reasons why ancient PM was disliked by most christians in other regions. They saw it as too carnal.....just like how Islam is carnal in how it views heaven.....infanct, some think that "Chilism" was a major influence on Islam in regards to how it viewed heaven.

Justin Martyr believed in the theory, but he admited that everyone did not agree with this idea.

You had two competing views. One group from Ashia minor that believed in a literal 1,000 year reign and embraced the book of Revelations. And those who either rejected Revelations, or just didn't embrace it. And these were the christians that did not believe in a literal 1,000 earthly reign of Christ.

Eventually the majority of christians won the day, for their view silenced the idea of a literal reign. They both were futurist, but they differed about the millenium.

Thus the Millenium was "spiritualized/Allegoricalized" Along with it's carnal understanding of "super foods".

Everything about modern Pm isn't wrong. Their literal view of the Millenium is wrong, their dispensational view of End times is wrong, for they will end up siding with the jewish anti-christ if they keep at it.

But not everything they believe in is wrong. It's a mutation of the ancient view, but so is postmill, and some forms of western amill.

But alot of modern PMers don't know that PM was declared heretical in the 4th century, so for the most part it's a view held in ignorance. I know when I was PM, I didn't know it was heretical until some years ago.

Full-Preterism is different from modern PM because Modern PM is still a futurist system. A system that believes in a future anti-christ, a future second coming as well as a future resurrection. So it's not as dangeruos as full-preterism.

My Godfather is a PMer(ancient PM. He picked it up from some of the early fathers & nonfathers). He is not suppose to be, because he's ORthodox. But as long as he's not dogmatic about his PMism, and as long as he doesn't try to spread it to others then he is still allowed to partake of cummunion.

So yeah, it's a heresy, but it's not a bad bad heresy. There are different levels of heresies/sins/error.....ect.

Historic PM is only on the table in some protestant circles. It is not on the table over all. It's not on the table with Rome, and it's not on the table with Eastern Orthodoxy.....eventhough we may tolerate it in regards to some members.

So at the end of the day, the onlything you can say about ancient christianity is:

Some believed in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on planet earth.

Most did not believe in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on planet earth.

Both views are old, and eventually one view won over the other one....well....for the most part. Much of what the early PMer's said is still legal so alot of Eastern amill views embrace alot of the other views of ancient PM.....the literal 1,000 year reign is rejected, as well as the carnal view of a 1,000 year paradise with super foods. But alot of the other stuff is embraced.

QUOTing Neb·"The Church is not the final authority. God’s wordformed the church, not vice-a-versa"

Jesus, and his Apostles formed the Church. The Apostles and their scribes wrote New Testament Scripture, so what do you mean by "God's word formed the church"? Where are you getting this from? Are you getting this from Owen again? Owen is not scripture and scripture never said that.

QUOTing Neb "Being a direct disciple of someone does notinsure that the disciple carries on the teacher’s doctrine at all points. Paul’sletters are filled with evidence to the contrary. How many times did Paul haveto remind his listeners and correct them? Often."

Outside of moral behavior, most of the doctrinal correction came from those who were influenced by outsiders, like the Circumcision party and gnosticism. What we don't see in scripture is error from followers of the Apostles who miss heard what they said. The Apostles spoke to the masses, so in order for their followers to get them wrong is for everyone to miss understand them.. We don't see that in scripture, and we don't see that in the accounts after the first century.

What we see are people erroring from being influenced by either the sect of the circumcision (The later Ebionites), or Gnosticism.

If the apostles spoke to 100 people in a room, and one miss heard him, then the 99 would correct that person by saying "we were there too and I didn't hear him say that". In order for you to be right, everyone who heard the Apostle speak had to hear them wrong. That just can't happen, especially when they sent people in their place to help sheppard the flock.

1 Corinthians 4:17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

You will also have to conclude that even Timothy miss understood Paul, and thus was spreading miss information to the flock.

That view just isn't realistic King Neb. If Paul tought the samething everywhere then those who got him wrong would "stick out" like a sore thumb.

QUOTing Neb, "PPS. It is an argument from silence, hence afallacy, to claim that full preterism is “new”. You simply have no idea what allwas floating around in those days. Granted, I can’t prove that it did exist –that whole argument is irrelevant. Arguments from silence and appeals totradition are fallacies, plain and simple."

It can be sure that they weren't floating around, the same way we know that JWism, Mormonism, and SDAism wasn't floating around back then. Nobody was arguing for a "fullpreterist" view.

There was no distubance of the faith in regards to the possition that you hold to. The distubance in christian circles came much later in time. Infact, It came from Calvinistic circles.

All the contingencies that reguire your view to form, came much later in time. One of which was the Reformed hermenuetic of a literal reading of a text. The idea that a text can have more than one meaning is rejected by you. There are contingencies in order for your view to exist.

Now in regards to PM. I only gave the historical context of it all. PM has a real ancient christian history, and full preterism doesn't. The ancient councils are more like guidlines of where you can and can't go with a doctrine. So it doesn't really matter if other views pop up. If they don't go out of bounds then what's the problem?

I don't see a problem with it. People can always agree to differ, and that's what the Church did for the first 381 years. But in the 4th century it ruled on the issue and that's that.

As long as your eschatology doesn't go out of bounds then what's the problem?

As far as doctrine goes....well, historically it depends on how far back you go, and what you look at. If you are looking at the 39 articles of faith....I think at one time it was 41, but if you are looking at the 39 articles then I would say that based on that they would look very close to "Reformed".

But alot of Anglicans ignore the 39 articles. This is mainly true for the main American branch. The Episcopalians. It seems as if the ECUSA doesn't care about the 39 articles. Well wait. You do have a somewhat conservative group. Well to be honest, they are moderate.

I don't know about now, but three years ago, the more conservative to moderate evangelicals of the ECUSA held to the 39 articles.

This is there main school.

http://www.tesm.edu/

This next link is of a church in Pittsburgh. They are an offshoot, a somewhat independant parish. I don't know about now, but three years ago, they were under the Anglican Archbishop of Uganda.

http://www.ccgf.org/ccgf/site/default.asp

They are a conservative to moderate evangelical group.

The same is true for Dr. Michael Youssef's parish.http://www.apostles.org/

These two groups are seen as "low church".

Another low church is the charismatic type.http://shepheart.com/luke/

They help out alot of the homeless veitnam vets in the Pittsburgh area. The actual church building is in uptown (between downtown & oakland)

In Anglicanism, you have High Church, broad church, and low church.

The high church, was what I was once a part of. Anglo-catholicism is about as high you can get in Anglicanism. And that's pretty much what I was. (at one time)

And this is an Anglo-Catholic parish in the Pittsburgh area.http://www.gracepgh.org/index.htm

The only conservative to moderate highchurch & Anglo-Catholic school is:http://www.nashotah.edu/

Historicaly, the evangelical and the Anglo-Catholic had beef. They were at eachothers necks, but in recent years, they have been working together in order to fight a common foe. And the common foe are the liberals.

The braod church is mainly anything in the middle of evangelical to high. I could be wrong about that, but most of the liberals seem to dwell in the "broad" section.

Anglicanism goes by what is called "the via media". It is suppose to believe in a middle way between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism.

But the truth is, it's heart has mostly been protestant & eversince the rise of Liberalism....it's heart has become agnostic to almost atheistic. But this is only in regards to the mainstream of America, Canada, and England. Most of Africa, and South East Ashia has been conservative. And even in America, the sub-groups are also conservative, and they are called "continual Anglicans". I think what's his name..."convictionmusic" was raised in a highchurch continual Anglican sub-denomination.

But like I said before. They are a mixed bunch. The doctrine on a number of issues can range.

Quote:Originally Posted by apokalumI'm interestedmainly in their core doctrines and their worship/preaching style.

I'minterviewing for a gig at a private episcopalian high school so I'm trying tofigure out what's it about. I know if I get hired on I'll probably have toattend chapel with everyone else.

All I can see from their site is thatit's diocesan.

Like I said before. Their doctrine can vary from Parish to Parish from Diocese to Diocese.

The same is true in regards to their worship style. It all depends on what they are. Are they "LOW CHURCH"? "Broad CHURCH"? or "HIGH CHURCH"?

And even then you gotta include the charismatics who have their own form of "Low Church" style. Some of them could be "high church", but the ones I been around were low.

The same is true for how they preach. They don't have one style that they stick to. It can be anything. They are suppose to be liturgical, and they are suppose to follow the church calander, some groups in Anglicanism don't always do that.

"For the next few podcasts Dr. Nassif will be interviewingthree people who participated in the annual meeting of the Orthodox TheologicalSociety that recently met in Chicago. On today's broadcast, he interviewsMatthew Namee, a young historian. This is one young man whom Dr. Nassif believesholds great promise as a future lay leader in our Church. You'll enjoy gettingto know Matthew as you learn about the vision the Lord has given him for hiswork in the American Church. (11:49)"

This is where it came from. "from this forum" and it was mostly adressed to other protestants, mostly calvinistic protestants that hold to what is called "Amill", and maybe "postmill". I responded because he mentioned an ancient heresy, as well as some church fathers, and nonfathers.

Premillennialism (PM), or Chiliasm (chilia is the Greek number for1,000), is an embarrasment for Partial Preterists (PP), Postmillennialists (PoM)and Amillennialists (AM). This short paper will highlight the reasons why it isan embarrassment and why scholars who are not PM must downplay its place in"historic Christianity." But, the way they downplay it actually undermines thevery argument they use against Biblical Preterism (BP).

First, the claimthat "historic Christianity" has always been united in eschatology is false.Charles Hill, professor at Reformed Theological Seminary (and who co-authored abook with Keith Mathison, When Shall These Things Be?), has tried to show thatPM was not the "only" millennialism around in the second century (RegnumCaelorum: Patterns of Millennial Thought in Early Christianity, Eerdmans, 2001)and does so convincingly. However, it is evident that the earliest writings wehave, and the dominant church fathers early on were Chiliasts. Hill lists 2Baruch and 4th Ezra, two early Jewish documents, as chiliastic. I noted beforethat Papias (70 to mid 2nd century A.D.) drew from 2nd Baruch (Hill notes thisas well). Further Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Commodianus,Victorinus, Lactantius were all "definitely chiliasts" to quote Hill, who is anAM.

The differences are noted. Some believed in an intermediate statefor the dead. Some believed that the translated went to Paradise immediately.Others denied a subterranean middle state while others affirmed one. Big issues.

Now, the argument we often hear is that of "historic Christianity" andthat BP overturns it on the matter of eschatology. That is, if BP is true, thenGod failed to guide the church. But, when one notes the confusion early on ineschatology one can equally wonder why God failed to guide the church on thequestion of the Millennium, or why God failed when the Pope and Medievaltheology arose until Luther recovered the doctrine of God's righteousness (hesimply read the Bible himself to discover this doctrine! Go figure). But, seeingthat this argument is as useless as a dead cat, it does point out interestingproblems.

Ireneaus, as we all know by now (those of you that have readmy blogs), claims that Papias got chiliasm from the mouth of Jesus, who taughtJohn, and John taught his elders who taught Papias who was an associate ofPolycarp who taught Irenaeus. All of this, of course, is questioned by the AM,PoM and PP. But, this is the very source of the argument of "historic Christianfaith"!

This is the argument: the Historic Christian Faith has alwaysbeen united from the time of the Apostles onward according to the once and forall time Tradition handed down from them to the leaders of the Second Century.But, the very claim of that Tradition from Tertullian, Justin and Irenaeus isthat the "elders of John" taught PM! Papias is as early as we get to the time ofthe Apostles! How in the world, then, can PP, AM, PoM justify their claims?

It is here that what they really mean by the Historic Christian Faith isthat regardless of what millennial view one hold to, they all believe in afuture Second Coming of Christ. The details don't matter. But, this underminesthe very argument that God guided the church. For, in the end, what it says isthat God guided the church to acknowledge a vague Second Coming, but providedthe same Church with no details! In other words, we have unity in the SecondComing as future, but we all can tolerate each other on the fact that AM, PM, PPand PoM contradict each other in the details (not to mention Dispen-sationalism, Post-trib, Pre-trib, and Mid-trib, just to add a few moremeaningless "details" that God forgot to tell us about).

This is anexample of "unity in spite of the truth"! More dangerous is that this unityminimizes biblical eschatology and the details as unimportant. In fact,"pan-millennialism" runs in most churches probably because most Christians itseems prefer not to talk about eschatology at all. And, when you startmentioning details like 70 Weeks, Seven Headed Beast, Antichrist, 666, andhundreds of other passages (the Bible is 1/3 eschatology) then we either argueor simply leave the conversation since "nobody really knows." Hey, at least weall agree that He is coming back, and that's enough, right?

So much forGod's word. Each word in the Bible is ordained and inspired by God to be there.666 is God's holy and inspired word. "Seven heads" is inspired. "1,000 years" isinspired. God put it there, in fact, He inspired hundreds of minute details andpoints on eschatology – so many that very, very early on debates as to how allthese details worked out occurred. Hence, PM, AM and much later on PoM and PP.What we as BP are asked to believe is that the Church, as a whole, got it wrongon the details of the Second Coming, and that we can tolerate that, but they didnot get it wrong on ONE DETAIL: the he "shall come again" sometime in thefuture! Now do you get the picture? These views must minimize the details ofGod's word as unimportant, not important enough to divide over, but maximize asentence, not in the Bible, but in a man-made Creed: "he shall come again". TheCreed is an interpretation of eschatology and this single interpretation hasbecome the standard as to whether or not one is a "Christian." Shame on usProtestants!

Imagine having a puzzle in front of you and it is not puttogether. In fact, it's 8 puzzles all mixed up together. You have in front ofyou ONE puzzle box with a picture. So, you know what ONE puzzle is to look like,but have NO IDEA what the other 7 look like. That's the situation we have here.God, so they say, has given us 8 puzzles (AM, PoM, PP, PM, Pre-Trib Disp.,Post-Trib, Mid Trib….oh, I forgot Idealism and Historicism) and mixed them alltogether, but gave us ONE PICTURE to work all of them out.

Let's useanother example. If a person tells you eight false propositions and one rightproposition is he to be trusted? Yet, this is what they say God has given to us.Since all of these eschatologies cannot be right, in fact, none of them may beright logically speaking, only one of them may be true. Logically speaking, theycannot all be true. Since, then, we have more views than the one that is right,I am to tolerate more falsehoods than I am to have the one truthful view! Unityin spite of the Truth. And, get this, the BP is not welcome to the conversationbecause he disagrees with the alleged one truthful proposition out all thismess! Folks, dear readers, as you can see, this argument is completely shot.

Now, there is more. The BP must account for all these views as well, andhe must do so on account the framework of BP. In fact, BP is the only view thatcan account for all these views for they all suffer from one fatal defect. Theyare all attempting to apply unfulfilled prophecy to an Age of Fulfillment! Ofcourse none of them will work! God's Word was not intended to make them work!

Secondly, since the PoM, AM, and PP must discount the earliest view ofPM, then they, too, must admit that very early on something got wrong. Only thePM view will work here (and some defectors from BP have rightly seen thisadvocating that PM is the only biblical view).

In the view of BP,prophecy CEASED. There was no "guiding" by the Spirit in the sense of inerrantinterpretation (of course, the Roman Catholic would disagree here). The Churchwas made Perfect by the Spirit in terms of salvation, but this was not a promisethat in the ages to come she would have all her doctrinal ducks in a row fromday one. God was going to teach his church the ethic of love – which is thehardest ethic to follow and the design was, according to Romans 14, to haveseveral views which conflict with each other. In this way we would be stretchedto preach a message of tolerance. We would still have to love one another inspite of differing views – in short, the perfect church in Christ had to grow uplearning one thing: love one another and in this way would demonstratefulfillment of the Law (Romans 12-13).

The BP, on the basis of itsframework, can account for why error crept into the doctrinal formulations ofthe church very early on. We are told to tolerate each other on several views ofeschatology, are we not? On what basis? For the creedolytryst, that basis is notthe Bible, but the Creeds. "He shall come again" is a statement of the Creedthat supposedly is the one detail the Church got right out of all the detailsshe got wrong. We have already exposed that error. The basis for tolerance isthe ethic of love as defined by Paul who was looking forward to the end of theage and the Age to Come which would be characterized by loving one another.There is no Prophet to whom we can ask, "which millennial view is correct?" Weare to figure it out together, working under One God, One Lord, One Faith in OneBody.

Because we have a different solution to the puzzles on the table,we are told that we are not included in that One Faith. Take our solutionelsewhere. You can't play with us. But, because God has made the rules, not men,we are invited by God Himself to sit at the table and begin to put the piecestogether that makes sense of all the other puzzles. Sure, the other kids won'tlike us at first because we seem to be putting together these pieces at a rapidpace. A picture is emerging that makes sense of it all – that explains thereason why all these puzzles are here in the first place. A puzzle that unitesall these puzzles into one picture of what Christ has accomplished for us on theCROSS. A puzzle that will show us what we all have been saying since day one ofthe Church:

Alas! and did my Savior bleedAnd did my Sovereign die?Would He devote that sacred headFor sinners such as I?

At thecross, at the cross where I first saw the light,And the burden of my heartrolled away,It was there by faith I received my sight,And now I amhappy all the day!

But drops of grief canne’er repayThe debt of love I owe:Here, Lord, I give my self away’Tis all that I can do."

My responce:

King Neb, only the christians from Ashia Minor were mostly PM. Ashia minor is where Saint John mostly lived and died, and so the Apostolic Tradition that came from his region mostly held on to "Chilism". Justin Martyre and some others who were from that region but moved to Rome later in life spread that teaching to other parts of Christiandom.

The book of Revelations wasn't embraced by everyone. It was by those who knew John and lived in Ashia minor, but it wasn't embraced by alot of christians outside of Ashia minor. And this is the heart of the issue. The difference between the views is in the details. The belief that you hold to was not held in ancient christiandom, it wasn't defended in ancient christiandom, nor was anyone arguing about the issue. But they were arguing about this. Why? Because the view existed.......where as yours didn't. What you believe, and in the way that you believe it, came extremely late in time.

And out of mostly Calvinistic churches at that. Yes, I know that some Cambellites believe it, but they too came from Prespyterianism, and yes, I know that some Baptists hold to it, but everyone knows that they (that brand of baptists) too came from calvinistic separatist groups in the Church of England.

Your view is not embraced by Eastern Orthodoxy, nor is it embraced by Rome......not to mention most protestants. So why should that view have a place at the table? It should have no place at the table than does End Time views of JW's, SDA'a, and Mormons. They too are all late views and they never had a place in christian historic thought.

Eventually PM was seen as heretical in the 6th century. However, Eastern Orthodoxy won't kick anyone out the church for holding to the views. But those same people who do hold to it, must keep those views to themself, and they must not teach them to the faithful.

For the most part. The onlything that was discarded was a literal understanding of a 1,000 year reign, and a literal understanding of eating all kinds of huge fruit, and foods here on earth.

All of that has been Allegorized. But almost everything else is still held literaly by most Amills in eastern christianity.

PM was always givin a hard time by christians living outside of modern day Turkey and Syria.

And as a former PM myself, I know that it's not hard to switch to an Eastern form of Amill. Most of what I believe is still the same.

The christian east doesn't hide what happened to PM, but PM was never embraced by all regions of historic christianity.

So is it historic? Yes, but it was only limited to a certain region of christianity. But all that doesn't matter when a universal church council took a stand on the issue. What is sealed in stone is sealed in stone.

And this is why I ultimately changed my mind on the issue......for What the Church says goes..........and that's that.

so at least PM has an actual history in historic christianity....people actually argued over it. At least Amill has a history in ancient christianity, but what we don't have is full-preterism. Unlike PM, full-preterism doesn't have a scene in ancient christianity. We know about historic PM, we know about historic Amill, but full-preterism is not christian historic and it never will be. It is new on the scene, and it always will be.

Quoting King NEb:"The differences are noted. Somebelieved in an intermediate state for the dead. Some believed that thetranslated went to Paradise immediately. Others denied a subterranean middlestate while others affirmed one. Big issues."

You will have to change "some" to most. Most believed in an intermediate state for the dead. And in regards to "translation", that is in regards to "the martyres" (those who died for the faith). For those that didn't die for the faith, it was believed that the soul went to Hades(the intermediate state of the dead). This developed when christianity was no longer under constant persecution. So in later times they included "Saints" as being the ones who are "translated" as well.....and not just those who were martyred.

This is still believed today in Eastern Orthodoxy. Just as it can be seen in some of the christian writtings of the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

It's not as divergent as you think. It is only made so by higher critical scholars and maybe other critical scholars who focus on the idea of "the development of doctrine" theory. Yes, it is true that some things did develop, but it is also true that everything didn't develop. So some scholars are just declaring stuff, and begging the question mostly. I like J. Pelikan, but I often find that he does much of the same.

Quote:"It is here that what they really mean by theHistoric Christian Faith is that regardless of what millennial view one hold to,they all believe in a future Second Coming of Christ. The details don't matter.But, this undermines the very argument that God guided the church. For, in theend, what it says is that God guided the church to acknowledge a vague SecondComing, but provided the same Church with no details! In other words, we haveunity in the Second Coming as future, but we all can tolerate each other on thefact that AM, PM, PP and PoM contradict each other in the details (not tomention Dispen -sationalism, Post-trib, Pre-trib, and Mid-trib, just to add afew more meaningless "details" that God forgot to tell us about).

Thisis an example of "unity in spite of the truth"! More dangerous is that thisunity minimizes biblical eschatology and the details as unimportant. In fact,"pan-millennialism" runs in most churches probably because most Christians itseems prefer not to talk about eschatology at all."

Unity doesn't have to mean 100% conformity. And in alot of cases it usually doesn't. we can look at the issue with the Jew and Gentile fued. The council of Acts made it possible to have a Unity in diversity. And this slight diversity in eschatology also confirms the historic witness that the Apocolypse of John wasn't known until around 90 something A.D. When he was freed from the ISLAND of Patmos. You mentioned Irenaeus, but did you know that Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp? Who himself was a disciple of Saint John?

You mentioned Papias, did you know that Saint Papias was friends with Saint John? It is said that he didn't like to read alot of books, instead, he wanted the information straight from the Apostles or Apostolic men. You also mentioned Justin, but like I said before. HE was from the same region, and he later moved west, and spread that form of eschatology to other parts of the christian world. the same is true with Saint Irenaeus.

Before the 6th century, this issue was debatable, but once the Church put it's foot down and decided on the issue then case closed. We see this in regards to the Jewish/gentile fued, and it's the same with this fued. Different views can co-exist until the Church puts its foot down. And when it does, it usually shows the parameters. So yes, there can still be unity in diversity. I don't see a problem with it. The Church had a diverse canon for many centuries, and yet they were all united. And when the Church keeps arguing about something, it will eventually form a regional council or universal council to solve the issue. Just as our first anciestors have done in the book of Acts.

God guides the Church. So if you see a problem, it might be in the area of your doctrinal proposition. It is your doctrine and the way you understand the way God works. That is what must change. Not what happened in history. For God had His hands in it the whole time.

King Neb is an extremely intelligent fellow, and I must admit. At times I find it hard to respond to him. Sometimes, I just have to put my hands up and leave him be. He is too witty.

In the podcast Speaking the truth in Love Ft. Thomas Hopko talks about the issue of fasting. I could be wrong, but I think this is the week of the "Apostles fast".The Orthodox fast for about half the year. I'm still not use to the lifestyle of fasting, but like alot of things in life, it's a journy that one must take one step at a time.

Some say they were the wives of deacons, while others don't see them as being wives of male deacons.

But from what we do know, is that they were mostly used as buffers between bishops(who were always male), Priests(who were always male).

They were used to help baptize women. Back then the custom was to be baptized nude. Now I don't know if this was a universal custom, but deaconess were used to help the Bishop Baptize women converts.

Like I said, they were mostly used as buffers, so that no evil could be spoken of the male bishops and priests.

"Let not any woman address herself to the deacon or bishop without the deaconess." Apostolic Constitutions (compiled around 390 A.D.)

"Ordain also a deaconess who is faithful and holy for the ministrations towards women. For sometimes the bishop cannot send a deacon (who is a man) to the women, on account of unbelievers. You should therefore send a woman, a deaconess, on account of the imaginations of the bad. For we stand in need of a woman, a deaconess, for many necessities. For examplle, in the baptism of women, the deacon will anoint only their forehead with the holy oil. And after him, the deaconess will anoint them. For there is no necessity that the women should be seen by the men." Apostolic Constitutions (compiled around 390 A.D.)

Quote:Originally Posted by Azriel I never knew that J....could you postsome links to where I could read up on that??Thanks fam...mad love, D

The office ofdeaconess was abolished in the West before the eleventh century, but in the Eastit lasted to the end of the Byzantine period in the fifteenth century. It is nowretained only in some Orthodox convents.

St. Paul mentions the firstdeaconess, St. Phoebe of the Church at Cenchrea, in his epistle to the Romans16: 1-2: I commend unto you Phoebe our sister which is a deacon of the churchwhich is at Cenchrea. That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, andthat ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hathbeen a succourer of many, and of myself also.

The interpretations ofthis passage vary. Those who would deny that there ever were ordaineddeaconesses say that the word "deacon" simply means servant, and that anyonecould be a servant, male or female, ordained or not. That interpretation is atodds with the Church's recognition of Phoebe as the first deaconess. It alsofails to take into account that the word "deacon" derived from the Greek andmeaning "helper" or "'minister" is exactly what the deaconess is supposed to be.

Another interpretation, more realistic in view of the historical facts,is that this passage "refutes the hypothesis that [deaconesses] were appointedto administer exclusively to their own sex (Coleman 115). In saying that Phoebe"hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also," St. Paul is saying thatPhoebe ministered unto him, a male. (Some speculate that Phoebe nursed Paul backto health from an illness or injury.)

"The office of deaconess wasalready a position for women in the service of the Christian community inapostolic times, but it was an inferior office until the middle of the thirdcentury (House 97). It appears to have developed gradually, representing only asmall expansion of the role of widow. The Apostolic Constitutions required thata deaconess either be a virgin or a once-married widow, and the Council ofChalcedon (451 AD) forbade marriage after ordination.

The primary dutiesof the deaconess were ministering to women in their houses and assisting atbaptisms. The rationale was that it was not proper for a deacon to go to thehouse of heathens to visit a believing woman, and it was not proper for a man toanoint a woman during baptism and to receive her as she emerged from the water,because men should not see her unclothed. However, anointing the woman's head,the immersion, and the pronouncement of the words of baptism were dutiesreserved to the bishop or presbyter performing the baptism.

By thefourth century, the deaconess was assigning places to female visitors in thechurch, keeping order, admonishing and praying with latecomers, and assisting"in a minor way" at the altar (House 98). What the qualification "in a minorway" is not clear. The required age of sixty was reduced to fifty by theDidascalia and then to forty by the Council at Chalcedon Other duties added toher charge were to care for the sick and poor of her own sex; to be present whenbishops, priests, or deacons spoke with women; anti to introduce womencatechumens.

Several reasons are given for the ultimate demise of theoffice of deaconess:The decline of missionary activity and the resultantdecline in the number of adult baptisms with which deaconesses would assist.The rise of monasticism which, to some extent absorbed and redirected theactivities of deaconesses.The taking over of care of the sick and the poorby the Byzantine state.Abuses on the part of some deaconesses who tookministerial functions upon themselves, such as reading the Scriptures in public.Reaction against the prominent ministry of women in certain hereticalgroups, particularly the Gnostics and the Montanists.The office ofdeaconess was abolished in the West before the eleventh century, but in the Eastit lasted to the end of the Byzantine period in the fifteenth century. It is nowretained only in some Orthodox convents.The office of deaconess wasconferred with an ordination practically identical to that of the deacon. Theordination took place in the altar, which was not the case with ordination forthe inferior offices. The bishop laid his hands on the candidate and recited twoprayers, the first of which invoked divine grace. In matters of precedence shecame after the deacon and was robed with the sticharion and the orarion.

After her ordination, the bishop handed her the chalice which she placedon the altar. She had the right to carry and give Holy Communion to sick women.She could not take a ceremonial part in any of the sacraments or in otherceremonies that required the assistance of a deacon. She was addressed as"reverend, "most honorable" or "most pious." During the time when bishops wereselected from among the married clergy, their wives lived apart from them andwere ordained as deaconesses. They could subsequently remain in society or entera convent.

St. Elizabeth, New Martyr and Grand Duchess of Russia,attempted to restore the ancient office of deaconess in Russia. She waszealously supported by Metropolitan Vladimir of Moscow but opposed by BishopGermogen of Saratov.

Particularly in the Eastern Church, the deaconesseswas an important ceremonial, instructional, and social-care intermediary betweenthe hierarchy and the women members of the Church. Up to the sacking ofConstantinople, during what is now regarded as the golden age of Orthodoxy,deaconesses played a vital role in sustaining the faith of the family. By theirown good example, and through teaching, advising, and counseling, they guidedwives and mothers to the Orthodox way of living. Interestingly enough, asignificant movement to restore the order of deaconess has been occurring in theEastern Church in recent years in fact. St. Nectarios of Pentapolis ordaineddeaconesses for his convent.

An attempt to re-establish the ancientoffice or deaconess in Russia is described in Metropolitan Amvrossy’s account ofthe life of St. Elizabeth, New Martyr and Grand Duchess of Russia. Her effortsto restore the office were whole-heartedly and zealously supported byMetropolitan Vladimir of Moscow. However, Bishop Germogen of Saratov opposed theidea because of a misunderstanding. He even went so far as to accuse her ofhaving Protestant tendencies - but he later repented of this accusation.Nevertheless, the Grand Duchess abandoned her plans and submitted to Churchauthority. It is significant that she did not take advantage of her position asGrand Duchess to achieve her cherished dream.

It is clear from theremarkable lives of women saints which we reviewed in Part 1, and from theaccount of the orders for ordinary women in Part 2, that the role of women inthe first century Church was indeed much more extensive then it is today. InPart 3 we will consider the historical explanations given for the expansive roleof women and what happened to curtail it."

I wouldn't go as far as to say that "verbal icons" are incapable to express such mysteries in anyway. Instead, I would say that "verbal icons" are limited to what they can express, when talking about such mysteries.

But the gist of the podcast pretty much says that ......just in different words.

This is takin from the podcast "speaking the Truth in Love" by Ft. Thomas Hopko. In this he talks about the "Holy Spirit". In eastern christianity, the next day after the day of Pentecost is the the Feast of the Holy Spirit.

As takin from John Hunt's book "Concise Church History: Clear, Simple, and Easy to Follow Overview of Church History". In it he quotes Philip Schaff, in his History of the Christian Church Volume 1: Apostolic Christianity AD 1-100

On page 13 he quotes:

"1. The Judaizers,

The Judaizing tendency isthe heretical counterpart of Jewish Christianity. It so insists on the unity ofChristianity with Judaism, as to sink the former to the level of the latter, andto make the gospel no more than an improvement or a perfected law. It regardsChrist as a mere prophet, a second Moses; and denies or at least whollyoverlooks, his divine nature and his priestly and kingly offices.

TheJudaizers were Jews in fact, and Christians only in appearance and in name. Theyheld circumcision and the whole moral and ceremonial law of Moses to be stillbinding, and the observance of them necessary to salvation. Of Christianity as anew, free, and universal religion, they had no conception. Hence they hatedPaul, the Liberal apostle of the Gentiles, as a dangerous apostate andrevolutionist, impugned his motives, and everywhere, especially in Galatia andCorinth, labored to undermine his authority in the churches. The epistles ofPaul, especially that to the Galations, can never be properly understood, unlesstheir opposition to this false Judaizing Christianity be continually kept inview. The same heresy, more fully developed, appears in the second century underthe name of Ebionism."

Jerusalem Council, AD 49

The problemof the Judaizers is discussed under the Leadership of the Apostles in Jerusalem,Acts 15:6,12James, Simon Peter, Barnabas and Paul all speak and come toan agreement that Gentiles as well as Jews are free from the Jewish ceremonialLaw.

However they must be sensitive to their Jewish Christians and stopeating food sacrificed to idols. Leviticus 17:10-14; 19:26; 1 Corinthians 8:7-13

The issue of sexual immorality was also raised because this was aproblem with many greeks. Thus the first Church council set out the practicaloutworking of relations between Jewish and Greek Christians. The Jews werecautioned against legalism while the Gentiles were cautioned against immorality.Compassion and sensitivity were set over against legalism and hedonism. A letterand two personal witnesses in the person of Judas and Silas are sent back toAntioch to calm the Church there. Acts 15:22-29. The Letter sent from theJerusalem Council follows:

22Then the apostles and elders, with thewhole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antiochwith Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two menwho were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter:The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch,Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us withoutour authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friendsBarnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our LordJesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word ofmouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not toburden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstainfrom food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animalsand from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. Acts 15:22-29 NIV [1]

This issue was already dealt with. Some in our day are trying to get christians to become some type of modern Judaizing / Ebionite group.

JNORM888

[1] pages 13-14 by John Hunt, in the book Concise Church History: Clear, Simple, and Easy to follow overview of Church History. Copyright 2008 by John Hunt Publishing ltd. Published by AMG publishers.

Sho Baraka just came out with a music video. I've been getting on him about putting one out. His album was one of the hotest and most unique christian rap albums that came out last year. The name of this video is higher love.

"(1) Simeon Also having died in the manner shown above,a certain Jew named Justus succeeded him in the episcopate of Jerusalem. Therewere great numbers from the circumcision who came over to the Christian faith atthat time, of whom Justus was one." [1]

JNORM888

As found in "book 3"

[1] pages 99-100 by Eusebius in the book "Eusebius Ecclesiastical Historical: complete and Unabridged. New updated edition", translated by by C.F. Cruse, reprinted 1998 & published by Hendrickson Publishers.

"(1) The spirit of wickedness, however, being unable toshake some in their love of Christ and yet finding them susceptible of hisimpressions in other respects, brought them over to his purpose. These wereproperly called Ebionites7 by the ancients, as those who cherished low and meanopinions of Christ.(2) They considered him a plain and common man andjustified only by his advances in virtue and that he was born of the Virgin Maryby Natural generation. With them the observance of the law was altogethernecessary, as if they could not be saved only by faith in Christ and acorresponding life. (3) Others, however, besides these, but of the samename avoided the absurdity of the opinions maintained by the former, not denyingthat the Lord was born of the Virgin by the Holy Ghost, and yet in like mannernot acknowledging his preexistence, though he was God, the word and wisdom. theyturned aside into the same irreligion, as with the former they evinced greatZeal to observe the ritual service of the Law.(4) These, indeed, thought on the one hand that all theepistles of the apostles ought to be rejected, calling him an apostate from thelaw, but on the other, only using the gospel according to the Hebrews, theyesteemed the others as of but little value.(5) They also observed the Sabbath and other disciplineof the Jews just like them, but on the other hand, they also celebrated theLord's days very much like us in commemoration of his resurrection.(6) Whence, in consequence of such a course, they alsoreceived their epithet, the name of Ebionites, exhibiting the poverty of theirintellect for it is thus that the Hebrews call a poor man."

[1]

I posted this because I was in a conversation with someone who is in a movement that looks very similar to the ancient Ebionites. Just like the Ebionites, they reject the letters of Paul. It's unclear at this time if the people of this movement rejects the New Testament as a whole. I will have to ask them, but there is nothing new under the sun. This new group was formed in recent times by a former Baptist minister. He seems to have an international following. They call themselves "netzarim". They look like a modern version of Ebionitism. So I will call them "neoEbionites".

Their website claims the New Testament was written four hundred years after the death of Christ. Now this is just pure nonsense, yet, you have some people all over the globe believing the false claims of this man. But their website makes alot of false claims like this, and it seems that some people are just eager to eat it up......without double checking the actual facts.

JNORM888

Ebionites 7 "The word ebion, in Hebrew, signifying "poor," seems to allude either to the opinions or the condition of this sect."

This is found in "book 3"

[1] page 93 by Eusebius in the book "Eusebius Ecclesiastical Historical: complete and Unabridged. New updated edition", translated by by C.F. Cruse, reprinted 1998 & published by Hendrickson Publishers.

"Jordan archaeologists have unearthed what could be theworld's oldest church dating back 2,000 years.

Resembling scenes out ofan Indiana Jones movie, scientists explored the underground cavern anddiscovered a cave underneath the church which they believe it is an even moreancient site of Christian worship than the church site above it.

Archaeologist Abdel-Qader Hussein, head of the Rihab Center forArchaeological Studies, Abdul Qader al-Husan told The Jordan Times:'We haveuncovered what we believe to be the first church in the world, dating from 33 ADto 70 AD."

'We have evidence to believe this church sheltered the earlyChristians - the 70 disciples of Jesus Christ.'

Mr Hussein said therewas evidence that the underground cave was used in the first century afterChrist's death, which would make it the oldest Christian site of worship in theworld.

The cave was unearthed in the northern Jordanian city of Rihabafter three months of excavation and shows evidence of early Christian rituals.

It lies under St. Georgeous church, which was built in 230 A.D.

He described a circular worship area with stone seats separated froma living area that had a long tunnel leading to a source of water and said theearly Christians hid there from persecution.A mosaic inscription on thefloor of the later church of St. Georgeous above refers to 'the 70 beloved byGod and the divine' who laid the foundations for the Christian church.ButThomas Parker, a historian at the University of North Carolina-Raleigh, who ledthe discovery of the church in Aqaba, said that while he hadn't seen the Rihabsite, any such claim should be taken with a degree of caution.'Anextraordinary claim like this requires extraordinary evidence,' he said.'Weneed to see the artifacts and dating evidence to suggest such an occupation inthe 1st century A.D.'Mr Parker asked how archaeologists could be certainwhether the 'cave was actually a center of Christian worship"

For those that don't know what the term "deuterocanon" mean. It's the historical ussage for what many puritan protestants and some secularists call "Apocrypha". These books weren't really called "Apocrypha" by most christians in the past. It is true that some did call these books apocrypha, but this is mostly seen in the west from the 5th century on. Before the time of Jerome these books were never called "Apocrypha".

The word "deuterocanon" simply means "secondary". Or the secondary order of books. The historical title for the other set of books is "protocanon". Which means, "primary", or the Primary order of books. Some Orthodox Scholars prefer not to use the term "Deuterocanon" because that is a western Roman Catholic term. But whatever the case, in varying degrees, the Church has always embraced at least some of these books as scripture.

So when did the nonbelieving Jews officially reject the "Deuterocanon"?

Well, in 135 A.D. "Akiba ben Joseph" was made head of the Academy of Jamnia. It was under his influence that the Jews "officially" rejected the Deuto-canon.

He supported "Bar kochba" by calling him the Jewish Messiah. The christians refused to see him as the Messiah and thus the hatred for the Deuto-canon and New Testament books. According to Wiki....and no....I don't really like wicki, and I reject their cynicism in thinking Akiba didn't realy support Bar Kocka in the rebellion.....but one thing they did include was his dislike for christianity and the D.C.'s

"He has, however, no objection to the private reading of theApocrypha, as is evident from the fact that he himself makes frequent use ofEcclesiasticus (W. Bacher, Ag. Tan. i. 277; H. Grätz, Gnosticismus, p. 120).Akiba stoutly defended, however, the canonicity of the Song of Songs, and Esther(Yad. iii.5, Meg. 7a). Grätz's statements (Shir ha-Shirim, p. 115, and Kohelet,p. 169) respecting Akiba's attitude toward the canonicity of the Song of Songsare misconceptions, as I.H. Weiss (Dor, ii. 97) has to some extent shown. To thesame motive underlying his antagonism to the Apocrypha, namely, the desire todisarm Christians—especially Jewish Christians—who drew their "proofs" from theApocrypha, must also be attributed his wish to emancipate the Jews of theDispersion from the domination of the Septuagint, the errors and inaccuracies inwhich frequently distorted the true meaning of Scripture, and were even used asarguments against the Jews by the Christians."

And in Michuta's book he says:

"The first revolt(of 70 A.D.) was a national uprising; thissecond Revolt(around 135 A.D. or maybe 150 A.D.) would be a messianic movement.By means of Akiba's work, a large number of jews joined in the rebellion. EvenSamaritans and pagans joined Bar Cochba in his revolt. However, there was oneJewish sect which refused to join: that obstinate tribe known as christians. TheChristians, a majority of whom were still ethnically jewish, were pressed tojoin in this life and death struggle with Rome, but they refused. To accept barCochba as Messiah, as Akiba insisted, would have been nothing short of Apostasy;and because of their refusal to do so, Christians were treated by the Jews asheretics and traitors. It is this same Rabbi Akiba who is the very first writerto explicity and forthrightly reject the inspiration of both the christian NewTestament and the books of the Deuterocanon. Akiba's declaration is found inTosefta Yahayim 2:13 which reads;

"The Gospel and heretical books do notdefile the hands. The books of Ben Sira and all other books written from thenon, do not defile the hands."

Two outstanding points must be drawn fromthis impious declaration: first, it must have been common knowledge even at thisearly date that the christians accepted the Deutercanon and used it as Scripture(along with the Gospels), otherwise, there would have been no need to ruleagainst them; secondly that at least some jews must also have shared thatacceptance, otherwise Akiba's decree would have been superfluous."Here wehave a hostile witness confirming through his actions that the earliestchristians accepted both the Gospels and the Deuterocanon as inspired and sacredScripture. It was in this watershed event- the naming of the false Messiah BarCochba and the Anathematizing of those who rejected him- which occasioned thevery first unquestionable rejection of the Deuteros by a single, widelyrecognized Jewish authority. It was under Akiba's tenure that a single textualtradition of the Old Testament was first adopted; before this time (as we haveshown) a variety of different texts were in use among the jews. It was here,sometime in the middle of the second Christian century, that Judaism firstadopted an official normative text(i.e. the Masoretic Text or the MT).

pages 68-70 from the book "Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger: the untold Story of the lost books of the Protestant Bible" by Gary G. Michuta

Alot of modern western christians in America don't know this fact of history. But's it's true. It was around 135 A.D. that Jews officially rejected the D.C.'s. Also I would like to make note that alot of people will talk about the council of Jamnia of 90 A.D.

But the truth is, the Jews didn't have church councils in the way that christians do. So there was never really a Jewish council of Jamnia. Jamnia was a Jewish school. A type of rabbinical Academy, so it would be more accurate to call it, the Academy of Jamnia. The first person to call it a "synod" was the Jewish historian H. Graetz(1817-1891). Some christians who read his work speculated it was a jewish version of a christian church council.

And this is where the whole "council of Jamnia of 90 A.D." comes from. It comes from speculation. The sources that we do have about that time never mentions anything about any books being takin out of a canon. Most of the debates was around the Book of Ecclesiastes and maybe the Song of Songs. This Jamnia assembly didn't lay down the limits of the Old Testament canon.

Therefore, in regards to Jamnia, it is more accurate to point to what happened around 135 A.D. for this is when the Jamnia rabbinical school officially rejected not only the deuteros, but also the christian Gospels.