I decided to reread the entire series (or at least try). This will be the first time I've actually read it all straight through, with aMoL. I kind of stopped reading anything WoT related after aMoL came out, and I hadn't reread for a little while before even that came out. So anyway, I started feeling like I might as well start a reread. I plan on posting my thoughts on various subjects and themes, as well as writing a few scholarly articles on the series as I go along.

The first thing I noticed, which I haven't paid much attention to before, is how little focus there is on Perrin at the beginning of tEotW. Rand does some stuff with Mat, but Perrin just kind of pops in a few times to say a few things. He's even relegated to the stable while everyone else in the entire village is out front listening to Moiraine's tale (which also makes it ironic that he later resurrects Manetheren, even though he didn't hear Moiraine talk about it). Maybe RJ gave Mat more time here because he knew Perrin would be a PoV character later on?

Another kind of random thing I'd never noticed before: the raven on top of the inn flies off more or less in the direction where we learn the Waygate is a few books later.

Is Rand's dream about Tar Valon in chapter 9 prophecy? I mean, all dreams are in WoT, but I don't see the significance of it. He goes to TV in ToM, but there isn't a Myrddraal in it, symbolic or otherwise (as far as I know). So is this just saying that everything would have been screwed if Moiraine took Rand to TV, as was her original plan? I'm also not sure what's up with the fact that Rand can't understand anyone in TV.

Was anyone else reminded of Dorothy dancing down the yellow brick road when Rand and everyone else in TV sings and dances off to the White Tower?

I asked Brandon about this. He said he was "pretty sure" Rand wasn't a Dreamer. I might have to dig in the notes again to see if I can find something on Rand's TEOTW dreams; there are others that have hints of prophecy. It may be that RJ simply hadn't figured out yet what he wanted to do with dreams, or decided who should have the talent.

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Originally Posted by rand

I mean, all dreams are in WoT, but I don't see the significance of it. He goes to TV in ToM, but there isn't a Myrddraal in it, symbolic or otherwise (as far as I know).

I saw it as being symbolic of their intended destination, as prefaced by the previous chapter, "A Place of Safety" (a concept referenced often in the dream). They were supposed to go there to be safe from the Shadow, but the dream showed him that the Shadow waited there too (in the form of the Black Ajah).

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

I'm also not sure what's up with the fact that Rand can't understand anyone in TV.

1) it's a dream; 2) it might be some kind of allusion to Rand's past-life memories; Rand accepts the adulation because he's in Lews Therin mode (accentuated by his recognition of Shayol Ghul, but not of Dragonmount, which is just a mountain), but the common tongue is foreign to him. Or, he's in Rand mode and they're speaking/singing the Old Tongue. There's ambiguity about whether he remembers dancing with Egwene or Ilyena. Overall it's pretty clear that RJ was trying to drop hints about Rand being the Dragon Reborn.

Yeah, Rand's first dream definitely seems more like a real dream than an Ishamael dream. He falls several times but doesn't have any cuts or scrapes when he wakes up, so it's not like all the other dreams he has in tEotW.

I forgot (or maybe never noticed) that Taim's presence in Saldaea is mentioned this early on. At least, I assume that he's the source of the rumored "trouble" in Saldaea that everyone in Baerlon is talking about.

How were the rats at the Stag and Lion killed? Did Ishamael actually show up there, like he seemingly does outside Shadar Logoth later on? Can a Fade do this? Did Rand's ta'veren-ness make the cat somehow do it?

Granted, I don't remember a lot of the smaller details from the three Brandon books, but a lot of Min's viewings either seem unfulfilled or too ambiguous to really know. Is Mat's laughing face anything, or just a symbol that he's sort of a trickster type of character? Does Rand's hand getting blown off count as a "bloody" hand? What about the white hot iron?

Yeah, Rand's first dream definitely seems more like a real dream than an Ishamael dream. He falls several times but doesn't have any cuts or scrapes when he wakes up, so it's not like all the other dreams he has in tEotW.

There are a few other dreams that seem like real dreams, but they are short passages, not like the ch. 9 dream or the Ishamael dreams. Keep an eye out for those; some of them are interesting.

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Originally Posted by rand

I forgot (or maybe never noticed) that Taim's presence in Saldaea is mentioned this early on. At least, I assume that he's the source of the rumored "trouble" in Saldaea that everyone in Baerlon is talking about.

It's unclear. I have little doubt Taim was active at that point, since Liandrin informed Moiraine of him a little over two months later in Saldaea (having heard the news before leaving Tar Valon), but Domon's story is also a possibility. Supposedly Taim did not become a Darkfriend until he was released, so it's not clear that Domon's trouble was related to Taim. And this has a strong hint of Domon's trouble:

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Originally Posted by TEOTW 14

Ara's eyes went to the stools behind the tubs, where their clothes and belongings were stacked. He glanced at the bow, but lingered longest over Rand's sword and Perrin's axe. "Is there trouble downcountry, too?" he said abruptly. "In the Rivers, or whatever you call it?"

"The Two Rivers," Mat said, pronouncing each separate word distinctly. "It's the Two Rivers. As for trouble, why—"

"What do you mean, too?" Rand asked. "Is there some kind of trouble here?"

Perrin, enjoying his soak, murmured, "Good! Good!" Thom raised himself back up a little, and opened his eyes.

"Here?" Ara snorted. "Trouble? Miners having fistfights in the streets in the dark of the morning aren't trouble. Or ... " He stopped and eyed them a moment. "I meant the Ghealdan kind of trouble," he said finally. "No, I suppose not. Nothing but sheep downcountry, is there? No offense. I just meant it's quiet down there. Still, it's been a strange winter. Strange things in the mountains. I heard the other day there were Trollocs up in Saldaea. But that's the Borderlands then, isn't it?" He finished with his mouth still open, then snapped it shut, appearing surprised that he had said so much.

This story of Trollocs in Saldaea is being passed around as if it's strange, so it's unlikely to have anything to do with the normal raids from the Blight (which Ara does not seem to have considered before this moment). More likely it is Domon's Trollocs who were no doubt after his seal, which is another tie to Taim even though he hadn't yet been recruited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

How were the rats at the Stag and Lion killed? Did Ishamael actually show up there, like he seemingly does outside Shadar Logoth later on? Can a Fade do this? Did Rand's ta'veren-ness make the cat somehow do it?

Rats are non-domesticated animals so the living rats have reflections in Tel'aran'rhiod. Ishamael could have killed all the rats with the Power in the Dream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Granted, I don't remember a lot of the smaller details from the three Brandon books, but a lot of Min's viewings either seem unfulfilled or too ambiguous to really know. Is Mat's laughing face anything, or just a symbol that he's sort of a trickster type of character? Does Rand's hand getting blown off count as a "bloody" hand? What about the white hot iron?

Some of these things are in the notes, and they have explanations that make it clear RJ ditched those plotlines. It's not entirely clear whether he was going to fulfill them some other way or not, but Brandon fulfilled some of them, apparently in his own way. (There are some later notes written specifically for the last book that I have not seen, so I can't be sure.)

The bloody hand, the white hot iron, and the beggar's staff, for example, were all supposed to be fulfilled through a plot that ended up getting toned down and dispersed. The core of it is the scene in Morgase's court in TEOTW. In early notes, Rand meets his daughter-of-a-queen lover (called Elyn in some drafts), but Morgase is not her mother (being a distinct other character). Her mother in this model was adapted in large part to become Elaida. Rand was to lose his hand (unspecified) and be blinded with hot irons in the come-before-the-queen scene, being forced to wander as a beggar for some time afterward.

Some of these things are in the notes, and they have explanations that make it clear RJ ditched those plotlines. It's not entirely clear whether he was going to fulfill them some other way or not, but Brandon fulfilled some of them, apparently in his own way. (There are some later notes written specifically for the last book that I have not seen, so I can't be sure.)

The bloody hand, the white hot iron, and the beggar's staff, for example, were all supposed to be fulfilled through a plot that ended up getting toned down and dispersed. The core of it is the scene in Morgase's court in TEOTW. In early notes, Rand meets his daughter-of-a-queen lover (called Elyn in some drafts), but Morgase is not her mother (being a distinct other character). Her mother in this model was adapted in large part to become Elaida. Rand was to lose his hand (unspecified) and be blinded with hot irons in the come-before-the-queen scene, being forced to wander as a beggar for some time afterward.

Thanks for the replies.

That's interesting. Was this back when RJ was planning it all as just a trilogy? Rand would have been blinded and crippled in book 1?

Since the courtroom scene takes place in the same book as Min's viewings, I guess RJ decided to keep the viewings and try to include them elsewhere (but never really did)?

A few other random things I noticed:

I wonder if the guy with the scar they meet at the Stag and Lion is just a DF like Rand thinks, and not a Whitecloak informer as Lan says. He doesn't seem to have informed the Whitecloaks of anything, or Rand and co. would have been stopped long before the gate to the Caemlyn Road was already partway open. I noticed there's mention of a strange guy from Baerlon who hid in Emond's Field for a while:

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tEotW 2
It was a good five years since the last time a real stranger appeared in Emond's Field, and he had been trying to hide from some sort of trouble up in Baerlon that nobody in the village understood. He had not stayed long.

I guess it's possible this is the same guy, and he's just a DF informing Ishamael of everything going on in the Two Rivers. Not that it really matters as this is never mentioned again.

Also, did Lan know Logain from prior to the story? I don't remember hearing anything about it later, but it's emphasized twice, so I guess it could be true.

That's interesting. Was this back when RJ was planning it all as just a trilogy? Rand would have been blinded and crippled in book 1?

Since the courtroom scene takes place in the same book as Min's viewings, I guess RJ decided to keep the viewings and try to include them elsewhere (but never really did)?

It was an evolving thing, and I haven't catalogued the progression yet, but the files I recall were very general early concept notes with no division of books. He was not very much for setting things in stone, and I'm guessing what happened is that he wrote the EOTW court scene taking that idea as inspiration, but he still planned on fulfilling the viewings somewhere down the road in a way similar to what he originally envisioned. I remember Dom pointed out that Elyn's mother was also transformed into Berelain in some ways. I just don't remember how. I plan on digging back into the notes when I do a reread.

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Originally Posted by rand

Also, did Lan know Logain from prior to the story? I don't remember hearing anything about it later, but it's emphasized twice, so I guess it could be true.

My guess is he knew of Logain, and referred to him as one would any well-known person.

I remember Dom pointed out that Elyn's mother was also transformed into Berelain in some ways.

So did Elayne after she had gotten herself drunk in TSR (I wonder if that scene was RJ's idea of an in-joke).

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Originally Posted by TSR Chapter 39 - A Cup of Wine

Thom sighed and shook his head. At last he said stiffly, "I was not always a gleeman. I was a bard, once. A Court-bard. In Caemlyn, as it happens. For Queen Morgase. You were a child. You are just remembering things wrong, that's all."

"You were her lover, weren't you?” The flinch of his eyes was enough. "You were! I always knew about Gareth Bryne. At least, I figured it out. But I always hoped she would marry him. Gareth Bryne, and you, and this Lord Gaebril Mat said she looks calf-eyes at now, and . . . How many more? How many? What makes her any different from Berelain, tripping every man who catches her eye into her bed. She is no different—" Her vision shivered, and her head rang. It took her a moment to realize he had slapped her.

[...]

She said the first thing that came into her head. "Rand must think I'm crazy, Thom is a bard, and Berelain isn't my mother after all." Nynaeve gave her the oddest look. "I am a little dizzy for some reason. A nice boy with sweet brown eyes offered to help me upstairs."

Ok, I have a bunch of questions/comments about Shadar Logoth, but a few random things before that:

It seems fairly obvious that Thom knows exactly what Moiraine is looking for in the boys, based on his reaction to Perrin joking about Mat being Aemon reborn. Not sure I ever noticed this before.

After Shadar Logoth, Moiraine tells Nynaeve that channelers can sense people they've Healed (which is how Nynaeve found Egwene in Baerlon). Is this a tEotWism? I don't remember this really being a thing later on in the series.

Shouldn't Egwene be getting channeling sickness too?

Not sure if this is a mistake, but when Rand reaches Baerlon he's overly impressed at the size and "grandeur" of it. But when he reaches Shadar Logoth, he remembers how much better TV looked in his dream from chapter 9. Why was he impressed with Baerlon at all then?

While in Shadar Logoth, Rand has this weird dream:

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tEotW 19
He had been a little boy again, carrying Tam's sword and with a cradle strapped to his back, running through empty streets, pursued by Mordeth, who shouted that he only wanted his hand. And there had been an old man who watched them and cackled with mad laughter the whole time.

It seems to just be a compilation of things Rand heard immediately before falling asleep. Lan in his cradle, Caar One-Hand, and King Balwen laughing. Not sure if there's any deeper meaning.

And a bunch of stuff more directly related to Shadar Logoth:

Terez, do you know if RJ called Finnland Sindhol in the notes? Or is it just something Brandon made up? I was just wondering if that and the name Aridhol were supposed to be connected somehow. I know (well, I think I know) that Brandon confirmed that Mordeth had visited Finnland.

I'm sure there's been theories, but the whole scene with Mordeth has always kind of confused me. What, exactly, is he trying to do to the three boys? He inflates himself, lets out a scream, deflates, then dives at the wall and slides through it. Do any of these actions mean anything?

What is Mordeth anyway? Is he just some random guy? He's described as being "sleek," with a pinched face. Is he somehow one of the Foxes?

Another thought I had connecting Mordeth with Finnland... Mashadar presumably means "shadow something" or something to do with shadow. Could Mordeth have visited the foxes and wished for a means to save Aridhol from darkfriends, but ended up unwittingly sacrificing his shadow in the process? Ie, the Finns took his shadow and created Mashadar, which turned everyone against DFs--but against each other as well. Mordeth is ammune to Mashadar because it's a part of him. I know Mordeth is portrayed as a dick by Moiraine, but all this happened 2000 years ago (or however long it was). Maybe Mordeth had good intentions to save Aridhol, but ultimately got tricked by the Finn? Sorry if this has been mentioned a kazillion times, I know there have been theories connecting Mordeth and Finnland before, but I never really read them.

Also, it seems as though Mat starts acting oddly way before he finds the dagger. Granted, he just discovered he could speak the Old Tongue (which may or may not be part of this oddness), but his actions in Shadar Logoth just seem way off to me. All of a sudden he starts leading Rand and Perrin on an almost obsessive chase to find treasure in the city. I know Mat's kind of crude like that, but still, he seems to carry on about the potential adventure/treasure of Shadar Logoth as if he's drunk.

I guess I'm sort of wondering if something happened to Mat even prior to picking up the dagger--which in itself is pretty strange, especially after Moiraine explains how cursed the place is. The only thing I can think of is the dreams with Ishamael. Could Mat have taken the drink that was offered to Rand as well? Not sure what it was supposed to be, but something seems to be up with Mat between Baerlon and Shadar Logoth (including the Old Blood incident).

Has it ever really been proven conclusively where Mat's luck came from? I know RJ joked about Mat sort of really having the DO's own luck. Could it have come from Mat drinking whatever Ishamael offered him? I don't think Mat's luck really starts until later, though... The goblet scene in Rand's dream seems out of place as it is, though. Ishamael tries to trick Rand into drinking it (I guess?), Rand refuses, and that's that. Why else include that part?

If I recall from reading, Aridhol is in the Compleat Old tongue being tentatively defined "City of the Second Covenant." My guess, purely speculative, it's actually *Nation of the Second Covenant*. It would honestly not surprise me if they got their name by signing into that Second Covenant with the Aes Sedai for the Ten Nations Compact.

Using the naming scheme, that would suggest that Sindhol is possibly "Nation of the First Covenant" (as opposed to the later Second and Third), and their system of doing things, not to mention the protections on the redstone doorways against Aes Sedai, is a matter of an agreement with the Aes Sedai, probably in recognition of some danger they pose to the chaotic nature of that homeland.

It seems fairly obvious that Thom knows exactly what Moiraine is looking for in the boys, based on his reaction to Perrin joking about Mat being Aemon reborn. Not sure I ever noticed this before.

I wouldn't go that far. He still has healthy doubts about Rand in TGH. I'd say he had an inkling, but it wasn't something he liked to think about, and his reaction was supposed to be a reflection of his wandering-storyteller-who-knows-everything persona, and a hint of weird things to come along the lines of Mordeth and Lews Therin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

After Shadar Logoth, Moiraine tells Nynaeve that channelers can sense people they've Healed (which is how Nynaeve found Egwene in Baerlon). Is this a tEotWism? I don't remember this really being a thing later on in the series.

If I recall, Brandon brought it back in AMOL.

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Originally Posted by rand

Shouldn't Egwene be getting channeling sickness too?

In the tree-cave on the way to Baerlon, in Rand's POV:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moiraine

"... but some of the women die, too. It is hard to learn without a guide. The women we do not find, those who live, often become ... well, in this part of the world they might become Wisdoms of their villages." The Aes Sedai paused thoughtfully. "The old blood is strong in Emond's Field, and the old blood sings. I knew you for what you were the moment I saw you. No Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can channel or who is close to her change, and not feel it. " She rummaged in the pouch at her belt and produced the small blue gem on a gold chain that she had earlier worn in her hair. "You are very close to your change, your first touching. It will be better if I guide you through it. That way you will avoid the ... unpleasant effects that come to those who must find their own way."

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Not sure if this is a mistake, but when Rand reaches Baerlon he's overly impressed at the size and "grandeur" of it. But when he reaches Shadar Logoth, he remembers how much better TV looked in his dream from chapter 9. Why was he impressed with Baerlon at all then?

Perhaps because he didn't really think of the dream much until after the Ishamael dreams in Baerlon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

What is Mordeth anyway? Is he just some random guy? He's described as being "sleek," with a pinched face. Is he somehow one of the Foxes?

Brandon said he had been to Finnland. I haven't seen these notes; some were probably held back for the Encyclopedia.

Also, it seems as though Mat starts acting oddly way before he finds the dagger. Granted, he just discovered he could speak the Old Tongue (which may or may not be part of this oddness), but his actions in Shadar Logoth just seem way off to me. All of a sudden he starts leading Rand and Perrin on an almost obsessive chase to find treasure in the city. I know Mat's kind of crude like that, but still, he seems to carry on about the potential adventure/treasure of Shadar Logoth as if he's drunk.

Almost as if he is under some sort of ta'veren influence, wouldn't you say?
Of course, that's rather unlikely; what are the odds that a ta'veren would have been close enough to influence him right then?

__________________
I do not anticipate the invention of a working time machine in the foreseeable future.

Another thought I had connecting Mordeth with Finnland... Mashadar presumably means "shadow something" or something to do with shadow. Could Mordeth have visited the foxes and wished for a means to save Aridhol from darkfriends, but ended up unwittingly sacrificing his shadow in the process? Ie, the Finns took his shadow and created Mashadar, which turned everyone against DFs--but against each other as well. Mordeth is ammune to Mashadar because it's a part of him. I know Mordeth is portrayed as a dick by Moiraine, but all this happened 2000 years ago (or however long it was). Maybe Mordeth had good intentions to save Aridhol, but ultimately got tricked by the Finn? Sorry if this has been mentioned a kazillion times, I know there have been theories connecting Mordeth and Finnland before, but I never really read them.

I speculated at one point that Mashadar actually was the weapon intended to fight against the Shadow, but went out of control and destroyed Aridhol instead. That would seem to fit nicely with your theory that it was a Finn creation.

__________________Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known

Last edited by Zombie Sammael; 07-28-2014 at 06:38 AM.
Reason: Lupus reminded me that there was something from the books I was missing

I speculated at one point that Mashadar actually was the weapon intended to fight against the Shadow, but went out of control and destroyed Aridhol instead. That would seem to fit nicely with your theory that it was a Finn creation.

Cool. Guess we'll have to wait for the Encyclopedia to (hopefully) get more info. I found the Shadar Logoth stuff interesting during this reread, mostly because a lot of it's still pretty weird/mysterious even after the whole series is done.

First, there are some very strange somewhat-out-of-context quotes regarding Mistress al'Vere:

Quote:

tEotW 2
Toward Rand [Mistress al'Vere's] motherliness extended to warm smiles and a quick snack whenever he came by the inn, but she did as much for every young man in the area. If she occasionally looked at him as if she wanted to do more, at least she took it no further than looks, for which he was deeply grateful.

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tEotW 25
She was Ila, Raen's wife, a head taller than her husband, and she soon made Perrin forget about the color of her clothes. She had a motherliness that reminded him of Mistress al'Vere...

Incidentally, the second quote seems to jump out of Perrin's PoV for some reason.

Ok, so Ishamael sends Rand and the others into a dream version of, presumably, the Ways. Any reason why, or is it just a menacing environment Ishy likes? Rand asks an interesting question while he's in this dream. Are Mat and Perrin in there with him? Or does Ishamael have to stage three identical dreams back to back, basically just reading from a script?

I don't remember if this is answered in tSR, but why don't the Tinkers ever travel into the Two Rivers? And why are they there in tSR, then? (I'm thinking the second question is answered in tSR, but I don't remember).

On a related note, it's said that the Tinkers "cross the Waste all the time." Why? The Aiel don't interact with them at all, so they aren't trading or looking for the Song. So are they just chilling out there? My point is, it seems like a weird place to travel just for the hell of it. It's mentioned several times (in chapter 25) that they "cross" the Waste. I'm assuming this just sort of means criss-cross, but are they going all the way to Shara?

So, it seems pretty apparent now that the murdered group of Maidens must have stumbled upon the Town, and the Trollocs chased them down (somehow?) to preserve the secret. But what was that last surviving Maiden trying to say specifically? Basically all she says is that the DO plans to "blind the Eye of the World" and "slay the Great Serpent." Was Ishamael trying to find the Eye before the Dragon Reborn could, using the nearby Red Veils to search for it? And then have him, or the Red Veils, use it up before Rand could get there?

I believe it is confirmed or at least strongly implied that the Tinkers cross the waste in order to trade with the Sharans. Presumably, they look for the Song in Shara, too.

I think your summation of Ishamael's intentions is probably correct. Remember, at this stage in the story Ishamael was the Dark One, as far as anyone knew. "Slay the great serpent" and "blind the eye of the world" might have been two different goals to Ishamael, but as far as anyone else (including random Maidens of the Spear) knew, they were a single intention; both sound like "end the world" type plans, even if one is actually only a step towards the other.

__________________Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

I don't remember if this is answered in tSR, but why don't the Tinkers ever travel into the Two Rivers?

Probably because there's no way out except the way they came in. They prefer to travel through places, and in the Two Rivers you have to go back through the same towns on the way out. Everyone in the Two Rivers thinks the Tinkers steal children (and everything else too), so it's probably best for the Tinkers to avoid it.

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Originally Posted by rand

And why are they there in tSR, then? (I'm thinking the second question is answered in tSR, but I don't remember).

The Whitecloaks forced the Tinkers to cross into the Two Rivers so that they couldn't spread news of Whitecloak presence in the area. Byar and Fain were at cross purposes on that matter; it was Byar who gave the order that they not be allowed to escape, but Fain wanted the news to spread because he was trying to draw Rand to the Two Rivers.

The Tinkers definitely do go to the Two Rivers occasionally as Mistress Luhhan has a tinker-mended pot.

Quote:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 25 - The Traveling People

"It will be getting dark soon, Elyas," Perrin said. "We have to camp somewhere. Why not with them, if they'll have us?" Mistress Luhhan had a Tinker-mended pot that she claimed was better than new. Master Luhhan was not too happy about his wife's praise of the Tinker work, but Perrin wanted to see how it was done. Yet there was a reluctance about Elyas that he did not understand. "Is there some reason we shouldn't?"

__________________Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."