Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not recall that right now. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
So if you have a wire mesh made of 3 millimetres, you have 3in fact a 6 millimetre thickness of that particular layer, 4because the wire mesh overlaps? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I presume so, but again I would like to see -- there is 6basically one very particular piece of eyewitness 7evidence, so we can look at eyewitness evidence and then 8we can reconstruct exactly how thick those wire mesh 9columns are. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is why I was asking what the overall dimensions of 11these alleged wire mesh columns were, so we could form an 12impression of their practicability. 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Let us look at Kuhler's testimony. If we can stop reading 14the Taiber testimony. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I want you at some stage to complete reading 16Taiber. 17MR IRVING: Can we continue reading Taiber then, my Lord? That 18is probably a good idea. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then you come back to the wire mesh columns. 20MR IRVING: We have to come back to the wire mesh columns 21tomorrow. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 183, just complete it to the end of 23184. 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
"The sides of these pillars which went up through the roof 25were of heavy wire mesh. Inside this grid, there was 26another other fine mesh and inside of that further very

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1fine mesh. Inside this last mesh cage there was a 2removable can that was pulled out with a wire to recover 3the pellets from which the gas had evaporated. Besides 4that in the gas chamber there were electric wires running 5along the two sides of the main beam supported by the 6central concrete pillars. The ventilation was installed 7in the walls of the gas chamber. Communication between 8the room and the ventilation installation proper were 9through small holes along the top and bottom of the side 10walls. These lower openings were protected by a kind of 11muzzle, the upper ones by whitewash perforated metal 12plates", and these are plates, some of six were found and 13analysed by the Krakau Forensic Institute. 14MR IRVING: That is your presumption? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is my presumption. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have no reason for saying that, saying that these are 17identical, other than your presumption? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It seems that the description of these plates is exactly 19the same, of the ones which were analysed in Krakau. 20 "The ventilation system of the gas chamber was 21coupled to ventilation ducts installed in the undressing 22room. This ventilation system, which also served as a 23dissection room, was driven by electric motors in the roof 24space of the crematorium. 25 "The water tap was in the corridor and a rubber 26hose was run from it to wash floor of the gas chamber. At

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1the end of 1943 the gas chamber was divided in two by a 2brick wall to make it possible to gas smaller transports. 3In the dividing wall there was a door identical to that 4between the corridor and original gas chamber. Small 5transports were gassed in the chamber furthest from the 6entrance from the corridor. 7MR IRVING: I would like to stop you there, if I may, and now 8ask you what Taiber has actually told us about the gassing 9procedure. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have not quite finished yet. Can we just 11go to the middle of 184, and then that is a convenient 12point I think to ask that question. 13MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord, yes. 14A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
"The undressing room and the gas chamber were covered 15first with a concrete slab and then with a layer of soil 16sown with grass. There were four small chimneys, the 17openings through which the gas was thrown in that rose 18above gas chamber." 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
So this is the roof we are looking at on these large 20colour photographs, is that correct? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, or the remains of the roof to be very precise. 22"These openings were closed by concrete covers with two 23handles." 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Not wooden, concrete covers? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is what it says, yes. "Over the undressing room the 26ground was higher than the level of the yard and perfectly

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1flat. The ventilation ducts led to pipes and the chimneys 2located in the part of the building above the corridor and 3undressing room. I would point out that at first the 4undressing room had neither benches nor clothes hooks and 5there were no showers in the gas chamber. These fittings 6were not installed until Autumn 1943 in order to 7camouflage the undressing room and the gas chamber as a 8bathing and disinfestation facility. The showers were 9fitted to small blocks of wood sealed into the concrete of 10the gas chamber. There were no pipes connected to the 11showers from which no water ever flowed. 12 "As I have already said, there was a lift in 13the corridor or rather a goods hoist. A temporary hoist 14installed pending delivery of the electric lift to carry 15the corpses to the ground floor." End of quotation. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
That final paragraph is quite interesting, is it not, 17because we now have the documents giving the actual dates 18for the arrival of the provisional lift. I believe it was 19finally ready in September 1943, is that correct? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, it was ready in March. The history of the lift is a 21very confused history, because they did not get the lift 22they wanted. They had the lift installed originally for 23750 kilograms carrying capacity, and then they tried to 24improve on that one, since it did not seem to be enough, 25by doubling the cables on which this lift, it was 26basically a kind of building site hoist, so that it could

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1carry 1500 kilograms. This was all in something like 2March 1943. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. So we have heard the description from Henrich 4Taiber of the liquidation procedure. On what other 5eyewitnesses did you base the ---- 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry I will have to interrupt you, 7Mr Irving. I think if you have a case to put in relation 8to Taiber, that he is unreliable or that for some reason 9his account is not to be credited, I think it is right 10that you should put it. 11MR IRVING: Very well. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be your case is simply that all the 13eyewitnesses are to be treated with caution and you go no 14further. 15MR IRVING: I was go to treat them all summarily, in the same 16manner, and just ask the simple question, did they all 17give the same description in broad terms of people going 18up on the roof opening these manhole covers, pouring the 19cyanide capsules in. If I may ask the question like that, 20the eyewitnesses that you have, Taiber, which other ones 21would you rely on? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In this case, as you mentioned Broad describes seeing it 23from some distance. Then later there are eyewitnesses who 24have been, other sonderkommando who would have made 25statements later, in 1960s, and of course Muller with his 26original statement for 1946 which is in the book by Kuhler