geedee ponders geezerdom

Check out this photograph of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra in 1960. What is missing from this orchestra?

That’s right, women! Look at all those bald pates. Exactly how many women were in the Philharmonic in 1962? Zero. A program from that year turns up names like Leopold, Oscar, Carlo, Mordecai, Engelbert, Stanley, Sol, Rudolph, Eugene...

In contrast, here is a recent photo of the Philharmonic. At present over one third of the orchestra is female; in fact there are more female violinists than male ones. That percentage in NY is still low - across all professional orchestras in the US about 48.6% of the musicians are female. But compared to European orchestras we’re doing pretty well - less than 14% of the Berlin Philharmonic is female, and don’t even get me talking about the Vienna Philharmonic.

So what has made the difference? Why have American orchestras increased the number of women in the ranks, but European orchestras have not?

The difference is almost universally chalked up to the institution of the blind audition, in which the auditionees play for an audition committee from behind a screen. These began to be common in the US in the 1970s, and eventually the norm in the 1980s, after prominent anti-discrimination suits, mostly involving racial discrimination, were won by professional musicians. Women were warned not to wear high heels or perfume, or to speak aloud, so that their gender could not be used against them. All of a sudden, as many women were winning auditions as men. The institution of blind auditions was a seminal moment in women’s rights in the arts. (And yet, the proportion in the major orchestras is still not even - probably because auditions are held only when there are retirements, and many of the male musicians from the 1960s and 70s are still playing. And only one major US orchestra is conducted by a woman - but then, how could you have a blind audition for a conductor?)

In Europe, however, blind auditions are not the standard, and in some orchestras (notably the Vienna Philharmonic) the anti-woman bias is a part of the culture of the organization.

So what, you ask, does any of this have to do with running? Well, gdionelli has been pondering her future as a runner. How many of you have said, "I want to be SeniorRunner when I grow up?" I know I have, but as I look around at races there are very few over-60 women, and at the little local races most of those are walkers. I’ve also been looking at race results for the age groups older than my current one, and I’m not impressed.

Since I used the NY Phil as an example, I’ll stick with NY. This is not a scientific survey, just a sampling, but I always have my eye on my age group and older when I look at race results, and usually see something similar. Look at the geezer finisher demographics from the 2011 NYC Marathon:

Age Group Men Women

60-64 1,106 291

65-69 363 87

70-74 158 28

75-79 35 6

80-89 9 4

Anybody see a discrepancy here? And yet, if you look back at the younger groups, there were actually more 25-29 year old female finishers than male ones. Perhaps older women aren’t doing the longer marathon distance for some type of physical reason? After all, we all know that women are more susceptible to, for example, ACL injuries than men. OK, then let’s look at results from a shorter distance, the 2011 NYC Half Marathon:

Age Group Men Women

60-64 135 49

65-69 45 18

70-74 12 5

75-79 5 1

80-89 2 0

Yet in the same year, women in the 25-29 age group outnumbered men 1333 to 765. It seems clear that, in New York, at least, fewer women are running in their geezer years. What’s up with this? Is there something physiological that causes women to stop running at a certain age? Are there lifestyle factors, such as grandmother duties, that make women gradually give it all up? Or was there a seminal moment like the introduction of blind auditions in orchestras that gave younger women the push, hence the larger numbers amongst the younger age groups? If that is the case, the demographics should continue to change so that the race results in a couple of decades will show more equal numbers of male and female codgers.

Perhaps the seminal moment was the passage of Title IX in 1972? Certainly it opened up doors for female athletes, leading to cultural changes that were more accepting of women in athletics. Or maybe it was the example of a trailblazer, such as Kathleen Switzer, that started the swing of the pendulum? I welcome your speculations and theories.

Of course, the human body does wear out, and one can’t always return from injury. But do I have as good a chance as, say, Atombuddy, to continue running into my 70s? I submit that I do, and I have every intention of running the Marshall Marathon in 2030. I won’t be fast, in fact I may be last, but I’ll finish. Women of the Loop, who is with me?

As a man who is also going to continue to run as he ages, I hope to see many many more older women running. As someone who had a college roommate who played in three orchestras at the time, I never really paid attention to the sex of the musicians. I guess that proves the value of the blind audition to me.

I have had very similar reflections. Women of my age were not encouraged, or even allowed to play sports in high school, except maybe gymnastics, tennis or swimming. When a group of us wanted to run cross country in 1969, the coach designated us as the JV team. My senior year, at another high school, women's soccer was a "club" instead of a sport, and we did not have uniforms or any of the benefits the guys enjoyed. Times have changed and younger generations can't imagine a time when women were discouraged from running for fear of losing a uterus, or worse yet, never landing a husband. You and I are trailblazers. The competition is scarce.

This just made the statistician in me want down more numbers to play with!

My gut reaction would be the fact that running wasn't as big for women until later, possibly after the 70's or even later when more women started doing great things in high profile races. But I don't know. I do know that I hope to be that 80 something year old woman at the local 5K!

As a man who is also going to continue to run as he ages, I hope to see many many more older women running. As someone who had a college roommate who played in three orchestras at the time, I never really paid attention to the sex of the musicians. I guess that proves the value of the blind audition to me.

Well, honestly you shouldn't have to pay attention to the gender of the musicians! But we women in the field of classical music certainly appreciate the efforts of those who made it possible for us to win a fair audition!

This just made the statistician in me want down more numbers to play with!

My gut reaction would be the fact that running wasn't as big for women until later, possibly after the 70's or even later when more women started doing great things in high profile races. But I don't know. I do know that I hope to be that 80 something year old woman at the local 5K!

The numbers are out there, but a comprehensive statistical study of race results was a little too daunting for a musician like me. There have been studies done, however, about women in orchestras!

Title IX, and the attitude change that has come along since makes all the difference. The older you get the less likely you are to actually start running, and if it was highly discouraged when you were young you are more likely to have a bias against it yourself. I'm not really sure why it has swung so that there are now significantly MORE younger women than younger guys running many distances.

There really is even more of a gender gap when you add in the fact that woman typically outlive men.

I definitely think the Katherine Switzers of the world had a big hand in changing the numbers to what they are today. As time goes by I do believe we will see geezerettes equalling the number of geezer runners.

Title IX, and the attitude change that has come along since makes all the difference. The older you get the less likely you are to actually start running, and if it was highly discouraged when you were young you are more likely to have a bias against it yourself. I'm not really sure why it has swung so that there are now significantly MORE younger women than younger guys running many distances.

It certainly wasn't encouraged, at least not in my family. I'm just glad I bucked the trend and started in my early 50s!

There really is even more of a gender gap when you add in the fact that woman typically outlive men.

I definitely think the Katherine Switzers of the world had a big hand in changing the numbers to what they are today. As time goes by I do believe we will see geezerettes equalling the number of geezer runners.

Yes, I too thought about the lifespan difference. I look forward to that day when the numbers are equal!

Younger generations can't imagine a time when women were discouraged from running for fear of losing a uterus, or worse yet, never landing a husband.

Here's a "younger generation" who gets it!! The Amish notoriously lag behind the rest of society in any kind of enlightenment, so I was told countless times, as the only female in the community (of 300+ people) who "jogged" for fun. "You won't have kids". "You'll have female problems". "You won't get a husband because men don't like muscles on a girl."

I have 2 healthy kids, my female plumbing is quite robust, and DH wants me to run forever because he loves my running physique. And a little part of my Amish past cheers every day I run, because I'm proving those naysayers wrong.

Fascinating stuff, GD! I'd love to have more feminine pulchritude in the geezer ranks!

And it will happen, as the female participant "bulge" in the lower age groups flows through to the older age groups. A recent study stated that women were only 11% of marathon finishers in 1980 vs. 42% in 2012.

Fascinating stuff, GD! I'd love to have more feminine pulchritude in the geezer ranks!

And it will happen, as the female participant "bulge" in the lower age groups flows through to the older age groups. A recent study stated that women were only 11% of marathon finishers in 1980 vs. 42% in 2012.

My theory is that the numbers will even out as those younger runners get older and continue their racing habits. I think "mature" women may not be as comfortable competing because most of them didn't do it in their youth. Maybe they think they'll make fools of themselves, or maybe they think it's just "too late." But as you and Unlikely Runner have proven, it's never too late.

My theory is that the numbers will even out as those younger runners get older and continue their racing habits. I think "mature" women may not be as comfortable competing because most of them didn't do it in their youth. Maybe they think they'll make fools of themselves, or maybe they think it's just "too late." But as you and Unlikely Runner have proven, it's never too late.

Let's just say I'm not going to be investing in those Vienna Philharmonic gold coins any time soon.

You're probably right about older women competing. I know there are older women I see running in the park whom I never see at races.

When I ran XC in High School we had 1 girl on our team, and that was only in my Senior Year, before that there were no girls.

Now I coach for the same High School, and we have more girls on the roster than guys. If I could have all of my injured runners back right now we could field two Varsity Teams on the girls side. With the guys I have one team plus 2 JV.

That is a huge difference. With luck, most of them will stick with it into adulthood, and continue to change those AG ratings.

I think it's interesting how both sexes, according to your stats above, drop off considerably in participation after age 64. Why is that? That's around the time many people retire, so you'd think they'd have more time to devote to physical fitness.

When I ran XC in High School we had 1 girl on our team, and that was only in my Senior Year, before that there were no girls.

Now I coach for the same High School, and we have more girls on the roster than guys. If I could have all of my injured runners back right now we could field two Varsity Teams on the girls side. With the guys I have one team plus 2 JV.

That is a huge difference. With luck, most of them will stick with it into adulthood, and continue to change those AG ratings.

That's encouraging! Now if we could just get more 50-something women to start running!

I think it's interesting how both sexes, according to your stats above, drop off considerably in participation after age 64. Why is that? That's around the time many people retire, so you'd think they'd have more time to devote to physical fitness.

I think the lack of women in the older age groups may be a pipeline thing, or it could be secondary to attrition, or a combination of both. In academic medicine, lack of women in full professorships, at least in the 1960-2000's was mostly a pipeline issue. Now, however, with many women in junior academic ranks, it appears that lack of full professors is due to a higher drop out rate for women than men.

For running, I am hopeful that these women in the 20-45 year old age groups will continue to run and there will be more balance in the numbers of men and women in the age groups. I am pre-title nine, so sadly had no encouragement in sports. I did ballet! Started running around age 49.

I think the lack of women in the older age groups may be a pipeline thing, or it could be secondary to attrition, or a combination of both. In academic medicine, lack of women in full professorships, at least in the 1960-2000's was mostly a pipeline issue. Now, however, with many women in junior academic ranks, it appears that lack of full professors is due to a higher drop out rate for women than men.

For running, I am hopeful that these women in the 20-45 year old age groups will continue to run and there will be more balance in the numbers of men and women in the age groups. I am pre-title nine, so sadly had no encouragement in sports. I did ballet! Started running around age 49.

I am pre-Title IX, as well, or at least I was in high school when it started. But I doubt I'd have been active anyway - it was never encouraged in my family.

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