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Master Commander Ajax

Posted 03 December 2017 - 10:18 AM

Wasnt it implied that the Emperor obtained the knowledge required to create the Primarchs from the Chaos Gods?

They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.

Xenith

Posted 03 December 2017 - 07:57 PM

It is all too easy to describe the emperor as a god, because of all his power.

But in naming him as a god we are diminishing his achievements.
It one thing for a god to achieve all the emperor has done. I would expect a god to do all this and more.

But for a man to do all this is quite a feat, to rival a the achievements of a god and still remain a man is something else.
That is the emperor true gift, to show man that he does not need gods, man can do it without the divine.

To look at all the emperor achieved and not call him a god belittles him.

If you think a god should be able to do more than the emperor, why have the chaos gods not dominated the galaxy yet?

Urriak Urruk

Posted 03 December 2017 - 08:55 PM

Urriak Urruk

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I was under the impression that a "soul" is in itself a warp construct, the warp manifestation of a person. And that Daemons are just... manifestations of emotions, but their usually negative emotions (anger, lust, etc) making them essentially evil.

So a daemonhost is essentially a person possessed by a rampant emotion its own independent thoughts.

And a Primarch is really just a person with an enhanced physical shell, but also a very powerful soul.

Daemon Princes/Primarchs are those that surrender their soul to the Dark Gods, or a specific one, getting "enhanced" by these emotions. This also sort-of explains why the Daemon Primarchs are more powerful than your average Daemon Prince, as their soul was initially more powerful than a normal one.

So long story short... no, the Primarchs are not man-made Daemons. Primarchs are multi-faceted characters with deep personalities (or at least they should be if not for bad writing), while pure Daemons (not Daemon Princes) are typically manifestations of particular emotions or ideas.

And before you say "ANGRON IS VERY ONE-DIMENSIONAL" he has nails in his head.

slitth

Posted 03 December 2017 - 09:16 PM

It is all too easy to describe the emperor as a god, because of all his power.

But in naming him as a god we are diminishing his achievements.
It one thing for a god to achieve all the emperor has done. I would expect a god to do all this and more.

But for a man to do all this is quite a feat, to rival a the achievements of a god and still remain a man is something else.
That is the emperor true gift, to show man that he does not need gods, man can do it without the divine.

To look at all the emperor achieved and not call him a god belittles him.

If you think a god should be able to do more than the emperor, why have the chaos gods not dominated the galaxy yet?

To call a name a god as divine is nothing more than stating what it is, it not really a compliment.

You fell that better if all you hard word was the efforts of a human? Or will it just be stating the obvious?

But if you look at a man and call all what he has achieved as godlike. Now that's high praise.

And the chaos gods can no dominated the galaxy because their nature prevent them to do so.

For the gods, total victory is defeat.

Who do you fight then you are only one left in the galaxy?

Who do plot against when the great game is won?

What it the next step when the galaxy has stagnated?

Where do you find the next extreme when everything is tried?

The gods are powerful because of the opposition they and their followers face.

Volt

Posted 04 December 2017 - 06:52 AM

Volt

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Primarchs are not Daemons. At the most literal definition, Daemons are a part of their creating god. The Daemon Primarchs, for example, along with all Greater and Lesser Daemons, literally exist at the whim of their God, an entity that they are a part of. This is not the case with Primarchs. The power of the Immaterium was used in their creation, and all are attuned to it, some far more than others, but that doesn't make them Daemons. We have seen nothing to indicate that the Emperor could absorb them at a whim, or that they are simply manifestations of his will. They are as much creatures of science as they are of the warp.

You could describe them as creatures of the warp and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but daemons? Completely different. It's like looking at beer and bread and saying they are both the same because they are made from the same thing. They're unique.

As for some of the points on this page

Fabius did clone, for all we know, the perfect Primarch. The Horus clone in Talon of Horus appeared to be a perfect clone, right down to possessing Horus' memories, and forcing the gods to be concerned that this clone was upsetting the balance of things, as Horus was meant to be dead. (rip bald angry daemon jesus)

The Talon of Horus was used to kill the Emperor, so the reaction Khayon gets is also from the fact that His blood is also dried on the blades of the weapon, the psychic resonance of Sanguinius' murder cursing his sons doesn't make him a Daemon. Emotions are a big deal in the warp, and that weapon killed countless thousands of people, including betrayed sons, and then Horus' brother and father, and then Horus' clone himself. That's a lot of evil and betrayal staining the weapon, and those connected to the people slain by the weapon are going to be far more affected than others who didn't have their genetic ancestor brutally torn apart by the Talon. We'll get more information on this when bald angry daemon jesus murders him in a BL novel within a couple of years.

I will say though that the reality is that there is a lot of mystery surrounding the Primarchs' conception, which is as it should be, and I very much doubt we'll ever conclusively learn what kind of bargains the Emperor made (or didn't make) to create them. But it seems reasonably clear to me that while they are psychically attuned and at least partly made of the warp, that they are clearly not Daemons, ergo why they are so special.

Horus wasn't a perfect clone. The Emperor literally erased his soul to prevent its resurrection, and that soul is as important as the Primarch's biology to their identity. Which also explains why the Clone of Horus was frankly pathetic, and died to a tiny force of Black Legionaires which: had it been a perfect clone, it should have completely wiped out with no difficulty.

Xenith

Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:02 AM

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Horus wasn't a perfect clone. The Emperor literally erased his soul to prevent its resurrection, and that soul is as important as the Primarch's biology to their identity. Which also explains why the Clone of Horus was frankly pathetic, and died to a tiny force of Black Legionaires which: had it been a perfect clone, it should have completely wiped out with no difficulty.

Yes, we don't know what Bile put in the Horus Clone shell, but it wasn't Horus. Horus bested Sanguinius, and would not have been one shot by a pre-gifted Abby.