so I'm having an Facebook debate with a guy living in the States who is from Saudi Arabia and the ban on Christians preaching in the country been brought up. The guy says the ban is the same as the Vatican prohibiting Muslims from preaching. Well I don't know anything about Muslims being prohibited from preaching in the Vatican, but do state if that is true, the ban is only meant for the city not the entire country of Italy. The guy goes on the same the ban in Saudi Arabia is the same as the ban in the Vatican and I say no because the ban on Muslims preaching only goes for the Vatican while the ban on Christians preaching in Saudi Arabia is throughout the entire country. The guy goes on to say Christians are allowed to preach in countries around Saudi Arabia just like the Vatican. I said this does not make Saudi Arabia look any better.

The first is: it' s tu quoque fallacy. How does any perceived views on the VATICAN justify policies towards Christians in Saudi Arabia?

Since when is the pope the authority Muslims ask when deciding policies?

The Second one is:

His assertion is factually inaccurate. It is not permitted to PREACH Islam in Christian Churches in the Vatican. However, the Vatican has an office specially for inter-faith dialogue, looking for common understanding and ways to cooperate. Muslims make virtually no use of that. The Vatican wants dialogue and mutual respect, not dahwa. Vatican city is almost exclusively occupied by clergy, celibate men and women, committed to the church, so only an insane Muslim would think that that is a good place to go preaching. Muslims can visit, they can have dialogues, they can even go an say Muslim prayers, but that is as far as it goes.

Did you know there has been a small mosque inside the City of the Vatican since about 1500? It was built because the son of an Ottoman ruler was staying there.Everybody favorite villain pope, Alexander VI, built it. It's tiny, though, and I don't think it gets any use these days.

Also, the land for Rome's biggest mosque was leased to them by... pope John Paul II, the then land owner.

Third issue:

It is dangerous not only to preach but to merely practice your own beliefs in Saudi Arabia. It is not much different in other Muslim countries. You may not even bring a prayer book for your own use into Saudi Arabia. Police raids on Filipino workers meeting on a Sunday for prayers in the privacy of their own homes are commonplace.

So the comparison is false for two reasons:

Whatever the Vatican does or does not do, does not justify what a Muslim ruler does.

The first is: it' s tu quoque fallacy. How does any perceived views on the VATICAN justify policies towards Christians in Saudi Arabia?

His claim since the Vatican is holy to Christians Muslims are not permitted to preach in the city. According to his logic this is why Christians are not allowed to preach in Saudi Arabia because the country is holy to Muslims.

I told him not all Christians are Catholic.

Since when is the pope the authority Muslims ask when deciding policies?

The Second one is:

His assertion is factually inaccurate. It is not permitted to PREACH Islam in Christian Churches in the Vatican. However, the Vatican has an office specially for inter-faith dialogue, looking for common understanding and ways to cooperate. Muslims make virtually no use of that. The Vatican wants dialogue and mutual respect, not dahwa. Vatican city is almost exclusively occupied by clergy, celibate men and women, committed to the church, so only an insane Muslim would think that that is a good place to go preaching. Muslims can visit, they can have dialogues, they can even go an say Muslim prayers, but that is as far as it goes.

Thanks.

Did you know there has been a small mosque inside the City of the Vatican since about 1500? It was built because the son of an Ottoman ruler was staying there.Everybody favorite villain pope, Alexander VI, built it. It's tiny, though, and I don't think it gets any use these days.

Also, the land for Rome's biggest mosque was leased to them by... pope John Paul II, the then land owner.

I didn't know that.

Third issue:

It is dangerous not only to preach but to merely practice your own beliefs in Saudi Arabia. It is not much different in other Muslim countries. You may not even bring a prayer book for your own use into Saudi Arabia. Police raids on Filipino workers meeting on a Sunday for prayers in the privacy of their own homes are commonplace.

This guy states Christians are allowed to wear crosses and bring Bibles into Saudi Arabia.

So the comparison is false for two reasons:

Whatever the Vatican does or does not do, does not justify what a Muslim ruler does.

The information about the Vatican is grossly misleading.

Perhaps ask him why the Saudis are afraid of Christians....

I did ask him that. He replies by stating he wishes the ban would be lifted so people will see the real Islam.

People are NOT allowed to bring ANY non-Muslim literature to Saudi Arabia. If you have any such thing on you and you get found out, you will get problems. If you have only ONE text, you MAY just get get away with it, depending on the whim of the customs officer and the size of the bribe you are willing to offer. If you have two or more texts you will get serious problems, and you are lucky that the worst happening to you is expulsion from the country.Also, if you yourself or your father ever was a Muslim, carrying a bible is proof of apostasy and you would be executed. (According to Saudi law, anyone born of a once Muslim father, even if he converted to something else, is a Muslim. Obama would have some problems bringing a personal bible to Saudi Arabia.He once registered in a school as a Muslim, and his step father was. That means in Saudi law he is a Muslim for life.)

Also if you bring a bible, they may let you if they feel like it in but you will be honoured with your own personal religious policeman, following you everywhere you go.

In 2011 a Christian Indonesian woman was executed for "witchcraft" in Saudi Arabia. This is a common way of working things in Saudi Arabia: if you become an irritation to someone suddenly there could be a court case against you for "insurrection" or "witchcraft" or "sodomy". The accusation will usually have nothing to do with the real reason why you have legal problems. So your bible or your crucifix may very well land you with an appointment on chop-chop square, all it takes a local Arab taking a dislike to you.

Tell your friend to read just a few of the stories on Amnesty International.

Also, the Vatican is not a "holy city" to Catholics. It is the residence of the bishop of Rome, who, by agreement of council, is the most senior of the bishops and may speak on behalf of all of them. While it is true that there is a lot of history connected to the place, it is not "holy ground". However, St Peter's basilica in Rome is the only place on earth where the ancient "sanctuary" rights are still observed, as the Vatican has never repealed them. For example, a man seeking protection from the police in Italy, could in theory enter St Peter's church and the Italian police may not follow him there. Very few crooks try this trick these days, partly because they are likely to get extradited in the end anyway. Living out your life inside a cathedral does not appeal to many. In prison at least you have a bed and regular meals....

Why don't you ask you friend to come HERE and tell US about the real Islam? ..

I as a Muslim believe so-called Christians should be permitted to preach anywhere they like including Arabia.

Let us see how these people can count 1, 2 and 3.

One possible explanation for non-Muslims not being permitted to preach in Arabia is insecurity of the princely Mullahs. They cannot be bothered to refute non-Muslims.

The holy prophet of Islam not only received Christian delegations in what we know today as the Prophet's Mosque but also permitted them to pray inside the courtyard of the mosque when their time of prayer arrived.

The Mullahs know these traditions but they willingly ignore them or do not want to ponder over them.

16:10 - And upon Allah rests the showing of the right way, and there are ways which deviate from the right course. And if He had enforced His Will, He would have guided you all.

The problem with Islam is, as this forum demonstrates, free speech and open investigation kills it stone dead, and very quickly.

Remember that ONE error in the Qur'an is enough. Islam cannot stand up to any kind of challenge, even a gentle investigation. Even a teddy bear called Mohammed is a step too far.... a Danish drawing in a newspaper is a threat....

It's not that they cannot be bothered, it's that they can only protect Islam by PREVENTING a critical look at it, by violence if necessary.

They don't allow Christian preaching because it would mean a collapse of their society. The minute Arabs loose the fear instilled in them by Islam, they will run as fast as they can to leave Islam, and never look back.

YahooChatIslam1 wrote:I as a Muslim believe so-called Christians should be permitted to preach anywhere they like including Arabia.

Let us see how these people can count 1, 2 and 3.

One possible explanation for non-Muslims not being permitted to preach in Arabia is insecurity of the princely Mullahs. They cannot be bothered to refute non-Muslims.

The holy prophet of Islam not only received Christian delegations in what we know today as the Prophet's Mosque but also permitted them to pray inside the courtyard of the mosque when their time of prayer arrived.

The Mullahs know these traditions but they willingly ignore them or do not want to ponder over them.

They don't allow Christian preaching because it would mean a collapse of their society. The minute Arabs loose the fear instilled in them by Islam, they will run as fast as they can to leave Islam, and never look back.

You mean the collapse of Muslim society. Once they leave Islam, their lives will start to improve. Maybe even become modernized.

They don't allow Christian preaching because it would mean a collapse of their society. The minute Arabs loose the fear instilled in them by Islam, they will run as fast as they can to leave Islam, and never look back.

You mean the collapse of Muslim society. Once they leave Islam, their lives will start to improve. Maybe even become modernized.

Modernize? Western World is steeped in depression. USA is capital of DRUG USE because they are depressed people.

Anti-Islamic economic model has destroyed the spirit of the Western society. You call that MODERN?

Clowns!

16:10 - And upon Allah rests the showing of the right way, and there are ways which deviate from the right course. And if He had enforced His Will, He would have guided you all.

They don't allow Christian preaching because it would mean a collapse of their society. The minute Arabs loose the fear instilled in them by Islam, they will run as fast as they can to leave Islam, and never look back.

You mean the collapse of Muslim society. Once they leave Islam, their lives will start to improve. Maybe even become modernized.

Modernize? Western World is steeped in depression. USA is capital of DRUG USE because they are depressed people.

Anti-Islamic economic model has destroyed the spirit of the Western society. You call that MODERN?

Rather than questioning my statement, your question 'Is that your best answer?' invites people to dance around.

I have removed this particular insult, and I will tell you that all views are welcome, but personal insults are not. If you continue to ignore civilized norms in your contributions, your account will be closed. You have been warned.

M.

So-called Christians should have the freedom to preach their rubbish wherever they want. In fact it will keep the MULLAHS in Arabia on their toes. I am all for it.

16:10 - And upon Allah rests the showing of the right way, and there are ways which deviate from the right course. And if He had enforced His Will, He would have guided you all.

Everyday Christianity is based on the Golden Rule where one treats all others as one would hope that others would treat you. Islam also agrees with this for those within Islam but not those outside Islam.

Please tell me which of the two approaches is the better for mankind - the Christian or Islamic approach.

Marie wrote:so I'm having an Facebook debate with a guy living in the States who is from Saudi Arabia and the ban on Christians preaching in the country been brought up. The guy says the ban is the same as the Vatican prohibiting Muslims from preaching. Well I don't know anything about Muslims being prohibited from preaching in the Vatican, but do state if that is true, the ban is only meant for the city not the entire country of Italy. The guy goes on the same the ban in Saudi Arabia is the same as the ban in the Vatican and I say no because the ban on Muslims preaching only goes for the Vatican while the ban on Christians preaching in Saudi Arabia is throughout the entire country. The guy goes on to say Christians are allowed to preach in countries around Saudi Arabia just like the Vatican. I said this does not make Saudi Arabia look any better.

This guy is a fraud.He is confusing the issue.

One can compare Vatican with Kaba or some mosque in Mecca and Medina.

No one is insisting on preaching christianity to muslims when they gather for Hajj at mecca or Medina. Same way one cant shout and preach Islam within a complex of Vatican where Pope lives and has St.Peter Basilica.The whole area perhaps occupy tiny part of Rome may be 2-3 sq.miles .

There are mosques outside Vatican in city of Rome. By same token there should be Churches outside Mecaa ,medina and all over Saudi Arabia.

I like Zakr Nayak's defence of not allowing christian preachings within S.A. Zakir the clawn believes that as Saudi Arabia has perfect religion there is no need to allow any third rate religion there. One doesn't carry coal to New Castle.

I visited Vatican last year. Nowadays the place is very crowded and busy. Always some celebration etc going on. It has now very tight security. Any activity by any other religion will be monitored and trouble makers will be frisked away by security guards. Other pilgrims wont tolerate any muslim passing any literature in the square.

The main concern I have about muslim presence there is about their tendency to desecrate, vandalize priceless ancient statues and paintings. Some mullah may get carried away and break statues or destroy paintings .