That interview has nothing to do with the issue in discussion, but the lack of a loser’s bracket together with “best of 1” matches.

Tournaments, prizes, tests and such attempt to organize things in order of quality. Such can only be analyzed based on a given criterion. This last word is the key here. It makes absolutely no sense to try to identify the best at a given task if the task itself is not defined. The criterion a tournament will have is something well specified: it is defined by its rules. A tournament with no character switching tries to determine the best player under those conditions and a tournament which allows counter-picking aims to determine the best playing these different conditions. It is as simple as that.

Both have issues. The first set of rules tends to eliminate characters with overall bad match-ups, particularly against the top tier characters. The second set of rules, together with blind pick, might allow something such as both pick O.Sagat, then the loser proceeds to pick Sim, then the other player picks Claw, then the other picks boxer. So, it tends to force players by picking a bunch of top tier characters. I see little sense in watching a tournament if one does not expect to see good players overcoming their bad match-ups.

I would only have a problem with counterpicking if a matchup were truly considered 10-0. Since no such matchup exists in SFII, I really don’t see why counterpicking shouldn’t be allowed.

no 10-0 matchups, but there are a number of matchups that allow a lesser player to scrape out a win vs a better player. I’m not gonna debate the validity of western tourneys overall but I personally can’t help but groan when someone runs to Rog or O.Sagat after a loss, and then othe other guy runs to a counter vs those chars, it’s allowed so do what you need to do but it’s far from exciting.

Aqua, I also think part of the reason Daigo likes evo is the money. You don’t get paid to win tournaments in Japan (AFAIK). When Daigo goes to EVO, i’m sure he doesn’t mind being given money for winning. And let’s not even talk about the countless money matches of Daigo just taking people’s money.

So you believe that a counter pick shows the better player? No, if you are the better player than you choose a character that goes even with or is worse against the opponents character and beat them. That makes you a better player.

If the greatest hawk player gets counterpicked by a honda, does that automatically make the honda player better than the hawk player? Or is it just that the matchup is so stupid.

Valid point, but you don’t think the Hawk player would play a Honda in a tournament that doesn’t allow counterpicking by chance? Wouldn’t a player, when in a tournament regardless of counterpicking rules, meet a player that plays a character who has an advantage over that player?

Valid point, but you don’t think the Hawk player would play a Honda in a tournament that doesn’t allow counterpicking by chance? Wouldn’t a player, when in a tournament regardless of counterpicking rules, meet a player that plays a character who has an advantage over that player?

That’s true, but your missing the point, american rules allow you to run to a character that beats your opponent after you lose. In your own example, counterpicks happen on chance not on purpose.

That’s true, but your missing the point, american rules allow you to run to a character that beats your opponent after you lose. In your own example, counterpicks happen on chance not on purpose.

I was trying to say that it won’t really matter if counterpicks happen by chance or on purpose. Players will undoubtedly find themselves in a disadvantageous matchup during a tournament so why delay the inevitable? A shoto will probably run into Sim, a non-shoto will probably run into Honda, etc.

I was trying to say that it won’t really matter if counterpicks happen by chance or on purpose. Players will undoubtedly find themselves in a disadvantageous matchup during a tournament so why delay the inevitable? A shoto will probably run into Sim, a non-shoto will probably run into Honda, etc.

Ethics I suppose, My character x is better than your character y, but you know how to use a stupid matchup and therefore you purposefully counter me with character z. Assuming x and y are close to even matchups.

Tourney’s that allow counterpicks show those people who are best at choosing the character that wins, not necessarily the character that they are best with.

I’d rather see the best honda stick it out against the best ryu, instead of a honda player that runs to rog, ryu, or claw to beat that ryu. In a tourney I would probably only use one character anyway.

So you believe that a counter pick shows the better player? No, if you are the better player than you choose a character that goes even with or is worse against the opponents character and beat them. That makes you a better player.

If the greatest hawk player gets counterpicked by a honda, does that automatically make the honda player better than the hawk player? Or is it just that the matchup is so stupid.

Who cares about better, I want to win my matches! We’re not robots who are programmed to constantly make the best decision at all times like that computer that can never lose in chess. We’re people, shit happens, we get tired, people win their bad match-up lose their good match-up for variety reasons, neither that I would argue are “stupid.” (well, except for intentional sandbagging, lol, but i think this is a non-issue in high level tourney play). The world’s best hawk player should only be losing to a handful of almost as good honda players, he should be able to completely mindfuck the rest.

Counter-picking isn’t nearly a gimme a some people are making it out to be…

Fulaani:

no 10-0 matchups, but there are a number of matchups that allow a lesser player to scrape out a win vs a better player. I’m not gonna debate the validity of western tourneys overall but I personally can’t help but groan when someone runs to Rog or O.Sagat after a loss, and then othe other guy runs to a counter vs those chars, it’s allowed so do what you need to do but it’s far from exciting.

how often does this happen in high level play? people are typically at a disadvantage when they “counter-pick” because they’re usually playing with a character they are not nearly as familar/comfortable/competitive with. I see way more people FAIL when they try and counter-pick in this game than ever ride their 6-4, 7-3 match-up counter-pick to the promise land.

And I say usually at a disadvantage. There are really skilled people out there who are just really skilled with more than one character. How is it “less exciting” to watch someone’s really good ryu get scraped by a really good vega and then pick his really good dictator and tear that vega player a new asshole. Its pretty hard to scrub out wins once you get to top 8, lesser player my nutsack.

And i thought we were talking about hdr? there’s no o.sagat in this game, the tiers are way more compressed now that in ST. I don’t see one 8-2, 9-1, 10-0 matches in thelo’s consensus match-up chart. And if we’re in here complaining about 7-3 match-ups then we need to gtfo of the hdr forum and maybe play SF1 or something.

I’d rather see the best honda stick it out against the best ryu, instead of a honda player that runs to rog, ryu, or claw to beat that ryu.

Yes, that’s why I think from a spectators point of view a tourney that does not allow counter picking is more entertaining to watch.

However, I feel that from a competitor’s point of view, a tourney that does allow counter picking is fairer, because I think players who master multiple characters are better than players who master just one character, and if that gives them an advantage that’s okay.

It’s like in baseball you can bring in a lefty reliever to get a lefty out. And if your team doesn’t have a lefty in the bullpen, well then that’s your own fault.

Yes, that’s why I think from a spectators point of view a tourney that does not allow counter picking is more entertaining to watch.

However, I feel that from a competitor’s point of view, a tourney that does allow counter picking is fairer, because I think players who master multiple characters are better than players who master just one character, and if that gives them an advantage that’s okay.

It’s like in baseball you can bring in a lefty reliever to get a lefty out. And if your team doesn’t have a lefty in the bullpen, well then that’s your own fault.

And the counter statement, is that maybe the right handers need to be trickier. I don’t like counterpickers, but in a tourney where its allowed I can see why people do it. What pisses me off is the people that counterpick in casuals that shit is stupid.

how often does this happen in high level play? people are typically at a disadvantage when they “counter-pick” because they’re usually playing with a character they are not nearly as familar/comfortable/competitive with. I see way more people FAIL when they try and counter-pick in this game than ever ride their 6-4, 7-3 match-up counter-pick to the promise land. And I say usually at a disadvantage. There are really skilled people out there who are just really skilled with more than one character. How is it “less exciting” to watch someone’s really good ryu get scraped by a really good vega and then pick his really good dictator and tear that vega player a new asshole. Its pretty hard to scrub out wins once you get to top 8, lesser player my nutsack.

Like you said, scrubs die when they try to counterpick, experienced players however are proficient with multiple characters.

And to me that is less exciting because there is nothing interesting in some dude who relies on the character select screen for a win. About “lesser player my nutsack” difficult matchups imply that one character has to work harder than the other, that creates a buffer where someone who is less good can make up for his disadvantage in skill with a highly advantageous character choice.
I’m not saying I don’t respect people who counterpick, if it’s allowed then do what you gotta do to make that money. It just makes it less interesting to me personally.

And i thought we were talking about hdr? there’s no o.sagat in this game, the tiers are way more compressed now that in ST. I don’t see one 8-2, 9-1, 10-0 matches in thelo’s consensus match-up chart. And if we’re in here complaining about 7-3 match-ups then we need to gtfo of the hdr forum and maybe play SF1 or something.

Tiers are more compressed but I find that for some characters that list is way too optimistic still.

On the general topic, I don’t think there is a clear right or wrong. People have different ideas of what’s right and wrong in competition. Neither format is completely without error in determining the best player because there are obviously more factors at play than mere skill if people are using different tools to achieve the same goal. Hope that didn’t sound too scrubby, I love tournaments but I believe they can only give a good approximation of who the best player was that day, not an absolute clear answer. Both formats have this problem I believe so it doesn’t matter THAT much to me.

I do think there’s alot of arguing, but mostly, I would say I’m surprised at this conversation and how well it has gone. (Of course I’m arguing about what arguing is now right?) But I think people have expressed opinions and for the most part it hasn’t turned into a flame war yet. I think this is actually one of those places where both sides have a legitament argument and there’s merits on both sides. I said it in my first post and I’ll say it again, I think this is really an interesting topic.