News:

Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

Christians in Pakistan fear a 14-year-old girl kidnapped by several men will be forced to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim.

Shamim Kausor, of the district of Toba Tek Singh in Punjab province, was abducted from her home Dec. 31 by men who pulled up in a jeep and took her away by gunpoint, according to the Washington, D.C.-based persecution monitor International Christian Concern.

ICC said young Christian girls in Pakistan often are abducted and raped and forced to marry Muslim men but generally have no rights or recourse for the crimes committed against them.

This was the second abduction of Kausor, and several neighbors recognized a man who kidnapped her several months ago.

At that time, Kausor's father, Afzal Masih, employed the help of police to rescue his daughter. He tried to initiate legal proceedings against the man but was strongly dissuaded by Muslim village leaders.

The kidnapper taunted and threatened the girl after the first abduction, ICC reported.

At one point he said, "A beautiful girl like you should not remain Christian. I will make you Muslim and you will bear a Muslim child."

The police are not interested in helping Masih this time, however, ICC said.

In November, 15-year-old Pakistani Christian boy was kidnapped and taken to a strict Islamic religious school where he was beaten to submission and forced to declare he is a Muslim, according to an international aid group.

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Let me explain one point that might be not very clear from Western minds. Islam supports and encourages these kidnapping, because there is no greater reward for anyone than to convert people to Islam. It does not matter how, torture and kidnapping and rapping are all fair game. Also, muslims (not fanatics, all muslims) regard non-muslim women as sex objects. If you read the islamic history, you will find horrific acts of raping women in countries which Islam conquered. This is permitted by Islam as a reward for Jihad. Muhamed himself, raped a 17-year old jewish woman between the corps of her brother, husband, mother after defeating her tribe.

I wonder why people choose to ignore history, doctrine, destruction of Islam for empty slogan like those the Liberals uphold. Or is it just pure ignorance?

Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but I was wondering if the practices you mentioned are spoken of in the Koran. If so, I think it would be handy for each of us to have those refrences handy when encountering the "I'm okay you're okay" portrait muslims are trying to portray.

Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."-Yazid Ibrahim

I typed Hadith into Google, and came back with this page which seems like a good resource for those of us who want to understand Islam's claims and how they differ from Orthodox(or orthodox) Christianity.

Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."-Yazid Ibrahim

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but I was wondering if the practices you mentioned are spoken of in the Koran. If so, I think it would be handy for each of us to have those refrences handy when encountering the "I'm okay you're okay" portrait muslims are trying to portray.

The main references in Quran are , ordered according to importance, the Quran, the Haddith ( the quotes of the prophet), and the Sirah and sunnah (biography of Muhamed). The practices above are in the Quran, but they are verified by many Haddith and many incidents in Muhamed's life. Actually, they are countless. If you understood arabic, I would refer you directly to reading the Quran in arabic and the commentaries of the authentic books (equal to the church fathers) to show you how Islam was understood but the people who lived with MUhamed and practiced it the way it should be, away from the apologetics and the new translations of Quran (I read most of them, and all I read are disgracfully falsified to fit with the Western taste). It would have been also very useful to read current books by exmuslims or arabic speaking authors who point out the scandals in Islam and its violent nature and oppose the islamic state, which is the real dream of muslims.Arabic history books written in the beginning of Islam is very useful because at that time, there were no human rights and you will see Islam in its purest form.

But unfortuantly, people in the West don't know Arabic and therefore Muslims can present whatever image about Islam they want, including falsifying a translation of their holy book to convince people that they are peaceful people. I see and I fear for many in the West to fall in this trap.

I'm having at the moment a conversation about this very thing with a friend of mine in Egypt (he's Christian).

nyushka42: Harby, got a question for you that's completely out of left field... (baseball analogy, means has nothing to do with what we were discussing)...harby: Sure! Go ahead!nyushka42: well, you live in Egypt, were there are 2 distinct (Christian Muslim) split in religion, & I'm guessing people make a big fuss is someone inter-marries...harby: I'm listeningnyushka42: it's not that big a deal in the states, for most Americans, anyway, but I come from a sub-culture that marrying someone non-Orthodox, and ESPECIALLY not even Christian is extremely frowned upon. nyushka42: who do people in Egypt react to inter-religious couples, or does one of the couple always have to convert to the the other religion?harby: Well, that's an interesting question!harby: First of all, Egyptians are 90% Muslim and 10% Christiannyushka42: and i get the impression the the Christians pretty much stay to themselves?harby: About this matter of getting married to someone from a different religion, it's very serious thing here harby: In most cases, you'll find Muslim men getting married to Christians harby: Muslim girls are not allowed to get married to Christians nyushka42: in the states most people are either Catholic or Protastant, & for them it doesn't really bother them if they inter-marryharby: That's from the Muslim point of view nyushka42: really...nyushka42: that's kinda twisted...harby: Yes, to me, it doesn't matter at all if an Orthodox gets married to a Catholic harby: As for the Christian point of view, WE NEVER WELCOME SUCH MARRIAGES! IT'S A FCT! harby: FACTharby: And in most cases as well, Christian girls convert to Islam harby: THEY TRY TO FORCE THEM TO DO SOnyushka42: yeah, that's what i've heard... that's horriblenyushka42: sends chills down my spineharby: They either seduce them or force them harby: But it's never becasue they are convinced to convert to Islam harby: And in most cases, Muslim men get married to Christians, not becasue of love, but out of spite; in an attempt to embarrass Christians nyushka42: that's very very twistedharby: And usually after they get what they desire, be it sex, money, embarrasment for Christians, they either divorce them or marry one more time (polygamy) nyushka42: what happens to the girls after their divorced?harby: They are ruined!! Rejected by family and now by their seducers! nyushka42: Geezzzznyushka42: that's horribleharby: THAT's THE WAY IT IS, Ania! But you know what, I think they deserve that fate! nyushka42: it's still horrible... to make a stupid mistake while your young & inexperienced is no reason to suffer the rest of your lifeharby: Do you know that in Islam a man can have four wives at any given time? nyushka42: yes, i did know thatharby: Well, that's all about these kinds of marriages harby: I WOULD NEVER ADVISE ANYONE I CARE FOR TO UNDERGO SUCH AN EXPERIENCE!nyushka42: no, it doesn't look very promisingnyushka42: i guess i'm very lucky that we live in the States thenharby: Ania, can I ask you a personal question?nyushka42: sure...nyushka42: and before u ask, no i'm not dating a muslim harby: That's smart!!! harby: And assuring!nyushka42: is that what u were going to ask?harby: Yeah!

Just thought someone might find it interesting, coming from where this stuff is happening right nowGÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âª

Ania

Logged

Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

What Ania wrote is true for almost all Muslim countries.My roommate is a Christian; she is Jordanian but was born and brought up in Saudi Arabia. I asked her the same question Ania asked her friend. She said that it was true that Muslims married Christian girls and in most cases, forced them to convert to Islam. In Muslim countries, atleast in the Middle East, if a Muslim decides to marry a Non-Muslim, the other person is required to convert to Islam. Muslim women can marry Non-muslim men provided they convert to Islam. There were also several instances when she was indirectly asked to convert to Islam when she was in Saudi.She also had a friend whos mother was Christian, and had to convert to Islam when she married a muslim. However,she did it just for the paperwork and still celebrated Christmas and led a Christian life. Muslims believe that the more people they convert to Islam, the better. And its not that they only force christian women to convert, they have done it all over the world, any place where there are muslims.

I don't know if this is the right forum but I found the following article on an online Indian Newspaper site and thought some of you might be interested:

Why it's Islam vs rest of the world?

Tavleen Singh

New Delhi, February 1: In Davos this year there was much talk of Islam and its differences with the West. The emphasis was on trying to understand why rather than on dismissing the whole issue as that clash of civilisations Samuel Huntington wrote so prophetically about nearly ten years before 9/11.

A whole gamut of Muslim intellectuals were invited to address sessions with subjects as diverse as religion and globalisation, modernity and Islam and the shared roots of Western and Islamic culture.

Arab princes spoke, as did professors and scholars from the Islamic world and women in hijab who argued that the West try and understand that democracy and gender issues had different meanings in different cultures.

The Grand Mufti of Bosnia was there alongside the former American Archbishop of Canterbury and representing the Indian subcontinent was, ironically, General Pervez Musharraf.

As I watched him expound on his theory that Islam was a peaceful religion that sought only friendship and peace with the world, I found myself wondering why then it had been necessary to break India up for reasons of Islam. But, that is the sort of politically incorrect question nobody asks these days just as we do not ask why the Kashmir Valley’s struggle for autonomy has ended up becoming part of the international jehad against Americans, Jews and Hindus.

Political correctness was very much the mood of the World Economic Forum’s annual meeting so many of those who spoke for Islam got away with blaming the West for their woes.

You must understand, they said, that terrorism was not Islamic or Christian but just terrorism. And, you must understand that at the root of what was going on lay unresolved political problems like Palestine and Kashmir. Our friendly, neighbourhood military dictator went so far as to say that because of these unresolved political issues young Muslims had developed a sense of persecution and had begun to believe that the world was against Islam.

It was the duty of the West to not just help resolve these political issues fairly but also help solve some of the socio-economic problems of the Islamic world. Then, the world would be at peace once more and we could live without the threat of suicide bombers.

Since this column has never had pretensions of political correctness let me spit it out. It would, in my view, be a terrible mistake to try and understand the causes of Islamic terrorism. And, please let us call it Islamic since nearly every terrorist act in recent years has been committed by Muslims in the name of their so-called jehad.

These terrible acts of violence cannot be excused on political grounds. There have always been political disputes and there always will be but the solution is not terrorism. As for ‘‘socio-economic’’ causes we need to remember that none of the hijackers of 9/11 were poor, illiterate or underprivileged.

Many of them have abandoned their repressive home countries for comfortable, middle-class lives in Europe and the United States but were so consumed by hatred of the West that they were prepared to die for it.

Moderate Muslims need to ask why just as they need to ask why, despite all their oil, even rich Muslim countries are unable to create just and enlightened societies instead of ones that produce disaffected, desperate youths who are prepared to give their lives to kill innocent people.

If the West is such a terrible place and America Satan incarnate then why do so many Muslims choose to migrate to cities like New York and London? Why are they not happy to live bigoted, blinkered lives in Riyadh and Jeddah?

There would be no problem with Islam, no ‘‘clash’’ of any kind, if it would restrict its jehad to its own boundaries. It is precisely because it has chosen to internationalise its ideological and religious battle that there is trouble. Just as young Muslims think their way of life is worth fighting and dying for, so young people who are not Muslim feel their way of life is worth fighting for.

And, whether Muslims are prepared to admit it or not modernity does mean questioning ancient religious beliefs and demanding answers. A religion that is based on the belief that the last word or ideology, faith, social mores and law was written fourteen hundred years ago will always find itself in conflict with change. Modernity is in its essence the ability to accept change.

This is the jehad that needs to be fought but it needs to be fought within Islam so that moderate, rational voices can rise above the violence and hatred of the bigots who seem to be the only ones able to speak for Islam.

In Davos we were supposed to have heard the voices of moderate Islam but what we ended up hearing, at session after session, was an endless litany of complaints.

It was the fault of the West that Islam was being labelled a terrorist religion, the fault of the West that most Muslim rulers were despots, the fault of the West that political issues had been allowed to fester, the fault of the West that Muslim countries had not progressed economically and the fault of the West that Osama bin Laden had got created. In vain I searched to hear one voice that would admit that there must be something deeply wrong in Islamic societies that they had bred the sort of hatred that created so much senseless violence.

Just an explanation, for instance, for why the Buddhas of Bamiyan were smashed to bits without one Islamic country intervening. I did not hear it.

It was the fault of the West that Islam was being labelled a terrorist religion, the fault of the West that most Muslim rulers were despots, the fault of the West that political issues had been allowed to fester, the fault of the West that Muslim countries had not progressed economically and the fault of the West that Osama bin Laden had got created. In vain I searched to hear one voice that would admit that there must be something deeply wrong in Islamic societies that they had bred the sort of hatred that created so much senseless violence.

It is sad that many, in our own western society, support and perpetuate this shucking of responsibility onto “the west.” It does not matter how bad your circumstances are - you are in YOURSELF responsible for your own actions. You may see violent behavior on TV, but that’s not justification for you being violent. YOU have the choice.

Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media

It is sad that many, in our own western society, support and perpetuate this shucking of responsibility onto “the west.” It does not matter how bad your circumstances are - you are in YOURSELF responsible for your own actions. You may see violent behavior on TV, but that’s not justification for you being violent. YOU have the choice.

This is one of the most absurd things Max has ever written, and that's saying a lot. I won't even bother to refute it because 1) it's so patently absurd and 2) he won't listen.