Your argument seems to be if the word titan is in his description he is a titan. If you are a book keeper are you a book? No you are a person who keeps books(records). Ra-Den is a keeper of titan items.

If you are talking about his voice quotes, I didn't get that impression at all. He seems more like a guy that was locked away for so long he has gone insane, and wants to make other people suffer for the pain he went through. He even mocks the players for thinking that they "saved" him, because he does not care about being saved, only about getting revenge. Furthermore, the audio implies that Lei Shen was more powerful the Ra-Den, thus how Lei Shen defeated him and took his power in the first place.

This runestone is more recent than the others. Something about "The sleeping keeper." I think it's referring to Ra-Den. But why was he asleep? You've found another piece of the puzzle! This was carved by the mogu. They were frustrated - a thousand years with no orders from their master, and their bodies had turned to flesh. The mogu began to argue among themselves.

Hmmm. This runestone speaks of mogu savagery. They fell apart into warrior clans. But one King was more ambitious than the others - Lei Shen. The Thunder King. When their Titan Keeper fell silent, Lei Shen decided to speak for him.

Ah! The final piece of the puzzle. The Thunder King took on the powers of Ra-Den, the very essence of a Titan. He united the mogu into an empire and tried to continue the Titans' work. Of course he saw himself as a God!

It's pretty clear from this that Lei Shen wasn't more powerful than Ra-Den. If he already had power superior to what could be considered a god than why couldn't he create his empire without said power?

It seems more that Ra-Den was incapacitated when Lei Shen came to him that he provided no real resistance to another claiming his power.

It's pretty clear from this that Lei Shen wasn't more powerful than Ra-Den. If he already had power superior to what could be considered a god than why couldn't he create his empire without said power?

It seems more that Ra-Den was incapacitated when Lei Shen came to him that he provided no real resistance to another claiming his power.

Again, either he was a titan construct (most likely), or we have to believe that a titan fell asleep and let a mogu take his powers... without... waking up... Ok...

If he was a Titan, we'd beat Sargeras with a stick. Titans fucking made the world. I don't think it would've been a problem for one to unmake a raid. Ra-Den is just the same as Thorim, Mimiron, Hodir, Freya, Loken, and the four keepers in that Uldum pyramid.

Remember Kil'jaeden fight and what it took to just banish him. And he's not even an actual Titan, he's just a subordinate of one.

Last edited by Haven; 2013-01-17 at 10:47 PM.

If you're not being manipulated, then you're handled by professionals.

Your argument seems to be if the word titan is in his description he is a titan. If you are a book keeper are you a book? No you are a person who keeps books(records). Ra-Den is a keeper of titan items.

Pretty much. 'Titan keeper' doesn't mean he's a titan.

And let's think logically for a moment; how could he be a titan? An unaccounted-for titan? How could a titan even be imprisoned like that? It took the might of the rest of the titans themselves to simply banish Sargeras to the Twisting Nether, which wasn't even really a prison, since Sargeras can still exercise plenty of control from there.

The 'titan power level' has been clearly explained, at least insomuch as the specific titans who created/affected Azeroth's history. You can fairly easily surmise their power by comparing them to their opponents, most notably several old gods. In all the battles they had with the old gods, they were never defeated with the POSSIBLE exception of ONE titan, and no one knows for sure if he really died or not. So logic would dictate that titans > old gods, and since the old gods power is fairly well defined, we can interpret at least that titans are INCREDIBLY strong. Not something a mogu, no matter how powerful, could overcome alone.

As for sleeping. I find it a little far-fetched (it was difficult not to use harsher language here) that someone people think is a TITAN, would be 'asleep' on guard duty... right... I can see the lore writer's meeting now.

"Ok guys, how did the Thunder King take this Titan's powers? We have to come up with something good or it won't make any sense..."
"I GOT IT, he was asleep!"
"BRILLIANT".

And as for titans being on different levels than the pantheon. Yes, you're absolutely right, by no means are all Titans as strong as the pantheon... however, as many (including most of the crowd who think's he IS a titan) have suggested, Pandaria is one of the most important places on Azeroth (even to the Titans), so why would they send a weaker being to guard it? Even if he's not pantheon level, he's up there for sure.

Well as I said, evidence does suggest that he was "asleep" on his guard duty or at least no longer actively doing anything he was supposed to do which is what forced the Mogu to take matters into their own hands. Lei Shen's death quote is even just to state that he was just finishing the Titan's work in his mind.

So Ra-Den was pretty much inactive when Lei Shen came to take his power.

And yes, a form of logic could result in the belief that the Titans are inherently more powerful than the Old Gods but it's not necessarily pure power that wins wars. We know for a fact that the Titans were far more unified a force than the Old Gods and their servants who constantly warred with and betrayed another. If the Old Gods and their servants had been just as unified and focused a force they could very well have proven superior to the Titans. And that too is a logical possibility.

Really, all we know is that the Titans won. Not exactly how or why and without those details the question of who is in fact stronger on an individual basis is as of yet somewhat unclear.

Well as I said, evidence does suggest that he was "asleep" on his guard duty or at least no longer actively doing anything he was supposed to do which is what forced the Mogu to take matters into their own hands. Lei Shen's death quote is even just to state that he was just finishing the Titan's work in his mind.

So Ra-Den was pretty much inactive when Lei Shen came to take his power.

And yes, a form of logic could result in the belief that the Titans are inherently more powerful than the Old Gods but it's not necessarily pure power that wins wars. We know for a fact that the Titans were far more unified a force than the Old Gods and their servants who constantly warred with and betrayed another. If the Old Gods and their servants had been just as unified and focused a force they could very well have proven superior to the Titans. And that too is a logical possibility.

Really, all we know is that the Titans won. Not exactly how or why and without those details the question of who is in fact stronger on an individual basis is as of yet somewhat unclear.

The titans didn't trick the old gods, they fought them. But regardless, I do agree with your point that the individual power of a titan is up for debate. However, what is not up for debate is if that individual power is less than a mogu chieftain. One of the beings that literally terraformed Azeroth (made mountains, created the atmosphere), and rules over a specific set of elements and powers, was 'asleep' on duty.

What the text logically implicates is that for whatever reason (probably another old god), the watcher in charge of his post stopped guarding it. After thousands of years of not hearing anything from him, and things getting worse (their stone turning to flesh), the mogu decided they were going to take charge. In the quote:

"This runestone is more recent than the others. Something about "The sleeping keeper." I think it's referring to Ra-Den. But why was he asleep? You've found another piece of the puzzle! This was carved by the mogu. They were frustrated - a thousand years with no orders from their master, and their bodies had turned to flesh. The mogu began to argue among themselves."

It is obvious that the MOGU named Ra'den 'the sleeping keeper' since it's written on their rune-stone. It would seem likely that there are two possible scenarios here:

1) They meant sleeping as in 'not doing his job' (as in 'sleeping on the job'). If someone who regularly gave you orders and interacted with you went silent and unheard of for thousands of years, calling them 'the sleeping keeper' wouldn't be unreasonable in the least. In this case, lei-shen would have fought him head on, and again, mogu < Titan, so... he can't be a titan.

2) He was actually sleeping (from the influence of an old god or similar being), being that he is awake NOW, it is likely he was 'awoken' by the Thunder King when he 'stole his power', in a narrative like the one in WoW, absorbing another's essence isn't a 'snap-your-fingers' type of thing. He probably would have woken up and fought back, and as in option #1, if he was a titan, he would have won that fight. Even if there is a grey area when discussing a titan's individual power, they have long been heralded as AT LEAST demi-gods, some sources call them 'the source of all life in the cosmos'.

Any other explanation (barring something we haven't seen on this thread yet) is based on a desire for him to be a titan. You have to really stretch to honestly believe he was just asleep and then didn't wake up while lei shen was taking his power.

Again, the lore might be a bit weak in some areas, but you'd have to be off your nut to think Blizzard would introduce their FIRST TITAN in all of WoW's history as a guy who fell asleep on guard duty and had one of his creations steal his power and imprison him.

Not a chance.

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 11:06 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Herecius

Pretty much. 'Titan keeper' doesn't mean he's a titan.

And let's think logically for a moment; how could he be a titan? An unaccounted-for titan? How could a titan even be imprisoned like that? It took the might of the rest of the titans themselves to simply banish Sargeras to the Twisting Nether, which wasn't even really a prison, since Sargeras can still exercise plenty of control from there.

To be fair, it is assumed that most of the titans are unaccounted-for. The only ones we know of are the pantheon and a hand-full of others, but it is stated in many places that more exist, so it would be reasonable to assume that one COULD exist here.

The titans didn't trick the old gods, they fought them. But regardless, I do agree with your point that the individual power of a titan is up for debate. However, what is not up for debate is if that individual power is less than a mogu chieftain. One of the beings that literally terraformed Azeroth (made mountains, created the atmosphere), and rules over a specific set of elements and powers, was 'asleep' on duty.

Well, all of that is mostly the power of their technology not themselves. And it's said that basically anyone can use it if they know how, the Mogu themselves were just to simpleminded to realize they had access to the power to create worlds.

And yes, they fought the Old Gods. But chances are they were fighting as a unified force while the Old Gods on the other hand were not.

And while it's like Ra-Den is not a Titan himself he was in fact left in charge of devices capable of creating life and terraforming Azeroth. And he did rule over a specific set of elements and powers. But I digress.

It's quite clear that he was in fact more powerful than a single Mogu Chieftain. Otherwise he would have already possessed power greater than the Mogu's "god". It's not said that Lei Shen bested him in combat or anything like that and Lei Shen's goal was to continue the work of the Titans.

For whatever reason, likely some sort of Old God involvement, Ra-Den clearly did not put up any real resistance. Perhaps he just didn't care anymore and was willing to just let his power be taken, maybe his slumber was so deep that Lei Shen could just steal the power from him. And really, how could Lei Shen think he was doing the Titan's work if their representative had truly resisted an effort to take his power?

Well, all of that is mostly the power of their technology not themselves. And it's said that basically anyone can use it if they know how, the Mogu themselves were just to simpleminded to realize they had access to the power to create worlds.

And yes, they fought the Old Gods. But chances are they were fighting as a unified force while the Old Gods on the other hand were not.

And while it's like Ra-Den is not a Titan himself he was in fact left in charge of devices capable of creating life and terraforming Azeroth. And he did rule over a specific set of elements and powers. But I digress.

It's quite clear that he was in fact more powerful than a single Mogu Chieftain. Otherwise he would have already possessed power greater than the Mogu's "god". It's not said that Lei Shen bested him in combat or anything like that and Lei Shen's goal was to continue the work of the Titans.

For whatever reason, likely some sort of Old God involvement, Ra-Den clearly did not put up any real resistance. Perhaps he just didn't care anymore and was willing to just let his power be taken, maybe his slumber was so deep that Lei Shen could just steal the power from him. And really, how could Lei Shen think he was doing the Titan's work if their representative had truly resisted an effort to take his power?

I agree that an old god could have had some involvement, it seems odd we never encountered one directly in Cata (n'zoth/n'zath wasn't REALLY in it), it's about time for another. HOWEVER, it took millenia of seeing the evils of the universe to drive sargeras insane, I doubt an infinitely shorter time of being subjected to an old god whispering about how stupid you are would make another titan (even if he was a bit weaker) go crazy enough to let a mogu beat him.

On a more important note, I'd like to see your source that most (or even a moderate amount) of the titans' power comes from their technology. If you look at the titans description, or even more specifically, their actual 'stats and strategies' in the WoW RPG, you can easily see they don't rely on it in the least; favoring instead magic and pure brute strength.

As a matter of fact, most of their technology is built for creation, not destruction, although some of the latter DOES exist, it's not overwhelming powerful by any means. I mean heck, even Algalon had to actually 'phone home' to try and remake the planet and he was the guy left in charge of making sure people stayed in line.

Unless specified directly by Ra-den himself, or some sort of recording machine left by the Titans that specifically state what he is considered among their ranks, I don't think we'll be able to tell if Ra-den is actually Titan or not.

We're not even sure what Titans are and only can speculate from the various pieces of information that have been left behind by them.
There are some 'eye-witness' account from some of the older races of Azeroth, but I'd say its not enough yet to see the clear picture.

We only know of the Pantheons among the Titans (7, 8 including sargeras) and there could be much more. After all, Titan is the term we gave for an entire race of these powerful metallic beings.

What is the difference between Titans, and the watchers/keepers? They're both extremely powerful, (albeit on a different scale) and from what we know, they look similar.(Minus Algalon, but then again,maybe there are different 'races' of Titans, like white/black people)

The 'size difference' (that we know of) can be just the watchers assuming a smaller size so that they can fit in the various structures on Azeroth. Assuming they have the power to do so. A lot of other powerful beings do in WoW Lore, like the Eredars.

Maybe they're the children of Titans, which could be what they mean by creations.

How are we to differentiate between 'gods' and beings with god-like powers? Is there a difference?

EDIT: Whatever Ra-den turns out to be, he is obviously a very powerful being, and Lei-Shin shouldn't have been able to take him down one on one before Lei-shin got the powers from Ra-den.

I agree that an old god could have had some involvement, it seems odd we never encountered one directly (n'zoth/n'zath wasn't REALLY in it) in Cata, it's about time for another. HOWEVER, it took millenia of seeing the evils of the universe to drive sargeras insane, I doubt an infinitely shorter time of being subjected to an old god whispering about how stupid you are would make another titan (even if he was a bit weaker) go crazy enough to let a mogu beat him.

On a more important note, I'd like to see your source that most (or even a moderate amount) of the titans' power comes from their technology. If you look at the titans description, or even more specifically, their actual 'stats and strategies' in the WoW RPG, you can easily see they don't rely on it in the least.

And I don't think a Keeper is so weak as to be so easily defeated by a single Mogu. Even if he wasn't a Titan he still had power that the Mogu considered godly.

It's more likely that he had given up on doing his job and saw Lei Shen as someone strong enough to dump his responsibilities on.

And I don't think a Keeper is so weak as to be so easily defeated by a single Mogu. Even if he wasn't a Titan he still had power that the Mogu considered godly.

It's more likely that he had given up on doing his job and saw Lei Shen as someone strong enough to dump his responsibilities on.

Not a bad theory, but then why would he be imprisoned and tortured to the point of literal insanity? I hadn't thought of a willingness to abandon his powers though, maybe there could be something there, still definitely not a titan though :P

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 11:36 PM ----------

Originally Posted by BLSTMASTER

Unless specified directly by Ra-den himself, or some sort of recording machine left by the Titans that specifically state what he is considered among their ranks, I don't think we'll be able to tell if Ra-den is actually Titan or not.

We're not even sure what Titans are and only can speculate from the various pieces of information that have been left behind by them.
There are some 'eye-witness' account from some of the older races of Azeroth, but I'd say its not enough yet to see the clear picture.

We only know of the Pantheons among the Titans (7, 8 including sargeras) and there could be much more. After all, Titan is the term we gave for an entire race of these powerful metallic beings.

What is the difference between Titans, and the watchers/keepers? They're both extremely powerful, (albeit on a different scale) and from what we know, they look similar.(Minus Algalon, but then again,maybe there are different 'races' of Titans, like white/black people)

The 'size difference' (that we know of) can be just the watchers assuming a smaller size so that they can fit in the various structures on Azeroth. Assuming they have the power to do so. A lot of other powerful beings do in WoW Lore, like the Eredars.

Maybe they're the children of Titans, which could be what they mean by creations.

How are we to differentiate between 'gods' and beings with god-like powers? Is there a difference?

EDIT: Whatever Ra-den turns out to be, he is obviously a very powerful being, and Lei-Shin shouldn't have been able to take him down one on one before Lei-shin got the powers from Ra-den.

Your points are well thought out, but a couple of them aren't completely factual.

We know watchers aren't children of the titans because that would make them titans, and to quote Metzen.
"Will we see actual titans one day."

As for the separation of creator from createe, if you make a robot who looks like you, do you call it a human? Creations are creations, not clones.

I suggest reading the books (in game) involving the titans, there is much more explained there than there is elsewhere in the game, alternatively, you can read similar information here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/7624/History-of-Warcraft). If you're coming to this discussion armed with nothing but knowledge you learned from playing WoW, you are at a massive disadvantage.

Not a bad theory, but then why would he be imprisoned and tortured to the point of literal insanity? I hadn't thought of a willingness to abandon his powers though, maybe there could be something there, still definitely not a titan though :P

Well, how hard is he really trying to escape? He doesn't really seem to complain about what was done to him and may have just been letting himself be used due to his whole idea that the world was more or less doomed anyways and he might as well let someone else try to handle the situation.

An interesting thing though would be to understand what the "yawning chasm of darkness beneath us mortals" you know the one that's apparently "vast, endless and all consuming"?

That sounds to me like the results of Y'Shaarj's destruction were even worse than we thought.

Personal theory? The Sha as we know were created by the last Pandaren Emperor's discarded emotions interacting with Y'Shaarj's energy and the Sha as we know them aren't the total sum of his former power still around and that power not in the Sha is still doing something. Or something. And more something. I really don't know, but the Sha seem beatable as of now and we've already beaten most of the major Sha if only for now.

Perhaps the Sha are in fact just the teensiest scraps of power leaking through a containment field of some sort designed to hold the forces that were unleashed upon the Old God's death? A containment field that perhaps has been increasingly weakening over the millennia and is now ready to burst at any second now like an overfull water balloon?

Well, how hard is he really trying to escape? He doesn't really seem to complain about what was done to him and may have just been letting himself be used due to his whole idea that the world was more or less doomed anyways and he might as well let someone else try to handle the situation.

An interesting thing though would be to understand what the "yawning chasm of darkness beneath us mortals" you know the one that's apparently "vast, endless and all consuming"?

That sounds to me like the results of Y'Shaarj's destruction were even worse than we thought.

Personal theory? The Sha as we know were created by the last Pandaren Emperor's discarded emotions interacting with Y'Shaarj's energy and the Sha as we know them aren't the total sum of his former power still around and that power not in the Sha is still doing something. Or something. And more something. I really don't know, but the Sha seem beatable as of now and we've already beaten most of the major Sha if only for now.

Perhaps the Sha are in fact just the teensiest scraps of power leaking through a containment field of some sort designed to hold the forces that were unleashed upon the Old God's death? A containment field that perhaps has been increasingly weakening over the millennia and is now ready to burst at any second now like an overfull water balloon?

So if he doesn't care about anything, and doesn't put up a fight, completely willing to be tortured and imprisoned, why is he so willing to fight random adventurers that wander by? It doesn't add up.

However, it has all but been said that the death of Y'Shaarj poisoned the land, leading to the Sha corruption. This could VERY well be what was meant when it was said that if the Old Gods were killed, that life on Azeroth would end. The entire world would be poisoned with the same energy that made the Sha a reality.

Anyhow guys, I'm going to head out. I don't think we're going to get anywhere in this discussion until Metzen comes out and says something along the lines of:

"HE'S NOT A TITAN, STOP THINKING EVERYTHING IS A TITAN. THAT CRAB? NOT A TITAN. THAT ROCK? NOT A TITAN. THAT MURLOC? yeah, ok, that's a titan, but still."

So if he doesn't care about anything, and doesn't put up a fight, completely willing to be tortured and imprisoned, why is he so willing to fight random adventurers that wander by? It doesn't add up.

However, it has all but been said that the death of Y'Shaarj poisoned the land, leading to the Sha corruption. This could VERY well be what was meant when it was said that if the Old Gods were killed, that life on Azeroth would end. The entire world would be poisoned with the same energy that made the Sha a reality.

Anyhow guys, I'm going to head out. I don't think we're going to get anywhere in this discussion until Metzen comes out and says something along the lines of:

"HE'S NOT A TITAN, STOP THINKING EVERYTHING IS A TITAN. THAT CRAB? NOT A TITAN. THAT ROCK? NOT A TITAN. THAT MURLOC? yeah, ok, that's a titan, but still."

He's not just fighting random adventurers, he's fighting the adventurers who slew the person who had taken his place. And I suppose he's also testing them. And failing that apparently planning on just blowing everything up because as he says, "The only answer to corruption is destruction."

Your argument seems to be if the word titan is in his description he is a titan. If you are a book keeper are you a book? No you are a person who keeps books(records). Ra-Den is a keeper of titan items.

More specifically, he is likely the keeper of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, which was confirmed as a Titan "lab" like Un'goro or Sholzar.

Likely he originally resided in the Mogu'shan Vaults/Palace before he was defeated by Lei Shen and imprisoned in the Throne of Thunder.

"Oh, who does my hair? You might have heard of my stylist. It's called the Void!"
"No matter how much you plead I will not sprout tentacles or turn into a giant eyeball. Well, I might. But not because you asked!"

I have an idea, perhaps Ra-den is a titan, perhaps he is the titan who killed Y'Shaarj, perhaps he lost a body part in that conflict. That's right, maybe Ra-den is actually Tyr. Although this is somewhat of a long shot, it was stated that Tyr lost his hand fighting a great evil, and that although he was originality stationed at Ulduar, he was not there during Yogg's defeat.

Another thing that might support my idea is this; it is assumed that Y'Shaarj's heads became the Sha, the manifestations of all negative emotions. Perhaps when Tyr lost his hand Y'Shaarj corrupted him, and drove him to insanity, causing him to lock himself deep inside MSV.