GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:If only Cam Newton were still available when the Browns spot in the draft came up.

He would already have 700 rushing yards since the O-Line can't block shit.....

Who exactly would he be throwing the ball to?? Our kickoff returner or our 45 year old tight end????

Stick him on special teams to either tackle the guy who runs back 101 yards right after we tie the game or maybe on defense for field goals so maybe we can not let them score the winning touchdown on a fucking 6th grade fake field goal play that goes for 35 yards and a TD......lol

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:If only Cam Newton were still available when the Browns spot in the draft came up.

SD:

Point was Fucko , you had to have the balls to trade up for Newton , and a pardner willing to move , which Carolina already had a track record of doing .

There will be no such situation in regards to Luck , something I mapped out nine months before it ever donned on your sorry ass.

We could have controlled that draft , and got our guy , but now we'll just be standing by holding our cocks while Indy walks in with their 0 fer 16 Detroit record and takes the other best QB in the last decade officially having us miss out on both.

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:If only Cam Newton were still available when the Browns spot in the draft came up.

He would already have 700 rushing yards since the O-Line can't block shit.....

Ya know, when things go wrong it's easy to pile on, but what you write above is a real over simplification. We can't run the the ball because that is not the identity of a Shurmur team. There are very few C for which I would trade A Mack. There are less LT that I would swap for j Thomas. Right side - sure, you can bitch, especially RT.

But please don't blame the lack of rushing success on the OL - that is on Shurmur.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

The WR [b]corpse IS the worst in the entire NFL, [tho Little showed up well yesterday]Cribbs and MoMass start for no one other than Cleveland

There are 2 rookies starting on the DL

A rookie in the secondary yesterday

^^^^^^ That .

Colt shows up on Sundays for a shoot-out with no weapons. Fill the other 16 areas of need unless a QB falls from heaven.

^^^^^^ That... is incredibly disingenous.

One of the worst O Lines in the NFL... pshaw! Do you watch other teams? Have you seen Philly's line? Chicago's? Atlanta's? And those are just the supposedly "good" teams. Total falsity.

Not sure what the LB corps has to do with Colt McCoy.

And saying the WR corps is one of the worst in the league is a chicken-and-egg thing. Certainly, they're not one the best, but do the QB's look bad b/c the WR's suck, or do the WR's look bad b/c they have Derek Anderson/Brady Quinn/Jake Delhomme/Colt McCoy throwing to them? Chicago's got no Receivers of note, yet Cutler seems to be functional (and with a horrible O Line too!)

The rookies on the D Line are 2 of the better players on the team, and also have nothing to do with Colt McCoy.

There was a rookie starting in the secondary? Are you counting Skrine, the nickelback? And, again, nothing to do with McCoy.

I've heard excuses about every single QB the Browns have had since '99, and I've always said the same thing - sure, some of the excuses are valid, but in the end they don't mean shit, either you get it done or you fail. Cry me a river for all the mediocre QB's of the world that could've might've been OK had they just been drafted by last year's Super Bowl champ.

If you want to prove that it's all someone else's fault, don't badly miss the Receivers the few times that they are open. That'd be a starting place for me to have sympathy for the dude.

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:If only Cam Newton were still available when the Browns spot in the draft came up.

SD:

Point was Fucko , you had to have the balls to trade up for Newton , and a pardner willing to move , which Carolina already had a track record of doing .

There will be no such situation in regards to Luck , something I mapped out nine months before it ever donned on your sorry ass.

We could have controlled that draft , and got our guy , but now we'll just be standing by holding our cocks while Indy walks in with their 0 fer 16 Detroit record and takes the other best QB in the last decade officially having us miss out on both.

SoulDawg

GHCS:

Hey, SD, in your fantasy, does this trade for Cam Newton happen before or after Minka Kelly pays you a visit?

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:If only Cam Newton were still available when the Browns spot in the draft came up.

SD:

Point was Fucko , you had to have the balls to trade up for Newton , and a pardner willing to move , which Carolina already had a track record of doing .

There will be no such situation in regards to Luck , something I mapped out nine months before it ever donned on your sorry ass.

We could have controlled that draft , and got our guy , but now we'll just be standing by holding our cocks while Indy walks in with their 0 fer 16 Detroit record and takes the other best QB in the last decade officially having us miss out on both.

SoulDawg

GHCS:

Hey, SD, in your fantasy, does this trade for Cam Newton happen before or after Minka Kelly pays you a visit?

""""As you can see there have been numerous trades in the top five of the NFL draft, but scant few involving the #1 overall pick. More often than not teams want to take what they perceive as the best player, but we have seen examples of moving back. I liken the 2011 draft most closely to the 1995 one, the last time Carolina picked #1 overall and the pick we ultimately traded.

Like 1995 there wasn't an absolute lock at QB, but rather a running back, Ki-Jana Carter who was regarded as the best pick the draft. Carolina found a way to move back to #5 overall, select a QB (Kerry Collins) and get an additional pick at the top of the 2nd round. What remains to be see is who (if anyone) will emerge as being worth a team moving up to #1 and take. From where I sit the best chance lies with Da'Quan Bowers; if Bowers has an amazing combine then I think you will see numerous teams in need of a dominant 4-3 DE look to leapfrog Denver and ensure his selection. If Nick Fairley represents the best example of need and BPA aligning then Bowers represents the best example of BPA and upside aligning""""""

49ers trade their No. 2 to Carolina for next year’s No. 1

Posted by Tim Kawakami on April 25th, 2009 at 5:26 pm | Categorized as 49ers, NFL

You saw on TV that the 49ers traded their No. 2 pick (No. 43 overall) to Carolina.

Here’s the deal: No. 43 plus the No. 111 overall this year to Carolina for the Panthers’ No. 1 in 2010.

* So I guess this means the 49ers are probably done for today, unless they trade back into the second round…

The Panthers took DE Everette Brown–a guy the 49ers probably thought was too small or too interchangeable with the guys they already have or could get in later rounds–with the pick.

motherscratcher wrote:SD - Are you saying that Carolina trading their pick 16 years ago is a track record?

SD:

They had a history of trading that pick including their 2010 #1 and the 95 pick which was #1 overall .

In fact the author of that article drew the same analogy where they could move back and still net a QB , which IMO the Panthers would have jumped on with a new defensive minded coach who had an incumbent #2 investment already in place.

My point all along was Carolina wanted out , they couldn't even open up a conversation with the other 31 GM's because nobody amongst the so called ex spurts had the guts to make a trade fearing they would get Jamrcus Russelled .

Nobody pre draft without a rookie wage scale in place was going to pay another Black QB even more money than than Russell and eclipse the Sam Bradford stratosphere .

Thats just a fact of life , and that was the 800 pound gorilla in the room , when Carolina made their happy face after not even receiving a phone call as to what they might want for the pick.

hiko wrote:One thing that drives me nuts is people claiming we should've traded up to get Player X when we have absolutely no idea if they tried, if the other team was willing, what the asking price was, etc.

Just because other teams were able to do it in history doesn't mean it was even remotely fucking possible.

Bitching about players that the FO passed on, I get that. But breaking out the ol' "Why didn't those lazy bastards trade up to get Ndamakong Suh???!!!" is just ridiculous.

SD:

We weren't going to get Suh off the Lions anymore than we were going to get the Rams to part with Bradford even if Homie went thru with his Ditka like offer .

My point of contention is none of the so called exspurts saw what I saw in Newton , instead relied on the Jackasses like Mayock who said Gabbert was better along with their own prejudiced fear of getting labeled for trading up only to get Jamarcus Russelled.

Carolina wanted out of that situation especially after using a #2 on Clausen just months earlier

Nobody wanted that pick Hiko , nobody had the foresight and the balls to spot that talent cut thru the bullshit and make the deal of the century .

There are no more Bill Walshes in the league and Holmgren is a full fucking Fraud ,

Ron Wolf spotted drafted and traded for every QB who ever brought him success after he profited by Walsh having both Montanna and then Young for him to toy with.

Which includes Hasselback who Wolf drafted and then traded to Homie as a parting gift when he went to Seattle.

We have a GM who overpayed a suckass locker room snitch linebacker ,whose gotten one tackle each in each of his last two games , and trotted us out a backup talent at QB as a franchise pick under development .

SoulDawg74 wrote:Nobody pre draft without a rookie wage scale in place was going to pay another Black QB even more money than than Russell and eclipse the Sam Bradford stratosphere.

SoulDawg

Nobody was going to have to pay Cam Newton that kind of money because there never would've been a CBA without the rookie wage scale. So any team picking him would've either been paying him according to the new scale or not paying him at all whilst he sat and waited for the season to start.

I can buy character concerns and questions about his downfield throwing ability/accuracy as reasons why he was debated, but not the money. Hell, I was one of his supporters and even I didn't think he'd throw the ball this well this quickly.

SoulDawg74 wrote:My point of contention is none of the so called exspurts saw what I saw in Newton

Did you see the same thing in Sanchez, Richard Bartell and Daryl Clark?

SD:

Sanchez has a 4-2 playoff record with all those wins produced on the road .

We don't even have a QB who won four games by himself in the regular season let alone the playoffs, since Anderson won 10

I advocated Sanchez over both Anderson and Quinn whose Cock we couldn't pull out of your mouth ., and still do .

Bartel and Mccoy aren't much different , both have backup talent .

Clark was a victim of the NFL shunning Black QB projects because of Jamarcus Russell and Mike Vick fucking up back to back , a fifth or sixth round flyer for him would have garnered more than the fifth or sixth rounder we drafted in his stead , and he certainly couldn't have been worse than keeping Brady and Anderson and by passing not only Sanchez but Freeman and Mathews all in the same draft.

Newton is the stud I projected and then some .

But i forgot we didn't need him either , because you told me Colt was the shizzle , while gargling Brady's taste outta your mouth.

SoulDawg74 wrote:Nobody pre draft without a rookie wage scale in place was going to pay another Black QB even more money than than Russell and eclipse the Sam Bradford stratosphere.

SoulDawg

Nobody was going to have to pay Cam Newton that kind of money because there never would've been a CBA without the rookie wage scale. So any team picking him would've either been paying him according to the new scale or not paying him at all whilst he sat and waited for the season to start.

I can buy character concerns and questions about his downfield throwing ability/accuracy as reasons why he was debated, but not the money. Hell, I was one of his supporters and even I didn't think he'd throw the ball this well this quickly.

SD:

I pointed out to anybody listening he was being tutored by no less than Warren Moon himself who could flick 40 yard passes with just his wrists .

I also pulled out a article by Dilfer who gave a preview these so called experts were on crack .

Dilfer categorically called him a stud and a superstar the real deal who could make all the throws .

However on the Wage scale , with all due respect Hiko

Nothing was set in stone at the draft , there was talk of not even playing the season , so anybody with the #1 pick was faoing the very real possibility of having to come up with a Sam Bradford type monetary deal plus 10% as the signing bonus , under the old rules.

Fresh off the Jamarcus Russell catastrophe and Vick screwing up his $100 million dollar deal in Atlanta enter Cam Newton

motherscratcher wrote:SD - Are you saying that Carolina trading their pick 16 years ago is a track record?

SD:

They had a history of trading that pick including their 2010 #1 and the 95 pick which was #1 overall .

In fact the author of that article drew the same analogy where they could move back and still net a QB , which IMO the Panthers would have jumped on with a new defensive minded coach who had an incumbent #2 investment already in place.

My point all along was Carolina wanted out , they couldn't even open up a conversation with the other 31 GM's because nobody amongst the so called ex spurts had the guts to make a trade fearing they would get Jamrcus Russelled .

Nobody pre draft without a rookie wage scale in place was going to pay another Black QB even more money than than Russell and eclipse the Sam Bradford stratosphere .

Thats just a fact of life , and that was the 800 pound gorilla in the room , when Carolina made their happy face after not even receiving a phone call as to what they might want for the pick.

That babee was there for the taking , with no takers.

SoulDawg

You may be right about all of that...or none of it. Probably somewhere in between. But in the immortal words of Brandt:

"Well Dude, we just don't know."

My objection comes form you constantly bringing up the same thing over and over again about Newton as if it's some kind of established fact that we could have traded up but refused because Cam is black and Jamarcus Russell etc etc etc.

We cant just assume that it was on the tadle and we could have done it. Now, I'll grant you that we cannot assume the opposite either.

SoulDawg74 wrote:However on the Wage scale , with all due respect Hiko

Nothing was set in stone at the draft , there was talk of not even playing the season , so anybody with the #1 pick was faoing the very real possibility of having to come up with a Sam Bradford type monetary deal plus 10% as the signing bonus , under the old rules.

Fresh off the Jamarcus Russell catastrophe and Vick screwing up his $100 million dollar deal in Atlanta enter Cam Newton

SoulDawg

I agree there was talk of cancelling games, but my point is that if games/season was indeed cancelled, whatever team drafted Cam wouldn't be paying him a dime b/c he wouldn't be under contract. And believe me, if games were lost, the owners would've hunkered down and waited for the players to cave on EVERYTHING (like the NBA owners are doing), so there was never any danger of being forced to pay Cam $100 mil because there was never any chance of a CBA passing that didn't have the rookie scale in it. The rookie scale wasn't even a big point of contention - the NFLPA had a window dressing protest to it, at best.

motherscratcher wrote:SD - Are you saying that Carolina trading their pick 16 years ago is a track record?

SD:

They had a history of trading that pick including their 2010 #1 and the 95 pick which was #1 overall .

In fact the author of that article drew the same analogy where they could move back and still net a QB , which IMO the Panthers would have jumped on with a new defensive minded coach who had an incumbent #2 investment already in place.

My point all along was Carolina wanted out , they couldn't even open up a conversation with the other 31 GM's because nobody amongst the so called ex spurts had the guts to make a trade fearing they would get Jamrcus Russelled .

Nobody pre draft without a rookie wage scale in place was going to pay another Black QB even more money than than Russell and eclipse the Sam Bradford stratosphere .

Thats just a fact of life , and that was the 800 pound gorilla in the room , when Carolina made their happy face after not even receiving a phone call as to what they might want for the pick.

That babee was there for the taking , with no takers.

SoulDawg

You may be right about all of that...or none of it. Probably somewhere in between. But in the immortal words of Brandt:

"Well Dude, we just don't know."

My objection comes form you constantly bringing up the same thing over and over again about Newton as if it's some kind of established fact that we could have traded up but refused because Cam is black and Jamarcus Russell etc etc etc.

We cant just assume that it was on the tadle and we could have done it. Now, I'll grant you that we cannot assume the opposite either.

but, the point is...what the hell difference does it make now?

SD:

Going forward people who post their stoopid little one liners , won't be so arrogant knowing that shit will find its way back in their face .

The difference it makes is why we keep score at high school games or who fucked the Prom Queen because it matters .

Course if you were ever on the right side of one of these arguments then I wouldn't have to point that out would I .

and BTW ..

I never authored an I told ya so post on Cam , not when he was drafted #1 and when I could have again when he started his rookie year with his hair on fire or when another poster graciously opened up that subject on this board.

I addressed a point about Newton directly , and I proffered my opinion with backup , which contained adult highly flammable info from my perspective on a subject most are too chickenshit to discuss.

It wasn't done capriciously or repeatedly without merit or purpose , but logically concisely and thoroughly in direct response to Hiko , just to keep the record straight .

When you grow the fuck up , and quit responding and thinking as a child , you'll understand these things better .

The WR [b]corpse IS the worst in the entire NFL, [tho Little showed up well yesterday]Cribbs and MoMass start for no one other than Cleveland

There are 2 rookies starting on the DL

A rookie in the secondary yesterday

^^^^^^ That .

Colt shows up on Sundays for a shoot-out with no weapons. Fill the other 16 areas of need unless a QB falls from heaven.

^^^^^^ That... is incredibly disingenous.

One of the worst O Lines in the NFL... pshaw! Do you watch other teams? Have you seen Philly's line? Chicago's? Atlanta's? And those are just the supposedly "good" teams. Total falsity.

Not sure what the LB corps has to do with Colt McCoy.

And saying the WR corps is one of the worst in the league is a chicken-and-egg thing. Certainly, they're not one the best, but do the QB's look bad b/c the WR's suck, or do the WR's look bad b/c they have Derek Anderson/Brady Quinn/Jake Delhomme/Colt McCoy throwing to them? Chicago's got no Receivers of note, yet Cutler seems to be functional (and with a horrible O Line too!)

The rookies on the D Line are 2 of the better players on the team, and also have nothing to do with Colt McCoy.

There was a rookie starting in the secondary? Are you counting Skrine, the nickelback? And, again, nothing to do with McCoy.

I've heard excuses about every single QB the Browns have had since '99, and I've always said the same thing - sure, some of the excuses are valid, but in the end they don't mean shit, either you get it done or you fail. Cry me a river for all the mediocre QB's of the world that could've might've been OK had they just been drafted by last year's Super Bowl champ.

If you want to prove that it's all someone else's fault, don't badly miss the Receivers the few times that they are open. That'd be a starting place for me to have sympathy for the dude.

My short version had the entire team sucking ass and the sucking of ass not being relegated to any one position or player....

I find it incredulous that some want to compare this team and its situation to any other, then get their panties in a knot when someone/I compare McCoy's pro start to Breese's...never mind that in his 2nd yr McCoy has had only one training camp..

There isn't anyone more irrational than Browns Fan

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

^^^^^im not even sure it's fair to say he had one camp, FMB. If reports are true, he might as well have been a ball boy when Mangini was here. And this year with the strike....well maybe he had about a half a camp. Maybe we need to give him more time.

But damn if he doesn't look worse every time he runs out there. I can't explain that. I'm willing to give him the rest of the year(as if there is an alternative) but my hopes are not very high anymore.

motherscratcher wrote:^^^^^im not even sure it's fair to say he had one camp, FMB. If reports are true, he might as well have been a ball boy when Mangini was here. And this year with the strike....well maybe he had about a half a camp. Maybe we need to give him more time.

But damn if he doesn't look worse every time he runs out there. I can't explain that. I'm willing to give him the rest of the year(as if there is an alternative) but my hopes are not very high anymore.

He does have the year, so things should be pretty clear to most of us several weeks down the road. It's not like rational people are going to be screaming for Seneca Wallace, because they feel that'll win the Browns 6 games, instead of 4.

Yup, there is as much point to putting in Wallace as the is to putting in Bauser down in CBus.

Before the season what I expected (hoped is probably more appropriate) is we would see a Colt who was calm in the pocket, could scramble, could read a defense, was accurate, could lead a team, and had an arm that was adequate because of all of those other things. I guess I'm a hopeless romantic.

At this juncture he appears to be none of those things. It's a bummer but there it is. He gets the season but my guess is I will be on board the "trade everything including the kitchen sink" for Luck train in January. And I don't think the receivers or lack of training camp, or bad play calling will have helped him. But I don't think we will be able to honestly use those things as an excuse for what we see when he plays.

motherscratcher wrote:Yup, there is as much point to putting in Wallace as the is to putting in Bauser down in CBus.

Before the season what I expected (hoped is probably more appropriate) is we would see a Colt who was calm in the pocket, could scramble, could read a defense, was accurate, could lead a team, and had an arm that was adequate because of all of those other things. I guess I'm a hopeless romantic.

At this juncture he appears to be none of those things. It's a bummer but there it is. He gets the season but my guess is I will be on board the "trade everything including the kitchen sink" for Luck train in January. And I don't think the receivers or lack of training camp, or bad play calling will have helped him. But I don't think we will be able to honestly use those things as an excuse for what we see when he plays.

Who knows. Maybe he'll change my mind again.

SD:

Shurmur saw one training camp of Colt and promptly signed Bradford's backup .

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:My short version had the entire team sucking ass and the sucking of ass not being relegated to any one position or player....

I find it incredulous that some want to compare this team and its situation to any other, then get their panties in a knot when someone/I compare McCoy's pro start to Breese's...never mind that in his 2nd yr McCoy has had only one training camp..

There isn't anyone more irrational than Browns Fan

I completely buy your short version. And you're right, McCoy could go on to become Brees. I doubt it, I think you doubt it, but it's not out of the question.

But like someone (mother?) said, he needs to make progress, not look worse. And making excuses for him just doesn't work for me. NFL QB's either get it done or they don't. I watched a Bears game a couple weeks ago (against Detroit) where Jay Cutler was just getting killed on every play behind that sieve O Line but was still making play after play to a WR corps that's every bit as lame as ours. And I don't even consider Cutler a Top 10 QB. They lost, but not because of Cutler.

When the Browns lose, a significant portion of it is because Colt can't get things going for more than a couple drives in the 2nd Q.

Colt had a training camp? Oh, you mean the one last year, when they wouldn't get him a playbook and he didn't get meaningful snaps till the 4th game?

Yeah, bet that helped.

P.S. This debate isn't going to quit this year as long as Colt puts up the numbers he is. Just enough competence in a rookie season to a) merit the whole season as looks, b) put up respectable end of the year numbers (20-13 td/int,a shitwack of yards, and at least 2 come from behind victories) and c) spark 6 months of SD shrieking about which QB we're taking in the first round.

I can't wait.

(to suck start a shotgun)

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.