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As i said, he appreciated formerly a temperament with a stretch about twice as strong as in my temperament, what in consequence would imply that his perception is not very reliable, an option i don´t believe he is really interested in.

I think you refer to Cordier tuning, with pure 5ths instead of pure 12ths. If one would compare pure 12ths tuning to a Botox treatment, one might compare pure 5ths tuning to a surgical facelift.

However it can not be denied that a botox treatment can make a face look nicer, so Pat's comment could be construed as a compliment. A way to improve the old ET face

I have troubles to evaluate a tuning directly from a piece of music been played on a piano. I prefer to analyse different intervals to hear their quality and progression of beat rates.

Yes, Rafael, I think we all have that problem. Especially analyzing tunings abstractly, void of the music played. Then again, why would you? That said, I'm well aware that a tuning can be presented in a favorable way by playing music that brings forth its forte.

Originally Posted by Gadzar

I have no objection to what I hear in this video and I am rather pleased by the sound of the piano. So IMHO it is a top quality tuning.

I can not hear the wideness in the mid range refered by Patrick. For me a wide mid range means to have too busy 8ves, M10ths and M17ths, which I don't hear in the video.

That's good for Bernhard's tuning. One more vote in favor of it, and I'm all for democracy. I see different opinions as a healthy thing, and dialogue per se as the only way to get further.

What I don't understand is the need for inquisition. We should be way past that in any kind of modern community - virtual or IRL.

Anyways, I'm still waiting for Bernhard to pinpoint down where I spoke favorably of a cordier stretch in the midrange. I'd really like to know... and *EDITOR'S REMARKS* - this not in a sarcastic, offensive, evil, strange w... hold on. It might be a strange way. But I do not believe in insinuations, I like plain text.

Anyways, I'm still waiting for Bernhard to pinpoint down where I spoke favorably of a cordier stretch in the midrange. I'd really like to know... and *EDITOR'S REMARKS* - this not in a sarcastic, offensive, evil, strange w... hold on. It might be a strange way. But I do not believe in insinuations, I like plain text.

ABove : based on a "pure 5th" sequence , with double octaves beating as heck !

is it noticed ?

No dissonance that bothered me either. At least this tuning seems to work very great in a lively acoustic place, for that kind of sparkling piano writing!

What really interested me though, is that I found this kind of tuning more coherent than a pure 12th tuning! Very interesting. Is it the obvious sparkling quality of the triads (with their pure 5ths) that causes this?

Any comments are welcome. I have to try this wild stretch myself, too It is a cordier-based tuning, right?

This was in July last year. I think I made it pretty clear that I found that tuning more together than pure 12ths. I was also puzzled as to why, as you can see in my reply.

Maybe pure 12ths, to me, are just hopelessly in the middle? I don't really know. I only hear what I hear, and for any of my listen-throughs there are many others that hear differently.

If there is anything to be read from experiences like these, I'd vote for something nourishing, not for something you'd like to take care of using the lawn mover.

Maybe pure 12ths, to me, are just hopelessly in the middle? I don't really know.

I am still guesssing what may cause your concerns about this aspect in my tuning. (Remember that your concerns included much more aspects at the beginning. For example your questioning of Wolfgang Dauner´s hearing (he was appreciating my tuning) because of his age, as you found the treble of my tunings to be stretched uncomfortably high at that time. Recently you were appreciating pure duodecimes yourself for the treble stretch and speak about your melodic ear (aged pretty fast?)). Remember your complaints about missing coherence in my tunings? Recently you also expressed your preference for duodecimes in the bass (with the higher involved bass partials, like 6/2 or 9/3) but for the midrange you are still fighting against them? How does this go together with the principle of coherence? I tend to believe that it is not your hearing that causes your offense, but rather your knowledge that it is something different, so it must be unnatural. I remember that you avoid talking about having used EBVTIII, when you tune for other musicians, to avoid that sort of offense.

Visit my class, it may help you to understand my tuning model as something pretty natural. I see a good chance that your ears may also follow then.

I am still guesssing what may cause your concerns about this aspect in my tuning. (Remember that your concerns included much more aspects at the beginning. For example your questioning of Wolfgang Dauner´s hearing (he was appreciating my tuning) because of his age, as you found the treble of my tunings to be stretched uncomfortably high at that time. Recently you were appreciating pure duodecimes yourself for the treble stretch and speak about your melodic ear (aged pretty fast?)). Remember your complaints about missing coherence in my tunings? Recently you also expressed your preference for duodecimes in the bass (with the higher involved bass partials, like 6/2 or 9/3) but for the midrange you are still fighting against them? How does this go together with the principle of coherence? I tend to believe that it is not your hearing that causes your offense, but rather your knowledge that it is something different, so it must be unnatural. I remember that you avoid talking about having used EBVTIII, when you tune for other musicians, to avoid that sort of offense.

Visit my class, it may help you to understand my tuning model as something pretty natural. I see a good chance that your ears may also follow then.

Now, hold on - I don't think I questioned Dauner's hearing, and if I did so I'm quite sure it was in a humorous manner. I simply stated that the older you get, the higher you'd like the upper part of the piano. I have encountered this several times in my musical everyday life, everything from singers pitching way above, to me myself stretching more with the earplugs inserted (thus kind of simulating older ears).

The pure duodecimes in the treble worked frighteningly well on the Yamaha U3 with EBVT III. I so hoped that I'd found something really good, and I was going to write you that night because the sound of the piano was truly awesome. Then I thought I'd hold on until I got a 2nd opinion, and when I tried the same thing on the Steinway B next night it didn't work at all :-/

And yes, I still tune the bass with a mix of 3:1 6:2 and 9:3, and I really like that sound. I see no contradiction between liking that sound and preferring a tighter midrange.

I think I expressed something about I liked the way it projected into the room in my OP comments on Isaac's sound clip. But no, I wouldn't like playing chords in the midrange of a cordier-type tuning.

Lastly, these are my aural impressions only. I do like your symmetric approach to piano tuning and I think your concept is personal and appealing to a lot of tuners and musicians. I'm sorry that I don't like this sound myself, but I can't help it. For any of my remarks you have a multitude of others endorsing it, so you must be doing good

I simply stated that the older you get, the higher you'd like the upper part of the piano.

You stated this in return to my reference of Dauner´s appreciation of my tuning and i can see no humour in this statement in this context. It was a clear ramp against my tuning implying that it may be appreciated by musicians with aged hearing.

Originally Posted by pppat

The pure duodecimes in the treble worked frighteningly well on the Yamaha U3 with EBVT III. I so hoped that I'd found something really good, and I was going to write you that night because the sound of the piano was truly awesome. Then I thought I'd hold on until I got a 2nd opinion, and when I tried the same thing on the Steinway B next night it didn't work at all :-/

I never promised that pure duodecimes work well on any piano with unequal temperaments. What i am stating is, that it works well on any piano with an equal temperament based on aurally pure duodecimes, as the beat masking effect is at the maximum then, along with improved melodic justness.

Originally Posted by pppat

And yes, I still tune the bass with a mix of 3:1 6:2 and 9:3, and I really like that sound. I see no contradiction between liking that sound and preferring a tighter midrange.

To me, it is a clear contradiciton of the coherence principle, to use pure duodecimes in the treble and bass, but not in the midrange. And by the way, today you posted in the EBVTIII thread, that you are using a 6:3 octave type in the midrange. This can come pretty close with a pure duodecime width on an instrument with a typical inharmonicity profile. To me, your hearing is different from what you are doing, because you want your hearing to be so. I believe your mind doesn´t want to accept something that is different from what you learned and have been accustomed to (for example to keyboard tunings in plain standard ET) so far in your life.

To me, it is a clear contradiciton of the coherence principle, to use duodecimes in the treble and bass, but not in the midrange.

Yes, I think you've made very clear that you want pure 12ths all over the piano. There are other ways of tuning, though.

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

And by the way, today you posted in the EBVTIII thread, that you are using a 6:3 octave type in the midrange. This can come pretty close with a pure duodecime width on an instrument with a typical inharmonicity profile. To me, your hearing is different from what you are doing, because you want your hearing to be so. I believe your mind doesn´t want to accept something that is different from what you learned and have been accustomed to (for example to keyboard tunings in plain standard ET) so far in your life.

Now, this is not the first time I get misquoted, or then you simply can not comprehend. This happens time after time, and I'm getting a little tired of it.

This is what I wrote in the EBVT III/TuneLab thread:

Originally Posted by pppat

I have an idea that might be worth a try before going split scale. From my aural tuning experience, the "octave size mean" in this part of the piano (across the tenor break) is 6:3. They usually work on small instruments as well as on large ones (although I sometimes go beyond 6:3's on really nice full-scaled grands)

Did I write that I tune the whole midrange in 6:3? Of course not. You have to stop misquoting me just to prove your point.

I never stated the opposite. Throwing in arbitrary true statements does not invalidate my statement about the coherence violation. I never stated that a tuning must be coherent, but coherence was one of your own preferences when argumenting against my tunings.

Originally Posted by pppat

Did I write that I tune the whole midrange in 6:3? Of course not. You have to stop misquoting me just to prove your point.

Did i write which part of the midrange i was mentioning? Sorry i see no misquote. What is tiring to me, is that you often forget what you have said previously and what is often in a contradiction of what you are saying later. (see your statement about Cordier tuning for example).

I never stated that a tuning must be coherent, but coherence was one of your own preferences when argumenting against my tunings.

This might be a language issue. When I speak about together, coherent or whatever, I basically mean that I do not particularly like when the piano sounds like it is tuned to several pitches at once.

That is my impression of your pure 12ths tuning, and I find it even more prominent in the video clip for the german seminar. I can't help that my ears don't like it. Like I said before, there are many others that do like it. This should be enough confirmation that your tuning is good.

Anyways, this discussion is not exactly going anywhere, we are just wasting each others energy. I remember me stating that EBVT-dislikers shouldn't feel that they have to repeat their feelings about the temperament into boredom and back. I realize that I'm not exactly better myself So, let's just drop this and get on with other more productive stuff.

The video trailer for my class (Tuning the Stopper OnlyPure Temperament Aurally) had a little flaw in one of the text windows, here is the new version:

Bernhard Stopper

I am also offering the OnlyPure class in June in germany, for those thinking about attending my class at the PTG convention, the german video trailer may be of some interest too, as it contains another tuning record (Beethoven), here is the video:

Hey Ryan,You may want to ask Darrell Fandrich. I think he's already planning on going. A class on action geometryfrom him alone would make me go to KC. And he's driving. I was at his shop the other day and his actions are out of this world nice!!

Taming Inertia: Creating a Touch to Die ForDarrell Fandrich, RPT, Seattle, WA Chapter and John Rhodes, RPT, Portland, OR ChapterExcessive inertia is the hugely critical gremlin responsible for the heavy tendon-tearing touch that plagues players of the majority of new pianos and rebuilds. This class gives you practical tools to accurately quantify, predict and correct action inertia – resulting in a touch to die for…every time.

Last May I had Darryl Fandrich in my backyard along with 35 other members when I hosted a BBQ for the PTG Canada (now CAPT). I had an opportunity to chat with him for a while; nice fellow… he will talk all day long about pianos if you like……..

Taming Inertia: Creating a Touch to Die ForDarrell Fandrich, RPT, Seattle, WA Chapter and John Rhodes, RPT, Portland, OR ChapterExcessive inertia is the hugely critical gremlin responsible for the heavy tendon-tearing touch that plagues players of the majority of new pianos and rebuilds. This class gives you practical tools to accurately quantify, predict and correct action inertia – resulting in a touch to die for…every time.

Unfortunately, we received an email from the PTG on June 3rd that this class has been cancelled. The PTG website has all of the updates of who's teaching what & which classes are still available.

Thanks for bringing this up, M.O.P. The good news is that next year the conference will be in Bellevue, Washington, which is just an hour and half away from the Fandrich's home. They felt really bad about not being able to teach this year, but are very excited to present an even better program next year!

Washington? Oh, that's excellent news! I love the Bellevue area. I talked to Barbara Fandrich a couple of weeks ago & they are very excited about their new home. Anyway, Kansas City is still offering great classes & lots to do after hours - we're looking forward to seeing old friends and making new ones!

Yes, there most certainly are lots of classes to choose from alright! That's always been my biggest problem!! Which ones to attend! I'll be there too as will my son! Looking forward to it! Tons of new classes....cool!

I took the liberty of using the availability of the PTG website that shows all of the classes to send the link to several of my clients including my college so they could have a look-see at what types of classes we have available for technicians to attend. Most people don't have a clue that we can attend such wonderful events let alone that we even have any at all. All of my clients were very surprised at the variety of them and were also very impressed as to who some of the speakers were to be as well as the fact that so many manufacturer's are there.

Time is ticking away, but it is not too late to come to the convention in Kansas City!

One of the best things you can do for your career as a technician is attend the terrific business classes that are available and taught by some of the must successful techs in the business. Here's some examples:

45 Ways to Make Your Business More Successful by the PTG Economic Affairs Committee: Dozens of tips you can start using right away to get more clients, build your reputation, and boost your income!

The Business of Rebuilding by Wally Brooks: Learn proven approaches to coming up with professional estimates, appraisals, and contracts. Learn to successfully sell large and small restorations while covering your backside!

Cash is King! by Bruce Genck: A fast-paced information packed class presented by a 30-year professional.

Ethics by Isaac Sadigursky: You deal with some delicate issues with clients and colleagues everyday. Discuss ethical issues that affect your business and how to address them.

Gut Taxes by John Gallen: Taxes got you down? Let's gut your taxes. Are you doing what you can to lessen your tax burden? How will recent tax changes affect you and your business? Find all the Dutch loop-holes to which you are entitled!

Point Blank Business Plus Plus by Jack Wyatt: This is an updated version of Jacks famous and popular business class. Jack has definitely been an inspiration to me over the years! Much income is left unearned for services that pianos desperately need. By not pointing this out, we do our customers, our profession, and ourselves a great disservice.

Pricing Piano Service by Dale Probst: Explore a skill that is indispensable in developing a successful piano service business. Unfortunately, this critical segment of our craft continue to be mysterious, misunderstood, and even ignored.

45 Ways to Make Your Business More Successful by the PTG Economic Affairs Committee: Dozens of tips you can start using right away to get more clients, build your reputation, and boost your income!

Cash is King! by Bruce Genck: A fast-paced information packed class presented by a 30-year professional.

Point Blank Business Plus Plus by Jack Wyatt: This is an updated version of Jacks famous and popular business class. Jack has definitely been an inspiration to me over the years! Much income is left unearned for services that pianos desperately need. By not pointing this out, we do our customers, our profession, and ourselves a great disservice.

I just couldn't get out of bed for Dale's class on piano pricing.... To darn tired.... But, the other 3 were fantastic!