The problem is D&D's insistence that the show won't go beyond 7 seasons, so they ran out of time to properly do these story lines, which has resulted in these weird, abrupt story line arcs trying to cram everything into the last two seasons. HBO is pretty pissed, they wanted 10-12 seasons but D&D refused.

MLOhawks wrote:The problem is D&D's insistence that the show won't go beyond 7 seasons, so they ran out of time to properly do these story lines, which has resulted in these weird, abrupt story line arcs trying to cram everything into the last two seasons. HBO is pretty pissed, they wanted 10-12 seasons but D&D refused.

MLOhawks wrote:The problem is D&D's insistence that the show won't go beyond 7 seasons, so they ran out of time to properly do these story lines, which has resulted in these weird, abrupt story line arcs trying to cram everything into the last two seasons. HBO is pretty pissed, they wanted 10-12 seasons but D&D refused.

I'm pretty sure they're planning for 8.

There's two more seasons but they'll be around 7 episodes each. They said they already have the end planned out and from the end of this season, there's 10-15 episodes remaining.

Arya's storyline IMO was meant to create a mature well rounded killer who would always end up being a Stark. I saw an edit on youtube where it cuts out all the fluff from the previous episodes and it's just Waif given permission to kill her and then Arya leading her into her dark room trap. It makes way more sense than her suddenly become uncharacteristically exposed resulting in the stabbing.

MLOhawks wrote:The problem is D&D's insistence that the show won't go beyond 7 seasons, so they ran out of time to properly do these story lines, which has resulted in these weird, abrupt story line arcs trying to cram everything into the last two seasons. HBO is pretty pissed, they wanted 10-12 seasons but D&D refused.

I'm pretty sure they're planning for 8.

There's two more seasons but they'll be around 7 episodes each. They said they already have the end planned out and from the end of this season, there's 10-15 episodes remaining.

Arya's storyline IMO was meant to create a mature well rounded killer who would always end up being a Stark. I saw an edit on youtube where it cuts out all the fluff from the previous episodes and it's just Waif given permission to kill her and then Arya leading her into her dark room trap. It makes way more sense than her suddenly become uncharacteristically exposed resulting in the stabbing.

Why have they decided to end it? We've spent all this time waiting for white walkers and dragons. I could watch another 30 episodes of those two things alone.

MLOhawks wrote:The problem is D&D's insistence that the show won't go beyond 7 seasons, so they ran out of time to properly do these story lines, which has resulted in these weird, abrupt story line arcs trying to cram everything into the last two seasons. HBO is pretty pissed, they wanted 10-12 seasons but D&D refused.

Where'd you see this?

Everything I've read and seen from Benioff and Weiss, the showrunners has said they thought about 7-8 seasons tops, even if Martin decides to go longer with his books. Mainly because of the insane production cost, schedule and trying to keep all the actors for longer than this is next to impossible.

I'd rather have one season too short, than 1-2 seasons too long. Nothing worse than a show dragging on forever for the sake of ratings and money. I'm looking at you Walking Dead.

MLOhawks wrote:The problem is D&D's insistence that the show won't go beyond 7 seasons, so they ran out of time to properly do these story lines, which has resulted in these weird, abrupt story line arcs trying to cram everything into the last two seasons. HBO is pretty pissed, they wanted 10-12 seasons but D&D refused.

Where'd you see this?

Everything I've read and seen from Benioff and Weiss, the showrunners has said they thought about 7-8 seasons tops, even if Martin decides to go longer with his books. Mainly because of the insane production cost, schedule and trying to keep all the actors for longer than this is next to impossible.

I'd rather have one season too short, than 1-2 seasons too long. Nothing worse than a show dragging on forever for the sake of ratings and money. I'm looking at you Walking Dead.

When you think about it, it's pretty much like creating a 10-hour studio quality film every year. That's nuts.

MLOhawks wrote:The problem is D&D's insistence that the show won't go beyond 7 seasons, so they ran out of time to properly do these story lines, which has resulted in these weird, abrupt story line arcs trying to cram everything into the last two seasons. HBO is pretty pissed, they wanted 10-12 seasons but D&D refused.

Where'd you see this?

Everything I've read and seen from Benioff and Weiss, the showrunners has said they thought about 7-8 seasons tops, even if Martin decides to go longer with his books. Mainly because of the insane production cost, schedule and trying to keep all the actors for longer than this is next to impossible.

I'd rather have one season too short, than 1-2 seasons too long. Nothing worse than a show dragging on forever for the sake of ratings and money. I'm looking at you Walking Dead.

When you think about it, it's pretty much like creating a 10-hour studio quality film every year. That's nuts.

Yep, every GOT episode has the production value of a movie, a good time to be alive seeing all this amazingly produced TV.

In a vacuum it's incredible enough, but when you think of the big picture, shows like Boardwalk Empire, Penny Dreadful and GOT has made every other cable and premium network step up their game.

Tical21 wrote: Are we just really happy that the good guys got a victory?

Yeah that's about where I'm at. It's more like watching Seahawks football to me than a tv show. I just want them to win now and I don't really care all that much how we get there. Most of this season has been forgettable to me.

Danys in trouble, wonder if the dragons will come breathe fire on her enemies?

Jon is in big trouble. I wonder if someone is going to crash the party and bail him out?

All the years of building up the most evil, devious Ramsay character, and he meets his ending without twists, games and fun? Very anti-climactic.

I was thinking the overriding opinion of this episode was going to be harshly negative. Are we just really happy that the good guys got a victory?

Did you think the overall episode was terrible or just that the good guys won was terrible? I think you knew coming in from a storytelling standpoint they would take Winterfell back since it'll be the first defense in the coming war. I was much more interested in how it would play out to get to the finish line than who would win.

From a production stance, that was one of if not the most impressive episodes of television I've ever seen. The opening barrage of both sides flying into each other around Jon was incredible. It was fast paced, real, and didn't let up. I think someone not knowing anything about the show would have been very impressed with last night alone.

Ramsay's death also made sense to me. He's been an awful person yes, but his main purpose was to get people back up north. He would have probably won had he not sent in everyone to finish them off before the Vale showed up. There have been hints since season 5 Littlefinger would be a big part of the northern politics, unlikely he would be involved with Ramsay in the way he will be going forward. Excited to seeing him get back to his manipulative ways.

Tical21 wrote:I was thinking the overriding opinion of this episode was going to be harshly negative. Are we just really happy that the good guys got a victory?

Cause you're in the vast minority............most things I've read this morning on last night episodes was that it was not only amazing, but that it's the greatest episode in TV history, with two enormously complicated action set pieces, Dany and The Battle of the Bastards. Both deftly pulled off.

Not sure how you can be critical of what we saw last night, from Rickon's death, to Jon being crushed, Tormund going full berserker beast mode, Wun Wun's emotional death.................to Sansa getting her sweet revenge.

Unless you're names George R. R. Martin and you just like to be a sick bastard and crush your fans souls by killing off beloved characters, THIS is what fans of the show want to see. Dany finally taking her dragons and kicking ass, Ramsey getting what's coming to him and Jon's rise to power.

Tical21 wrote:I was thinking the overriding opinion of this episode was going to be harshly negative. Are we just really happy that the good guys got a victory?

Cause you're in the vast minority............most things I've read this morning on last night episodes was that it was not only amazing, but that it's the greatest episode in TV history, with two enormously complicated action set pieces, Dany and The Battle of the Bastards. Both deftly pulled off.

Not sure how you can be critical of what we saw last night, from Rickon's death, to Jon being crushed, Tormund going full berserker beast mode, Wun Wun's emotional death.................to Sansa getting her sweet revenge.

Unless you're names George R. R. Martin and you just like to be a sick bastard and crush your fans souls by killing off beloved characters, THIS is what fans of the show want to see. Dany finally taking her dragons and kicking ass, Ramsey getting what's coming to him and Jon's rise to power.

We all knew Ramsay Bolton was going to get his at some point. We've been waiting for it for several seasons now. I've looked forward to his death, thought about it, probably dreamed of it. The only question was going to be how it happened. And this was going to be fun, right? This was going to be this insanely evil little bastard finally getting his. The good guys were going to get him. They were going to use some incredible plan that Ramsay hadn't seen coming, and you were going to get to see that look on his face the moment he realized he had been bested. They were going to torture him or use his insanity against him, or something really fun. The audience was really going to thoroughly get satisfaction in the ridding of this evil bastard. Then he gets beat in a less than surprising manner in battle, Jon Snow punches him a bunch of times, and Sansa feeds him to the dogs. No wit, no games, no fun. I just thought it was quickly and half-heartedly done, and he was eliminated just for the sake of being eliminated. I've been waiting all this time and got that?

I'm sure the CGI fans loved this, the cinematography and music during the battle was great. The Dragons looked ridiculous, but I think it would be about impossible to make fire breathing dragons not look at least a little ridiculous. All was lost, and Dany came through with her dragons to kill her enemies...again. Rad.

Again, I think the fanfare after this episode is from people celebrating victory, not celebrating necessarily compelling writing and television.

Tical21 wrote:I'm sure the CGI fans loved this, the cinematography and music during the battle was great. The Dragons looked ridiculous, but I think it would be about impossible to make fire breathing dragons not look at least a little ridiculous. All was lost, and Dany came through with her dragons to kill her enemies...again. Rad.

The VFX on GOT is as good, or better than any big budget motion picture, and that's a ridiculous thing to even contemplate and wrap our heads around, considering the scope and detail of what GOT's is doing on a week to week basis. It's basically a full feature film every episode. So to criticize this part of the show? Confusing to me.

Yeah the first couple times Dany was on the back of Drogon, it wasn't all that convincing, but this season? It's very good. Variety even did a short on the VFX this year.

Maybe some people are spoiled now, but if you would have told us even 5-10 years ago that a show like this was even possible on TV? No way in hell I'd say yes.

Tical21 wrote:I'm sure the CGI fans loved this, the cinematography and music during the battle was great. The Dragons looked ridiculous, but I think it would be about impossible to make fire breathing dragons not look at least a little ridiculous. All was lost, and Dany came through with her dragons to kill her enemies...again. Rad.

The VFX on GOT is as good, or better than any big budget motion picture, and that's a ridiculous thing to even contemplate and wrap our heads around, considering the scope and detail of what GOT's is doing on a week to week basis. It's basically a full feature film every episode. So to criticize this part of the show? Confusing to me.

Yeah the first couple times Dany was on the back of Drogon, it wasn't all that convincing, but this season? It's very good. Variety even did a short on the VFX this year.

Maybe some people are spoiled now, but if you would have told us even 5-10 years ago that a show like this was even possible on TV? No way in hell I'd say yes.

The only part that looked bad to me was the actual breathing of fire. I'm sure it was amazing and insane and all that. It is out of my wheelhouse, so I'll defer to those that are into that kind of thing. Maybe it looked way better than the dragons of a decade ago, I dunno.

Some people just will never be happy, but the dialogue and surprise was there as far as Ramsey goes, he didn't expect the Vale to arrive, neither did Jon for that matter, if you missed the part where Ramsey was looking at Littlefinger and and Sansa as they came up and over the hill and the Calvary was attacking his army then you missed a big key, he was wondering what the hell and who the hell, then looked at Sansa with you Bitch look, as her and Littlefinger had a smile on their face.

Also the beating of Ramsey by Jon was him dumping his rage, he looked up and saw Sansa and stopped, might be because it was something he didn't want her to see him acting like or because she deserved the final word.

But he being in the Kennels and her saying he will be forgotten and everything he represents, being ate a live by the Hounds he raised and abused by starvation was fitting, he had fed so many of his prey to them over the years. Her pulling the handle to open their kennels and making her first kill was also a signal that she had stepped up in the game as well.

The CGI with Dani and the Dragons I thought was awesome, having a rider on a Dragon and moving with it like she was is something we have not seen on the level of success they pulled off, Eragon had a similar situation but it was no where as good as this was.

I haven't been that anxious watching something on TV since probably Super Bowl XLVIII. That moment when Ramsey was leading Rickon out into the field, I don't know if I've ever felt that watching TV before. And then Jon throwing all caution to the wind and charging alone, it was the most captivating thing I've ever watched, as far as I can remember. I couldn't watch yet I couldn't look away at the same time. It was sensory & emotional overload. I feel like Ramsey got exactly what he should have exactly how he should have. I thought it was perfect.

I get why some people have been disappointed with this season and seeing it as a bit predictable. Martin may not be a great writer but he had years to think about what a character was going to say or do next in a given situation at a given time. The dialog and character reactions this season have been less detailed, a bit formulated, and therefore a bit underwhelming.

That being said, one of my favorite parts of last night’s episode was Sansa watching the dogs start to tear into Ramsay. She had started to turn away to leave as the dogs tore into him but then stopped herself and just stared stoned-face at the carnage that ensued. That’s the subtlety that I think the show kind of lacked this season.

The other was Jon almost suffocating during the battle under the weight of dead bodies, struggling to not ‘drown’ and swimming for air. That was as intense as the actual action taking place.

There doesn't always have to be an unexpected twist to make a show compelling. This is the payoff for what's been built up all season. The twist was the Knights of the Vale crashing Ramsey's party. Ramsey beat Jon at his own game by slaughtering Ricken the way he did. Then Sansa showed up with the Trump card and defeated Ramsey because she was a step ahead of him. We saw her emerge as a legitimate leader albeit a young one. Remember, Jon carries no name. Sansa is the Stark name right now.

Game of feminism is in full swing and I'm really not even mad. Jon still has some growing up to do in a lot of ways. He is too emotional. For the first time since the beginning of the show Sansa is a compelling character.

IMO a "twist" at this point outside of what we expected (Littlefinger and the Vale to the rescue) would have felt like lazy writing to me. You can't have a ridiculous twist out of left field in every episode.

FearTheBeak wrote:I get why some people have been disappointed with this season and seeing it as a bit predictable. Martin may not be a great writer but he had years to think about what a character was going to say or do next in a given situation at a given time. The dialog and character reactions this season have been less detailed, a bit formulated, and therefore a bit underwhelming.

That being said, one of my favorite parts of last night’s episode was Sansa watching the dogs start to tear into Ramsay. She had started to turn away to leave as the dogs tore into him but then stopped herself and just stared stoned-face at the carnage that ensued. That’s the subtlety that I think the show kind of lacked this season.

The other was Jon almost suffocating during the battle under the weight of dead bodies, struggling to not ‘drown’ and swimming for air. That was as intense as the actual action taking place.

Have to credit the director, he's really good, the two previous episodes which I thought missed the mark as far as connecting the story and the believability were another director, I think he missed the mark as far as interpreting the writers story and connecting it to the characters and actors badly, hope he isn't back next season.

JesterHawk wrote:There doesn't always have to be an unexpected twist to make a show compelling. This is the payoff for what's been built up all season. The twist was the Knights of the Vale crashing Ramsey's party. Ramsey beat Jon at his own game by slaughtering Ricken the way he did. Then Sansa showed up with the Trump card and defeated Ramsey because she was a step ahead of him. We saw her emerge as a legitimate leader albeit a young one. Remember, Jon carries no name. Sansa is the Stark name right now.

Game of feminism is in full swing and I'm really not even mad. Jon still has some growing up to do in a lot of ways. He is too emotional. For the first time since the beginning of the show Sansa is a compelling character.

IMO a "twist" at this point outside of what we expected (Littlefinger and the Vale to the rescue) would have felt like lazy writing to me. You can't have a ridiculous twist out of left field in every episode.

What I find funny in your statement is that Jon was too emotional, he saved it all for one episode, he was dealing with being resurrected and was kind of just meandering thru the season until last night. I really think his true rebirth was when he was being pushed down in the pile and had a choice to give up or fight back up, he appeared to no longer be a defeated spirit after that, that's also when we seen him go into a rage mode concerning Ramsey.

Oh and as far as Jon not having a name, it is coming, the amount of times this season that he has been referenced and called a Bastard is there for a reason, either someone will produce Neds letter to him that was suppose to be delivered that he gave to Varys, the decree from Robb making him the heir of Winterfell and a legitimate Stark, or Brans vision of the Tower of joy and Howland Reeds substantiation when he appears.

Tical21 wrote:Do we agree that the end of the series Dany, Tyrion, Sansa and Jon Snow are all living, and basically all of the villains are dead?

No, I think 2 of the 4 are dead.

Dani and Jon, Tyrion and Sansa of those 4 I think live on. Jon and Dani are going to be involved in a battle and fighting the White Walkers G.R.R.M. said the ending will be bittersweet, I think they die for the rest to live and the Dragons also perish.

Tyrion may also ride a Dragon though my guess, but the foreshadow of him having his own winery I think happens.

JesterHawk wrote:There doesn't always have to be an unexpected twist to make a show compelling. This is the payoff for what's been built up all season. The twist was the Knights of the Vale crashing Ramsey's party. Ramsey beat Jon at his own game by slaughtering Ricken the way he did. Then Sansa showed up with the Trump card and defeated Ramsey because she was a step ahead of him. We saw her emerge as a legitimate leader albeit a young one. Remember, Jon carries no name. Sansa is the Stark name right now.

Game of feminism is in full swing and I'm really not even mad. Jon still has some growing up to do in a lot of ways. He is too emotional. For the first time since the beginning of the show Sansa is a compelling character.

IMO a "twist" at this point outside of what we expected (Littlefinger and the Vale to the rescue) would have felt like lazy writing to me. You can't have a ridiculous twist out of left field in every episode.

What I find funny in your statement is that Jon was too emotional, he saved it all for one episode, he was dealing with being resurrected and was kind of just meandering thru the season until last night. I really think his true rebirth was when he was being pushed down in the pile and had a choice to give up or fight back up, he appeared to no longer be a defeated spirit after that, that's also when we seen him go into a rage mode concerning Ramsey.

Oh and as far as Jon not having a name, it is coming, the amount of times this season that he has been referenced and called a Bastard is there for a reason, either someone will produce Neds letter to him that was suppose to be delivered that he gave to Varys, the decree from Robb making him the heir of Winterfell and a legitimate Stark, or Brans vision of the Tower of joy and Howland Reeds substantiation when he appears.

I was referring specifically to his solo charge towards Ramsey when Ricken died. It was obvious that Ricken wasn't going to live and he should have been prepared for that. Sansa was, because she knew Ramsey. She told Jon as much and he didn't listen.

He has grown a lot as a commander and I agree that he needed to break out of the brooding and let the rage out, but that decision lost him the battle and cost him his life and his army if it weren't for Sansa.

Tical21 wrote:Do we agree that the end of the series Dany, Tyrion, Sansa and Jon Snow are all living, and basically all of the villains are dead?

But that's the thing, and what's beautiful about complex characters like Martin has created.........there's good and bad in each of them due to their complexities.

So other than abject sociopaths like Ramsey and Joffrey, there really are no "bad" characters. Even characters like Cersei, Littlefinger, Jamie, Tywin, The Hound and others that might be considered bad in the good vs evil landscape of the show have redeeming qualities and reasons for their actions........even to the point of rooting for them.

But to answer your question, the name of the series is The Song of Fire and Ice. That tells me it'll come down to Dany vs House Stark. Not sure how Tyrion and the Lannisters fit into the equation, other than the foe both of these factions have to ultimately defeat.

I was referring specifically to his solo charge towards Ramsey when Ricken died. It was obvious that Ricken wasn't going to live and he should have been prepared for that. Sansa was, because she knew Ramsey. She told Jon as much and he didn't listen.

He has grown a lot as a commander and I agree that he needed to break out of the brooding and let the rage out, but that decision lost him the battle and cost him his life and his army if it weren't for Sansa

If he had a Sniper rifle, but did you see the range he was shooting from with a Bow? It took seconds for those arrows to reach him, Sansa had written him off granted, but given the situation I think most would have tried, and Rickon could have zigzagged and made it harder also. As it was Jon almost got there.

Tical21 wrote:Do we agree that the end of the series Dany, Tyrion, Sansa and Jon Snow are all living, and basically all of the villains are dead?

But that's the thing, and what's beautiful about complex characters like Martin has created.........there's good and bad in each of them due to their complexities.

So other than abject sociopaths like Ramsey and Joffrey, there really are no "bad" characters. Even characters like Cersei, Littlefinger, Jamie, Tywin, The Hound and others that might be considered bad in the good vs evil landscape of the show have redeeming qualities and reasons for their actions........even to the point of rooting for them.

But to answer your question, the name of the series is The Song of Fire and Ice. That tells me it'll come down to Dany vs House Stark. Not sure how Tyrion and the Lannisters fit into the equation, other than the foe both of these factions have to ultimately defeat.

Yep, also makes sense. But I didn't want to leave Dany out, as I think she's a major player at the end.

While Martin is a sick bastard, I think even he knows this series should have at least a somewhat happy ending. Having millions of fans invested in your program or book series only to have Cersei take over or something like that would be stupid.

Why spend a decade setting up and foreshadowing certain major plot twists like R+L=J, Dany liberating Mereen and coming into power only to take a left turn and abruptly end the series without their vindication and victory?

Varys is on a mission for allies in Westeros, and maybe to see who has been feeding his little Birds while he is away, he is a master of disguise as well. He has a price on his head under current Kings Landing management, will he go to Kings Landing and the Tyrells, Dorne, or ? He needs to open up Kings Landing for a revolution and Chaos for Dani to come in and just sweep them over, killing Tommen would set that up as well.

Only if she was pregnant then she would be the Queen Regent, technically it should be the Hand, but the High Sparrow has combined Church and State so that's a lot of muddy water, in reality it should be Gendry who is still rowing his boat, he would have to be legitimized or maybe not, William the Conquerer was a Bastard that was made King.

Without Tommen she is really nothing. She has no blood ties Baratheon or Targaryan which is how Robert was able to be King due to his Targaryan Blood from his Grandmother. Even though Tommen is a bastard and has neither really and was set upoin the thrown by Cersie and Jamie under the guise of being Roberts Child till Ned found out after John Arrans the former Hand had done the same thing and was killed for it as well.

Scenario I'm rooting for: High Septon reveals to Tommen that he's an inbred little bastard, Tommen kills himself & Cersei stabs the High Septon in the face before using the wildfire to light up the whole of King's Landing. Or something along those lines.

Varys will use the tunnels inside the Red Keep and the Sept and whatever to sneak around and murder several people. Cersei will freak out and burn the place down with Wild Fire. Tommen will die. Arya will use her face shifting ninja skills to murder Walder Frey and a couple of his stooges at the Red Wedding 2.0. I still think Theon will get way too curious about the Dragons and get himself burned up.

The Night's Watch on The Wall will fall this episode and for the first time the ice zombies will enter into Southern Wall territory.