Perth v Melb Oct 27th

Another midday game in the West.Should be a good clash for two of the more fancied teams in the comp.The first of two games for Melbourne this round while Perth have to bounce back quickly after a loss in Brisbane.

Melbourne won't be a chance if Casper doesn’t find some form, Goulding defence got get back to last season as well. Perth will want to show the Brisbane loss was an aberration. Perth by 10 though i haven’t picked a winner yet this round.

I reckon local businesses will be pretty effected by what I'm assuming is a lack of people going out before/after the 12pm games, just a bit of an awkward time slot for a lot of people.

I also wonder what impact it has on profits around food/alcohol sales at the game. I feel like people will be a lot less likely to drink at the game at that time compared to an evening or late arvo game.

So maybe it helps cafes and other brunch-friendly places while it hurts bars. Swings and roundabouts.Last time I checked there were still a shitload of dining options in Perth & Northbridge other than Dim Sum places and pubs (if anything, Perth's problem atm seems to be too many eateries and not enough customers), and most houses still have a pantry and a fridge, so I think society will survive a few lunch time home games.

Luuuc considering all the work the team had done to build the game night experience and integrate it with the city it is a kick in the teeth. Critisicm is important, businesses are not after just survival but long term growth and sustained success. I and im sure many of the thousands attending games enjoyed been able to grab a bite, drink etc before or after, the time makes that more Awkward, its fact, and people should be allowed to make they point without getting shut down and labelled as whingers Abbey bloody time.

For those of us lucky enough to not live in Australia's over-entitled western outpost, 9GO’s broadcast has a bit of bball competition from the WNBL on sbs and the Invictus Games wheelchair bball final on the ABC.

It has to be an obvious decision to be called in favor of the visiting team.

Not sure exactly where United is at

Kennedy finding his feet and his role still, but didn't have much impact even after CG injury. Still a question mark. McCarron going ok. Seems comfortable enough being the spare parts guy playing multiple positions. Casper sub par so far this season, was good early and late but in between not so much....

White looks legit 2nd option, Perth will definitely make top 4 you'd think. Brandt a beast. But did go 1-1 this round with only the refs handing them the win on a silver platter, should've been 0-2 so... who knows

As a United fan though, it hurts to lose, but its comforting to know that it took an injury to the game's MVP and some joke calls, and 2 overtimes for your team to be overcome.

I remember early last season Cotton got 6 or 7 points from the free throw line drawing fouls on outside shots, Kicking his feet out and softest calls, United lost a close one. This feels like that but 100x worse.

Looking forward to the rematch in Melbourne- don't get to many games these days, but Monday dec 17 and Sunday feb 17, I'll be there and I'll be loud. Can't wait to watch United win with Gleeson whining like a girl as his team misses out on the extra service they get at home.

For real, f*****g pathetic couple of calls there back-to-back. Casper pushing off Norton for the offensive foul? He did not extend the arm one bit. Terrible call. And let's not even get started on the faux charge. Wasn't the official perfectly placed to call, literally behind Norton's back?

This will fall on deaf ears, but here goes. Perth gets a one sided fta count and its home cooking, adelaide and its they put more pressure on the defence. United shot 42 3pt attempts, perth attacked the paint more, put more pressure on the defence than united did, jjst like adelaide do, and everyone seems to be fine with that reasoning for Adelaide, so lets see if its a basketball discussion or perth hate forum? I know its the latter. Was the ware charge a block, yep. But lets not pretend there is any consistency or standard interpretation in the nbl for charge/block, there is multiple howlers a game and usually bith ways. However barlow could have got his 5th in the 4th for a hip check, casper easily fouled cotton before the cg43 play and terrico was put down on that take to the basket, even boone held terrico before rhe attempted dunk and foul on moller, i also notice no ome having issue with brandt and jervis getting crushed by multiple defenders. So as usual the refs left a heap to be desired, but perth got a few more breaks so the league is rigged

Lol if it weren't some fluke ass shooting by Melbourne the game wouldn’t even be close. Melbourne played as well as they can they still lost. As for Goulding well the United were down by 4 when he got injured so no it wasn’t a factor

I remember when Andrew bogut commented on the terrible job the referees were doing and everyone crucified him. Now you read any of these threads and people complaining about the quality of the officiating..... so strange....

Oh no doubt United gets some calls in Melbourne. Home cooking is a regular part of sport. As I said, it's driven by human psychology and there is no real solution for it.

I remember 2 seasons ago, United got questionable late calls in multiple games in quick succession. Another featured Webster and CG.

But, make no mistake, it's worse in Perth than anywhere else- that was illustrated by statistics covering a 5 year period that someone posted on this forum a while ago.

And, also refs in basketball arguably have more influence on the way the game is played than they do in other sports. Like say, AFL or NRL.

So, combine those two points 1. This is basketball and 2. It's particularly bad in Perth and you come to the conclusion that the Wildcats get more assistance than other professional sporting teams.

They also happen to be incredibly successful and well run, so this also means people dislike them (tall poppy syndrome). Combine that and the ref thing, and it's easy to understand why so many people hate them!

Don't follow either team and watched it on delay, great game till the refs ruined it, I love the nbl at present but I’ll walk away if these sort decisions keep getting made. The cameras were on Gleeson who I respect as a coach but he never stopped whining in the refs ear from about a foot away. The nbl have to stop this or it’s going nowhere. Those three refs should be stood down for a month. A charge at one end was a block at the other.

Not many comments on Kennedy's obvious foul on the White drive in the last minute of regulation, nor Barlow initiating contact on Cotton on the last play of regulation.

Norton's two charge calls were both blocks - unbelievable they could be called charges, especially by Allen - but I don't buy that Melbourne were robbed, Perth should have had the chance to put it away before overtime.

"United shot 42 3pt attempts, perth attacked the paint more"

Fair point J re the foul count, Melbourne were passing up driving opportunities to jack from outside, it was a clear strategy of theirs.

I think reffing being one sided is being a bit over blown, some shit calls both ways really, but far from being one sided. There isn't some "The refs love Perth" thing, NBL refs are just always pretty average lol. United didn't attack the ring much so there was always going to be a bit of a discrepancy in the foul count. Live they both looked like a charge to me, replay they look more 50/50 but I still think the charge was there.

Was great to see Norton step up in OT, felt like a bit of changing of the guard with him doing things that we would normally have to rely on Damo for. The Wildcats future at the PG position looks solid if Damo decides to retire this season.

Side note, the lack of replays at the stadium during the game was really annoying, felt like they didn't show a lot of replays today.

It just gets better and better. Not only an awesome win, but get to laugh at all the butt-hurt Melbourne fans.

No team in the history of NBL has been given more help by officials than Melbourne United.So much so that their fans have become delusional. You think every call should go your way, and when it doesn't you assume the refs must be wrong.

Maybe the home-cooking smorgasbord you get in Melbourne has made your players careless, because they they were sloppy today. I lost count of how many fouls Pledger and Boone got away with under the basket.

As for the charge call, that was completely, 100%, CONSISTENT with the calls they have been making this season.If you don't believe me, go back and review some games.

The rules changed some time back, the defending player is allowed to move."The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertically, move laterally or backwards in order to maintain the initial legal guarding position. "

Now I personally think they are giving charge calls a little too easily, but they have done that in very game.

Honest question, were the refs allowed to check the video on the Ware charge???

Fouls aren't reviewable, even if they occur in a situation that is reviewable (ie when reviewing an out-of-bounds call, if they see the ball went out of bounds due to a foul rather than a clean strip, they can't call the foul).

And for what its worth, I think Melbourne deserved to win (if there is such a thing) they played better all game, and Perth had no answer to CG. Had he not been injured, I doubt it would have even gone to OT.

But in a close game, things didn't fall your way, it's Basketball, get over it.

Fwiw I don't like the first call on Ware for the push off while he was dribbling. Norton was still moving and Ware didn't extend the arm at all. To me, reward the offensive player, give them the benefit in that situation

But I do think it's probably a fair call given how they interpret it these days. Hence I didn't complain on here in real time

The second one though, clearly incorrect. Norton was still moving sideways after Casper had moved into the shooting motion. Bad call, and it cost United the game- along with all the other soft fouls and 50/50 calls that went against them.

"The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertically, move laterally or backwards in order to maintain the initial legal guarding position. "

Norton didn't have an initial legal guarding position adjacent to Ware. I do agree though, that call is consistent with how charges have been called in the NBL forever and a day - defender falls backwards, call a charge.

Mal Cooper made some progress on that the first year he was in charge, as did Scott Butler early in his tenure, but it just keeps slipping back to the bad old ways. Maybe one reason for that is experienced refs like Aylen and Mayberry keep calling it that way?

Goulding and Ware went something like 8/27. It was an interesting strategy to try and bomb Perth out of their own home, not sure it's a great one. Maybe they think there's no point driving because you won't get calls!

The rules changed some time back, the defending player is allowed to move."The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertically, move laterally or backwards in order to maintain the initial legal guarding position. "

You have to have that initial legal guarding position though. Norton didn't. He was also moving into Ware.

Lets not ignore the 65 boards and 26 o boards compared to, 51 and 19, these extra possessions and o boards often result in fouls because the defence is out of position. Perth and united both got and didn't get some calls, but to say casper won it and it was all on the refs is a touch comical. Ref bash for sure, be a little one eyed, we all are, but acknowledge where your team also fell short. United chucked, and it didn't pay off. Kennedy, mccaron and barlow were deplorable from the field. Also United's bigs were very avg defending the pick and roll giving up multiple cheap fouls helping perth get to the bonus. Take solitude you were in the game when you were far from your best bit like perth in brisbane Thursday.

But- this is off the top of my head (and I didn't even see whole game- missed a few minutes late 1st qtr while I put my kid to bed for a nap. Haven't seen replay either)

Smith Milner on White, straight up at the hoop, Moller foul on Cotton driving n the lane, Hooley on Cotton shooting on the perimeter, CG in the post vs Brandt, Caspers 2nd charge with 1.4 sec left in OT, Barlow's 5th in the rebounding contest in 2nd OT (after he'd recently hit a pair of threes).

There's 6 very dodgy calls on United. Off the top of my head.

As has been discussed here, Caspers push off 28 sec left in OT was 50/50... went to Norton.

Brandt jumps out and screens Casper, 50/50...goes against Casper.

All these calls against United. Lots of bad ones, lots of 50/50 ones.

And Perth only got called for 12 fouls in 50 minutes of basketball.

Do you think, if the refs were consistent, and making those same calls on Perth, that perhaps Perth may have been called for more than 12 fouls in a full game and two OT's?

As I said though, human psychology is the issue. There's no grand conspiracy. It is what it is.

Just don't pretend the result of the game is fair and reasonable.

United should focus on themselves though and what they can be doing better- of course. No doubt.

LV, Perth missed out on two calls in the last minute of regulation that would have put them to the line. Kennedy's block on White was as obvious as it gets. Get those calls and OT doesn't happen.

Melbourne defended well but couldn't pull in enough boards, offensively there was too much one-on-one and too many long bombs. Yes, they will be right around the mix, but some of the same issues keep popping up at the moment that are costing them. They need to fix those, that's much more important than bad calls that go both ways.

LV how about when Moller had the offensive and Hire pulled him to the floor and got two free throws for being in the bonus, it was rubbish no matter what the Perth supporter say a I don't follow Melbourne, just want a fair and reasonable game.

Lv i thought you weren't doing the analyse every call in the game thing? Hooley went under the shooter, just like cotton went under ware on his pull up 2, so its a foul or it is not, im pretty happy with both calls. Frankly there is nothing to be gained with this all the missed fouls,discussion, but watch the nbl highlights and tell me barlow didn't move forwards into cotton with arms not straight up on the final play in regulation. See the rabbit hole we are diving into? Nothing to be gained here!!!! If united were the better team then 3 of their starters would have shot better than 30% and they may not have got smashed on the boards. Get over the calls, i mean united just won a game on a missed back court call!

No, that one wasn't a foul on Barlow. Leaned forward slightly but remained in the cylinder.

Anyway, it is what it is. Games like this do happen. The Boomers missed a Bronze medal due to reffing. This is just basketball.

I'm definitely more concerned with a bunch of issues- not least of all working out exactly how Kennedy fits into this group and what he brings to the table. He doesn't look like a guy with his reputation should....

Melbourne missing the "grown man" this season for sure. We are all a little one eyed when we watch a game. I was there live and I was thinking that Melbourne were getting all the 50/50 calls... which I am sure when I watch the replay it will be pretty even with a few dodgey calls either way.

Crowds definitely down. I suspect that where these games will hurt this season is the casual sales.The cats put advertising on the seats that are available for memberships, aimed at people that buy those tickets casually. Looking around even mid game, could still see a lot of those seats unoccupied.

I sit at the other end, so didn't see the "charge" or Gouldings injury. Problem is that whenever there is a close game, decided by a basket, or OT, its easy to point to the worst call and say "we was robbed". It happens

I saw, or thought I saw, some really bizarre calls and non-calls. At some point I have to trust that the Refs are closer, more familiar with the current interpretations, and (hopefully) have better eyesight.

I was disappointed that we basically allowed Goulding to tear us a new one. Surely when you have the best perimeter defender in the league, the solution should be obvious?

Not sure what's going on with Jervis? He seems to give away a few easy fouls early, and then loses his bottle and stops chasing the boards. I love the guy but he seems to be struggling.

Melbourne missing the "grown man" this season for sure. We are all a little one eyed when we watch a game. I was there live and I was thinking that Melbourne were getting all the 50/50 calls... which I am sure when I watch the replay it will be pretty even with a few dodgey calls either way.

"Norton did nothing wrong. If Aylen was watching Norton, he would have seen good foot work, legal defence and then impact."

If Aylen was watching Norton he would have seen he did not get legal defensive position in front of Ware before he elevated (and wasn't even close). Horror call from an experienced official and symptomatic of the charge/block issues we've long had in this country.

I think refs get off on the charge call, and by that I mean emphatically signalling by thrusting their fist in opposite direction to the play, particularly if the first thrust is going to get a positive reaction from the crowd.

"I think refs get off on the charge call, and by that I mean emphatically signalling by thrusting their fist in opposite direction to the play, particularly if the first thrust is going to get a positive reaction from the crowd."

Absolutely, refs like Aylen and Ray Chamberlain will always make the more attention-drawing call in a 50/50 situation.

"I think refs get off on the charge call, and by that I mean emphatically signalling by thrusting their fist in opposite direction to the play, particularly if the first thrust is going to get a positive reaction from the crowd."

But then there is the dramatic hip framing pelvic thrust of the block call.

Luuuc considering all the work the team had done to build the game night experience and integrate it with the city it is a kick in the teeth. Critisicm is important, businesses are not after just survival but long term growth and sustained success. I and im sure many of the thousands attending games enjoyed been able to grab a bite, drink etc before or after, the time makes that more Awkward, its fact, and people should be allowed to make they point without getting shut down and labelled as whingers Abbey bloody time.

Fri/Sat night games in Perth are brilliant, I agree, so the more of them the better. And these noon games are a pain, I agree with that too. There's no doubt it clashes with unchangeable family commitments, because it's 2 games my mate's family have been unable to attend, which at Captain's Club prices is probably $500+ worth of seating down the drain for them. There was no warning of that at membership renewal time.

Personally I think not being able to get a feed due to the 12:00 tip-off time is beyond precious, but you're welcome to your opinion.

I love it when people quote the foul count and claim they were robbed without assessing it in the context of how the teams played. There is no rule, written or unwritten, that an even amount of fouls for each team dictates a fairly refereed game. Muggish analysis.

Can't believe people are still prattling on about that.Charge vs Block has always been about the current interpretation, and that call is completely correct under the current interpretation.Sure it has changed, and changed radically compared to where it once was, but just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.

In my personal opinion I hated the way that players with the ball would not only make no attempt to avoid contact, but would deliberately instigate contact, and get easy fouls.

Put simply, Correct Defensive Position can be established instantaneously, not withstanding that the player is in effect moving. All you need is to face your opponent and have both feet touching the floor. Norton Clearly achieves that.The Onus is then on the ball carrier to get around his opponent, or more to the point, to get such an overlap that defensive position is lost and/or contact is not to the Torso. Ware did not do that. Norton went backwards and sideways and Ware hit him right in the chest.

Maybe they have gone too far the other way but that is the current interpretation and that is how they have been calling it. Even Homicide who hates the Wildcats agreed with the call.

Luuuc it may be a "precious" attitude but it's also a prevailing attitude of sports teams and local businesses trying to integrate the game experience with a night/day out and frankly its better for the local economy if it does. East vic parks strip of restaurants always have meal deals and transport for every optus stadium event. For some people when you're out you like to make a day of it, the time genuinely makes that difficult, its not an ideal situation and that should be acknowledged without people reverting to "make a sandwich" let's not take my original comment out of context.

Nothing wrong with making a day of it, J. I do that too. But IMO there are a heap of great eating options around Perth & Northbridge that are open before 11am on the weekend. But if you absolutely must have a chicken parmy or pork buns at 10:30am and anything else is a truly horrible proposition then that still feels kinda precious to me. I don't see why Perth Arena should benefit the local economy of pubs in the area but not cafes, for example.

J, you started this by saying that a lot of places only open at 11, which makes it tight to have a meal/drink then get seated in time for tip-off. I could list a dozen places within 5/10 minutes walk of the arena that could get you a decent feed and a few rounds and still have plenty of time to get to the game.

If that time is too tight for you, maybe have lunch after the game and make an arvo of it.

This is just like those "stadium food is shit" threads. No one is forcing you to eat at the arena, or only before the game, and if you cant work out other arrangements or solutions then perhaps you're not quite adult enough to leave the house.

"Correct Defensive Position can be established instantaneously, not withstanding that the player is in effect moving. All you need is to face your opponent and have both feet touching the floor."

You need to establish a legal defensive position adjacent to the offensive player before he leaves the ground. Watch the replay, Norton at no stage had his feet on the floor with legal adjacent position. He jumped sideways in front of Ware after he had left the ground.

Now if you want to quote Homicide Williams, he said "Let me take me that back, that's a block" after he watched the replay. Even by Australian standards, where charge/block has traditionally been called in favour of the defence, that was a block.

Clearly flogging a dead horse here. Now at no point did i say i don't have the capacity to feed myself and adjust to the time, i did, went to brunch for those playing at home. Will likely eat at home next week. There is a heap of new places around Yagan square that i would like to try, they aren't really an option at this game time, and for myself and i am sure others that don't frequent the city often, we are in the city for games and it does detract from the whole experience in my opinion. Can't understand why so many people can't acknowledge a simple fact without carrying on about all the less than desirable alternatives available, i guess none of you ever get disappointed and are always happy when you don't get your way. Good on you all!

And when does the referee in real time get to watch the play on a monitor from 5 different cameras in slow mo and get the opportunity to change their call? They don't. Homocides opinion on calls is like asking one of his other commentators for financial advise. Bottom line is It’s not a simple play. And for someone of your pedigree Paul to be throwing out comments such as it’s a horrendous call just makes you look like you have a grudge. It’s not until the baseline vision is shown that the call starts to be questioned. But you keep slinging from the cheap seats pony boy.

I'm not really of pedigree, but I have been fortunate to see a lot of high-level basketball around the world close up, and what is noticeable is the charge/block is called by the rules, putting onus on defenders to establish position.

This means players have to actually move their feet and hold their ground, or if beaten open their stance rather than lunging sideways in front of the ball carrier.

For whatever reason, in this country we just have never been able to call it like most of the rest of the basketball, instead regularly rewarding defenders who lunge backwards upon contact. Funnily enough, you don't see nearly as much of that in other comps around the world because you don't get the call.

Vaughan Mayberry's call today on Johnson when Wesley simply took a dive highlights the issue we have. Our experienced refs were developed with an incorrect approach to charge/block, now they're passing that onto the young refs coming through.

Overall the way games are being called at the moment is allowing for attractive basketball, but the charge/block and blocked shot situations are significant areas of weakness and have been for a long time.

"And when does the referee in real time get to watch the play on a monitor from 5 different cameras in slow mo and get the opportunity to change their call? They don't. Homocides opinion on calls is like asking one of his other commentators for financial advise. Bottom line is It's not a simple play. And for someone of your pedigree Paul to be throwing out comments such as it’s a horrendous call just makes you look like you have a grudge. It’s not until the baseline vision is shown that the call starts to be questioned. But you keep slinging from the cheap seats pony boy."

I don't think the NBL favours Perth, or any team really. Overall NBL refs are just quite inconsistent in the way games are called which makes it seem certain teams are favored more in some games.

Home cooking is probably something that happens to some degree. I'd imagine a home crowd of 13,000 in Perth would have a bit more influence over the refs in a 50/50 call compared to say 3000 in Illawara.

Perth are also on the end of some really bad/missed calls, even at home, but just because so many opposition fans are too one eyed and despise Perth they don't seem to admit to it. There's been games were people complain about Perth 'getting favored' all game despite Perth getting a bunch of wrong calls against them.

Overall I think the refs are just inconsistent in the way all games are called, and fan bias leads people to focus on some teams calls more than others.

"I copped an elbow and when I wiped my mouth, there was a bit of my tooth there. It was in pieces," Norton said.“Once I got it all out of there and the blood was gone, I was able to focus back on the game.“It's chipped downwards which is strange but it’s a small price to pay to get the win.

Firstly, not sure why Wildcats' fans would be upset by this? We WON the game. It will be the Melbourne fans like LV suffering brain explosions.

It's interesting that they have chosen to focus on these charge calls, does that signal a change? My point (way) above was that this was consistent with what they have been calling, they have been throwing out charge calls like confetti this season.

My only other comment was directed at the constant "he was moving, he was moving" complaints. Which, even according to the review, isn't the issue.

And for all that, it IS still just one call. Had either team got another call their way, the game wouldn't have gone into overtime.

"And for all that, it IS still just one call. Had either team got another call their way, the game wouldn't have gone into overtime"

Yeah the only thing I don't like about these review articles is they focus on just a handful of calls over the entire round. It's good to see the NBL owning up to mistakes and (I'm assuming) looking to improve the standard of reffing. But the fact is there are a huge number of incorrect calls/non calls that impact games which the article doesn't touch on.

The review just confirms what absolutely anybody with the faintest clue about basketball already knew- the replays unequivocally confirmed that it should've been a blocking foul

But, to be fair, these things are much harder to judge in real time. The NBL review clearly explained all the factors- and yes, I admit it's not easy to get the perfect view and then weigh all of those factors in a split second.

But if you watch the replay, no one noticed. Not Joey Wright, not the commentators, and not the Adelaide players. Daniel Johnson half heartedly pointed at Ware- but didn't then say anything to the refs

We'd all have to agree on 4 things

1. The missed call was wrong

2. This is one of the most bizarre events On a basketball court. Wrong missed call at the death but no one realised

3. Unlikely Adelaide would've scored a 3 with 4 seconds to go- if they'd got the ball like they should've. Possible, but maybe a 20% chance at best. Then OT even if they hit. So Adelaide would've had at most a 10% chance of winning if the correct call was made.

4. Not really comparable to Casper in Perth where, if the correct call had been made, all other things being equal, there would be a 90% chance United wins (Conservatively). With Casper on the line with 1.4secs left and shooting one FT for a 3 point lead. Perth could've had the ball in the back court, 2 down, 1.4 secs left. Or if they had a time out remaining, would've been 3 down with an inbounds in their own half with 1.4 secs left.

But you notice now LV, and you're trying to downplay because it was your team that got the rub, unlike last Saturday where you have invented a scenario where 2 points is worth more to Ware because he sat down at the start of the second half two nights later.

By comparable I mean you can compare them because they were both bad calls. The thing that's not comparable is the call in Melbourne's favour was more obviously incorrect and guaranteed Melbourne a win. The call against Melbourne still left them with a 50:50 chance to win.

Why are we discussing what was likely/unlikely to happen? Th fact is, another terrible call was made on Melbourne's home court, one of severable memorable and horrible calls in the past few seasons, it gifted Melbourne the game AGAIN, but LV is whinging about something not going his way on a very tough call to make.

Human error has been a part of sports since humans were involved. Suck it up. I like the nbl's initiative in explaining these calls and hopefully behind the scenes they are also trying to improve referee standards.

"But, to be fair, these things are much harder to judge in real time. The NBL review clearly explained all the factors- and yes, I admit it's not easy to get the perfect view and then weigh all of those factors in a split second."

Wow, that's about the most sensible thing anyone has written in this thread.

It was a somewhat weird scenario, in that you needed to see the baseline ("lateral"?) view to see that it was wrong. Norton did establish a defensive position, but he wasn't facing Ware, so not in fact a Defensive Position, prior to him moving.