there are so many facets to mankind's behavior the psychiatric field seems reluctant to classify. personality disorders is painfully obvious and overdue for recognition. most people are very complex multi layered little buffets of varied input/output. i hope mankind lives the modern life long enough to really sort things out.

as for folks that have to jump on the medication hatred bandwagon. first, you don't have to take it. second, many people who need medication are instead chasing their demons with alcohol and street drugs and doing themselves absolutely no good. third, if you yourself found relief or had someone in your life that was helped by mental health related medication you would know first hand it works and its not just sold for fun and profit.

FarkinHostile:kokomo61: ....and I know what it's like to be married to someone with BPD. It IS an excuse.Bingo./Divorced her when she refused to go to counseling

I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't. Their brains don't work right. You can't just say, "well, they don't want to take responsibility for their actions." They don't know how--they don't even know what it means, or how you'd go about doing something like that.

And therapy, unless they're a very mild case, doesn't work. (And even if they are capable of change, it takes years and years of very hard work, something that people with PDs don't like, because, of course--none of it is their fault!) Skip the therapy and just dump them.

Hell, my shrink told me not only that he couldn't work with my ex, he said that he couldn't even tell him that he had a mental disorder--it would cause a psychotic break and put us in more danger. Because they really do not know that there's anything wrong with them. It would be like me coming up to you and saying, "Hey guys, guess what--you have a serious mental disorder, and all those bad things that keep happening to you? You did it all. Everyone hates you, and they have good reasons for it."

So fine if you booted these people from your life, but it's a little more complicated than they just don't want to take responsibility for themselves.

I had signs of it since early childhood, but people thought i was just shy. Well, i was, but the problem was/is much more complicated than that. Only realized i had it a few years ago.

Makes social interactions almost impossible to create, all the while i can deal with people formally without much trouble. It's one of those issues that's almost impossible to notice unless you know me. And it's hard to get to know me because, well, i avoid people beyond the strictly utilitarian.

I always feel like people are judging me constantly, like a thousand eyes watching me, and i can't ignore or let go. Because those eyes include mine. It's terrible and makes me paranoid. Completely unable to deal with social pressure. I'm always in a state of super-inhibition. I can't "just do it", break off the mold, etc. i have mental blocks, i panic, etc.

QueenMamaBee:I work with someone I swear has histronic personality disorder. She took two days off because she had to have her dog put down and actually told me that her dogs are just like kids.... that it's like a child dying. First time in my life I was speechless.

I'm kinda disturbed when people *aren't* upset when their pets die. Makes me wonder if they'd kill me/husband/wife/random neighbor with that "had to be done" attitude.

Rindred:Felgraf: FarkinHostile: The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

Hooray meta-cognition!

/Though I'm not sure all people are capable of 'thinking about thinking'. Or, at least, it probably has to be taught...

A psych will tell you that if you're capable of honestly questioning your own sanity, you're probably sane; a crazy person cannot, and will adamantly refuse to believe or acknowledge that they have a problem.

Psychiatrists don't really label people as "sane" or "crazy". What you're referring to is referred to in psychiatry as "insight". Some people can be quite mentally ill but be aware they're not thinking right. You're on the right track though, as a patient having good insight is a favorable prognostic indicator. It's difficult to treat someone who doesnt think they have a problem.

FarkinHostile:cryinoutloud: I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. When things were good, they were great, so she knew her actions had significance and when it suited her, she was wonderful. After I left her, she acknowledged her "problems" as she tried to get me to take her back, while doing all of the things that made me leave her.

She knew. She controlled it when it suited her.

In all honesty, I could have been diagnosed with a personality disorder when I was a teen/young man. I'm not the most "sane" fellow, and I struggle with my issues every day. The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

While I am in no place to opine on your relationship, realize BPD'ers are manipulative on a level most normal individuals could only dream of aspiring to.

Personality disorders persist in the population because when deployed properly, they can be wildly successful individuals (the hammer in the room full of nails, so to speak). Human history has turned on such individuals. I'm sure many historical figures had personality disorders and were at the right place at the right time.

kokomo61:I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!

im very thankful when the chart is flagged with BPD. It lets me know in advance what I'm dealing with. One of these characters can tear apart a ward and drain countless productivity hours if you leave them unchecked.

Bender The Offender:kokomo61: I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!

I've always said BPD is psychiatry's way of calling you an asshole.

I dont think you guys know what BPD is or maybe you just dont know any BPD people. Im pretty sure you cant rely on a BPD person to dilligently take responsibility for their own drama and problems whether they've been given a diagnosis or not.

I think BPD ppl are scary to get into relationships with, but i wouldnt call them all assholes. Some are, but you dont need a mental illness to be an asshole. People with personality disorders are likely just fractured people who quite probably will never find cures for their problems. Be thankful you dont have such a disorder (if you dont).

doczoidberg:More disorders = more reasons to prescribe people expensive medications.

It all makes sense if you think of Freud, Jung et al as fraudulent prophets, therapists as dubious pastors, disorders as sin and therapy as the purchase of indulgence. Forget scientology; psychotherapy is the twentieth century's quack religion.

Rindred: "A psych will tell you that if you're capable of honestly questioning your own sanity, you're probably sane"

Seems like that old chestnut only applies to psychotics.I mean, how else would a sociopath develop a workable facsimile of "normal", than by seriously questioning the difference between themselves and "normal"?

Or does that disqualify as "honestly", because we're defining "honestly" tautologically to exclude said sociopaths?

FarkinHostile:Doom MD: While I am in no place to opine on your relationship, realize BPD'ers are manipulative on a level most normal individuals could only dream of aspiring to.

Oh, I'm quite aware of that, but my point is BPD'ers can manipulate themselves out of the disorder if they so choose. I really am sick of the whole "They can't help it" manta. If I can help it, so can they.

There is little harm in this belief, and much potential for good. My self metaprogramming has greatly improved my life and relationships, at the expense of being accepting of assholes and liars.

It's interesting to me how people can look at the same set of information and come to very different conclusions. One can say they "can't help it" and hence should be met with sympathy. One could just as easily say "you're inherently broken and beyond salvation" and cast them out. Sure, it's your fault if you hang out with a tiger and it bites you. So, this begs the question, why hang out with a tiger? Nonetheless, I don't give personality disorders a free pass for their actions, I just try to maneuver situations to where their impulses will be as much of a nonissue as possible.

Bad_Seed:Get a bunch of "symptoms" (i.e. pattens of thought and behaviour) that you decide are "bad" and label them a "disorder". That's how it works. Teh Gay used to be a disorder until the gays got it redefined as a lifestyle choice.

Personality disorders are quite real and not just made up. Homosexuality used to be classified as a mental illness. The APA removed this classification in 1972, but the debate was heated. Even today, while homosexuality is not considered a mental illness, many mental health practitioners still consider exclusive homosexuality to be a psychosexual maladjustment, but one that is laid down so early in life that it is unchangeable. This point of view is controversial, of course.

Doom MD:FarkinHostile: cryinoutloud: I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. When things were good, they were great, so she knew her actions had significance and when it suited her, she was wonderful. After I left her, she acknowledged her "problems" as she tried to get me to take her back, while doing all of the things that made me leave her.

She knew. She controlled it when it suited her.

In all honesty, I could have been diagnosed with a personality disorder when I was a teen/young man. I'm not the most "sane" fellow, and I struggle with my issues every day. The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

While I am in no place to opine on your relationship, realize BPD'ers are manipulative on a level most normal individuals could only dream of aspiring to.

Personality disorders persist in the population because when deployed properly, they can be wildly successful individuals (the hammer in the room full of nails, so to speak). Human history has turned on such individuals. I'm sure many historical figures had personality disorders and were at the right place at the right time.

A mild case of schizoid that makes a person somewhat immune to criticism and personal considerations can be handy for getting things done.

Felgraf:FarkinHostile: The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

Hooray meta-cognition!

/Though I'm not sure all people are capable of 'thinking about thinking'. Or, at least, it probably has to be taught...

A psych will tell you that if you're capable of honestly questioning your own sanity, you're probably sane; a crazy person cannot, and will adamantly refuse to believe or acknowledge that they have a problem.

The APA should build a list of the abnormal behavioral traits "manipulative," "histrionic," etc to cover the full range of distinct qualities that need to be considered. Then, formulate the battery of exams to rate each trait on a scale of "not a problem" to "severely disabled" that can be plotted numerically. Finally, doctors can have their beloved categories by saying "anyone who rates a score of #.# or greater in trait2 and #.# in trait7 is suffering from MentalProblemQ." A system like this could show the plot points and suggest things like "this patient may also show MentalProblemZ because of high trait5, which might merit the creation of a new categorical illness and TreatmentType2 in addition to their existing medicine1." Everybody wins.

cryinoutloud:I have no problem with you guys divorcing your loony ex (I divorced mine too) but it's not just an "excuse." It's how they think, it's how their brains are wired. When they appear to have no idea how they have hurt or offended you, they really don't.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. When things were good, they were great, so she knew her actions had significance and when it suited her, she was wonderful. After I left her, she acknowledged her "problems" as she tried to get me to take her back, while doing all of the things that made me leave her.

She knew. She controlled it when it suited her.

In all honesty, I could have been diagnosed with a personality disorder when I was a teen/young man. I'm not the most "sane" fellow, and I struggle with my issues every day. The difference is I try. You can program your programming if you really want to and work on it.

kokomo61:I think my sister had it nailed when she said 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is just an excuse for bad behavior.

If you can blame it on a 'disorder', then TaDa! No personal responsibility!

Check out the Wiki page on BPD. So help be $DEITY, it's almost word for word my ex-GF as far as actions and history; Childhood environment, alcohol abuse, eating disorder, impulsiveness, staggeringly concerned with how people treated her and making sure everyone took her "into consideration" on every little issue, etc. I mean down to nearly the last it describes her.