I thought it might be a good idea to finally start a thread dedicated the reigning woman in pop music today (which feels weird to say because I'm the exact same age as her--actually, I'm only 9-10 months older than her! Another 1989 girl.), and evolution from her very country self-titled debut album in 2006 to her first official pop album last year. Do you love her? Hate her? Have mixed feelings about her like I do? Be Fearless as you Speak Now about the girl in Red lipstick who was born in 1989! ;)

*Yes, I just incorporated the names of her last four albums in a sentence. And it worked! :P

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Be Fearless as you Speak Now about the girl in Red lipstick who was born in 1989! ;)

*Yes, I just incorporated the names of her last four albums in a sentence. And it worked! :P

That is pretty good!

I dislike her as a person, extremely, because her entire ouevre consists of complaining about how people are being mean to her

Yeah I'm on board with this. I didn't mind her too much when she first started out in the realm of country music, of which I listen to only very slightly. The one song I did like from her and still do till this day is 'You're Not Sorry' off the Fearless album. But pretty much I think once she started amassing the rabid fan-base that she eventually realized she had quite a lot of control and influence over, and her songs started gearing towards playing the victim role (i.e. all the boys she dated are ALL jerks of some kind, people hate her even though she's just so sweet and a normal teen/adolescent), it got a bit old.

That said, you gotta give her props for knowing how to milk a changing culture. From targeting all the love scorned girls out there with her relateable break up songs, to actually dating all these up-and-coming and established IT guys and then breaking up with them. Then moving on to creating her super squad of well-known but slightly less famous female celebrities, and then roping in the big guns like JT, Beyonce, etc, well you can't say she (or her media/publicist team) doesn't know how to craft an image.

Again, props to her and all that. But I still change the channel if a T-Swaggityswag song comes on.

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I think she needs AutoTune to help her performances; especially live. Whenever I've seen her sing live on TV, like on the Dick Clark/Ryan Seacrest New Year's Eve special, I've been BEYOND underwhelmed by her alleged "superstar talent".

I also don't like when she pulls a stinkeye upon losing any award she's up for, like she's entitled to win them all just because she's nominated in the damn category. Entitled, much?

And I'm sorry, but I think that whole Apple Music thing recently was as much/more about HER not getting paid as/than it was about "the little people" artists she was claiming to speak up for not getting paid. It seems to me, if you wanna use Little Miss HIGHLY Overrated's music, you have to play by HER rules or you can take a hike as far as she's concerned.

It also hacks me off that a former backup singer for my favorite singer now works for Little Miss HIGHLY Overrated, instead of staying with my favorite singer who is a much classier act than her, & who already has more longevity in the industry than Little Miss HIGHLY Overrated will EVER have; especially if she continues to write juvenile songs like Shake It Off & We Are Never, Ever, Ever Getting Back Together. If the backup singer in question had stayed with her previous employer, I think she'd have more longterm job security than she will with Little Miss HIGHLY Overrated.

I also think, for a freaking adult, she could write songs with much more intelligent lyrics than, among others, "shake it off". Every song I've ever heard by her is so juvenile, to me. Little Miss HIGHLY Overrated writes songs like she's mentally stuck in Junior High (& I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she is).

And EVERY damn thing Little Miss HIGHLY Overrated does is calculated to get herself more publicity, & does, even though she already has WAY MORE than her share.

She (& the KarTRASHians, another pop culture phenomenon I see no point/have no use for) needs her "15 minutes" to be over *yesterday*, if not sooner!

Edited July 14, 2015 by BW Manilowe.

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It always boggles my mind that she and Adele are the same age. Taylor just always seems so immature, especially when compared to Adele.

I can't deny her songs are catchy, but her persona kinda blows. I will never forget her snit about how Tina Fey & Amy Poehler "don't help women" and how there's a "special place in hell for women like that". They made a relatively benign joke about a persona you created for yourself, so get over it.And, quite frankly, the slut shaming on her song "Better Than Revenge" was gross. I mentioned it in a different thread, but for someone who is all "girl power!" now, the Bad Blood video reeks of "haha Katy Perry! I have more famous friends than you, and they're all on my side!!"

And don't even get me started on her "walking out of the gym" clothes, and using her cats as accessories.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Princess Sparkle.

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I have mixed feelings about her, mostly on the negative range. Whenever I read her interviews, she spends a lot of time complaining about her negative press. I wish I could feel sorry for her except that by writing songs about her personal life, she will get criticized for it just like most artists. She also nurtures the media in the same way and encourages the look into her life. Namely, with her style and her celebrity friends. I'm not crazy about her style red carpet or street style. I don't care for her music; I actually would mind it less if it wasn't obvious that she's a mediocre singer at best. I also agree that the Apple thing was more about her than other artists, but she is smart about her money.

She has been clever enough to change her music and look over the years. She's eased up on the parade of boyfriends as well. I do like that she seems to love her fans and has done many lovely things for them. She knows where her bread is buttered, but I feel like more celebrities and musical artists could reach out like she has.

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There's honestly a lot that I could say about her, both the things I like and don't like about her, but the first thing I'll talk about is this:

A lot of her album tracks are better than her big singles. I do think there are quite a few of her singles that are actually really good (I agree Rick Kitchen, "Style" is awesome--so of course it's the ONE single from 1989 NOT to go to number one!), but if you look past those and listen to some of her songs that aren't released as singles--you'll find songs that are better than you'd think given some of the parts of her image. The one I wanted to highlight here is a song from the album Red called "The Lucky One." It is about her fears about becoming famous, but I think it is also about the three women highlighted in the book Girls Like Us: Carole King, Carly Simon, and especially Joni Mitchell. There were talks of a movie based on this book a few years back, and Taylor was being considered for the role of Joni, but Mitchell herself was the one put the project to a halt, because she felt the book was more about rumors on certain romantic relationships than the arc of their music careers. Either way, it's a great song:

I definitely think that she has purposely included big poppy sounding singles (more on Red and 1989 than her first three albums) to try to reach the general public and guarantee she'll have a hit, which has absolutely succeeded, but I wish she would release more songs like this (or the song "Clean" from 1989) which would give her more respect and give her a better shot at being taken seriously. She's certainly had more than enough success by this point in time where if, once the 1989 World Tour is over and she's working on her next album, she could afford to do that for the rest of her career. I think it would benefit her much more in the long run.

Of course, part of me is also wondering if a long break from her career is on the way after this tour, too. She released her first album when she was 16 years old. She's certainly earned the right for some time off.

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She's not fooling me with her girl mafia. In fact, I wish she would shutup about women's issues in general. She's hardly someone who should be claiming girl power considering she's built her career on playing the victim. Not exactly someone young girls should be idolizing.

If I hear or see one more article about how she rules the world after she's pulled a cleverly crafted PR stunt, I will scream. (The $50k to a cancer victim being her latest diatribe. Why not just give the money? Why all the publicity about it?)

The ONLY thing I will give her props for is how she treats her fans. That's it. The quicker the masses turn against her, the better.

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I really like Taylor's latest album but I do see her as a very calculating woman. Her horde of brainwashed fangirls are going to be her downfall more than likely. She has made herself way too accessible to fans and that may blow up in her face.

Edited July 14, 2015 by funkopop.

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She has made herself way too accessible to fans and that may blow up in her face.

This may be true, but for now, I do like some of the things she does for her fans and for charity. As for her music, some of her songs are ok. I find them catchy. When she first came on the scene, I was impressed with some of her writing (I thought Tim McGraw and Our Song were sweet).

I guess it's a good thing that I don't watch reward shows or read/watch interviews.

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Wait, what?! This is news to me! Holy crap! I mean I know they're both singers of different genres of music and it's a personal preference but I'll definitely listen to an Adele song any day. When she (Adele) sings about heartbreak, it just sounds so poetic and taking the high road as opposed to being whiny and all "take that Harry Styles/John Mayer/Gyllenhaal/etc in-your-face!!!"

She's not fooling me with her girl mafia. In fact, I wish she would shutup about women's issues in general. She's hardly someone who should be claiming girl power considering she's built her career on playing the victim. Not exactly someone young girls should be idolizing.

If I hear or see one more article about how she rules the world after she's pulled a cleverly crafted PR stunt, I will scream. (The $50k to a cancer victim being her latest diatribe. Why not just give the money? Why all the publicity about it?)

This. There's a whole lot of less widely publicized cases of celebs helping out and giving back but of course we all had to hear about Taylor Swift donating $50k to one person.

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Wait, what?! This is news to me! Holy crap! I mean I know they're both singers of different genres of music and it's a personal preference but I'll definitely listen to an Adele song any day. When she (Adele) sings about heartbreak, it just sounds so poetic and taking the high road as opposed to being whiny and all "take that Harry Styles/John Mayer/Gyllenhaal/etc in-your-face!!!"

Which is why when she pulls out that "media picks on me for having songs about boyfriends because SEXISM" card I roll my eyes. Adele has sold 50 billion records with her album of sad breakup songs, and the media for the most part doesn't say anything about it. Taylor's preteen antics was what made her a bit of a laughingstock. I do think she has matured a little and even if the girl mafia is just another persona she is putting on to sell records I would take that a million times over than her revolving door of Starbucks lovers.

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Well, not quite. Adele was born May 5th, 1988, Taylor was born December 13th, 1989. So it's actually closer to two years apart, but it's not that much.

I pretty think that within two years is pretty much the same general age.

I do think her transition from teen country star to pop princess has been really impressive. Not really a single misstep I can think of, as opposed to other teen stars transitioning into their 20's. The last time a teen transition has been this successful was Beyonce's like 12-13 years ago when she went from teen girl group star to massive solo star.

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She really is...kind of obtuse, isn't she? I mean, Nicki Minaj freaking out over a VMA is dumb, and she clearly was talking about Taylor Swift's (extremely) lame video. But Taylor, you don't have to answer. And you can clearly tell by the second & third tweets that Nicki is talking more generally, so Taylor, inviting her up on stage with you isn't going to fix why she's mad. I also find it hilarious that she talks about pitting women against each other when that's the exact point of the Bad Blood song & video.

And the thing is, I don't think she was trying to be condescending to Nicki there, but um...that's sure what ended up happening anyway.

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Shirley Manson of the band Garbage addressed this issue on her Facebook page. Standing ovation. She's absolutely right.

Sorry about the lack of double spacing. It was a bitch trying to copy and paste this. She's still right, though.

In light of the ridiculous brouhaha surrounding the VMA's and in the interests of our collective suffering, let's just decide to give each and every citizen of the world a VMA.Alternatively, we could save ourselves a lot of trouble and grief if we just allow the biggest, most popular stars to decide what awards they do or do not want and leave it at that.When did brilliant, accomplished, wealthy and truly blessed individuals start behaving like spoilt kids who didn't win first prize at an egg and spoon race?In music there has never been nor will there ever be, any such thing as "best".Award shows were invented to make money. They don't actually mean much.Yeah it's nice to get one. But it means jack shit if you don't.

Edited July 22, 2015 by UYI.

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Me too. And the thing is, I don't think she was trying to be condescending to Nicki there, but um...that's sure what ended up happening anyway.

I think Swift seems to be well intentioned, but she often comes off as condescending and patronizing in her public interactions. She's been famous and at the top for a long time now so it makes her live in this bubble even from other celebrities. I hope she grows out of this, but she's become even more rich and famous that it slows any development of self-awareness.

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I agree. I think, overall, that she actually is a very nice person with a good heart, and in some ways she reminds me of myself (we both grew up being picked on in school for having different interests, for example), which is kind of funny to me because we were born the exact same year (I still have to control being jealous of her looks, though, even though I know I look perfectly fine myself, LOL--just ONE DAY of being tall and long-legged would be nice! :P). But yes, I think some of her good intentions, like here with Nicki, wind up coming off like her implying that she's better than other people, even though I know how good she is to her fans, that she constantly visits sick kids in the hospital, and I've seen her talk about up-and-coming artists in interviews and on social media (which does make me believe at least part of her crusade against Apple about streaming music came from an honest place--not all of it, but some of it).

And I absolutely believe that she has a vindictive streak inside of her. She seems like a person where, if I were her friend (stay with me here, haha) and something bad happened, I would want to hold her back and say, "No, stop it. You're better than this." The one thing that drives me crazy when people say, "Oh but men write angry break up songs all the time" is that, well, yes they do, but do they put secret messages in the lyrics that all but spell out who the song is about, especially if it's about a famous person? Not that I know of. I'll admit that I find it an interesting thing about her, and she has said that it's a way to get closer to her fans, but I'm not delusional enough to think it isn't some sort of passive aggressive diss at certain people, either.

So...yeah. Like I've said before, I actually have a lot of things (and songs) I like about her, and a lot of things (and again, songs) that I don't like about her. Maybe my problem is that I need to pick a side already and stick to it. ;)

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Shirley Manson of the band Garbage addressed this issue on her Facebook page. Standing ovation. She's absolutely right.

Sorry about the lack of double spacing. It was a bitch trying to copy and paste this. She's still right, though.

And this is why Shirley Manson is a QUEEN! I love her. I miss my badass women singers from the 90s. Because, compare the awesome breakup song of "You Oughta Know!" to any of Taylor Swift's, and Taylor doesn't even hold a candle.

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And this is why Shirley Manson is a QUEEN! I love her. I miss my badass women singers from the 90s. Because, compare the awesome breakup song of "You Oughta Know!" to any of Taylor Swift's, and Taylor doesn't even hold a candle.

You know, I've thought before about how it would have been nice to have someone like Taylor to listen to when I was in middle school/high school (in all, that was from 2000-2007, for the record), because the women who were big when I was growing up were women like Britney Spears, who weren't making music about relating to young teenage girls, and that's one thing the girls just below me in age have that I didn't: a young woman writing songs about what it's like to be an every day teenage girl. But then I remember that even at 12 or 13, I still found female song songwriters I loved to listen to like Sheryl Crow, Alanis Morissette, Sarah McLachlan and Jewel. Hell, throw Gwen Stefani's stuff with No Doubt in there, too. So while it would have been nice to have a young female pop star like Taylor during my formative years (her first album came out when I was a senior in high school) and I do like several of her songs, I still did just fine for myself. :)

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I think I am just about the photo negative of a typical Taylor Swift fan. But I like her music (disclaimer: I only have her actual albums because they were loaded on an iPod I bought second hand) and, since I'll never see her perform in concert, I don't care if she's autotuned. All I know is that the first song of hers that I heard, "Fifteen," gave me goosebumps with its maturity. I don't follow her on social media, so I have no idea whom she's dated or written songs about or whatever. From the stuff that pops up on my Facebook feed (TIME is obsessed with her), she seems like a generous, kind person. And she looks good in a crop top. I just think its silly to whip up a tempest in a teapot and then complain about the storm.

As to Nicki Minaj, she has a bit of an ego-centric vindictive streak (I remember her canceling a headliner concert because a DJ made a crack about one of her songs), so she's not exactly one to let it go, either.

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I do wonder if the age we are in now with twitter and about 50 bazillion celebrity websites kind of sets us up for this. There was a bit more mystery in celebrity before and now we see every instance of pettiness and unlikeability. But we still hold celebrities on a pedestal, so when they do make mistakes, like Taylor has, they have a harder fall. I am not really defending her, because her lack of awareness with the Apple/Spotify issue and with tweeting Nicki has been astounding. It is just kind of a weird culture we have now.

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I'm not a fan of either Taylor or Minaj (personalities and music) but I found Swift's, "I'll invite you up on stage if I win..." to be totally uncalled for. It just smacks of her trying to rub it in some more (whether intentional or not), knowing that the lack of VMA nom for whichever category does irk Minaj. To her loyal Swiftalites, Taylor was totally being the bigger person blah blah but to me she just comes across as haughty and condescending.

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I do wonder if the age we are in now with twitter and about 50 bazillion celebrity websites kind of sets us up for this. There was a bit more mystery in celebrity before and now we see every instance of pettiness and unlikeability. But we still hold celebrities on a pedestal, so when they do make mistakes, like Taylor has, they have a harder fall. I am not really defending her, because her lack of awareness with the Apple/Spotify issue and with tweeting Nicki has been astounding. It is just kind of a weird culture we have now.

Social media definitely has changed how we view celebrities and how we react to them. Some celebrities exists and artists gain prominence because social media has made them mainstream. While Swift had a more typical musician's start, she really has nurtured her fame not just with her musical abilities but with how she presents herself in social and mainstream media. She is very accessible and interactive with her fans. I think she is mostly sincere that she loves her fans, but social media has helped put her where she is. If she were a normal girl of her generation, she probably would be using Twitter and Instgramming so it's not even difficult. However, like most celebrities, Swift has a media/PR team that help her with this. She's been very savvy. She'll be able to spin this Minaj thing easily.

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You know, I've thought before about how it would have been nice to have someone like Taylor to listen to when I was in middle school/high school (in all, that was from 2000-2007, for the record), because the women who were big when I was growing up were women like Britney Spears, who weren't making music about relating to young teenage girls, and that's one thing the girls just below me in age have that I didn't: a young woman writing songs about what it's like to be an every day teenage girl. But then I remember that even at 12 or 13, I still found female song songwriters I loved to listen to like Sheryl Crow, Alanis Morissette, Sarah McLachlan and Jewel. Hell, throw Gwen Stefani's stuff with No Doubt in there, too. So while it would have been nice to have a young female pop star like Taylor during my formative years (her first album came out when I was a senior in high school) and I do like several of her songs, I still did just fine for myself. :)

I'll take Britney Spears over Taylor Swift any day and twice on Sundays.

I don't agree that Taylor Swift is relating to young teenage girls unless young teenage girls are supposed to be constantly bitching and moaning about how so and so was mean to them. Britney Spears may have been singing about sex and partying but at least she wasn't releasing her attack dogs on unsuspecting people who she felt denigrated her in some way. I mean damn, the girl even has a song called Mean. Really?

The fact that Shirley Manson came in to shut them both down makes me laugh. Taylor is all about her awards and accolades and Shirley Manson just basically told her none of it means shit. Sit down little girl.

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It is not a perfect apology, but hey, at least she is not acting like the victim like I was convinced she would. And she is taking a step back. Progress.

Maybe she will learn from this and be a bit more chill when it comes to this kind of stuff. Or maybe even learn to laugh at herself. I want to root for her, since I do think songs like Style and Blank Space show song writing talent.

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I don't know if this will ring any bells for anyone but Camilla Belle, who is an actress that starred in Push, 10,000 BC and is rumoured to be the actress Taylor referenced years back in a song about being known more for what she does on a mattress jumped into the fray. Camilla started dating Joe Jonas shortly after he and Taylor broke up maybe there was some cheating involved but Taylor supposedly wrote that lyric about her. I believe she has since apologized about it but Camilla has remained silent regarding the whole thing and has just now "spoken out" by retweeting Katy Perry recent post throwing shots at Taylor for her Bad Blood song.

Edited July 23, 2015 by funkopop.

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I don't know if this will ring any bells for anyone but Camilla Belle, who is an actress that starred in Push, 10,000 BC and is rumoured to be the actress Taylor referenced years back in a song about being known more for what she does on a mattress jumped into the fray. Camilla started dating Joe Jonas shortly after he and Taylor broke up maybe there was some cheating involved but Taylor supposedly wrote that lyric about her. I believe she has since apologized about it but Camilla has remained silent regarding the whole thing and has just now "spoken out" by retweeting Katy Perry recent post throwing shots at Taylor for her Bad Blood song.

I remember this. And if I was Camilla Bell I wouldn't forgive her either even if she sent an apology. She basically slut shamed her. And that's on a damn CD that will live forever.

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I have a love/hate thing with Taylor Swift. I've actually been aware of her and listening to her music since her first single, Tim Mcgraw. While she is an extremely mediocre vocalist in my opinion, I do think she is a talented songwriter and producer - the girl knows how to write a catchy hook. And I absolutely respect her command of her career - she's no label puppet. In fact, she owns a percentage of her label. She writes her own stuff, produces, etc. and all before the age of 30. Again, I give her mad props for that.

That being said, I think there is strong sense of entitlement in her which contributes to her constant victim role. Taylor is never wrong, someone is always picking on and being mean to poor, sweet Taylor, every relationship she has had, the guy was the awful one. And if you don't like something about her, no matter how intelligently and unbiased that's expressed, it's because you are a big meanie. I also find her incredibly passive aggressive with the not so subtle shade in her songs about people, all while she'll claim she'll not say their name but she makes it so damn obvious who it is about, that she might as well say their name.

I thought her nonsense about "there is a special place in hell for women who don't support women" in response to Tina Fey and Amy Poehler's Golden Globe joke was ridiculous. First of all, Fey and Poehler ragged on almost all the stars in the room that night - men and women, so Taylor wasn't some special snowflake being attacked. And yes, they made their joke about her, about her relationships but Taylor is hypocritical to pretend that she has not contributed to this by making her career essentially about her relationships and calling out guys who've supposedly done her wrong. She's been proud to say this in the past - how if a guy doesn't want her to write bad things about him, "don't do bad things." And how once she dates someone, she'll write about them. She's said this.

So her pissiness because Fey and Poehler called her out as they did all other celebs just further supported this opinion I have of her being incredibly entitled. Special snowflake Taylor should not be made fun of ever. And that same attitude is what caused this little snafu this week between her and Nicki Minaj. To be clear, I'm no fan of Nicki. I find her whiny and too often with the shade throwing and calling others out. But the fact is, she never mentioned Taylor in her tweets and so Taylor just looked incredibly stupid jumping in being defensive. But it's not surprising, because it speaks to her need to play victim. The backlash the last two days have been glorious. Of course she's already apologized and Nicki accepted it so I guess that's done, but it was fun while it lasted.

The one other thing that bothers me about Taylor is that while she may not necessarily be completely fake, I definitely think she's incredibly shrewd and calculating. Case in point, that collection of "best female friends" she has. The whole thing just feels so manipulative to me, not to mention a little creepy. It's like she's collecting people. But the most suspect is her sudden friendships with Zendaya and Seraya, two African American up and coming stars. I had never seen Taylor with these girls in any capacity and they had certainly never given any impression of knowing her on any level. Then an article comes out sometimes last year questioning how white and blonde all those famous BFF's she has were, and suddenly there pops up Zendaya and Seraya.

And she's so over the top in her attitude you can't help thinking it's all fake. Again, no one had ever seen any evidence or heard of any evidence of these friendships until the two showed up in the Bad Blood video and awkwardly stood next to Taylor at the Billboard Awards. And yet, some weeks later, when Zendaya graduated from high school, Taylor was all over her twitter about how she was crying and she was so proud of her bestie and it's like "really..." I mean no one can have that many best friends. It's just not normal.

The other evidence of her being shrewd is that I definitely think she realized the tide was turning slightly against her after her and Harry Styles were over and people seemed over her whole "let me rag on my ex" schtick. Not to mention people starting to call out the fact that all these guys could not have been the problem and maybe the problem is her. Also, while she was used to saying her shit while most of the guys said nothing back and Harry to his credit didn't say anything against her either, his bandmates pretty much publicly called out her petty behavior. It was a first for people not just kissing her ass.

So I think sensing the tide was turning, she suddenly changed her tune and this latest album, she talked about the songs about her ex being nothing like the others. Suddenly the angry songs were gone and she's spinning about how this is the first time she's friends with an ex and how there's a wistfulness to the songs and how Harry heard all of them before the album came out, etc. Because she realized the bitter ex-girlfriend schtick was getting old for some so she changed gears.

And you know, the cynical side of me kind of respects her Machiavellian ways. I just need the narrative of perfect, saint Taylor to end soon. Like I said, I do think she's a decent writer and producer and talented on that level but no one needs to be praised and exalted so much. Some criticism is always good for the soul - keeps you humble and she needs it in my opinion.

Edited July 23, 2015 by truthaboutluv.

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There is actually one particular song--and it may be the only one--where she apologizes to an ex-boyfriend for how she treated him, one who she dumped herself: "Back to December", which is most likely about Taylor Lautner. She has even admitted that that song is the first time she has ever apologized to someone in a song. And I actually think it is one of the best songs she's ever done.

I also like the song she wrote for her mom--"The Best Day". It's even more poignant now that her mom has cancer. I wonder how she's doing.

This video has lots of cute Baby!Taylor/Toddler!Taylor footage, too.

Edited July 23, 2015 by UYI.

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Yes I know about Back To December and it is about Taylor Lautner. Yes, when I heard about it being an apology I was convinced that Lautner was a saint because if Taylor was actually willing to not play the victim in a situation with a guy, he had to be pretty damn perfect. The belief is that she screwed him over for her brief fling with John Mayer that not surprisingly did not end well.