I know this is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs here, but I realized just now that we haven't really delved into these two distinctions because much of the time people differ on the very definition of a "demon" (culturally, spiritually and/or from a professional conjurer's perspective)... so bear with me, if we can somehow move past the sometimes messy topic of what constitutes a demon (impossible to reach a consensus, of course) and go straight to BA demons vs. DA demons... then I will share my thoughts...

I've been attacked by BA demons. This has been detailed elsewhere in other threads (look up "easter sunday") as keywords if you want recaps. I've also known a handful of DA demons (including two lovely fallen archangels in my family, recent acquires and also "demon commanders" from Adelphia and Akelta) - like Adelphia's Prince T, and they are NOTHING like the creatures that were sent to cause me harm.

BA demons - Robotic, these guys operate like they're on a mission (and woe if you're the target.. I should've been dead as a result of the attack, as they hit me when I was driving on the freeway at 60 mph)... there's no room for indecisiveness, emoting or conversation even. They're like DRONE missiles... carrying the bleakest and most malevolent emotions available on the human spectrum. The way I described it in my other posts: Picture a scene where there is a victim and an attacker, and the victim is getting dismembered limb by limb with a chainsaw... the screams and sheer torment, anguish and seering pain of the victim being torn asunder and the attacker's sheer malevolence, rage and violence... take those emotions and roll them up into one entity.. and you have a BA demon (according to what I encountered).

NOT fun.

DA demons - loyal, fierce protectors, sarcastic and blunt in personality, loving, sexy with that swaaagger (If you know what I mean), conscious of hierarchy... and certainly not the darkest on the spectrum in terms of what can be conjured as reported by our fellow conjurers in the community... AMORAL, I'd venture to say, which isn't the same as IMMORAL.. meaning our sense of right and wrong does not apply to them. It's all contingent upon the keeper.

These are just my impressions, and obviously I'm extremely inexperienced but I'm reporting this just to add to the collective discussion on these beings...

Terror Misu wrote:I know this is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs here, but I realized just now that we haven't really delved into these two distinctions because much of the time people differ on the very definition of a "demon" (culturally, spiritually and/or from a professional conjurer's perspective)... so bear with me, if we can somehow move past the sometimes messy topic of what constitutes a demon (impossible to reach a consensus, of course) and go straight to BA demons vs. DA demons... then I will share my thoughts...

I've been attacked by BA demons. This has been detailed elsewhere in other threads (look up "easter sunday") as keywords if you want recaps. I've also known a handful of DA demons (including two lovely fallen archangels in my family, recent acquires and also "demon commanders" from Adelphia and Akelta) - like Adelphia's Prince T, and they are NOTHING like the creatures that were sent to cause me harm.

BA demons - Robotic, these guys operate like they're on a mission (and woe if you're the target.. I should've been dead as a result of the attack, as they hit me when I was driving on the freeway at 60 mph)... there's no room for indecisiveness, emoting or conversation even. They're like DRONE missiles... carrying the bleakest and most malevolent emotions available on the human spectrum. The way I described it in my other posts: Picture a scene where there is a victim and an attacker, and the victim is getting dismembered limb by limb with a chainsaw... the screams and sheer torment, anguish and seering pain of the victim being torn asunder and the attacker's sheer malevolence, rage and violence... take those emotions and roll them up into one entity.. and you have a BA demon (according to what I encountered).

NOT fun.

DA demons - loyal, fierce protectors, sarcastic and blunt in personality, loving, sexy with that swaaagger (If you know what I mean), conscious of hierarchy... and certainly not the darkest on the spectrum in terms of what can be conjured as reported by our fellow conjurers in the community... AMORAL, I'd venture to say, which isn't the same as IMMORAL.. meaning our sense of right and wrong does not apply to them. It's all contingent upon the keeper.

These are just my impressions, and obviously I'm extremely inexperienced but I'm reporting this just to add to the collective discussion on these beings...

Any thoughts?

Terror, that was a very good take on the distinctions between the two as I am beginning to understand them. I especially like when you said "Amoral" instead of "Immoral". I believe a lot depends on the individual keeper and what their standards may be.

However, in today's world, everything that is viewed as bad or malicious is a "Demon". I watch a lot of Paranormal shows and Ghost Hunting shows and almost everything is a "Demon".

"What you messed with the Ouija Board?..you just unleashed a Demon""I see a pentagram (point up) Satan and demons at work here"

on and on and on.

People need to be more educated before jumping to conclusions.

Phil.

Ghastly grim and ancient raven wandering from the Nightly shore-Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!"Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."- Poe

I agree with what you've said, however I think it's also important to make a clear distinction as to what we are considering "BA". I believe Ash has defined BA beings as those who are extremely difficult or impossible to control, and who will almost always choose to take actions that we would consider "wrong", however the term BA seems to have different meaning to everyone. If a certain entity fits every criteria for it being a BA - EXCEPT that it's willing to work with a human.. if they are malevolent toward everyone else but benevolent toward the companion, is it a BA? If an entity dedicates itself to assisting you along your path.. and yet will gladly cause all sorts of havoc and destruction if you allow it to.. is it still considered BA?

I think it's hard to draw a fine line between what is at the depths of DA and what is BA.. and really, I just see it as a human need to label and organise complex concepts into an easily recognizable system..

Terror Misu wrote:I know this is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs here, but I realized just now that we haven't really delved into these two distinctions because much of the time people differ on the very definition of a "demon" (culturally, spiritually and/or from a professional conjurer's perspective)... so bear with me, if we can somehow move past the sometimes messy topic of what constitutes a demon (impossible to reach a consensus, of course) and go straight to BA demons vs. DA demons... then I will share my thoughts...

I've been attacked by BA demons. This has been detailed elsewhere in other threads (look up "easter sunday") as keywords if you want recaps. I've also known a handful of DA demons (including two lovely fallen archangels in my family, recent acquires and also "demon commanders" from Adelphia and Akelta) - like Adelphia's Prince T, and they are NOTHING like the creatures that were sent to cause me harm.

BA demons - Robotic, these guys operate like they're on a mission (and woe if you're the target.. I should've been dead as a result of the attack, as they hit me when I was driving on the freeway at 60 mph)... there's no room for indecisiveness, emoting or conversation even. They're like DRONE missiles... carrying the bleakest and most malevolent emotions available on the human spectrum. The way I described it in my other posts: Picture a scene where there is a victim and an attacker, and the victim is getting dismembered limb by limb with a chainsaw... the screams and sheer torment, anguish and seering pain of the victim being torn asunder and the attacker's sheer malevolence, rage and violence... take those emotions and roll them up into one entity.. and you have a BA demon (according to what I encountered).

NOT fun.

DA demons - loyal, fierce protectors, sarcastic and blunt in personality, loving, sexy with that swaaagger (If you know what I mean), conscious of hierarchy... and certainly not the darkest on the spectrum in terms of what can be conjured as reported by our fellow conjurers in the community... AMORAL, I'd venture to say, which isn't the same as IMMORAL.. meaning our sense of right and wrong does not apply to them. It's all contingent upon the keeper.

These are just my impressions, and obviously I'm extremely inexperienced but I'm reporting this just to add to the collective discussion on these beings...

Any thoughts?

Terror I agree with everything you have said!

BA entities are cold, nasty, malicious, do not have feelings, take great pleasure from torment and suffering and are a general pain in the a$$ because even when you give them tasks and commands part of their nature is to harm you and suck your energy. I honestly believe that if they could they would destroy your soul and eat it just to gain you power and for pleasure. They are very much like a missile, they just appear out of no where sometimes and strike.

My third encounter with a BA entity growing up was watching it latch onto and begin eating my friends aura. It eventually worked it's way so far into her that it was able to possess her and one night it took complete control of her and she physically attacked me. Luckily, I had learned enough by that point to knock her out and remove the entity from her. Plus I had a few of my Demons assisting me and providing protection. We then had to do a ritual to remove any residual energies and basically seal her off from the spiritual world and silence all her abilities in order for her to heal. After that she changed and became very scientific and lost all her spiritual abilities. The good thing is she is safe. This is one of the reasons I am dead set against people dabbling and messing around with forces that they have no idea about. It can seriously hurt you.

All the DA Demons I have encountered are amazing. My Demons complete me and enhance my human experience. They are very protective, wise, powerful, helpful, experienced, sarcastic, fun and yes a lot of the higher level males are charmers and womanizers I have found that they tend to treat their keepers like family. They do have a complex hierarchy and are very loyal to their families. It is true they have their own honour system and what is right and wrong to us does not apply to them and they are capable of committing dark acts and going to great lengths to fulfil their keepers wishes. Which is why I always tell them to make sure they act in a way that does not harm my friends, family and pets. They are dark but that is true that they are not the darkest thing out there. The complexity of DA Demons and their worlds are to much for me to write out on this thread but I think you get the idea.

Terror, really glad you are enjoying the newest members of your family

I agree with the definition,I think BA should be defined for what not only don't care about others beings but truly only want to destroy them. Being who really aren't capable of any kind of good emotion or caring. Just being difficult to control is not a good definition.

Other DA can be difficult to control and I think amoral, can be used right to say they have a different definition of right and wrong, and prefer to take very dark choices but they can care and love others and their keepers.

With DA demons all I meet are loyal, very sure of their own principles and protective. They very honest and blunt with the truth. They have their own sense of humor and very distinctive personalities. I have one I like to joke he's pessimistic and dramatic, he can't just tell me truth of a situation he need to show me the worst possible result of it.

"Let no thought of limitation enter your mind." -Robert Collier“The soul would have no rainbows if the eyes had no tears." -Native American Proverb"Death leaves a heartache no one can heal, love leaves a memory no one can steal." -From a headstone in Ireland

Anna Wigglebottom wrote:Another question, When a conjurer says a demon's been bound in such a way, that it cannot harm it's keeper, what exactly do they mean by this?

I tend to believe they are not talking about a BA demon, unless it was forcibly bound. If the being thinks it can get something out of the deal, maybe it will go along, but that would be no guarantee of unharm.

Anna Wigglebottom wrote:I am suddenly very confused. I feel like going back to the basics once again.

If true BA are beings that do not care for you, why would they wish to be bound? Or are they forcibly bound?

That's what i'm trying to ascertain. Are we talking about 'true' BA, or are we talking about beings that are recognized as BA.. yet who are benevolent to their human companion? I believe it's a distinction worth making.

From what I know of why they'd want to be bound.. or more specifically, why they'd want to work with a human.. it gives them an outlet for their power without having to 'go to war' to get it. It gives them authority in this world to do the things they're good at, on the behalf of the human.. as the keeper bears the brunt of responsibility.

Anna Wigglebottom wrote:If they come forward to wreak havoc in your life, what do they get out of it?What do demons get out of possessing one's body?

From my experiences, the most important reason they want control or access to a body is POWER. It allows them to experience all of the physical world through the human's body, and in extreme cases allows them to take full control of it.. thus they practically 'own' their own physical body. It takes their actions to a whole other level, literally. Merging with the human gives them unprecedented authority to do whatever they want to people in our world. Laws no longer bind them and the human takes ALL responsibility for them and their actions. Once they have possession, they can do anything and everything because they're ALLOWED to.