The European Telecommunications Standards Institute will not hold a vote today on a new nano-SIM standard, as two competing camps led by Apple and Nokia have not been able to come to terms.

The ETSI meeting started Thursday, and a vote was scheduled to be held Friday. But the participating companies have been unable to reach an agreement, and decided not to hold the vote, according to FOSS Patents.

ETSI rules now dictate that the vote must be postponed by a minimum of 30 days. That will give both Apple and Nokia at least another month to convince the other side to adopt their proposed nano-SIM standard.

The nano-SIM battle ratcheted up this week after Nokia said it would refuse to license its SIM patents if the ETSI chooses Apple's design. As many as 50 patent families owned by Nokia could be relevant to Apple's proposed nano-SIM design.

In an attempt to drum up support for its nano-SIM design, Apple earlier this week pledged royalty-free licensing of its nano-SIM design. But Nokia publicly panned Apple's offer, dismissing it as "an attempt to devalue the intellectual property of others."

Aligned with Nokia are Motorola Mobility and Research in Motion, who are concerned that Apple could own the patents related to design of the nano-SIM. They also believe that use of Apple's smaller SIM card would require a special "drawer" to protect the card.

Oberthur Technologies' nano-SIM prototype. | Source: The Verge

The nano-SIM standard aims to replace the MicroSIM card, which was originally pushed by Apple in 2010 with the launch of the iPhone 4. Apple's new nano-SIM would be a bout a third smaller than MicroSIM, allowing smartphone makers to potentially build even smaller devices.

Prior to the nano-SIM dispute, Apple was said to have been working on an embedded SIM design that would have allowed users to select a carrier and service plan directly from their iPhone. But Apple's plans allegedly upset carriers who felt they would be marginalized by an embedded SIM.

And so Apple abandoned those plans, and instead began talking with carriers about designing a smaller SIM card. As a result, most European carriers are in Apple's corner in the ETSI vote over the new nano-SIM standard.

...
The nano-SIM standard aims to replace the MicroSIM card, which was originally pushed by Apple in 2010 with the launch of the iPhone 4. Apple's new nano-SIM would be a bout a third smaller than MicroSIM, allowing smartphone makers to potentially build even smaller devices...

30 days! ! I can't wait to have a nano-SIM and stop lugging those extra 2 mg around... /s

Just get rid of SIM cards -- but only if ALL CARRIERS (including pay as you go!) who offer wireless that is compatible with a given phone can enable their service with each device, and the other functions like transferring contacts are easily exportable as they are via SIM card today.

So this in now SIMgate with the 30-day delay. ETSI has never seen such excitement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeRange

So what happens when you team up with MSFT? You do like Nokia, refuse to provide access to patents which in fact you are legally obligated to under FRAND agreements. Nice. Can you say "antitrust".

It sounds like Apple is saying that there design is free if all SIM patents are also free. That sounds like it's trying to get around paying FRAND fees. If so, then I don't think Nokia is in the wrong to protest... those the way they are doing sure does come across as petty.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Ah, frick. Hope that gets taken care of soon; I'd love to see this vote take place in time for a nano-SIM to be put into production in the 6th iPhone.

I think the 6th gen iPhone has been finalized for awhile now. Even if they could change the size of the SIM used there would be point because the space saved would not allow a re-shifting of the other components. The 4th gen iPhone would be the earliest and only that because the SIM card location doesn't seem to affect other components around it.

PS: Can't you ban that ZZZ guy? All he does it troll. He never adds to the conservation.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

It sounds like Apple is saying that there design is free if all SIM patents are also free. That sounds like it's trying to get around paying FRAND fees. If so, then I don't think Nokia is in the wrong to protest... those the way they are doing sure does come across as petty.

No, Apple offered to make their nano-SIM free because Nokia and its cronnies were spreading FUD that if anyone voted for Apple's version that Apple would then "own" the new SIM standard and would use it to exert control over all other carriers with their licensing fees. You know, they were spreading rumor that Apple would act like they are now.

In response, Apple came out and stated that this was never their intent and to prove it they offered to basically give this for free to all parties interested as long as everyone else who owned patents on the SIM agreed to give theirs away for free as well.

To which Nokia and its cronies replied by whining that Apple is acting to devalue their precious IP.

What a bunch of hypocrites. They complain that Apple will exploit their patents for its personal gain and how unfair that is, then when Apple proves that isn't their intent they show their true colors and prove that all they wanted to do the whole time was exploit their patents for personal gain, you know the thing that they badmouthed Apple for wanting to do.

Of course, when the patents from their former days of innovation is all that they have that they can make any money on I guess they have to leverage it as much as possible. But their actions in this whole case shows that they really should spend a little money on PR because they are coming out of this looking terrible.

So who sets the FRAND "rules" anyhow? Private agreement or governments?

Essentially there's no such thing as "FRAND rules". Each standards body sets the ground rules as it applies to their specific set of standards. Some just give guidance and suggestions on how royalties and licensing should be handled while other are more specific.

No, Apple offered to make their nano-SIM free because Nokia and its cronnies were spreading FUD that if anyone voted for Apple's version that Apple would then "own" the new SIM standard and would use it to exert control over all other carriers with their licensing fees. You know, they were spreading rumor that Apple would act like they are now.

In response, Apple came out and stated that this was never their intent and to prove it they offered to basically give this for free to all parties interested as long as everyone else who owned patents on the SIM agreed to give theirs away for free as well.

To which Nokia and its cronies replied by whining that Apple is acting to devalue their precious IP.

What a bunch of hypocrites. They complain that Apple will exploit their patents for its personal gain and how unfair that is, then when Apple proves that isn't their intent they show their true colors and prove that all they wanted to do the whole time was exploit their patents for personal gain, you know the thing that they badmouthed Apple for wanting to do.

Of course, when the patents from their former days of innovation is all that they have that they can make any money on I guess they have to leverage it as much as possible. But their actions in this whole case shows that they really should spend a little money on PR because they are coming out of this looking terrible.

With all the suing everyone is doing it is not surprising companies feel this way. Apple "says" they will give it away but have they done anything official? Signed papers, made it legal ect..... Or they just gave their "word". With all the lawsuits, Apple's "word" is not enough.

No, Apple offered to make their nano-SIM free because Nokia and its cronnies were spreading FUD that if anyone voted for Apple's version that Apple would then "own" the new SIM standard and would use it to exert control over all other carriers with their licensing fees. You know, they were spreading rumor that Apple would act like they are now.

In response, Apple came out and stated that this was never their intent and to prove it they offered to basically give this for free to all parties interested as long as everyone else who owned patents on the SIM agreed to give theirs away for free as well.

To which Nokia and its cronies replied by whining that Apple is acting to devalue their precious IP.

What a bunch of hypocrites. They complain that Apple will exploit their patents for its personal gain and how unfair that is, then when Apple proves that isn't their intent they show their true colors and prove that all they wanted to do the whole time was exploit their patents for personal gain, you know the thing that they badmouthed Apple for wanting to do.

Of course, when the patents from their former days of innovation is all that they have that they can make any money on I guess they have to leverage it as much as possible. But their actions in this whole case shows that they really should spend a little money on PR because they are coming out of this looking terrible.

Speaking of FUD, your whole comment is a good example...

Nokia claims Apple currently has no patents relevant to SIM cards. Assuming this statement is true, what does Apple have to "give away" for free for a new SIM design? As someone else mentioned in a comment to a previous article, Apple has already notified ETSI that they've filed patents relevant to their SIM design. This is what Apple has to give away for free.

So Apple currently has nothing relevant to SIM cards. It's trying to write itself as being necessary for the next gen SIM card. By doing so it can avoid licensing IP by either (a) making the other companies contribute their IP for free or (b) make them license Apple's IP thereby effectively giving their IP rights to Apple for free. Yes, Apple's true colors are to avoid licensing fees and thus increase their own profits. How massively altruistic of them. By your logic I guess Apple gives away a free iPad with at least a minimum $399 donation...

But you are right about one thing. Apple is better about playing the PR game. Apple's offer to allow use of their IP makes them look good. At least until realize all they're really doing is trying to increase their profit margin.

No, Apple offered to make their nano-SIM free because Nokia and its cronnies were spreading FUD that if anyone voted for Apple's version that Apple would then "own" the new SIM standard and would use it to exert control over all other carriers with their licensing fees. You know, they were spreading rumor that Apple would act like they are now.

In response, Apple came out and stated that this was never their intent and to prove it they offered to basically give this for free to all parties interested as long as everyone else who owned patents on the SIM agreed to give theirs away for free as well.

To which Nokia and its cronies replied by whining that Apple is acting to devalue their precious IP.

What a bunch of hypocrites. They complain that Apple will exploit their patents for its personal gain and how unfair that is, then when Apple proves that isn't their intent they show their true colors and prove that all they wanted to do the whole time was exploit their patents for personal gain, you know the thing that they badmouthed Apple for wanting to do.

Of course, when the patents from their former days of innovation is all that they have that they can make any money on I guess they have to leverage it as much as possible. But their actions in this whole case shows that they really should spend a little money on PR because they are coming out of this looking terrible.

Nokia is a dying company. They sold their soul to the devil (Microsoft) and are now paying the price. This whole SIMgate shows how they want to cripple innovation by using their patents to stifle innovation.

Nokia is a dying company. They sold their soul to the devil (Microsoft) and are now paying the price. This whole SIMgate shows how they want to cripple innovation by using their patents to stifle innovation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GQB

Guess we'll just have to wait for the toilet to finish flushing on Nokia until we can get some progress.

Evidence? No forget it coz there isn't any.

Just because we're Apple fans there is no need to constantly bad mouth other companies.

I've used Nokia phones for years. They've always been reliable and good quality. They're still the largest mobile phone company in the world so they're not going anywhere.

No, Apple offered to make their nano-SIM free because Nokia and its cronnies were spreading FUD that if anyone voted for Apple's version that Apple would then "own" the new SIM standard and would use it to exert control over all other carriers with their licensing fees. You know, they were spreading rumor that Apple would act like they are now.

In response, Apple came out and stated that this was never their intent and to prove it they offered to basically give this for free to all parties interested as long as everyone else who owned patents on the SIM agreed to give theirs away for free as well.

To which Nokia and its cronies replied by whining that Apple is acting to devalue their precious IP.

What a bunch of hypocrites. They complain that Apple will exploit their patents for its personal gain and how unfair that is, then when Apple proves that isn't their intent they show their true colors and prove that all they wanted to do the whole time was exploit their patents for personal gain, you know the thing that they badmouthed Apple for wanting to do.

Of course, when the patents from their former days of innovation is all that they have that they can make any money on I guess they have to leverage it as much as possible. But their actions in this whole case shows that they really should spend a little money on PR because they are coming out of this looking terrible.

I think this is an excellent summation of the situation.

I'm more than a little shocked at the two conspiracy-theory-aficionado-like responses it's received so far.

My take on this is just that Apple has responded to the contest for the new SIM design with an obviously superior design that (technically) bends some of the rules of the contest in a typically Apple-like way. Ergo, Apple will probably lose simply because Nokia and RIM don't want to be humiliated.

It's about ego and political pull.
Nokia and RIM both have huge helpings of both. Whereas Apple just has a better design.

Just because we're Apple fans there is no need to constantly bad mouth other companies.

I've used Nokia phones for years. They've always been reliable and good quality. They're still the largest mobile phone company in the world so they're not going anywhere.

How many Microsoft phones has Nokia sold? What does their market share look like? Yeah, I would say there is plenty of evidence showing the death spiral Nokia is in. Not to mention they have nothing to distinguish themselves from other Microsoft clone phone makers. Just like the android cloners, race to the bottom. Although, at least people are buying the Android cloner phones.

Just because we're Apple fans there is no need to constantly bad mouth other companies.

I've used Nokia phones for years. They've always been reliable and good quality. They're still the largest mobile phone company in the world so they're not going anywhere.

I think that the main problem with the Apple proposal for the point of view of Nokia y RIM is that is basically the same sim design a design with more than 20 years and due that 20 year is the length of a patent that means most of the essential patent have expired or would expire shortly.

I think that the main problem with the Apple proposal for the point of view of Nokia y RIM is that is basically the same sim design a design with more than 20 years and due that 20 year is the length of a patent that means most of the essential patent have expired or would expire shortly.

I think you're onto something there. I was wondering why Nokia and RiM were wanting such a radical change from the current SIM design. That's certainly plausible.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

My take on this is just that Apple has responded to the contest for the new SIM design with an obviously superior design that (technically) bends some of the rules of the contest in a typically Apple-like way.

What is "obviously superior" about Apple's design? It's the same as the micro SIM with less plastic. At least the Nokia design brings something new to the table by allowing it be slot loaded instead of only tray loaded.

Quote:

It's about ego and political pull.

BS. It's about money. Apple is attempting to avoid paying licensing fees for SIM technology. It's playing the PR game by announcing they'll license their IP for free which is only relevant for THEIR SIM card design.

I think you're onto something there. I was wondering why Nokia and RiM were wanting such a radical change from the current SIM design. That's certainly plausible.

As I understand it, the companies do not want the change, the standards board does. They presented the desire to phone manufactures and afforded them the opportunity to present designs. Then one design will be decided on and that will be the standard across all phones allowing for ease of manufacturing and compatibility. I do not think this is being driven by the companies. With that said I think these other companies are raising a fuss because they know the only reason Apple is presenting this design is because of form factor and if they can put the squeeze on the form factor it may cause Apple to go back to the drawing board.

BS. It's about money. Apple is attempting to avoid paying licensing fees for SIM technology. It's playing the PR game by announcing they'll license their IP for free which is only relevant for THEIR SIM card design.

And Nokia and RiM are excluded from this "all about money" theory?

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

As I understand it, the companies do not want the change, the standards board does. They presented the desire to phone manufactures and afforded them the opportunity to present designs. Then one design will be decided on and that will be the standard across all phones allowing for ease of manufacturing and compatibility. I do not think this is being driven by the companies. With that said I think these other companies are raising a fuss because they know the only reason Apple is presenting this design is because of form factor and if they can put the squeeze on the form factor it may cause Apple to go back to the drawing board.

Back in the day I was involved in a standards body on behalf of the company I worked for. In my experience these bodies tend to be made up of current or former employees of companies in that industry. They don't tend to propose many things. I suspect that Apple has probably submitted a proposal for the nano SIM and sought approval from the standards body to legitimise their design given that it would have to be a cross platform thing.

What is "obviously superior" about Apple's design? It's the same as the micro SIM with less plastic. At least the Nokia design brings something new to the table by allowing it be slot loaded instead of only tray loaded.

BS. It's about money. Apple is attempting to avoid paying licensing fees for SIM technology. It's playing the PR game by announcing they'll license their IP for free which is only relevant for THEIR SIM card design.

They don't have a design their just taking scissors to the current mini SIM design making it even smaller by cutting off the rest of the board around it. Which is ok by me I just wish Apple would present it that way instead of saying it's their design.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.

I think that the main problem with the Apple proposal for the point of view of Nokia y RIM is that is basically the same sim design a design with more than 20 years and due that 20 year is the length of a patent that means most of the essential patent have expired or would expire shortly.

I'm sorry but I didn't follow what you are saying.

My understanding is that Apple's proposal would see a licence free FRAND design which anybody could use, whereas if Nokia wins they would licence the design for a fee albeit a small FRAND fee. Isn't this basically about control? Who controls the design and therefore how that design will evolve over the years. Apple like to keep control of their products as best they can.

I haven't really followed this debate closely so if anyone clarify that would useful.

How many Microsoft phones has Nokia sold? What does their market share look like? Yeah, I would say there is plenty of evidence showing the death spiral Nokia is in. Not to mention they have nothing to distinguish themselves from other Microsoft clone phone makers. Just like the android cloners, race to the bottom. Although, at least people are buying the Android cloner phones.

I've no idea on sales and market share - you're the one saying they're all but dead so presumably you have the figures to back that up. As far as I know they have only just launched their main smartphones, the Lumia 800 and 900 so we will have to see if they sell well. I've owned Nokia phones for many years and never had any complaints.

This is not going to end up a 2 horse race. I believe that ultimately there will be 4 or 5 dominate market players in a few years time once all the mergers, acquisitions and alliances have all been played out and bedded down.

What is "obviously superior" about Apple's design? It's the same as the micro SIM with less plastic. At least the Nokia design brings something new to the table by allowing it be slot loaded instead of only tray loaded.

BS. It's about money. Apple is attempting to avoid paying licensing fees for SIM technology. It's playing the PR game by announcing they'll license their IP for free which is only relevant for THEIR SIM card design.

I've already provided more back-up for my theory than you have for yours, which is basically just an assumption and not a theory at all.

You seem angry and unlikely to be convinced but here are just a few thoughts on why Apple's design is "better" IMO.

1) Apple's design does not preclude it's use in devices without SIM trays, but the tray design is better because it's actually smaller than the ejection mechanism needed to eject a SIM of that size.

2) The tray design is also better for alignment of the SIM (which is crucial at such small sizes), more secure, more protected, and with less moving parts than a slot loading design.

3) The tray design takes fewer movements and less time to get at the sim unless you just leave an open slot on the side of the device, which is open to the elements.

4) The fact that the contacts on Apple's design are exactly the same contacts on the microSIM as well as exactly the same contacts as are on the regular SIM, means that Apples design is far more backwards compatible than the others. With a simple adapter or the clipped plastic from one of the larger sim models, it can be instantly transformed back into the two older size SIMs and re-used in phones that use those sizes. Nokia's and RIM's designs require a complete break with all older devices.

5) It's the smallest of the three.

The only way in which Apple "violated" the rules of the contest BTW, is that it's *possible* (if you are a dumbasss), that if you have a new Apple nanoSIM, and an old phone with a slot loading design, you *could* (if you are a dumbass) put it in sideways and therefore it *could (if you are a dumbass) get it stuck.

The way I see it, that's one minor possible drawback vs. many major advantages for Apple's design over Nokia's or RIM's.

With all the suing everyone is doing it is not surprising companies feel this way. Apple "says" they will give it away but have they done anything official? Signed papers, made it legal ect..... Or they just gave their "word". With all the lawsuits, Apple's "word" is not enough.

They said that if their design was chosen that they would make it freely available. As with other standards like this it is a binding agreement because if/when the standards body would choose that design Apple would have to sign away their rights. If they don't then the standards body is able to drop the design and choose another one. This isn't anything new or unheard of, it happens a lot and is basically the same thing that every company does when they make a patent FRAND. If it was only a company's word then there would be no legal basis for any of these cases or the EU's anti-competitive investigation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caliminius

Nokia claims Apple currently has no patents relevant to SIM cards. Assuming this statement is true, what does Apple have to "give away" for free for a new SIM design? As someone else mentioned in a comment to a previous article, Apple has already notified ETSI that they've filed patents relevant to their SIM design. This is what Apple has to give away for free.

So Apple currently has nothing relevant to SIM cards. It's trying to write itself as being necessary for the next gen SIM card. By doing so it can avoid licensing IP by either (a) making the other companies contribute their IP for free or (b) make them license Apple's IP thereby effectively giving their IP rights to Apple for free. Yes, Apple's true colors are to avoid licensing fees and thus increase their own profits. How massively altruistic of them. By your logic I guess Apple gives away a free iPad with at least a minimum $399 donation...

But you are right about one thing. Apple is better about playing the PR game. Apple's offer to allow use of their IP makes them look good. At least until realize all they're really doing is trying to increase their profit margin.

This whole anti-Apple conspiracy would hold a lot more water if it weren't for one very important fact. Apple did not initially offer to void all licensing payments. Apple was more than willing to move along with the process as it typically goes with all interested parties getting to collect FRAND license payments on the selected design. Meaning that they were going to be paying more than they would be making on each and every nano-SIM.

This whole idea that they are proposing this so that they don't have to pay licensing is BS. They only proposed not collecting any licensing payments after the others claimed that Apple would abuse their patent licenses. These so called "good companies" that you are holding up by cutting down Apple are the ones that forced the "no licensing" issue by claiming that Apple would abuse their patents.

Which for the record is what Motorola is doing right this instance. Something that Apple, the company that you are vilifying, has never to my knowledge done. Apple may sue others, but they have never done so using any of their patents which are FRAND licensed. And they easily could. They own patents on standards relevant to every company that they are currently in battle with, but unlike those they are fighting they are not bringing out FRAND patents. Apple does a lot of questionable stuff, but this is not one thing that they have done.

But, hey, hating Apple is the cool thing to do now because they are the big, bad corporate devil. Right? Poor little Nokia, Motorola, and RIM aren't evil at all. They don't ever do anything dishonest or abusive, do they? So, they must be the better companies to give control of a new SIM standard to.

If you don't like Apple that is fine with me, but at least be honest enough to hate them for the right reasons. This isn't the right reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caliminius

BS. It's about money. Apple is attempting to avoid paying licensing fees for SIM technology. It's playing the PR game by announcing they'll license their IP for free which is only relevant for THEIR SIM card design.

You are absolutely correct that it is about the money. Nokia, Motorola, and RIM want to make sure that their design is chosen so that they can charge more for the new nano-SIM design. Thus, costing everyone involved, including the consumer more for each phone using the new standard. Apple makes so little money off of their licensing that they don't really care about licensing fees. They want the design that allows them the least hassle and the best industrial design for phones using the new nano-SIM standard.

The question that you need to ask yourself is why you are fighting for paying more just so Nokia, Motorola, and RIM can make some more money be weaponizing their IP portfolio? I would think that any reasonable consumer would be routing for the standard that would cost them the least amount of money.

The only logical conclusion that I can come up with for why you are routing against Apple's standard is that you simply have an irrational hatred of Apple (if this is the case you might want to seek professional help because that just isn't healthy) or you own a lot of stock in one of these companies (if this is the case you might want to seek professional help because owning their stock is likely not a good long term investment).

It seems a ridiculous state of affairs that we are now seeing major disagreements about how to make something that in this day and age should no longer be needed, smaller.

I actually think the people at fault here are the carriers. They believe that one of their tools to maintain subscribers is to make switching as difficult as they can, and they see needing to change a physical SIM card as part of that. What they should be doing in order to maintain subscribers is making their service better.

So who sets the FRAND "rules" anyhow? Private agreement or governments?

It's mostly private agreement established by a written contract between all parties in question. But the beauty is that FRAND doesn't have one rate etc for all things. The rule is that you have to set a rate that is appropriate for the patent you are licensing and is the same for all parties.

So Apple saying they would take nothing for their patents if everyone else that is involved in the patent agrees to take nothing is a valid rate. If everyone else says no to the free but says they would take $1 then they just need Apple to agree to that rate. And if they set a low rate Apple probably would say yes. Because it seems like what they don't want is for this to cost thousands per patent for folks to do because then they won't and what was the point of creating the standard in the first place

I'm more than a little shocked at the two conspiracy-theory-aficionado-like responses it's received so far.

My take on this is just that Apple has responded to the contest for the new SIM design with an obviously superior design that (technically) bends some of the rules of the contest in a typically Apple-like way. Ergo, Apple will probably lose simply because Nokia and RIM don't want to be humiliated.

It's about ego and political pull.
Nokia and RIM both have huge helpings of both. Whereas Apple just has a better design.

You have just provided a perfect example of an "Apple Insider one-eyed response"

Say for example that you personally owned these 50 essential patents, and you were earning, maybe, millions off them each year. Then Apple came along, suggested making the plastic thinner, cutting a little extra off the edge, and they will let everyone else do this as long as you stop charging for your patents.

I've no idea on sales and market share - you're the one saying they're all but dead so presumably you have the figures to back that up. As far as I know they have only just launched their main smartphones, the Lumia 800 and 900 so we will have to see if they sell well. I've owned Nokia phones for many years and never had any complaints.

This is not going to end up a 2 horse race. I believe that ultimately there will be 4 or 5 dominate market players in a few years time once all the mergers, acquisitions and alliances have all been played out and bedded down.

from earlier this year. Notice, there is no Nokia since there are just a Microsoft Windows Phone 7 clone maker. Where is that line? 2%....LOL. Yes, Nokia is dead. They are nothing but a windows clone maker now with nothing to differentiate their phones with thus no hope of every gaining market share.

Well it's only a question of time until Nokia goes RIM's way and Apple will no longer have anyone to argue / settle with, and their standard will be the only one submitted to the ETSI.

On that day I will stop buying Apple products because that would mean choice and competition is dead. I'm not bashing Apple in any way but the day that one company has that much power is the day I learn the lost art of pigeon carrier.

Nokia by the way is still a very strong company and I doubt it very, very much they will see the end anytime soon. Americans might not know the brand very well but us Europeans do as well as our Asian brothers to the east. I buy a new Nokia phone every, last year I bought the Nokia 701 and Lumia 800, this year I bought the N9 and will purchase the 808 when it comes out. You know the 808 the first and only phone that will have a 41MP camera and will hold that record for at least 2 years just like the N8 does now.

Yes the iPhone is a nice phone and has a large Apple following. Don't forget though Nokia also has a following and yes I am a proud Fangirl. I still own every Nokia I have ever owned going back 15 years and they all still work.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.

from earlier this year. Notice, there is no Nokia since there are just a Microsoft Windows Phone 7 clone maker. Where is that line? 2%....LOL. Yes, Nokia is dead. They are nothing but a windows clone maker now with nothing to differentiate their phones with thus no hope of every gaining market share.

Market share, they sell the most phones in the world still. That market is dwindling quickly yes, no doubt about that but their phones are still good. Especially these new batch that were just introduced. The Nokia 900 will be a big hit in the US if you like or not. Clone maker that doesn't even make sense, Microsoft doesn't make hardware only software. WP7 is a pretty good OS. So I have no doubt that they'll gain market share in the future. If there is a phone plarform to replace RIM with, it's the Windows one, hands down one of the best business systems I have ever seen. I replaced my personal phone which was a iPhone 4 for a Nokia Lumia 800 and a Nokia N9. Well the Nokia N9 was more of a collectors item and toy but the Lumia 800 is an incredible phone non the less and when the 900 is available here I'll sell the 800 and buy that one as well.

America is not a big market for Nokia at least not yet but the rest of world still likes them.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.