One thing that worries me about the way Microsoft are trying to develop narrator. The development is good, but they really do need to make it easier for third party readers to use what it uses. So often I hear, well Narrator can do it, but nothing else does. I suggest this is because Narrator has a lot more access to the innards of windows than a third party screenreader does, probably due to there being fewer security issues as its built in and can use hooking into things that would be a security risk if allowed outside. I have tried recent Narrator, and although it is than it used to be, it seems often a bit clumsy and slow compared to nvda. Brian

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing's frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

When I used JAWS with Oracle SQL Developer yesterday and had IE open to watch a getting started video, after it was over and I pressed CTRL+W to close the tab, JAWS was still running, but acted like it was
sitting there. I could press ALT+TAB, and it would speak that, but not where I was. I had to press INSERT+F4 and close JAWS out. When I fired up NVDA, it worked like a charm.

Maybe gratitude was not the right word to use in my original message. I meant that NVDA does a hell of a lot for us, even though there is always room for improvement. Therapists are often the one that preach
an attitude of gratitude. I used my Employee Assistance Program to help with depression. That is how I learned about this stuff.

Well, as I reported before, my experience is that nvda is more stable in work environments than Jaws. an employer reported to me that they tested both on their systems, and Jaws refuse to run on the customer-facing machines. even considering all the factors
that would have to be in play, I feel pretty confident saying that nvda is more stable than Jaws. I would even say, much more stable than Jaws. if that is a put-down of an extremely expensive, highly proprietary, and somewhat unstable workplace application,
I make no apologies. if they build a better product, I will consider using it and endorsing it. if I go into a work environment, and I need something that nvda doesn't offer, and Jaws will work in that situation, I will use it. I won't complain, even though
I personally find a Jaws unwieldy to use.

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization. It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?
You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person. If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample. But I don't believe in trying
to build up NVDA's reputation by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way. I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion. I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.

And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize.

Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.

You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.
You can't create frames. I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in. I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the
person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage. You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script. Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read
a proprietary data base used at a job.

Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement. No one is served.

Great endorsement! I love this one! Everyone please pass this message along!

Roger

On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if
not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It
is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference
implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server
Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education
and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

Please read my message again. I said nothing
of the sort. I have discussed what I said in other messages that you will
see.

As for which I prefer, for general nonwork and
academic use, I prefer NVDA. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for
years.

There are academic and work settings where NVDA
would be fine. There are many in which it would fall short and some of
those could be corrected by user definable parameters available in JAWS,
allowing someone who is not knowledgeable about writing NVDA scripts to do what
is necessary. That means that JAWS can be modified in many instances by
someone far more quickly, such as a DVR employee or contractor who might go to
the work site and do so. With NVDA, the modifications would be done by
someone writing a script, and even if it would be advantageous to have the
person do so on the web site to see if the work meets the specific program use
requirements well, the person would usually be scripting at a distance, using
information about what is needed. And time might be lost finding
someone willing to write the script.

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene
prefers Jaws over NVDA. We allhave the right to our own opinions. We should
be able to agree to disagree.After all, that's what life is all
about--differing viewpoints. I used Jawsfor years and both Jaws and NVDA are
great programs. NVDA serves my needsvery
well.

THis really has nothing to do with the current
conversation, but I have toask.Since when did human society degrade to
such a point that people cannot havedifferent viewpoints on issues.I
happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS. THat is
not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.Jean, it
appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't wejust agree
to disagree?"

Well, as I reported before, my experience is that nvda is more stable in work environments than Jaws. an employer reported to me that they tested both on their systems, and Jaws refuse to run on the customer-facing machines. even considering all the factors that would have to be in play, I feel pretty confident saying that nvda is more stable than Jaws. I would even say, much more stable than Jaws. if that is a put-down of an extremely expensive, highly proprietary, and somewhat unstable workplace application, I make no apologies. if they build a better product, I will consider using it and endorsing it. if I go into a work environment, and I need something that nvda doesn't offer, and Jaws will work in that situation, I will use it. I won't complain, even though I personally find a Jaws unwieldy to use.

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS
crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization. It is one person's
experience on how many computers, one, more than one? You can't ever
generalize performance from the report of one person. If the report is
based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then,
while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample. But I
don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation by circulating
messages that criticize JAWS in this way. I have no objection to the
message being sent to the list as part of a discussion. I object to
advocating that it be widely circulated.

And those who do believe in this strategy might
consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things
in NVDA to criticize.

Let's consider a few important shortcomings that
are especially important in employment situations.

You can't change how structures are interpreted in
NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it
can work with that imposed structure better. You can't create
frames. I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines
on the screen necessary to log in. I may have done other things as well to
have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a
command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and
without very excessive verbiage. You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has
to write a script. Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being
able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a
job.

Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles
proper critiques of what needs improvement. No one is served.

Great endorsement! I love this one!
Everyone please pass this message along!

Roger

On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E.
(UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy
and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste
system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college
and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us,
because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into
this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to
gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible.
I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that
builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA
as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what
helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture
reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something
highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that
proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the
imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found
that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats
the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes
over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA
froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is
plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need
for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator
full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not
have half the shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and
develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over
JAWS.

I don't prefer JAWS over NVDA. I objected to
your pass it along widely statement and I explained why. It has nothing to
do with whether you have your own opinions and express them on the list. I
gave specific reasons I don't think the message should be passed along widely; I
didn't object in the least to it being sent to or discussed on the list.
Please read my message again. I made no general statements about people
expressing opinions nor did I make any general statements about which
screen-reader is better. I discussed NVDA shortcomings in one specific
context, employment. I did so because NVDA is very good at meeting a lot
of peoples' needs and I didn't generalize.

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but
I have to ask.Since when did human society degrade to such a point that
people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.I happen to agree with
Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS. THat is not to say JAWS is a
bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.Jean, it appears that you prefer
JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to
disagree?"

Please read my message again. You will see
that I attributed no such motives to you nor did I say you said that JAWS
crashed the first time. What I objected to was a message in response to
yours that said that your message should be passed along by everyone. I
then gave some reasons I think it shouldn't. I then explicitly stated that
I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as a part of
discussion. But I don't think it is suitable to be used to promote
NVDA. I don't believe that you were
malicious or were against me or the group. what I objected to was the pass
it along widely request and I gave my reasons but I didn't object to your
message being sent to or discussed on list.

As far as JAWS crashing, you said:

JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over
the simplest things. I didn't object to the heavyweight description.
It may be much mor heavyweight, as you say. I personally am not sure if
that matters a lot on modern fast machines but I didn't object to that.
But saying it crashes over the simplist things can very easily be interpreted as
that it crashes a lot since the simplist things may well be encountered very
often. I'm not saying that was your meaning, I'm saying that is a very
easy way to interpret what you said. And that was one of my reasons for
objecting to the pass it along request because, while that is your experience, I
don't know if it is generally true.

Gene, firstly, I did not mean
anything malicious toward the group or you. Secondly, my entire sentence about
crashing was taken out of context. I did not mean to imply that JAWS crashed the
first time I used it. I do not generalize on every system…

You are right! I am not
saying you are wrong about JAWS, OK? JAWS lets you create custom labels and
other things NVDA does not. I also agree with you on using JAWS on a VPN. I am
not against you or the group on anything! Calm down! Yes, JAWS will let you
create frames. Yes, JAWS will let you create graphics labels and other
stuff.

This was nothing intended for
the group to get upset about. I definitely didn’t mean anything in a bad
way.

I am not convinced that
this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a
generalization. It is one person's experience on how many computers, one,
more than one? You can't ever generalize performance from the report of
one person. If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or
four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a
very small sample. But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's
reputation by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this
way. I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of
a discussion. I object to advocating that it be widely
circulated.

And those who do
believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or
another product can find things in NVDA to criticize.

Let's consider a few
important shortcomings that are especially important in employment
situations.

You can't change how
structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a
list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure
better. You can't create frames. I once set up JAWS for someone
using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in. I
may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the
screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program
she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage. You
can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script. Research It was
discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like
read a proprietary data base used at a job.

Loyalty to NVDA is not
productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement. No
one is served.

Great endorsement! I love this one! Everyone
please pass this message along!

Roger

On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
wrote:

Hello,

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy
and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste
system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college
and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us,
because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into
this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to
gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible.
I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that
builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA
as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what
helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture
reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something
highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that
proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the
imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found
that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats
the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes
over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA
froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is
plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need
for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator
full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not
have half the shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and
develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over
JAWS.

I think there exists a common misunderstanding about being grateful vs being satisfied. If I were unable to walk and someone took me halfway to my destination, I would certainly be grateful but at the same time still dissatisfied. It's a perfectly normal and valid state to be in.

Also, expecting gratitude is an invalid standpoint. Gratitude is an emotion, and we are not generally in control over how we feel. It's the same as saying "I expect you not to be thirsty" or "I expect you to love me now."

But if people are so concerned with gratitude that
they don't speak their mind about what needs improvement, no one is being
served. JAWS is still better in a lot of employment situations and a few
years ago, even one or two of the main developers said this. Since then,
NVDA has become more capable in employment situations but it still has serious
drawbacks in a lot of cases.

I can appreciate NVDA and the work that went into
it but that has nothing to do with whether I or others should speak freely about
what needs improvement.

Historically, blind people have been expected to be
grateful. I appreciate things but I don't like the word grateful It
smaks of the days of rampant paternalism when blind people were expected to be
little better than charity cases. As I said, I can appreciate something
like NVDA but grateful is a different word with different and very unfavorable
connotations for what it means to be a blind person in modern times.

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and
paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste
system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college
and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us,
because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into
this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to
gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I
work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds
all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my
primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped
me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference
implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly
proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary
screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of
proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports
Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I
down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest
things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is
plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need
for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator
full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have
half the shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and
develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over
JAWS.

Gene,
you are very correct that unlabeled graphics are skipped, no
matter what navigation keys you choose. It is a serious
problem. Suppose I am taking online training at work, and I
have to be able to click the unlabeled graphic, and not have
NVDA skip it. Suppose I know what the unlabeled graphic is,
by text above or below it, and I do not have a sighted
person available to click it for me. This comes up in the
workplace all the time. How can we submit feedback to the
developers on this? Thanks.

If
graphics aren't labeled, then, of course, you may have a
hard time determining what graphic to click. But the
question, as posed, assumes that. Can NVDA be made to
announce all graphics? I don't think it does now. If
there is a graphic without any text, I don't think it
announces it and there is no setting I know of to adjust
the level of graphic announcement. JAWS has such a
setting and you were discussing that in your comparison of
NVDA and JAWS. If I am correct that there is no setting
in NVDA for this, this is another way in which NVDA isn't
as user definable as JAWS where it should be. This may be
a serious problem on a site where, to take an action a
graphic needs to be clicked. It might mean having to
click it with the simulated mouse but to do that, it must
be announced as you move through the page so you can move
to it and then move the mouse to it.

You
may need sighted help to know which graphic to click but
as far as I know, NVDA doesn't read unlabeled graphics on
web pages and moving character by character doesn't read
them either. As far as I know, they are skipped as though
they don't exist.

I don't think
you can do much about idiotic web site design. I think you
might be able to in Jaws, though it is often a trial and error
thing as
unless you have sighted help to identify non marked controls
you are
stuffed. It might be worth writing to the site admins and
pointing out that
a little bit ofalt tagging would go a long way.
Brian

Hi, how do I get NVDA to identify all graphics on a web page,
including the
unlabeled ones, if I need to click one for example? Also,
which section of
the user guide explains this in further detail? Thanks.

If I want to keep the original format copied,
my approach is to simulate the way the visional person operates.
That is to simulate the mouse operation.
For example, I want to copy a table on a web page and want to keep
its format.
I will move to the beginning of the table and call the mouse and
lock the left mouse button.
Then move to the end of the table and call the mouse once again and
unlock the left mouse button.
Finally, to select copy from context menu, and this is done.
This practice comes from how I asked people who used the mouse to
copy it.
They said, hold down the left mouse button to pull the range you
want to select and then release the left button and select Copy.
Although a bit cumbersome, it guarantees the integrity of the
format.

Which is why I said to select the
entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste
it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it
there. The whole point of browse mode is to give you a
virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there
were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways
to make reading logical for blind readers.

Without browse mode, you can move
as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except
in edit fields.

The question is, when you select
using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears
in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?
Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained
either way. Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode
and select as you go. Copy to the clipboard and paste in a
program. Are the columns arranged as they should be or are
they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in
browse mode.

I would think other
structures are altered where advantageous to a blind
reader using Browse Mode as well.

When corresponding with
sighted people, it is often important to be able to
reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on
the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind
users.

JAWS gives the user a choice,
copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page, NVDA
doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if
NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly
capable screen-reader.

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining
formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

How
do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and
press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press
NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press
shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I
am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted
into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was
retained.

I was in the Google Chrome browser for that
testing cycle. I just did the same from Firefox for this
testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our
selection that's different.

I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back
to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to
start from. I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with
NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated. But if I
use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being
selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that
includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it
pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian -Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit,
Version 1803, Build 17134

A little
kindness from person to person is better than a vast love
for all humankind.

When did this start? Have you recently plugged ina usb headset or other sound device? Windows 10 is notorious for routing programs through devices and forgetting to put them back as they were.

I've never had that issue in Windows 7 at all, indeed its actually very good if you plug a sound box into the wrong usb, it finds it and installs the drivers, but 10? Well the term audio designed by an idiot comes to mind.Another reason I'm not using 10.If its not this then the previous message might be right.Brian

One thing that worries me about the way Microsoft are trying to develop narrator. The development is good, but they really do need to make it easier for third party readers to use what it uses. So often I hear, well Narrator can do it, but nothing else does. I suggest this is because Narrator has a lot more access to the innards of windows than a third party screenreader does, probably due to there being fewer security issues as its built in and can use hooking into things that would be a security risk if allowed outside.I have tried recent Narrator, and although it is than it used to be, it seems often a bit clumsy and slow compared to nvda.Brian

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing's frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

Oh I see, well they certainly seem to have the ability to tell folk stuff as every account I've ever used on their lists recently got the mail about the update to the privacy policies. Lets hope this is not them making changes that might affect accessibility.Brian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:10 PMSubject: [nvda] groups.io will be down for maintenance this evening, starting at 9PM Pacific Time (4AM Saturday 8/18 UTC), for about two hours.

The subject says it all, but I'll repeat it here in case it gets cut off by certain e-mail clients:

groups.io will be down for maintenance this evening, starting at 9PM Pacific Time (4AM Saturday 8/18 UTC), for about two hours.

There has been a banner message to this effect up all day on the web interface, but nothing has come across on traffic on the groups themselves, which leaves e-mail users in the dark.

You can still reply to messages, but all of it will be held in a queue during the maintenance period.--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

Do you think an anti virus is checking something and will not let things work until its happy? If you play a particular file does it always happen.Another thought. Do you have Jaws on this system?I notice that recent versions once again insert some kind of driver in the display chain, like in the old XP days. Ever since this happened my whole windows 7 machine boots up slower and can, on occasion seem to exhibit the symptoms you say. I did a reinstall of Jaws from an update yesterday and touch wood the issue has gone. It seems this driver is there whether you are running Jaws or not. I'm not a Jaws user myself but as has been said here, it often is a good idea to have several screenreaders.Brian

Hey folks. I'm sorry, this isn't directly an NVDA issue, but the listmoderators are often quite relaxed about letting things drift off onoccasion, and I'm not currently signed up to any forums where I can askdirectly, so I wondered if there might be someone here who has hadexperience with a similar issue.

I'm running Windows 10, 1803. I have the last version of winamp, 5.666, withthe patch designed for Windows 10.

Although I'm not certain these things are related, I feel like this actuallystarted with VLC. Some months back I downloaded the 64-bit version of VLC3.0. I was immediately impressed with how fast it loaded. Only a few secondsbetween hitting enter in file explorer and playing a video, and I thoughtthis was nice. However, seemingly a few weeks later, VlC was taking thirtyseconds or more to open. Recently they put out an update, which I installed,and VlC was back to loading fast again.

Now though, and I'm not absolutely certain when this started, but it wasrecent, Winamp, which I still use for audio playback, is taking a reallylong time to load! Much longer than VLC did, even when it was having itsweird issue. I estimate that whether I hit enter on a file in explorer, oruse the context menu to play a folder, or use the run box to open theprogramme directly, it takes about two minutes for the window to appearand/or audio to start playing. Weirdly, once or twice it seems like theaudio starts playing, but ther'es no window for several minutes, and duringthat time of coruse none of the Winamp controls work.

Any thoughts or suggestions as to what might be causing it? I have a feelingreinstalling might fix the issue, but I'd still like to know what might havecaused this to happen.

When you say nothing has changed are you sure of this, ie no updates to anything in the background like an anti virus program?I do not use Google tools so cannot say what might have happened, but I've had some very unlikely interactions in the past, so I just wondered if there was any way to tell. I think I'd have taken the machine back a day or so first to see if that fixed it.Having said all of that I still have not found out why, one day some months ago, nvda stopped reading dropbox preferences, internal log in browser and share panel.Sometimes windows does things that defy logic.Brian

I'll just say one more thing. Yes, I believe employers should give NVDA achance. I remember telling a rehabilitation counselor one time that if heand other counselors would encourage their clients to use NVDA, they wouldsave lots of money. Then the money they save could be used for things likemicrosoft word or things needed to do a job more efficiently.

I'll just say this.I do not understand why an employer would care what screen reader you use.So long as it doesn't interfere with their system, it should be the blindperson's choice which screen reader to use.I have JAWS installed, but rarely use it because NVDA serves my purposesjust fine.Not to mention, I love how NVDA let's you know when you have a spellingerror while typing. JAWS will not do that. It will only tell you which wordis misspelled if you read word by word.What I'm trying to say is I wish employers would give it a chance beforemaking a judgment.Chris

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We allhave the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jawsfor years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needsvery well.

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have toask.Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot havedifferent viewpoints on issues.I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS. THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't wejust agree to disagree?"

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