I apologize if this has been answered already, but I'm clueless and a quick search didn't turn anything up. The tracklisting of Adore Demos II (link) is interesting for two reasons.

1. Somehow, it manages to dodge anything that wound up on Adore or Machina. Adore Demos I and the Machina Acoustic Demos are both full of tracks that wound up on their respective albums, but this one is exclusively an "outtakes" tape. We've never had a demo tape with no album tracks on it.

2. Adore Demos I is obviously pre-Adore, because it *******s early versions of For Martha, Dusty+Pete, etc. And I don't think anyone will argue if I say the Machina Acoustic Demos are obviously post-Adore. However, Adore Demos II has tracks from both. How does a tape wind up with recordings from both time periods?

I'm not trying to ask "how is this leaking out?", because that doesn't really matter and I understand if it needs to stay under wraps. I'm asking "what IS this tape?" (If the two questions are inseparable, then I apologize). I guess I'm wondering if BC made this tape, and if so - When? Why?

If nobody knows, then let's start speculating. I want to hear theories.

someone ( i think mainly davin?) presumed it to be an adore era tape when we first started getting the first leaks, back in feb.

i think it's much more likely to be a judas o demo tape, a mix billy made anytime between 99 and 01 of things to put on judas o. i think it's definatley sourced from different studio sessions, and the songs that we've heard and were previously released to me sound like identical mixes, just worse quality transfers / lineage. some people still claim they are different mixes, as the original leaker (sp457?) was asking us to listen for differences as (s)he believed them to be alternate mixes.

edit - i really can't be fucked finding the thread that had that discussion in it now, but i will in a few days if no-one else does. (i hope someone else does...)

My theory #1:
Billy made this tape as soon as he got home from the Adore tour to document his ideas for the next album. He *******d some Adore outtakes because he was thinking about reviving some of them. Of these 16, only 2 went on to be rerecorded as far as we know: LMGTWTY and Saturnine. Perhaps Billy ditched most of these when Jimmy got back in the band, because he wanted a fresh set of songs to work with as a full band. The Machina Acoustic Demos were recorded a couple of months later.

My theory #2:
Billy made this tape post-Machina to have all of the Adore/Machina outtakes in one place (for possible consideration on a release like Judas O?). I like this theory, but it doesn't explain why the tape doesn't have songs like Sparrow. Perhaps this was only one tape in a set? In '95, Billy sent a set of tapes to the LOC called "A Collection of Demos for Billy Corgan", and it looks like there was one tape for each year from '88-94. Assuming Billy continued making tapes like this after '95, the "Adore Demos II" could be Billy's outtakes tape for 1998 - which would explain why there are tracks from the beginning of the year (Adore outtakes) and end of the year (MAD stuff). It also explains why there are no tracks that wound up on albums.

theory #1 is what i've been assuming. though admittedly, keeping the end results in mind seems to make LMGTWTY and saturnine seemingly very odd strange choices from the proposed lot to retool later with full band.

wasn't lover first played by billy on acoustic after the album came out? Didn't he mention he had written that song relatively close to the time he played it? i know there's a show when he did but im not sure about the last part of what i just said, does anyone have the show?

my theory: billy just put all the songs on this tape that hadn't been submitted to the library of congress yet. these songs weren't necessarily recorded at the same time. they just weren't in the loc yet. some are adore demos, others can be considered machina demos.

someone ( i think mainly davin?) presumed it to be an adore era tape when we first started getting the first leaks, back in feb.

i think it's much more likely to be a judas o demo tape, a mix billy made anytime between 99 and 01 of things to put on judas o. i think it's definatley sourced from different studio sessions, and the songs that we've heard and were previously released to me sound like identical mixes, just worse quality transfers / lineage. some people still claim they are different mixes, as the original leaker (sp457?) was asking us to listen for differences as (s)he believed them to be alternate mixes.

edit - i really can't be fucked finding the thread that had that discussion in it now, but i will in a few days if no-one else does. (i hope someone else does...)

its quite simple really.

it was presumed to be adore era becuase (a) it shared a lot of tracks with Adore Demos I and (b) it was submitted to the LOC in 1998 according to the catalog date.

whether or not machina songs were "ready for demo" in 1998 is up for debate (knowing how billy has often re-used riffs and songs often written earlier), however if the band was still touring and jimmy was not back yet, i have hard time classifying them as machina-era.

also the style of songs, etc. (which granted is a more subjective opinion) also seem to fit, but thats only worth consideration after you realize a & b above.

My theory #1:
Billy made this tape as soon as he got home from the Adore tour to document his ideas for the next album. He *******d some Adore outtakes because he was thinking about reviving some of them. Of these 16, only 2 went on to be rerecorded as far as we know: LMGTWTY and Saturnine. Perhaps Billy ditched most of these when Jimmy got back in the band, because he wanted a fresh set of songs to work with as a full band. The Machina Acoustic Demos were recorded a couple of months later.

My theory #2:
Billy made this tape post-Machina to have all of the Adore/Machina outtakes in one place (for possible consideration on a release like Judas O?). I like this theory, but it doesn't explain why the tape doesn't have songs like Sparrow. Perhaps this was only one tape in a set? In '95, Billy sent a set of tapes to the LOC called "A Collection of Demos for Billy Corgan", and it looks like there was one tape for each year from '88-94. Assuming Billy continued making tapes like this after '95, the "Adore Demos II" could be Billy's outtakes tape for 1998 - which would explain why there are tracks from the beginning of the year (Adore outtakes) and end of the year (MAD stuff). It also explains why there are no tracks that wound up on albums.

theory #2 could fit, especially with the 1998 date...however i still think there is a distinct style in the song-writing that just "feels" like adore to me. themes, vocal style, etc.

maybe i'll try to ask him at the Fillmore! however, i'm not sure how to get a satisfying answer without asking multiple questions...and he'll probably just answer one.

theory #2 could fit, especially with the 1998 date...however i still think there is a distinct style in the song-writing that just "feels" like adore to me. themes, vocal style, etc.

maybe i'll try to ask him at the Fillmore! however, i'm not sure how to get a satisfying answer without asking multiple questions...and he'll probably just answer one.

I say go for it, and ask multiple questions if you have to.

A friend of mine was at the last show at the Orange Peel and he said that when Billy came out to talk to people after the show that no one knew what to say, so after standing around for a while being awkward, Billy said, "well, gotta go". Haha. So I'm sure it'll be good to at least to have something to talk about.

wasn't lover first played by billy on acoustic after the album came out? Didn't he mention he had written that song relatively close to the time he played it? i know there's a show when he did but im not sure about the last part of what i just said, does anyone have the show?

It was first played on 12/12/98, but I'm pretty sure he didn't say anything about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davin

(b) it was submitted to the LOC in 1998 according to the catalog date.

I can't find it in the LOC - probably because searching sucks (William Corgan, William P Corgan, William F Corgan, etc.). Do you happen to have the catalog number or exact date of submission? "1998" is too vague to figure anything out.

someone ( i think mainly davin?) presumed it to be an adore era tape when we first started getting the first leaks, back in feb.

i think it's much more likely to be a judas o demo tape, a mix billy made anytime between 99 and 01 of things to put on judas o. i think it's definatley sourced from different studio sessions, and the songs that we've heard and were previously released to me sound like identical mixes, just worse quality transfers / lineage. some people still claim they are different mixes, as the original leaker (sp457?) was asking us to listen for differences as (s)he believed them to be alternate mixes.

edit - i really can't be fucked finding the thread that had that discussion in it now, but i will in a few days if no-one else does. (i hope someone else does...)

It was first played on 12/12/98, but I'm pretty sure he didn't say anything about it.

I can't find it in the LOC - probably because searching sucks (William Corgan, William P Corgan, William F Corgan, etc.). Do you happen to have the catalog number or exact date of submission? "1998" is too vague to figure anything out.

all i remember is it had the song Lover listed (among others) and said 1998. i'm 99% sure i posted it here before....cuz yea, that search engine is a POS.