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fullymodo writes "Alaska Airlines has become the first major US airline to hop on board the paperless bandwagon. While it's not quite ready to ditch paper navigation charts just yet (though that is under consideration), the airline has announced that it will be replacing its traditional flight manuals with iPads, which will be loaded up with the GoodReader app and PDFs of 41 different manuals and other materials.' So explain why I have to shut off my non-wi-fi-capable ebook reader during take-off and landing?"

So explain why I have to shut off my non-wi-fi-capable ebook reader during take-off and landing?

If the plane has a bird strike and has to ditch in the Hudson, they don't want you to miss announcements because you're busy flinging Angry Birds. It's not about the electronics, it's about them having your attention during the two parts of flight where all the crashes happen.

If the plane has a bird strike and has to ditch in the Hudson, they don't want you to miss announcements because you're busy flinging Angry Birds. It's not about the electronics, it's about them having your attention during the two parts of flight where all the crashes happen.

Exactly. If we already have people foolish enough to text and email on their blackberrys WHILE they're driving and that don't see what the problem is, imagine how attentive they would be when they're sitting in an armchair in 1st business class.

So explain why I have to shut off my non-wi-fi-capable ebook reader during take-off and landing?

Because computers have internal electronics that generate electric currents in the GHz range, and it is not impossible that these electrical currents could radiate enough energy to interfere with airplane electronic and navigation systems.

Presumably they have tested the particular devices that the pilots are using, and verified that these particular devices don't interfere. If they haven't tested your particular device, then they don't know that it won't interfere. Probably it won't. They don't know that for sure.

And, also, how do they know that it doesn't have wifi? Are they supposed to inspect all electronic devices on boarding? (Are you willing to be charged extra to pay for a person to do that?)

This is, undoubtably, absurdly over cautious. However, the penalties for failure are very large, and the cost for being overcautious (in the form of inconvenience) is paid by you, not by them.

The definition of the various electronics classes doesn't have much to do with electromagnetic radiation. They primarily are related to the physical design of the gear and how it's mechanically interfaced with the aircraft.

Class 1: Anything commercial off-the-shelf and not purpose-built for the plane is Class 1 and must be stowed during takeoff and landing, because they're loose equipment and can become a hazard in turbulence. (Even these iPads have to be put away during takeoff and landing.

Class 2: Can be off-the-shelf or purpose built, but it has to be bolted down using a certified mounting or a kneeboard. You don't have to stow a class 2 during takeoff and landing.

Class 3: Installed in the plane, subject to airworthiness certification and the hardware has to be designed for the purpose. Only class 3 EFB gear has to be tested for radio emissions.

My friend's Dad was an engineer at Boeing and tested exactly this. Beyond old planes (DC-9 and older), electronics were not a problem, as everything was shielded enough not to interfere. But people have a hard time understanding "you can do it on this plane, but not on that one" if they are used to a behavior.

Cell phones are a problem for the cell towers, not the planes. The number of handoffs that happen on calls from the air is pretty bad.

Because computers have internal electronics that generate electric currents in the GHz range, and it is not impossible that these electrical currents could radiate enough energy to interfere with airplane electronic and navigation systems.

It's not absurdly over cautions to restrict unknown electronics that might cause interference. Even the local oscillator in an simple old-fashioned analog tuned F.M. broadcast radio can affect some communications. Digital gear is worse. There are pulses at many different rates far below microwave frequencies in digital gear, and because they are pulses and not sinusoidal waveforms, they're rich in harmonics. The noise generated extends down even to relatively low frequencies due to main power supply inv

Allow me to simplify what you said. These aircraft are built to crash into the ground with the simplest of provocation. Consumer RF is one example, butterfly farts are another. Don't even think about bringing a butterfly aboard an A380.

And yet headphones were OK on flights for a long, long time. The ban on electronics is only about 20 years old (except for radios, which have been forbidden for ages). Lots of flyers had Walkmans (Walkmen?) with them in the 80s.

Not that new, really. The FM radio rules came out in 1961, which was the same year that FM acquired the ability to broadcast stereo, about 5 years after the transistor radio started to become popular, and still quite a bit before the popularity of FM broadcasting. The personal-electronics rules weren't issued - as far as I can discover - until late 1993, or 13 years after the introduction of the Walkman to the US.

Transistor radios weren't very large; a Sony TR-63 from 1958 would easily fit in a jacket pocket, so I'm not sure I'd call it "lugging". My point, though was that the technology was banned almost as soon as it became available, not a decade later.

They don't ban books, or conversations, or any number of other reasons we might ignore those announcements. Also, even if this were the case, it's a bit depressing that the only way they can make this happen is by lying to us on every single flight.

None of those things can entail headphones or bright colors -- they don't want to get into a whole litany about "you can use electronic devices without headphones, but only ebook readers and only if they don't play music, and no electronic games, but it IS okay to read a book or sleep because we have studies that show that it's easier to wake someone up than to get them to put down a videogame." Just easier to say "put away electronics."

It depends. Mytthbusters found that in the 800-900 MHz range it can interfere with unshielded instruments in older aircraft. Lets not forget there are some aging 747s out there.

Now, in this case the pilots can see if there is a problem. Though isn't there also a way to turn off the wifi and 3G at the same time like with the Kindle? I know from looking it up you can turn off the 3G to have it go to WiFi, but I couldn't find anything saying the iPad would do both (though i think it would to allow for battery

Seems to me that would be a priority to fix, though. I mean, if I'm a terrorist, and I know certain frequencies screw up the pilots' instruments or communication, and those are allowed on the plane anyway...

Or, hey, if I'm just a disgruntled passenger.

Let's not forget that they give us the same story on planes which have built-in wifi. Really, the technology is there to be able to handle this safely. I honestly don't see a good reason for this policy anymore.

If the plane has a bird strike and has to ditch in the Hudson, they don't want you to miss announcements because you're busy flinging Angry Birds. It's not about the electronics, it's about them having your attention during the two parts of flight where all the crashes happen.

As someone whose father was a pilot, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard; if something happens that is important enough, trust me, you'll notice, big time. Foreign Object Damage, for example, if a blade lets loose from the je

Have you ever flown on a turbulent flight? When the plane starts dropping precipitously, you know it.

It's not as though anything you'll do prior to the crash is going to help you, except wearing a seatbelt (which you'd be doing anyway). Still, assuming that you've eclipsed that mark, humans are still cooperative enough that the person next to you might just poke you on the shoulder and notify you that, hey, didn't you notice the plane has lost a lot of altitude really fast? And the oxygen mask dropping in

There is also a good reason not to have cell phones and 3G-enabled devices on, though. At high enough altitudes, your uninterrupted signal can connect to multiple towers, thus hogging up many more than you would on the ground.

If you do actually get Lufthansa when you book it. Damn Star Alliance shit put me on a United cattle wagon on my last transatlantic flight. That's like booking first class and getting put into the cargo hold instead.

So explain why I have to shut off my non-wi-fi-capable ebook reader during take-off and landing?

One, I'm sure they tested that model of iPad thoroughly in their cockpit to make sure it didn't interfere with anything. They also know they weren't modified an any way that could generate additional RF. They didn't test your gadget, and they don't want to take any chances.

Two, people are far more willing to accept small risks when there's a tangible benefit. Switching to iPads saves weight, and thus money. Letting you use your device during take-off and landing doesn't benefit them at all.

Well, it infringes on his rugged individualism. After all, getting told to do something for the safety of the majority and to stop something that benefits only him would be SOCIALISM. Yes, comrade, SOCIALISM. We do not want that around here, do we?

That model? The same exact model I have? The same one made by the thousands at Foxconn? I doubt it has any extra shielding or anything.

Airlines need to revise their rules. I dont see why I cant have an ebook on during take off and landing. And by "during" I mean 35 minutes before landing. Heck I'm okay for 5 or so minutes, but once it couldnt use it for an hour. That's also a problem.

You have to turn off your non-wifi ebook reader because when the flight attendants are getting things going, "turn off all portable electronic devices" is a lot easier and faster than learning to tell which are and which aren't, and checking that those passengers who are still poking a screen are using something non-wifi enabled.

And really, it's not that big a hardship to turn off your device for ten minutes during takeoff.

Military pilots are required to write, word for word, the emergency procedures for their aircraft. Yes, the manuals and checklists are still there, but it's nice knowing that you already have it committed to memory.

Actually, during emergencies they are using a quick reference manual on how to get the plane down safely.

(Although quick is a relative term, they are meant for planes at altitude, take the one ditched on the Potomac, they only managed a few checkpoints before they had to ditch the plane.)

Having an iPad for looking up might be good, my personal experience with the iPad is it isn't doing what I want it to do - the advantage of a book with paper in it is you aren't risking a software crash.

You don’t need plates and charts during takeoff and landing. During those periods you should already know exactly where you are and what you’re doing, and tower will provide any extra advice you need. Paper would be stowed at the same time to keep it from bouncing around the cockpit, so stowing the iPad isn’t really any different. Also since it’s a class 1 electronic device it will be turned off during those two critical periods as well. It’s already legal for IFR general aviat

In a takeoff or landing accident, you don't have time to look things up in the manual. An all-engines-out accident at 40,000 ft, you've got nearly a full minute, going straight down. Gliding, potentially a full hour. And that's in what's very close to a worst-case scenario. In a more common accident, such as a malfunction in one engine, you could theoretically continue without fixing it (redundant systems), but you still want to try to fix it, or at least make sure it's not a symptom of something else. So i

Ewww. I don't know what's in a flight manual, but I tried sticking a Studer A807 service manual on a Kindle once. It's unusable, at least for the circuit diagrams. No way to pan it properly when you're zoomed in, and the display is too small to read the component values when you aren't.

Many private pilots use Kindle DX for their approach plates - the PDF forms are available for free from the FAA. Much better than printing them off or using the bag of thick books that have to be replaced every 56 days. The format of the approach plate is perfect for the DX, who's screen is only slightly bigger than the real plate.

An eBook reader makes much more sense than iPADs or any sort of LCD/LED screen device for many reasons; but not the Kindle and its wireless junk.

The Chinese Hanlin and similar devices, accept open formats and don't have any wireless connectivity. Being true eReaders, they don't spend energy showing content in the screen, only changing it. They also have no backlight so they must be used just like printed paper, with a source of light.

Such an eReader could be reliably used for running checklists or having pl

And paper books are never out of date, missing pages and take up such a small volume.

As for batteries running out I bet there will be a charger installed in the cockpit. If that charger dies that probably means the pilot has no electricity at all and reading a manual is the least of his concerns.

Because if there is a crash, your handheld device is going to turn into a flying projectile and womp someone else in the back of the head. In fact, FAA regulations state that all items must be stowed at takeoff and landing for this precise reason -- just because it's handheld now doesn't mean you'll continue to hold on to it.

iPads have screens that can break. I hope this is a suppliment, rather than outright removal of the paper copies. I'm not *that* old, but I still feel that I could look up "stuck aileron" in the glossary and then find the correct page in the manual faster than I could type those words in on the touchscreen and wait for it to return the results. Especially when we're losing 5000ft of altitude per minute, everyone is panicing, and the whole plane is shaking.

I'm not *that* old, but I still feel that I could look up "stuck aileron" in the glossary and then find the correct page in the manual faster than I could type those words in on the touchscreen and wait for it to return the results.

Really? I just tested it -- I timed how long it took me to google "stuck aileron" on my iPhone (starting with the iPhone in screen-off mode). I had results in 14 seconds (including the time it took to switch to my computer to start and stop the timer, and the time it took to fetch the data over Wifi).

I suppose someone who was really familiar with a paper manual might be able to beat that -- but only if they knew in advance roughly where the page they were looking for was. If they had to first find the gl

You like apple? fine, but historically they are constantly breaking compatibility with themselves which makes it hard for serious people who want a bit more of a long term investment than a buzz-headline.

I see stories like this and think, hunh here is some tard tossing a pile of money down a proprietary hole for what? to look "cool"? Thanks I know where not to waste my money.

Seriously this is retarded. Doesn't anyone remember how some electronic devices occasionally lock up or outright refuse to boot, and features stop working (alarm clock, Zune brick for a day), due to stupid programming errors concerning time and dates?

IMHO, sure, have tablet PC for in-flight data -- but also have the critical stuff as a paper backup, just incase a retarded developer decides to write their own time/date algorithms instead of using the standard libs (or accidentally creates some other time

AC 102-76A defines the types and classes of EFB hardware and applications. Any portable electronic device not using a mounting system, and using only certified power interfaces (like the standard Cigar lighter port) is a candidate for being Class I hardware. The airline must show that it is properly stowed for take-off and landing, and must have documentation showing that they have tested the device for interference to the point where they would allow passengers to use the device.

I'm really uncomfortable with this, being as the iPad is a consumer-grade device built as cheaply as possible with it's #1 function being generating profit for Apple, and I don't think the device was designed with critical use in mind. It's made to be *just* reliable and durable enough that the warranty return rate isn't too high, and no more. (If I were Apple I'd be really uncomfortable with people using them for anything more than entertainment! for liability purposes!)

It's called safety paranoia. And the most paranoid people always win the argument. There are lots of examples. According to Timothy Taylor (Economist at Standford) the law requiring child proof containers for drugs cost ~$30 million to implement yet had no affect on the number of emergency room admissions for child overdoses. The safety lobbyists are a formidable group who make a living from sitting around all day coming up with what-if scenarios and they especially love airline safety because it plays to p

EMI from electronic devices do affect navigational systems. If you want a demo of this in your house, put your iPad next to a magnetic compass and watch it swing.

In the little Cessna that I fly, my portable GPS will cause the compass to be off by as much as 3-4 degrees.

I know this is much different than commercial jetliners -- I don't claim to know how commercial jet navigational systems are built. I do know that most of the FAA regulations (such as turning off portable electronic devices) are typic

So explain why I have to shut off my non-wi-fi-capable ebook reader during take-off and landing?

Because it's easier to tell people to turn off *all* electronics than it is to read out a detailed list of what can remain on and what must be switched off. It's also much easier to go down the aisle and just say "switch that off" that it is to figger out what "it" is an whether or not it can remain on...

the wiring of aircraft can't be gutted and replaced with proper shielded wiring... why it isn't all digital with checksums.. This is 1970's technology at the latest. Or wait maybe we could upgrade to 1980 tech such as fiber optics...

...and the pilots can keep it updated without paying hundreds of dollars a year in subscription fees to Jeppesen...

It is unlikely that any FAA requirement for flight pubs can be fulfilled by random downloads from the Interwebs. Alaska is almost certainly contracting with Jeppesen for a lot of their material, as Jeppesen is an accepted and RELIABLE source.

I can see the ads now : "Meet local girls in Pacific Ocean, right now." (shamelessly ripped off from the ever relevant xkcd [xkcd.com])

Anyway your argument is false for a couple of reasons:- this is Apple, not Google. Apple isn't an advertising company and doesn't send home your browsing behavior AFAIK.- they need not give the iPads access to the internet.- they can block anything they don't want to leave the internal network using a firewall, which they should already be doing.

Checklists and procedures are categorized by urgency. The essential stuff, like the mentioned engine restart, is memorized and gets trained in the simulator regularly. There is a whole lot of non-critical shit though, where you would want to pull out the manual before doing it. Failure of one of a triple-redundant hydraulic pump, stuff like that. You still gotta work a checklist/workflow after that, and for this, you pull the manual.

I'm assuming they had at least 2 physical copies of the procedure manuals on board before in case someone spilled coffee on one or something. Now they can replace 1 with an easier to use digital version and keep the paper backup copy in the supply closet.

Navigation charts are bigger and more detailed than what could fit on a single screen, so scrolling is necessary anyway. The navigation plates (terminal procedures, approach, departure, etc.) can fit all on a screen and for the US all of them are already available as PDFs. Here’s an example iPad app that Googling produced: http://www.ipadappsdude.com/plates-chart-viewer-navigation/ [ipadappsdude.com]

Interesting that you chose to single out Sarah Palin, the "corrupt politician". I'm not Palin supporter, but couldn't you have picked at least a practicing politician, or one that is at least working with the FAA or the NTSB? You know, someone it's feasible they could have paid off to get favorable treatment? If you pay off Palin, you might get some nice comments at a rally, but no actions.

To your answers to #1 and 2... I could bring the latest Stephen King 1000+ page hard cover novel, which weighs significantly more than a Kindle, and read it through the whole safety briefing, take off, climb to 10,000 ft, yet if I wanted to do the same with a Kindle, I'd be branded a terrorist.