Promdates wrote:The gearing is essentially the same. 25s do get 2.5x the drops, but they also have 2.5x the number of players in the raid. Can't tell you the number of times we've seen 2-3 of the same item that no one needs/wants. They don't want 25s to die off, I'm not sure if you've noticed is 100% happening currently. Why raid 25 when you can do less work and raid 10. So they want to give people a reason to do 25s again, otherwise no one will be doing it by the next expac. Chances of a 25 going to 10, decently high. Chances of that same 10 going back to 25... not at all.

I believe it takes an average of 9 weeks to get full gear set in 25man raiding and 20 weeks in a 10man raid.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

change sanctity of battle to convert all haste to avoidance (either dodge or parry), gc into a proc based on avoidance like theck had suggested, reduce the buff duration of sotr but reduce its power (like I had said earlier)

Why would you want to convert haste to avoidance? Either you've just buffed haste more, or you're replacing the haste effect with avoidance, at which point it would be easier to just eliminate Sanctity of Battle.

I don't think there's very much leeway on SotR's duration. Reducing the duration would make it much harder to use. Increasing the duration won't happen as long as we have Sanctity of Battle. And if we lose SoB, then the duration doesn't really need to be tweaked anyway.

It could be worth flipping on its head, though, and having avoidance rating grant us a % of its value as haste. GC did say that the goal was to be neutral to survival, and that would definitely be a survival buff, but it'd definitely raise avoidance's relative value to haste.

If changes were made to make avoidance more desirable than haste, all the current paladins with haste gear are left with less-than-desirable setups, which they want to avoid. If in doing that they made haste convert to avoidance, then the haste gear people have would still be decent. Of course you'd have to make haste not as good as pure avoidance, but 80-90% would allow all but the bleeding edge to keep their current gear and replace it as new 5.2 stuff drops instead of trying to replace it all before 5.2 hits.

Change the DR coefficient for paladins (don't they already have separate ones per class) so that avoidance ratings are simply worth more. Makes them automatically more useful.

Then, change SoB to 50% of your haste, but allow spell haste to alter the cooldowns too (10% SoI, 5% raid buff). Would lessen the value of haste on gear, without making us feel like we just got "nerfed".

Let Execution Sentence and Hammer of Light GCD scale with haste.

Make Consecrate's damage ticks scale with haste and not just the cooldown of the spell so that we don't lose ticks when re-casting, or allow more than one Consecrate AoE to be active at any one time. Move the final tick to the "front" of the spell duration, so that it ticks immediately on cast and not 1-2 seconds later.

As for making avoidance more "visceral", perhaps let dodges and parries increase the damage reduction of ShoR by 5%, stacking up to 3 times. Buff has no duration, but expires if we drop combat. Or give avoidance a chance to grant Holy Power.

theckhd wrote:Why would you want to convert haste to avoidance? Either you've just buffed haste more, or you're replacing the haste effect with avoidance, at which point it would be easier to just eliminate Sanctity of Battle.

I don't think there's very much leeway on SotR's duration. Reducing the duration would make it much harder to use. Increasing the duration won't happen as long as we have Sanctity of Battle. And if we lose SoB, then the duration doesn't really need to be tweaked anyway.

What I was trying to say is that haste does not give us haste. SoB just convert haste into avoidance just to make sure whatever gear we have with haste does not goes entirely to waste.

I'm not sure that's better than just announcing that we'll lose Sanctity of Battle in 5.3 and living with it for now. If we know that SoB is going away, we won't pick up haste gear in 5.2, and we'll naturally transition without needing an awkward haste->avoidance conversion.

Though again, I don't think they actually want to get rid of SoB, otherwise they'd probably have mentioned it. It's the more obvious solution. Nerfing SotR is going one step down the chain, and there's no reason to do that unless they want to keep SoB.

Fetzie wrote:Change the DR coefficient for paladins (don't they already have separate ones per class) so that avoidance ratings are simply worth more. Makes them automatically more useful.

They do have different coefficients per class.

Fetzie wrote:Then, change SoB to 50% of your haste, but allow spell haste to alter the cooldowns too (10% SoI, 5% raid buff). Would lessen the value of haste on gear, without making us feel like we just got "nerfed".

That seems... backwards. Nerf the SoB conversion to 50%, but then buff it by using spell haste (which is regularly 3-5x as high as melee haste). That's a net buff to haste, and will make it more valuable on gear, not less. Also remember that they switched it from spell haste to melee haste because of spell haste debuffs in PvP. They distinctly don't want it to operate on spell haste for that reason.

It would make more sense to keep it on melee haste and just set the conversion to whatever nerf level is appropriate. I.e. 80% of melee haste, 75% of melee haste, etc.

They could, but why? That wouldn't really have an appreciable effect on DPS given the long cooldowns, and it's not really a problem as-is. No sense fixing what isn't broke.

Fetzie wrote:Make Consecrate's damage ticks scale with haste and not just the cooldown of the spell so that we don't lose ticks when re-casting, or allow more than one Consecrate AoE to be active at any one time. Move the final tick to the "front" of the spell duration, so that it ticks immediately on cast and not 1-2 seconds later.

It already does scale with haste in a way. Testing on live with 8.49% melee haste (8.3-second Cons cooldown):

8 ticks, then 8 ticks, then 11 ticks. Total of 27. It seems like it's at least partially additive (though testing at higher haste values would let us confirm that with greater certainty).

We generally don't cast it on cooldown except in AoE situations, so it's unlikely that we're going to string more than 3 in a row without at least a GCD of pushback anyway. So the fact that the ticks don't scale exactly with haste isn't that important.

theckhd wrote:I'm not sure that's better than just announcing that we'll lose Sanctity of Battle in 5.3 and living with it for now. If we know that SoB is going away, we won't pick up haste gear in 5.2, and we'll naturally transition without needing an awkward haste->avoidance conversion.

Though again, I don't think they actually want to get rid of SoB, otherwise they'd probably have mentioned it. It's the more obvious solution. Nerfing SotR is going one step down the chain, and there's no reason to do that unless they want to keep SoB.

The reason why sob would convert haste to avoidance is to soften the blow that haste would not give us haste anymore, and thus make the gearing transition from heavy haste to proper tanking gear.

I am in the camp of having no haste, reduce the power of sotr, but increase its duration - and make gc give us profs from avoidance

The reason why sob would convert haste to avoidance is to soften the blow that haste would not give us haste anymore, and thus make the gearing transition from heavy haste to proper tanking gear.

Having a permanent change that tries to do that for a 3-week period is just a bit silly though. Replacing your gear in 5.2 is going to be near-instantaneous, and you have the complete side effect where Haste is STILL valuable enough that people will use it as a hedge-tradeoff if say, a piece of gear has enough Mastery to make it better to use Haste/Mastery over Dodge/Parry, AND it destroys the thing they've already said they want to preserve (the "fun" aspect of Haste). AND it has repercussions down the line because of a change made to a situation trying to become irrelevant in a short timespan.

The reason why sob would convert haste to avoidance is to soften the blow that haste would not give us haste anymore, and thus make the gearing transition from heavy haste to proper tanking gear.

Having a permanent change that tries to do that for a 3-week period is just a bit silly though. Replacing your gear in 5.2 is going to be near-instantaneous, and you have the complete side effect where Haste is STILL valuable enough that people will use it as a hedge-tradeoff if say, a piece of gear has enough Mastery to make it better to use Haste/Mastery over Dodge/Parry, AND it destroys the thing they've already said they want to preserve (the "fun" aspect of Haste). AND it has repercussions down the line because of a change made to a situation trying to become irrelevant in a short timespan.

It's a lose-lose call to do it that way.

The are handing out free gear at the door? Sure, HC guilds will clear the place first week, but it still will take even them a few weeks to gear up. Other will take much much longer to gear. So gear based solutions need to take that in mind.

Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.

I can't help but think we blow this "re-gearing" problem way out of proportion. We can probably reforge/regem half our haste away without much of a hitch. At least T15 LFR will be useful for something besides just silly high ilvls...

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

I could reforge and regem to get rid of a bit over 3000 of my 7200 haste rating. Probably got enough non-haste gear to drop another 2k on top of that, but would lose a certain amount of stamina due to upgraded pieces.

It would be nice to know sooner than later that I need to spend DKP on certain items and can pass on others though, like that belt from the heroic doggies that I'd passed on twice before GC broke the news...

The are handing out free gear at the door? Sure, HC guilds will clear the place first week, but it still will take even them a few weeks to gear up. Other will take much much longer to gear. So gear based solutions need to take that in mind.

Your replacements for the slots come from:- Bosses you kill in Normal mode.- LFR.- Reduced cost Valor replacements if your gear is in such a way.- Any gear you obtain between the announcement and the patch.- Reforging the Haste pieces and going to bat against bosses that really have never really been tank-threatening this expansion to a large degree.

There is no possible scenario where someone can really struggle as a result even if Haste was completely removed, and Blizzard is explicitly saying that they do not want to make Haste worthless anyway.

It would be nice to know sooner than later that I need to spend DKP on certain items and can pass on others though, like that belt from the heroic doggies that I'd passed on twice before GC broke the news...

Not sure why you'd be having to worry about DKP on gear that pretty much only you can use anyway. Even in a 25M running multiple tanks, all the tank pieces are like .... default. Rule no.1 of tanking has been to always hold on to one of everything, and never let anything get sharded/offspecced if you don't have it first.

PaladinTo stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.

PaladinTo stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.

PaladinTo stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.

Sounds like good news.

Who didn't see that coming.

We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.