In this thread, I would like you to explain how you came to that conclusion. I would appreciate your thoughts.

I respect your valuable opinion, I am just very curious.

Zahia

05-19-2010, 12:22 AM

I'm also very curious about this Pakistan = Israel theory. . .

Zahia

05-19-2010, 01:03 AM

Well, if he is comparing Pakistan's interference in Afghanistan to Israel's interference in Lebanon, he would be very correct... I am anxious to hear his opinion.

Max

05-19-2010, 01:22 AM

hmm i know for sure pakistanis are famous for shooting down Israeli fighters in the war, they didnt lose a single one of their own..even the Israeli president commended the Pakistanis for showing bravery even though they were enemies :)

Max

05-19-2010, 01:25 AM

This is from wikipedia

In 1947, media reports the first contact between Pakistan and Israel were made in early days of Pakistan's independence, when Israeli Prime minister David Ben-Gurion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion) sent a secret message by phone to the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_Jinnah) to recognize Israel. But Jinnah did not give any particular response to Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel).
In 1973, the sixteen of Pakistan Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Air_Force)'s fighter pilots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_pilot) volunteered in Yom Kippur War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War). During the conflict, PAF did not lose a single pilot whereas PAF pilots shot down 3 Israeli aircraft. Nur Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nur_Khan), who was the Wing Commander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander) received praised from Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) President Ezer Weizman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezer_Weizman) who wrote in his autobiography that: "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".
In the 1980's, during the Pakistan-Afghan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Afghan_War), Pakistani-based intelligence ISI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence) and Israeli intelligence Mossad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad) along with the CIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA), ran a covert operation in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan) to remove the Soviets from the country. Israel and Pakistan also had high-level dealings through their powerful intelligence agencies which included military dealings. [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-2). Israel also supported Pakistan by providing Soviet weapons to Pakistan during 1980s which were seized after invading Lebanon.

In 1981 After Israel's attack on Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactors in the 1980's, a similar plan to attack Pakistan's Kahuta Research facility by using Indian airfields was foiled, when the Pakistan Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Air_Force) got alerted beforehand, and took preventative measures.
In 1993, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto), along with her then-Director-General of Military Operations, Pervez Musharraf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervez_Musharraf), , had intensified the ISI’s liaison with Mossad in 1993, and she too began to cultivate the American Jewish lobby. Bhutto is said to have had a secret meeting in New York with a senior Israeli emissary, who flew to the U.S. during her visit to Washington, DC in 1995.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-War-3).
In 1996, Pakistan's Intelligence Agency, FIA, started a secret war against islamic Extremist in Pakistan under the leadership of Rehman Malik. According to sources, FIA contacted Israeli intelligence agency Mossad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad) to help and send its officers to investigate the Islamic extremist in Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan). This action dismayed many religious factors in Pakistan as well as ISI.
In 1998, Pakistani delegation to the United Nations met with Israeli UN delegation, shortly after Pakistan conducted its nuclear tests. Pakistan assured Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) that it will never transfer nuclear technology to Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) or any other state.
In 2001, Pakistan via ISI, passed intelligence about the Gulf States and the nuclear ambitions of Iran and Libya, whose programs Pakistani scientists had helped to build[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-War-3).
In 2002, Pakistani tennis player Aisam-ul-Haque (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aisam-ul-Haque&action=edit&redlink=1) teamed up with Amir Hadad of Israel during Wimbledon and US Open tournaments in 2002.
In 2003, President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President) Pervez Musharraf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervez_Musharraf) raised the issue of possible diplomatic relations with Israel,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-4)
In 2005 the foreign ministers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_minister) of the two countries held talks for the first time.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-5) However, following the meeting Musharraf said Pakistan will not recognise the state of Israel until an independent Palestinian state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_state) is established,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-6) - although, according to Musharraf, Pakistan will eventually recognize Israel.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-7)

Max

05-19-2010, 01:41 AM

Man its confusing, here Pakistani Air Force is shooting down the Israeli Planes
:lal7:

1967 Arab-Israeli 'Six-Day' War

After the 1965 India-Pakistan War, some Arab countries requested Pakistan to depute some its pilots to their air forces. Consequently, a small batch of PAF pilots were deputed to the air forces of Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Egypt. When the Arab-Israeli 'Six-Day' War broke out in 1967, these PAF pilots on deputation were requested by their host countries to participate in defensive combat operations.

On 5 June 1967, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam, on deputation to the joint command of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) and the Iraqi Air Force, was flying a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Jordan in an RJAF Hawker Hunter from Mafrak Air Base in Jordan. He was accompanied by 3 other RJAF Hunters. Their formation was informed by the ground controller of the presence of 6 Israeli Air Force IDF/AF Super Mysteres B-2s, which had crossed into Jordanian airspace. The 4 RJAF Hunters engaged the 6 IDF/AF Super Mysteres and Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam shot down an IDF/AF Super Mystere using the Hunter's 30 mm guns. With this kill, PAF pilots drew first blood against the IDF/AF. In this engagement, the Jordanians suffered no losses.

Two days later, in the morning of 7 June 1967, Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam. this time on deputation to the Iraqi Air Force (IrAF) was flying a defensive CAP in an IrAF Hawker Hunter (S. No. 702) over western Iraq from H3 Air Base in a formation of 4 IrAF Hunters. Ground controllers notified their formation of a formation of 8 Israeli aircraft - 4 IDF/AF Mirage IIICJs and IDF/AF 4 Vatour IIN Bombers - that had crossed into Iraqi airspace. The IrAF formation immediately engaged the Israeli aircraft and in the ensuing dogfight Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam shot down one IDF/AF Mirage IIICJ (Serial No. 6660) and one IDF/AF Vatour IIN Bomber with his Hunter's 30 mm guns. The M.IIICJ pilot was Gideon Dror, IAF, who ejected and was taken POW, while Vatour IIN bomber was the IDF/AF Vatour flight leader. In this engagement, the Iraqi Air Force suffered no loss.

RJAF and IrAF were flying under a joint command. Flt. Lt. S. Azam became the only pilot from the Arab side to have shot down 3 IDF/IAF aircraft within 72 hours and also the only pilot to have shot down 3 different aircraft types of the IDF/IAF. He was, subsequently, decorated by Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Pakistan.

1973 Arab-Israeli 'Ramadhan/Yom Kippur' War

During the war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to go to the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived, Egypt had already been pushed into a ceasefire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel.

On 23 October 1973, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif on deputation to Egyptian Air Force (EAF) was flying a EAF MiG-21 in a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Egypt when he was vectored towards an intruding Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) F-4 Phantom. In the ensuing dogfight, Flt. Lt. M. Hatif shot down the Israeli Phantom.

Eight (8) PAF pilots started flying out of Syrian Airbases; they formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr Airbase. The Pakistani pilots flew Syrian MiG-21 aircraft conducting CAP missions for the Syrians.

On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL Fishbed (Serial No. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 Air-to-Air Missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission. The 2 IAF Mirage IIICJs were from Hatzor AFB and the 2 IAF F-4 Phantoms were from No. 1 Air Wing, Ramat David AFB, Israel.

Flt. Lt. A. Sattar Alvi became the first Pakistani pilot, during the Yom Kippur War, to shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.He was honored by the Syrian government. Other aerial encounters involved Israeli F-4 Phantoms; Pakistan Air Force did not lose a single pilot or aircraft during this war. The Pakistani pilots stayed on in Syria until 1976, training Syrian pilots in the art of air warfare.

“Pakistan is like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse.”

Puts a rather interesting perspective on things.

das true actually, but that will be true for any ideological state no

states have to be formed on something, why not ideologies..atleast they are stronger than treaties

Nick

05-19-2010, 02:30 AM

Salam Nick,

I saw you stating Pakistan = Israel.

In this thread, I would like you to explain how you came to that conclusion. I would appreciate your thoughts.

I respect your valuable opinion, I am just very curious.

Yes I understand Pakistan calls itself Islamic republic, but I think they would rather not, if they notice they don't have to.

I know the history behind the creation of Pakistan. Many people in the field thinks that process of making a nation such as Pakistan was due to long suffering and protests which ended with theory that this "Pakistan was formed because Hindu-Muslims of British Raj demanded so".

Lets take this Pakistan back to history, that how it was transformed into a State.
Long before time in early 1920s, no-one would of even thought that there would be a nation in Pakistan that would have mainly Muslim population. Yes dear friend we are talking nation building by British within 30 years, not there was no machine in making such process but rather redevelop and use the ideology which was present in the WWI in making sure both their companies (British Own Assets in South Asia), and their influence remains in this part of the world.

Before WWI British never thought that they will one day loss India. India was like the treasure Box, in the war against Afghans, British new they could lunch another attack against Afghans, but had theoretical reasons that they may loss what they already have, is more then enough, the only problem was Russia. In conclusion general Napoleon Cavagnari wrote that they knew the wealth of England is protected from Russians, even if they didn’t support the Pathans in the case of Russian invasion. British had full confidence that Afghans were not easily to be conquered. However in the main time a treaty with Amir of Afghanistan would reassure British that no such plots would be made against British Raj, In this agreement for a period of time a promise of friendship was made and that British will not attack his kingdom and that Durant line will be set as Buffer Zone. This was assigned by which Afghans lost ½ of Afghan land and ¼ of its total population was to be separated from its motherland named “Afghanistan”. This would be called Northern Frontier also known as NWFP but later from NWFP Pakistan created FATA. NWFP (Sarhad) was to be printed in books as 4th province of Pakistan after declaration of Ayub Khan’s victory in Chitral.

One thing British really didn’t pay attention to was this newly added region entering into their “Empire”. British forces continually battled to control this 2 million people but wasn’t able to, so what they did was to play this divide and rule game which turned out to be successful, because what British was concern was making sure no such danger comes from NW. In 1909 some thousands of men was gathered in Peshawar, British had to surrender and post was emptied within a week British recaptured Peshawar. A city which was not as important as it is today, the city of Peshawar was ending tip of Afghan land, but nevertheless majority were still Pashtuns. The losing of Peshawar for a week was perhaps a warning that these Afghan tribesmen are up to something. British still ignored their voices, in the fallowing years a party from descendents of Afghans was formed, a shocking bomb which gave a solid bone in backing nationalism, and rights of freedom. This was to be known as Khilafat movement.

The history of Khilafat movement is not really thought in the Pakistani high schools, but its history was not as old to be forgotten. Often considered to be called as The Ali Brothers, was a movement by two brothers of Afghan origin, Mulana Shukat Ali Khan and Mulana Mohammad Ali Khan, born to wealthy business family from NWFP. Their main cause was the freedom from British. After trip to Afghanistan, Turkey and Europe, Khilafat movement was strong as ever, after their arrival in India, their support and sorrow was now to be shared amongst millions of Muslims from India this was the marking point of All India Muslim League formed in 1907. The Khilafat movement gave hindu-Muslims a little hope after few skirmishes and clashes that took place between Khilafat supporters from NWF and British. Thousands of bodies to be burned and laid down, the city of Quetta was out of control and British had to retaliate. In the 2 years process a peace was made between British Raj and Khilafat, in which peace was stored. Here we enter a new phase of Indian history that will change the map of India, his name Mohammad Ali Jinnah born as Ithna Ansari believer (Shia school was member of Indian national congress, changed hands and entered All India Muslim League in 1913) In the main time a plan was to be made because British had to reassert its control over India, complication in Europe, and Indian National Congress, the Khilafat movement, was the worse nightmare. Finally after thousands of its members pushed and bullied by the British Officers, members of Khilafat movement were forced to join All India Muslim league. Finally in 1924 British announced Khilafat was no longer recognized movement, but rather a terrorist militancy group from NWFP, and in 1934 a new league (Muslim League) was to be formed, which resulted from disagreements in All Parties Conference of December 1928, in the recommendation by British which ended by stating that All Muslim India League and Indian National Congress cannot be handed power, unless a new nation was to be formed for the Muslim. A year after Jinnah’s formation of his League, British announced their plan openly under Government of India Act 1935 in which two semiautonomous states was to be formed and both had to join New India Federation.

In 1939 WWII begins and British under intense pressure was not able to control India’s militancy which was now growing amongst Hindus as well, British openly blamed Afghanistan for its support to this militancy and because of close ties of Afghan king with Japan and Germany a team of 15,000 was send to “maintain control of the border”. In making sure India is not lost by the hands of Brits the rise of Religious conflict was the only option left. Therefore Few Temples in Fire would due the job, after intense 4 months civil conflict in March, 23, 1940 Mohammad Ali Jinnah openly expressed his support for the Brits recommendation of two state solution to the people of India. It was then the Pakistan movement was born, initially British thought this would not be supported due to mixture of hindu and muslims in the demographics of India, this was to be a hard task, because half of today’s Pakistan’s population was Hindu and Sikhs and other half Muslim. In the progress to save their Company the approval was made in 1946, leaving behind the question of Kashmir between Pakistan and India, and the question of Sarhad between Pakistan and formal enemy and initials anti-Brits, Afghanistan.

Understanding to How it was created, check history of Israel, how they raised to power and how from 25% jews now claims up to 70% of Israel as Jewish land.

Understanding Pakistan’s formation, and their claim of “United Muslim Nation” is very important. One thing to remind our selves the region today we know as Pakistan was created to be a “Muslim” nation while in 1945 this same region it was half non-Muslim.
Be a judge and tell me in the past 10 years what did Pakistan do, that justify itself to be called an Islamic nation.

Like Israelis they kill and bombs the regions that internationally recognized as part of Pakistani map. Like Israelis they conquer and bogus the people for peace and instability. Like Israelis in order to claim they make-up fake stats and documents. Like Israelis they publish false news regarding Muslim, dissing mualana’s and religious respected leaders is a good example, and making false movie regarding “Terrorism” etc etc.

Above all my heart drops, when I see a face of Pashtun in the face dirty-mud hit by a Pak*i bullet.

I know some of you may know history but many don't know and often forgets to the reason why Pakistan was created. You think about it and let me know. Israel=Pakistan in the sense of their maneuver not in the sense of People's nation.

Before you respond against me answer this question first
WHY WAS THIS PAK-ISTAN, a land clean from Hindus was created?

To be continued.....

Max

05-19-2010, 02:38 AM

^ eh dude no need to get personal ma family is pashtun and we love pakistan to death and so do all ma pashtun friends..All this history BS is for old geezers, we keep hanging onto it and we'll always be stuck in the history

Moving on

And as far as Israel and Pakistan go, they only similarity i think they are both hated by lots of countries.

Atleast US has Israel's back, we only got ourselves ..so we did and will do whatever we have to do to protect our interests.

I dunno about your rant on all the hoop-lah..but pakistan and israel are enemies...we fought for our country.

^ eh dude no need to get personal ma family is pashtun and we love pakistan to death and so do all ma pashtun friends..All this history BS is for old geezers, we keep hanging onto it and we'll always be stuck in the history

Moving on

And as far as Israel and Pakistan go, they only similarity i think they are both hated by lots of countries.

Atleast US has Israel's back, we only got ourselves ..so we did and will do whatever we have to do to protect our interests.

I dunno about your rant on all the hoop-lah..but pakistan and israel are enemies...we fought for our country.

Max for me your opinion matters more. I didn't ask you what Race you belong and I don't want to know it either. Because in the cyberworld one can be an Irani/Jewish/Pashtun/Hindu or American. If it moves likes like a Duck, talks like a duck it must be a Duck. You are Pakistani stick to that don't tell me you are Saraki/Sarhadi/hindko/Sindhi/Buhari/Afghan/Baloch/Punjabi/Kasmiri/Mahajur/Hazara.

Cause you can't speak for all Pashtuns.

There is a saying amongst Pakistanis themselves and we Afghans are aware of this as well in Pakistan there are 4 types of Pathans
Lost Pathans
True Pathans
Wannabe Pathans
Fake Pathans usually with the last name "Khan"

BLS_1919v2.0

05-19-2010, 02:54 AM

das true actually, but that will be true for any ideological state no

states have to be formed on something, why not ideologies..atleast they are stronger than treaties

Actually, the point isn't about whether a state is built on an ideology or treaty, but rather if the criteria is rational. I don't think the ideology of Pakistan is rational at all, not even politically or religiously. Sure, it made sense for Britain to create it (strategic reasons), but other than that, no real rationale.

Also, how many ideological states are their really? Israel, Pakistan and former soviet union, and among them one has already failed, the other is nearly collapsing, and Israel has major strategic issues. So there is no empirical proof to say one is stronger than the other. In fact I can name you very strong non-ideological nations: Japan, US, Germany, Sweden, etc.

tor_khan

05-19-2010, 03:07 AM

das true actually, but that will be true for any ideological state no

states have to be formed on something, why not ideologies..atleast they are stronger than treaties

Periodically, we come back to Pakistan's reason for being and so perhaps it's less the rights or wrongs of the ideology, but its more the comparison between the two, in that Zia himself likened Pakistan to Israel.

Max

05-19-2010, 03:08 AM

Well the thing is BLS i dont wanna get into a debate over wether there was a rational for it or not.

Lets look at the reality right now, Israel is a reality even if we dont accept it..they bombed the sh**t out of all arab nations and all they can do is not accept it as a nation. Same thing for Russia its power might have diminished but its still running the show..As for Pakistan i think considering how many problems we're facing we're doing fine, any other state would have collapsed by now

but back to the rationale point, lets say that there wasnt a rationale for Pakistan's creation, but it did get created and we do have a country. So now what ? we do have to defend it since thats all we got, thats all we can identify with..and to be quite frank i think most of our people despite the hardships would still prefer Pakistan over Afghanistan..I know the meshuds and other tribes they are against Pakistan, but they are like 0.1% of the total population yara.

whats easier for us pashtuns ? start a civil war ? do we have enough numbers ? i dont think so..i know i wouldnt be in support of a civil war because there is no need

Some rights need to be given, but i think its something we will have to do on our own..We will have to educate our own people, we will have to go out of the villages and connect to the country..we will have to become more mainstream only then can we assert our influence over policy making

Max

05-19-2010, 03:13 AM

Max for me your opinion matters more. I didn't ask you what Race you belong and I don't want to know it either. Because in the cyberworld one can be an Irani/Jewish/Pashtun/Hindu or American. If it moves likes like a Duck, talks like a duck it must be a Duck. You are Pakistani stick to that don't tell me you are Saraki/Sarhadi/hindko/Sindhi/Buhari/Afghan/Baloch/Punjabi/Kasmiri/Mahajur/Hazara.

Cause you can't speak for all Pashtuns.

There is a saying amongst Pakistanis themselves and we Afghans are aware of this as well in Pakistan there are 4 types of Pathans
Lost Pathans
True Pathans
Wannabe Pathans
Fake Pathans usually with the last name "Khan"

lol i'll ask the canadian government to write my tribe credentials on my next driver's license :lal7:

anyways yara, Pakistan is a country of 160 million people, out of those only 28% are pashtun out of those 50% dont even live in pakhtunkhwa

in the end you got that 0.1% mehsud minority thats wavin its banner and killing innocents .. all for what ? if anything that has made everybody hate this ethnic sh**t even more

BLS_1919v2.0

05-19-2010, 03:15 AM

Well the thing is BLS i dont wanna get into a debate over wether there was a rational for it or not.

Lets look at the reality right now, Israel is a reality even if we dont accept it..they bombed the sh**t out of all arab nations and all they can do is not accept it as a nation. Same thing for Russia its power might have diminished but its still running the show..As for Pakistan i think considering how many problems we're facing we're doing fine, any other state would have collapsed by now

but back to the rationale point, lets say that there wasnt a rationale for Pakistan's creation, but it did get created and we do have a country. So now what ? we do have to defend it since thats all we got, thats all we can identify with..and to be quite frank i think most of our people despite the hardships would still prefer Pakistan over Afghanistan..I know the meshuds and other tribes they are against Pakistan, but they are like 0.1% of the total population yara.

whats easier for us pashtuns ? start a civil war ? do we have enough numbers ? i dont think so..i know i wouldnt be in support of a civil war because there is no need

Some rights need to be given, but i think its something we will have to do on our own..We will have to educate our own people, we will have to go out of the villages and connect to the country..we will have to become more mainstream only then can we assert our influence over policy making

You are creating strawman arguments, not to mention you are jumping from one premise to another. That is not logical. First of all, if a country supposedly built on false rationale, then how can it concievably survive? Maseeds and those other tribes as you call them are not 0.1 % of the population, far from it.

We are not starting a civil war, and you are not getting the point. What I am saying is that Pakistan's policy towards Pashtun areas is not in our interests. What they percieved as strategic depth is strategic death for us. So why would I or any sane pashtun support that? What you are saying is that, we should carry along as the state apparatus ruins us....is that rational? And telling others that civil war is the natural option, well that is not true. There are things called political struggle, and if the army continues what they are doing, then believe me, our areas are ruined enough...how much more damage would a civil war do, when our areas are being bombed and have been bombed by f-16s?

Max

05-19-2010, 03:31 AM

BLS yar i understand where your coming from..and im half stoned so my bad if the logic is a bit jumpy

But mayn look at it this way, political struggle's gotta come from someone who is capable of representing our interests and doesnt come of as some separatist dude.

We have had pashtun presidents didnt we ? army chiefs and what not..they didnt do much..so what political struggle..are we under represented ? na are we discriminated for powerful positions in governance ? na

So there has to be something else, and that something else like you mentioned in other thread is education yara..we need to bring people towards the new age..we're still stuck with our guns and havent been able to embrace the changing times as a race..with the oppurtunities we were given we could have become a political force.

as for Pakistan's strategic depth in afghanistan..its war bro, as much as i hate it if we dont fight we die..Afghanistan is responsible to an extent for its own troubles, they had oppurtunities and time and they let it all go. When you become weak then others can take over..law of the jungle

EDIT: For that mehsud tribe rep % i might be wrong cuz i am quoting someone i know, can you correct me on that ?

and the F16s mara what other choices we got :(

BLS_1919v2.0

05-19-2010, 04:28 AM

BLS yar i understand where your coming from..and im half stoned so my bad if the logic is a bit jumpy

But mayn look at it this way, political struggle's gotta come from someone who is capable of representing our interests and doesnt come of as some separatist dude.

We have had pashtun presidents didnt we ? army chiefs and what not..they didnt do much..so what political struggle..are we under represented ? na are we discriminated for powerful positions in governance ? na

So there has to be something else, and that something else like you mentioned in other thread is education yara..we need to bring people towards the new age..we're still stuck with our guns and havent been able to embrace the changing times as a race..with the oppurtunities we were given we could have become a political force.

as for Pakistan's strategic depth in afghanistan..its war bro, as much as i hate it if we dont fight we die..Afghanistan is responsible to an extent for its own troubles, they had oppurtunities and time and they let it all go. When you become weak then others can take over..law of the jungle

EDIT: For that mehsud tribe rep % i might be wrong cuz i am quoting someone i know, can you correct me on that ?

and the F16s mara what other choices we got :(

Loll again you are setting up straw man arguments. Pakistan's policy was good for the people east of the indus, but for Pashtuns it was destructive. If it is the law of the jungle then let anyone who ruins Pashtun areas burn (Pakistan inlcuded). By your logic, we Pashtuns should turn against Pak army and pak state apparatus right? I mean it is working against us. Afghanistan's stability is in the complete interest of Pashtunkhwa. If panjab or sindh go into turmoil, Pashtuns may suffer some spillover, however if Afghanistan goes through any political problems, we Pashtuns in Pashtunkhwa suffer immediately and immensely. Don't even think for a second that Pashtuns (whether east or west of the durand line) can survive if Afghanistan is burning. That is like saying, a person can win a 100 meter dash with one leg amputated. It is highly unlikely and will end up being a spectacle.

We had two presidents who were Pashtuns- Ayub Khan and Ghulam Ishaq Khan. This again is flawed logic, because you assume that if two people made it to presidency they will: a) be loyal to their own pashtuns, b) will think or implement policies different than a person of another ethnic group and c) are moving up the ranks due to their loyalty as pashtuns and not due to some other factor. Basically, people who make it in the army of pakistan, pashtuns included, rarely have a love for Pashtuns or Pashtunkhwa. It is very rare, on the other hand, they will happily go against Pashtuns for their new love to the state. In terms of representation lolzz, peera Pashtuns are politically divided in Pakistan into 4 regions: FATA, khyber pashtunkhwa, Northern Balochistan, mianwali-attock. In fact you can divide further, where in Khyber pashtunkhwa we are split into PATA, FR, settled districts. So actually we are politically sidelined. These things were set up by the british before them and are a major hurdle for Pashtuns betterment and even for the future stability of our moranae watan Afghanistan.

BLS_1919v2.0

05-19-2010, 04:30 AM

And Nick, please stop further dividing Pashtuns. The Pashtuns criteria has been their islam and pakhto. This fake pathan or whatever pathan is nonsense. Either you are a drun pakhtun or a daoss...doesn't matter if you are from Afghanistan or Pakhtunkhwa. Both sides have their fair share of embarassments who have doen wodnerfully in shaming our Afghan name and pashto. Manana

Max

05-19-2010, 04:37 AM

lol this is too much of a heavy debate.

BLS i think its cool that you wanna stand up for something, but my advice and you dont have to even read it bro..but i think if we allign our interests with our country we will benefit more.

And i think i dont need to tell you what the ground reality is in Pakistan because im pretty sure your more aware of it than i am..And reality is that if a referendum was held again, a huge minority would vote for Pakistan still

BLS_1919v2.0

05-19-2010, 04:41 AM

lol this is too much of a heavy debate.

BLS i think its cool that you wanna stand up for something, but my advice and you dont have to even read it bro..but i think if we allign our interests with our country we will benefit more.

And i think i dont need to tell you what the ground reality is in Pakistan because im pretty sure your more aware of it than i am..And reality is that if a referendum was held again, a huge minority would vote for Pakistan still

Loll we alligned those interests right through the 80s and 90s, tell me how are those lashkars and taliban faring in Pashtunkhwa? Are they really helping pashtuns?

Peera maybe you are right, but let me take that further, and put forward two things:
- Will Pakistan allow the baloch to have that referendum? Do you think Pakistan has a chance baloch will vote for Pakistan (without heavy rigging)?
- Prior to the Yugoslav civil war, more than half, rather an overwhelming majority of bosniaks supported Yugoslavia, identified with it (much more strongly than pashtuns or anyone else does with pakistan). What happened to them? When push came to shove, no one got so badly mistreated as they did.

Max

05-19-2010, 04:54 AM

Loll we alligned those interests right through the 80s and 90s, tell me how are those lashkars and taliban faring in Pashtunkhwa? Are they really helping pashtuns?

Peera maybe you are right, but let me take that further, and put forward two things:
- Will Pakistan allow the baloch to have that referendum? Do you think Pakistan has a chance baloch will vote for Pakistan (without heavy rigging)?
- Prior to the Yugoslav civil war, more than half, rather an overwhelming majority of bosniaks supported Yugoslavia, identified with it (much more strongly than pashtuns or anyone else does with pakistan). What happened to them? When push came to shove, no one got so badly mistreated as they did.

true, but we got played by both sides..In Afghanistan they couldnt handle their internal affairs so they invited Russia to beat up Pashtuns and "set those tribals" straight..pakistan seeing our brotherhood connection with them armed us and sent us in..And i think today whats happening in Pakistan is our own undoing

But looking back, what other choices did Pakistan have ? India Russia and the Northerners were upto their necks killing off our people..The only thing we could do was help our pashtun brothers fight.

Anyways wrora i think we have hijacked his thread lol, lets rag on the Jews :D

Michin Khel

05-19-2010, 05:40 AM

@Nick
A member said in this thread that nick is a great scholar of PF so my expectations were high from you in proving that pakistan=israel. I think you failed to integrat properly your knoweledge of history with your logics.
But at the end you raised an important question, what is the reason of creation of pakistan? To debate on this question separately, i am opening a separate thread.

afghan

05-19-2010, 06:09 AM

This is from wikipedia

In 1947, media reports the first contact between Pakistan and Israel were made in early days of Pakistan's independence, when Israeli Prime minister David Ben-Gurion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion) sent a secret message by phone to the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_Jinnah) to recognize Israel. But Jinnah did not give any particular response to Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel).
In 1973, the sixteen of Pakistan Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Air_Force)'s fighter pilots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_pilot) volunteered in Yom Kippur War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War). During the conflict, PAF did not lose a single pilot whereas PAF pilots shot down 3 Israeli aircraft. Nur Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nur_Khan), who was the Wing Commander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander) received praised from Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) President Ezer Weizman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezer_Weizman) who wrote in his autobiography that: "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".
In the 1980's, during the Pakistan-Afghan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Afghan_War), Pakistani-based intelligence ISI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence) and Israeli intelligence Mossad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad) along with the CIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA), ran a covert operation in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan) to remove the Soviets from the country. Israel and Pakistan also had high-level dealings through their powerful intelligence agencies which included military dealings. [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-2). Israel also supported Pakistan by providing Soviet weapons to Pakistan during 1980s which were seized after invading Lebanon.

In 1981 After Israel's attack on Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactors in the 1980's, a similar plan to attack Pakistan's Kahuta Research facility by using Indian airfields was foiled, when the Pakistan Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Air_Force) got alerted beforehand, and took preventative measures.
In 1993, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto), along with her then-Director-General of Military Operations, Pervez Musharraf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervez_Musharraf), , had intensified the ISI’s liaison with Mossad in 1993, and she too began to cultivate the American Jewish lobby. Bhutto is said to have had a secret meeting in New York with a senior Israeli emissary, who flew to the U.S. during her visit to Washington, DC in 1995.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-War-3).
In 1996, Pakistan's Intelligence Agency, FIA, started a secret war against islamic Extremist in Pakistan under the leadership of Rehman Malik. According to sources, FIA contacted Israeli intelligence agency Mossad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad) to help and send its officers to investigate the Islamic extremist in Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan). This action dismayed many religious factors in Pakistan as well as ISI.
In 1998, Pakistani delegation to the United Nations met with Israeli UN delegation, shortly after Pakistan conducted its nuclear tests. Pakistan assured Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) that it will never transfer nuclear technology to Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) or any other state.
In 2001, Pakistan via ISI, passed intelligence about the Gulf States and the nuclear ambitions of Iran and Libya, whose programs Pakistani scientists had helped to build[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-War-3).
In 2002, Pakistani tennis player Aisam-ul-Haque (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aisam-ul-Haque&action=edit&redlink=1) teamed up with Amir Hadad of Israel during Wimbledon and US Open tournaments in 2002.
In 2003, President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President) Pervez Musharraf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervez_Musharraf) raised the issue of possible diplomatic relations with Israel,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-4)
In 2005 the foreign ministers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_minister) of the two countries held talks for the first time.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-5) However, following the meeting Musharraf said Pakistan will not recognise the state of Israel until an independent Palestinian state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_state) is established,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-6) - although, according to Musharraf, Pakistan will eventually recognize Israel.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#cite_note-7)

you must be deep asleep or jinnah alreay knew that tha state israel(1948) will be created, israel and pakistan had similar trategic advantes a to western countties. Afghans have defeated the mghty british army several times, it needed a permanent base in south asia and one in the middle-east.
since when israel and paaakies had war? i am sure Israel is much stronger millitarily. i believe Israel and pakiies have been allied more than enemies.

Michin Khel

05-19-2010, 06:13 AM

I know some of you may know history but many don't know and often forgets to the reason why Pakistan was created. You think about it and let me know. Israel=Pakistan in the sense of their maneuver not in the sense of People's nation.

Before you respond against me answer this question first
WHY WAS THIS PAK-ISTAN, a land clean from Hindus was created?

To be continued.....

You yourself has answered your question, "a land clean of hindus". To make it more refine, you can say that purpose of pak-istan creation was independent country for indian muslims out of fear of hindu dominance where they can practice their faith freely. Hindu-muslim conflicts or more precisely anti-muslim riots make the weak muslims of india to dream of a country where they are not killed in masses for eating cow meat. It was clear to Muslims that in United india they will be overwhelmed by magority hindus according to demoratic system and their rights will always ignored. A fear that in-numerable hindus will trample them, provoke idea of pakistan in hindi muslims.

Marwat

05-19-2010, 08:43 AM

Nick after you answer everyones questions I also have to ask you questions.

please further elaborate on your points thoug.

thank you dear Nick.

Max

05-19-2010, 10:42 AM

I dont get it lol, the guy just wrote down his own opinion which is pretty much as biased as anyone is gonna get

I dont really care if he or anyone else hates Pakistan and wants to put us = Israel..fact of the matter is Pakistan is enough to defend itself against Israel, and we are an islamic state..enough said

Max

05-19-2010, 10:57 AM

But he hasnt stated any facts ? He is only presenting his view of the distorted history..None of his parallels work

Read this and it should tell you how close Israel and Pakistan came to war

After successfully destroying Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, Israelis planned a similar attack on Pakistan’s nuclear facilities at Kahuta in collusion with India in the 1980s. Using satellite pictures and intelligence information, Israel reportedly built a full-scale mock-up of Kahuta facility in the Negev Desert where pilots of F-16 and F-15 squadrons practised mock attacks.

According to ‘The Asian Age’, journalists Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark stated in their book ‘Deception: Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy’, that Israeli Air Force was to launch an air attack on Kahuta in mid-1980s from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat (India). The book claims that “in March 1984, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed off (on) the Israeli-led operation bringing India, Pakistan and Israel to within a hair’s breadth of a nuclear conflagration”.

Another report claims that Israel also planned an air strike directly out of Israel. After midway and midair refueling, Israeli warplanes planned to shoot down a commercial airline’s flight over Indian Ocean that flew into Islamabad early morning, fly in a tight formation to appear as one large aircraft on radar screens preventing detection, use the drowned airliner’s call sign to enter Islamabad’s air space, knock out Kahuta and fly out to Jammu to refuel and exit.

According to reliable reports in mid-1980s this mission was actually launched one night. But the Israelis were in for a big surprise. They discovered that Pakistan Air Force had already sounded an alert and had taken to the skies in anticipation of this attack. The mission had to be hurriedly aborted.

Pakistan reminded the Israelis that Pakistan was no Iraq and that PAF was no Iraqi Air Force. Pakistan is reported to have conveyed that an attack on Kahuta would force Pakistan to lay waste to Dimona, Israel’s nuclear reactor in the Negev Desert. India was also warned that Islamabad would attack Trombay if Kahuta facilities were hit.

Max

05-19-2010, 11:07 AM

lol na yara, i dont have that much gray matter to debate on something like this..I gave you guys some basic facts about the interactions between Israel and Pakistan.

Ive been Pakistan and i hear almost every Imam make special dua for palestinians at the end of the jummah, and i make dua for them too

And the stuff Nick posted, its just his own views, he can keep em.. BLS jaana had some good points about pashtun development, i dont think he is that interested in Pak and Israel nor are pakistanis or the jews lol

Niazi

05-19-2010, 11:51 AM

first of all Pakistan isn't Islamic country UK is moe Islamic then Pakistan ,Pakistan was created becouse of two Gujraties rivalary,Pakistan army killed more Muslim of Pakistan citizan then Israel didn't killed so much Muslim in her entire existence.

Palwasha

05-19-2010, 12:16 PM

^Lol, the UK definitely isn't more Islamic. I'd say you can practice your Islam more freely and properly here though.

Ive been Pakistan and i hear almost every Imam make special dua for palestinians at the end of the jummah, and i make dua for them too

Even here in Britain the Pakistani's were hand in hand with the Arabs. Not only with the protesting, but with the fundraising also.

Pakistan has it's problems and issues, but nothing compares to Israel.

Palwasha

05-19-2010, 12:28 PM

The bribery that exists in pakistan alone puts it in competition with Israel.

I still stand by what I say, forget Pakistan or whatever nation it is, you simply can't compare to Israel.

Max

05-19-2010, 12:34 PM

well despite all its shortcomings I can give you one thing that alone puts Pakistan in my good books

Mecca Madina are safe from enemy nukes today cuz of Pakistan

But i will also mention that Pakistan along with every other muslim nation, we also had a role to play to help palestinians, our people are willing but the government are idiots fundoos.

Inshallah time will come when we will all rise to the occassion

Niazi

05-19-2010, 01:31 PM

well despite all its shortcomings I can give you one thing that alone puts Pakistan in my good books

Mecca Madina are safe from enemy nukes today cuz of Pakistan

Yeh right when the crunch time come as always pak Army will do the runner they been defeated 3time by Indian lost Kashmir to Indian but yeh they are very good at killing of thier own inoucent civilian raping 200000 Bangali women yeh right Muslim army.

But i will also mention that Pakistan along with every other muslim nation, we also had a role to play to help palestinians, our people are willing but the government are idiots fundoos.

Inshallah time will come when we will all rise to the occassion
:banghead:

Nick

05-19-2010, 04:32 PM

well despite all its shortcomings I can give you one thing that alone puts Pakistan in my good books

Mecca Madina are safe from enemy nukes today cuz of Pakistan

But i will also mention that Pakistan along with every other muslim nation, we also had a role to play to help palestinians, our people are willing but the government are idiots fundoos.

Inshallah time will come when we will all rise to the occassion

Max you should agree that your Hallucinatory state of Pakistan being perfect is only shared amongst those who truly believes in its creation Right? which is why I asked you or any of its believers one question Why was Pakistan created. After answering this question we shell continue with this discussion. Otherwise leave it at this.

BTW I was just reading some of the viewers points, which obviously you have ignored. But the points were really made was regarding Gov vs People. However in your first post you tried to convince me that you were to be a "Pashtun". I was not surprised because almost every-Pakistani in the cyber-world claims to have some sort of "Pathani" connection, just to make your pro-pak*i points. Now I must say although your opinion matters more to me, then your ethnicity. When it comes to Pakistan we want to talk to Punjabis who consider themselves "Muslims" and this is where I would admire a Punjabi more tthen someone trying to post as loser "Pashtuns" in the meantime everything Pakistan does and says is against "Pashtuns".

See Max you got yourself trapped by claiming to be from Afghan race, and yet supporting Pakistan. Which is why I suggest Pakistanis not to make false claims of being Pashtun just so that they can represent Pashtuns.

You can never be a Pashtun, because a Pashtun mindset is far different from your average Pakistanis who believe in the state of Pakistan. Once you believe in Pakistan you cannot be a Pashtuns. This is as clear as I could get. Now I am not speaking to represent one or two persons who in the face of majority are considered "hypocrites" or "backstabbers" but rather majority. Feel free to mention your forefather's name in order to convince me, but its not gonna help, cause we have seen alot of it.

I claimed Israel=Pakistan, and here you bring-up naive arguments and presented me with mysterious military conflicts between Israel and Pakistan, and your claims of Pakistan being Protectors of Mecca. God forbids but some-one saying in my face will really be hurt, because the protection of House of God is only in the hands of Allah, and he has always been protecting it. Now don't tell me America is scared of Pakistan which is why they won't attack Mecca. Truly Ghaffar Khan was right Humanity is respected by Kufars better then comparing to Pakistan. However if he would of said Humanity is respected better by Kufars then Muslim, I totally would of said Nahlath to him, but may peace be upon him, he knew his words. Pakistan does not represent Muslims. The END./

MazloomyarMaseed

05-19-2010, 04:39 PM

b4JnYmKltmc

we dont need sources to prove pakistan is like israel
just ask people in waziristan and they will tell you what pakistan truely is like.

Michin Khel

05-19-2010, 05:15 PM

You yourself has answered your question, "a land clean of hindus". To make it more refine, you can say that purpose of pak-istan creation was independent country for indian muslims out of fear of hindu dominance where they can practice their faith freely. Hindu-muslim conflicts or more precisely anti-muslim riots make the weak muslims of india to dream of a country where they are not killed in masses for eating cow meat. It was clear to Muslims that in United india they will be overwhelmed by magority hindus according to demoratic system and their rights will always ignored. A fear that in-numerable hindus will trample them, provoke idea of pakistan in hindi muslims.

dear nick the answer for your question "why pakistan was created?" lies in my above post.
Dear Luffy With all respect, as a Muslim, I fully understand your point, by All means We the Muslims in general are in support of what you stated above. This is a well known fact, but my concern was not so much of its theory but rather the political understanding of this newly state of Muslims. I am referring to the conflict in which my blood brothers suffer.

The war against Pashtuns, if you tell me Pashtuns are not Muslim, I may shut-up or don't respond, maybe fight from humanity point of view, but if you are a muslim think about it, what is the difference between Palestinians and Pashtuns. I know what you are going to say "Pakis6tan is muslim country and pakistani wants this and that, terrorist this, and terrorism that". You are going to bring every excuse to defend your beloved country Pakistan against comparing to openly kufari state of Israel, however if you are truly a muslim you will know deep in your heart that his is an State vs Pashtun war in which you claim Pashtuns don't corporate.

Again you would understand that in this war the people who suffer don't accept Pakistan and that's same with Palestinians, the ideology behind the cause of the conflict is all same and in this war no other race suffers other than Afghans. Once I was speaking to a mahajur from Karachi who at first supporter of MQM dissed Gov, which things got rough he reminded me, Pakistan and India, he was to prefer Pakistan, a 100 times better than choosing hindu Nation. When things boil between Pakistanis themselves they do diss the Government, Mahajur vs Sindhi and Sindhi vs Punjabi, but Pashtun vs Pakistan, is totally a different issue in which maybe shocking for an Average Pakistani who knows nothing of politics and history and chants Pakistan Zendabad.

We all know this, the topic is not so simple as that, and to answer "Why Pakistan was created" and how it maintains its promise is not an easy answer either. In this topic we are looking at Pakistan's general picture to where Pakistan stands today from a Muslim and from a Pashtun/Afghan point of view not from a Pakistani point of view. We all know how lovely Pakistan is from a Pakistani point of view why not know how ugly Pakistan is from a Pashtun point of view.
I hope you understand to where I am going.

I myself would of screamed a 1000 times "Pakistan Zendabad", if it wasn't in the cost of our blood brothers and our land, or our muslim brothers. We all say yes Hindus and muslims can sit in the same room. But again Just like Israel, unfortunately this Pakistan wants to stand firm by the cost of Muslim blood. This is what I want you to think about, and please don't give me this "Al-qaeda issue" we as Muslims know this is all fake, and you as a Pakistan should know no that Pashtun has ever accepted Pakistan, and we all know Pakistan wants, a firm control over the land which these people never accepted. Now you can go ahead and bring up the issue of referendum or votes, and stats, and this, and that from some Pak*i source, but again we as Afghans and Muslims reject these claims after all that's what Israelis do, push and push into the media, Newspapers, book and encyclopedias, in any form of whatsoever to convince the Muslims, and the world in general the land under its control will always be theirs forever.

As they say "Welcome to the World of Politics and blood shed" The issue of Pakistan is no longer Hindu vs Muslim because today as Stats of Pakistan claims 99% of its population are Muslim, So what's the issue?

MazloomyarMaseed

05-19-2010, 06:40 PM

If Pakistan was created for Muslims, then why is the founders of the Pakistan Army british and why didnt jinnah adopt Islamic law instead of a Westernied Secular laws? its not rocket sceicen, and if Pakistan was for muslims, then why did it oppress the bengalis?

pekhawar

05-19-2010, 06:41 PM

Dear Luffy With all respect, as a Muslim, I fully understand your point, my All means We the Muslims in general are in support of what you stated above. This is a well known fact, but my concern was not so much of its theory but rather the political understanding of this newly state of Muslims. I am referring to the conflict in which my blood brothers suffer. The war against Pashtuns, if you tell me Pashtuns are not Muslim, I may shut-up or don't respond, maybe fight from humanity point of view but this is an internal Muslim conflict in which no other race other then Afghans suffer. Once I was speaking to a mahajur from Karachi who at first supporter of MQM dissed Pakistan, which things got rough he reminded me, Pakistan and India, he was to prefer Pakistan, a 100 times better than choosing hindu Nation.

We all know this, the topic is not so simple as that, a general picture to where Pakistan stands today from a Muslim and from a Pashtun/Afghan point of view not from a Pakistani point of view. We all know how lovely Pakistan is from a Pakistani point of view.
I hope you understand to where I am going.

I myself would of screamed a 1000 times Pakistan Zendabad, if it wasn't in the cost of our blood brothers and our land. But again Just like Israel, unfortunately this Pakistan wants to stand firm by the cost of Muslim blood. This is what I want you to think about, please don't give me this "Al-qaeda issue" we as Muslims know this is all fake, and you as Pakistan should know no Pashtun has ever accepted Pakistan, and we all know Pakistan wants, a firm control over the land which these people never accepted. Now you can go ahead and bring up the issue of referendum or votes and stats and this and that from some Pak*i source, but again we as Afghans and Muslims reject these claims after all that's what Israelis do push and push into the media, Newspapers, book and encyclopedias, in any form of whatsoever to convince the Muslims, and the world in general the land under its control will always be theirs forever.
As they say "Welcome to the World of Politics and blood shed"

I agree.

Pakistan has been nothing but an international migraine like an American once said.

I am born in Pakistani, but I am scared to tell people I am Pakistani.

When I am tell them I am Afghan they have sympathy and love for me.

The minute I say I am Pakistani they look at me as if I am a terrorist.

We have attempted to blow up New York several times, London bombins,Mumbai bombings. All darn Pakistanis, then patriotic Pakistanis get mad on why we hate Pakistan.

MazloomyarMaseed

05-19-2010, 07:16 PM

I agree.

Pakistan has been nothing but an international migraine like an American once said.

I am born in Pakistani, but I am scared to tell people I am Pakistani.

When I am tell them I am Afghan they have sympathy and love for me.

The minute I say I am Pakistani they look at me as if I am a terrorist.

We have attempted to blow up New York several times, London bombins,Mumbai bombings. All darn Pakistanis, then patriotic Pakistanis get mad on why we hate Pakistan.

There is only one option. Radical change and a good armed struggle, how can we face Pakistan without fighting through war, look at the bengalis, they tried the peaceful way and they were raped, tortured and murdered.

BLS_1919v2.0

05-19-2010, 08:43 PM

true, but we got played by both sides..In Afghanistan they couldnt handle their internal affairs so they invited Russia to beat up Pashtuns and "set those tribals" straight..pakistan seeing our brotherhood connection with them armed us and sent us in..And i think today whats happening in Pakistan is our own undoing

But looking back, what other choices did Pakistan have ? India Russia and the Northerners were upto their necks killing off our people..The only thing we could do was help our pashtun brothers fight.

Anyways wrora i think we have hijacked his thread lol, lets rag on the Jews :D

I think you have confused history here. Actually the armed fighting did not start as you had written it, but rather the US had armed and started training mujahideen before any Soviets had set foot in there. Second of all, there is no logic that you can arm people in another country due to 'brotherhood'. By that logic, I guess people should arm baloch and help them as they are being mistreated.

Second of all the 90s was far more complex than what you wrote. Please don't simplify such things.

BLS_1919v2.0

05-19-2010, 09:24 PM

BLS how do you know so much?

Manana wrora, but I am still learning. :-)

PakistaniSoilder

05-19-2010, 09:26 PM

Long Live Pakistan!!!

PakistaniSoilder

05-19-2010, 09:34 PM

There is only one option. Radical change and a good armed struggle, how can we face Pakistan without fighting through war

That is the thing, you can never face Pakistan in a war. We have enormous man power and sophisticated weapons, we are top 10 of most powerful nations on this Earth. Don't point out war with India, that was now 40 years ago. The same time when the U.S. did not win against Vietnam. Today Pakistan's military and U.S. is completely different.

, look at the bengalis, they tried the peaceful way and they were raped, tortured and murdered.

This is B.S. just a few isolated incidents that were blown out of proportion by the Indian propaganda machine.

Now would you like me to mention your fallicies against women in your own communities in West Pakistan and in Afghanistan that occurs on a daily basis.

Did you not in my other thread condemn women in Pakistan's military saying its unIslamic?

Is it not your view that you want to keep women inferior to men? You do not view them equal to men? Is it not your view that you want to keep them at home so they can cook and clean for you? Is it not your view that they do not have freedom of choice?

PakistaniSoilder

05-19-2010, 09:52 PM

Yes I understand Pakistan calls itself Islamic republic, but I think they would rather not, if they notice they don't have to.

I know the history behind the creation of Pakistan. Many people in the field thinks that process of making a nation such as Pakistan was due to long suffering and protests which ended with theory that this "Pakistan was formed because Hindu-Muslims of British Raj demanded so".

Lets take this Pakistan back to history, that how it was transformed into a State.
Long before time in early 1920s, no-one would of even thought that there would be a nation in Pakistan that would have mainly Muslim population. Yes dear friend we are talking nation building by British within 30 years, not there was no machine in making such process but rather redevelop and use the ideology which was present in the WWI in making sure both their companies (British Own Assets in South Asia), and their influence remains in this part of the world.

Before WWI British never thought that they will one day loss India. India was like the treasure Box, in the war against Afghans, British new they could lunch another attack against Afghans, but had theoretical reasons that they may loss what they already have, is more then enough, the only problem was Russia. In conclusion general Napoleon Cavagnari wrote that they knew the wealth of England is protected from Russians, even if they didn’t support the Pathans in the case of Russian invasion. British had full confidence that Afghans were not easily to be conquered. However in the main time a treaty with Amir of Afghanistan would reassure British that no such plots would be made against British Raj, In this agreement for a period of time a promise of friendship was made and that British will not attack his kingdom and that Durant line will be set as Buffer Zone. This was assigned by which Afghans lost ½ of Afghan land and ¼ of its total population was to be separated from its motherland named “Afghanistan”. This would be called Northern Frontier also known as NWFP but later from NWFP Pakistan created FATA. NWFP (Sarhad) was to be printed in books as 4th province of Pakistan after declaration of Ayub Khan’s victory in Chitral.

One thing British really didn’t pay attention to was this newly added region entering into their “Empire”. British forces continually battled to control this 2 million people but wasn’t able to, so what they did was to play this divide and rule game which turned out to be successful, because what British was concern was making sure no such danger comes from NW. In 1909 some thousands of men was gathered in Peshawar, British had to surrender and post was emptied within a week British recaptured Peshawar. A city which was not as important as it is today, the city of Peshawar was ending tip of Afghan land, but nevertheless majority were still Pashtuns. The losing of Peshawar for a week was perhaps a warning that these Afghan tribesmen are up to something. British still ignored their voices, in the fallowing years a party from descendents of Afghans was formed, a shocking bomb which gave a solid bone in backing nationalism, and rights of freedom. This was to be known as Khilafat movement.

The history of Khilafat movement is not really thought in the Pakistani high schools, but its history was not as old to be forgotten. Often considered to be called as The Ali Brothers, was a movement by two brothers of Afghan origin, Mulana Shukat Ali Khan and Mulana Mohammad Ali Khan, born to wealthy business family from NWFP. Their main cause was the freedom from British. After trip to Afghanistan, Turkey and Europe, Khilafat movement was strong as ever, after their arrival in India, their support and sorrow was now to be shared amongst millions of Muslims from India this was the marking point of All India Muslim League formed in 1907. The Khilafat movement gave hindu-Muslims a little hope after few skirmishes and clashes that took place between Khilafat supporters from NWF and British. Thousands of bodies to be burned and laid down, the city of Quetta was out of control and British had to retaliate. In the 2 years process a peace was made between British Raj and Khilafat, in which peace was stored. Here we enter a new phase of Indian history that will change the map of India, his name Mohammad Ali Jinnah born as Ithna Ansari believer (Shia school was member of Indian national congress, changed hands and entered All India Muslim League in 1913) In the main time a plan was to be made because British had to reassert its control over India, complication in Europe, and Indian National Congress, the Khilafat movement, was the worse nightmare. Finally after thousands of its members pushed and bullied by the British Officers, members of Khilafat movement were forced to join All India Muslim league. Finally in 1924 British announced Khilafat was no longer recognized movement, but rather a terrorist militancy group from NWFP, and in 1934 a new league (Muslim League) was to be formed, which resulted from disagreements in All Parties Conference of December 1928, in the recommendation by British which ended by stating that All Muslim India League and Indian National Congress cannot be handed power, unless a new nation was to be formed for the Muslim. A year after Jinnah’s formation of his League, British announced their plan openly under Government of India Act 1935 in which two semiautonomous states was to be formed and both had to join New India Federation.

In 1939 WWII begins and British under intense pressure was not able to control India’s militancy which was now growing amongst Hindus as well, British openly blamed Afghanistan for its support to this militancy and because of close ties of Afghan king with Japan and Germany a team of 15,000 was send to “maintain control of the border”. In making sure India is not lost by the hands of Brits the rise of Religious conflict was the only option left. Therefore Few Temples in Fire would due the job, after intense 4 months civil conflict in March, 23, 1940 Mohammad Ali Jinnah openly expressed his support for the Brits recommendation of two state solution to the people of India. It was then the Pakistan movement was born, initially British thought this would not be supported due to mixture of hindu and muslims in the demographics of India, this was to be a hard task, because half of today’s Pakistan’s population was Hindu and Sikhs and other half Muslim. In the progress to save their Company the approval was made in 1946, leaving behind the question of Kashmir between Pakistan and India, and the question of Sarhad between Pakistan and formal enemy and initials anti-Brits, Afghanistan.

Understanding to How it was created, check history of Israel, how they raised to power and how from 25% jews now claims up to 70% of Israel as Jewish land.

Understanding Pakistan’s formation, and their claim of “United Muslim Nation” is very important. One thing to remind our selves the region today we know as Pakistan was created to be a “Muslim” nation while in 1945 this same region it was half non-Muslim.
Be a judge and tell me in the past 10 years what did Pakistan do, that justify itself to be called an Islamic nation.

Like Israelis they kill and bombs the regions that internationally recognized as part of Pakistani map. Like Israelis they conquer and bogus the people for peace and instability. Like Israelis in order to claim they make-up fake stats and documents. Like Israelis they publish false news regarding Muslim, dissing mualana’s and religious respected leaders is a good example, and making false movie regarding “Terrorism” etc etc.

Above all my heart drops, when I see a face of Pashtun in the face dirty-mud hit by a Pak*i bullet.

I know some of you may know history but many don't know and often forgets to the reason why Pakistan was created. You think about it and let me know. Israel=Pakistan in the sense of their maneuver not in the sense of People's nation.

Before you respond against me answer this question first
WHY WAS THIS PAK-ISTAN, a land clean from Hindus was created?

To be continued.....

^^^^

Bunch of nonsense created by an elitist's superfluously view.

Its funny how some members read this and go "ohhhh, awwwww this is our intelligent member."

If you are so content with hating Pakistan your forefathers should have voted in the 46 referendum to join India.

I must remind those on this forum that the anomonisty against the creation and State of Pakistan is of a minority. Do not fall for this hype. They are just trying to gain momentum as they have been trying to do since the creation and have failed ever since and continue to fail and will always fail.

PakistaniSoilder

05-19-2010, 09:53 PM

Let me post here what I posted in my other thread and please read this carefully.

Afghan people in general do not give a damn about Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in Afghanistan or on the cyber space. It is only the ethno nationalists who are igniting this issue. Their ethnic interests is alot more dear to them than the interests of Afghanistan. Afghanistan has lost its territory in the past, but why dont these guys talk about other parts of the lost territories? These ethno nationalists and their leaders have long screwed over Afghanistan, if we see the divisions in Afghanistan, it is because of these ethnic oriented policies by the rulers in the last century.

Admin Khan

05-19-2010, 10:08 PM

Thread has been locked, All I have witnessed is inflammatory posts. Nothing productive is being discussed. PM also sent to a few members who have intentionally insulted others.