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Dan. You mention someone doing power displays and that you do these things and that his isn't aiki. That sounds like you do 'power' displays also then. Aiki wise. Does he say yours is Aiki and if so what does he call his?

The demos you describe show what? Effectiveness of your aiki? (I assume so) However I don't see it as significant or unusual myself. Maybe 'out there' it is.

For instance, lifting someone up back to their feet from kokyu dosa. When you say power display equalling collision of forces are you implying you havn't met anyone who can do that without such?

Sword tricks. Are you saying you havn't met anyone who can cut through your sword held as you describe?

Regards.G.

Graham
I think these are areas that you have expressed your understanding of here on Aikiweb, especially sword and bokken. With that background these seem to be questions that best could have been ask in person while Dan Harden was in London recently. You could have had your answers first hand so to speak.

Mr. McGrew,
From your posts you seem to be passionate about your study of aikido. I wonder if there is any reason that would keep you from going and checking out some of this "IS" stuff in person?

With all respect,
Steve Trinkle

Steve,

If you had read all my posts (a hard thing to do at this point) you would know that I have said all along that it's ok to look at different arts. Doshu said so himself in the Preface to Aikido and the Chinese Martial Arts (Sugawara and Xing) in 1995.

It is difficult to know what the IS being discussed is. Hunter gives us an example of a Sensei he trains with. Harden says what I do is better. Harden says he can see that he can see from a video that it's not the real Aiki he's showing, and yet it is often said that we cannot see the secret he has, and that O Sensei had, unless we know the secret. Starts to sound like invisible clothing of the finest invisible silk. So I don't know what this Aiki is supposed to be. No one has bothered to define it. Some say it's Daito-ryu. Others say its Chinese. If "it" exists it can be described. The failure to do so raises my suspicions.

That does not mean that what they are doing, whatever it is, is not good on it's own terms. The fact that it may be good does not tell us how it translates to Aikido and does not support the wild claims that have been made. They are describing a skill set which is not Aikido. It may be PART of Aikido already. It is not Aikido. O Sensei continued to develop the art of Aikido up until the end. It was never perfected. Saotome Sensei told me this personally. That's good enough for me.

Having said that, I personally will not train with people who repeatedly make such bold statements that contradict what my teacher has told us about what O Sensei told him. For example, we again have Mark claiming that O Sensei didn't teach much. Completely false. Saotome Sensei has written that he took ukemi from O Sensei almost every day. Mark is implying that Saotome is not telling the truth. I will not, personally, train with people who do such things. I don't care how good they are. You asked me a personal question, so I answered it on a personal level.

I have been exposed to other complimentary arts and their application to Aikido far more than you realize. Though I am reminded often that I am a low rank non Budo man, I have been around many great martial artists. I am not opposed to people doing whatever they want outside of Aikido and bringing in the parts that don't get in the way of other people continuing to train AIKIDO. If they start insisting on their notion of Aiki (meaning whatever this IS Aiki is) then I have a problem with it. Smoke if you want. Just don't smoke next to me.

You can find it "interesting" all you want. The research is there to prove that fact. Yes, fact.

"later on" in Ueshiba's life:

1. There was no exhaustive, extensive training with Ueshiba later on in his life.
2. The students didn't get a whole lot of hands on time with Ueshiba. NOTE: This does *NOT* mean that they didn't get hands on time, didn't learn from him, or didn't train with Ueshiba. It means that the myths of having extensive training are wrong. I'm certain that all of them wished they had much more time with Ueshiba than they actually got.
3. The training schedule of both Iwama and Tokyo are out there. Look them up and let us know just how long Ueshiba actually taught each day.
4. Ueshiba had a very busy training schedule and he also had many visitors. Look it up. Where was he and when and for how long? What happened when visitors came?
5. Kisshomaru, Tohei, and other seniors taught most of the classes. Kisshomaru taught most of the "private" classes. Tohei taught a lot of students.
6. A lot of students went outside of hombu to learn. Dig into it and find where some of them went and then come back here and let us know what you've found.
7. Ueshiba trained a lot. He was probably obsessive/compulsive about it. But, he did not teach a lot.

I find it amazing that people would not do the actual research and understand a bit better before they think they are "experts" on him.

For the rest, please do not take this as detracting from the students of Ueshiba. A lot were young and eager to learn. They wanted to learn. They had felt Ueshiba at some point and wanted what he had. Some of them did everything they could to learn or "steal" the secret, even going outside aikido or going to private dojos or going to pre-war students. Their dedication and desire to learn is never in question.

1) I disagree. Those who didn't get that say that.

2) I know of no myths of people saying they had long extensive training periods with Ueshiba. I do know mentioned in this forum a number of times the myth that he was a virtual figurehead doing not much teaching at all.

3) He taught wherever he was. He wouldn't therefore be on a schedule sheet would he.
4) So he's so busy training and hosting that he does no teaching? When you are the capo de capo and have teachers teaching for you then you are supervising many things including those teachers. Including personal training, research and developement etc.etc. Always teaching.

5) All teachers taught. A heirarchy developed. People assigned different tasks. So what? That doesn't equal so he was sitting on his backside somewhere twiddling his thumbs.

6) Why? What's a lot of students? How many didn't go elsewhere? How many were actually sent for various reasons? What's your point?

Graham
I think these are areas that you have expressed your understanding of here on Aikiweb, especially sword and bokken. With that background these seem to be questions that best could have been ask in person while Dan Harden was in London recently. You could have had your answers first hand so to speak.

Gary

My questions are quite apt for a forum. Those questions don't need personal meeting. You still go on about first hand experience. I don't need it. I don't need first hand experience of taikwondo either or many other things. So I'm missing your point once again.

My questions are quite apt for a forum. Those questions don't need personal meeting. You still go on about first hand experience. I don't need it. I don't need first hand experience of taikwondo either or many other things. So I'm missing your point once again.

Also, as pointed out up-thread, ability to write clearly has no particular correlation with physical skills. Ueshiba Sensei himself was completely illiterate in English and by most accounts difficult at best to understand in Japanese.

For example, we again have Mark claiming that O Sensei didn't teach much. Completely false. Saotome Sensei has written that he took ukemi from O Sensei almost every day. Mark is implying that Saotome is not telling the truth.

Are you 100% sure Saotome Sensei was telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Aikido is not only a physical art, but a very subtle one. Internal skills are more subtle yet.

Maybe we should just ignore any post (or poster) who says things like "I don't need first hand experience," or "I will not train with X." Such people are clearly not interested in actually testing their preconceived notions.

Of course, then we would immediately have to abandon almost all threads like this one. And where's the fun in that?

There must be a video, somewhere, that is a good representative of the application to Aikido of what is being described. Even if those with the secret don't think we can see it, they could humor us if they had confidence in their claims. They could point to specific screen shots and sections of the video to highlight what it is they think they see. If you point to O Sensei do not merely point to the grounding displays. I want to see the application to attack situations. I'm sure the responses will take the form of you can't see it and why should we prove anything to you... but you are already trying to prove something to me and the majority of Aikido practitioners who still believe in the "modern" Aikido notion of Aiki. That's why you are posting. Unless it is merely to create a buzz to support seminars and books.

By the way, does Harden teach the secret to breaking the bundle of arrows under the arm? Do IS people claims that display was the result of the same skill they want to call Aiki?

Mostly he was praying and doing his own solo training, by all accounts.

During periods when he was physically present in Iwama, he probably was not teaching in Tokyo. No one has claimed that he had the ability to teleport...

There are plenty of modern examples of teachers with such heavy seminar schedules that they do very little teaching at their own dojos.

Katherine

So you believe that? By all accounts? Aikido was all part of his spiritual training, not sitting somewhere praying. That was part of his disciplined regime yes. As a replacement leaving him solo training? Come on....

Hunt around and you'll find plenty of people who had many lessons from him up to the day he died.

A master never stops teaching. If no one was around he'd be teaching the insects taisabaki. That's the reality of someone like him. The reality of that position and type of person is what needs to be understood in my opinion not what bill or jack said.

I have a friend and when he hasn't been seen for a while and students complain they are missing him and ask where he is I just laugh and say he's somewhere no doubt teaching someone something.

You know the person then you know what they will be doing no matter where they are in the world.

Those who don't know then say he wasn't just because they cant see him.

Add to this sometimes, probably much more than sometimes for a master, he has to let others carry on for a while with what he has given them to practice for it's not worth giving them more until they have reality and indeed ability in what they were left to learn.

My questions are quite apt for a forum. Those questions don't need personal meeting. You still go on about first hand experience. I don't need it. I don't need first hand experience of taikwondo either or many other things. So I'm missing your point once again.

Having said that, I personally will not train with people who repeatedly make such bold statements that contradict what my teacher has told us about what O Sensei told him. For example, we again have Mark claiming that O Sensei didn't teach much. Completely false. Saotome Sensei has written that he took ukemi from O Sensei almost every day. Mark is implying that Saotome is not telling the truth. I will not, personally, train with people who do such things. I don't care how good they are. You asked me a personal question, so I answered it on a personal level.

You know, some people like to say that they read somewhere that clouds are actually fluffy marshmallows filled with helium to keep them up there. They read this and they see pictures of the clouds and think, gee, that must be right. So, when people say, no, clouds are, in reality, "a visible mass of liquid droplets or frozen crystals made of water and/or various chemicals suspended in the atmosphere above the surface of a planetary body", why those people say you're lying. Maybe Chicken Little was right and those marshmallows are losing their helium. I dunno. It's just amazing that some people don't do any research. A small example from my upcoming book:

Ueshiba split his time between the Tokyo hombu dojo and Iwama for a short period. Stan Pranin notes that Ueshiba actually lived in Iwama for 15 years after the war ended. (20) Kanai responds that after he started at hombu around 1958, Ueshiba split his time between Iwama and Tokyo. (21)

Until 1955, hombu dojo was not very active. Between 1955 and 1959, more students started coming to the dojo to train, including foreign students. Even then, Ueshiba was not a regular teacher there. He would show up whenever he wanted. (22)

Nishio remarks that when he started, around 1951, it was six months before he saw Ueshiba. (23) In fact, Nishio goes on to note that there weren't many students and that Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei were the teachers. (24)

Robert Frager remarks that he only saw Ueshiba occasionally during his first year, which would be sometime in the mid 1960s. (25) Walther Krenner also notes that Ueshiba wasn't teaching regularly around 1967. (26)

Kisshomaru Ueshiba states that his father was "besieged by visitors starting from early in the morning and he spent large amounts of time in receiving them". Kisshomaru also notes that his father traveled often. (27)

Taking a closer look when Ueshiba was at the Tokyo hombu dojo, what time, or times, did he teach?

The uchideshi's day begins around 6 a.m., when he cleans the dojo and the grounds outside. The first class of the day starts at 6:30. This class is usually taught by Uyeshiba himself, the Osensei, which means the old teacher. The young uchideshi sit on their knees during this hour, which can be an uncomfortable and tiring experience. The first class is usually taken up mostly with discussions about God and nature - Uyeshiba doing the talking and the uchideshi listening. It is in this hour that the young uchideshi is exposed to Zen philosophy and the deeper meanings of aikido - its nonviolent and defensive perfection and understanding. If this all sounds rather remote and difficult to grasp for a Western reader, he may be interested to know that the young Japanese uchideshi often feels the same way. The 83-year-old Uyeshiba many times speaks about highly abstract topics, lapsing usually into ancient Japanese phraseology, so that his listeners often find it difficult to follow him. When this long hour is over, the young uchideshi exuberantly spill out onto the dojo floor for a half-hour exercise break. All the restless energy pent up within seems to come out and they throw themselves into the practice of their techniques with each other. At 8 a.m. begins the real study of aikido techniques. This class is taught by a different instructor every day, and is attended by a large number of persons from outside the dojo. Sometimes this hour is taught by Uyeshiba's son, or Waka sensei as he is called. Sometimes Tohei sensei, the greatest of Uyeshiba's followers, instructs the class. (28)

When Ueshiba did teach, he often spent a large amount of time talking and the students just wanted to practice techniques. (28) (29) Ueshiba traveled often. He also entertained visitors. He only taught the morning class at hombu dojo when he was there. From the mid 1940s to the mid 1950s, he was rarely in Tokyo. From the mid 1950s to the mid 1960s, he split his time between Iwama and Tokyo and still traveled occasionally to various other places. In the late 1960s, Ueshiba's health was declining and he rarely taught. Not even getting into the subject of just how confusing Ueshiba's teaching style was, the students of Ueshiba never had extensive training time with him, either pre-war or post-war. What time there was, the post-war students focused on techniques and throwing each other around.

A master never stops teaching. If no one was around he'd be teaching the insects taisabaki. That's the reality of someone like him. The reality of that position and type of person is what needs to be understood in my opinion not what bill or jack said.

I have a friend and when he hasn't been seen for a while and students complain they are missing him and ask where he is I just laugh and say he's somewhere no doubt teaching someone something.

Sure. But if Ueshiba Sensei is off teaching tai sabaki to the insects in Iwama while Saotome Sensei is training in Tokyo, Saotome Sensei probably isn't learning much from him. The question is not whether Ueshiba Sensei was teaching, but what and to whom.

Sure. But if Ueshiba Sensei is off teaching tai sabaki to the insects in Iwama while Saotome Sensei is training in Tokyo, Saotome Sensei probably isn't learning much from him. The question is not whether Ueshiba Sensei was teaching, but what and to whom.

Katherine

Maybe, but it's not a question at all to me. To me the question is were they, Saotome or whoever getting on with what they were meant to be learning sufficiently instead of wondering where he was.

Let no person forget that you are trying to sell a book. Let no person forget why you are trying to make the case that O Sensei did not teach after the war. You want to claim that the only real AIKI Aikido occurred before the war. That is not what O Sensei himself said. He said Aikido became something new after the war. That is not what students of his report that he said. Numerous students.

So though I don't want to bother to check on the actual sources in Aiki News that you draw upon, Etc., some basic points become obvious rather quickly... in relation to Saotome Sensei, who you imply with your statements about people believing made up things, obviously, given that you are responding to my reporting of the things he said:

1) Saotome Sensei met O Sensei in 1955
2) The spiritual talks that O Sensei gave were part of the instruction. I know you don't like that, but it's true.
3) Your slippery definition of what substantial training was not withstanding, O Sensei supervised the people who were teaching under him, often walking into classes unannounced for a short mini lesson, and this was his way of teaching his instructors. He also spoke with them, at least some of them, which also was instruction.
4) Saotome Sensei often traveled with O Sensei.

You and company have an agenda. Do you have training in historical analysis? I do. I don't intend to teach you for free. You need to go get a Ph.D. if you are going to play historian. I am not interested in all the work that would be involved in undermining your agenda and efforts to support it based on your historical research. Others will. If you want to do a good job you will have to deal with ALL of the available evidence. I can tell you, here's a hint, that personal narratives (like diaries) carry a great deal of weight in historical analysis. More so than edited newspaper articles.

It is simply not the case that "modern" Aikido, that is real Aiki, was not passed down by O Sensei to his students. Even if, before the war, he would have accepted your definition of Aiki (whatever that is) - though this is unlikely given how Takeda Sensei and his son described Aiki - It is abundantly clear that he developed a new definition of Aiki for Aikido after the war (I don't believe that but I'm just throwing you a bone).

At any rate, I was answering a personal question about why I don't want to train with you and others. You have answered it again. To train with you is to accept your claims about Saotome Sensei's allegedly faulty memory or outright dishonesty. I don't accept your claims.

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

You know, some people like to say that they read somewhere that clouds are actually fluffy marshmallows filled with helium to keep them up there. They read this and they see pictures of the clouds and think, gee, that must be right. So, when people say, no, clouds are, in reality, "a visible mass of liquid droplets or frozen crystals made of water and/or various chemicals suspended in the atmosphere above the surface of a planetary body", why those people say you're lying. Maybe Chicken Little was right and those marshmallows are losing their helium. I dunno. It's just amazing that some people don't do any research. A small example from my upcoming book:

Ueshiba split his time between the Tokyo hombu dojo and Iwama for a short period. Stan Pranin notes that Ueshiba actually lived in Iwama for 15 years after the war ended. (20) Kanai responds that after he started at hombu around 1958, Ueshiba split his time between Iwama and Tokyo. (21)

Until 1955, hombu dojo was not very active. Between 1955 and 1959, more students started coming to the dojo to train, including foreign students. Even then, Ueshiba was not a regular teacher there. He would show up whenever he wanted. (22)

Nishio remarks that when he started, around 1951, it was six months before he saw Ueshiba. (23) In fact, Nishio goes on to note that there weren't many students and that Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei were the teachers. (24)

Robert Frager remarks that he only saw Ueshiba occasionally during his first year, which would be sometime in the mid 1960s. (25) Walther Krenner also notes that Ueshiba wasn't teaching regularly around 1967. (26)

Kisshomaru Ueshiba states that his father was "besieged by visitors starting from early in the morning and he spent large amounts of time in receiving them". Kisshomaru also notes that his father traveled often. (27)

Taking a closer look when Ueshiba was at the Tokyo hombu dojo, what time, or times, did he teach?

The uchideshi's day begins around 6 a.m., when he cleans the dojo and the grounds outside. The first class of the day starts at 6:30. This class is usually taught by Uyeshiba himself, the Osensei, which means the old teacher. The young uchideshi sit on their knees during this hour, which can be an uncomfortable and tiring experience. The first class is usually taken up mostly with discussions about God and nature - Uyeshiba doing the talking and the uchideshi listening. It is in this hour that the young uchideshi is exposed to Zen philosophy and the deeper meanings of aikido - its nonviolent and defensive perfection and understanding. If this all sounds rather remote and difficult to grasp for a Western reader, he may be interested to know that the young Japanese uchideshi often feels the same way. The 83-year-old Uyeshiba many times speaks about highly abstract topics, lapsing usually into ancient Japanese phraseology, so that his listeners often find it difficult to follow him. When this long hour is over, the young uchideshi exuberantly spill out onto the dojo floor for a half-hour exercise break. All the restless energy pent up within seems to come out and they throw themselves into the practice of their techniques with each other. At 8 a.m. begins the real study of aikido techniques. This class is taught by a different instructor every day, and is attended by a large number of persons from outside the dojo. Sometimes this hour is taught by Uyeshiba's son, or Waka sensei as he is called. Sometimes Tohei sensei, the greatest of Uyeshiba's followers, instructs the class. (28)

When Ueshiba did teach, he often spent a large amount of time talking and the students just wanted to practice techniques. (28) (29) Ueshiba traveled often. He also entertained visitors. He only taught the morning class at hombu dojo when he was there. From the mid 1940s to the mid 1950s, he was rarely in Tokyo. From the mid 1950s to the mid 1960s, he split his time between Iwama and Tokyo and still traveled occasionally to various other places. In the late 1960s, Ueshiba's health was declining and he rarely taught. Not even getting into the subject of just how confusing Ueshiba's teaching style was, the students of Ueshiba never had extensive training time with him, either pre-war or post-war. What time there was, the post-war students focused on techniques and throwing each other around.

If you had read all my posts (a hard thing to do at this point) you would know that I have said all along that it's ok to look at different arts. Doshu said so himself in the Preface to Aikido and the Chinese Martial Arts (Sugawara and Xing) in 1995.

It is difficult to know what the IS being discussed is. Hunter gives us an example of a Sensei he trains with. Harden says what I do is better. Harden says he can see that he can see from a video that it's not the real Aiki he's showing, and yet it is often said that we cannot see the secret he has, and that O Sensei had, unless we know the secret. Starts to sound like invisible clothing of the finest invisible silk. So I don't know what this Aiki is supposed to be. No one has bothered to define it. Some say it's Daito-ryu. Others say its Chinese. If "it" exists it can be described. The failure to do so raises my suspicions.

That does not mean that what they are doing, whatever it is, is not good on it's own terms. The fact that it may be good does not tell us how it translates to Aikido and does not support the wild claims that have been made. They are describing a skill set which is not Aikido. It may be PART of Aikido already. It is not Aikido. O Sensei continued to develop the art of Aikido up until the end. It was never perfected. Saotome Sensei told me this personally. That's good enough for me.

Having said that, I personally will not train with people who repeatedly make such bold statements that contradict what my teacher has told us about what O Sensei told him. For example, we again have Mark claiming that O Sensei didn't teach much. Completely false. Saotome Sensei has written that he took ukemi from O Sensei almost every day. Mark is implying that Saotome is not telling the truth. I will not, personally, train with people who do such things. I don't care how good they are. You asked me a personal question, so I answered it on a personal level.

I have been exposed to other complimentary arts and their application to Aikido far more than you realize. Though I am reminded often that I am a low rank non Budo man, I have been around many great martial artists. I am not opposed to people doing whatever they want outside of Aikido and bringing in the parts that don't get in the way of other people continuing to train AIKIDO. If they start insisting on their notion of Aiki (meaning whatever this IS Aiki is) then I have a problem with it. Smoke if you want. Just don't smoke next to me.

Mr. McGrew,
Thank you for your response. While I wish it were otherwise, you've made your position very clear.
Sincerely,
Steve Trinkle

How objective are any of us, really, about our teachers? Or our parents? How much less objective are we likely to be about a teacher or parent who is a towering, larger than life figure?

I think expecting every word that any of the uchi deshi says about Ueshiba Sensei to be the complete, literal truth is setting an unreasonable standard.

No, I do not claim that any of the uchi deshi are lying. Just that their recollections are only part, and not necessarily the most accurate part, of the historical record. This is why historians (in any field) seek out as many sources as they can find.

12. Terry was a story teller and he told a few about O'Sensei, one of which revolves around Terry telling O'Sensei how impressed he (Terry) was with Wang Shu Jin and O'Sensei's physical response which is nothing anyone else has every talked about being able to do.

Interestingly it was the Shihan that Stan trained with who revealed that Ueshiba was not a daily presence at Hombu. I know someone else who personally trained there who echoe's that same comment, and also said when he showed up training would change and they would begin....pushing on each other.
So I guess Mr McGrew is calling Stan Pranin and a veritable host of Aikido's shihan all liars.
Poo poo Mr. McGrew.
Dan

Let no person forget that you are trying to sell a book. Let no person forget why you are trying to make the case that O Sensei did not teach after the war. You want to claim that the only real AIKI Aikido occurred before the war. That is not what O Sensei himself said. He said Aikido became something new after the war. That is not what students of his report that he said. Numerous students.

Mr. McGrew,

Please address me as Mr. Murray until such time as you actually understand what my claims are. Up to this point, you have been completely,utterly, and entirely wrong in your deductions of them. Also, please do not denigrate my abilities until you have a complete understanding of what they are. I would ask that you address the subject and issues provided rather than the character of the person posting.

Quote:

Ken McGrew wrote:

So though I don't want to bother to check on the actual sources in Aiki News that you draw upon,