Pregnant woman arrested after suicide attempt

While perusing my Twitter account, I came across an infuriating article entitled “Pregnant woman who ate rat poison charged.” It describes how a woman in Indiana who happened to be 33 weeks pregnant attempted suicide by poisoning herself, but survived the incident. Her baby was born alive; however, it died at the age of three days due to complications from the poison. Incredibly, the mother is now being charged with murder of the baby.

One of my psychiatric patients I’ve grown close with also tried to commit suicide. She also happens to be a mother. After talking with her, I understand that people who attempt suicide are very, very sick. When you are in the depths of depression, it doesn’t matter that you have children, or that your family loves you, or that you are pregnant. You just want to stop living. You believe with all your being that the world would be a better place without you. The consequences of your actions simply don’t cross your mind because you are completely consumed by feelings of sadness. I truly believe this was the case with the Indiana woman.

This woman already has to cope with her depression and the death of her baby. On top of that, now she must deal with an accusation of murder. There is no way that consuming the rat poison was specifically meant to kill the fetus, as the prosecutors are claiming. She wanted to kill herself. In my opinion, this woman needs intensive psychiatric treatment and support from the community, not additional legal trouble. Do you agree? Or do you think this woman deserves to go to jail?

42 Responses

I don’t think this woman deserves to go to jail. It won’t put her on a road to recovery, and I could only see the experience as detrimental, making her a less functional person.

However I’m also the type of person that doesn’t believe in punishment for punishment’s sake, which many people do. The logic is that the person did something bad, and should be punished, even if said punishment offers no clear path to making anything better for the woman, her dead child, her family, or society as a whole. No thanks on that one.

Quite the ethical and legal quandary. Or is it? Although I can sympathize with the emotional demons that this woman must have been dealing with in order to feel that suicide was the only way out, her depression should not be taken into consideration. It’s no excuse; it still doesn’t change the fact that her actions directly resulted in the death of a newborn baby.

I don’t have an answer as to how harshly she should be punished, but it definitely should not go unpunished. 25 to life I think would be extreme, but time served with psychiatric care would be too lenient. We have a responsbility to protect those that can’t protect themselves, and we don’t want to send a message to desperate mothers-to-be that there won’t be repercussions if your selfish actions cause the death of your baby. Of course this begs the question of “what about abortion?” “What about pregnant drug addicts?” No easy answers I guess.

I am sure that there is much more to this story than the sad facts as stated in the post. If this young woman was that set on suicide,was she capable of realizing the fetus was also doomed? I cannot imagine the desperation she must have been experiencing.

I have a feeling that the anti-abortionists are behind this type of “crime”.
If you want to kill yourself then I think it might follow that you feel the world is unsafe for your unborn child. I certainly do not see it as malice towards the fetus only.
Interesting question. I don’t feel jail would be the correct move, but maybe a psychiatric hospital.

Allow her to get the treatment she needs and hopefully she will be able to recover from this tragedy. You cannot empathize or sympathize unless you have been in a similar situation. Wanting to be dead is wanting to be dead. Period. You have no thoughts or concerns for anyone except yourself. You simply no longer wish to exist. This woman will most likely try to commit suicide again without treatment.

I agree that someone who is severely depressed is not thinking clearly and those who term her actions as “selfish” lack the ability to think outside themselves. Severely depressed people are incapable of thinking about repercussions. Punishment in this case is inappropriate and ineffective. The poor woman is already in a hell some people cannot imagine.

I absolutely, unequivically agree with you. Jail is not the answer for this woman. It’s very unfortunate that she was arrested at all. It’s obvious the public does not have to be protected from her. She needs extreme psychiatric help, not prison.

I think the fact’s should be determind first, was the suicide attemp caused by her being pregnant if so the charge is reasonable.If it was from something else, then maybe as part of the treatment plan for her should volentary sterization should be considerd as their is no lasting cure from depression.

I understand how many of you can think that this is sad. She is still a murderer. I am a mother and have also been depressed but have never felt the need to kill my child. A 33 week pregnancy is a viable child
she should be put in jail for the rest of her life.

Wouldn’t this all depend on the law in the specific state? If Indiana deems a fetus is a person if it could survive out of the womb then the charge should be manslaughter of some degree, possibly murder if they can prove her intent was to kill the fetus as well as herself. Having had a brother who commit suicide I think I can come at this from a very different angle. Depression is not the correct work for the state of mind, it is different, it is darker and physical not necessairly mental. For the record…if you want to die people find you dead, they do not find you poisoned. Taking all of that into consideration this woman needs to be punished to some degree. It they charge her with manslaughter the sentence will be lighter and medical services/facilities are available in most prisons now as are universities. She should be charged with a crime because that is what she committed. She’s lucky that Indiana does not seem to have a law against suicide other wise they could take a felony or misd. to what she’s already charged with. Some states do state that it is illegal to kill yourself and will prosecute, hence why euthenasia is illegal most everywhere. As none of know her frame of mind or intent, we all really have no place to try her in the press, I for one still have faith in the justice system and believe that the district attorney might not more about this than what we can read in the newspaper or on the web.

How dare we who have NEVER been in a place that is so cold, so dark and so lonely even begin to judge this woman. As I sit in a public place writing this comment the tears are streaming down my face. This poor woman COULD NOT help herself.
I lost a very dear friend this past winter to suicide. She was a young woman with two wonderful kids and an extremely supportive spouse. She had been searching, a never easy to navigate health care system for years to try and get the help she so desperately needed. She had everything to live for, but her depression trumped it all. It may seem as though it was her choice to end her life, but her depression manifested itself in such a horrible way.
To say that she couldn’t foresee the consequences of her actions is a gross understatement. We spoke to each other everyday. Her death zapped all of the energy from my body and left a hole that is more vast than I could have ever imagined. And yes, I have experienced the loss of many loved ones, including my parents. I can’t even begin to comprehend the loss her family must feel.
So for those of you who are so quick to judge, just thank God you or any of your loved ones have never been in that place.

Speaking as the survivor of two attempts upon my life, until my official diagnosis of bipolar disorder, I can empathize with Ms. Shuai regarding the total and complete and helplessness she felt in that moment as she ingested said poison. However, her awful dilemma begs the question that if she had unsuccessfully attempted to end her life in another fashion [such as asphyxiation by hanging, or a firearm], if Indiana authorities would even be pressing these trumped-up charges to begin with?

Thanks for spotlighting the critical complications that result from depression. I too, at times, felt that if I could no longer be self-sufficient, then I would rather end my life than be swept away by another episode. Maybe Ms. Shuai found herself caught between a cultural barrier where Far Easteren cultures deny mental illness?

In the five years since my diagnosis, I’ve lost four jobs, burned countless bridges, and had to rebuild my life from the rubble more than twice already. Without proper diagnosis and treatment, you truly do feel subhuman.

I sincerely hope Indiana snaps to it’s senses and treats Ms. Shuai with the sensitivity she deserves amidst the darkest hour of her life.

I’m sad to say this But they should allow her to finish what she started.
She would be better off not living. With the knowledge that she was the cause of her babies death.It would more than likely just be a matter of time before she does herself in.
Why force her to live ?? Sounds like she has suffered enough.

The problem is that if this case is NOT prosecuted, where does that bring us? There was a local case not too long ago wherein a pregnant woman was bar hopping in Glens Falls, and when she was arrested (for what, I can’t recall), she had a ridiculously high ETOH level.

If we don’t go after this woman, aren’t we setting the precedent of “You can do what you want as long as you’re depressed”?

I’m on the fence with this case. On the one hand, she’s clearly very ill. But on the other, her actions directly led to the death of a three day old child.

Tough one. I have been suicidal. I made the decision, gathered the pills, got my affairs in order, cleaned my house, and was at peace with my plan. I have been in her shoes.

I am ambivalent here. The empathetic side of me knows that it was not her intention to harm the baby alone. She wanted the emotional pain to stop. You will do just about anything to make the pain stop. You truly feel that you are a burden on your loved ones and that they will benefit tremendously by your death. I understand that it does not make sense to anyone unless you have been there. Even now, it is difficult for me to resurrect those feelings. She needs proper mental health care, support, and understanding.

The other side of me knows that I would never have done anything to harm anyone else (physically) when taking my own life. I would never have driven my car into on-coming traffic, I would never have fired a gun at an officer so that he would shoot me (suicide by cop), or anything else where someone other than myself could even get hurt. If I had done that then I would have considered myself culpable in their injury or death. She is directly responsible for that child’s death. However, I do feel that her mental state at the time of the offense warrants an insanity defense. Once she is mentally stable perhaps some sort of incarceration would be warranted.

I feel awful for this woman. It doesn’t seem that her intent was to murder her baby… however, the child is dead because of actions taken by his mother. I think she should be charged. It seems that many criminals are mentally unstable when they commit a crime… but that’s for a court to decide.

I disagree with you.. I have had terrible depression my whole life.. At one time i thought the world would be better off without me however i never attempted suicide.. This women KNEW that by killing herself her baby would most likely die as well.. You are assuming this woman is dumb.. Depressed people are not dumb.. we actually tend to overthink situations until it drives us nuts.. her plan backfired, her baby died and she survived.. Yes she needs treatment but im sorry, she KNEW she was pregnant, she KNEW that if she killed herself the baby would die.. Yes there should be a punishment..

I am not surprised at the judgment that is being passed on this woman. When mental health is involved, the individual is not in their right mind. Depression and suicide are physiological afflictions, not “choices” or “decisions”. I’m so glad to hear that so many people possess superhuman strength and the ability to overcome every single obstacle that comes their way. Kudos to you, superstars (enter sarcasm here). I’ve been a Licensed Social Worker for a number of years and have patients who don’t want to feel depressed or suicidal and have tried everything (yes, even ECT) AND NOTHING WORKS. They are still depressed and want to kill themselves.

“I think the fact’s should be determind first, was the suicide attemp caused by her being pregnant if so the charge is reasonable.If it was from something else, then maybe as part of the treatment plan for her should volentary sterization should be considerd as their is no lasting cure from depression.”

RichS – Wow!
There is no “lasting cure” for alcoholism either – so given your logic, anyone who hurts someone with a car while drunk should also agree to voluntary sterilization?? You might get some wide spread support for castration of repeat rapists – but history has shown us that some sort of mandated sterilization of anyone who falls outside of a “norm” is a very slippery and dangerous ethical slope.

What we know about this case in total is a media-fed fraction of the facts. Did this woman cry out for help that went unanswered? I think her mental state at the time needs to be probed and her condition evaluated. Once that is all sorted out, the appropriate course of action is to treat her, then decide on an appropriate course of maintenance treatment, if her condition can, in fact, be stabilized. Given what I have been told so far, it isn’t clear at all if incarceration should be on the table.

The level of bleeding heart empathy towards this woman staggers my mind. Although I don’t consider this woman a criminal, and I don’t dispute that she needs help, the extent of empathy expressed by many commenters here is exactly what is wrong with society today. People need to be held accountable for their actions. We need to remember that for every crime of this nature there is a victim, and their rights and deserved justices supercede the feelings that the perpetrator was experiencing. It amazes me that we live in a society that argues in favor of felonies against hoarders that couldn’t properly care for all of their animals, but yet absolute sympathy for a woman who’s actions caused the death of an innocent baby.

@ sweetness – you hit the nail right on the head! This woman “had no thoughts or concerns for anyone except herself” That seems to sum up most people with psychological issues. They expect everyone to be understanding and forgive them because they have an ailment; because it’s not their fault; it’s out of their control. Aside from severe mentally challenged disabilities, people are responsible for their actions.

I think some states have a law that if the fetus is a certain number of weeks old it is considered a crime. In Cali. with the murder of Lacy Peterson at 8months, he was charged with two murders. I don’t know if they apply the same statue to an attempted suicide by a pregnant woman.
I don’t think she should be sentenced. I do thinks inpatient psychiatric to help stabilize her and look at what prompted her self destructive actions would be warranted. I also think that inpatient could help her to cope with her feelings after learning the baby died is most beneficial. If the courts want to be helpful, mandating inpatient psych and long term outpatient counseling would be best.

I do not believe @ Sweetness was saying this woman was selfish. The point is, for these folks this is NOT a choice. The same way a stroke or a seizure is not a chioce. People whose depression manifests in this horrible way, are trying to stop the pain. The unbearable emotional AND physical pain.

Sure she’s crazy…just look at her, can’t you tell, and why should it matter? Boo freeking hoo if she’s was suicidal. Twenty five years at hard labor with a daily fist full of Prozac and 3 or 4 1000mg.Thorazine suppositories should snap her right out of it. If it doesn’t, and she ends up killing herself while in jail…who cares? She was trying to kill herself anyway, right? This truly is a win-win situation..on the off chance that she wasn’t crazy/suicidal and was just out to waste the kid…well, ha, ha..we got our pound of flesh either way. I hope they make it a death penalty case. I am sure that we can medicate her enough to make her act normal right up to the point where we strap her to the gurney, start the I.V. and administer a few doses of…Good Old, American Justice!

You’re right Lisa, that’s not how sweetness meant it, but that’s what she said, and it is a fact. They often don’t think of anyone but themselves. You can’t compare depression to strokes and seizures. Depression is an affliction that may be out of their control, but they still know right from wrong and they are perfectly capable and in control of thinking of others instead of just themselves.