Cliff Lee Rumors: Monday

Yesterday Cliff Lee had another dominant outing and the Dodgers, Yankees, Cardinals and Phillies had scouts in Detroit to watch it. We'll keep track of all the day's Cliff Lee rumors right here, so check back later in the day to see if we have moved this post back to the top of the page with updates.

The Twins aren't close to a deal for Lee, a team source tells LaVelle E. Neal III of the Star Tribune (via Twitter).

There are "interesting discussions" and "possibilities" for a Lee-to-Minnesota deal, tweets Jon Heyman of SI.

The Reds have talked to the Mariners about Lee, according to John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer. While tampering rules prevent GM Walt Jocketty from commenting on Lee in particular, Fay believes that his words infer that the 2008 AL Cy Young winner would be a player of interest.

“I will say this: We’re looking at any way we can to improve the club,” said the GM. “To improve the club, it would have to be a pretty significant player to do that. We have a lot of good things going. We don’t want to disrupt that.”

Fay writes that it will take more than Yonder Alonso, a trade candidate mentioned by ESPN's Buster Olney over the weekend, to land Lee. Edinson Volquez's performance upon his return will also have an impact on the Reds' interest in making a deal.

The Rangers, Twins, Yankees and Mets are among the teams having the most active conversations with the Mariners about Lee, according to Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. The Dodgers have also discussed the left-hander with the Mariners.

The Tigers, Phillies and Cardinals have been scouting Lee, but those teams are not pursuing him as aggressively.

Some of Morosi's sources believe the Mariners would rather obtain hitters than pitchers, while others don't believe position matters to GM Jack Zduriencik. There is consensus that the Mariners prefer prospects who are close to contributing in the major leagues.

In my opinion, the only position that a trade would greatly help out is SS. And if they traded for Cliff Lee and not a bat, I would like that move better personally.

Having Verlander, Lee, and Scherzer (don’t hate, since he came back from the minors he has a 2.62 ERA, and 11.28 K/9 in 44.2 innings and 7 starts) in the same rotation would definitely be a force in the postseason, something Dombrowski should consider.

Yonder Alonso – Juan Francisco – Matt Maloney and Sam Lecure
Alonso is blocked by Votto, Juan is a power bat, Maloney a fly ball pitcher perfect for that park, and Lecure look great there except for one mistake pitch to Ichiro.
Good enough?

Doubt it … and I am a Reds fan. I think they’d ask for Yonder, Heisey & Wood … to which I’d tell them to go pack sand. We don’t need a two month rental starter IMO … even one of the best … our weakness is the 7th & 8th inning relief spot where Massett dominated last season. Only reliable late inning relief guy we have right now is Rhodes. If we make a trade, I’d be looking strictly for two solid pen arms. Lee would be awesome, but not at the cost of our future. And I don’t care about the two draft picks … over 90% of all picks never pan out … I’ll keep our prospects with solid track records and go for the relievers.

The biggest issue could be if the Yankees sign multiple type As (Jason Werth and Carl Crawford perhaps) and Lee is rated below 1 or both of them. The Yankees screwed the Brewers (2nd rounder for Sabathia) and Blue Jays (3rd rounder for Burnett) this way when they signed them in the same off-season as Teixeira (1st rounder to Anaheim). Another example of how the Yankees play by their own set of rules.

Gunner – Yonder will never amount to anything here as long as Joey Votto has a pulse. We might as well deal him. Juan doesnt have the defensive value to a NL team but could be a star DH in Seattle. Heisey is not gonna crack the line-up anytime soon it seems. Maloney and Lecure would be worth more than Wood alone.

Herb – Yes. Like I said, their future here is limited at best. And if Lee hits FA, I believe we have a shot at some comp. draft choices to make up for it? The arms wouldnt be too missed (Cueto, Wood, Leake, Chapman all under 24 I think).

Sports nut – Kerry Wood is about it and no, you cannot have Yonder for him. Maybe Francisco and Danny Ray Herrera

Oh I know Alonso is blocked & will never sniff the field while Votto is a Red, but trading him for 2 months of Lee with about a 2% chance he resigns & stays with the Reds past 2010 isn’t a good use of your assets. We have no long term solution at SS and that is where I’d be looking. Swapping Yonder for a young, near ML ready SS makes more sense. Cozart doesn’t look like he will have the bat to make it and we have no clue how all those Class A & below SS are gonna pan out … just my opinion

Even if we dont resign Lee we have a great shot at getting the comp picks for him.
So we can just re-up the system.
2 months of Lee leading us into October, and hopefully deep into the playoffs; is far more valuable to us than Alonso will. What SS are we gonna get that is better than the O-Cab/Janish tandem now for Alonso? SS is such a prized position, we would have to definitely move Alonso+Wood for even sniffing anything better than what we have. We need to win now and consider the future in the off season. Ship Alonso off for Lee. Then work on getting a SS (who probably would make no impact this year) later. Win now, Rolen isn’t gonna be able to keep this up, so we really need to take advantage of this year.

1. SS – Work the trade in the off season … not now. We should stick with what we have. Hence the words “long term”. Packaging him to a team with good SS in AA or above is a better use of his value IMO.

2. Lee – No guarantees he gets us to the post season & the two pick are not guaranteed 1st rounders. If Lee signs with a team that has already signed another Type A free agent … we’d only get a 1st round sandwich pick & their 2nd rounder. Again, not a risk I am willing to take. 90+% of all draft picks fail … including 1st rounders … I’ll stick with what we have over that.

3. We have a glut of starting pitching that will get even more crowded when Voltron & Bailey are back off the D/L around the allstar break … what are we going to do with them if we have Lee, Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Leake, & Wood? Wood is the only one that can realistically be sent down. You aren’t sending Leake or Cueto down (only other two with options). And dont even suggest putting Wood in any deal for Lee … Wood has a chance to be every bit as good as Lee down the road. If Jockety pisses away another top pitching prospect for two months of Lee … I’ll freak.

Point blank. We need a ace to get to the playoffs. Sure the reds are crowded with decent SP yet we do not have a pitcher that even sniffs the likes of Lee, Carpenter, Wright, Pelfrey, etc. … The Reds have built the Minors up and so we may us the talented prospects for trades like the proposed Lee trade. IMO go for it. We’ve waiting too long to be in contention to seat on our hands now, when we are playing so close to the Cards and 2 months + from the end. And if your arguement is that 90% of all prospects will not meet expectations in the bigs that means we really wouldn’t be giving that much up for a Cy Young award winner and a pitcher that has pitched 4CG in his last 4 starts.

As of right now, Cliff Lee is the highest ranked free agent besides Jeter and Pujols and they’ll both be staying with their teams. While it is possible some other free agent could pass him in the rankings by the end of the season, right now Cliff Lee very likely to led to that first round pick regardless of who else the team that signs him picks up.

I’m not sure Alonso is going to draw the M’s attention very well. As an M’s fan, I can’t say that I’m too excited about a college draftee 1B that has a career .420-and-dropping slugging percentage and a platoon problem. While the draft picks that Lee gets you aren’t going to be quite as good, I don’t really see Alonso as that much better. If the Reds can’t produce a guy among the top 50 prospects (Alonso is on the cusp, maybe) in baseball or two in the top 100, I don’t think the M’s are trading with them.

They gave up little to get him, cant see them expecting TOO much in return.
I sound like a broken record but, Alonso has been set back big time by an injury last season. A broken hamate bone. It can take up to a year to fully recover. It is just about to that full year point and he has really been performing better.
Because of his injury, he missed a lot of time last year and had to start in AA again. Then with injuries and such, he was forced up to AAA before he was really ready and it showed. But now, he is finally starting to come around.

I really don’t feel we need Lee TBH … relief pitching is our need. As for Alonso’s slugging … you can’t go off his minor league #’s because they aren’t a true reflection of his hitting potential due to injuries. That hamate bone injury saps power. he is just now rounding into shape. Injuries, on the other hand, would be my biggest concern if I were the M’s. Because he has yet to play a full season due to them.

Who do we have better?
Who is our Ace?
Harang? Just scratched with a back problem. Leake is a rookie, Wood is a rookie. Cueto is up and down. Arroyo is bound to have his usuall 11 run start. Volquez is coming back from Tommy John’s. Chapman wont be ready to start until 2011 earliest. Bailey is still hurt.
Jordan Smith. Arthur Rhodes. Logan Ondrussek. Bill Bray have all been good for us. Not to mention some of our starters will hit the pen when Volquez is healthy.

We don’t have anyone better and I never indicated so .. you are not going to convince me to agree to trade away our future for two month rental … period! You are wasting your time trying to do so. If you want to piss away our top prospects for two months of a great pitcher then I am glad you aren’t our GM because on a small market team like the Reds that is a recipe for failure IMO

Wow. Just simply wow. You must have worked under the old GM’s here.
Our future? Alonso will play one part in our future if any. Being traded. So why not try to get a guy to help carry us to the playoffs? There is no SS out there we could acquire with Alonso that would help us as much as Lee right now. You are pipe-dreaming if you think any team will give up a young SS talent (who is an upgrade) for Alonso.

Dude, get a clue! … you aren’t going to get Lee for Alonso and a couple of scrubs minor leaguers … its gonna take him, Wood & Heisey just to get the convo going due to his recent performance AND because of all the teams after him.

As for Alonso for a SS … read what I said .. I said PACKAGE … I’ll repeat it again PACKAGE!!!!! maybe that will sink in to help you out … try comprehending the discussion before you get into it because not only do you not know what I am talking about, you have no clue how to argue your point with anything resembling logic

Secondly … I’ll repeat this for you since you can’t read and comprehend … I said I would trade for SS … AFTER the season … oh and that was in a PACKAGE deal

And Alonso wont be the centerpiece of any trade to get us a young SS who will ever be more important to this team than Lee for the last 2 months of this season.
I know you mean after the season dick. It wont matter unless Hanley is available.
Heisey is not a future full time starter. I would gladly send those 3 for Lee.
You forget about Edinson or Chapman?
Package whatever you want, you wont get value in return for a SS who is worth a damn. I would rather part with Alonso for a former Cy Young winner for 2 months than a “a young, near ML ready SS” who might be nothing more than Janish already is. If we dont go after Lee to get your precious SS, he better be a proven MLB talent like Lee.

Gunner, you’re not getting it! You take the 2 month rental of Lee for some draft picks, especially if it involves Alonso (a first baseman that the Mariners obviously don’t have at the major league level) and a few others. Maloney will NOT crack the starting rotation now or in the future, and Heisey will likely be a 4th outfielder at most on this Reds team now and for the next 2-3 years at least. So what’s our future? Your logic doesn’t make sense.

You take the 2-month rental of Lee for the prospects, and then get two comp draft picks (I think they are first rounders) for losing him to free agency, ALL whilst increasing payroll along the way for having a winning season in Cincinnati.

No, you don’t get it and your logic doesn’t make sense for a small market team. What got us to this competitive level???? Player development! Small market teams can’t afford to piss away 2-4 of their top prospects at the outside chance they might make the playoffs for guy who will leave in two months and you get two picks that may never even sniff the big leagues & you will not convince me otherwise. At least we know Alonso, Heisey & Wood have ML talent. Maloney? Please! They wont want him … 26 year old AAAA player is not going to get it done. His “prospect” days are over. You want Lee? Better be ready to pony up Alonso, Heisey & Wood just to get the convo started … for real man, if you want to question logic, better get some better of your own before coming to the plate with that junk.

ok… so the trade would be well worth it… dont worry about what gunner is saying… your talking about a gm that built the other team that we are constantly battling… having said that… Lee would be the best thing that has happened to cincy since the bengals making the playoffs in 05… the city needs revived… ALonso will never play in cincy as long as votto is here… period! if thats how you went… with that outta the way… do you want a cy young winner or a “prospect” think you can get the picture now… and if you dont…. well try this last fact… castellini dropped the payroll this year… and nothing is saying he cant up it back to what it was (Harang, Arroyo, Hernandez, Cabrera, etc) just to name a few… are going to free mass money up… so next year lee could easily with the reds next season… trade for lee fill the seats… sorry… as for heisey… hes easily replaced

LOL too funny … Lee will not resign with the Reds when he can get close to $20M per season from a big money team. You are completely deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Where do you think all the freed up cash is going to go? Is Votto going to play for peanuts for the next 8-10 years? Phillips too? Cueto? etc … yeah you are right … we’ll just sign Joey to a 10 year $1M contract and pay Lee the $17-20M a year contract its gonna cost to keep him. That works … on your PS3 lol

i understand what your saying… your talking between arroyo harang cordero phillips and cabrera along with the pay decrease of almost 50 mil a season… you know that hannigan will catch next year… you know cabrera is getting old… they possibly have the deepest farm squad… im just telling you that its not that big of a deal… i wish homer bailey would leave instead of wood and i’d be laughing all the way to the bank… alonso, heisey, bailey for lee

I am not ready to trade Heisey yet … guy has played well at every level & right now is our best pinch hitter off the bench … which every most vets say is probably the hardest job on the team … and he is doing an outstanding job of it … as a rookie. Something tells me the kid has that “it” factor & could be our long term LFer. I love Gomes, I love what he is doing for our team. But his defense leaves a lot to be desired while Heisey is an adequate CFer according to the metrics … which makes him an above average defender in LF IMO.

So apparently by Gunners perspective, we’ve built (for years on end) our team around guys like Heisey, Francisco, Maloney, etc. The Reds are chock FULL of prospects. You have Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero in contract ending years. A total account of almost $40 million between 3 different players. Take the 2-month rental of Lee for the prospects. Heisey, despite what you think, is not projecting to be an every day starter. You’re saying you don’t want a Cy Young winner in your rotation for a few prospects because Heisey is good off the bench? Are you serious? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Look, I get what you are “trying” to say…we shouldn’t trade away our farm system to get Lee for a 2-month rental. And you’re right. But Heisey, Francisco, and Maloney aren’t your whole farm system. Heisey wouldn’t even be in the majors right now if it weren’t for the injury to Chris Dickerson, Francisco is still in the minors, and Maloney has been called up due to an injury to Harang. I’m not saying these guys alone will complete the trade, and I agree with you that we don’t include Wood in the trade. However, if we can complete the trade for 3-4 mid-level prospects, you do it. The 2-month rental of quality starts Lee will give the Reds will propel them into the playoffs and possibly the World Series. And right now, with Volquez not a certainty, another quality starting pitcher is a N-E-E-D, point blank.

Then with the salary cleared from Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero being gone, you have the needed room to possibly sign Lee along with Votto, Cuteo, and Phillips. $40 million is a good amount to work with among 4 different teams. If you can’t sign Lee, you get 2 comp draft picks for him. Again, it’s a win-win for the Reds, despite what you seem to believe about “destroying the Reds future” for guys that simply aren’t the Reds future.

1. We don’t know just how good Heisey can be … where you get this projection that he won’t be an every day player from because everything I have seen on him up through the ranks has been promising. Give him an every day job before you prove he can’t do it. Because he has proven everyone wrong since the day he was drafted.

2. If you are going to put words in my mouth, at least get the ones I actually said. You will never see any place where I mentioned Francisco or Maloney as being legit prospects … that is what few other poster’s unrealistic beliefs. Now Heisey, Wood, & Alonso? Yeah they are … and not because I say so … but because people who scout them for a living believe so. And these guys would give them up for 2 months of Lee??? I’m sorry, but no one will convince me to give that much up for that … ever. THAT my friend, has been the crux of my contention. If we can get Lee for Alonso, Francisco & Maloney … I’d dub Jockety a thief & enjoy watching the Ms fans on these boards have a melt down for such a poor return on a Cy Young caliber pitcher.

3. If I am not mistaken, Coco’s contract was a 4 year deal with a 5th year option … you can pull $12.5M off your available $40M to resign Lee … which isn’t happening. The going rate for Lee is going to be $17-20M and with the Reds $75M payroll they would be unwise to pay one player that much until they commit to a higher amount. They were already unwise to pay Coco what he is getting. Votto needs to get his, Phillips his, Cueto & Bailey will be starting their arb years … if/when Chapman becomes a permanent fixture on the team, his salary gets bumped way up. Bruce is now a Super 2 and is hitting arb a year earlier then anticipated. Harang & Arroyo’s deals have expensive buyouts that have to be accounted for … I could go on … but my point is pretty clear.

4. Draft picks – I’ve already posted my opinion on them … they are not as valuable to me as Alonso, Wood & Heisey are … nuff said

Again, nothing wrong with what I said. I never said Heisey sucked, I am just saying he doesn’t project to be an every day starter on a GOOD major league baseball team. He’s a 4th or 5th outfielder at best. He’s a quality guy off the bench, which is EXACTLY what you stated before. BUT, that doesn’t make him an untouchable, as you claim. Nor does it make Alonso, who has NO ROOM to be on this Cincinnati club. He’s a first baseman…do you think he’s gonna come up and play outfield? From the games he’s played outfield in the minors, he’s be FAR from superior, to say the least. So the question is, WHERE is he going to play?

If you package Homer Bailey and Alonso up for Lee, then why in the world wouldn’t you do it? It may take a little more than that, but I think you establish a few untouchables like Wood (or Heisey based on your “factual” information) and go from there. In fact, I believe MOST trades are initiated this way.

Cordero has an OPTION for 2011. Is that player or team? There is a difference there.

You’re also failing to understand that when you have a WINNING TEAM in a city, especially a city like Cincinnati, and they go to playoffs and even the World Series, that payroll increases. The Reds COULD possibly take on the payroll to sign Lee without a problem when that happens. And IT WILL happen if this team gets to the playoffs.

And again, you fail to understand the difference between a “prospect” and a major league talent. Brandon Larson was a “prospect” at one time. Paul Janish was a “prospect” at one time. Juan Francisco is still a “prospect.” Matt Maloney was a “prospect” at one point in time. Prospects are just that…the prospect to be major league talent…but that doesn’t mean they will be. UNTIL they start performing like they are projected, they are nothing more than a FORMER draft pick. So your conclusion that draft picks aren’t as good as “prospects” doesn’t make sense. Draft picks TURN INTO prospects, which then turn into Major League players. Doesn’t mean they’ll be good, it doesn’t mean they won’t. Your relationships just don’t add up. With scouts like Chris Buckley, getting two comp draft picks means a lot! If you don’t think so, I am sure glad you’re not making the front-office decisions.

Coco – his current contract doesn’t come off the books until “2012” not 2011 his contract was 4 years with a 5th year option and he is currently playing in the 3rd year of his contract … so again … your facts are incorrect.

Alonso – you failed to notice the part where I am OK with trading him. But that is OK, I know it defeats your argument to do so … so we’ll just let that slide.

Heisey – you can say he is a 4th or 5th OF at best all you want … but there is no proof one way or another until you give him an every day job. And the reports I read on him have said stated that he has proven those kinds of opinions on him are wrong at every level …

Alonso and Homer for Lee? – Done. Would the Ms take it? Highly doubtful considering what other teams are offering & I think if you ask most Ms fans they’d not be happy with that deal.

Your “winning team” theory doesn’t work for me … Marlins & Rays have a proven method for building successful small market franchises that can compete with the big boys. Your hope for a wind fall of dollars due to playoffs to boost payroll doesn’t hold water because all it will take in Cincy is for them to struggle in next season and the fan support will dry right up like it always does. That is just the way Reds fans are. Bob C. knows that and he won’t commit to a $90M payroll to do it. If he did … I’d be shocked.

I seem to value a prospect differently then you IMO … you would undo all of Buckley’s work IMO for one shot at the playoffs vice building a perennial contender. And that is fine, you are entitled to your preference on how to trade away our assets for a one & done. I’d rather use our assets to build up our talent level in places of weakness … like a long term answer at SS. So I don’t fail to understand what a prospect is … I fail to agree with your way running a franchise … to me it is a waste

1. When Florida “competed with the big boys,” they had young ACES in Josh Beckett, Brad Penny, Dontrelle Willis, AJ Burnett…and even had a few older guys in Carl Pavano and Mark Redman. Every single one of these guys, would’ve cracked the top-3 in ANY starting rotation in the Major leagues during this time. In 2003, the Florida Marlins had a payroll of over $49 million. The equates to, if not close, to the $75 million the Reds have now if you’re seen the progression of payroll increases over the past 7 years.

In 2008, the Florida Marlins finished 3rd in their division and 7 1/2 games back. Although they had a winning record, they still finished 3rd and didn’t win the Wild Card. So WHERE did it get them? No where. In 2009, they finished 2nd and 6 games back. WHERE did it get them? No where. They won a lot of games, but BECAUSE of their inability to have payroll flexibility, it didn’t get them into the playoffs.

Sooo…who do the Reds have that would crack the top-3 right now for any team? Even Mike Leake would be lucky to do that. Well, maybe the Pirates…but even then, it’s cutting it close. The Reds simply DO NOT have an Ace in their staff. They just don’t. Your failure to notice this and insist that the Reds somehow should just trade for a Shortstop or reliever because those are their ONLY dire needs at this moment, is as close to a farce as you can get.

The Rays are really your ONLY argument on this. How many times have playoff births or World Series births happened for low payroll teams without any flexibility, whom DON’T have many high quality starting pitchers in their rotation? That’s going to be pretty hard for you to answer. So no, bucko, my facts aren’t incorrect. Maybe you should check your logic…that seems to be what’s lacking.

2. Increasing payroll by $15 million is not a “windfall of dollars” by any standards in the major leagues. That’s ONE MAJOR PLAYER ACQUISITION, maybe two. In this case, it would be adding Lee and signing Votto, Phillips, Cueto, Bruce, etc. The Reds had the 2nd highest payroll in the National Leagues during the 1995 year. It got them to the second round of the playoffs. In today’s standards, increasing the payroll by $15 million for a few acquisitions to bolster the rotation, lineup, and bullpen wouldn’t be out of the question at all. That is IF the Reds make it to the playoffs this year.

3. Again, where did I say I wanted to undo Buckley’s work? Buckley has done a great job, but it doesn’t take away the fact that in order to get something, you have to give up something. It’s the way trades work, unfortunately. In fact, no one here has insinuated in any sense that you give up all the assets of this team for a one & done. Chris Heisey is an outfielder with a bit of pop. They are a DIME A DOZEN, dude. You’re acting like he’s the next Manny Ramirez, which he won’t be. Chris Heisey would get a starting job on very few teams right now, so your point is moot. He will not have a starting job on this Reds team now or at least 2-3 years in the future. Not with Stubbs and Bruce in CF and RF, and any power bat that have in left. Let’s face it, when the time comes down to it, they’ll go out and sign a proven power bat for the LF vacancy as opposed to putting Chris Heisey there. if you’re debating that, you’re in denial. And if you’re in denial, I believe this conversation is over with.

LOL, You can twist it any way you want … but I still disagree with your way of wanting to run the team. All those Marlins were shrewd drafting & smart acquisition of talented young players. The Reds are just beginning to get to where the they are now by finally having good drafts and not trading for rentals. Just because our players don’t “rate” as high as the Marlins doesn’t disprove the process of how to run a ball club. Where did it get them?? A lot better off then the Reds. Results say they know what they are doing a lot better then your way. We’re on a 10+ year losing streak because of piss poor drafting & the shambles of trying to buy ourselves a winning team at the expense of long term via the Marge & Bowden show. We are where we are now because it took several years of drafting better players … and I am not ready to start sending those guys out for rentals that could set us back a few years until our system restocks itself.

Heisey … you called him 4th or 5th OF … not me … I disagree. Call it denial if you want … but your point is moot because hardly anyone that actually scouts baseball players agrees with your assessment of him. Most of them agree they have been wrong about him since day one. But I am in denial lol whatever dude. Sign a power bat for LF? Yeah, we been waiting for that for 3 seasons now while shuffling Dickerson, Nix & Gomes in and out of the lineup. How about give Heisey a crack at it? Gawd forbid he actually proves everyone wrong … again lol

Twist it any way I want to? LOL. Obviously you can’t read, or don’t quite understand what was stated. The Marlins had the talent, the Reds simply DO NOT. You can think the Reds have the starting pitching talent that Florida did during their 2003 World Series run, but the fact is, they DO NOT. So, yes, you are in denial and are once again proven wrong.

Don’t get me wrong, the Reds are chock full of starting pitching in the minor leagues, but they don’t have near the talent of that 2003 Florida Marlins team. And to deny and ignore that their starting rotation needs attention is just absolute baloney.

Any which way you want to spin it, Heisey did not crack the 25-man roster out of Spring training and didn’t get the call-up until Dickerson got hurt. What do you think will happen when Dickerson comes back? No one here, including myself, is denying that Heisey isn’t a good baseball player. He’s just not an untouchable like you seem to think. Outfielders with pop are a dime-a-donzen, man. Failure and ignorance to also see this denotes that your argument has become nothing than just a personal opinion.

All I have heard thus far is “scouts think otherwise.” Well, scouts thought otherwise on Brandon Larson too. And Jay Bruce was supposed to be the next Larry Walker. And we all know what happened to both of those guys. Jay Bruce is good, but nowhere NEAR Larry Walker at this point in his career, and likely won’t be. Keep wishing on that star, bud. And like a previous poster said, lay off the caffeine.

lol I never said the Reds players were as good as the Marlins. Let me repost it for you so you can see read what you missed the first time:

“The Reds are just beginning to get to where the they are now by finally having good drafts and not trading for rentals”

Please point out where I said they are as good as the Marlins players …. ???? Thanks for trying to prove me wrong based on a point I never made lol

Oh, and since you are trying to prove me wrong about anything you can grasp at, while I am just disagreeing with your way of wanting to run the team… I am still waiting for your magical Cordero contract that comes of the books after this season

Heisey … I think we have beat this one to death … we’ll just agree that you disagree with most scouting reports on him

Brandon Larson lol … only one pimping him was fans … scouts said from the beginning that he had too many holes in his swing. Another example of how bad the drafting/scouting was back then. I have had a subscription to a few scouting services over the year and nothing I read about him made him a sure thing.

“LOL You know 20+ teams that agree with you … I can find 100’s of scouts & people don’t … redundant & immaterial … next!”

Really?!? Oh great one, can you please give me your autograph, then? Because obviously, you have all the inside news of the baseball industry, that no one else’s baseball knowledge or experience can match up to your great wise-tales!!

You’re so full of crap that anyone can read right through you. Statistics….state them. Put up or shut up. I’m tired of getting emails with your tripe.

“Your first paragraph = Fail … I answered it, addressed it … you dont agree & can’t stand that I wont agree with you and wont buy facts over your own opinion. So that is your problem, not mine … next!”

No, so far all you’ve said is that you somehow have insider news from scouts all across Major League Baseball. You’re full of crap, you theories are full of crap, and most people here disagree with you. Move on, little man.

“Red will spend money? Nice to hear that Bobby C. … dindt know you owned the team and controlled where you will spend your money = Fail again … you have no idea what they Reds WILL do Mr. Reds insider lol … next!”

Mr. pot calling the kettle black. Tell Chris Buckley I said hi since you know him so well!

Jocketty has stated to John Fay over and over again that they are willing to add to the payroll if needed. How hard is it to read regular Reds reporting? Oh, that’s right…you have scouting inside news and somehow don’t read statistics or pay attention to anomalies.

EPIC FAIL AGAIN.

“You want the Reds to win many WS? Good then you finally agree with me … thanks! I knew you’d come around lol”

But you DON’T agree. Haha. The Small Market team theory is a joke, buddy. The Yankees have won more World Series in the past 20 years than the Reds have COMBINED in their existence. Bash them all you want, but they find the pieces to win.

“Your business model = fail – Reds tried it in the 90s … try again … sorry but facts are facts … next!”

Last time I checked, it got them to 2 playoffs. Granted, they didn’t win the World Series, but had the pieces to do it. And 90’s? They WON a series in 1990! LMAO!!

YOU = EPIC FAIL = AGAIN

“OK, so you are saying you would rather watch a Reds teams suck for 10+ years instead of at least being able to field a competitive team year in and year out like the Marlins & Rays … I got it! Check!”

I would rather see the Reds spend the money to get a great team WHILST putting the young players in there in the process. That’s what I would like. That’s what the Yankees do. Joba Chamberlain, Robinson Cano, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Andy Petitte….these are guys that CAME up from their organization, but they still went out and signed guys like A-Rod and Mark Teixeira to fill the gaps. The Reds DON’T do that and that’s why they have failed the last 10 years. They haven’t had the front office personnel that’s capable of putting those pieces together until Walt Jocketty.

The Marlins & Rays have won 2 world series COMBINED while being a small market team. Enough said. LOL

“I have more common sense then you can shake a stick at & what sucks for you is that my logic doesn’t fit your preferences … to bad … I am still not buying your way running things. But here you are continuing to try … wishful thinking!”

The only thing you have are theories and opinions. Nothing proven, nothing factual. Not to mention you are somehow this “MLB Scouting Insider.” NO ONE is buying your way of running things, kiddo. In fact, like I said, 20+ different teams’ front offices would tend to disagree with you along with everyone else that has posted on here in regards to your posts. Move on, buddy.

“Awwww … name calling? How sweet!!! OK, you win, you are the king of the play ground lol … I let you rule the monkey bars lol I should have just assumed I was talking to a child … but I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt … but I guess when you back someone into a corner … name calling is the only thing the immature mind has left is to grasp on to. Sorry I hurt your feelings … if it makes you feel any better … I respect your opinion … but I will never agree to it … so please … dont waste your time replying to this … but we know you just cant let it go lol”

Would it seriously hurt you to form logical sentences that ARE NOT a giant run-on because he’s frustrated with what someone says to him on the internet? Push your bi-focals up on your nose, wipe those tears, stop trying to slit your wrists, and move on. No one is bullying you here, Gunner…I have proven you wrong time and time again and you still come back saying how I have, but yet EPICALLY FAIL to try and post something statistical that backs up your opinionated claims. And we all know the saying about opinions, don’t we?

“LOL You know 20+ teams that agree with you … I can find 100’s of scouts & people don’t … redundant & immaterial … next!”

Really?!? Oh great one, can you please give me your autograph, then? Because obviously, you have all the inside news of the baseball industry, that no one else’s baseball knowledge or experience can match up to your great wise-tales!!

You’re so full of crap that anyone can read right through you. Statistics….state them. Put up or shut up. I’m tired of getting emails with your tripe.

“Your first paragraph = Fail … I answered it, addressed it … you dont agree & can’t stand that I wont agree with you and wont buy facts over your own opinion. So that is your problem, not mine … next!”

No, so far all you’ve said is that you somehow have insider news from scouts all across Major League Baseball. You’re full of crap, you theories are full of crap, and most people here disagree with you. Move on, little man.

“Red will spend money? Nice to hear that Bobby C. … dindt know you owned the team and controlled where you will spend your money = Fail again … you have no idea what they Reds WILL do Mr. Reds insider lol … next!”

Mr. pot calling the kettle black. Tell Chris Buckley I said hi since you know him so well!

Jocketty has stated to John Fay over and over again that they are willing to add to the payroll if needed. How hard is it to read regular Reds reporting? Oh, that’s right…you have scouting inside news and somehow don’t read statistics or pay attention to anomalies.

EPIC FAIL AGAIN.

“You want the Reds to win many WS? Good then you finally agree with me … thanks! I knew you’d come around lol”

But you DON’T agree. Haha. The Small Market team theory is a joke, buddy. The Yankees have won more World Series in the past 20 years than the Reds have COMBINED in their existence. Bash them all you want, but they find the pieces to win.

“Your business model = fail – Reds tried it in the 90s … try again … sorry but facts are facts … next!”

Last time I checked, it got them to 2 playoffs. Granted, they didn’t win the World Series, but had the pieces to do it. And 90’s? They WON a series in 1990! LMAO!!

YOU = EPIC FAIL = AGAIN

“OK, so you are saying you would rather watch a Reds teams suck for 10+ years instead of at least being able to field a competitive team year in and year out like the Marlins & Rays … I got it! Check!”

I would rather see the Reds spend the money to get a great team WHILST putting the young players in there in the process. That’s what I would like. That’s what the Yankees do. Joba Chamberlain, Robinson Cano, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Andy Petitte….these are guys that CAME up from their organization, but they still went out and signed guys like A-Rod and Mark Teixeira to fill the gaps. The Reds DON’T do that and that’s why they have failed the last 10 years. They haven’t had the front office personnel that’s capable of putting those pieces together until Walt Jocketty.

The Marlins & Rays have won 2 world series COMBINED while being a small market team. Enough said. LOL

“I have more common sense then you can shake a stick at & what sucks for you is that my logic doesn’t fit your preferences … to bad … I am still not buying your way running things. But here you are continuing to try … wishful thinking!”

The only thing you have are theories and opinions. Nothing proven, nothing factual. Not to mention you are somehow this “MLB Scouting Insider.” NO ONE is buying your way of running things, kiddo. In fact, like I said, 20+ different teams’ front offices would tend to disagree with you along with everyone else that has posted on here in regards to your posts. Move on, buddy.

“Awwww … name calling? How sweet!!! OK, you win, you are the king of the play ground lol … I let you rule the monkey bars lol I should have just assumed I was talking to a child … but I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt … but I guess when you back someone into a corner … name calling is the only thing the immature mind has left is to grasp on to. Sorry I hurt your feelings … if it makes you feel any better … I respect your opinion … but I will never agree to it … so please … dont waste your time replying to this … but we know you just cant let it go lol”

Would it seriously hurt you to form logical sentences that ARE NOT a giant run-on because he’s frustrated with what someone says to him on the internet? Push your bi-focals up on your nose, wipe those tears, stop trying to slit your wrists, and move on. No one is bullying you here, Gunner…I have proven you wrong time and time again and you still come back saying how I have, but yet EPICALLY FAIL to try and post something statistical that backs up your opinionated claims. And we all know the saying about opinions, don’t we?

not wrong… the thing that is the funniest is that you are supporting gomes… now hes had the best year of his career but he will not return next year i would hope… and his batting average drops every game… always swinging at first pitches… hes a washed up joke… so heisey would be a better option than him right now imo… but dusty is an idiot and that wont happen… however tony larusa will be our skip next year… and if you listened to jocketty tonight on the game… hes poised to make a move very shortly… but a guy that hasnt been mentioned that would be a huge fit for the club would be jj putz… thats who they should go after.

Never said you did. I was just pointing out that you have ignored the ENTIRE TIME that the Reds rotation needs help. Good luck trying to refute that.

“I am still waiting for your magical Cordero contract that comes of the books after this season”

I thought his contract expired after 2010 with an option for 2011. My bad. Thanks for pointing it out, though. Now how about that starting rotation?

“Heisey … I think we have beat this one to death … we’ll just agree that you disagree with most scouting reports on him”

I’m not saying I disagree with them, just saying I will believe when I see it. Thus far, I haven’t seen it. If you have, you’re obviously watching another Chris Heisey than I am.

“Brandon Larson lol … only one pimping him was fans … scouts said from the beginning that he had too many holes in his swing. Another example of how bad the drafting/scouting was back then. I have had a subscription to a few scouting services over the year and nothing I read about him made him a sure thing.”

Oh no! Another scouting insider! We’re speaking in retrospect here, so don’t lie…you were one of the fans that were “pimping him.”

On a side note, Gomes has been clutch for this team in many situations. His signing was cheap and couldn’t necessarily hurt the Reds. I wouldn’t call him a hack just because he swings at first pitches, either. This team needs aggressiveness, and usually the first pitch in an at-bat is the best one you see. For years, we’ve had guys patient behind the plate (Dunn) and tried to force the walk, and look where it got us – the bottom of the NL Central. Gomes is definitely not the future LF’er of this team and is just a stop-gap for the time being. But he’s not doing a horrible job right now, either. Maybe Heisey is the future LF’er of this team, but only time will tell us that.

Your quote:”You can think the Reds have the starting pitching talent that Florida did during their 2003 World Series run, but the fact is, they DO NOT. So, yes, you are in denial and are once again proven wrong.”Hence you stated I thought the Reds staff was as good as the Marlins … when in fact I never did … if I did … I’ll be waiting for your cut and paste of my statement lol “Fail”This discussion was NEVER about whether the Reds rotation could use a player like Lee … nice try! It was was COMPLETELY about my unwillingness to over pay for him. So you need to work on keeping track of the conversation because you steered off a cliff on that one. Your scouting comment – you brought up Larson, not me – I just told you what I read when he was coming up through the minors. If that info makes it impossible for you to argue your point with anything other then derision … why waste your time? Saving face at this point is hopeless. Heisey … you obviously dont follow minor league baseball much, if at all. If you did, you would have seen how he proved all his naysayers wrong who now back him as a solid every day player. He has played great baseball at every level. If you are going to down play his performance at the M/L level while he is getting spot starts and the occasional PH AB … then I really question your ability to judge a player fairly. He has done better then some highly touted young players who play every day to this point.

Wrong again. I follow minor league baseball as much as I possibly can. But again, minor league baseball doesn’t mean a thing until you can hack it in the major leagues. A prospect is a prospect until he performs at the major league level. I have not said Heisey won’t be a great baseball player in the future. I simply said I don’t see him playing every day for the Reds. Right now, whether you’d like to admit it or not, he’s still a 4th or 5th outfielder AT BEST on any team. Outfielders with pop are a dime-a-dozen. It’s why it has taken him so long to crack the 25-man, and even 40-man roster for so long. Even after his brilliant year last year in the minors.

Hell, i watched Drew Stubbs all the way from Single-A Dayton (saw him start a few times there) and the guy never hit 11 homeruns (like he has now) throughout each year in the minors. Prospects are prospects, dude…that’s what it boils down to. You don’t know WHAT they are going to do. That’s why you can’t lay all of your dependency on them, especially an outfielder with a little bit of pop. You’re right, we’ll just have to disagree on this. When Heisey starts and hits like he’s projected to do, then you can tell me “I told you so.” Otherwise, it’s just here-say until it happens. Ya dig?

“Hence you stated I thought the Reds staff was as good as the Marlins … when in fact I never did … if I did … I’ll be waiting for your cut and paste of my statement lol”

You compared the Marlins and Rays to the Reds as if they could do the same thing they have done, which can only be counted on one hand (on how many times) within the past 20+ years, if not longer. It’s an ill-comparison. To rely on nothing but youngsters in hitter’s ballpark is just absolute malarkey. Believe what you will!

“This discussion was NEVER about whether the Reds rotation could use a player like Lee … nice try! It was was COMPLETELY about my unwillingness to over pay for him.”

No, you stated time and time again that the Reds needed a SS or Reliever before a quality pitcher. That, again, is a farce, my friend. The Reds don’t have the starting pitching depth, as we speak, that is capable (above Cueto, Arroyo, and maybe Leake) of keeping them in the race for the long-haul this season. They need that extra boost. Whether it be Lee or Dan Haren, they need a definite ACE.

We can sit around and bark about the “future” for more years to come, but we all know where that has gotten us for the past 10 years.

Like i said, asking for the team like the Rays and Marlins is wishing upon a star, and so are you. It’s a rarity, not a common occurrence, and not something we are going to see with this Reds team.

The Athletics have been trying it for just as long as the Reds and look how far it’s gotten them. Maybe you should go work for Billy Beane. LOL

What ever dude … you are trying to steer the convo away from the fact that you can never convince me that trading away our top talent for two months of Lee. That is the crux of all of this. No matter how hard you try to twist this … you are NEVER going to win that argument with me. Ever. So don’t even waste your time. Every time you lose a point, you jump onto something completely irrelevant to the original conversation. Just face it … there is nothing you can bring to the table … no phrase, no new info, no new data that will change that fact. So give it up.

If you follow Minor league baseball as you say, then I don’t agree with how you judge players and it is out of wack with what most of the people I follow who do it for a living … so again you bring nothing of substance to the debate except your own skewed opinion … another reason to just drop this because you have nothing that will change my mind … sorry … you fail to change my mind again

Fail … I am still waiting for any examples of me saying that 1. I don’t want Lee, and 2. that I said the Reds staff was as good as the Marlins…. post it or drop because now you are doing is tap dancing to save face …

When you can point to a team small market team that has had the long term success that the Marlins & Rays have had buy doing it your way and selling off minor leaguers to over pay for high priced rental talent – I’ll consider your opinion as having some validity. And dont bother bringing one one year wonders or markets that don’t compare to Cincy … because I know that is how you misconstrue things lol Therefore my original contention that using those two are perfect examples of what I prefer is completely valid. Again … you fail … no matter how you try and twist it.

Never … I’ll wait for that post to where I said the Reds needed SS first. I said that it is MY PREFERENCE to use our assets to trade for a long term solution at SS … something that holds more value over the long term … then to use them to over pay for Lee. (Sigh) it is just too easy to school you & untwist your weak attempts to twist my comments into something they never implied. I suggest you go back to high school & join the debate team so that you can acquire the proper skills necessary to try and argue your points. Because you again fail. You are better off sticking to your own statements because mine are to logical for you to twist in any way that brings something meaningful

Last 10 years. It took that long to rebuild the system & get us to a competitive level after years of Bowden’s ineptitude If you cant see that and have to be a fan of a “win now” team … I suggest you go be a Yankee fan lol

You can think following the Marlins & Rays system of development is wishing on a star … but as long as they keep out performing the Reds like they have for the last 10+ years … your argument will perpetually fail … as has everything you have tried to convince me of … just face it man … you still have nothing … nothing that will change my mind, that will convince me to over pay for Lee … nothing, zero, zip nadda. No matter how you try to twist this convo … that is the entire basis for this debate and you still have not come close to changing that fact. Enjoy being a new Yankee fan

“What ever dude … you are trying to steer the convo away from the fact that you can never convince me that trading away our top talent for two months of Lee.”

Why do i need to convince YOU of anything? You’re some smart-mark that thinks because he’s read a few articles that he KNOWS baseball. You’ve likely never played the game in your life. Besides that, you’ve also ignored statistics and anomalies (like the Marlins and Rays) that indicate that your ignorant “small market team” theory doesn’t hold ground. That’s YOUR loss that you’re so thick headed that you don’t quite understand the game of baseball, no one else’s. In fact, you’re soooo right like you claim, please explain why everyone that has responded to your horse-brained posts have DISAGREED with you. Good luck with that. So far, the ONLY thing you’ve stated is your unforgiving love for Chris Heisey (opinion) and that we don’t need Cliff Lee (opinion). No stats, no factual information, NOTHING to back up your claims other than some claim that you are somehow connected to scouts across the nation. Scouts use statistics, bucko, you don’t. That’s how I know you’re full of crap.

“If you follow Minor league baseball as you say, then I don’t agree with how you judge players and it is out of wack with what most of the people I follow who do it for a living”

Again, I don’t care if you agree with me on my assessment on minor league players. I know about 20+ other teams in the major leagues that do. The Reds are not a “small market team” like your stupid theory suggests. If they were, they wouldn’t have near double the salary, if not TRIPLE what these small market teams do. And please, by all means, I am waiting for examples of small market teams winning the World Series in the past 20+ years besides the Florida Marlins. One team winning the world series out of 20+ years is NOT a good statistic, and despite what star you keeping wishing upon, the Reds will spend more money as opposed to wishing on that same star.

“Never … I’ll wait for that post to where I said the Reds needed SS first. I said that it is MY PREFERENCE ”

What in the world is the difference? It’s an opinion and you said it. The pot calling the kettle black…dude…prime example of someone turning and twisting crap around is this excerpt. WOW…simply WOW!

“Last 10 years. It took that long to rebuild the system & get us to a competitive level after years of Bowden’s ineptitude If you cant see that and have to be a fan of a “win now” team … I suggest you go be a Yankee fan lol ”

That is the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a long time. Because the Yankees have a “win now” attitude, they’ve won 20+ more World Series than the Reds in a shorter existence. I want my Reds team to win as many World Series’ as they can. If you don’t, then you’re not a fan. As I said before, give Billy Beane a call. He’s probably looking for someone to work with him that has the same sort of ridiculous theories that rarely if ever work.

I enjoy watching young guys play and succeed just as much as anyone here. But you HAVE to spend money or increase payroll at times to get a quality proven veteran, or a team will NEVER succeed. In the Reds case, you’re correct…the past 10 years. The past 10 years the Reds front office cannot correctly form a team of younger talent with veteran talent to create a winning ball club. But, they also haven’t spent a lot of money doing it. Business 101, my friend – you have to spend money to make money. And last time I checked, Major League Baseball is a business.

“You can think following the Marlins & Rays system of development is wishing on a star … but as long as they keep out performing the Reds like they have for the last 10+ years”

Good for them. How many World Series rings has it gotten them? I don’t care if they go undefeated the entire season – if they don’t get to the World Series and win it, IT MEANT NOTHING.

“your argument will perpetually fail … as has everything you have tried to convince me of”

I am not trying to convince you of anything. You obviously lack common sense and are virtually inept of baseball knowledge, so what would be the point in sitting around any longer debating with a guy that probably sits in the corner all day with a helmet and sucks his thumb?

“just face it man … you still have nothing … nothing that will change my mind, that will convince me to over pay for Lee … nothing, zero, zip nadda. No matter how you try to twist this convo … that is the entire basis for this debate and you still have not come close to changing that fact.”

See…you have this overwhelming problem of putting words into people’s mouths. NEVER once did I say we should over pay for Lee. Your opinion of over paying and mine are totally two different things. Me, getting rid of a few prospects that don’t have room to grow in this organization, makes sense. You, believe in the Billy Beane theory of getting young guys, waiting until they’re good, then trading them off for younger talent to try and win the World Series. Because let’s face it, that’s what the Marlins do, the Pirates do, that’s what the Athletics do. The only team that DOESN’T do that, or hasn’t yet to a large extent, are the Rays. BTW, I’m still waiting on your answer on how many times these small market teams have won the World Series in the past 20+ years. Still waiting….waiting….waiting…waiting…

And I likely will continue to wait, because you’re a useless hack that THINKS he knows the game of baseball. Good luck, slim.

Your first paragraph = Fail … I answered it, addressed it … you dont agree & can’t stand that I wont agree with you and wont buy facts over your own opinion. So that is your problem, not mine … next!

LOL You know 20+ teams that agree with you … I can find 100’s of scouts & people don’t … redundant & immaterial … next!

Red will spend money? Nice to hear that Bobby C. … dindt know you owned the team and controlled where you will spend your money = Fail again … you have no idea what they Reds WILL do Mr. Reds insider lol … next!

You want the Reds to win many WS? Good then you finally agree with me … thanks! I knew you’d come around lol

Your business model = fail – Reds tried it in the 90s … try again … sorry but facts are facts … next!

OK, so you are saying you would rather watch a Reds teams suck for 10+ years instead of at least being able to field a competitive team year in and year out like the Marlins & Rays … I got it! Check!

I have more common sense then you can shake a stick at & what sucks for you is that my logic doesn’t fit your preferences … to bad … I am still not buying your way running things. But here you are continuing to try … wishful thinking!

As for putting words into peoples mouths, I just turned your attempts of interjecting the things I have said to fit an argument that isnt there … sorry … that dog just wont hunt. If me using your tactics on you is too much to handle, maybe you should find another hobby … lol

Awwww … name calling? How sweet!!! OK, you win, you are the king of the play ground lol … I let you rule the monkey bars lol I should have just assumed I was talking to a child … but I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt … but I guess when you back someone into a corner … name calling is the only thing the immature mind has left is to grasp on to. Sorry I hurt your feelings … if it makes you feel any better … I respect your opinion … but I will never agree to it … so please … dont waste your time replying to this … but we know you just cant let it go lol

What ever you said will not show up on the screen … I am not emailing you … sorry to disappoint you lol You will have to look for love letters elsewhere lmao Probably a good thing since all you have left are insults & ridiculous comments. Either way … since you can’t live with the fact that I will never agree with you … we can just agree to disagree … I don’t think your keyboard can handle much more lmao

What ever you said will not show up on the screen … I am not emailing you … sorry to disappoint you lol You will have to look for love letters elsewhere lmao Probably a good thing since all you have left are insults & ridiculous comments. Either way … since you can’t live with the fact that I will never agree with you … we can just agree to disagree … I don’t think your keyboard can handle much more lmao

It doesn’t make sense for a contender to trade on of their best players away, even if they’re getting a slightly better playing in return. The idea of deadline trades is to exchange future success for present success.

I think the bidding is between the Yankees and Twins personally. The Mets have shown that they have problems team wide not just in the starting pitching department (K-Rod, bullpen, and offensive under-performances). And also I’m pretty sure the Mariners aren’t impressed whatsoever with what the Mets have to offer in prospects packages. The Twins have Wilson Ramos, who is a great catcher with an average bat and other great young players to offer. The Yankees have several big bats such as Montero, Laird, Nunez and Romine to dangle. I personally would hold on to Montero over Romine.

My prediction : He goes to the Twins who have an absolute need for a TRUE ace. His start against the Tigers was dominant and with the AL Central race close again this year the need to win all the games they can against the Tigers.

As a Yankee fan I would LOVE to have Cliff this year but the Mariners GM has his sights set on Jesus Montero, our hitting prodigy with a Miguel Cabrera/Mike Piazza-esque bat. And no GM in the world would trade such a prospect for 2 months of a pitcher.

Ramos is getting overhyped as the trading deadline nears. He isn’t that good. He’s no Carlos Santana or anything. He’s not any sort of impact player offensively or defensively. At least right now he doesn’t look like it. He has a good arm but his overall defense is still up in the air. His bat is nothing special. Maybe average if he turns out like he’s supposed to.Much to similar to Adam Moore to be the centerpiece in a Lee trade. As a Mariner fan I would rather the M’s deal with Mets over Minnesota. At least the Mets have some really interesting players in guys like Mejia, Flores and Havens. IMO, Minnesota’s guys have less upside.

I don’t agree with your logic that the mariners arent impressed with mets propspects..I do however believe that the mets tend to place very high value on their prospects moreso than they have in the past, and are therefore extremely hesitant to deal the players the mariners may be looking for…I have a feeling they are trying to centerpiece their deal over someone like fernando martinez with three to four complementary mid level prospects or maybe some young high reward guys. I think while his value is down they are probably trying to push the mariners based on his age for his level, his former status as an elite prospect and the fact he is healthy now and when healthy has generally produced while being young for his level (his bat is starting to heat up at AAA after returning from DL)

Speaking as a RS fan, I bet you they are really crushed having a farm system ranked nine places lower.
They must look at their team and shake their heads when they think of the prospects they graduated in the last couple of years with Hughes, Gardner, Pena, Joba, Robertson, and whomever else they helped win the World Series last year.

While the mets have graduated what in the last few years (not this year given the rankings at the start of the year?)

I do remember when yankees fans were happy they outranked the Red Sox a few years ago, as if RS fans were angry that Buchholz, Lester, Ellsbury, Pedroia has come up and helped us win a World Series.

Farm systems go on cycles, graduate a few and it takes a year or two for the next wave to come along.

I realize that everyone gets hyped about his team’s prospects, but I think the hype around Montero is a little high. He is probably more in the mold of Victor Martinez: strong bat (I think Montero’s will be better) with below average defense. I would love to see the Rays run all over Montero, just like they do on V-Mart.
Wilson Ramos is also over-hyped, but he is a pretty good lock to be above average defensively. I recall the idea that for prospects “your bat gets you to the show, but your defense keeps you there.”

I do not believe a team other than the Yankees or the Mets have a real shot at signing Lee prior to him becoming a free agent. Plus i live in Cleveland and from what I have heard in the past that Lee wants a CC type contract same money and the same years.

The Indians made a effort to extend him 3 to 4 years with a couple of club options at around 15 to 16 per year and he turned it down thats why the Indians dealt him to begin with.

.288/.346/.434 with 13 HRs in 224 ABs in 2009 is weak hitting? He’s ranked 58 by BA and 65 by Baseball Prospectus. I’m sure Seattle would love that with their lack of catching talent. Slowey is 26 years old and has shown some promise, he could possibly be a 3 or a 4 starter in the near future. Neshek has posted good stats in the past, could use a change of scenery though.If I was Minnesota, that’s what I would start with. If they don’t want that then you work in order with these prospects: Danny Valencia, Deolis Guerra, Miguel Sano, Kyle Gibson, and Aaron Hicks.

There is 0 chance of Gibson going anywhere. He would’ve been just behind Strasburg without the stress fracture and has since been pitching very good. People say he’s got a chance to possibly be a #1, but more likely a high-end #2 pitcher. That would never be traded for 2 months of pitching. I think we have to consider going Ramos/Revere/Another prospect…and see what they say and go from there.

and as far as montero from yanks goes i understand that the guy put together a really good 2009, but as far as i’ve seen and heard, hasnt he struggled this year with the bat, and isnt his value greatly diminished by his ability to stay at catcher (which as i understand it isnt very likely)…i understand he’s still a good young prospect but it just seems like his value is down for the mariners to not want many more additional pieces

It’s his first year in Triple A, and he’s coming off the freakish hand injury he suffered last year. He’s only 20. Give him time.His value as a catcher is already gone. He has like 12 past balls already. He’s an outfielder/dh in the future. He hit .289 in June with 9 doubles and 3 Home Runs, so he has shown signs of life. Give him time. He’s also hitting .286 with runners in scoring position, so it’s not like he’s a zombie up there when it matters the most.

If Zs wantin’ near ready prospects, he might be waitin’ a while. If he can’t get him (which seems highly possibly at this point), his only other choices are collect two draft picks or ponying up the $$$$.

I am so tired of people saying Lee is just a two month rental. You are going to get a sandwich pick between the 1st and second round and in all likely hood a first(unless and awful team signs lee or Jayson Werth or Carl Crawford have a great finish while Lee goes in the tank and the same team signs both players). Not even mentioning that you get Cliff Lee for 2 to 3 months. No one is pitching better then Lee and he is proven in the playoffs. Would you trade top prospects for a shot at the World Series? The Mets, Rangers, Dodgers, Reds and Twins have a very slim chance without Lee and a good one with him. The Yankees could wrap it up right now if they can get Lee. Not sure if Philly could get over the embassment of getting nothing for Lee then having to give up Dominic Brown to get him back.

I bet a lot of the people crying “rental” would say the same crap if Lee were under control for 2011, too. No enough people are willing to give up the illusion of a perfect tomorrow for a shot at victory. Multi-year security/longterm “potential” is disproportionately preferable to instant gratification.

Really, who’s to say Texas will have a better shot at winning the WS in the next ten years with their prospects o’ plenty than they will right now with Lee heading their rotation? We can project all we like, but reality is staring that team in the face. The Reds are in a similar situation. Maybe the Mets and Twins, too.

I don’t know where he’ll end up, but I can’t believe the amount of talent some people are willing to give up for a rental. He’s going to the Bronx in December, so unless you’re the Yankees, you are losing him in addition to your premium prospects.

Only way Minnesota gets Lee is if it’s Ramos +3. Baker/Slowey + Ramos + mid level prospect. Seattle might as well trade him to Texas and make it a twin killing (they cant sign him long term and Seattle gets to take some texas prospects).

Smoak, Salta, and a mid level prospect for Lee would be good enough. I dont get why people think Seattle will get so little back. Think CC Sabathia but even better because he’s been the same if not better than CC that year and Cleveland got their No. 1, 4, and 8 prospects. Seattle wants a ML hitter and Smoak is that guy, Salta can be the catcher and the prospect doesnt matter

Gibson will not be in a package, he’s talked about as a future high-end #2 pitcher coming off the stress fracture that was the only reason he fell in the Strasburg draft. I could see a Ramos/Revere/Benson deal, but there is no way they include Kyle Gibson.

As a reds fan, if there is anyway that the reds could trade alonso for Oswalt I’d think we would rather take Oswalt than Lee considering what he has done at GABP against the Reds in his career. (Just saying)

for the past ten years or so cincinnati has relied on their “prospects” for hope that one day they will finally be good. Waiting on prospects has got this team no where. Not until they got rolen, gomes, cabrera, hernandez did they start competing. this team with out those guys is no where. sure votto phillips bruce stubbs are a huge part of this team. but the older guys taught them what it took to win consistently and just look at last year before and after they got rolen to see what veteran leadership and a guy who knows how to win can do for a team. you cannot win without proven winners. show me the last team to win with no guys who had been there before. cliff lee is the guy who makes this good team an elite team and you must capitalize on your opportunities because they come few and far between. give up anyone who is not contributing or will contribute THIS YEAR and get lee

Ummm…hello? If the Reds trade decent prospects for him and then lose him to Free Agency at the end of the year, they get TWO first round picks in the draft. It’s a win-win for ANY team really using him as a rental for the drive to the post season.

For the Reds, though, when he comes in and propels this team to a winning season and into the playoffs, payroll will increase…plus they get the two first round draft picks. The move makes total sense for the Reds, especially if Harang goes on the DL with back problems he’s having.

Neither Hicks or Ramos are exactly tearing it up in the minors. Is this the best the Twins have to offer? Well JackZ is quite a good judge of talent. So I will put my faith in him to make the best deal.

With minor leaguers you really can’t base much off of the stats they put up, sure it’s nice when they put up great numbers, but it doesn’t necessarily tell you much about their potential and ability. In Hicks case, his numbers don’t look that good, but considering that he’s only got about 100 games under his belt since high school, he’s looking pretty good.

Hicks was listed as Minnesota’s #1 prospect by BA and Fangraphs at the beginning of the season for good reason.

Also considering that in Keith Law’s mid-season prospect rankings Hicks ranked 9th overall out of players still in the minors, that’s pretty darn good.

Worst case scenario with 2 prospects of this quality in the deal and the potential for another player or 2, this raises the playing field for any other team that is interested

Now that it could be Hicks, I don’t want Lee. I think that would be overpayment. I want the guy, but I don’t want to overpay. Plus, I’m not one of those people who ever thought getting Lee would put us over the top. We’re still inconsistent.

He’d be a great addition and an extreme upgrade, but not worth it for Ramos + Hicks. It’s not like we’re guaranteed a WS appearance after that trade and Lee will leave once the offseason hits.

The chance to acquire the best pitcher in the world with a tiny salary to push your team over the top does not happen every year. This is a opportunity that may not come up for the next five years. You have a good team… why not make it a great team? Take a shot! Hick is no guarantee, and he’s three+ years away. You can go get another outfield prospect in the next three years. Draft one with one of the extra picks.

I don’t think it pushes the team over the top, that’s the problem. If it did, I wouldn’t worry about it that much. Getting Cliff Lee does not guarantee a series win in the playoffs. It doesn’t guarantee a WS appearance. Obviously having him will increase the “chance” but that’s about it. I don’t feel like we are any more likely to win the WS with him than we are without him.

The Twins will likely be down a few outfielders (Cuddyer & Kubel) in the near future and Hicks seems to be the most prized out of all of them.

The chance to have a prospect like Hicks doesn’t come along every year either. You say “draft another outfield prospect with one of the picks,” like he’s just instantly replaceable. There’s obviously a reason Hicks is as highly regarded as he is. He’s an elite prospect who’s got the type of ceiling to be a cornerstone player for a team.

Exactly, Hicks is way too important. The draft picks are a shot in the dark, even if they say the draft is deeper next year. And like other people have said, we could end up with a sandwich pick and a second rounder depending on if the team that signs him already has a higher rated type A.

Hicks is worth more than that to the Twins organization, especially since by the time he’ll be ready, or sooner, the Twins are going to need outfielders.

We have an idea about how Hicks will turn out and he’s getting professional experience. We know nothing about these possible draft picks and can get screwed multiple ways with that.

If Jack Z trades Lee for these two scrubs (Ramos, Hicks) he won’t be any different than the GMs who traded CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee (1st & 2nd time) for trash. He said he wanted impact players with impact bats.

Relax everyone.. Someones gonna blink and give up a Smoak/Montero type player. If the Twins set the bar at Hicks/Ramos someone will beat it. Its gonna happen really quick too, we’ll probably hear very little, if any chatter about the pending trade and then boom, it’ll be outta nowhere and some team will have given up a nice haul.

your right. the reds getting a cy young caliber pitcher that could lead them to the world series would be disastrous for the team. the goal of baseball is to win the world series not have the most number of good prospects

1. He could disrupt the chemistry of the team … or
2. We still miss the playoffs & or lose in the first round & he walks away at the end of the season & the two picks you get never come close to the potential of the 3 pretty darn good prospects you had & have nothing to show for it … AND …
3. The 3 top prospects could turn out to be a compliment to your already strong team core that leads to a long term run of success with multiple playoff appearances …

If I have to chose … I’ll run with what I’ve got. As I have said all along … this is just my opinion basing it purely on the fact that we are a small market team and can’t afford to take risks like the Phills, Red Sox, Yanks etc can … if you disagree … that is your prerogative … but it doesn’t make either of us right or wrong.

I’ll answer you that when you can convince me that the Cy Young pitcher is going to stick around for more then 2 months … with the type of players being mentioned being needed to get Lee, its more then I am willing to pay for two months of Lee & two draft picks that may never make it past AA

your right he could leave and those prospects could add to this team or the reds could add payroll because of they made it deep into the playoffs and fans begin to come to the games again and they resign him and those prospects could add nothing and end up flaming out like a lot of prospects do. why not trade unproven players who will not contribute to winning this year for a proven winner who could push this team over the top. cliff lee will not ruin the chemistry i guarantee that. and he gives them the chance to make it farther into the playoffs. thats all you ask for is a chance. and when that chance comes you have to make the most of it.

I would give up Alonso and a lesser player for 3 months of Lee, but not Alonso and Travis Wood as I’ve been hearing. Wood is a younger and cheaper version of Cliff Lee, a future Cliff Lee if you will or a left-handed Mike Leake, either way waaaayyy too much for only 3 months of Lee. Now, Alonso with say a Matt Maloney or maybe even a Todd Frazier or Chris Valaika and I would do that deal.

I’d give Alonso & Valaika up … but with the names that other teams are rumored to be offering … we’re looking at an Alonso/Heisey/Wood + kind of offer needed to get him. As I have said over and over to these guys who think they can send Alonso and two scrubs prospects … you aren’t going to sniff a chance at Lee for that … but I’ll let those arm chair GMs continue to dream

If you’re going to invest a lot in a guy, you’re going to want to see him up close and personal. Maybe suddenly his velocity is down or the scout notices him grabbing his hamstring between pitches. Makes zero sense NOT to scout a guy you’re going to trade for really.

LOL … OMG yeah there is a real equal comparison … a team like the Red Sox that have more then double the Reds payroll, can afford to resign a player like Lee for double what the Reds can … and if not, afford to go out and pay $51M just to negotiate with the top available Japanese pitcher available … yeah … reeeeeaaalll good comparison there skippy

I don’t know enough about the last three guys. But if Alonso is the best prospect in that deal, then I wouldn’t do it. Im just not a fan of the guy, and his right handed power would not play well at Safeco Field.

that is a rare case but even that team had some proven veterans. eric hinske cliff floyd dan wheeler troy percival grant balfour. but that team is the closest you can come to a bunch of young guns making a run for it all and that will most assuredly will not happen again for a long time

Last I heard, they were going to evaluate him before tomorrow’s game and possibly call Maloney up (it’s his turn at Louisville) to start. Hopefully Harang sucks it up, but who knows. Harang or Arroyo will likely get traded before the end of the season anyway….I’m tending to lean towards Harang more.

You are dreaming if you think you will get Lee for Alonso/Francisco/Valaika or FrazierAlonso is the only one in that group that has any real value and the M’s arent stupid enough to believe any different … you are over valuing our prosepcts to fit your argument. If you tell me that you are willing to send Alonso/Heisey/Wood type of deal … then you’d be in the ball park of what it will take to get Lee … but its not a price I am willing to pay

I am all for trading them … just not for a 2 month rental … I’d rather trade top prospects for top prospects (it does happen ya know?). Package Alonso to a team that has a top prospect that is blocked (like … um … Alonso is) at a position of need

lol show me where I said I didnt want him???? I said I won’t mortgage the future of our team for two months of him. I said I’d pass on a deal cost our farm system too much. If you are going to put words in mouth … at least make sure I said them in the first place.

As for running the team. How did we get to where we are now? By developing our own talent & trading for young talent on the cheap … and not by over paying for rentals. Is our team boring right now? Because the way I would be running it is mostly the way its currently constructed.