Review roundup: Zune HD plays catchup to iPod touch - Page 6

A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.

Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.

I agree that eventually the PMP market will be absorbed by mobile computers. However, I think that mobile platforms still have at least another few generations to go before they can really absorb the market. I would say that nothing is ahead of the iPhone/iTouch when it comes to mobile platforms, and they are still quite a ways away from being comparable to a laptop in your pocket. So much so that at this point the ZuneHD, which is a PMP first, is at least capable of being as powerful as the iPod Touch. The only difference is the amount of software available. Advances in hardware capabilities will be the driving force behind mobile computing, and as it stands, we just aren't there yet. We're still kind of in the MP3 player on steroids stage.

Despite my experience with Vista I don't think the people at Microsoft are dummies. It seems to me like they are at least trying to incorporate the Zune into the Xbox360. I don't know what their overall plan is, I would assume that they understand that eventually everyone is going to want a box in their pocket that does everything. I think it is clear that the ZuneHD is a stepping stone on the media side of the river towards that. I would say much in the same way that the iTouch was a stepping stone for the iPhone.

What is also clear is that right now there is a large market for people who want devices that can play music as well as entertain them with mini-games while they sit on the bus. The ZuneHD has actually been selling quite well, and I can certainly forsee the ZuneHD competing in that marketplace. Of course, there are still plenty of ways that Microsoft could screw the pooch.

Yes, he said it's not something they are going to do now, but he is talking about a compatibility with something that is a phone and something that isn't a phone. They are both based off of the same kernel and they are both going to use the same architectures. That means that, right now, apps may not be compatible with each due to libraries not being the same for each device, but that doesn't rule out the possibility for them to put the libraries on the Zune HD and vice versa for Windows Mobile. Notice that he didn't rule it out. This is typically what Microsoft does before they actually officially announce something, which means it is in the works. It is obviously not a top priority right now, but it would be foolish to say that they weren't working on it at all. It is very doable to have Windows Mobile and Zune HD apps compatible with each other.

Also I am not claiming that the UI for WinMo 7 will look the same or even similar to the Zune HD. That said, you would have to be blind if you think that they aren't going to integrate these devices more than just adding a music player to WinMo 7.

Yeah. And pretty soon MS will give away a pony with every copy of Windows 7.

I mean, this kind of speculation built on hunch on the back wishful thinking doesn't really add up to much. If MS wanted to make a Zune like device with WinMo functionality, why didn't they?You make it wound like all they have to do is pull the trigger and its done, but apparently there are obstacles. I wonder what they might be?

And how exactly, do they "integrate these devices"? Put the UIs in a blender and hope for the best?

Look, the reason Apple came out of nowhere with the iPhone and started making serious inroads in the market is because they worked the hell out of the UI. It's easy enough, at this point, to look at Zune's white on black typography based zooming and declare the iPhone OS "dated", but the fact is when you want to do more than impress your friends with animations, you want a UI and OS that someone has sweated over to make functional. You don't get that kind of functionality by having the WinMo people look at what the Zune people are doing and saying "Cool! Love the truncated list headers! We can use that! And the zooming and switching? Neat!" You get it by thinking a lot about what people want to do with their hand held computers and figuring out ways to make that easy. The Zune makes it easy to navigate lists of media. So does the Nano, for that matter, should Apple merge the Nano and the iPhone?

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

Well Microsoft is branding everything media as Zune. This means WMP will be replaced with the Zune software, the video marketplace on the Xbox 360 is going to be Zune, Windows Media Center will be Zune, media capabilities of Windows Mobile devices will be Zune...and Microsoft is opening this up to hardware manufacturers who are embracing this. Apple TV is kind of like Windows Media Center, but if Media Center Extenders are pushed by Microsoft and TV tuners get easier to use and people discover that they can have a free DVR, Apply could be on their way out the door. And all of this software is good. It's really good. Do not pretend that it isn't. Despite popular belief, Microsoft is very committed to quality software. It doesn't always happen because they don't always control the hardware that their software interacts with, but they do care. They know that it is the best way to keep customers.

The only way Apple will pull ahead of Microsoft is to catch up to what Microsoft has and make it available on Windows. And they need to make the software good. Anyone who has used iTunes on Windows will agree that so far they have failed miserably at making their software on Windows good. Apple has to embrace everything about Windows and make everything completely compatible with Windows.

Oh please tell me you're kidding. "The only way Apple will pull ahead of Microsoft"? So because MS has released a PMP with a pretty interface, and you're willing to make a frankly incredible chain of assertions about How Its All Going To Come Together, all of a sudden Apple's playing "catch up"? And MS only writes excellent software but they're done in by their hardware partners. Man, and they talk about Apple people drinking the koolaid......

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

I agree that eventually the PMP market will be absorbed by mobile computers. However, I think that mobile platforms still have at least another few generations to go before they can really absorb the market. I would say that nothing is ahead of the iPhone/iTouch when it comes to mobile platforms, and they are still quite a ways away from being comparable to a laptop in your pocket. So much so that at this point the ZuneHD, which is a PMP first, is at least capable of being as powerful as the iPod Touch. The only difference is the amount of software available.

People keep saying this, but it doesn't appear to be true. Just because hardware is capable doesn't make any given device potentially anything. That's software's job, and software doesn't magically spring to life because the hardware "could" do something.

Claiming that the Zune is just some apps away from being a Touch competitor is exactly like saying the Xbox is just a few apps away from being an iMac competitor. Sure, the iMac has more apps now, but the Xbox totally wipes the floor with the iMac when it comes to game play, and that's a great foundation to build on, right?

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Advances in hardware capabilities will be the driving force behind mobile computing, and as it stands, we just aren't there yet. We're still kind of in the MP3 player on steroids stage.

No. Software will be the driving force behind mobile computing, as Apple has shown, and Apple ended the "MP3 player on steroids" era. Just because MS wants to make that a product category doesn't' mean anyone else has to.

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Despite my experience with Vista I don't think the people at Microsoft are dummies. It seems to me like they are at least trying to incorporate the Zune into the Xbox360. I don't know what their overall plan is, I would assume that they understand that eventually everyone is going to want a box in their pocket that does everything. I think it is clear that the ZuneHD is a stepping stone on the media side of the river towards that. I would say much in the same way that the iTouch was a stepping stone for the iPhone.

This is...... not good. As in makes no sense whatsoever. The Zune isn't a "stepping stone" in the sense that the Touch is a stepping stone, because the Touch is everything an iPhone is sans cell radio and phone app, running the same OS, and they both are here now and full fledged pocket computers, whereas the Zune is not. And does not share anything, at the moment, with any phone software MS makes. You're using "stepping stone" in two completely unrelated ways to imply that both MS and Apple are feeling their way to the future of mobile computing, but Apple is already doing it. MS is doing whatever it is they're doing, but the Zune certainly doesn't represent the future.

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What is also clear is that right now there is a large market for people who want devices that can play music as well as entertain them with mini-games while they sit on the bus. The ZuneHD has actually been selling quite well, and I can certainly forsee the ZuneHD competing in that marketplace. Of course, there are still plenty of ways that Microsoft could screw the pooch.

So now it's "mini-games" that people want, because, just coincidentally, it's mini-games that the Zune offers. I have no idea when it became clear that there is a large market for people who just want music, movies and mini-games, when they can pay the same money and get a hell of a lot more. But all of a sudden that idea, that what people are really longing for is the simplicity of not having to deal with all that functionality, has become quite popular. I wonder why?

I'm not surprised that the Zune would sell well initially-- it's novel, it's pretty, and there are a certain number of people that will jump at the chance to buy anything that doesn't suck and isn't Apple.

But eventually the novelty will wear off, and people will realize that what they have is a fancy iPod with a browser. Back when Apple only made scroll wheel iPods, that would have been amazingly competitive.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

People keep saying this, but it doesn't appear to be true. Just because hardware is capable doesn't make any given device potentially anything. That's software's job, and software doesn't magically spring to life because the hardware "could" do something.

Claiming that the Zune is just some apps away from being a Touch competitor is exactly like saying the Xbox is just a few apps away from being an iMac competitor. Sure, the iMac has more apps now, but the Xbox totally wipes the floor with the iMac when it comes to game play, and that's a great foundation to build on, right?

No. Software will be the driving force behind mobile computing, as Apple has shown, and Apple ended the "MP3 player on steroids" era. Just because MS wants to make that a product category doesn't' mean anyone else has to.

As a programmer myself I certainly agree that software does not spring from the ground unabetted. However, unlike laptops and desktop computers, mobile 'computers,' are mostly limited by their hardware capabilities. Hardware for desktops advances at a faster rate than programmers are able to keep up with. In other words, by the time we have figured out how to make the best use of our brand new Intel Quad Cores and 6 gigs of ram and terabyte hard-drives, the next advancement is made. The applications for the iPhone and iTouch are not cutting-edge, they are 'arcade' versions of software, they are programs written by programmers eeking out what they can in a highly limited environment.

I think it is shortsighted to believe for example that one day soon we will not be able to run complex applications like Photoshop on mobile devices.

I would certainly argue that at this point it is not the capability of programmers that is bottlenecking the advancement of mobile devices.

I would also point out that the ZuneHD has been out for about a week now, maybe less. It is a little early to be claiming that there will be no applications/games for the Zune. There will be a development phase. There is a marketplace and MS has released Zune tools for the XNA GS. If you want to talk about likely potentials for development consider: How many people program for Xcode/Object-C in the US? Worldwide? How many people program in Visual Studio/.NET?

Frankly, I don't follow the Xbox/iMac comparison. Unless you are saying the software for an iMac is junky novelty crap and can be written by amateur programmers in a week and sold for $2.00.

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Originally Posted by addabox

This is...... not good. As in makes no sense whatsoever. The Zune isn't a "stepping stone" in the sense that the Touch is a stepping stone, because the Touch is everything an iPhone is sans cell radio and phone app, running the same OS, and they both are here now and full fledged pocket computers, whereas the Zune is not. And does not share anything, at the moment, with any phone software MS makes. You're using "stepping stone" in two completely unrelated ways to imply that both MS and Apple are feeling their way to the future of mobile computing, but Apple is already doing it. MS is doing whatever it is they're doing, but the Zune certainly doesn't represent the future.

Well, obviously I did not mean in the exact same way. However, the UI for the Zune is truly great. I have no doubt that much of what Microsoft did for the Zune will be used in the new version of Windows Mobile. I don't disagree that Zune is not the future, it will likely taper off and die in favor of smartphones. But I would say ditto for the iPod Touch. That does not mean that the ZuneHD will not be a proving ground for things to come in Windows Mobile.

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Originally Posted by addabox

So now it's "mini-games" that people want, because, just coincidentally, it's mini-games that the Zune offers. I have no idea when it became clear that there is a large market for people who just want music, movies and mini-games, when they can pay the same money and get a hell of a lot more. But all of a sudden that idea, that what people are really longing for is the simplicity of not having to deal with all that functionality, has become quite popular. I wonder why?

As a previous iPod touch owner I would say that is pretty much exactly what the iTouch is. I mean truly, what powerful applications exist for the Touch? Facebook? Twitter? Ebay? Wikipanion? I'm not going to pretend that I used my touch for anything other than listening to music and killing time. Entertainment. I didn't go throwing out my laptop when I bought one.

Yeah. And pretty soon MS will give away a pony with every copy of Windows 7.

I mean, this kind of speculation built on hunch on the back wishful thinking doesn't really add up to much. If MS wanted to make a Zune like device with WinMo functionality, why didn't they?You make it wound like all they have to do is pull the trigger and its done, but apparently there are obstacles. I wonder what they might be?

And how exactly, do they "integrate these devices"? Put the UIs in a blender and hope for the best?

Look, the reason Apple came out of nowhere with the iPhone and started making serious inroads in the market is because they worked the hell out of the UI. It's easy enough, at this point, to look at Zune's white on black typography based zooming and declare the iPhone OS "dated", but the fact is when you want to do more than impress your friends with animations, you want a UI and OS that someone has sweated over to make functional. You don't get that kind of functionality by having the WinMo people look at what the Zune people are doing and saying "Cool! Love the truncated list headers! We can use that! And the zooming and switching? Neat!" You get it by thinking a lot about what people want to do with their hand held computers and figuring out ways to make that easy. The Zune makes it easy to navigate lists of media. So does the Nano, for that matter, should Apple merge the Nano and the iPhone?

I never said they had to put the UIs in a blender or anything of the sort. It comes down to the API MS uses for the Zune HD and the one they will use for WinMo 7. It's different. The one Apple uses for iPhone/iPod Touch is the same. I am saying that one day they might integrate these APIs, which is probably not a priority for them. Read the same quote that you quoted. The guys says that it is possible that it will happen sometime in the future.

Oh please tell me you're kidding. "The only way Apple will pull ahead of Microsoft"? So because MS has released a PMP with a pretty interface, and you're willing to make a frankly incredible chain of assertions about How Its All Going To Come Together, all of a sudden Apple's playing "catch up"? And MS only writes excellent software but they're done in by their hardware partners. Man, and they talk about Apple people drinking the koolaid......

Maybe you should read my post a little more carefully and reply back. Specifically where I do not mention Zune HD in the whole post.

I agree that eventually the PMP market will be absorbed by mobile computers. However, I think that mobile platforms still have at least another few generations to go before they can really absorb the market. I would say that nothing is ahead of the iPhone/iTouch when it comes to mobile platforms, and they are still quite a ways away from being comparable to a laptop in your pocket. So much so that at this point the ZuneHD, which is a PMP first, is at least capable of being as powerful as the iPod Touch. The only difference is the amount of software available. Advances in hardware capabilities will be the driving force behind mobile computing, and as it stands, we just aren't there yet. We're still kind of in the MP3 player on steroids stage.

Despite my experience with Vista I don't think the people at Microsoft are dummies. It seems to me like they are at least trying to incorporate the Zune into the Xbox360. I don't know what their overall plan is, I would assume that they understand that eventually everyone is going to want a box in their pocket that does everything. I think it is clear that the ZuneHD is a stepping stone on the media side of the river towards that. I would say much in the same way that the iTouch was a stepping stone for the iPhone.

What is also clear is that right now there is a large market for people who want devices that can play music as well as entertain them with mini-games while they sit on the bus. The ZuneHD has actually been selling quite well, and I can certainly forsee the ZuneHD competing in that marketplace. Of course, there are still plenty of ways that Microsoft could screw the pooch.

I don't think Microsoft is run by a bunch of dummies. I think they are too large for their own good. They have multiple departments working on similar products, quite possibly without proper coordination between them. Furthermore, if they can overcome the communication and coordination issues related to the size of the company, they have to worry about antitrust issues if they tie their products too closely together. Those two factors, in my opinion, limit Microsofts ability to create a killer device or media centric environment.

I agree that the personal media player market isn't going to disapear overnight, but focusing on that market won't allow Microsoft to really expand the sales of the Zune like they could in the mobile computing market (if they could produce something competetive that is). The Zune HD is a very capable device, it could certainly power the apps the iPhone OS devices use, but it doesn't need mere software. It would need a total revamp, from the OS up. For one the Apps section is not suited for navigating more than say 10 apps, after that it would become a chore. Secondly, and more importantly, the Zune HD sucks at launching apps. I've seen videos of the calculator app taking upwards of 10 seconds to load, that should be nearly instantaneous, I can only imagine what larger apps would be like. I don't know why apps take so long to load (maybe they run in a virtualized environment instead of natively on the OS or something), but it is clear that something would need to be changed on an OS/firmware level. Add to that the need for an SDK for developers, and I don't think the Zune will be anything but a PMP that can do apps (poorly) for quite some time with the one caveat that the racing game they are developing will probably look amazing. Microsoft choose to not make this a mobile computing platform, and if they change their mind, they will have a lot of work to do.

I never said they had to put the UIs in a blender or anything of the sort. It comes down to the API MS uses for the Zune HD and the one they will use for WinMo 7. It's different. The one Apple uses for iPhone/iPod Touch is the same. I am saying that one day they might integrate these APIs, which is probably not a priority for them. Read the same quote that you quoted. The guys says that it is possible that it will happen sometime in the future.

Well, I guess anything is possible, I'm just not sure what "integrating" the Zune and WinMo would mean, even at the API level, if the basic approach of the UIs are radically different.

An app that runs on a WinMo 7 phone might run on a Zune, but very quickly, if you intend to do more than a few stand alone games and such, you start running into problems with how those apps fit into the overall framework of the UI, how (or if) they interact with other apps, share data, etc.

I'm just mystified as to why everyone has decided that the UI and underlying frameworks have no bearing on the overall user experience, when it comes to all these app that apparently will be trivial to toss on the Zune HD, should MS decide to do so.

I keep using the Xbox example, but I think it works: you could no doubt run Office on an Xbox, you could make the case that is has plenty of CPU and video horsepower, all you need is a wireless keyboard and you're good. But would that make any sense?

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

Maybe you should read my post a little more carefully and reply back. Specifically where I do not mention Zune HD in the whole post.

Well, you appear to be talking in fairly abstract terms about some kind of synergy wherein MS dominates..... something, on account of the synergy. And this is a thread about the Zune HD, so forgive me for assuming that you figure the Zune HD or its synergistic progeny play some role in this.

At any rate, MS has been "threatening" to dominate this consumer space or another for as long as I can remember, and all that while Apple has steadily been racking up some pretty big wins, so I still don't see where speculating about a grand unified future for MS somehow magically transforms the landscape where Apple, who is rapidly becoming the preeminent distributor of digital content in the world, needs to do a bunch of things right now to "catch up" or be consigned to irrelevance. I mean, that just seems a bit much.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

Addabox, I will leave you with this. According to Paul Thurrott (he runs WinSuperSite and is pretty much well connected with the goings-on at Microsoft), the Windows Mobile, Zune, Xbox, and Windows Media Center teams are in the same building of Microsoft's campus and are in the same department. If that doesn't show a strong sign that Microsoft is planning on close integration with these products, I have no idea what you would say is short of an official announcement.

Addabox, I will leave you with this. According to Paul Thurrott (he runs WinSuperSite and is pretty much well connected with the goings-on at Microsoft), the Windows Mobile, Zune, Xbox, and Windows Media Center teams are in the same building of Microsoft's campus and are in the same department. If that doesn't show a strong sign that Microsoft is planning on close integration with these products, I have no idea what you would say is short of an official announcement.

Which is exactly one Rendered Concept Video more than we currently know about Apple's (alleged) MacPad/iTablet...

Whether you, or any of the other naysayers, want to accept it, with the ZUNE HD/Marketplace, as well as the current MS OS Roadmap, the days of Apple product complacency are over, and it can do nothing but make for more innovative products in the very near future from both companies.

Which is exactly one Rendered Concept Video more than we currently know about Apple's (alleged) MacPad/iTablet...

Whether you, or any of the other naysayers, want to accept it, with the ZUNE HD/Marketplace, as well as the current MS OS Roadmap, the days of Apple product complacency are over, and it can do nothing but make for more innovative products in the very near future from both companies.

Apple's Party's Over - Indeed!

I know! Like when MS made videos about the Origami! That was three years ago and Apple hasn't made one single video of a product they'll never make to respond! LOL, Apple, LOL!

And, man, you said it, when you combine the awesomeness of ZUNE HD MARKETPLACE with THE ROADMAP and maybe just a sprinkle of CONCEPT VIDEOS, well, I don't see why Apple even bothers, at this point. The app store is a flop, iTunes is a disaster, the iPod was a flash in the pan and the iPhone is soon to be exposed. ON ACCOUNT OF MY MASSIVE HEAD WOUNDS.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

I think the pmp is dead and just needs burying. The only people who own pit are those who can't, for some reason, own an iPhone. They either hate AT&T, can't get out of their current contracts, or are kids with parents that can't or won't give them an iPhone. Eventually, everyone will have access to a phone they actually like and that does everything they want in a portable device. Until then, the pmp continues to exists, but that market diminishes as the smartphone market grows. If Apple had any real competition in the consumer smartphone market, the pmp would already be history. My two cents.

Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...

I think the pmp is dead and just needs burying. The only people who own pit are those who can't, for some reason, own an iPhone. They either hate AT&T, can't get out of their current contracts, or are kids with parents that can't or won't give them an iPhone. Eventually, everyone will have access to a phone they actually like and that does everything they want in a portable device. Until then, the pmp continues to exists, but that market diminishes as the smartphone market grows. If Apple had any real competition in the consumer smartphone market, the pmp would already be history. My two cents.

Sup, I own an iPhone and a Zune HD because the iPod functionality on the iPhone is unintuitive and uninspired. In my opinion it is barely functional.

Sup, I own an iPhone and a Zune HD because the iPod functionality on the iPhone is unintuitive and uninspired. In my opinion it is barely functional.

I'm curious about what you find better with the Zune. Can't try one out myself. Double tapping the home button for the basic controls, even if locked, is usually good enough for me. I will agree on the the unintuitive part. Tapping on the album art to show the lyrics, turn shuffle on and off, create a genius playlist, and show the playback slider is not obvious... but once you know that, it is no longer a problem.

I love Apple and I've owned nearly every model of iPod that ever existed, starting with the 5GB original iPod.

That said, owning a brand new iPod Touch as well as an iPod Classic, and with the experience of owning all those other iPods, I would have to agree that music functionality on the iPod Touch is barely useable without the headphones with remote, and I hate the apple headphones.

Where is that damn remote extension for third-party headphones!? Apple promised it would be forthcoming when the idiotic Shuffle3 was first released, and it still doesn't exist (or is hard to find, to say the least).

Anyway, it doesn't matter, as the Classic is still my music playback device of choice by a wide margin. I love the Touch for apps, games, and connectivity.

The Touch, unbelievably, and to my great disappointment, also sucks for video compared to the Classic. With the Classic I can put my music videos on random shuffle and output to my TV. There's no way to do this with the Touch. This is asinine.

I love Apple and I've owned nearly every model of iPod that ever existed, starting with the 5GB original iPod.

That said, owning a brand new iPod Touch as well as an iPod Classic, and with the experience of owning all those other iPods, I would have to agree that music functionality on the iPod Touch is barely useable without the headphones with remote, and I hate the apple headphones.

Where is that damn remote extension for third-party headphones!? Apple promised it would be forthcoming when the idiotic Shuffle3 was first released, and it still doesn't exist (or is hard to find, to say the least).

Anyway, it doesn't matter, as the Classic is still my music playback device of choice by a wide margin. I love the Touch for apps, games, and connectivity.

The Touch, unbelievably, and to my great disappointment, also sucks for video compared to the Classic. With the Classic I can put my music videos on random shuffle and output to my TV. There's no way to do this with the Touch. This is asinine.

+1. I, however, am switching from an iPod Touch to a new Classic. I have 80GB of music and 20GB of videos on my iTunes and my 32GB 3GS is already full. Thus, a Touch would be of little meaning to me since I have an iPhone, an iPod Classic would be a wise choice for me..l

People keep saying this, but it doesn't appear to be true. Just because hardware is capable doesn't make any given device potentially anything. That's software's job, and software doesn't magically spring to life because the hardware "could" do something.

Claiming that the Zune is just some apps away from being a Touch competitor is exactly like saying the Xbox is just a few apps away from being an iMac competitor. Sure, the iMac has more apps now, but the Xbox totally wipes the floor with the iMac when it comes to game play, and that's a great foundation to build on, right?

No. Software will be the driving force behind mobile computing, as Apple has shown, and Apple ended the "MP3 player on steroids" era. Just because MS wants to make that a product category doesn't' mean anyone else has to.

This is...... not good. As in makes no sense whatsoever. The Zune isn't a "stepping stone" in the sense that the Touch is a stepping stone, because the Touch is everything an iPhone is sans cell radio and phone app, running the same OS, and they both are here now and full fledged pocket computers, whereas the Zune is not. And does not share anything, at the moment, with any phone software MS makes. You're using "stepping stone" in two completely unrelated ways to imply that both MS and Apple are feeling their way to the future of mobile computing, but Apple is already doing it. MS is doing whatever it is they're doing, but the Zune certainly doesn't represent the future.

So now it's "mini-games" that people want, because, just coincidentally, it's mini-games that the Zune offers. I have no idea when it became clear that there is a large market for people who just want music, movies and mini-games, when they can pay the same money and get a hell of a lot more. But all of a sudden that idea, that what people are really longing for is the simplicity of not having to deal with all that functionality, has become quite popular. I wonder why?

I'm not surprised that the Zune would sell well initially-- it's novel, it's pretty, and there are a certain number of people that will jump at the chance to buy anything that doesn't suck and isn't Apple.

But eventually the novelty will wear off, and people will realize that what they have is a fancy iPod with a browser. Back when Apple only made scroll wheel iPods, that would have been amazingly competitive.

Honestly,

One could 'pick apart' any/all aspects of this addabox tirade, but I'll just sum it up by asking -

Sup, I own an iPhone and a Zune HD because the iPod functionality on the iPhone is unintuitive and uninspired. In my opinion it is barely functional.

The core media functionality of the ZUNE HD very effectively exposes the iPod Touch as the archaic/stagnant technology that it truly is.

Of course the naysayers will exclaim... But The Touch Is A Pocket Computer (Blah... Blah... Blah) which of course can be said of any/all media player, phone, handheld gaming system et al., and especially the ZUNE HD, a portable/pocketable device far more technologically advanced (display, processor, hybrid digital radio, high definition video output, GPU, and the like) than any iteration of the iPod Touch.

Personally, I like my iPod Touch(s) just fine, but when it comes to which is the more capable device, the fact is, my ZUNE HD is far ahead in the hardware department.

The core media functionality of the ZUNE HD very effectively exposes the iPod Touch as the archaic/stagnant technology that it truly is.

Of course the naysayers will exclaim... But The Touch Is A Pocket Computer (Blah... Blah... Blah) which of course can be said of any/all media player, phone, handheld gaming system et al., and especially the ZUNE HD, a portable/pocketable device far more technologically advanced (display, processor, hybrid digital radio, high definition video output, GPU, and the like) than any iteration of the iPod Touch.

For some kind of hardware reviewer, your persistence and style sure makes you sound like a biased astroturfer.

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Personally, I like my iPod Touch(s) just fine, but when it comes to which is the more capable device, the fact is, my ZUNE HD is far ahead in the hardware department.

And that really sums you up. As these kinds of devices turn more and more to the software... your still bleating about hardware.

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Now let's see what developers do with the ZUNE apps store

Well they had better be quick. Microsoft has made it clear that Zune hardware will get, probably, one upgrade... and that will be the end of it. Zune will end up as 'software and services' and will probably replace WMP on the PC.

ZUne HD enjoyed the hype... and had a good launch. NPD will probably announce some pretty solid sales figure... but the 15 minutes of fame is over.

And..... I don't get it. It's fine, I guess, but I really don't know why anyone would get particularly excited over this device.

It's got marginally better blacks than an LCD screen, but I didn't find the display "stunning" or "game changing" or anything like that. It looked fine.

The "OS" consists of lists that zoom. How this constitutes some kind of leap past the iPhone OS escapes me. I'm serious, what the hell is up with people claiming that the Zune HD represents some kind of huge advance in a mobile OS? Sorry, that's bizarre and delusional. It. Has. Lists. That. Zoom.

The navigation is somewhat unintuitive, since "back" is either a tap that summons an arrow, unavailable, or the home button, and you have no way of knowing what's what.

So, it competes real well with the Nano. Nano has iTunes, Zune HD has subscription services. Nano has a camera, Zune HD has HD video out. Nano is cheaper, Zune HD has bigger, nicer screen.

The idea that the Zune HD in any way competes with the Touch, much less makes it look "stale", is a joke. The idea that "lists that zoom" will somehow morph into an actual mobile OS by adding a few apps borders on insane.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

And..... I don't get it. It's fine, I guess, but I really don't know why anyone would get particularly excited over this device.

It's got marginally better blacks than an LCD screen, but I didn't find the display "stunning" or "game changing" or anything like that. It looked fine.

The "OS" consists of lists that zoom. How this constitutes some kind of leap past the iPhone OS escapes me. I'm serious, what the hell is up with people claiming that the Zune HD represents some kind of huge advance in a mobile OS? Sorry, that's bizarre and delusional. It. Has. Lists. That. Zoom.

The navigation is somewhat unintuitive, since "back" is either a tap that summons an arrow, unavailable, or the home button, and you have no way of knowing what's what.

So, it competes real well with the Nano. Nano has iTunes, Zune HD has subscription services. Nano has a camera, Zune HD has HD video out. Nano is cheaper, Zune HD has bigger, nicer screen.

The idea that the Zune HD in any way competes with the Touch, much less makes it look "stale", is a joke. The idea that "lists that zoom" will somehow morph into an actual mobile OS by adding a few apps borders on insane.

Actually the only 'joke' here is that you're even pretending to be remotely objective...

Suggestion: The next time you attempt to evaluate a non-Apple device, try removing those Apple-Colored Fan-Biased Goggles.

Actually the only 'joke' here is that you're even pretending to be remotely objective...

Suggestion: The next time you attempt to evaluate a non-Apple device, try removing those Apple-Colored Fan-Biased Goggles.

Oh for God's sake, you've been pimping the Zune like a giddy school girl with a feverish crush. You make the average Apple partisan look like a model of decorum and restraint, and you're in no position to lecture anyone about fan-biased goggles.

I don't even own a Touch, I don't really care about these products that much. Maybe that's why I'm not overcome with awe and wonder when I see a little bitty screen with slightly improved contrast. Maybe that's why I don't pass out from delight when I see a very basic, list-based hierarchical menu structure tarted up with zooms and big type faces.

Sorry that I can't share in your wildly disproportionate ecstasy over a perfectly decent portable music and video player, but it's not a product category that's very interesting, these days, no matter how big you make the category headings.

And, again, the idea that this ability to move from list to list with a bit of animated panache is somehow going to "evolve" into an "operating system" that leaves the iPhone OS in the dust is just foolish. Only a rabid fanboy would imagine otherwise.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

Oh for God's sake, you've been pimping the Zune like a giddy school girl with a feverish crush. You make the average Apple partisan look like a model of decorum and restraint, and you're in no position to lecture anyone about fan-biased goggles.

I don't even own a Touch, I don't really care about these products that much. Maybe that's why I'm not overcome with awe and wonder when I see a little bitty screen with slightly improved contrast. Maybe that's why I don't pass out from delight when I see a very basic, list-based hierarchical menu structure tarted up with zooms and big type faces.

Sorry that I can't share in your wildly disproportionate ecstasy over a perfectly decent portable music and video player, but it's not a product category that's very interesting, these days, no matter how big you make the category headings.

And, again, the idea that this ability to move from list to list with a bit of animated panache is somehow going to "evolve" into an "operating system" that leaves the iPhone OS in the dust is just foolish. Only a rabid fanboy would imagine otherwise.

... and therein lies the problem with your little tirade.

I (personally) OWN every model, of every generation of iPod yet released (save the new CLASSIC), in addition to OWNING every generation of every Zune ever released, so I post from a perspective of long-term experience with these devices, as opposed to someone who just happened to 'play' with one (Zune HD) for a few minutes at some brick-and-mortar store.

I suggest you either put your money where your mouth is, or just stay out of the conversation -

I (personally) OWN every model, of every generation of iPod yet released (save the new CLASSIC), in addition to OWNING every generation of every Zune ever released, so I post from a perspective of long-term experience with these devices, as opposed to someone who just happened to 'play' with one (Zune HD) for a few minutes at some brick-and-mortar store.

I suggest you either put your money where your mouth is, or just stay out of the conversation -

That, however, does not change the nature of the argument you have been making-- that the Zune HD represents some kind of massive advancement of the art, that it eclipses the Touch, and that the Zune HD "OS" is poised to revolutionized hand held computing.

Those things are demonstrably ridiculous. I don't have to live with a Zune HD for months to discern that, because the Zune HD is a relatively limited device that just does a few things. It's a PMP. That's it.

The argument you've been making is akin to claiming that, say, a new flat screen TV with on screen widgets and internet functionality is poised to take over the desktop computer market, because the widgets have really cool animations and the contrast ratio is outstanding.

It's just not a reasonable thing to assert. It wouldn't be a reasonable thing to assert if you owned every TV every made, because that's not the point. The point is some fundamental category confusion on your part, coupled with a level of enthusiasm for the product that seems to have trumped your common sense.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.