as far as raffles go, i for one was ecstatic when i came across a recent raffle offering chances to win a ticket for $10 a pop.keep your fingers and toes crossed for me: step has not materialized (yet), so i figured why not take a shot at a raffle.

the ticket situation has already made me a compulsive-inbox-checker, why not become a compulsive gambler while i'm at it?

besides, even if i win nothing, at least i know i have donated to fund a playa art project

But, I am not paying a crazy amount to be in it ... MUCH, MUch, much less than face value, for instance. And, I really want that art to make it out to teh Playa (I also made a separate donation and will help at work parties, etc).

Paying a fraction of the ticket price for a chance to attend something I wouldn't be able to otherwise doesn't feel like scalping. The gross revenue of a raffle isn't the same as an individual paying x amount, above and beyond face value, to participate. The procurement of the ticket is on more of an even playing field - for the most part. Because, I could buy $320 worth of tickets - even $1000 worth - and still not get the ticket. So, a raffle isn't scalping or a discrete markup where the 'highest bidder/best funded' actually does win.

My ambivalence was driven by the regretful feeling that statistics and probability has loomed so large over the ticketing process and having to engage in another round of hoping the stars align.

48_love wrote:Paying a fraction of the ticket price for a chance to attend something I wouldn't be able to otherwise doesn't feel like scalping. The gross revenue of a raffle isn't the same as an individual paying x amount, above and beyond face value, to participate. The procurement of the ticket is on more of an even playing field - for the most part. Because, I could buy $320 worth of tickets - even $1000 worth - and still not get the ticket. So, a raffle isn't scalping or a discrete markup where the 'highest bidder/best funded' actually does win.

It is nice that you don't have to feel like you're participating in scalping while the ticket seller pulls in multiple times the face value of the ticket, I guess?

wraith wrote:It is nice that you don't have to feel like you're participating in scalping while the ticket seller pulls in multiple times the face value of the ticket, I guess?

The raffle ended. They made $1100, I think. Sure, the project made more than face value of the ticket from the raffle. But, it's not like one individual was asked to pony up a premium over face value for the right to attend. If the project was saying something to the effect: "we need to raise money, so we're selling this ticket for $1100!" that would feel like/actually be scalping.

edit: it was actually two tickets, so the premium over face value was even less. so, it doesn't feel like the end of the world ... which is nice, I guess?

If I understand the whole shebang correctly the Borg awarded 10,000 tickets (and maybe more to come) to established theme camps and those involved in large scale art installations in order to preserve the fabric of Burning. Now some of these camps are raffling off "extra" tickets to help fund their projects. So they were either VERY lucky in the lottery and/or awarded more tickets than they really need and now they are closing their borders to newbies they might have previously welcomed .... for $$$. Net effect is excluding people from their immediate circle for profit ... even if that profit is for a good cause !?

Those camps didn't even need to get lucky aside from receiving directed distribution in the first place. If anyone in the camp won more than one ticket, the spare ticket could be multi-part scalped raffled to cover costs. For example, if someone won two tickets in the lottery, and assuming the winner himself cannot receive a ticket from directed distribution, the person who would normally receive that second ticket could get a directed ticket instead, and the spare gets scalped raffled.

Now whether this whole directed distribution + raffling racket is really excluding newbies is quite debatable. I expect that most newbies asking to join a camp source their own tickets, rather than relying on directed distribution to provide one (though the latter did happen). There was also a short window in which directed distribution could be utilized. I would also be more opposed to camps using their spare tickets in order to attract people to their camp, notably to pay camp dues--another profit mechanism.

In the future, I think we'll end up seeing a lot of camps utilizing all their resources to buy as many tickets as possible just to scalp raffle tickets to pay for attending Burning Man--especially if directed distribution can guarantee tickets will be available anyway. This shit needs to stop, but unfortunately this scalping-in-raffling-clothing profiteering mechanism appears to be condoned by BMOrg.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

After one realizes they have donated a triple-digit sum, total, to various ticket raffles... it begins to be saddening But I'll press on, and I'll keep plonking down my $5s $10s and $20s, because I guess I'm supporting a good cause getting more art out there (except for one raffle, where it seemed like I was just helping a dubstep camp get their private party bus out there... but I digress), and a chance at another ticket ain't so bad, I guess... It's a weird and ugly grey area. I haven't been around long enough to form a real opinion, I guess.

>WE CAN JUST RUN A PLUG N PLAY BUSINESS, SELL (tickets and include ...ns) SPOTS IN OUR CAMP..... FOR FAT WADS OF CASH...

>raffle some art.. or services, or hugs.. or concert tickets, or a blender to fund yer camp... the LLC hasnt regulated that yet

>I used to think that the art, the camps, and what they contributed to the event were personal gifts. Bought and paid for much the same as one would a Christmas gift. But now (that's all changed...ns)

All Well Said.

Raffler's suck plain and simple. Sure it's for "their art" BUT if I have to burn up money, enter/loose at multiple raffles and eventually pay a scalpers price (still weighing my personal ethical take on if I will do that) ... those are many less dollar I have in MY pocket to contribute to my local groups permitted,interactive Mutant Vehicle, more time and mental energy I am devoting to procuring a ticket while at this time three years ago I was helping with the M.V.buzzing along happily making give away pendents etc. etc. By the way I AM still helping with our MV whether I go or not this year (shameless self promotion).

Hey raffler's... fellow artist ... share the love. Fix the game and let me win the ticket ( or just sell it to me at face value) I won't tell ... promiseI won't ! And we will all have a better Burn for it ! Promise !

If I enter a raffle it's not something I am doing gladly, willingly because I am supporting a worthy cause and it's OK if I don't win, and a pleasant surprise if I do.It's because I am desperately, diligently seeking a ticket.

How many people (myself included ) would be entering the raffle if they had an opportunity to buy a ticket at face ? (Which I would have a better chance at if the ticket were recirculated via STEP. )

Way different than happily entering a raffle for a chance at getting a ticket for a buck or two,and if I don't win in the end game I can buy my ticket at face.

nocturnal_steve wrote:How many people (myself included ) would be entering the raffle if they had an opportunity to buy a ticket at face?

I know this isn't the intended meaning of that question, but it gave me a great idea for optimizing the profit margins on raffles: the raffle prize will be the "opportunity" to buy the ticket at face value. It makes the raffle itself purely profit!

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

nocturnal_steve wrote:How many people (myself included ) would be entering the raffle if they had an opportunity to buy a ticket at face?

I know this isn't the intended meaning of that question, but it gave me a great idea for optimizing the profit margins on raffles: the raffle prize will be the "opportunity" to buy the ticket at face value. It makes the raffle itself purely profit!

nocturnal_steve wrote:How many people (myself included ) would be entering the raffle if they had an opportunity to buy a ticket at face?

I know this isn't the intended meaning of that question, but it gave me a great idea for optimizing the profit margins on raffles: the raffle prize will be the "opportunity" to buy the ticket at face value. It makes the raffle itself purely profit!

I mean, you add a level of indirection. But the ticket is still most likely to go to the person who has bought the most raffle tickets.... in essence, whoever is willing/able to pay the most above face value.

I'm not comfortable with raffles. But banning them's not really feasible, and even if it were, I probably wouldn't be comfortable with that, either. (Don't mind me. I'm constitutionally uncomforatble...).

If you want drama to stop following you everywhere, try letting go of the leash.

Really, I just want some consistency. If we're not supposed to profit in the sale of tickets, then why are fundraising mechanisms (which are fundamentally about profit) involving tickets--of any sorts--allowed and condoned? If raffles are allowed, why not also outright allow scalping for "fundraising"? Conversely, if scalping is disallowed (ignoring scalping laws in certain states), why are other fundraising mechanisms such as raffles allowed?

The whole point of preventing scalping is to prevent people from buying tickets simply to sell off for profit. Now we're seeing the same practice with raffles under the guise of "good causes." There can be "good causes" for directly (rather than indirectly, in the case of a raffle) selling above face value too. So what is the distinction here?

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens