this is 100 percent the fault of the republicans. one. hundred. percent.

if they would have simply passed the debt ceiling raise - as they have dozens of times before - there would be no "fiscal cliff." the debt ceiling raise simply authorizes congress to pay for spending it has already passed. it is what's known as a "pro forma" vote - a formality. or so it was up until last year, when republicans decided to hold the nation hostage by threatening not to pay our bills. and what did we get for their farking childish petulance? a credit downgrade, a market drop, and the fiscal farking cliff.

Dr Dreidel:I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.

The rest of the developed world also gets by fine on nationalized healthcare, mandatory minimum vacation and paid maternity leave.

Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

Giltric:Infernalist: Giltric: zedster: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front. The more moderate Republicans getting eaten by Tea Partiers does give them reason to fear that. However, I think the tea party is now almost irrelevant, if it wasn't for gerrymandering the Republicans would have been devastated in this past election. They need to stop and listen to the public before because they are becoming a corporatist party, and even if corporations are people they cannot cast ballots yet

According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes..... 51 is greater than 47 for obama and romney in the election but why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.

400 billion in cuts are already on the table. You knew that, right?

The Spending Cuts Are Already On The Table. The Only Thing Left To Be Decided Are Tax Rates and Increases.

The problem lies in the fact that the GOP isn't at the bargaining table at all. If they sat down and started hashing things out, they may find that 400B can go up...if they compromise with some tax rate changes and increases.

But that's the problem. They're not into bargaining and 'that' is going to be the death of them.

Giltric:zedster: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front. The more moderate Republicans getting eaten by Tea Partiers does give them reason to fear that. However, I think the tea party is now almost irrelevant, if it wasn't for gerrymandering the Republicans would have been devastated in this past election. They need to stop and listen to the public before because they are becoming a corporatist party, and even if corporations are people they cannot cast ballots yet

According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes..... 51 is greater than 47 for obama and romney in the election but why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.

400 billion in cuts are already on the table. You knew that, right?

The Spending Cuts Are Already On The Table. The Only Thing Left To Be Decided Are Tax Rates and Increases.

Giltric:Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Since we're asking rhetorical questions, who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs? The rich, who want for nothing? Or the poor and middle classes, who stretch every dollar to live?

Giltric:un4gvn666: Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Since we're asking rhetorical questions, who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs? The rich, who want for nothing? Or the poor and middle classes, who stretch every dollar to live?

I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.

Hahaha... and what did that create? 4 or 5 very jobs that lasted a couple of weeks? And how many people are doing that at any given time?

There are 10,000 poor and working class people within five minutes driving distance of you who collectively spend that much on bologna every single week.

Giltric:I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.

Sorry, gotta pile on this.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you're in the 1%. So there are 99 "poor" people for every one of you, and that includes middle class families, etc. Each family in the "poor" category would only need to spend $1000 to match what you've spent in your two projects. Let's see. Oh, look this family bought a car that cost $15,000 dollars. And this family bought a new refrigerator at $1200. And these guys bought a new TV at $1300. And this family did a $2000 landscaping project. And so on, and so on.

In the end, which group spent more money across more industries that supported more jobs? The 1% or the "poor"?

bulldg4life:Giltric: Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Does it make your eye twitch when you say something so idiotic that first year college students taking macro economics would laugh at you

To me there is a false assumption that the solution lies somewhere between the DNC and GOP positions. The assumption that a balanced budget leads to a strong economy. It is a strong economy that causes a balanced budget. You build a strong economy by investing it in.

The US should spend a minimum of $2T in pure education and infrastructure spending over the next 10 years combine with gradual taxes increases to pre-Reagan era tax rates. This type of approach would balance the budget faster than anything being discussed today.

It's easy to say "we really need to cut Defense", but when the plan to do so comes along suddenly it's a "fiscal cliff!!111!" and has to be avoided at all costs. We absolutely need the Bush Tax Cuts to expire, and we absolutely need Defense to be cut. I'm willing to pay slightly higher taxes to make that happen.

Giltric:un4gvn666: Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Since we're asking rhetorical questions, who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs? The rich, who want for nothing? Or the poor and middle classes, who stretch every dollar to live?

I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Karac:"There's an asteroid headed towards the Earth. We made it and fired it at ourselves"

And the congressional republicans response to the crisis is to blame Obama from not stopping them from getting 98% of what they wanted.

More like 100%. They got some GREAT deals offered to them when we went through this shiat last summer, and they totally rejected it. These clowns think "negotiate" means "give us everything we want right now or we'll scream." They need to do their damn jobs and do some actual work for once.

Time to go off the cliff and end the Bush tax cuts that have helped put us in this hole. And if being only $600B in the red next year is the equivalent of an asteroid hitting us, then we're all screwed, so we might as well get this over with quickly.

Giltric:Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

I know you're kiding, but that's the most galling thing to me about he "JOb Creator" label: ALL spending creates jobs, by creating demand, and frankly the rich do a poorer job of it than normal folks. Buying a $100,000 does not create 10x the automotive manufacturing jobs as the guy buying a $10k car. A $5,000 bespoke suit does not require the employ of 50x of the number of garmet workers as the $100 version being mass-produced for the Men's Warehouse.

In fact, dollar for dollar, you know who the REAL job creators are? The poorest of the Poor. Studies have shown that for every $1 you add to a food stamp benefit you create about $1.15 in new spending in the economy. Spend that same $1 on tax cuts for the top income brackets and only about $0.30 gets spent.

I'd go with ten thousand folks getting haircuts, getting their oil changed in their cars, buying groceries, calling the plumber because their shiatter is clogged, paying for electricity/water/other utilities, going to the doctor for a check up, getting lunch at the deli, buying a soda at the gas station while the gas is pumping, getting a gym membership but never going, etc, rather than buying chinese consumer electronics, but yeah, your point is still valid.

cman:Lumpmoose: One glaring problem in that segment for me: Stewart quoted Boehner directly for the Republican side then relied on Larry Kudlow to describe the Democratic position. It seemed designed to setup a false equivalence.

When it comes to skewing things in the Republican favor, aint no one a better mouthpiece than John Stewart. He is the biggest Republican of all time

Stewart should have quoted Durbin in a newspaper article if they couldn't find video. They've done it before. Kudlow is exactly the pundit crank that Stewart would normally rail against. It tainted the segment, IMHO.

One glaring problem in that segment for me: Stewart quoted Boehner directly for the Republican side then relied on Larry Kudlow to describe the Democratic position. It seemed designed to setup a false equivalence.

LouDobbsAwaaaay:It's easy to say "we really need to cut Defense", but when the plan to do so comes along suddenly it's a "fiscal cliff!!111!" and has to be avoided at all costs. We absolutely need the Bush Tax Cuts to expire, and we absolutely need Defense to be cut. I'm willing to pay slightly higher taxes to make that happen.

I say bring on the fiscal cliff.

Gotta raise the AMT, or it'll nail people making $200K-$500k a lot more than the tax raise would.Also, it would be nice to keep Pell Grants going*.

Everything else we can handle.

*Not sure why this would eliminate Pell Grants. It's just insurance for loans that are far harder to get rid of than standard loans. You'd think that wouldn't cost much.

it's foolish to base whether or not to raise taxes on public opinion polls because NOBODY likes paying taxes. You should raise taxes if and only if you actually need to. we should've raised them 10 years ago when we started going to war but nooooooo.

zedster:Otherwise Just Fine: This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.

Retail is scared this will kill this holiday season, that should keep some pressure on to solve this fast. Plus you have the defense establishment not wanting to get hit with the cuts. I have a feeling there will be more outside pressure on the GOP then on the Dems to solve this.

The GOP is already hyperventilating about the defense cuts. The defense contractors are not amused.

Giltric:Infernalist:According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes..... 51 is greater than 47 for obama and romney in the election but why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.

400 billion in cuts are already on the table. You knew that, right?

The Spending Cuts Are Already On The Table. The Only Thing Left To Be Decided Are Tax Rates and Increases.

Dr Dreidel:>I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.

The M.I. deduction saves me a grand or two in taxes each year. I would hate to see it go, but if it's going to substantially improve the economy and our fiscal future I can accept it.

What I can't accept is discussion of it this late in the tax season. If this is going to happen, it needs to be announced before April 16th for the following tax year.

If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.

Infernalist:The GOP is split right now between those who would compromise and try to get what they can, while they can, and those that see compromise as a weakness that the Democrats will pounce upon and use to rip them to shreds.

And, like it or not, whether we go 'over the cliff' is entirely dependent on which group of GOP win out in their internal war.

I agree. The portion of the GOP that has simply folded it's arms and said "We want out way or we will continue to block this" will cause far more damage to the GOP than to the administration. I guess they are not serious about winning in 2014 / 2016 either.

Now would be the time for the GOP to rediscover "part unity" and focus on getting it done INCLUDING COMPROMISES "

Otherwise Just Fine:This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.

Retail is scared this will kill this holiday season, that should keep some pressure on to solve this fast. Plus you have the defense establishment not wanting to get hit with the cuts. I have a feeling there will be more outside pressure on the GOP then on the Dems to solve this.

Gwendolyn:zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front. The more moderate Republicans getting eaten by Tea Partiers does give them reason to fear that. However, I think the tea party is now almost irrelevant, if it wasn't for gerrymandering the Republicans would have been devastated in this past election. They need to stop and listen to the public before because they are becoming a corporatist party, and even if corporations are people they cannot cast ballots yet