Monday, February 26, 2007

Primary Aim - Mission Statement

Ancient-Eastern artificers created beautiful statues from clay to be fired in a kiln, painted and sold. Occasionally, something would go wrong, leaving flaws in the finished product. Unscrupulous merchants would then purchase these flawed items at a vastly-reduced price, fill the gaps with wax and paint over them, and then ask the same price for them as for the perfect products. Advocates of best practice would attempt to counter the problem in the market-place by certifying with signs declaring their wares to be SINE CERA-'without wax': a claim for which credibility was strengthened by willingly displaying their products out of the shade - in the full heat of the sun. Disreputable dealers became 'shady characters' - lest the sun's heat should expose the fraudulent nature of their products.

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There has been a call to those leading the church called Mosaic to be taken out of the shade and to be placed into the full heat of the sun. Current members, former members and outsiders (those never attended the church) are asking for this leadership group to be placed in the sunlight to be examined. Some are arguing that the method in which this call to accountability could or should have been handled different. They argue that there could have been more private meetings, more private discussions and more private correspondence. This approach has proven fruitless over many years, and has only caused even more pain to the wounded.

Considering this leadership group will not stand and be accountable, we must expose the truth for the church body to examine. It is time for the church to take action. The mission of Mosaic of Pain is as follows:

The primary aim of Mosaic Of Pain is to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders and lead pastor Erwin McManus, considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse of God’s word.

98 comments:

Ryan
said...

so by definition,you are calling for all 40 + paid staff in leadership to resign? Or all 1000 + volunteer staff memebers? Or when you said "specifically" did you mean "just" the elders and Erwin? Also, how do you propose to have the leadership examined to show they are/are not sine cera? Who, and by what standards are you going to have this process done by? Can that process be ultimately un biased? Will you allow those who have had completel polar opposite experiences as you participate in that process, or is this exclusive to MOP?

so by definition,you are calling for all 40 + paid staff in leadership to resign? Or all 1000 + volunteer staff memebers?

Anyone that has abused their position should.

Or when you said "specifically" did you mean "just" the elders and Erwin? Also, how do you propose to have the leadership examined to show they are/are not sine cera? Who, and by what standards are you going to have this process done by? Can that process be ultimately unbiased?

There are neutral Christian organizations for exactly this purpose.

Will you allow those who have had completel polar opposite experiences as you participate in that process, or is this exclusive to MOP?

Ryan,It strikes me as odd that you should still bring up the argument that there are many who have had "complete polar opposite experiences". Just because five alter boys had nothing but good experiences doesn't mean the one alter boy wasn't abused. How many people need to come forward to say they were abused. What value is there in having people tell their story of how they were not abused? How do you think it feels to those who have been systematically manipulated and abused to hear you say, gee, I've had no problems? Make this personal. If you had been abused, how would you want others to treat you? Would you want to be called a whiner, bitter, a liar? Honestly, how many people need to give you details about their experiences? If a former staffer shared that he opened the door to his office one day to find another staffer going through his files on Erwin's orders, would that shock you? If several former staffers came to you and shared how they personally witnessed and participated in the heavy handed intimidation of members, would that bother you? How many people need to come forward and tell you they were told to leave the church and ordered not to tell anybody about their experience. How many? Can you answer that question honestly? I don't think you can come up with a number because to you, these claims are unfathomable. Does it bother you that Erwin claims that he took over a dying church when at the time Brady had more missionaries in the field than most SBC churches in America? Does it bother you that at a recent conference he said the only people who complained were the people who weren't bringing non believers to church? If you don't know the legacy of Brother Tom, Carol Davis, and others who were forced out of Mosaic, than I see why these statements don't bother you. I challenge you to study the history of your church. Call the SBC and ask about the contributions of Brady. Find out for yourself if Brady was in fact dying. Find out how many Brady missionarys gave up the luxuries of American life to go preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. I understand missional living, but being a "missionary" living out your dream as an aspiring director in Hollywood, or some other artistic "missionary" pursuit is just not the same. I am not saying there is no value in missional living, but it is easier than having the lives of your children threatened while living in the 10/40 window. Mosaic is full of some incredibly talented, accomplished people. Brady was built on the backs of broken families and sinful men who were redeemed and transformed into amazing leaders. Mosaic seems to attract the cream of the crop. Brady took what came through the door. I wonder where 12 smelly fishermen would have felt more welcome.

Well, there was a lot in that comment. First off, I have never heard Erwin call Brady dying. In fact in all of the conversations he has had, both publicly and privately, he has been nothing but complimentary of Brady. He called it an already innovative church at the Origins Conference this last year. The “worst” I have every heard say of Brady is that is was at a plateau.

Mosaic still does have more missionaries than any other SBC church still. I don’t see how Erwin changed any of that. In fact, NAMB has been pouring money into Mosaic conferences and events because of the amount of work they are doing both at home and overseas.

I know Brother Tom and Carol Davis quite well. I spent several days with them while they were on furlough in Riverside. You know what though, Mosaic never came up. They’re too busy going about and discussing what God has called them to do.

And, I don’t know most of you but it seems like only about 10 people have shared their actual stories, Cris, David, Robbie, Yepiz, Kimbery, Yvonne, Ruben and Frank (and some anonymous comments from who knows where).

So having that said, I don’t know where to go from here where you have had some bad experiences, but there are just as many people who have had exceptionally good experiences. Most of the bad experiences have been either opinions of vaguely described. I am not saying that negates yours, but it means that the descriptions of Erwin’s behavior and actions are at best inconsistent. I am not saying that Erwin is completely without fault, we all have background baggage. I am sure if I did enough investigating, I could find a handful of people whom you have hurt deeply and would call your character evil. I just think that we need to see where the middle ground is and settle there. I just don’t know if that can happen here.

Ryan, thanks for all your posts. It is nice to know somebody at Mosaic is interested in listening to those of us who have stories to tell. I am not sure how much you know about the Church on Brady which Erwin took over. Do you know where Brother Tom Wolf went after he was forced out at Mosaic? He went into the mission field. After 20+ years of building a church and training up missionaries, Tom Wolf and his wife Linda left the comforts of home and practiced what he preached all his life. I think it says a lot about the character of the man. If we don't acknowledge what was done to him, I think we fail to honor his life's work for the kingdom. Even though you don't know him, I think you and everybody else in leadership positions should know the truth about the man. Ask Robert Martinez what he thinks about what was done to Tom Wolf, Carlo Davis, and other pastors who were forced out and then given a going away ceremony as if it was there idea to leave and start a new church somewhere. How disingenuous is that to strip someone of their duties and authority after years of service and then hug them in front of the whole congregation and say they have decided to move into other areas of ministry. It happened more than once and I can still see the looks on the faces of those that went quietly.

Ryan said; I know Brother Tom and Carol Davis quite well. I spent several days with them while they were on furlough in Riverside. You know what though, Mosaic never came up. They’re too busy going about and discussing what God has called them to do.

I appreciate your response. You are blessed to know them. Bro Tom and Carol would not bring up Mosaic. As you said, they are too busy in their calling, you're right, but if you wanted to know the truth, they would give you an honest answer. The question is, do you really want to know. You are in a position to hear from both sides, from people you deem credible. Do you really want to know or are you content to let sleeping dogs lie?

all I am saying is that they are very credible and strong people. Brother Tom is one of the strongest I know. If he felt that Erwin had done something meriting his removal, he would have spoken out. Let's not forget that Tom was the one that asked Erwin to come on as pastor. And, while Erwin had a different vision for the church, I trust Tom's judgment in people

Ryan,Bro. Tom never had a chance to speak out. But give him a call or email. He would set you straight on Erwin. He is serving God, but I'm sure he wouldn't have any problem telling you how Erwin lied and how he and the elders munipulated his removal. I challenge you --contact him. And then talk as you know him and know why he hasn't spoken on these blogs. He knows he asked Erwin on. But it was also our fault in voting for him. We all share the blame. Just ask him...I think you'll probably have a change of heart. Be open minded. Because I've talked to him on this and he was hurt by what happened. MH

I don't know about pills. But lets be honest about the bad situation that was created. Erwin was to come on as pastor and lead while Brother Tom was to remain on staff as pastor as well. I love both of these men, and know that they both have big dreams and goals. That's just a horrible situation to put two leaders, one with a long and beautiful history and one trying to take the church to its next phase in a place where they were both leading at the same time. That was a recipe for disaster no matter what happened.

If Tom lead to strong, Erwin could not move forward (as Tom asked him to do). If Erwin lead to strong then Tom seemed to get booted. The scale was destined to inevitably tip into a bad situation (in either case). Erwin's side happened to be it. Also, you you really think that Brother Tom could have continued to lead with all of his work at GGBTS and abroad?

Aren't we all supposed to be held accountable for our actions? Not only with the obvious, God, but also with each other? Isn't that why we are considered the "body" of Christ, each with its own function? My point, have these concerns been taken to people who oversee "pastors" and "churches"? Forgive me for not knowing what they are called, but I know they're out there. Shouldn't everyone with first hand experiences and concerns go to them and leave it with them? The appropriate position after that would be to wait for a response. No matter what the outcome, you would of done the responsible thing, even if you felt it didn't turn out like you thought it should. The responsibility would now be in their hands, of what ever the future would bring. I relate it to, if something happened at your place of employment, there is a chain of command to follow and ultimately they have God to deal with. Am I totally off track?

Ryan,Let me remind you that Erwin agreed to be interim pastor while Bro. Tom stayed on as teaching pastor. Erwin welcomed the "recipe for disaster." When it got to tough and inconvenient--he cut him loose. You said "The scale was destined to inevitably tip into a bad situation (in either case). Erwin's side happened to be it." What are you talking about? Erwin tipped the situation, and he took Tom out. Bro. Tom was busy with his work, but he loved Brady/Mosaic and he never wanted to leave the way he did. He didn't want to leave period. You make it sound like a fairy tale. Everyone lived happily ever after. Your wrong lady. I've talked to both men, you obviously haven't. If you are seriously unbiased, and "know" Tom, I think you have some phone calls to make. Please come back and let us know what happened. MH

Ryan, I guess history truly is written by the victors. Your version of events is very clean but incomplete. Go back and read earlier posts on MOP. The night we were told about Brother Tom, we were led to believe Brother Tom was unwilling to meet with Erwin and the elders but we were not told about the "conditions" to this meeting. To refresh your memory, Brother Tom would have to come alone, he couldn't speak, and he couldn't tell anybody about what was said to him at the meeting. Would you agree to such a meeting? You have tremendous respect for Brother Tom as a leader. Do you think he should have taken the meeting under those terms of utter surrender and capitulation? Do you think it was "sin cera" for Erwin and the elders to lead us all to believe that Brother Tom was being prideful when in fact he was simply unwilling to agree to the terms of surrender? Did you know these details? Does it change your opinion of how the situation was handled? It changed mine. There should be no fear in asking questions. I pray that the Holy Spirit gives us both eyes to see.

Here's my problem discerning all of this. There are two sides to every single story here. There were several other men, men of integrity and honesty, in the meetings with the Brady/Tom transition that have a completely different story. Their perspective is radically different than yours.

Other stories told here have other perspectives from people at Mosaic that were involved. I think that one of the reasons you are not getting a response here from Mosaic members is because they are taking your stories to these people who were involved. They get another first-hand perspective and they go from there. Like I said, these people are of high integrity and are trusts. It has been said, maybe all of them have been brainwashed, but that is not likely.

So again, what do we do with all of this? Two sides, two stories, two perspectives. it is hard to say.

P.S. those random letters that blogger makes you put in to publish you comments are lame, huh :)

In the MOP mission statement you mention restitution. What exactly do you and the other MOP leaders mean here?

As Webster defines it: an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: as a : a restoration of something to its rightful owner b : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury

Also, you mention MOP leaders. I would hardly call me the leader of MOP. I am simply someone who saw the pain and have spoken up. There are many others whom may not be so visual but are doing as God has called them to do. I don't mean to be coy but rather I want you to realize that this is being "lead" by many whom have felt the mosaic of pain.

Maybe you should ask Frank Loaiza for a document that chronicles the specific events that took place in the transition from Bro Tom to Erwin. In this historical document (written during those events) there is an actual email from Erwin (distributed to all members at the time) to the missionaries and his reasons for asking Bro Tom to leave Mosaic. I think you will be very surprised as to why Bro Tom was asked to leave Mosaic as a member...Then ask yourself, after reading this document: What are the Biblical grounds for asking someone to leave a church, and was what Erwin did ethical?

Chris, if through the course of events it is determined there is fault here and repentance is made from the appropriate person(s), why is it already assumed that resignation is warranted?

I have blown it as a leader and confessed it (most of the time). Does that mean I should step down every time I sin? And for how long?

Resignation is the aim of MOP for several reasons but one stands out clear as I write this. There has been such a lack of respect for the church members for so long that as I see it there is no other way but to ask for resignation. The abuse runs deep through this core leadership team that I believe the only option is to ask for resignation.

In time, it is my understanding that more and more people are going to come forward with their first hand accounts of wrong doing. Some of these people you know, love and respect. They gain nothing by coming forward and risk losing life long friendships. They know that if they came forward they will most likely not be welcomed by Mosaic with loving arms as victims but rather as people bitter and unjustly angry.

Matt… I appreciate you being willing to ask questions and for caring for those whom have been hurt.

"I know Brother Tom and Carol Davis quite well. I spent several days with them while they were on furlough in Riverside. You know what though, Mosaic never came up. They’re too busy going about and discussing what God has called them to do.

Dude, Bro Tom is NOT married to Carol, his wifes name is LINDA!

Would you please stop saying you know them so well because you personally spent "many days with them" - and you LOVE THEM!?

I would like to see the email, but it still doesn't change the fact that there are many people at Mosaic who received those emails, yet still felt that Erwin was in the right. They stood by him and helped him make the transition. So what do we do with that? I kinda see this like a bitter divorce. Of course you are going to see the flaws in Mosaic and others are going to see the flaws in your arguments. So how do we determine what is truth?

CrisI really do hope more credible (not "anonymous" people) come forward to give us some concrete evidence of Erwin's wrongdoings. NO disrespect, but intense discussions at BBQs, under appreciation for use of an edit bay, not doing someone's wedding, asking someone to step down and get help in a time of personal family crisis are definitely not enough to call for a man's resignation. You talk about all of the pain, I am just not seeing what merits that, besides being hurt over the Brady/Mosaic transition.

Again, not trying to be cold here. To be honest, those who I know have come here have not found very convincing arguments.

Ryan,Your being cold. Please don't dismiss people's pain and hurt so callously. I know your not like that. Don't be like that. You know why Erwin has to resign. If only 10% that has been shared could be verified as truth, that would be enough for resignation. But you don't see it. Step back--It may become clear.

Where did the millions go that were raised to build a church that never was built?

You wrote:

I really do hope more credible (not "anonymous" people) come forward to give us some concrete evidence of Erwin's wrongdoings. NO disrespect, but intense discussions at BBQs, under appreciation for use of an edit bay, not doing someone's wedding, asking someone to step down and get help in a time of personal family crisis are definitely not enough to call for a man's resignation. You talk about all of the pain, I am just not seeing what merits that, besides being hurt over the Brady/Mosaic transition."

Well, a building has is not built. Is that "concrete" enough for you?

P.S. All, I heard that some members have begun asking for their donations back. And, one for sure has recieved it.

"Here's my problem discerning all of this. There are two sides to every single story here. There were several other men, men of integrity and honesty, in the meetings with the Brady/Tom transition that have a completely different story. Their perspective is radically different than yours."

Ryan, can you tell us who those "men of integrity and honesty" are? This is standard procedure when siting other sources. I do believe you when you say it, however, there are some stories going around that certain individuals have supported what happened to Thom Wolf, and when they have been asked about their position they did not support the public statement made by Mosaic. Please do not say, "This is not those individuals, I assure these men are..." Please give us their names for credible witness.

"Other stories told here have other perspectives from people at Mosaic that were involved. I think that one of the reasons you are not getting a response here from Mosaic members is because they are taking your stories to these people who were involved. They get another first-hand perspective and they go from there. Like I said, these people are of high integrity and are trusts. It has been said, maybe all of them have been brainwashed, but that is not likely."

Once again, names?

"P.S. those random letters that blogger makes you put in to publish you comments are lame, huh :)"

Ryan, Somemoby made an earlier allusion to the movie The Matrix asking you which pill you were going to take, Red for the truth or Blue to continue living as you have. I am now convinced that you don't want to know the truth. Early on at Mosaic, Erwin spoke about a paradigm shift in Christian thinking. Many of us were raised to beilieve that "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life." It is a happy and safe belief to hold. Erwin challenged that notion by teaching us that God's will may not be the safest most comfortable place to be and may in fact be the most dangerous. I find it Ironic that someone like yourself who champions Erwin and his teachings is so unwilling to ask the questions that may lead to an uncomfortable place. Earlier, I challenged you to talk to Brother Tom and Carol. Your response at that time was:

all I am saying is that they are very credible and strong people. Brother Tom is one of the strongest I know. If he felt that Erwin had done something meriting his removal, he would have spoken out. Let's not forget that Tom was the one that asked Erwin to come on as pastor. And, while Erwin had a different vision for the church, I trust Tom's judgment in people

Ryan, I withdraw that challenge. Those who want to know the truth will seek it out, and they will find it. I appoligize to Brother Tom and Carol for drawing them into this. I know they would give an honest answer to an honest question, but I would not want to put them in the uncomfortable position of answering questions from someone who has already made up thier mind.

I believe you are comfortable in your position at Mosaic. I don't believe you are ready or willing to recieve answers that may disrupt your life.

I would like to see the email, but it still doesn't change the fact that there are many people at Mosaic who received those emails, yet still felt that Erwin was in the right. They stood by him and helped him make the transition. So what do we do with that? I kinda see this like a bitter divorce. Of course you are going to see the flaws in Mosaic and others are going to see the flaws in your arguments. So how do we determine what is truth?

Ryan, I am one of those who was their that night and believed Erwin was in the right. I supported him wholeheartedly and prayed for Brother Tom that he would be restored to fellowship. That night we weren’t given all the facts. You describe it as a bitter divorce when it was more like a calculated corporate takeover or coup.

You also said:There were several other men, men of integrity and honesty, in the meetings with the Brady/Tom transition that have a completely different story. Their perspective is radically different than yours. Did these men contradict what has been said about the meeting. Do they deny the conditions that were put on Brother Tom? You still haven't answered questions about that. What do you think of those conditions? Do you blame Brother Tom for not wanting to meet under those conditions? Most importantly, do you think it was right for Erwin and the elders to only tell us half the truth? That is where it all began for me. They led us to believe that Brother Tom was the problem, that he was being prideful and bitter in not wanting to meet. Had we known whole truth, then you would have truly seen a bitter divorce and an uprising within the lay leadership. By omitting the rest of the story, Erwin and the elders ensured a more peaceful transition and power was consolidated. Ryan, answer the tough questions if you want to be part of moving this forward.

Who is Ryan? First and last name? Does he/she go to Mosaic? I am not sure Ryan if you are a real person or a pseudonym for someone at Mosaic? If at Mosaic have you been there more than 2 years?

Matthew 5:23-24 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."

Even if ALL these issues/people were wrong why can't Erwin and the ELDERS deal/talk/minister with all of the people that have been hurt? Why? Why is it Mosaic staff or someone who knows Mosaic or even Matt Shiver responding and pursuing but not Erwin and not the ELDERS? (Who are the ones who should be addressing these issues)

Ryan is just as sufficient as ex-mosaic member for the time being. I think a first name is of alot more value than a title.

I don't think that you understand. No one (and I say no one as a generalization, maybe one or two of you have) has contacted Erwin, Eric, Dave Auda, David Arcos, Janice Sakuma, Rick Yamamoto, Rickie Williams, Ralph Neighbour, or others at Mosaic. This is a public blog. If you want to have them respond to you, here are their emails:

If you are serious about contacting them, then ACTUALLY contact them. You have everything you need there.

And yes, your comeback will be "what good will that do" "we have already been beat up by them" "they will just manipulate the truth". So we are stuck in a catch 22. You want to make contact with them about your pain, but because of your pain you cannot contact them.

And, please don't say that this blog is sufficient. This is not contacting them, this is a public forum for people to hear your stories.

I did not realize you were the "official" spokesperson for Mosaic. I was scheduled to meet with a leader Thursday night. However, if I should be meeting with you then I will cancel that meeting and what?

why do you have to make everything so dang complicated? I never claimed to be an "official" spokesperson. I am trying to created roads for you to talk with Mosaic leadership. Many people have been complaining about Mosaic's silence. Well, you haven't contacted them! All I am saying is that if you want to start a conversation, then start one. If they don't respond then you can say they are being silent and don't care.

So I am dodging questions and you are dodging responsibility. In order to fulfill you mission statement:

The primary aim of Mosaic Of Pain is to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders and lead pastor Erwin McManus, considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse of God’s word.

You must first actually contact them and call for their repentance, resignation and restitution. You have yet to do that. You have talked alot about it here, but have yet to act. So who's dodging the questions?

Sigh, I am going to share here my experience of dealing with taking meetings at Mosaic (for the third time) – I will add a bit more detail for those who have read some of this before, hoping to keep it interesting and not too redundant. And, hopefully, a bit more for the “Ryans” of the world to maybe open their eyes and understand that many of us have had similar “meetings” at Mosaic. How do I know that? First hand accounts from them, and a number or posts here.

In 1999 a missionary couple was at a regional retreat in Asia that Erwin was at, also. They asked Erwin why some long time members were leaving Mosaic. Mine and my wife’s name came up in this conversation. Erwin used some information that was given to him in private, saying that was why we had left Mosaic. Even though I had a meeting with him and Robert Martinez and told them the exact reason we were leaving prior to his telling our missionary friends another reason.

I had told Erwin it was because the way the Bro Thom situation was handled. I implored he and Robert to please address the way in which the church had handled the situation. They both said, no. I said we would not feel comfortable staying there and we would need to find fellowship elsewhere. I had this meeting in the first place at the prompting of a Mosaic Elder.

When my missionary friend phoned us, upset and crying from the field, believing that my marriage was doomed, based on what Erwin had told them, I phoned that same Elder to ask what he thought I should do. “This is very serious.” Was the message I left on his phone. He has, to this day, never contacted me back.

I scheduled another meeting with Erwin & Robert. By the time we met there were two false rumors that had been spread by Erwin about my wife and I. The second one concerned one of our children; that hit very close to home. Just the same, God gave me the grace to ask Erwin calmly and directly in the last meeting I had with he and Robert. Erwin denied both instances and contradicted what two of my most trusted and closest friends had told me he said. The only thing is, these twists of the truth could have only happened the way they did, by Erwin’s lips. And I have witnesses that can validate both situations.

Stunned by the blatant manipulation of the truth I tried to contact another Elder (you know who you are, I forgive you, but no longer trust you) and he too has never returned my call. Sadly, we left Mosaic, never to return.

Prior to all of this, my wife and I returned from Japan just as the Wolf “removal” was happening. I asked Thom Wolf to meet with me at a Starbucks. I knew that it was a very complex and difficult situation, but I figured I knew the Bro better than I did Erwin (which was the case). So, I challenged Thom to humble himself and ask forgiveness for any part in what happened. – I did this while trying to plug back into what we thought was still our home church – before I spoke with Erwin & Robert the first time. I could tell that Thom was hurt by my challenging him first, but I really felt, if anyone could turn the situation around it would be him.

Bro Thom told me first hand how the Mosaic leadership had mandated he could only meet with them alone; he was not allowed to bring anyone else with him. How he would not be allowed to speak. Only listen. (I confirmed that these stipulations were put upon Thom, by Mosaic, in my meetings with Erwin & Robert) Thom was very hurt, devastated. Now, ten years later, I see that I was wrong to expect him to be able to “fix” anything. Mosaic had stripped him of all dignity, any ability to try and make things right. 25 years of service and leadership were tossed aside.

In that first meeting with Erwin & Robert I asked them if they felt that the leadership had done anything wrong with the way it handled Thom. They both said, “Yes, if they could do it again they would do some things differently.” We talked about how Erwin felt uncomfortable that so many church members would come to him and say that Bro Thom advised differently. I agreed that if Erwin were the Senior Pastor then members should not be going to Bro Thom in that way. I asked if they had confronted Thom and/or the members that were doing it? They said they did not. And given the chance they would like to see Thom back in fellowship at Mosaic. And they would like to apologize publicly to him for that injustice, but Thom would not answer their letters. I suggested a way to do it, but they were not interested.

Some of you have painted a picture that the Wolfs are not that hurt or bothered by this. And Carol Davis has moved on, too. If that is the case, why have they never once been back to visit a place that they all served at and ministered to for over 75 cumulative years?

Mosaic,

If you deny your roots then you have none as a church. Please do not disrespect the many people that have invested the best years of their lives into your church. I do not believe any of us want to come back there; just the same we would like to believe that there is a shred of genuine gratitude for a legacy that you have inherited.

“A spiritual reference point East of downtown Los Angeles, and a sending base to the ends of the Earth.”

All of us would see the “ends of the Earth” to include, Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Chino and etc…

I for one am tired of hearing from Ryan. This is not dialog. I hope those supporting Mosaic of Pain will resume bringing out information, facts, scripture. Lets have more stories. Lets get the "return to orthodoxy" blog started. Why do we keep responding to this person's empty and ignorant posts. Ignorant because I for one know of someone who has tried to meet with Erwin. Let's Move on.Kimberly Aguilar

Oh. Kimberly, I was under the impression that you guys were trying to get something done about this, thus beginning a dialog. If this is a venting page, then please, vent away. I am bowing out. I think your intentions have been made quite clear.

If you actually want to create change, then let me know when you want to start a dialog.

Using a screen name or "anonymous" DOES NOT protect you from being identified. Each time a post is added to the comment board, the sender's IP address is visible to the webmaster of the receiving site. This is a STANDARD FEATURE of most interactive message boards/blogs. The webmaster of this site can see IP addresses.

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Several people have asked you about the Bro tom situation. You said he is your good buddy but you have not bothered to ask him his opinion. You were asked what you thought about how Erwin and the elders mis characterized Bro Tom and mis lead the entire congregation about the situation by leaving out the details about the conditions placed on Bro Tom to meet. You have never answered those questions and you have never indicated that you wanted to even know the truth by going to Bro Tom. You have mocked peoples pain here for too long. You have exchanged the truth for a lie by not endeavoring to to find it when it is within your grasp.

What other MOP members besides Eddie Marshall have attempted to make contact with Mosaic Core Staff in the last 7 days? Please elaborate.

Reason I ask is I am riding the fence as I'm sure some others from Mosaic are as well. I am in the midst of trying to make up my mind about this whole situation. If I don't see RECENT attempts to make contact with Mosaic leaders, than I will probably choose to put this all behind me and continue to serve at Mosaic.

MOP members, please keep in mind that there are many in the middle. Please continue to encourage dialog as I need to hear from both sides in order to make up my mind even if the Ryans and the MOLs ask annoying or circular reasoning questions. I don't think anyone is going to win the argument here. The conversations that occur outside of this blog will probably be the ones that make most progress.

Bibleman, I appreciate your question. I was on the fence for a long time also. What decided it for me was the fact that Brother Tom left the ball in their court, as he has said it. It is the responsibility of Erwin and the Elders to make that right. They misled the congregation. They don't need us to start a dialog about it. They need to publicly apologize to Brother Tom and reveal the details of their demands on Brother Tom. Once they openly discuss this and ask for forgiveness from Brother Tom and others, then the dialog can begin, at least with me.

I don't understand, didn't "ryan" see that Eddie stated, he has a mtg scheduled? Isn't that "being serious & contacting them"? If "mosaic" is telling "ryan" they haven’t, then someone is lying, right? Why didn't "ryan" acknowledge that? He/she (seriously the name can go both ways) continues to conveniently comment on the not so serious stuff. Venting, call it as you see it, you have every right. I understood this "blogger" to be where MOP stories would be told, to become public and honestly, (I) don't expect "mosaic" elders to address anything on here, honestly, its not the appropriate place.

Eddie...thanks for the words...your communication skills are great!

P.S. This brought a smile to my face, something I hadn't heard in a long long time....

“A spiritual reference point East of downtown Los Angeles, and a sending base to the ends of the Earth.”

What other MOP members besides Eddie Marshall have attempted to make contact with Mosaic Core Staff in the last 7 days? Please elaborate."

There are two others I know of. You can see who they are in the thread of comments here.

"Reason I ask is I am riding the fence as I'm sure some others from Mosaic are as well. I am in the midst of trying to make up my mind about this whole situation. If I don't see RECENT attempts to make contact with Mosaic leaders, than I will probably choose to put this all behind me and continue to serve at Mosaic."

Bibleman, please continue to serve and attend the church God has you in. However, asking questions about the issues raised here would be a good idea. Asking questiona of those that are referenced here. e.g. Mosaic leadership. Bibleman, you seem like a sensible guy. Be measured and logical with your questions and the answers you receive.

MOP members, please keep in mind that there are many in the middle. Please continue to encourage dialog as I need to hear from both sides in order to make up my mind even if the Ryans and the MOLs ask annoying or circular reasoning questions. I don't think anyone is going to win the argument here. The conversations that occur outside of this blog will probably be the ones that make most progress.

Correct, but the "conversations" would never have occurred without this blog, unfortunately.

Bibleman,I also thank you for your desire to listen and be open to this discussion. I have personally tried to connect with Erwin for about a month. He emailed me on Monday.The email was cordial, he did refer me back to Rick and Eric. One thing I did share with Erwin and I would share with any elder at Mosaic is that I believe that a meeting should take place. This meeting should be between those who have been hurt and the elders (including Erwin). This could be a time of healing and great growth for everyone involved. I publicly share this wish with all the elders. I understand that brothers and sisters like Matt, Ryan, Bibleman, Jimmy are people who would like to see a resolution, like the mop members. However, the ball is in the elders court. Give us a date and I know I'll attend--Chino, Pasadena, BH or Downtown. Jacob Aguilar

I too would attend an open air meeting. IF it was arbitrated by an unbiased and neutral group. I am not looking for "healing" God has done that very well, thank you. I want to be part of bringing what has happened into the "daylight" - like the mission statement says. Viva la Sine Cera!

A question was raised by Ex-Mosaic and MOPmember regarding the identity of another poster. (see Ex-Mosaic Member, Feb 27, 2007 and MOPmember, Feb. 27, 2007)

In essence these people were wondering if another posting was writing under two or more different names.

It seemed to me that this question was of some concern to other posters as well, both those in support of MOP and those against. I tried my best to address this concern by reminding the ENTIRE POSTING community of what is considered proper internet ettiquette and the simple fact that no one is truly "anonymous" on the internet.

The only people who need feel "threatened" by such a reminder are those engaging in criminal acts such as identity theft, solicitation, pornography, etc. That is clearly NOT the case here.

I am not the webmaster and have absolutely no access to any of the IP addresses of the people who have posted here.

As to the "grey" areas of improper internet behavior, those which are not subject to criminal prosecution but are merely rude, disruptive, inflammatory, et. al, as outlined in the link I provided in my earlier post, the worst "punishment" a webmaster can inflict on an offending party is to ban the person's IP address. All this means is that permission to post has been denied to that particular IP address.

Please re-read the information contained in the link.

As to this particular post:

----------------------"Anonymous said…

Yvonne,

What is your point about being identified? Sounds like a threat.

Bibleman"

---------------------

Why did you choose to use the identity "anonymous" but then sign your screen name "Bibleman" at the end? By doing so, you have provided a perfect example of the type of "posting under different names." I am not saying that you did so in order to cause confusion; just be aware that there are some people out there in cyberspace who would. I have been a member of several different message boards since 2000 (all completely unrelated to Mosaic, Erwin McManus or any other entity connected to them) and I have encountered several nasty "trolls" who wreaked havoc on these boards until the administrator stepped in to have them banned.

It would be great if they had an open forum meeting with arbitrators that were not biased and OPENED IT UP and announced it to ALL MEMBERS, PAST & PRESENT. I would bet there would be hundreds of past members there.

It would be great if Bro Thom & Linda were invited and Carol Davis.

Let's have some truth, repentence, healing and restoration....

Where you go with the patterns that were established from that first wrong, I'm not sure but it would be a great first step.

From the beginning we have said, “No private conversations.” Mosaic wants to keep this problem in the dark and continue on with “private conversations”.

I had an appointment to meet with Jimmy Duke on Thursday night at 7pm. For some reason Jimmy felt compelled to start that meeting early and push the issue of meeting to “discuss” things with elders.

The entire e-mail “conversation” is below. You decide if this group really wants to make things better, or just silence us?

(The following e-mail thread occurred on 02/28/07 – the night before our scheduled meeting.)

******************************************

Quoting Jimmy Duke:

Cris and Eddie,

I have spoken with Eric Bryant, one of the elders at Mosaic, and he would like for me to extend an invitation for you guys to meet with him and/or any of the other elders to discuss your concerns and to seek reconciliation. Upon hearing that both of you were willing to meet with me, the elders had hoped that maybe this would mean that you guys are willing to meet with them at some point.

Are you guys interested?

Jimmy Duke

******************************************

My reply:

Jimmy,

I am still good to meet tomorrow night at 7pm.

In answer to your question below, I will copy a post that I just put up on MOP.

Regards,

Eddie

“February 28, 2007 4:39 PMAnonymous said...

I too would attend an open air meeting. IF it was arbitrated by an unbiased and neutral group. I am not looking for "healing" God hasdone that very well, thank you. I want to be part of bringing what has happened into the "daylight" - like the mission statement says. Viva la Sine Cera!

Cordially,

Eddie Marshall”

******************************************

Quoting Jimmy Duke:

Eddie,

I'm confused. Why are we meeting if not to start the healing and reconciliation process?

JD

******************************************

My reply:

Jimmy,

I am not involved in this process of MOP to look for "healing" for myself. If others need that; great. If the group as a hole needs it;fine.

Remember I commented:

"Jimmy, I do not know you, but I can already tell I would like you. So, if you want to meet with us about addressing the deception andabuse of power that has occurred over the years at Mosaic, I am the first to say, “Which Starbucks?”

Eddie Marshall"

"Addressing" the deception and abuse of power means asking tough questions of how to bring justice to those that deceived and abused their power. That will most likely mean some resignations.

Eddie

******************************************

Quoting Jimmy Duke:

What does "bring justice" mean?

JD

******************************************

My reply:

Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders and lead pastor Erwin McManus,considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse ofGod’s word.

******************************************

Quoting Jimmy Duke:

So are you saying you don't think reconciliation is necessary?

******************************************

My reply:

Reconciliation is ALWAYS necessary, but you know as well as I do that genuine repentance MUST proceed it.

******************************************

Quoting Jimmy Duke:

Agreed...but true repentance comes from conviction and that only comes from the Holy Spirit.

The only one that can truly "bring justice" is God.

God is my judge. Right?

If our meeting is not for the purpose of moving toward reconciliation, what do you hope to accomplish tomorrow?

******************************************

Jimmy,

God is the Judge of all, correct. You can hide behind that one if you like. I just have one question. Why would you write the following?

"Here's my suggestion, if you want, a group of you could meet me in a public place. We could discuss any and every issue you wish. I am ready, willing and able to listen and act."

Have a nice life.

******************************************

Quoting Jimmy Duke:

Eddie,

Why do you feel I am hiding? There is no need to be so curt. I meant what I said. Why do you suddenly doubt it?

What do you see as the purpose of our meeting tomorrow? What are you hoping will take place?

******************************************

My reply:

What meeting?

******************************************

Quoting Jimmy Duke:

Is everything alright?

Have I done something wrong?

******************************************

My reply:

Jimmy,

This is what we would have talked about, therefore we are done.

Best,

Eddie

****************************************** END OF THREAD

So, in short, once the two of us clarified our positions there was no need to meet.

Mosaic Leadership, please understand this is not about "talking". Until there is a public meeting with a neutral arbitration board there is nothing to "talk" about.

That would be a great idea. I am confident that Bro. Tom and Linda would attend. They were torn down in public. They can be restored and apologized to in public. I know over the years that there have been elders who have shared that they wished they could have done it differently. Now's your chance. Don't miss this opportunity. MH

Does anybody remember the times when Brother Tom would ask the congregation to come kneel at the front of the church and pray together? Those were such open and honest times. I was so amazed to see mature men like Brother Tom, Robert, Enrique, Rick, and others on their knees along side us. I can still hear Brother Tom gently sobbing at times as he called us to holiness and repentance. What genuine moments those were. No rehearsal or production team needed, just honesty and brokenness. That is what I would like to see. Mature Christian men and women speaking openly to each other before the church family, confessing their sins and asking for forgiveness. It has been a long time since I have seen anything remotely like that and I would love to be a part of it.

Ex-Mosaic Member said... "It would be great if they had an open forum meeting with arbitrators that were not biased and OPENED IT UP and announced it to ALL MEMBERS, PAST & PRESENT. I would bet there would be hundreds of past members there"

I agree and will be there! I believe God wants us all to get this behind us and to move forward in a new unity that will be a blessing to others for generations.

I have spoken with Eric Bryant, one of the elders at Mosaic, and he would like for me to extend an invitation for you guys to meet with him and/or any of the other elders to discuss your concerns and to seek reconciliation. Upon hearing that both of you were willing to meet with me, the elders had hoped that maybe this would mean that you guys are willing to meet with them at some point.

This site is clearly not interested in reconciliation. From the name (Mosaic of Pain) to the unwillingness to accept anything short of Erwin’s resignation, there is a clear lack of desire to reconcile, only to attack. The willingness to post anything that paints Erwin in a bad light (regardless of validity/intent of source). If reconciliation is the goal, the disparaging remarks, bullying of any posters with different viewpoints, and posting of articles attacking one man’s understanding of Erwin’s books/teaching would not be a part of the site. The unwillingness to meet because Jimmy said “God brings justice” is another step backwards in credibility.

are we really aligning ourselves with apprising ministries and Ken Silva? That guy is really unbalanced. If we are going to explore Erwin's theological downfalls, I suggest we align ourselves with rational and balanced people.

Where do you find the word, "reconciliation" in the below mission statement?

The primary aim of Mosaic Of Pain is to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders and lead pastor Erwin McManus, considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse of God’s word.

Seeker of the Truth,Erwin doesn't really need any help in painting himself in a bad light. He does a pretty good job on his own. His sermons and books are out there for the world to hear and see. And bullying--Does bullying mean when someone from the Mop side brings up a clear and logical question or arguement and Mosaic representatives don't have a come back. If that's bullying then I plead guilty. Also, believe it or not there are plenty of people out of the Los Angeles area who can think for themselves and see through his fluffy books and speeches. NOt everyone is going to post on the Mosaic site and state how "Soul Cravings" "changed my life". Give the public more credit than that. MH

I was assuming the biblical value of reconciliation and I took Eddie at his word when he said "Reconciliation is ALWAYS necessary". I will not do that again.

I'm encouraged to know that there is discussion of who this group is aligning with, that is very wise.

As for the anonymous poster who discussed Soul Cravings, I don't like the book either. I can't read much without getting bored. But I don't need to like it. I do know people who loved the book and are considering following Jesus. I'm all for something that will encourage people in that process.

Anyway, it sounds like my input is not wanted here, so I will not be posting here again. God bless, and I truly hope that God continues to speak into your lives.

I think Ken Silva is just one of many who have insight into this whole discussion. I’m sure if you talk to people who have been apart of MOP you would find a slightly different perspective from each person. I think the point is that there is an on going theme of unhealthiness surrounding Erwins ministry.

Just wondering. I have read that Erwin planted and pastored churches among the urban poor in Texas, but I have never seen an article where the churches are named. Does anybody know? It would be interesting to see what became of these churches and what their opinion is of Erwin. One would think that if he planted a church somewhere he would check in to see how they are doing, but I have never heard him mention them as being healthy thriving churches.

Anonymous, stop it. Can you please rise above ad hominem attacks and respond to some of the man's statements. He might seem unbalanced in the sense that when it comes to the Emergent issue, he tips the scale the other way. In this, he is completely unbalanced.

"I do know people who loved the book and are considering following Jesus. I'm all for something that will encourage people in that process."

Seeker of Truth. The fact that you went away after not liking what you read is troubling enough. But do you truly stand by your comment above? Are you comfortable recommending to a new believer a book that promotes the self so blatantly as Soul Cravings? I wouldnt. And I also wouldnt let my child play with fire.

"so I will not be posting here again"

And that's really the point, isnt it? We havent really seen a serious, systematic defense of Mosaic regarding the claims of abuse of people and scripture. Instead, we are met with hollow phrases like who we are "aligning ourselves with" and you have "lost credibility." We used to be "bitter." Now we dont want reconciliation. And then poof! The poster leaves. Seeker of Truth, have you completely missed the point? Have you not read these blogs this past month? This is something very ugly. It is abusive. What kind of reconciliation are you talking about?

"another step backwards in credibility."

I am sorry we lost credibility in your eyes. Maybe this will bring some of that lost credibility back: we gain nothing from doing this. No money, no glory. Some of us are just sick of seing so many people, good people, crushed by this church. We dont want to see it happen again. Is that at all a credible notion in your eyes?

If you are going to leave half of the sentence off, you need to use “…” not insert a period as if the sentence was completed.

In quoting Eddie you wrote the following, “Reconciliation is ALWAYS necessary.” When what he wrote was actually, “Reconciliation is ALWAYS necessary, but you know as well as I do that genuine repentance MUST proceed it.”

Wrong and injustic has been done to people by Mosaic leaders. Why is it so difficult for them to apologize. Sometimes pride needs to be put aside and sometimes we have to do the difficult things that God asks us to do. Why hasn't Erwin and the elders learned this lesson? This is a no-brainer. Do right

"When faced with conflict, we tend to focus passionately on what our opponent has done wrong or should do to make things right. In contrast, God always calls us to focus on what is going on in our own hearts when we are at odds with others. Why? Because our heart is the wellspring of all our thoughts, words, and actions, and therefore the source of our conflicts. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander" (Matthew 15:19).

Let's make sure we are all asking God to examine our hearts through all of this. There is much at stake.

Well, since I am the individual that has emphasized the "Narcissism in the Pulpit" article, I will try and answer that question.

Anonymous asked:

“I'd never heard of the syndrome known as Narcissism in the Pulpit. I have heard a lot though about a different syndrome -- Narcissism in the Pew. Has anyone talked about that yet?”

Absolutely, we are all a bit narcissistic, if we had no “self-love” we would not exist. As a matter of fact it is a gift from God for us to be able to truly love ourselves. By nature I believe we are self-loathing creatures, but when God enters our lives He helps us discover how awesome His plan is for us and how wonderfully and majestically we are created, even though we are fallen and broken creatures.

So, in response to your question, we can all have struggles with excessive self-love, or narcissism. The difference between those in the pew and those in the pulpit concerning this issue is the pulpit has a position of power and the pastor there should be above reproach in this area.

The purpose for me posting the “Narcissism in the Pulpit” article is I believe it explains very well how a large group (hundreds if not a couple of thousand) can follow an imbalanced leader that has manipulated, deceived and injured many of God’s flock; as well as abused his position to do so.

For those who are not familiar with the article in question, here is the link to it:

Anonymous said... I guess we have another "volunteer" staff member in the house. Do we really have to define narcisissm for you? Please tell me we don't.

March 5, 2007 2:20 PM Anonymous said... Narcisissm in the Pew. That is very clever. Did you come up with that on your own? What a fine example of what happens in a creative community. Mosaic, don't let this one go, you got a bright one there.

This is a sad example of what blogging turns people into. Nobody feels as strong a responsibility for their words and they can be reduced to junior highers arguing on the playground. "You are...no I'm not, you are...I said it first, tap tap and no erasies."

It is also an example of the varying goals of the people who claim to part of the MOP crew. Robbie obviously had a certain honorable goal, a few other people had the goal of releasing some pain, others are trying to promote genuine discussion and still others like the above posters don't really know what their goals are and have become caught up in checking this blog 10 times a day to see if anyone thought of a good come back for those darn creative people over at Mosaic.

It seems like part of your goal is to stop people from getting hurt anymore by the businessmen disguised as pastors, but yet your favorite target of ridicule has become these same "volunteer staff." The people you are supposedly trying to help have become the people you have grown to love to make fun of. Shouldn't you be trying to check the blog 10 times a day to think if anyone has thought of a way to help these people, not burn them?

Those rediculously childish posts hurt a potentially honorable cause. This post is just a reminder to think about your true individual goals for being a part of this and constantly be reevaluating the best way to really accomplish them.

There are a lot of good churches out there. There are former members of MoP attending Lake Ave, Christian Assembly of Eagle Rock, Gateway-Alhambra and Whittier Area Community Church. There are others, but you will see familiar faces if you visit any of the four above. And more importantly they stick to the word. No show.

Thank you Cris. I commend most of the people who have posted on this site. There are some who have taken it in another direction. Let's not forget why this site has been established. Alot of important things are happening behind the scenes. Let's continue to pray for God to change hearts.

Cris,What can members at Mosaic do to help get the two sides to the table? Because there are people at Mosaic who would like this to be resolved."

This is a good question. The "Primary Aim" is pretty clear.

The primary aim of Mosaic Of Pain is to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders and lead pastor Erwin McManus, considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse of God’s word.

I have read all your comments and I can see that you have some very valid concern. I know many of you have been wronged. But lets not place erwin on a pedestal. he is one very flawed human being. but, aren't we all? from the numerous postings, i can tell that many of you are not seeking resolution or forgiveness but rather wrath or revenge. I say examine your own heart and find it within yourselves to forgive EVEN if he never apologizes to you directly. remember the grace God showed you when he forgave you of all your sins and trespasses against Him. at least you can show a ounce of grace toward someone you once called your brother. Believe me, it is nothing compared to the grace God has shown you.

I do not deny the fact that mosaic is full of flaws. i also cannot deny the fact that many many people have been blessed by the ministries at mosaic. mosaic has taught me that every once in a while, i need to take the focus off of "me" and that's good. i know that i can visit any church and dissect it and tell you what is theologically wrong with them. i would like someone to lead me to the "perfect" church with the perfect theology and perfect staff. but, until then, i will be at the willaim mott auditorium every sunday at 9:30 sharp!!!