Your body needs time to adapt to changes. Dont be hasty.Maybe your toes get numb because your right leg pedal stroke is toe down style.This happens when one leg is shorter so as not to lose contact in the lower part of the stroke.In your place i would lower my saddle bit by bit(millimeters),and i would use one (only one) varus wedge inside the shoe,in addition to cleat shims.An other thing is to move your cleats so as your heels come closer to the bottom bracket.It could help have a more stable and compact feel in pedalling.Maybe the visual part will not be perfect after what adjustments you do(the body follows its own rules).The important thing is to deal with pain and avoid it in the future.Slowly you will get used to pedalling assymetrically as many of us do

Pedals are Speedplay zero's and my feet naturally seem to want to point with the toes outward a bit.

I have tried multiple times lowered my saddle and all that seems to do is cause my left knee to start hurting below the knee indicting the height is too low.

As for stance I have the cleats set up to have my legs are inward as possible which does make the left one feel very secure/firm/mechanically solid however the right still has the previously mentioned issues.

The issue is that my body doesn't seem to be getting adjusted to it in that for the past few months of summer riding it always hurts

Sent Steve Hogg a Q&A about it so we will see what he says, honestly his opinion is one of the few I think might make a difference here.

I would suggest to go back to basics as not to cloud the issues... This is how I have approached it myself, so this is the process I would use...

The anatomical issue you have is 10mm of LLD... So as a starting point use 10mm of shims. If your FEET and 1st metatarsophalangeal joints are symmetrical in length then have your cleats in the same fore/aft position on BOTH shoes. If they are not then place the cleats with respect to where your MTP joint is on either foot. Ie 10mm behind your MTP for an average size male foot.

Set the cleat initially in the middle of the shoe so u can later experiment with stance width.

Once you have your shoes setup then set your saddle up. Forget moving the saddle in response to your right knee tracking. Set the saddle in the correct position in terms of height and fore/aft. There are several theories obviously on the correct position, but keep it basic for now. Have your saddle's fore/aft close to KOPS initially, then set your saddle height as a function of knee angle at the bottom of your pedal stroke. Once u have this position u can then move the fore/aft position similar to how Steve Hogg suggests, so that there is a balance between power generation, weight on hands and weight on saddle.

Once you have this generic position you have a good basis for slight adjustments. The first thing I would check is whether your hips are level and stable on the saddle, as viewed on a trainer from behind. Use a video camera and push a reasonsble hard gear on the trainer for 5 or 10minutes. If your right hip is still down then shim further. If you feel your right hip is higher then I would leave it in that position for a few weeks for your body to adjust. As I have mentioned earlier, make sure your hips are also square on the saddle. It is quite common for the hip on a short (insufficiently shimmed) leg to hang over the edge of the saddle on that side, and also for the hip to move FORWARD on the saddle to help compensate for the short leg. This is especially true if this is your dominant side (read right side bias from Steve Hogg). As soon as your right hip is forward of your left, the knee is going to head straight into the top tube during your pedal stroke, and only over-wedging with varus wedges will correct this error in position.

Once your happy with the shim height, u can play with wedging and insoles to correct tracking. If it is obvious from an early stage that u need wedging, then wedge your cleats with an arbitrary starting point and go from there ie 2 wedges either side.

Remember that u will need sometime on the bike to get used to the new positions. If you have been compensating for under shimming your short right leg, then u will find your left side trunk muscles will be shorter compared to your right, and these will take some time to lengthen and adjust...

Most importantly, keep an accurate diary of your changes, feedback, and don't change more than one thing at a time... Then u can go back a step or 2 accurately, if u have made adjustments in the wrong direction.

A question:If your right leg is 10mm short then I'm assuming u have orthotics to address this in your everyday shoes when walking?

If not then its probably unreasonable to expect your body to behave symmetrically on a bike with sufficient LLD correction, if 16hours a day it goes back to coping with an uncorrected LLD when you walk... Just an idea...

Thank you so much for that extremely detailed and well thought out post. I have been keeping a "bike journal" of sorts since last summer with my notes/ideas/thoughts which is what originally got me thinking about LLD and what got me to get a bike fit then to further pursue it with a few doctors.

I do wear orthotics in my normal every day walking shoes with the right one being approximately ~9mm or so higher to account for the leg length issue. This has helped my walking and general sense of body symmetry during normal activity, running is still a big issue but normal functioning is much better.

I have actually found a semi-reliable way to at least see/feel how my legs are functioning in proportion to each other by riding the trainer one legged. I basically have 1 leg hang while just the other pedals. It allows me to feel how the leg is really functioning. Basically at my current saddle height I can feel my left leg can pedal and is in control through the entire pedal stroke when I use it alone. The right one on the other hand I can tell looses control and can't really reach once I hit the lower portion of the pedal stroke. Just to test going from ~6mm to ~9mm of shimming did help the sense of control however it's still not where it should be.

I know the little test I was doing is primitive at best but it at least gives me a decent idea/starting point and a way to isolate one leg to check it's functioning to a degree.

I don't have one of those leg length plates although I wish I did. The price on that is incredibly high for a 22 year old college kid, with shipping to the USA it's almost $80 which is a significant amount of money, think groceries for a full month*....

Anyhow, I have rigged together a shim stack set up of my own that seems to be helping, I will outline what I did and where I'm at later today when I get a chance to really sit down and write, it seems like the knee diving in was a result of the leg still dropping due to not enough shim height

*yes I do actually live on ~$80 a month for food, smart shopping and cook everything myself

Thanks for the offer, I might take you up on it depending how talking to Steve goes and what the price ends up coming to. I'm going to ask Steve a bit about that part and some other options in the next few days once I get a chance to type some stuff up and see where that leads.

Also, I'm highly curious about a comment for that part saying something similar is in the works for 3 bolt systems like Shimano/Look Pedals. I'm riding Speedplay Zero's and I like the adjustments part of them however I do personally prefer Shimano pedals so if I'm able to do what I currently am regarding shim height I would prefer that system. This is of course assuming I can still set up the same position front to back etc....

I really love the Shimano durability of cleats, how you can walk in them relatively fine and that they are basically a set it and forget it type of part

Thanks for the offer, I might take you up on it depending how talking to Steve goes and what the price ends up coming to. I'm going to ask Steve a bit about that part and some other options in the next few days once I get a chance to type some stuff up and see where that leads.

Also, I'm highly curious about a comment for that part saying something similar is in the works for 3 bolt systems like Shimano/Look Pedals. I'm riding Speedplay Zero's and I like the adjustments part of them however I do personally prefer Shimano pedals so if I'm able to do what I currently am regarding shim height I would prefer that system. This is of course assuming I can still set up the same position front to back etc....

I really love the Shimano durability of cleats, how you can walk in them relatively fine and that they are basically a set it and forget it type of part

Speedplays do have their drawbacks but I must admit, I'll never return to my Looks. For difficult fits u can't go past the adjustability of SPs and their accessories. Let us all know what Steve thinks...

I have actually found a semi-reliable way to at least see/feel how my legs are functioning in proportion to each other by riding the trainer one legged. I basically have 1 leg hang while just the other pedals. It allows me to feel how the leg is really functioning. Basically at my current saddle height I can feel my left leg can pedal and is in control through the entire pedal stroke when I use it alone. The right one on the other hand I can tell looses control and can't really reach once I hit the lower portion of the pedal stroke. Just to test going from ~6mm to ~9mm of shimming did help the sense of control however it's still not where it should be.

Do you know which is your dominant leg?

I have a LLD where my left leg is shorter, and RL is dominant. At one point, I had the saddle too high which made me drop my right hip to placate the right (dominant) leg. This just exasperated the left leg being shorter, and gave me big ITB problems.

_________________Snacking on carrot sticks - Where did it all go so wrong?-Finsbury Park CC

I have actually found a semi-reliable way to at least see/feel how my legs are functioning in proportion to each other by riding the trainer one legged. I basically have 1 leg hang while just the other pedals. It allows me to feel how the leg is really functioning. Basically at my current saddle height I can feel my left leg can pedal and is in control through the entire pedal stroke when I use it alone. The right one on the other hand I can tell looses control and can't really reach once I hit the lower portion of the pedal stroke. Just to test going from ~6mm to ~9mm of shimming did help the sense of control however it's still not where it should be.

Do you know which is your dominant leg?

I have a LLD where my left leg is shorter, and RL is dominant. At one point, I had the saddle too high which made me drop my right hip to placate the right (dominant) leg. This just exasperated the left leg being shorter, and gave me big ITB problems.

I'm pretty sure the left leg is dominant HOWEVER, I also have a pretty good idea that the saddle shouldn't be any lower. The height I have it at right now is as low to within ~1-2mm as I can go before I start getting noticeable pain and cramping under my knee, a really good sign your saddle is too low. When I raise my saddle back up a few mm that pain disappears so I'm 99% sure the saddle isn't too high at least for my "normal" length leg

Knee pain in the front of the knee can come from q-factor, seat being too forward, too high, too low, too far back, etc. and there is no way to really know.

I had terrible knee pain early this season in the front of my knee and was convinced my seat was too far forward. I saw 3 orthos who diagnosed it as inflamed plica and then had a fit with one of Hogg's guys, who moved my seat 18mm lower and 13mm more forward. Pain disappeared within a week. Having my seat too far back meant that my leverage angles were terrible on climbs and I had to use a lot of pedal force. The seat being too high caused an unstable pelvis, which shot down my legs and destabilized my knees. The plica then rubbed on the joint on every pedal stroke and became completely inflamed. The fitter also removed my LLD shim since it was on the wrong foot and my hip dropping was from a muscular imbalance.

I can almost guarantee your seat is still too high. Moving it forward just shortened your effective seat height, which is why it feels better. Too high can cause knee pain. If I were you I'd set the seat in the exact middle of the rails at a height about 30mm lower than it is now and use Hogg's height guide going 3-6mm at a time. Remove the shims as well or go down to just 3mm on the leg. If you start to notice knee acceleration in just that knee with a 3mm raise, try another shim and see if its equalized. Always film the hips from the back and both sides as well. Plenty of videos to figure this out for free. Once you have absolutely zero knee acceleration and a good feeling on the pedals through the entire stroke then start the fore aft test, but make sure to raise/lower the seat on an arc measuring height to the same point on the saddle from the bb. Rarely are shims that big needed and rarely do people have a verified X-rayed LLD of that length. It sounds like you simply don't know what you're doing and are using google searches to give you incomplete explanations.

Also, SolidSnake03- does this imply that you're supposedly broke yet own a 2003 Cobra? I hope not b/c that'd be a bit ironic.

Knee pain in the front of the knee can come from q-factor, seat being too forward, too high, too low, too far back, etc. and there is no way to really know.

I had terrible knee pain early this season in the front of my knee and was convinced my seat was too far forward. I saw 3 orthos who diagnosed it as inflamed plica and then had a fit with one of Hogg's guys, who moved my seat 18mm lower and 13mm more forward. Pain disappeared within a week. Having my seat too far back meant that my leverage angles were terrible on climbs and I had to use a lot of pedal force. The seat being too high caused an unstable pelvis, which shot down my legs and destabilized my knees. The plica then rubbed on the joint on every pedal stroke and became completely inflamed. The fitter also removed my LLD shim since it was on the wrong foot and my hip dropping was from a muscular imbalance.

I can almost guarantee your seat is still too high. Moving it forward just shortened your effective seat height, which is why it feels better. Too high can cause knee pain. If I were you I'd set the seat in the exact middle of the rails at a height about 30mm lower than it is now and use Hogg's height guide going 3-6mm at a time. Remove the shims as well or go down to just 3mm on the leg. If you start to notice knee acceleration in just that knee with a 3mm raise, try another shim and see if its equalized. Always film the hips from the back and both sides as well. Plenty of videos to figure this out for free. Once you have absolutely zero knee acceleration and a good feeling on the pedals through the entire stroke then start the fore aft test, but make sure to raise/lower the seat on an arc measuring height to the same point on the saddle from the bb. Rarely are shims that big needed and rarely do people have a verified X-rayed LLD of that length. It sounds like you simply don't know what you're doing and are using google searches to give you incomplete explanations.

Also, SolidSnake03- does this imply that you're supposedly broke yet own a 2003 Cobra? I hope not b/c that'd be a bit ironic.

Own a 2003 cobra? What are you talking about? I'm a 22 year old college undergrade with no car living in a tiny 1 room place sleeping across from my bike because there isn't more room. The 90proof friend is in reference to Jim Beam Devils Cut which is a 90proof Bourbon that I enjoy quite a bit.

Now to pick apart your mildly righteous and "I know better than you" post in a step wise manner if you do so mind:

-Bike Fit's, I have had 2 bike fits so far both of which were at the "Top Guys in my area" which would be Madison WI if you care to know. In both cases this was a full bike fit and cost all of the extra money I had for that summer being why I have had 2 in 2 years. In each case I still had saddle pain, back pain and leg dropping issues and after multiple return trips was in not so many words told "sorry we don't know what is hurting you so much"

-When I moved my saddle forward I ALSO raised it up to compensate for this resulting in roughly the same leg feelings. I have determined my current saddle height BASED EXACTLY ON WHAT YOU SAID! I based it on how controlled/stable my legs felt throughout the pedal stroke while climbing the largest constant grade hill I could find. I used Hogg's method to determine my height and it came out to be about ~.5cm lower than both fits had set it at.

-I have repeated tested both on a trainer and outside actually riding with and without shims and without shims the pain is extensive. All of the issues I have mentioned before come only WITHOUT the shims. Once I add a large stack to my right shoe my body finally feels even, my hips stabilize and my knee stops caving in. I added the shims ~3mm at a time until I reached my final height which is where my body seems to be happy

-Also going back briefly to the saddle height issue, I have experimented with a saddle height UP TO ~2cm lowered than it currently is and this only increased the pain below my knee's as well as de-stabilizing my body and generally making me feel very "cramped up" so to speak. To put it quite simply, at a level that low my leg and knee were barely extending and I was weaker on a bike than I have ever been.

-In reference to your LLD comment, I have had this x-ray'd and confirmed by a orthopedic doctor in my area that has seen many of the top University Athletes and whose own son is a nationally ranked triathlete. This man knows his sports in other words and the LLD difference is what he found via X-ray. If you like I can provide all of his contact information as well as the actual x-rays showing the measurable difference. I would have to contact his office first to get the photo's however he already hold me they are available if any bike fitter needs them as he has been extremely understanding about this whole thing. I went to him following the second failed fit because all my signs like right hip feeling like it's falling of the saddle, left side saddle sores, right knee falling in etc.... pointed to leg length shim's being needed to me.

-Returning to the LLD comment as well, if you actually read more of my previous posts you would see that I walk and run in custom orthodics with a 1cm heel lift for my right leg and this has SIGNIFICANTLY improved my day to day life. It has essentially cured my tight right side, hip pain, leg inflexion when walking and improved my sense of balance. Also, as a point I forgot to mention earlier the LLD is significant enough that you can actually see it physically if you place a ruler or straight edge across my legs. It's very[b][/b] noticeable if you use the knee, foot and hip joints as measuring points. In addition the exact same amount, ~1cm shorter right leg was originally detected by the University Health Services Sports Medicine Physician I went to see who then referred me to the orthopedic doc I mentioned prior.

-As a final point, I am a senior molecular microbiologist that has been keeping a "lab notebook" of sorts of all my cycling activities and changes for the past 2 years. I have dated notes, diagrams and measurements from almost every change I have ever made and can provide photo's upon photo's of this if you would like. To put it quite frankly, I'm not just googling and guessing, I'm going about this in the most scientific and controlled way I possibly can based on my current financial limitations. I'm more than just a bit offended by your original assumptions and as such have taken a tone that indicates this if you couldn't detect it in my writing.

Now after reading all this and hopefully understanding it do you want to still claim that I am "It sounds like you simply don't know what you're doing and are using google searches to give you incomplete explanations."?

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