James the Giant wrote:Ten years after I borrowed the money, I have finally paid off my student loan and credit cards. Woohoo!It's an excellent feeling, being free of that damned obligation, that albatross.And now I am free to ordain, wonderful!

Now I have a choice:EITHER:Immediately go to Bodhivana Monastery near Melbourne and become an anagarika there, or perhaps here in Perth at Bodhinyana.

OR:Save for six more months, and then go visit Thailand, stay at Wat Pa Nanachat for a few months, and visit Sri Lanka, to get a taste of life in a Buddhist country.Then find a good monastery, probably back here in Australia. (or Wat Pa Nanachat if I like that.)

I am inclined towards the first option, saving 6 months more and visiting Thailand. But I guess I will visit or live there for some time anyway, as a bhikkhu.

I have 4 or 5 thousand dollars now, which would be more than enough to get me through an anagarika year in Australia, in case I needed to see a doctor or dentist or visit home just before I became a novice.

Hmm choices, choices.Your thoughts?

----------------------------Dear James The Giant...I post this MILINDA-PANHA just for you..because of your decision to go forth.********Dear Members,After I posted "The Debate : Going Forth" @ Sariputtadhamma/JTN.

a member asked me a question about "householders and monks". I couldn't answer so I searched the Milindapanha in details and I found this wonderful Thera Nagasena's answer...so amazing I wish To share with you all.

**************

The Debate : Lay People and Monks[www.as.miami.edu/phi/bio/Buddha/Milinda.htm - Cached]

King Milinda said: "Venerable Nagasena, the Lord has said: ‘Right spiritual progress is praiseworthy for householders and homeless wanderers alike. Both householders and homeless wanderers, when progressing rightly, can accomplish, because of their right progress, the right method, the Dharma, that which is wholesome.’ If, Nagasena, a householder, dressed in white, enjoying the pleasures of the senses, inhabiting a house overcrowded with wife and family, using the sandalwood of Benares, as well as garlands, perfumes and unguents, owning gold and silver, wearing a turban ornamented with gold and jewels, can, if he progresses rightly, accomplish the right method, the Dharma, the wholesome; and if a homeless wanderer, bald-headed, clad in the saffron robe, dependent on begging for his livelihood, careful to fulfil correctly the four Sections of monastic morality, submitting to the 150 Pratimoksa rules, and observing all the thirteen Austere Practices, without omitting any one, can also, if he progresses rightly, accomplish the right method, the Dharma, the wholesome; then, Venerable Sir, what is the difference between the householder and the homeless wanderer? Fruitless is your austerity, useless is the homeless life, barren is the observation of the Pratimoksa rules, in vain do you observe the austere practices! What is the use of your inflicting pain upon yourself if you can thus while remaining at ease win the ease of Nirvana?"

Nagasena replied: "You have quoted the Lord's words correctly, your majesty. To make right progress is indeed the most excellent thing of all. And if the homeless- wanderer, in the consciousness of being a homeless wanderer, should fail to progress rightly, then he would be far from the state of an ascetic, far from a holy life; and still more so would that apply to a householder dressed in white. But both the householder and the homeless wanderer are alike in that, when they progress rightly, they accomplish the right method, the Dharma, the wholesome. And nevertheless, your majesty, it is the homeless wanderer who is the lord and master of the ascetic life, and to be a homeless wanderer has many, has numerous, has infinite virtues. To measure the virtues of being a homeless wanderer is not at all possible. It is as with a jewel that fulfils all one's wishes; one cannot measure its value in terms of money, and say that it is worth so much. Or it is as with the waves in the great ocean, which one cannot measure and say that there are so many. All that the homeless wanderer still has to do, he succeeds in doing rapidly and without taking a long time over it. And why is that so? Because the homeless wanderer, your majesty, is content with little, easily pleased, secluded from the world, not addicted to society, energetic, independent, solitary, perfect in his conduct, austere in his practice, skilled in all that concerns purification and spiritual progress. He is like your javelin, your majesty. Because that is smooth, even, well polished, straight and shining dean, therefore, when well thrown, it will fly exactly as you want it to. In the same way, whatever the homeless wanderer still has to do, he succeeds in doing it all rapidly and without taking a long time over it"

"Well spoken, Nagasena. So it is, and so I accept it."

And Nagasena continued: "But, in any case, your majesty, all those who as householders, living in a home and in the enjoyment of sensuous pleasures, realize the peace of Nirvana, the highest good, they have all been trained in their former lives in the thirteen Austere Practices peculiar to monks, and through them they have laid the foundations for their present sanctity. It is because then they had purified their conduct and behavior by means of them, that now even as householders, living in a home and in the enjoyment of sense-pleasures, they can realize the peace of Nirvana, the highest good."

"But whosoever enters the Order of monks from bad motives, from covetousness, deceitfully, out of greed and gluttony, desirous of gain, fame, or reputation, unsuitably, unqualified, unfit, unworthy, unseemingly—he shall incur a twofold punishment, which will prove ruinous to all his good qualities: in this very life he shall be scorned, derided, reproached, ridiculed and mocked; he shall be shunned, expelled, ejected, removed, and banished. And in his next life, like foam which is tossed about, up and down and across, he shall cook for many hundreds of thousands of eons of years in the great Avici hell, which is a hundred leagues big, and all ablaze with hot, scorching, fierce, and fiery flames. And when he has been released thence, his entire body will become emaciated, rough, and black, his head swollen, bloated and full of holes; hungry and thirsty, disagreeable and dreadful to look at, his ears all torn, his eyes constantly blinking, his whole body one putrid mass of sores and dense with maggots, his bowels all afire and blazing like a mass of fire fanned by a breeze, helpless and unprotected, weeping, crying, wailing, and lamenting, consumed by unsatisfied longings, he that once was a religious wanderer shall then, now a large hungry ghost, roam about on the earth bewailing his fate."

"But if, on the other hand, a monk enters the Order suitably, qualified, fit, worthy and seemingly, content with little, easily pleased, secluded from the world, not addicted to society, energetic and resolute, without fraudulence and deceit, not gluttonous, not desirous of gain, fame, or reputation, devout and from faith, from a desire to free himself from old age and death and to uphold the Buddha's religion, then he deserves to be honored in two ways by both gods and men. He is dear and pleasing to them, they love him and seek after him. He is to them as fine jasmine flowers are to a man bathed and anointed, or good food to the hungry, or a cool, clear, and fragrant drink to the thirsty, or an effective medicine to those who are poisoned, or a superb chariot drawn by thoroughbreds to those who want to travel fast, or a wishing jewel to those who want to enrich themselves, or a brilliantly white parasol, the emblem of royalty, to those who like to be kings, or as the supreme attainment of the fruit of Arhatship to those who wish for Dharma. In him the four applications of mindfulness reach their full development, the four right exhorts, the four roads to psychic power, the five cardinal virtues, the five powers, the seven limbs of enlightenment, and the holy eightfold path; he attains to calm and insight, his progressive attainments continue to mature, and he becomes a repository of the four fruits of the religious life, of the four analytical knowledges, the three kinds of knowledge, and the six superknowledges, in short, of the whole Dharma of the religious life, and he is consecrated with the brilliantly white parasol of emancipation."

*************

And yes, the member, who asked question, was very happy with Thera Nagasena's answer!!yawares

Now, I was in the same position last year - finished my contract, still had a student loan (that's a whole other point of debate) and was going to take the trip/travel/pilgrimage before ordaining.

Went to WPN and a few other monasteries in Thailand, spent plenty of time with monks, bent lots of monastic ears and got some great advice for ordination. Speaking of which, nearly all of them said not to use such a trip to go 'monastery shopping' - you'll never find the perfect place.

Then I went to Burma. Thanks to long-standing family connections and my inability to say no to the chance to meet new people, I'm now living and working here because the nature of the country in this period of huge transition and watching international reactions and actions has utterly gripped my curiosity and interest. Every day here is an exercise in awareness, patience, understanding, empathy and development of my sila and metta, which is very hard to do sometimes. It's also the opportunity to witness and experience types of dukkha in myself and others that I never knew possible (the dukkha arising from no electricity when the temperature is 39c, water that runs brown and showers that leave you dirtier than when you stepped into them, combined with a stomach bug from eating badly prepared food and uncertainty as to whether immigration might one day find a 'problem' in your paperwork - makes first world dukkha look desirable by comparison but still doesn't compare with the myriad dukkha of even greater intensity endured by locals on a regular basis, such as having enough money to eat at all etc.).

I sure as hell wouldn't ordain here (Western Sangha for me), but I'm currently content as a lay person here and the experiences, challenges and opportunities for development of my mind and practice that life here brings. As and when that changes, I shall resume my path towards monasticism. Ironically, I can't do meditation retreats here on my current visa.

Has this diminished my desire to ordain? Kind of - it has certainly taken the self-imposed pressure and intensity off that would have likely caused me problems had I decided to skip the trip and ordain because I felt there was no other way to spend my life in a way that was conducive to meaningful practice, within the exceptionally narrow sphere that was my 'life'. You can bet that, as and when I do decide to ordain, I won't be as insufferable! I've let myself relax.

So definitely take the trip, and also remember that, as your life circumstances change and your experience and access to parts of the world you could only ever imagine starts to take shape, you may find your desire to ordain will be tempered with your interaction with the world and others around you in a way that remains skillful, beneficial and not self-indulgent. You will have different challenges and learn different lessons compared to life in a monastery as an anagarika/bhikku, of which you will form your own view as to the utility of these lessons in the overall 'big picture'.

Therefore, my advice would be that you take the trip with the full intention of ordaining, but don't try and live or act like a monk whilst you're travelling. Whilst that doesn't mean indulging in hedonistic sprees such that certain demographics of traveller are notorious for in this part of the world (I didn't and had no desire to and still had a wonderful time), do allow yourself permission to take advantage of opportunities to meet new people, deviate from your itinerary, travel to places you hadn't planned to go to and do things that don't center around Buddhism, monasteries or the Sangha. Personally I had a nice blend and had a wonderful time, I have a great distance friendship with the Luang Por in the UK who was (may still well be) going to be my Preceptor and have Sangha friends locally who love meeting up with me and discussing dhamma as well as practicing their English, as well as a busy and fulfilling lay life. I'm pretty content right now.

Finally if, like me, you do end up on 'extended travel' don't see that as an abandonment of monastic aspirations and - with it - all that you stood for and held dear. Instead, see all this as part of the (sometimes winding) path.

householder wrote:Congratulations to both posters on clearing the debts!

Now, I was in the same position last year - finished my contract, still had a student loan (that's a whole other point of debate) and was going to take the trip/travel/pilgrimage before ordaining.

Went to WPN and a few other monasteries in Thailand, spent plenty of time with monks, bent lots of monastic ears and got some great advice for ordination. Speaking of which, nearly all of them said not to use such a trip to go 'monastery shopping' - you'll never find the perfect place.

Then I went to Burma. Thanks to long-standing family connections and my inability to say no to the chance to meet new people, I'm now living and working here because the nature of the country in this period of huge transition and watching international reactions and actions has utterly gripped my curiosity and interest. Every day here is an exercise in awareness, patience, understanding, empathy and development of my sila and metta, which is very hard to do sometimes. It's also the opportunity to witness and experience types of dukkha in myself and others that I never knew possible (the dukkha arising from no electricity when the temperature is 39c, water that runs brown and showers that leave you dirtier than when you stepped into them, combined with a stomach bug from eating badly prepared food and uncertainty as to whether immigration might one day find a 'problem' in your paperwork - makes first world dukkha look desirable by comparison but still doesn't compare with the myriad dukkha of even greater intensity endured by locals on a regular basis, such as having enough money to eat at all etc.).

I sure as hell wouldn't ordain here (Western Sangha for me), but I'm currently content as a lay person here and the experiences, challenges and opportunities for development of my mind and practice that life here brings. As and when that changes, I shall resume my path towards monasticism. Ironically, I can't do meditation retreats here on my current visa.

Has this diminished my desire to ordain? Kind of - it has certainly taken the self-imposed pressure and intensity off that would have likely caused me problems had I decided to skip the trip and ordain because I felt there was no other way to spend my life in a way that was conducive to meaningful practice, within the exceptionally narrow sphere that was my 'life'. You can bet that, as and when I do decide to ordain, I won't be as insufferable! I've let myself relax.

So definitely take the trip, and also remember that, as your life circumstances change and your experience and access to parts of the world you could only ever imagine starts to take shape, you may find your desire to ordain will be tempered with your interaction with the world and others around you in a way that remains skillful, beneficial and not self-indulgent. You will have different challenges and learn different lessons compared to life in a monastery as an anagarika/bhikku, of which you will form your own view as to the utility of these lessons in the overall 'big picture'.

Therefore, my advice would be that you take the trip with the full intention of ordaining, but don't try and live or act like a monk whilst you're travelling. Whilst that doesn't mean indulging in hedonistic sprees such that certain demographics of traveller are notorious for in this part of the world (I didn't and had no desire to and still had a wonderful time), do allow yourself permission to take advantage of opportunities to meet new people, deviate from your itinerary, travel to places you hadn't planned to go to and do things that don't center around Buddhism, monasteries or the Sangha. Personally I had a nice blend and had a wonderful time, I have a great distance friendship with the Luang Por in the UK who was (may still well be) going to be my Preceptor and have Sangha friends locally who love meeting up with me and discussing dhamma as well as practicing their English, as well as a busy and fulfilling lay life. I'm pretty content right now.

Finally if, like me, you do end up on 'extended travel' don't see that as an abandonment of monastic aspirations and - with it - all that you stood for and held dear. Instead, see all this as part of the (sometimes winding) path.

James the Giant wrote:Ten years after I borrowed the money, I have finally paid off my student loan and credit cards. Woohoo!It's an excellent feeling, being free of that

Congratulations. I continued living like a student for 2 years after I finished my last degree to pay it off. Writing that final check and calling the loan agency to ask for account balance felt so nice .

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

James, and reflection, I'm happy for you both. Go forth, and make Mara afraid.

For myself, I will just try to remain as 'dust free' as possible, while walking the relatively dusty path of the householder. But I hope to be able to put rice into your bowls someday, it would give me joy.

Q: All this talk about ordaining has me thinking about my own debts also. I have a question. In Australia, we are not required to pay back our 'student loan debt' until we earn over a certain amount of income a year, I think it is around 40 000 a year. The problem is that, I don't earn that much, and if things continue as they have for years, I might never earn that much. (I'm qualified in music only, which isn't exactly conducive to wealth.) So I wonder, one could argue that since they don't expect any repayments unless I earn above a certain amount, then not earning that amount, am I regarded as indebted, or not? (in a way that would prevent me from ordaining in a few years, when my children have grown up)?

manas wrote:Q: All this talk about ordaining has me thinking about my own debts also. I have a question. In Australia, we are not required to pay back our 'student loan debt' until we earn over a certain amount of income a year, I think it is around 40 000 a year. The problem is that, I don't earn that much, and if things continue as they have for years, I might never earn that much. (I'm qualified in music only, which isn't exactly conducive to wealth.) So I wonder, one could argue that since they don't expect any repayments unless I earn above a certain amount, then not earning that amount, am I regarded as indebted, or not? (in a way that would prevent me from ordaining in a few years, when my children have grown up)?

I can't imagine that would count as debt, unless of course you plan on making more than $40,000 a year as a monk

Gain and loss, status and disgrace, censure and praise, pleasure and pain:these conditions among human beings are inconstant,impermanent, subject to change.

manas wrote:Q: All this talk about ordaining has me thinking about my own debts also. I have a question. In Australia, we are not required to pay back our 'student loan debt' until we earn over a certain amount of income a year, I think it is around 40 000 a year. The problem is that, I don't earn that much, and if things continue as they have for years, I might never earn that much. (I'm qualified in music only, which isn't exactly conducive to wealth.) So I wonder, one could argue that since they don't expect any repayments unless I earn above a certain amount, then not earning that amount, am I regarded as indebted, or not? (in a way that would prevent me from ordaining in a few years, when my children have grown up)?

I can't imagine that would count as debt, unless of course you plan on making more than $40,000 a year as a monk

Furthermore, even if I suddenly had the money in a lump sum, it would benefit far more beings in a real way, to give the money to an orphanage, or to Oxfam, or maybe to the monastery itself (to build a few huts), rather than to our federal Government who tend to look after big corporations and the rich most of all (via tax breaks, 'upper class welfare', legal tax loopholes, etc) in preference to the poor in our community. The financial system as a whole, seems to be designed by the super-rich, for the ultimate benefit of the super-rich. As Pink Floyd sang years ago:

Money, get away Get a good job with more pay And your O.K.

Money, it's a gas Grab that cash with both hands And make a stash

New car, caviar, four star daydream Think I'll buy me a football team

Money get back I'm all right Jack Keep your hands off my stack

Money, it's a hit Don't give me that Do goody good bullshit

I'm in the hi-fidelity First class traveling set And I think I need a Lear jet

manas wrote:Furthermore, even if I suddenly had the money in a lump sum, it would benefit far more beings in a real way, to give the money to an orphanage, or to Oxfam, or maybe to the monastery itself (to build a few huts), rather than to our federal Government who tend to look after big corporations and the rich most of all (via tax breaks, 'upper class welfare', legal tax loopholes, etc) in preference to the poor in our community. The financial system as a whole, seems to be designed by the super-rich, for the ultimate benefit of the super-rich.

Trust me, you don't get to complain until you've lived in America

Gain and loss, status and disgrace, censure and praise, pleasure and pain:these conditions among human beings are inconstant,impermanent, subject to change.

Śūnyatā wrote:Pardon the uneducated question here: Why must one pay off one's debts before choosing to ordain?

It is a requirement of the Vinaya (monastic discipline).

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

I have a Catholic Monk friend, and he said the church pays off all the debts of a new monk.That's how wealthy the Catholic church is! Mind you, not many people become monks these days in the Catholic order.

Then, saturated with joy, you will put an end to suffering and stress.SN 9.11

James the Giant wrote:I have a Catholic Monk friend, and he said the church pays off all the debts of a new monk.That's how wealthy the Catholic church is! Mind you, not many people become monks these days in the Catholic order.

I can see a potential problem with that system. What if a new monk gets all his debts paid, then changes his mind and leaves the monastery, never to be seen or heard from again? I'm no admirer of the Catholic Church, but I can imagine that sort of thing might have happened before. But I guess they can afford that risk, yes?

I have a Catholic Monk friend, and he said the church pays off all the debts of a new monk.That's how wealthy the Catholic church is! Mind you, not many people become monks these days in the Catholic order.

Before popping the champagne bottle on this, your friend should have told you that this is not a norm and although it does occur but not with all religious parishes as it depends on various factors like various levels of approvals & conditions and many would insist that one is debt free prior to undertaking the religious life. This is such a sample and this is what a common religious parish would face in real life...imagine if they had to pay off individual debts on top of the dire state of accounts...

Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing, it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction. What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One. If this single thing is recollected and made much, it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: PañhamavaggaVSMVMMWBBTBHTWTBTMy Page