tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post5520767707723172961..comments2016-12-07T13:10:55.991-05:00Comments on edward_ winkleman: Tuesday's Aside : Impact of the Day JobEdward_http://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-62202869953228838592008-07-18T10:00:00.000-04:002008-07-18T10:00:00.000-04:00Weeks too late for this. But.I have three studioma...Weeks too late for this. But.<BR/><BR/>I have three studiomates: two of them work (full-time) for Chelsea galleries, and the third works (full-time) for a well-known arts organization and all three of them have told me art-world related anecdotes that make my stomach churn.<BR/><BR/>I&#39;m glad I&#39;m not part of it. I work full-time as a graphic designer. I&#39;m totally indifferent to the work and the company but I leave the job at the desk when I get up at 5 pm. I wish I didn&#39;t have to do it...but it pays for the studio, you know? What can I do. I like to maintain a certain level of bourgeois material comfort.<BR/><BR/>I&#39;ve yet to see anyone admit that an artist sometimes has down periods when the studio time might not be needed full time. I--in fact, most of the artists I know--tend to work in cycles. I can be in the studio 40+ hours a week when the ideas are hot. But there are times--after a show goes out the door for instance--when I just sit, relax, drink beer, read, eat, date, sleep, and generally refill the tanks for a few months. I know I&#39;m going back in. I&#39;m just not in a rush to do so. I don&#39;t think that make me (or any other artist) less dedicated. It just makes me/them a little more human and easier to be around.<BR/><BR/>There is something so frantic and alpha-male about this idea that one must be in the studio ALL DAY EVERY DAY. If you&#39;re not making yourself miserable to make art--and thumping your chest about it--you&#39;re somehow not dedicated to it...huh? That&#39;s a nice piece of propaganda but wouldn&#39;t you like to enjoy your life, too?<BR/><BR/>You have my permission to take the afternoon off. Now, get out there and have G&amp;T and a quesadilla.beebehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17294239926173539813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-5861128990956520102008-06-25T04:37:00.000-04:002008-06-25T04:37:00.000-04:00uhmmm... I know a lot more "serious" male-artists...uhmmm... I know a lot more "serious" male-artists who are supported by their non-artist wives, then vice-versa...Stefano Pasquinihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14703946870875359348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-87590201992892073062008-06-16T22:14:00.000-04:002008-06-16T22:14:00.000-04:00How about all of the "serious" female artists who ...How about all of the "serious" female artists who are supported by non-artist husbands who work full-time? I guess that cancels out the leg-up that men have by being male, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-68728652994223953252008-06-16T21:03:00.000-04:002008-06-16T21:03:00.000-04:00Even though I jumped in early on protesting the De...Even though I jumped in early on protesting the Deitch point of view, I have only worked full-time at a day job for very short periods of time (usually less than a month). Like Deborah and Pretty Lady, I also find I can't get enough of my own work done if I work full time. But I was still offended by the dismissiveness of the assumption that one CAN'T be a good artist and work full time. I think every individual has to work it out for themselves and dealers should judge on a case by case basis. I empathize with those who don't have a choice, or who choose to arrange their lives differently. Some people may choose to try to pay off their student loans quickly so as not to have them hanging over their heads. And the mindset that assumes that an artist can not have a full time job if they believe in themselves is just too privileged and upper-class for me to be comfortable endorsing it. Some people have family obligations, some people have children, some people have health issues and need their insurance. Who are we healthy, childless, debt-free people to say that those people can not be serious artists? So Ed, since you implied that I seemed to be taking it personally, yes, I'm personally offended by the Deitch point of view, but not because I personally am in that category of artists that he excludes. I don't want to only see art by people from rich families; I want to see art from people with diverse backgrounds and it should come as no surprise that some of those people have to work full-time to survive.<BR/><BR/>OrianeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-91142920548559383022008-06-16T20:00:00.000-04:002008-06-16T20:00:00.000-04:00Please understand that I won't offer up personal i...Please understand that I won't offer up personal information about any of my artists to further one side or the other of a controversial debate. It's not fair to them, and given that the plural of "anecdote" is still not "data," it doesn't really help to put such information out there.<BR/><BR/>You can make your point without such an example, no?Edward_http://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-44383670574327946732008-06-16T19:43:00.000-04:002008-06-16T19:43:00.000-04:00EW - Is Joy G. a full-time employee at the Met? I ...EW - Is Joy G. a full-time employee at the Met? I just want to out someone so we can get past the bullshit that no "serious artist" works FT.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-72057357592128441612008-06-16T15:45:00.000-04:002008-06-16T15:45:00.000-04:00Wow, interesting thread... I wish I'd come across ...Wow, interesting thread... I wish I'd come across it sooner. Thanks as always, Edward. <BR/><BR/>The thing that happens in all these threads like this is people get all bent out of shape about the unfairness of it all. I empathize with that. Deitch is an ass if he can't see that you don't leave art school with a trust fund automatically, and he's confusing artists with resources (Dash Snow, Hope Atherton) with good artists. <BR/><BR/>But this is not as stupid as it sounds on Deitch's part. Artist X--who is going to believe in you financially if you can't believe in yourself financially? Who's going to invest in your career if you don't? <BR/><BR/>The truth is that I don't know any serious artists who work full time <BR/><BR/>(teaching excepted--that's full time in name only) for more than brief stints. They don't do it because it's bad for their art, and the truth is that these people don't have trust funds, but they do figure out creative ways around the particulars like rent and feeding themselves. <BR/><BR/>All in all, I have to say that I think Deitch is limiting himself by making a categorical denial. There are artists I am sure who flourish after 5. The last time I had a full time job, I did get a lot of work done. But I don't think the assertion that an artist probably shouldn't have a full time job is baseless, and I am looking to my own experience when I say that. I will do *anything* to work less, so that I can be in my studio more. <BR/><BR/>It's simply what my art needs.deborahfisherhttp://profile.typekey.com/deborahfisher/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-42001384424498839032008-06-15T11:27:00.000-04:002008-06-15T11:27:00.000-04:00People with money don't have to work, so what's in...People with money don't have to work, so what's interesting is what motivates their dedication to devote their time and energy into making art. Either they're looking after social status or they really have something to say. But it's interesting to compare the type of art that people from different economic standings can produce.<BR/><BR/>The artworld is not a place to seek models for righteous politics, I find. Actually, many artists are pointing that out through their art. I tend to appreciate art by eliminating everything that goes behind it, including the artist. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Cedric<BR/><BR/>PS: I like Deitch because it's a cozy gallery. I feel like I could arrive there dressed in a pyjama, somehow. This is a type of place where I would definitely show, especially that the Wooster spot has the most intriguing architecture. I'm not attracted by issues of programming or gallerist, or whatever apparently an artist should consider, I'm really focussing on atmosphere and architecture. Is that weird?Cedric Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-17266202124565865892008-06-13T15:02:00.000-04:002008-06-13T15:02:00.000-04:00Jeffrey Deitch comments points to artist who are l...Jeffrey Deitch comments points to artist who are lucky enough to come from very wealthy families. I know of 2 who I won't name as it's in bad taste to do so. They are both in a major gallery and having this money behind them sure made life easy for them. Hence my anonymous post.<BR/><BR/>One who I did not know but was in the same school as me has a trust fund, father is a multi-millionaire.<BR/><BR/>Maybe Deitch is pointing out that they should have enough money to get them through a year or two to see if they can make it in New York. That they should spend all the time working on their work.<BR/>That makes more sense to me, I could be wrong, but this is not a bad idea if one could afford to do this.<BR/><BR/>I don't begrudge trust fund artist, that has nothing to do with how good they are. They are lucky and more power to them to use this gift to make art. There are worse things they could do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-52358917320518269852008-06-12T18:46:00.000-04:002008-06-12T18:46:00.000-04:00Interestingly, the situation is exactly the opposi...Interestingly, the situation is exactly the opposite for writers. Working for a magazine or publishing house is a huge leg up. Someone with no editorial experience has a much harder time breaking in and being taken seriously.Lisa Hunterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16273391238820872246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-12079122449399647462008-06-12T18:06:00.000-04:002008-06-12T18:06:00.000-04:00Hi Ed, I'm new here but want to thank you for bein...Hi Ed, <BR/><BR/>I'm new here but want to thank you for being so frank and explaining how the system works. I hope heated discussions won't deter you any future contributions to this blog; which after a short read is fantastic! Although it's a tough world I'd rather know how things work so I can try to slot in or not. It's a matter of choice and dealing with what's real. <BR/><BR/>Thank you. <BR/><BR/>Sam BechAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-46968709173594472152008-06-12T17:45:00.000-04:002008-06-12T17:45:00.000-04:00Note that I didn't use "decorative" as I find an a...Note that I didn't use "decorative" as I find an artist assuming decor is almost a rebellious act these days.<BR/><BR/>CedricCedricnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-3750617951707835342008-06-12T17:34:00.000-04:002008-06-12T17:34:00.000-04:00Edward:>>>But a decade from now is >>>generally ho...Edward:<BR/>>>>But a decade from now is >>>generally how long a dealer >>>must wait to see a good return >>>>on their investment in a >>>totally unknown artist.<BR/><BR/><BR/>This is off topic but I'll take the opportunity to decry again what I see as a failure of the commercial gallery system in how it shapes the art that is shown in those spaces by depending on many of these sub-criterias, the more important being that the work can sell. And though it is easy to point fingers to the lazy taste of collectors looking for the type of art that can fit their living room, I think gallerists could have a fair influence in shifting these clichés by promoting art that explore different approches to art-thinking (as opposed to artmaking).<BR/><BR/>In other words I'm sad at the idea that a commercial gallerst might refuse to deal an artist they find thoroughly interesting by fear that the art is unsellable, at the profit of an artist which is much less interesting but sells like candy. I am pretty sure these sacrifices occur frequently and they are shaping the way people perceive of art (at least temporarely).<BR/><BR/><BR/>Conclusion, if the art exists to fulfill a payload, it's almost the same as an artist working on a job. It becomes complacent, convenient, "commoditic", functionalist, etc...<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>Cedric CaspesyanCedric Caspesyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-32141661019254207732008-06-12T13:20:00.000-04:002008-06-12T13:20:00.000-04:00Ed,I salute your courage in putting yourself out t...Ed,<BR/>I salute your courage in putting yourself out there. Going public on the internet opens one up to all sorts of wackos (though it does occasionally make for interesting reading). <BR/><BR/>Regarding my cynicism I’ll just say: give yourself another twenty years and you might see my attitude as more insightful. If I were truly an art world cynic, I wouldn’t be doing the kind of work I do. <BR/><BR/>I’m thinking of taking PL’s advice, and becoming a pole dancer. I’ve got great legs, and there’s gotta be some make-up that will cover the liver spots and varicose veins.kalm jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12332427203855310614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-33529557195305548442008-06-12T11:35:00.000-04:002008-06-12T11:35:00.000-04:00I have to go with all is disingenuous here, as I h...I have to go with all is disingenuous here, as I have seen artists posting claim to have "worked" in the past when I know full well they still work, and they just dont wish Ed to know. I was once told by a dealer "We dont want artists who work, we want artists who can go out and dance all night then get up and make things in their studio." I was never certain who "We" was exactly but the use of that word seems to say it all. Basically I would say follow the advice of the artist who is trying to ingratiate themself here on this thread, and be disingenuous. Whatever it takes. Remember "Art is a lie that tells truths"<BR/>PS Charles Ives toiled as an insurance salesman all his life.<BR/>I'd say he was pretty influential.<BR/>I am certain that this will just come across as angry in cyberspace, but it is not, its just sad. Sad about the situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-91578298026896866922008-06-12T08:33:00.000-04:002008-06-12T08:33:00.000-04:00And Ed, that tacky person who just insulted you gr...<I>And Ed, that tacky person who just insulted you gratuitously is an embittered, malicious serial stalker. I highly recommend banning her.</I><BR/><BR/>I saw that comment last night, didn't know how to respond, decided I'd sleep on it, but today, still, I got nothing. But that just makes us even. That person's clearly got nothing as well.Edward_http://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-58038421396383452372008-06-12T08:31:00.000-04:002008-06-12T08:31:00.000-04:00it’s where does a dealer look to assess an artist?...<I>it’s where does a dealer look to assess an artist? Well quite clearly in EW or JD’s case the last place they want to look is TO THE WORK! The reason being that the dealer simply can’t trust their perceptions/understanding there – I mean that would require like, expertise, possibly research and intellectual engagement, right? Phew! Let’s slip that one into the too-hard tray, right there.</I><BR/><BR/>CAP, with all due respect, you're not even remotely trying to see the big picture here from the gallerist's point of view. As I've noted, but clearly not enough, I'm writing these posts to offer some insights, not to piss anyone off or suggest you should agree with me about the issues. But simply to clarify the questions people have so artists/collectors/etc. can use that information in helping them steer through the muddy waters of the gallery system. Stop over-reacting to it, or you'll make me not want to do it.<BR/><BR/>To address your central complaint (that dealers don't look at the work [and I'll ignore your wildly flung insults]), perhaps it would help you to understand that dealers know artwork being done today is no guarantee the same level of quality or innovation or accomplishment will be still be there a decade from now. But a decade from now is generally how long a dealer must wait to see a good return on their investment in a totally unknown artist. Even if they really, really like/understand/appreciate the work being done today.<BR/><BR/>Artists' lives and goals change just like anyone elses. A good artist I know whose career was just getting underway found herself responsible for running the family business when her father passed away. She had to take it over. Her studio practice had to be put on hold. Shit like this happens. <BR/><BR/>More to the point of whether an artist's day job is a hindrance to a dealer wanting to work with them (and I never said it was, by the way, so lumping me in with that is ungracious of you), we're not talking about whether the dealer likes the artist's work or not. There are plenty of artists whose work I'm very fond of, but whom I would never work with because they're total terrors. Or maybe they're just fine, but our personalities clash. It's about working with the artists whose work you love AND who you'll work well with. It's a partnership. <BR/><BR/>Some dealers may feel they can't work well with an artist if that artist has a fulltime job. Perhaps the way they best make sales is by rushing collectors off to the studio at a moment's notice, and so having the artist in the studio more often than not is key to their success. Each dealer is different. Just as you, as an artist, have every right to decide you won't work with a dealer known, for example, for being at their country home 4 days a week (or you might hang with that, it's up to you), a dealer has every right in my opinion to decide the criteria that make sense for him or her. If you don't like it, don't work with them. But don't project all kinds of libelous shit onto them just because you don't like how they make their choices.<BR/><BR/>One final note on this, the work being good is clearly critical. But it's only one part of what makes a dealer decide to work with an artist. It's not like there's any shortage of artists looking for representation, many of them very, very good, so to suggest it's only the work the dealers should be looking at is, quite frankly, deluded. They must make choices and whether you like it or not, these criteria are among the tools they use to do so. So recognize the signs, and work with it to your advantage.Edward_http://www.blogger.com/profile/00110804435781673357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-61716503860977558732008-06-12T00:51:00.000-04:002008-06-12T00:51:00.000-04:00Perhaps you could give myself and other struggling...<I>Perhaps you could give myself and other struggling artists here some tips on “creative ways of supporting myself on what I can earn in as little time as possible.”</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://ohprettylady.blogspot.com/2008/01/how-to-survive-financially-as-artist_17.html" REL="nofollow">Here you go!</A><BR/><BR/>Right now I am a self-employed bodyworker, because I can work for 1 1/2 hours and earn about as much as I would if I were working behind the desk at a gallery, ALL DAY. Also, people who can afford massage can frequently afford art, hint, hint. <BR/><BR/>And Ed, that tacky person who just insulted you gratuitously is an embittered, malicious serial stalker. I <I>highly</I> recommend banning her.Pretty Ladyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-5134765754478525032008-06-12T00:18:00.000-04:002008-06-12T00:18:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.CAPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09861096695503969576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-63939884906139632392008-06-11T23:24:00.000-04:002008-06-11T23:24:00.000-04:00THAT IS SOOO CUTE and totally poetic!:http://www.y...THAT IS SOOO CUTE and totally poetic!:<BR/><BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pC-hoDs9lc<BR/><BR/><BR/>CedricCedric Casnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-86349012835972941632008-06-11T22:58:00.000-04:002008-06-11T22:58:00.000-04:00James:>>>Surprisingly none of the comments has any...James:<BR/>>>>Surprisingly none of the comments has anything to do with the actual art<BR/><BR/><BR/>Hmm, Zipthwung had a critical comment about Lichtenstein. And them some more about...<BR/>Hey: stainless steel art ! .. Well, Zip.. To me Kapoor and Koons are two facets of<BR/>the same coin. Koons is getting repetitive but have done the greats in ways that I usually<BR/>read as less superficial than it's widely regarded.<BR/><BR/>I don't see Altmejd related to either, but that man clashes.<BR/>I feel priviledged to have followed this guy's art long before<BR/>he crashed the scene (and trust me, in his beginning group<BR/>shows, he was cute but really wasn't a standout, that came after<BR/>his studies in New York. He started very young, though). I<BR/>think David is heading toward the top, whatever that means. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I think the difference between David and other quality artists<BR/>of where I'm coming from is somehow he became a carrierist.<BR/>It's all what it takes, but it sounds like involving a lot of sacrifices. Some people don't want to just spend their life making art, which goes against what is discussed here which I find very carrier-oriented*. There is great art outside the carrier circles that I presume so much people here are missing (now..THAT's a pompous statement, but..) <BR/><BR/>>>>poofter<BR/>Oh, and you're the doofer oofer given anonymo(doof)us a bad name.<BR/><BR/>Cedric C<BR/><BR/><BR/>(*no relation to David Carrier)Cedric Caspesyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-7785808823989127722008-06-11T21:23:00.000-04:002008-06-11T21:23:00.000-04:00We're not talking about the art because the conver...We're not talking about the art because the conversation is about the business of being an artist. Quite distinct from a discussion on aesthetics. Although the two things go hand in hand, they are entirely separate activities that often contradict one another...<BR/>Anon, what was the purpose of that post? Like, what use did it serve at all, to anyone? Furthermore, what is with the homophobia on this thread? Anonymous coward, angry at your own failures, you probably see yourself as some kind of hero for 'tellin' it like it is'. (Oh god, Ed, it wasn't just Bambino joking around was it?)Sean Caponehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09352287834934434837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-53313882814767422022008-06-11T20:58:00.000-04:002008-06-11T20:58:00.000-04:00Sure, it could be Damien couldn't it--night club t...Sure, it could be Damien couldn't it--night club too! But na, Damien has given up his day job I have heard. So prize goes to anon. ... Kevin must be that example 'there is <I>an</I> artist...' [sometimes I wonder, was it that I was born illiterate, or is it that I'm just driving that way]. <BR/><BR/>Kalm says nobody is talking about the art. Does that mean, 'in order to' be an artist and be burdened with having to work full-time, 'the art', which is kind of a spinoff from the 'art career' needs to be good? <BR/>So, I'm thinking, all those great names Carol offers [Carol, Myron, how did he get through?], does it mean that because they supported themselves for a time working away from the studio [Irwin during the race days I think used to just hang out in the street for hours, in a sense, was his studio--a place and state away from " " for incubation. The racing too, was part and parcel of the shift Irwin was going through, right, being fascinated by information and relationships, from the tiny to the big--helps with horse racing BTW, as with anything, really!] they are poor models, bordering on the unprofessional? Or was it that their work was not very good at the time. I was going to say 'not sellable at the time'. But everyone knows 'that if it's good, it is sold' <BR/>I heard the next big umbrella is going to be <B>The Politics of Space.</B>That's a mighty big umbrella, but Ok, it might be interesting.<BR/>Sean's diversification of income has to make sense:) <BR/>Seems to me people are having a hard time picking what is good, so these little rules get imagined as 'good business practice'.<BR/>Good to ask artists what is good. Only problem then is which artists do you ask?concrete phonehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04772571120911112640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-56403215810928239992008-06-11T20:31:00.000-04:002008-06-11T20:31:00.000-04:00Ed,you are apompous little poofter.You give gay fo...Ed,you are apompous little poofter.You give gay folks a bad name.Go deal antiques.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12363995.post-24857999853714082252008-06-11T20:07:00.000-04:002008-06-11T20:07:00.000-04:00Thank you,Carol D,I feel better having read what y...Thank you,Carol D,I feel better having read what you wrote-maybe I can sleep tonight-valnoreply@blogger.com