GreecePwns wrote:Scotty, will you continue to ignore the facts and make the Greek economic crisis a spending issue?

The Greek economic crisis was caused by corrupt officials from the federal government down to the local governments purposefully allowing taxpayers to report salaries on average 60 percent less than their real salary, which in turn causes massive government debt. The German and French power grabbers and ignorant fiscal conservatives can blame this on spending all they want and call for the Greek working people to be punished, but it is simply not true.

Right, Greece's debt has nothing to do with it....Greece's credit rating was downgraded because salaries were under-reported.....Greece's interest rates on bonds are sky high and at junk status because people didn't want to pay their fair share of taxes. These are all political talking point and blame game strategies, which, sadly, contribute nothing to solving the problem and actually make it worse. Spending is what gets you into debt. If you have a problem with me calling it spending too much, that's fine, but it doesn't change the problem. Your whole rant reminds me of the bullshit rant here in the USA, that our credit rating was not downgraded because we can't pass a budget, or make interest payments on our debt, or because our debt is over 100% of GDP...no no no we were downgraded because of the language of a few members in the House of Representatives.... x a billion

The Greek people are going to be punished, and it's pretty important to know the reasons why. Greeks do not know the reason why, just what the medi (which is controlled by the same people who got you into this mess) says. If they people had a clue, they would have done something about these problems a long time ago.

spending too much is what got you in debt. Not paying enough in taxes made it worse, of course, but perhaps you guys shouldn't have spent so much that it made your people find ways to get out of taxes that were way too high....not in your opinion, but in their (the over-taxed people) opinion.

To the country of Greece....nice knowing you, but thanks for showing the world a perfect example of what not to do.

This is true at the local/municipality level. Usually what happens is that schools end up having 20 teachers where 7 or 8 are needed, but compared to the tax evasion corruption this is minute (local governments don't do much other than city planning and basic services).

NY Times reports mass expulsions from the three parties in the coalition government as a punishment for not voting for the Franco-German Power Grab austerity bill.

"After the vote, all three of the coalition parties moved swiftly to expel lawmakers who had not voted yes. The Socialists, who governed Greece from 2009 until Mr. Papademos was installed last November, ejected 23 lawmakers from their party; the New Democrats, who are expected to gain seats from the Socialists in the next election, ejected 21, and the Popular Orthodox Rally 2."

Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.

And what caused the debt? Hint hint: The tax evasion. Not spending. Greece's level of spending as a % of GDP is not much higher than the EU average, 46% as compared to Germany's 43% (the US is at 39%). And France's is 7th highest in the world at 52%. Yet these two are leading the way in calling for the cutting of the minimum wage by 22 percent among other measures.

I've slapped you around on this before, so I will simply state that all informed experts agree Greece would have turned surpluses had the 4-4-2 method not have been in existence. (The 4-4-2 method is a widely-known code in Greece in which 40% of the real tax would go to the government, 40% simply not paid, and 20% in the tax collection official's pocket).

EDIT: Tax experts in Greece say that tax evasion taxes result in about 20 billion euro lost funds for the government. Only in 2008-2010 have government deficits exceeded 20 billion euros (on average by 7 billion/year), but this would have been made up by the massive surpluses from the previous years.

So stop telling me what's going on in my country until you start looking at basic facts. You make a fool out of yourself every time.

Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.

GreecePwns wrote:The Greek economic crisis was caused by corrupt officials from the federal government down to the local governments purposefully allowing taxpayers to report salaries on average 60 percent less than their real salary, which in turn causes massive government debt...

Couldn't the government have just spent, on average, 60% less and avoided all this trouble?

What does the greek government really need other than grapes and lube anyway?

GreecePwns wrote:The Greek economic crisis was caused by corrupt officials from the federal government down to the local governments purposefully allowing taxpayers to report salaries on average 60 percent less than their real salary, which in turn causes massive government debt...

Couldn't the government have just spent, on average, 60% less and avoided all this trouble?

The only way to solve the problem of tax evasion is by legalizing it?

We're still ignoring the fact that the government would have run surpluses with a clean and proper auditing system, while applauding IMF Employees' of the Year Lucas Papademos (the IMF-installed Prime Minister, I kid you not) and George Papandreou (the leader of a so-called socialist party) for calling for a reduction of the minimum wage to less than $5.50 an hour and the slashing of contracts between unions and the private sector.

Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.

Government spending is the reason for the taxes, and high taxes are the reason for tax evasion. If Greece did not spend so much, there would not be a need for people to owe so much that they felt they needed to evade their taxes.

Government spending comes before the taxes to pay for the spending. Greece got it's nose stuck in the honey pot. Greece pigged out, big time. The pinnacle of greed...

Government spending is the reason for the taxes, and high taxes are the reason for tax evasion. If Greece did not spend so much, there would not be a need for people to owe so much that they felt they needed to evade their taxes.

Government spending comes before the taxes to pay for the spending. Greece got it's nose stuck in the honey pot. Greece pigged out, big time. The pinnacle of greed...

So if taxes were "reasonable" then people would pay them purely out of a sense of duty, without any external inforcement?

Government spending is the reason for the taxes, and high taxes are the reason for tax evasion. If Greece did not spend so much, there would not be a need for people to owe so much that they felt they needed to evade their taxes.

Government spending comes before the taxes to pay for the spending. Greece got it's nose stuck in the honey pot. Greece pigged out, big time. The pinnacle of greed...

So if taxes were "reasonable" then people would pay them purely out of a sense of duty, without any external inforcement?

Aww, the naivety is just adorable.

Is that a serious question? Okay, here is the answer then...If people feel taxes are reasonable, then yes, they will be far less likely to evade them.If people feel taxes are unreasonable, then yes, people will be far more likely to evade them.

Whether or not Greece is spending a lot, we would have had surpluses. If my government were to spend 2 euros and take in 2.5, they'd run a surplus too.

Systematic tax evasion is like money found on the floor. If people can evade 40 percent of their taxes knowing they will not get audited or punished in any way, whether they are at 42 percent of their income or 24 percent, they will evade them. Saying otherwise is indeed naive and ignores the basis of economic incentives.

This has nothing to do with Greece's level of spending, because no government budgets for a surplus of 10% of GDP to account for rampant tax evasion.

Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.

GreecePwns wrote:Whether or not Greece is spending a lot, we would have had surpluses. If my government were to spend 2 euros and take in 2.5, they'd run a surplus too.

Systematic tax evasion is like money found on the floor. If people can evade 40 percent of their taxes knowing they will not get audited or punished in any way, whether they are at 42 percent of their income or 24 percent, they will evade them. Saying otherwise is indeed naive and ignores the basis of economic incentives.

This has nothing to do with Greece's level of spending, because no government budgets for a surplus of 10% of GDP to account for rampant tax evasion.

I just want to put it like this. Cut spending, and the demand for "more revenues" will not exist. You can't spend more than you have, it only seems like you can for a little while. I'm sure it was fun, but now Greece has to pay the piper.

Sorry, but Greece is getting what they deserve, and I'm sure America is going to get what it deserves in an extremely similar fashion. The only way out of this was for Greece to cut spending/the need for more revenues a few years ago, and that didn't happen.

This is the #1 reason why I am and have been so fucking hardcore about cutting America's spending 3-5 years before we get in over our heads. That's why it's Ron Paul, now or never.

We need to cut 1 trillion dollars out of our budget NEXT YEAR! If you think that's bad, it will be far worse if we wait until we can't do anything about it, and have OTHER countries tell us what to do and how to live. Whoever owns our debt will be the one making the rules, and we can kiss freedom or anything remotely close to it goodbye.

USA has already been downgraded once....we are about to be downgraded again. There are no second chances, and bailouts just prolong reality a little bit longer and make the debt even bigger.

GreecePwns wrote:Whether or not Greece is spending a lot, we would have had surpluses. If my government were to spend 2 euros and take in 2.5, they'd run a surplus too.

Systematic tax evasion is like money found on the floor. If people can evade 40 percent of their taxes knowing they will not get audited or punished in any way, whether they are at 42 percent of their income or 24 percent, they will evade them. Saying otherwise is indeed naive and ignores the basis of economic incentives.

This has nothing to do with Greece's level of spending, because no government budgets for a surplus of 10% of GDP to account for rampant tax evasion.

I just want to put it like this. Cut spending, and the demand for "more revenues" will not exist. You can't spend more than you have, it only seems like you can for a little while. I'm sure it was fun, but now Greece has to pay the piper.

Sorry, but Greece is getting what they deserve, and I'm sure America is going to get what it deserves in an extremely similar fashion. The only way out of this was for Greece to cut spending/the need for more revenues a few years ago, and that didn't happen.

This is the #1 reason why I am and have been so fucking hardcore about cutting America's spending 3-5 years before we get in over our heads. That's why it's Ron Paul, now or never.

We need to cut 1 trillion dollars out of our budget NEXT YEAR! If you think that's bad, it will be far worse if we wait until we can't do anything about it, and have OTHER countries tell us what to do and how to live. Whoever owns our debt will be the one making the rules, and we can kiss freedom or anything remotely close to it goodbye.

USA has already been downgraded once....we are about to be downgraded again. There are no second chances, and bailouts just prolong reality a little bit longer and make the debt even bigger.

It's now or never.

Okay.

Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.

GreecePwns wrote:Whether or not Greece is spending a lot, we would have had surpluses. If my government were to spend 2 euros and take in 2.5, they'd run a surplus too.

Systematic tax evasion is like money found on the floor. If people can evade 40 percent of their taxes knowing they will not get audited or punished in any way, whether they are at 42 percent of their income or 24 percent, they will evade them. Saying otherwise is indeed naive and ignores the basis of economic incentives.

This has nothing to do with Greece's level of spending, because no government budgets for a surplus of 10% of GDP to account for rampant tax evasion.

I just want to put it like this. Cut spending, and the demand for "more revenues" will not exist. You can't spend more than you have, it only seems like you can for a little while. I'm sure it was fun, but now Greece has to pay the piper.

Sorry, but Greece is getting what they deserve, and I'm sure America is going to get what it deserves in an extremely similar fashion. The only way out of this was for Greece to cut spending/the need for more revenues a few years ago, and that didn't happen.

This is the #1 reason why I am and have been so fucking hardcore about cutting America's spending 3-5 years before we get in over our heads. That's why it's Ron Paul, now or never.

We need to cut 1 trillion dollars out of our budget NEXT YEAR! If you think that's bad, it will be far worse if we wait until we can't do anything about it, and have OTHER countries tell us what to do and how to live. Whoever owns our debt will be the one making the rules, and we can kiss freedom or anything remotely close to it goodbye.

USA has already been downgraded once....we are about to be downgraded again. There are no second chances, and bailouts just prolong reality a little bit longer and make the debt even bigger.

Everyone and their mother seems to want to lead their own party in Greece, leading to there now being 12 in Parliament and 3 more pushing to enter in the next election. The two most recent opinion polls averaged together give us this Parliament.

Possible coalitions: Absolutely none. The only one I see even remotely possible is ND + PASOK, which is exactly 151 seats as of today. I don't expect even this possibility to be available in the next opinion poll.

Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.

Isn't this a good thing? Having 12 parties? At least the government can't make any decisions. If the legal systems are robust enough, enable common law and let Greeks sort it out themselves.

I'm sure political authority at the provincial or county level would be less fractious than at the national government level, so why not let government's effective authority end at the subnational level?

BigBallinStalin wrote:Isn't this a good thing? Having 12 parties? At least the government can't make any decisions. If the legal systems are robust enough, enable common law and let Greeks sort it out themselves.

I don't think the Greeks have the common law ... TGD? Since their courts can't "discover" laws they have to rely on a legislature to pass them?

We do not have common law. BBS, in these situations what usually happens is minority government is formed, lasts maybe a couple of months, and election after election is held until something changes. Just look at Canada and the UK, where eventually both conservative parties were essentially saying, "This country needs a majority, and since we're leading in the polls, we deserve it." And it worked.

-PASOK has elected a "new" leader for their party, Evangelos Venizelos. Same as the old boss. In the US you have the Kennedys and the Bushes, we have Venizelos, Papandreou and Karamanlis. They all take their turns in party leadership.

-SYRIZA leader is calling for a dialogue which would possibly lead to a coalition between Democratic Left, SYRIZA and KKE. KKE refuses to talk to the other left parties as always, and Democratic Left just broke away from SYRIZA. A 3 party coalition would get 153 seats according to the estimation in the OP, while a SYRIZA-Dim.Ar. cooperation would get 116 seats. In both, ND would be reduced to 67 seats.

Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.