Posted:7th Aug 2004mentioned this a little while back here but am posting more about it now because of a certain princess i know getting as close to nailing it as anyone i've seen.

its a ridiculously hard move to maintain plane control through but if mastered, it would look truly beautiful...

so, the standard bf ww that most people do is based on opposite direction, same-time reels.

one hand spins the btb waistwrap circle followed by a carry which fits it perfectly into the reels.

i adore it; it looks great, feels effortless and has tonnes of gorgeous variations.

but it isn't a real bf ww...

if you take a standard btb waistwrap and reverse the direction that one of the poi is spinning in, you get a butterfly waistwrap.

that move, spun same-time is the killer.

an example (there are 4 basic versions although they come in pairs that are almost identical) of it broken down would be:

1 beat of a bf on right side - left hand btb ww position on right, right hand at right side. [both poi in front wall plane]

1 beat of btb bf. [both poi in behind wall plane]

1 beat of a bf on left side - right hand in btb ww position on left, left hand at left side. [both poi in front wall plane]

simultaneous top and bottom carries back to start position. [both poi in behind wall plane]

spun correctly, hands should remain together for the whole move - there should be no splitting of beats front and back like in the reel based versions.

it seems it can be forced through one cycle okay but maintaining the pattern becomes very tricky, very fast for me.

hope this makes sense to some of youse

if you don't know what a waistwrap is, hit that search button and if you're still not sure whats going on here, check out some threads on butterfly weaves, looking out for discussions on spinning them same-time and btb.

if anyone ever gets this move with completely solid timing and clean planes, could you please make a video with it on fire and send it to me to worship and drool over please?

[that's if me bammy doesn't beat ya to it of course... ]

"i see you at 'dis cafe.i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.they do porridge."- tim westwood

Posted:7th Aug 2004spiral - thinking about how bth bf works, you may be able to get away with no ttn's at all by turning your hands upside down for the btb bit.

hmmm - but this would cause a problem though as one hand is naturally on top on one side and the other hand needs to be when you get to the other side.

failing to do the ttn's and swap which hand is on top (i say 'hand on top' as its easy to relate to but it really refers to which poi is marginally leading) is what casues tangles on the transitions front to back and vice-versa.

to stop the tangles and still not have to ttn you would need to have your hands or wrists crossed when spinning the bf on one of the sides (preferably the side you start on so you don't have to do the carries with crossed hands!).

imho it would look messier and wouldn't be possible at all in split-time without the ttn's.

"i see you at 'dis cafe.i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.they do porridge."- tim westwood

Posted:7th Aug 2004i had a go at working this out after spiralx first told me about butterfly waist wraps. since then i've left it well alone. might be time to have another crack now you mention it tho....

It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Posted:8th Aug 2004um does the hand which is not doing the BTB go on the outside of the bfly? and then after the BTB carry to the other side, That sides non btb hand is on the outside? if so - I do these with clubs. I think PK called them outsides? also - Ow can do another variation.

Josh

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Posted:9th Aug 2004jonny - i can ww tnn and btb ttn but doing it during the carries is the problem...

we play soon

josh - yeah, they're the ones but there are a few types - these are the ones that have proper butterflies i.e. both poi/clubs are always in the same plane as each other, either in btb ww position or both btb.

if you can go from a btb ww bf on your left to btb ww bf on right in one beat you can do these

dub - definitely work on it man!

you can show it me next time i see ya

arashi - i'm not so sure i'll get them

if i could put me balls down for two minutes i might get a bit closer but i don't see it happening...

"i see you at 'dis cafe.i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.they do porridge."- tim westwood

Posted:9th Aug 2004I've always been a little confused about the "btb bf" how the hell do you do it? behind your back or behind your head? i can do it behind my head no problem but I've never even heard anyone mention it... unless that is the btb.... please? cure my confusion?

I'll get there too late if I shorten my stride, I'll get there too soon if I find me a ride, I'll never move forward if I try to hide this path that I've troden one step at a time.

Posted:10th Aug 2004Right, I started having a play with this at the weekend and then got distracted by something related. The "not real" BTB BF thingy mentioned by cole at the start of his thread - try doing it in from in front rather than BTB i.e. so one poi crosses at the front and does a circle in the rear wall plane at the opposite hip.

It's surprisingly tricky in terms of getting planes and timing right and feels fairly unnatural for quite a while. But I think there's potential there for more stuff, especially when you go from doing that straight into the BTB version by going around the body.

As for a full WW's are you talking about when both arms are waste wrapped at the same time? If so, I can do them in front, but not in back yet. Its tough cuz since one arm has to always be crossed on top of the other, you need to be really flexible to get the top one to do the beat in front. I can ALMOST get these in chase mode, butterfly I havent even attempted yet. I know one of the TT boys did the full BTB WW chase in the TT1 vid. Once I get the chase down, Ill work on the BF one.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.We'll blaze a new trail,and torch the rough patches.

I didnt see the first one but it sounds like something ditty would do...

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Posted:10th Aug 2004getting this move is NOT a matter of flexibility per se. it's in the timing, and the pivot. the posture and flexibility keep you from hurting yourself.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted:10th Aug 2004A waist wrap is when, if your doing poi in front of you, the poi are btb. If the hands are btb, then the poi is in front. "btb in the front wall plane" arashi once told me.

Arashi, you must be SICK man, i call a 6bt btb waist wrap one of the hardest moves as flex goes! And im pretty sure the move being discussed here is exactly the same hand position...just in b-fly. Btb ww ttn = 6bt btb ww weave.