I didn't make this list so don't flame on me. Just posting what K.C. Joyner had to say. If you scroll down the list Carr is the second best decision maker behind only Tom Brady. I'm not saying I agree with what it says, I'm just posting it for the sake of argument.

1. Forcing a pass into coverage
2. Staring at a receiver
3. Throwing the ball despite being tackled
4. Misreading a zone defense and not seeing a defender in the passing lane.

If the quarterback's mistake did not lead to a turnover (e.g., a dropped interception, a recovered fumble, etc.), the mistake is given only one bad decision point. If the mistake led to a turnover, however, it is given two mistake points and also is subject to a graduating scale of points based on how damaging the turnover was (e.g., an additional point for an interception killing a scoring drive, another additional point if the interception led to the opponent's being set up in scoring position, etc.). The scale has an upper limit of five points for any single bad decision.

Scientific Football 2006 can be ordered now from KC Joyner's website.Bad decision rankings are based on two percentage bases. The first is the standard bad decision percentage. To calculate this, I take the number of bad decisions a quarterback generated and divide it by the total number of attempts. The second percentage rating is the weighted bad decision percentage. This is calculated by taking the number of bad decision points and dividing it by the total number of attempts.

if 2. is indeed a sign of a bad decision maker, then this guy was clearly on the sauce when he wrote that list.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry

08-08-2006, 04:47 PM

I didn't make this list so don't flame on me. Just posting what K.C. Joyner had to say. If you scroll down the list Carr is the second best decision maker behind only Tom Brady. I'm not saying I agree with what it says, I'm just posting it for the sake of argument.

This was on free ESPN insider.
Your going to get any argument, and that as far as i read so far.

jerek

08-08-2006, 04:48 PM

It's just the way he rated it and the fact that it appears he didn't assign a mistake for eating the ball or for causing a sack. That said, there's a lot to be said for the fact that a turnover is infinitely worse than a sack leading to a punt ... simple math conveniently ignored by the anti-Carr agenda.

TexansLucky13

08-08-2006, 04:57 PM

I'm still waiting for some anti-Carr sentiment here. This is another thing that goes to prove what I have suspected all along.... if the boy has protection, he can make the play. He either got it done, or got a sack. That does not bother me.

infantrycak

08-08-2006, 05:06 PM

This is another example where the results from the theory should cause the writer to reconsider the methodology. No way you've got a valid methodology if it ranks Carr #2 in the league last year. I suspect if some weighted factor was added in to consider the yards per attempt or nature of the O being run you would find Carr (5.88 ypa) falling significantly and Big Ben rising significantly (8.9 ypa).

Double Barrel

08-08-2006, 05:10 PM

Interesting way to look at things. It shows that perception is a choice at times. I don't recall a player in recent memory that had such extreme opinions from fans.

If you look at it from this guy's perspective, then Carr would have a winning record if he was Patriot and Brady would be hurting from 200 sacks over the past four seasons as a Texan.

TexansLucky13

08-08-2006, 05:11 PM

This is another example where the results from the theory should cause the writer to reconsider the methodology. No way you've got a valid methodology if it ranks Carr #2 in the league last year.

A classic anti-Carr argument. Wonderful.

If any study is conducted where Carr ends up looking good, then the study was obviously flawed.

I call you out on flawed logic instead.

wags

08-08-2006, 05:12 PM

This guy did the same thing last year and Carr was ranked really high. Doesn't really mean anyhting IMO. Carr needs to play better along with the other fellas.

TexansLucky13

08-08-2006, 05:15 PM

This guy did the same thing last year and Carr was ranked really high. Doesn't really mean anyhting IMO. Carr needs to play better along with the other fellas.

Of course it means nothing. Statistics mean absolutely nothing. And I agree, he does need to make better decisions. But it's funny how some people respond to Carr studies on this board. In their eyes there is nothing that can make him look respectable. Jeez.

The Dude Abides

08-08-2006, 05:19 PM

This guy did the same thing last year and Carr was ranked really high. Doesn't really mean anyhting IMO. Carr needs to play better along with the other fellas.

From his 2005 article
That also leads me to a question I received via e-mail. A few people wrote in and asked me how it was that David Carr had only 10 bad decisions in 2004, yet he threw 14 interceptions. There were actually a couple of reasons for that. One is that I was missing a few plays from Carr's 2004 season, two of which were interception plays.

The second and more important point is that not all interceptions are the result of bad decisions. Two of David Carr's 2004 interceptions came from passes that were tipped at the line of scrimmage by defensive linemen. That type of play would not be listed as a bad decision because Carr didn't make a field vision or judgment error. That same type of reasoning is used on a jump ball. If Daunte Culpepper threw a fade pattern to Randy Moss last year, and the cornerback outjumped Moss for an interception. Is it right to charge Culpepper with a bad decision? In that case, the interception would have come more from the cornerback's good play than anything Culpepper did wrong.

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 05:24 PM

Of course it means nothing. Statistics mean absolutely nothing. And I agree, he does need to make better decisions. But it's funny how some people respond to Carr studies on this board. In their eyes there is nothing that can make him look respectable. Jeez.

from reading the little bit of premise given in the Original Post...... this looks like a good thing..... & I will resist my natural instinct to "spin" this........ and you know I can.

David Carr's Good Points: Strong Arm.... Mobile..... Smart.... and tough as nails...

I can agree with that.

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 05:25 PM

It's just the way he rated it and the fact that it appears he didn't assign a mistake for eating the ball or for causing a sack.

shew....... I thought I would have to say it..... thanks pal.

infantrycak

08-08-2006, 05:29 PM

A classic anti-Carr argument. Wonderful.

If any study is conducted where Carr ends up looking good, then the study was obviously flawed.

I call you out on flawed logic instead.

If you paid any attention around here at all you would realize I am not anti-Carr and watching football games last year instead of just cheerleading makes it pretty obvious Carr was not the 2nd best decision maker in the NFL.

TexansLucky13

08-08-2006, 05:29 PM

from reading the little bit of premise given in the Original Post...... this looks like a good thing..... & I will resist my natural instinct to "spin" this........ and you know I can.

David Carr's Good Points: Strong Arm.... Mobile..... Smart.... and tough as nails...

I can agree with that.

I agree. I know you can spin it, haha... and I sorta expected it. Props to you for having an objective view of this study. I personally see it as just another playing chip for my arguments against the anti-Carr crowd.

If you paid any attention around here at all you would realize I am not anti-Carr and watching football games last year instead of just cheerleading makes it pretty obvious Carr was not the 2nd best decision maker in the NFL.

Lately you have shown a little distaste for him. I myself thought it was strange, because I would not put you in the anti-Carr crowd on a normal basis. Whats wrong with you lately?

I don't cheerlead.... I study. As I said before if you were paying attention.... Carr needs some work. But he isn't half as bad as many want to make him out to be. I'm tired of hearing it and having to propose a stronger argument to counter a bit of bias.

infantrycak

08-08-2006, 05:38 PM

Lately you have shown a little distaste for him. I myself thought it was strange, because I would not put you in the anti-Carr crowd on a normal basis. Whats wrong with you lately?

I don't cheerlead.... I study. As I said before if you were paying attention.... Carr needs some work. But he isn't half as bad as many want to make him out to be. I'm tired of hearing it and having to propose a stronger argument to counter a bit of bias.

I don't know what I have said that could be interpreted as distaste for Carr--anything you want to point me to? I call 'em like I see 'em. If I see Carr at mid pack I will counter a post which says either he is great or sucks. Folks at the extremes somehow twist that into being in the camp of the opposite extreme.

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 05:43 PM

If you paid any attention around here at all you would realize I am not anti-Carr and watching football games last year instead of just cheerleading makes it pretty obvious Carr was not the 2nd best decision maker in the NFL.

Look....... stop taking cheap shots at our QB......... if you're going to root for the Texans, you have to understand the only way we'll be successful, is for Carr to be successfull.

People like you really bring this MB down..... disagreeing with everybody and all.....

:stirpot:

TexansLucky13

08-08-2006, 05:44 PM

I don't know what I have said that could be interpreted as distaste for Carr--anything you want to point me to? I call 'em like I see 'em. If I see Carr at mid pack I will counter a post which says either he is great or sucks. Folks at the extremes somehow twist that into being in the camp of the opposite extreme.

Yea, I made that same point when I was dicussing how liberals view Fox news as an extreme conservative news station even though they try to stay as moderate as possible.

I know you are pretty moderate about things infantrycak, but I read someof your posts the other day that were making me scratch my head. Sorry I don't have time to find them, I need to take my sis to colorguard.

The only thing I challenged was your original post. Other than that its all good. You gotta take this study at what its worth, and we all know that Carr can improve. I especially know that.

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 05:45 PM

Lately you have shown a little distaste for him. I myself thought it was strange, because I would not put you in the anti-Carr crowd on a normal basis. Whats wrong with you lately?

I'm giving you positive reps for this one....... finally, some one to call infantrycak out..... show us the real infantrycak.....

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 05:49 PM

This is another example where the results from the theory should cause the writer to reconsider the methodology. No way you've got a valid methodology if it ranks Carr #2 in the league last year. I suspect if some weighted factor was added in to consider the yards per attempt or nature of the O being run you would find Carr (5.88 ypa) falling significantly and Big Ben rising significantly (8.9 ypa).

I think he was only looking at mistakes, and the lack there of, not counting good decisions..... which is what you'd think, but just counting how many times the bad decisions really hurt your teams chance of winning.

Hutch13

08-08-2006, 05:52 PM

What suprises me even more is that jake plummer is on there.

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 05:58 PM

What suprises me even more is that jake plummer is on there.

Or that Bret Favre, Donavan McNabb, Matt Hasselback, and I don't know..... Trent Green aren't on that list....

If you throw the ball out there, you are at least giving your team a chance to make a play.... yeah, sometimes you'll get credited with an interception, that wasn't your fault... but you've got to shake it off, and keep chunking it down field...... that's what QBs do.

And if you win the game, fans and media pundits around the country will think you are a god...

TheCD

08-08-2006, 06:23 PM

I think that you have to take this with a grain of salt (albeit a positive grain). Even though he's rated number two in decision-making, that doesn't mean he's number two in performance. So even though he performed badly, that doesn't necessarily mean he was always making poor decisions. If you're running a two-reciever set, both of them are covered, and the pocket is crumbling around you...if you take a sack, is it necessarily bad? Easily half the time it is...but there are those instances that defenders who weren't in a position to make the sack could have tipped the ball causing even more problems.

There's lots of little decisions that a QB is making out there that most of us don't realize. I think it's a good thing that Carr is seen as an intellegent QB with the right tools. That means that if we get the right coach...he'll be able to do what we expect him to do.

Yea, I made that same point when I was dicussing how liberals view Fox news as an extreme conservative news station even though they try to stay as moderate as possible.

I have to disagree with you on this one. I'm a conservative myself, and even though they appear to be "fair and balanced" Rupert Murdoch has said from the beginning that he created the Fox News Network in order to have a conservative news network on television. The best example I can give is off the top of my head is when they used to have the old title for Hannity & Colmes, it would always read: Hannity & Colmes

Just pay attention to any news network...every single one of them has a bias one way or another. It's sad, really.

ArlingtonTexan

08-08-2006, 06:36 PM

There is much flawed in what Joyner is determining as a bad decision. I propose that no QB in the NFL made as few as 10 bad decisions during any year, much less David Carr.

Also, our headcoach (ex-NFL QB and successful QBcoach/OC) looked at film of Carr and stated that was looking at his primary target too much yet some stats guys obviously look at the same thing and does not come up with the same results.

At the end of the day, who opinion matters the most and whose eye do you trust?

Hulk75

08-08-2006, 06:38 PM

One of the major reasons why his option was picked up was because david will do everything he can before he forces the football, and hurts the team, he plays within the scheme, NO use in debating, the guy who wrote this is right.

I dont care what the arguement is Carr does make good decisions with the ball, why do you think his ints were so low on a team that had the worst record in football.

AND GUESS WHAT! 7 or 8 INTs were either tipped by his reciever or tipped at the line, GO back and watch if you think I am lying.

Hulk75

08-08-2006, 06:41 PM

There is much flawed in what Joyner is determining as a bad decision. I propose that no QB in the NFL made as few as 10 bad decisions during any year, much less David Carr.

Also, our headcoach (ex-NFL QB and successful QBcoach/OC) looked at film of Carr and stated that was looking at his primary target too much yet some stats guys obviously look at the same thing and does not come up with the same results.

At the end of the day, who opinion matters the most and whose eye do you trust?
The guys that gave him an extention for another 3 years, Bob, Gary and Troy.

jerek

08-08-2006, 06:55 PM

A classic anti-Carr argument. Wonderful.

If any study is conducted where Carr ends up looking good, then the study was obviously flawed.

I call you out on flawed logic instead.

Oh wow ... call out the wrong guy.

TheCD

08-08-2006, 07:09 PM

AND GUESS WHAT! 7 or 8 INTs were either tipped by his reciever or tipped at the line, GO back and watch if you think I am lying.

I'm a Carr fan myself...but ANY TIME a ball is tipped at the line of scrimmage it's the QB's fault for failing to notice that his passing lane had been obstructed.

the wonger need food

08-08-2006, 07:09 PM

One of the major reasons why his option was picked up was because david will do everything he can before he forces the football, and hurts the team, he plays within the scheme, NO use in debating, the guy who wrote this is right.

I dont care what the arguement is Carr does make good decisions with the ball, why do you think his ints were so low on a team that had the worst record in football.

AND GUESS WHAT! 7 or 8 INTs were either tipped by his reciever or tipped at the line, GO back and watch if you think I am lying.

Carr's option was picked for a lot of reasons... not all related to football skills.

He doesn't throw a lot of interceptions because he doesn't throw the ball downfield or to the middle of the field.

ArlingtonTexan

08-08-2006, 07:12 PM

The guys that gave him an extention for another 3 years, Bob, Gary and Troy.

Good...And what have they said this off-season about his performance?

powerfuldragon

08-08-2006, 07:17 PM

Or that Bret Favre, isn't on that list....

he made some poor decisions last year.

Hulk75

08-08-2006, 08:40 PM

I'm a Carr fan myself...but ANY TIME a ball is tipped at the line of scrimmage it's the QB's fault for failing to notice that his passing lane had been obstructed.
Playing DE for I dont know 10+ years I have a good view of batted down balls, batted down balls are nobodys fault its a great play by the dlineman unless the guy is standing in front of you and the QB throws the ball in your face, that is the only time it is the QBs fault, Lord Help me! WR dropping balls, WRs fault thats it.

Carr's option was picked for a lot of reasons... not all related to football skills.

He doesn't throw a lot of interceptions because he doesn't throw the ball downfield or to the middle of the field.
Not all football related? Not all football related!!!!!! This is the freaking NFL not pee wee buddy buddy 2 hands on the back football, if thought he could not cut it for any football reason he would not be here, if he was so bad as some of you say he would not have a job in the NFL right now, maybe as a back up!!!!! BUT guess what I guess a head coach that that has many Superbowl rings thought he has the stuuf to be one of the best.
Anyone want to take stab for the 1,000,000,000 time why he could not throw the ball deep and or down the middle last year?
Good...And what have they said this off-season about his performance?
Let me see what I can find:cool: ..............
That didn't take long at all," Kubiak says of his Carr diagnosis. "You say, 'This is what I want: a great kid who's athletic and can make every throw.' Well, there he is. He's standing right there. It's easy in the business to say I don't think this guy can do it, let's go get another one. We don't want to do things easy."
Just walking out on the field, actually believing in the system, having coaches that believe in you … It really feels like there's no way you're going to fail if you do it right," Carr says
"David hasn't performed to his ability yet," owner Bob McNair says. "I felt that with Gary, he could really elevate David's performance. I think that was the deciding factor (in hiring Kubiak)."
"We have a quarterback, we feel, who can take us to the next level," Kubiak says. "He's got a lot of time invested, too. He's got four years busting his (rear end). To give up on that, to me, is a mistake. This kid has put in a tremendous amount of work, and he's ready to play his best football over the next six or seven years."
Coach Gary Kubiak called David Carr the "most improved" player on the team after minicamp season.
"I think David's going to have a great season," McNair said recently. "I think the new system fits him perfectly.

"David's been a class act despite experiencing some rough times and getting a lot of criticism. I think he's held up very well. And I think we'd all agree that David's tough, and he's got tremendous ability."
"I was excited about how David came back today," Kubiak said after Friday's practice. "I was concerned because you worry about how you come back the first day and how much you let go and all the work you did this summer.

"I thought David retained that well. His feet were good. His eyesight (vision) has to continue to get better, and I'm on him every day.

"He knew what was going on. There was no doubt what was happening. David picked up where he left off in the (offseason program."

Anything else? They probably were just being nice though.

LBC_Justin

08-08-2006, 08:55 PM

to me this confirms a few points.

1. Football is the ultimate team game. (Big Ben success is the product of the Steelers system, same as Carr is a product of the Texans system. O-line and a defense might has a itty bitty bit to do with success)

2. The Texans didn't take enough shots down field last year.

also....why does everyone make a big deal of Carr running out of bounds with the ball for a 1/2 yard loss and a sack. It is the same thing as an incomplete pass. Big deal.

To me last year wasn't about the high sack total. It was more the CONSTANT pressure Carr was under the whole game and the lack of pressure the opposing team's QB was under.

hollywood_texan

08-08-2006, 08:55 PM

[B]AND GUESS WHAT! 7 or 8 INTs were either tipped by his reciever or tipped at the line, GO back and watch if you think I am lying.

Tips at the line are Carr's fault.

Tips by the receivers that lead to interceptions are not Carr's fault.

Just a little to consider...

GP

08-08-2006, 09:11 PM

Well, I just got finished with the other Carr thread...

Looks like I found a new home for the next two weeks.

Just kidding.

I'll sit this one out...since all the anti-Carr guys are so high on parsing stats I guess this stat doesn't fit well into their little agenda.

2nd-best decision maker....this ought to get mauled. I'm not even going to check the previous 33 posts. I already know what's there....................

phan1

08-08-2006, 09:47 PM

I'm not really buying into this. Big Ben a bad decision maker? There's no way the steeler win w/o him. I know the Steelers had great talent around Ben, but Ben lead them to the Superbowl, and I don't understand the criticism against him all the time. Were the Steelers a Super-bowl calibure team before Ben? No. End of story. And I thought Carr has a history of not seeing the field very well. This is a load of BS.

Hulk75

08-08-2006, 09:48 PM

Tips at the line are Carr's fault.
Tips by the receivers that lead to interceptions are not Carr's fault.

Just a little to consider...

Tips at the line are great plays/smart plays by DLineman, that cant get to the QB/ for someone to get on here and tell me that knock downs are a QBs fault just shows me their football knowledge.

Read the entire thread before you just type stuff, I have a little experience with batting down footballs.

Sometimes its like teaching kids that have never played football before, it gives you a big headache after a while.

**** UNLESS ******* the QB throws the ball INTO the FACE of the DLineman or into his crouch it is not his fault, period thats it, no discussion, I am telling you from playing thats how it is.

I do, I consider the source every time you post.:cool:

Texanfan4ever

08-08-2006, 10:01 PM

I'm not really buying into this. Big Ben a bad decision maker? There's no way the steeler win w/o him. I know the Steelers had great talent around Ben, but Ben lead them to the Superbowl, and I don't understand the criticism against him all the time. Were the Steelers a Super-bowl calibure team before Ben? No. End of story. And I thought Carr has a history of not seeing the field very well. This is a load of BS.

Carr didn't see down the field very well, because he only had at best, 1 1/2 seconds and he was on his back. What is it you do not understand?

The Dude Abides

08-08-2006, 10:22 PM

I'm not really buying into this. Big Ben a bad decision maker? There's no way the steeler win w/o him. I know the Steelers had great talent around Ben, but Ben lead them to the Superbowl, and I don't understand the criticism against him all the time. Were the Steelers a Super-bowl calibure team before Ben? No. End of story. And I thought Carr has a history of not seeing the field very well. This is a load of BS.

Check his stats from the Super Bowl. They won that one with a terrible Ben.

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 10:38 PM

he made some poor decisions last year.

Bret has always made poor decisions..... never stopped him from being known as a winning QB......

bayoudreamn

08-08-2006, 10:40 PM

Bret has always made poor decisions..... never stopped him from being known as a winning QB......

I haven't watched him consistently enough to know, but isn't his reputation based on his leadership and clutch play more than every down performance?

infantrycak

08-08-2006, 10:41 PM

Bret has always made poor decisions..... never stopped him from being known as a winning QB......

And a big part of that was playing under coaches who were willing to take the risk and not stifle the good because of the bad--it was a synergy.

TwinSisters

08-08-2006, 10:42 PM

KC Joyner has been saying Carr is as good as Manning for three years now. And low and behold guess who endorses his products?

Charles Casserly.

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 10:55 PM

Tips at the line are great plays/smart plays by DLineman, that cant get to the QB/ for someone to get on here and tell me that knock downs are a QBs fault just shows me their football knowledge.

Read the entire thread before you just type stuff, I have a little experience with batting down footballs.

Sometimes its like teaching kids that have never played football before, it gives you a big headache after a while.

**** UNLESS ******* the QB throws the ball INTO the FACE of the DLineman or into his crouch it is not his fault, period thats it, no discussion, I am telling you from playing thats how it is.

I do, I consider the source every time you post.:cool:

Then enlighten us who have never played before.... what's the point in choosing passing lanes.... or having a high release, or trying to change a sidearm throwing motion??

infantrycak

08-08-2006, 11:11 PM

Then enlighten us who have never played before.... what's the point in choosing passing lanes.... or having a high release, or trying to change a sidearm throwing motion??

C'mon--take this out of the context of Carr and try to be objective about any old QB. Some knockdowns will be the "fault" of the QB if he throws it into an unengaged DLmen looking at him with time to reposition prior to being sacked. Some will be the ordinary gamble of trying to get the ball over a variety of engaged DLmen, one of whom manages to get a paw in the air at the right time and place. Remove the Carr agenda and it really is that simple--some can be avoided, some can't. The OLmen are also generally supposed to keep their guys engaged so they can't jump and that breaks down as well.

The primary problem with a sidearm delivery is inaccuracy left to right in addition to inaccuracy inherent to either on distance.

bayoudreamn

08-08-2006, 11:13 PM

Then enlighten us who have never played before.... what's the point in choosing passing lanes.... or having a high release, or trying to change a sidearm throwing motion??

It gives coaches something to do while they stand around in 110 degree heat wearing a sweatshirt.:shades:

infantrycak

08-08-2006, 11:18 PM

This is another example where the results from the theory should cause the writer to reconsider the methodology. No way you've got a valid methodology if it ranks Carr #2 in the league last year. I suspect if some weighted factor was added in to consider the yards per attempt or nature of the O being run you would find Carr (5.88 ypa) falling significantly and Big Ben rising significantly (8.9 ypa).

Man this is great--I get accused of being a Carr :homer: and having an anti-Carr agenda in the same week (Thanks Revolution for not bothering to read the MB much or heck even the whole thread but still feeling the urge to hit the negative rep button). Now I know I am on the right track if I am po'ing all the extremists.

phan1

08-08-2006, 11:21 PM

Carr didn't see down the field very well, because he only had at best, 1 1/2 seconds and he was on his back. What is it you do not understand?

I'm saying that either way, Carr can't be considered the 2nd best decision maker in the NFL. That stat just doesn't make sense. So even if you're right and he doesn't get a chance to see the field and make good decisions, but yet he's still listed #2? WTF. I guess taking a sack qualifies as a "good decision" rather than throwing it into tight coverage. If that's true than he should be by far the best decision maker to ever play the game. :sarcasm: I'm just sying that these stats don't make sense and is not a good measure of how good you're QB is. I'm a total Carr supporter, but I'm not a freakin idiot.

As for Big Ben, all I know is that there is a clear difference in the team when he's playing and when he's not. I guess that means that Maddox and Parker were just that terrible? He's listed as one of the worst decision makers, yet he's unquestionably going to be 'the man' for the Steeler for a very long time. Like I said, BOGUS STATS!

Kaiser Toro

08-08-2006, 11:25 PM

KC Joyner has been saying Carr is as good as Manning for three years now. And low and behold guess who endorses his products?

Charles Casserly.

Now where did you hear that? Are you suggesting that Cass subscribed to KC's service and filled the Texans roster like he would fill his fantasy team (the CASSanovas)?

thunderkyss

08-08-2006, 11:29 PM

C'mon--take this out of the context of Carr and try to be objective about any old QB. Some knockdowns will be the "fault" of the QB if he throws it into an unengaged DLmen looking at him with time to reposition prior to being sacked. Some will be the ordinary gamble of trying to get the ball over a variety of engaged DLmen, one of whom manages to get a paw in the air at the right time and place. Remove the Carr agenda and it really is that simple--some can be avoided, some can't. The OLmen are also generally supposed to keep their guys engaged so they can't jump and that breaks down as well.

The primary problem with a sidearm delivery is inaccuracy left to right in addition to inaccuracy inherent to either on distance.

Dude get off it...... my post has nothing to do with Carr........ like you, I'm saying sometimes it is the QBs fault....... sometimes, it is the DEs stellar play.

Same with a reciever tipping the ball....... sometimes the inaccurate QB led the recievers too much.... sometimes the reciever has concrete gloves, and sometimes there was a good play by a DB.

TK_Gamer

08-08-2006, 11:31 PM

right and I guess 90% of the country identifying Ben's SB performance as the worst by a winning team means as much as 90% of the coaches saying Carr is a top notch prospect in the mold of Marino/Elway. the naysayers will allways find ammo to contradict the experts, and find the magic stat that shows they are right.

infantrycak

08-08-2006, 11:31 PM

Dude get off it...... my post has nothing to do with Carr.......

Well then I sincerely apologize for the improper inference.

Wolf

08-08-2006, 11:34 PM

wonder why they didn't include stats on running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage? :heh: :stirpot:

seriously I am beginning to think stats are this

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104926/quotes
Jack Eliot: I'm a World Series MVP!
Skip: That was four years ago, Jack. Last season, you hit .235.
Jack Eliot: LAST SEASON, I led this team in ninth-inning doubles in the month of August!

HJam72

08-08-2006, 11:35 PM

Carr does a good job of limiting turnovers, considering what he's been through; but, that #2 ranking cannot be taken seriously. I feel like any ranking, no matter how good or bad, on him should have an asterisk beside it--badly coached, not protected, dropped balls, and yes, staring down receivers and taking sacks, instead of throwing it away.

I know that people don't want to hear this after 4 yrs., but, as far as I'm concerned, he gets a clean slate for one year. I'm gonna judge him almost completely on what happens from day one of training camp this year.

Vinny

08-08-2006, 11:35 PM

wow, when did the Carr jihad go down? Everyone is touchy about Carr lately...I won't give my opinion on this topic....this thread is enough of a disaster.

texan279

08-08-2006, 11:37 PM

wow, when did the Carr jihad go down? Everyone is touchy about Carr lately...I won't give my opinion on this topic....this thread is enough of a disaster.

:tv: Probably just because everyone has been without football for so long and it is now so close we can all taste it...:tease:

TwinSisters

08-08-2006, 11:41 PM

Now where did you hear that? Are you suggesting that Cass subscribed to KC's service and filled the Texans roster like he would fill his fantasy team (the CASSanovas)?

You fellas here have been using KC Joyner's stuff to prop Carr up.

Casserly's endorsement has been on the FS site for awhile.

I hear about fantasy players complaining about how KC did them wrong on Carr because they paid KC for the not so helpful help.

I wouldn't go so far as to say what Casserly does, I imagine it has more to do with what he learned in Washington then anything else.

BUT 'don't' think that coaches or personnel men 'don't' use statistics from "fantasy" football sites to aid their decision making process. Jim Schwartz uses techniques developed by Football Outsiders.
--

I am not dissing KC Joyner either. I am just saying he has endorsed Carr for at least three years. That can be good or bad. And Casserly endorses KC Joyner. That tends to be more bad then good.

Casserly has a lot of friends though too...

TK_Gamer

08-08-2006, 11:43 PM

wow, when did the Carr jihad go down? Everyone is touchy about Carr lately...I won't give my opinion on this topic....this thread is enough of a disaster.

I think the carr haters wanna get there last diggs in and most others dont wanna hear negatives to start the season. I dont really wanna hear it either. we had made some progress in the last week with some vanilla comments by some of the stronger carr critics, now the gloves are off again . just what we need as a team people , good work backing your team.

Vinny

08-08-2006, 11:44 PM

BUT 'don't' think that coaches or personnel men 'don't' use statistics from "fantasy" football sites to aid their decision making process. Football is not a sport like baseball where you can take stand alone stats and come to conclusions about talent. Football is one sport that must be eyeballed...and then you have to have people who know what they are looking at on top of it all.

Lucky

08-08-2006, 11:44 PM

(Thanks Revolution for not bothering to read the MB much or heck even the whole thread but still feeling the urge to hit the negative rep button)
You can afford a little negative rep. ;) Besides, you should know better than posting in a preseason David Carr thread.

Oops...I just broke my own rule. :slap:

How's this for :stirpot: I wonder if Joyner would consider the Carr 4th down pass to Bradford in the Jags game a "good" or "bad" decision?

Kaiser Toro

08-08-2006, 11:46 PM

You fellas here have been using KC Joyner's stuff to prop Carr up.

How did I wind up on this side of the debate?

This must be what chaos feels like. :goodbad:

TwinSisters

08-08-2006, 11:50 PM

well I mean in the past... not just this thread. If that was throwing it. I went back and saw it being pulled up in the Chicken Little epoch

infantrycak

08-08-2006, 11:50 PM

How's this for :stirpot: I wonder if Joyner would consider the Carr 4th down pass to Bradford in the Jags game a "good" or "bad" decision?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Lucky again.

:redtowel:

The Pencil Neck

08-09-2006, 12:17 AM

I didn't make this list so don't flame on me. Just posting what K.C. Joyner had to say. If you scroll down the list Carr is the second best decision maker behind only Tom Brady. I'm not saying I agree with what it says, I'm just posting it for the sake of argument.

This was on free ESPN insider.

Um... I'd like to see some of the components that went into this because it looks messed up to me. I'd like to see how many of each type of mistake were awarded to each QB. And if he missed 2 plays the year before... how do we know he didn't miss a bunch of other plays, too.

I like the fact that Carr doesn't throw a ton of interceptions. But he has taken sacks that he probably could have avoided, stared down some receivers, and made other mistakes. I'd like to see something at least moderately scientific that shows how many of those mistakes each QB made instead of some indefensible percentags. I would have expected Carr to be at the low end of the middle of the pack last year, not up at #2.

ArlingtonTexan

08-09-2006, 12:18 AM

Playing DE for I dont know 10+ years I have a good view of batted down balls, batted down balls are nobodys fault its a great play by the dlineman unless the guy is standing in front of you and the QB throws the ball in your face, that is the only time it is the QBs fault, Lord Help me! WR dropping balls, WRs fault thats it.

Not all football related? Not all football related!!!!!! This is the freaking NFL not pee wee buddy buddy 2 hands on the back football, if thought he could not cut it for any football reason he would not be here, if he was so bad as some of you say he would not have a job in the NFL right now, maybe as a back up!!!!! BUT guess what I guess a head coach that that has many Superbowl rings thought he has the stuuf to be one of the best.
Anyone want to take stab for the 1,000,000,000 time why he could not throw the ball deep and or down the middle last year?

Let me see what I can find:cool: ..............

Anything else? They probably were just being nice though.

Actually, pretty much on par with what i expected you to do. Slanted to fit an agenda, but not irresponsible. Fair enough, even though there are harser criticisms available.

Just for the record before you attempt to label, I said that I think Carr is a very similiar QB to Jake Plummer upwards of two years ago if not longer. There are "oldtimers" who could back me up on this. The good side is that Carr is tough guy with mobility who could do fine when coached well and surrounded by good players. He can put nice stats and not screw up a good thing. Bad side, I am not convinced Carr improves the players around him or understands how to make a play with his arm when the chips are down. Not convinced that ladder two things can be taught, but at least Kubiak is pretty high on the guys who I think have a chance to teach if they are. W

I generally, don't post in Carr threads because I have not changed this bit for two years and will not until he does something to move me one way or another. Don't think he sucks; don't think him to be great. More Just Another Guy capable of starting in the NFL and not embarrassing a team.

TexansLucky13

08-09-2006, 12:55 AM

wow, when did the Carr jihad go down? Everyone is touchy about Carr lately...I won't give my opinion on this topic....this thread is enough of a disaster.

Haha, yea this is definitely a chaos thread. I feel kinda bad for being in a weird mood earlier today and darting a swift one at infantrycak..... that is the root of this whole conflict. cak, I feel ya dude. As I said before, I know you aren't an anti-Carr dude. I still can't find that post that I was talking about though. Guess I will just have to apologize for "releasing the bull in the chinamans shop" (quote from Larry the Cable Guy). Shoulda known better than to post in a Carr thread again.... too much in one day.

The Dude Abides

08-09-2006, 08:47 AM

Boy, I sure am glad I started this thread. :fireball:

Hulk75

08-09-2006, 09:39 AM

C'mon--take this out of the context of Carr and try to be objective about any old QB. Some knockdowns will be the "fault" of the QB if he throws it into an unengaged DLmen looking at him with time to reposition prior to being sacked. Some will be the ordinary gamble of trying to get the ball over a variety of engaged DLmen, one of whom manages to get a paw in the air at the right time and place. Remove the Carr agenda and it really is that simple--some can be avoided, some can't. The OLmen are also generally supposed to keep their guys engaged so they can't jump and that breaks down as well.

The primary problem with a sidearm delivery is inaccuracy left to right in addition to inaccuracy inherent to either on distance.
What you said is perfect, perfect!

OLineman open passing lanes, the QB cant be worried about a lineman getting his hand up there, he just has to throw it, your right.

That goes for every QB in the league and any QB in the world.

Your right like I said and you said, If the QB clearly has a guy in front of him and throws the ball right at the guy then yes it is all on the QB, BUT when the DLineman gets his hand up and makes a great play, what can you do?

LBC_Justin

08-09-2006, 10:44 AM

You fellas here have been using KC Joyner's stuff to prop Carr up.

Casserly's endorsement has been on the FS site for awhile.

I hear about fantasy players complaining about how KC did them wrong on Carr because they paid KC for the not so helpful help.

I wouldn't go so far as to say what Casserly does, I imagine it has more to do with what he learned in Washington then anything else.

BUT 'don't' think that coaches or personnel men 'don't' use statistics from "fantasy" football sites to aid their decision making process. Jim Schwartz uses techniques developed by Football Outsiders.
--

I am not dissing KC Joyner either. I am just saying he has endorsed Carr for at least three years. That can be good or bad. And Casserly endorses KC Joyner. That tends to be more bad then good.

Casserly has a lot of friends though too...
I don't think he is endorsing Carr as much as Carr just so happens to rank high using his formula. Carr is a smart guy, smarter than Big Ben and Brett Farve. He plays smart, and he doesn't take very many risks....let me rephrase that....under the old coaching staff he was coached to not take risks, which went well with the "Keep it close" and "Play not to lose" mentality of the old staff. Had the Texans been gunning it down field I am sure he would have ranked some where near the middle of the road.

hollywood_texan

08-09-2006, 11:06 AM

Tips at the line are great plays/smart plays by DLineman, that cant get to the QB/ for someone to get on here and tell me that knock downs are a QBs fault just shows me their football knowledge.

Read the entire thread before you just type stuff, I have a little experience with batting down footballs.

Sometimes its like teaching kids that have never played football before, it gives you a big headache after a while.

**** UNLESS ******* the QB throws the ball INTO the FACE of the DLineman or into his crouch it is not his fault, period thats it, no discussion, I am telling you from playing thats how it is.

I do, I consider the source every time you post.:cool:

By your definition, it is rarely the QB's fault for a tipped ball at the line. How many times does a QB throw a ball that hits a lineman in the face or the crouch anyway?

I disagree with you on this.

The size of the quarterback and his technique are extremely critical in tipped balls at the line. Furthermore, a good defensive lineman as you described can take advantage of a smaller quarterback and/or poor technique and bat more balls down than normal. Therefore, the bigger the QB and the better technique, fewer batted balls.

Every QB is going to have batted balls, but the key is to keep it low.

Carr has had a problem with batted balls because of poor technique. In other words he has had too many batted balls.

Also, I gave you little one on tipped balls by the receiver. Some of those may be the QB's fault. For example, if the QB over or under throws (or maybe leaves the WR hanging out like laundry) the receiver, and the receiver makes an attempt to catch the ball but only tips it, that is the QB's fault. However, if the QB makes a throw right on the money and tipped or whatever, not the QB's fault.

IMO, the QB is 80% responsible for the play on offense (this is assuming adequate coaching and play calling, which Carr didn't have under Capers). The best offensive line, running backs, and receivers cannot overcome poor quarterback play.

thunderkyss

08-09-2006, 11:39 AM

What you said is perfect, perfect!

OLineman open passing lanes, the QB cant be worried about a lineman getting his hand up there, he just has to throw it, your right.

That goes for every QB in the league and any QB in the world.

Your right like I said and you said, If the QB clearly has a guy in front of him and throws the ball right at the guy then yes it is all on the QB, BUT when the DLineman gets his hand up and makes a great play, what can you do?

what he said does not agree with you.

IF I read him correctly, and the QB gambles and tries to throw the ball over a blocked lineman..... it was a bad decision by the QB....... great play by the DE, but the ball shouldn't have been thrown where the play could've been made at all.

santo

08-09-2006, 11:47 AM

Just out of curiosity, is it Delhomme's fault for this pass:

Play of any camp thus far? During one practice in Spartanburg, Delhomme dropped back, looked right and tried to dump a screen. The operative word here, however, is tried. Enter Pro Bowl DE Julius Peppers. This freak of nature extended his left arm, caught the ball in his left hand like he would a tennis ball and kept his arm extended straight as he took it back for what would have been an easy yet jaw-dropping TD. Just not fair. DEs aren't supposed to be able to do things like this.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5852122

this was taken from an article in msn sports page.

Just trying to understand if this would be a result of a quaterback making a mistake or a DE making a remarkable catch.

infantrycak

08-09-2006, 11:50 AM

what he said does not agree with you.

IF I read him correctly, and the QB gambles and tries to throw the ball over a blocked lineman..... it was a bad decision by the QB....... great play by the DE, but the ball shouldn't have been thrown where the play could've been made at all.

Naw you are reading it a little differently than intended. QB's very frequently throw over engaged DLmen--they have to or 75% of passes wouldn't be thrown at all. Sometimes the DLmen is going to get disengaged enough to make a play on the ball. IMO that isn't the fault of the QB because those kinds of chances have to be taken.

HT is right that technique does effect the odds on a ball getting batted down. Fact is a sidearm or semi-sidearm delivery is known when these guys get drafted so JMO that's part of the package on draft day and after than it isn't worth complaining about--it also isn't bad decision making IMO, it is simply the way they play. Carr was known as a semi-sidearm QB, so is VY and he will have his effective height reduced because of it. Rivers is even more sidearm and will have the same issue. IMO it doesn't reflect bad decision making for any of them.

thunderkyss

08-09-2006, 11:58 AM

The primary problem with a sidearm delivery is inaccuracy left to right in addition to inaccuracy inherent to either on distance.

:ok:

infantrycak

08-09-2006, 12:00 PM

:ok:

Hey you can prioritize them however you want. IMO it goes accuracy and then balls batted down. Accuracy effects all 400 attempts in a season. Sidearm may add 3-6 balls batted down a season.

Lucky

08-09-2006, 12:02 PM

HT is right that technique does effect the odds on a ball getting batted down.
And sometimes a QB needs to throw with a sidearm delivery to get a pass off. Brett Favre is a good example of a QB who can throw from multiple arm slots. In that case, it is a QB decision in how to release the pass without being deflected.

What hasn't been brought up is the responsibility of the offensive line to not only stop penetration, but to create passing lanes. An example of that would come from the Texans/Colts game in Indy, where the Colts O-line demolished the Texans defensive left front and allowed Manning to have perfect vision downfield on a TD pass to Harrison.

hollywood_texan

08-09-2006, 12:03 PM

Just out of curiosity, is it Delhomme's fault for this pass:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5852122

this was taken from an article in msn sports page.

Just trying to understand if this would be a result of a quaterback making a mistake or a DE making a remarkable catch.

Good example...

Looking forward to Mario Williams playing. By the way, Peppers could have been a Texan over Carr.

Back to the point though...

The issue of batted balls is how many times does it happen.

A QB is going to have batted balls just like a point guard is going to have turnovers. Minimizing the issue is what is at hand.

thunderkyss

08-09-2006, 01:10 PM

Hey you can prioritize them however you want. IMO it goes accuracy and then balls batted down. Accuracy effects all 400 attempts in a season. Sidearm may add 3-6 balls batted down a season.

I'm just saying when I mentioned sidearm delivery, you told me it was all about accuracy.... when he mentioned sidearm deliever, it was a factor in batting balls down....

that's all.

thunderkyss

08-09-2006, 01:13 PM

Just out of curiosity, is it Delhomme's fault for this pass:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5852122

this was taken from an article in msn sports page.

Just trying to understand if this would be a result of a quaterback making a mistake or a DE making a remarkable catch.

when the play is being described as"DEs aren't supposed to be able to do that"

it ain't the QBs fault.

infantrycak

08-09-2006, 01:15 PM

I'm just saying when I mentioned sidearm delivery, you told me it was all about accuracy.... when he mentioned sidearm deliever, it was a factor in batting balls down....

that's all.

No, I said what I just did--primarily. Accuracy IMO is the primary reason to have an classic delivery instead of a sidearm delivery. Wasn't trying to totally contradict you, just point out there was a more primary concern.

thunderkyss

08-09-2006, 01:19 PM

No, I said what I just did--primarily. Accuracy IMO is the primary reason to have an classic delivery instead of a sidearm delivery. Wasn't trying to totally contradict you, just point out there was a more primary concern.

whatever...... we were talking about balls batted down...... I brought up a factor... you went off on a tangent, or decided to attack my football knowledge..... again....

infantrycak

08-09-2006, 01:23 PM

whatever...... we were talking about balls batted down...... I brought up a factor... you went off on a tangent, or decided to attack my football knowledge..... again....

Attack your football knowledge? You asked a question.

Then enlighten us who have never played before.... what's the point in choosing passing lanes.... or having a high release, or trying to change a sidearm throwing motion??

Look it is even a double question mark question. You want to explain how answering your emphatic question was a tangent?

Hulk75

08-09-2006, 01:28 PM

By your definition, it is rarely the QB's fault for a tipped ball at the line. How many times does a QB throw a ball that hits a lineman in the face or the crouch anyway?

I disagree with you on this.

The size of the quarterback and his technique are extremely critical in tipped balls at the line. Furthermore, a good defensive lineman as you described can take advantage of a smaller quarterback and/or poor technique and bat more balls down than normal. Therefore, the bigger the QB and the better technique, fewer batted balls.

Every QB is going to have batted balls, but the key is to keep it low.

Carr has had a problem with batted balls because of poor technique. In other words he has had too many batted balls.

Also, I gave you little one on tipped balls by the receiver. Some of those may be the QB's fault. For example, if the QB over or under throws (or maybe leaves the WR hanging out like laundry) the receiver, and the receiver makes an attempt to catch the ball but only tips it, that is the QB's fault. However, if the QB makes a throw right on the money and tipped or whatever, not the QB's fault.

IMO, the QB is 80% responsible for the play on offense (this is assuming adequate coaching and play calling, which Carr didn't have under Capers). The best offensive line, running backs, and receivers cannot overcome poor quarterback play.
You disagree with me?

I got a scholorship to play Definsive Line for 4 years. Had tryouts with pro teams and now play for a semi pro team and what I am telling you is wrong?, you dont agree.
Wether you agree with me or not, the way I said it, is the way it ACCTUALLY is on the field not what you think you see from the stands, I have played down on the line and still do, so when guys tell me "No your wrong"(about a possition I have played my whole life), Its like telling a pilot he does not know how to fly a plane.

And your right, taller QBs have less of a chance getting it knocked down, BUT as I said Offensive lineman are the ones that open passing lanes or SHOULD if they do there job, and when a DLineman jumps up for a ball the OLine is taught to put the DLineman on his back so they do not try it again.
Trust me QBs last thought is the DLinemans hands hitting the ball, he is watching the coverage, he should have 5 guys in front of him taking care of the rest.

thunderkyss

08-09-2006, 01:46 PM

Attack your football knowledge? You asked a question.

Look it is even a double question mark question. You want to explain how answering your emphatic question was a tangent?

ok....... you're right....... I've got to start using the :sarcasm: thing a little more often.

I honestly didn't expect an answer...... so I'm sure you can understand my surprise when I got one, and it wasn't the one I was looking for.

the poster I had quoted in that post was stating his opinion that balls batted down are never the fault of the QB.

I should've just came out and said...... "QBs are taught to utilize passing lanes, and release the ball high to increase passing effeciency, and avoid batted down balls."

my fault, once again excuse me.

hollywood_texan

08-09-2006, 01:48 PM

You disagree with me?

I got a scholorship to play Definsive Line for 4 years. Had tryouts with pro teams and now play for a semi pro team and what I am telling you is wrong?, you dont agree.
Wether you agree with me or not, the way I said it, is the way it ACCTUALLY is on the field not what you think you see from the stands, I have played down on the line and still do, so when guys tell me "No your wrong"(about a possition I have played my whole life), Its like telling a pilot he does not know how to fly a plane.

And your right, taller QBs have less of a chance getting it knocked down, BUT as I said Offensive lineman are the ones that open passing lanes or SHOULD if they do there job, and when a DLineman jumps up for a ball the OLine is taught to put the DLineman on his back so they do not try it again.
Trust me QBs last thought is the DLinemans hands hitting the ball, he is watching the coverage, he should have 5 guys in front of him taking care of the rest.

I agree with you that it is offensive line's job to create some passing lanes as designed by the play. It is the QB's job to find those lanes and use them.

This is what I said, "Every QB is going to have batted balls, but the key is to keep it low."

Some QBs have more batted balls than others. To get the number down to a reasonable/manageable level, certain techinques are coached.

I don't have the stats on Carr and batted balls, but it seems he has more than the average in the league. Please let me know if observation is incorrect.

Getting to the average or a little lower is what I am saying. Which is what is what should be expected from Carr. I look at this batted ball thing similarily to a point guard in basketball related to turnovers. They are going to happen, but certain techniques and training can minimize the situations.

By the way, good luck in your quest!

I mean that sincerely...

infantrycak

08-09-2006, 02:42 PM

I don't have the stats on Carr and batted balls, but it seems he has more than the average in the league. Please let me know if observation is incorrect.

Carr is at the high end but not egregiously out of line like Sims. Given that for you are looking at a range of 5-15 for most QB's getting him down a point or two is 1-3 extra batted balls.

Would you consider batted balls more of an O-line problem or QB problem ?

infantrycak

08-09-2006, 03:09 PM

Would you consider batted balls more of an O-line problem or QB problem ?

No way of quanitfying--I'd say this is one of those times stats will give you an idea of the overall magnitude of the problem combined and an idea of which teams are outliers. If you wanted to try to examine it more closely, seems to me you would have to put eyes on film. Doesn't surprise me at all that a smart QB plus good OL (Indy) results in a very low batted down rate.

real

08-09-2006, 03:12 PM

No way of quanitfying--I'd say this is one of those times stats will give you an idea of the overall magnitude of the problem combined and an idea of which teams are outliers. If you wanted to try to examine it more closely, seems to me you would have to put eyes on film. Doesn't surprise me at all that a smart QB plus good OL (Indy) results in a very low batted down rate.

O.k...I get you...When i played in college my coach always said blamed it on us(the o-line) but he was an idiot...

infantrycak

08-09-2006, 03:14 PM

O.k...I get you...When i played in college my coach always said blamed it on us(the o-line) but he was an idiot...

I wouldn't be surprised if he was also telling the QB's they were all their fault--out of your hearing of course.