The Tactic of Confusion by a Master Puppeteer

So I was perusing the Fox Forums, as I like to do, much to the dismay of Bob the Builder, who doesn’t like intelligent conversation to happen unless he sets the standards. And I ran across an article by Glenn Beck. If you don’t know who he is, you should. The guy is hilarious. He is also a bit of a fear monger and is prone to going off on tangents. But he is effective and he has the pulse of Americans pretty well measured. HE is angry these days, but his anger manifests as honesty, good or bad. He wrote a piece about Obama being a mad genius. I wanted to echo his thoughts here because they were dead on….

The bottom line here is this: While the tactics that I will describe here are nothing new in politics, every President has used them to some extent, we are seeing one of the best at it. It is like watching Jordan in his prime. Or being able to say you watched Babe Ruth live. We are getting to see one of the best manipulators of our time live and in person. Now I get that he is my President, but I stated up front that I was going to be watching and be critical when I saw things I didn’t like. Well after only a month in office I have seen plenty.

You may have noticed lately that there have been a ton of things coming down the pike nearly every day. We saw an absolute flurry of Presidential Orders flying out of the White house during the first week Obama was in office. And it hasn’t slowed down. You can literally check the news hourly for a new bold thing from this administration that will piss you off. And that is by design folks. Just like a magician who has so much going on at once you can’t watch it all, he is keeping your eyes were he wants them while he does what he really wants to do with the other hand.

Just think about what we are seeing. With this much stuff coming out every day even someone as politically savvy and dedicated as me has trouble keeping up. Every day has somewhere between 4 and 10 different big things coming out of Washington. I don’t have time to write a blog post on 4-10 things a day. And he is counting on it. With so many bad things coming out we cannot focus on one thing and raise an organized objection to anything. Our attention is divided and we end up confused and overwhelmed. Just from yesterday’s news:

Congress passed a $410 Billion dollar bill with 8,570 earmarks

Barbara Boxer began pushing for ratification of a UN treaty that would undermine US sovereignty. The treaty which espouses protecting children, basically puts our education system at the mercy of some international group. The treaty creates “the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion” and outlaws the “arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy,” intrudes on the family and strips parents of the power to raise their children without government interference.

The Senate passed a bill which would give Washington DC a voting member in the US House of Representatives. We discussed this issue a couple of weeks ago. Just like that the Democrats got it through by adding to the bill an amendment eliminating the fairness doctrine. Bribed the Republicans and did it.

Simultaneously Democratic Senator Dick Durbin introduced legislation that would require racial equality in radio station ownership. Affirmative action for radio station ownership now?

The House voted to kill a resolution calling for an ethics investigation into potential quid pro quo between lobbyist campaign donations and lawmakers. This was the PMA investigation mentioned in last night’s post

The House passed a bill outlawing the transportation across state lines of primates as pets.

Obama announced his third selection for the post of Commerce Secretary.

And there was much more. I just didn’t want to take up the whole post making my point. I could have written on any one of those things yesterday. But by having so much out there, the Democrats make sure our heads are spinning too fast to address any one of them.

And let us be clear about what is going on here. I know that no one likes it when people throw around terms like socialism and communism. It seems like a name calling attack. But that is exactly where we are heading. This isn’t crying wolf or fear mongering. Barrack Obama was named the most liberal Senator just prior to running for President and then went out there and convinced the nation that he was in the middle. A centrist interested only in saving us.

But in just one month we have seen the biggest expansion of government power and spending in history. A white House report said the deficit this year will top 1.5 Trillion. That is over three times higher than any year in history. And the Democrats are just getting started. They are throwing around more expansion of government left and right in Washington and aren’t even really trying to hide it. Some choice quotes from the big folks in government these days:

“It’s not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too. My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody … I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.” Barack Obama to Joe the Plumber

“This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that open markets have created, and share its benefits more equitably. Trade has been a cornerstone of our growth and global development. But we will not be able to sustain this growth if it favors the few, and not the many.” Barack Obama

“We’ve got to make sure that people who have more money help the people who have less money. If you had a whole pizza, and your friend had no pizza, would you give him a slice” Barack Obama

“The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more.” Michelle Obama

“What is more important is to find means by which we can redistribute our economic gains to the benefit of all. This is the government’s obligation.” Barack Obama

“We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to communism, but we can aid their elected leaders in giving them small doses of socialism until they suddenly awake and find they have communism.” Nikita Khrushcev

Obama has gone on record many times saying that he believes in the redistribution of income in America. He is playing that card over and over. Take it from the people who have it and give it to the people who don’t. I remember the speech he made during the campaign where he actually first used the words “income redistribution”. One of my co-workers came in the next day and said I cannot believe he actually came right out and said those words. Income Redistribution. That, my friends, is the very definition of socialism. This isn’t fear mongering. This is a recognition of what is going on. We cannot ignore it any longer.

If you don’t want to end up as a socialist country, then you need to join the revolution now. We have got to start hammering this down the throats of those who aren’t paying attention. The master puppeteer is playing everything in just the right way to engineer the very socialist agenda that made his peers call him the most far left member of the Senate. I don’t like sounding like a conspiracy guy. But this isn’t a conspiracy. He has always said he wanted a country that resembled socialism. He changed that tune when he ran for President. It looks like he only pressed the mute button for a couple months. Now that tune is blaring once again.

Comments

I have seen this coming for DECADES! I have had arguments with some very close friends about Jimmy Carter, Bill and Hillary Clinton, and way before them George McGovern! You are a breath of fresh air, my friend, and I am so glad that there is someone else who is looking at these events with eyes wide open!

“We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to communism, but we can aid their elected leaders in giving them small doses of socialism until they suddenly awake and find they have communism.” Nikita Khrushcev

That statement was made a very long time ago. Now we are on the brink . . . .

Your words could not ring more true. It is a sad state of affairs when a free country such as ours turns toward Marxism/Communism and it is not even a hidden agenda. The current administration is blantant with their beliefs of “spread the wealth”. The only thing they don’t do is come right out and say I am a communist!

There are too many folks these days that believe the government owes them something. It never ceases to amaze me. The government wants you to believe that to keep you dependent on them…it is job security for them, and the number of government jobs keeps growing while in the private sector they shrink. It is a self defeating philosophy, and I for one cannot fathom why anyone would not be able to see it.

No president in my lifetime has had a philosophical aversion to socialism. The only debate was how fast to implement it, and which segements of society to target first. You are right, though. No matter how loudly people howl, it isn’t wrong to call a socialist a socialist or a nazi a nazi.

Obummer’s stategy is to swamp us with new bills and laws to keep us off balance so he can get his socialist agenda moving. If we don’t watch and keep up with this we’re going to wake up pretty soon and our rights and priviledges as Americans are going to be gone. Once this crap is in we will never get it back! Let’s pray to God for this nation and also take political steps to see that this atrocity doesn’t happen.

Reagan said that Americans would never accept Communism (Socialism) by that name, but would accept it and welcome it in the name of Liberalism. That is what we are witnessing in some part.

But, there is more and more a growing dissent against these policies, such as Tea Party rallies. This “blitzkrieg” is upsetting people in so many ways. Not just in the policies, but by pushing the citizenry this fast, they feel unbalanced and begin to sense that something is not right. A unsettled citizenry can be VERY dangerous. We, as a nation and a citizenry, need to speak out and have our voices heard without going too far and pushing the nation to the brink of anarchy. I believe that is exactly what the “Far Left” wants to do. They “may” want to make the Right, so mad we go too far, and that would give the “government” the reason to take more our rights, freedoms, and liberties. We must stay vigilant even though he is purposely trying to overwhelm us.

More disturbing than what Obama is doing, is how many Americans actually WANT this crap! It fritghening! How do you stop it when you’re so out numbered? Those of us who not on board with ‘Change’ are becoming targets. They are afraid. I am too. I’ve had a few frieds warn me to be very careful of what I say about Obama. Let me add that what I say about Obama is nothing like what Obama supporters were saying about Pres. Bush. Nothinkg like it at all. I’m waiting to hear some more about the FEMA camps. I don’t want to find myself in one though. When violence breaks out, I’m guessing that’s when people will be sent off…..

The American political system has been soft-core fascist for almost a century. Liberals love to call conservatives fascists.

The problem is, the liberals are right.

Of course, well-informed conservatives like to call liberals fascists, and they are correct, too.

Everyone who believes in the efficiency of the so-called government-business alliance is a fascist.

Most people do not understand the difference between fascism and Communism. Fascism: State-run capitalism.

We are now seeing what hard-core liberals always predicted would happen: the economic convergence of the two systems, USA and USSR. The system of economic convergence is fascism. That was what the liberals always wanted, but called it something else: “economic democracy” or “the government-business alliance.”

I see that you (and Beck) agree with me. That makes it twice, right, USWep?

I have been making this point on my blog since last October, but I never expected that this guy would act so rapidly to execute his vision for America. It is frightening. And yes, confusing. So confusing that people have no time or ability to wrap their heads around the concepts and the numbers, never mind the fact that half of Obama’s initiatives are cloaked in secrecy or are achieved through back-door measures that never see the light of day until they are made into law. This guy is sinister, shrewd, and manipulative, and I think strings of the Puppet Master are being pulled from places he’d rather we did not know about. With that said, What are we going to do about it? I’m looking for ideas, besides tea parties and calling legislators, which are great. But we need more to stop this guy before the Titanic sinks. We need a General to rally and coalesce the troops, and put a plan into action. I don’t think conservatives are good at that; too much focus on the rule of law. Look at black communities; they rally in huge numbers (with their old standby generals, Sharpton and Jackson) when someone makes an offensive comment! And here we are nattering away while our country is being destroyed by the enemy within. What are we going to do about it?

I just get tired of reading all the nonsensical ramblings of BF. I am not bitter, except with the currant state of affairs in my once great nation of freedom.

“We The People” ARE the government of these United States of America. WTP have become a government of complacency, WTP have allowed our employees (politicians) to take over our business, empty our wallets, invade our bedrooms, and tell us how to raise our children. All WTP do is say “Oh well, that is what the government wants and government knows what is best for us…”

BS!

I have fought for this country, and I will not sit back and let some Socialist imbecile ruin what I fought and damn near died for!

BF seems to think all we have to do is ignore Obummer and he will go away. Wrong. Try standing in the midst of a pack of hungry alligators and just ignore them, or as BF says, just try and step out of their way. Do that and you will very quickly become alligator feces.

WTP cannot and should not ignore government. WTP are the government, now WTP needs to step up to the helm and do what those who designed the Constitution meant for us to do. Anything less is just national suicide!

What do you think would be the real-world results of enforcing Constitutional limits on the Rulers? And I am not talking about asking politely by “working within the system” unless you really think that can still work.

Unless I miss my guess you are an educator. Sam was right. However, I have heard of “The Silent Majority” for quite some time now. What has happened is that WTP have been split up into so many small categories (ie; upper, lower, middle income & classes, white collar, blue collar workers, left, moderate, & right wingers, etc, etc.) that there is no more “Silent Majority”. USW is right. WTP need to get vocal, loud, and in their face, and PDQ or we will no longer be WTP!

“The only reason a government needs to disarm its citizens, is because that government fears its armed citizens” – “Armed citizens are just that = Citizens. Unarmed citizens are subjects of their government.” – “Once you remove the Bill of Rights, you control the American Citizen.”

I have heard or read those quotes somewhere in my long past, but I cannot remember who said them. They do have a ring of truth about them.

It is high time “We The People” re-took our rightful place in our Once Great Nation . . . (apologies for the bad grammer)

Somebody with that intro to their website can’t be all that bad . . . 😉

Looked up the NRCC. Not to sure that would be the answer. Having known quite a few Lawyers – Some of them Libertarians – I believe Impeachment is one way to get their attention. Even making it public that a group of people are exploring that possibility might even wake others up to the smell of the garbage pile.

I think the only real weakness of impeachment is that it relies upon the other governmental folks to carry it out. They tend to protect their own too much for my hopes to be raised. I think it may take many different tactics coming at them from every direction. Kinda like what they have been doing to us.

G.A. – I love reading (or watching History Channel shows) about UFO sightings and all that stuff, and know people who have seen things that, when described by them, seem beyond explanation. However, I strongly suspect all the sightings have regular, natural explanations if the opportunity to get a better look had presented itself.

What was it one of your famous football coaches stated: “they are who we thought they were…….and we let ’em off the hook”

I must really scratch me head to wonder what exactly it is you keep bitching about. You listened to what Mr. Obama said he was going to do………and…….now you’re bitching about him doing it? It is rather silly to think that whether you call it Republican or Democrat, the U.S. has ling held social policies that border on or are outright (drum roll please) – dare we say (ahem) socialist? The funny thing is – all this bullshit revolution spew that keeps spitting up on this board smells and looks like elements of marxist socialism. You’ve just been trained to equate socialism to communism (they are NOT the same thing) and within socialism itself to recognize the redeeming principles in it. Finally – much of the positive things the U.S. has accomplished was due in some part to the outcome of income redistribution – what comes across in this posting is a stench of NIMBY – you should be proud of the fact there is a man in the White House with the nutsack to call it like it is – the ‘messiah’ you so derisively decry was the Bible-thumping liar that will be judged in history as one of the worst leaders in all of history.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, what your remarks sound like to me are someone who is OK with the move towards socialism. I am not OK with that move. I don’t think most Americans are OK with that move. The only ones that seem to be OK with it are those who have not and have been promised by the chosen one that he will take it from that haves and give it to them.

You are correct on one count. He is exactly who I said he was and who I thought he was a long time ago. I tried to warn people and they told me “no, he is a middle of the road guy”. Now the egg is clearly on their face. So I raised the flag then. When he won, as a long time lurker you know this, I did my best to defend him and give him a chance. If you haven’t read so, go back and check me out. But now the moves are being made that I was afraid of.

And what I didn’t hear was any rebuke of my claims about Obama. Which means that you obviously know that I am not talking out of my ass when I say he is very much on the socialist side. But you are OK with that. And that is fine, if America as a whole is OK with it, he’ll be just fine. But I don’t think they are. I think they feel like they got fooled by a guy who claimed to be middle of the road.

As for your comments about Bush. Hogwash. YOU should be proud that Bush was the only man in the White House who had the nutsack to call it like it was. Obama panders to the polls. Bush simply did what he thought was the right move, regardless of what people thought of it. He will have a much better position in history than the Bush-haters like you think he will have. Was he a horrible leader? You bet. Horrible because he did not inspire people to his vision. However he was also a President that did what was necessary even though he didn’t have the ability to rally people around it. This whole “bible Thumping liar” bit that I hear from liberals is hoo ha. What was it he lied about? WMD’s? Go ahead and challenge me on that one, I spent plenty of time in that desert. He didn’t lie, the media and the Democrats did, and you obviously fell for it (and apparently missed the videos of him using them on his own people in northern Iraq). Better yet, 9/11 was an inside job, right? What was the lie? And when you bring it, you better back it up with facts, not media babble or Nancy Pelosi drivel. I never once felt the effects of him “bible Thumping” and I would have noticed because of my personal beliefs. The worst part in this is you forcing me to defend a President that I didn’t even like that much. But I sure am tired of the media led attacks on him from folks who have absolutely zero idea what they are talking about.

And you are right the country, on both sides of the aisle, has made more socialist like moves. Both parties are guilty as charged. I don’t claim either party as my own any longer. I am simply an American that is not happy with the direction we are heading. You don’t like the revolution, don’t sign up. We aren’t interested in people who are led by the media or who are prone to jumping in and dropping bombs without discussing the matter anyway. This is a blog for those who want to have honest discussions about the issues and intelligently debate the best course forward for our country. Go back and read again my post about my version of a revolution. Where was the socialism in what I suggested? It sounded to me like I talked about educating people on what the realities were and engaging them in dialogue that brings people together and finds compromises. If that were socialism, I would be all for it.

Finally, your argument about income redistribution was silly at best. Name one thing that income redistribution has done that a truly free market couldn’t have done better. And know before you muster the courage to debate that one that I won’t even have to answer, BlackFlag and Kent are going to eat your lunch for you. I don’t oppose all government, just one getting this big and powerful. Everyone loves income redistribution right up until the point that it is your land or money the government comes for. I look forward to your replies, that is if you have the nutsack of your President and are willing to debate them.

BF seems to think all we have to do is ignore Obummer and he will go away. Wrong.

Yep, you’re wrong.

I did not say to ignore Obama.

Likewise, I did not say to ignore Bush.

I said, ignore government – all of them, no matter what color shirt they wear.

There is a very important difference, G.A. – as long as you participate in the system, you agree with it.

The difference between you and me is simple.

You think your guys are right, and their guys are wrong.

You do not think that those guys think you are wrong and that they are right.

Neither of you think the system is wrong.

So, both sides (where you are one side) are in a infinite tug-of-war over who has the right to beat the other over the head.

Me, I’m simply avoiding this game – because I believe neither of you have the right to beat anyone over the head.

Try standing in the midst of a pack of hungry alligators and just ignore them, or as BF says, just try and step out of their way. Do that and you will very quickly become alligator feces.

Hmm, no. They don’t bother you.

But if you think you can wrestle with them … well, go ahead and try!

(PS: Don’t try – you will lose something)

DOING NOTHING IS THE SAME AS GIVING THEM PERMISSION!

In some things, yes – not speaking is the same as agreeing.

….except in systems where participation equals consent, like government.

There, simply participating means you agree with the system but (very important, so please re-read) not necessarily the outcome.

Think about a baseball game, to simplify the environment.

To play the game, you agree to a certain set of rules – one of them is that the umpire has the final say.

By simply playing the game, you’ve agreed to the all the umpire’s decisions – before he makes a single decision!

You may dispute the umpire decision on a particular play; you may be incredibly disappointed, angry, livid, outraged…. but it doesn’t matter because you’ve all ready agreed to the system by playing the game that says the umpire is always right, even when you know he is wrong.

However, if you don’t agree to playing the game, no matter what the umpire says simply doesn’t matter.

So if you do not agree to the system – by not participating – you do not agree to the decisions of the umpire.

Life of Illusion

It seems to me that Flag just likes to argue & debate.

Hi,Illusion (nice moniker!)

Yes, I do.

Most people have no understanding of the principles they defend with their lives.

They typically are shocked that they are committing their lives to evil – because they are real good people who would never support evil at all.

Sadly, though, when faced with the truth that they are defending evil vs. the illusion of their faith – they chose faith.

But, rarely, someone snaps out of their illusion when they are blasted by the 2×4 of truth across their forehead.

USW: Have you checked out the Libety Caucus of the Republican Party? I bring this up because of our prior discussion and your comments about running for mayor and revolutions dilemna of how to run, and other comments. What if we didn’t worry about a party and focused our efforts as a coalition or caucus if you will? We recruit, run, and support candidates from any party who sign on to our principles and take the pledge of course.
This might be a way to slow the bleeding until the needed long term changes can be made. And I hate to be the one to bring this up but we are going to need a heap load of money.

By the way, could you share the specifics of what it was you told the black leaders that swayed them to at least concede they could support you for Mayor.

Mr. Weapon ~ the U.S. should thank the good voters of California for Ms. Pelosi – you need more of her.

On the points randomly:

1. Income redistribution – you’re a vet so you already know this – immature as it may be, the VA hospitals are often the care of last resort for soldiers that are crippled mentally and physically (and ironically from an illegal war). You should offer to pay more taxes to support your fallen brethren. I never served and I volunteer my time and money at the VA 5 miles from my house because it sickens me and breaks my poor liberal heart to see broken men that use the change they begged for that morning to take the bus to the VA wearing clothes stained with their own pee and feces because the market sure as shit cannot make a buck off these guys. Tell me how that one tastes after you put in your pipe and smoke it.

2. WMD – oh please with this bullshit. The U.S. should be ashamed that it sends one of its great soldiers and leaders (Gen. Powell) to lie to the entire world. Yes – Saddam gassed the Kurds. Yes it had chem and bio – but the war criminals that were in the White House that had such a hard on to take on Saddam cooked the books on that one. What happened to the mobile weapons labs we were supposed to find? We didn’t find shit and you know it. The real WMD’s are sitting on our soil right in Frederick, MD. – I know – I used to work there.

3. Socialism – my point was we have been socialist culturally, industrially, socially and in our own government. This isn’t new! I belly laugh every time I read you guys whining about this – we’re already there! We’ve been ‘there’ since before ‘The Jungle’! Obama is the best thing that could have happened to the U.S.! America is fine with it! Americans are finally ‘getting it’ – that little piggy in the corner that was convinced that pure capitalism was the way to go was wrong – now he must become bacon, sausage, chops and roast – and he will taste good. My biggest worry would be that what Obama implements does not go far enough or permanently change the way it all works.

The revolution is the one this great and true President is leading – one that calls for sacrifice that apparently people such as yourself are not willing to make, but still want the right to bitch about how screwed the whole country is. The truth my friend is dog’s balls – plain and simple.

We certainly don’t need any more hypocrite big mouths like Pelosi. But your saying so says it all to me.

1. It is not an illegal war, that is your media representation at work. But it is good to see you make that statement. Like the Pelosi statement it lets us know where you are getting your information. I don’t need you to tell me anything about a VA hospital, and I certainly don’t need you to tell me how to support my fallen brethren. But I will support them in many more ways than volunteering at the VA clinic. Let me start supporting them by standing up for what they stood up for, and what you refuse to stand up for, a country that isn’t socialist in nature. I stand for a country where our elected representatives represent the people instead of the agenda of a few wingnuts like you. The best part is that people like you think that you are “doing something”. People like me go off and serve our country and go further and do something like this site where we discuss ways to make our country better. People like you go to the soup kitchen, serve some bowls up, talk about the “horrors you have seen”, and claim to have done something for your country, for those vets. You haven’t done shit, you haven’t seen shit, and why don’t you try telling some of those vets your crackpot theories and see how they feel about it. I would tell you to put that in your pipe and smoke it but it is obvious you have had a few too much already.

2. WMD- Oh please with this bullshit is right. You watch CNN and they feed you a line and you buy it hook, line, and sinker. Use some common sense man. He had WMD’s. You can admit that he used them on the kurds. You can admit that he had chems and bio’s, and then you follow that up with Bush “cooked the books”. Talk about naive. You think Saddam just destroyed them all and decided to play nice from now on? Where are the mobile weapons labs? You ever been to that desert genius? You could bury the Pentagon in that desert and not find it for 100 years with a map. And you think they couldn’t bury a few mobile trucks out there in the middle of nowhere? Dude there are seven planes that have gone down in the great northwest in America that have never been found… ever. Not buried, not on foreign soil. Crashed right here in an area half the size of the Iraqi desert. Never found. And even if used your magic sifter and checked every acre of sand out there for the next 200 years, they could have just as easily been driven into Iran, Syria, Jordan, anywhere. On the flip side there are people who know they were there, and you know it too, but cannot admit that or it would destroy the little bubble you live in. And you don’t know shit about Frederick, MD. Cause there are a whole bunch of us reading here who are from that area. You didn’t used to work there and you don’t know anything about what you are talking about. If you are going to lie about “what you know”, check your facts. The US bio/chem projects are housed and stored in MD, but not Frederick, and not even close to there. Go do a better google search for your info about where you “used to work”.

3. No, lazy Americans are “getting it”. Their best hope for survival as they know it is to get government to take it from someone else. I hope you do belly laugh when you hear us “whine” about it. I hope you are still laughing when what we are writing here comes to pass as well. That little socialist in the corner that was convinced that Americans wanted them was wrong, and he apparently failed to study history. Even people as good as the puritans were not able to make your form of government work. If fails…. EVERY time. And because it fails, and furthermore because people with your mentality belong in fundamentalist compound, I will continue to rally my troops and fight it. And so will America. You are just like Pelosi and Obama in one way, you actually have yourself convinced that everyone is behind you. They aren’t. You are like that off-key Idol contestant that curses Simon for giving them the boot and comes out to the camera and tells America that they just lost the best contestant in the group. The French thought the people were behind them too, right up until they revolted. What an illusionary world you live in. You will all be shocked when you realize the err of your ways.

You are right, the chosen one is leading a revolution. But he will fail. And he will especially fail when the rest of America wakes up and realizes what he is doing. People like you never will. You were meant to be led. And you always will be. By the media, by a great speech, and by a party that has led a great deception but who has overstepped their bounds rather quickly. The Democratic party will fall very hard on their faces soon, just as the Republicans did. And then people like me and the readers here will rise. And you know what… you will follow us too. Because you don’t know any other way. You have lost the ability to think for yourself.

Two last points. First, as I guessed you would, you failed to give a single example of what income redistribution accomplished that a truly free and capitalist market couldn’t have done better. Second, you made the statement “one that calls for sacrifice that apparently people such as yourself are not willing to make, but still want the right to bitch about how screwed the whole country is”. Watch your tone. I have served my country. And have made more sacrifice in doing so than lapdogs like you will make in your lifetime. And so has every other veteran from G.A. to BlackFlag. What have you ever done for your country? So check that little piece of attitude at the door. You get to run off at the mouth and be as ignorant as you are about reality because of people like me. So don’t you EVER tell me about what sacrifice I am not willing to make. And because I have made it I earned the right to bitch about whatever the hell I want to bitch about. Especially when what I am bitching about is how non-educated and media led cronies like you are attempting to ruin the country. Belly laugh all you want. Your time is running out. The people have had enough, so chuckle and tell your friends “let them eat cake” for a little bit longer. But not much.

Apparently there are nuts at both extremes and you’re no exception. Income redistro has proven ineffective in almost all cases – my parents worked as civies in DoD almost their entire lives and can attest to the almost fraudulent waste that occurs with what the GOV is given – how does giving them more money solve the problem? (Let me guess – your day job is with the gov isn’t it?)

PLEASE go down to Florida and visit an alligator farm during feeding time.

Guy;

You sound like someone I used to know. He called GWB a dictator. Socialism raised its ugly head in the US right after the `29 crash, when FDR shoved his NEW DEAL up our rectums. We have been paying for it ever since. If you love Communism so much, please go visit The Peoples Republic of China sometime soon. Not Hong Kong or Beijing. Follow a path up the river from that new huge dam that they just built. Talk to the people who lost their ancestral homes due to relocation. Ask them if they can actually buy property to build new homes on. You need to learn about Communism from those who are FORCED to live under that form of government, not from your nutcase cronies in Berkely CA., They are way too stoned to know what they are talking about.

I am a Viet Nam Veteran. I know what Communists do to people, towns and villages that do not support them. They make what Hitler did to the Jews look like childs play. So take your beloved Communism and shove it right where the sun don’t shine. As long as I live and breath, I will not let that happen to my country!

Have you ever been treated in a VA Hospital? Sorry, I see you have never served. You do realize that the government runs all VA hospitals and clinics.

Most of my family members are veterans and current enlistees from all branches of the Armed Forces.

We spent the last 20 years of my husband’s father’s life arguing with the VA about his treatments. He was a Marine.

The last place I want the government involved is in my medical treatments!

The big city VA Hospital and clinics are better equiped, I grant that. But the smaller cities and communities don’t have those options.

These buildings are dirty, unsanitary, and some need to be condemmed. Their staff is minimum,their equipment even worse than minimum, their medical practices are old world, their medicines are outdated. The Veteran’s wait months for treatment.

If you are unfortunate enough not to live close, then you travel for hours to the closest hospital. We have one VA Clinic within 100 miles of us. The closest VA Hospital is 400 miles away, and it is a small one. There is a big difference between a hospital and a clinic.

Again, the last place I want the government invovlved in is in my medical treatments!

Spoken like a true Marine . . . I now pronounce you an “Honarary Marine”;-)

On the serious side – Guy is nothing but a very mis-informed lemming. My whole family back home are the same way, no one seems able to think for themselves. And my invite to Communist China stands for anyone who thinks Communism is cool.

BTW Guy, Nancy Pelosi flies around the country on her husbands corporate jet (yep, just like those wall street fat cats she bad mouthed for doing just that), not just any corporate jet – but one of the most polluting kind, of which she pays a minimum fee from our tax money and the rest is “donated” by her husbands corporation. Can you spell “Conflict of Interest”? Ah, Socialism . . . Breakfast of the rip-off artists! How does it feel to get screwed without ever being kissed?

Guy,
I think you bring up a good point….hehehehe. Your example of a VA hospital and the statement that it is run like crap…think about what you are saying. Do you want the government having a hand in your grocery store, your gas stations, and any place where you purchase a product? Yes I am well aware of the difference between Communism and Socialism but you and I both know investors have a say in how business is run. Stop kidding yourself…you only sound like the rest of the sheep.

My questions to you…..are you in the new tax bracket that just got screwed by the tax increase? Well I am…and no matter what CNN tells you, I am not rich. I do not drive a fancy car, I do not go on lavish trips and I do not have an expendable income that I can buy whatever I want. I have a budget like everyone else. I save my money and until the recent downturn of the stock market, I invested my money. So blame me for your 401K going down the toilet. But remember, I would be happy to invest if your leader didn’t take all my money. Oh the vicious circle my friend.

Monseuir Lafleur and Monseuir Beliveau were Canadian hockey players. Stress on Canadian. No need to say more, eh?

“The French thought the people were behind them too, right up until they revolted.”

Does anyone know where the political terms of Right, Middle, and Left originated? Seating in France’s National Assembly. Does anyone know what the French Left enacted, in order to control the unrest and dissatisfaction of those who put them into power? The Council of 12 on Public Safety, led by Robespierre.

Paraphrasing Robespierre: better for government to reign by virtue of terror – thus the guillotine. The Third Estate was all for Robespierre the “Incorruptible” and the Radical Sans Culottes party’s plan for taking from what was left of the nobility to redistribute…until the Reign of Terror began to execute its own when they realized things had gone too far. Many of those that were executed were the wealthy merchants of the same Third Estate that put the Sans Culottes and Jacobins into power. What happened to Robespierre…he was one of the last to meet the guillotine.

I guess that could be interpreted as some support to BF and Kent’s views about government.

G.A.
I do not think impeachment has much chance. The dissenting opinion in the Heller case stated that congress could make any law, without being constrained by the Constitution or Bill of Rights. A recent Supreme Court ruling allows a state to treat a misdemeanor the same as a felony crime, and revoke their 2nd. amendment rights. So if you could get it before the court, odds are against a fair hearing.

Guy, Mr. Obama is doing just what he said he would do? So he has been showing transparency? There was adequate time to read and discuss that bipartisan spending bill? His cabinet filled with exClintonites and crooks is the CHANGE he promised? Go back and watch your Obama DVD collection and make that statement again. Its OK if you do, we have all seen and heard a hyprocritic
lie before.

Flag, from the heart
Hey, don’t you know its a waste of your day
Caught up in endless solutions
That have no meaning, just another hunch
Based on jumping conclusions
Caught up in endless solutions
Backed up against a wall of confusion
Joe Walsh

VA hospitals and clinics are an exemplary example of my favourite Marine acronym. Government-managed / controlled healthcare, anyone? I do not know if this has changed now, but it used to be that a vet was assigned to a particular hospital. Durham might be 40 miles away, but the vet had to go to Salem – 120 miles further. Bureaucracy at work.

USW’s comment to Guy “And you don’t know #&@# about Frederick, MD.” Too true. Fort Detrick is what the public hears…Reston is what the public ignores. Remember the little monkey episode (can I say monkey)?

This is a bit of a tangent, but is an observation about criticisms of Black Flag’s comments. I have been thinking about this for some time, yet avoiding writing it because I can already see in my mind’s eye the objections that will be posted.

There must be some distortion effect that comes from being on different sides of the “state” issue. I’m not sure if it is “outside, looking in” or “inside, looking out”, or just looking through a dirty shower curtain. I understand and follow everything he is saying and can’t understand why others seem to have such trouble grasping (or accepting) what he says. What he says is correct. Some may not want to accept it, but that doesn’t change it. After all, gravity still works whether you like it or not, and even in orbit where “weightless” is a term tossed about incorrectly, everything is still subject to the laws of gravity. “Orbit” wouldn’t even exist without it.

I see a similarity between “acceptance of the state” and religion. Back when I considered myself a Christian I saw the world through a lens that distorted everything. Yet, until I got out I didn’t realize I was seeing things in a distorted way; it looked “right” to me. Freed from that world I can’t understand why everyone doesn’t see it, and suspect that most of them do but are unwilling to admit it since it gives their lives a “center” to orient themselves around. I think the state is just another example of the same kind of “home-base”. I think that until you turn loose of it, you will not be able to understand or see the truth no matter how clearly and logically it is laid out for you. External information may trigger something subconscious, but the realization probably will have to come from inside.

“Socialism does not equal communism. One is economic the other is political”

Both based upon the philosophy that theft is OK. Based upon the idea that I don’t own my own life and the products of that life. Different manifestations of the exact same thing. Steam, water, ice. Same substance showing up in different forms.

“our elected officials are doing what the majority of America has asked them to do.”

No, they are doing what the majority of VOTERS asked them to do. Voters are a minority under the best of circumstances. Look how many things cause the government to refuse to allow a person to vote (age, convictions for counterfeit “crimes”, residency requirements, ID issues, etc.). Then of those “allowed” to vote, look at the fraction who actually do, and then of those, only a thin majority voted for the “winning” side.

VERY well said Kent. It is amazing what constitutes a mandate for the far left or far right these days. Americans will have their say eventually, and like every other rise of the far left, they will be relegated to the sidelines for another bunch of years. Now if we can find a way to stop the far right extremists from being the ones to relegate them there.

Actually, much of what you refer to as guano can indeed be found in various web searches. One merely needs a basic understanding of the information for which one is looking. However, coming from a background in biological and epidemiological research, with forays into CDC and WHO, I am fairly certain that I am not “misled.” I also know that if one is privy to information that has a certain little stamp on each page, and then begins to discuss said information – either overtly or covertly, one can end up in that same pile of guano. Careful, there.

Rowe – thanks – I understand what you’re saying where you’re coming from – I was referring more to that which is compartmentalized. I’m posting because I enjoy debate (at least I thought I did) – and thought there was some constructiveness that can be culled through the passion of what comes across in my voice or that of others in here. I do actually agree with some of what gets passed on in here – but when I hear/read/see a guy that absolutely rails against the media as a whole and that the media fills my mind w/ all sorts of b.s. and then starts a post of by saying “I was reading the Fox news forums and…..” I get real suspicious. Granted – its US’ blog and he can say what ever the hell he wants and moderate those who disagree with him – but I suspect there is far more than a kernel of brightness therein and he should consider more deeply the lens of those who don’t 100% agree with him and engage as such.

Perhaps you should include a more honest appraisal of where I get my info. I did in fact say that very thing, and I do so because the forums are where the people are, from both sides, arguing their points, albeit not as politely as I demand here. I said so because that is where I found that particular article that I was referencing. Go back a few more days and find a post that started “As part of my daily rituals, I routinely go out and seek other blogs to find out what people are saying.” I also peruse the ABC forums, the CNN forums, the Huffington Post, NY Times, Washington Post, Washington Journal, and countless blogs written by people who are on the right, the left, the center, and in Kent’s case anarchists. Simply pointing out only Fox News Forums as though that is my onl source of information is misleading.

I do owe you an apology for my reaction to your posts. It wasn’t fair to assume you can’t think for yourself and that you did nothing but get your talking points from the media. But I don’t owe you one for my opinions. And I don’t feel that you are correct on the issues. I do feel as though you are misinformed, from one source or another and the demeanor of your post spoke of the media cries that have no basis on fact (ie: bush lies). I am always willing to look at all sides of an issue. BlackFlag can attest to the amount of time I have spent debating him. And I want to be clear about the moderating. I in no way censor your opinions or ideas, only the personal attack way that it was presented. I explained so and was happy to have you re-post your thoughts. I have yet to read the re-post but I assume that the personal attacks and name calling are gone, in which case they are welcome comments.

Socialism does not equal communism. One is economic the other is political.

The elected officials are doing what the majority of America has asked them to do. It is absolutely an illegal war – illegal illegal illegal. Bush, Cheney and all their cronies should be charged for war crimes. The Iraqi’s are given far too much credit for being able to all of a sudden hide those dastardly WMD. They were stupid incompetent buffoons. We were watching them from the sky and from the ground before, duirng and after the illegal invasion and still haven’t found jack squat. Where the hell is the WMD? Did it all just vanish into thin air? The put it in a big old sand cave somewhere that we cannot find? We cannot seem to find a single soul that knows about it? Yes we know they had bio & chem they used on the Kurds – but that isn’t what was used to make the case. In so far as what you think I have or have not done in my career – I have and continue to serve – I just don’t wear a uniform issued by one of the four major branches.

Also – I know where I work and have worked. I have worked in research, in application development, in field testing and field work. I know intimately what compartmentalized is and means. I’ve eaten, slept, worked, puked and shit in more climates that most people can find on a map.

Income redistribution (as you call it) – I specifically called out the VA hospitals as an example because – and very specifically because – the free market cannot make a dime off of these poor souls. Are they the best hospitals? Nope. They need more injection of resources, cash and people who actually give a shit about the vets. Trust me – your blog here is a good tool for upping the dialogue, but it didn’t help me change the diapers on 3 vets this morning who’ve had their pride crushed that they can no longer control their own bodily functions – this blog – this ‘voice of support’ is great – but those vets are looking for help – not our opinions. If your average vet, who wasn’t paid shit from the illegal war he just fought in, cannot afford to pay for his medical bills and services then who pays for it in a capitalist driven hospital? Somebody tell me and have it make sense because I cannot compute. The roads you drive on, the schools you and your kids went to, the National Parks you visit, the safe food you eat, – need I go on – the taxes you pay, that is where they go, no? See the problem with the right masked as the center is that they are convinced that capitalism is the answer to everything – it is NOT – business has a vested interest in maximizing profit and our recent history is chock full of examples of where they have failed us. I for one, if we point to the Banks, do not want the fox to guard the hen house. Do you?

It is real tough to take a read here on face value when you decry the media but wax poetic on the Fixed news? That doesn’t deserve a WTF?

PLEASE go down to Florida and visit an alligator farm during feeding time

I read your point, and “No” and that’s my point.

Why would I want to provoke a mindless beast? Alligator or Government?

I use my brain to avoid evil – not tickle its tummy to see how brave I am…..

Life of Illusion

Flag, from the heart
Hey, don’t you know its a waste of your day
Caught up in endless solutions
That have no meaning, just another hunch
Based on jumping conclusions
Caught up in endless solutions
Backed up against a wall of confusion
Joe Walsh

Paradigm shifts are incredibly difficult to happen – you move from the known (but perhaps a known illusion) to the absolute unknown.

Most people would rather live in a the known illusion then risk the unknown truth.

But all great change always occurs from a paradigm shift.

I’ve got this uncanny ability to see the future … not like I can tell what numbers will win the lottery… but see the confluences and where “if it, then that, therefore this” will lead.

Government as you understand will implode – instantly; overnight.

It will not be a gradual thing – one day here, appearing overwhelming and dominating and tomorrow – dust.

And I predict you will see this happen in your lifetime.

Guy

business has a vested interest in maximizing profit and our recent history is chock full of examples of where they have failed us.

First,free market business has a vested interest in serving the people, because it is profitable to do so. I believe you have to get the motivations aligned properly to understand.

Second, free market businesses are not perfect – nor can they solve all problems – nor can some problems be solved easily.

But that holds for government too.

However, the free market is the OPTIMUM solution for any problem – and sometimes the optimum solution, today, still sucks.

But is will always be better than any government solution (unless the problem is how to kill the largest number of people the fastest – then I’d take the government solution first).

“However, the free market is the OPTIMUM solution for any problem – and sometimes the optimum solution, today, still sucks.” – I really wish I could back that – I just think there are areas where the free market simply will never touch because the entry price is too high or the margins too low.

If the market won’t touch it, doesn’t that mean there is no desire for “it”, at least at its real cost? If the state monopoly provides it at an artificially depressed price in order for there to be a “market” for the product or service maybe it is something we could do without. Get rid of the government monopoly and see what happens. You might be surprised.

Flag
Are you a big Matrix fan or something? Paradigm shifts?
I quote Joe Walsh and you bring up metaphysical BS. You have had too much or too little to drink. “Most people would rather live in a known illusion? The people here are the most grounded I’ve had dialog with, they know WHO and WHERE they are, with a few exceptions.
You should visit the liberal Alternet site. I tried them for a while, but it was like talking to Guy X 1000.

(G.A. Rowe, may I PLEASE RETRACT my bitter remark?)

Are you prepared for this instant, overnight implosion?
John Lennon was “sitting there watching the wheels go round and round”. Are you sitting on a fence watching or have you gathered up some things that go bang? I think you are not as detached as you portray.

Guy
I feel its a waste of time to respond to you, but US said give you five minutes. So, if someone puts out a big fire, they have done something “heroic”. If you see smoke, and pour water on it, you acted prudently. If you break into someone’s house and chop into their wall, you are a nutcase about to be arrested.
Did you not read about the 52 TONS of yellow cake URANIUM found in Iraq? TRUTH!!! The US spent millions to transport it to Canada. Why did a country with no nuclear reactors need uranium? Have we found WMD’s? No, not yet. We might need to look in Syria, as well as their desert.

Life of Illusion… Keep it clean, nothing personal. We are all a little emotional these days and frustrated. BF’s opinions may not always make sense but they are his. Re-read his post. If you go back to his previous discussions about paradigm shifts, he is not as far in left field with his response as it seems. Perhaps with his logic, though 😉

LOI and US ~ please do define for me what you consider a credible news source – may make the dialogue much easier. I do recall the story last year of the 550 metric tons of yellowcake – problem is none of the sources seem credible in terms of details (e.g. http://www.abovetopsecret.com), there are questions as to whether the yellow cake was weapons grade or not, supposedly inspectors knew of this material ever since the Israelis had bombed the accompanying reactor site years prior, and the lightbulb issue being – with people like me and uh – most of the rest of the world decrying that no WMDs were ever found and with Woodward’s final Bush saga in print, why oh why didn’t Bush-Cheney make a bigger deal of this? It doesn’t add up and it does not make sense. This would have been the smoking gun they were looking for no? The same sites drummin this up are the same ones holding forth that the MIGs found ‘buried’ in the desert is evidence of a WMD program (or at least evidence of the ability of the Iraqis as Bush claimed, to hide lots of big stuff) – or – my all time favorite – that the entire Iraqi WMD program was so technologically advanced that it was completely, always 20 steps ahead of the UN inspectors and was slid into Syria right before the war, right under our noses. I don’t believe this crap and am surpised anyone would find it credible.

I agree on the credibility of that information Guy. I didn’t see it myself and don’t have a credible explanation as to why Bush wouldn’t have publicized it in a big way. However, before you go too far with simply dismissing certain items, I offer you this. There is this mantra from those who decry the WMD hoax that there is no way it could be buried in the desert or moved to Syria, Iran, or somewhere else. That is a fundamental flaw in your argument that often gets in the way of serious dialogue about the subject. I can admit that it hasn’t been found. I can admit that there is the possibility that it no longer existed at the time of the US invasion. However much like BlackFlag, you lose credibility with me when you make a claim that I know to be false and are unwilling to concede that you may be wrong about it. Here is where I dispute your claims above:

First, as I stated previously, we have “lost” 7 planes in the great northwest. The Iraqi desert is big, very big. I have been there and traipsed through more of it than I cared to. It is not an exaggeration to say that the Pentagon could be buried there and not found for 100 years. Look at the valley of the kings in Egypt. They are still finding new buildings, tombs, and artifacts there MUCH larger than a mobile weapons labs, and they have been digging in that fairly small area for 100 years. So to say that they could not be buried in the desert and simply not found for a long time is simply not credible. It absolutely could be true, even though that goes against what YOU believe. Admission of that fact would gain you quite a bit of credibility.

Second, We “invaded” Iraq several years ago, and as an occupying force in that country for the last 5 years, we have been completely unable to monitor or control the borders with Iran and Syria at all. Massive amounts of weapons, equipment, and personnel have moved across those borders daily right under our noses and without our ability to control it or monitor it. Do you dispute that fact? If you can accept that to be true, why is it inconceivable that a few mobile weapons labs could be moved across those same borders before we were an occupying force in that country? We have a very difficult time monitoring and controlling what comes across the borders in THIS country. They are able to get everything from drugs to people to stolen cars in and out of this country every day, and this is OUR country. So what makes you think that the border in Iraq was this impenetrable barrier that nothing could have gotten through? Admission of this reality would also gain you credibility.

Finally, the whole mantra of Bush was a liar is unfounded and downright full of assumptions and assignment of intent. It is also an assignment of guilt to one man rather than looking honestly at the entire situation both in scope and context of time. Why do we assume that Bush lied? Couldn’t he just have been mistaken? After all, the American population believed that Iraq had WMD’s. We had video evidence of him using them on his own people in the past. He stomped out on International TV each day and told the world that he had them and would use them if we attacked him. The UN believed he had them. Congress believed that he had them, and voted to support what Bush planned in Iraq (hence why it isn’t really an illegal war, a bad one and perhaps an ill-conceived one, but not illegal). And we cannot simply give Congress a pass on that by saying Bush lied or gave them wrong information unintentionally and they believed him. It is their job to be the balance to his check. Checks and balances are there for a reason. It was their job to research and find out for themselves before they voted. For the record they did, and whether they now admit it or not, they did the research and came to the same conclusion that he came to. And in House Joint Resolution 114 on October 11, 2002, voted 77-23 to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Iraq. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say and it has been amazing to see Senators that voted yes on 10/11/02 now come forward and lay all the blame on Bush and tell America with a straight face that they didn’t have anything to do with it. If Bush really did intentionally deceive America, Congress was his willing accomplice and are just as guilty as he is. I understand that neither “Bush and Congress Lied – People Died” or “Bush was Mistaken – People Died” don’t make nearly as neat a bumper sticker and don’t further the Democrat agenda, but we have to learn to be honest with each other.

You wanted honest and intelligent debate on these issues, you got it. I hope that you can be as honest and rational in your reply so that we can hash this out. This is what I mean by honest and intelligent debate. The “talking points” we get from the parties isn’t going to serve anyone but the parties. But we can have an honest discussion with respect and figure this out. Take emotion out of the equation let’s get down to business. You are now free to attempt to poke holes in my logic. But no “talking points”, just logic.

Rowe: your statement: “BTW Guy, Nancy Pelosi flies around the country on her husbands corporate jet (yep, just like those wall street fat cats she bad mouthed for doing just that), not just any corporate jet – but one of the most polluting kind, of which she pays a minimum fee from our tax money and the rest is “donated” by her husbands corporation.”

I think you are wrong here my friend – but I do encourage you to supply a credible source that supports your statement (John Boehner press releases are generally not considered credible). Fact check (which would you agree is credible?) has debunked much of the b.s. about Speaker Pelosi and her transportation. She is fairly high in the succession lineage – wouldn’t you agree it makes sense to offer her the same protections her Republican predecessor received? http://www.factcheck.org/politics/sliming_pelosi.html

US ~ thanks and I will be as hard headed as you with my views. As in some other posts this evening I do make every effort to read multiple sources. I do in fact watch mr olbermann but only because i find it entertaining and not quite informing. FWIW I place reliance on a balance of domestic and international sources plus what I come across in my travels and what I see with my own two eyes. Make not mistake – we are clearly on differing sides of what we think a solution may be and unfortunately disagree with each other over historical interpretations (this coming from a native american forced to learn U.S. history from ‘the English history books’). I do applaud you for your blog – any change (whether I like it, you like it, or we both like it) will come from information channels such as this – that is the hope I really cling to.

“However, the free market is the OPTIMUM solution for any problem – and sometimes the optimum solution, today, still sucks.” – I really wish I could back that – I just think there are areas where the free market simply will never touch because the entry price is too high or the margins too low.

Then, “that thing” simply has no economic reason for it to exist.

For sure, it’s not worth beating someone up to get “that thing” done.

Just because I might like to have something does not mean I can get, or should get it.

Life of Illusion

Are you a big Matrix fan or something?

It has some good allegories for government vs. freedom

Paradigm shifts?
I quote Joe Walsh and you bring up metaphysical BS.

There is nothing “metaphysical” about paradigm shifts.

Paradigms exist – and many of them are based on illusions.

“Most people would rather live in a known illusion? The people here are the most grounded I’ve had dialog with, they know WHO and WHERE they are, with a few exceptions.

That may be your experience here – but review some past blogs – or stick around awhile –

You will see so many illusions held by faith, you’ll think USWep was Houdini 😉

You should visit the liberal Alternet site. I tried them for a while, but it was like talking to Guy X 1000.

That is a fundamental flaw in your argument that often gets in the way of serious dialogue about the subject.

The flaw, USWep, is you can’t prove a negative.

You can rant all day claiming that “just because we haven’t found them”, the might exist – but that is flawed.

The onus is on the proof – where is it? Oh, there is none? Sorry, that’s it.

If you can’t prove it, claim you have proof, start a war over it… then you are a war criminal and a liar.

They are still finding new buildings, tombs, and artifacts there MUCH larger than a mobile weapons labs, and they have been digging in that fairly small area for 100 years.

But sir, we are talking about WMD.

They cannot be hid easily – they erode (dangerously) if they are not maintained.

They have to be guarded.

Even the N. Koreans were unable to hid their program – and the US has zero intelligent assets on the ground there. If the US could find the program, Iraq would have been child’s play.

If you can accept that to be true, why is it inconceivable that a few mobile weapons labs could be moved across those same borders before we were an occupying force in that country?

Because 1) not even Saddam is stupid enough to give is enemies WMD!

2) Neither nation has the infrastructure to maintain the weapons – again, refer to above. This is not drug smuggling = here, the ‘goods’ tend to rot into incredibly dangerous things that go “boom” by themselves.

Why do we assume that Bush lied? Couldn’t he just have been mistaken?

No.

He had intelligent that told him the truth, and he purposely ignored it.

He fabricated evidence.

After all, the American population believed that Iraq had WMD’s. We had video evidence of him using them on his own people in the past.

No, we do not have such a ‘video’ and two, he did not use them on his own people. Even the US military knows that….

And we cannot simply give Congress a pass on that by saying Bush lied or gave them wrong information unintentionally and they believed him.

WMD’s are a broad category. While some do “rot into dangerous thing”, others do not. Most bio weapons, which is what would be in a mobile bio-weapons vehicle, do not rot and go boom, or for that matter even have bad effects on their environment when buried or moved. They simply end up dying the same way other biological things die, quietly and painlessly. SOME chemical weapons do what you claim. So there may have been no need for this magic infrastructure that you claim didn’t exist. That was a clever way to attempt to make your point, but pointless when shown to be flawed as I have done here.

Don’t twist the argument again with your “proving a negative” hubaloo. I am not using a lack of finding them as my basis for they might exist. I believe that they do exist, or once did in Iraq. That we have not find them does not prove that they didn’t exist. That sir, was a very adept and deceptive twist on the argument that might have worked on weaker opponents.

As for the battle of Halabja. I will admit that there are differing reports as to what happened there. However there is no report claiming that the Iraqi forces did not use chemical weapons at Halabja. The most credible report seems to be from the people who were there four days later, and their claim is there is no doubt that Iraq was responsible for the chemical agent deaths of the kurds. The second most credible seems to be from Stephen Pelletiere, a senior CIA political analyst on the Iran/Iraq war. He claimed that both Iran and Iraq used chemicals that day in Halabja, the Iranians a blood agent, and the Iraqis a mustard agent. The point is that there is no doubt that Iraq at one point had WMD’s of some sort. Stop trying to divert the argument from the facts.

Do you have any proof that Bush lied? A single thing that backs up your claim that he had the intelligence that gave him definitive proof that they didn’t exist and that he purposely ignored it? Not a claim or a biased news source, but actual PROOF. If not then apply your own “proving a negative theory” If I don’t have “proof” that WMD’s were there, they didn’t. If you don’t have “proof” that he lied, he didn’t. See, it works both ways. You let the emotion of simply hating the government get in the way discussing this in a fact based way. Shame on you.

WMD’s are a broad category. While some do “rot into dangerous thing”, others do not. Most bio weapons, which is what would be in a mobile bio-weapons vehicle, do not rot and go boom, or for that matter even have bad effects on their environment when buried or moved.

First, there is only WMD and that is nukes – the re-classification of other weapon systems such as chem/bio is ridiculous.

The inclusion of all sorts of different weapon systems was a political move to forestall the resistance of non-nuclear nations to the demands of nuclear ones.

As the Non-Proliferation Treaty, only those that had nukes got to keep them – and we all know what kind of leverage that left for the nuclear nations.

To abide by the Non-Proliferation, but not be leveraged out of existence, non-nuke countries utilized increasing stocks of chemical weapons to counter the nuclear threat.

Obviously, if nuclear nations are going to be restrained by the MAD doctrine in actually using nukes, the power balance shifted to those with non-nuke ability – like chem weapons.

The US (and others nuke powers) couldn’t have this. Thus, on the lead of Bush Sr., the powers decided – unilaterally – to include chem/bio weapons as well in the definition.

Without the chem weapons, small powers have little hope of resisting the great powers war ability. They lost leverage again.

The unintended consequence of such re-classification was, unlike nukes, there are huge stockpiles in all sorts of different countries. Now, as classified as WMD, these countries are now targets of preemptive war – a doctrine articulated by Bush Jr.

Bio

There is no known, effective, weaponized bio agent. Decades of trying by all major powers, not one has been found to be useful as a weapon.

Chem

By their nature, they are toxic and corrosive. Without regular maintenance, the chemicals will erode out of their containment.

Nuke
All nuclear piles disintegrate – that is why they are radioactive. The nuclear pellet must be replaced regularly – and the resultant “expired” pellet is even more toxic then the pellet that makes the nuke go boom.

Further, two types of launch vehicles – solid fuel/liquid fuel.

The latter gives great range – unfortunately, does not store very well – after a time, their fuel goes “boom” all by themselves.

The former is short range, and small load – unfortunately (if you want to be a small nuke power) too light to carry a nuke warhead. Only Russia/GBritian/USA have the technology to produce low-yield, light nuke warheads. (China may now too, thanks to Clinton).

No matter how you cut the cake, a minor power will be unable to hide their significant weapon systems.

If you can’t see it, and your not Russia, China, USA, GBritian, France or India – it ain’t there.

I believe that they do exist, or once did in Iraq.

We know, for sure, they had chemical weapons because the USA sold them to Iraq.

That we have not find them does not prove that they didn’t exist.

Sir, we are not talking about past existence. That has no relevance to the present existence.

Because you cannot find them now, means they do not exist now

I had a Ferrari, but I don’t now. Therefore, you cannot claim that I have a Ferrari!

> As for the battle of Halabja. I will admit that there are differing reports as to what happened there. However there is no report claiming that the Iraqi forces did not use chemical weapons at Halabja.

The US Army War College has the most accurate report, and it states:NO PROOF SADDAM GASSED THE KURDS!

Having looked at all of the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department’s claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds — in Turkey where they had gone for asylum — failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

So, let’s be clear. Iraq did use chem weapons there – but against the Iranians.

Iran and the elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of this operation – according to the U.S. State Department — gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed.

The investigation by the War College found that the civilians deaths were due to cyanide gas – which was not part of the Iraq Army, but definitely part of the Iranian Army.

Do you have any proof that Bush lied?

Yes, he said there were WMD that threatened the USA.

Neither of those claims have validity, nor proof.

The onus is on Bush to prove his claim, not for me to prove his lie. He is the one who by his claim of proof would put sword upon another nation.

A single thing that backs up your claim that he had the intelligence that gave him definitive proof that they didn’t exist and that he purposely ignored it?

Not a claim or a biased news source, but actual PROOF.

The British leaked memo’s where the British state, unequivocally, that Bush is defining truth based on policy.

Sometime after we got into Iraq and weren’t coming up with WMD’s I saw an interview with a fellow who claimed to be the head of the Iraqi air force and said he was at the air port when WMD was loaded onto Russian aircraft and flown to Syria and one of the old Soviet states, I don’t remember which. This guy poped up again a few days later on another network then vanished. I’ve never seen him in media again or heard any referance to him or his claims specifically.

I’m sorry flag, Your information is well placed misinformation. Remember the Iraqi cousin to Saddam named “Chemical Ali”? HE is the one who, on Saddam Hussain’s orders, organized the annihilation of those Kurd villages by spraying chemical agents via air from American made helicopters. The Turkish air force, at the request of the United States State department, are the ones who provided the arial photographs of the dead villagers that were published in the mainstream news media in Europe and here in the U.S.

interview with a fellow who claimed to be the head of the Iraqi air force and said he was at the air port when WMD was loaded onto Russian aircraft and flown to Syria and one of the old Soviet states, I don’t remember which.

First, do remember, quite a few senior Saddam military were saying anything they dreamed was valuable to the USA so to get out of Iraq, and save their skins.

Second, there is no benefit for Russia to hide Iraqi weapon systems. First, all of Saddam weapons were American made, including their chemical weapons.

Second, there is no reason for the Russians to want to have more chemical weapons that are rotting.

Third, Syria has no infrastructure capable of supporting nuke/chem/bio. Taking these weapons would be like taking an armed grenade – it’s going boom!

Syria isn’t stupid, either. All it takes is Israel to think you might could have some concrete, they pretend its a nuke reactor and bomb the blazes out of it. What do you think they’d do if they thought Syria had a whiff of chem weapons – and they might get into the hands of Hezbollah? Israel would nuke Syria! Syria is not that stupid!

<b.G. A. Rowe said

I’m sorry flag, Your information is well placed misinformation. Remember the Iraqi cousin to Saddam named “Chemical Ali”? HE is the one who, on Saddam Hussain’s orders, organized the annihilation of those Kurd villages by spraying chemical agents via air from American made helicopters.

Sorry, sir.

Evidence from a man tortured into confession – without any corroborating evidence does not hold weight with me.

First, Iraq only received chemical weapons from the United States of America.

The USA did not sell any weapon system containing cyanide – the chem weapon that killed the Hallelujah civilians.

eaked portions of Iraq’s “Full, Final and Complete” disclosure of the sources for its weapons programs shows that thiodiglycol, a substance needed to manufacture mustard gas, was among the chemical precursors provided to Iraq from US companies

Pictures from the air show only dead people – not the cause. You are being sucked in by propanganda.

And finally, Saddam did say he used chem weapons – on the Iranians and the Kurd allies, who were fighting there as irregular troops along side with Iranians.

He always admitted that, but always disclaimed that he used it on Iraqi Kurds not involved in the fighting.

And finally, whether he used them or not, is irrelevant. The USA knew he had them then because the USA supplied it to him.

But that does not mean he had any after the GW1 – as part of the armistice, he was ordered to destroy all stockpiles, and as far as every UN inspection over the next 10 or more years – found…zero.

“The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State.”— Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels

BF: No! The fellow was older, probably in his 60’s, somewhat thin as I remember. I thought he said he was the general in command of the Iraqi air force. He had been in Iraq the entire time and was still there after the invasion. His claim was that alot of the stuff was moved about 2 weeks before invasion. I have no problems with some of your doubts on this point, I just found it odd that the guy would have vindicated Bush then vanished from the media, in only two days. I always assumed it was because someone found out he was lying, but there was never any followup.

BF: That sure sounds like the guy. But saw him soon after the invasion of Baghdad itself. Once we had secured airports etc and rats were coming forward. I thought he said he was actually at the airport when some of the planes were being loaded.

Anyway, I think that is the character. The only other one would be the fellow who was his boss, the #1 in the airforce.

Obama ran as a democrat but is not a real democrat, he started in a party call the Social Democratic party. This party got not so many votes because of the Word Social in their name. So some of the smarter ones descided that they would Drop the Social part of the name and become part of the Democratic party and then start trying to get some of their candidates elected (can you say Left wing)The stragy was to appear Centrist get elected then GOVERN AS FAR LEFT AS THEY COULD. Any of this sound familiar.