NovaNocturne wrote:I'm disliking the attitude from both girls. They are both being equally selfish, immature and, pardon the furry slur, catty. The only reason I empathize with either is because they are imperfect and everyone makes mistakes like that.

I almost agree, although I don't think Alice is trying to act maliciously. I think she really does see herself as the victim. Not saying she is right and that her reactions to it are correct, but she does seem like she could potentially be a likable character with a little development.

Yes, their behavior has not made them my favorites either. Things like cattiness and pettiness, particularly of the highschool-stereotype-that's-grossly-exaggerated-and-2Dified-in-a-lot-of-fiction variety (though I think Ms. Natalie is successfully avoiding such 2Difying of course =D), tend to rub me the wrong way. =/ I think this arc has helped flesh out Alice, though, and I like her more than I did with just Diana's arc. I'll add that Diana probably suspects Alice of ill intent and may be trying to keep Louis from falling prey, although yeah, selfishness applies here as well. I also think she doesn't realize that her demands are so detrimental to his aspirations.

Also, Louis is speaking up for said aspirations! Yay~ And not in a hesitant way, nor an angry or rebuking way, just a casual "sorry, I need to do this thing and this is how I need to do it." I'll be curious to see how Diana reacts. In that last panel, it looks like she's actually listening to him. Maybe. Or maybe she's gonna keep pushing or explode or something. x)

NovaNocturne wrote:I'm disliking the attitude from both girls. They are both being equally selfish, immature and, pardon the furry slur, catty. The only reason I empathize with either is because they are imperfect and everyone makes mistakes like that.

I almost agree, although I don't think Alice is trying to act maliciously. I think she really does see herself as the victim. Not saying she is right and that her reactions to it are correct, but she does seem like she could potentially be a likable character with a little development.

Yes, their behavior has not made them my favorites either. Things like cattiness and pettiness, particularly of the highschool-stereotype-that's-grossly-exaggerated-and-2Dified-in-a-lot-of-fiction variety (though I think Ms. Natalie is successfully avoiding such 2Difying of course =D), tend to rub me the wrong way. =/ I think this arc has helped flesh out Alice, though, and I like her more than I did with just Diana's arc. I'll add that Diana probably suspects Alice of ill intent and may be trying to keep Louis from falling prey, although yeah, selfishness applies here as well. I also think she doesn't realize that her demands are so detrimental to his aspirations.

Also, Louis is speaking up for said aspirations! Yay~ And not in a hesitant way, nor an angry or rebuking way, just a casual "sorry, I need to do this thing and this is how I need to do it." I'll be curious to see how Diana reacts. In that last panel, it looks like she's actually listening to him. Maybe. Or maybe she's gonna keep pushing or explode or something. x)

You did make me realize something, I think my favorite of the bunch is Louis. He has normally been shown as an accessory or Diana, (not saying that's what he is, but that was the main portrayal so far) but now he has been shown standing up for himself against the girl he seems most involved with. Which is a healthy characteristic for a relationship. Everyone needs to make compromises. Go Louis.

*NovaNoctures statement earlier* I dunno how to quote thingy works..... Quoted from another WC“A mistake is when you mess up on a math problem, this takes too much time and planning to be a mistake",on side note, who is the quote from you ask?

"As fast as thou shalt wane, so fast thou grow'stIn one of thine, from that which thou departest;And that fresh blood which youngly thou bestow'st,Thou mayst call thine when thou from youth convertest.Herein lives wisdom, beauty, and increase;Without this folly, age, and cold decay:If all were minded so, the times should ceaseAnd threescore year would make the world away.Let those whom nature hath not made for store,Harsh, featureless, and rude, barrenly perish:Look whom she best endowed, she gave the more;Which bounteous gift thou shouldst in bounty cherish: She carved thee for her seal, and meant thereby, Thou shouldst print more, not let that copy die."

Yep, Alice is Evil! I was holding back to see where the arc went, but I had my suspicions when from the beginning where Alice was plotting to steal someone else's er... close friend?Who does that and calls themselves a "Good person"?

Latrans wrote:My response over on Patreon:Happy-sympathize-with-Alice feelings all gone. >

Rubin_West wrote:Who does that and calls themselves a "Good person"?

-Rubin.-

I believe that's a bit of the point. She started the arc by saying she was a good person. She's ending the arc by admitting that what she just did wasn't what a nice person might do.

I don't think she is evil. I think she may have realized that she wasn't as good as she thought while playing Juliet. Maybe she realized that being "good" wouldn't get Juliet what she wanted. But I still don't think she is fully bad. Have you ever met anyone who was truly good, who had no selfish desires or pettiness?

Also if you notice, she didn't have that gloating expression on her face like Diana often did. She actually seemed to feel a little guilty.

I don't think she is evil. I think she may have realized that she wasn't as good as she thought while playing Juliet. Maybe she realized that being "good" wouldn't get Juliet what she wanted. But I still don't think she is fully bad. Have you ever met anyone who was truly good, who had no selfish desires or pettiness?

Also if you notice, she didn't have that gloating expression on her face like Diana often did. She actually seemed to feel a little guilty.

So, Alice is still the antagonist in this little drama? I think it's interesting in that Diana only seems to be the good guy in relation to Alice. All the other times she's been shown as the annoying little sister to Brian. Louis seems to be the only one she actually gets along with so far.

Rising Blue wrote:So, Alice is still the antagonist in this little drama? I think it's interesting in that Diana only seems to be the good guy in relation to Alice. All the other times she's been shown as the annoying little sister to Brian. Louis seems to be the only one she actually gets along with so far.

That's just it, I don't think she is the antagonist. Nor do I believe she is the protagonist. I don't think either of them are to be honest but both of them see themselves as the good one and the other the villain. They are both rather selfish and flawed but neither of them are truly bad. The only way for them to solve this conflict is to realize that.

So, I really don't like Alice. At all. But, that's good character writing!

I also want to say that I love the end of this arc because the conflict between the ending and the beginning is absolutely outstanding. At the beginning, Alice sees herself as a warrior of justice. Someone who is always righteous and does no wrong. At the end, it's interesting because she says, "A good person would say no" and then she lies. She goes against her righteous values from the beginning for selfishness in order to "play the role of Juliet." It is some seriously good writing and, even if the Alice doesn't realize it, pits her against her own morals and self perception.

Amazing writing Ellen Natalie. Always sucks me in and plays with my heartstrings in one way or another with these characters.

Trevor_Fox wrote:So, I really don't like Alice. At all. But, that's good character writing!

I also want to say that I love the end of this arc because the conflict between the ending and the beginning is absolutely outstanding. At the beginning, Alice sees herself as a warrior of justice. Someone who is always righteous and does no wrong. At the end, it's interesting because she says, "A good person would say no" and then she lies. She goes against her righteous values from the beginning for selfishness in order to "play the role of Juliet." It is some seriously good writing and, even if the Alice doesn't realize it, pits her against her own morals and self perception.

Amazing writing Ellen Natalie. Always sucks me in and plays with my heartstrings in one way or another with these characters.

Ditto this, love the ending, great callback to/contrast with the beginning. This is such well-crafted and interesting character development.