Come on, its been 5 years now. My contention about it not being possible came about because you said they just painted them in enamel, shut down the drying tunnels, and let the enamel painted cars go thru without regard to the other 912 cars being built on that day. I don't beleive we ever got into a car being made and not painted a finish color at all, as the other cars have never been of interest to you. By your own data you know the PC's arrived at the GM side spaced about 8 to 15 apart or more (don't forget they were making non Pace car convertibles at the same time so some may be spaced 20, 30 or 50 apart from one another) , so you know there we regular cars interspaced between the PCs and they could not have been built in a 50 car group (ie one after the other) so the ovens gould not have been shutdown so some enamel painted cars could pass. I had asked where GM could have painted 50 some odd cars in enamel, and was told that the mechanics of how it was done was not important, just that it was done. I beleive that was when I got tossed from your site, I guess I sort of said the emporer had no cloths, and now all of sudden there is one car (maybe there are others) shipped in prime and that now applies to the PCs. It's possible I suppose but there has never been a story of the PCs being shipped in prime and painted elsewhere so I would think tying one build to another is going to be a stretch.

It has been 5 years you are right about that. I was getting bits and pieces at that time pertaining to the pace cars being in a line in plant and I just like you was trying to apply the CRG assembly process to what I was hearing at NOR from the guys--boy that was tough.

Finally I quit trying to apply the assembly process and I just started listing to what I was being told from the guys who did the work and directed the work.

The Blue Prints for the plant cleared things up nicely too.

For those of you following along in the book page 135 is instructive to Mark and his ongoing confusion.

Fisher Body also had the Surge Bank where body release was spaced for paint and trim assembly operations where - the order of assembly on the Fisher Side was established after the unit was released from the body shop.

Convertibles were spaced along at this point for paint, hard and Soft Trim.

"Body shop could crank out Convertibles right in a row there was no roof to put on it was less work" (That is a direct research quote)

I am stating here and now that holding guys against their theories right in the middle of formulation ( however long that takes) is against the unwritten rules.. Your response above about the answers you received 5 years ago bleeds to the fact that now you are soiling a major attempt at fact finding with your hard line nonsense about how things cannot be instead of how thing may have been.. nobody knows but clearly you don't have any curiosity, you only want to sound more knowledgeable to the readers and gain something from that.. I will never stop looking.. Phil clearly refuses to accept the never never attitude of the collective CRG and the dead stopping of theories you are famous for.. this above post makes that abundantly clear... Your response had you been a curious Pacecar lover would have been " whats the progress?" "anything I can do?" etc etc.. but its always always negative... you force people to venture forth without you.. and that in part has created Phils book.. I suppose thanks are in order because your hard line facts ( thats are now in questions on a few fronts at least ) have boxed you in... a lack of open mindedness and a lack of desire to find amazing anomalies is now and will forever be your Achilles Heel..

Your collective group has many boundless mistakes that I've never been admitted to.. I, on the other hand simply use the excuse that I'm still searching...thats openmindedness

So what your telling me, and lets get our terms straight here, is that Fisher just sent their bodys down the assembly line in some nilly willy order (like perhaps the way they came over from GM) because their main restrictions in production were going to be convertibles, and vinyl tops and they didn't need to worry about that until the trim shop. And there was an area between the body shop, and the trim shop that allowed the 1500 lb body tubs to be taken out of the order they started production in and be reordered to pull out the convertibles, and cars with vinyl tops so they could go thru the trim shop with the higher work cars spaced out. Wouldn't it have been easier and more efficient (key word in a manufacturing plant) to arrange the bodies in the proper order in the first place? Once a car started down the line in a specific order, all of the parts could then begin flowing to the various work stations along the way in that locked order. Getting 3/4 of the way thru the line and then jumbling them up would wreak havoc with the parts scheduling to each station following the jumble.

You do know the difference between a surge bank (and I am using your term from above) and for lack of a better term a scheduling bank? A surge bank is an area of an assembly plant where the normal 30 ft or so spacing between bodies (or whatever you are making) was reduced to next to nothing so you could build up a larger quantity of bodies in the same physical space, so that in the event of a line stoppage before your surge bank the following stations can continue working until the bank is exhausted. Nothing changes order in a surge bank. A scheduling bank contains multiple parallel paths which would allow one or more vehicles to be pulled of the main line so that a body following behind that car could be allowed to pass, thereby juggling the build sequence. Whenever that happened (if it even could on fishers side) all the subsequent stations would have to be notified so the parts for the vehicle pulled aside could be removed from the line feeding that station. I think you can see the chaos this would cause in a plant everytime it happened. So we're saying that there were multiple parallel sets of rails for the towveyor karts to move along between the paint and trim shops to allow this potential scheduling disaster to occur?

Step back and look at the whole process, no matter whose description you want to use, the one on this site, yours, the retirees, or some combination of these plus any others out there. Think how you would send a firewall down the line and get all of the correct parts assembled to it, and it shipped over to GM. Try to remove the idiot factor where mistakes could be made, and try to minimize the potential for them to happen. How would you want your factory to work. When body number one started down the line at the beginning of the day, every station along the way got parts scheduled for body number 1 and placed into the station subfeed line, then body number 2 started out, and all the stations got parts for body number 2 on their part sub feed line, and this continued day in day out 912 times a day. Any hiccup in the system caused things like an RS tail to get installed on a non RS body, or a red interior on a gold car. These guys on the line didn't wait for the body to arrive at their station, then read the tag, or the UOIT's and then run off to find the correct parts, they were already there.

Two questions (that Warren asked above):I'm confused. Both Phil and Tom say that people followed the assembly article and misassembled their NOR cars. Can you please explain how you could tell in a finished car?

Other than this detail in the differences in the plants, are there other known issues in John's article? So far, you've just attacked it. Why not discuss issues with it, if there are any?

As expected, no response on either question.This whole conversation is going no where, just a whole lot of pot-stirring.