Oh yes. That first act, IMO, got everything pretty much right, with how I was hoping/expecting the film to start and go forward.

I don't know if it has been mentioned on here, but was I the only one who loved how during the montage of Bane's reign, they show the bellhop walking out of the hotel to see what the ruckus is; and he sees the army of disgruntled Gothamites/LOS members headed in his direction, then after a few cuts they cut back to the same bellhop and he's totally joined in on the mob mentality; dragging rich people on the ground?

It's both funny and pretty disturbing.

Definitely agree. It's a disturbing commentary on human nature and the herd mentality, but it's also this darkly comedic "if you can't beat 'em, join' em" sort of realization. Which in turn is also kind of disturbing. All in all, a pretty f****d up moment, haha.

That is everything. It's stated in TDKR that Bruce Wayne quit as Batman because of the Dent Act, because he and Gordon "won", because the Dent Act cleaned up Gotham. Bruce Wayne also quit being Bruce Wayne because he didn't want to move on and didn't feel the need to because the one woman he had his eyes on died. And Bruce even quit on his company because he royally screwed it up because of the failed clean energy project.

As I said, Rachel was not everything, but was there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

He didn't really forget about it, only skimmed through it while others wanted to see more, Nolan clearly didn't.

Yes. treated his own elements as if they were an obstacle, so he decided not to give them the importance they had in the previous movie. Or even more, as it should be as elements like that in a story should grow so the plot thickens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

The Joker. The poster you were also talking to on this thread.

Ah, ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

When Bruce said Alfred destroyed his world. That shows that Bruce acknowledged that Alfred was telling the truth.

As I told Joker, the member, that could mean that Alfred is trying to destroy his world. But again, I'd have to see the scene again.

He believed him. He said "You're sorry. You expect to destroy my world and then think that we're going to shake hands?". So by saying Alfred destroyed his world telling him that, he is obviously believing him about Rachel choosing Dent over him. Then there's the scene where Miranda holds up Rachel's photo and asks who she is, and Bruce looks at it with a quiet sadness.

The Dent lie that had have had a MUCH bigger impact than it did. That should have been a poop hitting the fan type scenario when that was revealed.

There's two things that since the summer of 2008 I had been hyping in my head was the blow back for Gordon once the truth was revealed, and the Bruce dealing with learning about the letter. I'm still a little disappointed that beyond Blake's comments about Gordons hands being pretty filthy to him, it's an almost forgotten concept. I can understand given the scenerio that there's just too much going on to include a media backlash or larger disgust towards Gordon, but it was something I really wanted to see.

I have to see the scene again. I didn't believe Bruce would only react calmly at that after all the decisions he had made based on a lie.

I think I interpreted Bruce's words as "You expect to come and do something to destroy my world so I stop being Batman." As in 'are you saying this just to make me stop???' But that doesn't necessarily mean he believes it.

Initially he didn't believe him. He said "How dare you use Rachel to try to stop me". He thought Alfred was was making it up to get him to quit being Batman again. But Alfred said he wasn't. He said he was telling the truth and that he was sorry. Then Bruce got a little choked up and said those aforementioned lines I quoted.

This was instrumental to Bruce being able to move on with Selina (and have sex with Miranda). He was no longer in the frame of mind that his one chance at happiness had died 8 years ago.

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The quiet sadness could have been about her death alone.

I don't see why since he had no problem talking about Rachel before this. His inability to answer Miranda about who Rachel was said to me that he couldn't bring himself to talk about her after learning the harsh truth that she had chose someone else over him.

He also said to Miranda that Alfred had left "Taking everything".

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If I understood you well, yes, I agree.

Yes, sorry about the typo. I meant the Dent lie should have had a massive impact, like the poop hitting the fan when the truth finally came out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andino

There's two things that since the summer of 2008 I had been hyping in my head was the blow back for Gordon once the truth was revealed, and the Bruce dealing with learning about the letter. I'm still a little disappointed that beyond Blake's comments about Gordons hands being pretty filthy to him, it's an almost forgotten concept. I can understand given the scenerio that there's just too much going on to include a media backlash or larger disgust towards Gordon, but it was something I really wanted to see.

That was a major problem for me with TDKR. No personality for Gotham. These things affected their city. They were living under a lie for 8 years. The villain was starting a revolution among their people. Batman came back after 8 years. Do we see any real reactions or feelings about this from the people? No.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

Initially he didn't believe him. He said "How dare you use Rachel to try to stop me". He thought Alfred was was making it up to get him to quit being Batman again. But Alfred said he wasn't. He said he was telling the truth and that he was sorry. Then Bruce got a little choked up and said those aforementioned lines I quoted.

This was instrumental to Bruce being able to move on with Selina (and have sex with Miranda). He was no longer in the frame of mind that his one chance at happiness had died 8 years ago.

You're right. That was the bit of the dialogue I thought was inconclusive.

I still missed a most visceral reaction from Bruce. He had made important decision partially based on a lie from whom he thought was a man he could totally trust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

I don't see why since he had no problem talking about Rachel before this. His inability to answer Miranda about who Rachel was said to me that he couldn't bring himself to talk about her after learning the harsh truth that she had chose someone else over him.

He also said to Miranda that Alfred had left "Taking everything".

You're probably right. I need to see this again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Yes, sorry about the typo. I meant the Dent lie should have had a massive impact, like the poop hitting the fan when the truth finally came out.

That was a major problem for me with TDKR. No personality for Gotham. These things affected their city. They were living under a lie for 8 years. The villain was starting a revolution among their people. Batman came back after 8 years. Do we see any real reactions or feelings about this from the people? No.

Ill say it again. Thank God they didn't show extras "acting" and reacting to all the stuff going on in Gotham. Those were the weakest points in both BB and TDK.

__________________"Every time you open that dvd box to watch the Dark Knight, it's actually a slice of baloney. the real movie is in your mind and Nolan performed an Inception on all of us." - tacit-ronin-

And I actually really enjoy the ferry sequence overall, I'm not one of those who thinks it wasn't a good idea for the third act. I loved the "what would I do in this situation?" angle to it, but it was definitely kind of odd to rest so much drama on the shoulders of mediocre to bad actors in the climax of the film.

So yeah, I completely agree shauner. This was one of the things my friends and I immediately noted as a positive when we walked out of TDKR.

I am aware Rachel had something to do with Bruce quitting as Bruce, but not quitting as Batman. That was all on the Dent Act.

Quote:

Yes. treated his own elements as if they were an obstacle, so he decided not to give them the importance they had in the previous movie. Or even more, as it should be as elements like that in a story should grow so the plot thickens.

There was importance in the third film, but he didn't want to trace all the steps on the resolution of it all since there were bigger things to focus in the third film. At least Nolan did mention to have some sort of resolution.

Quote:

As I told Joker, the member, that could mean that Alfred is trying to destroy his world. But again, I'd have to see the scene again.

It doesn't mean that though. Bruce is aware that Alfred is telling the truth by that time. He questioned it at first, saying Alfred is lying, but in that statement, Bruce is all aware that Alfred is indeed telling the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tequilla

Yup , Nolan should say something to his AD. The extras in Dark Knight...god damn !

And I actually really enjoy the ferry sequence overall, I'm not one of those who thinks it wasn't a good idea for the third act. I loved the "what would I do in this situation?" angle to it, but it was definitely kind of odd to rest so much drama on the shoulders of mediocre to bad actors in the climax of the film.

So yeah, I completely agree shauner. This was one of the things my friends and I immediately noted as a positive when we walked out of TDKR.

exactly!

Yeah, I never understood the "no more dead cops" complaint. It's mainly the ferries. But ive warmed up to it, it's still a great third act. TDKR was great in that there were no extras at the center of all the chaos in the 3rd act. That was a relief. I have to say, I enjoy that whole ending, chase scene, etc more than the 3rd act action sequences from BB or TDK. It tops it for me.

When I think of it now, I wouldn't change a thing about this trilogy. Im not the creator, it's their work, not mine. Whatever we don't get in a Batman movie, we're bound to get in another one.

I still give TDKR a top of the line rating. Ive seen it QUITE a few times since it's been out on Blu-ray and I don't care about the popular opinion around here, I enjoy Rises more than Dark Knight or Begins.

__________________"Every time you open that dvd box to watch the Dark Knight, it's actually a slice of baloney. the real movie is in your mind and Nolan performed an Inception on all of us." - tacit-ronin-

I've seen the movie enough now that I've started noticed how bad some of the fighting is in the background of the final brawl on the steps of city hall. There's some brutally bad fighting going on which is frustrating to see when the focus should be elsewhere. I wish they would of surrounded Bane and Batman with choreographed stunt men and left the clueless extras in the far background for background visuals.

I am aware Rachel had something to do with Bruce quitting as Bruce, but not quitting as Batman. That was all on the Dent Act.

Yes, Rachel was Bruce's reason for keep being Batman, not to quit as I had said before.

Alfred is telling Bruce he has to quit, that he "used to talk about a life beyond that awful cave" to which Bruce replies, "Rachel died knowing that we had decided to be together. THAT was my life beyond the cave. I can't just move on. She didn't."

So all the same, Bruce's decisions had been based on Alfred's lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

There was importance in the third film, but he didn't want to trace all the steps on the resolution of it all since there were bigger things to focus in the third film. At least Nolan did mention to have some sort of resolution.

Mentioning them is not developing them. As a storyteller he can't diminish important elements of the story he has placed there himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

It doesn't mean that though. Bruce is aware that Alfred is telling the truth by that time. He questioned it at first, saying Alfred is lying, but in that statement, Bruce is all aware that Alfred is indeed telling the truth.

Bruce says "How dare you USE Rachel to try to stop me?" Then Alfred suggests that is the truth and Bruce, as calm as he was before, says

Because if Bruce had believed Alfred... why did that have no effect whatsoever in Bruce's life after that conversation? He kept on like if he hadn't believed him. Rachel choosing Bruce or choosing Dent, Bruce kept being Batman (after he retook the role).

Was anyone else bothered by the heard mentality of the people of Gotham in this film? I felt to me that Nolan sacrificed continuity for an extremely overhanded message. It really bothered me that at the end war we only see Cops fight against the Mercenaries. In BB it is set up that Gotham is a lost cause and that only a very few people (Bruce, Rachel, Gordon) see any chance of redemption in the city for its people. In TDK this was continued on with Dent believing this and the Joker believing in the opposite. In fact one of the greatest moments in TDK is when we see that Bruce's faith IS justified and that the people have begun to change and pull them selves out of the metaphorical pit. Then in TDKR all that's flushed away for Nolan's message. I get the people would be intimidated by Bane and would be hiding out, but the only people we see fighting Bane in secret or at the end are cops. I feel that there should have been common people mixed in with the cops. My random thoughs.

Was anyone else bothered by the heard mentality of the people of Gotham in this film? I felt to me that Nolan sacrificed continuity for an extremely overhanded message. It really bothered me that at the end war we only see Cops fight against the Mercenaries. In BB it is set up that Gotham is a lost cause and that only a very few people (Bruce, Rachel, Gordon) see any chance of redemption in the city for its people. In TDK this was continued on with Dent believing this and the Joker believing in the opposite. In fact one of the greatest moments in TDK is when we see that Bruce's faith IS justified and that the people have begun to change and pull them selves out of the metaphorical pit. Then in TDKR all that's flushed away for Nolan's message. I get the people would be intimidated by Bane and would be hiding out, but the only people we see fighting Bane in secret or at the end are cops. I feel that there should have been common people mixed in with the cops. My random thoughs.

Nolan didn't care enough to give Gotham any personality in TDKR. What you said there was exactly what we were just discussing. Bad extras or not, Nolan succeeded in making Gotham's people a voice to see who Bruce was fighting for, and how they were reacting to the events in their city.

All that was flushed down the crapper in TDKR. I didn't give a hoot about Gotham in Rises.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

I don't think the film is condemning ordinary, unarmed citizens for bring afraid of a terrorist army with a nuclear bomb. So I don't get what the supposed "message" is there.

Mind you, in TDK the regular citizens on the boat voted to blow the other one up by a pretty wide margin. The reason they didn't? Fear. No one had the guts to get their hands dirty. I thought the "frozen by fear" reaction we saw in TDKR was a logical extension of the "results" of the ferry experiment.

Also, considering how marred the police force was by corruption in the first two films, and then the fact that they had been a part of serving under a corrupted police state, it felt like the appropriate redemption for the cops to become Gotham's army at the end and lay down their lives for the city. The normal citizens of Gotham never needed redemption- in all three movies they simply needed inspiration.

I know people tend to think of Gotham as its own character in Batman stories, but it's kind of hard to give the entire populace of a sprawling metropolis a full "arc" so to speak. In the end it is Bruce's life story and the story of how he affects change in his city. Not the story of every day Gotham citizens growing to be better people- even if that may indeed be at least a partial outcome of the events of the story.

I don't see that point, Joker. The extras didn't make me give a damn about the city, horrible acting doesn't make me care, it makes me not care. I just cared because it's Gotham and it was portrayed in a way where it could be my city. The fact that TDKR didn't show the people yet the other films showed bad extras, doesn't change anything. I cared for Gotham in all 3 movies, and showing the people reacting isn't what made me care. I cared regardless.

__________________"Every time you open that dvd box to watch the Dark Knight, it's actually a slice of baloney. the real movie is in your mind and Nolan performed an Inception on all of us." - tacit-ronin-

I don't see that point, Joker. The extras didn't make me give a damn about the city, horrible acting doesn't make me care, it makes me not care. I just cared because it's Gotham and it was portrayed in a way where it could be my city. The fact that TDKR didn't show the people yet the other films showed bad extras, doesn't change anything. I cared for Gotham in all 3 movies, and showing the people reacting isn't what made me care. I cared regardless.

That's your loss.

I saw panicked people at Dent's press conference hating Batman and fearing Joker. Scared citizens in the bar watching Joker on TV. The local newscaster grilling the Mayor on TV over Batman's impact on Gotham. Panicked conflicted citizens on the ferry etc. It all gave Gotham a personality.

I didn't automatically care about Gotham just because Bruce did in BB and TDK. Nolan gave me reasons to. I wish I could say the same about TDKR.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

Yes, Rachel was Bruce's reason for keep being Batman, not to quit as I had said before.

Alfred is telling Bruce he has to quit, that he "used to talk about a life beyond that awful cave" to which Bruce replies, "Rachel died knowing that we had decided to be together. THAT was my life beyond the cave. I can't just move on. She didn't."

So all the same, Bruce's decisions had been based on Alfred's lie.

Yep, exactly. Bruce would have quit as Batman if Gotham became a safer place and would have moved on with Rachel, a luxury that didn't happen, but it's for the best when Rachel wasn't in love with Bruce as it was the other way around.

Quote:

Mentioning them is not developing them. As a storyteller he can't diminish important elements of the story he has placed there himself.

Bringing them to light, giving them a resolution such as revealing the Dent Act was a lie, revealing that Dent was a murderer and then revealing that Rachel chose to be with Dent, that is developing them. A clear resolution of the truth having its day which is what Alfred spoke about to Bruce.

Quote:

Bruce says "How dare you USE Rachel to try to stop me?" Then Alfred suggests that is the truth and Bruce, as calm as he was before, says

Because if Bruce had believed Alfred... why did that have no effect whatsoever in Bruce's life after that conversation? He kept on like if he hadn't believed him. Rachel choosing Bruce or choosing Dent, Bruce kept being Batman (after he retook the role).

I don't find it really vague, but if you do, I'd suggest watch the film again as it doesn't seem vague at all, but perhaps people could see how it could be since Rachel isn't mentioned again, or at least regarding the letter.

Although, why do you think Bruce continued to not believe Alfred? When Talia/Miranda brings up Rachel's picture, Bruce doesn't say a word and places the picture down. He knows full well that he believed a lie for eight years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloverfan98

Was anyone else bothered by the heard mentality of the people of Gotham in this film? I felt to me that Nolan sacrificed continuity for an extremely overhanded message. It really bothered me that at the end war we only see Cops fight against the Mercenaries. In BB it is set up that Gotham is a lost cause and that only a very few people (Bruce, Rachel, Gordon) see any chance of redemption in the city for its people. In TDK this was continued on with Dent believing this and the Joker believing in the opposite. In fact one of the greatest moments in TDK is when we see that Bruce's faith IS justified and that the people have begun to change and pull them selves out of the metaphorical pit. Then in TDKR all that's flushed away for Nolan's message. I get the people would be intimidated by Bane and would be hiding out, but the only people we see fighting Bane in secret or at the end are cops. I feel that there should have been common people mixed in with the cops. My random thoughs.

Imo, it should have been the cops fighting against Bane's men and the prisoners. Regular citizens wouldn't do it just because Batman needed an army, not just hopeful citizens that couldn't do as much. Batman finally having all of the GCPD on his side says wonders that he gained the police's trust by the end of the trilogy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shauner111

I don't see that point, Joker. The extras didn't make me give a damn about the city, horrible acting doesn't make me care, it makes me not care. I just cared because it's Gotham and it was portrayed in a way where it could be my city. The fact that TDKR didn't show the people yet the other films showed bad extras, doesn't change anything. I cared for Gotham in all 3 movies, and showing the people reacting isn't what made me care. I cared regardless.

Bleh...I for one am glad we did not get any ridiculous extras in TDKR. Everyone else besides Tiny was awful in the ferry scene.

Yep, exactly. Bruce would have quit as Batman if Gotham became a safer place and would have moved on with Rachel, a luxury that didn't happen, but it's for the best when Rachel wasn't in love with Bruce as it was the other way around.

Bringing them to light, giving them a resolution such as revealing the Dent Act was a lie, revealing that Dent was a murderer and then revealing that Rachel chose to be with Dent, that is developing them. A clear resolution of the truth having its day which is what Alfred spoke about to Bruce.

I don't find it really vague, but if you do, I'd suggest watch the film again as it doesn't seem vague at all, but perhaps people could see how it could be since Rachel isn't mentioned again, or at least regarding the letter.

Although, why do you think Bruce continued to not believe Alfred? When Talia/Miranda brings up Rachel's picture, Bruce doesn't say a word and places the picture down. He knows full well that he believed a lie for eight years.

Imo, it should have been the cops fighting against Bane's men and the prisoners. Regular citizens wouldn't do it just because Batman needed an army, not just hopeful citizens that couldn't do as much. Batman finally having all of the GCPD on his side says wonders that he gained the police's trust by the end of the trilogy.

Bleh...I for one am glad we did not get any ridiculous extras in TDKR. Everyone else besides Tiny was awful in the ferry scene.

But Batman as conceived by Bruce in BB was a symbol to inspire ALL the people of Gotham. His purpose wasn't to gain the trust of the police but inspire everyone in Gotham.

Just because he sets out to inspire Gotham as a whole does not mean that inspiration should make Gotham as a whole be vigilant and fight. They can be inspired in other ways such as cleaning the city, helping out their neighbors, etc.

When I bring up the cops, I am pertaining to the idea that he became this vigilante that Loeb wanted to take down, then it became a 50/50 situation where half of the police force thought he was doing good rather the other half didn't and he finally had the GCPD's support in the end when they became his army.

Just because he sets out to inspire Gotham as a whole does not mean that inspiration should make Gotham as a whole be vigilant and fight. They can be inspired in other ways such as cleaning the city, helping out their neighbors, etc.

When I bring up the cops, I am pertaining to the idea that he became this vigilante that Loeb wanted to take down, then it became a 50/50 situation where half of the police force thought he was doing good rather the other half didn't and he finally had the GCPD's support in the end when they became his army.

Couldn't agree more, especially the bolded. Bruce never wanted average, every day people to take up arms and fight alongside him...this was made explicitly clear in TDK. There are plenty of ways an every day citizen can be a positive force in the community without resorting to violence.

Yes, the circumstances were extreme in TDKR but that's the whole point...most people were afraid and holed up with their families, which is totally understandable. Death was only a button push away.

Bruce Wayne wanted to create a symbol that shows that people aren't afraid, but that does not mean making people fight, only raise awareness. It's like in the real world where people want others to be vigilant in speaking out loud if something bad is happening, not try to solve the problem with your fists. That physicality, that's for the cops if need to be, much like in TDKR, the war needed to be dealt with by the cops, not regular schmoes.

I saw panicked people at Dent's press conference hating Batman and fearing Joker. Scared citizens in the bar watching Joker on TV. The local newscaster grilling the Mayor on TV over Batman's impact on Gotham. Panicked conflicted citizens on the ferry etc. It all gave Gotham a personality.

I didn't automatically care about Gotham just because Bruce did in BB and TDK. Nolan gave me reasons to. I wish I could say the same about TDKR.

It's not my loss. More like my gain. Im thankful I didn't see bad extras. It's ultimately your loss if the Gotham extras won you over so much that you saw the city having so much personality, because you obviously were so invested that when TDKR rolled around without that kind of thing, you let yourself down.

It's certainly not my loss because I never cared for it to begin with, I didn't expect it in the third, nor was I bothered when I didn't see it in TDKR. My loss? Not at all.

__________________"Every time you open that dvd box to watch the Dark Knight, it's actually a slice of baloney. the real movie is in your mind and Nolan performed an Inception on all of us." - tacit-ronin-