Share this:

Comments

Happy Cannabinaceae: Allentown Friend has gotten his RepRap working. We’re visiting his family next weekend, but now this will be preceded by me going online and having a kilogram of filament shipped to his house.

The last time we visited, Friend had just about gotten things working reliably, so when we were getting ready to visit, I said to W.U., “Friend and I will probably spend the whole weekend trying to make parts”. She thought I was joking. I was half right. Friend and I spent the whole weekend drinking beer and trying to make parts.

I’ve noticed that B and T are still being pushed away and their experiences dismissed, and their validity for the cause is still attacked. I want to address that too in my essay because it is not right at all. It actually sickens me.

I wish, and hope I can find the root cause of all this in my research but sexuality and gender expression is so complicated I don’t think that there’s anything solid as a cause, just nebulous hatred and tribalism.

I’ve noticed that B and T are still being pushed away and their experiences dismissed, and their validity for the cause is still attacked.

Yeah, it still happens. I still run into people who insist that bisexuality is a myth, no such animal. And there are *always* people who insist that if a bisexual partners with someone of the opposite sex, they aren’t really bisexual.

Ruffles, they suck.
But I almost finished #1’s carnival outfit and thankfully the little one is happy with her sister’s old pirate outfit.

katenrala
I think this “Asexuals are the privileged people” stuff is a load of crap.
It’s bullshit. Historically, priviledged people aren’t the ones who were assumed to be asexual (probably apart from priests, although they weren’t), but having the right kind of sexuality. Heterosexual, babby-making, passively enduring or active.
Yes, especially gay men had and have their sexuality used against them, but that is surely not asexuals fault. The problem is mandatory, babby-making focussed, male-dominated heterosexuality, not asexuals.

Threadrupt, but for the latest conversation. I have no objection to the term sexual. As noted already, what other term could you use that is succinct?

—–

I came across this article about the oil-boom in North Dakota. Apparently the gas flare can be seen from space.A Mysterious Patch of Light

Six years ago, this region was close to empty. The few ranchers who lived here produced wheat, alfalfa, oats and corn. The U.S. Geological Survey knew there were oil deposits underground, but deep down, 2 miles below the surface. It wasn’t till this century that the industry developed a way to pull that oil to the surface at a cost that made it practical. Fracking, as you probably know, means pumping water and chemicals down pipes, fracturing the rock, releasing the oil. The technology is hugely controversial, in part because of those lights.

When oil comes to the surface, it often brings natural gas with it, and according to North Dakota’s Department of Mineral Resources, 29 percent of the natural gas now extracted in North Dakota is flared off. Gas isn’t as profitable as oil, and the energy companies don’t always build the pipes or systems to carry it away. For a year (with extensions), North Dakota allows drillers to burn gas, just let it flare. There are now so many gas wells burning fires in the North Dakota night, the fracking fields can be seen from deep space.

Home, home on the range.
Where the rigs and wildcatters play.
Where seldom is heard, a discouraging word
and the skies and water and wildlife and people aren’t nearly as important as big oil.

Okay, I’ve gotta admit, she makes several strong arguments, and I can definitely see where she’s coming from. Here too:

2. It’s slut-shaming and rape culture. I know this is a heavy charge. But it’s true. Calling people “sexuals” reduces them to an assumed willingness to have sex. Rape culture is all about doing exactly that. Like, if I had a nickel for every time I’d heard someone explain that a rape survivor couldn’t have been raped because they were “sexual” before and/or after their rape, I wouldn’t need student loans. Under rape culture, men can’t be raped because they “always want it”; women can’t be raped because they SECRETLY “always want it”. Simply expressing any sexual desire at all means you “always want it”; rape is never seen as serious because we are defined as always being “sexual”, regardless of the fact that having sexual desire doesn’t mean you always feel sexual/want sex all the time (And that’s not even getting INTO how rape culture and capitalism contribute to this by sexualizing women’s bodies, and bodies that are coded as women’s bodies, against our will). […]

4. It’s disempowering and disrespectful. When it comes to queer identities like homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc, self-determination is important. We come to these labels often through great personal struggle; through experiencing violence, through losing family members, through internalized hatred and fear. When we claim these labels publicly, we do so at great personal risk. In short, you should respect other peoples’ identities. Calling us all “sexuals” erases the sexual identities we have struggled so hard to own, and that is a shitty thing to do, regardless of why you’re doing it.

These, among others in the links you gave earlier, are substantive objections that do not simply reduce to “how dare you people stick a LABEL on US!”

So I was wondering if she is less averse to the term sexual people instead of sexuals (I was thinking of gay people as opposed to gays).

Can’t we have our own word when communicating to ourselves? Apparently not.

But you aren’t just communicating among yourselves. You’re frequently communicating in public, and often with others who aren’t yourselves. Putting aside the public forum aspect, surely you’re not suggesting that asexual people only use this term when talking to other asexual people.

If there is potential splash damage, to some sexual people, which affects them specifically because they are people of color, or queer, or sex workers, or rape victims and simultaneously sexual people, then it isn’t sufficient to justify any word X by saying it’s “your own word”. It’s important how others are affected.

I see a poll. It’s small, but not uselessly so. For those who don’t want to be called sexuals — and if we leave out the variants of non-asexual since you have a reasonable argument against it — the next most widely acceptable terms are:

I did see some obvious gatekeeping during my readings, like you mentioned. Some really offensive shit that I’d rather not repeat, unless someone is dying to know. But I can also see why some people can have legitimate objections to the noun sexuals, and there are alternatives.

Aratina:
Yes, I live in FL. I have full insurance, so I can get my windshield repaired for free. I just haven’t been able to keep my car in one location for long enough.

That’s understandable. I only know about it because a rock from an open-wheel trailer in front of me cracked my windshield at the exact moment I crossed the GA/FL border on the way to the FL coast, and when I called a windshield repair company about it later that day, they told me it was too bad I didn’t have FL insurance because windshield repair would then be free.

Dehydration…

…

…I’m having a hard time thinking of foods where the taste bothers me more than the texture. O.o

I honestly can’t think of a single flavour I actively dislike. I have flavours I like less than others or wish to encounter less often, or would mostly not choose if other options were available (blackcurrant*, smoked paprika), but I can’t come up with anything I simply do not like**. Bleh.

Re: “sexuals” as the identifier for non-asexuals. I’m grateful for the term, but I can see where using it as an adjective instead of a noun could be preferable, as SG outlines. Maybe there will be a language shift to refer to asexual people over asexuals as well? I’ve tried to ensure I’m inclusive in my language, but not knowing how to describe it has been difficult. This is simple and straightforward, and I appreciate being able to make a distinction easily.

Caine:

Yeah, it still happens. I still run into people who insist that bisexuality is a myth, no such animal. And there are *always* people who insist that if a bisexual partners with someone of the opposite sex, they aren’t really bisexual.

Been there. When my partner came out as trans, overnight I went from “bisexual genderqueer” to “straight woman” in the eyes of lesbian and gay acquaintances. Amazing how I became heteronormative and gender-conforming without changing a damn thing about myself or relationships.

::never going to catch up …::
.Tony, many many YAYs for the great working environment. Sounds wonderful.
.JAL, I hope the pain meds keep things under control until the next appointment and the work done then gets rid of the pain altogether.
.
Best medical wishes to the Horde, with extra special dermatological wishes to Nutmeg and Esteleth.
.
Scabies Celery.

Very well, I can’t call the whole generalized group of non-asexuals by their preferred terms so what’s a good word or two. “A person who experiences sexual attraction” is a crappy phrase as there are a group of asexuals who do feel sexual attraction, but they are still asexuals, of course you’ll see them maligned all the time as SLUT SHAMERS because it takes very specific circumstances for them to feel that.

*erased a furious rant about my personal experiences as a repulsed autistic raped asexual being erased and twisted again*

So what to call non-asexuals? Fine how about “non-asexuals” as barrel bottom scraping as it is since positive identification is verboten? It’s the second most accurate term I can think of at the moment even though it reads like garbage.

I hope I can come up with something better once I get some sleep.

May I ask what you think of asexuals strange gods before me ॐ? Are we a thorn in your side and the movement?

@Giliell, professional cynic

katenrala
I think this “Asexuals are the privileged people” stuff is a load of crap.
It’s bullshit. Historically, priviledged people aren’t the ones who were assumed to be asexual (probably apart from priests, although they weren’t), but having the right kind of sexuality. Heterosexual, babby-making, passively enduring or active.
Yes, especially gay men had and have their sexuality used against them, but that is surely not asexuals fault. The problem is mandatory, babby-making focussed, male-dominated heterosexuality, not asexuals.

Yeah, I just wish some of those who should accept us as allies because we share so much would understand that. It hurts a lot. I want to reach out, and will in my essay, but I feel that the gesture will be wasted. There’s too many haters, and Dan Savage, who is listened to, seemed kicked it all off from what my research revealed.

It feels futile to go up against that.

@Beatrice

Good night katenrala!
I didn’t participate in the conversation, but I found it very interesting to read.

Yeah, I think I’d prefer adjectives over nouns, too.
Generally, since those things are always just part of a person. A gay man is much more than being gay, to reduce anybody to one facet of their personality, especially their sexuality rubs me the wrong way.
I know, it’s just shorter to write “the gays” or “asexuals”, or “sexuals”, but I think we should take the time.

katenrala
If it helps, I think that we should be your allies. Because asexual people are often treated as “something wrong with you”, you just “need to get some experience” and “you’re an evolutionary dead end”.
Funny, reminds me of some other people.
Seriously, I’m as priviledged as you get as a woman (white, cis, straight, middle-class, married with two kids) and the few times some totally unimportant fringe group attacks my sexuality, that hurts. Can’t imagine how you deal with getting that shit 24/7.

Please don’t jump on me for saying this, either — I’ve had a whole lifetime of being labeled and shuffled aside for being different (disabled), and I don’t like other people imposing their labels, their ideas of who and what I am, on me. This is why I respect your right to choose your own labels, and why I expect you — regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, species, whatever — to respect my labels.

I don’t know why privileged people get so bogged down on labels, and I really don’t understand why anyone should care if you’re asexual. Not in that “oh, I don’t see color, or sexual preference or gender or any of those things” way, but in a “ok, we’ll accept bisexuals MAYBE, but asexuality is just a bridge too far” sort of way. I’ve seen it all over, every sort of sub-group wants acceptance for themselves but some members turn around and refuse to accept other groups as also being valid and worth accepting.

It’s like I said with the Harriet Hall, “equality feminism” nonsense: the purpose of blazing a trail is to make it easier for other people to follow your lead, you’re not supposed to break through a barricade and then set it back up for the people behind you. Once you manage to survive the traps, you’re not supposed to set them back up so that they can hurt other people. It isn’t a zero sum game, the more freedom and respect any group gets, the closer we get to a place where everyone gets real equality.

I dunno, maybe I’m way off base and being insulting, and if I am I apologize.

Yeah, I just wish some of those who should accept us as allies because we share so much would understand that. It hurts a lot. I want to reach out, and will in my essay, but I feel that the gesture will be wasted. There’s too many haters, and Dan Savage, who is listened to, seemed kicked it all off from what my research revealed.

I’ve seen some of that, though certainly not as much as those who are the targets of it. The vitriol tossed at people who are romantically attracted to people of the same gender, but are asexual comes immediately to mind. People saying that the asexuals are just in denial, or projecting internalized homophobia, and/or actually causing damage to the movement. And then those who have no romantic interests at all are actively dehumanized.

Though I’m not asexual, I was celibate by choice well into adulthood. A cousin once verbally attacked me in a restaurant, saying that I was going to become a “freak” and that I couldn’t really be part of humanity without ever having sex. I would be a weirdo, a creep, and probably a pervert. That’s the kind of shit asexuals have to deal with for life, not just one conversation, targeting them in a very fundamental and intimate way. So much of society and assumptions about people are based on their sexual behavior. If someone is asexual, they’re then dehumanized, seen as a danger, broken, perverted (this one still makes no fucking sense to me), told they can’t be a real man/woman, somehow incapable of being part of society, told they deserve to be alone forever, and so much more.

There is a hell of a lot more in common there with sexual and gender non-conforming minorities than is acknowledged. Playing “who has it worse” (as I’ve seen some in the LGBT movement do) isn’t helpful and it’s not how you build alliances. There is no one way to be a person. There is no one “right” way to have or lack sexual interest, to have or lack romantic interest, to have or lack a gender identity.

I’m really sorry for all the shit and erasure asexuals are subjected to, katenrala.

Very well, I can’t call the whole generalized group of non-asexuals by their preferred terms

I think you can get pretty close by listing sexual orientations other than asexual: “hetero, gay, bi, and pansexual folks”.

so what’s a good word or two.

I don’t know; missvoltairine said sexual people was not a big deal, as opposed to sexuals. I can see her point.

*erased a furious rant about my personal experiences as a repulsed autistic raped asexual being erased and twisted again*

Not by me. I reported another raped woman’s argument that the term plays into rape culture, and I said I could see where she’s coming from — this was for the sake of demonstrating that her arguments, whether right or wrong, have a substance which is not simply “how dare you people stick a label on us”.

You don’t agree with her. I assume you also have arguments for why the term doesn’t do that. If you provide them, I could evaluate both and tell you whose personal experiences I think are leading them to an incorrect conclusion, since you can’t both be right. I’d rather not do that — because I doubt I can convince myself strongly one way or the other — and even assuming that I’d say you’re right and her personal experiences are misleading her about rape culture, it is evident that the noun will remain offensive to a substantial number of people.

May I ask what you think of asexuals strange gods before me ॐ?

It’s a confusing question. Consider what I think of other gay men: I like some, dislike others, am vaguely positively disposed toward most, and hope that we all will live in a happier world tomorrow. I think the same of asexuals, and indeed most groups.

Look I’m physically disabled and mentally different, inhuman to many and spat in my face for it. I get it that am an ignoramus when it comes to human interaction too on top of being a overpriviledged shit.

If you agree with my character assessment what would you like me to do to please you? I’m honestly open for suggestions, I’m not being snarky as I know I’m a complete asshole and waste of meat and money and social infrastructure. I will try to avoid mistakes I made but do you need something material from me too? I’ll oblige if I can.

Not by me. I reported another raped woman’s argument that the term plays into rape culture, and I said I could see where she’s coming from — this was for the sake of demonstrating that her arguments, whether right or wrong, have a substance which is not simply “how dare you people stick a label on us”.

You don’t agree with her. I assume you also have arguments for why the term doesn’t do that. If you provide them, I could evaluate both and tell you whose personal experiences I think are leading them to an incorrect conclusion, since you can’t both be right. I’d rather not do that — because I doubt I can convince myself strongly one way or the other — and even assuming that I’d say you’re right and her personal experiences are misleading her about rape culture, it is evident that the noun will remain offensive to a substantial number of people.

I didn’t mean by you, I should have clarified that, I’m sorry. My experiences with this anti-asexual stuff goes back awhile and it is not just about that one blogger. But I’m sick of being the bad guy even as the other-side does not play fair, I’ve personally been on the receiving end of a lot of unwarranted abuse and it’s triggering to be called ignorant and have my experiences denied, downplayed, and minimized about the exact same experiences I share with these asexual detractors.

I don’t like them even if I’ll play by their rules, be nice, and try to suck up offenses to me and grow up as I’m apparently a fumbling child to them.

I’m no longer interested in argument. I’ll do as they wish me to because that’s the rules.

I’m just going to point out that this is the exact same argument I hear from people objecting to the term “cis.” Trying to find a way to refer to the majority without pathologizing the minority is not meant as an insult. We can work on the best way to describe the majority, but that term is going to be heavily influenced by the minority.

Our privilege as sexually oriented people makes us unaware of the fact that there even needs to be a term, just as the privilege of cis people as identifying with their assigned-at-birth gender made them unaware of the fact that there was a need for the term cis.

The kill-the-gays movement in Uganda is not over. This is not old news, it is news of a current anti-gay campaign funded by money donated by American evangelicals. American rabidly right-wing Christians are also providing missionaries, speakers, bill-writing expertise, anti-gay tours, etc.

Thanks to the absurd ideas peddled by American fundamentalists, we are constantly forced to respond to the myth — debunked long ago by scientists — that homosexuality leads to pedophilia. For years, the Christian right in America has exported its doctrine to Africa, and, along with it, homophobia. In Uganda, American evangelical Christians even held workshops and met with key officials to preach their message of hate shortly before a bill to impose the death penalty for homosexual conduct was introduced in Uganda’s Parliament in 2009. Two years later, despite my denunciation of all forms of child exploitation, David Bahati, the legislator who introduced the bill, as well as Foreign Minister Henry Okello Oryem and other top government officials, still don’t seem to grasp that being gay doesn’t equate to being a pedophile.

Very cumbersome when discussing the differences of experience between asexuals and everybody else.

You don’t agree with her. I assume you also have arguments for why the term doesn’t do that. If you provide them,

I can’t say what katenrala’s argument might be, but the ones that I’ll advance are that ‘sexual’ as opposed to ‘asexual’ is exactly the same linguistic process that led to ‘cis’ as opposed to ‘trans'; anyone who objects to one is objecting to the other as well, and their arguments still have to hold up there. Further, it is a perfectly accurate descriptive term which exactly covers the distinction that is being made with a precision rare in this type of discourse. Thirdly, it is directly cognate to ‘homosexual’, ‘bisexual’ etc. in terms of the axis of discussion. Finally, there’s no other term that has been presented which adequately captures the groups being discussed with no room for anyone to be left out, which is a constant problem when discussing sexual minorities generally, and sidetracking the discussion into listing all the various sexualities that aren’t asexual kind of detracts from the initial point, which is discussion issues relating to asexuals and asexuality.MM

I’m just going to point out that this is the exact same argument I hear from people objecting to the term “cis.”

Nah, s’cool. I’m just tired of people feeling like they have some kind of “right” to slap labels on other people, regardless of majority/minority status.

Call me disabled, call me handicapped, call me crippled, call me a fucking gimp, I don’t care — just don’t say I have “special needs”, don’t refer to the “handi-capable”, and for the love of gods, do NOT say I’m “differently abled”. All that feel-good PC bullshit was created by able-bodied people so they could feel some warm-fuzzies about “look how great we are, being all sensitive and inclusive” while still lording their able-bodied privilege over us and not being “inclusive” at all. We can worry about language after every building and sidewalk and bathroom is 100% ADA compliant.

Mellow Monkey

See above response to katenrala. I don’t care who is doing the labeling, I don’t like it, because it is, at the core, forcing (generic) your ideas of who and what I am (or should be) onto me, and that ain’t cool. Doesn’t matter which direction it’s coming from, it’s still not cool.

Again, this is coming from a lifetime of being labeled and pushed aside by able-bodied people who really should have known better. I kind of expect other marginalized minority types to understand this, but nope, apparently it’s a sign of privilege to ask that your right to self-label be respected.

I’m not sitting here telling LGBTQI or A folks how to label themselves, nor would I ever consider doing so — it’s rude! Can’t I have the same respect in return?

katenrala
Personally, I’d think that “sexual person” would fit best.
The “label problem”, guess that’s why I prefer adjectives instead of labels, but yeah, communication. I can clearly see the similarity between cis/trans – sexual/asexual people.
I can understand the dynamics at work that make underprivileged group A peck on underpriviledged group B, but personally, people’s obsession with the sexual identities and gender identities of people who are neither themselves nor their partner flies a bit over my head.

I’m not sitting here telling LGBTQI or A folks how to label themselves, nor would I ever consider doing so — it’s rude! Can’t I have the same respect in return?

All that feel-good PC bullshit was created by able-bodied people so they could feel some warm-fuzzies

*cough*
wanna bet that by calling them “able-bodied people”, you’ve just “labeled” a lot of GSM folks?

point being “no labels” is a horrible argument, because that’s just not how language works. But avoiding bad labels that insinuate someone is defined by a single characteristic is a good goal. hence, “sexual people” is better than “sexuals”, but there isn’t a good way to avoid the label altogether, any more than avoiding the cis/trans, able-bodied/disabled, etc. distinctions is reasonably possible.

Agreed. One of the responsibilities of an aware person is to recognize privilege and do what you can to alleviate the inequality someone lacking that privilege suffers from. Accepting the descriptive label of “sexual person” for the express purpose of discussing asexuality without pathologizing it is a pretty minor step.

‘sexual’ as opposed to ‘asexual’ is exactly the same linguistic process that led to ‘cis’ as opposed to ‘trans’;

What is the plural of cis? It is an adjective. It goes like this: cis people.

anyone who objects to one is objecting to the other as well,

Emphasizing someone’s cis-ness has not historically been used to justify rape, nor false accusations of sexual predation, like emphasizing someone’s sexual-ness has been. That’s what “why the term doesn’t do that” referred to: “I assume you also have arguments for why the term doesn’t [play into rape culture]”.

Finally, there’s no other term that has been presented which adequately captures the groups being discussed with no room for anyone to be left out,

“Non-asexual” in fact does, by the law of the excluded middle. But it is unacceptable to katenrala due to some rational arguments; likewise “sexuals” is unacceptable to others due to some rational arguments.

and sidetracking the discussion into listing all the various sexualities that aren’t asexual kind of detracts from the initial point, which is discussion issues relating to asexuals and asexuality.

The initial point here was the question whether the noun could be offensive.

Anyway, if the discussion goes “all sexual people experience X” then differentiation can be necessary. Not all discussions using this term are going to be only about asexual people.

If you don’t want people to use labels when referring to you, then people here won’t use labels when referring to you.
Since the label asexual already exists, I don’t see an issue in giving some sort of collective name to those who are not asexual.

The term “able-bodied” was coined by a non-disabled person, and is therefore a self-label.

but you’re not using it as a self-label, you’re using it to label others. and at the same time, there’s plenty of sexual people who find that an appropriate self-label. you can’t have it both ways, you know

SGBM
Regarding the adjective/noun thing, if ‘asexuals’ is a correct usage, then ‘sexuals’ ought to be, but I don’t care enough to make anything of it if folks prefer the adjectival construction. I personally see them as essentially semantically equivalent,(Which is why I was treating them as the same in my argument) but I understand that there are arguments to the contrary, so when people have a significant preference for one vs the other I generally go with it. Basically what I’m saying is, no I can’t address your further arguments right now, and rather than trying to, I’m just going to go with the flow and say we should use ‘sexual persons(/people/folk/etc)’ for this purpose.

WMDkitty
The basic rule here amounts to one of privilege gradient; people higher on the gradient have very limited scope for criticizing the terminology that is used by people lower on the privilege scale; put differently, I don’t get to complain about you saying ‘able-bodied’, you don’t get to complain about me saying ‘straight’*, neither of us gets to complain about ‘cis,’ and as far as I can see we’ve got no grounds to complain about ‘sexual’ either, leaving aside the noun/adjective problem above.

*It is my understanding that you are female-identified and androphilic; if I am wrong in this, please correct me.

Regarding the adjective/noun thing, if ‘asexuals’ is a correct usage, then ‘sexuals’ ought to be,

I agree. People use ‘bisexuals’, ‘transsexuals’, ‘gays’, ‘lesbians’ and ‘straights’ all the damn times. I see it right here often enough, and what I don’t see is a major protest about it and insistence of attaching ‘people’ to all those.

but I don’t care enough to make anything of it if folks prefer the adjectival construction.

Yeah, it’s not a fight worth having, I’ll go with the flow. That said, there’s a fair amount of hypocrisy working here, too.

WMDKitty, I understand your desire to rest unlabeled, however, we all get to wear labels, that’s life. In your rush to get your point made, I think you missed the fact that Katenrala is both disabled and terminal and caused some anger and hurt there, unwittingly.

Labels are important. But I would probably need to be familiar with several of the branches of English (British, Merican, Aussie) to come up with a term that is value-neutral everywhere.
— — — — — — — —
A kick-ass little book: “Ack-Ack Macaque” http://www.amazon.com/Ack-Ack-Macaque-Gareth-L-Powell/dp/1781080607/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1359238674&sr=1-1&keywords=Ack-Ack+Macaque
.
A grumpy hybrid of Hellboy and Biggles shoots down Messerschmitts with his Spitfire when he is not whacking Nazi ninjas on the ground. Then he discovers he is actually trapped inside a VR game, gets angry, breaks out and starts to kick *real* ass.
Meanwhile in a parallel history it is 2059 and supervillains are trying to start World War Three… Robots! Zeppelins! Global conspiracies!
— — — — — — — — — —
Nice clip from Fox News at Ed Brayton’s blog. It is OK to call people Nazis except when it isn’t.

I agree. People use ‘bisexuals’, ‘transsexuals’, ‘gays’, ‘lesbians’ and ‘straights’ all the damn times. I see it right here often enough, and what I don’t see is a major protest about it and insistence of attaching ‘people’ to all those.

There are logical reasons to use all of those terms as adjectives and logical reasons to protest any of those terms being used as nouns. I’ve seen some really bitter, nasty, angry fights over people using any form of trans* as a noun. But, really, colloquially, people noun* all of those labels and we do it ourselves here every day. You’re right.

I also don’t think it’s a worthwhile fight, though. Frankly, any label asexuals are already comfortable using is all right by me. I’ve spent my afternoon reading various Asexuality 101 pages and working through the Asexuality Archive and I’ve seen non-asexual, sexual people, and sexuals most often. There isn’t a single term set in stone, but it’s clear all of those are already in widespread, comfortable use. I’m happy with any of them, because just as with cis, it’s not something you have to walk around using every fucking day and write down on your driver’s license. It’s there for a very specific type of conversation.

Pteryxx
Regarding Denisovans and Neanderthals I read in Science that Svante Pääbo’s team at Max Planck Institute are making more headway in unravreling fossil DNA.
A student named Matthias Meyer has found a method to deal with single-strand nucleotides that speeds up the proces. He has sequenced 99% of the the Denisovan DNA once, and 92% 20 times. He will begin work on the Neanderthal genome next.

I’m straight and cis, so take this with the necessary salt, but would *sexual be significantly different from sexual to not obscure the significant critique of viewing some people as sexual-and-so-unrapable? Really, very few people identify as willing to have sex with any takers, but most of us identify as something plus sexual.

Deoridhe, I had actually just seen *sexual used on a blog about asexuality.

I really like that, as it both makes the distinction as the antonym of asexual while also having that wildcard in there to include all the sexualities, making it distinct from the word sexual in any other use.

Failing to recognize that other people feel differently from you, failing to recognize that other people can be motivated by things other than the things that motivate you, is an egocentric fallacy. Failing to recognize that creativity and passion can come from avenues other than sexuality is a huge chasm in your ability to understand others.

You want an example of a fantastically creative person who isn’t driven by sexuality? Look at Emilie Autumn. Hell, look at me. I haven’t got much published yet besides this blog, but I am furiously working on it. I have to create, you guys. I have to write. I am passionate about making the world a better place, and to that end I will strive to annihilate misunderstandings and create human connection through my writing, even to the detriment of other areas of my life. How dare anyone call me passionless.

I think a big part of the reason why people think that asexual people are passionless is that they’re unable to conceive of passion in a non-romantic context, and also to a large extent, unable to fully separate love from sex. They’re different processes. I would suggest that love, being a neurochemical brain state similar to OCD, is as much if not more likely to be the motivation behind great works of art. For a lot of people, it’s probably motivated by both, but which is the stronger of the two? I argue that for many people it’s actually love, but it gets subsumed under the heading of sexuality without recognition that while the two often go together, they really are separate processes.

Pteryxx had a rather nasty reaction to that one, on the <— previous page. I have to say I don't much care for it, either. I don't care for the use of a symbol and that one in particular, as a fair amount of people involved in atheism+ have been using * attached to atheist as a means of signifying asshole. So that would be a no from me.

Wooly Bumblebee? Yeah, sounds about right. They wear being shitty people as a badge of honor… probably screaming “FREEDOM!!!” the whole time, as though the point of freedom is to do the worst things possible to prove that no one else is the boss of you.

*eyetwitch* That bothers me. A lot. On two counts, actually. The “women provoke abuse” part is just… ugh, no, no, that’s one of those tropes that just enables abusers and lets them think that the victim “deserves it”. The “because being beaten turns them on” is distinctly anti-kink and, once again, promotes the idea that the victim “really wanted it” and is now saying differently for some unknown ulterior “misandric” motive.

“women provoke abuse because being beaten turns them on” …. Maybe it’s a good thing I’m not able to keep up to date on EVERYTHING on FTB. I missed that putrid projectile of …. I’m at a loss to continue…

When someone says “women provoke abuse” it doesn’t really matter what ridiculous “because” they stick on the end of it.

Oh, you should read the post at Manboobz. A certain person, another feMRA, goes on a length about that. About a couple she used to hear (lived above her), and the woman would always be following the man about, yelling, cussing, yada, yada, yada, so you know, she was asking for it.

I guess there are two schools of thought on the subject: there are people who have been hurt and think that’s a bad thing and would never wish it on anyone else, and people who have been hurt and internalize the horrible dehumanization behind it and rationalize it by claiming that people get hurt because they deserve it in some way. The first group has empathy and engages with other people with respect and decency, and the other group does not. The first group starts by treating themselves decently first, and the second group holds themselves in contempt and therefore has nothing humane for anyone else either.

Now Ms Bumblefuckwit will be able to spew her bile to even more people. Hmm, one hopes this backfires on her.
I wonder why she was brought on to AVfM…perhaps to say “look, we are not a hate group. We love women. We have one as our communications director!”

Since the word sexual causes hurt and I’m not allowed to question the harm I cause as anti-oppression rules state, I think the suggested +sexual person(s)/people and asexual(s) constructions should be okay, unless that’s still wrong to you.

I do feel the + intones a positive marker, as if being a +sexual person is the proper state of being compared to asexual even though it also implies an addition, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc; so I’ll swallow my feelings in order to please people who’d otherwise toss my essay across the room and lay into me again as just another asexual bigot.

I’ve been layed into merely for the fact I’m asexual as others carry a lot of baggage about us and don’t understand how any human could be asexual; should I disengage if that happens or am I allowed to defend my person and character when that happens? If I cause harm for just being would it be best if I just go away instead of causing more harm by trying to argue that my existence is not a negativism? My existence is already hurtful so it seems to violate the rules to argue that I shouldn’t be considered hurtful just for being.

Also, an esteemed straight feminist blogger who sometimes posts here at Pharyngula has told me that I, and other asexuals, must come out of the closet immediately (as per Dan Savage who she defers to) before the date even begins to anyone I may hypothetically have a date with regardless of perceived danger in doing so lest we deceive the person we may be dating. Are they correct to demand such a thing?

Tony, AVfM has a bunch of women involved… the same way that Fox “News” hires as many women and black people and Hispanic people and gay people and “Democrats” as they can find. It is like a gag from The Onion: “Lone Black Republican in Mississippi Is Guest of Honor at Every Event” or some such. There’s always a certain amount of easy status to be had by finding people who hate a group you belong to, and allowing them to use you as a shield against bigotry claims.

I do feel the + intones a positive marker, as if being a +sexual person is the proper state of being compared to asexual even though it also implies an addition, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc; so I’ll swallow my feelings in order to please people who’d otherwise toss my essay across the room and lay into me again as just another asexual bigot.

I agree, the + is problematic. Shit. We can keep working on this, or just go with NASPs / SPs. Perhaps that’s best. I do think there’s way too much fucking emphasis here on the potentially hurt feelings of the majority and I do not think that’s right or okay.

I’ve been layed into merely for the fact I’m asexual as others carry a lot of baggage about us and don’t understand how any human could be asexual; should I disengage if that happens or am I allowed to defend my person and character when that happens? If I cause harm for just being would it be best if I just go away instead of causing more harm by trying to argue that my existence is not a negativism? My existence is already hurtful so it seems to violate the rules to argue that I shouldn’t be considered hurtful just for being.

I don’t think you should take any shit from anyone, and that includes those who feel they are the final arbiter of proper language.

Forgive me if I’m out of line for saying so, but it seems to me like this conversation is hurting you a whole bunch. You shouldn’t have to swallow your feelings or suffer because other people make you feel like they have a right to their thoughts and feelings and you don’t. I don’t believe that other people here mean to hurt you… but as we’re fond of saying “intent isn’t fucking magic” and not meaning doesn’t equal not hurting.

I’m sorry if anything I said contributed to your hurt, and I hope everyone else feels the same. Also, seriously… can I buy you a snazzy hat*? I’m sort of the “can I buy you a snazzy hat” person around here, just ask Tony. It isn’t much, but it is what I got.

*Or a Surly-Ramic, I’m not picky. The quicker you say “yes” the faster I can get it shipped out. :)

katenrala
You should stay.
re dating
If a date is assumed to be a precursor to sexual activity, then it is probably best to make sure there are no illusions.
If a date is dinner and conversation then sexual preference is not involved.

I do feel the + intones a positive marker, as if being a +sexual person is the proper state of being compared to asexual

I think that’s a valid problem with it. I’m just going to accept anything that’s comfortable for asexuals to use. What works for you is way more important when describing situations like this.

If I cause harm for just being would it be best if I just go away instead of causing more harm by trying to argue that my existence is not a negativism?

Please, please don’t go away. If any of us are hurting you from a place of privilege, we need to be told that. It’s not your fault if anyone is doing so. I am sincerely sorry if I’ve said anything that has contributed to this. It’s not a topic I know much about (and having gone on a reading frenzy today, I can see just how ignorant I am) and I really do not want to be hurtful.

Are they correct to demand such a thing?

No, and Dan Savage is incredibly privileged and short-sighted when it comes to topics like these.

I’m threadrupt, so I’m not going to weigh in on the label discussion, but I feel comfortable answering this one off the cuff, Katrenrala:

I, and other asexuals, must come out of the closet immediately (as per Dan Savage who she defers to) before the date even begins to anyone I may hypothetically have a date with regardless of perceived danger in doing so lest we deceive the person we may be dating. Are they correct to demand such a thing?

No. First and foremost, you need to take your own security and comfort into account. You don’t owe anyone your life story or information about your intimate feelings on the 10th date, let alone the first. The whole deception idea just smacks of entitlement–as though agreeing to go on a date with someone is a kind of proto-consent to sex with that person. On this issue, Dan Savage is just wrong.

I just dropped by to announce some positive news. The Ontario Liberal party has elected a new leader who now becomes premier of Ontario. Two women were the two front-runners (yay!), and Kathleen Wynne won. Wynne is also openly gay, the first openly LGBTQ Canadian premier (yay!). We now have 4 provincial premiers who are women (out of 10), plus one out of three territories (yay!).

The whole deception idea just smacks of entitlement–as though agreeing to go on a date with someone is a kind of proto-consent to sex with that person.

THIS ^ for the win. It’s exactly that. It’s the same as when you hear men joking about how a woman knows immediately on a date whether or not he’s gonna get laid. That’s a bunch of shit, too. Most people figure out if there is chemistry there, and what *kind* chemistry – mental, emotional, physical, one, all or any combination. That’s not saying there’s going to automagically be sex going on. Perhaps some people operate that way, however, it’s nonsense to extrapolate that to everyone else.

When going on a date, you have no idea if you’re ever going to see the person again, let alone for date #2, so I see zero point to spilling such intimate detail under a demand for “full disclosure”. Once you’re on the way to a potential relationship, then yes, it’s necessary to disclose such a fact.

The Ontario Liberal party has elected a new leader who now becomes premier of Ontario. Two women were the two front-runners (yay!), and Kathleen Wynne won. Wynne is also openly gay, the first openly LGBTQ Canadian premier (yay!). We now have 4 provincial premiers who are women (out of 10), plus one out of three territories (yay!).

katenrala: I’ve been layed into merely for the fact I’m asexual as others carry a lot of baggage about us and don’t understand how any human could be asexual; should I disengage if that happens or am I allowed to defend my person and character when that happens?

The basis of extensive discussion of semantics is to try to take everything into account while coming up with terms that are as neutral as possible (I have to admit a certain attraction for $exual, honestly, despite the commodity connotations; it makes my geek giggle), which given there isn’t actually a neutral is pretty difficult.

It sounds like what you’ve experienced isn’t people disagreeing on a semantic level, which can get nitpicky and persnickity, but rather people being outright offensive and denying your right to self-identify and be secure and supported in your self-identification; that’s a whole other kind of asshole.

Whether you disengage or engage should be about what you have the energy for – I am firmly on the side of “no one is obliged to stay for abuse of their person” in any discussion. If other people have baggage, it’s their baggage and they’re wrong. If they insult you based on being wrong, that doesn’t make them right and you wrong because they have no knowledge of your internal state, and so they should simply shush on the matter, and possibly be locked barefoot in a room full of legos with very sharp edges.

If you want to defend yourself, feel free to as far as I’m concerned, but honestly I don’t have the right to give you permission – nor does anyone else. Feel free to tell me to shut up if this is intrusive, but it seems like you feel you don’t have the right to defend yourself and who you are because the prejudice you’ve faced is at the hands of other people who face oppression. Facing oppression, unfortunately, doesn’t make one particularly good at noticing when they are oppressing others, that’s part of why it becomes important to cultivate a culture of mutual support even when one doesn’t understand in order to learn about all of our blind spots.

Personally, I’m deeply grateful you brought up this issue because I know relatively little about the asexual part of sexual identities, and so I found learning about some of the details and things we need to consider really interesting, but it’s your life and your pain and my curiosity is not a valid excuse for causing any pain to you.

The whole deception idea just smacks of entitlement–as though agreeing to go on a date with someone is a kind of proto-consent to sex with that person.

And it’s conflating asexuality with celibacy, when not all asexuals are necessarily celibate. Things like this come up when you’re communicating about and negotiating for a relationship, not on a first date.

Dan Savage gave similar advice to a young gay trans man (I think he was only eighteen), who didn’t provide “full disclosure” until two weeks after he met an older man online, which was too long in Savage’s estimation. It’s just clueless and dangerous.

As far as the date/disclosure thing: as a straight cis male clinically depressed person thingy, I can tell you that my favorite date has always been the lunch date. Because the lunch date doesn’t lead to sex because who has sex at 12:25 in the afternoon with someone they’ve known since 11:35? Because patriarchy hurts men too, that’s why.

I figured that out way before I figured out the finer details of.. reality, really. But earlier I was a decent enough human being to avoid the obvious bad things like cornering people for sex, in some part because I didn’t want to be cornered myself. Empathy seems hard for some people, but seems pretty simple to me.

My email addy is my nym with no spaces at the Google mail dot com. I would feel deeply honored if you would send me a mail with your mailing address so that I can send you a token of membership into the Lounge. These folks have done for me, and I’m only paying it forward so please allow me to do this, OK?

Deoridhe @610:
That comment was full of winning empathy. People like you give me hope for our species. Thank you.
****
I find I am attracted to our jack of all trades guy (seriously, he does the bookkeeping, accounting, PR, computer technicial, handyman and more). I recognize qualities in him that, in years past, would have turned me off. He is effeminate to some degree. That is no longer a barrier to my attraction to someone (though I hope to get to the point where I do not even notice how ‘manly’ or ‘womanly’ a guy is. It is hard to shake these damn societal dictates on gender, but I won’t give up). I thought about it today and realized he has grown on me as I have become aware of his many skills. I have no idea why, but I feel like my tastes are evolving. In previous years the focus on attraction was disproportionately on physical appearance. As I got older, I began to recognize the value of communication skills, empathy, a progressive value system, and an outspoken nature. Now I may need to add skill set to that list.
I used to be so worried that as I got older, I would find fewer and fewer men I would be attracted to, but that hasn’t been the case. My tastes have changed and refined, as well as expanded.
(Oh, the tech+ guy has a hubby. So nothing can happen there.)

Thanks Tony, and I want you to know that if ever/whenever you find yourself on this side of the country, you’re welcome to stop by and spend the night or the weekend. You’ve been a real friend to me when I needed it, and that gets you all sorts of perks. I’ll even share the good hooch! :)

I thought the good news was that you were dropping by! Always good to see you here! You’re one of the always-welcome voices in our little community.

Aww, shucks. Now I got me some warm fuzzies.

Caine:

When going on a date, you have no idea if you’re ever going to see the person again, let alone for date #2, so I see zero point to spilling such intimate detail under a demand for “full disclosure”. Once you’re on the way to a potential relationship, then yes, it’s necessary to disclose such a fact.

And maybe not even then? It depends on the type of relationship and what you and the other person are looking for out of it. As I see it, disclosure of one’s private, intimate information happens gradually over time as two people get to know one another, and it’s up to the individual to determine when or even if intimate information is necessary and safe to impart. I think the only exception is if there are third parties who may be fundamentally affected by the relationship (e.g. disclosure about being in a supposed-to-be-committed monogamous relationship with someone else, being in a committed open relationship, having young children in one’s care etc.).

Wow. I’m jealous. Very jealous.

Cool, eh? Does it make up for Harper? Alas, I must say no, not so much. But yes, it’s a sign that we’re still inching forward (yay!). And it almost makes me forget about Rob “The Buffoon” Ford, Mayor of the Centre of the Universe, winning his conflict of interest appeal on Friday. Jupiter’s Thunderbolt, that guy makes me choke. Also, totally lets me forgive the Leafs from losing. Again.

And maybe not even then? It depends on the type of relationship and what you and the other person are looking for out of it.

Yes, that’s very true.

As I see it, disclosure of one’s private, intimate information happens gradually over time as two people get to know one another, and it’s up to the individual to determine when or even if intimate information is necessary and safe to impart.

Exactly. I completely agree with all of that. As with all things, it’s also highly dependent on the individuals involved. Some people move fast in developing relationships, some people move slowly, some people are in the middle, yada, yada, yada. That’s the reason I get so annoyed with people who insist on generalizing such complexities.

…if “sexuals” feeds into rape culture because certain people are considered “unrapable” due to their sexuality, isn’t the problem with that assumption? This sounds a little like the “We can’t tell kids being gay is normal because then they’ll come out and people will pick on them!” reasoning. :/

It’s more like the “don’t do splash damage” rule, in my opinion. I’d consider telling people to deny their sexual attraction and hide it due to threats of violence as categorically different from determining words to be used in a discussion of complex issues.

It looks like this image here and that might be my model, but the letters are all little and it’s dark in here. My phone-fantastic-human got it for me, and I love it like a loving thing that loves. It sits around my neck, the earbuds are insanely comfortable (I need to see if I can link it to my computer and ipod, fo’srs), and they are held into the neckpiece with magnets, which are fun to play with. So far I haven’t broken it, which is impressive. My set apparently has a more limited range, but I’ve had no problem leaving my iphone in my purse and prancing around the living room listening to music and feeling very 20th century. It has little controls on it to answer the phone, skip songs, and raise the volume. When you turn it on and off, and an earbud is in your ear, it talks to you in this soothing woman’s voice. I like her and want to make her pancakes, or something. My phone-fantastic-human has an older set just like it and he loves it, but he bought me the latest one because he is way too damn good to me.

I am having the absolute BEST experience with the new job. I feel respected, desired, appreciated, welcome and just right at home. The restaurant is run by a lovely lesbian couple who feel like the cool older sisters I never had. We have several openly gay employees and I think they said there is a trans* man as well. Everyone I have met is friendly and accepting. I just…wow!

Awesome job, for an awesome guy!
:)

Sorry the date was so uninspiring.
–

Also, I went to a bar and totally socialized with like 7 different people :D

*high five*
–*hug* for JAL. Monday morning dentist appointment for me. Temp patch did not hold, and I’m lacerating the hell out of the back of my tongue.
:(
-

Regarding the adjective/noun thing, if ‘asexuals’ is a correct usage, then ‘sexuals’ ought to be

If straights is a correct usage (and I think it is), then gays ought to be, but I go into alert when I see that word. I have to look for other cues to determine whether the speaker is homophobic. And usually they are not — but in contrast, I am not at all alerted by the term gay people. There’s no a priori reason why this should be the case; it’s all learned heuristics.

+++++
Caine,

I agree. People use ‘bisexuals’, ‘transsexuals’, ‘gays’, ‘lesbians’ and ‘straights’ all the damn times. I see it right here often enough, and what I don’t see is a major protest about it and insistence of attaching ‘people’ to all those.

Of course, this wasn’t an instance of seeing someone use the term sexuals and deciding whether to say anything about it. It was an overt question about what is appropriate. Somebody asks me how I feel about the term gays, I’ll tell them. (For those who are thinking of asking: it’s what I said to Dalillama. It alerts me. I prefer not to be alerted, but I do not judge someone’s thoughts on this heuristic alone. There are also some common constructions, like Uganda’s ‘kill the gays’ bill and ironic invocations of teh gays, which I have habituated to.) Goodness, I already alluded to this when I said in 508 “I was thinking of gay people as opposed to gays“.

Take note now, and feel free to go look at the archives for how I’ve always talked: I avoid the terms bisexuals, transsexuals, transgenders, or gays. Likewise I avoid the term blacks. I don’t have the energy for every fight, but I have a habit of person-explicit language, and I have my reasons for it. I say bi people, and trans people, and gay people after which I think to myself that I probably should have said lesbians and gay men. (I lack enough knowledge of linguistic histories to say why no one uses the term lesbian people; obviously it’s just a historically contingent bit of societal habit, but I can’t say more specifically; but if it was sincerely asked of me I would. In fact there is a more obvious construction — lesbian women — which does get used and makes sense.) And I don’t care whether straights care about being called straights, but my habit is to say straight people anyway, probably because consistent habits are easier to maintain, which is probably the same reason I say white people instead of whites.

That said, there’s a fair amount of hypocrisy working here, too.

No, there isn’t. You can’t demonstrate it by pointing to a lack of objection to observed uses, alongside an explicit response to an explict question; these are different things.

+++++
Deoridhe,

would *sexual be significantly different from sexual to not obscure the significant critique of viewing some people as sexual-and-so-unrapable?

Not in spoken language, unfortunately. Most people don’t have a notion of how to vocalize *, and even those who do are likely to drop it, since splatsexual sounds so absurd.

(Similar problem with all proposed symbols here.)

+++++
katenrala,

I do feel the + intones a positive marker, as if being a +sexual person is the proper state of being compared to asexual even though it also implies an addition, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc; so I’ll swallow my feelings in order to please people who’d otherwise toss my essay across the room and lay into me again as just another asexual bigot.

In addition to what I just said to Deoridhe, I agree with you that the + suggests being better than –. That is why atheism+, after all. For this reason, I strongly suggest you should avoid it. The best outcome of using it would seem to be subtly reinforcing the idea that it’s better to be sexual. Worse, I can imagine your essay being co-opted to argue against other asexual people who object to the + designation.

If I were writing a style guide, I still think the listing method is best, but for considerations of brevity I think it would be reasonable to list only once in the beginning, “pansexual, homosexual, bisexual, and heterosexual people”, so that individual identities are affirmed instead of erased — and then using “sexual people” throughout. Using another listing in the last instance would be very effective.

I’ve been layed into merely for the fact I’m asexual as others carry a lot of baggage about us and don’t understand how any human could be asexual; should I disengage if that happens or am I allowed to defend my person and character when that happens? If I cause harm for just being would it be best if I just go away instead of causing more harm by trying to argue that my existence is not a negativism? My existence is already hurtful so it seems to violate the rules to argue that I shouldn’t be considered hurtful just for being.

If that’s the dynamic in the community you’re talking about, I would advise you to argue against it as much as you have the time and energy and spoons to do so, that is, so far as you are comfortable doing so. Obviously only you can know how your comfort there. I intend this as encouragement, not “permission”, and I hope it’s understood as such.

It sounds like you are participating in a forum which has rather strict notions of procedure-as-justice. It should be possible to raise the issue of how you’ve come to feel that your existence is hurtful. That is a big problem which deserves to be addressed.

+++++
Caine,

I do think there’s way too much fucking emphasis here on the potentially hurt feelings of the majority and I do not think that’s right or okay.

How about some intersectionality? “The majority” here is extremely varied and in many ways is only a numerical majority, not a sociological majority benefiting from institutional power.

Intersectionally, it matters how one minority group interacts with other minority groups. It matters that women and even moreso women of color are not suggested to be inherently receptive to sex; it matters that gay men and men of color are not suggested to be inherently sexual predators. If the term suggested was even worse, like sexually-interested, it would be patently outrageous to suggest that these things don’t matter

— by the way, we’re not talking about “potentially hurt feelings” but explicitly expressed rational arguments that the terminology plays into empirically known and demonstrated patterns of objective oppression —

and the relative ambiguity of a term like sexuals is not a justification of it. When it matters that gay men are not implied to be sexually predatory, it matters regardless of who’s talking. It doesn’t only matter when heterosexual people are talking, and it doesn’t cease to matter when it’s other gay men, or asexual people, who are talking.

If I were writing a style guide, I still think the listing method is best, but for considerations of brevity I think it would be reasonable to list only once in the beginning, “pansexual, homosexual, bisexual, and heterosexual people”, so that individual identities are affirmed instead of erased — and then using “sexual people” throughout.

Since there probably are, or at least will develop, other gradations, “sexual people – those experiencing sexual attraction or desire, who may for instance identify as…” might be a better construction.

…if “sexuals” feeds into rape culture because certain people are considered “unrapable” due to their sexuality, isn’t the problem with that assumption?

The ultimate problem is the existence of rape culture. Other proximate problems are also what affect people living in a current rape culture that will not just cease to exist tomorrow. There is no single the problem.

This sounds a little like the “We can’t tell kids being gay is normal because then they’ll come out and people will pick on them!” reasoning. :/

No, because you’re talking about protecting people from self-identification. (For the record, of course, kids should be told the truth: both that being gay is normal and that they are likely to experience some bullying for coming out. Different kids will then make different decisions about when to come out.)

No one is saying that a person who wants to self-identify with the noun by saying “I am a sexual” should not do so.

And no, the implication that it’s perfectly okay for anyone to use any phraseology they want in “their own” essay is absurd. I don’t consent to being called a faggot in just anyone’s essay, for example. These are public matters affecting lots of people and the discussion is taking place in public, so I’m not going to accept the implication that I have to be silent.

Tony, I have read a lot about the worst of human behavior. The pit, while unpleasant, does not approach that. It is like dropping in on children who think that farting is about the funniest thing there is.

Who was it that explained why they didn’t like to refer to heterosexuals as ‘straight’? I think it was in one of the last few Lounge iterations. I liked the idea that ‘straight’ implies ‘correct’ or ‘on the right path’ to many people, and since gays are ‘not straight’, we are ‘off’, ‘different’, or ‘deviant’.

Hey everybody – I’m mostly ‘rupt but learning a lot as I read up the thread. Thanks for the enlightening discussion. Going to nod off in a minute but I’ve found myself missing it here and wanted to say hello. I’m doing well, I hope everyone else is doing as well as possible.

Wish I could send you some Silk, Caine. I concur with the last sentence of your 648, wholeheartedly. It seems my area will be coated in ice tomorrow.

:::wonders if a tech person could install warning lights in front of infested threads, so people could be forewarned that something nasty dwells within:::
(I just checked out page 2 of the ‘women in the military’ thread. Ooooh Boy!

WMDKitty:
Oh, the *other* douchebag!
****
::indulges in silly superstition::
Portia:
Were your ears burning? When I first popped into the Lounge tonight, your name sprung to mind and I remembered I haven’t seen you in a bit. I hope all is well.

The PZ is our Shepard, and we shall not want.
He maketh us lie down with cool science books.
He leadeth us beside our awesome cephalapod overlords.
He restoreth our minds, but only in a metaphorical sense.
He leadeth us on paths of silly wittyness for His name’s sake.

Even though we walk through the valley of the shadows of assholes,
We fear no half-baked theories
For He is with us.
His squid and his cute animals, they comfort us.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow us all the days of our lives,
And we shall dwell in the house of the Horde forever
(or until we all die and get recycled into other living and not-living things).

Caine:
Be well :)
****
ckitching:
I _should_ know that by now…but I think my surprise was finding someone posting on Pharyngula who is involved with AVfM. That takes guts. I cannot remember if it is just Pitters that PZ bans on site or if it is other misogynist asses.
****
And once again sgbm comes to the rescue with a link. Many thanks!

Caine: Thankfully I don’t have to drive anywhere tomorrow, unless there’s a fire call because someone else had to drive somewhere and the ice didn’t agree with their travel plans. I hope you are well in your absence from the Lounge. Scritches to Angua if she lets you.

Tony: Your superstition makes me smile and feel warm and fuzzy : ) I am doing remarkably well, and feeling strong and good about myself. I reminded myself earlier today to tuck away this feeling in my memory for the next time I’m feeling down. To remember that good feelings are possible and attainable. How are you, friend?

Portia:
I think things are looking up. I have a wonderful new job that is almost as perfect an experience as is possible. We open Friday and I hope this sees the beginning of a financial turnaround. Among other things, this year I want to attend one of these conventions (WIS2 is calling my name).
By the way, I would like to share an idea with you (a few others know of it). Is there a way I can reach you via email?

Congrats, Tony! Sorry I missed the job announcement if you made one earlier. So happy for you, I know how much money has been stressing you out. And conferences! I went to Reason Rally, and it was the first secularism/atheism/whatever event I went to. It was cool, but I’d like to try others. There was one in Madison that I had no one to go to with, so I skipped it even though it was a few hours drive, coulda been a day trip. But, I am braver about doing things alone and venturing out. So there’s hope for me yet :)

Tony, two black cats crossed my path at my friend’s house earlier. If they crossed back and forth (and over me and under me and all over me) enough times, do they cancel out? Or am I just exponentially screwed in terms of luck?

When I was in high school biology, we were tasked with describing wildlife. Us girls got in trouble with the teacher for preparing out report on the group of guys in the class. I think we called it a “pride” because of their propensity for overt, unnecessary shows of masculinity.

Portia, hello!
I too have been spending less time here. How are you?
—
Nepenthe, pit/nuisance/stink?
Personally, I like stink of bros, it nicely covers the “bathed in alcohol” stench and “bros stink” in a more metaphorical sense.

Work is going splendidly, I have lots of new clients and am closing some files on satisfied ones. I also am very proud of myself because I think I am making a new friend. I met her at the bar association holiday party, and saw her again at the meeting this week. I’m going to sound like a stereotypical teen boy here but…she came over to talk to me, and then we made a lunch date and I’m really happy I might have a lawyer friend who seems like a very cool, unpretentious person. (During the holiday party we discussed how awkward we feel at these social events).

It’s ok here. I’m getting used to work, colleagues are very nice and supportive. I also have a testing for a payed job tomorrow, basically a similar thing to what I’m doing now except for real pay instead of government assistance. Honestly, if it weren’t for the money and no assurance that I’ll be able to stay after this year, I wouldn’t even try anywhere else, I like this workplace.

Had a bit of a situation at home the other day, so I’m a bit down, but I’m focusing on studying for the test and trying not to think about other things too much.

Best of luck with the test. I’m glad you like your new workplace. Good that you enjoy going there every day til a paying job comes along and snaps you up.

Home situation: yuck. I’m sorry *hugs* I won’t ask if you want to talk about it since you’re trying to put it out of your mind. I’ll just encourage you to engage in as much self-care as you can while you prepare to rock that test.

WMD Kitty: yes, it was good to be mobbed. I think they missed me. This was the friend who let me live in his spare room for the last 2 years of college. These two kitties are usually lurking around the basement when visitors come, but when I show up they stand on the couch and wait for me to sit down so I can do my scritching duty. I’m not much of a pet person generally, but there are a few that are really endearing to me.

Portia:
Any chance you can spare some of that ability to “do things alone and venture out”? If you can bottle that up, I will buy it from you. That will be a stumbling block-for me-to going to any conference.

Ok my head’s starting to hurt a little so I’m going to follow through on going to bed this time. I am happy to have had a little Lounge time though and will be home-bound and Lounging tomorrow. Good night all!

I’ve been looking for something interesting to read (Caine, I’m def getting that history of misogyny book you’ve mentioned.) Anyone read A People’s History of the United States by Howard Zinn? I’ve found it online here and have read the first chapter. So far, its pretty fucking phenomenal.

BeatriceThe Princess Bride is a much different book from the movie, but I love both for very different reasons (at least, the novel that I read, was much different, but still entertaining as hell!).

Tony!!!
Thanks for the email heads-up; reply sent. Had you not warned me, your email would have passed right through my account via the Junk Mail folder. I think it’s the long-running rivalry of yahoo vs. hotmail.

+++

I am officially revoking my re-lurking status, because clearly I am not lurking-only.
But.
Think of me as in a purgatory.
But I’m going to need this place next week; Husband leaves for 6 days on his all-expenses work-paid ski trip to the Alps (annual; Switzerland this year). Not happy. Not because it’s 6 days or 6 days alone or that he’s going to the Alps, but because I’m insanely jealous because I want a trip like that, too. And no one’s giving it to me, and the one time I brought up going somewhere (alone for a weekend) to Husband, he claimed money. And I wouldn’t mind going together with him somewhere, but somehow that also never happens. Because I want a break, too. So I’m stuck where I am and unhappy about it, annnd [end childish whining].
In any event, anyone want to try watching a movie simultaneously sometime next weekend? Convenient time and movie to be decided during the week?

Jesus fuck. I honestly can’t tell if this is something wrong with my ear or if it’s referred pain from my jaw. I feel absolutely nothing uncomfortable in my mouth or jaw from the area of that wisdom tooth, but the outside of my ear now feels like a cross between a muscle cramp and a fresh second degree burn. The pain itself isn’t all that terrible compared to things like kidney stones, but it’s just so fucking irritating I can’t think. Doubly so because I can’t be sure of what it is, so don’t know if seeing someone about the ear will actually help and I can’t afford to keep having things checked.

Sigh. The Boy Scouts organization is far from done when it comes to being anti-gay. Even when individual troops within the Boy Scouts decide to NOT be anti-gay, leaders at the national level will not permit this offensive show of tolerance.Coverage in Mother Jones.

The Boy Scouts council in charge of overseeing scout programs in the Washington, DC-area is threatening to kick out a Maryland troop for posting a statement on its website declaring it won’t discriminate against gay scouts. The troop has to decide by tomorrow whether to remove the statement.

In September, the families of Pack 442, which is based in Cloverly, Maryland (a small town less than 20 miles from the nation’s capital), anonymously voted and overwhelmingly approved to adopt a non-discrimination statement. According to Theresa Phillips, committee chair of Pack 442, the pack wanted Boy Scouts of America to know “we will not stand for the discrimination of homosexual minors or adults whatsoever.” …

Update: Pack 442 took down its non-discrimination statement on Saturday after pressure from the National Capital Area Council, and will keep its charter as a result.

In another, related article about the Boy Scouts we find the doofuses losing funders over their anti-gay policies. Excerpt from a Mother Jones article:

… In the last six months, companies including UPS, United Way, the Merck Company Foundation and the Intel Foundation have announced they will drop or postpone funding for the Boy Scouts. Verizon Communications could be next: Over 70,000 people have signed a petition asking the corporation to stop funding the Scouts over their discriminatory policies….

A Moment of Mormon Madness: fighting the commies in soft rock, a memory written up by ex-mormon, Steve Benson:

My dad saw the title of one of my selected songs and proceeded to give the official heave-ho to “Bread’s” timeless ballad, “Sweet Surrender.”

I was stunned and upset. He didn’t even bother to listen to the tune or read the lyrics (which was no small issue since, listening to the link provided, one can hardly call it hard rock).

So, I asked my dad why he kill-joyed it.

He said it was the song’s title: “Sweet Surrender.”

I asked him what was wrong with the title (it was, after all, a sweet love song).

To understand my dad’s reason for beheading “Bread,” it should be noted that during this time of my life the Vietnam war was still raging. My dad said that the title of the song was actually a message to the youth of America to surrender to the Vietnamese Communists (who, he believed, were not only Communists but were being backed by Moscow’s Marxists in a worldwide conspiracy to destroy America and eventually take over the planet).

It is appropriate to note here that the John Birch Society (which my grandfather fervently supported as being the most effective weapon–outside the Mormon Church, that is–in fighting Communism, and to which my mother belonged), believed that “The Beatles” were actually trained in Russia by the Commie Soviets in the dark art of rock ‘n roll–before being set loose on the world to spark revolution in America, destroy its cherished values and lead away its young people into thw swamps of sin and socialism….

camcaran, not having any memories before age 13 is concerning. Would you consider talking to a therapist and maybe getting a physical exam to make sure there’s no physical problem preventing you from forming memories properly? (Some caution though: bad therapy might be worse than none…false memories and so on.)

Sorry it took so long. I appreciate your concern, thank you. =) I used to see a therapist and she recommended going to psychotherapy, but I decided it would be too hard and I’d rather just not remember than go through that.

Just came back from figure skating exhibition gala (European Figure Skating Championship). I like to watch skating, but I don’t really follow the contestants, so I was really happy to recognize one of the skaters I remembered from a couple of Golden Spins I’ve been to, and that he got a nice bronze medal this time. I ♥ this guy, even though I don’t remember why exactly he impressed me so much that first time.

Skaters were wonderful. Other than my favorite, I can’t even choose who I liked the most. They were all brilliant. Well, that’s why they got the medals, right?

The whole thing ended with everyone performing together to Dirty Dancing and for the finish- Gangham Style. I think that bit was equally entertaining for the skaters and for the audience. You couldn’t help but laugh.

kouras,
It worked quite well.
They didn’t do the whole choreography, just those most recognizable bits. The jumping was a bit tamer, let’s say, but they looked like they were having fun so that counted for most of our enjoyment as well.

The whole thing finished only a couple of hours ago, so there is nothing on YouTube yet. I’ll probably spam the Lounge with videos in a couple of days. :)

A reason why figure skating is one of the rare sports I can watch live without hating the rest of the audience:
Even when a spectacular jump turns into a spectacular fail, the audience applauds. There’s a collective drawn breath if it looks like the skater might have injured her/himself, but never booing or anything similar.

rq
Welcome back.
That stinks about not getting a vacation.MM
I know the feeling; I’ve been having intermittent problems of a similar nature although not as bad; now that I finally have insurance, I’ll see what I can do about it. Best of luck with yours.Cyranothe2nd
I’ve read and recommend People’s History. I’d also recommend Lies My Teacher Told Me By James LoewenCaracan
As I told Dianne, I don’t think that the psychotherapist would have been any more helpful.

Beatrice
I saw it on TV and kept wondering (since you mentioned you’d be going) where you were sitting. :) A very entertaining show!

re: movie
I know it’s all a bit tough with time zones (which is usually why Mock the Movie is tough for me to pull off), it was just a throw-out idea because I think I’d like the company but I’m not necessarily up for watching a terrible (mockable) movie. Perhaps something familiar but with the feeling that I’m watching it with someone.

One day I’ll get a vacation, a real one (not the kind where we drag along Youngest Child because and then Husband tells me See? I take you out, so why don’t you shut up about it for a while? (but in much nicer terms)). I have lots of time to plan. :) A sort of revenge-vacation, if you will… And yes, I’ll shut up on the topic now. :)

Oh and thunk you’re already the Commune meteorologist, so – yay!

IJoe
That’s a real movie? *blink*

Tony
Restaurant opening = so much more fun. Too bad I can’t go to that.

A reason why figure skating is one of the rare sports I can watch live without hating the rest of the audience:
Even when a spectacular jump turns into a spectacular fail, the audience applauds. There’s a collective drawn breath if it looks like the skater might have injured her/himself, but never booing or anything similar.

: ) I’m all cozied up in my grandpa’s ancient lazyboy with a blanket and hulu and folding laundry. I think I’ll have a burrito in a little bit. I made a bunch of chorizo/potato ones yesterday to have meals prepared. I feel like a grown up when I do stuff like that, ha. After this I may clean my room to make my sewing machine accessible so I can finally make drapes for my office.

I think it would be fun to watch a movie together. The time zone would be a problem, though. I’m willing to try : ) Movie suggestions?

There’s something about my New Lawyer Friend you all might appreciate. She told me a pet peeve of hers that is identical to mine, and I hadn’t even groused about it to her yet. She is so tired of being introduced as her fiance’s fiance. That is, we get “Oh, this is __________, she’s _________’s fiance.*” rathr than “Oh, this is __________, she’s a local attorney working primarily in ________________.” Just like SO, her fiance, S, is the son of a local attorney. So of course that’s two men to whom her identity is tethered, whether she likes it or not. And of course, like me, she is assumed to be a plus-one, or an assistant. We are not given the credit that we might be at a legal event because we’re lawyers. (Have I mentioned I like her?)

*And I get tired of being called his fiance because we are not engaged. It feels weird to me, like people are trying to do me a favor by “legitimizing” our relationship or something. But I guess I do hate the word “boyfriend” because it seems like it has high school connotations or something.

Yeah, over here, partner is used very little. That’s part of the reason I use SO here, just as a shorthand and as a way of avoiding the bf word. Partner sounds stiff to me, I think. But maybe that’s the legal connotations I sift the word through. There’s no perfect word. Well, especially not for S (I think I’ll switch from SO to S). I have no idea what we’re even doing right now with this relationship. It is nice to go to networking events with him though, for someone to talk to.

I dunno, I’m ok, I think, with boyfriend, but it does sound a bit juvenile. May I suggest ‘manfriend’? ;) Partner would probably be best… But it’s probably tough to get people to use it properly.
How do you respond to being introduced as ‘the fiancee’? I suppose saying something like “I’m a lawyer, too!” would sound a bit juvenile as well, but maybe the SO adding to the ‘his fiancee!!’ bit a comment about the lawyerly stuff…? And I doubt anyone introduces you first and then the SO as your fiance, no? That would be interesting… Ech, I’m rambling back at you, because I have no idea how to solve this issue.

And for the record, I hate being introduced as the Husband’s wife (even though I am), rather than myself, because for some odd reason, my name gets omitted and people’s eyes just pass right over me, strangely enough…

Movie? The Princess Bride, of course. :) Ok, that’s just a suggestion.
And the time zones can be worked out; I used to watch movies simultaneously with one of my best friends from Canada – it’s a 7 hour difference, but it can be done. So… If you’re up for it Portia, we can give it a try. Especially if you get another freezing rain day! ;)

I dunno, I’m ok, I think, with boyfriend, but it does sound a bit juvenile. May I suggest ‘manfriend’? ;) Partner would probably be best… But it’s probably tough to get people to use it properly.

Yeah, I use boyfriend in most conversations. It just feels weird to use the same word for a three-year adult relationship that S’s six year old uses for his playground romance and my 16 year old cousin uses for her 37 day relationship.

How do you respond to being introduced as ‘the fiancee’?

Depends on who is saying it, but I sometimes snark about how “I’m not present because I’m a lawyer or anything…” Sometimes I wait for someone to proverbially step in it and obviously assume that I’m not an attorney before I point out that I am. For instance, at one conference, S gave two seminars about his specialty area of law. I was at both, which was noticed by another young attorney. He made a quip that I must be S’s biggest fan and he wished his girlfriend came to conferences to be supportive! He felt very foolish very quickly, I assure you.

But, S is usually pretty good about bringing up something about my accomplishments or something. It helps that people are usually pretty impressed by the fact that I started a solo practice (not sure why, it often feels foolhardy to me!) But you’re right, he is never identified by his relationship to me. Sigh.

And for the record, I hate being introduced as the Husband’s wife (even though I am), rather than myself, because for some odd reason, my name gets omitted and people’s eyes just pass right over me, strangely enough…

Mmm, yes, so strange…what could the explanation be???

Movie? The Princess Bride, of course. :) Ok, that’s just a suggestion.
And the time zones can be worked out; I used to watch movies simultaneously with one of my best friends from Canada – it’s a 7 hour difference, but it can be done. So… If you’re up for it Portia, we can give it a try. Especially if you get another freezing rain day! ;)

I never turn down a Princess Bride viewing : ) I may just use it as an excuse to buy it. I had a copy once but it was lost to time and moving. We’ll just have to pick out a time : )

Beatrice and Portia
Let’s do it. And invite everyone.
From what I can gather, I’m an hour ahead of Beatrice, but I have no idea how far ahead of Portia I am… It is currently just past 9.30PM here.

And hooray for putting people in their place, Portia. :) I am, as always, impressed with your backbone! (Starting a solo practice = brave on the outside, but feels a bit stupid on the inside… Eh. When you’re rich and rolling in it, it might feel a bit less stupid; I’m hoping that legalizing the translations will bring uncountable millions in for me, even though going official is a bit scary. Hey, I’m allowed to dream!)

Speaking of movies, I watched three at my friend P’s house last night. The first was Safety Not Guaranteed, which was his number one movie of the year (he’s a big buff). I was entertained but not wowed. Then he insisted on The Cabin in the Woods, even though he knows I hate horror movies. (I don’t like see to see people dying horrificially, it’s just not my thing). I survived it by hiding my face under a blanket a lot. Then, we watched my favorite of the evening, A Fish Called Wanda. That was fun and funny and not horrifying. It was good to hang out with P again, too.

Not sure why I feel so talkative today, I must have been having Lounge withdrawals.

Speaking of the red tide (albeit ages and ages ago):
One time my Dearie and I went to visit his brothers family on the coast. During dinner the topic of the red tide came up. Dearie asked “Is it a natural occurance or is it a man-made orgasm?”. We were on very polite terms at that time so it was ignored as a faux pas. Later on, behind closed doors, I laughed and snorted so hard they must have thought I was having a man-made organism.

Finally caught up. That took a while. Hi, everyone :). I had a feeling bad about myself week. Still feeling it but pulling myself up slowly, I guess. It’s funny, I read all of your comments about feeling like you’re intruding on the Lounge and always, I repeat, ALWAYS, think, “How can this person think that? Of course they are welcome and contribute. I, on the other hand, am truly a waste of bandwidth.” I really hate depression but it doesn’t always help me to recognize that that’s where the mean voice in my head comes from. It can rationalize a whole lot of self hate that I would never direct toward someone else. The worst is being made to feel as if what I let myself put up with makes me a danger to others’ safety.

*

I am also holding thumbs for you, Portia :)

*

rq, is it too late to add myself to the Commune? If I am welcome, of course.

Thanks for the crossed fingers. I’m not out of the woods yet but doing good weather-wise.

Here’s a large platter of hugs for your perusal. I’m so sorry you’ve had a rough week. If it helps, I always like seeing you when I’m around these parts. Recognizing that the voice in my head is anxiety and not reality has been helpful to me before. I totally understand how hard it is to ignore it though. There’s plenty of room in the Commune, I believe.

Halp, plz? Can I draw on the wisdom of the horde? The minivan is possibly dying for the last time. We’ve poured so much money (more specifically, credit that still isn’t paid off) that it’s probably really not worth it this time, but we of course have no money for this anyway. But I’m at a loss at the level of not even knowing what to look for – spouse doesn’t really want a minivan, I hate SUVs, but we need to still haul kids and stuff (and ideally be able to tow, but that’s more of a dream). I don’t even know what’s out there right now – crossovers, is that what we’re looking for? I see there are wagons, but they seem quite expensive. I’ve never been at such a loss not knowing where to start with this, because there are so many new cars out now (we haven’t bought this kind since 2001) and it’s so overwhelming. Does anyone have a car that does such things that they like?

Thanks Portia, carlie, and Beatrice :) – It does help to read kind words and thank you for all the hugses! It’s easy enough for me to recognize that it is depression and anxiety messing with me, but it is soooo much harder for me to care when I’m in the middle of it. I am trying, though. And being here helps :)

Ooh and I just realized that if I accidentally hit the back arrow off of the page and come back, my comment is still here! Awesomesauce.

HI folks
Partly ‘rupt, but I finished the Hunger Games Trilogy.
Anybody interested in a review?
Although I’m probably the last person on earth to have read it anyway…

rq
I think your husband needs to be kindly whacked around the head with some information about how very, very important your mental and emotional health is and that getting a break once in a while is a much cheaper thing than you having a burn out.

+++
So, Germany has a sexism-debate
Well, mostly it’s men complaining about how unfair it is that a woman (a young journalist) dared to mention that the designated candidate of the libertarial party harassed her. Yes, I’m having flash-backs.

+++
Also, my hopes of #1’s godsdamn tooth falling out this weekend have failed, so I need to make her an appointment I have no time for

+++
Also Mr. broke off his key in our lock this morning. My most wonderful dad in law could fix it for the moment but told us to call the housing company because this lock will give in completely soon. Chalk down another appointment.

Hello, I am back from my holiday, and not just threadrupt but also pharyngurupt and FTBrupt. I did look up this pit name thing, and it turns out that I am Croup Banana, but I don’t quite understand the context.

I have eaten and drunk many very fine things (with a special emphasis on sheep cheese, lavender, honey and crayfish) and seen many interesting animals, and had some very lovely walks.

The Princess Bride: I was sad the story of Buttercup’s betrothal wasn’t shown in the movie. You don’t really get a context for her reactions later (and it does make her look a bit like a flake); she literally had the choice between marriage and death, and I think that makes her betrothal to Humperdink a lot more understandable than it was.

A lot of book to movie conversions seem to remove things with explain the actions of the women in them. The Phantom of the Opera movies likewise often change how disgustin and manipulative Erik (the Phantom) is to Christine, and remove a lot of the steps of manipulation she underwent, which again makes her look weak and motivaitonless. In a lot of ways, her relationship with Erik is a profoundly abusive one; he seeks to isolate her, he convinces her others don’t care and can’t be there for her, and by the standards of the time her relationship with Raoul could only be one of patron and mistress, not married couple, which makes her reluctance in their relationship make more sense. Her suffering when isolated with Erik is usually entirely removed (in the book she’s with him for a month and becomes clearly depressed and ill) as is the context of she and Raoul playing at being engaged the month before he goes on a dangerous expedition and she looses access to other people entirely. In what’s left, she appears fickle, unstable, and cruel, but in context she’s a pretty powerless woman trying to do the best for everyone, including the man she loves (Raoul). I’ve ogt an entire rant on how Erik is gradually made less evil and Christine is gradually made more evil over the course of reinterpretations of the book, but I keep not writing it down.

rq: Total suck on wanting fantastic vacation and not getting it! I’m sorry! I’d be up for a simulmovie, or to try it at least, but I don’t have cable, just Netflix and the interwebnet.

Camcaran: Sorry it took so long. I appreciate your concern, thank you. =) I used to see a therapist and she recommended going to psychotherapy, but I decided it would be too hard and I’d rather just not remember than go through that.

If you don’t mind a bit of unsolicited advice, as long as you’re not struggling in your day to day life you should be pretty good. If you do start to struggle and it seems to be coming from nowhere, it might be that time re-asserting itself. In my experience, what we bury in the past tends to come up when our current circumstances most allow it too, so trying to force it is usually pretty foolish.

Skating: It’s one of my favorite sports, and Dirty Dancing to Gangman style just sounds awesome. I am immodestly pleased that some Kpop has broken into the US music scene, even if my favorites will likely never follow (I have an abiding love for Korean Dramas, which means I become fond of a lot of Korean pop bands because they make their chops doing music for dramas).

Books: We need a Pharyngula book list. I keep seeing books I’d be interested in the thread, but not being where I can write them down, and then there are squirrels and some of them are cute, and have you ever noticed how leaves move? It’s like dancing. Oh yeah, books. Lists are good.

I still need to read the Hunger Games. I bought the first one, and now it’s staring at me accusitorily while I reread the Chronicles of OZ on my iPhone. I want light, and cheerful, and sweet, and Ozma, damnit! The world needs more Ozma!

Parrowing: Ug, that part of depression sucks. And then you have the people who respond to your self-hating with, “Why do you hate yourself? That’s stupid.” and then you become both self-hating AND stupid or being self-hating. Yay jerkbrain! *no-pressure offer of hugs* If it helps at all, you’re not alone, you are valuable, parts of your brain are lying to you and hiding your awesome, but your awesome is still there.

Portia: Have you ever read Unfuck Your Habitat? I’ve been finding it somewhat motivating, especially since I got the ap and can set my own to do lists and look at the motivations. Sometimes I just read clean-room-porn, though. Oooh, someone cleaned their bedroom. *gets distracted*

Commune: Do an MFT and running familiarity with Jungian Psychotherapy count as skills? Besides that I’ve got cooking (I have cooked over campfires but I prefer stoves), baking, cross stitch, embroidery, sewing (including clothing; cosplay For The Win!), and being the Quantum Eye that somehow quells difficulties simply by being there (only seems to operate offline, may only work with adults with persistent mental illnesses). I can also analyze almost everything for Feminist Theory, write a half decent poem or remake of a poem, and read a paperback book in under an hour.

I’m beginning to think I’m turning back into a lurker lately :-(
It’s the combination of trying to do stuff I tend to be slow at doing (helping the Spawn with application paperwork) and feeling (yes, that feeling – the one a lot of us seem to have sometimes) that I don’t have anything to add that hasn’t already been said better by other Horders. Or at least, nothing that I could say without poring over it for hours I don’t really have – but I would like to pay my sincere respects to everyone who’s been dealing with the toxicity that is lee “iron john wannabe” coye over in the Women in the Military thread. Ugh.
I’d like to send assorted hugs to those who could do with and would care for one. Plus an extra one for rq re that, um, contretemps over getting a break if only for a weekend, dammit.
.
On an very revolting note, sadly – has anyone seen reports of a rapist in the UK spared a jail term because he had gone to a faith school where he was taught “that women are worthless” and that his education meant he didn’t know it was illegal to rape a 13 year old?
HOWEVER I must point out that the only news source (and I use that in its very loosest sense) I’ve seen so far (linked to me by a friend) is the Daily Mail online, which means credibility is very low unless there’s corroboration from real news sources.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html
“Preview error” – so I have no idea how this will look. Urk.

Last weeks pseudo Swiss steak (no pounding of the meat) recipe worked out tastily (still have one more portion of meat, to go with left over potatoes from the previous beef roast), so the Redhead decided I could try a pork roast recipe with dried fruit this week. Just stuck it in the oven. I suspect I’m hitting the limits of my cooking experience, as I get the feeling a few things were left out. If I wrote such a vague PBR for work, I would be fired. *sigh*

Parrowing:
Of course you’re welcome in the Commune; just add your skills to the chart; it’s my job to work out how we’ll use ‘em, apparently. If you haven’t any skills, you get to be general labor ’til you learn some :)
Alethea:
Welcome back
Deoridhe:
I told them we’d need an arcology! But they laughed, the fools! Who’s laughing now, I ask you?

On a more rational note, I don’t see why therapists would be any less valuable in the Arcology than any other large community.

opposablethumbs
I kind of feel the same way; between a new work schedule, some changes in my personal life, and other such, I haven’t been nearly as active as I mean to be. You’re always welcome when you can make it, though.Caine
A bit late, but goodbye, *hugs* and I’ll be among those waiting with ‘bated breath ’til your return.

rq:
If you’re still about (or is that aboot?): Seems we’ve been playing delurk/relurk tag. Good ta see ya!
_
And as for: ” See? I take you out, so why don’t you shut up about it for a while?” Gotta love it!
My ex did that- with a twist!
Ex: “You’re so indecisive!”
Me: “Uh, okay let’s go to [names restaurant].”
Ex: “You always want to go there! I heard about a new place that just opened…”
Me: “Wait! You just comlpained about my indecisiveness– I make a decision but instead of acknowledging that I actually did make a DECISION you criticize it and countermand it almost as if I never spoke?” *sigh*

To Whom It May Concern:
Any past, present or future pontifications on Commune culture, on the part of bluentx (aka Anxiety Asparagas), are hereby presented for public consumption.
—Legal-easy enough?*—

random: proposed Arizona bill to check and report immigration status of hospital patients and public school students. So hospitals won’t deny care to immigrants, just have them deported after they show up. *spits*

I honestly can’t tell if this is something wrong with my ear or if it’s referred pain from my jaw.

When my jaw is giving me problems (TMJ), I generally feel the pain in my ear long before the jaw itself starts to bother me. I use it as a warning sign that I might need to watch what I’m eating (that is, switch to softer foods for a while) or need to put heat on that side of my face. Sometimes gently opening and shutting my mouth as wide was tolerable helps ease the tension I tend to store there. *hugs*

But I’m at a loss at the level of not even knowing what to look for – spouse doesn’t really want a minivan, I hate SUVs, but we need to still haul kids and stuff (and ideally be able to tow, but that’s more of a dream).

I don’t know if they’re considered a minivan in the US or not but have you looked at something like a Honda Odyssey?

When my jaw is giving me problems (TMJ), I generally feel the pain in my ear long before the jaw itself starts to bother me. I use it as a warning sign that I might need to watch what I’m eating (that is, switch to softer foods for a while) or need to put heat on that side of my face. Sometimes gently opening and shutting my mouth as wide was tolerable helps ease the tension I tend to store there.

Very good point. Opening my jaw wide gets a little bit of a “click” in the joint, so I suspect it is referred pain. I know going to the ER and crying that I’m in pain and ibuprofen isn’t cutting it will not get me any help whatsoever, so I’m just stuck for tonight at the very least.

Bizarrely, the only thing I’ve found that does anything at all is vibration. That at least takes away most of the pain while I have it against the ear/joint. I may not be able to sleep tonight, but at least I can have a little relief.

Commune contributions:
-More books, mags on self-sustainability, gardening, etc. [#1 & #5 Firefox books. DIY books including my dads books on building and carpentry (print date 1947)- maybe those ‘old-fashioned’ techniques will be necessary post-apocalypse, eh? Back issues of Mother Earth News, Organic Gardening, The Herb Companion…]
-An eclectic CD/LP/Cassette collection . From classical to Jazz and Big Band to Classic Rock to Punk and New Wave to Americana…Skills (adendum):
gardening
frustrated non-professional librarianMisc.:
NOT being a gamer I could sub (doing chores) for those who are and who get caught up in the moment: (“I CAN”T STOP PLAYING NOW!”)

I lost my wallet, and all of my money for the next two weeks. Oh happy day! Could be worse… my new drivers licence is in the mail and NOT in the wallet, and I could have lost it when it had $425 in it, rather than when it only had $80. Still… fuck.

Alethea:
A belated(December) thank you for the geography lesson. Yes, I did have to look up Queanbeyan. The pics I found set me off on a long time (since childhood) refrain of “I wanna go ta Australia!”

It’s the premade products that I’m trying to get away from. As much as I love my rice cooker, I can only eat so much of the basic “rice & veg”, and if I want meats, it’s limited to pre-cooked or microwaveable (neither of which are very healthy).

Tomorrow, 2PM local time. We will have a house.
Pictures or it didn’t happen. Tomorrow.

+++

Damn you, time zones, I wanted to talk to deoridhe!!
Because I agree (with regards to The Princess Bride and Phantom). I remember reading Phantom of the Opera, which I’d heard was supposed to be this great love story between the Phantom and Christine, and I was terribly disappointed, because the Phantom was actually a manipulator and overall asshole.
I saw Princess Bride The Movie before I read the book, but I have to say, reading about Buttercup’s actual choice re: the engagement clarified a lot of things about her depression in the movie (I mean, losing your One True Love would be depressing on its own, but people do recover from that; being pressured into a non-choice, though, bites even more!).
re: SimulMovie – I don’t do NetFlix, I download things, so I’ll be watching from my computer/USB’ed TV. If you want to participate, we can figure it out! :)
And thanks for the Unfuck Your Habitat link. Love it. It speaks to me on many, many different levels.

I have also added you to the Commune chart I have (to be forwarded to Dalillama for clearance/editting).

bluentx
I need a clarify: when you say gardening, do you mean (a) weeding; (b) decorative (flowers, etc.); (c) vegetables? I’m just asking because so far everyone’s been focussed on food production, we have no landscapers/decorative (flower) gardeners.

Improbable Joe
Oh no!!! I hope for the safe return of your wallet, intact and insides untouched. Because it can happen.
In the meantime, *hugs*. That’s a crappy, crappy situation.

+++

The Hunger Games: I don’t usually like reading books that are incredibly popular at the moment. It took me years and years to finally read the entire Harry Potter series, and to admit that it isn’t actually all that bad. Clearly, that is an author who started small and simple, but who allowed herself to grow and develop with time and more books.
I read Twilight because my friend from Canada insisted that Edward was The Ultimate Gentleman, and the books were so popular, and she wanted to read them together… Well, I ended up reading them alone but I wasn’t impressed, at all.
So, I resisted the pull of The Hunger Games for quite some time, but my sister read them and said they were decent – the second book was a bit slow (she said), but overall, a good read. I read them, and was pleasantly surprised. I liked the author’s ideas and the way she developed the aspects of oppression in the book. A few things bothered me, like the Districts being pretty racially segregated. I actually liked the second book a lot (didn’t find it slow at all), because it did a lot of organizing and placement of things that would later need to be clear. I think I identified with Katniss the most at the very end, where she talks about her children. For YA fiction, I thought the books dealt well with the serious themes, with a lot less glorification of violence (where those hungry for violence are actually painted more negatively than usual – see Gale) than usual (see Divergent and subsequent books of that series; also bad teenage romance in this one! ;) ).
What struck me the most about The Hunger Games, though, is when I was younger (see: ~14) I wrote a short story called The Mockingbird about a war hero after the war and how she deals with the memories… Tee hee. (It’s a bad story, but the theme was vaguely similar, I like to think.)

Wheeeee! That’s excitingfantastic annoying news. ;) I was counting on bureaucracy to hold you up at least until we had say, a roof or some such. Sigh, that’s bureaucracy, always letting one down.

In all seriousness, that’s fantastic. I hope it’s smoother going from here on in.

I’m not sure if you were around when we the skeleton house showed up so here’s today’s picture.

iJoe

A boo and a hiss for the vanishing wallet of disappearingness. I hate when that happens, mostly because I always end up thinking about it over and over and over until I’ve convinced myself that I must be the most stupid person in the world to manage to lose something so personal. Never mind that if someone else confessed to feeling that bad I would try and convince them that shit happens, so never mind.

Besides losing my wallet is small potatoes to an accomplished and accredited absentminded geek such as myself: two months after I got married I lost my wedding ring for the first time. The second time involved sheep…

Here’s a “recipe” for microwaves, if you can stand nuking stuff in plastic wrap (I admit I sometimes kind of wonder).

Take a delicata squash, halve it lengthwise and scoop out the seeds. Wrap each half in plastic wrap and nuke them on high. In our machine a delicata takes about 7 minutes; YMMV.

It would probably work with larger squashes, but If I’m using those it’s generally to feed a crowd, so I usually roast in the oven*. Delicatas are small and** very tasty, it’s almost as if they have their own butter and brown sugar built in.

*for example, large though our microwave is, a Hubbard will Simply Not Fit.
**let me remind you that I pretty much find vegetables disgusting on their own. There are exceptions.

Forgot to mention: nutmeg, butter, and sugar treatment are for after the squash is cooked. Gack! Three posts to cover a trivial reply. I am in arrears on my coffee. I’m now off through the Wintry Mix to claim same.

FossilFishy
Well, unless the Bank places another unexpected stumbling block tomorrow at the signing, I win!
And Skeleton House looks wonderful. I hope the flesh is coming along well, too!
Good night!
(… I’m not going to ask about the wedding ring+sheep incident. Not directly. I’m going to do so subtly and unnoticeably, by couching it as a non-question within the parenthesis of a post on a completely different topic, by saying that I’m not going to ask about it, at all. …)

Thank you for all of the kind words, everyone :). I actually feel quite a bit better today. My parents agreed to help my husband and I out a bit financially, which is a huge stress reliever. I experimented with some weird but good nutmeg cupcakes this morning with a chocolate and pumpkin spice frosting. And my husband and I totally Unfucked Our Habitat this weekend. I guess what I’m saying is that I’m happy to be feeling happy about these things. This doesn’t happen as often as I’d like. Thanks again to everyone here.

*

YAY on the house, rq!

*

Re: Commune-

-I have decent cooking/baking skills, perhaps with a penchant for recreating foods from restaurants that I no longer have access to? If that’s a skill. Of course, that’s really only helpful if I’ve tasted the food before, so quick! Find me all of your favorites and send them through USB!

Other than that, I think I fall right into the entertainment group. I can act (I hope), sing, (But I cannot dance. No, really, I can’t. I am not what “they” call a triple threat.), write fiction and perhaps some non-fiction, paint, draw (including portrait), do some origami (I am pretty good at making paper flowers so I can set some of those around the gardens until the real things grow), and other craftwork that I can’t really categorize. I have a knack for noticing odd and disposable objects that ought never be thrown away but instead used in some sort of art piece that I’ll get around to one day. Whether that’s a skill is up for debate but sometimes those pieces end up being useful for creative fixes around the house.

Sorry for the lack of survival skills but I don’t wanna be zombie bait so please tell me there’s a place for me!

Parrowing
Skills noted. I see I need to open up a couple of categories just for you.
And entertainment in a post-apocalyptic world is vital, just so we don’t all end up doing cave-painting (currently by Portia) or shadow-puppeting our way through all the dull, quiet, no-zombie evenings. ;)

I just got to the point (reading backwards) that asked for my permission to post my comments to the wiki Consider my permission given for publication, dissemination and any other use of my Commune comments.

Also, I have added a brand new category in the Commune spreadsheet, which was prompted by thunk. It is the Machinery category, with sub-categories like Tractor, Bus, etc. Anyone with skills in heavy machinery may apply, even if peripheral or simulated (hey, it’s better than nothing!). And yes, scientific machinery counts!
Open categories: dentistry, optometry-grade glass-grinding.

Camcaran, outside of some of the traumatic events, of which there were too many, I remember very little of my childhood. I have years which are complete blanks. I figure there’s probably a good reason for that, so I don’t worry about it.

bluentx, chigau, thunk, Hekuni Cat, Giliell, opposablethumbs, rq, FossilFishy, Portia… thanks a bunch. Yeah, the wallet was lost outside of the house in a store parking lot, I drove back to look for it and left my name and number with the store manager. We’ll see what happens. I’m not all broken up about it, surprisingly calm considering. I needed a new wallet anyways, my ATM card was a few months from expiring, and in the grand scheme of things $80 isn’t going to make or break me. I managed to take out spending and gas money for my wife and set it aside, and I put another $250 on the SpokesGuitar(I sold the amp that I traded for my gun!) I’m not HAPPY, but I’m trying really hard not to beat myself up about it.

Seeing as this thread is coming very close to portcullis, I won’t even pretend that I’ve read any comments. I’m desperately, miserably, desolately threadrupt and won’t have time to fix it any time soon.

Just wanted to say hullo to all. Confetti, bacon, chocolate and glitter sprinkles for all who have a reason to celebrate, and a hug for all in need of one.

The news about 26 tonnes of goat cheese catching fire in a tunnel in Norway cheered me up no end, though. Last week, was it?

[Lounge]rupt. Scrolling in a series of skips and short hops (and I trust that anyone propagandising for the World Equine Bureaucracy, or suggesting plowing up all arable land and planting nothing but peas, will be pointed out to me by Interested Parties).
–
Nephew-in-law is hospitalised with a psychotic break of some kind. Sister hypothesizes a catastrophic interaction between his muscle relaxant (which he’s been on for a month?) and his newly-prescribed Lipitor. He was having trouble for 2 days before it all hit the windmill, and his GP just blew it off.
–Professional temp patch has been installed, which will hopefully last until we can get the filling replaced. At least the x rays didn’t show anything dire lurking beneath the current filling.
–*hugs* and *chocolate* and sympathy for Caine.
I have no quarrel with the weather, just now, but I will gladly join you in a hearty chorus of “Fuck Being Broke”.
–*waving* at Portia.
–rq, I am selfishly pleased that you are officially de-re-lurking.
:)
–
To my mind, the ear/jaw/sinuses cross-connecting pain display is yet another bit of evidence against “Intelligent Design”. It’s just stoopid.
–
kouras, welcome in.
–*hugs* for Parrowing. And I don’t recall seeing a sell-by date on Commune membership.
–
Giliell, I still haven’t read The Hunger Games, or seen the movie—though we have it recorded.
–
iJoe: Fuck, indeed. *hugs*
-

Wall o’ text time, because you lot have been talkative while I was in bed.IJoe
Ouch. Hopefully you get it back/ find it.Caine
Welcome back. *hugs*katenrala
Happy Birthday! *hugs*Parrowing
Entertainment is fundamental to human society, which the Commune is meant to be.rq
yay for the house. Also, I am so envious of you (and fossilfishy); there are loads of houses for sale here, none of which we can even come close to affording.Esteleth
Ah, the glamorous life of reaserch, eh?camcaran
My own memory recedes into a sort of fog from about 2-3 years before the present; there are a few particular incidents that I can recount, and I can recall general thems in my life, but for the most part I recall them as a story that I’ve told many times, and was told myself a long time ago more than as memories of things I did. As you say, though, it’s really been just a quirk; people get used to my needing to be reminded of things, and I don’t participate much in discussions of childhoods, but beyond that, it’s just a thing.

cooking in your rice cooker

Ours came with a steamer pot that fits on top of the rice portion.

Portia
Excellent!

kouras
Welcome. Pneumatics are good, and knowing where the rocks are and what they’re good for is always a plus.

Found my wallet in the garage… don’t ask me how it got into that corner of the garage, because I don’t know. I don’t care either. All that counts is that I have my wallet and my money and so yay! Fuck you world! You ain’t not beez holding me down!

Dalillama
If you look hard enough, or wait long enough, it will come. We’re only able to afford this one because it dropped out of the blue, blue sky. And the owners are leaving the country in a hurry, so the price is well below anything else in that class, and we just happened to be lucky enough to jump on it. So, I’m going to hold some thumbs for your benefit, and hopefully a house suitable in all respects for you and yours (presuming you do want one of your own? including financial umbilical to bank? ;) ) will appear sooner, rather than later!

rq
The bank can’t be more of an asshole than the landlord. Either way, I have to pay someone every month or be kicked out, but when I’m paying the bank 1)We can remodel the place to our hearts’ content, including things like a garden and energy efficiency improvements, and 2) eventually we’ll be able to stop paying the bank, and still have a place to live.

rq: Congrats on the house, and may it be real with or without pics!
:)
–
Happy birthday, katenrala!*cake&ice cream*
Correction:*chocolate chip ice cream cake*
–
Parrowing, all in the world you have to do to avoid being zombie bait is be able to out-run me—and that is a really low bar, so you should be golden.
:)
–
UnknownEric: I lol’d.
–
Portia: Huzzah! for WIN.
–
Minnie!*pouncehug*
–
Hekuni Cat*pouncehugback*
Me, too. I’m hoping that 1) it is the result of Fun With Chemicals, and therefore a Bug, rather than a Feature, and that when the meds are out of his system, Normality will be restored; and 2) they find some less-reality-breaking solution to replace it.
–

There was no Horse Insurgency while you were absent…none at all…nope… *shifty eyes*

I’m sure there wasn’t, because I am absolutely certain that nobody hereabouts would willingly be party to such a thing.

Almost absolutely certain.

Moderately certain, anyways.

*pause*

All right, rq—turn out your pockets, then put up your hands and all your flippers.*frisks rq for hidden sugar cubes or other Horsey Treats*
–
Hurray for Found Wallet!
–
Dalillama: and don’t forget 3) you can dig up the whole yard and replant it in catnip, if you want, with no landlord to say you nay. Then you can watch buzzed kittehs rolling around in your yard.
:)
-

WMDKitty & rq, I’ve don’t some dumb things, you’ve done some dumb things… but the lighter story reminded me of one of the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen: a buddy of mine was checking for leaks under a vehicle with a Zippo lighter.

Portia… yeah, he’s got a face last I saw him. It has been a few years though, and he’s always had the tendency to sort of lead with his face. Not that he has much choice, he’s got a XXXL head. I met him in the Marines, and they had to special-order him a helmet and gas mask.

My dad just called and said he’s on his way from two states over. He’s staying with my uncle, not me, but I still wish he was capable of giving anybody more notice of his plans. At any rate, he’s arriving several days before his live-in paramour, so we don’t have to tolerate her all week. Which is great. It will be nice to see him. (I guess I have made a couple visits to his area without contacting him at all, so he’s already doing better than me : p )

Happy birthday, katenrala!
— — — — — — — — — —
Improbable Joe
Wallet might have been tangled with a brane from another dimension. That kind of stuff happens to me all the time.
Minnie The Finn,
I just realised that here in north Sweden, we sometimes refer to Finland as The Other Side…(of Kvarken), which makes it sound like communications should be made with an Ouija board.

Question: Has science shown that women and men are different (other than the obvious physical differences in reproductive organs, average physical strength, average height, etc.)? I get the impression from this blog that PZ and many commenters believe that the matter has been settled, and that not only is it incorrect to say that other differences exist, but it is sexist. PZ wrote that Harriet Hall’s statement that “Science has shown that real differences exist” is a sexist statement.

It seems to me that research is leaning towards “real differences” actually existing. I recall a Scientific American article on gender research back in 2005:

“..over the past decade investigators have documented an astonishng array of structural, chemical and functional variations in the brains of males and females…[The view that differences in the brains only referred to mating behaviors, sex behaviors and the hypothalamus] has been knocked aside by a surge of findings that highlight the influence of sex on many areas of cognition and behavior, including memory, emotion, vision, hearing, the processing of faces and the brain’s response to stress hormones….So the existence of widespread anatomical disparities between men and women suggests that sex does influence the way the brain works…at least some sex differences in cognitive function do not result from cultural influences or the hormonal changes associated with puberty—they are there from birth.” The article cites a study in which even male monkeys who were unlikely to be swayed by human cultural influences, preferred “male” toys and the female monkeys tended to prefer “female” toys. Another study showed gender differences in human babies after one day of life. Another suggests that “females may better equipped to tolerate chronic stress than males are.”

So if this article gives a fair account of research into gender differences, Harriet’s statement is well founded. Her prior statement, “I think it is unreasonable to expect that equal numbers of men and women will be attracted to every sphere of human endeavor.” would seem to be reasonable but certainly not proven. The conclusion is something we can all agree with: “We should level the playing field and ensure there are no preventable obstacles, then let the chips fall where they may.” Once we remove obstacles, we may find that more females are attracted to science than males. Is that sexist? I see nothing wrong with her statement either scientifically or culturally. I definitely don’t see that science has shown that there are no innate differences between male and female preferences, or ways of responding to the world. Perhaps commenters here might be able to give me evidence-based arguments in favor of PZ’s point of view.

I stopped reading Sophia’s comment after I realized it was improperly labeled as a “question.” You’re looking for the Thunderdome, dear. To which I am too lazy to link. If you can find the Lounge, you can find the ‘Dome.

[sneak]ImaginesABeach, I realized that after a week of trying. A week! I can’t do it. If I want to re-lurk, I have to stop lurking altogether and not turn the computer off. You guys are like the invisible support network I wish I had in real life (the one off the computer, that is). Not having one out there makes this one all the more important.

philosophia, the Thunderdome is that way. *points in general direction* Vervets, is it? Definitely time I was in bed. *urk*
[/sneak]

No for pets, yes for entangled branes. There was a Twilight Zone/Outer Limits episode exploring the idea that reality is being built section-by-section by crews that exist just a few minutes to a few hours ahead of us, and when we can’t find something that magically appears in an obvious spot the next day, it is because one of the crews is slacking, and a crew further up the line fixes the error.

Allowing the kids in the garage is too much like letting them go outside… NO! I can’t go a day without doing a head-count of the pets at least once, to make sure I didn’t accidentally let one or more of them outside.

rq & Portia, my large-headed friend is both smart AND scramble-brained. Like a whole lot of us, really. He’s smart, he did pretty well in artillery fire direction school, which is a lot of geometry and a little trigonometry and required learning to use a slide rule and log book in case the computers were hit by an EMP blast. But at the same time, he got ripped off by a phone sex operator to the tune of several thousand dollars, because he thought they were in love. Also, one time he dove over a swinging log and knocked himself unconscious.

I definitely am not interested in Thunderdome, where there are a lot of personal insults, often with obscenities thrown in. Not what I’m looking for! I’m interested in more information on this topic. I came here, as a place where you can discuss “whatever you want” in a calm, kindly manner. I actually started the topic with optimism that I would receive informative replies, that it would be a short and simple exchange of information.