What's the matter with kids today and why doesn't anyone want them around? In June, Malaysia Airlines banned babies from many of their first class cabins, prompting other major airlines to consider similar policies.

Lately, complaints about screaming kids are being taken seriously, not only by airlines, but by hotels, movie theaters, restaurants, and even grocery stores.

Earlier this month, McDain's, a Pittsburgh area restaurant that banned kids under 6 became a mascot for the no-kids-zone movement.

According to a Pittsburgh local news poll, more than half of area residents were in favor of the ban. And now big business is paying attention.

"Brat bans could well be the next frontier in destination and leisure-product marketing," writes Robert Klara in an article on the child-free trend in AdWeek.

Klara points to Leavethembehind.com, a travel website for kid-free vacations, with a massive list of yoga retreats, luxury resorts and bargain hotels around the world that ban children.

"Call me a grinch, a misanthrope, a DINK (dual-income-no-kids), or the anti-cute-police, but I hate (hate a thousand times over) ill-behaved children/infants/screaming banshees in upscale restaurants (ok, anywhere, really, but I don’t want any death threats)," writes Charlotte Savino on Travel and Leisure's blog. She lists a slew of a popular destination restaurants with kid-free areas and policies for travelers looking for quiet vacation dining.

Traveling is one thing, but what about in kids' own hometowns? Should kids been banned from local movie theaters, like they were at a recent adults-only Harry Potter screening? In Texas, one cinema chain has even flipped the model, banning kids under six altogether, except on specified "baby days".

Even running errands with toddlers may be changing. This summer Whole Foods stores in Missouri are offering child-free shopping hours (kids are allowed inside but childcare service is available for parents who want to shop kid-free.) Meanwhile in Florida, a controversy brews over whether kids can be banned from a condominium's outdoor area. That's right, some people don't even want kids outdoors.

When did kids become the equivalent of second-hand smoke? Blame a wave of childless adults with money to spare. "Empty nesters continue to wield a huge swath of discretionary spending dollars, and population dips in first-world countries mean more childless couples than ever," writes AdWeek's Klara.

Catering to the child-free community may be good for business but is it good for parents? It could help narrow choices and make kid-friendly environments even kid-friendlier. And let's be honest, babies won't miss flying first class. They won't even remember it. But their moms and dads will.

Most parents with young children have self-imposed limits on spending and leisure. This new movement imposes limits set by the public. And the public isn't as child-friendly as it used to be. As businesses respond to their new breed of 'first-class' clientele, are parents in danger of becoming second-class citizens?

I'm kinda on the fence about this.

I mean I can understand if you've just dropped $4000 on a first class 18 hour flight to Australia and don't wanna hear "MOMMY!! WAAAAHHH!! " through half of the flight. But I also think that if you just dropped $8000 for you and your 4 year old to both take first class than you should be granted that which you paid for too.

I kinda see this as backlash against irresponsible parents who go out TOO MUCH with young children. NO, your 3 year does not need to see and should not be seeing Harry Potter on opening weekend. If you can't find a baby sitter I say: tough shit. Parenting is about sacrifice, get used to it._________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.http://about.me/omardrake

Been on both sides of this one. As a parent I didn't take my kids anywhere unless I was certain their behavior would be appropriate. When they are too little to control themselves they didn't go to movie theatres or eateries. The one exception would be road trips and even then either my wife or I stood ready to ferry them out of ear shot should they get grumpy.

So I'm inclined to agree that this is a backlash against inconsiderate parents. If they want a kid free niche market so be it. It only opens things up for other venues to take advantage of the newly disenfranchised customers.

Having worked in hospitality, I can say there is nothing quite so nightmarish as unsupervised children. They really do upset other guests, they really do break stuff (Sometimes VERY expensive stuff that's a few hundred years old), and they really do present one extended time bomb of a liability issue for the property owners.

There's a lot more to this phenomenon though. Lots of establishments are banning all sorts of things people seem to have come to a consensus about being annoying. Theatres that outright ban cell phones (IE if you are seen with one on or not, in use or not you will be asked to leave). I say let individual owners do what they want. If they go overboard the market should correct itself pretty quickly. The backlash from parents and special interest groups associated with them might be surprisingly bad. If it doesn't self correct the government can always step in. They did with smoking in businesses in many states._________________"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid" ~ SGT John Stryker from "Sands of Iwo Jima".

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: Re: I got lost in every public area I ever went to as a kid

Thy Brilliance wrote:

I wouldn't trust any company that exploited kids for their own profit to begin with.

So this is a step in the right direction.

Well you really shouldn't trust any company that engages in any sort of exploitation._________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.http://about.me/omardrake

This has begged a lot of questions for me. I mean, I know it's like the biggest cliche ever to say "I was never that bad as a kid." but it's seriously not about me personally... I really don't remember screaming children ever being as big a deal as they are lately.

I personally despise being around screaming children throwing tantrums. I do not have the biggest pool of examples, but it seems like kids are ALWAYS screaming and throwing tantrums in public. When I make comments like "I never want kids." all I get is a smile and a "Its different when they're your own." like that somehow makes it okay that a five year old is trying (badly) to manipulate me into doing all the work in the game he insisted I play with him and is now shrieking at the top of his lungs because I wouldn't.

Maybe I'm just stuck being around a lot of really spoiled kids, but "They're normally not like this" falls pretty flat when you know they're not normally like that because the person caring for them let them get away with whatever the fuck they want until they're suddenly in public and it's no longer okay because there is now an audience.

Is this seriously a thing? Is this really bigger than my personal zone of experiences? Because if it is, if this is how my generation is raising their kids... then I really don't want kids. Everybody that told sixteen year old me that I'll change my mind when I'm older was totally wrong because it's ten years later and the idea still horrifies me a little.

(Also, no offense meant to anyone my age with kids reading this, you're totally exempt from my musings because I'm pretty sure I've never met your children. As I said, my personal examples are VERY limited.)

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:46 am Post subject: Re: I got lost in every public area I ever went to as a kid

Thy Brilliance wrote:

I wouldn't trust any company that exploited kids for their own profit to begin with.

So this is a step in the right direction.

There's a difference between catering to families and exploiting kids. Of course, a lot of companies do seem to have trouble with exactly where the line between the two is, so I suppose I'll grant you that._________________"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid" ~ SGT John Stryker from "Sands of Iwo Jima".

I really don't see what the issue is here. Let me boil it down for those that are confused, defensive, or just plan crazy:

1) No one is seriously suggesting that children aren't a part of the world. Neither is anyone trying to make it so they can't leave your homes and lead normal, healthy lives.

2) Children will be children, and while everyone has had bad experiences with the unruly children of lax parents, any rational adult will also admit that CHILDREN ARE NOT ADULTS. Stay with me on this. We don't expect children to behave like adults. That's crazy. We also know that you can't reason with the very young, so sometimes they're going to act out and there is only so much their parents can do.

3) That being said, here's the bottom line: There are some places and times where children are NOT WELCOME. Some of these places are common sense: adult movies, sex toy shops, and bars. These are not venues with an atmosphere that most sane parents would want their kids exposed to. Let's take that logic a step further and try this one out: did you know that there are places that cater specifically to children? That seems like the most natural thing in the world, doesn't it? Restaurants, movies, and amusement parks that not only welcome children, but are made SPECIFICALLY FOR THEM. Now, on the other side of the coin, is it so weird to think that places like that should exist for ADULTS?

4) No one wants to ban your kids from Chucky Cheese or McDonalds. Chili's, Applebee's, and a host of others are more than happy to cater to the whole family. Truth is though, sometimes people want to go somewhere nice and not have to deal with kids...their own included. Why should it be odd then that the 5-star, black-tie-required place might be geared towards only adults? We don't want to tell you that you can't eat where you want or see a particular movie, or fly whenever or however you wish. We're not banning
you or your kids from all places, just a few or at certain times. Times
when we are willing to go out of our way and even pay more for a little
peace. We're not cutting you out of Sunday mornings at Friendly's...but
maybe movies after 10pm, when your little kids are probably in bed (or
should be) anyways.

5) Parents are not second-class citizens. Having kids is hard. Most of us, myself included, who do not have or maybe even want children of our own haven't been living in a bubble. We have siblings, cousins, nieces and nephews. Our friends have had children. We see you struggle each and every day to balance your kids, your jobs and your relationship. It isn't our intention to make things harder for you.

6) And lastly, it seems to me that there is a lot of people crying "selfish" and "entitlement" and that makes me think there is one last thing we need to clear up: We make as many accommodations for you as we can. We pick up the shifts at work when you're on maternity leave or junior is sick. We pay school taxes so your kids can get an education. Even without children, we have friends and family that we love. We have lives and obligations outside of our jobs. We are, as much as you, as much as your children, a part of this world. We are not asking for any special treatment. All we want is to have our wants and needs met, same as yours.

Now, can we all just take a deep breath and look at what one another is saying without immediately becoming defensive and lashing out?

......

We're comfortable with all sorts of arbitrary discriminatory rules in business.

This is simply more of the same. Businesses should be and are allowed to limit customers & behaviors in order to provide a certain experience. The expansion isn't unidirectional, either. Some theaters, for example, offer explicitly "kid-friendly" showings of movies—some theaters even do sing-alongs of Disney musicals.

I really, really want to see this trend continue. I want to see nice restaurants that have a separate, on-site child dining area. I want to see bars with zany dress codes, or bars that ban college students. And I really, really want to see more businesses that do not allow children under a certain age inside.

This is simply more of the same. Businesses should be and are allowed to limit customers & behaviors in order to provide a certain experience. The expansion isn't unidirectional, either. Some theaters, for example, offer explicitly "kid-friendly" showings of movies—some theaters even do sing-alongs of Disney musicals.

I really, really want to see this trend continue. I want to see nice restaurants that have a separate, on-site child dining area. I want to see bars with zany dress codes, or bars that ban college students. And I really, really want to see more businesses that do not allow children under a certain age inside.

The more you think about it, the more you realize it's just a logical result of people becoming more educated consumers and knowing exactly what they want._________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.http://about.me/omardrake

I think, like everything else, there are acceptable limits on when and where it's okay to ban children. High class restaurants trying to maintain a sedate atmosphere don't bother me at all - I wonder why the parent of a toddler would take a child to an expensive restaurant. I'd be less okay with it the more widespread it became. As long as it stays niche, so parents and kids still have plenty of options, I don't really care.

It certainly bothers me less than the trend in S. Florida to try and make a topless version of everything. At one point (when I still lived there) they had a topless donut shop and a topless coffee house. Plus a ton of hot dog stands operated by girls in thongs and pasties. Oh, and a topless drive-through coffee stand._________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

a topless everything does seem to me to be going a bit far in the adults-only realm.

but i'm with bree o'neill. we're not anti-child, but give some thought to where you should be taking your kids. i am really tired of dealing with other people's children when i am grocery shopping - kids having tantrums, kids running around the aisles, knee-high kids just standing in the middle of the aisle where they are likely to get hit by a cart because you can't see them, and of course parents arguing with their kids about what they can and can't have. why does the whole family have to do the grocery shopping? and if your kid is making a fuss, they obviously aren't enjoying it - why subject them to it? i know there are single-parent households, and i understand that those parents may have to take their kids with them shopping - but i suspect most of the kids i see have two parents - why can't one of them watch the kids while the other runs to the store?

but yeah - there are, and always will be, plenty of venues that cater to kids. take your kids to those restaurants, and those stores, and leave the adult-oriented places to us adults._________________aka: neverscared!
a flux of vibrant matter

The more you think about it, the more you realize it's just a logical result of people becoming more educated consumers and knowing exactly what they want.

I think it's more a logical result of the pool of available consumers and potential revenue for any given business expanding enormously as population centers become increasingly crowded and relocation/transit becomes cheaper & easier. Information plays its part, but even perfect information can't close the gap on missed revenue that specialized businesses used to face regularly.