What if the BG tries to leave nicely?

This is a discussion on What if the BG tries to leave nicely? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Step aside, let him go, let the cops do their job. If he is not treating you, you do not want to shoot....

Let him go the threat is over if you force him to stay you can be charged with wrongful imprisonment, kid napping, or other host of charges. let them go if he wants to the threat is over call the police give description.

May I strongly disagree here? If someone has broken into my home and I order him to the ground until the police arrive...I'm going to be charged with wrongful imprisonment? I don't think so...even if he wants to leave (and I sure he does)...he's not going anywhere, and he's not moving...

Well, I did say I thought my response was slightly askew from the original post.

As a instructor once told me... You should never even break leather unless you have already committed to pulling the trigger.

This is where I disagree. I think you shouldn't draw unless you are justified in shooting, but that does not mean that shots must be fired. One of the arguments the pro-RKBA community cites is the apparently large number of crimes that are circumvented by the presence of a gun---without shots being fired. Not shooting, in my mind, simply must be at least an option right up until the moment you actually break the shot.

You use every tool available before drawing a gun, drawing is your last and final resort and you draw to shoot and end a threat [...]

I'd like to think there is a range of options between "I draw my gun to intimidate any potential threats" and "I must sheath my blade in the blood of my enemies". That's what I am getting at. I do not want trigger pulling to be an automatic, conditioned response to drawing a gun, because I think there are times when things can change in that one particular second.

I lived to protect my loved ones another day, that is all that matters when it is all said and done and I bet we can both agree on that.

Indeed. I think our only difference is a matter of degree, but that's why I called it hair-splitting.

To me this is having a hammer and every problem looking like a nail sort of situation. If he is backing down and bugging out all you can do is be a good witness in my book. Get on the horn with 911 ASAP and be vigilant. I don't think he'd come back. A- thats not BG logic (rob a house where you know there are armed people??) B- I doubt you'd ever run into a BG who was smart enough to just leave.

I believe his intentions are bad if he is in my house ruffling through my personnals. I would shoot first then ask questions later..... no matter how nice he/she is, conversation would be none. Like retsup99 said 100% compliance or be helped to the ground violently!!!

Let's say you find a BG in your house during the day so there is plenty of light. Not only was he was not expecting you, he was not expecting you with a gun. So let's say he is really smart and the conversation goes like this:

You: Stop! Hands in the air!

BG complies.

You: On the ground, NOW!

BG: No. I am going to just leave very slowly.

He then proceeds to keep his hands fully extended in the air making a very big V with his arms, turns his back to you and starts to proceed to the front door, all the time keeping his arms in that big V. At no time does he make a threatening motion. As he gets to the front door, he says:

BG: I am going to lower my right hand and open the door. Then I am going to leave.

I have never heard of a BG doing this, but what would you do? He obviously knows where you live and knows you have guns. You can't justify shooting him in the back, but if you let him go, he most probably will return with buddies. You don't want to physically confront him. So what are the options?

Stop? Hands up? On the ground?

How about BANG BANG BANG... drop the weapon. Shouldn't have been in my house in the first place

Assuming he had a car, I would do one of the following (if I can beat him to the car):
1. Shoot the tires
2. Take the keys
3. Get the plate number

If he came on foot I would try and get him down or slow him down for the cops.

The problem with 1 and 2 are: 1. If you shoot out his tires you could possibly be charged for discharging a firearm or reckless endangerment. 2. If you take his keys they may try to charge you with grand theft auto. Not sure how those laws would play out, but I really doubt he would give you the keys anyway.

Let's say you find a BG in your house during the day so there is plenty of light. Not only was he was not expecting you, he was not expecting you with a gun. So let's say he is really smart and the conversation goes like this:

You: Stop! Hands in the air!

BG complies.

You: On the ground, NOW!

BG: No. I am going to just leave very slowly.

He then proceeds to keep his hands fully extended in the air making a very big V with his arms, turns his back to you and starts to proceed to the front door, all the time keeping his arms in that big V. At no time does he make a threatening motion. As he gets to the front door, he says:

BG: I am going to lower my right hand and open the door. Then I am going to leave.

I have never heard of a BG doing this, but what would you do? He obviously knows where you live and knows you have guns. You can't justify shooting him in the back, but if you let him go, he most probably will return with buddies. You don't want to physically confront him. So what are the options?

I would just shoot him. I wouldn't give him time to talk.
I am protected by the Castle Doctrine here in Oklahoma.
Shoot first, ask questions later.

Join the NRA!
The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting. It is about keeping the government in check. This requires that the citizenry is well armed and at all times has immediate access to arms.

I'd also try the "toss 'em your cell phone and make 'em call the cops" routine if possible.

Agree with everything but this part. You are kidding me right?
Can you shoot him if he throws the phone at you?
Here in SC this type question was part of my CCW class & once the BG turns away and starts out of the house you cannot shoot them in the back. The threat is over! We were told not to chase them to their car, which probably wouldn't be a good idea anyway, or shoot their tires out.
Now I know other SCarolinians may not agree but this was just one class and one answer. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just what I was told.

Here in texas,if you break into a house the consequences are being arrested and jailed if you're lucky,or Death if you choose that route.Here in the last few months i believe burglars are starting to get the message.

Legally? Varies by state, but if the threat was TRULY not present (hands WAY out and visible - heck, let's say the guy is nekkid), sure seems like the prosecuter could tear you apart.

Morally? "Removing the jackal" is part of the government's job (I mean, for reals, from Scripture through the Constitution: that's what governments are supposed to do). I can participate if I'm the warden throwing the switch, the cop in the gunfight, or the citizen under threat under our laws... which make me part of the 'system' rather than acting on my own.

If it's at night, you can't see whether the fellow is a threat or not: shooting him would be legitimate. In the daylight, you CAN tell if there is an ongoing threat, and shooting in the absence of such a threat would be wrong. Not to say I wouldn't want to, and certainly I could imagine doing so if I thought there was a threat! But the OP set it up as a no-threat-now situation, and I cannot shoot without liability (in this world and the next).

If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. Exodus 22:2-3

The verse says, "the thief", so this is discussing a true "here-to-take-stuff" guy rather than "here-to-rape-torture-and-murder" guy. But contrasting night vs. day indicates that the guilt is tied to the homeowner's ability to identify the threat here: in bad light, one can't know if the fellow is a merely a thief or is truly a rapist/murderer, so the use of lethal force is warranted. And the issue of self-defense is assumed; the discussion is on the extent of it vis-a-vis the threat.

----------------------------------------------------

Note: regarding the fellow returning - landmines!

Last edited by Paymeister; March 15th, 2008 at 10:37 AM.
Reason: clarification

Agree with everything but this part. You are kidding me right?
Can you shoot him if he throws the phone at you?
Here in SC this type question was part of my CCW class & once the BG turns away and starts out of the house you cannot shoot them in the back. The threat is over! We were told not to chase them to their car, which probably wouldn't be a good idea anyway, or shoot their tires out.
Now I know other SCarolinians may not agree but this was just one class and one answer. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just what I was told.

The FL statutes I quoted would seem to indicate that as long as the BG was in your house, you can presume violent intent and shoot him; however, I think you'd still have a BIG problem if you were to shoot him in the back, particularly if it could be construed that he was on his way out. As Gutmacher might say: "test case time!"

The FL statutes I quoted would seem to indicate that as long as the BG was in your house, you can presume violent intent and shoot him; however, I think you'd still have a BIG problem if you were to shoot him in the back, particularly if it could be construed that he was on his way out. As Gutmacher might say: "test case time!"

I don't wanna be a test case.

-JT

You've missed the other part of the legal presumptions in Florida Statute 776.013:

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

Regardless of where you happen to shoot the intruder, you are presumed to have been in reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm.

While I never, ever advocate shooting someone who is retreating and isn't a threat, the statute appears to consider such an action reasonable.