From what I've read on wowhead, this can be cast (no cost) in feral forms. How is it useful for PvE (even solo questing PvE)? As I understand it, it seems to be primarily a PvP talent.

Kauroth

12-19-2007, 03:58 PM

It's an escape mechanism.

Highly situational though.

You have to be outside.

Basically if you're getting whupped on and you need a minute to heal, pop NG and when they get rooted, run like the wind, shift out and heal.

tlbj6142

12-19-2007, 04:00 PM

OK. That's what I thought.

Trixtaa

12-19-2007, 07:54 PM

It would be very difficult (for me at least) to kite warriors/rogues/pets without it. I try not to rely on it but it is a useful backup escape when Bash/Warstomp/Cyclone/Roots gets resisted/removed.

Ziada

12-21-2007, 01:09 PM

I use it in PVE quite often. I'm lazy, and I don't like letting mobs beat on me while I cast root if I can avoid it.

Um.. I'm also Resto, which influences that opinion a lot. ;)

AppleJax

12-24-2007, 08:34 PM

From what I've read on wowhead, this can be cast (no cost) in feral forms. How is it useful for PvE (even solo questing PvE)? As I understand it, it seems to be primarily a PvP talent. It's an emergency escape mechanism in PvP and PvE. For boomkins and trees. Ferals should put points into, y'know, feral, and their secondary tree should be resto for Omen of Clarity. Compare Furor, Naturalist, and Omen of Clarity to anything the Balance tree offers ferals. It doesn't. So don't. Unless you're a tree.

I've been toying with the idea of a boomkin and have been doing some homework. Honestly those points are better invested elsewhere. The 40/0/21 balance build does not include Nature's grasp; it does include Nature's Swiftness.

Spend your points to increase your dps/tanking/healing. We don't need another way to escape. We're already pretty good at that.

Abies

12-27-2007, 04:49 AM

Spend your points to increase your dps/tanking/healing. We don't need another way to escape. We're already pretty good at that.

Oh, I disagree. 1 point in Grasp of Nature is something every Feral that is doing PvP should have.

AppleJax

12-27-2007, 03:47 PM

Oh, I disagree. 1 point in Grasp of Nature is something every Feral that is doing PvP should have. On the one hand, 1 point isn't a big deal. On the other hand, only 1 point means it only has a 35% chance of going off. Which seems to obviate its value as an escape mechanism. If you're "escaping," you don't have the time or hit points to let people beat the crap out of you while you hope and pray to your god that NG procs.

Trixtaa

12-28-2007, 02:25 AM

On the one hand, 1 point isn't a big deal. On the other hand, only 1 point means it only has a 35% chance of going off. Which seems to obviate its value as an escape mechanism. If you're "escaping," you don't have the time or hit points to let people beat the crap out of you while you hope and pray to your god that NG procs.

I think you're underestimating 35% chance to cast roots (per hit). The thing is that it is 35% to work and if it doesn't, well it stays up for 45seconds (or however long it is) and only wears off if it runs out of time or it is used up. 35% is roughly 1 in 3 hits.

If you're escaping and you can't survive 3-4 hits (ideally), even if it went off on the first hit, you'd be dead. Obviously, as you cast NG you're in the process of running away so you don't have to 'wait' for them to beat the crap out of you ;D

tl;dr - NG is probably best talent skill for 1 talent point (in the first tier of all our Talent Trees.)

AppleJax

12-28-2007, 03:56 AM

tl;dr - NG is probably best talent skill for 1 talent point (in the first tier of all our Talent Trees.) I disagree, based on use. How often will that single point be of use? How much use will it be? If you invest 1 talent point into Wrath, you're both using that point all the time and it gives a real boost to your dps. Same with Ferocity; bears and cats are constantly using the skills Ferocity makes cheaper to use, and because of Ferocity they can use them more often, increasing dps much like Wrath. Imp MotW is also something you'll be using all the time; though its effect is less inspiring than Ferocity or Wrath, 35% more from your MotW bonus to INT and AGI and STR and STAM gives a very real dps bonus, nomatter what your spec.

NG does not impress me. How often every hour will you use it? Not alot. And on those occassions, how often will it be useful? 1 point is not enough to save your butt.

Consider this prototypical balance build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xcrzifoxuVZZxxctzo) (40/0/21). What are you going to sacrifice to get NG? You'd have to cut a talent you are using all the time that has a very clear and very real benefit to you.

Abies

12-28-2007, 06:56 AM

It's an emergency escape mechanism in PvP and PvE. For boomkins and trees. Ferals should put points into, y'know, feral, and their secondary tree should be resto for Omen of Clarity. Compare Furor, Naturalist, and Omen of Clarity to anything the Balance tree offers ferals. It doesn't. So don't. Unless you're a tree.

You are the one who said it is something for Trees and Doomkins only.

I said that Ferals can use it very well. In the arena and on the battleground it is one of our most useful abilities to *really* annoy other melee classes. You do not use it exclusively in emergency situations. If you wait until you are nearly dead before you use it, you are not playing very well.
If you are in a fight where your enemy does a lot of damage (usually something you notice in the first few hits), you heal early and you heal often. At 7000 of 11000 health? Activate roots and wait till that Warrior is stuck, then heal. Whether it takes one second or five does not matter in that situation.

Another good use of Nature's Grasp is as more of an offensive utility. You can use it on any class (that hits you) to force them to use one of their cooldowns to free themselves. Especially in the arena, it is the most important part of any tactic to force the enemy to use up his cooldowns before you burst them.

So how often every hour will I use it you asked?
If I'm doing PvP, a couple of times. Sometimes a few dozen times. Really depends on the enemies I face.
And 1 point isn't there to save your butt when you are down to a meager 1000 health. It is there to heal yourself earlier, as you should.

Veriden

12-29-2007, 12:22 PM

I personally think it's better to compare NG's use when looking at a full build.

Now, for example. Say I was creating a PvP spec for feral (something I always wanted but couldn't due to raiding).

In PvE, there's not much difference between any. You can't use roots in instances, Ferocious Bite sucks for DPS, Thick Hide would be useful, but if you were a MT you wouldn't be considering this build to begin with and the same applies to Survival of the Fittest. Improved Mark of the Wild is a terrible talent, just like Feral Aggression, and the benefit would be severely minor. Nature's focus looks good, but that 14% reduction won't help you a ton. Intensity is pretty decent, but more often than not, you won't be casting a lot of castbar spells, and your mana regen is so piddly to begin with. The Enrage is kind of nice, but you'd still need to melee to really get anything out of it.

But then there's PvP Comparison:

vs. Melee

Nature's Grasp gives you a lot of options, if you're clever. You can use it pre-emptively or right around when you need it to root them in place. This allows you to back off or run off and restealth. You can regen mana and health during the time they are rooted. But wait, what if they can get out of it? Good. You can use it to get them to waste a cooldown. NG is a fodder 1-point talent, with a 1min cooldown. No mana cost, either. So any melee on you would have to expend cooldowns or mana to remove it, else let you regenerate. It does damage over time, so the melee can't bandage either.

Not good for an escape tool? Well, true, we have lots, but this just improves our arsenal. As a matter of fact, it's good to use to escape ferals, and I even used it against other feral druids. Why? Root them in place and they either shift to spend mana, or I wait to re-enter stealth and pounce again. No matter what, Nature's grasp will provide you a small edge over other melee--and even hunter pets and wing clipping hunters.

But what about the other talent points in comparison?

Feral Aggression: Bleeds will do more damage against most melee. The AP reduction is kind of nice, but it's very minor. Not to mention, if we're seeking to reduce damage so much, NG provides a brief respite from damage, and if they use abilities to get out of it, all the better; this leaves them more vulnerable for cyclone or maim or a new roots.

Thick Hide: Small benefit in mitigation. PvP gear doesn't have a huge number of armor, anyway. Same applies from Feral Aggression regarding the AP reduction: a rooted melee does no damage.

Survival of the Fittest: This one would be the only talent I'd consider in place of NG. It has a small passive gain, and it's not too bad, but that +1% stats isn't going to give you a lot more to stand with. The 1% crit reduction isn't too bad, but resilience does the same thing, and again, the melee can't crit you if they're rooted.

Improved Mark of the Wild: Not worth more than a mention.

Nature's Focus: Decent versus melee, but it won't guarantee your cast anymore than 0% would. NG, however, gives you a much larger chance of no spell pushback.

Intensity: Not too bad... But your mana regen wouldn't give you a whole lot more from this talent, as most ferals have very little spirit and mp/5, if any at all. The Enrage bonus is decent, but, again, you can't do much with 4 extra rage.

vs Casters

Nature's Grasp's only benefit is dispel fodder, which isn't too bad in itself; it could protect that MotW and OoC, or even a HoT, which might guarantee a little more healing from a class with precious mana.

The only relevant talents in this are:

Survival of the fittest: the +1% stats wouldn't be too bad, but as an overall (factoring not only caster fighters), the Nature's Grasp provides more utility.

Nature's Focus: Kind of eh as most casters can silence to begin with, not providing you with much protection, and spells will give you less pushback than melee. It's still no guarantee.

Intensity: See prevous mentions on intensity.

So anyway, I know I bantered on a lot. But the point I'm trying to get at... When compared to the other options, NG provides a lot more utility: escape method, dispel fodder, cooldown forcer, re-stealth, chance to get off a heal, and a respite from damage.

TL;DR: Nature's Grasp has its uses, just like every other talent, and it's up to the player to realize and use them offensively and defensively. And in most cases, Nature's Grasp provides more benefits than the other talents made available for ferals; none of this considers PvE/PvP Balance and PvE/PvP Resto (I'd get it for PvP resto and maybe PvE Resto, not for PvE Balance, and maybe for PvP Balance [never looked at that kind of build before]).

/fin

AppleJax

12-29-2007, 01:58 PM

TL;DR: Nature's Grasp has its uses, just like every other talent, and it's up to the player to realize and use them offensively and defensively. And in most cases, Nature's Grasp provides more benefits than the other talents made available for ferals; none of this considers PvE/PvP Balance and PvE/PvP Resto (I'd get it for PvP resto and maybe PvE Resto, not for PvE Balance, and maybe for PvP Balance [never looked at that kind of build before]). I see it's use for ferals in pvp. :) I've just been horribly biased against pvp I guess. Though even in pve, where do you spend that last point? Lookit this pve/halfway decent pvp (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0zZxGMsfroezioVxIz) build. (I didn't opt for the 15% chance to avoid fear and stun, hence "halfway decent.") Where else would you spend the last point?

Veriden

12-29-2007, 03:42 PM

Yeah, there's not many other spots. NG's offers a lot of bang for one point, being in the first row and a whole new skill itself.

When I MT'd, OT'd, DPS'd, and PvP'd, I used a build nearly similar to yours, with just two talent swaps:

1/46/14 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0zZxhGsfrRezioVxhz)

There's really just too many goodies in Feral for... ferals, and resto has a lot of really good ones early on. >< Not that I'm complaining, though.

Annikk

01-06-2008, 12:11 AM

I would side with Abies on the 1 point in Nature's Grasp thing - pvp (and arenas in particular) isn't about efficient damage, it's about CC and escape mechanisms and survivability and playing "faster" than the enemy.

With that said, I pvp a lot, and I don't have a point in Nature's Grasp...

-Annikk

WoWard

01-06-2008, 05:26 AM

This is one of those Talents that is a matter of personal preference, playstyle and freedom of choice i think..

I'm feral and I have 1pt in NG (35% as mentioned is like 1 in 3 hits so is very likely to proc' sometime useful most of the time)

I PVP some (not hardcore or anything though) and as i run on a slower, older laptop i don't instance as much but i've found it useful right from the start (even spent on of my first 12 pts to get it)

I find it useful for .. (This is all outside of course. If they decide to ever make it useable inside - wooahhh.. /purr)

*) CC'ing a mob (NG takes out one melee mob on me for a while so i can kill the others first)

*) Gank-Avoidance (anytime i'm wandering the zones, grinding or questing and a sneaky Alliance tries to catch me unawares, pop this and off i run.. can then stealth and come back to teach him a lesson or escape)

*) Grinding/Solo (Cast it when i need a heal when i'm feral and when it gets my enemy i can move a few steps, shift & heal without interruption)

*) PVP - I love casting this before i go into the fray so it catches the enemy and allows me to decide on how to deal with them.. especially love using it on those sneaky rogues trying to backstab me, warriors who want to get up close and personal or shaman/druids/paladins with some nice melee proc' as it allows me to avoid there extra power.

For that 1 pt I get a lost of extra utillity/versatility so i really do believe it's worth it (for me anyways).. For the do-bit-of-everything, versatile hybrid it's an awsomely cheap way to add some extra control over many situations.

;)

/purr

Greldek

01-10-2008, 04:24 PM

I even use it just when grinding quest mobs whenever it's up.

It's still a dot, and free damage is good damage.

tlbj6142

01-10-2008, 04:41 PM

It's still a dot, and free damage is good damage.Whoa! I completely forgot it actually did damage (I just think of it as some sort of odd CC-like ability). Might have to reconsider getting it at lvl 70.

valkry

02-06-2008, 08:46 PM

I'm a tree and I maxed it out. How is it good for pve? Well, for when you have more than one move on you and pushback is insane, and for when world pvp happens while you're pveing. Very hndy against rogues and hunters pets.