With the fix, the head airbags work properly and the dummy's head is protected. But [IIHS President Brian] O'Neill says because of the car's design, the driver's torso takes a heavy blow, possible broken bones and organ damage.

If you were in a real world crash of this severity, you would not walk away,&#148; says O&#146;Neill. &#147;You'd be hurt really badly.&#148;

That is not an option for my next car. I'd initially held back from buying a new Legacy or Outback due to the lack of amenities. I ended up being lucky and will await an SOA announcement that the Legacy/Outback front seat side airbags have been changed so they actually do protect the front row occupants.

I should stop now. Indeed, I fully intend for this to be my last comment on this subject. I apologize to all of those who have had enough.

I'm not an engineering match for almost everyone - if not everyone - who has addressed this issue. But, I must be missing something here??

Granted, the IIHS test result is disturbing. But, doesn't the Toyota Camry recall, after the good rating from IIHS, suggest SOME caution and raise SOME questions about the test?

And, doesn't the comprative excellence of the Subarau in the NCAP tests count for anything??!! The Subaru outperformed EVERY car tested/listed by the Austalian NCAP. With 5 Stars, it surpassed these vehicles (all with dual front, side and head bags): Mercedees M class, Range Rover, Audi A4, BMW 3 class, Honda Accord Euro, Mazda 6, Passat and the Volvo S80. It also scored higher, in aggregate, than other 5 Star rated: Volvo S40 (2004), Volvo XC 90 and BMW X5. That is, scored higher in the same tests!! In most cases, the differences were in the front offset crashes. Should we be concerned about everyone of these cars that performed worse than the Subaru on the same, front/front offset crash tests? Shouldn't all of these vehicles be taken off everyone's lists, too?

Admiitedly, I'm a layperson - a historian by training and an organizer and political activist, by vocation and avocation So, I really am out of my depth on the engineering/science of this. But, I don't think I'm stupid. I AM concerned about the IIHS test and eagerly await tests on the wagons (Legacy and, especially, OB). But, if the Subaru out-scores/performs all of these other vehicles in the SAME tests...seems to me that this is important. The OB at least equalled or surpassed all of the vehicles, listed above, on the NCAP side impact test (which some have dismissed, in comparison to the IIHS test); and, it surpassed ALL of them on the front crash tests!

Seems to me that the TOTAL package re:safety is superior. Since I cannot choose how I'm going to be hit/crash should that ever happen, the NCAP tests, at least, suggest that one would be hard-pressed to find overall/total protection better than the Subaru.

Ken, I have found that the Bass Booster works pretty well for the low end sound. Most of the treble comes through my system pretty well. The same setting sounds pretty good through cheap headphones, too.

Best thing to do is just find a rather loud, monotonous song (rap would work :-) and play around with each setting. Every album has a different tone quality to start with, depending on what the audio engineers did to the original tunes.

I have to admit am having WAY too much fun with the OB, the iPod, and FM. (Does anyone speak in whole words these days?)

FWIW, I may have even less engineering knowledge than you, and will say right up front that I would not permit this issue alone to stop me from buying the car. Frankly, I'm still somewhat more bothered by the braking issue that surfaced here recently.

That said, my concern is not how well Subaru performs *relative to other vehicles* in tests. My concern is whether the vehicle provides a sufficient level of real world side impact protection. To the extent the Aussie test would indicate that it does, so much the better. To the extent the IIHS test, and, in particular, the remarks of the official quoted above, indicate that the vehicle does not, that *has* to be seen as something of a negative IMO, unless one wants to dismiss a seemingly reputable testing body and its work--regardless of whether there are conflicting reports from elsewhere.

The other issue that I believe is at work here is that Subaru markets on safety--not as much as Volvo perhaps, but to a considerable extent. When a company creates expectations, it also can expect disappointment at the first sign those expectations may not be fulfilled.

1. Nearly 4k miles, and nary a rattle or suspicious noise. Very quiet, comfy, nimble, and I still pinch myself every time I climb in!

2. Brake dust on the wheels is less now, so I am assuming the brakes will soon quit making a mess on my clear car :-)

3. No one yet makes an iPod dock connector for the Subaru-specific audio harness. Keep watching those boards, though, because they can't be far off. Adapters for other models are coming out every day. We've all caught the "Beemer bug".

4. MPG still creeping up. I averaged well over 27mpg on a mostly highway trip across town, about 80 miles round trip. Average mpg for these last 100 miles is up to around 24.3...not bad for mostly city driving. Probably would have been better had I discovered that nail in my left rear tire sooner...

5. Anyone else having problems with your headlights blinding oncoming traffic? I've been flashed several tmes (headlights, that is :-) I am certain folks think I have my brights on. I will have the dealer check those when I go in for another oil change (soon).

PS: on a funny side note: last night at a homeowners association meeting (I am a board member), we had a local police officer as a guest speaker talking about block watch, and specifically about watching for car thieves. In his attempt to make up an example, he said "Let's say there's this guy trying to steal a champagne gold SUV"...I had to blurt out loud, "Hey! Wait a minute...that's MY car!" Everyone in the room had a good chuckle out of that.

"Granted, the IIHS test result is disturbing. But, doesn't the Toyota Camry recall, after the good rating from IIHS, suggest SOME caution and raise SOME questions about the test?"

rsorganize- Im not quite clear on what that sentence means. The recall of the Camry's side impact aibags seems to be incredibly similar in nature to the one that affected 140 early Legacies, and involved improper manufacture/installation. Certainly, the Camry that the IIHS tested with the optional Side Curtain airbags and accompanying seat mounted chest airbags, didnt suffer from any issue.

So what is exactly is the caution/concern that is raised?

The NCAP side impact tests are an incredibly good waste of money. The barrier that strikes the vehicle is closest in profile to an early 80s midsize, is non-deformable, AND NHTSA merits stars in the side impact WITHOUT factoring in Head Injury Criterion (HIC), even though that measure is taken. Basically, anything with a higher center of gravity (minivans, SUVs, p/u) get 5 stars. How is that a valid comparison?

Reply to #2759"I'm surprised the 2.5i's brakes are bigger than the Outback's, but the point above it valid - if it has enough power to lock the brakes, bigger rotors will primarily only help in reducing brake fade."

-juice

Though this post was sometime ago, I just wanted to respond:

Yes, larger rotors will primarily only help in reducing brake fade. But what about hauling full vehicle loads or towing, then the brake fade becomes much more of an issue when either braking normally or in an emergency. It is a shame that the Outbacks don't have the bigger brakes like the GT given the performance specs for the XT and 3.0 models. What was Subaru thinking when specing these vehicles for brakes that are more upscale, heavier, and just as powerful as the GT?

I also would take issue with the stock tires Subaru has choosen, i.e. Bridgestone Potenzas. Web searches on tire reviews like those on tirerack.com, will show that these tires are not well received by their owners for wear, handling on wet and snow covered surfaces.

These are the only major issues I can come up with (for now) that I'd like Subaru to address in future revisions.

Let's be serious. The IIHS test also needs to be addressed by Subaru, especially if the brand is going to continue to tout its committment to safety. IMO, its not a deal stopper (obviously it wasnt for me), but it merits due attention.

Also, I have Bridgestone Potenzas on my Nissan Sentra 2.5, and I litterally have NO complaints. I actually think they are a great tire for the price, and in 28,000 miles, Ive had no wet handling/braking OR snow issues. The Pirelli P400s on our Camry are better, in fact I think they are the best non-performance tire going, but they are also more expensive.

As I have said many times before, there are numerous variations of the RE-92. The RE-92A on the 05 Outback (I own one now) have a high TW rating and are pretty good tires, as were the ones on my previous 02 Outback -- they had plenty of tread left at 45000miles and were great in rain and snow. For non-performance all season tires, I'd say they have been some of the best tires I have owned. No complaints at all.

Other variations of the RE-92, like the ones that came on my WRX, have a low TW rating and are not so good in the rain or snow once they wear down. These are probably the RE-92s that people are complaining about. They are OEM tires on numerous vehicles. I probably would not buy these tires.

So, be careful about making blanket statements regarding the RE-92 and the choice of tires on the Outback until you know which specific tire is involved! It's unfortunate that TireRack lumps all the RE-92 comments into one place -- it seems to mislead a lot of people.

Brian, I think the 05 Outback compares quite favorably against the Passat. Outbacks have always been great cars, and they added a nice dose of styling for the 05 model that is as good as anything from VW (or Audi for that matter).

AWD will keep you out of trouble for the most part, especially if driven sensibly in foul weather. Having owned many Subarus and being a skier, I can say that the cars will soldier through some pretty rough winter weather without a sweat.

VDC gives you an extra margin of safety and stability, and I would consider it a great feature in those scenarios where things happen fast and you could potentially get in trouble (accident avoidance, etc..). VDC will detect any sort of yaw or deviation from the intended course, and do whatever it can to keep the car going straight and maintain stability.

If you want the untimate in safety and stability, get the VDC. If you just need a car capable of handling winter weather, any model will suffice.

BTW, different models and transmission combos have different types of AWD systems. They're all good in the snow, but have differences that affect handling and gas mileage on dry roads.

I thought my point on the IIHS Camry test result was pretty obvious, but - then again - maybe not. I was wondering what to make of a test that apparently failed to detect a pretty significant model-wide (130,000 vehicles) problem/defect? I'm guessing that the tested vehicle(s) didn't show this problem. In the meantime, there are 130,000 Camry's out there with defective side air bags. If I'm missing or misinterpreting something, please enlighten me.

My overall point about the Australian NCAP test - which you seem to avoid with the reference to the 'waste of money'of the SIDE impact tests - was that Subaru outperformed everyone of those vehicles listed (and others) on the SAME front crash tests. Now, perhaps in comparison to the IIHS tests these, too, are 'an incredible waste of money'; but, the fact remains that there are direct comparisons available across vehicle lines and the Subaru outperforms every vehicle on these front crash tests. Seems significant too me....

So, again: while I AM concerned about the IIHS tests - and hope SoA makes changes on the Legacy sedans and other vehicles if necessary - (1)I would like to see what happens on the side-tests on the wagons, especially the OBs; and (2) why not show some appreciation for the comparative, top-rated performance of Subaru on FRONT crash tests? While there might be some dispute on what the NCAP side impact tets are worth, the NCAP front-crash tests suggest, to me at least, that - comparatively - there is no safer vehicle than the Subaru...in a front/front offset crash.

Point taken. Admittedly, I do not have first hand experience with these tires (look forward to testing their performance with my 05 OB XT however). My assumptions were formed from reviews such as those on tirerack.com, but I have researched/purchased other tires based on reviews from such sites and have pretty much agreed with the majority. And, I was not aware of more than 2 variations of the RE-92. How many are there? Mine are the RE-92A also, so your experience with them gives me some comfort.

I agree with Craig. If you are worried about getting around in snow deeper than a few inches than I think the OB is a much better option. I had a Passat wagon (non-4motion) which had very little ground clearance. I was always scraping the mud flaps (one of which fell off!) I have driven VWs in the snow and they do quite well, but mind you it's always major roads and highways. I would guess you get a lot of snow up there which might get you stuck in a Passat.

The Passat is about to change also, so you'd be buying an 'old model'.

I had stability control in my last 2 cars and never activated it (in a useful situation) I'm sure it's good to have but as long as you're a careful driver you'll probably never use it (if you're not careful it won't save you either). It kicked in on me once while turning into traffic- it cut power causing a dangerous situation where I caused traffic to slow down. I wasn't happy about it. Technology can have it's disadvantages.

I haven't had anyone flash their lights at me yet, although because these lights are bright and have a sharp cutoff (not unlike HIDs) if you're car is 'bouncing' up and down it may seem like you're flashing your lights to oncoming traffic. I have noticed this in other cars with projector beams (VW passats, Audis w/o HIDs) coming towards me and have been tempted to 'flash' them back too.

Would you please tell me the differences among transmission/AWD combinations of Legacy/outback? Or, if you have any link that explains this pretty well, let me know. Since we have more than enough snow here in Calgary, Canada, I am very much interested in Outback. But, fun/exciting driving is also one of major concerns.

I LOVE my new 2.5 Outback wagon! But I'm finding one problem: the small side mirrors are causing blind spots on both sides of the car. I was wondering if I'm the only one experiencing the problem. (PS: This is my fourth Outback, and I've never had this problem before.)

Our '01 Forester's headlights also have a hard cut-off of light. I don't like it one bit. On dark country roads that have many hills and dips, you can find yourself in situations without any light at all&#151;which is extremely dangerous.

In reasonably well-lit areas, this is not a problem, but on dark country roads it can be a real problem.

Although I think the policy is a little silly, as owners of this discussion group, Edmunds is free to set whatever rules they want. There is no such thing as "free speech" when you are using someone else's forum. You abide by their rules or you don't get to post. They may lose a few participants due to this but I'm sure the numbers would be too small to notice.

I agree with everything that has been written. Hopefully this will help you out. I've have owned three Legacy GT's and One WRX and I live in MPLS. And we see our fair share of snow in a given year. I have driven my friends cars with some form of VDC and they have driven my cars. When it all came down to it, VDC or VSC is nice to have but AWD (in my opinion) and common sense is the better choice..

One thing to consider is that although the Camry recall applies to 130,000 vehicles (approximately), not every one of those vehicles necessarily suffers from an issue with the side airbags. This would explain why the IIHS test did not detect the problem, as it did in the Subaru. This is the case in most recalls- not nearly all the vehicles recalled necessarily will experience the problem addressed in the recall, it is simply possible that those vehicles COULD experience the problem, and hence all are recalled.

I never addressed the Australian NCAP ratings in my post. My intention with respect to the US NCAP Side Impact test was to point out the serious deficiencies that exist and I think most would agree that neglecting to include the Head Injury Criterion information in the overall evaluation is a major oversight.

That the Legacy did well in Australian NCAP full frontal impacts is commendable, indeed. I was not debating that at all. You ask the question "why not show some appreciation for the comparative, top-rated performance of Subaru on FRONT crash tests?" Because my post was addressing the topic of areas for improvement of the Legacy/OB lines, as were several posts before mine. If you're at the top of the class in terms of frontal impacts, that does NOT represent an area for improvement. A "Marginal" rating in the IIHS side impact DOES.

For what its worth, your statement that "there is no safer vehicle than the Subaru...in a front/front offset crash" is somewhat incorrect as well, since the Honda Accord achieves a Double Five Star Rating in the US NCAP full frontal test, as well as a "Best Pick" from the IIHS. The Camry comes very close as well, and slots just a hair below the Legacy and Accord in frontal, as it did not get a Double Five from NCAP.

I have a Legacy i 2005, which I purchased three weeks ago. Amazingly, the black finish on the driver's inside door grip is *already* flaking off. There are little black specks everywhere. The silver below it is also peeling. Is this typical of Subarus? I will ask the dealer to fix it. I hope the dealer doesn't give me a hard time.

Gee, we have not heard this one yet! I only have about 750 miles on my OB XT, which is probably not enough wear and tear to experience this problem if it is widespread. So for the moment, your case appears to be an isolated issue. Let's hope so!