KR Puram meeting - pics

7 of us showed up, 6 in one batch and 1 on his own (came to know later) for this event. Met Kannan for the first time and speaking to him made it clear that he has given detailed thoughts to possible solutions for this chaos. He will soon be scanning and posting his sketches here.

We ended up spending most of our time on the Benniganahalli lake side of this chaotic place, so not enough pics from the more popular traffic chokepoint which happens to be right under the bridge.

I have been hoping to find some quality time to call out few points right on top of these pics, but for lack of time, its better to upload some random ones from the pack, and do any paints later.

Things I noted:

There is enough space for a two lane island bus stand which could be used by buses that will stay on OMR (towards Kolar), or on ORR (towards Hennur)

There is a huge bus bay right after HP Petrol Bunk, but is just not used!!

There is a pedestrian operated signal installed, but has not been working for many months now.

The island bus stand (opposite from HP Petrol bunk) is very popular. the buses on this side (near ptrol bunk) have lot more space to play with.

Saw two close shaves right when we were watching around, have even captured one on camera. This on a Saturday late morning?

Three traffic cops were parked, right near the temple, in "stand and deliver" mode, doing nothing more than paper checking from what I could see. There was one more traffic cop, directing traffic near the island bus stand. Anyway, they too moaned about pedestrian problems and said that the place needs a ped subway.

Vehicles, esp autos and cabs go in all directions under the bridge, even when one traffic cop was standing. Basically, there are self create and un-written rules that keep everyone happy - cabs/autos carrying traffic out of Railway Station, vehicles going in and out from Kagdaspura side.

Less said about pedestrian markings/pavements/signs/facilities the better. But its a two way street - peds are all over the place (their fault too), and there are no clear signs to guide them as well. One traffic cop I spoke to was very vocal about this (pedestrians on the loose!).

Some more tidbits:

That pedestrian operated signal has now been working for last few days. Perhaps just a coincidence :) But in any case, nobody respects the newly operating signal, red or green, vehicles just go and go.

One of the traffic cops told us that K R Puram police station maintains stats on accidents at this hotpost. (Kannan told us that 3 kids have died crossing the road under the bridge in last 8 months). Just getting and publicizing those stats should help.

Manjari suggested that we organize "Praja caps" so that it will be easier for us to find each other at Praja events. Great idea! She has volunteered to help organize the caps for us, eagerly looking forward to wearing them.

I think we should do more such field events, but need to organize and publicize better. Being on the street (and not merely seeing things from our bikes and cars) provides better picture of things.

Last but not the least, next steps?

Kannan has not approached any authorities yet. We should take his and our thoughts to Traffic Police. Let us approach Mr Sood, as well as BDA when we think we are ready.

Apparently, railways and BDA have agreed on a solution to get more road width for ORR under the bridge (unsure). Should check on this and track whatever they may have planned.

Comments

Good pics. Very concerning (especially given that this is the situation across the country). Personally, I would start with pedestrian facilities - not subways or skywalks. Proper pedestrian refuges and use these as grade separators to streamline traffic and kill two birds in one stone. I wonder if there is advantage or more disadvantage of running buses over the flyover. It may become more easy to use kerb side bus lanes / bus bays and go udner the flyover - I suspect this will be much easier to implement as well.

Is it possible to get some drawings (rather sketches) to understand the dynamics of this junction? It would help to understand the vicinity better. Looking at pictures, your summation that this place has enough width to streamline traffic including safe bus stops and ped Xings is not at all a exaggeration.

SB (and all who were there) first off, great pics! Can't wait to see CKannan's suggestions. KBS here's an description of the dynamics of the junction (see pic below). It's been a couple of years since I've driven through here, some things (like the huge bus bay on OMR!!) have changed, sadly little else has.

In the eastbound lanes, complications arise because of the traffic crossover pattern (yellow and white lines) .

This is worsened by the bus stop (green/red circle) right where the two streams of traffic diverge (KR Puram Bridge 010 in SB's pics). When buses back up, (KR Puram Bridge 025), it reduces the distance available for safe lane changes.

For the westbound lanes, the white and yellow lines do not cross, but this is nullified by the crossing over of the dark blue and orange lines.

Need more? Chokepoint 3 (yellow square) which I haven't described in detail is a mess of a narrow RUB (with bad roads) and an intersection with a small cross road (Nagavarapalya Main Road)

Poor planning, design, enforcement or integration (or all)...take your pick!
-----
PS: Dr. ASJ, Buses going under the flyover and those using the flyover are mutually exclusive Those using the flyover are headed towards Hoskote while those passing under veer off towards Whitefield/ORR.

1) develop the road passing through rama murthy nagar from outer ring road ( junction of banasawadi road and ring road) to reach OMR , this will help divert traffic towards OMR coming from hebbal side

2) extend this from OMR to the whitefield road ( a fly over would be required over the rail tracks) so that traffic from hebbal on ORR can directly go to whitefield bypassing the hanging bridge ..

( these should have beenthought of 9 years back, and may be difficult to implement now, at that time ramamurthy nagar was sparsely populated )

3) build a subway for pedestrian crossing with an intermediate bus shelter for passengers waiting to get on to OMR bound buses.

pink square can be managed in my opinion, do not allow vehicles to turn back after coming out of the KRPuram railway station, they can travel further for 100 meters and turn back from under the fly over

vehicles coming out from narayanpura, this traffic has increased in recent times, better will be to provide an alternate route fast ( create a new road behind the school ) and connect it to the ORR much ahead of the fly over junction ( on side nearer to marathahalli) , two problems solved - a better road for those residents, traffic congestion on orr reduced

of course all these are capital intensive projects, but looking ahead 20 years into the future, these ( and perhaps much more ) should be done ...

What a man made problem - a classic as far as allowing ribbon development is concerned. Vast expanse of development in close proximity to what is a NH4 and the developments on either side are cut off from each other. Other than the NH4, at least looking at google maps, the vast developments have poor road infrastructure within them. Too late to tackle all this.

TM (and others) - I can see why you say the buses have to go over the flyover. But just beyond the lake to left of the flyover is a bus station? How do buses get there?

What may be worth considering in grand scheme of things is to see if it is possible for buses to not take the flyover, go along OMR, turn right in to bus station and continue forward journey via kasturi nagar road. One can create an exclusive bus only right turn. In fact the buses get closer to where people work/live this way.

On the whole, the lane changes nightmare is so big, that strategic placement of signals may be needed to regulate the same. If buses have to go over flyover, perhaps it may help to pull back the bus stop well back. Once again use strategically placed signals to allow buses to switch lanes to move towards flyover (keep bus stops for buses going OMR way and ORR way via flyover distant from each other).

NB: Take all this with pinch of salt as I have no knowledge of the site

ASJ, I'm confused. When you mean flyover, do you mean Bennigannahalli flyover or the Cable stayed bridge? To clarify, my response to your initial comments were based on the Cable stayed bridge and not the Benniganahalli flyover which is what I'm guessing you were alluding to (my bad!). With regard to buses using the Benniganahalli flyover, Kasturinagar road crosses SWR's mainline at grade. To the best of my knowledge, this gate has been permanently closed after the Benniganahalli flyover was opened.

On a tangential note, I wonder if it makes sense to build a small RUB for last section of Kasturinagar Main Rd and reconnect it to the actual Kasturinagar. You could then seal off the entrance to Kasturinagar Main Rd from OMR. That's one junction less to consider. KR Puram would still connect to Kasturinagar via the Benniganahalli flyover.

Thampan, would like to see a visual of your RM Ngr junction to OMR. Doesn't this road (current ORR) exist? As for ORR traffic bypassing the bridge, the problem is not the traffic on the bridge, it's the bus stops at the base and the KJM station/Narayanapura intersection just under the Cable stayed bridge. Plus the bridge itself is a monstrosity, but I digress! Interesting thought on the new Narayanapura access road.

ASJ,
The planners at NHAI/IR and even local BDA screwed up the whole stretch, one has to see area to see the extend of land used(which is the costliest resource now a days) to make most of it unusable. Most of your suggestions based on your experiences in England is also on the same line, no offence please. This is what exactly the top level centralized planners did in most such cases, pushing the wrong medicines down the throat without understanding the ground level problems.
RMB.

RMB, English or for that matter any Western principles are not in use (so no question of being offended). Its a total screw up, no doubt, but only because local authorities have messed up a NH4 by allowing massive dense developments on either side. IRC has norms for access to highways - those must have been binned.

Essentially, a highway is free from two things - junctions and pedestrians and vehicles are not supposed to stop. Here we have a combination of people thinking its a highway, wanting to move fast, yet, buses are stopping at bus stops (no well designed highway will ever end up in such a mess). And where there are bus stops, pedestrians will be there.

Anyone who has driven enough will know that even joining fast moving traffic from stationed position, leave aside changing lanes from that position is potentially fatal - I suspect no bus driver gets in to the bus bay for this reason - they will never get out easily.

TM - yes, my orientation is different, I have so far focused on the end closer to the lake but if I find time, will try to appreciate the other end and other bits of the problem.

I give above a schematic representation of the Tin Factory area which we visited on 7th morning. We did cross the “d” road many times. The bus stand area no 1 in gray is fairly large area where the Transit zone should be in marked by suitable big over head Bill boards displayed and big shelters put in place. The shelter could be covering the whole road with raised wide foot path. Enough bus lanes can be provided with sunken tracks. There should be one middle track for through traffic. Details can be worked out only on ground measurements.

my proposal on alternate road is based on the fact that there are so many traffic flows at the cable bridge junction today

1) traffic from hebbal side of ORR going to OMR2) traffic from hebbal side of ORR going to whitefield/ITPL 3) traffic from hebbal side of ORR going to marathahalli side on ORR4) traffic from OMR CV raman nagar side continuing on OMR5) traffic from OMR CV raman nagar side to white field6) traffic from OMR CV raman nagar side to marathahalli side on ORR

The proposal is to remove the traffic mentioned in point 1 & 2 away from this junction so that at least there is some reduction in traffic at the junction.

What would happen if this is implemented completely is that the traffic from OMR CV raman nagar side can merge seemlessly with the traffic from ORR hebbal side without vehicles trying to move criss cross .. ( vehicles from ORR hebbal will only pass under the cable fly over in that case)

this reduces the chaos currently present at the junction ..

( I agree the problem is not the traffic on the bridge, but the traffic patterns have attempted to put the proposed road design at the junction in a rough text diagram ...

Thanks for posting the pics. As a person who has travelled that side many times, I can understand what it feels like to even try and cross that road at TF, not to mention the equal difficulty faced by drivers.
IMHO, a (partial) solution to clearing up the mess at TF would involve a three-pronged approach:
1. Shift the bus stops on the left side (next to lake) onto the extreme left, as has been done on the opposite side. (i.e. instead of two bus stops make it one). Also, a bus bay like the one near Bishop Cotton Boys' School should be made and strictly adhered to (two cops can be posted, one on either side).
2. Construct a foot overbridge connecting the extreme ends of the road, with lift/escalator etc., for pedestrians. Simultaneously, barricade the median with barbed wire to eliminate jaywalking.
3. Remove the speed breakers at the junction and let traffic from both sides smoothly merge without unneccessary braking and congestion.
Regards,
~~~~
Manish,
Nagarbhavi.

Manish, The biggest problem with forcing all buses to use bus stop on the the left side (near the lake) is that buses using the Cable-stayed bridge (on OMR traveling towards Hoskote) will have to cut across all ORR lanes, pick up passengers and cut right back across ORR lanes (very quickly) to get back onto the Cable-stayed bridge (refer white and yellow lines crossing near the lake here).

Just thinking aloud, (looking further east of the Cable-stayed bridge), I wonder how practical it is to have some kind of loop added after the Cable-stayed bridge (see pic below). This loop would take off from the descending ramp of an eastbound lane of the Cable-stayed flyover, loop over OMR and break into two to join (a) Whitefield Road beyond Whitefield Honda and (b) the ORR overpass over Whitefield Road. This would eliminate the traffic under Chokepoint 2 (Pink square). As far as ownership of land, from the map it appears that the land belongs to ITI, IR/SWR and/or IOC all of which are GoI. Is this what you were suggesting also thampan?

... and will remind Kannan tomorrow about posting his sketches.Rithesh, where are your pics dude. My camera conked that day, half the pics came out thoroughly overexposed.

Transmog - Thats interesting. I had similar ideas about the choke point #2 (sharp curve under the bridge). Either as you have said, or just a ramp from OMR West towards ORR east. Such a ramp will take all traffic headed towards Marathahalli straight to ORR. Today they have to take a U turn near Benniganahalli and come back under the bridge (to chokepoint #2). See my marking on your pic, in blue.

If the traffic from coming to city on OMR that turns south towards ORR/Marathahalli is significant, then this Ramp will be cheaper. Otherwise, what you suggest above (to make all ORR traffic use the bridge)

BTW, Kannan has much simpler thoughts, more signals, and managing flow of traffic from Tin Factory side halli that opens up right at choke point #2.

In addition to this fly over proposed by TM, my idea was also to divert traffic through the ramamurthy nagar main road.
so the traffic on this new flyover shown in pink will not be just from the cable stayed bridge, it will also be from ORR via the RM main road also.

SB, it would help to make it as a ramp off the Cable stayed bridge because it gives it the necessary height to cross SWR/IR's Chennai line above grade. But your idea had me thinking...what if we start the ramp couple of hundred meters before (see pic below) and then have it join the "pink flyover.

Thampan, Ramamurthy nagar Main Road is pretty messed up as you had mentioned earlier. For a brief stretch after the ORR junction it almost has 4 lanes but right after the RM Ngr police station it narrows down to two. The only place it can be widened without expensive land acquisition, is in ITI colony. But widening is a terrible double-edged sword we all fear for good reason :)

Two things, TM:
The biggest problem with forcing all buses to use bus stop on the the left side (near the lake) is that buses using the Cable-stayed bridge (on OMR traveling towards Hoskote) will have to cut across all ORR lanes, pick up passengers and cut right back across ORR lanes (very quickly) to get back onto the Cable-stayed bridge
Agreed. But isn't this what happens on the other side of the road at present? I remember the arrangement working fine till those lousy speed breakers were introduced.
Secondly, what's the pink flyover from the cable-stayed bridge to the Whitefield Road-ORR Junction going to achieve? Do you intend to close down the ORR from TF to KJM station? If not, why would anyone take this circuitous route from TF over the bridge and then back down, when they could do it by just staying at ground level?
The blue flyover joining the pink sounds good, though. Diverting Whitefield-bound traffic from the cable-stayed bridge is a good idea. But would it lead to another bottleneck at the Whitefield Road-ORR Jn.? There is also a flyover there already.
Regards,
~~~~
Manish,
Nagarbhavi.

Agreed. But isn't this what happens on the other side of the road at present? I remember the arrangement working fine till those lousy speed breakers were introduced.

Given that the curb-aligned bus stop happens to be on the other side of the bridge does not make it right or for that matter safe. Of course no one is defending the speed breakers :)

Secondly, what's the pink flyover from the cable-stayed bridge to the Whitefield Road-ORR Junction going to achieve? Do you intend to close down the ORR from TF to KJM station? If not, why would anyone take this circuitous route from TF over the bridge and then back down, when they could do it by just staying at ground level?

Actually that would exactly be the intent. Close the ORR from TF to KJM to provide vastly improved pedestrian infrastructure around KJM, auto and taxi stands and a bus lane. As RMB mentions above the extent of land wasted is enormous and it would do good to return the area to residents. And traffic would (hopefully) take the new road if we reduced width at grade while offering an alternative way past KJM free of station traffic. Finally blue and pink both descend on Whitefield Road beyond the ORR-Whitefield Road flyover. Admittedly its not the broadest stretch of road to descend on (and maybe its not viable) but it does eliminate the turnaround needed on OMR (just under Benniganahalli flyover).

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