In the navamsha, Rahu is not only in the first house but conjoins the Ascendant. Mars and Saturn mutually aspect one another across the chart, navamsha Saturn being in the natal 5th house, while navamsha Mars is in the navamsha 5th.
Brady has no children of his own, as Mars aspecting the natal 5th and Jupiter, karka of children, being neecha would indicate. But he had an unhealthy interest in children.
Would I be right in interpreting the navamsha positions of Mars and Saturn as relating to this unhealthy interest in children, or it is not permissible to use the 5th in this way?

For those who allow such considerations, Saturn is within 1 degree of Pluto in the navamsha - while Saturn and Mars are about 3 degrees from opposition, with Mars some 4 degrees from the opposition of Pluto.

You have clarified the thinking on the 5th house and children. It is absolutely right that the 5th concerns creativity. Thank you for bringing me back into focus on that point.

I will look to other factors in the chart to explain Brady's attitude, which, as you say, centers on weakness and vulnerability rather than the childhood state per se. As least one victim was a young adult, as I recall. Above the age of consent, I mean, legally and physiologically an adult - the 17 year old mentioned on wikipedia.

I had noted the Moon's occupation of new moon tithi, Saturn's 12th house position (thank you for the Behari quote) and Saturn and Ketu hemming in the ascendant.

Brady, who has now spent the major portion of his life in prison, has, by default, led the life of a renunciate.

I will now check the karakamsha lagna chart, again pointed in that direction by you. I see Rahu is in the 12th from the Moon. Mars is in the 4th from Moon and Saturn in the 10th from Moon, Mars and Saturn mutually in aspect - and both, along with the Moon, aspecting the 7th from Moon.

I find the chart fascinating - not because I'm fascinated by Brady, but because the chart contains fascinating features. However, I recognize that you are not drawn to such personalities as Brady, and shall detain you no longer on the subject.

I have been looking at Gore Vidal's chart. Gore Vidal, Oct 3, 1925, 10 a.m., West Point, New York, USA.

Vidal lived in Italy for many years (and for all I know still does). I can see this indicated clearly in the birth chart. Rahu is in the 9th, aspected by Saturn. Both are classed as planets causing separation in respect of the houses or karakas they have contact with. Additionally, Saturn and Venus are in the 12th house. Venus is the one planet that doesn't jib at being in the 12th and here it is in its own sign, Libra, with exalted Saturn, in mutual aspect with Moon, lord of the 9th. By all accounts Vidal has been happy living in Italy, probably the result of Venus being in its own sign and Saturn's exalted state.

In navamsha, Ketu, Mars and Saturn, three malefics, occupy the 9th. This may suggest residence abroad but, as there are malefics involved, the circumstances may be unpleasant or irksome, and I see no sign of that in reading Vidal's autobiographical books or the biography. Venus is again in the 12th house, this time under the aspect of Mars. But I detect no sign of foreign residence from the placement of the lord of the 12th, Mercury.

As I have said, I am no expert with the navamsha chart and so it is possible I am reading the chart in the wrong way.

for Vidal's chart we will need to establish the birth data first and then the ayanamsha, and decide which ayanamsha is better.

I would be very happy to look at the navamsha charts produced by both ayanamshas - the Fagan/Bradley ayanamsha and the Lahiri ayanamsha - with the aim of establishing which best fits the facts of Gore Vidal's life.

(As an aside, I have Vidal's Nodes in navamsha at 16 Vi/Pi 18'. Perhaps the difference between True Node and Mean Node positions in rashi.)

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have you already become confident of the F/B ayanamsha?

I have used the Fagan/Bradley ayanamsha for many years to my personal satisfaction. (My birth chart is different in F/B to what it is in Lahiri, and I prefer the description of me given by the former configurations. But that is a personal preference - a preference too personal, too close to home to be accepted as the most reliable witness.) I do not have a closed mind on the subject; if the evidence tends in the direction of Lahiri, I shall take notice of it.

On another topic: I am not sure what we can do about the time of birth. The time we have is, according to the sources I've consulted, taken from the birth certificate. Despite my doubts that Vidal was born dead on 10 a.m., he must have been born then or thereabouts for that time to get on to the birth certificate. As we work on the chart we may become aware that a nudge of 41" in one direction or 58" in the other would fit the subject's nature and the events of his life better. But to dicker with the time now could prevent us from getting to an interpretation of the navamsha (my primary objective) indefinitely.

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In response to your unsureness of reading a navamsha chart: don't feel unconfident! I feel relatively confident to assure you that the basic meanings of planets, houses, etc., remain the same as the rashi. Some people said it is another perspective of the rashi; some people said it is an inner look; some people said it is the dharma chart. As I understand it we only shift the meanings slightly.

One reason for my diffidence is that there is another way of viewing the navamsha. In this method, the navamsha positions are read off the rashi chart. Thus, the positions of Vidal's Mars, Saturn and Ketu in Pisces are transposed to the rashi, where the three malefics would afflict the 5th house. This fits the facts in one respect since Vidal has no children.

I had been using the method you outline in the few attempts I had made at examining the navamsha. Then I came across the alternative method. Now, like Buridan's ass, I stand confused between the two. As with the ayanamshas, I'm willing to try both.

Then again, as you appear to have no experience with the second method, I'm willing to use the former in our investigations here and reserve my experiments with the latter to a solo project.

Although I'm rusty at working out the prenatal epoch (Bailey's method), I've had a shot at Gore Vidal's chart and come up with a rectified birth time of 10:02:35.

The resultant chart doesn't match to the second with the natal chart details but I've had to presume that conception took place at West Point, where the birth occurred. However, as the prenatal date is Dec. 23, the parents could have been elsewhere for the holidays, visiting the father's family or the mother's for instance.

Data of Prenatal Epoch
23 December 1924
12:53:33
[West Point]
position of Moon at birth exchanges with that of Ascendant in epoch chart
position of Ascendant at birth exchanges with that of Moon in epoch chart

The rectified birth chart alters little from the birth chart set for the recorded birth time. The ascendant moves forward a little but remains in Scorpio. Apart from that all remains as it was.

The only change in the navamsha chart is that the navamsha ascendant is now in early Leo whereas it was in late Cancer - using the Fagan/Bradley ayanamsha.

Work on Vidal's chart confirms my experience of working with timed births, namely that even a timed birth can be as much as three minutes out when compared to Bailey's prenatal epoch. Much depends on the timepiece used being accurate not to mention the human propensity to round up (or down) from minutes and seconds to minutes only, etc.

The reason I mentioned the differences is not to state which ayanamsha is correct, but only because we cannot have a conversation without using the same data. It would be like you using the tropical and I using the sidereal and then trying to discuss the same chart. I only use the lahiri ayanamsha as a default, until I do more research.

In which case I appreciate your openness to the idea that we examine Gore Vidal’s rashi & navamsha charts according to both ayanamshas.

You have given the planetary positions for the karakamsha lagna charts for both ayanamshas. I am untutored in working with the karakamsha lagna – though I am familiar with the techniques of Chandra and Surya lagnas. I assume that there is a shared similarity between all these methods. Will experiment with both karakamsha lagna charts to get the feel of the technique and report back.

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Maybe don't be like Buridan's ass? Rather than think of the navamsha as an 'either or' proposition, maybe it can be thought of in more than one way and used in more than one way?

My static mental position was due to the fact that I had read that the transposition method was a traditional Parasara technique and the only valid one for use with the navamsha for those following the teachings of BPHS, while the ‘read the navamsha by the same rules one reads a natal chart’ was a modern and bogus technique – whatever ‘traditional’ and ‘modern’ mean in such a context. I am very willing to apply both – and who knows both may yield valuable results. That, as you say, is your experience; it may well turn out to be mine.

Quote:

When you mentioned transposing those malefics from Vidal's navamsha to the rashi to explain the lack of progeny, this may be true. . . . However, we do not need to transpose navamsha planets to explain childlessness.

I didn’t mean this as an explanation for childlessness: I meant it only as an example of the transposition method – an example that appeared to give an accurate result.

Quote:

Thank you for informing of the prenatal epoch. I did find a link explaining this, which I am assuming is the same as Bailey's method.

Yes, the link covers Bailey’s method, or a variation of the Tritune of Hermes very close to Bailey’s method. Rectification of Vidal’s chart took less time than anticipated because, of the several permutations possible, his pre-natal epoch was of the simplest order: the position of the Moon at birth is coincident with the ascending degree at the time of conception; and the position of the ascending degree at birth is coincident with the Moon’s position at the time of conception. I started by looking at the simplest possibility and scored a hit right away.

There’s more to be said but I must put my keyboard to rest for today and attend to other things.

I've been away from Skyscript for a while, and am trying to catch up. I've used the navamsa extensively for many years, and will see if I can add anything helpful to this discussion after I calculate the birth charts.

I knew you were using slightly different birth data and/or ayanamsha on the last chart, but based on what you wrote, the details in the navamsha were not different enough to matter and to bring up. However, for Vidal's chart we will need to establish the birth data first and then the ayanamsha, and decide which ayanamsha is better.

Thank you, Varuna. Yes, since there are different house systems and different ayanamsas, these discussions need a preface telling us the house system and ayanamsa that are being used. The navamsa chart is always a good check for the ayanamsa. I have set up Brady's and Vidal's charts with the KP and F-B ayanamsas, and am noting the differences which I will post soon.

I calculated Gore Videl's and Ian Brady's charts with the Krishnamurti and Fagan-Bradley ayanamsas. I used the 10:00 a.m. birth time since that is recorded. Of course the rectified time could be more correct, but I'm not testing that time now. I use B.V. Raman's favored house system which places the equal cusps at the center of houses. When using the navamsa chart, I look for two types of configurations:

(1) Planets in signs and houses in the navamsa chart.
(2) Close degree overlaps between the natal and navamsa chart.

These degree overlaps can work both ways. A few years ago there was a blind test on an astrological forum. There were several sets of paired charts: Criminals and people who benefited their fellow beings through service or philanthrophy. Both tropical and sidereal astrologers tried the test. No one was successful in saying which charts belonged to the criminals. After the test was finished I analyzed the charts, and this is where I learned the value of close degree overlaps between the natal and navamsa charts.

So let's take Gore Videl's chart. He was a noted playwright, novelist and critic. He was also a homosexual and perhaps bi-sexual as well. At a time when homosexuality was a scandal, he was outspoken on the subject and included Gay themes in his books. Quotes:

"Most of Vidal's works have more or less prominent gay characters, and he is important for the consistency with which he has continually expanded gay visibility in mainstream fiction and, to some extent, drama..."

"Myra Breckinridge: Regarded as scandalous and even dangerous when first published, the sexual content is fairly tame by the standard of what is discussed regularly on television nowadays."

So where can we look in the chart for Videl's striaghtforward, outspoken and courageous persona? (He also served in the army.) Of course we have the natal Mars-Mercury-Sun conjunction in Virgo, a sign of literary expression. The navamsa chart is also helpful. In the KP navamsa Mars is at 3Ar40. Natal Moon is at 5Ar 23. This is effectively a Mars-Moon conjunction. In the F-B navamsa chart Mars remains in Pisces at 24Pi51. There is no Mars contact to the natal Moon.

There is another important change between the K and F-B navamsa charts. In the K navamsa Mercury is with the Moon in Taurus. Sidereal Taurus is one of the literary signs, perhaps the most important one as it's ruled by Venus. This conjunction falls in the navamsa 10th house. (The navamsa chart is always sign-as-house.)

I've done some research on writers, and a Moon-Mercury contact is a must. For those who use classical western astrology, the Moon is in its own trigon in Taurus, and Mercury is lord of Virgo in that trigon. Thus, that particular Moon-Mercury conjunction is very potent, as it should be for a person of Videl's literary status.

The K navamsa Mercury also falls close to natal cusp 7 which is significant in a homosexual birth chart. (The natal Saturn-Venus conjunction in Libra is also significant since Venus is the 7th house lord.)

In the F-B navamsa chart, the Moon-Mercury conjunction is lost. Mercury remains in Aries, and only the Moon is in Taurus. The navamsa feminine Moon falls close to the natal 7th cusp. I've seen this contact often in the charts of Lesbians, but not in the charts of Gay men.

There's also the example of the Sun in the same navamsa degree as the equal 8th cusp: 4 degrees of Gemini. One meaning of the 8th house is said to be fame after death, but the 8th is also the house of sexuality, and Videl certainly emphasized that topic in his life.

In the K navamsa the Sun is in Gemini, a masculine sign. In the F-B navamsa the Sun is in feminine Taurus, and has no important planetary or cuspal conjunctions to the natal chart.

It so happens that in the F-B navamsa, Venus is in the degree of the 8th cusp, so research wise, this would be a toss-up. However, the Sun is the 10th lord, and Videl's public works certainly emphasized sex, most especially homosexual sex and a gender change.

Another change is natal Uranus. In the K chart Uranus has moved to Pisces, the 5th house sign. In the F-B chart Uranus remains in Aquarius.

There are other examples between the charts which can be studied. I've tried to give some examples of how I've used the navamsa chart over the years. I'll note the navamsa changes in Brady's chart in another post, as it's difficult to read forum posts that are too long.

Traditionally in India, navamsa degrees are not used, but I've found them critical to note differences between different ayanamsas. The natal-navamsa overlaps must be fairly close by degree to be significant.

It is common in western astrology to associate the 8th house with sex. But I haven't seen the association made in Vedic astrology. Vide my personal list of Vedic associations for the 8th house culled from here, there and everywhere over the years.

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