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Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Originally Posted by robihurstferenc

You brought up some good points, but i believe that Tobirama DID make a mistake when he marginalized the Uchiha to the edge of the village. They were one of the two founding clans of the Village, just the fact that the Senju were leading the Village without the Uchiha was enough to breed a lot of anger. They thought themselves entitled to have partial ruling of the village, and i cannot blame them for that. It only makes matters worse that the Uchihas inspirational leader: Madara, was given a bad name and cast out of the Village. All these factors brought the tensions to a boiling point, and when Tobirama moved them to a place where the proud co-founders of the Village had to take care of petty criminals, one cannot blame them for despising the Senju. My point is that I believe that Tobirama made the wrong decisions, but had the right intentions at mind. Now, I am no politician, but from experience with studying similar situations to this in real life, I would do one of two things. Either implement a two-party system, in which both the Senju AND the Uchiha are represented in the governing body of the Village equally through a parliament (or coalition) , or implement a pure democracy, where the people of the Village vote on who is to become the next Hokage (out of ALL the ninja in the village not just a Senju or an Uchiha). I understand that both parties cannot be completely content, but if I were Tobirama, I would make those sacrifices, and take away some of my own power for the greater good and peace of my village. Just my take on it

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Well being handed over the entire justice system of a country equals to having no political power...... also tell me which any other clan had any say on how the nation ran unless they were elected as the Hokage . . . . . Still show me how the Uchiha were inhumanly discriminated compared the any other clans: They were denied food and water- no, They ere not allowed to do anything any other clan cld do- no...... its was a little trust issue probably would have smoothed over in time but had to blown out of proportion by Madara..... and none blame him but rather blame a person who had good intentions but bad methods......

Political Power equates running a normal governmental job to you? Are you kidding me? It means having an actual share in the government affairs, like being a part of the council, being able to be appointed as a Hokage or a contender for it. Do you remember ever seeing a single Uchiha having any seat in the council?

Political segregation is a huge factor for a clan that founded the village as well. I have no idea why you keep slighting this as if it means nothing. Madara did what was necessary to protect his clan. I love it how you are unnerved to extend the courtesy of segregation to Tobirama, but can't do so for Madara who also only wanted to protect his clan for impending and sure-shot segregation. Love it.

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Originally Posted by robihurstferenc

You brought up some good points, but i believe that Tobirama DID make a mistake when he marginalized the Uchiha to the edge of the village. They were one of the two founding clans of the Village, just the fact that the Senju were leading the Village without the Uchiha was enough to breed a lot of anger. They thought themselves entitled to have partial ruling of the village, and i cannot blame them for that. It only makes matters worse that the Uchihas inspirational leader: Madara, was given a bad name and cast out of the Village. All these factors brought the tensions to a boiling point, and when Tobirama moved them to a place where the proud co-founders of the Village had to take care of petty criminals, one cannot blame them for despising the Senju. My point is that I believe that Tobirama made the wrong decisions, but had the right intentions at mind. Now, I am no politician, but from experience with studying similar situations to this in real life, I would do one of two things. Either implement a two-party system, in which both the Senju AND the Uchiha are represented in the governing body of the Village equally through a parliament (or coalition) , or implement a pure democracy, where the people of the Village vote on who is to become the next Hokage (out of ALL the ninja in the village not just a Senju or an Uchiha). I understand that both parties cannot be completely content, but if I were Tobirama, I would make those sacrifices, and take away some of my own power for the greater good and peace of my village. Just my take on it

I agree with you but there were additional factors that led to the alienation. All in all Tobirama's intentions were good at heart. But the actions he took led to the unrest and eventually the talk of a coupe against the village. He was treating the symptoms but not the main disease. The Uchias wanted to be treated equal like any other clan, possibly even a little better because they helped found the nation and it was not like other clans didn't/still doing do brutal things.
1 clan takes an infant and knowingly infects them with a parasite that can kill them so that they can grow up to be good soldiers. Another keeps a girl locked up, away from the rest of society, because she could go insane any minute (filler but still relevant). Another constantly feeds to use it's techs (not good for kids physical health). But then it takes it one step further by giving children deadly pills so they can forcefully utilize there special tech. Then another clan brands their members with a curse mark on its branch member's to keep them subservient if they speak up they just kill them off instantly.
But no, he just focused on the Uchiha's Sharengun "condition" because it could develop in the MS and because of the years of battling. I mean yes the clan did do research to achieve the MS by loosing allies in battle and sacrificing other clansman's eyes. But we don't know what the full extent of the research consisted of. Maybe it was to activate it w/o sacrifice. Who knows.
So he
1. alienated them by treating them like children
2. did not allow them to hold government positions
3. made a "reservation" for them to live on.
4. knowingly had engaged in a type of eugenics by segmenting off the pop. so they would be less likely to "breed" into any other clan and therefore "infect" the other clans. Otherwise you would get weird powerful breeds like clansmen who could use Ignazi.

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Originally Posted by DrProof

Inaccuracy

Constant threads about Tobirama's reasoning for him doing what had to be done to the Uchiha, has brought hate to his characters, along with the war-loved technique Edo Tensei. Being as the Uchiha had immense infatuation to their loved ones, losing such would cause them great despair causing them to awaken the Sharingan, but not just a regular Sharingan, the Mangekyou Sharingan. This provided a problem, wild Uchiha with Mangekyou Sharingans something had to be done, and Tobirama had done it (no matter how brutal, or evil it intended to sound it was all for the village).

Tobirama gave them a fitting position in order to use their "confused infatuation problems" (going wild with power; Mangekyou Sharingan) as to why the Police Department was created (solely for the Uchiha). Why is this wrong? Why is this unnecessary hate appointed to Tobirama? He was thinking with his head, and his heart he wanted to protect his village from harm which he did successfully in his Era. So what exactly was wrong with the following actions?

Creating the Konoha Police Department for the Uchiha Clan.

Using their power for good (to keep the prisoners isolated, and away from villagers).

Trying to silence "Madara's Will" from the Uchiha's.

Protecting the Hidden Leaf Village from the Uchiha's "wild infatuation problems".

To keep themselves out of harms way, so that the Uchiha's themselves don't recklessly suicide.

Seemingly that is only half of the problem for the ongoing hate Tobirama is constantly getting due to today's current chapter. "Edo Tensei is the cause of this war", "Edo Tensei should have never been created", "Tobirama is truly evil for creating Edo Tensei" these are all statements I've come to hear, but do you all conclude the possibilities as to why Tobirama created such a technique? As to why it would bring back a numerous of dead shinobi? To aid the Leaf Village.

In wars such as this Tobirama created the Edo Tensei (most-probable) to aid the Leaf Village in wars, or to deal with the Uchiha Clan's instability, undying shinobi who could only be defeated due to sealing jutsu. Edo Tensei was truly presumed evil due to Orochimaru performing it, leading to Kabuto using it in the current war arc we are presented now, Orochimaru was truly the one to corrupt the concept of the jutsu, with Madara doing it some justice admitting that the creation of the jutsu could enable an army to wipe out a map. Orochimaru was right, Hashirama probably had stated the same Edo Tensei shouldn't have been created, however it had good intentions, but was abused with the wrong users.

Conclusion

Tobirama settles the Uchiha's "wild infatuation problem" so no harm comes to the village (the main objective)

Power is given to the Uchiha Clan to put to use their Mangekyou Sharingan's incredible power (protecting the village, and chances of getting themselves killed)

Edo Tensei created to stop wars, and instability of the Uchiha Clan, but later used for corrupted purposes (attacking the Leaf Village, and support the war)

Look at the situation from Tobirama's point of view, what would you have done? (You can't please everyone)

Addition by KGB Kakuzu:

Addition by Derp Obito:

Was not the Uchiha clan part of the leaf?
Were not the Uchihas and their well- being a responsibility of the hokages?
Yes It was. They were as much a part of the leaf as any other leaf clan or senju clan were. But tobirama only saw the interest of senju clan and other clans. He was scared of the uchihas power and hence did not want to give them power. He did not trusted them.
Whereas the Uchiha clan separated from madara to achieve stability and peace and trusted in Senju hashirama. But still tobirama sidelined them. Thats what grew ill feeling between them. Which lead to everything.
Also when Kyubi attacked the uchihas were doubted when they had no clue about how that happened. Then also it was the others who didn't trust uchihas. And the uchihas were the ones who suffered.

It was actually Tobirama who started all. Who didn't trust the uchiha.
The uchihas just wanted peace. And when they realised nobody trusted them and hence sidelined them only then they decided to attack the village.
It was others who triggered everything the Uchiha clan just wanted the lost pride.

So tobirama's fear led everything. He never considered the Uchiha as a part of the village.

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Originally Posted by drknght

Hashirama settled the conflict between Uchiha and Senju clans. Uchihas gave up the position of the ruler, and that wasn't enough, they started to be treated as a felonies. Tobirama basically brought the whole conflict back. It was highly prejudice to put Uchihas to ghetto. They didn't do anything wrong. They were planning rebellion, but that doesn't justify Tobirama. You don't punish a crimminal before he commits a crime. Hashirama was/is a man, Tobirama is a piece of ****.

I agree!!. Tobirama just messed up everything. If 1st was stll around, no discrimination would haven taken place. Hence, the uchiha wouldn't feel oppressed and itachi wouldn't have to sacrifice. Senju and Uchiha would've live in peace ever since. I wish that is the case, but no Tobirama had to be a discriminatory ***** and messed it up.

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Originally Posted by drknght

Well, now you have a big ass war about it. How is that for a great future? There wouldn't be any plans of rebellion, if Tobirama would have been more respectful, and didn't treat Uchihas like a dogs. What was the purpose of slaughtering the innocent people? They didn't do anything wrong. We don't know if they would comprise their own home. Words are just words, only actions matter. I oppose prevention. It's basically treating a person like a complete moron, to tell what will a person do beforehand. Let people do as they please, but when they commit the crime, THEN you punish them, not before.

AGREED!!! Punishing someone before they even do anything is just inappropriate assumption and is unfair. Punsishing any uchiha just cuz you "fear" them and think they're gona go rampage and blow everything up is like saying "Oh I'm gona punish these muslims cuz who knows they can be a terrorist and are gona blow up and destroy the city at any moment" Sorry for my blunt example, I don't mean to insult anyone here who's muslim or anything. I just want to show that the discrimination agaisnt the uchiha is very much like how many americans discriminate against muslim ppl. So my point is, Tobirima was and is still very discriminant towards uchiha and he ruined the peace that his brother worked so hard to form between the 2 clans.

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Originally Posted by The Great Narumaki

Was not the Uchiha clan part of the leaf?
Were not the Uchihas and their well- being a responsibility of the hokages?
Yes It was. They were as much a part of the leaf as any other leaf clan or senju clan were. But tobirama only saw the interest of senju clan and other clans. He was scared of the uchihas power and hence did not want to give them power. He did not trusted them.
Whereas the Uchiha clan separated from madara to achieve stability and peace and trusted in Senju hashirama. But still tobirama sidelined them. Thats what grew ill feeling between them. Which lead to everything.
Also when Kyubi attacked the uchihas were doubted when they had no clue about how that happened. Then also it was the others who didn't trust uchihas. And the uchihas were the ones who suffered.

It was actually Tobirama who started all. Who didn't trust the uchiha.
The uchihas just wanted peace. And when they realised nobody trusted them and hence sidelined them only then they decided to attack the village.
It was others who triggered everything the Uchiha clan just wanted the lost pride.

So tobirama's fear led everything. He never considered the Uchiha as a part of the village.

I completely agree with u. Thank you for realizing this. Poor Uchiha has to undergo all the discrimination, blames, persecution, and eventually extermination. All because of Tobirama.

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

Originally Posted by robihurstferenc

you brought up some good points, but i believe that tobirama did make a mistake when he marginalized the uchiha to the edge of the village. They were one of the two founding clans of the village, just the fact that the senju were leading the village without the uchiha was enough to breed a lot of anger. They thought themselves entitled to have partial ruling of the village, and i cannot blame them for that. It only makes matters worse that the uchihas inspirational leader: Madara, was given a bad name and cast out of the village. All these factors brought the tensions to a boiling point, and when tobirama moved them to a place where the proud co-founders of the village had to take care of petty criminals, one cannot blame them for despising the senju. My point is that i believe that tobirama made the wrong decisions, but had the right intentions at mind. Now, i am no politician, but from experience with studying similar situations to this in real life, i would do one of two things. Either implement a two-party system, in which both the senju and the uchiha are represented in the governing body of the village equally through a parliament (or coalition) , or implement a pure democracy, where the people of the village vote on who is to become the next hokage (out of all the ninja in the village not just a senju or an uchiha). I understand that both parties cannot be completely content, but if i were tobirama, i would make those sacrifices, and take away some of my own power for the greater good and peace of my village. Just my take on it

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

The Doctor is in
so lets begin
he's cutting through the fiction
with a scalpel of logic and truth
cuz he's got the prescription.
Busting through with the energy of youth.
Painting with words
like an artist on his easel
you can't weasel
out from his conclusions,
leading you out of confusions
The gears are turning,
I'm opening my mind
and raising the roof,
mad props you to sir,
Doctor Proof

Re: (DrProof) Tobirama's Resolve

you do have a point. I agree with you when it comes to the fact that he created edo tensei to help people. lets not forget that anything can become a weapon if used by an evil user. however, I disagree with his actions against the uchiha. it was strategically wrong for many reasons.

1. Police men tend to be disliked and sometimes hated by the rest of the world, so if your working condition are not acceptable by a big part of the society its natural to be unhappy

2. Being member of the police force means that you basically do two things: a. you maintain the order b. you hunt down rogue ninja
hunting down s-rank criminals surely increases the possibility of dying during a mission and death is the main reason for uchiha's anger.

3. having access to the police force and anbu secret archives could actually be one of the ways that people learned about Madara