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Topic: Payment for sacraments? (Read 25909 times)

Well, we are not in one of the "old countries", and if things are so wonderful there, people would not have left. And yes, converts tend to be more questioning. When you find out that you have been lied to for 20 or 30 years (or longer), you tend to test things a bit before you drink the Kool-aid (I can explain that phrase to you if they don't use it in the "old country"). One can be humble and at the same time avoid being just another one of sheeple.

So those of us who think that simony has no place in the church are now Gnostics?

I don't know why you're following advice from non-Russians (including myself) in this thread because either they are trying to confuse you or you're trying to "stir the pot."

I concur with Father Ambrose - seek consultation from Church officials in St. Petersburg, RUSSIA not an Internet Forum.

Honestly, I don't feel they are confusing me. I think I've gotten some fairly good answers to this, including the last one from katherineofdixie, and I felt weird about being the American guy who's being catechized here just going up to a Russian priest/official and asking about whether a certain practice at their parish is corrupt or not. I don't take the thoughts of anyone on here to be infallible at all, but the forum can be helpful. I suppose I'm just more interested in discussing faith, liturgy, etc. with my priest here, and would feel awkward attempting to articulate exactly how I felt about this issue to him.

As for the quote of mine above, I've gathered that the poster who called my/our attitude "cathar-like" just has his own approach, and may be trying to get a rise out of people with whom he does not agree.

Third, I don't want to be misinterpreted, again. I absolutely believe that parishioners have a duty to support their church, and that it is more than correct to give such honorariums to priests at many occasions, donate generously to their parish and especially to pay for things like candles, as the church has obviously paid for them. My concern is that folks who are unable to pay for sacraments, the things which above all else bring us to God, or who would be awfully compromised by it (a position I am thankful to not be in), would be left out. Such people can choose to never eat out, and as such not be subject to tipping, but should they then choose to not attend church and partake in the sacraments, as well? This is why I find the issue slippery, especially in a country like Russia, where the state is very generous to the church.

Again, I think your concerns again are 100% legitimate. Personally, what I would do is talk to my priest, and tell him that this payment thing is kind of confusing/inconvenient, and I would ask him if I could instead make a "pledge" which will indicate what I plan on donating to the church over the course of the year so that he can better anticipate his budget and make it simpler on myself as well. Perhaps this may 'spark' an idea, and maybe over time he may encourage other parishoners to do the same. I find it difficult to see how he could object to such a notion.

Parishes do not operate like this in the Orthodox home-countries. Is there a Calvinist beneath every American? I hope not. What about just going with the flow? Doesn't that sound more humble, especially for a catechumen?

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

A good question was raised at a clergy retreat I attended today: If the Lord were to pluck your parish off the Earth now, would the community miss it? Would the poor, widows, homeless, orphans, unchurched, etc. miss it?

I have a feeling that if, objectively, the answer to the question is "yes," then your parish likely has no need to have minimum dues, or sacrament fees.

Amen!

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

The priest is called "Batyushka" - FatherHis wife is called "Matushka" - Mother

However, the word "Mother" might get confused with title given to a nun.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I'm also Romanian, grew up in Romania. Augustin is actually not that far off from Orthodox Romanian reality, at all, actually. As cynical as it might sound...

Would you promote the Orthodox Romanian reality as the standard which all Orthodox should imitate? Would you agree with him that Orthodox who object to simony are closet Calvinists?

Well, I object to paying for blessings and prayers and the like too. Only that I can't do anything myself about it, so I'll go with the flow. What I am saying is that what Augustin is depicting is indeed a very real face of Orthodoxy. People shouldn't imitate it, no. But they should be aware that it exists and that it is considered a valid way of doing things is some parte of the world. No, Orthdoxy is not spotless.

I'm also Romanian, grew up in Romania. Augustin is actually not that far off from Orthodox Romanian reality, at all, actually. As cynical as it might sound...

Would you promote the Orthodox Romanian reality as the standard which all Orthodox should imitate? Would you agree with him that Orthodox who object to simony are closet Calvinists?

That isn't really simony. But perhaps you know something I do not know. And america is quite Calvinist, culturally. And it ain't me who said that.

And I don't think anyone has disagreed with that assessment, including myself. What we have disagreed with is your assumption that any of us who take issue with the practices we've been discussing do so as a result of some toxic American Calvinism.

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

They actually have a price list if you are looking to have them pray for you and your loved ones.

Donation (minimum) direct from the calculation:-Reading of the Psalter for 1 year (1 name) - 800 rubles. [That's about $28 U.S.]-Proskomedia for 1 year (1 name) - 800 rubles.-Proskomedia for a period of 40 days (Prayers for the Dead, 1 name) - 200 rubles.-Eternal remembrance does not occur.

So there you have it.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

They actually have a price list if you are looking to have them pray for you and your loved ones.

Donation (minimum) direct from the calculation:-Reading of the Psalter for 1 year (1 name) - 800 rubles. [That's about $28 U.S.]-Proskomedia for 1 year (1 name) - 800 rubles.-Proskomedia for a period of 40 days (Prayers for the Dead, 1 name) - 200 rubles.-Eternal remembrance does not occur.

So there you have it.

That is incredibly cheap!

Proskomedia commemoration for 1 year works out at

54 cents per Sunday (if the commemoration in only at Sunday Liturgy)

or 0.077 cents per day (if the commemoration is at daily Liturgy.)

Recommendation: People might consider sending the names of their dead to Valaam for commemoration at the Proskomedia.

They actually have a price list if you are looking to have them pray for you and your loved ones.

Donation (minimum) direct from the calculation:-Reading of the Psalter for 1 year (1 name) - 800 rubles. [That's about $28 U.S.]-Proskomedia for 1 year (1 name) - 800 rubles.-Proskomedia for a period of 40 days (Prayers for the Dead, 1 name) - 200 rubles.-Eternal remembrance does not occur.

I'm also Romanian, grew up in Romania. Augustin is actually not that far off from Orthodox Romanian reality, at all, actually. As cynical as it might sound...

I'm late to this thread, but I'll throw my support for Augustin in as well. He represents the actual practice of Romanian Orthodoxy (and Balkan Orthodoxy in general) quite well. Furthermore, I share his reservations about the books of Frederica Matthewes-Green, though I'd say that it's not her or her books that are bad, but the tendency for other Orthodox to recommend them universally when they really only work on a certain demographic of middle or upper-class, female, middle-aged Americans.

And I don't think that he is representing Romanian Orthodoxy as the ideal that Americans must emulate, but rather challenging the talk of people around here who think that the way things are in the US is something that all Orthodox worldwide must emulate.

I'm also Romanian, grew up in Romania. Augustin is actually not that far off from Orthodox Romanian reality, at all, actually. As cynical as it might sound...

I'm late to this thread, but I'll throw my support for Augustin in as well. He represents the actual practice of Romanian Orthodoxy (and Balkan Orthodoxy in general) quite well. Furthermore, I share his reservations about the books of Frederica Matthewes-Green, though I'd say that it's not her or her books that are bad, but the tendency for other Orthodox to recommend them universally when they really only work on a certain demographic of middle or upper-class, female, middle-aged Americans.

And I don't think that he is representing Romanian Orthodoxy as the ideal that Americans must emulate, but rather challenging the talk of people around here who think that the way things are in the US is something that all Orthodox worldwide must emulate.

There is plenty of corruption in US Orthodoxy too. Augustin's argument is that we should be okay with it, right here where we are.

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Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!