My psychologist told me that we could NOT be sexual in frontof our kids...i.e.; pat on the butt, rub of the thigh, anything that may be thought of as "SEXUAL" is off limits infront of the kids...as these things/actions are considered bythe LAW and psychologists/counselors and so on as "sexualabuse" of the children...so this leaves only a light kiss, a hug or holding hands....I'm pissed off....

Where the fuck are our kids supposed to learn how to properlyshow affection in public or our home? What is consideredacceptable?

The fucking internet? Porn? Their fucked up friends? Television?Movies? Radio? Advertising? Aren't these media outlets sexually abusing our children w/ their very sexual content?Isn't it even more so than what we show to our children?

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Victims and survivors of sexual abuse are naturally going to have their boundaries skewed a little when it comes to what is appropriate in front of their kids or in public. While I don't have kids of my own, I've talked to my sister, who does have kids, a great deal about this. We both believe that the best policy is to be as careful as possible when it comes to any type of sexual contact, especially in front of kids. Why? Because sex has been used as a way to gain power over us, and we need to make sure we never do that to someone else even if it is "accidental" (if there is such a thing).

A case in point...I consider a pat on the butt or a rub of the thigh to be quite inappropriate behavior in public.

However, I also find it important to make sure that your kids see you and your wife showing each other affection. That would invovled kissing, hugging, and holding hands. Maybe even a little cuddling, like putting your arm around her while watching a movie, would be appropriate. But when you consider how appropriate a behavior you display around your kids is, I think the best question would be to ask whether or not you would do that behavior to your kids.

Bryan

_________________________Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs nowIs some new words of wisdomLike la la la la la la la la la.-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Now it seems ANY/ALL DISPALYS OF AFFECTION ARE CONSIDEREDTO BE SEXUAL.....Now I'm supposed to just walk around lifenot showing ANY affection towards others or my family...

A HUG is considered SEXUAL...TWO BODIES ARE TOUCHING SOCLOSE YOU CAN FEEL THE OTHER PERSONS BODY...BIOLOGICALLYWE ARE SEXUALLY STIMULATED BY TOUCH...IT IS SCIENTIFICFACT THAT WE ARE SEXUAL BEINGS...NOW I'M BEING TOLD ICANNOT BE SEXUAL IN FRONT OF OUR KIDS? UGH....

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

There is a fine line here. I don't see anything wrong with walking up to your woman, holding her hips, and giving her a quick smooch on the neck, and I don't see anything wrong with a quick butt-pat every once in a while either. However, remember that the reaction of your woman is just as important as your action. If she shrieks and jumps when you pat her on the butt, perhaps you'd better refrain from doing it in front of your kids.

If you are rubbing your woman's hips, or if your pat turns into a grope, I think that's where the line is drawn.

_________________________Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs nowIs some new words of wisdomLike la la la la la la la la la.-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Agreed...If she ever did jump or get offended I would immediatelystop and an offer apology and request forgiveness...

But I'm being told that I cannot express any "sexual" contentwhat-so-ever in front of our children...this disturbs me verymuch considering I NEVER saw affection in our house growingup...except from the multiple sexual abusers....

We try very hard to help our kids to see that there are alternativesto what they are being exposed to outside of our influence ofthe family...we have already lost one(she chose the partygirl lifestyle) to the world and about to lose another to the influences of this sick twisted world...

So much for have morals...now I'm being told they are even wrong...

Edited by Frog (09/15/0704:12 PM)

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

But when you consider how appropriate a behavior you display around your kids is, I think the best question would be to ask whether or not you would do that behavior to your kids.

NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS WOULD I..............

So if I wouldn't do it to my kids, then I cannot do it to mywoman in front of them?

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

I'm going back into my brain....I cannot live outside in thisworld anymore...back to internalizing everything....no wonderI do not have any friends....would rather be alone...

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

But when you consider how appropriate a behavior you display around your kids is, I think the best question would be to ask whether or not you would do that behavior to your kids.

NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS WOULD I..............

So if I wouldn't do it to my kids, then I cannot do it to mywoman in front of them?

I was sitting at my sister's house a few months ago, when her husband came home. He snuck in the front door, looking for the first kid he could find. These kids know the game pretty well. Each kid pretends they don't see him come home in the hopes that he'll pick him/her this time.

Into the living room he comes until he spots his beautiful five year old daughter. He crouches down, sneaks up right behind her, grabs her by the hips, and gives her a great big raspberry on the back of her neck. She squeals in delight as he picks her up like a sack of potatoes, throws her over his shoulder, and searches for the next "unsuspecting" child.

Think about that for a second. Sometimes, the affection you show your kids is twenty times more important than the affection you show others around your kids. There is nothing sexual at all about this action, but if you're having trouble differentiating between a show of affection and a sign of sex, that just means that you're probably not a very good judge as to what is appropriate or not. In that case, it's best to just be very careful.

Bryan

_________________________Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs nowIs some new words of wisdomLike la la la la la la la la la.-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

My "conscience" or "holy spirit" or "whatever you wanna call it" tellsme what is appropiate and what is not....

I'm not rubbing her inner thighs in front of them...

I'm not groping her in front of them...

Nor am I committing any other sexual "sins" in front of them...

This is a very tough subject for me....

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

My psychologist told me that we could NOT be sexual in front of our kids...i.e.; pat on the butt, rub of the thigh, any thing that may be thought of as "SEXUAL" is off limits in front of the kids...as these things/actions are considered by the LAW and psychologists/counselors and so on as "sexual abuse" of the children... so this leaves only a light kiss, a hug or holding hands.... I'm pissed off....

I am not familiar with the law in your area, however, none of what you describes sounds any different than what a person can see in kid's TV shows. I do not think it is inappropriate to do those things in front of your children so long as it is explained to them what the behavior is about, i.e. it is part of an adult relationship and not something children should do. Unless there is some other reason for the comment, it really makes little sense.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

In my estimation, as long at the act is not OVERTLY sexual in nature, a pat on the butt or a hand on the hip would be okay. Children see far worse on television, and contrary to what Bryan said above (forgive me, Bryan), I believe that modeling a healthy relationship is most important for kids to learn what is and is not appropriate. Having said that, I think a good way to mark that boundary is to keep what you do to show affection to the same limit you would if you were in front of a police officer or other authority figure.

Hugging in a "chaste" manner (i.e. no groin contact), holding hands, "peck" kissing, arms around one another... these all seem "safe to me". Anything more I would have serious questions about.

Frog:I'm not sure what kind of message your t is giving you. Why don't you ask him/her what they think is ok or not ok?

I think kids need to see parents acting appropriatly with each other. Remember that in many parts of the world kids sleep in the same room as their parents. Whether that means that there is no sex or quiet sex or whatever, normal human contact does not necessarily affect the kids.

I think that normal affection between parents is perfectly ok. It gives the kids certain messages. Your t should read Bolton, Morris and MacEachron"s book "Abuse of Sexuality" (Sage, 1989) about the abuse of sexuality to get another perspective of the home environment.Ken

I the age of the child is importent also on how much affection, or what level of it, to show. Older children will hopefully have better understanding, and they will know more of proper boundaries, then younger children. I think also the way you act while you are doing something of affection, if your face or manner is more sexual or intimite. In my mind, anything done in a way that you would be assuming your child to be an adult, like you are doing it in front of adults and not children, is not all right. But there is different 'grays' of that.

I have had several RED FLAGS since my initial phone conversationw/ this psychologist...he doesn't treat abusers, which aftera few weeks of mulling over a post I made here, I decided thata professional SHOULD treat both sides, it makes sense to ME...

I have spent most of my ADULT life in self help books andreasearch concerning PROPER/ACCEPTABLE behaviors....this comesfrom being abused multiple times by different men up until i was 19-20....

I have studied human sexual behaviors from the biologicalstand point to the psychological stand point...

I understand a lot about myself and others, I can usuallyread people pretty good...My kids hate me for it...I canpick their stories apart and tell them what is ACTUALLYgoing on...they hate this...

It's like he is asuming that I'm an abuser...like I'm abusing our kids...

Just when I am finally starting to get a grip on my sexualityand be comfortable enough to show APPROPIATE affection, I'mtold that it is inappropiate to do any of the things I believeare acceptable...

UGH...I'm so fucking pissed off right now...at him...not myself..

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

I think I see what is going on here, now. The reason I told you the story about my brother-in-law a few posts ago was to give you an idea of what I deem to be an appropriate way to treat a child so you could compare to some of the things you do with your wife.

I believe it was Mic Hunter's book where it is stated that a couple of the defining points of whether or not an action is child abuse are 1) whether or not the action is intended to be kept secret and 2) whether or not the action is intended as a way to obtain power.

My first reply here was kind of a knee-jerk reaction to the question of "acting sexually around kids". I started to think about all of the "butt-pats" I have seen and experienced over the course of my life. We used to pat each other's butts when I played basketball in high school. Was it sexual? Hell no. You'd be surprised at how much of a morale boost something like that can be to a person's confidence when he's on the free throw line down a couple of points with time running down.

But I have to leave it to the questions I posed earlier. If you would sneak up behind one of your kids, grab him/her around the waist, and give him/her a big raspberry on the back of the neck, then I don't see anything wrong with doing the same to your wife (though she might prefer a kiss over a raspberry).

Bryan

_________________________Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs nowIs some new words of wisdomLike la la la la la la la la la.-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

I think kids need to see parents acting appropriatly with each other. Remember that in many parts of the world kids sleep in the same room as their parents. Whether that means that there is no sex or quiet sex or whatever, normal human contact does not necessarily affect the kids.

Ken,

My T did give an example similar to this: as recent as the late40's - 50's parents and children here in the USA slept in thesame one room house/home/shack...and how did they have children if there wasn't any sexual contact? The "stork"?

he went on to state that todays society/law does not accept thiskind of behavior...?????

and that I should remove myself when any person is being sexual... i.e; take the "flight" approach to someone being sexual..

that doesn't make any sense to me...how about providing me thetools necessary to cope w/ someone being sexual in my presence?

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Frog,As a father of two, it is certainly part of my job to model affection for my wife to my kids. I think in our culture we all know quite clearly where the line is. The best way to be a good father is to love their mother. I think your T is probably over reacting to something you said, or, at the very least did a bad job of communicating a point to you. If, indeed, you are to not show physical affection to your wife in front of your kids, I think you need a new T. Looking back over my childhood, I was quite comforted in the stability of my parents' relationship when I saw physical expressions of love - and trust me, it was all certainly G rated (he never touched her body in intimate places)- but snuggles, kisses, caressing all done in appropriate context give a child a healthy view of physical affection and give them assurances that their parents are in love and not going anywhere. Trust your gut with this. It is probably right.Paul

Frog: I agree pretty much with Paul. The contact between the parents is pretty normal unless it is very loud or obvious. Normal contact, whether it is a kiss or hug in daylight in front of the kids, should be seen as a normal.

At night, hopefully the sexual contact between parents is not loud or obvious. Discretion means that the parents are quiet in their lovemaking and don't groan or moan in the same room as the kids if they have to share the space or the sounds could travel.

I have to agree with Paul as well on this. Not only when he speaks of healthy physical contact between parents in view of children, but also in regard to the therapist's communication with you. Either he's one of the "walking wounded" which means he has his own issues that are spilling over into his professional life, or he's not communicating well his true meaning. Either way you need clarification and/or another therapist.

John

_________________________“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

I am joining this a little late. But what I would do with my wife and with my kids are two entirely different things - like you WTF?

I would touch my wife in public in ways I would never touch my children but in no way would I consider them seeing that sexual abuse. They see far worse on VH1 or for that matter the Disney Channel!!

I often rub her leg, or put my hand in her back pocket while walking, or come up behind her and put my arms around her and pat her stomach...and I do that in front of the kids. That in my opinion is not sexual abuse.

I agree...most of which you have described I do almost dailyw/ my GF in-front of OUR children...It is in no way uncomfortablefor me or her...maybe I should ask our kids what they think aboutour "affection"...

And DON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT THE DISNEY CHANNEL....the stuffon there disturbs me at times and I have them change the channel...

As for VH1/BET/MTV they are ALL BLOCKED...hehehe plus a fewothers...and we don't have any of the premium channels likeHBO and the like...except for all our sports channels...

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

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