In the age of low fares on the majors... the legacies simply pack in more seats (i.e. AA's Less Room Througout Coach 31" or less policy) to compete with airlines like jetBlue. So one is never refreshed after a 6 hour flight in coach. Instead one is usually in a great deal of pain and discomfort especially when the person in-front of you decides to recline. It gets worse when you are at a bulk head seat. The person in front of you can recline all the way and you cannot so you are forced to have some guy's head on your lap for the duration of the flight.

The recline angles aren't even good enough for personal comfort anyway. It is cruel and unusual punishment when seat pitch is 30" or less to have someone recline on you. Jetblue seems to have a minimum pitch of 32" with a maximum of 34" behind the overwing exit rows so recline is certainly allowable under those conditions.

I think newer aircraft on U.S. legacies flying to Europe and Asia probably have better than 30" pitch in Y.

Before anyone says that you get what you pay for, I say that flying the majors on average cost 2X as much (and sometimes more) as flying LCCs to the same destinations. Yet the legacies miss the mark when it comes to value. Why pay 2X as much for a cramped, dilapidated seat, a 75 cent bag of pretzels and half a can of coke when you can fly jetBlue for the same 75 cent snack and a FULL can of coke with 34" pitch, and much better entertainment options for less than a legacy. The legacies miss the mark yet again. They should note that product VALUE is important too. I would pay more than a legacy's price for the kind value jetBlue offers.

It seems to me that the only reason why the traveling public endures the manure heap that is legacy Y service is for the FF miles for upgrades to humane classes of service and a wider selection destinations*.

Actually, if US were to truly go LCC, this could be an option. If not them, one airline should take the absolute "cheapskate" route and offer the bare minimum for a low fare. While one is at it, go Ryanair and charge for the coke and pretzels. Would I fly this airline? For one or two hour hops, sure! LAX-JFK, shoot me first.

I do agree, my last flight on less room throughout coach left me unimpressed (Exclude the pilot from critisism, he went the extra yard to let the passengers know their business was appreciated).

Trvir, I think you were sticking with a frequent flier program. Its too late for Tower air (FF).

I was on UA once and the guy in front of my slammed his seat back all the way, which busted the screen on my laptop. (cost my company $800 to fix it) I was fuming! I made him put his seat back up after a brief "exchange".

Any stories? I think a once notch recline is more than enough to be comfortable.

How would you fell after sitting in coach on a cross country flight without the ability to lean back and recline. A stiff body, jetlagged, and pissed off at the airline. I'll take Y w/ seat recline, thanks.

I hate it when people put their seats back. Yes, I know it's their "right" to do so, but it's also very selfish. Same thing on buses. As a courtesy, I always turn around and say to the person behind me, "Mind if I put my seat back?" and they always say yes, it's just polite. But I rarely put my seat back, just because I know how annoying it is to have someone's seat in my face.

And as someone else said, the seats don't recline enough to be comfortable.

Right and speaking about the "Value and Class" of those LCC'S I don't exactly see them flocking to all the small no money markets that majors fly to. Compair Jetblue's or any other LCC'S route map to say um any major and that's why they are making money.....I can get to maybe 25 places in the world in Jetblue but I can get anywhere in the world on a major! Oh and Moman you should be more careful it was your own fault that happened and I would of left my seat reclined.... People pay for that small option.

AnnoyedFA, how was it his own fault? He can't use the tray table to work on his laptop in case the guy in front decides to slam his seat back? If you really are an F/A, I hope I never will be on a flight of yours.

“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an

He can't use the tray table to work on his laptop in case the guy in front decides to slam his seat back? If you really are an F/A, I hope I never will be on a flight of yours.

If the laptop usage is essential, he should fly in a premium cabin in case it's not possible in Y. I don't get it how people complain about reclining the seats - I buy a reclining seat and will sure as hell recline it. Try those Ryanair lovely yellow seats - truly a horrible experience.

"I was on UA once and the guy in front of my slammed his seat back all the way, which busted the screen on my laptop. (cost my company $800 to fix it) I was fuming! I made him put his seat back up after a brief "exchange"."

The problem: You have the right to use your laptop while flying. The guy in front of you has also the right ot put back his seat. Your laptop's screen was busted. Reparation cost: $800.

The solution: Your company may pay for a biz or first class ticket next time. Otherwise, try to change [or exchange] your seat with nobody in front of you, or simply avoid the use of your laptop on board.

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein

The solution: Your company may pay for a biz or first class ticket next time. Otherwise, try to change [or exchange] your seat with nobody in front of you, or simply avoid the use of your laptop on board.

I wish I had been in the front of the plane, I can't change that my old company was cheap and wouldn't pay for a good seat. It's also hard to change seats when the plane is completely booked.

AnnoyedFA, thanks for the support. You would too have moved your seat back up; this guy did without a word when he saw how mad I was He paid me back by letting his baby scream the entire flight.

The problem was the guy slammed back his seat without giving me any chance to move my laptop. That was what upset me. He does have a right to recline his seat, but when his "right to recline" interferes with my "right to enjoy the flight" I do have a problem. Should you get to exercise your "right to smoke" on a plane which means I can't exercise my "right to have clean air?" Common courtesy is expected and appreciated.

I am much more careful now and generally fly AA with MRTC (but not much longer).

"The problem was the guy slammed back his seat without giving me any chance to move my laptop. That was what upset me. He does have a right to recline his seat, but when his "right to recline" interferes with my "right to enjoy the flight" I do have a problem. Should you get to exercise your "right to smoke" on a plane which means I can't exercise my "right to have clean air?" Common courtesy is expected and appreciated."

I have one doubt. When so said "slammed back his seat" are you meaning "roughly"? With the intention of broke your computer?

Usually a passenger don't ask for permission to recline their seat.

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein

My understanding is that AA has the old pitch, 31" on the 757s and the A300s. On the rest of the fleet, only 1 row of coach is being put back in the aircraft, so the pitch should be 32.5" to 33". Not as nice as 34" to 35", but better than the cattle-car days before MRTC was implemented.

Here's my problem with seat recline. It always happens that whenever I read a broadsheet newspaper, the person in front of me reclines the seat all the way. Now, I do fold up the paper when reading and eating breakfast or lunch at home. But that's because I have to space to unfold and refold.

I don't have that much personal space on a plane, particularly if I have the window seat. So, reading a broadsheet becomes a pain.

I do not believe the guy had the intention of breaking my computer. He slammed his seat back quickly, which is probably common (especially with kids), but I try to go slowly to give the person behind me a chance to move their paper, etc.

If I had a half-full glass of water on the tray it would have been knocked over.

The best answer as to when tigher pitch seats (33" or less) is to limit the amount one could recline the seat back. Usually a notch or 2 (1-2 inches of movement) is enough for most people. I do not lean back my seat without checking if the seat behind me is occupied, and if it is, consider the size of the person sitting there before leaning back the seat. I take busses every day to/from New Jersey and NYC, and reclined seats can make it very unconfortable as cannot read the newspaper or do work at your seat.

I have somewhat mixed emotions on this issue. First, I like to lean back on longer flights. Two, I fly red-eye's farily often and reclining is mandatory for that. Third, I hate how people put their seats back rapidly. Its not good for drinks or laptops.

I think the solution is quite easy...and will never happen. A little courtesy to lean back slowly, which I do, and more seat pitch.

A damper system in the recline mechanism might help if it slowed down the movement. I am sure however, that it would add cost and weight and therefore will never happen either.

Perhaps an announcement as a part of the FA greeting or video might help...if people hear it enough...aw, forget it, most people don't listen anyway.

I cant stand arrogant idiots who fully recline their seat in front of me on a flight...especially when they do it when meals or drinks are served.

I was flying LOT Polish LHR-WAW in the 737-500 back last year, i believe i sat in row 6 or so next to the engine... They just served meals/drinks about halfway through the flight... I had beige pants and a white t-shirt on, and the drink i had on my tray table was tomato juice.

Guy in front of me kept leaning forward and then *falling* or *flying* whatever you want to call it...back into his seat ( basically like every 5 minutes, he was reading papers which he put on the floor ). Well, NUMEROUS times my tomato juice ALMOST came out of the cup and spilled on me. The first time, he did it lightly... After noticing it almost spill, i drank most of it so my cup was about half full. Next time, he flew back into his seat so hard it almost nearly spilled again.

I was getting PO'd and was about 5 secs from telling the fool off. If the tomato juice did in fact spill on my beige pants and white t-shirt...well, i'll leave it at that.

[Edited 2005-02-11 22:42:43]

Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'

I have noticed since I started flying AA after the TW merger that the seat recline is less than TW’s, I would say they recline about half the distance that TWA’s seats reclined.

I have flown on the TW red eyes from LAX to JFK numerous times and was comfortable with the amount of recline in order to sleep. On AA you can not recline enough so your head remains on the headrest if you fall asleep.

The solution is so simple. Design the seat to recline by moving the bottom forward instead of by moving the top back. People with short legs can recline as much as they want by taking away their own legroom instead of somebody else's legroom. I'm pretty sure I read about an airline that is actually doing this.

"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison

Most flight attendants probably want seat recline be eliminated -- so many passengers forget that their seats are reclined and that flight attendants have to tell them to ..... you know before take off and before landing

Are the couple inches of reclining really that important? Really all they need to do is redesign the seats to be more supportive of the back and then get rid of the recline option all together. There really is no point to having it unless you are in first or biz class where it actually allows you to relax.

So why should someone else suffer because youre tall? You know what youre in for when you fly and if you cant fly 1st, biz, in exit row or bulk head, then you're SOL. But if Im sitting in front of you and I want to stretch out a little, then Im reclining regardless of who is behind me.

FA4B6 in your words "SOL" So of you're a midget, paying the same fare as someone 6'7, would you be comfortable flying in baggage? Same schedule, probably same service, just you require less space.

I know this can open a can of worms! But some people really make me think. The general population has gotten taller over the years. Yes, pitch is getting shorter. Some things we can't control. . . like being 6'7. I can control the fact that I'm 6'7 and NOT 400 lbs. And usually can manage not sit in a middle seat!

Common courtesy. . . like the 12 year old in front of me who thinks they are in rocking chair. After just so many knee jabs to the seat back, it's futile. That's when I choose to stand in the galley for as much of the flight as possible.

I usually am lucky to have a "premium seat" when in Y. But even in F, sometimes climbing out from a window seat when those in front are fully reclined is awkward, and disruptive to those around.

Recline or not in Y? do your seats recline at Carnegie Hall, regardless of where you're seated, how much you paid, what size you are? Discuss!

Most flight attendants probably want seat recline be eliminated -- so many passengers forget that their seats are reclined and that flight attendants have to tell them to ..... you know before take off and before landing

No offense intended to flight attendants, or you, but who cares? They're paid to do that minute and a half check.

Now, while I'm only 5'7, I think seats should recline. First of all, if it is so uncomfortable, fly First Class, Premium Economy or get an exit row. Second of all, the seats upright position must be designed for the first ten minutes and last ten minutes of flight, when accessing the aisles and exits must be as easy as possible. Its too uncomfortable to not recline during other phases of flight.

Islip, I actually had the laptop on my lap. When he brought the seat back quickly, he hit the top of the screen and jammed it down, causing it to flex and the bottom part of the computer lodged in my stomach. The girl seated next to me and I were watching a DVD, the screen flickered and went out, and that was the end. She said something kind of nasty towards him.

For all those that commented that laptop users should either upgrade to Biz or leave them off...that makes no sense.

Airlines cater to the business flyer...as they should, as they tend to pay for the more expensive tickets and have much more repeat business than your average non-business customer.

They even go so far as to install powerports for laptop use and modem connections for planes that have phones installed. To say laptops shouldn't be used at all in Y shows exactly how much thought was put into their posts.

What needs to happen is to re-design aircraft seating. Recline should be moving the seat-bottom forward instead of the seatback backwards. This design naturally leaves more room at the bottom of the seat, so seat-pitch near the knees would be greater as well. The design of aircraft seating is 40 years old. It needs to change with the times and the trends. Granted this would be a major expense, but initially changing out a few rows for "business economy" would alleviate some of that burden, instead of replacing every seat.

ANNOYEDFA - Can you please divulge what airline you fly for, and what routes you commonly fly? I want to know ahead of time so I can book on another airline. Your narrow view of customers and "hate the world" attitude makes me question your ability to perform your duties.

/// Braniff - We Get You There In Flying Colors /// (until Putnam got ahold of us)

One question, How would your design survive the required 9G impact loading? I'm missing something in the structure... (Note, I'm asking, not shooting it down.) Your idea has one major consequence; whomever is reclining reduces their own leg room (space) and not the space of the person behind them. One other tidbit, the only ways I see implementing your suggestion involve a "pinch point" that would be a bit dangerous (four bar linkages that could cut fingers, carry on handles, etc.) ... Just thinking out loud.

I 100% agree, every seat should be able to use a laptop.

One thing I forgot to mention, I've heard ryanair even removed the tray tables. Is that true (I've never flown them); laptop use without a tray table would be inefficient.

What is the point of having a "reclining seat" and a "table" if you cannot use them. The main problem is the seat pitch, and I propose the following solution.

I think that the US govt should pass a law requiring a minimum 36" seat pitch. This law should apply to any aircraft on a 1.5 hour or longer flight in, to or from the US. If ticket costs climb by 15%, who gives a c**p. Also, this law could have the effect of reducing costs, by possibly allowing the aircraft to carry more cargo.

So why should someone else suffer because youre tall? You know what youre in for when you fly and if you cant fly 1st, biz, in exit row or bulk head, then you're SOL. But if Im sitting in front of you and I want to stretch out a little, then Im reclining regardless of who is behind me.

I have never used recline (ever), I always figure it too rude to the person behind me, maybe I'm just too nice a person. And I'm 6'2", but I guess I just don't see how recline makes me more comfortable.

We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean

FlybyGuy,
Welcome to America. The land of the free and the home of the free market economy. The reason that you are getting the kind of treatment you are getting on the legacy carriers is very simple. You demand the lowest possible fare. Let me ask you an honest question, and please give me an honest answer:

There is no argument that JetBlue is a great airline. New airplanes, great people, TV, legroom, reasonable fares.

Now, lets say that JetBlue is $75 higher than United (assuming this is the carrier on which you have your FF miles) for the trip you need to take. Who are you going to fly? I'm going to bet you will say United. If I am wrong about this, that you are a better man than most, because you see the value in a good product.

If you are like 85% of the others in the marketplace, you will take the lowest price regardless of who the carrier is that will take you there. WHY? There are generally three reasons for this?

1. People generally regard airline pricing as a commodity. Since pricing changes hourly, it is important to buy it at the right time to get the best deal. Unless you have to get there at a certain time, you will shop until you find the fare you want. Most business travelers now are mandated to find the lowest fare, unless they have a program that makes them fly a certain airline to get a discount.

2. People do not appreciate service, therefore service providers do not provide good service, therefore people have bad feelings about service providers and people develop a cynical attitude toward service providers. As a result, service providers get treated badly in general and customers get treated badly in return and the result is a general sense in people that people don't provide good service anymore. Of course, there is a general sense in service providers that people do not appreciate what they do. Until this cycle of behavior gets broken...people will not develop a sense of value toward service. If there is no value built in service, people won't pay for it.

3. Competition and the concept of supply and demand. Right now, there is too much supply and not enough demand. When you factor in the state of the airline industry and the deep cuts in service and amenities, the competitive factor of the LCCs, and the fact that in some markets, the carriers (especially the legacy carriers) will give the seats away for nothing just to fill them up, you have a recipe for an implosion in the industry.

In other words, there is no incentive for you to look at anything else BUT price in your buying decision, because all those other options have been taken away from you in one fashion or another.

The bad news is that it isn't going to get better anytime soon. There has to be a "correction" in the US airline industry or a "right sizing" to occur before any improvement will occur in the economic outlook in the industry in the USA.

If we look at carriers overseas, the European carriers are starting to make money. Asian carriers were making money (pre-Tsunami), but the US carriers as a whole did disasterously. WHY? Their international markets did fairly well, but because such a large percentage of their businesses are domestic flying and those losses were huge, this is where the larger carriers are taking the bit hits. The news is that the situation is getting worse, not better. Carriers are taking even more drastic actions to cut their costs. Some of these cost cutting measures are really silly: example....today, American announced that it was doing away with pillows on domestic flights. They would save $370,000 annually by not having pillows on domestic flights. They have already done away with food, on some flights you can buy food.

Now, here is the thing: Because you want the lowest fare and because the airline cannot afford to do that and continue to operate, you get what you get. This is the chicken and the egg argument. If you want to fix it, what do you do first, do you fix the product, or do you change the mentality of the buyer? The first is hard if you have no money, the latter is damn near impossible. So, the reality is this: You have a choice.

My advice is simple. If you fly a lot, pick two carriers. One as your primary, the second as your backup when you can't use the first one. Give the first one ALL your business. BE LOYAL. If things go wrong sometimes, be flexible. BE LOYAL. Why do I say this? Simple.

If you fly a lot and you are loyal, it will pay off in spades. the perks will come back to you. If you fly a little, you will become accustom to the way that carrier does things, so that when things don't go right, then you will know what to do because you will be familiar with their procedures and policies.

If you want to pick a LCC, then that's fine. If they go the places that you want and they have a loyalty program that works for you. Go for it. Personally, I have chosen Delta, because of their affiliation with American Express. I am a very LOYAL American Express customer and because of that, I am treated very well by Delta. Since Delta is a key partner in SkyTeam and since SkyTeam now includes Continental, Northwest, Delta, Air France, Korean, Alitalia, KLM and CSA, there are a lot of choices if I want to use an award. In addition, they have a reciprocal agreement with Alaska Airlines and I use Alaska exclusively up and down the west coast. I have all the perks associated with my status with American Express so I don't have to worry much when I travel...thankfully, because traveling anymore is a big pain in the butt.

Again, this is an example of how you can work things to your advantage working within the existing system. It is far from perfect. It isn't going to get better in the short term. However, being smart about traveling and knowing what to do, when to do it (and to whom) makes the difference and puts me in control of my travel (when 99.99% of people are not in control of anything, which makes traveling the most stressful activity for anyone).

How could anyone say that tall people should either buy biz or first class seats or stay grounded? I think that is quite arrogant. Certainly common courtesy goes a long way. If you know that there is a tall person behind you a little compromise can be mutually beneficial.

Secondly, I am NOT opposed to international flights with reclining seats. Only domestic flights... since these tend to be cattle-cars of the skies.

I think that since Y passengers get little or no respect domestically, international Y passengers should be given a treat, i.e. more generous seat pitch. International seat pitches should be better because if people were subjected to seat pitches offered domestically for 5, 7, 10, or 12 hour flights, people would be dropping like flies because of DVT. The premium classes account for most of the profits on international routes anyway, so keeping Y comfortable will ensure that Y on your airline is preferred over that of competitors.

When the economy gets better and airlines begin jacking up prices again I assure you that the will not jack up amenities to pre 9-11 levels as their predatory profiteering spirits will be in good health again. When they could start charging $2,500+ for a walk up Y JFK-LAX again people will wonder what they are paying for when they sit in a 31" pitch seat, have to pay extra for a bad box lunch, with no blanket to keep them warm, no pillow to sleep on (not everyone has the time or space to purchase their own pillow), and no place to plug in their laptops.

I hope that airlines such as AA, CO, DL, UA, US don't think that dirt cheap fares are the be-all end-all solution to their financial woes, otherwise the entire industry is spiraling into a war of attrition.