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So the EU is advocating a ban on car parts and components manufactured in the UK, or subjecting them to a high import duty to the EU. Hmmm Lets put VAT up to 50% and impose an import duty on everything imported to the UK from the EU, French Cars, cheeses, wine, German sausages, cars, the list is endless,

Then we give a discount to the Chinese, Japanese, Indians and anyone else who manufactures or produces goods within the UK borders and employs British workers. Stop the influx of European and world wide economic migrants.

I love my beer strong since I cannot usually drink much in volume of anything...but I do prefer it to be more liquid than solid! Or heck, toss it into the ingredients of a meat pie and bake it! Hmmmmm....(Smile)
If I visit, I’m stopping in London and dragging Crissie Shye away with me and we’ll probably be knockered severely by the time we reach you! We’ll be hungry by then, so let’s get one of those meat/ale pies while we’re at it! Lol
Xoxo

No kidding. I was in a place called Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese in London once and I was served a beer so thick you could stand a spoon in it, and warm enough you could take a bath (supposing you were small enough to get in the mug, which I am, almost). It was VERY good. But my favourite is still Bamberg smoked beer.

The UK may spend a lot on defence but from what I've read one needs to look rather closely at where the money is going and at the general state of our forces. Procurement etc. has been successively outsourced with the well-known result that things become more expensive, are burdened with debt and that the weapons systems so procured don't work as they should. Not only that, the procurement contracts forbid MoD engineers from carry out repairs and modifications themselves with the result that warships, submarines, tanks and so on are, in many cases, unfit for purpose and stand around waiting for a visit to tjhe dockyard, the workshops or whatever.

In any case, The EU and NATO are two entirely different matters and deliberately confusing the two only serves certain peoples ill-informed prejudices.

As far as 'short-changing' the world's poorer countries goes, the UK is very good at that by itself.

As Katia says, the EU isn't perfect but no way can it be described as a joke. I'm more than happy to be living in the EU!

As someone who lives in Europe, has an inernational marriage and moved from place to place half a dozen times etc, I got to say, the European Union has its issues (I can't believe that we can' t have a bloody unified driving licence for example), but to say it's a total joke? No way.

Shelling out £214 billion since 2012, Britain remains just one of five out of 28 alliance members to meet its key 2% of GDP annual target.

A new report reveals the UK now accounts for almost a third of all defence spending across the EU.

The research by the Henry Jackson Society think tank reveals just how dependent the rest of the continent is on Britain.

Academics last night said it will boost Theresa May’s hand during Brexit negotiations, which will include a security treaty.

It emerged that Germany underspent the most, with the Berlin government falling short of its NATO spending target by 39%, or £ 106billion.

Italy short changed European security by £67billion, or 43%, and Spain by £56billion, missing its NATO target by 54%.

Even big military spender France fell short by £18billion, missing the NATO target by 9%.

The report’s author James Rogers said: “In recent months, the United Kingdom has been disparaged by many Europeans for its decision to leave the EU.

“Britain remains deeply committed to the security of Europe as the largest European military and foreign aid spender.

“Moreover, most European countries, insofar as they have short-changed both NATO and the world’s poorest people by hundreds of billions of dollars over the past five years, have their own shortcomings, which should not be overlooked.”

The only country to pay in more, was America, for the defence of European borders.

The EU is one big joke, the primary countries bordering the threatening countries, have paid in the least. Eastern block countries bordering Russia, have only paid in E18 Billion between them.

I did'nt so much vote Tory, I voted for Teresa May because I genuinely think, given a chance, she would change things for the better and steer a government away from the staid far right, snouts in the trough Tories and I think the majority of voters in the last election thought the same, It was a close call with Corbyn and his impossible promises.

Overall crime in England is up by 51%, knife crime has doubled in the last 3 years, burglaries, rape and child molesting and child murder is up 12%, from a government that states police must use their resources more effectively and despite promises by the previous Government that a Zero tolerance would be imposed for, usociable and criminal behavour. Lets tell the EU to stick their trade deal and demands for more money, put up VAT to 50% on the imports of French and German cars, French wines and cheeses, Give discounts to Japan for opening up car plants in England,snatch back the electric companies and gas companies, waterworks and make them once again state owned, ploughing all the revenue thus gained in to policing, hospitals and our own infastructure. Fed up of paying taxes and contributing to the over weight EU subsidising lavish lifestyles and expense accounts for moronic, self centered beuraucrats.

Hi Cris,The US and others have released Satellite pictures of the North Korean Bomb test site..see bbc news website, 38 North released satellite pictures showing landslides, around Mt Mantap.From these and the seismic data There is a Strong suggestion that test tunnels in the Mountain have collapsed following the most recent Test. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41170940

I would not be surprised, if this information is raised in profile ,as the test site is close enough to the China border .In the article detail there is suggestion that North Korea may well need to do more of these under ground test explosion .This presents China with the legitimate point at which to force ably declare that North Korea should not do any further testing at an unstable site

Has anyone considered, he just does'nt want to end up like Sadam Hussein or Gaddafi, while the USA, Japan & S. Korea carry out intimidating military excercises every year just miles from the N. Korean Borders. His bluster in part and aim to prove he has atomic capabilities in essence is deter any idea of a foreign power to invade.

Whilst I don't agree with dictatorships and brainwashing a population, spending 90% of a countries GDP on military power, whilst millions starve. If the Korean population want freedom and a life, including the armed forces they should get rid of their own leader, a peoples revolution, too many times the West has interefered with the internal affairs of other countries and to be honest, failed to improve the lives of the people of those countries, in most cases leaving chaos and anarcy.

Kim Jon is a well educated man, not stupid enough to actualy fire the first shot unless he feels threatened, provoked.

The west allowed India, Pakistan, Israel to develope nuclear weapons because it suited our policies at the time, the fear now is if Islamic extremists gain control of such a weapon, especially in Pakistan, with the mind set of those people they dont hold their own lives of value except to die for allah and to cause as much colateral damage to the infidels. Another typical example of Britains intereference by the occupation of India and then dividing up the country, Britain creating the state of Palestine, the list is endless.

Trump was right make America great again, BUT not at the expense of a major disaster, millions of American lives, South Koreans and other countries dragged into an unwinable war, Kim and Trump are pushing the limits of stupid rhetoric.

Typical example would show in the case of Russia deploying missiles to Cuba, JFK threatened a nuke retaliation on Russia, Russia withrew, is'nt this exactly what Kim Jon Un is doing now? Ultimately it is is presumed in a conflict with N korea America would win, leaving america with more than a bloody nose if China did support the north, China does not want a North controlled and sponsored by America on its borders, Russia does'nt want America as a closer neighbour, South Korea does not want to encompass the north it could'nt afford it. As usual the French and the rest of the EU would prevaricate and wait to see who wins.

If the North have just tested such a large atom bomb, how come the USA and other western countries have not release satelite pictures/images?

I'm not much for venting my anger at political whatever but what has happened to the US is unthinkable.
To the rest of the world I and some like minded people extend our sincere apology. A segment of our population has been coerced into electing a monster. If we're lucky we will get rid of him as quickly as possible. Hopefully, what damage has been done can be repaired. Again our apologies to all.
Gracie xxxooo

He spouts all of hus non-sensical ravings because deep inside he knows that he will not get into power because there are far too many skeletons in his closet. He attempted to bribe the 1st time voters with promises of free this, free that, These gullible fuckwits, yes I said gullible fuckwits ate up his promises without having all the facts such as those who are older would likely feel the pinch more or the eldaly too. Beleive me when I say this if Beatnik Bill had won the election within 48 hours he would have been removed by military coup due to his dubious association with paramillitary groups both home & abraod & his insistance on decimating our armed forces & the only defences we have being trident. He is far more untrustworthy than blair & brown put together

Tests being undertaken at the moment prove, over 600 tower blocks have the same flamable meterials and design

I am horrified that Corbyn has jumped on the bandwagon blaming the conservatives over the tower fire, blaming austerity and lack of public funding, when the majority of these tower blocks were refurbished under a labour government when it was spend, spend, spend, even during the liberal conservative era, even under the conservative government labour run councils ignored the recomendations of specialists and authorised the use of cladding and designs, which have been banned in even 3rd world countries and banned in the EU, so much for Corbyn and his rush to blame an individual political party. The most blatant disregard for honour, taking advantage of a horrific disaster for political gain. This stupic reckless man, runs of at the mouth, promising the earth and an everlasting money tree. Same with imigration, 500,000 a year, who is going to foot the bill, for the increasing demands on the NHS social housing, education? imigrants, refugees most of who cannot work because they don't speak english, who is going to pay for their housing and needs? anyone with any money is going to leg it.

I am not realy a staunch conservative, always hoping that one day we would have a labour government that was both practical, sensible and worked for the disadvantaged and the poor, instead of conservatives that seem intent on selling off everything the british tax payer owns, cheap, as in the banks that wrere bailed out by the then labour government.

Dissapointed that Corbyn who had no chance of ever winning a majority promised to basically tax the investors in the economy, who provided jobs and security to the nation and price them out of business, when you are not faced with sticking to imposible pledges and illogical promises you made during campaigning, no worries, BUT the younger people, stupidly thought Ah ha this is for us, lots of freebies. (the old saying there is no such thing as a free lunch) unless your getting it on expenses in parliament.

May needs to choose her advisors better, personally I think she is a reformer, willing to change direction if she is advised fairly, trouble with a lot of advisors in both parties, they are tainted with the outrageous excesses of their own parties views, and feel forced to stick to traditional aims.

The tower block fire was horrendous, extremely sad, May was condemmed for not talking to the people there, perhaps she was overcome, did'nt want to be seen making political gain by this tradgedy, Corby was right up there on the bandwagon blaming the concervatives for their short comings for not providing adequate safety, most of these high rise blocks that have had this type of work done, has been done in Labour held bouroughs, To my knowledge risk assesments are done before this work is passed for implementation, blame the risk accessors. blame the individual people who passed this type of work for ignoring advice they were given, not a political party as a whole. PM.s and ministers are not experts in a given field, they rely on advice and instructions from people who are suposed to know these thing, probably why May lost so many seats, she relied on the inept and greedy traditionalists, time to sack them.

I honestly believe she is a caring sensible person, people just cannot get the point she is not a loud mouth sensationalist, last time a labour government was booted out of office, the secretary to the treasury, left a note on his desk, ''ha ha there is nothing left, we spent it all'' Probably a lot went on Corbys jaunts abroad chummying up with filthy rich despot leaders of starving countries. Corbyn will be at the airport welcoming back fleeing members of ISIS from Syria, Afghanistan, where ever. Corbyn is a dangerous radical, implausable and reckless.

I taught students with Special Needs for a number of years and unfortunately I acquired a sixth sense of being able to spot a person who didn't get the help they needed. Sadly, you see these people everyday - driving too fast, not observing stop signs and being down right rude. You shrug it off and say to yourself "there for the grace of God, go I." These people usually get killed through their ignorance or stupidity. I feel for them but when they get elected to public office - I get fearful. Please have pitty on us in the USA - we're not all Special Ed.

Thank you Lucy, for posting your thoughts. I love hearing from a multitude of people, each with their own viewpoint. But unfortunately, not too many people want to post things here in the forum. I had to look up Nigel Farage.

Traci, I never heard of dominion and the seven mountains and will look them up next. I wrote about the film here
http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/10236/-/view/post_id/72745
and I also added my personal story and how it somewhat relates on a particular gender level. I also added army photos of me at 19-20 years old--21 to 22 years ago, my how time flies. You can see my flat chest that served me well back then. You can also see my feminine and masculine traits, even posing kind of girlie in some...you can put me in the manly uniform, but you can't strip me fully of being me ;)

Lucy...I truly believe the governor will repeal that insane bill as soon as he is advised in how to gracefully bow out of it while "saving face". NC is feeling the impact already in their pocketbook and far too many people are getting mad at it, not just our community.

Trump was initially refreshing with his outrageous attacks on the extablished political system. So many people believe we have a corrupt system that only serves to enrich those who are in it. Even thos who earn a good living are agreeing. But he has gone beyond the lines of decency with his continuous spewing of hateful remarks and like an old, tired comic act, has worn out his welcome so to say. He offers no solutions, just a lot of rhetoric that only serves to inspire feeble minded people who are easily led. He will not win the election no matter how much he says he will because even his own party do not want him elected. What is even scarier than Trump winning is the thought that a religious fanatic like Ted Cruz could win! He represents all that is bad about religion using the bible and fundamentalist view points to drum up interest in him. Are you familiar with the extreme right religious movement called dominionism and the seven mountains? It is scary to think that we're heading in that direction because it aligns itself with hardcore extreme right christianity that reads quite similar to sharia law and their like. In a nutshell, he and his lot are no different than ISIS and other whacked out people. The USA was supposedly founded as a country that separated church from state and was one of the reasons so many fled the UK to our shores way back in the day.

Lisa, like yourself, I never learned to read music but instead play guitar and harmonica by ear. The harmonica is very easy to master if one has a good sense of timing and tone. The guitar does require knowledge of chords and notes but can be picked up pretty easily as well, at least to about the intermediate level...but if one has the inate gift of "feeling" music, this is not as difficult as you might think. I believe the keyboard could be mastered in the same manner. Lucy is an awesome keyboard player and her band sounds really good. I've seen some videos and they cover a wide array of cool stuff! I run into many trans people who play instruments pretty well. Must be a special thing our maker was kind enough to allow us to have, huh? (smile) And your mother must have been a handful to deal with, right? When are you going to tell us about the film????

I will be posting something more on the arts (an upcoming movie--foreign film--I just read about) that I NEVER heard about...it has something to do about gender...that's my teaser to you! But I spent time late last night reading Wikipedia all about this. It's unbelievable. That's it for now...Love, Lisa ;)

Well, now you tell me you have the inside scoop! Someone like me who just channel surfs the news thinks she's okay because that's what is presented to me, so I didn't know any better ;) I forgot you live so close to Washington D.C., the White House, and the C.I.A. Do you know how many movies I've seen that are set there? Too many to count!

I play the piano/keyboard very rudimentary. I'm a complete amateur. I taught myself to play by ear in a very basic way since I was a child. A few formal lessons, but I couldn't hack it because I had already taught myself by ear, I didn't want to practice scales, and reading music seems impossible. I created many simple songs in the last five years. Again, extremely basic. I sang in choir and show choir (singing and dancing) in high school for two years. THAT was fun. I'm a pretty good singer, if I don't say so myself! My mom was a night club singer and MC in Taiwan when my dad took some R&R while serving in Vietnam. They became pen pals, then she came to the states and after some years, wreaked havoc on him and all of us kids! She was not the demure little quiet and compliant Asian girl. Very dominating, domineering, controlling, hot temper! But very motivated, ambitious, and aggressive and became a super successful business broker. You think she was a high testosterone woman?! She passed it on to me but I'm nothing like her. I'm sweet ;) ;) ;)

Nader is pretty cool and dead on correct about Hillary. I used to live next door to a secret service man that had a lot of interaction with her. Actually, it was her doing all the talking for she more or less told him to eff off every time he'd try to say something. His description of the manner in which she treated those around her is not fit for even the worst animals on the planet. She presents one face while actually being something else. No, she is not the type of human I'd want leading us. I could go on but it serves no purpose. It is just my opinion as we all have opinions....no biggie...oh, I will not leave our country regardless of who gets elected. But some candidates are going to make it really tough for us going forward. I do not care for Kanye either! LOL

What is ironic is that I rarely discuss politics with others. And here I am opening up to others on my thoughts about things as if I were some kind of expert in the field. I really much prefer discussing music and the arts and anything that others do that can open my eyes to bigger and better for our future.

Lord arrives at the house of Lords, by taxi, keeps the taxi waiting while he literaly runs into the parliament building signs in to qualify for his £300 attendance fee and then imediately leaves, hops back in the taxi and is spirited away. It would be interesting to know!!! if he will claim the expenses for the taxi to heap even more shame on this elitist disgrace to fair play and democracy, What a waste of space these people are.

Then there are those that sign in, to again qualify for their £300, only to take business cronies to the subsidised restaurants to discuss their own personal businesses most of these have probably never even attended the house of lords on legitimate goverment business. The sooner they get rid of this house of unelected jollies the better.

I have read with interest articles about this weekend's Trump protests marches, and of how women have garnered the conviction to voice their views.

Two thoughts for discussion here;

Firstly, I am envious of the conviction, confidence and basic drive that women across the world have and reflect upon the absence of a masculine equivalent. Obviously feminism exists due to the absence of equivalence and has been provoked here by an uninvited grope from a dope, but it's a gender that feels clearer, more coherent and frankly awake than its masculine opposite. I am envious and applaud not from a desire to be an active participant but just for the commonality courage and compassion that is evident.

Secondly though, I reflect upon our community and of how we may or are judged by all including women and feminists. Do you aspire too and feel that trans-women can be accurately defined as feminists, would you describe yourself as one and have you been confronted with warmth or the cold-shoulder by women who define themselves as feminists?

So Trump and Greer in one posting. Ambitious, naive and a faintly ridiculous pairing.

I have been quiet for too long. I wont be around for years - I getting older. But in the time that remains I'm searching for the mentally affected who voted for the twit and raise hell with them. So foar everyone I've talked with didn't vote against Hitler.

OMG. I had an awful nightmare last night. I woke up remembering checking the election results in the middle of the night and Hitler was President. I checked again and it was true. I cannot begin to tell you how depressed I am today, except to say I fear waking Thursday to discover I am male.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply :) your point relating to societal inertia is well taken; the key, in my view, to overcoming this inertia and driving change lies in subverting the accepted narratives that 'everyone knows are true'.

In the 20th century, the generally accepted credo was that there were two sexes, and you could tell which one you were by checking your anatomy. If you disagreed with what that check told you, you were mentally ill. As time went on, this world view was expanded to include 'sex-changes' where people could have surgery to change their anatomy to that of the opposite sex. This was all rather shocking, and not approved of at all by the popular press. Some second wave feminists weren't too keen either.

As more and more people had the courage to be open about their gender identities, and their experiences, the narrative adapted to include 'man/woman born in wrong body, hormones/surgery correct mistake, happy ending'. The next great leap forward will come when the accepted world-view recognises the equally valid gender identities of people who identify as both male and female, or as neither; the gender-fluid, genderqueer, two-spirited, neutrois and agender members of our transgender family. The world also needs to understand, and accept, intersex people whose gender identity may be complicated by incongruent physiology.

To achieve this change in narrative, we need visibility from non-binary and gender-nonconforming people, and that's where the Government's latest stance is so unhelpful. It's much more difficult to be visible and authentic in one's gender identity when the Government of the day is sending a message that the protections for 'transgender people' don't apply to you - unless someone attacks you because they (mistakenly) think you're transtioning from male to female, or vice versa.

It'll come; there'll be a genderfluid Caitlyn Jenner, or a neutrois Laverne Cox or ... well, your guess is as good as mine :) but I believe it would have come quicker, and more comfortably, if the excellent recommendations of Maria Miller and her committee had been taken just a little bit more seriously.

Thanks Judith for this Posting.I think you make a very valid point in saying that as far as government is concerned protection is only framed around the model of individuals registering officially as 'real' transgender people which is to say those transitioning from male to female and vice versa.In context I think this really means governement draws a line based on individuals who have made this official registering of themselves as Transgendered, and will only make NHS Funding based on figures.This is why the Media and government will officially use the figure 1 in 10 thousand as being Transgendered.I agree the Governemnt policy falls short in this approach , which inevitably will only cover those who have officially declared themselves as TG, and by default everyone else is considered Binary .

I take the language 'taking under consideration' to mean a tacit acknowledgement that these policies do NOT help the many Transgendered people who have not officially declared themselves as TG , and who may well through circumstances never feel that they can make that declaration to the wider society which is to say that they feel discriminated against but just have to put up with it.

I like the fact that you use the phrase"realities of transgender experience in the 21st Century".For me one of the realities is that it may be the 21st Century , and much of Alvin Toppflers Future Shock,Third wave predictions are evident , but the everyday people I know still carry the old social programming , and just admit that they find a difficulty understanding all this . This report just reminds me that Societies have a lot of Inertia, and that progress is slow. Its also a reminder that on a practical level as a TG you have to make the most of your life and make your own way, goverments are slow to follow.

To say I'm disappointed would be to pretend that I had real hope that the reasoned and compelling points raised by January's report, and the recommendations arising from them, would lead to genuine actions on the part of the Government. So no, I'm not disappointed.

I am however angry at so many platitudes, mixed together with 'taking under consideration', 'seeking to gather more evidence' and downright denial of the realities of transgender experience in the 21st century.

In particular, it's apparent that the Government is determined that the gender binary will continue to be the only acknowledged narrative for the foreseeable future, and that the only protection under the law for non-binary and non-conforming gender identities will be if we're 'mistaken' for 'real' transgender people, which is to say those transitioning from male-to-female or vice versa.

In January this year, the Women's and Equality Committee published their report 'Transgender Equality' (HC390). It called for some quite radical reforms to the way that Government and public services interact with the transgender community.

Since then there has been a deafening silence from the Government, until today.

I'd love to think that this was a positive thing - "Wow, there's so much stuff here to think about, and it's so important to get it right, that we're going to need a while longer to make it all happen'.

Sadly experience leads me to believe it's more probably 'Four months down the line, and this hasn't gone away. Let's try a few more months and see if that does it'.

I stated in my post above to Donna that I have more chance of becoming the new leader of the conservative's than Boris.

They put Boris ahead in the polls and favourite in the bookmakers. Pre EU Referendum the polls said remain will win and , the bookmakers said remain would win. Who makes money out of predicting things wrong? The bookmakers and the Government leaders. I still very much doubt Boris has any chance of winning. Our economy will be fine if not beter in a years time. Osbourne's threat of a brexit win budget did not happen , they are all liars and tried to scare us but the public saw through that. Our pound is recovering and will continue to. This country can be great again and we do not to pay the EU to do that , in fact in the long term we will be much better off.

Simple the pound loses against other currencies, our exports become cheaper, now we will not have to pay an extra levy to the EU to import New zealand lamb, American beef, Coffee from Brazil, etc, etc. it will make purchaes more competative world wide.

What may have happened also is that the general public are not as stupid as the politicians have taken us all for & that they have had enough, voted out of the EU out of spite to show that most of these politicians are out of touch with the public. It is also possible that this referendum was the final straw also because now we should be able to have our own decisions about what matters to us in our own country. I doubt that any of the current EU countries will want to stop trading with us as we are a main importer as we do not have anything to export left... It was a shock (NOT !!!) to see that the pre-vote exchange rates have returned from the inital slump after the leave victory. The thing is here I very much doubt that any of us will know what will happen by the time we have left the EU dependant on how long it takes to exit.

Hi Donna. Firstly my vote was based on my personal opinions of how the EU has stuck it's nose into just about everything it can concerning the UK. I should have not used the letters UK because we have not been a United Kingdom for some time now. Remember it was Scotland that wanted to break away from the UK so I put it to you and anyone else that it was them who started this. I wonder if Scotland had not wanted to break away from us would the EU referendum even had happend? It was them who put ideas into other peoples heads.

I have not done the maths but if the EU referendum had been for England alone the out vote would have been higher , I actually think a lot higher and has anyone stopped to think about that?.

I have no clue how old you are as I have not looked at your profile but I can remember the days before the UK joined the EU and life was much better then. What right has the EU got to impose a 5% tax on every energy bill in this country? That includes yours , it is putting businesses out of business not in. It may sound crazy but why can I not buy a can of fly killer that actually kills flies? Because the EU says so because according to them it harms the bee's , I do not want to spray my bloody garden with the stuff just the occasional fly that comes through my window into my home. Last year they then started saying we cannot have powerful vacuum cleaners and then they done the same with hair dryers. Those are just a few out of thousands of silly rules they make up and who benefits? Them.

As for Boris becoming Prime Minister? Go put a bet on me getting the job because it is more likely.

What you and everyone else in this country (and world) are witnessing is a new start. Yes the political parties are falling apart and they will be put back together with better leaders giving us a better choice, they know the British people now and know what they want. The goverment and all MP's have all had the biggest smack around the head for decades , now they will wake up and listen , if that means fresh people and even some younger people that can only be a good thing.

Most of you long term members know my education ended when I was 12 years old so that makes me as thick as sh*t but I know right from wrong. I did not listen to either sides lies in the debates I made my decision on what I already knew. I made my decision on what it was like before and what it is in the EU. I made my decision on the belief that if this country stayed in the EU we would eventually be dragged down with them when they go down "when" not if because it will happen.

I may be thick as far as education goes but I look at things from all sides. My vote was not a selfish one it was for a better future for the next generation. My vote will not make me better off but look back on this in 5 years , maybe sooner and tell me I was wrong.

Again , Scotland started this lets have a referendum idea and theirs failed and now they say this one failed so they now want another one. Scotland is a lovely place but they can't have a referendum everytime things do not go their way , people will get sick of it. If they have another one which looks likely that will be a hat trick and all own goals , good luck to them.

Hi Julia, The obvious major problem with the OUT vote is that its outcome denies the country of the "good solid government and leader" you speak of.The Referendum was legitimately hijacked [Trojan Horse style]by a unification of politically dissassociated people who wanted to register genuine concerns aswell as less genuine considered views and gut feeling.A mish mash of different political agendas and fringe interests unified by a single question "imposed on us".Potentially the out vote may well result in the imposition of Boris Johnson as Prime Minister.Personally I dont like the idea of BOJO "imposed on us".

Many of the Servants of our political and economic systems which man the Bilge pumps , seem to be jumping ship .afterall who wants to drown.Its a fresh start ,swim for your life .Sounds desperate.-Tragically many migrants have faced true desperation though.On a relative Scale the UK should not have been diverted by this short sighted political ineptness overEU.Afterall we do infact have a lot of control over our lives RELATIVE to many other countries in which the level of poltical imposition is far more extreme.

Consider how the country would vote in a general election now,? Looks like the politicians have truly failed in giving the public no choice in who runs the country now.

We may well deserve better as you say,but the sights should now be set on getting a basic stable Government that can work in Europe,.Anyone who voted leave implicitly voted for the current destabilization and aftermath of Division including the break up of the UK.

Personally I believe the referendum was uneccesary ,and Toxic from the onset in that it would cause a weak unstable UK government.The Issues of Immigration,economic stability Health and social resources are not going to go away or be fudged.We need a Stabel Government in place to deal with these right NOW.

I need to edit this and here is why. I started to type this and my phone went so I answered it. I came back to finish my post not knowing Crissie had responded above.

In my opinion it is going to be a fresh start for the UK. The markets will recover and the UK is a strong nation , the people have spoken because we have had enough of the EU and it's laws and rules "Imposed on us".

This could be the start of the end of the EU though , other countries within the EU will see that when the initial shock is over they can follow and do the same. It is a sinking ship and is getting worse and we just saw sense and jumped into the life boat before the ship sinks. The Great in Great Britian is what we are taking back. Now we need a good solid government and leader who understands that we had enough of obeying orders from Brussels and we make our own laws and rules.Of course the laws are not perfect but there is no reason why they cannot be changed or updated. We still have laws dating back to the 14th century and new people coming into the law profession with a passion for change for the better need to have their voices heard and I doubt Brussels is bothered. I voted out because I believe we deserve better.

I see major problems, with border control, if Scotland joins the EU alone, will England have to then control the borders between Scotland and England, EU migrant workers can then legitamately travel to Scotland, how will the English side control the travel from the South coast to the North? The same applies to some extent, the unregulated border between The Republic of Ireland and the North. What will happen if Scotland opts into the Euro currency?

To be honest, I was 50 - 50 Stay or leave, but my thoughts were more about more control of our own laws and rights as a nation, the pedantic attitude of other member states, rules and laws that gave criminals more rights than the aggrieved. It's reported that Cameron was astute and not forgetting he introduced the same sex marriage laws, (not to be confused with civil partnership) BUT when one reads the exceptions and limitations the law is unworkable, anyone who belongs to a church can lodge a form of veto to prevent the use of a church for same sex marriage, based on religous grounds, more ill thought out and useless laws. It's only when one sits down and examines all the real issues that one realises the implications, ramifications of the out vote. I have ust spent 4 years studying law, my aim was to use the laws that were applicable to the transgendered, the basis of the EHRC, will that now be a waste of time, when Boris comes up with more of the same crap who do we appeal to?

It may well be, Gracie. Folks in Northern Ireland are not happy, and as for Scotland. They as a nation has been denied the political future that the VAST majority wanted. Even London and around had the sense to vote remain. Well, good luck to those who voted out!

The UK is out of the EU, Cameron chanced his arm and lost! Personally the man was nieve, conceited, imoral and The Arrogant Etonian, failed us, like Margaret Thatcher, sold of our national assets, privatised the only profitable parts of the NHS and other national interest to favour the few rich and powerful, forsaking the ordinary tax payers, his private view that we were phlebs, a common word bandied about by his cronies. He went to Brussels, making demands, was prepared to settle for half a cake, came back with a few crumbs thinking he could keep the majority of perceived stupid and ignorant Brits happy.

Scotland which has it's own parliament, voted strongly in favour of remain. they will call for their right to have a referendum to rejoin as a seperate entity, Wales voted to exit, but per capita head they reciever more in subsidies from the EU.

As far as border controls go and imigration, France well move the border control out of Calaise and demand the border now begins at Dover and the south coast, allowing the imigrants to flood over the chanel, getting rid of what they now see as our problem, so we will end up with hundreds of thousands of none europeans in camps in Kent, remember the majority of these are not skilled, not coming here to work, they come for a better life, free health services and monetary support. Those that do want to work are not allowed to, that may change, but in the main they will not be able to speak enough english to make any valid contribution, will be a drain on resources.

Was the majority vote more about the ineptness, disreagard for what the nation needed, wanted and the avarice of Cameron and his cronies rather than a basic hatred of the the EU.

Call me cynical but I doubt whether the UK will have a choice either way as it will decided within the halls of Government and some 'corridor diplomacy' with other heads of state, all mixed up with a few financial incentives.

Thank you for your response Mary. I have just as much trouble trying to figure out your politics aswell as our government. Now so many people have migrated here we are not isolated we are just bloody full.

It costs the UK about 118 Billion GBP per year to be a part of the EU. That does not include things like health tourists who come here for free health care or the benefits they claim once they are here.

At present our government is cutting vital services to some of the most needy people in our society. They are cutting the police force and fire services to the bones , just the 18 billion out of the 118 billion would cover all of those cuts and they would still have some spare change to build a few new hospitals. It is estimated that at the current rate of people moving into London that in just 10 years time people will be standing on each others heads as there will be no room to move.

As for us not being invaded during WW11? Well it is happening right now and has been since our borders were opened because of EU rules.

Julia nice topic. Here in the US we've got some people who want to divide the country, or state or even just to away with the central government. Being a borderline history nut, I can understand the European countries getting together to try to stop what happened during WW II. The UK or GB was bombed and cut off by the Nazis but never invaded. (that's overlooking the US troops) UK joined the EU why? Probably economics, probably to keep from being isolated. The question now would be - how much has the UK invested in the EU? Would quitting the EU effect the economy? IMHO the population will shift back to the European countries when there are no more jobs or wellfare money. hugs

I can think of some good reasons to leave but I am having trouble trying to find reasons to stay. I have asked a few business men and women and they are saying the same. The way I think of what Europe thinks of the UK is a silly thing called The Eurovision Song Contest. We pay (The UK) the largest amount to put the contest on yet it does not matter how good the song is we always come bottom. Adele is British and has sold millions of records in Europe and the world but even if she was performing for the UK we would still come bottom. It is not about the singer or the song Europe just hates us.

Brussels tells us what to do and it costs us billions for the privilege , those billions could be better spent sorting our country out and having control of our borders would not be a bad thing , we are full and have not got the infrastucture to cope with anymore migrants (That is not racist it is realism).

This tiny island we live in can survive without being a part of an organisation that is basically falling apart and has been for years. I know where my vote is going , any thoughts anyone?.

I can certainly see the whole of Europe being affected by this crisis. It's a worrying trend. I personally like Europe with it's open borders and shared currency as, if like me, you cross borders very regularly, it makes things much easier but now it looks as if the price for keeping them open is too high and European states are becoming more secular. Such a pity, but understandable.

One can only wonder how the Trump steamroller will end. The warning signs are there.

Recently I was in a Queue in the Bank,in front on me was this guy late 50s shaven head, British bulldog talking to his mate loudly ."You know if we dont leave the EU with this vote ,then thats it I am off out of this country.I ve had enough .Theres too many immigrants". Everyone in the bank can here this can .I guess I could point out to this guy might well be seen as an immigrant if he does leave.However I kept quiet,afterall I am 6ft tall, and really dont want to draw any attention to myself as a Transgender person if theres a strong chance of being seen as a target for very opionated vocal people.Unfortunately some people vote in a non rational way ,sometimes voting to spite their face, or voting with fear, voting just to be against something.

In the Uk I think we have a very toxic mix problem with the EU referendum,in that an unsustainable alliance of those with prejudice ,the apathetic,little Britain pride party,and those who have a legitimate well thought reason for voting for the country to leave may win the Vote.I deliberately say UNSUSTAINABLE, because after a decision has been made an action has to be made to implement.This cannot happen when people vote for the same thing but have very widely differing reasons and views, because their differing views surface after.

dare i say it, but in the US Donald Trump seems to be pulling an unlikely mix of people that could prove equally toxic and powerful if this results in democracy handing a mandate to a megalomaniac .

A lot iof progress has been made in the last 55 years ,not perfect ,but I like to think theres a significant amouint of people identifying with common shared human problems.

With the current influx of immigrants to Europe there has been a rise in right wing political groups all across the EU. I don't think this comes as any surprise as citizens are beginning to say 'enough is enough' and are becoming fed up of further immigrantion, which has to be paid for by themselves as taxpayers. They would rather see the money spent elsewhere.

Europe isn't inherently racist and is used to seeing other nations cross their borders, indeed, it make sa lot of tourist revenue from this, but it is fed up with too many foriegners settling in their respective countries with no intent to integrate but with every intention to get whatever they can from the welfare system. Germany, where I live, is still shaking it's collective head in Angela Merkels intention to allow 1, 000,000 immigrants in, in spite of having 2,5 million Germans unemployed. There is concern over where they will live, how will they work, (Immigrants have to hold a language fluency certificate before they can work), how they will integrate, and the biggest concern, bringing their culture with them resulting in the islamification of Germany (and the West). This is a huge concern to many and is, at least in part, responsible for the rise of the right wing parties.

The concern is how this will end. It has already begun to turn nasty and is causiing some politicians to rethink their support for immigration. The problem for them, and for the man in the street, is that by objecting to immigration and it's impact leaves one open to being called a racist. No doubt, some oppositionists to immigration are racist but for others, they are simply holding on to their national identity and way of life.