Is that your conscience talking? Or your subconscious? Or you, just typing words to see if they feel right? Are you satisfied with your answer?

I'm extremely satisfied with the answer that Wheels gave, because the problem-solving ability of the unconscious mind is truly amazing. I use it Myself regularly, and so can anyone else.

This is how you do it: Think about a problem you want to solve, or a goal you want to accomplish, and represent it to yourself in straightforward, positive language. In fact, it helps if you write some preliminary notes, then rewrite them to remove all negatives. (For example, write "eat healthy food" rather than "don't eat junk food.") The more sensory details (colour, size, texture, sound, smell, taste), the better.

Read it to yourself, and mean it. This works especially well if you're passionate about your goal.

Now, put away your notes and go off and do something else. Your mind now has standing orders to notify you if it sees the thing you want, or something that might lead to what you want. Essentially what you've done is turned confirmation bias to your advantage by harnessing and directing the brain's pattern recognition power.

I see how this is working now. The process described above doesn't need there to be a god at all - only a person. This is how it works. If one spends time, in quietness, thinking hard about something and really wanting to hear something, eventually the subconscious will start to oblige. Over a period of what we might call training, the mind starts to respond by popping ideas or answers into the conscious mind. Once that starts to happen, the person thinks they have heard god but they, in fact, only heard their own subconscious mind. Get going with this prayer, study the Catholic doctrine and many people will sincerely believe that they have heard god, Jesus or Mary speak to them. It is just mind training that is going on - nothing else.

Is that your conscience talking? Or your subconscious? Or you, just typing words to see if they feel right? Are you satisfied with your answer?

I don't think you know much about psychology, Luk, Most of what we decide to do is actually decided in the subconscious mind and the conscious mind then comes up with reasons why we make our choices. The subconscious is a very powerful part of our mind and can generate all sorts of things. hearing voice in the head, for example, a symptom of some mental illnesses, is more common in perfectly well than people think. If you think you are hearing the voice of god in your head, it is more than likely you are hearing your subconscious talking to you.

That being the case, we are left with the problem of deciding if this god is in your head only or has a real external existence. We seem to have no way of knowing that, which is really what this thread is all about. We have lots of people who claim to know god, hear his voices etc. but everything is completely personal and no one can provide any evidence to suggest that this is other than a 'god-in-the-head' sort.

Discussions of Anselm's ontological argument have shown that, whilst Anselm agrees with the 'god-in-the-head' I think it has been shown that a jump from the 'god-in-the-head' to a real existing god is a jump too far without evidence and that evidence cannot be testimonies as these could still be 'god-in-the-head' testimonies. Neither can it be supposed miracle cures as no way has been established to show that there has been divine intervention - only that we cannot say what caused the supposed cure. Also we cannot get any replication of cures - for example praying for ill people results in the expected rate of people recovering as a result of natural effects. If there was a change in the rate of people recovering due to prayer we could start to conclude that there might be divine intervention but that is not the case.

So how can you show that what you claim as your god is more that a 'god-in-the-head'?

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

I understand the words in your question but am having trouble grasping the type of response you are looking for. How would that look like? In Christianity is the word of Jesus spread around the world. Jesus was a living physical being located in one place, right? Maybe you are asking for historical evidence of God "talking" to humans? Like in the old testament?

The word you used was "present" himself to humans. Not sure if you find a distinction between "present" and "talking".

You have stated in post #732 that "He can present himself to those who don't know him."

Unless you can provide historical evidence to the contrary, it has been and continues to be my stance that nowhere, at no time on the planet has knowledge of the Christian God (or Jesus) appeared outside of the geographical area where the Judeo-Christian religions are known to have originated from without the aid of outside influences (i.e. missionaries or other travelers).

In other words, if your concept of "God" can present himself (not "forcing" them to accept him, just "presenting") to those who don't know him, why did he leave the job to missionaries of spreading his existence and his message to other tribes, civilizations and even entire continents full of humans outside of Judeo-Christian "ground zero"?

I can think of three possible answers.

1) Playing Devil's Advocate and assuming your concept of "God" exists, he could, but choose not to "present" himself to other human beings around the world, condemning countless numbers of individuals to live and die without knowledge of his (and Jesus's) existence and message until the arrival of missionaries X amount of years later.

2) He did "present" himself to other human beings around the world, but apparently no one had chosen to accept him as there is no historical evidence to show the worship of your concept of "God" or adherence to the Christian faith spontaneously appearing anywhere else in the world outside of the Judeo-Christian "ground zero" without the aid of missionaries X amount of years later.

3) Your concept of "God" (or any other version of "God") does not exist (as a separate entity outside of the human brain).

I can safely assume you will not choose choice 3, which choice do you believe is accurate?

« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 09:52:44 AM by Disciple of Sagan »

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The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

1) god will not violate anyone's free will, even if the person is doing horrible things to others (as per Lukvance in numerous posts)

2) god will not appear to anyone who does not already want to know about him (as per #1 above)

3) god will not appear to anyone who is full of sin (as per Lukvance)

4) pay no attention to the many times 1, 2 and 3 are contradicted in the OT, because those are all myths and parables.

In addition, 5) god does not physically manifest in the world, but only acts indirectly through other people who already accept god.[1]

Lukvance, what about Saul/Paul? His conversion is pretty much the basis of the Catholic faith.

Saul got a sure-fire direct, physical visit from god that knocked him onto his a$$ and changed his entire life around. This story is about the most blatant violation of #1 imaginable. It is from the NT, ie is not a myth and does not conflict with #4. Saul was a sinner who persecuted the followers of Jesus, which would definitely fit #3. Given #3, Saul would definitely not want to know about god, so that takes care of #2.

So, Lukvance, did god violate Saul's free will or not? Yes or no?

Before you answer, consider carefully what answering means:Yes means you have to take back nearly everything you have said here. No means you have just contradicted everything you have said here.

So, which is it?

If you try to weasel out of answering by making something up that is not in the bible story-- say that Saul secretly did want to know god, and was only persecuting Christian people as a cover story-- Jesus will weep for you soul.

Is that your conscience talking? Or your subconscious? Or you, just typing words to see if they feel right? Are you satisfied with your answer?

I'm extremely satisfied with the answer that Wheels gave, because the problem-solving ability of the unconscious mind is truly amazing. I use it Myself regularly, and so can anyone else.

This is how you do it: Think about a problem you want to solve, or a goal you want to accomplish, and represent it to yourself in straightforward, positive language. In fact, it helps if you write some preliminary notes, then rewrite them to remove all negatives. (For example, write "eat healthy food" rather than "don't eat junk food.") The more sensory details (colour, size, texture, sound, smell, taste), the better.

Read it to yourself, and mean it. This works especially well if you're passionate about your goal.

Now, put away your notes and go off and do something else. Your mind now has standing orders to notify you if it sees the thing you want, or something that might lead to what you want. Essentially what you've done is turned confirmation bias to your advantage by harnessing and directing the brain's pattern recognition power.

That being the case, we are left with the problem of deciding if this god is in your head only or has a real external existence. We seem to have no way of knowing that, which is really what this thread is all about. We have lots of people who claim to know god, hear his voices etc. but everything is completely personal and no one can provide any evidence to suggest that this is other than a 'god-in-the-head' sort.

You are wrong. There are evidences. And this thread is not about the external existence of God. This Thread is!Here is the problem. You are looking for evidence and you don't know what kind of evidence you are looking for. All you can do is refuse the evidence that is presented to you. To help you understand your problem, try to find the kind of evidence that someone had to present you before you believed that any emotion existed. Then tell me (in that thread to keep this one on subject). I will try to present you with an equivalent evidence.

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Discussions of Anselm's ontological argument have shown that, whilst Anselm agrees with the 'god-in-the-head' I think it has been shown that a jump from the 'god-in-the-head' to a real existing god is a jump too far without evidence and that evidence cannot be testimonies as these could still be 'god-in-the-head' testimonies. Neither can it be supposed miracle cures as no way has been established to show that there has been divine intervention - only that we cannot say what caused the supposed cure. Also we cannot get any replication of cures - for example praying for ill people results in the expected rate of people recovering as a result of natural effects. If there was a change in the rate of people recovering due to prayer we could start to conclude that there might be divine intervention but that is not the case. So how can you show that what you claim as your god is more that a 'god-in-the-head'?

This is off topic. Please move your attention to the thread cited above.

The word you used was "present" himself to humans. Not sure if you find a distinction between "present" and "talking".You have stated in post #732 that "He can present himself to those who don't know him." Unless you can provide historical evidence to the contrary, it has been and continues to be my stance that nowhere, at no time on the planet has knowledge of the Christian God (or Jesus) appeared outside of the geographical area where the Judeo-Christian religions are known to have originated from without the aid of outside influences (i.e. missionaries or other travelers).

All religions beside the Abraham one, started around the world started outside the area you ask about. I believe there are plenty records of those religion. God presented himself to each of these religion.

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In other words, if your concept of "God" can present himself (not "forcing" them to accept him, just "presenting") to those who don't know him, why did he leave the job to missionaries of spreading his existence and his message to other tribes, civilizations and even entire continents full of humans outside of Judeo-Christian "ground zero"?

God send Jesus to earth to explain once and for all his message. That is why there are no more prophets and that all new religion born after Christ are not from God. I think, in lemon terms that God realized that human did not understand his message correctly when he addressed them directly. So he send his son to explain it to us. Still people had trouble understanding the message even if it was presented in their language and by a physical being so he ask them to write it down. And that is how the gospels came to be.

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I can think of three possible answers.

You could have wait for mine instead of guessing

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1) Playing Devil's Advocate and assuming your concept of "God" exists, he could, but choose not to "present" himself to other human beings around the world, condemning countless numbers of individuals to live and die without knowledge of his (and Jesus's) existence and message until the arrival of missionaries X amount of years later.

Wrong.

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2) He did "present" himself to other human beings around the world, but apparently no one had chosen to accept him as there is no historical evidence to show the worship of your concept of "God" or adherence to the Christian faith spontaneously appearing anywhere else in the world outside of the Judeo-Christian "ground zero" without the aid of missionaries X amount of years later.

Wrong again.

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3) Your concept of "God" (or any other version of "God") does not exist (as a separate entity outside of the human brain).

You keep changing the rules/back-peddling. You are making excuses for your god's complete lack of action.

Let me put them back to back. HE WON'T FORCE THEM TO ACCEPT HIM/SEE HIM, they can accept or refuse him. God is still waiting for you (mister x) to accept him. that's why YOU (mister y) DON'T SEE GOD, BECAUSE OF YOUR CHOICE/your free will (of not seeing him).Yep, it make sense. Nothing contradicting here. I still don't see what is the rule I changed. Or any kind of back-peddling. And the third one "you would need to confess first." is addressed to eh! in response to his two-faced comment. If you bring it out of context of course it loses meaning.Well...better luck next time? Or are you ready to apologize?

And Lukvance skillfully avoids addressing points that contradict him. Like this:1) god will not violate anyone's free will, even if the person is doing horrible things to others (as per Lukvance in numerous posts)2) god will not appear to anyone who does not already want to know about him (as per #1 above)3) god will not appear to anyone who is full of sin (as per Lukvance)4) pay no attention to the many times 1, 2 and 3 are contradicted in the OT, because those are all myths and parables.In addition, 5) god does not physically manifest in the world, but only acts indirectly through other people who already accept god.[1]

How that accounts for stuff like earthquakes is still not clear. How does god use people to cause earthquakes?

We could have continued the discussion about God hiding or not without this....waste of time. If you want to know about earthquakes ask about earthquakes (in the appropriate thread would be great)

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Lukvance, what about Saul/Paul? His conversion is pretty much the basis of the Catholic faith. Saul got a sure-fire direct, physical visit from god that knocked him onto his a$$ and changed his entire life around.

You mean the miracle that Saul witnessed? You want to know if there have been other miracle like this one where people gain faith right after an act of God? The answer is yes.

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This story is about the most blatant violation of #1 imaginable.

You are wrong. Are you telling us that you know he did not want to meet God on that road that day? You knew him that well!?

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It is from the NT, ie is not a myth and does not conflict with #4.

I agree.

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Saul was a sinner who persecuted the followers of Jesus, which would definitely fit #3.

You are wrong. 3 is taken out of context (look my answer to jtk73 about that)

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Saul would definitely not want to know about god, so that takes care of #2.

You are wrong. Even evil doers are looking for God. Saul is the perfect example of that.

I remember posting here that God was everywhere. So he is not hiding.I posted the famous phrase "You can see him around" that made some of you (understandably) jump.The main idea was that God's representations and God's believers are present in your life even if you don't want him to be. There are people who "knows" him more than you and you can ask about God. He is not hiding from you. If you are looking for him he is right there.I remember my question was "Before you say that he is hiding, what would you think it would look like him not hiding? How would it be different than now?"

Lukvance, why did god never show up to the Atheists here when most were devout believers? Why? They prayer, went to church, did good, help others, etc. So, why did your god, assuming he exists, did he not show up then?

Why would they deconvert if god HAD showed up to them?

And what about me? I use to be a devout Sikh and pray to god. Why did he not show up?

Simple answer: Neither, nor any other, exist.

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Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

Let me guess what the response from theists will be: Sikhs pray to the wrong god. That is why the god you prayed to never showed up. Although he appears to show up to other Sikhs when they pray to him....just not to you.

Makes no sense.

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Lukvance, why did god never show up to the Atheists here when most were devout believers? Why? They prayer, went to church, did good, help others, etc. So, why did your god, assuming he exists, did he not show up then?

Why would they deconvert if god HAD showed up to them?

And what about me? I use to be a devout Sikh and pray to god. Why did he not show up?

Simple answer: Neither, nor any other, exist.

I don't know about the other. I know why I didn't see him before. How do you expect him to "show"?

Lukvance, why did god never show up to the Atheists here when most were devout believers? Why? They prayer, went to church, did good, help others, etc. So, why did your god, assuming he exists, did he not show up then?

Why would they deconvert if god HAD showed up to them?

And what about me? I use to be a devout Sikh and pray to god. Why did he not show up?

Simple answer: Neither, nor any other, exist.

I don't know about the other. I know why I didn't see him before. How do you expect him to "show"?

Like he showed up, allegedly, to the Shep Herding people of the old age.

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Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

Like he showed up, allegedly, to the Shep Herding people of the old age.

How do you think he showed himself to them? Why do you think it was like that? If you don't believe it happened, how do you expect him to "show himself" to you today?

*I* don't think he showed up to anyone, because he's not real. I'm asking *you*; why did he not show up, in whatever form he showed up in the old ages that would establish a solid connection between him and people?

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Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

*I* don't think he showed up to anyone, because he's not real. I'm asking *you*; why did he not show up, in whatever form he showed up in the old ages that would establish a solid connection between him and people?

Maybe he showed himself and you didn't see him because you didn't know what you were looking for?What are you looking for?

*I* don't think he showed up to anyone, because he's not real. I'm asking *you*; why did he not show up, in whatever form he showed up in the old ages that would establish a solid connection between him and people?

Maybe he showed himself and you didn't see him because you didn't know what you were looking for?What are you looking for?

"Are"? A good college. I'm not, however, looking for something that doesn't exist.

No, no god showed up. Not to me, not to anybody. How do YOU know that it is god?

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Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

Luk...have you really not been reading, or comprehending the number of times people have told you how either they or someone close to them lost faith which they were desperately trying to hold onto because it finally dawned on them that they were getting no answers? I would guess that a majority of atheists out there were believers at some point, and of those, certainly a hefty percentage fought against their failing faith. They WERE looking...they WERE listening. And got nothing but silence in return. Do you really think you can delve into their minds to ascertain that, somehow, they were actually closing themselves off despite their prayers to the contrary?

Luk...have you really not been reading, or comprehending the number of times people have told you how either they or someone close to them lost faith which they were desperately trying to hold onto because it finally dawned on them that they were getting no answers? I would guess that a majority of atheists out there were believers at some point, and of those, certainly a hefty percentage fought against their failing faith. They WERE looking...they WERE listening. And got nothing but silence in return. Do you really think you can delve into their minds to ascertain that, somehow, they were actually closing themselves off despite their prayers to the contrary?

Not at all Jynnan. I don't delve into their minds. I was answering to defiance (who expressed his mind). I wasn't talking to ALL HUMAN BEINGS ON EARTH.Were you looking for God?What were you expecting to "see"?

Luk...have you really not been reading, or comprehending the number of times people have told you how either they or someone close to them lost faith which they were desperately trying to hold onto because it finally dawned on them that they were getting no answers? I would guess that a majority of atheists out there were believers at some point, and of those, certainly a hefty percentage fought against their failing faith. They WERE looking...they WERE listening. And got nothing but silence in return. Do you really think you can delve into their minds to ascertain that, somehow, they were actually closing themselves off despite their prayers to the contrary?

Not at all Jynnan. I don't delve into their minds. I was answering to defiance (who expressed his mind). I wasn't talking to ALL HUMAN BEINGS ON EARTH.Were you looking for God?What were you expecting to "see"?

I, personally? I grew up pretty skeptical of the whole god thing despite being raised in a fairly religious Catholic family. It didn't really make a great deal of sense to me from about as far back as I can remember, but I did go through a couple of periods of "searching" in my mid-20s to early 30s, and, a couple of times almost felt as though there was some sort of "connection" going on. But it wasn't anything strong enough to make much of an impression, and, for that matter, was eerily reminiscent of feelings I'd been prone to since quite an early age when in the throes of an obsession with some unattainable idol or another except for being far less intense and far more fleeting. In other words, I recognized the feeling very well, but god's voice was apparently no match for teenage hormones.

Anyway, the point is that whether or not I threw my whole being into listening for his voice or not, I did go through a phase of being open to it, and experienced nothing out of the ordinary. And I have heard the stories of quite a number of people who dug far deeper than I did in search of a sign with no tangible response. So I have to ask, why is it, if god is, indeed wanting to make himself known to people who are searching (albeit in various levels of intensity) that his message is so frequently passed over with no recognition. It's not as though all these people are secretly denying him. Some, as I have said, are literally desperate for a sign, but ultimately find themselves unable to maintain a belief in a deity which seems not to have any intention of giving them something to hold onto.

I, personally? I grew up pretty skeptical of the whole god thing despite being raised in a fairly religious Catholic family. It didn't really make a great deal of sense to me from about as far back as I can remember, but I did go through a couple of periods of "searching" in my mid-20s to early 30s, and, a couple of times almost felt as though there was some sort of "connection" going on. But it wasn't anything strong enough to make much of an impression, and, for that matter, was eerily reminiscent of feelings I'd been prone to since quite an early age when in the throes of an obsession with some unattainable idol or another except for being far less intense and far more fleeting. In other words, I recognized the feeling very well, but god's voice was apparently no match for teenage hormones.

Anyway, the point is that whether or not I threw my whole being into listening for his voice or not, I did go through a phase of being open to it, and experienced nothing out of the ordinary. And I have heard the stories of quite a number of people who dug far deeper than I did in search of a sign with no tangible response. So I have to ask, why is it, if god is, indeed wanting to make himself known to people who are searching (albeit in various levels of intensity) that his message is so frequently passed over with no recognition. It's not as though all these people are secretly denying him. Some, as I have said, are literally desperate for a sign, but ultimately find themselves unable to maintain a belief in a deity which seems not to have any intention of giving them something to hold onto.

As I am trying to explain to you and defiance. It is not that it's God who is hiding, It's you who doesn't know what to look for. Once you know what you are looking for (and your conscience told you it wasn't too much to ask) I will be easier to "find" God. Unfortunately for you, my experience didn't involve me particularly looking for him. I understand that people are looking without finding and that people are finding with just faith. There are also people like mother theresa who lives for christ without ever talking to him.

As I am trying to explain to you and defiance. It is not that it's God who is hiding, It's you who doesn't know what to look for. Once you know what you are looking for (and your conscience told you it wasn't too much to ask) I will be easier to "find" God. Unfortunately for you, my experience didn't involve me particularly looking for him. I understand that people are looking without finding and that people are finding with just faith. There are also people like mother theresa who lives for christ without ever talking to him.

The post may have disappeared in the outage, but I recall saying that you should probably study this Mother Teresa character a bit more before you trot her out as some paragon of compassion and belief.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

We also get examples of people who say they did not believe in god, and were not even looking for god, but found him. They were doing all kinds of sinning. Busy running gangs, drug dealing and using, killing, thieving, fooling around, etc. Not praying to god at all. No sincerity in their hearts or whatever we are supposed to have.

And then god just came to them and turned their life around. A miracle, like Saul/Paul in the bible.

Other people pray and pray for god to show himself and get nothing. No nice feeling. No miracle. No sign at all. There are pastors, priests and nuns who are desperately trying to believe but still lose their faith and become atheists. Some remain pastors, priests and nuns even after they stop believing in god! Mother Teresa seemingly got zilch from god, yet spent her life doing what she thought god wanted (making people suffer for their sins...). She was basically an atheist-- most famous nun ever.

Still other people don't pray and don't care and have perfectly nice lives without even thinking about god. Busy raising their families, helping their communities, not in gangs, no drug dealing or using, no killing, no thieving, no fooling around, etc. No need to see god at all. And no message or sign from god.

So, no, it is not clear at all what you have to do to see god or get a real message from god. Some sincerely pray and get a message from god. Other people sincerely pray and want to see god but don't get anything. And some people who are not looking and don't care at all about god get miracles. Lots of people don't look for god, get nothing, and don't care.

What is clear is this: if there is a god, he decides. He chooses who will believe in him and who will not. If he wants someone to believe, he knows what to do.

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?