Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of it's wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. Every crazy, weird and wacky quote is straight from the pens of Armstrongite leaders or members who think they possess some insight into God and the Bible. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!

Thursday, December 10, 2015

Living Church of God: Gerald Weston the New Dictator in Chief

Recently the Living Church of God held one of their Council of Elders meetings. During this meeting it was revealed that the ultra conservative Gerald Weston would be taking over the reigns of the church at the death of Rod Meredith. Many were shocked at this prospect considering it has always been assumed Richard Ames was the heir apparent. With the declining health of Ames, this is no longer a possibility. Younger meat is necessary, though it is still aged too.

Weston has a long history of tyrannical leadership where he has left a trail of abused members in every single church he has ever pastored. Even with LCG’s history of being filled with abusive pastors, Weston stands out above them all. It is expected by many that once he is in power the reigns of conservatism will be tightened even further.

Rod Meredith apparently is still trying to figure out how to tell his membership what he has wrought upon them. As if right now only COE members know, the laity still in the dark.

Weston has already begun to look for a home in Charlotte and is expected to move to North Carolina some time next August.

Meredith and Ames will stay on at LCG but in a smaller capacity. They will likely come to the office for a few hours a day and focus primarily on writing articles.

This change in leadership in combination with major financial problems and a growing number of discontented members should be interesting to watch.

109 comments:

Anonymous
said...

You can be sure that the leaders of the other COG's are looking forward to a split in the LCG so they can reap a harvest of new members. I think not. If there is a split in the LCG some may go with any new church that may be formed some will stay with LCG and some will be so discussed that they will leave armstrongism altogether leaving very few for the other splinters to snatch-up.

This article, as he mentions, came out of a "sermon" he gave which began with a Bible trivia quiz. (He didn't call it trivia, but . . . .) You guessed it. The scores weren't great (very few, adult or child, got them all correct). The remainder of the sermon time was a harangue at everyone about their ignorance (compared to him, one supposes), but against parents in particular, about how they weren't doing the job of teaching their child the truth they had found.

Here's what being in the Armstrongist realm could bring to you -- a "worship service" from which you emerge embarrassed instead of uplifted. Just what they need. Just what they've been having all along.

My understanding is that Weston is going to start taking over BEFORE the death of Spanky.

Weston gave the sermon when he was in Charlotte for the last COE meeting. It was abysmal.

He is right on board with the lie that LCG ministers need to be blindly obeyed because they have a special, closer relationship with Christ. He demands unquestioning loyalty and obedience. Questioning is a sign of "lack of faith" or "insubordination" and will land a member on the trouble maker roster.

Meredith made the right decision for a successor because Weston is a hard worker and a hard liner. LCG will be more of the same (hard, unloving, accusatory, graceless, merciless, archaic, neglecting the weightier issues of the law).

True, some who have been Weston's victims in the past won't likely stay in LCG but I think overall, he is respected enough that they won't lose too many members as a result of the change.

He's certainly not nearly as bad as Roderick C. Meredith and plenty of people followed him!

What may be surprising to many, is Global (which he then transitioned to LCG after the split) wasn't an option for GW, even 2 weeks prior to him eventually going there. It was only after David Burson, the associate minister in KC, forced GW to make a decision to leave WWCG, that he even started to make any move (though it was later learned that he was looking seriously at United as it developed).

David Pack, then the all knowing guru touted by RCM, came through KC, had a meeting with both GW and DB, that a meeting was set up with RCM.

What isn't well known is that Carl McNair had given a sermon 6 months prior to this, stating that any minister joining Global, would have to sit on the sidelines for a period of time, to make sure they were not just making the move for the paycheck. This condition quickly changed after GW met with RCM, where GW told RCM he was bringing over 200 members with him.

The real surprise came when GW came back to KC that he stated in his next sermon that the group that had left WWCG, with him as the minister, was now a Global congregation. This didn't set well with many, especially those who had been told there would be more of a collegian approach to finding a "group" to go with, that many decided not to join.

When RCM and Global started having their issues before splitting away to form LCG and money became a major issue, GW was one of several that mortgaged their home to send into RCM, which probably started this trek for GW to receive favored status.

Of course, the autocratic and dictatorial manner which GW used in both WWCG and Global/LCG, also most likely appealed to RCM's approach and attitude. GW loves the whole government from the top down, so it makes sense that he would be one to continue to have an iron fist approach. The question is, how many will agree with this, especially when the politics and backstabbing begins, especially after RCM dies??

Whats wrong with these people...“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27. and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28.just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

This is funny. During the years that I was at AC, Gerald Weston worked as a student custodian. He had a diminutive sidekick, and they had the type of friendship where they joked back and forth and had their own special sayings as they went through their work hours doing their jobs.

Years later, when LaVerne and Shirley became a popular TV program, , the first time I saw Lenny and Squiggy, I immediately thought of Gerald. Lenny looked very much like him. Of course, the similarity in appearance, and the jovial nature were where the comparison ended. Gerald seemed to be fairly intelligent, and was serious about his studies. The stuff that has happened over the decades within the Armstrong movement has been so surreal, that there is no way any of us back then could have mentally fast-forwarded the tape and anticipated the current state of affairs. Who even knew that there would even be splinters, let alone the roles that some of our colleagues from AC would be taking?

My one comment on this would be that extremes generally do not have mass appeal to a broad cross section of the general population. They tend to limit growth to a small nucleus of hard core participants who often do not have the financial resources or pool of intelligence to exert major influences of any kind. If Armstrongism is to grow, the leaders need broader based-appeal towards prospective members, and better retention of existing members. Extreme conservatism, and intolerable authority would not be the best tools needed to produce growth. They aren't even effective in preserving the core. You'd think that teachers of theology would be familiar with the lessons from Rehoboam and Jereboam.

Anon (Dec. 11, 5:58 AM) and Black Ops Mikey, your info are out of date. Gerald Weston is no longer living in Canada, he lives currently in England as the European Regional Director (after Rod Kind moved back to Australia).

Back there some forty plus years ago, I never would have dreamed of what I have seen, thankfully secondhand as I soon divorced myself from the whole rotten mess. Never could stand Meredith. He is the most self-righteous SOB one could ever come across and anybody who wins his approval has to be of the same ilk. I really feel sorry for those who have remained embroiled in the whole mess all this time. Get a life, folks. Kick that particular god virus out of your lives and live for once. We humanist atheists have had a ball in the meantime with no angst or regrets.

Only the most masochistic members of LCG will be able to put up with Weston as their new Master.Weston's accession will give Dr. Doofy Doug Winnail his chance to score his own splinter.Some in LCG will gravitate to Winnail's seemingly gentle demeanor. Plus, Winnail has the clone son to pull off the father and son routine that Armstrongites favor.It will be interesting to see if Weston first strikes out at Winnail before or after RCM takes his dirt nap. An early attack on Winnail could wound Winnail's later chances of taking bigger numbers, if RCM allows Weston to go after him. If Weston waits until after RCM is gone, the Winnails will have more time to grow their dynasty and the members will then have the choice between Winnail or Weston instead of the choice of Winnail or Weston + RCM status quo. Can we start a betting pool on this?

For some quick historical background, below is a quote from page 18 of a book called Herbert Armstrong's TANGLED WEB written by David Robinson (bolding added):

------------

A rather disturbing event occurred late in the summer of 1969, just after the first men landed on the moon. Apparently, in a personal response to HWA's prophetic messages concerning 1972, a follower of HWA in Australia, Carl Rohen, took it on himself to try to burn down the El Aqsa Mosque, which is located on the site of the old Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. While damage was extensive, the mosque was not destroyed. What did result was wide news coverage.

HWA had written not long before that the Jews didn't have a day to lose in order to get their temple built to comply with his prophetic timetable. Apparently Rohen had taken him seriously in Australia and acted on what he believed to be a message from God. He would personally remove the obstacle holding up HWA's prophecy—the Arab mosque that was holding up construction of the necessary Jewish temple. This temple had to be built, according to HWA, in order to fulfill the prophecy of II Thess. Chapter 2.

The resulting threat to HWA and the Worldwide Church was immediate and serious. Official church denial of any responsibility was immediate and continuous. This denial worked. The storm blew over. Most of us at the time were unaware of the seriousness of the situation.

From that time HWA no longer preached the Jews would have to build a literal temple in order to fulfill end-time prophecy.

------------

On Thursday December 10, 2015, David C. Pack posted Special Announcement #33 about a Stunning New World to Come Broadcast Series at the website of his Restored Church of God (RCG).

Part 1 of Third Temple Foretold—Bible Prophecy! is already up, and “additional parts will appear every two weeks.”

------------

The on, and then off, rebuilding of the temple, is now on again!!! This is fascinating! It remains to be seen if this video series will turn out better than David Pack's “crucial” Friday announcement postings throughout the summer of 2013 that led up to the disappointment of August 31, 2013. You might recall (with some regret, if you handed over your house at that time) that David Pack's 24 given reasons + 32 not given reasons = 56 total reasons for why something would happen at that time were not enough to make anything actually happen. After that fiasco, David Pack did not seem to want to risk the embarrassment of openly posting the reason(s) [mainly greed] for his “restoration” of the “common” doctrine that everyone is required to turn over to him everything they own--“or no salvation if you don't.” On Monday February 2, 2015, David Pack posted three two-hour sermons, for a total of six hours of impure noise, full of 130 mind-numbing non-proofs that David Pack (rather than Herbert Armstrong) was Elijah. Some people still don't understand how all that evil noise proved any such thing. But, maybe David Pack will come up with more, and even better, reasons this time for this latest doctrinal change and prophetic guess about the rebuilding of the temple.

when dr. winnail once mentioned the word love in his weekly update it obviously sealed his fate; nevertheless it will be interesting to see how this entire scenario plays out given the implications of the snub;

i look at it as a make or break litmus test of the validity of dr. merediths style of leadership; i recently read malms article on the nicolaitans and makes me wonder if lcg is on course for some kind of correction, possibly actuated by a backlash against westons leadership style which apparently is a clone of dr. merediths?

Byker Bob said, "The stuff that has happened over the decades within the Armstrong movement has been so surreal, that there is no way any of us back then could have mentally fast-forwarded the tape and anticipated the current state of affairs. Who even knew that there would even be splinters, let alone the roles that some of our colleagues from AC would be taking? "

MY COMMENT - Byker, that is because as you know, the official "Philadelphia era" Church narrative from the mid 1950s on to the early 1970s (two 19 year time cycles from the start of "God's work" in 1934) was that the Great Tribulation would begin in 1972, and Christ would return on the Feast of Trumpets 1975. After the great disappointment and Mr. Herbert Armstrong's explanation that the true significance of the end of the second 19 year time cycle was ADVERTISING IN READER'S DIGEST MAGAZINE, the "Philadelphia era" Church narrative changed to "Time is short, there is only 3 to 5 years left" - which the idiot Meredith grabbed onto in the 1970s after the great disappointment and kept repeating this narrative even to this very day.

All of us were taught in the 1960s WCG that God would complete the work with Mr. Armstrong and that the Philadelphians would be taken to a Place of Safety (Petra) for further education, training and protection. This is straight Waterhouse 101 WCG teaching.

There was NO possibility of "fast forwarding the tape" today to the current state of affairs in the Armstrong movement BECAUSE "TODAY" WAS NEVER SUPPOSE TO COME! We were suppose to be in the Wonderful World of Tomorrow - which never came! No splinters! No HWA wannabees! No chasing a shrinking Armstrong COG income stream competing with 700+ splinter groups all of which who were once brethren together of one mind in one organization. No creepy little Joey Tkach, Jr. who changed the doctrines, shrunk the Church and stole the Church assets. Oh, that's right, the little creep Joey Tkach, jr. - he is a multi multimillionaire on the backs of tithe slaves who contributed to Mr. Armstrong's work under threat of eternal damnation. And this little punk Joey Tkach spits on the man who made him a multi millionaire. No cheating Dennis Diehl out of a retirement benefit after 28 years of service to the WCG ministering and building local congregations - his only "crime" was being honest and having the integrity of walking away from the whole damn mess. No Bob Thiel; no Dave Pack, no Gerald Flurry, no prison boy tax cheat Ron Weinland, no Un-United etc. etc.

I would only add that I have kept ALL my Sabbaths Services sermon notebooks documenting the sermons I heard from my attendance in the Radio/Worldwide Church of God (1968 to 1976). Giving credit where credit is due, in 8 years of attendance before leaving the cult in 1976, the ONLY WCG minister to publicly deviate from the official "Philadelphia era" Church narrative that I have a record of was Evangelist C. Wayne Cole at the Mount Pocono Feast of Tabernacles in 1970. Mr. Cole speculated from the pulpit - What if God gives us 40 or more years to do the Work. Who will be the leaders in the Church of God 40 years from now?"

May I suggest his one question which deviated from the official narrative posed at a FOT with 8,000 in attendance, that Mr. C. Wayne Cole had a better "prophetic track record" than HWA, GTA, Waterhouse and the idiot Rod Meredith all combined!

So Byker Bob, it has been interesting decades later to see the Armstrong Church of God movement which started in 1934, peaked at Mr. Armstrong's death in 1986, and declined dying a slow and painful death into obscurity which no one will soon remember.

My first and only encounter with Gerald Weston was at a Canadian feast site. LCG was hosting a Deacon/Elder luncheon. I had two small children at the time and they had accompanied us to the luncheon before, but I thought I would double check with GW. I introduced myself, informed him of my situation and he snapped " find a babysitter." I explained to him that I didn't know anyonewell enough to leave them with. I will never forget his response. "Fine!! You can bring them, but we are not going to pay for them!!" Needless to say we didn't attend. My only regret was I didn't verbalize my thoughts. You pompous Jackass!!

For some quick historical background, below is a quote from page 18 of a book called Herbert Armstrong's TANGLED WEB written by David Robinson (bolding added):

------------

A rather disturbing event occurred late in the summer of 1969, just after the first men landed on the moon. Apparently, in a personal response to HWA's prophetic messages concerning 1972, a follower of HWA in Australia, Carl Rohen, took it on himself to try to burn down the El Aqsa Mosque, which is located on the site of the old Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. While damage was extensive, the mosque was not destroyed. What did result was wide news coverage.

HWA had written not long before that the Jews didn't have a day to lose in order to get their temple built to comply with his prophetic timetable. Apparently Rohen had taken him seriously in Australia and acted on what he believed to be a message from God. He would personally remove the obstacle holding up HWA's prophecy—the Arab mosque that was holding up construction of the necessary Jewish temple. This temple had to be built, according to HWA, in order to fulfill the prophecy of II Thess. Chapter 2.

The resulting threat to HWA and the Worldwide Church was immediate and serious. Official church denial of any responsibility was immediate and continuous. This denial worked. The storm blew over. Most of us at the time were unaware of the seriousness of the situation.

From that time HWA no longer preached the Jews would have to build a literal temple in order to fulfill end-time prophecy.

------------

On Thursday December 10, 2015, David C. Pack posted Special Announcement #33 about a Stunning New World to Come Broadcast Series at the website of his Restored Church of God (RCG).

Part 1 of Third Temple Foretold—Bible Prophecy! is already up, and “additional parts will appear every two weeks.”

------------

The on, and then off, rebuilding of the temple, is now on again!!! This is fascinating! It remains to be seen if this video series will turn out better than David Pack's “crucial” Friday announcement postings throughout the summer of 2013 that led up to the disappointment of August 31, 2013. You might recall (with some regret, if you handed over your house at that time) that David Pack's 24 given reasons + 32 not given reasons = 56 total reasons for why something would happen at that time were not enough to make anything actually happen. After that fiasco, David Pack did not seem to want to risk the embarrassment of openly posting the reason(s) [mainly greed] for his “restoration” of the “common” doctrine that everyone is required to turn over to him everything they own--“or no salvation if you don't.” On Monday February 2, 2015, David Pack posted three two-hour sermons, for a total of six hours of impure noise, full of 130 mind-numbing non-proofs that David Pack (rather than Herbert Armstrong) was Elijah. Some people still don't understand how all that evil noise proved any such thing. But, maybe David Pack will come up with more, and even better, reasons this time for this latest doctrinal change and prophetic guess about the rebuilding of the temple.

I sort of hope that this will blow up in Gerald's face. That some sort of split would occur or that the financial situation turns grim for Lifeless Church of God.

I was in Mississauga congregation for almost eight years when he was the minister there for the majority of the time. Not only was he a yes men, who blindly obey the higher up but he has harmed a lot of brethren on a personal level. He interfere in the relationship of two younger couples simply because they are of a different skin colour. They probably would have broken up anyway given that they are young and what not but Gerald slithering snake had no right to interfere.

He removed Bob Goddard from speaking at the Kingston congregation when Charles Bryce split simply because Bob wanted to take a conciliatory approach to Charles Bryce. "Let apologize and end the word of war between us" and because of that, he removed Bob from speaking in Kingston.

Whenever there was any situation and conflict between brethren, he would always have his mind made up about the situation depending on who is involved. Those who lick the boot of the ministry were those he listened to.

When I left and wrote him an extensive e-mail, he got a lawyer to sent me a letter because I had apparently "threaten" him. I ignored it and he call the cops on me. I sent the same cop right back at him telling them to stop sending me their literatures which I had specifically requested not to be sent to me anymore.

Honestly, this guy is a complete jackass to the highest degree possible. He is cunning, manipulative and completely wicked. I don't just mean by COG standard.

He would never let anyone back who does not agree with his viewpoint. Why anyone would want to go back is beyond me.

I could write more but I will leave it at that. I feel great sorrow for those in LCG who refuse to wake up to the evil of this organization and who continues to sprout utter rubbish and nonsense such as "the government of God still stands" or "remember who the ministry represent on this earth." Oh yeah, they represent someone alright but not who they think they represent.

I hope people in Loving Camp of Gremlins(LCG)can wake up before it is too late.

I don't know who 7:19 is but because of the things that I personally suffered at the hands of LCG ministry, I believe every word of his/her story.

Unfortunately, it is standard operating procedure for dealing with anyone who dare think anything other than what they are pounding into the member's heads.

They are bullies to the 10th power.

Few I've met are more full of themselves than LCG ministers.

Many in LCG don't see this but it is only because they haven't dared to question doctrine/ "upgrades" or the abuse of other members. If you sit down and shut up you will remain out of their crosshairs in most cases.

The statement that Weston "would always have his mind made up about the situation depending on who is involved" is classic LCG discernment. They routinely don't get both sides and fairly weigh a matter. Fairness and equality really don't matter to them.

It also resonated with me that Weston would "interfere in the relationship of two younger couples simply because they are of a different skin colour". I know that most in LCG support a ban on inter-racial marriage much to the heart ache of many faithful members. Meredith decreed that the children of such a marriage would be "blobs" with no real identity after all. Love doesn't matter of course.

Weston and the other ministry hirelings have really dialed up the intensity of "remember who the ministry represent on this earth" in the last few years in an effort to get members to buckle under to their will (which is not, by the way, the will of God).

A true leader leads by his example and should never have to convince people to submit to their authority. People should WANT to follow them because they exude the Fruits of the Spirit, love, peace, fairness, etc.

The leading men in LCG appear to be more carnal than your average "unconverted" citizen of the world. I have never seen such a brood of vipers.

I am eternally grateful that God rescued me from that toxic, evil environment.

Several years ago, when I was looking for a Bible-based Christian church, some of the various people I spoke with told me, "Bob, you need to discern the spirit of the church!" In other words, the first time in, when you still have a choice, still have your objectivity, if there are any red flags, or you get a bad feeling, get out immediately. Be very cautious!

The basic problem with Armstrongism is that fear of the end times, fear of what one's town, neighbors, and work place will supposedly become, fear of Germany, fear of being left behind, and fear of the Lake of Fire were the basic evangelistic tools or approach, and were then continued through the term of one's membership to keep one in compliance to the ministry. Fear does motivate, but it is a hollow motivation. What you do as a result of fear doesn't really count, because your actions and reactions are based on the desire to save your own ass. This is not transformative of the soul. Love-based actions and reactions run much deeper in the psyche.

Some of the comments by ex members above demonstrate that this rod of iron fear element that the ACOGs have seized upon, rather than other more appropriate meat of the word type scriptures, is still the dominant motivator in members' lives. People occasionally post here that there is some key difference, or element, in one or the other of the ACOG splinters (they mean the one which they attend), but these so-called differences end up being inconsequential ones, mere fluff, when you consider the really big element, which is basic method of governance. From direct testimony above, LCG is no more loving or different from PCG, or RCG. Frankly, this horrible governance even infected GCI, which is probably why the remnants of the mothership never grew or thrived any better than the larger splinters.

The bottom line is that being expelled from or disfellowshipped from any of these groups, is a favor that is being done for you. The early Christians were being expelled from the Temple. We speak of losing a few of the people we thought had been our friends, but since the Jewish lifestyle was so based on the activities of the Temple, the early Christians faced a much more harsh environment as a result of living by "the way" than anyone within the Armstrong movement ever have. And, if we believe the Bible, The Jewish system was God's established group of that day, actually Jesus' physical entry point on planet Earth.

God put me out of the church in 1990.The holy spirit told me that the 'ministers are trying to get the best positions in the kingdom by crippling the minds of church members.' I have flourished since, and don't believe I could have ever reached full adulthood by remaining in any of the churches. How can you, they treat you live a child rather than a adult. A Christian is one who follows Christ, not someone who warms a seat at a particular church.

Sadly, this site is a joke given a few prolific liars who visit here regularly. Anyone wanting to know what's really going on had better go elsewhere. I come here once every few months for a good laugh.

Well then why don't you tell us what's really going on and where to find it since you seem to know it all. I came here and found some things being said and then I checked them out and it was fact. I was very thankful I did otherwise I'd still may be in the dark, Of course not all things you read are actual facts, this is where people comment on their opinions, tell about their experience in some church, some do point out truths and facts and we check it out if we want to.

Now tell us what the lies are you talk about that you find here. This site has helped a lot of people who were or are still mixed up because of all the goings on in the so called churches of God with all self appointed dictators. You say you come here for a good laugh, if you really think it's funny that tells us a lot about you because it's really not very funny at all, and if you don't have anything to say other than your negative nonsense please just stay away, but first of all tell us as you say, what's really going on and where to find it.

"Sadly, this site is a joke given a few prolific liars who visit here regularly. Anyone wanting to know what's really going on had better go elsewhere."

Annon 6:09 is no doubt an LCG member which makes his comment all the more amusing because he is loyal to a church FOUNDED ON A LIE and lead by RCM who is the most PROLIFIC AND HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED LIAR many of us have EVER known. Meredith lies about things that aren't even a big deal. It's almost like he can't help himself. Meredith's lying problem is quite literally compulsive. Anyone who has worked at headquarters can easily verify this. He goes with the answer that he thinks members will best receive even if that requires embellishing the truth.

I have a question for annon 6:09 which I am certain he will not respond to because, to date not one LCG defender on this website has been able to respond to. They all just come on here and post that it's "all lies" bla, bla, bla but they can never answer the following question:

What on this blog is a lie?

I'm sure we will hear nothing further from our LCG defender annon because the stories revealed on this site, both by the blog host and by the commentators who have suffered at the hands of LCG ministry, are all true.

Sure, they may not match the propaganda your leaders spoon feed you but that doesn't make them any less true.

LCG is manipulating your mind to better serve themselves. Your reality is altered. I was once like you and it is nearly impossible to recognize until you are no longer in the church and the fog begins to clear and then it is plain as day.

As a Christian, you MUST search for the truth yourself. Test all things. Prove all things. TRUST IN NO MAN. You are responsible for your own salvation. LCG and Meredith will not be standing next to you on Judgement Day. Are you going to stand before God and say, "but they told me it was so"? I'm pretty sure that's not going to work for you.

6.09PM. The ministers and their boot lickers steal the talents that Christ gives to every person in the parable of the talents. The exercising of these talents is life itself, which is why they crave these talents. They are 'zombies,' who want to 'eat your brains,' meaning control your mental processes. Note how in the parable of the talents, the nobleman goes to a far country, meaning nearly non existent government, other than police and courts. In the churches, ministers follow church members like dogs, being their resident critic and judge. This is the opposite of a far off 'nobleman.' They are robbing people of their God given rights and adulthood, mis-calling it 'obedience' and 'church government.' Rather, it's robbery and murder. Why do you think all the churches hide trade, which by definition is people making their own best judgment and acting on it. Trade also means acting in your self interest rather than the interest of minister boot lickers. Daddy ministers treating church members like 10 years olds, and trade obviously don't mix. The ministers do know that Gods way is trade. They are not ignorant or deceived. When have you ever read a church article or heard a sermon on trade? Jeremiah 22 equally applies to the ministers mistreatment of church members.

Jer 22:13 Woe to him who builds his house without righteousness, and his upper rooms without justice. His neighbor serves without pay, and he does not give him for his work; Jer 22:14 who says, I will build myself a wide house and large upper rooms. And he cuts out windows for it and covers with cedar, and paints with vermilion. Jer 22:15 Do you reign because you lust to excel in cedar? Did not your father eat and drink and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well for him. Jer 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy, then it was well. Was this not to know Me, says Jehovah? Jer 22:17 But your eyes and your heart lust for nothing but your unjust gain, and to shed innocent blood, and oppression, and to do violence.

Didn't the cowboys of the late 1800s initiate duels with people who questioned their honor or called them liars?

Ah well, it doesn't even matter. The anonymous name caller makes his accusations every couple months, and never provides facts substantiating his allegations. Metaphorically speaking, we have perhaps just witnessed Herbert W. Armstrong's toilet backing up!

"Annon 6:09 is no doubt an LCG member which makes his comment all the more amusing because he is loyal to a church FOUNDED ON A LIE and lead by RCM who is the most PROLIFIC AND HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED LIAR many of us have EVER known. Meredith lies about things that aren't even a big deal. It's almost like he can't help himself. Meredith's lying problem is quite literally compulsive. Anyone who has worked at headquarters can easily verify this. He goes with the answer that he thinks members will best receive even if that requires embellishing the truth."

Second behind the Grand Liar himself. I speak, not of "Satan" who is no more than the product of a couple thousand years of legendary development, but of Herbert Armstrong, the great poo-bah of lies. But of course not many were allowed to know Herbert. Those who did, the members of his own family, don't have much good to report about him.

That Rod Meredith is a liar even when it comes to the trivial is beyond doubt. He even got sued for it by Leona McNair and WCG was ordered by the court to cough up $1.26M! Over what? Nothing that should have been a big deal. Because he chose to use her divorce as fodder to push the WCG party line, in other words Herbert's lies.

"As a Christian, you MUST search for the truth yourself. Test all things. Prove all things. TRUST IN NO MAN. You are responsible for your own salvation. LCG and Meredith will not be standing next to you on Judgement Day. Are you going to stand before God and say, 'but they told me it was so'? I'm pretty sure that's not going to work for you."

But as a christian, you really must not search for truth yourself. Certainly don't try to prove it. Not if you want to keep your christianity intact at least.

Christianity is based upon putting your trust in men, either ancient men who wrote a book, or modern men who claim to be able to interpret the words of those ancient men. You really have no choice as a believer but to expect that you're going to have stand before one god or another and say "but 'they' told me it was so," whichever "they" you might be referring to. Funny thing is how every god that has ever existed has always put every common non-prophet in that same tight spot of having to put your trust in other men. For some reason, none of the gods seem to be capable of speaking for themselves.

There are real, serious challenges in the world, and a real, substantive life worth living, and people are worrying about the political wrangling going on in a little office building up the street from a Planet Fitness in Charlotte. The historic myopia of Armstrongist devotees is alive and well.

I am rather slow when it comes to things of the Worldwide Church of God past 1976 - I have a large time gap in my mind since I left WCG near its peak in 1976. My knowledge thereafter is only second hand through my family who stayed in the Church and what I have read on the internet. I wasn't "getting it' about the references to "trade" until I read Anonymous 10:52 AM post.

Herbert W. Armstrong beat into us all that "God's way is give". And boy did people give under threat of eternal lake of fire damnation. When I left the WCG in 1976, a senior in Finance at the University of Maryland 4 years after being an Ambassador College reject (thank you dear Lord), by then I had figured out that HWA didn't complete the transaction. If a dollar is given, a dollar is taken - someone "gives" (good in WCG) and someone "gets"(preached as Satan's way in WCG and therefore bad).

"God's way is Trade" is more intellectually honest and truthful - and apparently biblical based. It wasn't stated enough in WCG that God does "get" (Satan's way) something of value in return - US! Unfortunately, HWA and the WCG stuck their corporate organization hands into the monetary transaction stating repeatedly that "God's way is give". Ironically, by WCG definition, the recipient of our money was following Satan's way of "get".

By their fruits, you shall know them! What are the fruits of Armstrong Churches of God after 80 years?

To complete a thought I had with Byker Bob on another thread, it has been personally interesting for me to see "the most important work on earth" according to God's Apostle - something we gave our lives into believing - disintegrate, splinter, fraction and destroyed into NOTHING - my family first came into contact with Mr. Armstrong in the early 1950s through my grandfather so I can speak to the fruits of at least 60 years of the 80 years.

Not forgetting that Christs death paid for peoples sins, a trade, and 'by His strips you were healed,' another trade. Ever noticed that every law in physics and chemistry has a equal sign, trade, trade, trade.. Since Christ Himself had to pay for peoples sins, trade is metaphorically more powerful than God Himself. Yet the churches hide trade, teaching that the minister footlockers do the getting, and those that refuse to bootlick, do the giving.

The fact that the whole Armstrong movement is "nowheresville" is pretty much proven by the fact that persons of color are not sought out, or considered for upper leadership positions in this or other ACOGs, and seemingly, nobody even cares. It is a travesty and a slap in the face. You only need to look at NASCAR, or the NHRA and the driver development programs, and the recent successes of Bubba Wallace and Antron Brown to realize what could be accomplished here if proper efforts were made, and realistic opportunities were provided. Given such outstanding examples, there just are no excuses for the ACOGs. An organism which ceases to grow dies.

Richard 7:16 am, You ask " What are the fruits of Armstrong Churches of God after 80 years?"

Thousands of people who adore Jesus Christ, our Savior, in deep gratitude for what He has done for us. People who are striving to allow Jesus Christ to live his life in us through the Holy Spirit. People who have been freed from mortality and await with joyous expectation the receipt of eternal life at the resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ. People who are honoring our Lord and Master by striving to live righteously now in a way which will be pleasing to God.

That is the fruit of the work of Herbert Armstrong as it has touched my life. I am sorry for those of you who have not experienced these blessings.

"" What are the fruits of Armstrong Churches of God after 80 years?" Thousands of people who adore Jesus Christ...I am sorry for those of you who have not experienced these blessings."

Yeah, out of 7.3 billion people, the fruit of the "work" of Herbert Armstrong is a pitiful and dwindling several thousand self-righteous hypocrites who mean well, but because of the darker parts of their culture's traditional theology, were hoodwinked into accepting the fear-based ideology of the aforementioned cult leader.

It's not Jesus that those who adulate Herbert Armstrong adore, but Herbert Armstrong himself. WCG is a cult dedicated to the worship of Herbert Armstrong, which is why you can't even say the name Jesus without following it up with a "christ." Herbert Armstrong is your lord and master. He is the one for whom you have deep gratitude for what he has done for you. He is your high priest and the mediator of your covenant. He is the central figure in your cult. Not Jesus who is an afterthought.

And what of the remaining 7.3 billion according to Herbert Armstrong's cult theology? Screw 'em, you're the special ones, right? As long as you think your bread is buttered, who cares whether the rest of mankind is supposedly going to be permanently exterminated in a lake of fire or are given an eternal life to be your slaves? And for what cause? No particular reason. Why has your god supposedly favored you above all of them? Just random dumb luck, I guess, that the fact he's a unfair respecter of persons just "happens" to "conveniently" work in your favor. Or so you tell yourselves (just like all the other religious people in "the world" that you despise, btw). Thank the gods all those fairy tales are just that, fairy tales.

I am sorry for those who have been hoodwinked into worshiping Herbert Armstrong, and furthermore, hoodwinked into thinking that's some kind of "blessing."

Well said Priam. I applaud your comment although I would hesitate at "been freed from mortality" I believe we are presently mortal but do "await with joyous expectation the receipt of eternal life at the resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ."also

"That is the fruit of the work of Herbert Armstrong as it has touched my life. I am sorry for those of you who have not experienced these blessings."

Well said Priam. I applaud your comment although I would hesitate at "been freed from mortality" I believe we are presently mortal but do "await with joyous expectation the receipt of eternal life at the resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ."also

"That is the fruit of the work of Herbert Armstrong as it has touched my life. I am sorry for those of you who have not experienced these blessings."

Well said Priam. I applaud your comment although I would hesitate at "been freed from mortality" I believe we are presently mortal but do "await with joyous expectation the receipt of eternal life at the resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ."also

"That is the fruit of the work of Herbert Armstrong as it has touched my life. I am sorry for those of you who have not experienced these blessings."

Priam, the premise of the biblical message is that Jesus lives in you, and, when that happens, you are already pleasing to God. You don't have to strive for anything. Your use of the phrase "striving to live righteously now in a way which will be pleasing to God" articulates the precise error of Armstrongist thinking.

Yes, Priam, many have come to know Jesus. But, that is like saying, "Mussolini made the trains run on time and Hitler helped revitalize the German economy by preparing for WW II.If it wasn't through HWA, it would have been through Thru the Bible, Back to the Bible, etc. with much less damage to people and fewer false teachings and false prophecies.

That's called being selective with your fruits, instead of judging by all fruits produced. Or another term would be "the sin of convenient omission". HWA & Co pulled that trick for decades. I see it still works on some.

In his second, and main paragraph, Priam quoted the textbook. Many decades ago, HWA or someone close to him preached a sermon on the "proper attitude" on this topic, and everyone I ever knew who was part of WCG or one of the splinters has used these same words as if they had originated them themselves. The funny thing is, the words were not an HWA original, either. Mainstream Christians whom I know express the same sentiments, attributing it all to their particular church group.

But although it's not an exclusive thing, it's all good. For a believer to do things pleasing to God (even though our righteousness is as filthy rags) is totally appropriate. I would also be quick to add that I believe some of our atheist friends do more things that God would tend to be pleased with than those of us who are Christian. Some guy who, out of pure humanity, volunteers at a homeless shelter is on a better path than the "Christian" who tells a homeless family that isn't in his church to take a bath and get a job.

"....the premise of the biblical message is that Jesus lives in you,...."

Do you have any scriptural references for that?

also"You don't have to strive for anything."

We are simply following scriptural instructions as in: "Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." and have pity for the latter.

Interesting word "premise". My Merriam-Webster has it as ".... b : something assumed or taken for granted :...."Is that what you mean? You 'assume' and/or 'take it for granted'.

Priam and Ralph are displaying the demonic influence that prevents them from understanding the New Covenant concept of justification. HWA was an obstacle standing between his followers and Jesus. Those who are not demonically swayed can see the fruits of HWA's evil empire. HWA turned more souls to agnosticism and atheism than to Jesus. Then there are a few of HWA's minions, like Priam and Ralph, who fell to neither so that they could stay true to the HWA course of pushing others into either path. Tools of Satan!

Ralph cites James 2:10 to condemn others with no idea of how he has failed to keep the law of the New Covenant. Previously, Ralph had cited a verse in Matthew 19 about law keeping but will not acknowledge the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:21 about selling all he has. Ralph selectively chooses which laws he wants to insist others follow and which laws he will ignore. Such smuggery, confusion, and law breaking on Ralph's part must be the influence of you know who!

I really don't see how my quoting scripture condemns anybody. If anything, it is scripture that condemns, not my reference to it. Condemnation is not a part of the Christian package. "Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

I certainly do not insist that anybody follows any law. That is surely a matter of individual and personal choice. Whatever consequences may follow are dependent on one's personal choice(s).

also:"...no idea of how he has failed to keep the law of the New Covenant."

Can you please explain how I have failed to keep the "law of the New Covenant." The one that says:"Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"and please include scriptural backup, if you can find any. For this reason:"2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God (Yehovah), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Remembering also: "Luk_4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

I agree with Bob. Mainstream Christians believe the same Priam so in that regard Armstongites are not special.

For the anons who are throwing around accusations of demonic influence, really?! It's so below the belt and unnecessary. People can have and share different thoughts and beliefs withou being influenced by Satan.

"People can have and share different thoughts and beliefs withou being influenced by Satan."

No, I don't think so. You see, all goodness is produced centrally, and must be distributed to everyone, which is why god gets all the credit for all the good that all people do. Same goes for evil. Everything that is not of god is centrally produced by satan, and also must be distributed, which is why people still get blamed for all the bad they do. And the non-existant sliver in between is where our free will is. Makes perfect sense! (Not!) These are bona fide world-class operations these two have got going. Kinda like Santa and his elves! What's not believable about that?

It's futile to discuss holy scripture with an Armstrongite; your kind of demon only comes out with much fasting and prayer.

The 80+ history of Armstrongism displays a complete disregard for the New Covenant and its terms. The writings, telecasts, and views of members uniformly ignore the New Covenant. You can try to obscure that history but, you won't succeed.

Throughout the years, Armstrongism has portrayed all other theological thought as being influenced by Satan. True to the uniform delusions of Armstrongism, they have a hissy fit when someone applies their own insults to them.

Another uniformity among all Armstrongites - they will never endeavor to become experts on the New Covenant and teach from the standpoint of understanding. One funny quirk of all Armstrongite splinters, which they inherited from Pervie Herbie, is their fond habit of exposing how wrong the doctrines of Christian, so called, churches are. However, none of the Armstrongite blabbers can accurately frame the beliefs of the other churches so they throw up a strongman argument to do battle with. It's rather silly that the "true church" is so deficient that it cannot even correctly understand what they condemn. Must be Satan's spirit of confusion and discord.

"For the anons who are throwing around accusations of demonic influence, really?! It's so below the belt and unnecessary."

I'd suggest that it depends on your point of view. Long ago I came to the conclusion that when we offer words on any topic we are simply expressing our opinions, as such. These opinions may or may not be relevant to the truth of the matter. If they are not then the listener can simply ignore or disregard them as fantasy. It is up to the listener to decide. Many of these kinds of opinion I have found on this blog and have been taken with the proverbial grain of salt.See 'HERE'

However, if they are relevant to the truth then one should sit up and take notice. Most of us know the source of all truth: "Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."Finally:"Pro_23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words."We ALL make mistakes with some of our responses. LOL

If you personally do not have to strive for anything you are already a perfect man. Bless you. In God's Word I find men and women who, even though imbued with the Holy Spirit, still had to struggle (strive) to overcome their natural instincts (See Paul as he records his struggle in Romans 7:14 - 25).

Anonymous 6:27pm

You accuse Ralph of selectively using Scripture and failing to obey Christ's admonition to sell everything and give to the poor. Anonymous 6:27, have you done that yourself? Or was that not just Christ's challenge to one particular potential disciple? The remaining books of the NT acknowledge the legitimacy of private property. But we must figuratively 'count it as nothing' and consider it surrendered to God for what ever claim we personally understand He may have on it.

You write that supporters of Mr Armstrong have had a hissy fit after being accused of being inspired by Satan and demonic. On the contrary, none have had a hissy fit at all but have maintained their verbal composure. Read the postings.

Any visitor to this site will not fail to notice that it is the anti-LCG crowd here who get vulgar, abusive, venomous and call LCG members crude names. Whereas, LCG suppporters nearly always present with courtesy.

Strongman ... sorry, smoking and typing at the same time has its hazards. I meant "straw-man argument" - as in when a biblical illiterate Armstrongite leader says something like. "Those churches who are deceived by Satan say that Jesus kept the commandments for them so they can act any way they want and then they expect to be playing harps while floating on clouds for all eternity!" They set up a false argument to defeat so that they seem like they know something.

Yep, Armstronites can't correctly frame the views of others but, they love to label them as the deceived.

And, there's no one as nasty as an LCG minister who feels he's been disrespected. Their members take so much crap from them, they've become legendary for spreading the hurt. You all have a reputation you cannot escape.

And, you'll never catch an Armstrongite saying they should learn more about stuff like grace, justification, or sanctification - or they should write a booklet, preach a sermon, or devote a telecast to these biblical concepts. They are uniformly, with an 80+ year record of evidence, not interested in anything New Covenant. If they were interested, they'd soon no longer be Armstrongites.

I have found that opponents do not correctly express the beliefs of CoGs. For instance they say we believe in salvation by works. (Is that not a straw-man?) We actually believe in salvation by grace through the mercy of God upon repentance and the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior after which we receive forgiveness. Having been forgiven we believe we cannot continue in sin. Sin is the transgression of God's law. We have to overcome our human, carnal tendency to steal, lie, covet, hate etc, etc., exactly the same temptations that Christ faced. He did not resist and overcome to give us licence to fail ie sin. He did not not-sin so that we can sin with impunity.

Do you know how many commandments there are recorded in the new covenant, new testament as Christian imperatives? In Dakes Annotated Reference Bible, Dake a Pentecostal preacher, lists over 1100! Yet, still, Christians are FREE - to obey the law of liberty. We are free from the grasp of Satan, free from the fate of eternal death, free from the penalties that sinning brings in this life (unless we do slip and sin).Christianity is simple. God offers us salvation - accept it on His terms - or die which is the natural fate of all physical beings.

From all those who talk "stuff like grace, justification, or sanctification .-."coupled with the "New Covenant", I have not seen one reference to:"Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

Bearing in mind that scripture defines sin thus:"1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Some may not remember or understand Armstrongite doctrine, but for the most part folks here just skip the artificial favorable spin, we no longer use the church's Orwellian double speak, and we don't give the ministers a pass for HWA's false prophecy, which was the tool he used to back people into a corner, believing that Armstrongism was our only escape and protection. I feel so sorry for the people who have spent an extra 40 years of ACOG induced tribulation when they could have gotten off with only 3-1/2 years at the hands of the Germans (according to the horrible false prophecies)

No, and thats where these threads are interesting. You cannot discuss someone into dismissing a belief system (be it religious, political, occupational, etc) that they hold, unless it is the simplest possible variety turning on only one premise. And a big variable is how emotionally attached to the system they are... that goes beyond logic or knowledge.

Rather, the separation from a belief system has to occur in bits and pieces. Open discussion can provide people with some of those, if they are capable and willing to measure them on their own time.

The problem here seems to be the lack of understanding about the rift that actually existed between Paul and his Gentile version of his hallucinatory Christ message and the Jewish Christian perspective of his rivals in the faiths, Peter, James and John. This is why you can never quite figure out this law/grace problem. Depends who you quote. Get over the idea these guys loved each other, all spoke and all believed the same things. Paul was the antichrist to Jewish Christians and to Paul, they were the immature in whom was not Paul's great understanding. Of course Paul never met any earthly Jesus and never quotes him but felt he could go from persecutor to Apostle without anyone's permission or stops in between. Who ordained Paul? Not any Peter , James or John or anyone is said to have walked with Gospel Jesus. (I have almost concluded there was no real Jesus and he is a literary construct, but I spare you)

A good read of Galatians 1-2 will leave you with an understanding of just how much of a Lone Ranger in need of no Peter, Jame or John or any reputed Church leaders. "I learned nothing from them..."

The Jewish writer of Revelation probably was referring to Paul as the false apostle that the Ephesian Church found wanting and was congratulated for kicking out by Revelation Jesus.

Tibits on Paul's view of himself and deceptive, uncooperative and self absorbed thinking?

Galatians 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

(This spoken by the same person who said:

I Cor 9:19-2 "Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

Ok Paul...which one is it? Personally how could anyone know what Paul actually believed if he was being all these things to all these different folk to win them over at any cost? Being all things to all men is a formula for deception.

11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb (Like Jesus and Jeremiah) and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me (Not THROUGH me) so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. (All this contradicts Acts story of Paul)

Galatians 2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. (No difference? Nothing?)

Ralph - perhaps smoking while you read scripture could help you shake the Armstrongite fault of lifting a juicy bit out of the context you are hell bent on ignoring. It is crazy how you all uniformly do that - or is it demonic influence?

Priam - most recently, a life-long COGer told me that salvation is based on grace plus works. That is after I had cited verses stating that salvation is absolutely not by works, as he had earlier been insisting. See, that is proof Armstrongites can learn!. Most Armstrongites will no agree that works are not required for salvation. And, they will cite the litany of expected verses (out of context) to prove their beliefs. You will not hear any COG t.v. personalities talking about salvation as a free gift, or see that concept in print in one of their magazines.

You have your non-biblical conditions to salvation while God demands one hundred percent obedience. Your repentance is not getting you there. You say Jesus is your Savior, can you post a link to a COG sermon or booklet that explains the COG position on that concept?

One COGer recently told me that Jon 3:16 is not the gospel and they don't need to be preaching that to the deceived world.

Priam - you can try to whitewash COG theology and it's long, dead history but, it still stinks!

So sad, Dennis, that you cannot discern the difference between Paul's purposes in Gals 1: 10 quote and the I Cor 1:19 -23 quote. Once you fathom those motives any contradiction between the two passages disappears.

To the rest of you readers - can you understand that in Gal 1 Paul was eschewing seeking a personal following. In I Cor 1 Paul is talking about winning and bringing people to the salvation that is available through Christ?

RE Dennis' note that Paul's account of his early ministry contradicts Luke's account in Acts may I commend to you "A Harmony of the Life of St. Paul" by Frank J Goodwin. It will help you to understand what Dennis Diehl clearly does not.

Priam...Paul never in is alleged career "eshewed a personal following." In Galatians, he makes it very clear he is his own man, "Christ" gives him his marching orders directly (Schizophrenia?) and would tell anyone to follow him and not the "reputed pillars" who made no difference to him nor taught him anything.

The Apostle Paul became an Apostle as mysteriously as Dave Pack and being "called from the womb" as opposed to the account of the Damascus Road would mean to him psychologically he was the man to follow. To follow him as he "followed Christ" meant "Follow me only and I will keep you informed as to what Christ tells me personally." Kinda like HWA and just about every splinter an sliver self appointed leader.

If Paul was Saul, the Christian killer he claims to be, I imagine the victims would have preferred he figured out he was called from the womb a bit sooner.

To the rest of "you readers", Paul the Mythmaker is much more interesting and leads to critical thinking about important topics such as how following the "called by Christ" types can determine the quality of the rest of your own life and that of your family. I doubt those young folk who took Paul's advice to remain single and only to "avoid fornication" because time was short, or never married which Paul thought was the best because of course no one would marry the him anyway, regretted his Christ inspired advice.

On a personal note Priam, Thank you for your condescending pat on the head. It makes me want to understand everything the way you do. :)

Well, when you put it like that,yes!I'm a strong supporter of the KISS principle and firmly believe that King Solomon put it so very simply when he wrote in "Ecc 12:13 All has been heard; the end of the matter is: Fear God [revere and worship Him, knowing that He is] and keep His commandments, for this is the whole of man [the full, original purpose of his creation, the object of God's providence, the root of character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to all inharmonious circumstances and conditions under the sun] and the whole [duty] for every man." [Amp]

Sometimes you just have to throw back your head and laugh at all of the irony we've all experienced in our journey that was often tainted by Armstrongism.

In his Christmas booklet, HWA warned about the dangers of teaching children about Santa Clause. In HWA's original story, he told of a young boy who had discovered that there is no Santa Clause. To hear HWA tell it, the young boy tearfully told one of his friends, "Hey, I'm going to be checking into this Jesus Christ business, as well!"

1) I wish my parents and the church had lied to me about Santa Clause, rather than lying to me about 1972 and the Germans.

2). Isn't it ironic that the bogusness and lack of other than imaginary fulfillment of HWA's religion has caused even some of his former ministers to be "checking into this Jesus Christ business" as well?

They always told us that people who didn't have the so-called restored doctrines could not possibly be depended upon to know "the truth". So, depend on them we did. Obviously, HWA did not have the truth concerning the so-called national identity of our melting pot, or its prophetic destiny, or the correct timeline of the events. But, people still rely on all of these errors just because the people perpetuating them keep what they think is the sabbath, and the other doctrines.

This is an imperfect world, folks! Nobody can be relied upon as a source for 100% truth. Don't ever put all of your eggs in one church's basket.

Dennis, I certainly did not intend to come across as condescending. I meant "So sad" (I assume that's what you are referring to) literally. It is sad (provide your own substitute synonym if you wish) that you who have studied much and present yourself as a scholar cannot explain the apparent discrepancy between the two passages you quote.

I note that in your answer to me do not refute my explanation by an analysis of your actual quotes. In your first quote from Galatians Paul is saying he is not seeking a personal following and in your Corinthians quote he is saying he wants to win people for salvation in Christ. The differences in his meaning in those two quotes is obvious and the two passages are not at odds as you present them to be.

"Thousands of people who adore Jesus Christ, our Savior, in deep gratitude for what He has done for us. People who are striving to allow Jesus Christ to live his life in us through the Holy Spirit. People who have been freed from mortality and await with joyous expectation the receipt of eternal life at the resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ. People who are honoring our Lord and Master by striving to live righteously now in a way which will be pleasing to God. That is the fruit of the work of Herbert Armstrong as it has touched my life. I am sorry for those of you who have not experienced these blessings.

Prior to sending probes to other planets, people claimed to be receiving ESP "transmissions" from both Martians and Venusians with cold-war oriented warnings and messages of hope, and I am sure there were more than a few rubes who believed them. Then we sent a probe to Mars and it was revealed to be a desolate planet much more inhospitable to life than had previously been understood, and subsequently, people stopped claiming that they were receiving ESP messages from Martians, however the ESP messages from Venusians continued unabated. Then we sent a probe to Venus and it was revealed to be an even more inhospitable environment, and subsequently, the ESP messages from Venusians also stopped. These days, people still claim to receive ESP messages, but now from aliens supposedly inhabiting much more distant planets.

1) What is the difference between a "prophet" or "apostle" of some "god" and one of these poor schmucks who claimed to receive ESP messages from aliens? Aren't gods just examples of a specific class of pre-industrial aliens?

2) Can we learn anything from the patent failures of people claiming to receive ESP messages from aliens? I guess some people can't.

Personally, I am sorry for anyone who claims that an alien is parasitically "living his life" within your body via ESP, or by any other fanciful means. I am also sorry for anyone who proudly claims to be one of the rubes who feels that the "work" one of these poor schmucks, like Jesus, the "apostle" Paul, or the "apostle" Herbert who all claimed to have received ESP messages from aliens, has "touched their life." You're as looney as Giorgio Tsoukalos or Erich von Däniken.

I would not begin to present myself as a theological scholar. My credentials for such are non existent. I grew up in a very Calvinistic and Dutch religious environment. As children we memorized whole chapters of the Bible and by the time I went to AC I knew more of what the Bible said, not meant perhaps or any of the background on who and what, than most of the students that were my peers. AC wove a plausible tale for me and a context to put it in that the Orthodox Presbyterian faith did not. They seemed to care little about most of it but was a nice place and way to grow up. No abuse for sure.

As a thinker more and less of an emotionally religious person, long story short, I studied my way out of the story. The evidence for the Christ of Paul, the God become man and then man back to God is implausable and simply base on faith. Facts, for me, eventually trump faith and they did. The evidence for a human gospel and historical Jesus is weak and in the realm, for me, as doubtful but interesting . In my studies of the character of Paul I find two Paul's. The cooperative and team playing one in Acts, written by a fan named "Luke" and the nasty, self absorbed , ugly, short an lousy speaker, by his own admission Paul of his own authentic writings. Not all books attributed to Paul and others are actually written by them or him.

I realize that this is my theological journey is my own as is that of others. There will never be consensus on any of this. To be quoted scriptures to prove something to me or to assure me that "God says.." simply does not work for me because the words are clearly written by men telling me that they think they know what God would or did say. If there is a God, let it speak for itself and leave no doubt. But there , to me is great doubt on so many things I was brought up to accept as fact. The Sunday School version is false, plain and simple, to me. It is that version most people argue over and for me that argument is long over .

We all get a bit defensive for our own views and conclusions as evidenced by these threads on so many topics. But in the end, it is fine for each to be where they are because we all have had different backgrounds, upbringings and came to the Church in different ways and times for many different reasons with many different reactions to the ultimate debacle it became.

I would not begin to present myself as a theological scholar. My credentials for such are non existent. I grew up in a very Calvinistic and Dutch religious environment. As children we memorized whole chapters of the Bible and by the time I went to AC I knew more of what the Bible said, not meant perhaps or any of the background on who and what, than most of the students that were my peers. AC wove a plausible tale for me and a context to put it in that the Orthodox Presbyterian faith did not. They seemed to care little about most of it but was a nice place and way to grow up. No abuse for sure.

As a thinker more and less of an emotionally religious person, long story short, I studied my way out of the story. The evidence for the Christ of Paul, the God become man and then man back to God is implausable and simply base on faith. Facts, for me, eventually trump faith and they did. The evidence for a human gospel and historical Jesus is weak and in the realm, for me, as doubtful but interesting . In my studies of the character of Paul I find two Paul's. The cooperative and team playing one in Acts, written by a fan named "Luke" and the nasty, self absorbed , ugly, short an lousy speaker, by his own admission Paul of his own authentic writings. Not all books attributed to Paul and others are actually written by them or him.

I realize that this is my theological journey is my own as is that of others. There will never be consensus on any of this. To be quoted scriptures to prove something to me or to assure me that "God says.." simply does not work for me because the words are clearly written by men telling me that they think they know what God would or did say. If there is a God, let it speak for itself and leave no doubt. But there , to me is great doubt on so many things I was brought up to accept as fact. The Sunday School version is false, plain and simple, to me. It is that version most people argue over and for me that argument is long over .

We all get a bit defensive for our own views and conclusions as evidenced by these threads on so many topics. But in the end, it is fine for each to be where they are because we all have had different backgrounds, upbringings and came to the Church in different ways and times for many different reasons with many different reactions to the ultimate debacle it became.

DENNIS...You keep trying to push your opinion and perception of the bible and the Apostle Paul as fact when it is only as I said, your opinion and perception and you can't see past that. My opinion and perception tells me you are totally wrong because I believe what the bible says. Just because it doesn't come right out and say how Paul became an apostle doesn't mean he wasn't one, if the bible says he was then he was, I don't need to know how or who anointed him or whatever. My guess is you are an atheist because of certain things the bible tells us and you reject it. If you are an Athiest that's your business, but really, quit trying to push your opinion and perception as fact.

DennisCDiehl, my story is very different to yours. When I started attending the WWGC I barely knew my bible or what to say in prayer. I feel embarrassed by how backward my prayers were. However unlike yourself, it was obvious that God was answering my prayers. I acted on what I knew, and God responded. No person can fake that. Today I am a stay at home Christian. God confirmed my suspicion that Armstrong betrayed his training in capitalism via advertising, and embraced collectivism instead. Hence the 'give and get' bull rather than trade. I believe the man is loved because of such lies rather than telling the truth. Notice how unity, motivation by service, human nature needs to change, people don't get it, are all communist themes or expressions. He does not have Gods approval.

3:29, pushing opinion as fact was part of the ministerial training at Ambassador College. In fact, it was part of the UAP (Universal Ambassador Personality) which all students were expected to adapt and make their own. Those who mastered it were sent into the field. The problem today is that the UAP was intended be used only in pushing HWA's picked and chosen elements from the Bible, HWA's officially approved conspiracy theories, and the works of HWA's discredited historians such as Hislop and Velikovsky. Although it actually spills over into a person's entire life, really the UAP was never intended by its originators to be used in advancing other than the HWAcaca.

The footnotes in a good study Bible deal with much of what has been continuously discussed about the conflicts and controversies which supposedly invalidate Paul, although why anyone would want to throw out the character in the Bible who actually rescues us (via Romans and Galatians) from Armstrongism is incomprehensible to me. HWA always filtered Paul through the Old Testament, giving Paul's words the opposite meaning. I don't believe HWA even knew that Paul did not write some of the books that were attributed to him.

People harp on things in the hopes that others will embrace their new "understanding". They like to teach. Others accepting their ideas provides some apparently needed validation. We had one old guy on another forum who couldn't discuss anything other than this One God (Arianism) nonsense. It got to the point that that was in every comment he made. And there are others whose every post involved new, non-HWA-approved conspiracy theories. One topic controls some people's lives, and it is usually about something that is unknowable in the first place. But, I guess that everyone has their own perception of balance or equillibrium. As John Lennon sang, "Whatever gets you through the night...."

Priam – I just did a poll of COGers (11 in LCG) – they all said that salvation depends on your works. However, I did look up LCG’s statement of belief on salvation and was surprised that it sounds better than I would have ever given them credit for but, within it are the clues as to how/why this statement does not exactly jibe with the teaching of the leaders and the beliefs of the members.

This is LCG’s statement of belief on Salvation: Salvation is God’s gift by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 2:15; Romans 5:10). Upon repentance and baptism, God justifies us from our past sins. We then begin an ongoing process of "being saved" as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 3:18). Our salvation will be complete at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). In observing the biblical Festivals and Sabbaths, we come to understand more deeply God’s plan of salvation, and the steps toward salvation that we take as Christians.

Okay, they got the gift lingo correct from the start but, the statement ends with the steps (works) a member has to perform. In Armstrongism, if the gift idea is mentioned at all, it is always something someone has to work for – in that case, Armstrongism re-writes a crucial point in the plan of salvation by making it not a real gift with strings attached.

In the second sentence, the meaning of justification is mangled by the error that it only covers past sins. Justification is the New Covenant expression of Atonement – it gives righteous standing and the ability to be with God forever. There is no biblical limitation that relegates justification to past sins. Armstrongism will not cover this topic because they do not want their members to understand it.

Armstronism overlooks verses like Ephesians 2:5 and Ephesians 2:8 because they depict being saved in the past tense – as in it is a done deal. Also, these verses poignantly state that salvation is all grace and zero you. Any statement of belief on salvation from a credible Christian entity would include these verses and elaboration on the concept of grace. Instead, LCG only mentions grace in this second sentence in a despicable manner that makes it sound like the person has to do works so that they can grow in grace and knowledge. Memories of COG teachings about needing to pray and study for an hour a day or you won’t make it to COG salvation come to mind.

The third sentence is a display of Armstrongism designed to enslave people to tithing and writhing to the leadership because the people can never be sure if they will be saved in the end. That’s because in Armstrongism, salvation is not a gift but is works based with a final outcome determined by one’s works. Again, Ephesians 2:5-8 displays the past tense, it’s a done deal, aspect of salvation that Armstrongism rejects because it won’t keep the people in the shackles.

The last sentence does not literally say you must keep the holy days to be saved but, the Armstronism thinking and believing require it. That is what sermons are preached on and the members believe. So, COG salvation is only based on the works people perform, not on grace – which is based on giving us the rewards earned by the works Jesus performed. Again, the steps referred to in this last sentence are a clue that COG salvation will only be granted to those who work, work, work, and you can never be sure if you did enough, so you had better send in more money while you’re still breathing.

Priam, COG theology is not New Covenant compliant and for you to suggest that we do not understand what COGs believe is proof of your deception. I am still hoping you can provide links to COG sermons or booklets on topics such as: salvation by grace, Jesus as Savior, justification, sanctification, glorification. Given the weight Christians-so-called place on John 3:16, surely there must be an entire sermon preached on it, at some time in all of COGdom, that you can share.

Anonymous December 24 at 5:55 AM, you have an interesting way of reading the Bible. I love it!

Like other fundamentalists, you take it as a given that your god gave humanity the Bible as a complete, consistent guide to how we should run our lives. Somehow or another, he managed to arrange things so that an anthology including diverse literary genres, composed over many generations by many authors, working in different cultural environments, and afflicted with different mixtures of individual quirks, nevertheless expresses a coherent set of moral and spiritual principles. Most advocates of your view go to great lengths to explain that obvious contradictions in the text are only apparent, and do not actually clash at all. Refreshingly, you ignore such complications and go straight to the single story that you maintain holds the key to the whole Bible: the parable of the talents, in which employees are chided for keeping money safe by hiding it and rewarded for investing it and drawing interest.

That story was a metaphor meant to illustrate the principle that Christians must amplify and enrich their character by building on whatever spiritual gifts they possess. In the technical jargon of rhetorical studies, that essential meaning is the "tenor." It is carried by the "vehicle," which in this case is the act of investing money. It might be easier to see the relationship if we call the tenor “product” and refer to the vehicle as “package.” This leads to what I admire most about your stratagem. Not only do you ignore nearly the whole Bible and condense it into one simple metaphoric story; in that story you ignore the tenor and hold up for our admiring gaze the vehicle. You imply that the package is worth more than the product. What you explicitly tell us is, “God’s way is the way of trade.”

Like I said, I love it.

I love it so much, it inspires me to look for other scriptures to corroborate that lesson and amplify it. You and your Chamber of Commerce friends get impatient with long, involved explanations and prefer the simplicity of a single sound bite, but bear with me. Here is a list of additional sound bites that can help make your case for capitalism. Consider it the biblical equivalent of “news you can use.”

1. God’s way is the way of showing who’s boss. • Adam and Eve, brought to subjection for disobeying a command they were expected to disobey.• Job, tormented to demonstrate that he shouldn’t get uppity and ask difficult questions, rewarded only after knuckling under.• Abraham, ordered to slash his son’s throat just because. (This example should ease the consciences of bosses who oppress their employees merely to satisfy their sadistic urges.) 2. God’s way is the way of unfair advantage. • Jacob, catching Esau in a weak moment and trading him lentil soup to get his inheritance.3. God’s way is the way of fraud. • Jacob (again), impersonating his brother to trick his father into validating his unfairly acquired birthright.4. God’s way is the way of downsizing. • The Great Flood, imposed on a workforce that had grown unruly and unproductive.5. God’s way is the way of genocide, because trade cannot be profitable except under the aegis of business-friendly government.• The plagues of Egypt.• Jericho, turned to rubble because it stood in the way of Israelite progress, along with several other Canaanite communities, as recounted in Deuteronomy.• The Jebusite wars, in Judges 19-20.

These are just examples. You can find many other Bible stories that support capitalist practices currently in vogue. Furthermore, interested entrepreneurs may find other helpful hints for maximizing profits by studying the Prophets.

Since the bible is so contradictory, depending upon which parts of it you study and research carefully, you'll come away with very different opinions. Which is why there are ~40,000 different christianities that can't agree about what their god wants. Seems to me like the christian god is the author of little else but confusion!