I have to get this off my chest. It seems like whenever someone posts about how they are using NFP to avoid pregnancy, a bunch of people pile on about how their reasons for avoiding aren't good enough. I see it on this forum and all over the Catholic blogosphere.

Enough!! "Serious reasons" are for the couple to determine. No one else. If the couple says their reasons are serious, then their reasons are serious. Period. It is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.

Mark Shea had a great article on this awhile back. His theory is that people who tell other people their reasons aren't good enough are too cowardly to attack people who are *actually* disobeying Church teaching by using contraception, so they attack people who *are* obeying Church teaching by using NFP and telling them that their reasons aren't good enough. Here's the article:

(snip)
It is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.

I have to get this off my chest. It seems like whenever someone posts about how they are using NFP to avoid pregnancy, a bunch of people pile on about how their reasons for avoiding aren't good enough. I see it on this forum and all over the Catholic blogosphere.

Enough!! "Serious reasons" are for the couple to determine. No one else. If the couple says their reasons are serious, then their reasons are serious. Period. It is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.

Mark Shea had a great article on this awhile back. His theory is that people who tell other people their reasons aren't good enough are too cowardly to attack people who are *actually* disobeying Church teaching by using contraception, so they attack people who *are* obeying Church teaching by using NFP and telling them that their reasons aren't good enough. Here's the article:

Enough!! "Serious reasons" are for the couple to determine. No one else. If the couple says their reasons are serious, then their reasons are serious. Period. It is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.

I understand your frustration, people give a lot of hasty advice and judgement without knowing all the details. I think people mean well when they warn someone about their 'reasons'

Catholic teaching is that the couple is to use NFP under the guidance of a priest. Not just the couple's own judgement.. think about it, one's own judgement often falls us into sin.

I disagree that "it is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." because couples can choose to use NFP indefinitely and never have a child... which is certainly not its purpose. Or their reasons could be superficial and not according to God's plan. People who are very into organic, pharmaceutical free, natural living but they are vehemently "child free" and this is basically what they are doing .

And not all women have a peak sexual desire during the furtile time. Some women don't have all that much sexual desire at all. I'm not sure why this assumption is being made.

__________________"Remember that nothing is small in the eyes of God. Do all that you do with love." - St Therese 'the little flower'

I understand your frustration, people give a lot of hasty advice and judgement without knowing all the details. I think people mean well when they warn someone about their 'reasons'

Catholic teaching is that the couple is to use NFP under the guidance of a priest. Not just the couple's own judgement.. think about it, one's own judgement often falls us into sin.

I disagree that "it is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." because couples can choose to use NFP indefinitely and never have a child... which is certainly not its purpose. Or their reasons could be superficial and not according to God's plan. People who are very into organic, pharmaceutical free, natural living but they are vehemently "child free" and this is basically what they are doing .

And not all women have a peak sexual desire during the furtile time. Some women don't have all that much sexual desire at all. I'm not sure why this assumption is being made.

Actually, Catholic teaching is not that a couple has to seek guidance from a priest on the use of NFP. Catholic teaching is that they are not to use it for selfish reasons. Seeking guidance froma priest or other trusted friends can be a good way to double check your motives to make sure they aren't selfish, but is not required.

Catholic teaching is that the couple is to use NFP under the guidance of a priest. Not just the couple's own judgement.. think about it, one's own judgement often falls us into sin.

This is NOT TRUE. Couples don't need the guidance of a priest. It is up to them. Please show me where it says that couples need the permission of a priest to use NFP. It is nowhere in Catholic teaching.

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I disagree that "it is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." because couples can choose to use NFP indefinitely and never have a child... which is certainly not its purpose. Or their reasons could be superficial and not according to God's plan. People who are very into organic, pharmaceutical free, natural living but they are vehemently "child free" and this is basically what they are doing .

Do you mean couples who go into marriage planning to never have children? If so, those marriages would be invalid according to the Church. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you're the type of couple who never wants children, you are not going to bother with NFP. Yes, there are people who use the Fertility Awareness Method who never want children. I have run into people like that on the Taking Charge of Your Fertility forums. But those people almost always use barrier methods or withdrawal during the fertile time, which is not NFP.

I completely disagree that a couple's reasons "may be superficial and not according to God's plan." Going to the trouble of observing fertility signs, charting, interpreting your chart, possibly changing your diet to make it easier, possibly having to consult with an instructor or an NFP-only doctor, and abstaining is not something that people do if they don't have serious reasons.

I guess it's possible to use NFP without a serious reason for a very short period of time. But if the couple's reasons aren't serious, that will become apparent VERY quickly. They will very quickly realize that it's not worth the hassle and abstinence.

I disagree that "it is impossible to use NFP with a "contraceptive mentality." because couples can choose to use NFP indefinitely and never have a child... which is certainly not its purpose. Or their reasons could be superficial and not according to God's plan. People who are very into organic, pharmaceutical free, natural living but they are vehemently "child free" and this is basically what they are doing .

That is still not a "contraceptive mentality", though. Even if they use NFP to postpone pregnancy indefinitely, that is not contraception. Contraception would require acting against conception. When a couple uses NFP, they are abstaining from marital relations. Perhaps their reasons for avoiding having children are selfish, or perhaps they are prudent. But even if they have selfish reasons, it still cannot possibly be contraceptive mentality, because they are abstaining. It is like the difference between bingeing and purging for weight loss or following a strict diet. The strict diet is akin to NFP TTA, whereas bingeing and purging is akin to contraception. A person who is willing to follow a strict diet for weight loss cannot be accused of having a "bulimic mentality", even if they are dieting for reasons of vanity or selfishness, rather than good health. Same thing with the couple who practices NFP. And besides that, we cannot possibly know all the details of another couple's situation or struggles. How could we possibly determine what is just or not, and why should we attempt to define what the Church has left for the parents to determine?

It makes me shudder, too, whenever I see the phrase "contraceptive mentality" in one of the NFP threads. Perhaps it is theoretically possible to do such a thing, but I have never come across any practitioners of NFP who fit that bill.

Mfrances is probably right that they mean well. People see something that concerns them and they want to share their concern.

It's not just with NFP threads, though, that people give way more specific advice than can be given based on the limited info a poster divulges.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who postpone pregnancy for reasons that are "not good enough." But I sure don't want to go there. It's usually tangential to the question the person is asking, anyway, and going down that road derails the thread more often than not (not to mention it usually offends the person and turns them off from any legitimate points being made). I do not expect that a poster is going to share the full extent of their personal issues/reasons on CAF in order for me to offer an accurate assessment. So I try to just take people at their word. If something needs to be said, I would qualify it with "If this is your only reason...."

But, yeah, quibbling over what posters think are good enough reasons to postpone pregnancy seldom takes a thread in fruitful directions.

The more I follow the online discussions ... the more I follow the debates and disagreements in the Church about administrative unity, or the concerns expressed about the moral or personal or administrative or leadership failings of the bishops or the clergy, the more I become convinced that whatever might be the truth of these concerns, ALL of this is simply a distraction. No, itís more than that. Itís a justification, an excuse, for not helping each other and those outside the Church fall in love with Jesus Christ. How easy it is to talk about everything, but about Jesus hardly at all.

Actually, Catholic teaching is not that a couple has to seek guidance from a priest on the use of NFP. Catholic teaching is that they are not to use it for selfish reasons. Seeking guidance froma priest or other trusted friends can be a good way to double check your motives to make sure they aren't selfish, but is not required.

This is the best summation of the teaching. No more of this "contraceptive mentality" stuff nobody knows what is means and the Church sure as heck doesn't use it or define it. It is as above, selfish reasons are to be avoided.

It makes me shudder, too, whenever I see the phrase "contraceptive mentality" in one of the NFP threads. Perhaps it is theoretically possible to do such a thing, but I have never come across any practitioners of NFP who fit that bill.

Mfrances is probably right that they mean well. People see something that concerns them and they want to share their concern.

It's not just with NFP threads, though, that people give way more specific advice than can be given based on the limited info a poster divulges.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who postpone pregnancy for reasons that are "not good enough." But I sure don't want to go there. It's usually tangential to the question the person is asking, anyway, and going down that road derails the thread more often than not (not to mention it usually offends the person and turns them off from any legitimate points being made). I do not expect that a poster is going to share the full extent of their personal issues/reasons on CAF in order for me to offer an accurate assessment. So I try to just take people at their word. If something needs to be said, I would qualify it with "If this is your only reason...."

But, yeah, quibbling over what posters think are good enough reasons to postpone pregnancy seldom takes a thread in fruitful directions.

And also phrase it so that you are not telling them that their reasons are selfish, but asking them to perhaps re-examine whether or not their motives are selfish. In fact, I think that is a very good thing for people to do, remind others to carefully examine their motives. But that is a very different thing from claiming that the other person's motives are actually selfish.

This is the best summation of the teaching. No more of this "contraceptive mentality" stuff nobody knows what is means and the Church sure as heck doesn't use it or define it. It is as above, selfish reasons are to be avoided.

Seriously, what does "contraceptive mentality" even mean? Different people seem to use it to mean different things, it is just a confusing term and is really unnecessary. The only way it makes sense to me to use it (which is not how it is used by most people) is to say that a persons perception and understanding of sexuality has a division between the unitive and procreative aspects of sexuality. But since nobody means it this way I think the term is really unnecessary and just causes confusion.