I have been sick of hearing the meme that British and American foreign policy led to the terrorist plots carried out recently and foiled last week in the U.K. I hear it from Muslims and their leaders quoted in the media. I heard it yesterday in an appalling report on the BBC’s World Service European show, with a reporter leading young people to say that our foreign policy and seeing their “brothers blown up” in Afghanistan led to this (let’s remember who’s really blowing up Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq: Muslims).

Well, the Observer of London — yes, the Observer — has a rousing response to that thread in an editorial today:

This was hardly a Western war against Islam. Britain and America spent much of the Nineties trying to prevent conflicts or to resolve them. At worst, as shamefully in Rwanda, they simply ignored them. They were transparently not running a conspiracy to trample the Muslim faithful underfoot. The people who depicted it that way were a tiny minority telling lies to justify murder.

But things have changed. The argument that terrorism is, in fact, a response to Western actions overseas has gained currency. It was voiced most recently on Saturday in an open letter by a number of influential British Muslim leaders to Tony Blair. The Prime Minister’s policy in the Middle East, they said, puts British lives at risk. The implication is that the young Britons who last week were accused of plotting to blow up passenger planes in mid-air would have been less susceptible to al-Qaeda recruitment had Britain not fought wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Policy should be changed, they said, to avoid giving ideological ‘ammunition to extremists’. . . .

It is also a logical and moral absurdity to imply, as some critics of British policy have done, that mass murder is somehow less atrocious when it is motivated by an elaborate narrative of political grievance.

If young British Muslims are alienated, that is sad and their anger should be addressed. But anyone whose alienation leads them to want to kill indiscriminately has crossed a line into psychopathic criminality. Policy cannot be dictated by the need to placate such people.

British Muslim leaders are entitled, along with everybody else, to raise questions about the conduct and consequences of Mr Blair’s foreign policy. But they have a more immediate responsibility to promote the truth: that Britain is not the aggressor in a war against Islam; that no such war exists; that there is no glory in murder dressed as martyrdom and that terrorism is never excused by bogus accounts of historical victimisation.

The 20th century saw the demise of communism, despite its attraction to millions of people who felt poor or downtrodden. It was exposed as a totalitarian system that stifled the aspirations of man. But its stain is spreading within the casing of Islamic fundamentalism. . . .

Like communism, Islamism promises a better life for the poor, oppressed and alienated. It is cloaked in God, but its essence is strongly secular. Unless the West fights the war of ideas at this level, offering a competing vision of morality as well as economics and technology, the lure of Islamic extremism will continue to flourish.

Suspected terrorists were planning to unleash a wave of “apocalyptic” attacks on land and air, using an arsenal of bombs and weaponry, including firearms, investigators have discovered. . . . One Whitehall source said “many dozens” of plots were under investigation, involving “hundreds” of suspects.

According to one report last night, al-Qa’ida’s leader in Britain could have been held in the raids. But security sources estimate that as many as 1,200 people here are actively involved with terrorism, and that the country is still under “very severe” threat from other potential terrorist plots.

: The Telegraph reports that five of those arrested in London trained in al Qaeda camps.

The problem with the agrument that our foreign policy causes terrorism is that it is constructed incorrectly. Our foreign policy in all likely does cause a lot of grievences throughout the Muslim world. But it the culture of extremeism – radical Sunni or radical Shia – that causes the terrorists to be the way they are.

d52boy

Mr. Jarvis, what a relief to learn that the invasion of Iraq and its reduction to bloody chaos; the illegal detention and torture of hundreds or thousands of suspects excluded from any legitimate legal process; the terrorizing of Iraqi civilians, and their more than occasional murder and rape; Mr. Bush’s total support of an Israeli government that continues to occupy Palestinian land, imprison hundreds of Arabs, and assassinate or kidnap their leaders, even those elected democratically; the U.S.’s continuing support of authoritarian Arab governments so long as they support U.S. policies, and continuing opposition to any democracy that would produce governments not supportive of U.S. policiesâ€”that all of this has done nothing to exacerbate the problems of Islamic terrorism, nothing to provoke more young Arabs to such desperation that exploding bombs seems the only remaining response, nothing to extinguish hope for justice among Muslims everywhere.

Now I know that Bush is right, that we are up against pure evil, entire populations of Iagos who hate us because we love freedom. Gee I feel better now.

Jay

A lack of decent weapons and feelings of futility lead to terrorist plots.

I don’t think foreign policy grievances are any less acceptable a cause for innocent death than commercial gain or any other agenda for that matter.

Terrorism was around long before Islamic terror. Remember Ireland? I find that the most common cause of terrorism is an occupation led by those with weapons against those without.

martininrossi

It seems that the West feels that it needs to conduct a politically correct war against the islamic fascism (I believe that is what President Bush called it recently – bravo). The West bends over backwards to be fair. It is ironic that Mr d52boy still needs to blame the West for the troubles and discontent in the Muslim world. And why not? The same authoritarian governments that Mr d52boy criticizes are doing the same thing: blame the West when anything bad happens. Economic stagnation? Blame the West. Political repression? Must the work of Jewish bankers who are running the western governments. 9/11? Must be a zionist plot. Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel? Well, they are just defending Islam against invaders.
Hypocrisy, lies and treachery are the accepted and encouraged behaviors among Muslims when dealing with non-Muslims. When the West understands this and starts acting accordingly we will all be better off. Muslim ideology is the new Marxism. The 20th century was the century of struggle against the communist/socialist ideology. The 21st century is going to be the century of struggle against the Muslim Fascism.
We did not apologise for fighting Hitler and the Soviets. The new enemy is just as dangerous.
Viewing these acts as “just terrorism” is myopic. It is simplistic to compare this to the struggle in Northern Ireland, for instance. These acts are backed by governments. This is war by different means. However it is not entirely new. Before the modern states formed, war was often conducted by marauding bands indirectly supported by authoritarian rulers. We are back to this midieval style of warfare. And why not. It fits the midieval mentality of Islam.

Jay

“…islamic fascism (I believe that is what President Bush called it recently – bravo)”

Ha ha! I read your whole post thinking you were being sarcastic! But you weren’t!!!

fascism |Ëˆfa sh ËŒizÉ™m| (also Fascism) noun: an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(Definition from Oxford American)

Who’s the fascist? Surely you meant insurgents!!!! XD

http://yargb.blogspot.com Syl

Muslims are their own worst enemy and kill more of their own than the West could ever dream of doing, if the West were to dream of such a thing.

The sooner the muslim world wakes up to that fact, the sooner they will improve their own lives. When muslims finally start to say ENOUGH to their own extremists the world will be a better place.

bittorent

It’s quite amazing that Americans constantly ignore the actions of Israel since 1948 and America’s endless support for that country as reasons for what is happening.

Is your bias the result of years of indoctrination by schools and the media, is it deliberate or due to ignorance, are you afraid to mention Israel? What is it? I don’t understand.

You of all people Jeff… Things have changed and the days are over when the media and Governments could control what information their citizens received (remember in the 1930’s when the British public didn’t know about the abdication crisis: Edward and Mrs Simpson?).

Most of the world knows the history of this and they are angry. Either we do something to put things right or we are going to face the consequences.

The reason you can’t take your laptop on flights now is because of what Israel has done since 1948. Because of America’s support for and finance of Israel since 1948. Because of Britain and America’s behaviour in Iraq.

Face up to the REAL reasons. Don’t make out Muslims are doing these things for no reason. Cause and effect… This would not be happening if people were living in peace in the Middle East, it is our fault that they are not.

bittorent

Youknow what? One day coming soon a majority of Americans will have discovered the truth, by turning to blogs and international media, which they didn’t have access to before.

When they realise what has been done in their name and the $Billions of their taxes that have been handed to Israel for weapons and to prop up this terror state, they will be furious and the politicians who have done this will pay at the voting booth.

http://www.opteamal.ch/blog/ Peter

bittorrent, you are so right – it’s actually a simple case of cause and effect if you look at the entire picture since ww2. i am not so sure about your conclusion though – the propaganda is obviously still stronger than the truth surfacing on blogs and independent media. well, i wonder how the majority of americans will react when they will finally acknowledge that 9/11 was an inside job and they have been lied to all the time?!

Our actions toward the developing world, and especially those parts containing the most resources, are certainly, in part, an explanation for the violence that has turned agaqinst us.

That is distinct from saying that the violence turned against us is thereby justified. There can be no justification of the slaughter of innocent civilians.

Conflating these two produces the cultural expedient of absolving ourselves of any responsibility for the volent actions against us.

But an honest and frank assessment of the situation would necessarily conclude that we are, at least in part, the authors of our own misfortune.

http://indypendent.blogspot.com/academese Chris Anderson

Jeff,

As is often (sadly) the case, your deep and nuanced insights grow less so when you leave issues relating to new media and begin to address address issues of foreign policy– and especially the “war on terror.” Where to begin?

“I have been sick of hearing the meme that British and American foreign policy led to the terrorist plots carried out recently and foiled last week in the U.K.”

Well, fair enough. I can understand that the shrill prtestations of the “blame america only” apologists would be enough to give you gas. But to blame America only is not the same as to blame America SOME, and to argue that yes, indeed, our actions have consequences. And to make the argument that American (and especially British / Blairite) foreign policy has absolutely no impact whatsoever on the mindset of a young Muslim man or woman living in the West is just foolish. How could this even be possible– how is it that a mindset; ideology, and predisposition would remain completely unaffected by developments in the world around it? It is, rather, fairly obvious that American and Blairite foregin policy since 2003 has severely undermined progress in the “war on terror” — and its a tragedy, because it didn’t have to be this way.

Its important to note: to make this claim is not to EXCUSE terrorist activity, and it certainly is not to CONDONE it. One needn’t choose between Bush and Chomsky when we are making these types of judegements. Its possible to simultaneously argue that there is no excuse of any kind for the type of terrorism that was thwarted earler in the week and to argue that, yes, indeed, sometimes the actions of our leadership do more to harm us in this struggle than they do to help us– that they make terrorism more rather than less likely. One of the major problems with any discussion of foreign policy in the past 15 years or so is that it has become corrupted by a sort of moral discourse: we are still conducting our policy business abroad as if we were trying to be on the side of “good” (whatever that is, and at least rhetorically) rather than what will make us safer. This is an ugly business, no doubt, but I would much rather engage in state behavior on the side on behalf of the safe rather than the good. Purity in foregin policy is the province of social movements and NGO’s, not governments.

What I mean by all this is, of course, Iraq: a war that you still (as best I can tell) seem to wholeheartedly support. Iraq was a blunder of epochal proportions and for one and one main reason only: Iraq is why we are LOSING the war on terror right now rather than wining it. To claim that events in Iraq have not radicalized a generation of Western Muslims in counties that have supported it is simply wrong: and this is true whether you like it or not. The decision to invade and occupy Iraq has set the stuggle against Islamic extremism back at least a decade, it was a war of choice, and it was wrong. And it has made you and I– New Yorkers, sitting with a bulls-eye on our backs– far less safe. That should mae you very angry. I know it does me.

All that said, on another topic entirely, your analysis of the current situation at the Columbia J-school is right on. We should talk about it sometime in the city if you are around.

respectfully,
chris

ps- and to the 9/11 inside job guy — fark off. You give progressivism and opposition to Bush a bad name. Go crawl back in your hole with the quasi fascist Alex Jones.

Kat

Upon hearing an immigrant Islamist speaker instruct an audience of Muslims that they were â€œobligated to desire, and when possible to participate in, the overthrow of any non-Islamic governmentâ€“anywhere in the worldâ€“in order to replace it by an Islamic one,â€ one American-born convert remembers protesting in dismay that this would involve people like himself in political treason. â€œYes, thatâ€™s true,â€ was the lecturerâ€™s blithe response (Jeffrey Lang, Even Angels Ask: A Journey to Islam in America, 1997).
Just turn New Jersey into an islamic sharia state and they will be happy. In England could Birmingham become Birmingstan? Then they’d like our policies.

Ravo

While most all of you keep chattering about the color of the emperor’s new suit:

“It is, indeed, “five minutes to midnight”â€”not just for Israel, but for the West. The time is very short now before we will have to confront Iran. The only question is how long we let events spin out of our control”

Anis Shorrosh, author of ”Islam Revealed” and ”The True Furqan,” is a Christian Arab-American who emigrated from Arab-controlled Jerusalem in January 1967.

”The following is my analysis of Islamic invasion of America, the agenda of Islamists and visible methods to take over America by the year 2020,” Shorrosh says. ”Will Americans continue to sleep through this invasion as they did when we were attacked on 9/11?”

1. Terminate America’s freedom of speech by replacing it with statewide and nationwide hate-crime bills.

2. Wage a war of words using black leaders like Louis Farrakhan, Rev. Jesse Jackson and other visible religious personalities who promote Islam as the religion of African-Americans while insisting Christianity is for whites only. What they fail to tell African-Americans is that it was Arab Muslims who captured them and sold them as slaves. In fact, the Arabic word for black and slave is the same, ”Abed.”

3. Engage the American public in dialogues, discussions, debates in colleges, universities, public libraries, radio, TV, churches and mosques on the virtues of Islam. Proclaim how it is historically another religion like Judaism and Christianity with the same monotheistic faith.

4. Nominate Muslim sympathizers to political office to bring about favorable legislation toward Islam and support potential sympathizers by block voting.

5. Take control of as much of Hollywood, the press, TV, radio and the Internet as possible by buying the related corporations or a controlling stock.

6. Yield to the fear of the imminent shut-off of the lifeblood of America â€“ black gold. Americaâ€™s economy depends on oil and 41 percent of it comes from the Middle East.

7. Yell ”foul, out-of-context, personal interpretation, hate crime, Zionist, un- American, inaccurate interpretation of the Quran” anytime Islam is criticized or the Quran is analyzed in the public arena.

8. Encourage Muslims to penetrate the White House, specifically with Islamists who can articulate a marvelous and peaceful picture of Islam. Acquire government positions and get membership in local school boards. Train Muslims as medical doctors to dominate the medical field, research and pharmaceutical companies. (Ever notice how numerous Muslim doctors in America are, when their countries need them more desperately than America?) Take over the computer industry. Establish Middle Eastern restaurants throughout the U.S. to connect planners of Islamization in a discreet way.

9. Accelerate Islamic demographic growth via:

* Massive immigration (100,000 annually since 1961).

* Use no birth control whatsoever â€“ every baby of Muslim parents is automatically a Muslim and cannot choose another religion later.

* Muslim men must marry American women and Islamize them (10,000 annually). Then divorce them and remarry every five years â€“ since one can’t legally marry four at one time. This is a legal solution in America.

* Convert angry, alienated black inmates and turn them into militants (so far 2,000 released inmates have joined al-Qaida worldwide). Only a few ”sleeper cells” have been captured in Afghanistan and on American soil.

10. Reading, writing, arithmetic and research through the American educational system, mosques and student centers (now 1,500) should be sprinkled with dislike of Jews, evangelical Christians and democracy. There are currently 300 exclusively Muslim schools in the U.S. which teach loyalty to the Quran, not the U.S. Constitution. In January of 2002, Saudi Arabiaâ€™s Embassy in Washington mailed 4,500 packets of the Quran and videos promoting Islam to America’s high schools â€“ free of charge. Saudi Arabia would not allow the U.S. to reciprocate.

11. Provide very sizeable monetary Muslim grants to colleges and universities in America to establish ”Centers for Islamic studies” with Muslim directors to promote Islam in higher-education institutions.

12. Let the entire world know through propaganda, speeches, seminars, local and national media that terrorists have hijacked Islam, when in truth, Islam hijacked the terrorists.

13. Appeal to the historically compassionate and sensitive Americans for sympathy and tolerance towards Muslims in America who are portrayed as mainly immigrants from oppressed countries.

14. Nullify America’s sense of security by manipulating the intelligence community with misinformation. Periodically terrorize Americans of impending attacks on bridges, tunnels, water supplies, airports, apartment buildings and malls.

15. Form riots and demonstrations in the prison system demanding Islamic Sharia as the way of life, not America’s justice system.

16. Open numerous charities throughout the U.S., but use the funds to support Islamic terrorism with American dollars.

17. Raise interest in Islam on America’s campuses by insisting freshman take at least one course on Islam.

18. Unify the numerous Muslim lobbies in Washington, mosques, Islamic student centers, educational organizations, magazines and papers by Internet and an annual convention to coordinate plans, propagate the faith and engender news in the media.

19. Send intimidating messages and messengers to the outspoken individuals who are critical of Islam and seek to eliminate them by hook or crook.

20. Applaud Muslims as loyal citizens of the U.S. by spotlighting their voting record as the highest percentage of all minority and ethic groups in America.

Shorrosh is a member of the Oxford Society of Scholars, has traveled in 76 countries, and is a lecturer and producer of TV documentaries. ”Islam Revealed” is a bestseller now in its eighth printing. His forthcoming 10th book, from which the 20-point plan is abridged, is titled ”Islam: A Threat or a Challenge.”

”The True Furqan” is also available for viewing on Islam-Exposed.org. Shorrosh’s new website is Focusing-on-Islam.com.

bittorent & d52boy – get your heads out of your behinds. If Israel is the Death Cult’s main grievance, then, why has the global jihad extended to countries as disparate as Indonesia, Thailand, Nigeria, Sudan, the Philippines, India? Hint: all of these areas have Muslims in close proximity to their non-Muslim neighbors.

Chris – what’s defeating the WOT is the left’s refusal to acknowledge it as such, it’s appeasement of murder and mayhem using bogus root causes and craven moral equivalencies. Wouldn’t we all like to go back to a pre-9/11 world where we could continue our denial in the unseriousness mode of the Clinton administration. Anything and everything provokes the jihadis. Maybe Iraq will turn out to be a failure. It’s in Iraqi hands now. But, it was worth a shot at liberating one of the most secular of ME countries – strategically important geographically too – and trying to foster democracy in the rot that is the ME.

Sorry, your life isn’t free of anxiety in NYC. But, 9/11 should have taught you that it never was safe. That atrocity was planned years before Bush was elected president. So, did Clinton make NYC a bulls eye?

Ravo

So, did Clinton make NYC a bulls eye?

Quote:

Congressman Murtha urged former President Clinton to remove U.S. troops from Somalia in 1993:

â€œClinton took the advice and ordered the withdrawal â€“ a decision that Osama bin Laden would later credit with emboldening his terrorist fighters and encouraging him to mount further attacks against the U.S.â€

What I think the problem is, is that people still think they can change other people “if they try hard enough”. If we kill them, if we jail them, if we torture them, if we keep them in constant fear, then they will stop being “so evil”.

But then again, only person you can change is yourself. Let’s stop this “war of ideas” and the effort to force-feed our own thoughts to other people.

The good old argumentative discussion is far more productive than violence and threatening. Killing their families may change their short-term behavior, but intelligent discussion may change their thoughts – and ours at the same time. Since it’s a clear fact that our actions are based on our thoughts, it’s actually quite amazing how people haven’t got that yet.

So next time, when having problems with your girlfriend/wife you could try to discuss the solutions with them instead of starting to beat them up. </ouchie, great amount of sarcasm here> ;-)

Ravo

I assume your girlfriend/wife isn’t arriving at the discussion table with an unshakable belief in an ideaology that says if she makes peace with you, she will be considered an apostate and suffer an eternal hell, but if she kills you she will enjoy 72 studs for eternity.

Ravo

Arttu:

I assume your girlfriend/wife isn’t arriving at the discussion table with an unshakable belief in an ideaology that says if she makes peace with you, she will be considered an apostate and suffer an eternal hell, but if she kills you she will enjoy 72 studs for eternity.

It is your kind of naivette that has led to years of appeasement and increasing attacks on the West. Check out Bin Laden’s own admission above.

Ravo

(Of course in the Islamic situation, it is only males that get such sexual rewards )

You can’t negotiate with people whose sole reason for being is to impose their religious caliphate on the rest of the world. You can only confront.
Appeasement will lead to their success; it is their main weapon.

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Hey Kat – Sounds like tremendous bullshit to me.

Kat

Jonathan–Ishould have added and use leftist loons as your tools.

http://kalipuna.blogspot.com D. Mathews

I have been sick of hearing the meme that British and American foreign policy led to the terrorist plots carried out recently and foiled last week in the U.K.

If you are viewing this through the prism of a â€œcultural clashâ€ (as I think you are), then I can hardly agree more! I do not buy Samuel P. Huntingtonâ€™s thesis about a clash of civilizations, either.

What I think we are overlooking is the elephant in the room which is staring us all right in the face: the competition over energy resources. (Try Googling â€œOil Wars”; you will get over 30,300,000 items!). According to the 1999 Strategic Assessment prepared for the Pentagon (hardly a left-wing think-tank!!),

“energy and resource issues will continue to shape international security”. Oil conflicts over production facilities and transport routes, particularly in the Persian Gulf and Caspian regions, are specifically envisaged. (…) Although Strategic Assessment 1999 predicts adequate US energy supplies, it also finds that supply shortages could “exacerbate regional political tensions, potentially causing regional conflicts”. (…)Strategic Assessment 1999 drew attention to pre-World War II Britain’s pursuit of an approach where control over territory was seen as essential to ensuring resource supplies.

What appears at first sight to be playing out as a cultural or civilization conflict is actually an economic conflict in disguise. So, contrary to your assertion, I do believe US foreign policy is to blame. Only I view it in economic NOT cultural terms.

Meditate on the following: There are hot spots, anti-democratic regimes and bloody dictatorships in countries scattered all over the world. The US could pick and choose to get involved in any number of them, yet it seems to be drawn almost exclusively to the Middle East. Do you really believe we would have sought to overthrow Saddam Hussein if his country did not have oil?

bittorent

I agree violence against civillians is not justified. Whether by terrorists or states.

bittorent

There are religious nut-cases in every country and every religion. From Fundamentalist Christians in the US who pressurise their Government to support Israel and raise funds because they believe Jesus will come back when the Jews return to Israel, to Islamic extremists who want to take over the world.

But those Fundamental Christian loons are far removed from the majority, just as there are millions upon millions of moderate, kind, peace-loving Muslims out there who want nothing more than to enjoy a quiet life and raise a family like the rest of us. They are not cardboard cut-out stereotypes.

However there are always people who can swing either way if there is sufficient provocation. The historical and ongoing mistreatment of the Palestinian Arabs, the disasterous war in Iraq and now the failure to condemn Israel for what any decent moral person must think is a disgrace.

Many British and American Muslims have family connections in the Middle East, quite apart from the fact that they look on all fellow Muslims as their brothers and sisters. So some of them are being radicalised.

The invasion of Iraq was based on a lie. There were no weapons of destruction. What other lies have we been fed over the years? Some of which haven’t come out yet, some of which have and you aren’t listening to.

Did you ever stop to ask why does America support and finance Israel to such an extent? When it is quite happy to stand by while black and brown people in other countries are slaughtered in their millions? Why? It is just one small country like all others.

If you were an American living in Britain and Britain kept bombing parts of America, killing civilians in their thousands. If Britain was financing and supplying weapons to other countrys that were all bombing America. If American familes were being driven out of their homes and forced to become refugees. If people who tried to deliver aid were being bombed and killed… Just how many years of this would you stand by and watch before you thought ‘I am going to fight?’

Ravo

If you were an American living in Britain and Britain [ISLAM] kept bombing parts of America,[THE WORLD] killing civilians in their thousands.

Bitorrent…um … hello…

FIXED THAT FOR YA

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Kat, I guess you automatically think that because I believe that Anis Shorrosh’s hypothesis is crap, I’m a leftist.

This is why debates like this suck. It gets stuck in this American version of right vs. left. I don’t care about right vs. left. I usually don’t agree with either.

Let’s see…

3. Engage the American public in dialogues, discussions, debates in colleges, universities, public libraries, radio, TV, churches and mosques on the virtues of Islam. Proclaim how it is historically another religion like Judaism and Christianity with the same monotheistic faith.

Engage the American public in…are you ready for this?…dialogues and discussions and debates. You might as well add lions and tigers and bears, OH MY!

4. Nominate Muslim sympathizers to political office to bring about favorable legislation toward Islam and support potential sympathizers by block voting.

Nominate. That’s called democracy, Kat. Got a problem with democracy? And I don’t see many Muslim sympathizers sticking up for Muslims these days, do you?

5. Take control of as much of Hollywood, the press, TV, radio and the Internet as possible by buying the related corporations or a controlling stock.

Sure, that’s the ticket. How many prominant Muslim producers and directions are there? Editors? Publishers? Maybe Mel Gibson is their secret weapon, eh? But he got drunk and blew it.

8. Encourage Muslims to penetrate the White House, specifically with Islamists who can articulate a marvelous and peaceful picture of Islam. Acquire government positions and get membership in local school boards. Train Muslims as medical doctors to dominate the medical field, research and pharmaceutical companies. (Ever notice how numerous Muslim doctors in America are, when their countries need them more desperately than America?) Take over the computer industry. Establish Middle Eastern restaurants throughout the U.S. to connect planners of Islamization in a discreet way.

What crap is this guy trying to peddle? What Islamists have keys to the West Wing? Muslim doctors coming here…most Americans had ancestors who came here for a better life.

Middle Eastern restaurants? Are you kidding? You can’t be serious. Talking points like that appeal to IGNORANT PEOPLE. It is designed to foment PREJUDICE in anything that could be possibly tainted with Islam. Uh-oh. Look. A new Lebanese restaurant. Bet they serve hummas. Next thing, they’ll be trying to take over Hollywood, the White House, and the entire U.S. educational system.

Who is the loon now?

Kat

Well, I don’t like what muslims are doing in Sudan, Nigeria, Daefur~~~~~~~~~~but i am not going to strap on a gutblowing vest and blow up planes or burn mosques because muslims have burned hundreds of churches in Nigeria. I am not going to go to a muslim country and blow up hotels, or schools, or pizzarias. That is just plain demented and evil.

http://kalipuna.blogspot.com Dr. Mathews

The level of paranoia here is astounding. Wasn’t it Edmund Burke who said:

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear!

Coming to think of it, he also said:

To make anything very terrible, obscurity seems in general to be necessary.

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Yes, Kat, that is evil. As were the British terrorists that were just caught. As are the Saudi financiers who are now sending money to radical Muslims in Banglidesh. Or Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines. Or the ones that bombed Bali, Madrid, etc.

Like you, I’m not going to strap a bomb on myself for any of that. And I doubt the Lebanese guy I know who owns the local gas station – a Sunni Muslim whose son who was born here and was a US Marine – will either. Neither will the restaurant owner.

Kat

Don’t forget the earthquake relief muslim charities to whom many good people gave money for earthquake victims and it was sent to the British gutblowers wanna be’s to finance their martyrdom aspirations. These guys were restaurant owners, Heathrow employees, engineers, college students–their neighbors say they were kind, well mannered, very devout, etc.

Ravo

A HUSBAND and wife arrested in the British terror raids allegedly planned to take their six-month-old baby on a mid-air suicide mission.

“I simply cannot believe he could have been involved in a plot like this. He is RELIGIOUS and seemed to love his family,” the neighbour said.

You don’t kill blow up your baby over politics.

You’ve heard the phrase “it’s the economy, stupid” ??

It’s the religion, stupid!

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Ravo.

OK. Sooo, tell me. Is every Muslim with a child hopping on planes with their newborn so they can blow up the whole thing.

Perhaps if we spent more time concerned out the SOURCES of the shit – extremist mullahs, financial transfers, etc. – that condemning an entire religion, then we’d be getting somewhere.

In a way, the US and UK gov’ts are…that’s how they nailed these assholes. But condemning an entire religion is a waste of time.

http://kalipuna.blogspot.com Dr. Mathews

But condemning an entire religion is a waste of time.
…and reeks of bigotry. (bigot – One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.)

First, what stopped this plot was law enforcement. Law enforcement. Not a military invasion of Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, or Iraq. Old-fashioned surveillance, development of human sources, putting pieces together, and cooperation with foreign police and intelligence services.

Second, the conspiracy … will likely be home-grown, another of the growing jihad “fashion” in Europe that comprises the new street gangs of this world. It is not a religious movement, it is not fundamentalism. (…)

Third, if al Qaeda was involved (allegedly from Pakistan), we can thank the failure of the war in Afghanistan and the cozying up to Musharraf to destroy them.

Fourth, (…)

Fifth, the plot again reveals how ill-equipped the U.S. Government has been in anticipating plausible attack scenarios and taking steps to prevent them. Liquid bombs were so hard to figure out? Al Qaeda already tried it. (…)

Sixth, and most important, we must end our involvement in Iraq and sharply refocus our presence in the region. The war presidentâ€™s approach is not working. Itâ€™s a diversion from the real threat. (…)

Kat

This was something I saved after 911. It still applies…maybe should be directed to British muslims.
A Memo to American Muslims
“It is time that we acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the US are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim World. If you disagree, then prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with.”
In the wake of September 11, Dr. M. A. Muqtedar Khan calls for soul searching, reflection and reassessment among US Muslims.

In the name of Allah, the most Benevolent and the Most Merciful. May this memo find you in the shade of Islam enjoying the mercy, the protection and the grace of Allah.

I am writing this memo to you all with the explicit purpose of inviting you to lead the American Muslim community in soul searching, reflection and reassessment.

What happened on September 11th in New York and Washington DC will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values.

The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are unIslamic. This is truly sad.

Even if it were true that Israel and the US are enemies of the Muslim World, wonder what is preventing them from unleashing their nuclear arsenal against Muslims, a response that mercilessly murders thousands of innocent people, including hundreds of Muslims is absolutely indefensible. If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question, would Muhammad (pbuh) sanction such an act?

While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).

Muslims, including American Muslims have been practicing hypocrisy on a grand scale. They protest against the discriminatory practices of Israel but are silent against the discriminatory practices in Muslim states. In the Gulf one can see how laws and even salaries are based on ethnic origin. This is racism, but we never hear of Muslims protesting against them at International fora.

The Israeli occupation of Palestine is perhaps central to Muslim grievance against the West. While acknowledging that, I must remind you that Israel treats its one million Arab citizens with greater respect and dignity than most Arab nations treat their citizens. Today Palestinian refugees can settle and become citizens of the United States but in spite of all the tall rhetoric of the Arab world and Quranic injunctions (24:22) no Muslim country except Jordan extends this support to them.

While we loudly and consistently condemn Israel for its ill treatment of Palestinians we are silent when Muslim regimes abuse the rights of Muslims and slaughter thousands of them. Remember Saddam and his use of chemical weapons against Muslims (Kurds)?. Remember Pakistani armyâ€™s excesses against Muslims (Bengalis)?. Remember the Mujahideen of Afghanistan and their mutual slaughter? Have we ever condemned them for their excesses? Have we demanded international intervention or retribution against them? Do you know how the Saudis treat their minority Shias? Have we protested the violation of their rights? But we all are eager to condemn Israel; not because we care for rights and lives of the Palestinians, we donâ€™t. We condemn Israel because we hate â€œthem”.

Muslims love to live in the US but also love to hate it. Many openly claim that the US is a terrorist state but they continue to live in it. Their decision to live here is testimony that they would rather live here than anywhere else. As an Indian Muslim, I know for sure that nowhere on earth, including India, will I get the same sense of dignity and respect that I have received in the US. No Muslim country will treat me as well as the US has. If what happened on September 11th had happened in India, the biggest democracy, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughtered in riots on mere suspicion and there would be another slaughter after confirmation. But in the US, bigotry and xenophobia has been kept in check by media and leaders. In many places hundreds of Americans have gathered around Islamic centers in symbolic gestures of protection and embrace of American Muslims. In many cities Christian congregations have started wearing hijab to identify with fellow Muslim women. In patience and in tolerance ordinary Americans have demonstrated their extraordinary virtues.

It is time that we acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the US are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim World. If you disagree than prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with. If you do not leave and do not acknowledge that you would rather live here than anywhere else, know that you are being hypocritical.

It is time that we faced these hypocritical practices and struggled to transcend them. It is time that American Muslim leaders fought to purify their own lot.

For over a decade we have watched as Muslims in the name of Islam have committed violence against other Muslims and other peoples. We have always found a way to reconcile the vast distance between Islamic values and Muslim practices by pointing out to the injustices committed upon Muslims by others. The point however is this â€“ our belief in Islam and commitment to Islamic values is not contingent on the moral conduct of the US or Israel. And as Muslims can we condone such inhuman and senseless waste of life in the name of Islam?

The biggest victims of hate filled politics as embodied in the actions of several Muslim militias all over the world are Muslims themselves. Hate is the extreme form of intolerance and when individuals and groups succumb to it they can do nothing constructive. Militias like the Taliban have allowed their hate for the West to override their obligation to pursue the welfare of their people and as a result of their actions not only have thousands of innocent people died in America, but thousands of people will die in the Muslim World.

Already, half a million Afghans have had to leave their homes and their country. The war has not yet begun. It will only get worst. Hamas and Islamic Jihad may kill a few Jews, women and children included, with their suicide bombs and temporarily satisfy their lust for Jewish blood, but thousands of Palestinians then pay the price for their actions.

The culture of hate and killing is tearing away at the moral fabric of the Muslim society. We are more focused on â€œthe otherâ€ and have completely forgotten our duty to Allah. In pursuit of the inferior jihad we have sacrificed the superior jihad.

Islamic resurgence, the cherished ideals of which pursued the ultimate goal of a universally just and moral society has been hijacked by hate and call for murder and mayhem. If Bin Laden were an individual then we would have no problem. But unfortunately Bin Laden has become a phenomenon — a cancer eating away at the morality of our youth, and undermining the spiritual health of our future.

Today the century old Islamic revival is in jeopardy because we have allowed insanity to prevail over our better judgment. Yes, the US has played a hand in the creation of Bin Laden and the Taliban, but it is we who have allowed them to grow and gain such a foothold. It is our duty to police our world. It is our responsibility to prevent people from abusing Islam. It is our job to ensure that Islam is not misrepresented. We should have made sure that what happened on Sept. 11th should never have happened.

It is time the leaders of the American Muslim community woke up and realized that there is more to life than competing with the American Jewish lobby for power over US foreign policy. Islam is not about defeating Jews or conquering Jerusalem. It is about mercy, about virtue, about sacrifice and about duty. Above all it is the pursuit of moral perfection. Nothing can be further away from moral perfection than the wanton slaughter of thousands of unsuspecting innocent people.

I hope that we will now rededicate our lives and our institutions to the search for harmony, peace and tolerance. Let us be prepared to suffer injustice rather than commit injustices. After all it is we who carry the divine burden of Islam and not others. We have to be morally better, more forgiving, more sacrificing than others, if we wish to convince the world about the truth of our message. We cannot even be equal to others in virtue, we must excel.

It is time for soul searching. How can the message of Muhammad (pbuh) who was sent as mercy to mankind become a source of horror and fear? How can Islam inspire thousands of youth to dedicate their lives to killing others? We are supposed to invite people to Islam not murder them.

The worst exhibition of Islam happened on our turf. We must take first responsibility to undo the evil it has manifest. This is our mandate, our burden and also our opportunity.
————————————————————————

Muqtedar Khan, Ph.D.
Director of International Studies, Adrian College, MI
Association of Muslim Social Scientists
Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy.

Ravo

Jonathan..

You are one of those who don’t realize yet that even Mein Kampf is less imperialistic and supremist than Islam.

Islam “loves death more than we love life”. Certainly, their actions show they hate that which they are taught to hate from day one of their lives, ….Jews and infidels etc. ….more than they love their own children, as they blow up their children – babies even – to kill innocent people from other societies.

Extremist Mullahs?? According to those studying these subjects:

“There isn’t any mainstream Mullah known to NOT interpret Islam the same way Osama bin-Laden and other prominent Islamic radicals do. ”

But you are correct about going after sources – as one commentor on another site wrote:

“the primary focus to eliminate Terror must be to identify the source and expunge the breeding grounds–namely the Mosques and Immams who incite hate and loathing–the financiers who fund the missions–and the Nations who support and arm the individual Muslims who morph into suicide homicide killers–”

And another “right on” commentator:

“CAIR and the rest can talk about the small minority crap all they want. […] There is something deeply wrong with that belief system when it allows for this type of behavior. ”

Yet another commentor wrote about the constant apologists for this death cult (liberals).

— as being depraved in a manner COMPLIMENTARY TO tolerating the depravity of the islamofascists.

Since when is it bigotry to call attention to a group that is calling for the wholesale domination and/or slaughter of other groups (infidels)….and acting on it….simply because they are “unbelievers”?

Truly you see the world upside down. The group that seeks to kill innocents from other societies is not bigoted?

You sir, are a part of the problem – as in

â€œNot just tolerating it, but justifying it.”

http://kalipuna.blogspot.com Dr. Mathews

Ravo,
You might read the post by Kat before yours. In particular, where it says:

While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).

Kat

This is an American muslim–most of the mullahs who rot the brains of young American muslims are Wahabi trained. I am afraid there may not be many like him. A young muslim(I think) once posted a letter to America and I wish I knew where to find it–it was a warning about what mosques and islamic schools in America teach and it was scary. They teach Osama’s version of the koran–not the good prof’s.

http://kalipuna.blogspot.com Dr. Mathews

I believe we are all striving for the same thing: A peaceful and just world where different peoples can at least coexist in mutual respect and trust. Granted, we may agree to disagree on the means for achieving that. My only caution is that we not reach the extreme point of writing off an entire group (whether it be national, religious or ethnic), by attributing it homogeneous and – in this case – negative characteristics. Doing so ignores what Edward Said calls the “the internal dynamics and plurality of every civilization” and ends up alienating those (the majority) who have no axe to grind with us. Once we travel down that road, our prejudices may have the unfortunate result of turning into self fulfilling prophecies.

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Bravo, Dr. Mathews. Excellent letter entry, Kat.

As these posts continue, I’m seeing more and more actual continuity. Yes, it’s those Wahhabiist (OK, I have no idea how to spell that word) teachings that are causing this. And, yes, I’d bet that it’s larger that a ‘small minority’. But if it was as prominent as some here have suggested, we would have been constatnly at war for centuries.

Look, it’s obvious that, as a whole, Islam is in a f*cked up state right now. The Middle East, South Asia, Europe. Lots of hate being preached. Daily.

Ravo

Dr. Mathews,

Nearly none of the rest of the world’s civilians, no matter their religion, no matter how anguished or angry at injustices we perceive to have received from others, are individually targeting innocent people we don’t even know to eliminate from the Earth to please our God.

At least 25% of Muslims approved of 7/7 as an appropriate backlash for their perceived grievances! Islam permits killing of infidels totally unrelated to those grievances, ….ok to kill simply because they are infidels!

Talk about bigotry!

“attributing it homogeneous and – in this case – negative characteristics”

No, – documenting them as they EXIST.

So let’s cut the despicable attempt at moral equivalency.

Re: innocence – When Islam references the word innocence, the word means something much different then what you (or the rest of the world) are thinking when you use it.

From what I’ve read, innocence is not an “attribute” that can ever be conferred upon an unbeliever.

It’s likely the important parts have been left out of that quote about forgiveness as well, as Jews are considered to be apes and monkey, and Muslims are taught to hate them from the day they are born.

Talk about bigotry!!!

Ravo

But if it was as prominent as some here have suggested, we would have been constantly at war for centuries.

“Blasting a passenger airliner out of the sky, killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children, is NEVER acceptable. Under any circumstances. There is NEVER an excuse.

A terrible tragedy costing Muslim lives in Lebanon or Iraq or Afghanistan is never ever an excuse for terrorism here.

It is totally unacceptable, totally wrong. What one party perceives as a wrong, no matter how strongly they feel, does not, in turn, justify another wrong being done to avenge it.

And until every single member of the Muslim community believes that and preaches thatâ€”from an ordinary parent to imam or madrassa teacherâ€”terrorism can’t be beaten. “

Muslims LIVE to commit backlash. Yet that someone might backlash against THEM is always the first thing they whine and scream about, – usually about 10 minutes after one of them subjects the rest of the world to yet another horror.

Kat

Unless America’s muslims grow some balls and stand up to the Wahabists, things will not change. The Wahabists are buying the minds of young American muslims by building fancy mosques, providing terrorist teachers and preachers, and providing hate literature. It is up to muslims to stand up to this crap but they won’t. Maybe they believe what these hate mongers preach–that one day the moonbat flag could fly over Downing Street and Pennsylvania Avenue. That is what those terrorist mullahs from Mecca teach them.

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Ravo – You seem to really hate Islam as a religion and Muslims as individuals. Almost as much as you say they hate us.

Kat

Hey–good for this Brit–telling the truth. That’s what needs to be done instead of this PC crap and islam means peace crap. I think Ravo hates terrorists….these days that means muslims. Not all muslims are terrorists but these days all terrorists are muslims.
“When will the Muslim community in this country accept an absolute, undeniable, total truth: that Islamic terrorism is their problem?” wrote John Stevens, former commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, in a Sunday newspaper.

In an inflammatory opinion column, he called on Muslims to “stop the denial, endless fudging and constant wailing that somehow it is everyone else’s problem and, if Islamic terrorism exists at all, they are somehow the main victims”.

Lord Stevens, whose continuing responsibilities in Britain include the inquiry into Princess Diana’s death, also defended “racial profiling” at airports and other security hotspots, saying resources were being wasted on searching everybody out of a sense of fairness or delicacy.

Hmmm … So someone like George Washington Gordon would probably not be a terrorist by your criteria. Interesting. Revealing. So Long.

Eileen

William H.,

You need an editor, a psychotherapist, and a hospice to help you with your own death throes.

Spare us any more of your diatribes, please.

andrew

The fact that the Islamo-fascists hate our foreign policy is a strong indicator that there’s a lot right with our foreign policy. Same can be said for WWII when we were fighting the Nazis.

Ravo

Almost as much as you say they hate us.

Jonathan: I don’t say they hate us, Islam says they hate us. Jews and infidels are objects of their hate.

They’ve acted on that hate in the most horrendous of ways.

You are a typical liberal. Turn the accusation of hate, not on the killers, but on the ones objecting to actions of killers.

That is Despicable!

There are those that want to rid the earth of us merely because we are infidels and thus deserve to die, – and they act on it.

But liberals pontificate that we who object to their program to do so, are the hateful ones!

Those who live peaceably and don’t wish to do me violence, or come to our countries for the purpose of replacing our laws, our government with theirs … I have no quarrel with.

Truly….liberals turn the world upside down.

As in…the good are bad, and the good are especially bad when they are intolerant of evil.

How do you feel about Hitler and his group? Do you have a fondness for that cult ? After all, I’m sure they had their nice moments with friends and neighbors too.

Supremacy, world dominion; cleansing the earth of infidels… you find you like that?

Tolerance of evil IS evil.

DOES a sane person feel warm and fuzzy about a cult that teaches it’s members that their highest obligation is to conquer unbelievers, and their highest calling is to kill Jews and infidels randomly in order to achieve the highest reward; a sexual orgy in the hereafter?

As far as Muslim individuals, those that haven’t a clue about their obligations to commit or support jihad, and have no interest in committing violence….what’s to hate about them? …and I don’t hate them.

But if called upon by the mullahs for jihad, which is an obligation if asked, will they instead accept our fate of being treated as an infidel, perhaps killed as an apostate, or will they heed the call of their religion?

Kat

This is the whole very excellent article by the British ex-cop. He also addresses the terrorist tools who pander to and excuse terrorists–those poor victims with a grievance which some believe gives them a licence to kill. I blame the latter for the deaths of innocent victims of terrorism because they give these idiots moral support–in anti-America marches, ANSWER , etc. Hezbollah must be smiling at all the Jew hating marches that took place in Canada and the US over the weekend…placards with that terrorist leader’s(Nasralla) face plastered all ovewr the place.
IF YOU’RE A MUSLIM – IT’S YOUR PROBLEM

WHEN will the Muslims of Britain stand up to be counted?

When will they declare, loud and clear, with no qualifications or quibbles about Britain’s foreign policy, that Islamic terrorism is WRONG?

Most of all, when will the Muslim community in this country accept an absolute, undeniable, total truth: that Islamic terrorism is THEIR problem? THEY own it. And it is THEIR duty to face it and eradicate it.

To stop the denial, endless fudging and constant wailing that somehow it is everyone else’s problem and, if Islamic terrorism exists at all, they are somehow the main victims.

Because until that happens the problem will never be resolved. And there will be more 7/7s and, sometime in the future, another airplane plot will succeed with horrific loss of innocent life.

Equally important, those British politicians who have seemed obsessed with pandering to, and even encouraging, this state of denial, must throw off their politically-correct blinkers and recognise the same truthâ€”that Muslim terrorism in Britain is the direct responsibility of British Muslims.

If only they would follow the lead of Home Secretary John Reid, whose tough, pragmatic, clear-sighted approach has been a breath of fresh air. Only then can they properly work out how to tackle it.

For instance, every airport in Britain is in chaos over the plane bomb-plot alert as every passenger is subjected to rigorous security checks. Why? They take lots of time, lots of staff, and are extremely expensive.

I’m a white 62-year-old 6ft 4ins suit-wearing ex-copâ€”I fly often, but do I really fit the profile of suicide bomber? Does the young mum with three tots? The gay couple, the rugby team, the middle-aged businessman?

No. But they are all getting exactly the same amount and devouring huge resources for no logical reason whatsoever. Yet the truth is Islamic terrorism in the West has been universally carried out by young Muslim men, usually of ethnic appearance, almost always travelling alone or in very small groups. A tiny percentage, I bet, of those delayed today have such characteristics.

This targeting of airport resources is called passenger profilingâ€”the Israelis invented it and they’ve got probably the safest airports and airlines in the world.

In all my years at the front line of fighting terrorism, one truth was always clear â€” communities beat terrorists, not governments or security forces. But communities can’t beat terrorism unless they have the will to do so. My heart sank this week as I saw and read the knee-jerk reaction of friends and neighbours of those arrested in this latest incident, insisting it was all a mistake and the anti-terrorist squad had the wrong people.

I have no idea whether those arrested are guilty or not. But neither have those friends and neighbours. They spoke as if it was inconceivable such a thing could happen in their community; that those arrested were all good Muslims; that Islam is a religion of peace so no Muslim could dream of planning such an act.

But we heard the same from the family and friends of the 7/7 bombers, didn’t we?

And the two young British Muslims who died as suicide bombers in Israel. Then there are the British Muslims known to have become suicide bombers in Iraq.

There is currently a huge, long-running and complex alleged Islamist bomb plot being tried at the Old Bailey. And a fistful of other cases of alleged Muslim terrorism plots such as the 21/7 London Underground case are also awaiting trial.

All this would suggest the blindingly obviousâ€”that terrorism is a major problem for the Muslim community of Britain. Of course, there will be instant squealings that this is racism. It’s not. It’s exactly the same as recognising that, during the Northern Ireland troubles that left thousands dead, the IRA were totally based in the Catholic community and the UVF in the Protestant.

And that, most importantly, IRA terrorism only began to draw to a close when that Catholic community it was based in decided as a whole that it was no longer prepared to back violence as the only way forward. Interestingly, it was Catholic revulsion over republican terrorist atrocities such as Enniskillen and Omagh that fuelled that change.

Well, Muslim terrorism in Britain is based in, has its roots in, and grows in, our Muslim community. The madmen of 7/7 and other suicide bombings didn’t hide among the Hindu communities, worship in the Sikh temples, recruit at Catholic churches, did they? It may be true that events in Iraq have angered sections of the Muslim community. I have no doubts, whatever Tony Blair says, that it was a catalyst. I also think it’s entirely fair for Muslims, if they wish, to vocally oppose Britain’s continuing involvement there.

I can recognise, too, that recent events in Lebanon inflame some people, and they want their voices of protest heard. The absolutely unacceptable problem is that this opposition is used by too many to turn a blind eye to, or excuse, terrorists in their midst.

Blasting a passenger airliner out of the sky, killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children, is NEVER acceptable. Under any circumstances. There is NEVER an excuse.

A terrible tragedy costing Muslim lives in Lebanon or Iraq or Afghanistan is never ever an excuse for terrorism here.

It is totally unacceptable, totally wrong. What one party perceives as a wrong, no matter how strongly they feel, does not, in turn, justify another wrong being done to avenge it.

And until every single member of the Muslim community believes that and preaches thatâ€”from an ordinary parent to imam or madrassa teacherâ€”terrorism can’t be beaten.

Politicians must accept this truth, and do something about it. One example would be to tackle this chaos at our airports and the passenger profiling I described earlier. Another must is to reconsider ID cards. The importance of knowing whether someone really is who they say they are has never been higher.

This must be combined with improved border controls, logging exactly who goes OUT of the country as well as who comes in should also be reconsidered, whatever the politically correct among us may say. The time terrorism suspects are kept in custody before charge has also caused dissent. Currently the maximum is 28 daysâ€”it may well be this should be reconsidered and, if necessary, raised again to, say, 42 days.

Plainly, Muslim terrorism isn’t going away. We need to consider everything in our battle to defeat it. But that’s the responsibility of all.

Not least the community where, sadly for them, it is festering.
Â

Ravo

I wonder what is it about the over-educated that prevents them from seeing the “emperor’s clothes” like the “townspeople” below so clearly do.

(below are three excerpts from three different commentators at other sites)

#1 I find it strange how many other ethnic groups have succesfully overcome poverty, discrimination, war and disease, while Muslims can’t get their [..] together no matter how much foreign aid they receive, no matter how much oil they have, and no matter how much affirmative action, social security and tolerance they receive here in Europe.

Israel started off in the middle of a wasteland right after the Holocaust, surrounded by enemies from all sides, and look where they are now.

#2 jihad crosses all educational, social and ethnic barriers.
A rich Arab is just as likely to become a jihadist as a poor Somali African.

***

#3 In fact, many of us have been faced with poverty and lack of education, but we’re not rioting in the streets, torching cars, businesses, schools and hospitals while DEMANDING our government give us more money and social programs!

Many of us who grew up poor are not plotting to blow up aircraft or ramming them into skyscrapers either.

Come to think of it, many of us who aren’t advantaged have never taken school children hostage and then shot and stabbed them either.

Gee, could it just be something to do with islam and not socio-economic background????

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Ravo

You said:

“You are a typical liberal. Turn the accusation of hate, not on the killers, but on the ones objecting to actions of killers…That is Despicable!”

But liberals pontificate that we who object to their program to do so, are the hateful ones!

Trulyâ€¦.liberals turn the world upside down.

As inâ€¦the good are bad, and the good are especially bad when they are intolerant of evil.

How do you feel about Hitler and his group? Do you have a fondness for that cult ? After all, Iâ€™m sure they had their nice moments with friends and neighbors too.

Ravo, this has gotten ridiculous. You have no idea of my overall political philosophy or level of education.

I don’t see these arguments on the typical left vs. right of Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, and Ned Lamont vs. George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld.

I simply disagree with you that Islam, as a religion, is the problem. Islam, like Christianity, is a ‘great’ religion – over a billion adherents, over a thousand years old.

Anyone can take selected quotes from the Koran (or the Bible for that matter) and to try to prove a point. Some have already been presented in the responses before us.

It seems to me that you categorize too quickly. Islam, itself, is hateful. Those that disagree with me are liberals…despicable!!

I’m not saying that because I’m offended. I’m just pointing that out.

And Hitler? Soo…because I don’t think the problemis Islam per se, I would have been blind to Hitler’s evil, eh? You seem to like to make analogies that are a far stretch.

I’ll repeat how I feel, only going a bit deeper…it’s obvious that the Islamic world is an absolute mess right now. Culturally, spiritually. Much like various Christian religions were several hundred years ago when Catholics and Protestants were slaughtering each other. The loudest voices in the Islamic world are the most radical. And hate filled. No doubt about that.

And this didn’t happen yesterday. Twenty plus years ago I was wondering why we didn’t attack Iran or Syria after Hezbollah attacked the marine barracks. Between that period and 9/11, all we did was blow out Khadafi’s tent and blow up a chemical factory in the Sudan. The first Gulf War was against a secular government.

I also agree with much of what the British ex-cop wrote. And I’ll say that I’d like see these ‘moderate’ Muslim leaders be more concerned with condemning terrorism that talking about civil rights….and that last point is often used my MOST groups who have members that commit wrongdoing.

So if you want to believe that I’m an overeducated liberal because I disagree with your view of Islam, so be it.

You see, I’m less concerned with attacking Islam as a religion as I am in trying to figure out how to destroy the radicalism. The money ties of the Wahhabists. Their ties to goverments and militias. It’s huge. It’s widespread. And we ignored it for decades.

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Someone needs to explain to both Ravo and me how to close these damn italics. : )

Ravo

Jonathan;

My italics in my former post ran to the end because the quote from others ran to the end of the post.

To end italics, sandwich the following between the less than and greater than symbols.

/i

Sorry if I was wrong about you. I get very suspicious anymore when someone accuses Jews and infidels who are protesting against the worldwide random hateful acts perpetrated against them as being the ones filled with hate.

Tiresome too, are the comparisons to Judism and Christianity.

“Neither of the latter have anything like the doctrine of jihad among their teachings.

Neither have in their Scriptures any open-ended and universal command to all believers to make war against and subjugate all unbelievers”

Eileen

Jonathan,

Perhaps I am not as forgiving as Ravo.

You said this: “I simply disagree with you that Islam, as a religion, is the problem.”

That is your problem.

That IS the problem.

Face it.

Eileen

And while in the perfect world you’d face it, Jonathan, I’m off to camp at the most beautiful lake in the world.

Stay strong, Infidels.

http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

Eileen, I’m sorry that I disagree with you regarding the concept that Islam as a whole is the problem. Have great trip. See you when you get back. You’re coming back, on what, the 22nd?

Kat

Look Jonathan–easy to solve the problem–just sell your soul to the devil and they will be happy. All you gotta do is live in a sharia state. Are you willing? These are so called moderate muslims making these demands.
{Some of the 30 moderate Muslim leaders at the meeting told Miss Kelly that important days in their two main religious festivals – Ramadan and Eid-ul-Adha – should be made public holidays for followers of the faith.
Sharia law, which is practised in large parts of the Middle East, should also be introduced in Britain, they argued. While it specifies stonings and amputations as routine punishments for crimes, Dr Pasha said he wanted it only for family affairs.
Under the law, a husband pays his wife a dowry on marriage, and money and assets are shared out between family members in specified amounts after someone dies.
‘We are willing to co-operate but there should be a partnership,’ Dr Pasha said.
‘They should understand our problems then we will understand their problems.’ }
Eileen is right–islam is the problem. Have a great holiday, Eileen!

Here we go again. Broad strokes, condemning all. From the same article:

“A recent poll suggested that a third of British Muslims would rather live under Sharia law, while a similar number said they also hope Britain will one day become an Islamic state.”

One third is by far too high and likely dangerous, but it does damage to the argument that Eileen has made in the past that moderate Muslims are radicalized as well.

Another cut and paste:

“Haras Rafiq, of the Sufi Muslim Council, said: ‘The first thing that we need to do as a community is admit there is a problem…’It is like being an alcoholic – we need to stand up and say these things and have an open and honest debate.’…Kharshid Ahmed, chairman of the British Muslim Forum, said: ‘We believe that the threat is still external – it is people coming from outside and leading the radicalisation…’We need to deal with that before people inside our communities are leading the radicalisation.’

Two prominent Muslim leaders admitting there’s a problem internally, egged on by outsiders, and it must be dealt with to stop radicalization.

And the first comment from a young Muslim:

“It’s funny – apparently these Muslim leaders who went to this meeting have forgotten one thing (and the MCB managed to remember!) that as Muslims living in a non Muslim country, we HAVE to abide by the laws of the land.

As a Muslim myself, I do not see why we should have to incorporate Sharia law when the laws of England and of Great Britain as a whole are wholly sufficient and if they were all followed properly, we would be living a peaceful life.

They want us to integrate but it seems the Muslim leaders are messing things up so much that we are now getting further and further away from integration.

Any Tom, Dick and Harry nowadays can call himself a ‘Muslim’ leader. Let’s face it guys, how many of you have been voted into that position? I don’t like the idea that someone who feels the way these leaders do is being given my voice! I want my voice back and it seems that extremists are taking away my right to live a happy life!

Why should British people suffer needlessly?”

– Yoyo, Burnley, Lancashire

Apparently not all Muslims think alike and follow these ‘moderates’.

And I still say the more pressing concern is not Islam as a religion, but thr radicalization process, money trails, weapons deals, and our own dependence on oil.