Just so you know 'bait and switch' is entirely the incorrect phrase both in definition and legally. 'Bait and switch' has nothing to do with what other consumers got, only what you got.

You were promised a reset, not on a specific day, they said they were merely targeting tuesday, they could have put it off a week, and still been true to their statement. You are getting a reset, you get to chose when. In addition, EVERYBODY is getting the same ability to test realm abilities they wouldn't have bought otherwise instead of only the people who played this weekend.

They offered a reset, you're getting two resets. This is in effect the reverse of a bait and switch.

If you attach your principles to trivial things, you trivialize yourself and your principles--hence the phrase "tempest in a teapot" ... No matter how concerned you decide to be about it, it's still just a mole hill, not a mountain.

As for sides, I think the 2 respec plan is fine as-is. I have no problem with it and believe that any "advantage" anyone gets over someone else is miniscule by itself and not even worth considering compared to the massive overall benefit to the playerbase.

I think one reset with a 2 respec plan is fine. I have no problem with it and believe that any "advantage" anyone gets over someone else is miniscule by itself and not even worth considering compared to the massive overall benefit to the playerbase.

I to prove bait and switch, to a judge or a jury, in this case would be simple, laughable to even consider but simple.

1. Clearly from reposted information, Mythic commited to a reset.

2. Clearly they encouraged players to test their realm abilities based on the fact that they will be reset. (Establishes Bait)

3. Clearly Mythic is not doing a reset.

4. Mythic is giving each character in the game 2 bankable respecs.

5. Is there a difference between a bankable respec and a complete system reset? YES (establishes Switch)

5. Because there is no reset, due to falure to fullfill a commitment to the players, those that acted in good faith are enduring an expense of one of these respecs. (Establish Deminished return to individual acting in good faith compared to others who took no action)

6. Did Mythic understand this when it decided to change its course of action and not reset but allow two respecs? YES!(Establish Culpable Intent)

&. Did Mythic take all actions necessary to insure that those who acted in good faith based on thier commitment to reset, not be penalized in any fashion relative to the player base that took no action and recieved same benefit? NO. (Compounding Intent)

Its pretty clear process, almost juvenile to prove. Definitely not worthy of pursuit though.

There's no "principle" to stand on here. Every option has trade-offs, it's just a matter of picking the one that does the most good for the most people.

If they did nothing, lots of people would get seriously screwed having spent points based on bad information.

If they do a one-time wipe, people who spent points BEFORE the wipe was announced lose the opportunity to experiment.

If they do the two /respecs, EVERYONE gets a minimum of one free pass to play with points as they see fit, in a time frame of their own choosing.

Frankly, either of the second two options is satisfactory. Neither is perfect but either is vastly preferrable to being stuck with misspent points. To frame either one as some kind of gross "injustice" on mythic's part is simply ridiculous.

For the switch to be a switch, it has to be an item that costs more than the bait. Not only that but it would be argued that you are getting a reset. In fact you're getting two of them and it isn't costing you anything.

The item doesnt have to cost more. It simply has to be different than what was committed. The commen mitigation for this is to offer something of equal or greater value to the party. Which they are also doing, however, because they offered it as a bankable and gave it to all, it cannot be used as mitigation. Thus proving cost through deminished return by those who acted in good faith.

I fail to see how this is a bad thing that happened. If they would have reset all the RPs you still would have only had the one respec. Why should they force those the specced in what they wanted to have to go back to their trainer? I know a couple of my characters are not going to use the respec because I am happy with what I bought. My other characters bought things not knowing what they were, so in their case, I do need a respec. Why should I be forced to waste my time by having to go to my trainer and spec the character that is already good to go?

"Your arguement comes down to. I know I got more than you said but I didn't get as much as someone else who didn't listen to you."

Elos,

Under what set of circumstances would there NOT be some group of people who got a little less benefit? (crickets) Exactly. None. Given that, it is best to minimized the disparity by giving more benefit to everyone. ie: A nickel's worth of difference is a lot if you give everyone a quarter. Give them a dollar and it doesn't amount to much.

A bad PR can seriously undermine the public's confidence in a company. With Mythic, this has been the case many times over. Guaranteeing products "within the next few months" (Spellcrafting) and not following through, dropping or changing definitions (Berzerker's shape changing ability being a "high level" ability), "fixed" bugs not actually fixed (level 50 styles)... The list goes on.

After a time, the public, logically, cannot trust the company any more. This just happens to be where some of us put our collective foot down and say "no more." We've had enough.

In a competetive game, especially one which is so time consuming, every minute advantage is analized by some. A 3% increase may be huge to some of us. Especially when, in order to gain that 3% it may take 40 hours of game play.

Call it Bait & Switch, call it bad PR, call it what you will, most will agree that it was not a good way to introduce a new portion of a game.

I personally would rather that they stuck to their original plan. Someday, 6 months from now once all the prerequisits for RAs and all the "good" descriptions of the RAs are finallized, then introduce the respec option. Until then, too many people are in limbo as to when to fully take advantage of this new option.

Here is an example of how my character will be hurt by not having everyone's RAs wiped:

My Cleric (lvl 47, 20 RPs): Spent all points on Lifter for testing. Spent one respec to get back to what they really wanted. Specced up to get full power. Found this wasn't so good. Respeced to give a higher damage output. Done.

New Cleric: (lvl 47, 20 RPs): Spent all points on making best PvE ability. Made lvl 50. During that time, he learns all about the RAs from those who tested. Respec to get a high quality template. Not quite what they personally wanted or Mythic changes something. Respec to get that "right" spec.

> "Your arguement comes down to. I know I got more than you said but I didn't get as much as someone else who didn't listen to you."

Yes, you are correct. But look at it like this.

A is a person who read something that Mythic said, and believed them, and acted accordingly by trying out one or more realm abilities that under normal circumstance they would avoid.

B is a person who read something that Mythic said, thought, "yeah, I'll believe it when I see it", and didn't buy any realm abilities.

Now, everyone gets two respecs.

A has to use one respec to be able to buy the realm abilities they want. B does not.

Isn't it obvious that no matter how you slice it, A is at a disadvantage to B. How do you think this will affect A's future decisions? Why would anyone EVER base a decision on a promise by Mythic in the future?

"Isn't it obvious that no matter how you slice it, A is at a disadvantage to B. How do you think this will affect A's future decisions? Why would anyone EVER base a decision on a promise by Mythic in the future?
"

Unfortunately, most people who support Mythic's decision in here are B. Of course they wouldn't want a WIPE. They don't want to lose their advantages over other people. I don't blame them but they shouldn't come here and accuse A of being greedy. What's wrong with being fair to all?

I think the main point of this thread is about fairness. It's not about how many more respecs you're gonna get. So please stop come here and tell us how we should be happier because we get more than Mythic has promised. It's true that we're getting more than Mythic promised but that doesn't make us happy because some people who didn't follow Mythic words were given an obvious advantage. DO NOT come here and call us greedy bastards when you're worrying that you'll lose that advantage over us. I wouldn't have bought any RAs if i had known a decision like this. Are we crying for something? yes we're crying for something and that something is fairness. This is a war game. When us paying customers are treated differently (unfairly), we have every right to complain because we pay money to play this game. We're the ones who followed the company's words only to get shafted a few days later.

No, I can not. I do not have the opportunity to easily level my character up. This presents a Real-world time disadvantage to me. And as we all know, levels also provide you the opportunity to gather RPs easier.

Simply put,without a wipe you are removing a opportunity from me. And no, I will not spend 200 RW hours at RvR in order to gain another 20 RPs so that I can "test" the PvE skills that the other "Non-testing, New Cleric" got.

You and I discussed this matter in private messages, you refused to see our side of the arguement.

I would like to ask you, why are you so set on seeing lots of players get the shaft and have to use one of their respecs up straight away ?

If there was a total realm ability reset and everyone then got given 2 respecs to use when they wanted, isnt that fair for everyone concerned ? wouldnt the VAST MAJORITY of players be served well that way.

Only tell me you would have missed your shot at trying skills out, IF you NEVER intend to use the plethora of information posted all over the web about the new abilities, posted by the very people you now want to hurt.

But, knowing that the end-game (that which I will be spending most of my time doing) will be RvR, I would much rather test out RvR abilities. If Mythic changes something or my initial RvR spec-guess was not correct, then I have no recourse.

The New Cleric would then have an Opportunity to refine their RvR (end-game, hundred of hours to play) style that I would not.

It's a choice and my example was not all-encompassing, just one example (all that is needed) to prove that harm could be done.

The polarization on this issue is amazing. I think it boils down to one side saying it's not fair, and the other said just says so what, who cares. There will never be agreement since one side just doesn't care what the other side says. But I'll still try.

You're playing a chess game. The referee says take your rook off the board. Trust me, you'll be better off and it will be fun. Player A does. Player B doesn't. He then puts a queen where player A's rook was and tells player A that he's now better off. The referee then takes player B's rook, and tells player B to put a queen anywhere he wants. Now the referee gives each player another queen to place anywhere on the board.

Player A asks the referee why he was penalized for listening to him. The referee ignores him. Player B doesn't see a problem. Player A says one of his bonus queens is trapped in corner, while Player B has both his queens in great position. Player B calls player A a whiner, and says to quit being a baby and play. After all, he got 2 queens for just a rook, just like he did. Player B says if it really turns out not to have been fair after a few moves, we can resolve it later.

Player B slaughters player A but it takes 20 turns, not just a few. Player B says, well I guess you were right! It was quite an advantage. Lets play another game and not count this one. The referee ignores Player B and declares Player B the winner and moves on.

No matter what Mythic does someone somewhere will or might get more benefit than someone somewhere else.

Sstair,

I am not saying it was totally fair. I am saying you and everyone got more functionality than we were originally told we were going to have. Everyone got the ability to respec twice, when we were originally told no respec, but they would do a wipe to correct errors admittedly caused by incomplete documentation. Some people may be forced to use one of two things they never had before Monday. Leaving them with one more than they thought they were going to have last week.

I suppose as Avelyn said I do look at the glass as half full when I was told it would be empty. Whereas everyone who is complaining about this is complaining their glass is half full even though they didn't think they were going to get a glass at all and some others have a full glass.

No the crux of my arguement is Mythic committed to doing one thing, encouraged players to take action based on the commitment, then delivered something completely different. In the process of which those who acted in good faith on the commitment from mythic, potentially, highly likely, will be placed at a disadvantage to those who did not act based on mythics commitment.

Two respecs are awesome! Thanks

But you gave those to all players and are now telling me I must use one, when you committed that I could expiriment with all the realm abilities and YOU would wipe them clean, NOT I could wipe them clean.

Thus the difference, one path, reset is at no cost to the individual player.

The other path is two respecs, players that acted in good faith based on your commitment of a reset must incur the loss of flexibility afforded to those who took no action, and expend a respec due to your lack of fullfilling your commitment.

Promised reset. Delievered Respec. Reset not equal to 2 respec. Reset equal to no cost to individual player. 2 Respec costs individual player wh acted in good faith, loss of flexibility for the future changes in the game. I must incur cost to achieve promise. I still have one respec to spend. Net cost of achieveing what mythic origanally committed to: Lose of flexibility.

Why should I burn one of my respecs to change something that I was testing for the good of the gaming community??? (those of us who actually TESTED ... not experiment with specs that we thought would be good or funny or something...)

Last week I had not spent any of my horded points bacause I was going to let others experiment with them tell me about them then decide what I wanted to get. After that Mythic anounced spend them all you want we will reset them for you next week. When I saw that I spent all my points willy nilly randomly in anything just to see what it did. For example I trained in swimming knowing it was a stupid skill i didn't want but i just wanted to see how fast it would move me through water.

Come tuesday I found out I was penalized for beliving what Mythic said, I am now down one free reset.

Does this make sense?
If I was not prommised a catagoric reset without consumption of a perminent mark I would never have spent those point or at the very least I would have been choosy when I spent them.