Manuski means humanism in Marathi. A term used by Dr B.R.Ambedkar, a great humanist of India. This blog want stimulating debate without any prejudices of caste, religion and nationalism. It is about humanism and human rights. All freethinkers are welcome to contribute and participate in stimulating debates.

Saturday, December 24, 2016

BSP is the only alternative at the moment to defeat the forces of Hindutva in Uttar Pradesh : Bhanwar Meghwanshi.

In Conversation with Bhanwar
Meghwanshi

Bhanwar Meghwanshi is an incisive and forthright contemporary
voice of the progressive Dalit movement in Rajasthan. He has untiringly participated in campaigns
and movements across the country, creating awareness on communalism, casteism,
gender violence, globalisation, displacement and so on. Born on February 25,
1975 in village Siridiyas in Bhilwara district into a Dalit weaver family,
Meghwanshi was indoctrinated at the fragile age of 13, by the Rashtriya
Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS), with whom he spent five active years. He was made the
head teacher (mukhya shikshak) of his village’s ‘shakha’ (camp) of the Sangh, and
later on, its district office head. He was part of the first ‘kar seva’ that
set out to demolish the Babri Masjid, but was arrested before reaching Ayodhya
and spent 10 days in the Agra jail. Thereafter, a certain incident completely
shattered his faith in the RSS, making him realise their extreme, anti-Dalit stance.
He severed ties with them, openly taking a stance against them.

After leaving the RSS, Meghwanshi worked full-time on communal harmony,
brotherhood and peace, which he continues to, till date. He was vociferous in
his writings against the Gujarat carnage of 2002, and took part in the documentation
and report writing with members of the Concerned Citizens’ Tribunal formed for
the Gujarat victims. He also published the magazine Diamond India between 2002
and 2012, which lent voice to struggles against communalism and casteism. He
broke many stereotypes and myths regarding minority communities, uncovering
truths.

Bhanwar Meghawanshi speaks out his heart in this candid conversation
with Vidya Bhushan Rawat.

VB: What is the biggest challenge before the Dalit movement at the
moment?

BM: There are many; both external
and within. It is really worrisome the way communal forces have coopted the
movement. Today, a large section of Dalit leadership is getting trapped by
Sangh Parivar with their lips sealed due to lure of power. Dalit representatives no longer speak about Dalits.
Bureaucracy and those occupying seats of power are busy repressing Dalit
voices. And the Sangh agenda is that to either take them together but if they
don’t join hand then trap them false cases.

Hence we are witnessing the
repression of Dalits more vigorously. The Dalit movement is also losing some of
its innate fervor. It appears befuddled, and many a time, seems to lack clarity
about whom it is standing with. It is unable to discern between friends and
foes. Dalals who have sprung within
the community have distorted the fundamental spirit of the movement. Most of
the Dalit leaders are in the twilight of their careers. The challenges are new
but their methods are old. The new generation Dalits want something different,
but a direction seems to elude them.

And then, there are internal conflicts.
The caste ‘layers’ amongst Dalits themselves threaten to be tainted with the
same brush of casteism. Many Dalit castes are so busy buttressing their own identities;
they have completely turned away from the work of annihilating caste. The
firming up of caste identities within Dalits is the biggest hurdle in the fight
against casteism, and our weakest point. Such a situation is ripe ground for
the Sangh, to further its disruptive work, even as they constantly attempt to
turn small differences between Dalits into permanent enmities.

VB: What would you speak on the close ranking of Ambedkar and Left
forces post-Rohith Vemula’s institutional murder was short-lived, and the
distance, in fact, widened in the recent JNU elections.

BM: Yes, the two forces did
converge and there was hope that the ‘Jai Bhim’-‘Laal Salam’ jugalbandhi would
resonate further, stronger. That was the need for the hour. It was heartening
that the country’s Left had started accepting questions of caste, and appeared standing
by the Ambedkarite movement. But the confrontation between the Left Unity and Birsa
Ambedkar Phule Students’ Association (BAPSA) in the recent JNU elections
appears to signal the end of the unity seen in the aftermath of Rohith Vemula.
This was also cited as a cause for concern by many, but I would like to see
this whole sequence a bit differently.

We need to understand that
India’s Left and Ambedkar groups were never natural allies, they’ve always
remained two distinctive streams. Yes, they did converge on the streets over
Rohith, but that does not mean a convergence of ideologies. In my opinion, it
was a spontaneous solidarity, over a particular issue, which had to end sooner
or later. If another issue comes along, they will meet yet again, part yet again.

But to conclude, on the other
hand, that the JNU elections represent an ideological tussle may also be hasty.
The Left has a chance to self-reflect. BAPSA and Left Unity have to arrive at a
consensus. Merely election based rivalry cannot become the dividing line
between friendship and enmity.

VB: The Left has committed many mistakes. Not only in non-acceptance of
caste, but also in their class character. Their leadership has never really
been in the hands of the poor. When we forge a political movement, every
campaign, including that of Ambedkarites and Dalits, needs to be healthily
analysed, because if none of us had faults, brahmanism could never be so
strong?

BM: I agree that this is not the
time only to criticise the Left. But who will provide an answer to the fact
that the Left, till date, has swept questions of caste under the carpet? Why
are there no Dalits or Adivasis who have been able to come forward in their leadership?
You (the Left) will talk of class, but not caste; this cannot be. You will cry
hoarse about poverty but not look at caste in the face, this cannot be. The
Left in India needs to fight brahmanism as honestly and responsibly as they
talk against capitalism and imperialism.

At the same time, the Dalit-Bahujan
movement needs to take a peek into itself; a healthy introspection, that is
best for its rights. The Ambedkarite movement has to free itself from its
casteist character, and at the same time, save itself from brahmanism.

VB: There is much talk of the Dalit-Bahujan unity but the only common
point of the alliance amongst its constituents is anti-brahminism. Don’t you think a need for some positive
programme to bring the Dalits and Bahujan together? As Babasaheb said, graded
inequalities exist, and it would also be a mistake to think that within the Bahujan
polarisation, all forces are equal? How can there be any unity unless there is
a talk of equality?

BM: The forces within the Dalit Bahujan
are certainly not uniform. The ‘unity’ we see is a show on stage. The forces
appear to come together in public only to condemn brahminism. But in reality, what expectation can we have
of this alliance, when the ‘backward’ sections amongst the Bahujan stream of
thought are the biggest practitioners of casteism today? They are steeped in
hypocrisy, rituals and religious humbug. It would be naïve to expect those very
sections who are vanguards of brahminism today, to fight against it. Take a
look at the cases of Dalit atrocities. In many places, the main accused in 90%
of cases is from OBCs. How do we align with those who are perpetrating violence
on us every day? This is a grave situation, and our deluded leaders are far
removed from both scientific and ground realities, when they insist on singing
the tune of ‘Dalit-backward’ unity, and of ‘indigenous communities’ (moolniwasi) unity.

Dalit-Bahujan unity is a mere
figment of our imagination. Today, some of the so-called Bahujan organisations
are often led by brahman leaders. As long as the backwards stand at the
forefront of casteism and continue perpetrating atrocities on Dalits, they will
remain as much our opponents, just as the so-called upper castes.

VB: The media highlighted Rohith Vemula’s murder quite a bit. Many felt
perhaps, it has now become more sensitive to Dalit questions. But it almost
completely bypassed Delta Meghwal’s case. So many cruel incidents take place in
villages, and the media just forgets. Neither Dalit nor communist organsation
now approach the people of Bhagana, who are still fighting for the last four
years. The media’s nowhere to be seen. Why is this so?

BM: I don’t agree the mainstream
media gave any special attention to Rohith Vemula’s death. It is only when
social media started making it a big issue that the print and electronic media,
true to its casteist character, started negative reporting. They created myths
around Rohith’s caste, made him out to be a beef-eating seditious. Every
effort was made to cast a slur on him. In Delta Meghwal’s case too, the media’s
response was negative. First, they tried character assassination, and then the
whole issue was simply buried quietly. In Rohith’s case, the accused were the
government representatives, but in Delta’s they were of the business class; those
who actually run the show of media houses and TV channels. When people from
their own clan turned out to be the accused, the media naturally started
wagging its tail. Dalit atrocities are not sexy stories. The rape of Dalit
women do not awaken the sensitivity of the casteist media. Whether Bhagana or
Dangawaas, Delta or Una, only the social media is taking it forward. The fact
is that media is more worried about its advertisers than giving news about our
memorandums.

VB: You have been associated with many movements like the MKSS, Right
to Food, PUCL etc. Do Dalits have any place in these movements?

BM: There has never been space
for Dalits in anything that’s ‘mainstream’, nor is it there at present.
Everywhere, Dalits are simply showpieces. There is no difference in the
character of social movements. Nowhere is independent Dalit leadership
accepted. Everyone loves the backward Dalit, but no one likes the outspoken,
assertive Dalit. Civil society should also become democratic, inclusive, and
stop using Dalits as labels.

VB: What is the state of Ambedkarite/Dalit movements in Rajasthan?

BM: Rajasthan has traditionally
been a feudal state. We have never had a social/political/cultural stream of
protest. So much so that even during the bhakti movement, no one like Kabir or
Raidas was born here. A shroud of subservience has always dominated. Mental
subservience has been rampant for ages. During the Dalit liberation struggles
too, Rajasthan’s participation has been negligible. During the Poona pact, the
so-called leaders of Dalits of the state were distributing pamphlets against
Babasaheb. Here, rather than Kabir-Phule-Ambedkar followers, Gandhi’s ‘harijans’
and weak Dalit leaders subservient to parties have been prevalent. After
independence, the reins of the Dalit movement went into the hands of the Dalit
followers of Hedgewar-Golwalkar, and fans of Gandhi-Nehru. Then, the socialist
type political Dalit movement was born, which raised slogans of social justice,
but whose leaders were from the same exploiting castes.

Consequent to the 1992 Kumher,
Bharatpur Dalit massacre, a Dalit movement outside of politics started to
emerge, which later became the victim of NGOisation. Project-based Dalit
movements have also worsened the situation. Today, the Dalit movement in Rajasthan
is under the threat of fragmentation.
From individual based, routine struggles, sprung small groups. Some have
opened their own family/caste based ‘shops’ in the name of Dalits, while as we
talk, Rajasthan ranks the highest in Dalit atrocities, untouchability and
discrimination. But it is heartening to
note, after the Dangawaas episode, the Dalit youth have spontaneously come
together in protest, and met with some success too. The dalit youth movement
have the declared our silent dalit leadership as ‘the weeds of the Poona pact’ and
also sidelined caste-based groups.

Those social organisations who
have been running shops for years have also had to face many uncomfortable
questions. From Dangaawas to Delta, the
emergence of an independent, self-reliant Ambedkarite movement can be
considered as a happy sign.

VB: Do you think Dalit groups should work separately? What is the
alternative when the Left doesn’t support? Shouldn’t the Dalit- Bahujan-Minorities
take new initiatives to fundamentally strengthen ourselves?

BM: There is no need for Dalits
to work in complete isolation. The need is to work with independence and
self-confidence. The need is to take one’s own decisions. No matter whether
there is support from the Left or other progressive streams or not, Dalit
groups should be able to stand on their own. Dalit, Adivasis, Nomadic and Minority
communities need to close rank, and we have to forget about taking along the
BCs for now. If we can do this, we can indeed emerge as a strong political
force.

VB: Do we need politics of identityor
of ideology? Although it could also be said that identity contains ideology;
this is contentious…the Sangh has been cleverest in using identity. How do
people understand the person in front is ‘mine’? Or that he could be from the
same caste, but also a dalal of the community selling its interest to the
exploiters.

BM: I feel the days of identity
in Dalit struggle are over. The Sangh’s people have played the politics of identity
to the hilt, and benefitted most from it. They know how to play the identity
card better than us. We need to focus on ideology. If we are talking of
bringing long term change, then it is important we establish the ideology of
humanity and equality that Buddha, Phule, Shahu, Kabir, Raidas and Ambedkar
have left us with.

VB: Your autobiography is a fine document which urges us to understand
the construct of ‘our own’. I feel every ideology has its own
interpretation of nationalism, which is finally used only by the dominant
people within each group through which
we want to control our own communities, for which we create certain principles,
and where the villain is always ‘the other’ – the other caste, community or
country. The villain keeps changing according to the need, but most of the
times, we are the villain ourselves?

BM: Its too early and prematurely
written, as so much yet remains to be done. But these stories also need to be
told. No publisher was willing to publish it. It is the new media which has
reached it to the people. I have raised questions about ‘us’, or ‘our people’
and about myself too, in the Hindu Taliban. You’re right in saying we change
our villains according to the need of the moment. The politics of control or domination
converts into doctrines even the wrong decisions taken by us, to cover up our own
weaknesses and ambitions. Dalit leadership and organisations need to respect
our critiques as there should be someone who can question the villain within. Since
the very idea of nation is linked to the misuse of power and authority, every group in every era will have a different
delineation of nationalism, which will be used as per each one’s convenience.

At the end, the entire debate on
nation, nationality and nationalism is bogus.

VB: How do you view the new wave of Dalit writings?

BM: It is heartening that so many
Dalit writings are coming up. They are still laden with the feeling of
victimhood and anguish. But the literature of resistance is flourishing too. It
is coming out in different languages. Yet, they are not able to make a mark on
the so-called mainstream literature. We need to make Dalit literature the
literature of humanity. It should not be made out to be literature of, for and
by Dalits. Everyone should feel the urge to read it, and to read it with fervour.
We need to make our literature of resistance more popular, cast its net wider. The
Dalit writers of the Hindi belt need to improvise. Read Anand Nilakantan’s
Puranic based fiction Asura and Ajaya, and you will feel like you’re sitting
inside a bahujan organisation’s cadre camp and listening. Nilakantan has
planted a slap on brahminism through characters such as Raavana, Duryodhana and
Karna. This is just an example. Dalit literature is, in fact, literature of
equality. Its voice need to be transformed into mainstream.

VB: Have we not become too ‘intellectual’ because landlessness, labour
problems, manual scavenging, child labour, privatisation etc. are slowly
disappearing from our list of issues? Shouldn’t all this be on the agenda of
Ambedkarites?

BM: We can be thinkers if we are
of use to society. Instead of thinkers, we’ve become neurotic. We’re perpetually worried always crying. On
the other hand, our intellectuals have become so vain, they live in their own
world. If we cannot keep the interests of what is happening in reality today in
focus, what sort of intellectuals are we? Even today, thousands of our
co-brothers and sisters are forced into begging, lakhs are cleaning shit. So
many children are still sifting through garbage, so many spend their lives
living on the streets. We have to think - what has all this privatisation and
globalisation given us? If these people’s agendas have disappeared from our
thinking and campaigns, then we are indeed living in some other world. We have
to bring them into the Ambedkarite struggle, only then we can call ourselves a
people’s movement.

VB: For those who regard Babasaheb rightly, casteism and capitalism are
both the biggest enemies. Today, Dalit youth are standing up. But a movement is
also a reaction. Gujarat, Hyderabad, etc. have proved that Dalits wont keep
quiet now. But the current of Ambedkarism has to keep flowing continually to
build an enlightened India as envisaged by Baba Saheb. What do you feel is
important for this?

BM: Reaction is important, just
as speaking out instantaneously is. I wholeheartedly support the reactions that
rose in Una and Hyderabad. It is a sign that Dalit youth have zero tolerance.
But we also need to understand the conspiracy behind this. Are they trying to get
us lost into a maze of atrocities, trapping us so we spend all our energy in
fighting these incidents, and they live on happily?

Both Casteism and capitalism are
our enemies. If we fight against one and support the other; our struggle becomes
feeble. The bazaar and brahminism are closely linked, to
support one is to lend breath to the other. We don’t need just economic growth.
We have to build an enlightened and strong India which is not merely possible
with economic empowerment. We need an independent, progressive and scientific
awakening which will free India of slaves of Manu and capital. For this, we
have to focus on participating in cultural and economic fora. For now, all our efforts
are focused on political and social equality but we seem to be unsuccessful in
the direction of fighting the Vedic sanctioned slavery and economic inequality.
We need to put our focus on these two issues importantly.

VB: How did you join the RSS? Did they search you out or you went
voluntarily?

BM: When I was in the 7th
standard, my geography teacher rounded us up and started teaching us some games,
and then some songs. Then followed some conversation. Then they gave us khakhi
shorts and black caps. One day, we were told that we had been chosen by God’s
will for the Sangh’s shakha, and that
we were lucky to be chosen. Sure, I went on my own out of enticement of play
and games. But later, recognising my capabilities, they made me the head
teacher, and later, the district office head.

It is only in retrospect I
realised that their talk of patriotism, ‘dharmo
rakshati rakshataha’, etc., is a foil. In reality, they create fear by
pointing towards Muslims, and hatred towards Christians. That is how they mobilise.

VB: I still remember two days before the Babri Masjid demolition, I was
with someone in Haryana, and the words he said to me were – “this time, the kar seva will go well.” Did you know then
that the Masjid would fall?

BM: Of course I knew. It was
pre-planned. Bringing down the Masjid - that was the real objective of the kar seva.

VB: Even today, the Sangh is going towards Dalit and Adivasi villages,
in Rajasthan, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh. What attracts people to their programmes?
Do Ambedkarism, Bahujan, Socialism, Left, or any other stream not have any programme
to do with cultural aspirations, or have we stopped going to the people? It is
true that the Sangh doesn’t lack resources, but they also have diligent,
faithful workers who come from distant places work and with strong ideological commitment….

BM: The Sangh today works on the
model of missionaries, in far-flung places. They are found amongst the Valmiki
families in cities, and they are found in distant jungles among Adivasis. They
establish their ideology through social work. They are visible with the people
in good times and bad. They understand people’s wants, and fulfill them, while
we just talk, philosophically.

We are just not there (for people)
at times of need, while the Sangh’s pracharaks
are ever-present.

The Left, Ambedkarites, socialites, bahujanites, and other
non-Sangh forces, have truly stopped going amidst people. They’re visible only in
political debates or hollow intellectual discussions.

It is not only a matter of money,
but commitment. RSS has the resources, it is true, but they also have dedicated
cadres. They are willing to go anywhere.

VB: How strong is the current of cultural change in Ambedkarism in MP,
Gujarat and Rajasthan?

BM: Gujarat has become a hotbed
of change. In Rajasthan and MP, it is simmering within. We need responsible
leadership with the right initiative to turn it into a wave.

VB: How does one face the Sangh’s propaganda? Sometimes cow, sometimes
beef, Bharat Mata, Ganga, Pakistan and Muslim preoccupy them 24 hours. They are
mostly questions on which people easily get manipulated, because they think it
is a matter of nation and culture. How do Dalits, Adivasis, and backward castes
respond to this?

BM: We can counter propaganda
only with facts and truth. The Sangh is the world’s largest factory for
packaging lies in the form of truth. Gaay
(cow), Ganga, Gayatri, Gomaata, Bharat Maata, Beef, Nationalism,Patriotism,
Vande Mataram are merely their tools. The underlying aim is to oppress the
country’s toiling masses. They have made the Sangh and the State complementary
to each other. Voting for the BJP has become synonymous with patriotism.
Protection of an animal such as cow has become a symbol of culture. We have to
reach the truth to people. We have to give a non-communal interpretation to the
constructs of ‘country’, ‘society’ and ‘culture’. We need to talk directly with
people. I am convinced only Dalits can check this harmful political virus of
Hindutva.

VB: You said that the Left never understood casteism and hence, the gap
between them and the Dalits will always remain. One has to form an
understanding to defeat brahmanism and fascism. In many places Dalits and
Muslims have substantial presence in terms of numbers, but in many, there
aren’t. We have to make alliances on common ideology. What kind of people would
you like to take along in the struggle of Dalits and Adivasis?

BM: There is a need to make many
kinds of alliances to counter brahmanism and fascism. Where we can work with
the Left, we should associate with them, unhesitatingly on certain Common
Minimum Programmes. Where we have the Bahujan alternative, no harm in going
with them too and If we feel comfortable going with any religious minority, we
could think of that too. The enemy is widespread, and huge. They need to be
fought at different forums and with many groups.

VB: You have said the OBCs are leading in atrocities against Dalits.
Isn’t that a simple statement, because if one looks at categories amongst them,
the landless (among OBCs) are natural allies of the Dalits.

BM: No, it is not a naïve
statement. It is the grassroot truth. Analyse the cases lodged under the SC/ST Atrocities
Act, and you’ll find my position correct. Even if the landless among the OBCs
are close to Dalits in an economic sense, they are afflicted with the same ‘upper-lower’
mentality as brahmanism. The day OBCs will accept Dalit leadership, stop
injustice and atrocities on Dalits, only then we can hope for change.

VB: Political struggles can
never be fought with negative agenda. Buddha showed his way to change and the
‘dhamma’ spread across the globe. He didn’t take the name of the enemy even
once. Babsaheb fought on political ground, he gave us rights, and he too
understood at the end that we cannot have political struggle without cultural
transformation. Do you feel our fight is incomplete without going towards the
Buddha’s path, and only political change is insufficient for an enlightened
India?

BM: Like every religion, there
appears to be a gap between thought and practice in Buddhism too. Some are
brahmanising the religion. Communal elements have tried to project Buddha as
Vishnu’s tenth avataar. Buddha’s statues are worshipped nearly the same way
gods and goddesses are, according to the Vedic tradition. Some neo-Buddhists
have brought their caste along into the religion, building ghettos into it.
Even marriages are sometimes conceived of between the ‘same caste’ among the
Buddhists. We need to avoid this. Another matter of concern is, those sincere
workers who would fight for change in society are now neglecting taking on such
struggles and have immersed themselves in meditation. Their natural militancy
and dreams of social change have been stripped.

We need to understand that
merely and technically converting to a religious Buddhist is not going to solve
all our problems. Anyway, no religion can free Dalits, because religion itself
is bondage. How can bondage give freedom? Dalits need to seek not freedom in
religion but freedom from all religion. For now, Buddhism
is being seen as a way out of Brahmanism – which is okay as long as it truly
accepts Buddha’s scientific consciousness and rationality. It is better for the
Dalits to embrace the path of Buddha.

VB : What would you say on the
issue of very important elections of Uttar Pradesh.

BM : UP elections can bring a new
light in these times of darkness if Manuwadi as well as market forces are
defeated. It could be termed as a referendum against the loudmouth prime
minister who has completed more than half of his tenure. All the political
parties are fighting this with all their might and they must make it a direct
fight between ideologies. I feel that politics of hatred must get defeated.

VB:You are taking UP
elections as a referendum on Narendra Modi government. Both Samajwadi Party and
Bahujan Samaj Party are contesting against each other. How would you call
people to vote as people like me feel that saying, ‘People must vote to a party
able to defeat BJP’ mean confusing them further? How could people decide who is
in a winning position hence it is important to make an ambiguous appeal to them
who to vote in the greater interest of the country.

BM: There is no difficulty
in this. First aim should be to defeat BJP, second should be to vote the party
in a position to defeat BJP. Samajwadi Party and Bahujan Samaj Party are the
main rivals though the media is trying to underplay BSP as for them it seems
that SP, BJP and Congress are the main force in Uttar Pradesh. Is it a correct
understanding of the situation there? In my opinion, despite numerous
contradictions and disagreement, I would like to appeal to the people of Uttar
Pradesh to vote for Bahin Mayawati to bring the government of Bahujan Samaj
Party. I am saying this because I feel SP is losing because of its own issues
while Congress may not gain much despite Rahul Gandhi’s hard work. We must not
allow BJP to win hence BSP is the only alternative at the moment.

· * The original conversation was in Hindi. English
translation done by Ms Sowmya Sivakumar.

Followers

About Me

Learning through working. Working at the grassroots made me realise the big difference between those who claim to represent communities as well as the communities themselves. Common man is crushed between the ambitions of various individuals to lead and dominate. The dominant and high numbered communities will always dominate our discourse and the most marginalised are losing in this entire discourse. That is the reason why Mushahar remain at the marginalised and the issue of manual scavenging still not on our top agenda and to eliminate that the community has to decide its own organisations..

I am devoted to freedom of ideas and expression. I personally feel that we in the subcontinent want to dominate and control our discourse and each one of is a ultra nationalist in terms of their caste and community. Nationalism is not just national and political but it is equally in term of religion and caste. I feel each kind of nationalism is a dominant discourse which deny the dissenter a right to speak.

At the end, we all want to listen the truth suitable to us.. we have become expertised in the art of speaking truth of convenience. As long as that remain hall mark of our society and we speak to already converts, this society will remain stagnant, it will always try to control our ideas and choices. We need to oppose any such perception, ideas that want to control our mind and victimise us.

To understand India further, I feel, it is good to do foot walk, ( Padyatras) to various parts of the country. I have so far done it thrice covering nearly 1500-2000 kilometers. It is always interesting to see how people are coping their issues and what is the reason of their exploitation.