Post subject: Classical Music as alive as ever in Europe-Truth or Fiction?

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:45 pm

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:14 pmPosts: 167Location: Canada

In Canada, we hear a rumour that classical music is still as alive in Europe as it was hundreds of years ago. I envision people driving around in their cars there with classical music playing on the radio and working at the office while singing Italian operatic arias by memory, but I could be completely wrong. Since I can't afford a plane ticket right now to come to Europe and see for myself, I'm curious on the opinions of those of you who live in Europe. If this rumour is true, instead of saving money for Henle scores, I will buy a one-way fare and join you all there next year!
-Nicole

Still alive as hundreds of years ago? Nah. Maybe except Germany. Most people here listen to pop music, and that stuff . In Germany there are still plenty of people who love classical music, but in other countries they are far in the minority, and those who like classical music usually also don't know very much about it. There are many people who like classical music, but very few who know that Bach was born in 1685 or that Chopin composed 21 Nocturnes.
Especially here tha Netherlands classical music is dying... . I wonder what will happen when the old people here die... Compared with the NL I'd say that classical music is even more "alive" in the US.

I think the country, where the classical music still lives is Italy. Most people learn arias from operas by ear because they are considered as folk songs there and are sung all over the place. I also heard Italian people have their own music culture and are not so depended on popmusic as other countries. For example Italy has signed out from Eurovision song constest because they have so strong music culture of their own.

In Sweden, unfortunately, very few people listens or even care about classical music. The avarage knowledge of the great classical composers is ridiculous low and it was not long ago a serious suggestion to close down the classical radio channel P2 in Sweden which is run by extremely knowledgeble people. It is not within our tradition to go to classical concerts operas and even though we have a large opera house in Gothenburg where I live close, seldom real interesting operas are given there but rather other irritating or meaningless shows. The reason is that the big operas, piano concertos etc. do not attract people. Pretty tragic acutally. I believe that one of the main reasons is that Sweden has never had an international known great composer.

I am reading the replies with a bit of sadness, and have therefore not called the airport. Sometimes it is more romantic to believe the rumour about grass being greener elsewhere, but also always good to find out the real truth. So I am still very glad I asked, and glad for the responses that have already come in.
-Nicole in Canada

I believe the symptoms of classical music's decline are the same here in Europe as in the USA and Canada. People get pop and rap rammed into their ears wherever they go, whether they want it or not. There is no choice, and no escape - pop is EVERYWHERE. Have people asked for that or has it just grown like that and now most people don't know any different anymore? It seems like a classic chicken-egg problem. Also, subsidizing classical music has become rather unfashionable. Here in Holland, there even was talk about abandoning the only official classical FM station (all others have gone digital already). A storm of public protest (hurraahh !!!) prevented that. It is sad to see though that some great orchestras have been killed or merged into other ones, with the sole purpose of cutting costs.

For sure, if classical music got its fair chance on TV, radio, and in education, things would be different. But hear you go, nobody's interested in classical, so why give it to them. My kids at school have music projects, like writing a rap song and doing a project on pop artist so-and-so. They have no clue what a symphony is, or what Bach and Beethoven did. I believe this is where it starts, or ought to start. Very strange as they DO learn some about art, literature ancient mythology, etc. But music seems to be the odd one out.

As a result, classical music is being pushed back to the margins and being the folly of the happy few. As youth sees it, only old and boring people bother with it.

Yet it would be too easy to conclude that classical music is dying. If you see the enormous numbers of concertos and music festivals, the continuus influx of extremely talented and skilled (young) musicians, and the staggering amount of material available, both on CD, internet, and printed copy - much of which was never even heard of 10 years before - one can only conclude that us happy few have got it good, and that ain't bad.

One other thing I observe - for every classical artist 'going pop' there seems to be a pop artist 'going classical'. On one hand this cross-over mixing of styles mostly dilutes classical music (people who suggest the two are ever remotely equal should get an education), on the other hand it gets classical music out of its elitist image. Despite pop is ervywhere, I think more people are recently getting exposed to classical music, even if it is only the music-for-millions kind of it.

Let's also not forget film music which if often of a high caliber, and not so far away from classical music. Think of John Williams, Hans Zimmer, and the like. It would not be a big step to appreciate music like The Planets and the Pines of Rome. Strangely, my kids love this kind of stuff, and would even listen to classical bits provided they had been in a movie or on tv.

So, conflicting signs as I see it. The overall picture is worrying, but on closer look there are good things as well. At least here in Holland (which has no famous local composer either) there still is a strong musical scene - one of the world's top orchestras, a world-leading tradition in ancient music, and more.

I had not suspected things to be particularly alarming in Canada though. With so much fabulous musicians like Hewitt, Lortie, Hamelin, Tafelmusik, and the Montreal Symphony, there surely seem to be going on something there ?

And look further, at the far east, where young poeple seem to be crazy about classical music. Seems like they are taking it far more serious than we westerners do. If the west would take an example to that, things may turn for the better.

Here is just a little tidbit: Since I play my piano a lot, my kids get a good dose of classical music. I also listen to it in my car. They're not crazy about that all the time and especially if their friends are nearby. Then they tell me to turn it down, or they just press a button to a hard rock music station. Anyway, I'm in the U.S. and many times on television commercials they'll hear music they recognize. It's nice when they say, "hey Mom, you play that."

It's not over yet! I am in the front line of this battle, and I usually win the battles that I choose to fight.

I teach Music Appreciation and Jazz History at Coconino Community College in Flagstaff Arizona, one of the last truly "out of the way" places to be found. Ironically this out of the way place still has an all classical radio station and a financialy solvent symphony orchestra. Now, how to keep it that way? WE MUST CREATE A NEW AUDIENCE FROM THE YOUNGER GENERATION.

There is no other way.

First we must ask ourselves where has the audience gone, and why? What did we do to scare everyone away? In the US, the classical music scence was subverted in the late 60's and 70's by the rock scene. Why? Because young people need a music that is their own, to diffrentiate themselves from the older generation (those "squares":lol: ). It seems to me that the "Rock Revolution" did us a great deal of harm, more than the Jazz Age of the 20's thru the 50's. I don't understand why this is so, it must be the way that classical musicians (yeah us) reacted to the Rock Revolution that made the young people of that time react violently against classical music. A colleague of mine once told me the following, in all sincerity, and I was horrified.

"I really admire Leinsdorf (the German conducter emigrated to the USA) for showing those bourgeoise symphony audiences what real music was. He programmed Webern's Symphonie, and then repeated it right after it had been performed so those middle class ignoramuses would get the point and understand it."

Many people had left the hall after the first hearing, and more left after the second. Nothing against Webern and his Symphonie ( I like it) but this isn't a good way to go about "educating" the public to new music, on the part of Leinsdorf or my colleague. This event was a microcosm of the whole condescending "we know better than you" attitude that drove the audience away. People don't like to be looked down on, not just in music and art but in everyday life. This is where we went wrong. This post WWII attitude of snobbery and superiority in the face first of modern Jazz ( a creative process that was conceivably a threat to "classical" music) then Rock on the part of classical musicians drove the audience away from classical and into the arms of the new "peoples music", which quickly developed a reverse snobbery of it's own, but a welcoming inclusive one. Classical music became an ivory tower world, excluding anything popular or current, even though a lot of what was happening in Rock (savage rthymic energy, loud dissonance) had corrollaries in the music of Bartok, Prokofiev, Penderecki and Ginstera, to name only four "hip" classical composers. This elitist attitude filtered into the traditional repertoire of Mozart and Beethoven et al, the music that everyone can relate to, expressed in the same harmonic (I-IV-V-I) and rythmic ( 4/4 ) language as Rock. The two idioms (Rock and Classical) should have connected, but they seperated. I'm sure most of you can see why, but now we have to get the kids (for whom the term "Rock" denotes their parents' music) interested again. Ironically this generation who are the children of social rebels are more open minded than their parents were about different kinds of art and music. I'm finding it's as simple as playing it for them and explaining it to them in a non-condescending manner.

How to create the new audience? It's simple. PLAY THE MUSIC. LEAVE THE ELITIST ATTITUDE BEHIND. I find that the generation born since 1980 or thereabouts feels disenfranchised, they feel that they don't have anything of their own, despite Rap, Techno and Hip Hop. They won't admit this but know it's true, they respect Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, The Beatles and Queen more than the music of their own generation. So the context for appreciating classical music exists, but most classical musicians/educators can't see it . If you can explain to them how the pop music of today is influenced by Little Richard/Hendrix etc. it's just a small step from that to explaining the links between Mozart and Beethoven, and making them understand why they are relevant in the greater scheme of things, the way they understand that Beyonce as she is owes a lot to Diana Ross, to give a current example. If we leave the ivory tower we gain so much. We know the difference between claasical and pop, but to help the younger people (or our peers, for those of you who are younger) know the difference we have to be accessisble and open, not aloof and shut off. Hope this makes sense.

Tired now, must sleep. Hopefully someone will pick this up and go with it. This may be the most important topic on this site.

The truth is, as you both say, the life of classical music begins with teaching school children. I, myself, am as ignorant of the inner workings of classical music as anyone can be, but despite my ignorance, I thrill to the majestic tones (up until Dvorjak...). I wish I had been taught early on and in school, my life would have been richer. Now, I must pick up what I can as time allows....

How to create the new audience? It's simple. PLAY THE MUSIC. LEAVE THE ELITIST ATTITUDE BEHIND.

Yes this is extremely important and perhaps the largest problem. People around me see me much as a classical nerd. Perhaps I am but the point is that it does not take enormous musical interest to listen to and understand classical music. It can be listened to as anything else. I feed people around me and talk much about this subject if the theme comes up. I really wish we could take it down to the people again.

arensky wrote:

I find that the generation born since 1980 or thereabouts feels disenfranchised, they feel that they don't have anything of their own, despite Rap, Techno and Hip Hop. They won't admit this but know it's true, they respect Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, The Beatles and Queen more than the music of their own generation. So the context for appreciating classical music exists, but most classical musicians/educators can't see it .

Very true as well and I see some things going on in the school my kids go to. They start learning instruments by playing classical music.

arensky wrote:

Tired now, must sleep. Hopefully someone will pick this up and go with it. This may be the most important topic on this site.

Also, this site can be used as a platform or at least a source of information with all the biographies and music. For this reason, I have always want to keep the music free for ANYONE to explore.

subsidizing classical music has become rather unfashionable. Here in Holland, there even was talk about abandoning the only official classical FM station (all others have gone digital already). A storm of public protest (hurraahh !!!) prevented that. It is sad to see though that some great orchestras have been killed or merged into other ones, with the sole purpose of cutting costs.

For sure, if classical music got its fair chance on TV, radio, and in education, things would be different. But hear you go, nobody's interested in classical, so why give it to them. My kids at school have music projects, like writing a rap song and doing a project on pop artist so-and-so. They have no clue what a symphony is, or what Bach and Beethoven did. I believe this is where it starts, or ought to start. Very strange as they DO learn some about art, literature ancient mythology, etc. But music seems to be the odd one out.

This gives me a way into what I think is the root of the problem. The generation Americans call the "baby-boomers" (those born between 1946-1964) seems to have it in for classical music. Visual art, literature and mythology can be dressed up and reinterpreted in ways that make them seem part of the 60's movement but the sound of "classical" music cannot be changed, therefore to the ex-hippies who are now in charge of education and arts programs it must be brushed aside because it cannot be hippiefied, and is therefore not relevant. These revisionists don't realize what they are doing, they are merely products of their time, and classical music was a symbol of the establishment and rock the anthem of the "new freedom" Therefore today's kids cannot be exposed to classical because their parents shut it off when they were young, making them the missing link.

Several things counteract this unfortunate scenario. Kids are actually suspect of the music industry because it's run by older people, so they think they are being pandered too (they are correct). This was part of the appeal of Rap and Hip Hop, it was originally a reaction against the music industry and the tame stylized pop of the 80's. Now that rap and hip hop are part of the corporate music machine their impact and alluring "danger factor" have been negated. Today's youth is disenfranchised and not happy about it, and are actually considering different options for their lives, in terms of relationships, belief choices (religious political moral etc.) and music. As they look for alternatives to what is offered them in the effort to define themselves I find that they are looking at everything. Classical music is brilliantly positioned to be a major player in the cultural counter -revolution. [/i]

As youth sees it, only old and boring people bother with it.

I'm not so sure about that. Here kids are curious about it, and the kids who play a classical instrument (or any instrument ) are respected by their peers, regardless of their musical taste. This is a far cry from when I was in high school, in a more elite and pretentious community that than where I live now.

Yet it would be too easy to conclude that classical music is dying.

Not dying; evolving. If it does not evolve it will die, like the dinosaurs.

One other thing I observe - for every classical artist 'going pop' there seems to be a pop artist 'going classical'. On one hand this cross-over mixing of styles mostly dilutes classical music (people who suggest the two are ever remotely equal should get an education), on the other hand it gets classical music out of its elitist image. Despite pop is ervywhere, I think more people are recently getting exposed to classical music, even if it is only the music-for-millions kind of it.

This is a double edged sword, but one we must use. Hopefully I have not suggested they are equal, if I did this was not my intent. But they are both valid, and it's interesting to compare certain lieder with the more complex rock songs of the last 35 years.

Let's also not forget film music which if often of a high caliber, and not so far away from classical music. Think of John Williams, Hans Zimmer, and the like. It would not be a big step to appreciate music like The Planets and the Pines of Rome. Strangely, my kids love this kind of stuff, and would even listen to classical bits provided they had been in a movie or on tv.

My secret weapon! They hate 20th Century music until you play them (and show them) scenes from "Psycho", "Star Wars" (lame but hey) and "Alien 3".

So, conflicting signs as I see it. The overall picture is worrying, but on closer look there are good things as well. At least here in Holland (which has no famous local composer either) there still is a strong musical scene - one of the world's top orchestras, a world-leading tradition in ancient music, and more.

Yes but we will win, we must. That "ancient music" is popular here for meditation and studying ( two of it's original applications). Stealing the "thunder of the "New Age" :

Therefore today's kids cannot be exposed to classical because their parents shut it off when they were young, making them the missing link.

That was the case for me. I was a kid in the 70:th (born -71) and there was nothing but pop/rock at home and I also know my father actively rejected classical music as a revolution against the older generation. More an act of political reason then anything else. We talk about this today and he cannot still understand that it is the music itself that is so important. Not the people or organisations executing it but for him, dress up and go to an opera was totally against everything he politically stood and still stand for. A working class hero, that what he is. But why should wonderful music suffer for political reasons? I think we must accept that classical concerts can be given at different stages than todays opera houses.

Another problem is that today's kids want to sing/scream along, party, stage dive when going to a concert. That cannot happend to classical music and that is one important issue why it feels so boring to them.

I was born in a family who nearly never listened to any music. I more or less discovered classical music myself. I have never really listened to pop music, simply because before I got attention for classical music I didn't listen to any music. My first classical music CD is I believe Beethoven's 5th and 6th symphony conducted by Von Karajan. I loved it and soon I started to collect more CDs. But the real "revolution" happened about a year ago. My CD collection grew so fast (it probably quadrupled at least) that I didn't have enough space, so I moved them all from little boxes to big boxes to small bookshelfs to big bookshelfs, etc.
Yet I don't understand why someone like me has gone into the classical music, while there are enough other kids in my class whose parents love classical music but they themselfs hate it.

Classical music shouldn't be dying. If we don't want that it dies, we should do something against it. Here in Holland there is this guy called Paul Witteman who IMO does a great job telling people that classical music isn't only for the elite class people, but everyone can listen to it. He wrote some books. We don't have to write whole books, but I could try to convince the people in my class that they should listen to Mozart more often and stuff like that or just things like that. I don't think it will work, but I could try...

I was born in a family who nearly never listened to any music. I more or less discovered classical music myself. I have never really listened to pop music, simply because before I got attention for classical music I didn't listen to any music. My first classical music CD is I believe Beethoven's 5th and 6th symphony conducted by Von Karajan. I loved it and soon I started to collect more CDs. But the real "revolution" happened about a year ago. My CD collection grew so fast (it probably quadrupled at least) that I didn't have enough space, so I moved them all from little boxes to big boxes to small bookshelfs to big bookshelfs, etc. Yet I don't understand why someone like me has gone into the classical music, while there are enough other kids in my class whose parents love classical music but they themselfs hate it.

Classical music shouldn't be dying. If we don't want that it dies, we should do something against it. Here in Holland there is this guy called Paul Witteman who IMO does a great job telling people that classical music isn't only for the elite class people, but everyone can listen to it. He wrote some books. We don't have to write whole books, but I could try to convince the people in my class that they should listen to Mozart more often and stuff like that or just things like that. I don't think it will work, but I could try...

This is similar to my story; my father was a Jazz musician when he was younger and played piano everyday of his life so I always heard it and loved it but no one suggested I take lessons, but when I wanted to play he taught me, then I had teachers. There was no classical music in the house, just my father's 40's jazz and the 60's Rock my brother and sister listened to. We had four or five dusty classical records, I got them out (Rach 2, Mozart Overtures, Kapell's Khachaturian Concerto) and quickly became addicted. I was not aware of any idea of classical being "uncool" and didn't encounter that until high school, but I've always been the sort of person who doesn't give much of a **** what other people think, I do what I want.

Classical music isn't dying, you are proof! How exactly did you discover classical on your own? I'm curious.

BTW, don't try to convince or convert your peers to classical; just play it for them when you have the chance, ALONG WITH whatever pop tunes are current hits that work on the piano. This is what I did in high school, I would play my classical pieces, then play Chicago, Barry Manilow or Kiss (there is a piano ballad, "Beth" that was the rage among teenagers in 1979 ) or Neil Sedaka. If you try to change or convert them they will resist, it's the way of all teenagers everywhere. Just play classical for them, along with whatever is the current rage. Some will become interested, some will not. You can't reach everyone, but you can reach quite a few if you have the right attitude.

Learn a Boogie piece, it's good for your LH and it's basically rock, your peers will dig it. A kid named "Kaasa" on Pianostreet posted a video of himself playing "Dive Bomber" by Pete Johnson or one of those 40's Boogie cats. Think about it. You are well placed to be an effective soldier in this war!

This is what I did in high school, I would play my classical pieces, then play Chicago, Barry Manilow or Kiss (there is a piano ballad, "Beth" that was the rage among teenagers in 1979 ) or Neil Sedaka.

Wow, I just took a trip back in time (not in my time machine , just in my head). We used to rollerskate to songs by these groups in an indoor roller rink with a wooden floor. I loved when they lowered the lights and put on the glitter ball and play Neil Sedaka songs. That was for "couples" skate.

And don't forget about playing songs on the piano by Styx.

Anyway, back to the classical music topic: Maybe movies could put in more classical music mixed in with the today's composers pieces. John Williams theme for Star Wars is perfect but somewhere in the middle of the movie they could stick in part of a Beethoven symphony. I do hear some familiar music in movies but a little more couldn't hurt.

Anyway, back to the classical music topic: Maybe movies could put in more classical music mixed in with the today's composers pieces. John Williams theme for Star Wars is perfect but somewhere in the middle of the movie they could stick in part of a Beethoven symphony. I do hear some familiar music in movies but a little more couldn't hurt.

Around mid of last century, a lot of famous classical composers wrote film music. Think of Shostakovich, Arnold, Vaughan Williams, Korngold. That does not seem bo be so anymore, although the idiom of the best film composers is not so far from classical.
One thing that annoys me is that here on TV you hear a lot of muzak that sounds decidely classical but it isn't. For some reason the programmer's seem afraid to put on the 'real' thing.

I was born in a family who nearly never listened to any music. I more or less discovered classical music myself. I have never really listened to pop music, simply because before I got attention for classical music I didn't listen to any music. My first classical music CD is I believe Beethoven's 5th and 6th symphony conducted by Von Karajan. I loved it and soon I started to collect more CDs. But the real "revolution" happened about a year ago. My CD collection grew so fast (it probably quadrupled at least) that I didn't have enough space, so I moved them all from little boxes to big boxes to small bookshelfs to big bookshelfs, etc. Yet I don't understand why someone like me has gone into the classical music, while there are enough other kids in my class whose parents love classical music but they themselfs hate it.

Classical music shouldn't be dying. If we don't want that it dies, we should do something against it. Here in Holland there is this guy called Paul Witteman who IMO does a great job telling people that classical music isn't only for the elite class people, but everyone can listen to it. He wrote some books. We don't have to write whole books, but I could try to convince the people in my class that they should listen to Mozart more often and stuff like that or just things like that. I don't think it will work, but I could try...

This is similar to my story; my father was a Jazz musician when he was younger and played piano everyday of his life so I always heard it and loved it but no one suggested I take lessons, but when I wanted to play he taught me, then I had teachers. There was no classical music in the house, just my father's 40's jazz and the 60's Rock my brother and sister listened to. We had four or five dusty classical records, I got them out (Rach 2, Mozart Overtures, Kapell's Khachaturian Concerto) and quickly became addicted. I was not aware of any idea of classical being "uncool" and didn't encounter that until high school, but I've always been the sort of person who doesn't give much of a **** what other people think, I do what I want.

Classical music isn't dying, you are proof! How exactly did you discover classical on your own? I'm curious.

Actually, I don't remember. I think it was because I started playing piano, so I got interested in music.

Quote:

BTW, don't try to convince or convert your peers to classical; just play it for them when you have the chance, ALONG WITH whatever pop tunes are current hits that work on the piano. This is what I did in high school, I would play my classical pieces, then play Chicago, Barry Manilow or Kiss (there is a piano ballad, "Beth" that was the rage among teenagers in 1979 ) or Neil Sedaka. If you try to change or convert them they will resist, it's the way of all teenagers everywhere. Just play classical for them, along with whatever is the current rage. Some will become interested, some will not. You can't reach everyone, but you can reach quite a few if you have the right attitude.

Learn a Boogie piece, it's good for your LH and it's basically rock, your peers will dig it. A kid named "Kaasa" on Pianostreet posted a video of himself playing "Dive Bomber" by Pete Johnson or one of those 40's Boogie cats. Think about it. You are well placed to be an effective soldier in this war!

Heh I will. It's just hard to find good pop music pieces. Most transcriptions are hell boring to play. Continuous ostinatos, same figures, chords, a simple melody in the right hand. I need to find some good pieces...
I can play Comptine d'un autre ete (Yann Tiersen) and that's it (and a couple of other pieces, which are not really interesting unless you have a whole band or something). I like film music and I will probably learn some more pieces from Amelie. Or maybe game music like Super Mario pieces. That would be fun...
Boogie Woogie? I could try. I just need sheet music... I know nothing about Boogie Woogie, even less than about pop music. Or maybe I could learn some Scott Japlin or just learn improvising... I'm very bad at improvising. Always I-IV-V-I or I-VII-VI-I.
I don't think that there are piano pieces which are a rage here these days. The kids prefer either music they can sing (or rap, or beatbox) along with or hardcore heavy metal stuff.

well, here's a dose of good ol australia id have to say most definitely in australia um classical music popularity is low as. well, firstly its not like we have a big classical music history as we're a pretty newish country...

but its always encouraging to find young people who really do appreciate classical...its great!! most of my friends. wait make that all, dont listen or appreciate classical..the only opportunity they hear it is when i play on our crappy school upright during asssembly. hmmm. how embarrassing. dw, thats only on special occasions. however, i do know others who are really into classical...for eg., i know this guy, who's 18 and loves classical...everytime he's on msn (or IM to some of u), he's always listening to classical! he's also not the defined 'nerd' in any way.

also, i met this guy who's 16 and we chatted about classical music..haha dang it, he lives in perth (in australia)

I thinks its the cultural bought up with. Now days,the education system are emphasis on "creativity" over the classical period. Therefore why the modern music is introduced. Another word, we tried to step out of square. Thinking outside the square. Its like writing or composing a poets/music that is none traditional(claassical). It can be good in a way but vice versa. You relealise that, drug are related to creativity so as modern pop music....BUT I dnt see that classical music is related to drugs. So stick to classical music at the same time no forget about the modern music.

Germany,Austria, Poland and Italy, Russia/China they will never died out since they retained there traditional culture, where they produced athe great classical composers.(have I missed any?)

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