This part fascinates me too ... because most Ni doms will say that this product isn't a necessarily a final product and I respect that, but I feel you are correct as well, in that there does not appear (or dare I say feel like) there is an option to "appeal". Good stuff to think on.

You probably know all this, but here are the basics:

Ni is the dominant function of both INFJs and INTJs, and it’s a perceiving function. As such, it just sits there and churns out alternatives and possibilities and back-up plans. No decisions are made.

But at some point that churning mess has to come out into the real world. So the churning mess comes out into the world through the auxiliary judging function (Fe for INFJs and Te for INTJs). The auxiliary judging function makes a call on what the final product should look like based on it’s own Te or Fe rules. So for INFJs, the results of Ni churning are whittled down and packaged up in an Fe model; for INTJs, the results of Ni churning are whittled down and packaged up in an Te model.

At this point, Ni may continue to churn on the problem further, and the Ni-dom may insist that they haven’t provided a final product yet. But if a product made it into the outside world at all, then it had to go through a Judging function, which means it was packaged at some point into a model for real-world application.

But since the Judging function (Te or Fe) is only the Auxiliary function in Ni-Doms, that means that the Te or Fe model-building function is pretty weak. To put it another way, a Judging “patina” of model-building was applied.

Similarly, the Fi models of INFPs get built from the churning of our relatively weak Ne (perceiving) Auxiliary function. Our Auxiliary Ne churns a bit (much more slowly then Ni in an Ni-dom), runs a few possibilities past us, and at some point our strong Fi-dom grabs one of those possibilities and hammers it into a strong Fi model.

tell a proclaimed-NJ that they are an SJ, and they will ever so often try to bite your head off...

...yes, sometimes even when they've asked...

really though, show people two profile:

one tells them that they are special - the rarest of them all, that they are complex, that their thoughts and beliefs are actually deep insights from beyond the abyss, that want they want from others is just the highest of ideals, and that they actually hold themselves to those highest of ideals, their notions of how things should be done is merely striving for the best systems.

the other, well... they have a good memory. their mighty ideals are not even theirs and are given by society, and they are pretty much portraits of wives from an american 50s movie (even if they are guys).

If you want to get more particular, N is about juxtaposition (switching around elements and looking for patterns or associations to emerge); S is about breaking things down into various constituent parts and then running them through the database to see if any useful associations or applicable previous experiences pop up.

well, both types are introverted, so we're both working from memory a lot.

when we try to get back into the moment, j types exert a great deal of effort in making good predictions about what will happen. p types invest harder in getting a feel for what has just happened. obviously we both have to do both processes, but we privilege one aspect over the other. we see one process way better than the other, reshaping the other through our own privileged orientation/habits.

i think standuble mentioned that he doesn't feel like he knows what is objectively best, so he presumably operates with another set of subjective ethics about how to properly act given that, say, you don't think it's right for anyone to just assume they objectively know best. you don't get to direct. you must be willing to respond to whatever arises.

j types, by contrast, are trying to make predictions in order to prioritize values, offering a much more active kind of troubleshooting. they look to consider, and expect others to also assume a high degree of consideration of what an action might mean after it has been transmitted through layers of interpretative filters.

p types can get stuck in naive realism, j types can get stuck in the vicious circularities of tautological thinking. and our shadow sides are flip-flopped. again, either type can fixate quite easily, and we're both already outdated all the damn time because we're so memory-driven.

the worst thing is that sometimes we construct such elaborate ways to emulate the other experience, rather than just feeling it out in its own terms. that takes so much damn practice to first notice our own habits, and then create space for something else to happen. staying with experience, with consequences, is not easy for me. it's a kind of submission to my own experience and to the fact that my experience is not entirely under my control. given that i have also not mastered focusing my experience and guiding my own attention in the most productive ways i can, this seems like letting go of almost all control. including the desire for emotional harmony, positivity, and good feeling, the embodied ends of value as we experience it, and the desire to change whatever is happening to reach a higher level of this essentialized goal. and letting go control is certainly letting go of all precedent, given that the precedents i have practiced, the highest learning i have constructed, exists primarily in an intentional system, a prediction system, a verification attempt of what is expected when i guess the meaning that will best affect the situation. we identify with what circulates between the characters rather than the characters themselves. when we identify with a person, we identify with what circulates within them rather than the substance of them as a separate thing, and with what it is like to be a separate thing. our experience is less central, our sensory separateness is less central.

both types benefit from slowing down their emotional interpretations and working on neutrally describing the sensations of emotion first, so they take ownership of their own experience and allow that to work its way into their awareness of the moment, what is happening both internally and externally.

This all gets back to what I said about perceiving functions and judging functions at the start:

Ni (the dom function of INFJ) is a perceiving function. It’s a churning, strategizing process. It’s going to focus mainly on process: *How* does one empathize? More generally: *How* does one make this thing work?

Fi (the dom function of INFP) is a judging function. It’s a model-making process. It’s going to package the idea of empathy into a nice little emotional model suitable for application in the real world. These emotional models operate much like the logical models of Ti (which is also a judging function).

Thanks for the concise explanation. I hadn't associated judging with model-making before, although of course it makes perfect sense.

As an Fi model-maker myself, I would like to see a little more of an actual *model* on the ways empathy operates in the real world: Exactly what benefits will accrue to those who follow his advice or to the world in general? Why does this particular audience needs to be lectured on empathy? Empathy is good, of course, but so are 200 other noble causes in the world. I’m into self-improvement and working on bettering myself in lots of different ways. So why empathy before other causes? What exact problems does it solve, what does it cost, what are the trade-offs, etc. And so on, you know, the questions a newspaper reporter is supposed to ask: Who, what, why, when, where... Not just the perceiver’s “How.”

Probably because empathy is what sets everything else into motion. First you have to care about the 200+ noble causes. That's essentially the point of most graduation speeches, right?

tell a proclaimed-NJ that they are an SJ, and they will ever so often try to bite your head off...

...yes, sometimes even when they've asked...

really though, show people two profile:

one tells them that they are special - the rarest of them all, that they are complex, that their thoughts and beliefs are actually deep insights from beyond the abyss, that want they want from others is just the highest of ideals, and that they actually hold themselves to those highest of ideals, their notions of how things should be done is merely striving for the best systems.

the other, well... they have a good memory. their mighty ideals are not even theirs and are given by society, and they are pretty much portraits of wives from an american 50s movie (even if they are guys).

which one do you think most people are going to pick?

I'm so rare, I am rarer than you. I'm a male INFJ! Don't hate because you aren't rare. Hater.

On a serious note, I don't care too much about my type. My first type I've gotten is INFP. Some may even think I'm ISFJ. If I got the most common type, I don't mind as long as it "sounds" like me.

I'm serious. If you're not a crude person I'd be willing to throw you into INFP or ISFJ category.

INFP's are all listening to "arrival of the birds" and watching disney movies while INFJ's are listening to ganga-clouds and practicing their hindu lapdances.

You shouldn't be "acting" if you're actually an Ni Fe Ti Se.

I get the over all picture that INFJ's are just in their own world...just like INFP's are ...but different worlds

I don't view INFJ's as, for lack of a better word, "hippies" or completely as mystical as your describing. Mostly because their judgerness shines too bright. I see a lot of INFJ's as perfectionsits, not doing hindu lapdances unless that's something they're VERY interested in. I see the mysticalness come out of them in designing. Such as their houses. I feel like that's where the unicorns and ganga-clouds come out to play. But not in thier personality....I think they act "put together" and can be warm (Fe) but also analysing with their Ti. And I don't really find them to be sluts lol. I also think they like being pursued...and they may not mind doing the pursuing as well. I think most INFJ's I know are 4's...4's like being pursued...you know...that whole self absorbtion kicks in. ( Don't get me wrong I love 4's, and don't actually mind the self absorbedness)

Also INFJ's once ur "in" and u really get to know them. They are readable because of Fe.

INFP's on the other hand...I know INFP's....but I don't actaully KNOW them...intimacy is hard with an Fi dom....I call it looking through the fog...Their first function lets u see nothing, and forget it if they're a 9. But they do watch disney movies lol And INFP's are probably traveling and doin a buncha shit including sniffing flowers cause their Ne takes them their. But not for long.

"Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

Freedom isn't free.

"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell

I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.

Ni is the dominant function of both INFJs and INTJs, and it’s a perceiving function. As such, it just sits there and churns out alternatives and possibilities and back-up plans. No decisions are made.

But at some point that churning mess has to come out into the real world. So the churning mess comes out into the world through the auxiliary judging function (Fe for INFJs and Te for INTJs). The auxiliary judging function makes a call on what the final product should look like based on it’s own Te or Fe rules. So for INFJs, the results of Ni churning are whittled down and packaged up in an Fe model; for INTJs, the results of Ni churning are whittled down and packaged up in an Te model.

At this point, Ni may continue to churn on the problem further, and the Ni-dom may insist that they haven’t provided a final product yet. But if a product made it into the outside world at all, then it had to go through a Judging function, which means it was packaged at some point into a model for real-world application.

But since the Judging function (Te or Fe) is only the Auxiliary function in Ni-Doms, that means that the Te or Fe model-building function is pretty weak. To put it another way, a Judging “patina” of model-building was applied.

Similarly, the Fi models of INFPs get built from the churning of our relatively weak Ne (perceiving) Auxiliary function. Our Auxiliary Ne churns a bit (much more slowly then Ni in an Ni-dom), runs a few possibilities past us, and at some point our strong Fi-dom grabs one of those possibilities and hammers it into a strong Fi model.

This is a clear description. All of your posts are fantastic in this thread, so it was hard to pick one, but just because I made a number of comments and questions about Ni, I'll have to say thanks for this clarification.

Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors. Fear of reality creates myopic moralitySo I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
(from Blue Velvet)

I'm so rare, I am rarer than you. I'm a male INFJ! Don't hate because you aren't rare. Hater.

On a serious note, I don't care too much about my type. My first type I've gotten is INFP. Some may even think I'm ISFJ. If I got the most common type, I don't mind as long as it "sounds" like me.

*claps*
Wave your hands in the air like you don’t care
Glide by the people as they start to look and stare
Do your dance, do your dance, do your dance quick mama
Come on, baby, tell me what’s the word

really though, my point wasn't just the rarity, its that one type description clearly sounds a lot better than the other and does a better job at giving people what they would like to hear about themselves, so it's entirely natural that if two people who fit the IxFJs common attributes have reached the point of picking between those two. one profile is being sold on a much more luxurious plate.

then they come together with the rest of the stated NJs and when Ni comes up they will talk about the nature of their own perception, and the result is that you have a very muddled convention on what Ni means. i am not saying that @fia is wrong or that Ni doesn't come in different versions or that people embrace different effect it has in different ways, i am simply stating that there's a much simpler sociological thing going on that is expanding on the pool of what would count as Ni to actually mean general Pi.

this IMO is problematic when it comes to either INFJs or ISFJs gaining an understanding of their own way of thinking:
now, people can be "more abstract" or "less concrete" depending on their sensory/intuitive balance, which for IxFJs would mean the extent to which Si rejects/embraces Ne or the extent to which Ni rejects/embraces Se.
but Si & Ni work in very different ways on a fundamental level, they are mechanically different:
- Si draws precedent from one's past collection of details in contrast to the incoming details.
- Ni derives framing from within the information's context to fit the incoming patterns.
the result is an outright different perception of time. what they share is actually very limited - the mental need for coherence - whether its a question of what your experience tells you or a question of deriving meaning, they both deliver the most cohesive information structure, answering the J's need for cohesive information.