Looking Forward Season 4, Part 9: The Lannisters and the Future of Joffrey

The trailers are here. The photos are popping. The S3 DVD is about to be released and we are all discussing nudity. It must be close.

The new season is upon us, which means that your show-watcher only contributor and his award winning, off season Looking Forward series is almost concluded.

It’s time we travel to King’s Landing to take a look at what the Lannisters might be up to for S4. Humor a man on his journey into the unknown, for as far as the Lannisters are concerned, I truly know nothing.

First off, apologies are in order for being a little less active on the site. The knife wound I suffered put a man down longer than anticipated. Following a procedure such as the one I encountered, you truly realize how aging changes the body and its ability to heal. I planned on returning to the office after five days. The Recovery Gods laughed at me.

However, I do owe many of you a debt of gratitude. Many of you suggested that I take in the other great show of our current time, Breaking Bad, and I did so. It was as excellent as you had advertised and helped tremendously in passing the hours of couch time endured. To those of you who mentioned and recommended it, I am indebted to you. And Oz always pays his debts (although it may have to be in trade since the extended time off left a man a little light in the wallet area).

Just a reminder: As the season draws closer and our site encounters new readership, please be reminded that these posts are written by someone who has never read a page of any of the books. I have taken an oath and it must be upheld. The choice to not read them and to be shocked and awed by the show is mine, and many of the Unsullied army have made that same decision.

I encourage comments and interaction from the Sullied. After all, you guys are the primary reason I am here. But please be respectful by not posting Spoilers in the comments. I cannot speak for the other Unsullied, but I will tell you that I plan on reading all of the books upon conclusion of the show. Until then, all we can do is look forward to the new Season and attempt to make educated (or mostly uneducated) predictions on where it all leads.

And so my watch begins. Again.

Family

The Lannisters have successfully ascended to being the apparent most powerful family in Westeros. At this point in the show, I don’t know who would top them. Their stronghold seems to be on solid ground thanks to Tywin and Tyrion (although the latter has received very little credit). But the viewer would be naïve to believe that this power is not destined to shift at some point. The question is, will it happen this season?

Here are a few issues I would like to see resolved in the coming Season, preferably in the first episode, if you don’t mind. It’s been a long off-season.

Tywin

The current Hand/Grandfather/Tormenter of the King and arguably the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms.

Tywin seems to have almost everything in control, including the King himself. But how long will that last?

It seems like I waited the entirety of S3 for a clash to come between Joffrey and Paw Paw. Then finally, in Episode 10 Paw put Joff to bed without his supper and it was everything I had hoped it would be.

To begin S4 with yet another clash between the two would be a beautiful opening. But I can’t see Joff putting up with much more of Paw telling him what to do or how to run his Kingdom. The real question is, who gets fed up with whom first. Could it be the end of the King? More on Joff shortly.

Cersei

The Queen regent, mother of King Crossbow, and the brother lover like no other.

The role of Cersei intrigues me just because I can’t imagine where her arc is going. I have to assume that the happy nuptials with Loras will not occur, especially now that Jaime is back and Loras enjoys sword swallowing. This would likely mean that Loras joins the King’s Guard.

But will Cersei accept handless Jaime? One of the new clips shows them sharing a romantic moment, so you can assume that they jump right in where they left off. But what happens if Tywin finds out? This brings us to…

Jaime

The handless son of the Hand with the sis he can’t resist.

The favored son has returned to the KL and has apparently paid a visit to the royal barber. Lice problem maybe? Who knows.

Regardless, Jaime and Cersei will surely rekindle their sis-bromance. But as I alluded to above, Tywin is in town and we can assume the two will have to be a little more careful in their quest for incest. Secret Lovers is playing in the background.

Jaime looks to have taken his place back in the King’s Guard and will no doubt be protecting his nephew… er, I mean, his son (the DNA test results have not be disclosed). The clip of Jaime and Joff together looks fantastic and his reemergence as a player in the Capital should only add to a storyline that looks intriguing as is.

But where does Jaime fit in all of it? Will there be repercussions for Bolton because of the loss of the hand? Will Tywin respect him more or less because of the loss and for what he went through in S3? Will he protect his new bathtub buddy? And how will Cersei feel about that?

Brienne

Potentially the baddest woman in the Seven, the sworn protector of two deceased people, and master bather of Kingslayers. (That’s master BATHER).

Here is where a man could possibly loose his temper with a storyline.

If by chance Cersei or anyone else for that matter scoffs at Brienne and A.) throws her in the dungeons, B.) forces her into indentured servitude, C.) makes her perform services in a brothel, or D.) any of the above including any act that could potentially harm the she-beast, I will personally take issue.

After all they have been through, Brienne deserves to be treated with respect and I expect Jaime to make sure she receives it.

But herein lies the beauty of the show. I am so invested in her character that I care enough to threaten an actor’s actions even though he had nothing to do with the writing or the adaptation. And I don’t care. Do not let them F**K with Brienne, Jaime.

Sorry. On with the show.

Tyrion

Married to a minor and lover of a hooker.

The teaser clip of Tyrion in shackles or cuffs or whatever medieval device has him in lock down is downright mind-boggling. What the hell did he do now?

Is this punishment for not making baby with the teenager? Or for the ongoing romance with Shae? Or for slapping King nephew again?

Or could it be something worse? If I am not mistaken, he says something to the tune of, “I don’t know how I am going to get out of this one.”

Either way, the future doesn’t look promising for the half man. Sansa still needs to get out of Dodge as soon as possible, for I fear that if Tyrion receives a punishment in which he is predisposed in another location, Sansa stands the chance of being left out and open to the hobbies of the Joff.

Shae is in an even worse position and most certainly should have heeded the advice of Lord Varys. I will be shocked if she makes it through the Season unless Tyrion runs her ass out of town before the shit hits the chandelier.

Pessimism. Spread it. Speaking of pessimism…

The Future of Joffrey

It is relatively clear by the released clips that the wedding of Joff and Marg goes through. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t go down without a hitch. Are there any weddings in Westeros that do?

Regardless, and as shocked as I would be if Shae survives, I would be even more shocked if Joffrey survives another 10 episodes.

The clock is ticking. There are only so many people you can piss off before it catches up with you, even when you are a King.

So, here are some unlikely ways Joff meets his end. In some weird sadistic way, I hope I am wrong. Joffrey adds a dynamic to the battle of the Seven Kingdoms that would be difficult to replace. Disliked characters are sometimes so perfect that their absence takes away from the production.

However, I still believe it’s inevitable. If it’s not soon, it’s definitely later.

Tywin kills him: The disdain grows. Paw Paw and Grandson aren’t playing ball in the back yard or fishing in the bay together. Paw and Joff get into another argument and Paw tries to send Joff to his room again, this time with no milk and lemon cakes. Joff loses it and attacks Paw only to be immediately stabbed and gutted like the stag in Season 1. Likelihood: low.

Tyrion kills him: If this is the case, it answers the shackle question. After Joff accidentally finds out about Shae, he threatens to tell all on the Littlefinger Talk Show unless Tyrion agrees to let him have one last romp with Sansa. Tyrion gets drunk and axes Joffrey’s head in half and says, “Who’s the half man now, bitch?” Likelihood: very low.

Margaery kills him: After the honeymoon from hell, Margaery sees first hand the monster in which she has wed. Upon the conclusion of a spanking from a kraken tentacle on a romantic beach at a Westerosi all-inclusive Inn similar to a Sandals resort, Margaery has had enough. As the little shit goes for a post-sadistic swim, Margaery takes aim with King Crossbow’s crossbow and creates another asshole in the asshole. Likelihood: moderate

The Lord Oaf of Highgarden Kills Him: As any protective father would do after learning of a honeymoon from hell, the Lord Oaf stuffs Joffrey’s ass with flowers and lights it. As exotic as it may sound, I have a hard time believing that someone that is referred to as the Lord Oaf would have the balls to kill a King. Likelihood: extremely low.

Cersei kills him: Some parents eat their young. I saw it on National Geographic so it must be true. Likelihood: No.

Sansa kills him: This fictional ending needs no fictional story arc as to why Sansa would be justified in killing Joffrey. After all she has been through, this conclusion for Joff would be fitting and quite satisfying for Stark fan loyalists. She should have pushed him off the walk in S1 when Joff was showing off Ned’s head. Of course, she would likely be killed shortly thereafter, but what a sweet revenge it would be. Likelihood: Better than average.

Regardless of the how, Joffrey’s days seem to be numbered. But what the hell do I know? He might make it long enough to be scorched by Dany and the Dragons assuming they ever make it there. But I doubt it. Someone will get him, and war will turn to chaos.

That’s all for me today WiCsters! A man is quite happy to be back in action with all of you and I can’t wait for the histories and lore on the new DVD and of course, the start of S4!

I’ve got one more chapter in the Looking Forward series to come within the next couple of weeks that will concern miscellaneous shit that I don’t know enough about to author a whole post on. So be looking out!

As per the norm, PLEASE DO NOT POST SPOILERS IN THE COMMENTS! I pride myself on staying Unsullied and must do so at all costs. Respect the army!

Until next time, stay warm, be nice to each other, and may there always be peace in your realm.

Without spoilers, “how can things go wrong for the Lannisters at this point?”

Well, I will remind you of past episode information: remember when Ned Stark came to King’s Landing and in Season 1 episode 3, found out that the realm was *6 million* Gold Dragons in debt? And that they tried to remind us of this in Season 3 episode 3 (fully twenty episodes later) when Tyrion becomes the new Master of Coin, and also learns about the millions they owe the “Iron Bank of Braavos”? That was setup for the plotlines in Season 4.

Basically, half of this 6 million was owed by King Robert to Tywin Lannister….part of Tywin’s overall scheme of making the crown so dependent on him that he could order Robert around. The problem, as Bronn pointed out in “Walk of Punishment”, is that because Joffrey is basically Tywin’s own puppet king…..that 3 million is owed to *himself*. The Lannisters took over a throne that was in debt to them….meaning Robert cannot pay them back.

Meanwhile, they owe over 2 million to the Iron Bank of Braavos: characters like the banker Tycho Nestoris have been cast for this season and we’ve even seen them in trailers. So much of the plot in Season 4 will be that *the realm is bankrupt*, even more than it was under King Robert, and the Lannisters are having difficulty placating the foreign bankers who threaten to….(dramatic chord)…..lower the Iron Throne’s credit rating!!!

I mean think about it: the debt crisis only got worse. With Robert gone the Lannisters are never going to get back the 3 million they loaned him. The Riverlands – one of the breadbasket regions of Westeros, along with the Reach – have been burned out by the war’s constant raids. They’re a lawless devastation at this point. Much of their other trade was disrupted. And armies *cost money*, wars are expensive. So they’re right back where they started in early Season 1…..or rather, much much worse than they were.

Nor can the Lannisters grow new soldiers overnight: yes they outnumbered the other factions, but Robb Stark’s campaign slaughtered something like half of their army (Jaime’s army in Season 1, then the green conscripts meant to replace them in “Garden of Bones”).

So the problem is that the Lannisters are becoming increasingly dependent on the Tyrells….just as the Baratheons became dependent on the Lannisters, and look how that turned out. The Reach’s armies barely bloodied their nose in the war, while the Lannisters half lost something like half of their own. The Riverlands are burned out, leaving the Reach the only surviving breadbasket region for the coming winter.

Meanwhile….some are annoyed they didn’t set this up better, but we have one kingdom yet to meet: Dorne, ruled by House Martell. No spoilers but you’ll remember from Season 2 episode 3 “Walk of Punishment”, the one time they’re mentioned prominently, that as Cersei says “the Martells LOATHE us!” — During the Sack of King’s Landing, Gregor Clegane raped and killed Rhaegar Targaryen’s wife Elia Martell, and killed Rhaegar’s children (Thoros mentions this to Sandor when he’s captured by the Brotherhood Without Banners). The Martells were *not amused* and it’s why they didn’t enter the war — giving them Princess Myrcella in a marriage alliance was what it took to prevent them from actively siding with the Lannisters’ enemies.

And the problem is that even the “victorious” side is half-spent militarily, while the Vale and Dorne have fresh armies which can upset the balance.

Cersei would never kill Joffrey – one of the points in the books is that Cersei’s devotion to Joffrey is *absurd*, as she worships the *idea* of Joffrey without realizing that she raised a monster. She’s delusional, thinks he’s brave and intelligent, and will defiantly latch onto this no matter what (she occassionally has lapses in which she admits she might be crazy due to incest genetics like the Targaryens were, though the show played this a bit strongly in Season 2. These are lapses – she always shifts back to saying how great he is – really, that’s the commentary: Joffrey is insane, while Cersei is not insane but continues to delusionally defend Joffrey: which of them is worse becauase of that? Cersei should at least know better.

They seem to have more scenes of Brienne and the Tyrells, discussing why former Renly supporters would now side with the Lannisters (they know Stannis would never forgive them for siding with Renly).

Sansa is not “a minor” in the culture of Westeros – they do not have a concept of adolescence. Once a woman has “flowered” she is “a woman” and thus eligible for marriage. Women Sansa’s age get married all the time. Note that in “Kissed by Fire” Tyrion objected that she was a child, and Cersei specifically explained that she has “flowered” so it’s okay.

The Lannisters’ worst enemy, of course, are the Lannisters themselves. Perhaps an Aesop on how cheaters never prosper: the Starks were a strong loving family able to weather external threats and overwhelming odds because they stood together. The Lannisters are fractious and hate each other. But I mean we saw that in earlier Seasons: Joffrey is such a vicious idiot that he needlessly alienates his own allies, stupidly acting vicious in public or starting easily avoidable city-wide riots. Or, you know, needlessly executing Ned Stark on a *whim*.

…do you honestly think that “peacetime” Joffrey would ever be able to write a tax law?

Well, Tywin’s the real power behind the throne now.

But recall from Season 3 those scenes where Tyrion and later Cersei confront him about inheriting their home seat, Casterly Rock.

As Tyrion succinctly explained, due to the male-preference inheritance system of the Seven Kingdoms, the line of succession was: Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei.

…but Jaime joined the Kingsguard, which renounces all claims to inheritance, meaning Tyrion is by rights the lawful heir.

…..and yet, Tywin just shuts him down and says he’ll never give him Casterly Rock. Well then, who is his heir? Cersei? No, she comes in a few episodes later and he dismisses her as well: she asks if he’s not going to let Tyrion inherit, why not skip to her? And he shuts her down, saying that he thinks she’s not intelligent and not worth inheriting Casterly Rock.

They didn’t quite point it out in bold letters at the time, but ask: who then is Tywin’s heir? The jockeying for position over this may cover much of Season 4. They implied this in the show, but you can tell that Tywin really considers Jaime his heir, not Tyrion or Cersei.

The problem is that Jaime….likes being a Kingsguard. It’s the only honorable thing he’s ever done in his life (he doesn’t regret killing King Aerys, even though it earned him the name “Kingslayer”)…………moreover, Jaime always admire and respected Ser Barristan, revered him, even if Barristan disliked him after he killed Aerys (Barristan was adamant that even though Aerys was evil, for a Kingsguard to actually kill him broke every holy vow they took). But Jaime understood that, didn’t begrudge him for being upset about it.

So Jaime is *not amused* to come back to KL and discover that 1 – Cersei needlessly fired Barristan and made Jaime the new Lord Commander in his place, 2 – that his father doesn’t even want him to be a Kingsguard, and now that they’re running things, thinks he can pressure the High Septon into letting Jaime absolve his vows to become his heir again. Sparks are going to fly over this.

If somewhere in this piece I implied “how can things go wrong” for them, then I did a bad job of translating my thoughts. In fact, I expect there to be a shift of power in the near future (relatively speaking, meaning S5 or S6).

And while I did not mention the debt in this piece, it is a factor that I am exceedingly interested in considering part of it is owed to Tywin and the rest to the Iron Bank. So kudos Dragon, for I definitely should have mentioned it. I think it is something that could be overlooked by casual viewers just because of the lack of emphasis put on it. However, I do expect the debt to be a major issue this Season. Money and the owing of usually is.

The Dragon Demands:
Cersei would never kill Joffrey – one of the points in the books is that Cersei’s devotion to Joffrey is *absurd*, as she worships the *idea* of Joffrey without realizing that she raised a monster.She’s delusional, thinks he’s brave and intelligent, and will defiantly latch onto this no matter what (she occassionally has lapses in which she admits she might be crazy due to incest genetics like the Targaryens were, though the show played this a bit strongly in Season 2.These are lapses – she always shifts back to saying how great he is – really, that’s the commentary:Joffrey is insane, while Cersei is not insane but continues to delusionally defend Joffrey:which of them is worse becauase of that?Cersei should at least know better.

Stop talking about the books. Jesus. This is not a hard concept to understand

I never doubted you for a moment, Oz of Thrones and Knives and Blue Meth!

The Dragon Demands:
So Jaime is *not amused* to come back to KL and discover that 1 – Cersei needlessly fired Barristan and made Jaime the new Lord Commander in his place, 2 – that his father doesn’t even want him to be a Kingsguard, and now that they’re running things, thinks he can pressure the High Septon into letting Jaime absolve his vows to become his heir again.Sparks are going to fly over this.

Enjoyed your factual supplement, TDD, but that last paragraph dances along the edge and projects aspects of the book arc into this discussion. Who knows how the show will treat these issues? Most likely it will play out similarly, but we should let the Unsullied enjoy their angst. :)

As someone who read the books long before the TV show was even a dream, I found nothing spoilery in what The Dragon Demands posted. In fact, all he/she did was bring up some very interesting points that the show’s already touched upon, and they’ve obviously dealt with those issues for a reason.

Is he/she a reader? Of course. Then again, I didn’t know that we readers couldn’t post anything related to what we’ve already seen onscreen.

This is getting to the point where readers (not too fond about that “sullied/unsullied” thing) should just skip these entries meant for non-readers. To be signaled out only because you are a reader is just ridiculous.

No wonder poor Oz of Thrones has been getting fewer and fewer comments on each of his very good and entertaining entries.

The Iron Bank of Braavos is noted for two things in that Tyrion scene in Episode 3.03: that they are owed a gigantic sum of money by the Iron Throne (Tyrion said “tens of millions”), and that if the Iron Throne fails to repay this, the Iron Bank will fund their enemies (aka Stannis, Balon Greyjoy, or maybe even Dany). In other words, the Lannisters risk far more than a mere “Westeros Credit Rating” drop. To get their money back, the Iron Bank can and will help a usurper seize power who promises to repay the crown’s debts.

Yureina: The Iron Bank of Braavos is noted for two things in that Tyrion scene in Episode 3.03:that they are owed a gigantic sum of money by the Iron Throne (Tyrion said “tens of millions”), and that if the Iron Throne fails to repay this, the Iron Bank will fund their enemies (aka Stannis, Balon Greyjoy, or maybe even Dany). In other words, the Lannisters risk far more than a mere “Westeros Credit Rating” drop. To get their money back, the Iron Bank can and will help a usurper seize power who promises to repay the crown’s debts.

That’s a scary bank.

Well yes I’ve read the books, and I’m an Administrator from the Game of Thrones Wiki. Skirted the line at the end there with Jaime (slightly) though trying to point out the setup for it in Tywin’s scenes with his other children in Season 3.

***Oh, I pointed this out at the Wiki: Season 1 specifically said that they are SIX million in debt…this number remains in the books even after the Red Wedding.

The odd thing was that in the TV series, Tyrion says “we owe them tens of millions!” – which is 1 – implausible, given that even 6 million in debt is considered astronomical, much less 20, and more importantly…….2 – Season 1’s dialogue clearly established that the debt was six million.

So my guess is that Peter Dinklage just ad libbed that line, or in-universe, was “Exaggerating”.

At any rate as Bronn pointed out, Roberted owed Tywin 3 million, and now that Tywin basically controls the Iron Throne through his puppet grandson…..that money isn’t really “owed” by the Iron Throne to Tywin anymore….Tywin *is* the Iron Throne at this point. So all of that money they loaned to Robert isn’t coming back (granted, it paid for Tywin’s ability to boss around Robert for years, but now what?)

So the Lannisters themselves just “spent” 3 million on Robert that they can’t get back….and also owe 2 million to the Iron Bank of Braavos on top of that.

I’ve also read the books and yes The Dragon Demand comments where spoilery. He flat out says “Cersei would never kill Joffrey”. While this is obvious to book readers, this is not at 0% probability for show watchers. We’ve seen Cersei atleast slap Joffrey on the show, a scene that wasn’t in the books. You could argue that book Cersei would never do such a thing. Let the Unsullied speculate without “help”.

Varys is the “good guy” and has sworn to always serve the realm, perhaps hiring a faceless man from Bravoos to do the deed will make little Sansa happy and since she’s the inheritor of Winterfell a peace might be secured for the north.

Littlefinger on the other hand is the “evil guy” on the council and seems to have his own plans. As he have said in some episode he “wants it all”, what better way than to weaken the strong Lannisters by putting some Tears of Lys in the boy-kings wine and grow his own power and influence in King’s Landing?

Just an FYI from a Sullied to the Unsullied – The show has already made enough changes in the Lannister storyline (at least with the timelines of certain characters and events) that we don’t know what will happen when enough to spoil anything.

I’ve also read the books and yes The Dragon Demand comments where spoilery. He flat out says “Cersei would never kill Joffrey”. While this is obvious to book readers, this is not at 0% probability for show watchers. We’ve seen Cersei atleast slap Joffrey on the show, a scene that wasn’t in the books. You could argue that book Cersei would never do such a thing. Let the Unsullied speculate without “help”.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. IMO, The Dragon Demand didn’t give anything away, and everyone’s entitled to their opinion, after all.

As for your advise, suggestion, warning or whatever it is you meant to say at the end of your post, fear not. I’m surrounded by plenty of non-readers in the physical world, and I let them speculate without any “help” I assure you.

I merely noted that this witch hunt of readers in these entries is getting ridiculous, and I stand by what I said. Why, you’re the perfect example yourself, in fact.

If you ever have to defend something you said with the words “It’s not a spoiler” what you said was definitely a spoiler.

Look, it’s “not a spoiler” to point out that Locke’s banner looks just like the cross that Theon is on halfway through season 3. But since 80% of Unsullied didn’t notice this before the big reveal, and even for the ones you did it was merely suspicious, well, if someone that I know is aware of the plotline points that out, they’d have to think I’m an idiot if they don’t realize that while they said “Hey, that guy’s banner looks like the thing Theon is on” what I heard was “The crazy guy torturing Theon obviously works for Bolton, which incidentally means Bolton is lying to Robb and is probably not a good guy.”

You can say things that aren’t literal spoilers, but painting neon signs over clues and pointing out which dots to connect is effectively equivalent to just straight up telling people what is going to happen.

It’s like a teacher back in high school that taught one of the science classes. If you went up during a test and asked her whether you got the answer to a True or False question correct, she’d either say “No” or “I can’t tell you that.” She’d do the same for multiple choice questions.

Was she giving students the answers? Technically no. The class test average was still over 100.

So if you want to post something that isn’t a spoiler in order to help the Unsullied understand what’s going on better, don’t post it because it is actually a spoiler. Unless, of course, you think the Unsullied are idiots.

Great thoughts, Oz! As a Sullied I look forward to your take when the season unspools, though GRRM’s decision to have the crown make good on its debts by relying on a little-known House of Heisenberg to prepare an inhalant sold in the Dornish province of New Mexico was an odd turn.

The crown’s debt stayed at 6 million despite having to fight a continent-wide civil war? Wars are notoriously expensive, and the War of Five Kings was/is pretty bad. Choosing between the debt staying the same despite the war and Tyrion’s “tens of millions”, the Imp’s number seems more plausible to me.

Well said. I honestly can’t understand the obsession of some readers to give aways spoilers (or obvious clues to what will happen). I love reading the unsullied and I would never say “you should pay attention to this or that line from the previous season”, even though that’s not exactly a spoiler.

Thanks Oz, that line just floored me and had me guffawing at my desk to the amusement of my coworkers. To anyone (of a certain age) from the UK / Ireland can you imagine ‘our Graham’ from Blind Date introducing a contestant with that line because that’s exactly how I read it!

Oz, I’m a Sullied but never comment on your posts, let the Unsullied stay Unsullied!

I’ll admit The Dragon Demands went a little too far (it’s one thing to say “remember this line from ten episodes ago?” and another thing to say “here’s what that line meant”), but you just went *way* too far. We’re all fans of GoT here, you don’t need to viciously attack people who’ve read the books.

I wouldn’t say retarded, but certainly amazingly annoying. And I agree, I can’t see why they can’t just leave these sections free from their comments?
The argument that someone made above that there’s a “witch-hunt” of book readers is absolutely ludicrous. Book readers are in the abslute majority when it comes to who post on this website, can’t there be just one place that’s reserved for those who haven’t read the books?

Like most book readers, I love reading the reactions from non-book readers. However I think it annoys me almost as much as the unsullied when I see the sullied posting with clarifications and vague hints.

I’ve noticed in another forum that I visit where the same person posts in both book spoilers and no book discussion threads and they take part in discussions on what ‘may’ happen next in the non-book spoilers thread, arrghhhh.

Full disclosure: I used to have trouble keeping myself from “correcting” people who hadn’t read the book. Not pointing out foreshadowing or the very early groundwork that had been laid for things to come, but things like getting someone’s name wrong or “oh no, they misunderstood what happened on the show. That’s not what was going on in that scene!” Ultimately, I managed to wrangle enough self-control to keep my trap shut the vast majority of the time, but I felt the draw.

These days, it took me several minutes to even remember what types of things I felt compelled to say, let alone why saying them appealed to me. I understand the “I know something that you don’t; here, let me help you” drive very well, but sometimes it’s just better to let people make mistakes and figure it out for themselves.

On spoilers: the show is chock full of information and potential clues. Not all are significant and many are hard to interpret in advance. It is practically impossible to remember all of them. Thus having your attention directed to specific clues is definitely a spoiler.

When a reader highlights certain points as above, the spoiler is not in the details themselves (which, formally, are already known to the watchers), but in the extraneous information that _these_ details are significant, as opposed to all the other details.

What’s wrong with some people? Seriously, if sullied post on these threads (I am one myself!) why can’t they restrict themselves to “great post Oz” etc.
There’s no need or requirement for corrections or ‘ah remember this line/plot?’ etc because obviously it’s just too tempting to cross the line for some.
I love reading unsullied predictions and don’t want them tainted with little hints or nudges thank you! Some of you are sailing too close to the wind for comfort in that respect, so please pipe down!
As OITF pointed out there should be NO book discussion, which includes back story. If it hasn’t been on the screen it’s book stuff not show stuff, don’t see how it can be any clearer than that?!
Btw, great post Oz! :)

To comment more on this Oz post, which is really nicely done, first I’ll just agree that it’s a bit much to see some of the comments on this thread that go beyond what we know from the shows and stray into book territory. The “illuminations” aren’t necessary, I believe, and this should be a safer place for the Sullied.

For the Lannisters, again we’re going back to relationships – putting two characters in a room and seeing what happens, though obviously two of the strongest relationships (and by “strong” I mean bonded heavily by close contact, not “good” or “happy”) are the Tywin/Tyrion and Tyrion/Cersei relationships, which have been well established through multiple scenes together (I wouldn’t be surprised if Tyrion/Cersei are the pairing with the most scenes in GoT thus far in the series, given steady, constant contact through Seasons 2 and 3, whereas most of Tyrion/Tywin is late Season 1/all of Season 3. It’s *possible* Tyrion and Bronn have had more scenes together, but their interactions aren’t nearly as heated, and Bronn was absent much of Season 3).

In fact, one of the strongest scenes in all of GoT was the ending of “Kissed by Fire,” with Tywin’s great admonishment of the two “disappointing” children. Other than a couple of episodes that end with beheadings/mass murder/dragon-roasting/battles, it’s the most powerful ending of any episode.

We know Jaime and Cersei have a strong bond as well – but consider that until Myhsa, the two did not share the screen for 25 to 26 episodes. We know Jaime loves his brother, and that Tywin has a lot of hopes placed in Jaime. And he’s back in King’s Landing, which means for the time being, we have all four Lannisters in place together. Consider, then, that:

–Jaime and Tyrion, who have a strong bond, have not been on screen together since “The Kingsroad,” when Tyrion left for his jaunt to the Wall, and Jaime returned to KL. That’s currently a 28-episode gap.

–Jaime and Tywin have not shared a scene since “You Win or You Die,” a 23-episode gap at this point.

It adds a very interesting dynamic to the mix. Particularly as the Jaime who left King’s Landing after killing Jory Cassel and battling with Eddard Stark is very different than the Jaime Lannister who is returning to King’s Landing after losing his hand and bonding with Brienne of Tarth.

Thanks for the link to those guys- they were highly entertaining. Also, I really enjoy watching “What the Flick” review and analysis- some professionals among non book reader fans.

I enjoyed that video as well – I’ll have to check back in on their channel once the season starts.

The “What The Flick?” reviews are great. I discovered them late last season when I stumbled across their discussion of The Rains of Castamere (not coincidentally, this was shortly after I stopped watching the OtakuAssemble ‘reviews’ because they had become so incoherent and borderline spiteful). I found their commentary so entertaining that I ended up going back and watching their discussions of every Season 3 episode, as well as their speculation about the trailer for Season 4. They provide a good balance of analysis and speculation filtered through a perspective that’s equal parts worshipful fandom and humorous irreverence. Definitely one of the better Unsullied reviews out there, and their professional status means that they have higher production values than most. There is one book reader who participates in the discussion, but he does an excellent job of not spoiling anything.

I’d highly recommend all their videos (their discussions of True Detective and Downton Abbey are great as well). However, I would caution any politically-averse readers out there that the reviewers will occasionally touch on politics in a way that not everyone will agree with. This is NOT an invitation to bring politics into the discussion on this site (please, for love of all that is sweet and merciful in this world, let’s NOT go there). Just a friendly warning.

GreatJon of Slumber,
I appreciate the compliment, and you make some damn strong points. It will almost be weird to see Jaime/Tyrion and Jaime/Tywin in the same scenes. You said it best with “dynamic”, especially since I expect Jaime to be a different man since his ordeal.

Jared,
I have heartily enjoyed bringing them to you and I sincerely hope they have helped pass at least a little time over the off season.

StoWoW,
I’m quite sure they are way off base. But if it gave you a free chuckle, then the purpose has been served!

This is something my nephew can’t seem to grasp. I was watching a movie with him a few weeks ago and he was in “oh, watch this part” mode for the whole movie. There was one scene in particular where a character is killed out of nowhere that would have been shocking if I didn’t have him in my ear saying “watch this. This part is crazy.”

On the topic of Joff’s potential death (and I don’t think he’ll survive this season… or maybe the next) what about Margery’s Grandmother? She seems to be the one pulling all or most of the strings in the Tyrell family, and she’s quite unconcerned, that Magery is going to marry King Sociopath. Could be she has planned Joffrey’s demise a while ago.

Tyrion in shackles… I honestly don’t think that the rest of the Lannisters would “just” put him in prison if he killed – or tried to kill – the king.

Or, pure speculation based on the trailer, but should Joffrey be killed, New Guy In The Trailer might be involved. Doesn’t he say something along the lines “the Lannisters are not the only ones who pay their debts”? Sounds kind of ominous.

“Benioff and Weiss‘s commentary is also easy to skip, as there isn’t much new there that we haven’t already heard from them in one of their billions of interviews where they continually pat themselves on the back for all their many accomplishments.”

OZ!! So glad you’re doing better. Hope all is well with Ozette and the Ozlings. Once again, very amusing and a great way to pass the time, especially as THE DAY draws closer and excitement becomes harder to contain.
I love to read the thoughts of the Unsullied so that I can keep myself from asking my Unsullied friends and family questions that are too pointed or overemphasizing a detail that I know is important but perhaps they may have missed. I just love to watch them enjoy the moments and surprises for the first time just as I did when I was reading. Why would anyone want to spoil that?
BTW, yelling at a commenter indicating that they have spoiled something doesn’t help. Let the mods deal with the spoilery stuff. If something slips through, don’t surround it with the neon lights of, “when you said that you spoiled what’s going to happen!” Perhaps there’s a chance that the Unsullied won’t notice and remain forever pure. :)
Looking forward to more of your unspoiled thoughts, Oz!

Um… No Greg. Unless Jaime and Brienne’s nuptials got lost in the sea of nuptials, then I believe you have swung and missed.

It was an obvious place to insert her into the piece. Unfortunately, as a viewer-only, I did not feel I had enough info on her to provide a good individual post dedicated to this great woman. But to not recognize her at all would be a travesty. I think it’s fair to assume that a large part of her future in the short term is going to be controlled by the Lannisters.

I am as sullied as it gets, but I love reading these. Sometimes you’re way off, of course, but I’m always impressed by how much of the subtle, easy-to-miss stuff you pick up on as an Unsullied. A man has clearly been paying attention (and therefore does not think this has a happy ending).

I am an unsullied but based on the trailers that we have seen for the upcoming season, I think you should add those people from Dorne to the list of potential killers of Joff…that hispanic guy didn’t sound too happy when telling Tyrion to let Tywin know that the Lannisters are not the only ones that always pay their debts..and if I can recall based on the histories on the blu rays….the Lannisters (or at least one of the Cleganes) murdered a princess or three from Dorne.

KingMike:
I am an unsullied but based on the trailers that we have seen for the upcoming season, Ithink you should add those people from Dorne to the list of potential killers of Joff…that hispanic guy didn’t sound too happy when telling Tyrion to let Tywin know that the Lannisters are not the only ones that always pay their debts..and if I can recall based on the histories on the blu rays….the Lannisters (or at least one of the Cleganes) murdered a princess or three from Dorne.

It would make a lot of sense, I think. This guy is quite prominently featured in the trailer, and the promotion pics, indicating that he will play a larger role. Combine this with the quote and the bit of history you’re talking about, and I think we have some evidence against him. ;)
Also, in the trailer, there is this clip of him fighting, quite spectacularly, in some kind of official looking arena (?)
Entering the wild speculation territory now, but maybe he kills Joffrey, the Lannisters suspect but cannot prove it, and he fights a duel against the one who blamed him? Idk. Just love to speculate.

Oz,
Glad you are back. Great post, as usual. Love your explorations into the future of Joff….so many scenarios, such possibilities!!! Hey, how deep in the South are you? Do you bleed black & gold? Did Winter come thru your homestead last week and wreak havoc with your roads? I and my cats were snuggled up as best we could, but I need summer, and soon! Looking forward to your next post and the HBO GOT preview that’s coming I believe next week…(saw it set up to record in my system). Take care.

I most sincerely hope, with all my heart, that these dumb book readers who don’t know the meaning of “no spoilers” get spoiled as hell when TWOW comes out. Actually that’s exactly wat I’m planning to do to a friend of mine who enjoys being an asshole to non-bookreaders. Looking forward to it!

So, my response is somewhat complex. I bleed purple and gold but that doesn’t necessarily disclose my location. If it gives you a hint, yes I was in the area that was shut down by two inches of snow. It’s not that we don’t know what to do when it snows, we just don’t know what to do when it sticks to the road.

Sounds like you were in a better place than I when it hit. Luckily, I did not spend 20 hours stranded on the interstate.

So happy that you enjoy my attempt at speculation! You guys never cease to impress with your hospitality.

It’s amazing how spoilery posts are left intact and our posts calling the mods for not doing a better job with this posts get deleted…anyway I just hope the unsullied have the good judgment of not reading the comments of the otherwise awesome Oz posts or they bound to get spoilered :/

Oz, now I am sorry for late response…I’ve been out of commission due to a winter cold. Yes, I am in the land of black & gold, but I am often surrounded by purple & gold people hooting & hollering. In my land, we know we cannot handle ice & snow, only having it once every 5-10 years. We can barely drive down here as it is…Fortunately our roads planned to be closed for those 2 days so we were ok. I love your speculations and the way you see things in the land of GoT. Keep em coming, as often as you can. Looking forward to your final post covering misc. (P.S. I’m also known as mewcat). :)

There are sullied on here pretending to be unsullied. It’s not big & it’s not clever! Is it just so everyone can praise you when they realise your ‘prediction’ was correct. That to me is a hollow victory, and very sad. You know who you are.