craigsub, it's quite common for people to insult the President, especially in this thread, but that lash at bigjohn is precisely the reason I had issues with you during the first incarnation of this thread. Please keep it civil.

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"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

PM - By definition, There is no bigger fool than someone who fools himself. Big John is allowed to tell me to quit fooling myself, thus calling me a fool. THAT is ok by you, but then you decide that I am not being civil.

So tell me, what is uncivil by saying one's post is an indicator of one's own intelligence ?

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Audio - Because it's way cheaper than any other vice I know

i dont imply, or even begin to act like i am some sort of 'know it all' when it comes to politics, and the inner workings of the govt. im not. but, i would consider myself an 'expert' on the type of guy that dubya is. i am surrounded by them, i grew up around them, and my friends fathers are like them. that whole cocky, know it all, never wrong, financially strong, bully everyone around attitude that he exudes makes me sick. the guy has had a silver spoon in his mouth his whole life, and stumbled from deal to deal with smiles, handshakes and promises. people throwing money and accolades at him because of who he was, who he knows, or what he could do for them. his idea of a 'best friend', is the last guy that padded his wallet.

i have no doubt that you are/were a successful business man at whatever it is that you do. which would lead me to belive that you are more like dubya, than you are like me.. which, in all honesty, is probably why we have very opposite opinions. while i respect your right to have your opinion, there is no doubt it is different from mine. but i respectively ask, that you respect my right for MY opinion before you go questioning my intelligence.

First of all, You called me a fool ... and still you see nothing wrong with that. There was nothing in telling me to "quit fooling myself" that was respecting my opinion. Especially in light of the fact I gave no opinions, I just posted some easily verifiable facts. And whether you like it or not, EACH post someone makes is an indicator of intelligence. I never said you LACKED intelligence. YOU made an assumption that I was saying that. Read my post again.

Second, I started every business I own from scratch, and in fact, I hired my father to work for me. He retired rather well, too. I have to see to it several hundred people have good jobs, that our companies do well enough to grow and that the harder working, more successful people in my employ have the opportunity to advance. In the past three months alone, we have added 30 new positions, most paying over $40,000 per year. Since you alluded that I am "more like Bush", and you think Bush got everything he had through "Daddy", you have also insulted me again. And again you were WRONG.

I thought Bill Clinton did a pretty good job. I think George W. Bush is doing a pretty good job. I don't go around tossing the word "idiot" at people.

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Audio - Because it's way cheaper than any other vice I know

i referred to dubya as an "idiot", not you.. on hindsight, maybe that was a little harsh, but i just dont like the guy, or his type.

and when i referred to you as being more like dubya, and less like me, i was simply referring to the fact that you(and him) have money, and i do not. i have NO beef with you, or how you made your fortunes, honestly i dont.. i wasnt trying to imply that you got your wealth by following similar paths.. i was implying that(and i am probably gonna put my foot in my mouth again), wealthy people tend to think similar, and have more republican based ideas.. and less wealthy people tend to have similar ideas, and have more democratic based ideas. i simply meant that it makes sense that you would have similar views and ideas to his because you both are in positions of wealth and financial power.

now, the real diference here is, i can see how dubya uses and abuses his authority and power. thats what i dont like about him.. and compound that onto the fact that i really dont think he has earned or deserves the position that he holds.

and on the other hand, i dont know a single thing about you.. other than you have lots of speakers, and that you are a pretty nice guy by rays and jacks words. i dont know how you do business. i mean, it really doesnt matter, does it?

this is the exact reason why everyone hated this thread so much.. and it is the exact reason why i liked it. 2 grown men, 2 diferent lifestyles, thousands of miles apart, arguing about a subject that neither of them will ever be able to change, and probably never coming to a conclusion that will make either of them happy. am i the ONLY one that gets a chuckle out of this.?

i got no disrespect for you craig..
we agree to disagree, and thats totally cool with me.
you got your ways, and i got mine..

and were both gonna drive our big gas-guzzling cars home, eat a large hearty dinner, listen to our awesome HT systems, and go to bed and not loose a wink of slep over any of this.. at least i wont...

Bigjohn ... You certainly make a lot of broad based assumptions on people you know little or nothing about. If you wish to now say you don't have a beef with me, and that you were not implying anything ... fine. I read everything you wrote quite carefully.

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Audio - Because it's way cheaper than any other vice I know

i made ONE assumption, not a lot.. and the ONE i made was that you, as a man of wealth(which we know is true..and thats not a dig, its the truth), would think similar to how dubya would think, and less to how i would think. thats it. if that offends you that much, or if it bothers you that much, my apologies. i aint trying to offend or make nobody feel bad here man..

where did this go wrong..? this all went bad in translation. reading words on a page, is way different than actually sitting and talking with a guy. i am sure you and i could drink a beer and have a fine time together, and never miss a beat. i can tell you with 100% confidence, that i never had any malicious or harmful intent in anything i said to you. now, about dubya, i could care less.. but, its would be rather stupid of me to sit here and criticise or chastise a respected member of this forum like yourself. come on man, its not even in my character to do that. this was all a simple error in translation.

i would really be displeased if you truly thought i was trying to attack you. i aint even that kinda guy. but, i still dont like dubya.. and if i ever had a chance to met him, i am the kinda guy that would tell him that to his face..