If you aren’t married and don’t have kids, people at work might assume a lot of things: that you can stay late at the office, that you can’t possibly understand their stories about parenthood, that you just haven’t found the right partner (ugh). But those assumptions are often false. Single childless women have busy lives, close relationships with children like nieces or nephews — and many don’t want coupledom or motherhood.

We talk to two women who’ve been researching and writing about being a single childless professional. The writer Shani Silver shares her experience with the career pros and cons, and then Tracy Dumas, a professor at Ohio State University, gives research-backed advice for responding to bias and unrealistic expectations.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, what I’m most interested in learning about in this conversation is whether there is bias against single, childless women, and how the bias shows up.

AMY GALLO: Right. And it sounds like it’s possible the bias could be favorable in some ways. We’ve seen research that shows that single women make as much as married men with children, or close to. But we’re also seeing a lot of evidence that they’re not treated well and thought less of. So, I’m going to be curious to see how that research shakes out.

NICOLE TORRES: Mhm. Yeah. I’m just excited to hear more about new research that’s been done in this area. I feel like more women are delaying having children and getting married until later and later in their professional careers, in their lives, and I don’t know if that has been studied super well, aside from areas like pay. So, I just want to see what we know from research about this demographic.

AMY BERSTEIN: You’re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Bernstein.

NICOLE TORRES: I’m Nicole Torres.

AMY GALLO: And I’m Amy Gallo. This episode, we’re exploring some of the questions and tensions around being a single, childless woman in the workplace.

TRACY DUMAS: Because the organization says well, you know, you don’t have anything, you don’t have anything else to do, so you can take this extra work. And then that can be a problem for a single, childless person who does have an active life outside of work or who’s seeking an active life outside of work.

AMY BERNSTEIN: We’ll talk with Tracy later in the show about the challenges that single, childless women often face at work.

NICOLE TORRES: First, my conversation with a woman who’s been reflecting a lot lately about her own singlehood — the writer Shani Silver. Thank you for taking time to talk to us.

SHANI SILVER: Thank you for having me.

NICOLE TORRES: OK, so Shani, you have been writing a series for Refinery29 called “Every Single Day.” And it’s about what your life as a 36-year-old, single, childless woman like. And in the series so far you’ve written about how online dating is awful after 30, how if you need help you have to hire it, and how in the end you are totally fine. But one thing that surprised us was you didn’t write about work, or you haven’t written about work yet. Why not?

SHANI SILVER: Right. I think there’re probably a lot of reasons and also maybe no reasons. I think what I write about for Refinery is typically what I’m the most passionate about in sort of like sometimes negative and angry way. I certainly think that’s how it can tend to come across, but also, I think when being single has affected me in the workplace, it’s been really that sort of one-off thing that happens that I handle and process and that sort of thing. And with the series on Refinery, it’s more about the day-to-day existence for single women and how that’s different and how it’s also — not overlooked — it’s just nobody knows about it because how would you, unless you have been living like this.

NICOLE TORRES: But I’m just wondering, have you seen any upsides professionally to being childless and single, when you think about it?

SHANI SILVER: Yes. Yes, I have absolutely seen upsides to being single and to not having children professionally, for sure. The biggest upside is just time. I think that I have a lot of time luxury that parents do not have because I’m essentially just taking care of me, and parents are taking care of definitely more than just themselves. And naturally, a greater portion of your day is going to be taken up with that caregiving and raising of a family. And because I don’t do that, there is time in my day that I can give to not just my normal nine-to-five, but also any kind of side project, or creative project, or something that I want to pursue. I just notice that I have far more time luxury than certainly my friends that are parents and my colleagues that have been parents. On the other side of things, I really haven’t noticed any massive negatives to being single. I haven’t ever missed out on professional opportunities or been overlooked in any way, or have been you know, my status has never been frowned upon professionally.

NICOLE TORRES: So, you said no real negatives to the single side of it. Do you think there are downsides professionally to being childless?

SHANI SILVER: Yes, I think so. They’re a little bit more subtle and you have to kind of have experienced them to notice them, but yes. I have definitely seen downsides to not having kids, and that where I’ve noticed it the most is in the forgiveness that is given to people who are coupled, or who have children in the workplace, when it comes to taking time for their personal lives, in a way that same forgiveness is not translated to someone who is single. For example, there’re two that really stand out in my mind. The first one is if someone in the workplace says, I’m going to be gone for the next two weeks because I’m getting married. That’s a really reasonable request. I think between travel and managing family flying in somewhere, and actually having a wedding and then going away for a honeymoon, two weeks is a really reasonable timeframe for that, for sure. And I always wondered if I was just to show up at work one day and say hey, listen. I’m going to take two weeks off because I need to do something in my personal life as well, would that receive the same kind of, or the same level of forgiveness, or level of OK-ness that someone getting married gets? And I don’t think it would, at all. Because there are subtle judgments about any kind of vacation anyone takes, ever. Because we live in kind of a burnout culture. But it definitely seems less important than someone who is married or has children. And I think the other example that I would give would be when parents leave, at the end of the workday, or arrive at the beginning of the workday, at the same time every day consistently, like a hard out at 5 p.m., the assumption being they’re going to obviously pick their children up from school, or relive a nanny or something like that. There’s very little judgment around that. It’s something they have to do every day at a certain time, and this is part of being a parent, obviously. And that’s just what’s going to happen and there is very little negativity surrounding that, nor should there be any negative, negativity surrounding that. But if I was to leave as a single, childless person, on the button, every day at a certain time that would be considered early in our current professional culture, I think that I would be judged for that. There have been questions like, where’re you going? Big plans tonight? Things like that, just sort of those invasive questions that are really nobody’s business. But definitely there are more inquiries around how I spend my time because as a single woman with no kids, it’s less clear.

NICOLE TORRES: No, yeah, those examples really relate to me. The wedding one too is like weddings are this big event that people can, a lot of people can relate to. So, when you’re like I’m taking two weeks off for this, it kind of clicks in their mind versus like, I’m just taking two weeks to find myself, is very different. Have you ever been asked at work, or have you ever been asked in an interview if you’re married or if you have kids?

SHANI SILVER: Um, I’ve been asked a lot. And it’s always in a really subtle way. Like it will just be during the course of conversation, somebody will be like, well I don’t know if you’re married, or whatever, but and part of it’s obvious. I don’t wear a ring, but also the question has just come up really overtly before and I’ve taken multiple routes. I’ve answered it, and I’ve not answered it. And I think to be 100 percent honest with it, when I’ve answered it and said no, that I’m single, it’s been because I want that to be to my advantage. Because I have seen the sort of judgments and assumptions made around women in my age bracket, particularly those that are married, around well, you know, is she going to get pregnant? Is she going to go on mat leave? I’ve seen the judgments around it because I’ve interviewed people and I’ve gone through the hiring process before and I’ve seen firsthand the discussions that come up around women that are interviewing. So, yeah, kind of in a guilty way, yeah I’ve absolutely answered that question when I thought it could be to my advantage and I’ve also refused to answer it because I’ve also wanted to protect my own boundaries and recognize that I have the ability to do that. So, there’ve been times when I’ve answered it and times that I haven’t.

NICOLE TORRES: So, there’s some research on how unmarried women without children, they earn pretty close to what men do. So, you know, all the stuff about the gender pay gap, it’s not as simple as that. Some researchers are calling it the motherhood wage gap because the single, childless women, in terms of their earnings, look pretty similar to men, and it’s really mothers who take a hit. So, on the one hand, if we look at this research, you know, single, childless women are at this pay advantage. But you have written about how not having someone to split the bills with is a loss, so there is a cost to not being coupled up in that way. So, we’re wondering what the happy middle is. Have you found one? Is there a happy middle between these two realities?

SHANI SILVER: I don’t know, but if you find it, I would like you to let me know. [LAUGHTER] Because I can’t seem to locate it, and I think on the one hand, I do benefit from a lack of the motherhood wage gap for sure, but at the same time, I’m still really angry about it. And I don’t think it’s fair. I don’t think mothers should ever take a professional or financial hit. That’s one side of things. The other side of things, obviously, is for single women, I think that that financial hardship is a lot more private and a lot less discussed. Because you don’t really realize that, yeah, I am paying for everything myself with no financial support or splitting of anything, ever. I don’t think that there’s a happy medium. I don’t think there’s a perfect existence for anyone, no matter what their status is, no matter whether they’re partnered or parents; there’s just sort of all of us out there trying to do the best that we can do with what we’ve got, and that’s really the closest I’ve come to reconciling it in my brain is that everyone is just doing their best.

NICOLE TORRES: So, you touched on you know, judgments and assumptions that can be made toward women of a certain age, interviewing for a job or whatever. Have you experienced or felt, or wondered about judgements and assumptions made about your status?

SHANI SILVER: Of course, yeah. I think it’s really hard to interview with somebody in what would be considered the decade when you’re likely to have kids. I think it would silly to think that people weren’t wondering that about me for sure. And the one thing that I have noticed professionally that I’m sort of thought of in a different way, or seen in a different way, or maybe bucketed into a different bucket, is when I’m very open and honest about the fact that I don’t want children at all. And I think there is, there’s a cold assumption about women that don’t want to be mothers. And I have noticed among colleagues that there is just sort of this sort of chilly bucket that I’m put in when I’m very open about the fact that even if I am partnered one day, I do not want to have children be a part of my life, ever. I mean I want to play with other people’s kids. Like let’s not be drastic. Like, love that all my friends have babies and we get to all hang out and go to brunch together and it’s amazing. But I just choose not to have my own, and I have noticed that there can be sort of this stigma attached to somebody who does not want children and is very open about that. And there’s always this like pull for more information about that. Like, is it because I can’t? And then suddenly there’s this understanding and warmth that’s put back onto me, but that’s not the case. It is just simply a decision of mine that I have made and it’s one that I think buckets me as somebody who is not as, not as nurturing of a person, or as warm of a person and I don’t think that’s the case at all and I wish that it wasn’t, because I think there are so many ways to be a nurturer, particularly in the workplace when you are dealing with direct reports whose careers you want to help develop, and whose skillsets you want to help develop, and who you want to be a mentor for. And I love mentoring. Absolutely love it. I love having them. I love being a mentor to others, and I think that I have been saddened by any assumptive coldness attached to me in that way.

NICOLE TORRES: I’m also curious, um, do you think men and women, single men and women, childless men and women are viewed differently?

SHANI SILVER: Oh, my God, yes. I mean, and maybe I’m wrong, but like, I don’t think that there’s any sort of stigma attached to a man who says he doesn’t want kids. I don’t think there’s any stigma attached to a man who says he doesn’t want to get married. But I have seen stigma attached to myself for saying that I want to get married and I’m obviously not married and I’m not dating anybody, so there’s inherent sadness attached to that, even though it’s not sad at all in my mind. And then there’s the inherent stigma of being very open about not wanting children. So, the things that breeds stigma toward women, in my experience, have not bred the same kind of stigma when attached to men.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. The inherent sadness.

SHANI SILVER: The inherent sadness.

NICOLE TORRES: That gets thrown on you. Yeah.

SHANI SILVER: That will be the title of my autobiography one day.

NICOLE TORRES: That’s a good one. That’s a really good one.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Shani talked about some of the bias she’s encountered at work — policies that don’t meet her needs, norms that leave her feeling disrespected, colleagues who think she’s cold. We wanted to see how widely shared those challenges are for women — and how to handle them.

TRACY DUMAS: It is tough to disclose and discuss aspects of your nonwork life that are different from your colleagues.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Tracy Dumas studies the relationship between people’s personal and professional lives. One of her areas of expertise is status — like, marital status. And she’s done research on single, childless employees.

NICOLE TORRES: Tracy, we’re super excited to talk to you. Thank you for making time for us today.

TRACY DUMAS: Thank you for having me. I’m very excited to be here.

NICOLE TORRES: Maybe we can start by you telling us, what are some of the most common stereotypes about working women who’ve never been married and who don’t have kids.

TRACY DUMAS: Yeah. So if we think about stereotypes in general, the stereotype and gender norms are that women are supposed to be warm and they’re supposed to be nurturing, they’re supposed to be helpful, they’re supposed to be supportive of other people. And what we know is that career women in general are seen as competent often but not necessarily as warm. And then when we look at research on how family structure might affect the way women are viewed in the workplace, what we see is that a, a woman who is married and has children gets a bump on the warmth component of stereotype content because all right, well even though she’s this career woman, she has these traditional gender roles. So she’s in a romantic relationship with a man. She has children, so she’s in this nurturing role. And so we do see differences then in the way single women are viewed with respect to this particular stereotype component. So that’s, that’s a part of it. And then if we think more broadly on a societal level, you can think of being a single childless woman almost as a stigmatized identity, right? So there are derogatory terms associated with being a woman who’s not married. And, and then if we’re thinking about your responsibilities and activities outside of work, then they are seen as perhaps trivial or frivolous or less important than the responsibilities of caring for home and caring for a family.

AMY GALLO: So we see them as cold spinsters who have no life.

TRACY DUMAS: Well I didn’t say that, but it was certainly if you put together —

AMY GALLO: I’m just trying to put together what you just said.

TRACY DUMAS: Yes, yes, correct. Correct. That that would be, that would be consistent, right, with what we know from research.

NICOLE TORRES: So, I’m just wondering, what do we know about working women who are single, who don’t have children — what do we know about their lives at work and outside of work?

TRACY DUMAS: What we know from existing research is that their lives are much more complex than is assumed. And if fact, although single, childless people don’t have things like childcare responsibilities, they don’t have the same level of domestic responsibilities, what we do see in our research is that they are reporting more community involvement. They are reporting more personal development and that’s even controlling for age. What we also know from research is that there are assumptions about their lives. There are assumptions about how family structure shapes what you are doing outside of work. There’s this expectation that they don’t have responsibilities, that they are fully unencumbered and able to totally give themselves over to work. They’re going to be available for any extra, extra tasks. They’re going to be available at the, at the last minute to travel, or to stay late, or to work on the weekend. And so, if I think about a personal example, several years ago when I was still a junior faculty member, I was asked to take a faculty candidate out to dinner. You know, can you take this person out to dinner because everyone, and I think it was like the day before, so can you do it tomorrow night, because everyone else has a family responsibility that they have to take care of? So, can you do this? And so the expectation is I didn’t have anything else to do and that I was going to be able to take this person. And I was very happy actually, that I was going to be flying out to present research at a conference. I was very happy that I had a work- —–related excuse that people were going to respect. Because often the now work commitments of single childless workers may not necessarily be respect, or they’re seen as frivolous, or trivial, or not a good reason. So, if I had said, well I’m committed to volunteering, or I sing with my church choir, and I have to go to rehearsal, then there is some concern that those responsibilities may not be respected in the same way.

AMY GALLO: Let me ask about family responsibilities, Tracy. Because single women without dependent children are the people most likely to be caring for their aging parents. So, if you are responsible for caring for a family member, or even a friend who is like family, how do you talk to your boss about needing to take time off for that, for the flexibility you need?

TRACY DUMAS: Yeah, so that’s a great question and I’m glad that you mentioned friend as well, because for people who don’t have children, or who for whatever reason didn’t form a traditional family structure, for many of those people, their friends. There are what sociologists would call their non-kin ties, or maybe their fictive kin ties, become essential to their well-being, to their social support. We don’t have any structures currently for the most part to acknowledge those. So, I would say first of all just understand exactly what are the policies in your organization. Because there are some organizations that have leave options that are not explicitly tied to parental duties, or that are not just maternal leaves. So, I would say, first of all, just become really familiar with the policies in your organization. Then I would say, have a conversation with your supervisor about the accommodations that you need, explicitly what you need, but also I think, have some solutions about how to make it work. As opposed to just hey, I need this time, can you help me? That, I think that’s the way to work in a system that doesn’t have a pre-established set of structures in place to help you meet your non-work responsibilities.

AMY GALLO: Right, that makes sense.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, let me ask this. What are the benefits professionally, of being a childless, single woman?

TRACY DUMAS: Yes. So, on the one hand, there is potentially this deficit with respect to well, you’re not seen as warm. You’re not as high on this warmth component. But there is also this expectation that well, if you don’t have a spouse and children to care for, then you can work just like a man. And there is this notion that perhaps single, childless women are a new version of the ideal worker. That they can be here all hours if we need them to be. They can travel at the last minute, if we need them to be. They can totally devote themselves to work. This is the notion of the ideal worker. And historically, that ideal worker was a married man who had a wife, who was not employed, who facilitated his ability to be this unencumbered person, totally focused on work, totally accessible for the organization whenever they needed him. And he didn’t have a competing set of responsibilities or commitments. And certainly, I think it’s intuitive that let’s say someone, especially who’s building a career, just getting started out trying to establish themselves, then perhaps there is some benefit of being able to have this single-minded devotion to work. That benefit is somewhat dubious. Because there are also some challenges. And so, one of the challenges is that they can internalize this notion that because I don’t have a husband or a child, or household to take care of in terms of nurturing and taking care of other people, then I should be at work all the time. But this idea that many single, childless people often feel as if that set of assumptions also places a burden on them because the organization says well, you don’t have anything, you don’t have anything else to do, so, you can take this extra work. Or, you can take this particularly demanding assignment. And that can then be a problem for a single, childless person who does have an active life outside of work, or who’s seeking an active life outside of work or who’s seeking an active life outside of work. Or, well I don’t have a family now, but I’d like to have one. I’d like to have the time to meet people and go out and just have a fuller life.

AMY GALLO: Tracy, the conundrum you’re talking about of being completely dedicated to work, but you don’t have much of a life and yet, wanting a life, but not having the time to build one: go on dates, meet people, whatever. How do you navigate that conundrum?

TRACY DUMAS: There’s a combination of things. One, is as an individual, being very intentional about drawing those boundaries yourself. So, communicating to your organization, or your co-workers and making a decision yourself that you are going to protect your participation in your non-work life. But certainly what we also see is that the organization has an important role to play. I have some research, it’s another collaboration with Jill Perry-Smith that looks at different types of policies. And so, what we found is that single, childless workers responded more to these, what we call progressive policies. Things like leave time that’s granted perhaps to volunteer, or a compressed work week is a little bit more non-traditional than a standard flextime policy, which would be a situation where I can, instead of working nine to five, I can start at seven and leave at three. So, just shifting the schedule. So that would be a typical standard flextime policy. And those findings from that paper are very consistent with other findings that we’ve seen in terms of creating a culture that is friendly to single, childless people where they feel respected and they feel equal in the workplace, and they don’t feel as if there’s this pressure for them to do something different in the workplace than their colleagues who are married, or have children.

AMY GALLO: So, Tracy if your company doesn’t have those policies however, how, as a single childless woman, do you navigate having a life?

TRACY DUMAS: It might mean having some uncomfortable conversations with your manager, or your supervisor. It might mean talking with human resources personnel who can help you navigate, or maybe who could mediate for you, who could advocate for you in your organization. What is clear, if I think again about research, what is clear from research is that when people have positive, full, active lives outside of work, it doesn’t compete with their contribution in the workplace. There’s a great article that was actually published several years ago in Harvard Business Review. It was called “Leadership in Our Midst” was the title of the article. And that article was all about the civic engagement and community engagement of minority employees and how they learned really valuable skills from managing their church choir, or being actively involved in a minority alumni association of their university. And that people were developing incredible leadership skills in these roles, skills that were very valuable for the organization. And so, those types of activities are certainly not family specific. We could see single, childless people being very active in those types of activities. So, part of I think advocating in your organization is communicating not just this idea that I just want to go have fun sometimes, or I just want to go socialize sometimes, but this is a part of making me and allowing me to be my best in the workplace as well.

AMY GALLO: I wanted to ask about, more about bias against single women. I’ve heard the assumption made that single women without children just aren’t married, or don’t have children yet. As if the presumption is that all women just want to have children and get married and that’s our goal. How should single women respond to these kinds of presumptions when they hear them in the office?

TRACY DUMAS: Right. So, if you’re talking about how to navigate that with a manager, part of it might be talking to them about your strategic plan for yourself. Your five-year plan. Your career goals. And communicating with them, even finding someone in the organization who can play a mentor role, or a sponsor role. What I think is important about that, or would be helpful about that is it gets people enlisted in, involved in supporting you. It also communicates your intention and your motivation for moving forward, and hopefully then what it also does is it enlists them in thinking about how you can achieve those goals, irrespective of what your family situation might be. But it is unfortunate that that is a perception that women have to face. It’s like you know, it’s a problem if you do, it’s a problem if you don’t and you can’t, no matter what you do, you can’t escape problematic assumptions and expectations about ultimately how your family status is going to negatively impact your contribution, or your devotion to work.

AMY GALLO: Right.

NICOLE TORRES: Another thing I’ve wondered about, it’s not necessarily a challenge, but one thing that a lot of people at work connect over is having a partner and their kids. I have been asked several times, just like really, you know, nicely by colleagues, or by people at networking events like, oh do you have children? I want to tell you this story about my children. I want to know if you’ll understand, to me seems like the implication there, and I never really know how to respond. I just, I say no. And then I worry that I’m just shutting that conversation down and I’m not seeming warm, if that is something that’s kind of expected. Do you have any advice for if you’re feeling socially excluded because you don’t have a partner and you don’t have kids? Like, how do you manage that?

TRACY DUMAS: Yes. OK. So, and I totally can identify with that. I’ve experienced that as well. And it’s such a common question. Listen to their story, and my guess is that even if you don’t have your own children, maybe you have nieces or nephews, or maybe you have a good friend who has children. So, maybe what you could say is, well you know, no, I don’t have kids, but your story is really funny, and it reminds me of something that — my college roommate has a daughter who I just adore — and she had a similar situation, or something like that. So, that’s one easy way I think to pivot the conversation. So, no, I don’t have kids myself, but I know kids. I have experience. I’m experienced kids. I’ve interacted with them. [LAUGHTER] I just tried to connect and have commonality that, I think that’s an easy way to do it. And also, I think there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging the work that you do is something that we have in common. And so, some people like to avoid shoptalk, and that’s understandable. And if you do shoptalk too much, then you can be potentially seen as someone who doesn’t have anything else to do. But in terms of connecting with people, I think that’s not a bad way to start, and there’s actually some research that would suggest that. That the tasks that we do, the work that we do, can help bridge differences as well. Because it is something that we have in common when we work in the same organization. So, I think those are some ways to connect and deal with that, because I think that is a very real concern, that how do I connect with these people when my life outside of work is so different from everyone else’s.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Tracy, thank you so much for sharing all your insight on this.

TRACY DUMAS: Thank you very much for having me.

NICOLE TORRES: I’ve been thinking about the upsides and the downsides of, that’s kind of like how I thought about, how I put some of this research and this idea into context.

AMY GALLO: Right.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, what do you mean?

NICOLE TORRES: And — well Tracy touched on like there are benefits and downsides to being a single, or un-partnered woman with no children at work. And so, for me, like, some of the upsides of that, I feel like there’s a lot of mobility that comes from being single, or childless. So, I was able to move from New York to Boston like, not on a whim, but really without having any intense negotiations with a partner, or with a family. I was able to make that decision. So, there’s a lot of mobility there when I was single and 23, I could make the decision to move for work. I could have a more single, not single-minded, but I was able to focus on myself and my career, and my personal growth, and opportunities in a way that was unencumbered. I think compared to if, now that I have a partner and even if I was to have kids it would be very different. So, I think that mobility, freedom, personal growth and time to pursue your own individual interests, those to me are all upsides of being single and not having children. But there are — some of the downsides for me are like I think I have terrible work life balance because I don’t have those family responsibilities. I have additional time and I feel like I should be spending that on work. Especially at this point in my career too, which is, it’s earlier, I’m still starting out. I’ve been wanting to prove myself. I want to take advantage of every opportunity that comes my way. So, I very rarely say no to things. So, my work life balance is terrible. And then also, I think it’s true too that managers or colleagues, there can be more expectations for single, childless women to put in more time, or do more work because —

AMY BERNSTEIN: Or to take up the slack.

NICOLE TORRES: To take up the slack. Because it’s known that there aren’t these other obligations, or it’s assumed that there aren’t these other obligations waiting for you. So, that’s a downside. I think FOMO is a downside too. Like, I’m seeing more and more friends and acquaintances on social media and Instagram and things like, people post pictures of their babies, and their partners, and their pets, and so there’s a FOMO that comes with that too and that comes up in the workplace when people are talking about their weekends and going on family trips, or going to kids recitals and things that — it can make me feel weird sometimes to talk about my somewhat uneventful weekend.

AMY GALLO: You know, the interesting about that though is that if you look at the happiness studies, people with kids aren’t happier. I just think there’s something more legitimate about it. Like, if you posted on Instagram, you at your sculpting class and compared that to your friends who were taking their kids to the zoo, the zoo trip seems more legit when you are probably much more happy in the sculpting class. Like, it’s hard to figure out why that FOMO would happen when we know, says the working mom, that having kids isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. And there’s like a certain sense of guilt maybe that comes with having more free time than other co-workers. I do have the time to work later, or just work at weird hours and to raise my hand for more things. And that, I don’t know. I’ve felt guilty about that sometimes which is weird, but —

AMY BERNSTEIN: Wow, so I think of working moms as just guilt ridden all the time.

AMY GALLO: Always. Always.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, I guess the guilt thing is just a matter of perspective.

NICOLE TORRES: Well, I think we work in a work culture that just makes you feel bad for not working all the time.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, because that whole thing about the ideal worker, filled me with horror. And I recognized a lot of it, and it took me to a very dark place. And I think you’re talking a little bit about that too Nicole.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah. Yeah. I think that comes up.

AMY GALLO: Do you feel like you’re expected to be the ideal worker?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, I think it’s totally self, I mean it’s self-inflicted. I don’t think anyone expects any of us to be, but I think that the, that saying no is frowned on.

AMY GALLO: Right. And I really related to her story of saying she was so relieved she had a legitimate work reason to say no to that request to take the professor out to dinner. And I do, I think I rely on the legitimacy of having a child a lot as an excuse for not doing things.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, one of the things I’ve learned is that you don’t have to give an excuse. You can say, I can’t. And that’s enough. You don’t actually have to give chapter and verse on why.

AMY GALLO: Although given all the bias that we talked about with her, do you feel like just saying no without an excuse is, would somehow harm you?

AMY BERNSTEIN: I don’t. I don’t and it sort of depends. I mean we don’t get asked to do that sort of thing, but for a work dinner let’s say, I think it’s better if you don’t want to go on a work dinner, let’s say a group outing, it’s better to say I can’t than I’m too tired. You know what I mean?

AMY GALLO: Right, right.

NICOLE TORRES: Something I’ve wondered, like in thinking about this and hearing Tracy, I’m wondering what you both have experienced or thought about this, but I feel like there are assumptions about how people who don’t have children spend their time. Maybe not even assumptions, but it’s just like that because you’re not taking care of children, or you don’t have family responsibilities, like what you’re doing outside of work can be seen as more frivolous. It’s optional. And so, like sometimes I just hear what co-workers think I do outside of my work and it’s like they think I’m at the club all the time.

AMY GALLO: Wait, you’re not at the club?

NICOLE TORRES: I’m never at the club. Never at the club. But it’s like yeah, Nicole’s going out, she’s going to have a lot of fun. This is how she spends her evenings and her weekends, and I find that hilarious because it’s not true. But I’m wondering if that, does that change when you get married? I feel like it must change when you have children. [OVERLAPPING VOICES]

AMY GALLO: I think all our co-workers assume I just go home and do laundry and watch TV. Right. Because that is the assumptions you make about married people. As a working mom and other fellow working moms, we’ll always say, what did we do with our time before because having a child does feel like such a huge, ginormous time suck that you’re sort of like, and so you imagine all these things you should have done, like go to the club, or visited with friends, or traveled, or picked up hobbies and so then you sort of get wistful about those things and I think we project, in some ways positively on single co-workers as you must just be having so much fun because I am not. Right.

NICOLE TORRES: That’s so interesting, yeah.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. One of the things which I think I was somewhat aware of going into the conversation, but was really emphasized was how excluded single, childless women must feel when the conversation turns to children, or turns to partners and I mean, I had a friend who’s a lesbian point out to me once, she said pay attention to how quickly straight women mention their husband and kids in a conversation. And it really was, including myself, it was frightening. It was like within the first two minutes of almost any casual work conversation.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, I mean one of the things that occurs to me when this happens, and it happens all the time, is it’s totally understandable that people, women who are married to men and have children have a lot to talk about on those fronts. I mean those are very absorbing aspects of their lives. It’s just you know, the fact of the matter is if you’re not married to a man and you don’t have children, it’s a conversation that has only limited interest.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. What do you think about asking people, do you have kids? I feel like that’s such a common question and yet I’ve also heard people say that is so rude to ask someone you don’t know. If you don’t know them personally enough to know whether they have kids or not, don’t ask the question.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I don’t know. I think it’s kind of harmless and it’s a way to connect. OK, I did it last week. [LAUGHTER] It was a conversational gamut when you’re just trying to figure out what you’re going to talk about. It’s a little less ridiculous and you know, how about those Yankees? You know.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah, right. I think it is, I think it is relatively harmless. I had brought it up as a, an example because maybe when it makes me feel the most uncomfortable is when someone is telling me a story or about to tell me a story and then they preface that by saying, oh wait, do you have kids? And I say no and then it’s like, will I not understand your story? I don’t know. I don’t think it’s rude or even intentionally like made to be uncomfortable, but it’s something that I’ve noticed I can stumble to answer later.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. It can be awkward on the other side, but you know, a no usually handles it.

NICOLE TORRES: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: And I think the presumption that you wouldn’t understand the story because you don’t have kids is the rude part maybe of that scenario, not necessarily the question.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Right, exactly. But there’s another part about do you have kids, which is that we’re all looking for the thing that lights up the person we’re talking to, particularly a stranger and usually kids is what lights people up. They love to talk about their kids or their grandkids, or whatever. And so, that’s really, it’s just an honest attempt to find out what, to see someone at his or her best.

AMY GALLO: Right.

NICOLE TORRES: Totally.

AMY GALLO: One of the other things that we briefly talked about with her, that I was really interested in was also the identity as a friend that we talk about identities as being single, married, with children, without children, but then single women and married women have other identities that aren’t researched or validated. I mean I think friend is probably top three for me. And yet, no one’s like, how are your friends, or when you say I’m going to meet a friend that feels like something that’s really easily pushed, as opposed to I’m going to pick up my kid. And I’m just curious what you all thought of that as a [OVERLAPPING VOICES] identity.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I went in another direction because I remember from being single that my friends were my family more so than they are now. And so, if a friend was in need, it was much easier for me to drop everything and to be there.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean I had one of those experiences this summer where a friend who had very little biological family, needed support, and I had to drop everything and go. And I was hesitant about sharing it, because I thought it wouldn’t be seen as legitimate, but then when I did, people were incredibly understanding.

AMY GALLO: We love hearing from our listeners. Feel free to email us at Womenatwork@HBR.org and let us know what you think about the show and what other topics you’d like us to cover.

NICOLE TORRES: And one last thing: I want to remind everyone about our Women at Work newsletter. It’s free, it’s short, and it’s a really good way to learn about new research and advice that we’re publishing at HBR. I write it each month, and I’m always looking for more feedback and ideas. So, go to HBR.org/newsletters to sign up, and let me know what you think.