What is this whole "integrity" of the draft? When was it established? When the ATD started, some 8-9 years ago? The ATD is a completely different ballgame from when it started. LL is the only guy who has been through every one of these, and while that's hardly relevant, it emphasizes the point that this ATD 2011 is not ATD 1. I don't know about anyone else, but I think as over time this draft has changed, the expectation of it has changed too. We've had almost a complete turnover of GM's since the start, so doesn't it make sense that expectations and standards don't stay identical throughout, for better or for worse? Unless I have the definition of integrity screwed up, wouldn't that change as time progresses too, if it even exists hypothetically?

If this stunt was pulled 6 years ago, would anyone have cared? Not at all, because there was no playoffs. Now, it's obviously a big deal.

What if I'm Dreakmur at home, Cognition at work, and Billy_Shoes at the public library?

No one would know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vancityluongo

What is this whole "integrity" of the draft? When was it established? When the ATD started, some 8-9 years ago? The ATD is a completely different ballgame from when it started. LL is the only guy who has been through every one of these, and while that's hardly relevant, it emphasizes the point that this ATD 2011 is not ATD 1. I don't know about anyone else, but I think as over time this draft has changed, the expectation of it has changed too. We've had almost a complete turnover of GM's since the start, so doesn't it make sense that expectations and standards don't stay identical throughout, for better or for worse? Unless I have the definition of integrity screwed up, wouldn't that change as time progresses too, if it even exists hypothetically?

*phew*

I thought you meant that ex-GMs who are no longer here, like GBC, pappyline, BM67, etc, had abandoned the draft and taken its integrity along with them, leaving us with a gong show. Your explanation makes a lot more sense.

1) I find it pretty funny, and this is coming from somebody who loves the ATD and takes it pretty seriously as a historical project. But still...a little ******* sock-puppeteering always adds flavor. Reminds me of the old wild west days of the HockeysFuture boards where users could just change their names with every post (of course, we also had our IP addresses displayed for all to see right under our posts and few people knew how to use proxies at that point).

2) I don't think the integrity of the ATD has been seriously compromised. VanI's teams were always sort of wild and experimental, and I truly believe that he has always cared much more about the history of the sport than about winning the Milt Dunnell Cup. I see no reason to believe that his ************* has actually affected the outcomes of the drafts in which his socks have been involved, but then again chaos theory would suggest otherwise (ie. removing VanI's socks would have had a huge snowball effect even if he wasn't trying to cheat).

3) This makes me feel even worse about winning the Milt Dunnell Cup in ATD#11, which I already felt was sort of like the special olympics given how little participation we had by the end. I view my championship in that draft as sort of like New Jersey's Cup in the strike year.

4) The only thing that really pisses me off about VanI's behavior is the absurd little bit of theatre he put on during the discussions about trading - the upshot of which is of course the monstrous three trade rule compromise we had to live with through ATD 2011. I find that whole episode, in retrospect, quite pathetic.

5) I suggest we table all discussion of VanI at this point and simply exclude him from the voting in this draft. I am sure that eventually we'll let him back in one of these things, but there is no use now trying to predict when we'll be ready to take that step. Better to leave it for future discussions.

6) Now it makes sense to me why a pair of "rookie" GMs would take Hugh Lehman when they did. I was waiting on Lehman, myself, and was positively shocked to see him go at that point to that team. It probably would have changed nothing as I wasn't going to take a goalie before Lehman went, anyway, but not knowing who I was dealing with in The Sabre definitely affected how I thought certain picks would go. So much the better, though, as my research on Hugh Lehman indicates that he was maybe the single biggest playoff choker of all-time.

Now I see why VI always let noobs with 1 post join even after others questioned whether it was a good idea. Lol. I'm out at a bar and still can't get over how hilarious this is. I mean, the ZM persona has been in the ATD as longnas I have and I never thought anything about him except quits too easily in the face of criticism (basically the opposite of VI who will argue to the end). Lol, well played seriously.

Yeah, there's no way something like this could slip past them all.... oops!

What I'm saying is, this will never happen again, with us having been through this once.

And I don't feel bad for myself or the other mods for not catching it sooner. the only way we would have, is by checking everyone's IPs. We're volunteers and we're not that serious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe

Now I see why VI always let noobs with 1 post join even after others questioned whether it was a good idea. Lol. I'm out at a bar and still can't get over how hilarious this is. I mean, the ZM persona has been in the ATD as longnas I have and I never thought anything about him except quits too easily in the face of criticism (basically the opposite of VI who will argue to the end). Lol, well played seriously.

Yeah, I trashed many a ZM pick over the years and never really heard a thing back about it. Was he just a testing ground to see how GMs perceived certain picks?

I recall ZM picked Randy Burridge in AAA11. VI then banged his head against the wall for overlooking him for so long.

I wonder if there were other odd incidents like this. I kept thinking back to things like that, and thinking, "see, you're crazy, they are clearly different people, there has to be an explanation for this."

The MLD11 voting was wacky too. I was fortunate enough to get Tom Barrasso because no one wanted his surly attitude as a backup in the ATD. Then and now, I think he was clearly the best player in the MLD. I think all the voting reflected that. But ZM left Barrasso out of his top-5, and Kono actually ended up winning top goalie and player honours. I chalked it up to a noob with some sort of bias against Barrasso, but oddly... it was VI. VI had mentioned to me towards the end of the ATD that the BPA was definitely a goalie. We were thinking of the same goalie.

Also, during ATD11 I think ZM called out EB as being part of an "old boys club" in the ATD, getting votes on reputation or something to that effect.

For a chuckle, when Dave Schultz was taken in MLD11 by ZM, I listed his position as "goon", just to see if anyone would even notice. I quickly got a PM from VI about the disrespect.

So...back to "hockey"...can anyone tell me what our plan is for reseeding of the division winners after the conclusion of the divisional playoffs? I'm guessing the seeding will go by regular season divisional ranking with regular season total vote score as the first tiebreaker and regular season first place votes as the second tiebreaker.

Does this sound about right? I haven't heard any concrete plan as to how we plan on running this reseeding thing (which I think is an interesting idea, at any rate), and would like to get it nailed down before the playoffs start. One thing that concerns me somewhat - is the reseeding going to be inter-conference or intra-conference? If we just reseed all of the division winners into a single new pool, then the conferences are rendered completely irrelevant, which I think is a poor idea. I think it would be better to re-seed the division winners of one conference into a four team bracket and do the same with the other conference - with the winners of each bracket meeting in the finals. This would preserve the assumption about the meaning of the conferences that most of us made at the beginning of the draft while allowing for re-seeding after the divisional round.

You guys can kick me out too for this comment, but the bickering in this thread has just made my day after a certain hockey game.

Seriously, a guy creates a fake account so he can enjoy the ATD without all the drama he had to deal with as commissioner, and now that he's caught, he gets "exiled" from the board? Really? I've always openly been at VanI's side until the end, but I think it's ridiculous to see the Colin Campbell wannabes declaring life time bans...yo, this is the guy that was forced out of this draft, and had a hand in the end in four teams. Good work, ATD police.

My two cents for whatever its worth is that no team with any association to VanI should be allowed to have a vote, and maybe VanI shoudn't comment on any series'. But him single handedly ruining the "integrity of the ATD"? That's ridiculous. As controversial as this will be, the integrity of the ATD was tarnished when every original GM but Leaf Lander (who is a trooper) opted out before this point. It's still a great pass time and learning experience, but IMO some of the comments in this thread are over the top. Probably include this one with it.

edit: I do agree though that it is incredibly ironic, hilarious, and fitting all at the same time that VanI was the biggets advocate of getting this board out of the Fantasy section. Nope.

Think of it in real life terms: If one owner of an NHL team was found to actually have under the table deals with 3 other NHL teams, and thus have a vested interest in those teams, or worse, having a say in how trades went for that team, he could quite easily create trades that, on the surface, don't look like they are colluded trades, but are a very clear win for the team he actually owns. This owner is found out later. Not only is the NHL now the laughingstock of the entire world, but the integrity of the NHL itself is shot to hell and back, and EVERYTHING this owner has ever had his hands involved with in the NHL is now questioned as legit. This is something the NHL would *never* fully recover from. Obviously, the situations are not really comparable here, but the principal is still the same, and *because* VI has had such a large hand in getting the ATD to where it is today, it makes this all the more worse.

And don't fool yourself.. he made those fake accounts to reach his own goals for the draft.. his goals, that only he cared about, and they ended up affecting the entire draft. Think about it. All the players that ZM/Sabre/etc. drafted, those players may have went to other GMs that were looking at those players. Even though VI's teams didn't go very far, his actions have had much further reaching effects than everyone is suggesting here - the playoffs of every ATD that VI has been involved with with proxy teams are now compromised, and all could have gone entirely different. We will never know now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord

I have no idea if VI wants back in after all this. But if he's not a mod, and if he's not running it, and if he's got just one account, and (most importantly) if his presence isn't causing other GMs to stay away, maybe it would work in the future.

This is the biggest concern. People see what VI did, and no longer trust the integrity of GMs in the draft, and stay away from it. If VI could get away with it, then anyone can. It's actually not very hard to maintain a couple of aliases on the internet. Believe me, I know from personal experience. I did something like this a long, long time ago, and had a lot of people fooled for years. Not something I'm proud of, but it's something that is possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bugg

Although I thoroughly revel in the research and competitive side of the ATD, I agree with the argument that it's all in fun.

The dictionary defines "fun" as the following:

What I cannot reconcile is how creating alternate accounts and co-GMing with said alternate accounts is fun by the above definition- for VI or anyone else. Whether he intended to do it or not, VI undoubtedly gained an unfair competitive advantage, ruining any possibility at enjoyment for the other GMs involved. Imagine if this charade had extended into the playoffs.

To make matters worse, he managed to rope in a (so far) innocent rookie GM as part of his manipulation. That this occurred after his diva-ish behavior drove other potential GMs away at the very beginning is just unfathomable to me.

As was said, how can we be sure VI hasn't done this before? We can't. I cannot look back on previous ATDs with the same sort of enjoyment, nor can I look forward to others, unsure that VI or someone else has more skillfully perpetrated the same trick.

I'm not going to participate in this again. Clearly, VI wants the ATD done on his terms, and damn everyone else. I say give it to him, and let him invent 39 accounts to fill out the balance of the teams next time. Only then will he be truly happy.

You probably won't be the only one when all is said and done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur

I'm not saying it is anybody's fault. The mods had no reason to check IPs because nobody had a clue.

Unless you're going to continually check IPs for all further ATDs, it can happen again.... and even if you do, there are still ways around it.

There are many, many ways around it for those who are committed enough to getting away with it. Checking IP addresses to figure something like this out is equivalent to knocking on a suspect's door and asking them if they murdered the guy. Proxies are really, really easy to use, and you can always do the draft from someone else's house, and claim that you are friends with that person. Who would know otherwise?

Think of it in real life terms: If one owner of an NHL team was found to actually have under the table deals with 3 other NHL teams, and thus have a vested interest in those teams, or worse, having a say in how trades went for that team, he could quite easily create trades that, on the surface, don't look like they are colluded trades, but are a very clear win for the team he actually owns. This owner is found out later. Not only is the NHL now the laughingstock of the entire world, but the integrity of the NHL itself is shot to hell and back, and EVERYTHING this owner has ever had his hands involved with in the NHL is now questioned as legit. This is something the NHL would *never* fully recover from. Obviously, the situations are not really comparable here, but the principal is still the same, and *because* VI has had such a large hand in getting the ATD to where it is today, it makes this all the more worse.

Why all the hyperbole, jarek? Does anyone still fret about the Black Socks scandal that rocked major league baseball? The word never is almost never appropriate, in any context.

Quote:

And don't fool yourself.. he made those fake accounts to reach his own goals for the draft.. his goals, that only he cared about, and they ended up affecting the entire draft. Think about it. All the players that ZM/Sabre/etc. drafted, those players may have went to other GMs that were looking at those players. Even though VI's teams didn't go very far, his actions have had much further reaching effects than everyone is suggesting here - the playoffs of every ATD that VI has been involved with with proxy teams are now compromised, and all could have gone entirely different. We will never know now.

Yes, of course. The snowball effect of simply having those teams in the draft cannot properly be accounted for. Those teams were not particularly good, however, and I don't think his presence invalidates the results of those drafts. Had VanI won or gotten deep into the playoffs, perhaps knocking off potential winners, then we would have a big problem...but he never did. This is rather like point-shaving scandals in modern pro sports. Yes, it affected the results, and the consequences of those actions and consequences of those consequences obviously had an effect on the eventual outcomes, but the effect was probably fairly small. Invalidating all results since ATD#11 would be a draconian overreaction, in my opinion. If anything, VanI's double presence in those drafts made constructing a championship team harder than it would have been had his socks been actual rookie GMs. I actually remember being surprised at the quality of ZM's "first" entry in ATD#11. Had VanI actually argued for that team, it might have gone somewhere.

Quote:

This is the biggest concern. People see what VI did, and no longer trust the integrity of GMs in the draft, and stay away from it. If VI could get away with it, then anyone can. It's actually not very hard to maintain a couple of aliases on the internet. Believe me, I know from personal experience. I did something like this a long, long time ago, and had a lot of people fooled for years. Not something I'm proud of, but it's something that is possible.

Most people don't overthink things in this way, though. At this point, I think the ATD has enough dignity that it will survive this shock without any major hiccups. A repeat of 40 teams was probably not in the cards, anyway, and I really don't think we'll have a participation problem going back to 32 teams, which is a better number to begin with (easiest to resolve in an "everybody in" playoff system and closest to the size of the real NHL). I think this incident is probably more off-putting to veteran GMs than it is to rookies. I'm pretty annoyed to think that we've had Josef Goebbels running this thing for a couple of years now, but I don't see why a rookie GM would be so bothered by such a past incident. Everyone knows the internet is a **** show, anyway.

extremely suspicious and i think the most prudent decision is to ban all of them. actually, would be safer to ban all TML fans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian

Not to belittle the time we have all spent on it, but really?

We're talking about a fantasy draft on a web forum. The only people who care about the integrity and reputation of the draft are the same people who are participating.

If you want to be outraged save it for someone who deserves it like the guys on Wall Street who just finished taking the world to the cleaners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy

Meh, I don't really think what he did was that big of a deal. VanI has contributed a lot to this forum and I don't think anyone genuinely cares about the history of hockey more than him. I don't think he would ever do anything mean-spirited or grossly unethical. As has been pointed out, his teams haven't really ever been all that successful and it's safe to say he wasn't rigging votes. Even if that wasn't the case, I would never believe that VanI would do anything like that. Obviously, he was just trying to make the draft run smoothly when he created Zamboni's team. It was a stop-gap measure, that got out of hand when his passion for the draft took over. If anything, he's guilty of being overly-enthusiastic about the ATD.

Was it poor judgement? Sure. Do the optics look ugly? Yes. Was it malicious? Definitely not.

VanI is a pretty good guy, and his contributions to the ATD are great. I think banning him would be more dramatic than productive.

"Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances" -Herodotus

agreed

not such a big deal, imo. seems to me VI was more concerned with having more teams than with cheating. i think VI has been a valuable contributor in ATD/MLD/etc.

Why all the hyperbole, jarek? Does anyone still fret about the Black Socks scandal that rocked major league baseball? The word never is almost never appropriate, in any context.

Way to ignore the rest of my post. I did mention the situations weren't entirely comparable, and I doubt the effects will trickle down all that much in the end. It is, however, a black mark on the ATD, that much is clear.

Quote:

Yes, of course. The snowball effect of simply having those teams in the draft cannot properly be accounted for. Those teams were not particularly good, however, and I don't think his presence invalidates the results of those drafts. Had VanI won or gotten deep into the playoffs, perhaps knocking off potential winners, then we would have a big problem...but he never did. This is rather like point-shaving scandals in modern pro sports. Yes, it affected the results, and the consequences of those actions and consequences of those consequences obviously had an effect on the eventual outcomes, but the effect was probably fairly small. Invalidating all results since ATD#11 would be a draconian overreaction, in my opinion. If anything, VanI's double presence in those drafts made constructing a championship team harder than it would have been had his socks been actual rookie GMs. I actually remember being surprised at the quality of ZM's "first" entry in ATD#11. Had VanI actually argued for that team, it might have gone somewhere.

I'm gonna be honest, I think the effects of VI's presence in these other ATDs were more profound than you are suggesting. Looking at least at his ATD 2010 team, there are some players there that could have really helped others in their quest for a championship, certainly some of the depth players at least. Those ATDs would have went completely different.

Quote:

Most people don't overthink things in this way, though. At this point, I think the ATD has enough dignity that it will survive this shock without any major hiccups. A repeat of 40 teams was probably not in the cards, anyway, and I really don't think we'll have a participation problem going back to 32 teams, which is a better number to begin with (easiest to resolve in an "everybody in" playoff system and closest to the size of the real NHL). I think this incident is probably more off-putting to veteran GMs than it is to rookies. I'm pretty annoyed to think that we've had Josef Goebbels running this thing for a couple of years now, but I don't see why a rookie GM would be so bothered by such a past incident. Everyone knows the internet is a **** show, anyway.

It will survive - just expect more people to take the way of Mr Bugg, and unless every post regarding this matter get deleted, other new people will be able to see what happened themselves, and decide for themselves whether or not they want to participate in the draft. Some will decide not to. I think it'll be challenging to get to 32 teams the next couple of drafts.

I've known Zamboni Mania fo
As long as there are no other GMs posting from Asia, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I want every GM's IP looked into before they are cleared though.

Hopefully, you don't count Australia as 'Asia', or else I'm in trouble!

---

I guess I'll venture and give my thought on this whole situation.

First of all, it's quite sad, because I thought highly of ZM teams of ATD#11, while always been a great fan of Nighthawks' teams. I thought the Sabres' team was fantastic, most of the selection was magnificent for a rookie GM. I guess it was too good to be true.

Reading every post, I'm in between the 'laissez-aller' of 70's and overpass and the the rigidity of Jarek. I'll put this point by point:

1) First of all, the situation is very hilarious as TDMM pointed out. I'm definitely not offended by what happened. I'm in Australia, the life is great, the girls are beautiful. It's the Internet, let's not make it a bigger deal than it should be.

2) We already had this little discussion one week ago, but the ATD is a fun experience first and foremost. Yes, it is indeed sad and a little pathetic that a person would go this far for his Internet amusement.

3) We definitely had are ups and down between us, but I always had great respect in the knowledge and the dedication of VanI. His knowledge alone and research he brings alone should carry alot of weight into keeping him around

4) The ATD is only the ATD, but I always felt it was one of the best thing the Internet had to offer to me and definitely the best HFBoards had to offer. HFBoards and the ATD cover 90% of my time on the Internet. We have to respect how highly each individual view the ATD as an entity. Some GM's just select players without arguing, some takes some time to research and argue, some are hardcore fans and some ... well ... Anyway, I respect the opinion on Jarek and how disgusted he is about the situation. Although I don't necessarily 100% agree with it, I'm kind of sad and also a little bit angry that such a great GM like VanIslander decide to play such a childish and 'teenager' like game of the 'advancement' of the All-Time Draft. If he had done all this for gaining a competitive edge, at least we could have brushed it behind immaturity, but as I truly believe it was really for the advancement and the good measure of the ATD, I feel VanIslander really got a problem that perhaps goes beyond the Internet. Really, what was he thinking? And the worst is that he played that game for several years.

5) I was the commisioner in ATD#11 and I was one of two GM collecting the results for the regular season and the playoffs. I still own a excel copy of the regular season voting and the first two round of playoffs. In the way I tabulated the results, I cannot be conclusive for whom ZM/VanIslander voted for in the regular season. However, I know for whom VanIslander voted in the first round of playoffs. In the matchup between the Detroit Red Wings (Spitfire11) and the Colorado Avalanches (ZamboniMania), he voted for the Avalanches in 7 games. It didn't changed the results, as the Red Wings won anyway, but honestly this bother me alot

There's other issues in here, but I don't want to go on and on and losing too much time on this. My personal opinion goes like this: although obviously this is something very insignificant in the grand scheme of all our lives, it's still remain an important issue on the ATD. I still don't get my head around someone who I thought was a professor in some foreign country do that kind of thing. Obviously, any of VanI or his clone shouldn't participate in any discussion/voting until the end of this draft. Like some poster like Sturminator pointed out, we shouldn't rush into a verdict on this situation, we probably should talk about it after the champion is crown. One thing is sure is that we should take our time and make the right decision.

---

With all that, I don't have time to send my votes today, is it okay if I do so in 20 hours?

I'm gonna be honest, I think the effects of VI's presence in these other ATDs were more profound than you are suggesting. Looking at least at his ATD 2010 team, there are some players there that could have really helped others in their quest for a championship, certainly some of the depth players at least. Those ATDs would have went completely different.

Yes, but VanI only had one team in ATD#10. It's not surprising that he drafted some useful players; he has always been a good GM. It is apparently in ATD#11 that he started with the happy socks.

Quote:

It will survive - just expect more people to take the way of Mr Bugg, and unless every post regarding this matter get deleted, other new people will be able to see what happened themselves, and decide for themselves whether or not they want to participate in the draft. Some will decide not to. I think it'll be challenging to get to 32 teams the next couple of drafts.

Then so be it. If we go back to twenty teams, we won't have to discuss Pierre Turgeon anymore.

heh, that was a "fun" read. I think that the simple fact that everyone now knows what VanI did is punishment itself. His integrity will be questionable from now on anyway. Ban would not change anything IMHO, but to be honest, I think that what he did makes him a first grade d-bag.

I think a lot of my opinion has to do with that I don't think anyone should be given preferential treatment just because of what they may have done in the past to advance the project. Everyone should be treated the same way and abide by the same rules. I can see why some people might want to keep VI around because of what he has done in the past.. but life goes on. Nobody is irreplaceable. I probably have a much stronger and harsher idea of right and wrong than most people, though.

I should probably come clean now that I am a sock of nik jr. My cover is that I use capital letters at the beginning of sentences. GBC was one of my socks, as well, my cover in that case being general bat**** craziness. Ah...t'was good while it lasted.

THAT would be punishment! Gawd how I live for MLD research! A one-year suspension, making me able to return no sooner than MLD 2012. That is fair, isn't it?

i don't care if you are banned or not, but it think you should realize the magnitude of your obesession. Take a break for your own sake, get you life straight. again you don't need to "research for MLD", you can write a book, it requires much more research than MLD, aren't you a english teacher, i mean you should be able to write.

i don't care if you are banned or not, but it think you should realize the magnitude of your obesession. Take a break for your own sake, get you life straight. again you don't need to "research for MLD", you can write a book, it requires much more research than MLD, aren't you a english teacher, i mean you should be able to write.

That would actually be a pretty awesome project. Put that passion for MLD research into publishing some awesome books on lesser knowns.