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Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Im pretty sure Gin would have been a captain much earlier had he not chose to serve strictly under Aizen and study him. The guy, was never in a serious fight and even when he fought Ichigo, he seemed to not be caring at all. Saying that the reason Gin faired well against Ichigo was because Aizen broke Ichigos will to fight is ridiculous, i could attribute Ichigo fairing well against Gin due to Gin not being serious in that fight...

Gin even lied to Ichigo about his Bankai and could have easily killed Ichigo had he felt like it.

Hitsugaya on the other hand IMO still is not on a high powerscale. If compared to Gin, i doubt he would IMO stand much of a chance. Yes, they are both prodigies, but graduating in the Academy early or becoming a captain early does not really mean that you have tremendous potential. That potential is shown by action and not statistics. We have seen what Gin can do from a very young age, to the point where even Aizen was "cautious" about him and approved of him as his only true subordinate.

To Aizen, Hitsugaya was not even significant to think about, even with his supposedly "tremendous" growth potential. And another thing, attributing Hitsugayas strength to him being a captain is IMO ridiculous. Im sure at the same age, Gin or Byakuya could have taken on Hitsugaya.

Re: Discussion on the shortcomings of Bleach's plot and pace

Originally Posted by SaitoSpike

i knew someone would say something about that part to which i need to point out that i said this

"prodigy isnt only about power"

meaning in this case whereas a very intelligent prodigy in Gin decided he didnt know enough about Aizen to jus try to take him down face to face, on the other hand both times that a very intelligent prodigy in Toshiro encountered Aizen he simply charged, yes Gin knew about the weakness but its his tactic in finding out that weakness that got him there and even then he still waited for the absolute best possible chance, Toshiro charged knowing full well he was under KS already (yes anger is fuel and i understand that most of the captains were seeing red at that point) however neverltheless Gin demonstrates what is to be expected from a 'Prodigy' with his wait and see approach/tactic whereas the other prodigy does not....despite having 2 tries....

so my comparison does not fail there either....of course in the end that comparison might jus come down to experience more than one person being smarter than the other its jus that he started his plans like 100 years ago, so even the fact of him having the advantage of being close to Aizen is an opportunity he himself created, which goes right back to being a young prodigy

This pretty much sums it up. Gin wasn't even a Shinigami when he first made up his mind on killing Aizen. You don't necessarily need to look at the outcomes of the battles, but just look at how they handled the situations. Rangiku got hurt, and Gin, just a kid at that moment, waited 100+ years to go for revenge. Hinamori got hurt, and Hitsugaya, a captain for years from that point, dashed out. And remember, the reason, Kyouraku, Soifon and a Vaizard got hurt in the process was because they had no choice but to follow Hitsugaya's all-in attack to cover for him, yet it didn't work.

Aizen was miles ahead of many characters in terms of intelligence, maybe only behind likes of Urahara and Mayuri, who are pure scientists to be noted. He was also powerful enough to go on with ambitions all alone. Yet, he took two captains alongside him. Aside from weakening the hand of SS, what purpose did he have when he made such a move? You may argue that they were just soldiers for him, but in terms of fighting, Gin did next to nothing. He never looked serious. Heck, he could have easily killed Ichigo if he was trying to do so, just like he could have done the same to Hitsugaya before their escape from SS, but that's not the point, as we're comparing their prodigy status, not overall power. I believe the reason Aizen kept Gin on his side was not only his potential power, but also the dangerous ever-smiling, cold-blooded killer attitude of his. Despite his precautious approach, Aizen got defeated. Not because he was out-powered, but because he was out-smarted which should be a very positive note for Gin's status as a prodigy, as he planned and decided to hold back his true power from Aizen light decades ago.
And in my book, this is a lot more valuable than out-powering Aizen. Hitsugaya has no attributes that can be referenced as calmness, despite having a cold personality himself, so, for me, he is destined to be ranked second to Gin.

Let's come to Byakuya..
Well, he's tough to judge. Not for his power, but his nobleness makes it very, very difficult to observe his childhood potential. But I don't believe all that power was just the product of training. I tend to think that he had immense potential to begin with, and refined that potential to hone his overall skills. Otherwise, his mastery in using his Bankai becomes inexplicable. And he was probably considered as a prodigy always, as heir to the head of noble Kuchiki clan. But we can't comprehend how things would turn out if he lived the life of Gin, wandering in the streets, or Hitsugaya, who faced poverty as a child, I guess. That 'brat' Byakuya boy concept wouldn't be there, for sure. But would he still be this good without getting trained and being prepared for a position in his clan? Would he be this good on his own?
I can't just say yes or no this question. It'd need an entirely different plot to enlighten such a character, but such a plot isn't existing, anyway. If I had to make an assumption, he'd fall in the ranks between Gin and Hitsugaya, I suppose.

Re: Discussion on the shortcomings of Bleach's plot and pace

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

End result: Gin - Byakuya - Hitsugaya in that particular order.

Why o Why is Byakuya involved he was no child prodigy, he defiantly is no genius and his natural abilities are kido and shinpo.... If there is some genius' then someone please point them out i have yet to see them.... I'm not dissing the chap he's actually a pretty cool character its just i fail to see any greatness in him other then him being a noble.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

The simple reality is that most of these arguments used to declare Hitsugaya as an inferior prodigy, at least in comparison to Gin and/or Byakuya, aren't particularly useful for the discussion at hand. The use of current, or recent, power levels doesn't give us much to determine anything. It's not enough to say that Hitsugaya wasn't as powerful as Gin was during the battle against Aizen. To suggest that Gin and Byakuya are more prodigious talents, one has to put forth some evidence that they had more skills than Hitsugaya at comparable ages. And personality traits aren't even remotely relevant in this determination.

Some of these comments are heavily based on purely personal preferences. For example, @Hakuteiken uses an entire paragraph to point out that Byakuya had access to resources few others could hope to obtain that would aid in his progression as a Shinigami, and comes to the conclusion that it is impossible to determine to what extent Byakuya's own natural potential contributed to his success. Then, in the very next sentence, Byakuya is declared as a superior, in terms of relative natural talent, to Hitsugaya, despite the host of references to Hitsugaya's prodigious talents. You've no idea whether Byakuya was a prodigy or not, but he was a better prodigy than the known prodigy Hitsugaya. How does that follow any sort of logic?

We know that both Gin and Byakuya had at least 110 years of experience at the beginning of the manga. Hitsugaya has, based on the events of the manga, less than half that much experience and years to train:

Hitsugaya decided to become a Shinigami after Hinamori had already been in the academy for 5 years. Hinamori entered the academy at the same time as Rukia. Rukia was found by Byakuya approximately 6 years after he was wed, which occurred 55 years prior to the manga. If one puts forth that Rukia was found within her first year at the academy, that would indicate that Hitsugaya decided to become a Shinigami no more than 45 years prior to the manga.

One can argue that because Gin likely hid his powers he was more talented than many gave him credit for, and yet still he was considered a prodigy. It is difficult, however, to extend that to simply say that he was superior to Hitsugaya. I tend to lean toward Hitsugaya because of the constant references to his prodigious talent throughout the manga. But, the idea that Gin was a more purely talented youth than Hitsugaya is plausible. However, it has never been suggested that Byakuya hid his abilities from SS. Nothing has ever been said to suggest that he was some prodigious talent. He trained from early childhood, had access to unrivaled resources, and took significantly longer to attain the rank of Captain than Hitsugaya. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that Byakuya was a prodigy, much less that he was more naturally talented than Hitsugaya.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by Impossibility

The simple reality is that most of these arguments used to declare Hitsugaya as an inferior prodigy, at least in comparison to Gin and/or Byakuya, aren't particularly useful for the discussion at hand. The use of current, or recent, power levels doesn't give us much to determine anything. It's not enough to say that Hitsugaya wasn't as powerful as Gin was during the battle against Aizen. To suggest that Gin and Byakuya are more prodigious talents, one has to put forth some evidence that they had more skills than Hitsugaya at comparable ages. And personality traits aren't even remotely relevant in this determination.

To me, in all honesty the comparison between FKT Gin and FKT Hitsugaya is all down to common sense.

Gin, even in SS, practically toyed with Hitsugaya and could have easily killed him had he wanted to. Gin, who IMO could have advanced to captaincy extremely early had a valid backstory as to why it took him a long time. He plotted to be Aizens subordinate and read him carefully.

His talents were most likely hidden by Aizen to avoid SS from trying to turn him into theyre asset. Gins showings to that end IMO were controlled by Aizen.

I very much doubt that Gin at the age of Hitsugaya would have had trouble fighting against current Hitsu.

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One can argue that because Gin likely hid his powers he was more talented than many gave him credit for, and yet still he was considered a prodigy. It is difficult, however, to extend that to simply say that he was superior to Hitsugaya. I tend to lean toward Hitsugaya because of the constant references to his prodigious talent throughout the manga. But, the idea that Gin was a more purely talented youth than Hitsugaya is plausible. However, it has never been suggested that Byakuya hid his abilities from SS. Nothing has ever been said to suggest that he was some prodigious talent. He trained from early childhood, had access to unrivaled resources, and took significantly longer to attain the rank of Captain than Hitsugaya. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that Byakuya was a prodigy, much less that he was more naturally talented than Hitsugaya.

No one would praise Gin since he is... a criminal. Has anyone, even the captains ever praized Aizen for being super strong? Did they, even back then even notice anything he did, even prior to the Hogyouku?

We do not know the conditions as to which Byakuya attained captaincy. For all we know he could have been waiting for the previous captain to pass (who i assume was the old man training him) inorder to be his successor.

Being a prodigy is not always an answer, look at Kenpachi, he is no prodigy nor genius yet he would muffle both Byakuya and Hitsugaya.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by Impossibility

Some of these comments are heavily based on purely personal preferences. For example, @Hakuteiken uses an entire paragraph to point out that Byakuya had access to resources few others could hope to obtain that would aid in his progression as a Shinigami, and comes to the conclusion that it is impossible to determine to what extent Byakuya's own natural potential contributed to his success. Then, in the very next sentence, Byakuya is declared as a superior, in terms of relative natural talent, to Hitsugaya, despite the host of references to Hitsugaya's prodigious talents. You've no idea whether Byakuya was a prodigy or not, but he was a better prodigy than the known prodigy Hitsugaya. How does that follow any sort of logic?

Well, of course, it doesn't follow any sort of logic. That's why I just made an assumption which is based on pretty much nothing. I could pretty much assume that Hitsugaya has more prodigious talent than Byakuya now in this post, and it wouldn't have a base point, either. Heck, even for Gin, we are struggling to draw a comparison, so, the decades between characters or the differences of the lives they lived matters a lot. That's the reason my initial proposal was to completely leave Byakuya out. Make him ranked first. Make him ranked last. We shall never be able to provide something to back that argument with their current information on characters.
That ranking was just a forced assumption, probably got altered in a wrong way by judging with their current power levels. So, you're right and I shall better take him out.

Gin - Hitsugaya is my edited ranking now, with Byakuya left out of discussion.
But I wonder about the others, aside from these three. It would be great if we knew something about their power levels back in their youth. Senior captains, for instance.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by RandomShikafan

Where was this stated?

(He is the most gifted prodigy the Soul Society has had since Gin Ichimaru)

not that i can say i can give my full trust to wiki things, but it is indeed stated under powers and abilities under Toshiro in the BLEACH wikia not the regular one, i simply assume this is something that was taken from something like the Bleach book of souls...however im not willing to go verify

seeing as a bit further down it even gives a quote about Hitsu from Gin's own mouth (sounding rather sarcastic lol) its likely this is a legitimate quote in which case its obvious it would have been stated as "Toshiro is a prodigy who even surpassed the accomplishments of the previous prodigy Gin Ichimaru"....because thats exactly how they put it when they compared Gin to the prodigy before him (Kaien Shiba)

Originally Posted by RandomShikafan

Looking at the scene where he reveals he's gonna become a soulreaper, Gin seemed to only quall his temper by murdering some other poor random smuck in Aizen's place for the time being.

sure but from what we've seen from Hitsugaya in the same exact scenario of having a loved one hurt right in front of your eyes he would have charged (even as a Captain who's supposed to have a much cooler head he Charges)...Gin was cunning/disciplined enough even at that age to recognize he probably shouldnt just charge at the boss (Aizen) instead yes he did take it out on those poor shmucks who helped, simply because he knew he could take em out anyways

Originally Posted by RandomShikafan

Yeah these are unfinished plotpoints. Kubo not managing to find a place for Orhime and Chad does not equate to Kubo not being able to put in that 100 year timeskip he always wanted to do to show what Toushiro got in store for him. It was never gonna be that long.

sure but my point was only that these stories which once seemed like they'll play an important role suddenly seem like there's no room for em in other words even if they were talked about often before it doesnt mean we'll see it jus like Hitsu's potential, Kubo also said he wanted to write Kenpachi's becoming a captain but admitted he doesnt see it fitting with this last arc....in terms of Hitsu's potential one can argue that it still may be important to the plot since they DO desperately need power, however the same can be said about Orihime's ability since ppl are dying left and right will either fulfill their foreshawdowed potential.....who knows but i definetly cant give that a guarantee and with Hitsu its alot more difficult to write in (without something like a Dangai training) since a sort of limitation has been placed by kubo himself in terms of Shinigami growth wereas with Orihime no such thing exists yet.....

sure but essentially from what we've heard about Hitsu, Yama-ji or near it IS his potential...at least imo it seems that way anyways, but my bad tho i guess if ur simply saying he'll outdo Shunsui's prediction...which is that he'll only have surpassed him 100 years from now then yeah ok, however my whole thing is as i said even if he does get stronger faster it seems unrealistic to put him at Shunsui's level in 2 years...going from 100 years to now is pretty much a 2 year span which is a HUGE leap, this im sure you agree....but we do agree he'll show up stronger....but based on how Byakuya did im not sure it'll be enough, Toshiro relies heavily on his Bankai....so the Kenpachi comparison doesnt work at all either....

Originally Posted by RandomShikafan

Like Kenpachi said, the fight against Yammy was incredible boring. He didn't say that about the even far weaker and less experienced Shikai Ichigo he faced. Yammy has 0 skill.

boring or not consider how fast Kenpachi finishes his fights when they dont interest him, he doesnt wait to toy around, the fact that even with Byakuya also fighting he was unable to do so, has to count for something, the whole thing there was that if a almost depleted Ichigo can almost take down Yami and it takes Kenpachi AND Byakuya with alot of effort (as seen by their ripped clothes when they come back), and then Gin can hold his own against a fully healed Ichigo (Aizen breaking him down did indeed play a factor but it doesnt lessen Ichigo's Bankai power or mask) in that scenario im only trying to prove that its highly unlikely that Gin is at the same level as the Byakuya whos having to tag team vs Yami

Originally Posted by RandomShikafan

I don't believe that's what he said. He said he was aware and amused of Gin's decision to target him and try to stay close to him. He was wrong not be concerned. In the end Gin was the only one that made him feel fear, not Yama, not Unohana, not Urahara.

ur right he was amused to see what Gin would do, but the thing about that is Aizen was only amused by ppl he couldnt read, he wouldnt waste any time with you if you arent in his opinion a threat (Urahara) or a good specimen (Ichigo), im saying it would seem from the begining he had a hard time reading Gin, another prodigy (Toshiro) came in the G13 and was there for what 100 years? no particular interest from Aizen, he did not feel threatened nor intrigued.....as i said not a strong point, but something of note nevertheless

-------------------------

ultimately we agree we will see him progress however i disagree that we see him progress to what Shunsui said "he will likely surpass even me in another 100 years or so" thats condencing 100 years in 2 years...i feel like Only Ichigo is capable of such a thing.....which is pretty much what he's been doing with each of his training but we know he's the main character and has an unfair amount of power basis' to go from so.....meh

One can argue that because Gin likely hid his powers he was more talented than many gave him credit for, and yet still he was considered a prodigy. It is difficult, however, to extend that to simply say that he was superior to Hitsugaya. I tend to lean toward Hitsugaya because of the constant references to his prodigious talent throughout the manga. But, the idea that Gin was a more purely talented youth than Hitsugaya is plausible.

ya see im not willing to say who's above who either which is something i have stuck to, the only real advantage Hitsu has if i look at it from what you said is that he has more face time, more time to be glorified, he's at the stage/age of being considered a prodigy when Bleach itself begins whereas the other 2 are already adults so naturally when it is talked about its past tense (or not at all in Byakuya's case)

my whole thing started when i was told it was ill founded for me to say that Gin may have perhaps been more of a prodigy then said others, when i say that i look at his history, Hitsugaya is in the middle of creating HIS own and based on his history so far i'd give the advantage to Gin...with Hitsugaya's only advantage in this case being that he became the youngest Captain ever...but when the other person in the argument doenst have as much detailed info (at the same age) then it makes it very hard to compare

it leaves it at a complete stalemate especially if Gin doesnt come back, because at that point you can bring in the argument about what would Gin have accomplished had his shinigami life not began with a 110 years of revenge lol

or who would be the better one 500 years from now were they both alive? the simple fact is that Hitsu is easily talked about because ppl actually KNOW about him and his abilities.....lets put it this way...if Even Aizen didnt fully know all about Gin.....then how can we expect the other captains to....so on the subject of him being more talked about as a prodigy....one is accessible the other is not....however when the one who isnt accessible does demonstrate what he can do....well etc...we all saw what he could do

lol im right back to not being able to determine whos on top but if i had to choose i would go with both Gin and Toshiro being more talented than Byakuya....but that doesnt mean i'd chose them in a fight 1vs1 out of all 3 Byakuya has demonstrated the most resiliency and considering how Ichigo has proven that can often be the difference...well....back at square 1

Being a prodigy is not always an answer, look at Kenpachi, he is no prodigy nor genius yet he would muffle both Byakuya and Hitsugaya.

i couldnt help but reply to this....i believe you're basing that fact on KEnpachi having 3 quincy bodies on his shoulder right after Byakuya just lost to one....but i believe that Kubo has been leading us to understand that Byakuya and Kenpachi are rivals amongst the captains and i dont think a fight between the 2 would be one sided in Kenpachi's favour (or Byakuya's), i think Kubo has made quite a few subtle hints at this, the simple fact is that we know there are a certain number of Vandereich that are captain class or higher and we also know that there are ALOT more that have entered SS that are NOT and since we dont know what level those 3 he has on shoulder presents.....going off that to say Kenpachi is far stronger than Byakuya i'd have to disagree with....further more yes Byakua would get destroyed if he tried to fight Kenpachi without his Bankai this has to be put into consideration and who knows if the same couldnt have been said with As Nodt

so im not so sure Kenpachi as much as he is badass would muffle Byakuya and despite the fact that my personal opinion is that he'd kick Toshiro's ass, it is said that Toshiro has completed his Bankai as well so this wouldnt be the same Toshiro we last saw....too early to tell

Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 30, 2012 at 04:46 PM.

Only one thing stirs my emotion. Aku. Soku. Zan. For the sake of my justice alone!

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by SaitoSpike

I couldnt help but reply to this....i believe you're basing that fact on KEnpachi having 3 quincy bodies on his shoulder right after Byakuya just lost to one

No, not at all. I have always believed Kenpachi to be a low High tier captain. Not in the same league as Kyouraku and Ukitake or Unohana, but i always believed if he attained Bankai he could atleast contend with them.

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....but i believe that Kubo has been leading us to understand that Byakuya and Kenpachi are rivals amongst the captains and i dont think a fight between the 2 would be one sided in Kenpachi's favour (or Byakuya's)

Unless Aizen was wrong, Kenpachis Reiatsu should be strong enough to atleast resist most of Byakuyas attacks. Since i believe Kenpachi makes Byakuya look like a child in terms of Reiatsu. Thats my view anyway. No direct comparison.

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i think Kubo has made quite a few subtle hints at this, the simple fact is that we know there are a certain number of Vandereich that are captain class or higher and we also know that there are ALOT more that have entered

I dont see the hints, Ichigo was told that there was 16 invaders who were captain class if i remember correctly.

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going off that to say Kenpachi is far stronger than Byakuya i'd have to disagree with....further more yes Byakua would get destroyed if he tried to fight Kenpachi without his Bankai this has to be put into consideration and who knows if the same couldnt have been said with As Nodt

Your assuming thats what im going with which is wrong. I see Kenpachi releasing his eye patch as a pseudo bankai. So if they fought at full power, i believe Ken would trash Byakuya. Byakuya IMO cannot handle an extremely close range fighter.

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so im not so sure Kenpachi as much as he is badass would muffle Byakuya and despite the fact that my personal opinion is that he'd kick Toshiro's ass, it is said that Toshiro has completed his Bankai as well so this wouldnt be the same Toshiro we last saw....too early to tell

For all we know Ken now can properly release his Shikai. If he was THAT strong without fully knowing his zanpaktou, which was said to boost your powers significantly, then if he does now then these two are outmatched.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Well we all know Ichigo is above Toushiro and Gin in Potential and Development Rate, if GIn and Toushiro are Both Prodigies that makes ichigo the Ultimate Prodigy, Gaining Shinigami powers then 1month later gaining Shikai then another week gaining Bankai and then Gaining Hollow Powers and then Mastering Bankai all in a span of 1year. Ichigo Surpassed Both Gin and Toushiro in less than 1year when it took them 50+ years.

Gin is Far Superior than Toushiro even if Toushiro is Younger Gin Graduated in 1year. Is about how fast one graduate not how old one is when he enters and graduates. Gin is the only Prodigy out of the 3 that actually acts like a genius. He is the only one besides urahara that Knew what aizen was up to since the beggining. and the only one that came up with a plan to kill him. It would have workd if aizen never turned Butterfly

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Wow, at which point Kenpachi's name was thrown into the hat, I missed it!
A Byakuya vs Kenpachi battle? Well, it depends. If it's just for show off, that makes Kenpachi the favorite. If there is something at stake, I'd take Byakuya, because we are yet to see Kenpachi doing so. Of course, every battle is just a show off for him, anyway.
I don't know, this is getting a little bit confusing. They had minor conflicts here and there, but nothing if you look at whether they were serious or not. At least, Byakuya never intended to get into a match-to-death with Kenpachi.
It's because he thought he'd end up getting trashed? Don't think so. From the get go, Byakuya and Kenpachi were white and black in this world, so, it'd be inexplicable if one dominated the other.
And if even Kenpachi trained in the past 17 months, same could possibly be the case for Byakuya, and he never had a chance to show anything above his known level when his Bankai was stolen immediately.

Originally Posted by daman246

Well we all know Ichigo is above Toushiro and Gin in Potential and Development Rate, if GIn and Toushiro are Both Prodigies that makes ichigo the Ultimate Prodigy, Gaining Shinigami powers then 1month later gaining Shikai then another week gaining Bankai and then Gaining Hollow Powers and then Mastering Bankai all in a span of 1year. Ichigo Surpassed Both Gin and Toushiro in less than 1year when it took them 50+ years.

That's all because he's the main character. Don't count his FGT training and he has probably trained for a couple of months in the entire series and surpassed the captains that got trained for years.
And add the fact that we still don't know what Ichigo is. If Aizen knew about him throughout all these years, then he is far from being a Shinigami's average son for you, let him be a human.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

That's all because he's the main character. Don't count his FGT training and he has probably trained for a couple of months in the entire series and surpassed the captains that got trained for years.

Being the main character does not automatically attribute to being the strongest or having the greatest potential. Its just a coincidence IMO (story wise) that he was born of a shinigami and a ______________.

And about your Kenpachi and Byakuya post, Kenpachi was strong even during the FKT. He if he wanted (though out of characyer) taken Nnoitora out by going all out from the get go. The same cannot be said about Byakuya.

Im not saying Kenpachi is to Byakuya what the heavens are to the earth, but im just saying, a rival does not really equate nor mean equality.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by daman246

Well we all know Ichigo is above Toushiro and Gin in Potential and Development Rate, if GIn and Toushiro are Both Prodigies that makes ichigo the Ultimate Prodigy, Gaining Shinigami powers then 1month later gaining Shikai then another week gaining Bankai and then Gaining Hollow Powers and then Mastering Bankai all in a span of 1year. Ichigo Surpassed Both Gin and Toushiro in less than 1year when it took them 50+ years.

Ichigo is only the ultimate prodigy if you consider the word prodigy only pertains to power.....you think Ichigo Kurosaki could have come up with that plan Gin did for 100 years....he's got less patience than Toshiro, do we even know if u can use kido yet?...its not all about power all he does is Charge lol im not discrediting Ichigo's power but the only power he needs is being the main character in a shonen....in which case nothing is impossible

Being the main character does not automatically attribute to being the strongest or having the greatest potential.

i completely disagree and you can look at 90% of Shonen manga out there its a fact if you're the main character all things fall nicely in your hands i dont think i need to give you examples but im sure everyone can name 10...Goku, Naruto, Luffy, Yusuke Hirameshi

of course if ur the main character ur 'special' thats an undeniable fact imo, the key after that from the mangaka's side is making it believable then u bring in things like, Ichigo's dad already being a captain class shinigami, or naruto's dad aactually being the 4th.....etc...

Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 30, 2012 at 05:48 PM.

Only one thing stirs my emotion. Aku. Soku. Zan. For the sake of my justice alone!

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by jaymizzo

To me, in all honesty the comparison between FKT Gin and FKT Hitsugaya is all down to common sense.

Gin, even in SS, practically toyed with Hitsugaya and could have easily killed him had he wanted to. Gin, who IMO could have advanced to captaincy extremely early had a valid backstory as to why it took him a long time. He plotted to be Aizens subordinate and read him carefully.

His talents were most likely hidden by Aizen to avoid SS from trying to turn him into theyre asset. Gins showings to that end IMO were controlled by Aizen.

I very much doubt that Gin at the age of Hitsugaya would have had trouble fighting against current Hitsu.

You haven't said anything new. And as I've already said, comparing Hitsugaya's and Gin's talents through their battles isn't particularly useful in determining the extent of their natural prodigious ability. As I already pointed out, Gin had at least 65 years more training and experience on Hitsugaya at the time of the battle, Gin had more than twice the amount of time as a Shinigami as Hitsugaya. Even if Gin was vastly superior at the time, that isn't anywhere near close enough to argue that Gin being superior, in terms of this debate, is 'common sense'. You would have to compare Hitsugaya's ability at least 65 years from now to Gin's level, or compare Gin's ability at Hitsugaya's current age. The reality is there is very little about Gin's ability other than that he was able to defeat a 3rd seat, and was able to graduate from the Academy in just a year. None of those things would clearly put him over Hitsugaya. It could be argued that Gin was superior, but it is by no means a common sense determination. Determining Gin's skills at an age comparable to Hitsugaya's is something that requires lots of speculation, and a few educated guesses. Some are going to end up putting Hitsugaya above, some are going to favour Gin. Pretending as though this is clear cut is just wishful thinking.

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No one would praise Gin since he is... a criminal. Has anyone, even the captains ever praized Aizen for being super strong? Did they, even back then even notice anything he did, even prior to the Hogyouku?

We do not know the conditions as to which Byakuya attained captaincy. For all we know he could have been waiting for the previous captain to pass (who i assume was the old man training him) inorder to be his successor.

Being a prodigy is not always an answer, look at Kenpachi, he is no prodigy nor genius yet he would muffle both Byakuya and Hitsugaya

If you read my comment, you'd see that my statement about Gin hiding his abilties from SS was something that I considered legitimate as an argument for Gin's superiority, even if it falls short of the mark. Byakuya could've waited for an open seat. But the simple reality is that the time to captaincy is the only thing that we can reasonably compare them on. There is absolutely nothing that suggests that Byakuya was a prodigy, everything that has been put forth by the manga would suggest that Hitsugaya's natural ability far exceeds that of Byakuya.

And I don't understand the point of your final sentence. How did Kenpachi make his way into this discussion?

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by jaymizzo

No, not at all. I have always believed Kenpachi to be a low High tier captain. Not in the same league as Kyouraku and Ukitake or Unohana, but i always believed if he attained Bankai he could atleast contend with them.

Unless Aizen was wrong, Kenpachis Reiatsu should be strong enough to atleast resist most of Byakuyas attacks. Since i believe Kenpachi makes Byakuya look like a child in terms of Reiatsu. Thats my view anyway. No direct comparison.

I dont see the hints, Ichigo was told that there was 16 invaders who were captain class if i remember correctly.

Your assuming thats what im going with which is wrong. I see Kenpachi releasing his eye patch as a pseudo bankai. So if they fought at full power, i believe Ken would trash Byakuya. Byakuya IMO cannot handle an extremely close range fighter.

For all we know Ken now can properly release his Shikai. If he was THAT strong without fully knowing his zanpaktou, which was said to boost your powers significantly, then if he does now then these two are outmatched.

Byakuya has already handled a close range fighter in Ichigo and an even closer range in Tsukishima, the hints i was talking about between he and Kenpachi being rivals started WAY back when Gin separated the 2 from fighting....all the way down to their inner fighting while fighting Yami...the fact that neither backs down is telling....but if u believe he would thrash Byakuya thats fair and your opinion, i'd like to believe so but i dont see it ppl who are pinned as rivals...it doesnt make sense for one to be far above the other...but if u havent seen the hints about their rivalry im not gonna bother to go look for it its all over the manga

if u say for all we know Ken can release his Shikai then i say for all we know those 3 quincy's werent at As Nodt's level so we're stuck....and if he's the letter 'F' and we consider that it could go from A and down then he'd be the 6th strongest...are you gonna tell me those 3 guys on kenpachi's shoulder are members of A-through E....i'm skeptical to say the least.....Aizen was talking about Kenpachi's reiatsu and not much else other than that...it takes alot more than that in a fight between Captains i think Kenpachi knows this as well....even Aizen who was immortal got sealed by a series of Kido...something Kenpachi cant use (far as we've seen).....jus pointing some things out that you may not be considering

plus its not really fair right Kenpachi has full access to his power at all times...we didnt even see Byakuya's growth in bankai since it was sealed.....so currently its one sided to say he's stronger than Byakuya....in the past i dont see a reason to believe one would have had a clear edge over the other,

are u also forgetting that Ichigo (the weaker version was able to fight on par with Kenpachi...tho not a loss still needed to be carried off) despite all that Byakuya survived a Bankai Ichigo and even a mask....and was still even able to block Rukia from getting speared...so in the past i dunno how you could say he was so far above...in the present its up for debate cuz neither has shown their full power thus far

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as for Kenpachi ma dude! to be honnest you should probably expect to never see his Bankai (maybe even Shikai).....some ppl are better off being powerful in their own way and i dont have a problem with him not being another regular Captain...everything about Kenpachi is different this is something that attracts fans to him, he's a traditional ronin Samurai in all aspects....Kubo probably figured out long ago that he's better off leaving him the way he is, doesnt it make it more interesting in the end when he's trapped in a corner and for once you as a fan arent just expecting the Bankai escape route!

might jus be me, but i find it makes him even that much more of an interesting character

Last edited by SaitoSpike; July 30, 2012 at 06:14 PM.

Only one thing stirs my emotion. Aku. Soku. Zan. For the sake of my justice alone!

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Ichigo is a whooole different being then those three, he's a Human/Shinigami/Hollow. Moreover even discounting that he didn't have the limits of a soul/shinigami that Aizen and Rukia stated, Byakuya, Toushiro and Gin didn't have access to Ichigo three day training method that Urahara set him up with. Considering it otherwise takes about a hundred years, they did well for themselves. Admittedly, FTG's an ability of the likes they would never achieve but other then that.