1991 Caprice slower than 1985. Why ?

I test drove a 91 Caprice with a 305 engine and TBI. I was "dismayed" to
find it had poor acceleration compared to my 85 Caprice with a 305, and a carb.

Does TBI ruin the acceleration ? Is there some reason a 91 would be slower
than an 85 with the same engine size, or was this particular 91 just messed up?
The owner said it only had 129,000 miles on it.
Thanks,
L

TBI vehicals usually have better off the line accceleration, then
quadajet carberated vehicals. Which usually bog the first 15 to 30 feet,
where TBI vehicals tend to be more prone to wheel spin.
A few factors may contribute to accleration differances. Tune of engine,
dirty or clogging injectors, a problem in the emissions control, retarded
timing. As well as final drive ratio.
A car with 2.73 rear gears vs. a car with 4.11 gears will acclerate to
60 MPH slower, above 60 MPH the 2.73's will accelerate better.
If the car was a city, police or state vehical it might have been
ordered with a highway package geared more towards highway speed fuel
econimy. Some of those Caprice's the police used were 4.3 V8's, others were
5.0 V8's, and the top dogs got the 5.7 V8 cars. Those are the ones that the
highway patroll men really liked for speed trap duty. Where as the smalled
engined cars they perfered to use for rolling patrolls.
Charles

Thanks for the info. The guy who owned the car claimed it was a "police
package" and had the 350 engine. But it only had single exhaust. He said he
had a mechanic keep it in good tune also. But it was so slow, I think it must
have been a 4.3 liter.
Thanks,
L
TBI vehicals usually have better off the line accceleration, then

he
must
4.3 V8 cars and 5.0 cars have police packages. The easy way to tell
which engine the car orginally had is to look at the emissions decal under
the hood. Some people will assume because the car has heavy service/police
service package, that the car has a 350.
My business partner has a 94 former police car with a 4.3 V8. the car
accelerates alright, and drives nice.
Charles

Charles,
Thanks again. I test drove a 77 Impala today with ( he said) a 350
engine. Pretty slow. Not much faster than the new supposed "350" I drove a few
days ago. I musty have gotten lucky with my 85 Caprice 305, which is faster
than both of these cars. My Caprice has a nasty trans leak, and I don't want
to spend the $300 the mech wants to replace the pump seal.
L

A claim slow versus fast are under what controlled conditions?
This of course is at a drag strip, constraints and conditions such as;
1) Both timed for quarter-mile performance on a private paved surface not
subject to speeding,
drag racing on public thoroughfare, and/or reckless operation moving
violations.
2) Both cars are well tuned, tire pressure is adjusted for conditions, same
type of fuel, etc.
Unless that statement meets at least some of the above mentioned criteria,
that assertion is groundless.
It is easily obvious why a 85 Caprice needs a front pump seal, sounds like
the car has been subjected to hot rodding.
Why would someone pay $300 to replace a front pump seal without spending a
few more bucks for a overhaul?
Sounds like the garage that quoted $300.00 may have had previous front pump
seal jobs they may have underpriced.
Instead of spending $300., either shop around or remove the tranny yourself
from the car and replace the front pump
seal and reinstall the tranny.
snip

People always like to bliame things on "Hot Rodding" Which in the case
of the front pump seal is nothing more then normial wear. Most people that
blaime parts failure on "hot rodding" are just talking out their ass.
When I bought my 84 C-10, I started driving it more miles per week then
it saw per month with it's fromer owner. After a few months the front pump
seal just started pouring transmission fluid, which was leaving the
inspection shield and burning on the exhaust 'Y' pipe. If I had not been at
home when it caught fire, I might have not gotten it out in time.
When I pulled the seal it was easy to see it was dry rotted. Most likely
from only seeing maybe 1000 miles per 3 months, if that. For a period of 7
years.
On cars & trucks that are over 15 years old having to replace seals is
normial.
Charles

Read your original post as if you are someone else. See what conclusions
you may derive.
Your original post left an impression that you have front pump seal leakage
as a common occurrence on every vehicle you own.
But yet you stopped short of linking front pump seal leakage to acceleration
of a 77 Chevy Caprice 350 compared with a 85
Chevy Caprice 305 in the same post.
What conclusions do you expect of any reader?
snip

leakage
acceleration
I have only had 3 cars that I have owned that needed front pump seals,
and no other transmission service. All older high mileage stuff.
Since I got my first car, I have owned over 70 street vehicals. And
well over 300 parts vehicals, as well as 25 race vehicals.
I Deal in Rare car parts, and do mechanical work for a living. So I see
more problems with cars then the average owner.
Charles
Bleh try finding an engine for my 1995 Mack Medium Duty cab over built by
renault.

Charles,
I've had this trans leak for 4 years. It slowly gets worse. A mechanic told
me he "thought" it was the pump seal. A trans shop said it was "every seal on
the trans" and wanted $500 to $900 to just replace the seals. It's dripping
off the front of the pan. Replaced the pan gasket, didn't help. How much should
I pay to replace the pump seal ? Is that probably the source of the leak ? Can
I just spread some silicon around the seal to at least slow down the leak ?
Going thru about a quart or 2 of trans fluid per mo. Cheap, but annoying to
have to put a pan under the car, or have the huge oil slick in my parking spot
on the road.
Thanks in advance for your input !!
L

Get a 2nd and/or 3rd opinion.
Why only be concerned with only a expensive front pump seal replacement,
when a major overhaul maybe in order.
I'll be the 1st to admit the R&R (removal & replacement) of a transmission
from a GM B body can be a mentally taxing job.
First, you have to know a transmission man willing to moonlight after hours.
Second, you may be able to save a lot of money one removed from car by
having him do a major overhaul in his garage at home.
Third and most important, you can save yourself money if you are physically
willing and have 1/2 and 3/8 metric sockets,
various other hand tools, and a transmission jack.
Fourth, weight these options versus a reputable transmission shop do the
work.
Fifth, line up a car for alternate transportation while yours is in the
shop.
Considering the consumption of transmission fluid, you need to get this
done.
snip

see
told
on
dripping
should
Can
?
to
spot
Let me break down costs for you. If I recall you have a non-overdrive
transmission.
Front Pump Seal
Parts:$18.50
Labor
A. Transmission Remove & Install 2.8 hours book time
B. Torque Converter Remove & Install 0.1 hours
C. Front Pump Seal Remove & Replace 0.2 hours.
Total 3.1 hours book time at the standard $60 per hour comes to $186.
I charge roughtly $100 labor for this, because most RWD GM cars it takes
a real world 45 minutes to drop the transmmsion. That's with removing the
driveshaft, and disconnecting the TV/or down shift cable. They go back in
usually in less then 20 minutes. 1 Minute to pull the torque converter
off, a minute and a half to two to spin it back on, making sure it has
engauded properly. The seal ususally takes me about 7 minutes to remove and
replace.
The tail shaft seal is about the same as the front pump seal, once the
drive shaft is out, it can be changed. The modulator seal takes .4 book
time, about 5 minutes real time. The TV/downshift cable seal requires the
pan to be off, once off it takes about 5 minutes to change.
To compleately reseal (exterier transmission seals) a Non O/D I charge
$150. Over Drives are $220. Added expense covers TV cable adjustment.
Higher cost if TV cable needs replaced.
I charge $45 to just do a pan gasket & filter change. Since It has to be on
the lift, and it takes a bit for the transmission to stop dripping fluid
when the pan is removed.
As much as it pains me to admit. Auto Repair, and parts business is full
of crooks. I know some personally. Some of them will just pad the bill
out, while others will outright charge you for parts and labor never done.
A few of the ones I know get quite mad at me, on a regular basis. For
the simple fact that on a by the Job basis, especially if I really want the
customer, I will drop my labor rates as low as $10 per hour. I have a list
of loyaled customers do to this, and not playing the ohh you need this and
that game. When I get a car in, and diagnose it, I not only will show the
customer what is wrong (and anyone they wish to bring with them), but I wil
save the old parts (when possible) and show them when they come to pick the
vehical up.
I know their are not many others out there like me, I really wish their
were, I hate hearing the horrior stories.
Charles

Charles,
Thanks for all the info ! I'm going to drive the car up on ramps and
check out the other visible seals you mentioned, hoping that one of them is
causing the recent increase in leaking. I could live with the amount of leak I
had until about a month ago, when it got worse. Hopefully a trans r and r is
not needed for changing those seals. By the way, the trans DOES have
overdrive.
Your prices are low. You would be my kind of mechanic, especially since
you sound trustworthy.
On the subject of mechanics, I go to a shop that is pretty cheap, but
sometimes I wonder if they break part B when they are fixing part A. Example
: I had them replace the front u-joint in my Caprice. When I checked it, I
noticed the trans mount was broken. Hmmm.. I didn't notice a broken trans mount
before. So I wonder if they broke it when they were replacing the u-joint, and
just decided not to tell me !! Don't know. I asked them why they didn't mention
a broken trans mount, and he said the mech doing the u-joint would not have
noticed a broken mount. BS, probably.
Later, I had them replace the trans mount. They did. Then at an exhaust
shop a few months later, the exhaust guy pointed out that the trans mount bolts
were loose, and the trans could be moved from side to side. Great ! I took it
back to my shop and they tightened them up for free, but they acted like it
wasn't their fault.
I'll still use these guys, only because they are cheap, $30 an hour, and
because the expensive places are probably just as bad, or worse, concerning
competence and honesty. Maybe its time to try another place, like the Shell
station nearby. But they are a "full price" shop. $60 to change spark plugs !
Geez....

The shop I take my car to whenever possible sounds like how you like to
run your business. It is a world of difference.
D&R Engine and Machince in Marion, IA. I would tell anyone to go there.
Awesome guys. It's nice to know there are others out there the same.
Sadly, you all are few and far between and the world needs mechanics
like you all more than ever.
Tony

The controlled conditions are :
flat road, me behind wheel, foot 3/4 down on accel pedal, and not feeling any
"neck-toss" at all. Also tried the 1/4 pedal, 1/2 pedal, full pedal. All
"s-l-o-w". No, I didn't watch my watch as I went from 0 to 60, which is
probably what I should have done.
And the 77 Impala had a dirty air filter, and old, rusty spark plugs. And
maybe the timing was slow. I don't want to take the time and money to find out
how much difference a tuneup would make.
But... those plugs were actually VISIBLE, not hidden under the exh man.
What a pleasure it would be to remove plugs without removing skin.
L

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