Richard - (RLN's name Wil ) To your so many denominations comment. I have three son's and though I am their father, I don't exactly have the same relationship with each of them I have with the others. None favored more than the other, nor loved more yet loved and favored and related to based upon not only them just being my sons but also who they are within their particular personalities. This is how I view denominational differences. Same God different people.

This brings up a thought I've been mulling over recently and it's is something along the lines of:

Can God be formulaic (flobt) and autonomous? Religion tends toward the formulaic side but God must be able to do as He pleases. This is would be one reason why I would tend to agree that God has not only allowed denominations to come into existence but has willed it.

Just my $.02 anywhose.

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Which thief~»«~are you?ChristKrew #185Anointing foreheads with the paintball for a while now.

....and that last line is exactly what I meant by Catholic vs Bible. So your basically saying the Catholic Church is equivalent to David Koreh's group? Please explain?

Please elaborate why Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidei is unbiblical.Sola Scriptura - Show me in Scripture where it says Sola Scriptura is the way to go? For those who don't know Sola Scriptura or Scripture Alone is the belief that the Bible is the sole and ONLY source for teaching for Christians. It is the ONLY rule of faith for these Christians. My first argument against this is no where in the Bible does the Bible say that. Let's start with that. Sola Fidei - since there is a lot on the plate as it is. We'll discuss Sola Scriptura first and then move on to Sola Fidei if that's all right with you.

and to briefly address the paragraph before: I never said that those authors said something against the Bible or extrabiblical. In fact, they have said some very profoundly, biblical things. I'm not saying you are doing wrong by studying their writings. I was saying that their teaching is still man's views on the Bible/God/Christianity. - Wait I am confused. First you say that the writings of Aquinas and Augustine are very profound and then you say that the writings of these Christian scholars is man's view? Could it possibly be that the Holy Spirit is the one that inspires these people to live out the Gospel and to reflect and write and expound on Scripture?

What I meant by studying the Bible on its own is just that (to study directly from the source: The Bible). It PREVENTS you from the getting/turning into a David Koresh (and follower). The people duped were so because of their poor knowledge of God's Word in regards to these very heretic teaching/people and the apostates that teach subtly do so carefully navigating the Bible to suit their intentions. - I think I've already indicated that I am studying the Bible. Who are my teachers: The Christians whose writings on the Bible have been passed down through centuries. Are you saying I should ignore all the exegesis that was written and taught by Christians throughout the centuries on Holy Scripture and just read the Bible only? No commentaries, no translation guides, no sources to guide me? It is that very reason that people get confused and misinterpret scripture because they are basing their understanding of Scripture on what they know.

We need to be like the Bereans. They tested EVERYTHING they heard from Paul (Acts 17). - I do. And continue to do so and have found nothing in Catholicism to contradict Holy Scripture. If I had I would've left Catholicism 15 years ago when I started "exploring" in college.

If you are a child of God (after having received Christ as savior) you have the Holy Spirit to help you align the spiritual to the spiritual and gain understanding. So whose to say that what one Christian interpets is wrong versus another? If this is true then why do we have thousands upon thousands of denominations with varying degrees of theology and biblical intpretations? By what authority can we say to another Christian "no your intepretation is invalid." Afterall, they've accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and they say they have the Holy Spirit guiding them. So their interpretation has to be also correct right? This line of thinking is what leads to people/groups like david koresh and it is also why sola scriptura is not only unbiblical but dangerous. There must be an authority on Scripture intepretation and the various denominations out there is proof that not everyone is guided by the Holy Spirit as we Christians like to believe

@markcheb - although I believe that God loves all of us. I find it hard to believe that He purposely wills for such disunity amongst Christians. I find it hard to believe that a loving and merciful God will leave us on our own to interpret Scripture by ourselves and then form our own church with theology based on what we believe/like about Scripture.

Richard - You can call me Mark, cheboygan is the town I lived in when I got my first e-mail account.

Anyways I'm ok with not being in agreement but I would like to point out:
The sometimes "disunity" that my boys demonstrate, rarely comes from my personal relationships with them and usually comes from their relationships with each other. Though it may require my instruction and discipline to "settle" the "disunity" it doesn't stem from me, it's inherent in them. Them being independent from each other doesn't create the problem.

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Which thief~»«~are you?ChristKrew #185Anointing foreheads with the paintball for a while now.

Mark I understand what your trying to say using your sons as an example. However being independent from each other is not the same as having completely different theologies. Although many different Christian churches share more in common than differences. The difference in theologies is enough for there to still not be a complete unity amongst Christians. I'd like to take it step further using your example. Sometimes regardless of the truth people in this case brothers can't see beyond their own prejudices towards each other. And although unlikely in the case of your sons let's assume that the brothers over the years have such a hard time agreeing with each other that by the time they're adults they rarely if ever speak to each other and essentially stay out of each others lives. As their father how would you feel? I wonder how God feels seeing his children splintered into so many denominations. A house divided cannot stand and satan has been over the centuries successful at dividing Christians. Today the division continues with Christians divided on issues such as contraception, abortion, and same sex marriage. These same issues were not issues a hundred years ago amongst the major Christian denominations. With many churches giving in to the pressures of secularism and relativism more and more Christian churches are becoming more liberal in theology and are no longer the same church or have splintered further amongst themselves into conservative vs liberal sides. Surely our Father can't be happy seeing such errors, inconsistencies, and divisions amongst his children.

I posted a thread about "Spiritual Experiences" but no one came near anything like this. I was hoping to have someone else describe something close to what I had experienced, but it never went that direction. I had to eventually delete it. This is what I mean when I say I am alone in my thoughts. If no one has experienced anything somewhat like this, there is no point in talking about it. Sometimes a Christian friend does, and we share intimate knowledge about these things to the point it feels like we are going to lift off the ground. But I can't do that with normal day to day Christians that don't care or know. They either change the subject, or think the other Christian is out of his/her mind.

I posted a thread about "Spiritual Experiences" but no one came near anything like this. I was hoping to have someone else describe something close to what I had experienced, but it never went that direction. I had to eventually delete it. This is what I mean when I say I am alone in my thoughts. If no one has experienced anything somewhat like this, there is no point in talking about it. Sometimes a Christian friend does, and we share intimate knowledge about these things to the point it feels like we are going to lift off the ground. But I can't do that with normal day to day Christians that don't care or know. They either change the subject, or think the other Christian is out of his/her mind.

Interesting article. I've not had that experience myself but have met people who have had something similar. I did experience some challenges against demonic forces if that counts.

Subterfuge - Sorry brother I normally don't follow links ... dial-up ='s but if you could elaborate a bit further here, I'd be happy to read it, and maybe have some questions.

But I think your friend might be crazy.
Most of mine are.

Richard - I don't believe unity is promised for here on earth, and as hard as it is to live though at times, I do believe God is at work within it.

Also just to point out those three, though I recognize them to be examples, were not issues then because they for the most part did not exist then. I understand what you are saying, they are divisive issues now, I just wouldn't use them in a hundred year reference.

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Which thief~»«~are you?ChristKrew #185Anointing foreheads with the paintball for a while now.

Richard - I don't believe unity is promised for here on earth, and as hard as it is to live though at times, I do believe God is at work within it.

Also just to point out those three, though I recognize them to be examples, were not issues then because they for the most part did not exist then. I understand what you are saying, they are divisive issues now, I just wouldn't use them in a hundred year reference.

Mark - Unity is required for any family to stand strong in the face of trials. see Mark 3:23-26. Just like you I believe God is working in all situations despite how bad they seem.

Abortion and Contraceptives did exist a hundred years ago. It wasn't as mainstream as it is now but it definitely was around back then. However, your right same sex marriage didn't exist as we know it today 100 years ago. But homosexuality has been around for ages. The point is that there was a time when despite our doctrinal differences many Christians stood against abortion, contraceptives, and same-sex unions. Today we have a different picture with so called religious "left" and "right."

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Yet in the Catholic church there are many different versions of Jesus and Mary hanging from the walls, statues etc.

That is true. Yet the same God who said that 5 chapters later in Exodus commands Moses that statues be made. "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be." - Exodus 25:18-20 This was decorations/images...statues! being made for the Ark of the Covenant.

Later when the Israelites became sick in the desert (because of their whining and ungratefulness and sins towards God) God told Moses: "And the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." Which by the way is why the serpent on the pole has been associated as a symbol in the medical field.

"Under its brim were gourds, for thirty cubits, compassing the sea round about; the gourds were in two rows, cast with it when it was cast. It stood upon twelve oexen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; the sea was upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward." - 1Kings 7:24-25 Here you have a description of Solomon's temple and if you keep reading the verses you will see that it was packed with every kind of image and ornament.

Make no mistake, the Catholic Church believes that idolatry is wrong. But simply having statues or pictures of Jesus, angels, and saints is not idolatry. It is art and it's a way to express our reverance towards God and to honor holy men and women who have lived lives worthy to emulate because they gave their all to God. If having a statue is idolatry then so is having a picture of your family and loved ones in your wallet, in your home, and in your computer. So is having a statue of any important figure for that matter so that includes national monuments and public and state statues.

It's clear in Scripture that the religious use of statues is not prohibited, but the ABUSE of worshiping them as gods is. Statues and images like the veil in Exodus 26:31 are visible reminders of invisible realities. "And you shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen; in skilled work shalle it be made, with cherubim;" -Exodus 26:31

By the way I'm slowly having a dialogue with a young jehovah witness. Surprisingly he has come back and we've actually had a small correspondence via email. This is surprising as normally jws aren't the type to get into "debates" or lively discussions with anyone. Once they run into resistance or challenges to their doctrine they tend to just excuse themselves and go on to "easier" targets. But this young gentleman seems determined to share with me his beliefs. Not sure what direction this will go but I'm hoping that I'll be able to show him the doctrinal errors of the jws. My guess is the divinity of Jesus Christ will be the biggest discussion we will have.

Has anyone had a successful dialogue with a jw? Any advice? Any former jws in here that converted to Christianity?