I am very interested in hearing about the grant for residential care that you are applying for. That is the sort of information that could be most helpful for other parents. Is the residential care specially for children with behaviour problems? Whatever sort of care, it must be a huge relief to think your burden will be lifted and someone else can look your daughter’s basic needs. As we know all the other needs would take more than a lifetime to fulfil and not even then.

The hypervigilance took us a while to realise what was going on as the kid was so sneaky and quiet. We got used to going round checking where he was especially, if we were having conversations we didn’t want him to hear. Even so, many times he repeated things back we had said and we didn’t have a clue how he could have heard. Occasionally we would talk about something and carry on speaking as we checked behind doors and bumped him opening it when he hadn’t heard us coming. He never got embarrassed at being caught but he did get angry he was thwarted.

Every day when he came home from school he would ask what we had done all day, he wanted a run down of each hour of the day so I would reply with “waiting for you to come home”. I was advised to say this by someone who fostered children, She had one with ‘attachment disorder’ who needed to know what she had done all day when he couldn’t see what was going on in his absence, She presumed it was a control issue.

The kid came out of his room constantly after bedtime, to go to the toilet so he could leave the door open each time he went back. It didn’t matter how many visits to the toilet, he still wet the bed. He used peeing as payback and he seemed to have plenty of things to pay us back for, like catching him stealing, lying, not giving him what he asked for, not letting him do what he wanted, stay up late….you know how it goes!

I know what you mean about boring to talk to…..the kid had no conversation, I suppose because he had no hobbies, pastimes or interests he had nothing to share and as he only cared about himself the only time he spoke was to ask for something or argue. When we had conversations he would interrupt and try to change it to focus on him. Things like asking us if we thought he had painted his model figures brilliantly……no, we didn’t! He had poor fine motor skills. He couldn’t tie shoelaces until he was 12 and even then not properly.He was dull academically and used to ask a LOT of stupid questions a two year could answer. I wondered whether he asked just to hear his own voice. He couldn’t think things through, work anything out for himself…no problem solving skills. Yet he was so conniving he must have had some thought processes.

I look forward to hearing more from you. It sounds like our experiences are very similar.

Hi JanThanks for the laughs. The social worker called and asked the usual general yet probing questions with a sticker shock anxiety awaiting. It becomes quite comical for me. They are confused at her behavior because she presents very well, always the model child in any structured hospital type environment. She loves doctors. He actually told me a colleague asked him if she was retarded. (This is the current hospital.) We went through the usual everything her processing speed is exceptional and she entered sixth grade at grade level but now functions more like a two or three year old on many levels. I explained to him and he agreed that her behaviors and emotions are very unpredictable over the last several months.He said I don't know who I am going to get each time I talk with her. Sometimes she is bubbly the next she is telling him to shut up or cussing at him. I didn't have to tell him him anything about "welcome to my world" he got it completely. He said he believes she has a personality disorder, he also believes that some information wasn't passed on from the bio family concerning the woman. Her grandmother and mother most definitely have personality disorders of some type I thought they had anger management but he said there is much more than that going on here. My daughter told me she got talked to over poking staff, hitting vents, running in and out of her room while others were trying to sleep,etc. She has also been takin down in restraint form and escorted many times to the quiet room. My daughter would become very angry when we would whisper in our room. She couldn't hear us so she would slide against the wall but for me if things were to quiet because we always had our third and fourth eye and ear on high we would stop and catch her. She would attempt to keep her door open, etc. Very Very Sneaky and Quiet. I was crazy enough to stay on top of it but I didn't realize how crazy and Angry I was making her it doing so. I had a teenager in my house that wanted to pound on her for the level of disrespect and so did the other teenagers, he was just more vocal about it. She always has to test everyone with physical aggression. One day she kicked him for no reason, he kicked her twice as hard and never tried it again. But she also had her eye on his $300.00 Zune player so she quickly went for another plan of attack and that was to invade personal space to the max waiting for him to leave it for one second so she could steal it. She displays indiscriminate affection towards males, females too. She will flirt cozy up to the men. She is eleven. She used to do perform this ritualistic walk around men at age 8. Tow steps to the left, step to the front of them then two steps to the right not taking her eyes off of them. I used to call her out in stores when she wander a few feet away only to find her an older gentlemen as her prey. I would purposefully embarrassed her on the spot by saying I am sure this man is very nice but do you know him, very loudly.The boring conversation today was the same robotic conversation. What are you doing back and forth after five minutes I struggle. My daughter only knows one emotion anger other wise it is a flat line/flat affect. Whenever she gets what she wants she gets angry very angry. When she doesn't get what she wants she attempts to manipulate until she understands I am not going to give in, then she retaliates with physical aggression or repercussions like smearing feces or breaking dishes. I will get more info on grant. Honestly, I know we will be denied but will appeal because one of the requirements is hallucinations/hearing voices one thing my daughter has never complained about unless trying to manipulate the hospital staff. Thank you Sahmera

I’m pleased you can laugh, that is a good sign that you can see the other side of these crazy problems. It’s as though we can begin looking at our lives as an outsider looking in and we can see how crazy it is and we have been accepting that’s how things are. Maybe we should report more of the 'funny' things we have experienced?

Every time I read your posts I wonder if our kids are related! Their behaviours are like physical symptoms of an illness. These kids present extremely well and put on a different act/mask for each person they encounter because they need to mirror and manipulate their weaknesses. The kid used to perform brilliantly to ‘older’ ladies and was sickly sweet cute. He made a big mistake with my mother on their second meeting. When he was on her own with her he asked if she was going to leave him money in her will when she died. As she was a prison visitor she was on her toes and told him she intended to spend everything she had before she checked out.

I have heard other parents say their psychopathic kids were diagnosed as being retarded and I often thought the kid was too. I really don’t know if he was retarded or just stupid, with lack of education and problem solving skills. He seemed unable to follow the simplest instruction. If he was asked to take his plate, glass and another item from the table he would say he couldn’t because he could only carry two things. It was as though he lived in that very second and thinking the next one was impossible. I suppose it could have been that he thought we would tell him it was OK if he left the other things. He was incredibly lazy.

We often wondered if the kid was on castors because he appeared out of the blue during conversations, it was spooky, like an apparition! Any other time he presence was announced with a lot of noise and carried on with stupid noises, tapping or any other irritating thing to let us know he was there. Isn’t it wearing being on super alert all day when they are around?At last you have found someone who recognises your daughter has a personality disorder. I have been reading a lot about foster and adoption agencies sending children to parents without preparation. There seems to be many issues such as problem children being difficult to place so parents are not warned. The agencies may well believe the child will improve once they are part of a caring family OR for the financial compensation they get for doing so. Another parent did say that the agency knew of the child’s family background and deliberately withheld that information, I presume so as not to lose potential parents but no concern for the long term prospects.As it has been proved by research that psychopathic behaviour is highly heritable it is vital everything is known about the child’s family.

These kids do get very angry and being thwarted in anything they want initiates another pay back, usually sly and sneaky and that casts doubt on them not being able to plan ahead. I suppose I will have to think back over that one as the kid may just have taken the opportunity that presented itself at that particular moment, that could be why most of the behaviours were bizarre or appeared stupid.

The kid also used to ‘display’ affection to the least likely people…even me at times but it was done so disingenuously so totally transparent. He used women and didn’t seem to make any effort with men. I did wonder if he was gay, like his uncle, as he got to be a teenager because of certain ways of behaving. Not that would make the slightest difference but would explain some things. It was strange because I also felt at times he could be asexual.

Why do you feel you will be denied the grant? If your daughter has said to hospital staff she hears voices, whether she really does or not, could you get a statement from them saying she has told them she does? Even saying she hears voices if she doesn’t must be an indicator of a personality problem if not psychosis? Are they looking for evidence of personality disorder or psychosis. If they are looking for the latter I presume because medication may be appropriate. I have read that often finance is only available for a treatable conditions and psychopathy is not one of those conditions.

Is there any chance you could make a legal case about the adoption agency withholding vital information about your daughter that would have led you to making a different decision about her adoption?

Hi JanI dodged a bullet with our nine year old RAD child undiagnosed. We provided the agency with notice to remove her from our home due to our daughters increasing violence and this child's tantrums. She carried such a heavy, chaotic spirit. I got every spec of everything that was associated with her out of my home. In less than one hour the house is peaceful not just quiet but peaceful for the first time in two years. We will remain as distant aunties to her just because we do love her just can't live with her. She would get so mean and started picking up my daughters aggression, biting, pushing me, and throwing stuff. She is a beautiful, creative, and talented child with a whole a lot of problems yet to come.Whew!We have one child left besides our daughter. He will be leaving in another week. I have tolerated the decline with daughter along with two other children that scream and yell almost daily because they don't get what they want or become angry with each other or just angry. We are taking a break from fostering children for a few months to enjoy ourselves as a couple again. I love fostering children. I absolutely love them in my home and watching them progress or move on where ever life may taken them. I enjoy providing opportunities for them no one else would consider. Your post reminded me of moments with my daughter making needless noise when talking with someone. I remember correcting her many times for shuffling cards, taping her fingers, knuckle cracking, and the list goes on because she wasn't getting the attention.My daughter never used to be lazy until recently. I t does sadden me because I worked with mentally ill and I know how lazy they can be. She is very lazy but it could be so much worse. More Later

I know what you mean when you say how peaceful the house becomes when the disruptive child in not around, a calm descends like a clean air. I found a 'smell' went away, not only the dirty smells but also the 'smell' of something evil. It used to remind me of the old horror movies when a spook appeared and it was preceded by an evil smell.

You say your undiagnosed EAD child has left your home, could I ask who decided this child had RAD? Were you told this before the child came to you? Were you prepared beforehand? Did you feel RAD was the only condition she had?

I'm full of admiration that you look after children who must all have issues when they come to live with you. Has your most troubled daughter made you wary of accepting children with severe problems in the future? Maybe you feel you could do it again because you would not get attached and treat it like a project now you have experience?

I would be prepared to consider supervising a psychopathic child short term, in the right surroundings, but I would see it as a completely different situation. When it is s child who you hope will become a useful member of society the expectation is hopeless with kids like we have experienced. All we can do is containment and keep the battleground as safe as possible for everyone else. I have said many times I felt like a prison warden and had to be constantly vigilant and think creatively which is exhausting. Having to wake each morning and try to predict and pre-empt that day's tactics doesn't allow you to relax for a moment. Maybe if I was paid the salary of a prison guard and only had to work a 40 hour week then I might have accepted it. I do remember feeling that there was no end in sight, no light at the end of the tunnel and trying to predict the outcome was scary. I started to think that the only way we would get any help would be for the kid to be picked up for criminal behaviour so considered letting him commit a crime rather than actively prevent it as we normally did. It was a dilemma as we couldn't allow anyone to be hurt or permanently deprived of anything so shoplifting might have been the solution, then the goods could be returned. What sort of person thinks like this....me...I did. That is what happened to me, he had got me thinking as I had never done before. I wanted him taken away into custody or care, I didn't care which as long as he was gone.

We never did find the owner of the gold wedding ring he stole when he was very young which has always bothered me as it may have memories for the owner. I wonder what he is stealing now after years of practice? He will be 18 soon but I haven't seen or heard anything about him for a few years now. Maybe I will see him on TV news sometime?

I never thought I would find someone else that understood our language. I left work early to ensure the child got in the vehicle because of her attachment to me. I began disinfecting the house immediately. I opened the windows, vacuumed, threw out everything and anything I associated with her along with food items, it was magical.The cleanliness/freshness/like you described the evil. It is kind of funny because I would go to work saying my house is dirty no matter what I do it is dirty. My coworkers kept telling me it was in my head and I said no there's something off and dirty. When that child left my energy level jumped about four levels and I took the most relaxing deep breath and actually felt good after I took it. The next day for the first time in two years we actually slept in until 9:00am. I love her I just can't live with her. She will be getting a full scale psych eval within a couple of months that will inevitably say RAD. She had to be in the same room as me or my partner, the door to her room had to be left open as to see one of us at all times, if I left and didn't report back when I said I would she would begin searching the house for me, in the night she would come into our bedroom and sleep at the end of the bed or on the floor, if I left without notice to her personally she would search the house in a panic, she hoard foods, she doesn't have any real friends just acquaintances, she is very oppositional, pretty much the same as our daughter with out the physical aggression, many other descriptors or meanness. Her meanness was different throwing tantrums like nobody's business. She could break glass with her voice. We put up with this stuff for two years thinking she would settle down. She did a tiny bit better with medication but I see the same patterned things. She likes to have parties, I suppose because she is probably reliving the last day with her mother, she creates invitations, wants special seating, etc. I truly enjoy working with children or adults with developmental disabilities and/or mental illness. We are taking a couple of months break due to toxic level of whatever we had floating in our house from the children. The boy will be leaving next week. I can hardly wait. The three children together was just a non stop battle of wills/attention seeking behaviors/jealousy/control/toxic waste. We have had other children in our home but not to the magnitude of all three spinning at once for such a long period with no relief in sight.I have found that children with sexual issues carry a heavy/confused/chaotic/dirty presence. I have worked with teenagers that were predators/young children that were identified as predators. They are different.I saw my daughter over the weekend. My partner and I went together. I am sure my daughter didn't appreciate that because she only wants me to go and visit. She had four words to say yeah and I don't know. She has ZERO conversation. I tried to entice her with a few pieces of candy so she could feel like she got something from me. My partner finally gave herself admission to say out loud she didn't like her and was okay with it.So she can now move onto to dealing with her differently in a better place than guilt. The workers that call and say hey I got a child that needs a home wouldn't find a home for any of these children if they told the whole truth. I discovered late that this child had been tossed out of every previous placement for her entire short life for tantrums and sexual misconduct with others. We didn't have the problem of hyper sexual because we were hyper vigilant with protecting others. We got a more than healthy dose of tantrums in the beginning it was daily screaming fits. I like to see the progress because she did progress however small and if it will help them in the next home then its even better. I understand about the looking at things differently now. Yes, I now see things differently. I will keep trying with the children because they are all different. We haven't always had to be like guards in our home. I would like a children that doesn't have sexual predatory tendencies in my house for awhile. The supervision in the house and out gets to be very tiring. The hyper awareness gets to be tiresome.

I have been waiting for my child to turn twelve so she may experience the detention system.I have found through another friend that it doesn't work either they just assign a probation officer and no other support. The child can continue there run of stealing for quite some time before any actual consequences occur. Then it is the parents fault and you will face having your child taken away from you. Different for everyone I guess but that path didn't look promising even for me to wait for it.

When I read about you disinfecting the house I laughed out loud. I was worse that that! We didn’t have a dishwasher while the kid was there and I used to pour boiling water over his plates and cutlery because I washed them. I used to disinfect anything he touched including the phone and door handles. I couldn’t touch his bedding or dirty clothes so would wear rubber gloves. I wouldn’t let him put his head on my cushion on the sofa. I felt that I would be tainted by his smell, as I said before, the smell of evil.

If anyone had seen me do these things I would have been diagnosed with OCD. We not only speak the same language, we behave in the same reactive ways. Makes me wonder whether ‘they’ put the word ‘reactive’ in attachment disorder because that is what everyone involved with a RAD kid does? Not that the kid had RAD, he was unofficially ‘diagnosed’ as fledgling psychopath. I hope you get the results from the psyche evaluation for your daughter. Would you be satisfied with a diagnosis of RAD or do you think this is overused and not fully understood? Many parents feel that the symptoms of RAD are because of some other condition and other conditions are missed. You obviously have a lot of experience with troubled children so you can probably see the difference.

It must be extremely difficult for you to let the child go as she is so attached to you, it must add to the guilt that she is being rejected again. If she can attach to you then maybe she can attach to her next carer but that makes me wonder about RAD if she can attach. Has she been described as having 'disorganised attachment'? Do you know if she could have another condition such as foetal alcohol affect which can’t be seen as clearly as FA syndrome?

I was thinking about what you were saying about sexual issues and thought we didn’t have that problem but maybe we did! The kid used to walk around the house naked making me notice him. He also used to leave the bathroom door open when he was peeing, this toilet was opposite the office area and right in my vision. There was another toilet downstairs but he would come upstairs to use that one.As he was coming up to being a teenager it was not appropriate but also very surprising as how many boys would allow a woman (even his own mother) see them naked? What made it worse is when we decided we had enough of wet beds we put him back in pull ups he would flounce around the house wearing just them. Then he would do a bouncy crawl upstairs on all fours. It made me feel sick. I suppose the controversial RAD therapists would say this behaviour was because he wanted to be babied to go back to his early attachment issues.

If he did have attachment issues it was of his own making, he rejected his mother from birth and his father took over his care as he worked from home. He was in his care all day, every day and had total attention to his needs.

I know that sense of relief your partner must have felt when she allowed herself to be honest about her feelings. From that point on I felt I could start to get back to being me, the less reactive me, the less angry me, the less guilty me. I feel there is no such thing as unconditional love. How can you love someone who is bad, why should we? Evil killers had mothers who loved them but what did they love? Was it because they felt it their duty to love their child? I know you say you love your daughter so you must see some goodness in her.

Do you think you were not warned about the child’s behaviour and many placements just because you may have been put off or was it also because no-one knew what was wrong with her and had some hope that you may be the family who could deal with such serious problems? I have heard that some US foster and adoption agencies are paid a bonus if they place difficult children, do you know anything about this?

I suppose we would have had the same situation if the kid had been caught stealing or vandalising property. A social worker or probation officer who would be suckered by him and the blame put on us. They wouldn’t have any idea of the vigilance to prevent it.

I spoke with my daughter and some yahoo of an intern counselor this afternoon. I was informed last night that my daughter became angry at her roommate for supposedly calling her names. So my daughter Ms. Revenge decided to tear up her roommates stuff, throw everything out of the room, refuse to go to quiet area, escorted quite aggressive with staff, but accepted a pill of Zyprexa to calm herself down. Do you see a future drug addict? She again attempts to manipulate to her own liking. During the conversation my daughter didn't want to ask me a special question so the counselor asked for her. Can she a pet. So I went through my reasons for the five thousandth time as to why she will not ever have a pet in my home. My daughter displayed aggression a few days prior to this incident and called to ask for a list of expensive electronics. Is there something I missing? After she hears the expected no she went into her I don't want to come home regime. I explained to the young inexperienced counselor that my daughter perseverate's on things until she can find something new to perseverate on. My daughter believes she is upsetting me by not coming home. Quite the contrary, it's been peaceful and quiet/resting. I said that's fine you can stay as long as it takes. Could this type of manipulation be why some think my daughter is retarded. She asks the same question every single time but with new counselor. She asks for the same exact things/performs the same behaviors, she hasn't grown at all in these areas. I think people thought we would be able to direct and care for my daughter or they wiped there brow in relief so as to not have to care for her given the diagnosis's. I think it is a little of both. More later Thanks

That seems to be so typical of counsellors, they haven’t a clue how to deal with manipulating children. It’s not only the counsellors either, it can also be family. The school counsellor the kid had was completely duped by him and came to the house to give my partner a bad time over his poor parenting. At the same time the grandmother was telling him to give the kid everything he asked for.

They were both of the ‘give them a hug, a puppy and music lessons’ brigade and all will work out fine. We could have given the kid the earth and he still would ask for more. As you say, they ask for the same things over and over as though they have never asked before or given the reply. Same with doing bad things, they repeat the same bad behaviour and are punishment insensitive, He also used to ask the same stupid questions time after time, even things he knew the answers to and I began to wonder if it was a control issue. Could it be that because he knew how we would have to answer the questions he asked then he was in control of our responses?

I nearly took my sister’s kitten but decided against it when I saw how the kid was treating it at her home. There is no way I would let him have a small pet. When we looked after a friend’s very large dog he was terrified of it even though it was completely harmless so I wasn’t worried about him being near it. Once he got over the terror he would order it around. If it was laying down he would order it to stand up and if it was standing ordering it to sit. He showed no signs of anything other than wanting to control it. I saw immediately what he was doing and stopped it straight away. The poor thing was so obedient I would not allow it to be confused and manipulated. He would kill any living creature he found in the garden, including ladybirds and butterflies, which I found shocking. I presumed this killing instinct would get worse if we were not around to stop it. He offered, with such excitement, to take and bury the neighbours childrens’ pet bird when it died. I felt really worried about his desire to have the dead creature. He wasn’t interested when it was alive but it’s death seemed to fire him up.

We had a similar incident when my partner got really annoyed at one of his worst malicious acts and he raised his hand to the kid. It didn’t connect but the kid threw himself to the floor and said he was going to phone the child abuse line, so my partner handed him the phone and offered to dial the number for him. He told him if he phoned they would come and take him into care and that would solve our problem. Of course he didn’t want to do anything to please us so stormed off to his room. No doubt he did something destructive in there as payback but I really didn’t care, I never went in there. He would do things like cut the legs off his pyjamas or the bottom out of his school bag or take something that belonged to us and break it up. The favourite was to pee on something.

How I wish these counsellors could get the real picture and not tell us to adopt the techniques used for naughty kids. Don’t they realise we have tried everything?What does infuriate me is being told what to do by a person who doesn’t even have a child. What we need is for one these people to come into our homes without telling the kid they are there to observe them. If the kid was told they were a friend calling in for coffee then they might see more of what they do, like manipulate. Even then they wouldn’t get the full range of behaviours from the repertoire. It took me long enough to believe what I was seeing and I was there every day.

HiBrought more memories back. My girl would throw herself down the stairs, for fun. She liked the feeling of tumbling down. If I would escort her to her room she would drop to the floor making it look like I pushed her to the floor. Sometimes I would stand and clap saying you win the academy award for stunt dropping. She would throw herself to the floor, against a wall, she put her head through wall at a hospital literally. She likes to take animals apart piece by piece. Last summer I talked with her about trying something different instead spending her summer tracking bugs. Every summer she goes out and spends hours looking for bugs yet if there is a bug in her room she freaks or if one is found in the yard or home but not when she is into her bug zone she will run away screaming. I have stopped other children in the home from threatening or hitting my daughter. Like you said she would get them back in her evil ways like the toothbrush incidents or stealing from them or stealing car keys but it didn't always have to be that she got angry. It was control. I believe she had a master plan as to how she wanted the family to look one being without my partner. She didn't want any other children either so she would target them to go off and misbehave. She would lead them down a path of destruction.Previously, in your blog you asked if we knew anything. We did have some of the diagnosis but I don't know if anyone could have predicted her turn of destruction. She was displaying none of this the previous year and half before.Even with her mom going through the paces to get her back she displayed no signs such as her daughter even at that age. In the psych evaluation they did say she might need more later but I assumed she would lose touch with reality or something of that nature not the hostility or aggression or revenge. We just had it out I mean had it out with our boys wanna be counselor. The boy doesn't like her and has requested a new one. Do you think anyone has listened? No, so we once again went to bat for him now we have a meeting. For WHAT!@ Ego issues on the counselors part? He has consistently tried to change this boy into hetrosexual, the boy says I like both. He likes to cross dress at home only. Our mistake is we supported him. The counselor said we coerced him into being gay. Pleassee.