Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

It is difficult to see Venus as coming from beyond Jupiter, unless she has big company or flies in from above the ecliptic plane. Far easier is to have Venus very close to the Sun.

Mars would have had an Io-type orbit with another body, such that the tilt of the axis of Mars was quite different to today, and the surface of Mars was eroded away. What happened to those eroded rocks ? If this eroded material is outside of the Solar System then how did Mars get past Saturn and Jupiter. If not, then is there a suitable body for Mars to interact with. Venus, perhaps, with Mars in a Moon-type orbit around Venus. The material would have only been going in the one direction, and it must be assumed that Venus was big enough to trap nearly all of the material from Mars.

In this way all we need is heightened electrical conditions to produce all the physical evidence, whilst keeping the planets and moons inside the orbit of Jupiter, except for Ganymede.

I did think that the sophisticated fossils in the Cambrian rocks suggested that they came from another planet. Now I am thinking that in Precambrian times the Earth moved into a warm orbit and life flourished, but left no fossils. It was only when a massive electric current moved past and through Earth producing EDM and laminated deposition that fossils were formed.

So life could have evolved for thousands or millions of years in Precambrian times. Cheers, Mo

I am after the simplest model. Venus was nearer the Sun or the Sun was very much brighter. This compares with Venus being born from another planet which seems exceedingly unlikely. Asteroids could have come from Mars and Earth so both of these planets would have orbited the Sun near where the asteroids are now. Possibly Mars was in an orbit around Earth very much like the Moon orbits Eart with one hemisphere facing Earth, which would account for one hemisphere of Mars being much more eroded. The Sun would have been very much brighter to allow life on Earth, which was orbiting near where the asteroids are now.

This would account for the oceans being electrically gouged out and the geological column being formed. And for Mars to be so eroded and the two main types of asteroids being produced. Thus all that is needed is Earth to go into a very elliptical orbit to evaporate enough ocean water to form the ice at the poles. Mars would have gone for a wander too. Earth interacted electrically with Venus and Venus might have changed orbit too, or else it might have stayed in much the same orbit.

I think that this is the simplest model that accounts for what we know. As such it merits consideration. Cheers, Mo

Antarctica. If the pole shifted 30 degrees then this shift was mainly along the line of the Americas. So where Antarctica and South America nearly meet would have been 30 degrees closer to the equator. This means that most of Antarctica would have been ice free before the Younger Dryas. So people would have lived in Antarctica then.

These people may have been part of a global civilization that built with those super-huge boulders with many such buildings or temples on the equator. So there may easily be such a building in Antarctica.

So there was a civilization on Earth that had large creatures and the people could lift huge boulders. The magnetic field would have been much larger. Mars may have been in a Moon-type orbit around the Earth. This would allow EDM to occur on the one side of Mars which faced Earth. The other type of orbit is with Mars spinning at exactly the same rate as the Earth, but upside-down, so that a current emanating from a site on Mars would strike the same spot on Earth. So a person on Earth would be dreading when Mars got highest in the sky.

The problem is that a portion of the asteroids were likely from Mars and we are guessing that this was due to one hemisphere of Mars being eroded. And another portion of the asteroids were likely from Birkeland currents running N-S and gouging out the oceans. Now if the Earth's north pole was always facing one hemisphere of Mars then we could have had erosion from Mars and erosion of the Earth's oceans at the same time. Mars could also come to the same rotation speed as Earth in this configuration. However Mars would have undergone a pole shift after this.

So possibly Earth had Mars orbiting it and then something electrical occurred. Milky Way stories suggest that a galactic superwave might have caused this. Mars lost crust and Earth gained oceans. Later they came apart and the ice ages occurred on Earth and Mars got the big scar and a pole shift. So civilization was difficult through the ice ages but the Younger Dryas ended the civilization and only snippets survived.

"Now if the Earth's north pole was always facing one hemisphere of Mars then we could have had erosion from Mars and erosion of the Earth's oceans at the same time. Mars could also come to the same rotation speed as Earth in this configuration."

This is a lot like the Saturn System line of planets. If Mars was in orbit around Earth such that the North Pole of Earth was always facing Mars and only one side of Mars faced Earth then Mars and Earth would regularly align with the Sun or with Jupiter or Saturn. This may have produced large current flow and have been very significant to Earthlings. They would produce those Saturn System type images, but this is before the Younger Dryas and before the ice ages.

The conjunction Sun - Earth+Mars - Jupiter or Sun - Earth+Mars - Saturn could have been times of a lot of erosion on Mars and Earth. This gives the possibility of more than one major event like the K-T boundary.

That current between Mars and Earth plus the large magnetic field may have warmed Earth enough when they orbited out near where the asteroid belt is now. Thus the Sun did not have to be very much brighter. Although heightened electrical conditions were most likely through the whole Solar System, probably sending the double layers around the planets into glow mode. Thus big rings of light would have been seen around Jupiter and Saturn especially.

What about the timing of events. The change from 360 day year to the 365.24 year is not clear. Was it the Younger Dryas or Noah or even after Noah. The ice ages and the Younger Dryas probably took a hundred years, or so, so maybe around Babylon there was more human survival and the 'Saturn System'-type configuration images and memories survived. (The ice ages being due to a very elliptical orbit.)

If Saturn came into the Solar System then it would have been before the Cambrian rocks were formed. Because the asteroids and the Cambrian rocks would have formed at the same time, and at the same place which is where the asteroid belt is now. So we can assume that the Mars-Earth configuration lasted from the end of the Precambrian right up to the ice ages. This suggests that not a long time was involved.

Now the current between Earth and Mars may have subsided allowing a civilization to flourish. The big stone building and pyramids are evidence of that. However one would think that Mars and Earth would cool without the current between them. Perhaps the core of Earth was heated very much by the current and after the current dissipated the heat from the core slowly transferred to the surface. The magnetic field of Earth would have been very large and this would have contributed to the large creatures and the use of large boulders.

Then there is the matter of how much time between the Younger Dryas and Noah. Was this the time of the Neanderthals, Stonehenge and Gobleki Tepi. And one would think that the pyramids of Giza would have told the story of the previous configuration, the ice ages and the Younger Dryas, but there is the shift from the 360 day year to the 365.24 day year. I'm still at a loss in determining what those passages and chambers are saying, although I have considered this for 40 years or so. The religions interpretation just doesn't do it for me.

I see an issue with the pole. With Mars having one face always pointing at Earth's north pole and Mars in a Moon-like orbit around Earth then Earth would have had two spins. The ordinary spin with the N-S axis and Mars having a similar speed of rotation, and a spin with the axis somewhere on the equator.

Thus the North Pole would be pointing at the Sun and Mars and then some time later the North Pole would be pointing at Mars and to somewhere 45 degrees, say, from the Sun. Or else Mars and Earth are always in line with the Sun with Antarctica always facing the Sun. If this line also always extends to Saturn or Jupiter then we are getting very close to Dave T's Saturn System.

There are other configurations to consider, but for now the issue is how, and when, did Earth's axis change from facing the Sun to it's present orientation. Basically I can see three scenarios. 1. A messy break up with fast changes.2. A slowish change as Earth goes into a very elliptical orbit. 3. An interaction with another planet, presumably Mars.

Each has something to offer. 1. Did something cause the break up. 2. Leaving Mars the spin of Earth may have been unstable. Also the Sun being the major influence on the Earth there may have been forces that pushed the Earth into an upright orbit. 3. This is still the most likely, for it would be super dramatic enough to make creatures go extinct.

Let's look at the Sun-Earth-Mars-Saturn configuration. Perhaps it is better to have Jupiter instead of Saturn. Looking from Earth this is Mars always with the double layers around Jupiter direcly behind Mars. Very Saturn System like. However if Mars had the Moon-like orbit then when Sun-Earth_Mars-Jupiter alignment occurred then much electricity could flow and be very significant to the people. Like maybe they had to predict this and dive underground for a while.

With the asteroids made up mostly of rocks from Earth and Mars then this places the old configuration of planets where the asteroids are now and not with Saturn. It could be that a Precambrian Saturn System existed and ran into the Solar System starting the Mars - Earth interactions producing the asteroids and the Earth oceans and the geological column. However there is no need for that Saturn System to have been a linear configuration.

So just by seeing that the asteroids came from Earth and Mars we arrived at a configuration very similar to the Saturn System. To me this means that there is truth in Earth and Mars being out where the asteroid belt is now and there is truth in the Saturn System. The maypole stands true for both!

DiscussionThrough independent means, geology rather than ancient history, I have verified Dave T's configuration of planets. However there are differences but the things we agree on are most significant. Major cataclysms and difficult survival for humanity. Velikovsky-type planetary orbits and massive electrical interactions between planets.

I used the geology of Mars to see that crust had been removed from Mars especially in one hemisphere noting that this hemisphere is at an angle to the current axis. The most likely cause was Mars in a Moon or Io like orbit around some probably bigger planet. And then a disturbance which caused the Martian axis to shift. Then I saw, thanks to Steve, that the S-shaped Atlantic Ocean was probably formed by a Birkeland Current running nearly North-South. This was likely one prong of the stable four pronged Birkeland Current thus forming some of the Pacific and the Indian Ocean as well as producing the magnetic field of the Earth via a prong going through the centre of the Earth.

Then came the realization that asteroids were made up mainly of two types and Earth and Mars rocks could fit the bill. All that was needed to think was that the Birkeland Current that eroded the crust of Mars was the same current that went through and around Earth and formed the asteroids at the same time. That put Earth and Mars out where the asteroids are now, and hence close to Jupiter (and Saturn).

So Mars was in a Moon-like orbit but the North Pole of Earth was always facing Mars. The Sun was too far away to produce much light or heat so that was supplied by the Birkeland Current. The electricity would increase greatly when Sun - Earth - Mars - Jupiter position occurred and this is the configuration which is very close to the Dave T configuration.