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Actually if you recall, when Vector regained his true memories, he instantly used them to trick Nasch into attacking before Switching back to ...well VECTOR. hell he knew about DonK's Manipulation to begin with, he wasn't confused in the slightest. all of which makes the sudden change more and more out of character.

yes the whole thing speaks volumes about Yumas Character, but it would have been more in character for Vector to try and Drag Yuma down out of Spite (ie, is motivation for LITERALLY EVERYTHING HE HAS DONE UP TIL THEN)

Vector said that he had regained his memories before that, he had planned to trick everyone using them beforehand. The fact remains that he was certainly more unstable than usual, because he realized he used to be a good guy. It was in character for him to try to drag Yuma with him, which is what he did, but upon the realization that Yuma is willing to die for "Ray", and still considers him his friend, it makes sense that Vector decided not to kill him, because he was kind of a mess, and was trying to decide whether he was Vector or Ray. Yuma's actions just made him decide more quickly.

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Originally Posted by Never die

Out of all the 3 instances i mentioned which one was that was established?Unless i don't remember correctly i am pretty sure none of those things were explained elsewhere apart from that arc.
Yes but if a trope is done to death it becomes cliche,the writers had us fooled as when we saw Z-one's face we thought he was yusei yet they gave us something new and interesting,and surprisingly the fact that him being a Yusei cosplayer added more to his character and made him better than he would have been had he been a future Yusei.
As for Vector turning him turning good would not have ruined him..........had he not been the person that killed Nasch and his sister because he did not like Nasch and guess why he did not like Nasch?Because he did not like his voice.The first thing he does when he regains his memories is use them to trick Nasch,not to mention he admits he knew Don screwed with his memories but did not care at all since he was content with who he was.And guess what he does right after yuma tries to save him?He tries to take him down with him since he was going to die anyways,so that last second him turning around is sudden and contradicts his whole character.

Is "Antagonist is future protagonist" really done to death? I've never seen it before.

This thread seems to be specifically talking about the anime only, so I'll do that first:

1. ZEXAL - Surprising absolutely no one, ZEXAL is my favorite. I think many of you have seen my spiel before, so I'll be brief. I can't judge ZEXAL as anything less than my favorite when it moved to tears in the last arc multiple times. Nothing in the anime barring the Ceremonial Battle in DM has ever done that otherwise.

2. GX - GX was an absolute fucking mess. Very little of it made any sense whatsoever. And I love every moment of it. The writers clearly had no plan from the start and were just throwing stuff at the wall. Hit or miss, it was entertaining and without it, there is 0 chance I'd be into YGO at all. GX brought me back into the fandom. Twice. The second time, thankfully, was in time for ZEXAL.

3. DM - DM is good, yeah. I actually have a LOT of complains about it, some of which can't be counted because of the early installment weirdness. But it still has its charms. DM is of course how I got into YGO in the first place, but as I said, it was GX that drew be back in and kept me around.

4. 5D's - 5D's was also a mess. But unlike GX, it didn't start as a mess and was actively trying to NOT be a mess. And it failed at that. I'm aware of the behind-the-scenes stuff, but that does not change the end result. To be clear though, I love 5D's. I just don't love it the least of all YGO. The Fortune Cup probably is still the best arc YGO has ever had, I can't deny that. And Crash Town was my ideal YGO. Take Yusei and Kiryu out of Crash Town and replace them with original characters. That right there is a solid fucking six-episode mini-series.

At current, ARC-V would be dead in the middle, I think or maybe below DM. Not sure. Also likely to change by the end.

Biggest takeaway is this: For me, YGO is at its best when its being as ridiculous and nonsensical as possible. And despite that, it can still very easily pull of emotional moments and solid storytelling.

Now, if we're talking about the manga, I haven't fully read any of them except for GX. And the GX manga is one of my favorite things ever. Not YGO things. Things. Period.

GX manga > Cheese

"There are as many truths out there as there are people to tell them. Perhaps it's best simply to choose the truth with which you are most comfortable."
~ Knoll, Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones

4. 5D's - 5D's was also a mess. But unlike GX, it didn't start as a mess and was actively trying to NOT be a mess. And it failed at that. I'm aware of the behind-the-scenes stuff, but that does not change the end result. To be clear though, I love 5D's. I just don't love it the least of all YGO. The Fortune Cup probably is still the best arc YGO has ever had, I can't deny that. And Crash Town was my ideal YGO. Take Yusei and Kiryu out of Crash Town and replace them with original characters. That right there is a solid fucking six-episode mini-series.

Fortune Cup? Do you mean Dark Signers Arc? Fortune Cup is one of my least favorite arc's because Yusei was pretty much the only one to duel. EVERYONE had awesome duels during the dark signers arc, and the Leo/Luna tag team should've been like that the entire series.

And Crash Town was my ideal YGO. Take Yusei and Kiryu out of Crash Town and replace them with original characters. That right there is a solid fucking six-episode mini-series.

Fucking. Genius.
#CheeseforWriter

Biggest takeaway is this: For me, YGO is at its best when its being as ridiculous and nonsensical as possible. And despite that, it can still very easily pull of emotional moments and solid storytelling.

would explain why our lists are almost opposites, I prefer the more serious tone's. Arc V hits right at home on that one. silly, but extremely serious when you actually stop and think about it. a little Too serious at times though....

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Originally Posted by Baconator

Fortune Cup? Do you mean Dark Signers Arc? Fortune Cup is one of my least favorite arc's because Yusei was pretty much the only one to duel. EVERYONE had awesome duels during the dark signers arc, and the Leo/Luna tag team should've been like that the entire series.

well the MC getting more duels (and the way the tourny was setup means the winner of it naturally appears more) is to be expected. the Fortune cup is easily one of the best written arcs ever IMO.

Yusei at the start of the series was actually a really interesting character, so I didn't really mind him dueling so much. He did not stay that way and ends up being probably the most boring YGO character by the end, for me.

"There are as many truths out there as there are people to tell them. Perhaps it's best simply to choose the truth with which you are most comfortable."
~ Knoll, Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones

Vector said that he had regained his memories before that, he had planned to trick everyone using them beforehand. The fact remains that he was certainly more unstable than usual, because he realized he used to be a good guy. It was in character for him to try to drag Yuma with him, which is what he did, but upon the realization that Yuma is willing to die for "Ray", and still considers him his friend, it makes sense that Vector decided not to kill him, because he was kind of a mess, and was trying to decide whether he was Vector or Ray. Yuma's actions just made him decide more quickly.

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Is "Antagonist is future protagonist" really done to death? I've never seen it before.

Maybe to death was a little too much but almost everytime the future has something to do with the plot,it turns out the antogonist is the main character of the future and in the few times its not the protagonist its one of the other main characters.

Originally Posted by Cheesedude

This thread seems to be specifically talking about the anime only, so I'll do that first:

1. ZEXAL - Surprising absolutely no one, ZEXAL is my favorite. I think many of you have seen my spiel before, so I'll be brief. I can't judge ZEXAL as anything less than my favorite when it moved to tears in the last arc multiple times. Nothing in the anime barring the Ceremonial Battle in DM has ever done that otherwise.

2. GX - GX was an absolute fucking mess. Very little of it made any sense whatsoever. And I love every moment of it. The writers clearly had no plan from the start and were just throwing stuff at the wall. Hit or miss, it was entertaining and without it, there is 0 chance I'd be into YGO at all. GX brought me back into the fandom. Twice. The second time, thankfully, was in time for ZEXAL.

3. DM - DM is good, yeah. I actually have a LOT of complains about it, some of which can't be counted because of the early installment weirdness. But it still has its charms. DM is of course how I got into YGO in the first place, but as I said, it was GX that drew be back in and kept me around.

4. 5D's - 5D's was also a mess. But unlike GX, it didn't start as a mess and was actively trying to NOT be a mess. And it failed at that. I'm aware of the behind-the-scenes stuff, but that does not change the end result. To be clear though, I love 5D's. I just don't love it the least of all YGO. The Fortune Cup probably is still the best arc YGO has ever had, I can't deny that. And Crash Town was my ideal YGO. Take Yusei and Kiryu out of Crash Town and replace them with original characters. That right there is a solid fucking six-episode mini-series.

At current, ARC-V would be dead in the middle, I think or maybe below DM. Not sure. Also likely to change by the end.

Biggest takeaway is this: For me, YGO is at its best when its being as ridiculous and nonsensical as possible. And despite that, it can still very easily pull of emotional moments and solid storytelling.

Now, if we're talking about the manga, I haven't fully read any of them except for GX. And the GX manga is one of my favorite things ever. Not YGO things. Things. Period.

GX manga > Cheese

Yeah we are talking about the anime.To be honest since i have seen you praise zexal out of nowhere i was wondering why you like it so much,so thats why its your best because it moved you to tears?Judging from your ranking you seem to like light hearted series a lot.Is other any other reason you like it so much?To be honest so far King has give me the most valid reasons why would someone rank Zexal so high(not only in this thread but from other discussions as well)as still some people say only because they made them cry and i wonder what excactly what is so emotianal as i was not moved when i watched it(maybe because i predicted that they would redo every bad thing as soon as numeron code was mentioned and it turns out i was right,taking away everything that was serious).

As for me Zexal was the first yugioh series(from DM i did not remember anything apart from the guy with the weird hair was named yugi) i watched full(and it was in sub),don't get me wrong i do not dislike zexal(despite being the lowest in my list),i found it enjoyable and it had some good points but for me those few good points(especially considering that everyone turns good and returns alive) were not that worth it and the series only served me in appreciating the other ones more.

The reason i rank DM and 5Ds as my favourites is because apart from the fact that they have the best duels out of any series so far and follow a serious plotline,that also if we think subjectively they are still the best series yugioh has to offer so far.

Yusei at the start of the series was actually a really interesting character, so I didn't really mind him dueling so much. He did not stay that way and ends up being probably the most boring YGO character by the end, for me.

yeah as it went on he became more ....bland. Stoic invincible Hero who never loses. Made nice foil for Jack though

Yeah we are talking about the anime.To be honest since i have seen you praise zexal out of nowhere i was wondering why you like it so much,so thats why its your best because it moved you to tears?Judging from your ranking you seem to like light hearted series a lot.Is other any other reason you like it so much?To be honest so far King has give me the most valid reasons why would someone rank Zexal so high(not only in this thread but from other discussions as well)as still some people say only because they made them cry and i wonder what excactly what is so emotianal as i was not moved when i watched it(maybe because i predicted that they would redo every bad thing as soon as numeron code was mentioned and it turns out i was right,taking away everything that was serious).

Disclaimer: This post is a combination of posts I've made in the past on NAC and Disqis. Its also really long.

The plot built off of itself. The existence of the Barian World was forshadowed in EPISODE 19. They dropped more hints about it throughout ZEXAL I before it was properly introduced in ZEXAL II. That's good writing, especially when you compare it to "past life robot Illuminati from the future".

I found Yuma to be a refreshing spin on a YGO protagonist. Having him be not only bad, but TERRIBLE at the game was pretty cool. Watching him improve over the course of the series was gratifying. It also led to some nice moments like his loss to Shark in episode 10. It showed they really were taking a different tact this time. I keep picking on 5D's, but its the best comparison: This was far more compelling for me than Yusei "Never loses ever" Fudo. Even with the "he can't lose because Astral will die" thing shoved in, he still had a fair amount of losses. That kept things unpredictable.

I won't claim the Duel writing was good, but I must say it was much better in ZEXAL I. Not just at the start with Yuma using Leviathan Dragon, but there some Duels where there was no Xyz until turn 5 or so, which is unheard of later. ZEXAL II took ace card syndrome and blew it out of the water, which is my main complaint.

The first arc of ZEXAL was slow, but once it got going I was hooked. The WDC was similarly slow, but it was nice to see Yuma develop in a more casual setting before the shit hit the fan. The debut of the Tron Family and their plotline with Shark carried it along for me.

The WDC finals were really enjoyable, the BS duel fields aside. Tron vs. Kite was probably my favorite ZEXAL Duel, especially because it was hard to guess who would win. It was actually up in the air.

I felt like the first arc of ZEXAL II was pretty slow, just like ZEXAL I. However, I really did like Girag. He was good for comic relief but showed later on that he wasn't just a joke. He would have smashed Yuma had Rei not been there. Speaking of Rei, the reveal with Vector is probably my favorite moment in any YGO series and Vector truly did define the rest of the show for some. Alito's debut (particularly his debut episode only theme song) hooked me back in as well. The second arc of ZEXAL II had the story take very interesting turns with the Barians, which kept me interested, along with Dark Mist's reappearance.

Finally, the last arc was amazing. I loved Shark's turn here. I wasn't sold on it at first, but once it was done, I had much more respect for how they pulled it off. Kite's death was oddly poignant (especially considering how little I really cared for Kite). Similarly, they managed to get me to care about Mizael...in the episode where he died. I found him tremendously boring before that (though that also gave us the classic Seventh One moment, so I suppose I can't complain). A lot of the last arc's strength lies in the voice acting. Yuma's gets tremendous credit here. Every time he cried (which was like every other episode), the emotion he managed to put into it was heartbreaking. In the same vein, the absolutely crazed sounding voice Nasch's voice actor pulled off when Beyond the Hope destroyed Barian was fantastic.

Shining Draw took some serious fucking balls to write in. And I loved it. YGO reached the point of self-parody. For the kids, Shining Draw was a neat superpower that was used sometimes. I think it was also intended to be a send-up to older fans that basically says "yeah, this show is ridiculous and we all know that, so screw it, we're going all-in". It was good to them poking fun at themselves. Let's face it, every Duelist ever has used Shining Draw every turn, there just weren't flashy lights and all caps screaming to accompany it.

Yuma gets hate for not using Numbers, but don't tell me Yusei used his monsters more effectively. Aside from Junk and Nitro Warriors, he rarely used anything more than once or twice. He relied much less on Stardust at first, but by the WRGP he had developed a disorder that forced him to Summon it as early on and as often as possible. I mean Christ, Junk Archer and Turbo Warrior would both be outs to the Meklord Emperors, but he doesn't use them because plot. Much the same with Yuma. Some of the Numbers would be ways out of situations, but he doesn't use them because plot.

The complains about it "stealing" from DM also struck me as odd. It reminds me of that commercial where Diet Coke tries to sue Coke One. Those references were there for two reasons: To re-tell the basic premise of DM for a new generation and as neat send-ups for older fans like us.

Are there things I would change about ZEXAL? Hell yes. It could have been so much better. But every single YGO series could have been so much better. No series ever lives up to its full potential and that's perfectly alright. So although I would have preferred ZEXAL to have been done differently, I still thought it was fantastic. I didn't imagine it would unseat GX as my favorite, but it did by quite a bit. It was consistently entertaining throughout (sometimes it was an entertaining masterpiece, sometimes it was an entertaining trainwreck). That's more than I can say for DM (where they four-to-five episode long duels grew tiring), GX (where the plot vanished altogether at points) and 5D's (which had filler that made me want to gouge my eyes out).

"There are as many truths out there as there are people to tell them. Perhaps it's best simply to choose the truth with which you are most comfortable."
~ Knoll, Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones

Disclaimer: This post is a combination of posts I've made in the past on NAC and Disqis. Its also really long.

The plot built off of itself. The existence of the Barian World was forshadowed in EPISODE 19. They dropped more hints about it throughout ZEXAL I before it was properly introduced in ZEXAL II. That's good writing, especially when you compare it to "past life robot Illuminati from the future".

I found Yuma to be a refreshing spin on a YGO protagonist. Having him be not only bad, but TERRIBLE at the game was pretty cool. Watching him improve over the course of the series was gratifying. It also led to some nice moments like his loss to Shark in episode 10. It showed they really were taking a different tact this time. I keep picking on 5D's, but its the best comparison: This was far more compelling for me than Yusei "Never loses ever" Fudo. Even with the "he can't lose because Astral will die" thing shoved in, he still had a fair amount of losses. That kept things unpredictable.

I won't claim the Duel writing was good, but I must say it was much better in ZEXAL I. Not just at the start with Yuma using Leviathan Dragon, but there some Duels where there was no Xyz until turn 5 or so, which is unheard of later. ZEXAL II took ace card syndrome and blew it out of the water, which is my main complaint.

The first arc of ZEXAL was slow, but once it got going I was hooked. The WDC was similarly slow, but it was nice to see Yuma develop in a more casual setting before the shit hit the fan. The debut of the Tron Family and their plotline with Shark carried it along for me.

The WDC finals were really enjoyable, the BS duel fields aside. Tron vs. Kite was probably my favorite ZEXAL Duel, especially because it was hard to guess who would win. It was actually up in the air.

I felt like the first arc of ZEXAL II was pretty slow, just like ZEXAL I. However, I really did like Girag. He was good for comic relief but showed later on that he wasn't just a joke. He would have smashed Yuma had Rei not been there. Speaking of Rei, the reveal with Vector is probably my favorite moment in any YGO series and Vector truly did define the rest of the show for some. Alito's debut (particularly his debut episode only theme song) hooked me back in as well. The second arc of ZEXAL II had the story take very interesting turns with the Barians, which kept me interested, along with Dark Mist's reappearance.

Finally, the last arc was amazing. I loved Shark's turn here. I wasn't sold on it at first, but once it was done, I had much more respect for how they pulled it off. Kite's death was oddly poignant (especially considering how little I really cared for Kite). Similarly, they managed to get me to care about Mizael...in the episode where he died. I found him tremendously boring before that (though that also gave us the classic Seventh One moment, so I suppose I can't complain). A lot of the last arc's strength lies in the voice acting. Yuma's gets tremendous credit here. Every time he cried (which was like every other episode), the emotion he managed to put into it was heartbreaking. In the same vein, the absolutely crazed sounding voice Nasch's voice actor pulled off when Beyond the Hope destroyed Barian was fantastic.

Shining Draw took some serious fucking balls to write in. And I loved it. YGO reached the point of self-parody. For the kids, Shining Draw was a neat superpower that was used sometimes. I think it was also intended to be a send-up to older fans that basically says "yeah, this show is ridiculous and we all know that, so screw it, we're going all-in". It was good to them poking fun at themselves. Let's face it, every Duelist ever has used Shining Draw every turn, there just weren't flashy lights and all caps screaming to accompany it.

Yuma gets hate for not using Numbers, but don't tell me Yusei used his monsters more effectively. Aside from Junk and Nitro Warriors, he rarely used anything more than once or twice. He relied much less on Stardust at first, but by the WRGP he had developed a disorder that forced him to Summon it as early on and as often as possible. I mean Christ, Junk Archer and Turbo Warrior would both be outs to the Meklord Emperors, but he doesn't use them because plot. Much the same with Yuma. Some of the Numbers would be ways out of situations, but he doesn't use them because plot.

The complains about it "stealing" from DM also struck me as odd. It reminds me of that commercial where Diet Coke tries to sue Coke One. Those references were there for two reasons: To re-tell the basic premise of DM for a new generation and as neat send-ups for older fans like us.

Are there things I would change about ZEXAL? Hell yes. It could have been so much better. But every single YGO series could have been so much better. No series ever lives up to its full potential and that's perfectly alright. So although I would have preferred ZEXAL to have been done differently, I still thought it was fantastic. I didn't imagine it would unseat GX as my favorite, but it did by quite a bit. It was consistently entertaining throughout (sometimes it was an entertaining masterpiece, sometimes it was an entertaining trainwreck). That's more than I can say for DM (where they four-to-five episode long duels grew tiring), GX (where the plot vanished altogether at points) and 5D's (which had filler that made me want to gouge my eyes out).

Disclaimer:I don't mind,if we don't make long posts in discussions like these when would we?

Yiliaster was foreshadowed in the first arc as well(don't remember the excact episode but it was)."past life robot Illuminati from the future" it certainly does not seem to me much less random than past life humans aliens now from another world.

Having a beginner as a protagonist was a great concept that failled horribly,that is a good description of Yuma(joey was a good example of a beginner done correctly but he was deutoratagonist not a protagonist sadly).He was not only generic in personality but stayed generic till the end.When you consider that he had like 40+duels with Tetso and still did not know the very very basics and then you make him somehow win almost all of his duels it makes his wins even more questionable than Mary Sue Yusei.Even when he was suposed to learn something he forgets it the next episode,for example him losing to Shark and his tag duel with him was suposed to teach him not to rely much on the numbers especially hope and guess what he does in the rest of the series?Him losing non important duels does not make it unpredictable(especially when he was suposed to learn from them like his loss against Shark i just mentioned),if anything it shows how the writers portray Yuma as an inferior duelist to Kaito and Shark and he somehow wins while they die.

Yeah the duels were much better in the first arc,remember when his opponents had an actual strategy instead of just sitting on their one and only boss monsters?

As for Kite vs Tron it was obvious Tron was gonna win since he was the main antagonist in this arc.Yuma vs Tron was awesome even with the field rule but they went to their boss monster really fast,if only they continued the number's battle a little longer this duel would have been one of my favourites in the whole yugioh series and my favourite(which is now)in zexal.

Yeah the beggining of Zexal II had too many fillers as well.The reason Yuma had trouble against Girag was because he was handicapping him by trying to protect Ray(who was misplaying on purpose),not to mention due to the early damage done to him because he tried to protect him Astral was knocked out,thus sealing Zexal.Vector was awesome apart from his last second out of character turn around.

Kite's death was done really well if not for the fact lol Numeron Code making the fact that he had a normal death pointless to begin with.

As for Shinning Draw i seriously doubt that was the case.The reason it was implemented was that due to the fact that the concept excisted the writers could be as lazy as they want with the duel scripts and as Zexal 2 showed they abused the hell out of it,which was one of the many factor of the quality drop of the duels in this arc.Its not like Zexal did not have bs topdecks(just like all yugioh series had)but it was shining draw on top of that as a tool for the writers to get even more lazy with the duels.

He used them more effectievely in the second half than yuma did in his own second half,and the same goes for their first half comparrison,the second half had way too much Stardust but even so it was not as bad(as bad in comparrison to zexal,on its own it was pretty bad) as Zexal 2 case.Meklord in the anime are parts and the main part is protected from the others and there is the fact that Archer even in the anime it removed them till the end phase making him pointless,turbo while it has some protection the fact that the meklord parts can be upgraded and surpass its attack right away make him pointless as well.

Of course no series is perfect.But Zexal had great conceps and failled miserably,the plot was pretty good but the concept of war fell out quite flat when everybody turns good and returns alive,Dm had like 3-4 4 episode duels but it had a lot of 3 part duels that could have been easily 2 part as it had slow pacing in the arcs that were based on the manga ones(most zexal's episodes consisted of yuma and friends screwing around in the 15 out of 20 minutes of the episode and then the duel in the last 5 making a 2 part),Gx i think most people know it has the least plot consistency of all series.Question:5Ds filler were unbearable for you but not zexal's?Which were more and had even less of a point then the 5D'S ones?