I figured it may be appropriate to start a new thread rather than posting in the Black Treasure thread.

So far they're showing a lot of potential, but haven't surpassed the BTs yet.

The OA3s were very interesting with them, really cleaned up the presentation, but made things slightly lean by comparison compared to my VR75 (purple glowing regs) which is the opposite of what I expected.

Gopher, Are your purple glowing regulators VR-75? If so I think they are they are OA3s. And are they ST coke bottle shaped?

I have noticed that the straight VRs like the OA3 I got from you, are much more open/cleaner than STs, the STs being much softer, rounder and darker...perhaps you could say warmer. I have a pair of straight OC3s that are very clean as well, whereas all my ST shaped tubes are warm.

Now that my JJ's are pretty much broken in, I have some observatiions compared to the Treasures.

Initially, I couldn't put my finger on what I liked so much about the JJ's. After significant listening, I think I have figured it out.

The Treasures are an excellent tube. Linear, clean and polite. This is exactly what I DIDN'T like about them. I want my tube amp to SOUND like a tube amp with the voluptuousness that only tubes can produce.

I found the Treasures to be somewhat sterile in overall presentation. Where the JJ's have a fully developed bottom end, the Treasures go as deep but without the energy. The JJ's are at least as extended on the top as the Treasures, but they seem to produce the "glow" in the highs the Treasures lack. It is in the mids that I hear the greatest difference. The Treasures are smooth and detailed throughout the mids. Where I find them lacking is not putting "flesh" on the images. The JJ's just sound more real to me. I find the JJ's give me more of what I expect from a tube amp, that reach out and touch palpability.

I do not have enough experience with JJ tubes to comment about their long term reliability. Since these are part of a series of new tubes for them (introduced in 2010), I will say there have been no indications of any reliability problems so far. I will be optimistic and say I do not expect to have any problems.

Interesting, and thanks for your impressions. will here had a failure of a tube. My quad shipped to me today so I'll have some to try this weekend or early next week. Good listening ahead by all accounts.

My JJs arrived. Nice looking tubes. I just have a very little bit of time on them, but very powerful sounding tubes. My Winged Cs may have been a bit more tired than I thought. Anyway, I'm playing some very early jazz ('twenties stuff by the California Ramblers, Charleston Chasers, and Miff Mole and Red Nichols groups) as I tend to be less focused on sonics when these are playing and so I can get some time on the tubes today.

I'm way too impatient for these things. They were sounding dead, lacking drive and excitment today--and, after the wife agreed things weren't sounding good, I plucked them again in favor of the BTs. Really glad about the auto-biasing!

I have about 80 hours on mine, most with the National 7DJ8s, and maybe 1/3 of that was the Esoteric break in CD.

Lately I had been listening to the very linear, open and extended cryo'd Ruby fat bottle EL34s (Shuguang), and with them I was liking some relatively warm Mullard 6922 pulls from Partsconnexion.

With the Mullards, when I just stuck in the JJs, the open and textural warmth the Rubys allowed them to reveal turned to a thickish, veiled quality. Some macro detail remained, but micro detail got pretty much squashed and the low mids down became a thuddy.

I stuck in some new Ei/Philips 7DJ8s, changed from straight OA3s to straight OC3s, chilled down the gain on the Zstage a little, and beauty filled the room. Wetter, texture, body and warmth without veils, extension and what I think of as the really cool thing about this tube....that big tube sound...something about the dynamic tightness of the hits, be they cymbals, drums or a string bass, and then the easy transition from body to natural ambient information. It sounds really good!

So I think I will have no problem completing the break in on these tubes now. Trouble so far in my evaluation of the tube, they are very finicky as to who they play well with. But I think they are extremely promising.

Gopher, I think you should get good sound from them with your National 7DJ8s, it just may take longer than you or I like to get there. I wonder too. Does the breakin CD work on tubes at low volumes like it would on high volumes?

Well my first impression with these tubes in there with my National 7DJ8s, RCA 5u4gs (1954) and the picture power regs was very positive, so I suspect it the quad will eventually make its way back there--I just hate to break in during my critical listening time. I have a 15 month old son who monopolizes my living room when awake and a wife to compete with when he isn't so for the hour or so I get to listen critically, I don't like 'hearing potential' I just want to be transported.

I'm not sure how the Isotek works in regards to tubes and the volume of the music playing, but I generally use pretty low volume as my listening room shares a wall with the master bedroom... I figure its ATLEAST as effective as actual music.

Right now I've got a few variables changed from my normal listening arrangement. I'm using my Shuguang Black Treasure 6CA7s with the National 7DJ8s, RCA 5u4gs, and straight bottle OA3s, and this is being fed by a Dodd buffer with a 6H30-DR tube from the 1980s.

I think you are on it with the Isotek/Esoteric CD as is...better quiet all night than without and probably considerably better than music since it is designed specifically for fast burnin, covering a huge range of sounds and attacks to flex the system. When I come home after several hours of it playing, the sound seems more improved than several hours of music by quite a bit. Subjective I know, but my impression. I just assume that using it (or music) at various volumes would work the tubes and all else differently, and ultimately better with variety of power and push. But you do what you can.

Looks like the tube companies or vendors could come up with a good, efficient burnin system and charge a premium for ready to go tubes for us freaks with very revealing systems.

An excellent point indeed. These are the only tube amps I have had since I was a kid, so I take the ease of rolling for granted. Especially with new tubes or a new piece of gear, I will roll every day at times, and sometimes several times in a day in looking for that just right synergy/signature. So easy!

Well, I have about 17 hours of use on these and I like them. Robust and have that classic chunkiness. Glad I ordered them. Sweeter in the treble by a hair than the Winged Cs. I also like them better than the Tungsol reissues.

I'd say 70 or more. I have about 90 to 100 on mine. They're good. Different than the Winged Cs, seem to have less an open midrange, and perhaps a less warm bass. Top end is very nice. I seem to hear a bit less dynamic range.

Definitely great tubes for the price so far, and none of them have "misbehaved."

I have 150 or so on mine and they seem to be becoming pretty clarified with all the little oddities sorted out, with even presentation and articulation across the spectrum. And a fairly impressive dynamic range, so I am guessing yours may not quite be there yet Lon. I sort of lost track on mine at roughly 130, so they were getting pretty even by then, but I think they subtly improving now and guess they will continue for a while. They are big heavy construction.

Also, I can't imagine that Steve would sell the Torii with them if the Hazen Grid Mod was not functional with them.

Well, these really haven't changed in about five days of use so I'd say they're broken in. I still feel that they're a smidgeon less dynamic, maybe a bit less "fast" than the Winged Cs, but also present just a smidgeon more of of a classic tube sound which I'm taking these days as a plus. Like these tubes, and the price is really right. I've had no problem at all with any one of my quad.

I put the Winged Cs back in for comparison. I think the Winged Cs will stay in for a while. Ironically the Cs make the Torii sound less like a tube amp, but fantastic. The bass is better. The midrange is so open it's as if you can see way deeply into the music, less so with the JJs. And "faster" and a touch more dynamic than the JJs. Both are great choices, and I can see why given that Cs are harder to find these days Steve has gone with the JJs stock.

After making that comparison I haven't been completely happy with the JJs. Thanks to a sale of power cords to Greg and Greg (thanks guys, cords are packaged and about to go in the mail) I ordered a "burned in for stability" set from Antique Electronic Supply.

Though at times I have enjoyed the winged Cs, I have never completely warmed up to them. I think they are nice tubes, but in my system, though they have a great open midrange quality, they have a leanness in the mids-mids that seems off balance with the warmness from the very low mids down. To me, there is a bit of unevenness that I just can't get used to with most tube sets I like.

But what we put any tube with is such a huge part of the story, and since I like more open and dynamic input tubes, they tend to bring out this unevenness, where some warmish input tubes balance nicely with the Winged C. Then there is how the rectifiers and VR balance...too many variables to blame or praise one tube easily.

I have found the JJ 6AC7 a bit dark and flat with warmer inputs, but with a couple different 7DJ8s, the RCA OA3-ST, and 40s RCA 5U4G-STs (more open than the 50/60s), they are sounding extremely good in this system....warm and textural, good body without a sense of excess density, smooth, dynamic and open.

For me, I think they are just particular as to what they work really well with. At the moment, with this set, my system has never sounded better. It is odd though. I have been playing around with different tubes to work with the JJs for a couple weeks, and this set did not quite occur to me while just thinking about the individual tube characters, so I came by it by the back door so to speak. That magical synergy is there though and it is really beautiful. I have no Treasures to compare.

Well, there are so many variables, and room and personal taste and the very way we individually perceive music are important factors. And what we are shooting for (I mean I have one audiophile friend whose goal is to have dozens of great great sounding recordings that shine whereas I seek a balance that favors thousands of varied recordings). I did try a few different tube rollings but still never quite got past that sort of "congestion" that the JJs brought, made the Torii sound like a sixties tube amp, not the sound I'm used to or going for. And I'm sold on the 6N1P input, none of the other input types quite do it for me, and the Cs may have a certain compatibility with that tube type, that the JJs don't (for my purposes at least).

I'd say of the three tube types I've used in the Mk III as output the Cs are my favorite, then the JJs, then a quad of Tungsol croy'd. Having rescued my previous quad and now that I have a new quad of Cs on the way I have great sound for more than a year ahead.

Next time I experiment I'm going to try Mullard reissues; I've used two in my Integrated and they were awesome in that application.

I did try a few different tube rollings but still never quite got past that sort of "congestion" that the Cs brought, made the Torii sound like a sixties tube amp, not the sound I'm used to or going for.

Lon, Are you referring the JJ's here? I would not have thought of "congestion" as a term to describe the Cs, though I could see it as a descriptor for the JJ 6AC7 with certain tube sets. And I agree about room...when I refer to system, I consider the room part of it since room is so much of our sound.

From my experiments with various tubes and tube types, I suspect Datman likes the tube so much because he had a synergistic combo that sings, as did I finally. I believe he uses National 7DJ8s with his, and maybe RCA 5U4G-STs, but I can't recall exactly, and then there is everything else in the system. Part of what finally brought mine out was a little cable/AC component "rolling" for me. I found them compelling in general, but being a bit dense and dark they did not easily fit my ultimate tastes until I put them with 7DJ8s which opened them up, makng them more spacious, and increasing the sense of dynamics. Then I found much more potential with the tube, but did not get there until I got that just right combo. I am actually using some Zaerix labeled 7DJ8s. So I think it is sort of a quirky tube, at least in terms of getting the ultimate sound I like. I mean, for my tastes, with the 60's sort of tubular sound of the JJs, I would never have thought to use my OA3-STs, them being warmer VRs....but they somehow contributed to the friendly spaciousness this particular tube set brought. Got me.....

This makes me wonder....since Steve changed over to them in the Torii, it would be interesting to try the bright/articulate Ruby 5U4Gs and see what those do with the JJs. I wonder if they might not act somewhat like the 7DJ8s, making the JJs more spacious???

Yegads I hate the sound of those Rubys in any tube set I've ever tried, they're permanently banished from my Torii! I did try different OA3, OB3, and OC3 tubes with the JJs. . . the Cs are just better for my purposes. With the JJs I have a good back up pair that will be suitable between sets of Cs, that's how I look at it now.

I haven't tried the 7DJ8s but I've tried so many input tubes over the year and always come back to the 6N1P. I'd use the 6N2P if I could but they just aren't right for this amp. The 6N1P is I think essential to my goal of getting a tube set that works over the scope of my collection. Already I've been doing too much tube-rolling lately and getting that nervous feeling that I get from that which is anathema to relaxing and listening for me, so I'm happy with what I'm now using: 6N1P, remarkable straight shoulder RCA 5U4G (this one set trounces even others that seem identical), RCA straight shoulder OA3, the Raytheon VR75s it shipped with and the Winged Cs. It seems to work for my intents, and I should just stick with it and quit fidgeting.

I think speakers are a big determinant too. I know I'd settle on a tube change if I brought the HR-1s out again. Part of why I'm not planning to for some time. This tube-rolling gets to me after a while. Interferes with my image of myself as a music lover first.

Yes, I tried the Ruby 5U4G with my current set and after warm up, took it back out fairly rapidly. Seemed kind of empty by comparison with the 40s RCA 5U4Gs....at least with this set.

Glad you have the tube combo that just keeps on keeping on! I envy you with your straight RCA OA3s (I can't find any!) and those particular straight 5U4Gs. And the 6N1Ps I have tried are quite variable too....which to get???? What a labyrinth it can become....

Datman, Thanks for the Svetlana Black plate clarification. Have you compared them to anything else? I heard some folks say they like them, but never heard just what makes their sound good.

I look forward to your O*3 exploration. I like having choices there and wish I could find more availability on the straight bottle tubes.

I noticed likewise with the JJs, that the impedance switch in particular can bring out some cool depth and clarification, but I always seem to end back at 4 ohm and neutral bias. I will have to be more diligent in leaving it set at 8 ohms for a while and adjust knobs around it. Thanks for the tip.

I actually bought the Svetlana 5U4's when I first got my Torii. One of the supplied 5U4's literally came apart on me (oh, the joy of Chinese tubes). I went out and found the best 5U4 I could and the Svetlana's were it.

My amp is configured as 8/16 ohms. Unfortunately, i don't know which switch position is which. When I started I had the switch TOWARD the transformers. Now it is AWAY from the transformers. This will probably change once I start playing with 0*3 tubes.

That's my understanding as well, I believe in the "manual" Steve states that the lowest ohm setting is in the front.

I've tried out the JJs in my SE34 Monoblock amps in my bedroom system. A very good fit with 6N1P input tubes. Nice and warm with moments of surprising 3D. Really happy with that system. All my amps sound good in there, but the Monoblocks have a magic something going on. I always had problems getting just the right bass out of them, but the highs and mids are gorgeous. The JJs help me get the bass closer.

And now the JJs are in my Torii Mk II amp in the second system and sounding really good. I had my gal pal helping me out evaluating the sound of the different amps in my second system. This time she told me she likes the sound of the Torii Mk II best, and this morning we both heard a fine example of why, listening to a Julio Iglesias cd there was a moment of holographic beauty that we both noticed. The Monoblocks have a certain sweetness and smoothness that I love in that system, but man, there's nothing like the accuracy and control of a Torii to really bring out imaging and positioning of instruments, even when the speakers are far from optimally placed.

So the JJs so impressed me again in that system that I took them out and put them in the Torii Mk III in the main system. And still, I prefer the Winged Cs immediately. There's just an openness to the Cs that makes the JJs sound as if they're compressing the imaging and instrument positioning. And at the same time there's a real vitality that is sparkling the music forward, which is not my favorite posiiton. And this holds up through the different tube complements at hand. So. . . darn. I'm stuck with using the expensive Winged Cs! ;)

My Torii will come with the JJ6CA7's. I plan to have on hand the Winged C's. Compared to the Shuguang Treasures, they are a bargain. I will resist putting the C's in my new Amp until it is sufficiently burned in and I improve the Rectifiers from Ruby's and get a handle on the signature of the Amp. My journey begins soon and I have all these great posts from you guys to learn from and listen.

Different tube, but the original SV83 tubes Steve created his Pentodes run in Triode Amps are still my favorite output tubes. I don't like any EL84's compared to the SV83 Svetlana's. I am glad I have a nice stash of them.

The original Svetlana Tubes (SV83 & EL34 Winged C's) made in St. Petersburg (I refuse to have ever said Lenengrad during the time of the USSR) are tubes to be cherished from the 80's production and early 90's. Then Reflector muddied the water's. Stone

I'm with you Stone. Those were great runs of tubes, and they've been an integral part of the Decware experience for me.

Hey the JJs may be just the thing for you and your room(s). I'm convinced that the room and the interaction of the speaker is one of the hugest parts of the equation. I find tubes that I don't really love in a machine sound so lovely in the same machine in another room, with the same or different speakers. Wild, and makes all recommendations and reviews very problematic.

The JJs have really impressed me with their quiet and steady operation and in one amp they have given me three dimensional moments. So here's hoping you love them. They're a real bargain.

Final take? The JJ 6CA7s are a bargain. I have two quads as backups for that time in the future when tubes cannot be gotten [heaven forbid], and because they are a bargain at today's NOS prices. But I still prefer the Treasures. Never ran the JJ EL34s that came with the Torii, but the 6CA7 is quite good, even considering I did not break the set in I tried for more than about 25 hours before listening.

I've been using the JJs for a few weeks now, and I like them more or am used to them more. They're definitely a bargain. In comparison to the Winged Cs I've mainly used, my take is that they both are a shade on either side of a "neutral" mid-point, the JJs being a bit warmer and the Cs with a bit more sharpness.