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Weiyan, you may have discussed this before but I am too lazy to go back though the thread: What is the CHAS method and sequence you use for tuning the temperament octave - 5ths, 4ths RBI checks etc etc?

Weiyan, you may have discussed this before but I am too lazy to go back though the thread: What is the CHAS method and sequence you use for tuning the temperament octave - 5ths, 4ths RBI checks etc etc?

Chris Leslie, a joined this thread years after the starting of this thread.

The following video of yours was posted in the "Unison Tuning" thread. Let's see:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan

McMorro's all tuning is unison is enlightenment. I tried to tune the octave and two 4th 5th intervals. It seems have friction at some point. Not sure is psychological effect.

The octave not confirmed is too wide or too narrow. The intervals not confirm tempered in right direction, non the beat rate.

Regards,Weiyan

First, you flatten A3... good;- then you raise A3... pass the spot (0:11)... go sharp... make the pin turn CW at its bottom... good;- then you flatten A3 towards the spot(*) and pass the spot (0:14)... this move is too fast, perhaps the pin turned again Anti-CW, no good (you already know);

(*)going towards the spot you must play and follow the beat rate, you must adhere to the speed of the beat, never loose contact;

at 0:15 A3 is about 3 bps flat; at 0:24 you slow the beat down, you realise the pin is not charged and at 0:27 you raise A3 again... good; in between 0:15 and 0:24/0:27 nothing really happens, avoid that playing for nothing, save time; at 0:30 you get close to the spot (*);at 0:32 you hear about 1.5 bps (was A3 too flat or too sharp? (*)), at 0:34 the beat slows down and at 0:36 you move on A3-E4...

In general, after sharpening the pitch, while charging the pin (0:29), try to use both fingers and wrist, this increases your sensitivity and control onto the hammer;

while charging the pin, relate the force, the energy, the beat rate and your playing, so that you can feel, hear and control "how" the beat relates to the charge;the force/energy onto the hammer should be progressive, less energy to take away the CW torque, more energy to establish the Anti-CW charge; remember that also some pin-bending occours, a slower movement will let you feel that better.

A3-E5 (edit: A3-E4)

You play 6 times before you actually start raising the pitch; avoid that, save noise;at 0:45 you raise the pitch... good... you hear the spot at 0:46 and feel the pin's torsion... very very good!! this is how you evaluate how-much "over-raise";at 0:46/47 you over-raise E4 and make the pin turn at its bottom... very good;at 0:49 you start lowering the pitch and charging the pin;between 0:50 and 0:53 you do not play, this is wrong and this is where you can improve (*): follow the beat rate while it goes down, say from 10 bps down, enjoy how the beat slows down, play in time with the beat, sing the beat in your mind, relate the (progressive) pin's charge, the energy onto the hammer and the beat, get to the spot aware of that... not abruptly.

Before going on, please let me know if the above is clear.

Regards, a.c.

Originally Posted By: Weiyan

Sorry for didn't notice there was feedback.

Alfredo,

Thank you. The explanation is very clear. Even I didn't realized what I did during the tuning session. Repeat playing without movement is due to not trusting my ear.

Hi Weiyan,

Thanks for your feedback, try to relax your ear and do Not think "trust", your ear will refine "in time"; in general, concentrate more on your (most natural) breathing and arm/body posture.

Let's go on with the "base" video/recording for some addings.

A3-E4:

at 0:59 you raise E4... good; you then go towards the spot, but... is E4 flat? Remember, while charging the pin you must (slowly) pass the (pure/just) spot, so you make sure that E4 is flat;

at 1:10 you go onto A3-D4;

when you move your hammer, try to play only one time;

at 1:15 you flatten D4... good, be more delicate, you only need to uncharge the pin, and then raise; at 1:17 you hear the spot and feel the pin, very very good!! you raise D4, good;from 1:21 to 1:24/25 you charge the pin... good, next time make that slower; follow the beat closely, how the beat slows down.. until you can count/sing the beat, while still charging the pin, get the just-spot and release the hammer, check D4 (at least) 1/bps sharp; in that video is too close to just.

Please, have a look at the Pre-sequence (linked above)... A3-E4 is very little narrow, and after A#3-F4, I tune D4-G4 (close to E4-A4, in between the two adiacent fourths), and relate C4 to G4 and F4.

Next:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan

Originally Posted By: Weiyan

This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

When you tune A3, make sure that A3-A4 is actually wide: once the A3-A4 pins are "charged", you can (delicately) exert some pression and see if the beat slows down or accelerates. This test is valid and due for any interval.

Tune E4 by relating it to both A3 and A4, you didn't do that (in the video (1:10)); you want the A3-E4-A4 relation, together with A3-D4-A4, at the beginning of the sequence, be your reference (temporarely) for continuing your procedure.

Tune D4 by relating it to both A3 and A4... Remember, it is not three intervals, A3-A4, A3-E4, A3-D4... It is "squaring five intervals", drafting their symmetric (A3-D4 Vs E4-A4) and overlapping (A3-E4 Vs D4-A4) relation, that's the meaning of the "base".

So doing, in between A3 and A4 you can rule the 4ths and 5ths (beat rate) extremities.

Thanks Alfredo. I was only wondering if Weiyan was actually doing the RBI checks during temperament setting and not afterwards.

Surely do FBI checking when available. The first available is A3-F#4 sixth, then A3-C#4, B3-G#4, B3-D4. The progressiveness of these FBI not guarantee the intonation of the tuning for all of them are depend on B3-F#4. So there is always left the gap of C4-F4, C4-G4. Analysis these gap to decide if F#4 is too high or too low.

Thanks. Keep up the good momentum with Alfredo. I would also establish a progressive sequence of M3rds, F3,A3,C#4,F4,A4, because that gives another base that works well as handles with your sequence. But that is just my preference.

I believe the inconsistancies we her are due to Weyan just gttin the felling or pin setting lately. Good pin setting make the tone more pure, it is then easier to listen for beats.So now it is taking place for you, Weyan.

You are right to work on temperament base, that first octave have to shine, it is not easy to get a feel for that.

(the standard test M3 M10 can help you at last to be sure he octave is in the good direction if you are unsure , but we take the habit to tune octaves directly, and look more in progressiveness than comparative checks that are sometime surprising (and make the ear tired sooner) Any FBI is helping to be sure of tge slow intervals and octave.

Yes ladder of M3 is easier for listening to pogressiveness, but gives no idea of the octave size, which seem to be wher the trouble is.

Even with 4 th and 5th the octave can be secured, and it is particularely necessary with Chas, due to the pivot point .

Greetings

_________________________
Professional of the profession.

I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

When you tune A3, make sure that A3-A4 is actually wide: once the A3-A4 pins are "charged", you can (delicately) exert some pression and see if the beat slows down or accelerates. This test is valid and due for any interval.

Tune E4 by relating it to both A3 and A4, you didn't do that (in the video (1:10)); you want the A3-E4-A4 relation, together with A3-D4-A4, at the beginning of the sequence, be your reference (temporarely) for continuing your procedure.

Tune D4 by relating it to both A3 and A4... Remember, it is not three intervals, A3-A4, A3-E4, A3-D4... It is "squaring five intervals", drafting their symmetric (A3-D4 Vs E4-A4) and overlapping (A3-E4 Vs D4-A4) relation, that's the meaning of the "base".

So doing, in between A3 and A4 you can rule the 4ths and 5ths (beat rate) extremities.

Before we go on, please confirm that the above is clear.

Thanks, Chris and Isaac.

Regards, a.c. .

That is how the base, i.e. five beat-rates interweaved "all in one", help me define one more fundamental interval, the tone, in this case D4-E4.

In other words, the tone is the result of precise "proportions", the beat relations I have established between five beat frequencies, strictly interlaced.

These proportions involve 2:1 (the octave), 3:2 (the fifth) and 4:3 (the fourth), and those small numbers are employed in the Chas equality: (3-Delta)=(4+s*Delta)

From these premises - interweaving all intervals (and beat progressions) inside and outside the A3-A4 octave - you are enabled to reduce approximations and choose/adopt the most convenient pre-Form, whatever the size of the piano.

The beat rate is changing after attack. Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat together has cleaner interval.

Now, try to work on fourths: for instance you can compare three fourths on the same interval, by muting the three strings of the same note in turn.

For example, tune A3-D4, D4's mid-string, D4's left string muting the other two strings, and D4's right string;

On one string (remember which), tune A3-D4 pure, one close to pure/wide, and one close to pure/narrow;

Compare those three samples by listening to one sample at the time, this may help developping both "taste" (sweet/sour) and beat rate recognizing.

Now in Italy is spring... are those lovely birds coming back at yours anytime soon?

Regards, a.c.

Edit: From your latest post: ..."...Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat together has cleaner interval."

For the time being, do not think about attack/sustain, go simply for the louder/most evident beat.

The beat rate is changing after attack. Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat has cleaner interval.

In general, considering beat rates, D4 and A4 may be both on the wrong side and, beat-wise, they would sound OK; remember always to make sure that the base-intervals are on the right side, wide octave and fourths, narrow fifths.

Much better than previous tunings; please notice that A#3-D4 is much slower than A3-C#4, and D#4-G4 and F4-A4 are sweeter than previous 3rds. These are all clear indications that some other intervals can be improved as well. Then we have to check our tuning again, and in this case we have to first check A#3, D4, D#4, G4, F4 and A4.

A#3 may be too high (in pitch) (*)D4 may be too low

D#4 may be too highG4 may be too low

F4 may be too highA4 may be too low

Let's check the sequence and map the beat rates, you would start refining the intervals that, more than others, sound wrong and/or improvable:

B3-E3 is a bit fast... check B3-D#4... and D#4-G#4, this is beatless; here you would also compare with D4-G4 and E4-A4.

You know that, if D#4 is too high, perhaps A#3 will be too high ((*) see above); if A#3-F4 is just (check fifths), F4 will be too high; check C4-G4, it beats too much... and so on.

During the sequence, remember to compare the proceeding intervals - step by step - with your base-beat-references and interlace M6ths and thirds as soon as you can. Soon you will learn to compare intervals more strictly, you will be able to tune A#3 and notice if A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 and B3-D#4 are fairly progressive, otherwise you would go back and check again all previous steps.

Next time, if you like, when you record the sequence you can play also the "already tuned" intervals, for instance:

E4-B3, play (and compare) also A3-D4B3-F#4, play (and compare) also A3-E4; play and evaluate A3-F#4F#4-C#4, play also E4-B3 and E4-A4, so you can place that fourth (and 4ths progression) more correctly; evaluate A3-C#4 etc.

Remember to be aware of your body posture, when you over-raise the pitch... be willing (in your mind) to make use of all your body.

Relax your ear, the beat will show up and tell you what to do; play together, in time with the beat, on the beat, and concentrate onto the pin: turn the pin clock-wise gently, evaluate pin torsion and bending, over-raise the pitch and charge the pin anti-clock-wise; better if you can stabilize the (temporary) pitch with a Forte blow.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

EDITThe first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.

Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

EDITThe first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.

Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Thanks for giving me news about those lovely bird singing.

Regards, a.c..

Sorry for reply late.

The thirds:

OK/slow/ok/slow/ok/slow/ok/ok/ok

fifths:ok/pure/ok/pure(seems tense)/ok/ok

fourths:ok/same as previous/ok/ok/ok/fast/pure/ok

The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning.

The difficulties:The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny. Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction.

Began yesterday morning. I wanted to sharpen hammer skill, so tune each interval and checked with Verituner. The octave style is 4:2. After tuning the temperament and base. I decided to modify the temperament to CHAS. Widen the A3-A4 first, then align the fifths and fourths with regular CHAS tuning sequence.

Today morning, checked the intervals and correct some mistakes.

Its raining this morning, so no birds singing. Some birds are singing now.

EDITThe first few stroke in the sequence is base. So no individual base sound file.

Hello Weiyan,

I have listened to the above recordings, you have improved a lot, really.

The "hair" corrections that we need to make are getting thinner and thinner, so now I would like to check again what you yourself can hear, before addressing you further.

I say this because it could be the case that you only need to wait, until you develop a stricter sense of rhythm (for comparing beat rates) and/or a higher (self-control and) control of the tuning hammer.

Please, choose one of the samples you recorded, choose the interval that you find most difficult, and let me read your self-critique. After that, I will comment the rest.

As mentioned, add the first-octave expansion, add chromatic octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths and refine your mind-mapping of the beat curves, your power to interlace all intervals by tracing all relationships.

Thanks for giving me news about those lovely bird singing.

Regards, a.c..

Sorry for reply late.

The thirds:

OK/slow/ok/slow/ok/slow/ok/ok/ok

fifths:ok/pure/ok/pure(seems tense)/ok/ok

fourths:ok/same as previous/ok/ok/ok/fast/pure/ok

The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning.

The difficulties:The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny. Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction.

As you see, in most cases your self-correction is quite... correct! You can trust your ear and expand the first octave; keep in your mind (and map) any doubt, try to remember (perhaps) 2 or 3 intervals that you hear you may improve and check them by expanding more fifths, octaves and 10ths, 12ths....

..."The thirds problem had been observed after the tuning. Since had tuned the for two days, so left it until next tuning."...

That's good.

..."The difficulties:The fifths regressiveness not sure. May due to the beat rate change so tiny. Also not confident enough on my hammer skill to make such little correction."...

Yes, hammer-control and stable-pitch come with time, no problem. More important, concentrate on the pin, on its torsion, bending and turning, and going anti-clock-wise relate pitch with pin-charge with no hurry, follow the beat as it slows down and get to the spot.

Next time, if you like: base, fourths (up to F4-A#4), octaves, 10ths and 12ths.

Hi weiyan - although I have not been active with you on this thread, I have none the less been following your progress. It is such a pleasure to see someone so dedicated to improvement as your good self ....never giving up and trying to achieve perfection.

I think you can be very proud of how far you have come, and further more ....... how good you have become! There are not many tuners about that could attain your new found skill standards. Well done ..... you have but a short way too go to achieve perfection ..... and I think ..... you will !!

Sincere best wishes,John

_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdomand Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

Alfredo, thank you. I am back and will submit new tuning next week. I had rhyroplasty operation last week. Its 90% success, the remain 1% still make me silent. Will have follow up operation one or two months later.

The whether is not stable it. Its supposed to be hot in this season, but its cold. The birds flue in China make people fear of birds singing.

Not long ago, someone was asking indirectly what pre-tuning meant, and I think I owe the answer: it means preparatory tuning and it refers to this thread and to a part of its contents.

Below, I am tracing a post by rxd, which I think is worth a comment, for better or worse:

Re: Up a 3rd, Up a 3rd, Down a 5th vs 4ths and 5ths Sequences [Re: UnrightTooner]#2201636 - December 23, 2013 03:11 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd

The trouble with using SBI's is that nobody, but nobody, even those who stake their reputations on tuning by fifths, ever sustains the notes for five seconds while waiting patiently for three beats (or whatever it is) to present themselves. Only to tediously repeat those five seconds with each and every fifth however many times it takes to get it right.

Fifths and octaves or the more compact fifths and fourths was intended for musicians who probably couldn't hear the subtleties of thirds to roughly tune their own instruments before the main event of practicing.

The more sophisticated methods were developed by tuners for whom tuning is the main event.

An RBI can be tuned 'on the fly' with the beat rate established and the pin set with one blow lasting a second or less.

It is transpiring that while most tuners can now hear major thirds, there may be many who cannot hear, or have never thought of using or referencing minor thirds in tuning.

{{At this stage, I had thought that contiguous minor thirds may be too complex but, just spur of the moment, I thought of using A-F# then A-C-D#, then using D#-F# Maj sixth as a check then refining the C but this still will always have one note tuned vicariously}}.

As I said about twelve posts ago, before that memorable graph debacle, it is possible to tune more than half of the temperament octave with direct reference to only the starting note.If there is a mistake, it can not possibly be cumulative and there are more than enough cross checks between the first half dozen or so notes to ensure complete accuracy and cohesiveness. Yes, it requires tuners to have a comprehensive knowledge of the temperament scale on decent pianos to accomplish it and it might not be a good teaching method.

Alrhough i don't always use it, this method has seemed to me to be the most logical answer to the age old problem of cumulative errors and the tedious backtracking to correct them.

It was thought necessary, in WT's to use a cumulative series of fifths and octaves to arrive at a progressive harmonic relative purity of the major and minor keys towards the tonal centre. It works well that way but such a progression is totally unnecessary in ET.

I find it incongruous that a proponent of WT's has abandoned tuning exclusively by fourths and fifths whereas at least one of the main voices opposing WT's still argues for this now archaic and unreliable system of fourths and fifths.

By reading that Topic and the above post I get the idea that RBI's and SBI's are still considered separately, as if we could tune "ET" with a sequence that uses either RBI's or SBI's.

If that was the case, if the attempt was to define the single type of interval that - on its own - can avoid cumulative errors... I would not agree, as I would find that approach to be wrong.

And there, about "cumulative errors", I find one more wrong suggestion, namely that a 12_notes "temperament sequence" enables to achieve "ET" across the whole keyboard, as if there was no need to check 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

If it is true that some of us have understood the relevance of 12ths and how significant 15ths and the "expansion" of the first octave will be, does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

And, before I forget, in light of some recent comments and video offerings, there are two more issues I would like to deepen on, hopefuly together with you: how the hammer technique (and string's tension) might affect the position/output of partials, and consequently all matchings; secondly, those cases when the pitch/frequency drops, after unisons.