They couldnt shoot in the 4th qtr. Playing the 3-guard combo of Dre, Nate and Foye is not exactly a winning formula either. Not to mention, Pop played his starters to the end. Usually they sit in the 4th.

If the Nuggets want a coach who excels at telling the media after a loss that "there were lots of positives out there tonight," then they should swap Brian Shaw for Walt Weiss. Last year, when teams like the Spurs, Clippers, Thunder, etc., came to town, the Nuggets ran them until they were grabbing their shorts at the free throw line in exhaustion. Did any of that happen last night?

To quote the great Sandy Clough this morning: "It is stupid not to run. In this town, at the professional or even the college level, it is stupid not to run."

The Nuggets have put a bad, boring product on the floor and given away home court advantage. We've been waiting three years since the Anthony trade for this young "talented" team to develop but it seems like they are regressing under the new coach. Talent doesn't need time to develop. Talent starts good and turns great. The Nuggets started above average and turned average (maybe edging toward below average now).

The team has no shooters. Nobody who is a credible threat to score on a regular basis. So why would they play triangle basketball as if they did?

It's ugly. And it will get uglier before it gets better unfortunately.

bleedorange wrote:To quote the great Sandy Clough this morning: "It is stupid not to run. In this town, at the professional or even the college level, it is stupid not to run."

The Nuggets have put a bad, boring product on the floor and given away home court advantage. We've been waiting three years since the Anthony trade for this young "talented" team to develop but it seems like they are regressing under the new coach. Talent doesn't need time to develop. Talent starts good and turns great. The Nuggets started above average and turned average (maybe edging toward below average now).

The team has no shooters. Nobody who is a credible threat to score on a regular basis. So why would they play triangle basketball as if they did?

It's ugly. And it will get uglier before it gets better unfortunately.

Good post. I completely agree. It's a collection of very athletic slashers who collectively don't shoot well trying to slow the game down and win a jump shooting contest against better jump shooting teams. I do think they will improve defensively over time, but their offensive philosophy does not mirror their talent.

If the plan was to tank to get a high lottery pick I could understand, but as currently constructed, they do have too much talent not to win at least 30-35 games which will net them the #8 to 12 pick. Even in a deep draft the chance of landing a franchise altering tallent is slim.

At this point they need to do one of 3 things;

1) Have Shaw adapt his coaching philosophy to suit the talent on the roster. Which to be honest, is best suited to fit the guy the Nuggets just fired, so it seems illogical to have brought a triangle style coach in the first place if you were going to stand pat with this roster.

2) Try to trade those tradeable players on your roster that don't fit the style you are trying to adopt (i.e Ty Lawson, Kenneth Faried, Gallo, possibly Wilson), for ones that do. And in doing this it would be difficult to expect to get equal talent in return.

3)Try a firesale approach to try trade all those same tradeable players to obtain as many draft picks as possible. The problem with that is that because this is a deep draft, all the poop teams, who you would need to trade with to aquire those quality picks, probably aren't selling because they all want Wiggins and Smart and the rest of the top in 2014 NBA Draft prospects.

At this point, I think they may be best off doing a combination of # 2 and #3 above over a 2 to 3 year process (as nauseating as that may seem)...Diligently and patiently shopping all these guys around for the absolute best young player, or collection cr@ppy team's draft picks we can get.

Short term that stinks for us the fans, who get to watch a middling at best collection of young players who won't be here in a few years play in a system not suited to their ability getting slowly sold off.

But expecting Javale McGee or Kenneth Faried to turn into a low post scoring threat, or asking Ty Lawson to throw entry passes it into the post and take 3 pointers all night is going to be like continuously punching yourself in the junk and wondering why it hurts when you do.

Last edited by watson81 on November 6th, 2013, 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oh boy is it going to be a looooooonnnng season for the Nuggets. Shaw's adjusting. Player's are adjusting. Trainer's are adjusting. Owner's are adjusting. Fans are adjusting. It's like fine-tuning a dragster. One just has to keep tinkering with it, until it runs well. Or not. Sometimes you have to take the engine out, and replace it. Or the driver. It's the nature of the beast. In any case, our frustration tolerance level will dictate our experience of this team, and it isn't very tolerant when you have players who run out of gas in the 4th quarter, and they're making millions of dollars in the process of petering out on a $75 fan ticket. This is a running team, and we're hoping Shaw isn't trying to turn a gazelle into a Godzilla. Meantime - go Av's! Frankly, a much more exciting sports venue. Just sayin'.

Triangle have not seen it yet. Need more set plays and bodies slashing to the basket. We lost Brewer and Iggy that was very good at this. Foye is a station shooter. Well Fournier needs to be that guy moving he cannot be station and missing shots. No energy player (besides Farried) need to set plays. Slash to the basket run the back door. Need Player to Roll and Set Plays and be moving Just cause it's a half court set does not mean to stand still after one pick. Constant moving Please !

bleedorange wrote:To quote the great Sandy Clough this morning: "It is stupid not to run. In this town, at the professional or even the college level, it is stupid not to run."

The Nuggets have put a bad, boring product on the floor and given away home court advantage. We've been waiting three years since the Anthony trade for this young "talented" team to develop but it seems like they are regressing under the new coach. Talent doesn't need time to develop. Talent starts good and turns great. The Nuggets started above average and turned average (maybe edging toward below average now).

The team has no shooters. Nobody who is a credible threat to score on a regular basis. So why would they play triangle basketball as if they did?

It's ugly. And it will get uglier before it gets better unfortunately.

Explain how they are regressing when they are the same players. A few additions minus Iggy, but pretty much the same. The system itself is changing a bit, but Shaw stil prefers pushing the pace.

All GK did was conceal their shortcomings with the fast pace offense by getting all those regular season wins. But when it really mattered in the playoffs, their lack of defense, lack of shooting and lack of FTs were exposed year after year.

So the talent in question is the result of GK’s coaching. Shaw inherited that. The outside shots are still murky, lack of a defense, and they never really practiced the half court offense.

Why assume the triangle offense already? We havent seen it. At this point Shaw is trying to get the big guys to post up, at the low or high post. The foul troubles for Javale and Mozzy can be corrected. He has yet to get his starting lineup together with Gallo and Chandler out.

Think about it. Shaw was hired the end of June. TC began on Oct 2nd. One month + is not enough time to install a balanced, full functioning offense consisting of pushing the pace (yes, Shaw prefers keeping that) and settting up the halfcourt.

So all the nonsensical suggestions about trading players or having a firesale is absolute gibberish. I would rather be patient with the changes than have endured a 10th year of the predictable regular season coaching that is worthless in the playoffs. Change is good.

bleedorange wrote:To quote the great Sandy Clough this morning: "It is stupid not to run. In this town, at the professional or even the college level, it is stupid not to run."

The Nuggets have put a bad, boring product on the floor and given away home court advantage. We've been waiting three years since the Anthony trade for this young "talented" team to develop but it seems like they are regressing under the new coach. Talent doesn't need time to develop. Talent starts good and turns great. The Nuggets started above average and turned average (maybe edging toward below average now).

The team has no shooters. Nobody who is a credible threat to score on a regular basis. So why would they play triangle basketball as if they did?

It's ugly. And it will get uglier before it gets better unfortunately.

Explain how they are regressing when they are the same players. A few additions minus Iggy, but pretty much the same. The system itself is changing a bit, but Shaw stil prefers pushing the pace.

All GK did was conceal their shortcomings with the fast pace offense by getting all those regular season wins. But when it really mattered in the playoffs, their lack of defense, lack of shooting and lack of FTs were exposed year after year.

So the talent in question is the result of GK’s coaching. Shaw inherited that. The outside shots are still murky, lack of a defense, and they never really practiced the half court offense.

Why assume the triangle offense already? We havent seen it. At this point Shaw is trying to get the big guys to post up, at the low or high post. The foul troubles for Javale and Mozzy can be corrected. He has yet to get his starting lineup together with Gallo and Chandler out.

Think about it. Shaw was hired the end of June. TC began on Oct 2nd. One month + is not enough time to install a balanced, full functioning offense consisting of pushing the pace (yes, Shaw prefers keeping that) and settting up the halfcourt.

So all the nonsensical suggestions about trading players or having a firesale is absolute gibberish. I would rather be patient with the changes than have endured a 10th year of the predictable regular season coaching that is worthless in the playoffs. Change is good.

The problem with this is that if you are going to have a half court offense that as you pointed out consists of a high and low post up game and you have maybe one player on your roster (JJ Hickson) who has demonstrated they can produce offense in the post, this won't work. Mozzy's shown some improvement, but to expect much more than 8 points a night from him is asking a bit much. He's a solid backup center who will now have to play starters minutes because the guy they are paying the money (11 mil/year) to is an offensive and defensive liability and can't be left on the floor for more than 5 minutes at a time. I love Manimal and all, but lets be honest, he's an undersized "energy" player with no real offensive game to speak of (other than oops, fast break finishes, and o board putbacks) and is not going to ever be a great low post scoring threat. And pretty soon, the Nuggets, or some one, is going to have to pay him 10 to 11 mil per year. So that will mean the Nuggets will be paying 2 front court players (Javale and Manimal) 20 to 23 mil a year, neither of which are capable of providing that low/high post offense you refer to.

From what can be gathered of Shaw's system, it also pretty clearly relies on good mid range and parimeter jumps shooting. The roster, as currently constructed, doesn't have many reliable jump shooters on it. Their best player is a point guard who is a mediocre at best jump shooter and is too short to shoot over other point guards. He relies on dribble drive to produce most of his offense and most of his assists. This is not overly conducive to a team trying to operate their offense off of the post up game and jump shooting. He also makes 11 Mill a year. So now we are in the mid 30 mil range per year on players not properly suited for Shaw's system.

Gallo is one player that may fit in to some degree as he is capable of being a good parimeter shooter (streaky allbeit), but dribble drive is also a huge part of his game as well. He is big enough to make you think maybe he could post up, but has not looked very good the limited times we have seen it to this point. That may be worth further exploring. He eats up another 10 mil of your cap.

Foye is probably their best shooter (by percentage any way) and he should be no more than a 6th man on any good team and he is getting old. Chandler can't stay healthy for more than 10 consecutive games and is a complimentary scorer when he is (though he can have an occasional big night).

I'm fine with giving Shaw time to implement his concepts and all, but think it some what relevant to acknowledge that this roster is not in any way constructed to be an inside/out jump shooting team as currently constructed.

Why should Brian Shaw apologize for three...or ten...straight losses? Denver jettisoned it's EOY and COY, it's only decent center and the closest thing it had to a superstar--Igoudala. What's left is a group of mostly one-dimensional players with little clue about what's going on.

Just two years after losing Anthony, the team won it's most games since the ABA...and for that...this? Remember, Gallo wasn't available for the playoffs...think that might have made a difference?

That's neither here nor there, water over the dam, etc. What we have here is a lottery team...20-25 wins, max, or what I call, ''boycott ball.''

In the post game press conference Shaw said he wanted them to push the pace and they didn't. We saw that at times last year under Karl. So it's not like he wants to walk the ball up the court. The Chicago Bulls are 1 and 2 with a narrow 1 point victory for their lone win. Basically the same boat as the Nuggets. I agree that things look a bit awkward at the moment but I agree with others on this board, I would rather suffer through some early season awkwardness, than to head hell bent for the playoffs with another early departure. People talk like Corey Brewer and Iggy are Kevin Durant and Lebron James. They were not and are not that good. Those of you talking about Masai being gods gift to the front office and in the same breath bad mouth Javale Mcgee and his big contract, who do you think gave him that contract? The idea is to give some of our young talent reigns and see if they can run with it. You are not going to know if they can do this in 3 games. Karl ran a shorter bench and just ran b#LLS out all the time to cover for the lack of experience, but talent was notably not developed. They looked much better against San Antonio and they are San Antonio! I am for giving it some time and letting the stew simmer a bit before passing ultimate judgement.

bleedorange wrote:To quote the great Sandy Clough this morning: "It is stupid not to run. In this town, at the professional or even the college level, it is stupid not to run."

The Nuggets have put a bad, boring product on the floor and given away home court advantage. We've been waiting three years since the Anthony trade for this young "talented" team to develop but it seems like they are regressing under the new coach. Talent doesn't need time to develop. Talent starts good and turns great. The Nuggets started above average and turned average (maybe edging toward below average now).

The team has no shooters. Nobody who is a credible threat to score on a regular basis. So why would they play triangle basketball as if they did?

It's ugly. And it will get uglier before it gets better unfortunately.

Explain how they are regressing when they are the same players. A few additions minus Iggy, but pretty much the same. The system itself is changing a bit, but Shaw stil prefers pushing the pace.

All GK did was conceal their shortcomings with the fast pace offense by getting all those regular season wins. But when it really mattered in the playoffs, their lack of defense, lack of shooting and lack of FTs were exposed year after year.

So the talent in question is the result of GK’s coaching. Shaw inherited that. The outside shots are still murky, lack of a defense, and they never really practiced the half court offense.

Why assume the triangle offense already? We havent seen it. At this point Shaw is trying to get the big guys to post up, at the low or high post. The foul troubles for Javale and Mozzy can be corrected. He has yet to get his starting lineup together with Gallo and Chandler out.

Think about it. Shaw was hired the end of June. TC began on Oct 2nd. One month + is not enough time to install a balanced, full functioning offense consisting of pushing the pace (yes, Shaw prefers keeping that) and settting up the halfcourt.

So all the nonsensical suggestions about trading players or having a firesale is absolute gibberish. I would rather be patient with the changes than have endured a 10th year of the predictable regular season coaching that is worthless in the playoffs. Change is good.

Im feeling nothing but negative vibes here. So and so cant do this, that is why it wont work. Its draining. Some optimism would be good here.

In Dempsey’s article today, once more he points out Javale’s progress and learning the offense as all the guys are doing. He is slightly better inside, footwork, and creating shots for himself. His apparent weakness is his interior defense. Hes allowing easy inside passes to the big guys like Cousins, Tiago...and he will probably have trouble defending a more versatile athletic Horford tonite.

The halfcourt does not only consist of the big guys posting up. Like ccorea mentioned in a prior comment, everyone needs to move without the ball. Gallo will be fine in this offense. True he is a streaky shooter, but his ability to attack the rim also works in his favor. Shaw expects them to cut and have movement, get open.

There are plenty of undersized guys like Faried in the game today. Milsap from ATL is one, Paul George, Marion, Kawai. Not sure why you expect Faried to be a low post scoring threat when none of those guys really are one, rather they have specialized skill sets.

I can understand if youre not picking up on Faried's play above the rim, his rebounds, his hustle, and he grabbed his first double double in the POR game coming off the bench. Mustve missed that too. But what I could never understand is why some complain about him being undersized when REAL bball analysts are impressed with his game. All you have to do is look at his stats from last year, from one yr to the next, look at his double doubles. Those dont come easy for someone who earns a living getting after the ball against other big men. Its the fundamentals that need some work.

From what can be gathered of Shaw's system, it also pretty clearly relies on good mid range and parimeter jumps shooting.

That is not clear, just your opinon. Shaw wants them to take the jumpers when they are open. Just like how he still prefers the uptempo in transition. He is still figuring his rotation out, seeing their strengths, while transitioning into the offense he eventually wants. For the most part, they are expected to play within a certain style that still has a lot of tweaking to be had.

The roster, as currently constructed, doesn't have many reliable jump shooters on it. Their best player is a point guard who is a mediocre at best jump shooter and is too short to shoot over other point guards.

Knocking Ty’s jump shot is not the best way to support your argument. No doubt, attacking the basket is his jam. The past yr, his mid range jumpers have improved.

Not sure how closely you paid attention to his game but his off-the-dribble and pull up jumpers were looking pretty sweet. His lack of height is only a weakness on defense. As for the other PGs, Dre already leads this team in FG%. Not sure about Nate, not really paying attention to him.

I think you have it wrong. An inside/out offense does not lead to a jump shooting team. The idea is to first toss the ball to a post player. They need to learn to score inside, get to the rim. Mozzy is more confident than Javale at this point, but that doesn’t mean to discount him out altogether. They kick it back out if theres nothing there.

Were not expecting the outside shooters to turn water into wine at this early stage, however, they have had better outside shooting in the last game so one can only hope.

Im feeling nothing but negative vibes here. So and so cant do this, that is why it wont work. Its draining. Some optimism would be good here.

In Dempsey’s article today, once more he points out Javale’s progress and learning the offense as all the guys are doing. He is slightly better inside, footwork, and creating shots for himself. His apparent weakness is his interior defense. Hes allowing easy inside passes to the big guys like Cousins, Tiago...and he will probably have trouble defending a more versatile athletic Horford tonite.

The halfcourt does not only consist of the big guys posting up. Like ccorea mentioned in a prior comment, everyone needs to move without the ball. Gallo will be fine in this offense. True he is a streaky shooter, but his ability to attack the rim also works in his favor. Shaw expects them to cut and have movement, get open.

There are plenty of undersized guys like Faried in the game today. Milsap from ATL is one, Paul George, Marion, Kawai. Not sure why you expect Faried to be a low post scoring threat when none of those guys really are one, rather they have specialized skill sets.

I can understand if youre not picking up on Faried's play above the rim, his rebounds, his hustle, and he grabbed his first double double in the POR game coming off the bench. Mustve missed that too. But what I could never understand is why some complain about him being undersized when REAL bball analysts are impressed with his game. All you have to do is look at his stats from last year, from one yr to the next, look at his double doubles. Those dont come easy for someone who earns a living getting after the ball against other big men. Its the fundamentals that need some work.

From what can be gathered of Shaw's system, it also pretty clearly relies on good mid range and parimeter jumps shooting.

That is not clear, just your opinon. Shaw wants them to take the jumpers when they are open. Just like how he still prefers the uptempo in transition. He is still figuring his rotation out, seeing their strengths, while transitioning into the offense he eventually wants. For the most part, they are expected to play within a certain style that still has a lot of tweaking to be had.

The roster, as currently constructed, doesn't have many reliable jump shooters on it. Their best player is a point guard who is a mediocre at best jump shooter and is too short to shoot over other point guards.

Knocking Ty’s jump shot is not the best way to support your argument. No doubt, attacking the basket is his jam. The past yr, his mid range jumpers have improved.

Not sure how closely you paid attention to his game but his off-the-dribble and pull up jumpers were looking pretty sweet. His lack of height is only a weakness on defense. As for the other PGs, Dre already leads this team in FG%. Not sure about Nate, not really paying attention to him.

I think you have it wrong. An inside/out offense does not lead to a jump shooting team. The idea is to first toss the ball to a post player. They need to learn to score inside, get to the rim. Mozzy is more confident than Javale at this point, but that doesn’t mean to discount him out altogether. They kick it back out if theres nothing there.

Were not expecting the outside shooters to turn water into wine at this early stage, however, they have had better outside shooting in the last game so one can only hope.

Tuji,

As a pragmatic fan, and not a pom-pom waiver, I feel it is more productive to take an honest assessment of my team rather than just blindly assume everything will just work out. I’m all for giving Shaw all the freedom to install his system, but just feel that system doesn’t match the players on this roster. This is neither his, nor those payers fault, so to take it as if I am assigning bamle to either is incorrect. That is going to be a front office project, that will in my opinion, take some time (ie multiple years) and gradual yet significant roster movement to complete.

My evaluation of the players on the Nuggets (Ty, Manimal, Javale) are based on watching nearly every game they have played as a Nugget, not just the last 3. What I outlined in my prior posts were less about being “critical” of Ty, Manimal, Gallo & Javale (well maybe in the case of Javale they were). In the case of the first three, I LOVE each one of their games immensely. My evaluation is to illustrate that those players games were perfect in a offensive system centered around dribble penetration in which driving lanes were open and not occupied by low post players in the lane (and thus also their defenders). Like the system the used to play in which, in my opinion, better showcased their individual and collective talents. It was to further point out that their individual, and collective games don not nearly as appropriately suit the “inside/out” approach that Brian Shaw has been involved in at nearly every level of his playing and coaching career, and has continued to preach he is trying to install here. Pointing that out is not an endorsement of GK, nor is it an indictment of Brian Shaw. It is to say that for Brian Shaw to be given a chance to succeed, he needs to be provided players that fit the mold of his offense, as GK was afforded.

For example, when you say “Knocking Ty’s jump shot is not the best way to support your argument.”..Well, in truth it probably is. Compare Ty to some of the other point guards in the league (look at these shot charts from last year below), and you will see what I am talking about. The only elite point guard he compares favorably against in the mid range is Russell Westbrook who is the pure definition of a “volume shooter”. Ty works best when he is able to take his guy off the dribble and into a lane not clogged by traffic and either take it to the cup, or have other defenders collapse on him and dish the man that defender sags off. In this type of system, defenders are forced to sag off of him even more as they don’t have interior defensive help because the rest of the Nuggets are on the parimeter which give him more space to get off his jump shot (which he needs because he’s like 5” 10). An “inside/out” system severely undercuts both those elements of his half court offensive game.

Regarding my assessment of Manimal, you must not have read my prior post when you claim I am “not picking up on Faried's play above the rim, his rebounds, his hustle”, because I mentioned all those elements specifically in my prior post. I explained (if you read it again) that those strengths of his are not as amplified in an “inside/out” system when you are asking your bigs to post up in the paint against guys bigger then him, instead of playing closer to the parimieter and using his quickness advantage to get buckets off the penetration of Ty (and others) looking to dish, and on high pick and rolls. That is where he has always got the majority of his points, and given his skill set, it makes a lot of sense. Comparing him to Paul Milsap, who , if youv’e ever watched him play actually has an extremely polished low post game (unlike Manimal) is not really a very good comparison. They do completely different types of things. Paul George is a 6 foot 9 SMALL forward who does not really operate very much with is back to the basket (not undersized by any means and taller than Manimal) who is one of the most gifted offensive swingmen in the NBA today. Comparing him to a 6 foot 8 POWER forward, who has a skill set nowhere in the same species is a very head scratching comparison. Shawn Marion is at this point primarially a 3 point shooter, and in his prime could take his man off the dribble as well. Kawhi Leonard is a small forward who Spends majority of the time on the perimeter, who can shot from deep, and take his man off the dribbile on dribble drive. Manimal, can’t shoot and he can’t dribble, so again, I’m not sure how this is an apt comparison. I’m sure he can improve his offensive game some, but to expect him to all of a sudden start taking and making 3’s like Marion, being a dribble drive and fade away jump shooter like Paul George would be like expecting your cat to learn to do your taxes. he has also to this pint been a considerably below average ball side defender. I do think working with Shaw will improve this quite a bit (as it will the rest of the Nuggets as GK's defensive philosophy was gimmicky and easy for good teams to expoit). Manimal is great at what he does and I am in no way implying he is not a valuable player, but let's not make him into something he is not. He's also due a pay raise at the end of next year and that price tag will be big.

If you are pointing to a Chris Dempsey write up to defend Javale McGee’s offensive low post skills, I would direct you to look at the first 5 years of his career and the first 3 games of this. Nothing about what he has done to this point would leave one to believe he will be a good back to the basket low post scorer. I would love to be proven wrong, but can’t ignore what the eyes and the stat sheet reveal

You are right about all of the above being my opinion. Just as what you stated is your opinion. And for what it’s worth, as you do me, I think you are "flat wrong". But that's OK, that's what these forums are for. That said,I have actual tangible evidence with more than a 3 game sample size to defend my opinion.

I hope I’m wrong and that somehow Ty turns into Chris Paul and becomes that sniper half court distributer and mid range jumpshooter that an “inside-out” approach requires. I hope Manimal wakes up one day and has the low post skills, lower body strength, and ball side defensive skills of Paul Milsap or shooting range of Shawn Marion or Kawai Leonard. And I hope Javale develops into an actual NBA player you can put out for more than 3 minutes at a time without scrambling to get Mozgov back in the game.

In the event none or not much of the above happens, some dramatic roster shifting will need to occur.

You sound like John Ralston now. After losing to Washington 30-3, he started his press conference with, "Here's what I saw from the team that I liked tonight..."

Please.

I was shocked he actually wrote a post without insulting someone or saying they did not understand basketball

I'm thinking the straightforward insults this year are flowing almost exclusively one way. Tough year last year for sure--lost respect for many Nugs fans that I think got caught in a kind of feeding frenzy where 90% of the posts--bizarrely--were complaints about almost everything here and elsewhere about a 57 win season. I guess we're all getting a dose or reality this year, so I've found the threads to be a lot easier to respond to.