Of course I wish them "true joy." But I equally wish people happiness, and I think it's far too "spiritual" to claim God isn't interested in our happiness. I would not, in this case, wish them "true joy" in the context of the wedding precisely because that would either be interpreted as wishing the "union" brings the joy (which is impossible) or else it would be seen for what it is: a hollow condemnation (you may as well say, "I wish you whatever unhappiness and harm is necessary that you may come to true joy").

Remember that God causes the rain to fall on both the good and the evil. It isn't for me to wish evil or pain on someone. I leave that to God. And beyond all that, remember that we are not to judge those outside of the church (1 Cor 5:2). So I don't. I truly do wish all people happiness. I don't wish anyone be miserable, even those living in sin. After all, we know that God can and does bring people to repentance through strong discipline. But sometimes He does so through more gentle means, and wherever that is possible, I pray very much for that.

And if all that is not enough, I just think of myself. I struggle with sin, and yet I wish myself happiness. I hope you wish me happiness, too. Do you think your sin or mine are less in the eyes of God than your gay friends' is? If, then, I hope for, strive for, and pray for happiness even in midst of my sin, if I hope and pray that for you, then should I not do the same for my illicitly "united" friends?

fakedit: I take exactly the same view on other illicit marriages between even heterosexual adults. This isn't limited to homosexuality.

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

Jac3510 wrote:Of course I wish them "true joy." But I equally wish people happiness, and I think it's far too "spiritual" to claim God isn't interested in our happiness. I would not, in this case, wish them "true joy" in the context of the wedding precisely because that would either be interpreted as wishing the "union" brings the joy (which is impossible) or else it would be seen for what it is: a hollow condemnation (you may as well say, "I wish you whatever unhappiness and harm is necessary that you may come to true joy").

Remember that God causes the rain to fall on both the good and the evil. It isn't for me to wish evil or pain on someone. I leave that to God. And beyond all that, remember that we are not to judge those outside of the church (1 Cor 5:2). So I don't. I truly do wish all people happiness. I don't wish anyone be miserable, even those living in sin. After all, we know that God can and does bring people to repentance through strong discipline. But sometimes He does so through more gentle means, and wherever that is possible, I pray very much for that.

And if all that is not enough, I just think of myself. I struggle with sin, and yet I wish myself happiness. I hope you wish me happiness, too. Do you think your sin or mine are less in the eyes of God than your gay friends' is? If, then, I hope for, strive for, and pray for happiness even in midst of my sin, if I hope and pray that for you, then should I not do the same for my illicitly "united" friends?

fakedit: I take exactly the same view on other illicit marriages between even heterosexual adults. This isn't limited to homosexuality.

I never made a blanket statement saying God is never interested in our happiness.

My point was, God is often far more interest in giving us true joy. Happiness is something the world chases after. Did Jesus live a 'happy' life? When I read Isaiah 53, it seems not so much... But he did have true joy which is of muchMore value.

Maybe true joy is not the best thing to say, but I hardly think wishing them happiness in there marriage that great either. You arent going to their wedding yet you want them to be happy together? Maybe if they ended up unhappy together they would find Christ....

Wishing Christ for people more than happiness is not a evil thing. I never said you shouldnt wish for people to be happy but in the context of a relationship with Christ. Not in the context of sin.

And I never said I wished them happiness MORE than Christ. I said I wished them happiness. I'm sorry if you don't wish other people, including yourself, happiness. I do. And to answer your question about Jesus, yes, I think He had a very happy life. I actually don't think the Pharisees had a very happy life, and I think that's one of the reasons they hated Him. Note Luke 7:34. There was something in Jesus' behavior and affect that the Pharisees were misinterpreting.

So, again, yes, I would, and do, wish them happiness. And I wish you great happiness, Nessa, even though you live in sin every day, too. I'd like to think you wish it for me, even though I live in sin every day,

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

Jac3510 wrote:And I never said I wished them happiness MORE than Christ. I said I wished them happiness. I'm sorry if you don't wish other people, including yourself, happiness. I do. And to answer your question about Jesus, yes, I think He had a very happy life ,

Can you please point out where I said you specifically wished them happiness more than christ?

Thats up to you to tell us if thats true or not, isnt it?

You are twisting my words saying I dont wish happiness for people. I said I dont wish ppl to be happy in their sin.

I'm just responding to what strikes me as a pretty ferocious objection to me wishing gay people happiness. You said it is more important to wish them joy, that we shouldn't wish them happiness more than Christ. That's in the context of us discussing if it is appropriate to wish them happiness. The implication I draw, whether you intend it or not, is you think I'm wishing them happiness more than Christ. Just so, you said that it's okay to wish happiness so long as you aren't essentially saying "go sin and be happy in it." Seems like you are interpreting my wishing them happiness to be saying, "go sin and be happy in it." Of course, I never said that. I just said I wish them happiness. And I do.

In view view, happiness is just an emotion. It's neither good nor evil. It is related to our happenstance (and so the word). Just so, sadness is just an emotion. It's related to our circumstances. Fear, courage, love, hate, anger . . . these are all emotions related to circumstances in our lives. It is good to be happy in some circumstances. It is good to be sad in some circumstances. I am saying that I wish people the very best. I wish for people great blessings that they can enjoy, things that will make them happy. I see that as praying for my enemies and being kind to them. I don't pray, "God get those gays so they'll repent! Make 'em miserable!" I ask God to richly bless them so that they can see His kindness and turn to Him. If, in His sovereignty, He sees that harsh discipline is necessary, then that makes me positively sad. It breaks my heart. I wish it were not that way, and I plead for mercy for them, just as the Old Testament prophets pleaded for mercy for the children of Israel even when they sinned. And if God is merciful, then that is wonderful! And if He is not, then He is still just, and I entrust them in their discipline into His loving hands.

And why do I do all this? Because of the Golden Rule. Because it is how I pray for myself. Because it is how I hope they pray for me. Therefore, Jesus obligates me to so pray for them. And so I do. I hope you feel the same way.

edit:

And I don't mistake happiness for true joy. And yes, we'll disagree if you think Jesus did not have a happy life. Part of that is because I think people have a moral obligation to be happy (not joyful). Jesus was perfect and so He kept that obligation. Guess what - you can be acquainted with sorrows and still he a happy (not joyful, that's another matter) person! Let me take you to my hospital where I sit with people sick and dying in the ICU and the hospice. Quite a few are happy even in the midst of their tribulations, and that's a good thing--even for the one's that are not Christian. Because quite a few are also very, very, very sad and angry (even some of the ones who are Christian). It's much better to be happy than sad or angry, regardless of whether you have true joy or not.

Nessa, I hope your life is happy and joyful.

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

Milady, Milord, please calm down, there is no need for raging arguments between Brothers and Sisters who are united in service and stewardship, in His Name.

As for me, I'm honestly torn between yes and no, but leaning to no.

Yes: because If the one gay person who is getting married is my friend, and it would be bad and dishonorable to not attend and it will be a shame on me, same goes to being asked to attend.

No: because of my Faith, and the concept of Gay Marriage, people might argue that "This is for Love" and I asked myself, is this for Love or self-enjoyment ? Because unlike Heterosexual Marriage which is VERY Necessary for the survival of society and of the human race, Homosexual Marriage don't give society anything but of their own enjoyment.

Okay think about this, what would happen in this world when Homosexual Marriages is the norm and Heterosexual Marriage is outlawed?

I could clearly see that the spark, the raging passion and of the growing love that exist between a Man and Woman would clearly die out due to this.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.- Jesus Christ

Disappointment is inevitable. But to become discouraged, there's a choice I make. God would never discourage me. He would always point me to himself to trust him. Therefore, my discouragement is from Satan. As you go through the emotions that we have, hostility is not from God, bitterness, unforgiveness, all of these are attacks from Satan.- Charles Stanley

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

Ok. Now that the first question has been answered, here's another question. It's completely "hypothetical".

In this hypothetical, let's say someone's brother in law was married close to 30 years, and then divorced his wife. The wife did not want the divorce. During the months of the divorce becoming legal, this man met another woman. Now, the following year, this man, who is someone's brother in law, is marrying this woman.

Would you attend your wife's brother's wedding? Why or why not?

1 Corinthians 1:99 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."

RickD wrote:Ok. Now that the first question has been answered, here's another question. It's completely "hypothetical".

In this hypothetical, let's say someone's brother in law was married close to 30 years, and then divorced his wife. The wife did not want the divorce. During the months of the divorce becoming legal, this man met another woman. Now, the following year, this man, who is someone's brother in law, is marrying this woman.

Would you attend your wife's brother's wedding? Why or why not?

I suppose so. Not the best circumstances for a wedding but I don't think the marriage would be as obviously wrong as a same-sex one and therefore be worth making a point about. Oh, and if I had a wife, I'd have had my own gay wedding

RickD wrote:Ok. Now that the first question has been answered, here's another question. It's completely "hypothetical".

In this hypothetical, let's say someone's brother in law was married close to 30 years, and then divorced his wife. The wife did not want the divorce. During the months of the divorce becoming legal, this man met another woman. Now, the following year, this man, who is someone's brother in law, is marrying this woman.

Would you attend your wife's brother's wedding? Why or why not?

All things being equal (i.e., the divorce wasn't because she'd had an affair), then no, because "I take exactly the same view on other illicit marriages between even heterosexual adults. This isn't limited to homosexuality."

edit:

There's something of a very practical point worth adding from my perspective here as we're simply talking about attending a wedding vs performing one. I am and feel under no obligation to fully vet the bridge and groom's eligibility to marry before I accept an invitation. Chances are that in the story you just shared, I would have already well known the backstory simply because this is my brother-in-law. On the other hand, if this is a friend of a friend who I don't know that well, I probably wouldn't know that background. I wouldn't feel the need to investigate here and would just leave that to the minister, trusting they've done their due diligence. I don't mean to unnecessarily muddy the waters. I just am trying to get at the very practical part of reality that says that I don't have the time and am under no obligation to look into the background of everything I do or use before I do or use it to make sure everything is, was, and has been ethically a-okay. If, on the other hand, I already do know that's its not, then I shouldn't do so. In addition to the practical aspect (really, who has time for such an exhaustive search of everything?), I think this follows a good biblical principle (see 1 Cor 10:25-30).

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

I'm trying to think practically too. The "hypothetical" is basically 30 years of marriage, and trying to work it out in the end, even though they just could not get along. Assuming there was a real effort on both sides to work on the marriage up until the end, when the BIL just couldn't do it anymore. Both of them were having bad health issues from the stress they were putting on each other.

So, while being familiar with the situation, I obviously don't know the entire story. And as far as I know, adultery wasn't involved.

My other BIL, who is the brother of the man involved, is the pastor who is performing their ceremony. I think I'm going to have a one-on-one conversation with him, to get his perspective on it. As he is performing the ceremony, he must be ok with it. I'd like to hear his rationale.

This is a difficult struggle for me.

Not to mention, my 16 year old son is having a very difficult time with the whole thing. He was against the divorce, and subsequent remarrying. He's pissed at his uncle. He can't understand why he would do that. I've tried to explain to my son, that he doesn't understand all that happened. And it's not as simple as it seems. But now, looking at what I said, I may be trying to make excuses for a bad choice. I can't put myself in my bil's shoes, and what he went through. But, ultimately, he made a conscious choice to give up. I can't say whether I would do the same in his shoes, but that doesn't effect if what he did was wrong.

1 Corinthians 1:99 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."

I think separating the question between the divorce and the remarriage is a good thing. Lots of people in my family have gotten divorced. Several have asked me about it. I remind them that even on the harshest interpretation, divorce is not the unpardonable sin. And to really push it, I think a lot of people get divorced long before they get a judge to sign a legal piece of paper. What, do we think that just because people don't get the paper signed that they have not "put asunder what God has joined together"? I tend to think the legal divorce is just a "natural" consequences of the spiritual divorce that happened long before.

So whatever the case with your BIL's difficult marriage, you don't have to judge. He was clearly hurting a long time, as was the ex-wife. You can feel compassion for him. You can also feel compassion for his longing for companionship. Someone once said that it isn't good for a man to be alone. And I hear that. So there's no need to judge or condemn his desire to remarry. Having said all that, does it justify his actual remarriage?

Strictly, of course not. Is it, again, the unpardonable sin? Of course not. And there's no need not to wish him happiness. There's no reason to make it an issue of fellowship. But do you need to celebrate the remarriage? I wouldn't think so, and perhaps you and your son can grow closer through this. Maybe sharing in his pain would let him see that what he's feeling is normal, that he's not weird. Maybe his own pain is rooted in something a lot deeper than just "Uncle Bob got divorced and that sucks." I'd encourage you to remember your obligation to your own wife and kids and their well-being just as much if not more than that of your BIL. But yeah, definitely not simple. This is tough stuff. You get emotions and relationships involved, it's always tough, and often there's no good answer at all. Just least bad answers. We humans tend to be complicated things, and sometimes, I think our desire to simply stuff into easy black and white answers is more about an attempt to soothe our own anxieties than it is about anything else.

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.