I don't think the baby pens have tanked at all... I think they've just kinda come back to the pack so to speak after we raided the majority of their team... I think they would look much better with Christensen, Fleury, Whitney, Surovy, Oullet, Armstrong, etc. back on their team... We basically took their top 2 lines and best defenseman and goalie.

It's scary to think what they might have done if things hadn't gone so south for the Pens and they wouldn't have needed to call everyone up.

That said, most of those guys should have been with the big team anyway, bad signings be damned.

I understand. Adjustments have to be made and alot of that comes to coaching. Witness the London Knights last season. Coaching is very under-rated and I'm worried that with Mullen as coach they will choke again. It would be alot easier to win at an elite level if you can win at a Junior level first.

Not sure if you saw this, but London is again tops in the OHL with 95 points. That gives them a three-point lead over Peterborough for the OHL regular season championship.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the statement that coaching is underrated at those levels. Take London, for example. I'm not suggesting that Dale Hunter is not a good coach. But he's got three 100-point players on that team right now. An OHL team is usually lucky to have one, let alone three.

Hunter's son Dylan has 110 points in 58 games played (1.89 ppg). David Bolland has 119 points in 54 games (2.20 ppg). And Robbie Schremp has 135 points in 52 games (2.60 ppg...that's almost unheard of for the OHL). When you've got three guys scoring 2 points a game or more for you, how hard can it be to win games? Again, not taking anything away from Hunter, because he's a good coach (I question his tactics sometimes).

At the AHL level, I think it's important to remember that the primary focus there should be on player development. If I'm the Pens, I'd be more concerned about Mullen's abilities to prepare a player for the NHL game than I would be concerned about him coaching that team to a Calder Cup. Generally, if the coaches are doing a good job with the player development throughout the team, it'll breed on-ice success (keep in mind, though...on-ice success in the AHL doesn't always mean you're developing good NHL players - look at some of those early WBS rosters).

You mention the current Pens team and their tendency to dig themselves a hole early on. I think some of that comes from them being a young team playing back on their heels a bit and trying not to make mistakes. There have also been several games this year where they've come out smoking, sometimes with success and sometimes without. The problem is that you can't ask any team to keep that kind of blistering pace up for an entire game. The adrenaline eventually wears off a bit and that's where they sometimes make their mistakes. Like any young team, they have a little bit of a hard time recapturing the pace of the game.

OK. Take Scotty Bowman for example. Would the Pens have won 3 cups in a row with him at the helm?

I'm not sure of many people that have heard of Dave Bolland as compared to Mark Recchi. Ziggy Palffy, John LeClair and Crosby are huge names in hockey. Now, we have a goalie that is hyped like Patrick Roy but yet hasn't proven a single solitary thing. He even plays the puck up the middle in a championship game...

Of course you want players to develop. How long does it take?? Is Fleury still developing? I've still to see a game where he has "STOLEN" one for his team without fortune (other than his very first game in the NHL). Staal is scoring HUGE goals for his team. They are already challenging for the SC. The Penguins?? At this point they seem to be a bunch of overrated players. Not 1 single solitary person has stepped up this season. They play pond hockey. They play ringette. The Calgary Flames made it to the finals by playing like MEN.

I'm sorry but Joey Mullen isn't gonna cut it as a Championship coach. He has scored 500 goals. However he's smallish and has no balls. Dale Hunter is the biggest goon ever and that style still wins.

The first half of the season is where the chick teams win. No one takes it seriously until after the break.

The main thing is we have to let these players play together for a while. Let them get accustomed to eachother. (Other than Endicott.) There are some bright spots on this team but it's like they are in another world for the first 2 periods of every freaking game.

I'm from Canada and would love nothing more than the Pens to get an arena. Love the team. That is tough living in the "Leafs Region." Believe me!!

Morozov wrote:Now, we have a goalie that is hyped like Patrick Roy but yet hasn't proven a single solitary thing. He even plays the puck up the middle in a championship game...

Of course you want players to develop. How long does it take?? Is Fleury still developing?

Not to be rude here, but come on. Fleury is TWENTY ONE...21. Name a starter in the NHL that young! Try. Please.

He has respectable numbers while playing for a horrible team...and he is TWENTY ONE. Goalies develop much slower than forwards. It's as simple as that. And if you haven't seen Fleury steal a game, then you don't watch much, because he stands on his head often, only to get no support from anyone else. One player does not make a team.

Morozov wrote:I'm sorry but Joey Mullen isn't gonna cut it as a Championship coach. He has scored 500 goals. However he's smallish and has no balls. Dale Hunter is the biggest goon ever and that style still wins.

Well then, why don't goons ever make it to the NHL as head coaches? And, better yet, why don't teams load up with goons and ditch the expensive skilled players? Good logic on this one

Morozov wrote:The first half of the season is where the chick teams win. No one takes it seriously until after the break.

Yep..they could care less about the beginning of the season. Thats why you see teams separate themselves from the rest early on...and thats why teams fall to the bottom early on. Again, nice logic. or is it >>>?

Morozov wrote:The main thing is we have to let these players play together for a while. Let them get accustomed to eachother.

Odd, it seems to me that everything you have said in this post is completely opposite of this statement. You HAVEN'T let Fleury get his chance to play and you are writing him off. And, as for coaching, if it were simply about letting these guys play together, what's so wrong with allowing Mullen to be their coach? Did you ever think that the reason the Baby Pens have faultered (not tanked) is because most of their goalscorers are in the NHL now? Ouellet, Surovy, Armstrong, Christensen and Whitney played a big role in the Baby Pens quick start. They're all in the NHL now, though Christensen is on his way back down. You can't win when your top players are taken away. And one more quick thing. Why on earth would WBS tank? What would it get them? Nothing. There are no draft picks at stake, no draft lottery, nothing. They need money and they need to develop. They aren't tanking.

Whenever a Center is under the microscope, it's the most difficult position to play. Whenever a Defenseman is analyzed, it's the most difficult position to play. When a goaltender is hyped, analyzed and said to be the saviour of the team, HIS position is the "hardest to play."

There are very few games where Fleury doesn't let in a weak one that he "wished he'd have back." He has a weak spot on the short-side and players normally aim there. He NEVER cuts off those cross-crease passes that a goalie of his "stature" are supposed to - ESPECIALLY when he knows himself that his defensemen are brutal. He plays the puck directly up the middle and loses the championship game for Canada.

You say name one starter in the NHL that is 21? Well, I'd say Crosby and Ovechkin "Start" every game?? Eric Staal. I think Patrick Roy was in his rookie season when he won the cup was he not? Defence21 I see your point, however, aren't these the EXACT same excuses we were making for MAF when he was 18??? They are. 3 years later and it's the same thing. Plus, MAF isn't up for the Calder this year - but a *rookie goaltender is in Lundqvist. He has stood so strong that he WON the Gold Medal and helped his team to the playoffs!!

Another thing about Fleury is he has absolutely NO ability to handle the puck esp. behind his own net. Every time he comes out - his defensemen yell at him - you can hear it on tv!! I truly think he is over-hyped. He was benched in Wilkes-Barre for Andy and there was a reason why the big club FINALLY gave him a chance to play in the NHL - because of all the media and fans moaning that he should be their goalie.

I'm not saying that he won't pan out - but he has to show some brilliance once in a while. I've seen guys like Tugnutt, Cujo, Belfour etc. steal games FREQUENTLY even with their sad defensive lapses -- this kid has to stand up and be a man now. He is 21.

Defence 21 wrote:
>>>I'm sorry but Joey Mullen isn't gonna cut it as a Championship coach. He has scored 500 goals. However he's smallish and has no balls. Dale Hunter is the biggest goon ever and that style still wins.<<<

Well, this team always preaches "DEVELOPMENT." Would you rather have some chick from New York city teach your players to try to win or one of the most feared players ever to teach these young players?? The Knights won how many games in a row and beat out Crosby in the finals. Now, that's a coach.

If you think players give it 100% in the first half of the season you're wrong. For one there are way too many games. To go and play 82 games full throttle you would be killing yourself and risk injury. That's why the Leafs always do good in the first half and suck in the 2nd!!! They do it every year. In football - it's a different story. There are only 16 games and if you lose 1 you could be done. In the NHL if you're playing a team from the Western conference, they are usually boring as hell because it's not a 4-point game. And don't even mention day games!!! Those things are horrendous to watch!!

Yep, the Pens might as well give up. Crosby is the only good player and the rest suck. Might as well mail it in for the next 10 years and start over. Right? Wrong.

You refused to read my post before responding. Ask anyone who knows anything about the sport of hockey, and you will find that they all agree that the msot difficult position to learn is goaltending, followed by defense, then forward. I asked you to name another 21-tear-old starter in the NHL...and you named Crosby and Ovechkin. Umm, they're forwards, not goalies. Look around the league and tell me how many forwards you see under the age of 21. Then look for defensemen under the age of 21. There will be fewer. Then look for goalies under 21. There will be even fewer. Why? Well, teams carry fewer defensemen and goalies than forwards, yes, but even break down the ratios and you will see that there are fewer young goalies then defensemen and forwards. Its the hardest position to learn, plain and simple.

Don't believe me? Hockeyfuture.com had Fleury ranked 7th of all prospects prior to the start of this season. He is no longer on the list as he has played too many games. Check out the list and tell me how many goalies are on that list now? I saw Lehtonen, Ward, Lundqvist, Toivonan, Emery and Price on that list. Not many. Oh yes, and by the way, you know more than Hockeysfuture.com writers, right? So I'm sure them having Fleury listed so high means crap if you say so, right? Wrong.

There's a reason he was taken first overall. There's a reason he has been touted by scouts, players and coaches as one of the best goalies ever to be drafted. And it's not because he sucks.

Lastly, I WOULD want Mullen coaching my team over a goon. Goons don't know hockey. They're goons. Hockey is hockey. I wouldn't want Mullen teaching players to fight, just as I wouldn't want a goon teaching hockey players to play hockey. Sounds odd, I know. Name a goon coaching in the NHL. Try it. You can't. Name a gifted hockey player coaching in the NHL. Wayne Gretzky. Hmm, weird.

Yup, David Volek's goal was a bad one to give up. Of course when it decides that you will not 3-peat - it's even a bigger goal to give up.

No, I'm not saying Fleury be damned. I'm asking you to point out ONE thing that he has done to prove that he is worthy of Patrick Roy comparisons as he was when he was drafted. He hasn't done a single solitary thing. He might make a big save here and there (which he does) but his knock is that he lets in a bad goal usually once a game!

Your defense brings up another point. Craig Patrick's tendency to draft AMERICAN DEFENCEMEN. Are we supposed to be waiting for this amazing RYAN WHITNEY to take off too?? We've waited a few years for the Miracle on Ice son (Orpik) to do something. How long does it take for these guys to develop?? They've been playing hockey their entire life!!! All you have to do is whack the puck high off the glass, position yourself correctly and get the odd shot on net. It's the same thing they've been doing for 20 years!!! How long are we going to wait for Orpik and Whitney to "develop??" Dion Phaneuf is kicking *** for Calgary in his rookie season. Explain that one?

Coaching is one of the most important things on a HOCKEY team. It's not like baseball where you KNOW to swing at a ball that's in your sweet spot. How come Jacques Lemaire is such a great coach? It was once said that the Pens wanted to model their game after Lemaire's style. They failed miserably. They're not tough enough. Haven't been in a LONG time. If Scotty was coaching, maybe there wouldn't be as many odd-man rushes? It's called matching lines. How come the Pens got Kasparaitis? Because Kaspar was always matched against Mario.

Listen. MAF has proven to be a bust so far. He has proven jack ****. Do the Penguins even have a goalie coach??? Can they afford one?? And who is he?? Does he just participate in the Country Club atmosphere too that the Penguins are so famous for??? We all "love" him because he has a nice smile and demeanor. He's great with the media. Like I've said before he can't stop a cross crease pass, he can't play the puck at ALL and his right side is weak. He has a pretty good glove. But, he hasn't proven a thing!! Tell me what he has proven???

Henrik came from the Swedish Elite League. Point? MOST players play in the AHL. What round was Lundqvist drafted?? ROUND 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 205 overall. So, MAF should be a heck of a lot better dontchachink??

Oh yea the 5 hole goal vs. Carolina. Forgot about that one... Another to add to his brilliant collection. Wasn't he the replacement for Caron?? Didn't fare much better now did he? Although the Penguins played like crap, they STILL out shot Carolina!!!!!!!! Where's the big save??

I'm not expecting Fleury to win the Stanley Cup. But when you're compared to Roy, there has to be some signs of brilliance don't you think??? His shot might come in the next tournament for Canada. Think he can step up??

OK. Let me understand this. Rimouski didn't have it that night???? A Championship game?????!!!!!!!! OMG. It's called shutting down CROSBY!!!! Sorry dude but defence wins championships - and unless Whitney turns into Brian Leetch, these American and Boston College dudes have to go. Time to start drafting from the O and the W. We need MEN on this team that wake at the crack of dawn to play hockey, not to go to Boston College and do some "book-learning."

And BTW, who would you rather have as coach. Sutter or Therrien?? Calgary "gets it." They are picking up GRINDERS. This isn't the new NHL. The calls are just as horrendous as they were before. You're starting to see 3-0 shutouts again. We were supposed to get Wes Walz. That would have been a great pick-up. There is no grit on this team. Roy when he's dressed but he's still not a heavyweight. Jon Sim was a player that should have never been let go. That guy would TAKE it to the net. This team is a bunch of scaredy cats - we all know it. Stop drafting Americans and get Canadian.

Yep, the Pens might as well give up. Crosby is the only good player and the rest suck. Might as well mail it in for the next 10 years and start over. Right? Wrong.

You refused to read my post before responding. Ask anyone who knows anything about the sport of hockey, and you will find that they all agree that the msot difficult position to learn is goaltending, followed by defense, then forward. I asked you to name another 21-tear-old starter in the NHL...and you named Crosby and Ovechkin. Umm, they're forwards, not goalies. Look around the league and tell me how many forwards you see under the age of 21. Then look for defensemen under the age of 21. There will be fewer. Then look for goalies under 21. There will be even fewer. Why? Well, teams carry fewer defensemen and goalies than forwards, yes, but even break down the ratios and you will see that there are fewer young goalies then defensemen and forwards. Its the hardest position to learn, plain and simple.

Don't believe me? Hockeyfuture.com had Fleury ranked 7th of all prospects prior to the start of this season. He is no longer on the list as he has played too many games. Check out the list and tell me how many goalies are on that list now? I saw Lehtonen, Ward, Lundqvist, Toivonan, Emery and Price on that list. Not many. Oh yes, and by the way, you know more than Hockeysfuture.com writers, right? So I'm sure them having Fleury listed so high means crap if you say so, right? Wrong.

There's a reason he was taken first overall. There's a reason he has been touted by scouts, players and coaches as one of the best goalies ever to be drafted. And it's not because he sucks.

Lastly, I WOULD want Mullen coaching my team over a goon. Goons don't know hockey. They're goons. Hockey is hockey. I wouldn't want Mullen teaching players to fight, just as I wouldn't want a goon teaching hockey players to play hockey. Sounds odd, I know. Name a goon coaching in the NHL. Try it. You can't. Name a gifted hockey player coaching in the NHL. Wayne Gretzky. Hmm, weird.

Yes, Fleury is 12 months younger - LOL. You sure can learn alot in those 12 months eh? But when you factor in that FLEURY has played 53 MORE GAMES than Lehtonen, that kind of offsets that mammoth 12 month difference in age doesn't it??? Plus, Lehtonen's numbers are WAY better!! Fact is, LEHTONEN is living up to the HYPE. He isn't choking and his team is contending for a playoff spot.

The next excuse you will use is that Atlanta has a better team. ya da ya da.

But before you do that and regurgitate everything hockeyfuture.com tells you, don't forget about CAM WARD. He was drafted 25th overall and is 13 and 5. And what's this ? Cam Ward is YOUNGER than Fleury???

But OH OH!! He's not a "Starter." Looks like the Canes have "developed" him better than the Pens have with Fleury.

Goaltending is the toughest position to play for someone who doesn't play goalie. For someone that thrives at a position, it might be the easiest. Can you picture Fleury as a Center?? Some say Center is harder to play because you have to backcheck and you still have to put the numbers up. That's a very hard thing to do when you're used to playing in a league like the QMJHL (firewagon hockey) and then are thrust into a role of backchecking (Alexandre Daigle...) I know I sure as hell couldn't do the splits like any goalie, but for someone who has done it his whole life, it's probably like riding a bike.

COACHING??? I'd say Ted Nolan would have fit this team really well. A coach doesn't necessarily need to be a "goon" so to speak - but he needs to understand that figure skaters won't win a SC. Wayne Gretzky??? I think he's doing a very good job with the team that he was dealt. You don't? Well, that too comes down from Management. Picking up CUJO was a great move. At the beginning of the year you would have thought the Pens would be a way better team than PHX. But who has the better record? Craig Patrick hires all of his family members to run this team. It's getting ridiculous.

I think there is something there that we (the hockey world) will never know. He made a very marginally talented Buffalo team overachieve, won the Jack Adam's Trophy and is now coaching for the Moncton WIldcats. Maybe he doesn't want the spotlight in the NHL?? Apparently he applied for the NJ coaching vacancy. Personally, I think it's something racial. Even before that game where the Quebec cowards were calling him names - I always thought there was something racial involved.

When you think about it - there aren't many "colored" people in the NHL. He is an Indian and he was one tough customer. Something is holding him back from being in the NHL.

All that I know is the Pens have to get rid of the "hire acquaintances first" philosophy and start hiring the RIGHT people for the job.

Hard to believe but it's almost been 10 years since Nolan has coached in the NHL!!! Time flies...

Morozov wrote:I think there is something there that we (the hockey world) will never know. He made a very marginally talented Buffalo team overachieve, won the Jack Adam's Trophy and is now coaching for the Moncton WIldcats. Maybe he doesn't want the spotlight in the NHL?? Apparently he applied for the NJ coaching vacancy. Personally, I think it's something racial. Even before that game where the Quebec cowards were calling him names - I always thought there was something racial involved.

When you think about it - there aren't many "colored" people in the NHL. He is an Indian and he was one tough customer. Something is holding him back from being in the NHL.

All that I know is the Pens have to get rid of the "hire acquaintances first" philosophy and start hiring the RIGHT people for the job.

Hard to believe but it's almost been 10 years since Nolan has coached in the NHL!!! Time flies...

I definitely agree with him being blackballed at first; there is no other explanation. But now? Couldn't it just be the fact that he hasn't been behind an NHL bench in 10 years?

If he's successful in juniors but cant get a job higher up, then maybe there's something to it still. I personally just don't see the attraction behind a guy that's been out of the league that long.

Moncton is #2 in the league. The Baby Pens are going to tank. Mark my words.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the issues of goaltending and whatnot. Your stats certainly are valid, no doubt. But there are many factors involved, including makeup of teams, personal learnign curve, etc. Fleury could be a slow developer. Most goalies are. And, yes, Ward does have a good record, but he also is playing behind the 2nd best team in the NHL. There's certainly a big difference between the Canes and the Pens. Lehtonen is a better comparison, in my opinion -- and that comparison definitely shows Fleury is behind the curve, at least compared to the Atlanta goalie. But, in a way, it's a moot point, as the Pens couldn't have had Staal, anyway.

And maybe Mullen isn't the right coach for the Baby Pens, but then again, maybe he is. It's very tough for a team to compete when the majority of its top players are not playing. Max Talbot has been getting first line minutes...not necessarily a positive statement about their firepower.

My question to you is, do you mean tank as in "quit," or tank as in "not have enough in them?" As I said in a previous post, this team will not tank voluntarily. There is no incentive to do so. However, if you mean tank as in plumit due to lack of skill, lack of preperation, lack of learning, then I say it's definitely possible -- and, in a way, already is happening.

Everyone needs to be paid. Most men have a hot blonde that they have to buy diamonds for.

I think it will be more like running into a team like the Phantoms last year that taught them a hard lesson in playing HARD. They were worked over all over the ice. Can WBS compete if they brought down all the players that were on their roster? Maybe. But do you remember how good Carter and Richards were? Not to mention Jon Sim.