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Re: Ranking of Captains

What does his shikai do, then? Serve them cookies? Confusing your opponents on this level isn't something you can do by talking and stuff like that, you actually need to change their perception!

Some of you lot need to start think just a bit more.
Shinji questioned Aizen when he used Kyouka Suigetsu (THAT IS AIZEN'S SHIKAI). Just because Aizen used it doesn't mean he used it's ability.
It's the same way Shunsui could use Katen Kyokotsu & never use it's ability.

THINK A LITTLE FOR YOUSELF DAMN IT!! Unless you think Hinamori thought "You really are young, you see a chance for victory & you leap to attack without any kind of plan, that is your greatest weakness Captain Hitsugaya" & "Shit" then all your arguments don't make sense. Aizen activated Kyouka Suigetsu (his zanpakuto's shikai) but it doesn't mean he had to us it's ability (or abilities because his shikai could have more abilities).

Re: Ranking of Captains

I think that Aizen actually did fought with all of the captains, he only switched to Hinamori at the very end. Otherwise Ichigo would have warned them much earlier. He switched position with her so fast that when Ichigo had the chance to yell out to them, it was too late. It wouldn't make sense if Soifon stabed Hinamori twice and failed to kill her, so I can at least say that the Aizen at that time was the real thing.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Shinji's shikai can't be figured out completely since part of the effects work with instinct like As Nodt ability. Aizen figured out part and countered the rest with the use of KS. I don't know why you people felt Aizen was under any obligation to tell the truth ...Maybe he did cancel Soifon's attack, maybe it hit air we'll never know conclusive unless Kubo tells us.

Most likely though all those attacks did not all hit Hinamori, she would have died.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by cracker

Most likely though all those attacks did not all hit Hinamori, she would have died.

Say that to the one who nearly got cut in half and still managed to survice (aka Hitsugaya)
Also, Kubo's habit of forgetting to draw wounds makes it harder to figure when he did use KS exactly or any of the sort, for example, in chapter 392, the wounds made by Shunsui when Hitsugaya stabbed him were visible, in the next pages it isn't anymore

So anyway, I don't know how the hell did Aizen pull that, but he trolled Gotei 13 with his KS from the very beginning, I'll take his words anytime anyday

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by Kay3795

THINK A LITTLE FOR YOUSELF DAMN IT!! Unless you think Hinamori thought "You really are young, you see a chance for victory & you leap to attack without any kind of plan, that is your greatest weakness Captain Hitsugaya" & "Shit" then all your arguments don't make sense. Aizen activated Kyouka Suigetsu (his zanpakuto's shikai) but it doesn't mean he had to us it's ability (or abilities because his shikai could have more abilities).

AGAIN THINK FOR YOURSELF!!

If a guy can make a fly look like a dragon (his own words), I'd definitely give the idea of him creating an illusionary speech a chance. It was Aizen talking, for sure. But he could have possibly altered the captains' visual senses and virtually appeared right in front of them.
Remember Komamura vs Aizen in the Sokyoku Hill. Komamura and Aizen were speaking, and apparently, Komamura was speaking to what his eyes perceived, an illusionary Aizen. That's pretty much the same.

I think that Aizen actually did fought with all of the captains, he only switched to Hinamori at the very end. Otherwise Ichigo would have warned them much earlier. He switched position with her so fast that when Ichigo had the chance to yell out to them, it was too late. It wouldn't make sense if Soifon stabed Hinamori twice and failed to kill her, so I can at least say that the Aizen at that time was the real thing.

Not necessarily.
He doesn't have to put another body in his place to create illusions. So, it could very well be possible that Soifon used Homonka on nothing.
Or maybe he was the real thing. The point is we cannot be so sure of that. I'm not taking Aizen's words literally.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by Zehahaha

Say that to the one who nearly got cut in half and still managed to survice (aka Hitsugaya)
Also, Kubo's habit of forgetting to draw wounds makes it harder to figure when he did use KS exactly or any of the sort, for example, in chapter 392, the wounds made by Shunsui when Hitsugaya stabbed him were visible, in the next pages it isn't anymore

So anyway, I don't know how the hell did Aizen pull that, but he trolled Gotei 13 with his KS from the very beginning, I'll take his words anytime anyday

I agree with the bold part.

As it concerns the Hits part, well shinigami are really durable lol... Kubo just doesn't have the guts to kill characters regardless of how much damage they take. Yeah Hits had his arm and leg cut off but Hiyori was horizontally bisected and still didn't die... "Good guys" are really hard to kill in Bleach...look at Byakuya

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Not necessarily.
He doesn't have to put another body in his place to create illusions. So, it could very well be possible that Soifon used Homonka on nothing.
Or maybe he was the real thing. The point is we cannot be so sure of that. I'm not taking Aizen's words literally.

But the real thing that makes it confusing is that Ichigo, who is not under the effect of KS didn't warn them... This make me think that he only switch place with Hinamori just before the panel in which he sees Shinji's zan and notice its effect. If they were fighting air all the time why didn't Ichigo warn them, of course we can all blame it on plot holes, but it's only natural that we try to find the most reasonable answer.

The debate is now about were the captains fighting air or the actual Aizen... In case I got off topic again -.-

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by River_Capulet

But the real thing that makes it confusing is that Ichigo, who is not under the effect of KS didn't warn them... This make me think that he only switch place with Hinamori just before the panel in which he sees Shinji's zan and notice its effect. If they were fighting air all the time why didn't Ichigo warn them, of course we can all blame it on plot holes, but it's only natural that we try to find the most reasonable answer.

I know that it looks odd for Ichigo to stand there and watch them stab Hinamori.
But as I said above, KS doesn't grant Aizen a magician's tricks. Thus, if he got stabbed by Kyouraku for real, he'd need a way to detach himself from the sword. And then, go down where Kira, Hisagi and Hinamori were present, take Hinamori, get back up, put Kyouraku's sword in her chest and get back down to take Hinamori's place at an instant. All because KS cannot alter reality, so, if he's stabbed in chest, he cannot change that fact and cannot free himself of that sword by KS's ability.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

I know that it looks odd for Ichigo to stand there and watch them stab Hinamori.
But as I said above, KS doesn't grant Aizen a magician's tricks. Thus, if he got stabbed by Kyouraku for real, he'd need a way to detach himself from the sword. And then, go down where Kira, Hisagi and Hinamori were present, take Hinamori, get back up, put Kyouraku's sword in her chest and get back down to take Hinamori's place at an instant. All because KS cannot alter reality, so, if he's stabbed in chest, he cannot change that fact and cannot free himself of that sword by KS's ability.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-...apter-391.html Shunsui pulled the sword out himself. I don't know if aizen is capable of being so fast that he can switch place with Hinamori before Ichigo can even react to warn the others, but it is the most reasonable theory for me to believe in.

Later on in the fight, when he fights with Yama, he doesn't have any visible would at the place Shunsui stabbed him. I can and will blame it on the Hogyoku ability to heal him, not really that convincing but still believable.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Aizen didn't say he was using KS from the beginning, his words were "When did you get the idea that I wasn't using KS?". The point of it was that by it's very nature, Kyoka Suigetsu works by making you think it isn't working, or at least that's how I interpreted his words. But he must have actually been fighting the Captains for at least a while before pulling his Hinamori trick, because a) The Captains sustained physical damage and b) Ichigo watched Aizen cutting them down with his own eyes.

I think Aizen tricked the Captains when Hitsugaya tried to trap his arm in that pillar of ice. Doing so probably obscured Aizen from Ichigo's view, allowing him to move unnoticed. Then again, Ichigo could have been screaming at them the whole time, but since they were under hypnosis, Aizen prevented them from hearing him. But yeah, even though Kubo does have a tendency to forget to draw injuries on people, the fact that both Aizen and Hinamori had no signs of being hit by either Sui Feng or Shunsui indicates that the two Captains were just attacking the block of ice. Aizen's little inner monologue does obscure things, though. I guess Aizen put Hinamori in his place between Shunsui's attack and Hitsugaya's, but tbh I think the whole thing was left deliberately ambiguous, just to demonstrate the mindfuckery of KS.

Anyway, the whole point of this thing was that Aizen's line about suppressing Sui Feng's technique with reiatsu means nothing because she never actually hit him. That was just an illusion. Whether or not Sui Feng's ability could be negated by sheer reiatsu is up in the air, but I like to think it couldn't. I know reiatsu counts in Bleach, but I don't think it's quite as simple as DBZ power levels. It's not the be-all end-all, abilities count regardless of strength.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by River_Capulet

http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-...apter-391.html Shunsui pulled the sword out himself. I don't know if aizen is capable of being so fast that he can switch place with Hinamori before Ichigo can even react to warn the others, but it is the most reasonable theory for me to believe in.

Later on in the fight, when he fights with Yama, he doesn't have any visible would at the place Shunsui stabbed him. I can and will blame it on the Hogyoku ability to heal him, not really that convincing but still believable.

Oh, it looks like he really has done that. My bad.
I thought he was restricted, either by blade or that huge ice block, so, it was impossible for him to make the switch. Never mind, then.

Re: Ranking of Captains

To be honest I think that when aizen fought the captains it was indeed aizen fighting right until hitsugaya began his attack that landed on hinamori. Aizen was fighting the captains until then and just as hitsugaya began his attack he shunpoed out of the way, grabbed hinamori and put her in the way of hitsugaya's attack. It doesn't really make sense that hinamori would have survived soifon's shikai after all. I guess the change could have been done by the time shunsui attacked but it does not seem as there was much time right then as there was right before hitsugaya's dash.

Re: Ranking of Captains

As I said, there is no necessity that all illusions created were related to Hinamori. There is a chance that Soifon's Shikai never contacted with anything but air. KS alters sense of touch, too, after all. And there is also the time issue. As skilled as he was at Shunpo, that move looks out of reach even for Aizen. Shunpo, take Hinamori, Shunpo, put Hinamori in your place, Shunpo, get back in Hinamori's place. I think the distance is too much to travel over three times until Hitsugaya's sword makes contact.

Truth be told, this is all too tough to get a hold of. Very open to debate. Had Hinamori not said "Shiro-chan", I would even doubt she got stabbed by Hitsugaya, since Aizen could have made it look like that just to enrage him, too.