Unseen influences in metal

4. Atheist, raised the ante for prog metal to exist6. Human Remains, created second generation hardcore, all nu-metal/metalcore is based on this

There's nothing "unseen" or controversial about the rest of the metal list, but these are (atleast as how you present them) bordering on ahistorical. Atheist is one of those bands everyone seems to love but, outside of busier rhythm sections and a thin veneer of jazziness, really hasn't had a lot of direct influence. In fact, Cynic are the likelier source of innovating/popularizing this particular tendency and Watchtower, Dream Theater and every other technical thrash band either predate or are contemporary with Atheist.

I'm also not really seeing the historical justification for listing any one band (let alone Human Remains) as the sole progenitor of nu-metal. For nu-metal it's more helpful to look at broader trends in mainstream hard rock/metal - funk metal, groove metal/post-thrash, earlier hip-hop w/metal samples and the overall grunge aesthetic are all more relevant developments imo. As far as hardcore goes, I think groups like Rorschach or Heroin among many others in the late 80's/early 90s shaped modern hardcore in a far more observable manner.

What I'd really like to know is which asshole was the first to shit out the obnoxious "secundal screech far up the neck + open power chord" riff.

Atheist is one of those bands everyone seems to love but, outside of busier rhythm sections and a thin veneer of jazziness, really hasn't had a lot of direct influence. In fact, Cynic are the likelier source of innovating/popularizing this particular tendency and Watchtower, Dream Theater and every other technical thrash band either predate or are contemporary with Atheist.

Cynic came much later in the game, wouldn't you say? Atheist put out their first album in 1989, and Cynic in 1993.

You even missed a generation of progressive rock bands and instrumentally literate heavy metal that came earlier. In particular, Voivod.

However, Atheist were a step above: death metal that integrated jazz, not heavy metal with jazz tacked on.

Human Remains came out of many years of hardcore coming closer to their style, but if you listen to that first CD, they created everything in finalized form that both nu-metal and metalcore use today. Can you think of a clearer expression? Stuff like Botch is similar but less developed, and just sounds like a harder Jawbreaker.

There is no novelty in this recipe for genius; it was practised by Carlyle in the time of our grandfathers, and by Nietzsche in the time of our fathers, and it has been practised in our own time by D. H. Lawrence. Lawrence is considered by his disciples to have enunciated all sorts of new wisdom about the relations of men and women; in actual fact he has gone back to advocating the domination of the male which one associates with the cave dwellers. Woman exists, in his philosophy, only as something soft and fat to rest the hero when he returns from his labours. Civilised societies have been learning to see something more than this in women; Lawrence will have nothing of civilisation. He scours the world for what is ancient and dark and loves the traces of Aztec cruelty in Mexico. Young men, who had been learning to behave, naturally read him with delight and go round practising cave-man stuff so far as the usages of polite society will permit.

- Bertrand Russell

Whatever your views on Lawrence's writing, he would have loved metal. The worship of ancient and dark gods, the revocation of civilization and a desire to return to barbarism. He must have influenced his readers in all areas of the arts to return to more primal mode of expression.

How very interesting, that, on the one hand, we have an advocate of strength and power (Lawrence), and, on the other hand, his critic is an advocate of softness and weakness (Russell). Surely this is isomorphic with conservative/liberal politics, Metal/Indie music, and the entire scenario of the hunter vs. the prey?

How very interesting, that, on the one hand, we have an advocate of strength and power (Lawrence), and, on the other hand, his critic is an advocate of softness and weakness (Russell). Surely this is isomorphic with conservative/liberal politics, Metal/Indie music, and the entire scenario of the hunter vs. the prey?

I actually didn't at first see that quote as a criticism of Lawrence (he did call him a 'genius'), but I can see why one would think so. Both of them were complex characters. Lawrence was a very sensitive and compassionate Christian, and from his novels seemed both in awe at what he saw in the human soul, and troubled by it at the same time. I don't know much about Russell except that he was a pacifist, and a fine writer and thinker. I usually find these simple dichotomies between people and ideologies rather too monochrome to be give much insight.

Cynic came much later in the game, wouldn't you say? Atheist put out their first album in 1989, and Cynic in 1993.

You even missed a generation of progressive rock bands and instrumentally literate heavy metal that came earlier. In particular, Voivod.

1) Voivod gets to be lumped in with bands that predates Atheist. I suppose it's also worth pointing out their experimental turn didn't really manifest itself until Killing Technology in 1987. 2) We're talking about influence here and earlier release dates don't always tell the whole story. Focus has had a more visible impact than Atheist even though both are roughly about as well known. One need look no further than the current crop of tepid tech death:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mesr2siegRghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z_V1nKy7cM

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Human Remains came out of many years of hardcore coming closer to their style, but if you listen to that first CD, they created everything in finalized form that both nu-metal and metalcore use today. Can you think of a clearer expression? Stuff like Botch is similar but less developed, and just sounds like a harder Jawbreaker.

Watch this amazing feat of nu-metal historical scholarship:

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IGN For Men: A lot has been written over the years about how you guys reinvented the sound of metal for the GenX crowd. Yet when I listen to your records I hear a gritty, garage funk band buried at the core of all the heaviness...

Munky: Well that's because, I mean when me and Fieldy and David first started playing together we were 17-years old, 18. No, I guess me and Fieldy were 18 and David was like 16. And that's...the first Faith No More record because everyone in Bakersfield...

IGN For Men: The one without Mike Patton and the original version of "We Care A Lot," right?

Munky: The one without Mike Patton, right, the one with Chuck Mosley. Because that had like crazy basslines following the drums, 'doon-doon-doon-koosh-dooga-dooga-doon-kerr-dung-dung.' And the bass and the drums followed each other. And the guitar would do a melody over the top., you know what I mean? And we were just like 'That is the baddest!' And that's basically what we based our sound on. Because we were so influenced by it.

I also stand by my previous post wrt hardcore/metalcore. Trying to pin it on any one band is a fool's errand, especially given the rather incestuous nature of that whole scene and that everyone seemingly stumbled onto defining elements of the syntax literally within months of each other. It makes no musico-historical sense to me in positing Human Remains as the stylistic pivotal moment in modern hardcore.