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Dan Savage uses the phrase "price of admission" to talk about the things that wouldn't be our preference but that we're willing to accept to be with the person/people we want to be with. A temporary suspension of contact with other women seems like a perfectly reasonable price of admission to a new relationship to me. If it was intended to be a permanent thing, especially since she can't/won't commit to more involvement in your life, I'd see that as problematic. But many people need special rules while they're adjusting to a new poly situation.

It's "fair" to ask for whatever you want or need. But if you don't want/need casual sex with strange women right now, why *not* concede that if it's what she needs? I think your choices make perfect sense, as long a she's being a thoughtful partner, genuinely working to give you the freedoms you want, and being there for you to the extent that she can.

It's true that a close friendship with sex that evolves into a relationship really doesn't look much different at first. But in time, for me at least, I found that making the distinction came to make a big difference.

This is why I love posting all of my confusing feelings on here... All of your opinions, perceptions, and insights really help me focus and sort through what I really feel.

She does want to work on getting comfortable with me playing without her. We are HOPING to either be able to go to the club together again or to find another couple/single woman to join us just so we experience it together first. I find this totally fair. I'm not necessarily happy about not being able to play with other women since I will probably go to the club with just my husband before all of us can go again, but I'm not upset about it either. She and her husband have never played separately so this type of situation is new to her. Since Keith and I do play separately, it was easier for me to accept the idea of her being with others without me around. I'm trying to remind her that sex is not what makes her special to me and sex is not what makes me special to her, so it is not a threat if we have sex with other women. We will see how long it takes for it to sink in.

@AnnabelMore - I am already seeing the differences when we are actually together; it is when we are apart that nothing feels different. I know there are many reasons for this, and it is just something I have to adjust my expectations of. I've always pretty much been the center of attention in my relationships and it is just an adjustment to having this more equal set up. Her husband is actually being amazing through this whole thing making sure she and I get to have alone time, helping me plan a surprise date for her (going to dinner and a play in a few weeks), etc. I think he is more comfortable with this whole shift than we are and is trying to gently push us along.

Been reading here for a few months without posting, but some of these comments really struck a chord with me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by km34

I am just struggling with my urge to define things. She seems so hesitant to discuss emotions or how we're going to handle possibly difficult situations that it worries me. I'm usually the one who avoids serious discussions so having a relationship with someone who is going to be like that is going to be hard.

I did this too at the start of a relationship this fall. In part I viewed it as healthy; I was trying to compensate for, or avoid the problems I'd had in, a previous relationship outside of my marriage where meaning was never discussed (I tried!). But ultimately I think I was trying too hard, and too early. I didn't really know where the relationship was going, or how we would manage it, and this unsettled me, but expecting my boyfriend to have those answers was unrealistic; he couldn't be sure about where it was going either. We were (are) really still getting to know each other and discovering what we can be to each other.

It has been really interesting for me to read here of the different stages of relationships, which I hadn't really recognized before. But it also makes it even clearer to me how hard it is to predict where a relationship will go. It's just very hard to know how either person will react when that initial energy wears down. And so it isn't really possible to make an honest promise about feelings in the future. You can discuss feelings now, or behavioral guidelines for the future, but there's only so much that can be pinned down.

If I remember right, you're generally ok when you're with her, you just question everything when you're not (been there!). I know it's hard, but maybe try to focus more on remembering and trusting in that positive time. It is easy for the insecurities/loneliness/neediness to start feeling overwhelming when you are alone, but how much do they really reflect the relationship between the two of you, and how much of them are simply your own issues that you need to grapple with?

Not that you can't acknowledge those issues, either to her or to others in your group, in fact I find acknowledging them does help to defuse them. But grappling on your own can also help you to acknowledge them from a calmer place, which I think makes them less likely to feel like a relationship crisis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by km34

I am still struggling with whether or not I am too needy for this situation. It made me feel great when she said she missed me on the second day of her trip. It made me feel like crap when - after I told her that it wasn't that long of a trip, but that I was so excited to see her - she comes back with 'it was over too soon.' I understand it was only 4 and a half days or so with her family and if I were her I would totally wish I could have spent more time there, but couldn't she have at least acted like she was looking forward to seeing me too?

But she was honest! Isn't that better? Yes, she needs to be considerate, but she did say she missed you; she just has other people who are important too. Maybe flip the positions in your head - would you want to feel you had to censor your feelings? You acknowledge that you would feel the same way about your family

Don't mean to be hard on you at all here; I do understand the neediness issue. But you know that you will not be her whole life, no matter what, so learning to accept the importance of others to her, rather than feeling undermined by them, seems likely to leave you a lot more comfortable.

@wildflowers - I get where you're coming from, and I wasn't really upset at her reaction, I just feel like she could have worded it a bit more kindly. The next few comments she made about the trip were that 4 nights on an air mattress were more than enough and that even though she'd love to spend more time with her family, she was sooo ready to come home. I suppose I just felt a little put out that her bed seemed to rank higher in the 'things I missed' category than I did, too. lol

As for defining the relationship... I know that isn't going to happen. I've accepted it, but every once in a while my discomfort of not knowing where I stand creeps back in. For now, I am trying to follow the advice of enjoying the journey without worrying about the destination.

So... On an unrelated note, I have come up with the new names for people! Obviously, my husband Keith will remain Keith. M will now become Mario, named after Super Mario Bros since we always talk about making a porn based on it (don't ask lol). F will now be Fiona because we watched all of the Shrek movies not too long ago and it's the only other F name I can think of. Yay!

Anyway, we did our Christmas gift exchange last night... We were supposed to do it on Tuesday, but Mario was sick, so we postponed. Here is a run down on what we got each other and the reactions:

From me to Mario: Nina Hartley's Guide to Double Penetration - he flippin' loved it! We talked about DP not too long ago, we watched something with Nina Hartley in it not too long ago, AND he has this weird little man crush on Evan Stone who also happens to be in this. My guess is this will be watched VERY soon (like next time we are over there).

From Keith to Mario: Ghost in the Shell on Blu Ray - Also LOVED. They had fought over this movie when we all went to a Borders that was closing so Mario was excited to finally get it. Keith and I are getting rid of all of our movies, and he didn't think it was right to not let Mario have it.

From Keith and me to Mario: a Lord of the Rings pez set. We have been talking about having a LOTR marathon for MONTHS so maybe this will get us to actually make it happen. Mario also thought this was fantastic and is going to see if he can find another one so that he can open the one we got and keep one for a souvenir. lol

From Fiona and Mario to me: 2 'Mammoth Books of...' one is Vampire erotica and one is paranormal erotica. I thought it was great, because this is what she likes to read and I always kind of make fun of her, so hopefully I will like it so we have something else in common.

From Fiona to me: a handmade bracelet - She made me a really pretty pink bracelet with a heart clasp. It is really cute, and I love that she made it (she has never made any jewelry before, she just thought I'd like it so she did it).

From Fiona and Mario to Keith: A crop and a book on BDSM - the book actually has a rubber-like cover which is cool. He loved it.. He sat there reading it the rest of the evening while the rest of us watched tv/talked.

From me to Fiona: Tickets to go see 'Debbie Does Dallas' the stage version - OMG... She SQUEALED. Literally. There was jumping up and down and giggling and all around excitement. I mean, I knew she'd love it, but the reaction was amazing. She and I are going later in January for dinner and the show.

From Keith and me to Fiona: The first 2 seasons of Diary of a Call Girl - once again, vast excitement. Apparently she's always wanted to watch the show. lol

So, it was a great night. I was feeling kinda sick (mild version of what Mario had - that's what I get for helping take care of him) so we didn't stay late. Everyone is super excited about New Year's though, and I think it's sweet that Mario still insists that my family is a necessary part of his life now. lol Fiona is excited to get to meet more of my cousins and such that she hears me talk about/sees on FB. I am excited because Fiona and I get to share a bed again. I'm not sure why, but she is the only person I've ever slept with that I actually cuddle with once I'm asleep. I do wish I could be more of a cuddler... Keith doesn't cuddle either, though, so we sleep well together.

Wow, I loved all your gifts to each other. Even though gifts don't score high in the love language test for me, I really love getting people something they like. It must have been particularly great seeing Fionas reaction over the tickets. Also, here's something for you to concentrate on next time the freaking out about 'where this is going' starts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by km34

From Fiona to me: a handmade bracelet - She made me a really pretty pink bracelet with a heart clasp. It is really cute, and I love that she made it (she has never made any jewelry before, she just thought I'd like it so she did it).

Doesn't sound like she's too uncertain about being with you and her feelings towards you. Maybe having a reminder on your wrist can be a physical reminder about all of it, all the concrete things through which she shows her love for you every time you're together, and you can use it to stop the insecurities. Not because a symbol alone is enough, but because it can remind you of all you do have together..

I LOVE giving gifts. I like receiving them (who doesn't?) but I get insane amounts of pleasure from giving people something they love so it was a good night for me.

@rory - I felt the same way about the bracelet... She'd randomly asked me my favorite color a couple of weeks ago "just to see if she thought right." Turns out it was so she could make sure the bracelet would be a color I like. When I made a comment about not knowing she makes jewelry she told me this is the only piece she's ever made, so it made me feel super special. I suppose I should probably start either wearing my wedding ring or some other piece of jewelry that Keith has given me over the years since I'm probably not going to take this bracelet off for at least a month... lol