keylock71:ThrobblefootSpectre: While I can't agree with the curriculum, few jobs in the US depend on solid understanding of evolution. Sadly these kids are probably better prepared for a job in science or engineering than the 80 percent the students in the public school system who can't read.

80% of kids in public school can't read?

Seriously! That's unbelievable, I literally can not believe that almost half of American kids can't read

kazikian:I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?

I think the thing that hits me most is the "were you there" refutation, which would single-handedly nullify most of history.

Seriously though, I would tell them that I would much rather dinosaurs have lived millions of years ago rather than having to accept that God planted millions of fossils with the express purpose of trying to dick with scientists and test the true faith of believers.

/I mean really, do you WANT your deity to have the mentality of a psychotic child?

grxymkjbn:Uchiha_Cycliste: Just to be sure I'm clear here, I have never taken any philosophy classes.

Neither have I taken any philosophy classes... but I have read extensive synopsis of all the major schools of philosophy... and when considered objectively, I can only conclude that they're all shiat. (shrug)

Study epistemology, if you're truly interested. The mind is a fascinating topic.

Oh my god, no no no. Epistemology is the study of knowledge (i.e., what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for belief). Traditional epistemology has practically nothing to do with "the mind" at all. Here's an example, from a leading author in the field: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0415552982

It's the kind of material that can be interesting to chat with your friends about for an hour or so, but trying to read academic papers in the subject makes me want to do what Uchiha_Cycliste's green cartoon guy was doing above.

If you want to learn about the "mind" and you INSIST on reading philosophy, then the only thing I can suggest is: http://www.amazon.com/dp/026253200X. And even then, I'd always recommend that people avoid philosophy... there's a gazillion awesome books in the disciplines of psychology and neuroscience.

Calipataa:PC LOAD LETTER: When we are able to move to the stars, "true" Christians will stay behind because they are tied to the Earth. Problem solved eventually.

I'm not a Christian, but I kind of like the earth - are you going to leave me alone here with these crazies?

Every one of those alien worlds will be inhabited -- by a Mormon and his wives and children (assuming he "seals" his wives rather than letting them go to Hell in favour of some new trophy wives. They will happily inbreed incestuously for all eternity. (Sounds like the way humanity got this world: Man, Woman, Apple, Incest for the next 6,000 years. And they wondered why their life expectancy dropped off from hundreds of years to a few decades.)

So it's really po-tay-toe, po-tat-oh.

The Roman Catholic Church has a contingency plan for just such an occurence. Since they burned Giovanno Bruno at the stake for (among other heresies) suggesting that there is life and intelligent beings on other worlds, they've been thinking his proposal over, and have come up with plans to convert the heathen aliens should they be discovered or discover us. Should they prove to be Roman Catholics already, there will be no need. Jesus will have ensured that they got the memo.

Many fundamentalists believe in UFOS but believe they are piloted by Satan's armies of demons. They will simply attempt to wage war on the aliens. Who will kill us all.

And this, Mr. Fermi, is why the neighbors do not call us. They don't want to disturb the Loonies any further, to borrow a happy turn of phrase from paraplegic cartoonist John Callahan. (Creator of Quads. Yaaaaay! A Canada-Australia Coproduction of one of America's greatest Gimp geniuses.)

It sounds like philosophy begins to step on the toes of: discrete mathematics probability theory, algorithms and intractable problems; but probably jut exposes only what is necessary to continue with the philosophy. Nasty, nasty math. Ony class i've ever taken where 2 weeks in I said:And dropped the class. Multi-var calc was a cake walk in comparison.

mephox:Better yet, ask them to point to the exact passage in the bible that says the earth was created on such and such date. They can't because its not there.

Actually, it's about a dozen or so passages all in all. The time spans given for separating various events can be added up to get to the time between creation and the return from Babylonian exile, which then dates to external chronologies.

Of course, measurement uncertainties leave about two decades of uncertainty (assuming conventional "significant figures" precision), and there's some internal inconsistencies -- but those are separate questions from there being at least one answer from the Bible.

Benchmark SC.3.N.3.1:Recognize that words in science can have different or more specific meanings than their use in everyday language; for example, energy, cell, heat/cold, and evidence. Benchmark SC.6.N.3.1:Recognize and explain that a scientific theory is a well-supported and widely accepted explanation of nature and is not simply a claim posed by an individual. Thus, the use of the term theory in science is very different than how it is used in everyday life. Benchmark SC.912.N.3.1:Explain that a scientific theory is the culmination of many scientific investigations drawing together all the current evidence concerning a substantial range of phenomena; thus, a scientific theory represents the most powerful explanation scientists have to offer.

kazikian:I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion.

It's the same as with any kind of science-religion incompatibility: it depends whether you're dealing with them as bodies of knowledge or abstract methodologies. While potentially compatible, in particular instance they can collide.

Ranger Rover:So what's the right answer? How do we balance these objectives?

Social but not legal sanction. Have religious "education" be legal, but publicly mocked whenever the civilized world hear about it.

grxymkjbn:But logic is not a creation of humans, it's merely an astute observation OF realty.

It's not limited to talking about reality; it's more a means for connecting ideas.

grxymkjbn:The first law of logic is called the law of identity and states that a thing IS what it IS: A=A.

I prefer starting with the Commutativity of Logical Inclusive Disjunction. (The reflexive property usually can get derived from other more necessary axioms.)Try putting down the Ayn Rand and looking up the proof of the Robbins Conjecture.

that bosnian sniper:shortymac: There is absolutely no reason why you can't believe in God and also acknowledge the scientific basis of evolution. NONE!

You try telling a fundie, "hey, what if natural selection and evolution are the means through which God acts on Earth to enact His will?". The look you get in response is somewhere between "you raped my cat", "you drank my last beer while nuking Israel", and "did you just speak Old Church Slavonic?".

I know I've tried, I gotta keep believing that by being polite and with gentle direction I can save people from the WHARGARBL.

kazikian:I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?

It's so cool, in fact, that no god is needed to accomplish such a feat. How cool is that?

Uchiha_Cycliste:keylock71: ThrobblefootSpectre: While I can't agree with the curriculum, few jobs in the US depend on solid understanding of evolution. Sadly these kids are probably better prepared for a job in science or engineering than the 80 percent the students in the public school system who can't read.

80% of kids in public school can't read?

Seriously! That's unbelievable, I literally can not believe that almost half of American kids can't read

Multiple members of my family get yearly membership passes to the creation "museum" in Kentucky... Thankfully, I've never been there, and wouldn't last long if i was forced to go...

Seriously, they have a room labeled "The world without God", which features various displays like a newspaper that headlines "Children attacked by packs of wolves" and a video clip of a mother telling her 12 year old to get an abortion, Another newspaper article that reads "Homosexuals recruiting children" and a bunch of other stupid nonsense...

When my parents showed me pictures of this i turned to them and said, "Wait, isn't the whole point of fundamentalism that you believe God created the earth? Should the "World without God" exhibit actually just be a pitch black room with sensory deprivation systems so you can't see or hear ANYTHING? You know since had there been no god there would BE no world?

Ranger Rover:Steak_Cake_Sause: So to me the best anyone can say is 'we dont know.' But that doesnt imply a creator, especially one as specific as the God of Abraham. Thats why I'm an atheist.

Well said (the whole comment, not just what I'm quoting here). I think that's the heart of it, and we just take different routes to get at the same essence. I am an agnostic. I don't know anything, and that's what (I hope) separates me from the religious nutjobs who think they do and want to prescribe/proscribe the actions of everyone else based on that. Can't remember the last time I was on the phone with God and he told me what exactly he wanted, or how I should make the life of anyone who disagreed a living hell. Hell, maybe there are seven-two virgins waiting for the 9/11 bombers. Or maybe we do just all return to the earth and become compost. I don't know, and I don't aim to act like I know and regulate the actions of other people on the basis of it.

Lsherm:Also, this apparently is a very small private school, so mock, but there shouldn't be outrage. Stupid is as stupid does.

Yeah, but these are the private schools my Governor (Jindal) and legislature is appropriating tax dollars to without holding them to the same standards as public schools. One school in question consists of windowless portable buildings and a strong curriculum of Jesus DVDs. I really, really wish I were making this up.

The state is so poor in education that the argument of allowing parents to send their kids to sectarian or snake-handling schools in order to achieve a better quality of education is what drove this. But let me reiterate - these schools are not being held to any standard, and as of right now are licking chops waiting to bilk the government for as much money as however many students they can cram in.

Look, I went to an awesome Catholic school. We were taught the Classics, religion in not such a fervent light, ACTUAL SCIENCE, and though I was told there would be no math, we got real versions of that, too. But many of the schools lining at Jindal's trough are fly-by-night sh*tholes that issue tests like the one alleged here. And once again - because I can't stress this enough - the voucher program was wildly popular even when it became clear that many of these schools weren't being audited for effectiveness and funds the way the public ones are.

This state breaks my heart. New Orleans, for all her problems, is actually a wonderful cultural center and among the most unique places in the States. Blue as all hell, too - even the white folks. The suburbs, while Red, are at least populated by people who have decent jobs and merely want their kids to succeed in a properly academic religious school like my parents did. But then there's the rest of the state wanting that one asshole Sunday school teacher we all had as children to be responsible for teaching their kids full-time. With Jindal trying to position his TeaPubican cred for 2016, they got it. And once he starts really ramping up the speeches, he'll claim credit for giving Louisiana families the opportunity of giving their kids a quality education while no one in the 'liberal media' will bother to mention that it's often about Noah saving the ecosystem instead of those kids being taught fundamental life science.

Fark Louisiana. But please don't nuke my city from orbit. We're pretty cool. Hell, it's Jazz Fest right now. You'd be killing hundreds of thousands of tourists who are just here to Get Down.

Ranger Rover:Death Eats a Cracker: kazikian: I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?

Just stop.

Why? This seems like a completely reasonable worldview. That leads to the ability to teach kids basic scientific principles while adhering to the glory of the creator, whatever that may mean to individual people. Really, at this point, what better could you ask for? That we stomp out freedom of religion altogether? I think kazikian's statement gets to the heart of the best of all compromises, (although doctrine means it may not bear out in all individual cases) - that science is taught in the science classroom and religion in the religion classroom (or church). Let smart kids draw their own conclusions - they will.

Part of this worldview that you speak of consists of ancient mythology created by people who didn't know where the sun went at night.

Yep, in a heartbeat. Tell me you prefer your sad little patch of earth over interstellar travel, and you get the perfunctory "Well, have a good one," as I blast off to infinity, and beyond...

I might change my mind if there are any real M-class planets out there, with crazy space mangoes growing on the space mango trees and herds of 6-legged space giraffes running majestically across the space savannas, crazy sexy blue-stripey space people, etc. If I have to live in a spaceship, I think I'd get claustrophobic after a while. And if all you've got to offer is places like Mars, well, it's still a whole less hospitable than Antarctica. :)