Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Right, I guess that has more to do with how you are trying to get their body to react, in which direction you want the center to move.

But in the interest of keeping yourself safe, even a weak strike, if thrown without some knowledge of correct striking form can lead to damage in the hand and wrist.

For the weak strike, if you hold to the traditional closed fist strike with the knuckles, on a hard target, yes.

I don't know what types of strikes are outlined originally in Aikido, but for this discussion an open hand strike for example to or toward a soft can be very deceptive and effective even if it is a weak strike.

If you really look at it a effective strike to a soft target really doesn't involve allot of skill, and doesn't result injury. Unlike the traditional closed fist hand strike to a hard target improperly used results in injury. A open hand strike is more deceptive and more likely to get a reaction that will open or move the center. If you use a traditional close fist the reaction will be highly defensive because it is so recognizable, thus, the center is less likely to be accessible or moved. Most likely the defensive body reaction to an on coming typical close fist leads to protecting the center from moving in a bad way. We are talking about a single static hit, and not a wild barrage of flying fists traveling like a speeding freight train?

Jujutsu, which is why it should be the foundation for good aikido. Then when the super subtle stuff doesn't go down like you planned, you still have something besides good intentions...

Eloquentlty put. I really must get round to it.

Does anyone ever get the feeling that we're working backwards? This isn't a criticism, I rather like it. But aikido is an art of such high ideals that training tends not to focus on when we fail to smoothly lead our attackers mind and body into a just-stern-enough lesson on the error of their ways. So once you get a little way along the aikido road, "what if..." becomes an inevitable question for anyone who wants martial and art.

Roy Dean mentioned in a BJJ YouTube that you learn the moves, but it's the in-between-moves stuff that's really important. Same thing here, I think. I have found that teaching beginners who don't follow is a good way to start problem-solving, and can teach you about atemi opportunities.

On that note, regarding the scenario, a quick atemi wouldn't hurt (you, that is).

But aikido is an art of such high ideals that training tends not to focus on when we fail to smoothly lead our attackers mind and body into a just-stern-enough lesson on the error of their ways. So once you get a little way along the aikido road, "what if..." becomes an inevitable question

And i think its at this point where you've been studying for a while and you are still asking the what if question, where you should take another art up to compliment the Aikido.

Just the way the original poster was describing the fight scenario, suggests to me too much thinking going on here. This is a common Aikido mindset, i had this. In a real fight situation, REAL fighting, it just doesnt work like that at all.

You definately wont have time to apply techniques in the way described. You will probably be smacked in the nose by then. It's happened to me lol... trying to use "Aikido Techniques" In a real fight. Don't bother.

Some Aikido Techniques may come through in a scuffle or confrontation, but never focus on using them in a proper street confrontation. Just see what natuarally comes out. Again, too much thinking going on.

After Aikido, i would say take up another art, something that actually teaches you to hit people back. A lot of people out there don't really care much for the Aikido founders principles of peace.

And i think its at this point where you've been studying for a while and you are still asking the what if question, where you should take another art up to compliment the Aikido.

Just the way the original poster was describing the fight scenario, suggests to me too much thinking going on here. This is a common Aikido mindset, i had this. In a real fight situation, REAL fighting, it just doesnt work like that at all.

You definately wont have time to apply techniques in the way described. You will probably be smacked in the nose by then. It's happened to me lol... trying to use "Aikido Techniques" In a real fight. Don't bother.

Some Aikido Techniques may come through in a scuffle or confrontation, but never focus on using them in a proper street confrontation. Just see what naturally comes out. Again, too much thinking going on.

After Aikido, i would say take up another art, something that actually teaches you to hit people back. A lot of people out there don't really care much for the Aikido founders principles of peace.

I think you are stressing an important point. If one thinks of techniques in a fight, then he is not practicing any M.A. during that fight.
In any fight, the martial artist "body" should respond with techniques the same automatic way it responds when you wish to go somewhere (only toddlers have to think on placing their legs, adults simply walk to their destination without thinking on how to walk).

This is a general truth, of all M.A. Aikido is no different, if anything, the Aikido path was knowingly chosen as one of the more difficult ones to implement. In Aikido most techniques are responsive and should change all the time as the situation changes, some arts are less dependent on this at low levels.

When done correctly, the techniques used in Aikido are very efficient, even against resisting opponents. If you are know enouugh enough (I am not but my teacher is) you can see variations of the mostly the same techniques, but with less potential for harm used in Judo contests. One should point out these techniques existed and were tested and adopted by multiple Jujutsu styles, long before Aikido. Calling them "Aikido technique" is vain.

However, if you can force your opponent into a technique, you are probably not in a S.D. situation, since you are the stronger person.
In my Sensei dojo, we tell trainees who act this way, and do the techniques correctly that they are doing nice Jujutsu, and should now progress to Aikido. Aikido is aimed at the situation in which you really are the weaker person, and size is also on his side. The principles of Aiki are supposed to give you this edge.
Thus, you need to be very cool and keep your calm while you utilize your technical superiority combined with the principles of Aiki to inverse a very difficult situation you would have been at, had you not been such a superb Martial Artist.
Oh, and of course, pray for luck and that the other guy is not as talented and experianced, otherwise you may find you really lost all advantages.

As for the original question - Aikido comes after Aikido, and even more - in between. Many friends told me the qualuty of any martial artist is mostly seen in his foot work, between techniques. By foot work they did not mean kicks - rather, movement. And again - Aikido is no different.

Cheng Hsin has a range of interactive "games" which I think can be very instructive and applicable to aikido.

- one person tries to do a technique/throw etc and the other is not allowed to block but only to "yield" or receive in such a way as to nullify the technique. As soon as one is successfully applied (usually not that many seconds!), you swap roles.

- both people can try to do techniques on each other, but again you are not allowed to block a technique

- blocking is then allowed.

Note that all techniques must be done with effortless power - no muscling. People usually don't do the final level until they have quite a bit of experience as it otherwise degenerates into muscle contest.

There are other variations on this, I am scratching the surface above. However, it really does teach flow and being in the moment, and adapting from one moment to the next to what your partner is really doing.

I've read alot of posts lately about resistance and atemi. After watching hours of video of the founder, I notice that because of the demonstrative nature of the footage (i assume), technique seems to have the desired result the first time, every time. Since we and our technique is all fallible, what would you call what you would do if a technique fails to produce the result desired? This question is being asked in the context of an unavoidable violent encounter, not during cooperative training on the mat.

If thats too vague, hypothetically, someone swings at your face (insert attack of your choice here). The situation for applying ikkyo (insert technique of your choice here) presents itself. You perform the ikkyo (chosen technique), but for some reason (maybe their balance was not taken or they were able to regain it) you find yourself holding the arm of an angry individual, hellbent on your demise, who is now more prepared to resist further technique.

Would you maintain proper posture and alignment and see what possibilities develop? Would you wait for them to launch another attack?

Would you throw atemi in order to open more possibilities for aikido
technique (and/or to break person's resistance) or maybe throw atemi and just keep striking until the threat was neutralized?

Would you revert to technique from another art you've studied, possibly some kind of stand up grappling (maybe like judo)? Would you throw atemi in preparation for this kind of technique?

Would you call a "do over"?

Would you still call it Aikido when it was all said and done?

I realize the actual response will vary according to which, if any, other martial arts you have studied, but i'm more interested in how you would classify your reaction to the worst case scenario, your aikido technique fails at a crucial moment.

In other words, what picks up where Aikido leaves off (if you believe it's possible for aikido to "leave off" at all)?

W.

Only way to find out is practice your aikido with an uncooperative partner or uke..... no one can say what they will do because its all hypothetical...

Its practised that way in Shodokan/Tomiki aikido kyogi.... albeit with some restrictions.....

After Aikido, i would say take up another art, something that actually teaches you to hit people back. A lot of people out there don't really care much for the Aikido founders principles of peace.

I think that's the wrong way round. First learn a more traditional way of fighting (i.e., one that to a non-negligible part relies on having an "opponent" and hitting them). Then you can start to learn Aikido.

I know I started the wrong way, too -- I only had about a year of some more competitive fighting before starting Aikido. As I progress, I tend to believe I start understanding why Taiso required some basic familiarity (at least shodan) with some other martial art from aspiring students.

I'd say look at the different scenarios. Imo, there's ony a few (of course, we could all get lucky):

1. Both have no experience- somebody could accidentally get hurt.

2. one has alot and one has very little- Obviously the one with alot will win.

3. Both have some- again, somebody might accidently get hurt. Usually the one with the stronger will wins.

4. Both has alot. This is what we train for, where, up against a hardened criminal or a punk kid MMA monster on steriods, you'll need alot more than Aikido to help you. You have to be prepared to bite off extremities, scratch out eyes, poke out eyes, beat to unconsciousness, cheat in whatever way, etc., to win. Not to mention have great stamina and will to live. The key to survival is to NOT run out of gas, NOT get knocked out, NOT get on bottom of a guard, NOT get surrounded, etc. If you do, you're done. LIke that scene in Saving Private Ryan, in the upstairs with the American soldier from Brooklyn and the German, with the bayonette, there's nothing scarier than realizing that your opponent is stronger than you and is about to kill you and there's not a darn thing you can do about it.

Also, fwiw, I would NOT rely on BJJ to finish a fight. Most good fighters nowadays knows BJJ. Besides, at no time do you want to find yourself on the ground, especially on your back.

Btw, my supplement to Aikido is a CWP and 9 rds of .45cal hollowpoint. There's NO WAY I'm gonna go toe to toe with a kid half my age or a hardened institutionalized felon.

Sorry, but until Aikido becomes a complete MA, able to defeat all others, a supplement is needed. It's all well and good to speak about spiritual stuff, like Zen and defeating yourself, etc, but the hard reality is if you don't take out your opponent, he's gonna take you, right now. Before you can say,"Please, don't."

Last edited by GeneC : 12-13-2008 at 04:20 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

In my limited experiance what comes "after" is weapons work preferably Iaido or Kenjutsu. If you can learn incorporate the sword into your practice you will learn timing.. Irimi..Maai and Kokyu at speed Learning how to enter Ken te Ken has done wonders for Randori. The tip of a sword is a great training aid for the advancement of ones Aikido especially with learning how to handle the striking arts (since that seems to be where this conversation may be headed. LOL)

I'd say look at the different scenarios. Imo, there's ony a few (of course, we could all get lucky):

1. Both have no experience- somebody could accidentally get hurt.

2. one has alot and one has very little- Obviously the one with alot will win.

3. Both have some- again, somebody might accidently get hurt. Usually the one with the stronger will wins.

4. Both has alot. This is what we train for, where, up against a hardened criminal or a punk kid MMA monster on steriods, you'll need alot more than Aikido to help you. You have to be prepared to bite off extremities, scratch out eyes, poke out eyes, beat to unconsciousness, cheat in whatever way, etc., to win. Not to mention have great stamina and will to live. The key to survival is to NOT run out of gas, NOT get knocked out, NOT get on bottom of a guard, NOT get surrounded, etc. If you do, you're done. LIke that scene in Saving Private Ryan, in the upstairs with the American soldier from Brooklyn and the German, with the bayonette, there's nothing scarier than realizing that your opponent is stronger than you and is about to kill you and there's not a darn thing you can do about it.

Also, fwiw, I would NOT rely on BJJ to finish a fight. Most good fighters nowadays knows BJJ. Besides, at no time do you want to find yourself on the ground, especially on your back.

Btw, my supplement to Aikido is a CWP and 9 rds of .45cal hollowpoint. There's NO WAY I'm gonna go toe to toe with a kid half my age or a hardened institutionalized felon.

Sorry, but until Aikido becomes a complete MA, able to defeat all others, a supplement is needed. It's all well and good to speak about spiritual stuff, like Zen and defeating yourself, etc, but the hard reality is if you don't take out your opponent, he's gonna take you, right now. Before you can say,"Please, don't."

My sentiments exactly....... until you have had to face such a scenario...... you will never know.
Those of us that have KNOW and the rest are just guessing or think they know......
I look at aikido as being something I have added to my other experience and take that which is useful and discard the rest.
To be effective in self defence requires absolute will and nerve.
If you give up at the slightest pain you are in big trouble and may lose your life because of it...... be prepared, if not forget it as you will deserve everything you get!! And it will only be your fault if you are humiliated, badly injured or ...... dead!

I would then (from the hypothetical encouner you described. i.e. a failed ikkyo) transition into whatever came easiest in that particular situation. But i find ikkyo to transition into Sankyo quite nicely if the transition is needed. So, i say that i would then transition into a sankyo; or possibly a kokyu nage, or move, lead, and apply kote-gaeishi. The options are endless. That is Aikido.

-in aiki,
morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei

The reality is, a bad guy chooses to engage you in a fight because he is a fighter (otherwise he'd ambush you or snipe you),that's what he does and there's a real good chance he's put folks in the hospital and a good chance he's beat somebody to death. He fights dirty and usually has a weapon and friends and he thinks he can take you. Also, it don't have to be about robbery either, so don't use giving up your wallet and they go away as a strategy. There's just as good a chance they're trying to get into a gang or they're already in a gang, but want to get promoted or they have to do this to prove themselves, whatever, but the point is, they have to take you out (or else they get taken out), no matter what. They're not gonna be effected by your ikkyo or shihonage or any Aikido move and there's a real good chance you'll not get a chance to execute a technique.
My point is, they're plan is to effect a 'street dissection/beat down/take out' as soon and as quickly and viciously as possible. One should be thinking the same thing. Am I saying to totally abandon Aikido? Absolutely not, but have a plan B( and C and D, etc).

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

I would then (from the hypothetical encouner you described. i.e. a failed ikkyo) transition into whatever came easiest in that particular situation. But i find ikkyo to transition into Sankyo quite nicely if the transition is needed. So, i say that i would then transition into a sankyo; or possibly a kokyu nage, or move, lead, and apply kote-gaeishi. The options are endless. That is Aikido.

-in aiki,
morgan

Not hypothetical Morgan ...... actually experienced..... when its multiple attack, kicks and punches coming in at all angles all at the same time, the only thing you can do is escape...... not fight fisticuffs as you will fail unless you can box at a very highly skilled level..... Any aikido technique as they are taught in most dojo would fail miserably.... the only thing that stopped it was the fact that I was carrying a well hidden tanbo by my taxi cab seat and managed to use it to great effect..... without that I would have been badly beaten and would have ended up in A&E no doubt of that!!

Not hypothetical Morgan ...... actually experienced..... when its multiple attack, kicks and punches coming in at all angles all at the same time, the only thing you can do is escape...... not fight fisticuffs as you will fail unless you can box at a very highly skilled level..... Any aikido technique as they are taught in most dojo would fail miserably.... the only thing that stopped it was the fact that I was carrying a well hidden tanbo by my taxi cab seat and managed to use it to great effect..... without that I would have been badly beaten and would have ended up in A&E no doubt of that!!

Tony

I was responding to the main question of the post.

But i understand what you are saying. And i dissagree that most Aikido techniques would fail against a single attacker; but of course a single man would fail when surprised by many. Even a "BJJ" "MMA" guy would get his ass kicked.

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei

The reality is, a bad guy chooses to engage you in a fight because he is a fighter (otherwise he'd ambush you or snipe you),that's what he does and there's a real good chance he's put folks in the hospital and a good chance he's beat somebody to death. He fights dirty and usually has a weapon and friends and he thinks he can take you. Also, it don't have to be about robbery either, so don't use giving up your wallet and they go away as a strategy. There's just as good a chance they're trying to get into a gang or they're already in a gang, but want to get promoted or they have to do this to prove themselves, whatever, but the point is, they have to take you out (or else they get taken out), no matter what. They're not gonna be effected by your ikkyo or shihonage or any Aikido move and there's a real good chance you'll not get a chance to execute a technique.
My point is, they're plan is to effect a 'street dissection/beat down/take out' as soon and as quickly and viciously as possible. One should be thinking the same thing. Am I saying to totally abandon Aikido? Absolutely not, but have a plan B( and C and D, etc).

So people with real intent dont feel pail? How would just such a "thug" not be able to be led just like any other? I dont quite understand how he wouldnt be effected by an ikkyo or shiho-nage. The techniques work. That is why we study to become proficient at them. Aikido IS to be able to transition, to take your atackers energy, to lead, to inflict a level of pain attuned to there level of aggression. Aikido is not moves that simply look pretty. It is meant to HURT when you need it to.

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei

But i understand what you are saying. And i dissagree that most Aikido techniques would fail against a single attacker; but of course a single man would fail when surprised by many. Even a "BJJ" "MMA" guy would get his ass kicked.

Morgan I'm not saying aikido techniques don't work ...... Its all to do with how they are applied and when....... Against a single assailant they have a good chance of working...... the other thing you forget is that when people who are "high" on some illegal substance their pain tolerance increases and they [u]will[u] resist, you can bet your life on that!!...... Sadly many years ago I actually broke someones wrist when a punter got nasty with me and I just knew that no matter what I tried to do to placate him he was going to take my head off and grabbed my jacket to lump me one.....
I took his left wrist and arm into a wakigatamae/hijijime lock which he managed to worm out of so I just changed to a hard kotegaeshi which I know broke it as I definitely felt something "go" yet it took sometime of wrestling around the outside of the cab before I managed to take him down with a gyaku gamae ate/sokumen iriminage which gave me enough time to get in my cab and drive off quickly.......
What I do feel is that aikidoka who only practice with a compliant partner all the time...... really miss the point so they will never know what it could possibly be like in a real self defence experience...... As long as those that practice without resistance realise this I have no problems...... Its the delusional practitioners that have the problem as I see it.......
Tony