Egoy3k:I mean yeah sure a hole in the ozone layer lets more UV light in but it lets more out too. It's climate neutral isn't it?

Not exactly. The problem is that it comes in as UV, gets absorbed by the ground, and is later re-emitted as infrared. The IR is absorbed by CO2 and retained, warming the atmosphere.

That isn't the primary problem with the ozone hole, which is mostly about the fact that some of those things that absorb UV are human skin, which becomes cancerous. And in trying to fix that, we're replacing CFCs (which actually may have helped cause stratospheric cooling) with other compounds that are highly effective greenhouse gases.

Those compounds aren't intended to be released into the atmosphere at all (ideally; they're working fluids, more like your car's oil, and they're not supposed to be used up) but escapes do happen. They're not the biggest part of the problem, though denialists like to point it out because... well, because they'll take up any position, regardless of relevance or contradictions with their other positions, as long as they think it makes hippies look bad.

I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?

Kraln:Man, fluorine compounds are super nasty. To give you an idea, Fluorine will bind with noble gasses--yeah, you can have NeF8. Why the hell would you put fluorine anywhere near a car?

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_w it h_dioxygen_difluoride.php

As already mentioned, XeF8 is possible, but not NeF8.

On the other hand, "Things I Won't Work With" features some other "interesting" fluorine compounds, especially ClF3 (chlorine trifluoride). Anything that can set sand and asbestos (!) on fire isn't going to be something I want to be around.

tricycleracer:The two companies' success in winning domestic approval for their patented chemical came at just the right time, since DuPont's patents on R-123a, the refrigerant which had previously been the industry standard, were about to expire.

Sounds legit.

R-134a came along just when the R-12 patents ran out too.

NH3 should be used everywhere. If they're going toxic, might as well use a good one. And "leaks" shouldn't be the only environmental concern. Efficiency of the cycle (i.e. less fuel burned to run the compressor) will do more to help the environment than changing the CFC content and atmospheric lifetime.

dfenstrate:I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?

Is this new refrigerant less efficient than R134a? I remember there being a difference between R12 and R134a way back when, but I think manufacturers upped the size of the evaporators in new cars to compensate.

Reduction of the human population, especially the portion what engages in conspicuous consumption of luxury goods such as climate controlled Mercedes SUV's, is also green and burning humans are a renewable resource. So what's the problem?

tennyson:Not exactly. The problem is that it comes in as UV, gets absorbed by the ground, and is later re-emitted as infrared. The IR is absorbed by CO2 and retained, warming the atmosphere.

OK thanks. I am aware of the main problems with CFCs it just seemed odd that they characterized this as a climate issue. I don't normally think of the Ozone layer as a climate issue. If anything I would think that the loss of efficiency in older refrigeration systems designed to use a different refrigerant would offset any gains made. Also ammonia isn't exactly pleasant stuff either and a lot of industrial coolers use ammonia now.

I'm not an HVAC guy but I still remember my old Carnot cycle P-V charts from thermodynamics.

humanshrapnel:dfenstrate: I've noticed that each one of these new refrigerants is more ozone layer friendly than the last, but less efficient. The ozone friendliness only matters when it leaks out; the degraded efficiency matters whenever the AC is in operation (more gasoline burned for the same cooling output.)

At some point, doesn't the extra gas wasted constantly matter more than the damage done when the gas leaks out after 5-10 years?

Is this new refrigerant less efficient than R134a? I remember there being a difference between R12 and R134a way back when, but I think manufacturers upped the size of the evaporators in new cars to compensate.

Dr Dreidel:Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed

Also, a refrigerant that burns is doing it wrong. You had one job, REFRIGERant...

// yes, I know really cold causes burns, too// not to mention chemical burns, which can happen at room temperature

speaking as a person recovering from Chlorine Gas induced chemical pneumonia, I can vigorously attest to this.

I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

Turbo6inKY:Lukeonia1: I already knew (from experience, no less) that any fluorinated refrigerant produces hydrofluoric acid and carbon monoxide when it burns. SAE says this new stuff is only slightly more flammable than the old R123a.

Is it possible the design of the car's air conditioner system might be part of the reason for the nice dramatic fire in the article?

/daily fail, indeed

Guess how I know you didn't read the article?

The fire in the video was from a Daimler test where they sprayed a mist of refrigerant and PAG oil over the engine, and it instantly ignited. R134a does not behave the same way, and neither SAE nor NHTSA test it that way. These kinds of tests are performed by Daimler to see how things behave in a crash, and are usually far more intensive than government testing. It's why a Mercedes S-Class costs $100K+.

"Slightly more flammable" in a lab can have dramatic results in the real world. Lower the flashpoint just a few degrees and you go from "doesn't ignite upon contact with engine parts" to "OH MY GOD MY SKIN IS FALLING OFF MY FACE."

If it was serious enough for Daimler to voluntarily recall every car they'd shipped with the refrigerant even though they had regulatory cover to state the stuff was safe, it's probably worth looking at again.

maxalt:I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

Ivo Shandor:I guess my waffle iron is probably PTFE, and I still have one old spatula, but otherwise I gave up on fluorochemical non-stick cookware years ago.

You're hilarious! Good stuff... I'm imagining your efforts to use silicone in situations where teflon presented a legitimate hazard -- such as in a 550F oven, where your silicone bakeware has already melted, spilling its contents all over the oven's heating element and producing a fire.

Of course impoverished Ugandan children aren't enjoying their nonstick cookware; it's really helpful to call me out on my usage of "everyone" rather than the substance of the comment. (The substance is fluorochemical applications have a long track record of relative safety). But yeah, your cast iron pan is "nonstick." Hilarious!

I like to get worked up as much as the next guy but this article seems like a red herring.

According to an SAE International presentation, "Flammability testing at Hughes, Ineris, and Exponent labs have demonstrated the difficulty in igniting the HFO-1234yf refrigerant under the most severe testing conditions." The presentation also states that "Risk assessment indicates a very low probability that an accidental release of refrigerant creates a sufficient concentration at the same time and location as a sufficient ignition source." The risk assessments concluded that HFO-1234yf can be safely used in mobile air-conditioning. Safety standards have been published and address safe use guidelines.

thenumber5:maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

maxalt:thenumber5: maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job. I got one drop on the back of my hand. The acid doesn't react as much with skin as it does with bones, I had an open wound on my hand for ≈ nine months and the back of my hand looked as bad as the picks in the article. I only took the job as a friend to help get the company going with some equipment he and I designed. The companies name Statec stands for Stout Technology. Jergan Stout revolutionized the watch industry in the 1960 by inventing the led watch that kept time with an oscillator. That stuff is just about the worst crap in the world, some one is getting paid off to approve using HF.

maxalt:I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.

I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.

orbister:maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.

I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.

I was just in a hurry to get the line back in operation, I usually used the gloves,PFD material? It's been so long ago but I still have the scar. And you are SOO right read the MSDS carefully.

orbister:maxalt: I worked at a company Statec in so cal in the 1980's for about 1 year. Statek used Hydrogen Fluoride to etch quartz crystal in the manufacture of oscillators for watches computers and all kinds of high tech stuff. Hydrogen Fluoride is just about the only acid that will do the job.

I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

Holy. shiat.

After that it was fume cupboard only and full protective gear whenever I went near the stuff. Now I read the data sheets first.

orbister:I had a research job as part of which I had to make up an etching solution including HF - it's about the only thing which will etch niobium. I used it cheerfully and with no special precautions until the day I had some spare time and read the safety data sheet.

You're absolutely lucky that you didn't get exposed to it. A concentrated solution of HF can be fatal with exposure sites the size of a penny. It's not the burn that kills you, it's the fact that Fluoride Ions will seek out any calcium it can. Hypocalcemia is not a pleasant death.

mizchief:Makes sense, lets use chemicals that are actually deadly, to reduce the threat of something that is imaginary.

Third Leg:Can someone explain in basic terms to me why we can't just use water as a refrigerant? Boiling point too high? Too lazy to google.

In a refrigerator you allow a liquid to boil, absorbing heat. You then compress the gas produced, giving you hot gas, and allow that to condense, releasing heat and giving you liquid at a high pressure. You reduce the pressure through a throttle (or if you'd being fancy, a small turbine) to get low pressure liquid ready to boil again.

The "cool" side of the refrigerator therefore works at the boiling point of the refrigerant, given the pressure. For a domestic fridge you want that to be around 0C. Unfortunately the triple point of water is 0.1C, which means that at any temperature below that you get solid <-> gas sublimation, regardless of the pressure.

Anything which changes state from liquid to gas can be used as a refrigerant, but the temperatures and pressures at which it can be used may not be practical or useful.

hardinparamedic:You're absolutely lucky that you didn't get exposed to it. A concentrated solution of HF can be fatal with exposure sites the size of a penny. It's not the burn that kills you, it's the fact that Fluoride Ions will seek out any calcium it can. Hypocalcemia is not a pleasant death.

Oh yes indeed. Know what the standard treatment for a major HF burn is? If it gets to the bone you get immediate amputation at the next major joint.