I have not tried this test myself but it has been suggested that to check the drag of a"wing" drive the car to the max speed you will be reaching on a straight road them put the car out of gear and coast to a stop without using the brakes and measure how far the car goes. I have not tried this test as I have always had an abundance power but with only a small amount of power drag is an important factor

thats the next car... well gpz1100 motor not a 13b, but still a lot more power. the vee is about some cheap motorsport and learning everthing i can.

as for the coast down test my only problem will be finding a road long enough nearby. if anyone know of somewhere i could do this, partcularly in south australia... or any ideas of the type of place suitible then please let me know

After learning a bit more about your car, experience level, budget, etc. my advice has changed.

Run the car as it is. Don't put wings on it. Learn what it can do and what you can do with it. You've really only scratched the surface of the thing right now and there is a bunch you can do without having to hang wings off the thing.

Take some time and get these 4 things really, really sorted. It might take a year or 2. When you've learned all you can learn from your Vee, then move onto something else and go incrementally faster for a huge amount more money.

Originally posted by NRoshier errr....how much did it cost for a professional push-rod engine build and what was the service life. Besides we cannot change the past.

i have no direct problem with the motor being used, i just see it as the beggining of the change that resulted in no more clubman class in australian racing. its just motor racing is getting more and more expensive and the classes that were the cheap ones are no longer. i don't belive a competetive f vee should cost you over $30,000 it makes it almost imposible for most people to get into racing particularly circuit racing.

1. driver development, while i may only have one season of hillclimbing ofiicially i'm already gettin the car going faster than other more experienced people... that being said i think there is a half a second still in the car as is, maybe a second with better tyres, which i have2. chassis setup, there is not a hell of a lot to do here, some new front shocks are on there way and the car is beutiful to drive, very balanced. short of putting slicks on... which i can't and still compete in my class.i'm looking at fitting droop limiters to the car too3. weight limit. i'm on the min weight now, however i'm looking at some weight reduction to then put what i have lower. damn rules4.overall prep, yeah that could be better. good point.anyway my point is i'm looking into and doing all of what you said over the break and plan on testing all of these things individually before i hit the track. the wings will be a late addition if at all this season, i'm just trying to get as much info as i can before i go and make somthing.

i have no direct problem with the motor being used, i just see it as the beggining of the change that resulted in no more clubman class in australian racing. its just motor racing is getting more and more expensive and the classes that were the cheap ones are no longer. i don't belive a competetive f vee should cost you over $30,000 it makes it almost imposible for most people to get into racing particularly circuit racing.

Actually Jeremy the cost has come down in real terms depending on class of course. Sure the numbers are higher, but the real cost is different. Also motorsport has never been 'cheap'

I actually think the costs may have shifted a bit. The motorbike engines are so fast and so reliable that the search for an advantage has shifted to other components e.g. dampers. Mind you the cars are very much faster too and as much as I like some concepts such as the 750MC cars (and clubmans) that I once though of racing, the truth is they are too fragile and 'dangerous' for the likes of me..

The biggest trend we have here in the states is people just giving up on class racing and doing track day cars.

Just pick out any old car you really like (or build it) and make sure it's safe and you are ready to go. When you are not trying to be "competitive" a good part of the expense disappears. And you can run whatever you want just because you find it interesting, whether if fits well in a particular category or not. And it can be something really dirt cheap, like an obsolete ex-SCCA class racer. True, you are abandoning all real competition but many guys a) don't care or b) take the realistic view that they would never be truly competitive anyway. Whatever works to have fun, as I see it.

Actually Jeremy the cost has come down in real terms depending on class of course. Sure the numbers are higher, but the real cost is different. Also motorsport has never been 'cheap'

well of course i didn't mean cheap as in a 2.50 bag of chips cheap. its all relative. what i'm saying is with the rule changes we've had over the past few years, the classes which are the cheap ones relatively are closing the gap to the expensive ones. well that seems the trend in south aus anyway.

i understand what yur saying and you are right, its just the shift in some classes being the cheaper one to being the more expensive ones and then having no real replacement.

yeah this would only work for my car on a very flat road as the vee runs very soft in bump, i'm already having problems with bottoming the front of the car. i do like the idea though. it will give me some real world results to go by.

Here is my cheap as chips downforce/lift measuring device for use on flat roads etc:

Following advice from these pages, a sliding potentiometer and two strips of angle. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to test it out yet as my car is currently undergoing a minor transplant....

Originally posted by McGuire The biggest trend we have here in the states is people just giving up on class racing and doing track day cars.

Just pick out any old car you really like (or build it) and make sure it's safe and you are ready to go. When you are not trying to be "competitive" a good part of the expense disappears. And you can run whatever you want just because you find it interesting, whether if fits well in a particular category or not. And it can be something really dirt cheap, like an obsolete ex-SCCA class racer. True, you are abandoning all real competition but many guys a) don't care or b) take the realistic view that they would never be truly competitive anyway. Whatever works to have fun, as I see it.

Its still nice to race friends though, some years ago I put my Daughters into private school and the cost ended any car racing activity for a while so i turned to vintage motocross racing - old bikes and old blokes. Racing was respectful and fun. As with bikes, most race cars are just too fast these days for many hence in the US Mazda MX5/Mianta leads the way for numbers followed by spec Ford racers - both excitingly slow and fun.

Cant agree, Motorsport can be cheap but there seems to be some forces that stop it being so. I've had many years of cheap racing - I just choose not to win.

Example is spec racing. If you have a spec racing series, why the F%*^ do you have to have expensive racing components throughout the car? Thats just bullshit, the cars are all the same it doesnt matter a shit if they all weigh 20kgs more. It doesnt matter if they all have fibreglass wings instead of carbon fibre.

I have approached CAMS 2 times over the years with extensive plans to run spec series using (fast) cars built (to plan by you) for under $5000, not interested. But if your a manufacturer its a different story, they will bend over backwards for you.

we will have to disagree on cheap, I think FVee is about as cheap as things can get with current regulations, but it would still be very possible to spend $50,000 on a national season.
AMRS is a fine product that deserves better fields of cars.
The cost of buying the car and event fees etc is actually a relatively minor cost when full accounting is done. Some costs e.g. Tyres have actually reduced.

Originally posted by NRoshier we will have to disagree on cheap, I think FVee is about as cheap as things can get with current regulations, but it would still be very possible to spend $50,000 on a national season.AMRS is a fine product that deserves better fields of cars.The cost of buying the car and event fees etc is actually a relatively minor cost when full accounting is done. Some costs e.g. Tyres have actually reduced.

the thing about fromula vee is that they had an oppertunity to make it cheaper with the 1600cc rules and instead its now more expensive. i agree some costs have come down relatively, but these days of being able to build a chassis in the shed with some mates seems to have almost passed. i don't see why we need data loggers or short life sticky tyres. in formula vee and other lower levels of racing.

Cant agree, Motorsport can be cheap but there seems to be some forces that stop it being so. I've had many years of cheap racing - I just choose not to win.

Example is spec racing. If you have a spec racing series, why the F%*^ do you have to have expensive racing components throughout the car? Thats just bullshit, the cars are all the same it doesnt matter a shit if they all weigh 20kgs more. It doesnt matter if they all have fibreglass wings instead of carbon fibre.

I have approached CAMS 2 times over the years with extensive plans to run spec series using (fast) cars built (to plan by you) for under $5000, not interested. But if your a manufacturer its a different story, they will bend over backwards for you.

the thing about fromula vee is that they had an oppertunity to make it cheaper with the 1600cc rules and instead its now more expensive. i agree some costs have come down relatively, but these days of being able to build a chassis in the shed with some mates seems to have almost passed. i don't see why we need data loggers or short life sticky tyres. in formula vee and other lower levels of racing.

I've had a think about this and I have a few questions:Why would they want to make the class cheaper and presumably hamper the cars in the process?How do you think they would make the cars cheaper?I believe the 1600 cars use a set of tyres per year?I believe that I could build a competitive FVee car in my garage...but not with me driving it.

Originally posted by NRoshier we will have to disagree on cheap, I think FVee is about as cheap as things can get with current regulations, but it would still be very possible to spend $50,000 on a national season.

Originally posted by jeremy durward 1. but these days of being able to build a chassis in the shed with some mates seems to have almost passed. 2. i don't see why we need data loggers or short life sticky tyres. in formula vee and other lower levels of racing.

1. Unless the rules are in place that allow exactly this. The fault lay in both the Governing body (CAMS in my case) for not instigating an affordable 'built to plan' exciting spec class and the lazy bods for not pushing for it. F1000 in the States could have been a winner, "min weight 1000lbs, steel tube frame" but they allowed too many other freedoms, so much so that the top rolling chassis's cost over $50,000 USD.

2. Because CAMS wants to cater for a couple of rich kids to come through the system and make it to F1, stuff the bulk of the bods.

Get 10 people together Jeremy, design your own car, all of you build them then go race together. Flood a current class and when you have enough runners TELL your Governing body to create your own class, they have no choice but to cater for you.

I'm not talking out of my ass either, I did exactly this within the MA (Motorcycling Australia).

I've had a think about this and I have a few questions:Why would they want to make the class cheaper and presumably hamper the cars in the process?How do you think they would make the cars cheaper?I believe the 1600 cars use a set of tyres per year?I believe that I could build a competitive FVee car in my garage...but not with me driving it.

i said the days of building a car are almost over, not over.

why would they want to make a class more expensive? especially with it being a class created to be cheap. and they could have made it cheaper and still faster than the previous 1200 class cars. engines could be made cheaper, with stricter rules(regarding engine internal coatings head mods outside of the as cast rule etc.) with a loss of only a couple of horsepower, which could be gotten straight back with an increase in restrictor size. i don't think data logging is needed for such a class either. the list goes on, all small things but they all add up.

as for tyres the old dunlops would last up to two seasons, when they brought in the american racers they were only good for a couple of meetings at first. although i do understand they are working on this, my comment was made thinking of other classes too.

Yes I read it and gave it due regard.Not many want to run in the middle or at the tail end of a field, though of course most do.Vehicle purchase costs and entry costs do not usually make up a large percentage of the costs of a season's motorsport unless you are running a hillclimb series.

1. With people slowly moving away from racing to track day cars, the Governing bodies are soon going to have to start thinking about this and I think building cars will actually come back to a degree.

2. Go ask CAMS this and try to get a logical answer, I gave up years ago.

Cams L2 lic have always made up the vast bulk of the lic's issued. The ratio seems to have increased slightly over the past 10 years but not in a statistically significant amount.

CAMS are usually lead by the view of the class reps are they not? I have tracked 10 changes over the past 2 years and all have come up from the ranks before becoming 'rules' per se. I'm not quite sure how else such changes would come about? AMRS has category owners and I'd imagine they would also not impose their own will without regard to the competitors. The AASA classes I am familiar with seems to run themselves in a somewhat parallel manner to CAMS AFAICT.

Yes I read it and gave it due regard.Not many want to run in the middle or at the tail end of a field, though of course most do.Vehicle purchase costs and entry costs do not usually make up a large percentage of the costs of a season's motorsport unless you are running a hillclimb series.

wait a minute. what kind of season are we talking about here? i really don't care if the touring car teams spend more during the season than the initial cost of the car, what about someone who wants to just go out and compete in their state, maybe do the national championship round.

Good point.
I stated earlier a national championship was what I was considering, which means some interstate travel.
Within state, well lets see, I plan to do the MSCA sprint series in a 2lt sport scar and 5-6 hill climbs and have a budget of $5000 for the calender year.
This will break down roughly to $1000 tyres, entries $1000, $600 maintenance (almost all by myself, but pads, oil and brake fluid changes every two events etc etc all add up), $600+ Fuel, travel (tow car) $1000, food and support $the rest!
Of course any failures and damage add to this.
Now a friend who runs state circuit sedan spends $15,000 per season: Entries are much more expensive as it is 'proper racing' but a simple breakdown would be - one engine refresh per year, two sets of slicks, minimum of 3 drums of race fuel, all fluids, pads, some professional services, travel and accommodation for him and crew etc etc and damage repair etc. He is not at the pointy end of his class, but is high mid field in class.
I am interested in what you think is reasonable...mind you SA is an 'easy' state to do motorsport in in some respects.

yeah your right i am thinkin from a south aus point of view a bit, with only one track only an hour or so out of the cbd it does make it cheaper. however say you are spending $15,000 a year on entry servicing etc. a top line formula vee will set you back $30,000-$40,000 these days. with twenty seeming to be the minimum to even be within sight of the winners.

well yeah i think we can both agree some people have a definite skill spending money and that motor racing is an expensive past time. but i still believe some classes could be made cheaper and have relatively gone up in cost.

maybe cams have to look at running costs more? i mean a formula vee should be cheaper to run than a formula ford which should be cheaper than formula 3, i'm not saying that they aren't, i havn't looked into that enough to comment. but like you say it is more than the initial car cost. although i think formula vee buyers are being ripped off... well except me, i still think i got the deal of the century.

Ah, we have been over this ground some time before. To have a car capable of a top five finish in FF on a walk in - walk out drive i.e. you do not own the car or anything, it would cost you around $250,000 per year. So a competitive FVee 1600 season at say $50,000 is one fifth of the cost.
CAMS have very little power to do anything about controlling costs, that should and nearly always does come from within the class.

Originally posted by NRoshier Ah, we have been over this ground some time before. To have a car capable of a top five finish in FF on a walk in - walk out drive i.e. you do not own the car or anything, it would cost you around $250,000 per year. So a competitive FVee 1600 season at say $50,000 is one fifth of the cost. CAMS have very little power to do anything about controlling costs, that should and nearly always does come from within the class.

of course the difference being i don't believe f vee has a national series but rather a one weekend championship. at state level i'd think that you'd find a much smaller difference. although i'd still expect to pay more for the FF season, especially in regards to any crash damage.

i'm starting to think we should have started a whole different thread to discuss this.

It is about ten years since I was serious about racing but I was doing a season of HQ Holden racing for $6000. I was doing it cheap.
But I was beating blokes spending $30,000 and that made me feel good.

Originally posted by NRoshier well HQ's are no where near as popular as the costs went right up, the grids got smaller and the racing more strung out. Shame really.At the moment IPRA is doing well.

exactly my origunal point... i think, it was so long ago . the costs of suposedly cheaper classes are going through the roof. i've been shocked to see classes that would previously attract 30+ fields now strugle or at least are much reduced.

What happened to the original question about wings!!
If you want to know how I made mine send me an e-mail Jeremy but when making the front ones don't add separate rivetted on skid paltes under the end plates--------------I did -----------I suspect that the forward most rivets got rubbed off and the plate caught in the road and tore off the wing which resulted in a big accident!!
It does prove that the wings work!
JOHN PAGE

Originally posted by JOHN PAGE What happened to the original question about wings!!If you want to know how I made mine send me an e-mail Jeremy but when making the front ones don't add separate rivetted on skid paltes under the end plates--------------I did -----------I suspect that the forward most rivets got rubbed off and the plate caught in the road and tore off the wing which resulted in a big accident!!It does prove that the wings work!JOHN PAGE

yeah we have been getting a bit off topic. do you mean plates to seal the endplate to the ground, as used to be run in f1 a few years abck?