Sunday, October 18, 2009

Next time you hear anti-gay forces try to speak their "truth", let them know how hypocritical their philosophy of hate and misunderstanding really is.

Religion is a lifestyle choice, homosexuality is not.The religious-right often says that homosexuality is a choice, when clearly the science and common sense is in that nobody would choose to feel ostracized, be a minority, or lead a life where they weren't given equal opportunities.

Judgment and hate are sinful, loving gay couples are not.The people who use the Bible as a tool to preach anti-gay hate often point fingers accusing gay people of being sinners. What they fail to realize is that the Bible is not to be taken literally, homosexuality is no more a sin, than being left handed, it is natural and God given, it is people in the context of an ancient culture who misunderstood homosexuality that wrote these verses. For those who take a literal interpretation it is ironic that they rail against LGBT people while failing to remember the Bible says not to judge or to hate, but to love thy neighbor as thyself.

To walk in the way of Jesus is to reach out to LGBT people. Jesus Christ made it his mission not to follow religious dogma and authority, he did not seek to reach out to the rich or those in power. He set out to befriend and assist the poor, the weak, the disabled, and disenfranchised. Jesus would clearly be reaching out to lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people.

Religion seeks to recruit people into its lifestyle, LGBT people don't.Right-wing elements within organized religion often claims that gays are trying to "recruit people into their lifestyle" but last I checked one cannot alter a straight persons orientation. We seek to educate, dialogue and gain equality not in an effort to turn people gay but turn peoples hearts and minds into seeing that we share the same hopes, and fears, and love that everyone else does. If anyone is on a mission to recruit people into their lifestyle it would be organized religion and their missionaries. These groups seek to convert people into their way of thinking, which they see as the only way. The beauty of this Earth is that there are many ways to find inner peace and spirituality, and that there is a diversity of thought and of culture and to find God or to have no Gods at all.

I can understand your frustration. But I wouldn't color all Christians this way. It seems to me that you are as biased and intolerant against Christians as you believe Christians are toward gays - maybe a caricature.

All Christians I know would separate religion from Scripture, hate and judgment from truth.

We are definitely not called to judge a person. If we do so, we judge ourselves. Whereas Jesus would reach out to LGBT, He would be the first to tell you that you need to separate behavior from identity. He would also tell you He loves you. But He would tell you to 'sin no more' if you want to be reconciled to Him. This may not be an issue for you (reconciliation). If so, sin is not an issue. Sin is only in context to reconciliation to God. We all make our own decisions. I have no right to impose that on you.

The basis of Christianity is there is a God, He Created everything to sustain and propagate life and that homosexual behavior does not do that. It is not a question of 'feelings' or 'emotion'. If it was, you would be right. God's laws are based on logic. Your arguments are not (not criticizing). This is not a license to judge a gay person.

This is not a question of context of an ancient culture. That is a cop-out. Scripture was authored by God, written by men. It is truth. Not as I interpret it, but as it supports itself.

God's plan is to reconcile people to Himself. He has set down His plan for that in His Word. If you do not believe in God or do not want to be reconciled -- all this is foolishness and I personally apologize on behalf of all Christians who would not want to be characterized as you have described. A lot of Christians may assume everyone DOES want or SHOULD want to be reconciled to God - and this gives them license to judge. Both are incorrect.

Bottom Line: God loves you and wants you to be reconciled to Him, but on His terms, not yours. (after all He IS God).

Like truthspew I'm also an atheist so this "god loves me" rather does fall on deaf ears for me. Brian if that list didn't address you or anyone you know, great, what a wonderful person you are. But it's addressing counterpoints for people that actually think that way and I must say it's pretty useful.

(Rather naive, to say the least, since there are the very obvious responses. Ones you will actually hear.)

"Religion is a lifestyle choice, homosexuality is not."

I don't know if homosexuality is a choice or is biological. If biological, then it could be like alcoholism, and even genetically based, which, if it cannot be cured, can be "managed". Jesus can help you with that.

"Judgment and hate are sinful, loving gay couples are not."

I'm have no doubt that there are loving gay people and gay couples. But there can be people living in open "wife-swapping" relationships, too. The practice of homosexuality is another sin that must be overcome.

"To walk in the way of Jesus is to reach out to LGBT people."

That's just what we do!

(They go down to "gayborhoods" everywhere and meet with gays all the time. sharethegospelministry.org is an example on Cedar Springs / Dallas. I've known Brian Frost for years. Nice guy. We've had lunch.)

(One irony is that if you look at Dallas Voice, it has quite a few "Jesus Is The Way" churches that are gay, from moderate to fundamentalist. You can go to a gay fundamentalist church where there are people who believe in the literal truth of Genesis, Jesus is the way to salvation, and gay sexuality is perfectly OK. I've talked to them too.)

There's nothing wrong with being gay at all. Obviously if God didn't want people to be born gay then He wouldn't create them that way in the first place. These self-righteous religious wackjobs have always cast aspersions on other groups so as to make themselves feel (falsely) superior, and probably always will too.

What is really wrong though, is race mixing. Like the two guys in the picture at the top of this page, for example. One has to wonder why they simply couldn't get someone of their own race to be with rather than engage in this affront to society. With the millions of other choices out there, they simply couldn't resist whatever unnatural urge they have to get together with someone outside their own race????

It's bad enough that people judge all gay people unfairly and many (ignorant, uneducated types) truly believe that we molest children, spread diseases, have sex in public places (by and large these are [supposedly] heterosexual men, who are almost always married too), lead "partying" lifestyles, take drugs and drink too much, etc., etc.

While out in public, if people were to see two guys of the same race who were obviously a couple, that would be one thing. Perhaps the more backwards, uneducated, and ignorant types could learn to see that gay people are just like them in many ways and that the negative stereotypes about gay people are completely false. Their anxiety and dislike of gay people would be more likely to move towards acceptance.

But when they see two gay guys who are a couple and they're of different races.... well, then naturally their thought process would move in the opposite direction, and instead of trying to find similarities with gays, they're going to try and build to build on the differences between "normal heterosexuals" and "those aberrant homosexuals", and use those differences as a justification for why gays shouldn't be allowed to have the same rights that they have.

Instead of their thought process moving towards seeking our similarities with them, it's going to go in the opposite direction and they're going to heap on even more negative stereotypes against all gay people, e.g., "Just look at them... they have to openly rub their sexual orientation in the public's faces", and "They don't even have the decency to date within their own race", and "They obviously have no concept of social norms and mores if they actually seek out an individual who is of a different race to date", etc.

So is it any wonder then, why the religious nutjobs say that gay marriage should be outlawed because the next thing we'll want to do is marry our dogs or inanimate objects? No wonder they're frightened of gay people and of gay marriage. When they see two gay people in public who are a couple and they are of different races, it's just too much for them to handle and they're naturally going to resist it. It in turn will just make it that much more difficult and more arduous for us to work towards achieving any little bit of equality when we're fighting against heteros who see us as congenitally amoral and unnaturally degenerate beings who make conscious choices to arrogantly refuse to observe even the most basic of societal norms, and who furthermore choose to flaunt the choice to date outside of our own race.

If two people of different races want to be together then that's their business. Who am I to say who should and shouldn't be together? I personally find race-mixing to be disgusting and immoral and it makes me rather nauseous. But that's just me. If two people are so inclined to engage in that type of activity/perversion, then they should at least have the decency and consideration for the larger gay community as a whole to keep their relationship secret and out of the view of the public so that others won't have to witness it, At this point in our history when we're we're trying to claw our way up the social justice ladder and obtain rights equal to the ones the hets take for grated, we don't need anything holding us back at all.

Definitely will give it a whirl because it's all about stripping whoever the "moderates" are of the thin-veneer of excuses they need to exercise bigotry or to "sit this one out" in the name of "fairness".

That being said, it doesn't really matter if we confront their talking points or not. That's because the talking points aren't in good faith, they're an excuse, an attempt to pretend that their side has validity to justify trying to make their particular worldview mandatory for the population.

In a just world, we wouldn't have to be having this fight. If people understood the Constitution and the intent of the Framers or even basic history, they'd know that no matter how cool their Church may seem, it doesn't get to dictate or even guide public policy, that secular rules are to protect everyone and that freedoms aren't a zero sum game and no one is really harmed when more people can engage in an activity. The world never ended when blacks and women could vote, when slavery ended, when no-fault divorce was allowed, when people could marry for love and between religious sects. Many of those universal freedoms we take for granted. Such as the right to vote at all, or the right to a participatory democracy.

In short, though, this won't win the day. Being visible, not taking crap, being us as loud as we can and as messy as we can, confronting all the isms when they arise, reduces their power and the false sense of a majority they gain by being loud.

Most people aren't going to fight to the bitter end to hold others down. But that determined 15% WILL use the apathy of the 70% to seem powerful and ubiquitous and lazy thinking supports it.

Question them where it hurts. What does it matter to them, really? Could you actually look a gay family in the eye when you steal rights, can you look at their home and not be confronted with your sins?

But yeah, also good point on the BIble. As a non-Christian, it amazed me to no end when a Christian friend finally pressured me to read it and I quickly realized that none of the so-called Christians had ever done so. It is like they claimed to read Hamlet but thought the point was the best way to run a play to make your Uncle happy.

And brian, read your book, in fact, I'll make it easier for you. You only have to read the parts of the New Testament written by people who actually spoke to Jesus (so no Paul). Trouble is, you have to read it front to back. I'll happily wait until you do.

On a further note, I'm increasingly aggravated that every minority group has to go through a trial by fire campaign every time they want basic rights given to the main group. If you're not perfect, oh guess we don't have to treat you as human after all, but if the main group, even it's most "pious" members screw up over and over and over and over in ways even more repugnant than the communities they're chastising commit and often at much higher rates, oh that's just a bad seed, prove you're supermen.

At what point can we finally get away with going "no, I don't have to prove myself to be equal. Rights are already given to the diseased in your eyes. I don't need to pay for your impotence in dealing with those problems with my life and my rights." If straight people can get married in Vegas, white, rich men can bankrupt the entire nation and then whine about taxes, I think all the minority groups get to have a nice big yank on the equality lever and they no longer have to put up with "apologizing" for perversity, gang violence, illegal aliens, or sex just to be admitted to the table.

Again, my arguments are based on Scripture, not my interpretation. If you want to have a dialog with a Christian, it must be on those grounds. When either a Christian or a gay person goes off into the 'emotional weeds' - either for legitimate or illegitimate reasons, the dialog is over, ranting begins. I understand this is the motive for this dialog, i.e. Christian ranting. I am trying to engage without hurtful emotion.

I believe several have been hurt and have a lot of baggage. If your goal is to justify your anger and respond in kind, I cannot respond. (I can understand, I can even agree, I just cannot respond). If you are honestly trying to see both sides, as I hope I am trying, then dialog can continue.

Queers United - I am happy God loves you and that you have a healthy relationship with Him. What may be at issue is "Did God create gays". My understanding from Scripture is that He did not. You may believe you are evidence He did, but it is not in Scripture. What may bother gay people is that their 'testimony' is not accepted by Christians based on God's Word. Their (Christians) reasoning is simple. If God created gay people - He would have said so. Instead, there are many passages in the Bible that say God sees same sex relationships as opposite to His intent in Creation. You may believe this is the homophobic (there's a word with emotional baggage!) rantings of people similar to your antagonists. That is a place where we have to agree to disagree.

truthspew, the last statement grates on me as well. What Christians may not tell you is that it is impossible to live up to God's standard. We all fall short. I am the same in God's eyes as any gay person. That is why it is unproductive to judge one another. Only God has the authority to do so. He is not on one side or the other. He is on His own side.

God has provided a way to be reconciled to Him. The only way is through His Son - Jesus Christ. Out of love for you and me, Jesus paid the price to give you equality - if you accept. Again, the question comes up -- do you really want to be reconciled, or have equality in God's eyes? This debate only has merit (on both sides) if you do. Political or social agendas are not justified by Scripture, eternal agendas are. If your desire for equality here in this world, than I would argue that you are confusing the issues. There are more productive ways to engage on political or social debate - then to bring in Scripture.

I have to say this is the tipping point for both gays and straights. To accept what Jesus did, we both have to acknowledge we are guilty of breaking relationship with God (sin) and are deserving of sin's penalty (no eternal life).This is as tough for me as it is for you, or for anyone else. I want to believe I am as righteous as you are. (At least we have common ground there). Don't fall into the trap of thinking Christians believe they are perfect or if you find a 'bad' Christian, your reasoning is valid.

If you do not believe in God, as truthspew and T.R., this should not be an issue. No one can force you to seek a relationship with God. I find it interesting though that gay people demonstrate through their actions that God's ways are right... the whole debate on marriage - it is a covenant established by God. Having children (not biologically) speaks to God's intent for us to have families and propagate. Gays want it both ways - which confuses everyone.

Cerebus - your ways are not productive. They are full of hate (good name though). You are responding in kind to the thing you hate the most. There will always be a fringe that thinks your type of behavior is productive, but it is not.

I think the term is 'drama queen' and it applies to both sides.

(btw, breaking Scripture into pieces you like and ignoring the pieces you don't is also the same behavior you hate. I have read it all - and am ready to discuss - but I don't think that's the intent of your posturing).

I don't believe in your Bible, I believe in God. God is all knowing, all loving and has zero to do with the Bible which was written by human beings who wanted to control the masses. How can you give credence to a book that support slavery, supports animal sacrifice, believes women are less than, and goes counter to science, psychology and common sense.

'nuff said. Sorry for wasting your time. Not my Bible, the Word of God - written so men could understand Him. It can stand on its own and everything is written so it can be discussed openly -- as we are doing here. There are difficult parts to the Bible -- which lend it credibility in my view -- it doesn't hide or pull punches.

If we don't agree on the reference, it is impossible to reach consensus. Your god can be anything needed to justify your cause. Your 'small g' god is not the God of Creation. Why don't you just admit it? Your discussion is shallow, vacuous and self-serving - which is why you have a problem making an objective appeal for equality.

I hope you find what you are looking for. I would suggest your best avenue to resolve the subject of this post is to say that you do not believe in the God of the Bible and you have no interest in being reconciled to Him. You believe in the god you have created.

you are right I don't believe in the "god" of the bible. I believe in God who I have a relationship with and know to be loving and affirming. You have no authority to say my belief is a fairytale while yours is the truth because it is written in a book. Moby Dick is also a book, should we create the Church of Moby and declare it to be the word of the great Whale God?

You are right. I have no authority. Never said I did. You are good at putting words in other's mouths to support your argument.

You have no proof. So we're at a draw.

Truth is not subjective. It's not based on how many people agree with your opinion on a blog. Truth is not conviction, i.e. I am convinced, therefore it must be true. Truth is not different for you than for me. I'm sorry you can't be more objective. No need to get defensive. Again, it would help your cause if you could make your arguments more tangible. I base my truth on the written Word. I am willing to listen to any 'argument' about its veracity. What you call 'argument' appears to be a rant. Do you believe like Cerebus' thoughts, if you can state it loud and long enough, you will get your way...?Good luck with that.

What about Jesus Christ? Do you call Him Lord?If you do, what about his words? Are they not written correctly? When He calls the God of the Bible His Father, who do you think He is referring to? If you do not believe Jesus Christ, do you call yourself Christian? Why?

Just wondering... btw, I'm sure there is a Church of the great whale god somewhere... bring on his teaching...

I believe Jesus was an amazing person, who brought a lot of positive messages to this world. The writings we have were written 200 years after he lived. Lots of myth from pagan beliefs were also used within Christianity, ie: the birth to a virgin, the Dec 25th birthday, the crucifixion for world sins, and the resurrection 3 days later. All ancient stories, Christianity just stole them and took credit.

Although some have suggested a gay-subtext to the Gospels, I have not really found it (other than the bit about the young man following Jesus before his betrayal, who ran away naked, and the story of the Roman soldier and his male servant, whom Jesus cured).

That Paul (from writings ascribed to him) was suppressing his own homosexual tendencies is, on the other hand, far more accepted by serious scholars.

Brian you can believe homosexuality is a sin, you have a right to that belief. But you don't have a right to be a spokesperson for christianity, God, nor religion in general. I know many gay Christians and many straight Christians who support gay rights unequivocally. I do not call myself Christian but that doesn't mean I don't have my own version of spirituality and my own sense of self purpose. It is no more right or wrong than the one you have come up with for yourself. You just have more people in your club.

As for dialogue you are welcome to post your thoughts, I haven't censored you. But, you can't expect to defend the position that being gay is against the Bible, The Bible is the word of Truth, and the wildest idea that gays are not oppressed without taking some heat for expressing those sentiments.

Brian, you have made some very valid scriptual points. But there is something about the Bible that you may have missed. It says we all have our own free will.

To have a free will, one can not be commanded! (ie. the 10 commanments)

It also says that we will do as Jesus has done, and more (W.W.J.D. - bumper stickers, arm bands, etc...) To repeat what is written in the Bible, is not doing "and more", also, is says to look within to find God! If you repeat what someone told someone, who repeats what someone else told them, then you are like the perverbial sheep to slauter. Look within! Find your answers there, the Bible is a 'guide book', not the be all to end all. Look at the differences between the new and old testaments, there is a lot of contradictions.

Jesus said there will be others as I and more! Then the Bible says that it is the only one, and Jesus was and is the only one (see the contradiction?). Other religions calm to be the only truth! Wars have been fought over this, millions have died over that statment! Why? A religion is a 'why', none are perfect, anyone that has any ability to think and ponder can see that. If ALL religious leaders made the statment, infact all world and political leaders, made the statment that what thier religion or country has to offer was a different way, and not "the way", wars would end! Political striff would end, genocide would end, hate would end! Do you follow what I am saying here? The entire landscape of the perceptions of the "who is better" would end! Instantly!

I would like to recommend that you read a series of books written by Neale Donald Walsch, called "Conversations With God". They are very enlightening, well written, easy to understand, humorous, heart wrenching, and most of all, make one look with in!

I had many miss given feelings of what God meant to me being a Gay man and what religion "said about being Gay"! The understanding of what I was told about the 'interpatation of the Bible', being the sinner, the self lothing, fear of hell, and all the other falocies that went along with it. I now feel that God (Universe, Budda, Jahova, and many other names) does Love Me! I am the way I am supposed to be, I am here for a purpose! We are all here for a reason, an no one can know that but ourselves. Anyone that tells us what that purpose is, is the one that is giving false profacy.

I do implore you to look at yourself, an read these books! They are not to be taken as a religion, do not mistake them for the be all to end all! Just "another way" to see your interpatation of Who God Is, an what it means to be a human being on this planet of dust in this massive exspance known as the universe.

You might want to have a look at your genology! No one is all 'white', or all 'black' or 'all' any one color!

As my sweet little old Granny once said (to the sagrine of my ulta-religious Aunt and Uncle who almost choked to death)"there must be a nigger in our wood pile somewhere, everytime this family gets together, we eat water mellon". The rest of the family like to choke do death in laughter. Sorry for the use of the "N" word, or to insinuate anything about people of color. She was born in the Oklahoma territory, before it was a state. I just don't think it would have same meaning with out it.

To make a point, we are all not pure anything! We are all a mixed bag of everything. Some are just totally mixed up! We are all one, just look different. And if you can not see past the color of ones skin, then you are the one that has blinders on! That is called RACEISM!

You talk about ignorence?

Micheal Jackson made a song a while back about "looking at the man in the mirror". I think you need to take that advise. A long hard look, deep hard look!

I became a Christian when I was 18 years old, someone who believes what the Bible says about Jesus Christ; that He is God, that He is the Son of God, that He gave up his place in Heaven to walk as one of His creation, that He died on the cross in our place, that He did not deserve it, but did so because he loves us and wants all of us one day to meet God face to face.

Twenty-five years later, the strength that faith in Jesus Christ gave me to face mortality, loneliness, confusion, envy, and all the other afflictions that lie down as stumbling blocks before a person's joy, allowed me to see myself for the first time, face to face.

I am bi-sexual. It was easy for me to submerge my attraction to guys because I am also attracted to women. The problem is that suppressed feelings don't just play nice and lay still. All my life I thought about and fantasized about both sexes. I would say to myself, Oh, the psychology books say everyone does that, don't be freaked out about it.

But denying the truth made me a worse person not a better one. Not more Christlike, but less; and less happy.

I'll never forget the joy I felt recently, as I walked across the parking lot from my car to my workplace, letting go; not trying to walk like and talk like the person I thought a man should be; but just being me. Even the wind going through the leaves seemed to be saying, Look at the beautiful secret, where has he been. Remember when he used to smile without knowing why, and how long he mourned the same.

It was also easy for me to brush aside the issue of whether homosexuality is a sin. After all it's not the Taliban or getting the bills paid or all the other so important distractions; and doesn't the Bible say so, it's usually pretty cool. I'm sure there's a practical reason why God hates it.

Strange though. Really, how does one hate the sin but love the sinner? If carrying a mailbag was a sin, could I really love this man that walks up and down the street everyday, flaunting his ambivalence for God?

Does the Bible say that same sex relationships are a sin, that homosexuality is a sin? The old testament says a man shall not lay with a man as with a woman. This is anything but clear, and apparently leaves lesbians off the hook. Although they are allegedly mentioned once in the new testament.

However, "at the mouth of TWO witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established" -Deuteronomy 19:15 King James Bible

The fact is that the few scarce references in the Bible which may not even refer to homosexuality in the original languages, are always taken out of context by Christians who use God's word to condemn homosexuality as sin.

Note how they say God loves the sinner but hates the sin, and then in the same breath say that if you don't give up that sin God will send you to hell.

Most of these are people who honestly love God and think they are defending his good intentions toward us. Yet, even they as they sit in their pews know that there is a disconnect from what their pastors are telling them and what the Holy Spirit is telling them. They know it when they talk to their friends and their neighbors and their children and their parents who are LGBT.

Thank you God, for alowing me to see me. I look forward to seeing You.

@christian magazine, gay Christians, worship a living God, not a static book. A book by the way that is a book made up of many books that a council of Catholic leaders who were trying to bring a religion together so that all thought, practice and belief could be controlled by this council and it's heirs instead of the myriad beliefs and forms of worship that were being practiced as Christianity at the time.Unfortunately they did not see that one of the consequences of their actions would be that God speaks to all people in the ways they, personally understand best, and that by including the laws of an ancient theocracy, it would be taken as a model for government 5000 years later. If nothing else, demanding that all believe one way and one way alone, they managed to create more war, more anger, more hate and more injustice in this world than any other belief system in the world. Just check your history on that one.Jesus himself told us to see God as living and ever revealing truth, that is why they have the Talmud as well as the ancient texts. The Talmud reinterprets the ancient laws to show a living ever revealing God. I can and have chosen to follow Jesus, and because of this, he has shown me how wonderfully made I am in all my gayness. When I was merely following a church and a static book, there was no love in me, no hope and only fear. He showed me I never chose to be gay, but should accept it for the gift it is.Perfect love casts out fear, perfect love gives and receives love freely and sees all humans as being worthy of love. I do not see much perfect love in organized religion. I see much fear, much hate and much oppression.We are commanded to worship in spirit and in truth, to love God with all our hearts and mind and to do unto others as we would have others do unto us. How would it feel to you if I treated you the way many who call themselves Christians treat us? We are scorned, beaten, yelled at, murdered and raped. Facts show most of the perpetrators of these crimes are raised and self identify as Christians. BRIAN: Call it whining if you wish, if it makes you feel better. Is it whining if the complaints are valid? Why are our points whining but yours are not? Does my gayness diminish your Christianity? Are you one who feels personally responsible for another's salvation? Do you not know that "it is the work of God that you believe?" To say you have led x number of sinners to the Lord is vanity? That the ex-gay therapies often leave lasting scars and many times lead to suicide? That your witness in less your words than the way you live your whole life?

I'm sorry I missed this, and glad you bumped it up. I use the religion as lifestyle choice one all the time. Among other things, I like to point out that I have been ex-Christian for 13 years, and then ask them if this means I should go work to deny them their civil rights, since my life proves that they can change their behavior.

Looks like you attracted some real winners in the comments, too. Nothing like willful ignorance, eh?

Interesting that everyone on here seems to think that God has a penis. I'm so sick of the use of all these masculine pronouns to refer to a supreme being.

All you Bible thumpers, don't bother pointing out any probably mistranslated "scriptural" references to support your beliefs that God has a johnson. I really don't give a big f**k. Your scriptures carry no weight with me, as I have made different belief choices.