The following post first appeared on this site back in 2011. Given the recent fresh attention Sovereign Grace Churches’ issues have been receiving – including Rachel Denhollander’s interview on Fox News as well as the Christianity Today article – I thought this post was worth revisiting. Yes, it’s rather lengthy, but it does a really good job of explaining why Sovereign Grace pastors may have been uniquely primed to take the side of perpetrators over victims. It also makes a strong case for the notion that Sovereign Grace’s dysfunction goes way beyond the alleged coverup of abuse, as terrible as those situations were. For many years, the organization promoted doctrines and practices that on the surface seemed perfectly biblical and orthodox but were actually just subtly twisted enough to be dangerous. The abuse cases allegedly covered up by Sovereign Grace leadership are merely one symptom of the subtly twisted doctrines and practices.

Anyway, here are my thoughts.

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While I am the first to say that any coverup of sex abuse is horrific and evil, particularly when done by a church, I think it would be interesting to explore the mindset behind any such coverup.

What is it about their SGM training that would make SGM pastors respond to abusers in such a way? Why would SGM pastors appear to extend more grace to perpetrators than to victims? Why would SGM pastors believe that they should be the primary source of counsel and support for perpetrators? Why would SGM pastors exhibit a reluctance to get outside help or call upon law enforcement to deal with such perpetrators?

It’s my opinion that SGM’s twisted teachings about sin and the role of the pastor – as well as SGM’s blurring of the lines between “the gospel” and “the SGM church organization” – are what have led to situations where these sorts of crimes seem to be minimized, and perpetrators quickly restored to good standing within congregations.

First of all, SGM holds to the (in my opinion essentially correct and biblical) belief that all problems faced by humanity can be traced back to sin. I say I think it’s an “essentially correct and biblical belief” because if we dig through all the layers of human suffering and misery and downright evil, we are left with almost no other choice but to conclude that humanity is messy because humanity is fallen and sinful.

However, where I would part ways with SGM’s assumption is where SGM’s essentially correct belief about sin morphs into what SGM believes is the remedy for sin.

In SGM’s teachings – and if I wanted to take more time to develop this, I could go back and dig up plenty of quotes from books like Why Small Groups and sermons like CJ’s Happiest Place On Earth, as well as plenty of other resources that are available for the whole world to read and hear – the problem of sin is seen as being addressed by not just the work of Jesus on the cross and His continued presence with us through the Holy Spirit. SGM would say that Jesus’ work on the cross is now being “finished” or “completed” by how Christians relate to a “local” church and how Christians are affected by the work of the pastors in their lives.

1. Yes, salvation is through Christ alone, through his atoning sacrifice.

2. Salvation, however, is separate from sanctification.

4. Although, sanctification WILL result anytime someone is “truly saved.”

5. Sanctification cannot happen apart from “biblical fellowship.” I actually am going to go and dig up a quote to back this one up. From Chapter 1 of Why Small Groups? comes this:

Although one’s personal responsibility for sanctification remains paramount, sanctification cannot be accomplished in isolation from the local church. Scripture clearly teaches that sanctification is intended to take place in the local church—and small groups contribute invaluably to this process.

You can read the whole chapter to get an even better feel for how thoroughly CJ and his cohorts view participation in “biblical fellowship” a completely essential element of a person’s sanctification.

6. A key componant of “biblical fellowship” is interacting with people in a way where they freely confront you about your sin and where you humbly submit to others’ assessment of your sin. I would strongly urge people to read Why Small Groups? if they have not already done so, and examine how narrowly and explicitly “biblical fellowship” is defined, and how it almost cannot take place anywhere but in a small group set up and run the way SGM runs small groups.

(By the way – this principle is FOUNDATIONAL if anyone wants to understand the driving force behind Brent Detwiler’s seeming obsession with confronting CJ in his sins. In the SGM mindset, a lack of willingness to submit to others’ assessment of your sin and to acknowledge your sins when confronted with them is almost a sign that you are out of fellowship with God. If we can grasp this, we can understand why in Brent’s mind, CJ’s unwillingness to be confronted was so utterly grievous and dismaying. And why Brent continued his pursuit so doggedly…even as he talked about “grace,” which most Christians understand as letting someone off the hook. In SGM thinking, true “grace” must involve sticking with the confrontation no matter what, because unwillingness to acknowledge one’s sins when confronted would be a sign that the person is not being sanctified…which is a sign that the person could maybe not even be saved!)

7. Also, SGM believes that another essential part of “biblical fellowship” is a person’s continued oversight from his pastor, who also bears the responsibility to continue to confront the person on his sin. SGMers are taught that pastors, by virtue of their higher calling and “gifting,” possess special abilities to perceive a person’s sins more accurately than the person himself. You can read a transcript of C.J. Mahaney’s Happiest Place On Earth sermon here. C.J. has traveled around the country, delivering that sermon to many SGM churches over the years. While (once again) Dave Harvey would now apparently like people to think that SGM does not teach that pastors have special authority over people, that is simply not true.

8. Essential to the SGM understanding of the gospel is a demonstration that one remains keenly aware of one’s “worst sinner one knows” status. I realize that this comment is already excruciatingly long, but I really want to lay this all out in one place, so I’m going to quote from another post:

Deeply embedded in the SGM mindset are some assumptions:

1. All sins are just as vile in the eyes of God.

2. One of the clearest signs of “rebellion” is when a person sees himself as an injured party, because no injury that can be perpetrated against the person could ever surpass the horror that the person’s own sin is in the eyes of God.

3. The clearest sign of a “repentant” person is eager confession of wrongdoing.

Taking those three SGM assumptions, let’s examine Noel’s pastors’ response to her family’s situation. In light of these assumptions, I think we can more clearly understand a bit of what went through those pastors’ minds as they offered more sympathy and support to the perp rather than the victims. Even though the pastoral responses are basically incomprehensible to a normal person, they sort of start to make sense when you think of it in this way:

Because of SGM’s belief that each of us must always be “the worst sinner that we ourselves know,” we basically give up our rights to ANY victimhood, no matter how heinous the crime committed against us.

In other words, even though what happened to Noel’s family was absolutely horrific, SGM’s foundational teachings would say that Noel’s only legitimate “biblical” response would be to examine her own sinfulness and see herself as “the worst sinner” she knows. Her pastors would see it as their duty to direct Noel’s attention first of all to her own indwelling sin, her own wretchedness in God’s eyes. I believe they sincerely think that this is “bringing the Gospel into” everything they do. For them, “the Gospel” is firstly and foremostly about our own sin.

But instinctively, we know that something is jacked up in this view. God’s own Word would tell us that He does see some sins as having broader and more lasting consequences than other sins. Yes, all sin is an abomination in God’s eyes…theoretically. But we all know the REALITY, that if I go out and kill someone, there are far more ramifications all the way around than if I lie by calling in sick to work one day when I’m not actually sick and just want to go shopping with my friends. Both the murder and the lie are sins in God’s eyes and both are wretched, but if you lie to me, I’m probably going to be less upset than if you kill someone near and dear to me.

In SGMville, though, this normal human reaction – one that the even the Bible would seem to support, if you examine how God outlined so many very specific laws and guidelines governing behavior for Old Testament Israel – is circumvented. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been the victim of a liar or a murderer. In your SGM pastor’s mind, you’ve got NO RIGHT to see yourself as a victim, of any sort. In order to “bring the Gospel in,” they’re duty-bound to remind you of your own sinfulness, like it’s some sort of tonic for the normal grief that you might feel because of the ramifications of the sin that was perpetrated against you…like somehow, if I as the victim can just focus on my own badness, I’ll forget that someone molested my child.

So OK. In SGMville, all sins are created equal.

Now, enter the perp. Perp expresses sorrow and remorse for his sin. He truly IS the “worst sinner that he knows,” so such a mindset comes easily and naturally to him. In the eyes of his SGM pastors, he automatically then becomes the “more righteous” person, since his response is the only “truly biblical” repsonse that they can find acceptable.

It gets worse if the victim stands up for himself/herself in any fashion. SGM pastors immediately see this as unforgiveness, which of course is a sin, which then makes the victim even WORSE than the remorseful (and therefore righteous) perp.

Again, I did not think of this myself. Someone else initially posted these general thoughts. But I thought these were some brilliant observations that did far more to shed light on Noel’s pastors’ really twisted and bizarre behavior than just about anything else.

To me, this helps to make sense of why, in SGMville, the victims are minimized while the perps are protected. It’s because in SGMville, the only thing that is really righteous is seeing oneself as “the worst sinner one knows.” If one has had a crime – particularly a heinous crime like child abuse – perpetrated against one, there is NO HONEST WAY that one can authentically and enthusiastically embrace “worst sinner” status in one’s thinking. One instinctively knows that someone else’s sin (in this case, one’s perp’s sin) is greater than one’s own sin. So one naturally raises objections to embracing “worst sinner” status.

SGM pastors sense this and seem to hone in on it, interpreting standing up for oneself as a sign of pride and sin and unforgiveness.

Meanwhile, the perp is over in his corner crying his genuine tears of sorrow. Because he truly IS the “worst sinner he knows” at that moment, he is more righteous, and hence more worthy of protection.

9. We have to factor in SGM’s longstanding distrust of and total disdain for the mental health profession. SGM has long taught that “secular psychology” has absolutely nothing to offer the believer in terms of solving problems. (You can see what was taught to SGM pastors fairly recently – in 2009 – about the “counseling process” by viewing a transcript of that talk. Access Part 1 here, Part 2 here, and Part 3 here.)

Anyway, to connect the dots of all this to the situations where SGM pastors were aware of sex abuse and seem to do nothing to address the problem legally…

If all problems are sin issues, and if the only solution to all sin issues (sanctification) must involve continued “biblical fellowship,” which – most importantly – includes continued confrontation from a pastor about one’s sins…

And if “secular psychology” presents no way for this to continue, but a pastor’s counsel does…

And if a perpetrator has acknowledged his sin to his pastor…

And if it is un-Christian (“sinful”) to ever feel like one has the right to be a total victim, with no corresponding need to focus on one’s own sin…

Then it makes total sense for the SGM pastor to:

1. Appear to side with the perpetrator.

2. Believe that his pastoral counsel is all that is needed.

3. Believe that he is actually better serving the victim through his position, because he is making it more difficult for the victim to pursue what would be sin – i.e. being a victim and “demonstrating unforgiveness” by pursuing justice through the legal system.

4. Consequently believe that through all of this, he is “protecting the gospel” or some such, because the SGM gospel is all about confronting and rooting out sin, never having the right to be a victim, and demonstrating one’s salvation status by the sanctification process of confessing one’s sins – which a perpetrator has already done, therefore making the perpetrator “more sanctified” than someone who is trying to get justice as a victim.

“The quote about how SGM churches are independent and so a church would have to call for an investigation, SGM can’t do it (or SGC as they are now)…is that true? Have they dispensed with the authority of the SGC oversight over local churches? Or is that spin?”

I was almost stunned that they had the nerve to hide behind their polity. Almost. They have the legal cover to day that, yet, the influence has not changed.

The SGC response to Christianity Today says, “We were disappointed when they didn’t include our entire statement in their article…” Maybe it was added after the SGC posted their disappointment, but in addition to quotes and links to the earlier statements SGC made in reply to Rachael Denhollader, the article does provide a link to the full SGC February 13 detailed reply, as well as a link to the SGC’s full response to the article. (Given that their statement to CT was 6 paragraphs long, did they really, reasonably expect a full printing?)

I wonder if SGC read the artilce in full? There’s a whole section on “Important Qualifications” which includes a very sympathetic paragraph speculating on the difficulties the leadership would have legitimately encountered regarding how to handle such matters, and the article cautions about “harshly criticizing pastors” who were “confused or ignorant about the best way forward…” at the time.

By the way, has SGM/SGC officially referred to itself before now as a “denomination”? I thought it was a “family” of churches…

The entire garbage about their lack of authority is so weak, it isn’t funny. 1.) Everyone can plainly see that the polity was designed to provide them the legal loophole that he claims now. 2.) Mark, himself, has been accused of being part of the cover-up, so he has a vested interest in not pursuing an investigation. 3.) There is nothing about requesting an investigation that violates the polity. 4.) If he was so concerned about violating the polity, a council of elders could be held via video or phone in an emergency session.

I am very disappointed to continue to watch someone who I once saw as a friend continue down this path.

I think their whole statement just testifies to the extent of emotional control that CJ has over the people under him – mixed in with their idolatry of him.

When I read this statement:
“Clearly any specific allegations of child sexual abuse should be reported to criminal and child protection authorities, regardless of the passage of time”…I thought to myself, that is what it will take. A new allegation that starts with filing a police report and then taking it to the media. Not the first time I’ve thought that recently.

Rachael D. waited to come forward until she thought she would be believed about Larry Nassar. She went to the media and the police.

I believe the Holy Spirit continues to set more survivors free from being silenced by the emotional control of SGC as more people step forward in the media and speak truth and publicly call SGC to accountability. Even though SGC thinks it has found a way once again to talk their way out of submitting themselves to anyone but CJ, all that is needed is for one survivor who has, until now, remained a silenced voice to come forward and press “new” charges and go to the media.

Pray for that person’s freedom and voice because it will cost them a lot to go public, as Rachael found. But on the other side of their fear, they will find a new “church” family who will believe them, love them, and support them as Rachael has also found. And they will be able to finally rest in knowing that they were used by King Jesus to bring an end to an abusive system that has a culture that has made possible such appalling abuse of children who are precious to the heart of our Father in Heaven. Pray.

Kris- my husband said that your post is probably the best analysis of SGM thinking that he ever read.

Jenn- does the new polity not allow degiftings any more?

The fact that CLC has left SGM does not change the fact that all of this stuff happened while CLC was part of SGM under CJ’s leadership. It’s classic evasion of responsibility, not unlike what they accuse victims of sex abuse of doing with regard to their sin. (another observation from hubby)

I was once best friends with the present leader of SGC. In fact, I was the person who led him to CFC several years ago. The leader’s wife at the time was very hesitant in attending the church because she suspected that it may be a cult. (Good discernment) I work ed very closely with the leader at a large Pharma company and was his boss at the beginning of our friendship. he followed me to our home office and actually betrayed me twice to get ahead at the company and to become a leader in SGM. I forgave him and eventually went with him to Pittsburgh to plant His church in the rich suburbs. His vision before his elevation was to minister to the poor, addicted, homeless, etc. Opps, not many of those in Upper St. Clair.We eventually left the church because it was not a good place for non home schooled children to attend and the mystery surrounding LT’s departure.

He “loved” the church plant until the upward call came from CLC to be one of their pastors in Chads Ford, PA.(Another area steeped in poverty. NOT!) They made room for him by degifting one of their own. His rise to the top of SGC is history.

MP was trained to deal with crisis management and negotiation by the best in the business. That coupled by his humble, caring and nice demeanor certainly makes him well qualified to be the Mahaney and SGC front man. MP makes a great #2 man who can be manipulated by others in his ambitious pursuit of upward mobility. I personally am appalled by what I have heard and read about concerning his protectionist tactics over the years. I have tried to reach out to him by calling his office (his admin daughter would not let me through, emails and via his twitter account. No response.

Jenn Grover is absolutely correct in what she posts here and elsewhere. She and her brother were once very loyal to MP and his church plant. The SGC system is a “pastoral cult” that is in large part Roman Catholic in polity (unofficially of course) and contains many beliefs of the horrendous “Shepherding Movement” which LT and CJ explored. (I witnessed it in person). From my past, it is amazing that people believe the pastoral covering crap and will protect the movement without reason or discernment. I was there in the 80s, ready to follow my pastor to Mobile, AL. Thank God that I had a wife with discernment. I believe the abuse cover up stories but the spiritual authority abuse is by far the bigger issue and problem that has ruined many lives. It continues today.

I believe the abuse cover up stories but the spiritual authority abuse is by far the bigger issue and problem that has ruined many lives. It continues today.

This right here is why the sex abuse stuff caused me to go on hiatus from this site. SGM’s/SGC’s issues are so much bigger, but the abuse stories are what get the headlines.

And that’s actually a dangerous thing, because as awful as the abuse situations were/are, and as possibly widespread as the problem may have been within Sovereign Grace churches, it’s merely a symptom of a subtly twisted yet highly destructive system that is arguably still in place because many of the pastors raised up to leadership in the system are still at Sovereign Grace churches. As far as I know, to this day, Sovereign Grace’s current leadership has never formally repudiated much of their faulty beliefs and practices.

This is why I could never recommend a Sovereign Grace church. It’s also why I cringe inside every time my own church whips out the Sovereign Grace worship music. The lyrics are always theologically correct, of course, and some of the tunes are definitely catchy earworms (lookin’ at you, Glorious Christ). But to me, Sovereign Grace worship songs are the bait that’s been used to lure unsuspecting believers into thinking the whole organization must be kosher because the music is kosher. The music is like a gateway drug.

I know people don’t necessarily care whether or not I’d recommend Sovereign Grace churches, but I still feel the need to add a semi-disclaimer.

Sovereign Grace churches are (here’s another simile for you guys today) a little bit like opioid pain meds. A lot of people – I daresay the majority of people? – can take these pain meds appropriately and go off of them with little trouble. They aren’t destructive for all people, or even most people.

Sovereign Grace churches are like that, too. They’re not destructive for everyone. Many many people, particularly those who fit the mold of the Happy SG Person (or Couple, or Family), will be able to skate along, enjoy the good, and never bump up against the bad.

It’s just that, beneath the seemingly healthy innocuous surface, a lot of the old dysfunction has never even been recognized or rejected by Sovereign Grace’s leaders and pastors. They’re not even aware of what shaped the organization into what it is today, or what went wrong, or why “angry bitter Brent” is still going after “nice sweet happy funny CJ Mahaney.” They do not see that the forces that set the stage for Sovereign Grace’s coverup of abuse and all the rest of the dysfunction are the same forces that caused many of them to rise up to leadership.

So…. in fairness to SGM/SGC, if all I do is read their doctrinal statement, I pretty much agree. I also do not have a problem with submitting to wise pastors to a point (key word is wise). Church is like a job to some extent, you can leave if you don’t like it.

What I saw at SGM many years ago….. Perhaps early on they had good intentions, but I think over time SGM just became an employment machine for friends and family. Perhaps CJ really did become a Calvinist, or he realized the power of differentiation and came up with the “reformed charismatic” monicker. As it grew, they needed to ensure that all the churches were in line which meant ensuring that “company men” were put in charge. Planting churches was like opening up a new Starbucks and the pastors’ college was “management training”. To echo what Kris wrote, their doctrine produced horrible results because many of the pastors were simply not cut out to pastor. They were trained to employ cookie-cutter approaches to complex problems. Pastors with wisdom and a heart for people realize that every situation is different and there are not always easy answers from the handbook. You can sure see this with the abuse cases. But, in a more general sense, that “cult like” vibe a lot of people reported was due to the franchise mindset.

One more thing…. let’s just say that none of the coverup allegations are true. Then read through some of those email exchanges that Brent published in his documents. Then ask yourself if those men should be leaders of a denomination.

Thanks for the affirmation. Because I would go literally months without doing anything with this site, I’d forgotten a lot of the stuff I’d written years ago. I spent some time over the weekend rereading old posts, and when I came across the one above (from 2011), it hit me that it’d be helpful for anyone new to the Sovereign Grace story, particularly those who are thinking the sex abuse coverups are SG’s basic problem.

Obviously, I’m glad the abuse cases are getting the attention they deserve, but in a weird way, all that type of focus – first the lawsuits a few years ago, then this new coverage – have given SG’s defenders an easy out.

We can see this at work with the statements Sovereign Grace has made. They are quick to point out the lawsuit was dismissed (albeit on a technicality, not because the charges were deemed to be without merit). They point to the fact that Sovereign Grace churches weren’t the only churches where this type of thing happened. They express their sorrow over the pain experienced by victims.

And thus they are able to truncate any deeper discussion of the underlying dysfunction over why the coverups happened in the first place. By putting the focus on a dozen or so specific (albeit terrible) situations, they can cause most people to assume the problems have been contained and addressed. Most people with a passing curiosity are not going to take the time (or even have the theological wherewithal) to see the subtleties of how Sovereign Grace churches differ from other conservative Bible-preaching churches with a Reformed bent.

Totally agree with you that Sovereign Grace’s doctrinal statements are perfectly fine. That’s a huge part of why so many other legitimate ministries without issues continue to partner with them and refuse to call them out for their problems. It’s because it’s so hard to discern that there even ARE problems. At present, the abuse coverup scandal is drawing attention, but I think SG’s hope is that it will all die down just as it did before…and their core defenders will carry on just as they’ve always done.

Kris, I whole heartedly agree about the abuse cases revealing what’s at the heart of the cover-up.

Dave knows MP, perhaps like no other. And I know Dave well enough to be confident that like me, we wish nothing more than to see MP restored to God and set free from the deceit that is the byproduct of his ambition. It brings me no joy to see him in this scandal.

The statements and tactics broadcast a loud message: nothing has changed in SGM. You can dress them up in a new polity, but the behavior is the same. They saw nothing wrong with the old behavior, so why would they change?

Meant to comment sooner. Yes, supposedly there are a great many people who never joined the lawsuit or came out publicly with their stories. But they exist. Maybe they have gone on with their lives, or maybe they don’t want to name their child.

“Taylor”‘s story is a good example of the craziness Kris described. I don’t think she joined the lawsuit. A couple snips:

We were all brought in for counseling with the pastors, first me and my daughter separately, where she had to again tell what had happened, and where she was told she needed to forgive her father, that she was a sinner too, and didn’t she feel that she had sinned by not telling me sooner, and we were made to feel that she had somehow sinned by allowing it to continue, even insinuating that maybe she had even wanted that attention a bit. She was TEN YEARS OLD.

……

After about two months of this kind of counseling by the pastors, I was told that in order to truly be a Godly wife, I had to forgive my husband because my sins as a less than Godly wife had also contributed to my daughter’s abuse. I was told that had I better met my husband’s needs physically, he wouldn’t have been tempted elsewhere. A meeting was held at Pastor Fred’s house, where my husband could apologize to my daughter for hurting her and ask her to forgive him. Again she was reminded by Pastor Fred that she was a sinner too, and that Jesus had forgiven her, so she must forgive her father to be a good Christian.

So I was told to allow him to move back home, and to make sure I had physical relations with him regularly, and books were offered telling me how to have a Godly sexual relationship with him, like Intended for Pleasure: Sex Technique and Sexual Fulfillment in Christian Marriage, and The Five Love Languages.

I was told to put a lock on my daughter’s door, on the inside, and every night after I had kissed her goodnight, she had to lock her door to keep her father out.

You wonder how many there are out there we never heard about. The SGM moral equivalency of making perps and wives and kid victims equal sinners is disgraceful. Jesus spoke of greater and lesser sins, and greater and lesser punishments in the next life. I would think sexually abusing a child is one of the greatest sins of all, if not the greatest. You never, ever, tell a child, or the wife of a pedophile, that they are to blame for what happened.

My husband thinks that SGM got hold of CCEF/Powlison materials in the 90s about being responsible for our sins, and we are all sinners. Perfectly good stuff. The charismatic movement had a lot of blaming the devil and binding the devil, and praying for inner healing, and seeing ourselves as victims of the devil attacking or our bad childhood, etc. We had to face up to our own fallen nature and bad responses and stop being victims. We had to grow up and be responsible.

But SGM took a truth and (as “Sopwith” said a few threads back) weaponized the doctrine of indwelling sin. That doctrine didn’t become a path to the grace of forgiveness, but it became something to beat people with. It wasn’t secondary to the fact that we are born again with a new nature and new heart and new spirit, it became primary and twisted and central.

Reformed theology uses the term “heresy of emphasis”. Something can be true, or mostly true, but get an emphasis that scripture and God never intended. It isn’t heretical in the doctrinal statement sense, more in the application, and strong overemphasis.

Anyway, maybe more folks will come forward, maybe not. I honestly can’t picture SGM agreeing to an investigation. Will be interesting to watch what happens with the big dogs. This is their chance to repent and redeem themselves from the past, or to join in the spin.

The statements and tactics broadcast a loud message: nothing has changed in SGM. You can dress them up in a new polity, but the behavior is the same. They saw nothing wrong with the old behavior, so why would they change?

One thing I don’t understand is why so many people believe these leaders are completely truthful and trustworthy. They had obvious motivation for smoothing things over and maintaining as much of the status quo as they could.

The only thing that I might add is that SGM pastors did this exact thing w each other (frequently “de-gifting” godly pastors who weren’t “humble” enough) but C.J. and the rest of the “apostolic” team weren’t subject to it and anyone who called them out or called for justice was proud and rebellious.

The only thing that I might add is that SGM pastors did this exact thing w each other (frequently “de-gifting” godly pastors who weren’t “humble” enough) but C.J. and the rest of the “apostolic” team weren’t subject to it and anyone who called them out or called for justice was proud and rebellious.

There certainly was/is a double standard. You basically couldn’t question or point out issues with anyone that was “above” you in the SGM food chain. Of course with this Mahaney being on the top couldn’t be questioned or issues with his character pointed out. After all Mahaney was the group’s “pope” whether leadership wanted to admit he was or not.

“A former ministry partner of Mahaney turned critic, Brent Detwiler, has been chronicling the controversy for many years and claims that 100 pastors, 300 small group leaders, 40 churches (including his own), and 12,000 members have left SGC churches largely over what they claim has been abusive and deceitful leadership.” [which is what he wants to investigate ]

Drew, having personally interacted with Brent about this I can tell you that he does care, very much. Perhaps there is a drive for vindication there, but that really doesnt seem to be his primary motive. I am not too worried about whether or not his message is without sin, because by and large, Brent has been factually correct and his posts can be fairly easily corroborated. Secondly, even if that is his motive, it would not invalidate the truth he brings about the abuse. SGM was notorious for dismissing a charge by turning the tables on the person bringing the charge and basically deeming their charge invalid because of some perceived sin. An SGM pastor (current) just tried the same crap with me, recently, when I asked an honest, authentic question. I don’t care to try to figure out what Brent’s motive may or may not be.

I think a point that is often missed is that Brent appears to be the only SGM leader who was trying (imperfectly, like the rest of us) to live out what was taught. He actually believed it and believed it applied to him, as well. Brent has acknowledged errors in the ways he did certain things. Most of us who have left still regularly become newly aware of convicted about the way we perceived things, or the way we did things in SGM. I trust Brent is in the same boat.

I don’t think you can separate the issue of conspiracy to cover up sexual abuse with SGM’s abusive practices. They created a culture for predators to find a home, a culture where people did not question authority, and a culture that punished those who did not do as the leaders instructed (see ex CLCer’s story.) The abuse and patterns are also clearly on display in their communication since he scandal broke in 2011 and still obvious, today.

Drew, I think part of the issue I have with you is that you jump in here to defend SGM, with no, “horse in the race”, but do not seem to have bothered to educate yourself about SGM history or behavior patterns. A lot of us know, first hand. I was a part of 3 different SGM churches over almost 20 years, part of a church plant, and my brother was a Pastor’s College graduate. I experienced SGM leaders lying, directly, experienced their heavy handed leadership. I also experience what godly leadership looks like, thanks to Mark Altrogge.

Drew, I am not sure why you come her, but it might help if you wouldn’t mind to explain. Is it to try to help us? Is it to stir the pot, is it to try to present an alternate perspective? Is it a little of all of the above?

Drew, I am going to assume you missed my last question and are not dodging it…

Drew, I am not sure why you come here, but it might help if you wouldn’t mind to explain. Is it to try to help us? Is it to stir the pot, is it to try to present an alternate perspective? Is it a little of all of the above

I think I can speak for many others here when I say I can’t think of an “alternative perspective” that involves removing Brent’s commentary from the equation and thereby discrediting the documents he has made available for all of us to read and evaluate on our own, plus the various testimonies that are available on this site.

For that reason, we view your question as a diversion into a bottomless rabbit hole. If you can explain why the answer to your question matters, we are willing to move forward in this discussion.

So, nobody is willing to say whether or not Brent was de-gifted. I do know he was removed as pastor of an SGM church, that no longer exists.
______

Of greater interest to me is; just how charismatic were the SGM churches back in the day? Other than a grand total of two services, I’ve never been a part of a charismatic “gifts” church. I heard about “holy laughter” from Rodney Brown and I was aware of the “Toronto Blessing” where them moved from Holy Laughter to animal sounds until the late John Wimber, as I recall, renounced the practice. I also know about Brownsville and currently in Northern California there is a church and school that appears to be following in that direction.

So, if you attended a PDI/SGM church before say 2010, – were the “gifts of the spirit” a regular part of a service? Did people get up and speak in tongues in the middle of a service or break out in holy laughter?

Rachaels’s comments about the arrest are a few posts down on her Facebook page. It’s the one that in which she starts out talking about her daughters :) She’s posted a few updates today that pushed the one I was referencing further down on her page. Bird of a feather certainly always flock together.

Drew said earlier, “I don’t think Brent gives a care about the abuse issue. I think Brent only cares about C.J.

WAS BRENT De-Gifted? That would explain a lot.”

When you explain what the above statement means, then maybe we will trust you. Until then, we view any attempt by you to discuss whether or not Brent was “de-gifted” as an attempt to draw some kind of false connection betweeen the validity of an argument discrediting SGM and Brent’s possible attitude toward them.

Why is it that no ever bring up that People of Destiny consciously and intentionally followed Watchman Nee in his view about the continuity of apostleship and authority in the church? Watchman Nee clearly states that the church is not subject to any authority except God. According to Nee, the church did have to hold itself accountable to governmental law. This is a clear explanation for the culture of SGM.

5years in PDI
Revisiting some of “Taylor’s Story” is still as sickening as ever —and ever so revealing of the inner workings of leaderships manipulative, twisted ‘counsel’ and perverse strutting of authority

TrueBlue states the core alarming issue:
“I believe the abuse cover up stories, ** but the spiritual authority abuse is by far the bigger issue that has ruined many lives.** It continues today.”

—Because of twisted polity and leadership structure—abuse can only continue,and be protected. As Kris stated “The old dysfunction has never been recognized or rejected by Sovereign Grace leaders.” Leadership and polity structure is able to chug along thanks to the many congregants who are content and seemingly unaffected by dysfunctional pollution.

However, as our family member says “It all tasted really good going down until we knew it was poison.” We have talked with many many former congregants, who even after leaving SGM up to 10 years ago or more, continue to “see” the steals and wounds from spiritual abuse from SGM. We who were a part of SGM know, we never ever expected (or even knew about) “spiritual abuse”. The deep sadness, grief, hurt, shock,rejection…by those who were our pastors and leaders.This is a category of its own in “binding up the broken-hearted.”

Accountability for perpetrators of spiritual abuse? How does this come about? — Declaring what is true; prayer that Holy Spirit continues to reveal all that is hidden…Love loves truth.

Perhaps because R Dehollander is gifted in intellect as an attorney—a desire to get to the root of issues and how and why it all works…I pray the Lord will move through her to see and give voice to the reality of SGM’s twisted leadership polity and control…which leaves the door wide open for spiritual, sexual, mental, and emotional abuse.

I think most of us are familiar with the concept of trolls: people who exist in discussions, whose only purpose is to cause trouble. I’ve found the best way to deal with someone who refuses to answer questions, is dishonest, and exists to distract me from the truth (given that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light, I consider trying to distract people from truth to be evil), is to ignore them. If they are doing God’s work, (and I’m wrong about them), then may they be blessed and prosper.

While there are moments to interact, for the most part, I find it’s best not to feed trolls. They want attention and don’t care about the damage they do to truth. Eventually, if they get zero attention, they go away.

As far as I know, “de-gifting” is not an official term. We (well, I) use it in a snarky fashion to refer to pastors who suddenly were found to be not “gifted” enough to continue in their work – and from my perspective, it was used on people who rubbed CJ the wrong way, but otherwise with whom no serious fault could be found. But I could be wrong.

I don’t know if Brent was “de-gifted.” I was gone by that time, and I forget what he has said. But I think it’s obvious to anyone with any sense that Brent has an attitude toward CJ, though I also believe him when he says he cares deeply about CJ – but so what?

You have refused to explain why this matters – and don’t forget, keep it in the context of the mishandling of sex abuse cases, and other SGM/SGC leadership abuse issues for which there is an abundance of information and testimony from others. If you are just talking in general about Brent’s attitude toward CJ, you should join Brent on facebook and discuss it with him yourself. But when you discuss his attitude in general here, it screams “diversion.” And that is the problem…

Drew, we aren’t answering you because if you bothered to take the time to understand the issues, you would know. There are plenty of posts on this site that address that. There is no lack of transparency. Brent, himself, has a site that chronicles everything. I am not interested in catering to you. Outthere is exactly right. Your diversions are childish.

dtetheman – the whole issue of apostles has been discussed, ad nauseum. I recommend trying to use the search function before you cast stones.

“Bridget asked what reason Brent gives for the failure of the Mooresville church plant. I gather from “Part 4 — the Untold Story (Incomplete)” and point #7 under “The Ethical Demise of Sovereign Grace Ministries (Part 2)” that he blames a number of people (CJ, Dave H, Bob K, Gene E), etc. for conspiring to remove him, which quickly brought about the demise of the church. I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen any other explanation from him.”

“I was a member of CrossWay at the time, and we were told a little bit, but not much about what was going on in Mooresville. We found out later from several individuals who were in the Mville church that they were really in the dark and had no idea what was going on. Can you say shell-shocked? So Brent was removed, and then the question was what to do. Bring in a new pastor from somewhere else or dissolve the church? There was discussion about whether to send both Jim Hawkins and Mike Seaver (CrossWay pastors at the time; later to plant the church in Summerville, SC) to take over as pastors. CrossWay decided that it would not be a good idea to send Hawkins and Seaver, so the church was shut down. The people in the Mooresville church apparently didn’t really have any say in the matter, which generated a lot of resentment, as you can imagine. A lot of really messed up people returned to CrossWay. Some did not. Some who went back to CrossWay left within a short time, and a few remain to this day.”

***************

So, he was forced out. Yes it is essentially a degifting, although a bit different than many of the other degiftings. Yes, he is obviously hurt and traumatized and bitter. Yes he has an attitude from it. However, I think his posts about criminal actions like the hush fund are accurate. I think of it like Vinny and Mario kicking Tony out of the gang, and Tony retaliates by telling the fed where the bodies are buried.

disclaimer- this is the internet. Any quotes about Brent could be right up there with “I saw Elvis on a UFO next to planet X”. Or they could be true. I don’t want him on here hollering that I am slandering him.

Let- thanks for your very kind comments up the thread. Much appreciated.

Dtetheman- welcome. Things seem to get a bit hot here some times, don’t let it bother you. Yes, W Nee was big, and I read him early on in my “shepherding and discipleship” days and gave pastors the very regard I would give the Lord. ( Ugh). But I thought the influence of the Ft Lauderdale 5 was the biggest thing. I could be wrong.

Jenn- do you not GET IT???? Until Brent repents of all the shepherding crap, this subject is perfectly acceptable so long as Brent is going to be adored and lauded by so many people here as the good guy.

from above, “waters” :

“I believe the abuse cover up stories, ** but the spiritual authority abuse is by far the bigger issue that has ruined many lives.** It continues today.”

—Because of twisted polity and leadership structure—abuse can only continue,and be protected. As Kris stated “The old dysfunction has never been recognized or rejected by Sovereign Grace leaders.”

Brent IS SGM. If they had read the docs and kicked out CJ and asked Brent to be the head honcho, he would have gone right back to ruling the entire thing with an iron fist. He hated the fact that CJ would not play by the SGM rules that everybody else had to play by- but he never renounced the rules themselves. He never renounced all the authoritarian control, legalism, leader worship, etc. He never renounced the things that made SGM the damaging cult that it was.

What he has going for him is that he himself called the cops on pedophiles, and that is truly something positive. Credit where credit is due. But it doesn’t change the fact that Brent is still the same Brent who was an “apostle” for 25 years, creating the very air we breathed and absorbed into our inner soul in SGM. A very dysfunctional and probably at times demonic atmosphere.

**************

In the perfect timing of God, I talked to a very old friend over the weekend. We go back pre my PDI days, although I haven’t talked to them in three or four years. They retired and moved quite some distance to be near the kids. And the kids are going to a-voila-SGM church.

My friend has visited the church often and she really likes it. Hub is adamant that he feels uncomfortable making any commitment there. So they are visiting around. I asked if they were aware of the recent fresh concerns about SGM that have just come up, and the CT editorial. The immediate strong response was that this is a rehash of years ago, and churches have been arguing since the middle ages about when to keep things in the church and when to go to civil authorities. SGM chose to keep it in the church, maybe right, maybe wrong, but a subject of debate for centuries. No big deal, doesn’t matter.

I felt led to not press it, I felt like it would go nowhere at this time. But the point is, by making this all about not calling the cops, we just help SGM look like victims of unfair criticism. Poor SGM who wanted to obey I Corinthians 6 and keep this in the church.

I happen to think that IF there was a good investigation, all the things we discuss and especially the opening post here by Kris, would be exposed…like this sentence:

“SGMers are taught that pastors, by virtue of their higher calling and “gifting,” possess special abilities to perceive a person’s sins more accurately than the person himself.”

That, and a whole lot more. A great deal would come out. I think Brent as a former apostle would end up being humiliated by the final report on how SGM viewed apostles, as well as pastors, and how that apostle enforced culture contributed to the cover ups. CJ would be exposed, but he would not be the only one. But again, I am skeptical that an investigation will happen, and in the meantime, I wish people would get it that not calling cops was a symptom, not the underlying problem.

5 Years said, “Brent is going to be adored and lauded by so many people here as the good guy.”

Hey 5 Years, how are you doing? I could be off on this, but I really don’t see anyone here adoring or lauding Brent. I mean, every once in a while someone will come on here and do so, but for the most part, I don’t see anyone here as seeing him other than the way you do, though maybe not quite as strongly. Like I said, I may be off.

I loved your final line, “I wish people would get it that not calling cops was a symptom, not the underlying problem.” A-men.

“for the most part, I don’t see anyone here as seeing him other than the way you do, though maybe not quite as strongly.”

stunned- my apologies then. I have perhaps mistaken silence on various occasions as lack of agreement…..or taken the lack of defense when BD railed at me as agreeing with him. Perhaps I should have seen it as intelligent, ie, Prov 26.17, Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears. :)

5Years – My bigger issue is with Drew not bothering to do a little reading and throwing out lame arguments, more or less seemingly, just to argue or defend SGM. His implication is that it is impossible for Brent to care about the victims because he is consumed with bitterness because he was degifted. That is a classic SGM ploy: discredit the one bringing the messenger, based on flaws in their character or message. My point is that Brent can both be flawed and be correct in his message. He can be guilty of lording authority over others and yet feel appropriate righteous anger over what has happened to victims. I do not think that because you believed in or taught shepherding you need to repent. You need to repent if you abused authority, yes, but believing in a wrong teaching makes you wrong.If you knowingly and willfully used an errant teaching to abuse people, yes, repentance is required. If you were well intended and wrong, that isn’t quite the same thing.

It should be noted that it was not uncommon for charismatics in the 1970’s and 1980’s to read and follow some of Watchman Nee’s teachings. My own mother, not affiliated with SGM, read Watchman Nee. By the time I arrived in the 1990’s, there was no mention of Watchman Nee. Were there still some evidences of shepherding? Not so much. But, the Knoxville church, which came from Maranatha, also was exposed to shepherding. It was a fairly common theme. It was errant teaching and probably somewhat contributed to the abuse of power, but I actually blame the Neo Calvinists more because it has been this love of reputation and celebrity status, dare I say worldliness, that has been far more harmful and has led these leaders to be stiff-necked.

5 Years said, “Perhaps I should have seen it as intelligent, ie, Prov 26.17, Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears. :)”

Well, no one has ever accused me of being intelligent, so I wouldn’t go that far. ;)

I’m sorry if you felt alone in all that. I hadn’t meant to make you feel alone. I hadn’t read every bit of the dialogue between you two, though I did scan it somewhat. The majority of the reason I didn’t read it much or respond isn’t because of agreement or not to what was being said, but because I didn’t think it was going to be fruitful for me to say anything. I feel as if anything I could have added has already been said by me in the past. Once I’ve said something (or said something a few times) to the same person, I’m not really sure it’s my job to say it, again. And at this rate, I know I’m not anyone’s personal Holy Spirit. So I try to say something once (or a few times- I don’t always have tons of self control) to someone, and then leave the rest up to God to convict or not, letting Him see fit to do his work in His time. That, and the awareness that I don’t always know what’s going on in someone’s heart keeps me quiet (once in a great while.)

stunned- wise thoughts, and thank you. I am happy to accuse you of intelligence.

Jenn- it is who you believe. At the end of the day, do you believe BW-Friendly Fire, or not? Do you believe Kim-Res Ipsa about the climate in Brent’s church that hurt a lot of people, or not?

While I assume any normal person with a shred of empathy feels enraged about pedophila and coddling perps, while wives and kids get trampled, why is it so wrong to think BD has some ulterior motives? I am far from the only person I know who thinks he is using every weapon in his arsenal to attack CJ, and this (sex abuse cover up stories) is by far the best weapon.

I do think there is some righteous anger in there as well. But after 25 years as an apostle, which had a whole lot of sociopathy operating in the top rung, why is Drew or anybody wrong to think his motives are significantly just anti CJ and crew? When he refuses to repent of the foundational apostolic teachings of SGM, why am I supposed to think his motives are different now? When exactly did they change from control and lording it over the flock?

I am sceptical, Drew is sceptical. When I see an apology for what SGM was, then I will think there has been real change. I had to profusely apologize to my kids for various garbage we put on them in the past….why would it be any different for BD? My kids respect us and trust us, but we had to apologize and say we were wrong. This is basic Christianity.

And bitterness…can’t you see it? It oozes out all the time. Understandable, but still bitterness.

Re Drew- I think a skeptical voice can be a good thing here. If this blog is right, then the following people are deceived or blind or naive or even corrupt to some degree:

I can see why somebody would have a very very hard time believing the claims of this blog. If I hadn’t been there, maybe I wouldn’t either. I think of Drew as a typical YRR who at least is willing to interact, which is a lot more than most of them would do.

Drew- had to google Frank Page. Never heard of him. Yikes. What is the matter with people….

5Yrs…Brent’s attitude toward CJ and what Rachael Denhollander, or anyone here, is doing or saying have nothing to do with each other. If you remove Brent’s personal commentary about CJ, how does that change any facts, documents, or other people’s testimony?

I believe Friendly Fire. Brent could have a room in his house plastered with articles and photos of CJ all over the walls, but as far as I am concerned, it doesn’t call into question the legitimacy of any of the abuse issues raised. That was my point, and I interpreted Drew’s comments as questioning everything simply based on Brent’s attitude toward CJ.

The issues you bring up (whether or not Brent has repented of his own participation, and his current beliefs that lead to the kinds of abuse that are talked about here) are also another, separate question that does not undermine the complaints he raises about what SGM did in the past. He might be shooting himself in the foot, but…so what? We can all see the emails on his site, we can all read testimony by various other people who have their own story, and conclusions can be made without Brent.

Also, as far as I can tell, Brent is not leading anything other than a crusade to make sure that the criticisms raised by the victims about how SGM treated them are heard. If he were preaching here, or trying to grow a new group of people for him to lead according to the same old structure that caused the problems in the beginning, then I would challenge him on that front. But this is not that front.

I don’t really know exactly how Brent sees the “big” picture. I know he had his own personal issues with CJ that got all this started. And he has seen the internal workings of other leaders, and just how slimy they can be. He appears to be dealing with this solely as a corruption issue – more or less about the wrong motives and actions of the men involved, not about the structure that is in place that promotes such behavior.

If you (or Drew) want to take on Brent – fine. I was not trying to silence any and all criticism of Brent as a whole, just in a limited context. But please be specific about what actions he took that violate what he now claims to stand for. Otherwise, I think you will miss your mark – I don’t think he is looking at the big picture the same way you are, so he is not hearing your comments the way you intend them to be heard. Maybe I am forgetting something he said, but I don’t think he agrees with the larger criticism about the leadership philosophy in general, so claiming he did what they did wouldn’t make sense to him.

5Years, I have no problem with skepticism. Kris has expressed skepticism from time to time. I have a problem with Drew’s laziness. If those people are why he is skeptical, then his skepticism is based on blind loyalty to celebrities and I would take issue with that.

If he has well reasoned and researched objections, then by all means, bring it forward. But he has not done that, he has come here and basically called into question Rachel Denhollander’s credibility and basically asserted that Brent could care less about victims. I’d rather the victims speak for themselves on that issue than a guy who doesnt appear to have even read the lawsuits.

He has accused/suggested that C.J. brought about the end of his pastorate at Mooresville.

[ Having read the posts/comments over the years, I’ve always thought Brent was probably right; C.J. engineered Brent being replaced.]

Brent has been angry every since
[ If I was in Brent’s shoes, I would have been angry ever since. Truely ]

Brent would like to be the judge in the case or at least jury foreman in the case against C.J.
[ In no just system would that be allowed. Recusal etc. ]

(Judicial disqualification, also referred to as recusal, is the act of abstaining from participation in an official action such as a legal proceeding due to a conflict of interest of the presiding court official or administrative officer.)

Has Brent been right about some things? Of Course.

Is he an objective, unbiased observer? Of Course Not.

Can we give C.J. a free pass? I definitely don’t think so.

Was SGM, at one time, a fairly rigid, legalistic institution? It Definitely Appears So

Has SGM continued to be a fairly rigid, legalistic institution? Frankly, I doubt it but I’m not a part of it. Lots of people have left as have churches exhibiting their autonomy to leave.
_________

AS SAID BEFORE. I have Never been a part of SGM, never heard C.J. preach even on tape/youtube, never read his books, never attended a T.F.T.G. conference, have no friends/relatives that have been a part of SGM. But I have been fascinated about the embroglio for years.

Drew,
You remind me of Nero sitting high above the fray in a shaded balcony of the collosium eating grapes, mildly amused by the cries of Christians, as hungry lions roam about eyeing their next meal.
You seem tired and bored.

The important thing, at the end of the day, is that this blog presents a clear position on SGM which I think this thread articulates well, starting with the OP. If the resurgence of interest due to Rachel D brings people from internet searches, we want our position to be clear.

That position is (or should be IMO), that the SGM problem is NOT a decision to keep pedophilia and sex abuse cases under the responsibility of pastors instead of calling cops. No, the problem is much deeper and much darker. You can see it in the way they treated perp’s wives and victims, but had sex abuse cases never happened, not even once, the cultlike darkness of SGM would still have existed and there would still be a long trail of people who they abused.

The issue of who was responsible for all that, and why, is another subject, as OutThere stresses. CJ appeared to me to be the most influential, and BD wrote the papers on the role of apostles and the signs of pride. But I was never close enough to the top to say what role which apostle played, and which pastor, and what might have changed after AoR and many churches leaving. It is enough I suppose that anybody reading here whose life was harmed knows that they were not alone, and it was a widespread systemic abusive system.

At any rate, bungled and inept pastoral dealings with perpetrators was a symptom, and not the underlying multi faceted disease. I think we all agree on that which is the main thing. And any time BD gets on here to post links about evil CJ and cover ups, I will jump in to say the problem was far deeper and he was part of it, until he apologizes. But frankly I’d prefer to not discuss him at all.

PS- Drew- I don’t know specifics, but Rachel was in an SGM church, or one friendly to it, and when she brought up the subject of sex abuse victims, she got “the treatment”. She and her hub left and found another church.

Do you really think SGM has changed, if they treated her as somebody with no credibility?

Drew, if you are so right about Brent, prove where he has been inaccurate. That would, of course, require you to become educated on the victims. I think the irony is that you accuse Brent of not caring about the victims, but at least he knows their stories. You appear to have never bothered to read them. Do you care about the victims?

>5yearsinPDI says:
>I don’t know specifics, but Rachel was in an SGM church, or one friendly to it, and when she brought up the subject of sex abuse victims, she >got “the treatment”. She and her hub left and found another church.
===================================================

Denhollanders attended Immanuel Baptist Church of Louisville. Ryan Fullerton is the senior pastor. He is a celebrity wannabe and a big-time brown-noser of Dever, Mohler, and Mahaney. His efforts have been rewarded with a small role in the upcoming T4G conference.

One thing I will add about Drew is that I am shocked with some of the questions he has asked if he has really been around reading for as long as he claims. I remember in comment Drew said he was around and reading the SGM Refuge blog.

Here were the rules:
I will delete any comments which are slanderous toward any people. “Slander” is defined by the dictionary as “a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report.” I’m qualifying as “false” anything which is not supported by evidence, and I’m qualifying as “evidence” things done publicly or reported by an objective third party. It’s a narrow gate. See to it.

I will delete any comments which are rehashing things already covered by the AoR Report, or calling the AoR report false or otherwise tainted. The world is not in a conspiracy against the battalion of people who claim SGM is run by the minions of Satan, in spite of some opinions to the contrary.

I will welcome thoughtful reflections on the events, but not accusations or tantrums. “What’s the difference,” you ask? Then you better not comment. Seriously.

I reserve the right to be capricious and utterly unfair in my editorial prerogatives.
The other rules for posting here apply.

Would you consider CJ Mahaney’s and SGM Leadership own”type-written by their hands” emails to fall under your definition of “slander”?

Using your own, very narrow, rules of engagement, aren’t you doing that yourself by defining the Ambassadors of Reconciliation (AoR) as non-negotiable if someone has evidence that it wasn’t done fairly?

What is your definition of “minion of Satan”? Please remember, Jesus Himself told Peter to “get behind me Satan”. Most of us are not judging whether or not SGM leadership is saved. Just the opposite. We believe that these men have deeply fallen away from the Lord and are not doing God’s work, but their own. Isn’t that the work of Satan?

Trust me though … I’m not going to waste my time reading your link. Pyromania is a tool of Satan and I have evidence to back it up!

Wow, I like how Drew comes onto someone else’s blog and sets his own ground rules, lol. Forgive me if I don’t follow them.

“The world is not in a conspiracy against the battalion of people who claim SGM is run by the minions of Satan, in spite of some opinions to the contrary.”

I really don’t think anyone believes the world is in a conspiracy, but thanks for the hyperbole. Most of us don’t even view SGM keaders as minions of Satan. Most of us were, at one point dear friends of these folks, and are sad to see them turn to deceit to promote their positions.

I guess firsthand testimony, is not enough for Drew.

Why on earth would we believe there was a conspiracy?

1. There are tapes of CJ blackmailing Larry Tomczak and those tapes have been heard by AoR. This was worsened by the lies that leaders, told us about why Larry left.

2. We have first-hand witness accounts of leaders interfering with police investigations into accusations of child sexual abuse. We know that church members were instructed to not help a victim’s family after the mother disobeyed them and turned in her husband, the step-father abuser of her children (based on testimony of the mother, her children, and members from the church.)

3. SGM has intentionally misrepresented the lawsuits as being dismissed based on merrit when that is categorically false.

4. Emails have been produced revealing conspiracyover and over and no evidence to refute them has EVER been produced that calls into question their authenticity or accuracy. None. SGM has not accused Brent’s reports as false. They simply will not respond or craft messages to divert from the facts.

5. SGM leaders have either avoided or refused to answer questions about the scandal in a public setting, making it easier to misrepresent the facts or mislead people and later deny their actions.

6. The hush fund. There is no reason to believe that the new church of the youth abuser was ever notified nor that any professional treatment for this you abuser has occurred.

7. The many leaders who have left and have revealed that their true stories were never shared with their churches.

8. Discrepancies between what Ted Kober and Ed Kennairth told me, and several others about SGM and what they published in the report.

9. The reports of people involved in the covering up if Dave Harvey’s family problems to protect his position.

There is a lot more evidence than this. Your refusal to avail yourself to this evidence seems to indicate that you likelyhave no genuine interest in the victims or the truth.

People have a legitimate point to say that lots of folks agreed to AoR as mediators, and we should abide by their decision and drop it. Tomczak and Detwiler agreed to talk to them, and hundreds of former members and staff. Fair enough. Everybody agreed to the mediation, so we need to abide by their conclusions. That is how mediation works. OK, we get it, and it is a valid position.

However- and this is a BIG DEAL- REALLY BIG BIG DEAL- AoR put in a statement within the report that they did not feel qualified to adjudicate the sex abuse cases so they recused themselves from a formal report specific to the sex abuse charges.

So, the AoR verdict, whatever you want to say about accepting it in all the other cases like Tomczak blackmail and degiftings and various heavy handed pastoral dealings, does NOT apply to the sex abuse cases.

I went looking for it, so I could quote you the exact paragraph where AoR says they are not qualified to deal with the sex abuse situations. Lo and behold it is no longer on the SGC website. I did a brief search and could not find it linked anywhere…if anybody else can find that quote, please post. It does leave open the legitimacy of Rachel’s call to investigate those particular matters because AoR was not able to.

Drew – I can’t figure out if you are trying to stir things up and get people off topic, or if you are genuine in your attempt to contribute to the dialogue and just not so good at getting your message across in writing…

It is a little bit of hoot that you would set ground rules that clearly indicate a predisposition toward/evaluation of the information that is discussed on this site.

If you have no connection to SGM/SGC, as you say you don’t, why go to such lengths? Why would AoR be off limits? Why would accusations be off limits? And there you go – classic SGM/SGC move to redefine words – “False” is just that: untrue; but you want to expand the definition to include things that are not part of the actual defintion of “false,” in order to limit the speech and control the direction of the conversation.

I am wondering…If you have been paying attention to this site for as long as you say you have, have you always been known as “Drew”? Or have you posted under another name or names?

If there came a troll amongst us whose goal it was to take our eyes off of Jesus, and off of those who needs God’s love for healing, I’d say that with the conversation of late, they would have reached their goal.

How about, instead, we do a roll call, checking in on those who are hurting or were hurt and see what we can do to offer love to them, rather than focus on one who appears one way, but whose purpose seems to be to distract from the purpose.

I’ll start.

I’m in a much different place than I used to be when I first started posting here. I no longer live in the middle of a big city, but out, kind of, in the country side. I have 2 dogs and a dear husband of a few years now. I never see the homeless men who used to sleep on the porch beside my place in the city but we still look for ways to show God’s love to people. I’m still involved in a church, though, as I still go into the city for it, I don’t get in as often as I plan to.

It took me years after SGM before I could even try to begin to trust a church, again.

In that time, God showed me that He wanted me all to Himself. I think it was about 4 years or so before I felt ready to try a church. But I want people to remember that for some of us (me included) it took months or maybe for some, years of being curled up under the covers on a Sunday morning too depressed or shaken or confused to try going to a church. Maybe God will have you at one some day, or maybe never. Maybe you want nothing to do with God. Or maybe God is the only being you think you may ever trust, again. (Personally, I not only get it, I think there is a certain wisdom in that. Even Jesus said He didn’t trust any human because He knew their hearts.)

Whatever you do, please, be gentle with yourself. Don’t condemn yourself or criticize yourself. If you’ve grown up in, or been part of a “high demand” group (which is what I consider SGM to be), you’ve had a ton of junk already dumped on yourself. This is the time to be digging out of it. Or laying still and letting God dig you out as you rest.

Stunned – I agree that if there is a troll, there has been success at diversion. But one last comment (for a while) to explain why I have continued to reply.

Because of Rachael Denhollander’s and CT’s focus on SGM / SGC lately, there is the possibliity more people are looking at this site, maybe people who didn’t check it out during the law suits. Some of those people may be recent SGC people, or they may be older SGC people who held firm against reading anything critical, but now have had enough.

I think it’s interesting that at this time Drew pops up and starts lobbing random questions or comments that he doesn’t explain but which challenge the commentary here on this site; then later in the thread he claims that he is basically a disinterested party just trying to offer perspective. He both rattles things and then tries to appear reasonable.

I was not willing to credit him as significant before, but now I am willing to consider the possibility that he is doing what he is doing with the hopes of throwing off anyone new who is reading. All it takes is for him to say something out of context that goes unchallenged.

I am also willing to consider the possibility that he has done this before, in a different incarnation, back when the lawsuit was first filed.

Stunned,
Thanks for all you shared. You said a lot and I am still mulling it over. You comment about the high demand group really spoke to me as I have a family member who is involved with a high demand person and I’ve realized how easy they are to spot now since my years of detox of SGM and churches of a similar functioning. I will comment more in a little while, but for now just wanted to say that I really like your idea of the “roll call” and keeping our eyes on Jesus.

“Because of Rachael Denhollander’s and CT’s focus on SGM / SGC lately, there is the possibility more people are looking at this site, maybe people who didn’t check it out during the law suits. Some of those people may be recent SGC people, or they may be older SGC people who held firm against reading anything critical, but now have had enough.”

5 Years, I thought you’d be happy for me. Thank you! Turns out marriage, while hard at times, can be quite a lovely thing. :) What a night and day difference. I’m glad God blessed me in this way, too. :)

I think the discrepancies in the AoR Report were easily explained. People came in and told their stories Ambassadors cried with them, sympathized with them and then no mention was made of the circumstance in the report.

I’ve always felt SGM narrowed the focus of the AoR Report to include only the years in which CJ was no longer senior pastor. And, because he wasn’t senior pastor, there were not a lot of incidences of his abuse of authority during that time.

He literally abused the flock for decades and then ordered the AoR Report only cover the time period of Josh Harris’ tenure. Hired by SGM, they had to limit their comments to that period.

I can’t remember all of that now, but that was my first observation when it came out.

As to Drew, originally his comments seemed likely to be coming from Drew at the SGC of Louisville. A second generation adult, he had little first-hand experience of the abusive years and was in complete denial when packing his car for Louisville. But, then came on here appearing to be exploring, but often resisting, as we all did at first. Perhaps his story is changing suddenly because he’s worried about being identified.

5yearsinPDI said:
“I went looking for it, so I could quote you the exact paragraph where AoR says they are not qualified to deal with the sex abuse situations. Lo and behold it is no longer on the SGC website. I did a brief search and could not find it linked anywhere…if anybody else can find that quote, please post. It does leave open the legitimacy of Rachel’s call to investigate those particular matters because AoR was not able to.”
======================================================

“Cases involving allegations of sexual misconduct are sensitive and require special attention and expertise beyond the scope of our Group Reconciliation Assistance. While we were open to listening to people about their concerns we sometimes needed to recommend other avenues of assistance. AoR did not have access to all the information and resources necessary to directly address these concerns.”
-page 19
AOR Report on Sovereign Grace Ministries

Stunned, I am just ever so happy for you! There is a risen Redeemer! He IS Risen, indeed!!

Also, Stunned, I agree, that “if ever there was a troll among us….” taking our eyes off the issues we are discussing, and distracting the intentions of this thread…that would be someone like the Drew.
Courtesy of Balaams’s Donkey: “Drew, you remind me of Nero, sitting high above the collosium eating grapes, mildly amused by the cries of Christians, as hungry lions roam about enjoying their next meal. You seem tired and bored.” May I add, also seems grasping at straws to distract – pulling in discussions to all his talking points.

Because of Denhollander, I believe the polity structure of SGM/SGC is under the microscope. The connecting-the-dots of the hows and whys of the heavy-handed control of leadership, and through leadership,is coming to light. This includes the perverse foundational structure of leadership and leadership wives instructing SGM wives to service their husbands (under the expectation of submission).
At some point, PDI/SGM/SGC lessened building their new denomination on the Rock – slipping into focus for their own “family of churches/greatest place on earth”. We are the Body of Christ, battling those who would maintain an erred structure which has mauled His own.

The subject leaves me confused. Let us assume AoR went into this at first uncorrupted and intending to do their best. I know the AoR mediation happened in 2011-2012 and the lawsuit was not filed before early Jan 2013. However, even before the lawsuit, this blog and maybe SGM Refuge had quite a number of stories related to sex abuse and inept or sinful pastoral responses. And we know AoR was looking at the blogs. Futhermore, the sex abuse related situations are probably the most attention getting of all the stories.

So when you are being paid well over 400,000 dollars, how could you end up putting out a report that says these cases are beyond the scope of your expertise? Why wouldn’t you decide part way through that you were in over your head, you were not able to mediate these major problems (Noel, Wallace and Happy Mom, etc), and resign? How can you continue, accept that money, and then put out a report that does not cover these cases? I am sure SGM liked it, no question, and SGM was paying, so everybody was happy. But is this not corruption? Am I being too critical?

We know guys that work for a company with a lot of clients, and when they take on a project for a client, they have to know that they can actually do the project and have the expertise to complete the work. You don’t take on a job and at the end say “oh by the way, we couldn’t do this one big important part, but our bill is $400,000”. I can see that SGM was glad to pay it since it avoided a mess for AoR to ignore the sex abuse cases in the report…..but it sure seems like a racket to me. Am I missing something? Is this cynicism, and AoR is typical of mediation?

It does mean Rachel’s call for a denomination wide investigation of the sex abuse cases is valid, since the CLC one with a lawyer didn’t even interview the victims. But 400,000 down the drain of people’s tithes and offerings….just awful.

Is this true? ( from above) “He- CJ- literally abused the flock for decades and then ordered the AoR Report only cover the time period of Josh Harris’ tenure. Hired by SGM, they had to limit their comments to that period.” If that was true, did it mean they didn’t interview anybody with a bad story from before 2004? If I had known that I never would have been positive about AoR in the beginning. Mediators have to be able to deal with the root problems in relationships and they can go back a long long time.

Oh well, glad to be out. Nice church service today and thankful to be saved and on my way to heaven.

5Years – I had not heard that the AoR investigation was limited to Josh’s tenure but I think that it is entirely possible that the SGM agreement signed by AoR and SGM limited what could be published. SGM will never release that contract, willingly. I have always hoped that someday it would be subpoenaed. The Tomczakz are among those who spoke with SGM and were told something in direct opposition to the SGM report, as were my brother and myself, and others. The Tomczacks certainly were in SGM before Josh.

I started to re-read the report, tonight and had to stop. I have to wonder how the authors stomached what they did. It was completely disingenuous.

It would good if this added attention and perhaps spotlight that Rachel Hollander has brought to Sovereign Grace did get more of the people that stayed to start thinking. Hopefully this will. Sadly so many in Sovereign Grace churches were trained to always “believe the best” and close their ears to any type of negative information about the group or leaders. Even discussing things or raising valid questions was many times taught to be “gossip.”

Time will tell. Maybe someone of Rachel’s caliber and fame will be a tipping point.

I saw this today. It’s a clip from a few days ago of a second Fox News interview that Rachael D. gave on the Martha MacCallum program “The Story” regarding the Michigan State University investigation and what it is showing about the amount of protectionism that MSU is engaged in.

I see this as an another opportunity she has been given to draw public attention to the fact that she is a credible and a discerning voice.

I had a little trouble getting the video to load properly at first. I had to advance the marker to about 30 seconds in and then an arrow popped up that I could click on to start the video. Hope you can get it to play. She is a strong voice that is not backing down. Good to see her invited back for another interview…even though this one is not about SGC as her previous one was.

This is Water’s husband. I have a question for Steve Shank, Dave Bendinelli,Pete Payne and any other “pastor” or wife that was involved in what happened in the Denver church to my daughter and grandchildren.
My question to them is this: would you council your daughters in the same exact way that you did my daughter?
I doubt I will see any response from them on this site but am hoping that maybe somebody can give a phone number or email site for any of the people mentioned above. I am just learning some of the behind the scenes actions.

I guess you don’t care any details but When you use the term about what these leaders did to your daughter makes me wonder if these Denver church leaders counseled your daughter to stay in an abusive relationship like we have seen before within SGM.

A woman we referred to as “Esther” as I recall was in an abusive situation that the now defrocked Gene Brooks oversaw. Gene Emerson was a regional leader also Sr. Pastor of Kingsway church in Richmond VA. I believe this incident with Esther happened at the Virginia Beach Church. The poor woman at the Virginia Beach church was threatened with “church discipline” if she dared leave an abusive marriage.

Well yall…. Today we were organizing old letters and correspondences from during our daughters ‘journey’. There was a set which contained slimey details of pastoral ‘instruction’ and ‘counsel’. Mr had not read them, as our daughter had determined these details were not only personally painful, but would probably cause her father to do bodily harm to the above “pastors”. I’m fine with the bodily harm, but wouldn’t want Mr to suffer arrest etc. —-

Email addresses and phones for these men are unneeded…we remember they speak in SGMese circles. Meanwhile, we know Light is continuing to uncover the years of hidden/unrepented of, evidence of SGM’s twisted polity. Light and Truth are rolling like a river….do you hear it, SGM??????

Waters, I love ya, Girlfriend. Mr. Waters, I’m sad for the pain your sweet daughter and grandchildren have had to suffer through their affiliation with SGM. I am so glad they and you and so many of us are out.

You said, “Light and Truth are rolling like a river…” Amen. Oh yes, it is. It is so good to hear that your daughter is “thriving in redemption.” May our God continue to pour forth His blessings on you and your precious family. I join you and the others here in thankfulness for being out.

To PDI,SGM,SGC (and all other past and present aliases) both ordained and unordained:

I continue to be astonished by your consistent arrogance, lack of acknowledgement and your relenting preaches that you are completely right about, well, everything. You truly believe that you are the mere victims of evil.

It is just so deeply rooted into your dna that just can’t see it. Well, “Awake o sleeper. Arise from the dead. And Christ will shine on you.” Ephesians 5:14. Consider the words of the people and their broken hearts. But most important, take individual action to change. You might just find peace among those that have already approached you biblically.

This site is not evil. It’s participants are far from your enemies. But I suspect closer to friends then you may think. Maybe try to extend an olive branch? When have you done this?

Don’t ask me why but I spent time reading the relentless public twitter feeds online from the ordained of PDI/SGM/SGC/ or whatever your name is? (By the way, you can run and change your name but you can’t hide). There is an overwhelming theme that Sovereign Grace is a victim and is under attack by the enemy. Then, social media is evil and don’t slander. Why is this topic so epicenter? What about the widows, the poor, and caring for special needs? Seriously though, have you lost your minds? (rhetorical).

This person wrote,

“Jared Mellinger
@JMellinger
Mar 18
Calvin on Isa. 7: “One would think our enemies are endued with such great power that they could burn and destroy the whole world. To reduce their terror, the Lord declares that what we thought was a burning, a perpetual burning, is only a little smoke that will not last long.”“

Key word here is “enemies”.

Why does your group consistently refer to having enemies and being victimized?

JM, I don’t have any enemies. The church my family has gone to for many years now does not have enemies. The pastors don’t have enemies. Their families don’t have enemies. Most organizations don’t have enemies. Sure there are misunderstandings but the civil people I know (Christian or not) care enough to resolve matters. They choose peace. No one has to agree. We’re all entitled to our own person beliefs. So why don’t you do it?

I am not your enemy Jared. Do you see that for years, the beautiful people that have filled your pews (past and present) have fulfilled the handling of their suspensions and charges against you and your group, biblically? They came to you. They came to you with others. They pleaded, some begged. But instead of reconciliation you chose to postpone, dismiss, and cover. Is responding in this way, biblical?

I’m thinking maybe this is why you have the problems (enemies) that you do?

Do you not see that you are the one’s that created these circumstances? People have nowhere else to turn but to others for help, guidance, empathy, and care. They can’t go to you because you don’t respond and take action.

Jared do you see that the same behavioral traits brought to CJ by his inner circle very much exists in you and is so very deeply rooted among your group?

Sorry Jared, but this site is more about a redeeming love for you and your group. It’s not evil. You are not a victim.

Ball’s in your court pal. It’s your life. If you want to continue the rest of your life hearing these things then I guess keep approaching things the same way.

I have much compassion for you. It scares the living heck out of me but I too can be like you. The awesome thing is that we both know who has the power to change us.

My advice to you is to seize the day lest you choose to continue your journey with “enemies”.

The physical, mental, and spiritual abuse that you and your group have caused your followers, your friends and your families does not just go away with time. To postpone the addressing of the charges brought against you may be an excellent legal defense. But this isn’t business. This is about Jesus. This about the well-being of Gods people.

I guess maybe the real questions we should all be asking is, Will there ever be peace among us? How do we work to achieve that peace together? What things can I do to bridge this peace?

I choose peace Jared. You and your group hurt me and my family. I can assure you of one thing: I’m not going anywhere.

Oh and you’re not the boss of me. I’m the boss of me. God is the boss of me. Just had to get that off my chest because ‘you people’ think you know everything and can tell people how to live and act and behave. Sick!

My temptation is to bully you back, but then that isn’t peace then. Thanks for being a great example of how decent human beings should NOT act. I am all the better of a person from watching your ongoing blunderings. You see, God is using you. God is at work.

And sorry man but you participate in a ton more social media than anyone I know! I have no idea where you manage to find all that time.

Would love to hear a response from a SGM/C (ABCDEFG) ordained person.

PS you can probably refrain from telling me that I should go directly to SGM/Jared directly instead of this site. Already have. And that doesn’t make any sense anymore.

Run4Hills, WELL SAID!!!!! I would be standing on my chair and applauding if I actually felt like getting to my feet. Here, here!! (Or hear! Hear!)

Some of the lines that hit me hardest (with the blow of a soft feather- sweet and soft, yet still noteworthy):

“Why does your group consistently refer to having enemies and being victimized?

JM, I don’t have any enemies. The church my family has gone to for many years now does not have enemies. The pastors don’t have enemies. Their families don’t have enemies. Most organizations don’t have enemies. Sure there are misunderstandings but the civil people I know (Christian or not) care enough to resolve matters. They choose peace…”

“I am not your enemy Jared. Do you see that for years, the beautiful people that have filled your pews (past and present) have fulfilled the handling of their suspensions and charges against you and your group, biblically? They came to you. They came to you with others. They pleaded, some begged. But instead of reconciliation you chose to postpone, dismiss, and cover. Is responding in this way, biblical?”

“Do you not see that you are the one’s that created these circumstances? People have nowhere else to turn but to others for help, guidance, empathy, and care.”

“Sorry Jared, but this site is more about a redeeming love for you and your group. It’s not evil. You are not a victim.”

So beautifully said, Run4Hills! I especially love, “this site is more about a redeeming love for you and your group.” Wow, beautiful.

And this, “The awesome thing is that we both know who has the power to change us.” AMEN!

“To postpone the addressing of the charges brought against you may be an excellent legal defense. But this isn’t business. This is about Jesus. This about the well-being of Gods people.” Beautiful. Jesus. The well-being of God’s people.

“God is at work.” Amen.

And then you ended with, “But I just still feel so bad for you for some reason!

“I don’t know. Maybe I once was blind but now I see?”

I feel you, Run4Hills. I can’t tell you how often I have prayed for CJ, et al with a heart of genuine concern and not a tiny bit of sorrow and pity. How I wish they could know what it’s like to know how much God loves you to the point that you don’t see people as your enemy (unless they’re legit trying to kill you) but instead be so filled with his love for them that you can’t help but reach out to them. This isn’t a generic loving “people” out there whom you don’t know and can afford to care about. I’m talking about the people you bump up against in every day life or who’ve hurt you. We’ve all known a lot of pain, but I can tell you for sure, I wouldn’t trade that, even if you threw in all the money in the world (or at least the proceeds from their conferences and book sales, etc) if it meant not being able to see God’s such deep love that I couldn’t help but respond with love to those of us around me who are messy just like me. God’s love really is that pearl worth any price and I wish that these guys could ooze love toward those they think are their “enemies” to the point that they couldn’t help but reach out with a kind hand. What a different world we’d have if those who say the name of Jesus could know Him in that way.

Thanks for your words, Run4hills. They have truly inspired me to look toward HIM and your words have filled my heart today.

I have never in my life seen JMellinger’s twitter feed. I took a quick skim back through the month of March, ie, his reaction to Rachel and the editorial by the editor in chief of Christianity Today.

He is obviously hooked on twittering yet is slamming people being on social media and labeling the affair as trolls and gossip, etc, at great length. The guy seems insanely and obsessively defensive. Creepy stuff. But all he does is expose himself to anybody trying to figure out the truth.

Gossip is sin, scripture teaches that. But discussing public statements in the public arena, or discussing sermons or blog articles in the public domain, is not gossip. That is acceptable (as long as our motives are good, such as to understand the bible or truth, or to help protect people). If SGM puts out public statements, it is not gossip to respond. Rachel is not gossiping. I can’t tell if JM is just crazy with fear of seeing SGM go down, or if he is truly a brainwashed dolt, or a sociopath. I don’t know the guy.

Jared is an SGM hardliner and the company line is that reading , “the blogs” is participating in gossip. Jared acted like a bully when SGM pastors spoke out by signing the letter that asked leaders to slow down, in the midst of the crisis.

I would question though, whether Jared has real power. He is just another puppet that fit CJ’s “pretty boy” mold. The part about being too young, yes, I agree 100%….. but again, young and impressionable enough to tow the line. He was never a real leader and never will be unless he gets out of the bubble.

At least Josh Harris admitted as much…. I think he referenced the fact that he felt like he lived life backwards and needed to go back and fill in the gaps in order to mature.

Our pastor is in his 50s, real nice grown kids, and his wife is so kind and friendly. He always talks about Jesus and the bible, and the church helps poor people and several missionaries. And nobody ever once said a word about being better or more special than any other churches. People are busy with their lives and you don’t have to let church meetings drain all your time and energy. It feels so….normal.

JOB – the victim.
He was the kind of Dad that made sacrifices on his kid’s behalf after their parties in case they had unknowingly sinned. He was a righteous man.

God lets Satan loose on Job and his family.
His kids aren’t molested, they are killed.
His worldly possessions evaporate before his eyes.
He is physically miserable and his wife turns on him.

He says he will not complain, but ultimately he does.
[ If only there was a court for me to plead my case.]
God says, I’ll give you a court hearing.
Then God throws approximately 77 – rather sarcastic – questions at Job.

I think we can only understand it in light of knowing we will spend eternity in heaven in glory, and the wicked will burn in hell forever. One day we will understand it all.

Every sex abuser will be judged for their wicked deeds, 100% morally responsible, with zero blame on Satan or childhood or their own wounds. Yet God himself allows the work of Satan and evil.

If you are trying in some way to say that Calvinists cannot hold SGM or the perps responsible for the sex abuse cases, sorry dude. You might want to read Charles Spurgeon who is really good on this subject. Two parallel train tracks that to us appear to never meet, yet in God they do, perfectly. Faith alone can rest in the paradox of two truths together. Those who do wickedness are responsible for it, even as Satan is God’s tool who does nothing apart from what God permits.

“I can guess what you are driving at. SGM has no victims, it was all God’s plan. Right?”
_______
Nope, I wouldn’t say that; I would say when it comes right down to it though, if bad things outside your control happen [ such as your parentage ] your “beef” is actually with God.

If evil happened, a sovereign GOD must have allowed it though we may not understand His purposes.

“I would say when it comes right down to it though, if bad things outside your control happen [ such as your parentage ] your “beef” is actually with God.”

So, if an adult authority figure raped or molested you as a child, shut up because your beef is with God. Don’t press for justice or to see them go to jail.

If a pastor in a church believed the crocodile tears of the pedophile playing repentance, and showed mercy to them while criticizing the wife and victims, then shut up about it because your beef is with God. Don’t blog about it, talk about it, write up detailed analytical responses to it like Rachel did, or press for an investigation.

You have no beef with any church leader, your beef is with God.

I was thinking about writing a detailed scriptural rebuttal beginning with the book of Amos, but I just don’t want to spend time beating my head against a brick wall.

Drew- let me make this simple. Active pedophiles should be shot, but since we live in the USA, they need to go to jail for a very long time. And turned into eunuchs before they are let out. And pastors who coddle them while kicking molested kids under the proverbial bus need to be defrocked. If you are really and truly on the side of letting them go unprosecuted and unexposed, because our beef is with God, then you are one very very sick and blind dude.

Drew, Thanks for presenting your thoughts. In my opinion you are certainly entitled to use this site as a means to share your voice. Unlike the current SGM ordained and unordained, I remain open to thoughts that differ from my own. I don’t agree with you but I love you no matter. Personally I think society would be a whole lot better off if you were immediately thrown in jail.

As for me, my preference is to refrain from theological debates on this site. Religious discussions are not my draw. I come here not to hate, not to judge, and not to cause divisions. I come here to protect, care for, fight for, and be a voice for those that have no voice; ie the vulnerable and naive. To me it’s my duty and there is no alternative. It’s what I think “I’m called” to do. Whether this “call” is from God, Mother Nature, or the (wo)man in the moon is irrelevant to me. My heart tells me it’s right.

There are firsthand reports of a current ordained person at CFC in Pennsylvania that has had inappropriate contact with teenage girls under the age of 18 for as long ago as twenty years.

For the well-being of current and future children, if an ordained minister had inappropriate contact with you in the past then please consider coming forward by posting your story. You will remain anonymous and you don’t have to provide your name.

I’m just wondering, could it just be that the reason why these guys admit to nothing is because they are aware of far worse?

There are many other firsthand stories on a number of fronts that haven’t been exposed yet but they aren’t my stories to tell.

So back to Drew. I do trust God but I also think I will be judged and one day my actions will be accounted for. If you were me, what would you do?

Drew, What knowledge do you need to make a judgment? I have the ordained persons name. I have the names of some of the girls. I have the dates and places these events occurred. Should I post that here? Would that help you? Please tell me what information you need to make a judgment. I need your help working through this one.

Just for absolute clarity, what does this mean? “There are firsthand reports of a current ordained person at CFC in Pennsylvania that has had inappropriate contact with teenage girls under the age of 18 for as long ago as twenty years.”

Do you mean he was 19 with a 16 year old girlfriend, and then 21 with a 17 year old girlfriend, in a somewhat common these days fornication scenario….but then he would say God got hold of him and he repented and has been serving God ever since?

Or do you mean as an ordained minister, while claiming to be a Christian living for the Lord, he was actively taking sexual advantage of girls? Was he on staff?

I would see a difference in those two scenarios- one would hope that in the first case he apologized later for his immorality, but true repentance and true salvation can come to the lost.

I don’t know that you can say more unless the girls themselves asked you to. They may want to stay private and you have to respect that, even if you think they should come forward.

2. The inappropriately contacted, now adult, told me directly and as adults that they were 16 and younger when the events took place

4. The ordained person would have been 15-20+ yrs older than the 16 yr old.

5. Yes, on staff

6. Thanks for helping me with this. I don’t want anyone to get hurt so I’m grateful for your help. Im think I should respect their silence. For now I guess I’ll just pray they decide to come forward on their own

7. There’s absolutely no reason why you should not believe me! I’ve got better things to do with my time then to spend time writing up long posts to create false cases against potentially innocent people! That is evil and one day God will judge all my sins.

Run- if you know, really know, and are certain that the snake never went back and apologized and got excellent counseling help, then if I was you I wouldn’t hesitate to put the staffer name out. That’s me. If it was protecting future girls (and he would be petrified to do it again once his name was out) it would be a good thing. Plus right now it places every other staffer in the “potentially guilty” category, so by even putting out two initials you are least exonerate the rest of them.

I’ve been in situations where I heard something sordid and they didn’t want to say who, and my response was always that now a lot of folks are under suspicion to me. Better to name names once you let out this much.

I could be 100% wrong. I would not want to see Kris and Guy opened up to a lawsuit. So I guess I would write to them privately first. Maybe others here have opinions also.

When I say I believe you, I guess what I was trying to say is that I believe the girls who told you. Generally victims are afraid to tell because they think nobody will believe them. By the grace of God I was never raped or molested as a child, but I know many who were, and they are are afraid of not being believed. Good chance Mr. CF Staffer will deny it. Sorry to not be more clear.

Great prayer burden today about all this….The CT editorial, Rachel, then this. Thinking about Boz (good guy), Dever and enabler crew (bad guys) and the confusion out there. We really do need an investigation. I felt a heavy burden to pray. Still do.

As a former member of CFC, my heart aches reading your report. I can’t tell you how much I love many of the people who used to, and still go to CFC. And twenty years ago, i knew a lot of the 16 year olds there, quite well. To think that one of them was “pursued” by someone a lot older than them makes my stomach turn. I spent many years serving at camp, etc. To know that one of God’s precious creatures was put in that position makes me queasy.

I don’t want to get into detail here, though I have in the past if you want to do the footwork of finding it. But I have somewhat extensive experience in many sides of… I want to be careful how to phrase this.. similar issues as to what you are talking about. If you’d like to contact me privately, you can reach me at nolongeralone1@gmail.com. I promise, you don’t have to reveal your identity to me (though if you were there twenty years ago, we may know each other.) And you don’t have to reveal anyone’s information. I can give you feedback, whether it be general or specific, if you’d like. Like I said, unfortunately, I have a lot of experience walking through similar situations.

If you’re not sure you can trust that I am me or that anything you share with me is safe, I believe 5 Years may be able to vouch that that email address is me and anything else you may need to know. I recognize that to many of us, anonymity is important and I suspect you want to protect your friend’s identity, while also helping him or her.

In all this, I really see God in the love He’s put in your heart for those who are hurting. Be encouraged, you’re walking toward truth, in love.

Yes indeed, I am happy to vouch for that email above as belonging to stunned. Her experience is out there somewhere, and is a gripping story. Suffice it to say that she is the perfect person to talk about how to show compassion on the soul of a sex predator while ensuring that justice, and protecting others, happens.

Gonna be quite the staff meeting at CovFel this week. You know they read here. You know somebody has already informed them that this blog is alleging one of the staffers went after underage girls young enough to be his daughters. You know that on some gut level even if they want to dismiss “Run” they can’t. Maybe they know, it is very likely they do, but it has been covered up, so now they will be sweating that names will come out. Time for JM to issue more warnings about the evil blogs. Time to talk about Satan attacking. Maybe we will see somebody feel led by the spirit to resign and go back to secular work? Never a dull moment with this gang.

Earth to SGM- if you ALWAYS tell the truth, you will never have to worry about what you said before, or about the truth coming out. It really is a preferable way to live. Really. Harder in the short run maybe, but in the long run it is a joyful rest to tell the truth.

As has been the case with SGM…. their sins will find them out. I do not mean any disrespect to any of the commenters or “survivors”. But….Posting ambiguous accusations that make suspects out of the entire leadership team at CFC is an unnecessary cheap shot and beneath this blog. Restraint is in order. May God give us all wisdom and discernment, and strength to those hurting.

I don’t think this is the right venue for publishing serious new allegations about a specific person. If the inappropriate behavior has already been made public in some way, or if there’s some documentation out there, that’s different.

But Marlton, please, labeling “Run”‘s posts as an “unnecessary cheap shot” is ridiculous. You can clearly sense her worries and concerns that somebody is still in position to take advantage of the “vulnerable and naive”. Maybe she could have taken them to Detwiler or WW or kept silent, but questioning her motives is beneath anyone.

“One thing I don’t understand is why so many people believe these leaders are completely truthful and trustworthy. They had obvious motivation for smoothing things over and maintaining as much of the status quo as they could.”

Kris, grateful for these words…
“But I’m not ready quite yet to let go of this specific space, of what happened here, either. I remain convinced that a lot of the stuff here needs to remain available, particularly things like transcripts of key sermons that formed the foundation for many of SGM’s unofficial yet organization-wide cultural practices. If you read here long enough, with an even slightly open mind, I think you’ll come away with a sense of the scope and breadth of SGM’s/SGC’s issues and why the purported changes of the past few years may not be enough to address things.”

Back to Kris’ original question about why SGM appears to side with perpetrators….I have been mulling this since Kris posted it. I think it is a fairly multi-faceted answer.

1. The first facet is that friendships and a sense of personal loyalty can make us driven to refuse to hear truth about people we admire or in some cases, people who picked to lead. I watched, “The Post”, with Meryl Streep and Tom Hanks, last week, and it featured this very concept. There is also the subtle notion that people who have something to hide may build friendships with people to establish that loyalty as a part of the cover for their wrongdoing. This is likely especially true with pedophiles.

2. Rachel Denhollander shared an excellent story on institutional protectionalism created a culture where victims where attempts to discredit victims and protect MSU created a culture that allowed Nasser to get away with his abuse, unchecked. I have read comments ts from people who knew Nasser, and the loyalty mentioned in the first point came into play, too. MSU is still trying to protect itself by claiming Denhollander made demands for money. SGM has made no attempt to hide the fact that preserving tge reputation if an elder and the church (or movement) has been the top priority since the scandals were made public in 2011. Friends of CJ chastened men who had the audacity to choose to not, “protect an elder” and people like Mellinger actually called pastors out, actually bullied them, when signed their name to a letter merely asking SGM to slow down the handling of the scandals. CJ and his friends were furious with the family meetings that CLC chose to have, where peoples’ thoughts and questions were aired in public because they did not feel as though CLC was doing it’s part to, “protect am elder.” That was at the heart of the move to Louisville.

3. SGM’s flawed theology created a culture where in all situations the primary responsibility was to show people their perceived sin. Genuine grief was mistaken for bitterness, as was failure to do what the pastors’ institutional protectionalism and blind loyalty told them they must do. Top that off with SGM’s mocking of the very idea that people could legitimately be victims in their anti-psychology stance. This was further compounded with SGM’s lack of appropriate teaching on , “the one another’s.” Neither in example or in teaching was there adequate emphasis on bearing peoples’ burdens, grieving with those who grieved, or any the instruction to forbear with one another. No compassion and no love. Compassion has a fairly tight criteria set and in order to qualify, you had to play by their rules. This has played out very overtly in the Pittsburgh church split where there has been condemnation heaped on a particular individual has struggled bearing the burden she was dealt. It is akin to the old adage of kicking a dog while it is down. In the SGM flawed model, pastors were not equipped not expected to care for people and bear their burdens, that was delegated to CG leaders who were, “an extension of pastoral care.” In almost 20 years of SGM, I saw 2 guys who were adequately able to care for people to that level and in both cases the men had pastoral gifting and interestingly enough they did not meet SGM’s standards for being a pastor. In both cases SGM was completely wrong. The one pastor I watched break the SGM mold when it came to care was Mark Altrogge. Also contributing to the bad theology category seems to be a mindset that somehow appropriate notifications and protections are incompatible with the Biblical mandate for forgiveness.

4. I think a complete ignorance of how sexual predators operate is also a fairly large contributor. Until the scandals broke, I really did not know much, but I wanted to better understand, so I took some time to read. I would not be shocked if most SGM leaders and pastors still have not taken the steps to learn. Until you do some reading, it seems very conspiratorial to believe that they operate the way they do.

5. Generational differences are also at play, here. As a Gen Xer, I remember it being a big deal to my group of friends when a friend came forward and shared with us she was being abused by a family member. That was the only person I knew personally who had ever came forward as a victim of abuse. The girls’ parent were horrified and basically excommunicated him from the family but I doubt charges were filed. It was not so common for people to file police reports unless it egregious or discovered by child services or the school. This is not an excuse for SGM, but it is a reality in society. The church should have led the way in handling it right. That would have been a true gospel-centered response.

To add to your item 2 – I recently thought about SGM when reading an article about an Oklahoma teacher who was talking about low pay for teachers there. He is also a farmer. And a pastor. And that is what struck me – imagine that, running a church and holding down other jobs, as well.

I know it seemed like a good idea at the time, so I am not criticizing anyone for setting SGM / SGC up so that the leaders were financially supported by those jobs. It seemed good to free them from the cares and time needed for an outside full-time job, so that they could serve the people who came to the church. But in retrospect, it’s hard not to draw a correlation between the fact that their income depended on the church being financially successful – and some of the decisions they made. Supporting the predators could seem genuinely compassionate/promoting repentence and forgiveness; or it could just be circling the wagons to keep a scandal from scaring people (and their tithes) away. Insisting that an abused wife (or wife trying to protect her kids) stay with a violent or predatory husband could be viewed as an (ignorance-based but genuine) attempt to see repentance and reconciliation, or it could be an attempt to avoid supporting a mother and children whose bread-winning husband and father was going to jail (all the while the church was promoting that women should stay home with kids and let their husbands be the sole source of income).

I think the whole salaried pastor idea presents a conundrum. Or maybe not – maybe the concept of what the leaders should be doing is all wrong, and pastors should be able to play their role while holding down a full-time job elsewhere. If they can’t do both, maybe that is a sign that the congregation needs to step up more.

Anyway, I think the financial part played a major – though maybe not exclusive – role in any and all of the SGM cases I know about.

@Presbyterian – that is a whole post, in and of itself and 100% classic SGM. I had a very stereotypical interaction with the pastor in question just a few weeks back where myself and others presented firsthand testimony about the AoR report not reflecting what Ted and Ed had told us, directly. I asked the pastor, in all sincerity, how he could tolerate the intentional deception, and he pulled the typical SGM, turn the tables on you, and turned it into an attack on me. This particular pastor came from Piper’s world.

It’s really interesting how simliar the whole pattern is to what I know occurred more than 20 years ago in a different location. Which makes me wonder, is this process taught somewhere?

Some of the terms are different (“share your opinion” used to be “slander”), but the techniques are exactly the same. And they are not necessarily intuitive techniques…that’s why when people experience it, it is so surprising;just and when other people hear about it, they don’t believe it. The strangeness of the behavior, combined with the consistency over time and geography, really makes you think there must be a handbook or a memo somewhere….

This tweet needs to be published and disseminated to a wide audience. Jenna Grover is a hero of mine. I know her personally from being on Mark Prater’s church planting to the wealthy Upper St. Clair Township of W. Pa. She has a high degree of integrity and has grown in the Lord not to fear SGC. I know that SGC churches keep records of people that includes their counseling sessions, finances, family issues, kid’s behavior, etc. That practice makes it’s members vulnerable to them in case their leadership is challenged. I was totally opposed to instituting this practice at our church plant but was overruled by MP because it was standard practice at SGM. I was left to wonder what kind of records he had on me because I was an accountability of his for several years.

MP was previously opposed to “full time ministry” but he changed his position when called upon to lead the church plant. I’d love to see his salary, benefits, extra resources, etc today. Being at the top of a well compensated hierarchy pays top dividends. He is a total company man who seeks promotion so why not stay in the pharmaceutical industry instead of fleecing the flock?

When I read the Twitter post above and shuddered in response! This describes the Shepherding Movement that years ago controlled and ruined countless people’s spititual lives, finances and marriages. Those pastors live the lives of the rich and famous. God in his infinite wisdom brought that movement down. The enemy is trying a new route to get this insidious doctrine reestablished in church communities. I will not ever put the covering of a man, men or a Church between me and the Lord Jesus Christ. I have never forsaken the gathering of believers but innately know tha ALL pastors and leaders are just men who have issues, passions, ambitions, etc. SGC puts these men on a pedistle and has become a pastor centric cult that apparently protects it’s eldership event to the point of conspiracy, untruths and throwing victims and their families under the bus.

Members of SGC churches everywhere, their is spiritual life, sound doctrine, true CHRISTIAN fellowship, biblical worship, etc. beyond your denomination. Talk to members of the churches that have truly left your fold. They are set free from pastoral control and are prospering in the Lord outside the umbrella covering of SGC.

Those series of Twitter posts are sad to read but really not surprising it is a similar story you hear happen in a number of SGM Churches.

If nothing else local leaders of SGM Churches (and I am sure especially for the SGM Churches that are remaining) thrive on information control. They want to control what local members hear. Thus this local leader did all he could to do control what was said and when that didn’t work did all he could to to discredit Sarah. Especially before this and similar blogs SGM Leaders were use to people leaving quietly. I am glad Sarah chose not to leave so quietly.

Here we go again…………….SGM is in full damage control mode. The Vanhollander revelation has SGM rattled and they are doing everythig they can to avert another disaster. Apparently, they are contacting various former members to determine what wrongs were done and to (privaely) ask forgiveness. Whether or not this is genuine or just an attempt to preempt further blowback remains to be seen. In any event, the leadership is clearly frightened about the national media exposure and unsure as to how to counteract it. When you are used to telling people how to think and act it’s difficult to deal with those that dont’ comply with your directives.

There’s a reason why SGM’s problems won’t go away………..the foundation of this movement is corrupt and until a new foundation is laid, things won’t change.

They manipulate. This is how they operate. They believe this is right by God. They justify ‘governing by manipulation’ by saying they are protecting. You and I know this is ‘enslaving’ instead of ‘saving’. And this is why many of our hearts once grieved for them. We know they are reaping what they sew and unfortunately for them the worst has yet to come.

I really think some of them are just blind. I really think some have just justified their actions so much that they truly believe they are doing the right things. Their manipulative governance will continue because they have deemed their actions justified in their minds. CHURCHGOER BEWARE

And I think one or a couple at the top knows exactly what he is doing but can’t bare the embarrassment!

These men gave up their lives for SGM/PDI/SGC/men/etc. They abandoned their jobs (most, if not all, had no career), exhausted all their time away from their families saying it was for God everyday, spent all of their money (no retirement savings, no social security benefits), and instructed their wives and kids to submit to the instruction of their SGM church pastor OR ELSE be disenfranchised from the Order.

SGM is the only system they now know. SGM is their belief. SGM is their baby. SGM is their faith. SGM is their financial security. SGM is their power. SGM is their peace. SGM is their life.

In my opinion, if they are to say, “we were wrong”, then they face jail, poverty, and mortification. If they say, “we were wrong”, then they fear looking foolish, fear being humiliated in front of their families, fear that their wives will no longer have confidence in them, fear their children and grandchildren won’t respect them. They fear their kids will have to support them monetarily, maybe even house them. Their bequest; a laughing-stock.

They have little children to feed. I don’t think they will be able to find jobs at their current income levels. They have little credentials. Their controlling tactics won’t work in the real world. They’ll be spit out if they do so much as attempt these tactics in the real world. Their resumes for employment might say:

– For 25 years I worked for SGM where I held a high chair but it was abolished due to the largest institutional abuse scandal in history
– I haven’t a college degree
– I can preach at people and tell them what to do
– I don’t do Halloween, Santa Claus, or happy hour because that’s evil
– I’m a master manipulator
– I wrote a book about hitting your infant children with the rod of discipline
– If any children were sexually abused, I wasn’t there and I didn’t see anything
– I practice humility
– I’m cross-centered
– I’m well rounded. I like football and BK music
– I do much better than I deserve
(As well as many more timeless classics)

Seriously though, who would hire these guys?

I really do think the older guys are just trying to extract as much personal compensation out of this company as they can knowing the end is near. And I also really think they believe that if they could just somehow turn that corner, then they could make a name for themselves, turn it all around, and be famous for being able to tell a story of how they lived and experienced God through long adversity. Only it will never come true. It can’t without genuine repentance. They mistreated families for years.

I don’t think MP has written a book yet. Here’s a title: “I let you all down and I’m sorry”. I might actually buy that one but only if all proceeds go to cult protection agencies around the world. (is there such a thing?)

Checkmate said, “SGM is the only system they now know. SGM is their belief. SGM is their baby. SGM is their faith. SGM is their financial security. SGM is their power. SGM is their peace. SGM is their life.”

For some

SGM is their god.

:( I’m so sad for many of the people who are suffering through this all. My heart goes out to some of those you’ve described above. I know I was 100% earnest during my years there, and I suspect many who are still there are just as earnest, though I know not all. What a prison some are in. :(

Sovereign Grace needs to follow the old adage “when you find yourself in a hole……..stop digging”

Quizzler has heard from several saints regarding attempts by SGC leadership to reach out to former members in an attempt to preempt additional derogatory comments, and neutralize support for Ms Denhollander.

Pray for these misguided men…..many of them know not what they do. Others know full well what they are doing and feel it’s their duty to keep the sheep in line by any means they choose. They all need to read and heed Jeremiah 23:1-4. This is also the Scripture that “Noel” gave the the abusive pastors down in Chesapeake many years ago.

Thanks, TrueBlue, those were very generous words. But, I participated and contributed to their game, and that I deeply regret. I thank God that he removed the scales from my eyes.

Quizzler, Checkmate, and Steve240, agreed!

The longer they avoid dealing with this, the larger the scale of the coverage, pretty much every time. Instead of responding in the fear of the Lord, they resist. I cant imagine what the next round of coverage will look like.

Something seems to be brewing at Covenant Life Church, the former headquarters of Sovereign Grace Ministries. There is an elders retreat this weekend that includes several “Apostolic Leaders” from New Frontiers, the group of churches founded by Terry Virgo. David Devenish, Virgo’s successor, spoke at CLC last Sunday.https://newfrontierstogether.org/apostolic-leaders/

Jenn, I also grieve over my support of SGM/SGC I the past. I was the right hand man of MP in the Pittsburgh church plant and was guilty of spiritual abuse towards some Godly men i.e. disciplining someone who was sincere but could not sell his house back in Philly., keeping our worship leader in “line”. My eyes were opened when I was told that leadership was protecting Tomczak when he was pushed out of SGM. I was told that it was not the business of the members. I responded that the rumors that what would result from this action will be far worse than the actual problem. Again I was told to trust the leadership. Total BS! As I wrote before, I was totally against keeping files on members because this information could be abused. Again, trust the leadership. MP also refused to let the members know that files were being kept on them because this might cause them to not be open and transparent during counseling sessions. Duh!

I have no idea who checkmate is but his recent post is on target. High end hotels, gourmet restaurants, travel everywhere, honorariums, celebrity status, adulation, etc. are hard to give up or put at risk. That’s beyond the unknown salaries, benefits, expense accounts, etc. that Checkmate writes about. Also their future is at risk unless you’re in a position to have golden parachutes available. Some of the top leaders or leader don’t even have a degree.

>”Something seems to be brewing at Covenant Life Church,”
————————————————–

Perhaps the US Immigration has revoked P.J. Smyth’s visa. After all, I doubt he was truthful in his interview or on his application, and we don’t need foreign pastors in the US who cover up sexual abuse and culpable homicide. The last Sunday Smyth preached at CLC was March 4th.

“PJ has been through a thorough examination process, he clearly meets the qualifications for eldership and he wholeheartedly embraces the responsibility to shepherd, oversee, lead, and care for this local church in partnership with all the elders.”

I thought CLC was not – yet – an official Advance church, but there were indications that it might become one soon (CLC hosted a conference of Advance leaders last year, presumably for the leaders to check out CLC; and then recently there was some kind of weird call to reaffirm membership). Maybe there is going to be an official announcement soon…or not, I don’t know, I am just speculating.

Somewhere – very true, but…CLC leaders aren’t the only ones with a say in this.

I read Brent’s Post. Advance and/or New Frontiers may be very aware of and concerned about the negative publicity that PJ could bring to CLC, which would be highlighted because of CLC’s history and association with SGC/SGM. It’s a big financial investment on their part, and if the plan to bring CLC into the fold is actually on hold, that means they are definitely reconsidering. Rachael Denhollander’s focus on SGM/SGC is going to bring national focus back to CLC, and PJ will be in the spotlight in exactly the wrong kind of context.

And if they remove PJ, who would replace him? They do need a preacher who would draw a big crowd – they need a lot of money to operate that building. And throughout all of this SGM/CLC business, we have seen what appears to be an emphasis on protecting finances – why would Advance and New Frontiers be any different? I have no doubt they are thinking about what they might lose if they go forward…

Steve- I think leaders in many places are trying to wait things out, hoping that in a couple years it will all blow over. CLC, T4G, TGC….if they can just stay afloat for a while, then all these problems are “in the past” and bitter folks dredge them up instead of “moving forward with God.” You see it a lot in life- people don’t want to apologize or admit to anything, so they keep silent and hope that they can wait it out, and make the dissidents look like nags with an ax to grind.

If God has decided to deal with it, then God won’t be thwarted. If he is going to let them go their way and harden their hearts, then so be it. They will lose the sweet presence of the Lord and all the crowds and money won’t take away the emptiness inside. Control fills the place where love is supposed to be.

“There was no doubt Pat felt P.J. was the answer to all their problems and the guarantee of future success. He would pack out the church building and restore its fortunes. This would result in the ability to buy the 17,000 square foot space owned by Sovereign Grace Ministries on the bottom floor. ”

This also sounds like CLC Leadership is more in the business of keeping CLC doors open.

This has been said before, but if you look at what they all do through the lens of Christianity, church, and pastoral care for people, you can get upset and cynical. If you look at it through the lens of a profit making business, it all makes complete sense.

That is a good point. They run it like a profit business but have so far been successful in making a lot of the members think it was all about Christ.

A large building like CLC has especially not paid for can be expensive to keep up. Thus unless CLC wants to explore selling their building to get a smaller one they have to do what it takes to attract people and the dollar$ they bring.

I hope that the folks forced out of membership at minimum, let the people in their churches know what happened, like Jeff & Sarah Owens did. I hope their story does not get lost in the shuffle. It is very much in line with what we have seen from SGM, before. SGM wants more than anything, for those who have seen the abuse at the hands of leaders to be silenced. This is why they assault the character of those who speak out.

Jenn said, “I hope that the folks forced out of membership at minimum, let the people in their churches know what happened…”

Too many haven’t Jenn! I know too many ex-pastors at SGM that have so many stories to tell but they haven’t spoken publically. I just can’t figure it out but can only speculate they either signed an agreement to stay silent with pay, they were blackmailed (threatened), or a mixture of all the above. Some if not all were good people so it’s just so suspicious nearly none of them have come forward publically with their stories.

And yes, I agree. If you were forced out of your membership, please help others by coming forward with your stories.

To the Owen’s family. Thank you. And you are nowhere close to a single outlier. This is so custom SGM behavior. Too many stories just like yours!!!!!!

Members who have not experienced the leadership nonsense firsthand turn their backs on people who leave, and refuse to listen to the stories, that’s why a lot of the stories don’t get out. There is no one willing to listen.

Checkmate, you are so right! I know one pastor who has not spoken out, publicly, but is honest with people when the topic arises. I also think some dont want to appear to be going. “scorched earth” or they are still battling the indoctrination.

Out there, yes, it seen as, “not leaving well”, disloyal, or just sinfully not submitting to their leaders.

Checkmate, you are so right! I know one pastor who has not spoken out, publicly, but is honest with people when the topic arises. I also think some dont want to appear to be going. “scorched earth” or they are still battling the indoctrination.

I imagine a lot of it is the “indoctrination” that these former SGM Pastors were taught and then taught members about how wrong it was to “gossip” or “slander” especially concerning leaders. I have seen this in regular members who fear sharing their experience thinking to do so would be sinful etc. SGM’s teaching on what was “gossip” or “slander” was quite an indoctrination.

I think it is 100% the papers they signed and fear of a lawsuit. I could be wrong.

I think it is wonderful this is happening. Up until now, it’s been about not calling the cops for the public who don’t know much. We had one fine local pastor tell us nobody used to call the cops, and SGM are good guys; so what if they didn’t call the cops and wanted to deal with it as pastors. He believed our fuller explanation, but the point is, the spin out there is making it about pastor confidentiality. A missionary friend who never reads the blogs told us that the church has been arguing since the middle ages about when to call the civil magistrate and the SGM thing is a non issue.

This quote from the BD link stands out:

“Kyle J. Howard ‏ @KyleJamesHoward
So far, I have had saints from a total of 5 diff SGC churches, completely diff states, no apparent knowledge of one another, reach out to me for counsel. Every case is exactly the same. They encouraged leadership to consider independent investigation, forced out of membership.
10:25 AM – 21 Mar 2018”

Now we are finally getting to the root. The root is not whether or not pedophiles and sex abusers are dealt with in the church and by the church, vs calling the police. The real root is how abusively authoritarian SGM is, and what their concept of elders ruling and people submitting looks like.

By the way, John Piper’s right hand man was not an acceptable mediator for the (now former) church members and their great leaders. Ha. Time to wake up Desiring God ministries, eh?

I think it is 100% the papers they signed and fear of a lawsuit. I could be wrong.

Well a lot of the pastors I am sure have families and will have a hard time finding a job that pays a comparable salary so many need the severance dollars and thus are forced to sign some type of non disclosure agreement that comes with these severance dollars. Sadly it is understandable.

I am sure when the Mahaney Son In Laws chose to leave CLC they weren’t forced to sign any type of disclosure agreement but were given some type of severance pay but then again these son in laws are SGM Royalty where most other pastors leaving aren’t.

Rachel Denhollander was just named to Time Magazine’s 100 most influential people IN THE WORLD!

The Olympic Doctor horrors are just the beginning of how the Lord is going to use this lady to stand up to those with no voice. SGM is going to be taken to the woodshed for their refusal to have an independent investigation on their protection of pedophiles and evil doers in the church.

What grace this lady exhibits. Of the honor Rachel says “Humbled and grateful to be on the TIMES list of 100 Most Influential People in the World. May our voices ever be raised in defense of all that is beautiful, right, and true. ”

I’m encouraging those here on SGM Survivors to not give up hope. God is going to use Rachel to expose SGM for what they are! Truth will be exposed. Truth will win the day!

It occurred to me this AM that it is unlikely that Mark Prater, current SGM president, has spoken to many, if any, victims or victims’ families. Yet, he speaks with unwavering certainty and attacks Rachel Denollander’s calls for an investigation and her possession of the facts when Denhollander has spent significant amounts of time speaking with SGM victims, their families, and former SGM pastors. Who seems more credible?

Does anyone have any reason to believe Mark has spoken with any victims or their families, beyond the family that Brent references in his hush fund post? For that matter, beyond the one instance where CJ met with a family from Fairfax, have any SGM leaders, beyond their local pastors, met with any of the victims? Do they feel that a report from AoR is a substitute for meeting with the families?

You make a good point. I would be quite surprised if Mark Prater or any of the past SGM Presidents have spoken to any of the victims or families. If this is really the case it sure is something how SGM always claims there are two sides to a situation and one should hear both sides. It is even worse how SGM has tried to discredit Rachel Dehollander when they haven’t done their own research.

Lets think what some possible reasons are for Prater not having done that. One might be that SGM has so driven their stake in the ground that Prater doesn’t want to even explore that there might be some truth here. It Prater did talk with some of the victims and it enraged the group’s pope (C.J. Mahaney) then chances are Prater’s job could be in jeopardy. Of course there is the always don’t ask the question or explore for something when you might not like what you will find.

I used to be in a “deliverance ministry” group with cult-like tendencies, and the techniques described in this article are very similar to what I experienced. In my group, “the gospel” was defined as an endless quest to prophetically discern sinful attitudes in myself and my ancestors in order to recite incantations that would drive out the demons that had been given a place in my heart due to my sin. What eventually became evident, however, is that the only people who could truly discern my sin were the leaders of the group and those who supported the leaders without question. The leaders claimed they had achieved “freedom”, a state of being in which they were free of demonic influence and ordained by God to bring others into “freedom”. Readers of this comment may be surprised to learn that all of this was taught under the guise of essential Christian doctrine.

In this group we would regularly meet in small groups where we would practice prophetically discerning others’ sin and calling that sin to attention. Recipients were given the choice to disagree with another member’s assessment but were never given the choice to disagree with the leaders’ assessment. If members questioned the leaders’ opinions those members were labeled “divisive” and “defiant”. We were never able to bring sin to the attention of the leaders. There came a time when the leaders’ behavior was so erratic, paranoid, and delusional, I felt like I had not choice but to confront them. After that, I was out of the group and on my way to a years-long process of recovery that still continues.

At the heart of systems like this is control and deception. Deeply broken and delusional people, who find their worth through the subjugation of others, gravitate to systems like this in order to assert dominance over others with an ultimate goal to completely destroy their victims’ identity and agency. What Biblical entity seems to share these ideals? Hint: it’s not Jesus.

If you’d like to read more about systems of thought reform, I’d highly recommend the work of Robert J. Lifton. He was an Air Force psychologist who studied thought reform in the Chinese Revolution. He seems to have identified in practical examples the elements essential to deceiving and subjugating people, as individuals and groups. His eight criteria of thought reform find expressions in almost every aberrant group I’ve studied.

Finally, I would like to encourage everyone who has had been negatively affected by SGM. I spend almost my entire life in aberrant and cult-like groups until 4 years ago (I’m 36). The road to recovery is long, perhaps a life-time, but through the study of God’s word, obedience, and fellowship, I’ve seen healing in my own life and in the life of my family. Do the hard work to discover the gospel in the Bible and through faithful teachers, do the hard work to learn what circumstances or beliefs you have had that helped contribute to your involvement in this group, and do the hard work to keep the faith and not give up. The hard work is worth it!

The “Independent” Investigation of Sexual Abuse at Covenant Life Church Didn’t Include Talking to the Victims of Abuse – Incredulously, Executive Pastor Mark Mitchell Says Exclusion Was Due to “Limited Finances”
Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 1:50PM

“An important decision we’re recently made.” “It is understandable that our anticipation of this announcement could distract us from engaging with God.” “So let’s trust the Lord, ask for needed grace.”

Over the past week, the elders have spent a number of hours together in much discussion and prayer over some important topics that concern our church. These discussions began several months ago and culminated this past Thursday.

As a result, the elders would like to have a brief members meeting tomorrow, immediately after our Sunday meeting, to share an important decision we’ve recently made. In order to best accommodate as many as possible, the Twelve meeting is canceled.

As always, we will gather tomorrow to sing to the Lord and hear from his Word. It’s understandable that our anticipation of this announcement could distract us from engaging with God. So here is my encouragement. Jesus promises us that “where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them” (Matthew 18:20). And in Revelation we’re told that Jesus holds us in his hand (Revelation 1:20). When we are together, Jesus is in our midst. He is present by his Spirit to bless us, strengthen us, and encourage us. So let’s trust the Lord, ask for needed grace, and come tomorrow prepared to encounter his presence through Word and song.

“The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. ‘The Lord is my portion,’ says my soul, ‘therefore I will hope in him’ (Lamentations 3:22–24).”

That would be the first Christ-seeking action they’ve done in quite some time. If so, a big Amen to them and a prayer to our Lord to bless them in seeking their next leader. Hopefully someone that isn’t a liar, an egomaniac or a psychopath. Let’s try something different and find a Spirit-led man whose primary interest is pleasing the Lord and following His Word! I spent two years at CLC in the 80s. I want the Lords best for them.

Actually I think finances might be a big reason for a lot of their decisions. Maybe the only reason.

AoR cost over $400,000.00 That’s a lot of money. With CJ and crew gone and no new pastor yet, maybe Lars was the cheapest they could get who would make the problem go away. (Except it didn’t go away.)

I would think there is no way CLC wants to dish out a couple hundred thousand or more on GRACE or anybody else. Rachel addressed SGM, so they probably want to see if SGM would pay for it instead of CLC. Which SGM won’t.

Keep in mind- this is a business. What is the best decision financially. How many members will stay or go, what will the tithes and offerings look like. If it won’t matter financially, why spend the money.

“PJ has been through a thorough examination process, he clearly meets the qualifications for eldership and he wholeheartedly embraces the responsibility to shepherd, oversee, lead, and care for this local church in partnership with all the elders.”

-Mark Mitchell, Leader of the blind guides at CLC.

Mark Mitchell and all the other elders who participated in the “thorough examination process” also need to go. It was, after all, a “partnership with all the elders.”

C.J. gives sermon to send message to all of SGM. Essentially if you are in this group of churches, and if you disagree or raise concerns to your elders, they will inform you that you are being divisive against an apostle and his church. He is using Titus 3:9-11 to inform everyone that after the elders have “rebuked” you twice, then there is a biblical ground for them to “have nothing to do with them.”https://t.co/LNv48VblFK?amp=1

1. It’s been a while since I listened to CJ. I am not sure if my eyes are now more open or if his preaching has become even more pastor-centric. There is enough in the message for a weak-minded SGM pastor to abuse in that message if Mark or someone else drops the codified language about dealing with divisive people but nothing that will stand out as inappropriate. It is definitely classic SGM. People from the outside would see nothing wrong. Those within, who know the secret handshakes, understand exactly what is implied. Do I believe that this was likely a signal to SGM pastors as well as a message to members: no questioning allowed. For, they are a “same things church.”

2. I really don’t miss this type of heavy-handed, abusive leadership preaching that makes church all about the pastors.

3. In fairness, it appears that CJ and Jeff are preaching through Titus and have been doing so since Jan 7. In all likelihood, this series was planned out many months, before the abuse scandal was raised in public by Rachel Denhollander.

4. Dave Harvey was famous for advising pastors to “show them the door” when people were too much trouble for a pastor, and it had broad application. Did he get it from CJ? Does anyone remember hearing that phrase at CLC or any other non-Philadelphia related church?

One additional thought: that message was intended to intimidate members and keep pastors in line. To neo-Calvinists it will seem fine. Pastor-centric theology seems to be the soup de jour, unfortunately.

Weird non-meeting. I do find it interesting that before Yesterday, in the previous 4 weeks, not only did PJ no preach, but 3 of the weeks were not even CLC pastors, they were different pastors from New Frontiers, from what I can tell: Steve Van Rhyn (pastor of jubille church in South Africa, part of advanced and new frontiers), David Devenish (leader of Ne Frontiers Apostolic team) and Lex Lozides (From Jubillee Church in South Africa). Not only is it strange to not have the senior pastor preach in two months, it is almost stranger to have guest preachers 3 out of 4 weeks. I do think looking at who has been preaching, that it is more likely the church joins advanced or new frontiers than they remove PJ.

It has been now like 2 months since PJ preached. All that fanfare and money to recruit PJ and he goes this long without preaching which I would think is one of his main jobs. Does anyone know if PJ was even around these past 2 months on Sundays or out travelling?

Look, I have absolutely no skin in the game regarding CLC. I know many people considered it the mother ship, but I was barely aware of its existence, nor its considerable influence on my church during my 15 years there. I wish them well. And I’ve had pretty much zero opinion regarding this PJ guy, mostly because I had my own stuff to think about and care about so he wasn’t on my radar. But I have to say at thes point, something is starting to seem fishy, and I hope my brothers and sisters in CLC are starting to pop their heads above the crowd, look around and see whatever it is that may be happening there, beyond what the man behind the curtain wants them to think. (Not referring to this PJ guy as the man behind the curtain, I’m just saying it does seem like someone or some group there is trying to control things and not be as apparent as a healthy church may be.) Good luck to everyone!

This was what Brent indicated that Pat Ennis said in one of Brent’s posts

“There was no doubt Pat felt P.J. was the answer to all their problems and the guarantee of future success. He would pack out the church building and restore its fortunes. This would result in the ability to buy the 17,000 square foot space owned by Sovereign Grace Ministries on the bottom floor.”

Maybe this is what CLC gets when having this type of motive. Was their motivation to exalt Jesus or was it more to rebuild their church? It is appears that is was more the latter.

It looks like so far CLC has reaped the fruit of this type of motivation. Yes they are burdened by having a large building that can be a significant cost to operate and maintain that would drive the need for having more members and their accompanying contributions. There are alternatives to trying drive attendance due to the need for additional money.

I did listen to C.J. Mahaney’s recent message on “divisiveness.” I really didn’t enjoy having to listen and is interesting that all his joking/humor was absent that I use to hear but “divisiveness” is a serious issue.

C.J. Mahaney did say that this passage in Titus 3:9-11 was only for Pastors/Elders to apply which is no surprise though he did state that regular members need to ask if you are doing any of these actions yourself. Mahaney did say that that there was room for some discussion but that secondary or “unprofitable” discussion.

My take is that a lot of this is in how one defines being “divisive.” According to Mahaney it is the elders to decide if one is “divisive” and thus could easily use this label on someone to bully and try and silence regular members like we have seen with how Sovereign Grace likes to use a broad definition of what “gossip” and “slander” is.

I was glad that it was part of a series vs. a topic Mahaney specifically came up with as Jenn pointed out though I am sure it is intended as a warning to both members of Mahaney’s local church as well as others within Sovereign Grace. Action like this isn’t really surprising.

well…. I took the bait and listened to part of CJ’s message. I did not have time to get through all of it. Here is what I think SGC’s tactic has been for years:
1) take a concept like “above reproach” and move the definition to the left so the elders have wiggle room
2) take concepts like “divineness” or “church discipline” and move the definitions to the right so the congregants have less wiggle room

presto…. this allows them to appear to be orthodox while having these subtle double standards that benefit the organization. Denominations have always drifted left or right…. but SGM seems to drift right on some and left on others. They do whatever allows them to keep unqualified people employed while minimizing the dissent. Jesse Jarvis from Jacksonville nailed it when he sent his letter to SGM.

I listened to CJ’s message. Not surprising that he preached it 3 days after TIME magazine named Rachael Denhollander one of their 100 Most Influential People of the Year…and she was listed as a Silence Breaker. My impression is that CJ was in the midst of a jealous rage when he preached that message.

People can be divisive. I’ve seen it in churches, marriages, and families.

You express a concern once. Wait a bit, say that the subject is really important to you and you are concerned about others (not just me and my rights and my feelings) and bring it up a second time.

They won’t listen, so maybe you get somebody else to approach them a third time with a well expressed appeal. After that you can become a nag, a pest, critical, pushy, divisive, etc if you don’t quit.

You can decide to leave, or drop it, or set boundaries, or whatever, but at some point people can be divisive. I’ve seen it in churches when both when I agreed with their opinion and when I didn’t. If the person you are concerned about keeps harping on something then you can respond the fourth, fifth, sixth, etc, time yourself and it is on the other person, not you, but if they drop it, sometimes you have to drop it too. I saw one women almost wreck her marriage nagging about her opinion every day for a full year.

This isn’t what we have in SGM stories including the recent ones with people asking about an investigation. One question and you get slammed. One concern and you are not trusting them and not submitting and divisive. Seriously? Once? Twice? Are you kidding me?

Anybody who is still in SGM, given what was obvious with CJ reacting to the docs and Harris and running off to Looeyville, is pretty naive and maybe brainwashed. Maybe this is a good thing to get more people out. Maybe it will wake up a few that still have some analytical skills operating.

I’m the one that drew attention to that message and I’m also the one that is going to agree with you 100%. I felt bad after I posted it bc I know there are people here still trying to rebuild. I, like Jenn, havent listened to any of their messages in years but I noticed many of the SGM pastors were retweeting this message as if it was earth-shatteringly profound and remarkable. Yet I was disgusted, appalled, and shocked by the use of scripture to posture and manipulate people. It is sick and scary! It has actually haunted me all day! When he whispers, “This is Gods voice to you…”. I guess I just wanted to protect people. It makes me so sick! This guy really thinks he sits at the right hand of God. Sorry, but this type of person leads people to tents and has them drink koolaid.

If you are still recovering please do not attempt to listening to this!!!

checkmate- I don’t want to listen all through, but in case I want to share part with somebody, do you know the time of “God’s voice”? Thanks. A friend is torn, because he thinks CJs book on humility is such a great book.

Checkmate, please don’t feel badly! I have been out more than 15 years, and I KNOW I can’t/won’t/absolutely refuse to listen to any of their voices because I still don’t want to go there, but many people do and it’s OK. Truly, you have performed a service, warning people. It’s a good thing. :)

Titus 3:9-11 has to do with false teachers teaching a false gospel. C.J. applies the text broadly to church members that are interested in “unprofitable controversies.” It seems readily apparent he is referring to the “controversies” surrounding himself. For example, the call for an independent investigation of him and Sovereign Grace Ministries, Inc. by Rachael Denhollander and Mark Galli, editor in chief of Christianity Today, regarding the conspiracy to commit and cover up the sexual abuse of children. I find his application dangerous and extremely manipulative.

A divisive person is one who builds a ministry tearing down and mocking Christian leaders. A divisive person splits churches all over the world with the purpose of gleaning the leaders from all the other local churches rather than evangelizing those who have never heard the gospel. A divisive person teaches his people to follow him as he follows God, then he abandons the people who supported him for 40 years of their lives. A divisive person never repents of anything. A divisive person castigates people behind closed doors in the name of God. A divisive person turns national Christian leaders against his own church. A divisive person honors the rich and marginalizes the poor and needy and alone. A divisive person rejects his own family members for his perceptions of disloyalty. A divisive person separates loving pastors from their sheep at his pleasure. A divisive person tears apart families and marriages and parents and children over his refusal to reconcile with his own church. We know what divisiveness looks like. No need for a sermon.

I’ve written the following commentary with the hope and prayer it might open the eyes of those captured by the deception and subtle but destructive teachings of the leaders in Sovereign Grace Churches.

I just listened to CJ’s message on the passage in Titus noted by Checkmate in a previous post above. It is very disturbing to listen to the subtle spin and manipulation throughout CJ’s message. It reminds me of desperate manipulative dictators and cult leaders, historically captured on tape or film, railing to their followers to remain loyal. It is evident to me CJ is increasingly feeling the loss of power and control over the current storm and is pulling out all stops to avoid the inevitable … the implosion of his life’s work.
Those who remain in SGC and wholeheartedly embrace their doctrine and teaching will most likely not be able to parse out where CJ crosses the line into false teaching. However, if you listen carefully and prayerfully, with your bible open, it is relatively easy to identify the many errors contained in his diatribe of ominous warning to the church. In my opinion, it is glaringly obvious CJ is desperate in his attempt to accomplish the self-serving goal of convincing anyone who will listen, to minimize “the secondary importance and unprofitable controversies” surrounding the public challenge by Rachael Denhollander for an independent investigation into the alleged cover up of sexual abuse in the Sovereign Grace Church organization.
Throughout CJ’s message he continually hammers away at the false notion, the letter to Titus is primarily intended as a sober warning to members in the local church rather than other leaders who are teaching false doctrines. This is an important point to grasp, for without successfully convincing those listening they (the church) are the root problem (not false teachers as the passage clearly indicates), no gains can be garnered regarding the congregation’s assurance to avoid individuals who are recklessly spouting untruths regarding matters of secondary importance and unprofitable controversies ,i.e. the call for an independent investigation by Ms. Denhollander.
In the first half of the message CJ slips in a subtle yet very powerful and influential statement exposing the fundamental flaw systemic to all SGC churches; one that permeates their core doctrine and belief: that elders of the church are those primarily responsible for “guarding the integrity of the gospel/teaching/doctrines etc.” This is absolutely a false statement and cannot be biblically supported. What is biblically supported, is the collective congregation’s responsibility to do these things. What is most troubling about this issue is CJ’s cohorts, many of which are Baptist, who would view the ultimate and final authority of the church as a doctrinal hill to die on, yet we never hear any public challenge from these leaders regarding this demeaning and destructive false teaching continually perpetuated by the leaders of SGC.
CJ also states ad nauseam, that the gospel and the souls of men “are at stake” if these false and divisive teachers are allowed to continue to sow controversies and untruths. This is misleading. What the text indicates to be “at stake” is the relational termination between the false teachers and Titus, “have nothing to do with them” (false teachers not church members). Again, this is CJ’s attempt to incite fear in the congregation and go on a witch hunt for sin, divisiveness, and disloyalty, first in your own heart, then in the hearts of everyone else (accept of course SGC leaders. Their hearts have already passed muster).
CJ alludes to the necessity of exercising church discipline regarding those who persist in such nefarious behavior. This may be true, but it is not true who does the disciplining. A careful study of the New Testament, particularly Matthew 18, will show the congregation is the only entity authorized to exercise church discipline. This is not the prerogative of an individual or select group of individuals (leaders) and because it is a gross violation of scripture for anyone but the church to engage in the practice of church discipline, all manner of problems are likely to result, (i.e. SGC organization of churches).
In fact, leaders, elders, bishops, deacons, popes, committees, councils, etc. are not even remotely mentioned in the passage on church discipline. This is another powerful means by SGC leaders to reinforce the congregation’s subservience and dependence on SGC leaders. Accordingly, they must always remain in control and the only ones authorized by scripture to decide matters of church discipline, who’s in, who’s out, who’s hired and fired, who should be shunned and/or ostracized, whether the congregation has a meaningful voice or not, etc. … and so it is in SGC.
Beside this point, there is nothing in the passage about the need for church discipline. Paul simply says, “As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.” Titus 3: 10,11.
In other words, simply stop engaging in futile arguments and discussions and instead refuse to meet with him further. Future interactions with such an individual would be a waste of Titus’s time. After all, such an individual is “self-condemned.” There is no onus on the church or a leader to be the vehicle of condemnation toward this individual. Of course, CJ thinks it is his responsibility to assume this responsibility and he is giving everyone fair warning he and other SGC leaders have the authorization of scripture to address your divisive behavior if necessary.
Toward the end of the message, CJ states something to the effect that such an individual has the capacity to “draw people away from the faithful elders of the church.” Sorry, I didn’t get that as one of Titus’s concerns. But again, in the world of SGC, one’s loyalty and allegiance to the elders is paramount. Thus, CJ couldn’t help himself with an opportunity to emphasize this important component reinforcing what it means to be a member of good standing in a SGC church.
Ultimately, CJ’s message leaves the faithful (church members) likely shaking in their proverbial boots and eager to begin with renewed vigor their search for nefarious divisive individuals in their midst, particularly those who mention anything having to do with the need for an independent investigation. Unfortunately, the last place members of SGC are likely to look is the first place they should …. at those who teach such nonsense.

Of course, CJ thinks it is his duty to assume this responsibility and he is giving everyone fair warning he and other SGC leaders have the authorization of scripture to address your divisive behavior if necessary.

A divisive person (also cruel and abusive) removes a faithful, humble, gifted piano player, who is faithfully serving on the worship team, so that celebrity Bob Kauflin could walk up and play piano at the very first celebration. This happened 1/2 hour prior to the start of the first meeting with absolutely no warning or notice of any kind. And this is how the Mahaney/Kauflin team began.

Checkmate,
I was able to listen to CJ for the first time in years, but it was my choice to do that. I have learned that healing from abuse of any kind is a process and everyone is wherever they are in their process. I have also learned that part of healing is knowing where you are in your process and learning how to take care of yourself. That is often by trial and error. No one could have ever told me what to read and what not to read when I was healing. Only the Holy Spirit could teach me that.

I don’t think your motivation was to lead anyone to listen to an ungodly message. You were drawing attention to a level of evil that is very concerning and urgently needs the prayers of those who are able and feel so led. I am not always the person who can listen and pray. But yesterday I was, and so I thank you for sharing the link and your thoughts. Healing is messy work, but God is ever faithful. We can trust Him.

“Maybe this is what CLC gets when having this type of motive. Was their motivation to exalt Jesus or was it more to rebuild their church? It is appears that is was more the latter.
It looks like so far CLC has reaped the fruit of this type of motivation.”

Could I remind everyone that in posts like this, to be accurate, “CLC” should be read as meaning “the leaders” (i.e., pastors) of CLC. The members themselves have no say in leadership decisions, other than a few congregational “affirmations” of what the leaders have decided to present to us.

In a way (risking a few brickbats thrown at me) I don’t fault them for this. While I firmly believe that the pastor-centric model is unhealthy, CLC pastors are operating in the way they have been taught over several decades, and that model is upheld by a couple of Scriptures that have been interpreted to mean “Pastors have authority, and should be the ones to decide everything that’s important.” Not to mention the confirmation-bias from other leaders in the neo-Reformed movement who teach the same way.

To be “faithful” to what they have been taught, it’s hard to see how they could do differently. (Sigh…)

Could I remind everyone that in posts like this, to be accurate, “CLC” should be read as meaning “the leaders” (i.e., pastors) of CLC. The members themselves have no say in leadership decisions, other than a few congregational “affirmations” of what the leaders have decided to present to us.

Good point. It was CLC Leadership that made this decision to allegedly try and recruit a pastor with the motivation to

Pat Ennis (the person Brent mentioned) in this remark I understand though not being a pastor is on the board of CLC or at least had some leadership involvement in recruiting PJ Smyth. Does anyone else know anything different?

Hello all, this my 1st time posting as I’ve been watching the SGS site for about a decade, as a former member of Gathering of Believers, and then the GOB grew in to what is now CLC church; we were members of the congregation for 13 years. The history, and the time line from the early 80’s to present, has been just an amazing journey of people, from the past and present, whom I have known personally and have relationships to this day.

To see the effects of the (man centered) religion but using the Lord’s Name and His Church as a way and means to benefit one’s self at the expense of God’s People is sad indeed. It’s not a new concept, for we see it throughout history as preserved in the Holy Scriptures, a real eye opener.
This is NOT a blanket judgement, or a condemnation, to God’s people, or the local churches, as outlined in this conversation, but I use the statement for shock value (man’s centered religion) to be water in the face, to wake up to the realities at hand, of how God’s people and their lives have been affected in ways that may have resulted in a distorted view of God, His Church, His plan, His Land, His City, His Word, His ways, as we are to be a Light unto the nations, as has been revealed from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22.

For to be historically taught in CLC, and to sit under those teachings and doctrine, all those years ago at (GOB, CLC), numbs one’s owns ability to rightly divide the Word of Truth, as out lined in the scriptures. For it has been a journey to revisit scriptures and as Paul says 1st Thessalonians 5:21 Prove (or test) all things; hold fast that is good. my wife and I would see signs that, looking back then, was the Spirit of God saying and pointing out the inconsistencies and signs of hearts of men being revealed, by their fruit of conversation and preaching from the pulpit and their actions, that was contrary to the model of biblical leadership. (this did not happen overnight, but a slow process of surrendering the congregation’s roles of holding leadership accountable as outlined in Paul’s writings.

So I began to dig and inquire of those inconsistencies, for remember we were told that the pastors at (GOB, CLC) had your best in mind, and we live and show the world TRUTH and righteousness in our generation (their statement), to be a light of the Gospel of the good news to all mankind.

So, with seeing from my vantage point, that is I want to live in the Truth and righteousness living as out lined in the Holy scriptures and defined by Jesus Christ His life “THE WAY SHOWER “for Jesus said “I AM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE no one can come to the Father but by me” so believing that was in the leadership heart and desire as well, as to be built up as a local congregation, and at the time we were there as members in good standing.
I felt safe to share my thoughts and my concerns about the issues at hand. CLC doctrinal issues were changing in those years, as it concerned doctrines, from main line Christianity, of end time perspectives, for example, (1000-year reign of Christ) (tribulation) (pre trib, mid trib, to post trib,) theories, to a more doctrinal reformed/charismatic/ position. Mind you, this is what memories come to mind after 23 years after leaving CLC.

So, I went to a CJ one day after he was preaching on the (end times) and how we as believers should respond to those challenges and the effects of those understanding as a local church, and Her role in these last days.
I had some questions and needed some clarification about his (CJ) talking points on His message.
His answer to me was basically in so many words, all end time scenarios are allegorical period! End of conversation.
WOW – for someone to look up to and emulate as the scripture quoted often by leadership to CLC members, “obey those who rule over you, so for they have to give an account for your souls”.
What a contrast, it’s just a point in a time of a timeline, that would lead to a path of inquiry and discovery, that would eventually cause me to rethink and question what I believe and why, concerning the local assembly, and how we were drifting from the 1 century congregational model.

Now I’m not trying to raise or start a debate on these theories, but it raised the question, what do I believe, and what does CLC leadership believe now? This started a quest to find out those realities.

Another instance, CJ was speaking about a Christian Leader/author/public speaker, and putting Him in bad light, because he, CJ, disagreed with his (the Christen leader/author) doctrinal views as so to protect the flock from false doctrine, for we as leadership KNOW what is best for you., so I as a good CLC member, I went to this author in person, and ask him about the accusations leveled to him by local leaders in our area.
As out lined in Matt 18:15-18 More ever if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
But if he will not hear (thee, then) take one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (KJV)
Come to find out the very accusations made were indeed false. And CJ did not even talk to the man, or follow up and establish the facts before going public to the congregation but made statements from his views as fact, and was misleading about the (Christian/author/speaker) and now has been (slandered) by the very man (CJ) who preaches against such practices? And CJ has tapes that went all over the country at the time.
As a leader, he (CJ) violated Jesus’ own words, (Matt 18:15-18) how to resolve conflict or offenses and did bring difficulty to the general body of Christ, both locally and nationally. Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
But the standard of (believing the best) when It came to inconsistencies, or outright hypocrisy, if suspected, of a pastor or of leadership, we as CLC members were to first go in the spirit of inquiry and see the other side of the story. (some more than others but it was the general perception)
And from leadership we would be given the correct perspectives. This was the order of the day, in how we were to think, and respond, in our thoughts, and or actions as in the care and over site of those congregations.
So, it is apparent CJ Just came to his own conclusions, with only his view point at the time, and without the other side of the story that did cause divisions within CLC membership and congregation at the time. I’m going to step out and say, I speak with some knowledge of these doctrinal issues at the time, for I was an assistant home-group leader at the time and attended leadership meetings as it related to that level of servant leadership.
Here is my point, when you cross the line of Doctrine and leadership position, whatever the subject, you become suspect of loyalty and commitment in their view and put you in a box and have a preconditioned attitude towards you.
This is my experience after being a member of GOB CLC of 13 years, so I set a meeting with a pastor regarding our ongoing concerns, as it related to the issues out lined above, we set a date to meet and a local restaurant, to discuss the issues. Pastor never showed! So, I called the office and about 1 hour later I received a phone call of an apology and rescheduled another date.
same place, same time, no pastor, hum well let’s call the office again.
Pastor’s regular secretary was on vacation but the fill in secretary told me that the pastor was on an all-day fishing expedition with a group of pastors and would not be available. It’s amazing How God can thru circumstances can reveal things.
So, when you see or try to ask questions, and try to hold feet to the fire to get answers to biblical questions and answers, then do you see where you fit in, the list of importance by their CLC leadership actions and or responses as far as my time in CLC.
I get a call again profusely apologizing again.
So, we set 3rd meeting and had a nice chat, so I said let’s get down to brass tacks, Pastor said” why are we here”?
I said pastor, I’ve been trying to get a meeting for over 3 weeks now, and feel there is an avoidance on your part, to meet and have a conversation. So, I pull out my Bible and start to ask some questions.
He stopped me right in my tracks and said, “we don’t need that”. I could not believe what I just heard!
So, I asked him to please repeat what he just said, He said “WE DON’T NEED THAT” – what- my Bible?
He continued “If you don’t trust us, then we can’t have a conversation.”

In so many words “its best you find another church”. So, this event with pastor was in winter of 1994. How much has this root of this dynamic of (control) with God’s people, who don’t agree or with the party line? So, we see the effects of the top down shepherding doctrine, in its early roots planted in GOB and then to CLC, perfected and refined and repackaged to SGM and now to SGC.

As the religious leaders of Jesus’ day said we can’t allow this man to be left alone, all men will believe on him, and the Romans will take away our place and nation.
So, we as believers cannot hold back truths and facts as they are revealed by God Himself!
To allow the work of the Holy Spirit to expose the religious spirits in our day, that would cause men to be tempted and to compromise the Truth for unrighteousness.
And try to prevent the loss of their influence of power, and lose their place of prominence, and prestige, for Jesus also said” No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one and despise the other. ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
This is a very powerful statement by the Lord Himself, a truth, that by men’s actions, can and will manifest the hearts of men as in Jesus’ day as well in our day.

So, when I listened to CJ’s message on Titus, on the topic of protecting the local church – Whose doctrines was he protecting? the Church doctrines, or his own doctrinal understandings? And his current place of fame and prominence as a man of the cloth.
And was God himself allowing CJ to preach this sermon, for (out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth was speaking) to manifest out of his own heart, that all may see and judge. For when you preach publicly you can be tested publicly, it goes both ways. 1 Cor 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be manifest among you. (KJV)

A divisive person (also cruel and abusive) removes a faithful, humble, gifted piano player, who is faithfully serving on the worship team, so that celebrity Bob Kauflin could walk up and play piano at the very first celebration. This happened 1/2 hour prior to the start of the first meeting with absolutely no warning or notice of any kind. And this is how the Mahaney/Kauflin team began.

This is the first I heard of this and is sad especially with such short notice. I am sure the piano player that was removed from playing put a lot of preparation time in to then be sadly benched. One would think that Bob wouldn’t want something like this to happen or insist on the piano playing be at least shared. Then on the other hand like most others I am sure Bob knew better than to question the group’s pope.

I am sure this being put to the sidelines was rough on this gifted piano player.

I believe CJ’s personality and behavior come down to a lack of an awareness of true value in the eyes of God. “Religion” for him is an addiction to ease the pain inside that says, “you have no value.” He has manipulated and abused others into a place of submission to him so that he feels superior and then exerts such horrific control over their hearts and minds to keep them in that position. All so that the pain inside is numbed by adulation and power over others. He does not know the true grace of God. My impression is that many years ago, he substituted one addiction for another…drugs for religion. He drew crowds and followers early on and the “high” of that new “drug” has been his “god” all these years. He doesn’t worship God, he worships the “high” he gets from the adulation and control of others. Now the adulation and submission of his followers are being threatened. He’ll do whatever he must to ensure that the “drug” supply doesn’t dry up because where would the next fix come from? The message he preached from Titus was intended to keep the “drug” coming.

He has yet to learn that it is not all about CJ, it is all about JC. Jesus is the only one worthy of praise. Not CJ. That truth would set him free, but it is yet to be seen if that is God’s plan for CJ. God will deliver His people and I believe the time is coming soon.

…”Let my people go so that they may worship Me.” (Exodus 9:1)

(Just to note…Religious addiction is discussed in a book that I read many years ago after leaving my SG church by Steve Arterburn called: Faith that Hurts, Faith that Heals. It also talks about the roles of the various people in cult-like churches such as the co-conspirators, enablers, and outcasts (whistle blowers), and others. I found it to be an excellent read.)

>My impression is that many years ago, he [CJ] substituted one addiction for another…drugs for religion. He drew crowds and followers early on and the “high” of that new “drug” has been his “god” all these years.<

Really interesting analysis. I'm not sure that you're right, but it's possible. I agree that religious addiction is real, and I say that as a deeply religious person. It causes us to elevate ourselves, or (maybe especially) "our group" above others. "Our" way of doing things (preaching, worship styles, outreach methods…) and the excitement of attaching ourselves to something bigger than ourselves… it can be a heady draught that fuels us for years.

Trouble is, when the leaders of our movement are shown to have feet of clay, the resulting disillusionment can feel like our foundation is no longer firm. Since the cognitive dissonance this creates must be resolved, many end up rejecting God altogether. What a tragedy. Like many others who have commented here over the years, I have come to believe that "authority" is a dangerous concept in religious circles.

It's a rare man (or woman) who can keep their integrity intact when they are elevated to positions of control over others, especially when coupled with the lavish adulation the top leaders in SGM received.

I'm not convinced that CJ did not have a genuine experience with God in his early days. You could well be right, but my working hypothesis is that he was a genuinely transformed believer, gifted and smart, who like so many others failed to survive the crucible of massive praise and too much control over others.

Everyone go back up and read Balaam’s Donkey’s post. Louisville people, if you’re sneaking a peak at the blogs, go back up and read Balaam’s Donkey’s post. SGC people who are sometimes doubting if this is right, go back up and read Balaam’s Donkey’s post. This is false teaching. Call it out. Warn him once.

Someone sent me the audio file on that and I fought past the seductive and threatening speech and listened to the words and drew all of the same conclusions as Balaam’s Donkey. He makes some significant jumps and conclusions.

First, he talks about how rare this teaching is. Rare as the $2.00 bill.

Then, as Titus is apostolic delegate, it applies to elders. Ordinary people are not allowed to identify someone as divisive or call them out.

He makes it clear in the beginning the “controversies” the divisive one wants to discuss were in regards to genealogies and Jewish myths regarding the law. These are theological disputes about the law. That’s all.

Warn him once. Warn him twice. Then have nothing to do with him. It wastes the pastor’s time and you don’t want the divisive guy to have an undeserved sense of importance.

Then…JUMP again…

Who is the divisive person?

He is warped and corrupt and intentionally sinning. He is quarrelsome and loves to argue. He is zealous about arguing and influencing others. He is self-condemned. He is to blame. Not the pastors. Not the church. (Not the sex abusers). He would rather quarrel than serve. He wants to…

JUMP…sow suspicion.

They are not serving the church. They are self-appointed critics drawing people away from the faithful elders. They have an undo importance of themselves.

How does it apply to SGCL?

JUMP

There are unprofitable controversies over matters of secondary importance every week informed by slander and gossip in social media and in conversation. (Wait…what? I thought the controversies were about Jewish geneologies and the Bible? I thought this was about heresies? I thought this was about controversial secondary theological issues?)

You can be divisive in subtle ways (you sure can…see previous paragraph).

Be resolute not to be this guy.

(He took a message regarding guys involved in heresies of Jewish myths and turned it into church disciplining members on social media).

2nd! Seriously this guy is crazy and hurting people! Where is John Piper and anyone else that is supposed to be protecting the authenticity of the gospel and the church? Where are you elite preachers? Where are you? Have you no backbone to call this out? Will you challenge and appeal or will you put your head down and look the other way?

Giving in the evangelical community continues to decline every year. Why is that? Could it be that people arent trusting that the big names aren’t doing or saying anything about this stuff?

These are difficult days. The elders’ abbreviated announcement on Sunday has understandably caused great concern. Many of you have emailed or called to express your views. No matter what your opinion, we are grateful for your comments and want you to know that we are considering each one.

As I said on Sunday, the elders chose to postpone the announcement in response to a strong appeal from church members. Tonight we will be meeting with them and a few others to hear their concerns and seek their counsel. Would you please pray for our time together?

Let- yup. You nailed it. Maybe it is like the verse in Timothy that says not to make elders of a novice lest they be conceited. CJ had a true experience with the Lord but was plunged into authority and being adored way too soon. Whatever the drugs did, from the pain of his alcoholic Dad or whatever pain he carried, it was so easy to swap for the adoring crowds.

I think you would like this, about the development of full pathological narcissism in pastors. (I don’t agree about staying and praying vs leaving, but the analysis is good)

Checkmate- I was thinking of Piper today. When Peter fell into serious error as described in Galatians, it was the apostle Paul who stood up and rebuked him in front of everyone. I think it is going to take someone of the stature of Piper, Grudem, etc, to speak up, before this stronghold breaks. I do not know why they are silent…..can they really be that blind or ignorant?

As Brent’s post above indicates, CLC elders have been debating something and were going to announce it last Sunday. There was such an uproar from the congregation that the elders delayed the announcement and are meeting tonight. Many spontaneous prayer meetings were organized by members, not pastors, this week. Many are fasting.

I was not at the meeting but the unconfirmed rumors are that PJ Smyth may be fired as Lead Pastor and somehow the major leaders from Advance and New Frontiers are trying to intervene. Whatever happens, this is major church drama. Thousands of people and millions of dollars could be impacted.

Wondering about something….this is pretty much the only “watch blog” I look at regularly on the great internet of endless exposes, so maybe I missed it……

Up until now, what little I heard about Virgo was all good, so far as character goes. He has a reputation for honesty, integrity, and godly character, right? There isn’t some Virgo survival blog out there with stories of cult like corruption or dishonesty or abuse, right? Up until this moment with PJ, the man has been above reproach, is that right? (let us assume that not replying to Brent is not a character/integrity problem, like maybe he didn’t get to it yet or thinks ill of Brent or something like that).

Thinking all day about King Solomon. All the gifting and wisdom and he ends up burning incense to Molech in his older years. God have mercy on us.

So do we know for sure what the announcement was even supposed to be about? They made some type of decision and then received feedback before the decision was announced?

Hard to believe that they brought this guy PJ in and he does not even preach on a regular basis…. plus I am sure he is not spending quality time with any members of the congregation. Is he even there on Sunday? This simply looks like an attempted coup by the New Frontiers people…. they saw a chance to take over a distressed asset.

As Brent’s post above indicates, CLC elders have been debating something and were going to announce it last Sunday. There was such an uproar from the congregation that the elders delayed the announcement and are meeting tonight. Many spontaneous prayer meetings were organized by members, not pastors, this week. Many are fasting.

I am surprised that the CLC elders are even willing to meet with some members as Brent has indicated. It must be significant people that are in an uproar over something that the CLC elders think might affect the their bottom line in dollars.

I’m not convinced that CJ did not have a genuine experience with God in his early days. You could well be right, but my working hypothesis is that he was a genuinely transformed believer, gifted and smart, who like so many others failed to survive the crucible of massive praise and too much control over others.

I would tend to agree with the above statement. I use to hear C.J. speak back in the TAG days and I think he was genuine back there. Then again what is disappointing is reading about and recalling the rivalry that always seem to exist between Larry and C.J. That rivalry makes you wonder especially how sincere both men were about what they taught.

I am sure a number of factors lead to his departure from the truth. These include:

– As someone else pointed out Mahaney was always top dog or shared it with Larry and thus was always looked up to etc. On top of that Mahaney never went to college or as far as I understand worked a real job where he was “under” either a boss or a college instructor. Thus an inflated ego and minimizing other people’s opinions.

– Mahaney being surrounded by so many looking up to him and many in leadership sycophants never kept Mahaney in balance.

– On top of this Mahaney appears to be quite narcissistic. Thus if he has this personality disorder he probably really can’t help his actions. Many have theorized that due to Mahaney possibly having this disorder is why Mahaney has been so condescending about psychology and psychiatric medication.

The CLC Financial Advisory Committee was notified after the decision was made to release PJ from the pastoral staff. An appeal was made at the beginning of the service today to delay making the announcement.

Apparently the CLC Constitution and By-Laws require certain steps be taken in removing or accepting a resignation from a pastor. These steps were not taken, thus the appeal for a delayed announcement.

There was an “Elephant” balloon released in the meeting at the moment of Mark’s explanation of the delay.

The questions remain – Did PJ resign or is he being let go and why?” (End of message)

Let me throw this out there…are there any former SGM churches where the church, and not just the pastors, have repented for the abuse, the poor followership, legalism, pride, etc…that the church developed during their SGM years and sought God’s help in changing? Or, have they all gone on as if they were unaffected and the sin all, or mostly occurred in the SGM suite at Muncaster Mill?

I’ve been thinking about what Peach wrote, “…to be accurate, “CLC” should be read as meaning “the leaders” (i.e., pastors) of CLC. The members themselves have no say in leadership decisions, other than a few congregational “affirmations” of what the leaders have decided to present to us. In a way (risking a few brickbats thrown at me) I don’t fault them for this.”

It’s the last part “In a way…I don’t fault them for this.” I actually agree with you Peach! It’s just easier and more productive to operate any mission, company, team organization, etc when directors make the decision as opposed to a congregation voting on every little thing. But then how do you solve for the malpractice, lording, crazy, manipulative, non-repenting bozo’s in leadership?

The church I go to is elder led. They make most if not all the decisions. But guess what? The members have voting rights to remove or elect a new elder/pastor. So here’s the thing with this model. If Pastor Bravo becomes Pastor Bozo then Pastor Bozo gets a pastor boot.

I want to be clear that this post is not intended to start a polity debate. SGM would like everyone to think this is all over polity but it’s not! I’m just bringing this up bc I’m referencing something that seems to work and feels ‘safe’. Its a partnership. There’s a togetherness. If a process like this doesn’t exist then who keeps the Bozo pastor in check? If evangelical leaders can’t call out and rebuke such poor behavior and lack of character then there is no T4G but Together 4 ME.

But here’s where I’m really headed. If we believe that there should be one human authority for an organization then why do we post here? Why do I post here if I agree that the authority person should be accountable to no one but God? I have no axe to grind with anyone. I have no desire for any kind of eye for an eye or to get back at anyone. I’m not a victim but a victor! I’m free. I’m a Survivor!

Here’s why I post here. It’s exactly what Rachael Denhollander wrote,

“…the worst evangelical institutional failure of handling sexual and domestic abuse – Sovereign Grace Ministries, which spans decades, and which leaders, both of SGM and those who supported SGM, have yet to address.
This damages God’s children. It damages the gospel. And it should matter. Even, and especially, when it hurts and costs. Not because we want the church, or the gospel damaged, but because we want it seen in all its true beauty, and this mars it horribly.”

I want to stand for Jesus! This is all about Jesus! I want the gospel of Jesus Christ preserved for my kids and their kids!

CLC has so very little to do with SGM or any of it’s origins anymore. Most of the current pastors weren’t alive during SGM shepherding. CLC has very much become an international church reflective of the demographics in Montgomery County with Gaithersburg ranked the 2nd most diverse city in the country. The tremendous shift in population has left CLC pretty detached from it’s roots. Most of the people attending there would have no idea what anyone is talking about on this blog, and characteristic of many first generation immigrants, they are too busy making a living to deeply engage in the politics of the church.

I can’t help think Brent is being anything but a busy-body to being going after PJ or CLC at this point. The decisions of the leaders at CLC is simply not our business anymore. What motivation does Brent have to be talking to people in South Africa to bring down PJ? Why? Go get a job Brent and stop asking for donations from people.

It’s done. It’s finished. And, you’re no longer involved. This doesn’t have anything to do with you. Drop it already.

Whether the people at CLC choose to have PJ as a leader or not isn’t your business. They will have to decide that for themselves. This isn’t your picture to paint.

Wow, Just Sayin’, it’s not that simple. You dont just quit SGM and lose the effects of years of abusive, authoritative tendencies. I don’t think the guys at CLC want to continue in the way of SGM, but when it is all you have known, it does not go away over-night. If things were that drastically different, CLC would have followed it’s own constitution before executing a top-down decision. I dont know if firing or keeping Smyth is right or not. I haven’t really paid that close attention to this latest controversy, but to me, the whole decion-making process is the real test.

The Pittsburgh church also failed to follow its constitution when they forced out the senior pastor, recently.

2 former SGM churches both having difficulty moving away from pastor-centric, heavy-handed leadership is not a coincidence. It shows that churches need to do a lot more than leave SGM.

Just Sayin’ – I think you may be overstating. CLC may be moving away (to some extent) from the SGM model, but there are still significant people in leadership there who were part of the old guard. For example, I would find it really hard to believe Robin Boisvert has changed much, or that he would tolerate being in leadership that was so different from the SGM culture he helped create.

But the real question is not why is Brent injecting himself into the situation, but do you think he is incorrect? Because if he isn’t, then he is doing everyone – CLC and the leaders in South Africa and the UK – a favor. (Yes, there is something annoying about his tone and questionable about his motive, but at the end of the day – is what he’s saying right, or is it wrong? That’s what should matter.)

I’ve been thinking about what Peach wrote, “…to be accurate, “CLC” should be read as meaning “the leaders” (i.e., pastors) of CLC. The members themselves have no say in leadership decisions, other than a few congregational “affirmations” of what the leaders have decided to present to us. In a way (risking a few brickbats thrown at me) I don’t fault them for this.”

It’s the last part “In a way…I don’t fault them for this.” I actually agree with you Peach! It’s just easier and more productive to operate any mission, company, team organization, etc when directors make the decision as opposed to a congregation voting on every little thing. But then how do you solve for the malpractice, lording, crazy, manipulative, non-repenting bozo’s in leadership?

The church I go to is elder led. They make most if not all the decisions. But guess what? The members have voting rights to remove or elect a new elder/pastor. So here’s the thing with this model. If Pastor Bravo becomes Pastor Bozo then Pastor Bozo gets a pastor boot.

I want to be clear that this post is not intended to start a polity debate. SGM would like everyone to think this is all over polity but it’s not! I’m just bringing this up bc I’m referencing something that seems to work and feels ‘safe’. Its a partnership. There’s a togetherness. If a process like this doesn’t exist then who keeps the Bozo pastor in check?

[end of Checkmate commentary]

Just to clarify, when I said, “I don’t fault them for this,” here was the context (and I’ll comment below to hopefully clear up where I failed to be clear):

“In a way (risking a few brickbats thrown at me) I don’t fault them for this. While I firmly believe that the pastor-centric model is unhealthy, CLC pastors are operating in the way they have been taught over several decades, and that model is upheld by a couple of Scriptures that have been interpreted to mean “Pastors have authority, and should be the ones to decide everything that’s important.” Not to mention the confirmation-bias from other leaders in the neo-Reformed movement who teach the same way.

To be “faithful” to what they have been taught, it’s hard to see how they could do differently. (Sigh…)

[end of Peach quote]

Checkmate, I agree with you that it’s not “all about polity,”” but *polity follows theology.* (I wish I knew how to put that last phrase in italics!) Unless we are just outright hypocrites, our beliefs will inform our practice. If the theological beliefs that a pastor-team follows say that pastors have a divine right to “rule,” then the church constitution that they craft will reflect that belief, as it does as CLC. Pastors make all of the important decisions at CLC and *they must*, if they are to be consistent with what they believe.

I don’t agree with their misinterpretation of Scripture, but I understand how they got there. As discussed on this site, they received that teaching originally from the shepherding movement, but in recent decades this wrong interpretation of the so-called “submission” scriptures was given new life by the neo-Calvinist movement (Piper-Grudem-Mohler-Dever-DeYoung et al). Thus, the echo-chamber effect or what I referred to as confirmation bias.

For CLC and churches in this movement, Pastoral Authority is the air they breathe. All the leaders they know and respect teach the same doctrine.

So… while I firmly disagree, I understand. CLC pastors are well-intentioned men, trying to do God’s work. Like all people following Jesus with a flawed understanding of Scripture (that’s most of us, eh?) they get some things wrong. Submission to Authority is something that can go very wrong, indeed.

If you Google “misinterpretation of Heb. 13:17” or something similar you’ll find more sites. (If you have a Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Dr. Vines’ analysis of Heb. 13:17 is similar.)

Let me throw this out there…are there any former SGM churches where the church, and not just the pastors, have repented for the abuse, the poor followership, legalism, pride, etc…that the church developed during their SGM years and sought God’s help in changing? Or, have they all gone on as if they were unaffected and the sin all, or mostly occurred in the SGM suite at Muncaster Mill?

That is a very good question. To my knowledge I haven’t heard of any churches doing this. Some have mentioned there was some discussion “Monday Morning Quarterbacking” at CLC but really not any full repentance. Does anyone have any details of repentance actually occurring at any churches leaving the SGM “Association” including CLC?

If nothing else the local pastors should ask themselves how they were duped? Maybe their leaving is only due to how poorly Sovereign Grace responded to what was revealed in the documents such as denying it was God’s discipline and allowing C.J. Mahaney’s sin and hypocrisy to be minimized?

CLC has so very little to do with SGM or any of it’s origins anymore. Most of the current pastors weren’t alive during SGM shepherding. CLC has very much become an international church reflective of the demographics in Montgomery County with Gaithersburg ranked the 2nd most diverse city in the country. The tremendous shift in population has left CLC pretty detached from it’s roots. Most of the people attending there would have no idea what anyone is talking about on this blog, and characteristic of many first generation immigrants, they are too busy making a living to deeply engage in the politics of the church.

So most of the pastors weren’t alive during SGM shepherding. I would think you more meant around CLC when they were practicing “shepherding.”

First of all when did CLC really stop shepherding if ever? Some degree of that was something that CLC always did up to when CLC left the SGM “association” and have probably continued. A lot of this is how you define shepherding.

Now lets look at the pastors.

Mark Mitchell CLCs executive pastor has been around since the early 90’s and on staff since the mid 90’s. I am sure “shepherding” was going on both when he came to CLC and when he came on staff.

Robin Boisvert Wasn’t he one of C.J.’s friends going way back before C.J. Mahaney’s conversion? Also he has been on staff for a while.

Greg Somerville Been on the staff since 1997 and thus around even longer.

There may be a few young faces among the pastors that maybe “weren’t alive during SGM shepherding” but you can’t say that about most. Thus I am sure most of CLC Leadership were involved in “shepherding” and thus in all likelihood still practice it in some degree.

5years and Peach – thanks for your comments. I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to comment on whether CJ had a genuine faith experience or not as that is not my place to judge. I just don’t think he acts or preaches as if he knows God’s grace. But you both make good points about how someone could have had a true conversion by God’s grace and still fall so far from the truth.

Ultimately, no one has greater authority than the church. The insistence to subjugate the church’s authority is why all this nonsense occurs. Until the members of the congregation come together in agreement regarding this simple truth they will continue to be lorded over and abused. The members of CLC should tell the the elders to sit down and be quiet. The congregation will decide what is best for them and the leaders can submit to their decision or leave.

P.J. egregiously lied when he told CLC he had no knowledge of the allegations against his well-known father for sexual sadism, voyeurism, and exhibitionism; when in fact, he had full knowledge of these allegations and was fully involved in the process leading up to his father’s arrest, remand, and trial. Had he been honest during the interview process with CLC in 2015, he would never have been hired. The CLC elders became aware of P.J.’s deception in March 2017 but covered it up. They continued to do so despite the indisputable evidence I presented a year later this past March.

I’d love to see CLC prosper but that won’t happen until P.J. is removed and the elders step down. Moreover, P.J. should not be leading Advance or be on the apostolic team for Newfrontiers. It is not a matter of going after him or anyone else, it is a matter of honoring God by obeying holy Scripture and removing leaders who are duplicitous and self-serving.

Furthermore, the elders at CLC have yet to come clean regarding the conspiracy to cover up the sexual abuse of children. Rachael Denhollander and Mark Galli, editor in chief of Christianity Today, called for an authentic, thorough, and professional investigation by an outside agency. The supposed “independent investigation” by Lars Liebeler in 2013-2014 was a complete sham. There was nothing independent about it. He acted with prejudice and withheld vital evidence from the church. He did so because he was hired to be their lawyer. He could not incriminate them. The elders deceived the church into believing he was an “independent” investigator when he most certainly was not. As a result, Liebeler didn’t even bother to contact the plaintiffs/victims in the lawsuit. That is reprehensible.

My “tone” is mild compared to that of Scripture when addressing this type of corruption. My motive is to see God glorified through leaders who have integrity and are not driven by selfish ambition and the love of reputation.

Just saying (Crumbled), I have addressed your own lying and deceit on Todd Wilhelm’s blog before in “Brent Detwiler’s Factual Rebuttal of Covenant Life Church Apologist.”

You have been, and continue to be, the leading apologist of invective and disinformation for CLC. I too hope you to come to repentance. No one looking out for the interest of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, would give support to either P.J. or the pastors.

The Lord has been very patient with the CLC pastors, but they have been very rebellious. They have spurned his great kindness that was intended to produce repentance. It takes little discernment to realize the Lord has CLC in the grip of his justice. He is the One who has brought them down and his holy opposition continues.

Though I lament their sin, I have never rejoiced in their calamity. Instead, I have tirelessly worked for their good through endless appeals. That is why I have earnestly called for their repentance, hoped for their transformation, and prayed for the mercies of God. That began in 2004, when they failed to address C.J. Mahaney and hold him accountable because of cowardice. Their compromise then, contributed to the demise of SGM later.

Now again, compromise is at work. P.J. won’t be removed, and the elders won’t resign, for the sins above. Instead, these men are dividing over the direction of the church.

Can you imagine Barry W or any of the other guys the A team degifted with Brent’s help, instead of becoming the church janitor and handy man at a reduced salary, deciding to not get a job and starting a website to expose the corruption in the SGM Apostolic team, while asking for donations??

It makes me laugh just thinking of the reaction Brent would have had, at least up until he got the boot himself.

“The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working” (James 5:16).

Dear Church,

Thank you for your earnest prayers. While the elders were meeting last night with a group of members, scores of you gathered in the Auditorium to cry out for God’s mercy and to ask him to help your leaders walk in humility. No doubt many others were praying elsewhere. Nothing has more power and potential at this time than fervent prayer.

In last night’s meeting, a group of members shared some strong concerns with us. They spoke firmly, yet graciously and clearly. They were quick to express their love and faithful to register their disappointment with the fact that disagreements have been occurring among the elders for months without the congregation’s knowledge.

Tonight the elders will meet again to review their concerns, pray, and decide how to respond. Would you please pray for us again? We want very much to honor the exhortation in 1 Peter 5:5: “Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for ‘God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.’”

I haven’t given up on CLC and I am praying for them and rooting for them. I think it is quite possible that pastors genuinely want to please God but continue to make mistakes large in part because it’s hard to break old habits especially when so much stays the same, yet, to them, it must feel as though everything was so drastically turned upside down that they must swept away the old.

I am encouraged by the many who gathered to pray, tonight. Keep it up, brothers and sisters!

As I’m reading here concerning CLC, I feel that they may need to go back and hold accountable in some way, the one who was a beloved leader, who walked way as if nothing needed to be made right, who never repented nor asked the congregation for forgiveness and a second chance; namely CJ Mahaney. Perhaps that church needs to go that far back before hoping to find a replacement pastor and begin moving on from the past. Things need to be dealt with and not stepped over, in trying to make things right again. Maybe a face-to-face confrontation where an official termination notification for ‘conduct unbecoming’ or ‘dereliction of duty’ would suffice.
Rev 2:5 – “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand – unless you repent.” [Rev 1: ‘…and the seven lampstands that you saw are the seven churches.’]

After all of CJ’s years of recklessly disqualifying men of God from the worship team or usher’s team or care group leaders or staff for making simple mistakes…but CLC failed to administer I Tim 5 when he shipwrecked 3000 members and their children and disowned his own family members and refused to answer charges brought by his own church of 40 years.

It’s true that CLC might not see the blessing of God until they do what is right. God will not be mocked.

I think the weight of losing the support of New Frontiers is going to be too much for their worldly minds to overcome. There really isn’t any decisions but to remove themselves from PJ Smith and his outright lies. Doubt it will happen. The “world” will creep in to their decisions and they won’t honor the Lord or TRUST HIM. Hope I’m wrong, but they haven’t show any behavior that would lead me to believe otherwise.

Brent said above, speaking negatively of the CLC elders, “Now again, compromise is at work. P.J. won’t be removed…”

Terry Virgo has had a stellar reputation regarding his personal character, from what little I know, which would lead me to guess that Virgo would make PJ step down for some period of time because of the lies. So CLC doesn’t want to go along with that? CLC doesn’t care about the lies?

Other posts made it sound like CLC wants to fire PJ, but Virgo does not want that to happen and is trying to influence them not to dump Smyth. If that is true, then the respect Virgo has earned in the international community just landed in the trash can.

So nobody really knows, right? The CLC elders are divided, I get that, but which side is Virgo on? The side of lies or the side of making PJ take a long period of discipline?

In case you missed it, Beth Moore has written an open letter to “conservative evangelical pastors” in which she calls out misogyny. The shocker to me was to see Thabiti Anyabwil write a response, repenting of misogyny on the Gospel Coalition blog. No one else signed the blog post he wrote, but it was shocking, nonetheless. May God move on hearts to call for an independent investigation of SGM.

“Send out your light and your truth; let them lead me; let them bring me to your holy hill and to your dwelling!
Then I will go to the altar of God, to God my exceeding joy,
and I will praise you with the lyre, O God, my God.”
(Psalm 43:3-4).

Dear Church,

Thank you for your continued prayers for us.

The elders met last night and had a helpful discussion. We know you are eager for more information and we want to provide it, but we don’t want to communicate prematurely. Please continue to ask the Lord to fill us with wisdom and grace. We will share more as soon as it’s prudent to do so.

“Please continue to ask the Lord to fill us with wisdom and grace.”
Mark Mitchell

It ain’t working!

“These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”
Matthew 15:8 NIV

“PJ has been through a thorough examination process, he clearly meets the qualifications for eldership and he wholeheartedly embraces the responsibility to shepherd, oversee, lead, and care for this local church in partnership with all the elders.”

Todd, I think you make a lot of judgements in that last comment that may or may not be true. I would be slow to proclaim that peoples’ prayers, “ain’t working.” The truth is that we do not know what the discussions are like and God may use those prayers to either change hearts or to speak to people to leave.

Your tone and parsing of quotes in recent comments and posts only allows that leaders willfully choose to make heavy-handed choices. I think it’s possible if not likely that people can be ignorant or unknowingly blinded to issues and personally, I am willing to extend grace if there is some degree of humility being demonstrated. I haven’t agreed with CLC leaders’ choices on many things but they have demonstrated some humility and listened to their congregation, for some at great personal loss.

Maybe you should wait for more details instead of presuming so much? I think the difference between you and some of us is that we have had at least some level of relationships with people who are pastors or members of CLC, so we still hope and pray for change for their sake.

I think it’s possible if not likely that people can be ignorant or unknowingly blinded to issues and personally, I am willing to extend grace if there is some degree of humility being demonstrated. I haven’t agreed with CLC leaders’ choices on many things but they have demonstrated some humility and listened to their congregation, for some at great personal loss.

CLC did choose to leave SGM apparently in apparent response to how SGM chose to handle C.J. Mahaney’s sin and hypocrisy so they have done some good things. On the other had it is a shame that they ended up recruiting Smyth with maybe not the best of motives and then all that has come out about what Smyth knew about his father’s actions.

Again hopefully CLC Leadership will now make the decision that God really wants done for CLC. I am sure it would be hard for them to fire Smyth since they recruitIted him and affirmed him. It is the old having try and “save face.”

You have to keep in mind that for maybe 20 years, SGM promoted itself as Reformed and Charismatic, or Calvinist and Continuist/Continuationist. For the first time in 2000 years they were doing it right, joining the holy spirit and sound doctrine. The best, the superior ones.

When CJ left and then Harris, it was a perfectly understandable decision to listen to Terry Virgo. Virgo is the British and International equivalent of “Calvinist-Charismatic”, with probably way more emphasis on the holy spirit side and less top down control. At this point until the facts come out, I am willing to believe nobody knew about Smyth senior, and PJ had not yet lied and tried to cover up anything. When the story about Smyth Sr broke, I initially believed PJs statements that he was a kid away at boarding school, and maybe later he buried some trauma.

Todd Wilhelm has done a fantastic job researching this and getting facts from the leading men involved in dealing with Sr. At this point I don’t think there is any question PJ lied, whether from weakness or wickedness I don’t know. Hopefully shame and embarrassment, possibly far worse. The elder statesman who said the apple didn’t fall far from the tree would send chills down my spine if I was at CLC “under” PJ.

Like Jenn I want to extend grace, but like Todd I am cynical. I don’t know that we will ever know the truth but maybe some facts will come out. I do hope CLC does the right thing too, but after 30+ years of the strongholds operating there, it will take huge changes.

After having seen “godly” men fall from grace for the past 40 years, I too have little hope in them who have historically failed in their walk with Jesus. Reason being is that they’ve never repented from their worldly ways and don’t know how to hear God any longer. They do it in their own strength and with worldly logic.

There is a great and true quote that I repeat often… ” history repeats itself because the passions of man never change”.

Unless one is born again and gives his heart and mind over to the Lord, he will fall prey to sin … over and over and over again.

The CLC ship sailed years ago. Can they change? Yes, but only if they fall on their face, repent and rededicate themselves to Gods Word and to obeying it.

However, their hearts are looking at these issues through worldly eyes. To be called on the carpet by the members of the church and have to go back and rethink their decision process proves that these men are not in unison with god’s word.

I strongly disagree the CLC pastors are “likely…ignorant or unknowingly blinded to issues.” They knowingly and intentionally misled CLC, and continue to do so, regarding P.J.’s knowledge of his father’s criminal acts. They also knowingly and intentionally misled CLC regarding the “independent” investigation by Lars Liebeler and did not hesitate to call multiple victims, liars.

Many other examples of willful deception could be cited. For instance, the current situation. It is like 2011, when Joshua Harris stepped down from the SGM board. He and Dave Harvey said all was well – 98% agreement. Or the same year, when Joshua said all was well with the CLC elders – perfectly united. Then Brian Chesemore and Mike Bradshaw resigned, left the church, and revealed there was long term conflict over C.J.’s inferior role. Or Joshua telling Greta Kruez (an eminent D.C. reporter) in 2012 that CLC has always been committed to involving the police, when in fact, they never involved police in cases of sexual abuse. All of these deceptions were supported by the staff pastors. They also knowingly and intentionally refused to discipline C.J., fearing his wrath, even though they knew he was clearly disqualified from ministry.

Now we discover there have been major conflicts over the direction of CLC for several months. To such an extent, the elders voted to fire P.J. on April 26. And yet, P.J. and the elders, have pretended they are united on the direction of the church since they began the “Forty: Forward Together” series on January 6. As is the case with SGC leaders, you can’t trust anything the CLC pastors tell you. So much of it is smoke and mirrors. They too are masters of spin.

If prayers are working, and there is more than lip service, it will result in the resignation of the entire pastoral staff. They will also publicly confess to their many deceptions, and those of their predecessors, over decades.

Yesterday, Mark Mitchell said in his email, “The elders met last night and had a helpful discussion. We know you are eager for more information and we want to provide it, but we don’t want to communicate prematurely. Please continue to ask the Lord to fill us with wisdom and grace. We will share more as soon as it’s prudent to do so.”

Covenant Life Church doesn’t need “more information” when “its prudent.” They need the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Not only about the months long conflict which resulted in P.J.’s firing, but also in regards to P.J.’s lying, the historic cover up of sexual abuse, and their cowardice regarding C.J., etc. It is a long list.

Members asked the pastors on March 4, whether a new investigation would be done. They also asked for a response to Rachael Denhollander’s devastating analysis of Liebeler’s report. No response two months later. These men are not accountable. They are not about “wisdom and grace” and “prudence.” They are about deceit and looking out for themselves, not the interests of Jesus Christ.

When they engage a truly independent investigation that involves the victims, rather than excludes them; when they supply a detailed response to Denhollander treatise; when they confess they never reported sex abusers to police; and when they expose P.J. for his deceit; that is wisdom, grace and prudence. That is pleasing God. But these men have repeatedly demonstrated they are governed by self-interest, not the interests of Jesus Christ.

If the elders reverse their decision and retain P.J., it is only because of pragmatics. They really wanted P.J. out but the Financial Advisory Committee told them the church will fold in less than a year for loss of income from people leaving over P.J.’s termination. That is why the announcement of P.J.’s dismissal was postponed on April 28.

No one is operating out of biblical principal. It is about salvaging CLC in the flesh. It is extremely revealing that the elders did not remove P.J. for his duplicity. They are content with his lying. A far cry from Peter’s leadership in Acts 5 regarding Ananias and Sapphira. More than content, they are complicit in covering it up.

I suspect the elders will succumb to the pressure being put upon them and reserve course even though the disagreements with P.J. are major. If so, they may put themselves forward as humble servants who listened to church members.

From my perspective, Mark Mitchell is putting on a pretentious show of spiritually in his emails. It reminds me of C.J.’s hypocritical tweets and sermons. Mitchell has repeatedly lied for P.J., disparaged victims of sexual abuse, defamed those who have testified to a conspiracy, adamantly acclaimed Lars Liebeler an “independent” investigator, refused to answer questions openly and honestly, pretended there is unity with P.J. when there is division, and so much more. When he shares “more information,” I expect it will be more disinformation. That has been his standard mode of operation.

If P.J. leaves, people will leave. If P.J. stays, people will also leave. They don’t think his preaching has depth and they don’t like the amount of topical preaching he does. They want in-depth expositional preaching. Others will leave because they don’t want to join the Advance movement of churches which P.J. heads. And people will also leave because they rightly cannot, indeed should not, trust P.J. or any of the elders, given the present disaster.

I think the Lord would give CLC grace to navigate directional issues if their pastors humbled themselves and dealt with the ethical issues first. And behind the ethical issues, is the issue of Jesus Christ and his headship over the church. When P.J. was put forward as lead pastor, he was effectively celebrated as the “savior” of CLC. He was the answer to their dwindling numbers and depressed finances.

As I listen to P.J.’s messages, I think he was significantly motivated to get the job for personal greatness. And that explains why he hid the information about his father from the pastors. Moreover, his father raised him to be great and was the epitome of deceit. John Smyth was expert at covering up his horrendous beating of boys and young men. P.J. observed some of these beatings in Zimbabwe. P.J. also appears to like associating with people the world considers great (e.g. political leaders).

The Covenant Life people, wealth and property were a stepping stone to that greatness. P.J. always wanted these assets for Advance according to what Pat Ennis told me. Ennis headed up the Search Committee that recommended P.J. Ennis recently left CLC in March.

From my perspective, pride has gone before the fall. Behind all deceit is a desire to look good, not bad. So often, it is rooted in selfish ambition and the desire for greatness. I don’t expect there will be true change at CLC. I’d love to be wrong but that would require radical repentance resulting in public confessions, answering to Rachael Denhollander, repudiating the Liebeler investigation, doing a new investigation, restituting victims, acknowledging the conspiracy to cover up and interfere with justice, dealing with multiple issues from the past (e.g. the enablement of C.J.), and the acknowledgement of habitual lying and deceit.

In addition, P.J. must publicly call upon his father to leave South Africa and turn himself in to law enforcement in England. Victims of his father have asked P.J. to do this but he refuses. Top investigative journalist, Cathy Newman of the UK, has also asked to interview P.J. but he refuses. Most grievously, P.J. has expressed no personal care or concern for the victims of his father’s crimes. They have spoken to me about his self-centered concern for himself, not them. He has done nothing to console them.

In March of 2017, I asked P.J. to reach out to his father’s victims and be a spokesman if he really didn’t know about the allegations against his father. Instead, he continues to protect his father and himself. That is so hypocritical since P.J. has positioned himself as a champion of social justice at Covenant Life Church. He will speak out against racism in Charlottesville, VA (August 2017) but he will not speak out against his father or reveal his past defense of his father or acknowledge he knew all about his father’s atrocities.

Brent- what do you know, as in excellent reliable sources, regarding Virgo at this moment? He is the one who urged CLC to hire PJ, right? As far as you know, he was as duped as everybody else thinking PJ was a great preacher and good guy with good doctrine who wants to see the Holy Spirit move sort of thing, right?

Is it true Virgo last month or so pressured CLC to keep PJ, despite the lies, or is that speculation (somewhere up above)?

Mark Mitchell never drank the kool-aid. He’s a straight guy with a lot of fear of God, but he was never a suck-up to SGM. In fact, he’s very aware of the destruction they’ve caused in the lives of believers.

It is SGM that chose to split all of these churches. Their sinful actions have forced every single church to figure out if they were staying or going and rethink what they believed. As suspected, first CLC and now all the churches from that movement are dividing.

The instant SGM withdrew from CLC, members were divided on the next step. Many hoped it would go back to being charismatic, while others expected to become Presbyterians and everyone else in between.

Until the false accusations in the lawsuit withdraw their charges, the true victims will never see justice. I can’t see SGM repenting of the ones that were fabricated.

Terry recommended P.J. to Joshua Harris after Joshua resigned. The Search Committee gave no serious attention to other candidates according to Pat Ennis. P.J. has a long history with Terry. He is one of the top seven apostles who lead Newfrontiers which Terry founded.

I don’t know for a fact Terry and the other Newfrontiers leaders (David Devenish, top apostle; Steve Van Rhyn, one of the seven) who respectively preached at CLC on April 15 and 22, were there intervening on P.J.’s behalf but that certainly could be part of the conflict. The elders decided to fire P.J. on April 26 right after their visits. It hardly seems coincidental.

On a different note, Terry preached on Feb 25. People raised concerns for licentiousness in his teaching. I would agree. P.J. had to address the issue the following week.

I know and like Terry. I also appreciate the work of Newfrontiers. But unfortunately, I think they have been willing to cover up for P.J. and that may be related to a faulty understanding of grace. They may also be motivated by self-interest. In his Feb 4 message, P.J. referred to the 40 acres and massive building as “just ridiculous – an astonishing place.” He also referenced the awe it inspires in his friends from Advance when they visit.

Everyone from Advance and Newfrontiers realize CLC is a gold mine. In reality, the gold mine may bankrupt them. Giving is 10% under budget. There are plans to lay off Greg Sommerville. Monthly giving is not strong. P.J. planned to turn all this around and start a campaign in the fall to raise 5 million dollars above tithes over the next five years. Now the Financial Advisory Committee is telling the elders the church will go under if P.J. goes.

P.J. is a good but not a great preacher both in terms of content and delivery. I don’t think he can fill up CLC auditorium. That is one of the problem with big church buildings.

I was just told the CLC elders will be making their announcement tomorrow after the Sunday morning meeting. I think that is the case but nothing is certain and my information may be faulty. If true, I don’t know if the elders will announce P.J. is staying or going or something else.

After having seen “godly” men fall from grace for the past 40 years, I too have little hope in them who have historically failed in their walk with Jesus. Reason being is that they’ve never repented from their worldly ways and don’t know how to hear God any longer. They do it in their own strength and with worldly logic.

I wish I could say otherwise but unfortunately you are correct. There are very few if any “godly” leaders that admitted their sin and taken the consequences and steps necessary for repentance. This would include:

The parts that are unknown to me, and maybe known to others, seem to be what people assume are lies. They may very well be lies, but I think it’s also possible that, for example, Josh answered the reporter, honestly, according to what he had been told. I think that if he did that, it was a mistake, and he showed poor judgement, but not a lie. In these issues, unless someone has first-hand knowledge, he cannot assume that others have accurately and honestly relayed information to them.

I am not saying that I think CLC is telling the truth, just that my limited access to the information makes me hesitant to jump to the label of lies. I also think we could do without Todd’s snark.

If the elders reverse their decision and retain P.J., it is only because of pragmatics. They really wanted P.J. out but the Financial Advisory Committee told them the church will fold in less than a year for loss of income from people leaving over P.J.’s termination. That is why the announcement of P.J.’s dismissal was postponed on April 28.

I don’t think he can fill up CLC auditorium. That is one of the problem with big church buildings.

It is a shame that this is all so motivated by money and burden of having such a large building that requires so much income to operate. One would think that they shouldn’t that much in expenses and mortgage payments that they would have trouble operating if attendance was somewhat reduced.

There are alternatives if the congregation gets small.

– One would be to move to a smaller building. I have said this before but I am sure Church of the Redeemer would be interested in a swap where COR paid the cost of getting a larger facility. I would think this transaction could also involve SGM’s portion of the building being paid for.

– Downsize the staff. It is surprising when you look and see how many people CLC has on staff.

– I thought that some of the CLC building was constructed to allow it to be turned into office space. Maybe the could do that and rent out space and thus have less of a burden to of such a large facility.

If the lord Him self is truly putting pressure on the CLC congregation and the leadership, to completely open and in the light, with this current situation.
Only complete surender to the Holy Spirit, and total death to a vision.
And if God Himself will give the Wisdom of Soloman to work out the most complex problems to date. And if that wisdom from above, will show no mercy to compromise or half hearted response.
God Himself has been waiting for almost 40 years, sence the birthing of this fellowship, to do the right thing in the sight of God.
Lets not mince words here, on this blog here, it had documented of the history form TAG days with Cj and leadership team then, in which the leadership is still active today with churches all over the country, different names but the paper trail leads back the Gaithersburg where it all started.
For there is a current CLC member in leadership, who was at the beginning, and there implies the accountability.
Maybe He (God) will let the CLC stay and be blessed by His presence.
But if there is not a complete obedience to His clear command to repent as a church.
Then 2 options remain, one shutdown the ministry. Everyone go back to a home chuch settings, and test and see who is approved amoung you, and if God allows to rebuild.
2nd option is keep it going, limp along and completely exhaust all resources, lose everything and go into captivity. And be shattered to multitudes of congregations over a tri- state area. It is very clear in biblical history, that God will not bless, hidden sin, from the individual, to the whole congregation, and from biblical requirement, to hold leadership accountable. If His people in the ancient times was allowed to be in captivity, Remmber Paul’s words ” Its a fearful thing to fall in to the Hands of the Living God”

Jenn, this is the quote from Greta Kreuz when she interviewed Harris in October 2012.

[Kreuz] “The lead pastor, Joshua Harris…says the church has never tried to cover up abuse.” [Harris] “There has never been a policy like that. We are very committed to involving the authorities. Our biggest concern is not our reputation or what anyone thinks of us, it is caring for kids well.” [Kreuz] “But those now suing don’t buy it.”

As a matter of fact, Harris knew about the long term serial sexual abuse of boys by Nathaniel Morales in August 2007. Morales even confessed his crimes to Grant Layman. Layman passed the information to Harris and the governing elders. It didn’t matter. Harris and his staff still conspired not to report Morales or involve law enforcement. That was made perfectly clear at the Morales’ trials in May 2014. As a result of their conspiracy, Morales continued to abuse boys from 2007 until his arrest in 2012. That “first hand knowledge” came out in the court testimony of Grant Layman, Rachael Bates-Paci, David Tapia, Wayne Pratt and others.

Harris covered up abuse and did not involve authorities contrary to his public relations hoopla.
And as I’ve stressed before, if Harris, et al. determined not to report Nathaniel Morales, they were not going to report anyone. That too was the case with Olivia Llewellyn and her siblings. Joshua knew they were being beaten and sexually abused by their father but he and his staff did not report him to law enforcement. That was willful choice to protect the predator and further harm the victims. He was not “caring for kids well.” He was preoccupied with the reputation of the church and what people thought of the church. As a result, the abuse continued in the Llewellyn home. I don’t know how Harris or any of the pastors sleep at night.

Joshua was not honest with Greta Kreuz. He knew what he was telling her had no basis in fact. It was a lie on multiple counts. There was an unwritten policy of covering up and not involving law enforcement which he fully followed. It destroyed many lives. He practiced the exact opposite of what he told Kreuz.

Harris is one of the many that need to come clean. He also knew the Liebeler investigation, under his watch, was a complete sham. He needs to own that also.

Does anyone know if it is true the pastors had a late night of crying and prayer when Grant’s testimony about Morales came out, and Josh Harris insisted they come clean with the congregation? Kenneth and Robin said if Josh Harris confided to the congregation they would resign? Josh Harris said if he didn’t come clean with the congregation then he would have no choice but to resign? They ended the evening undecided. The next day Josh admitted there were contradictions between the previous statement and Grant’s testimony. He admitted to having been unsure himself of the facts. He admitted to having been sexually abused as a child. He was very emotionally distraught.

Was it true Grant had to change his testimony after having been presented with evidence and under the threat of perjury?

These pastors wielded untold power and fear within SGM. They had secret files and informants that rivaled the Stasi and the KGB. I find Josh Harris claim to not know the details of the Nate Morales case to be a lie or a willingness to not to want to know the truth. These men allowed a sexual predator to continue abusing children because they feared for their own reputations above doing the right thing when they had already blown it once before.

As for Brent, I’m still waiting for your Mea Culpa. You practiced and preached the same heavy handed pastor centered doctrine that enabled these men. You knew aabout and documented CJ’s bkackmail of Larry in 1996. Why did you wait a decade to speak publicly?

I’d wish you’d spend as much time writing about your own mistakes about propping up Mr “I’m the worst sinner I know” Mahaney as you do your penance in advocating for victims of SGM.

You ask for money to do what the rest of us have done for free (or at their own expense-like Kris&Guy)-speak the truth in love to those who were bullied and lied to by the people you trained and propped up as godly men.

Brent, I am in no hurry to defend Josh, but neither am I in a hurry to throw him under the bus.

You said, “As a matter of fact, Harris knew about the long term serial sexual abuse of boys by Nathaniel Morales in August 2007. Morales even confessed his crimes to Grant Layman. Layman passed the information to Harris and the governing elders. It didn’t matter. Harris and his staff still conspired not to report Morales or involve law enforcement.”

Where is the evidence that validates this? I might have missed it in one of your posts.

Just Sayin’ that is the first time I have heard what you wrote, but it would not surprise me if true.

Kenneth and Robin said if Josh Harris confided to the congregation they would resign? Josh Harris said if he didn’t come clean with the congregation then he would have no choice but to resign? They ended the evening undecided. The next day Josh admitted there were contradictions between the previous statement and Grant’s testimony. He admitted to having been unsure himself of the facts. He admitted to having been sexually abused as a child. He was very emotionally distraught.

Jen

The above is what I think you were asking about what JustSaying posted. I remember hearing something like this with there being major conflict between Josh Harris and the other pastor/elders at CLC>.

This is sad if this is the case. With all that has been exposed about P.J. and then CLC elders deciding to keep such a questionable person as their Sr. Pastor. I wish I couldn’t say this but I really am not surprised. Money and trying to restore CLC to the attendance back in the old days apparently was more important that what the church claims to stand for.

Thank you. Perfectly articulated. 25 years on the A team. It has to be said in hope that one day the lightbulb will go off in his mind.

My hub made an interesting comment the other day. He said that when we were in shepherding, they harped about submission to authority, whether secular, the church, the home, the job. But in the constant talk about how delegated authorities had to be obeyed because the authority came from God, it was understood that the authority might be wrong but you submitted anyway and God would take care of you. A wife didn’t have to think hub was right, we didn’t have to agree with the laws, you didn’t have to think the pastor was right, but you submitted to the authority as an act of obedience to God.

What we have today in some circles is the concept that because of their position they are right and can’t be appealed to or questioned. Some of these end time apostles and prophets are presented as infallible within their sphere of ministry. You don’t submit because they have authority even if you think they are wrong, you submit and are not allowed to think they are wrong.

Hub decide to leave SGM when fresh PC grad came back and I asked him a question one day that was minor and procedural, and I was perfectly friendly to him. Nothing to be upset about, nothing to confront. He went to hub and said that by my very act of asking the question I implied that the pastors might possibly make a wrong decision and that shows lack of trust and I was a woman and why did I ask instead of hub.

Hub is a nice guy but laid it on thick that I am grown up and can ask a question all by myself, and PC grad sort of got upset again about the implication that pastors can be fallible. Hub decided that if this is what the PC produced he wanted out. The grad went on to become a pastor elsewhere.

I don’t think they were all like that, but some were. And when you have system where people have to regard pastors as essentially infallible and superior, it all falls apart when you get an Emerson visiting a whore, or a CJ throwing a tantrum and leaving. The whole system was flawed to the core. But we all know that, so I think I will stop and go read a book.

My condolences to CLC people. The elders are not even making PJ take time off to get counsel for his lies? He could have cried and said it was all so painful and traumatic and he is sorry and they would have accepted that and rescued the mess, but he never even said sorry. I don’t know how anybody can stay there now.

I am not religious in the least, but I have a close friend caught up in the CLC mess. My most significant concern from observation is that SGM makes for poor outcomes for launching children into adults – likely due to the isolated cult environment. A topic for another day.

In any event, my take on this is that Smyth is not the superstar they thought, and the membership rolls are not increasing. So what the elders rationalized in March of 2017 is no longer easily tolerated. This is a business, after all. However, the CLC brand is damaged, and there are some members who recognize this or rather prefer Smyth’s less controlling tendencies, so, out of fear of losing more members, CLC is stuck with a mediocre product who likely cannot recover from reputational loss by virtue of a notorious and perverse father. CLC should be figuring out what to do with that real estate as the last vestiges of the absurd cult of Mahaney will soon eclipse.

I don’t see things through a religious lens, so it is possible I am off the mark.

Jenn …and why would logic fall in to the equation? CLC is a lost cause.

If there are any followers of Christ left there that aren’t tone deaf to the Holy Spirit, leave! One thing that I’ve seen time and time again in my life is that once a person or church stops listening to the Holy Spirit, it just becomes a downward spiral.

In other interesting news, Rachel Dennholender continues to bang the drum on Sovereign Grace’s refusal to do anything … and the evangelical communities silence as well:

“Denhollander began her post, “When it’s in our own community — evangelicals,” by saying that the most powerful question she has ever been asked is: “Do you care? Do you care enough to do something about it?”

“And this is where we are perpetually stuck when it comes to abuse, or mishandling abuse, in our own communities. We all say we care. But when it costs, it suddenly doesn’t matter quite enough to bear the cost even of just speaking up,” Denhollander said.

“The test of how much we care is how we respond when we have to reckon with ‘our own.’ Because make no mistake, it is *most* painful when it is in my own community. It costs the most when we speak up against those closest to us. And yet it is within my own community that I am *most* accountable for how I respond,” she wrote.”

Rachael Denhollander is a strong and gifted victim’s advocate, and she has what I believe is a God-given ability to raise up an army of survivors, as she did with Larry Nassar. She is a survivor, a lawyer, and a Christ-follower most of all. She understands grace and justice, especially in terms of what that looks like in God’s perfect character. She is not going to back down. Rachael has counted the cost, put her hand to the plow, and she’s not looking back. “But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62

I thought it was worthwhile to copy and paste an excerpt from the article I linked above because it’s about predators which is what this whole discussion started out talking about from Kris’s original post here. Rachael’s comments are not in this excerpt.

Here’s the excerpt:
“Professor and writer Jen Zamzow wrote in Christianity Today that churches often try to handle sexual assault allegations internally, some pointing to 1 Corinthians 6:1-6 for justification. The biblical passage reads, “If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? … Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?”

Looking at context, sexual assault is not one of the “trivial cases” referred to in the passage, Zamzow writes.

“If we want the church to be a safe place of healing, we can’t afford to cover up the truth,” she wrote.

Basyle “Boz” Tchividjian, grandson of evangelical preacher Billy Graham, told Vice in August that some Christian groups promote ignorance among women about sex along with the view that men should be in authority, creating a “perfect storm” for abuse. Tchividjian founded GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian environment) in the early 2000s when he became concerned about pastors mishandling sexual abuse.

Often Tchividjian has seen pastors go to court on behalf of the perpetrator, not the victim, he told Vice.

Emily Joy, the #ChurchToo co-founder, wrote on her blog that teachings about gender roles and sexual purity can play a role in creating a space that allows abuse.

Pastors and others in leadership at churches should commit to reading the stories that are being shared, she wrote.

“Predatory men should be shaking in their boots. Victims are naming names and the moment is now.”

This really is a shame that CLC Leadership decided to keep PJ Smyth as their lead pastor when both Todd and Brent have given enough information to show that Smyth isn’t above reproach. I am sure there will be consequences for CLC just like there has and will continue to be consequences for how Sovereign Grace handled things with C.J. Mahaney and others.

If PJ Smyth is no longer above reproach and CLC Leaders choosing to disregard this then these leaders are clearly showing both their disregard for following God’s commands and a lack of faith that God will provide or find a way to handle possible reduced membership. The”way” to deal with reduced membership (and money coming in) might not be the pleasant but there will be a way.

Something really doesn’t seem right that CLC after having been at their location since the mid 90’s have such fixed building costs that they can’t afford a reduction in attendance and the associated reduction in contributions. This sounds when you hear stories about people living in a house for over 30 years and losing their house to foreclosure you just kind of wonder. Something seems a little off. One thing they did was decide to buy more property around Covenant Life Church which maybe CLC really couldn’t afford to do.

I do remember that CLC had a service where they celebrated paying off their debt and then sadly later they went back and incurred new debt. I am sure this was when C.J. Mahaney was still the Sr. Pastor there. Thus some of this is consequences of living beyond ones means and sadly not saving up for a rainy day.

Well payroll costs can be cut by layoffs. The layoffs though painful technically are much easier to do than mortgage payments and other building operating/maintenance costs (especially mortgage payments). Again I do know it can be hard to layoff people especially if they have done specialized work for CLC and would have a hard time finding similar paying employment if laid off but sometimes that unfortunately is what needs to be done. Companies sometimes have to do this though painful there also.

30 people in support staff certainly appears to be quite high for a church the size of CLC IMO.

I wonder if fears of having to lay off people was a major factor in deciding to keep Smyth. A shame if that was the main reason.

One thing interesting here is that if CLC has 30 people on support salary at an average loaded salary cost of $60K (reasonable assumption IMO) then CLC has an annual payroll of $1.8 M. This estimated annual payroll cost is around what CLC owes on their building (according to Brent’s comment).

and a mortgage BALANCE of around $1.7M (Payments on this should be significantly lower) though there also are operation and maintenance costs

Based on these estimates it is pretty obvious that payroll is a bigger issue that CLC has than it building.

In the past I have looked at the budget figures for Kingsway in Richmond VA and their situation is different. Kingsway’s building operating cost is quite a significant percentage of their operating budget. I am sure that became the case after a number of people left Kingsway due to a few issues with Gene Emerson.

“Rachael Denhollander is a strong and gifted victim’s advocate, and she has what I believe is a God-given ability to raise up an army of survivors, as she did with Larry Nassar. … She is not going to back down. Rachael has counted the cost, put her hand to the plow, and she’s not looking back.”

“Often the most discouraging and depressing moments for pastors come when those they have served depart or desert the church.”

Barf bucket time or what. Right now I could use a little Wilhelm snark.

I read your link. It isn’t entirely accurate to call it accountability to the local church, as in the idea of a congregational polity. It is about a pastor being open and accountable to a team of elders.

That actually is probably better than a one man pastor show that you can get in a lot of churches, as long as your elders are not just yes men. So people unfamiliar with the Harvey history of leaving his own church and elders won’t know how hypocritical this is. I haven’t read it obviously….perhaps he shares his terrible mistakes and apologizes?

To this day I find it mind boggling that somebody could speak at a conference devoted to biblical counseling, and talk about the suffering of pastors when people leave, when there were so many hurting and suffering sheep Dave was “over” in SGM who endured bungled leadership. Incredulous.

Somehow I don’t think he’s talking about the needy people who couldn’t contribute anything to the church. He’s talking about the leaders he’s groomed. In which case, who was serving and who was hired? I think it’s quite possible those who serve the pastor are often working more hours.

Did CLC end up changing their name after all (cf “eight bold moves”)? I am not a former CLC member, but I hope they are able to address their issues–primarily secrecy and hyper-authoritarianism–and persevere. My 35 years of experience at SGM has made me unable to set foot in a church except rarely, but still I love much of my experience and I love God’s people, wherever they are found. PJ seems likeable enough, more a corporate CEO than a pastor perhaps. If all is as has been speculated above, the elders have just mortally wounded their lead pastor without–metaphorically–killing him. As Jenn G wrote above it is not hard to see how this may be fatal to CLC, or Christ Church, or whatever they call themselves.

The pastors recommended changing the name of CLC to Christ Church Metro and joining Advance going into the March 4 Members Meeting. They planned to talk about those recommendations at the meeting and set a course for ratification votes by the members.

Those plans were tabled when Rachael Denhollander posted “Response to Sovereign Grace Churches” on March 1 and I posted “New & Indisputable Evidence Proves P.J. Smyth Knew All About Father’s Violent Beating of Boys – He & Pastors Continue to Deceive Covenant Life Church Despite My Appeals” on March 2. Instead, they did a carefully controlled Q & A. No comments or follow ups questions to answers were permitted.

During this time period, there were differences with P.J. that resulted in his firing on April 26. The decision was rescinded on Sunday.

Jen, I checked out that link and Rachael is speaking at a Presbyterian church. That is significant. This is not a secular speaking invitation. This is a reformed Presbyterian church. Here is the link to their church website: http://www.newcitygr.org/about/

Here is an excerpt from the bio on their church website about Rachael…

“A devout Christian, lawyer and teacher, Rachael has clearly and graciously challenged Christian institutions to live more faithfully as communities resistant to abuse and safe for survivors. What makes Rachael’s voice so compelling is her steadfast Gospel convictions and sharp intellect. While conveying hard truths, she holds to a hope that the way of Christ offers persons and systems a response to abuse through transparency, accountability, repair and freedom.”

Thank you LORD Jesus! I pray more churches invite her to speak. I pray the Church grows and grows in our response to abuse and our care for survivors. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

You sure can’t make this up. Wasn’t Harvey the one on the Sovereign Grace Board that led the board to call Brent’s documents “slander?” Harvey is pretty similar to C.J. Mahaney when you hear about some of the topics Mahaney talks about after Mahaney’s actions showed such a lack of integrity. Maybe it those who can’t do teach?

Harvey writing on this topic is just unreal. Maybe the Gospel Coalition can get Jim Bakker to write on sexual purity and how to be a prudent money manager as a leader of a Christian organization.

It is his private business to leave, in my opinion, and he doesn’t owe anybody an explanation. But, it isn’t his business to give talks about pastors suffering pain when people leave. Nor is it his business to write a book about pastors submitting to the local elders, unless the book contains a transparent repentant discussion of his own unsubmission. Since I don’t plan to read the book I guess I’ll wait for the Detwiler review, ha, which is sure to come.

Thanks for sharing the old thread. You also make good points that Harvey shouldn’t be teaching things that he didn’t practice himself especially when there hasn’t been any public repentance and/or sharing what he did wrong or supported that was wrong.

I agree/disagree with you that his departure is “his private business.”

If it was just plain getting tired of SGM and/or needed a change then it could be Harvey’s private business. The fact that CFC members “were asked to no discuss the situation” makes one think that there is more to this.

Sovereign Grace/Covenant Fellowship Church’s cult like controlling ways are both enabled by secrecy and regular members not knowing the real truth about a lot of things. Harvey’s departure appears to be another example of this.

“I am not a former CLC member, but I hope they are able to address their issues–primarily secrecy and hyper-authoritarianism–and persevere.”

Secrecy. Hyper-authoritarianism. This right here is CLC dysfunction in a nutshell.

CLC is in a free-fall, and reversing it is complicated by the fact that most of the members have an appalling lack of knowledge of what actually happens behind the scenes at our church. Secrecy is the air we breathe at CLC.

PJ got a big clap and verbal whoops on our recent Pastor Apology Sunday, but there were a lot of people with their hands in their lap and their mouths shut. Unfortunately, the vocal ones tend to carry the day, as demonstrated by Mark Mitchell’s remark later in the service that he “had no idea” of the level of support for PJ. I think if the members got the chance to vote, it might not be as conclusive.

Be that as it may, CLC members as a group simply have *no idea* what the man is really like. What kind of a boss is he in the day-to-day work of the church? How does he get along with his fellow pastors? How is he in a crisis? How does he treat those who disagree with him? How is he as a husband and father? Is he patient and loving toward church members who approach him for counsel? Etc. He might be spectacular in those roles, or he might be disturbingly deficient.

My point is that virtually all that most CLC members know about PJ is his pulpit presentation. He’s a high-energy man, and a skilled communicator who presents well. But he was not well-vetted by the pastors and there are lots of questions for those willing to wonder.

PJ got a big clap and verbal whoops on our recent Pastor Apology Sunday, but there were a lot of people with their hands in their lap and their mouths shut. Unfortunately, the vocal ones tend to carry the day, as demonstrated by Mark Mitchell’s remark later in the service that he “had no idea” of the level of support for PJ. I think if the members got the chance to vote, it might not be as conclusive.

To me this sounds like Mark Mitchell was hearing what he wanted to hear or wanted to believe vs. having to deal with a harsher reality that might require action.

Steve, no — I believe you are mistaken in that. Mark Mitchell actually looked a bit shaken, and he’s a pretty reserved guy. I think he was being entirely genuine with that remark and was truly caught off-guard by the vocal demonstrations for PJ.

When I said, “the vocal ones tend to carry the day,” that was what I was referring to — the impression of large-scale support that a group of vocal fans can create for their guy.

One, P.J. brazenly lied to the church when he denied having any knowledge of the criminal allegations against his father. In Zimbabwe, he even defended his father against the allegations, personally observed some of the violent beatings, and participated in trying to stop the legal proceedings against his father. He claims he can’t remember any of it! Total amnesia! Anyone who trust this man is crazy! And anyone who trust the CLC elders are crazy. They have knowingly supported and defended this outrageous deception.

Two, the CLC pastors retained Lars Liebeler to do an “independent” investigation of the conspiracy to commit and cover up the sexual abuse of children knowing full well it would be partial and prejudicial and result in the withholding of criminal evidence against perpetrators and conspirators.

There are so many other examples of deceit and treachery by the CLC pastors from 2004 forward to the present day. So much of it has been covered up.

Peach is absolutely right.

“CLC is in a free-fall, and reversing it is complicated by the fact that most of the members have an appalling lack of knowledge of what actually happens behind the scenes at our church. Secrecy is the air we breathe at CLC.”

For years now, CLC members have been lobbying for some form of accountability for the pastoral team, along with a greater measure of transparency. We’ve seen a bit of progress in return for our efforts, but nothing really substantive.

We soldier on, because we care about the wonderful people here. Church splits are terrible, and no one wants to go through that again.

I talked to an old friend a few years ago, who attends a smaller SGM church that I don’t think ever gets discussed here. She said she would never consider reading the blogs about SGM as it is all gossip and slander. I would assume she is typical, and if you have repeatedly been told it is sinful gossip and slander of course you would not read them.

I think it will take things like the editorial from the editor in chief at Christianity Today recently, or secular news, to get the attention of many well meaning but duped people. I would think PJ can now get away with his lies unless it becomes exposed in some way similar to God using Rachel D.

Nobody wants to go through a church split. But I would not want to listen to a sermon regularly from a man I know is so compromised. I would want to guard my soul from that sort of influence. Actually I would not want to be under the CLC elders either. But you have to do as you feel led by God. I think time will make it clear which way the church is headed.

Looks like folks are coming to the reality of another round of ground shaking events are on the horzion.
I would encourage CLC member’s to look to Heaven at Jesus and not, side to side of what the brethern responses maybe, at the moment.
Get your bearing from the Holy Spirit and let Him give you your resolve to stand in the Light.
Remmber Gideon had 300 out of 24000 in God’s plan, you dont need numbers, for God to do wonders.

Steve, no — I believe you are mistaken in that. Mark Mitchell actually looked a bit shaken, and he’s a pretty reserved guy. I think he was being entirely genuine with that remark and was truly caught off-guard by the vocal demonstrations for PJ.

Thanks for the clarification.

It is a shame if Mark was misled by this loud applause of perhaps a vocal minority.

I’m so grateful all of these posts are documented so we can simply refer back to the events as 5yrs reposted.

The CFC team knowingly violated the bylaws re: the removal of a pastor not fit for preaching. The bylaws required Harvey to step down. Jared gave a member only meeting where he deceptively attempted to posture the congregation that the bylaws were no longer accurate. Instead of handling the situation in the order and within the agreed upon bylaws which required Harvey to step down for a time, they chose to bulldoze and bully the members by sharing specific stories of how they had very recently counseled pastors with questionable family behavior. The bylaws were designed to care for the pastor to spend time with his family and care for them, not to punish Dave or threaten his job. Yet, they chose to be deceptive and said “all” the pastors were unanimous in their decision to let Dave continue to preach. Only, this was a lie. They were not all on board with this decision. It was clear which pastors did not agree. Meanwhile Mark Prater conducted his “listening to people tour” and lied to multiple members explaining that all the pastors were in agreement that Dave should continue to preach. And guess what? You got it. Dave continued to preach regardless of the bylaw.

From what I understand Dave’s family situation continued to decline and so did the pressure from the congregation. I was told that after a series of family meetings, that Dave was told to step down for a time to spend time caring for his family before returning to the pulpit. Apparently his best friend Mark Prater didn’t have Dave’s back any longer and sought to put Dave on pastoral watch and tightened accountability. Dave disagreed and felt Mark and others were kicking him under the bus. So Dave Ran4Hills. And so should everyone else.

The issue is not Dave or how to handle pastors with family issues. The issue is that the team knew the bylaws but when it came to Dave, they attempted to posture and manipulate the members that Dave was still going to preach.

One of the hardest things I ever had to do was to leave my church family at Sovereign Grace. I wanted to stay to “help the others”, but the Lord told me that’s His job. Five years later I am in a healthy church, still struggling with SGM stuff as family and close friends still go, but I’m doing much better spiritually.

Being obedient to the Lord is more important than my comfort or desires.

WIth regards to Harvey and the rest of these pastors, you have to remember one thing. They have NOTHING else in their lives to make a living from. This is why they keep going back to the till. Dave Harvey was a SECURITY GUARD for crying out loud before he became a pastor. Another SGM pastor sold copiers. Nothing wrong with either one of these jobs, but going back would be a SERIOUS pay cut and zero prestige. Leaving the ministry never crosses their mind,

For years now, CLC members have been lobbying for some form of accountability for the pastoral team, along with a greater measure of transparency. We’ve seen a bit of progress in return for our efforts, but nothing really substantive.

We soldier on, because we care about the wonderful people here. Church splits are terrible, and no one wants to go through that again.

Well one option if you are dissatisfied is to still attend but stop giving. I know at least one family that did that for a while before leaving. I doubt much really gets their attention except for decreased contributions coming in.

WIth regards to Harvey and the rest of these pastors, you have to remember one thing. They have NOTHING else in their lives to make a living from. This is why they keep going back to the till. Dave Harvey was a SECURITY GUARD for crying out loud before he became a pastor. Another SGM pastor sold copiers. Nothing wrong with either one of these jobs, but going back would be a SERIOUS pay cut and zero prestige. Leaving the ministry never crosses their mind,

Harvey was only able to get a job somewhere else in “the ministry” due to his having some theological degrees as I understand. Thus he is now employed at another church. You are correct that most other Sovereign Grace pastors don’t have the credentials to work in “the ministry” outside of Sovereign Grace.

Not being able to find a way to make a living (or if it meant a bid drop in income) makes most Sovereign Grace pastors much less likely to question etc.

With Harvey I wonder if he really should have remained in the ministry. On the other hand with a lot of these leaders I wonder if “the ministry” is now just their day job and they really don’t believe a lot of what they teach. It could be that they think what they teach doesn’t apply to them.

I know for a fact tha MP does not have any degree. He dropped out of college before getting his pharmacist degree. Eventually he worked for a big pharma company under the false pretense of having a degree. Moved up the corporate ladder always fearful that his deception would be found out. Took classes at Pgh. Theological Seminary but could not get a MDiv because of no undergraduate degree.MP was exempt from going to SGM Pastor’s College before planting the Pittsburgh church because he is the favored one. The Church never grew beyond 50+ attendees before he moved on to greener pastures at CFC. The rest of his upward climb is history although you never read about the Pgh. Church failures or the fact that they left the SGC fold. His SGC career only accentuates the positive aspects of his church career.

I’m tired of reading and hearing about MP’s deceptions and lies. He needs to go before God and make things right. Mark, I implore you to be the humble man of God that you project to others. Come out from your false image of niceness, humility, and rightousness and get real again. If $$$ and prestige are so important to you, go back to secular work and stop fleecing the flock to keep this pastoral cult afloat. I knew you once to be as genuine as you could be and a good friend but also someone that betrayed me to get ahead. Harvey also knows that experience first hand.

Brent wrote: “Two things are absolutely certain! One, P.J. brazenly lied to the church when he denied having any knowledge of the criminal allegations against his father…”

So PJ lied to the CLC pastors about his father. But does anyone really believe that the CLC pastors were completely honest with PJ about what they actually knew regarding the sexual abuse that had occurred, when they knew it, and how they tried to hide it and not report it to the police? Maybe PJ and the CLC pastors actually deserve each other in some weird sort of way? I just feel pain for those members/attendees who remain ignorantly trapped in this sinful mess.

Proffy – I have some empathy for Smyth. I was raised in a home with an incredibly abusive and narcissistic father as Smyth was, and for some odd reason i developed a maniacal urge at age 17 to get away from my father, no matter the hardships (unlike phony pastor athlete Mahaney,, I was a NCAA Division 1 athlete who attended university on scholarship). And there was no way I was going to follow in my father’s family business (as Smyth did), because if you do so you never really escape the abuse or establish an independent identity. But it is easy to be ensnared by father/narcissists, as you keep hoping for love and approval which never comes.

The problem lies when we become adults – and especially as an adult in a leadership position – you become accountable for the decisions you make. As emotionally difficult as it is, Smyth’s only way out was to make a clean break and denounce his father – having failed to do so earlier – he is in a tough spot now.

I view this CLC current state of affairs just as McKinsey consultant would when reviewing a troubled business. And I wouldn’t ignore the inputs of the everyday members, at least until the organization can coalesce around a sound strategic vision and way forward. Members are likely questioning how membership numbers can be maintained in the absence of Mahaney’s heavy cult control. I mean, once the ability of the pastors’ ability to manipulate, abuse and control diminishes, so goes the Stasi like spying via the care group network, the phenomena where talented women have no voice, and the pastor cult of personality (over largely poorly educated men). What is left? Well, a church and it’s leaders have to attract members by having value add to offer, and it has to be value beyond mindlessly spouting devotion to pastors, pinging on the virtues of home schooling while denigrating secular education, and pushing an archaic and frankly damaging notion of dating and sex. CLC members intuit that Smyth gives the place a shot at keeping the lights on, even with baggage. Retaining him maje a certain sort of sense for now. Divorces are expensive.

Of course, not being a religious guy whatsoever, I could be wrong about this. But I have been a secular observer for some time, and this is the way I see things. Religion should make people happier (hardly a compatible view with a cross centered, sin focused dogma), so I don’t wish anyone to be unhappy.

Why even bother with Mark Prater? He’s been lying and running over us little people for over 20 years in his descent to become an SGM overlord. The man is a hollow shell of empty words.

If I ran into him today I’d probably just start laughing…just to see his face contort to try and put on his mr nice guy act. He doesn’t deserve your pity in my opinion. He deserves to be ignored or mocked-because everything he has done in the last couple decades are nothing but a mockery of truth and friendship.

Just my 2 cents from someone who has learned that caring for this sort of person, is a waste of precious time.

I know for a fact tha MP does not have any degree. He dropped out of college before getting his pharmacist degree. Eventually he worked for a big pharma company under the false pretense of having a degree. Moved up the corporate ladder always fearful that his deception would be found out. Took classes at Pgh. Theological Seminary but could not get a MDiv because of no undergraduate degree.MP was exempt from going to SGM Pastor’s College before planting the Pittsburgh church because he is the favored one. The Church never grew beyond 50+ attendees before he moved on to greener pastures at CFC. The rest of his upward climb is history although you never read about the Pgh. Church failures or the fact that they left the SGC fold. His SGC career only accentuates the positive aspects of his church career.

This sure says something about Sovereign Grace Churches that they have a leader that was quite deceptive in his earlier days. I am assuming Mark Prater was being this deceptive about his not having a college degree at the same time he claimed to be a Christian and perhaps was part of Sovereign Grace? If so, that really shows how little integrity Mark Prater really has but then again C.J. Mahaney and others are sadly quite similar.

SGC is one big mass of swindlers with whom the Word calls us not to associate.

I’m sorry Trueblue if I sound heartless to your cry for repentance, forgive me, but I think nothing short of complete and utter brokenness will stop these men from causing so much pain and harm to others. I don’t think their eyes will be opened to their sin and they will repent. But who am I? To me it looks like they are going to hit a brick wall of brokenness when the time is up and God intervenes and brings them to a very painful consequence for their rebellion and idolatry.

Proffy- very interesting comment. I hadn’t thought of it before, but yes, it is questionable if the CLC elders gave PJ ( or New Frontiers) full disclosure. They may have blamed anything on CJ and the Looeyville gang though.

I care about a man who at one time was my best friend and accountability partner. Yes he has broken off any contact or relationship with me or my family. Not responding to wedding invitations and turning down my son’s repeated requests to officiate at his wedding. His daughter (paid administrator) not putting me through to her dad when I called to inform him that a mutual friend’s son was found dead in his college dorm room. (never called to consol her either) The last time I had contact with him was at Celebration at IUP and we had a time of reflection and reconciliation. Nothing negative.

When I did relate to him he struggled with ambition and vanity. He also recognized that his “niceness” was a part of his sin nature to mold himself into a person who others looked upon as the nice, humble, and competent leader. MP is a people pleaser to the nth. degree, especially to those who can help him gain upward mobility. I’m sure that tha area of his sin nature drives him today as well. It caused him to totally suck up to secular bosses, I was one of them, and to Harvey and Mahaney as well. I might add that Mark is a very capable person who most likely would have become a senior executive in our company. He’s that competent and comes off as the ideal person to be promoted to key positions.

If I were C.J. I would put make in the SGC leadership role. Trained to be executive material ie. negotiating, marketing, presentation skills, crisis management and containment, public relations, great appearance, well disciplined, etc. but a easy person to manipulate to do your will. Mark is a governor but not a visionary leader. He basically does what he is told. A true German soldier at heart. He is loyal to those who feed his ambition but throws those who no longer can help him under the bus. Me, musicman, Harvey, Jenn Grover, ….we have felt tha pain of the Praters.

By the way I’m not innocent either. I used and manipulated MP also. I hurt others along the way to impress Mark and to show my support for his ministry. I did nit heed the warnings of my wife and kids that I too was spiritually ambitious and losing my perspective and priorities. I was deceived and that’s why I’d love to see Mark see his deception and repent of what he and the SGC leadership has done to many of God’s people. Jesus would go after the stray sheep not ignore or invalidate them. In closing, I once shared a vision with Mark of a Church that was a haven for the poor, lost and afflicted. The drug addicts, the sexually abused, the needy and homeless, etc. Not many of those in SGC land.

I guess I’m pouring myself out on this blog. I feared what kind of records Mark and CFC kept on me to keep me from sharing what I have experienced.

I understand why Trueblue still wants to see repentance. It can be easy to forget that there was a reason we were friends with these people: we enjoyed what we thought was their friendship. Honestly, I have never experienced such confusion over friendships as I did during my time in SGM. Such maneuvering, such posturing, pressure to say the right things, read the right books, and be at the right meetings.

I recently heard a testimony from a couple who wanted to be a part of our church plant but circumstances did not permit. Those are genuinely, humble, God-fearing people. When I heard them tell of God’s faithfulness I was completely overwhelmed by the genuineness, humility, and love that can only come from spending time with God. Their knowledge of God is intimate, not manufactured from reading the latest from the Gospel Coalition authors. They did not quote authors, that I can remember, but they did speak of what God was doing and saying to them. That type of example makes me want to love God, more, and be more like Jesus. I am not knocking the discipline of reading, and I presume this couple does their share of reading, but knowledge puffs up. Moses was never more humbled than when he came down from Mt. Sinai. In SGM knowledge nd ambition supplanted relationship with God.

But the bottom line is that if Mark can’t even pretend to care about a group of people that uprooted families and careers and gave freely of their time, money, and more time. Why expect him to care once we have stopped giving of ourselves? He didn’t care to ever contact my family once after leaving Pittsburgh. We attended CLC for a while. He and Jill came to pastor’s conferences at CLC…but couldn’t be bothered to even return a phone call.

He just doesn’t care. Nice guy, enjoyed the Praters when wemarched to their tune, but once we dared to question or think for ourselves -well it was as if we never existed. I just don’t hold out any hope that he or Jill will ever care. I personally think it’s a waste of time.

I was told from a very reliable source that he is estranged from one of his adult daughters because she left his church a few years back. Apparently he doesn’t have anything to do with or his grandkids. What’s even more odd is that it sounds like his other daughters have estranged themselves from her as well. Odd because it seemed like they used to be so tight. I visited a church recently (unaffiliated with SGM) not far from Mark’s church and saw her (the estranged) and her family there. They looked happy and seemed to be doing well so it’s not like she left the faith, just his church. The whole thing just sounds very weird but very much aligned with the first hand stories Jenn, Musicman, and Trueblue have shared. I wonder if there is a pattern here with him that maybe he leads his churches the way he treats his closest friends and family??

Although she could have estranged herself from her family too. Who knows, maybe she’s smart? But it’s still odd especially since she was raised in that cultic system. She may actually be worthy of applause?

Musician, you might not be wrong but that does not alter my desire to see good for him. I don’t hold out hope for a restored relationship for myself as much as I would like to see the change for his own benefit.

Run4Hills, I cant tell you how much I hope you are wrong. That is an incredibly sad scenario to me.

:
I was told from a very reliable source that he is estranged from one of his adult daughters because she left his church a few years back. Apparently he doesn’t have anything to do with or his grandkids. What’s even more odd is that it sounds like his other daughters have estranged themselves from her as well. Odd because it seemed like they used to be so tight. I visited a church recently (unaffiliated with SGM) not far from Mark’s church and saw her (the estranged) and her family there. They looked happy and seemed to be doing well so it’s not like she left the faith, just his church. (portion deleted)

I wonder if there is a pattern here with him that maybe he leads his churches the way he treats his closest friends and family??

This certainly is sad. I Cor 13:1 tells what someone is like if they don’t have love. Reading this account it sounds like Mark Prater is more like noisy gong or clanging cymbal. I have seen supposed Christian leaders before where they didn’t care at all about a person except for what this leader could get out of this other person such as exploiting their talents etc.

It is one thing to break off friendships like when a person leaves Sovereign Grace but much worse to do this to a family member. I wonder if Mark Prater did this since he was so upset that his daughter would dare leave the “happiest place on earth?”

I just believe that there can be sin in our lives for which we have to be brought to utter brokenness before we’ll repent of it. That’s all I was saying in my last comment. Then there are other times when we feel conviction of our sin as we are sensitive to the work of the Holy Spirit convicting us and we more readily turn to repentance. I pray for brokenness for SGC at this point and pray that it would lead them to repentance. There is obviously a quenching of Holy Spirit that has occurred if It was present in their lives to begin with.

Here’s an excerpt from an article called “The Beauty of Brokenness” –
“There are three facets of the Christian life that are essential to revival: surrender, brokenness and repentance. Surrender is relinquishing control of our lives to God. Brokenness is the state of being in which we yield that control. Repentance is brokenness and surrender in action. Surrender, brokenness and repentance are character traits of people desperately desiring the Lord.”

I enjoyed some time out on my porch this morning, letting the Creator revive my soul with the sights and sounds of spring. King David must have had a morning like this in mind when he wrote,

“You visit the earth and water it; you greatly enrich it…You water its furrows abundantly, settling its ridges, softening it with showers, and blessing its growth…The pastures of the wilderness overflow, the hills gird themselves with joy, the meadows clothe themselves with flocks, the valleys deck themselves with grain, they shout and sing together for joy” (Psalm 65:9-13).

I hope you are able to hear and join in the creation’s praise of our great God today!

This Sunday we have the pleasure of honoring our moms. Assuming they would be blessed NOT to hear lots of church news on their special day, I’m going to pack a lot into this Friday update.

Advisory Committee

Last night PJ and the elders met to pray and talk together. It was a relaxed, productive meeting that helped us clarify and align expectations.

As I described on Sunday, PJ is still carefully deciding whether to re-engage as Lead Pastor. As such, the elders, along with PJ, have determined that having an Advisory Committee available to clarify issues and strengthen communication with each other would be helpful. We have asked Travis Earles, Ed Stockton, Michael Winn, Myung Yi, and a member of the Financial Advisory Committee (to be determined) to serve on this committee. We chose these men because of their proven leadership on other church committees and their familiarity with the situation these past few weeks. While prepared to take as much time as needed, they share a sense of urgency that these issues be resolved soon.

PJ and the elders are fully supportive of the Advisory Committee. We are sharing with them copies of Board meeting minutes as well as questions and comments submitted by members. I am personally indebted to these men for the sacrifices they are making on behalf of our church, and I look forward to updating you on their progress in next Friday’s update.

Input From Members

Over 70 members have submitted comments and questions for the elders since Monday. It’s evident that there are sharply differing perspectives and concerns. We are going to need some time to give these the thoughtful consideration they deserve. Also, we want to give members one more week to submit input before we decide, with the help of the Advisory Committee, the best time and format for addressing the issues you have raised. If you have not yet sent in comments or questions, click here.

If you missed last Sunday’s meeting, you have an opportunity to watch the full video tomorrow morning at the church from 10-11:30 AM (Discovery Land Video Room – #221). Some members of the Advisory Committee and elders will be on hand to answer questions afterwards.

Dave Brewer

This past Wednesday, Dave Brewer informed the Youth Ministry that he will be transitioning off staff in June in order to serve as Pastor of Family Ministries for a church in Howard County. As he stated in his email, this transition is not due to the current circumstances, but is an unexpected opportunity that has been developing for a number of months.

Dave has served Covenant Life as a pastor for 16 years. So many of us have been affected directly or indirectly by him and his family. The youth will be gathering together at 7 PM on Wednesday, May 23, to thank Dave for his ministry. If you have been personally affected and want to join, all are welcome!

All Leaders Summit – Tuesday, May 15

The events of the past two weeks have made me freshly grateful for the men and women who serve our church with their leadership gifts. And we need you more than ever! Please make plans to join us this coming Tuesday from 7-9 PM for our second “All Leaders Summit.” Whether or not you are currently serving as a leader, you are warmly invited to this interactive evening of reflections on the issues at hand combined with faith-fueling prayer. To make sure we have enough space and snacks, RSVP here to let us know you are coming.

Sunday Schedule

If you are planning to bring mothers or neighbors on Sunday, you will be relieved to know that we don’t have any surprise announcements in store. Ben Keeler will be leading us in worship while Sam and Becki Cox stay home and enjoy their brand new baby girl, Mabel Grace (above). Jose Troche will be continuing our series in the Gospel of John. All children and fathers will be on their best behavior. And King Jesus will be present among his people to strengthen, encourage, and bless.

Will PJ Smyth return as lead pastor? Will other pastors/ elders resign? Can the weakened leadership stand up to an uprising among the members? Will Advance / New Frontiers acquire CLC and its multi-million dollar assets? In the confusion will someone start revealing CLC / SGM secrets?

My second thought was there is a lot not said in the message. I assumed that some of that was due to the fact that Mark is addressing an audience presumably already familiar with the details. But then I smacked my forehead and said, wait, this is CLC….so I don’t really know. Maybe Mark is being refreshingly open. Or maybe his words are as cryptic to members as they are to us.

Do we know for certain that the firing and–now–reconsideration of that firing by the elders and PJ centers in fact on the issues Brent has raised in his posts? I do not doubt it, Brent’s research and sources are extensive and reliable, but there is evidently now a knowledge of sorts among the congregation that no doubt provide a context for Mark’s communication…is that yet common knowledge? Were any of you present at the meeting last Sunday?

The public explanation for his firing had nothing to do with his lying and deceit regarding his father. In private, however, the pastors know he lied and deceived in a major way. That must effect their confidence in him. Of course, the pastors are no better. They covered up his lies and deception with there own. I hope people in CLC make it an issue.

It is amazing. Yes he is being paid even though he is disengaged as lead pastor. For example, he hasn’t preached in 10 weeks.

The 17 pastors unanimously fired him on April 26 due to serious longstanding unresolved conflicts and disagreements. Now, P.J. is back in charge under pressure from vocal members who want to keep him, unlike the pastors.

So, if P.J. stays, will all the pastors have the integrity to leave? Or will they enable him and accommodate him and stay around for a paycheck (if he doesn’t fire them).

And will P.J. “reengage as Lead Pastor”? Yes, if at all possible. He wants the massive CLC bldg. and 40 acre property – he has referred to them as “just ridiculous – an astonishing place.”

If P.J. thinks CLC will join the global Advance movement which he leads, and if he can make changes to the CLC constitution that give him more power and authority to execute his agenda, and if he can get rid of staff he doesn’t want and hire whomever he does want, then he will stay.

The deciding factor will be whether he can successfully negotiate for more power. Rather than “first among equals,” P.J. wants “FIRST among equals.” Like Peter (which Peter John (P.J.) is not) was first among the apostles.

I’ve been told many members have serious concerns for his character. I know some are speaking up. I hope “New & Indisputable Evidence Proves P.J. Smyth Knew All About Father’s Violent Beating of Boys – He & Pastors Continue to Deceive Covenant Life Church Despite My Appeals” is gaining an audience.

Sorry to change the subject, but getting back to the topic of the thread. It occurred to me today that Don Shorey was recently a pastor at CFC (5-10 yrs). His adult son sexually abused girls while his father was still a serving pastor. He remained a pastor at CFC for awhile after this was known by the pastoral team. The pastoral team did not report any events to the authorities but instead sweep it under the rug. Don Shorey was eventually shown the door by Harvey, Prater, and the other good ol boys. Don Shorey starts his own church with another ex-pastor that was shown the door after challenging Harvey. Then this happens,

And it occurs to me, is there a statute of limitation in the state of Pennsylvania? It may be that the CFC sex abuse crimes have not reached this limitation yet. Is this why they stay silent, because the pastoral team never reported any events to local authorities?

Regardless of the limitations statute, this pastoral team could have prevented further sexual abuse from occurring to these innocent victims.

I know in New Frontiers supposedly apostles had more of a consulting role, and not an authoritarian one like with SGM. (You can find posts by disgruntled former members who will not agree.)

So what about Advance, what with PJ being an apostle (barf).

He got hired at CLC as a pastor, but a fellow pastor with the other pastors, or elders. (in the early church the word pastor and elder seem to have the same functional meaning, along with overseer and shepherd).

So, he wants CLC to join Advance, which would require a vote by members, correct? And once they join, he would be more than a fellow elder, he would be an apostle who would be over the other elders, right? Or maybe Advance does not function with apostolic authority the way SGM did?

So the CLC elders did not go along with PJ’s desired direction, ie joining Advance, and the apostolic position that would put PJ in? I would think after being so burned by the great Ceej, they probably had PTSD at the very thought. Good for them. Initially a good decision.

Do I understand this correctly? It sounds like the elders were doing the right thing and looking out for the church and what was best for the church. No Advance, no apostolic PJ.

What is the matter with the vocal PJ fans? I am reminded of a woman I know who divorced hubby after she was in the ER getting X rays. Dated loser #2, finally dumped him, dated creep #3 and saw the light-his terrible violent temper- before it got too serious. Ended up married with #4 who gets mad and yells for hours on end. There is a textbook name for this syndrome, of people who go from one abusive relationship to another to another. They can’t break the pattern for various reasons.

I pity the kids trapped in this mess, but the adults are responsible for their choices. They are not trapped in the wilderness with this the only church within traveling distance. This isn’t like pre Reformation days where every church was under the Pope and Rome. It isn’t like ex pats with only one English speaking church in a city. There are decent alternative local options. If PJ stays I can’t imagine submitting and staying.

In reference to my last post and to be perfectly clear, this is what I was recently told by more than one reliable source. Can anyone else prove or have any accurate insight into these CFC events? I hope I’m wrong!

And will P.J. “reengage as Lead Pastor”? Yes, if at all possible. He wants the massive CLC bldg. and 40 acre property – he has referred to them as “just ridiculous – an astonishing place.”

So what does P.J. really want with this building. If P.J. is a mediocre speaking pastor and can’t attract crowds what value will the building really be? Large buildings like this (even with minimal debt) still take a lot of money to run and maintain. If P/J. can’t attract the people and the contributions that come with larger attendances the building might even become a burden. Maybe P.J. could bring in another speaking pastor that could better increase the attendance?

Also the area CLC’s building is in is a transitioning area from what I have heard.

If P.J. remains and get the group to join New Frontiers do you think he would try and have the building sold to raise money for New Frontiers?

@Brent, I think you may be mistaken in a few things. For one thing, the pastors were not unanimous in the decision to fire P.J. (This is perhaps what Robin meant when he said that the pastors were not “monolithic.”) For another thing, most concerns about P.J. among the congregation are along the lines of his polity regarding pastoral authority, congregational role and similar matters (such as the need for lay elders.) Most discussion is not of “serious concern for (P.J.’s) character.”
Finally, you question if “all the pastors will have the integrity to leave” or “stay for a paycheck.” so I assume you are not referring to lay pastors. CLC is running out of paid pastors, it seems, month by month.
I am guessing nine will become half as many soon enough.
It is hard for me to leave this post without saying that I am no longer a member, but still well enough connected due to long friendships in the church (including ppl who contact you, Brent) — and that I am not so cynical of the motives of these pastors as you are. I do not agree with their vision of the role of a pastor and I am grieved at the stiffness of their necks when it comes to listening to the congregation. But I sincerely doubt that any of them would have endured the turmoil of these last years just for a paycheck.
I certainly would not.

@Brent, I think you may be mistaken in a few things. For one thing, the pastors were not unanimous in the decision to fire P.J. (This is perhaps what Robin meant when he said that the pastors were not “monolithic.”) For another thing, most concerns about P.J. among the congregation are along the lines of his polity regarding pastoral authority, congregational role and similar matters (such as the need for lay elders.) Most discussion is not of “serious concern for (P.J.’s) character.”
Finally, you question if “all the pastors will have the integrity to leave” or “stay for a paycheck.” so I assume you are not referring to lay pastors. CLC is running out of paid pastors, it seems, month by month.
I am guessing nine will become half as many soon enough.
It is hard for me to leave this post without saying that I am no longer a member, but still well enough connected due to long friendships in the church (including ppl who contact you, Brent) — and that I am not so cynical of the motives of these pastors as you are. I do not agree with their vision of the role of a pastor and I am grieved at the stiffness of their necks when it comes to listening to the congregation. But I sincerely doubt that any of them would have endured the turmoil of these last years just for a paycheck.
I certainly would not.

Along with 5Years I agree that this is so sad. A shame these leaders don’t realize that their not reporting something like this allows the perpetrator to continue like with Nathaniel Morales.

The other sad thing according what you posted is the nepotism going on here. Sadly we have heard at least some reports of leaders’ children doing similar actions and nothing being done to stop these actions.

I have not been able to find a website for the church you indicate Don Shorey is now a pastor at.

Is Joel Shorey who shows up now as a pastor at CFC related to Don Shorey? I would assume so since “Shorey” is a pretty unique last name. What about Tim Shorey whose name I also see as a regional leader.

I am seeing a lot of “Shoreys” which has always been one issue the nepotism within SGM.

Steve — Joel Shorey is a pastor at CovFel. His father is Tim Shorey, the lead pastor at Risen Hope Church, which was sent out by CovFel and is in the eastern part of Delaware County. CovFel is in the western part of the County. Don Shorey is the brother of Tim and the uncle of Joel. He used to be a pastor at CovFel; left several years ago. Don’s location is unknown to me.

Oswald and OutThere thanks for the information on the Shoreys. It is very sad if Adam Donald Shorey who is reported to be Don Shorey’s son did similar actions there were unreported at CFC that he did later at other churches. I am surprised Adam Shorey was able to get away with only probation.

Remnant – that was something that occurred to me, too. When Peach said Mark M. looked shaken when people expressed support for PJ, I wondered if it was because he feared for his own job if PJ remained. Who is actually in charge? If the entire pastoral staff can’t remove PJ, then that means they are not in charge, someone else is.

Subject change…Regarding the Shoreys – was Grace Fellowship Church an SGM church? I thought it was interesting that in addition to the victims and their parents, the Judge ordered Adam Shorey to stay away from the church.

And unless Don Shorey was complicit in any way, or withheld information about his son, I don’t understand why he would be held responsible for his adult son’s behavior. At another Church. And yes, I understand that was SGM policy, I just mean I never understood the policy. Was he actually forced out, or did he just leave on his own?

There have already been many small meetings of members planning to force this crisis to a conclusion. A large congregational meeting could be organized by the members without the permission of elders. There are many unconfirmed rumors of various unpaid elders and paid pastors resigning. PJ was present this Sunday without preaching, but several pastors and elders were notably absent.

OutThere — Grace Fellowship church was not part of SGM. It was started by Don Shorey and Joe McMullin; both former pastors from CovFel. Don Shorey left CovFel abruptly without much of an explanation. Joe McMullin had been sent out to plant a church somewhere in midwest, maybe Ohio. It was told by Harvey that Joe felt ‘not cut out for midwest or anywhere NOT Philadelphia area’, but would be planting another church ‘sometime soon’ as would come into being. Both men’s departures seemed a little shady. Soon it was rumored that Don and Joe had joined forces to start a new church not very far from CovFel. Neither man was mentioned at CovFel after that, as far as I know. And that’s all there was to that. I guess no one really asked and we were not really told any more. I have been out of there since 2012.

Reading the posts above (as I have for some years now, on and off) I see my own experience mirrored in many ways. I was in SGM/ PDI for 30+ years. I knew the often glorious experience of worship and fellowship that was common in the early days. There were times it seemed like we drew near to the Holy Mountain and saw with our spirits the encampment of angels. I remember the billowy freedom of nearly utter transparency with others; no secrets, no hidden guilt.

The loss of this was slow and nearly unnoticeable over time. The loveliness of charismatic worship was replaced by a kind of entertainment from the stage. At national conferences, where once teaching and prophecy would exert a powerful transforming effect upon many of us, the worship leader would pray and prophesy alone, and then respond to his own prophecy while the congregation watched and mouthed words to the songs. Sunday mornings followed suit, the oft-quoted “nothing is more important than the weekly preached Word” turning the songs themselves into forms of sung creeds that required explanation from the leader, transforming the time of once-heartfelt worship into another teaching venue.

A close friend in leadership was pushed beyond his faith by his overseers and then abandoned at the time of his inevitable collapse. He has never recovered. Church planters whom I knew were removed from their roles as leaders of those churches and sent out to pasture–often with no training or experience to allow them to find secular jobs, with little support from those who replaced them and often no real explanation to either them or the congregations they led–beyond vague sins perceived by regional leaders, like “pride”. All over SGM we were the proverbial frogs set in a pot of water as the heat is turned up so we don’t notice the boiling-point as it nears.

Then came 2011. “Brent’s documents” were never the problem, it was their truth. And an initial hopeful impetus to reflection and self-critique by CJ and the CLC leadership in the wake of their release was swallowed up in a tide of cover-up, retreat, misdirection, foolhardy “outside evaluations”; then church splits, recrimination, purges. These practices held in the shadows without public accountability are precisely the same as undertaken by most worldly governments and corporations who are threatened from within. These are, simply said, not God’s ways. This lesson has yet to be learned by CLC and other churches, both current and former SGM.

I left the SGM church to which I belonged in 2013 when I accepted a job across the country, the church having left SGM before that. I was unprepared for my response to visiting churches out here, none of whom had any relationship to SGM. There must be a catalog of “pastor fashion”, complete with hairstyles, glasses, silk pullover shirts, John 3:16 tattoos, headset mics, etc, here in California. Evangelism seems to be conflated with the image that the church presents to the “visitor”. The songs come straight out of Christian radio, every single one with a mindless repetitive inner chorus…I am sickened by it, viscerally turned off to a point where I have had to leave in the middle of the services. It slowly dawned upon me that I was experiencing a kind of PTSD, recognizing much of what had formed my ecclesial past on some visceral level, one for which I was unprepared and for which I had (and to some degree still have) no explanation.

My family are hurting, especially my daughters, who under the separate-but-equal guise of “complementarianism” were often actively discouraged from developing their gifts as they grew up. Women were for marriage and household management, perhaps a place in the marketplace at need, but not for visible roles in the church. This was no distinction to them as we as a family centered our lives around the church and its activities. This has no doubt changed since they were growing up, but not then. I am deeply grieved and ashamed at my own complicity in their wounding.

Since we have moved to Northern California from SoCal, I have found I can occasionally attend Episcopalian services, with the soothing ancient rhythms of its liturgy, and there is a small Pentecostal church nearby in which, despite the theological twisting and turning to a degree I once would have found unacceptable, I find no trace of the harmful authoritarian abuse that I knew for years, and I occasionally find glimpses of what I once knew in corporate worship. Even in these venues I am brought nose-to-nose with my own failure and the large portion of my life I spent in pursuit of something which, if not a cult, is very close to it, and I can attend only very rarely. My wife does not go with me. “We are retired from church life, ” she says.

I consider my former pastor a close friend as well as others I have known and loved. I have forgiven CJ and SGM to the best of my ability. I am grateful to Brent for his dedication and unrequited love for the movement and churches he once oversaw. I walk with God and enjoy his undeserved friendship and grace. My family have forgiven me, though it seems I have not yet forgiven myself.

When I search my experience for some link between it and my inner state I am often brought up short. I can only conclude I must remain in a deep state of denial. I have been looking for some sort of catharsis, I think, which I may not find. I will settle for a journey instead. Thanks for letting me post.

Ian MacAgy says:
May 13, 2018 at 11:30 pm
Reading the posts above (as I have for some years now, on and off) I see my own experience mirrored in many ways. I was in SGM/ PDI for 30+ years. I knew the often-glorious experience of worship and fellowship that was common in the early days. There were times it seemed like we drew near to the Holy Mountain and saw with our spirits the encampment of angels. I remember the billowy freedom of nearly utter transparency with others; no secrets, no hidden guilt.
This is part of IanMAcAgy post above:
My post below:

Dear family of Ian MacAgy:
I /We Pray to the Lord God of Heaven and Earth, that you/family would be led out of the wilderness and in to the Land of milk and honey and to find a congregation that the Almighty Himself can heal and restore what the canker worm, has eaten, that what the rust as destroyed, and walk with Him by the Holy Spirit and with His true congregation to be a true witness on the earth, until His Glorious return.
For my heart goes out to you. For many have shared their hearts and souls on this site, and it’s kind of a public place to let folks know what and how they/we are doing.
As I have shared in other postings, of repentance and return to the ways of the Almighty, not only the leadership both past and present of GOB/CLC/SGM/SGC etc., but as well to the congregations, to see their role in the (fix) by returning and coming under the true authority in which is Jesus Christ alone and His Word. I understand the placement of the Church in which His body is both individually, and corporate body as defined in the scriptures.
But were seeing a sifting, from the description and evidence in your last post, of the true fruit of reality as being seen, by not only those in the Body of Christ, but also in the world outside the church.
Evidenced by all the current news reports, and public press (of the things done in secret from 2006-2018) and being shouted on top of the house tops. When you as a church/a movement/ denomination/congregation make a clam “you are HIS” The Lord Him self will be jealous over you. And HIS NAME IS ON YOU! So, when you walk disorderly and part from His ways, He will come to you alone, IF you do not listen to His Holy Spirit, then He will bring two or three to you, hoping for repentance and changes as outline in His Word. Then if not He will Bring it to the congregation. IF you still harden your neck and heart, with His love allow it to be seen and judged without the congregation and in to the world. Matt 18:15-17 This has been a tri-decade process, God’s Name will not be mocked, (in the church) and as He reveals Him self in the End days (the world)
I know it’s a principle in scripture, for in relationships in the body of Christ, but the instructions do come from the Most High Himself.
God Him self will NOT tolerate hypocrisy Matt 23:28 So are ye also: for outward ye appear righteous unto men, but within ye are FULL of Hypocrisy and INIQUITY!
This is the bottom line: repent and allow the Holy Spirit to Build HIS church.
As Jesus words thru John in the book of Revelation to the seven churches, I plead with you (CLC SGM SGC) read the scriptures and see If the Holy Spirit points out which one of the seven churches are you and your congregation is at the moment.
Let His evaluation be the test, to see if you are on the Rock or on the sand.
Matt7:12-28 (KJV) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law (instructions) and the prophets.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
Therefore, whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And everyone that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Then came 2011. “Brent’s documents” were never the problem, it was their truth. And an initial hopeful impetus to reflection and self-critique by CJ and the CLC leadership in the wake of their release was swallowed up in a tide of cover-up, retreat, misdirection, foolhardy “outside evaluations”; then church splits, recrimination, purges. These practices held in the shadows without public accountability are precisely the same as undertaken by most worldly governments and corporations who are threatened from within. These are, simply said, not God’s ways. This lesson has yet to be learned by CLC and other churches, both current and former SGM.

This is really sad but true. Initially it seemed like CLC was the church whose leaders were pushing for confession and repentance and they did leave Sovereign Grace but full confession and repentance was never fully there. Sadly they appear to be now reaping this lack of full confession and repentance.

I imagine within CLC leadership you have different views and actions depending where they are in their career. The older leaders are probably just trying to stick around until they can retire since I am sure they don’t have any other options to make a comparable income until they can retire. The leaders that are younger may have different motivations.

P.J. doesn’t want to re-engage as lead pastor. Mere lead pastor? No no no.

He wants to be instituted as Head Apostle.

He will fire all the current pastors and elders who stood against him and install a group of cronies. C.J. wash, rinse, repeat.

That is sad but it wouldn’t really surprise me if this happens. Fire those who question or have different viewpoints.

“The situation at CLC is becoming an even bigger deal.” Yes it is. Bo Lotinsky, my college roommate, best man in my wedding, former Executive Director for SGM, and Chairman of the Covenant Life Board of Directors, just resigned.

Dave Brewer, a staff pastor, is also leaving in June for a new job. Greg Somerville is leaving in August to start a business (so I am told).

In 2014, CLC had 21 full-time pastors. They will be down to seven and I doubt that is the end of the exodus. In addition, Smyth wants to remove at least 4 non-staff pastors if he gets his way.

Brent, that is amazing news. I would have thought that the powers that be there would not have been so obvious in cutting out those who dared to raise their heads above the crowd to say the emperor has no clothes. I mean, I would think that this lack of subtlety would finally wake up those who are still slumbering, or still not seeing what’s going on. We’ll see.

You folks either give Drew too much credit, or too much influence over your own thinking. Not sure why his/her posts get under everyone’s skin.

Anyway, Brent….. at this point in your life do you think there is a benefit to an eldership that has about 50% of them “unpaid”? I would think that more “lay elders” may help with more objective thinking because there is less temptation to be fearful over the income dropping. SGM always seemed secretive…. with all the elders on the payroll and members knowing very little. Obviously, anyone can play politics or lie….. but the more the congregation is involved I would think you would get more wisdom. I am curious to know how your thinking has evolved these last few years.

Although I agree with this statement from you, “SGM always seemed secretive…. with all the elders on the payroll and members knowing very little. ”, I get the sense that you maybe throwing a pick here for SGM just like Drew may be.

May I remind you that the topic of this thread is “A Theory Of Why Sovereign Grace Churches Seemed To Side With Perpetrators”

As far as whether pastors should be paid. Sorry but in the context of what is happening here, who cares?

Marlton,
I think the leadership of these churches resigning and falling apart is valid to this thread as it’s the SGM leadership that created such pervasive environments for child predators.

PJ has to be here on a work visa. Who is sponsoring his visa? Is it CLC, or is it Advance in the US? If it’s Advance, I am sure they want him here. If it’s CLC, I wonder if they can call immigration or the State Department and have his Visa revoked if they no longer want him?

In the last 24 hrs. I have begun to rethink my position on Brent. He has apologized, has apparently sought out ex members who might have been hurt by his role in SGM, I’m actually good with letting bygones be bygones.
Brent is good with me.

Brent is posting private emails without the permission of the person he communicated with, regarding his strong opinion that this person should be confronting and rebuking PJ Smyth and her CLC pastors.

Are you kidding me? Are you freaking kidding me? I asked a simple question back in my PDI days- non confrontative, non critical- and my husband was informed that I should get him to ask the simple question of the pastors because I am a woman. He was also informed by this fresh out of the PC, SGM worshipping young man, that to ask a question implies the pastors could make a mistake. It implies mistrust. It implies they could be wrong about a decision.

Seriously Brent? You were one of the founding apostles for 25 years promoting this leader worshipping, leaders on pedestals, shepherding movement crap that was probably stuffed down Erin’s throat from the day she set foot in CLC. Your own secretary Kim says there was a climate of fear and control and legalism in your own church. You were an apostle for 25 years and you are criticizing Erin for being deluded?

Seriously? If this gal had ever confronted YOU, you would have slammed her over the head with your long list of the signs of pride and how proud she was to confront an apostle. And a woman rebuking and confronting her church pastors? Really?? Really?? A woman?? You are telling her to do something that was stomped on in PDI/SGM and you know it? A woman go rebuke the pastors???

That post about Erin is sickening. WHY WHY WHY does she trust her leaders, believe the best of her leaders, refuse to question her leaders, and want to submit whole heartedly to pastoral authority? Why? Where does that leader worshipping mentality come from? Who wrote the paper on apostles and apostolic authority???? Who spent 25 years shoving shepherding doctrine down everybody’s throat in SGM as a founding apostle??

You have NEVER apologized for your part in the pathological sickness of what SGM was. NEVER.

This is revolting, really. I’ve been trying to bend over backwards and give Brent a chance, but this is way over the top. Erin was gracious and nice enough to email with somebody who the churches were told to ignore. She didn’t ignore Brent, she interacted with grace and honestly. And yeah, I think she is deluded about her CLC leaders, but again, where did that mentality of the leaders being right all the time come from? What influence did the apostles have?

Give it a rest Brent. Get help. Your bitterness and criticism towards this woman is too much.

Please do not come on here and divulge private emails and smear people who have done NOTHING wrong but adhere to the teachings YOU shoved down their throats for 25 years.

Brent must not have too much to do if he seeks to contact CLC members to spread his poison and then deceives himself with the thought that he is doing some good to the body of Christ when in reality he is serving the devil to bring discouragement, disappointment, and hate. Obviously, there is no fear of God in him at all. Shame on you Brent.

5yearsinPDI. Your abusive ways rival anything in SGM or the shepherding movement in the 70’s. And while we were influenced by the movement, we did not buy into the movement. In fact, we were critical of it. No one was “shoving shepherding doctrine down everybody’s throat.” Your false characterizations are so misleading. That doesn’t mean there weren’t abuses of authority.

As I’ve illustrated many times over the years, you are the one guilty of “shepherding doctrine.” By that I mean, mistreatment and heavy handedness of the worse kind, as is evident above.

Furthermore, time after time, you have made up false charges against me. For instance, you refer to Kim again. People can read my post, Res Ipsa, if they want to know the truth.

And that doesn’t mean I was not guilty of some legalism. People can read “What About My Sins” for one of my apologies you claim doesn’t exist. And Drew is correct, I sought out people on this blog and asked them to contact me if any thought I sinned against them.

People can judge us on how you relate to me and I relate to you. The same is true in how I corresponded with Erin. This is the same way I have sought to relate to people since I became a pastor 40 years ago. It is just wrong for you to hurl insults like this one. “If this gal had ever confronted YOU, you would have slammed her over the head with your long list of the signs of pride and how proud she was to confront an apostle.”

I don’t think Erin was “gracious and nice” (people can judge) but I am not bitter toward her. I wrote the post to illustrate the indifference of most Covenant Life members to the extraordinary deceit of P.J. Smyth and the pastors. I am concerned, however, you are bitter at me. Others on this blog have brought that same observation to you.

If history is a guide (and I hope it isn’t) you will continue to rail against me. I will not be responding in kind. I am praying for you. I still hope you will talk to me.

Hello, old friends. I’ve spent the last couple of hours catching up after a long hiatus from Survivors. I am very happy to report that I rarely think of SGM anymore, though several years ago, I rarely thought of anything else.

Kris’ point that the sex abuse cases are symptoms of the major problems of SGM is well taken. The situation reminds me a little of the book/movie “The Firm.” If you remember, the law firm was totally corrupt, and had committed many sins and crimes, but what actually nailed them was the charge of mail fraud.

In the same way, I believe that SGM’s horrific spiritual & emotional abuses of people will not be the issue that brings them down, for spiritual abuse is not against the law, though it is disgusting and reprehensible and does lead to illegal activities. But the sex abuse cases have legal teeth. This horrific symptom must be addressed, and that is what will be the death knell.

As someone who has healed and been set free, it’s hard for me to grasp that SoverUngrace still continues to hurt people. I hope it will be sooner rather than later that all former participants in the cult-like activities of SGM are healed.

Ian, thanks so much for your comments. You and your family are important to me, and I will pray. We still pray for the healing of SW.

With much love and respect for those of you I know only through your monikers, plus those I know in person and enjoy interacting through facebook and private interaction — and to all of you, especially Kris and Guy, thank you for helping me through the journey. –Nickname

I admit I was unsettled with Brent’s posting, since I didn’t know the correspondant and it did not appear that she was either a leader or someone taking a public stand. Brent could have posted the emails without her name…

Aside from that, the posting is not news. This is the kind of thinking that has always greeted anyone with a sound complaint about leadership. It existed 20-30 years ago, and apparently it exists today. This is why cults continue to exist – people are willing to hand over personal accountability in the name of humility. I finally changed when I thought about dying, standing before God, and having him ask, “So why did you continue to (fill in the blank)?” The answer, “Because CJ said it was okay…?” suddenly didn’t sound like a good answer, especially since I was a parent and I know that answer would not fly if it came from one of my kids.

I’m reminded of the joke everyone here probably knows about the drowning guy who prays to God to be rescued. A row boat, a helicopter, and a motorboat come by and try to help him, but he refuses each time because he insists he has faith that God is going to help him. When he dies and meets God face to face, he asks why God didn’t save him. God says, “What do you mean? I sent you a row boat, a helicopter, and a motorboat.”

Hello Brent:
A few thoughts:
I have 3 questions for you, if I may.
In your last post on this site, you mention, the word “apostle”, could you for my edification, please define that term as defined, in the scriptures?

Could you for the moment refrain from using, theological definitions, other than out of scriptures them self’s please.

Has, your scriptural understandings, changed from the time you came to (GOB then to CLC time frame) from well over 40 years ago, to present?

For even in CLC leadership early 90’s from the pulpit, there were made statements, and proclamations, and requests, to throw away “all old tapes” of sermons of the of the last 20 years or so from (GOB CLC early years, time frame), for our current (CLC) understanding, and authority, of leadership’s view, is the valid, and authorized view, one of the manifestations of this mentality, was reflected by CJ’s push for (the authorized book store at the time), for he himself made remarks, of not having to go the (to other Christian book stores outside of CLC influence) everything you need is right here!

So, it seems that you had a profound, foundational, influence, on the leadership in those early years, or do you think looking back, is there anything you would have done differently, if not, why not?

I say this with all respect to you, and anyone who speaks publicly, and with history of documented sermons. If you were not a major player in the foundational role of (GOB CLC), who was? As you do qualify and state, you are a “apostle”.

I do want to kindly remind you, and anyone, who speaks, or writes, or publishes, has also to be open, to be tested, and proved, and examined, as stated in the scriptures.

While I/ our family was in CLC for 13 years, any “Testing or Proving” was at least, in the end of our membership time, was looked upon as “out of order”? Or need of” adjustment” in attitude? or a” bad heart issue”? as I have posted earlier in this thread. This seemed to be the collective view of leadership while we were in CLC. And it was/and is your definitions, as leaders of (GOB CLC SGM SGC).
The history of (SGMS) Blog bares out my statements both past and present.
Please review the following scriptures: the word “prove” is in the following verses. (KJV)
Deut: 8:2
Psa: 26:2
Rom: 12:2
2Cor: 13:5
Gal: 6:4
1Th: 5:21
For we, have all have our cross to bear in this life, as to the definition of laying our lives down, for the Gospels sake, and for the brethren in the body of Christ. But it has to be done in the light, with sincerity, and truth.
I will say that only the Lord Himself, only truly knows the heart, but we are looking form the outside in can only judge the fruit. I write this with all sincerity and truth and if I’m in error, please let me know.
11 These were also more noble men than they which were at Thessalonica, which received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I was not a part of TAB or GOB. I moved to CLC in 1982. My doctrine is found in the Sovereign Grace Statement of Faith. It has not changed. Apostles are men called to plant and build churches with the gospel (e.g., 1 Cor 3:10-15). My understanding of pastoral ministry is found in “Exercising Oversight but Not Lording It Over” on my blog.

You seem to have evaded my main point, which is that Erin is responding to her leaders in the exact way she was taught by SGM to respond. Trust, believe the best, submit, stay away from “gossip”. And as a woman you never confront a male leader. You call her indifferent? You supported and enforced a pastor worshipping, pastor on pedestal system for 25 years. You created the Erins. Criticizing pastors was forbidden.

You refer to her honest interaction as “hate speech”, which is slandering her, and fail to admit that you spent 25 years trying hard to enforce an entire denomination of faithful people who would submit without question to pastoral and apostolic authority.

You turn around and start blaming the person criticizing you as abusive and bitter. Vintage SGM.

This quote from you blows my mind.

“….the shepherding movement in the 70’s. And while we were influenced by the movement, we did not buy into the movement. In fact, we were critical of it. No one was “shoving shepherding doctrine down everybody’s throat.”

You deny SGM was shepherding doctrine and practice. You are either blind or deluded or playing some weird game with semantics or lying. I hope it is merely delusion.

If anything, SGM was worse than 70s shepherding. With the latter one had to submit to pastors as God’s delegated authority even if you thought they were wrong. You trusted God to take care of you while submitting to a pastor you thought was wrong.

With SGM, you were not even permitted to think the pastor was wrong. SGM pastors had a special ability to see your sin that you did not see- they took the place of the convicting Holy Spirit. They also took the place of the Holy Spirit in many other ways, but it has been discussed at length already and I don’t feel like banging my head against a wall trying to explain it one more time. The priesthood of all believers became not just elders ruling the church, but elders usurping the personal role of the Holy Spirit in a person’s life. Not always, and not with all of them, but it was significantly there. And it was enforced from the top down by the A team.

Yes, people can read and decide for themselves what to think about you or anybody else. What you call “railing at you” in this case, is a defense of somebody whose private correspondence you post without permission, label hate speech, and fail to admit reflects the very system you spent 25 years promoting. You wonder why people don’t want to contact you- you do not understand the meaning of confidential.

I will end with a quote from Outthere up above:

Brent could have posted the emails without her name…

Aside from that, the posting is not news. This is the kind of thinking that has always greeted anyone with a sound complaint about leadership. It existed 20-30 years ago, and apparently it exists today. This is why cults continue to exist – people are willing to hand over personal accountability in the name of humility.

“If anything, SGM was worse than 70s shepherding. With the latter one had to submit to pastors as God’s delegated authority even if you thought they were wrong. You trusted God to take care of you while submitting to a pastor you thought was wrong.”

This is another one of those examples when you are entirely wrong. The shepherding movement taught submission to authority (following Watchman Nee) even if you thought they were morally wrong. We did not. I taught against that error from the very beginning of SGM.

Erin’s response had nothing to do with the reasons you give. It had to do with a faulty theological construct about the sovereignty of God and human responsibility resulting in an ungodly passivity and indifference.

Brent – I don’t disagree with your characterization of the substance of the email writer’s email, but you did not dispel the notion that you taught a type of obedience to leaders that required following even if we considered the leaders to be wrong (just not “morally” wrong). But maybe I misunderstood your statement…?

Obedience to those in authority is taught in Scripture. For example, in the home, church, society, and workplace. Sometimes, however, obedience is not possible because it violates one’s conscience, civil law, or Scripture. For example, when the CLC/SGM pastors counseled victims not to report their abuse to law enforcement.

Generally, we yield obedience to those in authority as Scripture commands. That doesn’t mean we don’t appeal or disagree with decisions they make that we think are unwise. If those decisions, however, are sinful and fall into the categories above, we can’t obey. Like the apostles in Jerusalem who were commanded to stop preaching the gospel. But that is very different than not following the ordinary directives of those in God ordained positions of authority due to preference or a lack of submission.

Whether to obey, defer, or disobey those in authority depends on the specific issues at hand. In general, however, Scripture encourages submission and obedience to those in authority.

“I remain deeply disappointed at the missed opportunity for meaningful reform at the University. My choice to come forward publicly against Larry, and later against the institutions that allowed him to prey on children for decades, was motivated by the need for accountability and reform, so that other little children don’t live the nightmares we lived. This is a passion all of the Sister Survivors share, and one which has not diminished or changed. “Moving forward”, for myself and many others, means continuing to advocate, call for accountability, and stand for those who have yet to have a voice. This includes continuing to advocate for desperately needed accountability and change at USAG and in the USOC. I remain disappointed that resolution was not reached with these other organizations who also enabled a serial predator for decades.” Rachael
_______

So very many Christians have believed the courts/ligation are the answer. Rachael is a lawyer, even she was disappointed apparently. Those who sought justice thru the courts against SGM have been disappointed; at least twice. I don’t know what has happened to the third attempt to get SGM thru the courts that Brent talked about. Did it die?
____
I’m sure Scripture is right; avoid courts as best you can.

I remain uncomfortable with Brent’s publishing the identity of the email correspondant. However, I believe him about the authority teaching, and I do not recall ever being taught the kind of obedience to authority that was part of the shepherding movement….Which is not to say that there wasn’t heavy handed authoritarianism, or that there weren’t individual leaders who applied the meaning of what Brent wrote above to suit their own ideas about how they wanted people to respond to what they said. There definitely was authoritarianism.

But what I meant about abdicating personal responsibility was not something I thought was taught. Rather it was something that appeared to be people’s preference (or their own personal interpretation of what was taught). Which, to me, is worse. Who needs to teach blind obedience when you have people lining up to offer it? It was really astounding to me to see otherwise intelligent people back away from conflict in the name of obeying God or their leaders, when it was clear they just didn’t want to have to make any changes or big decisions. I could sympathize, but at the end of the day, I couldn’t live with it myself.

I am reminded of that quote about how all it takes is for good men to do nothing for evil to prevail.

It was JOHN Smyth who committed horrendous acts of violence and abuse towards boys/young men. It was JOHN Smyth who committed these criminal acts and should have been in jail long ago. John Smyth was surrounded by men and women his age or older/wiser to whom he should have been held accountable. Those who were peers of JOHN Smyth, who knew what he was doing, had the responsibility to report him to the police.

And yet, you keep singling out PJ. Do you have any idea at all what it was like to grow up with a father like John Smyth? No, you do not. Do you have any idea what kind of lies and deceit that PJ lived under as told by his father? No, you do not. Do you have any idea what it would be like for PJ to turn his own father, especially John Smyth, to the police? No, you do not. Have you even considered these things?

As far as PJ’s statements are concerned, I believe he said what he did so as to not be faced with a lawsuit. This is reasonable to me, since there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that PJ participated in any in the abusive, criminal activity. PJ should not suffer for his father’s crimes. It is JOHN Smyth who should be brought to justice on behalf of those boys who were abused, not PJ.

And yet, I believed right away that PJ was not telling the whole truth when he issued those statements. I believed them to be incomplete; not the whole story. I also believed right off the bat that he said what he did to avoid a lawsuit.

And so, I chose to look the other way from PJ’s sin. I did so because I do not believe he should suffer the consequences of his father’s sin. I believe PJ chose the only path that he knew, in this instance, to avoid those consequences.

I do not believe I could have turned my own father in to the police. I can not say what I would do if my own statements would open me and my family to a lawsuit. It is easy for me to say that I would tell the truth as I sit here. But I am not PJ.

I am considering PJ’s entire situation. Is it not reasonable to come to the conclusions that I have?

Regarding the rest, my reference to shepherding has nothing to do with Nee. In the circles I traveled he was considered extreme and fringe. I am referring to the Ft Lauderdale 5 and the conferences where they spoke, with Larry and CJ, and many others. C and D Schmitt come to mind, Bob and Mary Jane Wright, Harlan Johnson. I don’t remember all the names.

It is entirely possible that different SGM churches had different degrees of shepherding teaching and abusive authority. From the stories here CLC, CFC, and Fairfax sounded particularly bad. My husband refers to our experience as OK before the PC, and not OK once the PC started to produce their zealous young men enamored with all things CJ. Time and place are part of an SGM experience.

At any rate, CJ became the pope and you propped him up for years until the hand that fed you turned around and bit you. It was several years after our eyes were open before your own awareness of his true unrepentant hard heartedness came (fall of 2004 IIRC). We viewed him as harsh and abusive and a false apostle and possible sociopath at least 5-6 years before you saw the light. ( We gracefully “left well”.) I am grateful for the discernment God gave us, and it would behoove you to cut other people some slack who are in delusion. It can take years. CJ was never a true apostle and and you spent 20 years in deception promoting something false. I hope someday you can admit it.

Again, you have no right at all to tell some married woman in another church which you have no part in that she is required to go confront something. If she feels led to pray fervently and keep her mouth shut, you have no business telling her to go talk to anybody. Many people see problems in churches, politics, relationships, and all kinds of situations where God wants them to be silent and endure with much prayer. I am sure many gentile Galatians in Antioch knew Peter was wrong to start avoiding them and leading Barnabus astray too, but in God’s time He brought Paul to confront Peter. We are not always called to confront everything. It was over a year, so I read, before Nathan the prophet confronted David for his grievous sins.

A passage in Edwards Religious Affections, part 3, about all the people in the bible who had powerful encounters with God while alone. So so many. We tend to look to the church to meet us, but it can happen alone no matter what goes on at church.

Joy Unspeakable by LLoyd-Jones. So encouraging to press into God for times of refreshing and renewing in the HS. A lovely book.

Iain Murray- Revival and Revivalism. The story of Revival in America that last 200 + years. Can get a bit dry and tedious with details, but so much amazing history. It helped me look ahead and pray for revival.

P.J. should not suffer for his father’s crimes but he should be held accountable for his defense of his father against the allegations of sexual sadism, voyeurism, and exhibitionism which resulted in criminal charges. 30+ years, please study the evidence. You should not be defending or excusing P.J. in any way, shape or form. You should be calling for his permanent firing on this blog and in CLC.

Before he was exposed, P.J. even had the gall to highly commended his father on the CLC blog as a “primary shaping spiritual influence” who “instilled in him a love for God’s Word and for leadership” even though he knew all the evil his father had committed. He is an accomplice to the charade that the Smyth’s are top of the class evangelical elites.

In addition, P.J. observed some of the violent beatings. He too should have reported them to law enforcement as required. Moreover, he was his father’s closet confidante once the allegations and charges were brought against his father in Zimbabwe. P.J. was a college graduate, married, and 22 years old. He was no juvenile.

Yet, despite his first-hand knowledge of violent beatings and other overwhelming evidence, he repudiated David Coltart (the top civil rights lawyer in Zimbabwe) and the Zimbabwe pastors who testified on the behalf of seven victims. Furthermore, he worked to get his father off for his crimes from Feb 1994 (age 23) to Oct 1997 (age 26) through connections with the government. He was no innocent hap-along. He should have helped with the prosecution even though it was his father. The horrific beating of boys and young men involved scores of individuals and inflicted great harm upon their souls.

I don’t know what it is like to grow up with a sexual sadist for a father, but that is no excuse for P.J. defending him, allowing innocents to be harmed, and being party to corrupt means to stop the prosecution.

All of this cunning conveyed to CLC. P.J. withheld the above information from the Search Committee to get the lead pastor job. And then he lied to Covenant Life to keep the job after his father was exposed on three continents in Feb. 2017. P.J. claimed absolutely no knowledge of any allegations against his father as reported in the press. His lying was beyond audacious! Soon after, the CLC pastors discovered it was a lie. They covered it up.

P.J. didn’t lie because he feared a lawsuit. He lied because he didn’t want to be exposed and lose his job and face possible deportation. He lied because he wanted to keep his prestigious job at a former mega-church with 40 acres and a massive facility in one of the wealthiest counties in America that is near Washington D.C.

Furthermore, P.J. has refused to speak out against his father and call for him to return to England and face justice even though victims have asked him to do so. He has also refused interviews with people like Cathy Newman in the UK who broke the story about his father. And he has expressed no care or compassionate concern for victim’s of his father according to the victims themselves.

I have never said or implied that P.J. committed the crimes he father did. But he is cunning like his father and for that he must be held accountable. No one with any biblical integrity would allow him to continue in pastoral ministry at CLC given the magnitude of his deceit which mirrors that of his father.

“Do you have any idea what it would be like for PJ to turn his own father, especially John Smyth, to the police? No, you do not. Have you even considered these things?

“As far as PJ’s statements are concerned, I believe he said what he did so as to not be faced with a lawsuit. This is reasonable to me…

“Lying is not ok with me.

“And yet, I believed right away that PJ was not telling the whole truth when he issued those statements. I believed them to be incomplete; not the whole story. I also believed right off the bat that he said what he did to avoid a lawsuit.

“And so, I chose to look the other way from PJ’s sin. I did so because I do not believe he should suffer the consequences of his father’s sin. I believe PJ chose the only path that he knew, in this instance, to avoid those consequences.

“I do not believe I could have turned my own father in to the police. I can not say what I would do if my own statements would open me and my family to a lawsuit. It is easy for me to say that I would tell the truth as I sit here. But I am not PJ.

“I am considering PJ’s entire situation. Is it not reasonable to come to the conclusions that I have?”

30+ Years, I hear what you are saying. And I believe in tons of grace. But if I could relay the following of my own story, please…

I turned my own father into the police. Then I led the police into my dad’s house, the house I grew up in, the police with their guns drawn and wearing bullet proof vests, me in my every day clothes. (Domestic situations are normally the most dangerous kind for police.)

My father was the most godly man I have ever met. When the police took him out of the house, he saw me, locked eyes on me and desperately, incredulously asked, “Greater love have no man than this?! Huh?”

I thought to myself, “Yeah, I’m going to need to go get therapy for that one day.” And I did.

I’m not judging PJ. I have not walked EXACTLY in his shoes. But I do want to say to you, if you need to turn your dad in, God can give you the grace for it, if you ask.

God can give you the grace to stand up in court and defend victims, even if it’s against your own dad, the man you with all of your heart. God can give you the grace to go before the judge and ask the judge to up your dad’s bail so high that your father can’t make bail, if you think that’s the right thing to do. God can give you the grace to go against your big brother’s wishes, when he’s telling you that you are doing the wrong thing by turning in your dad, and you’re wondering if your decision is going to split the entire family. And God can give you the grace to love your brother and him to love you. And God can give you the grace to love your mom through the trauma, take her into your home so she doesn’t have to be alone while your dad languishes in prison. God can give you the grace to do a lot of things, if He desires and you desire. Heck, He can give you the grace even when you don’t desire. Especially when you don’t desire.

He can, also, give you the grace to stand up in the same courtroom and speak to the same judge, ten minutes after you’ve spoken on behalf of the victim, (at the victims’ request), and then stand again and speak on your dad’s behalf, this time. And so do, without feeling any sense of dichotomy or contradiction. Because truth is truth when all the truth is spoken. Both the bad parts and the good. When only parts are spoken, it becomes not truth, but an easy, twisted version of it. Kind of like the parts Satan spoke when he was trying to tempt Jesus. “Doesn’t the scripture say…,” he said to Jesus, leaving out some scripture, while speaking others. If the important stuff gets left out, even the word of God can become the word of the devil. If I had let the courts only see one side of my dad, once I knew the truth, it would have felt like a lie.

I agree with you that no one needs to suffer because of their parents’ sin, though that is exactly what most of us suffer the most from. It’s life. Most of the things we suffer or a lot of the things, are a result of our parents sin. It stinks, but it’s life on this earth until we are called home.

You are, also, 100% correct: PJ should not be punished for his father’s sin. (Which is what I think you were trying to say.) Frankly, I don’t think anyone here or else where has ever suggested that PJ should be punished for his father’s sin. (That would be beyond ludicrous.)

And yes, turning your dad in is really, really hard. Speaking publicly against your father is really, really hard. (Especially when he was often the guy leading worship, like my dad was or maybe PJ’s dad was.) Holding church meetings, like my brother and I held, to expose the truth to the church we grew up in, which my dad helped to lead our whole lives was hard, too.

And lying to protect your own reputation, keep from getting sued is easy. Really, really easy when you’re scared, and you forget who God is. Or maybe just really easy when you’re scared. And I get being scared. Believe me. My middle name is Fear and if you cut me open, I may be yellow in the middle. Sometimes I go into a store to get something and leave without it because I’m too nervous to ask for help! Trust me, I get fear.

I have no beef with this guy PJ and for the most part, I could really care less what it happening in his world, other than I feel sorry for him, given the dad he may have had. I don’t know enough to say for sure the father he had, though it does sound like the man was abusive and I really feel sorry for anyone who may have had an abusive parent.

But do you (or anyone) really want a man who had such a rough background and has yet to do the hard work of processing it through and dealing with it, to lead a church? Especially a church which is, essentially going through the same thing, namely having had some trauma from their last “dad” and instead of spending years working through it, getting the therapy they need, doing the hard work of healing, coming to healing in a way where God can be glorified and people can know healing, they are just avoiding speaking the hard truth, maybe for fear of being sued? Can’t you see, this church needs someone with the wisdom and insight who has walked through the tough things of life and come out on the other side, no longer afraid of following God, but KNOWS God’s grace to do the hard things, the scary things, without fear of man, or fearful of losing their reputation or money, bogging them down? (Trust me, I lost it all.)

Can none of us see that poor PJ and poor CLC are both in the same boat, mirroring each other? Maybe an abusive dad/leader, who was never forced to deal with the fruit of their controlling ways? PJ and CLC, too scared to look in the rear view mirror and see the trailer of baggage they are trailing behind them where ever they go, loudly proclaiming that all of that is in the past and they are moving forward? I pity them as a group, as a church and as individuals. I pray, when I think of them, that God would wrap His loving arms around them, and show them His way to deal with the things still attached to their chassis and which will never come loose until they face each and every piece back there, one at a time, in a loving, repentant way, down to letting SGM out of a lease they were responsible for. (This was not grace, friends, this was foolishness and, I believe, a warped view of grace and a clear case of co-dependency. Rather than saying, “OK, CJ, you can leave and do as you please, but we are not footing the bill for your responsibilities in this lease,” they covered for him. This was a classic adult child of an alcoholic move if I’ve ever seen one, and a screaming sign to those who have eyes of a co-dependency beyond any rationality.)

So, yes, it is hard to turn your dad in and it’s hard to lose a WHOLE LOT of your family money as a result of doing so. (Gee, did I mention that part, too? Yeah, my life would have been a whole lot cushier and I’d have more money had I not turned Dad in. But I don’t recall ease or self protection being part of Jesus’ calling to pick up our crosses and follow Him. But if it was, please, someone tell me and I will gladly change my life in a few key areas.) What I see is a command to love the Lord our God with all of our hearts, all of our souls and all of our minds. And to love our neighbors as ourselves. How can we love our neighbors if we are not turning in their tormentors to the proper authorities? (And I can tell you, some pastor ain’t ever the “proper authorities.”)

Please, if you are ever in a position where you have to turn in the most godly person you know, or the worst person, or anything in between, know God CAN give you the grace should you need it. Though I really, really hope you never will.

Mark Prater told me you were fired for the way you were lording over your churches and that it was so bad that you were really hurting members and their families. You started doing whatever you wanted regardless of the direction of your elders. This will forever be lodged in my mind and everything you do to be suspect unless you can somehow comment on the contrary.

30+ said “I am considering PJ’s entire situation. Is it not reasonable to come to the conclusions that I have?”

I think others have addressed some of the things you said, but also please, please consider – people who had parents who were alcoholics, mentally unstable, abusers (any kind of abuse), etc. learn to lie at an early age, just to be able to hold their heads up in public. I completely understand it and sympathize. Completely. But for me this means PJ Smyth, who has not publically dealt with his father’s crimes and his own lies about what he knew, is a practiced liar, he is someone for whom it is second nature to cover things up rather than address problems head on.

Is that the kind of leader you want? And I want to emphasize we are talking about a religious leader, not the guy next door who is a doctor or an electrician, etc. PJ’s job is expressly to lead his followers to a place with higher standards – not lower standards.

I don’t think he is a bad guy – I think he is seriously deficient in the leadership department.

But you will probably get an earful about Prater’s wickedness, which, based on Trueblue and Jenn Grover’s testimony, I have no reason to doubt. The more one reads, the more it seems like SGM was totally overrun with corruption at the highest levels. All of them, including BD.

Run4Hills…What Mark Prater told you is a complete fabrication but I am not surprised. He is a man of extraordinary deceit. He and SGM have used everything in their evil power to discredit me from the day I sent out The Documents on July 6, 2011. That is their only weapon against me because they cannot refute the thousands of pages of hard evidence exposing and illustrating their lording, lying, cover-ups, abuses, corruption, hypocrisy, arrogance, etc.

I resigned from the Board of Directors in Nov 2007 because I could not continue to work with C.J. in good conscience. I was not fired for lording. That is a preposterous lie but I am not surprised Prater told you such.

Prater is a master deceiver as many on this blog who knew him well have attested. I’d ask that you read the following. T

After I resigned from the Board, I decided to plant a SGM church because I still loved things about the movement and people in the movement. But I could not work for C.J. and knew he was extremely angry toward me for the loving correction I brought him during the previous 7 years.

C.J. was not content, however, to let me plant a small church. He directed Dave Harvey, Gene Emerson (later arrested for soliciting an undercover cop), Bob Kauflin, Mickey Connolly, to come after me in various ways at various times. It is a story people would not believe if you told them.

That’s why I wrote about parts of it in The Untold Story using documentation. It is shocking story of extraordinary abuse and deceit. Some day I will complete the story. I’ve learned even more about their machinations since then.

There are so many other examples of C.J. and his surrogates seeking to discredit and destroy me. I’ll spare you.

I didn’t step down or leave SGC because I was fired for lording over churches. That was not a charge ever brought against me! Just the opposite, I left SGC because of the lording I was experiencing and the abject corruption I was witnessing.

What Mark Prater told you about me was designed to turn you against me so you don’t read and study all the evidence against him and those associated with him in Covenant Fellowship Church and Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. That has been the cornerstone of their evil strategy to keep people from discovering the wretched truth about them from the day I went public with The Documents.

5years… As I’ve told you before (and documented before), Barry Woods was the most legalistic and authoritarian leader in SGM. He was removed from ministry because of his pride, anger, and heavy handedness. The story he tells is completely fallacious. This action was necessary and in keeping with Scripture. It was done with the support of his closest friends, local leaders, and the church. It is ironic, that you are defending a man that was everything you claim to be opposed to in leaders. This is another bogus example you use against me that has no merit.

While I find it useless at this point to appeal to Brent to apologize for any wrong doing in his 25 years of apostolic ministry in SGM, I would hope the rest of you go read “the other side” at the link I just posted. It contains more than the account by BW/FF. Plenty of people in BW/FF’s church loved and affirmed him, and plenty of people suffered under Brent’s ministry. I don’t think Brent is capable of seeing anything else but being right in his so called apostolic, and pastoral, ministry. I do not believe the charges brought against BW/FF in Brent’s post above. Normal sin maybe, but not scandalous and deserving of the treatment he got.

Brent, you are so hard hearted. I wasn’t even in leadership much less a pastor or apostle, and I’ve had to profusely apologize to my kids for coming under “the spell” and how it affected them. You were under it for so many years…..several years after hubby and I could see CJ as a harsh and abusive man and got out. You were duped. That stronghold had its claws in your heart and mind and it affected how you did ministry.

Maybe it is too painful to face? I don’t know. There is no way out but facing the pain though, and admitting how duped you were and how you let that spirit rule your ministry, and how you injured people. For me it was my kids. For you it was much bigger. But the remedy for both is the same. “I was wrong, I was in deception, I am so so sorry”.

5years…You don’t know the facts. It was not “normal sin,” it was disqualifying sin. And a long-standing pattern of it.

Your hypocrisy is a great concern. You condemn me for supposed sins you consistently commit. As I’ve said, “Your abusive ways rival anything in SGM or the shepherding movement.” There is a log protruding out of your eye. I hope the Holy Spirit helps you to remove it.

I am going to be stepping away from this forum. I’ve tried to be helpful and constructive but that is difficult when constantly having to invest my time in responding to 5years. Most times when I post, she attacks with malice and baseless accusations. And though refuted, she brings up the same scandalous accusations, ad infinitum. That has been going on for years. It is wearying and painful. Unfortunately, she is oblivious to her double standard.

Well, I am signing off. There are other matters to which I must turn my attention. Grace to all!

I Read the link above provided by 5yearsinPDI. A gracious and caring man named Dan Stolldorf had the same “pride” charges brought against him in SG Apex NC in about 2000/2001, by MC/BD. He was sinfully removed from ministry. Never should have happened.

Mark Prater lies about his lies….I wouldn’t put any weight on his views in anything, let alone Brent.

As for Brent, you can take your ball and go home if you want. I don’t quite comprehend your unwillingness to address simple questions about your past. You strike me as didactic and unconversational…..you do realize your not anybody’s Apostle anymore?

I hope you can eventually think about 25 years of propping up CJ who you now rant and rave about, and hanging tight with your good buddy M Connolly who you now say horrible things about (I have no reason to think you are wrong today about either), and come to the conclusion that your apostolic ministry had flaws and you were blind to certain difficult realities.

At the very least you encouraged many churches and people to respect and submit to men you now excoriate in the harshest of scathing posts. An apology for your own blindness in that area would be nice. Even better will be the day you see how abusive your own apostolic regime was too, just by virtue of playing by the SGM rules.

I sincerely wish you God’s best, but I don’t think that will happen until you can apologize.

As musicman said :

“As for Brent, I’m still waiting for your Mea Culpa. You practiced and preached the same heavy handed pastor centered doctrine that enabled these men. You knew about and documented CJ’s bkackmail of Larry in 1996. Why did you wait a decade to speak publicly?

I’d wish you’d spend as much time writing about your own mistakes about propping up Mr “I’m the worst sinner I know” Mahaney as you do your penance in advocating for victims of SGM.

You ask for money to do what the rest of us have done for free (or at their own expense-like Kris&Guy)-speak the truth in love to those who were bullied and lied to by the people you trained and propped up as godly men.”

You want to come here and post information- that’s fine, I will shut up. You go posting letters by women who are gracious enough to not ignore you, calling it “hate”(which it was not) and I won’t shut up. You owe Erin an apology for putting her name out, and for judging her heart and trying to tell her what to do. As musicman just said, you are not her apostle any more. Nor anybody’s.

My brother responded:
Eric Grover Retweeted Desiring God
“This is ridiculous and sad. God loves His people too much for this to be true. The problem lies in 2 things. #1 You probably are defining “healthy” with unbiblical standards, and #2 you think way too highly of pastors.”

I agree with my brother. The fact that DH is still out there pedaling his absolute rubbish is a testament to the big money driving DG, TGC, and SGM. They have no standards, no conscious, and are motivated by money.

Priesthood of Believers! Quality of the Church depends on it’s relationship with God through Jesus Christ as it’s Head and Covering not on pastors. If they believe the Harvey crap then explain all of the sexual, financial, integrity, authority abuses that have taken place amongst church leadership over the years including the present time. SGM/SGC, SBC, Willow Grove, New Wine Ministries, …………………….. That is only what we are aware of with much being hidden from us ignorant sheep. Transparency and accountability to those called by our Lord is a huge part of the answer but he’ll will freeze over before these church systems open their financial secrets to their deceived supporters. How much do these shepherds actually make from salary, benefits, housing allowances, speakers fees and honoraria, gifts, etc. Paul the Apostle and other martyrs are figuratively rolling over in their graves. Where is the servant leadership examples in the SGC or CFC models. I teach at a large business college and what is taught in the secular world is more Godly than the leadership/management models followed in these church systems. Agile management is the cutting edge today in corporate America where bottom up teams are trusted and given authority and superiors are viewed as responsible for overall mission and vision with minimal hierarchy and no titles if possible. There is no gap between managers and implementors.

Stop exalting pastors/elders and truly serve the church members not the reverse. Stop the blatent idolatry taking place within SGC! We are all sinners saved by grace with foibles, issues, and character flaws. Demand financial accountability even though they hide behind the law when it comes to non-profit publication of form 990. What are you hiding? Come clean and experience the freedom and joy of not hiding sin any longer. God does not need your man made movement to further the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You need him and His values, morals, and principles. He does not need leaders such as Harvey, C.J., Prater, Hybels, Jim Baker, SGC leadership, etc. Please don’t think of yourselves more highly than you should. If you are truly reformed in your doctrine, then stop letting your depravity rule and seek repetence, truth, true humility, and accountability to the people who support your lifestyles. Prater should go back to corporate America. Perhaps he might learn leadership in that community. C.J. should retire and live his lavish lifestyle off of his generous retirement plan, savings, and book income. Realize that your jig is up and you have been exposed. The other leaders have no legitimate resumes, CVs, marketable skills or experience. Go into the workforce and make your living like the rest of us. Stop hiding behind the phrase, “don’t tough my anointed”, Your anointing has left the camp some time ago guys.

Trueblue, this is where bad theology has puffed them up. They honestly believe that as pastors, they are better equipped to make decisions and have access to information that the everyday Joe can’t handle… or, “would not serve us” to know. They believe that along with pastoral gifting is this right to conceal and deceive as they seem fit. There is no real priesthood of all believers in their theology. Until CLC and SGM, or former SGM pastors denounce and repent of this, nothing of substance will change in these churches.

When I challenged Mark on that he immediately jumped to the argument that it would be wrong to breach confidentiality. It was intentional conflation of the issues. They see no middle ground between protecting the confidentiality of the congregant sharin gtheir struggles and transparency about how the church is run or character issues of a leader. They have taken their unbiblical stance to such an extreme that they have completely disregarded the Scriptures related to rebuking a pastor in public so that all can benefit from the correction. There is simply no biblical support for this view nor their behavior. It is ungodly.

Checkmate, I have no idea of who you are but I have only recently taken up a microphone because I have been silent for years. I don’t know your past but I have read a few of your posts and it appears that you like the microphone as well. I really hesitated to post at all but I was incensed by Prater’s response to the Christianity Today article and questioning the integrity of Rachael’s statements. Don’t be so quick to shut me off. I give you full freedom to express your feelings and thoughts on this forum. I for one appreciate the access we all have to this microphone.

@Jenn Grover, I have not seen a better summary. Thank you. “This is where bad theology has puffed them up. They honestly believe that as pastors, they are better equipped to make decisions and have access to information that the everyday Joe can’t handle… or, “would not serve us” to know. They believe that along with pastoral gifting is this right to conceal and deceive as they seem fit… They have taken their unbiblical stance to such an extreme that they have completely disregarded the Scriptures related to rebuking a pastor in public so that all can benefit from the correction. There is simply no biblical support for this view nor their behavior. It is ungodly.”

“Dropping the mic” was a stage move that rap artists used to do in ‘battles’ (think of the movie “8 Mile”). If the rapper gave a really sharp response to their opponent, they then dropped the microphone as if there was nothing more that could be said to top it.

When I challenged Mark on that he immediately jumped to the argument that it would be wrong to breach confidentiality. It was intentional conflation of the issues. They see no middle ground between protecting the confidentiality of the congregant sharing their struggles and transparency about how the church is run or character issues of a leader. They have taken their unbiblical stance to such an extreme that they have completely disregarded the Scriptures related to rebuking a pastor in public so that all can benefit from the correction. There is simply no biblical support for this view nor their behavior. It is ungodly.

Isn’t that the typical strategy to conflate or come up with one extreme situation where something wouldn’t work to try and prove that this won’t work?

Disregarding rebuking a pastor in public is something you never hear about within SGM. Church discipline only applies to regular members and not leaders.

Their definition of leadership is not someone who has studied, and worked, and has lots of proven experience and success doing what it is they are supposed to do. Their definition starts with “annointing,” and then works it’s way down to those things later on (maybe). And who decides who is “annointed”? They do, of course, because they are “annointed.”

Why would an “annointed” person even take the time to listen to someone who is not “annointed”? What do they (we) know?

Also, they could be out of a job if they accept correction – the idealistic but vague standard “above reproach” is hard to maintain if some other (more) “annointed” person thinks what they admit to is disqualifying.

Popeye- I keep meaning to get back to you and say thanks for sharing that. So many tragic degifting stories. Hard to picture BD ever admitting he was wrong though. I find comfort in knowing many of these men are very happy now, and living in grace and freedom in the Lord.

About the tweet- Harvey is entirely correct if you understand his presupposition. As Kris posted in the OP,

SGMers are taught that pastors, by virtue of their higher calling and “gifting,” possess special abilities to perceive a person’s sins more accurately than the person himself.

Now scripture says in John 16 that when the Holy Spirit comes, he will convict us about sin and righteousness. He will also guide us into the truth. At least since the Reformation, Christians understood that with the help of scripture and the Holy Spirit, they can become aware of sin and press into righteousness. The priesthood of all believers means the end of a clergy-laity distinction where only the clergy can forgive sin during the rite of confession, and only the Catholic priesthood can properly understand scripture.

Col 3 speaks of admonishing one another. Romans 15 says we are able to instruct one another (Adams write the book on Competent to Counsel, ie, all Christians can be counselors for one another). Hebrews exhorts us to encourage one another. There are all sorts of verses about how fellowship helps us escape sin.

However, if it is pastors who can see sin, not you, and not your peers, and you have to have pastors confronting your sin to be sanctified, then yes indeed, you really need quality leaders to have a healthy church. Harvey would be correct.

I would assume that quality, based on experience and what you can read in their writings and the 900 pages of documents, contains minimal amounts of prayer.

I feel sorry for the Christians thrown in jail by oppressive regimes. No leaders, no spiritual health? I wonder if maybe God makes exceptions for them? (Might be here in America one day.)

5 Years wrote:
The priesthood of all believers means the end of a clergy-laity distinction where only the clergy can forgive sin during the rite of confession, and only the Catholic priesthood can properly understand scripture.

My thoughts:
As I put my thoughts down, I pray those who are, and still yet still in capitivity.
That the Holy Spirit will lead those who are afraid to even click on this site, much less read it, to know the truth and be set free.

As SGM, SGC and related churches, may be more Catholic in practice than they/we think, or believe, ( please don’t freak out just yet, here me out, then make a judgement) when it comes to over seeing, and control, and the control, that comes from the papacy, for their fruit does look similar, as it is exammed by the light of the scriptures, the fruit of the (shepherding doctrine for exsample), for all the pain, time invested, in religious systems, and come to find out, what you/we were thought, and what as we were building on the rock,
or, are we building on the sand, for both can look identical from the outside in.
( I’m referring to the congregations of Covenant Life Church, Sovereign Grace Ministries, and Sovereign Grace Church, and there related churches past and present ).

For untill the testing comes, and the storms of this life, that will prove the rock, or the storms. shall destroy the sand, and it may not even happen over night, but it may take years.

For the shepherding doctrines can look attractive, to those who have been influenced by its teachings.
It is just note, that both CJ, and Larry, both came out of Catholic backgrounds.

So, as it looks like there is a redefinition of sin, as
( SGC,SGM) leadership calls it, and they are only ones qualified, to be able to discern, and place the problems, and have the discernment of the solutions,(their view), to walk or live in blessing of the Christian life.

So, if (SGC CLC) are going to take the responsibilities to direct and lord over, God’s people and there lives, as in this life, as defined above, then they will also have to take the responsibilities in this life, for the ultimate failures as well.
For the Lord himself will hold those in leadership accountable, for the lording and the abuses, for God has and will judge the leadership in times past and present, and as then, in the Old Testament, with the nation of Israel, and when their leaders LED HIS people astray at times, and to follow after other gods, and to not receive the chastening of the Lord, and to return to the Lord God, and walk in the ways that He had commanded them.

For the scriptures are clear that God will require from every man, what sort of work, wither, it be good or bad, and some unto everlasting righteousness, unto eternal life, and others unto unrighteousness and eternal separation.

So, as they (SGC) (SGM) (CLC) and as well of all of man-kind, will stand before the Judgment-seat of Jesus Christ, how they (SGM CLC SGC) have added to the Scriptures, and to that the man made rules. So, as the congregations of (SGM) (SGC) (CLC) have born the fruit, as documented in this blog, over the years, or any other man made religions , that has a form of Christianity, but It has historically taken steps to adding or taken away, from the Holy Scriptures. So, with their man made rules, and regulations, in which we Christians look down, to and say “oh that’s not of God!” ( or the other views, apart from our own lens or perspectives at the moment).
So, is the only authority of the congregations, in that man, is in control, or that the Holy Spirit is in control, (the delema of the ages) as defined by the scriptures.
And how is that, He the Lord will set the living stones together, as it pleases Him, not so much mans plans, as it pleases them (men).

So, as He spoke to His children on Mount Sinai, He has now spoken to us now by His Only Son, for search the scriptures, and see that they the (scriptures) have testified of Him! (Jesus)
Please see John 17, That we all may be one, as Father you, and I are one. So that the world may belive that you Holy Father have sent me (Jesus), and they shall believe on me, and that you have sent me.
So whats is the difference? Just in Name only? Denomination only?
Interpretation only?
So, was and is the real reformation, that had a real shaking, to the seat of power of the church in power at the time of the1st and 2nd centuries.

But here now, we as (Belivers on and in Christ) are now relinquishing, and giving back our authority in Chirst as believers, asking now for man’s opinions, or views, even when, we should be seeking the Word from the Most High, and allowing, the Holy Spirit, to bring the witness of the Old Test Scriptures, the Prophets, of the Psalms, as well as Jesus’s own words as they were documented in the Gospels, to testify of the fullness of the Messiah, His plan for the ages, to His 1st coming and He walked perfectly, and demonstrated the Father’s will, so that all men to have the perfect exsample of (Jesus Christ life to follow) so we are to walk on this Earth as well, pleasing to God, and loving one another, as empowered by the Holy Spirit.
And as His 2nd coming, is to be revealed, for all at to see, at that time, and will see His Glorious return, as it is written in (the Scriptures) by the Holy Prophets of old.

So,what was His mission?
As I mentioned, before (past postings) a good start is for all of us to examine, John 17, to see that His mission, was to reconcile man, to God Himself.
And as He continually is interceding for us as Melchizedek our faithful High Priest of the Most High, to ever make reconciliation, and His shed blood has redeemed us.
So, as He Jesus challenged, that very seat of power or man-made religion, and corruption in His day, so is the Holy Spirit is challenging, the religious and man-made systems ,that are contrary to the Holy Scriptures in our day. See Acts chapter 7 for 1st century example after Jesus death and Resurrection of the witness, of the Holy Spirit speeking thru Steven aginst the religious leaders who fight and resist God’s ultimate plan, so we see religious leaders today fight with the same zeal against God’s plan with the abuse and lording over His people, this is why it’s imperative that we hold (them the leaders) accountable.

So when you pull back the curtain of reality, the test of time, and TEST the Fruit of it,
Looks like, man made religion working, in reality! is being exposed.

For Jesus said, I’m the Good Shepherd “I lay my LIFE down for the sheep”, but those who try to come another way, are but thiefs, and robbers.
Like I said before, Paul said there will be heresies among you to prove those that are over you.

As Martin Luther nailed the note to the church door so long in Germany.

So should saints of God, with in these congregations of Sovereign Grace churches, Covenant Life Church, and all the churches that are related.
Pray and consider the need, to rise up, and take this documentation as provided on this site, and even to tell there own storys, maybe not yet listed here, on this blog, and or other blogs, and nail it to the front doors of those churches, ( SGM, CLC, SGC) for all to see.

Only then will you see TRUE change, as History has recorded, and documented. If not, we as God’s children, we may never come out of captivity ( of the power, and control, and of the lording, and the controling spirits, of false doctrine with in this denomination of churches).
So, now lets press on and move forward, to the see the Promised land, you fill in the blank of what God Himself, has promised to you personally, as outlined in His Word to you!

Last week, allegations about a fundamentalist Baptist pastor was accused of sexually abusing a high school girl when he was the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Dundalk, MD. The current pastor, Stacey Shifflett, had an amazing response. His communication style is not my preference and I am betting we would have theological differences, but he has my utmost respect. When he learned of the allegations, Shifflett and his deacons set out to thoroughly investigate them. Although he considered the accused a personal friend, he insisted that the truth be discovered because he had been a victim of clergy abuse as a child and propsotioned as a young pastor by an older more mature pastor.

Shifflett’s video is one for the ages. In substance, I mostly agree with him. Where I differ was his desire to keep the police out of it. He did, however, fully support the victim’s decision to go to the police, and said he would have been happy to go with her to support her had he known she was going to go.

I recommend googling him or searching towtter for him to watch the 2 videos posted related to this.

Thanks for sharing the information about the pastor in Dundalk Maryland. I looked up his YouTube video and it was quite a breath of fresh air with him someone wanting to know the truth and have it investigated about a really sad event that happened at his church before he was pastor there. I wish a lot more leaders in the church were like this person. Stacey Shifflet wants the truth no matter what it is and the cost.

Why do so many other leaders want to cover up sexual,abuse and tolerate sin in the camp? This includes SGM and CLC Leaders tolerating sin in the camp.

It looks like Stacey Shiflett has now taken down his YouTube video (the one you mentioned) and last Sunday’s service. In a Twitter post Pastor Shiflett said:

I am very grateful for some very positive results today. I have pulled my response video down. It served its purpose.

and

Also, it was worth it to prove the point that to some, it’s ok to publicly rebuke a preacher that exposes sin, but it’s not ok to publicly rebuke a preacher that commits the sin. The hypocrisy is astounding. And sickening. And we are all tired of it.

also
Until those of us in leadership get honest about our failures to protect the sheep, expose the wolves and be the warriors of truth we profess to be, then we are part of the problem. Cowardice to confront sin is killing our credibility and influence.

A shame he took down both videos. It is refreshing to see a pastor who wants to know the truth despite the cost and even though Pastor Shiflett considered the pastor that molested a 16 year old girl a friend Pastor Shiflett wanted to know the truth.

So Brent says the removal of BW “…was done with the support of his closest friends, local leaders, and the church” Did the people attending that church even have a vote or say in the matter. Or was it sprung on them in a special meeting some evening?

I think that is an excellent statement! And “refreshing” is the right word.

One comment, though – in all the biblical sheep/shephard metaphors, only God and Jesus are shepherds, which means pastors are sheep, too. Right? Or am I misunderstanding something? I am not trying to detract from Schiflett’s comments, but I am wondering if pastors didn’t have this mentality that we are sheep and they are not, maybe there wouldn’t be so many leadership abuses…?

Steve240 – I agree, I only meant that his reference to it prompted me to think about it. I wasn’t targeting him, or trying to detract from the whole point of his statement. My comment was a tangent meant to be applied generally..

Shortly after he wrote the article the SGM scandal exploded. Mohler’s words concerning Penn State rang hollow as he strongly supported Mahaney, even going so far as to publish and sign a statement of support for him containing factually inaccurate information. (Co-signed by Mark Dever and Ligon Duncan.)

If Mohler is serious in his latest article he will repent of his support for C.J. Mahanney, including his ridiculous joking introduction of him at the 2016 T4G conference and his belittling of abuse victims, refuse to share future conference stages with C.J. Mahaney, and demand a truly independent investigation of Sovereign Grace Churches.

Mohler is, above all, a politician. To get to his position one must be. Politicians will say anything to obtain and retain power.

Thanks for sharing the link. Shiflett is my new favorite pastor. “‘inappropriate conduct’ is a term you use when you cuss someone out in the parking lot, not for molesting a 16 year old girl…for a year.”

Big shake-up going on with the Southern Baptist Convention related to the #metoo movement. It will be interesting to see if this pushes that segment t of The Gospel Coalition to stop pretending to ignore CJ since he is, technically, a Southern Baptists, now.

Also, Ray Ortulnd declared SGM a different situation that SBTS because the accusations “have been investigated.” Whatever, Ray. You are choosing ignorance. There is no excuse for you.

Found in today’s Twitter feed was a woman who replied to Rachel Denhollander that her swim coach, who had abused her for years, brought her to CLC. She noted how easy it was for him to feel comfortable for the abuser.

I would also recommend feeling the longer YouTube video called Justice and Judgement that shows up when you go to the above link. It has a lot of good information. I am am you won’t hear any SGM Pastor give this kind of message or do this detailed of investigation being open to the possibility that either side is telling the truth even if you have a long history with the accused person and don’t know the accuser.

I know it takes a lot of courage for an abuse victim to speak publicly about just the very fact that s/he was victimized (details or no details). Shifflett should be commended for that example, as well.

Which makes me think about Joshua Harris. Didn’t he say he was a victim of sexual abuse? In retrospect, I have to think the environment among the CLC leaders must have been very difficult for a sympathetic pastor to begin to open up about his own abuse. Maybe that explains why he didn’t build on that statement. Shifflett mentioned a church leader (teacher?) he confronted for…propositioning him? I can’t recall exactly…but the leader confessed to other leaders about what he was doing, and the man was simply released from his job with a severance package; and when a Christian school hired the man, Shifflet went to the school and informed them about the public confession – and the school retained the man anyway. It really does appear that in a crazy number of cases, church leaders tend to support the abusers. And with that thought, I can only imagine JH must have been stifled, rather than encouraged and supported.

Shifflett mentioned a church leader (teacher?) he confronted for…propositioning him? I can’t recall exactly…but the leader confessed to other leaders about what he was doing, and the man was simply released from his job with a severance package; and when a Christian school hired the man, Shifflet went to the school and informed them about the public confession – and the school retained the man anyway.

Shiflett said a story along those lines and also that it happened I believe an earlier time so he had 2 incidents happened to him.

This is the longer video that I also suggest people listed to by Shiflett. This was a Sunday message he preached. Well worth listening to.

Lots of good points including a command we have as believers to do justice. Pastor Shiflett also talks here about how he didn’t know the woman who reported this crime while Giovenelli was what a close friend. Depite his friendship with Giovenilli and despite Giovenelli denying doing this when Shiflett and Giovenelli talked on the phone Shiflett said he was still going to investigate.

Shiflett could have done like a lot of leaders have done with C.J. Mahaney where they claim to “know” C.J. Mahaney vs. the person bringing an accusation and leaders then use this “knowing C.J.” as an excuse to not investigate a claim.

Shiflett indicated he had been molested when he was a teenager by a young preacher staying at his family’s house. Shiflett used the term “preacher boy” to describe this young pastor. This young preacher was convicted and is now a registered sex offender. What I think really upset Shiflett is that churches had known that this young pastor had molested others and did nothing about it. It wasn’t the first known case.

Then later Shiflett also indicated that when he was a young pastor in Atlanta a respected seasoned pastor in his 50’s propositioned Shiflett. Shiflett reported it though was hard to do being an unknown person vs. this known older pastor. The pastor stepped down but then became and administrator of a school and depsite Shiflett going and warning the school they kept this pastor that molested him on staff.

Thus Shiflett used the sad experiences for good in not putting up with Giovenelli.

Todd,
Thanks for the link above. Do you or anyone else know of the link to the statement of support drafted by Al Moeller regarding Mahaney, containing factually inaccurate information and co-signed by Mark Dever and Ligon Duncan?

Todd- I think your skepticism is wise. If the man is truly sorry there will some admission in some fashion of an apology for the way he slapped all the SGM victims under the proverbial bus.

People are furious and fed up and he must be getting pressured. This could be merely politics and damage control and we have every right (and responsibility IMO) to regard it as such until there is a specific apology related to SGM/Mahaney, and/or strong support for Mark Galli’s call for an investigation (Christianity Today editorial).

Never the less, like Paul said in Philippians, whether from good motives or bad, at least the gospel was being preached and Paul would rejoice in that. So no matter what AM’s motives, at least he is saying the right sort of things, finally.

“Todd- I think your skepticism is wise. If the man is truly sorry there will some admission in some fashion of an apology for the way he slapped all the SGM victims under the proverbial bus.” (5years)

I don’t think most of us came to see the light about SGM overnight and I do not expect Mohler to, either. I think it is entirely possible to be truly sorry about what has happened within the the SBC and not see its applicability to SGM. I am assuming he genuinely believes CJ and so he probably does not see the scenarios the same. It’s not like Mohler’s statement I dictates that he sees how blind loyalty can cloud leaders’ judgement when it comes to abuse. He is focused on decisions related to specific events and how they handled them. It might also mean that now that his eyes have been opened to the SBC corruptions, he will be better able to see SGM’s. It could also means that he has started to see SGM’s issues and is privately appealing to CJ. The truth is that it will make some time to know how Mohler will respond.

Although, this could be a shrewd pivot to protect his brand. It could also be the beginning of a work of God in his heart. I do not know which it is. I hope and pray for the latter, with eyes wide open.

I don’t think most of us came to see the light about SGM overnight and I do not expect Mohler to, either. I think it is entirely possible to be truly sorry about what has happened within the the SBC and not see its applicability to SGM. I am assuming he genuinely believes CJ and so he probably does not see the scenarios the same. It’s not like Mohler’s statement I dictates that he sees how blind loyalty can cloud leaders’ judgement when it comes to abuse. He is focused on decisions related to specific events and how they handled them.

When someone like Mohler is in “a bubble” like he is the I am sure it is quite hard for him to see hypocrisy like with C.J. Mahaney. I am sure “confirmation bias” is another reason Mohler has neglected all the evidence. Hopefully it will be the beginning of a work of God as you say.

I’m not sure if I ever wrote this before, but when the issues with SGM and Mahaney came out, my then pastor in SGM said that he and almost every pastor has had to deal with this issue (sexual abuse in the church). He didn’t report it to police either… nor did others. My point for saying this is that ALL of them did what Mahaney did to one extent or another. And it’s not just in SGM.

I believe the reason Mahaney gets so much support is because if Mahaney loses his job, they all do.

Evangelicals have a major problem on their hands. The vast majority of pastors all believe that they should handle serious sin (sexual abuse, physical abuse, etc.) internally within the church. They are all wrong… and now we are beginning to see the fallout.

If its related to a pastor being an adulterer, they get it and they usually get canned. However, not reporting crimes to the police is a gaping hole with their understanding of the church and the role that government, which Jesus rules over, plays in society.

Rachel denhollander has nailed it with these guys. They are all on the same party boat together. If Mahaney fails, they will all fall. She is calling them to accountability.

Change is going to be hard. The figure heads in evangelical christianity have taught and have done what Mahaney has been called in to account for.

Hopefully God will continue cleaning house with these men who have a very small understanding of scripture and common sense and relaxed them with men who are on fire for Jesus and not on fire for their paycheck.

” My point for saying this is that ALL of them did what Mahaney did to one extent or another. And it’s not just in SGM.”

BTW, it’s not just churches. It’s ALL organizations [ INCLUDING POLICE DEPARTMENTS and SCHOOLS/COLLEGES ] that have protected their own.

My first thought, if I suddenly find out a good friend of mine is a more grievous sinner than I thought, is NOT to call the police. My first thought is to try and handle it myself – for better or worse.

Well Somewhere….. at least you tried to get some clarity before walking. I am sure you could sense the resistance to change. I really thought that the last few years would bring about some change to the culture but the loyalty to SGM limits them. A lot of good people have left.

” I apologize to you, MY CHURCH, for a response that was defensive instead of one that invited conversation and learning,”

With regards to megachurch leaders, including Mahaney and the rest, here lies the problem…PRIDE.

These guys ALL think it’s THEIR church. I started it. I own it. It’s mine. All we are today is ultimately because of ME.

Jesus is always left somewhere in the back of the auditorium… if he is there at all.

When you are then the “owner” of the church it’s difficult to oust the man who led it from the beginning.

I’m getting to the point in my life where I’m finding it difficult to sit underneath any man’s teachings. I just don’t trust them any more.

I’ve been listening to Joe Fouch(sp?) From Calvary chapel in Philadelphia lately. He seems to be breath of fresh air. He doesn’t ask for money. All he does is read the bible and provides biblical insights to scriptures… maybe I could visit a place like that. Anyone ever hear of him?

Brent has a new post on his blog reporting that Al Mohler is now requesting an independent, third-party investigation of CJ and SGC churches. Maybe the statute of limitations (of benefits) from the $200,000 gifts to Mohler have expired? With more of a national spotlight focused on CJ, CLC, and SGC churches, will they be able to pull off another biased, scam investigation?

For what it’s worth, when a questionable situation arose in the early to mid 1990’s, one of the pastors named in the lawsuit and often trashed on this blog said to my friend, “It’s not for the church to determine if a crime has been committed. Only the police can do that. We don’t do an investigation, they do”.

just saying….In that case, I hope a police and legal investigation ensued. And I hope said church members identified the depths of the crimes and perpetrators in order to protect their fellow congregants.

In regards to the references to the upheaval within the SBC..their issues do intersect with the tangled webs within Sovereign Grace Churches. In two weeks the Southern Baptist Convention will be held –there is much discussion, debate, heartache. Bottom line: The Fundamentalist see the push of Calvinism (speared some years ago by Mahaney, SGM, and SGM$)actively infiltrating. Russell Means (heads Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission) brings and seeks to enforce liberal “progressive” agendas. Some of the Baptist churches (including 1st Baptist Dallas) have ceased supporting the ELC due to their bend to cultural relativism. —- What does all this have to do with Sovereign Grace Churches?

Al Mohlers recent statements that the MeToo movement has “come to American evangelicals,some of my friends and brothers in Christianity. This moment has come to me….” He also stated that in 25 years as SBCS president, he didnot see this coming.(!!!) – As Jenn G stated above this could mean if his eyes have been opened to the SBC corruption he will be better able to see SGM’s issues and is privately appealing to CJ…or….A shrewd pivot to protect his brand.

The rising and nationally affirmed voice of Rachael Denhollender calling for an Independent Investigation of SGC has greatly rattled the big dogs in SGC. They and SBC certainly donot want to be viewed in the same camp as Larry Nassar, the University, and all those who participated in shocking cover-ups.The entire nation has watched all these details unfold. (Rachael D also brought to light SGM’s molestation coverups and SGM uber congregant control while interviewing on Fox News). Rachael D has not given in to SGC’s patronizing and deflecting responses to her… Are they and Al Mohler seeking to seemingly align with her declarations while not truthfully exposing what has occurred on their watch??? I hope and pray all eyes and hearts will be open and truthful~

I donot understand how Mohler has not seen this mountain of destructive coverups coming in the past 25 years. I wonder if Al knows about the most recent SGM coverup: Recall the family from the SGM church in Minnesota under R Gamache. Long-time respected members, womens group leader, home group leaders….After much prayer and reading about the SGM sexual abuse cases and issues they humbly went to their pastors with concerns about how SGM had handled the sexual court cases etc. They sought to ask questions on why an Independent Investigation was not being allowed. Pastors maligned them, shut down their voices…with broken hearts they ultimately left the church they had been a part of for many years.The foundational pollutant of manipulative control continues in SGM/SGC. Sadly, SGC has yet to recognize, admit, or discern, the destructive errors in their foundation.

In the big picture, corruption is being exposed in our world in every area. Corruption is ‘decay from the inside, out’. I pray to see and seek what is true, while not becoming entangled in the hundreds of webs. I pray Gods people, we all will seek to remain alert and discerning to any scriptural compromise which manifests in any form. I pray each of us will clearly know His Voice: “This the way, walk ye in it…”

“The rising and nationally affirmed voice of Rachael Denhollender calling for an Independent Investigation of SGC has greatly rattled the big dogs in SGC. They and SBC certainly donot want to be viewed in the same camp as Larry Nassar, the University, and all those who participated in shocking cover-ups.”

Jenn, yes I realize that. Thank you. Please note that I began my post by saying that Brent wrote that Al Mohler is now requesting an independent, third-party investigation of CJ and SGC churches [emphasis on “Brent wrote.”] So it is Brent who is trying to connect some dots in the title of his piece, not me. But I do think Brent is correct in connecting those dots, as Mohler was not going to say it explicitly.

They sought to ask questions on why an Independent Investigation was not being allowed. Pastors maligned them, shut down their voices…with broken hearts they ultimately left the church they had been a part of for many years.The foundational pollutant of manipulative control continues in SGM/SGC. Sadly, SGC has yet to recognize, admit, or discern, the destructive errors in their foundation.

Good points. Sadly as has been typical during their history SGM Leaders don’t do well with disagreement or people questioning. They see it as a threat and even like to call it “gossip” or “slander.”

This type of culture apparently was a big factor in them growing until blogs like this came out where people were able to learn about the true Sovereign Grace culture and realize that they weren’t the only ones with questions.

“The foundational pollutant of manipulative control continues in SGM/SGC. Sadly, SGC has yet to recognize, admit, or discern, the destructive errors in their foundation.”

That was very well articulated!

I want to say again, that making the SGM problem about not calling the cops is not understanding the problem. Decades ago with the worst confessed crimes we said “glory halleleuia, you are forgiven, the power of God has set you free, victory in Jesus, the kingdom now, the power of the Holy Spirit will guard you, etc etc etc”. That’s how it was in charismania. For good measure we would bind up and cast out a few Peretti demon strongholds, and take the person and the church and the city for God.

I would hope we are all wiser now, and have learned a whole lot, and I think the church as a whole is starting to “get it” about abuse and pedophila. But some of the most godly, selfless, loving and devoted caring church leaders (with low salaries and no greed) kept sin and perversion and crime in the church, in the domain where God chooses to work out redemption, or so we thought. You never called the cops.

That isn’t and wasn’t SGM’s heart the past few decades once the early excitement of the Jesus movement wore off. As the fine quote from Waters says, it was a foundation of manipulative control. Leader worship was essential to the control, hence the cover ups and protecting reputations.

And by the way, when somebody spent 25 years supporting that foundation and walking in the manipulative control himself, and tries to make it all now about not calling cops and covering up badly bungled pastoral ineptness, he hasn’t gotten to where he needs to be. One can only hope he is on the way and can someday repent of his own part in the foundation. (I know he reads here). I know it was painful to me to think how much support we gave it with time and money and energy, that took away from my children. God has blessed and restored us and the kids are doing well, but I will probably always feel regret.

We all write a lot of stuff here. But I’ve been think about what it actually does. Sure some people find encouragement
From others as they share some of their own hurts. However, we’ve been doing this for some time now. Should we be doing more. We’re all already joined together. I’m a Survivor!! Are you a survivor? Collectively we are a people of power! Should we all come up with a time and place to meet each other? We could order SGM Survivor tee shirts and use our stage names on the back. Should we then march and picket at these churches to suggest resignations? Just a thought. I’m in.

Checkmate, Jenn G — Maybe a wave of pink SGMSurvivor tee shirts in Big D would make an impact:)
5Years, I am thankful to hear you and your family are doing well…to know God is faithful in His redemption for us is such a wonderful manifestation of His love and Goodness….

As Proffy pointed out, Al Mohler did say that he would now be requesting Independent Investigations if needed….for him to even publicly insert those words in his statement is fairly significant. It is good. And yet — Mohler does probably have some degree of voice with the Denhollenders, since they are both of the Calvinist branch in the SB. How would this shake down beneficially for the neo-Calvinist Baptists, and Sovereign Grace Churches??

If SGC ever goes through an Independent Investigation…ok…but unless they truly SEE they have built upon a foundation of manipulative control, their attributes of control will continue to manifest in various destructive measures. They will continue to ‘side with perpetrators’ in some form, because they are continuing to perpetrate control and manipulation, in some form, upon Gods people.

Those of you who think a 200K donation would sway Mohler–200K is a drop in the bucket anymore for the operating expenses of a large organization so I really don’t think it has much to do with anything.

However, Mohler needs to realize his part in promoting and defending CJ/SGM and repent. What Mohler and others have done seems worse to me than what Patterson has done. I like Mohler and hope he has the integrity to admit he was wrong. Will be interesting to see! I attended a SBC church until recently as I moved (was in a SGM church for 3 years back in the late 90’s) Rachel Denhollander is a god send along with Boz T.

One more thing to say that is totally heartbreaking– my adult daughter has recently been diagnosed with a dissociative disorder. I never used to “buy into” repressed memories but now that I have researched it I totally believe it. These children’s brains literally fragment when subjected to horrific abuse. We still do not know where and when she was abused and working with a therapist. Her father is my primary suspect (we are divorced) but yet she was in Fairfax Covenant for 3 years from 97-00 in the children’s ministry and present at Celebration which I believe was ’98 or maybe ’99. The Celebration stories are hard to believe–but holy moly something happened to my daughter and if it was at Celebration or at FCC I am going to have a fit! We may sadly never know what happened.

Lee, I cannot tell you how sorry I am to hear about your daughter. I cannot imagine the burden you all bear.

Waters, it wont be feasible for me to be in Dallas, but I hope some can make it. There are now enough current and former members to make a difference, I believe. I hope CLC members are also organizing to let a voice be heard with calls for an independent investigation, too.

Lee, I am so sorry to hear of the pain that your daughter and you are experiencing. I wish I had words that would make it better, or would, at least bring comfort. If those words exist, I don’t know them.

I am glad you are there for your daughter; that you believe her and that you are letting her know it. I hope she finds comfort and peace in this hard journey of life.

SBC statement on dumping Paige Patterson … no retirement, no home, no compensation. CJ Mahaney is probably not going to sleep well any time soon? Why? Because he HAS to know that his days in the SBC and playing with the big dogs is finally coming to an end.

CJ will take his toys away from the SBC and walk away. He will get his retirement and the perks, but his world will now be VERY small (read that to mean SGM love only).

Gutless Prater strikes again. No integrity, no transparency, hiding behind pre-written emails and press releases, no leadership or care for the abused children, victims and lowly lay people. SGC’s abuse protection guidelines only happened after the fact, not before. Total hypocrisy Prater’s part as well as the pastoral cult crowd of SGC. Judgement is coming and it’s coming soon. There has to be a stop to the ongoing spiritual abuse, deception, facades, etc. Mr. Prator, Tear down that wall!

Understandably-thanks for pointing out that article. CJ, Gary, and SGM/SGC in general get prominent (unflattering) mentions. And as TrueBlue pointed out, Mark Prater gets a chance to say things we all know are meaningless.

And Rachael Denhollander’s former church has apparently had a change of heart: “Officials also said that SGC pastors will no longer be speaking at their church while accusations against them remain unanswered.”

Lee: We were part of the Fairfax franchise during that period. That was the end of the Phillips / temporarily Shank / brought in Mullery era.
(Many years later, while a part of a “normal” church, I was able to vote on a new pastor – what a stunning comparison.)
Looking back, I can’t believe the complete control and lack of openness all the while proclaiming accountability.
I’m sorry to hear about your daughter’s struggles.
That place was so messed up.

Lee, in case your daughter can’t say it, THANK YOU for getting your daughter to a therapist (as opposed to taking her to a pastor with 9 months training.) I can’t begin to imagine the pain you experience as you see your precious baby react to the pain she experienced. Thank you that you are caring for her. Do you have any support system (friends, family, support group) caring for you? That job is too big to take on alone.

Hi everyone! I posted here once or twice a long time ago, under a different name. My mom used to be pretty involved here and on Refuge, but I won’t say who she is unless she posts again.

I’m so happy to see that this site is not only still up, but still active. It’s been immensely helpful to send people (therapists, friends, etc) here when they ask about “the cult I grew up in.” My parents joined the Pasadena church before I was born. I think they might have helped found it. And we left when I was 19, about 8 years ago.

Something Kris (I think) said really resonated with me. The big scandals about sexual abuse are only one problem. I personally don’t have a very dramatic story. My family wasn’t very heavy handed in enforcing the church teachings, but they still left a deep imprint. The psychological control and torture was slow, mundane and frankly boring. (Was it C. S. Lewis who talked about “the banality of evil”?) I don’t remember a lot of details about what happened, although I have ptsd so a lot of that could just be repression.

I always felt a bit lonely since there aren’t many people on here who grew up in SGM but I do appreciate hearing the effect on people’s kids. So thanks for sharing, anyone who has.

By the way, I choose my new name because well, I’m a trans guy, and also I felt like I was being raised by the church to be a “handmaid”, as in Handmaid’s Tale. There were immensely restrictive gender roles especially on girls (and I was living as a girl at the time). For a long time I didn’t even realize I was trans–I thought my discomfort with certain gender roles was just a reaction to trauma. But here I am.

TransmasculineHandmaid, as a sometimes visitor to the site, I bid you welcome. I am a father of three daughters who have journeyed further than I from the effects of their time in SGM. Each of them has struggled with some success against the self-image problems their respective childhoods and adolescences in the church have caused them. I remain well behind, acknowledging the significant psychological denial I experience about SGM but still only able to put together fragmented thoughts about my years of committed membership to various churches in the movement. I see myself more as a perpetrator than a victim.

I think the effects of the doctrine of complementarianism on woman raised in the movement, both in how it contributes to the sexual abuse of children AND its effect of the self-image of women (or trans men raised as women) who can’t or won’t fall into the traditional roles laid out by this vision of gender division, bears more exploration. How we thought (or think) a separate-but-equal paradigm might actually engender anything other than profound inequality seems absurd in the light of the years of Jim Crow in our nation.

I wish I could more meaningfully contribute to that exploration, but other than tremendous regret at my failure to care for my daughters properly in this environment, I lack insight. Perhaps others further along might post their thoughts.

Hi TransmasculineHandmaid, I was getting ready to say hello, again (I have a feeling I remember you, though I don’t remember that you were transitioning, at the time, so maybe you commented before that, or maybe my memory is off- good chance, but I just have a feeling I recall the few times you commented, and maybe even remember the name you commented under. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but just in case, the “again”.) Anyway, I was getting ready to say hello, then I read what Ian said, and I thought, “Dang, I cannot improve upon that, at all!” (Not like that ever stopped me from talking, though. ;) )

Anyway, as someone who joined SGM as a grown up (I was 19, but still, I was the responsible one making the decision to go there), I want to say that I am sorry that I was part of a group that communicated to you, and hundreds (or was it thousands) of others, that I thought we had gender roles to play. I wish I could go back through time, and untie many of the bonds we tied onto our own backs, or the backs of our children. (Oh, how do I wish!) To think of the pain that was caused!

Thanks for coming here to say hi. And whether you are who I am thinking of or not, this forum is your home, too, whether you ever comment or just read or barely visit. Kris and Jim have been very gracious to let it continue for those who need it. Just wanted to remind you that you are welcome here, anytime. And thanks for saying hi.

The horrible details where Paige Patrerson was involved at SBTS continue to trickle out. The worst the SBC issues, the less they will be willing to stick their neck out for CJ and SGM. Immanuel Baptist, Rachel Denhollander’s former church, in Louisville, stopped short of calling for an independent investigation, but they did say that SGM leaders would no longer be preaching there while questions remain unanswered.

Ian MacAgy, thank you for the welcome and the thoughtful response! However things were in the past, I’m sure your daughters are lucky to have the current you (I hope I’m not overstepping by saying that).

Stunned, also thank you for the welcome! I try to remember that adults who joined a cult are just as much victims, but at the same time I appreciate your wanting to take whatever responsibility may be there. Complicated stuff.

I posted as Never More or something, I think. Feel free to shorten my name to…I don’t know, Hand? It is rather long lol. I wasn’t transitioning back then. I barely knew that trans people existed. But I remember you, so I’m happy you remember me even though I didn’t post much. :)

Lee,
I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. We attended Fairfax as well and our children were molested during that time. We are still unraveling all the damage done to our family, what a horrific misrepresentation of the gospel those leaders, (past and present) presented to the church co