Assaulted: Civil Rights Under Fire - Documentary

I'm new to your board so I hope you don't mind me introducing myself to you in this way.

My partner and I are Emmy award winning producers from Northern California. Two years ago we started working on a film about street gangs invading rural California. Due to my repeated contact with gang members, it was recommend that I obtain a CCW permit - which I did. The process led to me learn about the backward gun laws of California compared to the rest of the Union. Through research I discovered that there has never been a positive documentary about the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership in America.

Assaulted: Civil Rights Under Fire will be such a film. Supported by the CalGuns Foundation and Second Amendment Foundation, this PTV/PBS documentary will look at how California is the front line in gun control battle. The film will look at the current assault weapon ban proposals in California and Washington, DC, as well as, CCW permitting across the USA.

Here are a few links to learn more about the film:

http://kck.st/OllEYn (Our Kickstarter funding campaign where you can see the trailer)

http://www.AssaultedFilm.com (The project website)

http://www.examiner.com/article/docu...rms-under-fire (An article from the Examiner)

As part of your research and possible use in your film I will urge you to read the following report available on the web with a search.

97th Congress
2d Session COMMITTEE PRINT
THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS
REPORT
OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION
OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION -
FEBRUARY 1982

DeadPatriot

September 11, 2012, 06:01 PM

Thanks, we will.

Blackstone

September 11, 2012, 06:42 PM

Best of luck with this project, I hope you keep us updated with your progress

bergmen

September 11, 2012, 06:51 PM

I donated to your kickstarter campaign. I get a 404 error when I try to access the Examiner article.

When do you think the film will be ready?

Dan

Sky

September 11, 2012, 06:53 PM

Yes Sir welcome on board. Always good to have someone who researches.

Jorg Nysgerrig

September 11, 2012, 07:05 PM

I get a 404 error when I try to access the Examiner article.
This is likely because they are just cutting and pasting this message on every gun board they can find and didn't realize that some forum software has a nasty habit of truncating the link text of URLs. It's fine on the initial forum, but when you just blindly paste the message, it eats the underlying URL.

What I presume is the intended link is below:
http://www.examiner.com/article/documentary-to-show-civil-right-to-arms-under-fire

VVelox

September 11, 2012, 08:37 PM

Hmm. Interesting.

Although reading through the Kickstarter stuff, I think the one things that is sort of skipped over is the issues with racism post Jim Crow era. This is interestingly what created the handgun ban in Chicago in the 1980s. From my understanding it happened like this... The original Daley wanted to force the poor blacks into public housing all in a few areas and basically ring it all with police and deny them protection. While the public housing stuff took off, he was out of office before he could complete the rest of it, which was completed after his death.

VVelox

September 11, 2012, 08:44 PM

Another thing it skips over is the Rodney King riots and Korean shop owners arming themselves for protection.

This is something that is extremely notable as it is a great example for the government loosing control of an area and individuals needing to protect either themselves or their lively hood.

DeadPatriot

September 11, 2012, 09:40 PM

Here is a little more on the film. This is an interview I had today on GOA RADIO (the interview can be found on the last 1/3 of the program) http://www.stickam.com/viewMedia.do?mId=193658879 Hope the link works this time.

Cesiumsponge

September 11, 2012, 09:53 PM

Statistically I believe DOJ studies showed 1-2% of recovered firearms from criminal activities were "assault weapons" under the broad term defined by the AWB, and such specific, expensive, and questionable legislation to go after just that minute 1-2% of weapons that constituted the overall haul of what they were recovering made absolutely no statistical difference. It showed it wasn't about saving lives at all. This is the most insulting part of all.

Lets try devil's advocate and replace "assault weapon" with something else: "American's don't NEED luxury and exotic vehicles. They serve no practical purpose as transportation. Therefore I will ban all luxury and exotic vehicles over $100,000 to reduce DUIs because these vehicles can weigh as much as an SUV, while others have over 500hp and can approach or exceed 200mph"

Will this noticeably reduce the DUI count if I ban the absolute smallest minority of vehicle type on the road, arbitrarily? No. If I truly wanted to reduce DUIs, would I attack this problem in a different manner? Yes. Is there a poignant arrogance in trying to telling people what they need rather than letting them purchase what they want? Yes.

It would also be worth mentioning, when on the topic of CCW, how many NICS checks resulted in a denial. The FBI has statistics on total NICS from November 30, 1998 to Aug 31 2012. The total number of checks made were 151,524,077. The total number of NICS denials was 951,418.

That works out to one denial per 159 applicants. No one ever makes the news for being denied a firearm because they were a criminal and failed the test. The news never really mentions that close to a million potential crazies and criminals have been denied. It's quite possible those people have gone on to acquire firearms in an illegal manner and committed crimes. I would actually be VERY interested in statistics along those lines.

SOPTV is our PBS presenting station. Once the film is made, they get PBS and or the affiliates to air the film.

Cesiumsponge

September 12, 2012, 12:52 PM

I'm not sure how nuts and bolts you plan to get, but the Center For Disease Control keeps track of fatalities from firearms and further distinguishes them by age, gender, and splits them into accidents and homicides. When you subtract suicides, the number gets noticably smaller. Although the stats don't distinguish, "homicide" includes justifiable homicide, which is the term for justifiable use of lethal force for self-defense. Unfortunately good shoots and criminal activity is lumped together. Regardless, there are an estimated 250+ million guns in the US and the per capita fatality rate from gun homicides isn't even in the top 10 list. Violent crimes, by contrast, is much lower than countries like the UK with strict gun control. Of course, correlation does not equal causation but its an interesting comparison.

It might also be worth noting the 1934 National Firearms Act that regulated machine guns, short barreled rifles and shotguns ,sound suppressors, and other similar items as a way to "fight gangsters". It was a de facto ban, considering it was passed as a "revenue-generating" scheme for the treasury department. It imposed a $200 tax stamp per item to be registered. This was at a time when you could pick up a suppressor out of a Sears & Roebuck catalog for a couple dollars. Calculating for average wages, the cost of goods, and reversing inflation 78 years, it made it utterly unaffordable except for the wealthy.

I'm on a phone right now but I'll dig up some links to unbiased stats when I'm on a proper computer. What are you planning on doing up in the Seattle area?

Owen Sparks

September 12, 2012, 02:18 PM

This is a straight quote from the Democratic Party platform of 2012:

Right to own firearms is subject to reasonable regulation
We recognize that the individual right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we will preserve Americans' Second Amendment right to own and use firearms. We believe that the right to own firearms is subject to reasonable regulation. We understand the terrible consequences of gun violence; it serves as a reminder that life is fragile, and our time here is limited and precious. We believe in an honest, open national conversation about firearms. We can focus on effective enforcement of existing laws, especially strengthening our background check system, and we can work together to enact commonsense improvements--like reinstating the assault weapons ban and closing the gun show loophole--so that guns do not fall into the hands of those irresponsible, law-breaking few.

Look at that last line again:

--so that guns do not fall into the hands of those irresponsible, law-breaking few.

The name for this philosophy on governance is called COLLECTIVISM.
It subjugates everyone to the level of the least common denominator. In other words, it treats everyone in society as no better than the weakest links, the criminals and the mentally unstable. Using this logic the way to keep guns out of the wrong hands is to keep them out of ALL hands starting with yours.

DeadPatriot

September 12, 2012, 09:55 PM

Let hope we can educate a few to avoid that philosophy.

Cesiumsponge

September 12, 2012, 10:27 PM

Here is the CDC's mortality data for 2009: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf

I'm not the greatest at processing data, but I lifted a few tidbits:
There were 2,437,163 registered deaths in 2009.
The age-adjusted death rate, which takes the aging of the population into account, was 741.1 deaths per 100,000 U.S. standard population.

The 15 leading causes of deaths in the USA, accounting for 80.7% of all deaths (pg 13). I superimposed it with the total deaths offered here (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/LCWK9_2009.pdf):

Page 92 breaks down a table a little further
Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms (*U01.4,X93-X95) , 11,493 deaths
Legal intervention (Y35,Y89.0) 395 deaths. [This figure requires more investigation. It seems incredibly low that law enforcement PLUS a civilian population only resulted in 395 legal deaths for an entire year....also how is it a legal intervention resulting in justifiable death when there is one individual listed under the age of 1? Maybe "legal intervention" means something other than what I assume it means]

Death by criminal homicide is 3.7 per 100,000 people. That places it quite low on the list of all the other things that can kill you. If we want to include accidental firearm deaths, we'd be up to 3.9. These are unintentional deaths (ie not suicides, which are intentional). Transport accidents (V01-V99,Y85) is 11.8, making the act of driving, being a passenger, or simply being on the road 300% more fatal than the potential of dying unintentionally (ie not self-inflicted) by a firearm. Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59,Y85-Y86) in totality claim 38.4 lives per 100,000 peple. If we look at cancer, 184.9. Heart disease? 195.2. All causes of medical ailments, many preventable total 427.4.

This is in a country where the FBI did over 151.5 million NICS checks from 1998 to 2012. You don't do a NICS check unless you're buying a gun. I've never done multiple gun purchases so I don't know if one NICS check can satisfy multiple purchases in the same visit. If that's the case, there might be substantially more guns sold than 151.5 million in just 14 years alone. I can't seem to find reliable estimates, but I've seen figures in the 250-300 million range as the totality of firearms that exist in the USA. At this point, since there is no registration, it's impossible to get an estimate or honest idea of how many guns there are, or how many people will admit in surveys to owning them. For a country "littered with guns", statistically we're doing pretty well. I couldn't find much on comparison to other countries because every country keeps records differently. The infamous Wikipedia had this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate but if you sorted by ascending or descending order, the numbers are quite different than the raw CDC figures and the US places quite low, grouped within other first world countries.

Owen Sparks

September 12, 2012, 10:39 PM

Gun control is NOT about crime but about keeping you from being able to resist the government. If it were about crime the focus would be on handguns which are used in about half of all homicides, not 'assault rifles' as rifles are used in only about 3% of all murders, that is roughly the same percentage as bare hands.

zorro45

September 12, 2012, 10:45 PM

I for one would very much like to watch a balanced presentation of these important issues on PBS, favorable towards 2A would be too much to hope for!

fanchisimo

September 12, 2012, 11:48 PM

Welcome DeadPatriot, and you might have to do a 2-dvd set/mini-series if you want to use the volumes of information the forum offers. :D Best of luck to you and you have my support.

fanchisimo

September 12, 2012, 11:52 PM

DeadPatriot, I forgot to ask but have you tried any other forums besides this The High Road?

MistWolf

September 13, 2012, 12:31 AM

I'm glad you're doing this project. However, the assault on our rights is not an assault on our civil rights. It is an assault on the rights given to us by our creator, whoever and whatever anyone believes that creator to be. Civil rights are granted by the .gov and as such, can be taken away by the .gov. The rights as listed in the Bill of Rights are not granted to us by the .gov. They are rights the .gov has no right to take away

DeadPatriot

September 14, 2012, 01:45 AM

CesiumSponge - thanks for the research.

Zerro45 - I promise it will.

Franchisimo - about 20 so far. Anita and I spend all our free time answering posts - it great to have all this positive feedback!

MistWolf - Yes. Amen.

ugaarguy

September 14, 2012, 02:11 AM

I've never done multiple gun purchases so I don't know if one NICS check can satisfy multiple purchases in the same visit. If that's the case, there might be substantially more guns sold than 151.5 million in just 14 years alone.
The dealer can list up to five firearms on a single 4473. So, yes, one NICS check can, and very often does (from personal experience in firearms retail) satisfy multiple firearms that are part of a single purchase by the same person. The NICS check numbers also exclude the substantial number of purchases made by carry permit holders in states where the carry permit background check procedure is more extensive than the NICS check, and therefor serves as a NICS exemption.

Cesiumsponge

September 14, 2012, 02:21 PM

I'm hoping you get to incorporate some credible testimony from industry experts and law enforcement on stopping power and mystical one-shot stops. Many in the anti-gun movement would argue a single shot flintock is more than enough to stop an advancing criminal. Many in law enforcement often undergo undue criticism from the laypublic for firing "excessively" because the laypublic has been conditioned to believe the Hollywood depiction of death by firearm as quick and simple (as well as other myths like Wild West violence, etc).

Using this mindset, they crafted the modern layman's idea of assault weapons and the adjective "semi-automatic" as a lethality modifier to handgun and rifles which are 50-100+ years old in design. When you ask a layperson on the streets, these terms set off a deep emotional upwelling as a response, not a logical one. Even the lawmakers are guilty, as you pointed out in the trailer with the infamous Carolyn "shoulder thing that goes up" MCcarthy, crafter of the 1994 AWB. The evidence for a pro-2a case is overwhelming but packaging it tactfully to an audience of hopefully open-minded fence sitters will be a difficult task. I wish you the best of luck!

Does anyone here recall a few years ago there was unearthed footage from the floor vote on the 1968 GCA amendment that rammed through and the vote seemed questionable? I can't seem to turn it up and researching on a phone is slow.

DeadPatriot

September 15, 2012, 06:10 PM

Hi, this is Anita, the other half of DeadPatriot. Cesium, and OwenSparks, thank you very much for this information. I am going over it now. I can see I have a helluva lotta research to do but it sure is great to have your kind help! Thanks!

Does CCW cause higher death rates or are CCW given more to states with higher murder rates?

That is easily answered by looking not at cross sectional data but panel data for state murder rates.

sorry, but CCW does not mean a safer state. That is pretty well documented by statistical analysis and forgotten by the NRA.

Sorry, but Professors Lott, Mustard, and Professor Gary Kleck would disagree with you....and their research has been pretty exhaustive.

HEAVY METAL 1

September 16, 2012, 01:09 PM

OP,

You may want to expose how the GCA of 1968 was crafted closely to the Nazi gun control act. Try this: http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/GCA_68.htm

wild cat mccane

September 16, 2012, 02:01 PM

No. Gun control wasn't crafted after nazi policy.

Actually, the professors (funny how some gun people academia them until they say something that supports their cause) aren't widely cited. You can easily find out how I know this.

Go to google. Go to scholar. Look them up. It will say how often they are cited by other peer reviewed articles.

Take my state, Utah. We have some of the most lax rules on the book. Our murder by gun is higher than...MA with the most strict (for example).

Derry 1946

September 16, 2012, 02:22 PM

You may find this article useful:
http://www.guncite.com/journals/vandhist.html#fn142
Hopefully, the link works. It gives an overview of gun control (and other weapons bans) under early kings of England through the British colonial period and the founding of the USA. It emphasizes the role of the common people as a militia against foreign invasion and repression by the government, as an alternative and an antidote to the perils of a standing army, which was seen as a potential tool of domestic tyranny. This gives some historical context to the 2A " militia" language that often trips up the casual reader (which is compounded by primitive grammar). Good luck.

Tommygunn

September 16, 2012, 07:31 PM

You may want to expose how the GCA of 1968 was crafted closely to the Nazi gun control act. Try this: http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/GCA_68.htm

No. Gun control wasn't crafted after nazi policy.

The Nazis passed a gun law in 1938 that imposed a "sporting test" on civilian possession of guns. This was copied by Senator Christopher Dodd (father of the later politician) and was incorporated into the Gun Control Act of 1968.
The history of this is well-known and researched.

HEAVY METAL 1

September 16, 2012, 10:03 PM

Thank you TG! I wasn't peeking out from under the tinfiol when I posted about the Nazis. The GCA is nearly parallel to the Nazi act. The congressman requested the Nazi Gun Act from the Lib of Congress, THAT's on record.

I think that needs to be exposed more widely.

Librarian

September 16, 2012, 10:31 PM

It will say how often they are cited by other peer reviewed articles.I suggest that is not a usable measure.

Academics who support gun control, in the last 40 or so years, outnumber those who offer evidence against its efficacy. They would hardly cite with approval papers which undermine their own hypotheses.

Take my state, Utah. We have some of the most lax rules on the book. Our murder by gun is higher than...MA with the most strict (for example).For counter examples, see http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls - relative 'laxness' of firearms laws does not correlate at all with the rate of homicide using firearms.

See also WISQARS (http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe), select Homicide, firearm, group by state - for 2009, UT is lower than MA, and so are Iowa, Idaho, Hawaii, Minnesota, Maine, South Dakota, Rhode Island and Oregon.

California is reputed to have very strict laws, but is 29th, higher than Nebraska, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Colorado, Montana, Connecticut, Alaska, New York, New Jersey, Kentucky, West Virginia, Ohio, Kansas, Virginia, Arizona, Nevada, Indiana and Pennsylvania (as well as Massachusetts and those noted as lower than MA).

wannabeagunsmith

September 17, 2012, 12:13 AM

Glad you mentioned the LA Riots in there. That was one of the Second Amendment's finest moments.

DeadPatriot

September 17, 2012, 02:31 PM

This is Terrific! Thank you all for the research, debates, and ideas. We are processing as much as we can. Keep it coming, it will help us make a quality documentary. I am copying everything so we can include all the facts and figures in the film.
You guys are the best!
Anita

Sav .250

September 17, 2012, 02:44 PM

Are you an NRA member?

bergmen

September 17, 2012, 02:59 PM

This is Terrific! Thank you all for the research, debates, and ideas. We are processing as much as we can. Keep it coming, it will help us make a quality documentary. I am copying everything so we can include all the facts and figures in the film.
You guys are the best!
Anita

I would recommend this article:

http://www.baen.com/GettingGunsRight.asp

being discussed here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=677544

Dan

Cesiumsponge

September 17, 2012, 06:22 PM

"benEzra" posted more data on an unrelated thread. I thought I'd include it here. The FBI also keeps Uniform Crime Reports and makes a lot of data available on their website if you have time to poke around. Here is a breakdown of deaths by state and firearm type for 2010. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

Since the "assault rifle" topic keeps coming up in popular culture as the best place to start with gun bans, we have his pesky data:

Simply, ALL rifles combined (including assault weapons, hunting rifles, collectible rifles, competition rifles, and perhaps even blackpowder rifles) resulted in the smallest statistical category of all means used to commit murder. You are over 200% more likely to be murdered with hands and feet or close to 500% more likely to be murdered by hand-held, non-edged weapons like clubs or hammers. "Other" might also include poisoning, immolation, etc. It isn't clear.

That really puts the "assault weapons" issue into perspective when compared to all other possible means. It's always pitched to reduce gun crime but shows it would make absolutely no statistically significant difference. The data doesn't split rifles into subtypes, but I suspect "assault weapons" make up a small number of that 2.75% of rifles used in murders. These are all direct government figures that aren't taken out of context or cooked in a way to suggest a biased agenda, so no one can claim its been spun by a,pro-gun organization like the NRA or anti-gun organization like the Brady Campaign or Ceasefire.

michaelbsc

September 17, 2012, 07:10 PM

You might also want to track down the recent expansion of civil forfeiture.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/6/atfs-latest-gun-grab/

Cesiumsponge

September 17, 2012, 07:54 PM

It's going to be mighty hard fitting all this into one documentary. Hopefully the crew can get a tightly focused message out and maybe put out future installments.

Here is an interview of Kris Koenig on GOA radio. He is going to present both sides and do this from a scientific, logical, rational point of view without making anyone look foolish or taking soundbytes out of context:
https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app/orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.yousendit.com%252Ftransfer.php%253Faction%253Dbatch_download%2526batch_id%253DTEhXNWNnQ3Q1aWIwZXNUQw

Carl N. Brown

September 17, 2012, 08:20 PM

Sen. Thomas Dodd ("father" of the GCA) was father of Sen Chris Dodd (not the other way 'round).

I remember how exasperating Thomas J. Dodd's arguments were to me.

When I was growing up in the 1950s and 1960s criminals in my neighborhood got guns illegally by unregulatable channels like fences, smugglers, bootleggers and dope dealers--people who dealt in contraband. AS confirmed by Wright and Rossi in their analysis of the NIJ felon survey in the mid 1980s. Criminals are least likely to affected by gun control; it is those of us who are law abiding who are most affected by gun laws.

denton

September 17, 2012, 10:14 PM

My professional work involves a lot of practical statistics. Here is an article that I wrote a while back (2002??) that might help:

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/brady_effectiveness.pdf

If you need help with statistical analysis, I can spare an hour or two.

Family Anecdote:

I'm an avid shooter, but one of my adult daughters has been pretty gun averse. She would just barely tolerate my son-in-law's hunting firearms in the house.

One day they left for church, and one of the children left the rear patio door open. When they came home, their computer, camera, checkbook, and spare keys were all missing. Next morning while my son-in-law locked their accounts, I changed the locks and installed industrial strength deadbolts.

A couple of nights later, she heard something in the back yard, and looked out her bedroom window to see that the thieves had returned, and were trying the old keys in the new locks. She went flying down the stairs to their teenage daughter's room, while my son-in-law headed for the younger children's rooms.

Halfway down the stairs, she realized that if they did get in, she had absolutely no physical defense.

Next morning, she demanded and got my wife's spare 38 Special, along with a microwave oven size safe to keep little hands away from the firearm. It was really kind of sweet to see her get in touch with her inner momma bear. Today, she would put two rounds in an intruder's center of mass without an instant of hesitation.

Good luck with your project. I'll look forward to seeing it.

doc2rn

September 17, 2012, 10:44 PM

One might want to look at how the gun confiscation durring Hurricane Katrina went. There are some pretty ugly scenes and stories to be told about that incident.

Tommygunn

September 18, 2012, 12:12 AM

Sen. Thomas Dodd ("father" of the GCA) was father of Sen Chris Dodd (not the other way 'round).

Right. They say the memory is the first thing to go. I forget the second thing.:uhoh:

:evil:

DeadPatriot

September 18, 2012, 02:50 PM

Are you an NRA member?
Yes, Kris is a Life Member.

DeadPatriot

September 18, 2012, 02:57 PM

I would recommend this article:

http://www.baen.com/GettingGunsRight.asp

being discussed here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=677544

Dan
excellent! I've bookmarked that, and will read it today.
You guys are awesome!
anita

DeadPatriot

September 18, 2012, 03:02 PM

"benEzra" posted more data on an unrelated thread. I thought I'd include it here. The FBI also keeps Uniform Crime Reports and makes a lot of data available on their website if you have time to poke around. Here is a breakdown of deaths by state and firearm type for 2010. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

Since the "assault rifle" topic keeps coming up in popular culture as the best place to start with gun bans, we have his pesky data:

Simply, ALL rifles combined (including assault weapons, hunting rifles, collectible rifles, competition rifles, and perhaps even blackpowder rifles) resulted in the smallest statistical category of all means used to commit murder. You are over 200% more likely to be murdered with hands and feet or close to 500% more likely to be murdered by hand-held, non-edged weapons like clubs or hammers. "Other" might also include poisoning, immolation, etc. It isn't clear.

That really puts the "assault weapons" issue into perspective when compared to all other possible means. It's always pitched to reduce gun crime but shows it would make absolutely no statistically significant difference. The data doesn't split rifles into subtypes, but I suspect "assault weapons" make up a small number of that 2.75% of rifles used in murders. These are all direct government figures that aren't taken out of context or cooked in a way to suggest a biased agenda, so no one can claim its been spun by a,pro-gun organization like the NRA or anti-gun organization like the Brady Campaign or Ceasefire.
Fantastic, these are the stats we will be working into the doc. No way can anyone argue with facts. You have been of tremendous help, I look forward to working with you all over the next few months as we put this together.
Anita

DeadPatriot

September 18, 2012, 03:06 PM

You might also want to track down the recent expansion of civil forfeiture.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/6/atfs-latest-gun-grab/
Great, will keep this in the research file, Thank You!
anita

DeadPatriot

September 18, 2012, 03:09 PM

It's going to be mighty hard fitting all this into one documentary. Hopefully the crew can get a tightly focused message out and maybe put out future installments.

Here is an interview of Kris Koenig on GOA radio. He is going to present both sides and do this from a scientific, logical, rational point of view without making anyone look foolish or taking soundbytes out of context:
https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app/orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.yousendit.com%252Ftransfer.php%253Faction%253Dbatch_download%2526batch_id%253DTEhXNWNnQ3Q1aWIwZXNUQw
Thanks, Cesium! He's up for another radio interview this Sunday, Talking Guns with Kate - we will keep ya posted!

DeadPatriot

September 18, 2012, 03:11 PM

Sen. Thomas Dodd ("father" of the GCA) was father of Sen Chris Dodd (not the other way 'round).

I remember how exasperating Thomas J. Dodd's arguments were to me.

When I was growing up in the 1950s and 1960s criminals in my neighborhood got guns illegally by unregulatable channels like fences, smugglers, bootleggers and dope dealers--people who dealt in contraband. AS confirmed by Wright and Rossi in their analysis of the NIJ felon survey in the mid 1980s. Criminals are least likely to affected by gun control; it is those of us who are law abiding who are most affected by gun laws.
Yep. Criminals never have a problem with gun laws.

DeadPatriot

September 18, 2012, 03:13 PM

My professional work involves a lot of practical statistics. Here is an article that I wrote a while back (2002??) that might help:

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/brady_effectiveness.pdf

If you need help with statistical analysis, I can spare an hour or two.

Family Anecdote:

I'm an avid shooter, but one of my adult daughters has been pretty gun averse. She would just barely tolerate my son-in-law's hunting firearms in the house.

One day they left for church, and one of the children left the rear patio door open. When they came home, their computer, camera, checkbook, and spare keys were all missing. Next morning while my son-in-law locked their accounts, I changed the locks and installed industrial strength deadbolts.

A couple of nights later, she heard something in the back yard, and looked out her bedroom window to see that the thieves had returned, and were trying the old keys in the new locks. She went flying down the stairs to their teenage daughter's room, while my son-in-law headed for the younger children's rooms.

Halfway down the stairs, she realized that if they did get in, she had absolutely no physical defense.

Next morning, she demanded and got my wife's spare 38 Special, along with a microwave oven size safe to keep little hands away from the firearm. It was really kind of sweet to see her get in touch with her inner momma bear. Today, she would put two rounds in an intruder's center of mass without an instant of hesitation.

Good luck with your project. I'll look forward to seeing it.
Oh, boy, Denton, I'm sure we would love to have all the assistance you want to give! Very much appreciated, all of your input here, from everyone. I have been learning more than I ever expected just from you guys. Thanks again!
:)
anita

DeadPatriot

September 18, 2012, 03:15 PM

One might want to look at how the gun confiscation durring Hurricane Katrina went. There are some pretty ugly scenes and stories to be told about that incident.
Yes, we have been posting on the Louisiana gun forums, with requests of anyone who had their guns confiscated. So far, no luck. If you know of anyone who went through this, and think they might want to chat on camera about it, please let us know.
Anita

holdencm9

September 18, 2012, 05:58 PM

What a coincidence,

I am subscribed to "sootch00" on youtube and he just posted a link to your trailer on youtube, right as I saw this one THR.

I will be anxiously awaiting the completion of your documentary. Good luck!

Also, I wanted to join the crowd in favor of using "human rights" which are PROTECTED by the constitution, not granted by the constitution. I know "civil rights" is more of a commonly-used term, and fine for the title, and I know you are well aware of the difference, but the more you can emphasize that point, the better.

Again, best of luck!

Cesiumsponge

September 18, 2012, 09:30 PM

You might want to try reaching out to Steve Halbrook (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/) on the topic of Katrina since he appears to be a second amendment attorney that has filed against the city of New Orleans and played a role in Chicago and DC legislation. I don't know anything about the fellow but about 3/5ths down on his site, under "Lawsuit against New Orleans gun confiscations from Hurricane Katrina Victims" are some links to legal actions in regards to the Katrina debacle. I don't know about the legal world so those documents might or might not be useful. Someone else might be able to chime in.

I think it's worth including the infamous footage of New Orleans Police Superintendent Eddie Compass's quote on national TV that "No one will be able to be armed," Compass said. "Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns." before carrying out broadband warrantless confiscation with National Guardsmen and law enforcement. You might even be able to reach out to Patricia Konie, who was the posterchild of the confiscation efforts when they tackled her.

The video I was trying to recall earlier was not the 1968 Gun Control Act. It was the Hughes Amendment (House Amendment 777, Rep William J. Hughes D-NJ) snuck in on April 10 of 1986 to the Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA, H.R. 4332). Hughes sneaks in the amendment and successfully prevents it from being read on the floor multiple times. A verbal vote results in a majority Nay vs Yea. Voting on electronic device ended 297 Nays and 124 Yeas with 15 no votes. A majority of Democrats in a Democratically-controlled House voted Nay. It was passed anyhow. The chairman called the voice votes in his favor ultimately. It kind of reminds me of the blatant re-re-revoting of the Yea/Nay at the DNC on the issue of Jeruselum being the capital of Israel and putting God back into some texts somewhere, and the chairman calling the vote in his favor despite the clear opposition.

Here is the footage of the floor vote with links to the full length footage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Mx2UcSEvQ
AJAX22 summarizes the happenings here on Calguns: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=364163

Also mnrivat posted about the "REPORT OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS SECOND SEXXSION FEBRUARY 1982"

Here is a PDF scanned link to the article since the printed material is hard to come by. http://constitution.org/mil/rkba82.pdf
An html reproduction for ease of reading/searching: http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm

That is a very important report given to Congress. It is also a very dry document since it's a report but it covers the history of the BATF, the documentation and history proving it as an individual right, a history on armed citizens and standing armies, gun control legislation, "beta" versions of the Second Amendment that didn't make it into the Constitution, the 14th Amendment and the KKK era of disarming African Americans, and even covers anti-gun views by the National Coalition To Ban Handguns, who of course has a tactfully titled paper, "YOU DO NOT HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO OWN A HANDGUN". Suffice to say, it makes an incredibly weak case which is destroyed by all the evidence to the contrary.

Some bits:

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner"

There is also a history of the BATF and it's transition into:
"The Subcommittee received evidence that BATF has primarily devoted its firearms enforcement efforts to the apprehension, upon technical malum prohibitum charges, of individuals who lack all criminal intent and knowledge. Agents anxious to generate an impressive arrest and gun confiscation quota have repeatedly enticed gun collectors into making a small number of sales--often as few as four--from their personal collections. Although each of the sales was completely legal under state and federal law, the agents then charged the collector with having "engaged in the business" of dealing in guns without the required license. Since existing law permits a felony conviction upon these charges even where the individual has no criminal knowledge or intent numerous collectors have been ruined by a felony record carrying a potential sentence of five years in federal prison. Even in cases where the collectors secured acquittal, or grand juries failed to indict, or prosecutors refused to file criminal charges, agents of the Bureau have generally confiscated the entire collection of the potential defendant upon the ground that he intended to use it in that violation of the law. In several cases, the agents have refused to return the collection even after acquittal by jury."

One interesting aspect worth exploring, in my opinion, is how little the general public knows about these "assault weapons" or "semi-automatic"and "high-cap magazines" and other technical terms. We don't see DUI stories reported with cars bearing "high performance engines" and "variable valve timing" or "oversteer biased". Given firearm terminology and technology are all technobabble alien to laymen, it is impossible to hold credible polls or surveys on the topic because, as you've shown, not even the drafters of anti-gun legislation can define what they're trying to ban. Many of these guns like the AR15 or the 1911 are "semi-automatic" designs that have been around 50-100 years in their original incarnation.

I'm often reminded of this poor police officer in the 90's that did this short video on the differences between a civilian semi-auto rifle and a full-auto. 8:32 has a great clip of Edward Conroy of the ATF testifying before the US Senate subcommittee on trying to define an "assault weapon" and stating the only difference between "assault rifles" and a "sporting rifle" is looks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yATeti5GmI8

DeadPatriot

September 19, 2012, 03:55 PM

What a coincidence,

I am subscribed to "sootch00" on youtube and he just posted a link to your trailer on youtube, right as I saw this one THR.

I will be anxiously awaiting the completion of your documentary. Good luck!

Also, I wanted to join the crowd in favor of using "human rights" which are PROTECTED by the constitution, not granted by the constitution. I know "civil rights" is more of a commonly-used term, and fine for the title, and I know you are well aware of the difference, but the more you can emphasize that point, the better.

Again, best of luck!
This is a great point, Holden...

DeadPatriot

September 19, 2012, 03:59 PM

You might want to try reaching out to Steve Halbrook (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/) on the topic of Katrina since he appears to be a second amendment attorney that has filed against the city of New Orleans and played a role in Chicago and DC legislation. I don't know anything about the fellow but about 3/5ths down on his site, under "Lawsuit against New Orleans gun confiscations from Hurricane Katrina Victims" are some links to legal actions in regards to the Katrina debacle. I don't know about the legal world so those documents might or might not be useful. Someone else might be able to chime in.

I think it's worth including the infamous footage of New Orleans Police Superintendent Eddie Compass's quote on national TV that "No one will be able to be armed," Compass said. "Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns." before carrying out broadband warrantless confiscation with National Guardsmen and law enforcement. You might even be able to reach out to Patricia Konie, who was the posterchild of the confiscation efforts when they tackled her.

The video I was trying to recall earlier was not the 1968 Gun Control Act. It was the Hughes Amendment (House Amendment 777, Rep William J. Hughes D-NJ) snuck in on April 10 of 1986 to the Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA, H.R. 4332). Hughes sneaks in the amendment and successfully prevents it from being read on the floor multiple times. A verbal vote results in a majority Nay vs Yea. Voting on electronic device ended 297 Nays and 124 Yeas with 15 no votes. A majority of Democrats in a Democratically-controlled House voted Nay. It was passed anyhow. The chairman called the voice votes in his favor ultimately. It kind of reminds me of the blatant re-re-revoting of the Yea/Nay at the DNC on the issue of Jeruselum being the capital of Israel and putting God back into some texts somewhere, and the chairman calling the vote in his favor despite the clear opposition.

Here is the footage of the floor vote with links to the full length footage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Mx2UcSEvQ
AJAX22 summarizes the happenings here on Calguns: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=364163

Also mnrivat posted about the "REPORT OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS SECOND SEXXSION FEBRUARY 1982"

Here is a PDF scanned link to the article since the printed material is hard to come by. http://constitution.org/mil/rkba82.pdf
An html reproduction for ease of reading/searching: http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm

That is a very important report given to Congress. It is also a very dry document since it's a report but it covers the history of the BATF, the documentation and history proving it as an individual right, a history on armed citizens and standing armies, gun control legislation, "beta" versions of the Second Amendment that didn't make it into the Constitution, the 14th Amendment and the KKK era of disarming African Americans, and even covers anti-gun views by the National Coalition To Ban Handguns, who of course has a tactfully titled paper, "YOU DO NOT HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO OWN A HANDGUN". Suffice to say, it makes an incredibly weak case which is destroyed by all the evidence to the contrary.

Some bits:

There is also a history of the BATF and it's transition into:

One interesting aspect worth exploring, in my opinion, is how little the general public knows about these "assault weapons" or "semi-automatic"and "high-cap magazines" and other technical terms. We don't see DUI stories reported with cars bearing "high performance engines" and "variable valve timing" or "oversteer biased". Given firearm terminology and technology are all technobabble alien to laymen, it is impossible to hold credible polls or surveys on the topic because, as you've shown, not even the drafters of anti-gun legislation can define what they're trying to ban. Many of these guns like the AR15 or the 1911 are "semi-automatic" designs that have been around 50-100 years in their original incarnation.

I'm often reminded of this poor police officer in the 90's that did this short video on the differences between a civilian semi-auto rifle and a full-auto. 8:32 has a great clip of Edward Conroy of the ATF testifying before the US Senate subcommittee on trying to define an "assault weapon" and stating the only difference between "assault rifles" and a "sporting rifle" is looks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yATeti5GmI8
Thank you again, Cesiumsponge - this info is copied into my research files, now. And Halbrook is on our interview list now. You are awesome!
anita

Cesiumsponge

September 19, 2012, 06:18 PM

Adding to the disparity in perception of a firearm being solely based on emotional reaction of re physical appearance or baseless representation, a member here (user name GEM, Dr. Glenn E. Meyer, PhD) wrote a paper on the topic named " Will It Hurt Me In Court? Weapons Issues and the Fears of the Legally Armed Citizen" under the environment of a courtroom.

There was also the great copkiller "teflon boolits!" scare which was completely baseless, as well as the "black talon" scare. If someone has links to dispelled those, please add them. I can't find anything at he moment but ill modify te post if I come across them.

bergmen

September 19, 2012, 07:13 PM

Minor thought I have included in a letter to the editor of our local newspaper (which was published):

The possession of a firearm is not a causal factor in the commission of a gun related crime, it is incidental and supplemental to it. It is impossible to control a criminal act by attempting to control the possession of inanimate objects, otherwise all objects would be the subject of controls related to criminal misuse (autos, baseball bats, knives, hatchets, hammers, etc.).

It is the height of hypocrisy to single out firearms, which by nature are completely harmless without human interaction, as an object to be controlled in order to control actions (virtually impossible).

If one were to be successful in removing a firearm from a murderous individual one is still left with a murderous individual who can easily turn to any of the inanimate objects mentioned above (and many more) and effectively commit the crime.

Dan

Ashcons

September 19, 2012, 07:26 PM

DP, welcome to THR. This is a great place to learn about various pro-2A theory without the flaming/trolling commonly found on the Internet. I look forward to seeing your documentary. You may want to check survivalistboards.com for people willing to talk about their Katrina experience. They're a pretty decent group of people (like THR, their mods do not tolerate trolling/flaming), but OPSEC and tinfoil hats might keep them from biting on an interview.

On a side note, this project's only 24% funded on kickstarter. KS is a great tool for project jumpstarts, do don't be afraid of donating there if you are unaware of the site as it is generally a well-known site for raising project capital.

denton

September 20, 2012, 01:34 AM

I highly recommend http://armsandthelaw.com/. The owner, Dave Hardy, contributed his legal talents to the Heller and McDonald cases. He's an expert on 2A constitutional law, and well respected.

Cesiumsponge

September 20, 2012, 12:18 PM

More juicy government statistics from the BATFE. www.atf.gov/statistics

Recall all rifle homicides in the data I posted earlier from the 2010 FBI uniform crime report constitute 2.75% of all homicide methods recorded. Rifles are manufactured at a volume that exceeds handguns by 1250% but they're responsible for the smallest statistical category recorded by the FBI under homicide types. That is a stark contrast in extremes. The most produced firearm subtype (and assault rifles being a sub subtype that anti-gun types are up in arms about) is also the firearm subtype least used in homicides. Straight from the recordkeeping of two federal agencies of the US government. No bias. No emotional fearmongering.

There is also a lot more data on firearm traces done by law enforcement and tracked back by the ATF available on the site, if its pertinent.

Owen Sparks

September 20, 2012, 12:52 PM

The governments desire to control modern rifles has nothing to do with crime.

DeadPatriot

September 20, 2012, 01:40 PM

got it, sir - I thank you!

DeadPatriot

September 20, 2012, 01:47 PM

Minor thought I have included in a letter to the editor of our local newspaper (which was published):

The possession of a firearm is not a causal factor in the commission of a gun related crime, it is incidental and supplemental to it. It is impossible to control a criminal act by attempting to control the possession of inanimate objects, otherwise all objects would be the subject of controls related to criminal misuse (autos, baseball bats, knives, hatchets, hammers, etc.).

It is the height of hypocrisy to single out firearms, which by nature are completely harmless without human interaction, as an object to be controlled in order to control actions (virtually impossible).

If one were to be successful in removing a firearm from a murderous individual one is still left with a murderous individual who can easily turn to any of the inanimate objects mentioned above (and many more) and effectively commit the crime.

Dan
We Totally Agree. I assume the targeting of firearms has to do with the speed of death. Its the easiest way to cause harm, and from a distance too.

Just a guess on my part.
anita

gfanikf

September 20, 2012, 01:48 PM

More juicy government statistics from the BATFE. www.atf.gov/statistics

Recall all rifle homicides in the data I posted earlier from the 2010 FBI uniform crime report constitute 2.75% of all homicide methods recorded. Rifles are manufactured at a volume that exceeds handguns by 1250% but they're responsible for the smallest statistical category recorded by the FBI under homicide types. That is a stark contrast in extremes. The most produced firearm subtype (and assault rifles being a sub subtype that anti-gun types are up in arms about) is also the firearm subtype least used in homicides. Straight from the recordkeeping of two federal agencies of the US government. No bias. No emotional fearmongering.

There is also a lot more data on firearm traces done by law enforcement and tracked back by the ATF available on the site, if its pertinent.
Don't forget the Tax revenue generated by the NFA and the massive numbers of people with NFA items...granted it's mixed in with government, hence why at first glance CA has the largest amount of destructive devices (flashbangs count apparently).

That said, the JFPO apparently was wrong about the firearm law or translated a Weimer Republic Era law and passed it off as the Nazi's Halbrook would be the point person on this. But I can tell you I heard this from gun people, not Antis, who want to be accurate.

DeadPatriot

September 20, 2012, 01:57 PM

DP, welcome to THR. This is a great place to learn about various pro-2A theory without the flaming/trolling commonly found on the Internet. I look forward to seeing your documentary. You may want to check survivalistboards.com for people willing to talk about their Katrina experience. They're a pretty decent group of people (like THR, their mods do not tolerate trolling/flaming), but OPSEC and tinfoil hats might keep them from biting on an interview.

On a side note, this project's only 24% funded on kickstarter. KS is a great tool for project jumpstarts, do don't be afraid of donating there if you are unaware of the site as it is generally a well-known site for raising project capital.
Ashcons, thank you so very much for the support and also, the Katrina link...we need that!
:)
Anita

DeadPatriot

September 20, 2012, 01:58 PM

I highly recommend http://armsandthelaw.com/. The owner, Dave Hardy, contributed his legal talents to the Heller and McDonald cases. He's an expert on 2A constitutional law, and well respected.
Bookmarked - Thank you again, Denton ~
anita

DeadPatriot

September 20, 2012, 02:01 PM

More juicy government statistics from the BATFE. www.atf.gov/statistics

Recall all rifle homicides in the data I posted earlier from the 2010 FBI uniform crime report constitute 2.75% of all homicide methods recorded. Rifles are manufactured at a volume that exceeds handguns by 1250% but they're responsible for the smallest statistical category recorded by the FBI under homicide types. That is a stark contrast in extremes. The most produced firearm subtype (and assault rifles being a sub subtype that anti-gun types are up in arms about) is also the firearm subtype least used in homicides. Straight from the recordkeeping of two federal agencies of the US government. No bias. No emotional fearmongering.

There is also a lot more data on firearm traces done by law enforcement and tracked back by the ATF available on the site, if its pertinent.
Cesium this is great, I thank you for this!
:)
anita

DeadPatriot

September 20, 2012, 02:05 PM

Don't forget the Tax revenue generated by the NFA and the massive numbers of people with NFA items...granted it's mixed in with government, hence why at first glance CA has the largest amount of destructive devices (flashbangs count apparently).

That said, the JFPO apparently was wrong about the firearm law or translated a Weimer Republic Era law and passed it off as the Nazi's Halbrook would be the point person on this. But I can tell you I heard this from gun people, not Antis, who want to be accurate.
Yes, gfanikf, accuracy is vital to this production.
and I think we will be hunting down Halbrook for an interview...
:)

gfanikf

September 20, 2012, 02:10 PM

Yes, gfanikf, accuracy is vital to this production.
and I think we will be hunting down Halbrook for an interview...
:)
Thanks. I mean I've very pro-2A, but it's hard to deal with the way we can sometimes accept or repeat things with no citations. Then again I'm a lawyer (actually served as counsel for a restoration film project funded by Kickstarter) so I'm a stickler for the details, both because I'm trained to use them to back my case or find holes in the others. If you want someone to act as a critical script reader I would be happy to help out.

Cesiumsponge

September 20, 2012, 02:12 PM

The original intent of the NFA tax stamp in 1934 was a de-facto ban because only the wealthiest at the time would pay $200 in 1934 dollars for a $2 suppressor or a $20 rifle. Only in recent times has the dollar devalued to the point where a $200 fee for a $1000 suppressor seem more reasonable. That ATF page has NFA data and its really picked up over the last decade.

X-Rap

September 20, 2012, 02:35 PM

This could probably fill a whole film but I think highlighting the differences of the 50 states and their view on gun ownership might go a long way in educating this countrys population.
Having traveled it some I am amazed at the differences in laws and what people consider acceptable.
The contrast of Illinois, New York, California, with Alaska, Arizona, and Wyoming as well as the recent conversions of what were fairly restrictive Midwestern States like Minnesota, Iowa and Wisconson and proof that blood isn't flowing in the streets should greatly influence the way voters in those more restrictive may issue or won't issue states cast their ballots.
Good work and can't wait to see it when done.

Owen Sparks

September 20, 2012, 02:37 PM

It is interesting that the federal government can tax the one item you are guaranteed the right to possess by the Constitution, yet the courts struck down the poll tax as an unconstitutional affront to the right to vote even though "the right to vote" is not even mentioned in the Constitution.

They could never get away with a special federal tax levied on any other activities enumerated in the Bill of Rights such as religion, the press, free speech, etc.

powell&hyde

September 20, 2012, 02:48 PM

Very interesting thread, here is a chart on regional nics history for regional states from the year 2000. Welcome to the high road.

DeadPatriot

September 20, 2012, 06:27 PM

Thanks. I mean I've very pro-2A, but it's hard to deal with the way we can sometimes accept or repeat things with no citations. Then again I'm a lawyer (actually served as counsel for a restoration film project funded by Kickstarter) so I'm a stickler for the details, both because I'm trained to use them to back my case or find holes in the others. If you want someone to act as a critical script reader I would be happy to help out.
gfanikf, we might just take you up on that. I know everyone who supports this doc feels the same way, it must be accurate for it to be credible.
Thank you, sir, and everyone here. Everyone is very intelligent, enthusiastic, and kind.
:)
anita

DeadPatriot

September 20, 2012, 06:29 PM

This could probably fill a whole film but I think highlighting the differences of the 50 states and their view on gun ownership might go a long way in educating this countrys population.
Having traveled it some I am amazed at the differences in laws and what people consider acceptable.
The contrast of Illinois, New York, California, with Alaska, Arizona, and Wyoming as well as the recent conversions of what were fairly restrictive Midwestern States like Minnesota, Iowa and Wisconson and proof that blood isn't flowing in the streets should greatly influence the way voters in those more restrictive may issue or won't issue states cast their ballots.
Good work and can't wait to see it when done.
Thank you, X-Rap.
We hear ya!
:)

Cesiumsponge

September 20, 2012, 09:32 PM

Some more further information to add.

It looks like for any manufacturer data older than the 2011 offering on the ATF site, it gives a comprehensive breakdown of how many firearm types each company manufactured.

I opened this one up: http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2010-final-firearms-manufacturing-export-report.pdf

While this isn't exhaustive, I've included some "assault weapon" manufacturer names I recognized off the top of my head that exclusively make assault weapons. There are some manufacturers with military contracts and also make more than assault weapons, like FN and Remington. I did not include them for simplicity. The actual number of evil black rifles manufactured is much higher than my rough list I cobbled below because I am mainly familiar with AR15 manufacturers, and not the AK-style manufacturers or otherwise.

294,920 evil black rifles manufactured out of a total of 1,830,556 rifles for that year. 16% of all rifles manufactured, based off the incomplete list above were assault rifles. It wouldn't be unreasonable to guess around 20% of the rifle market to civilians are assault rifles, if we could compile a complete list.

Considering shotguns (743,378) and pistols (67,929) and rifles (1,830,556) total 2,641,863 firearms manufactured with this specific data, assault rifles manufactured, based on just the incomplete list above, 11% of ALL firearms made. One in ten firearms sold across America might very well be an assault rifle. Despite the disproportionate attention in the media, the incredible proliferation of these scary guns in the hands of Americans has placed this specific style of rifle into the category of "rifle" (along with all other rifles that aren't "assault), which according to the FBI, cumulatively is responsible for 2.75% of all homicides, the least used method in carrying out a homicide.

**********************
Also there was some new information from the CDC data I posted on page 1. I was curious why "legal intervention" deaths were only 395. Right below it, it lists "Events of undetermined intent (Y10-Y34,Y87.2,Y89.9)" with 5,005 deaths. Given the CDC just records the annual deaths, it's quite possible these are "deaths in queue" undergoing active investigation or a court case at the time to determine if they were self-defense or not. Clearly some of these cases or investigations can take time. Obviously once these cases are settled, they won't be re-categorized into the proper category in the next year's CDC report.

Shadow 7D

September 21, 2012, 04:14 AM

Also, the US is usually held up as having a *much* higher murder rate than other developed countries, now, can somebody please dig those threads out,

In Brittan and Australia when they banned guns the violent crime rates and murder rates didn't even take a blip (well, 'crimes of passion', but those are well made up for by using a weapon on hand or defenseless victims)

Secondly, there is no uniform standard in reporting crime nation to nation, then there are places like Brittan, then had a scandal 3? years ago of cops NOT taking reports of crime, as the had little hope of solving them, so they didn't even try.

Then there is Japan, were murders and such rarely happen, rather the criminal removed the blot of his existence from contaminating his family's honor by pissing off the wrong people. See clear as day - SUICIDE....

Two reasons why the anit's claim of 'US is a Violent Culture' falls down, we aren't the most peace loving maybe, but we are far from the worse, though we are the most well reported and DOCUMENTED.

Cesiumsponge

September 21, 2012, 12:27 PM

The actual violent crime rate (sans homicide) is higher in many European countries. Two cops were just killed with firearms and grenades in the UK.

gfanikf

September 21, 2012, 12:55 PM

The actual violent crime rate (sans homicide) is higher in many European countries. Two cops were just killed with firearms and grenades in the UK.
Except if you look at the number overall it's not large
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

Cesiumsponge

September 21, 2012, 01:07 PM

Sorry if I misrepresented my comments as specific to LEOs. Violent crime in general. The two slain officers happens to be very recent news. I recall a study a while back that took a look at British and Australian violent crime, which affected upwards of 20-25% of citizens. Of course, the methodology of recording and categorizing crime is different in all nations so doing direct comparisons is superficial and difficult.

Shadow 7D

September 22, 2012, 03:05 AM

the US actually has a middle or slightly lower OVERALL violent crime rate - kinda, depends on how the numbers were jiggled to get them to align, we have a higher murder rate, but lower assault etc.

denton

September 23, 2012, 01:41 PM

You have to be careful comparing crime rates from country to country.

Some of the reputable sources have a disclaimer, since different countries count and classify differently.

X-Rap

September 23, 2012, 02:44 PM

I also believe the murder rate in any given area depends to some degree on the medical treatment available. Someone who survives what would/should have been a fatal gunshot, with todays medical advancements becomes an assault victim instead of a murder.

Cesiumsponge

September 26, 2012, 02:28 AM

I'm going to bump this back up and ask. Does anyone here post on reddit or some other huge non-gun oriented forum as a way to spread news of this project? I suspect if we can get news of this project beyond the purely gun-related forums, we might be able to pick up more traction.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more folks on board. The funding rate seems to be slowing down with 8 days remaining.

Cesiumsponge

October 3, 2012, 08:34 PM

There is just over 24 hours remaining on the Kickstarter campaign. To the folks that spend their days here complaining about liberals, anti-gunners, Brady Bunch, Ceasefire, false statistics, dirty politicians, and the agenda of gun control: this is your very last chance to put your money where your mouth is and prove you aren't just hot air. A metric buttload of folks at Calguns have doubled or tripled their initial pledges. New pledge levels have been added.

You folks will only have yourselves to blame next time you talk about how no one in Hollywood or the media will speak positively about guns or listen to gun owners because Kris is doing exactly what folks have been asking for but it's not getting enough traction. It's up to folks to step up to the plate and pass over that extra box or two of ammo at the store this week and send that money towards this documentary made for our benefit. It's a shame because I've seen Kickstarter campaigns for stupid games or knick knacks exceed their goal by 1000%+ and raise hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars but Kris is fighting tooth and nail just to hit $65k.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/assaulted/assaulted

jeffsenpai

October 4, 2012, 03:19 AM

Great! I just donated $25, they are only ~$3,000 short of their goal with 22 hours left! Donate to this people!! They are too close for this to fail!

holdencm9

October 4, 2012, 10:45 AM

I went to the kickstarter website and was just planning to donate $20, but then saw that for $25 you get a DVD of the documentary signed by the crew! Even though it will probably be available for download cheaper and may even find its way to Netflix or Amazon Prime, it is always nice to have something tangible as well. I recommend everyone do the $25 donation!

fanchisimo

October 4, 2012, 11:47 AM

I just looked at the site, the goal has been met!!! I urge people to keep giving as the more he has to work with the better the film. :D

Cesiumsponge

October 4, 2012, 01:03 PM

Amazon and Kickstarter skim 9% off the top. Plus the actual merchandise cost of all the pledge merchandise so Kris is NOT netting $65k for the budget. I hope it keeps going and surpasses $75k+ tonight! You can also do multiple pledges, so you can do $10 for the HD download and still buy the signed DVD or even the 6 pack to give to friends and family that are fence sitters.

The comeback is amazing too, thanks to a ton of folks that doubled or tripled their contributions. Here is some data: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/assaulted/assaulted

Contact David Kopel... and read his book Samurai Mountie & the Cowboy.

Also, NPR had an Intelligence Squared debate "More Guns, Less Crime" that was pretty decent. Listen to the unedited version...

bergmen

October 5, 2012, 11:49 AM

Contact David Kopel... and read his book Samurai Mountie & the Cowboy.

This is a good book as long as one keeps in mind that it was published 20 years ago and has not been updated. Much has happened since in the world of firearms laws since and a current perspective is not portrayed here.

Dan

DeadPatriot

October 7, 2012, 05:42 PM

Hiya, Folks –

I want to thank everyone for the support of our documentary,
“Assaulted: Civil Rights Under Fire.”

We have reached our goal for initial funding, and are now officially in production.

Thanks again for all of your ideas, information and viewpoints; its good to know you are here and ready for this film to be made!

This forum is one of the best by far. You have been so kind, and the input from The High Road is inspiring and thought provoking.

Thanks again. I do appreciate it very much!

Anita
Dead Patriot Films

DavidMS

October 8, 2012, 10:03 AM

Firstly, welcome and best of luck with the project. You may want to look up the Black Panther Party and the Mulford Bill but I am sure that you know about it. Also, a forgotten part of this history is the Deacons for Defence and Justice. We cannot tell the story of guns or gun control in America without talking about race and class.

holdencm9

January 24, 2013, 12:05 PM

I have been getting the update emails from these guys. I wanted to bump this thread so if anyone out there can afford to donate for the first time, or again, they can. I donated $25 the first time, going to donate another $25. I don't need two DVDs but I figure I can use one to circulate to all my friends, pro- and anti-2a alike.

Cesiumsponge

January 24, 2013, 01:55 PM

This is a second chance for those particularly outspoken gun owners to put their money where their mouth is. We barely met the first fundraiser goal. I hope the recent political stirrings will convince gun owners to donate and fund this scientific documentary. Kris burnt a lot of bridges by securing airtime on PBS and chasing down theater distribution. This will be one of, if not the only widespread documentaries that places the second amendment in a positive light using government data and historical events. That an Emmy Award winning science documentary maker is doing it will eliminate arguments that this is some sort of NRA propaganda.

There's no excuse not to donate a few bucks. You all have a few extra bucks on the side now that you can't fins ammo to buy. I purchased the 6-pack of DVDs and several other sponsorship levels on the first run so I can distribute materials to anti and fencesitters.

mrvco

January 24, 2013, 02:06 PM

I made the mistake of going to the kickstarter site and saw that it was "FUNDED".

Go to the project website to donate...

http://deadpatriotfilms.com/assaulted/index.html

Cesiumsponge

January 24, 2013, 02:15 PM

Sorry, there is an updated Kickstarter for round 2. http://kck.st/VZmXBM

mrvco

January 24, 2013, 02:17 PM

Whoops... no DVD for me :)

hnk45acp

January 24, 2013, 02:58 PM

I pledged!

Cesiumsponge

January 24, 2013, 05:18 PM

I'm trying to get a libertarian-leaning radio show host on KIRO news radio here interested in interviewig Kris. If anyone knows of a way to get further exposure or spreading the word on other forums, its worth a shot. Kris Koenig has done several interviews in the past with pro-gun radio shows.

DeadPatriot

January 24, 2013, 05:27 PM

^^ Thanks Eric ^^

We were hoping that some deep-pocket finance types would have shown themselves by now to help us carry this film to the finishing line, but no such luck. Therefore, the crew and I have decided to return to Kickstarter to raise the funds needed to complete the film and take it to theaters by March to be part of the “conversation” while congress debates our 2nd Amendment rights.

Yes, theaters!

Using a similar distribution plan used by the recent film 2016, we’re going to self-promote and distribute the film in major US cities “art house” cinemas. With strong positive reviews, we will then secure traditional distribution. Once the theatrical release is completed, we will then distribute a TV edit to PBS/PTV affiliates for broadcast. Netflix and web streaming will follow by the end of spring.

What happened to the funds from the first round? In the 90 days since receiving $64,000 from Kickstarter (yes, they take a commission!), we hit the road and conducted 50+ interviews and gathered some great footage. Our travels took us up and down California, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Florida and Louisiana. Expenses included t-shirts, hats, insurance, salaries, fuel, lawyers, hotels, airfare and food. We also covered the small loans that carried us from May to October when we were developing the concept for this film.

Now we will recharge the till, set the editor and his crew to work and craft the film that is needed now more than ever. We hope that each of you will consider another donation to our film to help us communicate the importance of “we the people” and the right to “keep and bear arms”.

Please donate here - http://kck.st/VZmXBM

NNlo-gZ3ENY

Cesiumsponge

January 24, 2013, 05:48 PM

Hey Kris, if you don't hear from KIRO, try reaching out to them. They have a gal that runs their social media as an intermediate so maybe she didn't pass on the word. It might be more compelling to reach out to the Dori Monson Show directly at at http://kiroradio.com/category/dori_monson/ their producer is Jake. Direct email dmonson AT bonneville DOT com and I believe (888) 973-KIRO (5476) . Might mean mire than an anonymous person like me asking they contact you. I'm not sure exactly how the process works for arranging interviews. Seattle and the lifetime sound metropolitan area has a large listenership. For everyone else out there in a large metropolitan area, try contacting local shows to see if they're interested in an interview.

Cesiumsponge

January 24, 2013, 11:14 PM

In the spirit of reviving the thread, I noticed some of my ATF numbers were off on pistol manufacturing numbers was off due to misinterpretation on a much earlier post when this thread was just started. I'm sure the crew has combed over the numbers and corrected them.

There are some additional useful resources, however. Now with all the school shootings, we have the following data which shows school violence (assault, aggravated assault, theft, rape, sexual assault, etc) have been steadily going down since they kept records. Gun-related school deaths, while disturbing, are also very low historically. NOAA shows for many of those years, lightning strike deaths exceeded those of school shootings. Schools are some of the safest places in America, despite fearmongering from either side that armed guards are needed or that guns need to be banned. The following are government figures:
Table 1.2. Number of school-associated violent deaths of students, staff, and nonstudents, by type: School years 1992–93 to 2009–10
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/crimeindicators2011/tables/table_01_2.asp

Table 2.1. Number of nonfatal victimizations against students ages 12–18 and rate of victimizations per 1,000 students, by type of victimization, location, and year: 1992–2010
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/crimeindicators2011/tables/table_02_1.asp

Percentage of schools with various security measures, by school control and selected characteristics: 2007-08
: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_168.asp

The violent crime rate per 100,000 residents in 1992 was 758. In 2012, it's 386. It's been steadily dropping, right through the 1994-2004 assault weapons ban without any deviation. Not just gun crime, but rapes, robberies, assaults, property crime, and car thefts.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1

Someone on the forum also posted links to several government-funded studies that showed no useful or measurable differences were made by the AWB. Unfortunately my Google-Fu is weak but perhaps someone will come along and repost them or I can dig it up in the meantime, or you've uncovered those already.

DeadPatriot

January 25, 2013, 06:23 PM

Thanks - we'll reach out to them next week.

Kris

bergmen

January 25, 2013, 06:59 PM

Pledged another Ben Franklin.

Dan

DeadPatriot

January 31, 2013, 04:34 PM

Here is our Kickstarter update for Week #1

It’s been one week since we launched this campaign and we want to thank each of you for your early support. The fact that each of you believes in what we are doing is more important than your donations, but we need your pledges and more to complete this film.

Entering into the post-production process for me is a love-hate proposition. On one hand it means we’re closing in on a finished product and on the other, it means hours of writing, debating with Anita and the voices in my head to hammer out a script for the editor to begin his work. I am proud to tell you that we have crafted a solid story arc and are now combing the transcripts to find those interview bites that will drive our film. History, laws, engineering, stories of oppression, individual triumph and the roots of American culture all mixed up in a recipe of visuals and sounds to convey one of the most important civil rights we have – the right to bear arms.

A couple of weeks ago, I was having dinner with some friends at the SHOT show. One of them turned to me while we were eating and said that I was either a genius or damned lucky to have this film nearly completed. Well, I don’t think of myself as a genius, and I know many who would agree with that statement, but I do feel incredibly lucky to be able to bring this story, our story, to the screen when it needs to be seen the most. With a little more luck and your support, we’ll deliver this film in 60 days.

To make this deadline, I need to ask for your continued help. Please share the link to Kickstarter campaign with your friends and ask them to join us to make this film a reality.

http://kck.st/VZmXBM

Thank you,

Kris

DeadPatriot

February 1, 2013, 01:55 PM

Wow! Our Kickstarter campaign had a $6,670 rally yesterday. That puts us just shy of $15,000 and 20% of our goal with 15 days to go.

This is the week to push forward to our target. Please let your friends and family know that we need their support to complete this important film.

Share the link - http://kck.st/VZmXBM

Thank you,

Kris

Cesiumsponge

February 6, 2013, 12:38 AM

Bumping this. 11 days to go and not even $20,000 raised for a project that can influence millions.

The initial Kickstarter campaign to pay for the actual filming was barely successful and that was BEFORE all this political stirring in December. Did everyone spend their money on $3000 Bushmasters? I'm actually kind of ashamed since this is a post-Sandy Hook world with threats of gun bans and most gun owners are screaming about gun rights but doing very little in the way of joining the NRA or giving Kris' project a contribution.

In the first round, most of the finding came from Calgun members doubling and tripling down, and it barely made it with no AWB scare. Now we have the potential of getting a PRO-2A film shown on PBS, Netflix and in theaters...something no one else has ever accomplished, let alone by a resume belonging to an Emmy-award winning scientific documentary maker. Writing emails and making phone calls might influence politicians, but changing the general public's mind and educating them with an unbiased documentary is just as important as these are the same people who might be calling their politicians right now and asking them to ban assault weapons, which nullify your voices.

If anyone has followed his thread on calguns, Kris pretty much tells everyone he burned all his bridges at PBS and his media connections. Kris is a radioactive hot potato and no one wants anything to do with him now because he broke the code of liberalism by working on an unbiased project that shows the second amendment in a positive light. He quite possibly terminated his own career working on this project.

Kris, do you have anyone working your social media? Can you reach out to anyone on reddit's /r/guns/ that would get it promoted? Reddit is a wasteland of trolls but the /guns subforum is very active and has a large viewership. Have you tried plugging the project elsewhere? You have nothing to lose, so I'd try hitting the largest volume forums on the Internet, places like AR15, SomethingAwful, IGN, all the various car and auto forums like Honda-Tech, NASIOC, Bimmerforums...heck even 4chan. Simply any place that might have a viewing audience. If you can even fish 0.1% from each of those places, it might be enough. There is nothing to lose at this point with shameless self-promotion. Seems like you're not getting any traction here. You need to hit a lot of sources and bet on some luck for it to reach the right eyes to stand a chance of going viral.

If it's not too late, you might want to revise the original Title of your thread and call it something more along the lines of "Fundraising help needed for Pro-2A documentary" because I have a feeling a lot of people are glossing over this thread because it doesn't sound like the OP is asking for support.

Here is a list of completed interviews to date that Kris and crew have interviewed:

Yo, guys. The minimum funding is a dollar. He needs $70K to finish the film.

He's got less than $20K pledged right now, with only 11 days left.

Everybody pitch in the price of a box of ammo at least.

Dr.Rob

February 6, 2013, 04:49 AM

I pitched a few bucks.

I'd like to see it finished.

michaelbsc

February 6, 2013, 12:39 PM

Be aware that the link from the first page of this thread is the first Kickstarter project, which is the shooting cost. That one is closed. And it was successful.

This Kickstarter is for final production and distribution, and it's now down to ten days and at far less than 25%. The movie is no good in the can.

The link is a few posts up.

Cesiumsponge

February 6, 2013, 08:06 PM

This is the new link. http://kck.st/VZmXBM

I hope OP can update the original post. It's only 31% funded with 10 days to go. At current trends, it's going to fail miserably. 4 million NRA members and 50+ million households with guns and we can't even raise $70k?
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/assaulted/assaulted-civil-rights-under-fire-finishing-fund-c/dailychart.png

RiverPerson

February 6, 2013, 09:35 PM

I pledged $25.

$25 is a lot of money to me, I realize what it's like to have a low income.
But I often see on these gun forums that people have no problem buying 3 or 4 cases of ammo at a time or spending a grand on a rifle.

If you can do that, I'm sure you can donate just $10 to something that could help educate people about firearms and possibly help preserve the 2nd Amendment.

If we don't fight and win now, future generations won't even realize what has been lost.

Link again: http://kck.st/VZmXBM

michaelbsc

February 6, 2013, 09:39 PM

Hey, $25 from the heart is far better than not donating $100 from someone to whom it doesn't matter.

I appreciate it, and I'm not even associated with the film. In fact, until a couple of days ago I had completely ignored this thread. (What a dummy!)

MrCleanOK

February 6, 2013, 10:52 PM

Mods, please do something to help this thread out. The thread title isn't compelling, and the very first post on the last page is:

I made the mistake of going to the kickstarter site and saw that it was "FUNDED".

I think this is something that a lot of our members would get behind, but the fact that this is a very important project that drastically needs our help is very easy to look over in this thread.

michaelbsc

February 7, 2013, 01:18 AM

Maybe move it to activism with a better title.

Can someone start another one in activism? Is that forbidden?

DeadPatriot

February 7, 2013, 01:30 AM

First, I want to thank everyone for their support. Anita and I are a bit overwhelmed with trying to complete the script and drive this second campaign so we haven't had the time to visit the board as much as we would like to. I would also like to thank Cesiumsponge for covering our backs here on The High Road. Finally, all the donations that have been coming in - yes, everything helps.

We have had less than a third of the original backers have participate in this second campaign, so we have a lot of hope that we will reach our goal if we can all reach out to our friends and encourage them to help us fund this very important film.