[QUOTE]Originally posted by reaperblack:something else to think about, the idea of your body in a circle is found in many martial arts and in many aspects of life. One of the symbols for medicine is a man with his arms and legs out in a star and a cirle drawn around them, this is the motion used in many styles, tai chi, capoeira, aikido, and jujitsu. Circular styles are amongst the deadliest and the most useful against multiple attackers[/QUOTE] Thats right reaper.It is my opinion that Aikido trains the person the best for multiple attackers.If the Aikido Stylist is very knowledgable,---it is the most street effective for multi-fighting........bar none.

For some that might come across this board, and like the subjects that we have been talking about, but perhaps you want a few techniques.Here are some.First read&understand to your utmost ability---what we all have been discussing.ESPECIALLY what Joe has informed us , in Japan--is called the All directional Circle.What is it?, you may ask.It's lines represent force.These forces OFF-BALANCE the opponent.They can also be used to take down the opponent.For example, you can just come up behind somebody-- armed with this knowledge--grab the tops of both his shoulders.....and simply--PULL.(Towards you.)He will go down.(You can finish in whatever way your style dictates...)CONVERSELY,the opposite is also true.And think of this,.....HE CAN BE THE ONE THAT GRABS YOU.He can grab w/his left,setting you up for his right haymaker,and with this understanding-----you can manipulate that fool like a marionette.You can also GRAB HIS HAIR.(Of course long hair is best.)But keep in mind IT IS NOT JUST THE PAIN FROM THE HAIR,that will cause this to work.The most important aspect is the understanding of the all directional circle.So if a person has a high pain threshold,or is under an influence....it is the circle that will 'take up the slack'.You cant have the hair technique w/out the understanding of the circle.The two go hand in hand.They are..."Joined at the hip." Armed with both,you lock the hair, and combine that with the understanding you must have,---and you can work that attacker down.These are some simplified,practical ways for those that might come across this board.---Terry

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:my 2 cents...............when viewing a circle it has 360'.If you divide your circle into an octagon you are not using all the angles available to you. Look at the first half of the exercise where you go in 4 directions, you are working the 90', add the 8 directions and your working the 45'. But all angles exist in the circle(360)so what happened to the 36' angle or the 75' or the 120'? Knowing all angles exist, the octagon is helpful but one is missing angles to work. We employ the use of the clock, from 12(always facing you)all the way around to the 11. this increases the angles by a bit as you can work to the 1, or the 2 before moving the 3. You can also move between 1 and 2, and 2 and 3,so you create more angles in your tai sabaki. Its impossible and hard to relate to move to the 37' angle, but moving to the 1 on the clock would be close. You needn't worry where you step as long as you are alighned and as long as you are aware that the angles of the octagon are not all that there are, there are much more.[/QUOTE]Hey again Lou,I almost forgot, i think of it as wheels within wheels----Like Anthony Hopkin's MASK OF ZORRO.The Master's Wheel.I think i might have made,me a pendant with lines of force,etc---and call it the "{Master's Wheel)".....like Zorro!

MOVING WITHIN THE "MASTER's WHEEL"---Looking at arm movements w/in the Wheel, Strikes-to be specific.Hitting,- is proved through momentum, to be FASTER,AND MORE POWERFUL.Two Arcs...form a circle.When you lift dumbbells, the arcs of the arm are more apparent.Whenever you incorperate internally ( This means psychologically )-two arcs, in other words--a circle,into your hits...you make them faster and more powerful.The circular internal 'flight paths'--of your hits,can be small,oval patterns.To understand the science behind it,a car has to gain momentum&speed.But a car further down the road--already has speed and momentuum generated, thus it nearly blows you over as it passes speedily.You can also see this effect when you twitch your finger in circular movements(like a 0).....your finger is moving so fast that it is a BLUR TO YOU.Many people will be displaying this effect this fourth of july weekend---w/sparklers!, what is chief to keep in mind is that you can do this w/almost no effort.Like wheels on a car,Circles SIMULATE THE EFFECT OF SPEED GAINED BECAUSE OF DISTANCE.By thinking in terms of small(Or slightly bigger)--tight circles, and internalize them into your hits.....this engages the "whips of the body."

ki goes back where it came from, full circle.Where the head goes the body must follow.15 degrees is all the variation that is require for a throw. if you move 45 degrees forward and tenkan your opponent should not be able to hit you, of course depending on the length of your step.the original karate symbol is also the same kenji as it is for rice, two exes overlayed making up the eight directions.my former aikido sensei told me that tai chi is actually the most dangerous martial art against multiple attackers, chen style.He can be a scary man and he wouldn't mess with the tai chi fighters of asia.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steven:Change the way you think. Don't look for circles. Ki comes from infinity and extends to infinity. If you look for cirlces it reflects whats going on in your mind.[/QUOTE]I'm sorry.....did we lose you?--or was you ever there? I do not need to "change the way i think".If you do not understand something, it is best to keep silent.But foolish to mock what you dont understand.My personal ways incorperate STRAIGHT ON LINEAR ATTACK(LIKE IN KARATE)....and circular movements.Think of austin power's necklace of the "man" symbol/ie: straightline connected to a CIRCLE.This is more in line w/how i think.I use both.Well people, its been fun, this has been an interesting board, but i think this thread has run it's course.Perhaps we will meet again on another thread.---Terry

P.S. By the way, I know alot of you are into Mysticism,Buddism,the "universe"--etc.Thats fine.If that WORKS FOR YOU,more power to 'ya!--However, you need to know that all do not think that way.Some people have sundayschool childhood memories.They believe that if they adopt buddism for example....thats violating a commandment of God to have no other gods BEFORE Him.And TO THESE PEOPLE...this adds to the danger in a real life confrontation.And most assuredly, DOES NOT put them "AT ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE".I am at peace.I have faced numerous life threatening situations that many never will.Once a fellow bouncer outside the club had slipped in a fight,was knocked out, and when i turned the corner to see him...one of the guys was about to send a BOOT down on his face.This could kill him.There were 5-repeat-FIVE guys hovered around this knocked out bouncer.I had to take on all five.By myself.I did.successfully.Only a person truly "at one with the universe"---In my case, that means GOD.-----COULD HAVE DONE THIS.

p.p.s. By the way,thanks for the reply reaper.And thanks to all that was kind enough to reply and share somethings.Some final thoughts,If there are some that come across this board, and wonder about the Universe& theology-etc,and where does fighting fit in.In my opinion,You need to base your fighting first&foremost into reality.From thence, stick strictly to science.Aikido has a strong science base.As do SOME others.But i am not one of those that believe in a strictly passive style.Thats why I practice the LINE&theCIRCLE.You need both.Offensive,DIRECT linear attack (The line)---and circular ability.As far as philosophies, if it works --fine.Me personally, i want my philosophies regarding combat, to be in harmony with the science aspect.I have no use for fantasy.Its got to work in real life, or it's useless.But thats just me!-----ok, I really enjoyed it, thanks again, and i am sure we will meet again on some other board,....at some other time!---Terry