Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Since St Paul talks about spouses abstaining temporarily for the sake of prayer, I think it's understood that we can't expect couples to be praying during those moments. This doesn't make marital relations evil, but I think it shows how marriage can be an impediment to the highest goal of spiritual life, which is unceasing prayer. Presumably this is a reason why monasticism has traditionally been considered a higher way of life for Christians.

Aren't we always supposed to practice unceasing prayer? That being said, I would not necessarily seek out to practice unceasing prayer during that time. Like, "oh hey, relations, time to get my pray on!"

Of course if you do it right, one of you should be praising God anyway

Presumably this is a reason why monasticism has traditionally been considered a higher way of life for Christians.

In Roman Catholicism.

In both Roman Catholicism and in Eastern Orthodoxy, the foundation of monastic life was the same. Monasticism was referred to as the angelic life. Have you ever read the biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov?

Presumably this is a reason why monasticism has traditionally been considered a higher way of life for Christians.

In Roman Catholicism.

In both Roman Catholicism and in Eastern Orthodoxy, the foundation of monastic life was the same. Monasticism was referred to as the angelic life. Have you ever read the biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov?

No. But that doesn't change the fact that he estranged himself from his family to pursue Church career. I have same reservations for St. Luke of Crimea.

Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).

Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Maybe I'm being fusty, but I don't like the color of these jokes. We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.

I agree. It seems as if people today believe that they must read porn before having relations, when porn actually destroys marital love and is itself a form of adultery.

In Roman Catholicism, the Couple to Couple League, which teaches Natural Family Planning, encourages couples to pray all the time, even during their marital embrace. Praying helps men and women to control their lust and embrace each other in chastity and love. Healthy married couples will still experience ecstatic joy, but it will be heavenly pure love.

Marriage then truly becomes a triune circle of love: God, husband, and wife.

Hm, I'm wondering if William was being serious.

I do not think he was joking, but that he was serious. No smilie.

I recall reading in the biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov that he encouraged married couples to pray the Jesus Prayer unceasingly, especially those who had infertility problems. They successfully bore children following his advice.

Plus it would be a great reminder of one's own sinfulness to say the prayer during such a time: here I am a most wretched sinner unable to live with my wife as with a sister as Adam did on Paradise or St. John in Kronstadt.

There are so many comments that could be made in this thread (some of my own ideas have already been contributed here, so I can continue to pretend to retain whatever image of sanctity some of you may have of me!). I will contribute "ask your priest", presuming this is a serious question.

Also, I'd echo what Shanghaiski wrote above. When one has obtained the gift of unceasing prayer from God, s/he'll know what to do in their own personal life with such questions. Until then, it's rather useless to speculate on things above our abilities (perhaps that's another reason why many of us are defaulting to "humor"). Better to focus on bettering our prayer life at the times we pray, and to focus on bettering other activities when we are engaged in them. "Let the reader understand."

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Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.

Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).

Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

From the subject line I was already aware that this was a strange topic

However since I never had sex in the context of marriage sex has never seemed to be a pure and holy thing to me at all but the church it seems, marriage vs. monastic debate aside, affirms marital relations as such.

I was genuinely curious if prayer was ever a part of it, as I'm still trying to sort out my own marriage vs monastic calling.

From the subject line I was already aware that this was a strange topic

However since I never had sex in the context of marriage sex has never seemed to be a pure and holy thing to me at all but the church it seems, marriage vs. monastic debate aside, affirms marital relations as such.

I was genuinely curious if prayer was ever a part of it, as I'm still trying to sort out my own marriage vs monastic calling.

I think Shaghaiski's advice is very good. No one can really answer this question unless they actually reach a state of unceasing prayer. Until then, I don't think you need to reach such a high level to figure out your own calling. Just don't forget to pray that God guide you into whatever He calls you to do.

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

From the subject line I was already aware that this was a strange topic

However since I never had sex in the context of marriage sex has never seemed to be a pure and holy thing to me at all but the church it seems, marriage vs. monastic debate aside, affirms marital relations as such.

I was genuinely curious if prayer was ever a part of it, as I'm still trying to sort out my own marriage vs monastic calling.

I'm not sure it's possible to divide prayer from our lives. Many saints counsel to pray even if one is sinning--that is, in all humility, to ask for God's salvation in the midst of one's own weakness that, eventually, one will turn around.

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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).

Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.

Right. It is marriage in its exalted state that is the model for monasticism. The point is that some here want to denigrate monasticism because they wish to exalt marriage only in its earthly, carnal aspect.

I'm not sure it's possible to divide prayer from our lives. Many saints counsel to pray even if one is sinning--that is, in all humility, to ask for God's salvation in the midst of one's own weakness that, eventually, one will turn around.

While this may take us on a tangent, this is such an important point. Somewhere in my own "walk", I accepted the supposedly Roman Catholic teaching (supposedly because I'm not sure if it's actually what they teach, but my sources certainly thought so) that, if you are in a state of sin, any spiritual efforts, prayer, fasting, etc., were useless and wasted until one reconciled with God and returned to a state of grace. Until that time, God wasn't listening to you, so it was pointless to even try.

And with that, whole portions of my life passed without so much as a whisper of a prayer because I figured God wasn't listening if I wasn't "right" in his sight. And down and down we go...until I came across the Orthodox teaching above. I'm still recovering, but it's such a help in the spiritual struggle to know that, whether we are "right" or "wrong", God's always waiting to hear us and help us if we approach him with as much humility as we can muster; to know that, though we have to do our part, it is his to show mercy and to save, and he'll do it as long as we cooperate with him, and we can do that at any moment, even now, no matter where we are or what condition we're in.

No other God is worth believing in.

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"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.

I'm not sure it's possible to divide prayer from our lives. Many saints counsel to pray even if one is sinning--that is, in all humility, to ask for God's salvation in the midst of one's own weakness that, eventually, one will turn around.

While this may take us on a tangent, this is such an important point. Somewhere in my own "walk", I accepted the supposedly Roman Catholic teaching (supposedly because I'm not sure if it's actually what they teach, but my sources certainly thought so) that, if you are in a state of sin, any spiritual efforts, prayer, fasting, etc., were useless and wasted until one reconciled with God and returned to a state of grace. Until that time, God wasn't listening to you, so it was pointless to even try.

And with that, whole portions of my life passed without so much as a whisper of a prayer because I figured God wasn't listening if I wasn't "right" in his sight. And down and down we go...until I came across the Orthodox teaching above. I'm still recovering, but it's such a help in the spiritual struggle to know that, whether we are "right" or "wrong", God's always waiting to hear us and help us if we approach him with as much humility as we can muster; to know that, though we have to do our part, it is his to show mercy and to save, and he'll do it as long as we cooperate with him, and we can do that at any moment, even now, no matter where we are or what condition we're in.

Plus it would be a great reminder of one's own sinfulness to say the prayer during such a time: here I am a most wretched sinner unable to live with my wife as with a sister as Adam did on Paradise or St. John in Kronstadt.