Thursday, July 20, 2017

Daemons Discuss - Podcast: Take 19! | Chapter Discussion about the All Souls Trilogy; Ch 21 - 25 of A Discovery of Witches

These chapters take place at Sept-Tours (pictured: Château-Dauphin - the inspiration for the de Clermont fortress)

Take 19 - The One with the Visions, the Vow and the Venetian

Description: Matthew Clairmont and Diana Bishop have reached a new height in their relationship! Great, right? Well ... Ysabeau is skeptical, Matthew is tentative, and Domenico really has something to say about it, or more correctly, the CONGREGATION does!
✮ What is the Congregation? We learn about the mysterious panel of nine in these chapters, and it appears it was a secret only to Diana! There so are many more secrets for Diana (and the reader) to uncover. It seems we all have a lot to learn about vampires -- names, hunting rituals, pack rules, family origins, and secret vampire organizations, to list a few!
✮ From the vampire greeting her with a morning breakfast tray one day, to a late night declaration of love on another, we travel a bit further on the bumpy road to Bishop-Clairmont.

SPOILER ALERT! We (The Daemons) approach this podcast with an assumption that the listener has read The All Souls Trilogy, including A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night, and The Book of Life. If you haven't, and you don't mind, we certainly don't mind! 😊 Let's do this.

1. Show notes:

For newcomers to the series:
- We'll start with the basics: The books in discussion are A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night and The Book of Life. Together they make The All Souls Trilogy by Deborah Harkness.
- Our Daemon Guidesto the All Souls Trilogy are available for download: ADOW, SON, TBOL

- If you'd like a ready-reference from the author herself, be sure to download the All Souls Real-Time Reading companion (free e-book at online booksellers via Penguin and Headline books).
- Deborah Harkness usually conducts a real-time reading on her Facebook Page (starting in September), and shares her posts across social media. Check out her website
for all of her social media links, and of course all that she has to
offer her readers! Be sure to sign up for her newsletter while you are
there!
- To see what's available on the web as far as the All Souls universe fandom, check our links page.

In this episode:
* (00:50) – Thank you Discussers, Stephen & Wendy!

a. Chapter 21
* (03:37) – The Aurora Consurgens; we loved the passages, and we’ve often talked about these passages; see this episode & this blog post. We felt the Bible passages tended to throw the reader off. Angela sees the Bible passages as a way to demonstrate Matthew’s devotion to his religious faith. Jean also says Aurora Consurgens, with the Bible passages, would probably convince the pope that the manuscript wasn’t heresy. We discuss who is actually “dark and shadowed” in the pair, and why.

* (03:52) – Jean mentioned making a video featuring the Aurora Consurgens during our early days of Armitage4Clairmont: Forever is our Today.

* (08:57) – Cue dramatic music: BAM! Domenico. We appreciate Domenico’s entrance into the series, and we discuss Deb’s inspiration for him (the del Sarto painting; see above). We also wonder about Ysabeau's, Louisa's and Matthew’s relationship with him. Deb has said in the past that Domenico was a head of a vampire family.

* (11:54) – Domenico Michele: A horror to the Greeks - Domenico Michele was the 35th Doge of Venice. He reigned from 1117 to 1130. In August 1122 Domenico Michele led a Venetian fleet of 100 vessels and around 15,000 men for the defense of the Holy Lands. The fleet sailed under the flag of St. Peter, which the Pope had sent to Michele. Over the winter the fleet set siege to Corfu. The siege was cancelled in the spring when news arrived that King Baldwin II of Jerusalem had been captured by the Artuqids, and that the Kingdom of Jerusalem had subsequently been invaded by the Fatimids of Egypt. The Venetian fleet went to the defense of Jerusalem and defeated the Egyptian fleet off of the Syrian coast. The Venetians then landed at Acre; from there Michele went to Jerusalem, where the Pactum Warmundi was signed granting Venice privileged trade concessions, tax freedoms, and even partial ownership of some cities within the Kingdom of Jerusalem. See entire profile: Domenico Michele (Wikipedia)

* (12:13) – Domenico is the first one to bring up the covenant to Diana:

“Not before the witch hears what I have to say. I have come to serve you with a warning, Diana Bishop. Relationships between witches and vampires are forbidden. You must leave this house and no longer associate with Matthew de Clermont or any of his family. If you don’t, the Congregation will take whatever steps are necessary to preserve the covenant.”

* (12:47) – He knows Stephen! How much does he know?

The Venetian looked at me with interest before his head fell back and he howled with laughter. “They said you were argumentative like your father, but I didn’t believe them.”

Ysabeau moved swiftly to a pole that extended another dozen feet into the sky. She raised a forked black banner adorned with a silver ouroboros. It unfurled in the gloomy light, the snake holding its shimmering tail in its mouth. I ran to the far side of the crenellated walls, and Domenico looked up.

* (15:17) – That conversation between Matthew and Domenico. It does exist - Deb has said she's written that scene . . .

My attention turned to Matthew, who continued to exchange words with Domenico across a precisely drawn zone of engagement. There was a blur of black and gray movement, and the Venetian hurtled backward toward the chestnut tree he’d been leaning against when we first spotted him. A loud crack carried across the grounds.

* (15:51) – Domenico being an old friend = danger:

“Our family’s emblem, and a warning to the village to be on their guard,” she explained. “We fly the banner only when others are with us. The villagers have grown too accustomed to living among vampires, and though they have nothing to fear from us, we have kept it for times such as this. The world is full of vampires who cannot be trusted, Diana. Domenico Michele is one of them.”“You didn’t need to tell me that. Who the hell is he?”“One of Matthew’s oldest friends,” Ysabeau murmured, eyes on her son, “which makes him a very dangerous enemy.”

* (16:23) – Ysabeau warns Diana about usurping Matthew’s authority:

She snorted. “You won’t get the chance to do much before he takes you to task for questioning his authority in front of Domenico.”“I’m not under Matthew’s authority.”“You, my dear, have a great deal to learn about vampires,” she said with a note of satisfaction.

* (16:45) – If you love him . . .

“No, but you have the power to send him away. Tell him you refuse to break the covenant for him, for his sake—or that you feel nothing more for him than curiosity—witches are famous for it.” She flung me away. “If you love him, you’ll know what to say.”

We’d been waiting in the salon, the three of us, since he’d ridden off on Balthasar in the late morning. Now the shadows were lengthening toward twilight. A human would be half dead from the prolonged effort needed to control that enormous horse in the open countryside. However, the events of the morning had reminded me that Matthew wasn’t human, but a vampire—with many secrets, a complicated past, and frightening enemies.

“Really?” I asked, my temper flaring. “Do you think now is the time to tell me about the covenant? You don’t by any chance know the witches who are among the current members of the Congregation, do you? I have a few things I’d like to say to them.” My fingers were burning, and the skin under my nails was becoming a vivid sky blue.“You turned your back on your power, Diana, and refused to talk about magic. The covenant wasn’t relevant to your life, nor was the Congregation.” Sarah sounded defensive.

“So,” I said into the silence, “are we to expect more visitors from this Congregation?”Matthew’s mouth tightened. “No.”It was a one-word answer, but at least it was the word I wanted to hear. Over the past few days, I’d had a respite from Matthew’s mood changes and had almost forgotten how alarming they could be. His next words wiped away my hope that this latest outburst would soon pass.

* (20:33) – The visions begin …

“Or what?” I was deliberately provoking him, but his aloofness frightened me.He put down his wine, and the crystal captured the light from the candles.I felt myself falling, this time into a pool of water.The pool became a drop, the drop a tear glistening on a white cheek.Sarah’s cheeks were covered in tears, her eyes red and swollen. Em was in the kitchen. When she joined us, it was evident that she’ d been crying, too. She looked devastated.“What?” I said, fear gripping my stomach. “What’s happened?”Sarah wiped at her eyes, her fingers stained with the herbs and spices she used in her spell casting.Her fingers grew longer, the stains dissolving.“What?” Matthew said, his eyes wild, white fingers brushing a tiny, bloodstained tear from an equally white cheek. “What’s happened?”“Witches. They have your father,” Ysabeau said, her voice breaking.

* (21:00) – The voice prompts Diana to hold on:

He’s yours, a strange voice whispered. You mustn’t let him go.

* (21:17) – One of Jean’s favorite quotes from Matthew:

“You persist in this romantic vision of what it is to be a vampire, but despite my best efforts to curb it I have a taste for blood.”

* (21:47) – Marcus’ call …

“What is it?” he said, his eyes fixed on me.There were faint murmurs on the other end of the line. Marthe and Ysabeau exchanged worried glances.“When?” Matthew’s voice sounded like a gunshot. “Did they take anything?” My forehead creased at the anger in his voice. “Thank God. Was there damage?”Something had happened in Oxford while we were gone, and it sounded like a robbery. I hoped it wasn’t the Old Lodge.The voice on the other end of the phone continued. Matthew passed a hand over his eyes.“What else?” he asked, his voice rising.There was another long silence. He turned away and walked to the fireplace, his right hand splayed flat against the mantel.“So much for diplomacy.” Matthew swore under his breath. “I’ll be there in a few hours. Can you pick me up?

* (22:27) – Matthew’s erratic u-turns:

“I’ll get my things.” I turned toward the stairs.“You aren’t coming. You’re staying here.” Matthew’s words brought me to a standstill.“I’d rather be in Oxford,” I protested, “with you.”“Oxford’s not safe at the moment. I’ll be back when it is.”“You just told me we should return there! Make up your mind, Matthew. Where is the danger? The manuscript and the witches? Peter Knox and the Congregation? Or Domenico Michele and the vampires?”

The armor’s silvery surfaces winked in the firelight, holding my attention while a jumble of faces flashed through my mind, the visions as swift as comets through the sky. There was a pale woman with enormous blue eyes and a sweet smile, another woman whose firm chin and square shoulders exuded determination, a man with a hawkish nose in terrible pain. There were other faces, too, but the only one I recognized was Louisa de Clermont, holding dripping, bloody fingers in front of her face.Resisting the vision’s pull helped the faces fade, but it left my body shaking and my mind bewildered. The DNA report had indicated that visions were likely to come. But there’d been no more warning of their arrival than there had been last night when I floated in Matthew’s arms. It was as if someone had pulled the stopper on a bottle and my magic—released at last—was rushing to get out.

* (23:54) – When did Matthew issue all of his instructions?! The two spots that we can think of is when Diana runs up to get Matthew's passport, and later when Ysabeau was talking to (arguing with) Matthew in the courtyard just prior to his departure.

* (24:48) – We talk about how Ysabeau went a bit rogue with Matthew’s instructions! 😂

* (25:25) – Ysabeau would make a spectacular lawyer (Queen of the loopholes!)

“Did you also promise not to tell me what really happened in Oxford?”Matthew’s mother scrutinized me closely. “You must ask Matthew when he returns. It is not my tale to tell.”I had other questions as well—questions that Matthew might have been too distracted to mark as off-limits.“Can you tell me why it matters that it was a creature who tried to break in to the lab, rather than a human?”There was silence while Ysabeau considered my words. Finally, she replied.“Clever girl. I did not promise Matthew to remain silent about appropriate rules of conduct, after all.”

* (26:01) – We veer a little bit here talking about Baldwin’s and Ysabeau’s relationship. We determined they are more similar than different. Our episode The One With Personality outlined that perfectly!

*
(26:56) – We exit this chapter and get enveloped in the witchwater scene … we questioned if she was summonsing a storm or something else.

The Range Rover’s lights disappeared below the hill. With Matthew gone, I slid down the stone wall of the keep and gave in to the tears.It was then that I discovered what witchwater was all about.

c. Chapter 23
* (27:52) – The description of the witchwater scene sucked you in; Ysabeau sings Diana out of the torrent.

Exhaustion overtook me, and the water pulled me under. A strange sense of exhilaration accompanied the fatigue. I was poised between mortality and something elemental that held within it the promise of a vast, incomprehensible power. If I surrendered to the undertow, there would be no more Diana Bishop. Instead I would become water—nowhere, everywhere, free of my body and the pain.

Marthe grabbed Ysabeau’s arm, her mouth moving rapidly. Matthew’s mother tried to pull away, her own mouth shaping the word “no,” but Marthe held on, staring at her fixedly. After a few moments, Ysabeau’s shoulders slumped. She turned toward me and started to sing. Haunting and yearning, her voice penetrated the water and called me back to the world.

The Sirens and Ulysses

* (28:52) - Jean thinks of siren myths with Ysabeau. We theorize that maybe Ysabeau was an origin for the legends of the Siren, or to the Odyssey or even the Iliad.

* (30:08) - Marthe and Ysabeau’s care for Diana – we feel Ysabeau after this episode realizes how much Matthew cares for Diana and vice/versa.

* (31:20) – Ysabeau’s story time! A portion:

Ysabeau continued to spin her tale, seeming only partially in the twenty-first century.“Matthew was born in the village. He was always such a bright child, so curious. He drove his father mad, following him to the château and picking up tools and sticks and stones. Children learned their trades early then, but Matthew was precocious. By the time he could hold a hatchet without injuring himself, he was put to work.”An eight-year-old Matthew with gangly legs and gray-green eyes ran around the hills in my imagination.“Yes.” She smiled, agreeing with my unspoken thoughts. “He was indeed a beautiful child. A beautiful young man as well. Matthew was unusually tall for the time, though not as tall as he became once he was a vampire.

* (33:04) – We get to see the full picture of how Matthew was made:

“Did Matthew resist you?” I asked, unable to stop myself.“No,” she replied. “He was out of his mind with pain. We told everyone to leave, saying we would fetch a priest. We didn’t, of course. Philippe and I went to Matthew and explained we could make him live forever, without pain, without suffering. Much later Matthew told us that he thought we were John the Baptist and the Blessed Mother come to take him to heaven to be with his wife and child. When I offered him my blood, he thought I was the priest offering him last rites.”

* (33:34) – Matthew’s call:

“Diana?” Matthew was barely audible.“Yes?” I didn’t trust myself to say much for fear that more than words would tumble out.He made a soft sound of relief. “I just wanted to make sure you were all right.”“Your mother and Marthe are taking good care of me.” And I didn’t flood the castle, I thought.“You’re tired.” The distance between us was making him anxious, and he was tuned into every nuance of our exchange.“I am. It’s been a long day.”“Sleep, then,” he said, his tone unexpectedly gentle. My eyes closed against the sudden sting of tears. There would be little sleep for me tonight. I was too worried about what he might do in some half-baked, heroic attempt to protect me.“Have you been to the lab?”“I’m headed there now. Marcus wants me to go over everything carefully and make sure we’ve taken all the necessary precautions. Miriam’s checked the security at the house as well.” He told the half-truth with smooth conviction, but I knew it for what it was. The silence stretched out until it became uncomfortable.“Don’t do it, Matthew. Please don’t try to negotiate with Knox.”“I’ll make sure you’re safe before you return to Oxford.”

d. Chapter 24
* (34:00) – Let’s go hunting!

“Matthew made me promise to take you outdoors. He said it would keep you from getting sick,” Ysabeau explained.

* (34:17) – Catherine de Medici; we've written about her before, and Ysabeau talks about her here:

“It is better now that the saddles have two pommels,” Ysabeau said. “Before, all sidesaddles were good for was being led around by a man.” Her disgust was audible. “It was not until the Italian queen put a pommel and stirrup on her saddle that we could control our own horses. Her husband’s mistress rode astride so she could go with him when he exercised. Catherine was always being left at home, which is most unpleasant for a wife.” She shot me a withering glance. “Henry’s whore was named after the goddess of the hunt, like you.”

* (34:57) – The “triangle” Jean refers to is the one between Henry II, Catherine de Medici, and Diane de Poitiers. Read the Weekly Geek on it here: Weekly Geek! Which One is the Witch?

A marmot - one of the courses of Ysabeau's meal!

* (35:04) – Ysabeau snacks? Nope! She went for a 5 course meal!

I was numb to the sight of blood after the rabbit, the enormous squirrel-like creature that Ysabeau told me was a marmot, the fox, and the wild goat—or so I thought. When Ysabeau gave chase to a young doe, however, something prickled inside me.

* (36:05) – The end of Ysabeau’s test:

Ysabeau grabbed my horse’s reins. There were tiny drops of blood on her cream shirt. “Do you think vampires are beautiful now? Do you still think it would be easy to live with my son, knowing that he must kill to survive?”It was difficult for me to put “Matthew” and “killing” in the same sentence. Were I to kiss him one day, when he was just returned from hunting, there might still be the taste of blood on his lips. And days like the one I was now spending with Ysabeau would be regular occurrences.“If you’re trying to frighten me away from your son, Ysabeau, you failed,” I said resolutely. “You’re going to have to do better than this.”“Marthe said this would not be enough to make you reconsider,” she confessed.

* (37:07) – Marthe’s tea…

Marthe kept me busy for hours, sorting dried herbs and spices into tiny piles and teaching me their names. By midafternoon I could identify them by smell with my eyes closed as well as by appearance.“Parsley. Ginger. Feverfew. Rosemary. Sage. Queen Anne’s lace seeds. Mugwort. Pennyroyal. Angelica. Rue. Tansy. Juniper root.” I pointed to each in turn.“Again,” Marthe said serenely, handing me a bunch of muslin bags.

* (40:13) – The child's toy:

But this little wooden tower, made with love an unimaginably long time ago, brought my illusions to an end. There were children to consider, both living and dead. There were families involved, including my own, with long and complicated genealogies and deeply ingrained prejudices, including my own. And Sarah and Em still didn’t know that I was in love with a vampire. It was time to share that news.

* (41:00) – “Canon” literary definition - In fiction, canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction. We say the rule "names are important" is now canon in the All Souls universe.

* (41:40) – Diana’s call to Sarah to break the news that she was in love with a vampire.

“You’ll be worrying for a good long time, then,” I said stubbornly. “I love Matthew, Sarah.”“That’s impossible, Diana. Vampires and witches—” Sarah began.“Domenico told me about the covenant,” I interjected. “I’m not asking anyone else to break it, and I understand that this might mean you can’t or won’t have anything to do with me. For me there’s no choice.”

* (43:03) – We talk about how Diana’s literal rise in power was the figurative fall for Emily – we'll talk more about it when we get to The Book of Life chapters . . .

1964 Vega Sicilia - the wine that Matthew was drinking when Diana called ...

* (44:21) – Diana’s call to Matthew:

“What are you drinking?” It was the only detail my imagination couldn’t supply.“Since when have you cared about wine?” He sounded genuinely surprised.“Since I found out how much there was to know.” Since I found out that you cared about wine, you idiot.“Something Spanish tonight—Vega Sicilia.”

e. Chapter 25
* (46:48) – The snooping chapter! One of Angela’s faves – this is what she pictured Diana’s jaunt through Matthew’s library was like:

Matthew’s massive mahogany desk was as dark and solid as its owner, and it exuded the same gravitas. It had drawers extending down both sides of the space left for his knees, the drawers resting on round, bun-shaped feet. Just below the writing surface, running all around the perimeter, was a thick band of carving. Acanthus leaves, tulips, scrolls, and geometrical shapes invited you to trace their outlines. Unlike the surface of my desk—which was always piled so high with papers, books, and half-drunk cups of tea that you risked disaster whenever you tried to work on it—this desk held only an Edwardian desk pad, a sword-shaped letter opener, and the lamp. Like Matthew, it was a bizarrely harmonious blend of ancient and modern.

* (48:20) – Matthew’s seal:

Inscribed around the edge of the seal was the date MDCI—1601 in Roman numerals—along with the words “secretum Lazari”— “the secret of Lazarus.”It couldn’t be a coincidence that Lazarus, like a vampire, had made the journey from life to death and back again. Moreover, the cross, combined with a legendary figure from the Holy Land and the mention of knights, strongly suggested that the seals in Matthew’s desk drawer belonged to one of the orders of Crusader knights established in the Middle Ages. The best known were the Templars, who had mysteriously disappeared in the early fourteenth century after being accused of heresy and worse. But I’d never heard of the Knights of Lazarus.

* (48:33) – Philippe's seal … some speculation here: Valerie theorizes (based on his names), why Matthew had it. Jean brings up our theory about the name Bertrand. Angela brings up that Matthew was Philippe’s seneschal and may have used it in that capacity. We also speculate that Matthew is holding on to the seal because he doesn't have the heart to destroy it.

Moving as quickly and quietly as possible, I flipped the other seal over in its velvet-lined niche. It was nearly identical to Matthew’s, except that the upper right quadrant held only the crescent moon and “Philippus” was inscribed around the border.This seal had belonged to Matthew’s father, which mean that the Knights of Lazarus were a de Clermont family affair.

* (50:25) – Follow the money…

The money. It was one of the first lessons historians learned: follow the money. I refocused my search.

* (52:28) – The ledgers …

The sturdy outlines of the first ledger were visible on the third shelf, tucked between Al-Hazen’s Optics and a romantic French chanson de geste. A small Greek letter was inked on the manuscript’s fore edge: α. Figuring it must be an indexing mark of some sort, I scanned the shelves and located the second account book. It, too, had a small Greek letter, β. My eyes lit on γ, δ, and ε, scattered among the shelves, too. A more careful search would locate the rest, I was sure.

* (51:47) – The Templars were a “buy out,” a “merger,” or a “takeover” by the Knights of Lazarus:

There were hundreds of names marked with red crosses. Were they all Templars? If so, then the mystery of the Templars was solved. The knights and their money hadn’t disappeared. Both had simply been absorbed into the order of Lazarus.It couldn’t be true. Such a thing would have taken too much planning and coordination. And no one could have kept such a grand scheme secret. The idea was as implausible as stories about—Witches and vampires.

* (52:48) Housekeeping! Thank you Kate! We will probably make an entire episode based on your insightful email.

* (56:42) Promo break – scroll down, or click here to get a hold of us and/or become a Discusser.

* (58:12) – Our collective last thought is about All Souls Con. Angela can’t wait to eat, drink, be merry and to do our fan-panel. Valerie has booked her ticket – one thing has changed since we’ve recorded, her ticket was changed to an earlier arrival, no more night arrival. We talk about tipping the Uber driver to make up for all the noise for the “squees”. Our Daemon Hour event will be updated as we get closer. Info on All Souls Con:

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