Does life have a purpose? Is some Divine Plan unfolding? Why are we born?

Why does the sun rise? Why does the wind blow?

Do the sun and wind each ask themselves such questions? Or do they just shine and gust?

Does the absence of an answer "why" make the sun's warmth on your shoulders, and the cool breeze on your cheek, any less real?

In other words, you were born ... for whatever reason or no reason at all. You were born, that is a fact. So, shine ... LIVE!

Now, David wrote this ...

Quote:

I always believed that Zen leads to direct experience of ‘truth’ or reality without filters. I thought Zen was about going beyond mere beliefs and actually KNOWING, so it’s a shock to hear that Zen makes you none the wiser as to whether there is any purpose or point to all this. Do I have that right? I imagined Zen to be kind of getting in direct contact with the ... plan that is unfolding ... a universe that has some underlying principle, purpose or 'set up'.

Our Zen Practice is the direct experience of 'truth', reality without filters ... the sun on our shoulders, wind on our cheek, we are ALIVE! What is more unfiltered, intimate, direct experience than that?

If you ask me for the "why" of vanilla ice cream, its "truth" ... I will tell you to taste the sweetness on your own tongue.

That is beyond mere belief ... that is KNOWING. Do you really need the recipe to the ice cream in order to enjoy it? Or, for that matter, the name of the ice cream maker? The color of his shoes, or his wife's maiden name? Is it not enough to taste it for yourself, and find its meaning on the end of your own tongue?

Is it not enough to say that the purpose of ice cream is to eat it on a hot day, and likewise, the purpose of life is to live it? That is, to me, life's 'purpose' ... living ... and I am in direct contact with it. One might even say I am it, and it is me ... that is how intimate I am with the purpose of life.

Silly human beings: We cook up in our own minds the words "purpose" and "purposeless", "meaning" and "meaningless" ... even the words "plan" and "destination" may be human inventions. Where do these standards and concepts come from but the measuring, judging brain ... a brain that may makes its own subjective standards (figments of our imagination). What if we dropped those words from mind? Does the sun ask each morning "what is my purpose"? And when the sun's rays cause a flower to sprout up from a seed ... is that flower following some "plan", does it compare itself to the other flowers as to whether it is of greater or lesser value, a "flower" or a "weed" (only the human gardener does that)? Is its growth "meaningful" or "meaningless"? Would it somehow not be as much, or more, a flower dependent on the answer to any of that? The flower speaks by its silence. (Heck, is it even a "flower" when we drop the human word "flower" from mind?)

Silly questions!

I do not know if this universe has a plan, or a creator who made some plan. I don't think any human being knows or has ever known for sure, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or any shade of Buddhist. Nobody knows. I could make up some magical myth, or silly story, to tell you ... like all the other religions do, but I won't bother.

Please understand this, and it is one key to Zen Practice (we now move from flowers and ice cream to boat similes ... ):

Our life is very mysterious, and to be born as a sentient being is very much like waking up suddenly & sentient, for no known reason, in a row boat in the middle of a unknown river. An oar is in your hand. No idea how you got there, but there you are. You may not know who (if any "who") made the boat, the river, you, the mosquitoes, the surrounding shore that stretches to the horizon. But, here you find yourself, in life's little boat, with a paddle, heading down that river. River runs before you, seems like it came from somewhere behind. You do not know why (if any "why"). What to do?

Just paddle paddle, sometimes drift drift.

And what's more, our Zen Practice allows us to see that we are the river, the boat, the mosquitoes ... In this way, we realize that where the river flows, is where we flow. What's more, the river's flowing is just our flowing. In other words, we may not know where (if anywhere) the river is going, or where (if anywhere) the river arose ... but we go with the flow! We ARE the flowing! Don't resist.

Shoot, that river's gonna take you where its going anyway! :D

So, in conclusion, I think Zen Folks come to look on this universe with tremendous trust. It is not a matter of knowing "why" or "the plan" ... it is more a feeling of trust that this boat will take us where it will get us. Yes, I have a "suspicion" (nothing more) that, since events worked out so nicely to place me in this boat, in this river, an oar in my hand ... well, it is going somewhere for some reason. I have my "suspicions" (nothing more) that, given all that was required by physics, chemistry and biology to create this human body amid the seemingly endless potential for me not to have been born, not to be here right now ... I think it likely not a purely random and "purposeless" event (I am actually writing a book on this right now, tracing the history of physical, chemical and biological events that meandered around to our human births on earth ... we are the beneficiaries of a lot of seeming good fortune necessary for us to be alive. I have my doubts that it is purely random; quite likely, 'tis something very profound). Maybe we are the eyes and ears of the universe, or god telling stories to himself, or some god damned thing ...

But I do not know for sure. And in the meantime, I am content to enjoy the ride. It is my ride, my life.

I am sorry if that answer is not sufficient for you.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - I have often thought that, if there is a "plan" ... it is likely something that we are just too stupid to grasp anyway, much as an insect's brain could not begin to grasp the workings of a 747.

And anyway, if there is a designer with a "plan" I am sure she would have told us the "plan" if she wanted us to know it. :wink:

10-23-2008, 04:33 PM

Jundo

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

By the way, I am going to do a special "Sit-a-long" tonight in which I will ask a flower these questions. Please be sure to catch it.

As a (perhaps transitional) attempt to get to the most fundamental level of acceptance and trust, there is a tool that I've found helpful. In the grand scheme of the centuries, millions of folks have come and gone, mostly unknown and lost to the knowledge of the present time. However, each of them somehow, had an effect on who is here now, either through biology (being a descendant) or by having a simple influence on a contemporary of their time.

I always wanted to know my grand purpose as well. So, I finally just picked one, and was able to move on from there. I have a purpose at work, and I have a purpose at home. Granted, someone else could do my job, and someone else could be the wife to my husband, but NO ONE can do either one with the same ways and with the same effect that I do them. So, my purpose is to function in those roles, and that's enough.

Just look at something you do now, or something you are now, and that is by default already established as being your purpose. The simplest day, like the pebble thrown in the water with the ripples going out, means that our simple day has it's own ripples. We have an effect on things and people both immediate and remote (remote in both time and distance). That, in and of itself, is purpose.

Part of the problem of this question stems from feeling that what 'is' is not 'enough'. That idea is exactly what Zen works on, to cut that attachment to 'more' short, and learn that what 'is' is indeed all there 'is', and it is indeed 'enough'.

Poorly worded, but I hope it makes some kind of sense. No time to edit for the moment.

Gassho, Ann

10-23-2008, 06:05 PM

Jundo

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Hi Anne,

I know that this universe without you and me would probably get on quite well, never missing us.

But then again, it would be a universe without beautiful, wonderful Anne ... and thus missing that something, I think. It would be a different universe, as different as the Himalayas would be different without any one of those grand peaks, football without Manchester United or some other club, or the Louvre without the Mona Lisa or any of its great collection.

Sure, the building and other thousands of paintings would still be there without that one enigmatic smile ... yet ... yet ... it all just would not be the same. :wink: :wink:

Anyway, I just finished my talk with the guest teacher ... his answers to these BIG questions were much better than I could ever manage. Please have a look at what the flower had to say ...

I have driven my "self" crazy asking why for too many years to count. I thought I had to have all the answers, and was disappointed to find out that I would never have all the answers. Until I found Buddhism...Zen...

It's not that I haven't stopped asking why all the time, but I've just realized that maybe... like you've said it Jundo...maybe, I'm not supposed to know why. It's just not that necessary for me to live my life fully and joyfully. Let it(whatever 'it' is for us) be...and live.

Do I believe there is something bigger than "me" out there? Sure...do I know what it is?...No. Do I still sometimes pray to this unknown collective force out there "just in case"? Um, yeah. But I also sit zazen everyday. I read the precepts everyday. I find peace in knowing that I am only as good as I am in this moment right now. And I try to be the best 'me' in every moment thereafter.

Ann - I loved your post. It made more sense than you think. I'm sure your words ring true for so many of us...like the following:

Quote:

Just look at something you do now, or something you are now, and that is by default already established as being your purpose. The simplest day, like the pebble thrown in the water with the ripples going out, means that our simple day has it's own ripples. We have an effect on things and people both immediate and remote (remote in both time and distance). That, in and of itself, is purpose.

Part of the problem of this question stems from feeling that what 'is' is not 'enough'. That idea is exactly what Zen works on, to cut that attachment to 'more' short, and learn that what 'is' is indeed all there 'is', and it is indeed 'enough'.

I know what it is like to feel like what I do is not "enough". I'm still working on that... :wink:

These are wonderful topics to discuss...thank you Jundo for giving us all a sounding board for these tough questions.

With much respect,

Kelly R

10-23-2008, 07:49 PM

Jinho

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Quote:

Originally Posted by chessie

Part of the problem of this question stems from feeling that what 'is' is not 'enough'.

Gassho, Ann

Thank you for stating it so clearly for me (I have a very simple mind, needs simple sentences). Yes, perhaps it is an emotional disatisfaction which leads to a quest for an intellectual/analytical/philosophical "solution" to the problem of this feeling of disatisfaction, or of wanting more.

thank you for your time and your wonderful, kind posts,
rowan

10-23-2008, 09:08 PM

Shugen

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Thank you Ann.

I think your reply was perfectly worded.

Ron

10-24-2008, 02:54 AM

Shui_Di

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Quote:

Does life have a purpose? Is some Divine Plan unfolding? Why are we born?

For the one who make this questions....

are those questions bother you???
if the answer is "YES"...

then drop it.....

Why you burden your head...?

That question is come from your mind... just keep it flows... some times there's a question, sometimes is an answer... some times no question at all...... sometimes no answer...

But, that's the reality of mind. Just "as it is". Keep it flows...

The question is the answer....

Gassho, Shuidi :D

10-24-2008, 04:45 AM

Borsuk

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Some beautiful, deep, and sensitive words from everyone :D Your words give me a peace somehow and I think I may be getting a better idea of what Zen practice is about...

I sense that something beautiful and profound is happening here and that it is not simply random. I do not know what 'it' is, but that is my feeling. However, I always believed that through Zen practice that sense would turn into certainty. However, if what you guys are saying is true (and if I have understood it correctly), it seems that I have been quite mistaken...

You seem to basically be speaking of 'faith' in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word. This has never quenched my spiritual thirst, which is why I was attracted to Zen because I believed that it trancended 'faith' in the 'ultimate', 'divine', or whatever we call it, and made direct contact. No need for 'faith' after you've made direct contact... In essesnce, I have believed that Zen realistion is 'to see God', although I have not believed in any external, separate, divine being...

Could it be that Zen practice helps let you know that something wonderful (and not random) is afoot, while relinquishing you from the need to explain exactly what it is or define it in any way? This is my tentative, optimistic quiery :wink: That would be something. But to be left completely in the dark...

The river and boat analogy is beautiful and moving... So Zen lets you know that you are the river, but not what the nature of the river is, why it's there, or where it's going?? It shows you directly the oneness of reality, but not anything of the nature of that One??

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you all :D

Gassho,
David G.

10-24-2008, 06:07 AM

Taigu

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Thank you Ann, Kelly and of course Jundo,

Exhausting both questions and answers does not turn you into a flat piece of dead wood. It is as Jundo describes it very alive, very bright with plenty of juicy adventures and discoveries. Our tradition doesn t aim at producing brain-dead people, kind of distant and not committed to This. The tapestry of reality is much appreciated in its endless diversity. Dancing is also our path. Speaking, laughing. Being really human. And yes, Ann, sometimes answers will arise, but the temptation to make them universal is dropped, you may get to a point where you see the world as such and such but you know, deep down, from your bottomless depth, that it is just your view and cannot be extended further than your own thinking world. In other words we may need to make answers to function in this society and world, but at the same time, we just know their are true in the only realm of our rambling thoughts. The real problem with religion is the will to make a single view the reference point for everything and everybody. The very treasure and challenge of this path of just sitting and being is the realization of how empty, impermanent and unimportant our belief systems can be.

I quite like asian art and buddhist items, nevertheless a real Buddha doesn t look like any of this golden statues, beautiful and shining and peaceful faces of compassion, a real Buddha has endless forms and none. Just like my good friend Senju Kannon, the Kannon with more than a thousand arms. That thing looking like a bit of expensive antique is in fact, getting up, washing, drinking water or coffee, eating my bananas, getting dressed...Everyday is a display of the many arms of compassion which are given to me through very simple stuff and daily chores and joys. That doesn t kill the beauty of the statue. It reveals it even more and, at the same time, I feel more detached from it.
Let s enjoy our beliefs and know that they are but a dream. Which is detachment.

10-24-2008, 10:32 AM

MikeBr

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

"In the beginning, God created the earth, and He looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness.

And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he asked politely.

"Everything must have a purpose?" asked God.

"Certainly," said man.

"Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God.

And He went away."

(Kurt Vonnegut Jr, "Cat's Cradle")

And...

As we drove through the countryside, my four-year-old daughter looked out of the window, pointed, and asked, "Daddy, why is that field?"

I've yet to pass that koan :|

Gassho

10-24-2008, 10:46 AM

Shohei

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Thank you for these Big Questions people and for your each of your answers :) I'm not the sharpest cookie in the tool shed ( ;D) so this stuff often either sneaks around me with out my notice or I' m to busy muddling through to think about asking any questions :X However....

I used to ask the "great plan" question a lot some time ago when i lost my brother and I think I came to the conclusion - the answer is not with in my grasp.
Later it came to me the answer is within my grasp- it just didn't matter. Today I feel this is a question that rarely pops up. For me, its "Enjoy the ride" since the destination is inevitable and to stop the in the middle of the highway to ask a question will just leave me watching life continually flowing by (or get tire tracks up my back). Stoping to ask is the answer its self - if you just stop and be for a moment-- that right there is my answer and if I am off the mark - well then I am and life will go on no matter what size, how fast or who is looking. Im a bit simple though :D

Gassho
Dirk

10-24-2008, 10:49 AM

Shohei

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeBr

As we drove through the countryside, my four-year-old daughter looked out of the window, pointed, and asked, "Daddy, why is that field?"

I've yet to pass that koan :|

:lol: That is priceless! Our 2 and a half year old gave me this one... "What does blue go?" o_O

Thanks Mike for that smile :D
Gassho dirk

10-25-2008, 12:41 AM

AlanLa

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

My purpose in life right now is to be Here answering This. My purpose in life earlier today was to be doing other things as appropriate to that time and place. And so on....

I firmly believe that everything in my life led me to this moment, to BE and DO as I am in this moment (I also believe the same is true for you). You can interpret the word moment as everything from this second to this general time and place and activity that I (you) am (are) engaged in, all of them in their proper time and place. In other words, moment exists from micro to macro, simultaneously, which is way too many "why's" to figure out. As a result I have found that life goes much smoother when I just drop all that stuff.

And now I am on to my next purpose. Or is it just an extension of the same? Both, perhaps?
Never mind!

10-25-2008, 09:06 AM

prg5001

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Hi,

I've got an answer. Nothing to do with zen, nothing to do with how we feel about stuff and no idea if it's right or wrong but I've been waiting to try it out:

According to the mathematician Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem - "no set of things can be complete unless it contains itself". If we consider the universe as a set of things and that it is complete then it also must contain itself. How can it do this? I suggest that the universe can contain itself by using consciousness. Hence, our purpose in life is just to be conscious and nothing more.

I quite like this idea as it makes us all equal and the more conscious we are the better.

Anyway, just a thought. I'd be interested in any feedback.

cheers,

Paul

10-25-2008, 02:18 PM

Borsuk

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Wow! I feel like I'm stepping out of some kind of existential closet here :D Yes, I admit it! It does matter to me whether all this is intended somehow or not, and I do think it makes a difference.

But maybe you are right, Rowan, it might be far more ilumiating to find out why 'the why' is so important to me. The meaning of the search for meaning. If these kind of questions don't ring your bell then, yeah, I suppose it seems a bit ridiculous to spend your time pondering over them. But that is the reality of my being. So do these questions arise within me as the product of a long line of chance, or is there something more to it than that?

I have never subscribed to the 'it's beyond us' idea because from my persepctive human beings grasping reality is just God understanding God, Being understanding Being... It's not like an ant trying to understand a super-computer because it's just Being re-gaining awareness of its Being... The One waking up. The Perennial Philosophy, as Aldous Huxely called it, (refering to Religious Mysticism) has existed in all cutures, all times, and has basically delivered the same message. For me, Zen pratice seemed to be the finest way to re-gain direct awareness of The Source.

This is to say that one appears in a variety of forms, oneness manifests as diversity, "Look there's Being manifesting as a table, a flower, a computer, all the things Dogen said mind is no other than, you and me!" So why would it be beyond Being to wake up to its Being?

But, I have to admit, these here are a set of beliefs... Well, sometimes it's quite intuitive and they seem to be revealed by everyday life... But, put simply, Zen practice has been about turning belief into living truth. As such, I've been surprised by the general, "Maybe it is all random and unintended / we don't know and Zen practice doesn't let you know" response.

One thing I do know is that ever since I've been sitting, more and more often, I've had the sensation of a subtle peace emanating from...somehwere... and sometimes it happens when the circumstances shouldn't (by conventional wisdom) yield inner peace at all. It's kind of like an inner grin :) And if this is all a big random, unintended don't know what, I wonder where that inexplicable peace is coming from?

Gassho,
David

10-25-2008, 04:23 PM

Jundo

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Hi David,

We'll talk about some of what you wrote, and some other 'Big' Questions, next week sometime.

Hi Paul

Quote:

Originally Posted by prg5001

Hi,

I've got an answer. Nothing to do with zen, nothing to do with how we feel about stuff and no idea if it's right or wrong but I've been waiting to try it out:

According to the mathematician Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem ...

Hmmm, could be ... Why not? You'd have to ask Gödel and God, I suppose. :D

Gassho, Jundo

10-25-2008, 05:08 PM

Borsuk

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jundo

Hi David,

We'll talk about some of what you wrote, and some other 'Big' Questions, next week sometime.

Thank you Jundo. Really very much appreciated. The feedback has been amazing :D

Paul, I just don't know mate. Sorry! Think asking God is a good idea!

Gassho,
David

10-26-2008, 04:16 AM

prg5001

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - II

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jundo

Hi Paul

Quote:

Originally Posted by prg5001

Hi,

I've got an answer. Nothing to do with zen, nothing to do with how we feel about stuff and no idea if it's right or wrong but I've been waiting to try it out:

According to the mathematician Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem ...

Hmmm, could be ... Why not? You'd have to ask Gödel and God, I suppose. :D

Gassho, Jundo

Thanks. Unfortunately, Godel died 30 years ago but I think you are right, I need to run my idea past a theological mathematician or a mathematical theologian.

cheers,

Paul

02-01-2014, 02:12 AM

cgcumber

I seem to be making a habit of replying to old, old threads, for which I apologize, albeit without a sense of sorrow -- there's just to much of interest to read, and I'm doing some catching up.

Whenever I hear the word "purpose," I think of a story Alan Watts relates that can be heard on the "Out of Your Mind" lecture series, or be read in his autobiography, about his Zen teacher and father-in-law, Sokei-an:

Quote:

One evening he was giving a formal lecture on the Sutra of Perfect Awakening, dressed in robes of brown and gold brocade and seated in his chair of estate at a small table-altar with candles and incense. He would pause from time to time, and drop powdered sandalwood or aloeswood on the hot brick of charcoal in the koro, or incense brazier. He came to a passage where the sutra spoke of the importance of living without purpose, and, true to his accent, commented: “In Buddhism pahposeressness is fundamentar’. No pahpose anywhere in rife itser’f. When you drop fart you do not say, ‘At nine o’crock I drop fart.’ It just happen.” The audience, accustomed to Christian decorum on such occasions, stuffed their handkerchiefs in their mouths.

Watts, Alan (2011-02-09). In My Own Way: An Autobiography (pp. 135-136). New World Library. Kindle Edition.

May we all drop many farts.

Gassho!

Cliff

02-01-2014, 05:11 AM

Jundo

:)

If I may kinda paraphrase something I said recently on a thread about German Philosophers & Existentialism ...

For me, life is something like being born on a mysterious sailboat sailing on the sea. Through this Practice, one finds that the point is in the sailing, not the destination ... that there are good directions and bad (those that head into storms and onto rocks, those that go with the wind) ... and that water, sun and wind, wheel and mast, storms and clear skies, sails and this sailor are each separate, yet each one. Very Existential! Much purpose and aim right in the sailing. (And there are even times to sit on the deck with a good book of German Philosophy ... or just to fart!)

Gassho, J

02-02-2014, 02:13 PM

cgcumber

You can never go wrong with a sailing analogy! (Or farting.) Gassho!

05-07-2014, 02:55 PM

Joryu

Hmmmm. As I was reading this I stopped a moment to let it all sink in. I noticed my cat sleeping - being nothing but pure cat. Then I realized I could be pure human if I were to let go and immerse into the flow.....just as the cat does. She revels in her pure cat-ness - I should revel in my pure human-ness. Asking no questions, accepting the day, loving the moments, acting when necessary and not acting when not. Kitty seems to have a better understanding of Zen then I do :D

Yes, I way simplified it.....but that's how it 'struck' me.
gassho2

05-07-2014, 03:42 PM

Jundo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nandi

Hmmmm. As I was reading this I stopped a moment to let it all sink in. I noticed my cat sleeping - being nothing but pure cat. Then I realized I could be pure human if I were to let go and immerse into the flow.....just as the cat does. She revels in her pure cat-ness - I should revel in my pure human-ness. Asking no questions, accepting the day, loving the moments, acting when necessary and not acting when not. Kitty seems to have a better understanding of Zen then I do :D

Yes, I way simplified it.....but that's how it 'struck' me.
gassho2

Yes, our cat ... Mao Mao with the crooked tail, who came to us after Tin Tin was hit by a car during the winter ... teacher me each day.

Gassho, J

04-21-2015, 05:40 PM

raindrop

Thank you for this teaching, Sangha. Here's my $00.02 on Life, the Universe, and Everything:

I believe the nature of this universe is that every thing is contained in every other thing. The pattern repeats on a scale large and small. Like fractals, like Indra’s net, not only are things connected, but everything illuminates everything else, all forms and formlessness are shining into and out of and as each other, ultimately one.

I seem to be here as a biological creature. Thus, it's no coincidence that every little scrap and inkling of truth I have found so far was found by looking to nature. Realizing and manifesting my own nature, I don’t have to chase after truth so much... it manifests as "me", and as the endless flowing. Nothing is hidden.

Anyway, that’s more or less how I see it these days.

Life’s purpose? I dunno. I used to ask “why” a lot. Lately I’m more interested in “how”. Maybe the why is contained in the how. Maybe not. Bottom line is, we’re here, lets make the best of it, eh? My rule: don’t be a jerk, and try to leave every place a little better than you found it.