In post 61, implosion wrote:This feels reeeeeeally like a scummy claim to me. Pings me really very hard. Feels like a mafia ascetic trying to act like a town ascetic. It also doesn't necessarily reduce the negative effect of ascetic to claim it, as, if town, eagerSnake is now a free nightkill if scum want to kill him.

Why aren't you voting me then? If you're going to try and push popular opinion in this light then vote me you scared child

Your over-aggressive-ness is a sign of scum IMO. If "I'm not afraid to die" is your reaction to getting voted then you're not playing to your win con.

I'm more of an MLA guy.

No, scum is more concerned with staying alive then finding scum.And I hate writing papers in general.

Fair (to both points).

@eagerSnake - Dug through your finished games. Only found three completed - you were town in all three.

1) Did I miss a finished game where you were scum?

2) You explained similarly aggressive in one of your townie games. You explained that if you're a townie you don't mind dying (especially for a power role)- because your reads flip and everyone gets to re-read you as a confirmed townie. Dying for the cause. Because of this I'll retract my suspicion at your aggression - for now - since it's consistent with how you've played in the past.

3) Before anyone tells me not to base too much off of meta... I know. It's not like I have much to go off of on page four.

If I was wanting town approval before I did something then why did I not wait for a positive response before posting?

Some people are roundabout in the things they do. However, it doesn't mean that they don't get anything done.

That was more me signifying that I was about to post my questions then anything. If I had gotten a response, positive or negative, I would not have pulled back from my original opening.

Grendel wrote:If its cool I'd like you all to leave me to analyze them,

If this is non-sarcastic then I'm holding you to this - I'd like to hear what actual alignment-indicative or otherwise useful content you're getting out of these questions.

Also of all games to feel like you need to force an RQS or RVS, this is a very silly one. We have a claim. On page one. An unusual one at that. We have a goldmine of material to analyze already - why do you feel the need to instigate an RQS? RQS and RVS as they're usually conceived are both kind of outdated anyway. There's usually enough substance in the first few posts to get reads that are legitimate enough to argue about, even if they're very unstable.

Yes, I like to review the question results to see if I can divine some alignments. Why not contribute to the game with your answers?

I don't know if Eager claiming ascetic at day start is more likely to come from town, or scum. So I'm doing something I'm more familiar with.

I'm interested why you find my entrance poitenally scummy when you feel Zoronos is legitimately scummy. If you thought that Zorones was implying I'm scum then why was your initial reaction to my post, "well that's kinda scummy"? Sorry, but its weird that you'd have me as a tertiary scum read while your top scum is, in your opinion, also scum reading me. If you think he is scum, why do you think I am scum too?

I am not seeing much town intent with these pushes of yours.

Zoronos wrote:

In post 64, implosion wrote:Zoronos, you're implying a scumread on Grendel; why not follow it up with a vote?

Because I don't vote the instant I have an inkling of suspicion. Or moreover, because the simple act of asking the questions isn't necessarily scum play. Using the questions as a sole form of contribution on the other hand is (which doesn't necessarily mean Grendel, a townie putting down that kind of list gives the scum room to dwell on it to contribute, so it isn't even that Grendel is scum for doing it, it's just pro-scum to exist). So yes, I'd rather take the hard line early and nip camouflaging play in the bud.

Or maybe these boards don't have a conception of 'fake content' or maybe I'm using the wrong jargon to explain the idea. If I'm unclear, well.

Okay, gun to your head: Am I mislead town, or misleading mafia?

I disagree what you are saying about RQS, but I'll have to wait until I've gotten a decent sample size before I post full reasoning.

In the meantime it'd be super nice if you'd humor me and play along.

I'm suspicious of this post. It's too early for you to be this defensive.

In post 132, Gamma Emerald wrote:VOTE: ImplosionSerious vote. He doesn't talk about LUV at all but then votes him. Trying to flashwagon are we?

I'm trying to figure out if I agree with you on this one or not.

Implosion's logic and stances seem, to me, to be very confused. It seems like he's holding contradictory opinions and trying to justify them after the fact because he was playing off gut and didn't think through whether they made sense together (which leans towny).

My gut doesn't like his post, but I think that's because a lot of it is talking about himself. I want to call him scummy for that, but he's responding to a direct question about his behavior, so talking about himself makes sense. He's answering a direct question after all.

So basically my head and my gut disagree on that slot.

I'm inclined to agree.

In 61 Implosion makes some really thin analysis based on well... not much.

Also, in 61 he gives a reason for snake being scummy. In 62 snake calls him out on it (why don't you vote me then?) and in 64 he goes on to ask Zoronos why he didn't follow up his scumread with a vote. He ends 64 by voting Zoronos.

Here's what the problem I have with that exchange - he doesn't vote anyone in 61 himself (which contradicts his line of questioning to Zoronos in 64). After snake calls him out in 62, he claims to have a "number of reasons" to not vote for snake (wut?) and then goes on to vote Zoronos.

The play feels reactionary - he felt afraid of snake being so direct with him so instead of going toe to toe with Snake, he deflects and votes for Zoro.

In post 231, nn30 wrote:Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted (compared to some pretty heavy activity on his part early on).

He could just be lurking for legit reasons.

Or he could have started lurking in response to getting some heat and just let the thread move past thinking about him.

In post 247, implosion wrote:Took longer than I thought to get to this game today so forgive what is about to be a multipost because I think they're more readable than walls. Alas.

These posts occur next to one another (mine was 243, his was 247). I posted in 243 about Implosion potentially using lurking as a scum tactic. He then starts his series of posts, with an explanation for not being around but totally ignores the fact that I mentioned this as potentially scummy.

It's like he wants to discredit my reaction to him lurking without directly engaging/responding to me.

He then makes a series of posts responding to older stuff and totally ignores that I've voted for him in 229.

@town - can you follow my line of reasoning? I ask because I want to see if Implosion is the only one not understanding me.

What I get from what you're saying is he's only posting when it's convenient for him to post yes?

Yep.

Also that from 247 - 261 he addresses a significant number of issues, but ignores the ones I've raised with him. The most he responds to me is by giving an explanation for why he hasn't posted in a while.

Apologizing for not posting for a while would have been a fine explanation - had he directed it at me. Instead, to me, it feels like he tried to slip an explanation under the radar without having to directly confront me on anything. THAT felt more scummy than the post pattern itself.

@town - can you follow my line of reasoning? I ask because I want to see if Implosion is the only one not understanding me.

What I get from what you're saying is he's only posting when it's convenient for him to post yes?

Yep.

Also that from 247 - 261 he addresses a significant number of issues, but ignores the ones I've raised with him. The most he responds to me is by giving an explanation for why he hasn't posted in a while.

Apologizing for not posting for a while would have been a fine explanation - had he directed it at me. Instead, to me, it feels like he tried to slip an explanation under the radar without having to directly confront me on anything. THAT felt more scummy than the post pattern itself.

I think you're looking into that a bit to much and overthinking I don't think that's what he was going for that seems way to smart

I do think you're town though for all this

Super busy day at work so I'm behind, but I agree with this sentiment.NN30 sees himself as the focus of questioning / investigation and assumes that his target is considering his posts foremost when responding (assumes active neglect vs just not noticing / not caring). It reflects a stance wherein he believes everyone should be responding first and foremost to him; a responsibility seeking rather than a responsibility avoiding posture. He thinks his questions are super important and should always be answered, and that any avoidance of those questions is scum. Scum are happy to appear contributory, but this goes past simple appearance into active investigation attempt.

It's a 'Not considering equally plausible alternatives' fallacy, but this expression of the fallacy is much more likely to come from town than from scum, imo.

tl;dr active followup / active attempts to solve ergo leans towny.

I am reasonably pleased with what LUV posted over night and appreciate that he's taking a more active role in the game.I need to find time to ponder Grendel more.I still want a response from Penguin to my earlier question. Especially now that LUV made a big contribution post.

Translation - Nn30 is cute, he's trying, ++town points.

I'm still wary of implosion. Since I'm not getting any traction with him at the moment, I'll drop it and see if I have anything to contribute to the other wagons occurring right now.

In post 397, Shadow_step wrote:Like nn30 is ob town after that. Unless he is a very good scum player. I'll have to check his games to make sure.

@nn I was already voting PP and I had given reasons to vote him.

@Shadow_Step - You're not getting out of this by town reading me. So many people have done that already that it's about the safest thing in the world to do.

I would like responses to 366 & 395.

I've already answered that?I was already voting PP because I didn't like his stance on the eager claim. He said he believed it and said he read him as null. Which was very safe. I'll get into the details of this later.

I got a town read off of you after that hammer because I think as scum you would attack me for hammering someone prematurely amongst other things .

In post 302, Grendel wrote:Oh and, I'm about to get really busy on something, and won't be on tonight.

See you all tomorrow... evening?

Putting the answers to the random questions completely aside, can you point to why Penguin is scum, based on things he's posted in game?

His wagon on Lil Uzi Vert is easy. Lil is non contributing and anti town, but his play is a largely null tell for me because he did this exact same thing as town last time I played with him. Heck I, as scum, pushed to get Vert lynched with the same reason that Penguin is here. That Vert is “fence sitty and his lack of stances make him scum lordz”. Lil is a great wagon for scum!Penguin because he can push this wagon through with little consequence once Vert were to flip town.

His move to Gamma isn’t much better because Gamma is known for taking things at face value. Like Gamma is hard town reading, and defended me because I opened with RQS. This is because I played a game as scum where I didn’t open with RQS. When the reason I didn’t open had more to do with me subbing into a game with 20+ pages then my alignment. It’s the same thing with Vert, Gamma has an experience with town!Vert being fence sitty and non-contributory, so he thinks Vert is town here. Penguin’s biggest reason for voting Gamma is because Gamma tr Vert, everything else seems like that Penguin seems to find scum about Gamma looks like pretty normal Gamma play too honestly.

Basically Penguin has only pushed for wagons on easy players.

I also don’t care for announcing I’m town without explaining why. All the more awkward considering that he seemed to think i was scum, (or bad town), just one page earlier. I only posted a couple thought in between those points. I don't see how Penguin would have come to that conclusion as quickly as he did based solely on that. All I really did was defend my RQS, and tell Penguin that calling me "scum, or bad town" is an ugly knee jerk reaction. I could totally see Penguin as scum backing off because he decided I wasn't an easy lynch.

First off - I've been town reading you for a while.

Second - I don't think it's appropriate to townread gamma because he defended your RQS opening. Making that argument is strategy oriented and scum or town could make it. It's more null than anything.

FYI - I meta dived gamma. In none of the town games I found did he make a point of saying "I'm town reading xxx." He's done that a number of times this game. He's referenced playing mafia scum on another forum - which leads me to believe his play style is relatively consistent.

Do an ISO dive on him - you'll find him pointing out town reads on a number of people. Then check his past games. I think you'll agree with me.

In post 470, MariaR wrote:Shadow being paranoid about me being scum with faking a reaction screams town to me I know he's good enough to fake it but I think looking at his other posts he can be town aswell

I don't agree with this logic. He has presented two options - you could be genuinely pissed about a hammer or you could be faking it. He buttered you up by saying you're a good enough player to fake it.

In post 477, Gamma Emerald wrote:Reads atm, not ordered by strentgh, just who I chose.S_S: null scum

In post 485, Gamma Emerald wrote:As for ShadowStep, I want him to not be as tunnely.

In post 503, Gamma Emerald wrote:@PP: Because SS seems to be faking content.

In post 512, Gamma Emerald wrote:Also, my SS read has shifted to the town side.VOTE: Dierfire

@Gamma - I 100% call BS.

Shadow Step said precisely nothing between 477 and 512 when you switch your read on him. At best this is town!Gamma being inconsistent / changing his mind on a read without explaining why. At worst it's scum!Gamma not being careful with what he says and being caught out.

@Town - I previously stated that I meta dived Gamma. In none of his town games (I read through 3) did he make a point to state town reads as they happen. He scum hunted and stated scum reads - never town reads.

In this game he's explicitly stated things that Luv & Snake were doing were town tells. He's explicitly said "I think you're town" to Shadow_Step, LUV, and Implosion.

To add on - the reason his stating so many town tells feels scummy is that scum already know who town is - they have perfect information - what better way to gain cred with the town than "reading" their play and letting them know that he thinks they're town?

In post 543, nn30 wrote:To add on - the reason his stating so many town tells feels scummy is that scum already know who town is - they have perfect information - what better way to gain cred with the town than "reading" their play and letting them know that he thinks they're town?

This case is bs

Instead of reacting to the whole case you chose to react to a single part of it which, on it's own, would indeed be a BS case.

In post 543, nn30 wrote:To add on - the reason his stating so many town tells feels scummy is that scum already know who town is - they have perfect information - what better way to gain cred with the town than "reading" their play and letting them know that he thinks they're town?

This case is bs

Instead of reacting to the whole case you chose to react to a single part of it which, on it's own, would indeed be a BS case.

@Dierfire - Your 595 seems fairly convincing to me. I'm also inclined to give more credit to your reads because you came in late - people who come in late get a better picture of what's happened before them.

I agree that Gamma's quick switch on PP in 481 felt hinky. I also agree

Also, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

In post 570, Gamma Emerald wrote:As for Dierfire, I think he is the most likely scum on PP's wagon. His grouping of me and PP feels like throwing shade on us. This makes me think PP is town. If Dier flips town I'll reconsider my PP read.

The fact that another player (Dierfire) is grouping the two of you together should have no bearing on your read of PP. Doing so is engaging in a logical fallacy.

In post 579, Zoronos wrote:The dichotomy between Boring and Maria here is interesting; Maria is hard to sort because she is content light (apparently purposefully), and Boring is hard to sort because some of her content makes me go "Yup, that's scummy def" and some is "Well, that is pretty darn reasonable".

Throw Grendel in there and lol

You suspensions of me actually strength my town read on you. The Scum!Eager I played with was totally okay with being a strong tr of mine. Your paranoia here makes me all the more sure you are town.

In post 333, implosion wrote:And I think the most damning thing about Gamma (which I've mentioned but no one seems to have noticed) is still this flat-outcontradiction. It's indicative that he doesn't actually have a consistent internal state of reads in his head; if he actually didn't hold the opinion that LUV was probably town, he straight-up would never have explicitly called LUV town. The fact that he called LUV town and then said that he doesn't actually believe LUV is town (just that a particular argument was bad) is very strong evidence that he's just pretending to have reads on people.

@Gamma - Look, I'm new to this site. I don't know how people do things around here but I have a few things I'd like to share.

1) We're on a website specifically for people to play mafia on. I presume most of us have played these games in person, loved them, and brought them online because there aren't enough opportunities to play them in person. We're tryhards.

2) I've been internally putting people into my town bucket & scum bucket since the game started. The only reason I would forget where I put someone is because my read was weak.

3) If your read on LUV was weak enough that you'd flat out forget it in the space of 24 hours you shouldn't be stating it so strongly to begin with.

In post 649, Shadow_step wrote:Implosion is the only one who thought Eager was scummy with his claim which is very important and must be noted. That caused my earlier town read on him.But it could be just that he is his buddy and inside knowledge and all that.

You're leaving your options way too open here. You've been holding onto this "claim" for a while now. Your read list has Implosion smack dab in the middle. If he was in your null bucket, why bring him up? I write that you had a town read on him in this note, but also that he could be buddying?

In post 122, Shadow_step wrote:Hello eager, do you have any early reads?

The first time you do something worthwhile in the game - you question Eager. Consistent with a legit CC.

But then you do nothing with that information. If I knew, from page one or whenever Eager was scum, I'd use him as town-dar. If Eager is scum, I'd assume that any early game wagon he was on was on a townie. Right now, PP is on your scum list (just above Eager).

You even tried to scum hunt penguin.

This means that in addition to the low chance that:

1) Snake chose an obscure modifier 2) The mod also gave you an obscure modifier

You also believe

3) Eager intentionally bussed his partner (penguin), participated in a wagon that could have lolhammered him, pretended to lolhammer him, and then kept his vote there the rest of the game

You're living in a fantasy land.

VOTE: Shadow_Step

Here's some circumstantial evidence that I feel is weaker than what I just presented, but could be relevant.

In post 124, Shadow_step wrote:1. Mafia, cause I love the wifom. But I probably play better as town.

Your RQS answer (what's your favorite alignment) could be seen as you telling us you're the kind of player who would CC as scum. You're fine putting the game on a coin flip.

In post 7, Shadow_step wrote:Scum have day chat hence all the fast confirmations huh.

The only type of game where scum would gamble on a CC day one is one where they have day chat. The reaction would have to be coordinated. Maybe you had an idea and your scum buddies decided to run with it. You acknowledge that scum chat exists right here.

In post 692, Shadow_step wrote:The fake hammer was purely for town cred by Eager. He knew I already was on the PP wagon so my vote didn't count. I was individually scum reading PP for reasons stated. I also wanted to see at what stage if any does Eager jump on the PP wagon.

I'm not buying it.

Why the hell would Eager spend the whole day pretending to scum hunting his buddy? How does that feel like scum play to you?

In post 693, Shadow_step wrote:I've been hinting at it all game. Nn is an idiotic townie who can only see what's at the surface

This is standard play when you have a guilty on someone. You try to get reads out of them so that you can easily find out who is most likely their buddy.On the phone right now so maria can you link to 649?I had a guilty on maria on night 1. Day 2 I didn't start the day screaming Maria scum maria scum. I pushed her for reads.

That's just it.

You pushed Eager for one read, which he gave you basically nothing on, and then you gave up.

In post 693, Shadow_step wrote:I've been hinting at it all game. Nn is an idiotic townie who can only see what's at the surface

This is standard play when you have a guilty on someone. You try to get reads out of them so that you can easily find out who is most likely their buddy.On the phone right now so maria can you link to 649?I had a guilty on maria on night 1. Day 2 I didn't start the day screaming Maria scum maria scum. I pushed her for reads.

I'm idiot town who has been tunneling the person who is one slot above snake on your scum list. Uh huh.

In post 693, Shadow_step wrote:I've been hinting at it all game. Nn is an idiotic townie who can only see what's at the surface

This is standard play when you have a guilty on someone. You try to get reads out of them so that you can easily find out who is most likely their buddy.On the phone right now so maria can you link to 649?I had a guilty on maria on night 1. Day 2 I didn't start the day screaming Maria scum maria scum. I pushed her for reads.

I'm idiot town who has been tunneling the person who is one slot above snake on your scum list. Uh huh.

Did you even read my read list. I have you as top town

So does everyone else in this game. I'm the most obv town player here.

That's the big read you're sure of now? After waiting and watching Eager Snake to determine his partner?

@Shadow_Step - Based on the reactions I'm getting from everyone, I'm clearly leaning more VI than insightful than I'd like. I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong about you. Before I do that I need you to clear some things up for me.

1) Please, explain your reads in the context of people's interactions with Eager. I've been harping PP but I also disagree with a lot of this list in that context as well. I want your scum explanations as well as your town explanations. If this play of yours is legit, you've done very little with it so far (beyond pushing Eager).

2) Why did you choose to claim now?

3) How do the interactions between Snake / Boring indicate that Boring is town?

In post 869, Shadow_step wrote:He hasn't taken much stance over any wagon and thrown cheap town reads. I've tried to push him for reads without giving much away but he hasn't had those many interactions with people so as to get a definite read on them except boring.

In post 869, Shadow_step wrote:He hasn't taken much stance over any wagon and thrown cheap town reads. I've tried to push him for reads without giving much away but he hasn't had those many interactions with people so as to get a definite read on them except boring.

I'm referring to your reads on other people, not Eager himself.

To expand on this, if the play is to gain information on other people, which you claim it is, if you haven't gotten enough interactions from Eager to make any usable reads why would you claim in the first place?

In post 894, Zoronos wrote:Based on his ISO, I feel that Shadow's actions comport with someone that was planning a counterclaim. Which means my prior scumreads were super wrong, but super wrong it is.

He didn't actually press snake all that hard. He's stated in 869 that all he got out of it was that Boring is town.

Keep in mind the context of a town!Shadow_Step this game. Leading up to when Shadow CC'd, Eager is 100% scum in his mind. If the only information he manged to gather before the CC is that Boring is town, he didn't get enough information to make a CC worthwhile.

This feels all the more scummy since Shadow said in 693 the "This is standard play when you have a guilty on someone. You try to get reads out of them so that you can easily find out who is most likely their buddy."

He didn't do that at all.

His reasoning for this is that "I didn't want Eager to know I was onto him." Bah. I call BS on that one. He's giving scum way too much credit.

In post 894, Zoronos wrote:Based on his ISO, I feel that Shadow's actions comport with someone that was planning a counterclaim. Which means my prior scumreads were super wrong, but super wrong it is.

He didn't actually press snake all that hard. He's stated in 869 that all he got out of it was that Boring is town.

Keep in mind the context of a town!Shadow_Step this game. Leading up to when Shadow CC'd, Eager is 100% scum in his mind. If the only information he manged to gather before the CC is that Boring is town, he didn't get enough information to make a CC worthwhile.

This feels all the more scummy since Shadow said in 693 the "This is standard play when you have a guilty on someone. You try to get reads out of them so that you can easily find out who is most likely their buddy."

He didn't do that at all.

His reasoning for this is that "I didn't want Eager to know I was onto him." Bah. I call BS on that one. He's giving scum way too much credit.

401, 413, 415, 418. I'm stopping at the point of the CC, for obvious reasons.He tried to build a train on Penguin based on Penguin ignoring (343) a question about Eager, asked in 263.In [post]169[/[post] he explicitly foreshadows a delayed counterclaim.

Town!SS didn't feel a need to bury Eager manually because he believed he had a CC for that.

This was either planned out from the very beginning of the game, or SS is legit.

Why would he pull the trigger now? After not having gained much information?

In post 912, Prism wrote:I've got a few things I want to respond to later but for now why are people assuming nn30 is town again?

I'm not afraid to go after someone when I see the need to. I draw attention to myself doing so (which scum don't want).

I won't force a re-read on you but the vast majority of people have town read me at one point or another (for differing reasons).

I read your post which detailed why you thought I was scum. You make some good points. For example, my saying saying I'm the most ob! town person here is classic scum logic. In a vacuum I'd agree with you. However, I implore you to consider it within the context of the current game - where tons of people had already stated a strong town read on me - and take a second look at me.

nn you are seriously thick.This is day 1. I tried several times for reads from eager. He either kept giving in related responses or avoiding it all together and he was getting away with all of it cause lol day 1. What the hell did you expect me to do ask his read on every player till he does, keep shouting at him? You are being extremely unreasonable.

You had, in your mind, a conf! scum read on him. You could have waited any amount of time you wished. Given more time, you almost certainly would have gotten relevant information out of him. Instead you blew your load early and, as a result, have exactly one viable town read as a result of Eager's actions.

I had my vote on boring all day and nobody even nibbled at it, usually I would think scum would at least take a nibble at it. This makes it more likely boring is scum. Also boring seems happy with this conflict and jumped on me without any question, also used the gambler's fallacy to her own defense.

I'm liking this logic a lot.

If true, it links Boring to Shadow_Step as well. Boring seemingly needed 0 convincing to join the Eager Snake wagon. See below.

In post 910, Shadow_step wrote:OMG nn you are biggest dumbfuck ever.You want me claim ascetic on day 6?Or, " I don't have enough info yet, so let's on scum eager live another day and lynch someone else." That's what you expect me to do? Are you that fucking dense?

I absolutely expect you to do that.

Sacrificing a townie so that you can identify more scum is absolutely good play.

In post 910, Shadow_step wrote:OMG nn you are biggest dumbfuck ever.You want me claim ascetic on day 6?Or, " I don't have enough info yet, so let's on scum eager live another day and lynch someone else." That's what you expect me to do? Are you that fucking dense?

I absolutely expect you to do that.

Sacrificing a townie so that you can identify more scum is absolutely good play.

No its not

Lynching ob scum is always better than taking a shot in the dark

I'm not saying take a shot in the dark over Eager.

I'm saying you should have let Eager live for a while so that you have some shots in the dark ready for after we kill Eager.

In post 910, Shadow_step wrote:OMG nn you are biggest dumbfuck ever.You want me claim ascetic on day 6?Or, " I don't have enough info yet, so let's on scum eager live another day and lynch someone else." That's what you expect me to do? Are you that fucking dense?

I absolutely expect you to do that.

Sacrificing a townie so that you can identify more scum is absolutely good play.

No its not

Lynching ob scum is always better than taking a shot in the dark

I'm not saying take a shot in the dark over Eager.

I'm saying you should have let Eager live for a while so that you have some shots in the dark ready for after we kill Eager.

We only have seven days out of which some people keep prod dodging for couple of days. I wanted enough time.

We had plenty of day phases left. We can lose a townie day one as long as it's for the cause.

In post 693, Shadow_step wrote:This is standard play when you have a guilty on someone. You try to get reads out of them so that you can easily find out who is most likely their buddy.

In post 967, Shadow_step wrote:No way.Lynching scum is always better and interactions with eager doesn't lock anyone as scum. Its a good way to find out but its open to interpretation. There is no way I'm not lynching ob scum when I have a usless fucking role as CC. If I was cop or something I'd wait yeah, not with this garbage ascetic.

1) You're disagreeing with yourself now. If looking for scum buddies is the goal when you have a guilty on someone, you totally gave up on doing this.

2) I'm not saying that, by your worldview, we shouldn't lynch Eager first. What I'm saying is that you should have waited until you knew what to do after we lynch Eager before pulling the trigger on your CC. Presumably if you're town, and Eager is scum, and your CC caused Eager to get lynched, and Eager flipped red, you would have a lot of pull with town on the next lynch.

As it stands now if we do kill Eager and he flips read you have 0 idea who to lynch next (based on your observations of Eager).

In post 1017, Shadow_step wrote:Have you seen why GE is voting boring? Because she perceived my play as aggressive, he doesn't see it as aggressive. So boring must be scum, how does that even make sense?

The same thing I've been saying the past 5+ pages, nn30 and implosion are my top two scumreads and despite Eager playing his role strongly he's doing exactly what I'd expect if he was cc'd scum. If it flips town I wouldn't be shocked at either of you/Gamma turning out to be scum.

I have exactly 0 trust in your ability to scumread. Between 614 and 628 you imply (Penguin) or directly state (7 other names) feel scummy. That's 8/13 town members. Your list in 1013 has 3 people (myself included) who I feel are towny.

I didn't respond to your line of questioning towards me originally because without an "@nn30" somewhere in the post I'm likely to skim it and assume it was addressed to someone else.

The fact that I failed to reply to you is not enough of a reason to scum read me.

As far as my read of implosion, I still don't town read him but I found his responses to my lines of questioning satisfying (for the time being). Plus he dropped off the face of the map, nobody else seemed interested in talking about him, so I moved on.

In post 1041, nn30 wrote:I have exactly 0 trust in your ability to scumread. Between 614 and 628 you imply (Penguin) or directly state (7 other names) feel scummy. That's 8/13 town members. Your list in 1013 has 3 people (myself included) who I feel are towny.

I didn't respond to your line of questioning towards me originally because without an "@nn30" somewhere in the post I'm likely to skim it and assume it was addressed to someone else.

The fact that I failed to reply to you is not enough of a reason to scum read me.

As far as my read of implosion, I still don't town read him but I found his responses to my lines of questioning satisfying (for the time being). Plus he dropped off the face of the map, nobody else seemed interested in talking about him, so I moved on.

More of nn30 not actually caring about what I'm saying and just giving a response for the sake of it.

P-edit @Eager: Not really, no. Feel free to vote implosion or nn30 if you want. It's also not a logical fallacy, you're significantly less likely to be town because of it.

If I didn't care what you said, I would have just ignored you.

I don't have a read on you at the moment. That means you could be town. If you have me as your top scum read, which runs counter to what most of the town feels, something is off in your reasoning.

Your 797 comes after my 617, so I'm giving you no originality credit acknowleding that you have too many town reads.

I've addressed the rest of your problems with me from that post in previous posts, but here I go again.

I scumread implosion, his responses to my push felt satisfying, nobody was interested in him (until you showed up waaaaay later)so I moved on.

I missed your prod to speak with you. I apologize. In the future please include an @nn30.

My top scum read was never implosion. I have not posted such a list. Stating that my top read was implosion is putting things in my mouth, and I don't like that.

I latched onto Shadow and Gamma because I felt they were scummy. By no means was my approach "lets throw some shit at the wall and see what sticks lul."

If my 690 was about volume (which presumably makes you think I'm scum making up content) why would I admit to that in my own post? I included the "this is more circumstantial and definitely weaker" line because I'm trying to be transparent in my reads. I was not admitting to "volume over quality" as you suggest.

I don't know wtf shadow was thinking. The I've harped on how poor the play was from town!shadow for a few pages, so I'm not going to do that again here. The play was bad from a scum!shadow too but I'm willing to bet he's a gambling / gambit kind of guy. This is why I continue to scum read him.

I said I'm obv town because of the vast number of people who have town read me so far. Self vouches, as you point out, tend to feel scummy. I didn't self vouch on page one with no context - I self vouched well into a game where a significant number of people had town read me. You're looking at this play in a vacuum and not in the context of the game we are currently playing.

In post 476, boring wrote:Shadow_step - Has an aggressive town persona. A hint of grandiosity. I haven't seen this behavior before with scum. eagerSnake - He's got a most-likely-town claim. If he's still alive tomorrow, he'll probably be bumped way down because he's pretty useless

These were Boring's top two town reads at one point. She flipped on her second top town read as soon as her first CC'ed him on a modifier, without further investigation. I find that questionable.I am further surprised that not a single person brought up that she was willing to trash her town reads that quickly. But w/e.

Anyway, I want to hear what Boring has to say once she comes back; my gut wants her to be scum (hello conf-bias) but I can't justify just throwing down the hammer without giving her a chance to say her piece.

In post 1118, Gamma Emerald wrote:...As scum. It's a great way to avoid getting trapped in a CC if it works. What I need to know is if this is something you agree is something scum would do. I'm feeling incredibly confused right now and this feedback will help.

Scum would do it. But so would town that believe it to be true. It's based on personalities involved, imo.

Personally, I just put it out of mind and am trying to evaluate all three lynch candidates individually. Of the three, SS's narrative seems to track most closely with how he acted in the thread (see my previous posts for explanation), so I'm not keen on lynching him over all of it. That leaves Eager and Boring at the moment.

What are your current feels on both of these candidates and why? Which do you feel is a stronger case?

In post 1118, Gamma Emerald wrote:I need further input.I mentioned that Grendel's summary made me rethink some things. What I'm having issues dealing with is determining the motivation behind a certain play. This play is the "both are town" idea that Eager and Maria have suggested. Thing is, I've used this defense before......As scum. It's a great way to avoid getting trapped in a CC if it works. What I need to know is if this is something you agree is something scum would do. I'm feeling incredibly confused right now and this feedback will help.

In post 1132, Zoronos wrote: If I were scum, I would never early claim ascetic in thread. I'd sit on that into end game and never ever mention it. Town can't cop me / roleblock me / track me? Awesome I'm the best scum.

As someone else stated, it makes no sense that a scum!Eager_Snake would claim ascetic day one.

If he's actually ascetic he holds onto that forever. Town can't probe him in the night? Awesome.

I'm unhappy to be admitting this, but Eager's logic that a scum!Shadow would have no reason to CC makes sense.

To my eye, he's been acting like unhappy/frustrated town the whole time. His play is consistent with his completed town games (very bold, doesn't care if he dies for the team). He was much more timid in his completed scum game.

I'm going to take a moment to put together the whole case on Boring... in the mean time I hope Snake isn't hammered.

Boring was doing little / no scum hunting. She joined the Zoronos wagon (3rd there). Aside from questioning his logic once or twice, she loses interest in Zoronos fairly quickly. She joins the Penguin wagon (also 3rd) and aside from her rainbow read list (putting Penguin as her top scum read) she spends the next 15 posts without engaging with Penguin again.

After the CC:

She votes Eager with little to no thought about the CC (literal minutes between SS announcing and her voting Eager). She drops Eager (previously a 2nd to top town read) to her biggest scum read with little to no explanation, thought, consideration... nada. This feels very opportunistic.

Also, this:

In post 1037, boring wrote:@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him.

She is specifically referring to the period of time before the Shadow CC that she had a scumlean on him. This directly contradicts her read list from that period of time (where snake was her second to top town read).

In post 1165, boring wrote:...If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town....

Further contradiction. He's probably confirmed town without a counter claim - yet in 1037 (when there was still no CC) she has a scumlean on him.

Fishy. Fishy fishy.

I had a slight scum read on Boring before the CC. The most quantifiable thing is that her read list felt hinky to me (like she was posting it instead of actually scum hunting). There was also a gut feeling, which is more difficult to quantify.

Snake also pointed out that he parked his vote on Boring the entire day - and nobody nibbled - meaning 0 scum tried to hop onto the wagon and test the waters (implying that Boring herself is scum, causing the lack of interest in her wagon). I like this logic a lot.

In post 1238, nn30 wrote:Snake also pointed out that he parked his vote on Boring the entire day - and nobody nibbled - meaning 0 scum tried to hop onto the wagon and test the waters(implying that Boring herself is scum, causing the lack of interest in her wagon). I like this logic a lot.

Bold is mine. Since we're all fans of the complicated and intricate in this game, why could scum not orchestrate that in their day chat?

I am not a fan of the complicated and intricate. It's possible but not likely.

Scum would have an easier time just coasting day 1 and adding fire to any incorrect wagons.

Coordinating like this makes more sense in later days when the lynches are harder to achieve.

Boring was doing little / no scum hunting. She joined the Zoronos wagon (3rd there). Aside from questioning his logic once or twice, she loses interest in Zoronos fairly quickly. She joins the Penguin wagon (also 3rd) and aside from her rainbow read list (putting Penguin as her top scum read) she spends the next 15 posts without engaging with Penguin again.

After the CC:

She votes Eager with little to no thought about the CC (literal minutes between SS announcing and her voting Eager). She drops Eager (previously a 2nd to top town read) to her biggest scum read with little to no explanation, thought, consideration... nada. This feels very opportunistic.

Also, this:

In post 1037, boring wrote:@town? - eager has been coasting, and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim. A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him.

She is specifically referring to the period of time before the Shadow CC that she had a scumlean on him. This directly contradicts her read list from that period of time (where snake was her second to top town read).

In post 1165, boring wrote:...If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town....

Further contradiction. He's probably confirmed town without a counter claim - yet in 1037 (when there was still no CC) she has a scumlean on him.

Fishy. Fishy fishy.

I had a slight scum read on Boring before the CC. The most quantifiable thing is that her read list felt hinky to me (like she was posting it instead of actually scum hunting). There was also a gut feeling, which is more difficult to quantify.

Snake also pointed out that he parked his vote on Boring the entire day - and nobody nibbled - meaning 0 scum tried to hop onto the wagon and test the waters (implying that Boring herself is scum, causing the lack of interest in her wagon). I like this logic a lot.

Fin.

So, you haven't been paying attention like, at all? Hopefully when this trip is over, I'll have time to go through and show you point-for-point where you've clearly glossed, ignored, and misrepped. I realize this isn't the first time you've gotten totally confused in this game, but geez.

It's like you're pretending to be Zoro, except Zoro actually brought up some valid concerns (unfortunately for me).

Anyway, my request stands. Please wait for me to come back and post if y'all get to the point of intent to hammer on me. Or just lynch eagerSnake. Either one works.

In post 1337, Prism wrote:@Dierfire I promised to review it awhile back but yeah, it's been pretty low priority. I'll get to it when I have time if it's still relevant.

In post 1303, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I still don't buy the case on boring, well I don't buy it enough to believe she's the correct lynch for today.

@LUV: Can you explain in your own words, ie. minimal "I agree with X" even if it's true, what's wrong with the case on boring?

I already touched on it earlier and while I don't town read her I don't find the cases against her very strong. She's basically being scum read for people viewing the tone of her posts as happy about the conflict between Shadow and a Snake yet there is no evidence to show that she is. People also seem to forget that she wasn't fond of Snake's play this game and probably had a slight town read on him so her voting for him shouldn't be that surprising.

Up until the CC Snake was her 2nd highest town read. That's more than a 'slight town read' IMO.

In post 1334, Zoronos wrote:So, for the sake of clarity Dierfire, your scum reads are Eager, Gamma, and Penguin? You are further of the opinion that Gamma and Penguin's set of disagreements around the competing trains was theater / scum distancing and that they could be scum together?Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes, that's correct.I'm not married to the idea that all three are Mafia together, but I have independent reasons to read each as Mafia, associative reasons to read PenguinPower and Gamma Emerald as partners, and no associative reasons to doubt either as partners for eagerSnake (in fact, perhaps some associative reasons to read Gamma Emerald as a likely partner for eagerSnake given the hops on and off the eagerSnake wagon).

So, in short, your theory is that Gamma is Eager's scum partner, and who jumped on the lynch train when he thought it was going to complete for the town cred, then jumped off again when he thought he might be able to save his scum buddy?

Your words say you agree, but your tone says you don't. Which is it?

That was not my initial impression of his tone.

To me, this reads like he's asking for clarification before he reveals whether or not he agrees.

In post 1364, Gamma Emerald wrote:So I never really voted for this reason, but I should address it anyways I feel.Boring has a point about finding someone's play scummy even though they are likely town. There have been point where I've said "dude that's scummy" to people I townread.

This is my second game on Mafiascum. My playstyle/reads/game sense will get better over time. I'm fine with having this pointed out to me.

In post 1334, Zoronos wrote:So, for the sake of clarity Dierfire, your scum reads are Eager, Gamma, and Penguin? You are further of the opinion that Gamma and Penguin's set of disagreements around the competing trains was theater / scum distancing and that they could be scum together?Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes, that's correct.I'm not married to the idea that all three are Mafia together, but I have independent reasons to read each as Mafia, associative reasons to read PenguinPower and Gamma Emerald as partners, and no associative reasons to doubt either as partners for eagerSnake (in fact, perhaps some associative reasons to read Gamma Emerald as a likely partner for eagerSnake given the hops on and off the eagerSnake wagon).

So, in short, your theory is that Gamma is Eager's scum partner, and who jumped on the lynch train when he thought it was going to complete for the town cred, then jumped off again when he thought he might be able to save his scum buddy?

Yes, and I'll add that Gamma Emerald jumped on twice and off twice (comes back from V/LA, sees the claim from Shadow_step, votes in 867; removes vote from eagerSnake in 927 and to Shadow_step in 933 after Lil Uzi Vert adds another vote to that wagon; brings eagerSnake to L-1 in 1176; comes off again in 1258).

Keep in mind - I've been scumreading Gamma for a lot of this game.

Him jumping in and out of wagons is definitely interesting. If the above explanation is true (that he's bussing for town cred or bailing to see if he can save his scum buddy) his behavior is awfully transparent for scum.

The jumping in and out of wagons suggests cautious/unsure townie to me.

In post 1455, eagerSnake wrote:But yeah I think you're scum even more after that last post

VOTE: boring

I only recently learned this myself. I'm going to assume you don't know it (though I plan to read through your old games for no lynch discussions now).

No lynches in games with odd numbers of people give an advantage to scum. Assuming lynches don't hit scum for the rest of the game we'll get to LYLO with one less total lynch attempt than if we had just lynched on day one.

Games with even numbers of people don't have this problem. The impact of a no lynch with an even numbered game does not "steal" a lynch from town.

Zoronos wrote:Now, on Implosion. He's been thin all game; that is, my general impression is that he doesn't do a lot to try and steer the conversation. He comments on this, but doesn't push. I am suspicious of anyone willing to just float along.

I think this is fair, but is typical of me on d1. It's relatively rare for me to get a scumread on d1 that I'm confident enough on to want to try to steer the conversation. Much more common is for me to get a townread that I'm confident enough to try to steer the conversation on, which you can probably see is the case with eager and to some extent shadow.

I have a similar opinion wrt eager's mention of nolynching as a possibility as those who have weighed in, it really just doesn't make any sense at all. It could be a scum ploy but why the hell would he do it as scum, but also why the hell would he say it as town, etc. Not ultimately super meaningful I think.

On the other hand, I hate to beat a dead horse of almost-everything-boring-says-sounds-scummy but I really dislike boring's reaction... again.

boring wrote:So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").

This is such an incredibly tepid response for someone who has been pushing eager so consistently since shadow claimed. Compare penguin's reaction, and Zoronos's reaction, and even nn who remarks that it's worth looking at his old games based on this. boring's reaction just reeks of scum who doesn't know how people are going to react and wants to test the waters before committing to saying something like "oh my god, only scum would possibly suggest a no lynch, can we please lynch him already." Which I would expect from town-boring here (obviously not in those words but etc).

That paragraph from boring does not read like town talking to their top scumread. It does not read like town with a strong investment in lynching the person they are talking to. I could buy it as town talking to someone that they're trying to make up their mind on. But I can't buy it as town talking to their top scumread. It just sounds like detached, rehearsed advice.

I'm 100% confident of eager red flip plus in my reads. I will be conf town after this and scum will kill me obviously.

If I hammer, and you're wrong, can I have your word that you'll hop on the Boring train tomorrow?

Reasons to do this:

If Eager turns out to be town, and you're town (by your own knowledge at least), then Boring's play has to feel super hinky. She dropped Snake from her 2nd to top town read on a whim. She believed your CC with no questions asked. Seems like she took the opportunity to get a D1 ML and ran with it.

In post 1548, Shadow_step wrote:I caused the day 1 mislynch?Only scum should be disappointed after the day 1 lynch. If that had happened today or tomorrow. It would have been horrible for us.Don't you dare tell me that you would have believed Eager's claim in my position.

This is helly defensive. Like, Jesus H. Christ.

Your intuition caused the D1 mislynch. Ergo, you caused it. And now you want people to jump on another of your wagons? Nuh uh. Not happening.

@Shadow - I think you and I need to shake hands, apologize to one another, and try to work together. If you're town we'll never be able to focus on scum if we spend the whole day yelling at each other.

When I originally called Gamma out, I pointed out that he was explicitly making town reads without much to go off of. Since I pointed this out, he hasn't posted a single confident town read. I don't like that his play style changed.

He waffled like a leaf in the wind on the Eager / Boring vote. He failed to post anything of substance on either of them. cu

Since the flip I haven't found a good example of him scum hunting anyone. He's just sassily defended himself. It doesn't feel like he's trying to solve the game.

He's my strongest scum read right now and it's going to take something fairly significant to change my mind.

In post 427, Grendel wrote:@Gamma Outside of how I opened my game why are you town reading me?

I would also like an explanation as why Implosion went from scum to town, and why Shadow step went from town to what ever "need to contribute" means.

Lastly What do you think of Penguin?

Pre-edit

nn30 wrote:@Grendel

I prefaced my post with a town read on you so that you know I'm not coming at you from an antagonistic point of view.

Hmm, okay. I thought you might be worried I'd brush you off or something.

Which I wouldn't have btw.

I never stated I townread you, but this is your normal townplay, so yeah I townread you because your play is towny.

In post 475, Gamma Emerald wrote:As for why I townread Grendel, I guess it's just that this feels a lot like NPBR again.

In post 477, Gamma Emerald wrote:Reads atm, not ordered by strentgh, just who I chose.

Grendel: town

Compared with this:

In post 435, Gamma Emerald wrote:As for Grendel and Zoronos, those are others I need to reconsider. I've actually been fostering a Grendel scumread because of the fact I can't find anything to townread him on that's non-meta. I'm hoping things will be easier to sort with a flip.

In post 1770, Gamma Emerald wrote:Dude, just because I have agreed with you doesn't mean I townread you.

This feels like you need something to talk about, so you're inventing a scum read on Grendel in order to have some "content" to create.

In post 1778, Gamma Emerald wrote:Ah so the main thing is the meta. As I said, I didn't really make any connections with your scum play as you told me you didn't have a reliable scum meta.I said I "sheeped" you because your case was close to mine.

He's still just sassily answering questions. I've found no strong example of him trying to build a case on someone. Saying "I don't town read Grendel" isn't exactly scum hunting.

In post 1798, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Woah, forgot about this game. I read up and this what I have so far.

I'm a little disturbed by Penguin's push on Zoro. It reads as if he's not been reading what Zoro been asking and thinking. Just skimming. Zoro has been sorting like a mad man and his conclusions and observations have been worth the read so far.

I also don't forget how you can forget a read on someone. This is the only thing that has pinged me about Gamma really. I find it hard to believe and the only explanation that seems to make sense is that he's faking his reads. The question then becomes, is this some sort of next level strategy to catch scum or is he scum feeling pressured to put up content?

He forgot reads before as well. I called him out earlier in the game on it.

In post 1934, nn30 wrote:Why - because his "this was my thought process" post seems pretty legit actually. I wasn't expecting to be swayed by it but here we are.

Cool beans.I find the question "Why did you target X" is a really bad one personally; I find town make really silly decisions on NA targeting frequently, and it's an easy way to hang a PR.I get really suspicious really quickly if someone responds to the answer to that question with "That's illogical you must be scum!"

(I find the importance is what the player has done since the information - If Gamma were still treating Implosion as suspicious, that would suggest to me fake claim. I.E. how they use the outputs is more telling then what inputs drove the decision. Inputs are effectively random.)

He hasn't scumread implosion all day. He scum read him yesterday. Still finding myself swayed here.

In post 1984, PenguinPower wrote:Um...wow. Weak. My scum game has typically been the opposite of what I'm doing now, hence my statement. I'm moving on, because you aren't even trying to defend your (false) statement.

You're doing exactly 0 to prove me wrong.

And you're doing 0 to prove your case.

It wasn't a case to begin with. It was a weak scum read which, based on your response to it, got stronger in my eyes.

You're doing what Donald Trump has done all campaign. Instead of letting the news cycle get bored of his most recent gaffe, he goes around saying "I didn't do that, I didn't say that" and results in even more news coverage for his gaffe.

In post 2010, Zoronos wrote:I am having trouble following the thread of this conversation, but I think we're in meta land again kinda.I do appreciate that you're with me on PP -> Scum NN! But I'd prefer that meta not be used as the basis for that. Meta for, meta against, all just meta. Meta, in my experience, is fertile ground for confirmation bias. It's too easy to see what you're already looking for in meta.Anyway. I think the most productive question to ask about PP, the one that leads me to think he's scum, is "Is PP making an earnest effort to solve the game, identify the scum, and advance his case for that? Is he working with his town reads to sort out scum from town?" I feel the answer here is no.

I'm going to be off for a few hours at least, laters.

As I've stated, it was a weak read to begin with. It got stronger because of Penguin's reaction to it.

In post 2012, Zoronos wrote:And I respect that. I just wanted to chime in before darting off for the rest of the evening.That's the main reason I dislike meta. Not that it's always wrong, or that it's always right. It's just so easy to see the thing you're looking for already in it.