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Topic: Sometimes accidents do happen. Why is it so hard to accept? (Read 11455 times)

Why do so many members on this forum and/or other poz people find it so unbelievably hard to believe or accept that some of us got infected despite taking precautions every single time that we can recall?

Now I donít claim to be an innocent virgin. I did sleep around, but AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER, I had protected sex every single time with every single guy (except my ex bf). Donít remember a single slip up or condom break. Not one. In fact, I didnít even have anal sex too much and mostly stuck to oral. Sometime in early 2006, I distinctly remember developing a fever and swollen lymph nodes that lasted a few weeks and they hurt quite a bit. I got tested immediately (donít remember how much time after last sexual exposure). The test was negative. The woman at the clinic said that it was most likely a viral infection (not HIV) and I neednít worry given that I had not had unprotected anal sex.

On the assumption that we both were negative, the only person I did have unprotected sex with was my ex, and he tested negative 3 months after last exposure with me. I have seen the test results so I know for certain that I didnít get my infection from him.

What am I to conclude from all of this ? That I got it from oral sex and had bleeding gums or a gaping cut in my mouth? That I mustíve been drunk out of my mind and probably did slip up somewhere, and that event, for whatever reason has been completely erased from my memory? That I let someone poke around without a condom (like once or twice) when I was drunk and just canít remember.

Yes, I am open to accepting the above possibilities. Maybe I was drunk and slipped up, or maybe I got it from oral- who knows. But that is not my point in making this post.

The point in my making this post is that, there are many of us WHO, IN OUR MIND, DID TAKE PRECAUTIONS EVERY SINGLE TIME (AT LEAST TO OUR RECOLLECTION) AND STILL GOT INFECTED. It really annoys me how so many people are just so dismissive at even the possibility of that happening. I am not making this post to get a lecture on the science behind transmission. I know that oral sex is only a theoretical risk and their have been extremely few documented cases. My point is there are some of us who never made a conscious decision to have unprotected sex and still got infected somehow. For us it was nothing more or less than an unfortunate accident.

My doctor said that he has seen such cases before; that although oral sex is a much much lower risk than anal sex, the risk remains and is not eliminated.

In any case, all I wanted to get across is that some people should open their mind to the possibility that some of us did get infected by accident somewhere (however miniscule the chances were). I certainly would never judge anyone who has got their infection from bare backing but it does piss me off that it is automatically assumed that I also must have got infected because I was equally callous about my sexual health.

At the end, it doesnít really matter because I/we canít change my/our status and have to move on. I also think we are ultimately responsible (EVEN IF WE THOUGHT WE WERE ALWAYS BEING SAFE) for our own actions and whatever has happened cannot be reversed. I think I have now accepted my status and I know I canít turn back time and have no choice but to look forward.

I know we recently had this exact discussion with some saying they don't believe broken condom stories or other transmission stories. I suppose it is what it is. Did this come back up in a thread that I missed?

At the end, it doesn't really matter because I/we can't change my/our status and have to move on. I also think we are ultimately responsible (EVEN IF WE THOUGHT WE WERE ALWAYS BEING SAFE) for our own actions and whatever has happened cannot be reversed. I think I have now accepted my status and I know I can't turn back time and have no choice but to look forward.

I just needed to get this off my chest. [/left]

Your second to last paragraph, "it doesn't really matter" contradicts the rest of your text and the point of your post.

What exactly do you want to happen in this forum? HIV+ people to reach a consensus that "always protected sex" results in seroconversions? The minuscule risk of oral? That would be counter productive to one of the agendas of this forum. Its not going to happen.

Just tell yourself that you fall into the "unknown risk" category, which certainly does exist. Nobody contests that category. You simply can't identify the risk.

You haven't moved on yet because you're putting yourself and everyone else into categories for some reason or another. Despite your last words here.

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ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Your second to last paragraph, "it doesn't really matter" contradicts the rest of your text and the point of your post.

What exactly do you want to happen in this forum? HIV+ people to reach a consensus that "always protected sex" results in seroconversions? The minuscule risk of oral? That would be counter productive to one of the agendas of this forum. Its not going to happen.

Just tell yourself that you fall into the "unknown risk" category, which certainly does exist. Nobody contests that category. You simply can't identify the risk.

You haven't moved on yet because you're putting yourself and everyone else into categories for some reason or another. Despite your last words here.

I said it doesn't really matter cos I can't change the fact that I am positive and have no option but to look forward now and have stopped asking myself on how it happened. I have accepted it has happened and that's that.

In my eyes, everyone who is poz is more or less in the same boat- after the point in time infection ocurred.

And I would want nothing to 'happen' on this forum. Its a lovely place with lovely people just as it is.

The only point in making this post was that some of us truly believe/know that we got infected notwithstanding condoms being used every single time and some people constantly doubting our version of events or telling us that we are making it up, is frankly quite insensitive. Thatís all.

The only point in making this post was that some of us truly believe/know that we got infected notwithstanding condoms being used every single time and some people constantly doubting our version of events or telling us that we are making it up, is frankly quite insensitive. Thatís all.

Well you got a point. I am in the unknown risk category. Online I got slapped into the party line and after some time I understood it made sense (the party line). In daily real iife, nobody was incredulous or insensitive about my bewilderment - how did i get it.

Obviously EVERYONE knows there had to be something risky.

Who is being insensitive to you - friends in life?

The observation is that you say this is "constant" -- so why is this ignorance or judgement still a constant problem for you? How often are you talking about how you got HIV? Is it because people are asking you how you got it?

If you are newly diagnosed, don't be impatient with yourself and think you are over something when you are not yet. It takes time. Its one thing to mouth or type the peaceful mature outlook ("I can't look back, only look forward") and another thing to live it in your being.

With time, once you have informed most people you care to know you are HIV+ that you are, the question how you got it shouldn't arise. Only with new disclosures.

If you feel like explaining you'll have to really OWN your explanation "I can't identify the risk". You pretty much have no control over some peoples judgements about you, or about HIV+, or how you got HIV.

You could also say, "I got it from Sex, duh".

I think if you "own" your truth people are not going to go on pestering you about the "unknown risk" category.

You're on a sinking ship, online, if you want to pursue "oral sex" or some weird "sex accident" because people don't like complicated stories or complicated prevention messages. And in fact the simple prevention message works well enough.

__________

If someone online or offline wants to get his or her panties in a bunch about judging your truth, just walk away from this person. Because 1) you say you aren't interested in the topic anymore, anyway and 2) that person is poison to you.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 06:38:02 AM by mecch »

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ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

It's not important how others view your mode of transmission and whether it's true or not. I suppose the real issue for you is whether this could be a documented case of safe sex transmission, and as long as this is said:

Yes, I am open to accepting the above possibilities. Maybe I was drunk and slipped up, or maybe I got it from oral- who knows. But that is not my point in making this post.

You really can't accurately claim you were infected in this manner.

This site makes every attempt to give accurate advice based on facts, not what you or I believe to be true. Whatever that truth is will remain clouded in mystery I guess, because to be honest you can't remember.

So what to do??? I guess you and I would at least agree we shouldn't be rewriting the textbooks on your case alone, right?

Like I said before, in my mind I was always careful. I don't know how it happened. The possibility about me being drunk etc, is based solely on me going over the scenarios over and over and still not being able to recall a single unsafe encounter. I meant to say, if I can open my mind to the possibility of maybe slipping up somewhere, even though I don't really believe it my self for a second; why can't others accept the possibility that there are people like me who do everything to protect themselves but still get infected. Why is it so hard to accept that there is only 'safer' sex and no such thing as 100 % safe sex? Surely, mine is not an original case.

I dont believe the 'oral sex' thing is as low a risk as they say. I believe its the kind of oral sex you are having. If you are just sucking a cock with no ejaculation, then the risk is pretty low, but if you are swallowing or allowing a guy to finish in you're mouth, then that increases the risk two fold. I don't know how folks can't think that taking a load in you're mouth is safe, but I i've known guys that think that way. I didn't get infected by oral sex BTW.

why can't others accept the possibility that there are people like me who do everything to protect themselves but still get infected.

When you say "others" you are, of course, including everyone it seems. I don't care how you were infected. To be honest I would never ask someone else how they were infected because to me.... it's unimportant. While other's may have refuted your claims it does not necessarily mean they are judging you, they are merely disputing something you have reported as "possibly being true".

It doesn't mean they think you are a slut who brought this upon themselves through promiscuity.

We all realize HIV doesn't discriminate between the whore on 79 St in Miami or the faithful housewife who lives on the water. We all share an equal opportunity of infection here, and in so share a bit of responsibility unfortunately.

why can't others accept the possibility that there are people like me who do everything to protect themselves but still get infected. Why is it so hard to accept that there is only 'safer' sex and no such thing as 100 % safe sex? Surely, mine is not an original case.

2 times now and skeebo as well. Who are all these people who find it difficulty to accept that your risk isn't identifiable? I suspect, in fact, its yourself.

Just chillout you'll see in time no HIV+ people care and anyone HIV- who cares about you, doesn't care about how you got HIV.

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ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

I am not sure what you are suggesting by this post, but it seems to me that you are judging methods of becoming infected, as if there is both a right and wrong way to become poz. You also seem to be confusing the idea that oral sex is somehow more prevalent as a route of infection, than what science tells us. I also think you are having a difficult time in adjusting to your being poz and that is perfectly normal and understandable. However, you must remember, that just because we "feel" something, that does not make it true.

You say it frustrates you, when others do not believe your take on how you became infected and to that I answer: "So what?" Please do not confuse our doubt over oral transmission by anyone, because nobody said it could never happen, it is just that it has been rarely reported from reputable sources. And this brings us to what I believe is the crux of your frustration. As I read your replies it seems so very important to you, how others perceive your infection and that my friend, is a game you can never win. What others think about you, cannot affect you unless you allow it to be. But what is paramount here, is how you perceive yourself.

I wish I had an easy answer for you, but the answers you seek must come from within you. If you truly want to thrive with HIV, you need to get a grip and that always starts with being honest with ourselves. How you became infected does not matter to me, however it appears that it does matter to you. All I can offer is that your time will be better spent working at adjusting to being poz, than trying to control the views of others, over which you have no control. Sometimes perception can be everything, but in the end, all that ever matters is how we see ourselves.

There is nothing wrong with you because you are poz. We all know that and hopefully, with time, so will you.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I am not sure what you are suggesting by this post, but it seems to me that you are judging methods of becoming infected, as if there is both a right and wrong way to become poz. I also think you are having a difficult time in adjusting to your being poz and that is perfectly normal and understandable. However, you must remember, that just because we "feel" something, that does not make it true.

There is nothing wrong with you because you are poz. We all know that and hopefully, with time, so will you.

Can I get an amen? This is the heart of the matter and I think Joe so eloquently nailed it.

We know there are still some people who look at hiv as being aids; as something you can catch from a toilet seat/eating utensils or even as something only gay men, prostitutes, or drug addicts fall prey to. We know there are still many uneducated people in the world who believe these things. Just because you are poz, does not mean that you were a member of any of the numerous high risk groups that come to mind first thing for some people. If it bothers you that much, just tell them you are a hemophiliac who got it from a blood transfusion and smirk when you can see that they have no idea of what a hemophiliac is.

Seroconverted: Early 80sTested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. Last regimen: Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky )Past regimensFun stuff (in the past): HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

On the assumption that we both were negative, the only person I did have unprotected sex with was my ex, and he tested negative 3 months after last exposure with me. I have seen the test results so I know for certain that I didnít get my infection from him.

Seroconverted: Early 80sTested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. Last regimen: Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky )Past regimensFun stuff (in the past): HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Yes, I demanded to see my ex's test results. He is negative on 2 tests after last exposure with me. The last one being more than 3 months after last exposure. Thanks for your replies\analysis guys. I concede I might be still not entirely over why it happened to me and am getting counselling for the same. I just have to accept that I have it and move on. Inchingblue- what u said definitely was implicit, in my post I thought.

The Health Dept here will not give you any documentation that you tested neg. They said they don't want people using a neg result as proof to a partner that they are neg on the day they have sex. But, I know doctor offices and other clinics do give out documentation. But you're right, anything can be faked these days. I remember faking a doctor's note when I was 17 by scanning their letterhead and typing what I wanted it to say. I'm not suggesting at all this is what the OP's bf did. Just agreeing it can be done.

To the OP, I would just forget about what others say. People doubt my infection story. So what! Who cares!, as Joy Behar would say--actually the SNL caricature of her would say.

they don't even have to be doctored. As I was recently counseling a guy who was wanted "paper proof" from a potential partner, I pointed out that the piece of paper was only good for that exact moment in time. What if his soon-2-be sexual hookup went out the night after the test and was infected, before coming to visit this guy several days later? That's why, especially for a negative person, you have to behave like everyone you have sex with could be/is positive and take precaution. Documents mean nothing.

But you're right, anything can be faked these days. I remember faking a doctor's note when I was 17 by scanning their letterhead and typing what I wanted it to say.

There goes any chance you have of running for public office.

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Why do so many members on this forum and/or other poz people find it so unbelievably hard to believe or accept that some of us got infected despite taking precautions every single time that we can recall?

Now I donít claim to be an innocent virgin. I did sleep around, but AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER, I had protected sex every single time with every single guy (except my ex bf). Donít remember a single slip up or condom break. Not one. In fact, I didnít even have anal sex too much and mostly stuck to oral. ...

I've been thinking about this, and I think the problem here is the number of people proclaiming that they were infected despite taking all recommended precautions. If so many people really got infected that way, I think we would have a much larger epidemic on our hands. So the issue oftentimes is that people don't want to admit that they slipped up or took a risk, and hence are at least partly responsible for their own infection. I don't have a lot of tolerance for people who cannot accept responsibility for themselves and their health.

Even on the "I Just Tested Poz" forum, people introduce themselves and speak mostly of when they tested as positive, but less often speak of how they became positive. It would be refreshingly honest to hear more people say something like this:

I HAD UNPROTECTED SEX AND BECAME INFECTED WITH HIV

So we're not unsympathetic, just doubtful that there are so many proclaimed "immaculate infections". I suppose there is the odd case where is happens, but I think it is much less common than the posters here would lead you to believe -- and lead others to believe who are not HIV positive. Standing up and up and owning up to you got infected is the best way to help educate others.

Regards,

Henry

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

...It would be refreshingly honest to hear more people say something like this:

I HAD UNPROTECTED SEX AND BECAME INFECTED WITH HIV

not "admitting" to how you got infected often has to do with the many stigmas surrounding HIV - the biggest one just being a prudish attitude towards sex. Many people are secretive about their sexual activities and are then a little leery about proclaiming that is was via sex that they were infected, much less that it was through a specific act.

It really doesn't matter whether it was through drug-injecting, hetero or homosexual sex, what matters is that most people engaged in a documented risk behavior and now deal with the consequences. I think trying to define the exact act often contributes to people "classifying" their infection vector and thus giving a stigma to the situation making it seem like there are "right" ways and "wrong" ways to be infected.

I would rather hear most people be even more honest and include less stigma by just saying something like:I engaged in a risk behavior and became infected with HIV.

But there those of us that were not "a sperm sponge", that made the right decisions to practice safe sex. Then you meet what you think is the love of your life, you both go and get tested, even wait the six months and get tested again and then make the choice to have unprotected sex. I know my partner sorry ex partner and I said no unsafe sex outside the relationship. It makes it hard to except (or at least for me) that I am now positive because of another's lies and betrayal. I feel that this is happening alot and for those of us it makes the mental aspect of having this a hard pill to swallow

But there those of us that were not "a sperm sponge", that made the right decisions to practice safe sex. Then you meet what you think is the love of your life, you both go and get tested, even wait the six months and get tested again and then make the choice to have unprotected sex. I know my partner sorry ex partner and I said no unsafe sex outside the relationship. It makes it hard to except (or at least for me) that I am now positive because of another's lies and betrayal. I feel that this is happening alot and for those of us it makes the mental aspect of having this a hard pill to swallow

Do you need to use the term "sperm sponge"?

As far as people that were infected through a relationship, where as you describe you both went together to get tested, shall we now discuss the length of the courtship to determine if it was appropriate to enter into such a pact? I can't tell you how many times on this forum I've read stories that left me scratching my head that after a six-month courtship you know enough about another guy to leave yourself open to not-really-so-monogamous. (not saying that's what you did, as I don't recall your own story or even if you've gone into it, just that I've read such stuff here over and over through the years)

The ex and I were together around a year before condoms came off. I only used the term "sperm sponge" because someone else used it. I'm not passing judgement but when you put yourself in a high risk it would be hard to be surprised that you caught it. Once again no judgement. For me mentally it just sucks that I didn't get to have the fun but I got the punishment.

The ex and I were together around a year before condoms came off. I only used the term "sperm sponge" because someone else used it. I'm not passing judgement but when you put yourself in a high risk it would be hard to be surprised that you caught it. Once again no judgement. For me mentally it just sucks that I didn't get to have the fun but I got the punishment.

See, to me there's not much difference in being an outright "sperm sponge" and being someone that enters into a condom-free relationship with a guy you've only known for a year. You rolled the dice and you got burned. Surely you knew that there was a significant chance that someone you only knew for a year would turn out to not actually be faithful.

The ex and I were together around a year before condoms came off. I only used the term "sperm sponge" because someone else used it. I'm not passing judgement but when you put yourself in a high risk it would be hard to be surprised that you caught it. Once again no judgement. For me mentally it just sucks that I didn't get to have the fun but I got the punishment.

Now I understand why you are having such a hard time adjusting to being poz, especially if you see HIV as some sort of punishment. As I understand your story, you really have two separate issues at play here. The first is that you practiced safer sex consistently, yet you still became poz. That happened because of your second issue, which is that you were betrayed and lied to by your ex. I know the two seem hopelessly entwined, but I suggest that you really take a look at how you feel and "why" you feel as you do, to gain a better understanding of how you view yourself and your infection.

This is why some infection stories can become so complicated, because in your case, you followed safer sex guidelines, but unfortunately your ex did not. It is not that the safer sex guidelines failed you, it is that you were betrayed by someone close to you. While it may not ease your pain, I believe you could benefit greatly from gaining a better understanding of just what happened and how you feel about those events. Maybe then you can start to separate "your" issues, from the feelings of betrayal and hurt that you so rightly feel.

I am so sorry that you are suffering such pain, but at some point you need to choose, as to whether you are going to allow that pain to continue draining your being. We can never change the past, however, we can always control how we "see" that past. Ultimately, all that matters here is for you to come to a place of acceptance regarding your infection. All the rest is history and history cannot help you adjust to being poz, only you can.

For me mentally it just sucks that I didn't get to have the fun but I got the punishment.

I think you are still in the anger stage. With all due respect, you have a right to be pissed off because you were lied to, but as you know regardless of who its with.... when you have unprotected sex you have accepted the risk that comes along with it.

I knew all along that there was a risk and just threw that part aside. I wanted that raw cock DEEP inside me and you know what... I got it.

Bottom line is you guys are. To the op. There is alot of good people here with alot of great advise. Let's just remember doesn't matter how we all got here were all in the same boat now. So grabs ore and start paddling

See, to me there's not much difference in being an outright "sperm sponge" and being someone that enters into a condom-free relationship with a guy you've only known for a year. You rolled the dice and you got burned. Surely you knew that there was a significant chance that someone you only knew for a year would turn out to not actually be faithful.

I dunno. I agree with Miss P. Not knocking anything here, but I'm just wondering if someone can explain to me why a gay couple would even want to forego using protection anyway? I mean, is it because it's a sign of the ultimate commitment and love for one another? It feels better?

What would be someone's motivation for going this route, especially if they are neg? Can someone share a little insight so I can wrap my ambien-fogged brain around it?

I do understand that to some people they faithfully get tested when they decide to forego latex... okay, maybe this is something best left for a new thread in order not to hijack this one

Seroconverted: Early 80sTested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. Last regimen: Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky )Past regimensFun stuff (in the past): HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

I think it's important to realize that no one is guilty for getting HIV, even if we made mistakes along the way. So you got it through oral sex, or having 20 guys cumming inside of you in one night. Does it matter? No one deserves getting HIV. It only shows that, in whatever case, we like sex. Is that a sin? Well, then maybe that's why the rapture didn't happen yesterday, 'cause, damn, we are all guilty. I don't know anyone who hasn't had unprotected sex at least once in their lives. Some people get HIV, some don't. Some take a lot of risks with many partners and don't get it; some are very careful, having few partners, if not one, and get it anyway. It's like food poisoning: you may take all sorts of precautions, but no one can guarantee what will happen after that. That's life.

Somehow, the wheel of fortune has presented us with HIV. It could have been something else, something much worse. All we gotta do now is move on and face the wave, ever vigilant, ever hopeful.

Not knocking anything here, but I'm just wondering if someone can explain to me why a gay couple would even want to forego using protection anyway? I mean, is it because it's a sign of the ultimate commitment and love for one another? It feels better?

All of the above, and more. It feels great, much better; refusing to do without condoms sounds like you don't trust the person (if you are in a relationship); people think it will never happen to them; and people are just tired of safe-sex campaigns. I've mentioned this last one before, and I think the number of new infections will show a rise in the next years.

The thing is, it's a double-edged knife. As there are campaigns to reduce the stigma and discrimination against people with HIV, it also reduces the fear people have of it. I mean, and this is something I heard from one guy, you hear a lecture from a guy who has HIV for 20-something years, and it says that you should protect yourself, but he looks healthy, he just takes some pills a day, so you think it's not so bad. The message kind of loses its effectivity. In the 80s and 90s it was different, you would see those skinny people, famous artists, all dying from it. That scared the shit out of people. So how can a normal-looking guy scare you?

Also, there's another factor: depression. There are more people depressed than ever, and it's still on the rise, and that makes people not worry about protecting themselves, quite the contrary. One guy I know once told me he didn't mind getting HIV, because he didn't want to grow old and lonely. Many people think like that, although "luckily", even with HIV, they might grow old anyway. In my case, I was feeling down and I let my guard down because of that. Few times, but enough to get HIV.

So there's no plausible solution, except for a cure. And I see some scientists and activists realizing that, what explains the more recent push for finding one.

Are there studies showing how many poz gay folks got infected while thinking they were in a monogamous relationship, and not from dating, hook-ups, etc?

'Cause getting the AIDS while in a monogamous relationship is far more acceptable to society than from dating and hook-ups. I guess its a better form of HIV if contracted in a so called "monogamous" relationship.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 02:53:02 PM by woodshere »

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

I charged my AIDS at Tiffany's and like Gringrich I'm still paying it off. I wanted a more avant garde AIDS but my mom insisted in these matters one must stick with a classic, solid, respected brand of AIDS. Tiffany AIDS never goes out of fashion.

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ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx