tiltbillings wrote:But you have not shown that these supposed "some parts" are more prone to "I-making." You have stated that, repeatedly, but that is not an argument, which means there is not really much to respond to.

Well I did say "seem", as I was presenting a subjective perception moreso than an objective and falsifiable argument.

But since you raise it, and since you advised Octathlon a few posts ago that you believe the central issue pertains to the matter of continuity, what continuity do you feel it is imperative to maintain or explain in the context of the Dhamma?

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

tiltbillings wrote:But you have not shown that these supposed "some parts" are more prone to "I-making." You have stated that, repeatedly, but that is not an argument, which means there is not really much to respond to.

Well I did say "seem", as I was presenting a subjective perception moreso than an objective and falsifiable argument.

That is true.

But since you raise it, and since you advised Octathlon a few posts ago that you believe the central issue pertains to the matter of continuity, what continuity do you feel it is imperative to maintain or explain in the context of the Dhamma?

If there is no causal/conditioned continuity of any sort, then there is no awakening. But it depends upon what is meant by continuity. How are you using the word?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:If there is no causal/conditioned continuity of any sort, then there is no awakening.

I don't think there's any disagreement here.

Setting aside the "soul" aspect of the following quotation, and focusing on "the world" (loka), the Brahamajala Sutta explains the wrong view of the world arising without cause.

'There are, monks, some recluses and Brahmans who are Fortuitous-Originists, and who in two ways maintain that the soul and the world arise without a cause. And on what ground, starting out from what, do they do so?

'There are, monks, certain gods called Unconscious Beings. As soon as an idea occurs to them they fall from that state. Now it may well be, monks, that a being, on falling from that state, should come to this world; and having come to this world he might go forth from the household life into the homeless state. And having thus become a recluse he, by reason of ardour and so on (as in the other cases) reaches such a state of concentration that, rapt in heart, he calls to mind how that idea occurred to him, but not more than that. He says to himself: "Fortuitous in origin are the soul and the world. And why so? Because formerly I was not, but now am. Having not been, I have come to be."

'This, monks, is the first state of things on account of which, starting out from which some recluses and Brahmans become Fortuitous-Originists, and maintain that the soul and the world arise without a cause.

'And what is the second?

In this case, monks, some recluse or Brahman is addicted to logic and reasoning. He comes to the following conclusion, beaten out by his argumentations, and based on his sophistry: "The soul and the world arose without a cause."

Loka arises in accordance with the processes explained by the suttas referenced earlier in this topic.

tiltbillings wrote:But it depends upon what is meant by continuity. How are you using the word?

You're welcome to select another word if that would be more amenable... but what I'm pointing to is continuity of x over time, where x is any component or classification of sentient life. Or if you prefer, what is the actual problem/situation that notions like "storehouse consciousness", "bhavanga citta" and such are attempting to resolve/explain?

To what extent is it imperative to maintain or explain continuity of x over time, in the context of the Dhamma?

As I understand it, the Abhidhamma is attempting to demonstrate that one moment of consciousness is a necessary causal factor for the next moment of consciousness... and it uses concepts like "bhavanga citta" to fill the gaps in (sutta-defined, experienced) consciousness to form what is commonly called the "stream of consciousness".

Do you believe these gaps need to be filled in the interests of explaining the ensuing continuity or conditionality in the context of the Dhamma?

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

SN 35.23 - Sabba Sutta wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

Metta,Retro.

All of them.

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.

In the past I have actually had quite lucid experiences, even occasionally becoming aware that what is being experienced is a dream, and then paying mindful-attention satipatthana style, to the dream being experienced and its characteristics. Such experiences are certainly consciousness, regardless of how "deep" or otherwise someone might define the sleep.

On the flipside to those more lucid moments however, do you believe there are moments of non-consciousness, where there is no consciousness definable with reference to the six strands of consciousness? In other words, that there are "gaps" in consciousness, where consciousness is not experienced? (Experience of a dhamma being fundamental to something actually being a dhamma).

Or, as hypothesized by some others earlier in the topic, that there is a continuity of consciousness experienced with respect to the six-senses, but that it is just not remembered in the morning?

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Hi PaulYes, I read your earlier post. What I would ask you to consider is that perhaps those 'gap' times - consciousness is still present and is averting to this or that object. The fact that you are not presently aware (at the time of the experience) nor can you recall the experience does not indicate to me that consciousness and object were not present. Often on retreat I meditate throughout sleep from 9.30PM to 4AM. Sometimes it happens in daily life. If deep sleep was truely without consciousness then how does one explain one's tossing and turning, or manufacturing a dream around an external noise such as an alarm clock, or people doing strange things like sleep walking or having conversations in their sleep? I don't think they are disturbances as you alluded to earlier, I do think that consciousness is continuing to tick over during sleep and is averting to the dominant sensory object at the time.Anyway, I've got trees to plant....kind regards

Ben

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.

Ben wrote:What I would ask you to consider is that perhaps those 'gap' times - consciousness is still present and is averting to this or that object. The fact that you are not presently aware (at the time of the experience) nor can you recall the experience does not indicate to me that consciousness and object were not present.

Sure, but if there is never awareness of it (neither then at the time, nor afterwards), such a suggestion can neither be proved, nor disproved. Or if you prefer, never known to be true, never known to be false.

That is essentially my point in this topic... if there is no awareness of any consciousness, then there is no personal experience by which such cittas could ever be verified or refuted - making it, by definition, speculative. Not being connected to experience, it is not connected to the fundamental Dhamma matters of dukkha and nirodha, and is therefore not relevant to the Dhamma either. Hence, why the Buddha did not teach it.

Yet despite its speculativeness and irrelevance, seemingly all schools of Buddhist thought insisted on speculating upon the irrelevant... and as happens when speculation is involved, they all came up with different speculative interpretations and argued with each other about whose speculative interpretation was correct.

We can pick a side, or opt out of the speculation altogether. I choose the latter option.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Ben wrote:What I would ask you to consider is that perhaps those 'gap' times - consciousness is still present and is averting to this or that object. The fact that you are not presently aware (at the time of the experience) nor can you recall the experience does not indicate to me that consciousness and object were not present.

Sure, but if there is never awareness of it (neither then at the time, nor afterwards), such a suggestion can neither be proved, nor disproved. Or if you prefer, never known to be true, never known to be false.

That is essentially my point in this topic... if there is no awareness of any consciousness, then there is no personal experience by which such cittas could ever be verified or refuted - making it, by definition, speculative. Not being connected to experience, it is not connected to the fundamental Dhamma matters of dukkha and nirodha, and is therefore not relevant to the Dhamma either. Hence, why the Buddha did not teach it.

Ahh with respect, I disagree. It is interesting to note that during sleep one responds to irritation, coldness, pressure on the bladder and a whole variety of other sensory data. And in the morning, one may not recollect its occurance. So, what is going on if there is no consciousness?

retrofuturist wrote:We can pick a side, or opt out of the speculation altogether. I choose the latter option.

I am not speculating, Retro.kind regards

Ben

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.

Ben wrote:Ahh with respect, I disagree. It is interesting to note that during sleep one responds to irritation, coldness, pressure on the bladder and a whole variety of other sensory data. And in the morning, one may not recollect its occurance. So, what is going on if there is no consciousness?

They are all examples of consciousness associated with the six-senses!

That all goes without saying - such blatant examples of consciousness which accord with the Buddha's teachings on consciousness are not what this topic about. It's about those moments in time during sleep where there is no conscious awareness of anything... are there "sub-conscious" cittas going on such as the bhavanga-citta of the Abhidhamma, and if so how does anyone ever know that is so, if it's below the threshhold of vinnana?

In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

retrofuturist wrote:Setting aside the "soul" aspect of the following quotation, and focusing on "the world" (loka), the Brahamajala Sutta explains the wrong view of the world arising without cause.

'There are, monks, some recluses . . . .

Loka arises in accordance with the processes explained by the suttas referenced earlier in this topic.

What is your point here?

tiltbillings wrote:But it depends upon what is meant by continuity. How are you using the word?

You're welcome to select another word if that would be more amenable... but what I'm pointing to is continuity of x over time, where x is any component or classification of sentient life. Or if you prefer, what is the actual problem/situation that notions like "storehouse consciousness", "bhavanga citta" and such are attempting to resolve/explain?

This is way too vague to respond to. You’ll need to clarify and expand a bit on what you are saying.

To what extent is it imperative to maintain or explain continuity of x over time, in the context of the Dhamma?

Again, how are you using “x”? Is the adult the same as the child? Is there something that continues unchanged over time? What are you getting at with your question?

As I understand it, the Abhidhamma is attempting to demonstrate that one moment of consciousness is a necessary causal factor for the next moment of consciousness... and it uses concepts like "bhavanaga citta" to fill the gaps in (sutta-defined, experienced) consciousness to form what is commonly called the "stream of consciousness". Do you believe these gaps need to be filled in the interests of explaining the ensuing continuity or conditionality in the context of the Dhamma?

You are admitting there are gaps?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

retrofuturist wrote:Loka arises in accordance with the processes explained by the suttas referenced earlier in this topic.

tiltbillings wrote:What is your point here?

That the "arising" of any possible dhamma or experience is already explained in the suttas. Neither "bhavanga-citta", nor even any "previous citta" is listed as such a cause for present dhammas or present vinnana in the suttas.

retrofuturist wrote:To what extent is it imperative to maintain or explain continuity of x over time, in the context of the Dhamma?

tiltbillings wrote:Again, how are you using “x”? Is the adult the same as the child? Is there something that continues unchanged over time? What are you getting at with your question?

Any of those are examples of what could be "x"... I wrote it as a general formula so that it could apply to any and all examples of "continuity". It's deliberately open ended, so that you, or someone else wishing to put forward a positive case in favour of bhavanga-citta supporting "continuity" can do so.

tiltbillings wrote:You are admitting there are gaps?

Gaps in vinnana, as described by the Buddha, yes.

In other words, there are times when there is no discernable coming together of:

Is there other "stuff" still going on in the absence of such cognitive discernment? That's what I'm not speculating on.

Is that stuff "vinnana" according to the Buddha's definition in the suttas? No.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Well, I think it depends on what you mean by awareness. To me, I think we are coming at the term from two very different understandings.

retrofuturist wrote:In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Beyond here lies nothing (Bob Dylan)

Paul, when you spend some extended time practicing samatha day-in day-out you unveil the processes going on in the subconscious. Just because you are not being beaten over the head by some sensory data that forces you to give it undivided attention, does not mean there isn't stuff going on or vinnana isn't averting to the sensory input.kind regards

Ben

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.

retrofuturist wrote:Loka arises in accordance with the processes explained by the suttas referenced earlier in this topic.

tiltbillings wrote:What is your point here?

That the "arising" of any possible dhamma or experience is already explained in the suttas. Neither "bhavanga-citta", nor even any "previous citta" is listed as such a cause for present dhammas in the suttas.

So, do explain how when the process of experience that has ceased arises again:

But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling." -- SN 41.6

retrofuturist wrote:To what extent is it imperative to maintain or explain continuity of x over time, in the context of the Dhamma?

tiltbillings wrote:Again, how are you using “x”? Is the adult the same as the child? Is there something that continues unchanged over time? What are you getting at with your question?

Any of those are examples of what could be "x"... I wrote it as a general formula so that it could apply to any and all examples of "continuity". It's deliberately open ended, so that you, or someone else wishing to put forward a positive case in favour of bhavanga-citta supporting "continuity" can do so.

Are you assuming that “x” is an unchanging thing? Or is “x” a conventional way of referring to something understood to be a process of conditioned/conditioning change?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Ben wrote:when you spend some extended time practicing samatha day-in day-out you unveil the processes going on in the subconscious.

Once 'unveiled' they are objects of vinnana. When not 'unveiled' they are not objects of vinnana.

This distinction is entirely independent of whether western psychology would define the object as being 'subconscious' or not.

That is how i understand vinnana in the Dhamma.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

tiltbillings wrote:So, do explain how when the process of experience that has ceased arises again:

But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling." -- SN 41.6

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

tiltbillings wrote:Are you assuming that “x” is an unchanging thing? Or is “x” a conventional way of referring to something understood to be a process of conditioned/conditioning change?

It's a moot point until someone indicates a willingness to frame a positive argument in favour of bhavanga-citta or storehouse consciousness. 117 posts in and no sign of anyone prepared to advocate for such post-Buddha creations.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

But it really does not explain why it happens; it merely describeds what happens. Big difference.

Indeed... neither the Buddha nor his contemporaneous arahants felt the need to explain the mechanics. Perhaps there's something in that?

tiltbillings wrote:You are assuming that bhavanga is a self thingie somehow?

No.

tiltbillings wrote:As for alaya vijnana, that is a Mahayana concept.

I know... but it appears to me as if it's the Mahayana scholastic equivalent of the same thing... namely, the compulsion to define and explain a mechanism for the continuity of certain things over time.

However, the Buddha did not go to lengths to support continuity... his emphasis was on explaining disintegration.

Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world' it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply?

"Insofar as it disintegrates, monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate...

"The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate...

"The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate...

"The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate...

"The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'"

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

But it really does not explain why it happens; it merely describeds what happens. Big difference.

Indeed... neither the Buddha nor his contemporaneous arahants felt the need to explain the mechanics. Perhaps there's something in that?

Maybe, but they did in other instances.

tiltbillings wrote:You are assuming that bhavanga is a self thingie somehow?

No.

Then, what is the problem?

tiltbillings wrote:As for alaya vijnana, that is a Mahayana concept.

I know... but it appears to me as if it's the Mahayana scholastic equivalent of the same thing... namely, the compulsion to define and explain a mechanism for the continuity of certain things over time.

You’ll need to take that up on Dharma Wheel.

However, the Buddha did not go to lengths to support continuity... his emphasis was on explaining disintegration. SN 35.82: Loka Sutta . . . .

You are pulling my leg here.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.