Chicago Bulls

The Forgotten King: 6 Reasons Why Lebron is the 2011 NBA MVP

A few days ago, my colleague and fellow Chasing 23 editor, The NBA Realist, suggested that it was Dwight Howard who might deserve MVP, not Derrick Rose. My first instinct was to think “Rose has had a unbelievable year on a team with the best record on the East. Of course he deserves it.” Then I checked my facts.

And I changed my mind.

There are defining moments in every objective (and even moderately intelligent) basketball fan’s life, that require you to pull away from the hype, and face the reality. The reality is: we would vote for Rose over Lebron James for much the same reasons we voted for Malone over Jordan back in 1997 . It seemed like a really good idea at the time. And trust me on this. In 5 years, it will seem like a terrible idea.

Here’s why.

6. The Heat’s record underrates their performance this year.

The Heat started the season at 8-7. If you take away their sluggish start, they have proceeded to tear up the NBA, going 43-16 since, a 60-win pace. This is even more remarkable when you consider that this is a team that lost their “glue” guy, Udonis Haslem, early in the year and has been without another starter, Mike Miller, for 1/2 the year. Additionally, the Heat were almost entirely assembled with new pieces that have never played with each other.

While what Rose and the Bulls have done has been impressive this year, the Heat’s performance has been unfairly criticized and Lebron deserves more credit for holding the ship together than he gets.

5. Lebron is statistically much better than Rose.

Let’s now look at the cold, hard facts. Lebron is simply much more statistically superior to Derrick Rose. Figure 1 below show a comparison through 71 games of the two superstars’ 2010-2011 performance.

Lebron clearly has had a more efficient and statistically impressive campaign, averaging 1.6 more points, 3.3 more rebounds, and 0.4 more steals than Rose. Additionally, his FG% is a whopping 6.6% higher than Rose’s. In short, Lebron is able to average more points per game while take almost 1.5 less shots.

Rose takes only two categories. Assists, which he surprisingly only leads by 1.1 apg, and FT%, the least important of the major categories. The sum of all of this is, Lebron’s PER comes in much higher than Rose, at 27.0 vs. 23.5.

Lebron’s statistical dominance is all the more impressive when you consider he is doing it with another alpha dog (D-Wade) on his team.

4. Lebron is a better defensive player than Rose.

Not only is Lebron better statistically than Rose, he plays better defense as well. This has been an underrated part of Lebron’s game and he has gotten better with each year he has spent in the league (even earning his own signature defensive move: the “chase-down block” from behind). As such, Lebron often “impacts” more plays for the Heat, than does Rose for the Bulls. While Rose’s defense has improved in his 3rd year under the guidance of Thibodeau, it still isn’t consistent on a night in and night out basis.

If you don’t buy this, you haven’t been watching the Bulls. Thibodeau has resuscitated the careers of players like Luol Deng. Left for dead (or at least Carmelo trade bait) just a year ago, Deng has rediscovered his game and actually has shown inklings of defensive desire for the first time in his career. The Bulls’ defense ranks #1 in the NBA, allowing opposing teams to shoot a measly 42.8% from the field, without any particularly strong defensive players outside of Ronnie Brewer and Joakim Noah. This is all Thibodeau’s doing. He has given the Bulls an identity, and if the Spurs continue their collapse, will be NBA Coach of the Year.

On the other hand, Lebron has played most of this season with a coach who is most likely to be fired at the end of the season.

2. If Lebron and Rose switched places, the Bulls would be better off than the Heat.

This is the classic argument. What would happen if the 2 players you’re comparing switched places? Imagine a Bulls team with a starting lineup that included Lebron, Boozer, Noah, and Deng – along with strong role players like Ronnie Brewer, Kyle Korver, and Taj Gibson. It’s a team that could undoubtedly compete for the championship. Now take a Miami team with Rose, Wade, and Bosh and very little else. It’s difficult to argue that they would be better than the Heat currently are, and most likely, would be worse. It’s also likely that Rose would not be the alpha dog on that team, but rather Wade would be.

Stated even simpler, Lebron brings more to the table in either scenario.

1. At the end of the day, one is an All-star, the other is a legend.

Who do you think of when you think of basketball MVPs? Most likely, you think of names like Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Olajuwon, Kobe, Shaq, etc. These are the elite of the elite. Lebron is so good, we often do, as he likes to say, take him for granted. What other player can average effectively 27-8-7, shoot 50% from the field, lead a brand new team to almost 60 wins with an inexperienced head coach, and get almost no MVP love? If Rose were putting up those numbers, people would talk about him as if he were the second coming.

The problem is, with Lebron, just like Jordan 14 years ago, we expect it. Rose and the Bulls made such a phenomenal leap this year, that it took everyone by surprise. And like lemmings, the media anointed their next best thing. Lebron is a player that, as long as he wins a couple of rings, will definitively be in the top 5 discussion at the end of his career. It’s arguable today whether Rose is even the best player at his position (let’s not so quickly forget Chris Paul‘s runner-up MVP campaign in 2007-8 when he averaged 21-12-4, shot 49% with 3 steals per game).

There is the possibility that D-Rose may at some point evolve into an all-time great point guard, but at this point in his career, that still seems like a long way off. Rose may be an potential heir to the throne, but right now, he is no King.

Discussion

#6: The Heat under performed…You have three of the top 15 players, and 2 of which is considered 1a and 1b…With such dynamic players in Lebron and Wade, they’ve lost so many close games which is frankly inexcusable…You can blame both Lebron and Wade for not adjusting well enough to capture those wins in the final minute…Either way, it’s a minus against Lebron since he did take a majority of the final shots.

#3: If you’re going to take away credit from Rose because of his Coach, then you have to consider that Lebron is playing with Dwade (a Finals MVP) who has almost the same if not more phenomenal games than Lebron, in terms of scoring, steals, and blocks…Lebron is #1 in PER and Wade is #3 in PER respectively…That says a lot.

#2: The argument of switching places is soooo lame…Sorry, but that argument holds no water…I can say the same thing when Nash won two MVPs over Kobe…If you switch Kobe with Nash, how far do you think Nash would take the lakers with Smush, Luke, and Kwame brown whereas Kobe would be playing with 2 allstars and 1 sixth man of the year during his most dominant form athletically…Moreover, the debate with Lebron for the past few years is that if you give him good allstars, his team will be unbeatable cause he’s “done so much” with little talent in Cleveland, but how do you explain that now he’s playing with 1 megastar and another allstar, and veterns but yet he’ll have a worse team record this year then compared to his last 2 seasons with the Cavs? And please don’t use the “team needs time to gel” explanation…Kobe got Pau, who has never won a playoff game, mid-season without training camp and has gone to the finals every single year since.

My bottom line is that Lebron is definitely a beast, but you do have to consider that he’s playing with another beast in Wade, yet they’re 3rd in the East…Rose is surrounded by good players, not great, and the Bulls are in 1st place…Overall, he’s definitely doing more with less this year compared to Lebron, which is the same exact argument that has earned Lebron two MVPs already…Sorry, but when Lebron teamed up with Wade and Bosh, he can no longer use the “I have no players around me” and “doing more with less” crutches anymore.

Hey, if Lebron starts playing in the last 4 minutes of games come talk to me. Until then DRose will remain the most cold blooded killer in the NBA and clearly the MVP. Just watch a Bulls game and see how much attention Rose gets and how many players he sets up, assists are a tough thing to track and don’t necessarily summarize a player’s full contribution to their team.

Kevin — thanks for the comment, but have to strongly disagree with this. Do “cold blooded killers” shoot 37.5% in clutch situations under 5 minutes in a game (for more on this, see: http://www.82games.com/1011/10CHI3.HTM)

The fact is, all people remember is a couple of game winning shots Lebron misses here or there. There are many times where he takes over the 4th and leads the Heat to victory. He is more efficient, has a better +/-, and scores more than Rose in the clutch. Sure, Rose has more assists, but shouldn’t he? He’s a point guard after all…

Saying clutch situations can be accounted by just taking the stats from under 5 minutes left in the game is pure insanity. Clutch situations should only take away from plays made or not made in order to tie, break a tie, or hold off a comeback in the final moments of a game. Last 5 minutes of a game = clutch? Not even close, once again statistics fail to account for reality. I find peace in knowing that Basketball is simply too dynamic for the finite application of statistics. Unlike Baseball, thank god. Stats are very useful, and we can tell things about players from shooting efficiency, PER, ts%, etc. But we can only establish that those within a certain range are very good. For instance Rose and Westbrook appear very similar in PER, yet Rose excels without a Kevin Durant, and rebounds less because he has excellent interior rebounders as teammates as opposed to Westbrook who rebounds more than Rose because he lacks big rebounding teammates. This edge in rebounding is the only thing holding Westbrook near Rose’s PER, and even then, as I said, it doesn’t account for having Kevin Durant to kick it out to. Rose has Keith Bogans as his shooting guard, HA, account for that. And then theres the use of steals in PER. You do realize that some of the worst defenders in the league are in the top 10 for steals? Guys sit in the lane and wait to jump balls when they should be tight on their man. So many clowns pile up steals with this facade defensive tactic. Rondo, Lebron, and Wade all benefit from this, while they would serve their teams better to D up their man and cause turnovers or bad shots which are just as effective as turnovers. Look at Rose in games against the top tier point guards in the league. He has dominated all of them, holding each to below average shooting. PER cannot account for this.

Look, Lebron does have better numbers than Rose, efficiency wise and ppg wise. But Rose accounts for a higher percentage of his teams Offense, and has delivered in TRUE clutch situations again and again while Lebron has failed. Efficiency is useful, but taking statistics over your own eyes(the greatest gift we have) is to actually take a step back in basketball intelligence, not a step forward. The smart basketball fan can watch basketball and see what he sees, he then should look at stats and consider their legitimacy, as well as where they fall short. Doing the opposite however is self defeating.

Well there is no excuse for Lebron to average sorry I don’t know the exact number but a little over 2 points in the fourth quarter in the NBA Finals? The Biggest stage in the world!? How about an 8 point performance in game 4, granted he did respond with a triple double, but his team still lost! How about the elimination game? 9 points in the first half of the first quarter and started the 4 quarter with 13 points or somewhere around there? I was thoroughly disappointed with Lebron in this series. All he had to do was play close to as well as he did during the Celtics and Bulls series and they would have won in 4 or 5 games.

#6: So the Heat will wind up with around 57 wins this year. There were many people who were expecting them to win 60+, but really, how much of an “underperform” has this been? (and how much is just media hype). If you excuse their first 15 games when they were adjusting to each other, they have been dominant since. For a team where literally every guy is new, this is not bad. I just think it’s gotten really popular to bash the Heat, but I’m not seeing the hard statistical evidence. Additionally, think about the fact this team was already thin and was missing 2 of its starters for much of the year. At most, I think it would be reasonable to say the Heat should have won 61-62 games this year, and by that logic, 57 games would not be a huge disappointment. Again, my point here is not to take away credit from what Rose has done with the Bulls, but rather to point out that people are beating up the Heat way too much for what has been a decent 1st season together.

#3: I don’t get this logic. Thibodeau has been, by most accounts, the primary reason for the Bulls improvement this year (with Rose’s improvement also playing a big factor). If anything, D-Wade has hurt Lebron’s stats vs. the time when he was in Cleveland. It is still impressive that Lebron has put up the stats he has while playing with another “alpha dog”.

#2 Don’t get the Kobe to Pau comparison at all. When Pau was traded to the Lakers they already had the pieces to their team almost entirely in place and were actually a top 2 team in the West at the time. I also don’t agree that if you put Kobe on that Suns team that they would have been better off. On the contrary, Nash was a unique player who fit perfectly into D’Antoni’s system. Also keep in mind, the year that Nash won, Kobe and the Lakers were no where close to the Suns in terms of record. Lebron & co on the other hand, are just a couple of games behind the Bulls (though from hearing folks talk about it, you would think the Heat are the 8 seed in the East)

I Think Its more the other way around. Lebron scoring is the only thing that’s down and its not by much. Wade averages over 6 assist per game for his career and this season he is averaging almost 2 less a game. Mainly because Lebron controls the ball more than Wade does. Although Wade is scoring around his career average, his scoring is also down from the past two seasons.

#6- This practice in eliminating their bad start is impractical. How many other teams had just as much adjusting to do? How about the Bulls? The Bulls had 8 new players, ALL of which play over 10 mpg. They also started off with a similar record to the Heat. In fact if you took the records from where you say the Bulls would still hold a 2 game edge over the Heat. Additionally the Bulls started their first 20+ games without Carlos Boozer, their second leading scorer. The fact is almost every team has much to adjust to early on with a few exceptions(Boston, Lakers), crying about your poor start is just preaching to the choir. Plus Lebron, Wade, and Bosh have all played over 30 international games together. Get over it.

I love how people point out the Heat’s bad start and try to sweep it under the rug. Well the Bulls did not start out 15-0, they were 9-8 same as the Heat at one point this season, but missing their second and third best players for much of the season. #6 is thrown out.

I am a little tired of people keep saying that the bulls was missing their 2nd and 3rd best players for most of the season when in reality carlos boozer only missed 15 games in which the bulls lost 6 of them. that 60 game thing that everybody is spewing out is mostly all noah, whom the bulls have no trouble winning without because taj gibson does the same if not more then noah when he gets additional playing time.

Kay, um.. Let’s see.. Haven’t we all figured out that the best record means absolutely nothing..? If it did LeBron would have 2 rings already. LeBron won 62 games in Cleveland with the lineup consisting of players like: Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Antwan Jamison (who may I add is very overrated) and big Z.. Compare that to the cast D Rose had this year with Boozer Noah Korver Deng Ect, you see Rose is working with a lot more talent. Put LeBron in Chi Town and you have a BEASTMODE team, put rose in Cleveland you get 30 wins MAYBE.. but enough about his Cleveland team, let’s put d rose on a team with another beast, let’s say Carmelo, and his stats would be about 18 Ppg with 6-8 apg, you put king James with the 2-3rd best player in the league in Wade and he gets 27 Ppg 7 apg and 8 rpg?! That’s amazing to me, oh yeah he’s also sharing the court with Chris bosh.. a solid 20 ppg player.. LeBron is undoubtedly the best player on the planet, and would be more valuable than Kobe if he would have taken his talents to L.A instead of MIA, and I love rose, he’s good, great even. But LeBron’s just on a planet of his own..

Your argument to point #2 actually helps proves “Brown Mamba’s” argument. Kobe should have been MVP over Nash at the very least one of those years, and many people thought so. Heck, this year alone he came up in the discussions as MVP based on the fact that many could not believe he only had one. In essence looking back (thus the point of the article – check the 5 years from now statement)and realizing ‘oh we messed up’. Its called objectivity, and it usually doesn’t come to light until we release the fanatic, and hype of the new ‘hot’ thing of the moment.

And this is not a shot at Rose he is certainly deserving. But b/c of the hype of the moment we (or some) see it as undebatable that it was his.

The Heat dominate when D-Wade is out (11-1) and lose over half the games that LeBron misses. This is the most telling stat that D-Wade (as good as he is) is actually a hinderance to LeBron. LeBron may very well have had a 32 PER and averaged 30-9-8 had he stayed in Cleveland.

Mamba – I can’t believe a pro lebron article is coming from you! but thank your for speaking the truth…people don’t respect Lebron enough anymore, they are spoilt by the numbers he puts up year in and year out…

Lebron is so good, we often do, as he likes to say, take him for granted. What other player can average effectively 27-8-7, shoot 50% from the field, lead a brand new team to almost 60 wins with an inexperienced head coach, and get almost no MVP love?
The problem is, with Lebron, just like Jordan 14 years ago, we expect it. Rose and the Bulls made such a phenomenal leap this year, that it took everyone by surprise. And like lemmings, the media anointed their next best thing.

thank you Laaadeeedaaa (you may want to mix in a couple of consonants in your handle). I think we’ve gotten spoilt in many ways. If Rose put up this line, we would be saying how incredible he is. With Lebron, it’s kind of become a ho-hum type of situation.

Your arguments are fallacious at best, and are easily refuted, or countered by using the same points for DRose.

For example:

The Bulls’ record underrates their performance. The Bulls started the season at 9-8, and since then they’ve gone 44-12 – a 64+ win pace!! This is even more remarkable considering the Bulls went for long time without their ‘glue’ guy Joakim Noah, had Carlos Boozer out for significant stretches with injury, as well has having seven new players on the roster AND a rookie head coach.

5. LeBron is statistically better than DRose, except in the Won-Loss and Win Percentage columns. Furthermore, the MVP isn’t awarded by statistics. There are many cases in the past where the best player ‘on paper’ didn’t win the MVP. Stats are secondary.

4. LeBron isn’t much better defensively than DRose, if at all. LeBron uses his great athleticism on help defense and chasing down folks from behind, but he’s just as often lackadaisical, and he doesn’t face the same level of athleticism at his position as DRose does at PG, having to guard DWill, CP3, Rondo, Westbrook, etc. DRose has vastly improved his defense this season, far more than you give him credit for, and the Bulls are a better defensive team overall than the Heat.

3. Derrick Rose has made Tom Thibodeau a great coach as much as Thibs made the Bulls a great team. LeBron is playing with a coach that might be fired after this season? Gee, just like his last coach. Maybe LeBron is a coach-killer?

2. Switching places? Really? If the Bulls would be better WITH LeBron, then maybe LeBron should’ve, I don’t know, GONE TO THE BULLS? Lame, lame, lame, as other posters have pointed out. Furthermore, LeBron wouldn’t have played with “Boozer, Noah, and Deng” for more than, what – 15 or 20 games this season in which they’ve been healthy? And the role players on the Heat (Garbage) vs the Bulls (Brewer, Taj, Korver) – that’s the situation that LeBron himself CREATED by going to the Heat, so it’s the criterion by which he should be judged.

1. One is an All-Star, and the other is a Legend? This is your lamest argument. First – All-Stars have won MVPs in the past. Second – Many legends have not won MVP every year of their career. Third – you’re calling LeBron a legend because of his ‘on paper’ stats, yet he’s never won an NBA Title. Fourth – DRose is only in his 3rd year in the NBA, so how could he possibly be a ‘Legend’ at this point (even MJ wasn’t at that time, let alone that age – 23).

In five years time, Derrick Rose could very well be a legend and a winner of one or more NBA titles (which would put him ahead of LeBron in terms of age, while doing it on his home-town team) – at which point NOBODY in their right mind would think that DRose winning the MVP this year was anything other than completely justifiable.

If you’re going to stump for Lebron, you should at least use arguments that can’t also be used for DRose, and use arguments that don’t ‘beg the question’, like stating that currently one is a Legend while the other is ‘only’ and All-Star, when the All-Star could easily become a bigger legend in the future.

WHATEVER –
6 – I think this is precisely the point. You aren’t in any minority when you point out over and over Rose didn’t have Boozer and Noah for long stretches, I think the author listed this point because the same logic is rarely applied to LeBron for Haslem and Miller, the Heat’s two biggest contracts apart from the Big 3. Not to mention, you can play this “What if they were healthy” game for every team in the league. Can you imagine what Boston’s record would look like if they were all healthy this year? So basically, apply it for both, or neither, but don’t just do it for one of them, and since everyone seems to do it for Rose, he it is for LBJ.

5- Firsly, Won/Loss and Win Percentage measure the same thing, so thats like listing two positives for the same thing. Second, MVP’s aren’t given just for having good records, otherwise someone on the Spurs would be in contention, or someone on the Celtics would have been talked about for the first 3/4 of the season when they were leading the East. If anything, their record is mainly showing Thib’s should get Coach of the year, because he made the Bull’s have the best defense in the league. Who is the least important piece of the league 1st ranked defense? Rose. Who is their most important piece on their league 14th ranked offence? Rose. Further, stats help you tell how much of those wins comes directly from that players doing, rather than other sources. The Bull’s have a slightly better record than the Heat because of their league first defense of which Rose isn’t the main piece. More on this later.

4- Yes, LBJ is much better defensively than Rose. It doesn’t matter that it’s because hes more athletic, why is that a detraction from the fact? Also, the award is MVP, not most IMPROVED but most valuable. Yes, Rose has improved his defense tremendously. He should win Most Improved Player this year.
Finally – Sticking “The bulls are better than the Heat” defensively means little because 1) The difference is not huge (Miami is ranked 4th) and 2) the team’s system is the large factor in that, not Rose’s defence personally. Again, its Most Valuable Player, not “Leader of Best Team” or anything else.

3- I don’t understand why you say Rose has made Thib’s as good as Thib’s made Rose? Thib’s ran the best defensive system in the league as assistant coach in Boston years before he took the job at Chicago. I won’t even address the “Coach Killer” thing, whatever that is meant to mean.

2 – That’s not how it works. Criteria for MVP does not include off season judgement of what team to choose as a free agent, but rather than actual PLAY he does during the season. It’s Most Valuable Player. Not “Most Likely to be a General Manager after retirement”.

1. Yes, its true other legends haven’t won MVP every year of their careers. But only because voters got bored of voting for the same person again and again because they come to expect that greatness. This is precisely the point of this argument – That LBJ won’t win not because hes not the best, but because people are tired of voting him in. Do you think Jordan wasn’t the best player in the league in ’93 or ’97?

Let me add some more to Gibz response here to Whatever (but I thought for the most part, it was well stated):

#6 — people keep miscontruing I am being critical of Rose here. I’m not. I’m merely saying that if your expectations for a new team with an inexperienced coach and no depth beyond 3 players were that they should have won way more than 57 games, I think you were being unrealistic. I think most people are choosing to focus on the Heat’s poor start and losing streak during the season, and not looking an the overall picture. Their record is not vastly different from the Bulls’.

Additionally, just like Whatever points out the stats are a final determinant of MVP status, neither is record. Bryant, Nash, and Duncan all won MVPs this past decade without the best record.

#5 — Again, I don’t get this point by Whatever. I’m not saying stats are the only factor, but you look at the whole picture, and Lebron definitely wins in this particular comparison (whereas Rose has a slight edge in record)

#4 — This is probably Whatever’s weakest argument. Completely agree with Gibz here. You can’t discount Lebron’s defense because he is so athletic. Was Shaq any less dominant because he was bigger than everyone else? Lebron can defend more positions that Rose, actually averages more steals that Rose, and is generally a better help defender as well. And what does the Bulls being a better defensive team have to do with it? That just leads to my next point…

#3 Thibs is the real deal. As Gibz states, he was the real deal at Boston, and the real deal in Chi-town. All I’m saying here is that Thibs was additive to Rose’s situation, whereas I think Spoelstra may have actually been a negative for Lebron.

#2 You’re not answering the question Whatever. Are you saying you think the Bulls would currently have a worse record with Lebron instead of Rose????

#1 Let me clarify what I meant here because clearly it didn’t come through. Lebron is on a completely DIFFERENT tier as a player than Rose. There are 3 players currently at that tier in the NBA – Kobe, Lebron, and Wade (and an argument could be made for Dwight Howard). On Rose’s best day, he has a game that would largely be average for Lebron. We give him so many accolades now because he is exceeding all expectations we had for him entering the season.

For example, point #6 above. You state “no depth beyond 3 players”, but you claim that Udonis Haslem is their ‘glue guy’. Well, that means more than 3 players. Okay, so he’s been injured much of the season. But I’ll take your exact quote and change it for Derrick Rose:

“I’m merely saying that if your expectations for a team with 7 new players (new team) with a rookie head coach (inexperienced) and no depth beyond 4 players were that they should have won way more than 57 games, I think you were being unrealistic. I think most people are choosing to focus on the Bulls’ poor start and losing streak during the season, and not looking an the overall picture.”

Just because the Bulls have proven to have a good bench after the fact, doesn’t mean that Derrick Rose doesn’t have something to do with the overall team’s success. Can we really say that Keith Bogans, Kyle Korver, CJ Watson, Omer Asik, and Taj Gibson are responsible for the Bulls’ #1 seed? Your argument for LeBron is equally as applicable for Rose.

#5 – So LeBron wins the statistics comparison. So what? It’s not a statistical award, nor an award based on statistics. MLB has the silver slugger, given to the player with the highest batting average. This is not such an award. Maybe you should lobby the NBA to adopt such an award. But until that time, Rose has GREAT statistics, definitely close enough to be considered.

#4 – I’m not discounting LeBron’s defense. But I am stating that Rose’s defense is MUCH MUCH better than most people think, and it’s a myth that he is a bad defender. You noticed my link below – several statistically-minded folks believe Rose has progressed beyond CP3, Rondo, and Westbrook this year. And to answer your question below – no, I don’t think Rose is better than LeBron, but better is a relative term. Rose has to guard PGs who are far more athletic, on average, than the positions that LeBron is guarding, and he also has to do it ‘on an island’, quite often, as it is the point of the defense.

#3 – I understand that you believe that Thibs contributes to Rose’s success more than Spoelstra contributes to LeBron’s success. It’s an easy conclusion to make. But couldn’t it also be true that Rose contributes to Thibs success more than LeBron contributes to Spoelstra’s success? In other words, one could come to the conclusion through watching them on the court, off the court, and in practice, that Derrick Rose is a more COACHABLE player than LeBron. Can anyone ever imagine Derrick Rose bumping his coach in the chest, giving him a hip-check, on the way off the court, as LeBron did to Mike Brown?

It’s all too easy to attribute the coach’s ability to the player’s success, but you can’t attribute the player’s ability to the coach’s success? It’s obvious to me that Derrick Rose does his best to enable Thibs to be a fantastic coach. Whereas, is LeBron truly enabling Spoelstra to be a great coach? Obviously Pat Riley and Dwyane Wade believe that Spoelstra is an excellent coach – otherwise, why would they have decided to retain him for this season. But how have we seen LeBron respond to coaching in his career? Has he become a significantly better player in any respect, than he was in his first few years? We’ve seen Derrick Rose grow before our eyes and enter the MVP conversation because he allows himself to be coached. Does LeBron allow himself to be coached, thereby enabling his coach to put the team as a whole in the best position to win? Or does LeBron just check his own stats?

#2 – Do I think the Bulls would have a worse record with LeBron instead of Rose? It’s quite possible. Why? On offense, who would distribute the ball? They’d have CJ Watson and Keith Bogans in the backcourt, maybe Ronnie Brewer instead of Bogans (but then who would play with the 2nd team?). Fantastic. And LeBron would take all the minutes from Luol Deng (who would no longer be on the team), and Kyle Korver. So the Bulls front line would be formidable, but Lebron would be replacing the Bulls 2nd-best player in Deng, while the Bulls backcourt would be a disaster.

Meanwhile, would LeBron fully buy into Thibs defense, and being a defensive stopper, as both Rose has at the PG position and Deng has at the 3? Maybe, maybe not.

#1 – Just because LeBron is ‘on a different tier’, doesn’t mean that he is more valuable to his team, or that Rose isn’t deserving of the MVP. Your particular opinion of this stratification really has no particular bearing or merit in this discussion. LeBron is also playing WITH another legend, according to you, in Wade, while Rose has nobody near that level on his team. Therefore, one can easily argue that Rose is MORE valuable to the Bulls, because the Heat have ANOTHER legend on their ballclub.

And one general point to make about your overall article and perceptions of the subject is about your continual use of the word ‘expectations’. Because Derrick Rose is performing above ‘expectations’, you believe that everyone wants to give him the award, and the Heat haven’t been as good as people’s ‘expectations’.

Yet you throw around the word ‘Legend’ with LeBron, as if he has already fulfilled ‘expectations’ in his career. Well, to put it bluntly, he hasn’t. He can fill all the stat sheets from here to Timbuktu, but LeBron has fallen far short of expectations. The expectation by most is that he would have won an NBA title already.

LeBron has not performed up to expectations in any place but a two-dimensional box score. He hasn’t won the big one, he hasn’t been clutch, he hasn’t even been a particularly good teammate, as we now know from his time in Cleveland and on the USA basketball team. Read the articles about LeBron throwing food back at a world-renowned chef barking that it isn’t cooked right, about LeBron treating team and stadium workers like crap, about how Jerry Colangelo and Coach K were surprised at the selfishness and obvious sense of entitlement that LeBron exhibited during his time with Team USA (contrasted with Wade’s obvious politeness, humility and sense of respect for others).

Then read about the same group of folks loving this last Team USA (Durant, Rose, Westbrook, etc) and how they would like to continue coaching these young guns in the future.

In the end, one reason that Rose will win the MVP is not only that he is a great player, on a winning team, with great statistics, is that everyone who votes on the award can sense that he’s simply a nice, humble guy, who loves to improve his game AND to win in the team context, while LeBron is a selfish mofo who cares about the box score as much as the final score and the outcome of a playoff series. There, I said it.

I’ve just finished reading this blog and I have to say. Posts by “WHATEVER” made the most sense to me by far. I like how articulate you are at arguing weaknesses/strengths of different players and dissecting contradictory statements by others. =)..And this is coming from a stranger

WHATEVER — I’m not sure if you’re intentionally ignoring the points I am making, or just choosing to argue with yourself, but let me go through this again:

#6 — I don’t understand any of these points. (1) the Heat haven’t had Haslem most of the year, so yes, they effectively had 3 reliable players for most of the year, (2) the Bulls have more than 4 dependable players, (3) they returned their 3 most important starters (i.e., this wasn’t a new team). If you need further stats to back this up, I’m happy to provide. Lebron’s plus minus ratio is FAR better than Rose’s (in fact, by most different ways of looking at plus minus, Lebron is in the top 1-2 in the league). If you need back up for this, go here: http://www.nba.com/hoop/lowpost/the_plusminus_allnba_teams_2011_03_14.html . What does this tell us? It tells us two things: (1) when Lebron was on the court he had a tremendous impact and (2) when he was off the court, he team was relatively weak. On the other hand, it also reflects that Rose had a strong team and bench around him.

#5 – Again, another argument I’m not understanding. I never said stats should be the sole arbiter of the MVP, but how can you completely throw them out as a factor?? This, honestly, makes no sense. Of course they are a factor and need to be considered in the larger scheme of things.

#4 — when did I say Rose was a poor defender? In fact, I said his defense was much improved this year. All I said was that Lebron was better, and I have yet to see anyone come up with a credible case disputing it (and please don’t tell me it’s because the Bulls have the #1 team defense) If you don’t believe me, just ask the NBA coaches who have voted Lebron 1st TEAM ALL NBA DEFENSE the last 2 years.

#3 — Seriously? Did you see what Lebron did for Mike Brown? Do you really think the Cavs team that Lebron was on should have had the NBA’s best record the last 2 years? You’ve gotta be kidding. Is Rose responsible for Deng’s vast improvement on the defensive end as well?

#2 — ok, let me ask the question another way. As a Bulls fan, do you think your team has a better chance to win the title next year with Rose instead of Lebron, i.e., if I offered you that trade, would you turn it down?

#1 — If you think Lebron has underperformed expectations, you may be watching less basketball than I think. He took a Cavs team a few years ago to the Finals that had NO BUSINESS being anywhere close. He finished with the best record in the NBA the last 2 years, again, with questionable talent. There is no doubt Boston had better talent than the Cavs last year, Lebron overachieved during the regular season. The major disappointment in Lebron’s career actually isn’t that he’s underachieved, it’s that he hasn’t overachieved ENOUGH. You don’t think if Lebron had Kobe’s talent around him, he wouldn’t have won a ring already?

In terms of who is more valuable — I can point to a similar W-L record, Lebron’s superior offensive stats in almost every category, his better defense, better PER and his better plus minus ratio all as evidence.

I understand your points but, as I quite clearly wrote above – they can either be used for Derrick Rose as well, or they are so hypothetical as to be meaningless.

#6. So LeBron has shitty teammates? There are ‘only’ three players on the Heat and they have an ‘inexperienced’ coach? Really? According to you, one of his teammates is also a ‘Legend’. And Chris Bosh is not chopped liver. (Well, actually, he is, but he puts up good stats too.)

The Bulls have vastly outperformed expectations, with a young team and a rookie head coach. And 7 or their 12 players are new to the team and the system. Rose has carried them for much of the year.

So the Heat and Bulls have BOTH outperformed any expectations that can be considered realistic.

I know all about +/- stats, including their positives and their negatives….which leads me to point 5.

#5. Once again, you beat a dead horse by stating that LeBron’s stats are better. And once again, I say ‘So What?’ Should stats be thrown out the window? No. Here’s one: Derrick Rose is the only player in the NBA in the top 10 in points and assists. What’s my point? Derrick Rose ALSO HAS GREAT STATS. Duh. So is it your contention that the MVP should ONLY go to the player with ‘the best’ stats as deemed by you? Certainly you aren’t that full of yourself, right? So here’s my point: Derrick Rose’s stats are WITHOUT DOUBT good enough to warrant him being discussed for the MVP award. I’m not trying to argue that Keith Bogans should win MVP, for goodness sake. The best? No. One of the best? Certainly. Now can we put the stats-based discussion in the trash where it belongs? It’s not an award based ONLY on stats.

#4 – Yes, LeBron is a better defender. Is that now the criteria for awarding the MVP? Is LeBron the best defender in the NBA? Derrick Rose is a solid, if not already great defender (according to some in the know), and Derrick Rose’s defense is cetainly NOT a liability in selecting him as MVP, especially considering how he dominated players like CP3, DWill, and Tony Parker after the All-Star break.

[By the way, the 'chase-down block' is not a 'signature move' of LeBron. I watched MJ and Scottie Pippen do this more time that I could count, back when LeBron was still a spoiled little shit needing baby wipes.]

#3 – Now you didn’t answer my question. Is their any particular facet of LeBron’s game that has vastly improved since he entered the NBA? Has he proven himself to be a coachable player? I can simply point to DRose’s vast improvement on defense under Thibs, as evidence that Rose tries to make his coach successful just as much as his coach tries to make him successful. What evidence do you have that LeBron is learning from his coaches, and trying to make them as successful at their trade as he is at his own?

#2 – Once again – Moot. So hypothetical as to be meaningless. “ok, let me ask the question another way. As a Bulls fan, do you think your team has a better chance to win the title next year with Rose instead of Lebron, i.e., if I offered you that trade, would you turn it down?”

Ask me after this season. If the Bulls beat the Heat in the playoffs, or even win the Championship, wouldn’t I be totally fucking stupid to say ‘Yes, please!’?

Maybe Derrick Rose will become an even bigger star than LeBron? Maybe the Bulls will win the NBA Championship this year, and continue to deny LeBron the title in the same way that MJ denied Karl Malone and Charles Barkley?

As a side note, Dwyane Wade would be no worse off playing with DRose, and Chris Bosh would immediately become the Chris Bosh of old, and not the current shadow of his old self. Rose would be feeding Bosh the ball exactly where he is most effective with it, rather than Bosh and LeBron essentially trying to play in exactly the same spots on the floor. Meanwhile, Luol Deng would become completely useless to the Bulls after a LeBron trade, and he would have to be moved to try to find the Bulls another PG to distribute the ball to their excellent front-line.

So there’s a case to be made, because the difference between LeBron and Luol Deng is much less than that between Derrick Rose and Mario Chalmers (or Mike Bibby), that the Heat wouldn’t be much worse off after this trade, nor would the Bulls be that much better – and certainly not as much better as you seem to believe.

#1 – If LeBron has quit ONCE on the floor, he has underachieved. I never saw MJ quit on his team nor his coach A SINGLE TIME. Nor have I seen DRose quit to this point. There is not quit in them, they’re all fight.

So you think that LeBron’s main fault is that he hasn’t overachieved enough? Well, he’ll have to keep trying. Dwyane Wade is the oldest 29-year-old in the history of the NBA, Chris Bosh is a wet noodle, and Eric Spoelstra is a deer in the headlights with Riley breathing down his neck. When Wade continues to break down next year, and beyond, and the new CBA prohibits the Heat from acquiring anything more than a middling veteran each year, and no coach worth his salt will voluntarily put himself into that pressure-cooker (or guillotine) of the Heatles, we’ll again see LeBron’s true colors. A selfish, egotistical, self-entitled individual, in the true sense of the word.

I notice that you completely skipped over my criticisms of LeBron’s personality and coachability, as reported from the perspective of basketball minds such as Coach K and Jerry Colangelo. You would have to, if you’re such a big LeBron backer, now wouldn’t you?

If LeBron had Kobe’s talent around him, he would therefore also have Phil Jackson as a head coach – and then we’d finally see LeBron put in his place by a coach who wouldn’t put up with his self-obsessive bullshit, or we’d see LeBron traded by the Lakers to build the next Lakers dynasty.

Actually “Whatever”…MJ quit on his team right before the season began to go play baseball. And stop being ignorant and trying to attack LBJ personally. You can point out all of the LBJ “Dick Riders” as you allow the media to put Rose’s dick in your mouth. LBJ took a mediocre team farther than imaginable the last few years with an average. Although im admitting LBJ does not deserve MVP, im tired of Rode dick riders trying to attack LBJ fans. Congratulations for having ONE decent year. But want to point out LBJ’s failures? Lets point out how the Bulls have only made it out of the first round once since MJ. Chicago fans are stupid and ignorant and super annoying. Da Bulls, Da Bears. shut the hell up. Look at the Cavs without LBJ, that should be the greatest reason for LBJ to win, or even Dwight is better than Rose. Fucking media bandwagoning bullshitters.

Come on Whatever… stop portraying Lebron as a bad guy. If D-Rose is such a “coachable” guy, maybe he should’ve gotten an sat tutor instead of getting someone else to do it for him! Doesn’t that indicate that he is also a “selfish mofo”? He doesn’t even want to put in the hard work to actually get the right results. Doesn’t that sound like a self entitled guy?

Alright, enough of my D-Rose rant.

Admittedly he has done well, but not to the point where he deserves MVP. An MVP is as you have correctly pointed out, the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, and it is clearly apparent that Lebron is the MVP. How many games have the Heat improved by with his presence? How many games has the Cavs improved by? Do you actually think that D-Rose could’ve done better than Lebron in Cleveland or Miami? D-Rose wouldn’t even be the alpha dog. And besides… your argument about Deng having no position is moot. Please… Chicago would not only give up D-Rose for Lebron… but also add in Deng!

—Whatever
your statement “he doesn’t face the same level of athleticism at his position as DRose does at PG” just proved even more why LJ should be the MVP..no crap he dosent face people at his position that are as good as him, because thats how could he is, he is the only player in the league who could even come close to playing any of the 5 spots in the starting line up..get a grip and face the facts..what even makes this argument more intriguing, is that he is the MVP race while playing on the same team as another mega-star as himself,LJ is the most valueable person in the NBA by far (factoring in his age), although i root against the heat, and think LJ is a coward, he is by far the best player in the league, has been for the past 5 years, and will be for the next 5 years, take away all the stats, coaching, and role players, LJ has the rawest talent and athleticism in sports…

6. Comparing having your Haslem and Miller out to having Boozer and Noah out is ridiculous. Granted the Heat have had to deal with injuries this season too, but you can’t argue that the Bulls injuries haven’t been to more important players. And as mentioned, Lebron still has one of the top 3 players in the league on his team in Wade with basically the same stat line aside from assists(who also has higher defensive stats in blocks and steals). They can not win 60 games this year even though they have the 23rd rank strength of schedule so I’d say that their record may over rate their performance a little bit. Granted the Bulls are ranked 27th on SOS but they also can reach 60+ wins this season and are first in the East.

5. It’s tough to use the stat argument considering it could have also been used against Lebron in the past.

Lebron 08-09
28.4 pts 7.6 rbds 7.2 asts. 1.1 blks 2.2 stls .484 fg%

Dwade 08-09
30.2 pts 5 rbds 7.5 asts 1.3 blks 2.2 stls .491 fg%

However, that year the Cavs went 66-16 and the Heat went 43-39. Although Dwade had better stats leading Lebron in every major category but rebounds, Lebron won it because his team was doing better. Often times MVP is given to just the best player on the best team because the intangible winning stat is really important.

One of my favorite stats about that Dwade year is that the 07-08 year is when Dwade hurt his shoulder. That year they went 15-67. He played in 28 more games that 08-09 season then he did in 07-08. In other words in every 1 more game he played for that 08-09 team they got 1 more win that year.

4. I would argue that Rose does go up against more athletic players than Lebron does. And you can’t discount that his team is the #1 defensive team in the league. Granted a lot of that goes to the coach but if you have 1 hole in your defense it will be exploited. He plays his part, arguably the most important part, on the #1 defense in the league.

3. Thibs is not out on the court. I never like the coach argument because it’s always the players who have to get out there and perform. Granted a coach can make a huge difference in preparing players for the game, but ultimately the players have to perform.

2. I think whatever’s point was that you can’t use this argument because Rose and Lebron are on their respective teams with their respective team mates because of their off season. Had Lebron gone to Chicago the same players would probably not be there. And speculation as to how well the other player would do on the same team is also not criteria for MVP.

1. This point is also ridiculous for many reasons. First of all the players named are considered Legends because they all share one thing in common that Lebron does not share with them-they’ve won championships and multiple ones at that. Also, even if Lebron is a legend, MVP is a year by year award given out, so just because he is labeled a legend doesn’t mean he automatically deserves the award just for stepping on the court. Kobe was mentioned as one of these legends but he’s only won the award once. And Rose may not be the best player at his position, but he is this year which is why he is being slated as the ’10-’11 MVP.

* Stats become relevant in an MVP discussion when the records of the teams are as close as they’ve been between the Heat and the Bulls. In the example you cite, there was a 23 game difference between the Cavs and the Heat. An additional stat I’ll throw out is that Lebron’s +/- ratio is MUCH better than Rose’s, which partially demonstrates Lebron’s bench was much weaker than Rose’s.

* Still not seeing how your team being #1 defensively directly correlates to you being a great defensive player. Was Toni Kukoc a great defensive player on the championship Bulls teams? Lebron is able to guard positions #1-4, so not sure how your athleticism argument holds up either.

* Players have to perform, but you’re telling me there’s no correlation between good teams and good coaches?

* The switching players argument is not a criteria for an MVP, but it is indicative of value to a team, i.e., by me establishing that Lebron would have had the same or better record with the Bulls as Rose, suggests that Lebron is at least as valuable as Rose.

* Finally, as I stated earlier, when I refer to Lebron as a “legend”, what I’m saying is that he is on a completely different *tier* than Rose. Rose’s best day for the most part equals an average day at the office for Lebron. We are so enamored with Rose right now because he is exceeding all of our expectations (whereas Lebron is perhaps just meeting them)

First off, I respect your viewpoints and your ability to share them and disagree with others without having a sense of superiority. However, I do disagree with your points.

-Stats are definitely relevant in the MVP discussion, I was just saying that stats are not the only deciding factor. In the recent past it has been obvious that they’re not the only deciding factor with Kobe winning it over Lebron, Nash winning over Kobe and honestly Lebron winning his first over Wade(although I feel like this was the most agreeable one out of the 3 I mentioned considering the wins difference).

-I believe that if you are a part of the #1 defensive team in the league(even after your best defender is out for half of the year) then you are a respectable defender. Especially when you go up against some of the greatest players in the game like we mentioned above. Also take a look at Whatever’s link on Rose and his defense. Lebron is a good defender, but Rose is as well.

-There is definitely a correlation between good coaches and good players. Same as there is a correlation between coaches and whether or not their players are coachable. I could question Lebron’s coachability. I think this has been many star’s problems in the past(AI comes to mind first and his belief that skipping practices wouldn’t hurt his skill). And some examples of this may have been pointed out in posts already. Therefore, I wouldn’t necessarily hold Rose’s coach against him, because maybe he’s allowing himself to be coached. As someone else mentioned, Spoelstra must be a decent coach if Wade and Riley have faith in him. And was Phil Jackson ever used against Jordan or Kobe?

-Once against this can not be an argument because it is completely speculative. By using this argument you are assuming that each player will have the same output as they do at this state in time on the other team. And that those team mates would play at the same level with the other player. Discounting that possibly Rose or Lebron may make some of their team mates better.

-I understand what you are saying here but I feel that you might be discounting that Rose might be jumping to that level. I could easily see Rose being a legend one day, and I think that he is playing at that level right now. Just because he has not done it consistently(over a few years) does not mean he doesn’t deserve an award given out every year for that respective year.

so your saying malone, stockton, AI, Barkley, T-Mac and many more aren’t legendary or of that caliber? That is crazy. Plus sayin comparing haslem and miller to noah and boozer isnt fair because they r better players is stupid since they both play the same importance and roles on the team as the best supporters to the stars. They may not be better but they are of the same importance. Also, lebron can lockdown any player at any position while rose can not even handlethe pg position. And your coach argument sucks when you see teams like LA and San Antonio are consistently good every year. finally stats are the most important. It isnt MVP of your team, its MVP of the league; AKA best player in the league. So, stats are definitely the most important because it shows how you played the whole year. STATS DONT LIE!!

That’s the biggest myth about DRose, that he is a liability on defense. Go back and watch the games between Feb 9-24, when he outplayed Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, and beat the Heat in a 5-game stretch. There was no doubt that Rose was the best PG on the floor throughout these games. Against San Antonio he had more points, assists, and rebounds than Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili COMBINED, with only one turnover.

Or, if you don’t want to take the time to watch games to actually educate yourself, you can do the ‘Cliff Notes’ version with the following article (which was written BEFORE the stretch of games where he bettered the best PGs in the game):

Bottom line: DRose certainly CAN handle the PG position on defense, against the best PGs in the game, and this is only his first year under a truly defensive mind – with Vinny Del Negro on John Calipari providing his only coaching since high school.

From the article which I referenced above, the “Off The Dribble” blog from the NY Times:

“More outstanding yet are Rose’s individual defensive numbers. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rose has allowed just 0.77 points per possession overall on defense this season, an elite mark for any defender, regardless of position. Chris Paul (0.86 points per possession allowed), Rajon Rondo (0.83 PPP allowed), and Russell Westbrook (0.92 PPP allowed) –- all excellent defenders -– have been trumped statistically this year, and by no slim margin. Rose has each of those players handily beat, and boasts a shockingly comprehensive defensive profile.”

Maybe you’re right – stats don’t lie! And according to the stats provided by Synergy Sports – you are dead wrong.

So let’s be clear — are you saying that Rose is a better defender than Lebron? If you could pick one on a single possession to shut down the best players in the league (Kobe, Wade, etc.), who would you take?

Your comment here is not only specious, but your question is disingenuous. As I’ve explained in my response above, while LeBron may be a stud defender, Rose has improved his defense logarithmically since entering the NBA. He is no longer a bad defender nor a weakness on defense, and the nature of defensive play necessary from a PG is entirely different than a SF.

Your question is disingenuous because you cherry-picked your own parameters by choosing Kobe and DWade as the ‘best’ players in the NBA, even though they play a position that DRose would never naturally guard on defense.

Kobe and Wade both play a position (SG) where the average player is physically larger than Rose’s position (SG). So of course a SF like LeBron would have better success ‘bodying-up’ a smaller player. What if I contended that Tim Duncan is a better defender than LeBron because he can better defend Dwight Howard or Dirk Nowitzki than LeBron can?

It’s just like your comparison of the two players changing teams – it’s mental masturbation. What’s the definition of ‘moot’? So hypothetical as to be meaningless.

Sure, in your imaginary world where Derrick Rose must guard Kobe Bryant at the end of the game, and LeBron would be on the Bulls yet the Bulls would still receive 100% of the offensive and defensive production of Luol Deng, LeBron would likely be better. But in that world, unicorns also roam the sidelines as cheerleaders and rainbows magically appear after every successful 3-pointer by the home team.

In the real, non-hypothetical, non-moot world where NBA basketball is played, Ronnie Brewer or Luol Deng would be guarding Wade or Kobe, because Tommy Thibs would be fucking insane to put Rose on defense against players who are not only physically bigger but who play a different position – just as Phil Jackson famously had Scottie Pippen defend Magic in the Finals rather than John Paxson – it’s the better match-up.

Who would I rather have guarding Kobe or Wade? LeBron.

Who would I rather have guarding CP3, Rondo, or Steve Nash? Rose.

Who would I rather have guarding Dirk Nowitzki or Dwight Howard? Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett.

If you stick with the REAL world, your arguments will likely go much farther.

Did you just say stats don’t lie? Seriously? Stats lie all of the time are you kidding. Simple example, scoring averages can be based on hundreds of factors such is that player is on a offense oriented team, is that player the primary scorer or does he have help from multiple players, is that player drawing constant double and triple teams or is he free to roam. Hundreds. You give me a stat, and I could come up with factors that affect that stat. You know the old Mark Twain saying, “Figures lie but liars figure”. It is so true. Stat geeks crack me up they are so caught up in their sheets they forget to use the old eye test.

No I didn’t say that others are not legendary also, I was just pointing out it’s funny that everyone he named is a multiple champion. However, it’s tough to argue that those players mentioned in the article aren’t considered greater than the ones you mentioned. And I believe that that reason is because they are actual Champions. Don’t get me wrong the ones you named are HOFers but they’re also remembered for not ever being able to win it all almost as much as they are for what they did. AI will always be remembered for not being the Answer. Malone and Stockton for not being able to beat Jordan. Barkley even after chasing on 3 teams. And T-Mac(for whatever reason you put him in here) for not even making it out of first round.

And no my argument that comparing the different injuries is unfair is not stupid. Under your logic, if Dwade and Bosh were hurt it would be just like Boozer and Bogans being hurt for the Bulls. The injuries to the Bulls were Stars, while the injuries to the Heat are washed up veterans chasing after a championship. Since you believe stats are the most important factor, the injuries to the Bulls are obviously more important based off stats alone. Way to have back to back conflicting arguments.

And no, Lebron cannot lock down any player at any position, that’s why Millsap dropped 46 against them. He’s a good defender but to say he’s lockdown is laughable.

LA and San Antonio have been consistently good because of their core players. Remember the woes LA had after Shaq left, even though they still had their coach.

I’m just pointing out that these arguments are stupid. They lost their “glue guy” and have went 43-18 since. They were 8-5 with him so obviously he wasn’t that important. The two guys for the Heat that they mention have a combined average of 13.7 pts 12.7 rebounds and 1.8 assists. Boozer and Noah are a combined 29.8 pts 20.4 rebounds and 4.4 assists. So no they have not been unfairly criticized. Just because it’s more impressive what Rose has done shouldn’t be considered a smack in the face to Lebron. Granted Lebron’s stats are better than Rose’s in most categories, but not much better. And once again Rose’s stats translate into wins, and possibly home court advantage. Comparative defense is also arguable. Coaching situation may be true in Rose’s case but since when should having a good coach be used against you? How can you argue that the respective player would do better on the other’s team when that is pure speculative, and can not be used in an argument for MVP voting. And the last argument is irrelevant when you compare Lebron over his career to Rose this season. Lebron will be a HOFer but not for this single season. To say that Lebron should get MVP because he is a legend is a ridiculous argument. Rose could possibly be a legend, and based on the events of this season is MVP this year. Why is it so hard to imagine someone other than Lebron being the most valuable person in the league?

I cannot imagine any knowledgeable NBA/basketball fan read your article and think that all six of your points are true and applicable to a most valuable award argument.

So we know you are trying to explain why LeBron is more valuable than Rose “…we would vote for Rose over Lebron for much the same reasons…”, and yet you remain inconsistent and full of hypotheticals in your points.

Point 6 is that LeBron’s team record should not be a detractor from his award campaign and yet you say, “While what Rose and the Bulls have done has been impressive this year…” So you are saying let’s disregard the more impressive play and give credit to LeBron for the Heat not losing more games? Can’t you also credit Rose for the Bulls not losing more games?

Point 5 is the most shallow argument of your article. You state the data but perform no analysis. The reason that LeBron has higher numbers is that the majority of the time he dominates the offensive possessions for the Heat just as he did in Cleveland. He plays Cleveland ball for the Heat; he holds on to the ball as the shot clock winds down waiting for the opportunity that HE can make the play, but if that opportunity does not show up and the shot clock winds down he forces a play to the basket, a shot, or a pass. Evidence of Cleveland ball is seen during the close games the Heat have played in which LeBron has dominated the ball at the end. The heat have the same results that Cleveland did, just as LeBron played the same way as he did in Cleveland. The system LeBron follows is himself, where as Thibodeau has a system in place for the Bulls that all the players follow.

The inablility for LeBron to follow the offensive system is a clear indicator that if he were on the Bulls they probably would not do better. There is no evidence to prove your argument. But at least some conclusions can be made based on LeBron’s basketball mindset. And that is he DOES NOT like to follow a set system, where as the Bulls team makes good use of both their system.

And finally the worst argument I have ever seen is your point #1. You yourself say, “…as long as he wins a couple of rings..” So in fact you do not think Lebron is not a legend yet, but you are ready to say he is based on potential. You base LeBron being a legend on hypotheticals, empty statistics, and hype, instead of skills and will to win. But what if due to his inadequacies of the game, only some of which that have been stated, lead him to finish his career with no rings. And, what if Rose wins three or more rings. Then who is the legend? And do you see what I did? I debunked your hypothetical argument #1 with a hypothetical of my own. That is why you CAN NOT use hypothetical arguments to prove a point.

#4 — so please clarify this. Are you saying Rose is a better defender than Lebron?

#1 — in retrospect, I probably should have made this point clearer. By legend, what I meant is that Lebron is clearly operating on a different level than Rose (a level really only occupied by Kobe and Wade). We hype Rose so much because he is performing so far beyond our expectations. You can’t really compare the two. It would be like comparing… Malone and Jordan.

“Merely saying Lebron gets banged up way to much considering the Heat will probably win around 57 games.” So we should give props to LeBron because the Heat can win 57 games? Well alot of people (by people I mean NBA reporters) are giving even more props to Rose for winning the Bulls winning more games than the Heat(potentially). Especially considering alot of these people were saying that the Heat were going to win the East with relative ease.

Well I am not going to argue against Rose dominating the ball, but my point is more about playing in the system. When the Heat lost those 5 close games in a row and through the other games that they lost one thing was clear, the ball stayed in LeBron’s hands and did not lead to much success. But the big game that the Heat won against the Lakers, which snapped their losing streak, and the following games they won had a common trait; the ball was in Dwayne Wade’s hands, especially in pressure situations. These games made it seem that the Heat have changed and grown from their losing ways, and it was Wade that made the offense more dyanmic, not LeBron’s Cleveland ball. This is the evidence against LeBron’s style of play. This is what reporters and everyone else were thinking about when the Heat snapped their streak.

Rose on the other hand has avoided questions if the team might be better served with the ball in one of his teammates hands. His strong play and decision making have left no questions about Thibodeau running his system around Rose. But these questions arose around LeBron and Spoelstra was criticized for the poor Heat offense. It is not a matter of LeBron not being valuable; obviously he is. But there is evidence pointing to the team performing better with Wade in the leading role.

The +/- ratio requires alot of interpretation. For example you cannot compare the +/- total or even per game between LeBron and Kobe considering LeBron plays way more minutes per game. Then +/- per min has to be considered. Also, +/- also depends on rotation. Lets not forget 4 celtics being in the top 4 of the +/- stat, and Mo Williams and Ilgauskas having higher +/_ ratio than James in 09.

I am not saying Rose is a good defender. I am saying that LeBron is a not a good defender either, and comparing defense proves nothing.

And can you explain to me how LeBron is clearly playing at different level than Rose. And please do not use shallow statistics, rather use in depth reasoning, telling me what the statistics imply. Prove to me you are better at understanding the game than repeating numbers.

Could Rose only being in his third year and only showing off the beginning of his greatness? If Rose were to win a few championships and LeBron were to win none, would that make Rose more like Jordan and LeBron more of Malone?

Brown Mamba, i agree with your statements. We expect LeBron to be playing at such a high level each game… all the while Rose was not playing this well last season hence he is being blown up by media standard.

I think everyone is tired of reading how great LeBron is… the media love to put who ever is on top back down… its their way of give and take… a way to stay “in control” if you will and (most) people just jump on the band wagon as quickly as they jump off.

what factors have made Rose play this well? coach and new additions to the team plus his will to want to play better basketball?

Sorry Mamba, but I think that you may have jumped the shark a bit on this one. In general, I actually agree with your premise and think that Lebron has a very, very strong case for MVP, even though he will not win. However, your rationale, particularly your #1 reason is very flawed.

You are correct in the fact that every single MVP ever awarded since 1956 has been awarded to a future Hall of Famer – every single one, no exception. However, the operative word here is “future”. Whether Lebron James is an established legend or not is really irrelevant. The point is that Derrick Rose is only 22 years old and in 5-10 years will likely be recognized as legend in his own right.

In 1977, Bill walton won the award in only his 4th year. In 1988, Jordan won in only his 3rd full season. And in 1971, Kareem won the MVP in only his SECOND year. The point here is that each of them won well before they were established legends and Rose needs to be afforded the same leeway, particularly since there is no reason to believe that he will not achieve legendary status in the future.

Regarding point #6, the readers are right. The Bulls started slow, with injuries and numerous new roles players.

However, I do agree with your point about Thibs. The more I observe games, the more I have begun to believe that the Bulls success is more attributed to Thibs than Rose. Rose is shooting 44% this year and the Bulls defense has allowed him to take more “chances” or opportuntities than Lebron. Moreover, the true lack of a defined #1 on Miami has hurt Lebron, Wade, and the team overall.

I think that your other points are trying to highlight one common theme – “Lebron is the best player in the game, and the best player should win the MVP”. Maybe, maybe not – but scoring 25+ points and having a TS% of nearly 60% is not only extremely rare, but entering into Michael Jordan territory which merits strong, strong consideration.

Realist, the only thing I may have jumped on, was the hearts of eager “Derrick Rose is the heir apparent” fans.

Addressing your point #1: Clearly I needed more explanation here. My real point here was that comparing Lebron and Rose is kind of like comparing a Rolls and Mercedes. Rose on his best day could probably only match Lebron’s numbers on average. We make a big deal out of him because’s he surpassed expectations, but really, if Lebron had started the season out with the same expectations as Rose, wouldn’t we be doing the same with him? The problem is, and you should know this better than anyone as a Bulls fan, we are BORED with Lebron’s greatness. He could (and perhaps should) win the MVP every year. Now his ability to close during playoff time. .that’s another story all together.

Regarding point #6: what Rose has done this year (with Thibs’ help) has been great. But let’s not make it seems that much greater than what the Heat have done than it is. .

Do your research dude. If you take away the 9-8 start the bulls have a better record still. The bulls also added new pieces and have had to deal with more injuries. mike miller is the wort 6th man in the league who cares he was out.

There are enough points and counterpoints to not get into many specific. But, I’ll say a few things. Thibs is a great defensive coach, but the Bulls ranked 4th overall last year and has been ranked in the top 10 for several years in a row. To say that Rose is the worst defender in they system is not very astute. Anyone that watches Bulls basketball know that Boozer plays absolutely no defense. I don’t know how many Bulls games that you’ve watched, but Rose is far from a slouch on defense.

The point of LeBron scoring more than Rose is as simple as Rose getting the foul calls he deserve. And that’s simple getting one more shooting foul per game (that he clearly deserves as he gets fewer calls than most players at his level). And the fact that LeBron doesn’t face doubleteams while Rose frequently faces doubleteams lends itself to efficiency stats and scoring. Playing with a “legend” and perrenial all-star has that effect on defenses.

In a nutshell, arguments for or against Rose and LeBron can go back and forth and will be meaningless. Rose has all but sewn up the MVP award and LeBron removed himself from consideration this year by becoming a “Heatle” and not living up to expectations. That has nothing to do with fans, but the voting media.

At best, that’s pure speculation, at worst, you’re being willfully ignorant. This debate is by nature opinion-based and open to interpretation of facts. The author has not been “owned”. People have disagreed with him while proving absolutely nothing. That’s not “owning”. Unless you mean that he was at one point actually owned by another person… which would be legally and ethically dubious at best.

Ben — thanks for the back up here. I would admit if I felt like I saw a good argument here to change my mind, but thus far, I haven’t. I still maintain if people had entered the season with the SAME expectations for both Rose and Lebron, than we would probably be seeing a different outcome in the MVP race.

Instead, people had (1) such bitterness towards Lebron and (2) such unrealistic expectations for the Heat, that he was only bound to disappoint. With the Lakers (sadly) looking like they might be bounced out of the playoffs, all of a sudden the Heat look like the odds-on favorite to win it all.

Only thing you have to ask yourself. Between LeBron and Rose, which player has his team playing to the highest level they are capable of playing on a consistent basis? Pretty simple. We ‘witnessed’ failure after failure by LeBron and his team has failed to perform well against the elite teams. 3-9 against the top 5. We ‘witnessed’ a 1-18 shooting slump by the Heat with game winning or tying shots in the final seconds. LeBron took the majority of those shots. Shouldn’t an MVP candidate put his team on his shoulders and hit at least a few of those shots. You can say that the Heat have had to overcome some injuries but it really pales in comparsion to what Rose has had to deal with this year. I don’t really see how anyone could think LeBron deserves the MVP, he has been good statistically, but he has been average at best in making his team the best they can be. If you were grading the Heat’s season so far I would give them a solid C+ to B-. I you were grading the Bulls season is there any doubt an A to A+. I think Kobe and Howard have a better argument than LeBron. The more I look at it and see the results of the season, I don’t even think it’s close.

Mikey — this is the issue as I see it, your “expectations” have caused you to rate Lebron and the Heat’s season a C+, and the Bulls an A+, but this is a trap that most people fall into — which is we become immune to great performances by great players. Here are the facts as I see them:

* Lebron means more to his team as evidenced by the large differential in plus minus ratios between Lebron and Rose

* This is further evidenced by 82games.com stats showing that Lebron is more efficient than Rose in the clutch (despite whatever game winning percentages people want to throw out) and his offensive stats are significantly superior to Rose’s (and it’s generally accepted he’s a better defensive player as well — this is backed up by the fact that NBA head coaches have voted him to the all-defensive team 2 years in a row)

* Tom Thibodeau is a better coach than Erik Spoelstra. This is manifested in the jump in defensive performance by many Bulls players. A lot of the credit for the Bulls overachievement this year must be given to the coach imo. While the Heat have succeeded to an extent despite Spoelstra.

* This last point, is a new and more subtle one. The Bulls are a better constructed team than the Heat. People know their roles and where they fit. This is not a knock on Lebron (but perhaps one on Riley). The Heat were built around 3 guys that need the ball in their hands all the time. Bosh has been a much less effective player than anticipated, and the Heat bench has been incredibly weak. So, while it is en vogue to rave about the talent of the top 3, the way this team was constructed, there was never going to be a scenario where this team was going to win 63+ games this year.

The problem as I see it has to do with perception vs. reality. And that is why Rose will win the MVP this year (and for the record, the same perception difference was why Malone won the MVP over Jordan back in 1997)

* Plus-minus ratio: Essentially what you are saying is that LeBron deserves the award because his teammates suck so badly. LeBron’s +/- ratio has nothing to do with Rose’s +/- ratio. LeBron’s +/- ratio is only related to his teammates, and Rose’s to his teammates. So, because LeBron has shitty teammates outside of Wade, he deserves the MVP? Bad argument, dude.

* LeBron is more efficient in the ‘clutch’? Is that why the Heat were 1-18 in the last few seconds as late as a month ago? And newflash for you: ALL 48 MINUTES ARE IMPORTANT. If you’re clutch in the first 46 minutes, it’s equally as important as being clutch in the last 2 minutes, right? Right.

Furthermore, it’s been documented that Rose has at least 20 three-point ‘heaves’ in the last second of a quarter, half, or game, that significantly lower his efficiency. But Rose doesn’t care about his stats – he only cares about winning – so throwing up a last-second shot with almost no possibility of going in is not an issue for him.

* LeBron should win MVP because Tom Thibodeau is better than Eric Spoestra? Well, then I suppose LeBron should play for a girl’s junior-high coach next season, so he can solidify the MVP award by playing for an absolutely horrible coach. You’re grasping at straws here.

Furthermore, the Bulls were #3 in the NBA in opponents FG % (.442), prior to being #1 this season (.429). So the Bulls were obviously quite excellent in defense under Vinnie Del Negro, and your claims of the ‘jump in defensive performance by many Bulls players’ doesn’t hold water. The Bulls have always been solid defensively.

* “This last point, is a new and more subtle one. The Bulls are a better constructed team than the Heat.” The only reason that you need a new point is that all of your other points have been thoroughly repudiated. And it’s not really new, nor subtle. It’s simply a desperate reconfiguration of your +/- argument combined with your ‘Thibs is better than Spoelstra’ argument. Once again, you are stating that LeBron deserves the MVP because his teammates suck so badly. By that logic, couldn’t we award the MVP to Kevin Love, or any other statistical marvel on a shitty ballclub?

Why not trust your hero? “I think [it's] Derrick Rose,” James said before the Heat’s game Wednesday night against the Washington Wizards. “What he’s done for that team, with all the injuries they have and them being first in the Eastern Conference — they’re playing some really good basketball.”

LeBron admitted that he and Wade likely took themselves out of MVP contention when they decided to play together along with Bosh. Maybe you should do the same?

Mamba, you say I’m letting my expectations get in the way of making a grade on the overall season by a particular team? It’s not expectations when you see a player of LeBron’s level fail miserably time after time with the game on the line. It’s not expectations when LeBron has failed to rise to the occassion and lift his team to victory against the elite teams in the league. You essentially avoided my inital question which was, “which player has his team playing to the highest level they are capable of playing on a consistent basis?” How can you even claim that LeBron has done this and how can you claim Rose has not? This should be what the MVP is all about shouldn’t it? I believe the player that is the primary reaason a team has played to the best of its ability and succeed is the MVP. Rose has been the consumate team player, leader, and driving force to lead his team to the level of play they are at right now. It’s not about expectations with the Heat, they are having a good season record wise, but just think if LeBron would have come through against the elite teams? Just think if LeBron had come through more often in game tying or winning shots? What would their record be then? 65 win? Luckily we “witnessed” LeBron pad his stats against the dregs of the NBA, but when it was SHOWTIME he failed more times than not. No one can argue this but I have a feeling you may try. Rose MVP, end of story.

lebron always performed against the best in the league this year. maybe you need to go recheck those games against the celtics and bulls. lebron bettered rose in both of the games he played against him. wade was the one with terrible games against the top teams. people are just so hooked on criticizing lbj that they don’t even look at the facts.

I disagree about switching players and having the Bulls be better. LeBron could have gone to the Bulls, and played *with* D Rose instead of replacing him, but he chose not to do that (and in my opinion, rightfully so).

I think the reason D Rose is the MVP is that he has a killer instinct. He just has that will to win, that fire in his eyes, and you can see it. I’ve never seen that in LeBron. I’ve seen it in Kobe, seen it in Wade, but not LeBron. And I think that’s why he couldn’t take a team to the championship by himself. He had to team up with someone who has the will to win at all costs to be the leader while he puts up his incredible stats.

But Rose has it. He’s the guy you trust to shoot it with the game on the line because he has that desire. It’s something you can’t put in to numbers.

Neazy, are you on crack bro???? Lebron took one of the worst supporting casts ever to the finals a few years ago! you are seriously trying to say that you would rather have Rose than Lebron on this Bulls team. Lebron could go down as the greatest of all time. Sorry dude but you’re an idiot.

Yeah, I am. The Bulls need Rose more than they need LeBron. He’s the point guard, and the bona fide leader. LeBron isn’t a leader, and he can’t carry a team to a championship by himself, as he proved in Cleveland. That’s why he needed to play with number 3 down in Miami. I believe Derrick Rose will carry his team to a championship, if not this year, then in the next couple years.

Another thing I don’t like is the argument that we should have given all those MVPs to Michael in the 90′s. Maybe we should have, but if you really think MJ was that great, why don’t you believe him when he said on camera that Derrick Rose should be the MVP this season? If anyone knows something about MVPs, it’s the best player of all time!

thats a weak argument because rose hasn’t taken “his” team to the finals either. rose has always had a talented team but just couldn’t get it done. the addition of boozer, thibs, and those solid bench pieces is what is putting bulls over the hump. the bulls aren’t scoring many more points right now then they have scored other years.

I think the MVP race is all based on popularity and who’s name the media heads through out in interviews the most. Case in point, the Thunder are leading their division but neither Durant or Westbook are being talked about as MVP’s.

Back to the Heat: Lebron is a great player but the team is better with Wade at the helm. Lebron is a good facilitator but Wade is the better closer. For those fans who seems to remember when the Heat were in a free fall facing a big game at home against the Lakers (partly due to Lebron’s ability to close out some of the game on the losing streak) It was D-Wade vs. Kobe is the 4th quarter and Wade came out of the game looking like the best player in B-ball with his dominant play on both ends of the ball. I mention this because I think the MVP is the guy with the most impact on both ends of the floor and I think that has been Wade. The guy is averaging a whopping 1.1 block a game to go along with 1.5 steals. The thing that is so incredible about his blocks average is that these are not the chase down, help defender blocks. The guy is changing jump shots and taking them for fast break dunks, and facing centers at the rim.

All this mention of Lebron rivaling Rose for the MVP, and no mention of Wade in the conversation when he has played as good as anyone in the league this season is insane.

I am starting to consider Wade for the most underrated player in basketball. The guy is a finals MVP but still is basically an after though in conversations. Wake Up!

does anyone realize that the heat were 29-31 last year before d-wade took that team on a 18-4 finish? lebron is an above average basketball player with out of this world physical talent and a below average killer instinct…the only reason this debate occurs is that there is no clear definition of what the mvp is and their is no precedent. this entire debate got screwed up when they gave it away in the 90′s to people not named mj. so now its a who does the media like the most award, there is no way lebron or dwade win the award; just like kobe didnt win it when he avg’d 35/game. the media hate them and expectations are 60 wins and a finals appearance each year.
most valuable means, which team would be hurt the most if that player weren’t on that team. it means teams with multiple superstars have less risk and spread the value. it doesnt mean what would happen if you switched teams (you cant switch AI and Shaq in 2000 to see what happens)
id be curious to see how old the players who won the mvp and championship in the same year were, my guess is on the under 30 side, expectations were lower and they may not have had as many clear stars around them (i.e. shaq in 2000, he had glen rice, derek harper and a 22 yr old bryant)

One of the things I keep reading here is whether or not Lebron James has achieved “LEGEND” status. I’m not addressing whether or not he’s MVP this year, and there’s no way of arguing that Derrick Rose might not become a legend himself too someday. But Lebron is DEFINITELY GOING DOWN AS A LEGEND. The argument I see against this is that he has not won any titles yet. Sure, winning is the most important thing in basketball – more important than being a legend. But the number of titles you’ve won doesn’t classify you as a legend or not. Nobody can deny that Karl Malone is an NBA legend and he has never won a title. Same with Charles Barkley. Also, consider Robert Horry, who has SEVEN rings. Is he a Spurs or Lakers legend? No, his teammates Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant got him those rings. Championship rings say a lot about talent, but individual play can make you a Legend without them. Lebron has broken so many records as the youngest player to reach this milestone and that milestone. Come on. He might not be the MVP this year, but he’s obviously established himself as a “Legend.” He’s definitely on a higher tier of play.

Dingo — I agree with you. Listen, I’m a huge Kobe fan (if you can’t tell by my handle). I would like nothing less than to see Lebron fail (and he has yet to prove he can step up on the greatest stage). That said, the stuff he’s done over the 1st 7-8 years of his career during the REGULAR SEASON has only been duplicated by 1-2 other players in the history of basketball. There is a lot of hate out there for Lebron (some of it justified), but you can’t deny he will go down as one of the greats.

I disagree with Lebron as MVP. In D.Rose you have a young player who has elevated his game before your eyes in this season. You know what Lebron is going to give you, since he has been doing it already. If you leave Lebron on Cleveland and give D.Wade Bosh and some salary cap for a stronger bench, they will be right where they are now.

Look at the fact that D.Rose team has not lost more than 2 games in a row. When he loses to a team he blames himself and the next time they see that team he puts up near perfect numbers, do the research.

Malone was given the MVP out of hate for MJ and the Bulls. We are destined to see this again because Rose has the same engine in him like Mike. Lebron on the other hand chose and easier route to goal of a Championship. He is a beast but he doesn’t have the same focus as Mike or Rose.

Your first point is a little flawed. While pointing out that the Heat started the season at 8-7, you completely ignore the Bulls’ equally sluggish start. Also, you make it sound as if the Heat is the only team to have incorporated several new players. The Bulls have added Boozer, Korver, Brewer, Bogans, Watson, and Asik. I also don’t remember the Celtics having such a hard time becoming acclimated to each other in 2008. Finally, your point on the Heat’s injury situation is laughable. The Bulls’ second and third best players have missed a total of over 50 games. What would the Heat’s record be if Wade and Bosh had missed so much time? You might want to throw that whole first point out the window.

It makes no sense what you are saying. please stop using that 50 games combined argument when boozer has only missed 15 of them. when noah is hurt the bulls don’t miss a beat. when boozer was hurt the bulls lost 6 games.

To anybody that thinks Lebron doesn’t deserve MVP because he chose the “easy route” in Miami:

There’s been a lot of comparison between Lebron’s situation with potentially losing the award to D-Rose this year, to Michael Jordan’s situation when he lost the award to Karl Malone. Few would deny that in their respective eras, Lebron and MJ were the better all-around players during that year, but in the end they just weren’t considered the MVP. (assuming that D-Rose beats Lebron this year, as I personally think he should.)

I’m curious what you all think about Lebron’s taking the “easy route” though. By easy route, I guess people mean that he chose to team up with a mega-star in Dwayne Wade, as well as another All-Star in Chris Bosh. A lot of people have no problem trash-talking Lebron, but there is hardly a single basketball fan on the planet that would ever consider saying anything critical about His Airness, Michael Jordan. But, how different was Michael Jordan’s situation – he played with one of the greatest players to ever walk the earth (Scottie Pippen) and the most successful coach to ever live (Phil Jackson), not to mention multiple other big stars, such as Dennis Rodman. I think we’d all agree Michael Jordan could win with anybody, anywhere, but if you think Lebron has taken the “easy route,” do you feel the same about Michael Jordan? Sure the dynamics are different because all these names have different positions/roles on their teams, but still, is having a superstar supporting cast really a legitimate reason to get less credit than you deserve?

There is no comparison. MJ wanted to beat the game’s best, not tag along with them. He never chased championships. His teammates were either drafted by the Bulls (Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, Armstrong, etc) or came to play with Jordan (Rodman, Harper). He never would have signed with a team like Boston, L.A., or Detroit so they could win him a title. He beat them on the way to a title.

You’re right – MJ has said he never had the desire to move to another team. He had a different situation than Lebron. But what if the Bulls organization had failed to surround Jordan with an incredible supporting cast, capable of complementing his talents in a way that helped secure multiple championships? I mean, Jordan was definitely not the only amazing player on that squad. The Bulls lucked out big time by landing Pippen, who, one could argue, made it an “Easy” choice for Jordan to never consider leaving the team.

I’m not trying to judge or justify Lebron’s decision to move. I’m just wondering, why is it that one superstar gets no criticism for playing with other great players, and the other doesn’t? I think a large part of it is the classlessness that Lebron displayed with his TV Broadcast and Block Party, but off-the-court shenanigans aside, what about the rosters themselves? What if Lebron never left the Cavs and instead Wade and/or Bosh somehow joined him in Cleveland? Would he still get criticized for having an “easy” team to play with? Would that be any different than Jordan playing with the phenomenal teammates he had?

It’s not a bad thing that he picked the best team to play on. Anyone who says they wouldn’t have picked the Heat if they were in LeBron’s place last summer is either a liar or an idiot.

The way I see it is that Rose is the leader, and you have to give that special consideration beyond just the stats. The fact that Bron Bron isn’t the leader doesn’t mean anything. If the Bulls were 5th place in the East, LBJ is MVP, no contest. But D Rose has done some amazing shit.

6. FACT: Bulls started 9-8. They’re STILL on a better pace then the Heat.

5. 1.6 ppg and 3.3 rpg advantage for LJ. 1.6 points is no where near “much better”. You’d expect a 6’8″ 250 lbs to out rebound a PG. But your grabbing at straws so I see why you would point that out.

4. Derrick Rose has shut down the top point guards this year. He’s not the greatest defender but he’s no Carmelo.

3. So good players should have bad coaches? Because no MVP has ever had a good coach right? And how is that Derrick Roses fault that the Bulls front office did a good job getting a caoch?

2. The Bulls would have no point guard (a current excuse used by the Heat). Oh, and just trade Chris Bosh for Dwight Howard, and Mike Miller for Dirk Nowitki, and… This isn’t a fantasy league. Stick to what’s real.

1. LOL, did you just call LeBron a F*CKING legend? The guy needs a couple more years for that. He’s great but he’s not a legend yet. FACT: That’s homer remark if I’ve ever heard one.

Some more facts:

A. LeBron plays with TWO other all stars. One of which is a Finals MVP.

B. Derrick Rose has played without the Bulls second best player and defensive stopper for extended parts of the season. Lebron… the fourth best (Miller) and role player (Haslem). He’s still got those two all stars, but I guess you’re saying they kind of suck.

C. LeBron BROUGHT the hype. It was his idea. If you want people to stop all of it then tell LeBron to shut his mouth and just play ball. No ESPN specials, no pyro preseason intros.

D. Derrick Rose can take over a game, LeBron can miss game winners. SO valuable.

I’m Bringing My Talents to Chicago — thanks for the detailed comment. I appreciate your opinion, and much of what you say I’ve addressed in other comments here on this thread. That said, let me hit on a couple of things:

* Lebron bringing the hype — this is part of the problem as I see it. There has been such a backlash against Lebron for his “Decision”, that this has become a factor in arguing why he doesn’t deserve MVP. I hear a lot of “he brought this on himself”, “he didn’t have to go to the Heat”, etc. While these may all be true, they are INCONSEQUENTIAL arguments to the MVP debate.

* Re: Lebron not being a legend, really? The first 8 years of his career are arguably (and actually, probably) the best first 8 years of NBA history. He’s probably already in the top 20 players of all time. What’s the argument against this? If it’s titles, then what about Barkley, Malone, etc.?

* The statistical gap is actually pretty big. He shoot 7 points better than Rose in FG%. His PER is 20% higher. He averages 75% more rebounds, and 40% more steals. (oh, and he’s been shooting an unreal 57% since the All-star break)

6. Fact – Heat are up 1-0 in the finals.
5. 1 is a pg, 1 is a ? oh that’s right he can really play any position…he still has great numbers with 2 other great players on the team.
4. 1 can shut down a pg for a game…what about 1 who can shut down anyone on the floor if it’s what’s asked of him? A trip down the floor on a team’s 1? no prob. A trip down the floor on a team’s 4? no prob. Now try to tell me how lebron’s defense isn’t remarkably better than rose’s? I understand he’s a beast of a man and rose seems like a child next to him, but it’s how he was born, and he has done as much as anyone could ever expect from him on the defensive end.
3. Who really cares about the coaching of thibs or spo, they both…BOTH wanted to bring in a superb style of defense for both of their teams. They have both done that. That’s how they both wanted to build their teams, both had great seasons, both made playoffs.
2. Yes it’s a hypothetical question, but one every person can answer on their own. Before the season if I had a choice between lebron or rose…i’m fuken sorry but it’s a no brainer i’d take lebron every day all day. Now that it’s the finals and having seen how lebron and rose played…if u can truly think u’d take rose over lebron…wow
1. yes a player who’s been in the league for 8 yrs, hasn’t won a championship, left his “hometown” team, pissed off the majority of the basketball fans in the country can still be a legend. Do people talk about him? yes. Do people go crazy about the things he does? yes. Now if people go crazy and talk about him, all of you are and some of you are getting hysterical over it, doesn’t that make him a legend? You don’t even need to know the stats or numbers or anything else.

#6 As stated by others the Bulls started 9-8 as well and still have a better record than the Heat since that time. As well as a better record vs elite teams and specifically 3-0 against the Heat.

#5 The MVP is not based primarily on stats. It has more to do with with team success along with individual output in meaningful games with season stats playing an important role but a secondary role. That is just the fact of the situation. The PPG is negligible considering the extra minute per game LBJ plays and Rose’s extra assist(in fact, Rose produces more there). Rebounds mean nothing in comparing the two. There is no question a 6’9″ SF will rebound more than a 6’3″ PG. It is his responsibility to do so and when you add the size of the Bulls it is only natural to assume that Boozer, noah, gibson, etc. etc. will get most of those for the team. And while Rose’s FG% isn’t hot, it isn’t as bad as it would suggest. Although he could stand to make an extra shot or two, this is where stats don’t really represent the consistency of the story. He continuously takes half court/full court buzzer beaters, shoots random threes and tough jumpers when noah (or another big man) has position in the paint, etc. All of which diminish his FG% but in reality one would ever accuse him of being a poor jump shooter and defend him like they defend Rondo.

#4 LBJ is great defensively but when comparing LBJ vs SFs and Rose vs PGs, they stack up similarly. It is impossible to have a great defensive team w/o a very good (if not great) defender on the primary ball handler.
Rose has consistently shut down all the top PGs all year. No to mention with his vertical, he can contest jump shots of almost every one on the court on defensive rotations. Status update: Steals and blocks do not always determine how good of a defender someone truly is.

#3 You are right that Thibodeau has a very important role in the success of the Bulls. But the players have executed the game plan and that starts with Derrick Rose. Also your comments on Deng could not be more off base. His game is not revitalized and other than his injury year. He has been consistently good through his career. He was only a target of ridicule because he used to disappear on the court (offensively) as 1 or 2 option on a crappy Bulls team and now is just icing on the cake when he puts up 17.5ppg as the 3 (or 3 1/2) option on a great Bulls team. He was not trade bait for Melo. The Bulls were never realistically pursuing him anyway.

#2 This is just conjecture and deserves no answer other than saying, the Heat would be better if Rose and LBJ switched places. I have just as much proof as you do… none.

#1 “LeBron James should win because I said so!” -Mamba
LBJ is great at the game of basketball in the present and recent past. But in no way is a legend yet (could be one day). However, It is just a childish statement and fundamental misuse of the term to deem him a legend. These last two arguments were just imaginative.

LeBron James is overall a more talented basketball player, mainly because of his inherent physical traits, but that doesn’t make him MVP for 2010-’11.

“Most likely, you think of names like Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Olajuwon, Kobe, Shaq, etc. These are the elite of the elite.”

It’s funny that you mention Kobe because all in all Kobe only has one regular season MVP award. Even more devastating is the fact that Phil, the greatest basketball coach of all time, only has one COY. MVP is meaningless because at the end of day everyone really wants to be Finals MVP.

I am a huge boston fan but damn Drose has beat the heat 3 times now. I’m sorry but he is scarier than Lebron. Rose just has that explosiveness. It seems like he makes every player around him better. Rose just seems to be the most valuable player without a doubt. Noah and Boozer missed a combined 50+ games. Throughout the 2010 playoffs last year, they were monsters against us. Just think about what he can do this year as first seed. I hope we play them in the Eastern finals. He is humble, and gives credit to others on the court. He just compliments the court that well. I can careless about statistics.

I’ve seen several post’s by this “whatever” guy stating that lebron is not coachable because no area of his game has improved since he came into the league. Either you haven’t watched any basketball the past ten years because your one of these bitter bulls fans that stopped watching after jordan left when the bulls were terrible or your just delusional. When Lebron came into the league he had a very inconsistent midrang jumpshot, played little defense, and couldnt shoot three’s. Since that time he has vastly improved all of these ares especially defense. Your argument about rose having to guard cp3, d-will, westbrook works the other way too Lebron guards Durant, Melo, paul pierce. Lebron has improved some aspect of his game every year he has been in the league. Your just another Lebron hater that sooner or later will have to accept the fact that you were lucky to see this guy play!

Basically ‘Whatever’ doesn’t like LeBron James. It seems personal for him. He also uses profanity and abusive language when his position isn’t as secure as he’d like for it to be. Oh well. It’s easy to be snarky on the internet.

I’m just hoping Heat and Bulls meet in the East Finals and we will all arguments to rest.
No one wins in your arguments. Everyone has a point or two to raise. Let the one to raise the Conference Finals banner wins

1. The Bulls also started 8-7
2. Not only do the Bulls lack another megastar and all star, but D. Rose played without his Starting big men for the majority of the season. They were starters not role players like mike miller.

@JARED near the top of the page, if the Heat are 0-3 against the Celtics, what the heck kind of lies are you telling considering the fact that now the Heat are 2-0 against the Celtics, 3rd win tonight probably.(PLAYOFFS) Against the Bulls, it would be a 7 game clutch series that the Heat, who are better in those situations, would win. LeBron did deserve this MVP strongly, and Derrick Rose was a very strong player and candidate, but stats are stats, and clutch is definite in these situations. Clutch wins the game, therefore LeBron deserved the MVP, who’s the cold-blood killer shooting less than 40% from the field in clutch and only averaging about 1 more assist per game over James, which I hope would be true because he’s a PG. Seriously. And FT’s? Like they matter. If you need Bron to make one, he will, if you need Rose to make one, don’t count on it going in.

The stats show you who’s the better player! Hands down! The heat just won the the conference finals and rose was not the mvp nor did he play like he was the best player on the court! Lebron shall be the best to go down in history as pippen said today! May 27th! Just a reminder to all who know that if the heat end up winning 6 or 7 rings together wade will still have one more than lebron thanks to shaq! But going back to stats defensively lbj for sure! He will gaurd the best or the hottest player for the other team at any point and time! He can’t be contained in the open court or on fast breaks and having wade with him in those situtations only cuts away for his scoring but gians in assists! All I have to say is I’m a clevelander from birth and I watched james play in highschool at the same time I was in highschool and i was impressed! since he has been an nba superstar I’ve only become that much more of a fan !!!! He is a complete basketball player! The most complete player I’ve ever watched play this game! God bless all you out that that dislike/dissaprove of this atheliticly gifted human!

WHATEVER – You should definitely be eating some crow, but chances are you won’t respond to these replies cause you feel stupid for arguing up Derrick Rose. The ‘MVP’ choked in the playoffs and it just displays LeBron’s greatness as he guarded him in the 4th periods. The Bulls were the Cleveland Cavaliers of 09/10.

I definitely agree with that last comment. Drose choked on a freethrow shot that would have tied the game. Thats a lot easier than the late game shots Lebron has to try and make. I mean on a freethrow theres no defence and rose still missed it. in my opinion thats a bigger choke than any of Lebrons in the whole 2010-11 season and playoffs

Rose choked away the Eastern Conference Finals, LeBron choked away the NBA Finals. Which one is really worse here? The MVP failed to perform, but LeBron did as well and failed in even more spectacular fashion than Rose. Need any more proof? Did Rose choking in the ECF become the subject of internet ridicule for an entire month?

kingJAMES is truely amazing.,.,.,.now he is better than the other player otherwise he is now the nba’s best player.,.,.,some says kobe is better than lebron .,.,no yeah i know kobe is a great player but if will watch all the games in this season .,.,.,.,we will see that lebron james perforamnce ib better than kobe.,.,.,about derrick rose,rose is one of my idol but we can see that lebron is better than him.,.,.,.,.,theres a lot of reason why lebron ,will become an mvp this .,.,year b’coz.he is a very good player

i second that lebron is the most over rated over paid faggot of the nba! half of his stats are padded by the biased calls by the refs. talented- yes, elite-maybe, humble or respect for the game-no, sore loser cry baby- hells yes, big fat ass that put on weight to barrel down the lane uncontrolled-almost always, will he win a ring-maybe with right team and him becoming a complete player!

idk about the bulls winning, especially at home.. i cant stand how much bs lebron and these miami fags get away with especially at home.. lebron gets away with murder every single game and should foul out every single game, nevers gets called for offensive or defensive fouls. and if the heat are down by 10+ points or late in game the calls all go in their favor even more… if these idiot refs would open up their eyes and spot taking what the nba big wigs tell them to draw fans towards nba and heat and cause drama. then the heats record would be .500 mark and lebrons stats would be lechump numbers.

Love it how spurs r up by 13 and refs called abs no fouls against heat and 9 against spurs. 6 or more on lebron alone. I saw 1 foul not 9! And at least 9 against heat. Guess that’s normal miami heat home court advantage? And lebron still shoots tons of bricks from free throw line.
Majority of miami heat fans are idiots, bandwagon fans, don’t understand basketball rules and blind! Same with the refs that support the players and fans conduct!

Most under rated player in NBA= Luol Deng…. Most over rated player in NBA= Lebron James!!

Miami heats 3 paid off refs absolutely gave the win on a silver platter to the heat. The more the heat were down the more biasis they favored. We need to fire these refs and stop having NBA big wigs supporting these calls to draw fans!

God I love it how over rated lebron gets away with murder. And these idiot refs inflat at least half his stat even when he plays absolutely horrible!
Lebron get 3 fouls 6 free throw shots in final minute when down by 4! Wow
And bosh needs to stop looking like a catfish idiot and learn how to play basketball!

Really do love how lebron james always gets away with murder, never fouls out or gets called for offensive or defensive fouls. And all these idiot miami heat fans r sell out bandwagon fags. Your giving real legit basketball fans headaches and a bad rep!

lebron is not the best at anything in the nba period!
maybe biggest cry baby when he still is spoiled with bs calls.

not the best dunker- blake griffin and other beat the crap out of him
not the fastest- d rose and other scorers are faster than him.
not the best shooter- hundreds of better jump shooters, fad away, rainbow, and 3 point specialists then him. and if he got half of the pressure or contact the rest of the nba players got he would consistently throw up bricks.
not the best defensive player- staying in front, steals, blocks, hustle.. can think of 5 that are paid less in a lifetime than lebron in a year. most under rated defensive player is luol deng! and refs dont call defensive fouls against lebron because hes lebron, hes perfect and too good to never foul.
not the smartest player- handful of point guards and most i would say kobe bryant
not the best motivator or on the court ‘coach’- again kobe takes that by a landslide! kobes understanding of the games is because of his countless years of experience and champ rings. but also he talks to and explains things to everyone from starters to bench rookies.. he can also get in opponents heads like no other. and at his age hes still putting up unreal 40 point games and blow by these young fast rookies!
oh ya i wouldnt even mention lebron playing as center in the post- thats a joke. hes not a big man like howard or many other tree tall centers.

You talking about injuries? Lebron losing haslem and mike miller to injjuries? How bout Drose missing boozer at some point and Noah as well. And it’s not all about stats but what you do to make your team win. The heat can survive without lebron, but the bulls will not survive without Drose.

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