Discussion Topic

the forum was intended to be a place to share climbing info and be a resource for the climbing community.

it is now clearly a place where it is ok for: sometimes over half the threads are political, not climbing photos of dead people are posted sexual photos are posted personal attacks are as common as posting info intended to help people out

so, i am going to propose a few things for cleaning up the forum:

1) for a few weeks i am going to relatively little except delete the really offensive stuff. but i am going to ask that when people see stuff that violates the forum rules THEY NOT RESPOND TO IT IN THE POSTS. Instead, send me an email. hopefully the offensive posts will get burried if nobody responds to them.

2) if that doesnt work, we will get two forums. one for climbing related stuff and one for non-climbing related stuff. if anyone tries to hijack climbing related threads, we will just ban them. we don't have time to weed out the threads, so we will just be deleting the users.

3) all along the way, I'll be using the whack amole technique that other have suggested and seems to be relative effective. so that it is not a surprise to people, read the next part carefully: I do not have time to warn people to stop breaking the forum rules. every once in a while ill give warnings, but for the most part i won't. i like to spend my time climbing, not being a forum cop.

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I appreciate your position, Chris, but if you have to implement #2 there will be no reason to come to this site. The mix is what it's all about (even if it does get out of hand at times) ;There are already enough climbing-nerd sites out there, and ditto for rant sites.
I'll be good, but if it gets too boring I'll be forced back to actual campfires at Crags!

I appreciate an effort to make things better, although if you ask me, the number of quality posters has never, ever been better. Things get out of hand for short times, and then the pendulum swings.

So I hope Chris will be able to define what acceptable to talk about in the forum, or better, just lay out the small territory that's unacceptable.

If the only acceptable content is strickly climbing related, then I believe the more experienced (sometime retired) poster here might be bored with it and things would get really, really small.

Perhaps that wouldn't be all bad for "Supertopo" as a business. The forum would be a seldom used backwater like many other climbing forums, but it wouldn't be a community, dystfuntional like most communities, that it is. For me, that would be a shame.

My opinion, rather than strictly regulate content, split the forum and let a thousand flowers bloom. Few who know what they are doing want to be 24/7 tech support to the climbing world.

Bob, are you really that silly? Constitutional law applies to the limits the government may or may not go to intrude on your rights. This is a privately owned website. You have no first ammendment rights here.

Chris: The change is need, but I am sorry you have to be involved, I'm sure it sucks to have to police a bunch of middle schoolers. Don't waste your time moderating each forum-I agree with the just nuke it option. Everyone will get the picture before to long and moderate themselves. Lately I have tried to avoid the political threads by not even opening them up but that seems not to be possible any longer (thanks Matt)

The JUST NUKE'EM policy has my vote. Those who don't learn should then be banned.

I would quickly sacrifice the political crap to save the quality climbing related discussions on this site.

No one should have to waste climbing time to police ST-let the politics go somewhere else.

If you want to exercise your first amendment rights-go stand on the public street corner with all the other wackos.

Another optioin would be to have some way to have the community Flag a post if it is offensive. This seems to work well on craigslist and other forums I have seen. Once a post has been flagged by a critical mass, it automatically deletes. Once you have had more than one post deleted then you are banned. Sort of a self regulating system.

LEB I think this forum goes pretty easy on the sexist remarks, because everyone posting knows a few ladies that can out climb us. They have more than proven their mettle and most of the supertopo posters are a little better educated than your average construction worker.

the issue is too many political threads and climbing threads that are hijacked and steered away by political issues.

right now, everything seems cool. a few weeks ago, there was a time when it seemed like 30% or more of the threads were political. and i was getting a lot of emails from people saying "Hey, i cam to this site for climbing info... why do i have to wade through all this other crap"

the other stuff: like posting photos of dead people, sexual stuff, and all the back and forth personal attacks - that stuff has to go. if you have a personal problem with someone, work it out over email. don't make the rest of us watch.

I think your idea of creating 2 forums is great. Of late there have seemed to be MANY postings of a non climbing nature. Sure we all get a kick out of them. Many of us have laughed at Satan and Donney as well as the PTP and Jody threads. However why not move the non climbing bs to a non climbing section. Well that's my 2 specks of dirt.

Although I rarely post here, I am a frequenty (daily) visitor. I just wanted to drop my two cents in on this issue because I do feel strongly about it.

I can do without the sex and the dead bodies (missed that actually), but I am a firm believer in an open forum. As Ed pointed out, the First Amendment does not apply here, but there are guiding principles we can learn from. So let me set out my philosophy:

I am an adult. I have absolute power over what all of you say and post. That power comes in the form of what I click on. I can easily ignore the political threads (they are fairly obvious). I occasionally find them amusing, however. Of course, I've never posted in a political thread. There's no need. The members here are all intelligent and capable of defending their respective positions. More importantly, we are a diverse community. Even if I remain silent, my views are represented.

All of this is leading up to the idea that we are, as Karl put it, a community, albeit a dysfunctional one. The openness of the forum is what gives it it's character. To curtail that openness runs counter to why I love this place so much. So . . . reasonable limits on decency are fine (I occasionally go to forums on other hobbies that I would be ashamed for friends to see some o fthe crap that's posted, so I'm all for decency). But let's not get overzealous in cleaning up the place. If we do, we lose the very character that makes this such a great place.

Chris,
Go for it. You have a climbing web-site, related to a great service - supertopo.com and your books.

That's what I came here for. I climb Gunks 20-35 days per year (if my wife climbed, it would be 40-60). Road trip 1-3 times per year. Climbed Yosemite once for two weeks (2004, will be there again). Yosemite rocks, your service rocks. I am over 50 (gumby - started climbing 2001). I buy your stuff. If my wife were a climber and son were in college (2 years away), I would already be retired and road-tripping.

If you make it only climbing - great stuff. That's all I care about. If you want to make it climbing - political, that's cool too. Especially, if I can bookmark "just climbing". I have posted non-climbing when I am bored. But would not even see it if you separated the two.

Climbing posts rock. Political - w7diw (keyboard shift).

Climbers on the site are good even when you disagree with them. Eliminate the political threads - (or separate them - your choice of course). I'll still be here and so will the serious climbers - disagreeing, just as they have since Harding. :)_

Its about time, however, climbers are not politicians, and I do not know any climber holding a job in Pentagon or UN, they never talk about sex or activities in this manner, They never drink and drive, only some times they smoke and climb safely, they try to respect each other and never fight over who did the first accent on some wall, they dress well and wear the top clothing, they are friendly and share their climbing stuff among each other, and Germans forced them to drive VW bus back then.

I don't know this LEB broad, but she seems like
a pretty smart dame. I bet she's got a nice rack.

what are you talking about- she doesn't even climb...

since i have been mentioned by name in this thread (and since i am one of the few who actually uses his own name around here), i will just say that i have finished off more tiffs here than i have started, and these "rules" don't bother me at all.

as for political threads, it's a myth that i start so many of them (maybe i just start the good ones?), at worst i post the text of an editorial every so often, just to start some discussion, but the garbage threads start elsewhere (go check for yourself).

as for personal attacks, mr. fattrad, IMHO, brought a whole new level of negativity to this site in his 1st months on the scene, and it's something that is difficult to turn down after it has been turned up.

i feel like the guy clearly demonstrated a certain heart-felt distain for sertain segments of the world's population which made him an altogether unique individual here, and i just wanted to welcome the "whole" jody back, not just his pretty pictures, and since i am posting this, i guess i haven't been banned for it (yet).

finally, of all the things i have ever done in my life, some to be proud of and some to look back and laugh at or learn from, let me just say that the kids who cried and whined in kindergarden were usually weak and lame, and in my estimation that's every bit as true in adult life- you know who you are, what a bunch of sissies... (is that a personal attack? sorry, maybe you'd better send big brother an email!)

werner- i'm not saying i was the jerk making other kids cry, just saying the same kids always seemed to be doing the whining. as for defending the weak, i have done plenty of that and i agree w/ you entirely. as an example, whenever i round out a day of cragging by running up RA, i always stop and talk to those who are on it all day and make sure they have EXTENSIVE beta on the NDG walk-off, or 2 ropes to rap.

judy wrote:Democratic Presidential candidate Wesley Clark..."
i am sure all of you friends could care less anout anyone in sudan, and i am equally as sure that the neocons who now claim that we are in iraq "for the sake of the iraqi people" simply re-demonstrate their utter hypocracy when it never even enters their minds that the people in darfur are far worse off than even the people of iraq were under SH.

btw- didn't you see Cmac's appeal NOT to hijack threads w/ political discussion?

Chris: Seperation of Climbing and State would be a good thing. I vote for two forums. :) The only really downright sucky thing about these forums is the crap you have to wade through to get to the climbing.

Having discussions about things other than climbing on this forum directly lead to me meeting several great climbing partners and having awesome climbing experiences in Yosemite. This would not have happened for me in a carefully moderated forum. Suggest implementing a voting system to give feedback and automatically suspend the lame-4sses, but don't separate into "climbing" and "other stuff" forums. And make it so the search features are more effective (I often come up empty searching for what I remember from threads past).

Yes I want climbing information. But I also want to connect with people who share one of my passions. If you fragment the site, I probably wouldn't come very often for a dry climbing discussion and I wouldn't waste my time with lame-ass political, spiritual, and philosophical discussions. But stick 'em together and I get suckered into wasting my time!

Part of what draws me to this online community is how it reflects a random distribution of people, drawn together by a passion for climbing. As stated in some threads a few months back, it really is like a virtual campfire sitting around camp 4 (except that actually being in Camp4 is much less interesting these days in my weekend warrior experience this year).

During a time when my wife and kids were visiting relatives in another country for several months, it filled part of the void for my social needs (since I don't drink or do drugs or do ho's I need something!). And, it was a channel for my personal growth, to practice sharing my real non-work thoughts and practice dealing with differences of opinion in a benign setting. Maybe a selfish use of a resource not intended for the purpose, but I'm guessing we all have our selfish reasons for being here.

"2) if that doesnt work, we will get two forums. one for climbing related stuff and one for non-climbing related stuff. if anyone tries to hijack climbing related threads, we will just ban them. we don't have time to weed out the threads, so we will just be deleting the users."

Two forums is a great idea! Climbing Stuff and Non-Climbing Stuff. How much more do you need?

Climberweenie exhoes my sentiments here - I'm a regular on RC.com, too, but mainly because I know a lot of the other regulars in person, and because it's rewarding to me on a few levels.

But ST has a flair that has me loyal to it - the quality of the posts, the insights, the self policing, the general respect afforded. A lot less signal-to-noise ratio.

Splitting off the forums is going to take moderation work on your part, Chris. People are going to screw it up. I think your whack-a-mole/banning approach is working just fine. The forum is fun, educational, and attracts a high caliber of individuals. Kudos.

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Aug 28, 2005 - 03:42pm PT

Two forums, more of WCG's pics, especially the hot babes barely dressed, less gore, in fact, a LOT less gore, keep the climbing posts in the climbing forum, the rest in the other forum, and,

DO NOT BAN OUCH! He's the court jester.

Please don't ban the sexy pics of waterchossguy, sometimes they are the best thing in the forum.

The saga of Bear 46 as told by Ouch! should be on the front page.

It should be obvious that the women who come here can take care of themselves. We don't need no stinking Politically Korrect BS, but real gender based nastiness seems to get a beating from just about everyone anyway.

Probably a good idea to have two forums. Most climbers have a comfort zone with other climbers and can talk freely about other things besides climbing without personalizing all the guff and backtalk that are part of what's basically a Tevoed Chat Line.

RC.com seems to bring out the worst in me, so I'm better off over here by far.

If I were Chris, I wouldn't want to start down a path that requres more forum maintenance. Just whach moles for awhile and see what happens.

The difference between climbing and politics/sex/religion gets blurred fast and things go back and forth. For example, Leeper just stopped selling anything to the military. (Besides bolt hangers and pins, he also sells electromagnetic detection gear of some sort) Climbing, Politics, both?

I have dail up myself but don't have any problem choosing what threads to view or not and close the ones that don't interest me. Part of the problem is that, despite so many folks that say they want to read about climbing, there is less posting enthusiasm for the climbing threads, particularly if they aren't spiced up with some almost off topic extra gossip or such.

Is it necessary to abuse T*R like that because you have a difference of opinion with her? She is young but I would not call her a twerp kid. I happen to agree with you about the soft porn but it makes quite a bully of you to attack her like that. She is actually very sweet and I think she offers a youthful perspective and enthusiasm which tends to fade as one ages. It is nice that she is here and brings that perspective to the group.

I think it would be very appropriate if you would apologize to her for your temper. You could strongly disagree with her and make all of the exact same points without stomping all over her like that. Just because you have a normal sex drive does not mean you have to beat up on T*R. Many women believe that men who view porn are disgusting pigs and/or perverts. You did nothing to disabuse anyone of that notion. If you are a decent person, I really believe you owe her an apology."

Hey you psychobabbling old biddy, you can BITE ME.

To answer your condescending question, YES, it is absolutely necessary.

TR seeks to censor this site so that it conforms to her notion of what is comfortably viewable at work. That is so fecking stupid as to defy description. As for her youthful perspective, what a load of hogwash. Youthful perspective is historically and mindnumbingly the same since biblical times, and worth exactly nothing in nearly every case. God spare me from 'youthful perspective', or ignorant, self-righteous, wet-behind-the-ears frippery, as it might more aptly be put.

Then you proceed to call me a bully and an abuser???? Get over yourself!! Have you ever been outside your ivory tower? Perhaps someone will buy you a clue one day. Hello, this is the internet.

I'm so happy to see that you feel comfortable enough to discuss my sex drive, how's yours by the way? Getting any these days?

You talk about twerpolumne rainbow as if you know her in person, is that so? Maybe you two can get together and talk about how awful men are sometime.

Just one more point: All men ARE pigs and perverts, by choice! We don't need porn of any sort to help us along that chosen and much preferred path-- preferred to becoming what women, given their druthers would make us into, god forbid.

Please, take your touchy-feely circa 1973 women's group therapy-speak and put it where the sun does not shine.

IF you can't stand the heat, I hope there is a microwave in your kitchen, and you may leave your shoes at the door.

Thank you for showing your true colors by trying to manipulate and berate me into making an undeserved and unecessary apology. If you were a decent person with a sense of humor you would have seen the joke, but women of your ilk have no sense of humor, as you very nicely demonstrated.

But don't feel too bad, (and I know you won't) women have been doing men dirty since Eve. We're used to it.

Chris built this virtual deli. Most people come sit at the tables, get drunk, chat, argue, and occasionally buy one of his sandwiches.

Some people come to the deli just for the world-famous sandwiches, but they get really peeved that so many tables are filled with people that yak endlessly about things other than sandwiches. Even though there is an endless supply of tables, even though they don't have to sit and listen to the others, and even though they are free to talk about sandwiches as much as they want--with only the occasional and minor interruption--to them it just doesn't seem right. They say things like, "how dare they, this place is about sandwiches, dammit!" and "this is a travesty, there oughta be law". They desperately desire that the guy at the other table, who used to be a master sandwich maker, would confide in them all the mysterious sandwich making arcana they so desperately crave, but alas it is not to be, he only speaks of fishsticks, fudgesickles and the Atkin's diet.

Meanwhile, Chris who says things like, "I just want to give back to the sanwich eatin' comminunitty, because ya know, gee whiz, aw shucks, sanwich eatin' has given so much to me," is out as much as possible eating, eating, eating the sandwiches of the world, research he calls it, while at the same time buying property like crazy in the red hot Tahoe market, when of a sudden he gets a call from the deli manager. It turns out the suggestion box has had a few impassioned complaints about people who wilfully refuse to talk about sandwiches.

Chris must make an appearance, because these are the dorks who buy three sandwiches: one to eat now, one to eat later, and one to be kept cryogenically frozen at home and displayed with reverence to all who visit.

But Chris must proceed carefully if he is to continue his research and maintain his portentous property portfolio; on the one hand he must calm the minority dweebs, but on the other hand he cannot be too vociferous lest he drive off the masses that, while definitely less sandwichcentric, actually do buy more sandwiches, all tolled, than their bumbly brethren.

As usual Chris manages, with his endearing Richie Cunninghamesque charm to bring peace to the deli, and one and all proclaim that C-Mac is our "Sandwich Hero".

"i don't care if people look at porn- soft core or not, it doesn't belong on this forum because some people view it in public places- chris mac says its lame too, in his first post, is he a twerp? is not having WCG post those going to keep you from finding such images on your own? you're not capable of finding them yourself?"

First, walk down a street in NYC, you'll see worse posted as advertising than what WCG posts here. Especially in Chelsea, where the boys are prettier than the girls.

Second, walk down a street in europe, you'll see ads for ice cream with bare breasted girls as the draw.

Note that these are public places too. Guess you'll have to start walking aroudn with a blindfold, huh?

Third, yes, Chris Mac is a twerp if he is going to delete WCG's tame but nice images of women, which are never demeaning, gory, or violent, or even truly sexual. But it's his site. And his right to be a twerp, just as it is your right to be a twerp. There is no law against being a twerp. Yet.

FOurth, as for me finding my own soft core porn, yes, I am incapable of finding it myself, and if WCG is prevented from posting the occasional pic to bust up ( hehe, I love puns) a stupid thread every once in a while, then it will cause me undue hard ship, and much mental misery, and I may not be able to get up in the morning and do what must be done. Even if I have a lifetime supply of Powdermilk Biscuits-- heavens, they're tasty!

twerpolumne rainbow wrote:
"i don't care if you look at porn. i don't care if there are non-climbing threads; if i see wcg posting a thread about his asian chicks its a given that i dont' clik on it, so no biggie.. .but i don't want to see it while i'm trying to read about climbing stuff; keep it out of those threas... in threads about motorcyles you could expect that kind of stuff to be posted, and not click on it. so its not big deal..." End twerpolumne rainbow quote

Well see, that's what's so funny, wcg posts those pics in hoplessly idiotic threads to break em up a little. I guess you in your neo-prude state of mind you wouldn't understand that though.

twerpolumne rainbow wrote:
"sorry if you can't handle my opinion, but i didn't read your post, because it would be waste of my time; i'm just some person on the internet so i dont' understand why you're so hoppin' worked up... LOL" End Twerpolumne rainbow quote

Yes, you see, if you read what I said it might have some evil corrupting effect on your brain, and you must keep to the straight and narrow right-minded path of whatever it is that YOU think is Korrect, and you mustn't wast time on the internet, oh no, the internet is MUCH too important to wast time on.

twerpolumne rainbow wrote:
by the way, it was Harry S. Truman who first said, "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen"... you need to not plagarise, and give credit where credit is due.. " End twerpolumne rainbow quote.

Well my child, you see, what I wrote is not a quote at all, rather a paraphrasing parody of sorts, but then, I would not exptect you to understand the difference, as you are too young. In truth, if old Harry were alive, I would not think he would want to be credited with what I wrote.

I think it’s too late to do anything about the complaints. You’ve left the barn door open; closing the door won’t do any good. The behaviors on Supertopo have been socialized. What you see is what this community is.

Political types won’t go gently to a political forum. It’ll be a death to them. Hijacking must be done where it’s not wanted.

In the end, you must decide. You’re the CEO. Make a decision.

Is the Forum readership the same readership that buys your books? If not, then you’re serving too many customer groups for a little company. Your books and its readers—5.6-5.9 climbers--are the basis for your brand. (This from one of your colleagues I met at The Needles last week.)

Build and protect your company’s brand. (If you’re not building brand, then you’re spending it—and that well is surprisingly shallow.) To build and protect a brand, a company must be extremely clear, disciplined, and focused on who it serves, what it promises, and how well it’s delivering on those promises.

MikeL, Man , you need to chill out. You are wired way too tight and come across as seething with suppressed anger. That could cause a dude to blow a puckerstring. Chris will work this out to suit his needs. Maybe he will run all of us off except you. Either way, it's his affair and I'd give odds the sun will rise tomorrow somewhere.

HEllo T Rainbow...don't fall into an obvious trap of crap by those wishing to get your fur up!!!........ It is not worth it...On the other hand, your point of having two forums being two thimes work I feel is correct... I say leave this site as it is... But then, who the hell am I.....

Even if Mr Stupid Tacos bans me, if I ever want a topo of some route out west I'll buy one of his. Even if he is a T-W-E-R-P-enabler.

But Ouch, I have not flamed here, not really. I am retired from flaming for several years, after reducing a grown man to raving, foaming at the mouth, incoherent lunacy, in print yet, over, well, nothing. YOU gotta retire after a thing like that, it can never be equaled. Besides, it's a terrible thing to watch someone self destruct on the internet.

I did set Kodos off a while back but that was an accident, and started over the phone, and besides he can't really help it, when the must is upon him.

However, I can't resist a good poke (hehe) at a self rightoeus female, especially one who does not know what being trolled is.

Lois, being trolled sucessfully means someone got your goat, and good. IT means biting hook line and sinker on a bait to powerful to resist. It means your chain has been yanked, HARD.

But this last bit was not a true troll. There was a bit of self inflammation there. I just... fanned the coals a bit.

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. It's fine to disagree strongly with opinions, ideas, and facts, but always with respect for the other person. Great minds do not always think alike, and that's where the fun is! Also, note that messages express the thoughts of the writers, not the board or its moderators.

Its funny Ouch!, I've seen in bars, as probably (I hope) you have too, guys that came to blows over nothing more than comments made to each other. My point is that to think because this is the Internet and this is nothing more that light hearted "jousting", you are not pulling someone else's string to a point where they loose control. Terms like "inciting a riot and instigating a fight" come to mind. When this happens, its easy to blame the other guy for not maintaining control. But in the end, it was the guy that was enjoying escalating the banter that was really at fault.

BTW, have you considered working for homeland security, the TSA, or some other para-military covert government agency, where your venom, vitriol, and general paranoia could be put to better use?

You need some serious time in the time out chair, Lois.

Ass for the rest of you PC wankers, you act like you've never been around any climbers at all.

Oh and Lois, T1 on your latest effort. Nice try though! And if you are serious, I only travel great distances to see people I actually know and like and have things in common with. That makes you quite safe.

My guess is that the forum is more than a luxury item extra for a publisher's website. It also brings in beta and history that's valuable in the writing of those books, and the activity in the forum rises the Supertopo profile on search engines.

Ironically, it was just earlier this year, late last year, that the supertopo forum was all the buzz, the place to be. In fact, it's never been better. We have Werner Braun, Duecey, Fish, Eric Kohl, Breedlove and a host of other old schoolers from back in the day sharing their thoughts here. How cool is that? Many of the folks here wouldn't feel comfortable approaching these guys in the camp 4 parking lot but here, in this venue, we're more equal, and we're being in community.

When the forum first started, it was infinitely nastier and unhelpful than it is now. Some folks like it that way, but I think it got better when you had to register.

I think Chris would be right not to fiddle too hard with a good thing. A little medicine is all it takes.

My guess is that we got a tad overheated here and there at the wrong time, and that Hardman and others pulled Chris's chain about it. (Sorry Dave if I'm speculating about you)

Rumors of problems in the forum are greatly exaggerated. We have a thread on adjustable daisies with the Lord Gods of Aid weighing in with technical details and slander too. My guess is that too restrictive a forum will kill the content that brings their perverse minds in for a visit, and then get sucked into helping with info.

I should have sent my comments directly to Chris. I can see that now. My bad.

Actually, I’m not mad at anyone. In fact, I don’t have enough time to cruise this site like most of you, so I can’t really get that passionately involved in most of the conversations here. (Please don’t take that wrong, either.) The title of this thread caught my eye though.

I was providing another viewpoint to Chris that, as a CEO (as he is) of a company, he should be thinking about. Management and leadership are demanding challenges, and sometimes hard decisions need to be made so that an organization serves others best.

I don’t doubt that people get value out of the Forum (hey, look at all the posts). That’s not the point. The point is that all resources are scarce, and every organization should think long and hard about where they spend them, especially little companies.

Brand name / equity may be the most valuable asset that Supertopo has (other than market access to network contacts); hence brand must constantly be built and nurtured with those scarce resources. To undertake any activity that does not build or nurture brand spends it. Do that too long (squander resources), and a company won’t have enough to further the organization, its mission, or properly serve customers. It’s one of the biggest reasons why past successful companies die off every year: they don’t focus, they prematurely diversify, and they get distracted. You may not know it, but the membership of the Fortune 500 changes by 50% every 25 years. There is a reason for that: they get full of themselves, they think they can do anything and everything, and they lose focus on a target customer group and its needs.

My comments were business comments. Perhaps they are inappropriate here on Supertopo. I’ll keep that in mind next time.

"RC.com seems to bring out the worst in me, so I'm better off over here by far.

JL"

From what I can see, Crimpergirl brings out the worst in you, in either forum, and from what she tells me, she gets a real laugh out of doing so."

Good to know I'm keeping the mood light. The fact that you've swerved the thread into this rut is another reason to have two channels for this forum--one for climbing related stuff, another for us to clown around.

I have done bad too. I understood your comments were business comments and the first lines of my reply addressed to you were business comments too. Then, without noting it, I started babbling about the forum in general. It's my opinion that an active and even controversial forum is highly beneficial to the Supertopo brand, and that the less it's moderated, the less time and resource it cost's Chris.

For everybody else

This thread cracks me up. It's like when the bad kids are lined up in front of mom and dad to explain why they were fighting and they start pointing fingers and fighting all over again!

Jeff, kudos for coming out of the closet, I mean, boardroom. Can I call you Jeff in the forum now or do you want to stay "fatty?"

very well written by LEB and supporting another member is a very honorable thing to do. she is right and has the right perspective on the male psyche and ego,hopefully chris will get the gist and do the right thing. looking forward to the outcome

When the forum first started, it was infinitely nastier and unhelpful than it is now. Some folks like it that way, but I think it got better when you had to register.

Are you kidding? The forum was pretty useless before registration.
It was far, far worse than the RC.com Community forum ever was.
I had stopped using the forum several months before Chris started the registration.

I think Chris would be right not to fiddle too hard with a good thing. A little medicine is all it takes.

Chris isn't going to do much fiddling. As he said, he's too busy actually climbing.
It's still pretty much anything goes––he just doesn't want to see mutilated
bodies on the site, and he doesn't want the political or flaming threads to cause
the climbing threads to be overshadowed too much.

My guess is that we got a tad overheated here and there at the wrong time, and that Hardman and others pulled Chris's chain about it. (Sorry Dave if I'm speculating about you)

That's a pretty good guess, but let me clarify from my viewpoint:
A couple weeks ago, Chris asked me to put up a Tahoe Bouldering photo-gallery for him.
I was in BC for 2 1/2 weeks, so I did it last monday before I headed up to Lover's Leap for the (last) week.
Chris was disappointed that the gallery post stayed on the front page only briefly,
because of a lot of the OT posts that were being made.
Also, I indeed e-mailed Chris (as I'm sure did others) that an extremely graphic pic of a guy whose head
had been blown off was posted to the site. So it was a matter of timing.

You gotta love Chris' hands-off approach to forum management.
I believe it has lots to do with why it's so popular these days.
Simply put, Chris doesn't want rotten.com or ogrish.com pics posted here.
I actually told Chris that I personally didn't have a problem with the scantily-clad
pics that were being posted (ha ha), and that they appeared to be popular with others....
In fact, if any females are offended, perhaps Waterchossguy could also post
some shirtless dude pics for the ladies––in order to balance things out a bit.

Rumors of problems in the forum are greatly exaggerated. We have a thread on adjustable daisies with the Lord Gods of Aid weighing in with technical details and slander too. My guess is that too restrictive a forum will kill the content that brings their perverse minds in for a visit, and then get sucked into helping with info.

When the forum first started, it was infinitely nastier and unhelpful than it is now. Some folks like it that way, but I think it got better when you had to register."

Hardman then wrote:

Are you kidding? The forum was pretty useless before registration.
It was far, far worse than the RC.com Community forum ever was.
I had stopped using the forum several months before Chris started the registration.

Karl now writes:

I'm agreeing with you Dave. For the sake of balance there were some sickos that liked the slander fest that the pre-reg forum was. I think registration was good for it.

Peace

karl

PS Keeping any Gallery post up is going to require some kind of sticky or intentional bumping. Even the climbing threads will sink it asap.

My two cents: In the short time that I have been visiting and contributing (I hope constructively) to the forum, I have gotten to like it and the people on it, even Michael Moron, Mountain Man, Fattrad and HowweirdDean (I just don't agree with them). While I never left climbing, I did curtail my climbing activities over the years, but now that I am ramping up that activity, this site provides me with a lot of useful info. I thank you all, sincerely.

I think it would be a shame if Chris had to regulate it much more than it is. I think as a community we should go in for a bit more self-regulation. Flaming is okay I guess, though sometimes it can get out of hand, but the sexual crap and pictures of dead people are OTT. That said, I did put a link up to a climbing accident video that, on reflection, may have been a bit tasteless, so I'll delete it if it hasn't already been.

Dirtineye wrote:
From what I can see, Crimpergirl brings out the worst in you, in either forum, and from what she tells me, she gets a real laugh out of doing so."

JL responds:
Good to know I'm keeping the mood light. The fact that you've swerved the thread into this rut is another reason to have two channels for this forum--one for climbing related stuff, another for us to clown around.

JL

CG exclaims:
I actually do some work for a couple of days and come back to this? I keep reading Dirt's comment and can't decide if he was being funny, or jabbing a knife in my back. (I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted your comments Dirt. Either way, you're still a bud).

Just to be clear, I think JL is awesome, have nothing but respect for him and his sense of humor, and am thrilled that he's willing to engage in occasional banter with me. Actually, this goes for all of you here. I don't agree with everyone on this site, but I am happy to have made everyone's acquaintance. Thanks for letting me play in the sand box!

I have enjoyed greatly the insights of Lois (LEB) and Scott (climberweenie) here on the nature of online forums (specifically, thread drift and why it can be good and bad). Many other folks obviously have a good understanding of it as well.

I agree with Lois that dirtineye's posts are not a troll. They are straight and deep attacks, pure acid in my view. I don't know why toulumne*rainbow states they are a troll; perhaps to "make friends with a bully"? Perhaps just a moment of weakness on her part, or maybe a "reverse troll" (i.e. trolling dirtineye to see if he bites)? As others have noted, this thread is a perfect illustration of what is good and bad about the forum. Lots of good viewpoints, plus some bad stuff which may remind us of the potential "chilling effect" of (anonymous) repeated negative attacks. Such personal attacks can create a lot of "lurkers" or people who feel burned and do not want to participate again, because they do not want to waste time defending themselves against anonymous flamers/haters or spend time trying to classify a post as a troll or not. (Shack's post early in this thread [8/27, 5:49pm] is a relatively friendly example of what I'd call an "honest troll", where he makes a hopefuly sarcastic comment, then inserts a few blank lines and says "just kidding", but unfortunately even this style of post could be abused and used to make intentional attacks).

The original issue of this thread is the future of the supertopo forum. Having two forums might work, but I have my doubts. If the drift into nonclimbing thoughts is what makes threads interesting to the folks who write good posts, they may find the "climbing only" forum boring and only read and post to the "nonclimbing" forum. Or they might move there after some of their friends are banned. So most everything (including climbing posts) could switch to the "nonclimbing" forum and the other forum could become a ghost town. And while the occasional whack-a-mole (banning) technique works against obvious "bad guys" (death threats, extremely offensive photos), I don't think it can work against personal attacks, because they can be watered down slightly to squeeze just under the "banned" threshold.

It seems like the only clear advantage of making two forums is that it does not require any new programming/testing, i.e. it's a potentially free solution for Chris, which would be nice. I think most people would like a simple structure which would make the forum 99% "self-policing", something like the feedback system on ebay, which is not perfect but at least identifies the serious sellers. Scott suggested a voting method which is probably the fairest way to identify/block the "bad guys", but it would be expensive to implement. Unless someone competent wants to volunteer their time to develop and demo a working version of this sort of thing.

Here are my (possibly naive) 2 suggestions for structure that should be easy/cheap to implement to help make things at least more self-policing:

1. "Poster Info": In the vertical space below a poster's screen name, where it now says [xxxxxxxx] climber From: [often faked location], add two things:
1.A. date joined/registered [to identify bad guys coming back with new identities]; an icon like sunglasses on ebay could be used for this if joined in the last 30 days or so.
1.B. number of posts they have made in the past (or total when the thread is being read), if this information is already being kept track of. This would be a second indicator of how experienced the person is on the forum and whether we should take them seriously or whether they are newer and might need more explanations.

2. "Thread Pruning": Give the person who originates a thread a "Delete" button on all followup posts (not just on their own posts). Clearly easy to implement, and it lets the originator of a thread "control its destiny". This kind of local control can definitely stop personal attacks, with no moderation effort required by Chris. A slightly more powerful version would be to have a "Delete all posts by user" button, but it would be harder to implement. This type of Delete button does not solve all problems, because some people may be reluctant to use it or are not paying attention to their thread. It also does not stop "bad guys" from originating posts.
A short message like "Post deleted by [originator]" should replace the deleted post, so that readers can see when pruning is occuring, and who was being pruned. Incidentally, a similar short message should appear to replace a post deleted by the person who wrote it or by a moderator. So the post is still observed even though its content is deleted/replaced by the short message. If the user is later banned the post disappears completely.

Here are some additional suggestions which would be helpful but are probably not cheap to implement

3. "Thread Origination": To solve the problem of "bad guys" originating threads, have some kind of statistically based scoring system to identify them. I haven't tried such a statistical analysis myself, so the ideas below are rough and probably not the best that could be done.
3.A. If we agree that many baddies register under free email spots like hotmail.com, make a "suspect" list of such domains. If a user's email is on one of those lists, create a "Delete" button available to Chris and a few trusted moderators. I know "moderator" is a bad word to some, but it seems there are people who spend a lot of time on this forum, have good judgement, and would probably like to help defend the innocent in some capacity like this.
3.B. New (say under 7 days) registrants from suspect domains could be automatically blocked from originating threads. Or their proposed thread could be queued for approval by a moderator (default approval in 24 hours if no moderator objects). This capability is rather restrictive and should only be used if there is a big problem of new registrants trying to avoid past banning. It would at least not block newbies from .edu domains from asking their climbing questions.
3.C. New registrants can only originate one thread in the first 24 hours.
3.D. No multiple screennames/personalities from a single email address. I think we already have this? I.e. once banned, always banned. Fairly easy to work around via hotmail.com, though.
3.E."History Score": For folks who have been around for awhile, and are sometimes good and sometimes bad :-) have a history score system to decide if they can originate threads. Subtract points if they have had their followup posts pruned by at least 2 different originating users. Add points for the number of posts they have made in the past (say more than 30 days ago).

4. "Image Posting": same ideas as for "Thread Origination" (3.E.). Block users from posting images if they have a low history score. Block or queue (for moderation) image posting by New registrants from suspect domains.

5. "Probation/Delaying": If banning (and reregistration to circumvent banning) is a problem, put a user with a long history but a low history score "on probation", where their posts are automatically delayed for 2 hours before they appear on the forum. This would be a status short of being fully banned, but also without the usual rights. It might also give them an incentive to think more carefully about their post, since they know it will not show up for awhile anyway.

The above suggestions are mostly fairly mechanical, so they should not require much intervention/judgement calls by any moderators. If people want more human intervention, it would be nice to add points for people using a real name, and subtract points for negative/attacking posts that are not pruned and for ambiguous or excessive trolls (i.e. Juan de Fuca/Jeff Batten, unless he has suddenly gotten funnier - I don't read any threads he originates). Or a voting system could be used to rate posts.

Well, hopefully the easy suggestions can improve things, and the harder ones are there if someone wants to volunteer to do the programming/testing.

for all the so called climbers out there who talk so tough on these forums, believe it or not u could be cranking 12's and 13's, but if u showed your colors out there as u show them here u'll would not be treated as climbers. climbers have respect for others, that is an inherent quality in a climber that u inculcate when u take up this sport as any other sport too.. .so let's drop all this pseudo behaviour and try to keep this forum the best way we can

Clint, I love you like an older brother, but you just scribed out the Terms of Service for rockclimbing.com.

NO!!

For the love of climbing forums Chris, LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

Pick out the most vocal of Matt's critics (since he seems to be the current poster child for the ills of cyberspace), I don't care which one. Take a good look at THEIR contributions over the last year...

That is all this is ever going to be about... the desire of some to control the words of others. And they will use any means at their disposal to do it too.

i would love to see how some of these overtly masculine rightwingers would react if some chiquita started posting shots of male underwear models or somesuch (melisa? kate? anyone? it sure won't be me, as much as i think the judys would quietly dig it).

I am totally comfortable with porn. What I am uncomfortable with is hysterical women who fear free thought & freedom of speech, no matter how ugly. Jeez, you act like it was a hate crime, and not just some spewing. Look at the source!

Just like I said to the mother of the screaming child in line at the market: Give that child what he wants or give him what he needs!

Afraid of a man and his words! We should be afraid of people who have no problem becoming an aunt of yet more kids!!!

Maybe T*R is just helping Mr. Bush out with his little problem of body replacement in Iraq by encouraging breeding. Way to go.

Oh, my copy of 'Power Exchange' just came! Gotta go hide in a corner and have fun.

AaaKkkkkk, Don't Split The Forum! It won't do a thing to keep the threads in line.

The biggest reason for the success of this forum is the diversity of the folks posting -- there's a commuity here like no other. Monkey with it and you'll blow a darned good thing. Like Baba said, we've got amazing folks reading and posting--that would disappear fast if this thing started to have real rules.

Like a dad who spread his seed too far, C-Mac wants to make sure his unruly family behaves long enough at the dinner table so that everybody gets a chance at the veggies, and that nobody gets harmed sticking their arm out for seconds.

But some kidz hate veggies.

And that's cool, they don't have to eat 'em. As long as they don't blow it for those that like the nutrition.

But restrictions on content, on who can (or can't) post, yadda yadda, and you might as well watch FoxNews, the never-say-anything-bad-about-the-Administration network. The people who want the real dirt know to look elsewhere.

I'm here because you never know what a gacked out climber might do next, and what could be more fun. Sometimes we just talk trash after a good day on the stone, sometimes we're just trashed and talk stoned. It's all good fodder for the community. That is as long as you don't air your personal BS and you don't overstep the line of how you'd treat your good friends. Cause that's what this community is all about. A gathering of folks with nothing holding them together other than a bent for the edge.

"i would love to see how some of these overtly masculine rightwingers would react if some chiquita started posting shots of male underwear models or somesuch (melisa? kate? anyone? it sure won't be me, as much as i think the judys would quietly dig it)."

Mutt, I am not angry at you. I feel deep sorrow for your pathetic position in life. The lifestyle you choose to follow, you yourself are having trouble accepting. This is evident by your obsession with real men of the right, your apparent infatuation with male underwear models, and your denial of interest in such things, a true indicator of an individual struggling to come to grips with their own sexuality, or lack thereof.

Like I said in another thread, keep posting Mutt, you will continue to prove to everyone what you are...a very confused and psychotic little boy.

I look at all the treads on this and other sites as living things that reflect the natrual tendencies of the contributors. Some like to have everything follow a neat and ordered progression with no deviation from the term paper form, where a thesis is sated at the outset and we all elaborate on same. Others fused to an agenda try and wrench every toopic onto their cherished turf. Some repet the same arguments and don't listen to or learn anything from what others are saying. Some of us with ADD range far and wide just for the hell of it. Some take pot shots out of bordome and frustration. Some feign offense and tred imaginary high ground. Others posture and mope and carp and whine and ridicule. Take any of these perspectives out of the mix and the entertainment value pluments.

DMT said:"Someone says that to me in the supermarket and I'm gonna poke my screaming kid with a sharp stick just to make a point.

Get it... point???

You kidless folks will never understand, but after a while, us parents can tune out screaming children, hardly hear em atall.

And we mostly don't give a sh#t if you folks have a problem with that. Seriously, we don't.

You don't like our screaming kids in the grocery store? Go some where f*#king else! The store is for US anyway fools."

For once in my life I agree with milkdud 100%. So well put. If my kid was having a bad day and fussing a bit in the store and some idiot told me to quiet the kid I would slash the tires on his shopping cart. Did it ever occurr to these fools that maybe, just maybe, the kid is NOT misbehaving, but has another, possibly health related issue?

Thanks DMT for standing up for us folks with kids. We are tired of being oppressed! :)

Pictures of someone who croaked, then Bill calls Werner a snake? A smooth, scaly satin satan? Picture Eve on the eve of the fall of man, in the Garden, No picture her not that's Knotty; we all watch dirtineye talk potty (the pot of dirt thrown at the end of the rainbow) Brother we are so motivated to remove your mote from the board in our own eye, aye, I owe room and board in the Burgerking sandwich shop of our minds, I raise a toast to Milk as we discover that fattrad is the elephant in the living room The bill trolls, the bell tolls; we see Karlee with hair up there, before he dipped his knoggin in Nair; the truth revealed about 46 Bear; seeing a 6-pack of Rackulated's Mac almost gave this geezer a heart attack --

its hard to tell what is going on with the forum at any one time. there are always some great posts. and, there always seem to be a few posts that I read and cringe thinking "wow, i am creating a place for people to express that type of personal attack/nasty stuff... yikes"

i think the forum needs some better ways too keep the nasty stuff out... but i can't think of any drastic changes that need to be implemented right now.

the webmaster and i are looking into many of the suggestions in the posts above and welcome more ideas. but we do understand that we can't make any major tweaks without changing the whole nature of the forum. and we dont want to do that.

please continue to email me when they come across stuff that is particularly nasty.

hope that you are all enjoying the summer and getting out on the rocks!

SlabMaster

Mountain climber

NorCal

Sep 4, 2005 - 02:28pm PT

I'm not sure I understand. Does the variety of topics on the website prevent climbers from easy access to climbing advice, warnings, ect.? Or is it just that the forum has been co-opted unexpectedly for a social purpose? Have there been complaints about certain threads/writers? It seems to me that the position expressed in "the future of the forum" is rather like that of a parent who is angry with her child for not turning out the way she wanted. If your child grew up to have a full, rich life, but one that involved activities that you did not approve of (i.e. rock climbing), wouldn't you still be proud of them? Likewise, if this site has turned into a social forum which allows climbers to stay in touch, discuss issues, and become a more cohesive, tightly knit community, then it has value, I think.

One way to keep some of the "nasty" stuff out would be to grant moderator privilages to some of the more level headed and "clean" posters of the site. Trust them to help you keep it clean and positive.

of course that approach brings up other issues and drawbacks also. But if done in moderation, then moderators might not be such a bad idea to try.

One way to keep some of the "nasty" stuff out would be to grant moderator privilages to some of the more level headed and "clean" posters of the site. Trust them to help you keep it clean and positive. "

Well, I am the only one to fit that description, so I guess the job is mine.

Seriously though, bad idea, would just turn this forum into another rc.com like place with power hungry moderators running around like they were actually important or something. I kind of like the whack-a-mole approach with the mysterious and anonymous whacking of certain posts and users.

It was kind of funny when I had Matt and his friend Bob(waterchestnut)believing I was the whack-a-mole! Warms my heart to know I cost Matt a 12-pack(or was it a six-pack?)

"bad idea, would just turn this forum into another rc.com like place with power hungry moderators running around like they were actually important".........right on the money with this one.............

Gut feelings:
I haven't read through all of the posts here but as a newcomer I wanted to say it's a relief that Chris McN staffer at ST acted to discuss this issue here.
I don't read each and every thread, I select ones about climbing (mostly). I felt kind of like a sucker when I read through a lot of good comments on how to improve climbing and then hit the one with a rather unhappy looking female of some young age posing apparently without any clothes on hooked up in a harness. Feeling about as sorry for the person who posted it, wondering why, I felt even worse about how life's circumstances in our country brought someone to this point.
But really in a selfish way, I didn't want to know about it and I would not have chosen to take a look had I known what was coming up. So I think Chris' idea about giving a fair warning or just informative stuff about content might be useful. It's not too judgmental to characterize a thread with , "nudity abounds here". That way the young girl posing can be happy, the poster can feel good, and I don't have to get involved or have my visual environment impacted adversely.

I think the comments about the forum's public nature are important because not only are comments and posts public but the world wide net is public around the world. So, for example, those females already having a difficult time say somewere in the mideast about which I have read in international mags in articles on them climbing there--heavily wrapped in their robes, may find, if they do have access to this forum, that their elders were right in that climbing is for those sinners over there. (so to speak). Or just as sad, the underage or provincial kid here will see that boy we climbers sure do have some strange ideas.

And as a matter of fact it should be really evident that we do now here in our country have way too many superior moralists overseeing and intervening in some very personal areas of our lives from time to time, or with domestic surveillance and politics who knows maybe everyday. It would be nice to believe that the good will win, but I think we can see that perhaps sometimes the innocent are hurt, or become victims, and sometimes it's just plain old human nature, people make mistakes. So why have a website that just goes on to explore indiscriminately the range of humanity on what are generally acknowledged as usually uniquely private individual issues and choices.

So I don't want to have to even think about whether the young girl posing in the photo on how to improve climbing who is in a harness of some nature and without clothes on it would appear, is underage or posing against her will or whatever, I don't want to have to wonder, is there something wrong going on that I have any responsibility for either in law or morally because now it is in front of my face. I'd rather have the choice to let it go elsewhere,on some thread that says " see picture of female without clothes on hanging in harness" and let others figure out whether it is viewable or not.
Finally I gotta say, I haven't climbed out west but as a solo climbing woman venturing into remote places to climb, I'd think twice about taking a chance of meeting up with some of these kinds of characters where I don't find civilization's protections surrounding me. Sure, you always take a chance and one crummy post among so many interesting other ones is not to rule the day. But in the end why you choose to climb somewhere is based on a feeling about how likely it is that you will enjoy climbing and not find strangers who make you feel uncomfortable, or who are threatening or just plain violent. Maybe there is no problem and it is innocent fun. Maybe it's a bunch of creeps. Who knows, and why do I want to go there to find out.
I'd like to interact with other posters on climbing issues on this forum, or at least on content that I would not be ashamed to have shown by Borat. I'm not speaking from a position of purity from a high place, I'm just saying I prefer to have a choice on what pops up on my screen.
So I think Chris's ideas will make that possible.

totally agree...seems like any time someone asks a serious climbing related question most of the replys are snide and uninformative, albeit witty and humurous. it makes for a enviornment where people, myself included are hesitant to ask questions because of the inevitable one-liners that will ensue. the amount of knowledge and experience that lurks is so great and i thank all those that are willing to share it with others.

I always thought the Taco would have jumped the shark when the current days topic wouldn't fit on one page. (i.e. when more than 30 topics were posted on that day) Now it's approaching two pages for the days topics (approaching 60).

But so what. I can scan two pages and see if there's topics I'm interested in. I don't want to split the forum and have to check two places to see if there's topics I'm intested in.

I only care that people accurately label their topics.

The only addition I'd like to see is a form of flagging, like on Craigslist. If enough (3?) users flag a post/topic, it's deleted.

Punjab said: 'seems like any time someone asks a serious climbing related question most of the replys are snide and uninformative, albeit witty and humurous.'

How is this any different than a day at the rocks? This is exactly how my friends treat me and each other. I think it's great that this attitude actually carries over to the net. If the question is serious it gets serious answers too.

I think it's awesome that Chris's original two posts on this thread clearly outlined what the forum is intended for. Here it is, in quotes below:

"Our goal with the climbing forum is to provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations."

"the forum was intended to be a place to share climbing info and be a resource for the climbing community"

I say, take the political BS elsewhere, and, for that matter, all the rest of the non-climbing stuff elsewhere, too.
If I want politics and bickering, I'll go to a forum intended to cover those topics. And I'd prefer to listen to people who are educated and knowledgable about it, rather than the oft-biased, polarized ranters often found here.
Though from time to time I'm guilty of being drawn into other conversations, I mainly come here for climbing info. That's it. If you have something else to share, or are interested in somethings else, I say, maybe you should go somewhere else, and stop cluttering up a privately owned web forum clearly intended for climbing related topics.
This is not a campfire; it's someone else's private property, and we're graciously allowed visitation rights for a relatively specific purpose that's pretty clearly outlined. See original posts by the owner on this very thread.
Maybe in that way, we can prune some of the blatantly irrevalent topics and more importantly, some of the petty bickering, too.
Not really trying to police the forum, here, just saying, maybe it's better used for its intended purpose and not forced into something else.

There's an ebb and flow to the forum that's directly related to what is occurring in the wider world. I guarantee it will pick up again as soon as something interesting happens worth a good verbal battle.
Leave the forum as is; it works. Whacking posts showing dead bodies or porn is fine with me. Most people on ST are mature enough to draw a line for themselves as to what is appropriate. A few seem to have difficulty in doing so. Those should be admonished and dumped if they continue to abuse.
On the other hand, how about a separate forum for the subject of Cats.

Climbing is the common thread that brings us here, but if it was all climbing, it would be pretty boring. Climbing's great, but there's a lot more to life.

It's interesting to click on the recent posts in people's profiles. CMac's posts are about 40% on climbing topics. As are mine. The people who say they want only climbing topics that I've checked are up to 60% climbing.

hmmm
as someone that prolly posts more non-climbing than climbing, this does give pause for thought...

i'm gonna try
1) climb more. take pics. post the TR
2) nuke some of the non - climbing threads i started once the point has been made
3) bump for climbing. bump for other cool threads. bump more for climbing...
4) learn to ignore some of the other stuff

I'll say it again: it's nice of you both to stick up for Crowley. You both profess to know him in real life (which ST is becoming less (more?) like every day).

But here's the thing: Matthew Moore, as A. Crowley calls himself, has not revealed to any of us ST people any of his good qualities. You apparently are privy to them. We are not. All we see from Crowley is hateful drivel.

Now, no one said Crowley, or Matthew Moore, was a dog hater. As gw, he said nasty things to be provocative, which is standard Crowley crap. Being a provocateur is what he's all about, and as such he can easily put on a "dog hater" hat and post nasty stuff on an otherwise sympathetic thread. Which pretty much amounts to being a troll, but a particularly nasty one with a superiority complex which has convinced him that ANYTHING he has to say is worthy, relevant and right. And he does it all from his mom's basement!

As LEB pointed out, the only sensible thing Crowley ever posted was copied from someone else - some attorney's advice on how to protect your identity. (LEB, read closer - Crowley is not saying he is an attorney in that post. Maybe there's another in which he does? I actually don't read much of what he writes).

So you can demonize me if you want. But I only deserve a sliver of it. You see, I am out to rid ST of Crowley and there may be some collateral damage.

When climbers aren't posting TRs, we need something else to do with our eyes. You've posted some AWESOME threads, and like most of the interesting people on this site, I like the variety, too.

Russ and Susan post about the Diet Challenge. That's not climbing, but it sure as hell is funny. Dirtineye is in the hospital. Not climbing, but many of us are interested big time. Woody's crotch and Ouch!'s hysterical creations are pretty far removed from a TR, but this site would be damn boring without them.

Don't lose perspective on the many layers of life that we as climbers enjoy...sharing them gives us all more empathy with other posters, and a better understanding of ourselves.

Sorry Wild Bill--You're letting your animosity blind you. Crowley is about politics, not pooches. He's also about sparring with those who can defend themselves, not innocent bystanders, pets, or handicapped children.

You're on a mission to destroy Crowley. Wonderful. Have fun. You obviously don't have anything else in your life.

But you're the one looking like the real jerk here when you say "You see, I am out to rid ST of Crowley and there may be some collateral damage."

BTW, I'm not the moderator here, but if I was I'd have pulled Crowley's plug a long time ago. You and nita are the ONLY posters to EVER say a positive thing about Crowley. Aside from a few who have, in the same breath, asked him to STFU.

why is ANY one of OUR "Ways of posting" ANY more VALID simply because they are a MORE accepted way???...

As individuals etc...

how many times has it been written...

"if you don't like the post...

don't read the post...

if you want climbing related topics to surface more...

then YOU should personally POST on them and they will SURface...

how many times do you see the "Lurker" only come out just to complain about there not being enough CLIMBING topics on the front page so on and so on and then they go back in hiding waiting to POST only to COMPLAIN???...

Fuking deal with it for what it is and don't change ANYTHING but yourself...

The Fet wrote:I don't want to split the forum and have to check two places to see if there's topics I'm interested in.

I only care that people accurately label their topics.

Climbing is the common thread that brings us here, but if it was all climbing, it would be pretty boring. Climbing's great, but there's a lot more to life.

It's interesting to click on the recent posts in people's profiles. CMac's posts are about 40% on climbing topics. As are mine. The people who say they want only climbing topics that I've checked are up to 60% climbing.

Ignore the inane posters and topics, you know who they are

I agree Fet.

LEB wrote:There is a lot of bickering and simplistic posting which does not say much.

I am particularly NOT very impressed with what Crowley is adding to the forum since his recent arrival esp in view of the quantity of his posts. I do believe it is affecting overall character of the forum.

I agree with much of that Lois

WoodyST wrote:There's an ebb and flow to the forum that's directly related to what is occurring in the wider world. I guarantee it will pick up again as soon as something interesting happens worth a good verbal battle.

Leave the forum as is; it works. Whacking posts showing dead bodies or porn is fine with me. Most people on ST are mature enough to draw a line for themselves as to what is appropriate. A few seem to have difficulty in doing so. Those should be admonished and dumped if they continue to abuse.

Patrick, it's not so much a negative thing. It's just easier to have discussions (disagreements) in an internet forum because it keeps things clean. You can't yell, cut somebody off, or physically attack somebody. You just get to to the nitty gritty of the discussion at hand. Ya know?

"I happen to know who Crowley is, and he is not gw. I used to know his sweet old dog.... Crowley can be an ass,and anstigator,
but he can also be nice. He is also not a trust-funder...he works and he adores his son. "

i don't mind non climbing topics when they're not politics and religion. on this forum there is a wonderful diversity of personalities who are knowledgeable on a wide range of topics, and a diversity of perspectives and life experience. that's helpful to many supertalko posters.

more than anything, i appreciate reading the real world wisdom of the older generation that posts here, and that i can ask about things like my truck slipping out of 4wd and get good advice when i don't really know who else to ask. i know there are car forums, but i trust this population the most.

Wow! This is a wild thread and has been wandering around for a couple of years now. I appreciate what Chris' original intent was but I think this forum has evolved into a much more expansive and much greater thing. It'a a gathering ground for the climbing community of a type which the viral marketers would pull their nose hairs out to achieve. ST is a gathering of like minded people discussing what ever it is that's on their minds at the time and needs no external policing whatsoever. I think we do a pretty damn good job of it ourselves. Just like we would at the C4 campfire, we listen for a while then, if (when) someone gets out of line, we tell that person to back off. We argue passionately, pontificate, spew, spray and poke fun at our friends. Once in a while, while we're sitting around that fire swapping stories, some young kid will walk in ask about route beta or which cam we like best. That's fine, and just as in the campfire scene, the kid (sorry Kurt) will hear plenty of wise cracking and catch a lot of sh#t, but eventually one of the "old guard" will pull the kid aside and give him the best route beta possible or download better gear advice than he'll get and any shop on the planet.

We need to cherish, nuture and jealously guard what it is we've built here. If you want a forun that deals specifically with gear or routes or ethics or equalized anchors or ice tool, you can find plenty of active ones at rc.com, neclimbs.com or mountainproject.com. If, on the other hand, you want to join in on a freewheeling conversation about whatever it is that inspires at the moment us or pisses us off or has our curiosity going, welcome to the Taco.

I agree with Mal, though I do sometimes wish that SuperTopia had a way of voting people off the campfire. Or perhaps throwing them in. In-person interaction has built in governing mechanisms, but less so the electronic kind.

The fact of the matter is that rockclimbing BB's have an seasonal ebb and flow. Even before its ultimate demise (although I hear some denizens still are holding on) wreck.climbing would get pretty lean during this time of year. Those of us in warmer parts of the country forget that many people don't do a lot of climbing this time of year.

i'll throw some more support Crowley's way. i've never met him, and don't think i've read any of his posts, but he is annoying the exact population that this thread was started to address. anyone pissing off the pundits that badly is a good thing.

who would have guessed, the way to get LEB to leave was to add the same inane chatter to the OT wankery that s/he adds to climbing topics.

Wild Bill--You (L) and nita are the ONLY posters to EVER say a positive thing about Crowley.

Chiloe--Funny, that isn't true either.

Wild Bill--Who else?

Uh, 'cuse me WB, but uh...he's right there in front of your eyeballs, friend. Missed a few other things, have you? Too bent on your petty vengeance to see the whole picture maybe? Kind of like the photo of the cross-eyed mentally handicapped kid you posted and ridiculed...maybe you're missing something here, too.

L, you seem like a decent sort, but it is you whose vision is clouded here. Crowley behaves like a jerk on ST, every day and with almost every post. And every day, someone else besides me or the other usual Crowley haters comes forward to complain about him. No one but you and nita have come forward to defend him.

Anyway, I'm done with you and Crowley. For the sake of ST I'll try to ignore his insulting lameness.

right when i am about to whack a mole... someone makes a post like maldaly and it seem like everything is cool. this is why i dont moderate the forum... i dont know what to do. seems like over time the forum goes through its highs and lows. maybe it would be better if i banned some folks... but there is always the chance the you just give someone the juice they need to become REALLY annoying.

i guess ideally you could have your own personal forum filter... and not have to ready posts by the people you think are just spraying uncontrollably... but not sure if that is so practical.

overall, i think its best to:

a) ignore the lame off topic posts
b) ignore the lame posters and just respond to the interesting folks. i think most annoying posters are just looking for attention

maybe i am better at this because i have been looking at this thing forever... and now have a pretty thick skin.

Can certainly see your dilemma, but Maldaly is right. This place is great because of the odd personalities, the fireworks, the interesting, controvertial and off-beat topics. Not always pleasant, and sometimes incredibly irritating--but then, so is life. So is climbing. And I'm sure flying has its moments of unadulterated unpleasantness.

Once in a while poo gets flung...and then some hysterical song gets posted and we're all wetting our pants laughing. Check out the "Post Your Art" and "Post Your Pet" threads. Talk about a great community of folks willing to share. It's amazing.

CM, I have not been a "topian" for long, and it took me a bit to figure out what I could contribute to the forum. At first, my political interest lead me to be riled up and fire back--but then I realized that I got more satisfaction by taking a positive stance towards posts. Sure, I sometimes want to go off (maybe I have), but at the end of the day, I still have to go to sleep with my conscience. You are right, there are highs and lows (even in 6 months), and we must realize that internetting is an evolving, unpredictable "force"--maybe a modification here or there is in order, but one thing is certain, you can't choose your kid's mate or in-laws and in the end, order is realigned and ebbs and flows with the seasons (and characters).

When Montuckans are in communication with Valley Rats and Cal Jammers you know that the "cat is out of the bag", and the diversity which we all share must be embraced and tolerated just as those pesky and loving "in-laws".

I think banning a person with an explanation if they are "extremely" out of line will not be a bad idea. (Especially if they are threatening others.)
We can also help a person that is getting "really weird" by banning them for a day to allow them to sober up, get sane and save themselves. (Though I would also save such action if this behavior is extreme and degenerative to others."

Yet monitoring on any level beyond that would make it uninhabitable to most climbing persona. We are an unusual odd bunch and this site reflects this aspect very well.
I think we as a group need to argue, be offensive and controversial about everything. It is also interesting to see how many of us both think and "not think" about certain things. How diverse we are and what commonalities we do share. It is fascinating to observe and participate with the dialogues of this forum.

Most of the negative behavior I think is actually good for us. (I would just like to prevent actual threats and personal attacks that might transfer into the physical plane. It sometimes sounds too real for comfort.)

This is a great place to kick things around and I wouldn't like it to be changed or sanitised in any way. The mix of legends and joe blow's is what makes it such a unique place that other forums would die for.

There are plenty of other places to post specific questions about gear, routes, etc. The difference here is that you may actually get a response from someone who not only climbed the route but may of actually put up the first ascent.

Thanks for Chris for providing this feature and keeping it real. We don't need no damn pretty icons!

There is a way to keep everyone happy. Simply add a box which the user must check when entering the a msg labeling it climbing or not climbing related. Additionally add a switch that the forum reader can select that allows them to see only climbing related stuff, non climbing related stuff, or all posts. This allows everyone to have what they want. Also it would be pretty easy to self police this. The ammount of coding needed to do this is little (hell I'd even do it)...

kev,
One of the beauties of this forum is the surprise you get when the thread drifts from a route beta request, to first ascent stories, to annecdotes of the personal hygiene of the belayer, to reminiscing about the celebratory bottle of wine that was busted out at the summit. I love this place because you never know where you're going to end up. It's kind of like listening to Trey Anastasio instead of the Allman Brothers. They both take you on an incredible musical journey but when listening to the Allman Brothers you know that you'll end up comfortably back where you started. With Trey, on the other hand, you never know where you're going, let alone where you've been. Sometimes I'm in the mood for wandering around with Trey and sometimes just crankin' up the volume for another session of Hot Lanta is the shitz.

This is not an easy forum to participate in. You need a sense of adventure coupled with a bit of recklessness and some humor. If you can't handle being poked fun of; if you are afraid to smack down someone who gets in your face, or if you if you like straight, level trails and jug hauls in the gym, then this forum probably isn't for you.

Thank you, Chris. I think you are taking the right steps. Some won't like it, but most will, I believe. It will be a better place. People can not only share campfire stories, history, news, etc., but they can sound off and be funny and sometimes purposefully silly or stupid, but those who have nothing but malice, profanity, contention for contention's sake, and similar kinds of agendas in mind can be sent along their way...

I haven't checked to see if this has been said before, but maybe you could develop an easy method so that when a thread is started clearly for no other reason than to be offensive, you can prevent it from being "bumped." That way it will fade away out of sight quickly... The person will have had their "say," but it won't have to keep coming up in everyone's faces.

Pat - this thread died along time ago (original post was 2005!). Check the dates. Nothing was done about it because nothing is going to be done about it.

Fatrad is right (WTF?!?!?! I just said that?!?!?!?) - this place is near perfect and it ain't gonna change.

Edit: Furthermore, keep in mind that any modification to this forum requires programming. It ain't that broken around here so there's really no reason for Chris to invest in having the programming done.

Dicky - what's up with the sushi comment? Do the sushi threads bother you? just wondering....

Double Edit: Pat - what you may not realize is things were a lot worse around here not that long ago. In a relative sense you should be happy with the way things are. It's pretty darn tame all things considered.

for the past couple months I only started threads that were climbing/outdoor related - no problem. I started a parody thread because of all the silly threads and the political stuff - quite a bit. Whatever the game, I'm happy to play - sometimes it seems like a lot of nonsense - but then it evolves into some really worthwhile climbing history stuff/trip report or similar. I kinda tend to agree with Mal and stich, though, overall.

the forum was intended to be a place to share climbing info and be a resource for the climbing community.

it is now clearly a place where it is ok for:
sometimes over half the threads are political, not climbing
photos of dead people are posted
sexual photos are posted
personal attacks are as common as posting info intended to help people out

so, i am going to propose a few things for cleaning up the forum:

1) for a few weeks i am going to relatively little except delete the really offensive stuff. but i am going to ask that when people see stuff that violates the forum rules THEY NOT RESPOND TO IT IN THE POSTS. Instead, send me an email. hopefully the offensive posts will get burried if nobody responds to them.

2) if that doesnt work, we will get two forums. one for climbing related stuff and one for non-climbing related stuff. if anyone tries to hijack climbing related threads, we will just ban them. we don't have time to weed out the threads, so we will just be deleting the users.

3) all along the way, I'll be using the whack amole technique that other have suggested and seems to be relative effective. so that it is not a surprise to people, read the next part carefully: I do not have time to warn people to stop breaking the forum rules. every once in a while ill give warnings, but for the most part i won't. i like to spend my time climbing, not being a forum cop.

thanks in advance for making supertopo a great resource for climbers.

May be time to revisit this idea Chris. I'm not for censorship but maybe if this is supposed to be a climbing forum then some oversight to keeping the forum as you initially intended wouldn't hurt. This place is becoming (or has been) a disgrace. More stupid ass things concernig politics, old age problems, fund raisers, etc...

the forum was intended to be a place to share climbing info and be a resource for the climbing community.

I greatly respect the goal of forum with minimal moderation and subdivision, with the expectation that participants self-regulate their contribution. It's a worthy high road to be on.

However, it just doesn't seem like 'self-regulation' works here...as mentioned, there's a shiteload of OT topics (waaaaaay OT & or needlessly repetitive), and each person seems to feel it's there gawd-given right to post anything they want, and if it undermines the overall intent of this site & forum, eff 'em.

There's an awful lot of great content here that reflects all that is good about the climbing community...sadly, it too often reflects a lot of the self-oriented negativity, too.

Chris Mac, please keep it as it was/is. When I first started posting, what back in 2005 I think, I was being reactive in some instances, and then I hopefully learned.

I still believe your forum works fine, perhaps some exceptions, but most posters seem level headed.

Okay, a lot of times climbing threads take a back seat, so we just have to keeping bumping them up.

As for the political posts, well, if indeed if it is an online campfire, well, then let's just hope people keep their posts civil.

I agree, that some people, probably with no ill well or hard feelings, just their emotions or biases, may post some crap, I am sure that I may have, I hope not, but...

It is still the best climbing forum around. And I regularly visit the others. RC, IrishClimbing.ie, UK Climbing, Mountain project, SummitPost, and sometimes pay a visit to other forums Cascade climbers, etc...

And none are as fun as the Taco Stand.

But I still think the Taco Stand is the best. Self-control by some people may be needed, okay, but who am I to judge?

Don't get me wrong, but I thought the forum was the campfire and the other
tabs were for climber info.

Half the fun of climbing was sitting around the campfires, BSing,
Laughing,telling jokes, etc etc.

IMHO, ST viewings would drop off if this forum was just dedicated to climbing topics.

I believe Chris started the site(and forum) as a tool to disseminate climbing info. At least that was my take on it.

I greatly respect the goal of forum with minimal moderation and subdivision, with the expectation that participants self-regulate their contribution. It's a worthy high road to be on.

However, it just doesn't seem like 'self-regulation' works here...as mentioned, there's a shiteload of OT topics (waaaaaay OT & or needlessly repetitive), and each person seems to feel it's there gawd-given right to post anything they want, and if it undermines the overall intent of this site & forum, eff 'em.

There's an awful lot of great content here that reflects all that is good about the climbing community...sadly, it too often reflects a lot of the self-oriented negativity, too.

agree 100%

It will not be the same if Chris holds the reins too tightly...

hopefully, it will return to what it once was.

p.s. been here since 2002, so I remember the good times
p.p.s it seems to me the maturity level of the posters has been reduced
I thought we were adults, but guess I was wrong.

I am a very opinionated person, and I do not tend to contribute to many forums, perhaps once in a while to the BBC News/Sports forum, or the Irish Times forum, the Taco Stand has been the forum I seek out.

Though as a journalist, I have always tried to be objective, bar columns, editorials and commentaries, and I sincerely believe I have succeeded, unless some editor changes my copy... yeah it has happened more than I like.

At first on SuperTopo, I got into some flame wars, about guns and about what county grows the best grass (joking on that last one), about well...

I am 56 and since becoming a full-time carer for a lovely woman, I have sort of mellowed. At 56, mellowed, finally. Hmmm, I wonder if I have.

But for the most part, I like most of the threads and posts on the Taco Stand. I may have been or perhaps still guilty, but I just would like us all to keep the posts civil and not flame wars.

But then I have always been an idealist and not a realist.

Rock on.

And, while I have lived abroad for a number of years, I still have a rich American heritage and proud of it.

I'm all for off-topic stuff and funny/silly threads. But it's getting to where people won't just comment in a thread, they respond with a new thread.

It's just attention grabbing- the boob thing is an example- there are like 20 threads about the same thing.

Spot on! Our tendency toward multiple threads on the same topics crowds out the diversity that the first page deserves. To use ontheedge's example, it seems incongruous to me to nuke the "boobs" thread, but leave all the resultant threads intact. I wish there were some way that CMac could combine redundant threads. That, alone, would free up a lot more first page space.

This is all so funny. I did not realize this was a bumped thread - thought it was all new posts at first. This place is pretty awesome. I hardly look at much else on the net in terms of forums - this is were it's happening. We are in the midst of the Golden Age of Climbing Forums. What attracts me to here is the way subjects are all mixed up. It's more lifelike, more organic - has a more natural prioritizatioin going on. There's a search function if somebody wants to do some tuning. There's more to climbing than climbing. Viva ST!

The forum is instantaneously a better place with that weird chick - who doesn't even climb - deactivated. How many user names has she used - five? Six?

At any rate, Chris and RJ are remarkably restrained when it comes to banning or deactivating people. You have to be incredibly annoying to get kicked out of a forum that is virtually unmoderated. However when you cross the line, you pay the price. Good on them for showing some common sense. We don't need this place cluttered with thousands [thirty thousand? fifty thousand?] non-climbing posts.

For the record, I remain strongly in favour of some sort of division between "climbing stuff" and "non-climbing stuff", and once again volunteer my time to split it up.

For all the BS/OT that seems to get posted (most of which I never bother to click on -- remember that IS an option), it seems that things are fine the way they are.

It also seems that when someone gets way out of line they get banned.

rc.com is always an alternative for those of you who are so bothered by OT posts. Though, last I looked in there, they still have stupid flame wars -- just they are ostensibly climbing related flame wars. LOL

Limiting threads strictly to climbing topics would eliminate a lot of the laughs which compel me to waste entirely too much time here. There’s some good, intelligent discussion in some of the OT stuff - as well as a load of idiotic drivel.

I’d say keep the variety, but just go ahead and whack anything as offensive or disrespectful as dead bodies, triple x pornography or personal attacks which don’t make a point. Above all (or below all) whack the flame wars, of which there are some really ugly examples in this thread and are a waste of everybody’s time, as well as sullying the image of climbers.

But in the end it’s your forum and your time, Chris. Do what you have to, and thanks.

Don't change CM, the diversity is what keeps the Taco Stand, well, special.

Check the other sites out. No anarchy. Rule ST.

And, it is a big relief for me. Oops, Am I displaying too much?

I still climb, not like I used to, but I still have my dreams.

Actually Lois wasn't that bad (sometimes) for a non-climber, she gave me some good advice on medical training and being a nurse practitioner (didn't happen). And Jeff the tool wasn't that bad, offered me help for my mom's funeral.

I think I have won the EuroMillions tonight. Whoo weeee. €30m. Okay Jen and I will move to Grenada and I will pay St George's University to enroll me (endowment of some sort) in the joint MD/Veterinary program.

And a new rack of gear for (most) Supertopians.

And then I woke up.

Chris, you have a good site... an unique site, don't make it like the others.

The goal, just bump the good threads to the top, climbing threads or otherwise, worthwhile threads. The saying is that sh#t floats to the top, but as Taco Standers, we can change that.

I never looked at this as a "climbing" forum but rather a forum were climbers (our clan) can discuss anything and everything. That's the glory of the site - that it's not strictly beholden to describing face moves and cam placements. Supertopo is not a surrogate for the Climbing Mag. It's just a curiosity and a brain dump and repository for whatever is interesting. Since tastes differ, you'll not like everything, but placing restriction on the content to maintain some imagined editorial agenda is to cut the legs off this fandango, IMO.

Elcapinyourazz, I disagree. A lot of the older Taco Standers have children/grandchildren and such that are learning to climb. So if you want Geritol go to the AARP website.

The Taco Stand, in my opinion, has longevity. Perhaps you and I do not. But don't diss those of us who contribute. Yeah, at 56, I can't climb what I could at 26. Big deal. IMO this is a forum for people who have a common understanding and joy of climbing in life.

We cannot turn back the years, but we can rejoice, and for the younger ones, perhaps some more understanding.

Why such negativity? You wouldn't happen to be partners with Ken M, would you (okay mean on my part, but...)

And goddamn it, why can't some of you people reveal your real names. What are you afraid of?

And what, pray tell, have you contributed with actual climbing content? Just to be clear, mentioning that there is a quarry nearby your home does not constitute "climbing content".

Correct Elcapinyourazz, not much.

Just an affinity with fellow climbers.

I'd love to say I climbed the Cassin Ridge, or Walkers Spur on the Grand Jorasses, or Cho Oyu and Ama Dablam (my dreams).

I'd love to give trip reports on how I climbed in Patagonia. But I can't. Because I haven't. But I have been a climber for some 42 years. Not the best, not top notch, but it is my love.

Elcapinyourazz, if you cannot understand me, it is more your loss than mine. Just keep climbing to what your heart says and of course, good solids anchors. Seriously. I am not dissing you, but you seem to think not so much of me. Fine,that is your choice. I do not wish you ill. Be safe dude.

Good for them Anders. That just may prove a certain person wrong about this forum 'dying'. Like I wrote earlier, there are a new generation of climbers, and let's hope this forum helps them learn and develop. And enjoy the banter without the negative BS some people write.

And be able to see through such BS.

Anders, I have not been to the Rockies, Himalayas or Andes lately, just a little old crag nearby, just a local quarry as one poster puts it, that is my input on climbing content so such a person says.

Well, I'll post up my next trip to Everest (North Face) to shut this person up.

I never looked at this as a "climbing" forum but rather a forum were climbers (our clan) can discuss anything and everything.

Don't know how I became part of the clan or when I first I realized it. Climbing influenced me on a very deep level, and for some reason I consider climbers to be my peers and see things the way I do, even if they are expressing totally opposite views on some subject. (guns, boobs or whatever) I have no idea why but its something that stuck a long time ago.

There is definitely a campfire environment here and I wouldnt trade it for reading climbing magazine. I'm also more interested in stories about some gumbies learning how to rappel on El Cap, than about some famous name dude and the incredible things he can do. Epics, heroic failures, near death experiences, total screw-ups, gripping scary stories, that kind of thing is more interesting.

Also, whatever the forum is supposed to be about, what it's really about is YOSEMITE rock climbing.

For me, at least, the "off topic" stuff is easy to filter out if I don't find it interesting. And the fact that a particular thread is "non-climbing" on a climbing forum makes it "on topic" for me for one simple reason:

I have a lot more prima facie respect for people here, even the ones with which I strongly disagree, than the "main street" blow-hards. We're blow-hards here too. But it's largely a collection of blow-hards that do (or have done) things that make their opinions matter to me more than those of non-climbers.

Climbers have a certain core perspective that is quite different from the fundamentally risk-averse thinking that drives most people. For me, that core perspective makes even "off topic" threads very much on topic. I would really miss hearing climbers' perspectives of a whole range of subjects.

The fact that it's a climbers' forum makes threads "climbers' politics," "climbers' science," "climbers' religion," etc. That matters to me, and the eclectic mix of topics is appealing. Again, easy to filter out that which doesn't interest me.

Regarding abusive posting, etc., I'm all for banning real offenders on a case by case basis. Of course, the lines are hard to draw. Some very respected climbers would be banned for, for example, defamation, etc. Having spent my share of time on the receiving end, I would still say to most complainers: "Grow a thicker skin, and buck up." We're climbers, after all. We can't take it?

All due respect, Chris, and I mean that... There's little to fix here, imho. Please don't let a few squeaky wheels ruin a unique online environment. It's (mostly) all good.

I do wonder though if setting up a separate tab for OT posts will allow easier access to those people who just want to keep their focus on the climbing, while also allowing for the climber discussions of politics, religions, and current events to remain lively.

All my cyber climbing buddies are here and mostly its easier to read the World's latest headlines here because they are generally more update, specially localy. There is also some sage climbing advice and history to be had from a talent pool of climbing legends bar none! I like it all but maybe there should be a ratio of like 4 climbing to 1 OT?? And, I love reading all the Trip Reports, its lurker dues!

The First Amendment rules at any campfire, which this is. With that said, one cannot yell "fire" in a crowded hall either. CM has done a great job keeping moderation to a minimum so as to keep this place relevant, free and curious. I ignore threads that do not interest me, as others should. Just like wandering around the campground - leave those fires where the talk or music is not your style, and chime in at those that are. There are social limits to acceptability of posts, which reach toward yelling "fire" in a crowded hall, but they are rare and blatant. Racism, I think, is one of them. Let CM make the call.

i reserve your right to defend my right to agree with you if you open your mouth to say something stupid i'm going to agree with before i think about it...is that ok ? ...wait, i mean my right to disagree with your right to...

I've been thinking about this since someone posted a while back asking whether he should allow his son to have an account. Tough call. I'm teaching the muppet about climbing, and we have a lot of fun tooling around in the Trip Reports. If I'm going to peruse the forum (which I've admittedly been doing less lately because of the preponderance of really annoying thread topics), I have to make sure the muppet can't see my screen because I never know what's going to pop up.

That being said, I love irreverence. Always have. And there is so much humor, history and climbing content with both on this site, that this is the place I always come back to...it's like home. This site is in technicolor, whereas the other climbing sites I've visited are in black and white (and boooooooring). This virtual campfire is lively, dynamic and current, and at times goes off course...but that's real, and in part what makes the site compelling.

Could the campfire use a little less bullying? For sure. But I think that ultimately the Tacoans will have to self-censor if they want it to survive as a place where all are welcome, and where their stories will be shared around the campfire for generations to come.

As online communities grow, the conventions that used to keep them in check break down. It's inevitable. Happened on usenet and countless forums. When that happens, the need for moderation (admin, user or both) of some kind increases. The sites that handle growth well usually employ a reputation system of some kind that leads to increased site privileges. I think the stack exchange sites have done a particularly good job of designing their rep system, along with a liberal sprinkling of gamification.

I think the S/N ratio of the Supertopo forum would improve tremendously with a user rep system of some kind along with peer voting of posts/threads. Designing and implementing that is a non-trivial task though.

Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky (co-founders of Stack Exchange have both written extensively about online communities, here's one from Jeff:

Sorry Former for not being more specific. I wasn't thinking of private property camp fires, I was thinking of a C4 fire. I'm unfamiliar with private KOA rules, etc. Please bring us up to speed on 1st amendment speech restrictions for KOA, etc. CM seems to follow the C4 rule. Am I off base here? ST has been pretty much like a public place (Thx CM). Do you want that to change? I hope not.

On a positive note in the forum future I will be running side bar ads for my new business.
Burkha, Habit and Shroud r Us.
Free Glock 9mm semis for the first 100 customers.
And I promise nary a boob in sight.

I think the S/N ratio of the Supertopo forum would improve tremendously with a user rep system of some kind along with peer voting of posts/threads. Designing and implementing that is a non-trivial task though.

Last time this came up, the idea was floated for some sort of Thumbs Up / Down voting for favorable threads. That would be boss--then we could have a tab for Highest Ranked threads.

Sorry Former for not being more specific. I wasn't thinking of private property camp fires, I was thinking of a C4 fire. I'm unfamiliar with private KOA rules, etc. Please bring us up to speed on 1st amendment speech restrictions for KOA, etc. CM seems to follow the C4 rule. Am I off base here? ST has been pretty much like a public place (Thx CM). Do you want that to change? I hope not.

CM doesn't follow the C4 rule. There are limits. CM's public intention (from 2005) to delete whatever he deems is offensive and ban users who violate his rules.

for a few weeks i am going to relatively little except delete the really offensive stuff...

... we will just ban them. we don't have time to weed out the threads, so we will just be deleting the users.

3) all along the way, I'll be using the whack amole technique that other have suggested and seems to be relative effective. so that it is not a surprise to people, read the next part carefully: I do not have time to warn people to stop breaking the forum rules. every once in a while ill give warnings, but for the most part i won't. i like to spend my time climbing, not being a forum cop.

...If you find posts to the forum that are objectionable, please email us to let us know. Although we can't control the content posted to the forum, we will make an effort to delete objectionable or offensive posts as we become aware of them.

I don't care so much if ST changes; I welcome the site owner to do whatever he wants with his website. If it does, I'll go find something else to entertain myself.

Last time this came up, the idea was floated for some sort of Thumbs Up / Down voting for favorable threads. That would be boss--then we could have a tab for Highest Ranked threads.

I would advocate for something more sophisticated, but, yes, that's what I'm talking about. Harness the collective opinion of the community and you'll increase the S/N ratio. I don't know if any of you have spent any time in any of the Stack Overflow venues, (and this forum is not a perfect fit for that mold as it is more chaotic by nature) but it's quite effective.

I noticed a couple of years ago that most of my technical leaning google inquiries were answered by one of the Stack Exchange sites. That prodded me to join and find out how they were getting such a consistently high S/N ratio. I have to say, the system they designed and continually evolve is impressive.

I think a similar system for the supertopo forum would increase the quality of the material significantly.

At present, thread "popularity" operates as a pretty "free market economy." Active threads percolate to the top, while less active threads are displaced.

There are three primary issues here, I believe, that are keeping strictly climbing-related threads from not percolating better. The first is pretty self-evident upon reflection. The second is theoretical and bears some investigation. The third derives from self-reflection, yet I believe that it is virtually self-evident upon reflection of thread activity.

1) Most climbing threads provide "benefits" without active response. Read and enjoy the thread (especially the pictures), and you're done. Your "engagement" does not depend upon posting (and thereby adding upward motility to the thread). By contrast, people "engaging" with the off-topic threads, such as political, "benefit" BY discussing; hence the "engagement" IS active posting rather than merely passive reading. There are many motivations here, but they are almost irrelevant, as addressing this problem doesn't depend upon motivation.

2) It could be that the many/most active off-topic posters are non-climbers (I mean people that rarely, if ever, climb or have climbed). Such people would garner little "benefit" from more-active climbing-related threads, so would (could) not participate in them by posting.

3) Young, active climbers will necessarily hold climbing as a higher percentage of their life interest than will aging, less-active or inactive climbers. Climbing used to consume probably 70% of my waking thoughts and many of my dream-states. Today it is probably more like 10%. I do still climb, and I'm an active lurker in many climbing threads. Yet, I also find myself much more interested in economic, scientific, religious, and political issues than I did when I was a "young anarchist" just climbing. Yet, as I said upthread, I still find value in threads on these "off" topics of interest that are discussed by climbers. So, as I said upthread, I still see these "off-topics" as really on-topic BECAUSE they are prosecuted by climbers on a climbing forum.

I realize that (2) and (3) could well be in conflict, which I will address momentarily.

Since it is posting rather than merely reading that causes threads to percolate higher, either of the mentioned points would naturally cause non-climbing-related threads to "rule" the low-numbered pages of threads.

Put any two together, and the effect is dramatic and at least what we actually see. There could well be other causative factors here, but these points alone can explain thread-popularity as we presently see it.

Solutions?

1) A simple change would be to rank threads by some reads/writes metric rather than by writes alone. This one change would give actual climbers a stronger influence on making climbing threads percolate up, and that by doing nothing more than what it is claimed we climbers want: to READ the climbing threads!

2) It should not be hard to ensure that posting privileges be granted to only climbers (past or present). There is some "monitoring" overhead in screening applicants to grant posting privileges to only those that actually DO have climbing history (present awesomeness need not be necessary, as long as present aging folk were once active climbers). However, that level of "monitoring" would be a small fraction of the effort required to actively "tweak" thread activity itself. Thus, the proportion of climbers posting might (should) dramatically increase, which on any ranking metric should cause climbing threads to percolate higher.

3) This one is much harder to address, as it could well be that, even with (1) and (2) in place, "off-topic" threads will still percolate higher than some would find optimal. About the only approach I can think of that is programmatically feasible would be to monitor reads/writes of logged-in users and warn then remove posting privileges from users that don't "engage" in "climbing-related" threads "enough." But (3) is troublesome because most reads are done without logging in, and how the ratios would be set would necessarily "filter out" people that clearly should be "in," while still letting "the wrong element" post "off topic" more than they should.

(2) and (3) are in apparent conflict, as I would find less value in "off topic" threads that I found out WERE largely percolated upward by non-climbers; yet, at present, I presume that such is not the case. I instead presume that these topics are percolated upward by climbers with an increasing interest in these topics as a total percentage of their life-interests. Certainly, implementing something like my (2) suggestion would better ensure that climbers dominate posting, which would make my (3) observation less problematical (in at least my mind).

In short, (1) and (2) can be pretty easily addressed, which would just "naturally" ensure that this remains both an open-topic and substantially climber-driven forum. However, the fact of (3) STILL may well have the proportion of climbing-related to non-climbing-related threads non-optimal by some perspectives.

However, merely implementing "solutions" to (1) and (2) will at least ensure that (3) has its "proper free market" effect on thread popularity, and that with less real-time "monitoring" effort, while maintaining the basic look/feel that HAS made the taco stand "the road more traveled."

Just how many pounds of flesh do yall 'dues-paying members' (haha) expect?

Supertopo.com is in business since 1999-11-10 which means that it was registered 1 decade 3 years 2 months ago and is registered with GODADDY.COM, LLC. supertopo.com is ranked #179,748 in the world according to Alexa.com traffic rank and gets around 23,965 daily pageviews from 4,793 unique visitors. It appears that this website has no pages indexed by Google and 26 by Bing. supertopo.com has Google PageRank 5 of 10, which is highest possible rank for small businesses and blogs. Website's IP address is 216.218.209.18 which means that server is located in California, Fremont, United States. It appears that this website has no backlinks in Google and around 722 indexed by Alexa. supertopo.com generates around $ 60.00 USD in daily ads revenue and its estimated value is $ 36,000.00 USD. Since no malware was detected and recently reported by users, supertopo.com is rated as SAFE to visit. Information about this website was last updated 1 month ago.

Sixty bucks a day, eh? Now THAT is a rip roaring internet business. Woo hee boy howdy, looks like cmac is building his retirement fund right there, for you know, when the guide book business falters.

For 60 bucks a day (1.2 pennies per unique visitor) I bet the dude will pay to have this whole facade rewritten, to cede to the demands of these dues paying members, so that they may enjoy a better web experience (without buying anything)

Some of you are pretty funny with your future of the forum crap. Pretty full O yerselves too. Your daily visit to the taco is worth 1.2 penny. Spend it wisely!

2) It should not be hard to ensure that posting privileges be granted to only climbers (past or present). There is some "monitoring" overhead in screening applicants to grant posting privileges to only those that actually DO have climbing history (present awesomeness need not be necessary, as long as present aging folk were once active climbers). However, that level of "monitoring" would be a small fraction of the effort required to actively "tweak" thread activity itself.

The problem with that is it doesn't scale. If you're going to implement a rep system, you need to rely upon the members to provide the rep. Users gain rep (and potentially privies) when they provide content that the community finds valuable and participate in ways that benefit the forum.

Actually, research and results say otherwise. For instance, look at participation in open source software projects. Look at the quality and effort users put into Stack Overflow answers. Or closer to home, look at the efforts of guidebook authors and first ascensionists. Community recognition is a powerful motivator.

Ok I can accept community acceptance/approval as a powerful motivator.

But the guidebook piece isn't a good example in my case... a paycheck would definitely make a difference. How about a thousand bucks a route? I'd divulge the f*#k out of my patch, hahahahahahaha. Community apprecation? Not so much... ;-)

Pure procrastination got me here, but since I'm here, I'll add my totally unrecognizable and unimportant minor character two cents: I think it is important that this forum has all sorts of political weirdness and off-topic dilation and arguments and undercooked rants.

I live in San Francisco, work in a deeply liberal profession, and associate probably 80% with people who think and vote like I do, largely because that's simply how demographics play out. I like to come on here and look beyond the walls of my little fishbowl. I don't love to read about how some people are positively in love with guns, but it helps me to know that those people are also climbers with whom I have things in common so maybe that big Gun Divide is surmountable. Or people in favor of drastically reduced governmental services: not what I think, but again, how lovely to be able to say "wow, I totally disagree...let's go climbing" than just to imagine we have no way to speak to each other at all.

Or consider the "dog's life" thread. TOTALLY OFF TOPIC but probably the most loving and harmonious thread on here, and makes me feel good to read it.

As for boobies: pfffft. Who cares. Do I support the objectification of women? By no means. I am a woman and I'd rather not be reduced to my secondary sex characteristics. But I don't need a thread on Supertopo to feel objectified. I need look no further than the grocery store checkout or the New York Times for that. This is not a captive audience, and an audience with choice should reject censorship just as it may also choose to reject hypersexualizing women. Chris M. can make the choice to police this site--that is absolutely his right and prerogative, but I would hate to see the hotchpotch of this site get all lined up and neatened and made safe.

Yeah Skully. Nobody on here seems to want an over-bolted wall with pads at the bottom and an elevator at the top, so maybe we don't want to over-bolt the site, either. You come here and maybe you're gonna take the big ride. Or not.

You all know there's more to climbing than the simple act of climbing. Chalk up, rack up, whatever......Been around long enough to hear and see what goes on in total from sun up to the time everyone passes out.

This climbing forum represents the above. Yeah, there is more to climbing than the actual act. There's the s#@$t talk, the friendships made, sharing, caring, hating, mad bolters, bolt cutters, routes won and routes stolen ...you fill in the rest, you get the drift.

Really, this forum mirrors real life. So get over it and live.

Love and Peace to all of you who helped me create a new life when I lost my last one.

“What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be now for ever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind;