Virtual Talmud

Jews for Jesus: Who’s Who & What’s What

If you believe Jesus is the messiah, died for anyone else’s sins, is God’s chosen son, or any other dogma of Christian belief, you are not Jewish. You are Christian. Period.

We Jews may not like to admit it, since we prefer live and let live, but sharing the message of their faith is a basic tenet of belief for Christians. However, there are ethical and unethical ways of doing so. The self-proclaimed Jews for Jesus, Messianics, and other Christian groups that clothe their Christian beliefs in Jewish language and ritual are nothing better than wolves in sheep’s clothing, luring often-unsuspecting Jews with unscrupulous advertising and deceptive programming, like Passover Seders and Hanukkah parties. Their methods are unethical. They often prey on the emotionally vulnerable.

Unfortunately, their success is built upon the significant financial and in-kind support they receive from both evangelical churches like the Assemblies of God, dedicated to the mass conversion of Jews as part of their apocalyptic vision, and from the local mainstream churches in my area whose leadership doesn’t seem to understand why the Messianic or ‘Jew’ for Jesus form of Christianity should be as offensive to them as it is to us.

Unfortunately, the success of these groups is also built upon our own failures in the Jewish community: failures to sufficiently fund Jewish outreach to the unaffiliated; to take seriously the need to train outreach workers; our own reticence to push our enthusiasm for Jewish observance (unless you are Lubavitch) on other Jews and to go out of our way to care for those in emotional need in our community, whether from a divorce, a job loss, problems with parents, loneliness, or any number of other reasons.

Every Jew who converts to Christianity is a failure for the Jewish community. However, as much as I feel pain over Jews who convert to Christianity, it is even worse if the Jew has become a ‘Jew’ for Jesus, because such merging of beliefs is anathema to Judaism.

Since the Christianization of the Roman Empire, Jews have chosen to die rather than accept that Jesus is the messiah, the savior, or in any way different than any other child of God. They did so because we Jews believe in the unambiguous unity of God, that God hears everyone’s prayers (without the need for an intercessor), that there is no vicarious atonement, only the atonement each person seeks through asking forgiveness and doing good deeds, and that the messiah has not yet come, for the world is not yet perfect and at peace. That these groups imply that someone could be a Jew and believe otherwise (in Jesus as their personal savior) is simply a lie.

The best defense is a good offense. That is why we should give three cheers to Jackie Mason on deciding to sue Jews for Jesus and demanding truth in their advertising, let alone not using famous people in their deceptive advertising without permission.

That is also why we should be providing more support to such groups as Jews for Judaism, why each of us can and should learn more about what Judaism believes, and why each of us can and should do more to reach out to our Jewish neighbors and bring them home to an honest and true expression of their Judaism.

I definitely do not agree with Jews for Jesus, but as a fellow Jew I found the pharsing of Every Jew who converts to Christianity is a failure for the Jewish community off-putting, and this makes me wonder how a gentile reader would react.

Who cares how a gentile reader would react? I am sure that Christian groups would have a sense of failure if they lost congregants to Judaism. Rabbi Grossman’s point is not to denigrate Christianity but to point out that we need to look at ourselves and ask why so many Jews find other religions satisfying their religious needs. Sure, some Jews will have true religious conversions, but often many seek out other faith homes because of a bad experience in synagogue, with other Jews, etc. It is easy to point to JFJ as a problem; it is harder to recognize that the Jewish community needs to be more welcoming to Jews from all walks of life and educate them on the beauty of Judaism.

I ll say it again, being Jewish is so much more than the Standards of the Conservative or Orthodox Movements. So, have you tried to tell reformed or secular America and Israel that they don t have the right stuff to qualify as Jews? Why not? Your whole theme is that a perfect belief system is key to being Jewish and by the way, are you absolutely certain you have one of those? I am pretty weary of the self righteous indignation surrounding this whole issue. People looking for a religious experience (from either side of the street) will never be satisfied by a relationship with God, because they want to be God. People looking for a religious experience will never be content as an obedient servant fulfilling the mitzvoth but that is our individual created purpose. I tell everyone who comes to my door to share their heart with me, Thank you and keep studying Torah. You will never regret it. I tell them the truth. They feel good. I feel good because I just fulfilled a mitzvah. They move along and I have confidence that God will turn toward anyone who studies to know Him not just a religion. How is being offendable and drawing hard lines contributing to a perfected world anyhow? God doesn t ask us to judge the world, he asks us to bring Torah into it.

I do know one thing that “messianic” Christianity is doing right, it finds people with Jewish souls, turns them onto Judaism, and gives them the time they need to find their way back into an authentic Jewish synagogue. I know, I was one of them, and have seen countless friends from my old churches convert to reform, conservative, and orthodox Judaism, without any proselytizing. Messianic Christianity brings a lot more people to Judaism than they convert away from it, even if that’s probably not what they intend.

Wanda, Rabbi Grossman begins her post with “If you believe Jesus is the messiah, died for anyone else s sins, is God s chosen son, or any other dogma of Christian belief, you are not Jewish. You are Christian.” This is a plain statement of fact and has been the dividing line between Jews and Christians from the beginnings of Christianity, through the Inquisition, and to the present. Jews for Jesus pretend that line doesn’t exist. This is a lie. It does. (And yes, boundaries serve to distinguish and define groups–they are neither good nor bad, simply how humans categorize the world.) I fail to see how your comments on intra-Jewish relations (between liberal and Orthodox Jews) shed light on this issue, which is clear about Jewish/non-Jewish interactions.

The point is “apples to apples”. You can’t deny an ethnic heritage based on religious lines YOU wish to impose regarding one issue but not any other. That’s a double standard and open, honest and courteous discussion is a hallmark in Judaism… except when this issue comes up. A lot of healing is still needed.

I used to be Christian, moved on to Messianic Judaism when I found that Christianity wasn’t following Scripture, and eventually converted to Judaism (right now, strict conservative, eventually orthodox) when I found that the “New” Testament contradicted the “Old” Testament (Tanakh) in too many places for it to be an accident. One person who will help a lot with this issue is Rabbi Tovia Singer, who’s done a lot of good work on this issue (check out “Let’s Get Biblical”). I don’t think one will follow my path unless he or she is committed to following Scripture as closely as possible, with the “Old” Testament being the foundation of the belief, and anything else having to agree completely with that document, with no contradictions.

Rabbi Grossman is absolutely right. The synagogues are NOT reaching out to people who need emotional support, help getting a job, or any other type of social support that a religious group could provide. Once I went to a Holocaust Remembrance Day concert at a very large Conservative shul. After it was over a woman came up and started talking to us. I noticed she was wearing a Mogen David with a cross in the middle — big clue!! We eventually decided she was unbalanced and blew her off. Secondly, a few years ago we were in NYC and went to a first night of Hanukkah service at the largest Reform synagogue in the world. It’s on the east side of Central Park. After it was over, a tall blond fellow in a black raincoat came up and started talking to us. Turned out he was a Jew for Jesus too. In both these instances, we were in extremely large synagogues and NOBODY from the temple came up and greeted us or spoke to us, as visitors. The only person who did was a Jew for Jesus, who was an infiltrator and underminer of the institution, and the members of the congregation didn’t even know it!! Rabbi Grossman is absolutely right. These synagogues are not welcoming people like they should, and Jews for Jesus are coming in and talking to people one on one, and working against them. BTW, my S.O. and I once applied for membership in a Classical Reform shul. We were rejected because a)we did not have jobs, although we volunteered to work a 40 hour week at anything they wanted us to do. We both have advanced degrees. and b)that was the “first time that a COUPLE wanted to convert”, i.e. one person was not dragged in by the other person who was a Jew. The rich people who are on the board must have decided we were undesirables. So I can vouch for the impression that synagogues are not welcoming places. I’ve experienced it myself.

Thank you, Rabbi Grossman, and the others who have written regarding the synagogue reluctance to teach congregations more about “Jews for Jesus” and how they are collecting our people. My daughter married a Catholic and ended up converting. It broke my heart. I witnessed the ceremony – to me it was a joke. Since then, she’s had two daughters who were being raised Catholic and then changed to some other church. They divorced about a year ago. My daughter decided to join a synagogue and my grandchildren ( now 4 1/2 and 6), went to Sunday school. She began dating a great Jewish, conservative guy. All was well. I was happy. Unfortunately, the synagogue began asking for money which was difficult for her to pay for Sunday school. They raised their dues also. She even said she would teach. At first they seemed interested, but then it was summer. Long story short, some friends from work invited her to a “new” church – Jews for Jesus – where there are a few Rabbis as members. She is very active there. She pays nothing and this weekend she is taking her 6 year old daughter with her to a church retreat – what do they charge? 0000000 nothing. She says she is still Jewish and sometimes carries a Bible with her. The “whole” bible – both old and new testament. I blame myself for not giving her a thorough enough background; however, I also know that the synagogues do not try to keep these young single members. They want their money and if you are not in a position to have it at the time, go elsewhere. and she did! Barbara

Some shuls are very unfriendly. I’ll be the first to agree with that. However, my shul has accepted my dues at a drastically reduced rate for several years, as I can’t pay any more. We have plenty of converts who are extremely active – some came in because of a partner, but some met the partner after conversion. This is my shul here in Texas – which is less than perfect, but I know nothing man-made is perfect. The shul I went to in Baton Rouge was the same way. We had converts who helped keep the shul going and were amazing additions to our community. Not every shul is a fit. Sometimes you have to see where you are more comfortable. AND sometimes you find yourself in a reform, conservative, or even orthodox shul not because that’s where you grew up or what you grew up with, but because that community is right for you.

The idea that not believing in the divinity of Jesus is the defining characteristic of being Jewish bothers me a lot. But then, so does the J4J pitch that you can still be a Jew and believe in Jesus’ divinity, as long as you eat bagels and lox and throw a little Yiddish slang into your discourse. On both sides, real Judaism is being sold short. On the other hand, the official definition of eligibility for immigration to Israel under the Law of Return–essentially that you can come to our country if you would have been in our boxcar in Germany–is also problematic. It reminds me of what happened in Spain after 1492, when the Inquisition published long lists of ways to tell whether your neighbor is a secret Jew. They were, of course, intended for the general Christian public. But they were also read by secret Jews who used them as a catalog of ways to BE a Jew. In short, it’s time we stopped letting the rest of the world define our Jewishness, and took more seriously the task of defining it for ourselves.

Like Shelly, I belong to a temple – reformed that I am not thrilled with, but we moved from Great Neck, NY to Fresno, CA and are very grateful to have some Jewish families to affiliate with and to be able to go to synagogue. With the Jews for Jesus, I find that so contradictory and hypocritical that I had to read what was written in this beliefnet. I had a friend when I first moved here. Of course, she was Christian, a fundamentalist, and she did everything she could to convert me. I was raised Conservative in a very Jewish town as my husband was, though he isn’t as much into belief as tradition. One day, I told her that I was going to synagogue for the High Holy Days to pray to G-d to forgive my sins. She instantly proclaimed, “You can’t talk to the father of Jesus, that is a very bad sin! You have to pray through Jesus.” I looked at her and said, “I am going to synagogue for atonement. I have enough sins on my plate. If I pray to Jesus, I don’t think the Almighty is going to forgive that one. It is a very bad sin for me to worship idols”. Jesus, in my opinion, is just a Jewish man from a dysfunctional family who tried to spread the word of peace. Did it work? Noooooo. So, I guess we are chosen because we can and must communicate only with the “Lord, our G-d, who brought us out of Egypt” else we are in big trouble.

Once again another article of discrimination towards Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah. Interesting to me how these Rabbis are encouraging hate on THEIR opinions. I have never found ANYTHING factual thats states a Jew accepts another belief that all of a sudden, they are no longer Jews. I responded to Rabbi Waxmans article with this question: I was born of Jewish linage. I accepted Jesus as my savior much later in life. So now *poof* Im no longer a Jew? This is such an insult to all Jews…..to tell US what we can or cannot believe. I have never seen Jews who have chosen Buddism or Catholicism or whatever else be told that they are “ousted” from the Jewish community. Jews of this world have enough hate towards us without our own hating us for the beliefs we choose. Shalom in Yeshua,TJ

TJ, If you convert to another religion and tell people you did, you will not be welcome in most synagogues. When I was younger the family, even mainstream not orthodox, would have sat shiva for you just as if you had died.

I was born Catholic and latter found the lie that catholic church is. (by the way, i am trying to find out if i am jew or not, since i believe i have Sephardic blood). Anyway, I have learned important things about the Jewish culture, heritage, etc. Why is this relevant?….because of my new love for Israel. In catholic church, they portrait jews as the bad guys. I hated Israel. Until I learned that Hashem loves deeply His chosen people. I learned that thru Messianic jews. Now, a friend of mine once asked me ‘if there was a soccer match beetwen Israle and your country…who would you cheer for?….I answered….let’s go deeper. If my country was at WAR with Israel, I WOULD fight on the Israel side. I truly love Israel, and it’s people. Am I right?…Am I wrong?…..well, in my case, I was an enemy. Now I am an ally. And I will defend Israel even with my own life. Because is a Psalm, Hashem says that ‘whoever blesses Jerusalem will be blessed, and whoever damns Jerusalem will be damned’. So dont hate Jews for Jesus. They are doing more for making people know how much Israel matters than anyone can realize. And to those who hate Yeshua….have you noticed how many messianic prophetic events point to Him?…have you tried to find for yourself if Yeshua is Mashiaj? Because if He is not, nothing happens…but if He is….you are in for a BIG surprise In Yeshua’s love, SHALOM Gustavo

Gustavo I am heartened by your support for Israel. However….you are incorrect in your statement that a Jew should consider whether Jesus is God. I could easily turn your statement around to say: If he is not God and you worship him as such, you are committing apostacy and idolatry, quite a problem in the Torah. I also strongly doubt that Jews for Jesus is helping to expand knowledge of Israel in the public. Thankfully we have Fox news for that.

TJ, You aren’t a Jew. And if a Jew embraces Catholicism, they are not a Jew. Just as if they embrace Hinduism. Buddhism is iffy, because it is in many case more of a discipline than a religion. Those people may still worship the G-D of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so they’re still Jews. You left man, and you aren’t one of us anymore.

TJ If you have accepted Jesus as your savior, why do you even care what the Jewish community thinks? Of course Judaism can tell you what to believe. That’s the whole point, isn’t it? I mean, Christianity also tells you what to believe. They have even killed each other over arguments about the exact nature of Jesus’ divinity. You, as an individual, can believe whatever you would like to, and no one can force beliefs upon you. But the Torah and thousands of year of Jewish monotheism must reject the idea of a Trinitarian Godhead–it is impossible and completely incompatible with Jewish belief. Any religious group has the ability to decide for itself what beliefs are kosher, so to speak, and what beliefs put you outside the box.

Scott you say…….”You aren’t a Jew. And if a Jew embraces Catholicism, they are not a Jew. Just as if they embrace Hinduism. Buddhism is iffy, because it is in many case more of a discipline than a religion. Those people may still worship the G-D of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so they’re still Jews. You left man, and you aren’t one of us anymore.” Scott | 09.01.06 – 3:00 pm | # I say…….Buddhism is iffy? They believe in the inner self. Not God. And I said before, I was born a Jew. My belief didnt play into my life till much later. So now all of a sudden Im no longer a Jew? Is that the same for the Irish,Russians,Italians,Africans,etc.? They choose another religion and their heritage just goes away? No. They are Irish who have a belief and Russians who have a belief and so on. By the way, Im a female…man. Shalom in Yeshua,TJ

No, their hertitage doesn’t go away. But if you violate one of the main tenets of our faith – that HaShem is One and incorporeal – you are no Jew. Joining the religion of our murderers just makes it even more of a betrayal.

I have seen a few more posts. There is something I do not believe, and it may be shocking to you. I do believe that Yeshua is the Son of G-d. I do believe He is the Mashiaj, and the Savior. I do believe there is no other name in which we can be saved. I do beleve He is the perfect Lamb. And that He died for my sins. And that the Father resurrected Him……But I do not believe Yeshua is G-d. I do not believe in a 3 headed G-d, which is an idea inherited by the roman church (sorry if my english is not perfect, but i am from Guatemala – the country that gave the final vote to create the State of Israel – and my mothertongue is spanish. Still, please look for the messianic promises in the Old Testamet. And see that Yeshua fulfills them. And when I say Jews for Jesus promote Israel, I dont mean the stuff that Fox shows. I mean actually praying for the peace of Yerushalaim. And inviting others to do so. If I am wrong in my percepcion, let me know why. I am trying to be here to express my points of view, not to convert people from Judaism. Because Israel is the One True Church Blessed be in the lovbe of Mashiaj Shalom Gustavo

Hi again Shelly! god Bless you again (I posted you on the prior blog covnersation also) What do you think of the whole sitting shiva for a living relative phenomena? Do you think that is a good thing for Jews to be doing regarding their loved ones who breach the faith – whether it is is marrying ‘out’, coming to personal faith that is outside the law, or coming out of the closet… etc etc… what do you think personally should be the Jewish way to relate to other Jewish brethren who are different — I am not talking about individuals who are trying to push something at you… But seriously, if a gay individual is friendly toward you, and shares their personal history with you, is that person trying to convert you to be gay?? Perhaps some people are, but many people like me are NOT trying to convert anyone else. After all, no human converted me. I don’t believe it’s possible. I think anyone who tries to convert another is a repugnant experience. But I do like to hear about other people’s lives and personal experiences, if it is shared in a non-pushy way. Do you think it makes sense that I should be rejected and even reviled by other Jews? (e.g. Scott) Just for following my spirit itself? Because it feels like that is what you are saying. Perhaps I am wrong. But perhaps that IS what some of you are saying. The only reason I post on these sites is to let you guys know that there ARE real people who are being hurt in the cross-fires of all this. I accept that. Not everyone needs to agree with me or like me… but does it really make sense that I am reviled and rejected, without any knowledge of who I am or what I am like as a person…. Just a thought. I am really not trying to convert anyone to anything, except perhaps away from judging others. God bless us all and God have mercy on us all!

I want to respond to the point in the article about shul being unwelcoming. I often have thought of becoming part of the Christian community because when I go to a church I am warmly welcomed, all they don’t know that I am Jewish when I come in, they just want to welcome me because I am me! I have always been frightened to walk into Synagogues because whenever I have had the occassion to, man the cold shiver that runs down my spine! No one talks to me and since I don’t have a clue what is going on, I feel that the people there look at me like I am some kind of freak. So I continue to struggle because I feel deeply connected to my Jewish roots, but I just can’t connect on a human level with my Jewish community. The Jewish community is starting to realize these things, but they really need to work hard to make it a far more welcoming place. Especially for those who are unafilliated and those who might be struggling with personal issues! I always feel like the Jewish community is similar to the Asian community, by making people feel that if you aren’t “successful” you are a loser! If you have something wrong with you, best no one see’s. You rarely see mentally ill or devolopmentally disabled people around a Jewish community centre or synagogue.

Elizabeth, When the Jewish community in the U.S. (or wherever) dies off, you will have been a part of it. Curtis, You’re going to the wrong synagogues. Mine welcomes all new people, and mostly talks there ears off.

Curtis, then what you need to do is FIND a synagogue that WILL welcome you. I’m a member of a SMALL reconstructionist congregation that is VERY member driven. We all help out, even with having a rabbi, we all pitch in in one way or another. I don’t have children but end up helping with Children’s activities on the high Holidays. If you were in my area, I’d invite you to come to services as my guest. show you what it means to be part of a “kehilla MiKabellet”(a Welcoming congregation). We have members who are white/Black/Asian/Born jews/Jews “by Choice”/Gay & Lesbian/Straight/Intermarried and whatever/Athiestic jew. If you want to write to me, I’d encourage it @ tmccloud2@msn.com

Curtis, I don’t know where you live, but our synagogue here invites everyone to the kiddush and tells all new people to take a blue glass to identify themselves as new or visitors to the congregation. The only wasy to find a community is to visit what’s available and make a decision as to where you are comfortable. The other issue is understanding what’s happening. I can empathize there as I’m dyslexic and if I miss a month or so, I have to relearn reading.As I’m well past 50 that’s a little disheartening. For you there are answers!! Most synagogues have all kinds of classes going on – History, Judaism, reading hebrew, speaking hebrew, davening, etc. Once you have some eduation under your belt you’ll be a lot more confident and will actually enjoy services and the other people there.

Elizabeth, I would think that only the very orthodox actually sit Shiva these days. As far as mixing with others – I live in Austin, TX and have friends in many different groups – jewish, non-jewish, evangelistic, redneck and gay. They all know that I’m Jewish. I have no trouble answering any question that is brought up, even when some is being ugly. I can and have dealt with it all with out getting upset, because that doesn’t help and sometimes its just ignorance. However, for those of us whose families were drastically reduced or decimated during the Holocaust, we can’t help but consider that for every Jew who joins an offshoot group or rejects his faith (of which he may actually be quite ignorant) that means our numbers as a “tribe” have again been reduced. It doesn’t matter that the Holocaust was violent or that this is not, it still means that once again our numbers are reduced. We have faced this as a people before. When the Jews were expelled from Spain, their choice was leave with what you can carry and as soon as possible, OR stay and be catholic. Fifty years later when the King of Portugal decided that the Jews needed to convert to Catholiscm, he rounded up all the Jewish children and gave their parents a choice. Leave with out the child or you may convert and remain with the small ward of the state!! Just to show them that he meant business, the first group of small children were abandoned on a island of the coast – with no grown ups. Some actually survived, how, I can’t imagine. Does that help? Part of the problem here is, how can you go against the law, blatantly, and still be part of the group. e.g. If you started smoking pot and made sure that the world knew it, the cops would show up as this is an illegal substance. Well, with choosing to believe what the torah says we can’t, you can’t expect the rest of us to be happy with you.

Elizabeth Jews do not revile you as a person at all. But for every Jew who leaves, whether through unfortunate interactions with the Jewish community or through belief in another religion, it further cuts down on the potential numbers for the next generation. Christianity is a horizontal religion–it seeks to draw those currently alive into communion. Judaism is more of a vertical religion, in that it is very focused on propagating itself through further generations. Except for Orthodox Jews, most Jews would not sit shiva anymore for those leaving. But it hurts, and surely you can understand the pain. When Jews see another bright, spiritually inclined individual such as yourself find meaning in another religion, it further diminishes us as a people. And with Iran gearing up with nukes and the North American Jewish community shrinking, we really cannot afford to keep losing folks. b’shalom

I have seen comments that all those “Christians” murdered our people. Who are these Christians? Are you talking Hitler and his followers? These people were not Christian and I have never heard of this as being fact. And I recently found out in a documentary that Hitler was acually a Jew and was so ashamed by it that is why he lead such a fight to destroy all Jews. The thought of him being a Jew nauseates me to no end but Im wondering if that is true. Shalom in Yeshua,TJ

TJ Hitler was not Jewish, he was a baptised Catholic. The ‘myth’ of having some Jewish blood is probably more an urban legend, and it has not been proven. As for the history of Christian anti-Judaism, read “Constantine’s Sword” by James Carroll. It wasn’t just the Nazis and their collaborators; it was the Crusaders, the Catholic Church, the Inquisition……its really quite a long list. b’shalom

Being a baptised Catholic doesn’t make you a genuine follower of the Messiah any more than sitting in your garage makes you a car. I remember from my Holocaust studies that Hitler didn’t care for Christianity because of its obvious Jewish roots.

one of the best descriptions about my own beliefs came from a devout Baptist gentleman who said to me ” You are doubly blessed because you have not just the heritage, but the inheritance as a “completed Jew”. It was a very defining moment for me.

Tami, You were “completed” because you accepted Jesus?? Why were you incomplete before that? Did you not know enough about Judaism to start with? I find that the more I learn, the more I KNOW I need to learn. I find it all fascinating. Before you decide that I’m just not too bright, I was a religion major in college because it intrigued me knowing that all men find a G-d or G-ds to follow. I never found anything as interesting as my own and maybe that was because I had a resonably good background in Judaism, grew up with all the holidays in a warm loving family of Holocaust survivors, who were joyful that my siblings and I existed as so much of the family on all sides had be eliminated in Poland.

Calling a Jew who converts to Christianity ‘completed’ is such a rude slap in the face to Judaism. Really, Tami, Jews are no less ‘complete’ than you. It runs along with the concept of supersessionism, which suggests that the Church is the new Israel. If your way to God is through Christianity, fine, but the denigration of a 3500 year old faith to bolster your own seems a bit sad.

Interesting article in “Reform Judaism” this month. It describes how the beginning of Christianity really was Jewish. The point, of course, was not that most Jews believed he was the Messiah (although many did), but that the theology that developed around his persona was deeply rooted in Jewish thought. As a Messianic Jew, I would love to pretend like the last 2,000 years never happened and start out with honest and fresh dialogue (not Jews for Jesus style, by the way) amongst us Jews and leave out the embarassing and devastating history of the “Church” I don’t blame our ancestors for rejecting the Gentile Jesus that was portrayed to them. However, I do think that there is and should be room for discussion regarding Messianic Judaism’s ideas on the Messiah and his role in personal and (eventually) national redemption. Many of our beliefs are right in line with pre-common era Jewish teachers. It would be nice to be considered a part of the fold; as if we somehow tapped into the real Jewish Jesus (“Yeshua” as we like to call him). To segment us from the bloody history of Christianity is a hard thing to ask. It is also hard to ask that Yeshua be seen in his appropriate Jewish context. If it is too hard, and we continue to face rejection, we can live with that and will maintain our strong beliefs grounded on the prophecies in the Tanach and personal, spiritual experience. However, we will not stop genuinely loving Israel and our Jewish people – even if that love goes unreturned.

Thank you Jethro. And Scott?People like to say Hitler (Y”S) was a Jews because it lets their beliefs off the hook.? I have NEVA heard anyone LIKE to say Hitler was a Jew……for ANY reason. When I heard it I became sick. This statement from you……well……..I better keep my comments to myself on that one. Shalom in Yeshua,TJ

I know that true Christians, would never want to destroy the Jewish people, ever. The Hebrew people are very near and dear to true Christians, not only because they are a blessing to us but because of Jesus and the Lord God of Israel. Christians get blamed for things true Christians wouldn’t think of, let alone do. Jewish people are treated like that, too. Even Muslims, don’t accept terrorists as Muslims. I don’t speak of that faith much because they do not serve the same God.

Yes, I was taught that Hitler, was a German-Jew, part Jewish, in school. I didn’t take it as any other than, how could he have been so insensitive to his own people, and how could he have ordered and allowed so many people of his own to be tortured and murdered. but that is what we were taught in school. It wasn’t a slur on the Jews, just how could he? And none of us are without sin, but how awful. I didn’t learn much about the Crusades and any particulars, or I would have double-upchucked! I just learned that the Catholics, which are not Christians as a whole or as a church, tortured and killed Jews and Christians. Methinks, you have to look deeper than the name someone wears and professes.

Yossel, I didn’t know Jesus’ name, Yeshua, until about 2-3 years ago, but I’ve always know Yeshua, Jesus as the same one. I knew him to be degraded by degradation itself but always he is majestic, glorious, worthy of honor and praise.

Well, membership to our tribe is not determined by merely claiming to be part of our tribe. And given Hitler’s propensity towards Aryan mythology and ancient Germanic paganism among and his love for Nietzche, calling Hitler a Christian sounds silly to me. If you mean by “Christian” “Gentile”, yes. If you mean by “Christian” “a follower of the Messiah”, absolutely not. Ishmael and Isaac were both circumcised and children of Abraham. But only Isaac was child of the promise.

Deborah, Catholics are Christians – maybe moreso than Protestants. After all, they were the first Christians. Jane, Reformers are keeping Judaism alive, because Orthoxy is dwindling. It seems to be on the upswing, but it is not. Oh, and Reform Judaism is Torah Judaism.

Jane First of, what is ‘true’Judaism? Reform Judaism, while it makes strict Torah observance up to the autonomous decision of the individual, does not abrogate Torah. Christianity does abrogate Torah, and then further goes on to develop a new Canon, a new calendar, new rituals, and a new theology. I have often heard Jewish converts to Christianity use that argument–that they are actually being more ‘true’ to Judaism that Reform Jews– but that takes a fair number of mental gymnastics that don’t add up.

I am guessing that I am going to be an very unusual animal here. I was born into a bi-religional home. Catholic-Jewish. Raised by a Chatholic Grandmother in her faith, I left the Catholic religion at 11 years old. I tried on different Chritian faiths through the years and felt progressively unfulfilled and full of questions. Gradually I came to notice that my veiws on life, religion, and faith were, by nature, far more Jewish than Christian. I have thrown off the oppresive dark weight of the Christian faith, heavy with dillusion, lies, and the innocent blood of so many taken in the name of ……Well you get the idea. For the first time in my life, I feel like I am where I always should have been spiritualy. And I have taken my two sons with me. Joining my brother and sister in an ansestory that goes back to the original tribe of David. My sons and I are learning together our history, traditions, and beliefs. It feels like comming home in a way that is hard to put into words. I am spiritualy happy at last. It would be completely upseting to me if a past that I never chose was held against me. And, I certainly don’t want to be a two legged insult to the Jewish community. Can we as late comers be accepted? If this conversion from Catholasisim insults or upsets anyone, please, You have deepest and most sincerest apology. I want to walk, talk, and live the faith of my ancestors, my father, and family. And I will weather I can do it openly and happily, or hidden and silent. But I have to say I don’t feel like being silent. I feel like happily shouting my Jewish joy to all who will listen. At last I feel the peace and love of G_d that I searched for so feverantly for so long. My first Jewish words were no more “lashon hara”. There is too much of it in the Christian faith for anyone that doesn’t jump up and blindly follow and accept their docterine. Following blindly, Not me, never again.

Julie The problem is never with sincere, true converts. Welcome home!!! The problem is when Jews leave for Christianity and then try to bring uneducated Jews with them. God grant you peace and strength as you continue on your spiritual journey.

Dear Julie, I don’t know which part of the country you are in, but in my congregation in Louisiana and in my present congregation in Austin we have a large number of converts who are very much a pat of the community. We could not do without them as most of them are very, very active and very knowledgeable. I my have the past history, but some of them have wonderful educations in Judaism that I could truly envy. It sounds as if you have found your spiritual home and filled the empty place in your heart that kept you searching. I am thrilled for you. May you and the boys have a wonderful Rosh Hashannah, an easy fast and a terrific New Year.

Rabbi Grossman, You said, “Every Jew who converts to Christianity is a failure for the Jewish community.” Shame on you. Give one true example of one Jew that became a Christian and caused failure for the Jewish community. …and you said, “God hears everyone s prayers (without the need for an intercessor), that there is no vicarious atonement, only the atonement each person seeks through asking forgiveness and doing good deeds, and that the messiah has not yet come, for the world is not yet perfect and at peace.” First off, you are right, God does ‘hear’ everyones prayers. The difference is, unless it is a prayer of repentence and acceptance of His Son, He places it on His ‘waiting list’. Tell me, if a Jew does not have a sacrifice for his atonement every year, does God forgive his sins? If so, how so? Does not the Torah say that the ‘atonement’ is in the blood of the sacrifice, and without the blood (over the doorpost) there is no salvation? If there is no ‘blood sacrifice’, where is the ‘life’ and/or the renewal of life without the stain of sin. Would not the plaque that was sent throughout Egypt have slain those without the blood/life of the sacrifice? Without forgiveness through ‘atonement’, and without an intercessor/sacrificial lamb, how is one forgiven? How many ‘good deeds’ does one need to accomplish in order to be forgiven? …and “That these groups imply that someone could be a Jew and believe otherwise (in Jesus as their personal savior) is simply a lie.” Let all men be liars, but the Everlasting God of Creation, be true. Many Torah scriptures speak of the coming Messiah, which of these did Jesus not fulfill? Isa. 53 is a complete rendition of ‘the suffering Messiah’, and Jesus fit the bill…which by the way is Paid in Full. Waiting for the Messiah? What will signify his appearing?

I think the discussion would be enhanced by considering definitions of “Jew.” I think there are several which may overlap: 1. Person who was born to a Jewish mother. (possible circular reasoning) 2. Person who identifies with other Jews as an ethnic group, shares the culture and ethnic aspirations (Israel), because s/her was raised in a Jewish family. 3. Person who adheres to Jewish religious observances to a varying degree, has a spiritual and ethical outlook that may be characterized as “Jewish.” 4. Person who consciously holds to Jewish religious beliefs. 5. Person who has considered him/herself not to be Jewish because of parentage, but halakically converts to one of the branches of Judaism. These definitions are off the top of my head. But I think we need to be careful such statements as “a person from a Jewish family who chooses to worship Jesus as Messiah and God is not a Jew.” It’s all a matter of definition. Such a person may fulfill all the above definitions except 5, 4 and possibly 3. As G.K. Chesterton said, “Art is like Morality, you have to draw the line somewhere.” And where do we draw the line in deciding who is a Jew, a former Jew, a non-observant Jew, or an apostate Jew? SP

First off, what is a Jew? The Rabbinut is still out on that one, so how can Rabbi Grossman say she knows? She is obviously unfamiliar with early Christian history, because at its inception Christianity was simply considered to be another branch of Judaism. In fact, it first began to lose its original characteristics with the beginning of the Diaspora in 67 C.E. Be that as it may. The petty nitpicking that goes on between the Jewish and Christian communities never ceases to amaze me. I am an American of Jewish extraction (I had a Jewish mother). I live in Iran and believe me, Jews for Jesus do not pose that much of a threat to the Jewish community. Not compared with other, real threats. So they believe Jesus is messiah. So what – others have believed it was Bar Kochva, or Shavtai Zvi, or countless others. Did that sudedenly make them non-Jewish? The idea is ridiculous. We need to quit fighting among ourselves and wake up to reality.

Linda, I don’t know your background, but we have done done blood or animal sacrifice since the destruction of the temple sevaeral thousand years back. We have offered prayers, repentance and fasting, and mitzvot since then. NEXT, as a Jew I don’t need anyone to intercede for me – I can have a direct line to the L-rd wenever I want or need it. If that happens to be in the midst of a storm with water on all sides of the car, or in shul on Shabbat. We are not put on a waiting list!! Maybe that’s how it works for you, but not us. Even my little granddaughter understood that at 4 1/2 when she decided after Shabbos attendance that she wanted some private time to talk to G-d and went into the chapel and closed the door behind her. As far as failures because of conversion in the Jewish community, one fabulous example is the young man in Spain who converted to Catholism, and became one of the Inquisitions most fervent judges and inquisitors. I like to believe that we as a community have to be as understanding as we can if someone converts away from Judaism, in the hope that without all kinds of recrimination, they may find their way home again. And then we can welcome the prodigal back into our midst and celebrate. Your post shows a huge lack of knowledge. Judaism has continued to grow over the years, and to develope. Suggesting that we are doing blood sacrifice and that we need to mark our doors with blood, takes one back to the blood libels in Europe, which led to horrible massacres. Are you as prejudiced and bigoted as you come across in your post? For your sake I do hope not. As some of my Christian friends would say, I will put you in my prayers. You must be a very unhappy person

I am reading The Lost Gospel by Krosney. According to Judas, Jesus died in order to perfect his soul and become one with G-d. He was only able to do this by dying a martyr’s death. I think Jesus died for himself; and not for others sins. I believe his followers made up the story that Jesus was being sacrificed on the cross for our sins to make sense out of what they saw as a senseless death. I also Think he survived the punishment on the cross at least for a while and that is why everyone thought he was resurected from the dead The 12 started calling Jesus the Christ after he died for lack of a better name. They followed jesus like he was a rabbi, not a living god during his life and did not believe him to be anything other than a normal human being. There are other gospel writings that show jesus to be married to Mary Magdalene and talk about Jesus and Mary speaking to crowds and healing the sick as a team. The book JEWS IN THE TIME OF JESUS is very helpful. How can a G-d marry, have human desires wants ects. I know that Jesus was as human as you and me. His story stayed around because he preached what was in the torah and he taught it to the common man. I think Christians are duped they don’t follow Jesus or G-d. If they did they would be Jewish They follow Paul of Tarsus, In my opinion Paul was the real creator of the jesus myth and a wanna be messiah. Jesus lived and died a jewish human being whos’ only goal was to become one with god. I feel this way because thru prayer G-d opened my eyes to the falsehoods in the new testament.The new testament was written by men with agendas political and otherwise. Jesus was a nice man whose death was used by others to get power.I feel sorry for the christians out there who have their eyes blinded to the truth I hope eventually every one finds their way home to the one true G-d and the one true faith Judaism. I am a converted christian and in my heart I have always felt Jewish ever since I was 13 or so

Terri, I don’t mean to be mean here, so please take my following comments with a little charity. Based on what you’ve just posted, I don’t think you understand fully traditional Christian positions. Nor do you have a good understanding of why followers of Jesus reject some texts and accept others. So some writings by some Gnostics who had no connection to Jesus or the apostles is not impressive to believers who have studied the issue. In regards to your other comments: I would begin to give you a bunch of questions to see if you could give a consistent narrative of all the historical evidence. How would someone who survived a crucifixion (unlikely to the extreme) convince a bunch of people he was the risen Messiah during the age of limited medicine? How could Paul so completely change a movement when he was originally on the outside (he killed Jewish believers in Jesus) and become accepted by the other apostles and Christian community? There are alternative theories. But I’ve found no alternative which can consistently explain everything.

Religion, regardles of what it is, creates The Creator in the image of man…so, in conclusion, a ‘Jew for Jesus’ is no less a Jew then any one else to claim any other form of Judaism…I am a Levi-ite not a Judah-ite, so therefore I do not fall into any ‘catagory of Judaism’ at all, I believe that The Creator gave the Message to all of Humanity through the Sons of Israel. Thank you

A “Jew” is a ethnic and religious definition. Unlike an “Israeli”, which is a national, not ethnic or religious distinction; being a “Jew” is complicated by combining the parts. You may be born into the People, those who are of the Jewish genetic bloodlines. A parent (historically the mother because they did not always know who the father was for a variety of reasons), or a grandparent may give you genetic material identifyable as being from a Jewish gene pool. You may also convert into the religous faith of Judaism, those who follow, adhere, practice, etc. tenets of the Judaic faith. This is not to say you are changed into a different gene pool, however, you subject yourself to a conversion on religious purity grounds or rituals of liturgical purification. The difference is important. No one can erase a person’s “Heritage” no matter what that may be. However, on a religious note, when you formally convert, utilizing all the ritual and liturgical rites required for such; it is as if you have renounced your citizenship to one country in favor of adopting the citizenship of another with all the rights and responsibilities that requires (e.g. defending that nation, voting, etc.). “Jews” is the title commonly given to those who currently are within the many facets of the Jewish experience (either born into or converted into). When you speak of someone borm Jewish but converted to another religion it is not common to refer to those people as Jews unless it is clearly understood you are referring to that person on a genetic or ethnic basis. Religiously speaking it is common to identify people by their current publically adopted faith. e.g. A Turkish Muslim, whose Greek (Orthodox Christian) and Russian parents (Jewish), who has a Muslim-Jewish son with his Canadian wife. The man is a Turkish by nationality. He is Muslim by religious faith. He is Greek by ethnicity. His wife is a Canadian by nationality but Russian by ethnicity (she’s actually a genetic mix of a ethnic Russian man and a ethnic Jewish woman) and Jewish by ethnicity. She is Turkish also by nationality. His son is a Jew by blood line and would be accepted as a Jew should he convert formally (because, traditionally, his mother, her mother, and seven generations of women are all ethnic Jews). The son is a Muslim religiously. The son is Turkish by nationality. See how difficult it is?

The G-d of Abraham and Issac, so forth is the same g-d that Christians believe… unfortunately. G-d has promised to shut the ears and the minds of those he chooses, And only those who have been called by G-d can know the unknowable… and understand that which cannot be understood. The things of G-d are to much for our tiny minds to even grasp. Altho Christians are to go into all the world and tell the truth, that is all they have to do. IF it is ment to stick, G-d will water it and cause it to grow in that persons heart,and soul. And believe me …no Christian is related to the things which were done to jews, Gypsies and other undisirables, in the time of Hitlers rule, or that of so called Crusaders, and other oportunistic individuals after the treasures of others. The past hs much to teach us , and the “true” Christian ,of which there are sadly very few, really has a love for the nation of Isreal, and her people. They have always been there to help those who have been the chosen people, and always referre to “Jews” as such. Anyone calling themselves christians who treat G-d’s children with anything other then love, are liars and. are said to be evil in the site of our G-d. Christians are taught that they can be adopted into the family of G-d, but always G-d’s blessings are for the JEW FIRST. This is the truth that Christians believe. And we as Christians could play the blame game the same as the so called JEWs do by blaming them for the countles thousands that were slain for their belife in what Christ taught. The manner in which they were killed was sicking,,, and all to true. women,children, babies killed in all manner of terrible painful ways, unlike the JEWs,they died with the song of love to the Lord G-d on thier lips, IN the name of the Lord Jesus in thier hearts… with smiles on thier faces that was what was so bizarre for the Jews to witness,for that kind of Love they can not understand. And one day every knee shall bow and every tounge confess that Jesus is in deed the true Messiah and has always been the savior of man. Lily

Beloved; At our synagogue we NEVER charge for anything. Yom Kippur, Purim, Pesach, Shavuot, a commuinty dinner – NOTHING. I can’t believe Moshe would charge for imparting knowledge that Hashem gave to him…and in the Christian realm I don’t believe the Apostles would charge. “Freely you have been given…freely give.” As a rabbi I have always supported myself through my secular avocation – just as tens of thousands of Rabbi’s have done throught the Centuries. Who is a Jew? Anyone who believes in the Almighty for the salvation of their soul – by faith (Bereshit 15:6). Abvraham was a Gentile…he crossed over from a world of darkness to the world of light and life. Hebrew = He who crossed over. In the world today, as in the world of 2,000 years ago – there are Hebrews and there are Greeks. There are people who rely upon Adonai for everything and there are people who rely upon “luck.” Your Servant, Rabbi David Miller

Lily, I have to admit that I find the end of your post confusing. “The so-called Jews” – all thiese people who died with a smile on their lips that the Jews couldn’t understand??!! What are you talking about?? Can you clarify this please?

Not so much as a person with a specific denomination, but as a human being, I notice we are just horrible to each other and we use every excuse in the book why this group is this way and that group is that way instead of realizing that’s just human nature. As Jews, Christians, Muslims or any child of the Book, we are not following the most important principle of our faith enough in this doomed world which is to Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind… and Love your neighbor as yourself. We look for ways within our own religions to discredit and destroy each other instead of following the most important law. Perhaps, I’m an idealist, but it would be nice to fully educate ourselves not only of our own faiths but of each others as well and do so in a non-biased state of mind.

Robert, thank you for pointing out that members of the different religions should respect one another’s faith and appreciate the value of living honest and just lives- underlined in all of the systems of belief mentioned.
I was always raised to understand that the ‘Children of the Book’ are, in a way, religious siblings or cousins.
I know that in accepting one system of belief, you inevitably reject others as the ‘truth’ (and no amount of political correctness will erase this), but I have never presumed that in rejecting the belief, I must condemn the believer to a fiery afterlife.
Yet this condemnation seems to underpin many Evangelical Christian practices and ideas- the very idea that you cannot be a ‘completed’ Jew unless a Christian, a saved child of G-d unless one who accepts Jesus as the Messiah. Aside from certain proponents of radical Islam, I cannot think of any other faith which promotes this condemnation so readily, hence the clamouring for converts in an effort to ‘save’ souls.
If we are really honest and willing to jump off the fence here, what does it say about your respect for another person in this life, if you think they are going to hell in the next?

It occurs to me that one can be a Jew by geneology and a Christian because he or she believes that Jesus is the Messiah. I just finished educating myself on some of the reasons that Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. It is interesting to me that I had no idea what the Jewish expectations for the Messiah were, yet in reading these things I can see Jesus answering them all. Have you educated yourself regarding the Christian responses to Jewish objections to Jesus being the Messiah based on Isaiah other passages of scripture? Until tonight, I never researched how Jews keep Shabbot. I find those practices very practical and interesting towards practicing my Christian faith. Perhaps we could learn a thing or two from each other. Jesus said, “I came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it.” Shema and don’t be so closed minded. By the way Christians do not have the power to judge anyone into condemnation. We are instructed to be very respectful of The Name’s elect people. I suggest you read the book of Romans. You will see that the Pharisee, named Saul of Tarsus who wrote it, indicated that The Name is the one who is making the judgment between the sheep and the goats.

Seems like I would be ostracized yet there is a subtleness to Jesus that can not be reduced to historical ridicule. Obviously the Man existed, influenced many with the principle of non-violence. Listen: non-violence. I respect Jews, their worship,suffering and national struggle. Jesus at least should be considered Rabbi. Peace out!

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