Fratboy for Jesus, Part 1

So Mark Driscoll‘s been getting a lot of buzz in the ol’ mainstream media as of late. First in the New York Times, then a piece on Nightline. Given the fact that he’s growing in prominence and that a few of my friends seem to like him a lot, I thought I’d take the opportunity to share my thoughts on the guy.

Out of the gates, let me say, I used to be a fan. Driscoll is an engaging speaker and has tapped into the masculine aspect of Christianity that modern evangelicalism shoves under the rug.

Underneath the amusing stand-up routine, however, lies not only a shallow and sloppy biblical scholar, but a man who is crafting Christ into his own image and leading thousands to believe in his Jesus.

But what is it that draws the secular press to Mars Hill? In the opinion of this humble narrator, three things:

Driscoll’s views on men’s and women’s roles

Driscoll’s hardcore Calvinism

Driscoll’s anti-traditional views on sex and willingness to speak about them in front of God and everyone

I’m more or less in agreement with that view, and kudos to him for talking about them out in the open in Seattle. Unfortunately it seems like that attitude (especially when combined with his high-octane Calvinism) leads to a Scheibe-like, alpah-male uber-masculinity that ends up beating up anything that does not find its essence in Dudeness.

Though there is much to be said for Dudeness (St. Nicholas punched Arius in the face at Nice, tres Dude), the example of Christian masculinity is not all fratboy posturing.

Of course we could talk about St. Francis of Assisi or even the gentle but amazingly powerful leadership of Pope John Paul II of blessed memory, both extremely anti-Dude, but that would be unnecessary. We could just talk about Jesus instead.

Let’s examine this “Vintage Jesus” Driscoll likes to go on about. Jesus certainly was a “construction worker” as Driscoll often likes to point out, but the term hardly held the same connotations then that it does today. He certainly had a fire in his belly that came out at moments like the cleansing of the temple and, to be sure, he didn’t pull any verbal punches with the Pharisees.

But being intense and masculine is not the same thing as being a Dude. Jesus taught and spoke and lived with a subtlety, a wisdom and a grace that are all absent from Driscoll’s fire and brimstone, yell and cuss approach.

Driscoll also likes to allege that Jesus was a Dude from a backwater town. Once again, true, but the connotations Driscoll’s trying to put on Jesus with the phrases he uses are completely off. Jesus was a scholar. Jesus could contend with Pharisees and Rabbis on the intellectual plain. He was not some simple spoken hick who didn’t want anything to do with no fancy talk.

This aspect of Driscoll’s persona and his crafting of Our Lord into his own image seems to be a great way to excuse sloppy scholarship and low-grade intellectual chops. Driscoll could in no wise contend with any serious theological scholar.

There is also a huge danger in putting all your eggs in the Dude basket that you will end up de-valuing the feminine. Where do we see this in Driscoll and Mars Hill? Well, it’s most especially clear in his teaching on sex, but that’s for another post.

One part of his teaching on sex, however, is that women have an obligation to stay looking like they’re 19 till they’re 60, to paraphrase. The reason cited for this is that women “letting themselves go” is the leading cause of male infidelity. This would be hilarious were it not so incredibly awful.

Now, I’m all for people in general taking care of their bodies. But, and this will no doubt come as a shock to Pastor Mark one day, women get older. Especially women who have lots of babies and stay home to take care of them. And there is a beauty in that aging that it is the pleasant duty of the Christian man to appreciate. 40 will not look like 19 and that’s a good thing.

Doug Jones once wrote something about how much he loved his wife as she got older and less “good looking” by societal standards. So much so that a nubile 19 year old was laughable as a temptation.

Driscoll’s view of women treats them like a piece of ass that will lose all its value if it “lets itself go.”

So, there’s the first installment on why I think Mark Driscoll isn’t just an amusing buffoon, but dangerous and a blight on the landscape of Christendom.

Matt, i think i can agree in principle on some of what you said. But You have to realize, the dude is doing more good than bad. ALL PASTORS have faults, and imperfections in their views and their interpretations of the text. His in my mind, are less serious than all the other pastors i have encountered. However to look at what you said about the whole carpenter thing being different from what it was today, no, there is nothing new under the sun. Those carpenters were all the same, maybe they didnt have dope, but they had wine, he was a “pure carpenter” meaning he probably didnt do all the foul things they did, but he was a rough dude, choosing to do that work rather than be a politican or an upperclassmen of some sort that didnt get his hands dirty. Being that he was fully God and fully man, couldnt he be a masculine dude construction worker who was also one of the most competetive intellectually at the same time, something that has never been done?

As to the woman, ‘piece of meat’ thing you said. You are smarter than that. What he meant was this: Women dont have to get boobjobs lipo or whatever to look 18 when they are 40 so that husbands infidelity rate will decrease. They just have to care, and try to look good for their husbands. Men are visual, women are verbal. Women want to be secured and told they are loved all the time. Men are to love their wives. Women are to respect their husbands. Part of showing that respect is realizing that men are visual. Men marry their women and lets not lie, they like a good looking woman with a nice body. Most women when they are 19 or so have a decent body. This guy marries his wife when she is 130lbs not because she is 130, but because he sees that she cares, and shes got a great personality, and loves jesus. When she hits 30 and doesnt care much about the extra 30lbs she put on, thats what hes talking about. That is disrespect. Men love sex, sex is a gift from God. Is it not obvious to the world, that men cheat alot on wives? Men have a weakness. If a wife respected and loved her husband, she would see this folly or weakness of his, and try to help him, by staying attractive and not choosing to let herself go because shes married and secure with kids. Its not about being a piece of meat or being exactly 130 like she was in highschool, that probably unreasonable. Mark is just speaking to women who dont care, and are not trying to keep the sexual relationship God gave them, exciting and fulfilling to her husband. Its not that women lose value, if they let themselves go, but they lose their sexual appeal, and they have clearly lost respect for their husband. The husband, wouldnt stop loving his wife if she gained 50lbs, because her body is not who she is, but it wouldnt make him that happy sexually. And when the men wander, because their desire for their wife sexually is low, and some hot little number takes a liking to him, its harder to say no. Thats all mark was poking at. Men in the bible have fallen to this time and time again, all through history. So obviously he was just making the point that men are weak and sexual desire is built into us by God.

I believe you. and i know it will be the same for me. But my point is that by societal standards, any man at 50 is still incredibly attracted to a young 24 year old. or a 30 year old. Most of the men in the bible, even david had 19 year olds with them when they were 80 or so. Im saying that women at 50 dont have to look 20, they should just be aware of the society they are in, and respect their husband enough to try to be attractive to him, and not bank on the “till death do us part’ hes locked in! and then become a fatty, or someone who doesnt care much about appearance anymore.

Respect writes, “Im saying that women at 50 dont have to look 20, they should just be aware of the society they are in, and respect their husband enough to try to be attractive to him, and not bank on the “till death do us part’ hes locked in! and then become a fatty, or someone who doesnt care much about appearance anymore.”

Yeah, I just, personally, think that’s BS. I agree that *both* men and women should try to keep themselves reasonably well-groomed, and in reasonable shape, for health reasons if nothing else. I don’t see why this should be emphasized with respect to women but not men (confessing that all I know of Driscoll is what I’ve read in this post; for all I know he may emphasize it equally with respect to men).

There is no reason whatsoever why my wife should not bank on the “till death do us part” thing — because I am locked in, for better or for worse, for fatter or for thinner. If she starts gaining weight because she’s overeating due to depression or something, I’m going to consider it a joint problem, and the first thing I’m going to think is, “Is it my fault she’s depressed?”, and wonder what I can do to solve the problem.

But if she just gains weight because she’s getting older and she’s had a couple of kids and is not as active as she was when she was younger, I’m not going to hassle her about it. God knows she cuts me a lot of slack on my beer gut.

You can not listen to Mark Driscoll for more than ten minutes and not hear how much he loves Jesus. He is a man, powerfully used by God to bring many to repentance. In reading the above comments, I do not see God brought glory by the above comments. It is men arguing about another man. Can you look past the man, who is a sinner saved by grace, nothing more than decorated dust, and see the beauty of the message that he proclaims?
Charging someone with being sloppy in their handling of the scriptures(violating 2 Timothy 2:15), and with remaking the Lord in their own way (Violating the Second Commandment, Exodus 20) are very serious charges, offenses which would bring upon a man the fires of Hell, if he claimed to be one who follows God.
Be very careful when you sit in judgment on a man. It is a fearful thing to attribute the work of the Lord to the enemy.
We will all be lifting hands together in worship and unity, before the Great Throne. Let us keep God and Him alone at the center of our talk.

This is a man who is always talking. It is his full time job to learn, and then preach and share what God has taught him. But he is not yet in his glorified body, and he makes mistakes.
I know if half of the things I said were recorded and put on air for the whole world to hear, there would be many things that were circulated that came out the wrong way.
This is why we have grace : )

Quote from and Australian newspaper about the “letting themselves go comment”:

[“In Sydney on his first speaking tour of Australia – which culminates at the Entertainment Centre on Wednesday – the pastor of the Mars Hill mega-church in Washington state says he was only trying to say pastors were as vulnerable to marriage failure as anyone else, but admits the comments were a “stupid mistake that I sadly regret and will never do again”.

“I didn’t say it right, I screwed up, I totally screwed up because that was not what I was trying to say,” he said. “I’m going to make mistakes, I’m going to screw up, and even then it is an opportunity to learn humility, to apologise and to change.” ]

Now, I’m all for people in general taking care of their bodies. But, and this will no doubt come as a shock to Pastor Mark one day, women get older. Especially women who have lots of babies and stay home to take care of them. And there is a beauty in that aging that it is the pleasant duty of the Christian man to appreciate. 40 will not look like 19 and that’s a good thing.

I’m not so sure that Pastor Mark will be as shocked as you think, but apart from that, you are so right! A woman ought to care about pleasing her husband, but any husband worth his salt is going to be exceeding grateful for a woman who loves and pursues godliness (and childbearing / childrearing), and will rejoice in the “beauty of holiness.”

I knew a lot of ladies like that while I was in a CREC congregation. Being 40+ or 50+ and carrying a lot more weight than they did at 20 still could not mask the beauty of godly spirits, it only enhanced it. God bless them all!!!