Marilyn Kirschner (left) with
Iris Apfel (right) in her living room. Photo by Muriel Triffaut.

M.K.: What irks you most about fashion today? What do you see that
bothers you most about it?

I.A.: I think some of it is sort of
insane and some of it is not for grown women There are lots of things that
would look amusing on a 12 year old, but then you see some ladies of a certain
age trying to wearing it you know, down to here its all so
ridiculous.

M.K.: Is there any particular trend right now that
you are seeing on the street that you dont understand at all? Anything
current?

I.A.: Well on the streets in New York in the summer,
everybody looks like theyre going to the shower the flip
flops its so awful.

M.K.: What is it your summer
uniform when youre in town? What would you wear on a really hot day?

I.A.: Well I live in jeans usually so I wear a lot of jeans,
theyre cool, and theyre warm theyre everything. Or I wear
linen and a shirt or simple trousers

M.K.: And you always
accessorize Do you ever go out without accessories?

I.A.:
Well not really. I feel naked. Sometimes when its very cold, I must admit
I cannot wear silver jewelry because it gets too cold and I cannot wear my
silver eyeglasses because it burns my nose but I always wear something. I
couldnt live without my accessories.

M.K.: New York
Fashion Week is upon us. I know that youre a customer and friend and
always go to Ralph Ruccis shows. Are there any other invitations that
youve received?

I.A.: No, nobody invites me. I know Ralph
so hes always invited me But I met Michael Vollbracht (head of
design for Bill Blass) who is adorable and who was a guest at a luncheon given
in my honor in Palm Beach, and he came and so we sort of fell in love,
hes a very, very nice man .very talented. We are residents of Palm
Beach .but we keep this place because we come and go I am still
working we sold our company to Stark Carpets 13 and ½ years
ago but were still there as consultants.

M.K.: I
just want to go back to the idea of the designers. I know that you wear Ralph
Ruccis clothes. What other contemporary designers clothes do you
wear?

I.A.: I.A.: I love Gianfranco Ferre Geoffrey Beene I
adored although he is gone I know theyre trying to carry on I
hope it works, I hope it works . I like architectural clothes I also
like amusing clothes and I like Moschino, and I like Gauthier, and I like
Krizia I still wear my Galanoses I think Jimmy is just the
greatest .so wonderful and self-effacing and Norell .I love
Norell I have everybodys clothes because everybody has something
that I like .but there are designers that I like but they dont
make my kind of clothes

M.K.: Are there any kinds of
clothes or styles that categorically, you can honestly say, I would never
wear that?

I.A.: Well Madame Gres was certainly marvelous
but her chiffon dresses are just not for me. I dont wear Chanel because I
feel that..if I had a granddaughter I would be wearing her. They just
dont hang right. That doesnt take away from the fact that they are
brilliant they are wonderful, but I am happy in architectural clothes. I have a
number of Yves Saint Laurent things This (referring to her black leather
tunic shirt) is YSL Then I buy a lot of things that dont have
labels. When I went to H&M I fell in love with a fake fur and a skirt and
they were both on sale I paid $29 for the skirt and $79 for the fake fur.

I.A.: I dont care what people think I learned a long
time ago I was 19 and had a very traumatic experience .and I learned
that I have to go to bed with myself at night and that I have to please
myself and as long as I dont go out of my way to offend anybody that
I love, upset my mother or my husband Ill do my own thing. And if
the public doesnt like it, its their problem, not mine.

M.K.: Is there anything you ever put on and looked at yourself in the
mirror and said, Nope, I cant go out with this, its too over
the top?

I.A.: No, very rarely. Stephane always says that
Im controlled baroque. Harold says that underneath all my
madness there is some sort of Zen ethics .I try to be controlled, I try to
stop .Tomorrow I have to do something for Paper and I guess I
have to go over the top but then again I dont know what that
is Im not into that downtown scene .I guess well come up
with something

M.K.: You are not a trend follower. Are
there any retail stores that you think do particularly well in drawing people
in?

I.A.: Bergdorf Goodman was always wonderful Barneys
brings in a certain segment of society I have never been able to shop
there Years ago Barneys clothes only fit smaller women and years ago
almost everything was black, beige or taupe. I like color. They do have a
wonderful shoe department there

I dont have much luck
believe it or not. One woman almost came to blows with me at the exhibit
because she said Oh they said you worked but you dont I
said what do you mean I dont work? "Well how could you
possibly work and have accumulated all this? This is a lifes work." So I
said Well I work, I did this on the fly I dont go shopping too
often Its like an excursion when I do

M.K.: Do you miss the 26th street flea market?

A.I.: Oh
yes, well all the flea markets are finished now its sad, its
sad Everything is gone really I miss a lot but what can you do? You
go on .

M.K.: Can you recall the least amount of money you
spent on something that was really a true gem? Something that you recognized
but that the seller didnt? (Iris had told me about a tweed and leather
Bonnie Cashin coat she paid $7 for at a D.C. flea market)

I.A.:
Oh yes I have a lot of things like that. Oh theres something I just found
in Loehmanns .. For my birthday I go to Loehmanns because I
get a 15% discount, its very exciting and I found this wonderful,
wonderful completely beaded coat from Ralph Lauren and it is so gorgeous
all the way down to the floor and I wont tell you its price because
its ridiculous its divine and very Marlene Dietrich with
crystalline beads on white chiffon and it was way too long although I am
fairly tall and I went to three dressmakers and they all said they were
afraid to tackle it and I didnt know what to do Ralph Rucci said
hed fix it but I didnt want to trouble him then I met Mr.
Ralph Lauren and when I told him he said Oh well fix it. So
its now being fixed. Its not like years ago but you can still get
very good buys .

M.K.: You are ageless. What are your
beauty and diet secrets? What do you use?

I.A.: Oh I dont
have any. I wear no make up, just lipstick.

M.K.: Moisturizer?

I.A.: My mother used to say that I should use it, she died and
I promised I would .I dont do any of this, its awful.

M.K.: Exercise?

I.A.: I am very active but I dont
do organized exercise. I should. And when I am in Palm Beach we have a
little gym and a trainer in the building and she gives wonderful classes and I
go down every morning but I must admit since weve started the show
which was like seven months ago I havent done anything.

M.K.: What is your must read each month?

I.A.:
I dont have any must really. I always look at New
York Magazine when I am here to see whats going on I do everything
that inspires and moves me . M.K.: No fashion magazines?

I.A.:
No, I lost my interest in what is going on unfortunately and I
dont understand a lot of magazines, I dont understand showing
$20,000 dresses on 14 year old models . Doesnt make any sense to me.
I went to a show in Palm Beach recently which had beautiful clothes but I
had never seen such itsy bitsy models I asked, What nursery did you
rob? And was told, We really had a problem because our samples were so
small, our regular in-house girls couldnt fit into them. The girls
must have been 14 and 15 years old Now how can an intelligent middle aged
or older woman who is a bit buxom relate? I said isnt that
self-defeating? Obviously not I think women should learn to look in
the mirror

M.K.: When I walked around the exhibit there
were groups of women who were talking out loud and their conversations were
unbelievable, because most of them could not believe that you actually wore
those clothes out. Many said, Oh she probably designed that just for the
exhibit . They did not understand that these were actually your
clothes worn by you in almost the exact way they were exhibited. I was just
wondering if in your travels to the museum you heard any conversations like
that?

I.A.: Oh yes many times People asked questions like
that all the time or they asked where do I keep my clothes?
did I wear everything?

M.K. When I was at the Met, it was on the Thursday afternoon
that cover story about you had come out in the Style section of The New York
Times and observed a lot of people walking. I asked one of the guards if he had
noticed more people and said yes so they seem to be very well aware
of your exhibit. Do you think the guards helped your cause there?

I.A.: Oh the guards were wonderful, because the first few weeks we had no
PR at all and it wasnt being advertised as it had no sponsor and if the
guards werent so kind we probably would have had a smaller audience. They
loved it which flattered me to no end because they see shows all the time...and
one guard would tell his friend who was in the Chinese collection or he
would tell his friend who was in the European Collection and before we knew it
we had a whole support system. And people would be looking at a beautiful
painting and the guard would say If you really want to see a good show go
downstairs to the Costume Institute. The same thing happened at the desk,
people would ask for instructions Please tell me how to get to the
Prague show and they were told, if you want to do yourself a favor
after the Prague show go down and see the costume collection.

And
everybody who saw it its incredible, they all brought people, they
all came back with several friends and it just mushroomed. The thing
thats incredible is...so many people have come 2, 3, 4 .I had a man
who told me hes been back seven times It seems to have touched a
nerve. It seems to be something that people have wanted for a very long time
and they are so happy that its happened. The women feel liberated and we
have lots of men coming. Women come and tell me that theyre so happy that
their husbands come and have a good time and dont complain. Some of the
men have asked to come back a second time.

M.K.: I was recently
at a CFDA party and I spoke with several designers and I had mentioned that I
was interviewing you and they all said Oh my God shes so fabulous,
I want to send her something 

I.A.: Oh that would be
marvelous! Michele Stein (a well known fashion figure who reps several top
Milanese designers) wanted me to come and see the show and asked me to
ring her up at my first opportunity to take her through along with her
staff .And she said This is absolutely incredible I just got
off the phone with Romeo Gigli and he told me that his next collection is based
on your show I was really flattered, its incredible.

M.K.: So you might have to go to Paris and see his fall
collection maybe the models will all come out wearing your black framed
owl glasses

I.A.: I have a pair of Romeos black
trousers with white beads

M.K.: When he first started
showing his collections in Milan in the eighties it was just incredible.

I.A.: It was very magical. I love wild imagination thats
under control. I dont like what some of these wacky people are doing now
but I do like when designers take care Thats what I admire so much
about Ralph .everything is so beautifully made I mean its just
gorgeous.

M.K.: Its just like Geoffrey Beene. You could
turn it inside out.

I.A.: Well if you want to turn things
inside out you should take a trip to Galanos His insides are sometimes
more beautiful than outside .

M.K.: I remember his shows
when I was at Harpers Bazaar and he used to take a suite at the Plaza
Hotel and painstakingly show everything by himself.

I.A.: I
have been taken to one of those shows by an old friend who was in the fashion
business and I was thrilled to pieces and that night I went to a party and
Geoffrey Beene happened to be there and there was a couple of very young
fashion writers .And they said to me, we went to the weirdest show
today there was no big music and everything was so quiet and the models
were just walking with little signs with just numbers, isnt that
strange? I said No darling thats the way it used to
be Thats the way you should have a fashion show, you should be
there to look at the clothes, not to get up and dance I dont know
how people can concentrate with the music. Some fashion shows are really just
spectacles

M.K.: What is the most memorable show that you
have ever seen?

I.A.: Well I guess its because I was much
younger and because it was Balenciaga .But I dont know if you
remember Sidney Gittler .

M.K.: I know the name

I.A.: He was very important he started a line for Orbachs. And
once for my birthday he said youre going to be in Paris, let me
take you to a Balenciaga opening .And oh my God that was
incredible I adore Balenciaga.

M.K.: What do you think of
what Nicolas Guesquiere is doing for the label now?

I.A.: Well.
Its not Balenciaga .I dont know much about it, I havent
seen too much.

M.K.: And what do you think of the other current
editorial darlings: Olivier Theyskens for Rochas and Alber Elbaz for Lanvin?

I.A.: I had a friend who said, If you are in Paris you
have to meet my friend Alber Elbaz. We had just come from tea at the
British Embassy we had had no time for lunch and it was cold and we were
starving and we went up to Lanvin where Alber was doing his collections and he
was just like a Jewish mother. He was so sweet. I think hes a big talent.
And I always like when someone is a talent and a person.

M.K.:
You mentioned that you like Ralph Ruccis models.

I.A.:
Yes because they all are good looking women but theyre not distinctive
and theyre not supermodels. When Naomi Campbell comes out you look at
Naomi first. The clothes are secondary .But Ralphs models are very
well trained and you can look at the clothes which is what you go to the show
for.

M.K.: Ralph told me that I had to ask you to tell me the
story about the Mongolian lamb.

I.A.: Oh he loves this story. I
was the first one in America to have a Mongolian lamb Oh God, it goes back
a thousand years .we were going down the Rue St. Honore and you know how
it curls sometimes .it was in the early sixties .A photographer was
dragging his equipment and this coat and a hat and I saw the most
wonderful thing - this coat my hair was like that at the time, it went
from black to white .and I said to the cab driver, Oh my God. Stop,
stop! Let me out And I jumped out and I followed this poor guy and he
went into Lanvin so I followed him upstairs and he was returning this coat that
was part of a collection He had it on a photo shoot and I spoke to the
vendeuse and I said I must have that coat and she said Oh I
am sorry but its in the collection and I cant sell it to you
now come to the collection and if you like it well make you
one. I said I have no time to come to the collection, I am here
working. I have to have that coat and I cant wait I carried on
so she promised me that after the two shows, I could have it. So I grabbed it
and went back to New York...it was a three quarter simple Mongolian fur coat
and it had a great matching hat and I liked it so because when I put it on you
could not tell where the fur ended and I began! Its one of my favorite
purchases that I still wear.

M.K.: That wasnt in the
exhibit.

I.A.: No. There were so many things that they wanted
to use but they didnt have the space. We could have had, literally,
Harold will tell you .Stephane as well..at least 3 more shows. I have so
much stuff.

M.K: Well lets hope they plan another one.

I.A.: Oh I am sure they wont. One is enough!

M.K.: How did you feel about the title of the exhibit, Rara Avis
(which is Latin for rare bird)?

I.A.: I guess I
didnt really get it at first but then I was informed by
Stephane that the late Richard Martin, (the famed former Curator of the Costume
Institute) used to refer to me as "that rare bird" so it grew on me. I guess
that wouldnt have gone over). But then I was told that Richard Martin
(the famed former curator of the Costume Institute) used to refer to me as
that rare bird so it grew on me.

M.K.: Out of
curiousity, what would you have called it if you had your say?

I.A.: (Laughing) Oh, probably something like, Out of the
Closet, though I don't think that would have gone over too well.M.K.: I want to thank you so much for letting us in your fabulous
apartment.

I.A.: Well it was a great pleasure to have you. It
is such an honor for me as I said. To be associated with people like Ralph
Rucci and Bill Cunningham, oh my God! Like I died and went to heaven!

M.K.: Well you completely deserve the recognition; youre
a true original and youve inspired so many people. Thats what life
is really all about.