What would my grandad have known as a 3rd degree mason?

Originally posted by whenandwhere
What exactly do you (and others) think these judges , politicians , cops and other public figures are doing in the lodge ?

Conspiring with each other, against the public good.

If I knew these politicians/judges/cops where trying to screw us (the general public) over , I would shout it from the roof tops..

No you wouldn't, and that's the whole point of swearing the oaths of secrecy. A mason is not permitted to reveal anything he learns at lodge.

So, for example, if during a lodge meeting, a brother learns that another brother was involved in a crime, he could not report this information to the
police, because he is sworn to keep all things discovered during lodge meeting a secret, never to be revealed.

And before you throw the old "You took an Oath...." bit , Yes I took an oath , but not one that allows others to screw over myself , my family and
friends and the general population . Like I said , if I knew something was going on that was detrimental to the people I would take it to the streets
, the papers , the news , the internet .

Sometimes people do try to talk, like Representative "Ron Brown", his famous last words, "If I go down, I'm taking everyone with me", just before he
apparently went down in a plane crash in Serbia.l

Yes, you can try to speak. But, to whom would you tell? Who will save you from the penalties?

Originally posted by Noble01
Any good Christian would not have a problem with giving up they SS# right? I;m sure I can find a Bible verse to back this up.

You don't need my SS# because you're not paying me to do anything for you.

I give my SS# willingly to all who pay me to serve them.

That's the essential point.

The Public Servants are the ones that we are concerned about, and not the private citizens, because it's people whom we "pay" to serve us that
we'd like to ensure are really serving us, and not some other "higher" interests, while taking our monies.

Originally posted by GreatOwl
The large percentage of public figures present among the membership gives us cause for concern.

Like who? Surely you have names of these public
figures who are confirmed Masons…

I'm sure the new law passed in England a few years back requiring all public officials to identify themselves as Freemasons or Non-Freemasons should
have by now have produced a list of members in that society.

Originally posted by whenandwhere
What exactly do you (and others) think these judges , politicians , cops and other public figures are doing in the lodge ?

Conspiring with each other, against the public good.

Then you should close down bars, nightclubs, dark alleys, back rooms, any place where two people might be able to slip away.

Please tell me you aren't this daft. You do see that if public officials wanted to conspire against you, they don't need a masonic lodge to do
it.

You just need a scapegoat. Try on a new jacket. It's called personal responsibility.

You don't like what the mean old politicians are doing, become one and change it. You are scared of the big bad boogyman in masonic lodges, join and
find out if they exist. Or you could sit on your couch, eat Cheetos, and type whinny posts on ATS.

Originally posted by GreatOwl
The large percentage of public figures present among the membership gives us cause for concern.

What statistics are you pulling to say there is a "large percentage"?

But, when the people we put our trust in, are holding secret meetings in mysterious brotherhoods, with strange rules of secrecy requiring
members to pledge their allegiance to the order first before the public oaths, then, of course, "it makes us think", as you so artfully put
it.

Except there is nothing in Freemasonry that says our allegiance in the order first. In fact, it is said time and time again that family, God, work,
and country (in no particular order) comes before the Craft. I'd ask you to show us where in our ritual it ever says this.

Originally posted by GreatOwl
We don't really want the right to enter your halls, just the right to prevent the public officials from entering.

That's unconstitutional.

Because the church lets us come in and see what the public officials are doing while they are at church.

Maybe they are having secret meetings? (Okay, I'm being rediculous, but no less than you are)

Originally posted by GreatOwl

Originally posted by whenandwhere
What exactly do you (and others) think these judges , politicians , cops and other public figures are doing in the lodge ?

Conspiring with each other, against the public good.

What proof do you have of this?

No you wouldn't, and that's the whole point of swearing the oaths of secrecy. A mason is not permitted to reveal anything he learns at
lodge.

No, we're not allowed to reveal secrets. I've talked plenty about the Lodge. I can tell you how boring the meetings are.

How can we shelter a criminal and thus be criminals ourselves, and be good Masons when we are charged in the 1st degree to obey the laws of the
land?

So you don't have any statistics? Are you just making assumptions then? Actually many refused to answer from my memory. I know some did, but others
just didn't answer the survey.

FYI, I'm a National Guardsman, former full-timer, and most who know me know that I am a Mason as I'm not shy about my membership and I wear a ring,
but the second something like what England had came down the pipeline I would take my ring off and refuse to answer. I would hope that others,
particularly public officials, had the fortitude to do the same and fight unconstitutional intrusion.

Originally posted by Noble01
Any good Christian would not have a problem with giving up they SS# right? I;m sure I can find a Bible verse to back this up.

You don't need my SS# because you're not paying me to do anything for you.

I give my SS# willingly to all who pay me to serve them.

That's the essential point.

The Public Servants are the ones that we are concerned about, and not the private citizens, because it's people whom we "pay" to serve us that
we'd like to ensure are really serving us, and not some other "higher" interests, while taking our monies.

And you are not paying Freemasons to do anything for YOU. So why do you need to know about what goes on behind closed doors. You villify us because of
your own fear and insecurities. It is the Gov officials (County or other wise) who you/we pay for services NOT Freemasons. I believe you are highly
confused, or have had some bad experiences. Just because a man is an Official who and also happen to be a Freemason doesn't he is dishonest in his
dealings. Being an Official and a Freemason is entirely two different things.

Originally posted by GreatOwl
I'm sure the new law passed in England a few years back requiring all public officials to identify themselves as Freemasons or Non-Freemasons should
have by now have produced a list of members in that society.

I will ask this , if I am not "high enough" , how did you come upon the information you have ? It is amazing how I am clueless as a "low level"
member , yet you are so much more knowledgeable concerning Freemasonry .

Sometimes I really wish Freemasonry was just as secretive and powerfully manipulative, with all this deep insider esoteric knowledge, as all the
fundies and conspiracy kooks think it is. I might actually join.

Originally posted by MrDesolate
Sometimes I really wish Freemasonry was just as secretive and powerfully manipulative, with all this deep insider esoteric knowledge, as all the
fundies and conspiracy kooks think it is. I might actually join.
:

No need to wish, how else would you "make good men better" if you didn't "manipulate" something to try and test them? You only need pay attention
to what they say, to understand what they do. It's not so hard, really.

Originally posted by GreatOwl
No more ridiculous than people to take secret oaths seriously.

That fact that I took an oath to help, aid and assist all those who are poor and distressed is so far removed from the belief in 'hidden entities'
(whatever the hell that means) it is beyond comparing apples to oranges, it is like comparing apples to guaca-friggin-mole.

I will ask this , if I am not "high enough" , how did you come upon the information you have ? It is amazing how I am clueless as a "low level"
member , yet you are so much more knowledgeable concerning Freemasonry .

edit on 30-8-2012 by whenandwhere because: (no reason given)

I'm using a different kind of information. I don't need to know what the secrets of Freemasonry are. Only the higher ups in Freemasonry are expected
to know these things. All I need to know is that there are secrets in existence. That leads to the question "why". Why would it be necessary to keep
secrets? Regardless of the exact content of those secrets, the need for secrecy tells me that something contrary to publicity is involved.

Now, when we hire a public servant, they are expected to serve publicly, so that the services they provide us with is open to inspection and review by
those who have hired them, which is us, the general public. But, the things they do in private and under the cloak of secrecy is not open to
inspection and review by us. So, if we know that a particular public servant is a Freemason, that tells us immediately that part of his activities are
contrary to the public good. We don't really need to know the exact details of that secret activity. The mere fact that it is secret and private is
sufficient knowledge for us to judge that it is against the public good. That is because, it is not subject to our review. So, the standards of
knowing are different from insider to outsider.

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