epic hero - Rape is fucking disgusting, but I don't know exactly what happened that night. I'm not grabbing my pitchfork as of yet, I think Lloyd deserves a chance to explain himself.

If the accusations are true then I have no symphony. But most guys have seen at least one girl try to "play the game" before. I know a girl who was touched innapropriately at work and her parents convinced her to file complaints against her coworkers, basically just out of spite and try to get them fired.

If the accusations are in fact true, Lloyd deserves the backlash. Only the lowest of scum would do something like that. But when a girl goes to hang out and get drunk with SEVEN dudes she barely knows, it makes me somewhat skeptical. But like I said, if these accusations are true, Lloyd deserves whatever criticism he gets from this point on.

Didn't he explain himself at the trial?

His explanation was that he tried to be the last man standing in his little #rapecrew but couldn't get the "standing" part sorted.

And while he was trying to, his buddy was forcing to girl to blow him, for which he was convicted.

All the LI apologists need to re-read that bit.While LI was trying to get a stiffy, his buddy was forcing the girl to blow him!!

randomposter - I am going to write this, and then I'm gonna stop. I don't want to be associated in any way with the idea that Lloyd Irvin did or did not participate in, was present at, and/or didn't do anything to stop a gang rape. And I certainly don't want to be made into some kind of spokesman for that position. I am only trying to get some of you to tap the brakes a second. Calling someone a rapist is serious business. I think each one of us, were we in that position, that is, having someone make that accusation, would ask that his accusers at least have all the facts. That's only fair.

I hope you're a tax attorney?

It's not a matter of accusing. LI's own DEFENSE to a charge or rape was that couldn't get it up!!

By his OWN ADMISSION he had every intent of having intercourse with the girl.

While he was trying to get it up, his friend forced the victim to perform oral sex on him.

Those are the facts. As an attorney, do you not believe in the jury system? I bet you believe in it when you get a result that suits you?

I don't think people's issue is that LI was an "almost" rapist, but rather that his poor judgement & treatment of women as a 20 year old are quite interesting, given a couple of his students (around the same age?) have now been accused of the same thing.

I was at TLI up until 3 years ago (contract ended, didn't renew it). I can say that they obviously don't advertise that Lloyd is a rapist (or tried).... A lot of the ppl there are young kids and older adults, so its kinda F@cked up to hate on his students when they had no idea about his case from 1990. I never trained under "master" lloyd because Mike fowler, who is an awesome instructer, ran most of the white belt/blue belt classes. I don't post much (lurker), but if you have any questions i will try to answer them as best as possible.

alkysmurf -
So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid.

Now, possibly as a result of what he personally seen happen to women, he teaches them how to protect themselves. And you guys jump all over his shit, before hearing his side of a 20yr old story.

This. Interesting how most of the posters that are calling for his head are also cracking jokes about it here and on other threads.

What would you guys have him do? Should he shut down his business, where he has probably helped thousands of people?

This sounds like a utilitarian kind of argument---the calculus of weighing goods---and I don't think it's insane, but don't you think it ignores a significant dimension of moral demands as they are *in practice*? Don't we need, in reality, a verbal confession before we accept services rendered (Lloyd running a school) as payment for the crime?

2Jupes said it well. The legal dimension is what it is, but Lloyd shouldn't expect to skirt by in the public eye. The hell to pay THERE cannot be argued away slick-willy fashion, and fake confessions rarely work (except in white collar crime, where politicians ride on the fact that money is, compared to flesh, abstract, and so can confess to "mistakes" and expect to get a pass).

Ok, so you think if Lloyd came out and publicly apologized and said...

he was absolutely sorry for what he had done, he's not that person, and he's tried to do everything he can since then to help people (which from the outside it looks like he has done in many respects), you'd would what, forgive him?

Or does he need to shut down his business? Go to prison? What's the end result with all this? How would he best resolve it, if not in what he has actually done by helping people?

Well, this is a good question. He would "best resolve it" by realizing the foulness of his actions in his heart, and communicating that in a public confession, perhaps offering communication to the victim. But the *results* of this are not up to him. That is decided by the public and the victims, with the victim's thoughts taking priority.

What CAN'T be allowed is a guilty party dictating the terms of an apology, and expecting results in white-collar politician con-game "mistakes were made" style.

---it usually starts with a confession (though in the Sandy Hook case, as we know, the forgiveness process could not have happened this way, since the perp is dead). The problem as I see it with your "How would he best resolve it, if not in what he has actually done by helping people?" is that his actions were not anyone's demand, not the result of public justice. It becomes in reality another slick-willy argument.

I understand the rationale of the argument though: "the total amount of good he's done outweighs the bad."

But the victim has first priority, and I think the public should take its cue from what the victim has to say. And she would be very unlikely to forgive him, given that he confessed to nothing when it counted. But IF it helped her move on, say, then why not support her.

Understand I'm not starting a "forgive Lloyd" movement. For now, fuck him. But if you're asking what would *I* want, personally, as justice? The mere outing of this information should take care of matters on its own: his business should dwindle, probably to unrecoverable levels.

My point in all this is that forgiveness is an important part of the human horizon, and it's worth talking about. But Lloyd can't just point to the past and say "time served." Because nobody will buy it. Will you say a confession at this convenient time will entail crocodile tears? I would agree. But such tears are hard to fake forever. Somebody usually outs the fake confessor.

Timothyk - Do you really think this girl went over to hang out with a bunch of dudes, and not have sex with any of them? Do you know how many girls have trains run on them? Or like to be hit while fucked? Or lie about rape to soothe parent anger?

Utilitarian arguments usually entail exotic thought experiments, which is why I don't weigh them too much.

For example, you could say, "Which future world do you want, a world in which ONE woman is harmed, but THOUSANDS are helped and empowered; OR, a world in which ONE woman is unharmed, but THOUSANDS of others unhelped and unempowered? DECIDE!!"

In this simple calculus, the events are treated as causally finished. So sure, in SUCH a world, I would take the numerically greater good over the bad. But the problem is, THIS world is not such a world. The far-reaching consequences are incalculable; basically, we live in a world of butterfly effects and we cannot know the global consequences of batting an eyelash much less helping or harming a single person.

It seems better to me to live by moral principles that address what we can calculate within reasonable horizons. And backward glances cannot count as part of the calculus of utilitarian estimations, because the reasoning is post-hoc and essentially derived from running a convenient thought experiment in which ALL the consequences are calculated.

Timothyk - Do you really think this girl went over to hang out with a bunch of dudes, and not have sex with any of them? Do you know how many girls have trains run on them? Or like to be hit while fucked? Or lie about rape to soothe parent anger?

Anyway. I'll let the utilitarian matter drop so as not to derail the thread. But one last thing: questions like "What would you have him do" are actually thought experiments, since I don't have wand-waving power. I'm more concerned with what I CAN do, which is refuse to support the a-hole, and slander him morally unless extraordinary events come about, like public confession combined with forgiveness from the victim. And I'll admit straight up that is all very unlikely---but it's not Dungeons and Dragons fantasy, and I prefer to think of a human being in general as open-ended and capable of extraordinary acts. But I'll drop this because I've (hopefully) made the point.

Reinhardt, this is the mistake loyal members of the flock made making apologies at Penn State for Sandusky. If you want to risk your reputation by making excuses for a guy who hid a rape story and promoted rape prevention classes, go for it.

I don't think anyone is denying that there are false convictions with innocent men in prison as well as women who never reported a rape and men who should be in prison walking free. The fact is Lloyd sat and watched an intoxicated minor get fucked by multiple dudes, and probably would've participated if he could've got it up. Which leads me to believe it was a rape, and that's why he wasn't able to hold an erection. At 20 this shouldn't be a problem. Says something about your character if you could sit and watch that shit happen.

For example, you could say, "Which future world do you want, a world in which ONE woman is harmed, but THOUSANDS are helped and empowered; OR, a world in which ONE woman is unharmed, but THOUSANDS of others unhelped and unempowered? DECIDE!!"

In this simple calculus, the events are treated as causally finished. So sure, in SUCH a world, I would take the numerically greater good over the bad. But the problem is, THIS world is not such a world. The far-reaching consequences are incalculable; basically, we live in a world of butterfly effects and we cannot know the global consequences of batting an eyelash much less helping or harming a single person.

It seems better to me to live by moral principles that address what we can calculate within reasonable horizons. And backward glances cannot count as part of the calculus of utilitarian estimations, because the reasoning is post-hoc and essentially derived from running a convenient thought experiment in which ALL the consequences are calculated.

Here's a quote: "At one point, one of the men talked about how easy it would be to toss the slightly built, 5-foot-2-inch woman over the balcony. She said she was watching television when one of the men asked her to step into the bedroom so he could talk to her.

The woman said that man and a friend began pulling her clothes off and forcing her onto the bed. She said one man had oral sex with her while the other had sexual intercourse with her.

"I couldn't breathe and I couldn't understand why they were doing this to me," she said.

Other men came in and raped her repeatedly, she said. After the group left, Gatling and Irvin came in and closed the door behind them, she said.

"I was lying on the bed crying," the woman testified, maintaining her composure. "I was trying to figure out what I was going to do."

At that point, she said, Irvin began having sexual intercourse with her while Gatling held her down and forced her to have oral sex with him. The girl said she did not cry out for help because she was afraid one of the men might follow through with the threat to throw her off the balcony."

Brutal.

Testimony like this, channeled through an old news outlet, is of course worth nothing and anyone disturbed by it should consult the Master before passing judgment. After all, we weren't there and the whole thing was probably a silly misunderstanding.

whoa. id like to hear what master lloyd has to say about this if he is man enough.

Timothyk - Do you really think this girl went over to hang out with a bunch of dudes, and not have sex with any of them? Do you know how many girls have trains run on them? Or like to be hit while fucked? Or lie about rape to soothe parent anger?

Do you know how retarded you'd have to be to be a 20 something year old guy and think "hmm having group sex with this 17 year old girl who has been drinking all night definitely sounds like a good idea"

I come on here for some laughs and mma banter, but this shit just got real deep

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