I agree 100%. I can't believe some of the comments on this board defending their performance in this last game. We hear that they intentionally sat back to stuff the run. Except the Panthers still ran for over 100 yards and moved the chains throughout the game. TD (clock-killing) drives of 90, 81, and 80 yards? But the run defense has allowed over 100 yards since the ATL game. That's a trend. It looks like Vellano is wearing down (predictably).

I'm ready to move on from Andre Carter too at DE. He's lost his speed/strength.

Yeah sorry, I started this thread yesterday then went to work, the notion that we told our defensive tackles not to push the pocket is ridiculous. Cam Newton had all day to throw because our tackles were being blocked one on one, they got no inside push or pressure at all, none. If these posters are saying BB had our tackles stay home and play 2 gap to protect against Newton running than they failed miserably at that as well.

I can't believe after the first few games, watching how dominant our pass rush and overall defense was, compared to what we're seeing now, that posters can't tell the difference. Before we were in the argument for the best defense in the NFL, now we're going back to the last few years of being middle of the pack, allowing big yardage, our third down defense grade is dropping so fast it hurts and the worst part we're not even causing turnovers (fumbles) like we did in the past.

We've lost the ability to stop teams on third down because we can't just send four rushers and get to the QB like we did early in the season, so instead we're dropping everyone back and teams are running for those first downs or we're rushing everyone and they're passing for them. Our defensive tackles are soft, they're undrafted free agents, they might be good in complementary roles but that's it.

This defense was amazing until Vince and Kelly went down, defensive tackle is currently the biggest weakness on this team, you don't have to agree but you'd be wrong.

How about this? We got hosed at the end and the lone turnover by Ridley was really the difference in the game.

Not really the topic of the thread, but no, the Ridley turnover was not the difference. The Pats came back to take the lead with 6 minutes left in the 4th quarter. With the game in the balance the Panthers moved 83 yards for a TD. That's bend AND break, just like the last SB. And much like the last SB, the Pats had SIX offensive possessions before their last 59 second desperation drive. SIX possessions requires perfection on offense to win.

False. Arrington and a nagging groin injury that he can't shake or Talib off the field are not really avoidable situations.

Ridley fumbling again....IS.

Case closed.

If we had run that thing into the end zone on one of the next handful of plays, Carolina has no clock left at the end.

Turnovers in playoff games, on the road, in SBs, are NOT a good thing. The game is more than just the last 2 minutes, little guy.

It's what you do through all 4 qtrs that matter. You must be new to football.

There is no doubt...that fumble had big implications in this game. Another moment on offense that also likely had an impact was the decision not to run on that 3rd and 1, just before they kicked the go-ahead field goal. I thought for sure that they would run up to the line and do a quick snap hand-off. At that point, they had Carolina on their heals. If they managed to continue that drive and punch it in, we're likely looking at a very different outcome.

Speaking to the basic point of the thread, I see no need to make changes at the DT position if those changes would be performance based. The data provided above amply supports an intereior defensive line that performed quite well against the run and I see no need to repeat it here.

Speaking to the basic point of the thread, I see no need to make changes at the DT position if those changes would be performance based. The data provided above amply supports an intereior defensive line that performed quite well against the run and I see no need to repeat it here.

I am assuming you are just talking about Low's breakdown of the run D stats.

I looked at some of the other stats that are related to the pass D and I actually don't even see that the Carolina DL and performed much better than these second strongers. Don't get me wrong, I loved Short and Lotulelei before the draft, and I have been wanting Pats to draft those kinds of DTs, I can see that drafting those DTs would not ahve been a mistake. However, just on this game alone, the Pats DTs were not as bad as some perceive it.

Looking at the sacks and TFLs...

NWE had 3 sacks versus CAR's 2

NWE and CAR had 3 TFLs each.

Granted CAR had 6 QB hits to NWE's 2.

But here's the thing, how many sacks or QB hits would NWE have had if that QB was not as elusive as Newton is?

I can tell you that on that longest run by Newton, if NWE penetrated like that against any other QB, that would have been a sack. I even thought that would have been a sack if Nink had not been held from behind. I'll have to watch the video again.

Speaking to the basic point of the thread, I see no need to make changes at the DT position if those changes would be performance based. The data provided above amply supports an intereior defensive line that performed quite well against the run and I see no need to repeat it here.

I am assuming you are just talking about Low's breakdown of the run D stats.

I looked at some of the other stats that are related to the pass D and I actually don't even see that the Carolina DL and performed much better than these second strongers. Don't get me wrong, I loved Short and Lotulelei before the draft, and I have been wanting Pats to draft those kinds of DTs, I can see that drafting those DTs would not ahve been a mistake. However, just on this game alone, the Pats DTs were not as bad as some perceive it.

Looking at the sacks and TFLs...

NWE had 3 sacks versus CAR's 2

NWE and CAR had 3 TFLs each.

Granted CAR had 6 QB hits to NWE's 2.

But here's the thing, how many sacks or QB hits would NWE have had if that QB was not as elusive as Newton is?

I can tell you that on that longest run by Newton, if NWE penetrated like that against any other QB, that would have been a sack. I even thought that would have been a sack if Nink had not been held from behind. I'll have to watch the video again.

I don't think the sack stats always tell the whole story especially in this game. Haven't been able to rewatch the game yet but my initial thoughts were that Carolina had much more consistent pressure on Brady compared to the Pats pressure on Newton. Newton had all day to throw a lot of times whereas Brady for the most part had to get the ball out quickly.

I think the QB hits in this case are a more telling indicator than sacks. I haven't seen any stats on QB pressures for the game either.

Speaking to the basic point of the thread, I see no need to make changes at the DT position if those changes would be performance based. The data provided above amply supports an intereior defensive line that performed quite well against the run and I see no need to repeat it here.

I am assuming you are just talking about Low's breakdown of the run D stats.

I looked at some of the other stats that are related to the pass D and I actually don't even see that the Carolina DL and performed much better than these second strongers. Don't get me wrong, I loved Short and Lotulelei before the draft, and I have been wanting Pats to draft those kinds of DTs, I can see that drafting those DTs would not ahve been a mistake. However, just on this game alone, the Pats DTs were not as bad as some perceive it.

Looking at the sacks and TFLs...

NWE had 3 sacks versus CAR's 2

NWE and CAR had 3 TFLs each.

Granted CAR had 6 QB hits to NWE's 2.

But here's the thing, how many sacks or QB hits would NWE have had if that QB was not as elusive as Newton is?

I can tell you that on that longest run by Newton, if NWE penetrated like that against any other QB, that would have been a sack. I even thought that would have been a sack if Nink had not been held from behind. I'll have to watch the video again.

I don't think the sack stats always tell the whole story especially in this game. Haven't been able to rewatch the game yet but my initial thoughts were that Carolina had much more consistent pressure on Brady compared to the Pats pressure on Newton. Newton had all day to throw a lot of times whereas Brady for the most part had to get the ball out quickly.

I think the QB hits in this case are a more telling indicator than sacks. I haven't seen any stats on QB pressures for the game either.

1) I never said sack numbers tell the whole story. It almost never does -- Neither does TFL nor QB hits. That is why I brought up three stats.

2) It is not true that Newton had all day to throw the ball. NWE was actually bringing good rushes, but on most snaps, Newton did a good job of releasing the ball quickly. On a handful of occasions he extended play by scrambling. On a couple of those scrambles, pressure forced him to within

He had...

21 passes that he released the ball in 2.5 secs or less.

2 passes resulted in sacks that were made within 2.5 secs or less of the snap

2 snaps when he was forced to scramble within 2.5 secs or less

3 snaps where he was forced to scramble within 3 secs or less, but more than 2.5 secs.

3 snaps where threw the ball within 3 secs or less, but more than 2.5 secs

3 snaps when he had more than 3 secs to throw the ball

There were three TD passes. They were released in 2.3, 2.1, 1.7 secs respectively.

Yes... it's okay to say that the other QB played really well. He made quick decisions and for the most part, teh right decisions.

Look... I am not saying they were lights out. But considering CN's ability to escape and extend plays, I am not seeing how anyone can say the DL even the DTs specifically played so horribly that they deserved to be benched wholesale. And that is regardless of where they were picked (or not picked) in their respective drafts

I'm not saying the DT's need to be replaced. The D was superb against the conventional run game but was unable to contain Newton on the edges. Credit to Newton's athleticism.

There's no one to replace them with at this point in the season. They're not Wilfolk and Kelly unfortunately and can't push the pocket, tie up two blockers, generate qb pressure or get sacks. Chris Jones had some moments in his first few games but can't get close to the qb when teams pay attention to him.

Jones and Vellano are playing to their potential IMO but in a best case scenario should be back ups or used to give your starting DT's a breather on occasions.

I'm not saying the DT's need to be replaced. The D was superb against the conventional run game but was unable to contain Newton on the edges. Credit to Newton's athleticism.

There's no one to replace them with at this point in the season. They're not Wilfolk and Kelly unfortunately and can't push the pocket, tie up two blockers, generate qb pressure or get sacks. Chris Jones had some moments in his first few games but can't get close to the qb when teams pay attention to him.

Jones and Vellano are playing to their potential IMO but in a best case scenario should be back ups or used to give your starting DT's a breather on occasions.

Oh no, mapat. That comment was not directed at you. That was a position I put out there in response to Wozzy on his original post. I just thought that replacing them would be an overreaction. It does not matter if you look at it from the perspective of run D or pass D.

Speaking to the basic point of the thread, I see no need to make changes at the DT position if those changes would be performance based. The data provided above amply supports an intereior defensive line that performed quite well against the run and I see no need to repeat it here.

Since when do DT's only get judged against the run?

How about allowing Newton the luxury of sitting in the pocket and feel no pressure all game. I would counter that our linebackers excel against the run, Spikes and Hightower are both "Ted" linebackers who play best at the line of scrimmage. The biggest fall off in performance has been evident watching the middle of the pass rush, if we dont rush more than four we get zero pressure.

I might add that the 2nd ranked defense early in the season and the one we saw on Monday the only huge difference was the missing defensive tackles.

Well, in fairness, we're missing our best LB too. And the secondary is not 100% either. Dennard and Gregory were both out and Talib and Arrington both were hampered by injury. Not saying that the loss of Wilfork and Kelly isn't important, but I wouldn't say it's the only difference from the early-season defense.

Moreover, there is no way of knowing that the changes that you are proposing will be an upgrade. I, for one, do not see them as that.

Talib and Arrington played, when Talib wasn't playing Dennard was, Mayo is the only significant loss... the reality is the DT's don't pass the eyeball test. Watch the last game if you have it recorded and strictly watch the middle of the D line, these guys get blown back at the snap of the ball or hit the wall when rushing with a single blocker removing them.

Both Kelly and Wilfork routinely demanded double teams... this can't be dismissed. We've been talking about whats wrong with the defense for about five years now, to start the season they dominate looking nothing like recent defenses, D tackles go down with injury and pass pressure up the middle disappears.

I love how we actually think two undrafted free agent DT's can replace two pro bowl caliber players and think there has been no drop off, even as the defensive stats drop dramatically. Defensive tackles in our system get zero credit, zero accolades, they are totally overlooked, it's always the linebackers and defensive backs "can't cover."

Football is won and lost in the trenches, you don't remove 700 pounds of All Pro mass in the middle and think that everything will be gravy. What we're seeing now is a domino effect that starts in the middle and is working it's way back. I'm not sure Francis and especially Siliga will help, but they have one thing that neither Vellano, Chris Jones or even Fortson have, pure mass.

I'd like to see Chris Jones out there, he has a non stop motor and seems to hold up better against the run but Vellano should be playing a back up role or in Canada.

Moreover, there is no way of knowing that the changes that you are proposing will be an upgrade. I, for one, do not see them as that.

Talib and Arrington played, when Talib wasn't playing Dennard was, Mayo is the only significant loss... the reality is the DT's don't pass the eyeball test. Watch the last game if you have it recorded and strictly watch the middle of the D line, these guys get blown back at the snap of the ball or hit the wall when rushing with a single blocker removing them.

Both Kelly and Wilfork routinely demanded double teams... this can't be dismissed. We've been talking about whats wrong with the defense for about five years now, to start the season they dominate looking nothing like recent defenses, D tackles go down with injury and pass pressure up the middle disappears.

I love how we actually think two undrafted free agent DT's can replace two pro bowl caliber players and think there has been no drop off, even as the defensive stats drop dramatically. Defensive tackles in our system get zero credit, zero accolades, they are totally overlooked, it's always the linebackers and defensive backs "can't cover."

Football is won and lost in the trenches, you don't remove 700 pounds of All Pro mass in the middle and think that everything will be gravy. What we're seeing now is a domino effect that starts in the middle and is working it's way back. I'm not sure Francis and especially Siliga will help, but they have one thing that neither Vellano, Chris Jones or even Fortson have, pure mass.

I'd like to see Chris Jones out there, he has a non stop motor and seems to hold up better against the run but Vellano should be playing a back up role or in Canada.

I did watch the game live, and also watched the reply tape 2 times. Where I was able to watch the DL play, Soap was not pushed back. He did not penetrate, but he was able to play both gaps well imo. I also did not see Jones pushed back, also holding his ground. He also did not penetrate, but held his ground.

I firmly believe the DT's part of the game plan was to stop the run. Play both gaps, and don't try to shoot one of the gaps to get to Cam leaving a gaping hole to run thru. I thought Jones and Soap did a good job of following that plan.

I have made my thoughts regarding Vellano well known on other posts. I appreciate his effort and what he has done for the team. He is a great 5th or 6th player in a DT rotation. He is not a starter. He s/b on some ones practice squad this year.

IMO, the proof is in the non Cam rushing yards...Carolina's run game was stymied for the most part IMO.

I thought Nink and Jones brought very good edge pressure. I thought if Cam was not the QB, Pats could have had 6-7 sacks.

Moreover, there is no way of knowing that the changes that you are proposing will be an upgrade. I, for one, do not see them as that.

Talib and Arrington played, when Talib wasn't playing Dennard was, Mayo is the only significant loss... the reality is the DT's don't pass the eyeball test. Watch the last game if you have it recorded and strictly watch the middle of the D line, these guys get blown back at the snap of the ball or hit the wall when rushing with a single blocker removing them.

Both Kelly and Wilfork routinely demanded double teams... this can't be dismissed. We've been talking about whats wrong with the defense for about five years now, to start the season they dominate looking nothing like recent defenses, D tackles go down with injury and pass pressure up the middle disappears.

I love how we actually think two undrafted free agent DT's can replace two pro bowl caliber players and think there has been no drop off, even as the defensive stats drop dramatically. Defensive tackles in our system get zero credit, zero accolades, they are totally overlooked, it's always the linebackers and defensive backs "can't cover."

Football is won and lost in the trenches, you don't remove 700 pounds of All Pro mass in the middle and think that everything will be gravy. What we're seeing now is a domino effect that starts in the middle and is working it's way back. I'm not sure Francis and especially Siliga will help, but they have one thing that neither Vellano, Chris Jones or even Fortson have, pure mass.

I'd like to see Chris Jones out there, he has a non stop motor and seems to hold up better against the run but Vellano should be playing a back up role or in Canada.

I did watch the game live, and also watched the reply tape 2 times. Where I was able to watch the DL play, Soap was not pushed back. He did not penetrate, but he was able to play both gaps well imo. I also did not see Jones pushed back, also holding his ground. He also did not penetrate, but held his ground.

I firmly believe the DT's part of the game plan was to stop the run. Play both gaps, and don't try to shoot one of the gaps to get to Cam leaving a gaping hole to run thru. I thought Jones and Soap did a good job of following that plan.

I have made my thoughts regarding Vellano well known on other posts. I appreciate his effort and what he has done for the team. He is a great 5th or 6th player in a DT rotation. He is not a starter. He s/b on some ones practice squad this year.

IMO, the proof is in the non Cam rushing yards...Carolina's run game was stymied for the most part IMO.

I thought Nink and Jones brought very good edge pressure. I thought if Cam was not the QB, Pats could have had 6-7 sacks.

I saw the same thing as Karp in this game and agree the game plan was to hold containment on newton, but the inside pocket did not collapse enough which allowed him time to throw. This, I think is Wozzys point, that with VW and Kelly in there Newton would have had to rush more throws or pull the ball down sooner and try to find an outlet against Nink and Jones who both had great games imo.

Moreover, there is no way of knowing that the changes that you are proposing will be an upgrade. I, for one, do not see them as that.

Talib and Arrington played, when Talib wasn't playing Dennard was, Mayo is the only significant loss... the reality is the DT's don't pass the eyeball test. Watch the last game if you have it recorded and strictly watch the middle of the D line, these guys get blown back at the snap of the ball or hit the wall when rushing with a single blocker removing them.

Both Kelly and Wilfork routinely demanded double teams... this can't be dismissed. We've been talking about whats wrong with the defense for about five years now, to start the season they dominate looking nothing like recent defenses, D tackles go down with injury and pass pressure up the middle disappears.

I love how we actually think two undrafted free agent DT's can replace two pro bowl caliber players and think there has been no drop off, even as the defensive stats drop dramatically. Defensive tackles in our system get zero credit, zero accolades, they are totally overlooked, it's always the linebackers and defensive backs "can't cover."

Football is won and lost in the trenches, you don't remove 700 pounds of All Pro mass in the middle and think that everything will be gravy. What we're seeing now is a domino effect that starts in the middle and is working it's way back. I'm not sure Francis and especially Siliga will help, but they have one thing that neither Vellano, Chris Jones or even Fortson have, pure mass.

I'd like to see Chris Jones out there, he has a non stop motor and seems to hold up better against the run but Vellano should be playing a back up role or in Canada.

I did watch the game live, and also watched the reply tape 2 times. Where I was able to watch the DL play, Soap was not pushed back. He did not penetrate, but he was able to play both gaps well imo. I also did not see Jones pushed back, also holding his ground. He also did not penetrate, but held his ground.

I firmly believe the DT's part of the game plan was to stop the run. Play both gaps, and don't try to shoot one of the gaps to get to Cam leaving a gaping hole to run thru. I thought Jones and Soap did a good job of following that plan.

I have made my thoughts regarding Vellano well known on other posts. I appreciate his effort and what he has done for the team. He is a great 5th or 6th player in a DT rotation. He is not a starter. He s/b on some ones practice squad this year.

IMO, the proof is in the non Cam rushing yards...Carolina's run game was stymied for the most part IMO.

I thought Nink and Jones brought very good edge pressure. I thought if Cam was not the QB, Pats could have had 6-7 sacks.

I saw the same thing as Karp in this game and agree the game plan was to hold containment on newton, but the inside pocket did not collapse enough which allowed him time to throw. This, I think is Wozzys point, that with VW and Kelly in there Newton would have had to rush more throws or pull the ball down sooner and try to find an outlet against Nink and Jones who both had great games imo.

once the DT's push the pocket they have given up 1 of the gaps, allowing the runner that gap. Spikes can only contain one gap, and Hightower is in pass coverage. Panthers get 160 plus yards on the ground, keeping the ball out of Bradys hands...

Where in any post I've contributed to this thread have I said that there wasn't a drop-off from VW and TK to the guys who are out there now? Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this the original post in the thread:

Bill bring AJ Francis or Sealver Silga up from the practice squad, whoever looks more ready to contribute or both. I'd like to think Francis has more upside, but one thing we can be sure of is that we need more beef in the middle of our front.

Send either Fortson or Vellano down for a game, what's the worst that could happen...

My responses have been geared specifically to the premise that bringing someone up from the practice squad would improve DT play. I don't see how or why it would and that's what I've posted.

Moreover, there is no way of knowing that the changes that you are proposing will be an upgrade. I, for one, do not see them as that.

Talib and Arrington played, when Talib wasn't playing Dennard was, Mayo is the only significant loss... the reality is the DT's don't pass the eyeball test. Watch the last game if you have it recorded and strictly watch the middle of the D line, these guys get blown back at the snap of the ball or hit the wall when rushing with a single blocker removing them.

Both Kelly and Wilfork routinely demanded double teams... this can't be dismissed. We've been talking about whats wrong with the defense for about five years now, to start the season they dominate looking nothing like recent defenses, D tackles go down with injury and pass pressure up the middle disappears.

I love how we actually think two undrafted free agent DT's can replace two pro bowl caliber players and think there has been no drop off, even as the defensive stats drop dramatically. Defensive tackles in our system get zero credit, zero accolades, they are totally overlooked, it's always the linebackers and defensive backs "can't cover."

Football is won and lost in the trenches, you don't remove 700 pounds of All Pro mass in the middle and think that everything will be gravy. What we're seeing now is a domino effect that starts in the middle and is working it's way back. I'm not sure Francis and especially Siliga will help, but they have one thing that neither Vellano, Chris Jones or even Fortson have, pure mass.

I'd like to see Chris Jones out there, he has a non stop motor and seems to hold up better against the run but Vellano should be playing a back up role or in Canada.

I did watch the game live, and also watched the reply tape 2 times. Where I was able to watch the DL play, Soap was not pushed back. He did not penetrate, but he was able to play both gaps well imo. I also did not see Jones pushed back, also holding his ground. He also did not penetrate, but held his ground.

I firmly believe the DT's part of the game plan was to stop the run. Play both gaps, and don't try to shoot one of the gaps to get to Cam leaving a gaping hole to run thru. I thought Jones and Soap did a good job of following that plan.

I have made my thoughts regarding Vellano well known on other posts. I appreciate his effort and what he has done for the team. He is a great 5th or 6th player in a DT rotation. He is not a starter. He s/b on some ones practice squad this year.

IMO, the proof is in the non Cam rushing yards...Carolina's run game was stymied for the most part IMO.

I thought Nink and Jones brought very good edge pressure. I thought if Cam was not the QB, Pats could have had 6-7 sacks.

I saw the same thing as Karp in this game and agree the game plan was to hold containment on newton, but the inside pocket did not collapse enough which allowed him time to throw. This, I think is Wozzys point, that with VW and Kelly in there Newton would have had to rush more throws or pull the ball down sooner and try to find an outlet against Nink and Jones who both had great games imo.

once the DT's push the pocket they have given up 1 of the gaps, allowing the runner that gap. Spikes can only contain one gap, and Hightower is in pass coverage. Panthers get 160 plus yards on the ground, keeping the ball out of Bradys hands...

That simply was not the game plan against the Panthers.

Well they only had 100 yards rushing, and surely the plan was not to let cam stand still until somebody got open, so I don't understand your point. A pocket can collapse while maintaining gap responsibility. Not to mention it wasn't cams 60 rushing yards that killed us, it was his 3 passing tds to 3 different receiving threats, and steve smith handing talib his hat.

Well they only had 100 yards rushing, and surely the plan was not to let cam stand still until somebody got open, so I don't understand your point. A pocket can collapse while maintaining gap responsibility. Not to mention it wasn't cams 60 rushing yards that killed us, it was his 3 passing tds to 3 different receiving threats, and steve smith handing talib his hat.

Agreed, this is my point entirely. Cam didn't beat us with his feet, he killed us with passing, he had all day to step up into the pocket, his guards weren't breaking a sweat, and just when we thought we had him on third and five or six he beat us with his feet.

Moreover this hasn't just been a Pather's problem, this has been since Kelly was finally ruled out, the Panthers just stood out because they have good linemen. You don't think playoff teams will be any different do you..?

I haven't seen anything where Armstead has been declared out for the year. He needed to be practicing by the 11th week or he could not play this year. Did I miss something or do the Pats not need to make an official announcement?