@ CES 2011 DTS demoed their new algorithm Neo.x which can output up to 11.1, taking a 2.0, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 digital audio stream. They can use Front Sides and/or Front Heights in certain combinations. They will have 3 modes, 1 for movies, 1 for music and 1 for games.

Their demo was incredible they played some tracks from their new Blu-Ray demo disk # 15. They played the U2 cut City of Building Lights from their Rose Bowl concert. Also for movies they played a cut from Robin Hood and The Twilight Saga: New Moon.

In talking to the DTS product manager, he mentioned AVRs with Neo.X should start to ship later this year in the Fall. Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.

@ CES 2011 DTS demoed their new algorithm Neo:x which can output up to 11.1, taking a 2.0, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 digital audio stream. They can use Front Sides and/or Front Heights in certain combinations. They will have 3 modes, 1 for movies, 1 for music and 1 for games.

"Honey, we're going to need a whole lot more of them speaker thingys!"

Do you know if DTS Neo.X can operate without a center channel speaker (unlike Audyssey DSX which requires a center)?

Funny you asked this question..

We just received a prototype processor with DTS Neo.X, the OSD menu allows the Center speaker to be turned OFF. I don't know if I can do this comparison before departing for the Orient tomorrow, I will try and post back...

Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.

I dont know if the mixdown requirements are similar to dolby M Code but apart from the obvious dsp algorithm being applied to 5.1/7.1 etc material this '' content encoded in neo x '' has me intrigued . Is it possible 11.1 remixed discrete soundtracks ;from the vast majority 5.1 mixes; is the aim ?

The paucity of 7.1 titles and studios attitudes to this remixing [cost?] doesnt engender a lot of hope .. Not that I wouldnt like to see such remixes A lot of fans of wide front speakers so fascinating to see developments

Keep in mind..
DTS has always had a tech trick up its sleeve, 5.1 remains the norm but in a mature, competitive industry a brand needs something to set it apart. As the later mid-to-higher class AVRs are introduced and nclude higher resourced audio DSPs they have the capability of additional post-processing modes including DTS Neo.X or even SRS virtualizing for multi-zones. The brand can include these additional modes especially along with DTS MA which is the standard for BD. They put relatively minor technical burdens on the brand if they just include the 9.1 and 11.1 pre-outs and the user adds his own external amplifiers since it is just software.. Additionally since DTS already has a competitive single royalty cost for the DTS SD and DTS HD algorithm, they would likely make it a package..

Probably a stupid question but can newer receivers such as the Denon 4311 be able to download the newer decoding formats? I only ask because I am buying a new AVR this summer and if Neo X can't be downloaded, I think I'll just wait till the new model comes out.

Probably a stupid question but can newer receivers such as the Denon 4311 be able to download the newer decoding formats? I only ask because I am buying a new AVR this summer and if Neo X can't be downloaded, I think I'll just wait till the new model comes out.

I would imagine it is doubtful that it can be added via a firmware update.

Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.

What does your above claim about studios matrix encoding content in Neo:X in order to jump start lagging Blu-ray sales have to do with blind upmixing in receivers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code

DTS has always had a tech trick up its sleeve, 5.1 remains the norm but in a mature, competitive industry a brand needs something to set it apart. As the later mid-to-higher class AVRs are introduced and nclude higher resourced audio DSPs they have the capability of additional post-processing modes including DTS Neo.X or even SRS virtualizing for multi-zones. The brand can include these additional modes especially along with DTS MA which is the standard for BD. They put relatively minor technical burdens on the brand if they just include the 9.1 and 11.1 pre-outs and the user adds his own external amplifiers since it is just software.. Additionally since DTS already has a competitive single royalty cost for the DTS SD and DTS HD algorithm, they would likely make it a package..

Receivers already exist with 11.2 pre-outs (e.g., Denon 4311). What would Neo:X bring to the party, except a different flavour of upmixing?

What does your above claim about studios matrix encoding content in Neo:X in order to jump start lagging Blu-ray sales have to do with blind upmixing in receivers? Receivers already exist with 11.2 pre-outs (e.g., Denon 4311). What would Neo:X bring to the party, except a different flavour of upmixing?

Actually, it's not clear that encoded DTS-HDMA 11.1 content would be matrixed. Remember that the 'architecture' of the DTS bitstream allowed DTS to insert a discrete Center Surround into the DTS DVD encodes . . . which retained backward compatibility with both DTS5.1 and DTS6.1-ES(Matrix) 'earlier generation' decoders. There's no obvious reason DTS cannot include [the components for] alternative 7.1 and 11.1 discrete channel mixes into the DTS-HDMA bitstream, with the 11.1 mix only accessible from a ('next generation', Neo:X) DTS-HDMA 11.1 compliant decoder.

[Home Office system schematic]"My AV systems were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many speakers. And they have . . . A PLAN."

Receivers already exist with 11.2 pre-outs (e.g., Denon 4311). What would Neo:X bring to the party, except a different flavour of upmixing?

A DTS version probably has a lot more chance than Audyssey DSX of being picked up by most or all manufacturers, and since DTS encoders are already used on most BDs there's a good chance of seeing 11.2 content encoded (matrixed or otherwise) on new disks, which would never happen with the current Audyssey solution.

What I wonder is whether some manufacturers currently using Audyssey DSX will drop it in favour of the DTS solution (why pay two sets of license fees?).

What does your above claim about studios matrix encoding content in Neo:X in order to jump start lagging Blu-ray sales have to do with blind upmixing in receivers?

Software content drives hardware sales..
If the studios start mastering and releasing material encoded with Neo.X either in 7.1, 9.1 or even 11.1 this will raise the demand for Neo.X decoders. The market expects content..
A good example is the hype for 3-D, all of the new HDMI 1.4 flat panel displays have this capability but without supporting content the sizzle fades away..

Quote:

Receivers already exist with 11.2 pre-outs (e.g., Denon 4311). What would Neo:X bring to the party, except a different flavour of upmixing?

As previously mentioned the audio DSP resource requirements (MIPs & memory) for DTS Neo.X are minimal so a mid-to-high AVR will be able to process this easily.. If they already have enough pre-out channels then it is actually easier to implement as the case for certain Denon models.

The promise of DTS Neo.X is simply another multi-channel post-processing mode which to my ears sounds excellant. To me this is similar to the case of Lexicon and HK in their products which offer Logic 7 modes of 5.1 or 7.1 soundstages even from HD streams.
If the listener thinks they sound better than use it if not turn it off.
All related to marketing mix..

Probably a stupid question but can newer receivers such as the Denon 4311 be able to download the newer decoding formats? I only ask because I am buying a new AVR this summer and if Neo X can't be downloaded, I think I'll just wait till the new model comes out.

Good question..
Yes it is feasible as long as the subject AVR model such as Denon has enough DSP resources available..

Actually, it's not clear that encoded DTS-HDMA 11.1 content would be matrixed. Remember that the 'architecture' of the DTS bitstream allowed DTS to insert a discrete Center Surround into the DTS DVD encodes . . . which retained backward compatibility with both DTS5.1 and DTS6.1-ES(Matrix) 'earlier generation' decoders. There's no obvious reason DTS cannot include [the components for] alternative 7.1 and 11.1 discrete channel mixes into the DTS-HDMA bitstream, with the 11.1 mix only accessible from a ('next generation', Neo:X) DTS-HDMA 11.1 compliant decoder.

The exact method DTS used for Discrete 6.1 ES already exists in the BD spec for HDMA and TrueHD. Several flavors of 7.1 can be carried, not just the one we see in BD discs thus far with 4 surrounds. For example, a 5.1 plus a pair of heights, or wides (of a few flavors) can be handled. And those channels can be further matrix encoded so, for example, the Lh/Rh speakers could carry 3/4/5 overhead signals while the Ls/Rs carries 4 surrounds, thus yielding a total of 12.1 "channels" in a fully compatible way. In addition, BD can carry several additional discrete channels using TrueHD (maybe HDMA, too) by adding additional substreams. It, too, would be perfectly compatible with existing BD players, since that was already defined at the time of the initial BD spec.

Cool, so why don't we see 12.1 "real" content? No one is mixing like that, and if they did, no decoders would understand it. Classic "chicken and egg" problem.

As for Neo:X, like any matrix technology, it is a means to deliver additional channels when discrete pipes are not available, such as the 12.1 -->7.1 case described above. Neo:X encoding, per JJ's interview with Scott Wilkinson, is a form of downmixing with specific embedded cues to help the decoder find and recover the channels. This most resembles what Neural poetically called "watermarking." In that sense, even though the details differ, it is conceptually like other matrix techniques.

Software content drives hardware sales..
If the studios start mastering and releasing material encoded with Neo.X either in 7.1, 9.1 or even 11.1 this will raise the demand for Neo.X decoders. The market expects content..

7.1 is available as discrete from BD or even DD+. The paucity of 7.1 titles does not look too encouraging for 9.1 and 11.1 mixes, particularly since no theaters or home gear know how to decode those.

Quote:

The promise of DTS Neo.X is simply another multi-channel post-processing mode which to my ears sounds excellant. To me this is similar to the case of Lexicon and HK in their products which offer Logic 7 modes of 5.1 or 7.1 soundstages even from HD streams.
If the listener thinks they sound better than use it if not turn it off.
All related to marketing mix..

If blind upmixing is what you want, yes indeed I'd expect Neo:X to do that nicely, much better than Neural now that JJ & Jot are on the case.

But that does nothing to drive sales of BD, since upmixing works with any existing content. Logic7 and PLIIx do nothing to drive sales of content of any kind. It will take a lot more than the presence of a new decoder in a small proportion of AVRs to jumpstart the market for BD.

7.1 is available as discrete from BD or even DD+. The paucity of 7.1 titles does not look too encouraging for 9.1 and 11.1 mixes, particularly since no theaters or home gear know how to decode those.

If blind upmixing is what you want, yes indeed I'd expect Neo:X to do that nicely, much better than Neural now that JJ & Jot are on the case.

But that does nothing to drive sales of BD, since upmixing works with any existing content. Logic7 and PLIIx do nothing to drive sales of content of any kind. It will take a lot more than the presence of a new decoder in a small proportion of AVRs to jumpstart the market for BD.

Keep in mind that the home theater category is mature and really not increasing, so that there is not significant push for expansion from a marketing viewpoint..
The product category of AVRs is stagnant and its total $ are actually shrinking as result of the AVR market share shootout between Yamaha, Denon, Sony and Onkyo driving the average AVR's price-points downward..

The last marketing data for AVRs I saw some months back showed a 31% decrease in the median pricing for the AVR's retail price comparing 2009 vs. 2010. The qtys are climbing slightly but total $ are dropping as the average AVR's prices decline. Part of this can be explained by the weak global economy but more largely it is dependent upon the home theater category of loosing its momentum and sizzle of more exciting products for the consumer to purchase such as iPad, smart phones & on-line games..

Also one can see the shift of the primary emphasis of DTS, Dolby and even Harman are addressing the automotive, internet and personal electronic product categories for their future revenue growth...

Regarding the weakness of the BD market this is driven by the likes of Netflix and other download services.. Why buy when you can download the movie via the internet rather than purchase it.. Also Blockbuster has been destroyed along the way..

Consumer 7.1 hardware came out 20 years before any 7.1 software was released on BD. Plenty of people already had 5.1 speaker layouts years before there was any 5.1 material.

Quote:

The promise of DTS Neo.X is simply another multi-channel post-processing mode which to my ears sounds excellant.

So receivers can already do 11.1, but you think this particular flavour of 11.1 matrix upmixing will jump start lagging BD sales? And you believe Neo:X will do this because it "sounds excellant" to your ears?

I don't see the connection between the various claims you're making. Studios aren't compelled to mix beyond 5.1, that has nothing to do with greater BD sales, neither of which have anything to do with post-processing in receivers. They unrelated. Neo:6 going to change all that?

Consumer 7.1 hardware came out 20 years before any 7.1 software was released on BD. Plenty of people already had 5.1 speaker layouts years before there was any 5.1 material. So receivers can already do 11.1, but you think this particular flavour of 11.1 matrix upmixing will jump start lagging BD sales? And you believe Neo:X will do this because it "sounds excellant" to your ears?

As I have posted previously..
Go out and listen to a demo yourself then decide if it meets your expectations.. Don't rely upon a random comment made in an internet thread.

Quote:

I don't see the connection between the various claims you're making. Studios aren't compelled to mix beyond 5.1, that has nothing to do with greater BD sales, neither of which have anything to do with post-processing in receivers. They unrelated. Neo:6 going to change all that?

If the studios don't release enough content in 7.1 or even 9.1 or 11.1..
No real biggee...
Thats where the matrix post-processing modes fills the bill. This is exactly what demand Pro Logic 2X, Logic 7 and Neo 6 contribute in a 7.1 AVR which make up 85% of the market. It is pertinent to note that though the majority of the AVRs sold today are 7.1 capable but whereas the L/R back surround channel amplifiers are used more frequently for Zone II audio than 7.1 surround...

Keep in mind that the home theater category is mature and really not increasing, so that there is not significant push for expansion from a marketing viewpoint..
The product category of AVRs is stagnant and its total $ are actually shrinking as result of the AVR market share shootout between Yamaha, Denon, Sony and Onkyo driving the average AVR's price-points downward..

The last marketing data for AVRs I saw some months back showed a 31% decrease in the median pricing for the AVR's retail price comparing 2009 vs. 2010. The qtys are climbing slightly but total $ are dropping as the average AVR's prices decline. Part of this can be explained by the weak global economy but more largely it is dependent upon the home theater category of loosing its momentum and sizzle of more exciting products for the consumer to purchase such as iPad, smart phones & on-line games..

Also one can see the shift of the primary emphasis of DTS, Dolby and even Harman are addressing the automotive, internet and personal electronic product categories for their future revenue growth...

Regarding the weakness of the BD market this is driven by the likes of Netflix and other download services.. Why buy when you can download the movie via the internet rather than purchase it.. Also Blockbuster has been destroyed along the way..

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code

If the studios don't release enough content in 7.1 or even 9.1 or 11.1..
No real biggee...
Thats where the matrix post-processing modes fills the bill. This is exactly what demand Pro Logic 2X, Logic 7 and Neo 6 contribute in a 7.1 AVR which make up 85% of the market. It is pertinent to note that though the majority of the AVRs sold today are 7.1 capable but whereas the L/R back surround channel amplifiers are used more frequently for Zone II audio than 7.1 surround...

Ok. Based on all the the above, I'm still trying to figure out where that leaves your original assertion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code

In talking to the DTS product manager, he mentioned AVRs with Neo.X should start to ship later this year in the Fall. Also it is likely that some studios will start providing content encloded in Neo.X as to date Blu-Ray sales have been lagging behind expectations. And this could jump start their demand.

Looks like a non-starter even based your on own perspective, and on that I fully agree.

Go out and listen to a demo yourself then decide if it meets your expectations..

I have, as well as their previous 11.1 iterations (which used 2 heights and 6 surrounds, no wides).

Quote:

If the studios don't release enough content in 7.1 or even 9.1 or 11.1..
No real biggee...
Thats where the matrix post-processing modes fills the bill.

That's nothing new: surround processing has traditionally been used to scale the number of source channels to the number of playback speakers. So it doesn't really matter if studios go beyond 5.1 mixes.

But what does any of that have to do with your earlier claim about studios using Neo:X encoded content to jumpstart lagging BD sales? Besides, what would they encode? (Don't tell me there's an 11.1-channel mix of 'The Haunting' that's been sitting on the shelf all these years, just waiting for DTS to come up with the delivery/playback technology.)

It never ceases to amaze me how DTS's technologies somehow manage to gain magical properties. A few years ago, folks were convinced that DTS-HD MA sounded better than the uncompressed PCM it was sourced from. And now matrix processing that will boost BD sales. They make the marketing department at Bose look like rank amatuers by comparison.

Off topic, but if they want to increase Blu-ray sales, get rid of Java.
Making Blu-ray players slower AND dumber
(ex. can't return to where you watching a movie, after a stop/power cycle)
than DVD is just plain stupid.