Post by Lord Mercat on Jul 1, 2014 9:18:36 GMT -8

Alright, I'm going to jump in and say that, while I agree with AK Brickster on the "coming with unique names" issue for the most part, I don't see anything wrong with having a "Praetorian Guard". Taking the analogy given by AK Brickster to start with, lets look at the differences here. Ringwraiths are a completely unique fantasy group created by Tolkien for his own use in the fantasy universe he created. Naming an outlaw band "Ringwraiths" would be un-intuitive, non-creative, and blatant plagiarism. However, the analogy does not work. The "Praetorian Guard" are not some fantasy group created for a video game, or a series of novels, and cannot be compared to "Ringwraiths" in any way. The Praetorian Guard were an actual historal group of bodyguards that served under many roman emperors. The name itself has other meanings, and the term "Praetorian" is actually defined as a rank. It would roughly translate today as something along the lines of "Magistrates Guard" or "Judges Guard" or even "Officers Guard". Calling something the Praetorian Guard is no different from calling something "Templars" like, off the top of my head "The Templars of the Crimson Moon" or something along those lines (which there are quite a lot of in various fictions, "Templar" has come to mean more of a type of knight or order rather than one specific thing). "Praetorian Guard" is not some highly specified, unique fantasy name with only a single possible image, while it has historical basis, it is in the public domain and is a fantastic name to use. The meaning of, background, history, culture, etc all fit Loreos quite well. I think it's a great choice, and I find that it has a lot more meaning to it than a random name without any real meaning created by a name generator.

So, while I heartily disagree with most MattiusXavier's Loreesi bunk, on the issue of the Praetorian Guard's name, I have to stand by his choice because it is a good one.

Post by josdu on Jul 1, 2014 10:35:33 GMT -8

Lord Mercat, if you're right then to call a them a special force is like calling (like you said) Judges Guard a specially trained force. Of course they might have some training other soldiers don't have, but since every faction should have body guards or whatever it would hardly be special or super trained. Like you said "Praetorian Guard" has no definite image that comes to mind, therefore it is no more special than, say, the emperor's body guard.

Post by Lord Mercat on Jul 1, 2014 11:26:34 GMT -8

Lord Mercat, if you're right then to call a them a special force is like calling (like you said) Judges Guard a specially trained force. Of course they might have some training other soldiers don't have, but since every faction should have body guards or whatever it would hardly be special or super trained. Like you said "Praetorian Guard" has no definite image that comes to mind, therefore it is no more special than, say, the emperor's body guard.

They basically ARE the Emperor's Body Guard. They serve as Prince Whatshisnames personal guard. I was merely stating that the name isn't as unoriginal and copied as some people are claiming it to be. And what's wrong with calling a specialized force Judges Guard? You could call a specialized force "Dark Ranger Snipers" if you wanted, or for a real life example the "Secret Service". I mean, look at Star Wars, Emporer Palpatine's personal guards are called what? Imperial Guard. Which is a name used for a LOT of different fantasy/sci-fi guards of varying fictional universes. "Praetorian Guard" is similar. Also, allow me to clarify the "definitive image" deal. What I meant when I said that is that if you take, for example, Ringwraiths- what comes to mind is well, Ringwraiths, most people know exactly what they are and would be hard pressed to think of them as something else. However when you think of, say "Templars" while that evokes the image of knights, with a bit of fervent zeal and various oaths, the general concept is more malleable. IE- I can have various groups of "Templar" as it has a broader meaning. The same ideas extend to the Praetorian Guard. Hope this clarifies what I said earlier.

Post by mattiusxavier on Jul 2, 2014 4:23:20 GMT -8

Lord Mercat makes some very interesting points (asides from the Loreos bunk part - LOL). Praetorian Guard is actually used in several fantasy series as well to describe a Regal Guard who protect a leader, just like Imperial Guard. It wouldn't be the first time this generic rank is applied. What makes it more unique is when you add a different name to the full title... such as Solarian Praetorian, etc. In many ways its just a rank applied to a position and wouldn't be any different than someone stating "Knights of the Dark Moon", "Archers of Silverbow", "The Crimson Brigade", "The Nurple Purple Templar Order of Squantmo" or "The Verts in Underpants of Lenfald" and the "Shaggy Waggy's of Garheim"...now those fellows have real beards.

Post by BrickMadness on Jul 2, 2014 6:56:00 GMT -8

I think there are some good points here. My opinion on using stuff from works of fiction, is that we should try to create our own names for things. I think though, that we shouldn't worry about what is sounds like. We have our characters in a fantasy world, much different from our own. It would make sense that the names of our city's, our people would be different sounding. As far as Ring Wraiths, you might not want to use someone else's ideal especially when its been copyrighted by several federal Governments, but something like that wouldn't be that bad like for example. Night Wraiths. Not much different but, still enough to the point of where I wouldn't be upset or offended at somebody, and believe me I am a huge Tolkien fan and, if somebody was plagiarizing it, it would make me mad! My point is though that if you read a book or, watch a movie and, there is a very cool name you want to use, Its so easy just to change the name up enough to make it your own idea.

Post by mattiusxavier on Jul 2, 2014 8:35:19 GMT -8

Well...to be honest anyone can use the term "Wraith" as its a common term originating from Scottish Gaelic for Ghost. Which brings us back to the common terms that are being used like "Knight, Templar, Praetorian, Lord, Captain, Soldier, Guard, Grunt, Master, Wizard, Witch, Warlock, Werewolf, Archer, Ranger, Monk, Priest, Prince, Baron, Duke, King, etc".

For me Wraith is a common term and I wouldn't have any problems with the Outlaws using that term to describe a group like 'Kerain's Wraiths' for example. All this would imply is that they are Ghosts or spectral entities that serve Kerain. Hence it would be acceptable and like the other common terms could be mixed with a variety of fantasy thought out terms, names or other methods of description.

Post by Lord Mercat on Jul 2, 2014 12:27:47 GMT -8

I do agree: 'Praetorian' is a word from our world. Of course, it's up to you, but I never like using names from our own languages/history in fantasy stories.

Really? Because you DO use names from your own languages/history in your fantasy stories. Everyone does. Think about it- every single concept in LoR is has a basis in either existing fantasy worlds, or in reality. For example, Lenfald is based on Medieval England/Western Europe. Going further, as MattiusXavier pointed out- Knights, Lords, Dukes, Barons, Kings, Fiefdoms, peasants, castles, etc-ALL of these are terms and concepts that are not just based on our own languages/history, but that are literally copy-pasted into most medieval fantasy worlds. These concepts form the basis of most fantasy. All fantasy is based in some way, on reality. People write and create based on their own views and experiences and tastes. All of us live in the world, and it is a great influence on every one of us and that will and does come across in writing/creating. So what is the big difference here? That "Praetorian" is a Latin/Roman rank instead of a European one? So? Loreos is based on Middle Eastern/Roman medival Europe so whats the issue? Praetorian Guard might be a bit out of place in Lenfald, but its perfect for Loreos.

And going even further, we all draw from fantasy as well as reality-for example, LoR has elves, dwarves, and orcs. Yet these are all unique creations of Tolkien. No one questions the use of the "basic fantasy races", yet their use is not original in any way. Must we then abolish these? All fantasy is in some way derivative, if not from other fantasy, then from reality. It all comes back to things that actually occurred at some point. Those things might have been exaggerated, but they are still steeped in the "real world" no matter how you look at it.

I mean, what do you call the King's Personal Guard? Royal Guard? Kingsguard? Etc. All been used before. But it doesn't matter because it isn't a unique and special name, and it doesn't have to be. We use those terms because they are recognizable, because they have a basis in history and because the name is effectiveand finally,because it is also a literal definition of what their job actually is. IE- the "Royal Guard" guards royalty- it makes sense.Do we all of a sudden need to come up with a new title for a blacksmith, or a carpenter just because those jobs exist in the real world?

Post by josdu on Jul 2, 2014 13:26:15 GMT -8

OK, despite all the hassle, us Outlaws are still (that would be most of us) the most magnificent, most awesome, most special and in general the BEST faction (if you wan't to call it one) NO questions asked! So get back on topic!

Post by Erathor Pridenar on Jul 2, 2014 22:29:08 GMT -8

Basically, I'm fine with the concept of a Praetorian Guard. That's cool, and I'd be perfectly happy to call it the 'Royal Guard', etc.. However, the word Praetorian itself refers to a real part of an ancient culture, and comes from the language of that culture. There is nothing wrong with taking elements and ideas from our world and putting them into fantasy - that's happened in every fantasy story ever - but I don't think that we should take things directly from our world's cultures. The ideas may be generally the same, but it makes sense to name things differently else the original name wouldn't really make sense in the context of the fantasy land.

Post by mattiusxavier on Jul 3, 2014 4:01:03 GMT -8

Basically, I'm fine with the concept of a Praetorian Guard. That's cool, and I'd be perfectly happy to call it the 'Royal Guard', etc.. However, the word Praetorian itself refers to a real part of an ancient culture, and comes from the language of that culture. There is nothing wrong with taking elements and ideas from our world and putting them into fantasy - that's happened in every fantasy story ever - but I don't think that we should take things directly from our world's cultures. The ideas may be generally the same, but it makes sense to name things differently else the original name wouldn't really make sense in the context of the fantasy land.

That may not have made too much sense, either!

I have to agree with Lord Mercat on the use of Praetorian yet again. The fact is that most of our linguistic and naming comes from various cultures...however most of the words we use are highly influenced if not originally Latin words we have modified. His point about no matter what you d,o you will be using a word or be copying over something from the real or another fantasy world is quite true. The point of the matter now is that really when it comes to naming, as long as you don't just take a straight reference like "Ringwraiths" or to be accurate "Nazgul" for naming you are fine to use a word that could be common to a rank or position.

@lord MercatFurther the invention of dwarves, elves, orcs, etc are not unique to Tolkien. Tolkien's works of fiction are actually based on using myths and stories from various cultures and mostly were conceived as an attempt to create Anglo-Saxon type myths. Dwarves, elves, orcs, etc have been commonly spoken about in Celtic myths, Norse, Germanic, and other cultures myths much like Dragon's, powerful spirits (wraiths), undead spirits like the undead army...even the Balrog, Sauron, Morgoth or Shelob and Ungoliant have place from myth...much like the Valar (who are similar to the Greco/Roman God's). There is even mention of trees like Yggdrasil in his Similarion. However...the linguistics used in Tolkien's works through a combination of other languages could easily be stated as unique and his names applied like Nazgul, Noldor, Numinorian, etc are fairly unique in many ways.

Post by Erathor Pridenar on Jul 3, 2014 5:31:55 GMT -8

I understand what you're saying, Matt and Mercat, and we do use words based in Latin each day. However, those words have become part of our English language used to tell the stories, and are not often such specific nouns as 'Praetorian', which refers to a certain part of a Latin culture. That isn't part of our language, and in my opinion it's almost like using 'Ringwraith' in a story.

Post by Lord Mercat on Jul 3, 2014 6:52:38 GMT -8

I understand what you're saying, Matt and Mercat, and we do use words based in Latin each day. However, those words have become part of our English language used to tell the stories, and are not often such specific nouns as 'Praetorian', which refers to a certain part of a Latin culture. That isn't part of our language, and in my opinion it's almost like using 'Ringwraith' in a story.

Praetorian is a part of our language though. It refers to many things in Latin culture, not just a single "certain part". Entire prefectures were referred to as "Praetorian" (it was used to refer to the highest levels of administrative branches back in Rome as well). In this sense using "Preaetorian" is about the same as calling something "Executive" in todays terms. Also, Praetorian is the name of a newspaper in California, a recently demolished historic building in Texas, a video game, etc. Just because you don't come across its use all the time every day, doesn't mean it isn't a part of our language. It exists in many works of both nonfiction and fiction, and does come up in conversation (rarely, but it does happen). Furthermore, Latin is one of those languages from which most languages spoken today derive in some way from. Its kind of like everybody's great grandpa in that regard. Would you then say that your great grandfather isn't/wasn't a part of your family? Because that's basically what you're saying when you say "that isn't a part of our language". Also, "Praetorian" is an adjective, not a noun.

Anyhow, while I understand where you're coming from, (I apologize if anything came across as "harsh" so to speak, things tend to read differently to different people-so no malice or anything intended, just wanted to be clear on that) I just disagree. While everyone is welcome to their own opinions, I would rather not see MattisuXavier's name for Lord Rashpants' guard to be tossed out for such reasons.

I probably used misleading terminology, rather than "unique creation" I perhaps should have said "Unique conception and use"- Tolkien's concept, use, and characterization of the basic fantasy races- their culture, characteristics, etc, are his own creation, and form the basis of pretty much all of their uses today (basically the way he put all the pieces together, you could say he took a bunch of jigsaw pieces from different puzzles, and created something unique and new). The actual "creation" bit falls back to what I stated earlier about all fantasy having a basis in reality, or in this case myths, which are based in part on real events/things. For example when you see dwarves, most if not all the time they are extremely clannish, short, always bearded, are excellent smiths, have a great love of gold and all things that glitter, and live in rocky/stony environments. These are inspired by Tolkien's take on dwarves- even when you see dwarves that are the exact opposite, it's almost never because of a unique concept of "dwarves" but rather a deliberate choice to make the dwarves unlike Tolkien, which is still, very much inspired by Tolkien. He's so prevalent that we actually have people creating fantasy works that is a complete deconstruction of Tolkien's concepts, specifically to avoid being too similar to Tolkiens works- that doesn't change the fact however, that they are still inspired by it. In fact, Tolkien's versions of these races has become so ingrained in modern culture that most people don't even consider it plagiarism- rather than a unique idea, he has actually been one of the few to redefine fantasy and create an entire set of unique concepts that have influenced the genre more than perhaps any other work in recent history.