I will never understand why people prefered to have to: feed pets with shit, buy vials and poison mats, buy arrows, buy runestones for portals, symbols for paladin buffs and all that crap. I hated all of that stuff. Maybe the raids were more fun back then but these minor inconviniences really bothered me always and I don't miss them. Also mounts @ lvl 40&60 was total bullshit, 20&40 is much better for leveling.
Does anyone remember how boring leveling lockpicking was? Because I do. This brings me to weapon skills, when you got a new bow and you used a gun before all your attacks miss because of your skill being level 1 instead of 200 :/

On topic, not casuals ruined the game but blizzard that wanted more income by making the game attractive, faster, convinient and less time consuming.

So yeah, Blizzard made decisions that are ruining the game based around casual players is what you're saying. This is why devs should not pay attention to forums ever. People will complain no matter what. If you listen to them, you're done.

Normal mode is already way too difficult. The gap between LFR and normal mode is ten times bigger than the gap between normal and heroic which is major problem, and why so few of LFR players ever move on to the next level.

I'd say 'why bother' is a bigger factor in not moving on than 'it's too hard'. There's a steady drop in first-boss attempts across raid tiers since LFR's introduction, and I find it difficult to believe that folks are hesitant to give it a shot because they heard how tough it may or may not be. It's far more likely that they simply don't see a need to bother with it.

Beautiful veins and bloodshot eyes.
"If you are not capable of cruelty, you are absolutely a victim to anyone who is" - J. Peterson

So, you think someone asking Blizzard to do something that would be contrary to their business interests, and someone asking Blizzard to do otherwise, are equivalent?

Casuals are in the enviable position that their interests, and Blizzards, are in closer alignment than are the interests of the entitled elitists. So the casuals don't have to make a self-serving argument; they can get the same effect with a principled one.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
"Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." -- Samuel Johnson

So, you think someone asking Blizzard to do something that would be contrary to their business interests, and someone asking Blizzard to do otherwise, are equivalent?

Casuals are in the enviable position that their interests, and Blizzards, are in closer alignment than are the interests of the entitled elitists. So the casuals don't have to make a self-serving argument; they can get the same effect with a principled one.

They're making just as entitled an argument as any other group of players might be (lets pretend for a moment that the playerbase is so easily fragmented into player types). The humorous tidbit here is that a) most casual-centric requests would serve to decrease sub stability (by effectively making content consumable at a faster rate), and b) Blizzard has been listening and making efforts towards said casual playerbase, and it's still not working out in their business interests.

Beautiful veins and bloodshot eyes.
"If you are not capable of cruelty, you are absolutely a victim to anyone who is" - J. Peterson

They're making just as entitled an argument as any other group of players might be (lets pretend for a moment that the playerbase is so easily fragmented into player types). The humorous tidbit here is that a) most casual-centric requests would serve to decrease sub stability (by effectively making content consumable at a faster rate), and b) Blizzard has been listening and making efforts towards said casual playerbase, and it's still not working out in their business interests.

Where are all these supposed demands by casuals? Blizzard has reacted to people leaving the game not to people demanding the game be changed on the forums.

I'd say 'why bother' is a bigger factor in not moving on than 'it's too hard'.

You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true. Multiple blue posts have said normal mode raids are too hard. It might not be the main reason or the only reason why people aren't moving up from LFR, but I know for a fact that it is the limiting factor for few extremely casual "friends and family" type of guilds I have some contact with.

They would want to do normal modes and maybe even try heroic, but it's just not possible in MoP for a guild that cleared normal mode 10man Dragon Soul regardless of LFR and had few decent tries on heroic bosses there. Horridon and Council of Elders was just too much, and prevented enjoying raiding in this tier..

Originally Posted by Pann

Where are all these supposed demands by casuals?

Nowhere. It's just a bullshit myth made up by the special snowflakes. Only demands from so-called casual players that I have ever seen in this or the official forums are from obvious trolls.

Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
Trolling should be.

Nowhere. It's just a bullshit myth made up by the special snowflakes. Only demands from so-called casual players that I have ever seen in this or the official forums are from obvious trolls.

I don't know if you can say the casual complaints didn't exist, they created a lot of problems like LFR, LFD (guys that were just bad at PvE were automatically given a group without ever having to learn their class, ninja's could roll on whatever they wanted), and casual isn't the right word here, but you know what I mean lol. Now the game is all about queue's and teaming up with random strangers you'll never see again, was actually fun and felt like you were doing something interested when you had to make a trip there, when people wouldn't roll on your gear for the sake of pissing you off (when they don't need the item lol).... made you feel like you were actually doing a dungeon.

This probably already been said, but casuals themselves did nothing but help the game expand. Blizzard themselves put too much emphasis on the casual content (not saying this stuff should go away) and a lot of hardcore players moved on from the game + no new ones taking their place because of multiple reasons, but one being that the content isn't challenging enough. A lot of gamers that haven't played wow look at it as a casual game b/c there isn't enough emphasis on difficult content.

Proof: players have to create their own competitions to make the game more interesting/challenging. ie world firsts, region first, guild vs guild raid races. If the content was hard enough even best wouldn't clear it in 2 weeks every tier

I don't know if you can say the casual complaints didn't exist, they created a lot of problems like LFR, LFD (guys that were just bad at PvE were automatically given a group without ever having to learn their class, ninja's could roll on whatever they wanted),

Not talking about valid concerns that cover all players, but the supposed "gimme loot for free" or "epics should be mailed to me for no effort at the start of month" types of complaints. Those never existed.

Your other examples like people ninjaing in LFD/LFR was a problem for everybody, even to the hardcore players trying to level up their alts.

Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
Trolling should be.

You don't know that she didn't, and it doesn't matter what she said, her parents are "RESPONSIBLE" for her, and as "RESPONSIBLE" parents they protected their child, fuck the little boy or your feelings.

So Grogo, who is more entitled? The casual who is asking Blizzard to cater to a majority customer demographic, or a hardcore who is asking Blizzard to design the game around a minority hardcore demographic?

Obviously, the latter is the one showing "entitlement". The casual is just asking Blizzard to act in their own best interest.

It's kind of odd you can't see this, but, as you say, the entitled are so annoyingly clueless.

Well Osmeric, you gotta admit though regardless if WoW was a new MMO & less Hardcore than Ultima / EQ. Making things more difficult & having people put in more work into it they will mostly stay longer & they will not leave as fast as they do now a days.

Bad players make the game worse by suggesting their bad ideas, not casuals. Casuals are just players who don't invest that much time in a game. You don't need to invest alot of time in game like WoW to experience it all. I know plenty of casuals who have done 13/13 HC ToT. But then there are good and bad casuals of course.

Well Osmeric, you gotta admit though regardless if WoW was a new MMO & less Hardcore than Ultima / EQ. Making things more difficult & having people put in more work it will stay longer & they will not leave as fast as they do now a days.

You know that works the opposite way around too right? If you make it hard the people that have only a few hours a day to do thing will quit because they can't get anything done.

or

You can also keep people who play one to two hours a day longer without having to offer constant content update because it will take them longer to complete.

Do you really think Hardcore players take one month to beat a Raid? No if you are in a hardcore guild you will be done in less than a month, just think about it this way, n WoTLK everyone complain about having a whole year of ICC, but the people that played were people that played casually, hardcore gamers had already fully clear ICC by haft way, and some left the game till CATA, blizzard was sitting around collecting cash from the people that haven't completed the raid.

Define casuals, define ruin and define WoW, through your own experience, which will bring a new set of questions.

Casuals- no doubt have changed the game and how it is played. However I would argue that even the most elitist of theory-crafters still enjoys exploiting the path of least resistance. Does getting more for less actually harm the overall quality of the game and experience? This relates to 'ruin.'

Ruin- do the changes we see in the game-play somehow break our traditional views of how the game should be played? Or similarly, just to coin the term, does "casual style" of game-play degrade the experience and fun of the game, for both others and themselves? This relates to the game as a whole.

WoW- what elements of the game have been put at risk? What specific goals, expectations and accomplishments, of the game, and formerly present, that are no longer being met? This relates back to how casual style has changed the game.

Given, Casual-style=more for less.
Okay, so does having more for less actually harm my willingness to play? No.
Do I value LFR and items associated to a casual nature more than my current game-play? No.
Therefore I am no longer getting more for less.
Therefore because the casual-style undermines the value obtained from the game, any accomplishment made outside of the casual style is inefficient and a virtual waste of time.

Does that ruin a game? No, it changes the game to where your active members of the community are embittered for being treated poorly.