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If one more potential date in this french-speaking country asks me if I am "clean" - which is the equivalent of "disease free" here, and in English - too boot. "Tu es clean?". Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

In a semi-perfect world there would be a bit more money available for public education campaigns about this persuasive, casual, unthinking, insult to HIV+ people.

I know its an STD. I know its incurable. But is it, am I, "dirty"? NOT. I can't even infect anyone fer crissakes, and the new ID doctor gives me a "clean bill of health". I know people just aren't thinking about what they say. I know they are ignorant. I know its my individual responsibility to educate. I know i know i know i know.

There are so few resources available, obviously money is going to safe sex prevention campaigns.

I haven't seen an education campaign about how we are Mr. and Mrs. Everybody in I dunno how long. There was one over a year ago in Switzerland but it was a bit somber. It just had grainy pictures of people and said "Would you think differently about me if I were HIV+" or something like that.

Just wanted to vent. Thx.

The one I want to see is.

"HIV+ people are not dirtier or more immoral than anyone else for crisssakes!"

kinda heavy but to the point.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 01:27:22 PM by mecch »

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Well if I think its unthinking rudeness, and its worth the benefit of the doubt, I say "Are you asking about diseases?"

If the unintended insult gets me on a off day or moment, I might respond with snark like "yeah I clean everyday" -- with evident sarcasm so they get that I understand the euphemism "clean" and don't appreciate it.

Swiss people aren't so direct socially so it might be a bit hard to ask directly something so personal, so they think a binary "clean or dirty" paradigm will scratch up the reassurance they need.

It's pretty funny -- this land of a long history of discretion and dirty dealing also worships "cleanliness".

I don't mind the word disease so much. "DDF" - well that's to the point. We know what constitutes a "drug" and what a "disease" is a bit sliding.

Even morally, I guess I'm OK with people thinking I'm a degenerate. Most of us don't mind a bit of sexual outlaw or hedonistic sodomite patina.

I guess finally I just have to ignore being considered dirty. But you get to talking and kind of like someone, so you're open to them. And they inquire about your dirtiness and unfortunately its not about being a hot dirty lay in the bedroom.

I got the "clean" question today and I didn't like it, that's all I'm saying. I just cut to the chase and said I was poz --and the flirt withered over the next 20 minutes thats for sure.

Even morally, I guess I'm OK with people thinking I'm a degenerate. Most of us don't mind a bit of sexual outlaw or hedonistic sodomite patina.

I guess finally I just have to ignore being considered dirty. But you get to talking and kind of like someone, so you're open to them. And they inquire about your dirtiness and unfortunately its not about being a hot dirty lay in the bedroom.

While I empathize with your feelings, your above comments make me wonder why you care so much, about what other people MAY think about you? You seem to be projecting judgment by others and even if it is true, why you do you believe it to be true? You know who and what you are and if you reject the idea of you being a "degenerate" or being "dirty", then you are neither. The only opinions I care about are those from people I admire and people who know me personally. Anything else is just speculation on the other persons part and it can never affect how I see myself, unless I allow it to be.

You may find that reflecting on why this is such a difficult issue for you, may bring the answers you seek. I think you are just too self aware to let this get to you and my guess is, that there is some part of you that believes these labels. For me, the issue would not be educating others so much, as understanding why I care so much about what others think. And most important, why I think they view me in a negative light.

It's never really bothered me one way or the other. The word clean is just part of the vernacular used to describe someone who doesn't have something. Does Tommy still have a drug problem? No, he's clean. Does he drink? No, he's clean and sober. Did the cops find drugs on him when he was searched? No, he was clean. You get my drift. I know it's pejorative and offensive to people with AIDS, but it just doesn't bother me. Course if you're covered with a sodomite patina it just might be time for a bit of a scrub.

It's never really bothered me one way or the other. The word clean is just part of the vernacular used to describe someone who doesn't have something. Does Tommy still have a drug problem? No, he's clean. Does he drink? No, he's clean and sober. Did the cops find drugs on him when he was searched? No, he was clean. You get my drift. I know it's pejorative and offensive to people with AIDS, but it just doesn't bother me. Course if you're covered with a sodomite patina it just might be time for a bit of a scrub.

I guess the fundamental difference is of the things you listed you can "get clean" where as with us, there's no changing the facts.

maybe we should take a poll about the word "clean" if the majority aren't bothered by it, then we should ask the mods to quit castigating all those in AII? who utter the word. personally, it's never bothered me and I never heard anyone complain about it until I came to this site.

In the long run, it's just a code-word in a stupid question ("are you clean?") for people looking to bareback with a false sense of security, instead of protecting themselves (ie following that safer sex message). I agree, Mecch, it could quite readily make for a good safer sex campaign to explain the futility of asking someone about being clean - especially since it is used so much to mean disease free (ie HIV-). Obviously someone that is so stupid as to ask that could have anything from their previous unprotected sex acts (perhaps already be poz and untested) and should be avoided .

Not just for barebacking purposes. But you got that right - it's code. Its searching for security, safety and reassurance.

it's funny how people need to have the reassurance from some random stranger that they are negative in order to have unprotected sex. but when someone comes right out and tells them their status, they freak out. they don't see the potential bullet they just dodged. at least then you can be safe and protect yourself, with someone who is human enough to look out for his fellow man

"degenerate" or being "dirty" Hell yes, I'm all of those things, but I'm a man, and I cannot be anything else,of course I shower & bathe on a regular basis, I also take care of myself too, are people prejudice, Hell yesthey are, but, they are HUMAN too, so were all flawed as human beings...

We still all have to live together in this place , world, country , nation, city, town and even in this AMG forums....Meehie, I really wouldn't worry too much about who likes you and why, your time would be better spent on something else, do we all live in an imperfect world, Hell yes we do, but don't let any of this stop you

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Seroconverted: Early 80sTested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. Last regimen: Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky )Past regimensFun stuff (in the past): HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

maybe we should take a poll about the word "clean" if the majority aren't bothered by it, then we should ask the mods to quit castigating all those in AII? who utter the word. personally, it's never bothered me and I never heard anyone complain about it until I came to this site.

The mods aren't castigating, they are educating. It's a whole different kettle of fish for someone to use the word clean on a website dedicated to people with AIDS. They don't seem to mind when the mods point that out to them.

maybe we should take a poll about the word "clean" if the majority aren't bothered by it, then we should ask the mods to quit castigating all those in AII? who utter the word. personally, it's never bothered me and I never heard anyone complain about it until I came to this site.

Fortunately your opinions on how AMI should and should not be managed are dismissed with the contempt they deserve.

Fortunately your opinions on how AMI should and should not be managed are dismissed with the contempt they deserve.

excuse me but your statement is incorrect. I wasn't saying anything all about MY opinions. I was talking about a poll which would be a consensus opinion (and that's why I wrote the word "majority"). I just thought it odd that while Mods will "fuss" at people in AII using the word "clean" as being derogatory, that members here would say mecch was reading too much into the situation. Obviously if it's rude for someone to use that written word in the AII forum then it would be just as rude to say that to an HIV+ in person (maybe even ruder)

Either the word is troublesome or it's not. I just thought I was detecting the whiff of a double standard.

Why even ask that question? If the person was "unclean" and knew it, are they suddenly going to come clean (there's that word) just because the question was asked? If someone who knew they were poz were going to have sex protected or unprotected without disclosing, I doubt they would suddenly tell the truth. I suppose some may have the policy of only telling if asked.

It is strange that most people wouldn't trust a contractor and would want proof of insurance, license, and references, but just ask, "Are you clean?" before taking it in the rear. And, I can put myself in that category. I think if the friend who infected me was a contractor, I would protect my interests and be on guard more than I did with sex--even with a friend.

one person using the word clean referring to being HIV- (the guy asking mecch) is just the same as another one using clean to refer to being HIV- (someone on AII)excuse me but your statement is incorrect. I wasn't saying anything all about MY opinions. I was talking about a poll which would be a consensus opinion (and that's why I wrote the word "majority"). I just thought it odd that while Mods will "fuss" at people in AII using the word "clean" as being derogatory, that members here would say mecch was reading too much into the situation. Obviously if it's rude for someone to use that written word in the AII forum then it would be just as rude to say that to an HIV+ in person (maybe even ruder)

Either the word is troublesome or it's not. I just thought I was detecting the whiff of a double standard.

I don't give a particular fuck about what the OP has to say. I pay little attention to his posts these days. He is after all a man in his late 40s who, by his own admission, is sexually aroused by the aroma of beer on the breath of 15 year old boys.

The reason that the fuckwits who ask questions in AMI get grief from us when they use the term "clean" to refer to HIV status is because they don't get to speak to us like that.

It's disrespectful. They are visitors on HIV positive turf seeking favours and they don't get to speak to us like that.

We don't have to take that sort of shit from mortals. Frankly, HIV positive people who are ambivalent in the face being called dirty or diseased or filthy let the side down.

So you can shove your poll up your arse. This isn't question to be resolved by the majority. It's a point of pride and principle.

I don't give a particular fuck about what the OP has to say. I pay little attention to his posts these days. He is after all a man in his late 40s who, by his own admission, is sexually aroused by the aroma of beer on the breath of 15 year old boys.

The reason that the fuckwits who ask questions in AMI get grief from us when they use the term "clean" to refer to HIV status is because they don't get to speak to us like that.

It's disrespectful. They are visitors on HIV positive turf seeking favours and they don't get to speak to us like that.

We don't have to take that sort of shit from mortals. Frankly, HIV positive people who are ambivalent in the face being called dirty or diseased or filthy let the side down.

So you can shove your poll up your arse. This isn't question to be resolved by the majority. It's a point of pride and principle.

I loved it when I could put you on ignore. Unfortunately now I can no longer do that. You spew vulgarity and hostility at whomever you care, when it suits you. I see that it is an acquired taste and many here appreciate it.

I told you, I don't share that feeling and feel harrassed by your aggressive style.

Referring to me in the 3rd person in my own thread, in order to smear me with made up shit, off topic, is totally lame. And odd.

Leave me alone if you don't care what I have to say. Go after others. I flinch every time I see you have a go at people here. Don't do it to me. Go away and stay away from me.

If you want to slap and insult Leatherman because he talked about your turf - Am I Infected - ok, out of my control. Leave me out of it.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 10:16:31 AM by mecch »

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

The reason that the fuckwits who ask questions in AMI get grief from us when they use the term "clean" to refer to HIV status is because they don't get to speak to us like that.

It's disrespectful. They are visitors on HIV positive turf seeking favours and they don't get to speak to us like that.

We don't have to take that sort of shit from mortals. Frankly, HIV positive people who are ambivalent in the face being called dirty or diseased or filthy let the side down.

Matty, as usual you and I happen to disagree; but only about the reasoning this time. You think it's disrepectful, and I think it's ignorance/lack of education. Obviously the people that use that term clearly have missed the whole safer sex message in the first place. But we do both agree that the usage of that term should not go unchallenged.

However if you'll notice (and it was why I posted what I did), several of the first answers Mecch received clearly said the opposite. They basically accused Mecch of being too sensitive and that the usage of the word "clean" was a non-issuse or at worst a mental issue with Mecch. So I wondered if people really think it's such a non-issue then why do the Mods make such a big issue of it? Clearly not all members here see it (the usage of the word clean) as you (and I and the other Mods) do.

your above comments make me wonder why you care so much, about what other people MAY think about you? You seem to be projecting judgment by others and even if it is true, why you do you believe it to be true? You know who and what you are and if you reject the idea of you being a "degenerate" or being "dirty", then you are neither.

It's never really bothered me one way or the other. The word clean is just part of the vernacular used to describe someone who doesn't have something. ... I know it's pejorative and offensive to people with AIDS, but it just doesn't bother me. Course if you're covered with a sodomite patina it just might be time for a bit of a scrub.

I don't give a particular fuck about what the OP has to say. I pay little attention to his posts these days.

then, OMIGOD, why are you even bothering to post in his thread??!?! You quite obviously do not care for the OP (or myself as we know from prior threads) yet here you are stirring up trouble. I would like to also point out that you just lied, for by posting here you clearly ARE paying attention to Mecch's posts. And obviously to mine, although you and I have frequently butted heads. I really suggest that since you can't control yourself from posting pejorative things to people you don't like or care about, that you use the IGNORE function once it returns.

Personally, I find the use of the word "clean" when referencing sexual health to be extremely offensive. I'll correct anyone using the term, whether they're using it out of ignorance or malice. I never used it in terms of hiv status or sexual health in general before I was diagnosed and I don't expect anyone else to use it either. It's ignorance and I do my best to educate when I do come across someone using the word this way.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

In my short time living with HIV I've never heard the words "dirty" or "clean" used when referencing a person's status. What I have experienced though makes me wish certain people had deemed me as "dirty" in person. I've had both friends and family just pull away from me.... I can only assume, because they view me as "dirty". Opportunities to discuss just never happened... and by the looks of it, never will.

However if you'll notice (and it was why I posted what I did), several of the first answers Mecch received clearly said the opposite. They basically accused Mecch of being too sensitive and that the usage of the word "clean" was a non-issuse or at worst a mental issue with Mecch. So I wondered if people really think it's such a non-issue then why do the Mods make such a big issue of it? Clearly not all members here see it (the usage of the word clean) as you (and I and the other Mods) do.

I want to clarify that I was not accusing Mecch of anything, instead I was trying to offer some insight into why he may react so negatively to the use of the words "clean" and "degenerate". I think the term "clean" is incredibly offensive and that ultimately education is the only way to decrease the use of the word. However, the OP was trying to understand his own reactions to the word and so that is where I placed my emphasis. We can never control what others say to or about us, but we can certainly control how we react. That was all I was offering, an alternate view of other variables that may contribute to his revulsion at both terms and maybe some ideas on how he could limit his reactions. Mecch was asking for personal advice, not a discussion on whether the words were hurtful. It was obvious in his initial post, that he found the words offensive and I was concentrating on helping him personally, not on educating folks on the proper use of certain words.

...I find the use of the word "clean" when referencing sexual health to be extremely offensive. ...

I am coming to the rescue of the offender... He did not use the word clean (in English), he used the English word in a French sentence, which confers to the word a complete different baggage. It is quite usual to use a foreign word in ones mother tongue to precisely point out that there is no real proper way to ask

A - He wanted to ask, that is his right and he is right to ask. (I guess none asks because one only asks if they think they can trust the answer they get)

B - asking (which is an OKAY thing to do) can be emotionally difficult for the person who ask as well as the person being asked

C - the 'offender' was in need of of term that would be softer than just: have you been tested recently for HIV and what was the result ?

D- the 'offender' is not offered a proper option on how to ask ? (have you seen any TV campain about how to properly ask the question in politically correct terms recently ?)

E - he comes with something 'inappropriate', let's admit it,

Then... what is the proper word to use then ?? (and in French, SVP, if you do not mind)

D- the 'offender' is not offered a proper option on how to ask ? (have you seen any TV campain about how to properly ask the question in politically correct terms recently ?)...Then... what is the proper word to use then ?? (and in French, SVP, if you do not mind)

ah! and that's the crux of the issue. (ignoring any disrespect or prejudism issues)

There is no proper way to ask because it's a nonsensical question. You'll never know if you're getting the truth in the answer, so there is no reason for asking in the first place. (Are you clean? Why sure! ) A TV/ad compaign should explain to never ask that kind of question in the first place but to always engage in safer sex.

ah! and that's the crux of the issue. (ignoring any disrespect or prejudism issues)

There is no proper way to ask because it's a nonsensical question. You'll never know if you're getting the truth in the answer, so there is no reason for asking in the first place. (Are you clean? Why sure! ) A TV/ad compaign should explain to never ask that kind of question in the first place but to always engage in safer sex.

Yeah that was kinda my wishful thinking for a semi-perfect world.

Just ask for the info desired, and leave out all the supposedly polite round-abouts that are just gonna put everyone in the shit.

I really deeply believe that HIV is a virus with no morals, and certainly no cleanliness or dirtiness. I felt that way in the 80's.

Fear it, OK.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

I really deeply believe that HIV is a virus with no morals, and certainly no cleanliness or dirtiness.

that's one of the things I talk about sometimes when I'm speaking to groups of people about HIV - especially the college kids (god that makes me sound so old LOL). HIV is just another one of the many germs running around on the planet. I refuse to let people stigmatize me for being sick with an illness. While it may, for the most part, be sexually transmitted and maybe that makes it a bit risque; just like all sorts of other illnesses, it's just one person transmitting a germ to another person.

God knows the people that ought to be ashamed of themselves are those people that keep speading colds and flu around every Winter.

Just ask for the info desired, and leave out all the supposedly polite round-abouts that are just gonna put everyone in the shit.

but again, asking for that info leads nowhere. Only by being tested together and getting results together can anyone truly know the HIV status of someone else. and of course, if you're having safe sex, there's really no reason to ask this question about someone's status anyway.

all in all, I think this issue of people using the word "clean" in association with HIV infection is just another part of that "safe sex message not working" issue.

I don't particularly like the clean/dirty binary but I am thankful that when people express that way they're showing me their ignorance upfront. Interestingly, I don't think I have ever been asked that question, in quite the same way, face to face. It seems to be an electronic artefact.

I don't particularly like the clean/dirty binary but I am thankful that when people express that way they're showing me their ignorance upfront. Interestingly, I don't think I have ever been asked that question, in quite the same way, face to face. It seems to be an electronic artefact.

I have before face to face, I also ask them to LEAVE and don't let the door-knob hit you in the ass on your way out, good riddance, i also sent them an email that said: "may a thousand flea's infest all of your body hair" I NEVER heard form them again, and in my book, that was a good thing

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

I don't particularly like the clean/dirty binary but I am thankful that when people express that way they're showing me their ignorance upfront. Interestingly, I don't think I have ever been asked that question, in quite the same way, face to face. It seems to be an electronic artefact.

And here I am, the opposite. I have been asked if I am clean a number of times, and I never took offense to it. Kinda like someone posted earlier: It has nothing to do with clean or dirty on a hygenic level, it is just a word in the lexicon we use. Asking someone if they are clean, i.e. if they are off drugs, or doing other things that are not so good, isn't offensive. It may just be me though, due to the things I have seen in my life, it takes a lot for me to get offended over pretty much anything.

I do have to ask though. Considering that there is another active thread going about why the safe sex message didn't work for us, what makes anyone think that yet another campaign about something not nearly as important is going to work? We smoke, drink, bareback, drive fast, and eat tons of red meat with merry abandon, despite all the warnings we have read/heard throughout our lives. Why would people suddenly sit up and take heed of a campaign about something that, in the context of the larger world, is basically trivial and meaningless? Wouldn't the energy and resources funneled into such a project be better utilized by directing them into someting more useful to more people.