[quote=WhiteDove]What effect does participation in a Mass that deviates from GIRM have on our immortal souls?

One of the answers should read:

"It only hurts us if we are knowing and willing participants who have

the ability to attend a properly conducted Mass"
[/quote]

I do not know. This is one area I have been struggling with. I cannot attend any other mass, they are all the same in my area, and the only difference is there is one evening mass that is worse than all the others. As an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist I took a leave for a few months to get my bearing, having to participate in liturgical abuses has become a source of great anguish. I will follow this thread and see what others will say. I am very interested. Thank you for starting this thread.

First (since we just finished the Olympics), I have been dazzled by gymnastics (men’s not girl’s–it should be an adult sport) for a long time. It’s a pity when you watch what seems to be a fine routine, and you hear “He’ll lose a tenth point for that; his legs weren’t exactly vertical, etc.” So what was enjoyable to me is less so, since it is being nitpicked. It’s okay from the judge, but I dislike it from the commentators.

I have a similar feeling at Mass sometimes. “Oh, that’s not in ther rubrics, Father’ll lose a tenth of a point here; that’s prohibited in the GIRM, he could lose half a point, etc.”

I’ve been far better off since I’ve mentally left the GIRM at the church door. It’s not my responsibility. If the Mass is valid and licit, it is the unbloody Sacrifice. Period. We need to concentrate on what is happening at the Mass, not necessarily on every word and gesture. There is a Judge on this area too.

[quote=WhiteDove]What effect does participation in a Mass that deviates from GIRM have on our immortal souls?

One of the answers should read:

“It only hurts us if we are knowing and willing participants who have the ability to attend a properly conducted Mass”
[/quote]

This poll promotes or, at least provides the opportunity, for forum members to make absolutely untenable and unjustified assumptions that their souls will suffer spiritual damage as a consequence of attending a Mass which they have independently judged to be liturgically irregular. It absolutely plays to those who suffer from scrupulosity and those who are so obsessed with dissecting the “performance” of the Mass that they forget their purpose in attendance is to participate in the liturgical expression of worship of God. This kind of thread encourages those who would sooner attend Mass with the GIRM in hand than a missalette.

John is absolutely correct when he says:

I’ve been far better off since I’ve mentally left the GIRM at the church door. It’s not my responsibility. If the Mass is valid and licit, it is the unbloody Sacrifice. Period. We need to concentrate on what is happening at the Mass, not necessarily on every word and gesture.

This kind of leniency is the very reason why liturgical abuse is so wide spread. And the problem with that is that in time it can truly undermine some aspects of the Eucharist. If that was not the case, there would not have been a reason for the Holy See to issue warnings after warnings. We would not have had Redemtoris Sacramentum issued either. You know what? It does not even address all of the abuses that seem to prevail. Furthermore, none of the warnings or even this last document that attempts to deal with some of the abuses made any difference. There was an announcement from the pulpit of its existence, I had to find it on line myself, none of the points were discussed in my parish, and business went on as before. This is wrong, wrong, wrong!

I don’t think this topic is best served as a poll with “canned” responses. My response would be much more nuanced.
I do believe that liturgical abuses, if the perpetrator is aware that what he is doing is an abuse, fosters a culture of disobedience, an attitude that we don’t need to obey a legitimate authority exercising that authority in a reasonable manner within its sphere of competence.
In time, this attitude could spread beyond liturgy to matters of faith and morals (Lex orandi, lex credendi)

“Serenely Catholic worship in the face of the liturgical revolutionaries is a great spiritual benefit. Torrents of grace are provided the to Catholic faithful who refuse to surrender their liturgical unity with the Apostolic See, and the bishops in union with it.”

“Serenely Catholic worship in the face of the liturgical revolutionaries is a great spiritual benefit. Torrents of grace are provided the to Catholic faithful who refuse to surrender their liturgical unity with the Apostolic See, and the bishops in union with it.”

[/quote]

There is just one thing wrong with this summary. None of the liturgical abuses are in communion with the Holy See. And THAT puts the obedient lay person in conflict.

Participating in such a Mass does do harm in that there are formational benefits in assisting at Mass. For example, if one practices obedience and reverence at Liturgy, one becomes good at it and it shows in all other areas of life. If one participates sloppily or irreverently, that is what becomes the habit that bleeds into the rest of one’s life, and can actually do harm.

It’s analogous to doing an exercise in the wrong way. One can be only slightly off the routine, and just not get the full physical benefit of the exercise, but receive benefits nonetheless OR one can be so far off the routine that one can actually inflict damage like shin splints, tennis elbow, whatever.

I am one of the late ones to see the Passion. Only saw it recently but very deeply moved. As always, God’s timing is right.

I feel absolutely confident in Jesus love for me, personally. He knows me better than I know myself. I know He knew the number of every hair on my head when He hung on that Cross.

I do not believe he was doing the “gotcha” thing, waiting to see if I would stretch or bend rubrics. I cannot believe all that blood was shed or agony endured with this in mind. That goes for Celebrants of the Mass as well as me. If we believe that is what He died for, we have indeed missed His message.

I will go on as I always have as a Catholic, and try to do my best to be like Jesus. I love Holy Mother Church and honor her but do not plan to miss her message either.

[quote=Khoria Anna]Participating in such a Mass does do harm in that there are formational benefits in assisting at Mass. .
[/quote]

Exactly

Khoria Anna:

For example, if one practices obedience and reverence at Liturgy, one becomes good at it and it shows in all other areas of life. If one participates sloppily or irreverently, that is what becomes the habit that bleeds into the rest of one’s life, and can actually do harm.

It’s analogous to doing an exercise in the wrong way. One can be only slightly off the routine, and just not get the full physical benefit of the exercise, but receive benefits nonetheless OR one can be so far off the routine that one can actually inflict damage like shin splints, tennis elbow, whatever.

Further, just because the we receive the body and blood of our lord does not necessarily mean the God is pleased with our actions. We must receive with reverence and respect for God.

…just because the we receive the body and blood of our lord does not necessarily mean the God is pleased with our actions. We must receive with reverence and respect for God.

I agree. We cannot be complacent and trust God will work it all out. We are his hands and feet after all. Liturgical abuse is harmful. Anyone who says otherwise helps to perpetuate them. Complacency is a sin. Obedience is a must, but who are we to obey? Disobedient clergy? Or should we follow them and in turn disobey the Pope? It is not an easy choice.

Quite honestly, I couldn’t vote on the choices given because my reason and everyone’s reason for attending Mass should be for the love of God and eyes and heart directed to the Holy Sacrifice.
I’ve been noticing lately that I’ve been guilty of “policing” at Mass and I don’t like myself for that…
As previous posters have said, “I’m checking the GIRM at the door” from now on… and I’m just going to have to pray harder for things to come together for the good for those who love God…

[font=Verdana]Quite honestly, I couldn’t vote on the choices given because my reason and everyone’s reason for attending Mass should be for the love of God and eyes and heart directed to the Holy Sacrifice. I’ve been noticing lately that I’ve been guilty of “policing” at Mass and I don’t like myself for that…

[/font]

Annunciata, I totally agree with you. But watching is quite different from participating. If I am not involved in the liturgy, I do not even notice. But it is very hard to serve at mass knowing what you have to do is contrary to the guidelines issued by the Holy See.

[quote=tru_dvotion]I agree. We cannot be complacent and trust God will work it all out. We are his hands and feet after all. Liturgical abuse is harmful. Anyone who says otherwise helps to perpetuate them. Complacency is a sin. Obedience is a must, but who are we to obey? Disobedient clergy? Or should we follow them and in turn disobey the Pope? It is not an easy choice.
[/quote]

I agree it’s not an easy choice. But we should never participate in something that can harm our soul or is contrary to the word of God . (Gal. 1:8). That’s not martyrdom, it’s foolishness. However, what are our choices ? The Church is in a time of suffering. The people suffer as well. When the affect of the Mass is such that it damages our relationship with God, we suffer. The place of relief I have found is the Traditional Latin Mass. We should pray for its return. :gopray:

None of the liturgical abuses are in communion with the Holy See. And THAT puts the obedient lay person in conflict.

I reply:

For whatever it is worth, I apply the GIRM and other Apostolic See- approved regulations in every action that applies to me.

Our parish still did not kneel after the Sanctus: I started.

For a good while I was the only one.

Now I am not.

I do not judge anyone who does not kneel: Lord kws the laity is probably completely befuddled by all this.

I do not seek to make a revolution or a scene: I simply kneel.

If a priest “invites me” to remain standing, I simply remain, prayerfully, on my knees, as is my duty and my joy. I have never been challenged beyond that “invitation”. If I were, I would simply smile and borrow Monsignor Kelly’s classic line:

For whatever it is worth, I apply the GIRM and other Apostolic See- approved regulations in every action that applies to me.

Our parish still did not kneel after the Sanctus: I started.

For a good while I was the only one.

Now I am not.

I do not judge anyone who does not kneel: Lord kws the laity is probably completely befuddled by all this.

I do not seek to make a revolution or a scene: I simply kneel.

If a priest “invites me” to remain standing, I simply remain, prayerfully, on my knees, as is my duty and my joy. I have never been challenged beyond that “invitation”. If I were, I would simply smile and borrow Monsignor Kelly’s classic line:

“Pardon me, Father. I have Catholic knees”.
[/quote]

I LOVE YOU brother or sister, who ever you are in Christ! THANK YOU so much! But it is a little different when an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist has to participate in ways direct opposition to what the Holy See requires from us. When one serves at the altar, one has to follow the directives of the celebrant. One cannot disobey what the priest instructs us to do. Out there among the congregation we can and, without causing scandal, we should follow our conscience. But very different rules apply when one serves at the altar. I simply cannot disobey my priest and introduce something that he has no desire for. If he sends me to purify the vessels I have to purify the vessels. If he sends me to get the chalice from the Tabernacle, I have to get the chalice from the tabernacle. If he sends me to distribute Holy Communion and tells a co-celebrating priest to sit it out, I have to go and distribute Holy Communion. I have no other recourse, yet I wonder… am I going to hell for all this disobedience? After all… I do not HAVE to participate; I can step down and cease to be an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist. But someone else will replace me, and they may take more liberties than the priest requires and then… would that be on my conscience?

I am usually the kind of person who wants to follow everything to the letter of the law, be it in religion or anything else. That can be burdensome, though, and can lead to scrupulosity, which I do try to avoid for my own sanity.

I take great comfort in following the rubrics during Mass - when I attend Church at my mother’s parish, during the Our Father, I fold my hands in prayer and merely shake my head when the person next to me tries to hold my hand. Sometimes I feel as if I’m being rude, but I know that there is no provision for hand-holding during the Our Father in the GIRM. I always bow my head during the Creed at the appropriate part although I do think I am the only one who does this in my parish. (Hard to look around when your head is bowed!)

However, recently at my niece’s First Holy Communion, our pastor invited all the first communicants up on the altar during the Consecration. I thought that was wonderful that these little ones could be up close and really witness this miracle happening. (They miss so much sitting in the pews because they are short. I am of the ilk that all people with small children should sit in the front so they can see. Those children who do sit up front tend to be better behaved because their attention is absorbed by what is going on on the altar. In the back they can only see the backs of the people in the pews in front of them. But I digress . . .)

Then I read in this Forum that calling these children up on the altar is not part of the rubric. And I had to wonder what harm there was in doing that and if, perhaps, it should be part of the rubric. I never questioned it to see if perhaps my pastor got special permission to do this. It just made me wonder if in certain circumstances there shouldn’t be some leeway that the pastors have.

tru_dvotion writes:
LOVE YOU brother or sister, who ever you are in Christ! THANK YOU so much!

Right back atcha, brother or sister!

But it is a little different when an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist has to participate in ways direct opposition to what the Holy See requires from us.When one serves at the altar, one has to follow the directives of the celebrant.

I see how this is indeed very different, and of course you are completely right. When one serves at the altar, one indeed has to follow the orders of the celebrant.

One cannot disobey what the priest instructs us to do. Out there among the congregation we can and, without causing scandal, we should follow our conscience. But very different rules apply when one serves at the altar. I simply cannot disobey my priest and introduce something that he has no desire for. If he sends me to purify the vessels I have to purify the vessels. If he sends me to get the chalice from the Tabernacle, I have to get the chalice from the tabernacle. If he sends me to distribute Holy Communion and tells a co-celebrating priest to sit it out, I have to go and distribute Holy Communion. I have no other recourse, yet I wonder… am I going to hell for all this disobedience?

Quite to the contrary. You are storing up for yourself unimaginable treasure in heaven, because you have done all that you can do to both serve the Lord, and remain faithful to His Church. You have so much extra grace that our Lady is probably distributing the overflow all over the place. You’ll see, one day

After all… I do not HAVE to participate; I can step down and cease to be an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist. But someone else will replace me, and they may take more liberties than the priest requires and then… would that be on my conscience?

Because your truly beautfiul soul struggles in this way, I assure you, the Spirit will lead you in the course of action that will be the best. I haven’t the slightest doubt about it.

I recall the old story attributed to St. Francis; how, after enduring every imaginable setback and failure in his attempts to restore the Church, he went before the Lord in the tabernacle, pured out his heart, and said, “That’s why I have no choice, Lord. I’m leaving”.

The legend goes, that the saint heard, from the tabernacle, as he was leaving the Church, a Voice: