I use Stanislaus sauce, but the truth is it's hard to find. If you have Restaurant Depot near you, you can pick it up there. All you need is a business license for anything and they will sell it to you.

Actually, if you have a favorite independently owned cafe/dinner/restaurant that you frequent, just ask to speak to the Chef or Kitchen Manager. Tell them your situation. Ask them to add a case of Stanislaus to their next order. Granted, it will be 6 #10 cans of product. But it should not run you over 30$. ( I think, I have not seen a price list in awhile). Also, do this when the restaurant is not full. 2:00 - 5:00 p.m. would be your best time.

Quote

If you don't want to go through all the hassle, I like Hunt's crushed tomatoes.With Hunt's you will need to add a little more sugar. I use brown sugar. Not sure why, but it taste better. I always add a little Hunts tomato paste to keep the consistency nice. Crushed tomatoes is very watery and I do not cook my sauce before putting it on the pizza.With all my sauce I add salt, pepper, onion powder, Italian seasoning, hot sauce (Cholula is best, but Tobacco will do) and fresh Basil. Rosemary is great too. Personally, I like to add the Rosemary to the dough because it gives it a nice Focaccia taste.

Proportions is hard to determine because it is so small and my scale only measures to the gram.

Give it a try and let me know.

Grilled

When I have to use any thing but the "fresh pack" products, like the Hunts et al. I will make a gastric with balsamic vinegar to bend out the acidity from the added citric acid. The balsamic will bend out the straight sugar flavor with out enhancing the citric acid. Same thing your doing with the brown sugar, but a lot more potent.

Its about 1 part sugar, to 2 parts vinegar.

So try 1/4 cup of sugar to a half a cup of Balsamic vinegar. (Don't waste you money on good vinegar for this)

Melt the sugar in a small sauce pan dry on medium low. Make sure the bottom of the pan is evenly covered with sugar.The outside perimeter is going to turn to liquid and burn first. So have a spoon in hand (wood is good) and keep siring as best you can. Its OK if you can't get all the sugar to melt. When the sugar starts to caramelize, or turn color, add the vinegar.

Make sure your not standing directly over the pan, it is going to hiss and spatter for a little bit. And be careful with caramelizing sugar, its going to be at about 380 F. It will stick to you like glue, and burn.

Let that simmer away for a couple minutes, try and get what ever bits of hard sugar that are left to dissolve. Put it a container you won't need for a couple weeks, and cool it in the fridge. It should be a syrup when it comes out.

Add it maybe 1/2 a teaspoon at a time to your sauce, till you get what your after.

If your sauce pan and spoon have chunks of rock hard sugar stuck to them, just fill the pan with water, and boil it for a few minutes

My #1 problem, and I know is this: I wait until the last minute to decide to make pizza, and not thinking ahead from the last time I made pizza (usually a week before) I don't have any on-hand. I'm an idiot, I know.

So here I am craving Detroit style pizza (again) on Friday during lent. No pepperoni; I'm cool with that for tonight.

But I want to make a quick Detroit style dough so I decided to try Hog's recipe. It's sitting in the pan now doing... well nothing. I'm afraid I did something wrong and I haven't even gotten it dressed and into the oven yet. Did I make this correctly (from reply #63)? No sugar? No oil? I used the cold water method another poster stated, but I'm looking at this thing and getting worried. I will make another "regualr" batch of dough for tonight (American style) so the kids will have something to eat.

As a side note, I live in St. Clair Shores, MI so I'm very well acquainted with Detroit style, Cloverleaf was my favorite. HOWEVER, I finally got off my butt and went to Loui's at 9 and Dequindre - OH MAN, THAT'S THE STUFF! So that is what I would ultimately b shotting for, a dough like that.

I worked at 3 different pizza places as a kid (2 independant and Little Caesar's before hot n nasty). I wish I would have taken notes; I just can't perfect a dough recpie, although I've been close oh so many times.

Anyways, that's my story, I will post as to how this gooey stuff works out. CHEERS!

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Making great pizza, outstanding beer and fantastic BBQ. This is my passion!

Epic fail And I was SO looking for forward to Detroit style tonight. Not sure how this was made to work for others, but no uh-uh. No rise, in fact it SHRUNK! I didn't know a product that had yeast could DO that. Ay yi yi.

The regular pie should be good though.

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Making great pizza, outstanding beer and fantastic BBQ. This is my passion!

But I want to make a quick Detroit style dough so I decided to try Hog's recipe. It's sitting in the pan now doing... well nothing. I'm afraid I did something wrong and I haven't even gotten it dressed and into the oven yet. Did I make this correctly (from reply #63)? No sugar? No oil? I used the cold water method another poster stated, but I'm looking at this thing and getting worried.

Hey GuyReply #199 is actually the basic formula, #63 was just one of many experiments.http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963Yes, no oil or sugar. But cold water will retard and extend the fermentation time. For a gotta have it now pie, I use 100-105 degree water and up the IDY to 3/4 tsp then place the panned dough in the warmest spot in the house. About 2 1/2 hours later, give or take, it is ready to bake for me. Not as good as a longer fermentation but works well enough as an emergency dough.If you decide to try it again, lowering the hydration some from #199 is an idea. Others have posted they prefer this and I am tending to agree although I have not had the time to bake anything lately to experiment myself. Sorry your dough shrunk, not sure what may have caused that but hope you keep trying.

Wow! What an epic thread! From September 2006 through March 2011 -- I guess I make that April, now -- must be some type of record.

I joined just to post my first attempt. Pics forthcoming.

I'm trying to get something close to Cloverleaf, although I absolutely love Buddy's and Shields, but haven't tried Louie's. I do a lot of out-of-country time for my employer, and invariably the only pizzas available are those saltine cracker-like Neapolitan, brick oven pizzas. Sure, they're edible, but they're not Detroit style pizzas.

I'm now going to China for three years. It's time to learn the knowledge that will let me take the great taste and texture with me. With that, I'm excited to try this. So here's my version history up until now:

Last night (Friday):

I decide that I don't want to make 20 bad pizzas trying to get to the right one. On the other hand, flour is dirt cheap, and I don't need to make an entire pizza to get the bread right. So I decide that I'm going to just make the bread.

I use PizzaHog's formula from Post #199, by weight on my scale. I use Meijer AP flour, and a packet (not by weight) of Red Star IDY. I used ice water from the tap (since I imagine all of the restaurants use the same Detroit-sourced tap water as well).

I don't have a real square pizza pan at this point, so I decide to use my Lodge cast iron skillet. Yeah, that's round, 10" at the base, just shy of 12" at the rim.

After 15 minutes at 475°F, I have one excellent focaccia! The interior texture is exactly what I'm looking for, and the surface is nice and crunchy (since there were no toppings, of course). The base wasn't as brown and cruchy as I was looking for, but I'll chalk this up to the heavy cast iron that couldn't get very hot very fast.

(Not wanting to waste this gorgeous bread, I melted a couple of tablespoons of butter with some fresh, minced garlic, brushed the bread with it, and served it with a tiny bowl of EVOO with balsamic vinegar as a dip.)

Also I couldn't find white cheddar at Meijer, and I didn't want to drive to Walmart on a Friday evening. Some research indicates that the only reason regular cheddar is yellow is because a dye is added, and it doesn't affect the taste. So I'll run out tomorrow and get some cheddar regardless of the color.

Today (Saturday):Today I an out to Roselli's to get some real pizza pans. The clerk gave me some care instructions which indicate that they're sourced from "Hillside Metal Ware Company" out of New Jersey. Maybe not the real real deal, but they look close enough. (I've passed by Roselli's at least 1000 times in my life, and it had never occurred to me to go in. I think I love this store in general!)

I started the seasoning process in the oven, but my wife couldn't stand the smell, so I finished on the gas grill.

My intention was just to make bread again, but in the new pans, and also to try a higher protein flour. So today I made the dough with 50/50 Meijer AP and Betty Crocker "better for bread" flour. Given how pleased I was with last night's bread, I hope I don't regret this, because I've also decided, "What the hell? Let's build a pizza!" Also I've upped the flour to 300 g because the surface area of my new pan is bigger than the Lodge's, and it's easier to do the ratios in my head with an even 300.

On the way back from Roselli's, then, I had to stop for the cheddar. It was easier to stop at Kroger on the way home rather than head up Groesbeck to Meijer. I found white Cheddar there! Pricey stuff.

When I get home, I look for the mozzarella that I'm going to mix. Damn, the freezer has sharp cheddar, mozzarella, and some Italian mix with a variety of cheeses. Now I decide I'm going to break the pizza up into quadrants. I'll line the edges halfway with the white cheddar, and the other half with the yellow. I'll do one quadrant the Italian mix, one of pure white cheddar, one of white mixed with mozzarella, and one with yellow mixed with mozzarella.

I prepare the toppings. I'm going to use pepperoni (some Italian-sounding brand), red- and white-onion (julienned), and green pepper (diced).

Dang it, forgot the sauce. I have some Contadina tomato sauce with Italian herbs. The ingredients aren't helpful: onion powder and herbs. A quick taste, and I throw in some garlic powder, thyme, and oregano. Not bad, kind of like Crazy Sauce. It'll do.

Oven is completely heated. Now I'll assembly the pizza, so that the oven can cruise at its temperature for a bit. I've chosen 450°F, convect roast. Because I have a convection oven, it has both convect bake and convect roast settings. For baking, only the element around the rear fan comes on. For roast, the upper element also comes on. That'll probably be important for browning. If it burns, maybe I'll try a combination next time.

Results:Wow, that's a lot of grease. Pepperoni? Low quality cheeses? No matter, it looks delicious. I cut around the edge with a paring knife, and then what? I have a wide spatula, but when I tilt the pan, the toppings slide. Clearly that's not right. I have to get the pizza out of the pan so that the bottom won't get soggy. I end up slicing it into three, and taking out a section at a time, and moving to a cooling rack.

All in all, I'm not happy with the bread. I'm going to blame the switch to the bread flower. The rise was okay, but the grain structure wasn't anything like Friday's.

Also I probably didn't account for the surface area properly. PizzaHog's recipe for a 10x14 is good for 140 inches-squared. My 10" Lodge was only 78.5 inches squared, and my new pan, at about 8.25" by 12.25" comes to about 101 inches squared.

Because my wife loved the pizza, she's given me permission to try again tomorrow! So...

Next steps:

Friday's focaccia would probably be a bit too thick for a pizza, but yet I don't think I'd be happy with PizzaHog's 273 g of flour for my size of pan. So I think I'll still use 100% = 300 g of flour. I've also made a sponge (2:1 water to flour, plus the yeast). I'll let it wake up for a bit, then throw it in the fridge for the night.

Welcome balthisar and nice pie! Looks like all that is left is tweaking to your equipment and taste.Some hopefully helpful info to aid you in your experiments:The expanded dough calculator can quicky adjust formula's for pan shape and size and everything else. Under "dough tools" link at the main page http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html.For a less greasy pie the white cheddar (which oils off a lot) can be blended with a low fat mozz or something like it. Peperoni can be degreased by layering slices between paper towels and nuking for 10-20 seconds. The idea (credit to RN) is to keep the slices under 140 degrees. Repeat as necessary. A very well seasoned pan allows for a minimum of oil under the dough but I see you are already on this one.At this hydration I find the dough is subject to compaction. The weight of the toppings compresses the soft dough and it shrinks some during the bake so it is never as thick when done as it is when raw.At least one local Costco (Hall Rd) has white cheddar less then $3.50/lb, and other than Walmart I have not found any at anywhere near this price.My unconfirmable but considered reliable source indicates Cloverleaf uses a brick cheese that can be found at Roselli's, but only in 40lb blocks for about $2/lb. I have tried it, found it freezes well, but is quite mild to me and lacks the zip of white cheddar.No experience with convection ovens but in my conventional gas oven baking the pie on the lowest or second to lowest rack gets the bottom heat/fry right to achieve the crispy crust.Looking forward to your continued experiments and posts, and thinking how you will prob have to do it all over again once you get to China!Hog

I've looked at the dough calculator in passing; I'll probably sit down and work my way through it sometime this week. There were some things that I didn't know the meaning of offhand. I just need to not look at it quickly!

I forgot to mention that for the first pie, my cheese combinations were something like this: for the pure cheddar perimeter, half of it was the sharp cheddar from Kroger (Kroger extra sharp, $8/24 oz at Kroger on Groesbeck), and the other half was white cheddar (Cabot extra sharp, $5/8 oz at the same store). After the 15 minute roast, they looked pretty much the same at the crust, i.e., the orange Kroger stuff wasn't distracting. And at the crust, they tasted pretty much the same.

The rest of that pie was divided into three pieces (not four after all): 1/4 pure white cheddar, 1/4 pure yellow, and 1/2 mixed 50:50 white cheddar with Sargento mozzarella. The yellow cheddar was too overwhelming, and the white cheddar was pretty good by itself. Being that they're both extra sharp, I guess I'll chalk up the difference to the Kroger stuff trying too hard. The best, though, was the 50:50 mix.

So last night's pie report... here I was really trying to go for the improved crust. I had leftover sauce and chopped veggies from Saturday, and so I tried to make the pizza more or less the same for comparison purposes. The cheese was different, though. I only had a little bit of shredded Kroger yellow cheddar left, and I didn't want to grate any more, so I used it to ring the perimeter. The leftover white cheddar got mixed with the leftover mozzarella, and that got mixed with a bag of Sargento Italian cheese mix. Like I said, I was concentrating on the bread!

On Saturday I made a really loose sponge with 2 parts water to 1 part AP flour with an envelope of instant yeast, and let it ferment for a couple of hours before putting it in the fridge for the night. The next day I made the dough with the sponge to the same 75% hydration, and let it proof in the oven for several hours while I enjoyed the warm day in my yard. Wow, it got one heck of a rise. As I waited for the oven to heat up, it sank quite a bit, and then a bit more as I added toppings.

For the cheese, this time I weighed it out. I figured about 300 g based on the suggestion of 15 oz for the larger, Buddy's pizza.

Into the oven, the yeast went absolutely friggin' nuts and I got a really impressive rise. Out of the oven and -- dang! I forgot the sauce. I cheated, heated it in the microwave, and spooned it on top.

For my second attempt, this was by far the most excellent pizza I've made in my life, bar none. I think, though, that targeting 300 g flour for my pan size was a tad too much, so I'm going to repeat it again twice: once using the calculator that you mentioned with the same proofing time, and again with the 300 g and the quick rise time I used on Saturday. And as long as I'm at it, I'm going to get the good pepperoni from Roselli's, and look for the cheaper white cheddar at Wallyworld on Hall. As for the mozzarella, it looked like Roselli's had some manageable sizes in their cooler, so I may pick up some there, too.

Blue steel pizza pans back in stock. I ordered some pans from paprod (P.A. products) about 2 months ago and got a call from them yesterday telling me that my order is on its way. I also ordered some from Northern Pizza Equipment Inc. and got an email from them today saying my order has shipped. You can order online and use a credit card when ordering from Northern Pizza Equipment, they are located in Dexter, MI. To order from P.A products located in Livonia, MI. you have to call and use COD or send them payment. I also found some pretty good pans at WalMart they are made by Onieda Commercial 9"X13" and 8"X8". These pans are nonstick but I've gotten good results,thanks to Pizzahogs recipe. Like with most places I've had good and not as good pizzas at Buddy's, with Pizzahogs recipe I can get consistent results and the urge for Buddy's has lessened and the fact that I'm over 2000 miles away.

Thanks for the update on P.A. Products and for telling us of the availability of blue steel rectangular pans from Northern Pizza Equipment. The link to the Northern site for the blue steel rectangular pans is http://yhst-14911471596624.stores.yahoo.net/bluesteelpans.html. The Northern 8"x 10" and 10" x 14" sizes are what Buddy's uses.

Regarding the oil used to slick the pans, Canola, as someone reported, seems right. It has a high smoke point and neutral flavor. I suspect that a restaurant would be wary of using peanut oil, at least without some kind of warning sign, for fear of accidentally serving a customer with a peanut allergy. My understanding is that the reaction can be quite severe and met a woman with a peanut allergy who told me that she did not even need to consume a peanut product to be affected, but merely to be in a room where peanut products, including vapors from hot peanut oil or eating from a plate on which a peanut oil-containing product had been, even if the plate had been washed.

Regarding the oil used to slick the pans, Canola, as someone reported, seems right. It has a high smoke point and neutral flavor. I suspect that a restaurant would be wary of using peanut oil, at least without some kind of warning sign, for fear of accidentally serving a customer with a peanut allergy. My understanding is that the reaction can be quite severe and met a woman with a peanut allergy who told me that she did not even need to consume a peanut product to be affected, but merely to be in a room where peanut products, including vapors from hot peanut oil or eating from a plate on which a peanut oil-containing product had been, even if the plate had been washed.

Gene

All of the restaurants in NE PA that make the style of Sicilian pizza I make use peanut oil. It's also commonly used in restaurants for French Fries. Never heard anybody raise an issue about it with regard to peanut allergies. I suspect that anybody with peanut allergies knows enough to ask what kind of oil is being used.

Regarding the oil used to slick the pans, Canola, as someone reported, seems right. It has a high smoke point and neutral flavor. I suspect that a restaurant would be wary of using peanut oil, at least without some kind of warning sign, for fear of accidentally serving a customer with a peanut allergy.

Gene,

Today I called the Auburn Hills Buddy's location and used steel_baker's reference to the peanut oil to see if I could at least rule out the peanut oil at Buddy's on the basis of allergic reactions. I ended up speaking with a manager, to whom I posed the allergy concern, and he said that they do not use peanut oil in their pans. I suggested that maybe other oils can pose similar allergic reactions and asked him what oil was in fact used in the pans. He said that it was vegetable oil, specifically, 85% soybean oil. He did not know whether any other oil was combined with the soybean oil as a blend. I believe that the 85% figure he mentioned refers to the fact that soybean oil constitutes 85% unsaturated fats, as noted, for example, at http://www.welch-holme-clark.com/soybean_oil_spec.html. Also, according to the smoke point chart at wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point, a refined soybean oil has a smoke point of 460 degrees F. I read recently that the conveyor oven at Auburn Hills has a bake temperature of 495 degrees F. That is why I called the Auburn Hills location in the first place.

Having spent a lot of time researching the Jet's Pizza operation over a period of several months, I couldn't help but notice a lot of similarities between their operation and Buddy's operations. Consider the following, starting with Jet's:

Jet's makes its dough fresh daily. According to this article at http://plymouth-mi.patch.com/articles/super-bowl-sunday-the-big-game-means-big-business-for-plymouth-pizzerias, a typical dough-making schedule for the square pizzas entails making the dough to be used for the day's pizzas about 3 hours prior to first service, which is typically the opening time of the store (e.g., make the dough at 9:00 AM for the noon lunch crowd when the doors open). The dough balls are put in pans, pressed out and allowed to rise. The flour used by Jet's is a proprietary blend that is bleached but not bromated. Based on information provided by another member, I estimate that the Jet's dough has a hydration of about 65%. Since Jet's has commercial coolers in its stores, the dough balls pressed into their pans can be held in the coolers and managed based on demand throughout the day. In some Jet's locations, unused dough balls at the end of the day can be held in the cooler for next day use. In other Jet's stores, apparently unused dough balls are discarded. The pans used for the Jet's pizzas appear to be blue steel pans designed especially for Jet's and supplied by an unnamed Michigan company. The oil used in the pans is corn oil. According to member boboo (Bob) at the Jet's thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg71152.html#msg71152), the Jet's square pizzas are typically baked in a Middleby Marshall conveyor oven for 8 minutes at 500 degrees F.

It wasn't until earlier today as I was researching the Buddy's oil issue that I came upon a forum at http://www.reddit.com/r/food/comments/gsbie/detroit_style_pizza_made_at_home/ in which a former worker at the Auburn Hills Buddy's store, by the forum name "lufty", reported the following about the way that the dough was made at the Auburn Hills location while he worked there and how the pizzas were otherwise prepared and baked (I have excerpted only the relevant portions):

Well, off the top of my head, here's what I can remember. Let me know if you have any further questions. It has been 3 years since I worked there (and 3 years since I ate Buddy's Pizza - I moved out of state), so I'm probably forgetting something. I worked at the Auburn Hills location before it was expanded/remodeled in 2008. I worked take out, made pizzas, salads, tended bar, waited tables, bussed, and hosted. I never worked the grill, dishwasher, or as a prep cook, but I did help prep pizza when we were running low in the evenings.

What kind of pans are you using? You don't wash those ever. They develop a film of deliciousness. They go in the conveyor belt oven at 495 degrees Farenheit for 11-12 minutes. Personally, I like it a little well done (for which its shoved back in or 2, maybe 3 more minutes. There is absolutely no corn meal in the crust, but yeast, flour, etc (not sure specifics) and mixed in the mornings in a giant mixer. The balls are weighed and placed in the pans loosely stretched and stacked up criss-cross to rise. A few hours later they are stretched out properly, using your thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge. A small pizza gets 1/2 a lb of brick cheese, NOT mozzarella (grated from a brick down to rough balls a little smaller than the kind that goes on the antipasta salad. The sauce is tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time.

To the above, I would add that the flour used by Buddy's could well be a proprietary blend. What we do know is that it is a bromated flour. It is most likely bleached also. The hydration of the dough can be quite high since, according to the report excerpted above, the dough balls go into the metal pans. So there shouldn't be handling problems. The dough used in Buddy's stores is made fresh daily, starting in the morning, with first service starting at around 11:00AM weekdays or at noon on weekends. As noted in my last post, the oil in the pans is soybean oil. From media reports, the Buddy's pans are blue steel pans, most likely procured from P.A. Products or Northern Pizza Equipment, both of whom are Michigan companies. The pans sold by these companies are of the same dimensions as the pans used by Buddy's. As with Jet's, Buddy's must have commercial coolers, and I suspect that they use their coolers as does Jet's to manage their inventory in relation to expected orders, both by day and by hours in many cases.

Based on the above analysis and reconstruction, I estimate that both Jet's and Buddy's use a fair amount of yeast. That amount should allow the dough to rise sufficiently by the time it is to be used to make the first pizzas of the day yet be able to last throughout the day with proper dough management, and especially the way that the dough formed in the pans is stored in the coolers and removed based on expected orders throughout the day. I don't know what kind of yeast Buddy's uses but if I were to pick a value to use based on the above, I would start with 0.80% for ADY (which will need rehydrating) and about 0.60% for IDY. For hydration, I would perhaps start at around 70% for the Buddy's dough. More information would be needed in order to determine the amount of dough to use, but it does help to know that about a half-pound of cheese (brick cheese at the time lufty worked for Buddy's) is/was used for a small square Buddy's pizza. I would need baked pizza weights (e.g., for a small square pizza) in order to work backwards to get values of the various dough ingredients for test purposes.

Peter

Edit (1/22/13): As of this date there is no evidence that Buddy's uses coolers.

As usual, your research is impeccable and above and beyond. And now that my blue steel pans (from P.A. Products) arrive, just today, I am looking forward to putting everyone's contributions to my original question, to use.

The only (small) contribution I can make is regarding the "85% vegetable oil." I don't know what's available around the country, but here in NYC, there are at least two brands of "85% vegetable oil" available. The most common blend is 85% canola oil and 15% olive oil, the idea being to combine olive oil's flavor with canola's high smoke point.

Mazola also makes a canola-corn oil combo called Corn Plus! (And no, I'm not excited, the exclamation point is part of the name.) I haven't been able to find the exact percentages, but 85% canola to 15% corn oil sounds about right.