In that case, I’m sorry for my earlier usage of Unholy fucktoy of gods. I won’t do it again.

Oh no, honestly it doesn’t bother me! I mean the word does, and if anybody applied it to me ever again I would probably go ballistic (sidenote: it just occurred to me what a weird phrase that is), but I actually think I’d be better off with at least some level of innocuous exposure to it. That’s kinda why I was considering using it in my nym.

It shouldn’t be a surprise on two counts. SG has spent more time in my killfile than out and when it comes to major drama (which SG seems to manufacture endlessly*), I often skim or skip over it altogether. Most of the time, drama is difficult for me, I find it draining on every level.

Okay, um…see, the reason I don’t killfile sgbm is partly that he tends to manufacture this bullshit, and I have a personal stake in the matter since I was victimized by bullies for most of my school life.

I don’t want to let sgbm get away with bullying everyone who ‘steps out of line’. I like Pharyngula because we have a community that is decidedly anti-bullying and knows not only what bullying behaviour is, but that this behaviour is unacceptable.

So when I got singled out and harassed, and even told outright by sgbm that he was see you saying this, and Jadehawk saying this:

And worse yet, I’ve caught myself not saying anything when a regular does/says something wrong, when I know for a fact that I would have said something if it had been a non-regular.

So when I got singled out and harassed, and even told outright by sgbm that he was milking an opportunity to make me look bad for all it was worth, and then see you saying this, and Jadehawk saying this…

Oh, wow. On an unrelated note, here is the official blog of the Enbridge Northern Gateway pipeline, meant to ship all of that glorious super green and ethical tar sands of oil from Alberta to the BC coast, cutting through a huge rainforest on the way.

I don’t remember who called that someone would use my nym to justify casual use of the word “bitch, but whoever you are: you get a cookie. Took longer than expected, though.

Squeee! We’re both famous, Jennifer!

and @ Cipher:

I’m glad you don’t get triggered off my ‘nym anymore. It’s funny, I’m really, really sensitive to the conflation of sex and violence, but to the extent that I anthropomorphize/deify death, she’s a kind figure. While things that lead to death may in many cases be violent, infinite life makes the present moment less valuable while making the long run of time…so very different that I can’t comprehend what it might be like. Some assert that it would be come vastly boring. Maybe, but if I’d lived a billion years might I have acquired a deeply different perspective?

Death is the corollary of birth. (Also, the tradition of “Death” ‘nyms in Pharyngula is a context lost on that poster.) So when I saw her reduce my name to “feminist fucktoy of death” it struck me just how triggering this name *might* be.

Of course, I knew it was potentially triggering when I chose it, but it didn’t hit me in the same way as it did reading that post.

But, yeah, reclaiming. Having a disability effectively desexes one in the vast majority of contexts in the US. In fact, it is perfectly legally permissible for the government to require that medical services be provided in a residential medical facility when they know that effectively all such facilities prohibit sex as a blanket policy. (see what I did there?) This gives the government to grant people a choice between ability to, say, have hygiene and food needs met OR have the choice to have sex or not as one wills.

Now, there’s been an absolute fuckton (see what I did there?) of sexual assault, sexual abuse, and rape against people with disabilities living in dis/ability prisons. A metric fuckton. I can see where the facility’s manager’s might want to prevent sexual abuse. But this is just another form of removing sexual agency.

While being a crippled top might challenge certain notions about the ability of people with disabilities, being a crippled bottom goes right to the heart of institutional fears. How can we tell that the person ordering you around is doing so with your consent? they might wonder.

Of course, they could just decline to force us into institutions and permit in-home care, which is cheaper, but they don’t in many jurisdictions. And not always the jurisdictions that you’d expect (though, yes, Georgia and Texas are problems). In Massachusetts the legislature passed a bill through at least one house (it might have been both) that made it a felony for anyone to create, possess, or transfer any sexual image (still or video) or recording depicting someone with a disability or someone over the age of 60 years old.

Bear in mind that they already had a statute that prohibited this conduct against people legally unable to consent. That’s not what we’re talking about here. If you’ve had a foot amputated or just had your 60th birthday: your spouse taking photos of you (or possessing photos that you took) that are sexual – say, if the two of you mutually made a videotape of yourselves having sex is committing a crime that would have carried almost certain mandatory jail time. If you’re each 60 years old, you *both* go to jail for victimizing each other. Married 40 years? Doesn’t matter. IQ of 550 with a cogent analysis of the benefits and risks of sex, creating sexualized images of oneself in a digital age, and the applicability of the line of cases from Griswold to Lawrence? Doesn’t matter. You can’t legally consent. You’re a disability not a person. Uck.

Note that when actual people with disabilities found out what was happening there was a massive campaign to kill the bill and it was either vetoed or died in the other house (I think the latter, but I can’t remember for sure).

And it was all about protecting us. Yeesh.

And thus there absolutely has to be a challenge to this perception of helpless asexuality, and it has to challenge for the freedom to do even things which give our brave, brave protectors the willies (see what I did there?)

Advocating for the right to be a bottom, therefore, is like advocating not merely to be a white, suburban, straight-acting, professional man who happens to be gay. It’s like advocating for the right to be gay even when that means that one’s gayness is obvious and even when the easily triggered folk get scared.

If we win the right to have sex of which the majority can approve, we haven’t won anything – even if along the way education slightly expands the sex of which the majority can approve in this historical moment and context.

Setar, I didn’t say anyone else had to utilize their killfile. I’ve gotten into plenty of arguments with SG over his harassing and bullying of others. As I said, now I’m done. I can only take so much drama and there’s never any shortage of it on Pharyngula.

I’ve never had any trouble calling out bad behaviour or stupidity or anything else on behalf of the regulars. However, in the case of SG, he seems to thrive on fighting, whereas I don’t. The best way I can describe it is that if I find myself having to deal with too much drama, it’s like I was dumped at a social gathering and forced to be an extrovert.

Okay, um…see, the reason I don’t killfile sgbm is partly that he tends to manufacture this bullshit and I have a personal stake in the matter since I was victimized by bullies for most of my school life.

Oh no, honestly it doesn’t bother me! I mean the word does, and if anybody applied it to me ever again I would probably go ballistic (sidenote: it just occurred to me what a weird phrase that is), but I actually think I’d be better off with at least some level of innocuous exposure to it. That’s kinda why I was considering using it in my nym.

Okay. It’s not a term I use often, to say the least. However, if I do use it in the future and it bothers you or triggers a loop or anything else, tell me to stop. It’s the very least I could do. ♥

sgbm, fuck off. I’m not litigating over whether you think your bullying and harassing bullshit is bullying any more than I will litigate over sexual harassment with some privileged idiot.

If anyone else wants to try and defend you I will start taking your complaints seriously. But if E-gate and the fallout have taught me anything other than basic feminism, it’s to never take the fucking bully seriously.

one of those idealized in utero babies or whatever, I think, and the headline: “Pretend I’m A Tree & Save Me”.

Reminds me of an awesome pair of houses beside an on-ramp. You could see down onto their rooves. First house had put white shingles on a dark roof to spell out “jesus lives”. Next roof had done the same, but spelled out, “So does Elvis.” They were the only two houses for miles. Must have made for great neighbours.

Crip Dyke, we both know that the reason you’re an OM ain’t your circumstances, but rather your posts.

Funny story: I totally misread that, and thought there was a “not” in between “you’re” and “an” somehow, and was really completely shocked at how you were egregiously insulting such a excellent poster.
—
Crip Dyke, I thought I’d let you know I’m digesting your post, not ignoring it :) Thanks very much for making it.
—
Caine, I definitely will. Thank you. ♥

Not sure I understood the “circumstances” reference, but thanks for the kind words. Seriously, I was ridiculously happy to be OM’d (and even just OM Nom’d). It’s one of the best things that’s happened to me in the past 12 months, though it doesn’t quite compare to meeting Ms. Crip Dyke.

Also,
From a lecture that I gave (and later published as a written work) on how removing people from the dating pool removes people from the full benefits of community, which results in fewer allies and thus is a very important part of what undermines efforts for full equality in those groups so excluded.

And so we find that our best lovers often become our best allies. In trans and crip and other communities these alliances are tremendously precious because oppression can deliberately block contact across a wall of privilege. But we have the power to reach through the wall. We can choose to imagine, What if I topped? What if I bottomed? What if I figured out the difference between topping and bottoming?

So, yeah. What you said. I employ the concepts, but I resist their limitations.

In a totally non-queer theory, non-I’m-post-moderner-than-thou way, of course.

BTW: I’ve read this piece out loud a couple times in addition to the original presentation. That line always gets the biggest laugh of the piece.

Ye, gods, yes! When I was co-raising my goddaughter that was work enough and I was living with her mother…and two other women who occasionally pitched in. 4 on 1 is the minimally reasonable ratio in raising children. If you have the power to insist on only one, by all means, use it!

But in other thoughts…

“Dark Highlander”? Hopefully he won’t force a star to go nova so he can feed off the resulting energy then, in a fit of remorse, use a laser to kill himself.

Setar, you claim: “I have a personal stake in the matter since I was victimized by bullies for most of my school life.”

If it is indeed true that you have a personal stake in the matter, then I expect you would be bothered to see someone starting a fight with someone else.

So I ask you, click this link, and tell me, who do you see starting a fight with who?

If you are not a total hypocrite, I’m sure you’ll care to make the effort to be sure you want take the side of ‘Tis Himself.

For if you are not a total hypocrite, I’m sure you wouldn’t want to support someone who started a fight.

Right?

+++++
Sally,

What’s it like to feel love when you’re an authoritarian follower and a bitter, hateful, spiteful person?

I have a hard time understanding why you’d think any of the above is contradictory, but, in any case — it seems to be the same as when I wasn’t, although it’s been a while, and memories aren’t always reliable.

If anyone else wants to try and defend you I will start taking your complaints seriously. But if E-gate and the fallout have taught me anything other than basic feminism, it’s to never take the fucking bully seriously.

Fine. I call bullshit. SG isn’t a bully. He’s a formidable opponent. Not hardly the same thing. If you don’t care for someone challenging your arguments, make better arguments.

Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays

The hell of it is? This is the one place in my life that it just didn’t occur to me that my writing would be valued for anything other than my writing.

I pounced on Janine for making this totally asinine assumption, then doubled down when she denied it. Turns out she didn’t make it at all, the cupcake that she was calling out made it and she just responded to cupcake. Me? I’d only been skimming cupcake because of cupcakes, well, cupcakeness.

I got pounced and deserved it.

And I was writing to protest discrimination from the point of view of someone targeted by that form of discrimination.

No, my standpoint isn’t what’s valued here, and I dearly love Pharyngula for that. It means when I get praise, I know it’s not a pat on the head; it means something.

And I should no better than to wade in when I’m fading. But for fucks sake. If SG makes me feel insecure in my way of thinking*, maybe my thinking isn’t so hot. Sure *hugs* are great, but there is so much going on here**.

*and you fucking do.
**That includes a lot of you. Keep harassing and hounding. It’s made me a better person.

Also, AE, recently, SG has said some very nasty shit about me and others. Things that aren’t true. That’s not a formidable opponent, it’s an asshole having a temper tantrum. So, I don’t view this whole thing the way you do, obviously. I will say that when you aren’t the one being harassed, it’s very easy to handwave that behaviour away.

With that, this will be yet another incarnation of TET I’m out of, it’s enough for me. Besides, I really do have work to do. See you all next incarnation.

Jennifer, it was I who warned you about how MRA’s would point towards your moniker as an excuse for using gendered insults. If I were just posting at Pharyngula with this moniker, I would still use insults that MRA’s tossed my way as part of it. But I am lazy and do not want to change in case I feel commenting at an other blog.

It all depends on how you feel about this. Just know that I will support you no matter what you choose. I was just happy to see an other “bitch” here. There are a fair number of us here. And how some of the bros really hate this.

What’s it like to feel love when you’re an authoritarian follower and a bitter, hateful, spiteful person?

I have a hard time understanding why you’d think any of the above is contradictory, but, in any case — it seems to be the same as when I wasn’t, although it’s been a while, and memories aren’t always reliable.

Well, I haven’t ever really been authoritarian, whether leader or follower, nor bitter, spiteful, or hateful. I’ve been chronically angry and depressed, but that’s not the same thing. It seems to me that a bitter, spiteful, hateful authoritarian would place a pretty low value on emotions like love. Would s/he perceive feeling it as some sort of weakness? I honestly don’t know. That’s why I’m asking.

Interesting to find out that you haven’t always been. Is it authoritarian or bitter/hateful that you haven’t always been? It wasn’t clear from your wording.

It all depends on how you feel about this. Just know that I will support you no matter what you choose. I was just happy to see an other “bitch” here. There are a fair number of us here. And how some of the bros really hate this.

I was introduced to internet chat forums and vigorous, take-no-prisoners style debate via http://www.heartless-bitches.com and although I never received an actual card from them, have always thought of myself as a card-carrying Heartless Bitch ever since. I second the support for anyone who chooses such a ‘nym.

*giant hugs, hot chocolate* :'( I’m heartbroken for you and Mister. He definitely had the best, most loving family a rat could ever hope for, and a great, active life, and he got to be with you til the end, at least. But those things don’t feel like big enough comforts right now, I’m sure :(
—
—
—

You don’t just mean when I pointed out that you were lying about me, do you?

*sigh*
SG, you can’t honestly think that post was what she was talking about.(Although: at the time you made the distinction that she was mistaken, not lying. That’s probably a good thing to stick with, especially since she has already admitted to clumsy quoting, which I’m not sure why it doesn’t count as sufficient admission of error for you.) Probably more along the lines of this, which I know I would take as fairly hurtful were it aimed at me.
—
Janine, I think that was actually what he was saying with the part about them being “people.” Could be wrong though.

Chas took a very bad fall a while back and has been fighting off respiratory troubles since. I’ve had him on meds and he did rally, right up until the end. I took the shot of him in the Guinness glass just yesterday. It just got to be too much combined with old age. (For a rat, 2.5 is old.) Still, little monster was supposed to live forever.

Esme & Rubin don’t know yet. Aratina Cage, yes, it was comforting to be with him at the end. I would have freaked if I had just gone to bed and found him in the morning. He did die quickly and quietly, for which I’m grateful.

oh, no, you don’t. you do not get to misappropriate my comment like that.

my complaint was about me letting regulars get away with intellectual dishonesty for the sake of in-group cohesion. it was not about not standing up to bullies. quite the opposite, since it’s partially the fear of being labeled a bully for being honest that keeps me from saying anything

for example:

Is there anyone who hasn’t established themselves as a harassing bully that wants to contest what I’ve (or, for that matter, what Caine has) said about sgbm?

how much time would it take to also become a “harassing bully” if I keep on pointing out people’s complete misrepresentation of the things SG says?

*giant hugs, hot chocolate* :’( I’m heartbroken for you and Mister. He definitely had the best, most loving family a rat could ever hope for, and a great, active life, and he got to be with you til the end, at least. But those things don’t feel like big enough comforts right now, I’m sure :(

♥ We’ll be okay. It’s the one thing that absolutely sucks about having rats, they die way too soon. Chas was a pure gift, he really was, him and Alfie.

It seems to me that a bitter, spiteful, hateful authoritarian would place a pretty low value on emotions like love. Would s/he perceive feeling it as some sort of weakness? I honestly don’t know. That’s why I’m asking.

Oh. No, I don’t think that’d be particularly common. In the aggregate, generally what you’re looking at is a tendency toward avoidance behaviors rather than approach behaviors, but this manifests as in-group loyalty/insularity. So there is more love for family and friends than the approach-oriented type feels, but less love for generic others than the approach-oriented type feels.

As for me, intellectually and aesthetically I’m big on promotion of love and empathy; I’m just not very good at it right now. I used to be a better person, as the old ~2008-2009 Sb archives showed.

I think contempt-for-weakness is pretty much the worst thing ever. My sgbm-email contains some interesting conversations on this very problem, but neither I nor my correspondents seem to have figured out what causes it. Frustratingly, it doesn’t seem to be something that’s been directly studied, as far as I can tell.

Interesting to find out that you haven’t always been. Is it authoritarian or bitter/hateful that you haven’t always been? It wasn’t clear from your wording.

Both; I was an enthusiastically blissful young person from about fifteen years ago until about ten years ago, and I was still a liberal when I arrived at Pharyngula in 2008. (2007? Probably 2008.)

Caine, your pain goes not unnoticed, and indeed is why I’m procrastinating now that my wife is speaking of a puppy.

As you all know, my old Golden Retriever is nearing the end of her courses, though the last few days she seems to have been feeling a bit better, and these are questions that have occured to me before.

I suppose the real question is, does the pain of losing them when their time comes outweigh the happiness we (and they, we would hope) get from sharing our lives with them?

I personally prefer to ‘be brave’, and say ‘no’. After all, we only miss them so hard when they’re gone because we loved them and were loved in turn so much while they were still here.

Thanks, Jadehawk. I’m really, really glad Chas & Alfie had their moments with Dust & Lint. That will always be a happy memory.

TLC:

This seems so sudden! Was there any warning?

My condolences. I hope Esme and Rubin (did I get the names right?) are doing OK.

Yes, there was warning. Between the respiratory problems and old age, I knew it could happen any time, but you know how it is, you hope they’ll just keep on going and be okay. Esme is a bit freaked, but alright at the moment. I expect she’ll freak the fuck out in a day or so. Chas was her Daddy, her mentor, her protector, all that. Rubin doesn’t know yet.

so, I’m not in any way trying to leech the sympathy that Caine needs right now, but I’ve started to see visa ads for the upcoming olympics and they focus on just the hands of various athletes.

My brother was someone who was really and truly going to go to the Olympics. He was an elite competitor in the world of US collegiate Olympics as a sophomore. As a junior he was the #1 gymnast on a top 5 program… right up until he found out that a malformed bone process was rubbing against one of his major tendons – in his shoulder, and though he was good at all the events, he was especially amazing at the rings. The rings just created too much stress. He was told that he’d already worn a hole through the tendon and that further gymnastics could cause it to snap, leaving him with majorly reduced function.

He was so good that when I watched the Olympics, I (as a non-gymnast) would be, “Humph. He won’t score that high, I’ve seen M- do all the same things just as well.” Maybe there were deficiencies in his abilities, but they were beyond my notice. So when he found out mid-season during the first year he had a real shot at placing in the all-around at nationals that his career was up and over, it was pretty crushing.

It’s not that he never had any joy after that, but he never really recovered either. He died of suicide 3 years ago. Now every time I see this ad I’m thinking of him.

It’s not immediate, and I almost didn’t mention it because of Chas, but however distant it is, I still very much miss my brother and I found it surprisingly hard to look at those photos of strong, chalked hands.

I think the pain of loss is in some ways a measure of how great a time we had (or expected to have) with the one who died. Something like: The more positively they affected our lives, the more painful it is to realize they are gone. So that kind of pain isn’t all that bad (as long as it doesn’t trigger or exacerbate a depression or worse).

:(
*hugs to Crip Dyke* I’m so sorry to hear of that. Although I can’t begin to imagine how must that must hurt, I can understand how those commercials would be hard for you to see.
And don’t worry, we’ve got sympathy to spare.

It’s not that he never had any joy after that, but he never really recovered either. He died of suicide 3 years ago. Now every time I see this ad I’m thinking of him.

It’s not immediate, and I almost didn’t mention it because of Chas, but however distant it is, I still very much miss my brother and I found it surprisingly hard to look at those photos of strong, chalked hands.

Oh my. This must be a difficult time for you, to say the least. I imagine the feelings evoked are complex. I am so sorry for your loss.

Please, don’t ever hold back on something like this (or anything else, for that matter) because of me. Grief is grief and it is a tiny bit lighter to bear for sharing it.

Caine: I’m still trying to work with her a bit. Lately she’s been showing a few signs of increased curiousity and coming out of her nest. It’s hard to work with her too much because if she gets loose in the house, that’s pretty much it. too many hiding spots.

Caine: I’m still trying to work with her a bit. Lately she’s been showing a few signs of increased curiousity and coming out of her nest. It’s hard to work with her too much because if she gets loose in the house, that’s pretty much it. too many hiding spots.

That’s great! I understand that “oh gods, if she gets loose” paranoia all too well. I never had to worry about that with Chas & Alfie, but if Rubin were to get out of my studio, I’d probably never see him again. Did you ever name her?

I’m tearing up here reading the comments and thinking about my old cat who died at age 17. To have had the companionship, the funny moments when a personality showed through and the affection. It’s worth it.

Nope Caine, ain’t named her yet. Feels weird trying to think of a name when I don’t even really ‘know’ her yet. I’m tempted to try this ‘forced socialization’ thing, but I have a feeling she has no problem biting if I do…

TLC, I know that I presume, but know that I think you got the sense of how much space to give her, so… my maybe worthless advice: (1) set up the space of interaction, first, so “escaping” is of no ultimate consequence and (2) employ PPE (gloves, at the least). Give it a chance, but take care.

—

PS I tell you that I wouldn’t have advised this were it not that I imagine you will back off if you sense that’s what to do.

I’m tempted to try this ‘forced socialization’ thing, but I have a feeling she has no problem biting if I do…

I’ve been bitten, more than once. It’s to be avoided, rat bites hurt like hell and can do damage, depending on where you get bit.

Does she let you pick her up at all? If she does, you might want to try forced socialization. It’s difficult, keeping a rat in your hands for 20 minutes straight, but it does help a lot.

If you don’t want to try it, I suggest the standard bribes – most all of them food. Ice cream or chocolate, bones (rats can have chicken bones), bits of meat, mac & cheese (a *huge* fave among the rat set), pizza (also a fave), eggs, etc. Calcium chews tend to be a big hit. Also, fresh salad at least a couple times a week. I get ours Fresh Farms Organic Spring Mix.

You might want to try brief shoulder rides, too. It might also help to take a T-shirt you’ve worn all day and sacrifice it to her nest. The things we do… :D

Oh – you can make a little harness out of pipe cleaners to attach to a light leash if you’re really worried about her getting away from you. (Rat harnesses are actually made, but why spend the money when you don’t have to? Besides, they cost a ridiculous amount of money.)

Caine
She’s a great cat. It’s amazing the way she really, really wants to be around people. She’s a rescue and all that’s known of her is that she was found half starved. Kind of should expect her to be mortally afraid and mistrusting of people but she’s just the other way round.

+++++

It may also have to do with the fact that I’m fat and food policing is something I expect to happen regardless. “Do you think you need that?” may as well be ringing in my ears every day.

I’m always slightly amused that. When talking about ethical concerns and environmental issues this comes from people on the internet who own computers and smartphones and all that stuff and who most likely take hot showers as well. I mean, do you really need those?

I got a different kind of policing. “Don’t you think you should eat something? You should eat. You need to eat something. Eat! Of course you have to eat breakfast, what’s wrong with you? You’re going to the doctor!”

I admit to having done that to #1. My excuse is that I was
A) concerned for her health. She is underweight. A simple belly bug landed her in hospital since there are no reserves she could drain.
B) I was afraid of people investigating me for parental neglect.
I’ve grown out of it, mostly. She either eats or doesn’t. No dinner means no dessert, no lunch means no snacks until dinner. And I’ve learned that there’ll be days she hardly eats at all and then there’ll be days she won’t stop eating. Her weight/height ration stays the same, though…

+++++re: circling
My problem is that I supply the opinions of others “perfectly” myself, only making the mistake that I never let those monologues actually become dialogues to find out what they would actually say.

++++

Beatrice, in case you missed it earlier, thanks for posting that link to Jason’s blog in the DJG thread.

That’s the thing about Jason: He regularly fucks something up, but he also has the ability to come around again. That’s why I just like him.

David
Yay, So I’ll call my aunt and make sure I have a bed or three

+++++

one of those idealized in utero babies or whatever, I think, and the headline: “Pretend I’m A Tree & Save Me”.

The obvious answer is pictures of tree stumps…

+++++
Things I hate:
those small plastic thingies they use for tacking socks together

Something I hate more: Last night #1 informed me about the importance of nail polish. I don’t think she was very happy with the “make-up is for grown-ups” reply I gave her. But I’m afraid that in this time and place I need to enforce a zero-tolerance policy. 15 years ago we could have had fun painting our finger and toenails all colours of the rainnbow ONE AFTERNOON, but now the only exception will be carnival.

++++++re: omlettes
Now I want German pancakes

+++++

I wasn’t talking about Germany. In Germany, intercity trains that are 30 minutes late are a catastrophe of inhuman proportions.

And sadly common. the worst thing is that slower trains will for the faster trains to arrive so people in there will get thier connection. This does not apply the other way round which once left me stranded at a godforsaken station (Bad Kreuznach) in the middle of the night: my slow train had left late because it had waited for an Intercity to arrive. The fast train I was supposed to catch left on time, of course.
But yes, that’s a cliché that’s mostly true: Germans are puntual. Being late is considered a form of disrespect, because you take your time more important than mine (this only holds true if at least one side is puntual)

+++++
What is the little one doing with her sister’s skying trousers and how did she get them? Do I want to know that?

Audley
Only wait until breastfeeding-dementia sets in ;)

Deflouncing momentarily. Chas just died in my arms. He was 2.5 years old. I have to cry now. Reflouncing.

Caine, my best friend, whom I’ve occasionally mentioned and who has heard me squee over your rat and dog pictures/stories occasionally and has had them sent to him because they were so cute I had to share, sends his condolences as well. He sounded very sad.
—
Ice cream is awesome.
—
I got on a Rock Band 2 kick to follow the DDR one last night. I have no idea, but I apparently just really, really want to play loud video games late at night.

Caine,
so sorry for your loss! *hugs* Animals provide so much companionship and soothing company.

Katherine,
don’t be afraid! And remember, if you don’t click, look for another therapist. With a therapist, feeling safe and having trust is so important, it’s absolutely vital you pick one who instills just that.

Crip dyke,
*hugs*. There is enough consolation for everyone at TET.
________________________________________

Today is tolerable.
Yesterday evening I found out I had messed up on my statistics by using the wrong data set (missing the data of one participant). I’m such a huge idiot and now I have to correct everything, possibly including my poster. Fuckity fuck. I’m already behind on my dissertation thanks to the breakup, I didn’t need that on top of it.
I also found out that the statistician I had been working with is on maternity leave. She didn’t notify me, and now I have pressing matters to discuss and a new statistician that doesn’t know the data. Cripes.
The exboyfriend did call on friday, btw, to assure me he’d take care of the flat. He also said he wanted to talk soon. This shit stresses me out. I don’t know whether he wants to get back together or not.
Problem being, this is how he works:http://cheezburger.com/6280544512
And anxiety leads to him being unsure of his feelings for me. We’ve been through this twice. And while I desperately want him back and us to fix everything I can’t do this crap again. He’ll need to work on this, probably including therapy. And if he doesn’t want to do that… I’m not sure if I can just send him away, even though I should.
Fuck my love life.

Caine, I’m sorry about Chas. Never easy, even when you know it’s coming eventually.
.
Crip Dyke, that’s … well I don’t have the words for what that is. Fuck. I’m so very sorry.
.
Kitty, bon courage for tomorrow! I hope it gets off to a really good start.

Ex bred chihuahuas. They are genetically fucked up, so they tend to die frequently and of weird causes.
Had our favourite one, Cate, a multiple championship winner blabla, fall over with a stroke one day a few years ago, we took her to the Vet hospital, CPR, intubation, the lot, she died of course, duh. I tend to try not to get too attached to animals now, enough pain and hurt to be gotten from human interaction.

old man jenkins (ha!) is merely asking people who misspoke or lied about things he said to admit it and set the record straight.
Seems a reasonable request to me.
Is persistence in pursuing a reasonable request ‘bullying’?

Wife and I got to go out to dinner last night. Went to a Wolfgang Puck Express and the food was a good 8 out of 10. Best of all, we had coupons, so the meal only cost $10 out of $25!

This entire week has been one of going backwards. Every fucking project I start working on on the computer has gone backwards. Now, I am very careful with both my writing and my graphics to save to new files after every major change, but, with the graphics especially, every thing I do makes the fucking thing worse. Luckily it is only a portion of my job and my boss is sorta pseudo understanding.

I almost stopped reading at the omelet… because it’s an utterly bizarre idea to put cheese into an omelet.

Cheese omelettes are excellent. Add some brie to a ham and sweet onion omelette. Or cheddar to one with peppers and onions. Or (never mind. the list could go on and on and on).

My omelettes have the ingredients mixed in. Then I sprinkle more cheese over the eggs when they are almost set and put the pan under a broiler to brown the top. Works nicely.

On that note (kind of), does anyone have any suggestions for a decent digital kitchen timer?

Most microwave ovens have a digital timer that can be operated with the microwave turned off. You say you want extra features? This’ll not only be a timer, but will heat things as well.

Mr Darkheart has finally felt the DF move!

He giggled. :)

Fantastic. I remember not just feeling the foetal movement but, later in Wife’s pregnancy, actually seeing it. That is some weird shit.

But I’m squee! The transit of Venus is on the 5th/6th!

Ain’t gonna happen. The transit budget got cut so we can give another tax break to the job creators and their pet Mercedes Benz’.

Deflouncing momentarily. Chas just died in my arms. He was 2.5 years old. I have to cry now. Reflouncing.

Hugs and chocolate to you, Caine. You have my sympathy.

It’s not that he never had any joy after that, but he never really recovered either. He died of suicide 3 years ago. Now every time I see this ad I’m thinking of him.

The ways that our memory is accessed can be strange. Whether it is smell, a particular activity, a particular body part, taste, feeling, whatever. Stay safe when you start randomly accessing your memories. Every time I see an advert telling people not to drink and drive it brings back memories of my sister — the memories are no longer a sledgehammer (she was killed in 1988) but more of a jeweler’s hammer now. Anyway, I think I understand and sympathize.

I was going to write a “why i wont be attending the GAC 2014″ post a la Rebecca, but i may wait until tomorrow. More people on blogs should be aware of the “Preussische Beschwerdeordnung”. Let it sit for 24 hours, then reconsider.

Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays

My divorce was from someone who seems similar to me to what you describe… with the added benefit of **talking about things** provoking anxiety, thus avoidance (big time!) and guilt. There was *no talking* because that might lead to change, which she wanted, but which she couldn’t tolerate b/c *change*!!!

Oy. So I never knew how bad things were for her. It’s not that I wasn’t unhelpful to her, but I couldn’t possibly be helpful *enough* with the info I had. And, worse, her withdrawal/avoidance made things very difficult for me and she didn’t like it when I got sad and/or depressed so there were feedback effects. Oy.

Anyway, I love her a ton, but there’s no way we’ll ever be together again. I don’t know if the same is true for you and your ex, but the cycle you’re on sounds familiar and it was very destructive in my life.

Also, barely a year and a half after we first separated and a bit over a year from when we really called it quits I met Ms Crip Dyke. This relationship is stunningly different from every other one I’ve had. My best previous relationship we had the communication and teamwork, but we had very different approaches to relationships. She got security through never making promises (can’t be disappointed) and I got it through making assumptions and promises explicit. Did. Not. Work. Other relationships were short or I was just young – things might have worked out with a bit more experience to make us realize that assumptions were just that, but maybe they would have faltered on other rocks.

In any way, the point is that I’d had good relationships. Real relationships. But they had real and fatal flaws. I was so sad, so devastated over the divorce (and even more over how it was handled) that I really didn’t think I’d get a chance to have a real partnership.

I’ve got one now. It’s loving. It’s amazing to me. The communication is fantastic and we each desire the other and her kids warm my heart. Because we can speak about our assumptions, needs, and desires, I know that we want the same things out of a relationship. I also know that where we differ (such as where we might prefer to live), it’s something about which we can talk and over which the differences don’t seem now to be insurmountable.

There’s good stuff out there keenacat. You have a lot invested, and it’s sad to see something end. But this is either going to turn into a new relationship since his behavior is not tenable over the long term…or you’ll someday have exactly the relationship you want with someone else.

Of course, people in love are insufferably optimistic, so take this with a shaker of salt. But I’m wishing you the best.

I’m so sorry, Crip Dyke. From the story you gave, this will be the first Olympics without your brother? And the one before this was the one where all the hopes of competing were already gone? It will definitely be a difficult summer – please vent all you need to.

Caine – it was really clear how much you loved Chas. I’m so sorry.

keenacat – can you tell him to email you instead? That way the timing of when you deal with it is totally under your control. You can tell him that he can write it all down now to get it out of his system, but that you’re on your own schedule as to when you’ll read it. You don’t owe him anything regarding this breakup. He started it, he can deal with not getting to make you take care of his emotions. His “I want to talk now” is not your problem. Because even if it’s about him wanting to get together, you need a lot of time to decide what you’d need from him to even consider it. You now know that he’s the type of person who can and would leave you, and that really changes what you would need from any future relationship with him.

Katherine – yay! Just remember, you can always run screaming from the office in the middle of the visit if it gets too difficult. ;) Just keeping that mental image in mind might help make it seem less daunting.

Katherine
My good thoughts are with you
You’ve come such a long way already.

Keenacat
What you tell about your ex sounds like he really needs to get his shit together before he can get together with anybody.
And it’s not very loving and caring to do this three times to somebody whom he knows to suffer from depression already.
Second what carlie said: Tell him to write you a mail.
Also follow rorschach and the preußische Beschwerdeordnung.
(((big hugs)))

++++
Hmm, sometimes I think that Rebecca Watson gets her priorities wrong: At the start of her talk she warns parents about the fakt that she curses. I’d be rather more concerned about the talk about sexual violence*
*It’s something you need to cover, but at the right moment, at the right age, with the right words.

I just showed Chas to Esme. She climbed on him, groomed him and nipped him gently in several places, trying to get a reaction. She’s in my shirt now.

♥

Chas & Alfie had their moments with Dust & Lint

…want… …photos… …so badly…

It’s not that he never had any joy after that, but he never really recovered either. He died of suicide 3 years ago. Now every time I see this ad I’m thinking of him.

:-( *hug* *sweet chai*

I’m tearing up here reading the comments and thinking about my old cat who died at age 17. To have had the companionship, the funny moments when a personality showed through and the affection. It’s worth it.

*hug* *lemongrass/rooibos tea*

░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

FYI, I do it too. And worse yet, I’ve caught myself not saying anything when a regular does/says something wrong, when I know for a fact that I would have said something if it had been a non-regular. Catching myself at this was one of the original reasons I stopped being part of the social life on Pharyngula.

*lightbulb moment*

Ah. Well, I interpreted “brutal, vicious honesty” more loosely. I come from a family where passive-aggression is an art form, and to me it’s brutally honest to say “you’re wrong” straight up than couching it in vague language like “Hmm, I don’t think I agree, hrm, maybe you don’t have that right”. […]

I admit, part of what drove me away from Shakesville was the constant drumbeat of “you screwed up, you screwed up, you screwed up”. It didn’t feel conducive to building confidence and rapport. It’s really hard to disassociate “you’re correcting me on what I said” with “you don’t like me”, at least in my head. It’s why I hated school so much; grades became personal attacks. Maybe there’s some of that at play.

That’s… infuriating, that there are families that bring children up in such a way.

Instead of posing yourself as untrustworthy, maybe it should be more like you’re not yet worthy of trust? (That sounded more like a distinction in my head.) That’s how most people treat strangers. Just because I keep you at arm’s length doesn’t mean I think you’re gonna stab me. The latter takes active suspicion on my part rather than passive defensiveness.

*like*

Here in midwestern USA, an omelet is beaten-up eggs gently-fried into a disc and folded over cheese and other stuff. If it doesn’t have a filling—almost always including cheese—it’s just a bad job of making scrambled eggs.

I think you misread me due to my usual carelessness resulting in ambiguity, because I overestimated your acumen.

No, you overestimated the degree to which people think like each other.

Did you grow up alone, or with siblings or the like? I wonder if people in our general region of the autism spectrum need to grow up with different people to figure this out to any large extent.

Given that ‘it’ refers to my claim

See, I thought it referred to his suggestion that others, if feeling emotionally ambiguous about him, should regard him as an enemy. I thought it meant you thought at first he was joking/exaggerating and now think he’s serious about that.

Where did we (as a culture) get this idea that it’s acceptable to be late?

In, like, France, it seems to be considered rude to show up on time* when being invited for dinner – it makes you look hungry, if not outright greedy.

Politeness is a lot more arbitrary than you seem to think. That’s why I hate it so much. All of it.

* I don’t think I ever did… but I definitely planned to… :-)

Do we think that we’re really so important that no one will mind when we interrupt whatever’s going on and that people are willingly going to wait for us without getting frustrated?

You’re implying that when people are late, it’s their fault, not attributable to external circumstances.

Because when it’s not their fault… “interrupt”? Why were you so inconsiderate to begin without them? Are they so unimportant to you that you don’t care whether they’re even present? If so, why do you get angry when they’re not showing up on time?

Of course, my own issues are showing through in the above paragraph. I’m a bit too used to not mattering to people.

And don’t take it personally. The attitude you describe is normal in this culture.

“The wildest claim of all is, paradoxically, the one the authors chose for the title of the book. The evidence that women don’t ask consists of: one unpublished survey of Carnegie Mellon graduates, one study of 74 Carnegie Mellon students playing Boggle for money, one internet survey with loaded questions, and a pile of anecdotes handpicked by authors on a mission to prove that women don’t ask.”

*epic headdesk*

That’s a good lesson in science theory. I had taken for granted that women don’t ask, because it simply makes sense: women are, more often than men, socialized to shut up, avoid conflict, and make me a sammich, while everyone is socialized to despise aggressive hags but to have no problem with men behaving the exact same way. Turns out that making sense doesn’t make it true!

Also, I had taken for granted that women not asking wasn’t the only reason for the pay gap. Turns out some media reception of the book apparently did claim it was the only reason – and thus blamed the victims.

“Where does the number ‘half a million dollars’ come from? Did someone conduct a survey and find out that women who negotiate their starting salary end up making half a million dollars more than women who don’t?

Nope. The number comes from a thought experiment. In other words, the authors just made it up.”

AAAARRRRRGNNNNN!!!

“Where a boss can even punish a woman who dares to be aggressive by sending her to Bully Broads, a program that teaches women to ‘speak more slowly and softly, hesitate or stammer when presenting their ideas, use self-deprecating humor, and even allow themselves to cry at meetings’.

I know the authors know this, because every one of those examples comes from Women Don’t Ask. Yet somehow that didn’t stop them from presenting a meaningless thought experiment. Twice. (The second time, the man gets $2,120,731 more than the woman.)”

I’m out of words.

*goes and gets a sword and jumps into a pond*

:-D

Do they really think that someone who is passing through on their way to get an abortion will think, “hey, that’s right. My mother chose not to have an abortion. Guess I shouldn’t do it either.” (Where do I put the question mark in that sentence?)

You omit the period from the end of the quote and put the question mark behind the quote! :-)

I wasn’t talking about Germany. In Germany, intercity trains that are 30 minutes late

What, that HAPPENS!?!?! *running away screaming*

For a talk or seminar or something, early is required

In Germany and Austria, almost everything academic begins with the academic quarter, means, about 15 minutes later than scheduled. An official Austrian university hour has 45 minutes; a block course of 4 hours lasts 3 hours. This is often made clear by writing “c.t.”, cum tempore (Latin: “with time”), as in “begin at 12 ct”; if you actually mean the time you write, the usual solution is “s.t.”, sine tempore, “without time”.

Clearly, you’re the one who’s wrong.

Probably due to Coriolis effects.

:-D

I wish I didn’t hate my paper so much. Otherwise I think I’d really like it.

:-) Do explain.

* But which are pretty evident; e.g. VP refers to a verb phrase.

How many people have ever encountered the term verb phrase? I have, but only in linguistics contexts on the Internet, and I’m still not sure what it means (because I haven’t bothered to really look it up).

Yes; I often find myself just trying to agree with you all and silence dissent in my mind because I fear getting on your bad side. I should really stop that.

+ 1

in the case of SG, he seems to thrive on fighting

My impression is he 1) simply can’t stop (SIWOTI syndrome); 2) has been through such loads of shit that he’s used to feeling like he’s fighting for his life.

Reminds me of an awesome pair of houses beside an on-ramp. You could see down onto their rooves. First house had put white shingles on a dark roof to spell out “jesus lives”. Next roof had done the same, but spelled out, “So does Elvis.” They were the only two houses for miles. Must have made for great neighbours.

Awesome.

Mr Darkheart has finally felt the DF move!

He giggled. :)

:-)

Is there anyone who hasn’t established themselves as a harassing bully that wants to contest what I’ve (or, for that matter, what Caine has) said about sgbm?

What exactly? Everyone has said so many different things, and I haven’t kept track.

That he’s a bully? To me he always seems desperate and, at worst, obsessive-compulsive – not casual or sadistic like a bully, and I was bullied a lot, too.

What I can say for sure is that the combination of the two of you is one of the worst possible. You’re very emotional; on PET, you freak out every day (over things that deserve outrage, mind you – you just flip out more than other people). sgbm routinely says things that cannot help cause outrage (unless maybe if they’re parsed with autistic detachment), and unlike many people he makes no attempt to cause as little outrage as possible. Put the two of you together, and I’ll pull the fume hood window way down, stay way back, put my fingers in my ears and open my mouth.

To be crude and blunt (and hopefully less ambiguous), it was an euphemistic allusion to your being a crippled dyke

*lightbulb moment* I had never made the connection between “crip” and “crippled”. I had simply treated “crip” as meaningless or of unknown meaning.

I think contempt-for-weakness is pretty much the worst thing ever.

Seconded.

David
Yay, So I’ll call my aunt and make sure I have a bed or three

:-) :-) :-)

I have room, too, and a total of 2 air mattresses. Only 1 sleeping bag, though, but 2 extra bedsheets.

“Really a great rat” is a better epitaph than a lot of humans have earned.

Heh.

keenacat – can you tell him to email you instead? That way the timing of when you deal with it is totally under your control. You can tell him that he can write it all down now to get it out of his system, but that you’re on your own schedule as to when you’ll read it. You don’t owe him anything regarding this breakup. He started it, he can deal with not getting to make you take care of his emotions. His “I want to talk now” is not your problem. Because even if it’s about him wanting to get together, you need a lot of time to decide what you’d need from him to even consider it. You now know that he’s the type of person who can and would leave you, and that really changes what you would need from any future relationship with him.

Keenacat
What you tell about your ex sounds like he really needs to get his shit together before he can get together with anybody.
And it’s not very loving and caring to do this three times to somebody whom he knows to suffer from depression already.
Second what carlie said: Tell him to write you a mail.
Also follow rorschach and the preußische Beschwerdeordnung.
(((big hugs)))

++++
Hmm, sometimes I think that Rebecca Watson gets her priorities wrong: At the start of her talk she warns parents about the fakt that she curses. I’d be rather more concerned about the talk about sexual violence*
*It’s something you need to cover, but at the right moment, at the right age, with the right words.

Caine: Hugs and more to you and the household. I’ll raise a glass for Chas tonight. Thanks to you posting tibits about him and the crew, I now understand why rats really do make such fun pets. RIP Chas.
————————————————–

Keencat: Wow. Just . . . wow. On the very slim chance he decides he wants to get back together, I think you should decline. No, don’t worry about him pitching a fit – you KNOW now what you’d be in for if you said yes: It’d really just be the same old, same old stuff you’ve been dealing with already. Right now, get yourself sorted out. If you must talk to him for some reason, be civil, as hard as that may be. Be civil, and cut it short if things start going in a direction you’re not at ease with.

However, this comes from someone who hasn’t had such a horrible breakup yet, so here’s some salt for you.
—————————————————

I’m staying out the whole SGBM thing for now. Limited exchanges with him and the killfiling leave me thinking I don’t have enough background to say anything substantial yet.
—————————————————

Audley: Let us know his reaction when he sees DF move. Many seem to find that first moment to be very WTF. Makes sense, it’s not every day of life that people see a foot make a print from inside someone’s body.

Jadehawk, are you still awake or already awake? And, either way, why aren’t you visibly tired?

(I’ll probably take a nap now. Dark weather, stayed up too late again as documented in the previous page of this subthread, and I’ve at least eaten soup now. Primitive onion soup; not outright good, but entirely edible.)

Sorry to butt in on this thread, but I’m wondering if anyone here can help me track down a blog post that PZ made several months back. It was countering the charge that there’s much more money to be made in climate change science if you’re on the ‘yes, it’s happening’ side.

PZ showed some figures that contradicted this. IIRC they showed more broadly where the real money is in science these days, and that climate change was a very poor relation.

I’m having trouble finding the post though – any help would be gratefully received.

Keenacat: Don’t do it. Don’t take your ex back, at least not until you’ve both had a lot of therapy. His action was not a fluke. He’ll do it again and probably at the worst possible moment. He needs to find a better way to cope with anxiety and you need to find a way to not be tempted to take him back at status quo every time he leaves. (Caution: Close family member was in a similar relationship dynamic at one point and my advice may be colored by my feelings about that relationship…take with appropriate dose of NaCl.)

More proof that Mitt Romney is, at best, clueless when it comes to the rights of minorities and women. My bet is that he still doesn’t think he did anything wrong when he trashed an affirmaative action hiring policy for state government in Massachusetts.

Mitt Romney scuttled the Massachusetts government’s long-standing affirmative action policies with a few strokes of his pen on a sleepy holiday six months after he became governor.

No news conference or news release trumpeted Romney’s executive order on Bunker Hill Day, June 17, 2003, in the deserted Statehouse. But when civil rights leaders, black lawmakers and other minority groups learned of Romney’s move two months later, it sparked a public furor.

Romney drew criticism for cutting the enforcement teeth out of the law and rolling back more than two decades of affirmative action advances.

Civil rights leaders said his order stripped minorities, women, disabled people and veterans of equal access protections for state government jobs and replaced them with broad guidelines. They complained Romney hadn’t consulted them before making the changes, snubbing the very kind of inclusion he professed to support….

“I believe our nation is at its best when people are evaluated as individuals,” he said in a 2008 Washington Post issues survey. “I do support encouraging inclusiveness and diversity, and I encourage the disclosure of the numbers of women and minorities in top positions of companies and government — not to impose a quota but to shine light on the situation.”…

Alkins [Leonard Alkins, head of NAACP Boston branch] said Romney never seemed to grasp that the aim of the state’s affirmative action policies was to protect people who were wrongfully denied equal rights in the workplace.

“I felt that the governor was out of touch,” said Alkins. “He was very uncomfortable with the issue of race and how you would address issues such as affirmative action.”…

George Pyle wrote a dood essay discussing why faith should not determine public policy — excerpts below.

…churches don’t have religious freedom. People do. And people remain free not to use contraception. Just as people remain free to refuse other kinds of medical treatment — say, blood transfusions — if their conscience — guided by, say, the faith known as Jehovah’s Witness — tells them to.

But there is no lawsuit right now challenging government-mandated or government-subsidized coverage of transfusions. Is that just because there are more Catholics than Witnesses? Or is it because modern civilization, mostly, knows that both contraception and transfusions are bare-bones basic, part of any health care plan worthy of the name?

Or because the full emancipation of women, possible only with universal access to contraception, is the greatest single step ever taken toward the elimination of poverty? The Catholic Church, like most churches, is heard to stand against poverty. Straddling that inconsistency has gotta hurt….

I’m pretty sure that’s what started this whole business– someone pointed out that the DF is “quickening”, so Carlie pointed out that I’m carrying THE ONLY ONE. :D

Caine:

Chas just died in my arms.

Oh no! *love*

I’m going to second John:

(I believe you; I’m convinced that rats are ‘people’ no less than are dogs, they’re just not humans)

I know how much you loved him and I know how special he was to you. I’m so sorry to hear that he passed.

TLC:

Feels weird trying to think of a name when I don’t even really ‘know’ her yet.

Yeah… that’s how we ended up with a cat named “Pickles”.

In hindsight, she is definitely not a “Pickles”.

(Although, you might not want to wait *too* long. That’s how Mr Darkheart ended up with a rat named “Rat”– he was was waiting until a name popped, and suddenly he got to the point where Rat would only respond to, well, “Rat”.)

Giliell:

Only wait until breastfeeding-dementia sets in ;)

Wait, what?

Why did no one tell me this stuff before I got all preggers? Harrumph.

Oggie:

Happy Friday, one and all!

And a happy Sunday to you, good sir!

Most microwave ovens have a digital timer that can be operated with the microwave turned off.

Yeah, I know.

I keep my timers on the fan hood above my stove for easy access– the way that my long, narrow kitchen is set up means that the fridge is inconveniently far away from food prep/cooking surfaces. Here’s the kicker: my microwave is on top of the fridge because I so rarely use it. (Defrosting meat, very occasionally. Sometimes reheating cups of coffee. I’ve been honestly thinking about just throwing the damned useless thing out.)

I remember not just feeling the foetal movement but, later in Wife’s pregnancy, actually seeing it.

He’s already wigging himself out in anticipation of that. Poor guy. :D

David M:

Politeness is a lot more arbitrary than you seem to think.

Oh no, I totally get this. It changes from region to region here in the States, too– the issue of what constitutes “on time” is different for a New Yorker and a person from Georgia.

But: 1) chronic lateness is a pet peeve of mine* and 2) when in doubt, aim for the invited time.

*I’m going to go ahead and blame all of the people I’ve worked with who can’t be bothered to show up to their job on time.

You’re implying that when people are late, it’s their fault, not attributable to external circumstances.

Come on, David. I know you read my whole post and you know that I specifically addressed this concern:

(Getting held up (traffic or whatever) is, of course, totally excusable.)

I’m not so impatient that I don’t grok that there will always be unavoidable circumstances that will cause people to be late.

Why were you so inconsiderate to begin without them? Are they so unimportant to you that you don’t care whether they’re even present?

We weren’t discussing a one-on-one situation or a small group where it would be natural to wait, you know.

In a party situation (or a bridal shower, which was what Nutmeg was asking about), the hostess will inevitably start the festivities before every guest has arrived. Depending on what has been planned out, this might not be a big deal (if you’re starting with cocktails and whatnot), but if there are activities planned, the late people may very well be interrupting.

Since the original question was about when it was polite to arrive and I already said that unplanned holdups are totes understandable, I would think that you could cut me some slack.

Of course, my own issues are showing through in the above paragraph. I’m a bit too used to not mattering to people.

Let us know his reaction when he sees DF move. Many seem to find that first moment to be very WTF. Makes sense, it’s not every day of life that people see a foot make a print from inside someone’s body

In Switzerland if a train is 2 minutes late everyone says, “It must have come from Germany.” Because the Germans are the always late slobs who never do anything with any precision in the Swiss world view.

For an American, OTOH, trains that RUN, go to useful places, and cost less than your monthly rent are such a miracle that we rarely complain about a mere 30 minute delay.

Yesterday evening I found out I had messed up on my statistics by using the wrong data set (missing the data of one participant). I’m such a huge idiot and now I have to correct everything, possibly including my poster. Fuckity fuck. I’m already behind on my dissertation thanks to the breakup, I didn’t need that on top of it.
I also found out that the statistician I had been working with is on maternity leave. She didn’t notify me, and now I have pressing matters to discuss and a new statistician that doesn’t know the data. Cripes.

FWIW, this is a pretty standard set of problems getting in the way of completing a project. Two people involved with personal issues, a bit of the data entered slightly wrong, a correction to a conference proceedings…we’ve all been there. I’m sorry things didn’t go more smoothly, but don’t panic. No one will think you’re an idiot for this mistake (with the possible exception of yourself.) Everyone has done it.

Oh, and Audley? Boy was watching one of the Aliens movies. I walked in just as the larvae came out through a guys chest. You might want to avoid thinking about those movies while you are pregnant. So don’t read what I just wrote as it will remind you.

Why did no one tell me this stuff before I got all preggers? Harrumph.

You didn’t ask :)
I guess nobody told you about lochia either *muahaha*

David
*hot Glückstee*
Thanks for the offer, but be aware that I travel with The Passion of Christ and The Wrath of God (aka #1 and the little one).
I have a big fat bunch of family in Berlin who have invited me so often (it’s a shame I haven’t been there in 4 years) that I really need to get on their nerves :)

++++

Oh, I had an idea.
Since DJ Grothe seems to think that sexual harassment is an extraordinary claim that must be met with skepticism, maybe women could mail him their weekly update, you know like those women who left their menstruational update on the FB wall of that conservative guy….

For an American, OTOH, trains that RUN, go to useful places, and cost less than your monthly rent are such a miracle that we rarely complain about a mere 30 minute delay.

Oh my lord, this.

Here’s my frustrating train story:
I used to take the train from upstate NY to visit Mr Darkheart when he was at school in Cleveland. It was supposed to be an 8.5 hour train ride (which is roughly the amount of time that it takes to drive that distance), but there was one trip where it took 14 hours. Plus the damned thing was overbooked, so I didn’t have a seat. I ended up spending the night in the smoking car (do they even have those any more?) drinking Red Dog with some lovely gentlemen from New York City.

Part of the problem in the US is that passenger trains must give way to freight trains. You get a heavy night for shipping and, well, travelers are royally screwed.

Oggie:

Boy was watching one of the Aliens movies. I walked in just as the larvae came out through a guys chest. You might want to avoid thinking about those movies while you are pregnant. So don’t read what I just wrote as it will remind you.

:D

It’s not a problem. SyFy has been playing them non-stop and we watched Alien: Resurrection last night. I’m not the one that’s wigged out. XD

Giliell @ #129: I know the feeling re: old cats. Mine came to me somewhere around 11ish (at the youngest, we’re thinking likely 14.) and she’s this amazing, snuggly, gentle, weird thing. Maybe something like 17 now (or 14 at the lowest estimate), mostly toothless, diabetic, asthmatic, and adored. But I worry about her, because however you look at it, she’s older than dust for a cat.

How old is #1 (who wishes nail polish)? I’m a big nail polish fan myself, and it’s definitely become a major thing in fashion of late.

Thanks so much for your sympathy last night/this morning. I wasn’t ready to even say thanks last night, but I felt glad to read your comments both last night and this morning.

@carlie:

Yes, it’s the first Olympics without him. I used to call him round Olympics time until I figured out that he wasn’t interested in analyzing who’s good and why. He didn’t only sit through one Olympics, though. He was around for a good long time after his gymnastics career ended. But not nearly long enough.

…

:sigh:

@David:
I ♥ you. I just totally get how one can be so deep into study of words and so used to them revealing unexpected meanings or connections that one stops making assumptions about them… and then can miss what is to others quite obvious. I’ve done this myself, though not with linguistics, a field in which I’ve had no study at all.

How old is #1 (who wishes nail polish)? I’m a big nail polish fan myself, and it’s definitely become a major thing in fashion of late.

She’s 4, turning 5 next month. And although I think we’re doing well so far on the issue, she’s surrounded by a culture that sets her out on a path of early sexualisation and being pretty *spits*
As I said, in other times we’d have fun painting each other’s nails, but at a time when it’s actively marketed at preschoolers and when her friends show her all that this is what girls must have, I have to put a stop on it before it begins.
How did they ask on Jezebel? How Many 8-Year-Olds Have To Get Bikini Waxes Before We All Agree The Terrorists Have Won?

re: placenta
In Germany you have to bury it in your garden and plant a tree on it. Apple for a boy, pear for a girl.

Giliell: Yeah, 4-5 is 100% too young for that shit, in this culture.(For some reason, i thought she was older.) I mean, waaaaaay back in the day, I had the Tinkerbell scented, peel-off polish, but that was always a fun, playing dress-up kind of thing, not a “mandatory femininity the second the umbilical cord is cut” kind of thing like it seems to be now. I know things weren’t this toxic when I was a little kid, and things were far from great back then. God, that’s depressing to think about. Being actually nostalgic for the days of “Math is hard!” Barbie because the culture was less misogynist.

Since DJ Grothe seems to think that sexual harassment is an extraordinary claim that must be met with skepticism, maybe women could mail him their weekly update, you know like those women who left their menstruational update on the FB wall of that conservative guy….

I like the way you think…

—

I really wish I hadn’t looked up lochia and stuff either – I mean, I kind of knew it happened, in an abstract way? But I really didn’t want to read that, particularly not whilst wondering about what to eat >.<

Also, that placenta teddy-bear is weird on so many levels. It feels about as wrong as the thought of making a poncho from someone's skin.

—

re: trains.
The trains here aren't *quite* as bad as America – probably mostly a function of distance: the UK isn't particularly big. They're alright at being on time, but nothing like the German trains (the German system is often held up as an example of what we should aspire to). People like to complain about the trains, though – it's a staple of comedy. There are particular problems in the commuter belt around London (most people don't drive into London, for various reasons) – there are never quite enough trains during rush hour, and there are regularly faults on the lines/cables stolen for the copper/whatever else, which delays a lot of trains and causes problems. But because the track is owned by one company, and the trains by another, it's an absolute miracle if anything gets done about it.

Being actually nostalgic for the days of “Math is hard!” Barbie because the culture was less misogynist.

I’ve gotta wonder if that Barbie was made today, would there be any uproar?

Earlier, Mr Darkheart told me that he had to have a “sit down” with our SiL– apparently, she didn’t take our request for non-gender specific toys very well. She thinks that we’re going to confuse Darkfetus by not forcing DF to conform to rigid stereotypes.

*headdesk!*

In other news: I am currently painting my nails. Giliell, it sucks that you can’t share that with your kid, but I totally understand why you’ve made that decision.

Audley: I really wonder the same about the Barbie. And then I get depressed. Good on you for not cramming DarkFetus into a stereotype box as early as possible. Disappointing that it’s apparently so controversial.

Also, what colour? I did mine the new aqua-turquoise shade earlier today.

Drab olive sounds fantastic. I always forget how much I love green polish and how great it looks on me, then I use it on a whim and feel awesome. I usually go with blues, greys, purples, combinations of the above and weird peachy “my skin, but robotic” shades.

She’s a great cat. It’s amazing the way she really, really wants to be around people. She’s a rescue and all that’s known of her is that she was found half starved. Kind of should expect her to be mortally afraid and mistrusting of people but she’s just the other way round.

I have one of those, Grendel. Right after we moved here and got the cat kennel set up, someone snuck a cat into it one night (a night which included a raging thunderstorm, natch.) A full grown male cat, large, who weighed 4.5 fucking pounds! I got him food right away and you should have heard him – sounded like the freaking devil-possessed girl in the Exorcist while eating at high speed.

He wants to be on top of people 24 hours a day. Also, has a panic attack if his food dish is empty.

Cipher:

Caine, my best friend, whom I’ve occasionally mentioned and who has heard me squee over your rat and dog pictures/stories occasionally and has had them sent to him because they were so cute I had to share, sends his condolences as well. He sounded very sad.

Oh, that is so thoughtful and nice. Please tell him thank you for me.

Sarahface, thank you.

Kat Lorraine:

Tomorrow. I go to my therapist.

TERRIFYING!!!

Breathe, breathe, breathe! You are going to be fine. Remember, you are the customer here – if they aren’t a good fit for you, tell them so and find someone else.

Noooo…. *sob, hug*

Aaaw. Hugses back. I cried my eyes out last night. ♥

Nerd:

Condolences on the death of Chas Caine. A good and faithful pet.

He was that. Thank you.

Sili & Keenacat, thank you.

RahXephon:

I’m so sorry, Caine! I’ve never lost a pet before, but I’m so attached to my cat I think I have at least some inkling of how I might feel if something happened to her.

Thank you. It’s a downside of rats, that their lives are so short. They do live them to the full, though!

LDTR, thank you.

I lost one of mine a couple of months ago. :-(

Oh, I am so sorry.

Opposablethumbs, thank you.

Rorschach, it can be so very painful, especially when you watch them go through so much on the medical front.

McCthulhu is no true Scotsman, thank you. It’s very difficult to lose a pet, even more so when it comes to the special ones.

Ogvorbis:

Wife and I got to go out to dinner last night. Went to a Wolfgang Puck Express and the food was a good 8 out of 10. Best of all, we had coupons, so the meal only cost $10 out of $25!

Oooooh. What did you order? Thank you for the condolences.

Chigau, *hugses back* Thank you.

Theophontes:

So sorry to hear this. It really felt like Chas belonged here on Pharyngula.

He did. One of the very first things he did was to dance on my keyboard while I posting to TET. I think I left his contribution in my post. :D Thank you.

Myeck Waters:

Caine, so sorry to hear about Chas. In the past or so I’ve heard more about him than some of my nieces and nephews, and that Guinness glass pic was majorly cute.

“Really a great rat” is a better epitaph than a lot of humans have earned.

Thank you, and I agree.

Carlie & Thunk, thank you.

David:

I’ve come to like him myself, you know.

Thank you very much. The Dust & Lint & Alfie & Chas photos are (here), photos 9 & 12. (For anyone lurking, they are NOT to be used without permission.)

PTI:

Hugs and more to you and the household. I’ll raise a glass for Chas tonight. Thanks to you posting tibits about him and the crew, I now understand why rats really do make such fun pets. RIP Chas.

Thank you. ♥

Birger & Dianne, thank you.

Audley, thank you so much. ♥

(Although, you might not want to wait *too* long. That’s how Mr Darkheart ended up with a rat named “Rat”– he was was waiting until a name popped, and suddenly he got to the point where Rat would only respond to, well, “Rat”.)

That is a distinct danger with rats, whatever word or sound you use with them consistently will become their name.

My mom has decided she needs a new car, so she did her internet research and narrowed it down to 4 similar models by 4 different manufacturers. Yesterday, she went to the dealerships to check them out, to narrow it down before she and my dad test drive them. Things went well at 3 of the 4 dealerships. At the 4th, a salesman came over and introduced himself as the sales manager. Mom explained that she was looking for a car, told him the 4 kinds that she was interested in, and asked him to tell her why she should pick his instead of one of the others. He started by asking her “what color car do you want?”

She thinks that we’re going to confuse Darkfetus by not forcing DF to conform to rigid stereotypes.

As opposed to… confusing Darkfoetus by making hir conform to roles and/or stereotypes that really, really don’t fit with hir personality and wishes? Teaching DF that conforming is more important than being happy with who zie is?
FWIW, I think DF can’t help but turn out awesome with parents like you.

On nail polish – if I can be bothered, I think I’ll paint my fingernails in the patterns of the ace flag tomorrow (Black/grey/white/purple, in that order). I don’t really wear it often, but particularly not since my style starting shifting from ‘slightly tomboy’ to ‘soft butch’/’hard femme’.
I kind of wish I had some awesome turquoise nail polishes, maybe painting my nails in such a summery colour would distract from the terrible non-summery weather that’s currently happening…

Well, it’s true, Audley. If awesomeness can be transmitted genetically, DarkFetus has hit the jackpot. If being raised around high levels of awesome affects child awesome levels, well then that part’s also guaranteed.

@Caine:
I never used to really like the idea of rats as pets, I think I was stuck in the whole, “Rats are icky and terrible” frame of mind. But reading about some of the exploits of your rats (and growing up a bit, I guess) has changed this, and I’ve put them on my List of Pets to Consider Getting, When Circumstances Allow. Also, I just flicked through those photos, and they are all *completely adorable*.

Well, it’s true, Audley. If awesomeness can be transmitted genetically, DarkFetus has hit the jackpot. If being raised around high levels of awesome affects child awesome levels, well then that part’s also guaranteed.

Sarahface: Conversely, the ‘ick factor’ was what initially made me want a rat, it was only after I acquired a scraggy and elderly male rat with ragged bitten ears and sparse fur from some pet owners that I realized how smart and affectionate rats were.

I only had that rat for a few months, but I’ll never forget old Scabbers.

GirlChild and I will miss stories and pictures of Chas. The one of Chas and Alfie eating out of Jayne’s bowl is one of our favorites. Our condolences.

Aw, thank you. Rats, like all animals, are individuals. You’re really lucky when you get ones like Chas & Alfie. This is the first time I haven’t wanted to run right out and get another rat. Esme & Rubin will be enough for now.

Rubin* is still the spookiest rat evar. He’s the 2nd most non-social rat I’ve had. Esme, though, she’s turned into a wonderful little individual, gorgeous and a master thief. :D

Some folks here may know that I had an abstract accepted to the Urban Biodiversity Conference in Mumbai this October. I just got an e-mail this morning asking for clarification on whether I wanted to present a poster or give a talk. My original plan was to present a poster, as I did in Iowa last December before I had done my season in the field, but now I’m starting to think that I should give a talk instead.

TLC @ #226: I think it would be the best thing ever, and if my parents had sone it, I think I’d wear it every day.

But then, I am also the kind of weirdo who keeps a whale skull in the living room, and can be swept off my feet with the gift of a 1933 sideshow group photo. (Got that last one yesterday, because The Mr. both knows me and spoils the hell out of me.)

I never used to really like the idea of rats as pets, I think I was stuck in the whole, “Rats are icky and terrible” frame of mind. But reading about some of the exploits of your rats (and growing up a bit, I guess) has changed this, and I’ve put them on my List of Pets to Consider Getting, When Circumstances Allow. Also, I just flicked through those photos, and they are all *completely adorable*.

That’s one of the best things I could possibly hear. Thanks! Rats are terribly bright, which is one of the reasons they make such great pets.

TLC:

I only had that rat for a few months, but I’ll never forget old Scabbers.

Some folks here may know that I had an abstract accepted to the Urban Biodiversity Conference in Mumbai this October. I just got an e-mail this morning asking for clarification on whether I wanted to present a poster or give a talk. My original plan was to present a poster, as I did in Iowa last December before I had done my season in the field, but now I’m starting to think that I should give a talk instead.

Caine: I love pet rats. They have adorable little paws and faces and such personalities. I think the only thing aside from space keeping me from having them is the short lifespan. I had a hamster and gerbils and shared some time with The Mr.’s hedgehog, and it’s just too little time to spend with that kind of amazing company. But then, I did take on my cat when she was already ancient. Strangely, the cats never really were interested in the cage or aquarium-dwelling pets. They just regarded it as a less-interesting sort of tv at most.

And not always the jurisdictions that you’d expect (though, yes, Georgia and Texas are problems). In Massachusetts the legislature passed a bill through at least one house (it might have been both) that made it a felony for anyone to create, possess, or transfer any sexual image (still or video) or recording depicting someone with a disability or someone over the age of 60 years old.

Massachusetts is progressive only by overall American standards. It is very paternalistic.

Giliell:

When talking about ethical concerns and environmental issues this comes from people on the internet who own computers and smartphones and all that stuff and who most likely take hot showers as well. I mean, do you really need those?

I’d categorize (brief) hot showers as fairly basic to good hygiene, whereas the other stuff can be justified as “necessary” to participate in modern society but not as crucial.

However, you may not be aware that, in American English anyway (not sure about other varieties), “Do you really need that?” in re food has a subtext of “Because you’re too fat already,” and the question always has an edge of disgust. When the asker tries to “soften” it to sound caring, it comes off as condescending. The subtext is entirely different when the question is asked about a new smartphone or other material luxury.

Rebecca Watson likely warns parents about her cursing because, unfortunately, a lot of parents are very uptight about cursing.

Keenacat, I agree with Carlie that you don’t owe your ex anything, with Giliell that he is not capable of functioning well in a relationship until he gets his shit together, and with PTI and Dianne that it would be a bad idea to get back together with him.

Jennifer, I hadn’t been keeping up with JT’s post in which he mocks TLC, but I browsed through most of it just now. Fucking Zengage.

For those who haven’t seen and don’t want to read the thread, Jennifer had included the phrase “TRIGGER WARNING” in a previous comment because it included a brief but detailed description of having been raped. Zengage echoed the phrase…. in the context of him being mocked and flamed on the internet.

And, yes, I saw your final response to him and to JT. It was richly deserved.

David M.:

Politeness is a lot more arbitrary than you seem to think. That’s why I hate it so much. All of it.

Yes, but social constructs are pretty arbitrary in general. While I’m hardly an etiquette buff, I do like Miss Manners’ approach, which is that it exists to serve people and not the other way around, and not simply the people with the most privilege.

Because being late makes me anxious, I have always been one of those punctual people, although I’ve gotten much more relaxed about it with time. Of course, it’s not always the fault of the late person. OTOH, there are people who regularly show up one, two, or more hours late for planned events, and they regard being asked not to do so as crimping their personal style. That’s just freaking rude and selfish, especially when the event involves tickets and the tickets aren’t cheap.

Audley:

She thinks that we’re going to confuse Darkfetus by not forcing DF to conform to rigid stereotypes.

Oh, vomit. I’ve heard that also used as an excuse to shame and police gender-variant behavior in children.

ImaginesABeach, I’d suggest that your mother call the Nissan dealership and tell the highest-ranking person there why they lost her business.

Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays

I love pet rats. They have adorable little paws and faces and such personalities. I think the only thing aside from space keeping me from having them is the short lifespan. I had a hamster and gerbils and shared some time with The Mr.’s hedgehog, and it’s just too little time to spend with that kind of amazing company. But then, I did take on my cat when she was already ancient. Strangely, the cats never really were interested in the cage or aquarium-dwelling pets. They just regarded it as a less-interesting sort of tv at most.

The short lifespan isn’t something everyone can deal with. I’ve accepted it, but it doesn’t make it easier when you lose them.

As for space, there are all kinds of ways you can deal with that one. I’ve linked this before, but this is what we did for our first rat, Ash and we still use the Rat Condo, except it’s been moved 80 gazillion times by now.

Ash never gave a shit about the cats, he bit every single one of them to make sure they knew their place. Chas & Alfie used to climb on the cats and get cleaned by them. They were all over the monster dogs, too.

Sarahface – jump in, give the talk. You have to start sometime, and then they get easier. Doing a talk isn’t any more or less prep than a poster, requires only 15 minutes of time at the conference rather than 2 hours standing there waiting for people, and makes more of an impression.

Why the fuck to libertarians visit national parks? More to the point, why do they visit national parks, go on interpretive tours with park rangers, and then try to hijack the tour into a discussion of whether or not the government should have anything at all to do with owning land, preserving historic areas, artifacts and buildings, and making labour unions look like they were anything other than communist attempts to take over America?

Oooooh. What did you order? Thank you for the condolences.

We shared a Chinese-style salad with chicken and a chicken sandwich with fresh mozzarella, tomato, and pesto. It was good. I like that cabbage is making a comeback into the US diet. It is showing up in more and more things.

At the 4th, a salesman came over and introduced himself as the sales manager. Mom explained that she was looking for a car, told him the 4 kinds that she was interested in, and asked him to tell her why she should pick his instead of one of the others. He started by asking her “what color car do you want?”

Damn. What an idiot.

I seem to remember reading, somewhere, that management is the economy’s way of removing useless people from the economic system.

If awesomeness can be transmitted genetically, DarkFetus has hit the jackpot.

Well, my kids are both awesome. Must have got it from Wife. It certainly wasn’t me.

Do you think it would be too weird for a parent to save up their kid’s baby teeth and make them into a necklace?

Children’s teeth tend to become quite brittle when they are exposed to air for a long period of time. Kinda crumbly.

Not weird, it just may not work. Talk to a palaeontologist (there’s gotta be one around here, at least) and find out the best taphonomy for the preservation of dentin and enamal.

Although I’m not too sure of my parenting ability…

No one is. Even those with lots of experience with human larvae have no clue how it will work when they have their own.

Your job now is to talk me out of this, as I am clearly insane.

Why do you not want to present the paper as a speaker? (Keep in mind, I make a living talking to total strangers in a rather formal environment, so . . . .)

Rats are terribly bright, which is one of the reasons they make such great pets.

I think, based on my own personal experience with our cats and Girl’s rats, that they are far more intelligent than cats.

Flip a coin, catch it, and slap it down on your other wrist. When you feel a moment of, “FSM I hope it’s not/it is X!” just before you reveal it, you should then instantly chose not X or X as appropriate. Don’t bother looking at the coin.

If you feel no hopes or hopes not, then I guess it really doesn’t matter and let the coin rule.

GAH. The daughter is A GROWN WOMAN. Fuck these sexist menz who think they get to have control over their daughters’ vaginas until they hand the daughter off to her next “rightful owner.”

“We know how boys think” – yeah, if that isn’t gender essentialist, I don’t know what is. Girls have “dirty” thoughts, too, and some boys really aren’t that interested in sex.

“I’m sure most of us pray that our daughters are married first.” Because all women want to get married. To men, anyway. Why do I get the feeling that Daddums would have flipped his shit were the daughter a lesbian and confided that to her mother but not him?

Caine: That picture made me tear up. What sweet little hands. Rats always amaze me how something so small can be so smart and capable.

As it stands, we barely have space for the two of us and two cats. Moving to a big expensive city meant we had to go for a smaller place than we’re used to. Someday…

We did have a hedgehog. His name was Milo, and he was the grumpiest, grumbliest and also cutest little thing. He liked his hiding tube, mealworms, and my feet. That was more or less it. He once escaped his cage, and we found him trying to get back in. “Horrible freedom!” We adored him, and he seemed to dislike us less than he did everyone else. But hedgies don’t have that impressive of lifespans.

Sarahface – jump in, give the talk. You have to start sometime, and then they get easier. Doing a talk isn’t any more or less prep than a poster, requires only 15 minutes of time at the conference rather than 2 hours standing there waiting for people, and makes more of an impression.

Sorry, I was actually quoting & replying to Rey Fox… I’m not old or experienced enough to be giving professional talks, alas. (Someday, hopefully).

—

I seem to remember reading, somewhere, that management is the economy’s way of removing useless people from the economic system. […] Even those with lots of experience with human larvae have no clue how it will work when they have their own.

You are so lucky I wasn’t drinking my tea when I read those.

—

No. She’s named after Esmerelda Weatherwax, aka Granny Weatherwax of Lancre. I’m waiting on a Gytha and Magrat.

D’awwww, that’s awesome. I love the idea of the witches in rat form. (And also the thought of introducing rat-Gytha to the Hadgehog Song.)
I think I might start a Discworld naming theme for my future pets – at least I’ll never run out of names…

Ms. Daisy Cutter
Oh, I understand that. People were usually less polite around here. “Do you really think you should eat that?
That’s why I was talking about the “ethical better than thou” folks. True is that they’re still making choices that cause harm to animals and the environment the same way meat/dairy farming does. Only the relationship is less direct. And they have justified for themselves that those choices are reasonable. But they feel entitled to judge other people who make different choices.

Rebecca Watson likely warns parents about her cursing because, unfortunately, a lot of parents are very uptight about cursing.

Oh, nothing against warning about cursing (although I’d say that we’re ore relaxed in Germany). I don’t know if this was clear from the program and my criticism doesn’t apply if it was, but had I been one of the parents I’d have much more welcomed a warning that the content would not be suitable for children who speak English because of talks about sexual violence.

Oh – c’mon, Rey! You know you can do that. And nobody in the room will know as much about your topic as you do. So go do it!

Why the fuck to libertarians visit national parks? More to the point, why do they visit national parks,

Because it’s cheaper than other vacation alternatives.

go on interpretive tours with park rangers, and then try to hijack the tour into a discussion of whether or not the government should have anything at all to do with owning land, preserving historic areas, artifacts and buildings, and making labour unions look like they were anything other than communist attempts to take over America?

We did have a hedgehog. His name was Milo, and he was the grumpiest, grumbliest and also cutest little thing. He liked his hiding tube, mealworms, and my feet. That was more or less it. He once escaped his cage, and we found him trying to get back in. “Horrible freedom!” We adored him, and he seemed to dislike us less than he did everyone else. But hedgies don’t have that impressive of lifespans.

Oh gods, he sounds wonderful. I’m cool with grumpy and grumbly, that’s me much of the time. :D

Sarahface:

I think I might start a Discworld naming theme for my future pets – at least I’ll never run out of names…

That’s a fact! One of these days, there will be a Verence, a Sam, an Angua, etc. I’d love to go with Fred & Nobby one of these days, but rats just aren’t stupid enough. ;D

GBME isnt about understanding. Have I already whined to you that I’d love to learn so much, bc it’s simply so fucking interesting, but that that would be a waste of time? if I want to pass GBME I must only learn what’ll be on the test!

till I studied for GMBE, I thought that of immunology I’m only interested in autoimmune diseases (simply EVERYTHING is an autoimmune disease!!), but no, I am interested in everything! totally!

*hug* ^_^ It’s not that bad; I’m just used to there being an ingroup and me not being in it. That’s how it used to be in meatspace. I’m even prone to assuming there’s an ingroup (and I’m out of it) when there isn’t in fact one; I respond a bit slowly to new situations where I’m the new one, so I automatically regard those who are already there as an ingroup. Having few if any meatspace friends (depending on definitions), I’m used to people not caring much about my whereabouts or needing me in any way or otherwise inquiring about me; I’m always surprised when they do, and when that happens, it’s usually on the Internet.

Heh. Funny how that works. My mood got worse and worse during this paragraph; clearly connected to the fact that I’m so tired. Rest assured, you totally overreacted. *bacon chocolate* :-)

Thanks for the offer, but be aware that I travel with The Passion of Christ and The Wrath of God (aka #1 and the little one).

Oh, so like Sister 1 and Brother, then? I’m used to that :-) :-) :-)

(The walls are thin, though, and the floors are drums. When I don’t pay attention to how I walk, the neighbor under me cannot sleep. House quickly rebuilt in 1953 after having been destroyed in WWII.)

I have a big fat bunch of family in Berlin who have invited me so often (it’s a shame I haven’t been there in 4 years) that I really need to get on their nerves :)

Oh, that’s a good argument :-)

Oh, I had an idea.
Since DJ Grothe seems to think that sexual harassment is an extraordinary claim that must be met with skepticism, maybe women could mail him their weekly update, you know like those women who left their menstruational update on the FB wall of that conservative guy….

Sounds good. Where can I learn more about that case with the menstruational updates?

How Many 8-Year-Olds Have To Get Bikini Waxes Before We All Agree The Terrorists Have Won?

Heh.

(How many 8-year-olds even have that much hair, though? I’m sure my sisters didn’t…)

@David:
I ♥ you. I just totally get how one can be so deep into study of words and so used to them revealing unexpected meanings or connections that one stops making assumptions about them… and then can miss what is to others quite obvious. I’ve done this myself, though not with linguistics, a field in which I’ve had no study at all.

~:-| What are you referring to? Something I said? Something John Morales said?

Thank you! ♥ I had seen the one with Alfie, but not the one with Chas. And I hadn’t seen the Guinness glass.

He started by asking her “what color car do you want?”

Idiot.

Quite.

audley: Ah, nails.

I always bite them off; lifelong habit for me.

Mine are too tough for that. So I cut them using the nails of the other hand, sideways.

My original plan was to present a poster, as I did in Iowa last December before I had done my season in the field, but now I’m starting to think that I should give a talk instead.

Your job now is to talk me out of this, as I am clearly insane.

Why? Are there concurrent sessions? If yes, if you give a poster and you’re lucky, you’ll have 5 people coming and talking to you, and you’ll miss almost all of the poster session you’re in, and you may have to run away during the talks to put your poster up; if you give a presentation and you’re out of luck, you’ll have 30 people listening to you. I did a poster once, against warnings, and won’t do it again.

OTOH, there are people who regularly show up one, two, or more hours late for planned events, and they regard being asked not to do so as crimping their personal style. That’s just freaking rude and selfish, especially when the event involves tickets and the tickets aren’t cheap.

You wrote the paper. You know the material. There will be people in the audience who know more about your basic subject than you. You wrote the paper. You have mastered this particular corner of your subject. And, more to the point, when you are speaking, you are in control. (This, by they by, is exactly the way I give interpretive programmes!) And, if someone does ask a question for which you do not know the answer, ask for their email and tell ’em you’ll get back to them.

Anyway, I think that a public presentation is many times more effective than a limited non-personal media presentation.

This is just me. Your results may vary. Created by a nut currently in a manufactured facility. Not to be taken for, or by, reality.

Caine: He was wonderful. Some hedgies are friendly sorts, but there’s something extra-special about having him happily sit on my feet knowing it was a big gesture for him. (I used to wear skirts exclusively for most of that time, and I thought he was just hiding underneath. Nah, short dressed were fine too for him.

And now I have my ancient kitty on my lap, purring like a diesel engine and maybe drooling a little.

One last – David, if I were anywhere near where you are, I’d be trying to drag you along to everything, because you are a great person to hang out with. I’m sorry that we’re all so scattered across the world, but you’re definitely in-group.

I’m just used to there being an ingroup and me not being in it. That’s how it used to be in meatspace. I’m even prone to assuming there’s an ingroup (and I’m out of it) when there isn’t in fact one; I respond a bit slowly to new situations where I’m the new one, so I automatically regard those who are already there as an ingroup. Having few if any meatspace friends (depending on definitions), I’m used to people not caring much about my whereabouts or needing me in any way or otherwise inquiring about me; . . . .

I think David and I are mental twins. Or, at least, social twins. I think that Pharyngula is the first place I have ever been at which I feel truly welcome as who I am. Then again, there is a little part of me that knows it would be different if we were in meatspace — I’d be the outsider there.

Oh dear. m-/
Reading that I kinda get the message of, “Hey, look at all these things that I did. Are you going to give me cookies now? ‘Cause I think I deserve them. No, really, look at why I’m such a good person.” Very much in the style of, “Hey, I’m an ally. Let me tell you how and why, and why you should ignore all the other things I did wrong.” (Because that *definitely* hasn’t been said recently *at* *all*… Nope. [/sarcasm])

It was linked to in the DJG thread. I read it a while ago. DJ could have saved himself many a word if he had simply wrote “That’s nice, I’m an ally, so don’t be mean and to prevent all that talking, don’t mind while I toss you over this bridge.“

I think that Pharyngula is the first place I have ever been at which I feel truly welcome as who I am. Then again, there is a little part of me that knows it would be different if we were in meatspace — I’d be the outsider there.

Children’s teeth tend to become quite brittle when they are exposed to air for a long period of time. Kinda crumbly.

That’s true for enamel in general: when it dries out, it turns brittle. That’s why ivory from forest elephants is more expensive than that of savanna elephants.

Okay, now everyone’s supposed to remind me that this will be an audience of professionals and scientists,

So?

most of whom will have scary accents.

But you’re the one doing the talking. Are you afraid of not understanding the questions? After a few talks, you’ll get used to almost any accent, so just hope your talk isn’t the very first one of the entire meeting. :-)

David, Mattir’s comment is <a href="here.

Oh, thanks. *squeezes more hugs into USB port*

I’ve overlooked a lot on that page of that thread. No idea why.

One last – David, if I were anywhere near where you are, I’d be trying to drag you along to everything, because you are a great person to hang out with. I’m sorry that we’re all so scattered across the world, but you’re definitely in-group.

♥ Yes, I was talking about meatspace.

Though there, I now have colleagues (other postdocs and PhD students) to play soccer with on Thursdays. Decidedly better than nothing! (Also, I really need the exercise. I don’t otherwise move all week long.)

I dragged poor David out far too much, the poor thing. I fully expect mattir to hurt me for forcing him to eat out.

As I said then, I’m happy you did. There are lots of things, touristy ones all the way to interesting museums, for which I could hardly ever get myself to get up and leave the house when it’s just for myself. There’s a fair amount of Paris I haven’t seen… and keep in mind that my thesis supervisor met two successive girlfriends in the Louvre!

Also, some of the food in both restaurants* was awesome.

* Turkish and Vietnamese.

Then again, there is a little part of me that knows it would be different if we were in meatspace — I’d be the outsider there.

I know, I’m terrible at flouncing. I was trying (unsuccessfully) to find the latest episode of Korra to watch, but it’s not online yet, so I peeked back in. I’ll turn the computer off now. :)

Og – seriously, I do know that feeling. It is generally wrong for most people, though, and it’s wrong for you too. We’ve seen enough of you for long enough that I think we have a pretty good handle on your personality, and it’s a good one.

What’s a conservative activist to do when Jon Stewart digs up a CNN clip that’s more than a decade old in which she opines that Viagra fills a legitimate healthcare need but contraceptives do not?

In Helen Alvaré’s case, the answer is to own it. Alvaré, a law professor at George Mason University, an advisor to Pope Benedict XVI’s Pontifical Council for the Laity, and a former spokesperson for and current advisor to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, used her Daily Show cameo as the starting point for a recent speech at the Franciscan University of Steubenville. The mockery of Jon Stewart was proof, Alvaré suggested, that sexual libertines don’t understand the nature and purpose of sex, and that they certainly don’t understand religious liberty. Because, she argued, Stewart and the government share the belief that sex “is not related to procreation directly, intrinsically, axiomatically,” they simply cannot comprehend the gravity of how contraception damages women.

“Only with this view,” Alvaré added, “could a comedian or a government conclude that if a man has a condition that makes it difficult to procreate, that’s not a medical problem. But if a woman is in a position where she can procreate, then she needs some medicine, and it better be free.”

Facepalm!

…Alvaré appears frequently in the media — … She is a fellow at the conservative Witherspoon Institute in Princeton, New Jersey, where she focuses on issues of “conscience,” and she is one of the “circle of experts” for the National Organization for Marriage’s Ruth Institute, which aims to shape public opinion on college campuses and elsewhere about “marriage as the proper context for sex and childrearing.” …

When I first saw her speak at a panel discussion on the HHS mandate and religious freedom at Georgetown University in March, Alvaré crammed 50 years of legal, medical, Catholic, sexual and sociological history into a breathless dissertation about how the availability of contraception has led to the “immiseration” of women. She accused the Obama administration, through its reliance on the Institute of Medicine’s recommendations on contraception coverage, of being motivated by possible anti-Catholic “animus,” and dismissed out of hand the relevance of the scientific and medical evidence the IOM report presented. For Alvaré, the medical evidence is purely ideological and untrustworthy, precisely because it is premised on the usefulness of contraceptives and compiled by people who favor the availability of contraception and abortion.

Headdesk.

At the heart of Alvaré’s persistent arguments are what she presents as two essential truths: Birth control is bad for women’s health and well-being, and the government’s effort to legislate insurance coverage for it by religious institutions represents a violation of both religious freedom and the separation of church and state…. It’s not just that the government is telling them to cover the cost of contraceptives, as Catholic University president John Garvey has argued; it’s that the government is telling them how to be Catholic….

Alvaré takes this idea that the government is interfering in Catholic affairs and piles on the completely fallacious argument that the government aims to harm women by promoting sexual promiscuity with contraceptives that don’t even work anyway. On the latter point, she echoes the falsehoods promoted by her former employer, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops….

“When you invent parachutes,” she said in Steubenville, “more people die jumping out of planes.” But, contra Alvaré, teen pregnancies are now at an all-time low, thanks to contraception. She laments increases in non-marital birth rates — but non-marital birth rates don’t mean contraceptives fail. Higher rates of non-marital births might demonstrate exactly what Alvaré doesn’t want to hear: that contraceptives aren’t made widely available — or correctly used — often enough. Or the statistics might just mean that women are choosing to have children in a manner inconsistent with the sexual mores of Helen Alvaré. In any case, contraceptives, when used correctly — forgive me for having to reiterate this — are highly successful at preventing pregnancy….

TLC @ #287: So glad I didn’t have to deal with brain when I got the only skull I had to clean myself (squirrel). It was almost clean when I found it, so all I had to do was simmer off the remaining skin bits.

Caine @ #289: I don’t think it’s that weird. Rat skulls look awesome, and as someone with the cremains of a few pets in little containers on the shelves, it’s not like i’m in a position to judge.

That’s why I was talking about the “ethical better than thou” folks. True is that they’re still making choices that cause harm to animals and the environment the same way meat/dairy farming does. Only the relationship is less direct. And they have justified for themselves that those choices are reasonable. But they feel entitled to judge other people who make different choices.

This is exactly the same claim that conservatives make about people who drive and advocate more fuel-efficient automobiles.

You are incorrect, because eating a veg* diet does in fact result in fewer animals being harmed. Purchasing fewer computers means reduced consumption of rare earth elements. Turning off the lights and computers you aren’t currently using means reduced use of coal. Driving less, and driving more efficient cars, means reduced use of oil.

The claim is false when conservatives use it against fuel efficiency, and it’s false when you use it too. (Whether you have the same motivations they do would be interesting to investigate.)

I think I have to pich the horde’s brains, here. What is the easiest way to clean bones? I have heard burial, boiling, and some other methods, but I haven’t really tried any yet. Everything I’ve picked up has been old and sun-bleached.

I have heard from one local fish and wildlife guy that he just dumps ’em on a fire ant pile for a week or so. Links would be fine if this is too squickie for TET..

Arrrghhhh! I posted too soon. I was going to go back and add to the top my sympathies for Caine’s loss, and say that I have been tempted to keep the skulls of pets before, too. I think with canids, though that there may be some legal issues there.

Mike G, I just bury. Given the amount of insect activity where I am, it doesn’t take long for a clean skeleton. Of course, when I say ‘not that long’, I tend to forget, so the remains are usually buried more than 6 months.

What are you referring to? Something I said? Something John Morales said?

I was referring to:

*lightbulb moment* I had never made the connection between “crip” and “crippled”. I had simply treated “crip” as meaningless or of unknown meaning.

when I said:

I ♥ you. I just totally get how one can be so deep into study of words and so used to them revealing unexpected meanings or connections that one stops making assumptions about them… and then can miss what is to others quite obvious. I’ve done this myself, though not with linguistics, a field in which I’ve had no study at all.

Arrrghhhh! I posted too soon. I was going to go back and add to the top my sympathies for Caine’s loss, and say that I have been tempted to keep the skulls of pets before, too. I think with canids, though that there may be some legal issues there.

Thank you. ♥ With dogs, it depends on where you live (as to whether or not it’s legal to bury on your property, and if it isn’t, can you get away with it anyway) and the size of the corpse.

There are farmers here who, when they manage to shoot coyotes (sorry, TLC, I don’t like it either), skin them and toss them over the Muddy Creek bridge. Left to nature, it’s not long before you have a stripped down, almost clean skeleton. Most people wouldn’t want to skin their former pet, though. I wouldn’t be able to do that.

No. Really. That is the first thought that came through my damaged mind.

That reminds me of my attitude when playing soccer with people I haven’t played before: they treat me as if I were good at it, they give me the ball on occasion because they expect me to do something useful with it, because they don’t know any better yet.

Turns out (twice so far) most of them aren’t actually better than I; school, where almost everyone male was much better (and the teachers expected everyone to be on their level), was actually an outlier.

“When you invent parachutes,” she said in Steubenville, “more people die jumping out of planes.”

That may be so, but at the same time, fewer people die in crashing planes. Doesn’t that number more than offset the number of those who die jumping?

Christ, what an asshole.

I bury my (dead) rats in a planter outside, wait the appropriate time, then retrieve their skulls. Rat skulls are awesome.

I know it’s strange, what can I say?

♥ You’re in very good company. The ScienceBlogs version of Tetrapod Zoology has a post on “How to rot down dead bodies”. I hope the comments are being restored.

And when will he stop using “message” as a verb? Repeatedly. In everything he writes lately. He’s fucking obsessed with buzzwords. Fixations on trendy “tactics” in communication are diagnostic of people who don’t have anything substantive to say and a whole lot to say about how they’re going to say it.

What’s Helen Alvaré’s excuse for not being able to properly assess the role of contraception in women’s health?

Because, she argued, Stewart and the government share the belief that sex “is not related to procreation directly, intrinsically, axiomatically,” they simply cannot comprehend the gravity of how contraception damages women.

“Only with this view,” Alvaré added, “could a comedian or a government conclude that if a man has a condition that makes it difficult to procreate, that’s not a medical problem.”

Er… She must be trapped in an alternate world? One with hallucinogenic atmosphere, maybe. And where men *only* ask Viagra prescription for procreative purposes, no, no, srsly, for realz, not just wanting to fornicate, doc, I kid you not. o_O

I think the topic is actually interesting, and it’s an area that hasn’t gotten much attention (how Roman slaves construct their masculinity in light of the fact that free men’s masculinity depends on their right to physical integrity, which slave men don’t have), and I think I’ve struck on some interesting ideas, but I hate writing it so much I could cry, and every time I actually write something for it, I hate it and have to delete it.

Oh great. I’ve been sucked into another drama-filled thread read at Hallquist’s place. I really wish someone would tell Abdullah that his “the skeptic/atheist movement should only be made up of SCIENTISTS talking SCIENCE so Rebecca Watson should STFU” game is ridiculous beyond measure.

RaH, you know the most hilarious part? Hallquist is so naive he actually thinks the slimepitters who showed up are interested in anything he writes not on the topic of Rebecca Watson. He even put up a post directing them to his greatest hits.

Now for my daily dose of “Things That Make Me Want To Scream”:
Last night at work, after closing, two employees (one male, one female) kept making continuous jokes using female gendered insult (the four letter one that starts with ‘C'; I’m erring on the side of caution here by not using the term, as I’d like to stay within etiquette wherever possible). The guy made the comment that he didn’t understand why some people didn’t like the term. As exhausted as I was (little sleep before I had to work last night), all I could muster was a comment that I could explain one big reason why people have issues with it if I had sufficient time (and coherency of mind…this was about 3:30 AM after 10 hours of work). They kept at it for so long that I had to go outside and clean the patio to get away from them.
On the plus side, I got to have a fun conversation with a group of four about driving long distances-solo-and what can be done to keep entertained. I had forgotten the audio book I purchased a few years back about “100 things everyone should know how to do”.http://www.simplyaudiobooks.com/audio-books/Experts'+Guide+to+100+Things+Everyone+Should+Know+How+to+Do/24863/
(I found that even the ones I had no interest in were still enlightening to listen to)
..
BTW, is there a way to find specific comments without having to scroll through the entire last few pages of TET? Someone explained how to do the _href_ tag thing, which I loved, but forgot to copy/save or even write down. I feel technologically behind sometimes (I still don’t have an Ipod or any ‘music in your ears’ listening devices).

DJ could have saved himself many a word if he had simply wrote “That’s nice, I’m an ally, so don’t be mean and to prevent all that talking, don’t mind while I toss you over this bridge.”

Who’s up for doing a “Privilege-Denying JT Grothe” quickmeme?

Ogvorbis, as yet another Pharynguloid who knows exactly how you and David feel, I would be honored to meet you offline, if the opportunity ever arose.

Lynna, Alvaré sounds like just one more in a long, long line of Catho-fundie propagandists, calling up down and black white.

“Religious liberty” is, of course, the liberty to force other people to obey the laws you ascribe to your deity. This interpretation was openly embraced by Scots-Irish emigrants, as explained in David Hackett Fischer’s Albion’s Seed, which is a must-read for anyone who wants to know why the U.S. is the way it is, culturally and politically.

Julian: What Josh said. SN’s passive-aggression makes it worse (smilies, “heheheheh” and the like). I’ve Adblocked her avatar because just the sight of her face has come to infuriate me.

RahXephon, I would like to send you an email. Do you feel comfortable posting an email address here, or should I ask another regular whose email address I have to “broker the introduction”?

Josh, Hallquist’s defense of Ryan Long is what really made my jaw drop w/r/t his post. I mean… really?

. I really wish someone would tell Abdullah that his “the skeptic/atheist movement should only be made up of SCIENTISTS talking SCIENCE so Rebecca Watson should STFU” game is ridiculous beyond measure.

Seriously? Why don’t he send an e-mail to the Novello brothers and demand that they kick her off TSGU.

Wait. Some people did. And they were ignored.

Also, fuck it all, not all scientists are atheists and not all atheists are scientists. Way to argue for keeping atheism segregated in a specific class.

RaH, you know the most hilarious part? Hallquist is so naive he actually thinks the slimepitters who showed up are interested in anything he writes not on the topic of Rebecca Watson. He even put up a post directing them to his greatest hits.

Yeah, I went back over there (not through the original link here, but through the FtB sidebar thingie) and saw it when the page loaded. I was literally gobsmacked by his “while you’re all here talking about how bitchez ain’t shit, may I interest you in these fine leather jackets?” sales pitch.

You know, first JT, now Hallquist…I’m starting to wonder if displaying rank misogyny is a new way to bump up page views.

Caine, I’m sorry to hear about Chas. I haven’t been around TET long enough to have heard many of the stories, but I’ve learned enough to know that Chas was an exceptional rat.

Reminded me of the rat I had in my classroom when I was teaching high school science a few years ago. The kids named him Pancho. He was rescued from one of the local colleges, so I’m sure he was fairly old, and I doubt he’s still alive. I vividly remember when one of the chuckleheads put one of our Madagascar hissing roaches into his cage. Watching a rat eat a three-inch insect was strangely mesmerizing, if unsettling. (I loved those roaches!)

To answer Crip Dyke’s question from a long time ago, I go to law school in Northern California. (Not one of the ones people have heard of! But a good one nonetheless.) One more year left! I hope to be a public defender when I grow up.

I thought I had read FTB pretty faithfully since it started up, but before the latest shitstorm beginning with Jen McCreight’s revelation of the so-called blacklist and culminating (I hope) in the current DJ Grothe foot-mouthing, I had never seen people showing up in the comments sections just to point out how much no one likes FTB bloggers and how they should just shut up and die or whatever. Have I just not been paying attention?

And where men *only* ask Viagra prescription for procreative purposes, no, no, srsly, for realz, not just wanting to fornicate, doc, I kid you not. o_O

Perhaps they’re unaware of the most recent infectious disease crisis: rampant STDs in retirement communities. Old people are having far more sex than their kids and grandkids feel comfortable thinking about. (Especially, apparently, in Massachusetts. What the…)

Interested in meeting up? It would be a drive, but it would be worth it… I’d love to talk with someone else from pharyngula about life, the universe, and everything…and along the way talk about law school, the law, & the constitution as well.

““Religious liberty”” is, of course, the liberty to force other people to obey the laws you ascribe to your deity. This interpretation was openly embraced by Scots-Irish emigrants, as explained in David Hackett Fischer’s Albion’s Seed,

It might be a fine book — the reviewers complain that it’s not racist enough — but that website, IHR, is a neo-Nazi site.

In oregon, I think Willamette is a mediocre undergraduate institution (at best) but located in the capitol it actual has a good law school with lots of connections to state government. Though it’s out-of-state rep isn’t much (in fact, is generally non-existent, not good or bad, just unknown), it does a very good job of prepping students for working with (or against) state government in Oregon.

Specialized, sure, but good at what it does. Lots of relatively high placed people in Oregon government are Willamette law grads.

Crip Dyke, that would be great! It would be a drive indeed, though. I drove down here when I moved from the Walla Walla area of Washington, and I barely managed to stay conscious. Even after a few hours of sleep in Oregon.

But yes, I would like to meet up. I’ve never met anyone from these parts either, and it would be great to talk about common interests.

I’m focusing intently on criminal law. I plan to go into indigent criminal defense, if I can find jobs at least. This fall I’ll do a clinic at the local public defender’s office. Standing up for the constitutional rights of poor accused people, almost all of them members of minorities, seems to me a good way to express the need for limitations on official power. It also leads to a lot of frustration and even depression, as failure is frequent, but I’m determined to give it a try. It’s also one of the surest ways to spend plenty of time in the courtroom.

Crip Dyke, what’s P or SC? I might as well stop being cryptic; I attend Hastings in San Francisco. It’s well-regarded in California for producing lawyers with practical skills, but I don’t know how well-known it is out of state. I hope at least a few have heard of it in case my fiance and I decide to move to the Seattle area instead of California.

Having few if any meatspace friends (depending on definitions), I’m used to people not caring much about my whereabouts or needing me in any way or otherwise inquiring about me; . . . .

Since moving away from my hometown and becoming a fairly independent student, I’ve often thought that if I were to die suddenly in my home or on one of my bike trips, it could be a week or two before anyone even noticed that they hadn’t seen me around in a while.

Sex is degrading and the act can only be redeemed by the appearance of a baby nine months later.

Through a painful and often deadly procedure.

You wrote the paper.

Actually, the paper is going to be the last thing I’ll do.

I don’t know what the schedule of everything is going to be, but when I last presented a poster, it was in the evening after all the talks were over. So the only thing I really ended up missing out on was all of the hors d’ouevres being served.

I wrote back saying that I’ll give a talk. There’s no sense traveling halfway around the world to be in a glorified science fair. :P

Data? Your statement sounds right, but it’d be nice to have some back up for the statement.

It can be shown by taking seriously the arguments against veg* diets, which all rely on pointing out that small animals die in grain harvesting. However, since meat-based diets involve feeding that grain to cows and chickens and then killing those animals, there are still fewer deaths in veg* diets.

Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays

It can be shown by taking seriously the arguments against veg* diets, which all rely on pointing out that small animals die in grain harvesting. However, since meat-based diets involve feeding that grain to cows and chickens and then killing those animals, there are still fewer deaths in veg* diets.

I think that’s because some people misinterpret (deliberately or not) the position that when one takes up a veggie diet for ethical reasons, they’re trying to do harm reduction, not harm elimination. By going for the latter, it lets them paint the position as impossible and naive.

It actually doesn’t seem to be all that different in kind from the arguments we’ve been hearing since EGate about how, if we want like, an anti-harassment policy at conventions, then we’re trying to Stop People From Ever Getting Laid and then The Human Race Will Die Out.

Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays

Rey: I like to give talks much better than posters because I find that I have much more control over the order that information is delivered. People often have a tendency to read posters in pieces or start asking questions without having read anything…you end up kind of giving ten talks, with the tempo dictated by the listener. I find that maddening.

It used to make me very nervous though, so I would write my talk as if it were a script, insert blocking and beats, and practice it like it was a performance*. Time consuming, but by the time I gave my talk, it was rote and incredibly easy to give.

Also, I think I read yesterday that Rey Fox isn’t really your name…I noticed what I thought was an amusing concordance between your first and last name long ago, and this explains it.

*I used to do some amateur (and amateurish) acting, so this was kind of fun.

However, since meat-based diets involve feeding that grain to cows and chickens and then killing those animals, there are still fewer deaths in veg* diets.

Then a diet involving grass fed cows (or whatever animal) and little or no grain might result in a lower animal death count? Habitat destruction might be an issue as well, though. Cows, at least, are notorious for needing lots of land and thus destroying large amounts of wilderness. It’d be nice to see someone put actual numbers to it all, though.

Rey, I got it and I lol’d. I wanted to post the literal video version which cracks me up every damn time but I’ve screwed up the video linky here too often. I know it’s right there above where I’m typing and I’m suitably embarrassed.

This is why I can’t stay in TET while pitbull’s around, or mount a direct critique.

Alternating between aggressive, invalidating, or undermining behavior and charm/praise is a characteristic tactic of emotional abuse.

…Ah. I’ll have to watch that about myself, then, because I tend to recognize the facets of multifaceted people and comment on them separately – even taking pride in that, because I don’t blithely dismiss people as a whole the way an ad-hominem argument does.

Heh. Interesting that you both are in economics. Perhaps there’s something about your names…

There are two Andrew Milner in vertebrate paleontology. They sometimes both come to meetings of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology. One is in England, the other is the state paleontologist of Utah.

The wife of the English one is called Angela, and she’s in the same field! So, “A. Milner” can be quite ambiguous.

Michael P. Taylor, who works on sauropods, and Michael A. Taylor, who works on plesiosaurs, have also been confused.

Many hugz and copious amounts of chocolate and other goodies your way via the magic of the Gynocratic Hive Mind Transport System (GHIMTS).

FTW!

I don’t know why I didn’t wonder about this before…what the heck is the point of a middle name?

To confuse the evil spirits that want to harm a child but know only one name. Somehow.

Also, greater number of patron saints, just to make sure.

…And finally, in Germany, at least one given name has to be unambiguously gendered. No idea why, but it’s an actual law. Many Turkish names are unisex.

It also cuts the number of children needed to preserve all the obscure naming traditions in a family in half.

This is why middle names are Serious Business in the USA and not here: over here, families don’t have naming traditions.

Caine, I’m sorry to hear about Chas. I haven’t been around TET long enough to have heard many of the stories, but I’ve learned enough to know that Chas was an exceptional rat.

Reminded me of the rat I had in my classroom when I was teaching high school science a few years ago. The kids named him Pancho. He was rescued from one of the local colleges, so I’m sure he was fairly old, and I doubt he’s still alive. I vividly remember when one of the chuckleheads put one of our Madagascar hissing roaches into his cage. Watching a rat eat a three-inch insect was strangely mesmerizing, if unsettling. (I loved those roaches!)

Thank you. Oh my, I imagine that was unsettling, to say the least. I was watching Chas once, when he moved like lightning, grabbed a fat fly out of the air and proceeded to bite its head off. It’s a helluva thing.

I think the topic is actually interesting, and it’s an area that hasn’t gotten much attention (how Roman slaves construct their masculinity in light of the fact that free men’s masculinity depends on their right to physical integrity, which slave men don’t have), and I think I’ve struck on some interesting ideas, but I hate writing it so much I could cry, and every time I actually write something for it, I hate it and have to delete it.

I can imagine. *hug*

Hallquist is so naive he actually thinks the slimepitters who showed up are interested in anything he writes not on the topic of Rebecca Watson. He even put up a post directing them to his greatest hits.

And he seems to believe in all seriousness that lots of people would want to talk about the boring W. L. Craig again!

Then a diet involving grass fed cows (or whatever animal) and little or no grain might result in a lower animal death count? Habitat destruction might be an issue as well, though. Cows, at least, are notorious for needing lots of land and thus destroying large amounts of wilderness. It’d be nice to see someone put actual numbers to it all, though.

I’ve always felt it would make more sense if we were to focus more on more ‘efficient’ species for agriculture than cows, such as goats, or even smaller animals like rabbits.

This is why middle names are Serious Business in the USA and not here: over here, families don’t have naming traditions.

You mean in Germany? I don’t know about other European countries, but in my parents’ generation, traditional naming patterns were still a reality here in France, and it hasn’t completely died down. (With different degrees depending on the region, and the social status.)

For instance, naming a child after his godmother (for girls) or godfather (for boys), or after the saint of the day of their birth. Catholic parents may also add “Marie” as a second or third Christian name, for both girls and boys. With the vogue of exotic first names, comes also the necessity for Christians to add a second name to be used only for baptism. It happened to my mother, her second name isn’t even written down on her identity documents, but only on parish registers!

And then there’s the names in the family: children named after a grand-parent or other old relative, especially if said relative is recently deceased. (That’s how my brother was named after one of his grand-fathers.)

An even more peculiar thing is the case of people who always use another first name altogether than any of the ones they were given. It used to be a sort of superstition, in my grand-parents time (early 20th Century), in the country: boys, especially, were often known by another name than the one written down officially. Not for any particular reason, just a vague (and not really conscious) case of “let the Devil be confused about who’s who among our kids”.

Ogvorbis, what do you mean a tooth necklace is not weird? It’s not wrong, and weird is frequently more interesting and fun than normal, but of course it’s weird! Yay weird!

I don’t think I could stand pets with such a short life-span as rats. It’s bad enough that our two cats died at 7 and 9 of a genetic kidney disorder, when we’d hoped for 15+.

Re DJG’s screed – it started out ok, not looking like a notpology at all. And then it sort of went into a long boring ‘look how good I’ve been’ shuffle. And there was a needle-across-record skrrrrrcchhh noise in my head when he went right back into “so shut up about it already” mode.

@Tony, it’s generally OK to say teh bad wurdz here if you are discussing them. We do understand the use-reference distinction. We have heard them all before. However, some people can’t bring themselves to do even this. I have trouble writing out the n-word in full.

@Dianne, don’t ask. Just don’t. Oh wait, too late. He will always assume that all meat is grain-fed and completely ignore all other models. Mixed farming with carp and frogs in the rice paddies of Asia; the ancient western tradition of scrap-fed and foraging pigs and chickens; the complete inability of steppes, scrublands or highlands to even produce grain, yet still provide pasture; the serious ecological devastations due to land clearing, monocropping, fertiliser runoffs etc – all these do not exist. It’s the evil big agribusiness versus pure and noble vegetarians eating soy that was umm, produced by fairies.

Rey Fox: Oh, good, you’re doing the talk! You’ll get a better audience than a poster, and it will be a good experience. Plus, I usually find it’s harder to get a spot at conferences for a talk than a poster, so you might as well seize the opportunity while you have it.

David M.:

Politeness is a lot more arbitrary than you seem to think. That’s why I hate it so much. All of it.

I feel that way a lot of the time too. Sometimes the rules seem to make sense, and sometimes they seem designed to make people’s lives harder. I find it a lot easier to remember and follow the rules that make some kind of sense (to me at least). Maybe that’s what Ms. Daisy Cutter means about the Miss Manners approach. For example, writing thank-you cards to show gratitude is more obvious to me than something like dress code, which seems pretty arbitrary.

I’m even prone to assuming there’s an ingroup (and I’m out of it) when there isn’t in fact one

I hear you. It sucks. I find that I’m more confident than usual these days, but that’s probably because my entire social life revolves around the biology department, and I’ve been there long enough to be comfortable. I think that it takes me a lot of time to feel like I belong in a group, if I ever do; maybe you’re the same way.

I would definitely feel like an outsider if I met a group of Horde members in meatspace. But I’m also sure that I would love them instantly – who wouldn’t want to spend time with people as smart and interesting as all of you?

Sarahface: I don’t think I said hi yet. So, hi! Welcome to TET. Here is some complementary *lemonade*.

Josh: SpokesKraftDinner is the best one yet.

TLC:

I can’t express how glad I am that it finally stopped leaking brain sludge.

Best sentence of the day!

Skulls: I would love a coyote skull. One of my friends studies canids; I should see if people have laid claim to all of her fox skulls yet. She was looking into getting a beetle (?) colony of some kind to strip the skulls down.

————-

Survived the bridal shower. If I ever get married, I’m not doing anything even remotely like that.

Teeth. I have every one of both Spawn’s milk teeth (at least I don’t think we lost any; might be the odd one missing) – each one in a separate envelope labelled with name, date, and which tooth it was (I got the labelling system wrong though – I used numbers as for adult teeth instead of letters as for milk teeth). We also have one of First Dog’s milk teeth (the only one we found – all the rest were probably eaten). (I didn’t know they might be crumbly until I read Bro Og’s comment, though). They are all there in their envelopes, on the top shelf to the left of the desk, look, just up there.
.
Cipher #319 Your topic actually sounds really fascinating. Is there any chance we might get to read [any of] it eventually? I, um, know a classicist (I think she’s a postgrad student and her girlfriend is a Classics professor) who also writes fiction about the classical world and is very very serious about getting her research right who would LOVE to read about this topic. I’m sorry it’s horrible to write, though :(
.
Good night Horde, read you tomorrow …

Teeth necklace? Now I am flashing back to the Sealab 2021 episode when Murphy is trapped under the cola machine and the cleaning robot is wearing a necklace made of his teeth that get knocked out bwhen the soda machine sends a can flying at Murphy’s face.

Skulls: I would love a coyote skull. One of my friends studies canids; I should see if people have laid claim to all of her fox skulls yet.

I have two coyote skulls. Both of them have absolutely HORRIBLE teeth, the ‘younger’ appearing one (I have no way of knowing this personally) has chipped lower canines and rotted out front teeth, the other has a long-lost and grown over canine, almost no front teeth, and absolutely rotten molars.

Both of them were collected in completely different areas (fraser valley vs near Merritt) and environments. Are wild canids just naturally prone to terrible tooth decay?

Maybe those particular questions are just for Seinfeld, but “aversion to watching musical performance” does not compute.

Yeah, with me it’s not just men, and it’s not just singing. There are a number of musical instruments I can’t watch people play either, especially if they’re talented. Offhand, uncertainly, I think it’s that I start to get too absorbed into the music and I sort of panic. It does bear kind of an emotional resemblance to someone being inside my personal space when I don’t want them to be. But I don’t know for sure.

Offhand, uncertainly, I think it’s that I start to get too absorbed into the music and I sort of panic.

Sorry (if you don’t mind me asking), what is there to be panicked about?

It does bear kind of an emotional resemblance to someone being inside my personal space when I don’t want them to be. But I don’t know for sure.

I’m just trying to interpret this… So would you say it feels like you’re more in control of the experience or that it’s more predictable, if the music seems to be in your head and disembodied, rather than coming from the performers/instruments?

Mixed farming with carp and frogs in the rice paddies of Asia; the ancient western tradition of scrap-fed and foraging pigs and chickens; the complete inability of steppes, scrublands or highlands to even produce grain, yet still provide pasture;

Now these here are interesting dishonesties, since they imply that I’ve claimed everyone on Earth could go vegan at this time.

I have not.

When we get the Sb comments back, I’ll be able to point to earlier discussions in which I’ve been explicit in saying that not everyone could do it at this time.

What I’m generally careful to point out, time and time again, is that these conversations are taking place on certain blogs, with certain demographics of readers, people who generally could go vegan at this time. That’s quite a distance from your implication here, Alethea.

the serious ecological devastations due to land clearing, monocropping, fertiliser runoffs etc – all these do not exist.

I don’t advocate land clearing, monocropping, or unsustainable fertilizer usage.

It’s particularly hypocritical for you, Alethea, to act like these things must be features of any vegan diet, while at the same time you claim to offer examples of nonvegan diets — specialized diets which happen to be exceedingly rare in industrialized nations — which are somehow supposed to be emblematic of nonvegan diets. You really can’t honestly have it both ways. If you get to claim all your exceedingly rare diets, then to be honest you must allow the same for your debate opponent.

It’s the evil big agribusiness versus pure and noble vegetarians eating soy that was umm, produced by fairies.

This is an egregious sort of lie, since I have never said anything about purity or nobility.

So would you say it feels like you’re more in control of the experience or that it’s more predictable, if the music seems to be in your head and disembodied, rather than coming from the performers/instruments?

This isn’t something I’ve really been able to examine very well, because I can’t remember running into anyone at all with the same problem, but it might be a control thing. Same with the panic.

Although I don’t usually panic as much when there’s music I’m not in control of coming from speakers or things. And I can listen to people play musical instruments around me – I just can’t watch. I have to look away or cover my eyes and it’s better if there’s distance between me and them; people on stage, for instance.

Cipher,
I don’t have exactly the same feeling watching a musical performance, unless it’s really intense, but might it be some combination (granted the emotional shortcut that music can offer) of intimate emotional contact with the performer and vice-versa? A bit like the urge to avert your eyes when someone shares an embarrassing story from their life?

Then a diet involving grass fed cows (or whatever animal) and little or no grain might result in a lower animal death count? Habitat destruction might be an issue as well, though. Cows, at least, are notorious for needing lots of land and thus destroying large amounts of wilderness.

Any suggested alternatives to the typical diet (typical modern German diet, in this case), if suggested for ethical reasons as you’re doing here, would be in violation of Giliell’s insistence upon not being “ethical better than thou”, and “feel[ing] entitled to judge other people who make different choices.”

What I’m interested in disputing is the claim that there’s nothing ethically better about a veg* diet, as opposed to whatever the average person is eating. That’s why I spoke up, because that’s obviously wrong,

and I’m not much interested in playing pretend like meat-eaters always want to do on this issue. Nobody here who eats cattle actually refrains from consuming grain-fed cattle. Nobody here who eats chicken actually refrains from consuming grain-fed chickens. From my perspective, there is no point in talking about hypotheticals that make people feel better just to talk about which they then don’t go out and pursue.

It’s gross fiscal irresponsibility. Old Man Jenkins wouldn’t have lost his farm due to unpaid property taxes in the first place if he hadn’t invested his life savings in fog machines and infinitely-looping hallways in his ramshackle farmhouse.

And the Coyote (Famishius vulgaris ingeniusi) could have dined well every night of the week for the money he spent on Acme’s products.

“ACME: For fifty years, the leader in creative mayhem.”
–

*goes and gets a sword and jumps into a pond*

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
–

I can watch a musical performance, however, I prefer not to do so. I’d rather simply listen.

Hmm. Watching is often distracting*, but I like knowing how the performance happens, whereas listening to a recording keeps me guessing about a lot of things, so I feel like I’ve probably missed something. That and the sound is usually better when you’re right there in front of the action.

*Thus the need for repeated listening, and occasionally closing your eyes and zoning out so everyone thinks you’ve fallen asleep.

I just can’t watch. I have to look away or cover my eyes and it’s better if there’s distance between me and them; people on stage, for instance.

I know that I’m uncomfortable watching many types of strong emotion, and music can be similar. Maybe embarrassment squick, like MikeG said? I don’t think I’ve ever been really close to a performer, so I haven’t noticed if I have a reaction similar to yours.

It does bear kind of an emotional resemblance to someone being inside my personal space when I don’t want them to be.

I have a problem like this with a lot of songs that have lyrics, unless they are absurd, senseless lyrics. But the worst is when it’s piped through speakers in a store. The storytelling becomes emotional pollution if I can’t turn it off. Emotive music without lyrics, not a problem for me.

No, that does not follow. The fact that they’re grain-fed (assuming all of them are) says nothing about their quantity. You might eat lots and lots of grain-fed chickens, or rarely have a meal that doesn’t contain at least some kind of meat.

You are lying, Alethea, since you didn’t write that shit, you don’t live by it,

and since you haven’t admitted ,a href=”http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/06/01/episode-cccxxxiii-eyjafjallajokull/comment-page-2/#comment-353866″>your earlier lies.

I am so fucking bored about how you make universal statements which are ludicrous over-generalisations,

But again, I don’t do that. You are dishonest in trying to insist that I do.

When we get the Sb comments back, I’ll be able to point to earlier discussions in which I’ve been explicit in saying that not everyone could do it at this time.

What I’m generally careful to point out, time and time again, is that these conversations are taking place on certain blogs, with certain demographics of readers, people who generally could go vegan at this time. That’s quite a distance from your implication here, Alethea.

pose false dichotomies,

Not true.

and then shift goalposts.

You are a liar, Alethea. My position here has been consistent since my very first post on Pharyngula in 2008. You always want to act like I’m saying everybody on Earth can and therefore should go vegan tomorrow. You are a liar.

BORED.

You can fuck off any time you want.

Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays

I am so fucking bored about how you make universal statements which are ludicrous over-generalisations,

But again, I don’t do that. You are dishonest in trying to insist that I do.

When we get the Sb comments back, I’ll be able to point to earlier discussions in which I’ve been explicit in saying that not everyone could do it at this time.

What I’m generally careful to point out, time and time again, is that these conversations are taking place on certain blogs, with certain demographics of readers, people who generally could go vegan at this time. That’s quite a distance from your implication here, Alethea.

pose false dichotomies,

Not true.

and then shift goalposts.

You are a liar, Alethea. My position here has been consistent since my very first post on Pharyngula in 2008. You always want to act like I’m saying everybody on Earth can and therefore should go vegan tomorrow. You are a liar.

I haven’t stopped by TET in a while, and was sorry to hear of your loss, Caine. The photo of The Boys brought me to tears.

In other news, we lost Sasha-kitteh just before Memorial Day weekend. She died at home, in her sleep. Her last few days were spent outside in the sunshine, napping on the porch. She would have been 20 this coming October. The kids took it pretty hard but, being kids, have pretty much gotten over it. I still have my moments.

I’m sure we’ll be getting more kittehs soon, but I want to have the carpets cleaned first. Sasha gave up trying to get all the way to the litter box before the end.

You try so hard, and get nowhere, SGBM. You’re just a sad, lonely, bitter little authoritarian who gets what few jollies he can half-assing science and being an emotionally abusive bully here. You don’t make me angry with your ridiculous pseudosophy (which would be embarrassing in a maladjusted 15 year old boy), you just make me feel pity for you.

Survived the bridal shower. If I ever get married, I’m not doing anything even remotely like that.

Good call, they suck.

If you get married, do what you want to do and don’t let anyone pressure you into doing otherwise. :)

Janine:

Now I am flashing back to the Sealab 2021 episode when Murphy is trapped under the cola machine and the cleaning robot is wearing a necklace made of his teeth that get knocked out bwhen the soda machine sends a can flying at Murphy’s face.

Also, The Mr. and I went out for dinner tonight, and though our target restaurant was closed, the place we ended up trying for the first time ever was holyshitamazing. I had the most amazing seitan with lots of amazing veggies and mango salsa and a perfect beer. Expensive, moreso than we planned, but the portions were colossal and damn, that was amazing.

What I’m generally careful to point out, time and time again, is that these conversations are taking place on certain blogs, with certain demographics of readers, people who generally could go vegan at this time.

So what? I’m an omnivore with strongly carnivorous leanings. This is the point where I say GFY.

That was definitely one of the best thwarted-original-plan whims we’ve had in a while. Always nice to find new places, and this one was not only vegetarian, but had tons of Mr.-friendly (cow milk free) stuff.

I now continue to try to figure out who all the people are in the sideshow group photo he got me. I have about half figured out.

My killfile works again!
This is not a veiled announcement that I’m killfiling anyone in this thread. I’m just proud of myself that I fixed it. Although the fix was so painfully obvious that I shouldn’t really be proud of myself.
(Did you know that Greasemonkey has a little checkmark next to the word “Enabled” when it’s enabled? The fact that it says “Enabled” doesn’t mean it is. …I KNOW THAT NOW)

TLC @ #444: Cosigned. Nobody here, generally, is unaware of the benefits and downsides of a herbivorous diet. Those who haven’t have good fucking reasons for their choice, just as the veg*ans here do. Are you their doctor? No? STFU and STFD with the helpful “advice”.

Diet policing is fucking inane whether it’s based on animal rights, fatphobia, or being just a regular busybody asshole.

Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays

Giliell made a claim about facts. I responded to that claim. That’s all that’s happened here. You respond to me, and then I respond to you. You can’t honestly claim that I’m “diet policing” when I’m responding first to claims about facts and then responding to comments directed to me.

So what? I’m an omnivore with strongly carnivorous leanings. This is the point where I say GFY.

There is something seriously wrong with the way you interact with other people, Coyote, if you think that other people should be able to make claims about facts but I shouldn’t be able to respond.

I think you need to understand that other people are allowed to share in public spaces. You don’t have to agree with what’s being said. But people you disagree with are allowed to say things.

You can respond all you like, dude, but other people can respond to you as well. Perhaps take your own point at #449? Because when you make inane comments about how everyone can go vegan, that’s fucking stupid.

TLC @ #444: Cosigned. Nobody here, generally, is unaware of the benefits and downsides of a herbivorous diet. Those who haven’t have good fucking reasons for their choice, just as the veg*ans here do. Are you their doctor? No? STFU and STFD with the helpful “advice”.

Diet policing is fucking inane whether it’s based on animal rights, fatphobia, or being just a regular busybody asshole.

Giliell made a claim about facts. I responded to that claim. That’s all that’s happened here. You respond to me, and then I respond to you. You can’t honestly claim that I’m “diet policing” when I’m responding first to claims about facts and then responding to comments directed to me.

+++++
But in your case, Happiestsadist, it’s unlikely that you are capable of seeing how badly fucked up your behavior is,

if you’re not even able to acknowledge that it’s uncontroversially bullying to try to hurt someone with “lol you have no friends” rubbish.

I must admit, that surprised me. I’m simultaneously proud and appalled that you really are a worse person than me, just as I suspected.

You never eat the meat of any nonhuman animal fed by grain. Or any products from grain-fed animals – milk, cream, cheese, sour cream, butter, whey, eggs,… Even at restaurants or friends’ houses. You’re totally positive about this. Hell, you’re almost like a vegan (except for your narrow focus). But not all preachy and ethical and shit.

Back from honeymoon, grueling drive and got back just in time to load up the car again and go to pride. Huzzah! The likely hood of any ceremony or Honeymoon pictures showing up anywhere is currently unknown (though I do have some decent amateur vid of sea turtles eating :-p )

@Caine: Sympathy for pet loss :(

@Talk about inefficient foods, someone mentioned using goats or rabbits to which I laugh; PSHAW! To get really efficient results you have to start move agribusiness away from vertebrates all together and start promoting invertebrates! I think we can get Americans to embrace it if we market locusts as “land prawns”

@SGBM: Looking at it from a consequence POV, I’ve decided the best move is to stay out of the discussion about you regardless of any personal feelings. Nothing else to add, I just thought you might be tickled by that not-irony :-p

Pride was fun…save for an awful Lady Gaga impersonator who scared our dogs

Dude, your projection is almost as pathetic as your posturing. And this “nuh-uh, you’re the bully!” tactic when called out on your more or less constant bully and wankery toward others is a hallmark of an abuser, as has been pointed out here.

Also, I love that you think the worst insult you can come up with for me is that I’m like you. Makes your defences kinda sad.

As far as my comment to TLC, it was sparked by your insistence on veganism for all, however, as should be incredibly obvious by my referencing other types of diet-policing. You think every song is about you, don’t you?

Going to hate myself for this, but SGBM because your stated consequentalism interests me I have to ask, have you thought of the issue beyond just physical or economic limitations on going vegan? How do cultural or psychological limitations play into that.

Ms Crip Dyke & I had a month together, 1/2 with her on vacation in my town while I worked and 1/2 while in her town with her working, me (mostly) on vacation (I had a couple lectures to give). Leaving at the end was darn hard.

I’ll make room for y’all . . .just lemme burrow under some macaroni for a minute.

Cipher, I don’t blame you. There is something comforting about having a hidey-hole. I used to lovelovelovelove refrigerator boxes as a kid. I’d make a secret cave, or my mom would help me make it into a house by cutting window panes and making a peaked roof. Best toy ever, better than anything I got from the store.

Mike and Nutmeg, yeah, I definitely do think that has something to do with it. There’s also a control issue going on that I’m increasingly sure of, because it doesn’t only happen when the person is noticeably emotional – I feel vulnerable and like I will lose myself (I actually have a strong fear that I will cease to exist, which I acknowledge doesn’t make any sense).

SGBM, about the lyrics, that’s actually really interesting. I have no idea what it means, but it’s interesting :)

Cipher, I don’t blame you. There is something comforting about having a hidey-hole. I used to lovelovelovelove refrigerator boxes as a kid. I’d make a secret cave, or my mom would help me make it into a house by cutting window panes and making a peaked roof. Best toy ever, better than anything I got from the store.

Hehehe. Yep.

Cipher @ #459: I too want a nest. Blanket forts are also fun as an adult. But yes, as a claustrophile, a nice, enclosed nest would be perfect.

I also fall asleep in MRIs.

Huh! I doubt I’d be able to do the last bit since they’re loud, but “claustrophile” is a good word for what I am. I also have an easier time sleeping if I am able to press against a wall, and at minimum I must have a heavy comforter (which makes sleeping really difficult when it’s very hot).

And this “nuh-uh, you’re the bully!” tactic when called out on your more or less constant bully and wankery toward others

Clearly what I said was that you’re more of a bully than me. I don’t think I’m well placed to decide whether I’m a bully or not; it’s debateable.

But what’s clear is that you are trying to hurt me in a way that I would never try to hurt anyone. I would never try to make someone feel bad about being lonely. I’m lucky that I’m not lonely, so I just find that behavior from you appalling. If I were lonely, I imagine it would be extremely hurtful.

You’re really shameless, aren’t you.

is a hallmark of an abuser, as has been pointed out here.

I understand how my words could be triggering to you, and I’m not going to deny your experience,

but the factual claims here are based upon a false assumption of intimacy. I’m not betraying you, because there is no trust between us.

I hear you about the comforter thing. I don’t understand how people can sleep without that sort of pressure. I wish there was such a thing as non-warm comforters for the summertime. I like having a pillow one the side of me.

YES to the sleeping under the pressure of heavy quilts. I need that too. I also can’t standbeing the slightest bit too hot when I sleep. So I will crank up the air conditioner in my room to morgue temperature and pile on the blankets. Most people find this perverse, but it’s really the only way I can sleep comfortably if the outside temperature is above 60 degrees F. I’ve been known to leave the window cracked in the dead of New England winter. It’s not that I want to be cold, it’s that it’s too easy to get too hot.

I’m going to guess that this is also the crux of why people feel so strongly one way or another about how you frame conversations.

Ing, if you could show me an example of where I’m talking about someone who isn’t already talking about me, I’d appreciate the pointer.

I really do think that people should be treated as people — no matter how much I dislike any individual — instead of as problems. I try to do this by addressing people rather than talking past them and about them. Even bad people are subjects, not objects.

So if you see me doing otherwise, I’d appreciate it if you let me know.

How do cultural or psychological limitations play into that.

Well obviously animal-rights folk are trying to change cultures. Every activist of every kind is trying to change cultures. So it’s no more an issue than it is for any other kind of activism.

Psychological limitations, I think it’s an unusual and rare hypothetical, but if there are some individuals who for some psychological reason have a much higher barrier, then at such time as mosst of the culture is vegan we should have the resources to give them whatever support they desire.

*manyhugs* and much sympathy for Caine. Sorry to hear about Chas. I’m glad that at least it was quiet and quick.
–
And *hugs* and sympathy for Crip Dyke, too. Memory has its downsides. :(
–*hug* and *courage* for Katherine.
–

Heh. That would be terrible, wouldn’t it? I mean, not really more terrible than anything else, or at least not so much that we ought to talk to anyone about it.

You’re the most interesting anti-ethical-eating person in the world….

8| Depends on what interests you, I guess. (sarcasm)

Not to stray too far off from discussing the discussion of how the discussion is going, but I figure the “grass-fed”/”grain-fed” labels could be a bit misleading, aren’t they? Are there any livestock which are only fed grasses or in pastures or whatever? Or don’t they rely on a lot of feed grains as well (just not as much, or not entirely, as some grain-fed livestock)?

Ing, if you could show me an example of where I’m talking about someone who isn’t already talking about me, I’d appreciate the pointer.

I really do think that people should be treated as people — no matter how much I dislike any individual — instead of as problems. I try to do this by addressing people rather than talking past them and about them. Even bad people are subjects, not objects.

So if you see me doing otherwise, I’d appreciate it if you let me know.

I don’t understand how this is a appropriate or reasonable response to what I said. I said that people are reacting strongly because you may frame the discussion as about them rather than about a subject.

Heavy blankets creep me out. When I was a kid, sleeping in the upper floor of an old farmhouse, we had some old “comforters” that were several inches thick, with no airspace in them at all—they were just layers of plain cloth, with another layer stuck on when the outer layer got greasy. I could not pick them up—I couldn’t even drag them up onto the bed without losing my grip. They were just heavy and cold and slick and dirty.

I do like a cold room, though, with lots of snuggly blankets. I just put a set of flannel sheets on my bed (with polar bear print—found at a garage sale) and almost always prefer flannel sheets.

I remember as an adult realizing that I didn’t have to keep the upper sheet tucked in and stretched out. Cuddled up in flannel is comfortable to me, now.

In summer, I’ll sleep with nothing over me at all, (or on me), if I can, but that took a while to get used to, also. Being too hot to sleep is awful.

I do need a headboard on my beds, though. I tend to crawl up toward the head, and will work my way up and out of a sleeping bag, say. Maybe I am just trying to keep the pillows mashed up high enough to support my head.

I don’t understand how this is a appropriate or reasonable response to what I said. I said that people are reacting strongly because you may frame the discussion as about them rather than about a subject.

Ing, okay, I must have misunderstood you.

Yeah, I’ll say to somebody “what you are doing is harmful and you should stop.” If I’m addressing that person, then I’m treating them as a subject, not an object.

If I had a million dollars we wouldn’t have to walk to the store
If I had a million dollars we’d take a limousine ’cause it costs more
If I had a million dollars we wouldn’t have to eat Kraft dinner
“But we would eat Kraft dinner.”
“Of course we would, we’d just eat more.”
“And buy really expensive ketchups with it.”
“That’s right, all the fanciest Dijon ketchups.”

As SpokesKraftDinner, I’m quite interested in asking you your official position on BareNakedLadies.

I understand that cows aren’t really able to digest grain properly—their internals are set for grass. I wonder how that affects their methane output, and if that is relevant to the greenhouse gas issue. (I’ll go learn something … )

It was a conversation at least in part about the ethics of eating and factory farming. Several people – including, IIRC, some of those expressing disdain for the whole idea of ethically refusing to consume the products of the factory farming system – started talking and commiserating about getting refuge from the conversation by “nesting” behaviors. I might be alone in this, but when I think of nesting and burrowing and the like it brings to mind my connections to other animals, and the natural behaviors of some of the animals that are prevented by the vicious factory-farming system, as described by JSF in the book at my link.

Ahh, I sort of thought that was what you were getting at, but it seemed rather a stretch. Seeing as I used the term to refer to a small, enclosed space being desirable for sensory reasons, in agreement with Cipher. Whose initial comment seemed less a refuge-related comment, and more of a tangent based on childhood nostalgia. Though really, getting refuge from boring, whiny AR people repeating the same things that come up every time the subject is raised is also a worthwhile venture.