Jazz Girl wrote:That's it. It's getting fracking ridiculous now! Apparently Khar and EP have been reported on FFn as well. Alright, that's it. I get it. I really and truly do. By the letter of the law, the ToS state explicit sex or violence as a violation. And, yes, there is a reason for that. But, I will argue vehemently that the spirit of a site like FFn is the fact that it is a forum of open expression where people can freely post their creativity without interference. FFn has Terms of Service, yes. But, they are notoriously lax in enforcing those for the explicit reason that there should be a little personal responsibility amongst us to follow the posted warnings and guidelines, and that creativity of others should not be stifled because one is offended by it. If you are offended, don't read it. All the stories post ratings and warnings and the like. If you are offended, don't bloody read it. As for children, yes, we are aware that there are minors who troll the internet. But, that's where things like parental controls and parental monitoring come in really handy...in having the parents do their jobs of monitoring their child(ren)'s web usage. If you were to look at me and say these folks were reps of SM who want the stories pulled because of content and what we enjoy reading about her chaste little characters doing, that's one thing. But for one person or a few people to decide that what they perceive as inappropriate or offensive content is offensive to all of us and NO ONE should be able to read the stories is utterly assinine and self riteous and wrong. Butt out, don't read it and leave the rest of us the hell alone to enjoy a little distraction.

It's a real shame that FFn is pulling TT. I haven't read it yet, but it's the easiest way for me to read stories. Don't ask, but let me just say it is.

I understand wanting to protect children from explicit material, and I understand the TOS and why it exists. I'm not debating whether or not a young teen should be reading BDSM or not... because my opinion on the subject doesn't matter. Quite frankly, if a teen wants access to BDSM or other "inappropriate" material, they'll get their hands on it. My baby sister is almost sixteen years old and I cringe at the idea of her reading some of the more mature fan fiction's like the ones I read when I was her age. But the thing is, it's her choice to do that. Nobody threw it in her face and forced her to read it.

On a message board where its easy to stumble across mature material regardless of what thread you're in, I understand disallowing such graphic works. However, on a site like FFn where the stories are rated (albeit by the authors themselves), and warnings are posted... I do not think the author should take the blame if the reader is too young to be reading it. I believe in personal responsibility regardless of your age.

I do wonder though about the ratings... how far is too far? I mean, they have M-rated stories for mature as it is... where do they draw the line?

Jazz Girl wrote:That's it. It's getting fracking ridiculous now! Apparently Khar and EP have been reported on FFn as well. Alright, that's it. I get it. I really and truly do. By the letter of the law, the ToS state explicit sex or violence as a violation. And, yes, there is a reason for that. But, I will argue vehemently that the spirit of a site like FFn is the fact that it is a forum of open expression where people can freely post their creativity without interference. FFn has Terms of Service, yes. But, they are notoriously lax in enforcing those for the explicit reason that there should be a little personal responsibility amongst us to follow the posted warnings and guidelines, and that creativity of others should not be stifled because one is offended by it. If you are offended, don't read it. All the stories post ratings and warnings and the like. If you are offended, don't bloody read it. As for children, yes, we are aware that there are minors who troll the internet. But, that's where things like parental controls and parental monitoring come in really handy...in having the parents do their jobs of monitoring their child(ren)'s web usage. If you were to look at me and say these folks were reps of SM who want the stories pulled because of content and what we enjoy reading about her chaste little characters doing, that's one thing. But for one person or a few people to decide that what they perceive as inappropriate or offensive content is offensive to all of us and NO ONE should be able to read the stories is utterly assinine and self riteous and wrong. Butt out, don't read it and leave the rest of us the hell alone to enjoy a little distraction.

AMEN!!!!!

You said it, Caryn!!!

DOUBLE AMEN!!

As usual Caryn, you speak to my heart in the way that I struggle at times to put into words. But, darn it leave "our stories" alone!! Who ever these "people or person" are get a life, you do not need to be the smut police for the whole fanfic world. Mind your own business!! OK rant over!

ringswraith wrote:So, with all these tirades, I'm beginning to wonder- is this group targeting all M-rated fanfiction? Or just specifically Twilight-related ones?

David~ I don't know. I don't even know if there is a targeted advance. But, what I do know is that two of the authors targeted have been hugely outspoken and active against the rampant plagiarism on FFn. Does that have something to do with it? I can't say yes or no. But, I can say, it really doesn't matter. Regardless, if it is only Twilight or if it's Potter and all the rest. For me, the point is that no one out there other than ME, MYSELF and I has the right to dictate to me what I should, can or will read. That there is an individual or individuals out there attempting to do so snaps my teeth together in a way that I can barely put into words.

~~UoEM Discussion~~

MissP~ hmmmmmmm, hahhahahahaa. I have to say, I actually prefer stories where I can despise Jacob freely and without reservation. What can I say? I just don't like him. In those few fics where I have approved of him, he has had to do A LOT to gain my approval. And in this story, it's a highlight for me. As for Charlie, I could not agree more. I know he doesn't (at least I hope not) understand the whole story. I have a feeling that, much like most survivors of relationship abuse, Bella was fairly tightlipped about the details of Jacob's treatment of her. But, really? A law enforcement officer, the Chief of Police none the less, making excuses for a man getting drunk, breaking into a home, HIS home, and then harassing a woman, HIS daughter??? Charlie, you need to wake the hell up.

Jazz Girl wrote:... But, what I do know is that two of the authors targeted have been hugely outspoken and active against the rampant plagiarism on FFn. Does that have something to do with it? I can't say yes or no. But, I can say, it really doesn't matter. Regardless, if it is only Twilight or if it's Potter and all the rest. For me, the point is that no one out there other than ME, MYSELF and I has the right to dictate to me what I should, can or will read. That there is an individual or individuals out there attempting to do so snaps my teeth together in a way that I can barely put into words.

Teeth snapping indeed! I am totally with you Caryn, I can almost feel my blood boiling. And even when you are in your angry state, you do put your point across so well, being able to say exactly what a lot of us are thinking. I only wish I could be so eloquent. When I get irritated my potty mouth just ramps up to top gear!

According to several HP authors on Twilighted, they are also being asked to remove work that is considered NC-17 or higher. The feeling there is that it isn't necessarily a person, but possibly admin at ffn has decided not to allow those items on. The reason for that is this, ffn doesn't get caught in many parental filters (ours included, and we filter everything!) because it is not an "adult" oriented site. Our school district had to manually block it. Obviously, a school can't let it's children freely roam on ffn. Twilighted and other sites with the screening button are automatically blocked. I agree that it seems that someone is targeting only the popular and outspoken authors, and it makes me angry. If ffn wants to get rid of all the rated R and above or NC-17 and above, they should be targeting EVERYONE equally. I really feel sorry for those authors who have been singled out. It must be terrible to loose that fan base.

I'm not trying to pick on any one person, but I do want to quote this, because it encapsulates neatly the entire issue:

For me, the point is that no one out there other than ME, MYSELF and I has the right to dictate to me what I should, can or will read.

That really is not the point. You can read--and write--whatever you want. However, you do not have any sort of "right" whatsoever to do so on an internet site that someone else owns. We who use FF.net use it by the good graces of those who maintain it and pay for the server space. That would not be anyone ranting on this thread about how unfair FF.net is being. Even if they're cherry picking which stories to dump (and yes, that's not "fair," whatever "fair" means in this context), it's still up to the site owners to run the site however they wish.

I find it rather baffling actually, the amount of anger that pours out toward something that we are using for FREE. That includes all the ranting that goes on when FF.net is down, or doesn't send update notices, or whatever the latest complaint with the site is.

If you want to write BDSM or NC/17 or whatever, why not create your own site for it, and then you will have the literal legal right to do whatever you want there, and you can make it as wide open accessible as you wish. Just create one big BDSM fanfic site. It's really that simple. If you say "I don't want to do that/can't do that/can't afford to do that, well, that's essentially saying "I should be able to share porn for free on the internet on a site someone else provides, because I can't afford to pay for any of it but I have a 'right' to it, and nobody should be able to limit my access to it."

Really? Does anyone really believe that is a "right?" A desire, certainly, but a "right," something legally protected?

And no, I certainly did not report anyone's fiction for breaking any rules. I have zero interest in reading any BDSM whatsoever, but I don't care in the slightest who writes and posts it. I have enough trouble keeping track of my own work without policing anyone else's. I just understand the bigger picture: Complaining about not being able to do whatever you want without boundaries, particularly when you bear none of the cost nor responsibility is naive to the extreme. It's also very 21st century American, but that's another issue entirely.

Last edited by Essay33 on Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Where I am not understood, it shall be concluded that something very useful and profound is couched underneath." --Jonathan Swift, A Tale of a Tub

I would like to point out that fanfiction itself is what could be shut down, not just stories, but the whole site if they are found to in some way have neglected their site. If the Lex began posting porn, it could also be shut down. The Lex keeps their boards clean and teen friendly not only because it is what they stand for, but because it is morally and legally right.

By the way, unless I have my facts very wrong, JK Rowling nearly stopped all fanfiction of HP for precisely this reason. Authors were not only writing but also posting stories that were not what she wanted and were not appropriate for the teens that read them.

Essay33 wrote:I'm not trying to pick on any one person, but I do want to quote this, because it encapsulates neatly the entire issue:

For me, the point is that no one out there other than ME, MYSELF and I has the right to dictate to me what I should, can or will read.

That really is not the point. You can read--and write--whatever you want. However, you do not have any sort of "right" whatsoever to do so on an internet site that someone else owns. We who use FF.net use it by the good graces of those who maintain it and pay for the server space. That would not be anyone ranting on this thread about how unfair FF.net is being. Even if they're cherry picking which stories to dump (and yes, that's not "fair," whatever "fair" means in this context), it's still up to the site owners to run the site however they wish.

I find it rather baffling actually, the amount of anger that pours out toward something that we are using for FREE. That includes all the ranting that goes on when FF.net is down, or doesn't send update notices, or whatever the latest complaint with the site is.

If you want to write BDSM or NC/17 or whatever, why not create your own site for it, and then you will have the literal legal right to do whatever you want there, and you can make it as wide open accessible as you wish. Just create one big BDSM fanfic site. It's really that simple. If you say "I don't want to do that/can't do that/can't afford to do that, well, that's essentially saying "I should be able to share porn for free on the internet on a site someone else provides, because I can't afford to pay for any of it but I have a 'right' to it, and nobody should be able to limit my access to it."

Really? Does anyone really believe that is a "right?" A desire, certainly, but a "right," something legally protected?

And no, I certainly did not report anyone's fiction for breaking any rules. I have zero interest in reading any BDSM whatsoever, but I don't care in the slightest who writes and posts it. I have enough trouble keeping track of my own work without policing anyone else's. I just understand the bigger picture: Complaining about not being able to do whatever you want without boundaries, particularly when you bear none of the cost nor responsibility is naive to the extreme. It's also very 21st century American, but that's another issue entirely.

Don't mistake my intent. And please don't piece-meal my argument. I am well aware of the legalities of the issue and how they effect the greater world. However, no one stopped and offered that as an option did they. They merely said, someone complained and off you go. I would fully support an "adults only" section on FFn. I would gladly support it in the way I do other sites, using their links to visit vendors and even donating to support their administrative costs. I'm not delusional. My point was merely that one individual or group of individuals is now taking it upon themselves to selectively complain about certain authors and stories that THEY deem inappropriate. If it is an administrator of FFn, don't you think they would have sent a blanket notification to all their authors saying they were cracking down or tightening the reins.

I'm not angry at FFn, nor do I hurl hate at them for their technical fail. I am well aware of the fact that I enjoy these stories in convenience because of the hard work that they do. I place complete and total blame on the person or persons now playing FanFiction Morality Police. That is who I am angry with. That is who is infringing on my rights to read and enjoy that which I deem appropriate for me. If I have to go to a different site or do whatever, that makes no never mind for me. But, it is not at all the right or responsibility for anyone other than me to decide what is right for me or any other individual to read.

Essay33 wrote: Complaining about not being able to do whatever you want without boundaries, particularly when you bear none of the cost nor responsibility is naive to the extreme. It's also very 21st century American, but that's another issue entirely."

Wow, judgement much. I bear equal cost and responsibility in all activities in which I engage. I never said there should not be boundaries. In fact, I'm a big believer in boundaries and rules. However, my inclination is to say that providing alternatives is preferable to forcing your beliefs on others before summarily removing their freedom of experience.