Trolls don't particularly care for info like that getting out. So, let's just keep doing what we do, the best that we can, and the facts will speak for themselves and make them look like fools for defending the 1%.

Also, the "Occupy Cabal" does nothing to attract people and only belittles the forum, in my opinion.

Yes the point system has some value as it enables people who do not want to post a chance to participate by voting with stinkles and twinkles,

But we have both been here long enough to know points have been manipulated both up and down, and most all of us have been victims and in some cases beneficiaries of this manipulation at one time or another

Having a system where all our points were erased at regular intervals, I believe would be an improvement as fewer..new people would feel intimidated to post here

Already many new people who come here with good intent may feel a bit leery to comment due to not having the understanding that most of us have, as to what has been going on for the past 30 plus years

And the current point system probably adds to that uneasiness, as well as all the vulgar exchanges on here

We have to make new voices feel welcome, and that their opinions count, otherwise this forum will suffer for a lack of new blood

I post very thoughtful comments and responses...on sensitive issues to people who for the most part are not partisan Democrats, hence are able to think more clearly

You exposed yourself in your base ways, and your nefarious agenda when you tried to link me with Thomas Friedman's economic policies while on a thread where shadz, Renneye and i were having a very thoughtful discussion on a very important "issue" the on-going Israeli/Palestinian crisis

Save your energy on the links as I do not read them

Although it may be too late to broaden your horizons, I suggest that you get some fresh air as I am going to do on my bicycle this afternoon

Look at this in a positive way shooz...it will be invigorating, and when you get back, you will be ready to do some real heavy-duty villifying of anyone who is not a partisan Democrat....*lol

Apparently someone placed Joseph Heller in charge of the forum. Now it seems no one new may comment until you've commented enough to build up a reputation. Makes it difficult though to build up a reputation commenting when you aren't allowed to comment. I've re-read the rules and they haven't been updated to explain this change.

I never said that they were meaningless - I said they were/are being abused by shills/socks/bots. I think it nice to be able to symbolically pat someone on the back for a good comment - and the other way they count is the best comments of the day board.

Very true, I don't know what you've personally said about the points, but then you didn't say very much directly to me about it at all. For all I know my post here and on the other thread helped a little to bring attention to something and get it fixed.

I was too liberal with my use of the word everyone. When I've read comments referring to them in the past the general impression I got was that most people won't admit to them holding any personal value for them. Since I do believe we all like to have our ideas affirmed I suspect it's more a matter of people not wanting to admit they place value on their own total.

The chem in chemlady refers my job as a chemistry teacher in a public school. I'm not involved in the industry side of chemistry at all. There is some trickle down inconvenience to regulation, keeping MSDS file on things like vinegar, table salt, or alcohol seems like overkill in my specific situation but it isn't that big of a deal.

There will probably always be trolls. Maybe the temporary snafu over posting comments drove some underground for a while, but they always seem to come back.

To be honest if you're teaching Regent's Chemistry in New York you concentrate on the material. They pay me to teach basic chemistry. I can bring in aspects of global warming, ozone depletion, problems of chemical waste and pollution, acidification of the oceans,eutrophication, acid rain and so on, but these are mere footnotes to the more mundane task of teaching basic chemistry. Proton, neutron, electron, balancing equations, reaction types, acid-base theories. Along the way I hope I'm effective in teaching them how to think and how to learn for themselves.

I don't support charter schools, most of the successes they can claim are due largely to the sample they take. It's easy to show good results when your population is cherry picked. There is an often repeated analogy about public education. It's short so I'll bore you with it if you don't mind.

A baker gave a speech to teachers telling them how if he had their success rate with his blueberry muffins he'd be out of business. Afterwards a teacher asked him what he would do if a farmer sent him a bad batch of blueberries. He of course replied, "I'd send them back". The teacher then quietly told him, we can't send any of our students back, we have to work with all the blueberries.

In the beginning the charter schools draw in the best "blueberries" from homes where parents want their children to learn. You give me a kids from homes where education is important and they will learn with anyone. I'm not surprised that some of their test results were fabricated. Once they are given all the blueberries it's going to come down to a good, dedicated, and experienced teaching staff.

Don't feed the trolls is always a good plan. If the activity doesn't draw a response it simply wastes the troll's time. Down votes don't collapse a comment the way they did in the early days so an idea stands on it's own merits. The number of points is irrelevant as long as your ideas can be expressed.

Sorry, but I don't want racists, bigots, sexist, gun nutters, agists, or any number of other ist's, to garner the same recognition as issue based commentary, or the stuff of people trying to ideate on rebuilding society.

I agree they are certainly important to the troll. A thread like this may make him think his down voting is having an effect.

Just stating my opinion in general on it. Personally I do more reading here then commenting and don't vote on comments at all. The point totals seem in general to point to how long someone has been active on here and how much they comment.

More assault by austerity and neoliberal privatisation. These are important links to important stories. Thanx & solidarity @ all those involved. I don't normally get involved on internal housekeeping threads like this one but the matters alluded to here are very real.

I too have noticed the clearly coordinated 'stinkle-bots' and some regular posters have been targeted for this kind of behaviour for a while now. Right-wingnuts and students home on holidays and / or employed by any number of 'right wing think tanks' & 'libertarian' organisations as well as the free lance ill wishers are as good a guess as any as culprits. Long term 'disruptors' who wish this forum to die, are of course still very much in the frame. The purpose is to demoralise and disrupt and sow distrust. They will all fail.

We must simply be stoic, show some solidarity, not get too preoccupied with unnecessary squabbling (& mea culpa I'm sure, lol) and carry on regardless but losing that B-S ''Cabal'' crap on the banner would be appreciated because it is well past it's sell by date now and no longer 'funny' if indeed it ever was. + :

''Many people subjected to capitalist downturns sooner or later question the system. Can societies do better than a system that imposes recurring downturns and their associated suffering and immense costs? Capitalism's defenders have rarely engaged such questioning. Instead they offer some comfort and much distraction in response to pressures from downturns' victims. Comfort takes the form of unemployment compensation, food stamps and welfare. Distraction takes the form of public theater: well-dressed politicians inside imposing government buildings urgently debating economic policies as journalists and economists declare those debates to be important.

''Even after capitalist downturns end, the political theater continues. Austerity's champions insist that their policies ended the downturn or would have done so sooner if only they had been adopted. Stimulus advocates make parallel claims. More government spending does at least modestly counter or moderate economic downturns, while austerity usually worsens them. Nonetheless, the old debate persists. Capitalism's downturns keep recurring and with them the need to distract those suffering the attendant pains and costs.''

Re. ''Modern Monetary Theory'', you're absolutely right about its effect on pseudo-Libertarian 'Austrian Economics', which no one gives a flying fck about in Austria or anywhere else in Europe because it is such palpable bunkum and so very ignorant about money creation and in denial about society at large.

'Austrians' in the US seem to have no idea who Carl Menger was and what he said about 'sound money' despite the fact that he was essentially, one of the founding fathers of 'Austrian School'. Americans like Paul Ryan and Rand Paul talk about 'Libertarianism' & ''Austrian Economics'', as though they think they know what they are talking about - whereas they are only really blowing smoke out of their asses & just being the bastard offspring of Ayn 'Psycho' Rand, as they do the bidding of The Corporations,ALEC and the associated Koch suckers. If it's a ''cabal'' you seek - look there ! Finally I'll append and recommend :

''The question today is whether cities and counties can afford not to set up their own municipal banks, both to protect their money from confiscation and to take advantage of the very low interest rates and other perks available exclusively to the banking club. A government that owns its own bank can keep the interest and reinvest it locally, resulting in government savings of an estimated 35% to 40% just in interest. Costs can be reduced, and taxes can be cut or services can be increased. Banking and credit can become public utilities, sustaining the local economy rather than mining it for private gain ; and banks can again become safe places to store our money.''

Everything in economics is theory. Mostly, a conspiracy theory, and even utter fucking nonsense. Like, the Fed, that supposedly uses the money supply to expand and contract employment. Total fucking nonsense. The population has increased 8-fold since the beginning of the 20th century. Laws of supply and demand? There is only demand. If they really applied, stock growth would be much easier to predict. I would recommend courses in statistics and probability and calculus to everyone. Right now, I would just recommend following what the banks are doing and what our law makers are doing to help them further their lawlessness.

Studying inequality in America reveals some facts that are truly hard to believe. Amidst all the absurdity a few stand out and we're seeing systemic corruption in banking and systemic collusion & ergo do see :

Oh, man, that is glum. Unless our government thinks the 1% will support them after the rest of us are starving, I'm at a loss to understand. Most people in the everyday world does not acknowledge what's happening. It's sad. But, I worry not about them. I worry about you and me, who just may give a shit.

It's probably not anything you don't know but hey, there's always the outside chance we either learn something or have something we think we know confirmed or we learn that there are new dots to join and clearer connections to make. This doc. film link won't be around long I don't think so I'm strongly recommending it to you. Never stop giving ''a shit'' and happy hunting ;-)

All these Friedmanite Chicago boys with their 'Austrian Fixations' but no idea about either Marx or Money Creation are such a bunch of pretentious, naive, doctrinaire, determinist, pseudo-scientists - whose abstractions have lead them up their own backsides and the world into a neoliberal hell hole.

Yet these scumbags and their IMF, World Bank 'Washington Consensus' have been leading the world up a garden path and down the river for so long now that it's well beyond a joke. Thank u for your very interesting links which I recommend to any and all readers interested in MMT & I'll append these too :

Prof. Wm. K. Black & Prof. Michael Hudson are part of the http://neweconomicperspectives.org/ & that is a helluva link right there shooz. Thanx though obviously I ain't read it yet but it's been bookmarked for later digestion and cogitation.

You're ''being attacked for speaking'' ?! Lol !! You can take it - as well as dish it out but if the shooz get worn out - go for boots or go for flip-flops but leave the 'DemoCrocs' at home ;-) & just keep laying down the facts as you see 'em !

What's wrong with the picture below ?!!! How about freezing the twinkle / stinkle voting for a while ?!! How about someone get a grip around here ?! How about jart or one of the coders pay a li'l attention around here despite how busy they are or what instant results they were hoping for as they were not minded that 'Revolutions Take Time' ? Oh, and how about losing that ''Cabal'' B-S ? Just sayin' ... + :

Thx for the notice - it is rather sad to see an individual (?) spend such dedicated time to looking up old comments of mine and then take the time to cycle through like 17 of their socks to vote down the comments as they find them. I am not the only one this sad-sack does this to either - SO - How Sad Is That Individual (?) ? Exactly how much time does it take to remove in the neighborhood of 10,000 pts. ? To what purpose? It does not hurt me in anyway.

It destroys the integrity of the forum, as did trashy's original sockpuppet/bot, invasion.

Please note too, some of the profoundly anti-occupy comments on the top comments board.

Destroying this forum was the intent of both trashy and ironbolt, but we can never be sure if the current attack is them or some other inheritor of their poisoned ideology. Whatever that might be, it isn't about Occupy.

I know this kind of thing doesn't actually hurt you, but it's just plain wrong, and even our detractors should have noticed and been in an
uproar by now.

ITs not up to you to be the grand inquisitor, regardless if the head hunter is your friend or not. Its not up to you to ask anyone of anything. Thats all you do is troll around all day accusing people and posting hate messages.

Whats the big deal with a forum point total requirement to vote? You don't like the idea that you will need to be a positive contributor to the forum? Or is it that you will have to bring socks out of hiding to get them qualified? Because seriously - you will still be able to make comments - that's the main thing isn't it? Being heard?

Because it is a nice way to give someone a pat on the back for making a good comment and it is still a legitimate way to say a comment stinks - that is as long as shills can't use bots & socks to fuck up the process.

Then only those who agree with who has the original voting population will ever have a chance to give someone a pat.

Ummmm sorry - BUT - NOT If legitimate comments are being made on topic to the posts - then those that agree with that comment can vote for it or ignore it - a comment made is worth a point. You feel a comment was improperly downvoted - copy the permalink and send it in to the site for review. But this reigns in a lot of the bot sock shill BULLSHIT.

The establishment does all sorts of stuff to predetermine whats "good" and whats "bad" .

Who is affected by bots? Last I knew the biggest problem here was people like Odin and PK getting the boot, amount others, and an overwhelming feeling across the country there is too much ontrol and censorship already.

Odin got booted for BS attacks on supporters that wanted to do support actions he didn't agree with. He was not censored - he got his say he was told where he was wrong and decided that he did not care and kept up with his attacks - this has been the same for many who have been booted - they didn't contribut to supporting OWS/Occupy they decided that it was their way or the Highway. GUESS WHAT? The site decided that they were wrong and as they were not listening to reason they were booted. BTW Odin is back and doing his own thing - he didn't go to the site to get reinstated - he just opened another account. Guess what ? He is still here making comments and posts and is voting. But he has not to "my" knowledge been attacking other supporters again. When it comes down to who has the final say???? THE SITE DOES.

"But apparently you R OK with some schmucks coming here and make no comments but cast thousands and thousands of downvotes. BTW on the street? that is not acceptable at this time either - those generally get arrested. Or for those self same schmucks to post crap to disrupt."

I'm not ok with it. But Im not going to start limiting other peoples say over it in the name of "protection".

Again, this is totally inline with everything else going on in the bigger scheme of things right now.

Ok, fair enough. But someone such myself would not have a say in what is a "good" comment or a "bad" one, and seems how we are all of a sudden into giving certain people privlages, whats the requirements?

Would actually sleeping on a sidewalk count? Would someone whom actually helped out with a variety of tasks count? Or would be up to an anonymous group to decide who was good comments/bad comments for the chance to "get into the club"?

But someone such myself would not have a say in what is a "good" comment or a "bad" one

Sure you would - you are already half way there to the proposed point total to allow you to vote - in the meantime you are being heard with every comment you make. In support of an idea or with expressing disagreement - but never for being an outright asshole would be the thing.

But apparently you R OK with some schmucks coming here and make no comments but cast thousands and thousands of downvotes. BTW on the street? that is not acceptable at this time either - those generally get arrested. Or for those self same schmucks to post crap to disrupt.

Stop trying to be an ass = " So only the one who set it up gets voting power? "

What I said was that the site owner has the final say. You got a problem with that - start your own site and let everyone do whatever they want - and then you can preach about how your site is so much better than this one. GO FOR IT.

That would frustrate the fly by night trolls that come in here and say the same idiotic insults they've been posting since the site went live, but I think the more serious infiltrators would have the patience to stick it out.

Trashy had well over 1,000pts by the time his bots were discovered for what they were.

I think, shooz, that the most dangerous trolls, are the silent trolls. The trolls we have no idea that they are here. They vote heavily, they use bots, they're supported by groups like ALEC, the NRA, the Republican Party etc.

The trolls who make comments are easy to bat back, and sometimes even provide us with a way to make our arguments, but the ones that log in just to vote mess with how the forum looks and how comments appear and that is a bigger problem, in my opinion, because we can't set them straight and leave our record next to theirs.

I agree that bots have absolutely no place here. And, I think it's not a bad idea to require people to post before they can vote, but we'd have to think about how to do that. I don't think it should be based on points but perhaps, merely the number of posts/comments, without regard to how many points someone has garnered.

In addition, there has never been a "twinkle team." That is a fabrication of Thrasymaque and a continued myth.

I'm thinking that as long as someone is posting they should be able to vote regardless of their points, but I'm not sure, lol. Certainly lowering the required points would be good.

I'm looking at DKA down below with -8. Now, I want to think a bot did that and that some idiot does not have 8 monikers that he logs in with. But, bot or idiot, if they have to be posting, that is quite a lot of work, right? So, maybe they have to be posting regularly to be able to vote. So, if someone doesn't post frequently enough they don't get to vote. I'm not sure, but something like that, maybe.

I know nothing about programming either, lol, but there has got to be a way to keep bots and people who vote but who don't post, off. How about people who make say 50 points worth of votes without making a single comment? Keep them off. Find some kind of threshold so that you have to earn you right to vote by posting. Maybe, if you haven't posted in 30 days, you can't vote. Something! We need something. But, it cannot be a popularity contest. And, surely, DKA's real points would be like 40,000. LOL.

Oh I meant that they vote 50 points (with regard to other people's comments) without making a single comment. So, therefore, they affect points without earning any themselves through posting, because these schmucks, like you say, don't post.

I definitely think the right to vote has to be earned more than by just signing in with a moniker. This is a confusing matter with lots of possibilities so sorry if I was confusing!

How about just one, that mostly sits in the background, using marketing skills to disrupt?

U mean RustyButtHeadBrucie?

Trashy had well over 1,000pts by the time his bots were discovered for what they were.

Difference would be no presto change-o new sock-o to fuck around-o on the immediate response to their getting booted. It would not be a twenty second recreation anymore - they would have to go through the process of getting 1000 pts every single time. No points = No BS Posts.

Still it would not be an instant presto change-o anymore - then improvements would have to be considered going forward from there. I thought it was pretty funny when the site took trashy-can's ability to PM away.

How so? Everyone still gets to comment. Besides - shills aren't anyone - they are attempts at disruption. So if a supporter of OWS/Occupy comes here and makes good contributions they will get the ability to make posts and make votes. Shills will have to work harder to be the disruptive shits that they intend to be.

If I had the power to make this change - do you think I would be asking about it? Do you think I would suggest it as a good idea to try? Rather then just going ahead and doing it? Some shit ( s ? ) is using bots and socks to make major attacks on participants here. No not just on me ( -10,000 pts ).

How much time or how many socks or bots does it take to remove that number of points? Now add that into all of the others who are or who have been attacked in the same way.

BTW?

Thats a road we started down a long time ago and this is where it has brought us.

BULLSHIT

I only have one vote to use on any given comment - plus or minus. If this can put a crimp in bot and shill activity I say it is a good thing. This is an OWS/Occupy support site - NOT - shill central.

Nope sorry - you have the freedom to go where ever you want to say your piece - even here - until one proves that they are being a schmuck - then the site reserves the right to boot the schmuck out the door. At which point said schmuck can go somewhere else to see if it will be accepted.

"Nope sorry - you have the freedom to go where ever you want to say your piece - even here - until one proves that they are being a schmuck - then the site reserves the right to boot the schmuck out the door. At which point said schmuck can go somewhere else to see if it will be accepted."

"Thats a road we started down a long time ago and this is where it has brought us.
BULLSHIT"

Im not talking about "we" as this forum, I'm talking about we as a country, as a group of humans interacting in a society with one another.

Theres a reason most occupys didnt want to create forums, they get overrun. That being said, if you are going to provide the platform then you have to make it free, otherwise its no different than the stuff we are fighting where certain people get to make decisions and we get stuck hoping maybe someday we get a shot.

Why not? You have to be a certain age for both. But I am not saying that a citizen should have to pass any sort of restriction to vote ( for real ). But we are not talking street - we are here talking about a forum site that was set up for the express purpose of supporting OWS/Occupy. I suppose with your freedom everywhere kick - that you are ok with some kids going to the YMCA and draining the pool because they are claiming the right to roller blade there - irregardless that the pool was set up for and already being used for swimming.

The statement as it stands ( as long as it has not been edited ) - " There should be plenty of empty ruins in Detroit to occupy. Go for it. " - seems to be just a sad statement of the economic ruin that has been subjected on the area.

Trolls don't particularly care for info like that getting out. So, let's just keep doing what we do, the best that we can, and the facts will speak for themselves and make them look like fools for defending the 1%.

Also, the "Occupy Cabal" does nothing to attract people and only belittles the forum, in my opinion.

The balance of power between workers and employers is completely lopsided. That is why collective bargaining was instituted in the first place. Without joining together, employees are raped and pillaged.

That's what I'm saying, and if you don't think a centralized wage picker wouldn't pit one set of workers against another, in an effort to keep those wages as low as possible?

I believe they would.

Bargaining units would form where they are needed, according to need..

The bugaboo, as I see it, is that some form of central organization would be need for training, oversight, enforcement, legal, translation and of course, calling strikes. Which could be done anywhere in the World, that would make them the most effective.

No more isolation. What is done to one worker, really is done to all workers.

"What is done to one worker, really is done to all workers." That is the big thing that people don't get. For example, exempt or salaried employees don't realize that the non-exempt hourly wages at the bottom actually drive their wages, so when the lower wages go down, so goes theirs.

Perhaps the broader the labor movement could become, the less likely it could be co-opted.