Bill Wilson is a man being used amazingly by God. Abandoned as a child, Bill is sold out to reach the most neglected in our world. They bus in around 20k kids a week in Brooklyn, and reach several thousand more through sidewalk sOnday schools.

15 years ago, God began a sidewalk SONday school minsistry here in Knoxville, TN, where we reach over 1,000 at-risk children per week with bible teaching. Inspired after hearing Bill Wilson speak at a conference, Knoxville Inner City Kids Outreach (KICKO) was born. http://www.kicko.org

There is a great neglect by the corporate church in this country. The reason we reach 1,000 kids a week is because no local congregation is willing to do it on their own. Even through this tough economy, church buildings continue to be constructed in our communites. Monies are spent in the millions for programs. Church goers are entertained in Broadway quality worship centers, with showmanship that is professional quality. Power point presentations, and high tech production that would make Hollywood jealous is becoming the norm. Yet, the simplest act to, "go and tell," is a great neglect of the modern church.

A question. What are the good works that God has prepared beforehand that you are walking in?
I had been a spectator Christian for the vast majority of my life. About eight years ago, sitting in a pew in church, I asked God, "Is this it? Surely you saved me for more." I was a bible reading, church going, Sunday school teaching Christian. I knew that Christ had saved me, Eph. 2:8-9, but what about Ephesians 2:10. All my 'Christian' life was defined essentially by what happened within the walls of a building. I still am a part of that congregation. In fact, God answered my prayer in that pew on that day. From that day God opened doors of ministry I never dreamed possible. Today, I cherish my role within the congregation even more. Congregational church used to define my Christian life. Now it is one of many facets to my Christian life. Yet I am more active, and more richly blessed by it. Strange, is it not?
If you are a new creature in Christ, you were created for good works. You were made for ministry. Are you ministering? Have you asked God to reveal this? Are you prepared to sacrifice to find it? It WILL require a sacrifice. Your time, effort, finances, etc. Be sure of that.

-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

jlay wrote:A question. What are the good works that God has prepared beforehand that you are walking in?

I had been a spectator Christian for the vast majority of my life. About eight years ago, sitting in a pew in church, I asked God, "Is this it? Surely you saved me for more." I was a bible reading, church going, Sunday school teaching Christian. I knew that Christ had saved me, Eph. 2:8-9, but what about Ephesians 2:10. All my 'Christian' life was defined essentially by what happened within the walls of a building. I still am a part of that congregation. In fact, God answered my prayer in that pew on that day. From that day God opened doors of ministry I never dreamed possible. Today, I cherish my role within the congregation even more. Congregational church used to define my Christian life. Now it is one of many facets to my Christian life. Yet I am more active, and more richly blessed by it. Strange, is it not?

If you are a new creature in Christ, you were created for good works. You were made for ministry. Are you ministering? Have you asked God to reveal this? Are you prepared to sacrifice to find it? It WILL require a sacrifice. Your time, effort, finances, etc. Be sure of that.

That is a good question: often no longer sought after in many spectrums of the church world today. Mostly due to lazy Grace teachings, but I digress - so off the soap box for now

People in the church need to come to the place where they ask - what am I do here sitting in Church every Sunday? There is a spot and things the Lord has for each person to do. Some may not be glamorous or in the spotlight but there is more than keeping the pew warm and the plate full.

So what are the good works we were created for? There are many answers but they must be found, sought after, and cultivated per the individual.

I was in Knoxville last week. It was hot. Also visited family North of Kingsport off Hwy 23 in VA. Nice area - love it. Even during this trip, ministry never stopped. Sometimes I stumbled a lot, others were a success, and I pray that I was at least a better reflection of Jesus to others than I was the day before!
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Thanks for your comments BW. All service begins with humility. A good guide is Romans 12. As you and I both know, there is nothing 'special' about us. God uses cracked pots. Some minsitry may be more visible than others, but that doesn't add to its importance. For the most part our efforts in the inner city of Knoxville go largely unnoticed. Most people do not know that urban youth is the fastest growing domestic mission field. Rarely are the one's actually walking in the works, the one's who are making the most noise to draw attention to themselves.

Romans 12: 1-8 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. (So worship isn't just singing songs on Sunday morning?) Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (We can know God's will in our lives? Conditionally. What are you conforming to?)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. (Humility. I can do nothing apart from Christ.) Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. (Everybody has a part to play.) If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

"So how do I find my place?" Find out where God is working in your community and join Him. Hopefully you belong to a church that is plugged into the local mission field. If not, you might need to look at a different congregation. If your congregation's funds are primarliy introverted, then you may need to at least ask, why? And this isn't just financial. A church should be hands on in the community.

One thing I especially grow tired of is all of the 'conference' Christianity. We have conferences for this and conferences for that. Everybody goes and hears some charasmatic speaker, gets all jazzed up, has their emotional high, and then they go right back to the same community and have the same results.

-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

Thanks for your comments BW. All service begins with humility. A good guide is Romans 12. As you and I both know, there is nothing 'special' about us. God uses cracked pots. Some minsitry may be more visible than others, but that doesn't add to its importance. For the most part our efforts in the inner city of Knoxville go largely unnoticed. Most people do not know that urban youth is the fastest growing domestic mission field. Rarely are the one's actually walking in the works, the one's who are making the most noise to draw attention to themselves.

Romans 12: 1-8 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. (So worship isn't just singing songs on Sunday morning?) Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (We can know God's will in our lives? Conditionally. What are you conforming to?)

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. (Humility. I can do nothing apart from Christ.) Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. (Everybody has a part to play.) If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

"So how do I find my place?" Find out where God is working in your community and join Him. Hopefully you belong to a church that is plugged into the local mission field. If not, you might need to look at a different congregation. If your congregation's funds are primarliy introverted, then you may need to at least ask, why? And this isn't just financial. A church should be hands on in the community.

One thing I especially grow tired of is all of the 'conference' Christianity. We have conferences for this and conferences for that. Everybody goes and hears some charasmatic speaker, gets all jazzed up, has their emotional high, and then they go right back to the same community and have the same results.

Maybe next time I'll come and visit you in Knoxville. I would like to see your mission work in action. That is how I got started, street witnessing to teens and people in downtown areas. Who knows, if you need someone to come out and lend a hand, I could come and do some meetings or outreach work in Knoxville. Myself and the music pastor from the Church I attend also play music and write songs. We call ourselves the The Deliverers, expect to put together a trail CD together in a few more months, and see what happens. We use humor and music often to break thru barriers.

Last Monday (8/9) and Wednesday(8/11), I was in Downtown Knoxville and even rode up the elevator into the Sphere. Nice Stage there too left over from 1982 World’s Fair. Has your church group use that for concerts to draw the youth too – like Franklin Graham does? It was so hot those days that not many people were about, only in the water park area where the fountains are. Knoxville is spread out and my wife and I like the area. We also like Nashville / Franklin area too.

And back to the topic - people do need to discover their place in the Church where they are at. Life is a mission field and we are the body of Christ in that field. You can't keep napp'n...
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Here are some pics to help you get a better idea of what Sidewalk SONday School really does. Hope they show up well.

-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

jlay wrote:A question. What are the good works that God has prepared beforehand that you are walking in?

I had been a spectator Christian for the vast majority of my life. About eight years ago, sitting in a pew in church, I asked God, "Is this it? Surely you saved me for more." I was a bible reading, church going, Sunday school teaching Christian. I knew that Christ had saved me, Eph. 2:8-9, but what about Ephesians 2:10. All my 'Christian' life was defined essentially by what happened within the walls of a building. I still am a part of that congregation. In fact, God answered my prayer in that pew on that day. From that day God opened doors of ministry I never dreamed possible. Today, I cherish my role within the congregation even more. Congregational church used to define my Christian life. Now it is one of many facets to my Christian life. Yet I am more active, and more richly blessed by it. Strange, is it not?

If you are a new creature in Christ, you were created for good works. You were made for ministry. Are you ministering? Have you asked God to reveal this? Are you prepared to sacrifice to find it? It WILL require a sacrifice. Your time, effort, finances, etc. Be sure of that.

That is a good question: often no longer sought after in many spectrums of the church world today. Mostly due to lazy Grace teachings, but I digress - so off the soap box for now

People in the church need to come to the place where they ask - what am I do here sitting in Church every Sunday? There is a spot and things the Lord has for each person to do. Some may not be glamorous or in the spotlight but there is more than keeping the pew warm and the plate full.

Maybe I am reading you wrong, but I'd have to digress with the cause identified for Christian passivity with pursuing a major ministry of some sort.

Writing such Christian passivity as being caused by "lazy Grace teachings" is a very broad brush stroke. I have seen many more aligned to legalism, of which are often in the pews of a church and in particular normally the ones playing church charades, doing what you say.

Many factors come into play with such Christian passivity. Everything in Western society is saturated with teaching the way one ought to proceed in life with being something as follows: education, get a job, try to be as successful as possible, find love, get married, get a house and many other material possessions, have kids and raise them, save up your money and get a holiday house for retirement in your later years of life. Not everything there is bad, indeed there is probably nothing inherently wrong with such things. Fulfilling one's responsibilities to family is something that definitely takes a priority, however I can agree Christians are definitely called beyond and out of such comforts. We are just so saturated with being brought up in western ideas that there is a very strong mould to break out of, although with God's help one can rise above it all to see spiritual purpose and goals correctly.

Add into the mix it isn't always clear what one should do ministry-wise, or how one can do it, then all these reasons I've mentioned here compound matters as to why Christians may be what jlay calls a "spectator Christian". And many presumably "spectator Christians" are often doing what they can without a specific ministry or "calling" whether helping with charity work, ministering to those around them in life or what-have-you. I know many that do much good, but without surveying it is quite presumptuous to claim one way or the other.

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Re-reading I see I may have reacted to a "sound bite" so-to-speak. However, I still stand by my words.

Add into the mix it isn't always clear what one should do ministry-wise, or how one can do it, then all these reasons I've mentioned here compound matters as to why Christians may be what jlay calls a "spectator Christian".

Well, why is that? Why isn't it clear?

major ministry of some sort.

Where did I say major ministry? All ministry is major. "If you even offer a cup of water to one of these,......" I think you greatly misunderstand me. Whether it is a full-time "CAREER" calling or not is not my gripe. Or some, 'official' capacity. Heaven forbid. I concur that there are many a beleiver who serves humbly, and faithfully without any notice or attention. I thought I had clarified that already. However, if you do not think there is a great neglect, then friend, you will find we are very far apart on the matter. I have worked with churched kids and un-churched kids for 10 years. I am appalled at how many of the churched ones are not discipled in their own home, by so called Christian parents. That in itself is a matter I could disucss at great length. I could also share with you about the children who are disciple at home, faithfully. Sadly, they are a great minority in my experience. If Christian parents were ministering to their children rightly and taking charge as spiritual providers, do you think our culture would look as it does today? I would be quite elated if the average spectator Christian would be convicted on this matter, and repent. Without question, we would see great revival.

Everything in Western society is saturated with teaching the way one ought to proceed in life with being something as follows: education, get a job, try to be as successful as possible, find love, get married, get a house and many other material possessions, have kids and raise them, save up your money and get a holiday house for retirement in your later years of life. Not everything there is bad, indeed there is probably nothing inherently wrong with such things.

And most spectators are quite content to flow with this model you mention. I can only go by what the Word says. 'Friendship with the world is enmity with God.' 'Be not CONFORMED any longer to the PATTERN of this world." You are correct, that these things in and of themselves are not wrong. But when a Christian or Christian parent puts a priority on these above serving and following Christ, then they set up an idol. How many Christian parents are bold enough to permit or even encourage their children to go against this model you mention? Overwhelmingly, they are not. They are telling their children that the most important things are these that you mention. Not instead guiding them to walk in the good works that God has prepared for them. I think it is an absolute falsehood to tell people that flowing with the world and 'doing the best you can' is akin to walking in His footsteps. We've got to break through that lie to see real revival. I recently told my nine year old, College is not a means to and end. Whether you go or not isn't the issue. If through God's guidance He directs your path through an institution of higher learning, then this all that matters. If His path is different, then you should take it, regardless of what the world values. Period.

And many presumably "spectator Christians" are often doing what they can without a specific ministry or "calling" whether helping with charity work, ministering to those around them in life or what-have-you. I know many that do much good, but without surveying it is quite presumptuous to claim one way or the other.

Great, I'm one of them as well. I also know that for years, I wasn't. FWIW, I work a full-time job. And, I also know the excuses I gave for not serving. I know Christ, and His power. My cup runneth over. I also know that unless I was willing to sacrifice my time, and lay down some idols (and I use that loosely), that I would not be experiencing the blessing of serving as I am now. I am testifying that these things are available for the believer. I don't have something that makes me special, or better than another Christian. It is just a shame to see people continue in these patterns as if they don't know or trust what is actually available to them.

-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

Add into the mix it isn't always clear what one should do ministry-wise, or how one can do it, then all these reasons I've mentioned here compound matters as to why Christians may be what jlay calls a "spectator Christian".

Well, why is that? Why isn't it clear?

major ministry of some sort.

Where did I say major ministry?

It was presumed, but I think you misunderstand what I mean by "major". I guess I attend a church of 200-300+ people for the past year. Since then, I'm lucky if I personally know what 10 of those Christians do re: their lives with God. Whether they have really great at witnessing to people around them in their lives, how they raise their kids, etc. However, I could tell you whether such people are on missions overseas, etc.

Perhaps you have more experience to go on, but to me it sounds like you are rather harshly judging other church-going Christians and brushing them with a broad stroke.

jlay wrote:All ministry is major.

Agreed... but some Christians believe in "listening to God" and "being called" for a specific purpose. This "calling" is found with elders of a church, or with other "prophetic" Christians who agree that is what God is calling that person to do. This comes in many different flavours depending on one's denomination, but ultimately it boils down to a "specific calling" we must listen to God for. This "specific calling" is what I was trying to convey as a major ministry, and it is what I perceived you to mean by your words. Indeed we are all called regardless of any specific calling for the great commission of witnessing to others.

jlay wrote:Whether it is a full-time "CAREER" calling or not is not my gripe. Or some, 'official' capacity. Heaven forbid. I concur that there are many a beleiver who serves humbly, and faithfully without any notice or attention. I thought I had clarified that already.

I was originally responding to BW, and reacting to the statement of "lazy Grace". I personally feel not enough grace is extended by other Christians towards others.

jlay wrote:However, if you do not think there is a great neglect, then friend, you will find we are very far apart on the matter. I have worked with churched kids and un-churched kids for 10 years. I am appalled at how many of the churched ones are not discipled in their own home, by so called Christian parents.

Well being able to recall being brought up in church and at school and surrounded by other Christian kids, I can agree with this statement I suppose. Most were quite hypocritical. No doubt this extends into adult life. However, families also struggle. There are many reasons for children going astray, and the parents themselves are often still on their own spiritual journey and ups and downs with God in their lives. What such families need is grace being extended, support and proper teaching and direction... not judgement and contempt.

jlay wrote:That in itself is a matter I could disucss at great length. I could also share with you about the children who are disciple at home, faithfully. Sadly, they are a great minority in my experience. If Christian parents were ministering to their children rightly and taking charge as spiritual providers, do you think our culture would look as it does today? I would be quite elated if the average spectator Christian would be convicted on this matter, and repent. Without question, we would see great revival.

Yes I do believe today's culture would look as it is today. Because I don't think Christians are responsible for today's culture. Rather people at large are. People are sinners. Culture has never been better, it has never been worse. It is more in one's perception. We aren't promised perfection here and now. We are promised perfection in Christ's kingdom in the hereafter.

If your call is for Christians to be more active in Christ. I fully agree. Each of us can never be active enough. But I will first look to myself, rather than preach to and judge other Christians around me, because I have A LOT to work on in myself.

jlay wrote:

Everything in Western society is saturated with teaching the way one ought to proceed in life with being something as follows: education, get a job, try to be as successful as possible, find love, get married, get a house and many other material possessions, have kids and raise them, save up your money and get a holiday house for retirement in your later years of life. Not everything there is bad, indeed there is probably nothing inherently wrong with such things.

And most spectators are quite content to flow with this model you mention.

I know, and it makes me sick. I hate it, and at different times I think we're all guilty of getting caught up in pursuing such goals and such a lie about how to live life.

jlay wrote:I can only go by what the Word says. 'Friendship with the world is enmity with God.' 'Be not CONFORMED any longer to the PATTERN of this world." You are correct, that these things in and of themselves are not wrong. But when a Christian or Christian parent puts a priority on these above serving and following Christ, then they set up an idol. How many Christian parents are bold enough to permit or even encourage their children to go against this model you mention? Overwhelmingly, they are not.

I do not know "how many Christian parents are bold enough to permit or even encourage their children to go against this model you mention." I have not asked other Christian parents, but I those I know I feel would agree with going against this trend. I know mine did not think it wise when I stated as a child that I wanted to go to a part of the world to preach about Christ where Christians are persecuted and killed for preaching about Christ. At the same time they did not advise against it and thought it cute perhaps.

Those who would be totally against their children doing such a thing, or simply breaking out of the custom norms of how to live life, are those who are watered down Christians who while they agree with the thought of Christianity don't really believe it as truth but something like more of their "religious taste". It is a failure of proper Christian teaching which ministers to both the heart and mind that this happens.

jlay wrote:They are telling their children that the most important things are these that you mention. Not instead guiding them to walk in the good works that God has prepared for them. I think it is an absolute falsehood to tell people that flowing with the world and 'doing the best you can' is akin to walking in His footsteps. We've got to break through that lie to see real revival. I recently told my nine year old, College is not a means to and end. Whether you go or not isn't the issue. If through God's guidance He directs your path through an institution of higher learning, then this all that matters. If His path is different, then you should take it, regardless of what the world values. Period.

I think we do agree on pretty much everything. The manner in which we approach the definite issue is just quite different.

jlay wrote:

And many presumably "spectator Christians" are often doing what they can without a specific ministry or "calling" whether helping with charity work, ministering to those around them in life or what-have-you. I know many that do much good, but without surveying it is quite presumptuous to claim one way or the other.

Great, I'm one of them as well. I also know that for years, I wasn't. FWIW, I work a full-time job. And, I also know the excuses I gave for not serving. I know Christ, and His power. My cup runneth over. I also know that unless I was willing to sacrifice my time, and lay down some idols (and I use that loosely), that I would not be experiencing the blessing of serving as I am now. I am testifying that these things are available for the believer. I don't have something that makes me special, or better than another Christian. It is just a shame to see people continue in these patterns as if they don't know or trust what is actually available to them.

I know I can certainly do far better than what I am doing to serve Christ.

It is very hard, especially when caught up with raising children, having to pay bills and earn a living, to look above the waters. Indeed when one is drowning beneath such waters they need to be reached out to by other Christians.

The last thing such Christians who are drowning need is to be looked down upon and criticised by other Christians who somehow made it above such waters (or who perhaps have not yet taken a dip). It is perhaps the main reason why Christians stop attending a church. I am not sure you are doing this, but this is what I perceived may have been happening here. This is what draw me in to post to bring some balance to the discussion.

However, we can both agree Christians including us could all be doing more.

Bill Wilson is a man being used amazingly by God. Abandoned as a child, Bill is sold out to reach the most neglected in our world. They bus in around 20k kids a week in Brooklyn, and reach several thousand more through sidewalk sOnday schools.

15 years ago, God began a sidewalk SONday school minsistry here in Knoxville, TN, where we reach over 1,000 at-risk children per week with bible teaching. Inspired after hearing Bill Wilson speak at a conference, Knoxville Inner City Kids Outreach (KICKO) was born. http://www.kicko.org

There is a great neglect by the corporate church in this country. The reason we reach 1,000 kids a week is because no local congregation is willing to do it on their own. Even through this tough economy, church buildings continue to be constructed in our communites. Monies are spent in the millions for programs. Church goers are entertained in Broadway quality worship centers, with showmanship that is professional quality. Power point presentations, and high tech production that would make Hollywood jealous is becoming the norm. Yet, the simplest act to, "go and tell," is a great neglect of the modern church.

A question. What are the good works that God has prepared beforehand that you are walking in?
I had been a spectator Christian for the vast majority of my life. About eight years ago, sitting in a pew in church, I asked God, "Is this it? Surely you saved me for more." I was a bible reading, church going, Sunday school teaching Christian. I knew that Christ had saved me, Eph. 2:8-9, but what about Ephesians 2:10. All my 'Christian' life was defined essentially by what happened within the walls of a building. I still am a part of that congregation. In fact, God answered my prayer in that pew on that day. From that day God opened doors of ministry I never dreamed possible. Today, I cherish my role within the congregation even more. Congregational church used to define my Christian life. Now it is one of many facets to my Christian life. Yet I am more active, and more richly blessed by it. Strange, is it not?
If you are a new creature in Christ, you were created for good works. You were made for ministry. Are you ministering? Have you asked God to reveal this? Are you prepared to sacrifice to find it? It WILL require a sacrifice. Your time, effort, finances, etc. Be sure of that.

Reading you original message again, I can see perhaps we diverted down an alley discussion which we both really don't disagree on. I agree with a lot of what you wrote, if not all. Again, it was seeing the words "lazy Grace teachings" that sparked my original post. Maybe I was a bit premature, but in any case, a good discussion to have.

Lazy Grace refers to people being lackadaisical about the Grace that saved them; therefore, Lazy Grace.

Are they still save? Yes…

Are they confused about works verses grace? Yes…

This makes them lackadaisical about the Grace that saved them…

So much so that one: some will do nothing other than enjoy the ride and from this many become bored, and uninterested, wondering if this is all there to this Christian thing? Two: for others, they become so engrossed in works orientation to perform for God that they burn out and become frustrated, then eventually lazy.

God’s Grace saves and the Lord is at work on our hearts, changing us, by grace. From this, we learn to overflow his will and do His works in us, by grace (him working in us), those that get this are not lazy about grace. But are in effect discovering that Ephesians 2:10 is also part of Ephesians 2:8-9…

Whether it be in small or large matters – they are about the Father’s business. Because they learned the hard way that it is He who dwells within that does the works. Most often they arrive at this conclusion due to a state of lazy grace. After they tire of rituals, mindless rhythmic duty of good deeds, or the opposite of being told they can’t do nothing at all so sit in the pew or a bar, don’t matter where, that they become so aggravated and disappointed in their faith that they are confronted to shake off the apathy of lazy grace and uncover active grace within their hearts.

Active Grace is by God’s hands that will make a person active in their faith as well as help each individual discover their purpose and meaning for their life so much so, it changes them to become a better reflection of Christ wherever they were assigned in life. After all, they have realized that God first loved them and from this they awaken to love God and it shows. For this showing, we have a tendency to tell them to be quiet, be still, you are getting into works so become lazy, and then we wonder why we cannot get many involved in the needs and life of a church group, or giving!

Grace ain’t Cheap because it is Free. That is a title of a sermon teaching I did long ago. In summary: Grace cost God (2nd person of the trinity-the Word, task bearer, right arm, etc..) to unite himself to humanity in the role of Messiah (Philippians 2:5-8), from this he exposed our sin nature, by being betrayed, rejected, despised, mocked, beaten, and then dying a terrible death to do this exposing. Then forgives our transgressions against himself as (often also) evidenced in our thoughts actions, deeds toward others at the moment we wake to this truth and trust in Him (his work - grace) as he said – see John 3:15-16.

From this, we discover that, yes, God truly loved us first to do this for an ungrateful people, so that we can now become united back into God’s fold and loving arms. We Discover that God’s Grace was not cheap because it is free, it cost the Lord all. From this, our love for the Lord grows and lazy grace no longer holds us bound to apathy and just watching the show.

We learn to live and move according to Him who dwells in us as we learn to love God because He first loved us so. For this many chide and try to shame those thus touched by God to be quiet, sit still, your too works oriented, become lazy like us. Sorry, those that have discovered this, can’t return to a state of laziness.

We are after all, the arms, legs, feet, mouth, etc, called the body of Christ; Called to reach out doing our Father’s business wherever we have been assigned. Him working thru us, His will, thus transformed - Galatians 1:4, Galatians 4:19, 2 Peter 1:2-9

Those that learn this, know full well that reliance on good works to earn favoritism, brownie points, to canvass God is an affront to God because such legalist works – rituals are an attempt to overthrow God by saying our legalist works – rituals done for God are greater and better than God works. We know he alone saves and have moved beyond the torn veil and begun the journey towards the Holy of Holies. We know His Grace ain’t Cheap because it is Free…

(Final Note - by agape - agapeo Love I mean the love that takes time to nurture, cherish, foster... This cannot be done thru the means of ritual and dead legalism. Challenge: Learn to apply this meaning wherever agape - agapeo Love is translated in the NT and a whole new world will open up to you)
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sinnerbybirth wrote:Hey jlay, loved the story and what your doing for the children. Keep up the good work brother.

If i boast, let me boast on the Lord. Amen. God is doing some amazing things.

Since then, I'm lucky if I personally know what 10 of those Christians do re: their lives with God.

K, Really?!? Are you telling me that you belong to a congregation and you barely know these people, their testimony, their calling? Not even 10? I'm curious, how long have you been there?

When you work with people's children it is a window into the home life. It reveals a lot. If most parents knew how much it revealed, they'd probably either change or stop bringing their kids.

Perhaps you have more experience to go on, but to me it sounds like you are rather harshly judging other church-going Christians and brushing them with a broad stroke.

I do have a lot of experience, but that is not the only resource. I don't know about down under, but up here we have Barna research. Which gives us great stats on the Christian culture, and yes, helps us paint with a broad stroke. I am certainly not alone in this indictment. There is a great neglect.

Agreed... but some Christians believe in "listening to God" and "being called" for a specific purpose. This "calling" is found with elders of a church, or with other "prophetic" Christians who agree that is what God is calling that person to do.

God will not deny the prayer of a believer to be used by Him. A believer does not have to go through some religious hierarchy, although God may use others to speak into a person's life. In fact the book of Ephesians paints the plan quite well. A person who is listening for this direction WILL hear. A good start would be if Christians would simply obey and honor God in their own homes.

There are many reasons for children going astray, and the parents themselves are often still on their own spiritual journey and ups and downs with God in their lives. What such families need is grace being extended, support and proper teaching and direction... not judgement and contempt.

Going astray is one thing. Proverbs 22:6 is either true or it is not. Is God wrong, or are we getting it wrong? I'm betting on the latter.

Also, i am a little offened as your statement here implies that I am treating others with contempt and not extending grace, support, teaching and direction, when I have in fact poured my life into children and families for ten years. All scripture is useful for teaching, REBUKING, correction and training in righteousness.
The apostle Paul decribed himself as the chief of sinners, yet he harshly rebuked the church. Some of the greatest Christian minds we revere spoke harshly against the Christian culture they were a part of.

Because I don't think Christians are responsible for today's culture.

Christians are responsible for Christian culture. Jesus impacted His culture.

But I will first look to myself, rather than preach to and judge other Christians around me, because I have A LOT to work on in myself.

Of course we all do. Personal sanctification never ends as long as we are sucking air from this world. But this is not an excuse to say nothing. There is a difference in the progressive sanctification of a believer, and a believer walking in the works which god prepared for them. Imagine if Elijah, or Isaiah, or David, had said, "Well, I better not say anything, or do anything, because I'm not perfect either."

We are promised perfection in Christ's kingdom in the hereafter.

Actually I disagree. We are made perfect when we believe. Of course I know what you are saying. But, all too often we neglect to trust God in what we have IN CHRIST. Jesus taught the disciples to pray for the Kingdom to COME, His will be done on EARTH. Now! In Eph 5, we are told to redeem the time. Redeem the now.

People are sinners.

People are, Christians aren't. (John 1:12) Of course Christians will sin, (1 john 1:8) but they are not sinners. They are reconciled, redeemed, children of God. (Romans 8:9-10) (Romans 8:15-16) You keep telling Christians this lie, and they'll start believing it.

The last thing such Christians who are drowning need is to be looked down upon and criticised by other Christians who somehow made it above such waters (or who perhaps have not yet taken a dip).

Actually the last thing Christians need is business as usual, or to be told, "im ok, you're ok." Which, i don't think you are implying. They need to be told to trust Christ, and walk worthy of their calling. To get off baby's milk and get to the meat of things. I'm not saying anything revolutionary. Nothing that Jesus or Paul didn't say.

The neglect is great. The evidence is condemning. We have abundance in this country, even in the midst of economic crisis, we still live better than 95% of the world, including all of history. Our churches have facilities and resources gallore. Yet, how can so many go untouched, unreached, unloved by the church? We will answer for it. "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." Luke 12:48

-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

Since then, I'm lucky if I personally know what 10 of those Christians do re: their lives with God.

K, Really?!? Are you telling me that you belong to a congregation and you barely know these people, their testimony, their calling? Not even 10? I'm curious, how long have you been there?

That is correct. What's your point?

Furthermore, I don't believe in "callings" since I believe we are all called and Scripture is obvious what business we're meant to be about. It's just a matter of working out how to best use our talents.

jlay wrote:When you work with people's children it is a window into the home life. It reveals a lot. If most parents knew how much it revealed, they'd probably either change or stop bringing their kids.

That's nice. Your attitude is one reason why I didn't like churches for many years. I take my kids to creche at church and stay with them so I get to see other kids. I also get to see other parents, and some I can tell struggle. I'd much prefer to focus on how the parents can be helped rather than judge them. You know, show compassion rather than judgement. Thank God Jesus did this for us.

jlay wrote:

Agreed... but some Christians believe in "listening to God" and "being called" for a specific purpose. This "calling" is found with elders of a church, or with other "prophetic" Christians who agree that is what God is calling that person to do.

God will not deny the prayer of a believer to be used by Him. A believer does not have to go through some religious hierarchy, although God may use others to speak into a person's life. In fact the book of Ephesians paints the plan quite well. A person who is listening for this direction WILL hear. A good start would be if Christians would simply obey and honor God in their own homes.

I was raised in Pentecostal churches. I think everything we need to hear is quite plain in Scripture, including what we a called to do.

I recommend reading over BW's words. They paint the picture well of God working through us to produce good. Once we commit ourselves to Christ, it is He who promises to change us. Furthermore, if they are Christians then they are brothers and sisters in Christ. If a person does not wish to honour God, then this tells me something. It tells me they do not really follow after God. On the other hand, if they struggle to obey and honour God, then this I can understand they are still Christian and struggle with sin as do we all. Are you really that perfect yourself?

In any case, I see no profit to be brought further into debating this. I think it is clear you are more Arminian on the works/grace issue, whereas I fall more on the Reformed side in relation to you.

My point is, I am shocked. Just being candid. My response was that you would clarify. I'm shocked that where you choose to fellowship with people, yet you can't tell me about the testimony, lives or the Christian walk of those you choose to congregate and worship with. At least that is how I am understanding your comment. If I am wrong, I hope that you would clarify. That's why I asked you how long you had worshipped there.

Furthermore, I don't believe in "callings" since I believe we are all called and Scripture is obvious what business we're meant to be about. It's just a matter of working out how to best use our talents.

I'm not going to argue the semantics of the word calling, and I'm not sure how your are using it. My use comes from Pauls use in Ephesians. It is obvious that in this sense Paul beleived in it, and believed in it for every believer. Paul talks repeatedly in this epistle about the 'walk.' And we know from Eph 2:10 that God has prepared beforehand, good works for the believer to walk in. Walk worthy of your Calling.

That's nice. Your attitude is one reason why I didn't like churches for many years. I take my kids to creche at church and stay with them so I get to see other kids. I also get to see other parents, and some I can tell struggle. I'd much prefer to focus on how the parents can be helped rather than judge them. You know, show compassion rather than judgement.

For one, that is not an attitude. It is a fact. Just as a school teacher learns a lot about the home life of a child by being with them. If parents knew what their children reveal about the homelife, I'd say many would be concerned. To show compassion requires we make sound judgements. I find your attempts to attack my character rather disturbing. I find it devious that you would somehow imply that I am only judging and not showing compassion. Your reply is offensive and underhanded. No two ways about it. My attitude is one of concern for the great neglect we see in our Christian culture today. The fact that you have taken opportunity to jump in on this thread about God's work through a minsitry I have been blessed to serve in, and use it to somehow berrate me about speaking to the great concerns and neglects we see in the church today is nothing but absurd. You have no clue the times I have spent weeping in prayer over a child or a family. You have no idea how I have prayed for God to use me to see these children come to Christ to discover their God given destiny.

The fact that we can tell a lot about a homelife through a child is simply a reality. The fact that there is a lack of discipleship in the home is a sad reality. One that our congregation is helping offer resources and strategies to deal with. It is also obvious when parents do or don't take advantage of said resources. I hardly think you are qualified to make such judgments towards me.

Furthermore, if they are Christians then they are brothers and sisters in Christ. If a person does not wish to honour God, then this tells me something. It tells me they do not really follow after God. On the other hand, if they struggle to obey and honour God, then this I can understand they are still Christian and struggle with sin as do we all. Are you really that perfect yourself?

First. I am a dispensationalist. I am not per se talking about the salvation of these people. Your Arminian claims are just off base. I am talking about exactly what the apostle Paul talks about at length. Especially in Ephesians. He spends three chapters reminding the beleivers of what they HAVE in Christ. In chapter four he essentially says, "since you already have this, walk worthy of your calling." i just find it utterly disturbing that someone of the faith would try to make such a unfounded case against me, as if everything is just hunky dory in the Christian world." It's sickening.

-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious