We now mourn our good friends sandman and dead ringer..

Seems to me like valve just murdered these two pieces of equipment to me. I just got the sandman 2 days before the update, and now it is pretty much a suicide mission to go against any more than 1 person at a time.

And lets not forget the ringer, which has a cloak just under -2.2s now, giving a spy the perfect amount of time to get to cover.

It just seems to me like valve makes weapons that totally kick ass in the beginning, and then patch them afterward just as the tf2 community has finally gotten a hold of said weapon and knows how to navigate around it..

The ambassador (I can understand), but the sandman was ripped to shreds, putting the scout holding it at a huge disadvantage, giving him or her the lowest full health in the game, and not letting them stun ubers (I can sort of understand this, but it still was hilarious while it lasted). Finally, they hacked the bonk distance in two, so now tons of people use it to run up in your face and right before you blast them into oblivion the stun you for two seconds and some sniper picks you off.

Most of the backfalls of other equipment is logical, the inability to move while eating a sandvich, or no crits with a blutsauger, but how the hell can a bat take out 30 of your health?

Personally, I'd rather get unexpectedly one-shot by a sniper or spy (dying instantly and getting put into the respawn queue) than get unexpectedly hit by the baseball and wait around three seconds (and possibly missing a spawnwave) while something takes its sweet time killing me.

The sandman changes I like. I despise the sandman and the people who use it even more. There is no real skill to it IMO. Hit a ball, if it hits someone, free kill.
DR changes I don't like. There is no time to flee and take cover

I kinda think the health tradeoff is a bit harsh and unnecessary, but I kinda like the new Sandman better, if only because the right/left click changes make it far easier to aim.

Still, I'm kind of frustrated that they decided to make it nigh-useless in pub play exchange for it sometimes maybe being something you'd use in comp. play. I would've much preferred they spent their time trying to fix the Sandman on stuff like the Backburner or the Needle Gun that have absolutely no applications in EITHER side.

Giving the Dead Ringer such little cloak (I've heard stuff about it being as low as 3 seconds, down from a maximum of 8) is absolutely horrible for Spies. It doesn't nerf the Dead Ringer, it simply breaks it, which leads me to believe this is just a glitch.

I've always hated the Sandman's stuns, especially as a Medic who will Ubercharge someone only to have them instantly stunned until long after the charge wears off, so I say good for Valve making the severely OP'd Scout a little worse off for carrying the wretched thing. The Farce-a-Nature is also one of my least favorite items to be contending with - why, why, oh WHY has it killed me in 2 hits when I'm a Heavy with full health on so many occasions? Reduced damage vs. the scattergun? I don't buy it. Hopefully now I can actually kill a scout once in a while before they can miraculously destroy me in a single shot.

I think the Sandman's a little broken in a new way though, because I had 97 health as a Sniper the other day and got instantly killed by a scout's short-range all. Honest. 97 health drained from one hit by a ball. It showed the stunball kill icon and everything, and no assists from anyone else, so it wasn't a headshot coinciding with the ball or someone else hitting me with something else at the same instant - all one stupid baseball. I repeat: 97 health. Is that even remotely close to normal?

Dead Ringer is only 2 seconds now? Sounds bloody useless, makes me almost glad I suck as Spy anyway and thus will rarely if ever be bothering with it. Also seems to perfectly suit the "Level 0" one I've got.

I kinda think the health tradeoff is a bit harsh and unnecessary, but I kinda like the new Sandman better, if only because the right/left click changes make it far easier to aim.

Still, I'm kind of frustrated that they decided to make it nigh-useless in pub play exchange for it sometimes maybe being something you'd use in comp. play. I would've much preferred they spent their time trying to fix the Sandman on stuff like the Backburner or the Needle Gun that have absolutely no applications in EITHER side.

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The sandman is the only weapon (as far as I know) that has been widely banned in comp play (at the very least it is in the UGC league). As for the Blutsauger, It is a medic's best friend when He's all alone, especially in comp. I owe my life to that little gun for the amount of scouts I've pinned down with it. I never even think to use the regular one.

I've always hated the Sandman's stuns, especially as a Medic who will Ubercharge someone only to have them instantly stunned until long after the charge wears off, so I say good for Valve making the severely OP'd Scout a little worse off for carrying the wretched thing. The Farce-a-Nature is also one of my least favorite items to be contending with - why, why, oh WHY has it killed me in 2 hits when I'm a Heavy with full health on so many occasions? Reduced damage vs. the scattergun? I don't buy it. Hopefully now I can actually kill a scout once in a while before they can miraculously destroy me in a single shot.

I think the Sandman's a little broken in a new way though, because I had 97 health as a Sniper the other day and got instantly killed by a scout's short-range all. Honest. 97 health drained from one hit by a ball. It showed the stunball kill icon and everything, and no assists from anyone else, so it wasn't a headshot coinciding with the ball or someone else hitting me with something else at the same instant - all one stupid baseball. I repeat: 97 health. Is that even remotely close to normal?

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The scout is probably one of the strongest cases of the skill/deadliness curve. The best players all go for the scout because they can easily dodge many of the classes and they can be lethal at close range. When the FaN was introduced, I assumed it was there for worser scouts, or ones that don't like to play close range. I was hopping the weapon would be incredibly weak but be able to shove players around like the pyro's airblast. Yet instead valve buffed it to make it twice as deadly when used by any pro scout. The scout update still remains (in my opinion) the worst TF2 major update ever released. And while it makes me sad that the're finally, over half a year latter, fixing the issues it caused, I'll be glad to not have to worry about those damn scouts so much anymore.

I never play as the Spy, so I love it when Valve nerfs him in any way possible. Sorry, I know that's not a fair opinion.

I think it was a good move to give the double jump back to the Scout when he's carrying the Sandman. The double-jump is an important characteristic of the Scout class, and removing it would be like making the Pyro no longer fireproof. But the health drop? I guess I'll have to try the Scout to see how big an impact it makes. I'm glad they won't let the Sandman stun ubers anymore, despite how much I enjoyed doing it.

Scout was always supposed to be the weakest class as he was the "flag runner" I was so surprised when first playing TF2 that the scout actually turned out to be more powerful than most of the assualt classes. 2 shotting most people in their path. It was a real wtf moment for me.

The FaN is also a bullshit weapon, it can deal up to 260 damage non-crit (double shotting). Don't get me started.

I don't play spy, but the Deadringer update sounds crap. You need that time to get away so no one hear's you spawn. Now it's like *kill* 1..2..3.. ksssht *turn corner and kill same spy*. I dunno, i'll have to see this stuff for myself.