Prequel To The Sequel (QC work to be done before XY, all QCers must read)

There's been a distinct lack of cohesiveness in the QC team for quite some time, and it's been made all the more serious with the coming of X&Y. While it might seem like we're in the clear (there's a laundry list of things that analyses that need to be passed through QC), there is a ton of content that needs to be updated. While the vast majority of analyses and articles are accurate and up to date, there are a number of high-profile analyses that need updating, and it's extremely important that we get these updates done before all of our focus is turned to the new generation of analyses.

We implore anyone who regularly plays in tournaments to post sets that are commonly used in tournament play, but aren't seen on ladder. Sets that are extremely situational (IE: any set used to counterteam a player) should be avoided. Gimmicky sets will be deleted on sight without a response, so make sure the sets you submit are of the utmost quality.

Note: QC members that do not actively participate in the project will not be eligible for a place in Gen 6 OU QC. In addition, non QC members who exhibit an exemplary work ethic and produce quality results will also be considered as potential QC members for gen 6.

It's on us to pull ourselves out of this rut, and start getting things done around here.

I can't say I have a great deal of tournament experience (I suck at tournaments q.q), but from my experience on the ladder, CB Dragonite has been far better than DDNite. Whereas DDNite's success depends on how well a team prepares for its counters, CBNite can still punch holes in the opposing team even when there's a Mamoswine running around (that probably won't switch in anyway). Choice Band Extremespeed is an excellent revenging tool if you've managed to slightly wear down your opponent as well.

Tailwind: When you mean mentioning Tailwind, you mean mentioning them in OO? I know you are mentioning it in Mew's SR set. Tornadus already has Tailwind mentioned in OO. I suppose we can OO mention Tailwind in Volcarona, Hydreigon, Gliscor, Lati@s, Salamence, Skarmory, Dragonite, and Aerodactyl's analyses?

Garchomp: I can do this via SCMS

RE ginganinja: I support slashing Analytic with Natural Cure on the offensive Starmie set. We might even want to mention Analytic in Starmie's Overview. Understood about Garchomp

Most of this already involves my own interpretations but ill just reiterate what I personally want...

Tentacruel: Backing the EV spread change. Only question is if its just AC, or should be more of a main spread.Heatran: I have ran Heatran a lot in the past, and didn't really have massive success with Flame Charge. Despite this, I have spoken with a large amount of people, and have, in person, seen how effective the set can be. I give this a full approval. Gengar: Agree that we could very easily do what Pocket suggested. Obviously the analysis would have to be large in order to combine all of this, but quite frankly I am ok with this. Unsure exactly how good WoW is since I hear conflicting reports, and its sometimes good and sometimes meh whenever I test it. Would appreciate info on this. Starmie: RE: Pocket, its already scmsed in AC. The point of PK bringing it up now, is because he and I believe its exceptionally good, and that it should possibly be slashed with natural cure (if we can slash abilities), and that a greater mention of it should be made in the analysis. A free LO boost when something switchs in on Starmie (which is a lot), isn't something to frown at. Landorus-T: Agree, id highlight Offensive Pivot as being the primary Landorus-T set that needs it slashed now. Dragonite: I see CB more than DD at higher stages of the ladder. Might just be me tho. Jirachi: Shuca Berry really needs a mention, as the lead shuca / anti lead shuca sets are both common and good in the current meta. Tailwind: Used Tailwind teams a fair bit in this meta. The prime tailwind users that I would prolly bring up are Hydreigon (lacks a speed boosting ability of its own), Mew (on the lead for support), and Suicune (its Tailwind set is redic good like seriously). Anything else im a little uncertain on, especially as I don't rate Dragonite + Salamence as good Tailwinders, and would rather use them on a Tailwind Team as CB heavy hitters (esp in the case of Dragonite) or something. I do think anything that has Tailwind mentioned, needs a strnog mention of certain partners, otherwise your general player would have no clue how to use Tailwind effectively). Garchomp: RE Pocket: its not a simple matter of SCMSing it, the actual analysis is built fully around a fire move in the last slot. I would seriously consider the SD set of Garchomp getting a full rewrite as its a) potentially one of Garchomps Top 2 sets and b) current analysis utterly ignores Aqua Tail so id argue something drastic has to be done. I might be alone in this.

I personally think Will-O-Wisp is kind of mediocre on Gengar. It some surprise value, but it really doesn't let you do anything more than what we already have. Tyranitar is still OHKOing you with Crunch or Pursuit on the switch even without a Choice Band, while you're not getting off scot-free against Scizor either. I guess you do cripple them for something else to kill, but really, I'd much rather 2HKO Tyranitar with Focus Blast or OHKO Scizor on the switch with Hidden Power Fire than waste time with Will-o-Wisp.

I'm not a member of QC, nor do I participate in major tournaments, but I know that Sleep Talk Latios is becoming much more popular as of late. A Specs Latios with Sleep Talk makes an excellent answer to Breloom, which can be a huge pain for many teams, and not every offensive team can afford to run a sleep absorber. Sleep Talk Latios may or may not be used in tournaments, but it is being suggested quite often to people down at the RMT forum. I had the set suggested to me by (I think) MCBarrett, and it works like a charm Since then, whenever I see offensive teams that have Latios on them to "counter" Breloom, I suggest they use Sleep Talk over Trick. I know that it would probably be as simple as SCMS'ing it into the AC of the Specs set, but I definitely feel it's worth some sort of mention at least, if not a slash. It's not just theorymon either. I've used the set quite a bit before on both Latios and Latias, and it works really well. Breloom using Spore is super easy to predict.

I'm not on QC, but I've been present in numerous conversations about things like these and have some opinions.

I'd just like to say that I've talked about doing Shuca Berry Jirachi over IRC and in the reservation thread, and strongly believe that it requires a new set. The mixed attacker set is nothing like it. I would rate Shuca Berry Jirachi as just above or just below Scarf. The mixed attacker is more of a general lure and SmashPass receiver, whilst Shuca Berry has a very specific role in providing insurance against Ground-types. It's entirely different than a subset of the mixed attacker set and better than it.

I'd also like to mention revisiting the attacking move slash order on SubCM -- it is currently Thunder / Thunderbolt and Psyshock / Flash Cannon / Water Pulse. I just recently used SubCM Jirachi to get OU Current reqs for this test, and in my experience Psyshock made me lose to more than it helped against. Flash Cannon was great for Tyranitar and for a general power move. Water Pulse was also great for nailing Landorus-T/Gliscor and parafusing things like specially defensive Heatran to death. Grass Knot is also awesome for nailing Gastrodon, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon(!), the latter of which is especially troublesome for the typical Jirachi. I'd change the last moveslot's slash order to Flash Cannon / Water Pulse / Grass Knot and drop Psyshock to AC.

Kyurem-B's Substitute set is also very incorrect -- at least I'd say. The typical Substitute Kyurem-B is specially-based and runs Ice Beam / Earth Power / Fusion Bolt with max/almost max Special Attack (216 seems optimal based off the current on-site spread). SubRoost is outclassed in that vein by Kyurem-N. I would drop the physical variant to AC. Furthermore, the set order should really be Substitute / Choice Scarf / Specially Based Mixed Attacker / Choice Band / Substitute Shuffler / Physically Based Mixed Attacker. That's the same except moving the Specially Based Mixed Attacker up a few notches, which reflects how dangerous it really is. It's better than most other sets, but Substitute and Choice Scarf are more generally useful, so they should be the first two sets in the order. I find Roost important to slash in the last slot -- the recovery it provides can prove invaluable, especially since even without investment Kyurem-B is still an awesome Jolteon/Starmie/Politoed/Rotom-W check. Modest + Focus Blast also needs an AC mention because if you're on/in rain it is the only way to nail Ferrothorn, and it OHKOes. HP Fire needs to be highlighted for its ability to nail Custap Skarmory/Forretress, while Earth Power's mention needs to include its ability to easily KO most (read: non-specially defensive) Rotom-W.

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My rants aside, here are my opinions on the proposed changes in the OP:

Tentacruel: This is definitely important, considering SD Acrobatics + Flying Gem Scizor can nail Tentacruel for massive damage at +2. If it doesn't outspeed Scizor, it will die.

Heatran: Flame Charge Heatran is different enough from the typical offensive Heatran from what I've seen to warrant a separate set, but I guess that's a matter of opinion. It's just that standard offensive Heatran is not a sweeper, while Flame Charge Heatran is. Third or fourth in the set order maybe?

Gengar: SubWisp Gengar is unbelievably great, preventing Tyranitar from doing its job and providing a failsafe against Scarf Terrakion. It means you always beat Landorus-T, not just if you run HP Ice. It means Scizor can't even kill you with Bullet Punch. Brii/Dice mentioned its effectiveness on IRC, and I'm inclined to agree that it's really great. The question is though where it should go. BKC mentioned that SubSplit should definitely be the first set, considering it is the only Gengar set with recovery, which it desperately needs to do its spinblocking duties throughout the match. I would move SubDisable down to the second set and slash Will-O-Wisp in -- whether it would be the first or second slash is up for debate. I don't know what you would call such a set, though. Substitute + 2 Attacks? I'm not sure.

Starmie: Yes! Analytic Starmie is so great -- fucking over Blissey on the switch-in etc. is invaluable. Analytic-boosted Hydro Pump wrecks holes in everything, and even specially defensive Celebi can be 2HKOed by Analytic-boosted Ice Beam followed by another one with some hazards. Analytic is very powerful.

Landorus-T: Slashing HP Ice after Stone Edge would be best I think -- it's so important for nailing Garchomp, Dragonite, and co. and hits similar targets as Stone Edge (without the accuracy drawback). It might even deserve the first slash, idk.

Dragonite: Yes -- that CB ExtremeSpeed ends games so well it's not even funny. DD Dragonite has fallen in effectiveness I think, especially because its ExtremeSpeed isn't powerful enough. The immediate power offered by CB is extremely useful.

Speaking of ExtremeSpeed, I think it's relevant to say here that it should be alone on the DD set. Fire Punch isn't deserving of being slashed alone -- it's not powerful enough, and you can always run a Magnezone for Ferrothorn. I think Earthquake should be slashed with it and Roost dropped to AC. Superpower deserves a mention somewhere as well -- nailing Ferrothorn (in rain too I might add) and the rare Porygon2 (fuck this thing) can prove invaluable, and Earthquake just doesn't always do the job. It still hits Heatran very hard and Jirachi relatively hard, and is great to give Dragonite some utility besides setting up a DD and sweeping. It's a great lure on rain teams for Ferrothorn as well. Aqua Tail is also worth a mention for Hippowdon/Heatran/Jirachi in rain, not Waterfall as it is currently. Speaking of which, Aqua Tail should be the slash on Choice Band instead of Waterfall. It's just so much more powerful. It makes Superpower a much better option in the last slot in rain, being able to handle Jirachi, which Superpower has a slight bit of trouble with (it hurts but doesn't kill if Jirachi is invested in HP -- read: most Jirachi).

Jirachi: I've already covered my thoughts on it.

Tailwind users: ginganinja said everything I was going to say.

Garchomp: Aqua Tail is so good on Garchomp in rain that it's not even funny, and I definitely support its inclusion. Why are we so worried about Ferrothorn again? +2 Earthquake does like 70%. The current Swords Dance write-up is also very underdone and doesn't explain much about the set, which worries me, so it wouldn't be bad to, like, completely rewrite the set.

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A couple more things I saw:

Why is Life Orb even an option on Stealth Rock Garchomp? Stealth Rock Garchomp is a lead. It needs a Focus Sash. There is no reason to run Life Orb -- the additional power is almost entirely irrelevant on a lead set. I get that Life Orb-boosted attacks are cool and all, but the on-site analysis cites OHKOing Forretress and 2HKOing specially defensive Skarmory -- all I can say is what? Neither can really do ANYTHING back to you. Forretress with any prior damage (it's not unreasonable to assume it has to switch in to something considering it walls non-Fire Blast/SD-boosted Garchomp. Unless it has HP Ice or something (which is easy to scout for), OHKOing Forretress is not vital. Specially defensive Skarmory is non-existent. Focus Sash is so much better for a Pokemon that should always be functioning as a lead (with that set).

I tested out Dragonite's Tank set (not the rain one, the Thunder Wave | Roost | Draco Meteor | Fire Blast / Flamethrower one) and it was hilariously bad, being outclassed by every other set and not even being able to do what it's supposed to do. I support removing it and including a mixed attacking (potentially anti-lead) set with Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Superpower / ExtremeSpeed or something to that effect. It's currently relegated to AC, but from my experience it's worth testing out again in this metagame and could be worth a set.

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That's just the things I can remember off the top of my head (I looked at the analyses of course but you get the idea). I'm happy a thread like this was created -- I was just about to bring up creating a thread with a similar purpose. Again, I'm not on QC, but I have opinions on these things.

EDIT: Oh and on Sleep Talk Specs Latios -- it's very very good against Breloom and potentially slash-worthy in my opinion, so I think it warrants some discussion.

Tentacruel: Ok, so the main point of contention is whether we should place the alternate spread in AC or make it the main spread. I'm strongly leaning towards the former, and I also think that if we're going to run speed on tentacruel, we should bump it up to 264 speed (enough to outrun +speed skarmory, gyarados, dragonite and +speed breloom)

Starmie: Analytic should be slashed after Natural Cure. Any site staff members want to do the honors?
EDIT: Thanks Oglemi.

Heatran: Someone should post a Flame Charge Heatran thread.
EDIT: BKC has agreed to work on this. I'm counting on you to get this done.

Gengar: WoW will see an appearance on the sub set. Someone brought up an interesting point though, why do we have 2 sub sets? I think we should merge them. Thoughts?

Landorus-T: On top of adding Hidden Power Ice, Landorus-T needs a new spread (248 hp / 172 def / 88 speed naive)
@SevenDeadlySins has this covered.

Dragonite: Done.

Jirachi: Someone should post a Shuca Berry lead set.
EDIT: Jukain is working on this.

Tailwind: I was thinking of adding Tailwind to the AC of several prominent Pokemon actually. It's a damn good move, and totally unexplored.

Garchomp: Someone will have to update the Swords Dance set. Any takers?
Garchomp needs a full revamp. I can do it.

Gengar: WoW will see an appearance on the sub set. Someone brought up an interesting point though, why do we have 2 sub sets? I think we should merge them. Thoughts?

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I believe it's because SubDisable and SubSplit play differently enough that it warrants two separate sets. The former is a bit more defensive and pretty cautious, while the latter (mostly due to Life Orb) is able to go on the offensive much more effectively.

Why is Life Orb even an option on Stealth Rock Garchomp? Stealth Rock Garchomp is a lead. It needs a Focus Sash. There is no reason to run Life Orb -- the additional power is almost entirely irrelevant on a lead set.

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Personally agreeing with this. The only items I really run on 'Lead' Chomp are like, Sash and Rocky Helmet, and occasionally Leftovers, Yache, and Haban.

I just recently used SubCM Jirachi to get OU Current reqs for this test, and in my experience Psyshock made me lose to more than it helped against. Flash Cannon was great for Tyranitar and for a general power move. Water Pulse was also great for nailing Landorus-T/Gliscor and parafusing things like specially defensive Heatran to death. Grass Knot is also awesome for nailing Gastrodon, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon(!), the latter of which is especially troublesome for the typical Jirachi. I'd change the last moveslot's slash order to Flash Cannon / Water Pulse / Grass Knot and drop Psyshock to AC.

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Couple of things, firstly, I still don't like Water Pulse, and its piss weak, and leaves you vulnerable to a lot of stuff, and I still dislike running Thunder / GK together. I also disagree that Psyshock is AC material since its still useful in those CM war matches, as well as vs Gastrodon and like, hard special walls.

I AGREE that it shouldn't be first slash. Personally id have it as Flash Cannon / Psyshock / Water Pulse, as GS is pretty AC for me IMO.

Agreeing with PK in that IMO, we could easily fuse the 2 Sub Gengar sets together.

I don't know if I should post this here or in the subjective suggestions thread in the main section of the sub forum, but I think Cloyster needs a small change. Right now, it's first set has White Herb and Focus Sash as the preferred items. I've used Cloyster a fair amount, and I'm pretty sure that these items are largely inferior to Kings Rock and Life Orb. Right now, those items are in the additional comments section, but really they should be the main options for the set. I can understand that maintaining Cloyster's amazing defense is tempting, but the ability to OHKO Ferrothorn 56% of the time after Stealth Rock is much better, in my opinion. It also makes Ice Shard a guaranteed OHKO on Latios, one of Cloyster's main checks. And you have a 25% chance to OHKO Skarmory after Stealth Rock. not to mention an assured OHKO on Venusaur with Ice Shard as well, even without Stealth Rock. Life Orb should definitely be the preferred item on the set.

And King's Rock is not a bad choice either. As Kidogo and Lavos Spawn showed us with their war story a few months ago, Kings Rock can win you games. a 41% chance to flinch the opponent is nothing to scoff at at all. That's more of a chance than Scald has of burning. With it, you may not even need the extra power boost that Life Orb gives, as the Ferrothorn that your opponent just sent in to tank a hit a paralyze may be unable to do a thing to stop Cloyster.

Regardless, I think that either of these choices would be better than White Herb or Focus Sash.

@shrang jirachi and sd scizor among other various things like bulky waters are who you're targetting with wisp gar, not tyranitar.

anyways, i've mentioned all this stuff on irc so this is just a compendium of my ideas. i will post more if i have any.

flame charge heatran isn't deserving of a set imo, ac. it's nice at times, but it's more of a niche move. slashing works

i think 252 hp / 240 def / 16 spe timid should be the main tenta spread; outspeeding breloom/dnite and anything lower. AC mentioned should be 286 spe and 290 spe for kyurem(-b).

wispgar should just be slashed with disable or w/e, arguing over the set names / slash order is kinda a waste of time

jirachi doesn't deserve a shuca set, just mention it in ac of ebelt. also mention hp fire - stealth rock - energy ball - icy wind and stealth rock - iron head - thunderbolt - hidden power ice in the ac as well for stealth rock sets as they are useful.

focus sash should be slashed on garchomp, but shouldn't be the main slash. it often isn't ohkod bar lati@s; even sashtar ice beam can't ko depending on ev's of both and rocky helmet / yache / haban or whatever are all really nice.

king's rock should slashed on cloyster for sure

on the thundy-t analysis we should mention leftovers + focus blast / grass knot. it's cool since tyranitar always switches into lefties thundy-t expecting double dance to get ko'd by one of the respective moves

Forgive me for intruding, but I'm just getting started with the project, so first off I'd like to know why Flame Orb + Trick Latias is being considered, and how it would work in standard play.

Also you guys post too much so I'll try catching up on irc as soon as irc stops being a fagget and somebody stops stealing my nick. But yeah, I agree that we need to clean up around here, and this is a perfectly good start.

Also you guys post too much so I'll try catching up on irc as soon as irc stops being a fagget and somebody stops stealing my nick. But yeah, I agree that we need to clean up around here, and this is a perfectly good start.

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/ns ghost username password

I'm also personally not seeing Trick + Flame Orb Latias either. It gets Tyranitar, but unlike some of Latias's other anti-Tar methods (LO HP Fighting, Reflect Type) it's more situational and can get you a different bad item should your opponent try to bring in something like a Balloon Heatran or sack a low-health Gengar.

trick + flame orb latias is excellent, it's not just for tyranitar... it fucks up scizor, jirachi, ferrothorn, skarmory, chansey, bronzong, celebi, and various others. if you get a shitty item you can just trick it away to something else later if it's really that important. usually however you're gonna play like a typical latias, checking various pkmn, maybe draco meteor something (more effective if you've fucked up one of your checks/counters like you're supposed to), later use healing wish and hopefully win the game.

so BKC wants all three sub sets merged into 1 as shown below - do we all agree with this?

00:03 BKC shadow ball / focus blast always, then sub (sometimes protect if youre using anything other than taunt, taunt wisp also works well), last move is pain split/wisp/thunder/destiny bond/hp fire/taunt (lefties / black sludge is an option on all of them and is a necessity on the wisp sets)
00:03 pockaway he was talking about keeping 2 sub sets
00:03 BKC i will reiterate this
00:03 jukain offensive 3 atks has protect
00:03 jukain potentially
00:03 pockaway we can't have six slashes, though
00:03 BKC i know
00:03 BKC i mentioned that
00:03 BKC why the fuck not
00:03 BKC they all have uses
00:07 BKC in order
00:07 BKC these are the best
00:08 jukain i faced some of them with my subwisp sunny day flamethrower ninetales and got fucked
00:08 BKC willowisp / pain split / disable / destiny bond / thunder / taunt
00:10 BKC protect is usable with: wisp thunder

Also need more input on Normal Gem Gyarados. BKC wants it slashed with offensive set, which means a 3rd item slash of Normal Gem onto the set. I prefer an AC mention of Normal Gem and Double-Edge.

Our Convo:

01:57 pockaway well the point with d-edge is that you dont NEED to wear down rotom-w / latias
01:57 woodchuck|away 9_9
01:57 pockaway you can just set up DD from the get go
01:58 jukain pocket also brings up a good point
01:58 BKC yea but those things are so easy to wear down (usually you dont even think about it when you hit them with an attack) that i dont think its worth forcing yourself to take recoil which puts you in priority range when its not necessary
01:58 BKC both are options
01:58 BKC i just prefer return
01:58 jukain if both are options, slash both ?_?
01:59 pockaway gyarados has 95 base HP and it's not holding life orb, so the recoil isn't that devastating imo
01:59 pockaway i think it's a worthy price to pay for those crucial KOs
01:59*** ibojangles is now known as ibo|away
01:59 BKC yes but
02:00 BKC when it puts you into range for being revenge killed by scizor/breloom...
02:00 BKC i think both are worthy
02:00 BKC i just think return is better
02:00 BKC plus its not like its hard to get 10-15% on those 2 mons so return koes them
02:01 jukain too bad they're spikes immune -.-
02:01 BKC yea but sr and a weak attack
02:01 BKC and its curtains