Has the right to bear arms become a symptom of allowing a government to become a force to be feared,

Thanks very much Gravedigger, I really appreciate you taking the time in your reply.
That's exactly what I was hoping for from this thread, as I said as an outsider who genuinely wants to learn more about the situation and background
I was wary of how to phrase my questions so as not to annoy Americans who assume that the whole world knows US history or its political process.
Say the wrong thing and it seems that you are dismissed and insulted as being a clueless foreigner.

I have a hard time believeing your posture. This OP sounds like bait or a board for you to intro some sort of subtilty. And by the way you are a
clueless foreigner that seems to care more for tone that information.

But if you are for real just know that gravediggers flow is just one way, a modern way of looking at the rights. The rights were not a concession but
the foundation. Like lets get this clear right up front, at the beginning before we even talk about anything else. They were rights born out of
philosophy. Not bones tossed out to the angry mob with their pitchforks and torches. This idea of concessions diminishes the philosophic history
behind the developments of the concept of human rights and does and will not help you understand them in full measure.

edit on 13-1-2013 by Logarock because: n

I'm going to disagree. It is simply you do not view historical events in the same
fashion I do.As I stated before, there was a Bill of Rights proposed Colonel Mason to be coupled with the Constitution and It was voted down
unanimously, with only the delegation of Massachusetts abstaining. This fact is somehow missed by modern scholars, as to recognize this would fly in
the face of the pristine idea of American governance considering the rights of the average person above all else. Yet it is a fact that cannot be
denied, no matter how you try.

Well qualify this. Why do you think Masons bill of rights was voted down....at first?

Thanks very much Gravedigger, I really appreciate you taking the time in your reply.
That's exactly what I was hoping for from this thread, as I said as an outsider who genuinely wants to learn more about the situation and background I
was wary of how to phrase my questions so as not to annoy Americans who assume that the whole world knows US history or its political process.
Say the wrong thing and it seems that you are dismissed and insulted as being a clueless foreigner.

I have a hard time believeing your posture. This OP sounds like bait or a board for you to intro some sort of subtilty. And by the way you are a
clueless foreigner that seems to care more for tone that information.

But if you are for real just know that gravediggers flow is just one way, a modern way of looking at the rights. The rights were not a concession but
the foundation. Like lets get this clear right up front, at the beginning before we even talk about anything else. They were rights born out of
philosophy. Not bones tossed out to the angry mob with their pitchforks and torches. This idea of concessions diminishes the philosophic history
behind the developments of the concept of human rights and does and will not help you understand them in full measure.

Second, I'm not looking at rights in a philosophical way, I'm analyzing historical events. The Bill of Rights was a concession made. It was a
concession made in order to get the Constitution ratified by the colonies. Without ratification of the Constitution there is no official government
recognized universally by the colonies, and without a Bill of Rights the Constitution would have never been ratified once it was pushed out to the
local level.Believe what you like though.

Well part of that history were the Federalist Papers. Now if you look at those they hardly refelect concessions as the authors made good
case....philosophicaly and historically for the rights. At any rate it dosent look like the two greatest Federalists of the day were in the back room
nashing their teeth over the bill of rights having to be added.

Erm yeah I'm a clueless foreigner, I want to learn more about it, that's why I posted this thread but forgive me for not realising that it is a
topic that can only be discussed by Americans only.

Yes, that's all us clueless foreigners want, Tone.

Now them Sinn Fein boy liked thier rifles now didnt they? Come on now love. You want to ask some of the questions.....look at your own independence
movement for those answers as well. Tell us what you think based on Irish history as to some the the questions you asked in the OP.

Firstly and this irritates me is why I am adressing this before finishing....We (the USA) are a Constituational Republic NOT a democracy. Democracy is
mob rule 50.1% tell the 48.9% what they can and can not do. We do have democratic processes within the Constitutional Republic's framework, but we
maintain checks and balances to ensure no one can take rights from some one else.

Remember when the Taliban promised the people social liberty? And then in turn gave them social programs, but absolutely zero liberty, because the
whole idea was to liberate their social programs from hibernation; not the people's spirit? And in turn they were able to run a legitimate looking
government with staggering variables on their balance sheets, if they even decided to release them?

Erm yeah I'm a clueless foreigner, I want to learn more about it, that's why I posted this thread but forgive me for not realising that it is a
topic that can only be discussed by Americans only.

Yes, that's all us clueless foreigners want, Tone.

Now them Sinn Fein boy liked thier rifles now didnt they? Come on now love. You want to ask some of the questions.....look at your own independence
movement for those answers as well. Tell us what you think based on Irish history as to some the the questions you asked in the OP.

Had a different reply to this one but decided to remain civil.

So your answer to my questions is to tell me to look at a completely different paradigm and be content with that.
I see. 'Love'.

We're the last powerful country left with our guns. Once our guns are gone, we, along with the citizens of other countries, will be at the mercy of
ALL governments.

That's why we cling to our guns. America has undergone this scenario once before, and we'll do it again.

You know what looks like a cult?

Britain looks pretty odd to me. Ever since the Piers Morgan / Alex Jones debate, I've been hearing on ATS, youtube, and facebook, NOTHING but
Englishmen and women whining about how angry and violent Americans are. "Ohhh... Alex Jones was angry... I guess that means all Americans are
insane. This is why I hate America! They should get rid of their guns, caus guns are bad. America is violent... even though the UK's violent crime
triple's American's violent crime, America is the violent one because they have guns!"

My GOD people, We want to govern ourselves, not to be governed.

That was the foundation of America.

We're not gonna hand over our guns and bow. If we go down, we'll go down kicking and screaming.

I'm sorry our love for freedom sounds like a "cult" to you.

And I'm sorry, but that sounds really ignorant.

People who follow Piers Morgan, who believe that guns have the ability to stand up, break out of their gun cabinets, and go kill people of their own
accord--THOSE people sound like a brainwashed cult to me.

Erm yeah I'm a clueless foreigner, I want to learn more about it, that's why I posted this thread but forgive me for not realising that it is a
topic that can only be discussed by Americans only.

Yes, that's all us clueless foreigners want, Tone.

Now them Sinn Fein boy liked thier rifles now didnt they? Come on now love. You want to ask some of the questions.....look at your own independence
movement for those answers as well. Tell us what you think based on Irish history as to some the the questions you asked in the OP.

Had a different reply to this one but decided to remain civil.

So your answer to my questions is to tell me to look at a completely different paradigm and be content with that.
I see. 'Love'.

Not sure if Logarock was trying to be sarcastic, or just being an ass. Either way, good on you HumansEh for remaining civil, you have a good thread
here so far, and It's nice to see a foreigner (though we may be related, you and I) that is trying to learn more about our constitution and bill of
rights instead of jumping on the "Americans are violent and stupid!" bandwagon.

Erm yeah I'm a clueless foreigner, I want to learn more about it, that's why I posted this thread but forgive me for not realising that it is a
topic that can only be discussed by Americans only.

Yes, that's all us clueless foreigners want, Tone.

Now them Sinn Fein boy liked thier rifles now didnt they? Come on now love. You want to ask some of the questions.....look at your own independence
movement for those answers as well. Tell us what you think based on Irish history as to some the the questions you asked in the OP.

Had a different reply to this one but decided to remain civil.

So your answer to my questions is to tell me to look at a completely different paradigm and be content with that.
I see. 'Love'.

Ok. The part about would friends and fellow countrymen turn on each other. The paradigm in the main was the same.

Erm yeah I'm a clueless foreigner, I want to learn more about it, that's why I posted this thread but forgive me for not realising that it is a
topic that can only be discussed by Americans only.

Yes, that's all us clueless foreigners want, Tone.

Now them Sinn Fein boy liked thier rifles now didnt they? Come on now love. You want to ask some of the questions.....look at your own independence
movement for those answers as well. Tell us what you think based on Irish history as to some the the questions you asked in the OP.

Had a different reply to this one but decided to remain civil.

So your answer to my questions is to tell me to look at a completely different paradigm and be content with that.
I see. 'Love'.

Not sure if Logarock was trying to be sarcastic, or just being an ass. Either way, good on you HumansEh for remaining civil, you have a good thread
here so far, and It's nice to see a foreigner (though we may be related, you and I) that is trying to learn more about our constitution and bill of
rights instead of jumping on the "Americans are violent and stupid!" bandwagon.

And 3 pages later and nothing. I have at least tried to challange some of his reasons for questions in the OP.

Erm yeah I'm a clueless foreigner, I want to learn more about it, that's why I posted this thread but forgive me for not realising that it is a
topic that can only be discussed by Americans only.

Yes, that's all us clueless foreigners want, Tone.

Now them Sinn Fein boy liked thier rifles now didnt they? Come on now love. You want to ask some of the questions.....look at your own independence
movement for those answers as well. Tell us what you think based on Irish history as to some the the questions you asked in the OP.

Had a different reply to this one but decided to remain civil.

So your answer to my questions is to tell me to look at a completely different paradigm and be content with that.
I see. 'Love'.

Not sure if Logarock was trying to be sarcastic, or just being an ass. Either way, good on you HumansEh for remaining civil, you have a good thread
here so far, and It's nice to see a foreigner (though we may be related, you and I) that is trying to learn more about our constitution and bill of
rights instead of jumping on the "Americans are violent and stupid!" bandwagon.

And 3 pages later and nothing. I have at least tried to challange some of his reasons for questions in the OP.

Suspicious much?
I am willing to give him the benefit of the the doubt. I have no reason to believe that the OP is not sincere. Besides, there are far worse ways to
learn something about a culture than to ask people in the culture. In fact I think... Lemme check...

Yep, that is probably the best way to do it. Most cultural anthropologists seem to think it is essential to the process anyway.

Let him ask questions and learn without people getting all squinty-eyed with suspicion and defensive. Besides it is sparking a good discussion, much
of the good content I might add, came from you, (barring the sulled-up Inquisitor act).

Erm yeah I'm a clueless foreigner, I want to learn more about it, that's why I posted this thread but forgive me for not realising that it is a
topic that can only be discussed by Americans only.

Yes, that's all us clueless foreigners want, Tone.

Now them Sinn Fein boy liked thier rifles now didnt they? Come on now love. You want to ask some of the questions.....look at your own independence
movement for those answers as well. Tell us what you think based on Irish history as to some the the questions you asked in the OP.

Had a different reply to this one but decided to remain civil.

So your answer to my questions is to tell me to look at a completely different paradigm and be content with that.
I see. 'Love'.

Not sure if Logarock was trying to be sarcastic, or just being an ass. Either way, good on you HumansEh for remaining civil, you have a good thread
here so far, and It's nice to see a foreigner (though we may be related, you and I) that is trying to learn more about our constitution and bill of
rights instead of jumping on the "Americans are violent and stupid!" bandwagon.

And 3 pages later and nothing. I have at least tried to challange some of his reasons for questions in the OP.

Suspicious much?
I am willing to give him the benefit of the the doubt. I have no reason to believe that the OP is not sincere. Besides, there are far worse ways to
learn something about a culture than to ask people in the culture. In fact I think... Lemme check...

Good grief. Relax.

Its the way the post processes down, hits buttons on the way and then ends up in the lap.

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