Does the natural beauty of Colorado prove the existence of God?

Letter-writer Dan Manka shares with us his belief that the wondrous beauty of Colorado, nature and the universe implies the existence of God (which God of the thousands that people have worshiped over the ages, he never says).

With all the different religions, past and present, and their different beliefs that prove your beliefs have more to do with which family you are born into rather than some absolute truth, I wonder what kind of God would judge you on those beliefs as opposed to your actions in life.

I too am awestruck by the magnificence and beauty of the universe, but I come to very different conclusions than Mr. Manka.

Philip Parilla, Lakewood

This letter was published in the Feb. 3 edition.

Just a quick response to the gentleman who expressed amazement that anyone could live in Colorado and not believe in God. One need not follow a monotheistic religion to believe in many things, including physics and the extraordinary vastness of space and geological time. How wondrous it is that the natural world, through a variety of now well-understood forces and processes, could have created the peaks and valleys, nooks and crannies of our beautiful state — not to mention the rest of a pretty fascinating planet teeming with complex biological organisms.

Non-theists don’t need belief in the magic wand of unseen deities to relish the beauty around us. We’re quite content to enjoy it as it was delivered and continues to evolve: naturally, over a very great many years.

Alex Miller, Highlands Ranch

This letter was published in the Feb. 3 edition.

I got a kick out of Dan Manka’s bewilderment on how anyone here in Colorado can “not believe in God” simply because of the natural beauty here. Perhaps it’s easier to be a non-believer in a flat state. Maybe Nebraska? He mentions mountains, canyons, wildlife, flowers, stars, planets, etc. — all telling of a powerful “creator.” As a non-believer myself, let me say that the scientifically fact-based biological explanation for all these incredible wonders is much more awe-inspiring and amazing than an invisible “creator” snapping his magic fingers and having it appear thus.

If Mr. Manka would just read something — besides his Bible — on the natural order of it all, he might gain a truer appreciation of that which is all around everyone everywhere. Even Nebraska.

Michael Hurley, Trinidad

This letter was published online only.

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“I wonder what kind of God would judge you on those beliefs as opposed to your actions in life.”

So do I, Mr. Parilla, so do I.
I bet a true God would judges the actions, good or bad, of atheists aqnd believers far more seriously, than just mere spouted words.

Robtf777

“I bet a true God would judges the actions, good or bad, of atheists and
believers far more seriously, than just mere spouted words.”

=======

Would that not depend on the “actions” and the “mere spouted words”?

Yours and my favorite example: The Crusades. The “actions” of going into a Very UnChrist-like WAR……with all that KILLING and KILLING and KILLING…..overshadows any “claim” that they were “Christians”…..regardless of their “mere spoken words.”

But a Christian who professes “Jesus Christ is Lord” and throws $10.00 into a Salvation Army bucket……does far more good…..than an Atheist who tells and convinces children “There IS NO God” will demanding that The Government raise more taxes to provide food for the hungry.

You see. the only thing that really matters is what matters to GOD……and not the Atheists.

peterpi

And an atheist who clothes the naked or feeds the hungry or visits those in hospitals or in prisons does far more good than those who shout “Jesus is Lord!”, denounces atheism, and are satisfied they have done enough..
Yes indeed, what matters if there is an afterlife is what matters to God — and that applies to all of us.

Dano2

One need not follow a monotheistic religion to believe in many things,
including physics and the extraordinary vastness of space and geological
time. How wondrous it is that the natural world, through a variety of
now well-understood forces and processes, could have created the peaks
and valleys, nooks and crannies of our beautiful state — not to mention
the rest of a pretty fascinating planet teeming with complex biological
organisms.

“My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests.” — George Santayana

Best,

D

peterpi

I’m not sure Spinoza was atheist.
I, too, liked the section you quoted from Mr. Miller.

GregoryR

I was under the impression that Baruch Spinoza was a pantheist, not an atheist. At least that’s what both my courses in church history, philosophy and theology taught.

peterpi

I just took a a quick peak at Wikipedia.
Spinoza liked to use the phrase “nature or God”. He was expelled from a Dutch synagogue for a variety of beliefs which the synagogue’s members felt violated the beauty of the Torah and its 613 commandments, but, to me that merely means he understood God outside the mainstream orthodoxy of Judaism of the time. Apparently many scholars think he was a pantheist. Others think he was a panentheist. Others think he was atheist, though he frequently used the phrase “nature and God” and I think Wikipedia had Spinoza quotations referencing his thoughts on God alone. But “atheist” is easily bandied about by those who can’t understand or refuse to accept someone else’s ideas about God. And, lastly, other scholars think he was being Spinoza.
I’ve read very little about him, other than he rejected the standard orthodoxy of the time.

thor

Alex Miller wrote, in part, – ” not to mention the rest of a pretty fascinating planet teeming with complex biological organisms.” It seems to me that that statement supports the existence of God. Evolutionists need billions of years for “complex organisms” to evolve. It makes more sense for a Creative God to create complex organisms. It sounds clever to say He waved a magic wand. But it isn’t realistic nor does it explain the wonder of God to say he snapped His fingers, either. No, the Heavens do, indeed, declare the Glory of God.

peterpi

“The Heavens Declare the Glory of God”, a wonderful Oratorio by Handel.
Yes, they do, even Einstein said so, even as he believed in an ancient Universe.
Even as many scientists say so, even as they believe in an ancient Universe.
Belief in an ancient universe is not antagonistic to a belief in God, and you ought to know that.
None of us can truly grasp billions of years of time. It is absolutely incomprehensible the amount of time that is. Minor changes occurring over time would easily add up to major changes.
You’d rather a God that simply zapped everything into existence.
I can easily imagine a God that laid the physical, chemical, electrical, and nuclear foundations, then let ‘er rip, and let the Universe unfold.
##########
God said, and it came to be, eh?
God said, let there be light, and poof! there was light.
God said, let there be land and poof! there was land.
God said, let there be swimming things, creepy, crawly things, flying things, and poof there were swimming and creepy, crawly, and flying things. How is that not like waving a wand or snapping fingers?

thor

The biggest thing missing from our discussion is a view of God formed not by our perceptions. When we do that, we will no longer think of creation as the waving of a wand or snapping of the fingers. I would rather think of God as more than that.

peterpi

Everyone’s view of God is shaped by their perceptions, including you.

thor

My point went right on by you. I am totally unsatisfied with my perception of God. I know God is way more than my weak perception of Him. Are you satisfied with your human perception of God? I hope not.

FedUpWithExtremism

Well said Michael Hurley!

jayreadyjay

I find that inanimate molecules suddenly becoming animate and reproducing themselves to be a pretty good proof of something miraculous. But evidently Hurley and you seem to think nature is magic.

peterpi

So, go ahead and believe in a divine origin, and let others believe in a non-divine origin.
And all can gain wonder from the beauty of the natural world.

Robtf777

“So, go ahead and believe in a divine origin, and let others believe in a non-divine origin.
And all can gain wonder from the beauty of the natural world.”
==========
Certainly no one should attempt to FORCE a belief in a “Divine origin” on someone else…….but, let;s do what Jesus often did: Use a parable.

Say there was a fire in a building you are in…….and you KNOW that some people are doing exactly the WRONG thing to do……and are headed TOWARD disaster and the flames.

What obligation, if any, do you have?

peterpi

You say you would not force others to believe, then you make a parable about “carrying someone to safety”.
Hmmm …

DR

Response posted on wrong letter.

peterpi

No, God only made the building combustible, LOL

Phil

You have it wrong. The building isn’t on fire. In your mind the building is burning and you feel you must save others. But some of those people are looking at a non-burning building and wondering what the hell you are taking about. (Pun intended)

peterpi

Robtf sees burning buildings everywhere: People who believe in current cosmology and evolution theories without the need for God or the gods, people who believe in current cosmology and evolution theories with the aid of God or the gods, women who terminate pregnancy, women who prevent pregnancy, GLBT people, liberals, non-Christians, Christians of the non-proper type.
He’s eternally busy rescuing people from burning buildings, even if the building is not on fire, and the people don’t want to leave..

primafacie

Mssrs. Miller and Hurley apparently couldn’t resist showing their disdain for that which they don’t understand. Pity they couldn’t have their valid points with the respect and tact that Mr. Parilla used.

peterpi

I don’t find anything wrong with Ms. Miller’s comments. I thought she was respectful.
And with his “which God” statement, I think that Mr. Parilla could be viewed by some as showing mocking disdain.
I wish certain believers in God would show the respect and dignity towards atheists or humanists that you demand of them towards theists.

primafacie

” … belief in the magic wand of unseen deities … ”

That’s the phrase that caught my eye in Mr. Miller’s letter.

peterpi

And Mr. Parilla with his simplistic, in some believers’ eyes, “I wonder what kind of God …” statement is a paragon of virtue?
As far as magic wands, I’ll let my statement to thor below the break ( #’s) speak for me.

GregoryR

Just out of curiosity how do you know Alex Miller is a she?

peterpi

I’m stumped. I don’t know why I made the assumption. I just did.

Alex Miller

Mr. Miller, thanks

peterpi

Forgive my error.

peterpi

Mr. Manka shows no respect whatsoever in his last paragraph, wholesale condemning an entire class of people he’s never met, had dealings with, etc. He labels them and dooms them to Hell.

jayreadyjay

I think there is plenty of disdain on both sides to go around. But believers tend to be a little more charitable than non-believers as they have a reason to be charitable.

peterpi

That’s only your belief. I guarantee you many atheists would feel differently about some believers’ “charity”. I guarantee you many believers in God who believe differently than other believers in God have a different view of some believers’ “charity”
But go ahead and believe in it if you wish.

Robtf777

“Does the natural beauty of Colorado prove the existence of God?”
————-
All things tend to prove the existence of God.

If the Big Bang were true, the explosion would have caused all matter to explode, each with its own straight trajectory, in a straight line, in an expanding sphere…….at or close to the spped of light……with little if any “clumping”…….forever and ever and ever……without anything causing all those expanding bits of matter……to slow down and reverse direction.

If the Big Bang were true……all matter would be…..lifeless…..with no intelligence…..no ability to think and reason……no ability to care……and no ability to even care to do anything but “naturally” “degenerate” into its lifeless state should it even be possible to “accidentally” come “alive” by “chance.”

In other words…..after the Big Bang…..non-life would be “natural” and “life” would be so “unnatural” that nature would not naturally maintain it.

A Cosmic Big Bang would “naturally” produce “disorder” and NO “laws of nature”…..because “disorder” would be “natural” and “order” would be so “unnatural” that “nature” would not “naturally” maintain any “order.”

Thus…..Order in the Universe proves the existence of God who commanded such “order.”

The fact that some things DO LIVE…..proves the existence of a Living God who created living things.

The fact that some things have Intelligence and can Think and Reason……proves the existence of an Intelligent, Thinking, Reasoning God…..who was able to pass along those attributes to some of the things He created (like humans).

The ONLY alternative…..”evolution”…..violates the Laws of Nature and Physics and Thermodynamics in so many ways……that no serious person who claims intelligence and the ability to think and reason……should ever concoct and believe such a “fairy tale” that has as its roots…..all those VIOLATIONS of the Laws of Nature, Physics, and Thermodynamics.

If an Atheist has to resort to “the Big Bang and evolution” to explain their disbelief in God……I feel sorry for them. I really do.

DR

“Evolution violates the Laws of Nature, Physics, and Thermodynamics that do exist in far too many ways ……that to even suggest that “evolution” is how we got here…..is so ridiculous that it is actually foolish to believe such a fairy tale.”

“The ONLY alternative…..”evolution”…..violates the Laws of Nature and Physics and Thermodynamics in so many ways……that no serious person who claims intelligence and the ability to think and reason……should ever concoct and believe such a “fairy tale” that has as its roots…..all those VIOLATIONS of the Laws of Nature, Physics, and Thermodynamics.”
—————————————

Yeah…except that evolution doesn’t violate the laws of nature, physics or thermodynamics. And we can actually show that evolution happened.

But ok Rob I’ll play along….Which of those laws does evolution violate and how does it violate physics?

Plus, he uses theistic ideas to prove that God exists. So, he’s making arguments that some theists can agree with.
He might as well go back to the Thomistic Proofs. They’re circular logic, also, but they’re from a saint, so that makes them OK.

TLC

I heard this story in a philosophy class on St. Thomas. Apparently, Thomas liked his wine–a lot. When one of his brothers asked him about his over fondness for the fermented fruit of the vine, Thomas allegedly replied: “One swallow does not a summa make.”

This is the “Gospel according to Atheistic Evolutionists”: In the beginning (hmmm…..sound familiar?)…..all matter was concentrated in a “black hole”……that contained no living life…..no intelligence…..no innate ability to think, reason or care. Then…..the “black hole” exploded……

From that explosion……Atheistic Evolutionists claim that……”order” came…..”Laws” came about……and the stars, the galaxies, the planets, and life came about…..and “evolution” evolved one-cell living organisms into mankind…..eventually.

Aside from the “Biblical” correlations we have (a “beginning,” matter, the universe/heavens, Laws, stars, planets (the earth), light, life, and mankind)……what is……”unnatural” about the Myth of the Big Bang and Evolution?

The Big Bang should not “naturally” produce “order” and Laws of nature, physics, and thermodynamics. The Big Band SHOULD “naturally” produce…….a big vast “wasteland” of ever expanding particles of matter……with neither any real order and without responding to any “laws” beyond exploding and in a constant state of exploding.

As a result of the Big Bang……the universe should be an
ever-expanding “wasteland” of ever-expanding particles that get farther
and farther apart…….and that have no real “gravitational” pull on
any other particle……because they are so small.

Galaxies would be an “unnatural” occurrence.

Stars would be unnatural.

Planets would bu unnatural.

Light would be completely unnatural.

Life from non-life would be……absolutely unnatural. Even if a random clump of non-life “could” “accidentally” “come to life”……the Absolutely Natural Thing for it to do would be what? DEGENERATE BACK into non-life. ……NOT “begin an upward expansion into more complex life” which requires more violations of the Laws of nature, physics, and thermodynamic (that should not even “naturally” exist) to accomplish.

In other words……ALL LIFE – including humans – and especially humans – is an ABNORMAL and Completely UNNATURAL by-product of any Big Bang and Evolution……..and Evolution violates the Laws of Nature, Physics, and Thermodynamics that do exist in far too many ways ……that to even suggest that “evolution” is how we got here…..is so ridiculous that it is actually foolish to believe such a fairy tale.

————

But let’s go back to……the real “beginning”…..the one that STARTS with LIFE instead of non-life…..that starts with Intelligence and the ability to Think and Reason instead of a dead, lifeless, unintelligent, unthinking, unreasoning “black hole”…….and see that THAT makes far more sense:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

We START with God…..a Living, Intelligent, Thinking, Reasoning God……..and NOT a big clump of lifeless matter in a “black hole.”

What can MAN do with his little bit of intelligence and thinking? We can……”create”……stuff.

What can God do? God can CREATE STUFF.

God CREATED the heavens and the earth…….far easier than it took mankind to “create” the laptop computer. And God created the stars and the planets……and life.

What else can man do? Hmmmmm. Artificial intelligence? Does that ring a bell?

What can God do? God can use HIS INTELLIGENCE to……allow…..humans…..to think…..intellectually (sometimes) (The Big Bang and Myth of Evolution suggests….very limited “intelligence” in some people.)

What else can man do????? Come up with “laws”…..like criminal laws and civil laws?

What can God do? God can come up with Laws (“nature,” physics, thermodynamics) that control the physical universe (and that even holds the atoms together).

Everything man can “intellectually” do……God can do…..better……and did.

The Whole Creation of God……testifies to the very existence of God.

The alternative that sinful man came up with (Big Bang and evolution) is such a silly fairy tale…….that no one of any intelligence should believe…….if they are open to the truth.

philipparilla

The Post slightly changed my original letter. Here is the letter as I had sent it in:

Letter writer, Dan Manka, shares with us his belief that the wondrous
beauty of Colorado, nature, and the universe implies, in his mind, the
existence of God (which God of the thousands that people have
worshiped over the ages, he never says). Whichever God he believes
in, apparently wants to be acknowledged as Mr. Manka admonishes us to
do just that or suffer the consequences (how he knows the wants of
God, he also does not say). With all the different religions, past
and present, and their different beliefs that prove your beliefs have
more to do with which family you are born into rather than some
absolute truth, I wonder what kind of God would judge you on those
beliefs as opposed to your actions in life? I too am awestruck by the
magnificence and beauty of the universe, but I come to very different
conclusions than Mr. Manka.

peterpi

If God exists, no one can know the wants of God, including those who all too often hurl judgement in God’s name.

philipparilla

For the record, I am a scientist and have devoted my life to the study of nature and the universe. There are many posts that claim that the present state of the universe could not be without divine intervention. This is false (don’t just trust my word for it but do a thorough investigation yourself and don’t limit yourself to just the sources you want to believe). According to our current understanding, there is nothing in the universe that requires divine intervention or some other supernatural cause. If this were not the case, this, in itself, would have been the greatest discovery of all time and proved the existence of the supernatural. Yes, there are many things that science has not yet explained but this does not imply that God must have done it. This is the “God of the gaps” argument and if you place your stake in the ground on that, you will find your real estate ever diminishing. Science will never disprove God’s existence either; you can’t prove a negative. Instead you will need to look at the available evidence and decide for yourself. I would just caution you to make sure you really understand the evidence as there is a lot of misinformation out there and posted below.

peterpi

Very nicely put.
By definition, God is beyond science’s ability to proof or disprove.
Or,
If you have to have proof, it isn’t faith.

TLC

I know of no absolute proof of the existence of God. I also know of no proof that God does not exist. Proofs for God depend on how one “defines” God and what proofs one is willing to accept. If one only accepts “empirical” proof and defines God as “non-empirical,” one concludes there is no God. On the other hand, even Aristotle posited an “unmoved mover,” which started the great chain of causation. In short, a belief in God is intellectually respectable. Most philosophers, until recent times, believed in God.

In the end, it’s a decision, a leap of faith. And it’s not just an intellectual proposition–it’s a decision about life itself. Does life have value? Do I have value? Is life just a meaningless struggle for survival or does it have meaning and purpose? Does it matter what I do? Or not?

If you decide there is a God, you find God in everything. If you decide there isn’t a God, you will not find God in an argument or a sunset or a mountain. As far as I can tell, most people decide there is a God. But many don’t. So be it. Atheists show great courage to face death believing it is the complete end of their existence. And we don’t know what they discover in the “undiscovered country.”

peterpi

I really liked your “Does” questions. I like to say science answers the “What”? Religion answers the “Why?” — or “Does”.
And, it is a matter of faith. If it could be proved, it wouldn’t be faith.

irisman

The existence or non-existense of God can’t be proved, so people can believe what they want. People will fight over things that can’t be proven, because there is no way to settle the argument without a fight to the death.

TomFromTheNews

“People will fight over things that can’t be proven, because there is no way to settle the argument without a fight to the death.”

Hence the story of war, and terrorism, and oppression, and the sometimes tragic nature of the human race.

Guidelines: The Post welcomes letters up to 150 words on topics of general interest. Letters must include full name, home address, day and evening phone numbers, and may be edited for length, grammar and accuracy.

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