The problem is that these countries do not have the same foreign policy, and do not make use of their navies in the same way.To put is simply, in 1996 there was a major crisis between Greece and Turkey, that almost led to war. The crisis was centered around some islets. The 2-3 days of the crisis' peak, both Turkey and Greece had concentrated naval untis around the spot. And I ask you, if say there was a "mediterranean" fleet instead of the greek one, would Spain or Italy be willing to send their ships to the aegean, facing potential destruction? If the answer is no, then there is no use for Greece to fund big naval units for fleets that won't protect her.The only chance for a seriously commited multinational force for Greece is with Cyprus (basically that's already the case of the cypriot national guard, as there is some serious mixing of manpower and equipment).

Edited by xristar - 24-Jun-2008 at 22:38

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.

^ agreed. No one wants to get involved with the aegean/cyprus issues. Powers like the Russians or French may choose to be involved but only in the background, same for the UK/USA/Isreal. Better to have the option to be involved as well as the flexibility of how to be involved.

A joint fleet would put lives at risk and be an open case for war, to big a commitment that would be caveated away and nothing that Greece could rely on or gain value from.

IIsrael has requested (as I already said) that S-300 and HAWK participate, but Greece refused.

Given the long range, and the request of Israel for participation of the SAMs, and generally the nature of the exercise, it very strongly seems to be a rehearsal for an attack against Iran.

A report claims, that Greece switched the s-300 on for Israeli benefit. i think this is speculation or disinformation. no way they would turn those on.

While the Israeli-Greek air tactics were amply reported in the world’s media after initial reports in the New York Times,
the pivotal information from Greece’s S-300 batteries has remained
below the radar. By swarming its jets into the S-300’s massive
electronics, Israel was able to record invaluable information about
defeating, jamming and circumventing the Russian system.

Israel dubbed its exercise “Glorious Spartan.” It is recalled that
300 glorious Spartans went down in history by forestalling the massive
Persian army at a tiny land passage at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480
BC. The tiny Jewish State is now contemplating whether it must act
unilaterally to forestall Iran’s nuclear threat.

Iranian officials complained bitterly to Athens after the exercise,
but were told by Greek officials that their Russian-made radar-missile
batteries were “turned off” during the exercise, according to Greek,
Russian and Iranian sources. Those sources expressed incredulity that
Greece would “turn off” its critical radar installations and air
defense during such an exercise. Shortly after that exercise, Iran
began signaling to European diplomats that Tehran might be willing to
negotiate in earnest.

From what I know, Greece didn't switch on any of her AA, and in fact took special provisions to hide the russian AA.The excercise wasn't so much a rehearsal for an attack against Iran because: 1)most of the action took place above the sea, south of Crete 2)no electronic warfare and jamming devices were used in the ecercise, elements essential in an attack against Iran. Glorious Spartan was an excercise pretty similar to many others that Israel has done in the past.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.

What is the standard assault rifle in Greek army? I read that there are plans to adopt G36 as the new standard rifle.

The G3, if you consider it an "assault rifle".Greece made two competitions for a new rifle, in both of which the winner was the G36. Normally, the new rifle programme should have began already, but the recent cutbacks it defense badgets meant that the new rifle programme has been cancelled (officially postponed for after 2010, but I think there'll be a new competition). The agreement for the G36 had almost come to close, as most details had been decided. Greece would produce 100% of the value of the rifle (for the fist time!).

My oppinion is that the G36 is not suitable for the Greek army. The average greek infantryman is a conscript, who will 1)not know how to fully exploit the G36's elegant sights 2)will abuse the relatively "soft" G36, which will easily break (its sights and its plastic butt especially).

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.

An interesting piece of news: it has been decided that the submarines of the navy will be increased to 12, from the original plan for 10 (currently we have 8 submarines).

Yikes, due to their incredible complexity, each submarine must be manned by two crews (crews rotate between continous training, rest and actually operating the submarine). That means that Greece needs 840 men with marketable high technology skills in submarines alone. That does not include hundreds of others doing depot level maintenance etc. .

Do Greek conscripts with appropriate skills serve on submarines? If not, how is the Greek navy going to attract and keep these people with competition from the European Union private sector?

An interesting piece of news: it has been decided that the submarines of the navy will be increased to 12, from the original plan for 10 (currently we have 8 submarines).

Yikes, due to their incredible complexity, each submarine must be manned by two crews (crews rotate between continous training, rest and actually operating the submarine). That means that Greece needs 840 men with marketable high technology skills in submarines alone. That does not include hundreds of others doing depot level maintenance etc. .

Do Greek conscripts with appropriate skills serve on submarines? If not, how is the Greek navy going to attract and keep these people with competition from the European Union private sector?

Greek conscript dont serve in the submarines , only professionals do this job .

People that serve in submarines retire very early (about 45 year old) and they have many benefits but the guy that i know (he is retired and working in the private sector now) telling me that was very heavy to staying sometimes 6 months on patrol (away from your family).

hey what this im hearing 30 more f-16's no new trainer jets? bloody hell, get the trainers.

buckeyes are museum pieces. They say 20 more NH-90's which is good the helicopter force needs to be updated and rationalized

30 more F16? NoThe trainer programme is not discussed now. It has been postponed. The gap is partially filled with A-7 retiring from active service.20 more NH-90s? We haven't even received the first 20! But still, the next to be purchased will indeed propably be Nh-90.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.

hey what this im hearing 30 more f-16's no new trainer jets? bloody hell, get the trainers.

buckeyes are museum pieces. They say 20 more NH-90's which is good the helicopter force needs to be updated and rationalized

30 more F16? NoThe trainer programme is not discussed now. It has been postponed. The gap is partially filled with A-7 retiring from active service.20 more NH-90s? We haven't even received the first 20! But still, the next to be purchased will indeed propably be Nh-90.

my mistake i misread this. The problem is they are not planning new jets at all. or it seems that way. they need the EF and IMO one standardized F16 block across that fleet. Maritime patrol craft is a must have as are those trainers. and yes NH90

Why they are getting more frigates is beyond me, 4 more subs will be enough for the time being.

We lost an AH-64 Apache to accident, during a training exercise. We don't know the fate of the pilots, we hope for the best, but predictions are pessimistic, as the helicopter exploded massively and caused a big fire, which is being put out right now.

EDIT: The pilots were found both, burnt and dead, strapped with their seatbelts.The helicopter seems to have hit the ground during a night exercise. It was full of ammunition and fuel, making the job of the firefighters very difficult, as it countinued burning and exploding long after the crash.

Edited by xristar - 06-Nov-2008 at 21:25

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.

Strictly not relevant with this thread, but worth being mentioned: Cyprus' former president Tassos Papadopoulos passed away a few days ago. He was in many ways a worthy politician. He liked to appease the people but he also was a proud Greek, perhaps among the last in our nation. He refused the Anan paln of 2004, saying the legendary: "I received a sovereign country, I will not hand over a community". R.I.P.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.

Hmm. according to defencenet.gr, we decided to purchase an additional 24 PzH 2000 new. Together with the 12 used from Germany, that's 36 more (we already got 24).Interesting nonetheless, hope that's true. The PzH 2000 has proven to a magnificent piece of equipment. If you take in account the 190+ M109A2G2 we will buy , that means our aritllery will be totally reformed and modernized in the future (that is very essential, as Turkey is currently building on her own some 300 Firtina K9 guns)

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.

Hmm. according to defencenet.gr, we decided to purchase an additional 24 PzH 2000 new.
Together with the 12 used from Germany, that's 36 more (we already got
24).Interesting nonetheless, hope that's true. The PzH 2000 has proven
to a magnificent piece of equipment. If you take in account the 190+
M109A2G2 we will buy , that means our aritllery will be totally
reformed and modernized in the future (that is very essential, as
Turkey is currently building on her own some 300 Firtina K9 guns)

I hope that is true. One of my favorite pieces in their army. This thing is the leading howitzer and i never thought 24 would make much of a difference. I wondered if they were going to double that number (and then once more) but looks like their practically there. Building these up with a hardened Command and Control + MLRS should do the trick.

The K9 would be a formidable weapon, the M109 derivatives are not going to 100% match it, the PzH 2000 will. The Turks will be able to produce those in big numbers and they are not very expensive for what they get so, the artillery side of things have to be upgraded for Greece.

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