(16-09-2015 01:25 PM)jennybee Wrote: No, God used Campbell's time and space soup mix and threw in a few stars as seasoning. Nuked it in the microwave for 5 seconds. Stirred then added plants, animals, and people (kind of like soup crackers).

Did gawd go to universe cooking school, or just throw it together ?
Oh wait. He "designed it". Silly me.

(16-09-2015 01:03 PM)trevor_jennings Wrote: how do you time and space came to be. did it just appear??

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: the phrase "just appear" is rather pointless when you attempt to apply it to time itself, since, by definition, there was no time when time did not exist. But, setting that aside for the moment, causal relationships also require time in order to exist. Without time, there can be no cause and effect. The idea of a creator is not just unnecessary, but nonsensical; without causal relationships, the creator could not cause the universe to come into being.

The idea of a creator is neither necessary nor coherent.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it." - A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner

(16-09-2015 10:00 AM)trevor_jennings Wrote: So all im hearing from all of is that the universe came from absolutely nothing. I swear you guys have a really ignorant sense of mind and choose to not believe the obvious. The universe is way to complex to made from nothing...you guys are absurd

Bill...is that you?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce

Meh. I really want to chime in on this.... except I've got to get homework done.

... (sighs) I guess homework is going to win out this time, especially since OP seems more interested in trying to make what he probably thinks is a controversial statement to stir the pot rather than engaging in a real conversation.

(16-09-2015 10:00 AM)trevor_jennings Wrote: So all im hearing from all of is that the universe came from absolutely nothing. I swear you guys have a really ignorant sense of mind and choose to not believe the obvious. The universe is way to complex to made from nothing...you guys are absurd

Hmmmm.....You won't hear that from me. I think it is crucial for you to define the universe. I define the universe as the sum total of what exists. Given this definition the universe could not have a cause since the law of causality presupposes existence. If the universe is the sum total of what exists then there could not be a cause before anything existed. That commits the fallacy of the stolen concept by using the concept "cause" while denying existence. The fallacy of the stolen concept is akin to attempting to lift the chair you are sitting in over your head. It can't be done. That's why the question "who created the universe?" or "what caused the universe" is fallacious.

The very Idea of explaining or accounting for the universe is what is absurd. What would such a cause refer to if not something that exists. If you point to something that exists to account for existence you haven't accounted for existence. Causes only apply within the universe. It's perfectly valid to ask what caused the stars and galaxies to form or what caused the universe to expand from a hotter and denser state but when talking about what caused existence to exist, you commit the fallacy I mentioned above. If you ask me, it is absurd to start reasoning from "nothing" in the first place. It's equally absurd to start with a non-objective starting point such as "God". by beginning your worldview with a form of consciousness you are also committing the fallacy of the stolen concepts because consciousness, like causality, presupposes existence. A consciousness without anything to be conscious of is a contradiction. That's what starting with a consciousness that created everything distinct from itself logically leads to. No, the only proper and valid starting point to a worldview is the fact that existence exists.

I think you need to give this issue a lot more careful thought Trevor, and watch those stolen concepts! They'll trip you up every time.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick

(16-09-2015 10:00 AM)trevor_jennings Wrote: So all im hearing from all of is that the universe came from absolutely nothing. I swear you guys have a really ignorant sense of mind and choose to not believe the obvious. The universe is way to complex to made from nothing...you guys are absurd

And you are a rude troll with poor spelling ability.

You will be taken real seriously around here.

And WTF is 'sense of mind'?

Never mind...just go away.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

(16-09-2015 11:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: No one said it "came from nothing".To say "come from", (space)time had to ALREADY be in place. The statement "the universe came from" (anything), is therefore absurd, as spacetime was NOT in place until this universe formed. No one knows if/what the energy of this universe arose from. But the total energy of this universe is zero. ("0"). Gravity can have a negative energy, (which of course you didn't know as you are totally ignorant of science). So actually, if the total energy of the universe is zero, there is nothing to even talk about. Zero is nothing. Nothing came from nothing.

It would help a lot if you knew some science, and didn't use your gawd as a gap argument filler/place-holder for everything you have no explanation for. That's all you god is to you. A place-holder.

how do you [know how?] time and space came to be. did it just appear??

What caused the universe to expand and cool is a question for the special sciences to answer. We still don't know the exact cause.

Philosophically all we can say is that it came from existence because non-existent things don't cause anything to appear.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick