Where did the low-normal/rapid-rise derailleur go?!

I just picked up a new bike with the new XTR 2x10 system. I love it EXCEPT! the only option on the rear derailleur is top-normal. Does anyone know if Shimano is going release a Shadow Rapid Rise derailleur?

I've been using rapid-rise for 10 years. It makes uphill shifting so much better. My brain is programmed for it, and now every time I come to a hill I end up gearing up instead of down! I needs my rapid-rise!

Does Shimano read this forum? It's strange they don't have any way to provide feedback on their own website.

I'm hoping they haven't given up on rapid-rise. In my opinion, rapid rise should be the standard. I'm going to have a hell of a time switching between my older bike with rapid-rise and new bike with top-normal. Ug.

I read somewhere around here that the newer shadow derailleurs donīt play well together with RR inverted parallelograms. Something about cable routing and pull I believe.
Dual Controls were matched with RR derailleurs, but were not exclusive of them. Actually RR derailleurs were already here long before DC. So, yes, thay took the same bus out of shimano town, but they didnīt arrive on the same one
Not saying anyone above said so, just thought was worth making the point clear.
BTW, anyone noticed that is the first year that shimano doesnīt show XTR V brakes on the new group? Another one that is gone, and these were really good. Iīm going to buy a set before they go. Just to keep them.They donīt deserve to be forgotten...

Last edited by What&son; 05-11-2011 at 03:27 AM.

"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordly evidence of the fact." George Elliot

My favourite combo was running 7 speed thumbies with the XTR RR derailleurs, that way you pushed both shifters forward to go faster. That was the same advantage that made them a good match with the dual controls, the lever push was the same for both left and right for upshifting.

I suspect that RR derailleurs just had too small a sales volume to keep going with them as they really seemed to rub a lot of people the wrong way, I liked the quick downshift action on them.

I've been using rapid-rise for 10 years. It makes uphill shifting so much better. My brain is programmed for it, and now every time I come to a hill I end up gearing up instead of down! I needs my rapid-rise!

/Guad

OK, now including you and rockyuphill, that makes 7 people who liked retard rise.

Thank god Shimano gave up on it. Few wanted it when it came out, and few want it now. In fact, shortly after Shimano came out with it is when SRAM started having success because Shimano was pushing RR, and people didn't want it, so they bought SRAM. RR goes down in history as the shrinking of Shimano and the growth of SRAM. No, I don't like SRAM, as I've only preferred Shimano shifters for over 15 years.

Is there no help for the rapid rise rider?

Originally Posted by rockyuphill

Rapid rise and dual control took the same bus out of Shimano town.

I love my dual control shifters, and on Monday broke my derailleur. I can't find any rapid rise derailleurs at any local bike shops, and we have many around Seattle. I'll end up buying off eBay, probably used. I may opt to by two so that I don't have to "upgrade" my shifters if I break my new (used) derailleur some day.

Shimano, if you do read the fora here, please either make a limited production run. You can charge more than normal to offset the higher costs of a small run since our only other option is to also replace our shifters, and in my case my brake levers as well.

OK, now including you and rockyuphill, that makes 7 people who liked retard rise.

Thank god Shimano gave up on it. Few wanted it when it came out, and few want it now. In fact, shortly after Shimano came out with it is when SRAM started having success because Shimano was pushing RR, and people didn't want it, so they bought SRAM. RR goes down in history as the shrinking of Shimano and the growth of SRAM. No, I don't like SRAM, as I've only preferred Shimano shifters for over 15 years.

Actually it is eight people you narrow minded pin-head. RR feels so much more natural but of corse I use my brakes "moto" style. Guess I need to stock up on RR deraileurs.

That makes me the number 8 RR fanboy. Bring it back, Shimano! It is so intuitive...I know it made it so much easier to teach my wife how to shift. Press the right lever down...the chain goes down to the next gear. Press it up, the chain goes up. It doesn't get any better than that.

I can't say if it's more intuitive or not, but it certainly makes more sense to me. I'm more likely to need to quickly grab an easier gear than quickly grab a harder gear. If I come round a bend and there's a steep pinch right there, it's quicker for me to move my index finger to the little trigger and pull back, or push my thumb forward (I have dual pull on both bikes) and rapidly index through the gears. Top normal I have to move my thumb around the big lever then onto it, and even though I can get a few gears per stroke, it's still slower.

Guess I should get a couple of spare RR derailleurs while they're selling cheap, to last me a few years, then see what happens after that.

I never had any great desire to go 10 speed so another few years of 9 should be fine.

Good! They're probably sitting in the junk heap next to the biopace chain rings. RR and DC were probably the biggest duds in Shimano's history. If I had this stuff I'd give it to you guys just to get it out of my sight

I can't believe that you RR guys are coming out in the tens of thousands! Scratch that...tens.

Originally Posted by caspar

I have stocked up on RR rear mechs.
And now Im just waiting for the new Ultegralevel flatbar 10spd shifter , then Im off to 2x10spd RR land , cant wait :-)
cheers

You're in luck! The Ultegra level 10-speed flat bar shifters have been out for years!
The SL-R770 "non series component" shift levers are considered as Ultegra level. Unfortunately, they're expensive! Note that they will not work on the current generation of Dyna-Sys 10-speed stuff, but they'll work with the previous 9-speed derailleurs with 10-speed cassettes as well as all of the 10-speed road stuff. The tech info specifies specific front derailleurs, but I believe you can use mtb derailleurs, but I can't confirm.

Add me to that list! Love the rapid rise.......too bad they will not be making it anymore. Its the only reason why I kept using Shimano over the years.
When I finally upgrade to 10 speed Ill probably go SRAM. Does the same job and is lighter! Here is no reason to stick with Shimano.
Hope Shimano is listening........There is a market for it

Little history for BLASTER1200
Rapid Rise made its first appearance in the 8 Speed models M951 (Circa 1997 or 1998 I believe). In 2003 with the release of the 960 series they only produced the rear derailleur which was rapid rise (M960) and came out with the Dual control shifters (no triggers). That is when people started to really look at SRAM as a serious alternative. SRAM came out with trigger shifters around this time as well....etc etc.... and yes the Dual controls were not very well liked. But as we see choice is always a good thing in the bike industry

Why rush to 10spd, nothing fantastic there IMHO, at least not for me to loose RR, so I'm stocking up on RR RDs to last me a few years - FYI CRC has them in stock, so stock up.

Originally Posted by ATOMICned

Add me to that list! Love the rapid rise.......too bad they will not be making it anymore. Its the only reason why I kept using Shimano over the years.
When I finally upgrade to 10 speed Ill probably go SRAM. Does the same job and is lighter! Here is no reason to stick with Shimano.
Hope Shimano is listening........There is a market for it

Little history for BLASTER1200
Rapid Rise made its first appearance in the 8 Speed models M951 (Circa 1997 or 1998 I believe). In 2003 with the release of the 960 series they only produced the rear derailleur which was rapid rise (M960) and came out with the Dual control shifters (no triggers). That is when people started to really look at SRAM as a serious alternative. SRAM came out with trigger shifters around this time as well....etc etc.... and yes the Dual controls were not very well liked. But as we see choice is always a good thing in the bike industry

Whenever I change chainrings in the front, I use the same finger on my other hand to match gears so my cadence doesnt change. Left thumb in to shift to the big ring, right thumb in a click or two to go down 1-2 gears on the cassette for a smooth transition. Left index finger in to drop to the granny gear, right index in to move the chain to 1-2 cogs smaller out back for a smooth change in cadence.

RR seems like this would be all backwards. Sure you would have to think 'thumbs mean i'm speeding up, index fingers mean I'm slowing down' but that seems more confusing on the bike. At least to me.

What's so hard about both thumb levers switch to a harder gear and both triggers shift to an easier gear, pretty natural to me. Using "normal" RDs is confusing and caused me loads of wrong shifts before I moved to RR when I was first starting.

Originally Posted by GTscoob

How is rapid-rise more intuitive than standard shifting?

RR seems like this would be all backwards. Sure you would have to think 'thumbs mean i'm speeding up, index fingers mean I'm slowing down' but that seems more confusing on the bike. At least to me.

Yep Thumbs for big gears, fingers for small gears. If you were a noob it would be easy to teach you that skill. If all derailleurs were originally designed RR than we would be saying how crazy High Normal derailleurs are......

I'm a noob regarding front derailleurs after running 1x9s and singlespeeds for years and standard derailleurs make more sense for recovery shifting, at least to me. The faster/slower thought process works for y'all since you're used to RR, but I just think standard derailleurs are better for effective recovery shifting and cadence management.

And based on the market research Shimano has done, I'm sure I'm not alone in this regard.

High Normal derailleurs may be able to gear into your lower gears faster, but not by much. With the advent of ramps and gates on the cogset rapid rise actually works better (I know this has been discussed a thousand times on these forums) using them to move up and down the cogset thus reducing wear on the chain yada yada yada......(When gears were first made there was no ramps/gates so brute force from the derailleur was used to move the chain) and so it is still with high normal......

I will agree that Rapid-Rise is more intuitive than standard shifters.
I start a lot of beginners into mountain biking, and one of the first things I explain is the shifting. With "normal" shifters, pushing the left thumb lever makes the gears harder, but pushing with the right thumb makes the gears easier. So beginners have difficulties remembering which lever makes the gears easier or harder. And I always hate having to openly say to those with normal shifters, "yeah, it's backwards and confusing."

Since pulling either index finger lever on the Rapid Rise makes the gears easier, it's easier to understand and remember. This is why beginners flocked to and embrace RR.

Overall performance of RR is ok when it's new and working good, but if performance slightly deteriorates, you're screwed on shifts into easier gears in the back, whereas with normal systems, you're essentially pushing it into easier gears. A slight mis-shift into taller gears doesn't cause you to stop going up a hill on standard shifting.

Atomicned, dual control shifters are another issue altogether. I disliked those too. Like RR, conceptually it was a great idea.

I don't care that much about rapid rise but I love my dual control. I now have 2 MTBs with it. One XTR one XT, both shift beautifully. It looks like shimano cheaped out a lot in 2012. They used to offer 3 different kinds of brake calipers too. Now they have 1 and stupid adapters....

I'm having a hard time figuring out why SRAM and Shimano gave up on rapid rise. I think it makes a ton more sense and actually more functional when shifting. I'm new to the SRAM 10 speed stuff and did my first race yesterday. When I was shifting to go uphill, it took a lot more effort and coordination to scoop 1-2 gears with my thumb. Tapping the front trigger is a much easier (and more coordinated) transition into an uphill.

I've been reading a lot about it, and it seems as though the main gap to retrofitting an XTR RR derailleur is the shifting ratio from 9 speed to 10 speed? I assume changing the derailleur wheels is fairly easy.

Has anyone tried it or have details on the shift ratios that would be needed to make it work?

Better yet, any SRAM or Shimano reps reading this that could knock on someone's door to get this into their production line? I would buy one without hesitation and it seems like there a lot of folks on this chain that would also.

I just broke my XTR 952 (stick)...and I have the dual control brake/shifters. When the cable was under tension, it would shift up (easier) in gear. Which XT Shadow derailleur would be a good replacement?
Thanks!

Having been both a mechanic and in sales for many years, the "general population" of riders never embraced rapid-rise very well. I, personally liked the Dual-Control levers a lot, but also know that most people didn't. I won't diss someone's preference for a shifting system - you like what you like. But I liked being able to "force" a 3 or 4 gear shift to a lower gear with a single thumb push. Let up on your effort, make the shift in a second or so, then power on when you needed to get up a steep section on a tight, blind-corner trail, etc... I had a buddy with RR that did 3 or 4 clicks on his RR-equipped bike, and had to power on before the bike had taken it's time shifting, and his rear derailleur kept right on going into the rear spokes. Broken derailleur and a couple of mangled spokes.

Shimano pushing RR on the population is what gave SRAM it's foot in the door with both customers and manufacturers. While I personally prefer Shimano equipment in most cases, it did end up giving us a choice of another component line that works very well - most SRAM vs. Shimano picks are made because of ergonomic preferences. Now if SRAM would only get away from DOT Brake fluid and dial their brakes in a bit more, we'd have a really good competition, IMO.

I switched out my RR a few months ago to go back to top normal. But I completely get the people who love RR. It does make sense and work well. I just couldn't get my brain to adjust after 10 years of top normal. I found myself having to think about every shift rather than it being unconscious. It was even worse when I switched bikes occasionally and couldn't remember how to shift.

Even now I'm having to relearn top normal but its coming back to me. It all boils down to the old adage: "Which one is best? The one your'e used to."

To me it has nothing to do with shifting patterns. We all have got the ability to learn new stuff.

What made me a fan of RR, and this was my personal feel even before encountering Sheldon Brown's premise on the subject, was the fact that it seemed to induce less stress on the drivetrain.

On an emergency, a RR derailleur, having to do it's own shifting onto bigger cogs only with the help of its spring is better than the top normal design which requires mashing into the shifter and unnaturally forcing the chain to change gears.

On the contrary, when you shift into smaller cogs on a RR design it usually means you're gaining speed and having the ability to do somehow smooth transitions. Therefore forcing the shifter/chain shouldn't be happening.

Having said that, I'm still using a 9spd RR rear derailleur. But I'll be needing a new drivetrain soon. At the present, to me, doesn't make much sense to acquire a complete 9spd set if I can get the newer 10spd designs with a considerably small price difference. Yes I do prefer the RR design, but those parts have been discontinued and I usually keep my stuff a considerable large amount of time by comparison to the average mtber. I won't stash parts for rainy days, can't see that as cost effective, and I also feel we shouldn't stop on time, so with some sadness goodbye RR.

If someone on Shimano is seeing this, please do re-engineer current rear derailleurs and reintroduce the system. I'll be buying them as other will.

Whenever I change chainrings in the front, I use the same finger on my other hand to match gears so my cadence doesnt change. Left thumb in to shift to the big ring, right thumb in a click or two to go down 1-2 gears on the cassette for a smooth transition. Left index finger in to drop to the granny gear, right index in to move the chain to 1-2 cogs smaller out back for a smooth change in cadence.

RR seems like this would be all backwards. Sure you would have to think 'thumbs mean i'm speeding up, index fingers mean I'm slowing down' but that seems more confusing on the bike. At least to me.

If people like rapid rise, for whatever reason, that's fine with me, but "more intuitive" isn't a valid reason IMO.

If you have used any shifting system for 5 rides or more, and you are still thinking about which way to shift up or down, you must have brain damage or something. Every shifitng system is equally intuitive once you get into the habit of it, I think.