It seems to me that you are taking all this a little to seriously, what is your stake in this game? Why do you have such a personal beef with jundo cohen? Maybe you should be working with your own mind and not trying to just drag others down?

It seems to me that you are taking all this a little to seriously, what is your stake in this game? Why do you have such a personal beef with jundo cohen? Maybe you should be working with your own mind and not trying to just drag others down?

It seems to me that you are taking all this a little to seriously, what is your stake in this game? Why do you have such a personal beef with jundo cohen? Maybe you should be working with your own mind and not trying to just drag others down?

It seems to me that you are taking all this a little to seriously, what is your stake in this game? Why do you have such a personal beef with jundo cohen? Maybe you should be working with your own mind and not trying to just drag others down?

Followers of the Way [of Chán], if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others. Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it! If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk. Then for the first time you will gain emancipation, will not be entangled with things, will pass freely anywhere you wish to go.

Those who have fulfilled the ten stages of bodhisattva practice are no better than hired field hands; those who have attained the enlightenment of the fifty-first and fifty-second stages are prisoners shackled and bound; arhats and pratyekabuddhas are so much filth in the latrine; bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys ~Línjì Yìxuán

Nothing but hitching posts for donkeys! Slander! Obviously this Línjì character had no idea what he was talking about. What a foolish idiot! But reading this thread makes me curious. Has anyone else here received official dharma transmission from an actual Zen Master, besides Jundo? Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.

One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

seeker242 wrote: Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.

Who gets to be called Zen master? Do you think having that title really reflects genuine accomplishment, or is it really just a position in a hierarchy?

So you are insinuating Zen masters(not the Japanese temple owner types, because we know your story on that one) don't care about the accomplishments/realization of the people who they give dharma transmission to?

seeker242 wrote: Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.

Oh, sometimes they do give to just anyone, or to someone they think they know but really don't, or someone they know but who later changes in nature (perhaps not True Nature, but human nature anyway). The blind leading the blind.

Lineage and "Dharma Transmission" have a lot of 'hype' about em too. As with choosing a physician for one's heart surgery, a white coat and fancy medical diploma on the wall says something ... but not everything ... and so it is with the Heart Sutra! Of course, the credentials and approval of a senior teacher(s) and years of experience and satisfied patients and reputation for talent and "track record" and absence of scandal all make it more likely that the fellow with the title is not a butcher or charlatan.

I would probably tend to trust the fellow with the Title and Lineage more than the self-styled teachers, although there are so many excellent self-styled (and non-self-styled) teachers too. That's because there are lots of quacks running around with white coats they bought themselves at the medical supply store, self-awarded qualifications and snake oil they cooked up ... and I wouldn't let one of em come near me!

In choosing a Buddhist teacher or physician or used car ... caveat emptor.

seeker242 wrote: Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.

Oh, sometimes they do give to just anyone, or to someone they think they know but really don't, or someone they know but who later changes in nature (perhaps not True Nature, but human nature anyway). The blind leading the blind.

Who among your fellows do you believe is "blind"? If that's what you really believe it would be responsible, least others be lead by them, for you to name names, wouldn't it?

shel wrote:As for Jundo's homogenized Dharma, it seems that at least you and Gregkavarnos are buying, plus whatever students he has.

Buying? First of all I am in Greece, we have no money in order to buy anything... especially overpriced American products. Secondly, you have no idea who I am so how can you possibly judge? You seriously believe the Mahayana Sutras werew written by the Buddha? Go for it! I personally am a Vajrayana practitioner but I do not buy the whole "the Buddha taught Vajrayana secretly to a handful of students that whipped it out when the time was ripe" BS, I am happy to accept teachings that are obviously the teachings of an enlightened being without them having to pretend they were the words of the Buddha. Ven Huinengs Platfrom Sutra is a perfect example, or the Madhyamaka teachings of Nagarjuna, etc... Many teachings inconsistent with the Dharma Seals have crept into the Buddhist Canon just coz somebody slapped: "Thus have I heard..." at the beginning of their fairytale. And I did not arrive at this conclusion after listening to three minutes of Jundo's video a couple of days ago. I remind you of my earlier statement:

... "Luckily" I had the advantage of reading both Sutra and Sutta before being introduced to Buddhist sectarian polemics (via e-sangha actually) and so had the benefit of seeing both sides before knowing there are two (or more) sides.

Now, like I said before, if you have an axe to gring with Mr. Jundo then go ahead and grind it, don't try to set up an "us and them" dichotomy though, especially where it does not exist. Rest assured that if Jundo says something that doesn't sit right with me then he won't be spared the rod!

shel wrote:If being critical is an expression of hatred doesn't that mean Jundo hates what he's critical of...

No, it's just obvious that you have some personal problem with Jundo and what he says, even though it's completely and totally irrelevant to your own life. What are you trying to do here? Save his students from "faulty teaching"? How can you save his students if you can't even save yourself? Are you a zen practitioner yourself? Do you know what the zen precepts are? Specifically the one about abstaining from gossiping? How can you say what the proper Buddhist teaching is when you don't even follow it yourself?

One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

Fruitzilla wrote:So you are insinuating Zen masters(not the Japanese temple owner types, because we know your story on that one) don't care about the accomplishments/realization of the people who they give dharma transmission to?

I'm saying determining who is a genuine "Zen Master" is not so easily done. Word of mouth and hearsay is a poor gauge.

Fruitzilla wrote:So you are insinuating Zen masters(not the Japanese temple owner types, because we know your story on that one) don't care about the accomplishments/realization of the people who they give dharma transmission to?

I'm saying determining who is a genuine "Zen Master" is not so easily done. Word of mouth and hearsay is a poor gauge.

Ah right, but that kind of applies universally if you're looking for any kind of teacher.