You have described life - the struggles , the heart breaks ,everything, the realisations that we all should have about our life and the way we lead it.

It's something that we have to learn to cope with - no matter our own personal affiliation . As you said <<.................... That is what life is really like. It's not like sitting in one's room fantasizing about living in a monastery that's hundreds of miles away,..................>>

God Bless you in your struggles [ and He will because He loves everything and everyone that He has created ]

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"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

"Nothing about my religious life is ideal. I'm a member of a church that is about to engage in a profoundly self-destructive act. My priest irritates me and peppers his sermons with bogus statistics. People in the choir with me don't show up to rehearsals. We sing too many hymns I'm tired of singing and never liked all that much anyway. My two eldest fidget in church and the youngest can't be taken into church at all, which means that if there isn't a babysitter one of us can't go. I don't pray enough and I spend too much time on forums. I'm a know-it-all without enough education. I'm selfish, lazy, and full of dispair.

And you know something? That is what life is really like. It's not like sitting in one's room fantasizing about living in a monastery that's hundreds of miles away, when the actual monks, however holy they are, are also often peevish and petty and probably fart a lot because their diet includes a lot of beans."

Considering your comments, though, and the great truths therein about all of us aspiring Christians, are we not judging Joe and his fellow ROAC parishioners too harshly? "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." How about Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged." And Luke 6:37 "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." It seems to me that our judgements of Joe and ROAC will be applied equally to ourselves at the end time. I'm certain that I fart as often as Keble's monks, but probably louder, smellier, and more often (not that I'm bragging...Canadian beer, you know). And, I'm certain that in God's eyes, there are Lutherans, Anglicans, RCs, Copts, and YES ROACs who are far more worthy of his Grace than I am.

Should we not try to get along with each other as Orthodox bretheren (and sisterthen?) If the Antiochians can identify the "Orthodoxy" in a few thousand evangelical protestants, and accept them into the fold of the Church, I am astounded by the amount of bickering and fractious behaviour between Orthodox factions who hold dear the same canons, accept the same teachings of the same Fathers and Mothers of the Church, venerate the same saints, and have the same liturgical practices! Surely we should all identify our common ground, and work closer toward that "unity of the Church" that we pray for (or should I say we give lip-service to) each Sunday during the Liturgy. Perhaps we can identify the "Orthodoxy" in these, our closest bretheren!

In conclusion, I'd like to quote from "The Pilgrim Continues his Way" While preparing himself for confession, the Pilgrim, after consulting with his spiritual Father, is admonished thusly: "You did not acknowledge or write down the fact that you do not love God, that you despise your neighbour, that you do not believe in the words of God in Scripture, and that you are filled with pride and ambition. The entire abyss of evil and all our spiritual corruption reside in these four sins."

If you have this book, find this passage, and read the elder's explanation of these four points. We can all use a dose of humility.

You have my prayers, Joe Zollars, that God grant you his Grace, that His Will be made transparent to you, and that he has mercy on your soul, as I also beg these same things for myself and for all Christians and non-Christians alike.

an aspiring Christian...

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Hypo-Ortho

One thing you failed to bring up in your very kind post above was what should be the Orthodox Christian's approach to the grave sin of schism, a sin regarded by many Church Fathers as worse than heresy.

ROAC, like its HOCNA and ROCiE counterparts, is in schism from the ROCOR. ROAC is not recognized by any historic, canonical Orthodox Church. ROAC is totally out of communion with the Orthodox family. Should we encourage anyone to join a schismatic sect such as ROAC, even if it calls itself Orthodox? What say you?

Didn't think boilers had much to do with our forum...it was an old secular moniker of mine that a lot of secular types out there might recognize...

Also, still ploughing through "The Brothers Karamazov," and thought it too presumptuous to call myself "Zossima" or "Alyosha" - think of myself more like Dmitry or Ivan. Dmitri was taken, didn't want to call myself "Smerdyakov" (p.u.). I kinda like when characters in the book say "I can tell...you're a Karamzov" in order to identify being a Karamazov with being a slave to passions. I feel like a Karamazov some times...

About the other part of your post ("Should we encourage anyone to join a schismatic sect "), I guess not. I'm really torn here... I think my point is just simply that I wish we could all just get along better, be more tolerant of one another, and be as one, a sentiment that I'm sure others agree with.

When I converted, I didn't expect the Orthodox to be so fractious, and it kinda hurts...

I also think of an old RC song we would sing in the old Uniate church I was brought up in: "And they'll know we are Christians by our love..."

Considering your comments, though, and the great truths therein about all of us aspiring Christians, are we not judging Joe and his fellow ROAC parishioners too harshly?

I'm attempting to avoid judgement of Joe per se. It is the act in which he and ROAC are entering which I judge to be unwise, and by extension, some of his claims to vicarious wisdom.

I have really said all I can say about Joe's part in this, and if he were to engage in a more conventional relationship with a church-- even with ROAC-- I would have much less to say.

ROAC itself is another story. It claims an authority, and that claim invites judgement. I don't really care to go over the heresy/schism/jurisdiction end of the argument again because I don't know what more could be said. From a pastoral perspective, though, the fact that they are willing to enter into a pastoral relationship which they ought to know better about says to me that they should be avoided.

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I'm certain that I fart as often as Keble's monks, but probably louder, smellier, and more often (not that I'm bragging...Canadian beer, you know).

Well, I'm pretty sure that you don't fart as much as Keble-- one of the drugs I take messes up my digestion.

Your comments are edifying. Thank you for your patience with me. I really don't know much about the background of the ROACs, and i would like to know more. Perhaps I can learn more in this forum. Politics is so confusing - not my forte.

I will still keep ROACS and other Christians, as well as non-Christians, in my prayers.

I know this thread is dead, but I thought it was worth noting that I'd never heard of ROAC until earlier this year. I suspect it's only a pain in the neck for people with internet access and a bit too much time on their hands.

That being said, I should probably stop procrastinating and get some work done.

What I've "seen" of ROAC is only my interaction with those folks on the internet. They mostly seem to be angry young ex-SSPXers who have traded in one fundamentalist sect for another. They seem to adopt a poser Russophilia and get very upset about the ROCOR/MP situation, yet they are just spoiled little white boys with an ISP and no parish.

When did the ROAC thing came to appear? This Church's influence is insignificant in World Orthodoxy, a schism of a schism, directed by men who not always defended the principles they fight for nowadays, I don't find that praiseworthy.