Let me ask you this, Diana, if you walk across a carpet in winter and touch a doorknob, and get a shock, does it hurt? This is similar to the level of stimulation I'm using on Cy when we do the forced retrieve. I'm using it as a nag, a motivation, rather than pain.

yes'm however, I get to choose whether or not to do it in the first place and I get to choose whether or not to do it again, because frankly I do not like that shock at all and choose to not repeat it.

Okay...so, if Cy does what I ask next time who said I have to use it? Cy has a choice whether to do something the first time I give the command. Your children have choices to make, but it doesn't always mean they make the right one...

Katrina, I'm not getting pissy or argumentative, I'm simply offering an opinion....however, my children did not always make the right decisions, but I did not use "pain" as a motivator for them to alter that decision for the next time.

I don't think we can muddle training children or any human with training dogs - nor do I think that, while I appreciate your right and willingness to train your dogs in PP and bite work is your right - it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I have never questioned your right to train your dogs for this activity; however, that doesn't mean that I agree with all of anyone on this board training techniques, just as I'm sure there are those that do not agree with mine.

airwalk wrote:Katrina, I'm not getting pissy or argumentative, I'm simply offering an opinion....however, my children did not always make the right decisions, but I did not use "pain" as a motivator for them to alter that decision for the next time.

I don't think we can muddle training children or any human with training dogs - nor do I think that, while I appreciate your right and willingness to train your dogs in PP and bite work is your right - it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I have never questioned your right to train your dogs for this activity; however, that doesn't mean that I agree with all of anyone on this board training techniques, just as I'm sure there are those that do not agree with mine.

Diana, I was trying to take PP out of the equation...let's say I was just training competition obedience...like with Sacha? I respect what your opinions are - and that's why I'm talking about forced retrieves, etc... The only thing I mentioned about bitework is that I do have to use a higher level when my dog is doing bitework - the rest of my discussion has been about a retrieve - something that is done in high level obedience for both AKC and UKC.

I've put the e-collar on my neck at the same level that I use for Cy for the retrieve, and it's really not that bad.

There is a very common misconception when it comes to e-collars. Most people do not use them as some torture device. In fact, last year, (and I'm sure Erin can attest to this) when we had the dogs in my classes, many students volunteered to feel the e-collar stimulation, and they all agreed that they thought it would have been something bad, but it really wasn't. And they were all surprised.

I never wanted to use an e-collar on my dogs until I really started to understand them.

E-collars, like almost any training tool has it's time and place in the hands of someone that knows how to use it properly, I won't question that.

However, when I read this thread my reading is it is a discussion of using "pain" as a motivator and I simply do not see "pain" as a motivator that creates any reliability in response.

That's different than using an e-collar to create a correction or a discipline...but the original discussion was about using methods on dogs that create actual pain...and I'm sorry but to me that's simply a way to create a short cut rather than expending the time and energy other training will take.

I could probably shock the shat out of Magic and end is endless barking at other dogs...I'm quite sure there are techniques that would create an almost instantly silent dog....I won't use them. My way will take me a lot longer, but I will not have a dog that responds to a command based on fear of pain.

I guess you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.

airwalk wrote:E-collars, like almost any training tool has it's time and place in the hands of someone that knows how to use it properly, I won't question that.

However, when I read this thread my reading is it is a discussion of using "pain" as a motivator and I simply do not see "pain" as a motivator that creates any reliability in response.

That's different than using an e-collar to create a correction or a discipline...but the original discussion was about using methods on dogs that create actual pain...and I'm sorry but to me that's simply a way to create a short cut rather than expending the time and energy other training will take.

I could probably shock the shat out of Magic and end is endless barking at other dogs...I'm quite sure there are techniques that would create an almost instantly silent dog....I won't use them. My way will take me a lot longer, but I will not have a dog that responds to a command based on fear of pain.

I guess you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Diana, you're not getting it...I AM NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU!

I teach my dogs everything using positive reinforcement...usually a lot longer than most people would use it. All of Nisha's foundation was done using her meals...Same with Kaiden...all I could EVER use with Rocky was positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Nemo will be here on Tuesday night, our first training session together will be on Tuesday. I plan on doing all of his foundation with a clicker. To this day, my main training tool is the tug (or for Nisha I reward her with bites). I try to find the thing they value most to reward them for good behaviors.

I did not choose to have a forced retrieve trained on Cy using the ear pinch. I got him a year ago - already titled. I'm not using pain to motivate Cy to retrieve something now...he's already had that...I'm using a low level as a tap on the shoulder. Admittedly, when I just used the prong, he was probably getting more of a nag than he is now b/c it IS such a low level.

We're completely talking past each other here...I think that's the main problem...ask me how I taught my dogs what quiet means? I certainly didn't use corrections or pain...

I have no problem with using an e-collar if done correctly. I just always thought it was a tool to PROOF an already learned behavior, not TEACH a behavior.

E-collars were developed in the first place to teach field labs to retrieve...in fact, both tri-tronics and dogtra, in their training manuals discuss the primary use of e-collars should be negative reinforcement, but they can still be used for positive punishment...

Katrina..but at what point is that nag not necessary anymore. If you are using it only to proof an already learned behavior then there should be a time when that behavior is proofed and there. Granted a reminder may be necessary now and again - but that should be few and far between.

katiek0417 wrote: I'm sure you also know what can go wrong if used incorrectly.

I sure do! Which is why I don't recommend them to John Smith pet dog owner. However, in certain circumstances, using the methods you've outlined, they can be a GREAT tool for a pet dog owner.

For instance, we successfully worked with a man with cerebal palsy who was on crutches and had a relatively drivey female GSD import that when he was holding a leash, would often get tangled around his crutches and the man simply could not make a proper leash correction. We taught him to use an e-collar with her on one of the very low "nagging" settings, as his invisible "leash". It worked fantastically for owner AND dog.

Diana, the only reason I asked about your opposition to bitework was because I get very defensive when people think we use constant "pain" and "abuse" to train our dogs and that bitework "hurts" them. You will never see my dogs happier than when they are doing bitework. I realize this isn't what you were negating, but I just wanted you to know why I asked.

Also, I can see where you are coming from in your line of work, however, none of my dogs would ever be 1.) running at large; 2.) EVER bite someone that wasn't suited or wearing a sleeve. I can take that to the grave because my dogs have not been taught to differentiate and they only know that a sleeve or a suited decoy are just big tug toys. The only exception to this being, my husband's patrol dog.

I've read through this thread with quite a bit of interest because of my experiences when trying to teach Birdie to retrieve. It wasn't easy, but Chris Fraize told me a forced retrieve was an ugly thing and I took his word for it and figured out how to get Birdie to retrieve using another method. It took much much longer though.

I have a question.

How reliable is that retrieve with out the e-collar on? Do your dogs become "collar smart" and refuse to do certain tasks if they know there isn't an e-collar involved?

That is the biggest concern I have when I watch others rely on e-collars. What happens when the dog isn't wearing it?

Now in my situation, I needed a reliable retrieve, so using a forced retrieve to train Birdie would have been useless, because she would not have done it willingly.

Here is an example. I needed Birdie to pick up metal objects and she wasn't doing it. She kept refusing. I had talked about it with my trainer and a group of others who work with their dogs. A couple brought up a forced retrieve. Mike tells them that that isn't an option, then tells me that I already know how to do it, but I don't realize it, so I should go think about it and work it out.

And so there we are with a metal spoon on the floor and me giving Birdie the command "Get it" and pointing at the spoon. She mouthes it, picks it up and drops it.

I repeat the command, "Get it" and point to the spoon.

She bats it around the kitchen, paws it like she's trying to flip it up, bites at it like she's going to pick it up and then comes to me and sits in front of me looking for her treat. The spoon is on the other side of the kitchen now.

So I repeat the command. She looks at the spoon, looks at me, makes a half hearted attempt with her paw of levering the spoon so she can pick it up, then comes and sits in front of me again.

After watching her bat the spoon around like a hockey puck, I figure it's one of two things: A) She CAN'T get lever the spoon into a position so she can pick it up or B) She doesn't want to pick up the spoon because it's metal and tastes yucky.

I suspect B, but I'm check to make sure. So I throw a PLASTIC spoon on the floor and repeat the command. She picks it up immediately and puts it in my hand. I confirm that she CAN pick up the metal spoon, she is refusing to do it.

I get out another plastic spoon and throw it on the floor, she retrieves it, puts it my hand, gets her treat. Wash, lather, repeat. Then I mix it up and throw down the metal one. She goes to retrieve it, steps on the bowl to flip up the handle, gets it in her mouth and resumes the spoon hockey game. Then she comes and sits for her treat.

Okay. I can play this game. I up the ante. I get out cheddar cheese, show her the cheese in the bag, and let her sniff it, then I put it in my pocket without giving her any.

Then I point to the metal spoon and tell her to "Get it". She paws it around, looks at it, then picks it up and hands it to me. She gets her cheese.

I throw more silverware on the floor, open up the dish washer, pull out the bottom rack and point to each piece giving her the "Get it" command. Except this time, I point to the open dishwasher rack, point to where I want it and tell her "Drop it", then give her the cheese as soon as she drops the silverware.

Repeat until the silverware is in the dishwasher. (And Autumn isn't pissed because she has to wash all the silverware I threw on the floor.) Once she was reliably retrieving metal objects, I reduced the treats, then enlisted my friends help drop metal bits in random places to proof her.

I've been learning about PP training little by little, so I am curious if a similar approach would work with a PP dog. Or does the method depend on the dog being trained? When I borrow Mike's Katie to work, we don't use an e-collar at all. It took for-friggin' ever to train her to "out" on command by giving her rope tug as a reward, but she does it consistently now.

Please pardon the novel. I just have a lot of questions banging around in my head about training a dog using force that I'm trying to puzzle through.

Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men ~ General George S. Patton, Jr.

She taking all the stars down from her sky to hang them up someplace new, where there's better weather and the sky's a different blue. ~ Autumn Fields

Britney just to clarify..I would hope and would be amazed if every anyone on this boards dogs were running at large or biting outside of command or in the yard unsupervised wearing an e-collar, but frankly most of the folks I see every day tell me they are responsible dog owners, believe they are responsible dog owners and are trying to be responsible dog owners...but they really don't have a full understanding of what that actually means.

So while I can appreciate the level of control and obedience it takes for you folks that do PP and bite sport to be successful, I can't help it, it still makes me cringe.

Hoyden wrote:I've read through this thread with quite a bit of interest because of my experiences when trying to teach Birdie to retrieve. It wasn't easy, but Chris Fraize told me a forced retrieve was an ugly thing and I took his word for it and figured out how to get Birdie to retrieve using another method. It took much much longer though.

I have a question.

How reliable is that retrieve with out the e-collar on? Do your dogs become "collar smart" and refuse to do certain tasks if they know there isn't an e-collar involved?

Cy is trained in an e-collar (corrections usually come from the prong, unless I'm not near him)...but he's come darn close to passing a level 3 obedience twice (he failed due to MY handling errors, not his obedience) and he's naked (no collars at all) on the field. I'll try to get someone to video when I show him in 2 weeks...his obedience is far above what you'd see on most dogs out there and I'm proud of him for that, and I am happy that I have the chance to work with a dog that has been trained so well...I can't take any credit for 90% of his training. Sure, I've been doing a ton with him to fully prepare him for the 3's, but Todd did most of the hard work with him. But having a dog with that level of obedience simply gives me something to strive for with my other dogs... I don't think that's a bad thing....

Also, I have seen MANY trained field labs do field trials without an e-collar...every successful field lab is trained using a forced retrieve...yet you still have them earning MH, JH, etc...and these can be 200 yard blind retrieves...

Diana, I definitely understand your concern. I have been bitten very viciously by a malinois who didn't have any PP training, it was just a jerk. That's why it's so important for someone like me to make sure my dogs don't do that people. So, I strive hard to have the highest level of obedience on my dogs.

airwalk wrote:Katrina..but at what point is that nag not necessary anymore. If you are using it only to proof an already learned behavior then there should be a time when that behavior is proofed and there. Granted a reminder may be necessary now and again - but that should be few and far between.

Diana, when I say the command, and my dog does what is asked, then I don't use the it anymore...and I certainly don't have those tools on the trial field with me...

OK, I go away for a day and you guys go crazy! I can';t keep up! But here goes, Something to think about as far as trained bite dogs go and these are my experiences and my thoughts. Not trying to change anyone's minds, just some fuel for thought. Most dog bite case's (I forget the %) are caused by pet dogs with fear issue's. And if you look at the logic, a confident dog will NOT bite someone for no reason. Secondly, if you have a breed that is protective in temperment and has the potential to bite then wouldn't it make sense to teach the dog control, or in the case the dog were to bite to teach him to let go? How can you dothat if the dog isn't bitting at the time? Teach him to bite, teach the control, teach him t let go. It's the only sure fire way. It's away to safe gaurd against anything possibly happening Bite work does NOT change a dogs temperment. If a dogs a jerk and doesn't like people the he's that way with or with out bitework. If the dogs a big mush then it's a big mush with or with out bitework. That's a fact. Now I will go on the record and also say that I believe not everyone should own a pp dog, but then again I don't think everyone should own a pet dog either. Just as you have bad pp dog owners there are far more bad pet dog owners who do not safe gaurd John Q public against there fear agressive mix breed. Now on to the e-collar. The e-collar is only a tool in a dog trainers bag of tricks. some use it as correction only. And that's fine! But by doing that your only using the e-collar at 1/2 it's potential. I will also to go on to say that I think pain and e-collar training don't really belong together simply b/c it gives the impression that you can only use an ecollar to inflict pain. And honestly, how can anything learn what you want from it when all it can concentrate on is pain. I think the proper term for training a behavior with an e-collar would be discomfort. I think when most people, especially pet dog people think of pain they think of a screaming dog. When I use an e-collar most of the time you don't even know I used it as my dogs don't even flinch in discomfort. Also, a big mistake wit an ecollar people do is to just slap it on and use it. WRONG! The dog has to be taught what an ecollar is b e for correctio or motivation. Also, share similar character traits from breed to breed but every dog is also an individual and as such your training methods have to adjust. My two competition dogs are extremely different. My male (Jue) who needs some one on him at all times or he will bite someone. And then theres female (Asja) whom I taught everything to (foundation till about 1 1/2yrs) with a clicker. Now the forced retrieve. Yes, I did work TJ's forced retrieve with an ecollar, not as a motivator but as a correction. People get confused with the term "forced retrieve". The forced retrieve is used when the dog goes out, retrieves the object, but the spits it out before they get back to you. The dog knows the retrieve, just something strikes them much more interesting so for what ever reason they spit it out. since the dog knows the command to retrieve it is fair to correct them for not doing it. I would NEVER teach anything with an ecollar or any other measure of correction. It's just not fair to the dog! So no, a forced retrieve does not have to be brutal which is what I think of when I think of a dog screaming Dogs become collar wise when used improperly. What i mean is when a dog becomes collar wise it's because of one of two things. The most common reason is people tend t put the ecollar or pinch on right before their training session. As soon as they're done they take it right back off. This becomes a que to the dog that, "Ok, now I have to listen, Ok, now I dont". The second reason is when the owner comes home after training the collars come off and the dog hangs out. In training the dog was told to do something one, maybe 2 times befre a correction. Now at home the dogis told 3,4,5 times with out a correction. If training collars are put on before they come in to hang out and taken off before bed time the dogs never become collar wise. Dogs are creatures of habit. So when they have a good foundation they will perform with out the ecolars or any other training tool. i mean lets face it, if you don't have your clicker or treats does your dog still listen to you? It's the same thing, just a tool and how you utilize that tool is up to you. Besides, I would never rely on a training tool, I would much rather rely on my knowledge as a trainer and my abilities to use the tools at my disposal. And that's what makes a good trainer. Corrections and nagging basically get fewer andfewer over time. Since dogs are creatures of habit, and as long as your consistent in what you do ( and those goes for ANY aspect of training) eventually the desired behaviour over rides the not so desirable behaviour. You may always need a "tap on the shoulder" so to speak at some point as dogs are living creatures and are prone to revert back from time to time. No training method is fool proof. I don't care who you are or how good a trainer is with there method a dog will eventually do something we don't want or expect them to do. Lastly and this is for you Michelle! Choking a dog off the grip in my opinion only works for dogs that will let go without letting themselves pass out first. Mainly younger dogs and pups. No struggle and no damage done. When you have a tenacious dog such as a APBT or adult bite trained dog and you attempt to choke them off the grip you are ineveitably teaching them to fight the out. Then it becomes a battle against you and the dog. A side from dog fighting, think about what pitties were bred for hundreds of years for. Holding on! So it stands to reason that Riggs wants to hang in there and you choking him off just made him want it that much more. didn't we work on the out with one of your dogs when you and Patrick come to CCK9 to train? As said in the previous paragraphs, I would never use the ecollar to teach a behaviour and that goes for the out. I'm sure I missed some stuff But I am tired and it's past my bed time. My final thought though before bed is that things get lost in translation from person to person, 10 x's worst on the internet. everyone seems to have their own terms and sometimes that's where misunderstandings come in. Good night!

Greg

He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion."

Hoyden writes,"I've been learning about PP training little by little, so I am curious if a similar approach would work with a PP dog. Or does the method depend on the dog being trained? When I borrow Mike's Katie to work, we don't use an e-collar at all. It took for-friggin' ever to train her to "out" on command by giving her rope tug as a reward, but she does it consistently now."

Hoyden, not every dog can be trained the same way as all dogs are individuals and training programs and strategies need to be set up accordingly. I have two dogs who's training methods are totally opposite of each other. To answer your question, Yes, some dogs even in PP can be trained that way. Just like there are some dogs that respond very well to treats. But there are always those that don't also. The key is being able to read a dog, know it's temperment and then set up the proper program for that dog.

Greg

He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion."

i mean lets face it, if you don't have your clicker or treats does your dog still listen to you?

Greg maybe that's the crux of the situation..you see my dogs do 90% of the time. Now granted, I'll give you mine don't do PP or bite sport or any of those really advanced things...but Scooter works with me in public all the time. In varied unstructured, uncontrolled situations. Lots of people, lots of stimulus, lots of things happening and he always trusts me to keep him safe.

I began his training with treats - and he still once in a while gets a treat - but rarely in public and rarely just hanging at home...but sit means sit means sit means sit where ever we are, whatever is going on.

i mean lets face it, if you don't have your clicker or treats does your dog still listen to you?

Yes. I have never clicker trained & I faze out treats once a behavior is learned. Could they listen better? Of course, but that is MY fault for not putting more effort into their training. Munkee is trainable with a simple "good boy", he is happy as a clam to receive a pat on the head or to hear that he is a good dog. Justice is a little more hard headed but she still ( for the most part) does what she is told and I fazed out cookies years ago. Their recall is not that great because I have not worked on it as hard as I should. My dogs are never off leash outside their yard but usually, in the yard, if I want them to come in a simple " who wants a cookie? " or "come see what I got" will bring them running. AND I dont always HAVE a cookie when I call them to come get one. They know this.

My gate was opened by someone ( gawd knows WHO but it wont happen again) several months ago. I let the Ollie & Munkee out to pee. I came to my room to grab my phone & a cigarette & run back out when heard a rustleing outside my bedroom window. I look out & my worst nightmare has come true ( ok, not my WORST but is was pretty damn scary)...Munkee & Ollie were OUT. Munkee is extremely DA & we have a plethora of off leash dogs running around my street. I stuck my head out the front door, yelled " who wants a cookie" and they both came tearing in the house. LUCKILY there were NO dogs out that day. Would he have done it if there HAD been a loose dog out? Probably not, but I doubt even an e-collar would have been able to call him off if there had been. I could be wrong but I really do not think so. He is what he is. ON leash, around leashed dogs he is ok for the most part, unless one gets in his face but offleash is a whole 'nother story.

But anyway, yes my dogs WILL do what I ask without being cookied.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Diana and Debby, what you both did was go from a continuous rate of reinforcement to a variable rate of reinforcement. Variable rates of reinforcement are what make a behavior harder to extinguish. This is one of the major principles of learning.

So, you start out giving the reward every time you ask for something. Why? You want the dog to know: "yes, that's what I want." Once the dog is doing it every time you ask, you start to not give the treats as much. Because the dog expects to get the cookie, it does what you've asked. Now it learns that it may not know when it's going to get a cookie, but eventually it might get the cookie.

This is actually the same principle that used in slot machines. Think about a slot machine. It gives you enough payout enough times to make sure you continue to sit there and play.

Diana, you admit that you still use cookies once in a while. Debby, you say you fazed out cookies. Does this mean you NEVER give treats to your dogs? EVER? However, regardless, you do give a pat on the head. This is still reinforcement. You're just going to a more variable rate, which has strengthened the behavior.

As an example of how I do it with my dogs: lately I've been working on really keeping Cy with me when I'm turning. To do that, I've completely changed how I turn when I'm with my dog (changed the footwork, etc). But what I did at first was reward Cy at the beginning, during, and immediately after making the turn. So, he was learning that if he just stayed with me, the reward MIGHT come at any second. Once he was reliably making turns for me (and I started to take the reward out at one part of the turn at a time). Because he didn't know exactly when he'd get the reward, he was more likely to stay with me. Now, he is doing turns reliably, staying with me, and keeping his eyes on me (and he never changes his pace to keep up with me, doesn't bump me, etc). He still gets rewarded every once in a while for parts of the turn...but not every time...

Now...because he does understand what I'm asking of him, I do give a little correction (usually with the prong collar) if he fails to emit the behavior. This usually occurs if a decoy takes off the other way while we're turning. So, now, we're proofing the behavior. And right after he gets the correction, AS SOON AS he's doing what I told him to, he gets the reward. So, now I'm teaching him the difference between wrong and right by way of consequence. He's learning that when he does the right thing, good things happen.

I ALSO use "eh-eh" or "no" when I give the correction. So, now I'm letting him know that this word means something bad is happening. So, on the trial field, if he does something stupid, I can say "no" or "eh-eh" and he understands "Oh, I'm not doing the right thing, let me shape up." I have to rely on that on the trial field b/c he doesn't have collars or anything else.

Also, Debby, just to address something you said about using the e-collar if Munkee is going towards another dog. I NEVER EVER (nor does Greg) recommend the use of an e-collar on a DA dog WHILE it is going after another dog. EVER. PERIOD. What could be the result is the dog thinks the correction is coming from the other dog, which will make it more want to fight the other dog. I recommend strong and reliable obedience with a DA dog (I have one as a client right now) achieved through positive reinforcement (food), prong collar corrections, and desensitization (major desensitization from a long distance at first).

I think you guys are missimg my point and taking it out of context. All I was saying is that a properly trained dog be it with an ecollar, clicker, treats, whatever will do what you ask when you don't have those tools available. Why? Because dogs are creatures of habit and by teaching them regardless of method we are instilling a habit with in the dog. So if every thing is done properly the dog will listen regardless if you have your tools or not. I in no way was insinuating anything about anyone using treats or clickers as I use bith clickers, treats, prong collars and ecollars. In fact I am teaching my female to jump with out putting her feet on it. Since her foundation was done using a clicker, I started clicking when she doesn't touch the jump. Once she gets in the habit of not touching the jump then I will depend on the clicker less and less for that situation. And if you guys or anyone else took my comment as a shot or anything else other then it's intended purposes maybe you should take your time and carefully read the post again.

So when they have a good foundation they will perform with out the ecolars or any other training tool. i mean lets face it, if you don't have your clicker or treats does your dog still listen to you?

Yes, I just went back and re-read what I put. when read in this context as a whole you get a whole different picture, and not someone taking a shot which was not my intentions to begin with. Also, because my dogs bite I demand strict obedience. and I to have my dogs in social settings, out with guests loose in the house, out front while I do work in the garden or washing my truck, the dog beaches and parks in the area. And my dogs listen to me about 97% of the time. And the only reason I say 97% of the time is because they are dogs and although I don't just get blown off by my dogs it could happen. Also my dogs are very happy and up beat to do what I ask of them as anyone who has ever seen me train or compete can attest to. My dogs do what I ask because I make obedience fun and they enjoy it, not because I make them as evident by there heads and tails held high and there happy prances. A dog made to perform does't do that.

Greg

He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion."

I'm sorry, I haven't read either of your entire replies right now because I am seething ( NOT at you guys, something totally different...I think) but to answer this:

Debby, you say you fazed out cookies. Does this mean you NEVER give treats to your dogs? EVER? However, regardless, you do give a pat on the head. This is still reinforcement. You're just going to a more variable rate, which has strengthened the behavior.

Occasionally they will get a treat for doing what I asked, but it is pretty rare. I do give them treats just for the hell of it occasionally, but it is usually not because of a behavior, it is just because. ANd they dont get treats often at all. They are trained in the basics, Sit, stay, come...this sort of thing. They dont always get a pat on the head or a good dog for doing what I have told them to, but I still do it sometimes.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

cheekymunkee wrote:I'm sorry, I haven't read either of your entire replies right now because I am seething ( NOT at you guys, something totally different...I think) but to answer this:

Debby, you say you fazed out cookies. Does this mean you NEVER give treats to your dogs? EVER? However, regardless, you do give a pat on the head. This is still reinforcement. You're just going to a more variable rate, which has strengthened the behavior.

Occasionally they will get a treat for doing what I asked, but it is pretty rare. I do give them treats just for the hell of it occasionally, but it is usually not because of a behavior, it is just because. ANd they dont get treats often at all. They are trained in the basics, Sit, stay, come...this sort of thing. They dont always get a pat on the head or a good dog for doing what I have told them to, but I still do it sometimes.

That's what I mean, though...you don't have to do it very often...even if you do it once every week, you're still rewarding intermittently...that strengthens behavior (I guess my casino example wasn't very good b/c hopefully you're not sitting there weeks on end )....not sure that makes sense or not...doing it once a month is still enough...

And I hope you're not mad at us...we're really not trying to start anything...however, we also don't want you to think we're some barbarians that torture our dogs...we don't...we adore our dogs...we use much more positive reinforcement than we do punishment or negative reinforcement - and only use those when needed - which isn't all the time...

I always praise Mick for obeying, at least verbally. Is that a bad thing??? I do it because he is so extremely fearful and aggressive.. I want him to know when I'm pleased w/him for doing the right thing, each and every time. I thought I was re-enforcing the good behavior that way and not letting him doubt his "good" decisions.He does know when I'm not happy as well... we finally are at the point where I can (mostly) verbally correct him, and he will stop being an asshat.