Valiona and Theralion is significantly harder than those other bosses, but it doesn't even matter.
I'm judging you based on your comments, you get many things wrong. Admitting to being memoryz only reinforces that, you've posted so much stupid stuff it's hard to keep track of.
The only thing you're judging me by is trying to play the spec to it's fullest potential and my progress (which, yet again, still better than yours )

Soul Warding:The talent that gives us the ability to use shields freely without the restriction of a cooldown. In my opinion getting rid of Soul Warding wouldn't solve anything. In fact, removing it would just develop a very clunky playstyle for discipline if that was the so-called "fix". We need to be able to use our shields freely, but they need to change something so they aren't too powerful.

Shields are fine in their current state, they are no longer efficiently spammable.

Prayer of Healing: The throughput of prayer of healing in itself is rather weak. But Memoryz! What about divine aegis that always procs from it?! Well, divine aegis in itself is wasted anyways. When you use prayer of healing, you generally use it after damage occurs, not preemptively. Divine Aegis duration is also rather short so by the time next damage comes out, it's already expired.

Wrong, most encounters typically have aoe damage that is close enough together that divine aegis does actually work. Mitigation is mitigation regardless.

Borrowed Time: ANOTHER talent baked in with Power Word: Shield. Gives you a haste buff at the cost of losing mana

I don't even know what to say to this. QQ more please. Borrowed time is great, I love it. If I am busy working on shielding people who are about to die, and need to bomb a greater heal. thats a nice fast greater heal, most likely tied with inner focus. Which means a free greater heal. Not to mention you can increase your HPS with borrowed time if used wisley.

Borrowed time just gave you the TIME to shield both tanks, AND get off a PoH in time for the aoe. Without the borrowed time, you might have only had time to get off a PoH without shielding anyone.

Rapture: This is one of our bread and butter mechanics of regaining mana back. However, what blizzard didn't consider before they increased the mana cost of our shields is how it'd affect our ways of gaining mana back. By rapture being tied to Power Word: Shield and Power Word: Shield's mana cost increased, we in fact gain less mana back now from rapture, completely ruining the mana regen discipline had to sustain through raids.

Rapture is fine. 7% Regen is 7% regen.

Train of Thought: Lets be honest here, this talent is useless.

Actually it is not, there are plenty of times you should be casting greater heal. When the raid is not taking damage, but the tank is. Or when the damage is singular targeting. This is a regen talent, and if used properly can make up for the loss of mana from the PW:S buff.

Also on this talent, any tank healing disc priest would like to speak to you about the amazingness of this talent.

Renewed Hope: Another talent tied to Power Word: Shield. However, having to use Power Word: Shield currently feels like a hinder, even when only using it on tanks. You'll feel your mana depleting and you'll feel confused at what to do because you're simply trying to make use of Renewed Hope as intended.

Wrong, if you use PW:S combined with all of your other abilities, you will have 0 mana problems. I think I worry my mana more playing as HOLY as I do as disc and I am a main spec holy priest. PW:S + Penance depending on gear/raid setting. Close to a 30% crit chance on that penance if used on a tank, which it should be. Meaning more DA procs, and just a lot of burst healing on the tank for a low mana cost.

Grace: Ah grace, another talent that really needs looked at. It's cool that Blizzard made grace affect more than one target, however, the mechanic of grace in itself is clunky and frustrating. I get it, they don't want passive +healing talents, but it's talents like these that are hindering buffs to give us more throughput. Honestly Grace in my opinion is terrible. Its good for the purpose it served to begin with: A tank healing mechanic, but it does not serve the purpose of increasing our raid healing throughput. It's overall in my opinion, hindering any buffs coming our way to increase our raid healing potential.

All in all, with the inability to make use of Power Word: Shield due to its mana cost, it really makes you question the intention of making all these talents tied around Power Word: Shield. If Power Word: Shield hinders your mana, why is there Renewed Hope, Strength of Soul, Borrowed Time, and Rapture?

I urge Blizzard to take a look at the discipline tree and their actions to see for themselves why what they did to solve the "Power Word: Shield" spam was awful. You've basically broken the whole purpose of the discipline tree and people as we speak are already going back to Holy.

Personal Suggestions:

Nerf Absorption + Mastery Rebalance: Why didn't you just nerf the absorption a tad. Say in my gear, the shield absorbs 24-25k in mastery heavy gear. Absorbs 20k in PvP gear. To balance this, I'm sure it'd take a slight reduction in Power Word: Shield and Mastery balance all together.

Buff Prayer of Healing somehow to compensate this nerf: Since Power Word: Shield is no longer usable to pre-shield raid damage, were pretty much left with only one other spell to heal raid damage, Prayer of Healing. However, Prayer of Healing in itself currently isn't enough.

Grace Affecting Shield Absorption: Have grace stacks affect the shield to absorb more. This would make it so they could tone down Power Word: Shield, but also not harm PvP, where you should keep up grace stacks on your partner you're going to use Power Word: Shield on. This also ensures tanks have a more decently size shield as opposed to the raids.

More Problems With Shield Cost increase:

Mastery: Due to shields no longer being used as much, this lowers our need to use mastery on our gear. Mastery really only benefits two things. Divine Aegis( Which is usually wasted anyways) and Power Word: Shield. Because Power Word: Shield is just mana inefficient, we all just result in using prayer of healing more and favoring haste over mastery in this case. If you want us to use mastery, give us an incentive to use it.

Knee-jerk changes done by Blizzard:Rapture now returns 2/5/7% of maximum mana when Power Word: Shield is consumed, up from 2/4/6%.

This in actuality does nothing, it helps our mana abit, but it's hardly a noticeable difference.

As far as grace goes, it's really up on more people in the raid then you might think. Depending on the encounter. Any disc priest should still be helping with the tanks when the aoe damage is low.

I partially agree that grace needs the ability to proc off something else however. Atonment for one, and shields for another.

However, discs throughput is not really... low. In terms of *RAW HEALTH INCREASE* yes it's low.

BUT THATS NOT THE WAY THE CLASS WORKS. People need to understand this, as a healer who has been playing since molten core was released. Disc is unique as a healer, as unique as they get.

They bring mitigation to raids, as well as a good chunk of healing. Disc was not meant to have raw throughput numbers, they were meant to have numbers through throughput, and mitigation.

Disc currently is in a good balanced spot. If you play your class correctly you will still get plenty of HPS/Healing done.

Disc is more then just spamming PoH/penance.

You should be smiting as much as possible when aoe damage is low, and to keep up your archangel buff.

You should be using your shields WISLEY, not spamming them on just anyone. Keeping weakened soul on the tanks 100% of the fights or as much as the fight will allow you.

You should be using penance for an emergency heal, and a main tank heal on cooldown.

You should be using greater heal when someone is low and not taking damage, and flash heal when someone is low and taking continuous damage.

You should be using binding heal if you are missing health.

You should be using Prayer of Mending on cooldown on the tank/raid. This also counts as an emergency heal.

I have been playing holy main spec for 3+ years now. I originally was disc back in ulduar and am playing disc as offspec currently in heroic content.

Holy has the throughput you want for high amounts of burst damage. Disc has the mitigation you want for high amounts of burst damage.

If you want big fat throughput numbers, trust me. Play holy. It's not as easy as you think.

If you want to play a unique class that requires a lot of skill/knowledge. Play Disc

I am tired of these people saying "OMG DISC HAS BAD RAW HEALING NUMBERS OMG QQ"

yes you are correct, they do have bad raw healing numbers, but their HPS is still insane due to how the class works. Their HPS comes from mitigation, not raw healing. Please learn this people.

Valiona and Theralion is significantly harder than those other bosses, but it doesn't even matter.
I'm judging you based on your comments, you get many things wrong. Admitting to being memoryz only reinforces that, you've posted so much stupid stuff it's hard to keep track of.
The only thing you're judging me by is trying to play the spec to it's fullest potential and my progress (which, yet again, still better than yours )

It's hard for alot of reasons. Our main issue on the fight is portals, which I really have no responsibility of.
Also, you've no made anything constructive based off my comments. Simply about "Train of Thought and some mechanic of Renewed Hope I wasn't aware of. The point of my thread is a large portion of our talents are based around power word: shield (Even our mana regen) and their solution was to simply increase the mana cost? Do you honestly feel that was the best solution?

---------- Post added 2011-02-19 at 06:19 PM ----------

Originally Posted by ZippyDoodle

Shields are fine in their current state, they are no longer efficiently spammable.

Wrong, most encounters typically have aoe damage that is close enough together that divine aegis does actually work. Mitigation is mitigation regardless.

I don't even know what to say to this. QQ more please. Borrowed time is great, I love it. If I am busy working on shielding people who are about to die, and need to bomb a greater heal. thats a nice fast greater heal, most likely tied with inner focus. Which means a free greater heal. Not to mention you can increase your HPS with borrowed time if used wisley.

Borrowed time just gave you the TIME to shield both tanks, AND get off a PoH in time for the aoe. Without the borrowed time, you might have only had time to get off a PoH without shielding anyone.

Rapture is fine. 7% Regen is 7% regen.

Actually it is not, there are plenty of times you should be casting greater heal. When the raid is not taking damage, but the tank is. Or when the damage is singular targeting. This is a regen talent, and if used properly can make up for the loss of mana from the PW:S buff.

Also on this talent, any tank healing disc priest would like to speak to you about the amazingness of this talent.

Wrong, if you use PW:S combined with all of your other abilities, you will have 0 mana problems. I think I worry my mana more playing as HOLY as I do as disc and I am a main spec holy priest. PW:S + Penance depending on gear/raid setting. Close to a 30% crit chance on that penance if used on a tank, which it should be. Meaning more DA procs, and just a lot of burst healing on the tank for a low mana cost.

As far as grace goes, it's really up on more people in the raid then you might think. Depending on the encounter. Any disc priest should still be helping with the tanks when the aoe damage is low.

I partially agree that grace needs the ability to proc off something else however. Atonment for one, and shields for another.

However, discs throughput is not really... low. In terms of *RAW HEALTH INCREASE* yes it's low.

BUT THATS NOT THE WAY THE CLASS WORKS. People need to understand this, as a healer who has been playing since molten core was released. Disc is unique as a healer, as unique as they get.

They bring mitigation to raids, as well as a good chunk of healing. Disc was not meant to have raw throughput numbers, they were meant to have numbers through throughput, and mitigation.

Disc currently is in a good balanced spot. If you play your class correctly you will still get plenty of HPS/Healing done.

Disc is more then just spamming PoH/penance.

You should be smiting as much as possible when aoe damage is low, and to keep up your archangel buff.

You should be using your shields WISLEY, not spamming them on just anyone. Keeping weakened soul on the tanks 100% of the fights or as much as the fight will allow you.

You should be using penance for an emergency heal, and a main tank heal on cooldown.

You should be using greater heal when someone is low and not taking damage, and flash heal when someone is low and taking continuous damage.

You should be using binding heal if you are missing health.

You should be using Prayer of Mending on cooldown on the tank/raid. This also counts as an emergency heal.

I have been playing holy main spec for 3+ years now. I originally was disc back in ulduar and am playing disc as offspec currently in heroic content.

Holy has the throughput you want for high amounts of burst damage. Disc has the mitigation you want for high amounts of burst damage.

If you want big fat throughput numbers, trust me. Play holy. It's not as easy as you think.

If you want to play a unique class that requires a lot of skill/knowledge. Play Disc

I am tired of these people saying "OMG DISC HAS BAD RAW HEALING NUMBERS OMG QQ"

yes you are correct, they do have bad raw healing numbers, but their HPS is still insane due to how the class works. Their HPS comes from mitigation, not raw healing. Please learn this people.

Do you even look at how much Divine Aegis actually represents in logs? It's not as large as you think. So where's the mitigation again?

I'm just gonna throw this out there, how about you use inner will for the 15% mana reduction on bubbles to make it vaguely spamable and only really spam it when you have waves of predictable damage. Whilst you use your other tools. Disc is perfectly fine the mana nerf was kind of expected to be honest I was out hpsing alot better geared healers with no issues of mana. This change is not spec breaking in the least. Less QQ more Pew Pew

lol wow umm...where do I begin. I'm not going to give you the full speech but here we go. For starters you stated that blizzard was to attempt to make healers be raid and tank healers is off. They said that healers had specfic roles beforehand(I.E. holy paladins as tank healers in wrath). They wanted to give healers tools to perform other tasks...they didn't say they'd be just as good as the other. Every healer is meant to have a strength and weakness. Second, and main point actually, is blizzard intended for PW:S to be the main spell for disc but not so much that you can blanket the raid with it, like what druids did with rejuv. You just said you can't do that now, so hey they accomplished what they are trying to do. Yeah sure it costs more mana, congrats you have to think when to use it now! And third, you expect niches for healers to be the only god damn spell they use in the game. Seriously are you going to completely stop using PW:S?

Whining is dumb.

also:

Do you even look at how much Divine Aegis actually represents in logs? It's not as large as you think. So where's the mitigation again?

You really just quoted a page long response...then just attack one thing? Fantastic the guy may have gotten one thing wrong...oh look twenty other points he made!

Why is it Memoryz doesn't seem happy unless he's predicting the imminent DOOM of disc priest and how gimped we are, even though almost every other disc priest doesn't share his opinion? Maybe the fault doesn't like with the spec...

Why is it Memoryz doesn't seem happy unless he's predicting the imminent DOOM of disc priest and how gimped we are, even though almost every other disc priest doesn't share his opinion? Maybe the fault doesn't like with the spec...

A 2% base mana reduction on Arcane Blast suddenly made Arcane spec for Mages competitive and doing top DPS on Tank and Spank encounters (Chimaeron, Argaloth).

1% can actually be quite significant, I wouldn't be so quick to discount it.

They are more competitive on spank and tanks, but still not top DPS. Averaging the top 20 DPS on Argaloth for each spec, fire is averaging 26081.2 eDPS, while Arcane is averaging 23900.55 eDPS. So it's still 8%+ behind fire on even your spank and tanks. Now factor in mobility in the majority of fights, cleaves, length (how many fights are really sub 3 minutes aside from Argaloth?) The top Arcane Mage - a Power Infusion and 2 Innervates in a 2:34 fight. #2 Arcane Mage - 4 TotT on 2:30 fight (nearly 20% uptime). Top Fire Mage? No external buffs and was only slightly behind the above 2.

Your point also is a bit misconstrued since the 2% reduction is multiplicative for arcane mages.

It's hard for alot of reasons. Our main issue on the fight is portals, which I really have no responsibility of.
Also, you've no made anything constructive based off my comments. Simply about "Train of Thought and some mechanic of Renewed Hope I wasn't aware of. The point of my thread is a large portion of our talents are based around power word: shield (Even our mana regen) and their solution was to simply increase the mana cost? Do you honestly feel that was the best solution?

---------- Post added 2011-02-19 at 06:19 PM ----------

Do you even look at how much Divine Aegis actually represents in logs? It's not as large as you think. So where's the mitigation again?

Magmaw/Omnitron/Maloriak/Chimearon/Atremedes/Nefarien/Chogall/Council/almost every single heroic encounter with a pulsing AOE or multiple hit target abilties..

Would like to speak withyou about divine aegis.

Divine aegis true does not count for 50% of our healing. It shouldn't, because it's a TALENT.

You forget that it procs off penance crits, PoH crits, PoM crits, Renew crits [lol] oh.. and every single ability we use in raids. even Attonement.

DA Counts for plenty of our healing, imagine if you took away DA completley, our numbers would drop by a HUGE amount.

wether it's 3k mitigated, 6k or 12k. It's a certain amount that the OTHER HEALERS DID NOT HAVE TO HEAL. There are plenty of times when 3k was the death or survival of people in raids, tanks especially.

When I first started raiding in this Xpac, in crappy blue heroic gear. My guild got to chogall, we originally did 2 holy priests and a holy paladin. Which was fine, we killed him ect all was great.

Then the next week our mage brought her disc priest. It made the fight laughable in phase 3 with the amount she was able to absorb simply from divine aegis.

You think it doesn't count for much of your healing, but it counts for plenty of the other healers healing. Anyone is thankful in current raid content when ANY damage gets mitigated AT ALL.

I could sit here and continue listing how useful DA is, but you simply just won't comprehend it because you think disc should be played like holy. and you are WRONG.

Yeah guy, you killed one more boss than me. You're just so much better than me after that. Specially when you killed it two days ago?

Lol @ using progress as an "I'm better than u I'm right you're wrong olo" argument.

Anyways, let's see here...

Originally Posted by Revitalize

It has come to my attention that Discipline is no longer a viable PvE role for raids.

Yep, that's why I healed 12/12 with it. Totally not viable right?

Originally Posted by Revitalize

Prayer of Healing: The throughput of prayer of healing in itself is rather weak. But Memoryz! What about divine aegis that always procs from it?! Well, divine aegis in itself is wasted anyways. When you use prayer of healing, you generally use it after damage occurs, not preemptively. Divine Aegis duration is also rather short so by the time next damage comes out, it's already expired.

My view on the whole auto-DA from PoH thing is for constant AoE damage like Al'Akir P2 or Magmaw's raidwide AoE, or Chimaeron feud, or Omnotron's raidwide fire aoE, or the ice platform's Full Strength for Conclave. Free healing is nice.

Originally Posted by Revitalize

Rapture: This is one of our bread and butter mechanics of regaining mana back. However, what blizzard didn't consider before they increased the mana cost of our shields is how it'd affect our ways of gaining mana back. By rapture being tied to Power Word: Shield and Power Word: Shield's mana cost increased, we in fact gain less mana back now from rapture, completely ruining the mana regen discipline had to sustain through raids.

Lolno. I healed Nef after the increase to its mana cost, and I had 0 mana issues. "Completely ruined" ? I think not. It's now increased to 7% anyways, which mostly makes up for the mana cost increase.

Originally Posted by Revitalize

Train of Thought: Lets be honest here, this talent is useless.

Looks like someone doesn't know how to play disc properly. GH is awesome as Disc when combined with Inner Focus, and reducing Inner Focus' CD causes GH to use less mana over the span of a fight.

Originally Posted by Revitalize

Renewed Hope: Another talent tied to Power Word: Shield. However, having to use Power Word: Shield currently feels like a hinder, even when only using it on tanks. You'll feel your mana depleting and you'll feel confused at what to do because you're simply trying to make use of Renewed Hope as intended.

Weakened Soul OR Grace for Renewed Hope. Don't have to use shields.

Originally Posted by Revitalize

Strength of Soul:why would you want to do that now? To run yourself out of mana quicker?

No, to have extra throughput when tank damage is heavy.

Originally Posted by Revitalize

Borrowed Time: ANOTHER talent baked in with Power Word: Shield. Gives you a haste buff at the cost of losing mana.

So casting a shield is "losing mana" now? Someone really hates Disc.

Originally Posted by Revitalize

Grace: Ah grace, another talent that really needs looked at. It's cool that Blizzard made grace affect more than one target, however, the mechanic of grace in itself is clunky and frustrating. I get it, they don't want passive +healing talents, but it's talents like these that are hindering buffs to give us more throughput. Honestly Grace in my opinion is terrible. Its good for the purpose it served to begin with: A tank healing mechanic, but it does not serve the purpose of increasing our raid healing throughput. It's overall in my opinion, hindering any buffs coming our way to increase our raid healing potential.

Grace is fine as it is, right now. Great tank healing talent. You wanna raid heal? Go holy. Like, seriously, why are you trying to raid heal as Disc when Holy is so much better at it, then coming to forums and QQing "omg disc can't raid heal disc sux!"? It boggles my mind.

Originally Posted by Revitalize

All in all, with the inability to make use of Power Word: Shield due to its mana cost, it really makes you question the intention of making all these talents tied around Power Word: Shield. If Power Word: Shield hinders your mana, why is there Renewed Hope, Strength of Soul, Borrowed Time, and Rapture?

Because increasing its mana cost makes it unusable, right? It does not "hinder your mana". The point of increasing its mana cost was NOT to push you away from using it, but to push you away from spamming it and using it above all other spells.

Originally Posted by Revitalize

I urge Blizzard to take a look at the discipline tree and their actions to see for themselves why what they did to solve the "Power Word: Shield" spam was awful. You've basically broken the whole purpose of the discipline tree and people as we speak are already going back to Holy.

See above point. Increasing the mana cost of 1 spell does not break an entire spec. Sorry, but, l2p.

Originally Posted by Precursor

"Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm

Lol @ using progress as an "I'm better than u I'm right you're wrong olo" argument.

Anyways, let's see here...

Yep, that's why I healed 12/12 with it. Totally not viable right?

My view on the whole auto-DA from PoH thing is for constant AoE damage like Al'Akir P2 or Magmaw's raidwide AoE, or Chimaeron feud, or Omnotron's raidwide fire aoE, or the ice platform's Full Strength for Conclave. Free healing is nice.

Lolno. I healed Nef after the increase to its mana cost, and I had 0 mana issues. "Completely ruined" ? I think not. It's now increased to 7% anyways, which mostly makes up for the mana cost increase.

Looks like someone doesn't know how to play disc properly. GH is awesome as Disc when combined with Inner Focus, and reducing Inner Focus' CD causes GH to use less mana over the span of a fight.

Weakened Soul OR Grace for Renewed Hope. Don't have to use shields.

No, to have extra throughput when tank damage is heavy.

So casting a shield is "losing mana" now? Someone really hates Disc.

Grace is fine as it is, right now. Great tank healing talent. You wanna raid heal? Go holy. Like, seriously, why are you trying to raid heal as Disc when Holy is so much better at it, then coming to forums and QQing "omg disc can't raid heal disc sux!"? It boggles my mind.

Because increasing its mana cost makes it unusable, right? It does not "hinder your mana". The point of increasing its mana cost was NOT to push you away from using it, but to push you away from spamming it and using it above all other spells.

See above point. Increasing the mana cost of 1 spell does not break an entire spec. Sorry, but, l2p.

This exactly shows an example of why I stopped posting in these forums. No one you provide constructive feedback, but simply reply with egotistical l2p comments. Thanks for proving this to me. I'll go have better in depth conversations on the official WoW forums.

This exactly shows an example of why I stopped posting in these forums. No one you provide constructive feedback, but simply reply with egotistical l2p comments. Thanks for proving this to me. I'll go have better in depth conversations on the official WoW forums.

Correcting your misinformed facts is "egotistical l2p" ? Alright then. Off to official forms with you. If I was really being egotistical "l2p", I would have just said flat out "its not nerfed l2p noob".

Originally Posted by Precursor

"Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm

Correcting your misinformed facts is "egotistical l2p" ? Alright then. Off to official forms with you. If I was really being egotistical "l2p", I would have just said flat out "its not nerfed l2p noob".

Yes, your comments of 10 man normal modes and it's ease of being able to play discipline are a clear in depth discussion of class mechanics.

IMO class balance is about one thing, and one thing only: Provide a compelling reason to play/include any spec in a group/raid.

That's really all it is. If this change doesn't impact your spec's "desireability", then the point is moot. I can go to any healer forum after any change and find people who think it is unfair.....and other people who don't have issues with it. I saw a comment that most 25man raids are running around with 2 Holy Paladin for tank healing......perhaps that is the problem. Maybe making your build better at tank healing evens the playing field a bit making your build a more desireable alternative capable of filling that role. Saying that Holy Paladin are good raid healers when one of our heals is a cone hitting 5 people and the other has diminishing returns based on number of people hit and distance from the Paladin is not much of a stand you want to really take. We were given a few tools to make us a bit more desireable to heal raids other than single target heals, but no one is going to bring a HPal due solely to their ability to mass heal a raid.

The goal of the healing changes wasn't to make everyone the same.......or to provide equivilence in healing roles. The goal was to make sure that certain spec's weren't considered guaranteed spots and pidgeon holed into certain roles to the exclusion of other healers. I think that goal has been mostly met with just a few more tweaks here and there to go.