Yeah that's what the general consensus is, but every time I watch it, they make no allusions to it. If it wasn't the boards, or the video games, I would have never known. And also, am I the only one that wanted to see SS2 Gotenks?

Yeah that's what the general consensus is, but every time I watch it, they make no allusions to it. If it wasn't the boards, or the video games, I would have never known. And also, am I the only one that wanted to see SS2 Gotenks?

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When Goku goes SSJ2 against the Yakon Vegeta makes a comment thats basically acknowledgement of Goku also reaching the other form. I think if Vegeta hadn't achieved that then we would have gotten the usual ranting inner-monologue about Goku always outclassing him. But as with all dialog its open to interpretation and can differ based on the translation.

Your correct with the statement that Goku's little "flash" in and out of SSJ2 to beat Yakon was noticed by Vegeta. What people forget is that it is LATER implied by Vegeta that seeing Goku go SSJ2 was his motivation to allow himself to come under control of Babadi. As Vegeta had "seen how much Babadi's magic made the other fighters under his control more powerful". It is implied that Vegeta did NOT reach SSJ2 in the 7 years of Goku's death, and that he decided after seeing goku go SSJ2 he needed Babadi's magic to compete with Goku, to "catch up". Though he didnt realize Goku was actually a SSJ3 at this point, and the fight between Goku and Vegeta was basically a farce that Goku allowed to happen, but thats a whole different issue. Anyways I believe that Vegeta didnt actually reach SSJ2 until he was under control of Babadi.

More likely Vegeta realised that while he may have reached SSJ2, he hadn't mastered that form and that Goku had. Remember there is a significant difference in the power of a Super Saiyan form once it has been mastered, as we saw from the difference between SSJ1 and FPSSJ. Goku of course had mastered SSJ2 en route to becoming an SSJ3, unbeknownst to Vegeta.

What people forget is that it is LATER implied by Vegeta that seeing Goku go SSJ2 was his motivation to allow himself to come under control of Babadi. As Vegeta had "seen how much Babadi's magic made the other fighters under his control more powerful".

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This part is correct.

Raa0 said:

It is implied that Vegeta did NOT reach SSJ2 in the 7 years of Goku's death, and that he decided after seeing goku go SSJ2 he needed Babadi's magic to compete with Goku, to "catch up".

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And this part isn't. I dont see how you came to that conclusion based on what you just said above. So just because Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the time that somehow means that Vegeta could not have achieved SSJ2? Have you forgotten the significant power difference between SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goku when they fought? What about FPSSJ Goku and FPSSJ Gohan? Just because you're at the same level of transformation doesn't mean your power levels will automatically be equal. Vegeta had achieved SSJ2 - his initial reaction (rather, lack of reaction) to Goku turning SSJ2 against Yakon is a dead giveaway - but by that time Goku was a Super Saiyan 3 and had already perfected SSJ2 as a result. It's like comparing a SSJ to a FPSSJ; sure they're both super saiyans, but there's a big difference between their respective powerlevels.

What people forget is that it is LATER implied by Vegeta that seeing Goku go SSJ2 was his motivation to allow himself to come under control of Babadi. As Vegeta had "seen how much Babadi's magic made the other fighters under his control more powerful".

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This part is correct.

Raa0 said:

It is implied that Vegeta did NOT reach SSJ2 in the 7 years of Goku's death, and that he decided after seeing goku go SSJ2 he needed Babadi's magic to compete with Goku, to "catch up".

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And this part isn't. I dont see how you came to that conclusion based on what you just said above. So just because Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the time that somehow means that Vegeta could not have achieved SSJ2? Have you forgotten the significant power difference between SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goku when they fought? What about FPSSJ Goku and FPSSJ Gohan? Just because you're at the same level of transformation doesn't mean your power levels will automatically be equal. Vegeta had achieved SSJ2 - his initial reaction (rather, lack of reaction) to Goku turning SSJ2 against Yakon is a dead giveaway - but by that time Goku was a Super Saiyan 3 and had already perfected SSJ2 as a result. It's like comparing a SSJ to a FPSSJ; sure they're both super saiyans, but there's a big difference between their respective powerlevels.

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I see how this is POSSIBLE but the pure lack of any kind of facts on your part means its up too you to prove that Vegeta could go SSJ2 at this point. But I'll just go ahead and do it for you: There isnt any. Vegeta's speeches alone point more towards the fact that he did not achieve SSJ2 as he states later on in their fight that after seeing Goku go SSJ2 against Yakon he realised there was a MASSIVE gap that he could never hope to ever catch up to Goku without Babadi's help. If he was a SSJ2, and knew Goku was a SSJ2, thats not a MASSIVE gap, its a gap (possibly), but we're talking about Vegeta doing something thats so uncharacteristic of him: Letting someone else help him get stronger. The reasons in Vegeta's mind would have to be of equally extreme nature to allow it. Thus its much more likely that Vegeta was not a SSJ2 before Babadi's interference. Theres no reason to believe otherwise.

Its been too long since I've seen one of these debates. Vegeta did indeed turn SSJ2 before his transformation into Majin Vegeta. The anime screws this up but the facts are there.
Number 1 Goku turns SSJ2 against Yakon and Vegeta states that Goku has also surpass the SSJ wall. Everytime Vegeta is surpass he usually doesn't take it too well. He seems fine here.
Number 2 when Gohan is fighting Dabura, Vegeta cries out saying this is ridiculous that if Goku or himself were fighting this fight would of been over. He calls out saying Gohan got soft, and Goku says Gohan not doing that bad. And Gohan is fighting as a SSJ2, so this implies Vegeta is also a SSJ2.
Number 3 When Goku powers up Against Vegeta, Vegeta states that at least he is stronger than his son when Gohan fought Cell.
Number 4 Vegeta during his explanation in the manga he says he needed Badidi to close the small gap that set them apart. Emphasize the word small I don't think he was talking about jumping from SSJ to SSJ2 as a small gap.

Not to mention that Goku is really a SSJ3 so he mastered SSJ2 in a sense.I doubt a newly transformed SSJ2 can withstand a SSJ2 that already unlocked SSJ3, and Goku does state that him and Majin Vegeta were equal in SSJ2 during their fight.

He was SSJ2 when he was Majin Vegeta. The first time we saw him as a SSJ2 under normal conditions was when he fought Kid Buu.

Its implied that in the 7 year gap he not only mastered the FPSSJ (been a while since I typed that one lol) but also attained SSJ2.

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Actually he was ssj2 when he and goku were fighting mistic gohan buu, though its hardly noticeable at all do to the fact that there is almost never any blue electricity flying around him like there is supposed to be in the ssj2 state, which always leaves me super confused on whether or not he is just a normal super saiyan or a super saiyan 2. When he is fighting kid buu it would be impossible to know whether or not he's a ssj2 unless you look it up because there is no signification that he ever was one, unless you see the crackling blue energy that surrounds him (which happens once in the range of this fight to several movie/episodes later) while he is desperately barraging kid buu with ki blasts to buy time for goku to charge his energy.I'm also confused on whether he was a super saiyan or a super saiyan 2 when he fought junampa.

Its been too long since I've seen one of these debates. Vegeta did indeed turn SSJ2 before his transformation into Majin Vegeta. The anime screws this up but the facts are there.
Number 1 Goku turns SSJ2 against Yakon and Vegeta states that Goku has also surpass the SSJ wall. Everytime Vegeta is surpass he usually doesn't take it too well. He seems fine here.Number 2 when Gohan is fighting Dabura, Vegeta cries out saying this is ridiculous that if Goku or himself were fighting this fight would of been over. He calls out saying Gohan got soft, and Goku says Gohan not doing that bad. And Gohan is fighting aSSJ2, so this implies Vegeta is also a SSJ2.
Number 3 When Goku powers up Against Vegeta, Vegeta states that at least he is stronger than his son when Gohan fought Cell.
Number 4 Vegeta during his explanation in the manga he says he needed Badidi to close the small gap that set them apart. Emphasize the word small I don't think he was talking about jumping from SSJ to SSJ2 as a small gap.

Not to mention that Goku is really a SSJ3 so he mastered SSJ2 in a sense.I doubt a newly transformed SSJ2 can withstand a SSJ2 that already unlocked SSJ3, and Goku does state that him and Majin Vegeta were equal in SSJ2 during their fight.

So Vegeta did indeed turn SSJ2 prior to Majin.

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Not that I disagree Jim but you know you're probably gonna get some one in here saying Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 in the fight. Ive had that debate too many times to count.

In the manga, he makes a statement about Goku "achieving the next level of super saiyan as well", Implying he does indeed turn Ssj2 during the 7 year gap.

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Well, since its already been bumped, ill take a stab.

I'm looking right at it (it's a scan, not the Viz, for what that's worth). Everyone here is saying oh he was fine, and he casually remarks that Goku can do it too. He actually looks kind of mad in the first panel, and is irritated when remarking about Goku having the form. I've always taken that to mean Goku "as well" as Gohan. Goku died as an FPSSJ, so Vegeta probably didn't assume he had shot up a couple of forms. Remember, he had to ask Piccolo for specifics on how bodies in the afterlife work, AFTER his fight with Goku. So he was hardly an expert there.

Also, people forget- when the fight with Cell was over, Vegeta said he would never fight again. We know with his son getting older that he began training again (and training his kid to stay ahead of Goten). I even think he went ahead and locked down FPSSJ. But I don't see him spending the entire time skip aggresively training. Or stealth-transforming with NO emotional trigger. Keep in mind absolutely everyone is surprised when Vegeta transforms into SSJ2 before fighting Goku. The SSj transformations by the kids are already a stretch, but I think Piccolo at least would have sensed him going SSJ2. Couldn't the Namekians sense Cell's power up on New Namek? And SSJ2 > Cell.

When Goku showed up and casually used the form even Gohan couldn't use without severe psychological triggering, he became grumpy. We can't say that he was measuring Goku's full power from the Yakon fight, because Goku didn't use his full power. How do we know? Babidi and Dabura where monitoring, and Dabura still felt confident in his ability to defeat them.

When Babidi takes control of Vegeta, he says that he is releasing his hidden powers, so that he can overcome his limits.
Basically, some people believe that Vegeta, being Vegeta, trained non stop to overcome all known forms.
I see the evidence as this- he fell into a funk, swearing off combat. This changed down the line, but nothing to suggest it was extreme. Later, he sees Goku use the form even after death, and gets crunky and snappy. He is targeted and possessed, and his "limits" are overcome due to an unlocking of his "hidden" potential. Considering he spent 7 years depressed over the death of his rival, and falling into an uncomfortable family man routine (which he directly cites to Goku as the source of his percieved WEAKNESS) I think it is easy enough to assume the Majin spell removed his mental blocks and gave him the purity of purpose and raw anger to trigger the change into a SSJ2.

he went ssj2 while in the hyperbolic time chamber training to beat cell when he told the others he found a way to go further he him and trunks both went ssj2 but couldnt control last that long that's why when goku went ssj2 and gohan went ss he said keep in the ss stage while training and relaxing thus why when gohan unleashes his power truck said something like "he found a way to go further and not lose speed" either way it was in cell saga

Vegeta didn't need Babidi's magic to turn SSJ2 - he had already achieved that milestone through seven years of intense training.

The only reason Vegeta allowed Babidi to possess him was to remove his inhibitions. Vegeta even later said it himself... he had grown "soft" living on Earth and needed to go back to having an evil heart so he would fight mercilessly, without inhibitions. Any "boost" Vegeta received was psychological; he saw his attachments on Earth as a weakness that kept him back from his full potential, including the shred of respect he had for Goku. He also wanted to royally piss off Goku, to taunt him into fighting at his full potential.

Vegeta already had the power within him to fight as a SSJ2; he just thought he could win fighting like the complete a**hole he used to be early in the series.

In the manga, he makes a statement about Goku "achieving the next level of super saiyan as well", Implying he does indeed turn Ssj2 during the 7 year gap.

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Well, since its already been bumped, ill take a stab.

I'm looking right at it (it's a scan, not the Viz, for what that's worth). Everyone here is saying oh he was fine, and he casually remarks that Goku can do it too. He actually looks kind of mad in the first panel, and is irritated when remarking about Goku having the form. I've always taken that to mean Goku "as well" as Gohan. Goku died as an FPSSJ, so Vegeta probably didn't assume he had shot up a couple of forms. Remember, he had to ask Piccolo for specifics on how bodies in the afterlife work, AFTER his fight with Goku. So he was hardly an expert there.

Also, people forget- when the fight with Cell was over, Vegeta said he would never fight again. We know with his son getting older that he began training again (and training his kid to stay ahead of Goten). I even think he went ahead and locked down FPSSJ. But I don't see him spending the entire time skip aggresively training. Or stealth-transforming with NO emotional trigger. Keep in mind absolutely everyone is surprised when Vegeta transforms into SSJ2 before fighting Goku. The SSj transformations by the kids are already a stretch, but I think Piccolo at least would have sensed him going SSJ2. Couldn't the Namekians sense Cell's power up on New Namek? And SSJ2 > Cell.

When Goku showed up and casually used the form even Gohan couldn't use without severe psychological triggering, he became grumpy. We can't say that he was measuring Goku's full power from the Yakon fight, because Goku didn't use his full power. How do we know? Babidi and Dabura where monitoring, and Dabura still felt confident in his ability to defeat them.

When Babidi takes control of Vegeta, he says that he is releasing his hidden powers, so that he can overcome his limits.
Basically, some people believe that Vegeta, being Vegeta, trained non stop to overcome all known forms.
I see the evidence as this- he fell into a funk, swearing off combat. This changed down the line, but nothing to suggest it was extreme. Later, he sees Goku use the form even after death, and gets crunky and snappy. He is targeted and possessed, and his "limits" are overcome due to an unlocking of his "hidden" potential. Considering he spent 7 years depressed over the death of his rival, and falling into an uncomfortable family man routine (which he directly cites to Goku as the source of his percieved WEAKNESS) I think it is easy enough to assume the Majin spell removed his mental blocks and gave him the purity of purpose and raw anger to trigger the change into a SSJ2.

*deposits 2 cents on counter*

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What I like about your comment is you go by the manga. People forget that Vegeta said he would never fight again after Goku dies. I don't think that he stopped training necessarily, though he could have for a moment, but I don't think he had the drive he would have if Goku hadn't died. Another thing people are confused about is how you go ssj2 as compared to ssj1. It's no easy task, and it's not the same for everyone. Gohan is unlike Goku and Vegeta, not only having hidden potential which all Sayain have, but can unlock it through intense anger without having to train. Goku and Vegeta can get as angry as they want and it won't push them to the next level, only training can do this. Goku had an advantage over Vegeta during the time skip, he was dead and had less rules for his body to overcome, allowing him to train and surpass his limits much easier, as in the ssj3 transformation. Goku was ahead if Vegeta to begin with after Cell, but Vegeta had no idea Goku could go ssj2 until Yakon and had to take drastic measures to catch up. Also, these other people commenting don't have the first clue about what the manga says and therefore they say things like "Gohan was ssj2 against Dabura therefore...." ... WRONG! Go read the manga, it is clear that when someone surpasses ssj1 there is the appearance of bolts of electricity around their body, every time, unlike in the anime where the animators were lazy. Go to the manga where Goku fights kid buu as a ssj3 and compare the scenes to the anime and you'll see how lazy the animators were.

Allow me to clarify this for good. Vegeta had indeed reached ss2 within those 7 years, I mean come on you people really think he wouldn't strive in 7 years to get to level 2? He clearly new about the power so he trained until he reached it. As to goku revealing his strength to yakonn he was never a ss2. If you watched the show you know he was only ss1. The true reason vegeta found out goku was stronger because as goku surged that light energy at Yakon it was his pure inner strength formed as light energy period that made vegeta realize even as a trained ss2, Goku still holds the advantage. So when the time came that vegeta was recruited as a majin he knew with the extra power he would finally be gokus equal or possibly stronger as he hoped. When they both turned ss2 and fought , the end result was a tie. Vegeta was deff a ss2 the day of the martial arts tournament and knew goku most deff had reached it as well but goku is just goku and will strive for the best

Damn. Random ass bumps from people who just made an account to comment on this subject lol.

I believe he did reach SSJ2 in those 7 years, but I'm not sure how quickly since he did say he would never fight again and the world was at peace for 7 straight years. This would make you think he stopped training, but come the world tournament the only reason he was there was so he could fight Goku and best him one last time. If it were true that he stopped fighting/training then why would he think he would stand a chance with Goku who was clearly more powerful than him during the Cell games?

This makes me believe that Vegeta resumed training so not only could he become stronger than Goku at the time of his death, but also hope to become as strong as Gohan. Vegeta has this thing where he wants to be the stronger than Goku which is fairly obvious, but if he can't become stronger than a dead Goku so then becoming stronger than Goku's son would be the next best thing. Gohan turned SSJ2. Vegeta trains to reach SSJ2 and possibly even stronger than that during those 7 years. Vegeta then loses his patience with Gohan and having to wait to fight Goku so he lets himself turn Majin so he could have an excuse to finally test his strength against Goku after 7 years and prove he's finally stronger.

Just look at the ease with which Vegeta transformed into SSJ2 as Majin Vegeta. Idc how much stronger Babidi's magic makes someone. It's not going to teach Vegeta how to transform into a new level. If that were the case then that would mean that there was a cap on how strong SSJ could get and that Babidi's magic took Vegeta past that cap and on to SSJ2. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Vegeta was NOT a ssj2 before the majin boost, i don't know why you guys are saying that. He wasn't training in the 7 years gap to reach goku or gohan, he was just training trunks and mastering his ssj1.

Majin boost gave vegeta the ssj2 mastered. When he came back to fight kid buu, he was ssj2 already, but weaker than majin stage. Saiyan's body always remember their transformations.

And by the way, lightning appears when they are at full power in ssj2 form. They can be ssj2 without the lightning, there is about 20 proof about that statement.

Just look at the ease with which Vegeta transformed into SSJ2 as Majin Vegeta. Idc how much stronger Babidi's magic makes someone. It's not going to teach Vegeta how to transform into a new level. If that were the case then that would mean that there was a cap on how strong SSJ could get and that Babidi's magic took Vegeta past that cap and on to SSJ2. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Vegeta was already a SSJ2.

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He transform with ease cuz the majin gave him a boost of a full powered ssj2. The boost was alot more than just ssj2. Vegeta was a ssj1 mastered before the power up. After he died, he came back as a ssj2 but he was alot weaker than the majin version. As a pure saiyan, his body absorbed the ssj2 power.

Just look at the ease with which Vegeta transformed into SSJ2 as Majin Vegeta. Idc how much stronger Babidi's magic makes someone. It's not going to teach Vegeta how to transform into a new level. If that were the case then that would mean that there was a cap on how strong SSJ could get and that Babidi's magic took Vegeta past that cap and on to SSJ2. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Vegeta was already a SSJ2.

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I'm going to be terrible and bump this again lol. I think it was easy because he was under a magical full power unlock spell.

Look at Mystic Gohan. How did he access the power that surpassed even a Super Saiyan 3 for the first time? By trying to become a Super Saiyan.

I personally see Super Saiyan forms as gates to a Saiyan's power. So, in this case, Vegeta powered to his max and Hus body shifted into its new most optimal state (that of a Super Saiyan 2). He already had the POTENTIAL for this, but hadn't had an emotional trigger. That and/or purity of purpose are crucial triggers, and Majin Vegeta specifically states that his family man routine fudged his warrior's focus. It's the very reason he says he submitted, to rid himself of those attachments. I just don't see how this vaguely depressed and uncomfortable guy living mostly like a human, feeling a loss of purpose can be said to have achieved a new Super Saiyan form at that time.

I think people forget that nearly every time he acts superior to Gohan, it's also under the context of Gohan having gotten drastically weaker than when he fought Cell. "Gohan when he fought Cell" is brought up a few times as a benchmark. I know people think that him wanting to fight Dabura means he was SSJ2. Just keep in mind, Goku thought Gohan could take Cell as a FPSSJ (he just didn't have his head in the game). SSJ2 was overkill before Cell's own upgrade to Super Perfect. Vegeta could very well have refined his own SSJ form above what Goku displayed in the Cell Games, been quite capable of fighting Dabura, and not necessarily been a SSJ2.

And no one who thinks he was already SSJ2 has every really been able to answer what they think his trigger was for the change, and how nobody sensed his ascension. Again, Cell's full Perfect power was sensed on New Name. Heck, various characters sensed (and where confused by) Piccolo and Cell's first fight. They where much weaker than an SSJ2. Vegeta randomly leveling up in the gravity chamber would have been noticed.

We could theorize he might have done it in the Time Chamber, just keep in mind that would be entirely fan theory. There's no evidence of this.

Vegeta never achieved SSJ2 before Majin and that much is made pretty clear in the show if you are paying attention. The reason he decides to even let Babidi control him in the first place is because he sees Goku briefly ascend to SSJ2 which means that he wasn't capable of doing it.

as he states here

Vegeta then goes on to state in his respect speech to Goku that he never really got stronger after the 7 years

Except that those links are from the funimation dub Blueblur, which takes some liberties with the dialogue. In the actual stories script from the manga and the original dubs as many others have said. In the Yakkon fight, from my understanding atleast, Vegeta realizes that Goku has found a way to master SS2(as well as openly stating that Kakarot has also broken through SSJ), where he himself failed in his years of training, probably because he approached it like mastering SSJ. I think the trigger to master SS2 was that extreme rage Babidi setoff in him, as that rage is actually the key to unlocking SS3. Goku was pretty keen on that stuff obviously, he figured out how to to go FPSSJ and MSSJ much faster then anyone else, as a character he is good at feeling things out.

Vegeta knew he'd get a boost definitely, but he probably didn't even realize that in that state he had mastered SS2, this is also likely why Vegeta never got SS3, as he never reached into that deep primal rage Goku describes afew times. I think mastery of one level seems to be a prerequisite for unlocking the next level of SS. Even the kids were easily mastered, they just unlocked it through their heritage and using so SSJ young, they are happy, silly and always having fun in SS and SS3... Even Goku has a hard time composing himself in SS3 but the boys do it like its nothing. Vegeta 100% had SS2 before Majin, unless you stick to the funimation dub, but most educated DBZ fans are aware of this debate given what Akira Toriyama actually wrote, Vegeta got SS2 offscreen, just as he got SSJ offscreen.

He was SSJ2 when he was Majin Vegeta. The first time we saw him as a SSJ2 under normal conditions was when he fought Kid Buu.

Its implied that in the 7 year gap he not only mastered the FPSSJ (been a while since I typed that one lol) but also attained SSJ2.

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Actually he was ssj2 when he and goku were fighting mistic gohan buu, though its hardly noticeable at all do to the fact that there is almost never any blue electricity flying around him like there is supposed to be in the ssj2 state, which always leaves me super confused on whether or not he is just a normal super saiyan or a super saiyan 2. When he is fighting kid buu it would be impossible to know whether or not he's a ssj2 unless you look it up because there is no signification that he ever was one, unless you see the crackling blue energy that surrounds him (which happens once in the range of this fight to several movie/episodes later) while he is desperately barraging kid buu with ki blasts to buy time for goku to charge his energy.I'm also confused on whether he was a super saiyan or a super saiyan 2 when he fought junampa.