lama tsewang wrote:I was not trying to make any personal attack , with my previous post. I am trying to show how dangerous some of these statements can be .

I am reminded of what Nagarjuna , or rather what i have bee told, That it is much more dangerous to be attached to emptiness , than to be attached to following precepts and being attached to relative truthtsewang

Who said anything about emptiness? Nagarjuna was referring to nihilists saying that there was no such thing as cause and effect and then neither sowing the seeds of positive results nor avoiding harming others which is obviously a catastrophe. I have not made any such claim. I am simply saying that Vajrayana is by nature dangerous, requires sharp faculties, honesty about one's capability and a strong conscience.

As Woody Guthrie said,

"I love a good man outside the law, just as much as I hate a bad man inside the law."

gregkavarnos wrote:Dude, it doesn't turn to shit becaue of the vows/precepts themselves, like it doesn't turn to shit due to the tantric practice itself. Just that it is MUCH easier for the tantric practice to turn to shit on all fronts. What do I mean by this? If somebody screws up their vows via egoism and pride at least they will gain the benefit of having kept the vows and not having engaged in unholesome actions. If somebody screws up their tantric practice for the same reason, well the outcome is a (vajra) hell of a lot worse for them.

So now you are arguing my point that Vajrayana is inherently dangerous. Good.

but what of the tantric prexcepts they require that someone follow all the conventional silas and much more Verry few, including myself , have learned them well, and yet they are the life blood of the vajrayana path.tsewang

lama tsewang wrote:but what of the tantric prexcepts they require that someone follow all the conventional silas and much more Verry few, including myself , have learned them well, and yet they are the life blood of the vajrayana path.tsewang

The tantric precepts are much harder to keep than the pratimoksha. If you can keep samaya, all of the rest is complete in that.

Drinking wine and eating meat can also be due to conditioning. Oaky, if you were living in a medieval Brahamanic society, with its extreme emphasis on purity, then it would be transgressive, but right now drinking wine and eating meat is the norm. Go into any cafe, bar, restaurant, etc... and see what is happening. What do you see? The triumphal reign of tantrism or the Mara of conditioned habit? I know what I see. Seems the description for transgressive has changed since Saraha was around. Now it is transgressive to be able to successfully maintain the five precepts. Wouldn't you agree.

Excellent point. To be transgressive these days you'd have to go on a weeklong ketamine and crystal meth binge followed by an orgy. Wine and vanilla sex just don't cut it anymore.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

Karma Dorje wrote:Vajrayana is *meant* to be transgressive. Look at the life of Saraha. Drinking wine and eating meat is meant to overcome conditioning (as well as the effect it has on one's channels and winds). It's not meant to just condition you to a new normal. Realization is the ultimate transgressive act.

I think that kinda stopped the moment Indo-tibetan Vajrayana grew into an institution. Being transgressive is fine when one is a wandering siddha living on the fringe of society. Not when one is the head of a lineage with lots of monasteries - that tends to cause more problems than it is worth.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

Drinking wine and eating meat can also be due to conditioning. Oaky, if you were living in a medieval Brahamanic society, with its extreme emphasis on purity, then it would be transgressive, but right now drinking wine and eating meat is the norm. Go into any cafe, bar, restaurant, etc... and see what is happening. What do you see? The triumphal reign of tantrism or the Mara of conditioned habit? I know what I see. Seems the description for transgressive has changed since Saraha was around. Now it is transgressive to be able to successfully maintain the five precepts. Wouldn't you agree.

Excellent point. To be transgressive these days you'd have to go on a weeklong ketamine and crystal meth binge followed by an orgy. Wine and vanilla sex just don't cut it anymore.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

Some quotes from Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye Rinpoche from the posted website.

...it is difficult to recognize an authentic teacher, because these qualities are internal. We can not depend upon external factors, but external factors are what we see. It is very difficult to see the inner qualities of another person.

...Am I seeking a teacher in order to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings, or am I seeking to fulfill my need to acquire the prestige associated with a famous teacher, or am I merely attracted to a lama's beautiful retreat land or the social scene of a hip sangha, and so on.

These motivations need to be acknowledged if we are to recognize an authentic wisdom teacher, because the teacher you find is related to your karma, and your karma is intimately connected to your motivation.

Fortunately, there are methods that help us purify our motivation and create the proper conditions for finding a wisdom teacher, such as bringing our awareness to our motivations as much as possible, doing daily meditation practice".

Finally the only way to conquer all the fake ones is by to see fake me, then true help can be.

Harold wrote:Do anyone know anything about this woman Dhyani Ywahoo who claims to be both a Cherokee Chief and a Tibetan Khandro.There are a lot of websites that claim that she's a fake Cherokee. It appears that she claims Dujom Rinpoche gave her the very high title of Khandro.Thanks

The status of someone's Cherokee connection isn't really the topic of this forum. Instead of counting everyone else's sheep it might be more beneficial to mind one's own sheep.

I'd argue that the path of the Vinaya may be more transgressive of contemporary cultural conventions than falling into a ketamine hole. Withdrawing from consumerism (including the consumption of sexuality), on purpose, may be a radical act. This is, in my poor opinion, a very good thing.

sorry for the

Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

I'd argue that the path of the Vinaya may be more transgressive of contemporary cultural conventions than falling into a ketamine hole. Withdrawing from consumerism (including the consumption of sexuality), on purpose, may be a radical act. This is, in my poor opinion, a very good thing.

sorry for the

It can also be seen as an assault on freedom to suggest that lust is a mental poison.

Of course my comments were in jest but pointing at the permisiveness in society. Drinking, drugs and irreponsible sex (ie unprotected or with multiple partners) are the norm rather than transgressive.If these behaviour weren't harmful I wouldn't say anything but we know they can cause very serious suffering. Because of the Christian Right's domination around issues of values unfortunately ethics/morality are linked to conservative social values, as soon as abstinence or monogamy are mentioned people cringe. But that is because we have yet to establish an ethical framework that doesn't condemn but acts as a system to support society.

I am not advocating celibacy as a liftestyle choice for any more than a small minority of people. But I must say honestly that sometimes I feel discrimminated against because of my choices. People seem to think celibacy turns every young person into a withdrawn neurotic terrified of going for a walk because they might see cleavage.

No one forced me to make this choice and I am not a prisoner. I chose it because I felt it enhanced my spiritual practice and because it is a way of life praised by Lord Buddha and countless other realized beings.

You'd be surprised at some of the comments/concerns that I hear from people on a regular basis about my "unhealthy decision".

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

If people are going to argue that a celibacy is bad for one's health or good for one's health in this day and age there needs to be some scientific evidence for it. I'm going to start another thread on this question.

JKhedrup wrote:I am not advocating celibacy as a liftestyle choice for any more than a small minority of people. But I must say honestly that sometimes I feel discrimminated against because of my choices. People seem to think celibacy turns every young person into a withdrawn neurotic terrified of going for a walk because they might see cleavage.

No one forced me to make this choice and I am not a prisoner. I chose it because I felt it enhanced my spiritual practice and because it is a way of life praised by Lord Buddha and countless other realized beings.

You'd be surprised at some of the comments/concerns that I hear from people on a regular basis about my "unhealthy decision".

I know how you feel. I am not celibate but I made a conscious decision in my twenties not to marry or have children. It's just not how I want to spend my life. I want to be free to practise and not be tied to a job I don't like because I have family commitments.

Most people I know look at me as if I'm an alien. Secretly, I think they believe it is an excuse for not being able to attract a life partner.

For my part, I just cannot fathom why someone would want to put all their life energy into raising kids. It just seems a crazy thing to do when there is so much to learn and experience in the world.

Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.