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Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

Wilt the Stilt was JUST AWESOME. He was so unbelieveably athletic, agile, and mobile. The greatest big man EVER!! He could be said the greatest BB player ever.

The problem I have with this thread is that few posters on this board have seen players who played in the 50's 60's, or 70's. If you never saw them play, you are at a great disadvantage ranking players.

Wilt was THE player in his time! He was head and shoulders above the rest. Chamberlain didn't have the quality of players surrounding him like Russell did, thus he didn't win Championships, but what he did do was make his team championship caliber contenders by himself. Most don't remember or know Wilt's 1st team was the Phiadelphia Warriors. Quick name another player on that team without goggling the answer. I watched many a game of Wilt's, and that's why I can say how GREAT he was!

How many are aware after the NBA that Wilt played volleyball? He was an ATHLETE personified!

Wilt hated be called "the stilt". His favorite nickname was "The Big Dipper". We are also forgetting about his most impressive athletic achievement, Wilt's 20,000...... ...

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

What about all of the other teams that beat Wilt when he was a Warrior? It's not like he was making it to the Finals every year, only to lose to the loaded Celtics teams. He only played the Celtics once in his six year tenure as a Warrior, meaning that it was the other teams in the West who were usually knocking Wilt out in the playoffs. So clearly it didn't take 7 Celtics HOFers to knock Wilt out. Most of the time it took much less. Were the other teams in the West really that much better than the Warriors? Or is it possible that one player shooting the ball 34 times a game is not exactly the best formula for winning?

If one is going to rank Wilt as high as 1-3, then they inevitably have to make excuses for his glaring lack of postseason success. There's no excuses needed for Jordan. The man literally accomplished every single thing an athlete could accomplish. Are championships the only important factor? Of course not. But we're talking about basketball, a sport where one player can dominate the game on both ends. If we're talking all-time greats, then I'm going to give the edge to the player with 6 rings over the one with 2, especially when the one with 6 played in a much deeper era against far better athletes.

I doubt you were even born when Wilt laced up his sneakers on a NBA BB court, yet you know how great Wilt was! Or that Philly gave Wilt a blank contract to fill in his own salary. Which was 1 mil. The 1st million dollar pro athlete.

You talking about Wilt would be like me talking about Dan Patch. Before my time, just a name I've heard others talk about. I CAN talk about Wilt, b/c I saw him play from the beginning of his career to his retirement. Your wrong about how great Wilt was! Again, Wilt never had the players surrounding him Russell had, so his early teams weren't that good. But that doesn't change how great he was.

P/s Ted Williams was one of the "all time great baseball players", AND he NEVER won a World Series. I don't believe the Bosox ever won the American league pennant while he played for them. Doesn't mean he wasn't great then nor does it mean he wouldn't be great today.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

Or is it possible that one player shooting the ball 34 times a game is not exactly the best formula for winning?

When one shoots 55% from the field - I don't see how that could be a negative.

And there were seasons when he was well over 60%. His last season in the league he shot 73%. And led the league in rebounding. He decided one year to lead the league in assists. He did. The guy was simply incredible.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I doubt you were even born when Wilt laced up his sneakers on a NBA BB court, yet you know how great Wilt was! Or that Philly gave Wilt a blank contract to fill in his own salary. Which was 1 mil. The 1st million dollar pro athlete.

You talking about Wilt would be like me talking about Dan Patch. Before my time, just a name I've heard others talk about. I CAN talk about Wilt, b/c I saw him play from the beginning of his career to his retirement. Your wrong about how great Wilt was! Again, Wilt never had the players surrounding him Russell had, so his early teams weren't that good. But that doesn't change how great he was.
.

I wasn't alive on December 7, 1941, but I know that Pearl Harbor was bombed 71 years ago today. Since when is it a requirement that one has to have seen a player play in person before they can put them on something as dubious and trivial as an "all-time list" on a freaking internet message board? I bet like 80% of the people here never watched Wilt play either.

Clearly someone who watched Wilt is going to know more about him than someone like me who wasn't alive at the time, which is why I thanked Olblu. But the problem here is that most people on this forum never saw him play either. Are you saying that everyone who wasn't alive when Wilt played should be forbidden from commenting on him, or are you only singling me out because you didn't like what I had to say?

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I wasn't alive on December 7, 1941, but I know that Pearl Harbor was bombed 71 years ago today. Since when is it a requirement that one has to have seen a player play in person before they can put them on something as dubious and trivial as an "all-time list"? I bet like 80% of the people here never watched Wilt play either.

Clearly someone who watched Wilt is going to know more about him than someone like me who wasn't alive at the time, which is why I thanked Olblu. But the problem here is that most people on this forum never saw him play either. Are you saying that everyone who wasn't alive when Wilt played should be forbidden from commenting on him, or are you only singling me out because you didn't like what I had to say?

I'm not singling you out. I'm just saying you or others who never saw Wilt play can't truly evaluate his greatness. You were never blessed to see his Greatness 1st hand. That winning Championships isn't a criteria that GREATNESS should be based upon. Some seem to feel it is. I could name many great old time baseball players who never won a World Series that are still ALLTIME GREAT players.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I agree. Championships matter far more in basketball than football or baseball when it comes to ranking all-time greats. In football you can only play one side of the field and in baseball you can only bat 4 or 5 times. But in basketball you have the opportunity to dominate both ends of the court.

Winning only two championships in an era where there were like 14 teams just isn't enough to be labeled a top 3 all time player, IMO. I don't see how anyone could put him over Jordan when Jordan won 6 championships in an era where there were far more teams, not to mention a far better talent pool of athletes. There was literally nothing else that Jordan could have accomplished in his career. The man did it all. With Wilt OTOH, there will always be a "yeah, but....." Wilt is not top 3.

Now I obviously never saw Wilt play, but I'm going to presume that the majority of the people commenting here didn't either. He last played in 1973, so you'd have to be in your early 50's to have any memory of him. You'd have to be closer to 60 to have any clear memory of him during the prime of his career.

I am 65 so I remember when Wilt played. I also will admit that the NBA was not what it is now as there were very few games one tv. You can make all the numbers mean what ever you want but when it comes to Wilt the numbers mean he was by far the best most dominate player ever. The thing about having fewer teams is that every team had several good players. When Jordan played and won his championships the league had expanded and the talent pool was really spread out. So when Jordan played he had another top 5 player (Pippen) on his team. No other team had 2 top 5 players. Also Jordan never won ship when bird and Magic were in their prime. As a matter of fact Bird's record in games against Jordan was 24 wins to 16 losses. Jordan record in the playoffs against Bird was 0 and 6. Two best of 5 series and he couldn't even win 1 game. Nike and Pippen made Jordan the greatest of all time, just not to me. Give me Wilt everytime.

Good is the enemy of Great

We're changing the identity of our basketball team -- dramatically. We're a power post team -- a blood-and-guts, old-school, smash-mouth team that plays with size, strength, speed and athleticism. We attack the basket. . . . This is the new identity of our team. It was a great effort. I'm very proud of our guys."
-- Frank Vogel.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I am 65 so I remember when Wilt played. I also will admit that the NBA was not what it is now as there were very few games one tv. You can make all the numbers mean what ever you want but when it comes to Wilt the numbers mean he was by far the best most dominate player ever. The thing about having fewer teams is that every team had several good players. When Jordan played and won his championships the league had expanded and the talent pool was really spread out. So when Jordan played he had another top 5 player (Pippen) on his team. No other team had 2 top 5 players. Also Jordan never won ship when bird and Magic were in their prime. As a matter of fact Bird's record in games against Jordan was 24 wins to 16 losses. Jordan record in the playoffs against Bird was 0 and 6. Two best of 5 series and he couldn't even win 1 game. Nike and Pippen made Jordan the greatest of all time, just not to me. Give me Wilt everytime.

I too am 65 and I saw Wilt in all of those years too. I agree with every word you say here. ...

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

Both Wilt and Russell were way before my time, but I'll put in my 2 cents anyways. Wilt was better. Older people that I've spoken to about Wilt, describe him as inhuman, unstoppable force. Russell has the hardware, but you need to look into more of their accomplishments besides the championships. 100 points...I doubt this will ever happen again in the NBA. Another reason Wilt is better is because Bill Simmons says Russell is better. Simmons is almost always wrong when it comes to player evaluations

Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I also saw Wilt go against Kareem at the end of his career and you are correct, Wilt was a whole lot better. Wilt was the best rebounder to ever play the game. He was also a great defender and shot blocker. He was as strong or stronger than Shaq and much more mobile. They changed the rules for Shaq. If he had played like that in Wilt's day, he would have fouled out of every game in the first quarter..... ...

I think Kareem is an excellent measuring stick and Wilt was clearly a better player. At the same time, I don't think Kareem matched up all that well with Wilt. Wilt was too powerful. I think Shaq and Hakeem would have given him more problems.

Also, I think the 90's was the strongest era of big men and it didn't end with the Shaqs, Robinsons, Kareems, Hakeems and Ewings. I think Wilt was better than any of them, but I think that era would have been more challenging for him. Mourning and Mutombo are a couple others that would have defended Wilt fairly well.

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Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

'71 or '72 playoff game, Old Wilt, young Kareem, 7 blocks by Wilt on Kareem, 2 on one possession:

In an 8 team, two division league, when with Philly he would face Russell over 20 times a year including playoffs. He faced Hall of Famers weekly. The crack about "average centers being 6'7" tall" is made up BS. Heights were measured barefoot and he faced the 6 '9 1/2" Russell (with freakish length), 6'11" Bellamy, 6"11" Thurmond, 7"0' Counts, 6"9' Pettit, and others. The smallest starting center I am aware of in he era was Red Kerr of the Bulls at 6"8".

Wilt had his 55 rebound game being guarded by Russell, the best defender ever. The year Wilt averaged 50, he averaged over 45 against Russell. Before Wilt's rookie year no NBA player had ever averaged even 30 ppg, so the game was largely transformed by him and also by the Celtics passing/fast break style, which many copied.

Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 12-08-2012 at 12:30 AM.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).
I'm (maybe) back after being repetedly banned, merely for supporting a different NFL team than do certain forum moderators.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I'm not singling you out. I'm just saying you or others who never saw Wilt play can't truly evaluate his greatness. You were never blessed to see his Greatness 1st hand. That winning Championships isn't a criteria that GREATNESS should be based upon. Some seem to feel it is. I could name many great old time baseball players who never won a World Series that are still ALLTIME GREAT players.

I agree that championships aren't the only indicator. However, championships in basketball are more important than in football or baseball when it comes to judging individual greatness. In baseball, you can only bat 4 or 5 times a game. In football, you can only play one end of the field. However, in basketball you have the unique opportunity to dominate at both ends of the court. That's what Jordan did. He literally willed the Bulls to championships. In 1998, the Pacers and Jazz were both probably better overall teams than Chicago. Pip had been hurt all year and wasn't the same as in prior years. But Jordan literally willed the Bulls to victory. Putting a team on your back and leading it to a championship like MJ did 6 times matters a helluva lot in a debate like this.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I know Russell played with atleast 6-7 other HOF players on the Celtics, but I'm not sure how many Wilt ever had. Anyone know?

When you compare individual stats, Wilt blows Russell out of the water. They both averaged 22rebs for their entire careers (crazy) but Wilt doubled Bill's scoring average. 30.1ppg average compared to 15.1ppg average.

Russell's fg% of 44% isn't very good, compared to 54% for Wilt.

I just never know how to translate their era to the modern one or even the 80s or 90s NBA. I tend to think they wouldn't do nearly as well today (particularly Russell at his size and skill set) with those same bodies/talent, though they would still be good or very good players. No way to really know, I guess.

That's why I always have trouble with putting them in my 'best ever' lists because I have a hard time separating how dominant and awesome they were in their own era with how I think they might fare in 2012.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I don't know if anybody feels the same way I feel with the old school players but to me when I compare old school players to this new era of NBA players is not even close, this new guys are bigger and stronger, I think that a lot of old school hall of famers would be bench players or decent starters in this new NBA so when I make a list of top 10 all NBA players I take this into consideration.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I don't know if anybody feels the same way I feel with the old school players but to me when I compare old school players to this new era of NBA players is not even close, this new guys are bigger and stronger, I think that a lot of old school hall of famers would be bench players or decent starters in this new NBA so when I make a list of top 10 all NBA players I take this into consideration.

Well, Wilt would be bigger and stronger and faster than any other centers in the game now. Oscar Robertson would be bigger than just about every point guard now. ...

How about the "logo"? Didn't he average 30 points per game in the playoffs? I would have both Jerry West and Oscar Robertson ahead of Kobe. That makes Kobe the fourth best Laker and just barely in the top ten...... I also think Moses Malone rates ahead of Olajuwan and Duncan ...

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I don't know if anybody feels the same way I feel with the old school players but to me when I compare old school players to this new era of NBA players is not even close, this new guys are bigger and stronger, I think that a lot of old school hall of famers would be bench players or decent starters in this new NBA so when I make a list of top 10 all NBA players I take this into consideration.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I don't know if anybody feels the same way I feel with the old school players but to me when I compare old school players to this new era of NBA players is not even close, this new guys are bigger and stronger, I think that a lot of old school hall of famers would be bench players or decent starters in this new NBA so when I make a list of top 10 all NBA players I take this into consideration.

I understand why you feel that way. I assume you are a young man. Let me educate you a little. Being big and strong and athlectic is not something that happened since 1995. There have always been athlectic people it is nothing new. Kevin Love led the league in rebounding, he is not bigger or stonger than Wilt, Artis, Thurmond, Reed, Unseld and a lot of other past greats.

D. Howard is big and strong and athectic, but he has no skill set and is the most overrated center I have ever seen. He looks good and you think he should be better than all those guys I listed, but he isn't. I enjoy your post for the most part, but on this we just have to disagree.

Good is the enemy of Great

We're changing the identity of our basketball team -- dramatically. We're a power post team -- a blood-and-guts, old-school, smash-mouth team that plays with size, strength, speed and athleticism. We attack the basket. . . . This is the new identity of our team. It was a great effort. I'm very proud of our guys."
-- Frank Vogel.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I understand why you feel that way. I assume you are a young man. Let me educate you a little. Being big and strong and athlectic is not something that happened since 1995. There have always been athlectic people it is nothing new. Kevin Love led the league in rebounding, he is not bigger or stonger than Wilt, Artis, Thurmond, Reed, Unseld and a lot of other past greats.

D. Howard is big and strong and athectic, but he has no skill set and is the most overrated center I have ever seen. He looks good and you think he should be better than all those guys I listed, but he isn't. I enjoy your post for the most part, but on this we just have to disagree.

I was talking about recent hall of famers or future hall of famers compared to old school hall of famers I was not talking about just any NBA player, for example if I had a choice between West and Kobe I take Kobe 10 times out of 10.

And with that said I believe that players like Russel, Walton, Kareem and others would have been just fine in this era.

Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

I was talking about recent hall of famers or future hall of famers compared to old school hall of famers I was not talking about just any NBA player, for example if I had a choice between West and Kobe I take Kobe 10 times out of 10.

And with that said I believe that players like Russel, Walton, Kareem and others would have been just fine in this era.

You also have to take into account that players during the era you are referencing did not have the technological, nutritional, or health advancements that today's players utilize. Give George McGinnis today's advancements and he is no different than LeBron athletically. Give Kemp or David Thompson or Drexler or Dr. J or Wilkins or Wilt etc. the same, and they are on par with the most athletic players today but with an actual basketball skillset.