I have a certain water for you my friend! But I don't think you will like its taste...

What part of my post appears blasphemous to you, oh fellow Fedaykin?

Anything that refers to BH or the Hack and their atrocities is blasphemous to Dune.

Btw ... Welcome Home!

Some atrocities can't be avoided. Like Justin Bieber. But yeah. I've tried to be open-minded about Hunters and Sandworms but at the end I've just decided to send both of them to the desert for Shai-Hulud. But unfortunately both was the digital versions and I had to just send them to a recycle bin

I just realized this for the first time...the association between "Golden" and the Biblical Golden Calf (which almost even rhymes with Golden Path). After all, the Golden Path was about setting up a living God to be worshipped, an idol to oppress the universe until it exploded. Now that I think of it I can't help but thing this was intentional and was exactly what Frank had in mind. That would make "Golden Path" literally be the blueprint for the actual plan of action, and in some ironic sense make an idol of gold just as the ancient Hebrews did, turning value on its head and showing that the thing which people worship is why they verge toward decadence. In the Bible what they worshipped was gold, but in Frank's world what they worship is leaders and heroes, so what better way to give a lesson their bones would remember than to give them exactly what they do desperately wanted - their version of the Golden Calf - the KH as a God.

georgiedenbro wrote:I just realized this for the first time...the association between "Golden" and the Biblical Golden Calf (which almost even rhymes with Golden Path). After all, the Golden Path was about setting up a living God to be worshipped, an idol to oppress the universe until it exploded. Now that I think of it I can't help but thing this was intentional and was exactly what Frank had in mind. That would make "Golden Path" literally be the blueprint for the actual plan of action, and in some ironic sense make an idol of gold just as the ancient Hebrews did, turning value on its head and showing that the thing which people worship is why they verge toward decadence. In the Bible what they worshipped was gold, but in Frank's world what they worship is leaders and heroes, so what better way to give a lesson their bones would remember than to give them exactly what they do desperately wanted - their version of the Golden Calf - the KH as a God.

And Frank brought "back" the Jewish people in Heretics of Dune ...

"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,and wrote a Dune Novel."

the Golden Path is the survival and continuation of the human race. no more, no less.

to achieve that end, Leto II consolidated the known universe under his rule and enforced millennia of political/cultural/economic stability and tranquility. the whole point of this was to build up wanderlust, innovation, and rebellion against charismatic authority

by concentrating power in his hands, that meant that his death would be the bursting of a societal dam that had stood for millennia, releasing a torrent of energy and expansion which became The Scattering. by spreading the human race far and wide in the universe, by breeding prescience-cloaking genes, by encouraging innovation (no-globes, ixian navigators, etc.), and by weaning the human race off of their dependence on spice from Arrakis, he ensured human survival.

he didn't do this for power, narcissism, or long life. in fact, Leto II took on a huge burden and sacrifice (which was too much for Paul-Muad'dib) to prevent human extinction.

This is somewhat off-topic, but it just occurred to me: Leto's Peace is structured like Plato's Republic. Leto II as philosopher-king, Fish Speakers as the guardian class, and everyone else as workers/producers.

xcalibur wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but it just occurred to me: Leto's Peace is structured like Plato's Republic. Leto II as philosopher-king, Fish Speakers as the guardian class, and everyone else as workers/producers.

Assuming the comparison is apt (I'll be reading the Republic again in a few months, most likely, so I can check up on it) do you take this to mean that Plato himself was satirizing the notion of a good republic in his dialogue just as Leto II was deliberately satirizing bad government?

xcalibur wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but it just occurred to me: Leto's Peace is structured like Plato's Republic. Leto II as philosopher-king, Fish Speakers as the guardian class, and everyone else as workers/producers.

Assuming the comparison is apt (I'll be reading the Republic again in a few months, most likely, so I can check up on it) do you take this to mean that Plato himself was satirizing the notion of a good republic in his dialogue just as Leto II was deliberately satirizing bad government?

Hmm, never thought of Leto's 3500 year reign as a polictal pun. Or have I missed your point?

inhuien wrote:Hmm, never thought of Leto's 3500 year reign as a polictal pun. Or have I missed your point?

Pun? He created the most oppressive government possible in order to guarantee that no one like him could control all of humanity ever again. The point of his reign was to teach the universe a lesson their bones would remember about how awful things were under him. It was certainly not an attempt to demonstrate how good government should operate. It was an example of how not to govern, which makes it a satire of itself. My question was whether, likewise, Plato was deliberately describing the worst possible government in order to make a point.

inhuien wrote:Hmm, never thought of Leto's 3500 year reign as a polictal pun. Or have I missed your point?

Pun? He created the most oppressive government possible in order to guarantee that no one like him could control all of humanity ever again. The point of his reign was to teach the universe a lesson their bones would remember about how awful things were under him. It was certainly not an attempt to demonstrate how good government should operate. It was an example of how not to govern, which makes it a satire of itself. My question was whether, likewise, Plato was deliberately describing the worst possible government in order to make a point.

xcalibur wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but it just occurred to me: Leto's Peace is structured like Plato's Republic. Leto II as philosopher-king, Fish Speakers as the guardian class, and everyone else as workers/producers.

Assuming the comparison is apt (I'll be reading the Republic again in a few months, most likely, so I can check up on it) do you take this to mean that Plato himself was satirizing the notion of a good republic in his dialogue just as Leto II was deliberately satirizing bad government?

it's debatable. was the Republic an earnest attempt at conceiving of an ideal society? or was it meant as a warning against idealism? personally I don't think it was satire, even if it tread onto unrealistic and dangerous ground. the overall argument is complex and rational, and it has excellent ideas that have shaped philosophy ever since (allegory of the cave, etc).

while I'm fascinated with the ideas of the Republic, I'm also wary of utopias. In history, most utopian efforts have resulted in dystopia (and that to a nightmarish extent). even if all goes well, the problem I have is with stasis. I believe societies should be continuously growing and changing. Remaining stable in a certain form, even a very good one, creates risks. what if the status quo is broken, and the efficient utopia can't adapt to a new situation? the result is breakdown and chaos (like the Famine Times and Scattering).

the comparison is correct, in fact it's an unexpected parallel. Plato's Republic aims to build a utopia, while Leto II builds a "utopia" (or very unusual dystopia) in order to ensure that massive change happens afterward and humanity's survival is secured. What they have in common, aside from basic structure, is stability. both are designed to maintain their status quo for the greater good.

Wasn't sure in which thread to post this picture, but I thought it was neat. Never heard this quote from Honest Abe before, and after doing a bit of checking it seems to be a false attribution to him than began recently. But I've decided to pretend he said it anyhow.

“Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.”~Abraham Lincoln

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

Freakzilla wrote:“Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.”~Abraham Lincoln

Wow, never heard that one. I did some checking, though, and apparently the internet is getting to be a tough place to parse whether quotes are really accurate. It seems the one you cited was actually contained in a letter from the Reverend James Mitchell of Indiana, written to Lincoln. Crazy world.

Freakzilla wrote:“Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.”~Abraham Lincoln

Wow, never heard that one. I did some checking, though, and apparently the internet is getting to be a tough place to parse whether quotes are really accurate. It seems the one you cited was actually contained in a letter from the Reverend James Mitchell of Indiana, written to Lincoln. Crazy world.

Realy? I tried to check it out before I posted it but... oh well. I had heard a similar quote that day on the radio but I couldn't find it and that one came up.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

Here's one which I think is real. It was in A People's History of the United States:

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. ~ Abraham Lincoln

Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

SadisticCynic wrote:Here's one which I think is real. It was in A People's History of the United States:

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. ~ Abraham Lincoln

That's the one I was looking for.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman