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As there are strong indications that our brain works - at least in parts belonging to sensing - on quantum mechanical level (therewith some speculations that it works already as a quantum computer) - see R.Penrose, the emperors new mind -, and is highly adoptable and much more capable as any other human build logic, I sign what you have written. You probably nailed the problem with your discussion. We can get out the next day with a complete different opinion, while sensing exactly the same phenomenons.

By the way, you mentioned the headphone. I had yesterday a surprising result, while I played a digital over and w/o headphone. The headphone was a kind of cheap thing, and while I was jumping from the middle octave to one octave higher, my brain was expecting to sit on a complete different instrument, so much the sound characteristics was changed. Very funny, at the first glance I was thinking I don't like this piano. Using it over the build in speaker was then a quit normal experience w/o any none-regularities and with a nice sound.

"...Now, pv88 and McBuster have reported this special raspy sound. If its there, some trained musican should be able to hear it as well..."

pv88, ears, and their ability to hear, are not identical for the whole human population of Earth. Some resonances or interference patterns can be created in the ear itself, and anyway, hearing actually takes place in the brain. Also, though they are short, the nerves which conduct the sound information to the brain can influence what makes it to their destination. Additionally, there are some drugs (even OTC ones) that can make a problem for hearing, especially if they're taken in combination and the effects are added together.

It struck me that what you are describing sounds very like what some people hear in the early stages of hearing loss, or in a kind of tinnitus. Some cases of tinnitus are not a steady tone or buzz or clashing of gears--- though maybe most are--- but a shreddy, buzzing, rasping or crunching noise which is only heard when certain tones of sound are heard. How they're perceived also depends on how loud the sound is.

You might visit an audiologist to have your hearing evaluated, or do some online research to learn how you can protect your hearing for the long term. Anyway, it doesn't seem that this is the right keyboard for you, and you would be wise to undo the deal, if you can. If that's not possible, you might use the keyboard as a MIDI controller to control Ivory or another outboard sound.

If you can narrow it down to certain frequencies which bother you (they might be among the upper partials; even ultrasonic or subsonic sound energy can trigger an effect in the hearing), you might see if a notch filter or comb filter gives you relief. Some people hear these effects when playing acoustic piano. It's not something that a tuner can fix or that changing the room's acoustics can help, and of course they typically accuse the piano. But, the solution is: a different model of piano.

@Jeff,

I still continue to hear the raspy /buzzing sounds on the CA95:

Everything you have mentioned above makes sense to me as I think that the tinnitus I have (which is a very high pitched ringing sound) may very well be the culprit as to why I am hearing the raspy piano tones. It appears to be most noticeable when the volume is set higher on the piano, as at lower volumes it is not quite as pronounced and things are smoothed out a bit when using the "Mellow Grand" presets and the "Mellow 1 & 2" voicing settings. This metallic sound is somewhat grating to the ears, but only with a given range of notes that are mostly above middle C.

This definitely has me concerned now (as for my ears / hearing) as I may look into seeing an ear doctor to see if my current tinnitus might be triggering the issue with sounds I am hearing.

Could it be that I am losing my hearing, or, is it just that the metallic sounds of only the Kawai CA95 sound "raspy" to me, whereas another digital might not sound the same way?

"...Now, pv88 and McBuster have reported this special raspy sound. If its there, some trained musican should be able to hear it as well..."

pv88, ears, and their ability to hear, are not identical for the whole human population of Earth. Some resonances or interference patterns can be created in the ear itself, and anyway, hearing actually takes place in the brain. Also, though they are short, the nerves which conduct the sound information to the brain can influence what makes it to their destination. Additionally, there are some drugs (even OTC ones) that can make a problem for hearing, especially if they're taken in combination and the effects are added together.

It struck me that what you are describing sounds very like what some people hear in the early stages of hearing loss, or in a kind of tinnitus. Some cases of tinnitus are not a steady tone or buzz or clashing of gears--- though maybe most are--- but a shreddy, buzzing, rasping or crunching noise which is only heard when certain tones of sound are heard. How they're perceived also depends on how loud the sound is.

You might visit an audiologist to have your hearing evaluated, or do some online research to learn how you can protect your hearing for the long term. Anyway, it doesn't seem that this is the right keyboard for you, and you would be wise to undo the deal, if you can. If that's not possible, you might use the keyboard as a MIDI controller to control Ivory or another outboard sound.

If you can narrow it down to certain frequencies which bother you (they might be among the upper partials; even ultrasonic or subsonic sound energy can trigger an effect in the hearing), you might see if a notch filter or comb filter gives you relief. Some people hear these effects when playing acoustic piano. It's not something that a tuner can fix or that changing the room's acoustics can help, and of course they typically accuse the piano. But, the solution is: a different model of piano.

@Jeff,

I still continue to hear the raspy /buzzing sounds on the CA95:

Everything you have mentioned above makes sense to me as I think that the tinnitus I have (which is a very high pitched ringing sound) may very well be the culprit as to why I am hearing the raspy piano tones. It appears to be most noticeable when the volume is set higher on the piano, as at lower volumes it is not quite as pronounced and things are smoothed out a bit when using the "Mellow Grand" presets and the "Mellow 1 & 2" voicing settings. This metallic sound is somewhat grating to the ears, but only with a given range of notes that are mostly above middle C.

This definitely has me concerned now (as for my ears / hearing) as I may look into seeing an ear doctor to see if my current tinnitus might be triggering the issue with sounds I am hearing.

Could it be that I am losing my hearing, or, is it just that the metallic sounds of only the Kawai CA95 sound "raspy" to me, whereas another digital might not sound the same way?

PV, why don't you record the offending notes, along with good notes around them, and let us be the judge of how raspy it is?

Thanks for your suggestion in making a recording, as I will try to do that here, shortly. Will record the CA95 with a stereo audio cable into Audacity. Perhaps it will be of some help to determine exactly what it is that I am hearing.

And, there is no doubt that I am perceiving the same raspy sounds through headphones, as well as the built-in soundboard speaker system.

Have used the default "Concert Grand" piano sound with volume set at three increments (or, dots) on the CA95. Recorded the audio directly into "Audacity" with a stereo audio cable. Here is what was played:

1) A scale from C to C played legato, starting at one octave below middle C and going to one octave higher than middle C, and, back to the low C.

Each white key is struck ONE time, and, every black key is struck THREE times to emphasize the black key resonance.

Have determined that I hear more of the raspy / buzzing sound mainly on the black keys, not the white keys.

2) Two sets of all black key arpeggios, the first set is played without the sustain pedal, and, the second set is played with pedal.

3) A set of all black key staccato notes.

Isn't it relatively easy to hear this raspy / buzzing quality in the black keys?

What is really odd is that I tend to hear the raspy quality more when playing through the speakers / soundboard as compared with the headphones. It is only when I push the volume above three-quarters maximum then the buzzing almost fades out, or, away.

However, the piano is almost too loud (for my ears) at close to maximum volume, so I have to use lower settings, however, anything around 50% volume (or, less) is where the fuzziness is most pronounced.

Must be due to my tinnitus (i.e., ringing in the ears), as I will have to get checked out and see if I might have developed some hearing loss over the years. Need to try and find a hearing specialist.

Also, would like for some other folks to listen to the test recording to see what can be determined.

Have also determined that the overall clarity and harmonic resonance (including decay) appears to be far better with every piano sound that is designated with "2" as compared with the first (or, original) sound.

"Concert Grand 2" would definitely be my choice in the first movement of Beethoven's "Moonlight" sonata, since the original "Concert Grand" sound does not have as full a sustain when striking the first g-sharp melody note in the sonata, as I have compared them directly.

Just in striking that solo g-sharp melody note repeatedly (by itself) one can hear the improved resonance and decay (length of sustain) in the "Concert Grand 2" preset as compared to "Concert Grand."

I thought the newer "Concert Grand" sound was supposed to be the improved one, not the other way around?

Test this for yourself when striking the g-sharp melody note (in the sonata) as "2" is better than "1."

pv88, there are a variety of different piano tones, each with their own character. If you happen to prefer 'Concert Grand 2' over 'Concert Grand', that's fine. You may also wish to use the 'User Memory' feature ('Basic Settings' menu) to store your preferred piano sound so that it is selected automatically when turning the instrument on.

pv88, I guess, I recognize, what you are hearing. One note has a very distinct metallic sound. Some other also, but to a lower extend. On an acoustic I would say, that is easily cured by your piano technician. Voicing these tones to a similar level can be easily done.

James, I know you are not a technician, but maybe you could ask your colleagues: Could it be, that on this particular key, the sensor reacts differently and the tone is created with more overtones as it would have been hit harder?

@pv88: For picky ears, I found pianoteq to be the best customizable piano software available. I like the sound of the new D in the Version 4. And you can customize it on a note by note level. This is not an cheap solution, though, as you need the Pro version for all possibilities.

I am glad to hear that at least one other person can make out what it is I am hearing, although for me it is far more pronounced, as this may be due to the tinnitus (ringing in the ears) that I have had since childhood.

I listened to the recording. Richard, I think I have a similar tinnitus problem to you - in low ambient noise conditions I have a very high pitched ringing and have had it all my life - it's not got better or worse. I don't think that has anything to do with it.

What I hear is the sound of the Kawai sampling, ie, the original piano is what you are hearing. For what it's worth whilst the resolution or memory size might be greater on the CA-95, this sounds identical to my MP10 - it's clearly the same source piano and I'd put money on it being the same sampling session. It's just the way the Kawai DPs sound.

I can certainly hear a metallic stringy sound, more prominent in some black notes.

A lot of DP's have piano voices with similar metal tones, the Roland SN being another example.

I think it's a personal like or dislike thing. I really don't like the Roland SN when sustained and that put me off purchasing a FP7F. This probably would not be my preference of voice on the 95 but it would suit certain types of music.

I listened to the recording. Richard, I think I have a similar tinnitus problem to you - in low ambient noise conditions I have a very high pitched ringing and have had it all my life - it's not got better or worse. I don't think that has anything to do with it.

What I hear is the sound of the Kawai sampling, ie, the original piano is what you are hearing. For what it's worth whilst the resolution or memory size might be greater on the CA-95, this sounds identical to my MP10 - it's clearly the same source piano and I'd put money on it being the same sampling session. It's just the way the Kawai DPs sound.

Steve,

Yes, my tinnitus is exactly like what you have mentioned having yourself, as it hasn't really changed one way or the other. It can be more noticeable when things get to be very quiet, so I leave an air purifier running at night in which the fan pretty much masks the ringing to where you don't notice it.

As for the original "Concert Grand" piano sound on the CA95, it just doesn't seem to have the clarity and overall resonance that "Concert Grand 2" does, as it sounds far less defined and not as clear.

With "Concert Grand 2" the highest treble notes are open and spacious, and the mid-range has full tones, along with a more realistic sounding bass. All the other # "2" presets are similar.

Honestly, listening to your samples, for my ears it sounds as if you just hit the black keys harder (i.e. faster) than the white keys - and the instrument is responding to this in as it is supposed to.

It's good we have been provided with an MP3 file in order to be able to make a judgement.To me there is nothing wrong with this CA95. It is just the way pianos can sound. Through the samples we have to deal with the sound of metal strings. One may not like the sound of a particular piano, but there is nothing wrong.Now we could start a discussion about shortcomings of my hearing, LOL.What I mean is: people prefer different piano sounds, so don't worry about your ears.

For me it is just the same what I've heard on the "real" CA95. The sound is not very sterile (perhaps somewhat less so as with some other digital instruments), but couldn't find anything bad. The attack phase is with somewhat airy noise (not metallic), but I think it is only due to the noises from hammer head impact captured by the sampling process.

Would be interesting I think for yourself in the first line, if it is instrument-specific.

Sometimes I get tired from a specific instruments because of its mere sound character - the most so from my old acoustic vertical, it has much different resonances and noises and a quite loud instrument - or from harpsichords sharp overtones.

pv88, in answer to your question about whether the raspy, metallic quality of the notes which are bothering you, are causing your tinnitus to get worse... I would have to say that it seems doubtful, though I can't say for sure. My understanding of what makes tinnitus worse, or of what exposes us to the danger of hearing impairment, is not the tonal quality of sound, but the combination of the loudness, and the length of time we're exposed to it. There are tables one can look up online--- OSHA has one, for example--- that give these figures, which are intended to be safety guidelines for permissible workplace exposure, for what they consider to be an average person. That mythical "average guy."

My personal experience is, that now that I have some tinnitus, I'm not "average" anymore, and I have less ability to tolerate both the loud dB levels... and the length of time I can listen, before my tinnitus acts up, is a LOT less than the tables say. I've had to stop subscribing to our local solo piano concert series because I just can't take the concert D in the small hall without having my ears buzz for a month. I was not very happy about it, but I wanted to keep on hearing, so... (Well, they do have some concerts in a much bigger hall, and that seems ok... if you're ok with being seated a mile away from Garrick Ohlssen, instead of 30 feet.)

It could be true that some frequencies in the bundle of tones you hear as 'raspy,' are frequencies your ears are more sensitive to, and so they bother you more. I forget the technical name this is called, but one backwards-seeming feature of early hearing loss is, not that you hear less well, but that things sound hyper-loud. One way I hear this, is that the tinnitus doesn't sound like a high-pitched tone anymore, but that the notes sound shredded up, and the louder the sound, the more the tone shreds and takes on this very odd quality, as if somebody was turning a mod wheel--- except it's the real AP and the naked ear. And it is known that different frequencies are detected by different parts of the inner ear--- tiny little hairs that stimulate nerve endings; there are many of them, so that 'rasp' could bother some but not all.

The only way you can fix it is, turn down the volume. Sometimes tweaking the EQ settings can get you there. To me, it's a danger sign to stop listening for awhile and let my ears rest.

30% of all Americans have some degree of hearing impairment. And that tinnitus can be so bad for some people, that they're totally miserable; some have even committed suicide. The audiologists only advice is, "Get used to it; learn to ignore it; try a white noise background to see if that helps; guard your hearing against overloud sounds." And, they can tell you how much hearing loss you have, and in what frequencies (usually the higher ones).

There's so much suffering over this, it would be really great if research could turn up some treatments. When I have a free half-hour, I'll do the look-ups again and post a page with some of the more useful links to information. Many musicians have some difficulties with this (not just keyboardists, and not just old people--- or rockers). The list of drugs that aggravate the ear (ototoxic is the name) given in the Physicians' Desk Reference was an eye-opener for me, and avoiding those drugs is one thing you might be able to do to help yourself. Any doctor or library will have this book, and the list was available online a few years ago. But avoiding the high sound pressure measured in decibels, and shortening the length of exposure time--- that's the kernel of it. I wish there was more to tell.

You're over-kind in describing me as an 'expert.' I'm not a doc or audiologist; I've just done some research which anyone could do, to try to help myself.

I think I hear it too, depending on the head phone I use more or less eminent. I think with the cheaper headphone used at the dealer I wouldn't here it at all....and hopefully it is the same I here than you. I would me restrain from buying now I know. It is certainly within the sample. To hear the original acoustic would be great for comparison. Wish you that you find a workaround or Kawai will provide an update.

I tried it to hear out with my Sennheiser HD650 - a very HQ headphones.Did hear nothing.

But I am 54 Ys old. my hearing frequency limit is around 12 kHZ.

Could some of you who are hearing this and percieve it as a problem analyse it perhaps with a high-pass filter? Perhaps some high frequency overtones and/or noises are disturbing you. (I couldn't hear anything, of course)

Or could it be it possible, that what pv88 described as "raspy metallic sound" is the same what I described as "some airy noise in attack"? Attila

Although I have not been following this thread up until now and just jumped in, I thank you all for some much insight info on hearing impairments that can influence your judgement. I was currently in the same boat / going down a similar path as pv88 , because I hear overtones and such being added to certain note combinations (ES7). Now I wonder very much if it isn't just my hearing that's fooling me and that there is nothing wrong with the amp system (introducing unwanted harmonics ). If anyone's interested in some sound samples , pm me. Then I know for sure if its just me / my ears or if its really in the sound itself.

Interesting thread. I think that when you know for sure it's your own hearing that's introducing certain unwanted sounds, that is bad enough , but it will perhaps let you enjoy the DP more, because you know then its not the instrument that is faulty. Saves a lot of time and frustration...J

Hi everybody, I have just read through this thread and I understand about the metalic noise you hear,I think it has something to do with the harmonic imaging.I used to have the kawai ex and it had the same sound problem, it was a little to metalic and a little ringy. I now have the es7 and it still has a little bit of the metalic ring to it ,but by eqing it properly ,putting the sound into melow 1 and putting the touch on heavy I can get a very nice sound out of the concert grand one piano which is my favorite. The room accoustics and humidity level of the room also probably factor into the sound comming through the speakers, I also turn the reverb off,if I use reverb I,ll use room. Im kind of a computer idiot and my next task is to figure out how to download the newest fixes for the pedal and the rhtym section loudness.

@pianomike , that's an interesting thought. It could indeed be the way that PHI works and that some harmonics are just a bit exaggerated with certain note combinations and are thus part of the character that the Kawai DP line has in general. Interesting ! of course it will have different effects between HI-XL, PHI and UPHI algorithms , but some of all these "I hear this and that strange harmonics and sounds" may indeed be the Kawai processing just doing its job.

Perhaps James can shine a light on this if that could indeed be the case for many of the phenomenon we experience. Would be a relief and end of search for other causes ...

Than it will be either you like and can live with it , or you don't . J

JFP, The first Kawai I had was an es-x I misprinted an put ex, Im not sure but I think it was Kawais first electonic digital with harmonic imaging,and I do think thats just the way they sound but the es7 definetly sounds better than the es-x.