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Finally some concrete details from BMW on the next generation M3/M4! What may be interpreted as bad news is the horsepower output from the 3.0 liter inline-6 S55 twin turbo (single scroll turbo) motor is 'only' 430 horses. The torque figure is at 369 pound-feet. Not exactly a powerhouse of a motor or a torque monster but the good news is that this powerplant is mated to a chassis that will weigh about 3306 pounds or 1500 kilograms.

A curb weight of 3306 pounds makes the F80 M3 / F82 M4 lighter than both previous generation M3 vehicles the E46 and E9X. It seems AutoBild got the specifications correct for the most part when they leaked them last month although horsepower is up from their claimed 416. If BMW does a Competition Package with the new M3 (chances are they will as fanboys will raise hell about the C63 out-muscling the M3 and the tiny increase over the E9X) the power, curb weight, torque, and dual clutch transmission will make for a package likely capable of high 11's in the 1/4 mile out of the box.

What is the redline of the motor? A good question. BMW has not officially confirmed the redline although they claim the new motor is high revving. Keep in mind BMW also made this claim about the S63TU V8 under the hood of the M5 and M aficionados hardly refer to that stump puller as a high revver.

AutoBild claimed 7800 rpm although that may be overly optimistic. Current reports place the redline somewhere between 7500 to 7800 rpm. BMW has yet to confirm the exact number but says it is 'over 7500 rpm.' How much over they do not say.

The motor has a closed deck design meaning it is not based on the N54 as some people speculated (N54 fanboys). The motor does have Valvetronic. The block is seemingly a brand new design. The power is sent to a carbon fiber driveshaft.

BMW also confirmed the manual transmission option meaning Autoblog F'd up royally with their report stating the M3/M4 would not have a manual transmission. Further details to come but what is concrete as of right now are the horsepower, torque, transmission, and curb weight figures. Additionally, both the sedan and the coupe will have carbon fiber roofs. BMW press release and photos below.

1. The new BMW M3 Sedan and new BMW M4 Coupe:
Innovative engine technology and a focus on lightweight design.

The launch of the new BMW M3 Sedan and new BMW M4 Coupe sees BMW M GmbH revealing an all-new interpretation of the high-performance sports car – and carrying the BMW M philosophy over into the fifth generation of the M3. More than 40,000 examples of the fourth-generation BMW M3 Coupe were built, and now the BMW M4 Coupe is poised to continue this history of success. The "M4" badge is a reference to the model series that provides the basis for the new M model. And for the first time, the Coupe will be introduced at the same time as the four-door variant, which logic dictates will be christened the BMW M3.

"Four generations of the BMW M3 have blended motor sport genes and uncompromised everyday usability within an emotionally rich overall concept;" explains Dr Friedrich Nitschke, President BMW M GmbH. "The BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe represent an ongoing commitment to this philosophy. The engine is the heart of every M model, and the example fitted in the two new cars combines the virtues of a high-revving naturally aspirated unit with the strengths of turbocharger technology. An all-embracing lightweight design concept keeps the cars' weight to just under 1,500 kilograms. The BMW M3 and BMW M4 take motor sport technology from the track to the road, and thousands of laps of the legendary Nürburgring Nordschleife – the world's most demanding race track – have readied the new models for that transition. Meticulous and passion-fuelled development work has underpinned the creation of two high-performance sports cars that set new standards in terms of overall concept, precision and agility."

The high-revving six-cylinder in-line engine with BMW M TwinPower Turbo technology newly developed for the new BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe produces maximum output of approximately 430 hp. Its peak torque soars far beyond 500 Newton metres (369 lb-ft), outstripping the figures recorded by the outgoing BMW M3 by well over 30 per cent. And yet the engine also achieves a reduction in fuel consumption and emissions of around 25 per cent. The weight of the cars has been reduced to just under 1,500 kilograms, which helps to ensure outstanding driving dynamics and exceptional efficiency.

2. The balance of the overall concept:
A blend of elements working in perfect harmony delivers outstanding performance, precision and agility.

The new BMW M3 Sedan and new BMW M4 Coupe share a low-slung and broad-set, yet finely balanced, stance on the road, highlighting the emphasis on performance capability in the emotional development of M design. Large air intakes at the front end, exposed carbon-fibre-reinforced plastic (CFRP) components and the diffuser at the muscular rear end are far from mere design flourishes; they also fulfil functional roles in terms of aerodynamics, cooling and weight saving.

Numerous aerodynamics measures integrated into all areas of the body.The aerodynamics concept of BMW M GmbH models has always been one of the key elements in their development. The engineers need to channel the air around the car to create the best possible platform for dynamic excellence, while also ensuring the engine, powertrain and brakes receive the requisite cooling given the significant loads they are operating under. But at the same time, the cars should also have a good Cd – an indicator of impressive efficiency at higher speeds, in particular.

Details such as the powerfully formed front apron, smooth underbody and clearly defined Gurney spoiler lip at the rear of the M3 Sedan (or integrated spoiler lip at the rear of the BMW M4 Coupe) reduce lift by an equal degree at the front and rear axle and produce optimum handling attributes. These examples underline in familiar fashion the success of M engineers in reconciling the requirements of everyday use with the demands of action on the race track. Elements like the Air Curtain and M gills with integrated Air Breather rearwards of the front wheels minimise turbulence in the front wheel arches. And, together with the smoothly sculpted exterior mirrors, they are also highly distinctive design features of the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe.

Sophisticated cooling concept for maximum performance.The exceptional performance potential of the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe places extremely exacting demands on temperature management in the engine and peripheral assemblies. In order to ensure optimum operating temperatures in everyday use, on short journeys around town and on the race track, the BMW M GmbH engineers have developed an extremely effective cooling system. For example, alongside the two ultra-dynamic turbocharger units, the air intake system of the six-cylinder engine also includes an indirect intercooler to cool the intake air, maximising charge pressure and engine output. As well as a main radiator, the track-ready cooling concept also comprises additional radiators for the high- and low-temperature water circuits, turbocharger and transmission oil. These ensure a consistent temperature balance and therefore unrestricted performance during hard driving. An additional electric coolant pump cools the turbocharger bearing mounts when the car is stationary.

The powertrain gains from a wide variety of motor sport technologies.The many years of experience in motor sport clocked up by the BMW M engineers also make their presence felt in the construction of the powertrain for the new BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe. For example, the engine's impressive torque is sent on its way by a forged crankshaft with high torsional rigidity, whose low weight also allows a significant reduction in rotating mass. The crankshaft therefore helps to optimise the engine's responsiveness and acceleration and makes an important contribution to its high-revving character.

The engine sends its power to the wheels through a six-speed manual gearbox as standard. This gearbox is significantly more compact than its predecessor and 12 kilograms lighter, allowing it to assist the car's optimum – virtually 50:50 – weight distribution. As a means of increasing shift comfort, the manual gearbox uses innovative new carbon friction linings in its synchroniser rings. Dry sump lubrication provides an efficient supply of oil to all parts of the gearbox. The new gearbox also works a lot more quietly than before and blips the throttle on downshifts – previously a feature reserved for the M Double Clutch Transmission. This engagement speed control function helps to enhance stability and was originally developed by motor sport engineers.

Seven-speed M Double Clutch Transmission with Launch Control.The optional seven-speed M Double Clutch Transmission with DriveLogic takes a very special route to combining the apparently conflicting values of absolute sports performance and comfort. As well as changing gear automatically, in manual mode the transmission enables ultra-fast gear changes with no interruption in the flow of power. The integrated Launch Control function ensures optimum sprinting performance off the line, producing acceleration figures that would be out of range with the manual gearbox. The M Double Clutch Transmission also offers drivers extra functions, such as selectable modes which make the BMW M3 and BMW M4 more comfortable, easier on fuel or even sportier. The extra gear over the manual gearbox allows more tightly spaced ratios – and delivers the positive effects on performance and efficiency you would expect as a result.

The material properties of carbon have allowed the engineers to follow a fundamentally new approach in the manufacture of the drive shaft. This component feeds the engine's torque from the gearbox to the rear differential and works under extremely heavy loads – especially in high-performance vehicles. The impressive stiffness and low weight of CFRP as a material allow the drive shaft to be constructed as a single-piece unit with no centre bearing. As well as a weight saving of 40 per cent over its predecessor, this leads to a reduction in rotating masses and, in turn, to sharper responses to movements of the accelerator, combined with enhanced dynamics.

Another feature that adds fresh polish to the dynamic repertoire of the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe is the Active M Differential. Unlike the manual system used by the outgoing BMW M3, here an electric actuator constantly varies the locking effect, as required. That enables better traction, the adjustability of the car is improved, and understeer coming out of corners is dialled out to impressive effect. M Dynamic Mode – a subfunction of the Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) system – quenches the thirst of enthusiastic drivers for keen dynamics. While DSC intervenes as required to counteract understeer and oversteer, M Dynamic Mode allows greater wheel slip and therefore easy drifting. Owners with a taste for sporty and dynamic driving will appreciate this breadth to the cars' handling, although DSC will still step in if the car ventures over the limits – unless it is switched off completely. Whichever setting the driver chooses, he or she remains responsible for the car's stability.

Aluminium suspension elements ensure sharper dynamics.The core expertise of BMW M GmbH resides in creating cars that offer impressive steering precision, on-the-limit adjustability, agility and driving feeling, together with unbeatable traction and outstanding directional stability – all without neglecting everyday usability. In order to blend these attributes with the significantly increased performance capability of the new BMW M3 Sedan and new BMW M4 Coupe, the axles of the outgoing BMW M3 have undergone further development and all relevant components have been newly designed or constructed.

Here again, low weight and a high level of structural rigidity are essential ingredients in ensuring the cars provide an ultra-dynamic driving experience. In the double-joint spring strut front axle alone, the use of a lightweight aluminium construction for components such as control arms, wheel carriers and axle subframes saves five kilograms over a conventional steel design.

Play-free ball joints and elastomer bearings developed specially for the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe ensure an optimum and direct transfer of forces both laterally and longitudinally. An aluminium stiffening plate, CFRP front strut brace and additional bolted joints between the axle subframe and the body sills all help to increase the rigidity of the front structure.

Also lighter than the construction in the outgoing BMW M3 is the new five- link rear axle. All the control arms and wheel carriers are manufactured using forged aluminium, which reduces the unsprung masses of the wheel-locating components by around three kilograms compared with the previous model generation. The rigid connection between the rear axle subframe and the body – without the use of elastic rubber elements – is borrowed from motor sport and serves to further improve wheel location and therefore directional stability.

The development of the tyres for the cars was incorporated from the outset into the construction process for the axles. For high-performance sports cars like the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe, in particular, steering feel and precision are the foremost considerations in the development of tyres for the front axle, alongside lateral stability and braking forces. At the rear axle, meanwhile, traction, lateral stability and directional stability take centre stage. For this reason, both cars will leave the factory on low-weight forged wheels with mixed-size tyres. The specially developed forged wheels make a significant contribution to the reduction in the cars' unsprung masses and, in turn, to the optimisation of dynamic qualities and efficiency.

Electric Power Steering with three settings.The electromechanical steering system used in the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe is a new development from BMW M GmbH. It has been tuned specially to assist the cause of dynamic driving and offers the gifts of direct steering feeling and precise feedback. The integrated Servotronic function electronically adjusts the level of steering assistance according to the car's speed, providing optimum steering characteristics at all speeds. The steering for the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe also offers the driver three steering characteristics as standard, which can be selected at the touch of a button. COMFORT, SPORT and SPORT+ modes allow the level of steering assistance to be adapted to suit the situation at hand and the driver's personal tastes.

The optional Adaptive M suspension likewise comes with COMFORT, SPORT and SPORT+ modes, enabling the driver to choose between a more comfortable damper setting for motorway driving, for example, a stiffer set-up for dynamic driving on country roads, and a third option that minimises wheel movements and maximises dynamic performance for use on the track.

With their supreme dynamic attributes in mind, the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe also come as standard with BMW M compound brakes boasting impressive feel, outstanding stopping power and high resistance to fade. Far lighter than conventional equivalents, these brakes contribute to a substantial reduction in unsprung masses and therefore help to enhance dynamic performance. Even lighter BMW M carbon ceramic brakes can also be specified as an option, their further optimised performance attributes equipping them even more effectively for track use.

3. New six-cylinder in-line engine:
High-revving, turbocharged engine combines the best of both worlds.

The new BMW M3 Sedan and new BMW M4 Coupe from BMW M GmbH see a return to a six-in-line engine configuration, as used on the second and third generations of this iconic sports car. The new turbocharged unit, which can develop more than 7,500 rpm, combines the best of both worlds – on the one hand a high-revving design for instant response, linear power delivery over a wide engine speed range and an unmistakable and characterful engine note, and on the other hand BMW TwinPower Turbo technology for maximised torque over a broad rpm range. A further hallmark of this engine is its outstanding efficiency.

The new engine sees a slight power upgrade over the previous V8 to approximately 430 hp, while peak torque has been increased by well over 30 per cent to substantially more than 500 Newton metres, and is maintained over a very wide rev band. The new powerplant also boasts excellent fuel consumption, with an improvement of more than 25 per cent over the previous model's figures, while emissions are already EU6-compliant.

The BMW M TwinPower Turbo technology comprises two mono-scroll turbochargers, High Precision Direct Injection, VALVETRONIC variable valve timing and Double-VANOS seamlessly variable camshaft timing. The variable valve and camshaft timing provide fully variable control of intake valve lift. This allows the engine to deliver its power smoothly and efficiently, resulting in lower fuel consumption and emissions. At the same time, throttle response is even sharper than before.

The six-cylinder engine features a closed-deck crankcase design, which increases rigidity and allows cylinder pressures to be increased for maximised power output. And instead of liners, the cylinder bores feature a twin-wire arc-sprayed coating, which results in a significant reduction in engine weight.

A further technical highlight is the forged, torsionally rigid crankshaft which, as well as providing increased torque-carrying capacity, is also lighter in weight. Its reduced rotating masses also improve throttle response and acceleration.

Track-ready cooling system and engine oil supply for outstanding performance.The exceptional performance of the BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe also demands an exceptionally sophisticated thermal management system for the engine and ancillary units. To ensure optimal operating temperatures both in short everyday trips around town and also when the vehicle is being driven flat out on the track, the M GmbH engineers developed a highly efficient cooling system, comprising a main radiator plus additional radiators for the high- and low-temperature circuits, turbocharger and transmission, while a temperature-stabilising electric water pump ensures that the engine can develop its full performance at all times.

The engine oil supply system, too, reflects the extensive motor sport experience of BMW M GmbH. The low-weight magnesium oil sump, for example, features a special cover to limit movement of the oil under the effects of strong dynamic lateral acceleration. Under extreme longitudinal acceleration and deceleration, an oil extraction pump and a sophisticated oil return system situated close to the turbocharger likewise help to maintain uninterrupted oil circulation. Oil is therefore supplied continuously to all engine components in all driving situations – whether in everyday motoring or during hard driving on the track.

An engine sound in keeping with the motor sport-level performance of the BMW M3 and BMW M4 is provided by an innovative flap arrangement in the twin-pipe exhaust system. The electrically controlled flaps just before the rear silencer minimise exhaust back-pressure and produce a BMW M sound which is striking and unmistakable over the entire engine speed range, as well as giving precise feedback on engine load.

Intelligent lightweight design was a top priority in the development of the BMW M3 and BMW M4. The goal was to minimise kerb weight in order to give both models outstanding driving dynamics and exemplary efficiency. These measures have delivered impressive results. The kerb weight of the BMW M4 has been reduced to less than 1,500 kilograms, which means the new model is now around 80 kilograms lighter than a comparably equipped predecessor model – with benefits for driving dynamics and fuel consumption as well.

BMW M3 Sedan also gets CFRP roof for first the time.On the outgoing models, the CFRP roof was confined to the Coupe version. Now, for the first time, the four-door BMW M3 will also include this striking design and functional feature. The CFRP roof brings weight savings of five kilograms in the case of the BMW M3 Sedan and more than six in the case of the BMW M4 Coupe. It also lowers the vehicle's centre of gravity, which has a positive impact on driving dynamics.

On the M4 Coupe, the contoured roofline with the central Gurney bubble continues into the boot lid, and emphasises the even sportier personality of the new model. The newly developed boot lid of this model not only provides extremely effective tail end styling but at the same time its geometry is precisely tailored for optimised aerodynamics, while the use of carbon fibre and plastics provides additional weight savings.

The new BMW M3 Sedan and new BMW M4 Coupe also feature a CFRP propeller shaft. CFRP's high rigidity and low weight mean that the drive shaft can be produced as a single-piece component without a centre bearing. This provides 40 per cent weight savings over the previous model, and the reduction in rotating masses results in sharper throttle response. The use of carbon in these models is a reminder that BMW is a global leader in high- strength, lightweight CFRP construction, and that it was BMW who brought out the first mass-production vehicle with a body consisting entirely of this material – the innovative BMW i3.

The CFRP strut brace in the engine compartment is a further example of how all weight-saving measures on these vehicles have also been tailored to the improvement of driving dynamics. Weighing only 1.5 kilograms, the strut brace offers superior rigidity to a comparable aluminium component, and plays a key part in the excellent steering response and precision of both vehicles.

5. DTM support for the development process:
Testing at the Nürburgring with Bruno Spengler and Timo Glock.

In the development of the new BMW M3 Sedan and new BMW M4 Coupe, the BMW M engineers could count not only on track-honed technologies, but also on the driving talent of experienced racers. For example, BMW works drivers Bruno Spengler and Timo Glock took part in extensive testing and set- up runs on the Nürburgring-Nordschleife circuit, focusing on assessment of the cars' suspension, tyres and all elements of the powertrain. After taking the prototypes for a run-out over the legendary and highly demanding circuit, the two professional racing drivers were able to give the BMW M development team some valuable feedback.

"I'm proud to have made a contribution to the set-up work on these two cars," explained reigning DTM champion Spengler. "The development work may not be totally completed yet, but the driving experience is already sensational. The suspension has a very sporty set-up, the feedback from the front axle is extremely direct and the grip at the rear axle is phenomenal. The engine is impressive, too. The power is right there, even at low rpm, and you can sense that you'll be able to access the output and torque over an extremely wide rev band. I'm looking forward to driving the cars again, but I'm even more excited about driving my first laps in a BMW M4 DTM."

Because efficiency leads to higher performance. You have to keep pushing the boundary of the system until its able to support wherever you are trying to take it. If they just ditched DI, it will never get better. Remember how $#@!ty fuel injection used to be back in the day? Should we go back to carburetors now?

Oh, no you are misunderstanding. I want a car I can abuse all day long and have no issues. All that I have required to do in the past 60k miles in my M3 was change the oil, filters, and plugs. Pads and tires of course - but my point is, the car was engineered to be abused - how an M3 should. On the other hand, cars with DI in America can't even run normally without problems - much less under continuous load. I don't want to take my M3 to get blasted with walnuts, that's ridiculous, and not worth my time.

Maybe they improved on it, but the issue as I understand it is our crappy fuels.

Yupp just like the M156 and the M159 slight changes probably. Just like a modded M156 makes more power than a stock M159 it should be a fun beast of a motor hopefully they can get the revs up a bit. The m157 is a beast but 6300 is pretty low its just relying on monster torque. The difference between m177 and m178 will probably be minimal (airbox, intake manifold, maybe cams) I doubt theyll go to a bigger turbo size which will be the main factor of how close they will be in terms of power.

*Edit - Just read your article and makes sense maybe the m177 will be in both c63/55 and base slc than their will be a big $ High perf. version in the top dog SLC. Probably will be a significant hardware difference. Still bet the M177 will be a monster its got a 33% displacement advantage on the S55. Similar to the advantage the m156 has to the S65 its going to be hard to make up without going bigger turbos

I don't know if I would call the M156 and M159 changes minor though. There are significant hardware differences that definitely amount to far more than software.

We'll have to see the M177 and M178 differences but the M178 differences may be even larger if there is a Black Series version of the car like with the SLS Black Series M159.

Regarding making up the difference, the S65 does it with revs. We'll see if the S55 can do that as well although I don't think we will see as large of an RPM difference between the S55 and M177 as we do between the S65 and M156. But the M159 proved Mercedes can rev high as well if they choose to.

"G-sensitive lubrication system. Given the 45Ëš cant of the cylinder banks and the M5’s cornering ability, special attention has been directed to ensuring natural return of oil to the main sump. There are two sumps, the main and larger one behind the front frame crossmember and a smaller one forward of the member; a baffle separates the two from each other in this “semi-dry-sump” system.

First, the mechanically driven main oil pump is a variable-volume type, an innovation also found on the N52 6-cylinder engine. By varying the output of its pump element according to engine oil pressure, the engineers have achieved a pump that always delivers sufficient pressure to lubricate this demanding engine, yet never pumps more oil than is necessary. Thus it contributes to the high power output, by requiring less power from the engine and doesn’t require a bypass to divert excess flow; this helps avoid excess oil temperatures and oil foaming.

There is also a recirculating pump that picks up oil from the small front oil sump and transfers it back to the main sump. Additionally, there is an electrically driven scavenging pump for each cylinder bank. In straight-ahead driving, these pumps pick up oil from the rear of the engine and return it to the sump. In hard cornering (0.6g or greater), the Dynamic Stability Control system’s lateral-g sensor switches magnetic valves to different pickup points in the cylinder heads and the oil pan that are closest to the outside of the curve. This system remains active even if the driver switches off DSC."

I don't know if I would call the M156 and M159 changes minor though. There are significant hardware differences that definitely amount to far more than software.

We'll have to see the M177 and M178 differences but the M178 differences may be even larger if there is a Black Series version of the car like with the SLS Black Series M159.

Regarding making up the difference, the S65 does it with revs. We'll see if the S55 can do that as well although I don't think we will see as large of an RPM difference between the S55 and M177 as we do between the S65 and M156. But the M159 proved Mercedes can rev high as well if they choose to.

Yes maybe minor wasnt the right word but when compared to a P31 M156 the difference is basically airbox, intake manifold, cams, and exhaust manifold things you can upgrade if you really wanted to. Its the whole package that sets it apart CF driveshaft, DCT with much shorter gearing than MCT, low curb weight with better weight distribution, dry sump, and SLS chassis puts in another league.

Yes the S65 certainly makes it up with revs and torque multiplication thru its long powerband and deep breathing v8 but that displacement advantage is very hard to make up. Even with its superior trans and lower curb weight a FBO N/A m3 stands no chance against a FBO C63 with the new MCT trans. Really a FBO M156 is a better comparison in power to a S85 if we just talk about the engine seperate from the car. The M3's trans and weight are its main advantage. If the W205 comes out with a DCT trans that can be taken out and aslong as they keep the weight relatively low it will be hard for the M to keep up. Regardless im a driver not a numbers fiend if it doesnt come in RWD the decision will be very easy when time comes.

Be interested to see times around the larger tracks (Nurburgring) then smaller tracks for the M4 and the C63 AMG and then see what is what.... the Mercs will win in a straight line more often then not and the BMW around a windy circuit

Yes maybe minor wasnt the right word but when compared to a P31 M156 the difference is basically airbox, intake manifold, cams, and exhaust manifold things you can upgrade if you really wanted to. Its the whole package that sets it apart CF driveshaft, DCT with much shorter gearing than MCT, low curb weight with better weight distribution, dry sump, and SLS chassis puts in another league.

Yes the S65 certainly makes it up with revs and torque multiplication thru its long powerband and deep breathing v8 but that displacement advantage is very hard to make up. Even with its superior trans and lower curb weight a FBO N/A m3 stands no chance against a FBO C63 with the new MCT trans. Really a FBO M156 is a better comparison in power to a S85 if we just talk about the engine seperate from the car. The M3's trans and weight are its main advantage. If the W205 comes out with a DCT trans that can be taken out and aslong as they keep the weight relatively low it will be hard for the M to keep up. Regardless im a driver not a numbers fiend if it doesnt come in RWD the decision will be very easy when time comes.

This is a very good post and I'd make many of the same points. I wouldn't be able to have this discussion on MBWorld as if I pointed out any of the things I did AMG fanboy's heads would start exploding and I'd get banned for not pledging allegiance to the correct cult in the correct spot.

The thing the P31 established though is that Mercedes did not just do a software change but internal hardware changes to the M156 to match the M159 forged internals. I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of that package which firmly placed the C63 ahead of the M3 performance wise essentially overcoming the revs, curb weight, and DCT. They just out-muscled it. BMW stood pat and acted like the P31 package didn't exist. Instead they released a competition edition that added spoilers and different paint colors so you could look like you were faster.

The P31 is the limit of what could be done as you can't change a W204 chassis into the SLS chassis. Of course, the SLS should always have the advantage considering price and positioning. The DCT by itself ensures that along with the curb weight.

The displacement advantage isn't as hard to make up as people think. The S54 is evidence of this and the S65 as well but that is only with forced induction. Once you take these motors and add some boost their hard earned gains in naturally aspirated form sparkle. It's the same thing that happens to a Gallardo when you add turbos. If the motor didn't have such good volumetric efficiency and such a high redline to begin with it would not become so potent.

In naturally aspirated form of course the S65 will never match the M156. Too big of a displacement gap. The M3's weight and DCT help but it's a never ending uphill battle. Yes, I most definitely agree it would take the S85 to match the M156/M159 in naturally aspirated form. From what we have seen the M159 puts out around 530 wheel in the Black Series so the S85 and M159 battle comes down to whomever wants to spend more money eeking out horses. The S85 would need to go to 5.7 liters though but since the S65 and S85 are such short stroke motors to begin with they can increase displacement quite a bit. Takes a bunch of money though.

The ace up MB's sleeve is Black Series. BMW has no answer although it may be coming. If Mercedes does a Black Series version of the C63 again it's game over. They can do 600 horsepower, 200 pounds less weight, sharper handling, etc., and knock the M3/M4 the F out.

It's going to be fun especially once the next gen RS4/RS5 get in the mix with their turbo V6 powerplants which will be previewed in the Macan.

Be interested to see times around the larger tracks (Nurburgring) then smaller tracks for the M4 and the C63 AMG and then see what is what.... the Mercs will win in a straight line more often then not and the BMW around a windy circuit

We don't know this yet. It's speculation but it's the general rule of thumb as of late. The Black Series cars have changed the Mercedes track prowess perception. BMW has no answers. Instead they have an i8. AMG should call the next gen C63 Black Series 'i8 an M3.'

The $$$ is a factor here also as a Black series AMG C63 is nearer the M5 price at 100k ponies and the M4 optioned will probably settle in at around $75-78.............. the 507 package is interesting in the MERC but my "ignorant" understanding is that is does NOT get the handling options of the black series...

so if we compare C63 AMG Blk Series vs M4 then a rev head willing to put out the extra $20-$25 will be a happy camper but I really think the smart fellas who sell on this website (BMS, AA, Evolve, Cobb) will manage to get us some added options for the M4 for less than $20K that will let this puppy get to 500 whp in a much lighter, better handling machine......... only time will tell

failing that we can all revert to buying an E9x M3 and boosting it with an S/C... which by mid 2014 should see 3 or 4 good proven "safe" options

anyway you slice it the automotive gods are smiling on us all..... many many luxury type options for $60-100k are here from C7 Vettes, the CLA AMG 45 to E63 AMG to M4, M5, RSx

The $$$ is a factor here also as a Black series AMG C63 is nearer the M5 price at 100k ponies and the M4 optioned will probably settle in at around $75-78.............. the 507 package is interesting in the MERC but my "ignorant" understanding is that is does NOT get the handling options of the black series...

Of course but the point is it exists so MB kind of always has the upper hand due to it. So if an MB owner wants a higher performance option he can get it. If a BMW owner wants a higher performance option than the standard M car, he needs to get an MB apparently.

You don't get why factory motors are rated at less power than tuned motors? Ok...

Some people said N54 based with some minor changes. Regardless, it's a very different design.

i never said i don't think they're underrated?

i was specifically talking about the closed deck design being useless for their factory goals... not 'ohhh why does it make so much less power'

i mean... the open deck clearly isn't a problem in the N54 until massive turbo power levels, so again, just dead weight until people start spending megabucks on the new motor seeing how far it can go? even then, it's pretty clear block strength isn't an issue in the N54 until VERY ridiculous power levels.

Are open decks ever a problem? How many motors used in Motorsport road course application are open deck? How often has BMW opted for an open deck M motor?

You're basing this on one (sorry two) 700+ wheel pulls from tuners trying to one up each on the dyno? I love your faith.

all i can think of is that their new cylinder coating isn't as strong as cast iron sleeves, so they need that to make up for it... why they'd do that when sleeves would be lighter? NFI

can't answer any of that second question

third one

two pulls? there's TONS of single guys *CLOSE* to 700whp

vargas was running close to or above 700 for thousands of miles

regardless, strength is really based on torque... and i don't believe dzenno popped the ENGINE at 650ft-lb, which is (at redline) far more power than already made.. heck, to break 700whp at 7000rpm, you only need .. well not even 550ft-lb, which is day-in-day-out torque levels for the N54.. of course, 650ft-lb at 7000rpm could show up a bearing issue, but there's already options almost out for that, and nothing to do with block strength?

so.. no, no faith, fact.

safe to say the N54 hasn't hit it's limits ESPECIALLY power wise... as long as, obviously, the tuning is right.

Of course but the point is it exists so MB kind of always has the upper hand due to it. So if an MB owner wants a higher performance option he can get it. If a BMW owner wants a higher performance option than the standard M car, he needs to get an MB apparently.

Still, all these cars are getting supremely good just as you said.

yes mate, I see... I understand now... never been an MB guy but I just did this price optioning for a C63 AMG 507 edition which in reality is the "price" competition for the M4 (2014)... well for me anyway

It comes to about $79,000........ no accident on MB USA's behalf I would think

I dunno why but I don NOT like anything over 4000 lbs... I drive my missus M6 and it is a flipping heavy ass TANK at 4700lbs or so with the dog and I in the saddle and some gas and it bobs and swoons and is a general pain in the rear end except on WOT in a straight line

if you have the capacity to run the E85, it'll be better on it as well...

the N54 is struggling? yeah, right now specifically with E85 based fuelling, but i wouldn't call 'broke the 700whp barrier with a ton left in reserve' ... 'struggling' even compared to teh S65.

And what if you have the capacity to run straight methanol? What about nitromethane? What then? Has the NHRA Top Fuel class switched to direct injection yet?

Originally Posted by Flinchy

the N54 is struggling? yeah, right now specifically with E85 based fuelling, but i wouldn't call 'broke the 700whp barrier with a ton left in reserve' ... 'struggling' even compared to teh S65.

Sorry, it's well established the N54 has fuel system struggles but it's not like it's the only direct injected motor that his this problem. This is really a direct injection issue and not an N54 issue. IMO it's a large disadvantage and once again primarily an efficiency technology and not performance and current performance levels from non-direct injected motors exceed their direct injected brethren by multiples. It's no comparison even really.

And what if you have the capacity to run straight methanol? What about nitromethane? What then? Has the NHRA Top Fuel class switched to direct injection yet?

why would they bother?

besides the fact it would cost them MANY millions (tens+) to develop a direct injector that can flow liters per second, you're not just comparing apples to oranges here... you're comparing lychees to watermelons

actually, out of the DI pool, N54 would be struggling the most fuelling wise yes, VAG has a much easier time with their HPFP system ( - they can hit 600whp+ on their 2.0 DI motors) - it's not the injectors fault though, purely the HPFP.

yes, it's an efficiency tech at heart, but that's not to say if it's limits are overcome it won't perform better than an equivalent PI (more boost, more timing, more compression) motor while ALSO being more efficient.

all i can think of is that their new cylinder coating isn't as strong as cast iron sleeves, so they need that to make up for it... why they'd do that when sleeves would be lighter? NFI

can't answer any of that second question

third one

two pulls? there's TONS of single guys *CLOSE* to 700whp

vargas was running close to or above 700 for thousands of miles

regardless, strength is really based on torque... and i don't believe dzenno popped the ENGINE at 650ft-lb, which is (at redline) far more power than already made.. heck, to break 700whp at 7000rpm, you only need .. well not even 550ft-lb, which is day-in-day-out torque levels for the N54.. of course, 650ft-lb at 7000rpm could show up a bearing issue, but there's already options almost out for that, and nothing to do with block strength?

so.. no, no faith, fact.

safe to say the N54 hasn't hit it's limits ESPECIALLY power wise... as long as, obviously, the tuning is right.

Tons of guys close to 700 whp? Tons? I guess I need to stay more informed on what is going on with the N54 or direct injected BMW turbo motor tuning. I thought I had a pretty good grasp but apparently I'm missing tons.

You tell me about how strong an open deck block is when you have guys beating on their motors with 700+ whp daily, ok? Seriously, SERIOUSLY, even the Supra needs built internals to do that reliably. 700 whp is a ton of power the stock block was never designed for it or it wouldn't be open deck.

People have popped motors at less than 650 pound-feet, what's your point?

Are you really advocating this motor should be open deck? Come on now. M's engineering made their choice for a reason. They didn't even go semi-closed. It's a fully closed deck, like the S65, S85, S54, S14, S38, S50, S52, and S62. Exactly as it should be.

Tons of guys close to 700 whp? Tons? I guess I need to stay more informed on what is going on with the N54 or direct injected BMW turbo motor tuning. I thought I had a pretty good grasp but apparently I'm missing tons.

You tell me about how strong an open deck block is when you have guys beating on their motors with 700+ whp daily, ok? Seriously, SERIOUSLY, even the Supra needs built internals to do that reliably. 700 whp is a ton of power the stock block was never designed for it or it wouldn't be open deck.

People have popped motors at less than 650 pound-feet, what's your point?

Are you really advocating this motor should be open deck? Come on now. M's engineering made their choice for a reason. They didn't even go semi-closed. It's a fully closed deck, like the S65, S85, S54, S14, S38, S50, S52, and S62. Exactly as it should be.

yeah? i mean.. 10+ or something? 20 even? it's getting more and more common these days... and i don't belive anyone has had an issue related to block strength (tuning, fuelling, yes)

ok.

and.. yeah, it needs built internals because the rods and pistons aren't strong enough, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with how strong the block is