There is a basic philosophy in the Brahma Kumaris movement that, "as in the beginning, so in the end" which is used to suggest that, e.g. just as there was an Anti-Party in the beginning of the movement, so there will be at the end of the Confluence Age.

I was just wondering if this also applied to the core beliefs in God?

For the first 20 years, the Brahma Kumaris did not know of Shiva's existence. They were monists that had faith in the Brahm or (Braham) element along. "Aham Brahm Asmi" was what they taught. "I am Brahm" ... the infinite divine light.

Does this mean that at the end of the Yugya, they will also revert back to believing in the Brahm as the supreme light, supreme god and that the personalised god, whether Lekhraj Kirpalani, Krishna or Shiva, will turn out to be just a yukti (method)? Will they accept that it is all about a state of consciousness, rather than an individual?

At present, we have no documentation of how, when, why and by whom the personalised God Shiva was introduced into the Brahma Kumaris movement at some point after 1950. No official document discussed it. Many have been made to hide and falsify the true history.

Will they come around to accept again that BapDada is Lekhraj Kirpalani speaking from a high state of consciousness, call it Brahm realisation if you will rather than channelling any other spiritual entity?

ex-l wrote:Will they come around to accept again that BapDada is Lekhraj Kirpalani speaking from a high state of consciousness, call it Brahm realisation if you will rather than channelling any other spiritual entity?

I've read this a few times but not understanding it correctly so must ask you (ex-l) to please clarify for me this point, are you saying that you perceive that Dada Lekhraj/Brahma Baba is channeling another 'entity' (which together then forms the 'being' called BapDada) or are you saying that it is the higher consciousness that he is connecting to that results in 'them' being called BapDada?

Or are you saying that Dada Lekhraj has been hi-jacked by another spirit being so that he is not even aware any longer of what his original teachings have become but though 'love blindness' the BKs still call him 'BapDada', i.e a product of their own teachings?

Please clarify, as in my experience, it may not be the same thing ... for example, I am aware that many spiritual 'teacher' channeling through his/her earthly medium may actually be made up of a group of beings, all resonating to one particular area of understanding, and all speaking as one voice, with one name. How this comes about to be I do not exactly know but I do know it exists in Spirit realms. How provable it is, well, unto the beholder I suppose ...

paulkershaw wrote:I've read this a few times but not understanding it correctly so must ask you (ex-l) to please clarify for me this point, are you saying that you perceive that Dada Lekhraj/Brahma Baba is channeling another 'entity' (which together then forms the 'being' called BapDada) or are you saying that it is the higher consciousness that he is connecting to that results in 'them' being called BapDada?

Well, you are making two separate suggestions here. The thought that the so-called Shiva entity might actually be more than one spirit/soul is the first suggestion. That to my mind is most certainly a possibility but not what I am raising here.

What I was more precisely asking was ... in the beginning, there was no Shiva. There was only the Brahm (or Braham). The Brahm element is traditionally considered not to be a "Soul World" as the BKWSU would have it but a level of oneness, a level of consciousness, a level of being in which all this were one. Spiritual light. No division.

This was inspired by Uddhava's question, "what is Raja Yoga?" because in traditional Raja Yoga as the yogi progresses, clears and re-balances their spirit they reach different levels of consciousness or experience which are well documented (how real they are, or how universal they are, I do not know). What I am suggesting is that Lekhraj Kirpalani obviously did have some sort of spiritual awakening, either by his own efforts or given by a master, and that he did reach a higher level of consciousness (although not necessarily the highest) and that he basically mistook or confused that higher level of consciousness with a personal God. Is that any better? At the very simplest level, as BK keep dying, more could be adding themselves to a 'group soul'.

I am trying to make sense of the huge difference between the first 20 years of the monist "Aham Brahm Asmi" (I am God ... I am Braham ... God is within me ... etc) and then the later introduction of a personal god called Shiva post-1950.

Now, if you can follow this we can add other variables. We know that Lekhraj Kirpalani was not the original medium and that it did not go as the BKWSU told us (e.g. 1936 ... Shivohum, Shivohum etc) that is all fiction. So, did Lekhraj Kirpalani open himself up to the Brahm AND THEN AFTER the Shiva soul/s come along and possess him? Was the Shiva soul/s hanging around waiting until he could possess him? Is this middles section of BKWSU history just that and the final section is that the Brahma Kumaris are going to realise that they have been duped or that there is no such authentic Shiva soul?

As in the Beginning, so in the End ... in the beginning, there was no Shiva and no personal god.

That would leave Gulzar being possessed by a Lekhraj Kirpalani in a heightened state of consciousness or by Lekhraj Kirpalani and Shiva soul/s. Personally, I would lay my cards on there being more than one spirit or soul involved but I am more questioning an "Lekhraj Kirpalani, the Ascended Masters" type equation.

Thanx for the requested explanation ex-l. I am feeling as if I am taking a bit of a chance by posting this info here and leaving myself wide-open for some critique I s'pose but here goes - it's on subject and an honest sharing of my own pathway that may be of some interest to those who choose to enquire as such:-

In my experience (during my BKWSU days of course), my personal experience of Lekhraj Kirpalani was as I would have been taught to know him (as Brahma Baba), and during 'trance' I have stood next to him in a realm of light and had good one-on-one interaction with him. So therefore, for me, I know he exists, at least in that state of being. However, I must say that I never felt him to be "BapDada" (a merging of two energies so to speak) at all but rather a stand-alone being, certainly filled with great love and wisdom and good to be around. I do remember being present in Abu and feeling that the BB I 'knew' did not feel the same as what I was seeing on the stage in front of me, the energies weren't 'bad' at all but weren't the same at all. Of course, I completely would agree that I was in a biased state at the time, so would have accepted anything that went on.

In much the same way, my current trance experiences link me to other beings, including ascended masters etc; and I feel the same way as I did back then. I 'arrive' to the presence of a love-filled wise spiritual being but who are also stand-alone's, or who work in specific group energies and 'practices'.

As a theory only, it would be most interesting for me to go sit in on BK meditation group and begin to "channel" someone or the other (but I doubt if said being would arrive?) and see what the response from within the group would be. Of course, this won't ever happen but it would make interesting research for me to see the response ...

I may be able to partly conclude that perhaps these beings, including Lekhraj Kirpalani are all pathways and that there is not only one way, except that the pathway to 'God realisation' is through "spirit" on whatever levels needed per individual. But then all the major religions and spiritual following of this world have a figure-head, so I don't see how the BKWSU can be any different?

Either that, or the being the BKWSU call BapDada actually has nothing to do with Lekhraj Kirpalani at all and something or someone else arriving through their trance medium ... this thread reads, 'As in the Beginning, so in the End' but I'd like to add here 'As Above, so Below'.

Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I am a Bk and a writer. I have been benefited a lot by the knowledge given in BK institution. I also have materials written totally on logic without BK knowledge. Anyone can get them as attachments for free by email.

1) There were visions. In the end they will be.
2) There was test like beggary part. In the end, it will be.
3) There was threat from anti Om mandali. In the end there will be threat when BKs say that Krishna is not God and not Gita sermonizer which is against Indian philosophy.
4) It was said Om Mandli richest in the world. In the end also it would be.
5) Newspapers commeted BKWSU. In the end also it would be.
6) Many BKs lost faith in BK philosophy. In the end, it will happen.
7) There was communal war and atomic war. In the end, it would be.

For the first 20 years there was no God Shiva in the BKWSU and instead there was faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi"? Will that also be returned to?

Is your list an "official list" or just one made up at random? (I am not hot on manmat from BKs). It does not follow any consistent logic.

1) There was visions, there were also possessions, there were many different mediums ... but many BKs have been having visions throughout the Yagya's history. Please clarify any difference.
2) The Beggary was not in the beginning. It was in the 1950s, wasn't it? 20 years or 20% of the way into the Confluence Age.
3) For the first 20 years, they said Lekhraj Kirpalani was the Gita Inventor. Are they going to return to that?
4) Richest what?

We know how much Lekhraj Kirpalani was worth at retirement courtesy of his advocate. It was approximately £3,000,000 in today's money. Wealthy but not that wealthy, especially by Indian standards of that time. By comparison, the Nizam of Hyderabad was the wealthiest man in the world in 1937, worth an equivalent $210,000,000,000 ($2 billion in 1940s when the Indian treasury only had an approximate annual revenue of $1 billion).

There are other ashrams, never mind religions, that are far more wealthy ... more wealthy than the Vatican, for example?
5) Om Mandli made the local newspapers in Sinh, they have been in the press ever since at least the 70s. So what is new?
6) More than 90% of individuals doing BK courses have left. So what is new?
7) The retirement and satsangs started in 1932 before Partition and WWII. There have certainly been communal wars ever since. Thankfully no more nuclear ones, perhaps at least that remains a potential. But we noted on 08 August 2006 BKWSU Global PR Chief Karuna Shetty telling the Moscow Times that the BKWSU had removed the teachings of a war between Russia and America ("Spiritual School Advises Celibacy for Happiness").

Karuna Shetty wrote:The university once taught that the current age, or cycle, would end in nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. This teaching was dropped after the fall of the Soviet Union, said Brother Karuna Shebby, the organization's chief spokesman, said by telephone from the group's Mount Abu headquarters in the Indian state of Rajasthan.

Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I am a Bk and a writer. I have been benefited a lot by the knowledge given in BK institution. I also have materials written totally on logic without BK knowledge. Anyone can get them as attachments for free by email.

ex-l wrote:1) For the first 20 years there was no God Shiva in the BKWSU and instead there was faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi"? Will that also be returned to?[/b]
2) but many BKs have been having visions throughout the Yagya's history. Please clarify any difference.
3) The Beggary was not in the beginning. It was in the 1950s, wasn't it? 20 years or 20% of the way into the Confluence Age.
4) For the first 20 years, they said Lekhraj Kirpalani was the Gita Inventor. Are they going to return to that?
5) Richest what?
6) More than 90% of individuals doing BK courses have left. So what is new?
7) The university once taught that the current age, or cycle, would end in nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. This teaching was dropped after the fall of the Soviet Union....]

1) I do not believe that there was Aham Brahmaasmi in the ebginning. There was chanting of Om and the children at that time, completely forget the whole world and were enjoying silence.
2) Initially there were visions of heaven (future). But the one what is happening throughout in the yayga is just of Brahma baba. In the beginning, the visions were thrilling (giving hapiness) and in the end also during the destruction, children will experience the same. The one what is happening throughout the Yagya is mainly just of Brahma baba and the aim is just to direct them to BKWSU.
3) Sometimes, Baba speaks aproximately.
4) I do not believe that BKs were believing Lekhraj Kriplani as Gita Inventor. The people who wrote might have done mistakes.
5) People who interviewed BKs in the beginng were surprised by the contentment of them. Hence they wrote in newspapers "Om Mandli is Richest(happiest) in the world". So this will repeat in the end.
6) I am not saying about who have done course. I am saying about who had developed faith for years. Many left Yagya during the beggary part. And this may happen in the end.
7) Good question. Even I also had raised this question to many BKs. *In Murli, baba has never said "America and Russia". Baba has said "Europe_vaasi yaadav". After that I guessed that the pictures are not perfect. There is Murli point that "Corrections will be going on". So BKs are also doing corrections in the pictures (Of copurse, sometimes with understanding and sometimes without, may be, all are dependent on the drama and purusharthah) In the beginning, newspapers did disservice of BKWSU. In the end, they will do service.
Anyhow, these are just MAY BEs. All the best.

mbbhat wrote:I do not believe that there was Aham Brahmaasmi in the beginning. There was chanting of Om and the children at that time, completely forget the whole world and were enjoying silence ...

Will you download and look at the original documents placed in the Library and authored by the Om Mandli and Om Radhe?

What you believe ... especially as you insist on wearing blinkers to the truth ... is of no importance. The facts are there. It only goes to prove again that you do not know what you are talking about, BKs are not told the truth, and you are all promoting a falsified series of events. If the pictures were not perfect, why did Baba certify them as it is written in the BK history books?

You will see no mention of God Shiva, only God Brahma the Gita Inventor. It is not true to say BKs are currently not having visions of heaven, I personally know that to be untrue. Likewise, America, their opposition, Destruction, the two cats etc ARE mentioned in the Murlis. I don't suppose your center-in-charge told you of how at times the women would scream and howl either?

... and there it is ... in brown and white ... pity none of it is even relevant any longer anyway, except in proving historical revisions. And BKWSU re-written teachings that are now so, like, outdated (did anyone tell the BKs that, eh?) - with the rise of the "Goddess" energy on the planet it may mean that along with a God we now have a Goddess too. That may explain a few things ...

Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I am a Bk and a writer. I have been benefited a lot by the knowledge given in BK institution. I also have materials written totally on logic without BK knowledge. Anyone can get them as attachments for free by email.

ex-l wrote:Will you download and look at the original documents placed in the Library and authored by the Om Mandli and Om Radhe?

What you believe ... especially as you insist on wearing blinkers to the truth ... is of no importance. The facts are there. It only goes to prove again that you do not know what you are talking about, BKs are not told the truth, and you are all promoting a falsified series of events. If the pictures were not perfect, why did Baba certify them as it is written in the BK history books?

You will see no mention of God Shiva, only God Brahma the Gita Inventor. Its not true to say BKs are current not having vision of heaven, I personally know that to be untrue. Likewise, America, their opposition, Destruction, the two cats etc ARE mentioned in the Murlis. I don't suppose your center-in-charge told you of how at times the women would scream and howl either?

Here is the evidence, click to enlarge. It is taken from the BK book about the Mahabharat War. See also, The Original Cycle

I read the BK book about Mahabharat War. It was really surprising to know the facts. But I had already mentioned in the forum that Baba used Bhaktmarg initially to give Gyan. Even though I was not aware of the facts, it makes no much difference due to the following Murli points.

Understanding of everyone is unique. Even the faith. Always consider that ShivBaba gives direction through this. You were on asuri direction for half Kalpa. Now develop the faith that we are on ishwariy direction, then the boat will be saved. If you consider as human direction, you will get confused. Father says if you follow my direction, then I am responsible, is it not. WHATEVER THAT HAPPENS THROUGH THIS, I AM RESPONSIBLE TO THOSE ACTIVITIES. YOU JUST FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS. Those who do good remembrance only will be able to follow the directions. If you consider the directions as ishwariy directions in EVERY STEP, there will never be loss. Victory is in FAITH. Many children do not understand this. (Sakar Murli 8-1-2000 Page 1)

Hence I think I was not wrong while posting even I did not know some of the facts.

God himself (you may say Lekhraj or SS) speaks that there will be changes in the pictures certified by him!

Lots of Corrections and Changes will happen in pictures. Like Baba says about Subtle Region, DOUBTFUL INTELLECTS will say WHAT IS THIS! Before they were saying this, and now they say this (different)- (SM 30-08-2000/Pg 3)

Baba has said in Murli that ‘trance is waste of time. Visions are of no use’. But who is responsible for trance or visions? Baba himself! Baba does something and after sometime he says it is of no use. Initially Baba has said I am ling-like. Then he said, I am not so. I am a point.

This may be the reason why God might not have stressed about his introduction. Hence the process was very slow. [Since understanding capacity of the children in the beginning was less and teaching cannot be fast(due to Single teacher, just God. Now the learned BKs can teach others), more importance was given for dharna than knowledge. Later knowledge is explained in detail].

There are many Murli points which indicate that many children did not know that it is Shiva speaking through Brahma. They did not know about the incarnation. They used to think that Brahma Baba himself is everything.

So these old documents explain more clearly to me an Avyakt Murli point, “The present 5 years is equivalent to 50 years of before”.

In the beginning, children were getting enjoyment by visions. In the end also it would be (Murli point- “jaise aadi may bahlaayaa thaa vaise ant may bhee bahlaayenge). Children were forgetting the whole world and for considerable duration (even the trance). [Baba had said that when Destruction would be going on one side, you children would be enjoying by those visions]. The visions you mentioned are not for enjoyment. They are just an instrument in increasing faith.

I have not heard Murli point saying that the two cats are Russia and America. It says Europevaasi yaadav. According to the history I know, the present Americans are actually from Europe. They attacked the people of origins (also called as red Indians) and took power. So, the cats may be the present America and Europe. It is very difficult to understand Murli points. [A simple example is about the word BapDada. This can be explained in many ways]. So what Baba speaks, how he speaks, in what context it is, nobody knows perfectly.

I was astonished by the spirit of Om Radhe even without knowing full knowledge. So I think even in the end, some of the BKs will have such a high spirit.

So, there was confusion in the beginning and so in the end (at least till today). There are two groups, BKs and PBKs!- Anyhow, I will go through the library first

You said BK would have visions as per the beginning, I pointed out BKs were having vision through out. I know that to be true. We were not discussing whether they were of any value or not, so that is another 'non sequitur'.

I hope you appreciate learning about all these methods of discussing and specific terms for incorrect manners.

mbbhat wrote:I have not heard Murli point saying that the two cats are Russia and America. It says Europevaasi yaadav.

I cant remember "Europevaasi yaadav". Do you have a reference? I can remember Yadava and something along the lines of "Christians" or "Christian brothers". This goes right back the early days. Here is a detail of a hand painted poster from the 30s which Lekhraj Kirpalani, then God Brahma, oversaw its design. You have Roosevelt and Stalin representing America and Russia. Click to enlarge.

Change is fine ... and inevitable. It is when it is hidden and covered up by the leadership in a manner to deceive and take false advantages out of the followers that is becomes wrong.

It is all big, stinking, ego on their behalf ... as they look pretty stupid really. But not to tell people about the many previous significant false or failed predictions of Destruction is far worse. You see, they all raise questions about their credibility and the credibility of their so-called God that we have a right to have answered.

Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I am a Bk and a writer. I have been benefited a lot by the knowledge given in BK institution. I also have materials written totally on logic without BK knowledge. Anyone can get them as attachments for free by email.

I am not saying that your questions are meaningless. But I am trying to give explanation from Murli as well as to my capacity. I will search from Murli the point Europevasi yaadav.

Still, it is not complete. Baba has said one more point as youvan. I will try to get Murli points according to my capacity.
Even the above picture is prepared were by children. Baba may not say wrong (about the picture) due to the following reasons.

1) Baba knows that since he will be guiding children till the end of the Kapla, he can correct at any time.
2) And it may be a homework for new children.
3) or Drama itself would be like that! Baba has kept drama in front of him in many cases.

One more reason why the series of predictions of Destruction are not a surprise to me is there is story on wolf and sheeps even in lokik.

I would like to blame BKs first for their weak effort (including me) due to which the dates of Destruction are postponed and not being able to catch Baba's points perfectly (to the maximum possible extent, at least). The drama is very huge and man is just a small insect!

The drama may be very huge but to say that human is just a small insect is invalid. After all, is it not your God that has appointed certain humans to change the drama by changing their consciousness? Therefore the role that 'human' plays is far larger than that of an insect ...

Define children ... actually, we know it was a collaboration between Lekhraj Kirpalani and Vishwa Kishore, with the support of some sisters for coloring in because they had to make so many copies to send out before they left Karachi. Nirwair saw a tree design elsewhere, BapDada ordered them, gave them his blessing, and then they were sent out to all the royal families and so on ... which is where these ones came from.

So they were good enough for God back them. The details are in Vishwa Kishore, autobiography and elsewhere.

Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I am a Bk and a writer. I have been benefited a lot by the knowledge given in BK institution. I also have materials written totally on logic without BK knowledge. Anyone can get them as attachments for free by email.

I agree man is not an insect. The hero actors of the drama are human souls and not God. Next to God are humans. I just made man small because he comes in cycle of birth and deaths [and today man's behaviour is worse than an animal. man has no satisfaction at all] Even Napoleon has said, “Whatever great man may be, one day death will come”

If you see the history, people praise only those who have praised God. Hence God only is great. BK philosophy says to forget body and body consciousness. Still if you say, my God is different, it is left to you.

Father is ocean of knowledge. His form is also taught; how subtle it is. They say it is ling. First give introduction of Father. LET THEM CONSIDER AS JYOTIRLINGAM ITSELF(!). DEEP MATTERS ARE TAUGHT LATER. It is said, shining star on forehead. So, definitely it would be small. Big ling will not sit here (SM 7/9/1977- Pg 2)

So Murli does not bother even if the newcomer assumes ling form as God. It says deep matters are taught later. So, there is no need to know who will be the cats. Because such things are not related to purusharthah (effort).