Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

If someone would give me an idiots guide (and I really do mean idiot), I would do something with my V-Piano so you could compare the behaviour of a fully modelled instrument. Presumably this is still layered but limited by the technical operating spec of MIDI, ie, 127 layers?

For info I use a Macbook Pro and do have a USB flash drive device if needed so tell me what to do and I'll have a go with the V.

I'm looking at the V-Piano manual, and it will definitely play an SMF (Standard MIDI File) on a USB flash drive plugged into the front USB connector. The instructions starting on page 64 in the manual are pretty clear on how to do that.

Download the dp_bsd_v1.3.mid file from my share directory at mediafire, copy the file to your USB flash drive, then plug the flash drive into the V-Piano. Navigate to it in the V-Piano, set the tempo to 120, and see if it plays OK. Please turn off the reverb as it makes analysis more difficult.

However, I don't see a way to record to wave or MP3 (you can play these files on the V-Piano, but probably not record them). The manual discusses ways to record and save songs but I assume these are MIDI files (?) - which aren't useful for this case.

So I think you will need to run line-out from the V-Piano to your PC, and record it there. The S/PDIF connector is the best as there is no digital/analog/digital conversion going on, but use the analog line level outputs (outputs A) if you can't easily connect S/PDIF to your PC. If connecting analog, try to get as hot a signal as you can without clipping. For the file you are recording to, specify 44.1kHz sample rate, stereo, and either 16bit PCM (good) or 32 bit float (best). After recording, save as a 192kbps CBR (Constant Bit Rate) MP3 file. If you can't save as MP3, save as a *.wav file and I can probably convert it for you.

Then put the output file somewhere that I can get at it (if necessary, create a mediafire account, it is super easy).

If someone would give me an idiots guide (and I really do mean idiot), I would do something with my V-Piano so you could compare the behaviour of a fully modelled instrument. Presumably this is still layered but limited by the technical operating spec of MIDI, ie, 127 layers?

For info I use a Macbook Pro and do have a USB flash drive device if needed so tell me what to do and I'll have a go with the V.

You should be able to play the MIDI file on the V-piano simply by copying the file onto a USB thmb drive. Try the just to see if it plays. Get that to work first.

OK you've solved half the problem. Next comes recording the sound to the computer. The intrnal sound in the MBP is good enough. You will need a cable. Use a fiber optic S/PIF if you can otherwise you will have to use "Line In".

The Mac uses a special 3.5mm round SPDIF connector. The normal cone is square. You can buy a S/PIDIF cable with the right ends but a square to round adaptor cost under $5 and will let you use a standard and cheap optical cable.

Line in uses the same 3.5mm jack (It is a combo optical/electric jack) Yu need a 3.5mm TRS splitter cable to takes the stereo jack into two mono cables. Then you connect these to the left and right line outs on the Roland. Either draw a diagram of what you need and look for the parts are Sam Ash or Guitar center (both have a good selection of cables) or call Sweetwater and just tell them what equipment you have and what you want to do.

Once you have the cables plugges in recording audio is easy. Inside GarageBand make a real instrument track, asign the input to it, click "record" then start the v-piano playing. Later you can highlight the silence in the track and click "delete. then save the file

One more technical suggestion for the next version of the MIDI file. I had some trouble setting the recording level. I thought I had it set right and then later far into the track I noticed clipping so I had to re-record. So the suggestion is to add something that near the front, maybe a simple chord progression that could be used for settig the level. It should be the loudest part of the file. You could set the velocity to 127 but you'd have to guess which notes have the loudest sound, I'd guess the bass. or cords with the damper pedal down.

I used Garage Band to make this. Left everything at it's default setting and the only equipment I use was a cable to plug the P155 directly into the line-in in the Mac. GB wants to "normalize" the volume on any MP3 file it exports. But all this really does it set a constant in the MP3 file header.

One more technical suggestion for the next version of the MIDI file. I had some trouble setting the recording level. I thought I had it set right and then later far into the track I noticed clipping so I had to re-record. So the suggestion is to add something that near the front, maybe a simple chord progression that could be used for settig the level. It should be the loudest part of the file.

Yes, that is a good idea to put the highest level up-front in the recording.

ChrisA, I took a quick look at the P155 and I must say that Yamaha is doing a very good job of blending their velocity layers, I can't hear or see them, and timbre variation seems good with velocity. Typical sample lengths (<1 sec to ~3 sec) and stretching for Yamaha, though the looping is a bit better than most of what they've done in the past. Nice levels in the recorded file.

Rob, this is another one of those linear phase files, my first from a non-PC based sampler, which makes analysis more difficult. Also has nice blended timbre variation with velocity. I clearly hear stretching and sample lengths in the neighborhood of what Yamaha tends to do. One strange thing is the G7 note, which has so many harmonics it sounds more like G8!

ChrisA, and Rob, thanks much! I'll get on these in-depth tomorrow morning.

I tried using garageband but I am useless with technology. There is no optical digital in on my MacBook Pro because it is the 13" version.

In the end I recorded using the V-Piano's coaxial digital out to my stand-alone hi-fi CD recorder. The only problem with it with a digital input is that you cannot adjust rec level and it is slightly quiet. At least it was in the digital domain throughout. I uploaded it from CD into iTunes as a 192kbps mp3 file. I hope you can work with the file. I'm interested to see how the V-Piano performs in your test.

I reviewed it this morning, and, other than the nice seamless blending of the velocity layers (I couldn't see or hear velocity layer transitions), there are no obvious technical improvements over the P-120. The samples themselves are the same old short 3 seconds max, looped & stretched. Sympathetic resonance sounds unimpressively identical to the P-120.

I'm quite frankly rather shocked at this. And I must admit this is starting to seriously damp my hopes for the new CP1/5/50 products.

One strange thing I notice is the note G7 (second-highest G) sounds strangely like G8! I hear this in my VintAudio sample too. Very odd.

Nice to hear what the V-Piano sounds like up-close. Strange that there are velocity discontinuities in something modeled, I wasn't expecting that. And the sympathetic resonance is unfortunately very weak sounding. But it beats all sampled DPs I've heard so far, and is on par with PC samplers.

Thanks Dewster, very interesting. My ears may not be quite as sharp as they used to be but I can time the sustain in the lower registers to 40+ secs after a good slap on a key. The pedal sample is there (if you mean the little whoosh noise when it is depressed and returned...the level of it is adjustable, I have it fairly discrete), but you might not be hearing it due to the quietness of the recording. Likewise, surprisingly most presets in the vintage section of the V-Piano have sympathetic resonance set pretty low, although you can have as much as you like. I had initially recorded the BS detector in Garageband but through analogue input at the perfect volume but then inadvertently deleted it...The Mac nearly went out the window at that point!

Cheers and thanks on behalf of us all for the work you are doing with this project.

I had initially recorded the BS detector in Garageband but through analogue input at the perfect volume but then inadvertently deleted it...The Mac nearly went out the window at that point!

Sorry you had trouble Steve - this stuff is kind of easy once you set it up, but getting it set up in the first place might drive you crazy if you run into any HW/SW issues.

If you or anyone else wants to submit what might be a better sample, I'd certainly take a listen to it and update the review. I'd like to hear what the key and pedal samples sound like, and I am always very interested in what the sympathetic resonance sounds like.

1) the DEFAULT Grand Piano 1 (whatever that means!) patch should be used - not a version that has been edited by the user. In the case of V-Piano, I guess Vintage Piano 1 might quality. (However, in terms of the sound quality aspect, V1 Impactance (with the hammers softened) sounds MUCH better.

2) V-Piano's output should be boosted. The default setting is very conservative.

Utility / Output Gain / (I have mine set at +9dB) Experiment to determine what settings work best.

Strange that there are velocity discontinuities in something modeled, I wasn't expecting that.

This apparent velocity discontinuity may not be real - the difference in timbre between successive notes may be due to the modelling of the hammer hitting strings that are already vibrating. It would be interesting to repeat the test with a longer gap between notes, to ensure that the notes are COMPLETELY deadened. If the release duration (i.e the rate at which the dampers damp the strings) can be adjusted, it might be prudent to set it as fast as possible for this particular test.

Anything in your tests to suggest that there is any sampling going on in the V-Piano?

Nothing in terms of spectral views - the notes each look fairly random phase-wise. But the obvious velocity discontinuities (I would call this "layer switching" if it were a sampler) are rather strange for what is considered & sold as a 100% modeler. You can easily hear them as timbre variations, and easily see them in the waveform (amplitude / time - oscilloscope) view in Audition.

This apparent velocity discontinuity may not be real - the difference in timbre between successive notes may be due to the modelling of the hammer hitting strings that are already vibrating.

Julias O. Smith III discusses what you are talking about as a realistic effect that should perhaps be eliminated in modeled pianos. Start the string over rather than add/subtract energy and create unexpected results.

I'm certainly not trying to harp on the V-Piano, just trying to figure out what is going on in there. Admittedly, the DPBSD is more geared to revealing the limitations of samplers...

Here's what I'm seeing in Audition:You can see, particularly in the lower (corresponding to the stereo right channel) waveform (envelope actually, this zoomed out) the strange velocity notes that look kind of squashed, while the others look pretty much like they are uniformly increasing. I'm think I hear timbre group changes there too, but maybe it's the gin talking.

Originally Posted by sullivang

It would be interesting to repeat the test with a longer gap between notes, to ensure that the notes are COMPLETELY deadened. If the release duration (i.e the rate at which the dampers damp the strings) can be adjusted, it might be prudent to set it as fast as possible for this particular test.

Subjectively, I don't find anything in the performance of the V-Piano that suggests velocity switching although I don't hear velocity switching on my Yamaha (which has the same main voice as the P155 I believe). It may be due to the low level of the recording I made but also I was surprised to see that the dynamic range was not greater than some other pianos. Subjectively, the difference between the quietest key strike and loudest is immense.

Lawrence, I used V1 Impactance I think. I turned all effects/reverb etc off but did not even look at what the other stuff such as string resonance, damper resonance etc was doing.

I'll do another recording at a higher level using Vintage 1. Yesterday I did a factory reset so I won't touch any other setting other than to turn reverb off.

I think Greg's point is interesting. If you rock a glass of water and set it washing from side to side you can almost stop it if you introduce another movement out of sync with the washing of the water at the right time. Maybe striking the strings whilst they are vibrating could induce a similar phenomenon, creating a similar graphic effect to velocity switching. Can you tell I'm not a physicist?!!

I'll also reduce the tempo to 60bpm and upload that too to see if there is still evidence of what might be velocity switching.

Unless I can increase the digital output I'll have to record from analogue outs.

Steve,If you play repeated notes on a real piano, with the sustain pedal down, you can hear the effect very easily - each note sounds a bit different. Yes, I think your glass of water analogy is right on. It is my understanding that digital pianos and synths commonly emulate this (very well, IMHO) by simply overlapping "voices", such that as you play each note, the sound of the previous note is allowed to continue to sound. The summation of the voices creates a subtle "phasing" effect which changes every time you play a note. It is plainly obvious to me that this is occuring in two software samplers that I have - I can watch the voice count keep increasing as I play the SAME note repeatedly with the sustain pedal. (even Pianoteq, which is modelled, increases it's voice count a bit, so it may even be doing it the same way) Without the sustain pedal, you would have to play repeated notes very "legato" in order for this to happen, of course.

I am by no means certain that this effect is occurring in your V-Piano recording - it's just a possibility I am raising.