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CANDY CANES and their meaning

I found myself in church last Sunday, being supportive of a young family member who was performing some music.

While there, I heard this story. I suppose many of you have heard or read the same story, or some variation of it during the month of December. Well here is what was said:

The Christian Origin of the Candy Cane

A candymaker in Indiana wanted to make a candy that would be a witness, so he made the Christmas Candy Cane. He incorporated several symbols from the birth, ministry, and death of Jesus Christ.

He began with a stick of pure white, hard candy. White to symbolize the Virgin Birth and the sinless nature of Jesus, and hard to symbolize the Solid Rock, the foundation of the Church, and firmness of the promises of God.

The candymaker made the candy in the form of a "J" to represent the precious name of Jesus, who came to earth as our Savior. It could also represent the staff of the "Good Shepherd" with which He reaches down into the ditches of the world to lift out the fallen lambs who, like all sheep, have gone astray.

The candymaker stained it with red stripes. He used three small stripes to show the stripes of the scourging Jesus received by which we are healed. The large red stripe was for the blood shed by Christ on the cross so that we could have the promise of eternal life.

Every time you see a Candy Cane, remember the Wonder of Jesus and His Great Love that came down at Christmas, and that His Love remains the ultimate and dominant force in the universe today.

Well the story is just not true. Candy canes were not created by "a candymaker in Indiana" who "stained them with red stripes to show the stripes of the scourging Jesus received." Candy canes were around long before there was an Indiana, and they initially bore neither red coloration nor striping -- the red stripes were a feature that did not appear until a few hundred years later, at the beginning of the 20th century:

About 1847, August Imgard of Ohio managed to decorate his Christmas tree with candy canes to entertain his nephews and nieces. Many who saw his canes went home to boil sugar and experiment with canes of their own. It took nearly another half century before someone added stripes to the canes . . . Christmas cards produced before 1900 show plain white canes, while striped ones appear on many cards printed early in the 20th century.

In fact, the strongest connection one can make between the origins of the candy cane and intentional Christian symbolism is to note that legend says someone took an existing form of candy which was already being used as a Christmas decoration (i.e., straight white sticks of sugar candy) and produced bent versions which represented a shepherd's crook and were handed out to children at church to ensure their good behavior:

Soon after Europeans adopted the use of Christmas trees, they began making special decorations for them. Food items predominated, with cookies and candy heavily represented. That is when straight, white sticks of sugar candy came into use at Christmas, probably during the seventeenth century.

Tradition has it that some of these candies were put to use in Cologne Cathedral about 1670 while restless youngsters were attending ceremonies around the living creche. To keep them quiet, the choirmaster persuaded craftsmen to make sticks of candy bent at the end to represent shepherds' crooks, then he passed them out to boys and girls who came to the cathedral.

Claims made about the candy's religious symbolism have become increasingly widespread as religious leaders have assured their congregations that these mythologies are factual, the press have published these claims as authoritative answers to readers' inquiries about the confection's meaning, and several lavishly illustrated books purport to tell the "true story" of the candy cane's origins. This is charming folklore at best, and though there's nothing wrong with finding (and celebrating) symbolism where there wasn't any before, the story of the candy cane's origins is -- like Santa Claus -- a myth, not a "true story."

Fictional accounts of the candy cane's religious origins are the subject of a number of colorful Christmas volumes, including The Candymaker's Gift: A Legend of the Candy Cane by Helen Haidle (1996), The Candy Cane Story by Joy Merchant Nall and Thomas Nall, Jr. (1996), The Legend of the Candy Cane by Lori Walburg (1997), and the children's book The "J" Is For Jesus by Alice Joyce Davidson (1998).

What is interesting about this little story, is that I have never met a single Christian who ever doubted that this story was true. Yet I have never met one who bothered to research it before repeating it themselves.

64 comments:

Nic A.
said...

You know, I'm all in agreement with you, but this quasi-plagiarism makes all us ex-Christians look bad.

You could've just put up the Snopes link (http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/candycane.asp) and been done with it, as the sources YOU list are all listed there (and in the same order), as are the fake-legend children's books - in the same order as well.

This is my first time and last time on your site. All I can say is I will pray for every last one of you. Our God is a good and loving God. I hope you someday will close your eyes and open your heart to him. He loves everyone of us so much He sent His only son, Jesus so we have a way to Heaven. So when you think there isn't anyone there for you, just look up.

Thanks for the insightful explanation & clarification on the story of the candy stick. Personally, I don't really see any contradictions to the story of the Indiana candy maker vs the origin of candy sticks ... It is not claimed that he was the 1st person who made the candy sticks... i mean .. the part about him adding the red stipes & all the symbolism that is added in could be true if he had that in mind i guess .... have a blessed Christmas!

Well, I must say that I am very sad to discover that there is a site like this. I don't find the fact that you call yourselves "ex-Christians" very accurate because I know that if you had truly encountered Christ you would not be a member of this site. You encountered religion and found that it didn't meet your needs. I'm sorry that the churches you belonged to didn't show you who Christ really is. I don't know the specific reasons that each of you have for being "ex-Christians" but I KNOW that my God is real and that HE cares about every aspect of my life and He cares about your lives too even if you don't want Him to. I am sorry for your pain and whatever it was that made you turn your back on God. He is still holding out His hand to you and He is awaiting your return. God bless each and every one of you!

Tell me Mel, how does one "encounter a being called Christ" Could you please provide evidence of your god, or demonstrate the incredible feat of the manifestation of your god? Um, you can't...and you never will.

Mel, just as you have delusions of an imaginary big sky daddy-deity, who will never ever be proven, there are 3-5 million people in the U.S. who think they have been abducted by space aliens. And their experiences are real too, similar to your experiences---they are real to you and only you.

If Christ cares about everybody's lives, tell me, Mel, why doesn't he help the millions of children who suffer and die every year in Africa? Your deity doesn't care because he doesn't exist. But you think you are special and somehow the big sky daddy is watching over you.

Well, I must say that I am very sad to discover that there is a site like this.

Obviously you were searching Mel. If you were to be totally honest with yourself, my guess is your own doubts about Christianity brought you here.

I don't find the fact that you call yourselves "ex-Christians" very accurate because I know that if you had truly encountered Christ you would not be a member of this site.

I'll bet you Mel that our experiences with "Christ" are just as valid as yours. Many of us did a few of the "prayers of salvation," baptism, speaking in tongues etc. kinds of things that you do, we just took a step back and looked at your religion. We did not keep our heads stuck in the sand. We have been able to see the myth for what it is. A simple, and very flawed story. You see we got better.

I don't know the specific reasons that each of you have for being "ex-Christians" but I KNOW that my God is real and that HE cares about every aspect of my life ...

I see. My guess as to why you don't know our reasons is because you did not read them. Just like the good little Christian trooper you are, you showed up with a closed mind, didn't read, and just posted the same old thing you folks always do. Next time you are here read some of the testimonies, unless of course you are to afraid to. and He cares about your lives too even if you don't want Him to. I am sorry for your pain and whatever it was that made you turn your back on God. He is still holding out His hand to you and He is awaiting your return. God bless each and every one of you!

As to your god being real, well, I feel sad for you having to believe in some myth to give your life meaning. I really am sorry for you.

now run along silly little man. I am too busy to waste anymore time on you pathetic little comments.

The Christian folk who have posted have done so in good nature, and some of them, including me, will accept that the Candy Cane story could very easily be a bi-product of the modern era trying to stamp a Christian authority on the holidays.

Many Christians, particularly outside of the USA are quite open about the pagan origins of the holiday, and realise the continued customs of having greenery and food on display through the dark months as a tribute to "mother earth" and the gods of "fertility, nutrition" etc etc.

My peeve with you guys is that you are agressive towards them. If a Christian meets a none-believer, they calmly explain, and you must admit that there are more "nice mannered" people who come from a faith background...whether Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, Islamic...than those without. My feeling on this, and my own journey is far from a steady one, as a historian, I question EVERYTHING! is that those who believe they are happier without a god or a belief, are in actual fact, the ones with the greater inner-turmoils. Faith isn't a crutch, it's a bold leap. It's much easier and much more convenient in modern times to say all religion is bad and flawed.

I won't force doctrine and scripture down your throat, but there are more people in this world who believe in some sort of Divine power than who don't...even physicists when explaining the creation of all the Universe, use a name for the unknown, or God...they call it "X".

When was the last time you felt particularly emboldened? Stop hiding behind false bravery, intellectualism, and agression.

Andy: "Why are some of you 'ex-Christians' so bitter if life is sweeter now?"

Let's break your question into two parts. Part I: Are some of you "bitter"? Part II: If so, why do you proclaim that life is "sweeter" now? The answer to Part I is "No, what gives you that idea?". Part II now becomes moot. Hope that helps.

Andy: "The Christian folk who have posted have done so in good nature,..."

The majority of Christian posters at this site are ill-mannered and woefully ill-informed. They recite dogma without any intention of listening or learning. It gets very tiresome.

Andy: "My peeve with you guys is that you are agressive towards them. If a Christian meets a none-believer, they calmly explain, and you must admit that there are more 'nice mannered' people who come from a faith background...whether Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, Islamic...than those without."

That could well be true judging from your own personal experience. In my experience I would gladly admit that both Buddhists and Jews tend to be above average on the politeness scale (and I'll throw in Mormons too--I actually like talking to most Mormons about their beliefs). I do not have enough exposure to Muslims to form even a tentative opinion. But I have met plenty of overbearing self-righteous Christians. As to how things stack up globally, I have no idea; I have no reliable data to base such a judgment on.

If, however, we restrict the universe of discussion to posters at this site, then the statistics look fairly bad for Christian, as per my comments above.

Andy: "My feeling on this, and my own journey is far from a steady one, as a historian, I question EVERYTHING! is that those who believe they are happier without a god or a belief, are in actual fact, the ones with the greater inner-turmoils."

Unless you have some means to objectively measure this "inner-turmoil", it seems you are stuck with pure speculation. What do you hope to accomplish with that?

By the way, it seems to me that you have the cart squarely before the horse. Ought not the goal be to discover what is *true* (as best we can) rather than what is most *comforting*? After all, I may find solipsism the most comforting; that doesn't make it true.

Andy: "Faith isn't a crutch, it's a bold leap. It's much easier and much more convenient in modern times to say all religion is bad and flawed."

What makes it "bold" as opposed to "foolhardy"? The fact that you refer to it as a "leap" suggests that it requires one to accept that which is not rationally supported. I see no reason to portray that as laudable. In fact, I'd say that uncritical acceptance of wild claims in at the root of many social problems.

As for it being "easier" to reject all religion, I think you have that backwards. I think it's far easier to accept what you are told, to seek comfort in mystical ideas, and to portray one's self as a "good Christian" in today's society (at least in the US). I think it takes courage and a steadfast commitment to facing the facts in order to shed the prevailing religious dogma of one's society.

Andy: "When was the last time you felt particularly emboldened? Stop hiding behind false bravery, intellectualism, and agression."

I can make very little sense of that statement, but enough to recognize it as unfounded and inflammatory. Who, exactly, are you attacking, and on what grounds? Let's see if you can show some courage and state your case clearly.

Stop barging in on a website that is clearly marked EX-christian; stop giving your opinion when it's not asked for; stop making crass and unfounded generalizations about people whom you've never met; stop trying to deprive people of their own emotions; stop taking the position of a "Deist", when it is your personal "Jesus Christ" you are promoting all along; stop pimping your personal belief as a universal "Truth"; stop ass-uming that 'popular vote' determines "Truth"; stop and think why you dismiss the existance of Allah, and then you'll know why we dismiss your "Jesus"; stop expecting people to not be skeptical of your "Jesus is Lord" worldview, when you are skeptical of all other people's god-beliefs.....and in the Athiest's case---NO belief in god(s); stop expecting people who have been manipulated into joining a religious cult to not be "agressive" when it's members try to "win" them back.

Most of all---STOP yourself before you reply, unless you come back with objective evidence for your belief.

This Christmas I was searching for something interesting to share with the children of our church and a friend suggested the candy cane legend. I have heard it before, but even when I first heard the story, I found it suspect. I feel adamant that we should never present something as historical which has no basis in history. So with one single Google search it became more than clear that the candy cane origin story is just a nice fable. Fables are not wrong, but they are to be communicated in the genre for which they were written. It is true that some Christians are very poor at searching our primary sources. But is it not true, that there are always some of those of whatever world view, who fail to ferret out the truth? Like you, I simply want reality. "True truth" as the philosopher Francis Schaeffer would call it, will stand in the end no matter what you and I think or believe. We should not characterize our understanding of Christian from the credulous. And the truth is--there are great intellects on both sides (Christians and Agnostics). That should tell us that there might be more factors than just the score of one's IQ in discovering truth. Let me suggest a couple of sources that are some of the best that Christianity has to offer: Ravi Zacharias' speaking at Harvard (The historic event was recorded and available on DVD) called The Harvard Veritas Forum. It is one of the best engagements with honest questions about Atheism and Theism and the true Identity of Jesus. Also, there is the classic work of C.S. Lewis titled: Mere Christianity. Life is too valuable to throw stones at each other. We all must discover truth for ourselves. It seems most reasonable to research the best that both sides have to offer and not derive our conclusions from representatives of either side who haven't done their homework. The truth is the only thing that sets us free. Thanks for listening. This is about only the 2nd or 3rd time I've ever blogged anything on the inter-net. Signed, A Pastor in Lee's Summit MO.

Don't you think it interesting that when you wanted to know the truth about the Candy Cane story, you were able to access the information immediately, and for free, but if I want to access the information you mention, I have to pay for it. And Ravi’s books aren’t cheap!

No worries, however, I've already read most of Ravi's stuff and nearly all of CS Lewis' published works. Other than both men’s' ability to twist phrases into knots until something bizarre and impossible sounds almost likely to be true, I find both authors vacuous and dull. It takes more than quick-witted writing skills to make invisible, magical, manically wrathful deities come to life, except maybe within a believer’s imagination.

The webmaster already made the point I was going to make, so I'll simply add a brief comment for emphasis. I too have read quite a bit by Zacharias and C. S. Lewis. While I have some respect for Lewis as a writer, I have zero respect for Zacharias. His works lack scholarship and are brimming with ad hominem attacks and baseless assertions. His comments about atheists are usually absurd and inflammatory. While I am not familiar with the lecture you mentioned, I would be shocked if it was of better quality than his writings. If you can point me to a transcript of his address, I will be happy to take a look nonetheless.

As for C. S. Lewis, yes he was a brilliant writer, but his apologetics was very weak, resting primarily on emotional appeals and often outright fallacies (e.g. his version of the "lord-liar-lunatic" trilemma, and his dismissal of the precursors to Christianity).

Have you read any books by Robert Price, Earl Doherty, or John Dominic Crossan? All of them are far more serious scholars than the authors you mentioned.

Let me suggest a couple of sources that are some of the best that Christianity has to offer:

Whaaa?..I thought the Holy Bible was "the best source" that Christianity has to offer, no? Yes, so why does "GOD'S WORD" need "companion" books? If anything, Christian book stores should stock nothing but books that are anti-christianity---that way, Christians are strengthening their "Faith" with reason and logic, and making informed decisions, instead of merely reaffirming their belief on something as shakey as "strength in numbers". Think about it.

"When was the last time you felt particularly emboldened? Stop hiding behind false bravery, intellectualism, and agression."

yeah i wish you ex-C's would stop being so intellectual and rational. The last thing we need in this day and age is intellectual thought mixed with rational discourse. Why, all the people that believe in the flying zombie Jew (I love that one:) ) and his all loving daddy in the sky that will send you to an eternity of torment for calling him names might have to do some thinking and face the fact that they don't know nearly as much as they think they do and we can't have that.

I found this site while looking for the orgin ot the candy cane. I was "informed" that the candy cane was made to christians. I thought this sounded fishy so I went looking. I of course found snoops saying it was false. I was pretty happy about this but kept looking just to be sure. I would hate to pass on facts there were not true, it drives me crazy when people insist on doing such things. I am an exchristian and have read thought your site and have enjoyed it. Keep up the good writing!

As a Christian... I find great symbolism in the candy cane... and I am aware that this symbolism has developed over a very long period of time. I also think there is a strong logical argument that the candy cane... stick... has been at least adopted as a unique symbol of Christmas by the Christian community from at least as far back in history as the days of Martin Luther... I think that stories like the Candy Maker's Gift are a wonderful way to embrace the candy cane as a symbol of the gospel... in fact I will use it this Christmas Eve. Finally I also agree that to pass these stories of the candy cane's origin along to others as historical fact does not honor the Gospel or the Jesus of the Gospel who is the self proclaimed "Way... Truth... and Life". Believers in Jesus must always be careful to speak the truth about the gospel... and to "Christ-Celebrate" in all they do during the holiday season. Just a note... I am not offended by "X-Mass"... for me X is a symbol for Christ... (the Greek letter X... the first letter in the Greek spelling of Christos or Christ)... it is one of the several cross configurations used in the ancient world... and X is a variable for the unknown, and the true seeker is always solving for X... the X that is to be celebrated (the "mass" in X-MAS. So I wish all the non-believers and self labeled ex-believers who might visit this sight and read this comment a Merry X-Mass... may you find an "X" that is truly worth celebrating!

I am laughing...so hard I'm almost crying! First...after a lovely Christmas performance at the school that I work at...the teacher decided to educate us all on the origin of the candy cane. All of the students in her class were right there along with her, reciting a poem about it. So I decided to call BS on this foolishness, and ah ha! I was right! It was just another christian ruse. I like to teach my students to question everything...especially a greedy corporate scam that has served to keep the rabble in line and paying out the dinero to get into the golden circle for centuries. Hmmmm....candy canes...still laughing.

I find great symbolism in the invisible pink teapot which orbits the sun at a point somewhere between Jupiter and Saturn.

It has been adopted by many as symbolic of the abysmally low standard of proof that religionists require to support their beliefs.

So, Jesus is the soi-disant way, truth and life, just as all presidents/politicians are, prior to election. What I do not understand is why you apply a different standard of proof to them than to jesus.

When they fail to keep their promises, you no longer believe and vote for them.

Jesus has been failing to keep his promises for nearly 2,000 years, and his putative father for even longer than that, yet you continue to believe in and vote for him. Strikes me as odd, rather.

I shall enjoy celebrating the midwinter festival without the trappings that christinsanity imposed when it hijacked it.

I wish you Peace, Charly. May I humbly advise you not to wait for and expect peace to arrive at the intervention of a deity who neither keeps his promises nor treats his children as well as mortal parents treat theirs.

Thanks for the kind words. People are generally passionate about the things they like to do, yes? Well, I like to rid world of legendary thinking. And for those reading this who are thinking, "but religion isn't going away".... well, I have "faith" that is, and those who have "faith" can move mountains, right? ; ]

Anyway, my previous comment about Xians holding their breath until Jesus comes back was said tongue-in-cheek. I don't have ill-will toward any person. On the other hand, I have a disdain for religious fanaticism/fundamentalism and its indoctrination process, and this is for the reasons I've given many times on this site. As long as the fundies come waltzing in here regurgitating their apologetics, I will challenge them - and yes, I will do it with passion.

Cheers.

PS: What's the significance of "redtail"? If it's in reference to snakes, I have a 7' blood python living in my spare bathroom shower stall. It's tame....well, I shouldn't say "tame"---it tolerates me sometimes. heh.

Sheila, I hope that one day you will see that Yoda loves you and always will, no matter if you are a Jedi or not. I pray one day Yoda will reveal himself to you and make himself real to you sometime soon.

may the force be with you and not fiction.more love to you from that loveable green latex puppet

Sheila, you ignorant twat. Who the f@#k are you talking to? This post is 7 years old.

I hope that one day you see that God loves you and always will, no mater who you are or what your past is. I pray that God will make Himself real to you sometime soon.

Nope, no sirree; I'm not down with the delusion.

You would think if god wanted to reveal himself to me then he could do it, being god and all. As if, god needed the help from Shelia's cosmic phone connection -- a bit arrogant aren't you Sheila? And cuckoo, delusional too.

Sheila, you ignorant twat. Who the f@#k are you talking to? This post is 7 years old.

I hope that one day you see that God loves you and always will, no mater who you are or what your past is. I pray that God will make Himself real to you sometime soon.

Nope, no sirree; I'm not down with the delusion.

You would think if god wanted to reveal himself to me then he could do it, being god and all. As if, god needed the help from Shelia's cosmic phone connection -- a bit arrogant aren't you Sheila? And cuckoo, delusional too.

Christian guest: I hope that one day you see that God loves you and always will, no [matter] who you are or what your past is

Golly, let's see......so, since my "past" will be that of an nonbeliever, the suggestion is that as I'm being incinerated 24/7 with some god-damned, f%cking "FIRE", the Christian biblegod will "still love me" as it sits idly by and watches.

Is that an accurate depiction? Seriously, can't you see how incredibly iNsAnE your religious beliefs are? No, of course not.....after all, you have 'Faith"----doesn't she, "allisjames"?(yes, I see you....boo!)

Guest continues....I pray that God will make Himself real to you sometime soon.

Oh so I guess you guys don't believe in satan either huh? are you running the "see no evil" theory too? I can't see it so it doesnt exist...thats the lazy person's excuse to not think out side of human reasoning...there is a level of reasoning and logic so complex that it is beyond our understanding...oh and we're the ones not having any reasoning right?

Oh my, you are in quite a dilemma. So let us pray, errrrrr, I mean analyze the situation.

1. Was it of your own free will that you asked JC into your life so long ago? Or were you duped? Drunk?2. Regardless of your answer to #1, it is JC's will for you to either suffer forever the consequences of your own free will or ....3. Suffer forever the consequences of JC's will for you.4. If you try to hide from JC, it will find you.5. When JC finds you, see #2 and #3. 6. Repeat endless loop.7. Loophole: Did you listen with your HEART?8. Loophole: Do you have a RELATIONSHIP with JC?9. Loophole: Did you read the OWNER'S MANUAL? and the mother of all loopholes10. IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE IT'S ALL BULLSHIT

This is my first time and last time on your site. All I can say is I will pray for every last one of you. Our God is a good and loving God. I hope you someday will close your eyes and open your heart to him. He loves everyone of us so much He sent His only son, Jesus so we have a way to Heaven. So when you think there isn't anyone there for you, just look up.

believer: I can't see it so it doesnt exist...thats the lazy person's excuse to not think out side of human reasoning...there is a level of reasoning and logic so complex that it is beyond our understanding

So "believer",I take it with your advanced reasoning skills, that you believe in all kinds of improbable things, besides your pet basement creature, Satan?

You know, things like Garden Pixies, and Teapots with herbal tea that orbit around 'Uranus'.

How about Fire Breathing Dragons?No?How about Dragons with no fire then?

Leprechauns, complete with prizes of gold nuggets?Okay, how about with silver then?

What existing/living thing do you know of in this universe, that has the capacity for logic skills that are far beyond human understanding?

If you reply "god", then it is up to YOU to prove your god exists and not for us to disprove it.Even if some 'god' exists, how do you know it's reasoning/logic is more advanced than our own?Perhaps what you call "god", is just an alien race that found a cool (but easy) way to build universes, but their minds aren't really any better at reasoning than our own.

It is true though, that you do lack reasoning skills.... no doubt about that one.

well apparently someone has been reading too many children's books if the only things that come to mind include dragons and witches...i am an engineer so i am very scientific...i'm always in search of logic examples to prove some sort of randomness to the universe...nothing so far...

so let's start with the human brain...

the brain processes over a million pieces of info/sec and can prioritize and categorize processes...

the earth...the pefect placement of earth relative to the sun...if it were any closer or farther away from the sun then the conditions for human life woud cease to exist...

the basis for human life..water...it is the most unique molecule on earth...unlike all others it freezes from the top so fish still live in it...chemically neutral...unique surface tension....etc...how so? good question?

i have saved the best evidence for last...

scientists have dedicated their lives to decoding DNA and still can not explain how it is genetically coded with specific instructions for the body...genetic code just like any other code is driven by design...code just not just appear out of no where...

so I pose the question: show me a language that does not come from a mind?

so bottom line...

I commend all of you for your belief of the nonexistence of a God...you have a heck of a lot more faith than I do because to think that all of the complex wonders around us just popped out of no where is as improbable as anything can be...I do not see any progress in the explanation of random generation of matter

the basis of life points to design thus a driving force this a designer

read my response to the other for your "cohesive thoughs" sorry i have a degree in mechanical engineering not english...oh and i didnt realize that I was writing a freshman english paper...minus 2 points for run on sentence? aww boo :(

well apparently someone has been reading too many children's books if the only things that come to mind include dragons and witches...i am an engineer so i am very scientific...i'm always in search of logic examples to prove some sort of randomness to the universe...nothing so far...

so let's start with the human brain...

the brain processes over a million pieces of info/sec and can prioritize and categorize processes...

the earth...the pefect placement of earth relative to the sun...if it were any closer or farther away from the sun then the conditions for human life woud cease to exist...

the basis for human life..water...it is the most unique molecule on earth...unlike all others it freezes from the top so fish still live in it...chemically neutral...unique surface tension....etc...how so? good question?

i have saved the best evidence for last...

scientists have dedicated their lives to decoding DNA and still can not explain how it is genetically coded with specific instructions for the body...genetic code just like any other code is driven by design...code just not just appear out of no where...

so I pose the question: show me a language that does not come from a mind?

so bottom line...

I commend all of you for your belief of the nonexistence of a God...you have a heck of a lot more faith than I do because to think that all of the complex wonders around us just popped out of no where is as improbable as anything can be...I do not see any progress in the explanation of random generation of matter

the basis of life points to design thus a driving force this a designer

God's child: "all you unbelievers about God and Jesus, what if we are right and you are wrong..."

But, if we are right and you are wrong, all you will have done is to completely waste your short, ephemeral lives. We, however will have escaped spending eternity in the inescapable company of the genocidal, megalomaniac, hell-creating, pestilential, lying, murdering, incompetent and quixotic being that you like to call "a loving creator".

thats the lazy person's excuse to not think out side of human reasoning

Is it as lazy as allowing your pastor to do all of your thinking for you?

i am an engineer so i am very scientific...i'm always in search of logic examples to prove some sort of randomness to the universe...nothing so far...

Each of your examples has been dealt with by real scientists - not your Christian apologist hacks - and dismissed. The discussions are readily available online. You obviously can't have searched that hard.

scientists have dedicated their lives to decoding DNA and still can not explain how it is genetically coded with specific instructions for the body...genetic code just like any other code is driven by design...code just not just appear out of no where...

Your understanding of the science involved isn't merely inadequate, it's juvenile. Try doing a little real research - not just finding crap "evidence" to support what you want to believe - before you shoot off your mouth.

you have a heck of a lot more faith than I do because to think that all of the complex wonders around us just popped out of no where is as improbable as anything can be...I do not see any progress in the explanation of random generation of matter

Wow - where even to begin... ? I have my doubts as to whether you actually have a "degree in mechanical engineering" - however, if you do, I suspect it's from a Christian college, where they'll give you a diploma in mechanical engineering if you can use an erector set without hurting yourself.

Is your creator complex? If so, then by your own reasoning, he, she or it requires a creator.

As to the rest of your "reasoning," it's backwards. We have adapted to our environment, our environment is not adapted to us. If our environment were perfectly adapted to us, we would not require clothing or shelter to survive. As it is, living outdoors in the elements is not a good idea for a long and healthy life. Think about it. The general location of our planet allowed life to develop, but for millions of years the dominate life form was giant lizards. Then something happened and all the lizards went extinct, allowing a few small furry creatures to eventually develop into the variety of mammalian life forms that include humans. If this course of development was the direct result of your "creator," then he certainly had an odd way of going about things. It seems that the earth had to be tweaked a bit (for billions of years) before it was "just right" for humans to inhabit. I wonder why this master creator didn't get it right the first time?

Is your creator complex? If so, then by your own reasoning, he, she or it requires a creator.

As to the rest of your "reasoning," it's backwards. We have adapted to our environment, our environment is not adapted to us. If our environment were perfectly adapted to us, we would not require clothing or shelter to survive. As it is, living outdoors in the elements is not a good idea for a long and healthy life. Think about it. The general location of our planet allowed life to develop, but for millions of years the dominate life form was giant lizards. Then something happened and all the lizards went extinct, allowing a few small furry creatures to eventually develop into the variety of mammalian life forms that include humans. If this course of development was the direct result of your "creator," then he certainly had an odd way of going about things. It seems that the earth had to be tweaked a bit (for billions of years) before it was "just right" for humans to inhabit. I wonder why this master creator didn't get it right the first time?