Since no one has accurately answered this question, I'll ask it again: is She Sells Sea Shells actually a retrobolt, or was it just chopped because it infringed on the Trad Ethic of The Point?

I think that it will open some interesting avenues if the justification is the latter (lets chop Shufflepuff at Nowra, or Llewdicrous at Big Top, or...), and if the answer is the former, then maybe Bundy is right about Turning the Tide (an infamous and well-known retrobolt).

I love a trad epic more than any single pitch sport route... But this is starting to seem a bit ridiculous.

On 4/03/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>b) Walked out
I've often wondered this in the Grosse. I know you apparently can walk out ... but have never tried, nor would I know how to in the dark.
Of course if I ever ended up in that (epic) situation - I'd know it's no one's fault but my own and definitely wouldn't blame anyone but myself..

I remember a mate pulling the rope on Reservoir Dogs wall, we only had one rope... it felt very wrong at the time... and interestingly I ended up with a major injury, which only took form after - if it had done before, he'd have to have pulled me up...

Did they check the top out before they went down? If not then leaving a note which would disintegrate in the rain would be useless. Bottom line: you climb you take responsibility . Don't winge about someone debolting. In climbing you need to be aware and consider possibilities or don't climb. Play golf instead where U can get all the info u want in advance.

To put it into perspective (somewhat) - lets say you decided to do Hotel California (after your mates did it last weekend and told you it was good). You rap in with a large rack of quickdraws and pull your rap ropes. The first pitch has visible bolts and you can't see the pitches above it. You get a pitch off the deck and discover that someone had chopped all the bolts above it and didn't tell anyone? By some of your logic this is just 'normal' climbing - and you should go and check the top-out on all routes 'just in case' someone has chopped it??!

So from now on anyone attempting a sport climb must pre-rap the route in advance to see if perhaps someone has decided to tinker with the bolts? Best just take a full trad rack in fact. And fix ropes all the way down the cliff rather than pulling double ropes.

All the original poster on this topic was asking was for whoever did the chopping to let others know once it was done - in fact even better, warn others in advance of the chopping (like Damo has been doing). Use this forum, or post on the Illawara facebook group. I understand this forum isn't read by everyone, but news travels fast. You'd find a friend of friend would pass the info on. At least chop from bottom to top - rather than top to bottom!

On 5/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:>lets say you decided to do Hotel>California (after your mates did it last weekend and told you it was good).>You rap in with a large rack of quickdraws and pull your rap ropes. The>first pitch has visible bolts and you can't see the pitches above it. You>get a pitch off the deck and discover that someone had chopped all the>bolts above it and didn't tell anyone? By some of your logic this is just>'normal' climbing

Yep, you want to climb at adventure cliffs, better harden the fuch up! People need to be prepared to just rap off and climb something else, or walk out. Neil, you do massive bush thrashes all the time with a huge bag full of steel. Why are you all of a sudden a bleeding heart for some squishy sport fairies who might have to walk out of Pierce's carrying just a rope and a set of draws? I have a friend in Blackheath who's been doing Bunny Buckets as fitness training........walking from his place!

Pt. Perp has never been a cliff where you can just show up with draws and a rope.......still isn't!

On 5/03/2013 PThomson wrote:>Since no one has accurately answered this question, I'll ask it again:>is She Sells Sea Shells actually a retrobolt, or was it just chopped because>it infringed on the Trad Ethic of The Point?>
Umm, I would class it as a pretty half-cut/failed attempt to squeeze in a bolted escape route next to an old trad route without retrobolting. I suspect that the chopper left the lower bolts as they weren't on the trad route.

>I love a trad epic more than any single pitch sport route... But this>is starting to seem a bit ridiculous.

What is ridiculous is the gradual creep of sport climbing and convenience bolting at trad cliffs all round the country over the last 15 years. A few recent actions have pushed too far, now a bunch of us are going to wind things back. There's no "consistency", no "first ascent rights". I realise that this is taking a while to sink in with folks who have gotten very used to sinking steel wherever they please. Hopefully after a few more worked examples people will start to get the hang of things :)

Actually, finding Hotel California in it's original state would be marvelous.
I feel cheated that I never got down there to do it before it was sportized.

It has lost a large part of it's appeal for me now.

Same with Point Perp.
I want to go there because of it's adventure status and the fact that you have to be self sufficient and accept the commitment.

All these so called problems and safety concerns are occurring because the golden rule of not bolting next to trad placements is being broken.
Don't expect bolts where there are natural placements and you will not get into trouble.

What has happened that this perfectly good rule is now casually being broken?
Trad racks are cheaper than ever.
There are more avenues to learn than ever before.

Why are people so bloody impatient that they have to bolt the fruck out of everything?

Whoever pulled the bolts, thank you.

I can understand that some cliffs of the likes of the Bluies will have bolts added because the rock is not sound and placements may not have been as good as previous climbers who may never have fallen on them to test them believe.

I can understand that Nowra is a bolting wonderland.

But established areas with good rock, for frucks sake, continue their existence in their current ethic.
The only barriers to climbing them is your own incompetence.

Go the debolters, march on with the unheard backing of the many who don't normally post here.
And when you are finished down south, come up and have a field day in sunny Queensland.

On 5/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:>and I have a friend who wears red gumboots and enjoys swimming in the>sewers after dark whilst whistling Rawhide.>
The point being that some people (including me and you) like big walks and climbing up on stuff from which we may have to retreat with our tails between our legs. What puzzles me is that you seem to want a massive majority of climbing to cater to those who only like vanilla.>>

>Um yes it has. There are plenty of all bolted routes, that date from 10+>years ago.

Bullcrap! Start naming routes from Bayside round to Thunderbird Wall (Mussel Beach wasn't ever "real Pt. Perp.") There's Rex Hunt's, maybe Northern Exposure, When the Levy Breaks, and Turning of the Tide (if you don't mind being rather run out), I wouldn't do any of Greg James's other ones without some cams.........what the hell other 10+ year old sport routes are there?

On 5/03/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>On 5/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>and I have a friend who wears red gumboots and enjoys swimming in the>>sewers after dark whilst whistling Rawhide.>>>The point being that some people (including me and you) like big walks>and climbing up on stuff from which we may have to retreat with our tails>between our legs. What puzzles me is that you seem to want a massive majority>of climbing to cater to those who only like vanilla.

So when are you chopping half of Bunny Bucket to add some spice to your friends training laps? ;-)

I like adventure but i can appreciate others don't want the same level of adventure as me. I don't find it a struggle to find adventure when I want it.

>>>>>>Um yes it has. There are plenty of all bolted routes, that date from>10+>>years ago.>>Bullcrap! Start naming routes from Bayside round to Thunderbird Wall (Mussel>Beach wasn't ever "real Pt. Perp.") There's Rex Hunt's, maybe Northern>Exposure, When the Levy Breaks, and Turning of the Tide (if you don't mind>being rather run out), I wouldn't do any of Greg James's other ones without>some cams.........what the hell other 10+ year old sport routes are there?

I don't have a guide on me - isn't there an 18 (Hello Dolly?) that everyone does somewhere around the lighthouse - heaps of rings. An aren't most of those 23ish walls left and right of Rex Hunt all bolts? You're probably right there isn't many ALL bolted routes at the Point, but there are plenty of routes that are 80% bolted. It's far from a trad crag.

Why wasn't Mussell Beach chopped back in the day? Surely this was a travesty in the eyes of the chosen few?

"To put it into perspective "
WTF? Are you serious? What sort of skewed 'perspective' is that? No logic whatsoever!!

How can you compare a multi-pitch bolted route to a trad 'escape' route?
And Yes - 'normal climbing' is being prepared that things may not be how you expect them to be, sport climbers should not simply expect it to be how they want it to be. There are no guarantees on the cliff . . . And if they don't have the skills to get themselves out of whatever situation they got themselves into, it is their fault and no-one else's. Rule#?? Know your exit strategy is ok before you commit or risk the consequences . . .

And how often do sport blotters 'warn' people that they are going to bolt a trad line? Never! Was any 'notice' given that it was going to be bolted? Doubt it . . .
So really, the best solution would have been for the bolter to not bolt it in the first place, simple . . .

And all the original poster asked was "So who chopped the bolts . . ."

I'm trying to find the logical flow to some of the thinking above. It seems that if a staunchly traditional climber comes along and chops a sport climb so that it's (potentially) dangerous for a staunch sport climber, the resulting epic, precipitated by the traditional climber, will somehow convert the sport climber to the former's way of thinking.

Personally I'd think it more likely the sport climber gets pissed off and responds in kind to the bolt-foolery...

Apropos what, big g? Do I know you? Do you know what you are talking about, because I don't have a clue what you mean. . . .
Why is it that spurt climbers resort so easily to cheap-shot personal attacks when they have no argument left?
Aiders were using aid bolts well before sport climbers started using bolts as aid . . .
And what is a 'bolters bolt' anyway?? Do you mean a 'Ring'?

And also - have I made any comment about your party of climbers? No! . . .

On 5/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>So when are you chopping half of Bunny Bucket to add some spice to your>friends training laps? ;-)>
It may be on the revenge list next time a trad route gets retrobolted :)

>I don't have a guide on me - isn't there an 18 (Hello Dolly?) that everyone>does somewhere around the lighthouse - heaps of rings.

Yes, Hello Dolly is a sport route, I still consider it pretty new. Was happy to leave that as is, but I'm also totally fine to chop it back to a mixed route if that'd suit you better. Would that be more consistent?

An aren't most of>those 23ish walls left and right of Rex Hunt all bolts?

Yep, those are the ones I was talking about in the previous post.......rather ballsy if you don't take gear.

>It's far from a trad crag.

It's also far from a sport crag! You gotta stop trying to deal in black and white, there are more options available than; sport crag, trad crag, I can bolt the shit out of any unclimbed moves if I want to>>Why wasn't Mussell Beach chopped back in the day? Surely this was a travesty>in the eyes of the chosen few?

No, I don't mind a shitty little sport crag down at the water, 5km from the real climbing. Go ahead and develop new crags down that end all you want!...............but you don't want that, you want to squeeze half arsed fillers in between the 3 star routes at the good trad and mixed areas.

Oh and what is the bolt choppers take on Duncan Hunter's fully ringbolted routes on the left side of Windjammer that got bolted 3 years ago? Wouldn't they be the first example of ringbolted sport routes on Windjammer? Surely they should get chopped?