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00:04:09 eli: Will's posts?
00:04:48 Yes, on c.l.s
00:04:52 Mr-Cat: Will makes a point of R6RS's REPL "animosity."
00:05:17 Though it always seems to confuse people.
00:05:43 [That's *not* a coincidence.]
00:06:13 What is not a coincidence?
00:06:28 eli: And what is c.l.s ?
00:06:38 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Connection timed out]
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00:07:26 arcfide: The fact that people gets confused by what he writes.
00:07:31 Mr-Cat: comp.lang.scheme
00:08:25 *mejja* doesn't get confused
00:08:26 eli: Not to open a can of worms, but do you think he is wrong regarding R6RS and REPLs?
00:09:16 arcfide: No, as usual, he is *technically* right -- in a sense that should really matter to almost nobody.
00:12:10 "You are technically correct, the best kind of correct." -- Futurama
00:12:35 klutometis: any tech needs (at least) 20 years to become reliable
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00:18:45 Adamant: isn't useful software a subset of reliable software; such that the useful criterion is possibly more stringent?
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00:19:10 klutometis: no, unreliable things are also useful. see: UDP.
00:19:18 "this software is reliably useless!"
00:19:29 or Twitter
00:19:44 (though it's much better now)
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00:19:55 Adamant: shouldn't we distinguish between software and protocols; i.e. reliable software can make use of unreliable protocols?
00:20:11 klutometis: then see: Twitter
00:20:28 the protocol wasn't busted AFAIK, the software was
00:21:08 i wish i found twitter more useful; but, alas, i wrote a mail->blog thing in five minutes and haven't switched
00:21:25 i'll check again in 2029 ;)
00:21:36 if unreliable technology wasn't useful in some sense, it probably wouldn't survive to get widely used and have reliability engineered into it
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00:21:51 Adamant: now that's interesting; i could buy that
00:22:06 and endure the 20 years of bug fixing to make it halfway decent
00:22:40 klutometis: I agree in the general case with Twitter, but it's useful for some things
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00:24:03 for instance, emergency services in CA are encouraging people to post their status and location to Twitter to notify friends and relatives where they are during an emergency to save bandwidth and traffic on a probably overloaded phone and local Internet system
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00:29:41 Adamant: the "sense" of "useful in some sense" is interesting; and not particularly well-defined
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01:12:59 incubot: would the fourth dimension weren't so rigorously linear
01:13:01 are there something special in canada called 'Fourth'?
01:13:08 heh!
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01:16:37 *Daemmerung* prefers suburbs with colorful names
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01:16:51 Hahahaha!
01:17:05 *arcfide* laughs an evil, maniacal laugh indicative of successful hacking.
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01:21:44 And, yes, I doubt I would have noticed had Clinger not made a stink. I haven't delved into R6RS since about a yeara go.
01:22:06 Maybe someday I'll give it another go.
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01:32:01 *arcfide* does a little happy dance.
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01:38:31 arcfide: stop it! you are not steve wozniak.
01:39:42 mejja: Sorry, it's hard to control myself.
01:54:12 *klutometis* loves trolling #python-dev
01:54:16 those cats are really high-strung
01:57:59 I have the feeling it will be painful to see Woz on tv
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02:02:29 mejja: what did you think?
02:02:48 klutometis: boring
02:02:56 yeah
02:03:04 much too practical for my taste
02:03:15 alas, that's enterprise for you
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02:05:55 What is this?
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02:12:52 arcfide: `this' refers to a great many things, even more than can be imagined
02:13:08 incubot: even more than are dreamed of in your philosophy, horatio
02:13:10 I wouldn't be so sure -- there are more things in the ffi, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your documentation.
02:13:19 klutometis: I was speaking of the "Much too practical" comment.
02:13:43 arcfide: every time i preset the python devs with some hideous inconsistency in their language, they always point me to some way around it
02:13:57 i resent that, for some reason; i'd rather them fix the inconsistency
02:14:04 Hahaha.
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02:17:55 oh, python
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02:21:18 incubot: The candidates can be aggregated along several dimensions.
02:21:20 is there a function which takes a function and one or more lists, and returns the aggregated application of each item in each list?
02:21:45 incubot: no, nor can one be written
02:21:47 His PhD dissertation was written on the construction of the compiler and the practicality of a unified intermediate language (stripped-down Scheme in CPS).
02:22:59 incubot: this is a first-class join
02:23:01 join #unix.se
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02:23:11 incubot: i meant "joint"
02:23:13 Well, a joint will still work.
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02:28:12 incubot: Chocolate is declared elected, since Chocolate has more votes than the quota
02:28:14 no, I've got it in normal size. Easier on the eyes and I had a big enough quota to print the entire Hyperspec.
02:28:53 incubot: Mommy is always right. Trust Mommy
02:28:55 I'm using ERC! my mommy says I'm special.
02:30:10 incubot: Neither of the remaining candidates meets the quota, so Sweets are eliminated. Strawberry is the only remaining candidate and so wins the final seat.
02:30:12 Yes, and it's a very good example. The final build-btree function (under "With these sweets...") shows how the top-level function to build a serial-number-tagged tree, without any mutation, looks identical to building one without the tags.
02:46:03 gnomon, compare revisions 14.70 and 14.71 of runtime/string.scm in MIT Scheme.
02:46:21 That's why I am a silly goose.
02:47:12 strawberry is perl
02:47:27 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme
02:48:15 http://strawberryperl.com/
02:52:03 man that strawberry looks tasty
02:53:39 *offby1* has some strawberry jam in the fridge
02:55:36 food porn
02:55:37 People who don't make silly mistakes take too long to write any useful software.
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02:57:15 oh good.
02:57:19 I'm still in the running, then
02:57:32 What about asking stupid questions, and stating the obvious? Those are also specialties of mine
02:58:07 minion: advice for offby1
02:58:08 offby1: #11902: You said it didn't work, but you didn't say what it would have done if it *had* worked.
02:58:37 *offby1* blubbers
03:00:50 meh, the curse of eternal nesting...
03:01:48 in many cases it doesn't make sense to create a global function, as it's only applicable in local scope.
03:01:48 what, you still live with your parents?
03:01:50 :-\
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03:02:15 But often to escape deeply nested forms, people factor out the inner loop into a global function.
03:02:48 Properly they want to just define a lambda right there that does what they want, but doing that makes an even deeper nesting.
03:03:11 zbigniew: I added you to "#scheme denizens": .
03:03:13 So you end up with a huge giant procedure that's impossible to comprehend and not even slightly modular.
03:04:01 .oO("gopher"?)
03:04:14 Or people want to test procedures separately, synx.
03:04:19 When I try abstracting out the logic using global defines, without being able to justify it, it also makes my life harder since I have to pass all the local variables to the global function.
03:04:21 arcfide: awesome, i always wanted to be known as the go-to guy, but gopher guy will do
03:04:38 Unless of course I put my common context in global variables.
03:04:54 But then I can't control which functions can access those variables.
03:05:01 Not unless I maintain the deep nesting.
03:05:47 that was poignant
03:06:23 Honestly I'm half inclined to make a thing that "add these variables to the global toplevel thingy" and when its scope exits it removes all those variables.
03:06:50 *foof* is almost surprised that firefox supports gopher
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03:08:09 yeah, they're constantly trying to dump it
03:08:27 Foof, perhaps the only things that is nice about Firefox.
03:09:51 haha
03:10:16 can see gopher in the Firefox proxy configuration...
03:11:16 So what would you say is not nice about Firefox?
03:13:49 so is it a bad idea to define then undefine global variables within a certain scope? something seems tricky about it I can't quite pinpoint
03:14:46 perhaps the fact that it's crazy
03:16:13 if you have a billion shared variables, why don't you (a) put them in a toplevel let statement then (set! proc (lambda args body)) within that scope, or (b) package them up in some sort of container object (record, vector, alist, whatever)
03:16:28 I have a better idea.
03:16:42 You should remove any semblance of information from the problem you are trying to solve and then moan vaguely about it in #scheme.
03:16:46 packaging them in a vector means I'd have to remember which index was what variable...
03:16:52 Use a record, not a vector.
03:16:57 i assume you have never heard of srfi-9
03:17:13 nope
03:17:48 get thee to http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-9/srfi-9.html
03:18:43 a starting point, at least. also, you realize you can define named (nonymous?) accessor procedures so you don't have to work with indices...
03:18:49 (Nymous?)
03:19:24 Onymous, maybe.
03:20:06 no I don't realize... reading the srfi I can get an inkling of what I could do, but then all I can see is a way to make a funny looking cons.
03:20:53 So turn that into a funny-looking triplet-cons, or a funny-looking vector of n elements where n is the number of values you need to pass about.
03:22:44 my problem is I end up with a function like (define (test parent create-object contents object-info set-property properties get-property-info) ...)
03:22:50 and it calls another function that might be called (define (explore-object parent create-object contents object-info set-property properties get-property-info current-room carrying property-modify) ...)
03:23:14 which maybe calls a function called (define (do-thingy parent create-object contents object-info set-property properties get-property-info current-room carrying property-modify cat hat thing1 thing2) ...)
03:23:44 So I keep having to add on parameters and it just looks ugly, and heaven forbid I get any out of order.
03:24:00 mixing up the object-info procedure with set-property procedure could be ugly.
03:25:02 And all because do-thingy calls a function that requires the use of say create-room or something. Almost like I was setting up some sort of global context for procedures to execute in.
03:26:14 synx: Did you read that SRFI, carefully?
03:28:05 Alright y'all, it's off to bed fo rme.
03:28:06 See ya!
03:28:18 bye
03:28:30 Reading is very different from comprehending.
03:28:45 no doubt
03:28:56 i read all kinds of stuff but i'm still dumb as a post
03:29:27 synx: DEFINE-RECORD and the like allow you to create something similiar to structures in other languages.
03:30:25 for those who wish to give feedback to my sockets code. I'd appreciate an email if anyone has feedback on the whole thing in general.
03:30:33 hmm... so that means I can avoid all those procedures by...
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04:01:52 is there some form of destructive cons?
04:02:19 What does that mean?
04:02:35 cons returns a new list
04:02:36 Like a regular cons, except it blows stuff up.
04:02:45 BOOM!
04:02:46 I want a cons that modifies a list
04:03:10 So (define (cons! a d pair) (set-car! pair a) (set-cdr! pair d) pair)?
04:03:40 ah something like that will work, thanks! (I'm a total lisp newbie)
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04:04:05 Are you sure? I doubt whether that will solve any but an extremely select few useful problems.
04:04:47 err
04:04:58 that cons! destroys the cdr?
04:05:26 It does precisely what I wrote.
04:05:44 (no more, no less)
04:05:51 thanks
04:06:08 Like I said I'm new and what you wrote versus what it does isn't entirely obvious to me
04:06:18 Perhaps you would like to describe more precisely what you want?
04:06:28 ok...
04:06:51 Maybe it would help for you to show an example program, and its intended results.
04:07:06 (define mylist (list 5)) (cons! mylist 4) mylist
04:07:17 I want that to return (4 5)
04:08:12 How about this program?
04:08:15 (define (f) '())
04:08:20 (cons! (f) 4)
04:08:20 (f)
04:08:38 (Write (list) rather than '() if that is more familiar to you.)
04:10:49 What should that program yield?
04:10:57 (4)
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04:11:18 I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.
04:13:08 okay, I guess I need to think about my problem differently then
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04:13:59 It is better to consider what you can do with the new list than to insist on destroying the old.
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04:27:32 ,(list)
04:27:41 rudybot: eval (list)
04:27:42 ozy`: ; Value: ()
04:31:44 ozy`: I'll kick you.
04:31:52 ozy`: I love it how Apple voted Yes without comments for OOXML.
04:32:18 *Riastradh* blinks.
04:32:19 rudybot: your mom voted Yes without comments
04:32:19 ozy`: ?
04:33:20 ozy`: Let's have sects.
04:33:59 he just hasn't been the same since Eli got his paws on him.
04:34:52 rudybot: eval (begin (define desu ('desu)) (set-cdr! desu desu) desu)
04:34:52 ozy`: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: desu (no arguments)
04:35:04 wat
04:35:09 oh
04:35:22 rudybot: eval (begin (define desu '(desu)) (set-cdr! desu desu) desu)
04:35:22 ozy`: error: reference to undefined identifier: set-cdr!
04:35:24 Was that a random jordanb quote, offby1?
04:35:27 FINE
04:35:43 Don't mutate literal data, ozy`!
04:36:26 Riastradh: psh. I'll mutate things if I feel like it. this isn't haskell....
04:36:43 You may mutate data that you constructed, but not literal data.
04:37:08 hmm
04:37:09 Riastradh: they're all random, and they're mostly from jordanb, but I don't know which is which, unless I look it up
04:37:24 rudybot: eval (define 4 5)
04:37:24 ozy`: error: eval:1:8: define: bad syntax at: 4 in: (define 4 5)
04:37:35 I am having quite a bit of trouble with this function...
04:37:39 rudybot: init r5rs
04:37:40 *offby1: your sandbox is ready
04:37:43 rudybot: eval (begin (define desu '(desu)) (set-cdr! desu desu) desu)
04:37:43 *offby1: ; Value: #0={desu . #0#}
04:37:50 rudybot: init scheme
04:37:51 *offby1: your sandbox is ready
04:37:54 rudybot: eval (begin (define desu '(desu)) (set-cdr! desu desu) desu)
04:37:54 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: set-cdr! in module: 'program
04:38:24 lets say I have a list of lists... that looks like this: ("l" ("g" ("a" ("s" "cat") ("s" "dog"))) ("a" ("s" "bird") ("s" "fish")) ("b" 1))
04:39:10 and I'm trying to create a new list that has the count of "a" lists between each "g" list
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04:39:24 I am trying to tag each list with a character at the beginning
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04:39:41 gah, sounds complex
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04:41:01 I have some preliminary code, but I just can't formulate it in a lisp/scheme way
04:42:29 I don't even really understand the problem.
04:42:37 If I were you, I'd start by writing test cases :)
04:42:46 also that'd help explain the problem to dullards like myself
04:42:57 mr-slave: countdown for #scheme
04:42:57 #scheme: 1234327377... another two days, eighteen hours left
04:42:58 offby1: dullard.
04:44:02 http://pastebin.com/m367ecef1
04:44:03 Riastradh: if I'm not supposed to mutate a literal, why doesn't the type system stop me? ;)
04:44:25 *ozy`* has no regard for good style when it comes to lisp of any variety
04:44:46 > (set-cdr! '(a . b) 'c)
04:44:46 Error: vm-exception
04:44:46 (set-cdr! '(a . b) 'c)
04:45:08 ah nvm
04:45:15 I think my problem is too difficult to explain
04:45:17 Riastradh: that doesn't really count as mutating literal data...
04:45:17 gar
04:45:25 Riastradh: er.... I mean
04:45:26 Yes, it does, ozy`.
04:45:38 It doesn't matter whether I gave an intermediate name to the literal list before passing it to SET-CDR!.
04:45:47 Riastradh: rather, if that's what you meant by mutating literal data, then... really now.
04:46:28 It is no different from what you wrote earlier, for the purpose of discussing mutation of literal data.
04:46:42 For completeness,
04:46:45 > (begin (define desu '(desu)) (set-cdr! desu desu) desu)
04:46:45 Error: vm-exception
04:46:45 (set-cdr! '(desu) '(desu))
04:46:58 well it works fine in chicken....
04:47:17 It works accidentally in Chicken, and it may lead to surprising behaviour, including segmentation faults or confusing results.
04:47:31 ozy`: How exactly is it that good style should not be used "when it comes to lisp of any variety"?
04:48:05 Compare (define (f) '(foo)) and (define (f) (list 'foo)), with (begin (set-cdr! (foo) 5) (foo)).
04:48:08 eli: did I advocate -against- good style? I just said I had no regard for it
04:48:14 Sorry, (begin (set-cdr! (f) 5) (f)).
04:48:36 Riastradh: okay. that's good to know
04:48:46 So: Don't mutate literal data.
04:49:00 ozy`: OK then, the question still stands -- why?
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04:56:20 eli: can't be bothered to care. not in lisp.
04:57:22 ozy`: That's not an answer.
04:57:41 'e's on a tear!
04:58:54 eli: then let me elaborate. the forces which would conspire to motivate me towards good style do not coincide with the ones responsible for making me want to (occasionally) hack lisp.
04:58:55 FWIW, I'm slightly pissed at this extravagant display of moronism -- and he's actually expecting people to "help" him.
04:59:14 I don't mind if nobody helps me
04:59:25 Then please vanish.
04:59:26 *Daemmerung* is confused
05:00:00 He didn't ask anyone to help him, eli. I am guilty of offering unsolicited advice on seeing a mistake.
05:00:48 I, for one, type into this channel only for the pleasure of seeing my own words echoed.
05:01:37 Daemmerung: things like "why doesn't the type system stop me?" is the same kind of moronic statements like "we don't need no type checkers".
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05:02:28 Daemmerung: wow, we have a lot in common
05:02:34 eli: I didn't ask you to explain! I like being confused! How dare you explain!!
05:02:38 I built a whole bot to magnify the amusement
05:02:49 offby1: It is a comfort to have companions in woe.
05:04:06 Daemmerung: fwiw, I'm as amused as you are from seeing your echos (and Riastradh's and offby1's), ozy` was in contrast as amusing as the kids on offby1's lawn.
05:04:09 "Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased. Thus we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson
05:04:23 WHAT!
05:04:26 *offby1* gets his shotgun
05:04:36 *Daemmerung* fetches the rock salt
05:04:36 *eli* plugs his ears
05:04:39 A denture-shotgun, like a potato-gun?
05:04:57 *offby1* returns huffing and puffing
05:05:01 they must have fled
05:05:16