The Labour Party has always been an evolving entity. The party of Bevan was a very different one from that of Attlee which in turn differed from that of Benn and Foot and so on. New Labour was just another stage in that morphosis.

The constant pining for 'core values' is tiresome. Labour, or any party, changes over time. The Conservative manifesto released this week had phrases in it that would have had Thatcher scratching her head for example. To be relevant a party has to adapt to the society it lives in, the SNP have done so with great success in recent years and a part of that has been shifting their social and economic stance dramatically.

Corbyn, Abott, McDonnell et al are stuck in a time warp and their performance is reflective of that.

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

I've criticised every single one of those listed across the forum. This thread is specifically about Labour hence my target within it.

I'd happily tear apart almost everyone at the forefront of all the major parties currently. There is a complete talent vacuum at Westminster.

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

I think that makes​ it all the more galling that the Tories aren't up to much but Labour can barely lay a glove on them. Corbyn, McDonnell & Abbott together with the names you mention has to be the most uninspiring bunch of senior politicians ever.

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

Unfortunately, it shows where we are just now. If Labour had a more personable leader, with that manifesto and campaign, they'd be destroying the Tories.

You criticise the performance of Labour but what about May, Hammond and Fallon or Rudd? They refuse to meet people or even do interviews with Sky news. They've just produced an uncosted manifesto but the MSM have ignored that. Labours manifesto offers real change regardless of the personalities involved

Which makes even less sense for Corbin to pass up the leader debate. The media are horrifically right wing at present and he had watching millions as a platform yet choose not to go on. If he was serious he would have been on there highlighting May not being present. Incredible own goal IMO.

The last seats predictions based on polling that had Labour on 34% had them taking between 177 and 190 seats. Even allowing for a comeback to rival Lazarus in Scotland that would leave just a bit of a deficit.

PM Awards General Poster of The Year 2015, 2016, 2017. Probably robbed in other years

Labour now up to 39% in England if Scotland comes onboard polls would level. Clearly the positive message is getting through. Corbyn could pull off yet another stunning victory

Saw that earlier. It has crossed my mind to go Labour this time out, only to be able to have voted for the most left manifesto and leader that we've seen for many years and are likely to see for many years.

The idea though that Kezia will 'commandeer' my vote as one against an indyref puts me off. I think the party on Scotland has missed an opportunity by trying to out-union the Tories.

I'll put my cards on the table to say that if Corbyn won and if I saw the UK moving in a direction to a better, more social democratic and more progressive country, I wouldn't necessarily be too concerned by indyref.

Saw that earlier. It has crossed my mind to go Labour this time out, only to be able to have voted for the most left manifesto and leader that we've seen for many years and are likely to see for many years.

The idea though that Kezia will 'commandeer' my vote as one against an indyref puts me off. I think the party on Scotland has missed an opportunity by trying to out-union the Tories.

I'll put my cards on the table to say that if Corbyn won and if I saw the UK moving in a direction to a better, more social democratic and more progressive country, I wouldn't necessarily be too concerned by indyref.

If the opposite happens, it'll be business as usual for me.

This is fairly close to my own thoughts. I am a bit keener on the indepence side of things tho!

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"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
--Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback & sports analyst.

Saw that earlier. It has crossed my mind to go Labour this time out, only to be able to have voted for the most left manifesto and leader that we've seen for many years and are likely to see for many years.

The idea though that Kezia will 'commandeer' my vote as one against an indyref puts me off. I think the party on Scotland has missed an opportunity by trying to out-union the Tories.

I'll put my cards on the table to say that if Corbyn won and if I saw the UK moving in a direction to a better, more social democratic and more progressive country, I wouldn't necessarily be too concerned by indyref.

If the opposite happens, it'll be business as usual for me.

That's pretty much bang on where I am.

I'm also curious as to what the Scottish labour manifesto will hold. Is there a chance that many policies will be omitted or altered from the labour manifesto of last week?

I also find myself agreeing with you that a progressive UK government making decisions I agree with, or at least couldn't feasibly see a different outcome at hollyrood, would dampen my appetite for independence. Conversely, if this is the most progressive manifesto a major party can put forward and it's overwhelmingly rejected in favour of a poorly constructed conservative manifesto focused on tax breaks for the wealthy and cutting support to kids and the elderly then I'm not sure where that leaves us...

These last few posts are interesting, and would suggest that the SNP's biggest threat (at least to some of its supppeters on here) would be a labour revival.

Ironic how symbiotic the SNP amd Tory relationship is becoming.

I've said it before.... There's many SNP voters that would see SNP well behind Labour, Tory or Green as their 1st choice when voting in an iScotland Holyrood election.

After a probably honeymoon victory in the 1st election for SNP I could easily see Labour in power, I also think a Scottish flavour of Tories will have a proper revival and could form a government at some time as well (they'd have finally broken the link with Thatcher). It's one of the reasons I get a wee bit () fed up when folks go on about SNP performance as a reason to vote against independence, it's not really related.

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
--Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback & sports analyst.

I've said it before.... There's many SNP voters that would see SNP well behind Labour, Tory or Green as their 1st choice when voting in an iScotland Holyrood election.

After a probably honeymoon victory in the 1st election for SNP I could easily see Labour in power, I also think a Scottish flavour of Tories will have a proper revival and could form a government at some time as well (they'd have finally broken the link with Thatcher). It's one of the reasons I get a wee bit () fed up when folks go on about SNP performance as a reason to vote against independence, it's not really related.

I agree, and your point about snp performance is correct imo. But when one party becomes so closely identified with it, its hard to separate the two.

To keep this thread on topic though, i find the lab situation interesting, as it could be that if corbyn does well enough, he can firm up his grip, without winning, which would be the worst outcome for the centreist wing of the lab party.

A HUGE banner saying Vote Conservative. Only when you read the small print...

#Persevered
Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

I agree, and your point about snp performance is correct imo. But when one party becomes so closely identified with it, its hard to separate the two.

To keep this thread on topic though, i find the lab situation interesting, as it could be that if corbyn does well enough, he can firm up his grip, without winning, which would be the worst outcome for the centreist wing of the lab party.

I WAS trying to keep it on topic... Honest!

In a long winded way I was trying to say that if Scottish Labour was running on an independence ticket they'd grab a good many seats off the SNP

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
--Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback & sports analyst.

I'm also curious as to what the Scottish labour manifesto will hold. Is there a chance that many policies will be omitted or altered from the labour manifesto of last week?

I also find myself agreeing with you that a progressive UK government making decisions I agree with, or at least couldn't feasibly see a different outcome at hollyrood, would dampen my appetite for independence. Conversely, if this is the most progressive manifesto a major party can put forward and it's overwhelmingly rejected in favour of a poorly constructed conservative manifesto focused on tax breaks for the wealthy and cutting support to kids and the elderly then I'm not sure where that leaves us...

It's very similar but with a Scottish theme. It will contain renewal of Trident but does not say when.

Is there any real evidence off this? Also it would costs votes as well. I'm not sure a Labour uturn on independence is a vote winner for Labour

Evidence? not really to be honest.

Its based on my own position and many that I've spoken too, its a mixture of mates in pubs after games, at work etc... SNP still seem to be ahead but easily 50% maybe a bit more would lean towards Labour, Tories & Green (in that order with Labour being the most significant). Just my opinion mind! but I do think there's something in it.. is it enough though??

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
--Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback & sports analyst.

Its based on my own position and many that I've spoken too, its a mixture of mates in pubs after games, at work etc... SNP still seem to be ahead but easily 50% maybe a bit more would lean towards Labour, Tories & Green (in that order with Labour being the most significant). Just my opinion mind! but I do think there's something in it.. is it enough though??

Fair enough. I'm just not convinced that a change of policy would be a vote winner across the U.K. If independence ever happens then we could see a complete change in politics in Scotland but probably not for at least one term after the start.

Fair enough. I'm just not convinced that a change of policy would be a vote winner across the U.K. If independence ever happens then we could see a complete change in politics in Scotland but probably not for at least one term after the start.

Yup. 100% agree with that.

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"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
--Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback & sports analyst.