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One easy example, say there is an aikido instructor who is 90 years old. He has been training since Ueshiba Sensei's days, and he still trains and teaches. He has developed a way of using his body that allows him to express an unusual amount of power for his age and size. And to connect with opponents in such a way as to negate their power.

Are you telling me I shouldn't train with him because I at 47 can kick his butt at 90+ years of age??? Heck, that might apply to most of Ueshiba's senior students now...

Then you have to decide (after his failure to deliver masagatsu agatsu on you) if his claim about having martial skills was accurate and if his training methodology is one you want to follow.

Let me put an example:

Imagine there is a person who claims to have "martial skill", in fact he has developed an interesting approach to Aikido practise. Something in the line of "This approach opens up many new ways of understanding and practicing aikido. Here are a few core concepts which I’ve discovered from this approach which I call “short-range Aikido.”....

Something in the line of "This approach opens up many new ways of understanding and practicing aikido. Here are a few core concepts which I've discovered from this approach which I call "short-range Aikido."....

Oh my! Always a classical... Sometimes I just feel sorry about him. Not that he didn't deserve it...

The fundamental mistake made there was trying to fix aikido with something other than AIKI.

Ron Tisdale's point is valid.
If you can accept that there are levels of ability in aiki. (It's a fact, just if you can accept that fact.)
And if you can accept that most people in martial arts would greatly benefit from learning aiki directly. (Another fact, and the only question is if it is accepted.)

Then it is clear that someone with more than zero of a clue about aiki - say in their 90s (but could be 35) who might not yet be able to stand up to the UFC champion or just a strong external martial artist in his prime - would STILL have something to offer even if they couldn't kick that person's ass.

But I still like the question.

And it brings the conversation back to: so what can you do that would help martial artists in general and how long to be able to teach it? Which is where my questions come from. And since I didn't notice a lot of "yes, yes, yes" to those questions, instead of invalidating them, come up with better ones if you like or recognize that this is the basic idea of how more and more people will be judging martial artist and martial artists. I'm not looking to win a debate. It's just the obvious future from where I am standing. Saying you can't judge basic movements out of context is not holding much water in terms of a persuasive argument to me.

Question: What can you do to a man that you can't throw, one that you can hit as hard as you can and you freakin' bounce off

Hi Mark,

Do you mind clarifying that last bit? What kind of hitting are you doing, to what target, and what do you mean by "bounce off"?

Also if you don't mind, I'm curious as to the weight difference between yourself and Dan. The way this thread reads, Dan should be wearing a cape and fighting crime, so I'd like to get a better assessment of what's really being claimed.

I'm happy to forget about the man, but this kind of man-crush display is worse than fantasy football at the office. Seriously, I am interested in the skills, but it also matters how much you weigh relative to Dan for the same reason it matters that Chen Bing was outweighed by 40% in the videos on YouTube. It helps put a perspective on what's being done, because otherwise you're making Dan sound superhuman. It's kinda hard to "forget the man" when you guys make it sound like you've got a T-shirt with his picture on it, and an 8 x 10 glossy on the nightstand next to a 4 x 6 of the wife and kids.

Do you mind clarifying that last bit? What kind of hitting are you doing, to what target, and what do you mean by "bounce off"?

Also if you don't mind, I'm curious as to the weight difference between yourself and Dan. The way this thread reads, Dan should be wearing a cape and fighting crime, so I'd like to get a better assessment of what's really being claimed.

Sure thing. He said: "here throw me anyway you want" and stood there with his arms out in a natural posture. I tried to effect kuzushi in many ways but was unsuccessful.....tried o soto gari, seionage, ad nauseum and nothing worked.

Then during a discussion about using the breath he asked me to punch him in the gut as hard as I could. I hit him with 50% power and he gave me this look like "are you a pansy?" and said !HIT ME!. So I hit him with a rising hook to his side with all my power and my fist bounced off. It was like hitting an inflated tire.

Weight difference: I'm 5'8" and 187lbs and he's probably 5'11" and 220-230ish (guess). I'm probably 12-13 yrs younger than him as well and pretty athletic. BTW, the absolute value of the weight is only one component of it. It's how that weight is used.

Sure thing. He said: "here throw me anyway you want" and stood there with his arms out in a natural posture. I tried to effect kuzushi in many ways but was unsuccessful.....tried o soto gari, seionage, ad nauseum and nothing worked.

Then during a discussion about using the breath he asked me to punch him in the gut as hard as I could. I hit him with 50% power and he gave me this look like "are you a pansy?" and said !HIT ME!. So I hit him with a rising hook to his side with all my power and my fist bounced off. It was like hitting an inflated tire.

Weight difference: I'm 5'8" and 187lbs and he's probably 5'11" and 220-230ish (guess). I'm probably 12-13 yrs younger than him as well and pretty athletic. BTW, the absolute value of the weight is only one component of it. It's how that weight is used.

Mark

OK, thanks.I hadn't heard anything about "punch resistance" stuff before, though it may have slipped my notice. How does that relate to breath?

Really. Is this the sort of enlightening dialogue "talk about the skills, not the man" leads to?

Dan
I imagine Rob is hesitant about talking above his skill level. Structure, connection, use of connection in movement comes first, then skills in using in / yo ho to support the body in movement, and in the mix, breath power is trained as it enhances- and in it's own way manipulates- and adds to connecting the whole body. Actually most of that training never stops.

FWIW
I'm 6', 218lb. I think you-like so many people miss the point of weight or size in assessing skill. I have had it work for me in just the opposite situation many times. Most in particular with ICMA guys, who looking at me, made assumptions-from my background and size-that they were dealing with a big, muscular, grappling meathead. In so doing it has been delightful to have seen them make some rather hilarious mistakes in pre-judging what they were going to get by way of feel.
You see, softness and ability to manipulate, absorb, redirect and change and slam very fast in movement is NOT to be judged by size, Dan. It is to be judged by training and experience. Regardless of size you can feel softness at a touch. You can't fake it, and you don't get to mask it by technique. In fact it can be shown strictly by absorbing and redirecting without ever once pouring it on or hitting. And that said...on any other day a small guy could be better than me and tune me with the same skills. Of the various advantages available- size wouldn't make it to my top ten. In fact the guy who impressed me most...wasn't big at all.

Since the thread was originally about DR I think its worth suggesting again that folks go out and feel. For those looking for internal power / aiki-DR needs to be sorted out by schools.

Since you asked about the breath in relation to getting punched...
Certain breath training can give you a stomach that I imagine doesn't feel like most people you know. Including an active use of a very mobile center that can moved around at will. Punching it or trying to manipulate a trained guy through his center usually proves to be a different feel for most folks. Even pushing a guy like that with two hands, by his chest, up and over at a 45 deg. angle backward and then trying to throw him from there can be a fun workout.

Even talking about something like this, which is relatively well known in internal arts seems kind of silly. It's not new, its just new ....here.These skills are known and are out there. Which again is why I always tell people to keep looking, testing, researching and finding things out.

Really. Is this the sort of enlightening dialogue "talk about the skills, not the man" leads to?

WTF? Okay. I'm feeling froggy this morning. I'll jump.

Enlightened dialogue implies 2 ways right?!

The whole air inflates a tire, and people breathe in air in such a way to help take punches didn't seem like any of the steps on the way to enlightenment to me. Why the hell were you asking Mark? He was impressed. If he knew how to do it, maybe you can enlighten me with why would you expect him to be so impressed?

The idea about if Chen Bing were bigger that he would still have impressive skills but they would just be trickier to spot for some - wasn't supposed to knock over a genius with a feather either...

Sorry for dumbing things down too much for the general level of sophistication in terms of the "enlightened dialogue".

FWIW
I'm 6', 218lb. I think you-like so many people miss the point of weight or size in assessing skill. I have had it work for me in just the opposite situation many times. Most in particular with ICMA guys, who looking at me, made assumptions-from my background and size-that they were dealing with a big, muscular, grappling meathead.

Hi Dan,

I know it may sound like I'm crediting your weight or something, but I'm not. I think it's a fairly normal question to ask under the circumstances, for the same reason it's interesting to know how much Chen Bing weighs relative to the guy he was working with. I understand that the skills are not weight-dependent, Chen Bing proves that all by himself, and I haven't see anyone say "Dan can do what he does because he's a big guy." But since there's no video, the only way to get a mental picture of what's being demonstrated is to ask for details. For example Mark said he couldn't throw you from a "natural position." I'm not sure if that means the "whizz-taking stance" as someone put it (funny, but useful since's it's pretty unambiguous ) or with one foot back. I also don't know how actively you're adjusting to whatever he does in terms of redirecting pressure and so forth. Anyway, just points of interest since all we have here is the written word.

Since you asked about the breath in relation to getting punched...
Certain breath training can give you a stomach that I imagine doesn't feel like most people you know. Including an active use of a very mobile center that can moved around at will. Punching it or trying to manipulate a trained guy through his center usually proves to be a different feel for most folks. Even pushing a guy like that with two hands, by his chest, up and over at a 45 deg. angle backward and then trying to throw him from there can be a fun workout.

Fair enough. From what I've read, it sounds like you would use this "mobile center" to sort of alter the angle you're being pushed at but without moving the entire body?

I know it may sound like I'm crediting your weight or something, but I'm not. I think it's a fairly normal question to ask under the circumstances, for the same reason it's interesting to know how much Chen Bing weighs relative to the guy he was working with. I understand that the skills are not weight-dependent, Chen Bing proves that all by himself, and I haven't see anyone say "Dan can do what he does because he's a big guy." But since there's no video, the only way to get a mental picture of what's being demonstrated is to ask for details. For example Mark said he couldn't throw you from a "natural position." I'm not sure if that means the "whizz-taking stance" as someone put it (funny, but useful since's it's pretty unambiguous ) or with one foot back. I also don't know how actively you're adjusting to whatever he does in terms of redirecting pressure and so forth. Anyway, just points of interest since all we have here is the written word.

Hi Dan
My position or stance doesn't matter much. Depending on the skill, speed, pressure, and change-ups of the guy trying to throw us we may not move, move a little or a lot.
In a demo:
a) We don't allow them in for kuzushi for a few attemts-which usually illicits quite a reaction. DO NOT confuse that with stiff-arm jujutsu. We are relaxed and fluid, even soft of feel.
b) Allow them in but as much as they try they still can't get kuzushi
c) We let them get kuzushi, let them get in for tsukuri and then we stand there and don't go over
d.) We then make it more real and everytime they try a throw...we throw them.
The key to consider is the reactions and comments about what it feels like. I've not met a man yet who confused what we were doing with muscle. They all knew it was different. What you also need to take into consideration is that they have seen me with large guys trying to throw me as well. Moreover they have seen me-try to throw smaller guys who train here.

So, size isn't the topic, nor is yet another method of learning jujutsu (yawn). On any day, any body can beaten for various reasons. This isn't about what I can do. It's about what - you - can learn to do. "You" meaning the public. It's about the potentials of internal power / aiki as thee skill. not waza As one Grappler said to me when we were fooling around with some juts...."I don't really care about that. It's not why I am here. I want the internal skills."
Smart guy, who knew how to make the best use of his time.

Quote:

Fair enough. From what I've read, it sounds like you would use this "mobile center" to sort of alter the angle you're being pushed at but without moving the entire body?

Well, skills are not to be confused internal strength. they are two different but related topics. I'd think more on the lines of what enables me to do that. What it is connecting, and what it can do within my body to affect someone else. Though "altering angles" is an interesting phrase, angle changing alone would never cover it.

Stopping all Daito ryu and aikido "effects" on you will take a few years of study here in training to connect your body. The only trouble is what to do with it when you want to go play with the other boys and girls. You'll have to let yourself fall apart, or stand there looking at people while they try and throw you with waza that will no longer work on you.
If that's your goal its pretty simple to accomplish. After that there are much more serious stresses to put on your structure, then more serious stresses still in dealing with someone who knows what you know.

What can I say. I am a simple man with simple needs and simple goad. complex things would create more things that could go wrong and usually at the worst moment. I follow the KISS principle. stopping daito ryu that is playing with your natural muscle reflex will be hard, do able, but hard.

I know it's "normal" to ask about size. It's just that we are discussing abnormal skills. Sorry if I'm losing you with my fancy talk.

I have to say that I'm enjoying this discussion, Rob. Go back sometime to some of the posts between you and me (and involving some other people, too) and take a look at what I said and what some of the responses were to me, in relation to these topics about the same skills. I suspect you'll understand now more the simplicity of the things I was saying back then, but the point is not so much to get someone to cringe at what was said "back in the day".... but to caution that what is said among all parties currently is also tomorrow's archives.

So if the discussions are kept evenhanded and factually cautious today, I think everyone can look back happily tomorrow. And I'm not saying this for much more of a reason than I think things are going good at the moment and to encourage everyone to keep it so.

I am fairly certain we can BOTH find more embarrassing posts strolling down memory lane. But I really don't mind you enjoying whatever vindication you are getting out of this debate. I do appreciate you coming and raising awareness.

I am fairly certain we can BOTH find more embarrassing posts strolling down memory lane.

Well, as I said, I'm only tangentially pointing to old posts, Rob. I'm mainly talking about current and future posts, using the old posts as something to take as an example of why people should focus on the issue and how today's discussions can look to future examiners. Just as people in the past discussions thought that the final word was set in stone, what's known today is not the last word either. That's my point. But then, each to his own.

Mike Sigman wrote: With no movement of my body I can will different forces to my hands so that you feel a push (at any angle) or a pull (at any angle) or a lift or a downweighting. That's how much my hands must be connected to my middle and how much the mind is involved.

That was a fun read

Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: I did something this Tuesday that I can still hardly believe.

Dan remembers Rob standing Tues with his hands on me and for the first time-sending force into me at will without moving.
Seems to me you two have come together nicely.