What do you guys think? Is it a major plot hole that Tolkien forgot about or was flying on eagles to Mordor simply not an option.

I can present some arguments for and against

Is a plothole

-The eagles were used in the hobbit, rescued Gandalf on top of Orthanc and rescued Sam and Frodo from Mordor. If they were already used like that then why the discrepency?
-the book doesn't even mention the possiblity which suggest Tolkien forgot about this option..?

Flying on eagles wasn't an option

-The eagles wouldn't allow to be used as such somehow or they would under the influence of the ring easily
-Eagles flying over Mordor would be too conspicuous and orc archers would easily shoot them down or they would be attacked by Nazgul on the fell beasts. Walking would allow for a lower chance of being detected
-maybe Sauron could throw fireballs at them..? lol
-maybe the eagles were too busy with wars in the north?

I'm not in anyway insulting LOTR! I'm just interested in what you guys think. I also haven't read the Similarion (I don't think I could finish it lol...) so I'm not really that knowledgeable about Middle Earths early history.

[quote="Eldorion":1hgmxq95]The purpose of the Fellowship of the Ring, and the linchpin of the entire strategy decided on in Rivendell, was to destroy the Ring in a mission of [i:1hgmxq95]secrecy[/i:1hgmxq95].

Taking the Eagles might have worked, I will grant that. It may have been a successful mission and allowed the Ring to be destroyed earlier than it "actually" was. But it would have sacrificed secrecy and drastically increased the changes of the Ring being captured. When you have the fate of the world hanging in the balance, you don't want to take any unnecessary chances.

Eagles are, clearly, far more noticeable than Hobbits or other travelers on foot. We don't know how exactly Gandalf planned to get into Mordor (presumably it didn't involve the breaking of the Fellowship), but we can surmise that they would have gone through a mountain pass or valley some where. We know of only three (the Morannon, Cirith Ungol, and the Nameless Pass), but it stands to reason that there were more. Not ideal ones perhaps (though Cirith Ungol itself was not ideal), but mountains are not impenetrable and continuous walls of rock.

An Eagle flying through the air would be easily noticed by Orcs or other watchers (remember the sinister and sorcerous ones at the Tower of Cirith Ungol). Travelers on foot could sneak around much more easily, scout ahead (especially with a ranger), and slip by unnoticed (remember how quiet hobbits are?). The Eagles [i:1hgmxq95]might[/i:1hgmxq95] have been able to slip by unnoticed, but it would have been far more likely that they would have been caught. Once inside Mordor (if they even make it), there is still the chance that the Eagles could be caught. There's also the threat of the Nazgul's fell beasts, and archers.

The "classic" Eagle plan, as outlined in the YouTube video, would not work for a couple of reasons. First, the Ring could not just be dropped into the caldera; it had to be taken into the Crack of Doom itself. As the name implies, this is an enclosed space inside the mountain. An Eagles likely would not fit inside, so it would have to bring have a rider. This would limit the height to which it could fly (the rider would need to breathe) and its agility during a fight. Yet more possibilities for failure. Second, a giant Eagle landing on the slope of Mount Doom would be quickly evident to any troops stationed there. A small group of people on foot might be able to sneak up unnoticed. Again, the Eagle plan might work, but it increases the chances of being caught.

The Council of Elrond did not know exactly what to expect in Mordor, so they had to plan for the worst (i.e., assume the worst case scenario for each possible solution). The Fellowship plan was itself a very long shot and indeed, it failed in its original conception, though obviously a fragment of the Fellowship persisted; but the Eagle plan raises such a host of potential issues and problems that I think it is quite understandable why the Council opted to send people on foot. As I mentioned at the beginning, their emphasis was on [i:1hgmxq95]secrecy[/i:1hgmxq95].

(This of course assumes that the Eagles, were they asked, would consent to fly the Ringbearer/Fellowship to Mount Doom.) [/quote:1hgmxq95]

Fimbrethil has made 55 posts and is from and is not online.
Posted Saturday 3rd April 2010 (07:05pm)

Thanks for your opinion!

I never thought about the fact that they couldn't just drop the ring in the caldera. Thanks for clearing that up. It seems to me that they could have saved alot of time by flying on Eagles most of the way though. Maybe i would have liked it if the council had at least brought up the issue and furthur emphasized the secrecy.

Oh well. Overall i don't really think its a plothole and there are many arguments against it

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Saturday 3rd April 2010 (07:24pm)

You're very welcome.

Sauron - and Saruman - had many spies that would have ntoiced the Eagles. Given the incredibly sensitive naturenof the Quest, I can understand why they didn't want to risk it. In any event, I agree that it isn't a plot hole.

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Saturday 3rd April 2010 (09:50pm)

Perhaps. However, they weren't on the lookout for him (much less him and the One Ring) at the time. I'm not sure why they wouldn't have let him come through even if they saw him, though. They didn't know he was going to rescue Gandalf (Gwaihir didn't know that himself!).

Odo Banks has made 1883 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Saturday 3rd April 2010 (11:35pm)

Maybe they should have invited the eagles to the Council of Elrond. Who knows what might have happened then? (Imagine the adventures they could have had if the Nine of the Fellowship were to set out on Eagles. Dogfights with Nazgul? Anti-eagle flak-guns over Mordor? Dam Buster technique training as Frodo earned his wings? Imagine Gwaihir (I hope I spelt that right!) perched majestically at the Council! Awesome!

Eldo, Mount Doom had a hole in the top. It just had a passage bored in its side. If it had a roof, surely T would have mentioned it. Please correct me if I'm wrong! (I'm sure you will! )

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Sunday 4th April 2010 (01:11am)

[quote="Odo Banks":dbtl6mob]Imagine the adventures they could have had if the Nine of the Fellowship were to set out on Eagles. Dogfights with Nazgul? Anti-eagle flak-guns over Mordor? Dam Buster technique training as Frodo earned his wings?[/quote:dbtl6mob]

Even I have to admit that that story would be incredibly awesome.

[quote:dbtl6mob]Eldo, Mount Doom had a hole in the top. It just had a passage bored in its side. If it had a roof, surely T would have mentioned it. Please correct me if I'm wrong! (I'm sure you will! )[/quote:dbtl6mob]

You know me too well. Tolkien actually did mention it, at least by implication. In Book VI, Chapter 3 (Mount Doom), we read that Sam "was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were hear subdued.... Then Sam saw that he was in a long cave or tunnel that bored into the Mountain's smoking cone." The Crack of Doom itself was at the end of the tunnel where it opened up over a pool of lava. It was in the tunnel itself, home of Sauron's sorcery, that the Ring needed to be brought.

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Sunday 4th April 2010 (01:21am)

BTW, Fimbrethil, your question inspired me to review some notes and upload a slightly cleaned-up version of my post to my Tolkien site - [url:2ba8vt1u]http://eldorion.wordpress.com/lore/eagles/[/url:2ba8vt1u]. Thank you for giving me a reason to do something with it.

Odo Banks has made 1883 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Sunday 4th April 2010 (02:05am)

What [i:1fe7ktww]implication[/i:1fe7ktww] are you implying? I'm gonna win this one, I just know it! Not that just [i:1fe7ktww]winning [/i:1fe7ktww]an argument is important. No, finding out the[i:1fe7ktww] facts[/i:1fe7ktww] is the [i:1fe7ktww]true purpose[/i:1fe7ktww] of any discussion or debate. We should all seek to be winners in matters of the intellect - of learning - of history - of human knowledge - of Lore... Discussion should never be there so some egomaniac can just set out to win an argument ...[b:1fe7ktww]LIKE HELL IT SHOULDN'T [/b:1fe7ktww]!

Come on Eldo, let's see you put your dukes up now!

Um... "smoking cone"? "Crack of Doom"? No [i:1fe7ktww]'lids'[/i:1fe7ktww] mentioned, pray tell! No [i:1fe7ktww]'oven covers[/i:1fe7ktww]', no [i:1fe7ktww]'silcone in the cracks'[/i:1fe7ktww]?

"Youiz wrong, Preciousss! I knows you iz! I saw it with eyeses, but I've only got the two, isn't it so Preciousssssss...Mustn't gloat... That wouldn't be nice, now would it? Oh no, no....that wouln't be nice... Mussent glowat, Preciousssssssss!"

Odo Banks has made 1883 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Sunday 4th April 2010 (03:05am)

Don't try and be inscrutable, Eldo! (It doesn't suit you - more up GB's alley than yours! [i:1ndu9vx7]Alley![/i:1ndu9vx7] Tee-hee.. sorry...) Where was I... Oh yes... I was being flaming mad!!!! )... Eldo - a volcano's cone has a hole in the top of it! Yep - the top of it! Even [i:1ndu9vx7]I [/i:1ndu9vx7]know a tunnel hasn't got a lid on it! Otherwise it would be a 'ditch'! Don't try to bamboozle me with your fancy talk of tunnels-in-the-side-of-volcanos, when you know full well we're talking about Mount Doom (a volcano) having a hole in it's top! Yes, if you must, a [i:1ndu9vx7]hole[/i:1ndu9vx7] in its [i:1ndu9vx7]cone[/i:1ndu9vx7]! See how angry you've made me! I've gone and put seven - yes, [i:1ndu9vx7]seven[/i:1ndu9vx7]! - angry faces here! And I'm not even sure that's legal!!!

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Sunday 4th April 2010 (05:25am)

I have drawn the following cut-away diagram to (literally!) illustrate my point. The red dot represents the focal point of Sauron's sorcery, where the Ring might be taken. Dropping the Ring into the caldera could [i:1ll85vmi]possibly[/i:1ll85vmi] hit that spot (though this assumes my simple drawing is accurate, and the caldera scheme might be wholly impossible), but it's far more likely to miss. Again, it comes back to risk.

Odo Banks has made 1883 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Sunday 4th April 2010 (09:50am)

I can live with risk - it's volcanos without holes in the top that worry me! Your illustration implies that at last you've replaced [i:388ocxj8]madness [/i:388ocxj8]with [i:388ocxj8]reason[/i:388ocxj8]!

Tinuviel has made 474 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Monday 5th April 2010 (12:49am)

Well, if they just brought all of the Rohirrium and Gondorians and the trees all attacked Mordor, wouldn't that cause enough of a distraction? And if Sauron did spot them flying through, what was he going to do about it? Frodo put the ring on while in Mt. Doom and Sauron couldn't reach him in time because of the "diversion." So that probably would've worked. I think. Yet then, Boromir wouldn't have died, Denethor wouldn't be crazy with grief, Faramir wouldn't have had to go out and prove himself, and Denethor wouldn't have had to jump killed himself. And he wouldn't let Aragorn be king. I'm sure alot of other good things might not have happened, and besides, why ruin such a great story? Though arguably, another story could begin...

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Monday 5th April 2010 (04:51am)

[quote="Tinuviel":3sgtsotv]Well, if they just brought all of the Rohirrium and Gondorians and the trees all attacked Mordor, wouldn't that cause enough of a distraction?[/quote:3sgtsotv]

Even if they [i:3sgtsotv]could[/i:3sgtsotv] (and without Merry and Pippin getting lost the Ents probably wouldn't join, and Denethor might not be cooperative), Sauron would still probably have plenty of forces inside Mordor, especially since he wouldn't have suffered a loss at the Pelennor. I doubt that an attack would draw away all of the guards from within Mordor.

[quote:3sgtsotv]And if Sauron did spot them flying through, what was he going to do about it?[/quote:3sgtsotv]

It would be more likely that a guard or watcher would spot the Eagle than Sauron himself, and it would be more likely to occur before reaching Mount Doom. Flying through the Mountains would be particularly dangerous, especially since the Eagles have a documented fear of archers.

Tinuviel has made 474 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Monday 5th April 2010 (04:44pm)

I suppose you're right But how interesting would it be if that did work? I could see a whole new story working itself out! The prologue being the destrution of the ring.... and the story itself being what happens to all of the characters afterward since all 3 books never happened

BilboII has made 2 posts and is from and is not online.
Posted Monday 5th April 2010 (06:38pm)

i know its not the actual book.. but in the film there are some wideshots of mount doom, and they show lava and stuff coming out of the top...
again i don't know wether you are talking about the films as well or just the book...

Pettytyrant101 has made 1383 posts and is a Hobbit from Buckland and is not online.
Posted Monday 5th April 2010 (06:53pm)

Manwe picked Gandalf, the eagles are the heralds of Manwe, the Gods generally don't interfere except around Gandlaf, (I suspect that's all Manwe's doing) so the eagles are only allowed to be used directly in association with Gandlaf- Battle of 5 Armies, Isengard, bringing Gandalf resurrected self to Lothlorien, attacking the Nazgul and going to find Frodo, Sam are all associated with Gandalf.
So the reason they don't use the eagles is the Gods dont want them to- and the eagles are pretty picky and moody in the book anyway.
p.s. getting deja vu here haven't we covered this somewhere?

Gandalfs Beard has made 2311 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Monday 5th April 2010 (07:10pm)

Yes we have Petty, but we are getting some interesting new insights.

Welcome to the forum BilboII . I [i:15xg00lk]think[/i:15xg00lk] it's in the book too. After the Ring is destroyed Mt Doom blows its stack. Now it wouldn't necessarily have had a hole in its crater (NOT a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldera:15xg00lk]Caldera[/url:15xg00lk]) at the top before it blew. It depends how active it was. If it hadn't blown for a long time it could have been crusted over, which would have prevented just dropping it in from above if it had been. I am unclear at the moment whether it was or not (crusted over that is) before it blew.

In any case, fissures and cracks in the side of volcanoes often vent magma and hot gases relieving pressure on the top of the cone. They usually only blow after too much pressure has built up.

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Tuesday 6th April 2010 (02:09am)

[quote="Tinuviel":38a3hkqd]I suppose you're right But how interesting would it be if that did work? I could see a whole new story working itself out! The prologue being the destrution of the ring.... and the story itself being what happens to all of the characters afterward since all 3 books never happened[/quote:38a3hkqd]

Fimbrethil has made 55 posts and is from and is not online.
Posted Tuesday 6th April 2010 (03:46am)

Great discussion guys!

[quote="Gandalfs Beard":wbaivwkn]Yes we have Petty, but we are getting some interesting new insights.

Welcome to the forum BilboII . I [i:wbaivwkn]think[/i:wbaivwkn] it's in the book too. After the Ring is destroyed Mt Doom blows its stack. Now it wouldn't necessarily have had a hole in its crater (NOT a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldera:wbaivwkn]Caldera[/url:wbaivwkn]) at the top before it blew. It depends how active it was. If it hadn't blown for a long time it could have been crusted over, which would have prevented just dropping it in from above if it had been. I am unclear at the moment whether it was or not (crusted over that is) before it blew.

In any case, fissures and cracks in the side of volcanoes often vent magma and hot gases relieving pressure on the top of the cone. They usually only blow after too much pressure has built up.

[b:wbaivwkn]GB[/b:wbaivwkn][/quote:wbaivwkn]

I knew that about volcanos but I don't remember the books mentioning anything about whether there was a hole or not but I might have missed something

[quote="Tinuviel":wbaivwkn]Well, if they just brought all of the Rohirrium and Gondorians and the trees all attacked Mordor, wouldn't that cause enough of a distraction? And if Sauron did spot them flying through, what was he going to do about it? Frodo put the ring on while in Mt. Doom and Sauron couldn't reach him in time because of the "diversion." So that probably would've worked. I think. Yet then, Boromir wouldn't have died, Denethor wouldn't be crazy with grief, Faramir wouldn't have had to go out and prove himself, and Denethor wouldn't have had to jump killed himself. And he wouldn't let Aragorn be king. I'm sure alot of other good things might not have happened, and besides, why ruin such a great story? Though arguably, another story could begin...[/quote:wbaivwkn]

Thats exactly what I thought about! A distraction! Isn't that what they did anyway to allow Frodo to destroy the ring? But i doubt the ents would attack Mordor. They attacked Isengard because Saruman threatened their home but Mordor was further away. I think I recall Treebeard saying he's not really on one side in particular.

[quote="pettytyrant101":wbaivwkn]Manwe picked Gandalf, the eagles are the heralds of Manwe, the Gods generally don't interfere except around Gandlaf, (I suspect that's all Manwe's doing) so the eagles are only allowed to be used directly in association with Gandlaf- Battle of 5 Armies, Isengard, bringing Gandalf resurrected self to Lothlorien, attacking the Nazgul and going to find Frodo, Sam are all associated with Gandalf.
So the reason they don't use the eagles is the Gods dont want them to- and the eagles are pretty picky and moody in the book anyway.
p.s. getting deja vu here haven't we covered this somewhere?[/quote:wbaivwkn]

I think the destroying of the ring directly involved Gandalf because he and the other Maia were sent to middle earth tby the Valar to deal with Sauron.

Odo Banks has made 1883 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Tuesday 6th April 2010 (05:13am)

I thought it was Mount Doom, not Mount Dormant? And if one were to delve a tunnel into the side of a dormant volcano, wouldn't one hit hot lava? And do volcanos have big hollows beneath their crusty tops? And if so, wouldn't the heat and gases inside the chamber be too much to bear - even for Sauron? Tricky place to make a Ring all round, I'd say! Give me an open top volcano with a tunnel delved so that it was somewhere just above the bubbling lava! Come on, guys, we're not discussing fantasy here - or are we?

Tinuviel has made 474 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Tuesday 6th April 2010 (05:19am)

Well, this may sound pretty bad, what if they offered TWO diversions???
The first would be what i previously mentioned, and the second would be actual bate! Just kinap one of those Sackville Bagginses, and have them be brought to Sauron! That way, Sauron would think he'd one already because he had the ring (which could've been a simple key ring for all he knew!) in the possesion of the captured BAGGINS!!!! Haha! that way, he wouldn't think anyone would be trying to destroy it! Though, I don't think even Bilbo could send those Sackville's to such a horrible fate... but it's food for thought

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Tuesday 6th April 2010 (05:29am)

I have a feeling Sauron would realize it wasn't the One pretty quickly. Granted, he still wouldn't expect them to destroy it, but the Sackville-Baggins sacrifice wouldn't really accomplish much (other than getting rid of them ).

Tinuviel has made 474 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Tuesday 6th April 2010 (10:17pm)

Well, is fantasy meant to be serious? Anything can happen in a fantasy story, that's the beauty of them. Therefore Tolkein could theoretically written the lord of the rings like the parody of which we are speaking, it WOULD work Anything is possible

Pettytyrant101 has made 1383 posts and is a Hobbit from Buckland and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 7th April 2010 (03:42am)

I still say the biggest plot hole is Gandlaf not spotting the ring Bilbo found was the One Ring for 50 years, and I'm not afraid to back it up with quotes!
Gandalf has this to say about the year Bilbo found the Ring, "...it was in the year that the WC drove the dark power from Mirkwood...that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then...I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was-that at least was clear from the first.."- Shadow of the Past.
Now if he knew it was a Great Ring then it had to be either of the 7, the 9 or the 3, or it was the One. So how to tell? Well Gandalf has this to say at the Council of Elrond;
"The Nine, Seven and the Three had each their proper gem. Not so the one. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings."
Except Gandalf knew it wasn't a lesser ring from the start- so a simple process of elimination should have pointed out it was the One Ring half a century before Gandlaf actually worked it out! Too much pipe-weed maybe?

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 7th April 2010 (05:03am)

We don't know when* Saruman said those words, but it's possible that when he did the matter of the Ring was sufficiently far from the forefront of Gandalf's mind that he wasn't thinking about it and just didn't put two and two together. I know I've made similarly obvious mistakes like that, but when you don't expect something (remember, Gandalf thought the Ring was in the Anduin) you sometimes just don't realize the obvious.

That's how I see it, at any rate.

*EDIT: Further review of relevant text implies to me that Saruman said them at the White Council in 2941, but I think it is sufficiently vague that we can't be sure.

Pettytyrant101 has made 1383 posts and is a Hobbit from Buckland and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 7th April 2010 (05:32am)

Even assuming that Gandalf did not know what all the Great Rings looked like (and I concur that the matter was discussed at the meeting of WC if it wasnt already generally known by the Wise before that) he would have known it had to be either the One or one of the 7. He knew where the 3 were (he was even wearing one) and the 9 were still with their owners or with Sauron (never been quite clear if the Nazgul wore their rings or if Sauron held them to control them). Only the 7 seem vaguely accounted for-either reclaimed by Sauron or consumed by Dragon fire. So there was a fairly narrow choice for just which Great Ring Bilbo had found and it seems unlikely "a shadow" would have fallen on Gandlaf's heart at Bilbo finding one of the 7.

Odo Banks has made 1883 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 7th April 2010 (10:04am)

Ah! But what about all the great magic rings they had in Middle-earth (and magic bracelets and brooches)! There would have been heaps of great rings, not just [i:1waxic82]the[/i:1waxic82] Great Rings? (And didn't we have this debate on the Saruman thread anyhow? )

Pettytyrant101 has made 1383 posts and is a Hobbit from Buckland and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 7th April 2010 (06:59pm)

Indeed but in the intervening time I read the quotes I gave which seem to strengthen the point and here seemd a good place to stick it because ummm I couldn't remember where the original point was made

Odo Banks has made 1883 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Thursday 8th April 2010 (12:37am)

Yes, you guys have certainly messed everything up, what with your tangents, digressions and nosensesesus! (I must say, it mght be fun to hop, and kick and sing, but sooner or later reality catches up with you. This Forum has become an absolute Hydra Head - in spite of [i:3ls68urr]my [/i:3ls68urr] best efforts to lay a sure hand on the tiller! )

Eldorion has made 2120 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Thursday 8th April 2010 (01:16am)

I don't remember a time when we weren't having lots of diversions and side discussions. I like being able to do that here, [i:2yn83v9n]especially[/i:2yn83v9n] since it doesn't stop us from also having serious discussions.

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