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Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

What can I say that hasn't already been said. Not even my Pacers Adidas can help this team. We all know that big changes are coming this Summer. There is no doubt TINS will be somewhere else and possibly JO (hoping we keep JO). Where they will go and who we will get for them is still a mystery. RC must be fired, no excuses, and I don't even care if this whole 1 - 13 clip isn't his fault, we have to start fresh.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

It's starting to look like Tinsley is trying to force a trade. He's becoming increasingly aggressive and putting up pretty good numbers, which makes him look like he's a good player. He's also bringing out his bag of tricks which was clearly why Carlisle benched him that first year. He's forcing these between the legs, around the back etc...and he's knows there's nothing Carlisle can do about it. He got kicked out of the game last night and he'll start in the next game.

Those of you complaining about his "And1" style have to at least admit it's exciting. At this point it looks like another one bites the dust, due to having to play for Rick Carlisle.......Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Jamaal Tinsley "da da dunt dunt dunt da dunt dunt dunt da dunt". I wonder who'll be next it looks like Granger is having a blast out there.

That was a nice rendition of the Queen classic.

Agree with you about Carlisle not doing anything to challenge Jamaal-his quote in the Star was something about how tough it is when you lose "one of your best players" or something like that. I'm not sure I understand why he sees coaching as giving your players a free pass to act like knuckleheads. Whatever you do, don't upset the apple cart.

Disagree with you that we are somehow losing good players BECAUSE they play for Carlisle, though. Artest, Jackson, and now JT-they are good at being knuckleheads on their own, thank you very much. It's not his fault they act like this; they're grown men who aren't approaching their jobs with professionalism.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

When we first made that trade it was easy to look at it in a way that seemed to benifit us, but really we should have seen this coming.

When we did that deal we acquired a team that fields a starting lineup with a complete lack of a second option, and 3 very poor defensive players. How did we ever expect to win many ballgames with this club?

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

Everyone keeps calling these guys knuckleheads. The fact is this league is full of 'em and some coaches know how to deal with them and some don't. Some key players on championship contenders are/have been knuckleheads. Kobe Bryant, Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, Raheed Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Chauncey Billups, Chris Webber. It's the coaches responsibility to get these guys on the same page and buying into winning is key. That's why they have coaches. This Pacers team was a contender with a slew of knucklehead just in the past few seasons. I know Tinsley can be an ***, so can JO. It's Rick Carlisle's job to get these guys playing together. He has not done that while in Indiana. In fact, he's pushed players apart and in some cases to other teams.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

Mark Jackson threw a lot of those behind the back, between the legs, sometimes between the defender's legs passes too...the difference was, they ended up in our players' hands for a score, rather than in the other team's hands for a fast break going the other direction.

No joke.

I've sat down on the endline adjacent to the Pacer bench twice.

The first time, I rode Jalen Rose's butt for not getting back on defense and giving up layups on three consecutive possessions while he was jacking his jaw at an official.

The second time it happened was when Tinsley attempted a behind the back bounce pass on the other end of the court that resulted in a layup for the opponent. I more or less yelled "Nice assist Tinsley! Got anything else you wanna pull out of your playground repertoire?"

On both occassions I looked over at Walsh after I yelled what I had to say. Walsh never shows any expression, and hardly ever looks away from the floor, but on both occassions he nodded his head as if in agreement as he continued watching the game.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

When we first made that trade it was easy to look at it in a way that seemed to benifit us, but really we should have seen this coming.

When we did that deal we acquired a team that fields a starting lineup with a complete lack of a second option, and 3 very poor defensive players. How did we ever expect to win many ballgames with this club?

I'd like to point out that many of us DID see this coming. The Pacers are dead in the water, and if Donnie Walsh pulls some BS this offseason about how we should expect Dunleavy/Murphy to be better next year because of time to gel, I'm gonna hurt somebody. And the team will be dead in the water by preseason.

The talent was questionable even before the trade. First round and out talent is what we had. But now lottery talent is what is being played.

Somehow they gotta get rid of Murphy/Dunleavy or at the very least bury them at the end of the bench and give big minutes to the young players.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

Everyone keeps calling these guys knuckleheads. The fact is this league is full of 'em and some coaches know how to deal with them and some don't. Some key players on championship contenders are/have been knuckleheads. Kobe Bryant, Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, Raheed Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Chauncey Billups, Chris Webber. It's the coaches responsibility to get these guys on the same page and buying into winning is key. That's why they have coaches. This Pacers team was a contender with a slew of knucklehead just in the past few seasons. I know Tinsley can be an ***, so can JO. It's Rick Carlisle's job to get these guys playing together. He has not done that while in Indiana. In fact, he's pushed players apart and in some cases to other teams.

Explain to me how Artest, Jackson, and Tinsley even remotely fit into the above group of players you offered as examples.

When have Bryant, Williams, Walker, Wallace, Billups, or Webber ever run into the stands after laying on the scorer's table in the middle of a game and then pummelled an innocent fan in a blind rage?

When have any of those guys ever followed a teammate into the stands to do the same thing? Or admitted to getting into a bar fight during training camp and subsequently kicked a defenseless man on the ground and fired a handgun into the air?

Or even allegedly been involved in the same fight, then some 3 months later allegedly been in another fight, severing a guys ear lobe and breaking his jaw?

Rodman succeeded because he had Jordan and before that Isiah Thomas as teammates to keep him in line. Most teams don't have players of that caliber to wield that kind of clout. And it wasn't Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson's coaching.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

You can keep talking about all kinds of things that don't happen on the basketball court. They have nothing to do with outcomes of games.

If the things that happen off the court keep players from practicing, or possibly missing entire seasons or 30 game chunks of seasons, then, yes, it would appear that they factor into the outcomes of games.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

This whole player off court incidents in respect to how they play has reached ridiculous proportions. If I remember correctly the whole brawl thing happened when the Pacers players were accosted by a stadium of drunk people. If I remember correctly our beloved Jermaine O'Neal was involved and suspended. Not to mention the vast majority of players and personnel, who weren't slapped with suspensions due to the fact that someone had to take the court. Players, people for that matter, go to bars and get in fights. None of the players involved have served jail time or missed games due to these incidents. Feel free to use the "I go to my job on time, don't go out past dark and always consider the consequences", when your job offers you a guaranteed salary in the millions until you're close to your retirement age then you can talk about how much you give a **** about getting to work on time or trying hard to be the best and don't go spending you new fortune having fun and start considering the consequences of being a young celebrity with more money than you can shake a stick at with a guarantee that the money will keep rolling in.

This organization has had the players to get the job done and they've been shipped out because of player/coach conflicts and midwest conservative values end of story. You can't change the values of the fanbase but you can change the coach. If you get a coach who the players respect and can relate to you'll find players who put forth effort and rally around their leader. If this team was winning there'd be something else for the Star to cram down our throats.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

This whole player off court incidents in respect to how they play has reached ridiculous proportions. If I remember correctly the whole brawl thing happened when the Pacers players were accosted by a stadium of drunk people. If I remember correctly our beloved Jermaine O'Neal was involved and suspended. Not to mention the vast majority of players and personnel, who weren't slapped with suspensions due to the fact that someone had to take the court. Players, people for that matter, go to bars and get in fights. None of the players involved have served jail time or missed games due to these incidents. Feel free to use the "I go to my job on time, don't go out past dark and always consider the consequences", when your job offers you a guaranteed salary in the millions until you're close to your retirement age then you can talk about how much you give a **** about getting to work on time or trying hard to be the best and don't go spending you new fortune having fun and start considering the consequences of being a young celebrity with more money than you can shake a stick at with a guarantee that the money will keep rolling in.

This organization has had the players to get the job done and they've been shipped out because of player/coach conflicts and midwest conservative values end of story. You can't change the values of the fanbase but you can change the coach. If you get a coach who the players respect and can relate to you'll find players who put forth effort and rally around their leader. If this team was winning there'd be something else for the Star to cram down our throats.

You've proven my point. "None of the players involved have served jail time or missed games due to these incidents." 2 of the players that you cited as the talented individuals Carlisle has alienated, Ron Artest and Steven Jackson, missed a combined 100 plus games in that one season alone. Who else in the list of knuckleheads you mentioned have done anything remotely similar to that? Apples. Oranges.

These individuals, young as they are, are guaranteed million dollar salaries to play a game. We all have our crosses to bear, I guess . If I don't believe that the pressures of money or the spotlight excuse criminal assault, I'm not being sympathetic enough? Huh?!

I agree that Carlisle doesn't manage his players well. What in the hell that has to do with all the crap Artest, Jackson, and Tinsley have pulled, I'll never know.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

This organization has had the players to get the job done and they've been shipped out because of player/coach conflicts and midwest conservative values end of story

Your assessment is tempting, but just doesn't stand the test of scrutiny. And "end of story" is just too absolutist.

Carlisle is certainly not the best in terms of player-relations. But is Rick responsible for Ron's relational problems in Sacremento? Nope. Rick was handed a head case, and you could even argue that it was his relational coaching skills that got the Ps at least one or two good seasons with the guy.

Is it Rick's fault that Jackson packs a gun and shoots it in a scrape with idiots like an adolescent? Is it Rick's fault that he makes a complete *** of himself and gets booed by fans? Is it Rick's fault that he has no consideration for others or the larger picture and jacks it up reguarly with 14 on the shot clock?

Is it Rick's fault that Al Harrington developed a similar attitude of offensive selfishness and demanded a trade? That Al couldn't work out a way to share the ball with his best bud? That he got more enamored with his three shot than his defense the past few years?

Is it Rick's fault that Jamaal takes terrible care of himself and probably smokes weed regularly and irresponsibly?

Rick isn't the cause. He may not have been able to fix it, but it's arguable whether the Zen master or any other coach could have fixed these bad apples.

I'm pleased to have Murphleavy instead. We may not be winning as much right now, but if we ever do, it will be based on the right foundation. I'm thinking of a quote about gaining the world but losing your soul.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

ON THE COURT

The whole suspension stuff from the brawl was ridiculous. We've all covered that. I'm just surprised so many now use that against the players. I thought Stern/Piston fans were the bad guys in all of that.

And yes it is the coaches fault if players are being selfish on the court or shooting the three too much or not running the plays or arguing with officials. That is an NBA coaches job to keep the players in line on the court in both performance and behavior. What exactly does a coach at this level do? He decides which of the ultra-talented players get to play. They're not teaching free throw shooting fundamentals. If a player can't shoot a free throw...they hire a free throw specialist.

In the game vs. the Spurs, it was Rick Carlisle's job to recognize that Jamaal Tinsley was frustrated by the pressure defense, lack of calls and direction the game was taking. It was obvious to me that Jamaal was out of control a few minutes before he was ejected. He was pushing Parker on both offense and defense, he was lowering his head and driving with little control and needed to sit down and cool off. Instead, he was left in and exploded. Afterwards, you could see Rick asking Johnny Davis "What did he do?".....he didn't even know why Tinsley was ejected. He didn't recognize an integral part of the team was losing his composure and let it escalate into something that could've easily been avoided.......sounds familiar doesn't it.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

The whole suspension stuff from the brawl was ridiculous. We've all covered that. I'm just surprised so many now use that against the players. I thought Stern/Piston fans were the bad guys in all of that.

It doesn't matter if you or I think it was ridiculous. It happened, and that's how history is going to document it.

Ron missed 70+ some odd games, and Jackson missed 30. End of story. They missed 100+ games combined because they acted like complete idiots.

Their stupid behavior cost them and the franchise a lot more than wins with their actions.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

The whole suspension stuff from the brawl was ridiculous. We've all covered that. I'm just surprised so many now use that against the players. I thought Stern/Piston fans were the bad guys in all of that.

And yes it is the coaches fault if players are being selfish on the court or shooting the three too much or not running the plays or arguing with officials. That is an NBA coaches job to keep the players in line on the court in both performance and behavior. What exactly does a coach at this level do? He decides which of the ultra-talented players get to play. They're not teaching free throw shooting fundamentals. If a player can't shoot a free throw...they hire a free throw specialist.

In the game vs. the Spurs, it was Rick Carlisle's job to recognize that Jamaal Tinsley was frustrated by the pressure defense, lack of calls and direction the game was taking. It was obvious to me that Jamaal was out of control a few minutes before he was ejected. He was pushing Parker on both offense and defense, he was lowering his head and driving with little control and needed to sit down and cool off. Instead, he was left in and exploded. Afterwards, you could see Rick asking Johnny Davis "What did he do?".....he didn't even know why Tinsley was ejected. He didn't recognize an integral part of the team was losing his composure and let it escalate into something that could've easily been avoided.......sounds familiar doesn't it.

To quote from another 70's superstar (Dave Mason, I think): "There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy, ...we just disagree." Or something like that.

It was pretty much par for the course for Rick to respond to the situation by saying he didn't see it.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

It doesn't matter if you or I think it was ridiculous. It happened, and that's how history is going to document it.

Ron missed 70+ some odd games, and Jackson missed 30. End of story. They missed 100+ games combined because they acted like complete idiots.

Their stupid behavior cost them and the franchise a lot more than wins with their actions.

No-one seems to remember JO was also suspended. It's funny to me how the attitude about the situation changed from "Those suspensions are BS" to "Those guys deserved it because I don't like them now".

I know my opinion on the subject is unpopular, but that what it is...my opinion. My opinion is Jamaal Tinsley is a good point guard, Stephen Jackson is a good small forward, Al Harrington is a good forward and Ron Artest was a beast at one time. Despite all of their silliness, they have been/will be moved because they can't co-exist with Rick Carlisle. That's 4 of the 5 best players on the team since Rick took over.

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

Seth, if anything, the GS trade was a prevemptive strike to prevent another trade demand/ hold the franchise hostage situation.

Did the team take an on-court downgrade? Yes.

Beyond just the on-court stuff, did the team take a downgrade? No. You're seriously underestimating the baggage that was taken to GS - however those players are enjoying their honeymoon period but the problems will return (maybe not with Al, he seems to only have a problem with Carlisle and not anyone else.)

Yes, this team is worse on the court. But the "old" team would've found a different way to get to the exact same place - it wasn't going anywhere either.

At least we have some system players here who might be better when they get an entire training camp with thier new coach/ teammates. They're up and down. Major in-season trades don't usually pay benefits immediately. Too much is shaken up, and continuity matters more than its given credit for (assuming that the situation is working right in the first place.)

As for Tinsley, I said way back in "This Team is Built for the Regular Season" all those months ago that, for better or worse, he is our second best player.

Granger? No. We can wish that he was, but he is not our #2 option.
Dunleavy? Right now he's probably our third best player. When he's our #4 option, we'll be in good shape.

Murphy? I like Troy, but he's got to get tougher, physically.

Tinsley is our #2 option. This has been building for a long time. I'm not saying that's a good thing - I'd much rather have Tinsley creating opportunities for everyone else. But it is what it is.

Granger, as much as I like him, is quickly becoming expendable in my book because we've got too many SFs and no SGs. What could a combo of Granger and Foster get us in terms of a new backcourt?

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

Carlisle is certainly not the best in terms of player-relations. But is Rick responsible for Ron's relational problems in Sacremento? Nope. Rick was handed a head case, and you could even argue that it was his relational coaching skills that got the Ps at least one or two good seasons with the guy.

Or, when Rick benched Artest for "conduct detrimental to winning", he went to management, threw up his hands and said "get rid of this guy". But management said, "We'll handle him, you just coach the rest of the team." I'm just saying, there was a lot of extra behind the scenes stuff here. I blame Rick for a number of things, but not things that he did not have responsbility for. Management was trying to coddle him to good behavior without alientating the rest of the team, and that had a lot to do with why his Miami-meltdown that season was a major blow to the team - mentally. Even with all of his preferential treatment, he still couldn't stay focused on the 'team' (because he wasn't mentally capable of it). That's 100% on management.

Is it Rick's fault that Jackson packs a gun and shoots it in a scrape with idiots like an adolescent? Is it Rick's fault that he makes a complete *** of himself and gets booed by fans? Is it Rick's fault that he has no consideration for others or the larger picture and jacks it up reguarly with 14 on the shot clock?

Is it Rick's fault that Al Harrington developed a similar attitude of offensive selfishness and demanded a trade? That Al couldn't work out a way to share the ball with his best bud? That he got more enamored with his three shot than his defense the past few years?

Yes.

Rick isn't the cause. He may not have been able to fix it, but it's arguable whether the Zen master or any other coach could have fixed these bad apples.

I'm pleased to have Murphleavy instead. We may not be winning as much right now, but if we ever do, it will be based on the right foundation. I'm thinking of a quote about gaining the world but losing your soul.

Fine points. However, I think its safe to say that Rick exacerbated the problems that alread existed because of his lousy interpersonal skills.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

What's he gonna say? Tinsley is a better PG than Dunleavy is a SG/SF. He's a better PG than Murphy is a PF/C. He is the second best player on the team, for better or worse.

I guess you all would like to see Tinsley benched so Darrell Armstrong and Keith McLeod get some starts, right? Armstrong - Dunleavy - Granger - Murphy - Foster will get us some wins, right?

I don't like Tinsley's offensive awareness, but I'll definately take him over the alternatives, until draft day at least.

I'd like to see him say that JT is one of our veterans, and when the team is struggling like this, he needs to keep his head on straight. Or something to that effect.

Benching him would be fine with me to let the team know what type of effort he expects. Ultimately, if JT learned from this or not, it could help the rest of the team know how they should act if they want to be a winning team.

He's easily the most talented PG on the roster. But even though he's been here for what, 5 or 6 years now, can you say he really makes our team better? Consistently, I mean.