Why? Because a team like the Indians that depends mightly on a solid, producing farm system as its life blood can't reach and sustain competitiveness without a top grade system no matter how many trades it makes or free agents they sign. The truth of the matter is the majority of the free agents do not want to come here because they know they will be low balled and moved as soon as things start to go south. Free agents only work in Cleveland as an additive to a significant core of young established ML players on the verge of winning.

The formula -- solid producing farm system annually to develop a core of young players that grow together, a few trades and a few key free agent signing when the team is able to contend ... it is simple. The farm system component is more than 50% of the equation, more like 70%.

Absolutely correct, which is why those seven years of getting literally less than nothing (-0.2 WAR) from the farm system was devastating. Like a said, only a series of brilliant trades for other teams' prospects has kept this team from the yawning abyss.

Five more years to be competitive? Don't be too sure. Sometimes prospects emerge out of nowhere. Cody Allen is a prime example - a 23rd round pick last year who started out 2012 in A ball and is now in the Tribe's bullpen. It's still early, but so far he's gotten 30 major league hitters out while allowing 2 hits. Nobody saw this guy coming.

Next year we might get another Allen. And we have two guys with major league ability who were derailed by injury this year - Chisenhall and Carrasco, either or both of whom could be next year's Jason Kipnis. Yeah, if these guys don't pan out and nobody else emerges it might take a few more years. But it's too early to write off the next four years, IMO.

Well, I'm thinking we need to send Kluber and Tomlin down to help Columbus for the playoff run. Let's keep the lefty Seddon in the rotation for another start or two and bring up Fausto and Raffie or another reliever.

And now I see Hermann with a walk/double/walk. He should probably concentrate on his minor league career as well.

Much has been made of the difference in the drafts run by Brad Grant, who has run the 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts, versus those run by John Mirabelli, who was responsible for the draft from 2000 to 2007. The Indians are touting these signing bonuses for the 2010 Draftees as a way to be “hyper-aggressive” to add talent to the system in short order. However, if you start to look at some of the money that was doled out from 2000 to 2007, which is Mirabelli’s regime when he was running the draft, it’s not as if the Indians have never spent in the Draft in an attempt to find talent…they were just giving money to the wrong players that they were selecting.

Of course, I realize that this is old news, but in light of all of the high numbers being thrown around in terms of Pomeranz, Washington, Wolters, and Lavisky, let’s realize that a simple outlay of cash doesn’t guarantee much of anything by way of MLB success. To wit, take a look at all of the players who received more than $500K as a signing bonus in the Mirabelli regime:

If you want to see how the results speak for themselves, take a look at the players drafted by the Indians from 2000 to 2007 who made it to MLB and how the players performed in MLB, as measured by WAR (Wins Above Replacement).

2000 Draft: 0.4 WAR Total for the IndiansRyan Church: 5.2 (none as an Indian)Joe Inglett: 3.2 (0.3 as an Indian)Brian Tallet: 1.8 (0.1 as an Indian)Jonathon Van Every: 0.3 (none as an Indian)Derek Thompson: 0.3 (none as an Indian)Eric Crozier: -0.2 (none as an Indian)

2001 Draft: 0.0 WAR Total for the IndiansLuke Scott: 9.9 (none as an Indian)JD Martin: 0.6 (none as an Indian)

2002 Draft: 1.6 WAR Total for the IndiansJeremy Guthrie: 13.6 (-0.3 as an Indian)Ben Francisco: 2.8 (2.1 as an Indian)Brian Slocum: -0.2 (-0.2 as an Indian)

2003 Draft: 4.0 WAR Total for the IndiansKevin Kouzmanoff: 5.7 (-0.2 as an Indian)Aaron Laffey: 1.7 (1.7 as an Indian)Ryan Garko: 1.6 (2.8 as an Indian)Michael Aubrey: 0.0 (-0.3 as an Indian)

2004 Draft: 1.0 WAR Total for the IndiansJeremy Sowers: 1.7 (1.7 as an Indian)Scott Lewis: 0.6 (0.6 as an Indian)Tony Sipp: 0.3 (0.5 as an Indian)Wyatt Toregas: -0.2 (-0.2 as an Indian)Chris Gimenez: -1.4 (-1.4 as an Indian)

2005 Draft: 1.5 WAR Total for the IndiansJensen Lewis: 1.7 (1.7 as an Indian)Jordan Brown: 0.1 (0.1 as an Indian)Trevor Crowe: -0.3 (-0.3 as an Indian)

2006 Draft: -1.4 WAR Total for the IndiansJosh Tomlin: 0.6 (0.6 as an Indian)David Huff: -2.0 (-2.0 as an Indian)

2007 Draft: N/AAs a quick aside here, the only draftee from 2007 that has made it past AA is Josh Judy, who was a 34th Round Pick that year, meaning that the Indians have not had any MLB contributions from this Draft class, with the prospect of any of them contributing extensively looking rather bleak.

To recap that list, the players drafted by the Indians from 2000 to 2007 with the highest career WAR are as follows:Jeremy Guthrie: 13.6Luke Scott: 9.9Kevin Kouzmanoff: 5.7Ryan Church: 5.2Joe Inglett: 3.2

The obvious issue (as if it isn’t already obvious) is that those players posted a cumulative -0.2 while playing for Cleveland and the list of players with the highest WAR as Indians is certainly less compelling:Ryan Garko: 2.8Ben Francisco: 2.1Jeremy Sowers: 1.7Jensen Lewis: 1.7Aaron Laffey: 1.7

My comment: The drafts from 2000-2007 were an unmitigated disaster. The problem is that nobody knew had bad those drafts were until several years in. Nobody realized the guys drafted in 2000 weren't going to make it to the bigs until 2003 or 2004.

In 2008 they replaced Mirabelli with Grant. The jury is still out. But they were one of the top spending teams in baseball in the 2010 draft and went over slot for a number of players. They're being aggressive and spending money to get the prospects they really like signed. Whether they are doing a better job picking them than Mirabelli's group did is the question.

You have to assume that we're talking about signed players, not drafted players. Also, the column cited must be a little out of date, as McFarland from the'07 draft has reached AAA. We also drafted Greenwell in '07, & I have hopes for him being a useful MLB player. Plus, of course, your data didn't include Bryce Brentz, who we drafted in '07 & didn't sign.

Even though the Indians didn't win a World Series in '95 or '97...we had some great teams in that run. The best in my baby-boomer lifetime, for sure.

Since then, it's just been dissappointing pretty much.

And, the most dissappointing thing of all is nobody from the current owners to the upper management...the only group of people who can really do anything about fixing this organization....either care to do so, or have the authority to do what's necessary.

The troubling thing is the key weaknesses in this team have been around for several years and nothing seems to get done to fix them.

Fading veterans or journeymen stuck in positions they simply aren't able to properly perform isn't progress.

I've been saying for a few years...the expression "just get to the playoffs and anything can happen" is a ridiculous thing to believe. How long has it been since an Indians team really-really-really gave you the feeling they were capable of winning it all...and not by some fluke? A long time.

Perhaps many major league baseball owners feel their casual fan base only wants a team that's fun to watch and loves promotions....and that a team that has an realistic shot at a ring isn't that important. Who knows.

A few notes and musings on the Indians weekend series with the Red Sox and other happenings around MLB..

-The Ubaldo effort was spectacular.. his best outing of the year, bar none.. one mistake (that he paid for), otherwise, he was large and in charge. 9-11 with an ERA at 5.25 is not great, but, in his last ten outings, he's been pretty much a .500 pitcher. When he's good.. he's very good.. While this has nothing to do with the Ubaldo, it should be noted that the players traded for him, Pomeranz, White, Gardner and McBride have TANKED recently.. The Rox have the two headed monster (Pom & White) at the ML level giving them a 3-13 record with a 5.48 ERA.. Matt McBride, after his tremendous AAA season & start to his ML career is now batting a palty .222 and Joe Gardner has regressed in the Rockies system.. Right now, in spite of the inconsistencies in Ubaldo's performance, he's better than all four guys combined..

-When I posted a comment about $ 10 MM for a starting C or 1B in an earlier thread, it was only a coincidence that Carlos Santana was moved to LF during Sunday's game, opening the 1B / C starting spot.. (wink wink nudge nudge).. BTW.. he looked like a natural out there.. something to contemplate, especially with the depth the Indians have in the minors. A decision to move Santana to LF is a LLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG way off, but, it was nice to see him track a ball all the way into the mitt.. unlike shelly duncan who seems to be surprised whenever the ball finds his mitt...

timdav wrote:The troubling thing is the key weaknesses in this team have been around for several years and nothing seems to get done to fix them.

If you mean starting pitching, then certainly things have been attempted to fix the problem. They traded for Ubaldo, Lowe and Slowey to try and shore things up. Given the Indians lack of resources to sign a guy like CJ Wilson, and the lack of better options on the trade market, that's kind of the best that could have been done. You can make an argument for Edwin Jackson, but Jackson actually hasn't been that great this year (his WAR is slightly worse than Justin Masterson).

The pitching is the problem, and I don't see what moves the Indians could have made in the last two years to be better in this department. Even if the Ubaldo trade didn't happen - it's not like Pomeranz and White are doing particularly well now, and likely wouldn't be doing better than what we have.

On a related note, apparently Tomlin is getting checked out for elbow soreness, which he's been dealing with all season. I remember there being concerns about his UCL last year, and him maybe having to do TJ surgery. Not sure what to think. If he has to be shut down, it's not like we're losing a big asset. But I wonder if him recovering (either after surgery or just rest), will help him be a better pitcher next year. Maybe there's some hope left for him.

In this size media market and no salary cap? Ahhhhh. It's too depressing to think about.

I guess we were lucky we got close in '95 and '97.

I really haven't had a history of souring on the front office. I know the financial system in baseball is against us and the FO is handicapped. The last 2 years we were competitive for our division title and the FO dropped the ball both times. This past off season was awful. Realistically, the FO has to convince me they know how to build a winner before I'd even think the next 10 years. The drafting has been better but I'm not sure a formula of getting a cheap signing (Naquin) so you an sign longer shots (than a guy that they could have had at #15) is the best way to go. The past 10 months of this FO's operation was an absolute F.

In this size media market and no salary cap? Ahhhhh. It's too depressing to think about.

I guess we were lucky we got close in '95 and '97.

I really haven't had a history of souring on the front office. I know the financial system in baseball is against us and the FO is handicapped. The last 2 years we were competitive for our division title and the FO dropped the ball both times. This past off season was awful. Realistically, the FO has to convince me they know how to build a winner before I'd even think the next 10 years. The drafting has been better but I'm not sure a formula of getting a cheap signing (Naquin) so you an sign longer shots (than a guy that they could have had at #15) is the best way to go. The past 10 months of this FO's operation was an absolute F.

+1

Good post daingean. It was hard enough to try to build through the draft when we had the ability to go over the suggested slots with impunity. Under the new CBA & still lacking a salary cap, good luck. We all know that Grant doesn't pick Naquin under the old system. Now we have to contort our drafting process to fit these ridiculous rules. The only way can hope to add good SP's is through trades. The FO sat on their collective hands this season.

I don't hate Shapiro & Antonetti & I'm sure you don't either, I think we all expect better performance from them though & believe that Dolan should too.

Really...the Indians are in a very tight, unfortunate situation. And, the folks most responsible for allowing the rapid decline of this organization is in fact the ownership...the Dolan family.

Not because they didn't spend beyond their revenues. No baseball team does that for very long...if ever.

But, for an ownership group to pay $325 million for a team in a sport with no salary cap, in an already declining economic market like Cleveland, and not pay more attention to the critical core basics of owning and operating a successful team in a small revenue market (which is the necessity of having a strong minor league player development system)...well, it is really shocking. And, foolish IMHO.

How long will promotions like frequent fireworks nights and dollar-dogs pack the house and make the Indians' cash register ring at an acceptable level? Who knows. Maybe that's all that really matters.

But, the one thing we do know: in this football-crazy area with a new billionaire owner, and the billionaire owner/developer of the Cavs willing to invest in their products...I'd say the future of the Indians is cloudy at best. And, as a lifetime Indians fan, I hate to see what seems like the inevitable.

First game of the Angels series.. like so many first games of a series, the Indians have only been bested by the New York Yankees in opening games over the course of the season...

-Justin Masterson.. was masterful.. the only flaw may have been letting the lead off man on base in just about every inning. Otherwise, he took the ball and put it where he wanted.. be that with his 96 mph sinking fastball or slider.. well done.. Chris Perez's beardless look is very odd..

-Bottom of the order..came through big for the Tribe last night.. Lillibridge is that util guy that the Indians never seem to be able to find over the winter.. Perhaps they Indians should lock him up for the coming 2013 season.. Nice game by Lou Marson, especially.

-Shelly Duncan.. is completely lost at the plate & continues to struggle mightily. There should be NO PLATOON in LF for Duncan going forward. Give the AB's to Carrera and Donald.. Shelly gets to sit.. blow bubbles.. stick a thumb up his ass.. who cares.. just don't go on the field...

Onto the Ubaldo Experience tonight..and Zack Greinke.. The Indians have a so-so history when facing Greinke over the years.. Perhaps tonight's game will be one of the better ones...

AND a note regarding the feeding frenzy being discussed on this, The 2012 CLEVELAND INDIANS OFFICIAL GAME THREAD .. Make a new thread for discussing, or rather, repeating the same drivel about:

-Fire Shapiro.. he's to blame..-Fire Antonetti.. he was hired buy the person who's to blame..-Sell the team.. because changing the ownership is the panacea that will solve all ills..-Fire the Manager.. because he was hired by the guy who hired the guy who's to blame..

After all the blame is laid.. then the same problems will exist, but lots and lots of the same inane drivel will have been posted !!.. smh...

AND a note regarding the feeding frenzy being discussed on this, The 2012 CLEVELAND INDIANS OFFICIAL GAME THREAD .. Make a new thread for discussing, or rather, repeating the same drivel about:

-Fire Shapiro.. he's to blame..-Fire Antonetti.. he was hired buy the person who's to blame..-Sell the team.. because changing the ownership is the panacea that will solve all ills..-Fire the Manager.. because he was hired by the guy who hired the guy who's to blame..

After all the blame is laid.. then the same problems will exist, but lots and lots of the same inane drivel will have been posted !!.. smh...

Much has been made of the difference in the drafts run by Brad Grant, who has run the 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts, versus those run by John Mirabelli, who was responsible for the draft from 2000 to 2007. The Indians are touting these signing bonuses for the 2010 Draftees as a way to be “hyper-aggressive” to add talent to the system in short order. However, if you start to look at some of the money that was doled out from 2000 to 2007, which is Mirabelli’s regime when he was running the draft, it’s not as if the Indians have never spent in the Draft in an attempt to find talent…they were just giving money to the wrong players that they were selecting.

My comment: The drafts from 2000-2007 were an unmitigated disaster. The problem is that nobody knew had bad those drafts were until several years in. Nobody realized the guys drafted in 2000 weren't going to make it to the bigs until 2003 or 2004.

In 2008 they replaced Mirabelli with Grant. The jury is still out. But they were one of the top spending teams in baseball in the 2010 draft and went over slot for a number of players. They're being aggressive and spending money to get the prospects they really like signed. Whether they are doing a better job picking them than Mirabelli's group did is the question.

Who was the GM in 2000 when Mirabelli took over the draft? Who was the GM from 1992 thru 2001 when the first round drafts were just as bad as this decade?

I dont disagree on the 2000-2007 drafts being disasters (don't think many do), but the terrible drafting goes back to 1992. We drafted CC in the 1st round when Hart was GM...absolutely GREAT pick obviously, but I feel like that pick has too many people letting the organization off the hook in that time frame.

Jaret Wright is the 2nd best 1st round pick from the Hart GM era....his cumulative bWAR in the time with the club was 1.4 (career 3.5). The 3rd best? Paul Shuey....a reliever we drafted 2nd overall ahead of Derek Jeter (among others). And we didn't move Shuey to the pen at the ML level or due to some injury. He was a reliever from his first pro season in the minors on up. Sadly if you're going by bWAR Shuey would actually be the 2nd best 1st round pick under Hart (posted a 6.7 bWAR with Cleveland...over 9 seasons). Sure we hit on some later picks (like under Shapiro), but when 8 of your 14 first round picks over 10 years don't even make the big leagues...you're gonna be hurting, and that's what happened under Jon Hart.

timdav wrote:Florida (now Miami), an expansion franchise, has won 2 world series championships in their very short history.

Yeah, I realize the circumstances were/are different. But, they've got 2 rings in about 25 years.

The Indians haven't won it all since 1948. And, it looks less and less likely they'll even get close for a minimum of 5 to 10 more years, if then.

Is that OK with you guys?

If so, you're more patient than I am....sorry, folks.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's when the Indians were bad. Watched through the 80's then celebrated the 90's. Sat at Fulton County Stadium (where I had Braves season tickets) all decked out in my Tribe gear. If the Indians never win the WS then so be it (I've kind of settled that I'll never see it) but that doesn't mean that I roll over. I enjoy and still get excited when they do well. What is really making me angry is this past season. They really had a chance but didn't improve themselves in the off-season but were still in contention in July and still didn't make a move. Instead they wasted money on Casey Kotchman, Derek Lowe and Johnny Damon. For the record, I thought Lowe was a decent gamble but thought both Kotchman and Damon were a waste of money. Chances to make the post-season don't come around every year in Cleveland and I want a front office that goes for it when they have a chance. Yes we have drafted terribly (hopefully things have turned). Every year the financial system in baseball gets worse for the Indians and I understand that. I was against the hiring of Acta but I think he's done the most with less and now I'm in his corner and think if we have a chance to win it all then Manny is certainly better than almost every Indian manager that I've seen.

I am patient and will continue to be but not patient enough to clap my hands when the FO rolls over and plays dead like they did this season (off season included).

Good to see Kipnis back in the starting lineup, even if it's as a DH. Now Ubaldo....eek

Bad news injury wise, Tomlin to the DL with the elbow issue. Sounds like he could be headed for TJ surgery.

Rottino back up. Gets the bench to full strength. Still need a move tomorrow for Carmona/Hernandez. After Seddon's last start I hope he sticks around. Kluber...definitely hope to see him again but has been hit hard every start (1st inning is just ugly).

For the record, I thought Lowe was a decent gamble but thought both Kotchman and Damon were a waste of money.

I had no problem with the Kotchman signing. He's very solid in the field and hit .300+ for Tampa last year. There was the hope that the surgery to correct his vision was responsible for the jump in his batting average. If that was the case we were getting a .300 hitting first baseman who had the highest fielding percentage in history for his position. The alternative was... Matt LaPorta or Shelley Duncan or Jack Hannahan. Or make Santana the regular 1st baseman and Marson the every day catcher.

I think Kotchman was a reasonable gamble. It's not like he got a five-year, $42 million deal. They signed him late when he had no other offers and got him fairly cheap for an 8-year ML veteran.

If they had not signed him, who would have played 1st for the Indians this year, and how many more games would they have won?

For the record, I thought Lowe was a decent gamble but thought both Kotchman and Damon were a waste of money.

I had no problem with the Kotchman signing. He's very solid in the field and hit .300+ for Tampa last year. There was the hope that the surgery to correct his vision was responsible for the jump in his batting average. If that was the case we were getting a .300 hitting first baseman who had the highest fielding percentage in history for his position. The alternative was... Matt LaPorta or Shelley Duncan or Jack Hannahan. Or make Santana the regular 1st baseman and Marson the every day catcher.

I think Kotchman was a reasonable gamble. It's not like he got a five-year, $42 million deal. They signed him late when he had no other offers and got him fairly cheap for an 8-year ML veteran.Now Damon, that was a stupid signing and a total waste of money.

I think people can sometimes get fooled by statistics. Yes you can use them to get an idea of what you are getting but it is not as accurate as what you see with your eyes. I saw both Lowe and Kotchman quite a bit in Atlanta and thought the Lowe deal was a reasonable gamble and that paying Kotchman was a waste of money.

Hermie13 wrote:Good to see Kipnis back in the starting lineup, even if it's as a DH. Now Ubaldo....eek

Bad news injury wise, Tomlin to the DL with the elbow issue. Sounds like he could be headed for TJ surgery.

Rottino back up. Gets the bench to full strength. Still need a move tomorrow for Carmona/Hernandez. After Seddon's last start I hope he sticks around. Kluber...definitely hope to see him again but has been hit hard every start (1st inning is just ugly).

Rottino wasn't called up.

Hernandez was added in Tomlin's place and Seddon moved to the bullpen. So, still going with an 8-man pen and 3-man bench for the time being.

Hermie13 wrote:Good to see Kipnis back in the starting lineup, even if it's as a DH. Now Ubaldo....eek

Bad news injury wise, Tomlin to the DL with the elbow issue. Sounds like he could be headed for TJ surgery.

Rottino back up. Gets the bench to full strength. Still need a move tomorrow for Carmona/Hernandez. After Seddon's last start I hope he sticks around. Kluber...definitely hope to see him again but has been hit hard every start (1st inning is just ugly).

Rottino wasn't called up.

Hernandez was added in Tomlin's place and Seddon moved to the bullpen. So, still going with an 8-man pen and 3-man bench for the time being.

d'oh! Yup, that's my bad. Indians.com listed Rottino as being called up yesterday just before the game on their transactions page. Not sure what that was about. That's what I get for trusting the interwebs.

Not a fan of a 3 man bench, especially when one of your starters is nursing an injury (Kipnis). Herrmann seems a bit redundant in the pen to me...

Hermie13 wrote:Good to see Kipnis back in the starting lineup, even if it's as a DH. Now Ubaldo....eek

Bad news injury wise, Tomlin to the DL with the elbow issue. Sounds like he could be headed for TJ surgery.

Rottino back up. Gets the bench to full strength. Still need a move tomorrow for Carmona/Hernandez. After Seddon's last start I hope he sticks around. Kluber...definitely hope to see him again but has been hit hard every start (1st inning is just ugly).

Rottino wasn't called up.

Hernandez was added in Tomlin's place and Seddon moved to the bullpen. So, still going with an 8-man pen and 3-man bench for the time being.

We wish.. that would mean Duncan was DFA'd.. sadly, not the case.. Lillibridge, Donald Duncan and Marson comprise the bench bunch for now.. There's quite a bit of flexibility involved with these guys. With BOB on the hill tonight, the best defensive infield should be on display, so, look for a Marson, Kotchman, Kipnis, Droobs, Hanny infield with Choo, Brantley and Carrera in the OF.. Santana will be the DH.. The Angels have their own Santana pitching, who the Indians HAMMERED in his last outing against the Tribe. Santana has had a poor year.. not really pitching any better on the road or at home..but he did have his most impressive start ever with his no-no against the tribe last season. Patience on the hill by BOB & at the plate will be critical for the Indians to prevail tonight..

Hermie13 wrote:Good to see Kipnis back in the starting lineup, even if it's as a DH. Now Ubaldo....eek

Bad news injury wise, Tomlin to the DL with the elbow issue. Sounds like he could be headed for TJ surgery.

Rottino back up. Gets the bench to full strength. Still need a move tomorrow for Carmona/Hernandez. After Seddon's last start I hope he sticks around. Kluber...definitely hope to see him again but has been hit hard every start (1st inning is just ugly).

Rottino wasn't called up.

Hernandez was added in Tomlin's place and Seddon moved to the bullpen. So, still going with an 8-man pen and 3-man bench for the time being.

We wish.. that would mean Duncan was DFA'd.. sadly, not the case.. Lillibridge, Donald Duncan and Marson comprise the bench bunch for now.. There's quite a bit of flexibility involved with these guys. With BOB on the hill tonight, the best defensive infield should be on display, so, look for a Marson, Kotchman, Kipnis, Droobs, Hanny infield with Choo, Brantley and Carrera in the OF.. Santana will be the DH.. The Angels have their own Santana pitching, who the Indians HAMMERED in his last outing against the Tribe. Santana has had a poor year.. not really pitching any better on the road or at home..but he did have his most impressive start ever with his no-no against the tribe last season. Patience on the hill by BOB & at the plate will be critical for the Indians to prevail tonight..

The unhinging of the Indians.. a comedy of errors.. keystone kops defense.. watching a 20 foot bunt that had zero chance to go foul.. and five runs later, the outcome of the game is no longer in doubt.. Lillibridge had perhaps his worst game as a professional last night.. It was a sad game to watch..

Onto BOB: First inning.. what a start.. had the Angels beating the ball into the ground.. Lillibridge's throw to Kotchman bounced right into his glove for the first out and the game was on.. Then came the keystone kops drill, the "not" turning the double plays" when the opportunities were there and all was lost.. On the brighter side. BOB did last through the sixth inning.. He'll be on the hill against Felix Hernandez in his next start.. and the hits (for the opposition, at least) just keep on coming...

I turned if off in the 2nd inning. What is so hard about finding a utility infielder who can SS?

This morning Manny said he we need solutions at 1B, 3B, LF and DH. I submit if we had solutions for 3 of the 4 the fourth would not be a problem. Kotchman on a team that scored runs would not be a liability. Hannahan on tea that scored runs would not be a liability. What a mess.

Manny is correct from the perspective of the offensive side of the game (he probably will define the needs of the starting pitching in the next interview..if any of the media determines that THAT'S the real problem).. The Indian's have a lineup that is about five players deep. At the outset of the 2012 season, it was hoped that the Indians lineup would be at least seven players deep, just like they had in the 90's. This required the return to form of Hafner and Sizemore. Effectively, the Indians would have:

It's clear to see that the top seven in the order would make this team stronger. As of this writing, two of the top four have been virtually absent the entire season and Carlos Santana has had a less than stellar season. In 2013, there will be no Grady ($ 5 MM).. no Pronk ($ 13 MM).. no Kotchman ($ 3MM).. and, probably, no Hannahan ($ 1.1 MM). Four spots to fill and $ 22 MM leaving. After the projected payroll increases for players such as Chris Perez, Shin-soo Choo & others, this will probably eat away about half this total.

The Indians cannot fill four spots with impact players for $ 11 MM... The improvements will have to come via the farm system, through astute trades and the possible signing of one or two FA's. Not exactly a rosy outlook...

Bearcatbob wrote:I turned if off in the 2nd inning. What is so hard about finding a utility infielder who can SS?

This morning Manny said he we need solutions at 1B, 3B, LF and DH. I submit if we had solutions for 3 of the 4 the fourth would not be a problem. Kotchman on a team that scored runs would not be a liability. Hannahan on tea that scored runs would not be a liability. What a mess.

Bob

Still a fan of Hannahan but he's a bench/utility guy, not a starter. That much is very clear. Doesn't matter what you put at the other positions. Same with Kotchamn. Supported the signing (pretty much had too sign him at that point) but not a guy you can bring back no matter what you had at the other positions.

GeronimoSon wrote:Manny is correct from the perspective of the offensive side of the game (he probably will define the needs of the starting pitching in the next interview..if any of the media determines that THAT'S the real problem).. The Indian's have a lineup that is about five players deep. At the outset of the 2012 season, it was hoped that the Indians lineup would be at least seven players deep, just like they had in the 90's. This required the return to form of Hafner and Sizemore. Effectively, the Indians would have:

It's clear to see that the top seven in the order would make this team stronger. As of this writing, two of the top four have been virtually absent the entire season and Carlos Santana has had a less than stellar season. In 2013, there will be no Grady ($ 5 MM).. no Pronk ($ 13 MM).. no Kotchman ($ 3MM).. and, probably, no Hannahan ($ 1.1 MM). Four spots to fill and $ 22 MM leaving. After the projected payroll increases for players such as Chris Perez, Shin-soo Choo & others, this will probably eat away about half this total.

The Indians cannot fill four spots with impact players for $ 11 MM... The improvements will have to come via the farm system, through astute trades and the possible signing of one or two FA's. Not exactly a rosy outlook...

That is assuming that either of Choo or Perez (or anyone else for that matter) return. As you said some clever deals will be needed in order to address multiple needs, or at least not create another hole to fill. Just depends on the value said players have, but if the Indians can move CP or even Choo in the winter, it just might be their best/only option before blowing up the whole thing.

If the Tribe re-tools for 2013 (as opposed to a total blow-up rebuild, which they probably won't do)....why not this:

Try to make two (for the Indians) bold moves: trade Choo (he's leaving anyway after '13) & Chris Perez (the only other guy with value that the Indians have at least an adequate replacement...Pestano, fingers crossed).

What do you want: at the very least, a major-league ready, very good OF, hopefully righthanded with some power or high OBP contact hitter)...and a very solid #3 or better starter (NOBODY will trade a star #1, or great #2 starter, even if you throw in Lake Erie and the rock hall of fame). Hopefully it's more than a total of 2 Indians players for 2 in-coming major leaguers...hopefully they can land a 1B or DH (right handed, with power).

What they do with Roberto "Fausto" Hernandez, Raffy Perez, and Tony Sipp....who knows?? Tomlin will likely get TJ surgery and be on the DL (hope it's not needed, but that's the rumor), and not sure when Carrasco will be ready to pitch again.

The above scenerio is to me, the best possible solution for 2013 and beyond. Not an easy thing, but makes the most sense to me considering the crappy situation the Indians find themselves in.

[quote="GeronimoSon"]A few notes and musings on the Indians weekend series with the Red Sox and other happenings around MLB..

-The Ubaldo effort was spectacular.. his best outing of the year, bar none.. one mistake (that he paid for), otherwise, he was large and in charge. 9-11 with an ERA at 5.25 is not great, but, in his last ten outings, he's been pretty much a .500 pitcher. When he's good.. he's very good.. While this has nothing to do with the Ubaldo, it should be noted that the players traded for him, Pomeranz, White, Gardner and McBride have TANKED recently.. The Rox have the two headed monster (Pom & White) at the ML level giving them a 3-13 record with a 5.48 ERA.. Matt McBride, after his tremendous AAA season & start to his ML career is now batting a palty .222 and Joe Gardner has regressed in the Rockies system.. Right now, in spite of the inconsistencies in Ubaldo's performance, he's better than all four guys combined..

To say any good has come from the ubaldo trade is just plain ridiculous. "when he's good, he's really good". Really?

It really doesn't matter that what pomeranz and white have produced. The point is that they had major value a year back. They were the top prospects in our system that any team would have wanted and we didn't get the right return. We wasted our assets. When you give up your two top prospects, you better be getting back a stud and this FO blew another trade.

Call it complaining about this FO all you want, but to sugercoat how bad of a trade this was for the indians is moronic. This team has nothing in their farm system. Next year will not be any different. We have nothing at akron or columbus right now. When you give up your 2 best prospects, you better be getting back a cliff lee/roy halladay type pitcher. Not the garbage we got back.

I keep hearing about the "two best prospects... given up".. and keep seeing the same thing..3-13, 5.48 ERA and regression of the other two guys..

The two best prospect..

The farm system is empty..

The sky is falling..

Blame Mark Shapiro..

Blame Chris Antonetti..

yada yada... Blow it all up..

What is indisputable is these alleged 'two best prospects' are struggling mightily in the weaker NL. PERIOD. To make a claim that the Indians should have gotten more or a better return, sure, why not.. but the two best prospect.. haven't performed & they may never perform. Too bad for the Rockies.. At this time, it's a pretty good likelihood that three of the four dealt in this trade won't be in the ML's next season. Only Drew Pomeranz will. At the trading deadline, 2011, would you trade Drew Pomeranz straight up for Ubaldo for 2 1/2 years?. Chris Antonetti did.. The Indians didn't need another # 4/#5/Middle Relief RH'er, an older former prospect 1B and a possible BP arm. Pomeranz, on the other hand, still has time to develop into something special..

indians1 wrote:To say any good has come from the ubaldo trade is just plain ridiculous. "when he's good, he's really good". Really?

It really doesn't matter that what pomeranz and white have produced. The point is that they had major value a year back. They were the top prospects in our system that any team would have wanted and we didn't get the right return. We wasted our assets. When you give up your two top prospects, you better be getting back a stud and this FO blew another trade.

Call it complaining about this FO all you want, but to sugercoat how bad of a trade this was for the indians is moronic. This team has nothing in their farm system. Next year will not be any different. We have nothing at akron or columbus right now. When you give up your 2 best prospects, you better be getting back a cliff lee/roy halladay type pitcher. Not the garbage we got back.

The problem is, Lee and Halladay weren't available. Jimenez was, sadly, the best pitcher available to the Indians at the trading deadline that year. He was the only one who had any shot at being a legitimate front of the rotation starter. It's nice to say in hindsight that we should have traded them for Pence instead, but Pence wouldn't be making us a playoff team right now. If Ubaldo had succeeded, then it's arguable we might be.

I think ultimately the Ubaldo trade was a "feel good" kind of decision. It's the kind of trade that fans like IronMike really wanted to see - us trading prospects for major leaguers for once instead of the other way around. It was an "all in" move, that ultimately backfired. A few people said last year that perhaps arriving "ahead of schedule" to contending would end up hurting the team long-term. Perhaps if we didn't jump out to that ridiculously awesome first month, we would have stuck to the plan, and maybe that would have been better for us this year and next year. As bad as Pom and White have been for Colorado, it's entirely possible they could have done better here where they don't have to deal with the added stress of Mile High. Pitchers tend to rack up injuries there much more quickly, and that's part of the reason they're doing the whole "8 man piggyback rotation" thing now.

Anywho, Zack McAllister is up tonight. Him and Kluber I figure are auditioning for 2013 at this point. When the team gets (hopefully) Tomlin and Carrasco back next year, it's going to be a crowded battle for rotation spots, unless they decide to get rid of both Hernandez and Ubaldo (which might be defensible moves, depending on how they pitch the rest of the year). The only guy I see that is guaranteed his spot is Masterson. McAllister has to be close to it, though.

It's simply amazing. Many posters on this board act like they are baseball experts, and rip a part what everybody else says like the rest of us are idiots. Well, that's the internet, I guess.

Hey, I'm just a fan. I worked in media for many decades and had connections with people especially with the Indians...but, again: I'm just a fan. Only I have a little bit more inside that most people. Doesn't make me an expert, but.....whatever.

In any case...the bottom line is, the Indians teams, except for parts of 2007, have been on a downhill slide since the Dolan family bought them.

The results of their player development department has been horrible since the Dolans bought them.

The condition of their farm system is as bad as it's been since the Dolans bought them.

They haven't even won an AL pennant since the Dolan family bought them.

The projectable immediate future doesn't seem to contain a realistic World Series caliber organization.

Who's responsible? What changes should be made? I only say the front office because the top couple guys are the only one's who HAVEN'T turned over since the Dolans bought the team. And, Shaprio is the person who's ultimately responsible for hiring or approving the hiring of everybody below him.

Will firing Mark help the Indians? Who the hell knows. What if Shapiro gets a great job 5 seconds after the Indians fire him? Who cares? You like the way things have gone since he took over for John Hart???

What other possible solution is there? The Dolans aren't going to fire themselves, and other than Mark Shapiro, everybody responsible for the on-field performance HAS been replaced over and over and over again...and the organization is beginning to smell a lot like they did in the 1970's and 1980's. Do any of you welcome THAT????

Under these circumstances...what would any of you do? Keep doing what they've always done since the Dolans bought the team????

timdav wrote:Hey, I'm just a fan. I worked in media for many decades and had connections with people especially with the Indians...but, again: I'm just a fan. Only I have a little bit more inside that most people. Doesn't make me an expert, but.....whatever.

I asked you all questions. Instead of answering any of them with your opinions, you claim I said I knew better than all of the rest of you...and that was "classic". That's not what I said or implied...you just took it the wrong way.

My profession just happened to be media that dealt with sports teams...the Indians included. It was what I did for a living for a long, long time.

As I clearly stated, that didn't make me an expert, it just gave me a lot more inside information and understanding of major league baseball than 95% of the public and fans.

If I'd been a plumber or banker or farmer...I'd know a lot more about those industries than the average person. That's just common sense.

What's "classic" is, it doesn't matter who you are or what you say, you get attacked.

I asked you all questions. Instead of answering any of them with your opinions, you claim I said I knew better than all of the rest of you...and that was "classic". That's not what I said or implied...you just took it the wrong way.

My profession just happened to be media that dealt with sports teams...the Indians included. It was what I did for a living for a long, long time.

As I clearly stated, that didn't make me an expert, it just gave me a lot more inside information and understanding of major league baseball than 95% of the public and fans.

If I'd been a plumber or banker or farmer...I'd know a lot more about those industries than the average person. That's just common sense.

What's "classic" is, it doesn't matter who you are or what you say, you get attacked.

But, you weren't a Major League Baseball player.... you may have covered it in the media.... if the Plain Dealer has taught us anything that doesn't mean you know more than the average person.

Please explain how the following don't contadict eachother

As I clearly stated, that didn't make me an expert, it just gave me a lot more inside information and understanding of major league baseball than 95% of the public and fans.

You know better than 95% of people, but you're not an expert?!

The fact is, you think your previous profession makes you superior to the rest of us when analysing Baseball..... if you didn't , you wouldn't bring it up!

Old friend Bartolo Colon toes the rubber for the A's this evening.. Corey Kluber looks to rebound from his previous start (three starts this season.. one bad one.. one good one.. one bad one.. ). Zeke Carrera has been hitting the ball and hitting it with regularity lately. Perhaps Manny moves Zeke the Streak into the lead off spot and moves Kipnis down in the order?

It might be time to move Brantley back to leadoff. He's swinging the bat better than anyone right now. Kipnis has hit the wall - he's no longer even an average hitter. Zeke is a good minor league ballplayer until he proves otherwise.

Prosecutor wrote:It might be time to move Brantley back to leadoff. He's swinging the bat better than anyone right now. Kipnis has hit the wall - he's no longer even an average hitter. Zeke is a good minor league ballplayer until he proves otherwise.

I wouldn't mind seeing Choo moved back to the lead off spot as well.. Zeke had his worst game of the season, going 0=fer four with two k's.. The two mistake pitches to Pennington and Cespedes were both hammered. During this current cold streak, whenever an Indians pitcher makes a mistake, he pays for it, dearly. When an opposition pitcher makes a mistake, the Indians hitter fouls the pitch off..

Even though the ball was in the dirt on Asdrubal's throw to first base.. that is a ball the HAS TO BE CAUGHT. That was a piss poor effort by Kotchman trying to come up with that ball and indirectly led to the four unearned runs..

Many of us have widely differening opinions on what the Indians should do. Sometimes we get heated and angry with each other.

Bottom line is....we all want the same thing: to see the Tribe win a World Series.

IMHO: the Dolans this off-season have to decide if they're OK with where there franchise is...both financially and on-the-field.

And, if they aren't, stop blaming the organization's shortcomings on major and minor league managers, coaches, scouting/farm directors, scouts, and hundreds and hundreds of players in their ownership tenure. After all these years, that just sounds lame: you get rid of all these people and very little changes on the field.

Replace the Indians top management employee who's ultimately responsible for hiring all of them.

For most of his tenure putting together the team and suggesting or approving all trades and free agent signings was ultimately his responsiblity. The only top management person who hasn't gotten replaced the 12 years the Dolans have owned the Indians.

This season is obviously frustrating. I have virtually no confidence in this team from ownership on down. The big league club has "run for the bus" mentality, or so it appears. Acts has no fire. Players don't seem to develop in this system. There is no confidence shown by management for guys like Neal, Goedert, Phelps, etc. Kipnis has regressed in the second half. Santana has been a disappointment. The guys they've brought in have basically sucked. Bad drafts for years and no reason to believe the past couple of drafts will turn our much better, as this team does not seem to know how to develop players. A guy in AAA can hit .380 but won't get promoted unless he is a high profile guy. I believe this organization needs a total housecleaning.

What a crap season, all down the toilet since beating Verlander. The management's response, rather than to make any remotely significant move, was to add Lillibridge and swap Stephen Wright for Lars Anderson.

Alot of you are pissed off because you had unrealistic expectations. Especially when it came to the trading deadline.

Obviously I'm dissapointed about the way this season has progressed, but it didn't come out of the blue. We've had a terrible run differential all season long and it was bound to catch up in terms of W/L.

I'm still of the opinion that this roster needs to be blown up for the most part, because adding one or two pieces will do nothing.

JP_Frost wrote:Alot of you are pissed off because you had unrealistic expectations. Especially when it came to the trading deadline.

Obviously I'm dissapointed about the way this season has progressed, but it didn't come out of the blue. We've had a terrible run differential all season long and it was bound to catch up in terms of W/L.

I'm still of the opinion that this roster needs to be blown up for the most part, because adding one or two pieces will do nothing.

I sort of agree and disagree with the statement about expectations going into the trade deadline. Nobody expected the Indians to litterally do nothing but play Xbox all day (so to speak). No one player was going to make this season a 1st place finish, but they didn't do anything to help the team regardless. I honestly believe, that while they players will never admit defeat or that the "quit" but they've played worse than ever since the Verlander game, below even their capabilities IMO.

I agree that blowing it up is unfortunatly a viable option going forward, a sort of 'reset' since they blew their wads for Ubaldo last year. It just didn't work out as hoped.

I would obviously prefer them to move just Chris Perez and/or Choo due to rising costs and impending FA, but they have to be willing to listen on almost anyone except the likes of Kipnis, Pestano, maybe Santana. Going to be near impossible to get proper value for young talent with so many seasons of control over (wish I could include Chisenhall in there too, he just cant stay healthy).