I feel the same, though she was competent with a sword, her threats were of the spoken variety...and there wasn't enough evidence that any of them carried much weight.

I wondered what would have made her great...first the qualites I saw:

Determined

She definitely had an unstoppable drive to achieve her goal.

Immoral

She was certainly willing to violate accepted moral principles in order to accomplish her goals.

Intelligent

The debate rages, was she intellectually gifted or as mentioned above driven. Simply put: did she work harder or smarter? She certainly did not force Indy to his A-Game.

She did get into a secret US Military Base, problem is, the intelligence to do so is all implied.

Powerful

As mentioned she talked the talk, and had Dovchenko, Soviet resources...again the problem of implied vs illustrated.
As a femme fatale she could have used her charms, (any charm) to influence Indy.

Wounded

As a swordsman/woman, a disfigurement or physical wound would have been excellent and classic. A more fleshed out emotional or psychological wound might have been helpful to.

I'd say she was a few quirks shy of great...

Good list. I agree with pretty much all of it.

Personally, I would have liked to see Irina depicted as a full-on sympathetic villain. That would be unique for the Indy films, and as Blanchett portrays her in KOTCS, she gives off the impression of a femme fatale/anti-hero and not really evil per se.

Kinda like Belloq, probably the most popular Indy villain to date.

So, I ask this: why does everyone love Rene, but poor Irina is bombarded with hate, or, at best, indifference by so many? She's basically Belloq as a woman.

So, I ask this: why does everyone love Rene, but poor Irina is bombarded with hate, or, at best, indifference by so many? She's basically Belloq as a woman.

And that's an interesting twist, to me...

Belloq was a believable character while Spalko was more like watching a cartoon character. She would have been more a home in a Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoon than in a Indy movie. Not bashing the film but comparing her to Belloq seems a bit extreme to me.

So, I ask this: why does everyone love Rene, but poor Irina is bombarded with hate, or, at best, indifference by so many? She's basically Belloq as a woman.

And that's an interesting twist, to me...

Henry hit it on the head:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry W Jones

they implied she was psychic and never showed it.

Just dealing with this first, Belloq was a straight up mercenary. When he does mention the supernatural it's not as a believer.

They walk down the ESP road way too early and she fails right off the bat. I'd like to say it left me thinking Indy was strong, but it was really: Irina's weak.

There was a certain style they established that they never lived up to. Irina listed off her achievements but as a "psychic" she was a joke. There was never any indication, not even coincidentally, that she might have had "powers".

Whatever paranormal expert she might have been, she didn't even recognize Ox's "Auto-Writing"

They wrote her character poorly, and sad to say it seems Blanchette didn't challenge them into making her more...or at least "something."

Other than a few key moments, nothing in KOTCS is great. The movie is good with some great moments. Is she a "horrible" villain? No. But is she "great"? No on that one as well. I still love KOTCS and look forward to seeing it on the big screen soon but it is overall a poorly conceived film for the Indy franchise. Good but not great.

I'm inclined to agree with Spielberg that Spalko is the best villain in the entire Indy series. Simply put, which of all the villains would you rather see an entire spinoff movie devoted to? Belloq? Boring and French. Toht? One-note sadist who probably couldn't even beat up a girl without his muscle there to help him. Mola Ram? Colorful, but he's mostly just a cackling brute with the thinnest of motivation. Donovan? So boring he bores the boring. The actor's line readings are often totally stilted and flat. Elsa? Kind of an interesting character, but totally non-threatening as a villain. Dietrich and Vogel? Good Nazi brutes without a shred of character development or depth to them. Mac? The less said, the better.

Spalko has everything. Great bad-ass fighting skills, spooky supernatural powers, intelligent dialogue, motivated by a misguided but patriotic pride in her socialist country as well as scientific theory as opposed to just a quest for artifacts or the desire to kill people, exotic accent and seductive looks. Blanchett along with Freeman give the best performances of the series' villains, showing convincing emotion that goes beyond the printed lines of the screenplay. She's the best thing in Crystal Skull.

Spalko has everything. Great bad-ass fighting skills, spooky supernatural powers, intelligent dialogue, motivated by a misguided but patriotic pride in her socialist country as well as scientific theory as opposed to just a quest for artifacts or the desire to kill people, exotic accent and seductive looks. Blanchett along with Freeman give the best performances of the series' villains, showing convincing emotion that goes beyond the printed lines of the screenplay. She's the best thing in Crystal Skull.

I never really saw Mac as a villain, just a very misguided and greedy person, but not really evil or threatening.

I agree that Spalko is the best thing in Crystal Skull but I don't feel like we were given a chance to really get to know her and all the aspects you mention of her. Maybe they should have had her like an Elsa, where she seduces Indy and then her true colors come out?

And as much as I like Cate's and Paul Freeman's performances, I think every villain actor did an excellent job. Whether they had a lot to work with or a little bit, they were all perfect for their roles and played them to perfection.

Just dealing with this first, Belloq was a straight up mercenary. When he does mention the supernatural it's not as a believer.

But he's the one that says, "Do you realize what this is? It's a transmitter for speaking to God." (with God?) And he believes it. Perhaps not as a devout Jew, but he believes in it enough to don the gear and perform the ritual to the Bible's standards. At the same time, he is still a mercenary, and calls himself such. But the Nazis will only get the Ark after he's finished with it.

Completely off topic here, but that makes me wonder -- what was Belloq going to talk to God about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon

Whatever paranormal expert she might have been, she didn't even recognize Ox's "Auto-Writing"

I thought the same thing at the marathon. Indy picked up on it right away.

Something else I noticed during the marathon was just how much screen time Spalko got. I'd have to rewatch all the films with a stopwatch, but it seems Spalko has far more screen time than any other villain.

Part of that has to do with the fact that Indy tags along half the time helping her in her quest. What's up with that? They really give no solid explanation as to why Indy helps them get the alien mummy in Hangar 51. They say, "Go fetch," and he obliges. And he cuts to the chase and does it quickly. He didn't even stall. Later in the jungle he's all over the translating and figuring out the maps, etc. It takes Mutt to get some real action going. It doesn't seem Indy is that concerned with their escape.

These are Indiana Jones movies, so you can't expect to really "get to know" the characters. Characterization is written in shorthand in these films. And I thought it was done better with Spalko than with most. I get a really good sense of who she is, such that I can make a good prediction on how she might act if she were thrust into a new situation. That's difficult to do with Elsa. Last Crusade also suffered by using the gimmick of the villain who pretends to be a good guy and then reveals themselves twice. Which Crystal Skull just fell off the cliff trying to do with Mac.

Spalko in fact takes most of the best qualities of the previous villains and puts them in one package, Belloq's intelligence, Mola Ram's mysticism, Dietrich's sense of loyalty, Elsa's seductiveness, Toht's ruthlessness and even the swordfighting skills and hand-to-hand combat skills of the various henchmen and brutes. What a package! To give another point to Skull on its villains, Dovchenko was a great, dead-eyed bruiser who was a worthy successor to Pat Roach's thugs. And I may as well add that the ants were the most effective scary creature since the original film's snakes.

Spalko was a case where we were really properly shown who she was as a character rather than told. I don't think it was that effective to basically have Belloq sit there and describe who he is through dialogue. And the whole "it would take only a nudge to make you like me" conversation didn't really have much weight, because we know so little about who Belloq is and what he's done. All we know is he hired some natives to steal the idol from Indy and then kill Indy, and he was willing to work with the Nazis. It's not like Indy himself is above stealing, at least not when it comes to the Cross of Coronado. We see how Indy was coerced to work with the Russians, so for all we know Belloq was working with the Nazis due to coercion. Belloq suffers as a villain because it's hard to really hate him. He tries to protect Marion for one thing and he never does anything directly violent, although he tries to kill Indy through surrogates. Belloq wasn't really lying when he said it would take only a nudge to make Indy like him. Recast Belloq without the French accent (Tom Selleck?) and it'd be easy to forget that he even was a villain.

These are Indiana Jones movies, so you can't expect to really "get to know" the characters. Characterization is written in shorthand in these films. And I thought it was done better with Spalko than with most. I get a really good sense of who she is, such that I can make a good prediction on how she might act if she were thrust into a new situation. That's difficult to do with Elsa. Last Crusade also suffered by using the gimmick of the villain who pretends to be a good guy and then reveals themselves twice. Which Crystal Skull just fell off the cliff trying to do with Mac.

Spalko in fact takes most of the best qualities of the previous villains and puts them in one package, Belloq's intelligence, Mola Ram's mysticism, Dietrich's sense of loyalty, Elsa's seductiveness, Toht's ruthlessness and even the swordfighting skills and hand-to-hand combat skills of the various henchmen and brutes. What a package! To give another point to Skull on its villains, Dovchenko was a great, dead-eyed bruiser who was a worthy successor to Pat Roach's thugs. And I may as well add that the ants were the most effective scary creature since the original film's snakes.

Spalko was a case where we were really properly shown who she was as a character rather than told. I don't think it was that effective to basically have Belloq sit there and describe who he is through dialogue. And the whole "it would take only a nudge to make you like me" conversation didn't really have much weight, because we know so little about who Belloq is and what he's done. All we know is he hired some natives to steal the idol from Indy and then kill Indy, and he was willing to work with the Nazis. It's not like Indy himself is above stealing, at least not when it comes to the Cross of Coronado. We see how Indy was coerced to work with the Russians, so for all we know Belloq was working with the Nazis due to coercion. Belloq suffers as a villain because it's hard to really hate him. He tries to protect Marion for one thing and he never does anything directly violent, although he tries to kill Indy through surrogates. Belloq wasn't really lying when he said it would take only a nudge to make Indy like him. Recast Belloq without the French accent (Tom Selleck?) and it'd be easy to forget that he even was a villain.

They walk down the ESP road way too early and she fails right off the bat...Irina listed off her achievements but as a "psychic" she was a joke. There was never any indication, not even coincidentally, that she might have had "powers".

The point wasn't to have her use the powers directly. Having a character running around reading minds all the time wouldn't be something we'd want to see in an Indiana Jones movie. I like the fact that we never really find out if she really has that power at all or is just delusional. The Indiana Jones movies always flirt with the idea of whether the artifacts really have powers or don't. (Side note, my idea for the 5th and final Indiana Jones films would be that the big finale happens and the artifact turns out to have no powers at all...ending with a line like "sometimes a rock is just a rock.") So the idea that Spalko's powers may or may not be there fits in with that sense of toying with the supernatural but not putting the whole movie in the supernatural world from start to finish. Where I think the movie sags is when they have the skull and suddenly its supernatural powers start motivating the action throughout the jungle scenes.

Nevertheless, the idea of Spalko having an interest in psychic powers is organic to the plot and key to her motivation. This is why she has such an interest in the skulls, because of her theory of accessing untapped segments of the human brain and implanting communist thoughts in them. Which, to me, is the most interesting "grand evil scheme" in the movies at least since Raiders (The Sankara stones were going to kill Christians, Hindus, Jews and Muslims? How? Donovan was going to use the grail for eternal life but Hitler was just going to put it on a shelf before he went the way of the dodo? Why?). Crystal Skull's villainous plan also fits in perfectly with the paranoia themes of this early Cold War era.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon

Whatever paranormal expert she might have been, she didn't even recognize Ox's "Auto-Writing"

That really has nothing to do with her character and everything to do with the fact that the screenplay was backed into a corner and needed Oxley to be doing something at that moment that only Indy, not the Russians could figure out. They just couldn't think of a really good idea to use. Hence Irina's line to cover it, "I can't believe I didn't notice that" or something.

Completely off topic here, but that makes me wonder -- what was Belloq going to talk to God about?

It would probably have been something along the lines of, "How odd that it should end this way for us after so many stimulating encounters. I almost regret it. Where shall I find a new adversary so close to my own level?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

The point wasn't to have her use the powers directly. Having a character running around reading minds all the time wouldn't be something we'd want to see in an Indiana Jones movie. I like the fact that we never really find out if she really has that power at all or is just delusional.

Spalko was a fraud. She had originally somehow duped Stalin into believing her to be a witch. Yet all she was, was a psychic investigator like so many other frauds operating in that world of hoaxes.

She couldn't even tell where Indy was going, and had to use that clumsy device, otherwise known as "Mac", to drop tracking beacons.

When it came to her demise she even lost her scientific insight, which ultimately sealed her fate.

She had potential to be a much greater and more intimidating villain. Yet, instead, she just comes off as a great pretender.

I don't like villains to come off as "great" or flawless. To me its the heroes that should be admirable, not the villains. If a villain starts looking too brilliant or brave, that's a problem. They should be flawed people who make mistakes or otherwise do things that make them unlikable.

What Spalko does during the movie, especially the jungle chase makes her powerful and intimidating enough to me. She's a good evil schemer and a good fighter. Not sure what else you needed her to do. Most Indy villains don't end up in a dramatic final showdown with the hero, only Mola Ram. The others were dispatched through their own hubris, just like Spalko was. The flaw there as far as I'm concerned is that the skulls/aliens were so ill-defined as a supernatural force that we were just watching special effects wipe her out, rather than understanding or appreciating WTF was going on.

I don't like villains to come off as "great" or flawless. To me its the heroes that should be admirable, not the villains. If a villain starts looking too brilliant or brave, that's a problem. They should be flawed people who make mistakes or otherwise do things that make them unlikable.

Belloq was a worthy opponent for a flawed Indiana. Too many sadistic Tohts existed in real life. Mola Ram displayed paranormal powers. Donovan was obsessed, as was Elsa who rode a fine line between right and wrong. Vogel was another expression of sadism.

Spalko was riding high on Stalin's trust in Khrushchev's era. If she'd been created as another of the obsessed then that would have made her like many others in Indy's environment. However, she was more flawed than most. Not only did she not have any powers, but her scientific judgement was also found wanting. Even with her knowledge she fell into the trap that killed Belloq and Elsa.

Like those before her, she thought she could control the game. Didn't realize she was the pawn being sacrificed.

In essence she was a miltary fencing champion masquerading as a possessor of psychic powers.

I'm inclined to agree with Spielberg that Spalko is the best villain in the entire Indy series.

Sources PLEASE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Simply put, which of all the villains would you rather see an entire spinoff movie devoted to? Belloq? Boring and French.

It speaks volumes that's all you took from his character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Spalko has everything. Great bad-ass fighting skills, spooky supernatural powers, intelligent dialogue, motivated by a misguided but patriotic pride in her socialist country as well as scientific theory as opposed to just a quest for artifacts or the desire to kill people, exotic accent and seductive looks.

She fought a high school drop out and cut him on the cheek. But I did like the kick she connects with Mutts face.
She had NO powers.
What dialog was intelligent?
There was no indication her "patriotism" was anything more than a means to her own ends, and her end illustrates that.
Pride in scientific theory? Huh? Where?
I guess we have to differ on the exotic accent because it sounded like a cartoon to me especially the way she would monologue point and yell the majority of the time.
Seductive looks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Blanchett...give the best performances of the series' villains, showing convincing emotion that goes beyond the printed lines of the screenplay

Where?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodeknight

But he's the one that says, "Do you realize what this is? It's a transmitter for speaking to God." (with God?) And he believes it. Perhaps not as a devout Jew, but he believes in it enough to don the gear and perform the ritual to the Bible's standards. At the same time, he is still a mercenary, and calls himself such. But the Nazis will only get the Ark after he's finished with it.

I always took that as Belloqs way of appealing to others passions, (or what he believes to be). That he has plans for the ark doesn't support any belief in God as much as he's trying to pull strings and using the kind of speech that will effect his victory. Whether the power is perceived or real he wants it, and who is it that truly believes and thinks he can control God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodeknight

Indy tags along half the time helping her in her quest. What's up with that? They really give no solid explanation as to why Indy helps them get the alien mummy in Hangar 51. They say, "Go fetch," and he obliges. And he cuts to the chase and does it quickly. He didn't even stall. Later in the jungle he's all over the translating and figuring out the maps, etc. It takes Mutt to get some real action going. It doesn't seem Indy is that concerned with their escape.

The film is poorly written and executed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

These are Indiana Jones movies, so you can't expect to really "get to know" the characters. Characterization is written in shorthand in these films. And I thought it was done better with Spalko than with most. I get a really good sense of who she is, such that I can make a good prediction on how she might act if she were thrust into a new situation.

You can't expect to get to know them, but you could predict (well enough) what Spalko would do?

That you know what a villain is capable of defeats any surprise, tension and ultimately learning complex motivations, but as you put it, and I paraphrase it: Spalko is a one note cartoon villain...and that's OK if you want it/like it but it surely doesn't make her great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Spalko in fact takes most of the best qualities of the previous villains and puts them in one package, Belloq's intelligence...

Lets add:
Boring
French
Best Villain Performances of the series (+/- Spalko: To be determined)
Convincing emotion beyond screenplay
Intelligent

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Spalko was a case where we were really properly shown who she was as a character rather than told.

She reads her resume from her first moments on screen, otherwise she monologues, points, screams...what they show us is that she's a fraud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

I don't think it was that effective to basically have Belloq sit there and describe who he is through dialogue...And the whole "it would take only a nudge to make you like me" conversation didn't really have much weight, because we know so little about who Belloq is and what he's done. All we know is he hired some natives to steal the idol from Indy and then kill Indy, and he was willing to work with the Nazis.

♫Getting to know you, getting to know all about you♪...

That's what its about: suspense. We know he and Jones have a past and that Belloq is screwing the Hovitos. That he's comfortable ordering him dead its all we need to know and Raiders does a phenomenal job advancing the story while maintaining the suspense. The nudge conversation isn't meant to "have much weight" its meant to forward the story and reveal character. He said what he needed to provoke Indy, and he did...Indy went from considering killing him to going for his gun. It was another great fight scene, a break from the action to an improbable one on one where we get motivation, not lengthy boring posturing with Indy shackled to a chair.

In that scene we're exactly like Indy...being force fed Spalko's line of crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Belloq suffers as a villain because it's hard to really hate him.

What movie were you watching? What redeeming qualities does he show?

Is it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

He tries to protect Marion for one thing and he never does anything directly violent

Its quite clear he wants something from Marion and he reacts aptly: "The girl was mine"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Recast Belloq without the French accent (Tom Selleck?) and it'd be easy to forget that he even was a villain.

HA! you're funny, its plain you're goofing. You're all over the place!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

The point wasn't to have her use the powers directly.

What was the point? That she was a fake phony fraud?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Having a character running around reading minds all the time wouldn't be something we'd want to see in an Indiana Jones movie.

Sure, but if you're going to indulge the conceit, what's the point in spending time with the potential to read minds if it NEVER comes into play?

Spielberg must have meant to show she's a phony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

I like the fact that we never really find out if she really has that power at all or is just delusional. The Indiana Jones movies always flirt with the idea of whether the artifacts really have powers or don't. So the idea that Spalko's powers may or may not be there fits in with that sense of toying with the supernatural but not putting the whole movie in the supernatural world from start to finish.

I don't, its a red herring that only distracts from a poorly written film, like the switchblade rip and many other examples its content that goes nowhere and does nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Where I think the movie sags is when they have the skull and suddenly its supernatural powers start motivating the action throughout the jungle scenes.

They went off the rails, showing supernatural phenomena too early...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

Nevertheless, the idea of Spalko having an interest in psychic powers is organic to the plot...

What does that mean?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediJones

That really has nothing to do with her character and everything to do with the fact that the screenplay was backed into a corner and needed Oxley to be doing something at that moment that only Indy, not the Russians could figure out.

How do you know that? It has EVERYTHING to do with her character, it shows a failing of her actual perception beyond the failing of her psychic perception

One problem I have with Spalko is that I almost liked her too much and/or felt sorry for her and didn't want to see her meet her demise.

Not that I'm a violent person, but I did get a sort of satisfaction at seeing the defeat of Belloq and Mola Ram, and while I admit I feel a little bit sorry for Donovan, I still felt sorrier for Spalko.

Maybe it's just Cate Blanchett being so pretty. I don't know.

But in any case, she just must not have come across to me as dastardly enough to really feel she deserved her end.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Quote:

Its quite clear he wants something from Marion and he reacts aptly: "The girl was mine"...

Agreed. I never saw his "caring" about Marion as a sign of Belloq being a good person, just that he was physically attracted to Marion. If Marion had been homely or a male friend of Indy's, I highly doubt Belloq would care what happened to this person.

SPIELBERG: She's a very threatening villain. Of all the villains I've been able to work with in the Indiana Jones movies, I can say she's my favorite. And I think Cate made her that way. We gave her a template for this, but she invented the character.

I never saw his "caring" about Marion as a sign of Belloq being a good person, just that he was physically attracted to Marion. If Marion had been homely or a male friend of Indy's, I highly doubt Belloq would care what happened to this person.

It also occurred to me recently that Belloq may have simply wanted to add one more item to his collection of things Indiana Jones once possessed that he now has. Since he takes not only the fertility idol but also Indy's whip and gun, he may have a display case filled with Webleys and whips.

SPIELBERG: She's a very threatening villain. Of all the villains I've been able to work with in the Indiana Jones movies, I can say she's my favorite. And I think Cate made her that way. We gave her a template for this, but she invented the character.

The actor "deeply regrets" his negative comments about Indiana Jones, revealing they ruptured his relationship with Steven Spielberg. "He told me there's a time to be a human being and have an opinion, and there's a time to sell cars,"

Nope. No reason for him to go out on that far of a limb. He could've just said she's a great villain, an original villain, etc. And in the same documentaries he discusses his issues with Lucas over developing the script. But, whatever. You have your own opinions that you seem to think are facts, enough to claim they're more valid than actual facts that are presented to you.

Nope. No reason for him to go out on that far of a limb. He could've just said she's a great villain, an original villain, etc. And in the same documentaries he discusses his issues with Lucas over developing the script. But, whatever. You have your own opinions that you seem to think are facts, enough to claim they're more valid than actual facts that are presented to you.

Nope. No reason for him to go out on that far of a limb. He could've just said she's a great villain, an original villain, etc. And in the same documentaries he discusses his issues with Lucas over developing the script. But, whatever. You have your own opinions that you seem to think are facts, enough to claim they're more valid than actual facts that are presented to you.

Sales. Regarding those documentary discussions, when you're a hired gun directing a film you didn't want to make, titled for an object you don't like, you have to accentuate the positive. In context it doesn't come off as such a lengthy limb after all.

He could have offered a money back guarantee...but "whatever".

How do you conclude I substitute opinions for facts and claim my opinions are more valid than facts?