Welcome

Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and
others concerned about HIV/AIDS. Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the
conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning: Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive
and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a
username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own
physician.

All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators
of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please
provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are
true and correct to their knowledge.

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the
symbol in each box.

Welcome to Am I Infected

IMPORTANT UPDATE
Posted Tuesday, August 28, 2012

Welcome to the "Am I Infected?" POZ forum.

New members -- those who have posted three or fewer messages -- are permitted to post questions and responses, free of charge (make them count!). Ongoing participation in the "Am I Infected?" forum -- posting more than three questions or responses -- requires a paid subscription.

A seven-day subscription
is $9.99, a 30-day subscription is $14.99 and a 90-day subscription is $24.99.

Anyone who needs to post more than three messages in the "Am I Infected?" forum -- including past, present and future POZ Forums members -- will need to subscribe, with
secure payments made via PayPal.

There will be no charge to continue reading threads in the
"Am I Infected?" forum, nor will there be a charge for participating
in any of the Main Forums; Meds, Mind, Body & Benefits; and Off Topic
Forums. Similarly, all POZ and AIDSmeds pages,
including our "How is HIV
Transmitted?" and "Am I Infected? (A
Guide to Testing for HIV)" lessons, will remain accessible to
all.

NOTE: HIV testing questions will still need to be posted in the "Am I
Infected?" forum; attempts to post HIV symptoms or testing questions in any other forums will be considered violations of our rules of membership and subject to time-outs and permanent bans.

To learn how to upgrade your Forums account
to participate beyond three posts in the "Am I Infected?" Forum, please click here.

Thank you for your understanding
and future support of the best online support service for people living with,
affected by and at risk for HIV.

First of I would like to thank all the people that responded to my original thread. You helped me through a tremendously difficult time. I have one quick question...it has been said that there is no risk in fingering...does that include when a woman is menstruating? Thank you for your time & consideration.

I'd like to remind you of the last thing I said to you in the old forum.

Quote

What are you doing still hanging around here? You were told back in March that your tests after the unprotected intercourse were conclusively negative and you were told repeatedly in April that fingering and getting a blowjob are not risks for hiv infection. You are hiv negative, get used to it.

If you cannot accept your negative results or the risk information you have been given here, then it would be a good idea for you to seek the assistance of a mental health care professional to help you work through your anxieties surrounding sex. That is not what this forum is for and we can do no more for you here. You are hiv negative. Move on with your life.

Have you spoken to a professional yet? Even with all the bells and whistles on this new forum, we still cannot offer you counseling here.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I'm not trying to upset anyone, I completely understand that receiving oral sex is not a risk. I'm over that...I just don't get how if I fingered a woman during her period...how is that NOT a risk??? I didn't have any cuts on my fingers and I did not see blood. Is it just because it has never been documented? This is my last post, I have not had any unprotected sex, I will always use a condom, I'm not worried about oral because of the mechanics of the whole thing. I'm just scared about getting HIV from fingering a woman during her period, whose status is unknown.

If you didn't have cuts nor see blood - then how exactly does HIV get into you assuming they were HIV positive anyhow? I agree with everyone here. MOVE ON.

R

Logged

NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

If you are worried about fingering a woman when she is on her period, don't do it. You don't have to do anything that makes you uncomfortable - and that goes for your sexual partners too, by the way. I would hope that if you are being intimate with another person, you would be able to ask if she was on or about to start her period. Many women don't like to have sexual relations during menses anyway.

But seriously, fingering does not transmit hiv infection.

If this continues to prey on your mind, please get some support for yourself in the form of face-to-face counseling. You'd be amazed at how much that can help - give it a try. OK?

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Thank you, Ann, for the reply. I am going on Monday to get counseling. I just want to make sure that I got this, fingering does not transmit HIV infection and that includes when a woman in menstruating. So I do NOT need to test for this incident right? That's all.

Fingering does NOT transmit hiv whether or not she's on her period or any other spin you can think of to put on it. Fingering is not a risk for hiv infection and no, you do not need to test over this specific incident.

Good luck with the counseling - you're doing the right thing by seeking some face-to-face support for yourself.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

So ok, on Monday I saw a counselor. I printed out this thread and told her about all the stress I'm having with this whole fingering issue. She said that I have a lot of guilt for my actions and that I'm also stressed from other things, work, family, etc and that is adding to my irrational fear of HIV. I told her about that night and really, I didn't have any cuts on my fingers or see blood...but...you know how some people bite their nails and stuff like that...well, I had bitten some of the skin around my fingernail and that is where all this fear is coming from. I asked the psychologist if she thought that was a way to transmit HIV and she said that she didn't know. That it would be best to speak with an expert? So...I was just wondering if I had bitten around the skin, and say I got blood from the girl's period (even though I never saw blood) could it happen to me??? Or would I need a fresh, deep, open cut to transmit?

Again, I took your advice and I don't mean to ask this question, but the psychologist did not know and you guys are the only experts that I can trust. She said that once I speak to an expert and get my question answered, then we can continue to work through my other issues and work through this "irrational fear". Sorry to bother you guys again.

Again, no deep bleeding wound...just skin bitten around a fingernail that was bleeding earlier in the day. It never turned into a scab so I don't know if that means it was so shallow... I don't know...you guys are the experts.

[Fingering does NOT transmit hiv whether or not she's on her period or any other spin you can think of to put on it. Fingering is not a risk for hiv infection and no, you do not need to test over this specific incident.

Any other spin means just that - including cuts, hangnails and bitten skin. Fingering is NOT a risk for hiv infection. No way, no how. Not in the real world.

Not one person has ever become infected through fingering in all of the twenty-five year history of this pandemic, and you will not be the first.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Sorry to bother you guys again...another quick question. The day after this incident I got extremely sick. Fever, Throwing up, Diarrhea, is it even possible that I got symptoms of ARS? The symptoms only lasted 3 hours? Just wondering, I know you guys think I'm stupid for asking.

Sorry to bother you guys again...another quick question. The day after this incident I got extremely sick. Fever, Throwing up, Diarrhea, is it even possible that I got symptoms of ARS? The symptoms only lasted 3 hours? Just wondering, I know you guys think I'm stupid for asking.

Mck,

Since you've not been exposed to HIV (remember fingering isn't a risk for HIV, menstrual blood or not) then the symptoms you describe cannot possibly have anything to do with Acute Retroviral Syndrome. Re-read the comments you have received thus far and our glorious Welcome Thread.

Sorry to bother you guys again. I was just wondering. I remember in the old forums that JK had posted some type of information as to why fingering is not a risk (with or without menstral blood). Is there any way he, or someone else could post why fingering is not a risk. I would just like to look at the science of it. Thank you.

Thing is, it is not enough for HIV infected blood or fluids to enter your bloodstream in order to infect.

In fingering, only menstrual blood carries any significantly infectious fluids. This is because the vaginal secretions found in the vaginal walls and the opening of the vagina are relatively uninfectious. it is the cervical fluids, deeper in the vaginal area, which pose a greater infectivity risk due to a higher concentration of active HIV.

Note I use the term ACTIVE and not alive. technically, HIV is not alive. It cannot reproduce on it's own. It requires a very specific type of white blood cell to infect with it's genetic material and essentially turn into an HIV producing factory. These receptive cells are commonly found in the urethra, in the dendritic cells under an uncircumsized foreskin, in the anus, and in the vagina. To a far lessor degree, there are some in the tonsil area as well.

So we have established that even if infectious fluids got into a cut in your finger, they would have to travel through your bloodstream and encounter one of these receptive cells. Not as likely event, at all. To the point where forcing it to happen in a lab using monkeys/primates and SHIV is largely unsuccessful. In a petri dish? Perhaps. In a bipedal organism? Difficult, if not impossible to achieve.

Now, about those infectious fluids. You realize that HIV mutates constantly, correct? Part of it's difficulty as regards a cure or vaccine is this constant mutation. Not the sort of mutation that makes a blood-borne pathogen airborne, but one which, in the long run, helps it to survive. HIV wears down an immune system by stimulating an immune response once the host is infected. And the host then produces antibodies, which destroy the viral particles and infected cells that are recognized.

Almost all the HIV is gone from the blood. However, reservoirs in the brain, organs, and lymphatic system are still there, and they mutate just enough so that the body must re-recognize them and mount another immune defense. This goes on for years and years in most cases, until the ability of the body to mount further defenses is compromised to the point where the immune system basically collapses. During this time, the host is left more and more defenseless against common pathogens, until finally it succumbs, either to an external pathogen or an internal function that an intact immune system would otherwise regulate.

You did ask for the long version.

Knowing this, and keeping in mind that the virus constantly mutates, it is not a particularly efficient virus. Most of the mutations are worthless, lacking one protein or another which makes it basically inactive, unviable. It is Darwinism at a miscroscopic scale, and greatly advanced.

See, the perfect HIV, the "goal," if you will, of HIV is to infect a host and reproduce and spread without killing the host. Not due to any altruism on it's part, but a dead host can't infect others. This is why outbreaks of Ebola and Marberg viruses are almost always brief and contained. it would take much engineering to reproduce a species-killer like "The Stand." It would involve a virus behaving in a totally different fashion than any other.

So the odds of an active, VIABLE viral particle finding it's way INTO your bloodstream, finding a receptive white blood cell (dendritic and T cells) and then successfully injecting it with it's genetic material - through a cut in the FINGER which almost instantly seals itself from external danger, and which bombards the area with elements specifically dsigned to protect and heal the skin - is purely in the realm of the theoretical. Why is there so little research? because it can't be forced to happen with any regularity in a lab, in a primate, in a monkey.

It has never been documented to happen. In the real world, the one we live in, it does not happen. It is hell on wheels to even make something like that occur in a carefully monitored laboratory. Even a petri dish is no friend to HIV.

Why do some doctors and scientists still caution? Because people mired in academia are rarely in touch with the actual, quantifiable world. The notion of "theoretical risk" and 'actual risk" are merged into a single hysterical message. There is a theoretical risk that a planet-destroying asteroid will smash the earth. There is a theoretical risk that our sun will explode. I think you get my intent here.

Let me recap:

Vaginal secretions: extremely unlikely to infect even if exposed to dendritic cells. Thus, cunnilingus is not considered a viable HIV risk.

Fingers: self sealing, and not containing receptive cells which HIV needs in order to infect.

Brothel: in western and industrialized nations, sex workers have a relatively low HIv rate compared to sex workers in Africa and other industrialized nations. However, even an HIv positive female is not going to have enough active viral particles in her vaginal secretions to present a risk to a finger or a tongue.

I hope this made sense. If you wish, I can expound and expand.

Fingering is not a risk for HIV, and PEP/testing is not warranted for such an activity.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I just wanted to say thank you to Ann & JK for the research. I don't mean to be a pest; but, after reading that thread one spot worries me... "In fingering, only menstrual blood carries any significantly infectious fluids".

Since I fingered a girl on her period, do I not have a small risk since I had a raw skin around my fingernail from biting it earlier that day? If you can just explain this last part, I will be able to accept why fingering is not a risk. Do I need to have an actively bleeding wound, or is my cut not even considered an open cut because it wasn't bleeding. I'm just trying to understand the science. Thank you again for the post!

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Yes. In the recorded history of HIv epidemiology, there has never been a transmission through fingering. Painting simian/primate fingers with infectious blood fails to facilitate infection. No documented case of HIv via fingering has ever been substantiated.

In order for HIv to infect, it requires two things. One - infectious fluid. Two - receptor cells in the uninfected. Your finger - actually your entire skin - provides an excellent barrier, and no receptor cells. The healing process (because you are going to mention biting your nails or hangnails) is close to instantaneous.

You simply cannot, and will not get HIV through fingering.

And if that's not enough to satisfy you, I submit that this forum is not equipped for the sort of help that you require. I sincerely wish you the very best.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I guess I might be looking for a little reassurance; however, I was wondering and after reading all of your replies countless times:

I don't even know if this woman that I fingered is HIV positive or not. Assuming she is not, which is most likely, then I have absolutely nothing to worry.

Now if I assume she is HIV Positive, there has Never been a documented case of fingering causing HIV, which again, should be making me feel as if I have nothing to worry about. All my worrying over bitten skin, chewed off skin, etc. is completely unfounded isn't it? I mean, I can't be the only person in the history of HIV to have fingered a woman on her period??? Right? I can't be the only person who has had a little bit of skin chewed off his finger...right? I'm not the only person in 25 years that has had a raw finger. I mean, wouldn't there have to be a lot of blood to make it theoretically possible??? (sorry I'm just trying to put into context everything you guys have been trying to say to me). So in all reality, if it's never happened, it would be like me worrying about getting my girlfriend pregnant through oral sex or something crazy like that...it's never happened?

I just don't want to waste $125.00 to get tested for something that you guys say that I don't even need to test for. I don't want to think about this all day worrying about something that you guys have told me repeatedly not to worry about. I guess I should be asking myself...why would these people lie to me? They spend countless hours helping thousands upon thousands of people and I've read tons of posts where you tell people that they actually had a risk...so why wouldn't you tell me if I had a risk?

Sorry, I'm just having such a difficult time with this...thanks again for all your help.

Your assessment is accurate. If fingering were an infection route, we'd tell you. It isn't.

I've been positive for nine years, not on meds. My partner and I have been together for seven of those years. He works in the building trade and his hands always have small cuts and abrasions on them. We have a full sex life and guess what, he is still hiv negative. We use condoms for intercourse, but that's it. He remains hiv negative and that isn't going to change and yes, I say that with complete confidence.

Use condoms for intercourse and avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I have decided to get tested this Wed. it will be exactly 6 weeks from my incident with this woman. Everyone keeps telling me that I was not @ risk; but, how can I not be @ risk when I fingered a woman on her period. I didn't see blood but I had an open cut around my fingernail. This is driving me crazy??? How accurate would my 6 week test be??? Please help?

<<Everyone keeps telling me that I was not @ risk; but, how can I not be @ risk when I fingered a woman on her period.>>

Because the science does not support this vector for transmission. Not in the lab, not in primate/simian work, not in human epidemiology, and lastly, not in the extensive serodiscordant couple studies.

You say you are going crazy? I submit that this is because your thoughts are irrational insofar as HIV is concerned. Everyone, including everyone on this site, has adamantly agreed that there was no risk. Yet you have decided that there is, and are proceeding accordingly.

Honestly, I am not at all sure what you expect from this thread or this site, since it is grounded in reality and your fears are not. I get that you reject our risk assessment. I understand that. But seeing as how that's what we offer here, I am at a loss to imagine what good coming back to this site is doing you.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I don't mean to make anyone upset. I'm just having a difficult time with this. Thank you & the rest of the experts on this site for all the advice. It is greatly appreciated. I never meant to upset or annoy you guys. Thanks for all the advice, I wish you all the best...

I have another quick question...I just received my 6 week test! It was negative. I've noticed on a couple of people's thread you have stated that since you have been here since 2001, you have never seen someone go from a 6 week negative to positive @ 12/13 weeks? Is that true? So would you say that since I was on the low-end of the risk factor, that chances are good that I Will continue to test negative? Or would this be conclusive for me? Thanks for your time & consideration.

You had no risk for infection. Therefore, it stands to reason that you are HIv negative

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I am extremely confused now....Cunnilingus is considered a "theoretical risk" even though it's happened before. It's also considered a risk because of menstrual blood; however, my case of fingering is NOT a risk, even though the girl was on her period? I don't understand.

If it's happened before, how is something considered theoretical. By definition, theoretical means in "theory". So am I at risk or not? I wasn't going to test again, I'm @ 10 weeks right now, do I need to test?

I just took the Home Access test. 10 weeks, it came back negative. I wasn't going to ask; however, I checked out the lessons for HIV Testing and it does not mention too much on the home access test. How accurate is the test? Thank you.

Ann has never seen it happen on this forum, and she's been here about two years more than I. I've been here for three, I think. Holy crap, has it been three?

Note to self: the yellowed post-it that simply states "procure a life" still has no check mark next to it. Just saying.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Why is it that threads titled "one quick question" always end up with a hundred posts?

You were not, are not being made fun of. I was making fun of MYSELF at having posted on this site for so long. Not you.

Sensitivity is a good thing, and a trait I encourage in others. However, assuming that any witty aside made is at YOUR expense is not the best possible manifestation of that trait.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I'm starting to think you're making fun of US. We've been telling you for months now that you didn't have a risk of infection through fingering, and now you're asking us, with a straight face, if we think your test results will change?

How can your test results change when you've never had a risk in the first place?

If you've read the Welcome thread, you will have read the following:

Quote

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I have some questions about testing. It has nothing to do with my risk. Purely educational since I've read different things about this test on this site. Rod has said, "Yes the home tests are reliable, they do give false positives some times."

That being said, this website says it's FDA approved, as well as the homeaccess website, says that it is 99.95% accurate. Home access claims that it is just as accurate as a normal ELISA. Really confused about testing now...

1. When is it 99.95% accurate, after 3 months or 6 months.

2. Do you recommend going to a clinic for the sake of the counseling or because the homeaccess test gives out false positives???

3. Once and for all, is the homeaccess test a reliable test after 12/13 weeks??? or is it not because it is a first generation test? Does it test for HIV 2 also?

I did go to the website and I found nothing stating that they give "false positives." I was just wondering whether these are reliable tests or not? Still didn't answer my question about when they are 99.95% accurate and I did check their website. This website does not post a lot of information either. Does anyone know???

I just have one quick question about kissing. Is it a risk for HIV infection. I made out with this girl for a good 15-20 minutes. Very Very Deep kissing. I am just wondering if anyone has ever transmitted HIV this way? Thank you for your time & response.

Thanks for the resonse. I just want to make sure though. When the experts on this site say that kissing is not a risk...I understand that close-mouth kissing is not a risk, it makes sense, there's no exchange of fluid. But, does that go the same for open-mouth deep kissing? That was my only risk? Just wondering cause I'm really worried. Just wondering if french-kissing for 15 minutes is a risk. Again, I know close-mouth kissing is not, just wondering about open-mouth. Don't mean to bother you guys, keeping everything in one thread.