Three kids, three boys, and I honestly hate parents who let their kids scream incessantly in public because they think that it's the right thing to do.

Pro tip: It's not.

You don't ignore a tantrum, you catch the child before he can get into tantrum mode and address it head on. Don't treat your child like a pet. You 'talk' to them, you cajole them, whatever they want, they're not going to get, but if they're good until they get home, there might be something in it for them.

Yes, it's bribery, but by the time they get home, they've completely forgotten about that little talk in the store.

If they don't take the bribe, then be fully prepared to vacate the store with the child.

I've never had to worry about such things because I never took my kids out without them having a nap and a snack first. It's called preparation and most parents don't get that aspect. Kids don't throw tantrums just because. They throw tantrums because you've had them up for hours, they're hungry and exhausted and you want to spend 20 minutes trying to decide which loaf of bread looks the freshest.

Your kid throwing a tantrum in public is not the kid's fault. It's YOURS.

Maybe they'll make nice rooms for people with no kids to go and sit in places they can be (relatively) sure they won't have to hear children crying? I dunno. The blog post seems to be responding to a petty asshole by being a sanctimonious asshole.

TalenLee:earthwirm: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

That's just a flat out lie. I get to have an opinion on anything. Now, the idea that a person doesn't get to express their opinion because you don't think it's justified or morally acceptable or whatever is fine, but I'm fairly sure that telling them their opinion is flat-out not allowed to exist is, at the very least, dickish.

It isn't about your right to have an express an opinion, it has to do with class. Children are a basic, fundamental, and generally harmless fact of life. They always will be. The only attitudes you change by sharing your anti-child views are in how the rest of the world perceives you, not children.

So keep it up. The "no kids in restaurants!" crowd is a good, simple way to determine if someone is a classless douche, or not.

I'm generally tolerant of kids in most places. Public parks, grocery stores, the bus, planes... whatever. I can tune them out.

However, I will not tolerate screeching children in the movie theater. That is the one place where without a shadow of a doubt, a person who opts to remain in their seat with a disruptive child is an inconsiderate asshole. There is absolutely no excuse, no justification for that.

You don't have to be a good singer to know when someone is bombing a song. Similarly, I don't have to be a parent to know when someone is bad at it. I find it weird how someone becomes a parent and suddenly they're grafted with all this knowledge the childless obviously could never know, right? All those parents that claim to be above opinions and criticism forget that everyone the biggest idiots seems to be able to keep their children alive and by virtue of the fact that we all figure out parenting as an instinct (or we'd die out), they aren't really much more knowledgeable than the rest of us.

If a child throws a tantrum in public, you just need to look up at the shiatty, effete parents. That all being said, the large majority of parents and children aren't the problem.

Huge huge difference between your toddler having a melt-down at the grocery store... I can feel sorry for that...It's another reaction when you bring your f*ck trophy on the plane, to the restaurant, movies, at the bar, coffee-shop, bus, DMV, post office, etc.. and don't even bring some crayons/games/snacks for the kid. wtf? Kids are pretty easy; just keep them entertained, fed, hydrated and it's good.

/changing that diaper on the cafe seat is horribly nasty too!//No, actually, I don't want to see little Johnny/Suzy doing their first show-tune rendition while I'm eating or flying.///really? you brought your kids to a R-rated movie?

earthwirm:Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

That's just a flat out lie. I get to have an opinion on anything. Now, the idea that a person doesn't get to express their opinion because you don't think it's justified or morally acceptable or whatever is fine, but I'm fairly sure that telling them their opinion is flat-out not allowed to exist is, at the very least, dickish.

I threw exactly one fit in public. My mom stopped what she was doing, bent me over her knee, spanked me, and then went on shopping. Everyone around me started laughing and clapping. I was mortified and clearly remember it even though I was just about four.

I grew up just fine. Embarrassment, shaming, and spanking are effective parenting techniques, but they have fallen "out" with new age parents. Now we have a generation of entitled little douchebags who can't handle rejection, think they are always special, and are mediocre. Yes, no spanking, time-outs, and bullshiat "achievment" awards have made our society so much better.

When my kids were at the age where they would do shiat like that in public, my wife or I would take them outside and wait for them to calm down before returning. Parents these days simply have no farking respect for the people around them. They feel if they have to listen to their spoiled brat throwing a fit, everyone else should have to as well.

If you're in the damn grocery store and your kid is throwing a fit, it's you job as a parent to leave, not drag him through the place kicking and screaming. Yes it's inconvenient. Yes it means your schedule is going to be thrown off. So what, dinner gets on the table late that night, that's life. The rest of the world should not have to put up with your brats poor behavior.

GORDON:TalenLee: earthwirm: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

That's just a flat out lie. I get to have an opinion on anything. Now, the idea that a person doesn't get to express their opinion because you don't think it's justified or morally acceptable or whatever is fine, but I'm fairly sure that telling them their opinion is flat-out not allowed to exist is, at the very least, dickish.

It isn't about your right to have an express an opinion, it has to do with class. Children are a basic, fundamental, and generally harmless fact of life. They always will be.

Exactly. And since we have little option but to endure and tolerate them, we have no real need to extend such niceties to their shiatty parents. In fact, we're doing society harm by not calling out shiatty parenting. It takes a village, my friend.

TalenLee:earthwirm: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

That's just a flat out lie. I get to have an opinion on anything. Now, the idea that a person doesn't get to express their opinion because you don't think it's justified or morally acceptable or whatever is fine, but I'm fairly sure that telling them their opinion is flat-out not allowed to exist is, at the very least, dickish.

No, it's called humanity. Instead of having a rude demeanor and making everyone days bad , you can choose to lighten the mood or help. Being a jack wagon doesn't and won't help.

I have a niece and nephew I take out sometimes and I've never had any problems with their throwing a tantrum or acting up. Take some parenting classes, get a nanny or go to the nearest PetSmart and buy a muzzle. Failing all of that, don't get all indignant when someone expresses annoyance at your shrieking spawn.No one should yell at you or anything but don't get all uppity if someone's natural reaction is to look annoyed in your direction.

Doc Daneeka:Infernalist: I love how parents have come to think that ignoring a temper tantrum is the proper course of action to take, ESPECIALLY in public.

It's really the only way to deal with tantrums.

If you give into the child's demands or fall all over yourself to placate him, the child just learns that throwing a tantrum is an effective way to get what they want, and will do it more often in the future. If you drop everything and run out of the store, it's the same deal - the child takes away the lesson that they are in control and can get you to stop and leave a place they don't want to be simply by throwing a tantrum. Threats don't work on a toddler - they're not capable of processing that kind of reasoning, especially when they are in that kind of emotional state.

The only thing to o, if you want to discourage tantrums from happening, is to tell you child calmly that the tantrum won't get them what they want, and then calmly, quickly, and efficiently finish your errand. The child will learn that the tantrum was not an effective way of commanding your attention and actions.

You're wrong. Kids aren't that smart. They're not throwing a tantrum so they can get what they want. They're throwing a fit because they've reached their limit on coping with denial. Those limits are usually low to begin with, but when a child is tired and hungry and just wants to go home, those limits are all but nonexistent.

Take any child in the temper tantrum range, keep them up for hours, no nap, no snack, and see how long they last before they lose their shiat. It's got NOTHING to do with bargaining with the parents. It's got everything to do with their lack of coping.

Learn to put your child down for a nap an hour before you need to leave for the store. Feed them some crackers on the way to the store or in the store. A rested child with a full belly is a happy child that doesn't freak out when you say 'no' to whatever it is that they want.

Wow, that sounds quite insane if meant wholeheartedly and not as a shortcut. I have heard "Your opinion about abortion is less valid because you've never experienced any of the related issues," which seems pretty reasonable to me.

You get to inflict your screaming brat on the rest of us and shove your work off on us because you have to stay home with your sick kid and in exchange we get to tell you what we think of you're annoying little brat.

I came from a large family. My mother makes fun of people who raised one kid and talks like they are an expert on raising children. There is nothing wrong with everyone having an opinion. I know many people who helped raise their siblings, but of course stupid parents then say they know nothing about raising kids because they have none of their own.

I was reading the blog thinking 'yeah ok, he's got a point - I still hate kids, but grocery shopping is a a no-go area if you want a kid free zone.... then I dcided to read the previous blog entry about evil atheists or some such shiate.

so - applying the same logic from that blog - the guys a complete, total, utter moron and all his opinions are worthless, therefore everyone should feel free to casually insult parents of screaming toddlers in supermarkets

Every jackass is an expert on parenting before they have any kids of their own. When they do, they discover that parenting is not as simple or as black-and-white as they thought. Moreover, they discover that their priority is always the safety, discipline, and well-being of their child, over the comfort, convenience, and opinions of random passersby.

Except discipline creates comfort and conveniences for a passerby. Lack of discipline fosters opinions in a passerby.

Don't want people to express their opinions about you being a shiaty parent, don't be a shiaty parent.

Contempt, no. They are wonderful people who have always been there for me. Much like the parents of my friends for them, my co-workers, myself for mine, etc. However, many people seem to think that parenting grants magic knowledge or that having (or not having) children affects the truth value of a person's statements, and that I find amusing.

I have no problem with kids having a meltdown (which happens, deal with it). I DO have a problem if the response isn't to remove the child from the area or at least minimize the issue as best someone can (taking the child to the bathroom on a plane, for example). If the general response from the parent is "Not this sh** again", I'm much less sympathetic.

Yes, kids should never be allowed out into the world to learn and grow.

When you teach them how to behave they are welcome to go out into the world to learn and grow. If you refuse to teach them discipline, keep them locked up at home. It will prepare them for a life they will most likely spend in jail.

Hey oblivious parents, if you don't want people telling you to shut your bratty kids up don't be shiatty parents. Or don't take your bratty kids out to restaurants but that also falls under the category of not being shiatty parents.

Mugato:I have a niece and nephew I take out sometimes and I've never had any problems with their throwing a tantrum or acting up. Take some parenting classes, get a nanny or go to the nearest PetSmart and buy a muzzle. Failing all of that, don't get all indignant when someone expresses annoyance at your shrieking spawn.No one should yell at you or anything but don't get all uppity if someone's natural reaction is to look annoyed in your direction.

I actually did something very similar when I had taken my oldest niece shopping when she was about 5. (She's now 36)...she started up, and I just mimicked everything she did, but more animated and louder. I'm sure the folks in Farm & Fleet got quite a show of my then young 20 something self jumping up and down, flapping my arms and whining about how I wanted a sparkle pony for my birthday and didn't get one.

Confusion gave way to giggles, then we were done. Took maybe 3 minutes.

The public temper tantrums aren't a problem because they will happen to most kids at some point. I just carry on with my business.

It really grinds my gears when it is the parents with <5 yr olds at the Dark Knight (or worse: "Ted" - that Mark Wahlberg movie with the talking teddy bear) matinee or the mommy club with infants at the Hobbit midnight premiere. Also the parents with their elementary schoolers at Wal-Mart at 11:30 on a school night. There are age-appropriate activities that set children up for success. When you become a parent (like we are) you give up your college-aged lifestyle as part of the trade-off.

Of course non-parents are allowed to have opinions on how to rear human mini-beasts.It's just that hvaing an opinoin and having a valid opinion is two different things.And having an opinion and loudly voicing that opinion is two different things.

See, if you think blue is a better color for a car than yellow, that's perfectly okay. Going up to every yellow-colored car you see and loudly proclaiming that they suck at owning cars is still stupid.

And, if you think that it sucks that your your car has four wheels and that it would be better if it had three that is perfectly within your right. You're wrong, but so are we all at some point or another. Not voicing your very very stupid opinion will help you convince others that you are not very very stupid. So please keep your mouth shut.

I just don't get it. How is this any different than anything else that's annoying in life and that you have to deal with when you go into public? How is it any different than that guy on his phone who bumps into you on the street? Or the dude who cut you off on the way to the store? Or the person in the store who's blocking exactly the item you need to purchase, and can't make up their mind about what they want? These are instances you come across with in your life as a human being. It's annoying and frustrating, but honestly there's no reason to be a complete dick over it. Yeah i have my opinions about these people like anyone else, but a little patience goes a long way. If you feel the need to publicly shame someone, insult someone, or directly shove you're opinion down their throat, you're an asshole first and foremost.

Is it really that difficult to understand that some kids are just a pain in the ass sometimes? That not every instance of life can be completely under your control? I don't think you need to have children to be able to empathize with the struggles it presents. If the kid is whining, crying, and carrying on for an extended period of time and the parent refuses to do anything, I can see that as a reason to be upset. But i still don't think its appropriate for you to confront that person with your narrow opinion. You have no idea what any stranger is currently going through in their life, be it that day, week or year. Get over yourself. It really is a very minor inconvenience.

MycroftHolmes:Albinoman: MycroftHolmes: Albinoman: You don't have to be a good singer to know when someone is bombing a song. Similarly, I don't have to be a parent to know when someone is bad at it. I find it weird how someone becomes a parent and suddenly they're grafted with all this knowledge the childless obviously could never know, right? All those parents that claim to be above opinions and criticism forget that everyone the biggest idiots seems to be able to keep their children alive and by virtue of the fact that we all figure out parenting as an instinct (or we'd die out), they aren't really much more knowledgeable than the rest of us.

If a child throws a tantrum in public, you just need to look up at the shiatty, effete parents. That all being said, the large majority of parents and children aren't the problem.

A wise man knows how much he doesn't know. An idiot is confident in his lack of knowledge. I will let you guess which one you are.

Dated a woman for a long time with 4 kids (they were from 10 months to 9 years when we started). They'd listen to me and not her, probably had a lot to do with me actually playing with them and treating them like people instead of just screaming at them like she did. Never had to raise my voice, never touched them. I liked being their dad a lot more than being her boyfriend. While I certainly didn't get the whole parenting experience, I found it really is just an extension of your own personality. shiatty people make shiatty parents. Admittedly, being a patient and easy going really helps too.

So, since you made that statement while knowing nothing about me, which one does that make you?

Very nice. You counter your original argument 'I don't have to be a parent to know a bad one' with a litany of your qualifications as a parent. You realize that you pretty much undermined your own argument.

Also, as an uncle and occasional babysitter of friends kids, my experience indicates that there is a world of difference between having to parent kids full time, and parent them only for small sprints in usually controlled circumstances.And I made no statement about you. Just made a declarative statement that I will stand by. Sensitive much?

No, not at all. You made that statement after copying my post, who else would it be to? Your statement was to imply my lack of understanding of what it's like to be a parent. I've been there, she's now long gone and I'm still childless. I countered by basically saying you know nothing about me (like you thought I did about parenting), yet felt "confident" in saying I'm an idiot. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy.

You know what? Fark you you sanctimonious parents. The author is justifying the parent letting the child be a shrieking nuisance because they "didn't have time" to deal with the child because it was "inconvenient." Tough shiat. I'm not complaining about your parenting because your child is acting out (yes, I know children do that) but because you are being selfish and inconsiderate by not dealing with it appropriately and instead making the unilateral choice to make your problem my problem. Is it a bigger inconvenience for you to have to stop your shopping and sit in your car with your kid than it is for me to listen to screaming for 40 seconds? Yes, but it's also not my child and I'm not required to put up with its misbehavior.

And if you are a parent who is not doing something to control a tantruming child in a grocery store, you're damn right I'll have an opinion. Same as I have an opinion about people who sneeze on the produce or haven't showered in days.Stop trying to blame people for being annoyed at you for not doing something about that problem that you brought in with you.

MycroftHolmes:Albinoman: You don't have to be a good singer to know when someone is bombing a song. Similarly, I don't have to be a parent to know when someone is bad at it. I find it weird how someone becomes a parent and suddenly they're grafted with all this knowledge the childless obviously could never know, right? All those parents that claim to be above opinions and criticism forget that everyone the biggest idiots seems to be able to keep their children alive and by virtue of the fact that we all figure out parenting as an instinct (or we'd die out), they aren't really much more knowledgeable than the rest of us.

If a child throws a tantrum in public, you just need to look up at the shiatty, effete parents. That all being said, the large majority of parents and children aren't the problem.

A wise man knows how much he doesn't know. An idiot is confident in his lack of knowledge. I will let you guess which one you are.

Dated a woman for a long time with 4 kids (they were from 10 months to 9 years when we started). They'd listen to me and not her, probably had a lot to do with me actually playing with them and treating them like people instead of just screaming at them like she did. Never had to raise my voice, never touched them. I liked being their dad a lot more than being her boyfriend. While I certainly didn't get the whole parenting experience, I found it really is just an extension of your own personality. shiatty people make shiatty parents. Admittedly, being a patient and easy going really helps too.

So, since you made that statement while knowing nothing about me, which one does that make you?

Some parents have very well behaved children that do not annoy other adults when in public. If this does not describe your children and you persist in taking them out in public, you are bad and you should feel bad.

I have the privilege of being able to say "No, I don't have kids. But I've worked with abused and behaviorally challenged kids for the last 5 years. The kind of kids of you have to restrain and seclude, then play legos with 30 minutes later. I know a bit."

Contempt, no. They are wonderful people who have always been there for me. Much like the parents of my friends for them, my co-workers, myself for mine, etc. However, many people seem to think that parenting grants magic knowledge or that having (or not having) children affects the truth value of a person's statements, and that I find amusing.

I think you are confusing experience with "magical knowledge". Would you agree that for instance a zoo keeper making statements regarding the care and feeding of zoo animals opinion is more valid on that subject than that of someone who has never had even a pet?

Zookeepers are professionals who have had professional training in the care of animals. Idiot parents, not so much.

You know what, that blog post did raise a good point. I had blindly assumed parents were being selfish dicks when they were ignoring their kids when they could just do something to make the infant shut up. Now I realise it's not that simple, because I never thought about it before.

However please, for the love of god, don't take your kids on holiday by air if they cannot behave. If they're not old enough to not scream then don't bring them on the plane. Or at least beg with us for the airlines to make childless flights. Meet us halfway here. What harm does childless flights do you? None, you get the same plane to get where you're going, and I probably have to pay extra to have a stress free flight. Everyone is happy.

The last 2 flights out of the country I've been on I've been set in front of screaming children. I can't take it. Hours and hours of screaming. If I was American it might be easier because I could drive everywhere, but you can't always drive around Europe, especially when going to island destinations.

I now know why the kids keep screaming, and I can appreciate what you're trying to do, but help us all out here and try to not subject everyone to it in enclosed spaces. Please. You must be able to remember, from your pre-parent days, how angry hearing another persons child scream for an hour can make you. If you hadn't experienced that before becoming a parent then you were probably quite lucky. You put headphones on but that doesn't drown it out, and then for good measure he starts kicking the back of your seat. I could weep with exasperation just remembering it.

What about if we all make an agreement that until childless flights are a thing that you will all do your best to get on flights between 11am and 5pm. Everything out of those hours we can call adult friendly. Is that a fair compromise? I just want to find a solution to our respective problems. I know we can do it. If there's one think Fark is good for it's rational, and well tempered conversation leading to fruitful debate where all parties leave amicably.

Also, everyone else, don't clap and cheer when the plane lands. Who does that? I mean really. It's just silly.

Mr. Coffee Nerves:I think the good parents hate the "Don't you dare give me a dirty look because I'm letting my five-year-old and my three-year-old chug Mountain Dew and play 'Scream Tag' in the aisles at this 10PM showing of 'I Spit On Your Grave'"-type parents more than the non-parents hate them.

Grocery stores are pretty bad places to let a kid rampage through, actually. Lotta breakable crap, fast moving carts to run into, employees on ladders or carrying boxes. Just take em outside for a sec, hell, even the bathroom.

Spare me. You could be on the bus with a mom on her way to the doctor with a child that has an earache, or fell down getting on and barked a shin and is crying about it and you'd be right there with the other delicate flowers in this thread telling her she's a bad mother and should get off the bus until her "fark trophy" calms down, right?

I swear, every one of these threads is like a catalog of entitled snowflakes. Bunch of candy-asses, I can't believe you can possibly function in the real world.

What the fark do you people do when instead of having an encounter with a child, you run into an adult who is actually an asshole? If you can't handle a child getting worked up, i can't imagine you're well-prepared for the harsh realities of life.

Maybe you should just stay home until you're better prepared to deal with people you might encounter as soon as you leave.

max_pooper:Hey oblivious parents, if you don't want people telling you to shut your bratty kids up don't be shiatty parents. Or don't take your bratty kids out to restaurants but that also falls under the category of not being shiatty parents.

I guess don't be shiatty parents is the central theme to my rant.

Yes, this too! It really cracks me up when I'm out drinking, partying, and being raunchy in Vegas at 2am... but I get dirty looks from the parents rolling their tired/hungry/cranky children around in the middle of the night. I chose not to have kids, so I can choose when/where/what I want to do in the middle of the night.You chose to create a f*ck trophy; so take care of it! That means reasonable bed times, more sober living; and going to Disney instead of Vegas.

I think the good parents hate the "Don't you dare give me a dirty look because I'm letting my five-year-old and my three-year-old chug Mountain Dew and play 'Scream Tag' in the aisles at this 10PM showing of 'I Spit On Your Grave'"-type parents more than the non-parents hate them.

I found it odd that the article (and those commenting) all seem to take it as given that children have 'meltdowns' and tantrums in public. This most certainly hasn't been my experience. I didn't see that behavior with my nieces and nephews, the children of my friends or even my own daughter.

No so CSB:

I do remember picking my daughter up from her mother when she was 3. Her mom told me that she had been having trouble all week with her throwing tantrums - throw herself on the floor, kick and scream until she gets her way. Having never seen any such behavior from my kid, I just nodded along and wondered when that started and why.

So my daughter and I stop at the grocery store on the way home and things are going well. She wants me to buy something (can't remember what) and the answer is no. And now I get to see the tantrum. Her face turns red, starts to cry/scream and goes to throw herself on the floor. I caught her by the arm, bent down nose to nose and growled "There will be none of that!". Tantrum over and it was the last time I ever saw that behavior from her.

/CSB

My two cents on parenting - be consistent. Never let them manipulate you, blackmail you, embarrass you or do anything else that makes you change the rules. I don't have a tenth of the problems with my daughter that her mother has and I honestly think it is because she knows the expectations are consistent and punishment will be swift and sure.

Falstaff:As a new father of twin girls, feel free to express any opinion you want. I may laugh, I may tell you off. Either way, we'll be good.

Do NOT, however, just walk up and start rubbing their cheek or stroking their hair. I just about knocked a woman out last night for doing that. Didn't say two words to me, just walks up and starts rubbing my youngest's head. Creepy as hell.

Some folks, (mostly old women) think they have a god-given right to touch whomever they want with their nasty buzzard claws.

robohobo:Also, we're all forcefully made to contribute monetarily to children that aren't ours. So fark off, parents. YOU farking made the choice to make more people. In most cases, people you cannot afford.

The My Little Pony Killer:wickedragon: Of course non-parents are allowed to have opinions on how to rear human mini-beasts.It's just that hvaing an opinoin and having a valid opinion is two different things.And having an opinion and loudly voicing that opinion is two different things.

See, if you think blue is a better color for a car than yellow, that's perfectly okay. Going up to every yellow-colored car you see and loudly proclaiming that they suck at owning cars is still stupid.

And, if you think that it sucks that your your car has four wheels and that it would be better if it had three that is perfectly within your right. You're wrong, but so are we all at some point or another. Not voicing your very very stupid opinion will help you convince others that you are not very very stupid. So please keep your mouth shut.

To paraphrase (and translate) Håvamål:

It's better to keep your mouth shutAnd let people belive you a foolthan to open your mouthand remove all doubt.

PS! in old norse it rhymes and is thus more awsome

We'll keep our mouths shut when you show us that you're trying to take care of your hollering offspring. Until then, guess you'll have to deal with the glares and murmurings.

I've never let my children go on a rampage without sitting them down and talking sternly to them, or comforting them, picking them up or similar. I say "I'm sorry" if they seem to be bothering someone. I've never taken a child to a grown-up movie theater or let them run up and down the isle on an airplane. I've never let them destroy anything in public and then pretend like they didn't do it. I don't have a huge problem with my kids throwing temper tantrums, but as the youngest is two and the oldest is three it is a thing that happens.

Now please don't act like I should throw away everything and leave the store because my two year old has a cry for a couple of minutes, or leave the bus because one of them has an off day. I'm doing my best, I care, and I will continue to do so until I die.I can make the tantrums go away. It almost never takes more than a couple of minutes. But I can't make them not happen, because nobody can.

When I was a toddler and had a meltdown, my mother abandoned the cart, took me home, and didn't take me anywhere. For months. She didn't go shopping until dad was home, and would leave me with him. And would rub it in that she was leaving and I wasn't allowed to go because I couldn't behave in public.

bborchar:Okay, oh childless peoplewith all of your disposable income, let us mere peasant parents know exactly which places we are allowed to bring our children so as not to intrude upon your precious world of peace and quiet. Because so far, I've noticed that I'm not allowed to take my children:

1. On any form of public transportation you might be riding2. In any restaurant you eat at3. To sporting events of any kind4. Down a sidewalk where you might be walking5. To any entertainment venue which you might be at6. To any store in which you might be shopping

Now, tell me...who's the special snowflake?

If you're not going to pay attention to what's already been said then you'll have to sit at the kiddie table.

Okay, oh childless peoplewith all of your disposable income, let us mere peasant parents know exactly which places we are allowed to bring our children so as not to intrude upon your precious world of peace and quiet. Because so far, I've noticed that I'm not allowed to take my children:

1. On any form of public transportation you might be riding2. In any restaurant you eat at3. To sporting events of any kind4. Down a sidewalk where you might be walking5. To any entertainment venue which you might be at6. To any store in which you might be shopping

Kahabut:GORDON: It isn't about your right to have an express an opinion, it has to do with class. Children are a basic, fundamental, and generally harmless fact of life. They always will be. The only attitudes you change by sharing your anti-child views are in how the rest of the world perceives you, not children.

So keep it up. The "no kids in restaurants!" crowd is a good, simple way to determine if someone is a classless douche, or not.

Once, a long time ago in a far away place, classy people didn't bring their children to adult restaurants. They also don't use words like douche on a regular basis.

From this, we can know two things. 1) You aren't classy. 2) You aren't qualified to tell anyone else what classy is.

Cold_Sassy:My Mom had 4 children and, back in the day, you were still permitted to spank your child and that took care of most behavioral issues. I honestly can't remember me or any of my 3 brothers ever throwing a fit. I'm sure we must have, but you could count on old Mom lowering the boom and that stemmed most bad behavior.

Too bad some stupid jerkoffs had to make that a crime.

THIS.

hailin:I threw exactly one fit in public. My mom stopped what she was doing, bent me over her knee, spanked me, and then went on shopping. Everyone around me started laughing and clapping. I was mortified and clearly remember it even though I was just about four.

I grew up just fine. Embarrassment, shaming, and spanking are effective parenting techniques, but they have fallen "out" with new age parents. Now we have a generation of entitled little douchebags who can't handle rejection, think they are always special, and are mediocre. Yes, no spanking, time-outs, and bullshiat "achievment" awards have made our society so much better.

PLUS THIS!

Missicat:Cold_Sassy: My Mom had 4 children and, back in the day, you were still permitted to spank your child and that took care of most behavioral issues. I honestly can't remember me or any of my 3 brothers ever throwing a fit. I'm sure we must have, but you could count on old Mom lowering the boom and that stemmed most bad behavior.

Too bad some stupid jerkoffs had to make that a crime.

Same here. Except I was one of seven. Yes, seven. And my mom does wonder why parents can't control their kids. If we went out to a restaurant as a family, and one of us acted up...guess who had to stay home the next time with a babysitter. We had these things called "consequences" when we misbehaved.

PLUS THIS!

The math the article writer refers to is not that hard, he's just stupid.

Doc Daneeka:The My Little Pony Killer: The non-parent is right. If your child is throwing a major tantrum in public, and you keep on like nothing is happening, you are a BAD PARENT. GOOD PARENTS remove the child from the situation. Yes, it's inconvenient for you, the parent, but that's what parenting is. It's inconvenient for you, but worth it.

So take care of your damn kids and you won't have to worry about what you assume to be non-parents talking shiat about you.

If the child is throwing a tantrum in a public place because they don't want to be there, then dropping everything and leaving accomplishes the following:

1) First, and foremost, it teaches the child that throwing a tantrum WORKED, that throwing a tantrum is an effective way to get what they want,2) It shows the child that they can control their parents behavior simply by threatening to embarrass them in front of strangers,3) In light of that, it rewards the tantrum and makes them more likely to occur in the future.

This is bad parenting. It may be more comforting to random passersby, but it teaches the wrong lesson to the kid. The lesson they need to learn is that the parents control the agenda, and can't be compelled to stop everything and leave simply because the child doesn't want to be there. They need to learn that the tantrum is ineffective.

Nope. Nope. Nope. It only works that way for lame parents.

A REAL parent takes the kid outside and says "Go ahead. Have your tantrum. I'll wait. But when you're done we are going back inside." Eventually he will run out of steam. Tantrums are hard work. And it teaches them that it won't get them home any faster.

Standing in the parking lot has the side benefit of feeling like punishment. Call their bluff.

I actually saw a woman meltdown over kids acting up a few months ago. We were at a family restaurant eating lunch, and about 4 couples were eating at one table, while all their children were seated at another table. The kids were probably age 3 to 8, and they were acting like kids that age do; being noisy, getting up and talking to each other, and generally creating a lot of racket. The parents were engrossed in their own conversations, and only rarely did any of them say anything to the kids to calm down. A middle aged woman, sitting alone at a table near the kids, finally couldn't stand it any more, stood up and yelled "will all you kids sit down and behave!".

The restaurant fell dead silent for a moment, including the kids. The parents began actually trying to keep the kids quieter, and the restaurant staff offered to move the woman further away from the kid table. Our server just said "thank god I'm not taking care of those tables myself" the next time she came by.

This thread certainly establishes one thing, which is that there's no easier way to troll a parent than by complaining about the way kids behave.

Personally, I'd prefer if the vociferous "child haters" would chill out and try to be less trolltastic, because I'd enjoy a reasonable discussion about ways parents and non-parents can coexist peacefully, but I know better than to try that on Fark. Nevertheless, I will offer the following notes to parents:

Children's cries and screams *are* in fact pretty much impossible to ignore for biological reasons. In fact, smoke alarms are set at the crying-baby frequency specifically because of that. Parents eventually learn to tune out that kind of noise somehow, but those of us who have little or no exposure to kids don't have that ability.

So the tantrum you're tuning out because you know you can't stop it really *is* a very big deal to the non-parents around you. It's causing an instinctive stress response that we have no way to address. It's inevitable that we'll get frustrated, and often angry. Even if we know logically that sometimes kids are just like that, even if we sympathize, even if you're obviously doing your best to deal with a difficult situation, we can't help being upset by the noise because we're genetically hardwired to react. We *can*, and should, do our best to behave like reasonable adults, but it's just as understandable that some people find that difficult as that sometimes kids scream.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for most parents. While popping out a baby is nothing of particular note, I find it inexplicable and astonishing that most people manage to rise to the occasion and make even the most basic of sacrifices necessary to care for a child. I've always had cats, and it's a good thing they're so self-sufficient, because I'm barely competent to take care of them. Or myself, for that matter. Seriously, most of y'all are farking heroes as far as I'm concerned.

Funny story: The other day my fiancé and I were in a grocery store when a little girl (maybe 2-3 years old) yelled "HI," ran up behind me, and grabbed my ass with both hands. The mother's immediate response was to apologize profusely (followed by a stern "Get back here! You do NOT do that!" to the child).

I thought it was hilarious anyway -- given the choice between a screaming child and an ass-grabbing one, I'll take the ass-grabbing every time -- but I appreciated the mother's apology because it was an acknowledgement that it was not OK for her kid to grab my ass, and that her child's actions were her responsibility. She told her older son to take the little girl's hand and led them away, with the girl still waving gaily back at me.

Honestly, parents, an apology is the least you can do. If you don't think you should have to adhere to the most basic rules of etiquette because you think everyone should "just deal with it" when your kids act up, you are EXACTLY the parents people in this thread are complaining about it, and down the road your kids will also be those parents, because chances are pretty good you won't bother to teach them any manners either.

Also, the vociferous child-haters need to chill the fark out. I don't have/want kids and I strongly dislike being around them myself, but if you're looking for excuses to be annoyed by pretty much anything, children included, you will certainly find plenty of them. If you save your butthurt for times when children are genuinely causing a problem for you instead of just pissing and moaning every time you're forced to notice a child's existence, your blood pressure is going to go way down and everyone will be much happier.

The My Little Pony Killer:The non-parent is right. If your child is throwing a major tantrum in public, and you keep on like nothing is happening, you are a BAD PARENT. GOOD PARENTS remove the child from the situation. Yes, it's inconvenient for you, the parent, but that's what parenting is. It's inconvenient for you, but worth it.

So take care of your damn kids and you won't have to worry about what you assume to be non-parents talking shiat about you.

I'd rather be thought of as a bad parent than be a judgmental prick who automatically can determine what someone should do in 100% of situations just by looking at them.

I have an autistic preschooler, so meltdowns are more common than I'd like. But that's why I almost always bring FARKING backup! If he can't get it together, we can remove him and still finish shopping, without asking others to listen. But you've got to give the kid a chance to pull themselves together. If a kid is never given the chance to get it right, they're not going to learn. When I set my son up to succeed, he gains self confidence and initiates the behavior.

Parenting in public is very easy if you make the slightest effort. Make sure the kid is well napped, and be consistent with your expectations, and chat with them as you shop. They will then never act up in public. It worked for me.

That being said, it's entirely pointless for anyone to point out bad parenting publicly. They either get insulted, or they just don't care.

Contempt, no. They are wonderful people who have always been there for me. Much like the parents of my friends for them, my co-workers, myself for mine, etc. However, many people seem to think that parenting grants magic knowledge or that having (or not having) children affects the truth value of a person's statements, and that I find amusing.

I think you are confusing experience with "magical knowledge". Would you agree that for instance a zoo keeper making statements regarding the care and feeding of zoo animals opinion is more valid on that subject than that of someone who has never had even a pet?

Zookeepers are professionals who have had professional training in the care of animals. Idiot parents, not so much.

My favorite line in the film "Parenthood" (1989):(Keanu Reeves) Tod: "You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father. "

i think we can all agree that even worse than screeching brats are entitled mommies who won't angle their double buggy 1 degree off the middle oof the pavement as you approach in the opposite direction because THEY'RE A PARENT AND THEREFORE THE MOST SPECIAL PEOPLE IN THE UNIVERSE

also wtf is up with this font?

You are projecting so hard if we shoved a DVD in your ass we could watch it from the moon:"Look at that SELF-CENTERED biatch, why should I move for her pushing a 40 pound stroller with a baby in it?!? Fark you!!!"

as a parent with a kid who still rides a stroller, I actually side with her. I don't propose people should move off the sidewalk or anything, but at the very least move to one g-damn edge of the sidewalk to let other people past. Add to that the fact that people are getting huge double-wide jogging strollers (even though the most obviously, don't ever go out for runs) and then blocking sidewalks with them, it's rather annoying, particularly in parts of town with crowded sidewalks. The worst is when the take the huge strollers into some tiny mom-and-pop store somewhere and create chaos because they don't fit and are in everybody's way. Take the kid out, carry them, leave the stroller outside. If your kid is sleeping, too bad, stay outside with them and the stroller while your wife checks out the store. if there's something worth seeing, she can come take your place while you go in and see stuff.

This isn't asking much, just a general sense of consideration for other people's times and day. Yes, you have a child, yes, having a child is inconvenient and hard work. But no, it doesn't mean you get to ignore the needs of others. Other people use the sidewalk, move your sport utility stroller off the middle, and other people like to shop in little shops in tourist areas, keep your stroller outside and carry the kid in. How do I know this isn't asking much? Because I do this myself, and have always done it.

That being said, I do very much welcome the occasional stranger that will hold a door open while I'm trying to open a door and push a stroller through. Or people who otherwise try to make my life a bit easier when my arms are full and I am pushing a stroller as well.

Mugato:I have a niece and nephew I take out sometimes and I've never had any problems with their throwing a tantrum or acting up. Take some parenting classes, get a nanny or go to the nearest PetSmart and buy a muzzle. Failing all of that, don't get all indignant when someone expresses annoyance at your shrieking spawn.No one should yell at you or anything but don't get all uppity if someone's natural reaction is to look annoyed in your direction.

Yeah, that's just like being a parent when you get to give them back once they get tired and cranky. If you really haven't had a problem, then chances are mom or dad was the one who had to handle the tantrums or acting up and used that to get them straightened out before you got them. That's kudos to them, not you.

EVERY parent has at least one or two meltdowns in a public place. EVERY parent. You might not have any beyond that, and the one you have may or may not be short (no guarantees on the first one) depending upon how you handled that teachable moment as a parent, but there's ALWAYS the first time. There is no exception to that rule because every child has to learn at some point that they can't have everything they want, and every child has to learn that Mommy and Daddy don't give in to their demands just because there are other people around. A fully functioning child does not exist that hasn't tried it. If you teach your child that he or she can have their way by acting like a tool, then you are a bad parent, and you're encouraging them to act like a tool every time you go out rather than a few times.

Anyone who has ever had a child and says that they've never had a problem is either oblivious (and a real bad parent/caretaker) or lying.

ReapTheChaos:When my kids were at the age where they would do shiat like that in public, my wife or I would take them outside and wait for them to calm down before returning. Parents these days simply have no farking respect for the people around them. They feel if they have to listen to their spoiled brat throwing a fit, everyone else should have to as well.

If you're in the damn grocery store and your kid is throwing a fit, it's you job as a parent to leave, not drag him through the place kicking and screaming. Yes it's inconvenient. Yes it means your schedule is going to be thrown off. So what, dinner gets on the table late that night, that's life. The rest of the world should not have to put up with your brats poor behavior.

This is exactly what I did when my two kids were toddlers. They are my choice, they are my responsibility, including teaching them civility. And guess what, Precious Snowflake Producers, three year-olds CAN learn this. It is not easy. It requires discipline and planning. You must allow yourself extra time to do everything. You sacrifice some things because you know you will not have the time/space to deal with a melt-down. You get a babysitter because Little Mackenzy doesn't need to go see the Matisse exhibit (plus it'll bore the shiat out of him). Buy him the poster at the museum gift shop and hang it in his room.

Take 'em out of where they're making a scene, take them to a safe place outside the store, out of the flow of people, and say, "OK, go ahead, make your scene now, I'll wait."

They'll look up at you with a "fark you" expression and say, "no." Then you go back to your business and when they start to fuss you say, "Do you need to go outside?" Guaran-damn-tee you they tighten that shiat right up.

i think we can all agree that even worse than screeching brats are entitled mommies who won't angle their double buggy 1 degree off the middle oof the pavement as you approach in the opposite direction because THEY'RE A PARENT AND THEREFORE THE MOST SPECIAL PEOPLE IN THE UNIVERSE

togaman2k:The public temper tantrums aren't a problem because they will happen to most kids at some point. I just carry on with my business.

It really grinds my gears when it is the parents with <5 yr olds at the Dark Knight

This is where I think non-parents - along with everyone else - really do have a solid point. Try taking that up a level of irritation when you're a parent with a child the same age - a parent that never takes their kids to the movies with them because they know how rude it is, so don't really get out except once in a long while ... and then you do get that night out with your spouse. So, you've gotten the babysitter, made plans, and now you are about to watch a movie in peace and quiet without the kids ... and then some asshole comes in with a kid that talks a cries through the whole goddamn thing.

Satan's Bunny Slippers:I agree with all the above. Again as I've said, I don't have kids of my own, BUT the last damn place I expect peace is the grocery store. What annoys me most? It's a tossup between cows who park their cart in the middle of the aisle and wander up and down, or the other idiot at the deli who wants a taste of everything before deciding on their 1/4 lb of plain turkey. Seriously? You've never tasted ham before? This isn't a lunch counter, GTFO.

Small kids are the LEAST of any issue I may have with the grocery store. Teens however....well we can all agree that teens are a species unto themselves, and convention does not apply. :)

However, I do have an issue with those godawfully huge "car karts ...

I still hate the ones that are low to the ground and always avoid them, even with the protests of my kid...they're just too cumbersome and I like to be out of the way in the store. My primary grocery has these car carts where the upper *back* part of the cart (the part where the push handle is located) is a car with two steering wheels. They're still a little bigger than the normal cart but their easier to keep out of the way.

But yeah, I do most of the grocery shopping and the biggest problem in the store is other people and not kids. Hell, the worst "kid" incident are parents who bring several 6-9 year olds and let them run about and that's not *near* as bad as many people in the store. People who block aisles just piss me off to no end. It takes minimal effort to keep your damn cart off to the side or out of the way. I understand that at times someone may have their cart right in front of what I need and that's not a big deal. But dead stopping your shiat right next to a aisle display or another person with five people navigating up the aisle?....push your shiat to the side and walk the five farking feet between your cart and what you need.

Actually, it doesn't really bother me unless they do nothing about it or look at you and laugh like, "Isn't my baby adorable? LOVE HIM!". No, he isn't and I don't.

And as someone posted above, it is vaguely annoying when I have to cover for everyone in the office with some kid related thing they have to get to. Obviously if the kid has a doctor's appointment, go, of course. I'm an asshole but I'm not a farking asshole. But every Friday is a half day with these people for their kids going to practice various things. I love my job so I don't care if I have to cover for them but it's the principle. If I asked for an hour off to catch a flight to Vegas I'd be lynched.

lostcat:Standing, her head came up to about the same height as my head. But behind us was an older couple. The woman kept sucking her teeth in annoyance and muttering, 'sit down,' in that cowardly level of voice between actually saying it and keeping it to yourself.

All I can say about that woman is, 'what an asshole.'

Perhaps she was an asshole, and perhaps she was concerned for the safety of your unrestrained child in the case of turbulence.

I do find it amusing that you call her using her voice cowardly, but you didn't turn around to say anything yourself.

You feel justified because, well, it's your story. That's how it happens. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's not another side and that it's not just as justified.

TalenLee:earthwirm: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

That's just a flat out lie. I get to have an opinion on anything. Now, the idea that a person doesn't get to express their opinion because you don't think it's justified or morally acceptable or whatever is fine, but I'm fairly sure that telling them their opinion is flat-out not allowed to exist is, at the very least, dickish.

earthwirm:TalenLee: earthwirm: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

That's just a flat out lie. I get to have an opinion on anything. Now, the idea that a person doesn't get to express their opinion because you don't think it's justified or morally acceptable or whatever is fine, but I'm fairly sure that telling them their opinion is flat-out not allowed to exist is, at the very least, dickish.

No, it's called humanity. Instead of having a rude demeanor and making everyone days bad , you can choose to lighten the mood or help. Being a jack wagon doesn't and won't help.

Cold_Sassy:My Mom had 4 children and, back in the day, you were still permitted to spank your child and that took care of most behavioral issues. I honestly can't remember me or any of my 3 brothers ever throwing a fit. I'm sure we must have, but you could count on old Mom lowering the boom and that stemmed most bad behavior.

Too bad some stupid jerkoffs had to make that a crime.

Same here. Except I was one of seven. Yes, seven. And my mom does wonder why parents can't control their kids. If we went out to a restaurant as a family, and one of us acted up...guess who had to stay home the next time with a babysitter. We had these things called "consequences" when we misbehaved.

MycroftHolmes:Albinoman: MycroftHolmes: Oh, it was a declarative statement. I set forth two objective conditions, and allowed you to pick which one applied.I just chose not to go down the rabbit hole of trying to argue semantics with you when there were more amusing lines of argument.

So, let me see if I can get this straight-your original statement was that you don't need to be a parent to see bad parenting, when challenged you acknowledged that you essentially were a parent, then basically back up your argument by saying that when you were a parent, you didn't really now how to do it, but were able to do it based on programming.

So, your current contention is that parenting is innate and instinctive, and that you do not ever learn anything about parenting based on experience. So, let me ask you, in your time as a parent, did you learn anything about how to deal with the kids, did you alter the way you interacted with them? Did you learn what worked and what didn't based on trial and error, or did you, from day one, automatically know how to handle them?

Come on, it's not like you replied to me to imply that I was wise. I just responded to what you were trying to actually say. Yes, to the second paragraph. I did say "mostly programmed" for a reason. But what you learn isn't about raising the child but more of how to handle yourself. There's a lot of patience and controlling yourself involved. How children behave is mostly a result of how they treat them. If a parent is indignant and uncaring, would you expect something else from the kid.

Got it. So, in your experience as a parent, learning how to manage your emotions to communicate and emote effectively is a learned behavior. In what way is this not 'parenting'?

Cause it's already part of your personality or it isn't, it's not learned. That's why some people are bad parents. They aren't bad parents, they're bad people.

Mr. Coffee Nerves:I think the good parents hate the "Don't you dare give me a dirty look because I'm letting my five-year-old and my three-year-old chug Mountain Dew and play 'Scream Tag' in the aisles at this 10PM showing of 'I Spit On Your Grave'"-type parents more than the non-parents hate them.

Yes, I get pissed off at parents who are shiatty, not their kids. Yesterday I encountered a woman telling her kid, who couldn't have been more than three, to "shut up" in a really mean way. And the kid wasn't even being bad! He was whining a bit because he wanted a little attention from his mom. You can discipline your kids, be firm, be stern if that's the right approach, but to just be rude and nasty to a very young child like that earns you the shiatty parent award. Other ways to earn the award include refusing to discipline and being inconsiderate of other people who have to be exposed to your child's behavior.

My mother works at a public library and there are a lot of parents who treat the place like a daycare, letting their kids run wild and unsupervised, making a mess and destroying books, while the parent plops their lazy ass at a computer and does Facebook for a couple of hours. Yes, I try my very best to teach my kids not to be brats and be responsible for their actions, and I get very mad at these parents. Not the kids, the awful parents.

That being said, I am not going to get all bent out of shape when a kid acts up and a parent is having a hard time but doing the best they can. Sometimes it's easy to get overwhelmed. Not every kid is going to respond perfectly to your parenting technique and they can be a challenge. One of my kids is much more compliant and the other one is very strong willed. I have to discipline them differently. But whatever type of kid you have, I think instilling a sense of respect and consideration for others goes a long way toward curtailing bad behavior.

As for people who apparently hate all children no matter what, I feel sorry for them, I guess. They seem very sour, like those grumpy old people who chase you off their lawn.

HEY EVERYONE, Freudian Slipknot just found an article in a medical journal about parents being dumbasses. This means that all parents are stupid, FS is an expert on child rearing, and all of your arguments are invalid.

// Oh bless you kind sir! Bless your little heart!

I've been assured that these folks know more about child rearing than anyone who has not themselves had a child and are therefore beyond reproach.

/didn't start this argument//just pointing out the HUGE flaw in the logic///bad parents are easy to recognize, even to the childless

RumsfeldsReplacement:I do feel like I should at least point out that the author of this blog is somebody who declined to immunize his children against Hepatitis B because only people who have promiscuous sex get Hepatitis B.

So we're not talking about a rocket surgeon here.

Yeah, and I've cringed at his dribblings in the past, but that doesn't make him wrong on this one. He might be an ignorant jerk but even ignorant jerks can be right on some things.

RumsfeldsReplacement:I do feel like I should at least point out that the author of this blog is somebody who declined to immunize his children against Hepatitis B because only people who have promiscuous sex get Hepatitis B.

So we're not talking about a rocket surgeon here.

That is ignorant; VACCINATE your FARKING KIDS, DOLT! It does not however make him any less correct on the article in question.

Trail of Dead:chubby muppet: As a new parent, I am very aware of my surroundings. I would never stay in a store if my baby was having a meltdown. You take her outside and if there's no hope of calming down, you go home. Sure it's inconvenient, but rolling the dice is part of being a parent. You take your chances, and many times it's good with a lot of people smiling and saying hi to you and your baby. But on those bad days you pack it up and go home. Very very simple.

Grocery stores are the last place on earth I would expect peace and quiet. Who cares? Your crying baby is drowning out the Billy Joel song on the Muzak machine, so thanks for that. You know what's more annoying in a grocery store? The husband/boyfriend who just stands with the cart in front of the tomatoes, staring at his blackberry, while the wife/girlfriend runs around doing the actual shopping. fark that guy. Useless.

I can understand being upset if someone doesn't take their screaming kid out of a movie or nice restaurant, because patrons paid to be there. They have a right to expect a certain atmosphere. Nobody has a right to expect serenity in a grocery store. If they do, their sense of entitlement is as overdeveloped as the snowflakes they most likely complain about constantly.

chubby muppet:As a new parent, I am very aware of my surroundings. I would never stay in a store if my baby was having a meltdown. You take her outside and if there's no hope of calming down, you go home. Sure it's inconvenient, but rolling the dice is part of being a parent. You take your chances, and many times it's good with a lot of people smiling and saying hi to you and your baby. But on those bad days you pack it up and go home. Very very simple.

It's not that simple. Nothing ever is. If your toddler is having a tantrum because he doesn't want to be there, leaving immediately effectively teaches him a quick way to get out of an undesirable situation. Continuing to shop may make other shoppers uncomfortable, but it teaches the kid that he doesn't get to dictate the agenda. It depends on the individual kid, of course. There's no simple answer that will make everyone happy.

jayhawk88:The twins in public thing is one of the weirdest phenomenon ever. I can't say we ever had a "strangers touching" problem, but just everywhere, everyone has to know "do they run in your family" or "are they identical". It does lessen the older they get, though.

How much older? I'm 46 and random strangers still feel the need to comment on my breasts.

HEY EVERYONE, Freudian Slipknot just found an article in a medical journal about parents being dumbasses. This means that all parents are stupid, FS is an expert on child rearing, and all of your arguments are invalid.

ph0rk:Some parents have very well behaved children that do not annoy other adults when in public. If this does not describe your children and you persist in taking them out in public, you are bad and you should feel bad.

Lol, no. Sometimes children are well behaved in public. But no children are always well behaved in public. You are wrong, and you should feel wrong.

Every jackass is an expert on parenting before they have any kids of their own. When they do, they discover that parenting is not as simple or as black-and-white as they thought. Moreover, they discover that their priority is always the safety, discipline, and well-being of their child, over the comfort, convenience, and opinions of random passersby.

Except discipline creates comfort and conveniences for a passerby. Lack of discipline fosters opinions in a passerby.

The problem is that non-parents too often equate "discipline" with "quiet and meekly behaved at all times." It's not so.

Sometimes a parent disciplining a child results in explosive outbursts and tantrums. Sometimes it's because the child wants something (candy, a toy, or to go somewhere else) and the parent is holding firm in saying no. It's easy to placate a child and prevent tantrums by giving them what they want all the time, but that is not discipline.

What you perceive as "lack of discipline" may in fact be the parent disciplining their child, asserting their authority and teaching the child that they do not always get everything they want, and that a tantrum is not an effective way of influencing their parents' actions. Despite what you think, parents are not oblivious to their child throwing a tantrum - they are painfully aware of it and likely embarrassed - but they are dealing with it in the best way they know how and trying to discourage (not reward) that kind of behavior.

As a new parent, I am very aware of my surroundings. I would never stay in a store if my baby was having a meltdown. You take her outside and if there's no hope of calming down, you go home. Sure it's inconvenient, but rolling the dice is part of being a parent. You take your chances, and many times it's good with a lot of people smiling and saying hi to you and your baby. But on those bad days you pack it up and go home. Very very simple.

Jim_Callahan:Slightly more realistically, the peanut gallery probably expects you to drop all of your groceries and immediately run into the parking lot, so as to save them from having to deal with the spectacle. But it's not always that simple;Dear random internet guy;It's exactly that simple. Note how your car has child locks?Not everyone has a car.

Step 1: "Hey, passerby, could you watch my cart a minute?"No he can't. And having to stand next to a cart for ten minutes surely is more irritating than listening to a kid crying over at the other isle.

Step 2: Put kid in car. Crack windows.What car? And a three year old can open that window by himself so you won't have to.

Step 3: "I will back in 15 minutes, you'd better be quiet by then or we're going home." Lock doors.A locked door is hardly an obstacle for a smart three-year old. And he's not going to sit quietly in the car (if you have one). He's going to rip everything on the inside to shreds and draw on everything he can't destroy. If he doesn't have something to draw with replace "draw" with "engrave using your sunglasses".

Step 4: Return to cart. Check out.Finally something that I can do.

Step 5: Kid still fussing?y: Go home. Shopping trip's over. Make it clear to the kid why the shopping trip is over.If I was to stop shopping every time the kid is crying I'd never get to shop anything. Do you expect all parents to grow/gather/hunt their own food?

n: Return to shopping.Seriously, man, raising a kid is not rocket science. Any idiot can do it, many idiots do do it, and statistically at least half those idiots are doing it better than you are. Well, your kid is throwing fits in public without first suffering pain or injury, so let's be realistic: 9/10 of idiots are doing it better than you.Every parent you see shopping with a one-four year old kid who isn't having a tantrum is probably having a good shopping trip, not a non-tantrumy kid.

Sincerely, One of the people that has to deal with the consequences of your poor decisions when they hit the education systemNo way you're reflected enough about kids to be a teacher. So that is a blatant lie. Either that or you're a janitor.

MycroftHolmes:Albinoman: No, not at all. You made that statement after copying my post, who else would it be to? Your statement was to imply my lack of understanding of what it's like to be a parent. I've been there, she's now long gone and I'm still childless. I countered by basically saying you know nothing about me (like you thought I did about parenting), yet felt "confident" in saying I'm an idiot. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy.

So, a guy who says that non-parents are qualified to critique parents, then backs this argument up by saying that he was a de facto parent and then therefore qualified. So, my label of idiot applies in two ways. First, you basically misreprented yourself, then tried to claim I was wrong because I was passing judgement based on your original self characterization (as a non-parent). Second, you undermined your own argument by saying that your right as a non-parent to criticize comes from your experience in a parental role.

So, yeah, idiot applies.

First, thanks for admitting you were originally passing judgment this time instead of claiming it was just some "declarative statement" about no one like you did before. I mean really, anyone could see that.

I don't really think it's a hard concept to grasp that while having no children of my own I have had to play that role. I don't see anywhere where I stated otherwise. Feel free to quote me. My opinions about screaming brats and their shiatty parents have never changed. What you don't get is that I did it with out any prior knowledge, you just go into it blind cause you don't have a choice and what that means is what parents think they know through experience really doesn't count for much. You're mostly programmed for it, so the observations of those without children are perfectly valid.

I hate kids. Specifically other people's kids. I have one of my own though, and he has been properly acclimated to function in society without causing a disturbance to others - specifically on airplanes and in restaurants. He is better behaved than most adults in similar situations I think. Maybe that is because their parents raised them wrong as well. It is not difficult to create a functioning young person though as a parent, but it does involve discapline, fear of punishment and a 3DS/Iphone.

Slightly more realistically, the peanut gallery probably expects you to drop all of your groceries and immediately run into the parking lot, so as to save them from having to deal with the spectacle. But it's not always that simple;

Dear random internet guy;

It's exactly that simple. Note how your car has child locks?

Step 1: "Hey, passerby, could you watch my cart a minute?"

Step 2: Put kid in car. Crack windows.

Step 3: "I will back in 15 minutes, you'd better be quiet by then or we're going home." Lock doors.

Step 4: Return to cart. Check out.

Step 5: Kid still fussing?

y: Go home. Shopping trip's over. Make it clear to the kid why the shopping trip is over.n: Return to shopping.

Seriously, man, raising a kid is not rocket science. Any idiot can do it, many idiots do do it, and statistically at least half those idiots are doing it better than you are. Well, your kid is throwing fits in public without first suffering pain or injury, so let's be realistic: 9/10 of idiots are doing it better than you.

Sincerely,

One of the people that has to deal with the consequences of your poor decisions when they hit the education system

TalenLee:Sometimes on a bus I'll hear a kid get a real wail on and that makes me super uncomfortable.

That's because there's actually a physiological reaction to a child's crying. Humans respond to it far more than they do other noises. It's also why even when there's plenty of other stuff going on that's really distracting or noisy, a child's cry is so easy to hear.

Isn't parenting nothing more than trial by fire? Somehow I doubt that by having a child an individual magically becomes a parenting expert. They know how they deal with their children. Nothing more, nothing less. If I went out and purchased a skill saw, lathe, planer and other assorted carpentry tools that doesn't automatically transform me into a master craftsmen. Same with children and parenting. Other people's input will help you hone your skills. Just because you may not agree with or like what is being offered doesn't mean that it doesn't work. It may be that it just doesn't work for you. Both sides. Get over it.

Spare me. You could be on the bus with a mom on her way to the doctor with a child that has an earache, or fell down getting on and barked a shin and is crying about it and you'd be right there with the other delicate flowers in this thread telling her she's a bad mother and should get off the bus until her "fark trophy" calms down, right?

I swear, every one of these threads is like a catalog of entitled snowflakes. Bunch of candy-asses, I can't believe you can possibly function in the real world.

What the fark do you people do when instead of having an encounter with a child, you run into an adult who is actually an asshole?

Man, I wonder where those people come from? I'm sure their parents raised them right, because parents are always right about their kids.

Contempt, no. They are wonderful people who have always been there for me. Much like the parents of my friends for them, my co-workers, myself for mine, etc. However, many people seem to think that parenting grants magic knowledge or that having (or not having) children affects the truth value of a person's statements, and that I find amusing.

I think you are confusing experience with "magical knowledge". Would you agree that for instance a zoo keeper making statements regarding the care and feeding of zoo animals opinion is more valid on that subject than that of someone who has never had even a pet?

Personally, I wouldn't, necessarily. I know a woman who runs a "bird rehab". Her birds are obviously atrociously cared-for. I've never had a kestrel, but I know how to tell one is not well taken care of.

So, keeping the metaphor going, some zookeepers don't know what they're doing. Some zookeepers get eaten by lions, and then even people who have never had a pet can rightly say "Wow, that guy was a bad zookeeper."

I don't have kids, but they don't bother me at all. They're pretty funny when they run around screaming and breaking stuff. Even a bawling baby on the airplane is probably having massive stabby pains in the ear, so I feel sorry for them.I do hate new mommies though. That tone of voice they use, even with other adults. They almost never look happy. And what is it with the farking khaki mom shorts with the little turned up cuffs? And the $2,000 strollers (Hoboken thing maybe)? I can't go to my local Starbucks any more - it's been occupied by lame-shorts-wearing new mommies babytalking to other new mommies about snowflake stuff. farking kill me.Then there's the mommy bloggers. A real live human woman who is not at all embarrassed to call themselves a mommy blogger or mommy advocate. I can't fap to that. I can't fap to that at all.

i used to get annoyed about kids screaming and being loud in public. Then I had a kid. Now I think its endlessly amusing.

Also, there's a world of difference between tantrum throwing and general normal kid noise. 95% percent of the racket is just kid noise. Kids are noisy. Well behaved kids are also loud at times. It's just the way it is.

Spare me. You could be on the bus with a mom on her way to the doctor with a child that has an earache, or fell down getting on and barked a shin and is crying about it and you'd be right there with the other delicate flowers in this thread telling her she's a bad mother and should get off the bus until her "fark trophy" calms down, right?

I swear, every one of these threads is like a catalog of entitled snowflakes. Bunch of candy-asses, I can't believe you can possibly function in the real world.

What the fark do you people do when instead of having an encounter with a child, you run into an adult who is actually an asshole? If you can't handle a child getting worked up, i can't imagine you're well-prepared for the harsh realities of life.

Maybe you should just stay home until you're better prepared to deal with people you might encounter as soon as you leave.

I am a big fan of opera. When my two girls used to act up in the store I would begin to belt out the final scene of "Don Giovanni" at the top of my lungs. Yah, it got me a few looks, but it only took a couple of bars and it was like my kids were walking in a funeral procession. Worked like the sweet, sweet musical magic it is.

Contempt, no. They are wonderful people who have always been there for me. Much like the parents of my friends for them, my co-workers, myself for mine, etc. However, many people seem to think that parenting grants magic knowledge or that having (or not having) children affects the truth value of a person's statements, and that I find amusing.

Speaking from my own limited experience here - If it grants you anything beyond stress and sleepless nights, parenting grants you heightened sympathy/empathy for what other parents are going through. You may not know that guy next to you, and he may not know you. You both have, however, been screamed at for a few months by someone who can barely communicate back to you, have been worried the first time the little one got sick, wondered if you are doing it right, have been urinated on, etc.

TalenLee:earthwirm: TalenLee: earthwirm: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

That's just a flat out lie. I get to have an opinion on anything. Now, the idea that a person doesn't get to express their opinion because you don't think it's justified or morally acceptable or whatever is fine, but I'm fairly sure that telling them their opinion is flat-out not allowed to exist is, at the very least, dickish.

No, it's called humanity. Instead of having a rude demeanor and making everyone days bad , you can choose to lighten the mood or help. Being a jack wagon doesn't and won't help.

You seem to misunderstand me.

I'm not saying 'the opinion about children is A or B.'

I'm saying 'telling someone they're not allowed to have any opinion at all is dickish.'

And... I dunno, it sounds like two people are frustrated and upset with the circumstances, but only one of them is allowed to feel that way because they're a parent, the other is someone uninvolved in the child's life...?

I wonder if anyone has done some realistic investigation into what would happen if people everywhere stopped having children. KInd of like that series on Discovery or whatever channel it was where they looked at what would happen if humans disappeared.

Albinoman:You don't have to be a good singer to know when someone is bombing a song. Similarly, I don't have to be a parent to know when someone is bad at it. I find it weird how someone becomes a parent and suddenly they're grafted with all this knowledge the childless obviously could never know, right? All those parents that claim to be above opinions and criticism forget that everyone the biggest idiots seems to be able to keep their children alive and by virtue of the fact that we all figure out parenting as an instinct (or we'd die out), they aren't really much more knowledgeable than the rest of us.

If a child throws a tantrum in public, you just need to look up at the shiatty, effete parents. That all being said, the large majority of parents and children aren't the problem.

A wise man knows how much he doesn't know. An idiot is confident in his lack of knowledge. I will let you guess which one you are.

Every jackass is an expert on parenting before they have any kids of their own. When they do, they discover that parenting is not as simple or as black-and-white as they thought. Moreover, they discover that their priority is always the safety, discipline, and well-being of their child, over the comfort, convenience, and opinions of random passersby.

Cyclometh:marsoft: Cyclometh: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

No, you do not.

Yes she does. She just should not be dickish about it if she chooses to share it with the parent.

That's misconstruing what she said by reading the letter of it as opposed to the intent.

Plenty will display that sense of entitlement coupled with ignorance and selfishness. It's an oafish, arrogant and despicable attitude that says you have a right to be free of encountering a child on a public bus.

My Mom had 4 children and, back in the day, you were still permitted to spank your child and that took care of most behavioral issues. I honestly can't remember me or any of my 3 brothers ever throwing a fit. I'm sure we must have, but you could count on old Mom lowering the boom and that stemmed most bad behavior.

I have no full-time children but I have a few nieces and nephews that I see every once in a while and I've raised an extremely well-behaved dog, so I really think that my opinion on parenting has merit.

As a new father of twin girls, feel free to express any opinion you want. I may laugh, I may tell you off. Either way, we'll be good.

Do NOT, however, just walk up and start rubbing their cheek or stroking their hair. I just about knocked a woman out last night for doing that. Didn't say two words to me, just walks up and starts rubbing my youngest's head. Creepy as hell.

earthwirm:TalenLee: earthwirm: Lady J: if i have to listen to your screeching brat on the bus, i get to have an opinion

Actually, no you don't. Deal with it.

That's just a flat out lie. I get to have an opinion on anything. Now, the idea that a person doesn't get to express their opinion because you don't think it's justified or morally acceptable or whatever is fine, but I'm fairly sure that telling them their opinion is flat-out not allowed to exist is, at the very least, dickish.

No, it's called humanity. Instead of having a rude demeanor and making everyone days bad , you can choose to lighten the mood or help. Being a jack wagon doesn't and won't help.

You seem to misunderstand me.

I'm not saying 'the opinion about children is A or B.'

I'm saying 'telling someone they're not allowed to have any opinion at all is dickish.'

And... I dunno, it sounds like two people are frustrated and upset with the circumstances, but only one of them is allowed to feel that way because they're a parent, the other is someone uninvolved in the child's life...?

robohobo:Also, we're all forcefully made to contribute monetarily to children that aren't ours. So fark off, parents. YOU farking made the choice to make more people. In most cases, people you cannot afford.

Almost caught me.....I wrote an entire reply before going "Wait a minute......"