For instance, I had to Goggle "Chappaquidick" because I had never seen it associated with Kennedy's name, whereas "Laura Bush and Midland" or "Better not drive a Corvair around Laura Bush" or "ask the family of Michael Douglas" are practically popular culture catch-phrases.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

For instance, I had to Goggle "Chappaquidick" because I had never seen it associated with Kennedy's name, whereas "Laura Bush and Midland" or "Better not drive a Corvair around Laura Bush" or "ask the family of Michael Douglas" are practically popular culture catch-phrases.

Dear God, man. ENOUGH with the whole "Laura bush ran a stop sign at 50 mph and killed someone when she was 17 and no charges were ever filed" because I AM SO FEKKIN' TIRED OF THE DAY-LONG MSNBC SPECIALS DEVOTED TO INVESTIGATING IT.

Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.

You know, Adda, it occurs to me that we don't actually know that Kennedy wasn't responsible for the death of anyone else. Or even hundreds of anyone elses. WHAT KIND OF MONSTER WAS HE? AND WHY ISN'T THE LIBERAL MEDIA INVESTIGATING ALL THE DEATHS ON HIS HANDS?

Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.

You know, Adda, it occurs to me that we don't actually know that Kennedy wasn't responsible for the death of anyone else. Or even hundreds of anyone elses. WHAT KIND OF MONSTER WAS HE? AND WHY ISN'T THE LIBERAL MEDIA INVESTIGATING ALL THE DEATHS ON HIS HANDS?

Well, when you look at the objective facts, Kennedy was a strident advocate of a "health care" system designed to euthanize millions of the "less desirable" Americans via the agency of a brutal coupe executed by alien usurper, so it follows that he was quite likely capable of literally anything to further his agenda, no matter how brutal.

Of course, liberals aren't interested in objective facts, which is why they are forced to descend to name calling like "you might consider adjusting your medication" and "please take your blackboard explaining how Everything Works elsewhere" or "a restraining order isn't a suggestion."

And, needless to say, the liberal media have done their part to keep the terrible truth from the American people, by shunning the truth tellers and pretending like they don't exist.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

For instance, I had to Goggle "Chappaquidick" because I had never seen it associated with Kennedy's name, whereas "Laura Bush and Midland" or "Better not drive a Corvair around Laura Bush" or "ask the family of Michael Douglas" are practically popular culture catch-phrases.

This might be a regional thing but I'm sure I've heard it all over the US too, but we call running a Stop sign and committing vehicular manslaughter "pulling a Laura Bush".

You know, Adda, it occurs to me that we don't actually know that Kennedy wasn't responsible for the death of anyone else. Or even hundreds of anyone elses. WHAT KIND OF MONSTER WAS HE? AND WHY ISN'T THE LIBERAL MEDIA INVESTIGATING ALL THE DEATHS ON HIS HANDS?

The problem was he never left any evidence because HE DEVOURED HIS VICTIMS!

Why doesn't the family of Ted Kennedy release the vault copy of the autopsy? I'm not saying Ted Kennedy devoured Belgian babies, the jury is still out on that count, but wouldn't it just make sense to make the evidence available to all and put the matter to rest?

A simple tissue analysis should suffice, I would think, and my understanding is such an analysis is routinely done as part of the standard post mortem exam. If it wasn't done, why not? If it was, where are the results?

You don't have to be "a crazy" to notice there's something very, very odd about how this matter is being handled. Very, very, very, very, very, very odd.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

At the time "adopted" was widely understood to be a euphemism for "devoured." And say, who's this, laying the foundations for his sinister plot to make America a French chattel? Old Joe Kennedy, most definitely a man of his time. It's almost inconceivable that he would not have participated in the Belgian baby "adoption" craze, and its well known the lengths he went to to force his boys to walk in his footsteps.

Not that any so called "investigative journalist" will ever make an effort to connect the blindingly obvious dots because CRICKETS MOTHERFUCKERS.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

Thank you all so very much for the intentional killing of what could have been a very good thread. It is not like anyone had anything to say so why not hijack it with intentionally over the top nonsense.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

Thank you all so very much for the intentional killing of what could have been a very good thread. It is not like anyone had anything to say so why not hijack it with intentionally over the top nonsense.

"Over the top nonsense"? I beg your pardon? Maybe you're content to let various Hitler redux death paneling kill bots work day and night to bring this country to its knees, but I, for one, will follow the rabbit hole however far it goes.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the spittle of patriots."

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

"Over the top nonsense"? I beg your pardon? Maybe you're content to let various Hitler redux death paneling kill bots work day and night to bring this country to its knees, but I, for one, will follow the rabbit hole however far it goes.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the spittle of patriots."

This is very true, and well said.

The point isn't whether or not Ted Kennedy ate Belgian infants (or indeed whether or not he was the inventor of Zyklon B, as it has been suggested).

The point is that I would like to find ways of staining his reputation because I disagreed with him politically even though I would object to my tactics as mendacious and undignified if they were directed at someone in my 'team', and this I because I am a hypocritical and spiteful cunt with no honour.

Thank you all so very much for the intentional killing of what could have been a very good thread. It is not like anyone had anything to say so why not hijack it with intentionally over the top nonsense.

Ignore is your friend and threads like this are perfect incubators for determining who needs that honor.

"Over the top nonsense"? I beg your pardon? Maybe you're content to let various Hitler redux death paneling kill bots work day and night to bring this country to its knees, but I, for one, will follow the rabbit hole however far it goes.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the spittle of patriots."

First of all, I fall into neither category.

Second of all, if you wish to water the tree of liberty, do it elsewhere. There is enough spittle around here without people manufacturing more.

And Mumbo Jumbo, I hope you are not aiming your comments at me as none of them apply.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

The point isn't whether or not Ted Kennedy ate Belgian infants (or indeed whether or not he was the inventor of Zyklon B, as it has been suggested).

The point is that I would like to find ways of staining his reputation because I disagreed with him politically even though I would object to my tactics as mendacious and undignified if they were directed at someone in my 'team', and this I because I am a hypocritical and spiteful cunt with no honour.

Waitaminute. I cook some dinner for friends, go to bed, wake up the next morning and find that this thread has devolved into a serious discussion of whether or not to treat seriously a discussion whose aim is to whittle away at a dead man's legacy. WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THIS PLACE??

And then Mumbo Jumbo said "cunt" and that was awesome, because I wish Americans used "cunt" in casual conversation like the Brits do.

Who else got banned?

Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.

Waitaminute. I cook some dinner for friends, go to bed, wake up the next morning and find that this thread has devolved into a serious discussion of whether or not to treat seriously a discussion whose aim is to whittle away at a dead man's legacy. WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THIS PLACE??

And then Mumbo Jumbo said "cunt" and that was awesome, because I wish Americans used "cunt" in casual conversation like the Brits do.

Who else got banned?

Someone's comment on a certain male member. Or so I would assume.

If you haven't noticed, a small cabal of those of a particular political persuasion suspiciously showed up shortly after the November general election.

I will return to silent mode when a certain 10-day period is over.

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!

[LEFT]Today we say goodbye to the youngest child of Rose and Joseph Kennedy. The world will long remember their son Edward as the heir to a weighty legacy; a champion for those who had none; the soul of the Democratic Party; and the lion of the U.S. Senate – a man whose name graces nearly one thousand laws, and who penned more than three hundred himself.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]But those of us who loved him, and ache with his passing, know Ted Kennedy by the other titles he held: Father. Brother. Husband. Uncle Teddy, or as he was often known to his younger nieces and nephews, "The Grand Fromage," or "The Big Cheese." I, like so many others in the city where he worked for nearly half a century, knew him as a colleague, a mentor, and above all, a friend.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]Ted Kennedy was the baby of the family who became its patriarch; the restless dreamer who became its rock. He was the sunny, joyful child, who bore the brunt of his brothers’ teasing, but learned quickly how to brush it off. When they tossed him off a boat because he didn’t know what a jib was, six-year-old Teddy got back in and learned to sail. When a photographer asked the newly-elected Bobby to step back at a press conference because he was casting a shadow on his younger brother, Teddy quipped, "It’ll be the same in Washington."[/LEFT]

[LEFT]This spirit of resilience and good humor would see Ted Kennedy through more pain and tragedy than most of us will ever know. He lost two siblings by the age of sixteen. He saw two more taken violently from the country that loved them. He said goodbye to his beloved sister, Eunice, in the final days of his own life. He narrowly survived a plane crash, watched two children struggle with cancer, buried three nephews, and experienced personal failings and setbacks in the most public way possible.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]It is a string of events that would have broken a lesser man. And it would have been easy for Teddy to let himself become bitter and hardened; to surrender to self-pity and regret; to retreat from public life and live out his years in peaceful quiet. No one would have blamed him for that.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]But that was not Ted Kennedy. As he told us, "...[I]ndividual faults and frailties are no excuse to give in – and no exemption from the common obligation to give of ourselves." Indeed, Ted was the "Happy Warrior" that the poet William Wordsworth spoke of when he wrote:[/LEFT]

[LEFT]As tempted more; more able to endure,[/LEFT]

[LEFT]As more exposed to suffering and distress;[/LEFT]

[LEFT]Thence, also, more alive to tenderness.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]Through his own suffering, Ted Kennedy became more alive to the plight and suffering of others – the sick child who could not see a doctor; the young soldier sent to battle without armor; the citizen denied her rights because of what she looks like or who she loves or where she comes from. The landmark laws that he championed -- the Civil Rights Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, immigration reform, children’s health care, the Family and Medical Leave Act –all have a running thread. Ted Kennedy’s life’s work was not to champion those with wealth or power or special connections. It was to give a voice to those who were not heard; to add a rung to the ladder of opportunity; to make real the dream of our founding. He was given the gift of time that his brothers were not, and he used that gift to touch as many lives and right as many wrongs as the years would allow.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]We can still hear his voice bellowing through the Senate chamber, face reddened, fist pounding the podium, a veritable force of nature, in support of health care or workers’ rights or civil rights. And yet, while his causes became deeply personal, his disagreements never did. While he was seen by his fiercest critics as a partisan lightning rod, that is not the prism through which Ted Kennedy saw the world, nor was it the prism through which his colleagues saw him. He was a product of an age when the joy and nobility of politics prevented differences of party and philosophy from becoming barriers to cooperation and mutual respect – a time when adversaries still saw each other as patriots.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]And that’s how Ted Kennedy became the greatest legislator of our time. He did it by hewing to principle, but also by seeking compromise and common cause – not through deal-making and horse-trading alone, but through friendship, and kindness, and humor. There was the time he courted Orrin Hatch’s support for the Children’s Health Insurance Program by having his Chief of Staff serenade the Senator with a song Orrin had written himself; the time he delivered shamrock cookies on a china plate to sweeten up a crusty Republican colleague; and the famous story of how he won the support of a Texas Committee Chairman on an immigration bill. Teddy walked into a meeting with a plain manila envelope, and showed only the Chairman that it was filled with the Texan’s favorite cigars. When the negotiations were going well, he would inch the envelope closer to the Chairman. When they weren’t, he would pull it back. Before long, the deal was done.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]It was only a few years ago, on St. Patrick's Day, when Teddy buttonholed me on the floor of the Senate for my support on a certain piece of legislation that was coming up for vote. I gave him my pledge, but expressed my skepticism that it would pass. But when the roll call was over, the bill garnered the votes it needed, and then some. I looked at Teddy with astonishment and asked how he had pulled it off. He just patted me on the back, and said "Luck of the Irish!"[/LEFT]

[LEFT]Of course, luck had little to do with Ted Kennedy’s legislative success, and he knew that. A few years ago, his father-in-law told him that he and Daniel Webster just might be the two greatest senators of all time. Without missing a beat, Teddy replied, "What did Webster do?"[/LEFT]

[LEFT]But though it is Ted Kennedy’s historic body of achievements we will remember, it is his giving heart that we will miss. It was the friend and colleague who was always the first to pick up the phone and say, "I’m sorry for your loss," or "I hope you feel better," or "What can I do to help?" It was the boss who was so adored by his staff that over five hundred spanning five decades showed up for his 75th birthday party. It was the man who sent birthday wishes and thank you notes and even his own paintings to so many who never imagined that a U.S. Senator would take the time to think about someone like them. I have one of those paintings in my private study – a Cape Cod seascape that was a gift to a freshman legislator who happened to admire it when Ted Kennedy welcomed him into his office the first week he arrived in Washington; by the way, that’s my second favorite gift from Teddy and Vicki after our dog Bo. And it seems like everyone has one of those stories – the ones that often start with "You wouldn’t believe who called me today."[/LEFT]

[LEFT]Ted Kennedy was the father who looked after not only his own three children, but John’s and Bobby’s as well. He took them camping and taught them to sail. He laughed and danced with them at birthdays and weddings; cried and mourned with them through hardship and tragedy; and passed on that same sense of service and selflessness that his parents had instilled in him. Shortly after Ted walked Caroline down the aisle and gave her away at the altar, he received a note from Jackie that read, "On you the carefree youngest brother fell a burden a hero would have begged to be spared. We are all going to make it because you were always there with your love."[/LEFT]

[LEFT]Not only did the Kennedy family make it because of Ted’s love – he made it because of theirs; and especially because of the love and the life he found in Vicki. After so much loss and so much sorrow, it could not have been easy for Ted Kennedy to risk his heart again. That he did is a testament to how deeply he loved this remarkable woman from Louisiana. And she didn’t just love him back. As Ted would often acknowledge, Vicki saved him. She gave him strength and purpose; joy and friendship; and stood by him always, especially in those last, hardest days.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]We cannot know for certain how long we have here. We cannot foresee the trials or misfortunes that will test us along the way. We cannot know God’s plan for us.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]What we can do is to live out our lives as best we can with purpose, and love, and joy. We can use each day to show those who are closest to us how much we care about them, and treat others with the kindness and respect that we wish for ourselves. We can learn from our mistakes and grow from our failures. And we can strive at all costs to make a better world, so that someday, if we are blessed with the chance to look back on our time here, we can know that we spent it well; that we made a difference; that our fleeting presence had a lasting impact on the lives of other human beings.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]This is how Ted Kennedy lived. This is his legacy. He once said of his brother Bobby that he need not be idealized or enlarged in death beyond what he was in life, and I imagine he would say the same about himself. The greatest expectations were placed upon Ted Kennedy’s shoulders because of who he was, but he surpassed them all because of who he became. We do not weep for him today because of the prestige attached to his name or his office. We weep because we loved this kind and tender hero who persevered through pain and tragedy – not for the sake of ambition or vanity; not for wealth or power; but only for the people and the country he loved.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]In the days after September 11th, Teddy made it a point to personally call each one of the 177 families of this state who lost a loved one in the attack. But he didn’t stop there. He kept calling and checking up on them. He fought through red tape to get them assistance and grief counseling. He invited them sailing, played with their children, and would write each family a letter whenever the anniversary of that terrible day came along. To one widow, he wrote the following:[/LEFT]

[LEFT]"As you know so well, the passage of time never really heals the tragic memory of such a great loss, but we carry on, because we have to, because our loved one would want us to, and because there is still light to guide us in the world from the love they gave us."[/LEFT]

[LEFT]We carry on.[/LEFT]

Ted Kennedy has gone home now, guided by his faith and by the light of those he has loved and lost. At last he is with them once more, leaving those of us who grieve his passing with the memories he gave, the good he did, the dream he kept alive, and a single, enduring image – the image of a man on a boat; white mane tousled; smiling broadly as he sails into the wind, ready for what storms may come, carrying on toward some new and wondrous place just beyond the horizon. May God Bless Ted Kennedy, and may he rest in eternal peace.

[CENTER]RIP Teddy[/CENTER]

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!

Waitaminute. I cook some dinner for friends, go to bed, wake up the next morning and find that this thread has devolved into a serious discussion of whether or not to treat seriously a discussion whose aim is to whittle away at a dead man's legacy. WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THIS PLACE??

That was not my intention for this thread. It does however seem to have devolved into this. I am aware that Ted Kennedy was a man that people loved or hated and feel that people usually do because the person is effective at what they do. Whether their effectiveness is for good or not is up to the interpretation of the person observing. Since he was obviously an effective senator it seems to me that this thread had the opportunity to be a great discussion of an interesting person.

Too bad people don't want to discuss the man, instead they want to foam at the mouth about the surrounding issues and verbally attack those who do not agree with their interpretations.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

That was not my intention for this thread. It does however seem to have devolved into this. I am aware that Ted Kennedy was a man that people loved or hated and feel that people usually do because the person is effective at what they do. Whether their effectiveness is for good or not is up to the interpretation of the person observing. Since he was obviously an effective senator it seems to me that this thread had the opportunity to be a great discussion of an interesting person.

Too bad people don't want to discuss the man, instead they want to foam at the mouth about the surrounding issues and verbally attack those who do not agree with their interpretations.

I would direct you to the second and third posts in this thread for examples of mouth-foaming (aside: did Gröverat get banned, too?). Ted Kennedy's legislative record is well-documented, but because we wasn't most folks' senator, asking for remembrances of his achievements is sort of like asking for what you favorite Orrin Hatch bills are. People don't know Kennedy's specific legislative accomplishments (which are legion) off the top of their heads and will obviously bring up what they do remember: Chappaquiddick.

And so that's what happened to this thread, which the 15th post makes clear. The 20th post details some of his accomplishments; I noted that he had authored hundreds of bills and then you asked for specifics, but I'm not going to go cut and paste from wikipedia just to keep post 3 from happening again.

The real question is how this will affect a) the health care debate and b) the dems' "strategy," since they're down to 59 senators again.

Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.

I would direct you to the second and third posts in this thread for examples of mouth-foaming (aside: did Gröverat get banned, too?).

Not sure about Groverat, does not seem to be by his tag though. As for the Second and third posts, I don't see any foam, One states that he had past problems smoothed over by money and was otherwise a good man who accomplished a lot. The other states a personal opinion which, while crass maybe, still lacked foam. The first was, I felt, an honest answer, the second, a kneejerk response.

Quote:

Ted Kennedy's legislative record is well-documented, but because we wasn't most folks' senator, asking for remembrances of his achievements is sort of like asking for what you favorite Orrin Hatch bills are. People don't know Kennedy's specific legislative accomplishments (which are legion) off the top of their heads

While that also may be true, I was asking what specifically you remember him best for. Penning hundreds of bills and having your name attached to over a thousand bills is an accomplishment in its own right, but I am not talking about Guinness book type stuff. I am talking about what you remember him for.

Quote:

and will obviously bring up what they do remember: Chappaquiddick.

A valid remembrance, whether you like it or not. Whether he was guilty or not, it was handled poorly and seems to have left room for doubt. Does it erase any good he may have accomplished? No. Hence why I am asking what people think he should be remembered for.

Quote:

And so that's what happened to this thread, which the 15th post makes clear. The 20th post details some of his accomplishments; I noted that he had authored hundreds of bills and then you asked for specifics, but I'm not going to go cut and paste from wikipedia just to keep post 3 from happening again.

Post 15 was a good response, It started planting seed for conversation. Unfortunately, nearly everyone ignored the opportunity and continued on with the foaming and flaming.

If you think he should be remembered for the number of bills he authored, then I guess that works too. Seems to lessen any accomplishment he truly did though if you cannot point to one that truly made a difference. In all the thousands are there one or two that he had a hand in that you can point to? I pointed to FMLA, which I have used happily when all my children were born. I understand he had a hand in that legislation. Not sure he pushed it directly, but if he did, I consider that a good accomplishment.

Quote:

The real question is how this will affect a) the health care debate and b) the dems' "strategy," since they're down to 59 senators again.

That is one question that could be answered as well. However, it seems like it might be better suited for the various Healthcare threads, to keep their conversations focused, and not scattering the debate around.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

As for the Second and third posts, I don't see any foam, One states that he had past problems smoothed over by money and was otherwise a good man who accomplished a lot. The other states a personal opinion which, while crass maybe, still lacked foam. The first was, I felt, an honest answer, the second, a kneejerk response.

Then I'd suggest you recalibrate your foamometer, because if you're complaining about the lack of any serious discussion of Kennedy's memory, "rich bastard shoulda been locked up" and "good riddance" hardly further anything.

Quote:

While that also may be true, I was asking what specifically you remember him best for. Penning hundreds of bills and having your name attached to over a thousand bills is an accomplishment in its own right, but I am not talking about Guinness book type stuff. I am talking about what you remember him for.

And I explained that, without doing some research, most people simply can't answer that question beyond saying Chappaquiddick.

Quote:

Post 15 was a good response, It started planting seed for conversation. Unfortunately, nearly everyone ignored the opportunity and continued on with the foaming and flaming.

As I have said several times now, without doing some research on Kennedy's legislative history, most folks can't have a conversation about this topic beyond talking about Chappaquiddick. Or mentioning that he had a drinking problem.

Quote:

In all the thousands are there one or two that he had a hand in that you can point to?

Not without doing some research.

Quote:

That is one question that could be answered as well. However, it seems like it might be better suited for the various Healthcare threads, to keep their conversations focused, and not scattering the debate around.

Sure thing, boss.

Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.

Got it, not really important enough to you to do research. A valid response. I have read the links provided and saw a few things I did not know, outside of Chappaquiddick. No problem, thanks for keeping it civil.

I am not trying to tell you what not to say, just trying to keep the conversation going, ignore at will any suggestions.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

Got it, not really important enough to you to do research. A valid response. I have read the links provided and saw a few things I did not know, outside of Chappaquiddick. No problem, thanks for keeping it civil.

I am not trying to tell you what not to say, just trying to keep the conversation going, ignore at will any suggestions.

Naïve is a French loanword (adjective, form of naïf) indicating having or showing a lack of experience, understanding or sophistication. It can also be spelled naive. The noun form can be written naivety, naïvety, naïveté, naïvete, or naiveté.

Do your own research. In other words: Homey don't play that.

Leading questions just leads itself into more leading questions, an endless cycle, or so it would appear. \

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!