What do you guys think is a handgun caliber that really shouldn't exist? Of course each one has stopping power, etc but I mean compared to already existing calibers, what could we do without?

For me, I would have to say the 38 super or 44 special. I mean, why shoot 38 special when 9mm is so available, cheaper and similar stopping power. 44 special because why have any revolver round that is larger than the more powerful 357 magnum and less powerful than the similar sized 44 mag.

223556

09-10-2012, 3:56 PM

I think you nailed it.
.41 AE is another you can add.

ElvenSoul

09-10-2012, 3:56 PM

.45 Super

38WCF

CSACANNONEER

09-10-2012, 3:58 PM

My S&W in 32-20 is neat but, it is pretty much a useless revolver cartridge today.

zfields

09-10-2012, 3:59 PM

What do you guys think is a handgun caliber that really shouldn't exist? Of course each one has stopping power, etc but I mean compared to already existing calibers, what could we do without?

For me, I would have to say the 38 super or 44 special. I mean, why shoot 38 special when 9mm is so available, cheaper and similar stopping power. 44 special because why have any revolver round that is larger than the more powerful 357 magnum and less powerful than the similar sized 44 mag.

38 super is nothing like 9mm.

InGrAM

09-10-2012, 4:00 PM

38 super is a very good round for SD... I'll take 1425 FPS with a 115g bullet any day of the week over 9mm.
http://www.shopcorbon.com/Self-Defense-JHP/38-Super-Auto-Plus-P-115gr-CORBON-Self-Defense-JHP/SD38X115-20/100/Product

5.56Geo

09-10-2012, 4:01 PM

I would have to say the .357Sig or the .45GAP.:o

InGrAM

09-10-2012, 4:02 PM

5.56geo nailed it! .45gap is the meaning of pointless.

Distro

09-10-2012, 4:05 PM

.45 GAP, it has the side effect of planning a range trip and your friend sends a text "get me a few boxes of 45 for tomorrow" and it turns out he is talking about GAP not ACP.

Fjold

09-10-2012, 4:07 PM

Anything in 32 caliber.
The 44 special was a power house in it's day in small frame revolvers and was the base case for the 44 Magnum.
The 38 Super was built to offer higher power than the 9mm and offer greater capacity than the 45 ACP in the 1911 platform.

The 45 Gap is the king of useless.

dc2integra

09-10-2012, 4:08 PM

I think the 357 sig is one of them.But I don't agree with some of the calibers mentioned like the 38 super.I think it's a great round for competition shooting if you reload of course.

winnre

09-10-2012, 4:09 PM

25 Auto
45 GAP
.41 Magnum

FUBAR

09-10-2012, 4:11 PM

327 mag...why?

stormvet

09-10-2012, 4:12 PM

.45 GAP was nothing more then Glock wanting a round of thier own, like S&W .40 and SIG.357. But unlike S&W and SIG who designed a very functional and innovated round. Glock failed miserably.

winnre

09-10-2012, 4:13 PM

Hey I like the 32, it's a fun little caliber!

luchador768

09-10-2012, 4:14 PM

.45 GAP answered a question no one was asking.

.357 Sig is pretty useless as well. I've shot a fair amount of this round and I still don't get it. It does nothing spectacular.

I'm going to have to go with some of the off the wall wildcat cartridges like my 7MM TCU.

Joejitsu

09-10-2012, 4:24 PM

Oh I forgot about 45GAP! Yes

Colt-45

09-10-2012, 4:28 PM

What do you guys think is a handgun caliber that really shouldn't exist? Of course each one has stopping power, etc but I mean compared to already existing calibers, what could we do without?

For me, I would have to say the 38 super or 44 special. I mean, why shoot 38 special when 9mm is so available, cheaper and similar stopping power. 44 special because why have any revolver round that is larger than the more powerful 357 magnum and less powerful than the similar sized 44 mag.

Super or special?

rromeo

09-10-2012, 4:36 PM

.41AE wasn't useless at the time. It was in between 9mm and .45 ACP, but .40S&W obviously had better backing.

shooting4life

09-10-2012, 4:41 PM

30 carbine, useless in a handgun. Tons of muzzle flash and little velocity because all the ammo was loaded for a rifle.

Gryff

09-10-2012, 4:55 PM

.25/.32/.380

Black Majik

09-10-2012, 4:58 PM

25 Auto

My first thought as well.

jessegpresley

09-10-2012, 5:00 PM

50 AE.

23 Blast

09-10-2012, 5:08 PM

30 carbine, useless in a handgun. Tons of muzzle flash and little velocity because all the ammo was loaded for a rifle.

That's not the fault of the cartridge, though.

Most of the historically older cartridges mentioned all had their uses back in the day, but what baffles me are new cartridges that get introduced that don't seem to fill a gap or need. .45GAP was doomed to die because few people ever complained about the excessive length of a .45ACP - just the excessive length of Glock pistols in that caliber. Glock quickly remedied that with their SF models.

.327 Magnum seems like a solution looking for a problem. Plenty of small, concealable guns can be had in .357. A .327 revolver does what - add ONE more round of capacity? You're still trading off the time-proven effectiveness of .357 versus the smaller, lighter .327. Akin to trading a 9mm for a 7.65 Browning.

Personally, too - I never quite understood the appeal of gigantic handgun calibers like .454 Casull, .480 Ruger and .500S&W. I guess it's kind of cool to be the kid on the block with the biggest, baddest gun, and I understand that some people enjoy the challenge of handgun hunting - but as a practical use gun, if you were using it as bear protection, why not just carry a short rifle or a slug shotgun instead? More power with approximately the same encumbrance.

opie4386

09-10-2012, 5:55 PM

I agree with the .45 gap.

On a note. Im not really "getting it" with all these new rounds centered around the a/r platform. Cartridges are being introduce to solve problems that frankley.....other older cartridges can do.....if it cant be neutralized with a .308 or a .50 bmg you either live in a f*d up neighborhood or call in artillery.

Chaos47

09-10-2012, 5:57 PM

I love Glock but hands down 45 GAP is the most useless cartridge ever.

twotap

09-10-2012, 6:04 PM

327
25

bussda

09-10-2012, 6:34 PM

.30 Luger

Once an official military caliber...

Lumpia is sarap!®

09-10-2012, 6:48 PM

I would have to say the .357Sig or the .45GAP.:o

I can't really agree with this one, because certain LEO agencies are using .45GAP and/or .357 SIG.

hk91666

09-10-2012, 6:54 PM

. 25auto

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

Colt-45

09-10-2012, 6:56 PM

I'd have to say 45 gap and .380. I don't see the point in getting a .380 when the ammo is pricier than a 9mm and similar sized guns can be had in both calibers.

.25 ACP was the caliber in which micro guns were made in back in the day, useless now but it had it's purpose at one point.

Damiiaaannn

09-10-2012, 6:56 PM

.45 GAP

opie4386

09-10-2012, 7:09 PM

I can't really agree with this one, because certain LEO agencies are using .45GAP and/or .357 SIG.

The .357sig i like. Bottle neck reliability with velocities equal to the .357 magnum with 125gn bullets and reducing the case lenght frome 1.290 to .865 that is a .425 diffrence
Good idea good numbers bad ammo prices.

Vs

.45 gap equal ballistics to a .45acp in a .760 case lenght vs the acp .898 that os a .138 diffrence. Marginal at best.

The point im trying to make is the .357 servers it purpose of being a compact reliable semiauto .357

The .45gap is.....well a short .45acp and the worse part is you cant even trim the acp brass to gap lenghts.

JeremyS

09-10-2012, 7:33 PM

7.62x38r Nagant is pretty useless, due mainly to the fact that there was really only one handgun ever made to fire the round. Sure, the gas seal was a novel idea that allegedly bumped the round's velocity by 75 fps but it was still outmatched by the .32 H&R Magnum, which was available before the 7.62 Nagant was invented. Plus, if you happen to have an 1895 Nagant revolver, you don't even need the right ammo to use it! They fire fine with .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, and even .32 H&R Magnum if you want to push things a touch. So... pretty useless cartridge!

CK_32

09-10-2012, 7:37 PM

too many to name...

So anything that's not

22lr.. 9mm.. 40 sw.. 45 ACP.. 357 mag.. 38 spl.. 10mm..

Rest are either useless or outdated IMO

spex

09-10-2012, 7:39 PM

I would have to chime in and say .45 GAP
I had a Springfield XD in this caliber and sold it, due to the difficulty of finding a store that sold it.

G-Man WC

09-10-2012, 7:40 PM

Another vote for 25 Auto

Fishslayer

09-10-2012, 7:43 PM

.45 GAP leaps to mind since I've had to fish a few out of my brass lately.:mad:

thatsteveguy

09-10-2012, 8:00 PM

.45 GAP leaps to mind since I've had to fish a few out of my brass lately.:mad:

I get to the range every so often to shoot my GAP and ACP. When I'm ready to leave and start to clean my area I've had guys volunteer to clean my brass up if they can have it. I tell them to help themselves but always wonder if they're a little pee'ved later on when they fish GAP brass out of the mix. :rolleyes:

gorenut

09-10-2012, 8:01 PM

327 mag...why?

Because sometimes you can fit 1 more round on a cylinder that would normally only allow 6 rounds of 357. Not saying I'd ever get a gun in 327, but on a revolver, I can see its uses. Even one more round out of 6 is big % increase.

CK_32

09-10-2012, 8:08 PM

.45 GAP leaps to mind since I've had to fish a few out of my brass lately.:mad:

Hahaha I hear what you mean...

I pick up brass for 9mm/45/357 and always hate when I wasted time pickin up a ton of 45 gap and 40 S&W.. And half my stacks gone

Jk, I vote 45gap also. At least the 25auto you can still find some ammo..

jsipe007

09-11-2012, 7:42 AM

Federal 9mm and .45 GAP

Once went to buy a bunch of boxes of .45 from a guy locally. He showed up and I was like WTF kind of ammo is this? I didn't even know there was such caliber as .45 GAP back then...

Gothboy

09-11-2012, 8:06 AM

Once went to buy a bunch of boxes of .45 from a guy locally. He showed up and I was like WTF kind of ammo is this? I didn't even know there was such caliber as .45 GAP back then...

Thats hilarious! Yea, I say 45 gap too.
When I was going to buy my first .45 I looked at 1911's and glocks, since I had heard so much good about them. I said do you have any in 45 and he said yea, except it's 45 gap. I asked him to explain what 45 gap was and he did. Then I asked him "Why" and he couldnt even give me a decent answer because even he seemed to think it was the stupidest thing ever. Needless to say I walked with a 1911.

gap = crap.

Rorge Retson

09-11-2012, 8:15 AM

Just got my .357 Sig conversion a while ago, shot 200 rounds through it (that's through, Calguns, not threw like so many people here spell it...), and have been hesitant to shoot the other 600 rounds I have because I don't really want to spend another $20/box on more ammo for the pig.

On paper the hole looks the same as a 9mm, albeit a little cleaner around the edges. I think I'll wait until the BLM land opens up again and I get a chance to shoot my new steel targets...I'm thinking it's going to ring them a little more clearly than my 9mm, and maybe even the .40.

Of course, if it looks like I'm going to be shooting through vehicle doors anytime soon, I'll be installing my .357 Sig barrel first. ;)

I shoot 9X25 in my red-dot Glock 20. All you need is a barrel change (same mags) and yes, it is not a common round. :)

I buy mine from Dillon....some people reload it. It is very fast moving and this GLOCK 20 is zeroed in at 150 Yards. Good for plinking and with my bad eyes I can usually hit a paper plate. With a 20 Round preban (with Arrendondo extension) she becomes a hand-held-carbine of sorts.

Moving at 2000 FPS the bullet drop incredibably small. If you can see it you can hit it. The FLAME at night is noticable. hahaha..And at the range it wakes up everyone. But hey...I do this for FUN and nothing else.

From what I was told, the .45 GAP has only found a niche for security firms protecting heavily crowded places such as casinos. The thought was a big, slower round wouldn't pose as many over penetration, ricochet, etc. type issues as a smaller, faster round.

It will be interesting to see how long Glock continues to offer it.

Rorge Retson

09-11-2012, 2:45 PM

From what I was told, the .45 GAP has only found a niche for security firms protecting heavily crowded places such as casinos. The thought was a big, slower round wouldn't pose as many over penetration, ricochet, etc. type issues as a smaller, faster round.

Isn't that the description of the .45 ACP?

DRAB_81

09-11-2012, 2:57 PM

The purpose of the 45GAP, which is just a short OAL 45ACP, is to get 45 ballistics out of a small frame Glock (small frame = 9/40/357 models). There's a reason the 45/10mm frames are so big.

dkthree

09-11-2012, 8:48 PM

Isn't that the description of the .45 ACP?

The purpose of the 45GAP, which is just a short OAL 45ACP, is to get 45 ballistics out of a small frame Glock (small frame = 9/40/357 models). There's a reason the 45/10mm frames are so big.

I'm not trying to give purpose or description of the round, just putting a thought out there that the GAP round does have use to someone...just not me.

IMO, other than .22 LR and mag, anything smaller than .380 would be fairly useless.

DRAB_81

09-11-2012, 8:51 PM

I'm not trying to give purpose or description of the round, just putting a thought out there that the GAP round does have use to someone...just not me.

IMO, other than .22 LR and mag, anything smaller than .380 would be fairly useless.

Trust me, I'm not defending the 45GAP, just shedding some light on it's meaningless existence. It was the 1st caliber I posted as an example in this thread.

mls343

09-11-2012, 8:56 PM

Another vote for the 25 auto.

tankerman

09-11-2012, 8:57 PM

50 AE, 45 GAP, 40 S&W, 357 Sig, 327 Federal.

tankerman

09-11-2012, 8:58 PM

I wonder how many people that vote for 25acp actually know anything about the round or it's uses?

Rorge Retson

09-11-2012, 9:40 PM

I wonder how many people that vote for 25acp actually know anything about the round or it's uses?

Enlighten us.

Mossy Man

09-11-2012, 9:53 PM

.45 winmag

worthless and 10mm is better

tankerman

09-11-2012, 10:36 PM

Enlighten us.

Well for starters it can be loaded subsonic. (if I have to explain that benefit to you, then I'm sorry)

It's similar to 22 lr, but reliable since it's centerfire

It's a known assassin caliber. From what I've read, loaded subsonic and used for contact wounds (pressed up against skull)

Baby Browning and Colt 1908's are extremely concealable and way better than having nothing.

Considering the amount of people that consider the 25 acp "worthless", I bet exactly 100% wouldn't stand in front of one at 7'.
If it's worthless, then what's there to be scared about?

penguinofsleep

09-11-2012, 10:50 PM

+1 more for 45 GAP
maybe 44 special, 41 magnum, and 357 sig. maybe.

I can see potential/existing niche uses for some of the other less common calibers out there, but not so for the 45GAP.

ie
380 - concealment in a smaller frame than 9mm, allowed by the lower pressures it generates if im not mistaken.
32acp - ive seen some competition pistols chambered in 32 wadcutter. not sure how its an improvement over w/e else. probably wouldnt own this myself though.
25acp - reliable 22 size round as mentioned above. probably wouldn't own this either.

357 sig - couldn't someone just use a hot 40 or slow 10mm? although you could reload 9mm bullets into this if im not mistaken?
41 magnum and 44 special - what does these offer that a loaded down 44 magnum doesn't? i would assume if someone needed more than a 357, you need regular 44 magnum. or maybe there are critters out there where 44 mag is too much and 357 is not enough?

9mmrevolver

09-11-2012, 10:59 PM

Gap= get another pistol

Rorge Retson

09-11-2012, 11:15 PM

Well for starters it can be loaded subsonic. (if I have to explain that benefit to you, then I'm sorry)
Way to be condescending to someone asking a legitimate question....wait, that's another thread... :rolleyes:

tankerman

09-11-2012, 11:19 PM

You started that off with your "enlighten us" comment.

Way to be condescending to someone asking a legitimate question....wait, that's another thread... :rolleyes:

Rorge Retson

09-11-2012, 11:40 PM

You started that off with your "enlighten us" comment.

Seriously? I was asking for the benefit of your knowledge. I wasn't 'starting' anything except a conversation.

JeremyS

09-11-2012, 11:47 PM

Well for starters it can be loaded subsonic. (if I have to explain that benefit to you, then I'm sorry)

It's similar to 22 lr, but reliable since it's centerfire

It's a known assassin caliber. From what I've read, loaded subsonic and used for contact wounds (pressed up against skull)
Many loads are available in subsonic flavor, and most of them are better. For example, heavy 9mm is a much better caliber for silent murdering use and, apparently, much much more popular for this purpose as well. If you want to wound somebody or anger them, I suppose .25 has a niche. Heck, if you're pressing something up against somebody's head like in your scenario and silence is such a big priority that you've chosen one of the most anemic rounds ever, I'd feel much more confident with a paring knife or a sharp spoon). I'd truly feel more confident using a .22 LR for self defense than a .25, which I've seen bounce off of a bottle without breaking it. If you need a teeny tiny micro pistol, .380 ACP exists. No reason to use .25, .32, or other calibers that suck even worse.

locosway

09-12-2012, 12:54 AM

I thought this thread was about the .40S&W.

RED VASQUEZ

09-12-2012, 2:05 AM

I've seen .357Sig, 5.7x28 and 9x25 show up so far. What about the other bottleneck round, the 7.62x25tok?

DRAB_81

09-12-2012, 5:28 AM

I thought this thread was about the .40S&W.

I can't believe I overlooked 40S&W for this thread. The 40 is right there with 45GAP for me.

joemoia

09-12-2012, 5:37 AM

41 magnum and 44 special - what does these offer that a loaded down 44 magnum doesn't? i would assume if someone needed more than a 357, you need regular 44 magnum. or maybe there are critters out there where 44 mag is too much and 357 is not enough?

The 44 special pre-dates the 44 magnum by about 50 yrs. Elmer Keith developed the 44 magnum from the 44 special. IIRC Elmer Keith an Bill Jordan developed the 41 magnum for LEOs at a time when most factory bullets available were either RNL or FMJ. A lot of ammo calibers may seem irrelevant today but you can see the reason for their existence when viewed from a historical perspective.

TBH, the 41 mag is the most powerful round I can shoot comfortably with factory loads

tankerman

09-12-2012, 8:16 AM

I can't believe I overlooked 40S&W for this thread. The 40 is right there with 45GAP for me.

I have it in my choices for worthless, several posts back.

HermanH

09-12-2012, 9:42 AM

Good thread... i didn't even think a 25 caliber existed!

In terms of something I will never reload:

45GAP
44 Special
357Sig
40S&W
25
32

I will never ever reload these. I have enough dies as it is.

PS: for those that want to know more about any caliber, just borrow or read through a good reloading manual. I found the Speer manual a really good history read on many calibers I had considered. Some of what I own is purely due to availability of components that drives my decision on a particular firearm. 38 sized bullets are good for both 38 spcl. and 357 mag. and huge number of manufactures backing it. 9mm same deal - far too many manufacturers of the components to ever run out. I did consider 40SW but after reading up on ballistics data, I just don't see the point with what I already have ( 9mm, 38 special, 357 magnum and 45ACP. ) I also have a 44 Magnum, which I could down-size the charge to effectively have a 44 special velocities so having a 44 special brass has no value to me.
A Sig357 was an interesting concept, but having renecking .223 brass for my 7mm TC/U, I've concluded I didn't need yet another set of dies on an unproven wildcat cartridge - at least back then in the 90's.

em9sredbeam

09-12-2012, 9:46 AM

Damnit, Mif Slim beat me to it. I just wanted to see the reaction of people. I am sure a few had heart attacks.

zfields

09-12-2012, 11:04 AM

45 gap.

For all the people posting 357sig, 40sw, 9x25 etc, all are very viable, and often better preforming rounds then the one they were based off / designed for. Just because they arent popular, doesn't mean they dont kick some serious balls.

Wrangler John

09-12-2012, 11:14 AM

What do you guys think is a handgun caliber that really shouldn't exist? Of course each one has stopping power, etc but I mean compared to already existing calibers, what could we do without?

For me, I would have to say the 38 super or 44 special. I mean, why shoot 38 special when 9mm is so available, cheaper and similar stopping power. 44 special because why have any revolver round that is larger than the more powerful 357 magnum and less powerful than the similar sized 44 mag.

The .38 Super or .38 ACP is the same cartridge with a long history: http://www.38super.net/Pages/History.html

It is popular with IPSC competitors and is/was very popular South of the border as .45 ACP and 9mm Luger cartridges (or any firearm in a military chambering) couldn't be owned by civilians (I guess drug cartels are exempt). The .38 ACP is a low pressure load (26,000) driving a 130 grain bullet at 1,035 fps, while the .38 Super Auto +P loading is a high pressure load (36,500 psi) for modern pistols driving a 130 grain bullet at 1,200 fps. The original .38 Super load drove the same bullet at 1,300 fps. In a properly set up 1911 the .38 Super is extremely accurate.

The .44 Special is a grand old cartridge that can be loaded substantially hotter in a large frame modern revolver. It is superbly accurate and better balanced than the .44 Magnum for target loads. As a large bore defense cartridge with modern ammunition it offers a good compromise of power and manageable recoil.

Most proprietary cartridges, those exclusive to a single manufacturer's arms or for a specific sport, are usually a risky proposition. Examples are the .45 GAP and .357 SIG, 9mm (9mmx29) and .45 Winchester Magnums, originally designed to offered in the Wildey Semiautomatic pistol, and the .357 Maximum. Unless adopted by the industry generally, such as the .357 Remington Magnum, .44 Remington Magnum (both developed by S&W and Remington) .204 Ruger, .17 Hornady Rimfire Magnum, they never gain sufficient market share to be widely distributed.

Every cartridge has some kind of niche, whether to keep historical firearms in use or placate some specialized need. There is really no useless cartridges or ones we should favor being abandoned, that is the function of the marketplace.

surplus-addict

09-12-2012, 11:20 AM

When you need the most useless caliber on the planet, and you need it to be expensive:

.45 GAP, no exceptions.

JeremyS

09-12-2012, 11:21 AM

For all the people posting...40sw...all are very viable...Just because they arent popular...I understand why people are putting .40 S&W in here due to how it was developed as a compromise. But... that doesn't make it trivial or useless and I think its status as likely the most popular LE cartridge in the country proves that.

zfields

09-12-2012, 11:48 AM

I understand why people are putting .40 S&W in here due to how it was developed as a compromise. But... that doesn't make it trivial or useless and I think its status as likely the most popular LE cartridge in the country proves that.

Exactly, 357 sig is used quite a bit these days also.

Canucky

09-12-2012, 1:10 PM

For those whom say certain calibers are useless? Times change, technology changes. I have never yet found any firearm caliber I didn't like. I have pocket vest 25's and small 32 cals. Practical hell no. Neat pieces of history yes. Sorry I know little of topic. To the poster... a sharp spoon? or a 25 point blank to the face seriously?

JeremyS

09-12-2012, 1:12 PM

To the poster... a sharp spoon? seriously?
No. Not seriously. Seriously.

I'm super serial, at all times, like Al Gore!

a9wmczxnT3c

m98

09-12-2012, 2:40 PM

.45 GAP was nothing more then Glock wanting a round of thier own, like S&W .40 and SIG.357. But unlike S&W and SIG who designed a very functional and innovated round. Glock failed miserably.

But but but............its 'glock' that made it and everyone knows anything glock is god-like or made by god.

The 44 special pre-dates the 44 magnum by about 50 yrs. Elmer Keith developed the 44 magnum from the 44 special. IIRC Elmer Keith an Bill Jordan developed the 41 magnum for LEOs at a time when most factory bullets available were either RNL or FMJ. A lot of ammo calibers may seem irrelevant today but you can see the reason for their existence when viewed from a historical perspective.

^^^ This

I have it in my choices for worthless, several posts back.

I don't own a 10mm Kurz myself but it's popularity with both civilian & LE would indicate not worthless.

I disagree with a few that were posted, and agree with many others, but I'll toss in one that has not been added yet:

.480 Ruger. Designed to be the "biggest and Baddest" yet it doesn't offer any more power than a 44 mag.
400 grain Hornady custom lists the muzzle velocity as 1275 I think. I bet it's hard to find .44 Magnum with more muzzle energy than that and .480 Ruger can certainly be loaded hotter than that.

But it was never meant to be the biggest and baddest since it was a cut down .475 Linebaugh and .500 Linebaugh Long existed before .480 Ruger.

But, I have no idea what I'm going to do with my .458 SOCOM pistol. I doubt I'll ever get to hunt elephant and whaling is illegal. Does that make it useless or just trivial?

Fishslayer

09-12-2012, 8:01 PM

But, I have no idea what I'm going to do with my .458 SOCOM pistol.

You have my attention. :eek:

Pics?

zfields

09-12-2012, 8:14 PM

400 grain Hornady custom lists the muzzle velocity as 1275 I think. I bet it's hard to find .44 Magnum with more muzzle energy than that and .480 Ruger can certainly be loaded hotter than that.

But it was never meant to be the biggest and baddest since it was a cut down .475 Linebaugh and .500 Linebaugh Long existed before .480 Ruger.

But, I have no idea what I'm going to do with my .458 SOCOM pistol. I doubt I'll ever get to hunt elephant and whaling is illegal. Does that make it useless or just trivial?

Sounds like you should go hog hunting.

Full Clip

09-12-2012, 8:19 PM

But but but............its 'glock' that made it and everyone knows anything glock is god-like or made by god.

Actually it's Glod, not god.

Cuda440

09-12-2012, 8:25 PM

400 grain Hornady custom lists the muzzle velocity as 1275 I think. I bet it's hard to find .44 Magnum with more muzzle energy than that and .480 Ruger can certainly be loaded hotter than that.

.480 ruger normally puts out between 1000 to 1400 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. The 44mag is commonly 900-1200 ft-lbs, but you can buy it as high as 1600 ft-lbs.

For the same price as 480, you can buy 454 Casull ammo that runs up to 1800 ft-lbs or 460 S&W that is available up to 2800 ft-lbs.

.480 ruger normally puts out between 1000 to 1400 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. The 44mag is commonly 900-1200 ft-lbs, but you can buy it as high as 1600 ft-lbs.

For the same price as 480, you can buy 454 Casull ammo that runs up to 1800 ft-lbs or 460 S&W that is available up to 2800 ft-lbs.

It just seemed like 480 brings nothing new to the table, IMO

wash

09-12-2012, 9:12 PM

Well it has a bigger bore than .44 or .454 and the recoil is not as snappy as .454.

Small distinctions but real all the same.

I have a BFR in .475 Linebaugh and like shooting it better than the .454s I've shot. I kind of wish .500 JRH had been around when I bought mine because it seems like the same thing except just a little bit better.

Many loads are available in subsonic flavor, and most of them are better. For example, heavy 9mm is a much better caliber for silent murdering use and, apparently, much much more popular for this purpose as well. If you want to wound somebody or anger them, I suppose .25 has a niche. Heck, if you're pressing something up against somebody's head like in your scenario and silence is such a big priority that you've chosen one of the most anemic rounds ever, I'd feel much more confident with a paring knife or a sharp spoon). I'd truly feel more confident using a .22 LR for self defense than a .25, which I've seen bounce off of a bottle without breaking it. If you need a teeny tiny micro pistol, .380 ACP exists. No reason to use .25, .32, or other calibers that suck even worse.

Great and a 45/70 derringer will do better than all of them....so what's your point.....that you think you've got every single useful caliber sorted out and that everyone should follow your aura of intelligence and toss out all calibers you don't approve of?

The fact that you'd choose an unreliable rimfire over centerfire, tells me all I need to know about your (lack of) expertise.

orangeusa

09-12-2012, 9:49 PM

Back to OP - I had a 25ACP mousegun, nothing wrong with the round, but damn that gun was a POS. jam-o-matic.

I have a .32 S&W Long revolver that I would trust my life and families life to. Not my first pic, but if my first available gun, no problems.

Great and a 45/70 derringer will do better than all of them....so what's your point.....that you think you've got every single useful caliber sorted out and that everyone should follow your aura of intelligence and toss out all calibers you don't approve of?

The fact that you'd choose an unreliable rimfire over centerfire, tells me all I need to know about your (lack of) expertise.

tankerman

09-12-2012, 9:50 PM

Well it has a bigger bore than .44 or .454 and the recoil is not as snappy as .454.

I own three 454's and have shot them for a decade. snappy 454's are the result of shooting light bullets.

454 shines in the +400 grain range.

.45 ftw!

09-12-2012, 10:14 PM

I still say 9x25 Dillon. I know it " kicks balls" :thumbsup::. But IMO it's a round we could do without. You can't even actually buy a production gun chambered for it. With 357sig or 45 gap, at least you can go into a shop and buy something that shoots it. I have a G29, I know all about all the available conversion bbls, hence I know the 9x25 is a freaking flame-thrower, but that doesn't mean it's a necessary cartridge. No offense to the two people in this thread that shoot it :)

wash

09-12-2012, 10:25 PM

After a single search, I've read that 350 grains is the practical maximum for .454. That's heavier than I thought (maybe a little over 300) but still quite a bit less than 400 grains.

You might be right, 350 might be right but the 250-270 grain stuff is quite snappy.

.475 Linebaugh and .480 Ruger have quite stout recoil but it's more of a push.

405 grains of .458 in an AR pistol gives me about 30 degrees of muzzle rise and some hot spots in my palm with that A2 grip.

I need to chronograph it but I think it might hit 1,500+ fps.

fullrearview

09-12-2012, 11:37 PM

I don't think any are useless. What you can shot, another might not be able to.

phrogg111

09-13-2012, 12:22 AM

.25acp: useless.

.45 G.A.P.: completely useless, glocks were already chambered in .45 ACP, and they made a round that tried to fix a problem that didn't exist.

.327 magnum: Why wouldn't you just shoot .357? There's not that much recoil to a full power .357, why not just practice a little more instead of buying another caliber that tries to fix a problem that doesn't exist?

.357 Sig: It's as good as or better +P+ 9mm, somewhat available, and if you get a Glock chambered in it, you can put a .40 S&W or 9mm barrel into your gun for cheap practice. I'd trust .357 sig over .40S&W.

.40 S&W: Stupid. Why get a round with more snap than .45ACP, less power, barely more power than 9mm +P (pretty much the same thing), and then pay more for it? The only gun I will ever buy that will shoot .40 S&W is a 10mm revolver, because I know moon clips are absolutely epic (i can get 12 shots out of my 6-shooter S&W 625 in under 5 seconds).

.500 S&W: Funnest round ever. Can't hit **** without a couple hundred bucks of practice ammo, lmao. Only need about 2 or 3 rounds in a day to put a smile on my face and keep it on my face for the whole day shooting at the range.

.500 S&W Special: It's hotter loaded than some of the .500 S&W Magnum rounds that I've shot. Literally, they designed a gun for .500 magnum, then made the .500 special just to say that it's a magnum cartridge. We know it's a magnum cartridge, guys - you don't need to prove it to us by making a non-magnum. The .500 S&W magnum has got 2,600 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. It launches a 500 grain bullet - that's more than an ounce of lead - at more than the speed of sound. That's more power than my Mosin Nagant... In a handgun!

JeremyS

09-13-2012, 10:32 AM

Great and a 45/70 derringer will do better than all of them....so what's your point.....Ummm.... your point was that .25 is good because it can be loaded subsonic and suppressed for "assassins." My point was that, while you are right that .25 can be used that way, there are many many other choices that fit that same requirement but are much more effective and apparently significantly more popular for that specific purpose. A 45/70 derringer has no relevance at all whatsoever to what you said or to my comments on what you said. In a discussion on what makes a handgun caliber "trivial," I would say that being eclipsed by other calibers in every possible way (from function to price) can certainly be a good indication for "trivial" status.

Look... uh... it can still be a good round and be "trivial." Plenty of really good rounds have been mentioned in this thread. Maybe back in the day .25 ACP served a real purpose and filled a niche where it was needed. Today, if you choose it over other rounds that do the same thing but do it better, then you have made a trivial choice based on trivial factors. That is all.

The fact that you'd choose an unreliable rimfire over centerfire...Specifically the choice between .22 LR and .25 ACP, I would choose the .22. I know the general consensus is that centerfire ignites more reliably and I don't really argue that. I've had plenty of bum primers in factory loaded centerfire ammo though. I've also had a couple of .22 LR duds. While I obviously wouldn't choose either for SD/HD, I'd absolutely feel more confident with a .22 LR revolver than a .25 auto, BOTH for reliability and for stopping power, and I'd be surprised if most people didn't feel the same. As stated by orangeusa, the small .25's are not known for cycling reliably. In fact, I thought I'd find a YouTube video of the crappy penetration of the round and the very first video I clicked on showed multiple FTF's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk-sfohFydg

Cali-Shooter

09-13-2012, 11:08 AM

.25 ACP and .380 had their time and purpose in history, but are now anything but obsolete.

Well, the .25 ACP more so, since .22 LR beats the tar out of it in practically everything except the fact .25 is centerfire and .25 has some firearms that don't exist in any other caliber.

winnre

09-13-2012, 4:50 PM

I have a .25 only because my wife likes the grips on the gun. The ammo costs about as much as .44 mag ammo!

zfields

09-13-2012, 5:21 PM

.25 ACP and .380 had their time and purpose in history, but are now anything but obsolete.

Well, the .25 ACP more so, since .22 LR beats the tar out of it in practically everything except the fact .25 is centerfire and .25 has some firearms that don't exist in any other caliber.

380 has made a huge comeback.

JeremyS

09-20-2012, 3:30 PM

I wonder how many people that vote for 25acp actually know anything about the round or it's uses?

Cool old video I just stumbled upon (P.S. .25 still sucks and sucked back then, too :p ):

VuO34MDezzU

Cali-Shooter

09-20-2012, 3:37 PM

380 has made a huge comeback.

9 mm is better, but to those that don't mind the price to stopping power disparity of .380 vs. 9mm, in addition to the cheaper than both 9x18mm, .380 has a 'modern' place as a CCW/backup gun caliber I suppose imo.

Still wouldn't go for a lower caliber than 9mm for even a BUG though, personally.

9 mm is better, but to those that don't mind the price to stopping power disparity of .380 vs. 9mm, in addition to the cheaper than both 9x18mm, .380 has a 'modern' place as a CCW/backup gun caliber I suppose imo.

Still wouldn't go for a lower caliber than 9mm for even a BUG though, personally.

I never said 9mm was worse. 380's are generally smaller, pocket style guns. You know, the size of guns people will carry more often. To me, cost of ammo means jack shiyt when it comes to something that will be defending my life.

And you know what they say, a XXX (insert whatever "lame" caliber here) in your hand, is better then YYY (insert manly caliber here) in your safe.

deadcoyote

09-20-2012, 4:03 PM

That's not the fault of the cartridge, though.

Most of the historically older cartridges mentioned all had their uses back in the day, but what baffles me are new cartridges that get introduced that don't seem to fill a gap or need. .45GAP was doomed to die because few people ever complained about the excessive length of a .45ACP - just the excessive length of Glock pistols in that caliber. Glock quickly remedied that with their SF models.

.327 Magnum seems like a solution looking for a problem. Plenty of small, concealable guns can be had in .357. A .327 revolver does what - add ONE more round of capacity? You're still trading off the time-proven effectiveness of .357 versus the smaller, lighter .327. Akin to trading a 9mm for a 7.65 Browning.

Personally, too - I never quite understood the appeal of gigantic handgun calibers like .454 Casull, .480 Ruger and .500S&W. I guess it's kind of cool to be the kid on the block with the biggest, baddest gun, and I understand that some people enjoy the challenge of handgun hunting - but as a practical use gun, if you were using it as bear protection, why not just carry a short rifle or a slug shotgun instead? More power with approximately the same encumbrance.

You and I agree on the monster handgun concept. I have a friend that keeps a 629 with a 10" barrel and a scope on his quad for predator control on his ranch. It baffles me. Just buy a 30-30 carbine and be done with it.

JeremyS

09-20-2012, 4:06 PM

4.2mm caliber... made of 23carrat gold with traces of nickel.

http://followthelemur.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/mp_golden-bullet_movie2.jpg
Gold weighs almost twice as much as lead. If we could afford it, we'd probably all be shooting solid gold hollowpoints :cool:

If you're about to look it up: a cubic centimeter of lead weighs 11.34 grams, and a cc of solid gold is 19.3 grams. It's very dense.

wash

09-20-2012, 4:14 PM

.327 magnum: Why wouldn't you just shoot .357? There's not that much recoil to a full power .357, why not just practice a little more instead of buying another caliber that tries to fix a problem that doesn't exist?

I've been reading up on this one and it has a definite performance niche.

It improves upon the ballistics of the 7.62*25 in a quite small revolver package. Similar velocity with heavier modern hollow point bullets.

It's a compelling alternative to carrying a Tokarev or CZ52.

I know I wouldn't trust a Kevlar vest to stop one.

PEZHEAD265

09-20-2012, 7:57 PM

7.62x38r Nagant is pretty useless, due mainly to the fact that there was really only one handgun ever made to fire the round. Sure, the gas seal was a novel idea that allegedly bumped the round's velocity by 75 fps but it was still outmatched by the .32 H&R Magnum, which was available before the 7.62 Nagant was invented. Plus, if you happen to have an 1895 Nagant revolver, you don't even need the right ammo to use it! They fire fine with .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, and even .32 H&R Magnum if you want to push things a touch. So... pretty useless cartridge!

The 7.62 nagant was out a 100 years before the 32 H&R mag was made.

Plisk

09-20-2012, 8:14 PM

I feel there too much ignorance in this thread to attempt to determine a truly useless handgun caliber.

I do not feel that .45 GAP is a useless cartridge, I feel it is a very special circumstantial solution to a limited problem. Many people assume details about the ballistics of the caliber, but do not research it. .45 GAP uses the same powder load, projectile, and primer(yes some ACP uses small pistol primer) as .45 ACP it only has a shorter shell casing. You can make GAP brass from ACP brass. Glock did not "just invent it to have their own round" they found a need and attempted to fill it. The round was created after the 21 series was released, so that they could fit a full power .45 cartridge into their already existing small frame package, so they could maintain a smaller package for those who uses the existing small frames.. Well, we now see that the cartridge would not outshine ACP cartridge so the 21 and 20 series flourished still. It still gives those with smaller then average hands the ability to utilize a full power .45 round in a more ergonomic platform to their specific needs. I don't consider it trivial at all. When looked at under modern light, with the massive abundance of .45 ACP platforms, yes it could be seen as trivial, but at the time it was attempting something very cool, it just didn't work out as intended.

This similar concept is the reason many other cartridges exist, 7.62x40WC, .327 MAG, .300 Blackout(and all it's similar brothers), .416 Barret, and .408 Cheytec for example came out of a specific need. The .327 MAG round was designed to attempt to maintain as close to the ballistic results as the .357 but the ability to hold all 6 rounds in a compact frame. Great concept, smaller gun, more rounds, similar if not identical ability. Couldn't outshine the established cartridge.

.40 S&W also was not a cartridge that was "just made by the company to have their own", the .40 S&W is a cut down 10mm plain and simple. Back in the day, the FBI and a few other alphabet agencies were beginning to adopt the 10mm cartridge for their Special Agents. Enough of the Agents could (females were a decent %) could not properly utilize that cartridge so they branched out to help create a cartridge that would meet their needs. Smith & Wesson came up with the .40 S&W, they chopped down the round. That is why so many Law Enforcement agencies go do heavily into that cartridge, it became so well established in Law Enforcement because it literally was created for the FBI! Sig Sauer then adapted off that extremely well used round and created their cartridge, and guess what a majority of Federal Agencies (especially the publicly known ones) now issue it.

As far as the rest, it would be difficult to find a truly useless caliber, as at one point in time or to that certain person it serves or has served a purpose in some capacity. A truly useless round would be something that is not useful in any application. Even .25 AUTO has its purpose, for those who needed to carry a mini caliber but didn't trust rimfire. It's basically a .22 LR that's now centerfire. In today's climate, we do not view defense shooting as wounding and fleeing. Our doctrine today is engaging and following that threat all the way to the ground until he is unable to prove any further threat. Micro calibers do not serve a purpose in our modern mindset, but it did at one point.

dtelston

09-20-2012, 8:20 PM

.45 GAP and (hold your breath) .380

JeremyS

09-20-2012, 8:54 PM

The 7.62 nagant was out a 100 years before the 32 H&R mag was made.
Hmm, right you are! Apparently I confused 1882 and 1982 haha. For some reason I thought .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, and .32 H&R Mag came out in pretty close succession. Well... I was only a century off on the Mag part of that :p

Micro calibers do not serve a purpose in our modern mindset, but it did at one point.I agree with everything you said. BUT... in the context of this thread, I think a round qualifies as being trivial when you describe it like that. Sure, they basically all had a purpose when they were invented. But we aren't living when they were invented. If they don't currently make much sense to choose, whether it is due to better options existing now or no guns that actually chamber the round anymore, etc etc etc, then the round is now trivial. I wouldn't personally call any of them useless (unless there actually is a round that just isn't capable of being shot out of any gun, current or antique, then it has no use but as decoration and for historical edification), but trivial? Sure.

Can I just add stuff like 4 gauge shotgun to this discussion? .32-20 is fairly trivial at this point, being a historical cowboy round that that is a bit weird due to the necked cartridge and is surpassed in performance by many other choices. Currently choosing to purchase a gun in this round would be odd (trivial, even!), as it is more expensive than many other rounds of in its general category and isn't manufactured by many companies.

pyromensch

09-20-2012, 9:13 PM

What do you guys think is a handgun caliber that really shouldn't exist? Of course each one has stopping power, etc but I mean compared to already existing calibers, what could we do without?

For me, I would have to say the 38 super or 44 special. I mean, why shoot 38 special when 9mm is so available, cheaper and similar stopping power. 44 special because why have any revolver round that is larger than the more powerful 357 magnum and less powerful than the similar sized 44 mag.

well, 44 spl, in my charter arms bulldog, is quite impressive. and comes in a 38spl-ish, sized package. you might have picked something like 25acp

pyromensch

09-20-2012, 9:16 PM

327 mag...why?

this...
why make a caliber, that can shoot an older, less available caliber, as well as this newer caliber. when you have 357 mag, that shoots the abundant 38spl.
just a bad idea.

pyromensch

09-20-2012, 9:24 PM

Well for starters it can be loaded subsonic. (if I have to explain that benefit to you, then I'm sorry)

It's similar to 22 lr, but reliable since it's centerfire

It's a known assassin caliber. From what I've read, loaded subsonic and used for contact wounds (pressed up against skull)

Baby Browning and Colt 1908's are extremely concealable and way better than having nothing.

Considering the amount of people that consider the 25 acp "worthless", I bet exactly 100% wouldn't stand in front of one at 7'.
If it's worthless, then what's there to be scared about?
and i believe that the 25 auto, is "sub-sonic" anyway.

i don't want to stand in front of a pellet gun, either....cause it would hurt. and i'll bet 100% wouldn't do that either.

wash

09-20-2012, 9:31 PM

If I was really really pissed off and someone deserved a beat down, I'm about 1,000 times more likely to give it to them if I know they've got a .25 ACP instead of something 9mm or greater.

Just sayin'...

JeremyS

09-20-2012, 9:38 PM

H&K 4.6x30mm

Any caliber clearly eclipsed by the 5.7x28 is trivial as all getup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_4.6%C3%9730mm

Gabriel80

09-20-2012, 10:32 PM

.25 auto

Eat Dirt

09-20-2012, 10:40 PM

When you need the most useless caliber on the planet, :

.45 GAP, no exceptions.

Heck ... Even Turners Sporting Goods can't get rid of the > 45 Gap pistols on their specials

PEZHEAD265

09-21-2012, 6:43 AM

this...
why make a caliber, that can shoot an older, less available caliber, as well as this newer caliber. when you have 357 mag, that shoots the abundant 38spl.
just a bad idea.

The 327 mag can shoot 32S&W short,32 S&W,32 H&R mag and 327.The reason why it's not popular is there isn't a long gun to match it.It allows the power of a 38 or a 357 mag in a small frame revolver having 6 shots instead of 5.Great cartridge and if they ever made a lever gun for it it would take off.

Plisk

09-21-2012, 10:42 AM

I agree with everything you said. BUT... in the context of this thread, I think a round qualifies as being trivial when you describe it like that. Sure, they basically all had a purpose when they were invented. But we aren't living when they were invented. If they don't currently make much sense to choose, whether it is due to better options existing now or no guns that actually chamber the round anymore, etc etc etc, then the round is now trivial. I wouldn't personally call any of them useless (unless there actually is a round that just isn't capable of being shot out of any gun, current or antique, then it has no use but as decoration and for historical edification), but trivial? Sure.

I'm right there with you, I agree there are established calibers that serve no purpose in todays world, I wanted to put that thought out there with everybody in this thread labeling so many calibers as useless when it didn't seem that they were taking any history into account. It felt like useful calibers were being chastised just because Walmart doesn't sell it, kind of thinking. It's easy to just know what is happening right now and make a decision, but I wanted to shine a little light as to why we're where we're at.

RedFord150

09-21-2012, 1:48 PM

I feel there too much ignorance in this thread to attempt to determine a truly useless handgun caliber.

...As far as the rest, it would be difficult to find a truly useless caliber, as at one point in time or to that certain person it serves or has served a purpose in some capacity. ....

^^^^ This was a great response to this thread.
We also forget about how other countries restrict guns or what calibers are readily available.
I believe .38 Super was invented because Mexico would not allow civilians to purchase same caliber as Military issued.
I am told .380 is very popular in some South American countries.
Europeans seem to have access to smaller calibers, not so much .45 acp and .357 mag.
Maybe someone with more knowledge than myself can say why Calibers readily available in the US are not easily obtained in other countries.

wash

09-21-2012, 7:16 PM

In Europe the militaries and police forces seemed to love handguns less deadly than a bayonet. Then most countries banned civilian ownership of military caliber firearms.

Or else it's just a continent of girlie-men.

I'm not sure which and don't really care.

wash

09-21-2012, 7:18 PM

They also love automatics that are slower to reload than a bullet button AR.

pyromensch

09-21-2012, 8:50 PM

The 327 mag can shoot 32S&W short,32 S&W,32 H&R mag and 327.The reason why it's not popular is there isn't a long gun to match it.It allows the power of a 38 or a 357 mag in a small frame revolver having 6 shots instead of 5.Great cartridge and if they ever made a lever gun for it it would take off.

except...that the availability, of ammo, and/or brass, is far outweighed, by that of 38spl/357mag

dougd1015

09-22-2012, 6:24 AM

Yeah I have to agree Glock GAP.

kaboom

09-22-2012, 8:43 AM

Not nearly as much hate for the 5.7 x 28 as I was expecting.

My vote is .25acp. A couple of friends and I were shooting his at an old car with one back when I was a teenager. very few of the rounds we shot would penetrate the windshield and several bounced off without even cracking the glass. This was at 10 yards maximum. Subsonic indeed!

JeremyS

09-27-2012, 8:37 AM

Funny article I just stumbled upon RE .45 GAP: http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/closing-the-pocketpistol-gap

Over the years, I've seen lots of rifle and handgun cartridges come and go. There were some that were obvious flashes in the pan and others that became real staples. On a good number of occasions I have actually been able to winnow out the wheat from the chaff and predict the demise of some nonstarters. Now, I realize that it's really easy to make these claims in retrospect, so I'm going to stick my neck out and make a prognostication on the positive side The new .45 GAP cartridge is going to be a solid contender--one with real legs.