Joint locks in the real world?

My background is in Muay Thai and boxing, but I've been curious about certain aspects of Korean arts with joint-locking, like Hapkido or Kuk Sool. Some friends of mine who used to train in similar styles (can't keep track of all the goofy spin-offs) like that have shown me some cool wrist and elbow locks that well, just plain work. They're painful and can be damaging, hard to escape from just using muscle, and difficult to counter with strikes if they're doing it from the correct angle. So from a purely mechanical perspective they are very effective.

What's lacking, it seems, is a realistic way to actually set this up on an opponent (like myself) who moves in and out quickly and doesn't allow his limbs to be grabbed. But I think there's got to be some way to incorporate or train these in a more... competitive or alive setting, right? Has anyone tried doing any locks from overhooks or the clinch, or maybe even after slipping a sloppy punch? I suppose I could just try in sparring, but if it failed I'd look like an idiot, and if it worked someone would probably get annoyed.

The most obvious application, the only one I've seen, was not in a ring fight or even against a competent opponent, but against some aggressive drunk grabbing another guy in a bar. It was that hold where the lockee's elbow is facing upward, and the locker tucks the elbow into his armpit and simply puts weight on it. It worked but I didn't see any followthrough because the bouncer showed up within seconds and made the "attacker" (it was all pretty mild) leave.

Hey, I can see why that would be useful, and there's less risk of jail or lawsuits with a compliance hold compared to knocking someone out (potential risk of death, if there's concrete or brick flooring or if alcohol is involved) or crippling someone's knees with low kicks.

But other than that kind of scenario, is there anything worthwhile in standing joint-locks? Against a highly trained fighter it seems like a high-risk/low-reward endeavor compared to striking and takedowns, and it's never been done to my knowledge in pro MMA, but then again neither had jumping front kicks, wall kicks or spinning hook kicks until relatively recently... And Chonan's flying scissor heelhook makes me think just about anything can work 0.000001% of the time ;) .

Not sure if it officially exists or not, but I've had success at the workplace with standing Kimuras.

Once you're cranking that arm up behind the guy (he's either facing you or he's side-on, or--more commonly--some position in between), you get compliance.

If he tries anything interesting--such as hitting you with his other arm--just add a little more upward-and-backward pressure on the arm you're controlling; the fight then goes out of him pretty quickly.

It was that hold where the lockee's elbow is facing upward, and the locker tucks the elbow into his armpit and simply puts weight on it. It worked but I didn't see any followthrough because the bouncer showed up within seconds and made the "attacker" (it was all pretty mild) leave.

That's called waki gatame. Here's Shinya Aoki showing how he does it:

If you browse around there's a vid of him breaking an arm with the exact technique.

Thanks Permalost, that's exactly the one. It makes sense that waki gatame (glad to know the name!) is in just about every martial art with locks and police/bouncer training course since it's harder to slip out of (or punch back against) .

It sounds more theatrical than practical, but the guy who demonstrated that to me said you could get to the locked position and then just drop to the ground (horizontally in the air, WWE style), putting all of your weight on the joint. I guess it would work to annihilate the elbow, but it seems risky (his arm might slip out) and more than a little evil, especially if the poor guy is already tapping...

If you browse around there's a vid of him breaking an arm with the exact technique.

we do waki gatame often in my traditional jujutsu class (shut up, i enjoy it, it's a nice addition to my judo) and when people say "you have to be careful with this one it's easy to break the arm" i say "i know, i have video of it breaking an arm in MMA, want to see it?"

no one ever wants to see it. :(

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Joint locks are more easily applied in ground work. Even in Judo contests (no striking) standing elbow locks (the only ones allowed) are VERY rare. They usually have to be applied very hard and fast (in Judo at least) to have any chance of success.

To have any chance of success, you are going to have to do a lot of training in joint locks. Your best chance for that will be BJJ or Judo, where you will learn them in groundwork first, if you ever practice them standing...not many people do.

But you will learn good mechanics, which you can further apply to standing applications.

And listen to the guys/gals who are bouncers or LEO. They will have a better perspective on applications.

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A couple of LEOs in my old Aikido school said they'd gotten some use out of simple straight armbars and wristlocks, but they were used on untrained suspects that they were trying not to injure. I wouldn't take chances trying a standing joint lock on a good fighter who's not already hurt.

If you can get a standing lock "that works", it'll usually lead directly into a grounded version of the same lock, where you can increase the control by using bodyweight to pin. Otherwise, there's enough wiggle room to struggle and move (or try to strike). So, a ground submission could actually be the successful end to a standing lock.

One of my issues with applying standing locks is the issue that you're usually using both hands and a large amount of focus to attack one of their joints, giving them three limbs to counter your mentally occupied self.

One of my issues with applying standing locks is the issue that you're usually using both hands and a large amount of focus to attack one of their joints, giving them three limbs to counter your mentally occupied self.

They don't work if you don't take their balance first thing at the moment of contact, giving them something else to think about.