Numerous posts were started on the eplaya regarding a website called www.stopburningman.org. Those posters were asked to limit their posts on this subject to one thread. This is the thread they have chosen to post in.

One of the major contentions of Stopburningman.org seems to be Buring Man LLC's actions at Frog Pond.

Badger on Frog Pond:

I knew at some point this one would rear its ugly little head.

Several folks/groups opposed to the event on the playa have often used this very same straw man argument to frame the Project as wildly irresponsible, wreckless razers of pristine ecosystems.

FACT: Frog pond which is a small artesian well (once a perched water table) located to the south of the Lahanton lake bed/playa very near the train tracks, is not a natural site of any biological significance other than the occasional bird, antelope, rabbit or the large non-native species of bullfrog which were introduced to the area. Frog pond was drilled (bored) out many decades ago by some forgotten entrepreneur who realized that the water table at that end of the playa was relatively close to the surface compared to other occurrances of water around the entire basin/graben (go look that word up - it's a fave of mine) and decided to build there using the drilled well as a source of water. In short, the pool is man made and NOT an naturally occurring geological phenomenon. Suggesting that modification of a constructed area that has pleasing recreational value or perceived biological significance is moot. It's not unlike suggesting that tearing down or modifying a barn is destroying a natural and significant site just because a few bats happened to take advantage of the inner roof of the structure.

I'll concede that the alteration of the site due to backhoeing(sp?) the area for water has made an impact and that it doesn't look like it once did but to suggest as our ill-informed troll has that the alteration(s) are paramount to wreckless destruction of the area is a leap of reason and a distortion of facts. In short, truth is suffering here folks.

Expect further twisted missives based on the same flawed logic and distortion of facts to follow.

For anyone interested, I have a somewhat bulging collection of books, articles, papers and abstracts culled primarily from Stanford University's Mitchell Earth Sciences library collected from over eight years of general study of the Lahanton/Carson sink region of the western Basin and Range provence. Cites and topical titles available on request however, I'm convinced that even this source of info won't placate our little buffoon.

It would also appear that the people behind the Stopburningman.com site are really more concerned about using the playa for their own interests than anything else

That set of photos from August, 1997 look interesting, especially pic6. Is that you/your car?

If that is you, do you and your associates still like to visit the Black Rock Desert with your vehicles (probably different ones now) and enjoy it as depicted in these photos? If so, do you like to go in August, when the bulk of site preparations for Burning Man and/or the actual event are taking place?

Let me please be clear that this is not an attack on you nor a judgement about the appropriateness of the behavior depicted in the photos. Just a few queries to help clarify for myself and others how it is that you enjoy the Black Rock Desert and how that might be conflicting with its use by others, including the BMORG and the Burning Man event.

Technopatra wrote:

It is also interesting to note that on the site with the car pic in the desert, comments are credited to "Rodney Sparks" - another user who showed up on the eplaya in the past couple days supporting the crossposted threads.

So I guess the questions remain the same (and have been asked by numerous others, I haven't seen a response, but hopefully with this one thread the responses will be easier to find).

1. What is your goal? What would you like to see happen? Is there a solution to any of the problems you have submitted for our review?

2. Are you or any members of your group a residents of the area? If not, then what is your stake in the area? How do you use the area recreationally and how does the festival affect your recreational use of the area?

What's interesting is that first, Rex no longer owns a Neon. Actually, only one person among 14 or 15 of us owns a Neon. I no longer own a Neon either. That's how we came to first find and love the place. But, that was quite some time ago and interests change.

What's even MORE interesting is that if people would look at the web site, you would see that an environmental study might limit things like high speed driving on the playa if it was found to impact the ecosystem. We are all prepared to live with the outcome of such a study, even if that means we are unable to do some of the things we used to do.

We'd rather know if the usage is reasonable or unreasonable, environmentally sound or unsound, and then play by the same rules and guidelines as everyone else. That seems inherently equitable and fair.

That information showed up on the WHOIS info I had my friend e-mail me from Budapest, it is getting out. Thank you for getting that info updated and for consolidating the threads into one place so we can have a spirited debate that engages the full community. At least now I don't have to tap into my friends inside ICANN and I can save my favors they owe me for other things.

And if anyone can find a solution to the 447 trash problem short of putting another item on the ORG's plate, I wish them well. I will still raise an eyebrow on the VOC / particulate control issue from the water trucks but the rest of the discussion has kept me very interested. Good luck to you and thanks again for listening to the community who wants to participate in your efforts.

I passed a couch on my way out on the morning after the burn. A half a mile or so down 447. I was upset it was there and pissed I wasn't able to do something. I was packed to the brim with trash. I will say there is always something more you can do about these problems. However, 30,000 people you can only expect a couple of shit heads. I hope someone picked up the sofa! This might only give credit to the trolls, but I did want to post it. I'm a 25 year old living in colorado. I have seen and been to meny events here. And I have never been to a place that was so conscious of it's enviormental impact. Anyway parties here leave a foot of trash and thats over night. I was in charge of clean up for some of the local pomoters in town. One event I spent 2 weeks cleaning up dicarded flyers and water bottels. Wirlwinds pushed trash up I-70 for miles. Field mice turned flyer into confety. Out of the 24 people that attended the show for free and promised to help in clean up, 4 showed in the morning. I didn't get the deposit back on the property. And I lost 1400 $. It was a true catastrophe.

To meny shit heads in Colorado. oh well!

Last edited by enthropic on Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

First off, the BANEON site hasn't been updated in a few years. The club mainly exists today as a mailing list... we only get together about once a year. The trip to Black Rock was associated with the Neon club until about 1999, I'd say. After that, it has only been taken by people within that group that were interested in camping at Black Rock, and there are only a few of us who go out there that still have Neons.

Secondly, we're not 'college boys'. None of us go to college anymore, and I'm the only one who has attended college within the past 5 years. How is this relevant or constructive?

I have never hidden my identity on this site, because I feel that I have personally taken a moderate approach to this whole thing, and I have nothing to hide. The ONLY things I'm after here are for people to a) look at the evidence we have in the form of written documents (and some admittedly weak photos), b) judge for yourself if there is a reason to doubt that the environmental concerns are being adequately addressed (cleanup standards, impact to the local hot springs), and c) maybe propose some solution to the situation at hand, whatever that situation might be. We, as a group, propose further investigation. Be it an EIR (evil, I know), or just an in-depth UNR grad student research project, we feel that more knowledge needs to be gained about the impact of recreational activities in general at Black Rock, and for obvious reasons, Burning Man is definitely the most siginificant of those recreational activities. Like I've said before, I like the idea of Burning Man... I'd probably attend if I could bring myself to shell out the money for tickets for my wife and I. The last thing I'm trying to do is to be a troll.

I think I've said everything I want to say... Ill feelings were DEFINITELY not on my agenda, although some were expected in the process of achieving the goals I've mentioned above. If anyone wants to discuss this at greater length, I'm open to it, but I'm not going to preach anymore... I'd just be repeating what I've already said. I'm going to concentrate on finding more facts, whether they prove or disprove our theories.

The ONLY things I'm after here are for people to a) look at the evidence we have in the form of written documents (and some admittedly weak photos), b) judge for yourself if there is a reason to doubt that the environmental concerns are being adequately addressed (cleanup standards, impact to the local hot springs), and c) maybe propose some solution to the situation at hand, whatever that situation might be

Can you see that the fact that your were racing cars out there on the playa in August, the time when people go out to prepare for the event, makes your intentions highly suspect? That is some context for envrinomentalism. Maybe it wouldn't have been if you all hadn't witheld it.

And your url is just icky and creepy. It is difficult to see you guys as having any honest intentions. Really, I mean that honestly.

Can you see that the fact that your were racing cars out there on the playa in August, the time when people go out to prepare for the event, makes your intentions highly suspect? That is some context for envrinomentalism. Maybe it wouldn't have been if you all hadn't witheld it.

And your url is just icky and creepy. It is difficult to see you guys as having any honest intentions. Really, I mean that honestly.

Does it matter that those pictures of us racing on the playa were taken back in 1999 or so, long before I had a clue that any life existed out there? Actually, I don't think anyone in our group was really aware at that point. Incidentally, I personally have never driven my Neon on the playa... it's never even been to Black Rock before. I do admit, however, that at the time that picture was taken, I didn't object to racing around out there. And when did we withhold anything? I know that I never made any effort to withhold anything... Besides, why is something that happened 5 years ago relevant to the point where we'd even *think* of mentioning it?

I think that the issue here is you keep saying that the Burning Man organization is being hypocritical, and that their actions should match their words.

Problem is, you and Rex appear to be twice the hypocrites. Burning Man is actually a prime example of an event taking responsibility for their environment. If you compare the damage done at pretty much any other self-sustaining gathering of 30k people, including Rainbow Gatherings and the Oregon Country Fair, you will find BM does the job far better. It's not even in the same ballpark.

The Eplayans can only judge your sincerity from your words and your website.

You first appear to have gotten a bug up your ass against the BMORG based up your insulting behavior (yes, fucking insulting- read "You people are blind. You people disgust me. You have been traitors to your own planet, your own HOME." on your Website) and semi-psychotic, misspelled ranting.

Then you started acting like you are legitimately concerned. You claimed that the many "new users" that came out of the woodwork are not the same person while starting a half dozen threads to spam the board.

Then created a Website with a decidedly biased viewpoint.

Then we come to find out your "intense concern for the macro biological life" is evident in the care you shown RUNNING IT OVER. We find out that no, you aren't sock puppets (at least two of you), and instead are CLOSE FRIENDS (there's an unbiased 3rd party viewpoint).

You now have the appearance of spoiled, drunken, frat boys that want to prove some kind of point to assuage your egos.

In all honesty, I lived in the desert for 12 years. I grew up next to dry lake beds, so I'm not really on the ecological bandwagon here. Never said I was. I simply pointed out to you folks that you were making enemies and acting like illogical putzes. Once you started acting like more like rational, logical beings- I started trying to give less biased feedback.

Now that you've shown your true colors, I think I'm pretty much done with checking your site out. I don't need to be a bullet item on your resume for "cleaning up" Burning Man.

Just out of curiousity, what theme camp were you guys part of? If any?

enthropic wrote:I passed a couch on my way out on the morning after the burn. A half a mile or so down 447. I was upset it was there and pissed I wasn't able to do something. I was packed to the brim with trash. I will say there is always something more you can do about these problems. However, 30,000 people you can only expect a couple of shit heads. I hope someone picked up the sofa!

Thank you for bringing that up. By the way, calling us "trolls" damages the credibility of the eplaya folks as well.

Every one of you can agree that there is a lot of trash left on 447 (and other roads) after the event. The trash would not be there if the event did not occur.
I have suggested that BMORG do a little more than they currently do (which is absolutely nothing) about the Hwy 447 trash problem.
Does Nevada have an "Adopt a Highway" program? Would it really be difficult for BMORG to look into that and perhaps participate? Otherwise, who gets to clean up all of the trash along Hwy 447 that came right out of Burning Man?
I think that it is unfair to pass along the post-event burden to others.

Rob the Wop wrote:I think that the issue here is you keep saying that the Burning Man organization is being hypocritical, and that their actions should match their words.

Problem is, you and Rex appear to be twice the hypocrites.

Now that you've shown your true colors, I think I'm pretty much done with checking your site out. I don't need to be a bullet item on your resume for "cleaning up" Burning Man.

What about me? You agreed with some of my proposals, right? I'm not being a hypocrite about anything, I'm just stating my opinion.
My opinion still stands - BMORG could do a lot more than they currently do to clean up the area.
After reading some news articles, I worry about other things that go on inside the event (rampant drug use, many alleged sexual assults) and think that BMORG should address those issues as well. But that's *inside* the event (an event that I do not attend) and it's up to you guys to lobby BMORG about those issues.
I'm concerned with what happens *outside* the event and what happens after the event packs up for the year.

Am I too far out of line by suggesting that BMORG take more care with the cleanup and that they actually stick to the terms & conditions of the usage permit? I should hope not...

So, let me make sure I understand this...you don't go to the event? And you are relying on the media along with a few on the ground observations to form an opinion? Your missing some key parts of the story.

Ok, so you don't go to the event. How do you know what the ORG actually does to try and prevent the things you are talking about? Have you visited the earth guardians exhibits? Why not volunteer as an earth guardian and find out what they tell you about the hot springs? Or why not do like I did and become a greeter, and with every vehicle that hits the gate you remind them to give the community 2 hours of clean up time before leaving, and "don't let it hit the ground", among other warnings?

If your going to take on the event, you really need to get inside it and understand it. When PETA launched their latest drive against KFC and the handling of chickens, they went inside the plants. They put people in the testing facilities and they filmed it from the inside. My hunch is if you get inside this event and you experience it some of your attitudes will shift.

Tancorix wrote:So, let me make sure I understand this...you don't go to the event? And you are relying on the media along with a few on the ground observations to form an opinion? Your missing some key parts of the story.

I said that i don't attend the event, not that I've never been there. To clarify, yes, I *have* been to the event but it is not something that I have attended year after year. I do, however, take several trips a year to the area.

Ok, so you don't go to the event. How do you know what the ORG actually does to try and prevent the things you are talking about? Have you visited the earth guardians exhibits? Why not volunteer as an earth guardian and find out what they tell you about the hot springs?

Just because I don't attend the event certainly doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on. I know people that go and have gone for many years. Our main focus is what's going on outside the event and the altered truths told to the media (and others) by BMORG.

Or why not do like I did and become a greeter, and with every vehicle that hits the gate you remind them to give the community 2 hours of clean up time before leaving, and "don't let it hit the ground", among other warnings?

If that was actually effective, not one piece of trash would be left on the playa. That would be great! Unfortunately, it just doesn't happen. A lot of trash gets left behind and is left there even after the inspections.It really would be nice if every single attendee took the effort to clean up, but that doesn't happen.

If your going to take on the event, you really need to get inside it and understand it. When PETA launched their latest drive against KFC and the handling of chickens, they went inside the plants. They put people in the testing facilities and they filmed it from the inside. My hunch is if you get inside this event and you experience it some of your attitudes will shift.

PETA also goes WAY over the line sometimes and presents absolute garbage off as fact. I would suggest using anybody but them as an example of credibility.

respecttheplanet wrote:What about me? You agreed with some of my proposals, right?

Until I found out you weren't serious. If you are starting shit with BMORG out of an ego trip, I want no part of it associated with my name.

respecttheplanet wrote:I'm not being a hypocrite about anything, I'm just stating my opinion.

You're a hypocrite if you bitch about others trashing the environment while doing it yourself. Unless you have no personel relation to Rex and Rodney. We have photographic proof of them thrashing the very same thing they claim is so dear to them.

Last edited by Rob the Wop on Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

There used to be a group of people that went out to play on the playa in their cars. That hasn't happened since 1998 or 1999. There is one reason. A discussion with Mike Bilbo in 1999 enlightened us to the fact that the playa wasn't a 'dead' surface and that excessive driving might be hurting it. At that point, we stopped. Sure, sometimes you still need to travel on the playa, but we all stick to the pre-established 'roads'.

Even if we still wanted to, we could not. The playa serpents (small dunes, about curb-high) that have formed out there since BM has been in the same location for the last few years have made the greater playa undrivable in many areas.

Next, we have no desire anymore. We have learned that the place is fragile and it was our choice to do what we could, in light of new information, knowledge and understanding, to no longer do things that might be harmful to the land.

Just to deal with any contentions, when we would go out there in the late 90's, we were nowhere even near BM, had only a limited knowledge of it, and suffered no restrictions because of it. Also, not all trips were on Labor Day. Several were a few weeks before, and some were even in October before the playa got too muddy.

II. Attendance at BM

I attended the event in 2001 and 2002 for more than just Labor Day weekend. I understand the concepts of community-from-nothing, and the emotions that are involved. However, after the departure in 2002 and my walking of the transects in May 2002 as a BLM volunteer, I came to believe that while the concept is a good one (and that BM should be allowed to exist) that the implementation of the cleanup was not adequate and that BMORG should be stopped from getting off the hook so lightly with regards to the cleanup. I still feel that way, and as a result won't attend the event anymore. I'm not disgruntled with the community or the concept - I'm just of the opionion that the BLM and the LLC need to clean up their act (figuratively and literally).

To that end, I *do* think that BRC, LLC has lied and deceived participants, the media and the BLM, or has attempted to do so. Mike Bilbo's debunking of Marian's and Larry's comments to the press are one example. The fact that 99.9% of particpants have never seen how ripped up Frog Farm remains, is another. There are others on the site. I think people have been deceived by the LLC, and I stand by that belief. And I am doing my best to provide adequate information and evdience in support of that to have the ULTIMATE GOAL of effecting POSITIVE change.

Once again, the goal is NOT to shut down the event. The goal is to understand what the event is doing to the environment around it.

metric wrote:In the weeks after the event, teams are sent to remove the trash on the sides of the road. They do not discriminate between "participant" garbage and other garbage. They just pick it all up.

I would invite anyone interested to attend National Public Lands Day after the event. We go out and repair damage from recreational users in other places of the desert. This would help provide you with a more balanced view of what comprises a "trace."

Obviously, the trash that litters the highways exiting the event is a blight. Obviously, a few irresponsible attendees are making a bad name for tens of thousands who do the right thing. And obviously, though it may not technically be their responsibility, the BM organization is doing its part to remedy the situation.

"Wetland restorationists and environmental artists will craft a site-specific plan to create wetland habitat in a human-use setting, an esthetic environment with maximum wildlife value. We will explore the intersection of art, science and our ideas about nature, using cutting-edge restoration techniques to create a living landscape that is also a work of art. A volunteer-based project integrating wild art and rigorous science will give birth to a living community that enriches our surroundings and our consciousness. "

And one other thing stands out. The Frog Pond is PRIVATE LAND in the West that has water rights. First off, why are pseudoenvironmentalists trying to tell a private landowner what they should do with their property? And coming back to the water rights if anyone starts sticking their noses into the ORG's business regarding that block of land, I'm wondering if a water rights land grab is the over-riding goal? Then as I sit here thinking about it the rumor of a proposed geo-thermal development comes to mind and I have the foundation of a great consipracy theory.

In any event if the ORG owns the water rights than they can do anything they want with the water, or at least that's my take on it not knowing the minutiae of water rights laws in Nevada. This part of the discussion basically becomes a moot point.

"Wetland restorationists and environmental artists will craft a site-specific plan to create wetland habitat in a human-use setting, an esthetic environment with maximum wildlife value. We will explore the intersection of art, science and our ideas about nature, using cutting-edge restoration techniques to create a living landscape that is also a work of art. A volunteer-based project integrating wild art and rigorous science will give birth to a living community that enriches our surroundings and our consciousness. "

Umm if frog pond would be classified as a wetland in which it is.
then doing wetland restoration would be illegal without massive enviromental study. So any qetland restorations if they are educated would know that as a fact theirfor I have to suspect what they are doign to the area as a good restoration job.
and yes I am speaking as ecologist on this point.