But then again, there are those who watch the Hindenburg blow up, and simply aren't phased.

One of the BIG issues the Kuhn, and Polanyi address is that, inside a closed system -- of "normal science" -- truly ground shaking/paradigm breaking evidences are initially rejected, since they don't fit into how scientists believe the "world really works."The evidence has no way of fitting into the current understanding -- so it is literally useless. This has been repeated throughout scientific history.

You'd think that these emails would give people pause -- but then again, the guy responsible for regulating CITI, while it levered itself to 80:1 is now running the Treasury -- and the current prescription for what got us into this crisis, is now the solution.

More than a little odd.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Other pro-AGW "scientists" are trying to cover their own sorry rear ends by attacking their own.

Meanwhile, pro-AGW zealots are denying there is even a problem.

How ironic that the pro-AGWers are now the deniers.

Welcome back to your thread, jazzguru.

These emails do nothing to change the the fact that there is a mountain of evidence that anthropogenic climate change is occurring and is potentially catastrophic. They do not contain any evidence whatsoever that data was manipulated in any systematic way to present a false truth.

You're attempting to speculate/insinuate that someone like myself and others here would EVER condone lying for a political cause -- and then essentially admitting that you are doing that very thing.

Um... no, I'm not.

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Well, if you think lying is alright...

I don't.

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...that's your choice, but I have to ask that you don't project that in my direction.

I have to ask that you improve your reading comprehension skills.

Exactly where did I say I thought that lying is alright? Exactly where did I say that I'm excusing what these scientists apparently did? I believe what they did was wrong, just as I believe what Bush and his administration did was wrong. I believe that these scientists should be banned from further involvement in the climate study process. I agree that what they have done will damage the credibility of the entire scientific community on this issue.

I also believe man-affected climate change is real and at least partially preventable and that any prevention we can achieve will be more beneficial to mankind than any economic benefits of non-prevention.

How many of you didn't care if Bush was lying about Iraq because you thought attacking them was "the right thing to do"? How many of you supported [all the lies of the Bush administration... [emph. added]

That sounds like overwrought reaching, and an attempt at moral equivalency.

You clearly and plainly asserted that I and others here are liars. Since this is not the case, I'm left to wonder where the source of this assertion comes from, and am left with nothing but to conclude that this is something that you are comfortable engaging in, and are projecting this motive as an attempt at moral equivalency.

There is no other explanation of how an imaginary "support of lying" has any place in a discussion of these emails -- other than a "yeah, but you guys do it too" gibe.

You need to use the term liar more carefully and should be prepared to take responsibility when you do use that term.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

These emails do nothing to change the the fact that there is a mountain of evidence that anthropogenic climate change is occurring and is potentially catastrophic. They do not contain any evidence whatsoever that data was manipulated in any systematic way to present a false truth.

Let's go through them.

You choose one, and we'll discuss it.

Would uou

So...data manipulation hast to be systematic to be bad? Good luck with that one.

That sounds like overwrought reaching, and an attempt at moral equivalency.

Again, you're wrong. It was an attempt at pointing out the hypocrisy of some conservatives who are pouncing on this after their supporting Bush's less than honest way of starting the Iraq war. It says nothing at all about my moral beliefs.

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You clearly and plainly asserted that I and others here are liars.

Again... wrong.
I did not address you or anyone in particular in my post. Unspecified "others", yes. But how on Earth did you drag yourself into it?

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Since this is not the case, I'm left to wonder where the source of this assertion comes from, and am left with nothing but to conclude that this is something that you are comfortable engaging in, and are projecting this motive as an attempt at moral equivalency.

As I explained above, you're completely wrong on any expression of "moral equivalency" with the hypocrites I'm addressing here. I will never be "morally" equivalent to hypocrites and liars.

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There is no other explanation of how an imaginary "support of lying" has any place in a discussion of these emails -- other than a "yeah, but you guys do it too" gibe.

Again, I never showed any "support of lying" whatsoever, nor did I make any attempt at excusing what apparently happened here. Read again. There is no "yeah, but you guys do it too". There is, however, "some of you guys are funny because you're so hypocritical".

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You need to use the term liar more carefully and should be prepared to take responsibility when you do use that term.

???
Read again. The only ones I called liars are Bush and his administration.

I am? No, I am not. I asked a plural, unspecified "you" (being a plural, it could not possibly have been you in particular) to be honest, but I didn't call you liars.

Um... I would call it pointing out hypocrisy. Which is what it did.

Now I'm pointing out a lack of comprehension skills, because you keep telling me what I said about you, and I clearly didn't say any such thing.

Initially, you somehow came to the conclusion that I condoned the scientists' apparent actions, which I clearly did not. Now you're trying to change the subject away from that assertion that you were clearly wrong about, and trying another one, that I was calling you a liar.

Aaah Taskiss, but imagine if 9 billion people jumped up and down (and really hard and all at the same time) then pending on the Australians jumping at the right time also, ie in intervals to us, the world could possibly even spin the wrong way, maybe even cause time to go backwards. Maybe that's how we'll solve the crisis. We could even burn up trees to make the planet weigh less (and vegetation- heck we could ship rocks to the moon too) so we can get it spinning faster. That's a lot to think about I know, but we need REAL solutions!

I assume this is all a facetious statement since it would likely have no impact at all from what I can see...

And the burning of the trees has what to do with anything as that which is burned is not actually destroyed but simply changes state??? And Time going backwards... We just need Superman to make a few orbits for us to get that whole ball rolling, so to speak...

To get down to it, what would you consider a REAL solution. Something that will really actively reduce the actual CO2 in the atmosphere? Not reduce the emissions, the actual count of what is there now.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

The real scandal in all this is that the authors of these emails conspired to keep papers from being published and were strategizing on ways to delegitimize authors and journals. Rather than refute papers with letters to editors or works that prove them wrong they went the other way to suppress publication and black ball the work of others.

Suppressing publication of data that is inconvenient or contradictory is not the action of objective researchers. If they are busy scuttling data that they don't like or cant refute then they are not true scientist.

These emails do nothing to change the the fact that there is a mountain of evidence that anthropogenic climate change is occurring and is potentially catastrophic. They do not contain any evidence whatsoever that data was manipulated in any systematic way to present a false truth.

To get down to it, what would you consider a REAL solution. Something that will really actively reduce the actual CO2 in the atmosphere? Not reduce the emissions, the actual count of what is there now.

Think back to when George W said "Wall Street got drunk" or words to that effect. Well now it's sobering up time for civilization. The first thing that needs to be done is the alcoholic needs to admit he/she has a drinking problem. That of course is difficult to convince the alcoholic to do. They often live in denial. So you talk to them about their problem, often kicking and screaming against their will, but sometimes they'll listen. Sometimes they see the negative effects on themselves and others and they decide to head down a path that helps them better understand their role in the problem. At this point they can start to make real progress by making substantial changes to their lives and planning for the future. For some there's a rude awakening; a serious accident or their loved one leaves and they become so isolated and desperate they seek help. Some however just carry on regardless and live in denial or blame someone else for their plight, which does them and no one around them any good, except for those financially benefiting from their behavior.

The worlds as it is, it's probably fair to say, is in rehab. It's recognized the problem and is seeking help from it's doctors, therapists and priests. It knows it doesn't want to loose it's home and family and sees that if it carries on regardless it could loose everything.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

Think back to when George W said "Wall Street got drunk" or words to that effect. Well now it's sobering up time for civilization. The first thing that needs to be done is the alcoholic needs to admit he/she has a drinking problem. That of course is difficult to convince the alcoholic to do. They often live in denial. So you talk to them about their problem, often kicking and screaming against their will, but sometimes they'll listen. Sometimes they see the negative effects on themselves and others and they decide to head down a path that helps them better understand their role in the problem. At this point they can start to make real progress by making substantial changes to their lives and planning for the future. For some there's a rude awakening; a serious accident or their loved one leaves and they become so isolated and desperate they seek help. Some however just carry on regardless and live in denial or blame someone else for their plight, which does them and no one around them any good, except for those financially benefiting from their behavior.

The worlds as it is, it's probably fair to say, is in rehab. It's recognized the problem and is seeking help from it's doctors, therapists and priests. It knows it doesn't want to loose it's home and family and sees that if it carries on regardless it could loose everything.

So you want to put the world on a 12 step program then? Where does this lead? It is nice to say there is a problem, but you have to have a plan for how to get out of the problem other than saying, see the problem? FIX IT!

So How do we reduce the actual CO2, assuming that everyone is on board and you have carte blanche...?

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

So you want to put the world on a 12 step program then? Where does this lead? It is nice to say there is a problem, but you have to have a plan for how to get out of the problem other than saying, see the problem? FIX IT!

So How do we reduce the actual CO2, assuming that everyone is on board and you have carte blanche...?

These will be sensitive times. The addiction beats on the door loudly and it's tempting to beacon it back in. Empty the vodka bottles and throw out the gin. It's hard, your one time crutch has been taken away from you. You're vulnerable still to your old habits and and it's a major life change to turn your back on them and seek a new life. Take it step by step, don't look too far ahead, deal with where your at as productively as you can. Don't torture yourself to death with too many "can I, can't I do this forever". Just try and make it through the next few hours, the next few days.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

Think back to when George W said "Wall Street got drunk" or words to that effect. Well now it's sobering up time for civilization. ...and live in denial or blame someone else for their plight, which does them and no one around them any good, except for those financially benefiting from their behavior.

I'd argue that we do not learn from experience, as such. There clearly a spiritual dimension, something flips, and then change can occur.

Putting Geithner in charge of Treasury speaks to the heart of this -- we haven't learned a thing from this crisis -- except that getting caught is a bitch. (and we knew that before)

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Originally Posted by Hands Sandon

The worlds as it is, it's probably fair to say, is in rehab. It's recognized the problem and is seeking help from it's doctors, therapists and priests. It knows it doesn't want to loose it's home and family and sees that if it carries on regardless it could loose everything.

In rehab, but sneaking out every night -- the games the EU is playing "meeting" their quotas, and the pollution in the BRICs is a disgusting joke -- and like the lack of global heating over the past decade, no one wants to talk about it.

Wendell Berry and others talk about consumerism, factory-farmed food, etc. -- if anything is wrong, it is our externalizing our pollution along with our jobs; detached from everything: locking pigs in cages, that are too small for them to even turn around; we don't see them, because they never see the sun. We don't care where our bling comes from anymore than we care about where our food comes from any more than we care about the jobs shipped overseas that give us cheap American Pie: Unrated DVDs at WalMart.

Solve that problem and the rest would be trivial. And this is why all this talk about AGW or health care reform or financial reform is utter idiocy -- Nothing Is Going To Change, it is the lifeblood and air that keeps Western society functioning.

And the disconnectedness that rules our society is showing up everywhere, and is neither seen nor understood anywhere. Whether it's healthcare, America's debt load, obesity epidemic, prozac addiction -- family failures, education failure -- the hard choices are spiritual, and the connectedness that comes from recognizing the image of God in ourselves and our neighbors is going to continue to be the path not taken.

The rest is just mindless blather -- the only thing that is possible anymore is an increase in debt load. Changing ourselves is completely out of the question.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

These will be sensitive times. The addiction beats on the door loudly and it's tempting to beacon it back in. Empty the vodka bottles and throw out the gin. It's hard, your one time crutch has been taken away from you. You're vulnerable still to your old habits and and it's a major life change to turn your back on them and seek a new life. Take it step by step, don't look too far ahead, deal with where your at as productively as you can. Don't torture yourself to death with too many "can I, can't I do this forever". Just try and make it through the next few hours, the next few days.

How very patient and thoughtful of you.

So what does that mean in real life? What does throwing out the gin and vodka entail?

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

The Interesting thing to me in this whole discussion is that it does not matter your what your actions are. If you do not agree with the thought process of those that believe that we are heading to death for everyone, even if you are doing what they think you should do, you are doing the wrong thing and do not care about anything but yourself. That argument, and thought process, makes absolutely no logical sense to me. It seems that end result are more important than outward appearances.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

The Interesting thing to me in this whole discussion is that it does not matter your what your actions are. If you do not agree with the thought process of those that believe that we are heading to death for everyone, even if you are doing what they think you should do, you are doing the wrong thing and do not care about anything but yourself. That argument, and thought process, makes absolutely no logical sense to me. It seems that end result are more important than outward appearances.

But you don't have any reason to dramatically cut CO2 or Methane. Why would anybody believe you would make drastic cuts?

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

But you don't have any reason to dramatically cut CO2 or Methane. Why would anybody believe you would make drastic cuts?

So people have to prove to you what they are doing before you will accept their word on it? What would you like, a list? How about an inspection by a non partisan third party? Government mandated reporting? What will it take?

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi