independence – autonomy – self-determination

Too Little Too Late

Scotland: you are about to be bribed and lied to by some very very desperate people.

The idea that the people that have failed by selling you a visionless campaign of cultural self-hatred, reactionary economics and a level of campaign miserabilism never seen before, will now do an about-turn and concoct an enticing federalist future (within days) is comic. But, given full-scale panic mode, this is precisely what we are being told they will try and do.

“The people of Scotland are to be offered a historic opportunity to devise a federal future for their country before next year’s general election, it emerged on Saturday night, as a shock new poll gave the campaign for independence a narrow lead for the first time.

Amid signs of panic and recrimination among unionist ranks about the prospects of a yes vote on 18 September, the Observer has learned that a devolution announcement designed to halt the nationalist bandwagon is due to be made within days by the anti-independence camp.

The plan, in the event of a no vote, is that people from all parts of Scottish society – rather than just politicians – would be invited to take part in a Scottish conference or convention that would decide on further large-scale transfers of power from London to Holyrood.”

The notion that Sir Menzies Campbell, Gordon Brown and Douglas Alexander have either the collective nous or the political clout to act with the creativity and ambition to pull that off is, without credibility.

But given the sinking feeling that is now swamping the No campaign, the notion of some post-No ‘big offer’ is being suggested.

Will Hutton pleads (‘We have 10 days to find a settlement to save the union’) that: “Westminster’s party leaders must offer to create a federal Britain and irrevocably commit to a constitutional convention to discuss its implementation if Scotland votes no.” Unfortunately he has misunderstood the basic tenor of the British State, that is to cling to power, to centralise it, and to shroud it in obscurity. #Yes are, according to the same author: “the atavistic forces of nationalism and ethnicity” – which is such an absurd metropolitan misreading of what’s going on as to be laughable.

Talk of a ‘convention’ or a ‘post-No conference’, wheeling out these tired discredited characters, none of this will be enough to stop the irresistible tide of change we are seeing.

So, let’s keep on doing what we have been doing that has got us here: relentless positivity, energy and creativity and ignore the attempts to manufacture a future-hoax that Westminster is incapable of delivering.

Never underestimate the potential danger of a dying beast. I think @labourforindy will have a successful future in Scotland as we all work together at the huge task of building a fairer society . As for the other lot? They will be cast into Wilderness I’d say. Good riddance.

I totally agree with that! Tribal Politics has been banished for the moment. Everyone who is in the Yes camp, whether you are Socialist, Tory, Democrat, Green, Communist or Nationalist have put their differences to one side, and by god, so they have. No one talks about the policies of a Party; everyone just discusses what is literally in one sense, ‘British Values’ of fairness, social sharing, and caring for those who need it most. It is a glaring mistake by the ‘No’ camp that they cannot see that the very thing they claim about Britain, is actually being fought for by the ‘Yes’ camp. It is the perception of ‘British Values’ that have driven many people into the Yes camp. How can Cameron and co claim such values when they promise only more austerity and attacks on the poor which is being led by the Tory Blue and not forgetting, Ed’s Tory Red.

I think it is great that this debate has been in the full glare of publicity over the past few weeks (rather dull for the previous couple of years). If the result is YES, as I expect it to be, with the eyes of the world on Scotland then nothing, absolutely nothing,will prevent Scots from governing themselves once again. There is more than sufficient information out now to satisfy the most cautious of voters.

Sure, there will be lots of promises made but I don’t think anything could bring about a cancellation of the referendum and its outcome. Even if every Scot of voting age is promised £500 and a job for life, and every YES vote is somehow lost, the bluff of the London based political parties has been called. They are so out of touch with events outside of London I can see the North of England following suit as best as they can in a few years time, though they might wait until Scotland proves itself to be a viable country with real potential before really raising their voice. Then they will demand a Regional Government with econcomic powers, quite different from the talking shop they rejected a few years ago.

If 5 million inspired Scots can break free from the tentacles of moribund political parties and multi-national corporations then so can Northerners (I think Yorkshore alone has 5 million residents). In the meantime, it’s time to put up the posters, bring out the bands, and continue to show the world what can be achieved in a truly democratic manner.

“The people of Scotland are to be offered a historic opportunity to devise a federal future for their country before next year’s general election.”

So what can we have? Our own foreign policy? Our own seats at the UN, NATO, the Council of Europe for as long as the people of Scotland wish? No House of Lords? No Trident? An end to projecting military power across the world? Decisions made in Scotland on military intervention? None of our money being used for massive capital projects to benefit somewhere else? Always a government with FULL powers that we in Scotland choose? I don’t think so. You can max DEVO MAX as much as you like but it always falls short of self determination. Just vote YES.

This could be serious threat because what is motivating the sea change towards yes is a desire for change and for decisions to be made in Scotland. In a situation where the gap between a yes win and a no win could be as little as a few 100,000 people, they would only need to convince possibly 100,000 to swing it for no, this is not inconceivable. I think we need to have our answer to this very clear and well articulated across all of the yes supporting online forums.

The first part of the answer to this is the lack of trustworthiness of those making it. They only offered this under duress, therefore with a no vote, safely pocketed, the duress is removed. also they broke the Electoral Commission’s Protocol that no new proposals should be put to the electorate once the designated period has started and they did this after many had posted their postal ballot. On both counts they are untrustworthy. This grubby attempt to stop a yes vote is therefore no way to go about shaping Scotland future and is demeaning and this needs to be clear.

The second part touches on the point about it being completely duplicitous. The British constitution rests on the sovereignty of parliament. No parliament can bind its successors. Therefore no Scottish Parliament can ever have the status enjoyed within a federal constitution. To change things to allow this would require a change in the British constitution, this is not in the gift of Scottish politicians, nor is it in the gift of the Prime Minister. It would require a vote in both the commons and lords. Both are dominated by members who have no reason to put Scotland’s interests first, especially after the defeat of the independence cause that a no vote would represent. Even if they did, it would require a referendum across the whole of the UK and therefore Scotland’s future would be decided by others who would resent tearing up the hyped up thousand years of English history just to accommodate Scotland. This is even worse than Alec Douglas Hume, who in 1978, at least believed in what he was saying. These politicians know damned well that this is a trick. They are motivated as ever by their desire to thwart Scotland escaping the grip of the Westminster machine.

These points need to be understood well because a seemingly no risk route to change could well temp many.

With the poll advancing the referendum will be in the news much more and a compliant media will go on and on about this alternative if it is the British establishment’s main attempt to stop a yes vote. So it’s a mistake to write it off as unimportant. To little to late is easy to understand so it’s a good way to respond to this, but we also need more comprehensive arguments as well about why this is actually a trap to halt the momentum for change. Even if it’s a rerun of the Constitutional Convention it would be a unionist controlled initiative and would have strengthening the union as one of it’s stated objectives and like the Constitutional Convention it can be amended and even thrown out by Westminster.

I think the direction of travel is clear. Yes could pick up another 200,000 or 300,000 supporters in the next 10 days, so losing maybe 100,000 to this trick, might not be a problem. Yes need to win this by a decent margin and keep your eyes on those ballet boxes to make sure none go missing. That is the biggest worry.

“also they broke the Electoral Commission’s Protocol that no new proposals should be put to the electorate once the designated period has started”
They can probably play the 28 day restriction on publications to their advantage: “respect” it by keeping the new “pledge” vague and purely the parties’ views, and then forget all about it if they manage to scrape a No.

What a desperate brainless article! Did anyone in Scotland study their own history? The union brought more power and opportunities for every single scot since the act of union. The scots have proved time and again that the combination of scots nous and English money creates genius. The union created everything of worth in the last 300 years! We are stronger TOGETHER. The world is shrinking, the EU is useless and the US is in decline. At which point do we want to globally weaken the UK more than it aready is?

“English money”?
What English money?
This belief that the UK is somehow an economic powerhouse because of the city of London is up there with flying saucers.

I keep asking people to tell what drives the uk economy and what underpins the pound. It’s just another example of a misused exponential fiat currency.

We have ‘growth’ through govt funded Ponzi scheme – funded by the tax payer through help to buy and the underwritten by the tax payer when it collapses with the proceeds going to the 0.1%.
It’s a form of socialism – socialise the losses , privatise the profits.

Yes austerity was practiced through the centuries and people’s way out of austerity was normally to die.

that just Old unionist blues talking – always looking backwards to the what was, not able to see the present much less the future for what it is. There is no economic or political argument to made for the union to continue. Its a wonder it lasted this long. I think Mr Kidd had it dead bang in his book “union & unionisms”: It became Banal…so banal people stopped paying attention to it. It would never have occurred to you to use the phrase “Scottish nous and Scottish money”. Nor it seems did it ever occur to your campaign. No they’d rather use old hoary tory bromides about Scottish dependency and then sell the union to us as a giro cheque to be cashed.

Only now when it looks like they are going to lose, are they getting an attack of honesty. Maybe if they had got a touch of honesty in 2011…who knows. But I don’t live in the past or peddle in what ifs or could have beens. Time for Scotland to move on. We’ve outgrown the union.

@ disenfranchised (and I certainly am in your glorious UK) I noticed the Freudian slip of using a lower case “s” when describing my countrymen and women. Keep up the patronising, abusive, contempt please – it garners more votes for Yes.

This is only one poll and who is behind the poll? could be just a rogue poll,I don’t think so.The poll is to help the no camp,make them try harder,and maybe make some of our yessers a little complacent,and not show up to vote.

Day 1: Democracy
Day 2: Scrap Trident
Day 3: Guarantee Scotland stays in Europe
Day 4: Offer Scotland all oil taxes
Day 5: Abolish the House of Lords
Day 6: Become a republic
Day 7: Reintroduce the NHS
Day 8: Tax the wealthy
Day 9: Resign
Day 10: Suicide

Don’t forget Scotland sees right throw the union now ,people like mike who did the article and all the rest of the yes helpers have been at it for months it’s been 1 mass political education of the masses and it’s worked ,no matter what they say or offer Scotland is well wide to them there dictators liars and thiefs (post office share float ) as each day passes we see more and more unions join yes and members of the public it’s in our hands and we are not letting go so as we approach the final lap to win the race lets have a big loud cheer for the yes camp and roar them to victory ,remember people have put up with Tory rule and wm policies and have suffered now it has all been explained to people we can change it with a cross sign in box the whole country is going for it as our good friends in Aberdeen say Stand free and stand firm keep doing what you do as it’s working and working well
Good luck and keep up fighting the good fight 1 lap to go and your in the lead !

If Westminster MPs had any natural desire to “save the union”, they would have been up in Scotland in their droves in 2012 finding out from ordinary people what had gone wrong. Former PMs and elder statesmen would have flown, there would have been emergency debates in Parliament, and everyone in England would have been talking about it.

Even now, only 100 or so Labour MPs can be mustered under orders to go into Scotland. Where are the rest of them and where are the Tories?

I was instinctively behind the union in 2012 but the progress of the referendum campaign has been an education to me as to what the union is really all about. And it’s not an expression of the love and affection of English politicians for our Scottish neighbours.

Don’t want to rain on anyones parade because of a poll result, but in my humble opinion we have another year and a half to get the confidence of the people of Scotland up to a level where everyone in Scotland, including the naysayers will be saying.

“Yes, lets make a go of this”.

We might even get Grahamski of Falkirk onboard, at least “in principle”.

Then on Independence day we can Celebrate.

There’s plenty more to come from them to discourage and weaken the resolve of the Scottish people.

had discusssion last night about these extra powers been offered,if it is some sort of federal government been offered ,am i right in saying that the house of lords and the monarchy would be abolished under a federal scotland after a no vote . i an voting yes myself just wanted to try and clarify ,with some friends who are voting no. thanks

No way will anything in Westminster, including the monarchy, be abolished. All this federal stuff is just so much b***shit to secure a no vote. Britain can never be federal. The doctrine of sovereignty of Westminster parliament means that the only thing possible is devolution i.e. Westminster still retains the power; only delegates it, and can take it back as happened in Northern Ireland during the troubles.

What I want to know is:
Who are all these No voters?
It has been clearly demonstrated that the most important decisions which affect our lives are controlled by governments we do not elect.
The threat of privatisation to our health service is now real and in the public domain and if these No people wish to continue supporting that system then there is No hope for them and unfortunately,should their views prevail,No hope for us all.
Promises of change to that system of governance are not in our hands and will be decided by the same people who decided to privatise our public services at our expense.
Thanks Mike.

Isn’t it hilarious to see Westminster is suddenly so up for people power and consultation? I wonder where they got that idea from….

As for Will Hutton and the banal, mediocre London media, what can you say? These guys are slaves to power….and almost all of them are part of the British public schoolboy mafia which runs the country. And it’s a mafia, there’s no other word for it.

Will Hutton just flounders away as usual,,,,I’d like to see him and Jonathan Freedland queuing up outside a foodbank and ask them then whether they were still getting all dewy eyed about “Britain” or, in fact, if poverty had concentrated their minds somewhat….

It’s not over till it’s over and I’m only talking about the YES vote.The most important focus primarily..

What we’ve seen from the NO HOPE CAMPAIGN so far,and it hasn’t been pretty,will look like a love-in compared to what’s about to be thrown at us.

One Poll with a 2% lead is surely great news,but complacency is not required at this point in time and while the NO group so far have only managed to make things worse for themselves with almost every aspect of their agenda,now that the Dragons of NO BETTER TOGETHER THANKS have been awoken to what really could happen,then NOW is when the real campaign begins.especially for them.

Personally I think this isn’t going to ensure a new refreshing honesty somehow.

More likely will come promises to move heaven and earth and anything else that needs done to scramble a NO at any and all costs.Wouldn’t that just sort out all this troublesome nonsense!

We need to stay seriously focused on the YES VOTE objective for the next 12 days and muddying the water with lots of ‘what we’re gonna do in the New Bright Future of a Free Independant Scotland ‘must first clear that monumentally important hurdle ,so let’s not be getting too carried away with the celebrations till the 19th with the official result on the board.

After all the only thing that counts in this referendum is the vote percentage for YES or NO.

Polls can and have been weighted to manipulate the electorate,and they surely have been so far..But I think the overall groundswell of support for YES is bigger than any person or party.

Let’s just keep the heid and get over the finishing line in first place.

28 days before elections & referendums UK Ministers and other public bodies must refrain from publishing material designed to have a bearing on the election/referendum. In the Edinburgh Agreement BOTH Westminster & Holyrood recognise the importance of respecting the 28 day period prior to the Referendum just 10 days away now (i.e. within the said 28 day period), so the UK govt will be in breach of both the Edinburgh Agreement 2012 and PPERA Act 2000 (The Political Parties,Elections and Referendums Act 2000), if it now publishes alleged ‘new powers’ [*giggle*] as a bribe to sway voters to vote NO.

I’m unsure what the legal implications of new proposals on the table contravening the Edinburgh agreement are in relation to those who have already voted. Is it possible that one of those voters could challenge the outcome with “the game’s a bogey” being declared ? Maybe sounds a totally bizarre conspiracy theory but I don’t trust the BT lot an inch.

I would not have taken too much notice of this one poll showing Yes in the lead, despite its obvious psychological boost for the campaign, were it not for the (over?) reaction of the No side. This maybe confirms everyone’s suspicion that the polls have been under-representing Yes, and that no doubt the Powers that Be know more than they’re letting on.

Some old lyrics have surfaced in my mind, prophetic snatches :

“And the words they used for to get the ship confused, they will not be understood when they are spoken” — The FUD is no longer working …

“And the foes will rise with the sleep still in their eyes, and they’ll jerk from their beds and think they’re dreaming” — Caught napping indeed …

“And they’ll raise their hands saying we’ll meet all your demands, and we’ll shout from the bows your days are numbered” — Exactly!

So I dug out the whole thing, quite inspiring really, although I’ve no idea what if anything was its original context. Maybe a partial rewrite would be in order, along with a singer who can sing 😉

Well the harbour is within sight but there’ll likely be some tricky currents going through the narrows, so steady as she goes Capt’n …

Never lose hope and do not miss a single opportunity to talk about Scottish self-rule. Centuries of ancestors have died for this chance, do not let them down. Don’t believe the lies, do not fall for promises which vanish when the ink dries. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me over and over again, shame on ME.
No more, no more of that. Act, talk, push, be sure everyone you know or meet will vote and strong urge them to believe in Scotland and vote yes. The world is watching, it is your time and we will rejoice in your independence.