If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Well, they HAVE been bent on creating a Jewish majority state, which they achieved through ethnic cleansing, correct?

As far as I know Iran only backs Hezbollah. Why are they so high on the list for being dealt with?

RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

"i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

"i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

as you can see from this map, the Muslim world is dominated by Sunnis.
Historically, they have been the more tolerant, more inclusive sect within Islam.

The Shia world, is almost exclusively Iran.From that one country, they have engaged in Jihad against Israel through Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, they have supported Syria, and are bt far the most theocratic and totalitarian regime in the entire muslim world.
Saudi Arbia has encouraged the west to overthrow the theocrasy in iran for more then 20 years now claiming that their inteligence agencies have identified the Iranians a sthe primary instigative force in the region, telling the U.S. that to end the problem we must cut off the head of the snake(Iran)

Without support and instigation from the Islamic shia regime the situation would have been resolved,and once again this notion of ethnic cleansing did not begin until after Israel was formed and attacks on Israeli citizens began,

as you can see from this map, the Muslim world is dominated by Sunnis.Historically, they have been the more tolerant, more inclusive sect within Islam.

The Shia world, is almost exclusively Iran.From that one country, they have engaged in Jihad against Israel through Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, they have supported Syria, and are bt far the most theocratic and totalitarian regime in the entire muslim world.
Saudi Arbia has encouraged the west to overthrow the theocrasy in iran for more then 20 years now claiming that their inteligence agencies have identified the Iranians a sthe primary instigative force in the region, telling the U.S. that to end the problem we must cut off the head of the snake(Iran)

Without support and instigation from the Islamic shia regime the situation would have been resolved,and once again this notion of ethnic cleansing did not begin until after Israel was formed and attacks on Israeli citizens began,

If there is a Boogeyman for Arab persecution it is Britan.
They handed over the land to jewish settlement,and at the time it was theirs to do just that.

Bolded is far from the truth. They're the only sect that preaches the idea that all other forms of Islam is heretical and punishable by death. This is the only reason why they have such a hard on for Iran and Syria.

as you can see from this map, the Muslim world is dominated by Sunnis.
Historically, they have been the more tolerant, more inclusive sect within Islam.

The Shia world, is almost exclusively Iran.From that one country, they have engaged in Jihad against Israel through Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, they have supported Syria, and are bt far the most theocratic and totalitarian regime in the entire muslim world.
Saudi Arbia has encouraged the west to overthrow the theocrasy in iran for more then 20 years now claiming that their inteligence agencies have identified the Iranians a sthe primary instigative force in the region, telling the U.S. that to end the problem we must cut off the head of the snake(Iran)

Without support and instigation from the Islamic shia regime the situation would have been resolved,and once again this notion of ethnic cleansing did not begin until after Israel was formed and attacks on Israeli citizens began,

If there is a Boogeyman for Arab persecution it is Britan.
They handed over the land to jewish settlement,and at the time it was theirs to do just that.

Why is it that Iran has been involved in conflict with Israel?

From what I know, Saudi is more oppressive govt than Iran. Why should their word hold so much weight? What is to be taken from saudi's opinion?

Who attacked Israeli citizens after the state was formed? Why did they attack?

RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

"i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

Suadi Arabia,Kazakstan,uzbekistan,Turkmenistan,kyrgyzsta n,Tajikstan, Turkey,and almost all of the Muslimized African nations are sunni.
Most are allied with the west,most have religious protection, and most are peaceful.
I personally have been to Turkey , Morrocco, and Saudi Arbia and have been openly western, which is to say Christian as far as they are concerned.

Never had a problem.

also the split between sunni and shia has nothing to do with religious tolerance.
It is based on the succession of religious authority following Mohameds death.The particular intolerance you are mentioning exists primarily In Saudi.Having spent several months there, I found it trying, but not intolerable.
The "hardon" isnt about tolerance, its about a power struggle between the center of influence of the Arab world, Saudi has it, Iran wants it, but beyond that Iran is the clearest sponser of Terrorist cells in the entire world so I would argue its over the allowance of practicing religions within their borders, Egypt and most other sunni nations have open acceptance of other religions.

This thread should just be closed with how it has devolved into proving who is more intelligent, or more knowledgeable in history.

All it is at this stage is a white hat/ black hat argument to prove one side is without fault and the oher is without excuse- which has nothing in common with the planet I have been living in for almost 40 years now.

Good points were made early on. Let's go back to that:

What does each side (yes, both of them) need to do to to establish a lasting peace? Or, more specifically:

What do we need to do?
Iran?
Egypt?
Lebanon?
Fatah?
Hammas?
What do we do about Hezboullah?
The UN?
Can any of it even be done with Netenyahu in power? (you know, after he ran those camps and let people die rather than get aid)?
Can it be done with the current Palestinian authority?

I think it can. I also think we capable of a lot of things. It isn't in the doing. Its in the wanting to get it done.

Suadi Arabia,Kazakstan,uzbekistan,Turkmenistan,kyrgyzsta n,Tajikstan, Turkey,and almost all of the Muslimized African nations are sunni.
Most are allied with the west,most have religious protection, and most are peaceful.
I personally have been to Turkey , Morrocco, and Saudi Arbia and have been openly western, which is to say Christian as far as they are concerned.

Never had a problem.

also the split between sunni and shia has nothing to do with religious tolerance.
It is based on the succession of religious authority following Mohameds death.The particular intolerance you are mentioning exists primarily In Saudi.Having spent several months there, I found it trying, but not intolerable.
The "hardon" isnt about tolerance, its about a power struggle between the center of influence of the Arab world, Saudi has it, Iran wants it, but beyond that Iran is the clearest sponser of Terrorist cells in the entire world so I would argue its over the allowance of practicing religions within their borders, Egypt and most other sunni nations have open acceptance of other religions.

Iran has religious protection too

Saudi sponsors more madrassas in pakistan than Iran. To say they are the biggest sponsor of terrorism is a statement I would have to see backed up by some kind of reasoning in order to accept it

What is so different about the older "pro west" govt of iran vs the newer one, other than the oil companies they do business with?

I would like to hear ur take on my 1st and 3rd question from my previous post if u have the time.

RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

"i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

Israeli intelligence is some of the most comprehensive in the world, they have their fingers in the koolaide everywhere.
They have traced hezbollah, and Hamas funding and armaments back to Iran.
As well as almost every offensive they have faced.
I think I provided the link to israels conflicts over the past 80 years in my last couple of Posts...geez, When I dont support my statements people complain, when I do you guys dont bother to read them(LOL).

why Iran more so then other arab nations has been so agressive in its rhetoric towards Israel is not something Ive ever investigated, but Ill research it and respond.

Your third question is covered in the link That I supplied but as I pointed out, there seemed to be a refusal to accept the terms of the british mandate.
when they were both equally oppressed by the Brits, there was little conflict, when the brits tryed to say well this portion we are giving to the jews there was a huge anger, it does appear to be the Prime Rib so to speak so I could see that being an issue, but ultimately arab sentiment appears to have been the exclusion of ANY jewish "homeland" in the middle east.IDK why, thats just how they fealt ,which as i said from the start is nutty to me..it is the same faith, they are ALL the same faith...so the muslims believe that Mohamed was the "greatest" prophet and closest to GOD....Ok, thats cool, no big deal...so Christ was also a prophet, but not the son of God...Ok, if your happy with that great.So the jews just stick to ancient teachings and dont accept the koran or the new teatament...thats cool too, I mean its like arguing a story is only as good as its last chapter or something, they all believe in the God of Abraham, why cant that be more important then where they differ?

This thread should just be closed with how it has devolved into proving who is more intelligent, or more knowledgeable in history.

All it is at this stage is a white hat/ black hat argument to prove one side is without fault and the oher is without excuse- which has nothing in common with the planet I have been living in for almost 40 years now.

Good points were made early on. Let's go back to that:

What does each side (yes, both of them) need to do to to establish a lasting peace? Or, more specifically:

What do we need to do?

I think the US needs to do things like the missile shield to protect Israel. But I would like to see less active involvement in the region. Opening a dialog/mission office/diplomatic post with Fatah on the West Bank would be good. Move back to our traditional semi-neutral position.

Iran?

I vote for leaving Iran the alone. If Israel and Iran want to fight, good for them. Keep the sanctions. Quit acting like we are going to attack them at any moment.

Egypt?

Make our aid more democracy dependent. The more democratic they are, they more aid they get. The less, the less. Egyptians should be allowed to run their country however they want. The US trying to find a friendly dictator does no good.

Lebanon?

It would be nice if the US could do something with France to get Lebanon back to what it was before 1967. With the fall of the Assad regime in Syria, that may be possible.

Fatah?

JMO, but Fatah looks like a group that has grown tired of being revolutionaries and wants to get into the country governing business. The US should encourage that.

Hammas?

Until they decide they want peace with Israel, let Israel keep killing them off????

What do we do about Hezboullah?

See Hammas.

The UN?
Can any of it even be done with Netenyahu in power? (you know, after he ran those camps and let people die rather than get aid)?

Probably not, Netenyahu doesn't seem interested in a two state solution. Until the people of Israel get rid of him, there doesn't seem much point in much of this. But that is Israel's problem, not the US's.

Can it be done with the current Palestinian authority?

Yes, I think so. See Fatah. Cut Gaza off from the West Bank, make the West Bank a country and Gaza an occupied territory. If and when Gaza wants to join the West Bank, let them. But Fatah has to be able to control Gaza before it becomes a country.

I think it can. I also think we capable of a lot of things. It isn't in the doing. Its in the wanting to get it done.

me too, both side bear culpability in the current lack of progress in peace talks. The US can encourage. Hell, Bill Clinton came within a hair of getting this thing settled. If it can be done once, it can be done again.

Israeli intelligence is some of the most comprehensive in the world, they have their fingers in the koolaide everywhere.
They have traced hezbollah, and Hamas funding and armaments back to Iran.
As well as almost every offensive they have faced.
I think I provided the link to israels conflicts over the past 80 years in my last couple of Posts...geez, When I dont support my statements people complain, when I do you guys dont bother to read them(LOL).

oh, I had looked at ur link, I guess I got mixed up cuz I thought you were putting that link there to show an Irani connection to the Israeli attacks, which I didn't see, and I thought you had linked it to show that the ethnic cleansing had started AFTER attacks on Israeli citizens began, but the earliest war listed was DURING the exodus. My bad if confusion on my part, but I def didn't ignore ur link. But I will admit, earlier you had mentioned a couple "arab revolts", I really haven't looked into that, so maybe I need to and maybe it will help clear some things up for me.

Originally Posted by stephkyle7

Your third question is covered in the link That I supplied but as I pointed out, there seemed to be a refusal to accept the terms of the british mandate.
when they were both equally oppressed by the Brits, there was little conflict, when the brits tryed to say well this portion we are giving to the jews there was a huge anger, it does appear to be the Prime Rib so to speak so I could see that being an issue, but ultimately arab sentiment appears to have been the exclusion of ANY jewish "homeland" in the middle east.IDK why, thats just how they fealt ,which as i said from the start is nutty to me..it is the same faith, they are ALL the same faith...so the muslims believe that Mohamed was the "greatest" prophet and closest to GOD....Ok, thats cool, no big deal...so Christ was also a prophet, but not the son of God...Ok, if your happy with that great.So the jews just stick to ancient teachings and dont accept the koran or the new teatament...thats cool too, I mean its like arguing a story is only as good as its last chapter or something, they all believe in the God of Abraham, why cant that be more important then where they differ?

hmm, didn't really catch where this (previous to palestinian exodus, who attacked israeli citizens and why) was answered in those links.

I'm not too sure about what this british mandate is (other than textbook divide and conquer), its kind of confusing me. So they split the land into two states, correct? They said one state is for jews so all non jews get out and one state is for non jews so all jews get out?? I'm having a tough time figuring out how the formation of two states lead to an ethnic cleansing of arabs. From my understanding, which may be wrong, it seems to me that in the state of "israel", the zionist gov't of israel wanted to ensure a jewish majority, so they cleaned out the non jewish population in order to achieve that. Is this incorrect?

RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

"i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

Saudi sponsors more madrassas in pakistan than Iran. To say they are the biggest sponsor of terrorism is a statement I would have to see backed up by some kind of reasoning in order to accept it
What is so different about the older "pro west" govt of iran vs the newer one, other than the oil companies they do business with?

I would like to hear ur take on my 1st and 3rd question from my previous post if u have the time.

Saudi Arabia supports most terrorist states and groups around the world. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, and many of the people who fight us abroad(including Iraq) come from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia also commits numerous human rights abuses, and are often an oppressive regime towards their own people.

...BUT they're our ally, so the reality gets swept under the rug and is minimilalized.

What I just described is a good example of our relationship with Israel. If it's our ally doing it, well then it's entirely different. You can apply this to our own foreign policy as well.

Most Americans are conditioned to support our allies, regardless of the black and white reality of what these countries do. With information so monopolized, and the discussion(if any) being conducted in such a narrow spectrum, it's hard not to be this way.

This thread should just be closed with how it has devolved into proving who is more intelligent, or more knowledgeable in history.

All it is at this stage is a white hat/ black hat argument to prove one side is without fault and the oher is without excuse- which has nothing in common with the planet I have been living in for almost 40 years now.

Good points were made early on. Let's go back to that:

What does each side (yes, both of them) need to do to to establish a lasting peace? Or, more specifically:

What do we need to do?
Iran?
Egypt?
Lebanon?
Fatah?
Hammas?
What do we do about Hezboullah?
The UN?
Can any of it even be done with Netenyahu in power? (you know, after he ran those camps and let people die rather than get aid)?
Can it be done with the current Palestinian authority?

I think it can. I also think we capable of a lot of things. It isn't in the doing. Its in the wanting to get it done.

You let the democratic process run its course and allow the secular Yisrael Beiteinu party to win the next election.

I'm not too sure about what this british mandate is (other than textbook divide and conquer), its kind of confusing me. So they split the land into two states, correct? They said one state is for jews so all non jews get out and one state is for non jews so all jews get out?? I'm having a tough time figuring out how the formation of two states lead to an ethnic cleansing of arabs. From my understanding, which may be wrong, it seems to me that in the state of "israel", the zionist gov't of israel wanted to ensure a jewish majority, so they cleaned out the non jewish population in order to achieve that. Is this incorrect?

That's not correct at all.

In the 1900s Jewish Settlers started buying land off of the Bedouin and started settling in Palestine. By 1948, they already accounted for more than 30% of the population.

The UN voted to partition the Palestine into two states, Israel and Palestine. The Arabs automatically revolted and became increasingly violent towards Jewish immigrants and British soldiers (source).

After their mandate expired, the armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq invaded Palestine. The war that ensued created the Palestinian exodus. It wasn't ethnic cleansing. If anything, Palestinians were encouraged to leave and were expeled by occupying Arab armies.