quote:We can go back on forth on this, because I don't believe in win shares at all. But given that, Jefferson plays on worse teams, so his WS will always be lower. Also, George Hill had a 9.7 win share last season, so I guess he had a top 5 PG year and really close to a "dominant season". There isn't a guy in the top 20 in WS that was on a sub .500 team. So I guess every guy on one of those teams just suck.

quote: He was second in the league in D-Win Shares too. The reason that Memphis is so good at D is because Marc is anchoring the middle.

Memphis had 4 guys in the top 15 in that category. It could be because them play a great defensive system that pumps those guys numbers up. But if you want to make a case that Zach Randolph is top 10 defender and the best defensive PF in the league last year, that's your right.

quote: On offense it's the very essence of who Gasol is compared to Al. Gasol plays in the high post and is a distributor-the offense runs through him. Marc is a superior passer, thus his Ast Rate last year was close to 20% and was nearly identical to his Usage Rate. Big Al is a black hole. His usage rate is exceedingly high for a player of his caliber(25%), does not pass the ball out of the block. Also taking 16 shots a game to score 17 is inefficent, especially considering how close to the basket he is(and also doesn't get to the line as a big man). Marc-taking seven less shots, doubles Als FTA,

They have different roles on offense and you are skewing the numbers. Jefferson is the primary offensive option. Gasol has always been 2nd or 3rd. Gasol is a better passer, but his assist numbers has never been far and away better than Jefferson. Plus he turns it over more. Yes, Jefferson takes 16 shots to get 18, but Gasol takes 11 to get 14. How much better is that really?

quote: Al is notoriously terrible on defense, one of the major reasons his teams are .500 at best. A one way center with no defensive impact is pretty invaluable as a player-which is why Al has been traded twice and is now signed to the Bobcats.

I can't debate that he is a bad defender. But his team's failures can't all be put on him. He has played in bad situations, under horrible coaches. Plus, he is not a Center. He is a PF and has had to play out of position out of desperate team need.

quote: Gasol, now free of Rudy Gay, is an All-NBA player, an All-Star, a starter for the second best international team, took his team to the conference finals. Memphis has spacing issues, so until that is addressed it they won't go to the finals.

He was a reserve All-star at the weakest position in the league. Sure, he is top 5 at his position, but there are only 5 or 6 decent Centers in the league. That doesn't make him great, it just makes him rare. You don't hyper inflate his value for that reason. Also, why does his role with the Spanish team matter? Could you name all 5 starters without looking it up? Are you going to give Victor Claver credit for being their starting PF?

quote: Don't take my word for it, do some research, take a poll. Gasol is a top 20 player in the league. Al Jefferson is not

Its an overreaction to a decent season that really wasn't that impressive. If you think that averaging 14/8/4/1.47/1 is a top 20 player, then I just don't know what to tell you. I'm just not going to give that much credit to the 3rd best player on the 5th best team in the league.

it's so hard to rank players past 2 or 3, especially across positions. i think most would agree it's LBJ followed by KD then after that you could make an argument for just about anyone in the top 10. not sure Gasol is there, but definitely top 20 and likely top 15.

Gasol is a better player, but he isn't "light years ahead" of Jefferson. Of course Gasol is an advanced stat guy because of his efficiency and ability to pass the ball. That's always a nice bump for a big man when comparing him to others who shoot FTs poorly or don't get to play in an offense where they have the opportunity to dish the ball.

Jefferson always gets knocked for stuff that are usually a result of the players around him.

Coming out of high school he got stuck on a middling Celtic team pre Big 3.

Then he goes to Minny to play on a sub 20 win team for a few years.

Then he gets stuck on the wrong side of a nice Jazz run playing with one of the youngest teams in the league.

And now he goes to the fricking Bobcats

No one will ever fully appreciate Al Jeff. He more than likely will never get the chance to play with a good core of players on a championship contending team. He's a lot like Elton Brand. Two very good post players whose true talent isn't recognized because they have played for shite teams most of their careers.

quote:He's top 20-25 and really good, but I don't see how he could be a top 10 player. He's better than Jefferson, though.

ETA: I've looked through his advanced stats to see if there's something I'm missing, but I still haven't found anything that points to him being a top 10 playe

I think he's top 15, but he can still rise into the top 10. As far as advanced stats, top 10 in total Win Shares, WS/48. 2nd in Def.Win Shares, top 20 in Offensive Win Shares. Top 20 in Block Pct., top 15 in BPG. Only center last year to be top 20 in FT% (.848) and the NBArank tagline

quote:The Grizzlies were 10.9 points per 100 possessions better with Gasol on the court last season than they were with Gasol off the court. With Gasol on the floor, they scored 4.1 more points and allowed 6.8 fewer points per 100 possessions.

quote:Jefferson always gets knocked for stuff that are usually a result of the players around him.

Coming out of high school he got stuck on a middling Celtic team pre Big 3.

Then he goes to Minny to play on a sub 20 win team for a few years.

Then he gets stuck on the wrong side of a nice Jazz run playing with one of the youngest teams in the league.

And now he goes to the fricking Bobcats

Jefferson doesn't play defense, as the center that's your main job. There is a reason he's been traded twice and now the worst franchise in the league is the only team that made a run at him.

He's nothing like an prime Elton Brand. Brand was light years ahead of him too.

Advanced stats also love black hole shooters, which is what Jefferson is. He's one dimensional and doesn't pass the ball. Don't give me the "no opportunity to pass the ball crap" Al Jefferson has played with some good players including: Paul Pierce, Kevin Love, Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams. He's the problem, not everyone else.

Gasol doesn't post up nearly as much as Jefferson because Zach Randolph is on the block, he's playing high post because he has the talent to do it. Most big men don't make decisions. Gasol does that and is the anchor of a great defense. His post up game is good too. His running hook is the best in the league.