I believe that you made a mistake in your presentation that led to you saying something that you did not imply. Talking about a "grey area" implies strongly that you are talking about ambiguity, specifically moral ambiguity. A topic where there is more than two or more absolute, defined points with no crossovers between them. In terms of this, in an absolute sense there are two categories: rape is right, and rape is wrong. You were discussing two points where rape is wrong - motivated by a desire for control, and motivated by a lack of control over yourself (although I believe Endus is asserting that these two are intrinsically connected on a basal level, although they are expressed in different ways). So this would be XX. For YY, rape is always right you have, well.. I can't really think about a situation, and don't really want to. When you say there is a gray area, you say that there is XY, a motivation that is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. When you do this by using the term "grey area," you are suggesting that Y is possible and it is possible for rape to be justified.

English technically isn't my first language, sometimes I misuse terminology I think is right because in my original tongue it has a certain meaning that works but in english it does not. Anyways, truth I simply shouldn't be writing anymore because I'm too tired to pay attention to detail and that detracts from I'm trying to convey with mistakes like Godwin and apparently this.

Let's not go there again.
Your post is sexist. Honestly; it paints two pictures:
-Men as a group aren't guilty of anything (rape).
-Women as a group ARE guilty (gold-digging).

This is pure confirmation bias, and it's really very... How to put it nicely? Skewed by your personal emotions. What you perceive does not reflect what is.
I agree that men as a group aren't guilty of rape.
Women as a group aren't guilty of gold-digging, rape, assault, abuse or anything else.

Individuals do nasty things, but you're judging based on your personal actions versus other's actions, and that never gets good results.

Men certainly are guilty of rape, but not to the extreme that all woman need to assume a man will rape them (I am a man and i never raped, or even thought of raping anyone). Also, women are guilty of gold digging, but of course not all of them, at least not to the extent that men should assume that all women are gold diggers. My point here is that one should approach everything with an open mind and not assume the worst. I believe the OP made reference to some women being told that they should assume all men are rapists. Which of course is not the case as you pointed out. My point was directed at the people who subscribe to the belief that all men should be viewed as potential rapists. I was pointing out the ridiculousness of that theory. Also, to assume all woman are unable to defend themselves against an attacker is wrong. Its not like "hey, Im going to rape you and there is nothing you can do about." Also, as pointed out in another thread: a man can also rape a man. Yet, I as a man dont view all men as potential rapists.

WTF OP, where the hell are you getting this from? I am a female who did my undergrad in Chicago (with the campus in a really really crappy part of the city--look up where U of C's main campus is) and I never worried about any of these things. And I'm 5'8 115 lbs soaking wet.

I carry mace and took a self defense course when I turned 16 and my dad taught me to shoot at an early age, I can handle myself and most able-bodied women can too.

You sound bitter. >.<

Probably the women who cite male privilege and complain about having to be afraid of walking alone at night.

Alright then. Just asking since most people seem to confuse justification with reasons to why it happens.

They don't confuse anything, they just like to sound good saying stuff like: "You're a rapist" and "There's no justification for rape" when that's not all what you've been talking about, just so people that don't read past the first few lines, like Talokami, can throw flowers at them.

They don't confuse anything, they just like to sound good saying stuff like: "You're a rapist" and "There's no justification for rape" when that's not all what you've been talking about, just so people that don't read past the first few lines, like Talokami, can throw flowers at them.

Alright then. Just asking since most people seem to confuse justification with reasons to why it happens.

I've seen some posts (and my own) saying *This is why it happens* just to later be accused of condoning such actions simply because one recognize why they happen.

The issue is that those posters try to blame the circumstances, like "he gets all hot and bothered and then she says 'no'", rather than the rapist, for the rape that occurs. By saying "oh, it's motivated by these kinds of situations", what you're really saying is that you should expect that some men would legitimately (if illegally) act this way, in that situation.

And what the rest of us are saying is "no". Rape occurs in those situations because that particular man has a lack of concern/care for the woman he's with, and decides that getting off is more important than what she wants. So he rapes her. The justifications and motivations are, at their heart, irrelevant. Those same "justifications and motivations" exist for other guys, too, who somehow DON'T choose to rape the girl.

Because the issues leading to rape aren't those justifications and motivations, as expressed. They're the individual man, who chooses to rape the girl. Those "justifications and motivations" are not causes, they're excuses. They're what he tells himself so that he doesn't see himself for the monster he is. It's no different than a guy saying "my girl said she was gonna leave me, so I killed her". That doesn't mean breaking up with someone is a motivation or justification for murder. It means that particular guy is a violent psycho.

That's the difference. It doesn't matter to me what their justifications or motivations may be, because they're not valid. They do not justify rape. As such, they're merely excuses, and to be ignored.

I'm a pretty shy guy and I would hate for people to make it harder for me to be friendly because they're running away. It really doesn't do anyone any favours when if you're being paranoid for no reason or having such strong negative preconceptions about 50% of the world's population.

It makes guys feel awkward and like they've done something horribly offensive. It enforces the stereotype that women are helpless and vulnerable to everything.

To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women? Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians? What about feminine guys?

Uhhhhhh no I don't think that's it. That's certainly not the truth for me.

Just saying we shouldn't get lynched for giving our thought to what the reason for rape is. It's like saying : " I know Hitler gazed Jewish people because he thought they were less worth and evolved than his Aryan race" and get replied with "You racists pig! You think jews are less worth than you!"

The issue is that those posters try to blame the circumstances, like "he gets all hot and bothered and then she says 'no'", rather than the rapist, for the rape that occurs. By saying "oh, it's motivated by these kinds of situations", what you're really saying is that you should expect that some men would legitimately (if illegally) act this way, in that situation.

And what the rest of us are saying is "no". Rape occurs in those situations because that particular man has a lack of concern/care for the woman he's with, and decides that getting off is more important than what she wants. So he rapes her. The justifications and motivations are, at their heart, irrelevant. Those same "justifications and motivations" exist for other guys, too, who somehow DON'T choose to rape the girl.

Because the issues leading to rape aren't those justifications and motivations, as expressed. They're the individual man, who chooses to rape the girl. Those "justifications and motivations" are not causes, they're excuses. They're what he tells himself so that he doesn't see himself for the monster he is. It's no different than a guy saying "my girl said she was gonna leave me, so I killed her". That doesn't mean breaking up with someone is a motivation or justification for murder. It means that particular guy is a violent psycho.

That's the difference. It doesn't matter to me what their justifications or motivations may be, because they're not valid. They do not justify rape. As such, they're merely excuses, and to be ignored.

Aaaaaaaaah man I feel like Anakin at the end of Episode III when he's looking up at Obi-Wan from the edge of that lake of lava when I read your posts. You're so full of it. People can discuss the different REASONS for rape taking place without them being an excuse. You're all about "domination" and "misogyny" being the sole motivating factors for rape and yet I don't hear you saying that it "justifies" rape in any way. So why is it when somebody advances something like "hormones" as a possibly different "motivator" for rape you get all high and mighty and act like that's in any way being presented as a valid excuse for rape, on top refuting it's potential validity just because "you said so". Such a hypocrite.

To be honest, I think something is wrong when people like us have to even respond to topics like this. It really shouldn't be necessary for us to say "Rape is bad." But I understand where you are coming from.

Rape is wrong and is utterly a disgusting act beyond belief. I cannot think of doing anything worse to a person. I created this thread from noticing the way a few women i know behave and a bunch of posts i have seen on facebook lately(and here) and was wondering if women(and men) take any steps to avoiding the situation as the things i have seen lately a bit ludicrous ( assuming all men are rapists so must be treated as such at all times) though what many of the people here have shown, like tiili explained all seem reasonable to protect yourself. This thread also wasn't meant to be some pity train to attack women with

Every reason for rape(any crime) boils down to the person not caring about the victim. However, that is not the motivation for the rape. Something me and many others have tried to say. If you don't agree that's up to you. Now, the problem I have is that people start screaming rapist just because they don't AGREE with our version for what motivates it. As I said, recognizing the cause doesn't mean we condone it.

Really, what is this "fucked world views" about men that I supposedly have, as an avowed feminist?

Sorry for going a bit off topic here, but I would say my entire disagreement with feminism stems from the name, I agree that things were not (and still are not) exactly equal but I also think that both sides have their positives. Basically I think a fairly large portion of feminists want to keep their advantages and equalize their disadvantages. Thereby giving themselves a clear advantage. I think if more feminists called themselves equalitarians or something similar and acknowledged that the grass really isn't that much greener on the other side of the fence (if at all, by that I mean I think we have roughly equal advantages and disadvantages though very rarely equal at the same thing) then I would be more inclined to agree with them.

That being said there have been some things I've seen you say that I heartily agree with and some that I shake my head and wonder if you really live in the same world that I do.

God and maths? Hmm, the letter to alpha relation would be 7 - 15 - 4. Since it's all one word, it's safe to assume it's multiplication so it'd be 7*15*4=420. So realistically, god is related to cannabis? Perhaps that's what they were expecting you to write.

They don't confuse anything, they just like to sound good saying stuff like: "You're a rapist" and "There's no justification for rape" when that's not all what you've been talking about, just so people that don't read past the first few lines, like Talokami, can throw flowers at them.

It has nothing to do with trying to sound good. There is no REASON for rape. There is no JUSTIFICATION for rape. You and Sorr have been trying to give reasons that would motivate someone to rape, reasons such as having too much testosterone or being too in the heat of moment to realize the person has said no. These aren't reasons or justifications. They are cop outs for people who will rape no matter what. Trying to delve into the mind of someone who will rape you either way is absolutely pointless. Trying to convince people that they had a reason is disgusting.

Just saying we shouldn't get lynched for giving our thought to what the reason for rape is. It's like saying : " I know Hitler gazed Jewish people because he thought they were less worth and evolved than his Aryan race" and get replied with "You racists pig! You think jews are less worth than you!"

Yes, now we have proper Godwin's in here! xD

I..wouldn't lynch you. Enough people in history has been lynched.

Since the great Arganis wants my opinion I'll give it.

I'm a shy man/boy I like girls,attractive girls. I don't think I'm the hottest guy on the planet but I do think I'm not horrible either but anyways. I DO NOT believe man cannot control themselves during the process of Sex. I just do not believe it for ONE MINUTE. I also don't think Girls should play mind games with us like sending a "I like you but I really don't and just messing with you." Please don't do mind games, it just annoys me and confuses me." Also please don't slowly drift away from a man that also annoys me. If you like to hug me or men please stay consistent and not mess with my head.

Also I hate rape and using it incorrectly just annoys me as well but that is not a girl problem. That is a internet issue. Anyways, I'm sure there are reasons behind rapists, revenge, pure malice, power as so commonly known, and among other things. That is not a justification because there is none. Sure people get drunk and lose reason but again this is why I don't drink it just causes problems.

I do know that rape accusations even false can screw you up. Seems people turn on each other very easily if found out about rape whichh is sad but a crime such as rape is so severe it is the result. It's not right but it's an obvious conclusion. What I think is...and I really stress this FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT JUST CRY RAPE FALSELY You are just hurting actual raped victims with their credability and ruining men's lives. Yes I know men can be raped but I think you can get the idea.

Just saying we shouldn't get lynched for giving our thought to what the reason for rape is. It's like saying : " I know Hitler gazed Jewish people because he thought they were less worth and evolved than his Aryan race" and get replied with "You racists pig! You think jews are less worth than you!"

Yes, now we have proper Godwin's in here! xD

Somebody that gets it, thank god, was about to lose my last bit of sanity.

---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 01:18 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Aeluron

I..wouldn't lynch you. Enough people in history has been lynched.

Since the great Arganis wants my opinion I'll give it.

I'm a shy man/boy I like girls,attractive girls. I don't think I'm the hottest guy on the planet but I do think I'm not horrible either but anyways. I DO NOT believe man cannot control themselves during the process of Sex. I just do not believe it for ONE MINUTE. I also don't think Girls should play mind games with us like sending a "I like you but I really don't and just messing with you." Please don't do mind games, it just annoys me and confuses me." Also please don't slowly drift away from a man that also annoys me. If you like to hug me or men please stay consistent and not mess with my head.

Also I hate rape and using it incorrectly just annoys me as well but that is not a girl problem. That is a internet issue. Anyways, I'm sure there are reasons behind rapists, revenge, pure malice, power as so commonly known, and among other things. That is not a justification because there is none. Sure people get drunk and lose reason but again this is why I don't drink it just causes problems.

I do know that rape accusations even false can screw you up. Seems people turn on each other very easily if found out about rape whichh is sad but a crime such as rape is so severe it is the result. It's not right but it's an obvious conclusion. What I think is...and I really stress this FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT JUST CRY RAPE FALSELY You are just hurting actual raped victims with their credability and ruining men's lives. Yes I know men can be raped but I think you can get the idea.