Not liking the Lottie votes. So, Fea comes in and makes a random vote, lets excuse that and go along with her for no apparent reason. Not liking how Mira defends the vote either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morsul

Either the voters are using their one time retractable votes in silly posts(therefore wasting them) or they'll later say when voting an innocent "I realized they were innocent After voting but could do nothing about it...sorry.

++Glirdan

Will I retract? Probably. Would it be a waste of the 1 retract? No. I like dumping them soon, so I can actually put my votes to best uses. Retracts give a reason to not make the best vote, as it's kind of like...these are here in case you get get careless and mess up.

I expect Fea to retract, and have some reason for the vote? Will she tell us? Probably not. Does it matter? Not really. Is she a wolf? Dunno.

__________________
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

SS is doing really well - making sense, being logical, and seems to know what's what. Either he has packmates who are telling him how to act, or he's just read through enough games to know. I'm inclined to think it's the latter, because packmates would probably not encourage him to act so very well-adjusted to the game.

Thanks. To be honest I've not read through any old games. Briefly I tried to keep up with one or two at some point but reading page after page quickly proved too taxing without a personal interest. Last August I played live ww with the Finniship which is why I'm familiar with the basic rules, but I might well become confused soon enough.

Bedtime soon and I will have to vote I guess. Naturally I know what I am, but as for the others I'm in the dark. You lot may have reasons to suspect people based on the lessons learnt from old games. Me, I will have to base my decision on what I can see here. And to my mind, the only logical suspicion I can raise at this point is on Fea. I've already explained why. To my mind, throwing away ones vote early on a random target makes more sense for a wolf. You might double-guess and reason that this would suggest the opposite, that a real wolf never would stick out her neck like that, and triple-guess that she suspects that this is what people would think, thus keeping her safe etc. but that's too much for me at present. I'll stick to my first impression.

Min finländske vän Lommy may of course be right that this is vintage Fea, and that she will come back and retract her vote before the deadline and make another more one. But if so, that too is slightly suspicious to me. The retractable vote must be an advantage to have, no? Why then waste it?

So, I'm going to vote for Fea unless something happens in the next hour or so that make me change my mind about it. Bare in mind that my suspicions are weak though. She could also easily be innocent.

__________________"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves

Posts: 9,051

(~~~) *grin emerging*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inzil-majesty

I was saying I didn't fault Nerwen for questioning ww's vote, after Agan thought Nerwen could be wolfy for calling it into question, and that's suspicious?

Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inzil-majesty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agan

What exactly made you draw attention to winty after two posts? It looks like a Nerwolf looking for an easy lynch.

I didn't see it that way. That vote should receive some scrutiny, and I don't think she was overly eager about suspecting ww.

What I found suspicious here is the fact that you say that winty's vote should receive some scrutiny, which is nonsense. We can speculate the whole Day about him being a) newbie with little knowledge of the game, b) newbie who has played this on different fora, c) newbie with instructions to play a "newbie-card" by his packmates, d) newbie who thinks two steps ahead of most of us, e) newbie who just plays dashingly bold... you can continue that list. But that will lead us nowhere, especially if he doesn't come forwards to take part of the discussion - and that would not be "scrutinising his vote" anymore.

If there first is no explanation and when the explanation finally comes and is a verse from the book, there's little to scrutinise.

Why I find that suspicious then? If you were an innocent and thought there was something to scrutinise there, then you would have given it a thought - and even a slight thought would have told you immediately there wasn't. So can we infer that you actually didn't care? If you don't care to think about it that little as to see there's nothing to speculate there, then it would look like you are not caring about it. But still you wish to say that aloud, that "his vote should be scrutinised", which makes me think you were more concentrated on thinking how to make yourself look concerned than being actually concerned about the possibility of learning whether winty-w is good or bad (like if you knew it already or something?) - and just didn't realised that what you suggested might look good but when looked at more closely turns out ridiculous for anyone who is actually interested in on what side winty-w is...

Blah. I hope even someone gets what I mean as I'm getting quite frustrated with this nasty thing called language...

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

(~~~) *grin re-emerging*

EDIT: X'd from Lommy's list onwards...

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

__________________Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...

I know this reasoning is outrageously bad, but I'll tell it anyway because it's what I'm thinking: I'm kind of afraid that Lottie will become this typical Day 1 easy lynch (ordo), but then again, she's the only one I have any valid point at all, so

Had this argument last time maybe I should do this "so and so "FEELS" off" somehow acceptable me seeing something I find odd and pointing it out that's weird?

Anywho... No one pops out want to vote agan... but won't because That Would be knee jerk... I do have to vote soon though

(Responding to post 80 forgot to quote it.)

Sorry but would you care to speak English that's understandable even to a non-native speaker so I don't have to spend a twice longer time reading your post than I would need for anyone else?

As you might have noticed I didn't play in last game. And it's perfectly alright to point out what you find odd, but your thought process in the post I found suspicious seemed half-hearted and lazy and somehow far-fetched too (the part that Lommy or someone else pointed out). Give better reasons for your suspicions and I might change my mind about you.

But yeah as for now

++Mirandir

because thus far she seems the most suspicious to me.

oh and

--Mirandir++Mirandir

as I dislike retrackies anyway, and this is what I think everyone should do because otherwise the wolves will probably use them against us in the end.

I know this reasoning is outrageously bad, but I'll tell it anyway because it's what I'm thinking: I'm kind of afraid that Lottie will become this typical Day 1 easy lynch (ordo), but then again, she's the only one I have any valid point at all, so

++ Lottie

EDIT: eek x-ed since Boro

Sorry, dear, but could you clarify this? Do you mean you have any valid points on her or that she's the only one with valid points? I'm not sure what you mean.

Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves

Posts: 9,051

(~~~) *grin emerging*

My tea-time is coming to an end as well as I have a tough morning tomorrow. So a few thoughts, a list-like thingy, a vote and to sleep...

I don't think that "seen as an ordo" or "seen as an innocent" is anything more than just two different phrases to say the same thing. Otherwise it would be pointless to make that distinction as either one would then be clear to the seer and WilwAlirin could have just told us so.

I'm also a bit uneasy about this quite rapid lynching-queue that emerged for Lottie. It's not that I think her particularly innocent (vice versa) but the easiness by which it just came about... Needs to look at it.

Someone (Agan?) compared the retrackies to the phantom's game where people had 10 extra-votes and how the wolves kept them and in the end ran over the innocents with their pile of votes. I don't think that is a good comparison. A retraction is a good idea when you are not sure you can be back before the DL and need to vote just to be sure you vote - and then you suddenly are able to come back and major things have happened meanwhile. I don't like retractions everyDay or any unlimited retrackies, but one for the whole game is quite good: it serves the possible need and doesn't give too much leeway for the wolves to play tactics with them. But well, anybody's decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agan

Hey Nog you posted the same post twice.

Yeah. I saw it and deleted the other one.

Heh, I can see there is a new fashion in town, getting rid of the retrackies... how nice.

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

__________________Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...

[
I think we really should keep track on who has used their retraction and who hasn't, and that everyone should use them asap, because as I've said they are more useful to the wolves than to us.

Okay, I'm not accusing you of anything, sweetheart, but a retractable vote is useful for anyone, is it not? I certainly can see how wolves could use retractions to great advantage late in the game but why the haste?

__________________"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

I know this reasoning is outrageously bad, but I'll tell it anyway because it's what I'm thinking: I'm kind of afraid that Lottie will become this typical Day 1 easy lynch (ordo), but then again, she's the only one I have any valid point at all, so

Aww, think it's an easy lynch, but still go for it because cant think of anything else? Sad story. I still call it hogwash haug-hwassssh and wolves hwol-vee-ss like their hogs I hear. (Question: do they like they're hogs washed too? )

__________________
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

Why I find that suspicious then? If you were an innocent and thought there was something to scrutinise there, then you would have given it a thought - and even a slight thought would have told you immediately there wasn't. So can we infer that you actually didn't care? If you don't care to think about it that little as to see there's nothing to speculate there, then it would look like you are not caring about it. But still you wish to say that aloud, that "his vote should be scrutinised", which makes me think you were more concentrated on thinking how to make yourself look concerned than being actually concerned about the possibility of learning whether winty-w is good or bad (like if you knew it already or something?) - and just didn't realised that what you suggested might look good but when looked at more closely turns out ridiculous for anyone who is actually interested in on what side winty-w is...

The whole thing wasn't really aboutww at all. I was agreeing with Nerwen that his vote ought to be looked at, and disagreeing with Agan's wariness of Nerwen for doing just that. You're grasping at straws, mate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey Nog you posted the same post twice.

Sorry but would you care to speak English that's understandable even to a non-native speaker so I don't have to spend a twice longer time reading your post than I would need for anyone else?

As you might have noticed I didn't play in last game. And it's perfectly alright to point out what you find odd, but your thought process in the post I found suspicious seemed half-hearted and lazy and somehow far-fetched too (the part that Lommy or someone else pointed out). Give better reasons for your suspicions and I might change my mind about you.

But yeah as for now

++Mirandir

because thus far she seems the most suspicious to me.

oh and

--Mirandir
++Mirandi

as I dislike retrackies anyway, and this is what I think everyone should do because otherwise the wolves will probably use them against us in the end.

Why is Mira the most suspicious to you, my dear? Possibly you said so already and I just missed it.
Anyway, I agree that wolves can make good use of a retractable vote, but so can the good side. What happens if one votes early, then has to contend with a Seer reveal, or something of that nature toward the end of the Day? Being able to retract comes in handy then. So I'm not retracting unless I see a need for it.

Also, I think I agree with the Boropillar that this push against Lottie looks bad.

Plans? I have none last few times it came down to my vote I made the wolves win, I'm going to try Not to repeat that

Okay... I wanted to say that generally, I dislike the idea of using up retractions when we already have them, as that kind of ruins the point, but then again that I understand the danger hidden in that, but now that Morsul said it... I know exactly what he is referring to, because it happened in the game I have modded, on the last Day he voted early, Wolves bandwaggoned it, and the Wolves won. On the other hand, such things can be (in most cases) avoided with careful reasoning before voting. Also, of course, if people decide to keep their votes, it would have the point only in the case if they keep it for really until late, otherwise it might end up just with the scenario outlined by the retraction-opponents, that is, that all innocents use up their retractions in a few first Days' voting and the WWs then all have their retractions and outsmart the village.

EDIT: x-ed since Agan changed her avvie (so basically since the post I quote)

__________________"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."

Like "and where might you know that from, Nightly talks perchance?" although you probably have another explanation for that... or do you? (Only a totally stupid Wolf would, however, do that. Which makes me think that, if this does not have any logical explanation, you might be a Cobbler wanting us to think you are a Wolf and knowing it - thus making a blind shot - which would be funnily underlined now if WW said "I am a she", nah but whatever, I assume this is useless speculation as you probably have an explanation.)

I know him in RL, dear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I seem to recall seeing her post on Facebook, trying to convince TGEW to join and telling that if she did three Alaskans would be playing... so I assume that's the explanation.

Yup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Eurgh. Sorry. My concentration is poor today.

I know this reasoning is outrageously bad, but I'll tell it anyway because it's what I'm thinking: I'm kind of afraid that Lottie will become this typical Day 1 easy lynch (ordo), but then again, she's the only one I have any valid point at all, so

[*highlight]++ Lottie[/highlight*]

EDIT: eek x-ed since Boro

Okay. Seriously? I think we need to stop lynched Little Lottie Day 1 every game.

~~~

Sally's in a teacup,
Little Dormouse.
What are you hiding?
Does Glirdy know?
If we go to lynch you,
What will we find?
Ordo, wolfie, or special kind?
Ordo, wolfie, or special kind?

^no, really, I want to know. I think you're looking rather evil, but...

EDIT: xed with peoples and will be leaving until about an hour before dl.

__________________
I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night.

Sorry it took me so long....Those horse radishes were being rather stubborn, stampeding all of the place and trampling my feet.... Sheez...(AKA: Read the Admin thread). And now there are so many people that I don't think I have enough tea Well, we shall make do!! And Sally, what have I said about that tea pot!! Anywhoseits, I shall return again after I have read all these posts.

__________________I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!

Sorry it took me so long....Those horse radishes were being rather stubborn, stampeding all of the place and trampling my feet.... Sheez...(AKA: Read the Admin thread). And now there are so many people that I don't think I have enough tea Well, we shall make do!! And Sally, what have I said about that tea pot!! Anywhoseits, I shall return again after I have read all these posts.

I'm also a bit uneasy about this quite rapid lynching-queue that emerged for Lottie. It's not that I think her particularly innocent (vice versa) but the easiness by which it just came about... Needs to look at it.

It makes me also uneasy now given how smoothly it goes and how so many people are going for it, however, it's the first time I am actually suspecting Lottie in a game (as my primary suspect), which I think didn't happen this far... so I am just going to go with that too and hope that the queue is a result of the fact that she really is suspicious. I'd like to hope that in the worst case, she's "only" a Cobbler.

A few more minutes... and probably voting and going to sleep.

EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy, Sally and Catnod.

__________________"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."

Someone (Agan?) compared the retrackies to the phantom's game where people had 10 extra-votes and how the wolves kept them and in the end ran over the innocents with their pile of votes.

Imagine some innocents, a couple of wolves. The innocents have used (most of) their retractions, the wolves haven't. The wolves can vote for whomever is the most convenient for them and then, when most other votes have been given, unite and direct their votes towards an innocent who is lynched, and nobody else can do anything. Because I can see that scenario, I'd rather eliminate it before the wolves have even a chance to try it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

Okay, I'm not accusing you of anything, sweetheart, but a retractable vote is useful for anyone, is it not?

Mmh yeah but the wolves have the advantage of being able to talk in private. That way they can make plans about using the votes, among other things, whereas whatever we others say, the wolves see it too. And the wolves are fine with killing anybody but one of them, while it's not quite so simple for us. So even if the retractable votes might be useful for us, we can't really base our plans on them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why is Mira the most suspicious to you, my dear? Possibly you said so already and I just missed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

Mira. Suspecting newbies is just way too easy, and at the same time she clears Fea's vote (despite the 'on a more serious note' start, the whole comment looked like a joke though).

Mostly because of this comment though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mira

wintywinty's vote is more suspicious. I do agree with whoever suggested it might be of a wolfish nature and xe was told to act newbieish to allay suspicion. Or it could be a newbie mistake.

Basically, "It's suspicious because it could go either way."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inzil

Anyway, I agree that wolves can make good use of a retractable vote, but so can the good side. What happens if one votes early, then has to contend with a Seer reveal, or something of that nature toward the end of the Day?

Might happen. However it's always best for the seer to not reveal during the last-minute voting frenzy.
Also, retractable votes and the 'who receives the highest number of votes last' rule are a bad combination in the case of a tie because if a wolf (or somebody else) wants to drive a lynch, they wait till the last possible moment, retract and vote again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

*concurs* I kept thinking there was a new player but then looked to the side and saw it was you...

Haha sorry. On one hand I'm sorry to let go of my previous avvie (a Goya painting ♥) but on the other hand... Scar is Scar, and worth another ♥.

Okay I'll go to sleep now, night babies.

__________________and he came, knelt down before him and fell upon his knees
I will give you gold and mountains if you stay a while with me

Last edited by Aganzir; 04-08-2010 at 04:04 PM.
Reason: xed since Lottie

I've a friend that's ill and am organizing a bit of "yay let's make the poor girl feel better" stuff. That said, I may or may not be going to a meeting in a couple hours (no, really, I haven't decided if I'm going yet or not) so I may not be around much. I'm working on analyzing the votes between all the other stuff but I don't seem to be able to multitask worth a muffin (<3) today so I'm a bit slow.

Thiiiis vote on Lottie bothers me. Partiiiiiially because it seems like we lynch her first a lot, and partiiiially because the reasoning on the bandwagon isn't superb.

Right now I think Morsul is the most suspicious for his comment about wanting everyone to use up their retractions, but keeping his own.

__________________
Shasta– ... However, if he's innocent his famous clairvoyant powers must be taking the week off. Meanwhile, the Night-kills have been awfully effective– almost like we're dealing with a psychic wolf... - Nerwen, WW LXXV

Imagine some innocents, a couple of wolves. The innocents have used (most of) their retractions, the wolves haven't. The wolves can vote for whomever is the most convenient for them and then, when most other votes have been given, unite and direct their votes towards an innocent who is lynched, and nobody else can do anything. Because I can see that scenario, I'd rather eliminate it before the wolves have even a chance to try it.

Well... one thing to say however is that if they do it at any early date, they will expose themselves and consequently get lynched for that. So it's not really as easily misuseable.

Quote:

Mmh yeah but the wolves have the advantage of being able to talk in private. That way they can make plans about using the votes, among other things, whereas whatever we others say, the wolves see it too.

The Shiriffs can talk too, when we are speaking of it. Which is a positive thing here.

__________________"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."

Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves

Posts: 9,051

(~~~) *grin emerging*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inzil

The whole thing wasn't really about ww at all. I was agreeing with Nerwen that his vote ought to be looked at, and disagreeing with Agan's wariness of Nerwen for doing just that. You're grasping at straws, mate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

*sigh* Now I suppose we have to decide whether this is innocent or guilty-looking. Would a wolfywolfy's* packmates have shown him the ropes on Night One, and told him not to do this? Or would they have left him in the dark in the hope that he'd look like a confused innocent? Or is he, in fact, innocent? You know, the usual.

Anyway, Mr Tweedledum, let me tell you that voting completely randomly is not well thought of, even on Day One.

So something to scrutinise, eh? And really, it's of no importance whether it was "about ww" or not. Maybe I just didn't manage to make myself clear then anyway...

Well, this seems to be running out of proportion anyway. And remember being suspected and defending oneself is not only a fight against the gallows, but also a chance to make others to trust you more. Before I posted my remarks on you the first time I couldn't say anything about you Inzil, but now I can. Well I have a picture - which is far from definitive or anything - but it is a picture of sorts rather than just a blank canvas.

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

__________________Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...

Last edited by Nogrod; 04-08-2010 at 04:18 PM.
Reason: corrected the quote-sender: it was of course Inzil and not Izzy... :(

Mmh yeah but the wolves have the advantage of being able to talk in private. That way they can make plans about using the votes, among other things, whereas whatever we others say, the wolves see it too. And the wolves are fine with killing anybody but one of them, while it's not quite so simple for us. So even if the retractable votes might be useful for us, we can't really base our plans on them...

I understood your reasoning from the beginning. But with your angle, holding on to this option would appear suspicious and for wolves to retract his or her vote early on would divert attention away from them unless all others quickly follow suit.

__________________"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

Right now I think Morsul is the most suspicious for his comment about wanting everyone to use up their retractions, but keeping his own.

Well, didn't he just say "you can use your votes all you want, but I am not using mine"? There's no hypocrisy in that, only a difference in opinion... or that's what I thought.

Anyway...

++Lottie

Good night.

__________________"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."