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As I look back on some of my training, I do see where the drills and exercises we did simultaneously trained distancing and timing, as well as reorganized our bodies, forming them to better express technique, which could be seen as the very beginning stages of internal training, I suppose.

Actually that seems to be a common thread in Shodokan training. Shote awase is a perfect case in point - unless you are told it can just be a hip thrusting exercise but done right its all about alignment and focus. The problem is that some are not told enough and some don't listen when they are told. I suppose that is training experience. Personally I want people taking on a wall and thinking what they are doing rather than the paired exercise. Working with a mismatched partner can work against the experience but a wall is always the perfect match - and it doesn't talk back.

Tegatana dosa is another exercise whose movements need to be understood for proper execution and body development.

Shodokan dogma is that all the secrets are revealed in the first class - it just takes time to understand and appreciate them. Oh and the right teacher.

Actually that seems to be a common thread in Shodokan training. Shote awase is a perfect case in point - unless you are told it can just be a hip thrusting exercise but done right its all about alignment and focus. The problem is that some are not told enough and some don't listen when they are told. I suppose that is training experience. Personally I want people taking on a wall and thinking what they are doing rather than the paired exercise. Working with a mismatched partner can work against the experience but a wall is always the perfect match - and it doesn't talk back.

Tegatana dosa is another exercise whose movements need to be understood for proper execution and body development.

Shodokan dogma is that all the secrets are revealed in the first class - it just takes time to understand and appreciate them. Oh and the right teacher.

Robert - Just a word of caution. If you do find a teacher who can give you work to do on internal training, it may be difficult to do outwardly in your current class. Your current teacher may not be very accepting of any variations on what he is teaching, or his methods. It may be difficult to get regular practice in outside your regular class.

That said, I can make a suggestion to you of an instructor in Texas, send me an email if you like.

Mr. Feldman, do you have any experience with his current instructor? If not, and "if you like", you "may" consider that you "may not" know enough to suggest that Robert would be looking for another instructor in Texas when he lives in Oklahoma.

Robert - Just a word of caution. If you do find a teacher who can give you work to do on internal training, it may be difficult to do outwardly in your current class. Your current teacher may not be very accepting of any variations on what he is teaching, or his methods. It may be difficult to get regular practice in outside your regular class.

That said, I can make a suggestion to you of an instructor in Texas, send me an email if you like.

Actually, one of the aspects of Jiyushinkai training that I've been, frankly, shocked and humbled by is the student's and the instructor's attitude of always being open to new approaches and ideas. I've only been training with them for about 2 months, and I've already made some tremendous strides in my practice, just in terms of the quality of my training. I am fully confident that, in the unlikely event that I would have anything new to offer our class in terms of internal training, my instructor would not only allow us to explore it, but would be excited to try a new approach to an old puzzle.

Clark Sensei -
We worked on koshi waza recently, and I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed myself. I learned o-goshi, uki-goshi, and tsurikomi-goshi a long time ago at another school, and doing those types of techniques from the Jiyushinkai approach was eye opening, indeed. I'm having a fantastic time training with Martin Sensei.

Going back to some of what was said about Kito Ryu in HIPS and what I have gleaned from some historical Aiki research, Aiki waza should have the ability to totally anchor ones attacker to the ground on contact (To - falling), or float their weight (Ki - rising) on contact so balance is taken totally and immediately on contact with a person who has the right skills. A third expression of Aiki waza (and attributed to internal training I think) is that skill of "disappearing" when one attempts to strike or grab, part of which comes from manipulation of ma ai (space) and leading of ones attacker. Another part of this comes from skill in powerful, sudden, relaxed, fully controlled movement.

This reminds me of the symbol of Shodokan - taken from the Ten no Maki of Kito Ryu - The last line in Tomiki's descriptions says "This symbol is composed of red representing fire, blue representing water and white representing infinite space."

Imho: Red = Fire = rising (Ki) = floating kuzushi, Blue = water = falling(To) = grounding kuzushi, White = infinite space = ma ai control and leading (effects being "disappearing" and creation of a "void" with movement). These are all found in the Nanahon no Kuzushi exercise aka Nage no Kata Omote.

I may be reaching here but it seems like Tomiki may have left a lot of information lying around in plain sight for us to discover.

Larry - that is really fascinating. I cannot believe that Tomiki merely wanted to pretty up his symbol with something old. Given the accounts of his skill, I'm sure that you are right.
I have a lot of doubt that there was a direct transmission in Kito-ryu, for reasons outlined in the book.
There is still some Kito-ryu in Japan - but it is unclear to me if this is a reconstruction of the kata by a couple of judoka, or a direct transmission.
I don't like to volunteer people, without their say-so, so I'm sending a PM regarding a possible resource (whom you probably know).

Going back to some of what was said about Kito Ryu in HIPS and what I have gleaned from some historical Aiki research, Aiki waza should have the ability to totally anchor ones attacker to the ground on contact (To - falling), or float their weight (Ki - rising) on contact so balance is taken totally and immediately on contact with a person who has the right skills. A third expression of Aiki waza (and attributed to internal training I think) is that skill of "disappearing" when one attempts to strike or grab, part of which comes from manipulation of ma ai (space) and leading of ones attacker. Another part of this comes from skill in powerful, sudden, relaxed, fully controlled movement.

This reminds me of the symbol of Shodokan - taken from the Ten no Maki of Kito Ryu - The last line in Tomiki's descriptions says "This symbol is composed of red representing fire, blue representing water and white representing infinite space."

Imho: Red = Fire = rising (Ki) = floating kuzushi, Blue = water = falling(To) = grounding kuzushi, White = infinite space = ma ai control and leading (effects being "disappearing" and creation of a "void" with movement). These are all found in the Nanahon no Kuzushi exercise aka Nage no Kata Omote.

I may be reaching here but it seems like Tomiki may have left a lot of information lying around in plain sight for us to discover.
Of course I also reserve the right to be totally wrong.
Thoughts?
LC

Question
How is anyone sure of his meaning regardles of his skill?
There are other reasons for teachers to adopt more classical vernacular and symbology in their formal presentations that had not to do with their present state of understanding. In other words, Tomiki's choice for formal presentaion might have gone beyond "prettying up his symbol" to a choice of keeping it in line and validating it with a classical model. His own explanation might have revealed his level of understanding and have been stated "in plain site" instead of hidden in plain site.
There are any number of very good men from the aiki line who really have no vernacular worth discussing in regards to the classical paradigm in what they did.
I think there is a pronounced tendency of late to revisit some of these things and "add" meaning that we may know is true (of classical models) to Japanese teachers who really only borrowed it for use in formally validating their symbols and arts.
Case in point; below is the full quote with Tomiki's expanded definition (bold added to accent his own definition)

Quote:

The inspiration for this symbol comes from one of the old texts of Kitoryu Jujitsu called Ten no Maki (Scroll of Heaven). This text explains that the characters meaning rise and fall represent the opposites active and passive respectively. Being active can lead to victory but so can being passive by weakness overcoming strength.
The character meaning rise signifies the power of fire, the character meaning fall signifies the power of water. The sun is a source of energy and water has no form or thought but simply adapts to its environment. However, water has the power to outrival everything, to nourish all things yet remain humble. These are the strengths of the most virtuous people and it is said that virtue is the same as water in this sense.
This symbol is composed of red representing fire, blue representing water and white representing infinite space.
Kenji Tomiki
Head of Shodokan
28th March 1976

Coupled with the Japanese tendency to like to find multiple meanings in things, and the well used admonitions given here over and over that the translations are not always trustworthy (contextually and culturally) it can get a bit hazy.
I had a similar conversation with a friend about another VERY capable teacher in the aiki lineage line choosing to use a model of the six-directions in his arts symbol and the presumption that it could mean the classical model of six direction training. I did an ahah! Upon discussion it had absolutely nothing to do with the classical model but it sure sounded compelling-on the surface. Particularly with who he was.

At a point I think we have to be willing to accept that many of the Asian teachers didn't get it either (in whole or in part) and we need to carefully examine where we may be just grasping at straws to retrofit an understanding to a teacher who never had anything beyond a cursory intention of trying to "look" classical in their formal symbology, regardless of their abilities, as opposed to those who knew exactly what they were talking about, but could not really do much, on to all of those somewhere in between. Further, are we willing to accept or discuss that some of the guys we know who did "get it" and got it rather well, in the end really had "gotten it" intuitively and had no classical vernacular to use in the first place, while others had direct training models to go by?
That is a whole other discussion to be had.
I'm not making a statement other than to point out that presumption- either way- can discredit the discussion.

Like Larry, of course I also reserve the right to be totally wrong! Wait I didn't state anything-I just asked questions.
Cheers
Dan

Going back to some of what was said about Kito Ryu in HIPS and what I have gleaned from some historical Aiki research, Aiki waza should have the ability to totally anchor ones attacker to the ground on contact (To - falling), or float their weight (Ki - rising) on contact so balance is taken totally and immediately on contact with a person who has the right skills. A third expression of Aiki waza (and attributed to internal training I think) is that skill of "disappearing" when one attempts to strike or grab, part of which comes from manipulation of ma ai (space) and leading of ones attacker. Another part of this comes from skill in powerful, sudden, relaxed, fully controlled movement.

This reminds me of the symbol of Shodokan - taken from the Ten no Maki of Kito Ryu - The last line in Tomiki's descriptions says "This symbol is composed of red representing fire, blue representing water and white representing infinite space."

Imho: Red = Fire = rising (Ki) = floating kuzushi, Blue = water = falling(To) = grounding kuzushi, White = infinite space = ma ai control and leading (effects being "disappearing" and creation of a "void" with movement). These are all found in the Nanahon no Kuzushi exercise aka Nage no Kata Omote.

I may be reaching here but it seems like Tomiki may have left a lot of information lying around in plain sight for us to discover.

Dan has a point. It is very difficult to determine what someone's meanings might be based on his skill as a martial artist alone. Martial skill and deep knowledge about the history of Japanese Budo etc. are two very different fields of study.

But Tomiki was a scholar of Japanese Budo on many levels, seeing very early on how his Aikido and Judo training fit within the greater reality of all Japanese Budo and the place of Aiki waza within the overall scheme of Japanese armed and unarmed Budo.

... with Ueshiba's permission, went to Manchukuo to teach as an instructor of Ueshiba-ryu Aikijujitsu. His techniques were praised enthusiastically by the chief of staff Hideki Tojo which promoted the spread of aikido there. In March of 1936 he became a lecturer at the Daido Institute that had been established in Manchukuo. In the spring of 1938 he moved to the newly established Kenkoku University lecturing in budo and was in charge of a new course in aikibudo (the name used by Ueshiba at that time) on the curriculum.

From this period Tomiki made great progress in his research and he wrote various books and papers, such as 'The Future Of Judo and Aikibudo' (1937), explaining the significance of judo and budo in aikibudo. As a result, he received recognition and support from many people in budo and judo including Jiro Nango, the second president of Kodokan.

Imho it is known that Tomiki was well studied in Budo history and physical education, using these skills to develop not only Aiki Budo but also Kodokan Judo (the development of the Kime no kata readily comes to mind). So imho he knew exactly what the symbol from the Ten no Maki of Kito Ryu meant and would also know precisely why he selected that symbol and its accompanying concepts to represent his school of Aikido. Of course Dan's point still holds true in that we are reading an English translation of what Tomiki said in the website above and not the original Japanese. But I think given the evidence of the man's high level of theoretical and physical studies in Budo the connection between the Shodokan symbol and Kito Ryu is far from mere coincidence.

To Peter and Ellis, it's good to have the support of people who know a lot more than I do. I am learning from you guys all the time.

That is one of the simplest, truest and most relevant statements I have ever heard. And it goes just as well for almost everything one does. Absorb everything... use what you can... don't sweat the rest. Words to live by.

Hello Larry
I was actually trying to suggest something more in the middle; of Tomiki supposedly knowing, or mostly knowing, or partially knowing, or being very good but not really knowing specific means to teach it. It's sort of in between you and Ellis's points. My contention is that there is a way to learn by intuition not real knowledge. I have seen it first hand and a way to learn with exact language of body parts and hands-on approach that is more defining.

1. Ellis was correct in that Tomiki supposedly "had it."
2. But we have little except some personal anecdotes to go by. So that is as "up in the air" as people wanting to leave Daito ryu as a maybe-or-maybe-not, as Ueshiba's source of power.
It's all "up for grabs."
3. The choice of symbol means little to me. I mentioned the fact that other Japanese teachers choose classical symbols for their arts. So what?
4. The definitive language of what was happening in the body would have been the smoking gun for me-not a symbol. And it failed.
If you read Shirata's descriptions of his breathing exercises they will prove to be as useless to an outsider as much everything else most Japanese teachers produce; a bunch of nonsense that could have otherwise been taught in detail and with actual and real body parts being discussed and far better descriptions rendered. Again it's all up in the air and loyal students will debate it so…..

5. Last, and more importantly the thrust of my previous post-was to ask to consider that there was and are men who "got it" -to one degree or another -who cannot teach that well. Some, I have met who had some ability- seem to have really learned it intuitively-mostly through kata. In other words, not everyone has a real depth and not everyone can even manage to teach what they DO know in a manner that surpasses guesswork and experimentation by them and their students and produces consistent results by way of internals in anyone.

Internal training in whole or in part
There is little in writing of specific training. There are those who teach specific training. It is worthwhile to look past many of these guys -to meet and feel "their guys" and who has it or not. My own views are that there are definitive ways to teach that bring about usable skills in people. I have been doing it for years. I have no patience with these guys who can't teach but call themselves teachers.
Case in point: I was listening to a certain guy go on and on about his teacher and his skills and power.
I asked him "How long have you been training with him?"
The answer was "Decades! I am one of his senior men."
I then asked
"What the hell happened to you?"
At a certain point it is the student's responsibility as well. But there is no way...NO WAY, these people should feel the way they do even after 5 years. Twenty- that's inexcusable for their teachers and them. Were this a professional performance review- many of these teachers would get justifiably thrown out for poor results. True master class guys who can actually fight, and who can and will actually teach are rare jewels. I said that ten years ago. Not much has changed, I'll have to see what the next ten years bring.

It is my hope that as a group, we are going to take care of ourselves and change all of this. In the end it will at least help open the eyes of those training, to be able to differentiate from external fighting ability with zero internal skills, to poor skills, to middling skills, and then they can help themselves find real experts. I am finding it interesting to read some of the aikido teachers who have recently stated they are "somewhere in the middle" with internal skills after meeting one or two guys. I find that fascinating on several levels. I would only continue to encourage people to go feel those who supposedly have it and see how they feel and what they are teaching and if their students have anything even worth discussing!

My book doesn't get into the specifics of internal training (well the last chapter tells how to become Osensei in 16 easy lessons, but I suggest psychedelic mushrooms among the training tools, so I don't know how much I can be trusted . . .).

Is there actually a book that does explain the specifics of internal training? Apart from trying mushrooms...
Where explained how to achieve internal strength, how to use it, etc...

In other words, is there anyone here on the forum who has experienced internal power and can do some tricks with it? And can learn how to achieve that to others here on the forum?
I guess no...

In other words, is there anyone here on the forum who has experienced internal power and can do some tricks with it? And can learn how to achieve that to others here on the forum?
I guess no...

Might be misreading what you're trying to ask.

1. Are you asking if there's anyone at Aikiweb who has gotten hands on experience with some people who have internal power *and* then had some sort of advancement in skills from training with them?

2. On the last question, I'm reading that as, Can anyone teach these skills through Aikiweb forum posts?

IMO and IME:

As for #1, I have seen very good progressive abilities in other people who have started training internal skills/aiki stuff. They seem to be getting better and better throughout the last 3 years or so (since they started). The short answer to your question is that, yes, there is advancement.

As to #2. No. It Has To Be Felt and you have to have someone teaching you with hands on experience. The good news is that you can do this from a distance. It isn't as fast, it certainly isn't easy, and you still have to make a minimum number of trips per year to get hands on teaching ... but it can be done.

As a side note, if you mean can someone travel to get hands on experience, then come back to their area, and teach what they learned to people they know who want to train but couldn't make the trip themselves --- the answer to that is yes.

2. On the last question, I'm reading that as, Can anyone teach these skills through Aikiweb forum posts?

I see, well I meant if it's possible to learn doing Internal Training by self-teaching, by reading books about it and doing the exercises at home.

I guess in my neighbourhood no one knows about Internal Training. In my club, I haven't heard talking about things like that, it's just normal aikikai aikido.
I guess, if it's only possible to achieve it by training with others who have understanding about that, I'd have to move country

So actually, on the 500 people here on board, there is 0,4% of them that can achieve that ability caused by their casual training in aikido.

I said there probably are some others, but I have no right to speak for them. Dan and Mike have claimed a certain amount of skill on this forum, so I felt I could mention them.

Quote:

But how many % can achieve that ability when training specifically on Internal Training?

Plenty. They just need a good teacher, motivation, intelligence and an inquisitive mind.

Quote:

And how much do you have to train for that?

One hour a day will do fine. You can even take the weekend off.

Quote:

So Joep, you tried practicing that and didn't achieve anything?

Still practicing. Achieving stuff as well, but haven't achieved enough to make claims on this forum.
But let me give it another try:

Quote:

Dirk Desmet wrote:

In other words, is there anyone here on the forum who has experienced internal power and can do some tricks with it? And can learn how to achieve that to others here on the forum?

I have experienced it and can do some tricks with it. Haven't tried teaching yet, but I can explain the stuff I can do. However, my skills are very limited: I can show some basic things to someone who's interested, but I won't be very convincing to someone skeptical of these skills. And I suck even worse in a more free-style environment.

what do you think you should do on your one hour on? i been doing Wang Ji Wu's, "Body Strengthening and Health Maintenance Exercise", among other stuff as I understand it (fwiw 0%) from Tim Cartmell's "Xing Yi Nei Gong" book. Simple moves. They are his refined 16 moves that he suggests. pretty simple. but...well... you`kno how it goes

Is there actually a book that does explain the specifics of internal training? Apart from trying mushrooms...
Where explained how to achieve internal strength, how to use it, etc...

Sure, but it's like trying to read a calculus book without knowing addition and subtraction first. For example, Shioda's aikido shugyo has some interesting things to say (whilst being pretty vague at times - c'est la vie). Ditto "Chi Kung Empowerment'. There are plenty of free resources too, such as -

Frankly though...why would you bother trying to learn from a book when you opportunity to interact with people who actually have the goods? Mike Sigman and Akuzawa (amongst others) regularly visit Germany, France etc. If you're really interested, I'd suggest going to see them rather then just trying to academically understand the topic

Exercises of which you know how and why to do them. As detailed instructions are hard to come by, I think it's better to practice a 'mediocre' exercise to it's fullest potential than to dabble a bit in the best I.S. exercise ever (if such even exists).

I see, well I meant if it's possible to learn doing Internal Training by self-teaching, by reading books about it and doing the exercises at home.

I guess in my neighbourhood no one knows about Internal Training. In my club, I haven't heard talking about things like that, it's just normal aikikai aikido.
I guess, if it's only possible to achieve it by training with others who have understanding about that, I'd have to move country

I will echo what Mark has said about the distance training; he is doing it and so I am I, as well as others we know.

Also, as Mark mentions, it is possible to take your distance learning and teach locally what you have learned. Mark has done it, which was evident when he and a couple of his students attended a seminar at my place with Dan Harden last December - his guys certainly had some level of aiki going on. In addition, I just hit a break though with a couple of my guys who finally broke through into a new dimension with their mental intent while doing what we call a central pivot exercise. IMO, the hardest thing to teach is the mental intent part. With the outward physical aspects, you can see what's going on, but you can't see into their minds (at least not yet ) You need to keep having them think and visualize different things until they finally get something that feels right. Once that happens, you need to have them zone in on that and have them work with it so they can instantly recognize it and apply it at will in a static and mobile environment. Not easy, but once they get to that point, then the real training can begin.