1. Flying magical jedi space jesus.2. That the above is Leia. This was literally the strangest, dumbest thing they could have done. The entire sequence was unnecessary, sets up nothing, and was freaking strange.3. We spend like an hour with the movie fanboying over Luke Skywalker, and getting him to leave the island. He doesn't leave the island.4. The entire plot could have been replaced with a reasonable thirty second conversation between people on the same team with nothing better to do, and basically everyone would be alive. Everyone prefers to be a smarmy dicks instead of reasonably addressing problems.5. The above is referring to the Rebels. I'd be okay with the Imperials being smarmy dicks instead of raving lunatics.6. There is a complete lack of consistency. As one example, you can, on screen, see nearly all the speeders destroyed, and then all but one turn back. It's a plot point. It's very clear, and they take great pains to show this. That one is then intercepted by another one coming from ahead of it. This is not even vaguely reasonable given what we are shown.7. The Rebellion is now like twelve people. So much for Space Opera.8. Rey's parents, despite being teased endlessly, never appear, and are simply said to be nobodys. Again. WHY BRING ALL THIS UP TO BEGIN WITH? It's a stupid mystery with no payoff.9. Lightspeed physics in the new movies just works at the speed of plot. Interdiction cruisers no longer exist, spacegas works in very finite, fixed ways that make no sense. And suicide bombing is awesome. And shockingly effect, to the point where you wonder why nobody has ever done this before. And totally respected. Until ten minutes later, when it's morally unacceptable.10. Janitor becomes secret agent/fighter pilot in approximately ten minutes with no training. In fairness, this is still a less ludicrous power jump than Rey demonstrates.11. They enumerate the number of transports, and take pains to show them all, with many exploding. Every time they cut back to it, there are more transports there to be exploded. It's sorta at ol-cowboy-movie-six-shooter levels of dumb.12. The Rebels built a base, and forgot it was there, until someone we've never seen before remembers it in the third act. Fortunately, it was in exactly the right place for the newly limited spacegas to get them to. Also, they don't remember that it has a second door. Despite the doors being goddamned huge. And the second door being directly in LOS to the first door. They literally failed at looking across a room.13. Luke materializes a heretofore unknown set of dice as a meaningful present for Leia, across half a galaxy, solely to fake out the audience.14. Evil BB8 functions as the Captain Phasma of this movie, appearing solely for the plot-essential reason of providing merchandising for the holiday season.15. Endless Deus Ex Machinas. Look, it's star wars, I expect the storm troopers to always miss, and the heroes to luckily happen onto exactly the right circumstances to do the heroic thing. That's fine. A giant fireball around non-jedi heroes, killing the like, hundred people around them, but leaving them entirely unharmed, is maybe a bit much. It's just endless plot armor. Oh look, suddenly there's an elevator here for no reason whatsoever, when it didn't exist a second previously. Probably also created by the explosion.16. Lightsaber-whips.17. So, the guys in red, right? Cool fight scene, sure. But are they the emperor's guard, or the knights of Ren? Why do they draw their weapons on Snoke when he threatens Kylo, but then later, in the next Snoke/Kylo conflict, side with Snoke? If they are not the Knights of Ren, who the crap is? Do people continue to exist, or have motivations? Who knows?18. The power curve of a single X-wing being a match for a ridiculously large even-bigger-star-destroyer is kind of insane. They're not even bothering with weak spots anymore, it's just...why are there all these increasingly large superweapons, if they're inferior to smaller ships straight up?

Just saw it and agree with some of these and disagree with some others. Comments below:

Spoiler:

1 and 2: Agree it was kinda strange. Guess they're showing Leia has the force. But we knew that and its not really clear how important that was. Its not like they used "survive in vaccuum" force power later (maybe next movie?)3. Im ok with Luke not leaving the island. Seemed a proper "light side" way of dealing with the problem rather than just killing it. 4 and 5: The lack of communication between Leia, Poe and Holdo was absolutely ridiculous. Agreed. I mean Holdo could have said "we have a plan but I'm worried about spies figuring it out" or something rather than just being a dick to Poe.6: Not sure about this. Many speeders were destroyed but I got a feeling there were still a good number left. Would have to re-watch to see. 7: The only thing that makes sense is either MASSIVE reinforcements (which they kinda said weren't around), a major time jump before next movie, or Kylo can't actually hold the first order together and it fractures allowing the resistance to fight back easier. This one could go either way depending on how they do it next movie.8: I'm not sure on this one. It's possibly that was just a lie Kylo was saying anyways. Even if true, I'm not sure I mind her parents being nobodies. 9: I agree with the main problem of the "chase" being the fact the First Order had a ton of other ships. Just hyperspace some in front of the damn Rebel Cruiser. Or all around it? The lightspeed ramming was cool looking but absolutely terrible from a continuity perspective. Why not build big missiles (or asteroids with hyperspace engines) on them as weapons? Seem FAR more effective than Star Destroyers themselves. They took out the big ship and like 5 other SDs with it. Note that the suicide bombing bit was not really contradictory. Rose didn't want FINN to kill himself, she wasn't really making a point against suicide bombing to begin with. Poe just didn't want to sacrifice any more people, I don't think he was opposed to the actual bombing but more losing any people anyways. Granted that was a poor attempt at having him show growth because their other option there was death (since they didn't know about Luke or the other way out at that point).10: Finn didn't really show any real competence in the secret agent bit, nor in the fighter pilot bit. I presume flying a speeder is like driving a car for the Star Wars universe.11: Did they say how many transports they had? I might have missed that but I agree they needed a bigger shot of ALL of them if they wanted to keep focusing in on ones being destroyed. 12: Leia probably knew about the base, but I don't see why the others would know. They weren't necessarily part of the Rebellion back in the day. I presume they joined up the Resistance after the First Order came to light. The other way out was in the mining tunnels (which is what was in LOS of the main door). They scanned the blueprints and didn't find a way out. Now they should have sent some people down the tunnels to at least check but if it was an actual mining complex that could have been pretty big. 13: I think as mentioned here those Dice were from the Falcon and were there in the original trilogy. The fact they were sorta illusions and stayed for a while was a bit odd though I'll give you that.14: Agreed, but I liked evil BB8 anyways.15: The fireball bit I can accept. It would be extremely unlikely to just kill off two main characters essentially offscreen. I agree the elevator part with Phasma was silly. Just have Finn actually beat her if you want that to happen.16: Those whip things existed in the former EU cannon. They were even worse there actually since they were full on lightsaber whips. These ones seemed more like the other vibro weapons and more akin to an Urumi. I do agree that they're a ridiculous weapon to be using though. 17: The guys in Red draw their weapons against Kylo I assume when he steps towards Snoke, even though Snoke immediately puts him down with force lightning. They are definitely Snoke's guards.18: I am surprised at how easily those stupid turrets were to take out. I'm fine with them being unable to target the small fast X-wing since that's what snubfighters are for in the Star Wars universe. But you'd think there'd be some shields or something on them. I assume the starfighters somehow penetrate capital ship shields since both Poe and Kylo later were able to do significant damage to capital ships that clearly still had shields up.

commodorejohn wrote:Compare that with TFA's surfeit of recycled bits and callbacks, which not only never improve on their source, but never even equal it.

I'm pretty sure your view is heavily-tinged by nostalgia (which isn't to say it isn't valid). First time Star Wars has a woman character that's not sexualized and damseled? Pretty great. First Star Wars to have a person of color in a lead role? Pretty great too. Acting all around is MUCH better than the original. Every minute that Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher are on-screen is filled with an emotional weight that stems from the original movie, true, but isn't a rehash of it - it's an expansion on themes we've seen before, and it makes for some of the most emotionally impactful scenes in all Star Wars movies thus far. It has a completely different villain - not to say better or worse than Vader, but someone who has an entirely different set of motives and reactions than Vader does.

Chen wrote:Just saw it and agree with some of these and disagree with some others. Comments below:

Spoiler:

6: Not sure about this. Many speeders were destroyed but I got a feeling there were still a good number left. Would have to re-watch to see. -I was sufficiently bored that I was counting. The red wakes, and the overhead shot of them pulling away/Finn continuing onward matched my counting. 7: The only thing that makes sense is either MASSIVE reinforcements (which they kinda said weren't around), a major time jump before next movie, or Kylo can't actually hold the first order together and it fractures allowing the resistance to fight back easier. This one could go either way depending on how they do it next movie.-Yeah. So far as I can tell, the entire remaining Rebellion fit into the Millenium Falcon. That's...odd. Huge star battles and such are a big part of star wars, the scale of what's left seems strange. 8: I'm not sure on this one. It's possibly that was just a lie Kylo was saying anyways. Even if true, I'm not sure I mind her parents being nobodies. -I don't actually mind her parents being nobodies, that's completely fine. It's more of being annoyed at it being treated like this big mystery if there's no payoff. 9: I agree with the main problem of the "chase" being the fact the First Order had a ton of other ships. Just hyperspace some in front of the damn Rebel Cruiser. Or all around it? The lightspeed ramming was cool looking but absolutely terrible from a continuity perspective. Why not build big missiles (or asteroids with hyperspace engines) on them as weapons? Seem FAR more effective than Star Destroyers themselves. They took out the big ship and like 5 other SDs with it. Note that the suicide bombing bit was not really contradictory. Rose didn't want FINN to kill himself, she wasn't really making a point against suicide bombing to begin with. Poe just didn't want to sacrifice any more people, I don't think he was opposed to the actual bombing but more losing any people anyways. Granted that was a poor attempt at having him show growth because their other option there was death (since they didn't know about Luke or the other way out at that point).10: Finn didn't really show any real competence in the secret agent bit, nor in the fighter pilot bit. I presume flying a speeder is like driving a car for the Star Wars universe.-I refer here to Rose. Finn unfortunately is suffering from Stormtrooper syndrome, where he isn't really getting much in the way of wins. I generally accept troopers flying speeders, because...that's a thing they indeed do. Rose, however, basically came out of nowhere, upstaged Finn, and suddenly was comparatively good at everything. Finn *did* defeat Phasma, but that was an odd contrivance, and anyways, Phasma has also been...kind of useless for two movies now. A lot of this plot seemed to be circling the drain.11: Did they say how many transports they had? I might have missed that but I agree they needed a bigger shot of ALL of them if they wanted to keep focusing in on ones being destroyed. -Twenty, if memory serves. Which is a lot of transports for a cruiser to carry within it, I guess, but meh. Ship classifications in star wars have always been sketchy, can't be too nitpicky here. I've just always been annoyed at shots where it appears they're basically re-using the same "oh look, we're all dying, feel as if there's urgency" gimmick without progression. 13: I think as mentioned here those Dice were from the Falcon and were there in the original trilogy. The fact they were sorta illusions and stayed for a while was a bit odd though I'll give you that.-Yeah, I'll cop to the dice existing, albeit with different symbols on them. But they didn't really have a whole lot of meaning. Han wasn't super defined by them, and they haven't been a particularly iconic representation of him or anything. They existed solely to introduce Luke and sell him as actually showing up(same as the TIE fighter shot in the water, but that's a fair one, I think).15: The fireball bit I can accept. It would be extremely unlikely to just kill off two main characters essentially offscreen. I agree the elevator part with Phasma was silly. Just have Finn actually beat her if you want that to happen.-I don't really think the solution is to kill them off character, but maybe to arrange things in such a way that their survival is more realistic. I mean, not only did the explosion leave them unarmed, but the decapitation weapons that were reasonably close to them vanished as well! Convenient. 16: Those whip things existed in the former EU cannon. They were even worse there actually since they were full on lightsaber whips. These ones seemed more like the other vibro weapons and more akin to an Urumi. I do agree that they're a ridiculous weapon to be using though. -Fair, the EU has had some crazy crap from time to time. It's a shame they keep cribbing the dubious stuff, and not, yknow, giving us Thrawn.17: The guys in Red draw their weapons against Kylo I assume when he steps towards Snoke, even though Snoke immediately puts him down with force lightning. They are definitely Snoke's guards.-The response shot immediately follows Snoke's action, not Kylos, yes? Maybe they just have really slow reactions?18: I am surprised at how easily those stupid turrets were to take out. I'm fine with them being unable to target the small fast X-wing since that's what snubfighters are for in the Star Wars universe. But you'd think there'd be some shields or something on them. I assume the starfighters somehow penetrate capital ship shields since both Poe and Kylo later were able to do significant damage to capital ships that clearly still had shields up.-I dunno? I mean, I'll actually give the space gravity/WW2 style bombing thing a pass, which seems generous. It's not super space like, but eh. It's sort of akin to star wars combat. End of the day, if a single fighter can crush all the defenses of such a giant ship, building that ship would seem to be a waste.

I mean, sure, superweapons were always a *little* over the top, but the original movies sell the death star as something that is a credible threat, and hard to defeat. This does not seem to be the case anymore. Instead we have some confusing moral about how heroism and derring do are not the way to defeat the big evil thing. Despite it appearing to work just fine. That's a really odd place for Star Wars to go.

Zohar wrote:First time Star Wars has a woman character that's not sexualized and damseled?

What's Mon Mothma, chopped liver?

Zohar wrote: First Star Wars to have a person of color in a lead role?

Feh. Lando's more relevant to the plot than Finn is.

Assuming we're just ignoring Vader's voicing in this, as well?

More TLJ gripes:

Spoiler:

It's also really weird that Luke was so murdery. Like, this is the dude that laid down his lightsaber rather than strike Vader.

But he has one feeling, and suddenly he wants to kill his nephew in his sleep.

And then you have him saying things like "I've felt power like this once before. It didn't scare me then; it does now." referring to that moment. So...what, he wasn't even scared and wanted to murder his nephew? How is this making sense?

Yes, Billy D Williams played one of the most relatable characters in the star wars universe. He might have betrayed his friend, but it was a choice between saving the lives of a million people and the life of an irredeemable (as far as Lando knew) if likable scumbag criminal. And after finding out that betrayal wouldnt guarantee freedom for his people, he redeems himself and blows up the death star. But more importantly than being black, he was a black LEADER of his own planet thing. How many movies in the 70s or 80s had that?

Come to think of it, in the star wars universe, minorities are generally better than white people. If you ignore things like the Arabs from ANH (sand people, anyone?) or Asians, Jews and Jamaicans from the prequels (trade federation, Watto, gungans).

It's also really weird that Luke was so murdery. Like, this is the dude that laid down his lightsaber rather than strike Vader.

But he has one feeling, and suddenly he wants to kill his nephew in his sleep.

And then you have him saying things like "I've felt power like this once before. It didn't scare me then; it does now." referring to that moment. So...what, he wasn't even scared and wanted to murder his nephew? How is this making sense?

Not going to go through all the other points you responded to. May have slight disagreement here and there with them but overall I think we're more or less on the same page.

For the new spoiler

Spoiler:

I don't think he was going initially to try and kill him. He was going to him in his sleep to read his mind. When he did that he saw a darkness that for an instant made him think he had to kill him.

The power part I presume was when he first started training or even just first met Ben. The extent of his power in terms of the force should have been present even if he didn't know how far he had fallen to the dark.

I've seen a lot of gripes about this, but if we believe the last recap Luke tells of this, it seems like it was a momentary thing that he is actually ashamed of. I think it's also reinforced by the idea that he may have been right after getting out of the rubble and realizing Ben did slaughter the majority of the temple's students. I can see why someone would be conflicted over something like that. First in the "man I was willing to kill my nephew, what the fuck is wrong with me" and then "crap I DIDN'T kill my nephew and look what the hell happened". Some heavy cognitive dissonance there.

Zohar wrote:First time Star Wars has a woman character that's not sexualized and damseled?

What's Mon Mothma, chopped liver?

Sure, why don't we include Luke's mom in there as well? A grand total of what, 3 minutes of being on-screen? Also people were complaining about TFA not being better than ANH in any way, so the comparison is with ANH.

Feh. Lando's more relevant to the plot than Finn is.

The emperor is more relevant than Han Solo, too - doesn't mean he's a bigger character. Again comparing to ANH but even if not - I'm almost certain that Lando Calrissian appears for a lot less time on-screen than Finn does in TFA.

Assuming we're just ignoring Vader's voicing in this, as well?

No, we're not. Vader's voice actor was black, but the actor playing him physically, the actor appearing at the end of Return of the Jedi, and the character itself is definitely white.

Zohar wrote:I'm pretty sure your view is heavily-tinged by nostalgia (which isn't to say it isn't valid). First time Star Wars has a woman character that's not sexualized and damseled? Pretty great. First Star Wars to have a person of color in a lead role? Pretty great too.

As has already been pointed out, those are both highly disputable claims. Lando at least rises to the level of "major character" if not "lead," and if it weren't for ROTJ's infamous metal bikini, I don't think anybody would ever have mentioned Leia and "sexualized"/"damsel" in the same breath over the last four decades; she's by far the most assertive and in-control of the leads in the original and gets about as many opportunities to back up that attitude with legit derring-do as the boys do over the course of the trilogy.

As for the comparison to TFA's leads...well, no, not really. I like the new kids, honestly I do, but that's almost entirely down to the efforts of the actors themselves; the movie barely establishes their characters, let alone develops them. Finn is an outcast from an army of conformity, which is potentially rich thematic material even if you leave the fact that he's the only black guy we see in a villain cast made up pretty much entirely of white people untouched (which you probably ought to, because transposing present-day/historical racial issues onto far-off fantasy settings that aren't meant as direct allegory is never not weird and awkward.)

But the movie doesn't do anything with that; he gets kicked out, bums around for a bit, falls in with the heroes, and proceeds to sail through the entire rest of the movie with nothing even approaching psychological fallout from having his entire life and identity turned upside-down aside from a brief flirtation with having him be afraid to officially join up with the good guys, but even that never digs into things like the idea that he's gonna be shooting his own former colleagues. It's just there briefly, then it isn't, then we forget all about it and so does the movie.

Rey's even worse; the movie can't even settle on a single characterization for her. Is she a restless, unfulfilled youth dreaming of far-off adventure, like Luke was when we first met him? Is she a scared, wounded woman-child with crippling abandonment issues? Is she a spunky teen genius who's a friend to all the good little droids? Is she an iron-willed survivor capable of winning in a literal battle of wills against the primary antagonist? The answer, apparently, is "all of the above, by turns, whenever it's convenient for the plot." And that's not even getting into the fact that she just spontaneously develops abilities that the previous protagonists actually had to work for anytime the script calls for it, with absolutely no explanation other than that the script calls for it.

The new kids are potentially good character concepts buoyed by excellent casting - but they're nothing more than that. They deserve a better movie to be in, but in the movie they were actually in, they don't amount to much.

Acting all around is MUCH better than the original. Every minute that Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher are on-screen is filled with an emotional weight

Uh, no. No no no no no. Ford at least gets a chance to flex his muscles again (as in Blade Runner 2049, it's so electrifying to see him engaged in a movie again that it's easy to lose track of pretty much anything else.) But his screentime with Fisher is absolutely leaden - not because either of them is failing to put in effort, but because the writing is so profoundly lousy that they simply can't do a thing with it. I lost count of how many times they went 'round the mulberry bush with another variation of "OUR SON, KYLO REN, WHO IS OUR SON, WHO WE CONCEIVED, BY HAVING SEX, TOGETHER, IS ONE OF THE BAD GUYS, BUT YOU WANT TO SAVE HIM, BUT I DO NOT THINK HE IS SAVEABLE, BECAUSE HE IS ONE OF THE BAD GUYS..." etc. etc.

It's a baaaaad movie.

"'Legacy code' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrupwww.commodorejohn.com - in case you were wondering, which you probably weren't.

Of course people are going to mention Leia's bikini because it is absolutely terrible! "If it weren't for all of the sexualization no one would have said she's sexualized"?? And yeah, she's an awesome character otherwise, I agree! I'm not saying ANH is terrible and this movie is superior. But the first time she speaks, the very first time we get an impression of her character, is when her only hope is being saved by a man! That's not being a damsel? Yes, she doesn't only do that, she grows into becoming a fully-fledged character - a benefit of having four movies now that she's had opportunities to respond to criticism.

As for acting in ANH, I dare say Mark Hamill (who's been an amazing actor for decades) was pretty terrible in it, and I don't think Carrie Fisher was particularly great either. You say yourself the only redeeming thing about the new characters is what the actor bring to the role.

I don't know if this has to do with me only seeing ANH (or any Star Wars movies) for the first time when I was 18 or 19, after years of being exposed to later films, but TFA is miles ahead of the prequel trilogy, and definitely one of the more enjoyable Star Wars films.

Zohar wrote:Of course people are going to mention Leia's bikini because it is absolutely terrible! "If it weren't for all of the sexualization no one would have said she's sexualized"??

My point is, that's like five or ten minutes out of over six hours in the original trilogy. And even there, it doesn't meaningfully undercut her characterization; hell, she's the one who strangles the villain of that first act to death while everybody else is up top fighting mooks and trying not to get killed. It's awkward, yes, but balanced against everything else?

I'm not saying ANH is terrible and this movie is superior.

Well, no, that's pretty much exactly what you seem to be saying in regards to these specific characters.

But the first time she speaks, the very first time we get an impression of her character, is when her only hope is being saved by a man!

...you mean the part where she's face-to-face with two of the bad guys' top men, completely at their mercy, and has the stones to insult one of them to his face? That part?

As for acting in ANH, I dare say Mark Hamill (who's been an amazing actor for decades) was pretty terrible in it, and I don't think Carrie Fisher was particularly great either.

I mean, I'm not going to argue that either were at the top of their game there. (Though I do think that people are way harder on Hamill than is really warranted - he's perfectly fine, and I think most people are just tetchy about his being kinda whiny at the very start, without accounting for the fact that resolving to quit being a backwater teenage shitkicker and start being a hero is the launching point for his entire character arc. And Fisher improves dramatically simply by dropping that weird pseudo-British accent she's affecting for her first couple scenes as soon as she's out of the brig.) It's when you say that TFA is a drastic improvement that I have to take issue.

but TFA is miles ahead of the prequel trilogy, and definitely one of the more enjoyable Star Wars films.

It doesn't have some of the crippling issues that the prequels did, but that's largely because the prequels were the work of a single author who had reached the point where he didn't have anybody left to tell him "no" anymore. TFA is a movie conceived and assembled by committee, and while it might dodge the perils of being the product of an unfettered auteur, it has exactly as much soul as a movie made by comittee usually does, which is to say: none at all.

"'Legacy code' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrupwww.commodorejohn.com - in case you were wondering, which you probably weren't.

Zohar wrote:First time Star Wars has a woman character that's not sexualized and damseled?

What's Mon Mothma, chopped liver?

Sure, why don't we include Luke's mom in there as well? A grand total of what, 3 minutes of being on-screen? Also people were complaining about TFA not being better than ANH in any way, so the comparison is with ANH

Now, now, you claimed the first time for Star Wars.

Clearly, it isn't.

Yes, Rey is more prominent than Mon Mothma, but she had a speaking role, an action figure, a named part with an important role. Even a highly quotable line. She's clearly in Star Wars, and before Rey.

Feh. Lando's more relevant to the plot than Finn is.

The emperor is more relevant than Han Solo, too - doesn't mean he's a bigger character. Again comparing to ANH but even if not - I'm almost certain that Lando Calrissian appears for a lot less time on-screen than Finn does in TFA.

So, it's all just screen time then? Lando's one of the big hero characters. Not *the* biggest, but top five? Sure. I'd say Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, Lando in order of importance in RotJ.

No, we're not. Vader's voice actor was black, but the actor playing him physically, the actor appearing at the end of Return of the Jedi, and the character itself is definitely white.

The actor playing him physically...I would not recognize or associate with Darth Vader in any way, whereas Vader's voice is iconic. Nature of the guy literally wearing a suit the entire time.

But fair is fair, everyone involved got an IMDB credit. Even if the others deserve credit as well, James Earl Jones definitely is strongly associated with the role. And Vader is far more of a leading role than Finn is.

commodorejohn, saying "this movie has some parts to it that are better than this other movie" doesn't mean "This movie is better than that other movie". I'm not trying to make that claim. If I say "The special effects in Batman Vs. Superman are much better than the ones in Citizen Kane", that doesn't mean I'm saying it's a better movie. So if I say "In TFA the leads are better actors, there's better racial and gender balance and better representation than there was in ANH", I'm not saying ANH is trash. You keep trying to put these words in my mouth.

Tyr - are you really claiming Darth Vader is a good representation of a black character? Exhibit 1, exhibit 2, exhibit 3. Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker was never portrayed as black. There was a black actor heavily involved in the production in a very prominent role, but the character just isn't black.

As for your nitpicking for "hey I managed to find a single woman who appears in three minutes out of a total of 377 minutes and isn't sexy" - good for you, great job.

As for your claim that Finn somehow has a smaller role in TFA than Han, Chewy, Luke, and Poe, that's just ridiculous. They didn't make the most money, and they weren't the biggest names, but Rey and Finn are obviously the lead characters of that movie, followed by Kylo Ren. Hell, this article shows exactly who are the lead characters in The Force Awakens, and it pretty much proves the order you suggest doesn't make sense.

Zohar wrote:So if I say "In TFA the leads are better actors, there's better racial and gender balance and better representation than there was in ANH", I'm not saying ANH is trash.

I mean, I'll take your word for it on what you were trying to say. But when you make that assertion in response to criticism of TFA as a movie compared to the other films in the series, it certainly looks like that's what you're saying.

Anyway: is that true? Partly, sure. (As noted, I disagree about the merits/demerits of the actors.) Does it make TFA a better movie? No.

Zohar wrote:commodorejohn, saying "this movie has some parts to it that are better than this other movie" doesn't mean "This movie is better than that other movie". I'm not trying to make that claim. If I say "The special effects in Batman Vs. Superman are much better than the ones in Citizen Kane", that doesn't mean I'm saying it's a better movie. So if I say "In TFA the leads are better actors, there's better racial and gender balance and better representation than there was in ANH", I'm not saying ANH is trash. You keep trying to put these words in my mouth.

Even in the bikini scene, she is not really much of a damsel. Yes, she was captured, but the heroes get captured quite a lot in Star Wars. She was very definitely a protagonist in terms of how she handled it, what with the strangling bit.

Looking like a thing is not the same as BEING that thing.

Tyr - are you really claiming Darth Vader is a good representation of a black character? Exhibit 1, exhibit 2, exhibit 3. Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker was never portrayed as black. There was a black actor heavily involved in the production in a very prominent role, but the character just isn't black.

The prequels definitely went heavy on portraying Anakin as white, that's true. This is not a point in favor of the prequels. That said, nobody is really very interested in defending the prequels, so bringing them up is a bit of a strawman.

Within the context of the original series, it seems obvious that they tossed a white face in there because of the whole "I am your father" bit Lucas tossed on in the second film. That face appears only briefly, at the very end of his portrayal. You are tossing out 95% of the performance as irrelevant because a white chap was there for a few seconds.

In the film, it just...wasn't important if Vader was, under the mask, black or white. The voice fit him, and made him a great villain. You can't reasonably ignore the whole thing because a tiny amount of it was not the specific kind of inclusiveness you, decades later, want.

As for your nitpicking for "hey I managed to find a single woman who appears in three minutes out of a total of 377 minutes and isn't sexy" - good for you, great job.

There isn't actually a problem with a woman appearing as sexy. Is it a problem if every potrayal is sexy? Sure. But honestly, Leia's screen time was mostly not about being sexy, but about doing something to further the plot. Leia's pretty important to the original trilogy. The fact that she wore a bikini for one scene does not invalidate every other scene she was in.

We do also have Mon Mothma, and Aunt Beru. Beru's not in there a ton, so she makes a worse example than Mothma. But you're seriously dismissing all counterarguments based on some combination of not meeting your standards in complete detail, and also not being on screen the entire time. Cmon. That's not reasonable.

As for your claim that Finn somehow has a smaller role in TFA than Han, Chewy, Luke, and Poe, that's just ridiculous. They didn't make the most money, and they weren't the biggest names, but Rey and Finn are obviously the lead characters of that movie, followed by Kylo Ren. Hell, this article shows exactly who are the lead characters in The Force Awakens, and it pretty much proves the order you suggest doesn't make sense.

You're seriously saying that BB-8 was a more important character than, say, Kylo Ren, simply because he was visible on screen more frequently?

Because if you DO view Kylo as a main character, and BB-8 as not, then clearly, you are dismissing your own data when convenient for you.

Tyndmyr wrote:The actor playing him physically...I would not recognize or associate with Darth Vader in any way, whereas Vader's voice is iconic. Nature of the guy literally wearing a suit the entire time.

They had to use Jones really, as the actor who played Vader had an accent which wouldn't be taken seriously by 99% of the American movie-going public.

Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

Okay, now I need to look up what David Prowse actually sounds like. It's definitely jarring looking at on-set photos where he has the helmet off; he looks more like someone you'd want to go to the pub with than run in terror from.

"'Legacy code' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrupwww.commodorejohn.com - in case you were wondering, which you probably weren't.

Tyndmyr wrote:Looking like a thing is not the same as BEING that thing.

It's Carrie Fisher who was "being that thing" and she definitely hated this whole bit, and not because it was too empowering for her character.

That said, nobody is really very interested in defending the prequels, so bringing them up is a bit of a strawman.

They're cannon, they don't contradict the original trilogy, and multiple people repeatedly mentioned how much worse TFA is than them, so I disagree with that assertion.

In the film, it just...wasn't important if Vader was, under the mask, black or white. The voice fit him, and made him a great villain. You can't reasonably ignore the whole thing because a tiny amount of it was not the specific kind of inclusiveness you, decades later, want.

I'm not sure how you can sensibly say he's a prime example of a black character's representation but also say his race doesn't matter.

We do also have Mon Mothma, and Aunt Beru. Beru's not in there a ton, so she makes a worse example than Mothma. But you're seriously dismissing all counterarguments based on some combination of not meeting your standards in complete detail, and also not being on screen the entire time. Cmon. That's not reasonable.

As I said, you're a winner! Mon Mothma's zero seconds in ANH and Luke's Aunt's 45 seconds definitely count as representation of important women characters. Congratulations!

You're seriously saying that BB-8 was a more important character than, say, Kylo Ren, simply because he was visible on screen more frequently?

Because if you DO view Kylo as a main character, and BB-8 as not, then clearly, you are dismissing your own data when convenient for you.

I mean, the droids in Star Wars have often been suggested to be the real heroes of the story, so I'm not sure that would be wrong to say...

commodorejohn wrote:Okay, now I need to look up what David Prowse actually sounds like. It's definitely jarring looking at on-set photos where he has the helmet off; he looks more like someone you'd want to go to the pub with than run in terror from.

commodorejohn wrote:Okay, now I need to look up what David Prowse actually sounds like. It's definitely jarring looking at on-set photos where he has the helmet off; he looks more like someone you'd want to go to the pub with than run in terror from.

commodorejohn wrote:Okay, now I need to look up what David Prowse actually sounds like. It's definitely jarring looking at on-set photos where he has the helmet off; he looks more like someone you'd want to go to the pub with than run in terror from.

Forum newbie - joined for this thread as y'all have the best discussion happening right now that I can find.

Agree with the majority of Tyndmyr's issues. Big picture, my main problems with the film were: 1) inconsistencies, 2) lack of depth, & 3) lack of solid character development - with the lack of depth (only way I can describe it) being the biggest one for me.

What I mean by that is sort of two-fold. Firstly, I didn't get that sense that most of the other movies have provided that there's so much more going on in the universe that we aren't seeing.

Spoiler:

"There's no one out there to help us!!!" at the end pissed me off the most - like, for real?? Even in TFA there's all this talk about "heroes of the rebellion" and everyone - even backwoods scrap collectors living in "literally nowhere" know of our heroes - so why the hell are there so few Rebels left? (Separate point of contention with this scene - even hyperspace travel takes time, and didn't they say it's a remote base!?) Would have loved a deeper explanation of why their forces were so limited - mention something about how the First Order's moved to take over planetary governments again, or how they infiltrated/brought down the New Republic (or is that EU only).

Both the OT & the prequels were great at those scenes and small details - the scan of the lifeforms in Mos Eisley cantina, Lando's talk about mining troubles, all the stuff going on at Jabba's palace, freakin' Coruscant - this one (and TFA to a lesser degree) just felt soooo poorly built-out. And that's one of the main things I love about Star Wars. Secondly, while yeah, the plot was a bit shaky overall, they could have dove deeper into individual scenes to make it more believable and improved character development.

Spoiler:

Example: the bomber fleet at the beginning - perhaps they shouldn't have been flying in such close formation, in case of a chain reaction like the one that happened. Perhaps this could have been an indicator of the weakened resources of the Rebels - they have less experienced people in command who neglect to notice things like this, and thus it has an extreme result. (Or maybe I just watch too much Battlestar.) Second example: why did Leia have such a strong reaction to Poe's actions? My pet theory: his cockiness reminds her Han - his costume was nearly identical by the end - and it pissed her off Not even gonna get into the casino city scene - I think they were trying to show a bit more beyond the fighting but it wasn't well done.And freakin' Snoke, man... you can't just dangle that out there, he's some super force user who's come to command the entire First Order, without explaining how. Lastly I just can't even with the lack of communication between the Rebel leadership. Just talk to each other for crying out loud. And would it have made more sense for Holdo's plan to include the hyperspace jump into the Dreadnaught from the get-go - or would the First Order have realized that they'd emptied the ship sooner and still blasted the transports out of the sky?

Re: Leia

Spoiler:

I, for one, DID like Leia's Supergirl/Mary Poppins bit - while cheesy, at least her (latent) force abilities were revealed at last, AND it's in my opinion one of the most powerful force displays in the movies (tho it would have made more sense if she'd used those abilities to keep from getting sucked out in the first place). It's killing me that there are so many more powerful examples of force use in the EU and yet we never see anything close to that in the movies, with the awesome exception of Luke's force projection which I greatly enjoyed. As far as powerful force displays go in this movie, IMO it's 1) Luke's projection, 2) Snoke's mind-melding, 3) Leia's force pull. Remind me what impressive uses of force the two "strongest"force users demonstrated, again?

I know Johnson wanted to go in a different direction with this film, and shake up people's expectations. That's what I wanted too! But I was entirely disappointed with their execution. The heavy-handed humor & overuse of the Porg bits (sorry, is it a spoiler that the Porgs aren't uesful?) just felt like an insult, as did the quips & trite throwbacks to OT & EU stuff "for the fans." I wanted more exploration of the force, its meaning, its uses, and how the Jedi & the Sith interact with it.

Also, did anyone else notice an absurd amount of time spent on close-up shots of characters' faces, or them looking at stuff?

I have no idea where they can go with Episode IX now. But my expectations are set pretty low.

Well I had high hopes for Rey. Let's look at her accomplishments. A Star Ship pilot who can fly a ship she has never been in as well as Han Solo or Chewie, a crack mechanic who can fix a problem with the Falcon and manipulate a ships systems to rescue the comic relief. And she kicks Kylo Rens ass in a stand up fight. After breaking out of a First Order detention cell. Unassisted. And she doesn't have a back story? Color me under impressed. Everybody, who is anybody, has a origin story. What makes her, her? Her motivation seems a trifle thin. Maybe it will make sense when I get to see it. I still haven't gotten the taste of the prequels out of my mouth. Making a female the protagonist was the best decision the franchise has made recently.

You understand you described Luke, yes? Crack pilot in an X-wing, something he's not flown. Able to repair droids. Vague, unexplained backstory that boils down to "farm boy living with aunt and uncle". Mild description of parents leaving him.... wait, that was Rey. Mild description of dad being a fighter pilot, able to convincingly walk around an experimental and new Imperial battle station without drawing undue attention, decent shot with a military rifle as well as the knowledge to shoot it, able to shoot down TIEs from a junker (as well as both knowing how to turn the guns on as well as actually shoot them using that crazy targeter), the upper arm strength needed to hold himself and a whole second person on a wire attached to his belt....

Hit a target because he used to throw crap at rats back home when cruising around in his T-bird. Or whatever a T-16 is.

heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.

heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

And yeah so Luke, he had the womp rats. Crude, but counts as practice. He's not such a bad pilot himself, you know.And his father was a great Jedi himself, whoever he was and however he got there.So he can arc from a whiny bumpkin to a master, and we can dig.

Anakin, alright. What's he got. Midichlorians? OK, those are wack. But you know what else they are? An attempt. Something. Anything.

Rey's background is LESS compelling and explanatory than midichlorians. VII and VIII are truly playing limbo with my expectations, and winning.

LE4dGOLEM: What's a Doug?Noc: A larval Doogly. They grow the tail and stinger upon reaching adulthood.

Spoilering Zohar's response, because more interested in discussing the movie:

Spoiler:

Zohar wrote:

Tyndmyr wrote:Looking like a thing is not the same as BEING that thing.

It's Carrie Fisher who was "being that thing" and she definitely hated this whole bit, and not because it was too empowering for her character.

Look at her quotes, dude. She disliked the bikini aspect, but indeed enjoyed the strangling aspect. This supports my statement that you need to separate out the sexualization from the damsel in distress aspect. You can have one without the other. Leia is an active participant who drives the narrative, not simply a damsel in need of saving.

Zohar wrote:In the film, it just...wasn't important if Vader was, under the mask, black or white. The voice fit him, and made him a great villain. You can't reasonably ignore the whole thing because a tiny amount of it was not the specific kind of inclusiveness you, decades later, want.

I'm not sure how you can sensibly say he's a prime example of a black character's representation but also say his race doesn't matter.[/quote]

In the same way that nobody mentions Landos skin color, and he does not appear to be at any disadvantage relative to anyone else on the basis of skin color.

It's no different than Star Trek having folks all work together, all be bridge crew, etc. The whole point is that they are doing the same stuff as anyone else.

As I said, you're a winner! Mon Mothma's zero seconds in ANH and Luke's Aunt's 45 seconds definitely count as representation of important women characters. Congratulations!

Your original quote claimed that TFA was the first Star Wars film to feature a woman who wasn't sexualized or damselized.

Strictly speaking, ANH easily qualifes on the basis of Leia, but it seems you're more interested in constantly changing your claim than admitting error, and wish to retroactively dismiss this on the basis of a scene two movies later.

sardia wrote:I watched the movie, but I was confused by Rey's origin. Was she raised and trained by the force itself? Like she's blessed by god to take down Ren.

Possibly. That's one interpretation of seeing herself in the mirror when asking about her parents. It contradicts the story told by Kylo, though, and an alternative explanation for that scene is that it was straight up copying the cave scene from Empire wherein Luke sees vader become himself. Similar scene, different motivation, like a good deal of this film.

SecondTalon wrote:You understand you described Luke, yes? Crack pilot in an X-wing, something he's not flown. Able to repair droids. Vague, unexplained backstory that boils down to "farm boy living with aunt and uncle". Mild description of parents leaving him.... wait, that was Rey. Mild description of dad being a fighter pilot, able to convincingly walk around an experimental and new Imperial battle station without drawing undue attention, decent shot with a military rifle as well as the knowledge to shoot it, able to shoot down TIEs from a junker (as well as both knowing how to turn the guns on as well as actually shoot them using that crazy targeter), the upper arm strength needed to hold himself and a whole second person on a wire attached to his belt....

Hit a target because he used to throw crap at rats back home when cruising around in his T-bird. Or whatever a T-16 is.

I don't think there's any sort of problem with her parents being unknown.

I think there is a significant problem with the amount of teasing that her parents were significant, only to have no reveal after all. It's not really Rey's fault as such, it's the movie as a whole, and the marketing for it. You set up a teaser, and fans want payoff.

That said, I'll agree that Anakin pegged a little high in skills without good explanation himself. Small child with ridiculous skills, a jesus origin, and midiochlorian power level explanations...yeah. There are reasons fans didn't like him, or the prequels overmuch.

sardia wrote:I watched the movie, but I was confused by Rey's origin. Was she raised and trained by the force itself? Like she's blessed by god to take down Ren.

Possibly. That's one interpretation of seeing herself in the mirror when asking about her parents. It contradicts the story told by Kylo, though, and an alternative explanation for that scene is that it was straight up copying the cave scene from Empire wherein Luke sees vader become himself. Similar scene, different motivation, like a good deal of this film.

Sort of but not exactly. Both the cave from Episode V and the hole in Episode VIII represent them confronting the Dark Side but that means very different things for the two of them. For Luke confronting the dark place was about confronting his fears and the temptation of power- both back in the day and now which is why he tells her something along the lines of "You didn't even try to pull back."

It means something very different to Rey though. She is searching for a place to belong, specifically for something external to tell her what exactly her role and purpose are- that's why she thinks her parents are important and their identity will determine who she is and what she needs to do. So she goes for answers to Luke then the Light Side but when both turn out useless she immediately turns to the Dark Side which doesn't scare her and doesn't represent a temptation of power at all, just another potential source of information. The dark place gives pretty much the same answer though- a mirror i.e. look for the answers within yourself/only you can determine your place. Incidentally that is exactly what she does as soon as she gives up on the idea of determining her identity based on biology and sides with the Rebellion for real. That was my take on Rey's story arc at least.

As for Rey being Kaylo's light side counterpart, that doesn't quite make sense to me. For one I don't think people need to put that much stock in the words of Snoke as he both lies repeatedly and also doesn't seem to be nearly as knowledgeable as he pretends to be. Still, tying it to the idea of the Force presented in this movie, it seems it is always in balance i.e. there is net 0 light and darkness in the Universe so the idea is that a powerful dark side user would naturally create a counterpart somewhere doing something... or maybe like a bunch of nice things will randomly happen to people to balance out his evilness? I dunno.

There is one major problem with any explanation of this and it is that Snoke, who is presumably much more powerful than Rey and Kaylo put together, doesn't have a counterpart. I had assumed that was going to be Luke but I didn't really get the sense anyone thought that was the case.

So apparently they decided to include Porgs in the movie because the island they were filming on had way too many puffins and they decided it was easier to turn them into something cool rather than erase them in CGI.

As for the rest of Tyr's comments - I'm really, really done. I'll come back once I've seen the movie and can actually discuss The Last Jedi and not just TFA.

Opinions on them seem to be broken out by how much people mind humor in their sci-fi. The same sort of people that disliked all that humor in Thor are the folks who were bothered by porgs. Which is fair, I suppose, preferences and all. Humor doesn't really bug me, though. And a bit of joking about doesn't make something "not star wars" to me. The originals had a bit of silly in them as well.

Fun that they were puffins, though. Makes a lot of sense in retrospect.