I know I am not the only one here who have had friends not understand why someone would become Orthodox, and become totally frustrated with you over that decision. A lifelong friend moved back to town recently. We use to take road trips one or twice a year. Our escape from the madness of being working moms. So we take a road trip to Chicago this last weekend, we drove which gave us lots of catch up time as she has been gone for 10 years, 9 hour drive from KC. On the way back she asked about me joining the Orthodox faith. It really "concerned" her, hearing that! LOL Of course the major issue for it is the "idolizing" of people other than the Trinity. I explained it to her in the simplest way I know how, I was "still very wrong!" After she told me how she felt about it, and how she feels about other forms of Christianity other than non-denoms, and how she feels when she goes to church, etc., I stated that I don't feel this is the correct decision for me, I know it is the correct place for me to be -finally after all this time. I asked her if I chose to become a Buddist, Hindu, etc would that cause her so much frustration. She said it actually wouldn't because she understands why people are drawn to those religions! LOL At that point I laughed it off, saying it's good thing we don't have to agree! I guess I'm posting this here due to my frustration over her frustration with my decision! Ahhh, good friends, what can you do? Other than that conversation, we had a great trip and enjoyed it greatly. I will be returning to Chicago- too much for one trip to take in, never visited there before! The Air and water show was awesome this last weekend!

I definately know what you're talking about. I've never talked this over with my friends, but I certainly have with my family. I took my cousin to an Akathist once, and she sat down the whole service and listened. I know she was praying for us misguided people. One reason I know this is because when she visited a Catholic Church she said she was praying for them during the service. Interestingly enough she has the same problems with the Catholic Church as she does with the Orthodox Church.

And my Baptist Grandmother somehow brushed off the Scriptures I gave to answer why we do some of the things we do, and she even denied the Church history I mentioned. She said we can't actually know how the early Church did things. I brought up how we can know about American history, and she said "I didn't say we can't know SOME history." Conversing with many these people is alot more frustrating than I thought it would be. Before my conversion my Baptist Pastor was more understanding of the theology of the Orthodox Faith, than alot of the Protestant laity I have discussed this with.

Yes, it can be frustrating. Especially the accusation of being an idolater. One time it was said we are idolaters, but we just lie about it. I think you have the right idea, though. Just laugh it off. For some reason we can be in any religion except the horrible Orthodox...

Mersch, this sounds very familiar to me. Fortunately, my family all know what Orthodoxy is and there aren't too many problems with them. My siblings are all atheists/agnostics, so they scoff at various aspects of Orthodoxy, but it's not like they refuse to acknowledge it, if this makes sense.

My friends from my former religion refuse to discuss it with me and are always making annoying hints such as "why don't you check out that baptist, or presbyterian, etc. church down the street from you?". Of course, most of them think Orthodoxy is weird, idolatrous and essentially, unchristian. It doesn't matter how many times I've tried to explain it them, they just don't get it, and furthermore, refuse to make any efforts to understand. It's rather hurtful that they don't even consider us christian, but what you do about it?

Nobody in my family knows what it is, it's just that some of them know they don't like it.

Haha, I hear ya. The people in my famly don't really know what it is, either, we just discuss some little details of it, and they don't agree with it. I still think the main problem is they just don't understand the theology.

For example, my cousin I took to church has a real problem with the holy images. And, of course, my grandmother thinks we are Catholics, but without the Pope; even when I say otherwise. I'm not crazy about being contradicted about what my own faith believes.

So my family doesn't know alot about Orthodoxy, except one of my sister's did marry an Orthodox man. They live in Bulgaria. I've never heard him speak of it, though.

I definately know what you're talking about. I've never talked this over with my friends, but I certainly have with my family. I took my cousin to an Akathist once, and she sat down the whole service and listened. I know she was praying for us misguided people. One reason I know this is because when she visited a Catholic Church she said she was praying for them during the service. Interestingly enough she has the same problems with the Catholic Church as she does with the Orthodox Church.

And my Baptist Grandmother somehow brushed off the Scriptures I gave to answer why we do some of the things we do, and she even denied the Church history I mentioned. She said we can't actually know how the early Church did things. I brought up how we can know about American history, and she said "I didn't say we can't know SOME history." Conversing with many these people is alot more frustrating than I thought it would be. Before my conversion my Baptist Pastor was more understanding of the theology of the Orthodox Faith, than alot of the Protestant laity I have discussed this with.

Yes, it can be frustrating. Especially the accusation of being an idolater. One time it was said we are idolaters, but we just lie about it. I think you have the right idea, though. Just laugh it off. For some reason we can be in any religion except the horrible Orthodox...

Be friends, speak in friendly way about it, pray about it. Watch and listen.

Mersch, this sounds very familiar to me. Fortunately, my family all know what Orthodoxy is and there aren't too many problems with them. My siblings are all atheists/agnostics, so they scoff at various aspects of Orthodoxy, but it's not like they refuse to acknowledge it, if this makes sense.

My friends from my former religion refuse to discuss it with me and are always making annoying hints such as "why don't you check out that baptist, or presbyterian, etc. church down the street from you?". Of course, most of them think Orthodoxy is weird, idolatrous and essentially, unchristian. It doesn't matter how many times I've tried to explain it them, they just don't get it, and furthermore, refuse to make any efforts to understand. It's rather hurtful that they don't even consider us christian, but what you do about it?

This has pretty much been my experience. Sometimes I find it just as frustrating too.

I think the best thing to do is take it slow, pray constantly, and be persistent in the defense of your beliefs. If she constantly says that iconography is idolatry, then consistently tell her that you can tell the difference between Saint So-and-so and the Holy Trinity. It's as simple as that. Also, you could point out that the very Church Fathers that defended and expressed our belief in the Holy Trinity, the Holy Scriptures, etc., are the same Fathers that also prayed to their departed Fathers and Mothers, especially the Holy Theotokos.

Faith, Hope, and Love - the greatest of these is Love. Although I don't think you're going to, never give up on your friends unless they are absolutely hostile. God has not given up on them, so neither should we. God's grace is always preserving all of us, and they have to simply let it sink into their hearts. The Holy Trinity can do amazing things! I will continue to pray for you upon your conversion, as I first read your post a few days ago. May God grant you everything you need.

Mersch, this sounds very familiar to me. Fortunately, my family all know what Orthodoxy is and there aren't too many problems with them. My siblings are all atheists/agnostics, so they scoff at various aspects of Orthodoxy, but it's not like they refuse to acknowledge it, if this makes sense.

My friends from my former religion refuse to discuss it with me and are always making annoying hints such as "why don't you check out that baptist, or presbyterian, etc. church down the street from you?". Of course, most of them think Orthodoxy is weird, idolatrous and essentially, unchristian. It doesn't matter how many times I've tried to explain it them, they just don't get it, and furthermore, refuse to make any efforts to understand. It's rather hurtful that they don't even consider us christian, but what you do about it?

This has pretty much been my experience. Sometimes I find it just as frustrating too.

It's been similar for me, as well. I actually lost almost every single Protestant friend I had because of Orthodoxy. Even as I try to salvage or resurrect our slumbering relationships, I get blank responses. They're just fine with cutting my wife and I loose despite that there is no other conflict than Orthodoxy.

At a dinner with family, I had a nice talk with a widow of a Lutheran minister, a close friend of my parents. My mother mentioned I was Orthodox. I explained to our friend that I had gone to an evangelical school, and that as a protestant their ideas didn't bother me, but it was their guarded, repressive attitude about bad ideas that bothered me. (The evangelical movement comes from Calvinism)

I told her, "It is funny, the Calvinists think that Catholicism is a heresy. But they themselves have a heresy. They believe that the Communion is just symbolic, a representation, nothing more." She nodded her head.

"That's common sense, it's what many Americans believe. It's what Calvin believed. But it's not what Luther believed."

"What did Luther believe?", she asked.

"He thought that Christ was spiritually present in the bread, that the communion was spiritually Christ's body, but that it was physically bread. It's called "consubstantiation". Catholicism teaches transubstantiation, that the bread becomes physically and spiritually Christ's body. Orthodox say it is a mystery how exactly the transformation occurs."

"Lutherans and Catholics both say if you look at it under a microscope, communion has all the chemical properties of bread. It seems to me you can't prove it either way."

It is interesting that a friend could be so understanding about people being drawn to Buddhism, hinduism etc. but apprehensive about Orthodoxy which seems to testify to the lack of spirituality in much of the materialist Christianity outside the church. The icons point to paradise, the heavenly kingdom & testify to our salvation & resurrection but in their materialistic blindness see "idolatry" like a heretic in another thread keeps bantering about.

I actually lost almost every single Protestant friend I had because of Orthodoxy. Even as I try to salvage or resurrect our slumbering relationships, I get blank responses. They're just fine with cutting my wife and I loose despite that there is no other conflict than Orthodoxy.

Same here. And forget inviting them, btw. I've invited numerous "friends" to Liturgy, Vespers, when Met. Jonah was visiting, Pan-Orthodox picnics & services, when the Ecumenical Patriarch visited, etc. etc. Not one has ever actually attended. They either decline or accept and never show.

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

I definately know what you're talking about. I've never talked this over with my friends, but I certainly have with my family. I took my cousin to an Akathist once, and she sat down the whole service and listened. I know she was praying for us misguided people.

You took a Protestant friend to an Akathist? Were you trying to annoy her? j/k

I definately know what you're talking about. I've never talked this over with my friends, but I certainly have with my family. I took my cousin to an Akathist once, and she sat down the whole service and listened. I know she was praying for us misguided people.

You took a Protestant friend to an Akathist? Were you trying to annoy her? j/k

LOL!

« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 11:47:02 AM by katherineofdixie »

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

A woman, at work, once asked me what faith I was. I told her Orthodox, she seemed confused. The next day she told me she spoke to her mother and her mother told her, "they are very strict." LOL That was the first time someone mentioned that...lol The woman and her mother are Baptists. My Catholic friends felt we were still the same. My mother wasn't happy,tho my grandmother was originally Orthodox before she married by Polish grandfather. My father when he saw some of the Liturgy on TV, I told him that's what I am. He responded, "That's the right way to worship." And he told my mother, "Thank God he's not a Protestant." Now that's a traditional Polish/Catholic response...lol

It is interesting that a friend could be so understanding about people being drawn to Buddhism, hinduism etc. but apprehensive about Orthodoxy which seems to testify to the lack of spirituality in much of the materialist Christianity outside the church. The icons point to paradise, the heavenly kingdom & testify to our salvation & resurrection but in their materialistic blindness see "idolatry" like a heretic in another thread keeps bantering about.

I'm not so sure, recent convert. I can actually empathise with that response. I think I have an easier time accepting the positions of people of other religions than I do with non-Orthodox Christians. With Buddhists, Muslims, and others, they are what they are and they make no claim to be anything else. It's different when people say they are what you are, and yet from what they teach, believe, and practise, you can see that this clearly isn't the case. Hindus are not Christians, but because they don't claim to be Christians, it is often easier to relate to them than it is to relate to Calvinists, for instance, who do describe themselves as Christian but whose beliefs are anything but. See what I mean? So I can sort of understand the line of reasoning of Mersch's friend is thinking, even though her conclusion is obviously wrong.

As for the rest of this thread, it has been interesting for me to read some of the reactions that people have received from their former friends in US culture, where Christianity is, in many ways, different from in the UK. We don't really have any strongly influential Christian groups along the lines of the Southern Baptists, or such like, and popular culture is anti-religion, particularly Christianity, because of its former place of privilege in our society, law, and other things. Therefore, the default setting for people is an "all-inclusive" social liberalism, which is increasingly finding its way into many Christian traditions. So it seems strange to me to read of people being rejected by protestant friends for the reasons given, because of icons and saints, and such like.

The reason I put all-inclusive in quotation marks is that the proponents of this mindset are generally inclusive of everybody except those who disagree with them, whom they view with disdain. Their policy of affirming that people should be able to believe and practice as they wish stops short of extending to those who believe thins that aren't always in keeping with this. My former existence was as a liberal Anglican. Whenever one of the debates in the Anglican Communion came up, you could bet I would be on the liberal side of the argument. There was a culture among circles in which I moved of ridiculing other Anglicans who disagreed and the traditions (Catholic, Orthodox, Conservative Protestant), to which they aspired. We didn't listen to or consider their doctrinal reasoning but dismissed it as misogyny, homophobia, and so forth. We referred to Forward in Faith as "Backward in Bigotry". You know all those religious "light bulb" jokes with humorous answers at the expense of some group we don't like? Well, we had those for anyone who didn't follow our "enlightened" path. 'How many conservative Evangelicals does it take to change a light bulb? None: they dwell in eternal darkness.' Then we would all laugh together at the poor stupid people who weren't like us. I look back at it with shame as I realise that some of the most repulsive vitriol can ooze from liberal Christians and is directed at those who disagree with them, and that I was once part of this.

Then I stopped and realised that some of my friends, whom I knew to be good people, genuinely disagreed with me. I knew these people. They were not homophobes. They were not misogynists. So I started to take their concerns seriously. It was exploring their reasoning that led me to the scriptures, the fathers, and eventually, to Orthodoxy, having become convinced that the entire argument within the Anglican Communion was moot because it was separate from the Church. Whatever else I believed, I had to become Orthodox and allow myslef to be moulded by it, because that - being in the Church of Christ - was more important than those other things.

Of course, my liberal Christian friends just loved that, didn't they? To them, Orthodoxy was conservative, repressive, restrictive, homophobic, treated women as second-class - it was all of the things that they found disgusting and distasteful - and now, all of a sudden, I was becoming part of it. I no longer supported their dismissive attitude to those who couldn't accept the ordination of women. I believed that it was possible to be outside of the Church even if one calls oneself Christian. I no longer scoffed at heresy as some oppressive tool concocted by church authorities to make everybody conform. I believed that there was a right way to believe and to worship, and of course, therefore there was also a wrong way. I had suddenly become one with all that they despised, and had left behind what we once had in common. This was a true test of their inclusiveness - and most of them failed. Perhaps they felt that I had betrayed them. One or two were outright hostile. Most continued to be polite for a while but then gradually were in touch less and less, then not at all. Some remained faithful friends. Of my non-Christian friends, many who had tolerated my Christianity before because they saw it was liberal and, therefore, acceptable to their worldview, ceased to do so and also gradually fell away when I told them I was now Orthodox and they went away and looked it up. At no point during my conversion did my attitude to these people change. I remained their friend, shared with them, supported them and was supported by them in life. Then it just wasn't the same.

Since then, I have made some friends who are genuinely liberal Christians, through actual reasoned study of Scripture and not from the elevation of current social ideas to the level of Christian doctrine. Their attitude is very different. They understand that I have reached where I am because that is what I believe and they love and respect me. It helps that they have only ever known me as Orthodox, (although a few knew of me before that, they have only really got to know me as a friend in recent years).

As for the few protestants who hear of Orthodoxy and come out with the usual criticisms (often from a position of doctrinal ignorance - they don't even know why their churches oppose these things) about icons being idols, veneration of saints being wrong, belief in the sacramens being wrong, and that sort of thing, my usual thought is, 'Oh, dear, I'm having my beliefs condemned by somebody who believes in heresy. I'll try to pick up the pieces and move on with my life. Surely, there must be a support group for people like me.' I just try my best to explain firmly but politely, and then leave them to do what they think best.

So yes, conversion to Orthodoxy from a different way of thinking is not just an internal thing but can so easily affect our relationships with others. Any potential converts should be aware of this and try to get support accordingly. Try to make friends in the parish, visit other parishes. If there is an Orthodox group that meets regularly, join it. If there are regular pilgrimages in your area, go to them, because you'll find it's often the same people who go to the different ones. Try to get yourself a network of friends so you won't feel isolated and be tempted to turn back because of the intense loneliness that can ensue.

M

« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 01:31:38 AM by Subdeacon Michael »

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'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt

I believed that there was a right way to believe and to worship, and of course, therefore there was also a wrong way. I had suddenly become one with all that they despised, and had left behind what we once had in common. This was a true test of their inclusiveness - and most of them failed. Perhaps they felt that I had betrayed them. One or two were outright hostile. Most continued to be polite for a while but then gradually were in touch less and less, then not at all.

Thank you for your enlightening post, but especially this. I came from a similar (liberal Lutheran - my former congregation has an openly gay pastor in a "committed relationship") background, and all my friends from my previous congregation have disappeared. I couldn't figure out why. As I was reading your post, the lightbulb came on - this is why. Thank you.

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

Subdeacon Michael #16 ^: Perhaps I am not fully understanding the OP but I perceived that M's friend was evengelical & more fearful of us than Buddhists etc. Personally, I agree & understand how people in the west can be drawn more to eastern traditions which have much sprituality & wisdom but are basically predicated on reincarnation & only basically promise better rebirth for most based on karma which is obviously incompatible with any Christian hope for the salvation of the soul. I, of course, do not mean to strognly criticise M's friend in any way & perhaps I am misunderstanding an aspect of the post. Oh well, no big deal of course.

I'm having the same problem. . . only I'm not. . . I think it's more their problem, actually. I consider it a miracle that I go to the Orthodox Church, I absolutely love it, have looked for it all my life. Finally. Finally. With this said, I have friends from all faith traditions, and other world religions. . .my attitude is the same as with the Apocrypha - who know the Mind of Him who brought it forth and why do some read it and others don't? We live in a fallen world full of blind eyes and ears. Many are called, few are chosen. I have a gift I am not willing to let go of, for anyone. I'm a history buff, it constantly amazes me how many really just don't know. . .and they act on generational hearsay. He's more than able to change their hearts in a blink - it's up to Him and in His hands. I pray - and will continue to pray. My son found himself SURROUNDED by Orthodox Christians, all his friends. . .and now? I hear, "teach me about what you're learning, Mom, I want to learn too." **falls over and faints** Not a year ago we had a very long discussion about Communion - and how it's a 'memorial'. . . he's come a long way, baby!! **grins** Prayer is the best by far. . .everyone who isn't there yet? He knows their hearts, it's not up to me to judge - it's up to me to love despite.

I have come to realize that those Prostestants who reject us because of our Faith are idolaters. They accuse us of idolatry while they worship systematic theologies, Calvinism, Dispensationalism, denominationalism. Most are ignorant, but if they have the Light of Christ they will seek to understand Orthodox Truth and love us even if they disagree out of ignorance. But those who in their ignorance reject us and view us as "lost" are practicioners of idolatry. But we must love them still.

It is hard, because I have lost two very good friends due to my Orthodox convictions. It hurts, because I always considered them some of my closest brothers in Christ. I have never been aggresive in trying to prosyletize them, yet I have not been afraid to proclaim the truth of my Orthodox Faith. But they have cast me aside, without explanation. I have continued to reach out to them, but to no avail.

Our Lord said that following Him would bring such divisions. It's really painful, but I also think it's evidence that we are carrying our Cross as He commands. May He grant us grace to continually choose Him regardless of the cost.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

Ah yes, lost many a friend due to my conversion...in fact all of them. A good thing we make new ones, eh? God bless you and may your friend come to know Christ the way you have, by whatever means the Lord sees fit.+