From Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry Milligan,Is anyone able to explain how the pastor of FBC Dallas can still support our garbage mouthed president? I am sorry that I am so technologically challenged that I am not able to do one of those "blue clicky things" to ink up with Benjamin Corey's face book post.

Evangelicals, including many Southern Baptists, are feeling the consequences of ownership of their abandonment of character as a qualification to get their support. The immorality, racism, narcissism, adultery, fornication, corruption, lying, was all part of his character before he ran for office, and they knew it, and supported him any way. Over time, it will be a heavy price to pay, I think.

Sandy wrote:Evangelicals, including many Southern Baptists, are feeling the consequences of ownership of their abandonment of character as a qualification to get their support. The immorality, racism, narcissism, adultery, fornication, corruption, lying, was all part of his character before he ran for office, and they knew it, and supported him any way. Over time, it will be a heavy price to pay, I think.

Ed: Sandy will you please explain what you mean by "consequences of ownership of their abandonment of character" in the first statement just above?

Or, there was Jimmy Carter (SBC then) whose level of morality accounted for 52 Americans being left in November 1979 in Tehran to rot for well over a year until Reagan was sworn in. He would have done what President Ford did concerning the Mayaguez affair not long before. Those who have forgotten that might be interested.

I've addressed this here before, Ed. Evangelical political conservatives, from the very beginning of their involvement with right wing politics, proclaimed that candidate's character was supreme in all politics. They claimed that in order to use it against Bill Clinton. Now they've supported the likes of Donald Trump and Roy Moore, who make Clinton look like a Baptist Sunday School teacher. They have abandoned their conviction for political expedience, and now they have to "own" that decision, and they are paying the price for it.

Their references to Bill Clinton is just further indication of the total abandonment of values and integrity on the part of Evangelical leaders, and Southern Baptists like Robert Jeffress. It just makes them bigger hypocrites than they already are, since they also once stood their ground saying that pointing to someone else from decades ago to justify a current politician that they support is sheer hypocrisy. Back then, they were referring to the references from the other side about conservative, Christian support of Nixon as a means of neutralizing the right's criticism of Clinton.

Evangelicals, including the Southern Baptists who openly identify with the political right "own" everything that comes with Trump's character. Their endorsement of him includes their failure to address or speak up regarding his character. He is publicly a liar, an adulterer and fornicator, a promoter of immorality for profit, dishonest in business and places no qualification on moral character as a leadership requirement. It is leading people to conclude that Evangelicals are hypocrites, and those who support Trump without qualification absolutely are.

Just heard this on TV: "I guess truth is being viewed thorough a partisan prism”. They were discussing whether or not Trump said those countries are “s***holes”.

Joseph and Sandy are Democratic leaning. Jim and William and Robert Jeffress are Republican leaning. Thus their bias. And “bias” does not mean they are wrong.

I hope all meeting attenders speak up (or better yet an audio tape) to get to the truth. But irregardless of how that turns out, it is clear that Trump does not agree with the sentiment on the Statue of Liberty at a major entry point for immigrants:“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

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Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry MilliganI want to thank both William and Jim for reading and commenting on this thread, even though they insisted on talking about 20 and 40 year old events. Not sure how those attempts to get the focus off of a garbage mouthed, lying, adulterous and obfuscating commander in chief and his sycophant at FBC Dallas relate to this thread...but keep trying. Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.

Joseph Patrick wrote:Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry MilliganI want to thank both William and Jim for reading and commenting on this thread, even though they insisted on talking about 20 and 40 year old events. Not sure how those attempts to get the focus off of a garbage mouthed, lying, adulterous and obfuscating commander in chief and his sycophant at FBC Dallas relate to this thread...but keep trying. Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.

Yeah, this looks like a good way to elevate the discussion.

This was ihatebush for 8 years. Now, ihatetrump. I get that you guys, uh, lean a certain way. Not sure what the point is.

Joseph Patrick wrote:Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry MilliganI want to thank both William and Jim for reading and commenting on this thread, even though they insisted on talking about 20 and 40 year old events. Not sure how those attempts to get the focus off of a garbage mouthed, lying, adulterous and obfuscating commander in chief and his sycophant at FBC Dallas relate to this thread...but keep trying. Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.

Yeah, this looks like a good way to elevate the discussion.

This was ihatebush for 8 years. Now, ihatetrump. I get that you guys, uh, lean a certain way. Not sure what the point is.

The actual point is that ordained Southern Baptist Pastors support Trump, no matter how outrageous/vulgar he is.

Joseph Patrick wrote:Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.

I suspect none of us posting here know any or many folks at FBC Dallas. I live in Texas (about 2-1/2, 3 hours away), but as far as I know I don't know anyone there. Probably the best way to know would be to ask folks who are there. Barring that, I would venture a guess that most folks at FBC Dallas support their pastor. Also, generally, Texans voted for Trump over Clinton. Beyond that, I'm not sure it does that much good to speculate.

Some of my lib friends supported Hil and Bill, no matter what. So what? Obama, so what. There are different political opinions among us. If it feels good to my lib friends to vent here about their poor, misled, blind, Baptist brethren I'm OK with that. The adult coloring books must get old as a stress reliever. You will get another shot at it. Run someone who isn't an appallingly poor candidate.

If you drop the alleged vulgar term, there is a perfectly legitimate issue about immigration policy. Even with the vulgarity there is a legitimate policy discussion.

A little history may be in order. Remember that FBC Dallas was served for more than forty years by W. A. Criswell who preached segregation from the 1940's up to around 1970, and only then backed away from his previous stands in public. I suspect that the Criswell DNA there still has a major hold over racial approaches though the church has received African Americans for some years. In Criwell's heyday, there were guards at the doors to keep blacks from entering the church to disturb the services, especially during the 1950's, if my memory serves me correctly. Criswell was also incensed at Southern Seminary when Dr. Henlee Barnett invited a guest lecturer to come to his classes. That lecturer was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Criswell wanted Barnett fired for his affront to Southern values. Check my history on that one, but I heard Barnett tell the story.

"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

William Thornton wrote:Some of my lib friends supported Hil and Bill, no matter what. So what? Obama, so what. There are different political opinions among us. If it feels good to my lib friends to vent here about their poor, misled, blind, Baptist brethren I'm OK with that. The adult coloring books must get old as a stress reliever. You will get another shot at it. Run someone who isn't an appallingly poor candidate.

If you drop the alleged vulgar term, there is a perfectly legitimate issue about immigration policy. Even with the vulgarity there is a legitimate policy discussion.

You should drop the "libs"-need-psychiatric-activities-suggestions in red above. It is offensive and a poor substitute for real discussion.

Given Trump's Long History of Racism we should not have been surprised at Trump’s racist tendencies. These days Trump’s repeated racist (or is it classist or nationalist or all three) statements (be they vulgar* or not) does show a American First attitude and stands against long term America values of acceptance of immigrants. His view is to keep out what he believes are undesirables and perhaps uses it as a “dog whistle” to his base.

KeithE wrote: ...it is clear that Trump does not agree with the sentiment on the Statue of Liberty at a major entry point for immigrants:“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

This indicates the self-righteousness and superciliousness exhibited by people who either don't understand the difference in the U.S, between the 1830-1920 era and the current era or just don't care for anything but propagandizing like the empty suits at MSNBC's Morning Joe crowd. Maybe it gives a goose-bumpy warm-hugs feeling that lesser folks lack – that sensitivity thing. People of like circumstances, no matter their places of origin, came in the former era to be free and work. They were desperately needed to make the nation what it is, a place where their progeny flourishes. They learned the language, broke their backs and were given no handouts. On Sunday morning, Chris Wallace (Fox) asked the secretary of Homeland Security if the president would rather an emigre be a janitor from Norway or a doctor from Haiti. She was too kind to point out the sheer stupidity of the question as well as the obvious answer, namely, whether a need existed for either. NBC's Chuck Todd asked Andrew Young about the race-thing (Trump being the leverage) and Young, an educated black fired from his UN ambassadorship by Jimmy Carter, tried to explain just what I've noted...times have changed. The U.S was not the dumping-ground of the unneeded in the former era and certainly is not that now. Todd even asked Young if Trump is a Christian and Young was too kind to indicate Todd's jackass-mentality at the most profound level.

Dave Roberts wrote:A little history may be in order. Remember that FBC Dallas was served for more than forty years by W. A. Criswell who preached segregation from the 1940's up to around 1970, and only then backed away from his previous stands in public. I suspect that the Criswell DNA there still has a major hold over racial approaches though the church has received African Americans for some years. In Criwell's heyday, there were guards at the doors to keep blacks from entering the church to disturb the services, especially during the 1950's, if my memory serves me correctly. Criswell was also incensed at Southern Seminary when Dr. Henlee Barnett invited a guest lecturer to come to his classes. That lecturer was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Criswell wanted Barnett fired for his affront to Southern values. Check my history on that one, but I heard Barnett tell the story.

Joseph Patrick wrote:Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry MilliganI want to thank both William and Jim for reading and commenting on this thread, even though they insisted on talking about 20 and 40 year old events. Not sure how those attempts to get the focus off of a garbage mouthed, lying, adulterous and obfuscating commander in chief and his sycophant at FBC Dallas relate to this thread...but keep trying. Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.

Excellent point. The fact is, throwing back to Clinton is just a deliberate diversion tactic, and is an acknowledgement of the fact that neither William nor Jim have either a legitimate or a relevant argument.

I lived in Texas for 22 years, and I know members of FBC Dallas and former members of FBC Dallas through my involvement with the state convention, and through contacts in the Christian school community where I served for a decade before moving north. Most of the people I know from there who've left did so because driving and parking downtown wasn't easy, but they've lost more than half the membership since the days of W.A. and most of the ones who left were younger. I know some of them never thought much of their pastor's endorsement of politicans, and there were probably a good number who left as a result of that.

Sandy wrote:I know some of them never thought much of their pastor's endorsement of politicans, and there were probably a good number who left as a result of that.

By the use of the singular, you then mean only leaving under Jeffress, and not Joel Gregory, O.S. Hawkins, Mac Brunson? I don't recall whether they were active endorsing politicians, and if so, what kind?

Let's see...Dave introduces a 40 year old argument which is received as cogent and insightful by my mod lib/Trumphating hair-on-fire friends. Jim and I harken back a mere 20 years to disdain and ridicule.

Guess I need to overnight an extra supply of adult coloring books (stress relievers, not psycho treatment). Maybe Medicare covers it. Get try a few myself.

Why don't you guys have your own ihatetrump forum? Make it private. Have fun. Make some new friends. Congratulate each other for your wisdom and insight.

William Thornton wrote:Let's see...Dave introduces a 40 year old argument which is received as cogent and insightful by my mod lib/Trumphating hair-on-fire friends. Jim and I harken back a mere 20 years to disdain and ridicule.

Guess I need to overnight an extra supply of adult coloring books (stress relievers, not psycho treatment). Maybe Medicare covers it. Get try a few myself.

Why don't you guys have your own ihatetrump forum? Make it private. Have fun. Make some new friends. Congratulate each other for your wisdom and insight.

From Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry MilliganWilliam, are you intentionally trying to hijack this thread? The focus was how an could an ordained pastor of FBC Dallas support what our president, the exaggerator in chief, said about other countries. Whether I hate our exaggerator in chief or not has never been the focus of the thread I started. When you were in the pulpit of your church would you have used his language? Now we see The Christian Coalition supporting racist, garbage mouthed comments by our president. I do not hate (your language) the president, I am ashamed of his lack of Christ-like behavior and how people who identify themselves likewise support his antics.

Sandy wrote:I know some of them never thought much of their pastor's endorsement of politicans, and there were probably a good number who left as a result of that.

By the use of the singular, you then mean only leaving under Jeffress, and not Joel Gregory, O.S. Hawkins, Mac Brunson? I don't recall whether they were active endorsing politicians, and if so, what kind?

Gregory, probably not, though he wasn't there long. Declining attendance was already setting in by the time he got there. I'd have to look and see, though I think both Hawkins and Brunson followed in the tradition of Criswell in getting prominent Republicans in the pulpit. Lots of major GOP contributors in that congregation. Not all of the decline over the years has been because of the political endorsements, though I'm sure there were always some. The attendance began to decline before Criswell retired. But I think the steepest decline has happened in recent years under Jeffress, and I do know a few members from there who walked out because of it. As Trump shows himself to be the morally bankrupt buffoon that he is, Evangelicals who actually have Christian convictions will leave churches that make the mistake of allowing their pastor to endorse sin and corruption.