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Topic: 00 flour question (Read 14526 times)

I pay 5 bucks for 2.2 pound bag of Caputo, 3.18 per 5# of KABF and only 17 bucks for 50# of All Trumps. None of those are really relative to each other, since they are different volumes and also different type stores.

I bought my last Caputo Pizzeria flour for $52.80 for 55 #. Equals $0.96 per #.KABF $5.89 for 5 # locally. Equals $1.18 per #. KAAP same price.So much for "the flour is expensive".

After I made pizza the first time using 100% Caputo flour I threw out the KABF I had been using. I am temperature challenged since I have only a conventional oven with a max. temp. of 500 f. I do the best I can with what I have. All I know is that I got much better results with Caputo flour.

I also found a good Ciabatta Bread recipe but that's for a different forum.

I pay 5 bucks for 2.2 pound bag of Caputo, 3.18 per 5# of KABF and only 17 bucks for 50# of All Trumps. None of those are really relative to each other, since they are different volumes and also different type stores.

I pay $5.50 per 2.2 pound bag of Caputo.

Even KA is cheap compared to that, irregardless of the bag size. That is, of course, until KA slaps the "organic" label on it. Then it can start to get out of hand.

Two, 00 flour does tend to yield a little bit tougher crumb at lower temperatures than your routine American flour. The crumb can still be plenty tender enough as you've detailed in previous posts. But I can outperform 00 flour using KAAP or a mixture of KAAP/KABF and 00 flour at lower temperatures.

(I agree, in fact, with what Varasano had to say; for a 3 minute pie most people are going to prefer the KABF/00 mixture. I have found the same thing personally)

While you have those folks who believe that 00 flour is worthless for anything other than Neapolitan pizza, you also have those folks who believe it is simply the best flour in the world no matter the application. I fall somewhere in the middle. While it can be used successfully in any bread making application, I do not think it is simply the world's best flour irregardless of what it is used it for.

Interesting David. When you say you can outperform 00 using KAAP or a blend of KAAP/KABF (and 00?) at lower temps, can you clarify how or in what way the KA flours are better? Are the results more tender, better texture to the crust and/or crumb, better flavor, or just overall generally better. Also about how many times have you seen this phenomenon? Are you treating both doughs with the same routine and relatively same or similar hydrations or are you going by feel to achieve a similar feeling dough?

Also you are referring to caputo pizzeria 00 flour correct?

I like you, am not for or against caputo 00 flour and have yet to do enough tests with caputo versus other flours in various different applications to have form an opinion about caputo either way, so I'm always interested in other's experiences. I would like to learn more about it's true potential though and in what window of fermentation and baking temps it really shines. I know we have some really experience users on the board who are big fans of caputo pizzeria 00 flour, but I have always wonder how many folks are simply using it b/c everyone else is using it. No doubt that part or even much of caputo's success is due to their marketing.

I will say that there are 2 instances where I compared caputo directly against another flour and the results are as follows.... (links can be provided if needed)

Caputo vs Con Agra Mill's BF in a high heat fast bake (900F+). Caputo clearly won. BF at this temp was gummier. I'll have to do more test to veryify that it wasn't something particular about the method that could have skewed the results.

Caputo/Con Agra HG (75/25) vs Con Agra HG/Caputo (75/25) in a 3min bake. The dough with the 75% caputo won this round as well. It was lighter and had a more pleasing texture although both pies were excellent.

I was always very happy with KAAP when baking at 750F. I can't really say it was better than Caputo Pizzeria, but it certainly performed every bit as well for me. It was just as tender, I don't remember noting any meaningful flavor differences, and it probably helped with browning and hitting a ~2:00 - 2:30 bake.

CL

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"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

I was thinking about ordering some 00 caputo online and read somewhere that it will not make much difference unless you can achieve the higher baking temps. Is this true?

I did NOT find it necessary to have the higher baking temps to get a better pizza crust. I was using KABF prior to getting the Caputo Pizzeria flour. After making my first pizza using Caputo, I threw out the KABF which I had left.

That is something you must decide for yourself. For me, the answer is YES!

Rather then order off the internet, scout around and see if you have a Shamrock Foods (they are the Caputo distributor in your area) warehouse around. I know there is one in Denver. Call the Denver operation and see if they have a location closer to where you live that serves walkins.

UPDATE - I finally was able to do a low temp test (well relatively low anyway at 725F) with caputo pizzeria 00 flour in my wfo today. So the challenge is, can I make a same day dough using 100% caputo pizzeria 00 flour, bake it for 3-4min, and get a good result? I have had several conversations with multiple members, and the answer I kept getting is NO, it won't work. You will get a tough result. When I tell them that I have made plenty of pizzas with a caputo blend of 75%, I was told that I was getting those results b/c of the blend. Without blending it would be tough. Then I got a great result with a long fermented dough, and Scott123 wanted to know if I could do it with a same day dough.

My contention is that, (in theory at least) it is possible. All one would have to do is make some adjustments to the dough. Adjust the hydration to accomdate for a longer bake. Adjust kneading or the way the dough is developed to accomodate for gluten structure and tenderness.

For this test, I made two 6 hour same day doughs, one with IDY and another with a starter just to see the difference. These were both high hydration doughs at ~70%. But do keep in mind that I live at high altitudes in a dry climate with low humidity levels.

1st pie is the IDY pie. Here is the video of pie #1 baking at around 750F or so with a live fire. I wasn't able to show the exact time it took to bake b/c I was baking and filming by myself. I did time this bake at 3 min and 50 sec.

Here is the finished pizza.

Here is pizza #2, made with starter. In the video I say that is IDY, but I was confused here, it was with 25% starter. Everything else about the dough was the same. This one turned out even better IMO. Baked in 3m and 40s.

Below is a picture of the crumb from pie #2 (starter pie) after it had cooled, maybe 10 minutes later. Slightly tougher than fresh from the oven as with any cooled crust and crumb but it was still rather tender.

And just for discussion sake, here are pies made with the same dough baked at a higher temp 800-825F on the floor. Bake time was right around 2 min and 30 sec.

Look at the crumb on here. Though it was light and tender, it was slightly breadier than the longer baked pies. Why? I'm thinking less moisture was baked out (or more moisture retained). I have seen the same phenomenon in bread making. So for this particular dough at this particular hydration and with it's specific gluten development, this dough of mine benefitted from the longer bake. For this test today, I much preferred the longer baked pies. So for my taste, we have an instance here where a longer bake 3m40s was BETTER than a 2m30s bake using Caputo pizzeria 00 flour.

Here is the margherita. A good NP pie but very different from the above pies. Note the tenderness of the center when I tear the pizza.

I'll submit a full, more in depth post later. Although Neapolitans invented pizza, sometimes I wonder whether New Yorkers (lower temps, longer bakes, bit less of a bread-like texture) are the ones who perfected it.

Pretty masterful Chau. It goes to show that when you have an understanding of the specific flour specs, you can basically get it to perform as needed. That takes a lot of skill, which is much harder than just authoritatively saying you can't/shouldn't use Caputo for low temp bakes.

The reason most people get a tough crumb from Caputo at low temps is because they do not adjust the workflow to the needs of the flour like you did. Caputo makes many different flours, and Italian flour in general is much more varied in scope than the sea of all-purpose that we find in the supermarket. I have even seen flour specific to making Panettone in Italian catalogues. Caputo pizzeria was conceived in Italy, by Italians, specifically for pizzerias making Neapolitan pizza. There is a big picture of a NP pie on the front of the 50lb commercial bag. It is of no wonder why it works well at high temps for NP pies, and not as easily used in other applications without adjustment. Dropping it in a NY cold fermented workflow will guarantee different results.

And finally, "00" refers to ash content and fineness of grind. So a 00 flour can have widely different protein, wheat type and wheat quality. KA makes a 00, and Caputo makes a number of them, for example. They are not interchangeable.

Thanks David and John. TBH John, I wish I understood or knew more about flour and flour specs. I suppose it's just a matter of sitting down and reading. Most of my results have come by way of practice, taking note, making adjustments, and just plain trial and error.

I have used mostly flour that is available locally and a few specialty flours like caputo pizzeria and now Guisto's.That is a good point that you make about 00 being in reference to ash content and the size of the grind. I think for most of us who are unaware like me, we are misusing the label 00 to designated caputo pizzeria flour. It's just easier to say.

But I agree that not all flours are comparable for the same task let alone for different tasks. I think technique can, to some degree, make up for the short comings of lower quality flours. But in the end, I think both technique couple with the right high quality flour will yield the bet results.

I haven't made up my mind about caputo pizzeria flour yet, whether it is the best flour for pizza or not. It use to irk me quite a bit to hear ppl claim that it is indeed the best pizza flour. I often wondered how many making those claims really spent time testing different flours against caputo. I actually wanted to prove that it wasn't the best, hoping I could find a local flour to outperform caputo pizzeria flour because it is double the price compared to local flours. So far I haven't been successful in my attempt but have noted that it does indeed make a better pizza crust at lower and higher temps. I will continue to do more testing though.

The prime characteristics of Caputo 00 flour in relation to your typical American flour are high quality gluten, low ash content, low level of damaged starch and lower enzyme activity. Most of its behavior can be explained according to those relative physical attributes.

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scott123

Alright, I give in It would be nice to see these experiments recreated at lower altitudes, but comparing your 3-4 minute 00 crumb to your 3-4 HG crumbs, they seem comparably tender, so that's enough for me.

I will, from this point forward, no longer say that 00 has a propensity towards toughness with longer bakes.

Just to be clear, though, from a cultural perspective, 00 in NY style pizza is inauthentic, so, for those striving for 3-4 NY style bakes, I will continue to steer them towards bromated HG flours. I also feel that bromated HG is inauthentic in Neapolitan as well, so I'll continue to dissuade aspiring pizzaiolo's along those same cultural lines (along with a larger unburnt window with unmalted flour).

But that's obviously not being argued here. What is being argued- 00 tenderness with longer bakes- on that issue, I have been incorrect.

The prime characteristics of Caputo 00 flour in relation to your typical American flour are high quality gluten, low ash content, low level of damaged starch and lower enzyme activity. Most of its behavior can be explained according to those relative physical attributes.

David,

I don't think I could have said it any better or more succinctly. Although I am no historian on Italian grains and flours, I also believe that in the early days when the Italians, especially those in Naples and surrounding areas, discovered that their local grains produced fairly weak flours (Marco calls them medium strong flours), they concluded that if they were to be able to make crusts that were soft and tender yet had some color, they would have to bake the pizzas at very high temperatures and for short periods of time. Otherwise, they could end up with crackers. Eventually, they were able to figure out what oven designs worked best for this purpose, using whatever indigenous materials were available to them to construct the ovens. Today, things are changing because the Italians now import grains and flours from many parts of the world, including the U.S., and have widely expanded their flour offerings. And, it seems that the Italians are gradually adopting methods and practices that U.S. pizza operators use, for example, cold fermentation and storage, even though Marco has always contended that the 00 flours are best suited for ambient temperature applications (see, for example, Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410).

Also, the Neapolitans kept everything simple, just flour, water, salt and yeast (and sometimes natural starters) used in a straight dough system. No sugar and no oil. And no autolyse, stretch and folds and other such bread related measures. And no preferments, although Da Michele seems to be using an old dough method. To my way of thinking, there appears to be a natural beauty and harmony to the way that the Neapolitans adapted their flours, doughs and methods to their ovens.

I like the way it works e' mano, but it is not my favorite for the oven, WFO or not. The AT bromated is my favorite now.

Well it's tough to argue taste and texture. I also baked up one of my typical HG pies around 5min next to these low temp caputo pies. While the HG pies were excellent, I'd have to give the edge to the caputo. Ths is the 2nd time I've seen caputo beat out HG in a 3-4m bake time. Now I will say it wasn't a side by side test, just an observation. My feeling is that you can make a comparable crust with either flours in the 3-4min bake range.

I'll submit a full, more in depth post later. Although Neapolitans invented pizza, sometimes I wonder whether New Yorkers (lower temps, longer bakes, bit less of a bread-like texture) are the ones who perfected it.

The prime characteristics of Caputo 00 flour in relation to your typical American flour are high quality gluten, low ash content, low level of damaged starch and lower enzyme activity. Most of its behavior can be explained according to those relative physical attributes.

David can you expand on the as well in layman's terms? Does it fall in line with what I showed here or is what I've done pushing the bounds of the flour?

Alright, I give in It would be nice to see these experiments recreated at lower altitudes, but comparing your 3-4 minute 00 crumb to your 3-4 HG crumbs, they seem comparably tender, so that's enough for me.

I will, from this point forward, no longer say that 00 has a propensity towards toughness with longer bakes.

Just to be clear, though, from a cultural perspective, 00 in NY style pizza is inauthentic, so, for those striving for 3-4 NY style bakes, I will continue to steer them towards bromated HG flours. I also feel that bromated HG is inauthentic in Neapolitan as well, so I'll continue to dissuade aspiring pizzaiolo's along those same cultural lines (along with a larger unburnt window with unmalted flour).

But that's obviously not being argued here. What is being argued- 00 tenderness with longer bakes- on that issue, I have been incorrect.

Scott, when I have some time, I'll try to recreate this quality of crust in the home oven. Then I'll maybe go towards sea level and do it again. And after that outer space If you want me too. JK , that would get expensive. I really don't think that I some how have much advantage because I'm at high altitudes. This quality of crust can and should be reproducible at sea level. Just adjust yeast and hydration levels.

Like I said Scott, you weren't the only one telling me this. It was many members along with many different posts from a lot of people. I'm glad that I pushed the envelope here and did the tests. I discovered another way of making a great crust.

As far was what is traditional for NY or NP I wouldn't even know where to begin. All I can go by are my personal taste and what my senses tell me. I suspect that early American pizza makers were using whatever local flours that were available at the time. Overtime, they switched to newer flours as availability increase and they learned how to adapt their dough to the new flours. There is probably a lot of copying going on as well. So and so uses HG so we should as well. And then we grow up use to certain qualities for the respective styles and at some point it becomes the golden standard by which to mirror if we want to make such and such a style of pizza. Not saying early pizza makers weren't proud of their product, but how many were truely just interested in making a living versus making the best pizza possible? As an outsider, i truely never had the benefit of knowing what traditional pizza is, so i have more inclination to give up traditional practices for a better crust. Just because something has been done for the past 50-100 years, doesn't neccesarrily mean that there is no room for change or improvement.

David can you expand on the as well in layman's terms? Does it fall in line with what I showed here or is what I've done pushing the bounds of the flour?

Thanks,Chau

When I get some time I will. But I just don't have any.

I can point you in the right direction, though. The thing you're looking for here is the effect of oven temperature on the rate that bread stales. The general scientific answer is that the higher your oven temperature is, the faster your bread will stale. The actual mechanism attributed is starch retrogradation, and the rate of. A lot of people complain about their Neapolitan pizzas turning tough after they cool off out of the oven and this is the primary reason why.

So in theory, just applying the general rule, your 00 flour should give you a softer crumb using longer bake times. But when we examine the properties of 00 flour closer we will see if this general rule should still hold true.

I don't think I could have said it any better or more succinctly. Although I am no historian on Italian grains and flours, I also believe that in the early days when the Italians, especially those in Naples and surrounding areas, discovered that their local grains produced fairly weak flours (Marco calls them medium strong flours), they concluded that if they were to be able to make crusts that were soft and tender yet had some color, they would have to bake the pizzas at very high temperatures and for short periods of time. Otherwise, they could end up with crackers. Eventually, they were able to figure out what oven designs worked best for this purpose, using whatever indigenous materials were available to them to construct the ovens. Today, things are changing because the Italians now import grains and flours from many parts of the world, including the U.S., and have widely expanded their flour offerings. And, it seems that the Italians are gradually adopting methods and practices that U.S. pizza operators use, for example, cold fermentation and storage, even though Marco has always contended that the 00 flours are best suited for ambient temperature applications (see, for example, Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410).

Also, the Neapolitans kept everything simple, just flour, water, salt and yeast (and sometimes natural starters) used in a straight dough system. No sugar and no oil. And no autolyse, stretch and folds and other such bread related measures. And no preferments, although Da Michele seems to be using an old dough method. To my way of thinking, there appears to be a natural beauty and harmony to the way that the Neapolitans adapted their flours, doughs and methods to their ovens.

The prime characteristics of Caputo 00 flour in relation to your typical American flour are high quality gluten, low ash content, low level of damaged starch and lower enzyme activity. Most of its behavior can be explained according to those relative physical attributes.

Quote

David can you expand on the as well in layman's terms? Does it fall in line with what I showed here or is what I've done pushing the bounds of the flour?

Chau,

I know how interested you are in learning about many of the technical aspects of flours, and in this case, the Caputo 00 flour, so I thought I would take a stab at trying to demystify some of the things that Dave Deas wrote on the salient characteristics of the Caputo 00 flour, including starch damage, gluten quality and ash. So, here goes.

Damaged Starch. Generally speaking, Italian 00 flour made from Italian wheat grains have less starch damage than our domestic flours. What is damaged starch and why is it important? Damaged starch usually occurs during the milling process, during which there is actual damage to the starch component of the flour (starch constitutes around 70% of the total flour). Damaged starch can also occur if a crop is harvested at less than the optimum time, for example, during wet conditions where sprouting can occur before the grains are milled. The reason why damaged starch is important is because there are natural enzymes in the flour that attack the damaged starch in order to convert the starch to sugars for the yeast to use as food, and for other purposes (such as increased crust coloration through increase levels of residual sugar). Damaged starch can absorb three times the amount of water that undamaged starch can absorb; a particle of undamaged starch will only retain water at its periphery, not inside the particle of starch itself. Consequently, the damages starch is the preferred substrate for the enzymes to perform their function. The enzymes will continue to perform their function until they are destroyed. This occurs during the baking process.

Because the 00 flour has lower enzyme performance than other flours, that limits how the flour can be used. Marco (pizzanapoletana) has always contended that the 00 flour is best for an ambient temperature fermentation. Enzymes work better at higher temperatures, so the conversion processes and fermentation can take place faster in an ambient temperature environment. He has also noted that the enzymes will also work faster when the dough has a high hydration.

It is theoretically possible to use 00 flour in a cold fermentation application, but it may take a lot longer to reach the same stage in the fermentation cycle. One might try to speed up that process in several ways. First, one might add additional enzymes (alpha-amylase) in the form of barley malt. However, that might just direct more enzymes to the existing damaged starch and, as a result, only make the dough overly slack. One can also try to increase the amount of the damaged starch. This can be done by physically damaging the starch, as by running the flour at high speed through a machine like a food processor. Tom Lehmann told me that there were commercial machines that could do that, but he suggested that I damage the starch by boiling some of the flour in water. See, for example, Reply 99 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78968/topicseen.html#msg78968, and also some of the posts that followed. I think you can see that there isnít a lot of enthusiasm on the part of end users of 00 flour to mess around with that flour in order to increase its starch damage.

Falling Number. Related to the above discussion, the degree of enzymatic performance of a flour is often represented by a Falling Number. A flour with low enzymatic performance can have a high value, and visa versa. For example, the Caputo 00 flour, which is unmalted, has a falling number of 340-460. By contrast, a basic malted all-purpose flour in the U.S. can have a falling number of around 225-275 (see, for example, http://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=14317000). If you would like to read how falling numbers are measured, see http://www.wheatflourbook.org/p.aspx?tabid=67.

Gluten. There are two aspects of gluten. One is quantitative and the other is qualitative. First, the quantitative aspect. Different types of flour, even the same amount of flour with the same protein content, can contain different amounts of gluten. You can see this from the list of gluten mass values that is presented at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177835.html#msg177835. That list was created over the past month or so as a result of gluten mass tests that Norma and I conducted (about 95% by Norma) for several different types and brands of flour. The dough balls used in the tests were all 9 ounces, with 6 ounces being the flour and the remaining 3 ounces being water. As you can see from that list, the Caputo 00 flour rates quite high on a quantitative basis in relation to other flours, such as all-purpose flours with which it is often compared. But gluten quantity does not tell you anything about gluten quality. The way that gluten quality is measured is to take a sample of gluten and to use what is called a Glutomatic machine. The sample is centrifuged onto a sieve. In some cases, all of the gluten can make it through the sieve, or perhaps none of it makes it through the sieve. The amount of the gluten on the sieve in relation to the total amount of gluten is called the gluten index, and is a measure of gluten quality. The value is 0 when all of the gluten passes through the sieve and 100 when none of it passes through the sieve. I suspect that most gluten samples fall somewhere between 0 and 100. I did a search to see if I could find a gluten index value for the Caputo 00 flour but could not find anything on the subject. All I know is that Marco often said that the Caputo gluten was a high quality gluten.

Ash. For a discussion of the significance of flour ash content and how it is measured, see http://www.wheatflourbook.org/p.aspx?tabid=27. Generally speaking, a flour with a high ash content will have more color and flavor than a flour with a low ash content. The value of ash for the Caputo 00 flour is 0.50 +/- 0.05. For comparison purposes, the King Arthur all-purpose flour has an ash value of 0.48, and the King Arthur bread flour has an ash value of 0.48. It is only when you get to the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour that the ash value exceeds 0.50. For the KASl, it is 0.52. So, on this basis, I would say that the Caputo 00 flour scores quite well.

I really enjoyed reading that Peter. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

I would add that in addition to ash content adding color (grayish) and flavor, it also is one of the defining factors in why this flour is called "00". Italian classifications are based on ash content. This flour is milled close to the heart of the endosperm. As you mill farther out toward the periphery of the endosperm, the higher the ash content (and the closer you get to "whole wheat" flour, since more of the bran is included). This is also called the extraction rate. The quality of the protein is also more desirable closer to the heart, but the enzymatic rate is sluggish as you noted, due to less mineral content.

The Italian classifications are 00, 0, 1 and 2. In Germany, Caputo Pizzeria might be called a Type 50, since their designations also specifically reference ash content.

Thank you. I have written on this subject many times before, as a forum search under my forum name using terms like "damaged starch" will show, but from time to time I like to push the reset button and recalibrate my thinking. I also know that Chau has a healthy skepticism about a lot of what he reads, and he likes to debunk cherished notions, and I can't say that I blame him. Also, things change. For example, the specs for the Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour that I cited in my last post are a bit different in some respects from those that were given six years ago at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328.html#msg25328. There are now a lot more flour options in Italy than there were six years ago. A current Pizzeria 00 flour today may well behave differently (I suspect better) than a Caputo 00 Pizzeria of six years ago. The market for that flour has grown so large, with a lot more competitors, that companies like Caputo can't just stand still.

Peter, thank you for taking the time to write that up into layman's terms for me. I'm sure many of our members will benefit immensely from your post as well as John's. What a great post. I know I will be referring back to it from time to time to refresh my understanding of flour specs to help explain why flours may behave a certain way.

My free time is limited, and as a result much of it is spent doing dough experiments and I end up with little time to research and study. And all the info I need can probably be found on this forum here and there, but again not knowing where to search or having time to search make that information like buried treasures.

I did want to make a quick post about another experiment I did a few days ago, testing caputo pizzeria 00 flour against Guisto's BF. Both were moderately high hydration doughs and baked in the LBE at around 3.5m. Both produced decent and light crusts and crumbs and neither were tough IMO, but I will say that the GBF crumb was much more tender than the caputo 00, exceedingly tender. I was not surpised at this finding. It reminded me of Bianco's crumb and how exceedingly soft that was when I had it, and if I'm not mistaken, he was and might still be using GBF with a high hydration and baking around 3min. If someone has accurate or updated info, please chime in.

But I'm saying this to say that yes, I can see first hand that specific flours like caputo pizzeria 00 are indeed milled and made specifically for specific applications. Thanks John, I can see that now.

Peter, it's not like I make it a point to debunk cherish notions, but I often will seek more information or the truth if it seems to be in direct contrast to what I am seeing first hand. There must be a better explanation. The only problem for me again is time and knowledge. I lack a healthy dose of both. I don't really enjoy and am not good at being confrontational, but rather my aim is to shed more light on some of these misconceptions that are so readily embraced by the majority. It's much easier to copy and regurgitate, but much more satifying to discover and really understand what is happening. Thank you again for helping me with that. And thank you John as well. Always informative and always a pleasure.