This is somewhat related to purgatory, but not enough so that I want to derail the discussion by posting the question.

I understand that you have a belief in purgatory. That a person sort of "works off" (bad analogy, but I can't think of a better phrase) their sin so that they can go onto heaven.

My question is this; if we are cleansed of sin thru Christ, why would we need anything beyond that? Why would we need to even go to purgatory?

My good Catholic friend has always explained purgatory as a kind of waiting area that nearly everyone goes to. Whether you are a Christian or not you can go to purgatory and "work off" your sin and go to heaven. So to her mind, we can't judge anyone because they may just make it to heaven by "working off" their sin in purgatory.

I can't wrap my head around this concept.

And then the concept of "grave" "mortal" and "venial" sins seems quite odd to me.

My question is this; if we are cleansed of sin thru Christ, why would we need anything beyond that? Why would we need to even go to purgatory?

This is so similar to the Protestant question - If we are forgiven our sins by the Cross, why do we need to go to Confession?

Of course, it's not just a simple legal arrangement where Christ dies for us and all is peaches and cream - no matter what we do. No, we must use the means which God gave us to obtain forgiveness of our sins - Confession.

Similarly, while we are washed of the guilt of our sins by the Blood of the Cross, we still aren't purified by it in an immediate manner. If we were, as soon as you were Baptized or when Christ died on the Cross, or when you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour (or however you look at it) - we'd be Saints. We'd be walking around with perfect virtue and we'd stave off all temptation, etc. But, we're not pure yet - we're a grouping of seriously spiritually messed up people. We must work hard to obtain and grow in virtue and to purify ourselves - and that isn't easy. God certainly gives us the grace, but we must do our part. Note: this is why we are still here on earth - I haven't really addressed Purgatory yet.

Does that make sense? I tell you, I keep feeling like I'm forgetting things - all the time now.

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Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

This is so similar to the Protestant question - If we are forgiven our sins by the Cross, why do we need to go to Confession?

I wonder what's the longest we've gone without someone making a guilt-by-association argument.

-Peter.

It's a guilt by belief argument. If someone holds to the position that is described (why go to Confession ...) then they are guilty of an erroneous belief (and I have yet to talk with a Protestant that doesn't hold to that belief).

And again, I merely saw a similarity between the two questions.

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Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

And then the concept of "grave" "mortal" and "venial" sins seems quite odd to me.

This would be great to discuss in the thread I started about the Nature of Sin which has garnered little attention.

There are two degrees of sins - mortal and venial. The difference is in how much you turn against God, partially or completely. Grave refers to the magnitude of the offense - for instance, murder is grave matter; lying about your wife's meatloaf (O honey, it was great!!) is not grave matter.

For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be met:

1) The sin in itself must involve grave matter2) The sinner must know that it is sinful and gravely sinful3) The sinner must give full consent of their will in light of that knowledge

What is the effect of mortal sin - it cuts off the life of grace within you. Basically, you tell God to take a hike and get out of your soul! You create a hostile environment within your soul and show God the door.

The only ordinary means for the forgiveness of mortal sin after Baptism is through the Sacrament of Confession.

If you die with any unrepented mortal sins, you go to hell. Why, because you have chosen something else over God. You have chosen to not be with God and so you choose to go where God is not - hell.

Venial sins, while they still damage the soul, don't completely kill the life of grace within you. But, one of the damages venial sins cause is that it makes it easier for you to willingly commit a mortal sin.

These sins can be forgiven outside of Confession (i.e., Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick - and I think maybe Confirmation, but I'm not sure on that one).

Having venial sins on your soul will not send you to hell.

Does this make sense?

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Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

Unless you know you are dying and go to confession right before, wouldn't everyone die with venial sins? And how often would that actually occur? What "window" in which would you have to confess? I know that I will likely fight all manner of sin up until the moment of death.

My Catholic friend sees the concept of purgatory and confession as a way to sort of get around things here on earth. So you can look at porn, and it is just fine since you can confess it and since it isn't a mortal sin, it isn't going to do anything other than put you in purgatory.

Unless you know you are dying and go to confession right before, wouldn't everyone die with venial sins? And how often would that actually occur? What "window" in which would you have to confess? I know that I will likely fight all manner of sin up until the moment of death.

Those with perfectly purified souls are believed to enter heaven directly (Theotokos, Saints, etc), while people with "imperfectly purified" souls are said to "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." CCC 1030

Oh, and to address your friend. All I can say is Lord have mercy. From a RC standpoint, he/she is looking for loopholes, which can never be good for one's soul. As well, about the porn reference... Lust is seen as a grave sin, and if one understands that it is a sin (knows they must go to confession for it, etc.) and they perform it deliberately, it is likely views as a mortal sin within the RCC.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

I would have to look up the precise quote, but C. S. Lewis wrote of this somewhat and the idea of being greeted after death with something along the line of being told to come into Glory even though ones clothing is stained and worn and oneself is dirty and the idea of "Please, may I be washed." The "anteroom" of Heaven is not for paying for sins or to 'get around' things, but to be, as it were, cleaned up after a long trip.

Ebor

« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 12:02:28 AM by Ebor »

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I would have to look up the precise quote, but C. S. Lewis wrote of this somewhat and the idea of being greeted after death with something along the line of being told to come into Glory even though ones clothing is stained and worn and oneself is dirty and the idea of "Please, may I be washed." The "anteroom" of Heaven is not for paying for sins or to 'get around' things, but to be, as it were, cleaned up after a long trip.

I believe this is the quote you want:

Quote

The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, pp. 108-109

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My Catholic friend sees the concept of purgatory and confession as a way to sort of get around things here on earth. So you can look at porn, and it is just fine since you can confess it and since it isn't a mortal sin, it isn't going to do anything other than put you in purgatory.

It should be noted that presumption is a terrible sin against hope! (CCC 2091,2092)

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Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

Unless you know you are dying and go to confession right before, wouldn't everyone die with venial sins? And how often would that actually occur? What "window" in which would you have to confess? I know that I will likely fight all manner of sin up until the moment of death.

No, there are some who have achieved a state of perfection where they are no longer sinning and have purged all stain of sin from their soul. I have no statistics, but I would imagine that the number of people in this category to be exceedingly small!

On the east2west website, Anthony Dragani has a pretty good description of Latin and Eastern Catholics views of purgatory, and how different they are.

-Peter.

"In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."

Sounds about right, though I would modify it to place/state. All the rest of the teachings on Purgatory is theologoumenon (i.e., an actual fire, linear flow of time, etc.).

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Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

Lets say a person belives themselves to be dying, so they set up a confession, either by going to confession or having their confessor come to them. But they don't die until a month later. It is a sudden death a month after their confession. Or shorten it to a week, to a day... Does that time inbetween to potentially sin make the confession useless to avoid purgatory?

Or what about those that die suddenly in a car accident? Or some other trajedy?

I understand the need for confession. But I don't understand how God would send 99.999% of people to purgatory because they haven't been very recently to confession.

Lets say a person belives themselves to be dying, so they set up a confession, either by going to confession or having their confessor come to them. But they don't die until a month later. It is a sudden death a month after their confession. Or shorten it to a week, to a day... Does that time inbetween to potentially sin make the confession useless to avoid purgatory?

Or what about those that die suddenly in a car accident? Or some other trajedy?

I understand the need for confession. But I don't understand how God would send 99.999% of people to purgatory because they haven't been very recently to confession.

Confession doesn't remove the temporal punishment due to sin - it removes the eternal guilt associated with sin. A person could die one second after receiving absolution and still go to Purgatory. Why, because the absolution doesn't remove all the temporal punishment due to sin.

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Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

Lets say a person belives themselves to be dying, so they set up a confession, either by going to confession or having their confessor come to them. But they don't die until a month later. It is a sudden death a month after their confession. Or shorten it to a week, to a day... Does that time inbetween to potentially sin make the confession useless to avoid purgatory?

Or what about those that die suddenly in a car accident? Or some other trajedy?

I understand the need for confession. But I don't understand how God would send 99.999% of people to purgatory because they haven't been very recently to confession.

One thing you have to take into account is the RC mindset. RCs see purgatory as a display of God's mercy. Sending 99.999% of people to purgatory would not be seen as a negative to a RC. It means they have died, within the grace and favour of God, and in turn are heading to paradise, but require perfect purifiction first. If God did not show this mercy (purgatory to RCs), that 99.999% would go to Hell since their souls were not perfect. Purgatory is accepted as a natural step towards heaven for those blessed enough to be seen as worthy of eternal paradise.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Whether we are forgiven or not we face the consequences here on earth. So I understand that not all the ramifications of sin are abolished thru confession and forgiveness. But why would we have to continue to pay them out after death?

Confession doesn't remove the temporal punishment due to sin - it removes the eternal guilt associated with sin. A person could die one second after receiving absolution and still go to Purgatory. Why, because the absolution doesn't remove all the temporal punishment due to sin.

So, to put it bluntly, God can't be bothered to forgive us completely?

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Whether we are forgiven or not we face the consequences here on earth. So I understand that not all the ramifications of sin are abolished thru confession and forgiveness. But why would we have to continue to pay them out after death?

I came from a very traditional RC background, but while I was studying for seminary, purgatory and temporal punishment were "there to satisfy the justice of God and be perfectly purified". CSPX 118

Though, the penitent could satisfy this punishment on Earth as well, or in puragtory, when it was satisfied was/is a mystery.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Whether we are forgiven or not we face the consequences here on earth. So I understand that not all the ramifications of sin are abolished thru confession and forgiveness. But why would we have to continue to pay them out after death?

Purgatory is about cleansing our souls rather than about being forgiven. We are forgiven when we ask God (through prayer and through the rite of reconciliation) to forgive. Our character, nature, soul or whatever word you feel most comfortable using is affected by our sins and purgatory is about God's graces working in us so that we are purified from all the marks that sin left on our character.

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God does not simply rule by power ...His power is that of sharing in love and suffering ...God becomes small so that we can grasp his nature. - Benedict XVI

Why wouldn't confession and forgiveness of sins be enough? Isn't the work of Christ on the cross enough? If we have to work it off by our own effort, doesn't that mean that Christ wasn't fully God?

So you only confess a mortal sin, but any sins could make you go to purgatory? That doens't compute for me.

Why would anyone want to go to purgatory? Why not live in the confession area? Is purgatory a more inviting place than I am imagining?

Sin has two principle effects - 1) it creates an offense against God and 2) it wounds the sinner.

Confession takes care of #1, but #2 remains.

To use the analogy of illness that some Orthodox have used (and it is a very good analogy in my mind) - think of Confession as a medicine that will immediately remove all the germs from the sinner (absolution and the forgiveness of the sin - e.g., no more eternal guilt), but what remains - the sinner still has the symptoms of illness, they still have fever, achy, pussy, etc. The body has to heal itself from that attack of the germs - and this takes time and effort. Similarly, after the guilt is removed, we still suffer the temporal consequences of our sins. We may still be addicted to something or have a strong inclination to commit a sin again. We may have ruined relationships that need healed and a lack in our virtues or prayer life.

Does this make sense to you?

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Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

One thing you have to take into account is the RC mindset. RCs see purgatory as a display of God's mercy. Sending 99.999% of people to purgatory would not be seen as a negative to a RC. It means they have died, within the grace and favour of God, and in turn are heading to paradise, but require perfect purifiction first. If God did not show this mercy (purgatory to RCs), that 99.999% would go to Hell since their souls were not perfect. Purgatory is accepted as a natural step towards heaven for those blessed enough to be seen as worthy of eternal paradise.

Again with the Father Corapi quote (he is a good preacher!!) - the Bible says that we must be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, and if we have to be that way already before we die then 99.999999999% of us are in serious trouble! Nothing unclean can enter Heaven - and if we are unclean when we die (i.e., we're not a holy Saint at the moment of death) then we can't enter Heaven - and if their is no Purgatory for us to purify our vices and faults, then there is only one other possiblity. Purgatory is the mercy of God.

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Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

So, to put it bluntly, God can't be bothered to forgive us completely?

Forgiveness implies taking away the eternal guilt associated with sin. To do what you are thinking means we'd be walking out of the confessional like Saint Francis of Assisi (or Saint Seraphim if you will).

After Confession, do you have all the virtues there are? Are all your vices conquered? Do you have no inclination towards sin anymore?

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Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

We live out the repercussions of our sins daily. If I scream at my husband out of anger/impatience/pride then I need to repent and ask forgiveness from him as well as from God. But the damage to my relationship with my husband remains, I have to work at getting that relationship back to where it was. The repercussions are lived out here and now. Forgiveness doesn't remove the consequences for our actions here on earth. I can ask forgiveness for murdering a person, but I still would have to serve jail time, or even be put to death if that is what the punishment metted out by the courts is.

So, to put it bluntly, God can't be bothered to forgive us completely?

That is an odd turn of phrase for an Orthodox Christian. We are completely forgiven but we are not perfectly holy when we walk out of the confessional. Don't you have any kind of penance when you confess?

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God does not simply rule by power ...His power is that of sharing in love and suffering ...God becomes small so that we can grasp his nature. - Benedict XVI

That is an odd turn of phrase for an Orthodox Christian. We are completely forgiven but we are not perfectly holy when we walk out of the confessional. Don't you have any kind of penance when you confess?

Penance is not normally administered after confession. Our sins that we confessed are forgiven. What will penance do beyond the absolution of the priest? If any penance is given it would have to be for a very very grave sin such a excommunication or the like.

No. Everything I've learned from multiple priests indicate that a penance would only be given in order to assist in struggling against a particular sin one is having problems with, more along the lines of medicine than punishment.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

No. Everything I've learned from multiple priests indicate that a penance would only be given in order to assist in struggling against a particular sin one is having problems with, more along the lines of medicine than punishment.

Penance is given among Catholics for that very reason, to help one overcome the habits of mind and body that lead you into particular types of sin. And penances are typically prayers or meditations that will assist in overcoming the areas of difficulty that you've confessed.

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God does not simply rule by power ...His power is that of sharing in love and suffering ...God becomes small so that we can grasp his nature. - Benedict XVI