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So who's this Anti-Christ character?

One hears a lot of things and doesn't know what's considered true and what isn't.

So teach me.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

One hears a lot of things and doesn't know what's considered true and what isn't.

So teach me.

Just read your bible Fenris...

Cotton Mather
(1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)

"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church; and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from "The Fall of Babylon" by Cotton Mather in Froom's book "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 3, pg. 113.

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

Originally Posted by Jude

Just read your bible Fenris...

Cotton Mather
(1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)

"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church; and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from "The Fall of Babylon" by Cotton Mather in Froom's book "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 3, pg. 113.

Jude

Apparently I have a marvelous blindness upon me.

I better get that looked at .........

"He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

"Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
"Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

Originally Posted by Fenris

One hears a lot of things and doesn't know what's considered true and what isn't.

So teach me.

Christ as you might know means Messiah in Greek - anointed.
The antichrist therefore is the one who is against or not Christ.
Now in the New Testament (NT), Jesus is proclaimed Messiah or Christ.
So at heart there are multiple antiChrist's who claim to be Christ but are not.
Possibly a Jew might argue that Jesus is an antiChrist, if they don't accept he was the Messiah.

However there is an individual whom we know as Antiochus IV of Maccabees fame, who was a foreshadowing of the antichrist (AC).
This is tied into the beasts of Daniel's visions - each beast being a power which has/had power over God's people and over Jerusalem.
The power behind this is of course Satan, the serpent of old, yet this particular spirit is also called the antiChrist, for it is against he work of God, who sent the Messiah to defeat the work of the devil.
Now when we see and understand the beast and its power over the elect, and especially when we consider Daniel 2 and 7, which speak of the ending of that power and the coming of the Rock which destroys these powers (kingdoms) and sets up a kingdom which lasts forever, so we have the end of the one who blasphemes and sets himself up as God.

The NT then has a further Revelation which gives further insight into this final period of time.

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

Originally Posted by Old man

Actually he could be.

He's just not in your interpretation of your Bible.

Fair enough. So clue me in.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

Originally Posted by ForHisglory

Christ as you might know means Messiah in Greek - anointed.
The antichrist therefore is the one who is against or not Christ.
Now in the New Testament (NT), Jesus is proclaimed Messiah or Christ.
So at heart there are multiple antiChrist's who claim to be Christ but are not.
Possibly a Jew might argue that Jesus is an antiChrist, if they don't accept he was the Messiah.

However there is an individual whom we know as Antiochus IV of Maccabees fame, who was a foreshadowing of the antichrist (AC).
This is tied into the beasts of Daniel's visions - each beast being a power which has/had power over God's people and over Jerusalem.
The power behind this is of course Satan, the serpent of old, yet this particular spirit is also called the antiChrist, for it is against he work of God, who sent the Messiah to defeat the work of the devil.
Now when we see and understand the beast and its power over the elect, and especially when we consider Daniel 2 and 7, which speak of the ending of that power and the coming of the Rock which destroys these powers (kingdoms) and sets up a kingdom which lasts forever, so we have the end of the one who blasphemes and sets himself up as God.

The NT then has a further Revelation which gives further insight into this final period of time.

Ok this is a little more meat. Interesting.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

Originally Posted by Fenris

Ok this is a little more meat. Interesting.

Probably the key sections are:
Dan 2:32* The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze,*
Dan 2:33* its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.*
Dan 2:34* As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.*
Dan 2:35* Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

the stone speaks of what God will do, and His kigdom, as then explained here:
Dan 2:44* And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,*
Dan 2:45* just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.

So far this has not happened. A key question though for Christians is this bit:
nor shall the kingdom be left to another people

Who are the people? For most it is clear that the people are the people of Daniel - Israel, and it is why people like Keraz wish to substitute Christians with Israel saying we are Israel.
I have two ways of understanding this -
1) Christians are grafted in / adopted into the family of Abraham through faith - so that we are no longer another people, even though we don't become Jews.
2) It is the people of faith at the time when this happens to whom this will be true - they will then keep this forever.

The other part which seems to match chronologically is:
Dan 7:7* After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.*
Dan 7:8* I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.*

here we have the beast as a symbol of a kingdom, and the little horn is a man who speaks. This is the AC.
Dan 7:11* “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.*
Dan 7:12* As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

And here the AC is killed. At the same time the dominion of these beasts is over. This leads to the final part of the vision:
Dan 7:13* “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.*
Dan 7:14* And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

This is where we see the Messiah being the one to whom dominion etc is given. Further that ALL nations serve Him. It is clearly NOT speaking of the Ancient of Days - who we think of as the Father, but the son of man - a name Jesus often used to show he understood Himself to be this prophesied person.

Now the explanation:
Dan 7:20* and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions.*
Dan 7:21* As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them,*
Dan 7:22* until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.*
Dan 7:23* “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces.*
Dan 7:24* As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings.*
Dan 7:25* He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*
Dan 7:26* But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

Like the other beasts this horn has power over the saints, the elect, the people of God.
This horn then is the AC, who is defeated at the end.
His kingdom is ended, and then we have the same thing shown as in Daniel 2:
Dan 7:27* And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’*

Notice this is clearly God's kingdom, yet it is the kingdom of the saints, and it is the kingdom given to the son of man.

So as Christians we see the Messiah as the son of man, who will be given this place of honour and who will rule the everlasting kingdom, having been given it by the Father, and having at the end defeated the final beast kingdom, which will have waged war on the saints.

Now when we tie this into Zech 14 and other places we get a picture emerging of a final ruler, who will be given that final power over all the earth, and yet who will finally be defeated, and then the full kingdom of God will be ushered in.

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

To add one more thing -
In Dan 2 we have a number of kingdoms which follow one after another. If we understand each body part and material then we have a way to understand the times God has revealed through Daniel:

You may notice that Dan 2 has the final kingdom of a like nature with the preceding one.
It is the kingdom of Toes, which matches the fourth beast which has 10 horns.

Chronologically the two tie up too.
Working through history and which nations ruled over Israel, and which conquered the preceding kingdom, it is pretty well undisputed until Rome.
It is after Rome that veiws mainly diverge as to what the Feet and Toes represent.

Some see it as a form of continuance of Rome, as the Legs are made of Iron and the Feet and Toes also have iron in them.
I personally see the main constituent part of the Feet and Toes as Clay.
Further when you read the statement in Dan 2 in Aramaic it says the kingdom is a "mixed" kingdom. The word used is "arab".
So this for me points to the Feet kingdom being a different kingdom, which is initially of Arab roots - the Caliphate.
I'll leave you to read through and consider how we tie the AC into these OT prophecies and what timings we get. perhaps you saw it in another way?

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

Originally Posted by Fenris

One hears a lot of things and doesn't know what's considered true and what isn't.

So teach me.

Hey Fenris,

You will more than likely receive many different opinions on who or what the antichrist is depending on the school of thought of the poster. Premillennialism, postmillennialist and amiillennialist will all have different interpretation on who, what and when this figure arrived/arrives.

However, I will give you the answer that the earliest church fathers taught within the first 300 years. There were a few dissenting opinions such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria but they were the minority until after 300AD.

The earliest church fathers such as Ireneaus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, Papias, Lactantius and and Tertullian were overwhelmingly historic premillennialist and shared the same testimony regarding eschatology... Their views of this figure from the Old Testament are as follows

They believed that the Antichrist was the same person described in Ezekiel 38-39 as Gog and would lead a end time military compaign against the nation of Israel just prior to the times of the Messianic kingdom spoken of by the prophets. As many Jews accept Ezekiel 38-39 to be eschatological, the question the prophet asks “Are you he of who me I have spoken in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them?” (Eze 38:17). This question logically demanded that there was a king prophesied by the prophets prior to Ezekiel that represented a eschatological ruler prior to the kingdom age.

They associated him with the “little horn” of Daniel 7 and that Antiochus Epiphanes was a type and shadow of the world ruler to come. They believed that the Antichrist would fulfill the fullness of the prophecies of Daniel 7 and the later portions of Daniel 11. They also saw reference to him in many of the psalms...

Some associated him with the end time “Assyrian” of Micah 5:5-6 and Isaiah 10 that passes through the land, yet the Lord cuts off and subsequently restores the nation of Israel. He would be the world ruler at the time of the fulfillment of Haggai’s prophesies when God “overthrows the throne of kingdoms and destroy the strength of the gentile kingdoms” in order to establish both Jerusalem and the last Temple.

In many ways the Antichrist was simply the logical outcome of several of the accepted Messianic prophesies of a world conflict just prior to the Messianic age. The battle of Zechariah 14 would be lead by a anti-Semitic army which logically required a anti-Semitic leader. The title of anti messiah was in regards to his desire to rule both Israel and the nations from promised land by upsurping the promised positional inheritance of the Seed of David.

>>> snip One can see from these verses that these people were not persecutors, as is now commonly taught, but that they were false teachers. There is no statement or even a hint that they ever persecuted anyone. Oh how our theories have grown since the first century. This problem has been aggravated by the improper grouping of "antichrist" with "the man of sin" and the "beast" of Revelation. These are three different entities and should not be confused.

The teaching of "antichrist" is not teaching about 21st century events but rather it is teaching about first century events that were occurring as John was writing.

To tear these verses out of their first century historical settings and to attempt to apply them to current day events, of which they were never intended, does great disservice to the passages. The first century Christians stood in the face of much persecution and apostasy. May we be willing to uphold God’s teachings as found in his Word, the Bible. <<<

“But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here. 1 John 4:3 NIV

Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

Originally Posted by Cyberseeker

In 'your' Bible he is found in Daniel 11:29:32.

I think Jews understood that to be the king of Rome...but ok.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.