SHANGHAI — After three decades of spectacular growth, China passed Japan in the second quarter to become the world’s second-largest economy behind the United States, according to government figures released early Monday.

The milestone, though anticipated for some time, is the most striking evidence yet that China’s ascendance is for real and that the rest of the world will have to reckon with a new economic superpower.

The recognition came early Monday, when Tokyo said that Japan’s economy was valued at about $1.28 trillion in the second quarter, slightly below China’s $1.33 trillion. Japan’s economy grew 0.4 percent in the quarter, Tokyo said, substantially less than forecast. That weakness suggests that China’s economy will race past Japan’s for the full year.

Experts say unseating Japan — and in recent years passing Germany, France and Great Britain — underscores China’s growing clout and bolsters forecasts that China will pass the United States as the world’s biggest economy as early as 2030. America’s gross domestic product was about $14 trillion in 2009.

“This has enormous significance,” said Nicholas R. Lardy, an economist at the Peterson Institute for International Economics. “It reconfirms what’s been happening for the better part of a decade: China has been eclipsing Japan economically. For everyone in China’s region, they’re now the biggest trading partner rather than the U.S. or Japan.”

For Japan, whose economy has been stagnating for more than a decade, the figures reflect a decline in economic and political power. Japan has had the world’s second-largest economy for much of the last four decades, according to the World Bank. And during the 1980s, there was even talk about Japan’s economy some day overtaking that of the United States.

But while Japan’s economy is mature and its population quickly aging, China is in the throes of urbanization and is far from developed, analysts say, meaning it has a much lower standard of living, as well as a lot more room to grow. Just five years ago, China’s gross domestic product was about $2.3 trillion, about half of Japan’s.

This country has roughly the same land mass as the United States, but it is burdened with a fifth of the world’s population and insufficient resources.

Its per capita income is more on a par with those of impoverished nations like Algeria, El Salvador and Albania — which, along with China, are close to $3,600 — than that of the United States, where it is about $46,000.

Yet there is little disputing that under the direction of the Communist Party, China has begun to reshape the way the global economy functions by virtue of its growing dominance of trade, its huge hoard of foreign exchange reserves and United States government debt and its voracious appetite for oil, coal, iron ore and other natural resources.

China is already a major driver of global growth. The country’s leaders have grown more confident on the international stage and have begun to assert greater influence in Asia, Africa and Latin America, with things like special trade agreements and multibillion dollar resource deals.

“They’re exerting a lot of influence on the global economy and becoming dominant in Asia,” said Eswar S. Prasad, a professor of trade policy at Cornell and former head of the International Monetary Fund’s China division. “A lot of other economies in the region are essentially riding on China’s coat tails, and this is remarkable for an economy with a low per capita income.”

In Japan, the mood was one of resignation. Though increasingly eclipsed by Beijing on the world stage, Japan has benefited from a booming China, initially by businesses moving production there to take advantage of lower wages and, as local incomes have risen, by tapping a large and increasingly lucrative market for Japanese goods.

Beijing is also beginning to shape global dialogues on a range of issues, analysts said; for instance, last year it asserted that the dollar must be phased out as the world’s primary reserve currency.

And while the United States and the European Union are struggling to grow in the wake of the worst economic crisis in decades, China has continued to climb up the economic league tables by investing heavily in infrastructure and backing a $586 billion stimulus plan.

This year, although growth has begun to moderate a bit, China’s economy is forecast to expand about 10 percent — continuing a remarkable three-decade streak of double-digit growth.

“This is just the beginning,” said Wang Tao, an economist at UBS in Beijing. “China is still a developing country. So it has a lot of room to grow. And China has the biggest impact on commodity prices — in Russia, India, Australia and Latin America.”

There are huge challenges ahead, though. Economists say that China’s economy is too heavily dependent on exports and investment and that it needs to encourage greater domestic consumption — something China has struggled to do.

The country’s largely state-run banks have recently been criticized for lending far too aggressively in the last year while shifting some loans off their balance sheet to disguise lending and evade rules meant to curtail lending growth.

China is also locked in a fierce debate over its currency policy, with the United States, European Union and others accusing Beijing of keeping the Chinese currency, the renminbi, artificially low to bolster exports — leading to huge trade surpluses for China but major bilateral trade deficits for the United States and the European Union. China says that its currency is not substantially undervalued and that it is moving ahead with currency reform.

Regardless, China’s rapid growth suggests that it will continue to compete fiercely with the United States and Europe for natural resources but also offer big opportunities for companies eager to tap its market.

Although its economy is still only one-third the size of the American economy, China passed the United States last year to become the world’s largest market for passenger vehicles. China also passed Germany last year to become the world’s biggest exporter.

Global companies like Caterpillar, General Electric, General Motors and Siemens — as well as scores of others — are making a more aggressive push into China, in some cases moving research and development centers here.

Some analysts, though, say that while China is eager to assert itself as a financial and economic power — and to push its state companies to “go global” — it is reluctant to play a greater role in the debate over climate change or how to slow the growth of greenhouse gases.

China passed the United States in 2006 to become the world’s largest emitter of greenhouse gases, which scientists link to global warming. But China also has an ambitious program to cut the energy it uses for each unit of economic output by 20 percent by the end of 2010, compared to 2006.

Assessing what China’s newfound clout means, though, is complicated. While the country is still relatively poor per capita, it has an authoritarian government that is capable of taking decisive action — to stimulate the economy, build new projects and invest in specific industries.

That, Mr. Lardy at the Peterson Institute said, gives the country unusual power. “China is already the primary determiner of the price of virtually every major commodity,” he said. “And the Chinese government can be much more decisive in allocating resources in a way that other governments of this level of per capita income cannot.”

Yep, they're there because of us, but not for the reasons you like to claim.

Our country, as a whole, has gotten fat and lazy. Everyone expects more money and more benefits just for showing up to work. Meanwhile, the very same wants everything for nothing, and are unwilling to pay the price for the goods produced by the high costs of labor they demand.

Meanwhile, in China, people are willing to work hard for long hours, 6 and 7 days a week, happy just to take home a menial pay.

When the majority of the general public in this country gets back to principles of working hard for everything they want and need, and stop demanding everything for nothing, we'll have a chance of holding our #1 position. However, we're going in the wrong direction. Too many people in this country feel entitled. That attitude has to change.

Heh. Never miss a chance to espouse the Political Platform. Insert "broken record" analogy here.

Here. Allow me to fine tune it a bit for you:

R.W.E. (Real World Empowerment) wrote:

Our country, as a whole, has achieved success and a standard of living much of the world still envys. Most everyone works every hard in this, the most productive nation per capita on the face of the planet. We've learned the value of hard work, and have now been provided with outsourced goods at intensely low prices via allowing certain privileged citizens to essentially print money for themselves via exhorbitant profits. Meanwhile, in China, people have been enslaved by these American fat cats, working long hours, 6 and 7 days a week, just to avoid starvation on the farms in what used to be a primarily agricultural nation.

When the minority of the extreme right in this country gets back to principles of working with others to achieve everything they want and need, and stop demanding everyone do it their way only, we'll have a chance of holding our #1 position. However, we're going in the wrong direction. Too many people in this country feel superior. That attitude has to change.

Yep, they're there because of us, but not for the reasons you like to claim.

What claim?

Quote:

Everyone expects more money and more benefits just for showing up to work.

Funny you should type that. Ironic too.

Quote:

Everyone expects more money and more benefits just for showing up to work. Meanwhile, the very same wants everything for nothing, and are unwilling to pay the price for the goods produced by the high costs of labor they demand.

Irony strikes again.

Quote:

Meanwhile, in China, people are willing to work hard for long hours, 6 and 7 days a week, happy just to take home a menial pay.

Really? They are happy to do that now? Do tell.

Quote:

When the majority of the general public in this country gets back to principles of working hard for everything they want and need, and stop demanding everything for nothing, we'll have a chance of holding our #1 position. However, we're going in the wrong direction. Too many people in this country feel entitled. That attitude has to change.

Perfect, lets start with you, be a leader and practice what you preach... . Work 6-7 days a week, earn less than $5 dollars per hr, no benefits, no nothing and pave the way for us. And remember, when you and all of of us start doing what you're preaching, we will all be "happy" like the folks over in China, just like you said.

LOL. Goodwrench, you seriously ask "what claim"?
I've lost count how many times you've bitched about companies being rewarded for shipping jobs overseas. Just because you didn't post it here doesn't mean it's not the underlying premise behind your statement of "And yes, we put them there."

As for your claim of irony regarding my statements, care to back that up with an intelligent argument, or will you simple take another shot in the dark about me? LOL.

Ans to your "let's start with you" statement, I've been paid on my performance, in one way or another, for the last 20 years. I've been through good times and bad, and I've taken a minimum wage job when I needed to. Don't presume to know anything about me, because you've always been wrong when you try. How about you try making a solid point on the subject, instead?

And Bill, your editing of my post may make you feel better, but I'll just say this: that was true at one point in time, but for a long time now, too many people have been developing an attitude of entitlement, where they feel that they are above many jobs, or deserve a good salary and benefits just for being there. there aren't nearly enough willing to do whatever it takes to succeed any more. You and Goodwrench love to point to the higher ups, but never want to look at the work ethic of the employees.

LOL. Goodwrench, you seriously ask "what claim"?
I've lost count how many times you've bitched about companies being rewarded for shipping jobs overseas. Just because you didn't post it here doesn't mean it's not the underlying premise behind your statement of "And yes, we put them there."

I honestly thought he was referring to how we bought all their crap in the last two decades

And Bill, your editing of my post may make you feel better, but I'll just say this: that was true at one point in time, but for a long time now, too many people have been developing an attitude of entitlement, where they feel that they are above many jobs, or deserve a good salary and benefits just for being there. there aren't nearly enough willing to do whatever it takes to succeed any more. You and Goodwrench love to point to the higher ups, but never want to look at the work ethic of the employees.

Nah, Goodwrench and I are optmistic, and pragmatic. We don't condemn the entire American workforce for the sins of a few. We believe in America...not some romanticized 1950's era construct that is impossible to resurrect in modern times, but the America we have today. We believe in reality. We believe in playing the hand we are dealt, not just folding and watching everyone else play while we bitch about the game.

You can sh!t on American workers all you want...they are still worthy of so much more than your constant derision.

You can sh!t on American workers all you want...they are still worthy of so much more than your constant derision.

But there are certainly very many who take advantage of their situation in modern America. I'm surrounded by them 5 days/week. I've been unable to get things pushed up the ladder because a certain few are trying to minimize their workloads regardless of merit, and it can get frustrating when you're working your ass off just to see everyone around you playing Farmville (Not saying I'm the perfect worker; hell, I'm reading JBO on the clock right now...)

And Bill, your editing of my post may make you feel better, but I'll just say this: that was true at one point in time, but for a long time now, too many people have been developing an attitude of entitlement, where they feel that they are above many jobs, or deserve a good salary and benefits just for being there. there aren't nearly enough willing to do whatever it takes to succeed any more. You and Goodwrench love to point to the higher ups, but never want to look at the work ethic of the employees.

Nah, Goodwrench and I are optmistic, and pragmatic. We don't condemn the entire American workforce for the sins of a few. We believe in America...not some romanticized 1950's era construct that is impossible to resurrect in modern times, but the America we have today. We believe in reality. We believe in playing the hand we are dealt, not just folding and watching everyone else play while we bitch about the game.

You can sh!t on American workers all you want...they are still worthy of so much more than your constant derision.

LOL. You guys like to make yourselves feel better and more enlightened with your claims of pragmatism and being an independent centrist, but you constantly spew liberal rhetoric, and bash any conservative arguments as extreme. Sorry to tell you, but you're not in the middle, you're on the left. Also, from the way you post, you're not even close to reality. You have more of a head-in-the-sand attitude about most discussions here, where you would rather see everyone just ignore anything going on, because "that's just how it is".

As for my constant derision of the American worker, no where have I said "all" workers. As a matter of fact, I know plenty of good hard working people. However, I've sadly met as many lazy leeches, and examples of the entitlement mentality I speak of. I've seen it plenty first hand during my years of hiring employees, and having to let people go who bitch about having to work hard, and use the argument of showing up to work on time as somehow something to be praised, rather than expected.

LOL. Goodwrench, you seriously ask "what claim"?
I've lost count how many times you've bitched about companies being rewarded for shipping jobs overseas. Just because you didn't post it here doesn't mean it's not the underlying premise behind your statement of "And yes, we put them there."

That would account about 25% of what were my intentions. The question is; am I wrong?

Quote:

As for your claim of irony regarding my statements, care to back that up with an intelligent argument, or will you simple take another shot in the dark about me? LOL.

This quote of: "Everyone expects more money and more benefits just for showing up to work." and since it is coming from you (being a "yes-man" to wealthy) it is only fair to say you meant that quote for the "blue-collar" or "working class."
The top want more money too and not to mention more benefits, ie "tax breaks"... no harm right, I mean we've doing tax breaks for the past 30 years. See where the irony on how both the top and bottom want the same, in regards to your statement? The problem here is how do we all achieve "the more?" See... this is the part where the "blue-collar" or "working class" really don't have leverage. But the top do, especially when you have the backing of the government, ie tax breaks. The top will look for more profits (no harm), but when they do, a good portion looks overseas, like China. Case in point, this article.

Irony number two.

Quote:

Meanwhile, the very same wants everything for nothing, and are unwilling to pay the price for the goods produced by the high costs of labor they demand.

Contrary to your beliefs, the top is also guilty of this too. The top is unwilling to pay the salaries all in the name of profits. If I'm lying, then this very same article would not exist and this American name computer that I'm typing to you would not have a label that says: "Made in China" on the back.
Also as much as you hate to read this, therefore I must type it. Maximise profits, that's capitalism.

Quote:

-When the majority of the general public in this country gets back to principles of working hard for everything they want and need, and stop demanding everything for nothing, we'll have a chance of holding our #1 position. However, we're going in the wrong direction. Too many people in this country feel entitled. That attitude has to change.
-Ans to your "let's start with you" statement, I've been paid on my performance, in one way or another, for the last 20 years. I've been through good times and bad, and I've taken a minimum wage job when I needed to. Don't presume to know anything about me, because you've always been wrong when you try. How about you try making a solid point on the subject, instead?

You preach high and mighty that "the people" are demanding to much and "Too many people in this country feel entitled". Then why don't you cut down to just the basics? Go to your boss and tell him/her; "I want to work like in a Chinese sweatshop", or are you a victim of feeling "entitled" too. I mean what is the difference with your salary here in the US vs. the same work done, but with the salary equivalent of a Chinese worker? What makes you better? Why should YOU get more? Feel a little entitled over you Chinese counterpart?
But when you do make your heroic move of less pay and more work, you can make your employer feel all moist inside as he/she does not have to pay your $55 million salary.

OHV notec wrote:

I honestly thought he was referring to how we bought all their crap in the last three decades

Fixed for accuracy, and according to this same article too.
That would be the other 25%.

Another epic post that boils down to one simple thing: you don't get it, and you obviously never will. You make assumptions, and miss the point because of it. You spew rhetoric "evil corporations don't want to pay the salaries", etc....We've been over this. You have no idea what goes into the costs of running a company, and how small the "huge profits" really are in the scope of it. You think every company is out there to screw the worker and make ridiculous amounts of money, but the fact is that most companies have a very small net profit margin, which means a small percentage of cost increase could easily nullify their profits.

As for your other assumption that it's only fair to say I meant that quote for the "blue-collar" or "working class.", you're wrong. An employee is an employee, and at every level there are people unwilling to actually earn their pay.

Regarding your last bit of idiocy, which proves yet again how you don't get it, I did not say people should accept less than they earn, I said people need to stop expecting a high salary/wage just for showing up to work. Like I said, in one way or another, I've been paid for my performance for most of my adult life. I didn't just negotiate a salary and then show up to work, I either worked on some form of commission, or worked my ass off to get the raises to the salary I earned.

Since you're trying to paint me with your hypocrisy brush and failing, try looking in the mirror:

Quote:

If I'm lying, then this very same article would not exist and this American name computer that I'm typing to you would not have a label that says: "Made in China" on the back.

For all the bitching you do about jobs being shipped overseas, it looks to me like you're enjoying the benefits of it.

Another epic post that boils down to one simple thing: you don't get it, and you obviously never will. You make assumptions, and miss the point because of it. You spew rhetoric "evil corporations don't want to pay the salaries", etc....We've been over this.

And yet you still "don't get it."
If they did want to pay the salaries, why is it my electronics are made outside? My 27Cu-ft Frigidaire that used to be made by GM in America, says "Made in Mexico." But yes, you're right, corporations love to pay American salaries, that's why everything is made here, just like 30+ years ago.

Quote:

You have no idea what goes into the costs of running a company, and how small the "huge profits" really are in the scope of it.

My career consist with working with small business to large corporations and advertise for them, they give us a budget and we go from there. Being the repeat customers they are, we know how/when the budget has either increased or decreased with each ad that we make for them. A good indication is their ad space and price they paid and trust me as long as I've been there, there has yet to be a decrease.
But you know so much that the rest doesn't. And it proves so well with crap that you shit out.

Quote:

Regarding your last bit of idiocy, which proves yet again how you don't get it, I did not say people should accept less than they earn, I said people need to stop expecting a high salary/wage just for showing up to work.

The same with the top. Difference is the bottom will get fired, while the top will get a nice bonus, whether being in the contract or not, there should not be any bonus for failure.

Quote:

Like I said, in one way or another, I've been paid for my performance for most of my adult life. I didn't just negotiate a salary and then show up to work, I either worked on some form of commission, or worked my ass off to get the raises to the salary I earned.

Accommodating BS life story. You're better off telling it to Scotty.

R.W.E. of the J.B.O. wrote:

Since you're trying to paint me with your hypocrisy brush and failing, try looking in the mirror:

Quote:

If I'm lying, then this very same article would not exist and this American name computer that I'm typing to you would not have a label that says: "Made in China" on the back.

For all the bitching you do about jobs being shipped overseas, it looks to me like you're enjoying the benefits of it.

When you find me a 2010 computer that is: "Made in USA." tell me about it ok numb-nuts.
But really, could I expect any more from you?

just, the stupidity of your "national debt" (LOL) sig, WTF, you really don't know why billery had it made was because of Regan.
No, your blind to that fact.

I really don't get you, your and enigma to me.

Anywho, carry on!

Chris

"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

And yet you still "don't get it."
If they did want to pay the salaries, why is it my electronics are made outside? My 27Cu-ft Frigidaire that used to be made by GM in America, says "Made in Mexico." But yes, you're right, corporations love to pay American salaries, that's why everything is made here, just like 30+ years ago.

Because you'd buy that same refrigerator if it was 10 times the cost, right? Companies can't just keep raising their prices. Face it, the left claims the companies are screwing the consumer when their prices are raised, and they're screwing the employee when their wages aren't. There's no hope in appeasing someone like you. The companies are just all out to screw someone in your mind.

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

Quote:

You have no idea what goes into the costs of running a company, and how small the "huge profits" really are in the scope of it.

My career consist with working with small business to large corporations and advertise for them, they give us a budget and we go from there. Being the repeat customers they are, we know how/when the budget has either increased or decreased with each ad that we make for them. A good indication is their ad space and price they paid and trust me as long as I've been there, there has yet to be a decrease.
But you know so much that the rest doesn't. And it proves so well with crap that you @!#$ out.

Great. You know their advertising budgets. How about their overhead? How about their loaded labor costs? How about their net profit margins at the end of the year? I've read your bullsh!t long enough to know you don't have much first hand knowledge here.

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

...whether being in the contract or not, there should not be any bonus for failure.

Well, we have some common ground here.

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

Accommodating BS life story. You're better off telling it to Scotty.

It's truth. Maybe you BS your resume (hey, you're in marketing, where half of it's BS, anyway, so you probably don't even realize you're doing it), but when I put down my achievements on mine, they can be verified. And it was you who first started making it about me, remember? Don't cry when I pull the rug out from under you.

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

When you find me a 2010 computer that is: "Made in USA." tell me about it ok numb-nuts.
But really, could I expect any more from you?

According to your statements, it would seem that you believe in people taking the first step of hardship to prove their point, so why don't you refuse to use a computer, since they're not "Made in USA"? Stop using your electronics because they're not made here. After all, you want to have me accept $5/hour because I think too many employees in this country want too much for too little. What's good for the goose...

So.... did you ever pass econ 101?
just, the stupidity of your "national debt" (LOL) sig, WTF, you really don't know why billery had it made was because of Regan.
No, your blind to that fact.

I like this reasoning. This would project that in about eight years, whoever is the current president can then thank Obama for the increase of the national debt during his term. Here's hoping its a Republican so he'll know who to thank. Good call, Chris!

I also especially like that the current national debt has ballooned partially due to tax cuts the Bush administration passed. Yes, yes...what goes around does indeed come around!

As for my constant derision of the American worker, no where have I said "all" workers.

Mmm kay. I shall limit this to your comments in this thread only, so as to save space:

R.W.E. of the J.B.O. wrote:

Our country, as a whole, has gotten fat and lazy.

Everyone expects more money and more benefits just for showing up to work.

Bill, you...never want to look at the work ethic of the employees. (not SOME employees...THE employees.)

You'll have to retract SOMETHING to correct this inconsistency.
Just sayin, all I can read is what you type...or in this case, what you STEREOtype

Alright, I'll give you that I said everyone. That was not my intention. However, there is a large chunk of our population that falls under this statement. I meet hard working people every day struggling to make ends meet. I also meet lazy people who are unemployed, but turn down a job because it's not good enough for them, and "if they're not going to be paid what they're worth, they might as well just stay home". I've also hired, and had to fire, people who will accept the explanation of being paid for performance, but then almost immediately start complaining that they don't get paid enough, while the guy next to them is perfectly happy, because he's performing, and getting paid well. We can also get into the talk about many of the labor unions, where the group will work to slow production in order to draw out the job, or to get the company to hire more workers to increase production. The fact is that there are many things at the employee level that cause a lot of the problems, but too many people are ready to blame the companies for just being greedy.

Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

I also especially like that the current national debt has ballooned partially due to tax cuts the Bush administration passed.

Oh, come on, Bill. We've been over this. Following those cuts, the revenue increased. You keep trying to point to something else, but it was the cuts that did it. Conversely, when they go up next year, we're going to slow even more than we are. The current ballooning has nothing to do with anything more than out of control spending.

Thank you. I was offended by your portrayal of all America as fat, lazy and no-count. You sounded downright European there.

No, no matter what economic "treats' those tax cuts resulted in THEN, the fact that they are still in place NOW is just another reason why the deficit burgeons. It's a dirty little secret that Repubs prefer to sweep under the rug, for it's WAY easier (and vote-getting!) to pass tax CUTS...than tax INCREASES. Nice way to screw the next administration, as they have to then pick up the pieces and risk being called a lexicon of nasty names by exercising some fiscal responsibility and re-strengthen revenue streams.

Thank you. I was offended by your portrayal of all America as fat, lazy and no-count. You sounded downright European there.

You're welcome. It was definitely not my intent. I usually check my wording before hitting post, but I obviously did not with that one. LOL @ sounding European. That would be quite a turn around for me, would it not?

Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

No, no matter what economic "treats' those tax cuts resulted in THEN, the fact that they are still in place NOW is just another reason why the deficit burgeons. It's a dirty little secret that Repubs prefer to sweep under the rug, for it's WAY easier (and vote-getting!) to pass tax CUTS...than tax INCREASES. Nice way to screw the next administration, as they have to then pick up the pieces and risk being called a lexicon of nasty names by exercising some fiscal responsibility and re-strengthen revenue streams.

I have to say, as much as you and I disagree on many things, it does surprise me to see that you are falling hook, line, and sinker for the never-ending "it's Bush's fault. I inherited this mess" monologue coming from the Whitehouse. If those cuts weren't passed, we would have continued the trend of declining revenue that started in 2000. You say we wouldn't be as bad off, I say we would have been worse, although the housing bubble may have been smaller, with a smaller relative crash. After all, more employed people keeping more of their own money would have a positive effect on housing numbers, as well. But I firmly believe we'd still be worse off now had the economy not been turned around with those cuts.

it is a proven fact that when government leaves the people to engage in commerce with little government involvement the country prospers.
The fed came out in the early 1900's to stop the build and bust cycle in the economy. Since they came nothing changed but more regulation.
We need more presidents like coolidge, people who understood the value of limited government mandate.

How can I be "falling for"...the truth? You may not like it, it may be the point of view liberals like to toss around (and rightly so, for it's strong and makes perfect sense)...but the facts don't lie.

You see, it's not that I "agree" with Liberals on this one...they agree with ME.

I don't doubt that the tax cuts had a positive impact, under the circumstances during which they were introduced. I wasn't against them then. The point is, we are in COMPLETELY different circumstances now, and such dire circumstances require strong, courageous...and DIFFERENT measures. Probably unpopular measures too, but the party is indeed over. The rich kids took their new toys and went home. Empty beer cans and ciggie butts litter the landscape, and someone's gotta clean up this mess.

The facts don't lie? OK, then unemployment drops (actual, unlike what's been called "dropping" unemployment now), and revenues increase when tax rates are lowered. Our revenue and employment were declining, and it was turned around. Had this not happened, Obama would have inherited a larger deficit, with likely similar unemployment. Now tack his spending onto that deficit, and we're in a situation of higher deficits than we have now.

As for the liberals agreeing with you now, they're not saying anything different than they ever have: we need to raise taxes. The fact is that now you think they're right. It's your opinion that has changed, not their talking points. I call that falling for it.

Remember that if you look at tax rate cuts as a revenue loss, it's because you believe that the economy is a zero-sum equation. It is far from it. The government taking a higher percentage of it results in in shrinking, ultimately leading to lower revenues. The reverse is also true. We can't get our of either part of the mess (unemployment or declining revenue) if they raise taxes. To keep this somewhat on topic, look at what China has been doing with taxes.

(hey, you're in marketing, where half of it's BS, anyway, so you probably don't even realize you're doing it)

ZING!

True Conservative wrote:

it is a proven fact that when government leaves the people to engage in commerce with little government involvement the country prospers.

[citation needed] Let's just look at countries with little/no government. How are they doing? Government serves a purpose, and it can be most beneficial when the stars align. How do you define "little"? These broad descriptions can be interpreted in so many ways. Pure, unadultered free-market would clearly be a disaster; just need to find that apex.

R.W.E. of the J.B.O. wrote:

Remember that if you look at tax rate cuts as a revenue loss, it's because you believe that the economy is a zero-sum equation. It is far from it. The government taking a higher percentage of it results in in shrinking, ultimately leading to lower revenues. The reverse is also true.

There is an apex though, beyond which this is not true. This point would change based on many different factors. If you just kept cutting taxes, given anything even remotely resembling realistic circumstances, you would eventually get to a point where revenue would decrease. It's up to the well-compensated economists to find that tipping point; in comparison, you and Bill/Goodwrench are basically taking wild-guesses as to what would best turn us around at this point in time...