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There's always the possibility. It's allowed and the 100% simulcast rule isn't in effect, yet. Last year, WKRC-DT carried the HD game regardless of the game showing on WKRC-12. But, the chief engineer was making the call and he now works for WCPO. The new guy's name is Jim Gilbert, should you wish to call. I'm sure he'll tell you. I haven't had the time to make contact, myself.

I know this may be a little bit of apples and oranges, but if i can pick up a good digital feed from wsyx could i assume that if i went to my attic and messed around with my antenna that I could get a similar signal from wbns. I mention this because several here seem to know about the location of towers, the power of transmissions, and such. I may try to email some area cbs locals today and see if i get a response (teacher- snow day- if your wondering!).

WSYX is at 59 kW on 13. So, lower power but it's VHF instead of UHF. I can't get them, but that's because I don't have a good VHF antenna. (I tried hooking up an FM antenna I had, but it doesn't seem to work too well.)

WBNS-DT is running either 700kW (STA) or a full 1 MW on ch. 21.
WCMH-DT is most likely at a 288kW STA (CP for 902 kW) on ch. 14.
WOSU-DT says 250 kW (CP Mod) on 38.
WTTE-DT is at flea power. They have two STA's, 2.4kW, 11.2kW. CP for 1 MW.

I get WBNS but WCMH doesn't quite lock on. Looking at their pattern, I think I'm in a null.

You can't compare power directly between VHF+UHF stations. It takes much less power to cover the same area with VHF than is the case with UHF. Also, the longer wavelengths of VHF propagate a little better/easier over terrain, and even the limit of curvature of Earth. I'll get back to this in a little more detail a bit later.

If I recall correctly, I beleive WBNS-DT is at 1MW. They are shown as licensed for 1MW on FCC site, their last STA (granted for 6 months) expired near end of 2002 according to FCC site.

Looks like 1450khz is at about a 256 degree bearing from WCMH-DT --- According to their pattern, that would equate to about a .723 relative field value in your direction ... Not sure, but I think they are using the 288KW ERP STA(you'd get 288 KW erp sent your way if the relative field value was 1.000 in your direction) To calucate ERP sent in 1450khz direction from that ... (.723x.723) x 288,000 watts = 150.5 KW being sent in his direction... So, a bit of a Null, but they don't really have any big nulls, as the pattern isn't all that directional.

On WTTE-DT, I'm guessing(just guessing) they are at 11.2KW ERP STA now. There has been at least one other STA(for 4KW), and maybe another that used to pop up on FCC site for them, but I'm only seeing the 2 1450khz mentioned now. Last summer, I sent them a reception report when I pulled them in via tropo, which was shortly after they moved to antenna on top of the tower from a temporary antenna(the 2.4KW ERP STA) which was barely off the ground, and only a few feet higher Above sea level wise than MY antenna. This is a portion of the reply from one of their engineer's:

"We are making a little more than 4kw now,
it is 8.4 kw now that we've moved to the good transmit antenna. "

Dan Carpenter

:end quote

As you say WSYX is on VHF at 59KW ERP, which is quite High Powered for DTV on VHF channel 13 - It's the max FCC will let them do presently. 13.7KW ERP is what WCPO-DT is running, that's not low power for VHF either, and generally seems to cover their service area quite well -- It is the Max they'll let WCPO-DT do, my guess is, Co-channel issue with WBNS 10 are probably the biggest reason why they aren't allowed to do more, presently. The absolute Max allowed for DTV on 7-13 is something like 160KW ERP, we won't see much of that until the analogs are shut off, but I think there are a couple of DTV stations in U.S. (out of a little less than a couple hundred with current VHF DTV allocations) which have 160KW ERP CP's.

The Max allowed on UHF for DTV is 1,000KW ERP. Not all stations are allowed to do that much though --because of co-channel/adjacent channel interference issues/etc, and many are running STA's at various power levels to save on utility bills for as long as FCC will let them .. High power UHF transmitters can use over 6 figures in utility bills per year - I don't recall the exact number for Max DTV power allowed for Lo-VHF(2-6), but I think it is something like 50KW, although, no current lo-VHF station I know of is doing more than 7.5KW ERP currently, and there are only a couple low-VHF DTV stations with full power allocations over 10KW ERP ...Again, likely because of Co-channel interference issues with analog stations. The highest power DTV CP in U.S. currrently is 36.4 KW ERP, a station in Lexington, KY(which is actually running a very directional antenna at 7.5KW ERP STA presently).

The DTV max power limits roughly equates(actually, relatively speaking it's "more" power allowed for DTV Maximums than analog - more on this below) to the maximum allowed for analogs -- Which is, 100KW ERP on Low-VHF(there are more "detailed" max power limits depending upon antenna height with low-VHF), 316KW ERP for Vhf-HI(7-13), and 5,000KW ERP for UHF.

Also, DTV ERP is different than NTSC ERP -- NTSC ERP power is expressed in "peak" terms, DTV is average. Also, with DTV ... ~12db less signal is needed to get "good DTV reception" than is the case for a so-called "grade B" analog signal - It was defined by FCC as a 12db difference anyway, and the original Table of allocations for DTV were based on that difference ... They modified that later though, and "upped the power" on the CP's, although, the 12db is pretty accurate -- but of course, getting inside buildings and over terrain with signals rather than to antennas with 10db gain on 30feet antennas outdoors is a little different story ..

I do know I've been very impressed at how well "LP" DTV does. For example - At first, WCET-DT was running a 7KW ERP STA. One of their engineers posted that at that time on the Cincy thread that they were using a 250 Watt Solid State Amp, and add in the antenna gain, and you get 7KW ERP. They moved to their "real" transmitter and a 215KW ERP STA last spring. From 32 miles distant and with some terrain issue involved I had absolutely no problems receiving them at the 7KW ERP, in fact, except for slightly higher signal quality readings, I couldn't tell any difference when they increased power.

OF course, indoor antennas and more severe terrain issues where LP DTV is concerned would likely be a different story -- But still ... In field tests/etc that have been performed that I have seen, getting the transmitting antenna up nice and high often seems to be more important for DTV than running high power levels, since we don't have to look at "snow" ...

Although, again, certianly, Higher power is going to do better when terrain issues(especially fringe areas), and getting into buildings are concerned ...

Where VHF is concerned however ... the longer wavelengths involved can also get around terrain issues(even a little farther beyond curvature of Earth) much moreso than UHF, and of course it takes much less power on VHF to cover the same area as is the case on UHF ... This isn't the best, or most technically accurate explanation, but in the interests of trying to keep this somewhat short: One of the simple reasons for this is, because VHF wavelentghs are longer, The Receiving antenna has to be "bigger" to be resonant and work well on VHF frequencies, so it is easier for more of the signal to "fall on" the antenna. The "bigger" the antenna, the more energy can "fall" on it ....

Originally posted by jenkinswoodyI'm confused- The silver sensor is a uhf antenna correct? How am I picking up wsyx if its vhf? Is their digital uhf and thats why?

WSYX-DT transmits on VHF 13. Last I saw them, they remapped to 6-1. The DT at the end of the callsign means it's a digital station. Analog WSYX transmits on VHF 6. Any coathanger can pick up a signal if there is enough there ... In other words, if you're lucky(or close to the towers) in some cases you can receive VHF on UHF antennas. You can't allways say 2+2=4 with this stuff(especially when you are comparing VHF+UHF stations), but since WBNS/WSYX/WCMH are on towers that are very near each other, and from nice high transmitting heights, and WBNS-DT/WSYX-DT are running non-directional antennas(omni), If you're getting WSYX-DT on a UHF silver sensor, seems reasonable to expect you'd have a good shot at WBNS-DT 21(remaps to 10-x) and maybe even some of the other Columbus UHF stations as well.

But a UHF silver sensor antenna isn't going to have much gain(probably none, or less when compared to a reference dipole "cut" for channel 13 - rabbit ears adjusted to 1/2 wavelenth for 210MHZ would be a example of a reference dipole with no appreciable gain), or work anywhere near as well on VHF as a real VHF antenna would ...even rabbit ears ... VHF signals do tend to propagate easier than UHF(as explained above -- even with much less power than on UHF), and are generally more easily received on simple, indoor antennas, and many people have had sucess receiving VHF Hi band(ch 7-13) signals with antennas such as Silver Sensor and UHF bowties.

Originally posted by 1450kHzI tried hooking up an FM antenna I had, but it doesn't seem to work too well.

If you don't need the Lo-VHF's, Here's a couple of hi-band VHF(ch 7-13 antennas which might work for you(or many others in our area), and would be smaller than most multi-element FM or broadband VHF antennas(especially where element length is concerned) :

Also, If I recall Correctly, on their line card info, Wintronic carries both Blonder-Tongue and maybe antenna craft lines --- Haven't heard anyone using one of these, but there is a ch 7-13 Antennacraft (120" boom) antenna at Stark for around $35 (3 antenna pics from bottom) ...

Blonder-Tongue makes a the BTY-LP-HB for Hi-VHF ch 7-13(104"x34") ... I'm sure its a fine antenna, but they build their stuff like "tanks" for professional use(doesn't make them have more gain) and it's something over $200. Blonder tongue's antenna catalog here(requires acrobat reader):

The low VHF channels 2-6 and FM are why we need the really long elements -- about 8'~ long on broadband VHF antennas(or why rabbit ears can(or should anyway) extend to be so long) --- Personally, I use a broadband antenna that covers VHF 2-6/FM+7-13, For DTV/Analogs AND FM, but Right now, just for VHF DTV in SW/Central Ohio area, all we need is antenna for hi-VHF (WCPO-DT 10, WSYX-DT 13 -- And for anyone up "way up" North, WLIO-DT 8 Lima)...

Of course, it's too early to say, but many stations with VHF lo band analog allocations currently seem to be planning on using their current UHF DTV allocations after analog shut off because of noise/interference problems on lo-VHF - They might change their minds though ... I keep forgetting to ask WLWT, but I or others I know have talked to folks at just about all the other VHF-lo stations within 100 miles+ of Dayton, and they all, currently seem to be planning on not using VHF-LO for their DTV after analog shut off, although they also say they haven't made the "de-facto" decision yet, and I'd think they won't until FCC requires them to for Channel Election Deadline(I think FCC is going to be setting Channel election Deadline in their upcoming MO&O for the 2nd DTV review they are doing, which is currently ongoing - The NPRM was issued over a year ago, and the first review took around, or a little over a year).

I would expect however, that other stations will use empty allocations on 2-6, unless FCC decides to remove it from the TV bands after analog shut off, which I personally doubt, but you never know I suppose ...

WKRC-DT did the multicast up until CBS started offering the tournament in HD. Since then, they have done the HD game on 31 and whatever's regularly scheduled on 12. I would imagine they'll stay that way since they don't run a flexicoder and changing the configuration requires shutting the thing down. Not a good idea with Webhopper clients.

But I'm speculating. I haven't had time to contact WKRC to see.

However, if things work out as they did last year, WHIO and WKRC didn't always carry the same game on analog. Add in the HD game on DT and you have access to three games. Some of the time, anyway .

In the Time Warner bill I got today, they include a notice that effective April 19, 2004, they will introduce a High Definition tier, which will include INHD, INHD2, HDNet, and HDMovies, for the low, low price of $7.95 per month.

I would expect this means that ESPN-HD will be headed to this tier as well.

FYI+FWIW, I sent a note to Roland Martel, CE at WKEF/WRGT yesterday asking for an update on Fox Widescreen from WRGT-DT+ automated switching for both WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT which he had told us about in Feb. I also mentioned the crease to left of Fox bug as well as the non-reception related dropouts during NBC HD on 51-1. --- If I hear anything back, I'll post or hopefully Roland can post an update here.

I did notice NBC HD was missing tonight from WKEF-DT for "ER" and "Tonight Show", it was fine on WLWT-DT Cincinnati. Except for a couple of shows missing HD(Such as American Dreams 2 weeks ago - it fine last sunday)They've done such a great job providing NBC HD as of late, unless they are working on things hopefully the missing HD tonight was just an exception, considering other recent "developments" ....

In the Time Warner bill I got today, they include a notice that effective April 19, 2004, they will introduce a High Definition tier, which will include INHD, INHD2, HDNet, and HDMovies, for the low, low price of $7.95 per month.

I would expect this means that ESPN-HD will be headed to this tier as well.

I'm hoping that they roll out the HD-DVR at this time too, so that way the price increase will be a wash after i get rid of my current HD box and SD DVR... Might be time to get rid of all those digital stations in the 100's that i never watch too...

Originally posted by HangEmHiI would expect this means that ESPN-HD will be headed to this tier as well.

ESPN-HD is most likely the reason for the tier since its per-subscriber fee is much higher than the others. I think that's the reason TW's lagged in adding ESPN-HD.. they didn't want to pay the upcharge. FWIW, the charge - plus box rental - puts TW on a par with Insight and DirecTV.

Any idea if they are adding indemandHD? I wonder if you can subscribe to the movie HD channels only and not have to pay for every one. And finally if they are going to have an HD tier will they add Cinemax HD, StarzHD, and any others not mentioned?

If they're like most systems, the premium HD movie channels (HBO, Starz, etc) will come with subscriptions to those services at no additional charge. The HD tier will be populated by the other HD channels such as InHD, HDNet, DiscoveryHD, ESPN-HD, etc.

HD PPV will most likely be independant of any tier, just like regular PPV.

My understanding at this point for tonight is that they (WBNS) are going to dump out of multicast when the HD game from Kansas City starts, and show that game on their digital....but I'm not sure if that is true or not.

I flipped over to WHIO analog when I was having some problems with dropouts on WBNS but didn't want to have to turn my antenna around to get WHIO-DT or WKRC-DT.

OK, so i tried something new the other night. I have been reading on these forums that the built in hd decoder in my set is capable of receiving unscrambled digital cable signals. So right now I pay for roadrunner and standard basic cable. I thought it would be interesting to try to split my cable feed to see if my tv would receive any of the digital stations. So I did some wire fishing and splitting and to my surprise I could pull in about 20 channels. I was really happy to notice that I had the "INHD" channels. Now comes the strange thing. I did the initial wiring on Thursday night, and I was getting a strong signal on the cable line(important since I have nearly 200ft of wire from the set to the box outside) around 85 or so. I went to bed feeling pretty good. The next day I fire it up, of corse when I have some friends over to show them how nice HD looks, and nothing. I was getting like no signal from any of the HD channels. I could still get 93(fox) and all the pbs channels except pbshd, but nothing else. So to my dismay it doesn't work after all . I was really hoping that by hooking up the cable I could get a more constant signal from my locals. My OTA setup is still really quirky. I'll be watching a channel for say an hour and then all the sudden it drops to like a signal of ~25 and stays that way for a good 5 or ten minutes. It is really nice when you are watching a show like CSI and you miss the last 5 minutes due to "weak signal." So anyways I guess I need to look into an outdoor UHF only antenna that is going to pull in stations better. It really is funny though, because I can sit on my back porch and see the towers. The problem is my path to the towers is directly through lots of trees. I don't know, it all seems silly to me that you buy a set with all this new technology inside and yet it relies on a piece of hardware(antenna) from a hundred years ago. Thanks for listening to me complain.

Cable uses a different encoding scheme than ATSC. QAM and 8VSB are not compatible, although a few cable companies do use the OTA (8VSB) scheme. If you're that close to the towers, I would guess that enough of the OTA signal leaked into the cable system that your receiver got a lock. It's like when you tune to a cable channel that's the same as an OTA analog channel and you can see the ghost of the OTA channel in the system.

Sets that incorporate an addressable digital cable decoder (are there any, yet?) still have to be authorized by the cable system in order to work. At least that's my understanding.

I don't know about jbh613's set, but most of the newest chips in the newest STB's handle both (OTA ATC)8VSB+QAM(digital cable), because of the digital cable Plug&Play ruling+ ATSC Tuner mandate. I'd think the manual for the set/etc. should hopefully have some info/specs if it does do QAM, and or/ is "digital cable Plug&Play ready"/etc. ...

If it does do QAM(I'd think that's what TW Dayton is using, but just guessing), --- If his "subscription" covers the unscrambled digital/HD channels, seems like he might be able to get them -- as you say, the cableco might have to set it up ...

jbh613,

I know we've discussed your OTA reception situation before, so don't know what else I can add, but some thoughts FWIW ..

#1. If you can see the towers -- regardless of whether the trees are there, you should be able to easily get good reception. I don't know what is going on and there may be something quite "odd" going on, but there should be a way for you to get reliable reception of the Dayton, and probably Cincinnati stations too.

Antenna and RF is more "hi-tech" than sending signal over Wires! Wires came before "wireless"! I think it's funny that the "wireless" part of services that involve monthly subscription fees are often touted as some high-technology break through ... But the truth is, where the important fundamentals are concerned that make these services work, there is NO difference between them and how OTA TV, Radio broadcasting or Marconi's signals via "morse code". RF is RF, and if you ever want to do a little digging involving the physics involved, you might be surprised at how "how tech" sending and receiving radio waves is as compared to sending them over a wire(or even fiber optic) ....

Hard to say, but I doubt the trees are causing you too much difficulty. Not to say comparing between locations is a good idea -- but FWIW, I have all kinds of trees nearby+between me and the Cincy towers, I can get most of the Cincy/Dayton digitals just fine with the $3 RS "outline bowtie" placed near a window facing the towers.

Trees attenuate signal a bit, but not by a large factor - Not a good idea though to have a nearby antenna aimed right into a tree trunk though. Trees/leaves don't "create" multipath, but they can be multipath factors as they can change the "multipath conditions" by blocking a bit(especially on higher frequencies/channels) of the direct signal+multipath echoes, and things can change with the multipath conditions at a location because of the difference between leaves being on trees and off. I don't have any problems with the digitals, but when the wind is blowing the tree limbs around a lot, it does cause some dynamic multipath conditions that cause fluttery ghosts on stations such as WKEF 22, WRGT 45 - "sort of" like(but not as bad) the fluttery ghosts I get on analogs(still no problem with digital) when a plane flies through the signal path.

Anyhow, seems strange that you can go an hour and things are fine, and then it you lose it for 5-10 minutes ... If it is that "stopwatchable", I have to wonder if there is some sort of interference issue involved - Seeing what happens to the analogs when the reception problems occur might tell you something. Could be multipath too I suppose -- difficult to try to guess with the antenna indoors what all the potential multipath are ... but I can't really think of any potential cause of multipath outdoors that would "only" be there once an hour or so, and 5-10 minutes at a time.

well as far as the cable situation, my hitachi manual says that my decoder is for " an un-encrypted digital CATV input" it then goes on to say "you may ask your local cable company whether DTV services are available. So basically I know that Thursday night it worked, now it doesnt, oh well I'm just frustrated with the whole thing. It just makes me want the whole switchover to all HD broadcast to happen sooner so the broadcasters have to offer a more reliable data stream. It kills me how you guys pull in all those channels when I have seriously tried everything I can to get a good signal that doesnt drop. I've almost decided that it could just be the tuner in my set, but I really have no way to figure that out. At this point I am willing to seek professional help(for the tv not me...... yet) does anyone here know of a local professional on antennas and setups?

Originally posted by jbh613Does anyone here know of a local professional on antennas and setups?

If I recall correctly, there are a couple of folks on some of the archived Cincy threads who had good results from some installers in the Cincy area(you'll have to search through the Cincy threads to find the info), I don't know if those outfits service the Dayton area.

My Dayton Phone book is only the white pages, but in the Middletown book, all I see listed under "antenna" is Starpath Satellite in Hunter.(That's just a couple miles East of I-75 at Middletown 122 exit).

In their ad, it says they do 4DTV (that's big dish(sat) HD), so it's possible they might have an installer there that knows OTA H(DTV) and OTA antennas as well. Who knows, they might even have a spectrum analyzer and hopefully they might know how to use it as well, who knows. I looked them up on web, doesn't look like they have a website, but here is the contact info for them:

Franklin

Starpath Satellite Systems
4169 State Route #122
Franklin 45005

(513) 746-4986
(513) 746-4911 FAX

-------------------------

I had heard, at least at some point that Radio Shack did antenna installs as well, but I don't know what sort of service or installation you'd get.