I think Honda pulling out after spending so many millions of dollars is absurd. They should look to remain in F1 and the Sauber deal I think is the perfect partnership for them. It's well-know that Sauber employs some of the best engineers in all of F1 but the budgets have limited their ability to produce every concept they come up with, and the influx of cash might just be the ticket they've needed all these years to break on through. On top of that they are also running year-old under-powered Ferrari engines that are down on both power and tech so of all teams on the grid they're dealing with the greatest deficit and it was so even before the season started. I think Honda should stick with them and eventually buy the team outright and re-enter the sport as a true manufacturer again.

It's Sauber that pulled the plug on the Honda deal for next year allegedly and the year old Ferrari unit has more power currently than the Honda so it's actually McLaren with the biggest deficit.(So far).

But I still hope they stay. I've changed my mind again( ) and now I want McHonda to tough it out. I'll see how this next upgrade works out for them before I nail my colours to the post more firmly.

I read it was the other way around?

I think it was in the AMuS version I mentioned above where I read Sauber cancelled it but I can't find it now typically.

There's this from Vasseur that Kleefton mentioned...

Quote:

"The Honda issue is on the table and will be my first priority," Vasseur toldL'Equipe."It needs to be dealt with rapidly. From what I've heard from McLaren, it's a bit frightening

All seems a bit muddled right now but hopefully gets cleared up this weekend or when Vasseur starts next week.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I think Honda pulling out after spending so many millions of dollars is absurd. They should look to remain in F1 and the Sauber deal I think is the perfect partnership for them. It's well-know that Sauber employs some of the best engineers in all of F1 but the budgets have limited their ability to produce every concept they come up with, and the influx of cash might just be the ticket they've needed all these years to break on through. On top of that they are also running year-old under-powered Ferrari engines that are down on both power and tech so of all teams on the grid they're dealing with the greatest deficit and it was so even before the season started. I think Honda should stick with them and eventually buy the team outright and re-enter the sport as a true manufacturer again.

It's Sauber that pulled the plug on the Honda deal for next year allegedly and the year old Ferrari unit has more power currently than the Honda so it's actually McLaren with the biggest deficit.(So far).

But I still hope they stay. I've changed my mind again( ) and now I want McHonda to tough it out. I'll see how this next upgrade works out for them before I nail my colours to the post more firmly.

I read it was the other way around?

No it was Sauber that pulled the plug eventually.

Reports emerging from Germany on Tuesday had suggested that the Japanese manufacturer had cancelled the deal, in the wake of the departure of team principal Monisha Kaltenborn.

However, sources with good knowledge of the situation have indicated matters are slightly different, and that the contract between Sauber and Honda that was announced earlier this year was never officially completed and activated.

That has led to a situation where Sauber's owners have in recent days decided that they would now prefer to look elsewhere for a power unit for 2018, so the Honda deal will not happen.

I think Honda pulling out after spending so many millions of dollars is absurd. They should look to remain in F1 and the Sauber deal I think is the perfect partnership for them. It's well-know that Sauber employs some of the best engineers in all of F1 but the budgets have limited their ability to produce every concept they come up with, and the influx of cash might just be the ticket they've needed all these years to break on through. On top of that they are also running year-old under-powered Ferrari engines that are down on both power and tech so of all teams on the grid they're dealing with the greatest deficit and it was so even before the season started. I think Honda should stick with them and eventually buy the team outright and re-enter the sport as a true manufacturer again.

It's Sauber that pulled the plug on the Honda deal for next year allegedly and the year old Ferrari unit has more power currently than the Honda so it's actually McLaren with the biggest deficit.(So far).

But I still hope they stay. I've changed my mind again( ) and now I want McHonda to tough it out. I'll see how this next upgrade works out for them before I nail my colours to the post more firmly.

I read it was the other way around?

No it was Sauber that pulled the plug eventually.

Reports emerging from Germany on Tuesday had suggested that the Japanese manufacturer had cancelled the deal, in the wake of the departure of team principal Monisha Kaltenborn.

However, sources with good knowledge of the situation have indicated matters are slightly different, and that the contract between Sauber and Honda that was announced earlier this year was never officially completed and activated.

That has led to a situation where Sauber's owners have in recent days decided that they would now prefer to look elsewhere for a power unit for 2018, so the Honda deal will not happen.

From the article in the OP.

Smart move by Sauber. Probably why Kaltenborn is gone too. No team will succeed hitching themselves to the anchor that is the Honda engine.

Honda is improving ( again ) as shown this weekend and the last, Yes their reliability still isn't great but the speed differential is a lot closer than at the start of the season.I actually believe that right now the 2017 Honda PU is probably as fast than the 2016 Ferrari.

As much as Honda COULD bottle it again next year and not make more inroads, It's not like a year old Ferrari PU is exactly gonna be competitive.As demonstrated many times this year, Sauber is consistently slowest, So why not take a gamble with Honda?The only way is up.

Side note: I'd love to know what Ericcson's and Wehrlein's opinion is on this!

_________________Any and all opinions are my own, they do not reflect the opinions of the FIA, FOM, Teams, Drivers, PlanetF1, Phase of the Moon, Rotation of the Earth or Aliens.

Honda is improving ( again ) as shown this weekend and the last, Yes their reliability still isn't great but the speed differential is a lot closer than at the start of the season.I actually believe that right now the 2017 Honda PU is probably as fast than the 2016 Ferrari.

As much as Honda COULD bottle it again next year and not make more inroads, It's not like a year old Ferrari PU is exactly gonna be competitive.As demonstrated many times this year, Sauber is consistently slowest, So why not take a gamble with Honda?The only way is up.

Side note: I'd love to know what Ericcson's and Wehrlein's opinion is on this!

Well you could look at it like that, but since Mclaren have been faster than Sauber, with Mclaren having a significant power disadvantage even to that one year old Ferrari PU, it's not like Sauber's PU is what's making them uncompetitive. It's the chassis.

If you look at this from Baku, Ericsson set 15kph more to the speed trap than both Mclarens. http://en.f1i.com/news/271626-baku-spee ... stest.htmlNow obviously this is also down to the setup since Ericsson was actually 2nd fastest, but I guess it tells that Sauber are not that much power limited. Mclaren probably couldn't reach that speed even if they took their wings off.

_________________“Suddenly the steering wheel was in my hands. I tried to put it back on, but it was too late. I was just wondering where I was going to end up.”

Honda is improving ( again ) as shown this weekend and the last, Yes their reliability still isn't great but the speed differential is a lot closer than at the start of the season.I actually believe that right now the 2017 Honda PU is probably as fast than the 2016 Ferrari.

As much as Honda COULD bottle it again next year and not make more inroads, It's not like a year old Ferrari PU is exactly gonna be competitive.As demonstrated many times this year, Sauber is consistently slowest, So why not take a gamble with Honda?The only way is up.

Side note: I'd love to know what Ericcson's and Wehrlein's opinion is on this!

Well you could look at it like that, but since Mclaren have been faster than Sauber, with Mclaren having a significant power disadvantage even to that one year old Ferrari PU, it's not like Sauber's PU is what's making them uncompetitive. It's the chassis.

If you look at this from Baku, Ericsson set 15kph more to the speed trap than both Mclarens. http://en.f1i.com/news/271626-baku-spee ... stest.htmlNow obviously this is also down to the setup since Ericsson was actually 2nd fastest, but I guess it tells that Sauber are not that much power limited. Mclaren probably couldn't reach that speed even if they took their wings off.

I agree with everything you said.

In saying that, It presents an even better case to switch to Honda.If points are hard to come by anyway, Why not switch and get better manufacturer support plus ( most likely ) cheaper PU's so you can focus more money on building a more competitive chassis?

_________________Any and all opinions are my own, they do not reflect the opinions of the FIA, FOM, Teams, Drivers, PlanetF1, Phase of the Moon, Rotation of the Earth or Aliens.

I think Honda pulling out after spending so many millions of dollars is absurd. They should look to remain in F1 and the Sauber deal I think is the perfect partnership for them. It's well-know that Sauber employs some of the best engineers in all of F1 but the budgets have limited their ability to produce every concept they come up with, and the influx of cash might just be the ticket they've needed all these years to break on through. On top of that they are also running year-old under-powered Ferrari engines that are down on both power and tech so of all teams on the grid they're dealing with the greatest deficit and it was so even before the season started. I think Honda should stick with them and eventually buy the team outright and re-enter the sport as a true manufacturer again.

It's Sauber that pulled the plug on the Honda deal for next year allegedly and the year old Ferrari unit has more power currently than the Honda so it's actually McLaren with the biggest deficit.(So far).

But I still hope they stay. I've changed my mind again( ) and now I want McHonda to tough it out. I'll see how this next upgrade works out for them before I nail my colours to the post more firmly.

I read it was the other way around?

No it was Sauber that pulled the plug eventually.

Reports emerging from Germany on Tuesday had suggested that the Japanese manufacturer had cancelled the deal, in the wake of the departure of team principal Monisha Kaltenborn.

However, sources with good knowledge of the situation have indicated matters are slightly different, and that the contract between Sauber and Honda that was announced earlier this year was never officially completed and activated.

That has led to a situation where Sauber's owners have in recent days decided that they would now prefer to look elsewhere for a power unit for 2018, so the Honda deal will not happen.

From the article in the OP.

Smart move by Sauber. Probably why Kaltenborn is gone too. No team will succeed hitching themselves to the anchor that is the Honda engine.

Don't agree. If a works deal was possible this is a terrible move by Sauber

It's Sauber that pulled the plug on the Honda deal for next year allegedly and the year old Ferrari unit has more power currently than the Honda so it's actually McLaren with the biggest deficit.(So far).

But I still hope they stay. I've changed my mind again( ) and now I want McHonda to tough it out. I'll see how this next upgrade works out for them before I nail my colours to the post more firmly.

I read it was the other way around?

No it was Sauber that pulled the plug eventually.

Reports emerging from Germany on Tuesday had suggested that the Japanese manufacturer had cancelled the deal, in the wake of the departure of team principal Monisha Kaltenborn.

However, sources with good knowledge of the situation have indicated matters are slightly different, and that the contract between Sauber and Honda that was announced earlier this year was never officially completed and activated.

That has led to a situation where Sauber's owners have in recent days decided that they would now prefer to look elsewhere for a power unit for 2018, so the Honda deal will not happen.

From the article in the OP.

Smart move by Sauber. Probably why Kaltenborn is gone too. No team will succeed hitching themselves to the anchor that is the Honda engine.

Don't agree. If a works deal was possible this is a terrible move by Sauber

I'd have to agree that if a works deal was possible it would be manna from heaven for Sauber. After all, they can hardly be worried about being less competitive than they already are. Which leads me to conclude that a full works package wasn't on the table

Reports emerging from Germany on Tuesday had suggested that the Japanese manufacturer had cancelled the deal, in the wake of the departure of team principal Monisha Kaltenborn.

However, sources with good knowledge of the situation have indicated matters are slightly different, and that the contract between Sauber and Honda that was announced earlier this year was never officially completed and activated.

That has led to a situation where Sauber's owners have in recent days decided that they would now prefer to look elsewhere for a power unit for 2018, so the Honda deal will not happen.

From the article in the OP.

Smart move by Sauber. Probably why Kaltenborn is gone too. No team will succeed hitching themselves to the anchor that is the Honda engine.

Don't agree. If a works deal was possible this is a terrible move by Sauber

I'd have to agree that if a works deal was possible it would be manna from heaven for Sauber. After all, they can hardly be worried about being less competitive than they already are. Which leads me to conclude that a full works package wasn't on the table

It has to be the case. Honda must have a stance where, even if McLaren end their relationship, Sauber will still have to pay for their PUs and wouldn't get any financial backing

Do you reckon Honda being so quick to void the deal, suggests they'd rather sauber found another supplier so they can shut this project down once McLaren announce their new supplier?

Its a shame, and quite strange just how difficult they've found this engine... they're not exactly amatures when it comes to this.

I don't think so, but- If Mclaren swap engines, and Sauber use the Honda, it is a current engine and testing regs apply etc. If Mclaren dump Honda, and the engine is not represented, they can test as much as they like.

I suppose it depends on if they think they will learn more racing or with free development.

Reports emerging from Germany on Tuesday had suggested that the Japanese manufacturer had cancelled the deal, in the wake of the departure of team principal Monisha Kaltenborn.

However, sources with good knowledge of the situation have indicated matters are slightly different, and that the contract between Sauber and Honda that was announced earlier this year was never officially completed and activated.

That has led to a situation where Sauber's owners have in recent days decided that they would now prefer to look elsewhere for a power unit for 2018, so the Honda deal will not happen.

From the article in the OP.

Smart move by Sauber. Probably why Kaltenborn is gone too. No team will succeed hitching themselves to the anchor that is the Honda engine.

Don't agree. If a works deal was possible this is a terrible move by Sauber

I'd have to agree that if a works deal was possible it would be manna from heaven for Sauber. After all, they can hardly be worried about being less competitive than they already are. Which leads me to conclude that a full works package wasn't on the table

Of course Sauber could be less competitive than they are now. They could DNF or DNS 10 times more than they are with Ferrari engines.

People act like it's a law of science that Honda HAS to get better. Utter rubbish. Honda can remain as feckless as they are now. They can also get worse. There have been many many engine builders who have never once won a race. This version of Honda could easily be a complete disaster. In fact, they are and now in their 3rd year (third!!) of trying, they have been utterly awful.

Reports emerging from Germany on Tuesday had suggested that the Japanese manufacturer had cancelled the deal, in the wake of the departure of team principal Monisha Kaltenborn.

However, sources with good knowledge of the situation have indicated matters are slightly different, and that the contract between Sauber and Honda that was announced earlier this year was never officially completed and activated.

That has led to a situation where Sauber's owners have in recent days decided that they would now prefer to look elsewhere for a power unit for 2018, so the Honda deal will not happen.

From the article in the OP.

Smart move by Sauber. Probably why Kaltenborn is gone too. No team will succeed hitching themselves to the anchor that is the Honda engine.

Don't agree. If a works deal was possible this is a terrible move by Sauber

I'd have to agree that if a works deal was possible it would be manna from heaven for Sauber. After all, they can hardly be worried about being less competitive than they already are. Which leads me to conclude that a full works package wasn't on the table

Of course Sauber could be less competitive than they are now. They could DNF or DNS 10 times more than they are with Ferrari engines.

People act like it's a law of science that Honda HAS to get better. Utter rubbish. Honda can remain as feckless as they are now. They can also get worse. There have been many many engine builders who have never once won a race. This version of Honda could easily be a complete disaster. In fact, they are and now in their 3rd year (third!!) of trying, they have been utterly awful.

I think it is a great move that Sauber has dropped Honda.

I said they can hardly be worried about being less competitive. They're only off the bottom due to a single race result. Sure, Honda can get worse. But it's equally true that Sauber cannot get better with year old engines: that gives them a glass ceiling they can't break through, no matter how good the rest of their package is. So unless they can find the money to stump up for current PUs, they're not going to find themselves climbing the table any time soon.

With Honda, OTOH, they have a chance to improve. Sure, it's not guaranteed, but if we're talking about a possible works deal then the financial advantages that brings to Sauber are massive. So they have a choice between definitely staying at the bottom, or potentially rising in the rankings. And if it goes wrong, their points position won't change much, so they'd be in the same position they were with year old Ferrari engines, but their bank balance, and therefore future, will be much healthier.

That's all on the premise that they "inherit" the works deal from McLaren, of course

Yeah, Sauber cant be any worse than they already are. Not even with Honda engines. McLaren will end up overtaking them comfortably before the season ends.

The worst of Honda is still better than Sauber with 1 year old Ferrari engine. Honda has been unreliable and slow, but they are still pushing the development. ANd even unreliable current honda will be faster than last years engine from anyone.

A frozen engine from last year with current non token restrictive development is as good as dead engine.

Unless Sauber can get next years engine from Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault, it will be stupid to give up on Honda engine.

Sauber have been having trouble just staying open. A free engine could make the difference of making the grid next year or not, and a few million to help out would mean luxury for them. Take it with both hands and think about it later. They will still be there later to think for a start.

It seems Honda now have the right concept to work with that can still be developed over this season, as well as 2018, and he even suggested possibly 2019.. This doesn't sound like the talk of someone about to leave...

It seems Honda now have the right concept to work with that can still be developed over this season, as well as 2018, and he even suggested possibly 2019.. This doesn't sound like the talk of someone about to leave...

That was indeed a great read.

Their target is Mercedes and Ferrari but they still have yet to clear Renault, and Ferrari from last year. I don't know. I like the fact they are going to use the same concept next year. More than likely that will help with the reliability issues, but I will be shocked if they have a power unit that matches or comes close to the Merc. Anyway, sounds like they will power both Sauber and Mclaren next year. Should be interesting.

It seems Honda now have the right concept to work with that can still be developed over this season, as well as 2018, and he even suggested possibly 2019.. This doesn't sound like the talk of someone about to leave...

That was indeed a great read.

Their target is Mercedes and Ferrari but they still have yet to clear Renault, and Ferrari from last year. I don't know. I like the fact they are going to use the same concept next year. More than likely that will help with the reliability issues, but I will be shocked if they have a power unit that matches or comes close to the Merc. Anyway, sounds like they will power both Sauber and Mclaren next year. Should be interesting.

Yep. After reading that article, it doesnt appear that Honda is giving up. Hopefully McLaren will and will throw them out of F1, unless Sauber picks them up.

Honda talks a good game. We've heard all this positive talk year after year with absolutely nothing to show for it. Talk is cheap. Performance is what matters.

Yep. After reading that article, it doesnt appear that Honda is giving up. Hopefully McLaren will and will throw them out of F1, unless Sauber picks them up.

Honda talks a good game. We've heard all this positive talk year after year with absolutely nothing to show for it. Talk is cheap. Performance is what matters.

Well, after half a season of unrestricted development (referring to the tokens being dropped) their performance enables McLaren to be competitive in the midfield. Not good enough yet? Sure. Definite signs of improvement? You bet.

I feel like we were having those discussions last year. And I was optimistic for 2017. Question is how can anyone be optimistic about 2018 after what we witnessed a year ago?

It's definitely hard to be confident of anything with Honda but there are more promising things going for them this year as opposed to last.

1. Not starting an entirely new concept.2. Not starting an entirely new combustion concept.3. They've allegedly got Illien and others help.

I think those three alone can give reason to be a bit more confident they won't start next year in this kind of mess but you wouldn't want to put your house on it.

Evolution is a lot less riskier than revolution kind of thing.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I wonder how the McLaren Honda of today would have done in Oz this year?Probably top ten, if it finished?

Easy yeah, Alonso nearly did it as it was.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I feel like we were having those discussions last year. And I was optimistic for 2017. Question is how can anyone be optimistic about 2018 after what we witnessed a year ago?

Because they now have a concept they can develop, unlike the old one. Due to this changes made off season will be evolution not revolution and be more predictable, which should allow them to continue to close the gap to the others...

Apparently, Honda is ready for the first time to take on foreign aid: Swiss motorsport Mario Ilien has hired as a "consultant" at McLaren. Not to build their own engine there - but to provide input. Just as he got some things going on at Renault.

I feel like we were having those discussions last year. And I was optimistic for 2017. Question is how can anyone be optimistic about 2018 after what we witnessed a year ago?

It's definitely hard to be confident of anything with Honda but there are more promising things going for them this year as opposed to last.

1. Not starting an entirely new concept.2. Not starting an entirely new combustion concept.3. They've allegedly got Illien and others help.

I think those three alone can give reason to be a bit more confident they won't start next year in this kind of mess but you wouldn't want to put your house on it.

Evolution is a lot less riskier than revolution kind of thing.

There is no evidence their current concept isnt flawed. I mean they are still struggling to have both cars finish a grand prix. Yes there has been progress but it hasnt been nearly enough, especially on the reliability front. Mclaren needs to evaluate the partnership carefully. I myself think its too soon to decide and keep honda for next year. We need to see more from them.

I feel like we were having those discussions last year. And I was optimistic for 2017. Question is how can anyone be optimistic about 2018 after what we witnessed a year ago?

It's definitely hard to be confident of anything with Honda but there are more promising things going for them this year as opposed to last.

1. Not starting an entirely new concept.2. Not starting an entirely new combustion concept.3. They've allegedly got Illien and others help.

I think those three alone can give reason to be a bit more confident they won't start next year in this kind of mess but you wouldn't want to put your house on it.

Evolution is a lot less riskier than revolution kind of thing.

There is no evidence their current concept isnt flawed. I mean they are still struggling to have both cars finish a grand prix. Yes there has been progress but it hasnt been nearly enough, especially on the reliability front. Mclaren needs to evaluate the partnership carefully. I myself think its too soon to decide and keep honda for next year. We need to see more from them.

The same way there's no evidence that the other manufacturers concepts aren't coming to the end of their development cycle forcing them to change it...

Apparently, Honda is ready for the first time to take on foreign aid: Swiss motorsport Mario Ilien has hired as a "consultant" at McLaren. Not to build their own engine there - but to provide input. Just as he got some things going on at Renault.

But there is an ongoing project that will reschedule the McLaren-Honda association's participation in the championship. And it should not take long to generate the first dividends. Honda has since the Bahrain GP in April with the help of a very experienced technician to improve its driving unit, the Swiss Mario Illien, which helped the French in 2015 to produce a much more powerful drive Efficient last year, as shown by RBR's two victories in the season in Spain and Malaysia.

In a conversation with Sheikh Muhamed al Khalifa at the Sakhir Circuit in the days of the Bahrain Grand Prix, GloboEsporte.com heard: "We are going to move forward, definitely. It will not be immediate, but it will not be long. I just can not go forward what was done to be so safe. " Al Khalifa, an economist, is the representative of Bahrain's royal family in the McLaren group. The Muntalakat Barénita investment group owns 50% of the McLaren Group, to which the F1 team belongs.A McLaren source recently confirmed to GloboEsporte.com that it's about Mario Illien's involvement in the Honda project.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I feel like we were having those discussions last year. And I was optimistic for 2017. Question is how can anyone be optimistic about 2018 after what we witnessed a year ago?

It's definitely hard to be confident of anything with Honda but there are more promising things going for them this year as opposed to last.

1. Not starting an entirely new concept.2. Not starting an entirely new combustion concept.3. They've allegedly got Illien and others help.

I think those three alone can give reason to be a bit more confident they won't start next year in this kind of mess but you wouldn't want to put your house on it.

Evolution is a lot less riskier than revolution kind of thing.

There is no evidence their current concept isnt flawed. I mean they are still struggling to have both cars finish a grand prix. Yes there has been progress but it hasnt been nearly enough, especially on the reliability front. Mclaren needs to evaluate the partnership carefully. I myself think its too soon to decide and keep honda for next year. We need to see more from them.

The current concept in general is a Mercedes copy so it's pretty sound. Can't say the combustion concept is the same for sure of course but recent articles* have indicated they're doing the same thing now at least.

Reliability is a big concern but technically they are quite small issues but with big consequences like the oil tank baffles and mgu-h bearings but Honda are having to run in these higher modes with more strain on everything just to keep the gap to 70bhp, If you remember some Mercedes issues in 2014 with this concept and they just avoided the highest modes until they were fixed but Honda can't so they suffer way more failures.

It really is just time as boring and unhelpful an answer as that is but unfortunately for them no-ones standing still yet so it looks like they never make progress. At Silverstone it was said Ferrari have gained 50bhp since the start of the year. If that's true and Honda are closer now than they were at the start of the year then it shows just how much Honda have to find to begin to make a dent.

* From the pitpass article and the original Honda release...

Quote:

"So the engine weight, centre of gravity and the combustion concept is all going in the same direction as the other three engine manufacturers".

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

andretti racing team is looking like they will switch to chevy power for next year. indications are that puts sato and rossi out at andretti. honda love rossi per robin miller. i wonder if they provide engines for sauber, rossi will end up at sauber?