Oh good, cause getting rid of illegals will obviously solve all of Arizona's problems, then the US will follow suit, and then we can all be happy again! Everything is finally ok!posted by Huck500 at 8:48 PM on March 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

Why do I have the feeling that the resources these xenophobic dipshits apply towards deporting n illegal immigrants could provide full services and fair opportunities for 2n illegal immigrants?

With the added bonus of, you know, not having to look a xenophobic dipshit in the mirror every day.posted by Riki tiki at 8:53 PM on March 30, 2010 [7 favorites]

With McCain facing a primary challenge from the right - and leading by a sufficiently small margin that he has to endure the humiliation of asking Sarah Palin to campaign for him - I expect him to make sympathetic noises about this.

Utah is upset only because Arizona beat them to it. This year we outlawed all forms of online renewal of state issued documents. Too bad they didn't hire any people to staff the DMV when they did so, resulting in hours long lines and a massive expense to the state and anger from the populace. And do you think any of these states will go after the real problem of businesses hiring undocumented laborers? No! Let's go after their children instead. Keep it classy Arizona mountain west.posted by msbutah at 9:18 PM on March 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

Hey, let's use kids as the pawns in our game of xenophobic chess! Either their parents will keep them at home so they'll be deprived of school, or their parents will send them and hopefully we'll get Plyler overturned and we can make the kids feel like they fucked over hundreds of thousands of people, including their families!

From Plyler:Even if the State found it expedient to control the conduct of adults by acting against their children, legislation directing the onus of a parent's misconduct against his children does not comport with fundamental conceptions of justice....Illiteracy is an enduring disability. The inability to read and write will handicap the individual deprived of a basic education each and every day of his life. The inestimable toll of that deprivation on the social, economic, intellectual, and psychological well-being of the individual, and the obstacle it poses to individual achievement, make it most difficult to reconcile the cost or the principle of a status-based denial of basic education with the framework of equality embodied in the Equal Protection Clause....Section 21.031 imposes a lifetime hardship on a discrete class of children not accountable for their disabling status. The stigma of illiteracy will mark them for the rest of their lives. By denying these children a basic education, we deny them the ability to live within the structure of our civic institutions, and foreclose any realistic possibility that they will contribute in even the smallest way to the progress of our Nation.

I'll be so glad to move out of this fucking state. It is so backward, its Republican overlords so fucking stupid, short-sighted, bitter, and mean-spirited... and I moved here from TEXAS!posted by Saxon Kane at 10:19 PM on March 30, 2010 [3 favorites]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, democracy simply doesn't work.posted by Talez at 10:19 PM on March 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

People want to be tribal. And with various disasters looming, maybe they'll get their way in the end.posted by five fresh fish at 10:23 PM on March 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

I like how they first disadvantage these kids, then when the kids grow up, they can complain about how the minorities are so undereducated and "dumb", which obliges them to take the worst jobs at the worst pay, and then everybody can complain how the "minorities don't want to better themselves" and on and on and on in an endless circle. The circle of hate. I was planing on spending some time in Arizona this year, as there are some beautiful desert areas there, but fuck that, I'm not spending dime one on a state that passes laws like this. I wish people would boycott them and make them pay for such bigotry... then again, I'm sure they don't care. Ugh. How and why is it that things are getting worse and not better with time? It's 2010, people! Why is stuff like this happening?! Sick.posted by VikingSword at 10:28 PM on March 30, 2010 [7 favorites]

What is up with the "stay classy?" Seems like I'm seeing it all the time lately.posted by brundlefly at 10:45 PM on March 30, 2010

I used to be the poster child of what the GOP wants. A 'dark' immigrant who supported moving to the US legally and rejecting those who broke immigration laws to get here. Then I taught in several public schools in Arizona for the last few years, working with large number of Hispanic students, many of which are here 'illegally'. What I learned completely changed me. These students already live in fear. They fear they'll get pulled over and deported on a daily basis on their way to school or to a job because they cannot get a driver's license in the state. Or worse, they would tell me that they need to get a job to help their family makes ends meet but cannot figure out how to deal with the new laws requiring proof of citizenship for employment. Some couldn't even get a simple job as being referees to the local youth soccer leagues because of the need for a valid social security number. Then the Seniors would come to me and tell me of their fears of not being able to go to college because they found out that they would be forced to pay out of state or even out of country tuition. These type of laws make me both extremely sad and angry because all they do is create a situations where these kids, most of whom have lived in the US a majority of their lives into 2nd class citizens. It leads to resentment and it only makes them cling to the their Mexican heritage even more. Then the same GOP dimwits and their supporters who pass these type of laws wonder why these "illegals' can't support the country that they now live in.posted by dealing away at 10:48 PM on March 30, 2010 [27 favorites]

The only thing I like about that bill is it was short and was easy to understand and not having a lot of whereas and whatnots like a lot of legislation I've read. I hate what the bill does. Let's make America more divisive. Will this be like when ICE does immigration raids and only asks the latino kids for proof of citizenship? Will Whitey McWhiteson and Jesus Gutierrez be treated equally if their parents can't find their birth certificates. Even if Whitey might be border jumping Canuck, and Jesus' family has been living in Arizona since it was part of New Spain? I doubt it.

I was born in Arizona. What an embarrassment.

If I were an undocumented immigrant I would GTFO of AZ. It is too hot in the summer and it is crawling with rednecks that hate them. Even if the xenophobic's wet dream came true and all the immigrants were gone, the state would still be broke and getting broker. It was still be racing to the bottom in terms of its education. And it would still have all the problems it has today. It would probably have more. Are the senior citizens living in Yuma going to pick the lettuce when the immigrants are gone?posted by birdherder at 1:52 AM on March 31, 2010 [1 favorite]

What is up with the "stay classy?" Seems like I'm seeing it all the time lately.

"Stay classy, San Diego" was Ron Burgundy's newscast sign off in the movie Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy. Except when Veronica Corningstone changed his teleprompter and he ended up saying, "fuck you, San Diego."

Since then any time San Diego (or any city/state/country/planet/solar system) does something that is NOT classy, people will comment in web forums: Stay classy, [place].posted by birdherder at 2:05 AM on March 31, 2010

Are the senior citizens living in Yuma going to pick the lettuce when the immigrants are gone?

That's exactly the point. These laws aren't meant to get rid of immigrants. They're meant to make them afraid. They're meant to appeal to, and reinforce racism against immigrants. They're meant to keep them from getting an education. By keeping them firmly "illegal" and afraid, Arizona is able to ensure that undocumented migrants will take whatever job they can find, and at whatever wage is offered.

The politicians who want to build walls, increase border security, and support bills such as the one mentioned in this post are very, very aware of how dependent the US economy is on this cheap labour, and they are doing what they need to, in order to make sure that that labour stays cheap. The situation that they are trying to creat and maintain is this: illegal immigrants come to the country, work for nothing, remain separate from the rest of the population, and recieve no education. If they go to school, they will get educated, become aware of their situation, maybe find other people who will become sympathetic to their situation, become aware of what right they may actually have and what power they could really excercise.posted by molecicco at 2:50 AM on March 31, 2010 [22 favorites]

Russell Pearce and his cohorts do this kind of thing every year. He's always introducing new anti-illegal immigrant legislation - every damned year. The voters in his district just eat this kind of thing up, and he gets re-elected easily every two years. With the Republican advantage in Maricopa County (if you control Maricopa, you control the state) he has plenty of like-minded colleagues in the state legislature. It's just the latest of an endless string of examples of making a political career off of minorities. They label anyone who opposes such a proposition as "open-border advocates," "illegal immigrant symphathizers" and much more.

Meanwhile, the state continues its spiral into financial ruin. Education has been gutted and they want to cut even more. (While keeping tens of millions in tax credits for parents who send kids to private schools, of course.) The state parks are closing and the highway rest areas are closed. The state is closing juvenile corrections to save money. The highway department had to sell vehicles to come up with enough money to run the snowplows during a recent storm. There's more and more, and the budget deficit is even bigger for next year. But a bunch of the guys at the Capitol have sworn allegiance to Grover Norquist and his no-tax pledge and they staunchly refuse to raise taxes.

I'm not naive enough to think that illegal immigration isn't a problem. There has been a lot of violence and misery associated with the flood of people coming across the border, and when you have hundreds of thousands crossing your deserts every year, it's not a good thing. There's also the myriad of evil problems that human smugglers bring inti the equation. But these are human beings, not the animals that they are regarded as by xenophobes such as Russell Pearce. If you could make more in an hour illegally in the US than you could in a day in Mexico, you'd jump the fence too. Let's see, $40 a week working the factories, or $60 a day building houses... It's not a tough choice. Now they are trying to make it mandatory that police verify immigration status on those they believe may be here illegally. (Translation - if you're not Caucasian, that means you'd better produce proof of citizenship.) Police have already said that this will allow crime to flourish, especially with the predators that prey on poorer neighborhoods, since people are going to equate the police with deportation and not talk to the cops. They've also passed a law that allows the state to revoke the business license of any business with a single illegal immigrant on payroll, and they want to give attorney generals (specifically Andrew Thomas) authority to poke around personnel files to try to push these prosecutions. They will continue passing these laws for as long as they are in power.

This whole episode shows how people get the government they deserve. The current crop of legislators have shown that they clearly can't govern. Yet they coninue to stomp on the backs of immigrants, and it appeals to enough people that they get re-elected.posted by azpenguin at 3:58 AM on March 31, 2010 [7 favorites]

"The situation that they are trying to creat and maintain is this: illegal immigrants come to the country, work for nothing, remain separate from the rest of the population, and recieve no education..."

So no one else is going to call this out? Laws are not intended to make people fearful. Laws are an agreement we come to on how to live together.posted by DU at 5:31 AM on March 31, 2010 [1 favorite]

The question of how to deal with illegal immigration is extremely complicated-- especially in an open Democracy where we refuse to make it mandatory to carry ID papers. Illegal immigrants are not visibly different for US citizens or legal immigrants, so to begin with there is the very thorny problem of how to distinguish them. Next, once you have singled them out, what do you do with them? There have been a couple of cases here in NC where a mother of a newborn was rounded up by immigration while at work-- effectually separating mother and child. Sometimes you have a case of naturalized child, born on US soil, parents whose parents are here illegally-- what is the best way to handle that?

While restaurant, agriculture and construction businesses benefit from this very cheap source of labor, the state is left holding the bag for certain expenses such as education. One of the big problems of this shadow community is the lack of insurance. Hospitals in the major cities near the border have long struggled with absorbing the cost of treating them. Also, legislation can make acquiring a driver's license and car insurance difficult, which means you are left with people driving around without them.

So essentially we have a huge gray area which needs to be dealt with sensitively. It is easy to exploit the fears of citizens if you deal in a black and white, authoritarian world. Us good, them bad. The only way to counteract this is to stress the human side to the story-- illegal immigrants want to live the American dream as much-- if not more-- than anyone else. They are hard workers who have sacrificed a great deal to be here and they live with privations most Americans never imagine.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:16 AM on March 31, 2010 [1 favorite]

That's too close to slavery for my liking

Mine as well.

Yep, and look how well that worked out for the other group of ersatz "illegal immigrants" to this country who were enslaved. There's arguably still a significant segment of the descendants of that population which considers education, books, school, etc. as things to be avoided because of their expectation of failure.

This whole episode shows how people get the government they deserve.
And continually insist on being on the wrong side of history.posted by fuse theorem at 6:25 AM on March 31, 2010

I lived in Arizona for twenty years. Ninety percent of the population is racist white trash who want an Applebee's on every corner and a 90 minute commute for every job. Undocumented immigrants will stand on the corner in 120 degree heat waiting around to do work on white people's homes. They cook white people's food, they clean white people's messes, and conveniently, they are the scapegoat for white people whenever anything goes wrong, and even when it doesn't.

I dream a dream of the day when every Mexican person leaves Arizona, when every Native leaves Arizona, when everyone who isn't white-white-white-white leaves Arizona. That place would fall into utter fucking chaos in one fucking day. WHERES MY DINNER WHERES MY LAUNDRY MY GRASS IS TOO HIGH MY CAR DOESNT WORK THE ROADS ARE BUSTED MY BUILDING COLLAPSED WE'RE ALL STARVING NOW BECAUSE THOSE MEXICANS LEFT

Sorry for my clunky blather above, but this is something I am very conflicted about.

My main point is: We need an effective way to assimilate them and bring them out of the darkness. The way things are now, any Politician can use them as a stepping stone to power.

My ex-husband is a chef who has run the kitchens of a couple of restaurants. In the past, he has taken busboys and dishwashers under his wing, taught them English and cooking skills. But then what do they do? They can sometimes get jobs as line cooks, but they will always be vulnerable, they will always be underpaid and in danger of losing everything. The irony is my ex-husband himself was (before marrying me) an illegal immigrant, but he is Japanese.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:40 AM on March 31, 2010

While restaurant, agriculture and construction businesses benefit from this very cheap source of labor, the state is left holding the bag for certain expenses such as education. One of the big problems of this shadow community is the lack of insurance. Hospitals in the major cities near the border have long struggled with absorbing the cost of treating them.

The wealth that "illegals" provide to the US economy far, far, far exceeds the costs of services that they use. If you added it up, the taxes on profits from industries that employ illegal immigrants would, I have no doubt, more than cover the cost of schooling, hospital care, police and fire services used by those immigrants.posted by molecicco at 6:43 AM on March 31, 2010 [6 favorites]

If you added it up, the taxes on profits from industries that employ illegal immigrants would, I have no doubt, more than cover the cost of schooling, hospital care, police and fire services used by those immigrants.

- Create laws that seriously screw over $Group_of_People so that angry white guys can have peace of mind/more money/sense of superiority/whatev.
- Create climate of hate/fear/loathing of $Group_of_People so most people look the other way when laws that directly injure them are passed.
- Point & smirk & hurl vitriol at $Group_of_People when they are relegated to third class citizenship because if they worked hard and wanted to do things the "right" way, they could have overcome the obstacle set in place by the laws that were made to screw them over.
- repeat.posted by contessa at 7:50 AM on March 31, 2010

Optimus Chyme: "33While restaurant, agriculture and construction businesses benefit from this very cheap source of labor, the state is left holding the bag for certain expenses such as education.

I'm fully aware that the illegals pay into Soc. Security but receive no benefits. However, the way things are set up now, we compartmentalize our state, county, and city budgets. How does the pay into SS help the counties paying the extra medical expenses? Or the cities and counties pay for extra teachers and books? I fully agree that we are essentially giving the business community a free ride but try raising their taxes-- the Republicans would go nuts.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:01 AM on March 31, 2010

"The laws are intended to make people fearful," Pearce said.

>So no one else is going to call this out? Laws are not intended to make people fearful. Laws are an agreement we come to on how to live together.

Just wanted to repeat for 1000x emphasis. This change in perspective on what laws are and are for, as well as what police are and are for, has been very troubling to see develop over the past 15 years or so. Many legislators now do view the law as something to scare and intimidate various groups of people, which I can only guess is a manifestation of their religious worldview, where you're supposed to live in fear of eternal punishment all the time anyway.

Further, the conception of police and policing these days is horrifying, too--police are not supposed to be out there, watching all the time and waiting to pounce as soon as we do something wrong, and members of the citizenry (in this case, teachers) are not supposed to be enlisted as informants. The police are officers of the court, there to intervene when things go wrong, when people choose to act poorly, to enforce laws when it is clear they are being broken. They are not supposed to park a half-million-dollar drunk-driving-mobile-policing mega-vehicle on a downtown street corner every weekend and herd college students right from the sidewalks inside for coerced sobriety tests, or have random checkpoints or speed cameras or regularly conduct no-knock, armed SWAT raids on private homes using specious warrants granted by hearsay evidence, etc.

I always loved, growing up, that the more I learned about world history, the more I realized how lucky I was to be in a truly free country. The past decade or so has really changed my attitude about that, to the point where this pretty squeaky-clean and law-abiding citizen is very wary of the judicial system and extremely cautious around any police personnel, no matter what I'm doing. I like to hope that my attitude is more a culture of fear response, and not really warranted, but I see evidence all the time that it is not.posted by LooseFilter at 8:06 AM on March 31, 2010 [2 favorites]

However, the way things are set up now, we compartmentalize our state, county, and city budgets. How does the pay into SS help the counties paying the extra medical expenses? Or the cities and counties pay for extra teachers and books?

Yeah the collection of the taxes that support regular daily life is pretty compartmentalized, but it's nearly impossible to be a breathing human being and not be paying them in one form or another. For example, property taxes. Even if you rent, the cost to the owner of the dwelling (which would include the property taxes on it) is factored into the cost of the rental. So a renter is, in effect, paying those taxes, even if it's not in their name. Or gas taxes -- which fund building or improving roads. You fill up your tank, you pay them. The guy at the Texaco station doesn't give a damn about your immigration status. Sales taxes - same thing again. And if an employer is issuing a paycheck and deducting FICA, they sure as hell are deducting federal withholding as well. The difference is, if you're here illegally and working, you probably aren't filing a tax return and getting a refund if you deserve one.

What I find so funny is all the hoo-hah moaning and weeping on the side of the right about the deleterious burden of taxing and losing freedoms and all that dont-tread-on-me BS, is that they conveniently disregard that the illegal immigrants they hate so much and who they claim are such a drain on society, are kicking in their fair bit and probably more than they are on the hook for.posted by contessa at 8:26 AM on March 31, 2010 [1 favorite]

Here's the fucked up part of the law: they can't turn any potential students away. By law. This law really is only about fear-mongering, bureaucracy, and politics. More paperwork, scared (non) citizens, and hopes of appeasing some votes.

Others have already said it in this thread, much in the US is subsidized by underpaid illegal immigrants. We can accept this fact and improve their lives, or make them live in more fear.posted by filthy light thief at 8:33 AM on March 31, 2010

With McCain facing a primary challenge from the right - and leading by a sufficiently small margin that he has to endure the humiliation of asking Sarah Palin to campaign for him

I've lived here for 36 of my 37 years. Since then, I've visited places with far less diversity than we have here, and I can't help but think that it's gotta be boring to live in a place that's mostly monocultural. Don't get me wrong, the "racist white trash" has a significant portion of the population, especially in the East Valley and some of the outlying areas. But living in Tucson, we have every type here - the hippies, the uptight military retirees, the guns-and-NASCAR rednecks, Mexicans both legal and illegal, and much, much more. I grew up in a poor and heavily Mexican neighborhood; in fact, the only other non-Mexican family on our half-mile long street was made up of recent Polish immigrants. I felt safe there and never though twice about walking around at night. Children do a lot of their growing up in the homes of their friends, and I did a lot of my growing up in Mexican homes. (Just typing this, I can smell the Saturday morning menudo at Shorty's house.) Thanks to this, I deeply love Mexican culture and the family structures. It's also why this kind of racist lawmaking really not only ticks me off, but it breaks my heart too. Most of these people that the law targets are good people who just wanted a better life for them and their children. These laws that Pearce and co. have been pushing and passing go a step further, though, in that they indirectly codify racism. I don't get hassled by the Border Patrol and I get waved through their checkpoints. I don't have to worry about police asking my immigration status. All of this is because I'm white and speak non-accented English. My friends, however, have been subject to such intrusions by BP because they aren't white. They get pulled over for no reason other than to check that they're really legal. In the case of these laws, "reasonable cause" means being a Mexican who speaks poor or no English.

When Pearce says that these laws are intended to make people fearful, it's clear to me that he is lacking basic humanity and an understanding of what it is like to live in fear.posted by azpenguin at 9:37 AM on March 31, 2010 [4 favorites]

During the debate on health care, the Democrats and Republicans both agreed that the bill would not allow any money to be used for health care for illegal immigrants. Which is just ridiculous and short-sighted. Undocumented workers and their families get sick, they have babies, their children need to be vaccinated just like everybody else. They are also some of the poorest people in America because they make minimum wage so like other poor, uninsured people, they often rely on the ER for the medical needs.

What we are doing is engaging in a terrible game of chicken: how unpleasant can we make life for them here before they give up and go home or keep from crossing the border in the first place? The answer is pretty damn unpleasant because they are desperate people.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:43 AM on March 31, 2010 [2 favorites]

I said this comment in another thread somewhere, but basically "Mexican is the new black."

I was talking to my mom about HUD housing for my folks and then asked if my dad (a bit of a racist against black people (grew up in segregated Oklahoma) - though not vitriolic about it, thankfully) would feel comfortable living around black people (I know I shouldn't even stereotype public housing like that), and she said "Oh, it's not black people -- it'll be the Mexicans".

And, when discussing some medicare help she needs I bit my tongue as she talked about the "Mexicans" using those resources.

*sigh*

Oh, and THEN I remember my sister a few years ago in a car ride saying she'd never move to California, cuz she was afraid "the Mexicans" would jump through her window at night... blah blah.

Yeah. But getting out of AZ was quite possibly the smartest political move she has ever made. She bailed at exactly the right instant, leaving a Republican governor and a Republican legislature holding the bag full of crap. The infighting between the Republicans must have made her giggle heartily on repeated occasions since her departure. Nevertheless, we'll still be stuck with them after the next election. So stupid.posted by Barry B. Palindromer at 12:09 PM on March 31, 2010

Why in gods names is there so much hate? In a country that has had peace and prosperity for a couple generations, one would think that people wouldn't get their shit tied up in knots over easy things like this.posted by five fresh fish at 12:54 PM on March 31, 2010

Or maybe it's not so much hate as it is an incapacitating fear of … well, at this point, I'd have to say it's fear of everything.posted by five fresh fish at 12:55 PM on March 31, 2010

Ninety percent of the population is racist white trash...

Well, outside of Phoenix* and Tucson and maybe Flag that's pretty accurate. But you get out in Mohave** county where guys like Tim McVeigh and his buddies lived and it pretty damn accurate. The A.M. radio shows out there make Glenn Beck seem like a rational inclusive guy. The people out in the sticks scare the shit out of me.

Optimus shares my dream for the undocumented immigrants to leave Arizona, but what I think will probably happen first is the latino -- legal citizens and voters -- population will continue to grow and they (plus rational people of any ethnicity) will eventually vote the rednecks out.

Oh, and feliz Cesar Chavez Day! Oh, right, that's not a holiday in Arizona...yet. I lived in AZ when whathisnuts vetoed MLK day.

*the fact that Maricopa County has Sheriff Joe as their elected sheriff in the 21st century is shameful but also shows that you get the scared olds and the redneck desert rats together and they're still powerful.

**It is funny how the county in Arizona is the Americanized spelling of Mojave.posted by birdherder at 1:21 PM on March 31, 2010

Why in gods names is there so much hate? In a country that has had peace and prosperity for a couple generations, one would think that people wouldn't get their shit tied up in knots over easy things like this.

fff you are totally right, and my theory on this is that it exists both on a micro (local/city) level as well as a macro (nationwide) level. It's the notion of "we-were-here-first*." Whoever was already there are to thank for all the good things. Whoever comes after you are the ones who cause the trouble. Locally this might mean an influx of people from other areas. In Florida where I live, there's always this undercurrent of one-upsmanship over how long you've been in the area and suspicion directed not just to immigrants from other nations (Haiti, Mexico) but to people from specific other areas of the US. I don't know why; it's a stupid thing to quibble over, but there you have it.

Nationally, the same sentiment is mostly directed at anybody who doesn't fit the generic "American" mold, which in order counts as: White, European, some kind of Christian (Protestant of course), English-speaking. Bonus points if you like country music and drive a pickup, I guess. If you can't tick off all or most of the boxes of "true American" criteria, your whole purpose in the country is to take what other people made, leave a mess, and destroy the culture.

Every generation has had its boogeyman of outsider who gets a lot of crap. Irish, Italians, Polish, Mexican, Chinese, Muslims. One after another in various doses getting blamed for the same things. Then they "assimilate" (don't get me started on the horribleness of that term), move up a rung, and the next group moves in. Change the date, change the labels, the song remains the same.

*Native Americans excepting, of course.posted by contessa at 1:49 PM on March 31, 2010

Other than the Grand Canyon, all that's left of Arizona is a sea of chain restaurants, crowded freeways, and ignorant mean white folk. You're not missing anything.posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:25 PM on April 15, 2010

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