I live in the portland metro area in Oregon and we had a gun show this weekend. So I went to the gun show to purchase some reloading supplies and look for some gun parts and do some looking around for parts for my first Ar-15 build. I have decided to go with an olympic arms lower receiver. This one dealer that i came across had a complete olympic arms lower reciever. So i asked the guy was it post-ban or pre-ban and how much was he asking for it.He told me that it was a pre-ban lower reciever and then he said that he wanted $635.00 for it. So first i almost laughed at the price,for this seems somewhat inflated,since a brand new lower reciever from oly arms is only$125.00.Then i asked the guy if he could prove to me that the reciever was really a pre-ban lower reciever and if he could prove to me that the reciever was assembled into a rifle before the ban. He told me that I could check the serial numbers but he could not tell me that it was assembled into a rifle before the ban because their was a fire at oly arms and records were destroyed. So i asked him well what if i buy this reciever and i end up in trouble with the ATF. His response to me was that it would be the ATF's and olympic arms burden of proof whether it was a pre-ban or post-ban reciever and due to the fire at oly arms the records have been destroyed so the ATF would not bother me. Well a few red lights went off first was the price. This price seems somewhat insane for me,second was this mans ideology of that it would be the ATF needing to bear the burden of proof, and third was that this guy i feel was lieing to me for i have gone out to olympic arms web site numerous times and i have seen a list of serial numbers pertaining to pre or post ban serial numbers. I did not get the guys name but i wish that i had. So i said thanks to the guy and went on my way. I felt somewhat troubled though after this encounter. I have gone to many gun shows over the years and I like going to them so I dont make this a flame on gun shows, but i find it troubleing that their are dealers out their that are willing to either brake the law or try to take advantage of people who maybe do not know enough about things and could end up getting themselves in trouble down the road.I also find this troubeling for right know their is a bill being considered in Washington D.C. for the federal government to take over total control of gun shows nationwide. The bills name is " THE MCAIN AND LEIBERMAN BILL: THE GUN SHOW LOOP HOLE BILL"So you would think that dealers at gun shows would get a clue. Anyway i think that i will just stay towards post-ban reciever's and in the near future 80% receivers, although i would like the option of haveing the collapsible stock and flash suppressor. Questions that i have are: Am i just haveing sticker shock at the price,is this the going rate for a complete pre-ban lower reciever? Are my understandings of the law correct as far as if a receiver was manufacured before the ban but was not built into a rifle or shipped from the manufacure until after the ban it would be considered post-ban? Thanks for any info and i look forward to getting my rifle built in the near future.

You really have to be careful buying *stuff* at the Expo shows or any show for that matter. *Most* of the vendors are *reputable* but there are an awful lot of guys who sell garbage like Century or Hesse FAL's, Olympic AR-15's, CETME's, Western Metal AR-15 mags ..etc. Every time they tell me for instance they have had no complaints from customers who have bought the Hesse FAL's or Olympic AR-15's. Yeah Right! The internet if full of complaints about these guns. You be the judge!

Speaking of AR-15's, there is one guy who sells pre-ban M-4's for $1800+ or so. I was looking at his guns and he remarked how he refinished the upper and lower receivers ..etc. I got the idea that he assembled guns from some sort of parts which is okay, but for $1800+? Give me a break! Who knows what kind of parts they were, pre or post-ban. Oh of coarse he said they were pre-ban. I'll bet they weren't!

Anyway, when you hear the burden of proof is on the ATF or a manufacturer, the BS should go off.

The dealer was confused. Olympic DID have a fire, but it destroyed all the records pertaining to preban assembly. They have serial number lists, but NO way to tell if any serial numbers prior to a certain date left the factory as complete rifles.

Also... TECHNICALLY, we live in a country where it's suppose to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. We should have not have to PROVE that we are innocent. So I would be one that would argue that the burden of proof is on the atf.

There are thousands, i would venture to say millions?) of preban colts out there that do not have 'preban' paperwork with them. Anyone could say... "that colt lower 'COULD' have been incomplete before the ban".

It's my opinion that it would be one big technicality type of MESS, and would be used to just drain the individual of funds and resources, and most likely they have done something else wrong if the atf is after them.

I thought there was an ATF ruling that stated when the preban lower had its original preban upper removed (or parted out), the preban lower LOST its grandfathered status and could now only be built into a postban weapon?

I'm not saying I agree with the convoluted logic used, but that's what the finding said.