I think Legend is right. Aside from the USN it is the RN the only one building two 70,000 tons vessels: the Queen Elilzabeth Class aircraft carriers. And we are talking about the last navy that acomplished a military victory (1982) so, at least, must be INTO the list.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill

6. Taiwan (the Naval Version of the Israeli Army: small, tough - as - nails; equipped with Aegis Destroyers).

Only Japanese and South Korean Navies have ships with Aegis system (if we are discussing the Far East countries). Taiwanese Navy wants Aegises badly, but pressure which China is putting on the US over that issue is effective.

Come on! Chinese Navy has its weaknesses, but at very least it is stronger than navies of New Zealand, Thailand (for instance Chakri Naruebet lacks serious punch and currently she is not ready for any strike missions), Pakistan (its Navy is smaller and rather less modern than Chinese one). Finally, in case of China-Taiwan conflict I would also put my money on Chinese Navy (even if my sympathy would be with the Taiwanese).

6. Taiwan (the Naval Version of the Israeli Army: small, tough - as - nails; equipped with Aegis Destroyers).

Only Japanese and South Korean Navies have ships with Aegis system (if we are discussing the Far East countries). Taiwanese Navy wants Aegises badly, but pressure which China is putting on the US over that issue is effective.

Come on! Chinese Navy has its weaknesses, but at very least it is stronger than navies of New Zealand, Thailand (for instance Chakri Naruebet lacks serious punch and currently she is not ready for any strike missions), Pakistan (its Navy is smaller and rather less modern than Chinese one). Finally, in case of China-Taiwan conflict I would also put my money on Chinese Navy (even if my sympathy would be with the Taiwanese).

Australia will be the next AEGIS equipped nation with their recent order from Lockheed Martin.This is most likely to help the US isolate rouge North Korea from any possible attack on the region or even the US itself.

Karl Heidenreich wrote:I think Legend is right. Aside from the USN it is the RN the only one building two 70,000 tons vessels: the Queen Elilzabeth Class aircraft carriers. And we are talking about the last navy that acomplished a military victory (1982) so, at least, must be INTO the list.

I agree with both of you. While the RN's victory over the Argentinians was flawed due to poor decisions. It was a victory none the less and proved the quality of the British fighting force especially the Sea Harriers in operations against the AAF's Mirage's, Skyhawks, and Etendards.

then, far lather back2- Japan3- India4- Russia, but I'm unsure because every times a fleet take the sea, a tug follow a handfull of Mistral-classkaya will be help full5- China, the destroyers fleet is reniewing since some years now, and the latest destroyers or frigate such as the type 51 or 54 are quite good. the Amphib isn't bad at all, and I really believe the CV programme will give something. the Air force is not forget with Su 33 fighter in increasing number6- UK but i'am unsure, because of course them have the invincibl, and nuke sub, but as you know, to set fire every week in a british sub is a tradition like the the-times, after all, clearly when the 2 HMS Variag and HMS Kusnetsov will be ready (.... in 20 years) the royal navy may be powerfull. I put RN over the other european fleet, because them's experience. anyway, if US go pissing somewhere, them follow without questions7a 7b 7c- France, Italy, Spain, together. France have CVN, SNLE, Amphibies, but is leack of AA destroyer, Spain have good Aegis, but small CV and no Sub, small amphibies capacity, Italy is a comprehensive fleet with a handfull of the best sub in the world, U212 Class

- Well sir, please agree with me that you other, French, you fight for monnay, whenn us, british, fight for the honnor !- Of course sir, but you know, everybody fight for what he's leack !Robert Surcouf, French Corsair, 1773-1827

Well... besides the fact that they have a catastrophe every other year with their sub forces... they are one of the few power projection navies left... despite the fact that they are not as industrious as the USN...

Legend wrote:Another point I may add. Unless they have had large scale modernization within the last ten years... along with a massive undertaking for a blue water navy... the Chinese have mainly small PT craft.

That is a dreadful underestimation of the current state and future development of the Chinese navy , you really need to Google it and do an hour or so of study old boy . Starting from a base of secondhand Russian vessels post WW2 they have had their own indigenous design and construction workforces for long enough for people who started their working lives in the trade to now be retiring from it .The Chinese navy is considerable , and for a task which appears to be local ocean control both ships and crews look efficient and compare with western standards .

Coming from behind as they were , some advanced designs were not good , such as the Han class SSNs , but this is a nation Billions strong in poulation , with huge economic wealth at present , and they learn . As example , look at their Space programme .

China remains as inscrutable as always , but I would guess that there is some debate within the Chinese government as to whether to continue with the previous naval doctrine ( having control over their nearby waters ) , or whether to commit the fantastic amount of wealth needed to create and run a world going navy . Fortunately it seems as if sense is still prevailing , but at the time when they were buying up the Russian C V s , during the Soviet economic collapse , I had my doubts , for there obviously was some clear intention to develop their own sea-power at that time .China has never had much of a sea-borne empire-building history , and as a people have an aversion to foreigners that is almost as bad as englishmen . I would guess that there is a degree of conservative distrust there for proposals to "strutt their stuff" on the World stage as a Great Power . A bit like our late Austrian chum Adi , a bit "landsinnig" .

Just as well for us , Hmm ... ? ...... Prawn Cracker , anyone .. ?

" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

That is a dreadful underestimation of the current state and future development of the Chinese navy , you really need to Google it and do an hour or so of study old boy

I concur with that. Just because some navy do not have a SSBN or a CVN in their inventory does not mean that they are harmless to a powerfull navy as the USN or that will not, eventually, develop a weapon system capable of balancing the odds. It only takes time and the will to do it, if the resources are available, which, in the case of China (or Venezuela) exists.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill

I don't believe Venezuela will ever be ranked among the top navies of the world.

China will be and IMO will be at the top eventually. I think the US is on the way down in as our economy gradually gets worse over the years, in part because of all the wars we have been trying to pay for and our lack of cheap energy. My generation is probably lucky because we won't live that long.

Not trying to make this a political thread I think that both, China and Venezuela had some advantages:

1. Long coastlines in which their military can install coastal defenses (airstrips, docks, AA batteries, etc.). These installations will serve to defend and/or retaliate in case of USN attack.

2. In case of conflict the USN has to go to them, not the other way, which gives some edge to a cunning defender (not Saddam Hussein).

If both, China and Venezuela, develop a good naval coastal defense even CVN or SSBN can be at peril when approaching and attacking, specially the big carriers which are a good target for anyone with military pride. I think that there are several books from Tom Clancy on that.

Best regards,

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill