DeKeyser also played youth hockey with Jim Nill's son, so they knew each other. I'm sure that helped. Other teams may have offered immediate icetime (the Wings supposedly had no plans of playing him right away) but ultimately, the draw of playing at home was probably the biggest factor. If we're going to cite it as a reason the Wings lost out on Parise and Suter, we have to acknowledge it as a reason they got DeKeyser.

I'm not surprised Tootoo was waived and I'm not surprised he cleared. I do like him, I was surprised when the Wings signed him, and I was shocked and disappointed when I saw the terms of his contract. He had been making $1.2M per year in Nashville and was phased out of their lineup. Why a 3-year deal and why such a big raise? It's obviously come back to burn Holland. I think he should have offered somewhere between $1M-1.3M per year, and if Tootoo rejected it, move on. You can't pay 4th-line/healthy scratch players that kind of money.

Samuelsson is another story... he made $2.5M per year on his Vancouver contract. He was productive (74gp--30g-23a--53pts, 75--18-32--50, and 54--14-17--31 in the 3 years) but missed some time each season, especially in the last year, split between Vancouver and Florida. Although I hated the signing from day one, it's reasonable to expect that production should have (and maybe would have, barring the injuries) continued, even if it decreased somewhat. You can blame Holland for that signing (I do), but you can't blame him for the lack of results.

Once Ericsson comes off LTIR next FRI, sending Tootoo to G. Rapids won't clear enough cap space for Wings. Still need to shed more salary.

I thought it was interesting that George Malik stated today that Sammy's NTC is actually limited and requires him to submit a list of 8-12 teams he WILL NOT go to. This is news to myself and I'm sure everyone.

Maybe a glimmer of hope he actually can be traded without his consent?

"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."Vince Lombardi

When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

I thought it was interesting that George Malik stated today that Sammy's NTC is actually limited and requires him to submit a list of 8-12 teams he WILL NOT go to. This is news to myself and I'm sure everyone.

Maybe a glimmer of hope he actually can be traded without his consent?

Nope just NTC. It will state whether it's modified or has stipulations.

"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."Vince Lombardi

When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

DeKeyser also played youth hockey with Jim Nill's son, so they knew each other. I'm sure that helped. Other teams may have offered immediate icetime (the Wings supposedly had no plans of playing him right away) but ultimately, the draw of playing at home was probably the biggest factor. If we're going to cite it as a reason the Wings lost out on Parise and Suter, we have to acknowledge it as a reason they got DeKeyser.

I'm not surprised Tootoo was waived and I'm not surprised he cleared. I do like him, I was surprised when the Wings signed him, and I was shocked and disappointed when I saw the terms of his contract. He had been making $1.2M per year in Nashville and was phased out of their lineup. Why a 3-year deal and why such a big raise? It's obviously come back to burn Holland. I think he should have offered somewhere between $1M-1.3M per year, and if Tootoo rejected it, move on. You can't pay 4th-line/healthy scratch players that kind of money.

Samuelsson is another story... he made $2.5M per year on his Vancouver contract. He was productive (74gp--30g-23a--53pts, 75--18-32--50, and 54--14-17--31 in the 3 years) but missed some time each season, especially in the last year, split between Vancouver and Florida. Although I hated the signing from day one, it's reasonable to expect that production should have (and maybe would have, barring the injuries) continued, even if it decreased somewhat. You can blame Holland for that signing (I do), but you can't blame him for the lack of results.

I can't trash Holland for signing Samuelsson. It made some degree of sense at the time. But multi-year and NTC did not.

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I thought it was interesting that George Malik stated today that Sammy's NTC is actually limited and requires him to submit a list of 8-12 teams he WILL NOT go to. This is news to myself and I'm sure everyone.

Maybe a glimmer of hope he actually can be traded without his consent?

Well, that is just excellent news. I don't think I've ever liked a post on LGW more. Now if only we could get someone to want him and that terrible contract....

Datsyukian

Dat·syu·ki·an [dat-soo-kee-uh n]

adjective

1. When your moves are so amazing and beyond reason, the only way to describe them is "datsyukian."

There isn't any resistance to youth. There's just resistance to the youth that you personally want to see. Smith is young, Dekeyser is young, Andersson is young, Tatar is young, Lashoff is young. All of them have seen significant playing time this year and last. Mrazek will next year, and so will Nyquist. If Nyquist were playing right now you wouldn't be saying either Babcock or Holland were resistant to youth influxes. You're only saying this because you'd rather have Nyquist than Cleary or Sammy. We all would. But not playing one guy does not make an organization resistant to youth.

But, but, but...Quincey is terrible and Quellet is sooooooooooooo good! Everybody used to say the same thing about Smith. In truth, most guys in GR need to be there another year at least, Nyquist, Mrazek, and Glendening aside.

thanks for answering with a bunch of hyperbole. it always helps advance a conversation along! /sarcasm

the red wings have openly stated they want to keep their prospects in the minors for a long time. i'm pretty sure when an organization goes on the record saying something like that, there's not much reason to try and say it isn't the case. this is not about cleary versus nyquist or something so simple. this is about a pattern over several years where the wings will have young player that they never give a chance to. they stash them in the ahl for years and then give them limited chances to prove themselves often not putting them in a chance to succeed.

heck, you mention quincey. he's a great example showing how long this has been going on. he was always sheltered in detroit and had to go to other teams to prove he could make it in the nhl. (however his second stint here is really making me question that!) but had he stayed in detroit, he most likely would have never got those minutes because we were too busy keeping a 58 year old chris chelios on the roster. additionally we had guys like ritola and mursak that showed great potential, but were only given limited 4th line minutes before moving on. sure you can say neither of them made it in the nhl anywhere else, but that's not the point. the point is that the team needs to give younger players a legitimate shot at proving themselves.

it worries me that guys like tatar and nyquist will suffer the same fate as guys like ritola and mursak. guys that had promise but never helped the team.

and yes there are a number of younger players on the team now. unfortunately, it seems to always take a rash of injuries to make that happen. i know we are a top level team and don't have slots for youth, but it was frustrating to see the blackhawks last year manage to fit in saad and shaw into their very high quality lineup and allow them to excel. you look at a guy like shaw who as a 5th rounder but has the 5th most games played by anyone in his draft class right now.

for forwards, there have not been any players under 25 given chances to play in the top 6 in the last several years. we have been a bit open to trying the european guys like leino and brunner and giving them minutes, but i just don't see much opportunity for our young players. on defense the last 12 months have been nice. it was good to see that holland gave younger players a chance after we lost all the veterans. i am hoping that attitude continues.

long story short, i am trying to have a genuine conversation and make legitimate points. i would appreciate less mocking in peoples responses.

Edited by dobbles, 08 November 2013 - 11:07 AM.

I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.

Why would the Wings waive Bert? He is 3rd in goals, 6th in assists, and 5th in overall points, and leads the team in power play goals (all the while only averaging 14:42 of TOI per game). It would be beyond silly to waive him.

. additionally we had guys like ritola and mursak that showed great potential, but were only given limited 4th line minutes before moving on. sure you can say neither of them made it in the nhl anywhere else, but that's not the point. the point is that the team needs to give younger players a legitimate shot at proving themselves.

Ritola and Mursak were never given a proper shot because quite frankly they weren't good enough.

"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

Ritola and Mursak were never given a proper shot because quite frankly they weren't good enough.

i honestly don't think that assessment can be made. there was never much time to tell. before getting injured, the year mursak finally got games, he was on a line with holmstrom and emmerton at even strength. no one was going to put up tons of points in that role.

as it stands right now, tatar and nyquist fall into the exact same category. neither of them can stick in the lineup. so i guess we'll stick with the samuelssons, clearys, bertuzzis, maltbys, etc until they are well past serviceable because we are too afraid to take a chance.

we see all the time players that are not given a shot by a team and go on to be very successful in other places. our organization has had success with that very concept in the past. dan cleary gave us many good years of hockey. but yet if you asked blackhawk fans 10 years ago about dan cleary, you would have gotten the same response as you just gave about mursak or ritola.

I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.

i honestly don't think that assessment can be made. there was never much time to tell. before getting injured, the year mursak finally got games, he was on a line with holmstrom and emmerton at even strength. no one was going to put up tons of points in that role.

as it stands right now, tatar and nyquist fall into the exact same category. neither of them can stick in the lineup. so i guess we'll stick with the samuelssons, clearys, bertuzzis, maltbys, etc until they are well past serviceable because we are too afraid to take a chance.

we see all the time players that are not given a shot by a team and go on to be very successful in other places. our organization has had success with that very concept in the past. dan cleary gave us many good years of hockey. but yet if you asked blackhawk fans 10 years ago about dan cleary, you would have gotten the same response as you just gave about mursak or ritola.

They are available to every team in the league. Nobody wants them. Its not like we're the only ones with their game footage and are hiding their talents from everyone.

Bottom-line their not talented enough.

"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."Vince Lombardi

When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

It's difficult to say what a player woulda, coulda, shoulda been. But the Wings do keep their players in the minors seemingly much longer than other organizations do. Had it not been for the onslaught of injuries last season, Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, Smith, etc, would have never seen the ice at JLA. I think even DeKeyser would have been relegated to the minors had he been in a typical situation. You have to think that other GM's were bringing up how the Wings keep their prospects in the minors forever.

i honestly don't think that assessment can be made. there was never much time to tell. before getting injured, the year mursak finally got games, he was on a line with holmstrom and emmerton at even strength. no one was going to put up tons of points in that role.

as it stands right now, tatar and nyquist fall into the exact same category. neither of them can stick in the lineup. so i guess we'll stick with the samuelssons, clearys, bertuzzis, maltbys, etc until they are well past serviceable because we are too afraid to take a chance.

we see all the time players that are not given a shot by a team and go on to be very successful in other places. our organization has had success with that very concept in the past. dan cleary gave us many good years of hockey. but yet if you asked blackhawk fans 10 years ago about dan cleary, you would have gotten the same response as you just gave about mursak or ritola.

Both Tatar and Nyquist have shown far in the AHL and the NHL so far than Mursak or Ritola ever did. The reason Goose can't get in the line-up is because of Kenny's poor roster management the last 2 off-seasons.

"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

Both Tatar and Nyquist have shown far in the AHL and the NHL so far than Mursak or Ritola ever did. The reason Goose can't get in the line-up is because of Kenny's poor roster management the last 2 off-seasons.

I am starting to think, he will need better CO Gms in order to manage the cap+roster situation a little bit better in the coming years, losing Nil might have had a bigger impact than we all like to think