I am a fan of Bertuzzi, and have really admired Cleary's hard work in the past, and acknowledge Mule showing up in the playoffs, but lately it has just been very painful to watch these players give lackluster effort every night. I understand taking nights off during an 82 game season, but it seems as if these guys don't give their full effort a large percentage of the time. I especially hate having to see these players on our top lines (ok minus mule for now, and cleary when datsyuk returns). Does anybody feel like I do, when I think that these guys have just been lucky enough to slide by, benefiting from the hard working talent that surrounds them? I know franzen leads us in goals, cleary has but up good goal totals in the past, and hudler is getting good stats this year but it just seems that they benefit from the hard work of others while they coast into the zone looking for a rebound or a perfect pass. I can't remember when I last saw one of these guys take the puck in the zone work hard on the D and cycle down low like dats, fill, helm, and Z. I think Cleary, Bert, Huds, and Franzen zap our teams energy and replacing the four of them with just two harder working players with offensive upside would greatly benefit this team. Although I do think Bert has potential as a third or fourth liner if he increases his grit, but the rest are just to hard to watch on a nightly basis. Also Homer on the fourth line is not working out that great either. Whatever though, all these guys have the potential to play, and if they show up like they are capable of then we got a shot any day. So here is to hoping they decide to show up in the playoffs this year!

[quote name='bentcobra' timestamp='1330914692' post='2266710']I know franzen leads us in goals, cleary has but up good goal totals in the past, and hudler is getting good stats this year but it just seems that they benefit from the hard work of others while they coast into the zone looking for a rebound or a perfect pass."

I meant put up, but maybe butt up is accurate when describing Cleary's play

I really didn't think Franzen looked that bad, though towards the end he (and everyone really) was skating like the Wings were up by four goals.

Its hard to look entirely in sync when your best playmaker and best offensive Dman are out. It was an uninspired game and the guys mentioned in the OP didn't play great, but really neither did anyone else. (Except Smith with his Smithwall on Kane and kicking Shaw's ass. )

Of that list, Cleary is the one who is frustrating me the most. I’m pulling my hair out watching him play because he’s totally ineffective out there. Hit someone, take shots on goal, just freaking do something with all the ice time you’re gifted.

well idk whats going on with cleary hes awful this year. I mean every time I look at him with the puck hes losing it or falling down and losing it. Defensively hes solid though thats the only plus.

bert is useless without datsyuk.

seems like franzen is too. although in most ot franzen looks like a beast. I mean s*** if Im getting paid 5mil a season I probably wouldnt have much motivation every game til it really matters. In the playoffs hes always starting s*** and holding on to the puck more and trying moves. Looks like hes just trying to not get injured this season.

hudler has nice hands good puck control and an awesome shot. he just needs to be smarter make better plays

I wouldnt mind getting rid of cleary and hudler after this year and trying to pick up parise.

Of that list, Cleary is the one who is frustrating me the most. I’m pulling my hair out watching him play because he’s totally ineffective out there. Hit someone, take shots on goal, just freaking do something with all the ice time you’re gifted.

I feel ya and I'm a big Cleary fan. I think he's still banged up, but it's frustrating to watch him play and not generate much of anything offensively.

Franzen is the worst of the bunch though IMO. Helm and Miller bust their tails every single shift and Franzen won't even put in the effort to win a puck battle along the boards. He skates around with no sense of urgency. I just don't understand why he gets excused for being so damn lazy during the regular season because he turns it up during the playoffs. You can play hard during the regular season and still be considered an even better player during the post-season. Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Filppula all do it.

I believe everyone of these guys are hurt I have no proof with Franzen but just the way he has been playing for most of the year I would put money on it that he has ome type of injury.

So what about Cleary, Huds, Bertuzzi, Franzen?

I am a fan of Bertuzzi, and have really admired Cleary's hard work in the past, and acknowledge Mule showing up in the playoffs, but lately it has just been very painful to watch these players give lackluster effort every night. I understand taking nights off during an 82 game season, but it seems as if these guys don't give their full effort a large percentage of the time. I especially hate having to see these players on our top lines (ok minus mule for now, and cleary when datsyuk returns). Does anybody feel like I do, when I think that these guys have just been lucky enough to slide by, benefiting from the hard working talent that surrounds them? I know franzen leads us in goals, cleary has but up good goal totals in the past, and hudler is getting good stats this year but it just seems that they benefit from the hard work of others while they coast into the zone looking for a rebound or a perfect pass. I can't remember when I last saw one of these guys take the puck in the zone work hard on the D and cycle down low like dats, fill, helm, and Z. I think Cleary, Bert, Huds, and Franzen zap our teams energy and replacing the four of them with just two harder working players with offensive upside would greatly benefit this team. Although I do think Bert has potential as a third or fourth liner if he increases his grit, but the rest are just to hard to watch on a nightly basis. Also Homer on the fourth line is not working out that great either. Whatever though, all these guys have the potential to play, and if they show up like they are capable of then we got a shot any day. So here is to hoping they decide to show up in the playoffs this year!

"He was standing there like a cigar store Indian" Mickey Redmond"Holmstrom gets more attention around the net than a pretty girl around closing time!" Mickey Redmond

Bertuzzi and Franzen aren't going anywhere anytime soon. If Franzen fails to show up in the postseason, I'd really consider wheeling him out of town. He takes far too many nights off for what he is paid. I'd like to see us wheel Cleary out, but we know that won't happen.

Bertuzzi works very hard out there. He justifies his price tag. I don't know what all of you are expecting out of him. The fact that he's playing without any goal-scorers on his line does not help. Franzen is in a slump, and Hudler is horribly one-dimensional. I haven't a clue what is wrong with Cleary.

That said, I don't see the call for whining. The team is not in a catastrophic position by any means. Far from it. In case you've forgotten, they were 1st overall in the league until last week, and they put together a 23-game streak at home. These are not accomplishments that a mediocre team can achieve, and the vast majority of teams in the league are doing considerably less well than the Wings are. None of the guys we're discussing in this thread are perfect, but they do their parts, as does the rest of the team.

Those of you expecting perfection and/or constant dominance on the part of the Wings should alter your expectations to a more realistic level.

cleary hopefully goes real soon. the others i don't mind. frazen is a ppg playoff player. bert is a bit of a wuss for his size that annoys me so much. and he's slow. hudler has a great snap shot. i wish he'd play like hull and just sneak around and wait for the pass for the quick one timer or snap shot to the roof of the net.

I believe everyone of these guys are hurt I have no proof with Franzen but just the way he has been playing for most of the year I would put money on it that he has ome type of injury.

Yeah, it's called "Robert Lang Syndrome"

Bertuzzi works very hard out there. He justifies his price tag. I don't know what all of you are expecting out of him. The fact that he's playing without any goal-scorers on his line does not help. Franzen is in a slump, and Hudler is horribly one-dimensional. I haven't a clue what is wrong with Cleary.

That said, I don't see the call for whining. The team is not in a catastrophic position by any means. Far from it. In case you've forgotten, they were 1st overall in the league until last week, and they put together a 23-game streak at home. These are not accomplishments that a mediocre team can achieve, and the vast majority of teams in the league are doing considerably less well than the Wings are. None of the guys we're discussing in this thread are perfect, but they do their parts, as does the rest of the team.

Those of you expecting perfection and/or constant dominance on the part of the Wings should alter your expectations to a more realistic level.

It's better to whine about the team than to whine about all the posters here.

I got a sentence into my reply before reading this - and really cant respond to this thread more appropriately. Throw a 25 foot hoola-hoop around the oppositions goaltender - because anywhere outside of there Hudler is useless. This is well documented, hes a tiny, slow, gutless player with decent hands and a quick/hard release on his shot, nothing more. Regarding Bert - for a 220lb plus 37 year old with a handful of knee and back surgeries a few years in the rearview hes busting his ass out there every game. Todd is still a first line NHL player - if hes a complementary peice on a line with a Datsyuk calibre player (as hes shown this year). Franzens inconsistent efforts certainly are frustrating but none moreso than Cleary who really looks to have aged 5 years over last summer. Hes battled injury issues since training camp apparently and its showing. His zone entries are terrible and he turns over the puck way to much. Whats sad about his circumstance is I dont attribute it to a lack of effort - not everyobdy is a Lidstrom or a Chelios and can play top notch hockey until their 40's ... I think Cleary has lost a step and I wont be surprised to see him not get re'upped next year so we can get Nyquist/Tatar on fulltime.

Bertuzzi works very hard out there. He justifies his price tag. I don't know what all of you are expecting out of him. The fact that he's playing without any goal-scorers on his line does not help. Franzen is in a slump, and Hudler is horribly one-dimensional. I haven't a clue what is wrong with Cleary.

That said, I don't see the call for whining. The team is not in a catastrophic position by any means. Far from it. In case you've forgotten, they were 1st overall in the league until last week, and they put together a 23-game streak at home. These are not accomplishments that a mediocre team can achieve, and the vast majority of teams in the league are doing considerably less well than the Wings are. None of the guys we're discussing in this thread are perfect, but they do their parts, as does the rest of the team.

Those of you expecting perfection and/or constant dominance on the part of the Wings should alter your expectations to a more realistic level.

As long as Bertuzzi continues to put up a point here and there and play a physical game, I think he fits well into the lineup. Cleary, on the other hand, is rapidly declining. I think he is really expendable, and we should seek out a younger grinder in favor of him. Plenty will be available at a cheaper price tag.

We pay Franzen as much as we do for his playoff performance. If he fails to perform this postseason, I see no reason to keep his lazy ass around. Guy could be a physical force if he really wanted to be. He loses countless amounts of puck battles along the boards to little s***s like Kane on a nightly basis. But to be realistic, lets say he has a decent postseason and sticks around.

If Ken was relieved of his duties at the end of year and Bring Back the Bruise Bros took over, this is what I would do:

*Let Hudler walk. He played solid for a while, but he's been invisible the last few games. He'll have various offers from other teams, likely overpaying him, and I don't think he's worth any more than he is making now.
*Re-sign Lidstrom if he decides to come back. Pursue Ryan Suter if Lidstrom hangs them up.
*Trade Brad Stuart to the Anaheim Ducks for Matt Beleskey. In essence, Quincey will take his spot alongside Kronwall.
*Holmstrom retires, I'm assuming.
*Send Ericsson and Cleary to Tampa for Ryan Malone and picks
*Sign Jim Vandermeer to switch in and out with Kindl.
*Put Emmerton on waivers with the intent of sending him to Grand Rapids.
*Sign Cody McCormick and move him into the lineup when we play more aggressive teams.