The information that im about to explain was my experience with suboxone and the great achievement i felt on it and the great dissapointment that I thought i was never going to get over; and YES i mean the side withdrawls from it. Everyone who uses suboxone says its a wonder drug and it definitley is if you use it correctly. I did just that, in a matter of fact i was taking 8mg a day and i was taking it for 3 months and started tapering it just like my doctor reccomeded me to do. What i felyt after the third month was scary side effects that included sever anxiety and paranoia and i started to develop depression! Yes i never in my whole life was depressed due to drug induction. Everything in my life was going kosher, from my job to my sex life to my family life,etc. The depression was soooooooooo bad i can fil up 100 trillion "o's" after the soooooo i just typed about ten words ago. BE AWARE of SUBOXONE. For people who woant to be on suboxone for the rest of their life or for a very long time just be very cautious when you try to taper not all of you will have these effects but unfortunatley i had the worst of these side effects. I became very suicidal, i was so paranoid and had such bad anxiety i was scare to leave the front door of my house. My family were very concerned about my mental health. I even went to South Africa to a special rehab that Whitney Houston went to just to regain my mental strength to get back to reality but no positive outcome. I continued to be depressed and full of anxiety for a total of 13 months until one day i started to feel my heart and my brain come back to normal. OHHHH MY LORRRD how happy I was to feel like a little bit like my old self. It was a long journey but it's been a month now and im driving, looking for jobs and getting my life back.
It was on my 11th month i went to a psychiatrist and went on subutex and took it for 21 days and that helped tremoundesly! I learned for people who "I Hope NEVER have to go through what I went through" that the nalaxone could be very dangerous, its not only a compund that the FDA places to so they can sleep at night. It's also a marketing scheme. First of i want to start by explaining that nalaxone blocks your endorphin neuro trnasmitors hence blocking the natural opiate chemical our body produces when we're in pain and also our happy good feeling hence results into depression, and thats what happened to me. Secondly, the marketing scheme part of this is that the FDA knows that nalaxone causes this and thats why people are scared of leaving suboxone and if you dare try you will end up going to shrinks and getting anti-depressants and benzos perscribed to counterbalance all these horrible side effects that the nalaxone has hexed on you. Subutex is a better alternative 100% if you plan on getting off drugs all together.

As i said this is my experience with suboxone. I am reading alot of posts and most of them are positive and i hope for all to have a safe and successful recovery off all drugs.

Thank you for sharing your experience on suboxone withdrawals. There are a lot of us who are on Suboxone therapy and wonder what our choice to taper and discontinue sub will be like, how long it will last, How BAD will it be? I am so sorry to hear your experience was so horrible. I wonder if your doctor did not keep you on the suboxone long enough. Three months is a short time to be on Suboxone. Most Doctors say a year to two years at least is best for the patient who intends on eventually tapering completely off.

I wonder if by you only being stabalized, if three months is even long enough to BE Stabalized on Suboxone, could be the reason your experience was so bad? Also, from all the information about Naloxone that I have read It seems to me that the doctor who told you the naloxone was your enemy is simply mis-informed about what naloxone actually does when taken sublingually. It actually has no action in the human body when taken sublingually, you just filter it out. It is already a negligable amount being 2mg in one 8mg suboxone, so negligable in fact, that it leads many to shoot the suboxone intraveneously because the well informed addict knows that the naloxone contained in suboxone is not enough to cause them to have any horrible withdrawals, as the drug company would want us to believe to divert such behavior. I myself can boast that I have never used needles on myself for any type of drug use. I simply took opiates by mouth and became addicted. I have been in suboxone therapy for almost three years now. I have successfully tapered from my original induction dosage of 16mg a day down to one third of 1 8mg strip daily. I now take the suboxone twice daily instead of once because my dosage is so low that I start to feel the suboxone wearing off between doses. Despite the long half life and long action of suboxone, once you are on a very low dosage the active benefits of the mediction do wear off faster and certainly do not last 24 hours therefore I split my dosage to twice daily. Some report needing to split their taper up even more, but I am doing well so far with the eighth twice daily.

I do plan to taper off completely, but I will not lie, I am scared of the withdrawls. I know that in order for my receptors to start back doing their own work, I will have to endure some withdrawal. I am hoping it will not be too severe. I don't think any of us on Suboxone therapy are expecting to stop taking the drug completely and feel nothing. If there are a few people who are confused and expect to feel nothing they will find out when they stop taking their suboxone completely. I just hope they are not too startled by withdrawls so as to lead them back into active using of opiates for relief.

Back to my original point, sorry if I am rambling, I honestly believe you were not on the suboxone long enough to get over the shame and regrets of your former using lifestyle. The shame and loneliness you feel when withdrawling from opiate addiction is the hardest part. It is what makes it almost impossible to stop using full agonist opiates. I wonder if you were still experiencing those feelings when you stopped taking your suboxone and that is why your experience was so bad? When we are wrapped up in the obsession of opiate abuse, we make some really bad choices. Making sure we can obtain and keep enough opiates to avoid withdrawls is our whole mission in life so we neglect everything else for our addiction. It has complete control over everything we do, so we do some pretty bad things if not horrible things to keep feeding our addiction. Then when we either run out of resources or have some kind of awakening that leads us to want to change and be drug free we are forced to deal with all of our bad behaviors and face what we have been neglecting which causes us tremendous depression and anxiety. Having already stated that the naloxone in suboxone has no effect therefore can't be to blame for the depression you experienced, it leads me to wonder if you simply were not in suboxone therapy long enough. Not long enough to get over your bad feelings about choices you made while using, therefore you had to deal with them during your withdrawl from the suboxone and that is what made your experience so bad.

Do you think that could be why it was so hard for you? I don't believe it had anything to do with the Naloxone. So I am just trying to figure out what caused your withdrawl to be so bad. I hope you are doing better now, and I wish you all the best in your recovery.

Suboxone and subutex is the same. Exactly. The same. As far as how it works when taken correctly.

We are just addicts. I seriously think that's all. It makes subutex better... "BECAUSE THERES NO BLOCKER IN IT! SUBOXN IS SHITTY CUZ OF THAT NASTY BLOCKER! I WANT SOMETHING SUBUTEX BAD SO I CAN FEEL BETTER..."

MovieMaker1
Thanks. I noticed that you are a longtime member to this forum, so I am sure you have heard the suboxone subutex story a lot. I do genuinely wonder why malaruri86 had such a terrible withdrawal experience. I can't help but to think it was simply because the length of treatment and fast taper were not sufficient for this addict to achieve any type of mental stability before discontinuing the Subs. My thoughts on Suboxone therapy go like this.... Some need lifetime maintenance on suboxone to stay safe, and sober. Some need a good doctor preferably a Psychiatrist who prescribes Suboxone and is an addictionologist and can make the decision that at some stable point during treatment the patient is ready to face some un comfortable withdrawals, but can discontinue the suboxone successfully. This must be the choice of the patient. The patient who chooses to taper and discontinue must be ready, any sub doc worth their salt will tell you that it takes a year to two years for almost all addicts to find stability and get their head on somewhat straight. Getting past the guilt. shame, and problems caused by active addiction takes a considerable amount of time. Surely, three to five months is not long enough to accomplish those most important goals in recovery.

I consider Suboxone therapy to be a great tool in treating addiction. For many or most addicts it is lifesaving. I would much rather see an addicted friend taking suboxone to aid in their recovery than to be attending their funeral because, That ONE time they just took it too far. For us addicts we KNOW, that One time can mean the difference between life and death. Not to mention the many other ways a person can see an early grave because of addiction. The bad places we will take ourselves into because we need to score some tabs could mean rape, or worse facing an addict more displaced than seems human, for whatever reason thinking taking the life of another addict is just a way to get a cool rush. As sick and disturbing as that may sound, it has happened, and will continue to happen as long as addiction exists. Too often addicts simply forget how horrible active addiction was for them. They forget the fact that they reduced themselves to people and places they would not dare visit just so they could acquire enough opiates to last a few more days. It is amazing to me to this very day, three years into Suboxone therapy, some of the extreme chances I was willing to take just to score opiates when I was actively using. I really did become someone else, a person I did not recognize. My addiction had complete control over me. That is what addiction does, that is the definition of addiction to me. Obsession for something that is so powerful over every thought, every action. We are powerless to addiction. I think it is important for people to remember that feeling of powerlessness. The feeling of shame, lonelyness, self-pity, low self esteem and the loss of accountability with the people in our lives who REALLY matter because our addiction made us believe the most important person was the person who had our fix for the next few days no matter that the person who has what we are looking for could also be the same person who is thinking about killing us or robbing us, or could quite possibly be our ticket straight into a lifetime of legal troubles. It's the addiction that gives us the courage to take that chance. To take a chance on our very lives. Is it courage? Is that the right word? No, it should be said the addiction makes us weak enough to be willing to take that chance. Although it is important to remember the shame, Suboxone gives us that wonderful opportunity to re-enter the land of the living. A chance to right some wrongs and get back to normal living without having to worry about enough dope to get through the week. It gives us the chance to fix our broken relationships and be able to make some promises we can actually keep. It gives us a chance to get to know ourselves again, to remember we do not have to be reduced to making ourself a friend to the enemy. It also if taken for a sufficient amount of time, takes away some of the memory of the euphoria that full agonists provide therefore reducing the cravings for the people who do decide to taper and discontinue suboxone. If a person does not have time to acheive these things then withdrawal from anything will be a nightmare for them. Afterall, our attitude is 90% of reality RIGHT?

Overall, being the addict who has chosen the route of tapering and discontinuing I will never ever say that I regret Suboxone therapy. Am I afraid of the withdrawals I will feel when I stop, YES, of course I am afraid of withdrawals, but I believe with all my heart that because I have been on the program for a sufficient time and because I have nt cheated on my taper by taking larger doses here and there like many people do. I believe that when that day comes to be off the very last dose, I may not be feeling like superwoman, but I can hold my head high knowing that I have done everything I could to overcome my addiction and that once my own receptors start back doing their magic I will be strong enough to stay far away from opiates. Sometimes it takes walking through the thorns to get to the roses, and NOW I CAN see the forest and the trees. I have great hope and if it had not been for Suboxone therapy and my wonderful Psychiatrist, I will call her Dr.G, I would not be where I am today. Suboxone gave me this chance, and I dare NOT look a gift horse in the mouth. I am scared, but i'm hopeful. I am better today than I was yesterday, and we shall see where the story goes from here.

I'm just tired of so many thinking all is "taken care of" because they feel great on suboxone after a year or two. My doctor has hundreds of patients that just take their suboxone and go about living life as though nothing ever happened. Then after awhile randomly decide it's time to stop because they feel awesome and have built their life back up materialisically. Social acceptability doesn't equal recovery! And. Taking suboxone isn't recovery! Even RB knows and says that! That is another falsely accused about them. Many complain that suboxone ruined their lives for one reason or another... Yes... If you don't follow the advice of the company that says you can just take this drug and be magically cured. Just taking suboxone literally is active addiction. If you want to change and actually do the work to change... Different story. Most don't though and I'm just so tired of hearing from them all the time in my clinic setting. Thus may not be the place to post this, but I'm just telling the truth here. I've watched it. I've tried it both ways. And. The ONLY way that this medicine will bring you aby real good is if you take it correctly, go to meetings/counseling, change your friends completely, change your personality some, and just try to change your entire lifestyle /way you think. Anyone that says I'm crazy or they can do this differently and stay clean is just wrong. I'm sorry. I kno that sounds harsh, but it's not going to happen.

There needs to be some real honesty here that hasn't been. Sure. We can encourage and help people, but we can't let them do something that is totally wrong for them and their chances of recovery. Opiate addicts usually don't stay clean. Just the way it is. So when others debate this issue... What is their supporting information? Show me all these clean opiate addicts longer than a year. Yes they do exist. Mostly completely living in an NA world. I'm sorry to be typing this but I think it isn't something to take lightly nor dismiss. Are you going to be the exception just because you want to be? Try hard enough? This isn't something that works that way. You can't just will yourself to stay clean. Or just put it all behind you.

So. Just because somebody is "inspiring" because they got off suboxone and you now feel like it's time to get off because "you aren't supposed to take medicines like this for life" or some other reason you've convinced yourself of... Great... But try taking to that very same inspiring person after a year or more. Rarely happens. Again. There are some, but look at the hundreds or thousands that have posted about getting off that are now either back on suboxone, using, dead, or gone. I just want everyone to REALLLLY remember what landed them here and just what they are dealing with.

Need some real honesty or else many are going to get hurt in the crossfire or worse.

This tone of "jumping" or "getting off" posts are a thing of the recent. Just look at the posts on this very forum from 2011 and earlier. Even some of 2012. The doctor is nowhere to be found these days... And I truly believe there is a reason for that. You can only try to help so much, but if nobody wants to believe or take that help because they, the sick addict patients, know what is best or better.... You can't really do anything.

Good luck to everyone on here doing whatever they are doing. I'm just in a crap mood after another go round at my clinic listening to how great people are doing... And then they tell you aside how much they drank, smoked, partied, did nothing for recovery, ect. Suboxone is either a godsend or a life ruiner......NOT BECAUSE OF THE MEDICINES EFFECTS, but because of the sick people taking it. You gotta want this to end for change to happen. It takes action. That action isn't taking suboxone for a stretch, go to a few meetings, get all your things back, mend a few relationships, ect. It's lifelong.

If you want off.... Be prepared. Especially for ALOT more recovery oriented events/actions... Not less.

about needing to put in the 'work' besides just taking meds,
the fact that MOST opiate addicts, do in fact, relapse,,, yes, very sad,but true.

I thought this might be a good place for this......

"willpower doesn't work"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zElJGMwpwt0[/youtube]

_________________anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/

Moviemaker1, I can see where it could be very easy to get frustrated at other addicts. It is us on Suboxone who KNOW how hard it can be to find a doctor, a good doctor, someone we trust. Then to walk into the clinic and hear stories about how someone shot it up for the first time the other day or how "Susie" is doing so great, but you have asked her HEY, what meetings do you attend and you get a dumbfounded stare. Two weeks later you find out Susie has been selling her subs on the street to pay bills, or buy some other drug, Or whatever and it makes you want to scream HELLO people getting in here was not easy. YOU ARE forgetting how screwed up you were that you ended up here in the first place. Ive been there so I can feel your irritation. I try to remember though that my situation is the most important, and that since in reality I cannot fix Susie I should just concentrate on Me because afterall, None of us addicts can be fixed. We just have to do the best we can do, for those of us trying everyday and fighting the good fight to stay clean "RIGHT ON" we deserve some credit because not a single one of those other people we run into in treatment who are bragging about getting blasted over the weekend are going to give us any. They are still trapped in denial. Lets just be thankful that we are not them, we are no longer trapped in denial.

To address your comment on how you did not like my reference to "getting ones head on straight". What I mean is being on suboxone therapy long enough to have a chance to right some wrongs and put some of the shame of active using in the past. And sadly, you are correct, for some people this step forward just does'nt happen. I would like to be an encouragement to whomever may read any post I put on here though, that it can be done. Those sad self-loathing days can be put in the past with hard work and determination and a strong desire to stay clean. If they are having a hard time finding that desire then obviously there is some part of their personality defect that I cannot comprehend. I am not a Doctor. I am just an oppiate addict.

I'm so sorry I chose your thread to air my frustration. I didn't mean to single this one out.

I'm just glad you at least see where I am coming from and gave me some great advice. I tend to let them stupid shit get to me because it's like I bust my ass to keep my doctor happy and others just lie about it. There are tons of consequences but very little rewards. Like. I said we should be spilt up into groups based on actual recovery... Not just time away from drugs or time you've figured out to beat a drug screen. Just frustrated. You're right.

So. I'm just going to try and focus on ME and my friends that take this stuff correctly and want to change their lives for the better.... One other person lol.... But at least I can try to let go of this other stuff.

My clinic had 3 levels. Beginner, intermediate, and advanced. All based strictly on "clean time". What could I present to them to make this system better? How could we weed out the fakers? Or. What rewards could be put into place?

moviemaker1, Those are some really great questions. I'm not quite sure there are any real answers to them though, not any that would actually do much good. First of all, like I said in an earlier post, I would rather see a person taking suboxone and at least going to a doctor even if they are'nt trying as hard as me or you to do it right, than to see them in an early grave. Sadly some of the patients in therapy will NEVER do it right and may well see that early grave despite their taking the first right step admitting they have a problem they cannot control and entering suboxone therapy. It's called diversion and it is becoming a big problem especially with the new younger generation of addicts. Inevitably their poor choices will likely end up causing treatment to become harder for those of us who are really wanting to stay clean and follow the rules. There is already the cap sub docs have to deal with, so them having patients getting arrested for selling their subs on the street will eventually put an even darker cloud over suboxone therapy for the people who do not believe in it, or the mis-informed people who think suboxone is just another bad drug. Also, for the few deaths that have happened in relation to suboxone because of opiate nieve people using it recreationally, not understanding it has such a high potency because it is intended for those of us already addicted to large doses of opiates that have created a high tolerance to opiates due to our over usage or length of usage of opiates. The only way these nieve folks are getting their hands on any suboxone is through diversion, people with suboxone scripts selling their meds on the streets. I wonder if they ever once let it enter their minds that they are putting peoples lives at risk when the whole reason they started subs to begin with was to save their own. I don't know. I know it is sad though. It just makes things so much harder for those of us who are really trying and it also make things harder for our doctors as well.

As far as suggestions for some type of reward system, I would simply talk to my doctor about that if I were you. Ask your doctor what could be done to reward those in your program who are doing a great job and sticking to the rules. Use the fact that positive re-inforcement helps the clean addict to stay on the right path. My psychiatrist has done this throughout my treatment...... I started out having to see her once every month. I had a drug test every other month and sometime surprise tests when i did not expect it. She explained that when she popped a test on a patient if the patient passed the test there would be no charge for that test. If the test was failed then I have no clue what she did because I never failed one. Then after I was in treatment for around six months she started only requiring every other month visits, as more time went on I realized I hadnt had a drug screen in a long time. Then as more time went by and we started my taper and I did well with that each time she started spreading out my time between visits even further. I assume this is her reward system in a way. She also always made it a point to tell me that if at anytime during treatment I needed to see her or speak to her she would be there for me and she has made good on all her promises for the past three years i have been in treatment with her. I also assume she keeps her promises as long as her patients keep their promises to her.

No differently than you, I have been in the clinic and heard others talking. i have also been in the parking lot just outside the clinic and heard people making plans on selling their subs or talking about how wasted they got over the weekend. It was hard for me as I do feel an obligation to my pdoc and I always found it hard not telling her or being a tattle tale...lol whatever you want to call it. One day I had gotten frustrsted because I was in the waiting area and heard a guy on his cell phone talking about how he was going to tell the doc his subs had been stolen over the weekend so he could get another script. I did not tell my doctor what I had heard. I just stuck to my own therapy session with her and as I was leaving I had a conversation with her receptionist. I brought up hard patients, I asked what does she do when people say their meds were stolen or constantly call in wanting more meds. She said well, Dr, G is a psychiatrist, she can tell when she is being lied to. She said she had actually heard her screaming at patients before because they had been lying to her and she was fed up. She also said that she had seen her kick several patients out of treatment. I thought to myself, that is great, now I do not have to feel the responsibility to tell her the things I hear anymore. I had never told her anything, but the thought had crossed my mind a few times and I felt relieved to realise my Doctor HAD IT under control and she knew what was going on with those patients who were'nt really trying. It took that feeling of obligation off of my shoulders. I also learned something important through those experiences, My Treatment is what is most important, me being accountable for my actions is my only responsibility. It is not my responsibility to worry about what the others are doing right or wrong. That is my doctors responsibility. I am in treatment to get MYSELF better and the last thing I need is to put more stress on myself by worrying about what the other addicts are doing in treatment. If they choose to do the wrong thing it will catch up with them. Plus, if they do take some of their suboxone as they are prescribed then some good can come out of it because since their receptors are blocked up they may shoot up ten oxys over the weekend, but they are not going to overdose and die and Hey, that is never a Bad thing. And our reward.... Our reward comes each and everyday when we wake up in the morning and do not have to worry about pills or having enough to stay out of wds. Our reward comes in the knowing that we are not going to jail because we arent breaking any laws. Our reward comes in knowing that we are not going to od and die because we are no longer active addicts. Our reward is the chains being broken, we have our freedom back. To me all those things are HUGE rewards. I do not need anyone else to reward me. I have found peace through treatment and thats a wonderful reward. I do believe that positive reinforcement helps to keep us on the right path though and if I were going to ask my doctor about any type of reward system, That is the sentence I would start the conversation out with.

You took the words right out of my mouth, TheGreatestIsLove... We shouldn't need any outside rewards from our doctor. The reward is being at peace with ourselves. We need to focus on OUR OWN recovery and not worry about what everyone else is doing, those other people can't keep us sober and we will never be able to "fix" all of them.

Movie Maker 1, so you've used subutex longterm too, to make that observation? Is is not possible some one else can have a different reaction to a chemical? I think it's relavant, as I had depression on 8mg suboxone also, but couldn't swear it was nalaxone causing it.
Thegreatestislove, suboxone aint a one size fits all "drug" and methadone or even codiene is much perfered and used by addict's in recovery/ maintenance mode. I know folk with naltraxone implants who enjoy shooting suboxone, as the bup seems to stick so well to receptors. Tho not knowing what malaruri86 D.O.C. is, it could be as you stated a rebound paws like symptom of past drug use, but I know nalaxone can cause slight agitation. And if you alternatively used both I think you would notice the difference.
Simple to accecpt some are more sensitive to chemical compounds than others. Thanks for sharing your experience malarurui86.

stargazer, I am sorry if you mis-understood any of my posts. I asked malarurui86 a question. I wondered if the possible reason for her having such a bad experience with the suboxone was because she was inducted and then tapered three months later, then started to have problems after the taper. Reading the post it seemed that 3 months was not a long enough time to be stabalized on the suboxone. Through much research I have found that almost all Sub doctors tell their patients that a year to two years is the best length of time to stay on the suboxone therapy for the patient who is wanting to eventually discontinue the drug. I have posted the reasons why being on the subs for a significant amount of time is so important. To me personally I believe suboxone and subutex are the same drug. They have the same benefits and the same actions in the body. Naloxone which is in suboxone is not the same drug as naltrexone. They have similar qualities, but they are not the same drug. The naloxone in the suboxone has no action in the human body when it is taken properly, not to mention the amount of naloxone in suboxone is so negligable that many doctors have stated that is is practically useless to even include it in the medicine. I do not believe that though, there are a lot of opiate addicts who believe the naloxone in the suboxone will make them very sick if they take too much of their medicine or if they shoot it up intraveneously. So if at least some patients on suboxone therapy believe this it will discourage any intravenous usage of their meds therefore changing one of the patterns of their addicition to opiates which will be a good thing for them because thats is the whole intention of suboxone, to break the patterns of active addiction and to give the addict a chance to make necessary changes for recovery. Having said all of that, I agree with you 100% that suboxone is NOT a one size fits all drug and I have never ever said I thought it was. For some addicts counseling with no meds is best, for some subutex is best because they believe it is better for them and like I said in an earlier post ,attitude is 90%, we need to have a positive attitude about our treatment whichever, or whatever the treatment choice may be for each individual. For some patients who are allergic to any of the in-active ingredients in suboxone, subutex may be better, they may even have to try different brands of generic subutex in order to find the solution. For pregnant woman some doctors believe subutex is the better choice for them during their pregnancy because there are not enough studies to say indefinately that the naloxone in the suboxone is safe during pregnancy. I recently went to a doctors appointment with my cousin who is in suboxone therapy. She had just found out she was pregnant and she was terrified that the suboxone may harm her unborn child. Her Doctor told her that continuing on the suboxone would be safe in his professional opinion as far as the naloxone was concerned as it has no effect(it does nothing) when the medication is taken properly. He followed that statement up with,"but if you would feel more comfortable taking subutex then that is fine too." She chose to switch to the subutex during her pregnancy. Over-all I believe we should all try to do our best to be supportive of each others decisions during addiction recovery and treatment. Much like I was there for my cousin to be supportive of whatever she decided to do in her situation. Every addict has a unique set of circumstances, but we all share a common bond. We are all opiate addicts. Me personally, I hope to be an encouragment to anyone who shares this struggle with me because I know how hard it is. I support whatever works for each individual addict who is working hard to recover, whatever route they take on their journey, as long as it is helping them to get better, I am all for it.

Thank You to everyone who has been so supportive. I do plan to stick around. I also hope I may be an encouragment to anyone going through this battle. If anything I post can help even 1 person or answer a question for someone then I am happy for that. We are all in this together.

Thegreatestislove, you nailed it! I just love the way you explain yourself, and get your points across. All of your posts on this thread have been a good read for me!

Have you ever thought about being an addiction counselor, or therapist someday? I think you would be GREAT at it! You could really help alot of people and at the same time maintain your own recovery while your at it.

I can relate to every one of your posts on here. In one of your first couple of ones you talked about the need to stabilize on the sub, and use that time on therapy to work through and get over your guilt and shame of the things we have done in active addiction, and the potentially dangerous situatuations we put ourselves through in active addiction. When i was in active addiction i went to some rough places to get my fix, places i would have NEVER went to had my addiction not given me the "courage" to do so. I remember in particular i went to see this old pervert who i was able to obtain my fix at a fraction of the cost other people had to pay. No, ive never done any sexual favors or anything like that(thank god) but i put up with him making nasty comments to me, he would always ask for a hug and would linger on me, "accidently" grazing my ass or thigh. I put myself in a situation where i could have possibly been raped or maybe worse, but somehow i was lucky enough to escape those unfortunate consequences. But im still ashamed in myself for putting myself through that.

I do not get my sub from a doctor. I have no insurance, and i work in fast food so i do not have the means to pay for treatment out of pocket. Ive been using suboxone for a little over 2 years, through people who sell it on the street. I know many people do not agree with this, and honestly i dont agree with this either. If i was fortunate enough to be on sub therapy through a doctor i would NEVER take it for granted. But for me getting suboxone on the street is MUCH better than the alternative. I know there are alot of things i need to work through to eventually obtain long term sobriety, but today im better off than i was 2 years ago, and im confident that if i put in the work i will get there with time

i also hope you stick around, i think you have alot of great insights to offer. And there is alot to learn here too. Great forum, im so glad i found this place!

Hi BeautifulDisaster, Thank you for your kind words I really appreciate them. I am glad you are taking suboxone and managed to get away from your drug of choice so that you can have recovery and not have the fear of overdose or worse like you said, the places we go to obtain our opiates are sometimes very dangerous for us. It is much better to be on the suboxone and away from those bad situations. I have to be honest with you about something though.... I do not JUDGE anyone. That is not my place, so please do not think I am judging you in anyway in what I am about to say.

A huge part of recovery is getting away from the behaviors of an active using lifestyle. One major behavior in active addiction is acquiring drugs or prescriptions illegally. If you are buying your suboxone off the street you cannot escape from that behavior. Also you are putting yourself in danger of getting into serious trouble with the law. The last thing you need in recovery is to be thrown into jail. Another problem I see with obtaining subs without a script is that if you are dealing with people who are selling their sub script, then what other addictive behaviors are they ingaging in? You need to seperate yourself from anything that reminds you of active opiate addiction in order to get yourself to a safe place in your mind so as to avoid relapse down the road. You should be trying to avoid any people who sell their prescriptions or ingage themselves in other unlawful behaviors. I would assume if they are selling their subs then they are still using opiates and you need to seperate yourself from that because that is just a contact who can lead you right back into relapse. I feel like I am repeating myself now, sorry, I will ask this.... What will happen should your sub supplier get cut off of treatment or get in trouble with the law and then you are left with no way to obtain your subs? That is just too many risks from my perspective.

I do understand that you do not have insurance and feel that you do not have the money to afford to pay doctor visits. However, somehow you manage to pay for your subs on the street. I guarantee you that if you do some research in your area and find a sub doctor you will find that after the first treatment entry payment which can be expensive, you will realise that you are not paying anymore for your visits and script than you are paying now by buying them on the street. You may even find that you are spending less. Also , you won't have the fear of not being able to get your meds for some reason, and you will have a doctor treating you who can help you with other aspects of addiction, rather than just self medicating, which will be sooo much better for you in the long run. Plus you won't have to live with any fear of breaking the law and getting into trouble which will cost way way more than paying a suboxone doctor.

I am not rich, I am a stay at home Mom. I do not have health insurance, Yet I have figured out ways to pay for my treatment and my meds. Where there is a will, there is a way. It is just too easy to get them off the street and let the person going to the doc for the script do all the leg work, but in order for you to get the most out of your sub treatment you need to be doing the leg work. You need to be seeing a doctor. You need to get yourself away from people who engage in addictive behaviors (selling their scripts). I am not telling you this to judge you in anyway. I am telling you this to help you and to be honest with you. I would hope to see you get the full benefits of sub therapy and you simply cannot acheive that goal if you are not in sub therapy.

Hi thgreatestislove, im not offended at all by what you said. I have actually thought those very same things myself. What i seen from my perspective from your reply is someone who cared enough about a total stranger to take the time and write an honest, hearfelt reply. Thank you for that!

Heres my pickel. I jave done some research about sub therapy from doctors in my area and not counting the inital fees for induction and what not the average cost would be 300-400 a month for JUST the doctor visit, with medication cost im looking at somewhere near 800 a month. I spend about 300 a month right now, so i will have to do some work to figure out how to make this fit in my budget. I have always maintained a low dose 4mg most of the time sometimes i can get by with only 2mg. The person i get my sub from does use them properly, the problem is they are over prescribed. They get 24mg a day and they only take about 8, so they are getting prescribed 3 times the amount they need. I think reckless prescribing is a big problem in this country with SOME doctors anyway. That why so many pills are available for sale on the stree, they are just way too easy to obtain. When i learned that new york state is reclassifing hydrocodone as a schedual 2 narcotic i thought "finally, its about time" maybe that action will potentially save alot of people from the cycle of addiction. I know it wont eliminate addiction but if it saves a few people than thats great, i would not wish this on my anybody.

Having said all that though, i am NOT gonna give up trying to get in sub therapy legally i will bug the crap out of EVERY clinic in my area to be one of the lucky 3 people who can go on the patient assistance program. Im not gonna give up trying. I agree with everythin you said, i need a doctor to help me, i cant do alone. Im sure one day i will hit a wall where i cant obtain my subs, its already happened a couple of times over the last 2+ years and that just left me in a bad situation where i had to use full agonist opiates for as long as a week until i could obtain more! I know i will never achieve true recovery thos way, which is why i HAVE to find a way to my own doctor. Do you think if i was honest and told a doctor that ive been isong subs that were not my own that would somehow disqualify me or something?

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