You can definitely work out any solution that works for you and your STBX, but it has to come from a place of mutual respect. Right now, as you describe it, you are trying to force your ex to spend time with the kids in a way that you think he should (come round the house, spend time) and no acknowledging that he is parenting in the way he wants to for now (showing up at games, having a separate relationship with your 20 year old).

You can't force him to be the parent you want him to be. You can be open to discussions, you can be amendable to his ideas and solutions. Those are two different things.

I did a divorce and child support agreement where the father hardly ever showed up for visits. The kids would sit there on "his" weekends and wait and he just never showed up. They spent the day crying wondering why their Dad wasn't coming. And then once in a while he would take them. It sucked for the kids, because being forced to sit there and hope he'd show was more hurtful to them than having him have no role in their lives. And our judge granted our motion to terminate visitation, because no one can force a man to be a father. You can force him to pay child support, but not to take the kids, play sports with them, want to spend time with them etc. Its just a fact of life. Your ex is an adult. Your kids should be your priority. You do the best you can for them, and stop looking at what you can do to make him something he isn't.

//my 2 cents.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

You can't make him the parent he is not. You can do a shiitake tonne of work and put a band-aid on his basically selfish behavior. An adult who wanted a relationship with his minor children would not hide from you.

Plus, your kids know who is is by now. There is a huge difference between two people working together and one person doing all the heavy lifting.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

That's terrible, jp, and I am sorry that your mom acted that way, but maybe she felt she had no choice?

Maybe I wasn't clear that I am not avoiding dealing with issues by not dealing with him. I have a good job and I have money put away, and there's more to it than that. I don't want to go into very much detail on a public forum but money is not an issue.

Vantine, a formal separation agreement is not necessary, not according to the laws of my province. If we want to get divorced we have to have a custody arrangement but that is all. If someone were to convince him that he should have the house or some other crazy idea then I would hire a lawyer to protect me. I intend to file for divorce exactly one year after he left (according to the no-fault divorce laws of our province) and we will need to have custody arranged by then.

The only issue here that is important right now is the teens having some interaction with their dad. I really want to encourage the children to have a relationship with their dad but I can't do that without a willingness from him. I think he would be willing if I were to initiate the discussion but I don't want to do that. You can say, you can't make him parent, but in fact that is what he wants and he may not ever be a parent without my help, so...my choice may be to continue to help him be a parent for at least 5 more years, which might be better for the kids but might make me crazy, or, go completely hands off and possibly end up with the kids not having any sort of relationship with him, which would suck. I have sought out good male role models for the boys, especially as teenagers, to help counteract their dad's bad parenting - not a cure but I think it worked okay for the oldest.

I hope that makes sense. Take money off the table, and think mediation, not antagonism.

That is more clear.

I'd still recommend a separation agreement, though. I went to law school at the University of Alberta and actually worked in a family law office for a couple of years in law school. The thing about Canadian family law (and I recall it's pretty similar across all the provinces) is that if you make an informal temporary arrangement, even if you don't intend it to be permanent, that can have a significant impact on any subsequent orders made by the court. For example, if you decide to care for the kids 80% of the time and him 20% during the separation but intend to ask for an order of equal custody/time when you get the divorce, the court may not be super inclined to change things, if that makes sense. It's not about duking it out or being combative or litigious; it's about managing expectations and obligations, and that kind of thing tends to avoid conflict in the long run. That said, if you feel confident, particularly having spoken to a family lawyer, then by all means, do what is best for you.

On another personal note (do I ever run out of them?) I think Tofulish and Vantine are right on, in that you can't make your ex into the parent he isn't. In my situation, my mom tried to encourage us to have relationships with my dad, and again, it led to a lot of weirdness and resentment. She was totally doing it because she wanted us to be happy and didn't want her feelings about my dad to ruin our relationships with him, but it ended up kind of creating a situation where us kids weren't really able to process the divorce (which was brought on by my dad cheating) on our own terms. Again, totally not saying any of this to guilt you, or to try and cast either of my parents in a bad light (my mom absolutely did the best she could, and we've got a great relationship now). I just recall my feelings and can see how my parents actions have affected me over the years, so I'm only offering that perspective in case it is useful. Either way, hugs for you. It sounds like you're in a tough situation right now, but it will get better.

_________________If you spit on my food I will blow your forking head off, you filthy shitdog. - MumblesDon't you know that vegan meat is the gateway drug to chicken addiction? Because GMO and trans-fats. - kaerlighed

In my situation, my mom tried to encourage us to have relationships with my dad, and again, it led to a lot of weirdness and resentment. She was totally doing it because she wanted us to be happy and didn't want her feelings about my dad to ruin our relationships with him, but it ended up kind of creating a situation where us kids weren't really able to process the divorce (which was brought on by my dad cheating) on our own terms.

I think this part is so crucial,along with the point that your kids already know who their Dad is. I've often seen it the other way, where a parent who is still resentful tries to poison the kids against the other parent (that was my experience), but it is just as valid when the other parent is trying to create a relationship for the other parent.

I hope things work out for you. I think there is a lot of peace in just letting go needing to force your ex to be something he isn't. Your sons will figure out their relationships to him, and you can just focus on being there for them and being awesome.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

It would appear (only appear, since every interaction with MrT is passive aggressive, and i'm not going there) that we're going to take a year apart. We've been talking about taking some time for FC to study in the US, and my work is slow enough that it shouldn't matter, so maybe this will fit right in.

I've got a weird situation, since we're not divorcing (yet, i don't want to burn the bridge. he suggested we leave, and i'm still reeling). Because he isn't really talking to us (and hasn't really been for weeks) it's hard to say whether this is what he wants or not and i'm honestly so sick and tired of having to be both parents, the therapist ["what do you really want to say?" gawd], the Maker of Every Decision and every other adult role that i just can't be bothered trying to drag it out of him.

Anyway, my question is this: if second parent isn't deceased or divorced, am I basically screwed in terms of getting anything done with my kid? I'm thinking if I give him a power of attorney while I'm gone (so he can get stuff done) and I take his (likewise, also a reminder to not do anything nuts), I should be able to matriculate the kid, and do anything that would require his consent. Should I be thinking about some other documentation? [a lawyer friend advised me that along with the POA we both make a public sworn declaration about him accepting that FC is going to study for a period of one year, so that he can't accuse me of fleeing with the kid, which is a big deal here after the Sean Whatsisname case.]

Yesterday was really, really bad, and my heart breaks for FC. When I was 12 my parents separated (for work purposes, although nobody TOLD ME, which seems awfully weird now that i look back on it....) for a few months and it really wrecked me [even though my father was abusive, i should have been dancing in the street]. That is nothing though compared with MrT's reasons for wanting to be apart- I'm too demanding, FC is too hard to parent, and he can't be bothered. It broke my heart to see her, just a few hours after hearing this (he said it in front of her), nattering away at him as they watched TV, trying to get some response, and him just ignoring her as usual. She's a kid, not an employee.

Anyway, I'm not sure when all this will play out. FC's passport is expired, OF forking COURSE, and it will be at least 2 months so i don't think i can get her up into school in the US for September. Her school here may not let her withdraw without penalties, so we may have to wait til the term ends in December. I'm hoping the district would let her start in January.So then of course there's the specter of having to stay here til December. in the same house.

Knowing him, after all this at the last minute he'll refuse to give consent or the POA. If that happens I have the nuclear option, but i hate to think about that. Ugh. One moment at a time.

I'm simultaneously relieved and terrified. Money has been tight, it will be even worse living in Podunk with no real job, mooching off my mother. And then will need to decide what to do. Someone tell me this is going to be OK?

You'll be ok Torque. You are smart and tough. You will figure this out and do what's right for you and your kid. Deep breath. You can do this, even if you don't think you can, you can.

torque wrote:

So, erm, here we are.

It would appear (only appear, since every interaction with MrT is passive aggressive, and i'm not going there) that we're going to take a year apart. We've been talking about taking some time for FC to study in the US, and my work is slow enough that it shouldn't matter, so maybe this will fit right in.

I've got a weird situation, since we're not divorcing (yet, i don't want to burn the bridge. he suggested we leave, and i'm still reeling). Because he isn't really talking to us (and hasn't really been for weeks) it's hard to say whether this is what he wants or not and i'm honestly so sick and tired of having to be both parents, the therapist ["what do you really want to say?" gawd], the Maker of Every Decision and every other adult role that i just can't be bothered trying to drag it out of him.

Anyway, my question is this: if second parent isn't deceased or divorced, am I basically screwed in terms of getting anything done with my kid? I'm thinking if I give him a power of attorney while I'm gone (so he can get stuff done) and I take his (likewise, also a reminder to not do anything nuts), I should be able to matriculate the kid, and do anything that would require his consent. Should I be thinking about some other documentation? [a lawyer friend advised me that along with the POA we both make a public sworn declaration about him accepting that FC is going to study for a period of one year, so that he can't accuse me of fleeing with the kid, which is a big deal here after the Sean Whatsisname case.]

Yesterday was really, really bad, and my heart breaks for FC. When I was 12 my parents separated (for work purposes, although nobody TOLD ME, which seems awfully weird now that i look back on it....) for a few months and it really wrecked me [even though my father was abusive, i should have been dancing in the street]. That is nothing though compared with MrT's reasons for wanting to be apart- I'm too demanding, FC is too hard to parent, and he can't be bothered. It broke my heart to see her, just a few hours after hearing this (he said it in front of her), nattering away at him as they watched TV, trying to get some response, and him just ignoring her as usual. She's a kid, not an employee.

Anyway, I'm not sure when all this will play out. FC's passport is expired, OF forking COURSE, and it will be at least 2 months so i don't think i can get her up into school in the US for September. Her school here may not let her withdraw without penalties, so we may have to wait til the term ends in December. I'm hoping the district would let her start in January.So then of course there's the specter of having to stay here til December. in the same house.

Knowing him, after all this at the last minute he'll refuse to give consent or the POA. If that happens I have the nuclear option, but i hate to think about that. Ugh. One moment at a time.

I'm simultaneously relieved and terrified. Money has been tight, it will be even worse living in Podunk with no real job, mooching off my mother. And then will need to decide what to do. Someone tell me this is going to be OK?

I am sorry this is happening but it is true, you can't force someone to be a parent. When I was 6, my parents divorced due to my father's repeated cheating and we had no money. We had just moved (to be closer to my mom's family) and my mom didn't have a job and not much work experience as she had been a military wife, taking care of me mostly and doing some babysitting on the side. My father also didn't give us money (many years later, his wages were garnished for $150/month). I saw him maybe 10 times from the age of 6 to 18 as he totally checked out as a parent.

Anyway, I think right now it will be tough but things will get better. I also don't know why a school wouldn't let you enroll mid-semester? Obviously you have the passport issue to work out but at that point, I'd just leave. I know this is tough for you. I also don't know if you really have to have both parents consent to enroll her in school but that may be something you can try to work ahead of time by contacting the school district in NJ?

I wish you the best and hopefully things will work out for the best, whatever that may be.

_________________You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.

First, a ton of hugs. I hear how your heart breaks for FC, and the way she is being treated by her Dad, whom she adores. And I know that even though things are tough now, you and Mr. T have been through so much together and have a really deep bond, and that part must be hard too <3

Second, just fyi, I believe the legal standard for removing a child without it being a spousal kidnapping if (1) you have your co-parent's consent to remove the child from Brazil and (2) your co-parent has the right to visit FC at any time. You can check with the State Department, and they should confirm that. So basically, your PoA should include an intro clause stipulating that both conditions are met. I'd put in that visitation is subject to reasonable notice - ie he has to give you a day or two to arrange her schedule. And of course, the presumption would be that you had consent etc, and the burden of proof would be on Mr. T to prove that it was a spousal kidnapping, which is a pretty difficult showing to make (the case you allude to had pretty extreme facts).

And people move all the time, and their kids enroll in school mid-semester, otherwise the vast majority of Americans could only move or change jobs in the summer :)

You know you can do this. You are one of the smartest and most resilient, resourceful people I know! If you come to NJ, I'd be honored to be part of your support system. Which of course means hanging out and going to Lula's and having pancakes.

((((((((((((((((((((((Torque and FC)))))))))))))))))))))

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Second, just fyi, I believe the legal standard for removing a child without it being a spousal kidnapping if (1) you have your co-parent's consent to remove the child from Brazil

yes, just for us to get on a plane or even an interstate bus there is a huge local load of documentation (sworn affadavit that Mr T allows me to travel with her and/or visit to the local Minors' Judge [family court equiv] to swear it in front of the judge.). The Federal Police are constantly changing the forms too.

And yes, the Goldman case was totally off the wall, but the irrational takeaway here was, foreign parent? Must be stealing Brazilian kids, so hang em all. I mean I can't blame them making sure parents have consent, and am fine with it, until Mr T decides he ain't gonna sign. >hyperventilating<

Ah, I see your point, that you're concerned about Brazil, not the US. Sorry things are completely obstacular there.

Its so funny that that was the take-away from the Goldman case in Brazil, because there the Brazilian parent was the one who took the US-born child and then remarried and had her new spouse adopt the child (terminating the bio-dad's rights without allowing him any representation). And he only really had a shot at getting his son back once the mother had actually died. So yeah, the take-away here was that it is freaking hard to get your kid back from a foreign parent that takes your kid and flees the jurisdiction.... Which I guess is what the Brazilian authorities are responding to - ignoring that they were the authorities who made it so hard for Goldman, not the other way around.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Its so funny that that was the take-away from the Goldman case in Brazil...

yeah, there are so many factors that made this case an absolute mockery, not sure how much was clear up in your hemisphere...-the mom had clearly kidnapped the kid, and actively hid him from the father, who was dogged in searching for him-the person who filed for the adoption had supposedly only even known the kid for a few months and in interviews seemed to not even know shiitake about the kid-and wasn't biological, where in BR the bio parent 99% of the time wins custody over a non-bio one-the bio mom came from a very rich and prominent family and "money was spent" openly on the outcome of the case-- the grandparents more or less openly admitted to paying people to march on Ipanema beach in protest when some US politician was here, but it was clear that there were political contributions here too, which is common here, i suppose-the adoptive stepfather was a family lawyer specialized in international custody stuff, if i recall correctly, yet even when the BR court ordered custody to the father, he refused to surrender the boy in clear treaty violation...-when they released the transcripts of the psych evaluations and the psych was clearly, clearly leading the kid.

But here things are mostly taken the way people are led to take them. (sheeple here, sheeple there). Most people see a rich, glamorous person on TV, they assume that they must be right. And the Great Homeland posturing is just as powerful here as in the US, and it often comes down to just that issue alone, and I think that's a big part of it.

Torque, you have an awful lot to deal with. Though I have been agonizing over my situation lately it really is quite straighforward.

Thank you all for your input - it was helpful, especially jp's perspective. My friends were, of course, super helpful as well and of course they know a lot of the back history that you don't. One friend said her dad told her it was her fault they never had a realtionship after he left, when she was 16, and she is still hurt and disgusted by that.

She also said that maybe it is good for them to not have much contact with him right now, and that stuck with me. I wanted to be accomodating, to make it known that I was not interfering in any way with him seeing the kids, when maybe it will be good for them to be away from him for a while.

I am just letting it ride for now, until the fall when I plan to get a separation agreement drafted. I still don't know where he lives but if it gets to September and he has not sent me his address I will email him for it.

Making that decision and realizing that it may be best for the kids, instead of accepting his behaviour and trying not to be po'd about it, has given me a great sense of peace.

I am finally considering myself single. I said it in my head many months ago. I am tired of the person that I had children with. I am not going to go through the details as they are pretty nasty, but I am (sort of) free.. The problem is that he won't leave our home! Not until he has some money saved up tp get a new place. Problem is he has known this for MONTHS. Instead he chooses to spend his money on x,y,z. Not savings. No way. Because he knows with the meagre money that I have, I will pay all the bills. What really makes me angry, is that I have been begging my parents to let my 3 children and I stay in one of their apartments. Their house is huge and divided into 4 separate apartments. Someone who is like a little brother is staying in one, and that's it. They are not letting us stay in their house! Instead, my mother keeps calling me to apply for this co-op and that co-op and she'll be the guarantor. I want to start my life over. I have no money. I want to start saving so I can have a normal life again. Not start out single and having to pay all these huge bills. I would of course pay rent to my parents, but I live in a pretty expensive city, co-op or not (I already live in one but it's $$$). I couldn't ever imagine not helping out my daughter in her most desperate moment in life. I have never called my parents crying for help-until this past weekend. I'm 33 and a pretty tough woman..

(((((Hugs mamatafari)))))) That all sounds so rough, and I hope you find a way to land on your feet soon and have your ex move out without any drama.

And I know you know this, but you definitely shouldn't be the only one paying the bills. If he has a regular job, it should be straightforward to garnish his wages once you get an order of support. If he works for himself or gets paid under the table, it gets more complicated...

I hope you're able to get legal help to manage this and get the most support you can for yourself and your beautiful children.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Hey Tofulish. Thanks for the support. I'm actually reaching out to people for the first time really about this relationship, and I am feeling so good about my decision! I can't wait to really be living on our own :) That's going to be exciting!

Not to get into it too much, but I would not get his pay garnished. He pays what he can right now, and always has money for whatever is needed. Because he is on leave from work at the moment (until next week), he's only getting a slight percentage of his regular pay. Which is when he said he was going to be able to start saving $$ to move. It's fine. I get it. I just want to get out from months ago!! I am being bumped up to the top of a housing wait list, and for that I am extremely grateful.I still can't believe my mother is refusing to allow us to move into their house. Into a TOTALLY SEPARATE apartment. Who rejects their children in time of need? Even my children were asking if we could move there (they know we're moving). GRR!

Single parents, how do you work out new relationships? Not that I am wanting one yet, but I do finally feel like I can call myself single out loud (after having thought it in my head since about the end of last year). I had met someone a few months ago (vegan pride parade here of all places-but met because of a funny situation not a oh you're cute thing), and his face randomly popped up in a fb thing. Messaged him to see if it was the person I'd met, and after messaging back and forth, I realized I should let him know I was single so he didn't think I was flirting behind someone's back. His response "that's good to know," and he'd love to get together. Hmmm.. That's not so easy with 3 children 5 and under, and I was thinking about it. I really don't want people in my house. Well not 'people,' but men I'm not super good friends with.. And eventually even to have some bedroom fun once in a while? I'm still nursing and co-sleeping!! Things I've been thinking about. Even though I am not at ALLLLLLL interested in even thinking about a relationship with anyone else these days.

Sending you tons of good thoughts mamatafari! Sorry your mother isn't being helpful, but it sounds like you're being very resourceful, even without her and getting stuff done!

And how exciting to be thinking about new relationships. I have no advice, but it definitely seems like a tough area - women are under so much pressure to not bring a new man into the house unless he's absolutely Mr. Right. But I think that kids are more resilient than we give them credit for and if you bring someone around, you can manage it in a way that works for you and your family and housing situation - whether that is seeing your new dude when the kids are visiting your family or your soontobeex, having him leave before they get up, etc.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

We are still living under one roof. As I mentioned a while ago, all the $$ I saved to file and move out got spent fixing my car a couple of months ago. I was devastated. Then I had my breakdown, so now I've just focused on getting better.

Something I've decided to do is let Vince have full physical custody. We're going joint legal, but with my year of mental health issues, it really is the best thing for the children. I know some people might look down on me for this, and I've had some people-(not here, thank goodness) get vocal about "fighting for the kids." I have no fight in me, and I really don't want a fight and court room battle. I don't want my mental illness discussed out in the open. I want my kids to be happy. I want to have the space I need to take care of myself so I can be a good parent when I have them.

This is not the way I imagined things working out, but this is the way it will be. He might not be the best spouse, but he is a good dad. For now, I'm back to square one, saving my money so I can file and move out. I'm frustrated because my housing options are limited and public housing doesn't take into consideration child support, which I'll be paying. So I don't really know what I'm going to do. I have a goal to be out by my birthday in 2013--February.

I am so sorry Jewy. I don't think anyone is going to look down on you for your decisions. You're a great parent and you've always done what is best for Fini and Blasto. And anyone who doesn't see that, doesn't know you, so who cares what they think.

That said, it sounds like you have to wait to file till Feb 2013 anyway and by then you'll have some money saved up, some recovery time under your belt and until then you'll be living together with the kids, and the whole picture could look radically different. Given that, I wouldn't fix anything in stone just yet, if I didn't have to.

I am sending you tons of Wookie love. I've been following your blog, and was superhappy to see that your appetite is back. Sounds like a good sign of your convalescence. Big hugs Wookiemama!

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Thanks, 'Fulish. I know time is on my side and whatever happens, happens. As it stands, we are on a schedule where we work opposite shifts so we never see each other which has been kind of nice. We've also worked out a way where we switch every other weekend with parenting so the other parent can get out and do what they want. We're good roommates, it is still kind of weird to be under one roof.

Ha ha I freaked someone out (a man) after he realized that my life is a bit intense. He really was ok with the 3 children and all, but then saw what it is currently like with their father. He'd rather I call him when things are more stable. I know it's intense. But I would really like to flirt with someone else, have some fun, and well enjoy my social life again..

Looks like we're going to be practicing bird nest parenting for a while. I initially suggested this when we were first discussing divorce, only to get shot down. Now he's gunning for it and acting like it is his idea. Go figure.

How it works is this: we all live under one roof. He watches kids while I work and vice versa. We each get every other weekend. On the weekends off, we are responsible for being out of the house so the other parent can fly solo. Benefit is no one has to move, and there's always a parent in the house for the kids. This is a temporary deal though, and I hope to have my own place in the next year or so. So far it is working out well. Funny how we get along better now that we know the marriage is over.

hehe. i'm glad to hear that it sounds like you've moved to a position of relief, now that it's all out in the open. I've been thinking of you, and glad you get to spend as much time as possible with the kiddos for the time being.big hugs, wookiecakes