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Topic: Ethnicity and the Church (Read 25696 times)

Aristibule,You may have provided your definitions of 'mafia' and 'cult-like' behavior, but those words in general use conjure up highly charged negative, mostly violent images to most folks. Perhaps you can find some other terms with which to express your opinions. Two Antiochians going at it like this..tsk, tsk...

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Among the Africans in America (African Americans as people say) are Americas first and only Christian Martyrs.

These were people from along time ago 250 years ago to 75 years ago that lost their lives for saying the word Jesus and was caught. Their are those that were beaten to death for being caught praying to Christ. Even worse are those who had their eyes, either burned out, goawged out, or pierced through and later shot dead for being found reading a bible.....These are Americas first and only martyrs for Christ and to this day no one even recognise that they existed. To me they are Saints. May God bless their souls...Amen

Greetings Fr Dcn Amde,Thank you for entering into this thread. I find it fascinating and more than a little troubling that even today, a discussion of "Ethnicity" by Orthodox Americans takes 3 months before the deep, unhealed wound of our colonialist slavetrading system is even mentioned. The prosperity of this nation could not have occured without this human travesty. The social effects of it are with us today. Yet people seem to be blind to it and comfort themselves with a fantasy that everything's ok! And on top of that, the influx of converts running from crumbling western christian churches, many whose history is tied in with the enslavers, among other things are concerned with making sure that the music of the church is pleasing to their "white" aesthetic! Wow.

In response to your quote above, I want to direct you towards this Serbian Orthodox site so you know that you are not the only one who recognizes the sainthood of the enslaved Ethiopians taken to America against their will:http://www.stmaryofegypt.net/aapb.shtml

I hope you find that article and other information on that site encouraging.

I often wonder why the Ethiopian Orthodox Church does not take a more active role in healing the wounds and helping to restore the African roots identity of "black" americans and the worldwide diaspora. Perhaps it is and I dont see it from my limited perspective. Why is it that a church that is the largest, or perhaps the 2nd largest orthodox church next to the Russians has only one active person on this forum? Please dont take my question as criticism and judgement, I am curious. I know that the nation of Ethiopia suffers greatly from poverty and AIDS. So my best guess is that Ethiopians have bigger issues to tackle than religious and cultural education - both of which are luxuries.

Also, I should mention that I really don't understand what "race" is anymore. The more I read about the history of man, I have come to see the concept of "race" as an invention of groups of men who's underlying purpose was to at best separate people from one another and at worst, to justify domination of other groups of men. I see one human race that through family migrations over history has resulted in a variety of features. But there is only one race of "human beings". The "white" man is in the loins of the "black" man and vice versa.

Love in Christ

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"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965

Aristibule,You may have provided your definitions of 'mafia' and 'cult-like' behavior, but those words in general use conjure up highly charged negative, mostly violent images to most folks. Perhaps you can find some other terms with which to express your opinions. Two Antiochians going at it like this..tsk, tsk...

Actually, he provided very COMMON definitions used colloquially and explained them well.

If I'm at the office, take candy from another department's candy dish and then refer to myself in front of another coworker as a sugar whore. Does that mean I frequently engage in sex with random people? NO! It means I have those aspects of a whore - desiring something unapproved of or in a degrading manner something that I can't control myself in taking.

It's not Aristibule's fault that Tamara can't disassociate her precise definition of the term and it think about it in a more general sense per my example above.

Actually, he provided very COMMON definitions used colloquially and explained them well.

{Irrelevant example removed}

It's not Aristibule's fault that Tamara can't disassociate her precise definition of the term and it think about it in a more general sense per my example above.

You know, Elisha, old buddy, that's now two things we disagree over in this thread. I guess I can use the term "White Mafia" from now on and everyone will know exactly what I mean? Frankly, I could have earlier given into temptation and asserted that WRO is merely a device to make Orthodoxy palpable for the ACCC= the Anglo Country Club Cult- but I still won't do that as I would malign too many good people whom I do not know and might not, probably not, be correct.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Tamara, it is Aristibule - and it is well known that it is indeed my name, and not a screen name - I've never been anonymous on the net. His Grace Bishop BASIL knows me by that name, as do many Antiochian clergy and laity. Antiochian parishes where they know me (or at least, some know me) include: St. Antony's Tulsa OK, St. Elijah's OKC OK, Holy Apostles Norman OK, St James Stillwater OK, St. George Cathedral Wichita KS, St. Michael's Dothan AL, St. George's Richmond Hills ONT. Not a few in the AWRV know me as well. I'm sure you could find folk to 'give you dirt' if that is what you are after. If you've paid attention - you'll know who I am, I've covered them before. In fact, many other posters here know - many know me in person. I'm not going to go through an autobiography, as that isn't the question. Some things I won't disclose - I do work in law enforcement, but I will not disclose where I work or what exactly I do for professional reasons.

I wasn't looking for dirt on you. You accused me of being anonymous so I wanted to be upfront about who I am and I wanted you to know what churches I have been affliated with so you could see I am not trying to hide anything. I don't have anything to fear. But it seems you still do because you assume 'Aristibule' is so well known there should be no question about who you are. I googled your name and discovered you are using your middle name as your moniker.

You were the one who brought up the point about a Lebanese Mafia in Detroit so you weren't just using the word as a euphemism. You believe there is a real mafia because of what one archdeacon shared with you. Just read what you wrote below:

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Again and again, it isn't about 'Arab mafia' in churches either (though, as I've said, that does exist - ask around at St. Antony's in Tulsa, OK - where I believe Elisha has also been? Go to Detroit!) The original claim is that 'mafia like' behavior exists in many Orthodox jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. Your reaction, however, is based on a skewed perception of what mafia means - and your personal experience has *nothing* to do with the validity or invalidity of such a social process in that part of the Church. It is the same way that Southerners can participate in aspects of their culture, and have no clue about its origins, implications, etc. - because one doesn't 'learn it out of a book' (except a few of us that get to 'step outside' and see the 'Big Picture'.) Mafia behavior does not mean participating in criminal activity - get it? It does mean a way of doing things that is a minority self-defense mechanism, with many shared characteristics across Mediterranean cultures (una faza, una raza), and that it causes plenty of cross-cultural stress (which, I believe, is what Elisha was trying to say with Fr. Joseph Honeycutt's article - which is true, as I fit the bill with his description.) BTW - you said 'mafioso Arabs', I never did.

And whether you want to admit to it or not....if you asked the average American what words they associate with the word mafia, the first words most would come up with would be criminals, hit man, gangsters. Even using the word as a descriptive leaves one with the sense that there isn't something quite legitimate with the way the ethnic Orthodox do business. I would agree that ethnic Orthodox people do not always do things the same way a western Orthodox Christian may do things but what you are suggesting is that the ethnic way is inferior to the way western Christians operate. In other words, if the ethnic Orthodox do not change their way of relating to one another to suit your ideas of what is proper then they are failing according to western notions of how to do things. Your opinions are subjective according to your own western cultural bias.

And when you wrote this paragraph it finally became clear to me how you view ethnic Orthodox:

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Part of this is about what many of us don't think ethnic Orthodox ever realize: that we converts also have the importance of family, friendship, and except for those who take Orthodoxy as a cult - aren't going to just give up on all the relationships we've had. Part of that as well is the convert's hope - that he'll see his family and friends converted (even, god willing, his home church, diocese/district, or denomination!) As such, dysfunctional behavior, or even just behavior outside of the context of our culture, can often become a serious stumbling block. It's hard to talk your drowning parents out of the water when it looks like some of the people in the boat are ready to eat them ... they'll take their chances treading water, in that case (and many of us have been told just as much.)

Don't you share the eucharistic cup with these people who look like they could eat you? Wow! Believe me there is dysfunctional behavior all around and not just among the ethnic Orthodox. Don't you see how this statement of your's could be seen as racist or xenophobic when viewed from an ethnic Orthodox perspective?

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As for scandals - the affair surrounding the former Bishop of the Midwest was also a scandal. If you aren't aware of it, however, I see no reason to make you aware of it - only that there are scandals more than you know. (Scandals, of course, are anything that causes controversy, that is - any actions or words which are the occasion for others to sin - the Antiochian Archdiocese is no stranger to controversy, and I'm sure folk in other jurisdictions would be more than glad to talk about that. My point, however, was never specifically about the Antiochian Archdiocese, but about all of the jurisdictions.) And yes - every little bit helps, even on a forum - you have no idea the folk who might read a forum (yes, even bishops). And yes, one can change people - at the worst it is called 'social engineering' or 'applie anthropology' - and you've engaged in it as well, everytime you have written an argumentative post. As for looking in myself - I do, on every post, and every post *has* been about myself. None of it, however, is about passing judgment on others (though, I fear, you have judged me - hence the need for my responses to your misperceptions about everything I write about.)

I was aware of this scandal but Met. PHILIP handled it very quickly and he did a great job of taking the bishop out of office and making him deal with the consequences of his crime. Every church, regardless of the denomination has had scandals with sexual predators. My point is all types of scandals can be found in ALL churches not because of dysfunctional ethnicity as you seem to imply but because of fallen human nature. In other words, these scandals are not unique to Orthodoxy. Anyone who keeps up with the latest news knows this to be true.

Elisha, et al - no, I'm not AWRV... though I support their work, and commune in their parishes. Yes, I am in ROCOR's Western Rite. Am I Antiochian? Yes - still in good standing, commune there, sometimes protopsaltai, still get Al Kalimat/The WORD - it is where I was chrismated (under direction from my spiritual father in ROCOR WRITE.) For that matter - I've found out that my name is on lists of five different jurisdictions as 'members' of missions or parishes. (You know how we Orthodox like to talk.) So, yes - Antiochian, yes ROCOR, yes Western Rite, but no - not AWRV.

Aristokles - thanks for holding back the temptation to make such a statement. Things are only funny if there is truth to them, and there is *No Truth* whatsover in an idea like 'ACCC'. For that matter - I've never even been in a country club (though I've applied to work at a few - and never got called back, of course.)

You accused me of being anonymous so I wanted to be upfront about who I am and I wanted you to know what churches I have been affliated with so you could see I am not trying to hide anything. ... I googled your name and discovered you are using your middle name as your moniker.

Actually, I'd suggest you remove your personal information if at all possible from the web - again, I work in Law Enforcement. Yes, I use my baptismal name as a middle name when I sign in full, but I also normally go by that 'Middle Name'. And yes, I'm about the only person in the English speaking world who goes by that name - it has never been 'anonymous'. My own comments about your anonymity were not to prompt 'disclosure' on your part, but to illustrate that I find your protests to be naive. I personally know (and am friends with) the Lebanese Orthodox who claim both mafia connections, and admit to mafia-like behavior. They know me - again, I don't know you in person. Part of that was also to illustrate that you've made a habit out of reacting to my posts rather than responding to them.

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You were the one who brought up the point about a Lebanese Mafia in Detroit so you weren't just using the word as a euphemism.

And again - you are confusing two separate arguments: that there are Lebanese Orthodox mafia, and (the quite seperate issue) that the Antiochian Archdiocese, like some/many other Orthodox and Catholic jurisdictions, operates much like a mafia.

You believe there is a real mafia because of what one archdeacon shared with you. Just read what you wrote below:

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And whether you want to admit to it or not....if you asked the average American what words they associate with the word mafia, the first words most would come up with would be criminals, hit man, gangsters.

No - that's all your personal interpretation. Most converts actually like the romanticism and exoticism that 'mafia' entails - its why the 'I've got family in the mafia' thing is so common. It helps people feel special, part of something, etc.

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And when you wrote this paragraph it finally became clear to me how you view ethnic Orthodox:

No - I was describing the situation from other peoples perspective. You have illustrated, however, that you will attempt to attribute evil to me no matter what I do write. So, you're just flat wrong.

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I was aware of this scandal but Met. PHILIP handled it very quickly and he did a great job of taking the bishop out of office and making him deal with the consequences of his crime. Every church, regardless of the denomination has had scandals with sexual predators. My point is all types of scandals can be found in ALL churches not because of dysfunctional ethnicity as you seem to imply but because of fallen human nature. In other words, these scandals are not unique to Orthodoxy. Anyone who keeps up with the latest news knows this to be true.

I agree with all of the above, because - I wrote it first elsewhere. Again - you are transfering your 'boogeyman' onto me in an attempt to demonize me, which is absurd - because you believe *exactly* the same as I do (with one exception, it seems, I don't discount one jurisdiction or ethnic group from fallability.) That - and the wrong way to handle scandals (and invite them) is to pretend they won't happen again.

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"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866

It explains why some folk look for labels, and try to 'pin down' laymen as 'property' of 'jurisdictions' - so one can discount them for being 'Antiochian', 'ROCOR', 'OCA, 'Greek'. IOW - it explains *nothing*. I, like many others, am a faithful Orthodox Christian - jurisdictions rise and fall (and, good riddance to the idea of 'jurisdictions' when that day comes.)

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"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866

Nah, I don't assume anything....but maybe the OCA-DOW is the best for 'White' Amercians.

Yes, which I've heard before - in my experience, however, I've not found the OCA to be best, welcoming, or all-that American (even in DOW or DOS). Sure, it works for some folk - but I take issue with those who want to make OCA (or any other group) a 'one size fits all' solution, and wipe out every other tradition for their own.

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Uhhhh.....nope. Never been to Oklahoma..

Ah - apologies then, I've conflated you with another Elisha who is also OCA-DOW, converted at ORU years ago through St. Antony's, and tends to be very critical of the Antiochians.)

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(where I go by the same name - it's my middle name, so I'm not really hiding anything either)

Yes - since I do the same, I assumed with you it was also your proper name (hence my thinking that you were also the other Elisha). Same as many other participants here, and elsewhere. I've always gone by my baptismal name since reception into Orthodoxy, and used it publicly for both work and leisure on the net. Its so much easier - as I don't think I could remember a fake moniker, or find one that would be appropriate. There is, of course, a French teenager into anime that goes by Aristobule - some, however, can't tell the difference between an 'o' and an 'i'.

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Yup - no reason. But I would like to add that +PHILLIP handled this QUITE well. I don't know if I've seen a better and more immediate response to an incident of this nature from any other American hierarch.

Yes, and I've always maintained the same. Some people are blessed to have the bishops they have - some aren't (I've been both at various times.) Though, I don't always agree with the 'personality cults' that some have for their own bishops (such as say, DOW. )

Aristokles:

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BTW, in my experience, anyone claiming to be in the mafia most definitely is not.

Yes, it might be true - and maybe I'm credulous (as I wrote before) for believing some who have told me such or similar things. Then again - sometimes they are... in my experience (I take seriously claims about being connected to gangs, mafia, etc. )

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"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866

"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866

there can no longer be a them since everyone is our neighbor and our brother and sister.

According to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Your statement is not exactly correct.

Christ taught that those who 'obey' (not simply believe) God and 'keep' his commandments; "the same is my brother and my sister".

I agree with you in moral principle.

But this is not the teachings of God. WE are brothers and sisters IN Christ through the faith in Him. I am not a brother to anybody. I treat people as I would want to be treated and I stop their.

I was responding to your comment about how you stated that "you were surprised at how inclusive I was (being an Ethiopian) with regard to African Americans and other Africans since the Africans you know Kenyans, Ethiopians, Sudanees etc consider themsleves caucasian" and have no connection with African Americans" (I paraphrased).

I thought you were being divisive. Especially since intelligent people already know that Ethiopians, Kenyans, Sudanees etc are all African and thus are black by western description. For you to share the silliness of the African you know was quite odd. It had no impact on the point other than possibly being divisive.

I personally know (and am friends with) the Lebanese Orthodox who claim both mafia connections, and admit to mafia-like behavior. They know me - again, I don't know you in person. Part of that was also to illustrate that you've made a habit out of reacting to my posts rather than responding to them.

I think you are on the right track when you mentioned you were possibly being credulous in believing your Lebanese friends. Most Arabs I know love to tease, kid, and play jokes on others. I do the same thing (see the thread on women standing in church). A few years ago an Antiochian priest called me up and pretended to be a telemarketer who informed me I had won million dollars from some bogus contest. It was hilarious because he has a heavy Arabic accent so he wasn't fooling anyone. This type of behavior is VERY common among Arabs.

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And again - you are confusing two separate arguments: that there are Lebanese Orthodox mafia, and (the quite seperate issue) that the Antiochian Archdiocese, like some/many other Orthodox and Catholic jurisdictions, operates much like a mafia.

Most of our heirarchs are foreign born. Many of them grew up in countries that were hostile to the faith. They have no concept of what freedom means when they arrive here. Many of them never learn how to adapt to it. What you write here will have no effect on how they conduct business. In time, when we have more American-born hierarchs you will see this heavy-handed form of governance change.

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No - that's all your personal interpretation. Most converts actually like the romanticism and exoticism that 'mafia' entails - its why the 'I've got family in the mafia' thing is so common. It helps people feel special, part of something, etc.

I don't know any converts who believe this way. This is your interpretation of what others think. Where are your qualifications as an authority on how others think?

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No - I was describing the situation from other peoples perspective. You have illustrated, however, that you will attempt to attribute evil to me no matter what I do write. So, you're just flat wrong.

Please take responsiblity for how you word things about ethnic Orthodox people. I am sure other ethnic Orthodox did not like your wording either. The way you write comes across as very condescending.

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I agree with all of the above, because - I wrote it first elsewhere. Again - you are transfering your 'boogeyman' onto me in an attempt to demonize me, which is absurd - because you believe *exactly* the same as I do (with one exception, it seems, I don't discount one jurisdiction or ethnic group from fallability.) That - and the wrong way to handle scandals (and invite them) is to pretend they won't happen again.

I wrote multiple times there are no infalliable ethnic groups, jurisdictions or denominations. Scandals will happen in all places no matter how things are structured. The Episcopalians of America allowed a practicing homosexual to be elected bishop. I can't think of anything more scandalous than that and it happened in a non-Mediterranean, non-oppressive, western, anglo-culture where nobody raises their voices when there is a dispute. There might be a few things westerners could learn from their eastern counterparts.

I think you are on the right track when you mentioned you were possibly being credulous in believing your Lebanese friends. ... This type of behavior is VERY common among Arabs.

I'll consider this in reading what you write.

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I don't know any converts who believe this way. This is your interpretation of what others think. Where are your qualifications as an authority on how others think?

Well - I'll try to explain it to you. It is a process. First, one asks questions (open ended, not rhetorical or with limited expected answers.) One listens to the answers, and then mirrors the answer to clarify if the message received is indeed that intended. If understanding is not reached, one tries again. It also requires reevaluation of the listener's internal conversation. Another help is to hang out with as many converts as possible. And, of course - I think like one, because I am one.

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Please take responsiblity for how you word things about ethnic Orthodox people. I am sure other ethnic Orthodox did not like your wording either. The way you write comes across as very condescending.

Yes, and have you stopped beating your wife? I think the word you are looking for is 'insubordinate' - condescending is rather how I've considered your posts.

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I can't think of anything more scandalous than that and it happened in a non-Mediterranean, non-oppressive, western, anglo-culture where nobody raises their voices when there is a dispute. There might be a few things westerners could learn from their eastern counterparts.

I'll give you a little background then - the events you are describing happened because the TEC is a less than 2 million strong group, out of some 225 million American Christians and 217 million Anglos (noting the two groups overlap) - so, not even 1 percent of Anglo Christians. The reason most of these Anglos are not Episcopalian is due to oppression, persecution, and 'voice-raising' over the past five centuries. The Reformation wasn't a 'gentelman's agreement', and neither were the circumstances that produced Non-Conformist groups (whether Anabaptist, Quaker, Brethren, Presbyterian, Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc.) It isn't a question of 'learning from others' - of course, I've met that one before... when I was told I could learn the 'Orthodox phronema' and 'how to live as an Eastern Orthodox' by ..... spending my time with Maronites.

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"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866

Well - I'll try to explain it to you. It is a process. First, one asks questions (open ended, not rhetorical or with limited expected answers.) One listens to the answers, and then mirrors the answer to clarify if the message received is indeed that intended. If understanding is not reached, one tries again. It also requires reevaluation of the listener's internal conversation. Another help is to hang out with as many converts as possible. And, of course - I think like one, because I am one.

You try to sound authoritative but you aren't convincing me.

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I think the word you are looking for is 'insubordinate' - condescending is rather how I've considered your posts.

I will agree with the 'insubordinate' description because it implies divisiveness but I still think you are condescending in tone (ie: your description of ethnic Orthodox people looking like they are going to eat you...or in another thread you made a comment about bringing in hospital beds for the elderly ethnic Orthodox who can't stand in church.)

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I'll give you a little background then - the events you are describing happened because the TEC is a less than 2 million strong group, out of some 225 million American Christians and 217 million Anglos (noting the two groups overlap) - so, not even 1 percent of Anglo Christians. The reason most of these Anglos are not Episcopalian is due to oppression, persecution, and 'voice-raising' over the past five centuries. The Reformation wasn't a 'gentelman's agreement', and neither were the circumstances that produced Non-Conformist groups (whether Anabaptist, Quaker, Brethren, Presbyterian, Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc.) It isn't a question of 'learning from others' - of course, I've met that one before... when I was told I could learn the 'Orthodox phronema' and 'how to live as an Eastern Orthodox' by ..... spending my time with Maronites.

The Orthodox jurisdictions are much smaller than the TEC but we haven't fallen into this type of scandal. And don't forget our jurisdictions are full of those ethnic Orthodox who are culturally deficient. We still haven't learned the ways of our superior western counterparts. Just remember, there was nothing gentlemanly about the slap Arius received from St. Nicholas of Myra but then maybe you would chalk that up to mafia behavior?

217 million based upon the 2001 census of 'White' Americans with English as their only language: Anglos. 'Anglo' might mean something else in Australia, but in America 'Anglo' doesn't mean 'pure Anglo-Saxon', it means a person for whom English is their native tongue, and is of European ancestry. For the next largest culture in the US (Hispanic), 'Anglo' means basically the same thing: a non-Spanish speaking 'White' person.

You try to sound authoritative but you aren't convincing me. ... I will agree with the 'insubordinate' description because it implies divisiveness but I still think you are condescending in tone (ie: your description of ethnic Orthodox people looking like they are going to eat you...or in another thread you made a comment about bringing in hospital beds for the elderly ethnic Orthodox who can't stand in church.)

Yes, O Master, but - Do You Still Beat Your Wife? (Of course - and again, it wasn't 'my description' of 'ethnic Orthodox people', anymore than Shakespeare was actually Iago. And - it is your own prejudice and bigotry that inserted 'elderly ethnic Orthodox' to my joke about beds. Not only do you seem to lack a sense of humor, but seem also to be fixated on hatred of 'White'/'American'/'Anglo' ... and especially me, the 'insubordinate' convert Cherokee... sorry I can't grovel, I won't and can't.)

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The Orthodox jurisdictions are much smaller than the TEC but we haven't fallen into this type of scandal. ... We still haven't learned the ways of our superior western counterparts.

I'm still trying to figure out why you think the example of the TEC matters one bit. I've never been in the TEC, most Americans have never been in the TEC. Even the Anglican Communion has *never* had the majority of Christians, inside or outside the UK. Non-Conformists only grew from the point where they broke with Rome. Yet - yes Orthodox jurisdictions have had such scandals. There are homosexual Orthodox bishops. And, again... 'superior western counterparts'? No one said that but you...

« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 12:23:35 PM by Aristibule »

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"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866