From the Dzogchen POV the performance of Ati Guruyoga keeps all samayas.

From the Tantric POV samayas can/cannot be returned, but either way there is an anxiety about dropping the practice commitments.

It is not possible to simultaneously practice from both Points of View.

The conclusion I draw then is that from a Dzogchen POV one may practice Vajrayana etc. but it is not necessary and may actually confuse the mind, cause anxiety, and interfere with progress, like trying to ride two horses at once, unless one has great skill.

The choice is not between Vajrayana as taught by some Gurus and Dzogchen as taught by some other Dzogchen teachers- the choice in this case is to regard what CHNNR teaches as reliable or to stick withe the Vajrayana POV of your Vajrayana teacher and not engage with ChNNR if it differs.

Vajrayana is the path of transformation.Dzogchen is the path of self-liberation.Dzogjrayana is the path of transformation of the self-liberation.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

From the Dzogchen POV the performance of Ati Guruyoga keeps all samayas.

From the Tantric POV samayas can/cannot be returned, but either way there is an anxiety about dropping the practice commitments.

It is not possible to simultaneously practice from both Points of View.

The conclusion I draw then is that from a Dzogchen POV one may practice Vajrayana etc. but it is not necessary and may actually confuse the mind, cause anxiety, and interfere with progress, like trying to ride two horses at once, unless one has great skill.

The choice is not between Vajrayana as taught by some Gurus and Dzogchen as taught by some other Dzogchen teachers- the choice in this case is to regard what CHNNR teaches as reliable or to stick withe the Vajrayana POV of your Vajrayana teacher and not engage with ChNNR if it differs.

That's my grasp of it as a person examining the same issues.

Actually, the so called Dzogchen POV in this thread is from students of ChNNR, ChNNR himself have not posted anything in this thread. There can also be other Dzogchen Guru's that have other ideas about this. These blanket statements are not exactly helping anyone. In Vajrayana, which actually include Dzogchen, there is a tradition to take these kind of problems with commitments to the Guru you received them from. If that isn't possible you take it to the Guru who you study with presently. If you have no problems with your commitments then you just keep practicing whatever you do and receive Dzogchen or any other teachings that you value.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

From the Dzogchen POV the performance of Ati Guruyoga keeps all samayas.

From the Tantric POV samayas can/cannot be returned, but either way there is an anxiety about dropping the practice commitments.

It is not possible to simultaneously practice from both Points of View.

The conclusion I draw then is that from a Dzogchen POV one may practice Vajrayana etc. but it is not necessary and may actually confuse the mind, cause anxiety, and interfere with progress, like trying to ride two horses at once, unless one has great skill.

The choice is not between Vajrayana as taught by some Gurus and Dzogchen as taught by some other Dzogchen teachers- the choice in this case is to regard what CHNNR teaches as reliable or to stick withe the Vajrayana POV of your Vajrayana teacher and not engage with ChNNR if it differs.

That's my grasp of it as a person examining the same issues.

Actually, the so called Dzogchen POV in this thread is from students of ChNNR, ChNNR himself have not posted anything in this thread. There can also be other Dzogchen Guru's that have other ideas about this. These blanket statements are not exactly helping anyone. In Vajrayana, which actually include Dzogchen, there is a tradition to take these kind of problems with commitments to the Guru you received them from. If that isn't possible you take it to the Guru who you study with presently. If you have no problems with your commitments then you just keep practicing whatever you do and receive Dzogchen or any other teachings that you value.

/magnus

I think we should agree to disagree because there is no end to that discussion ...

ChNNR of course has not posted in this thread, but ChNNR'students base their understanding on what ChNNR told them. As per the quote of Malcom yesterday ...

"For example, those who already have a certain familiarity with Tibetan culture might think that to practice Dzogchen you have to convert to either Buddhism or Bon, because Dzogchen has been spread through these two religious traditions. This shows how limited our way of thinking is."Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 161-166). Kindle Edition.

and when you state "In Vajrayana, which actually include Dzogchen,", it's already biased ... "In Dzogchen, which actually include Vajrayana ..."

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

From the Dzogchen POV the performance of Ati Guruyoga keeps all samayas.

From the Tantric POV samayas can/cannot be returned, but either way there is an anxiety about dropping the practice commitments.

It is not possible to simultaneously practice from both Points of View.

The conclusion I draw then is that from a Dzogchen POV one may practice Vajrayana etc. but it is not necessary and may actually confuse the mind, cause anxiety, and interfere with progress, like trying to ride two horses at once, unless one has great skill.

The choice is not between Vajrayana as taught by some Gurus and Dzogchen as taught by some other Dzogchen teachers- the choice in this case is to regard what CHNNR teaches as reliable or to stick withe the Vajrayana POV of your Vajrayana teacher and not engage with ChNNR if it differs.

That's my grasp of it as a person examining the same issues.

I don't understand how you are drawing any of these conclusions from this thread. It certainly bears no reflection to anything I have posted.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

heart wrote:Actually, the so called Dzogchen POV in this thread is from students of ChNNR, ChNNR himself have not posted anything in this thread.

I am not convinced that what ChNN students are positing here are his actual views, as you and I are both students of ChNN too Magnus, and we have not heard or read these things. . . perhaps they hear what they want to hear? And take great liberties in interpretation?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

heart wrote:Actually, the so called Dzogchen POV in this thread is from students of ChNNR, ChNNR himself have not posted anything in this thread.

I am not convinced that what ChNN students are positing here are his actual views, as you and I are both students of ChNN too Magnus, and we have not heard or read these things. . . perhaps they hear what they want to hear? And take great liberties in interpretation?

WIthin the context ... may I smile to your statement. Anyway, with the noise we make, certainly it will come to Rinpoche's hears.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Well, in this thread we seem to have a view from ChNNR's students, which it seems is supported by quotes.

I myself have heard him teach that the Yanas are not dependent on each other, and that Dzogchen is a complete practice within itself.

I was a little loose in using 'Dzogchen perspective' but did clarify that it related to ChNNR's teachings specifically, as does this thread.

I also clearly stated that it was not about other teachers of Dzogchen nor about the various teachers of Vajrayana, but specific to the anxiety being expressed about using the Guruyoga taught by ChNNR to fulfil samayas people have from their Vajrayana empowerments (Practice Commitments and Vows).

Some posts back I asked for that very very simple clarification, which I'll rephrase here:

1. Practice commitments up to and including HYT.

2. Tantric Vows.

Please could someone be precise about how each of those two Vajrayana elements is satisfied in Dzogchen as presented by ChNNR.

Based on the answers in the thread, I have drawn a few conclusions. I didn't say they were my views, just my stab at trying to grasp what seems like a very slippery eel.

It seems that there are now more disagreements emerging between ChNNR's followers on this thread about what he meant when he taught various things.

I am now concluding that whilst there is clarity in some people's minds about exactly what the relationship is between Vajrayana commitments and the practices taught by ChNNR, other followers seem not to have heard those teachings or they interpret them very differently. This is not at all good to find on a thread where clarity is required.

I'm sure the advice is all well-meaning, but I think the differences in view would have been better on a Dzogchen equivalent of 'Tantra Talk' where an individual poses a question and others respond via PM. At least then only one person is exposed to the differences in views rather than the many people who are probably viewing this thread and wondering what conclusion to draw, other than that ChNNR's followers do not share a clear single POV about his teachings.

From the Dzogchen POV the performance of Ati Guruyoga keeps all samayas.

From the Tantric POV samayas can/cannot be returned, but either way there is an anxiety about dropping the practice commitments.

It is not possible to simultaneously practice from both Points of View.

The conclusion I draw then is that from a Dzogchen POV one may practice Vajrayana etc. but it is not necessary and may actually confuse the mind, cause anxiety, and interfere with progress, like trying to ride two horses at once, unless one has great skill.

The choice is not between Vajrayana as taught by some Gurus and Dzogchen as taught by some other Dzogchen teachers- the choice in this case is to regard what CHNNR teaches as reliable or to stick withe the Vajrayana POV of your Vajrayana teacher and not engage with ChNNR if it differs.

That's my grasp of it as a person examining the same issues.

I don't understand how you are drawing any of these conclusions from this thread. It certainly bears no reflection to anything I have posted.

I too don't understand.

As for the rest...Better than meditating on a hundred thousand deitiesFor ten million kalpasIs to think of one's teacher for a single instant.

... Guru Yoga is the most profound of all paths.

To practice Guru YogaExhausts all defects and perfects all attainments.

Who knows where these quotes are from?

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

From the Dzogchen POV the performance of Ati Guruyoga keeps all samayas.

From the Tantric POV samayas can/cannot be returned, but either way there is an anxiety about dropping the practice commitments.

This I think is Nyingma general POV that GY keeps all samayas. It's definitely not something Norbu Rinpoche invented.

It is not possible to simultaneously practice from both Points of View.

Why not?

The conclusion I draw then is that from a Dzogchen POV one may practice Vajrayana etc. but it is not necessary and may actually confuse the mind, cause anxiety, and interfere with progress, like trying to ride two horses at once, unless one has great skill.

No. I doubt any teacher ever said this nor anyone in this thread. It's sooner the opposite.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

From the Dzogchen POV the performance of Ati Guruyoga keeps all samayas.

From the Tantric POV samayas can/cannot be returned, but either way there is an anxiety about dropping the practice commitments.

This I think is Nyingma general POV that GY keeps all samayas. It's definitely not something Norbu Rinpoche invented.

It is not possible to simultaneously practice from both Points of View.

Why not?

The conclusion I draw then is that from a Dzogchen POV one may practice Vajrayana etc. but it is not necessary and may actually confuse the mind, cause anxiety, and interfere with progress, like trying to ride two horses at once, unless one has great skill.

No. I doubt any teacher ever said this nor anyone in this thread. It's sooner the opposite.

I'll try to explain what I am picking up from this thread in even starker terms and see if there is a clear response. instead of 'I don't know how ou can draw that conclusion' (I paraphrase) it would be good if someone could directly answer the two questions I keep posing.

It's a question of whether the Guruyoga taught by ChNNR satisfies all commitments and samaya with Vajrayana Gurus - the Ati Guruyoga White A, for example, has been commented on as one which does.

Form a Vajrayana POV I must perform my 6 session Yoga of HYT as well as other commitments.

From the ChNNR Dzogchen view I don't need to, as the White A fulfils those commitments.

I don't understand why it is hard for people to see it as a source of potential confusion and anxiety when people are being told they can replace very specific Vajrayana practices (or 'abandon' to use the thread title) when previous Root Gurus may have told them it would be a hugely negative act to do so.

Blue Garuda wrote:I don't understand why it is hard for people to see it as a source of potential confusion and anxiety when people are being told they can replace very specific Vajrayana practices (or 'abandon' to use the thread title) when previous Root Gurus may have told them it would be a hugely negative act to do so.

Previous Gurus did not give you Dzogchen teachings so of course they would think that.

edit: and sorry for continually being dense lol.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

dorje e gabbana wrote:This is the crucial point. I met CNNR first time in 1990 and I always heard and read in his teaching that Guruyoga is a way to find our real state or rigpa. He teaches thatIn this state we can integrate all the different trasmissions and samaya received. But I have never heard from him that sounding A you just automatically enter the rigpa state.Infact many people also after 10 yrs sounds A durign the Guru Yoga , but they have very little confidence about their rigpa state and they honestly say. "I hope it is Rigpa but I am not sure"Other people instead enthusiastically sounds A and also B and C without asking themselves and cheking out if they really are in the rigpa. They think to be in rigpa state but they are very little understanding of dzogchen and nature of mind and they just like sing vajra song playing chod damaru, doing vajra dance IN the late 90's I was in Merigar following a CNNR Norbu teaching and taht morning he was very upset and publicly complained that not even one of his students (included the oldest one) could remain in the contemplation or rigpa state during the short time of a vajra song, without getting distracted. I do not know if throughout the years he changed his mind about this subject noticing some general improvement in the understanding of what rigpa state was between his students.

Just to say that CNNR has never said that sounding A during Guru yoga you automatically experience the rigpa state, as a matter of fact. .

interesting.

so when we saying that GY fulfills ones commitments - do we mean to rest in rigpa or just to do a mechanical White A Guruyoga.

because i cannot rest in rigpa and dont have really idea about it is but i can sound A with visualization. would that be sufficient then?

Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

rai wrote:because i cannot rest in rigpa and dont have really idea about it is but i can sound A with visualization. would that be sufficient then?

It means you understand that the white A and thigle in your heart unifies all your transmissions. Even if you have not yet come to confidence about what rigpa means, since you are trying your best, this is sufficient. If you want to do something more elaborate, you can do an Anu or Mahāyoga style guru yoga ala the short thun or medium thun. It is always up to you.

Blue Garuda wrote:I don't understand why it is hard for people to see it as a source of potential confusion and anxiety when people are being told they can replace very specific Vajrayana practices (or 'abandon' to use the thread title) when previous Root Gurus may have told them it would be a hugely negative act to do so.

Previous Gurus did not give you Dzogchen teachings so of course they would think that.

edit: and sorry for continually being dense lol.

I don't think anyone is being dense. LOL

However, I think that maybe because ChNNR practitioners already understand how to perform Dzogchen in ways which satisfy all samayas, it is maybe hard to see things from the POV of people with Tantric samayas.

Now, a few minutes ago the 'Crystal and the Way of Light' plopped through the letterbox and I noticed straight away that ChNNR had exactly the same issue - poring over long texts and practices for hours to keep his Tantric samayas as he had not yet been given Direct Introduction to the method to satisfy them by 'applying the essentials of practice'. So there is a clear answer from ChNNR himself, and he then goes on to describe his 'Zogqen' path.

In which case, Tantric practice for the Dzogchenpa is not tied to dualistic karmic conditioning, but is of value was a means of interacting with energy, and therefore also not bound by the traditional context of Vajrayana as a progressive activity, much less a pinnacle standing on Mahayana and Hinayana foundations? That's a question, btw, not a statement. LOL

rai wrote:because i cannot rest in rigpa and dont have really idea about it is but i can sound A with visualization. would that be sufficient then?

Malcom answered:Even if you have not yet come to confidence about what rigpa means, since you are trying your best, this is sufficient

Have you any evidence the this is the real CNNR teaching or it comes only from your personal understanding?

Malcom Please provide any proof that CNNR has really stated or written what you have just stated about the fact that trying do to your best even though you are not in rigpa state is enough to keep other tantric samayas.Otherwise your statement is vey dangerous and misleading for people who ask questionsThank you very much

Last edited by dorje e gabbana on Fri May 25, 2012 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

rai wrote:because i cannot rest in rigpa and dont have really idea about it is but i can sound A with visualization. would that be sufficient then?

Malcom answered:Even if you have not yet come to confidence about what rigpa means, since you are trying your best, this is sufficient

Have you any evidence the this is the real CNNR teaching or it comes only from your personal understanding?

Malcom Please provide any proof that CNNR has really stated or written what you have just stated about the fact that trying do to your best even though you are not in rigpa state is enough to keep other tantric samayas.Otherwise your statement is vey dangerous and misleading for people who ask questionsThank you very much

Better ask someone who is firm in his/her views please.

The best, one should be aware during any initation what master is saying about commitments, not what is only the standart. For example one master who gave all 3 inner tantras according to 8 Kagye system once said one should do Vajrasattva practice daily at least 21 times to avoid downfalls, etc. You know, such a system has many vows of 3 inners tantra, very hard to learn. Of course it is the saying: too many masters too - many commitments to integrate.

dorje e gabbana wrote:Malcom Please provide any proof that CNNR has really stated or written what you have just stated about the fact that trying do to your best even though you are not in rigpa state is enough to keep other tantric samayas.

Better ask someone who is firm in his/her views please.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

dorje e gabbana wrote:Malcom Please provide any proof that CNNR has really stated or written what you have just stated about the fact that trying do to your best even though you are not in rigpa state is enough to keep other tantric samayas.

Better ask someone who is firm in his/her views please.

Sönam

Namdrol or Malcolm, whoever is now correct? -excuse me, I wrote it only for everyone here because tantric commitments are not happy-go-lucky things, and not for only this life alone.