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"so its tough not having many people to talk about my worries/thoughts to."

Are you referring about down to earth issues - such as you may have gotten your girlfriend pregnant

or

'Troubling thoughts' such as the type which were catalyst for Christianity in the first place?

The latter isn't entirely 'crazy' but it isn't entirely common either. If you are referring to Cognitive Dissonance, you've just exercised thought enough to realize and understand the problems a few people face concerning reality - and ironically organized religions who vender realities are obviously not respectful of others enough to allow them to work out things on their own.

If this is what you're meaning my suggestions are as follows:

1. Lemons to Lemonade - Look at Rod Serling: Host of and writer for most of the Twilight Zone episodes. Or Kurt Vonnegut - Author of the, at one time banned, book "Breakfast of Champions."

2. Nothing screams 'Protagonist' of the story more when it's left to just us to figure out, eh? Rather than cringe, stand up to and challenge it - You'll eventually master it.

3. Take it all with a grain of salt. If it can't be told to you honestly, don't bother to ever take it seriously until it is finally told honestly and realize that 'crazy' can sometimes be terrifying but when you finally get reigns on it, it can be ingeniously comical and an ongoing barrage of intellectual exercises that will keep your wits sharp and your perceptive and cognitive abilities even sharper.

. . . tththththptptptptptptpttt

Edit: Just realized that if you were referring to 'down to earth' issues the second half of my post probably won't make a bit of sense to anyone here but maybe one or two other people. =P

orcishgamer: It shocks me to no end when I get into these apologist conversations and they're always about.... dun, dun, dun Christianity. Why not Judaism, Gnosticism, Islam, Buddhism, the Cult of Isis, or anything else? All of those could claim credit for every single apology that has been put forth in defense of Christianity in this thread.

So why Christianity?

Ivory&Gold: I'm talking mostly about Christianity because that just happens to be the religion I'm most familiar with and interested in. It is special to me. Isn't that perfectly obvious? I don't know all that much about Islam, for example, and as such treat it as as valid a belief system as any other. Your implied belief that someone arguing for certain values of Christianity automatically means that said someone doesn't allow other religions the same values betrays your own attitudes. It didn't even occur to me before reading that paragraph of yours. I'm not claiming that Christians, or atheists (which, again, I belong to) or Buddhists or whatever are in any way superior. You are.

I simply find it silly that the focus is on Christianity when it mostly has to do with an accident of birth. Had you been born elsewhere some other religion may be "special" to you. All I'm pointing out is that Christianity isn't particularly special as religions go, but if I hear religious apology in the US it is almost always Christianity centric. I've actually heard almost no apology in this entire thread for anything but Christianity. For those so worried about spirituality and the divine don't you think that's weird? Don't you think you're lack of interest in the other divine myths is weird? Doesn't that make you feel like kind of a hypocrite? I mean, I know we can't know everything and all, but you say it's important and then don't seem to spend much time on it. Apologies if that's not true, but your posts lead me to believe it is so (and if so you're typical of western countries, so don't worry too much).

Ivory&Gold: I'm saying that it's the one way of realizing one's spirituality that appeals to me the most. And to many other people I know, who aren't primitive or barbaric either.

I didn't say they were barbaric, I said their belief system was rooted in barbarism and in many ways continues those barbaric traditions. The fact that they act in positive ways is a demonstration of their innate character, and in another context would shine through just the same. Christianity has little to do with it as these people would be good in most contexts.

orcishgamer: I simply find it silly that the focus is on Christianity when it mostly has to do with an accident of birth. Had you been born elsewhere some other religion may be "special" to you.

That's true. However, the same could be said about all love stories. Hadn't you met your wife/husband, you'd have fallen love with and married someone else. Doesn't make it any less special. Or telling your spouse that you love her/him silly.

orcishgamer: All I'm pointing out is that Christianity isn't particularly special as religions go, but if I hear religious apology in the US it is almost always Christianity centric. I've actually heard almost no apology in this entire thread for anything but Christianity. For those so worried about spirituality and the divine don't you think that's weird? Don't you think you're lack of interest in the other divine myths is weird? Doesn't that make you feel like kind of a hypocrite? I mean, I know we can't know everything and all, but you say it's important and then don't seem to spend much time on it. Apologies if that's not true, but your posts lead me to believe it is so (and if so you're typical of western countries, so don't worry too much).

Nothing weird about it, in my opinion. I have a pretty good understanding of Christianity... simply living in a Christian society for almost 30 years does that to you. It feels like home to me. I feel like it might represent a way of nurturing my spirituality that could work for me. I don't have anywhere the same knowledge of and intimacy with any other religion. Like I said in another thread, I assume it would take me decades to develop a similar relationship to a single other religion. For better or worse, Christianity is "my" religion.

And other religions haven't been defended in this thread in the same way, because (a) they haven't been explicitly attacked in the same way, and (b) people probably don't consider themselves well enough equipped to mount a convincing defence of them. I haven't heard you calling Buddhism barbaric for example, and even if you did, while I'd instinctively disagree, I'd not be able to bring anything much concrete to the table. If you look at my posts, you'll find that I mostly talked about religion in general, and sometimes tried to illustrate my point with some Christian imagery, simply because I feel that's the way I can best make myself clear. You then attacked said imagery, at which point it becomes a discussion about Christianity specifically.

Ivory&Gold: I haven't heard you calling Buddhism barbaric for example,

Buddhism isn't exactly a refuge of sanity either, it was frequently used to convince WW2 kamikaze pilots to suicide, for example. I'd have to be feeling extremely kind to even raise those beliefs to the level "antiquated", many are frankly silly and some are barbaric. On a scale of things it's probably not as destructive by its very nature, still not particularly helpful and actively negative in many respects.

I haven't been critical of other religions simply because they're rarely brought up in these discussions (and not much in this thread besides between you and me). There's definitely things about them about which I am critical. If you're curious, his writing could do with some heavy editing, and I don't think every point he makes is good, but Hitchens' book, God Is Not Great addresses a lot of criticisms of the various world religions.

As much as you want to see the good in religions, you've indicated that you aren't a believer, trust me, there's very ego-centric psychological reasons most Christians jump to the defense of only their concept of god (though they're hardly the only group to do this). I don't see why, logically, their god should be treated as "special" when, as monotheists, they've literally out-of-hand discarded, mocked, and regarded as childish 1000s of gods.

Ivory&Gold: I haven't heard you calling Buddhism barbaric for example,

orcishgamer: Buddhism isn't exactly a refuge of sanity either, it was frequently used to convince WW2 kamikaze pilots to suicide, for example. I'd have to be feeling extremely kind to even raise those beliefs to the level "antiquated", many are frankly silly and some are barbaric. On a scale of things it's probably not as destructive by its very nature, still not particularly helpful and actively negative in many respects.

Now I am not buddhist, but my wife is and basicly all he friends are - so i have had pretty good view of how it works in your everyday life. ..please do keep in mind, that there are plenty of different kind of buddhism - Theravada, Mahayana, various sorts of Zen and so on. Also if you are counting together buddhism = kamikaze planes, well do remember that japanese have also their own Shinto belief there as well, which is Emperor focused and explains a lot of things.

...but not like kamikaze fighters were really all that different from any soldier in any particular war, even WW2 allies had their priests consorting the allied soldiers and telling that they were fight against evil and so on. Anyway the idea of killing yourself with the enemy and thus serving your lord (daimyo/shogun/..) is older in japanese tradition than local buddhism.

Also one big feather to buddhis hat: Can you tell me how many wars buddhism has started? Crusades?

Sure there's example big conflict in the southern of Thailand between the muslims and buddhists, but as far as Ive understood that, its not as much about religion - but instead plain good old (geo-) politics and old grudges.

---

Anyway, if someone is interested in buddhism, i would personally recommend to try to read as little "fluff" as possible and instead focus on the more or less real stories of Buddhas life and then some of the more known monks like Ryokan or Dogen for example. And I mean read with open, curious mind - its not necessary, actually its very good NOT to believe in it all - but they are such excellent food for the thought.

I think the core of buddhism has some seriously good points, but then especially all the bigger traditions have accumulated whole lot of all sorts of fluff, which in my opinion dont strictly have anything to do with how Ive understood Buddha. Granted, that isnt too much.