This is what 'honesty' gets you... It's 'okay' to 'come out' and state one wants honest feedback...but only if the reply is what one wants to hear.

One's sexual orientation is of absolutely NO relevance to training. A good maxim: shut up and train. It keeps things focused on what is important for that space and time.

Personally, I don't understand the mindset of individuals that enter a dojo expecting accomodation. One starts at the bottom, with the mindset that probably everyone there has something that one can learn. It's not that one is black/white, male/female, straight/gay, young/old...the point is entering the dojo with 'new eyes' every time. Of being a 'beginner', and having the grace to put one's 'self' aside in order to learn what others MAY be willing to share.

Quote: Right, typical response. I'm sure everyone who doesn't agree with this sort of thing is a homophobe.

No just pretty ignorant. I am sure you don't mean it to be but your comment is in the same vein of saying black people have tails. The Christian right led a heavy propaganda campaign linking aides to gay men. The public bought into it hook line and sinker. Did the disease hit the gay community hard, yes it did but that misfortune was turned into a homophobic rampage. Even when Magic contracted HIV it was assumed he was engaging in homosexual activities.

The facts are, the overwhelming number of people infected with HIV are straight, and the odds of you contracting the virus are so low, it isn't even worth a mention.

By stating your opinion, and I think it's an honest opinion, you simply demonstrate that you have taken a view, with little or no knowledge of the facts.

Quote:Although I don't agree with him, Brian is entitled to his opinion.

Absolutely. And for the record, I haven't called anyone a homophobe myself. It would be pretty hypocritical for me to make that call after putting myself out there as part of an unpopular minority.

If I couldn't handle differences of opinion, I wouldn't have asked about how best to fit in with a larger group. A simple disagreement doesn't constitute prejudice (sending a snotty PM on "what's wrong with homosexuality," however ...?)

In any case, I think that all relevant points have been made in this conversation. I thank everyone who made constructive comments. It's time to wrap this up now.

_________________________
"A body at rest can not be stopped!!" - The Tick

Alright, well as long as we are simply 'stating opinions', I stand by mine: that your statement, Brian, is homophobic and ignorant.

Harlan, as for you, I see no reason to respond to you (beyond this), because, as long as you keep what is written in your profile: "I no longer support this site in any way", I no longer in any way consider you a member of this site.

--Chris

edit: that being said, regarding Brian's comment, I suppose it is just his opinion, and he is entitled to it.

Edited by Ames (01/20/0911:35 AM)

_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."--Basho

Works fine by me...as I don't think my words required any response from you.

And no...I don't support this site. I do, however, support intelligence in Martial arts, my friends (some who are still here)...and newbies to MA who need to hear more than the one-sided ignorance that is perpetuated on most 5th rate forums.

To the OP...good luck in your training. You seem sensible, and intelligent...and with some ability to navigate the BS of internet postings...I'm sure you will do well.

BTW: I have campaigned, unsuccessfully, at this site to have the abuse of PMing addressed. If you feel you are being harassed via PM...contact the administrator.

Quote:

Harlan, as for you, I see no reason to respond to you (beyond this), because, as long as you keep what is written in your profile there ("I no longer support this site in any way), I no longer in any way consider you a member of this site.

Quick personal story regarding sexual orientation & MA training: I trained in a rough Japanese karate school from ages 14-18. Majority student demographic was adolescent and young-adult males. As such, it was an understandably testosterone-rich environment. Dojo-mates develop friendships and with those friendships, the familiarity of relation, and with that, all the vulgar inuendo's about the opposite sex and embelished or fabricated tales of sexual conquest that one would expect from a bunch of healthy young heterosexual males.

Well, I eventually left the dojo and lost touch with everyone, but with the modern miracle of myspace, I've been able to track down some old comrades from those days and have found that a couple of them have come out. Now, I am a straight male. I've never boasted of having exceptional gay-dar, but could however, usually tell if someone was gay or straight even if they didn't where it one there sleeve. Upon learning that some my old friends were in fact gay, I was mildly surprised, but at the same time could look back and well, feel like I guess it now makes sense. Either way, it doesn't change that they were my friends, and although we have seen or spoken in some time, I do miss having them in my life. I think friendship supercedes sexual orientation. It does for me at least.

Regarding Brian's remark about reluctance to make physical contact in training with someone if they were gay, I guess in the heat of the moment (like spirited kumite) it wouldn't be an issue for me; kumite, for example could get quite heavy, so it was always kill or be killed. But if you posed the issue to me after the fact, well, in my heart of hearts, some apprehnsion would honestly creep into the logical part of my brain.

I don't think that makes me a homophobe, and maybe it makes me a hypocrite too, because, I'm no vestal virgin myself. HOooo. Shucks no. But anyway, I guess it can be natural to have reservations about that kind of stuff, and no, you shouldn't have to worry about being demonised for voicing honesty.

So I guess alls I'm sayin' is gay or straight doesn't matter to me in the dojo. Take it or leave it.

My old sensei, however, was a homosexual pedophile and is now in prison, but, that's another story...

Quote: I would not be comfortable training with a homosexual in an environment where we made physical contact. I would also have health concerns.

This makes me curious. Are you saying you would be uncomfortable with the potential sexual element? If so, should men and women not train together if there's going to be physical contact? Should married or otherwise attached MAs eschew groundfighting with MAs of the opposite sex?

Regarding your "health concerns," I used to be a medical librarian, and I've done a tremendous amount of research on this topic. Unless you are breaking the skin of your training partner WITH a part of your body that also has broken skin or mucous membranes, you're really not a risk for contracting HIV. So don't bite or have sex with anyone in your class, and bandage any cuts. Don't become blood brothers with anyone.

You are at risk from contact with anyone's blood, semen, or vaginal secretions, regardless of their sexual orientation, but with reasonable care, you don't have to worry about it much <Note: I'm NOT a doctor, and am NOT giving medical advice. There are a multitude of reputable online resources that can help you better understand HIV transmission.>