(21-11-2014 01:22 PM)TN Skeptic Wrote: So I hope I won't be burned at the stake.

I honestly don't know what my thoughts are. Is that bad? I guess I need to do some more research to work through some things.

Nothing wrong with that at all. You are completely reasonable in not forming an opinion on a matter that you admit you don't know much about. In fact I wish more people were like you.

There are a lot of threads on abortion here on the forum. A lot of people making an uninformed decision that abortion is bad (generally due to misinformation they've received, or for emotional reasons alone - though not always) , while the informed folks try to reason with them using facts and evidence. It's a touchy subject, so obviously the threads get quite long. If I recall correctly, this one has a lot of good arguments/counter arguments on the topic if you decide to do some research

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta

It makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I know I'd want the option open if I was ever stuck with an unwanted kid, so I consider myself "Pro-Choice".

I do think the guy should have some say in whatever happens. Not as much as the "mother", just at least let him put his opinion out there. I'd imagine there'd be at least some cases where a decision would be made a lot easier if you knew someone was or wasn't there for you.

(12-01-2014 05:05 PM)Foxen Wrote: I would simply like to point out that a parasitic bundle of cells is not considered a human, a person, or a baby.

Secondly, murder is illegal. Since abortion is legal, abortion is not murder.

I agree that a clump of cells isn't a human and I agree that abortion is not murder.
I could never really understand the second point though. It doesn't seem logical. I've heard people say this before and I'm not sure if they were being funny or not..

I'm a man. It's not likely that I'll ever have to decide to abort. I would like to discuss it with my wife if it ever came up but I think the choice is ultimately hers. What choice would I make? I guess abortion would be my last choice but it wouldn't be off the table. But as a man it's not really for me to say. My opinion on abortion is largely irrelevant but my opinion on the individuals right to choose what they will do with their own bodies is not.

(12-01-2014 06:22 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote: So since you want to talk about it, I'll bite.

What types of situations would make you feel abortion to the right course of action, Klebs? Some? None? I know a previous member of the church of fathers who is pro-life. Maybe you two should get to know each other. She's an atheist, though. Depending on your response though - she wants to abolish abortion. If a woman is raped, she feels the baby should be carried to term, despite psychological damage done to the mother. Essentially, psychological torture.

There is no situation that would make abortion right. You might convince me of a case where abortion is necessary, but it would not make it right. To me, something being "right" is a moral statement that it is good and provides a benefit. I see no good that can come from abortion.

That's just silly. What does "good" mean? And good for whom? There are lots of moral things to do that are truly selfless acts, which doesn't make it good for the person doing it.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson

I have lost multiple pregnancies. I am trying valiantly to get pregnant and stay pregnant.

This whole life begins at conception is nonsense. If it had any intrinsic value, reproduction would not be done on such a massively wasteful scale.

I'm undergoing IVF. They removed 12 eggs from me and fertilized them all. How many made it to the appropriate stage? 3.

How many made it to successful pregnancies? Zero

In another month or so - I will be doing the entire process again.

To say that each one of these zygotes is alive is just silly. My skin cells are alive, with human DNA, but it is not a person.

And if the pain of the fetus was a factor, then we should immediately stop all vaginal births since the process of compressing the skull bones is painful. Huge amounts of adrenaline surge through its body to combat the stress and pain. The baby does go into distress during birth - which is why there are so many monitors on the baby to monitor for dangerous levels. Before modern medicine - childbirth was a risky proposition for both. Women and child died at alarming rates.

Say nothing of course of the risky proposition that pregnancy places on its host. Preeclampsia, increased risk of stroke, etc., is unethical to force anyone to absorb.

Imagine if men were required to donate their kidney if someone needed it. Regardless of the risk to its owner. That's what you are saying when you say abortion is wrong. That a living breathing person is less valuable than a organized grouping of cells that might not even survive.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson