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The sad bottom line is, by the time he called her Mudblood (indeed, BEFORE he did so), she was itching for a reason to not be his friend any more, whether she knew it or not. Because, had she REALLY WANTED TO KEEP HIM, she would have said then "it's them or me". But it seems like her (other) friends sure did, and she was already done with him before the word ever left his mouth.

Have to disagree. If she was itching to dump him she wouldn't have tried to stop James and Sirius. Perhaps she should have given him a clearer ultimatum but I think she'd tried. In The Princes Tale you see her taking him to task over Mulciber ("What he did to Mary MacDonald was Dark Magic"). She also says "You can't wait to join him can you" referring to Voldemort. I don't know what he'd have done if she'd issued a really clear ultimatum but I guess she didn't because she knew that if she issued an ultimatum then he would issue one somewhere along the lines of "Be my girlfriend or I'll become a Death eater" I don't think his greasy hair had anything to do with her decision to end the friendship. I believe Snape was her refuge at home because Petunia hated her and she had no friends there. I believe she was reluctant to end the friendship but she knew what he was (or was becoming) and knew he wanted more from her than she could give him. He was too clingy.

Clearly, at ten, he didn't have a wand (or he'd have been using it). Clearly, at ten, (or even maybe eleven if they'd already gotten their letters, and it seemed like they had), he didn't have sufficient control over his magic to control that branch from hitting Petunia on the head (otherwise, he would have looked smug, and not scared).

But Snape did have his mums old books and I can't imagine he hadn't looked through them. I don't think we can discard Sirius' words here. I know he hates Snapeand will do anything to present him in a bad light but we can't disregard all his words just to fit a theory.

I am completely failing to see your point here. They started it, he retaliated, it happens, so it's okay?

My point isn't so much to you. Everyone gets very hot under the collar about James/Sirius/Snape and who hexed who. Blah blah all hexes bad etc. My point was that ALL the students at Hogwarts hex each other. We see the Weasley Twins do it again and again. I was however trying to say that I don't think Snape was quite the innocent little victim that people (not neccessarily you) have thought since SWM. Remus says that Snape hexed James as much as possible too and Remus has made his peace with Snape. Remus' error is that he thinks it's all just schoolboy pranks and really doesn't appreciate how much Snape suffered. Of course he'll always be more loyal to Sirius and James but he doesn't bear Snape any ill-will- he says that VERY clearly in HBP. Plus remus trusts Dumbledore's judgement. I also think Snape no longerbears Remus any malice. It is very clear that he saves his life, when his sectumsempra spell hits George he was aiming it at the Death Eater who was trying to kill Remus.

I absolutely despise Ronald Weasley and I think that Ron is just about everything Snape hates: lazy, whiny, a goof-off, disrespectful and unmotivated. So unsurprisingly I'm not seeing eye to eye with you on Snape's reaction toward him

If he hates lazy goof offs then why is he okay with Crabbe and Goyle and indeed Malfoy? Draco's marks at the end of year one were not good- Lucius says so in Bougin and Burkes. Crabbe/ Goyle- okay perhaps they're just so thick that he sees no potential in them but under Amycus they certainly began to excel at something. Yet Snape didn't attack them for being lazy. Also he is awful to Hermione. I know she's an 'insufferable know-it-all' but for crying out loud- surely Snape of all people should be rejoicing in her intelligence. You can't tell me that none of the other students ever 'goofed off'. Was Pansy a model student?

Right I'd love to discuss this all day. You've certainly opened my eyes to parts of Snape's character that I hadn't considered and that has to be a good thing. Mind you I'm still a Marauder fan

She never said to him, "Severus, you are going places I can't follow" or "you need to choose between them (the Death Eaters) and me",

I'm going to speak in Lily's defense here. Maybe she wasn't sure how Severus would choose if she gave him an ultimatium (sorry I can't spell).

As for Severus, he said something that he didn't mean in anger, and was sorry for it but I know that I would have reacted in exactly the same way that Lily did if my best friend said that to me. It would not be easy, but especially since he called other people like me Mudbloods, and Lily says that he did I would certainly be hesitant to forgive him.

If Severus had changed then (i.e. stopped calling people Mudbloods and distanced himself from the other Slytherins) I think that given time Lily may have forgiven him, but I think it more likely that he was so badly hurt that he took it out on Muggleborns every chance he got, and now that he didn't have Lily the Slytherins were all he did have, so he would have tried even harder to fit in (already, in my opinion, difficult enough being a halfblood and a friend of Lily's).

Right to make this about Severus:

Do you agree that he had a difficult time in Slytherin?
Do you think that the Slytherins knew that he was friends with Lily?

Do you agree that he had a difficult time in Slytherin?
Do you think that the Slytherins knew that he was friend with Lily?

I think he would have had a hard time in Slytherin until he started hanging round with Mulciber and Avery. I'm sure being included in something was a major part of his decision to be with them. The reason I don't think he was popular is that he leaves the DADA exam alone. He doesn't hang round waiting for others and there's no-one waiting for him.
There's no-one there to help him when James and Sirius start on him. I think it highly unlikely he was the only Slytherin taking the exam that day so why did no-one from that house come and help? Although I could just be equating unpopularity with being a loner- which isn't always the case. Lily was probably his only real friend which explains why he was so clingy. I'm referring to the bit where he says "You're not going to - I won't let you."

I don't think the Slytherins knew about the depth of his involvement with Lily but maybe they knew that he was friendly with her. This could explain why he wasn't popular.

"There's no evidence that Severus mistreated Lily other than that one time," - from previous post.

Sorry want to come back to this bit. No he may not have mistreated Lily before but she knew he shared the same views as his friends and knew that Mulciber had tried to attack one of her friends. Someone may not mistreat you personally but if you abhor their views it's very difficult to be friends with them. For instance I hate racists although they've never personally done me any harm.

I know that JK has said that Snape's portrait hangs with the others' in the Head Master's office, but I've seen nothing on his funeral, who collected his body or where he is buried. Is there anything in Canon about this part?

After Lily rejected him, Snape develved in deep with the Death Eaters and Voldemort, but he still loved Lily from afar, enough to ask Dumbledore to keep her and her family safe.

What aspect of his personality do think led to him going as deep into the Dark Arts as he did after he lost Lily as a friend? What would have to change for him to try and win her back instead? You know, as a different path in life, what would have to happen to make him decide that Lily's love was more important than respect or power?

After Lily rejected him, Snape develved in deep with the Death Eaters and Voldemort, but he still loved Lily from afar, enough to ask Dumbledore to keep her and her family safe.

What aspect of his personality do think led to him going as deep into the Dark Arts as he did after he lost Lily as a friend? What would have to change for him to try and win her back instead? You know, as a different path in life, what would have to happen to make him decide that Lily's love was more important than respect or power?

If Snape were a Muggle, he'd have listened to Death Metal as a teenager, fantasized about blowing up the school, and then gone and joined a White Power group after he graduated. He was bitter about being picked on, being unrecognized for his genius, being passed over by the pretty girls who preferred the popular boys, and so on. His broken home life contributed to all that. He was defined by bitterness and resentment.

To take a different path, someone would have had to reach out to him and succeed in reaching past all that. Lily tried, but she never quite could, because I think she never realized that he was in love with her. When she started going with James, his biggest tormentor, he snapped.

(I should hasten to add, I do not think Lily had any obligation to try to "fix" Severus.)

Without hope of getting what he wanted from Lily, I think it would have taken someone else willing to be very patient and very persistent about getting through to him in order to turn him from his path. And that's almost impossible to do unless the person wants to change. Think about how hard it is to talk Neo-Nazis or Al Qaida members out of their beliefs.

He felt remorse because he realized Lily was going to die, but it was still a very possessive, selfish kind of remorse -- she was going to be taken away from him. Remember that at first, he didn't care if James and Harry died too.

I wish I had seen this thread a few weeks ago, but here are a few random thoughts. It's late, and I'm kind of babbling, so bear with me.

"What aspect of his personality do think led to him going as deep into the Dark Arts as he did after he lost Lily as a friend? What would have to change for him to try and win her back instead? You know, as a different path in life, what would have to happen to make him decide that Lily's love was more important than respect or power?" (OliveOil_Med)

I think JKR said that he thought that being affiliated with something powerful like the Dark Arts would make him more attractive to Lily. If I remember rightly, she said that he was an insecure person who needed an association with something bigger than himself to make himself feel complete (weird parallel with Peter Pettigrew-- they really have sort of parallel but opposite paths in some ways). I think Severus Snape is more complex than even his creator gives him credit for, though. There's a quote about how he "didn't deserve a Lily" which makes my skin crawl. Lily had many wonderful qualities, but I completely agree with CMWinters about how she was ready to ditch him and was looking for an opportunity. For all the good things about her, she's a pawn to peer pressure. It wasn't her job to fix him, but nonetheless, she's depressingly average in this regard.

The analogy that helps me understand Lily a bit better is that there is a huge and very threatening conflict overshadowing their complex and troubled friendship. Wizarding England in the 1970's has a deeply prejudiced, murderous and power-mad would-be dictator attempting to rise to power. The analogy to Hitler's Germany is so obvious, but on a personal level, this is the equivalent of a Jewish girl whose old friend is getting way too into the Hitler Youth and thinking of joining the SS. It's not just that he's socially awkward and angry and unattractive. But he is, and I think those matter to her as well-- her friends' opinions obviously matter a great deal. The tip-off to me is that in SWM, before the "Mudblood" comment, before she calls him Snivellus and makes that cutting comment about how he should wash his underclothes, before he has insulted her-- she almost smiles when one of the Marauders does something to him. Let me know if I'm wrong, but I think she's about to ready to smile at their doing this interminable series of humiliations even before he calls her a Mudblood. She's not just ready to get rid of him for philosophical reasons-- she's nearly smiling at his enemies treating him like dirt just because he's there. Again, I don't have a copy of the book with me right now, so I apologize if this is incorrect in the timing, but I think it may be correct.

As for what would have to change for him to try and win her back-- I'm in the middle of writing a fic about that, so I've thought about that a lot. Obviously there are many answers. I have a friend who realized at fifteen that he was letting himself fly off the handle and beat up his younger brother just like their abusive dad did to both of them, and something snapped and he made a decision to be different, because he had this epiphany and realized how his life was going to turn out. This was my inspiration-- and I think it's possible-- but there are probably flaws in it, and there are undoubtedly other possibilities as well. We already know that his realization that her life was threatened by them was the ultimate reason that he changed in the canon-- the realization that it was either/or, that he couldn't have both and that she mattered more. If this had happened earlier rather than later, before the relationship with James Potter became set in stone, then maybe Severus would have tried and succeeded in winning her back instead of being in a position of trying to protect her (and/or maybe win her love once her husband and son are out of the way) when it's already too late.

The question of what would happen to the two of them if she did forgive him and go out with him is a really good one. My take on it is that, having lost her once, he would permanently be somewhat terrified of losing her again, and would constantly be watching himself, more than watching her, and fearing that he'd screw up and lose her. As for being jealous and controlling-- I think he would definitely have those tendencies, but I also believe that there is no way he could get her to start going out with him, never mind marry him, if he were like that. Obviously in "The Prince's Tale" she already is fed up with his jealousy of James Potter and the Marauders, so I think she'd have a hair-trigger reaction to that sort of thing. She's also smart enough not to just get sucked into that kind of relationship, and I think she could stand up for herself-- she certainly stands up for herself to him in the canon. I don't think she'd go out with him if he was obviously jealous of James, the Marauders, or other guys in general. That having been said, I think he'd still worry about other men and losing her to someone else, and that the jealousy would be one more thing that he'd keep to himself for fear of losing her. I don't think it would be a perfect relationship by any means-- probably much more fraught than she would ever realize, and she would probably wear the pants to a greater or lesser degree because of his fear that, since she walked out on him once, she could do it again. That's just my take on it.

"Snape's redemption was a long road, and it was never really complete." (Inverarity)-- I agree, it's not complete, which is part of what makes him interesting. But there's one thing that makes me think it's closer to completion than he's usually given credit for, and that is one memory that he gives Harry as he's dying: the memory of himself in tears, ripping the picture of the Potter family and the letter from Lily so that he has her picture "and her love," as I think the book puts it. There's no need for him to show Harry this to prove that he still loves Lily-- the "Always" scene takes care of that. But he does. There is no excuse for how he, as an adult and a teacher and a person in a position of authority, treats Hermione and Neville in particular and Harry as well, but by the end he's revealing this to Harry for some reason, even though he doesn't need to, and I'm not sure what to make of that, but it argues against anyone (no one on this thread) who would say that he's completely unredeemed. And yeah, I know-- it's actually because we need to have closure and figure out who ripped the picture and the letter from all those chapters before. Plot device.

I apologise for my protracted absence from this thread but I really have been snowed under.

I have, however, been following the thread with interest and wanting to participate, so forgive me while I go off into yet another session of Snape smothering.

Originally Posted by Elmindreda

While I wholeheartedly agree that Severus and Lily would have had a VERY complicated relationship, I think there are several scenarios along which it could evolve, depending on what they would have endured before they got together.

For example, if Severus never lost Lily, and their childhood friendship evolved into something bigger instead of dwindling, I can see the scenario described by CM as valid...

However, what if we try to imagine their relationship starting from some other point? For example, a situation (yes, a highly hypothetical one, and I will be stoned now) in which he manages to somehow win her forgiveness after the SWM. No matter her reasoning or motivations... she forgives him. And from some point after that, they get together.

Consider Severus' feelings at the time. He has already lost her once, and he knows how it feels to be without her. Whatever anyone can say about the nature of love and whether or not he actually loved her, we cannot deny that his dependency on Lily was acute. So, let us imagine that he lost her, and then he got her back. He lost her because of being unable to control his temper, and he knows it. Wouldn't he be afraid of losing his temper with her more than anything?

I see your point and I agree with it, however, Canon!Snape (as he's written exactly, without any inference, preference or fandom interpretation) is already quite afraid of losing his temper.

This is a guy who pretty well prides himself on his calm, cool, collectedness. He can be angry, and vicious, and petty, and cruel, but he's quiet, calm, private and reserved.

Except when he's not.

At which point he's like a starving, rabid wolverine with a den full of hungry pups . . . and the den is being threatened.

When Snape loses control, he does so *S-P-E-C-T-A-C-U-L-A-R-L-Y*. His grabbing of Harry (out of the Pensieve) bordered on physical abuse. As much as others far more educated than me have argued in different venues, and as much as I'd like to believe them, I don't think that his throwing of the jar was *meant* to hit the wall -- I really do think he aimed it at Harry's head. And just think, for just a moment, what it takes for a man who could shoot flies down out of the sky at sixteen to lose control to the degree that he can't aim?

And in the Shrieking Shack, when he's confronting Lupin and Black (who he has every reason to believe are as dangerous and untrustworthy as he's been claiming all along), had he not been knocked unconscious, I'm sure he'd have been an absolute terror. Later, he's absolutely sputtering with outrage and fury, nearly incoherent and incomprehensible.

I don't doubt that in said highly hypothetical situation that Severus would endeavour to treat Lily as a goddess in every regard, but emotionally, he's just not healthy enough to deal with his own emotions and his own reactions, and the ramifications they have. I think it's one of the reasons he comes across SO suppressed.

Originally Posted by Elmindreda

And I'm not telling I'm painting a happy picture here. Because Severus' fear of losing Lily could easily shape his behavior from there on - and in turn, lead to painful, utterly unreasonable jealousy, which he would be afraid to display for the same fear, but which would leak through one way or another, making him act unnatural, poisoning their relationship and leading Lily to believe that he does not trust her... which he would deny... leading to the lack of trust on Lily's behalf, and further locking-up on Severus' part... Another vicious circle here, only from a different standpoint.

Agreed. In many ways, he's a prideful and arrogant man; in many other ways, he's a terribly insecure little boy. I think a long-term relationship with Lily would lead to a frequent display of the latter far more than the former, which again, would be a vicious cycle, and is even further exacerbated by his fear of his own emotions and reactions. I could easily see, in such a scenario, where Severus would come completely unglued by Lily merely looking out the window at a bird.

I don't think Lily was either knowledgeable enough or skilled enough in that particular regard to get him through the intense psychotherapy he would obviously need to get past that, and I can't ever see him consenting to see a professional (even assuming such things are available in the Wizarding World).

Originally Posted by Equinox Chick

I don't think his greasy hair had anything to do with her decision to end the friendship. I believe Snape was her refuge at home because Petunia hated her and she had no friends there. I believe she was reluctant to end the friendship but she knew what he was (or was becoming) and knew he wanted more from her than she could give him. He was too clingy.

Yes, but she no longer *needed* that refuge. She was of an age where her parents were likely to allow her to travel about without an escort, so she could easily have taken the bus or train to a meeting place with her friends, or perhaps the Evans were interested in connecting their home to the Floo Network so she could travel that way. There was a problem connecting the DURSLEY's home to the Floo because the owners of the house weren't interested, but it's possible to connect a Muggle domicile to the Floo, and we've no reason to believe Lily's parents would have refused this.

And while I agree that Snape's greasy hair is not why LILY chose to dump him, I still maintain him being ugly, unpopular and unkempt had a great deal to do with why Lily's FRIENDS were telling her to dump him.

Originally Posted by Equinox Chick

Originally Posted by cmwinters

Clearly, at ten, he didn't have a wand (or he'd have been using it). Clearly, at ten, (or even maybe eleven if they'd already gotten their letters, and it seemed like they had), he didn't have sufficient control over his magic to control that branch from hitting Petunia on the head (otherwise, he would have looked smug, and not scared).

But Snape did have his mums old books and I can't imagine he hadn't looked through them. I don't think we can discard Sirius' words here. I know he hates Snapeand will do anything to present him in a bad light but we can't disregard all his words just to fit a theory.

I absolutely don't advocate disregarding Sirius's words here. My complaint there is *entirely* with the inconsistency of Rowling's writing.

Originally Posted by Equinox Chick

Originally Posted by cmwinters

I am completely failing to see your point here. They started it, he retaliated, it happens, so it's okay?

My point isn't so much to you. Everyone gets very hot under the collar about James/Sirius/Snape and who hexed who. Blah blah all hexes bad etc. My point was that ALL the students at Hogwarts hex each other. We see the Weasley Twins do it again and again. I was however trying to say that I don't think Snape was quite the innocent little victim that people (not neccessarily you) have thought since SWM. Remus says that Snape hexed James as much as possible too and Remus has made his peace with Snape. Remus' error is that he thinks it's all just schoolboy pranks and really doesn't appreciate how much Snape suffered. Of course he'll always be more loyal to Sirius and James but he doesn't bear Snape any ill-will- he says that VERY clearly in HBP. Plus remus trusts Dumbledore's judgement. I also think Snape no longerbears Remus any malice. It is very clear that he saves his life, when his sectumsempra spell hits George he was aiming it at the Death Eater who was trying to kill Remus.

A big part of my point is that, if James and Sirius hadn't started pestering Snape, he wouldn't have started doing it himself. He wouldn't have wanted that kind of attention drawn to him, *especially* in the beginning. Maybe by fifth, or sixth, or seventh year, perhaps, and it would have been vicious, but I really do think that the blame here lies entirely with James and Sirius for *STARTING* it.

Remus is also failing to acknowledge what would have happened *to him* if Sirius' "prank" had succeeded.

I disagree that Snape doesn't bear any malice toward Remus. I think he's still angry, thinks Remus is dangerous (with good reason) and is quite frankly scared to death of him in werewolf form (and I can't imagine Snape would be the kind of guy who would be okay with being afraid of ANYTHING).

But his "defence" of Remus in the flying scene, in my opinion, had nothing to do with Remus so much as it had to do with Severus being an Order member, and Remus being an Order member. He'd have defended Tonks, Kingsley, Moody, or Hagrid in the exact same manner, I think.

Originally Posted by Equinox Chick

If he hates lazy goof offs then why is he okay with Crabbe and Goyle and indeed Malfoy?

Oooooooooooooooh I'm so glad you asked this question! *dance of glee*

Let's remember that the Dark Lord, upon his ressurrection, Summoned all the Death Eaters, and that Snape was one of those Summoned. Remember too, that the Dark Lord prances around the circle and says something like "You who know the steps I have taken to achieve immortality".

I do not believe it is *possible* that Snape thought the Dark Lord was never to return. Regulus Black at SIXTEEN figured out about the Horcruxes, and you expect me to believe the man who knew more about Dark Magic at age eleven than almost anyone else in school didn't come across the term even once in that library he has in his home? Or Lucius' home? (He was clearly quite familiar with the Malfoys; Narcissa refers to him by name and knew where he lived, and he refers to her the same way). Hogwarts is not the only magical library in the world, you know.

I think that Snape knew that the Dark Lord was coming back at some point, and that he probably had no earthly idea when. I think he knew he had to protect his positions (both as Dumbledore's spy and as the Dark Lord's spy and loyal Death Eater) at all costs. Coddling the Slytherin brats was a way to ensure the support of their families, who could and would later vouch for his adherence to the cause.

Also, Draco flaunts that he can get away with things in class, but he made it through his Potions OWL, and he was applying himself quite diligently in Slughorn's class. I think that Draco was PUBLICALLY slacking off because he's an arrogant berk, but in the dorms he probably hit the books as much as Hermione did.

Further, Crabbe and Goyle aren't lazy goof-offs. They're stupid. And we don't see Snape encouraging them, although he certainly isn't taking them in hand (at least not publically; he may have said something privately, because that would be the more Slytherin thing to do.)

Originally Posted by Equinox Chick

Draco's marks at the end of year one were not good- Lucius says so in Bougin and Burkes.

Draco's marks weren't *BAD*, though. It's that Hermione's marks were *BETTER*. But her marks were better than the entire school's. That's what Lucius had a problem with, was that Draco got beaten by someone that Lucius (and Draco) consider "beneath them".

Originally Posted by Equinox Chick

Crabbe/ Goyle- okay perhaps they're just so thick that he sees no potential in them but under Amycus they certainly began to excel at something. Yet Snape didn't attack them for being lazy.

Crabbe and Goyle couldn't even pass their Defence OWL and Snape was having to coach them directly. Although, canonically, that's probably not terribly fair, given that their "teacher" that year was Umbridge, and two of their other teachers (Lockhart & Quirrell) were complete frauds. For crying out loud, the best teachers they'd ever had were a werewolf and a Death Eater (and they, of course, were not in the DA.)

But the Alectos were not teaching Crabbe & Goyle *DEFENCE*, they were teaching them *DARK ARTS*, which is a different animal altogether. If we take Bellatrix's statement as truth, that you have to *mean* the spells for them to work, then a particulary master of charm work, unusual dexterity in wandwork, or an inherent understanding of how magic works (or how to effectively channel it) isn't the necessary component. Wanting to hurt or control someone is the key.

Originally Posted by Equinox Chick

Also he is awful to Hermione. I know she's an 'insufferable know-it-all' but for crying out loud -- surely Snape of all people should be rejoicing in her intelligence.

I think Severus has a lot of problems with Hermione. (Boy am I going to get in trouble with the Hermione fans here . . .)

In a lot of ways, Hermione lacks subtlety. She has moments of intense cunning and sneakiness, but a lot of the time she's brash and an attention hog.

Great, she's intelligent. Or more precisely, she has a near-eidetic memory. That's all fine, except Hermione HAS TO RUB IT IN EVERYONE'S FACE ALL THE TIME. It's all "LOOKATMELOOKATMELOOKATME I KNOW THE ANSWER I'M SO SMART I KNOW EVERYTHING LET ME SHOW OFF I'M BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE" And it's not even the mastery of the material that she has, it's that she can recite her textbook verbatim, which doesn't really indicate that she knows, understands, or can apply the material.

She also refuses outright to experiment or think outside the box at all in Potions, which I'm sure chafed Snape's hide. When the textbook was WRONG, Snape modified it. When Hermione was given a better set of instructions because the textbook was wrong, she refused to follow those instructions outright.

That's kind of abnormal. When confronted with the PROOF that the book was wrong and that there was a better way, she outright refused to believe it because she is incapable of believing that the book isn't Gospel from On High.

And honestly, it doesn't make much sense with the rest of her character. She hasn't any trouble modifying the Protean Charm to charm the coins (which, may I remind you, she got that idea from the Dark Mark), or surreptitiously casting a fidelity charm on the DA roster, or making the canaries attack Ron.

Originally Posted by Elf

Do you agree that he had a difficult time in Slytherin?

To a certain extent, yes, because he was socially awkward (even more than most children that age) and underprivileged, to say nothing of his questionable ancestry.

On the other hand, he appears to have been taken in by Lucius at quite an early age, and it's quite possible that, at least for his first three years (which were Lucius fifth, sixth and seventh), he had “protection” of a sort. By that opportunity, I think he also had ample opportunity to prove his worth (with regards to his incredibly Slytherin tendencies and his knowedge of the Dark Arts.) I don't think his talent at dueling developed until later, however.

Originally Posted by Elf

[color="sienna"]Do you think that the Slytherins knew that he was friends with Lily?

Yes, I do. That Muffliato was created for a reason, and it screams that Severus didn't want someone overhearing his conversations. As much as I detest James & Sirius, I think it unreasaonable to think that they were the ONLY ones eavesdropping on Severus & Lily.

Originally Posted by Equinox Chick

Originally Posted by cmwinters

"There's no evidence that Severus mistreated Lily other than that one time,"

Sorry want to come back to this bit. No he may not have mistreated Lily before but she knew he shared the same views as his friends and knew that Mulciber had tried to attack one of her friends. Someone may not mistreat you personally but if you abhor their views it's very difficult to be friends with them. For instance I hate racists although they've never personally done me any harm.

I think you're proving my point, though. You hate racists. That's fine, but let's say your best friend from childhood is a racist. Do you stop associating with him before or after he says “nigger” in your presence?

That's my point; Lily was already looking for a reason to dump him. Should he have said it (at any point, to any one, for any reason?) No. Do I think she was justified in cutting ties with him? Yes. Not BECAUSE he called her Mudblood, though, but because he was heading on a path she could not follow. And I still maintain that had she given him an ultimatum, he may have changed his ways.

MAY have.

Not WOULD have.

Originally Posted by OliveOil_Med

Taking the doe out of the equation, what animal would you say is most symbolic of Snape and Lily? I want to know this with James Potter taken completely out of the equation.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Er, symbolic how? Do you want it to be Snape's Patronus? A gift he buys her for marrying him? What's the context?

Originally Posted by leahsm2

I know that JK has said that Snape's portrait hangs with the others' in the Head Master's office, but I've seen nothing on his funeral, who collected his body or where he is buried. Is there anything in Canon about this part?

Nothing, which is one of my sincere problems with the series. She did a perfectly horrid job of showing Lucius Malfoy as LESS “deeply horrible” than Snape, but gave Lucius a better ending. That she left Snape's body to ROT in the SHACK of all places had me in near-complete hysterics for weeks.

Originally Posted by OliveOil_Med

After Lily rejected him, Snape develved in deep with the Death Eaters and Voldemort, but he still loved Lily from afar, enough to ask Dumbledore to keep her and her family safe.

What aspect of his personality do think led to him going as deep into the Dark Arts as he did after he lost Lily as a friend? What would have to change for him to try and win her back instead? You know, as a different path in life, what would have to happen to make him decide that Lily's love was more important than respect or power?

Well, I don't think it's true that he jumped into it after Lily rejected him; I think he was pretty into it before. But that's really not all that much of an issue.

I really think that a big part of Severus' problems throughout life stem from his relative lack of control over his own circumstances. Remember that Hogwarts, which Harry thought of as a haven, was an absolute hell for Severus, with the Marauders torturing him the way they did. And things didn't appear to be any better at home. It seems that in his life, exactly two people extended the hand of friendship to him; Lily and Lucius.

I think that respect, and enough power over his own destiny, were more important than anything (even Lily's love). I don't think, for example, that he'd have chosen her over being able to look himself in the mirror in the morning. But at the very least, for him to have turned entirely away from the Dark Arts, he'd have had to NOT be bullied the way he was, and at the very least, a place to stay (besides Spinner's End) where he wasn't exposed to Pureblood superiority rhetoric all day (so, like, not with Lucius).

He'd really have needed real friends, the way Sirius had in James. Remember, he doesn't appear to have ever been shown any affection by his parents, and that is something so completely damaging that it would have taken years to overcome.

Originally Posted by Inverarity

Snape's redemption was a long road, and it was never really complete.

I have to say this, because it's really bothering me.

Part of what you're claiming he needs to be "redeemed" for is that he was never properly cared for by parents who obviously never wanted him and had no business being together in the first place. This kind of "well if the parents don't care for the child why should I" mentality makes me crazy and is brutally unfair to the child.

Severus never had an reference for normal and for love and for how people should treat each other because nobody other than Lily and possibly Lucius ever showed it to him.

Originally Posted by SeverusSempra

The tip-off to me is that in SWM, before the "Mudblood" comment, before she calls him Snivellus and makes that cutting comment about how he should wash his underclothes, before he has insulted her-- she almost smiles when one of the Marauders does something to him. Let me know if I'm wrong, but I think she's about to ready to smile at their doing this interminable series of humiliations even before he calls her a Mudblood. She's not just ready to get rid of him for philosophical reasons-- she's nearly smiling at his enemies treating him like dirt just because he's there. Again, I don't have a copy of the book with me right now, so I apologize if this is incorrect in the timing, but I think it may be correct.

You're correct, and I have to wonder if Severus saw it. It still wouldn't excuse him calling her Mudblood, but he was already in an impossible situation. He leaves the exam with NO friends, is happily minding his own business and then the entire school gathers around to watch him being tormented by a gang of bullies who have nearly just killed him only weeks before and CONSTANTLY get away with their behaviour, and the spectators include his one friend in all the world, WHO THEN LAUGHS AT HIM.