OK...first of all...I have to say ahead of time to the moderators that I am sorry for this post. I know it is going to be politically incorrect, I know I am going to step on some toes, I know I am going to use strong language, etc. However, I am really tired of reading messages from people ignorant of the topic that make stupid comments and have extremely faulty logic (note to the reader: I am not lumping everyone mentioned in my response here into all of these groups or any of these group...I am speaking in general terms here at this point). So, I am sorry.

First point to deal with...doing KO's can kill you or cause physical harm.

Sure it can...if that is what you are aiming to do! If they didn't, then why would we use them? But in the context of training and/or seminars, this is getting to the point of being stupid. Let's look at some facts:

#1. When it comes to vital or pressure points, the ones located on the main meridians (jingmai or keiraku) number 309.

#2. Since the main meridians of the body are bilateral (both sides of the body), that brings the number of points to 618.

#3. If we add the points on the Governing Vessel (GV) and Conception Vessel (CV), that brings the total to 670 (please not that of the extraordinary vessels, only the GV and CV have unique points that are not already a part of an already established meridian system).

#4. While there are a variety of different schools that use a different number of "extra points" (jingwai xue in Chinese and refer to points that are not located on a meridian or extraordinary vessel), one number that is safe to use that all could agree upon is 48. Adding those, we come to a grand total of 718 points on the human body.

With that number of 718 established, let's look at every day life and just a couple of examples and apply some logic:

#1. How many times when a kid did you have friends (or otherwise) punch you as hard as the could mid-arm...or punch or knee you as hard as possible mid-thigh?

#2. How many of you player football as a youngster or teenager?

#3. How many of you boxed as a youngster?

#4. How many of you have ever bumped your head HARD on something when standing up?

#5. How many of you have ever bumped your leg(s) HARD at a desk or a table?

#6. How many of you have ever run into something HARD?

#7. The list could go on and on and on....

So...look at those few examples. Then, total up a conservative estimate of the number of times that each has happened. A conservative estimate (based upon your age of course) is tens of thousands easily and for some of us it would run into the hundreds of thousands. Now couple this with the fact that we have established that there are over 700 vital points on the human body. Are you going to tell me that the VAST MAJORITY of these incidents don't involve these points? Hell, shaking hands with someone covers at least 8 at one time. What are the odds that you receive the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of "attacks" to vital points and yet, you are still alive and reading my message? Obviously, because there is something more to utilizing these vital points other than hitting then with "x" amount of force or pressure. If this were not the case, then most folks would never make it out of early childhood or adolescence. One of the points to consider here is that the energetic system of the body is specifically designed to deal with such instances where an "accidental" use of vital points does occur and to correct it almost an instant. It has to.

So carry this forward in your martials arts training that uses vital points...when was the last time you ever saw anyone killed using vital points? I'd likely say never. As long as you or your training partner are not being overly stupid in how you apply vital points, then there is generally nothing to worry about. The energetic system of the body is going to correct itself with no problems. There are a few exceptions to this general rule of thumb, but the vast majority of them involve common sense. And, this is why you hear so many folks that have actual experience in the use and in the teaching the use of vital points say that you need instruction from a "professional". Hell, even within the field of acupuncture, some points are contr-indicated (meaning don't use them...some are the type you do not use period and some are based on certain conditions or situations). Why would we not expect the same to be true when using them in a combative situation?====================================================Second....the "theory" that utilizing 3 or 5 points on a person at the same time will cause a KO (usually what I have seen regarding using 3 points) or death (usually what I have seen regarding 5 points) to an individual.

For those of you that follow the teachings of George Dillman and/or his instructors I am sorry...but this MYTH came from them and is total CRAP. Period. End of story. Please provide me proof or documentation from any Chinese medical text that this is the case. Or simply explain to me the logic using the theories and principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) that this is the case. You can't because it does not exist and it cannot be done. I have dealt with this topic on this forum and many others on numerous occasions. Never once has anyone taken me up on this. Why? Two reasons...the first because they don't know enough about TCM in the first place. Second, because their instructor or their instructor's instructor said it so it has to be true and they researched it not one bit.

Go grab a TCM point reference and see how may points are "activated" in a simple handshake. Over 5. Go see how many points are "activated" in a simple wrist grab. Over 5. Go see how many points are activated in a slap to the face. Over 5. When was the last time you saw someone killed or seriously injured in any way, shape or form from any of these?

Again, my offer stands...prove to me with a cited reference to a written work or use your own knowledge of TCM and prove that this works. If you cannot or will not do this, then please keep your mouth shut as spouting off with crap like this only makes the lives of those of us that work with vital points for real that much more difficult. Is that too much to ask of you?==================================================Third.....does pressing or rubbing points work.

This one is so silly I really wanted to bang my head on my desk in disgust. Let's look at it from a couple of different angles or perspectives, shall we?

First of all, have any of you ever heard of traditional Chinese massage? There are a couple of different schools. One is called Tuina and it means PUSHING and GRASPING. The other main schools is called Anmo and it means PRESSING and RUBBING. Gee...PUSHING and GRASPING and PRESSING and RUBBING. And both of these schools are based upon the throeires and principles of TCM and utilize the exact same points. So, we either have to throw out tuina and Anmo as working healing methods or we have to say that it works for just that reason...that it is a healing method. But, so is acupuncture. So, if we can "reverse engineer" (for lack of a better term) acupuncture to be able to utilize it as an adjunct to our combative training then why can't the same be said of Tuina and Anmo? It can and it is.

Some points respond better to rubbing or vibration and some respond better to striking. TW-10 and TW-11 on the arm above the elbow are prime examples of this. TW-10 responds much better to a rub and is a release point for the elbow joint. TW-11 (slightly further up the arm) responds much better to a strike than it does a rub or vibration. The Wood/Earth crossing on the torso is another point that respoinds well to a rub or a vibration. Are all of these "rubs" going to be combatively effective? No. Just like not all 700+ vital points on the body are effectively accessed in a combative situation. some can and should be used to prove a point in a seminar or teaching situation. Some are going to be more readily available in a grappling or ground fighting situation. All you have to do is have a small bit of knowledge and combine that with a bit of common sense and quit throwing out the baby with the bath water because you cannot immediately figure out the use or purpose. Remember...not all points are created equal! When you go to see an acupuncturist, some points are needled more deeply, some more shallow. Some points require different heads on the needles. Some require a tapping on the top of the needled once inserted to get the desired effect. Some require the needle to be twirlled in a particular direction after inserted. The same is true of using them in a combative sense. Even western medical science tells us that rubbing or vibrating ST-9 gets a different result than striking it. And that takes us into the area of local anatomy...and if you have not done enough research there to figure out why you get different results, then shame on you!=================================================Fourth.....time of day. In regards to actually wanting to kill someone, this is probably the most correct of incorrect statements I have seen in regards to this thread. Yes, as the Bubishi clearly indicates, there are shichen (a bi-hourly unit of measurement) points that can be used to cause death. But, it not simply a matter of hitting those specific points. There is much more to it than that to make it work. However, when it comes to general usage of points, the time of day is probably going to be an over all factor of about .01% of getting the desired effect. Outside of following what the Bubishi and other documents are trying to teach on the shichen points, it is just not that important. When talking about healing, that is different....but not for "general hurting".===================================================Fifth and lastly comes the uninformed and illogical comments by "Hedgehogey". Let's deal with those.

First, why don't we see vital points used in NHB fighting? They are...all of the time...but you just cannot see it because you don't know what it is that you are seeing. If you think me wrong, here is a quote off of Dan "The Beast" Severn's web page (http://www.the-beast.com)...here is what he provides training in:

"You've seen him on TV, Now you have a chance to train with the 'the Beast' in person at his private training facility. Most altercations if not ceased within the first kick or punch results in a grappling situation. Now is your chance to expand your arsenal with proven submission holds, chokes, pressure points and grappling techniques from a man that has defeated some of the most talented and feared competitors in the world."

Wow...imagine that! One of the most prolific champions in NHB fighting teaches the use of PRESSURE POINTS. Interesting, neh? But I guess he has never used them in a NHB fight nor trained anyone else to. Nah! He would just use them else where...not in a NHB fight because if he or others did we would be able to see it used. Yeah...right....

Also....get a fighter's applicaiton from the UFC. Don't go by the rules listed on their website that the Nevada Boxing Commission made them sign off on. Go by the copy that you actually get as a part of the application and that you have to sign and agree to. Unless it has changed since the last time I saw a copy, then you will be really, really surprised to find out what is illegal to use in their fights. One guess as to what it is...

Second...let's look at the comment about how we have a video that shows vital points not working. Boy...you have got some great evidence there. Simply because you have a video showing one case where it did not work, then none of it works. Let's apply your logic to the following:

1. I have video footage of a kumite match where a guy charged in and got caught full force with a front kick to the nose. Caught in the sense that it just about crushed the nose entirely and had to be lifted up with a pencil and have tissues stuffed into it so the guy could continue. But, continue he did. And the kick did not drop this guy. While the kicker got the point, the kickee kept right on charging and tagged the guy with a reverse punch to the solar plexus to drop him. But, in using your logic we have to throw out all front kicks or at least those targeted to the nose because in this one case it did not work.

2. Several years ago, I attended a college football game between Baylor and San Jose State University (you kow it was several years ago as Baylor actually had a good team then). Baylor was close to scoring the touchdown and the quarterback at the time got sacked hard...and I do mean HARD. Since this was several years ago and helmet to helmet contact (especially with a QB) is not as verbotten as it is now, he literally got his bell rung. He was given a concussion. After the game we came to find out that he remembers nothing past being hit then until half way into the halftime. But, even in this condition he was able to get up, go to the huddle, receive the play from the sideline, repeat the play to the team and then execute it. And the play that he executed was a quarterback keeper around the left side to score. So, using the wonderful logic from Hedgehogey, we have to throw out all contact to the quarterback as an attempt to stop him from executing offensive plays because we have this one incident where it did not work.

3. We also have the case of a knife wielding man who was shot 3 times in the chest with a .38 by a policeman as he (the perp) was rushing him (the police officer). The guy died, but not before he was able to still get to the cop and kill him with the knife by stabbing and slashing him repeatedly. So, again using the logic of Hedgehogey we have to throw out the use of deadly force by police against knife wielding opponents because we have this one documented case where it did not work. Obviously, the best option for police in this case is to keep their weapons holstered and run the opposite directions.

Are you beginning to get my point here? I certainly hope so. It is just plain stupid to think that because you have a case where something does not work it will never work (and for the PC police, note that I did not call any individual stupid here...I said it is stupid to think that...one can have a stupid thought, right?). If you had even the slightest of clues as to what it is that you are talking about, not only would you know that your logic is flawed at it's core but you would also know that there are a variety of different reasons why vital points in a particular case (especially not a truly combative situation where you do not care about the health of your attacker after the usage) do not or will not work. And if you'd like to, I would be happy to discuss them in extreme detail with you (Hedgehogey specifically) or anyone else.

But, what you have done here(besides the flawed logic) is expressed a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter. Hedgehogey...what is your background with vital points? With whom have you trained and for how long? Usually, I find comments such as yours coming from someone that has maybe read a book, maybe seen a video or two or at most been to a single hands on seminar. So, I will be more than happy to share my keizu (lineage) with you...how about you tell me yours?==================================================

OK...I am done and will get off my soapbox for the moment...I am sorry for the outburst and writing a mini version of War and Peace on the topic. But, I just reached a breaking point today with what I was reading. Newbies looking for information come here and get wrong information and others would like to talk as experts and don't have the credentials to do so. Perhaps I woke up on the wrong side of the bed...maybe this helped someone. Either way, I feel better now! <grin!>

[QUOTE]First, why don't we see vital points used in NHB fighting? They are...all of the time...but you just cannot see it because you don't know what it is that you are seeing. [/QUOTE]

Then enlighten me. Show me a spot struck in a specific MMA fight that does not already have an MWM explanation.

[QUOTE]IWow...imagine that! One of the most prolific champions in NHB fighting teaches the use of PRESSURE POINTS. Interesting, neh? But I guess he has never used them in a NHB fight nor trained anyone else to. Nah! He would just use them else where...not in a NHB fight because if he or others did we would be able to see it used. Yeah...right....[/QUOTE]

Again, point to me an example of Severn using a PP in a fight. I've never seen him use more than GnP.

[QUOTE]Also....get a fighter's applicaiton from the UFC. Don't go by the rules listed on their website that the Nevada Boxing Commission made them sign off on. Go by the copy that you actually get as a part of the application and that you have to sign and agree to. Unless it has changed since the last time I saw a copy, then you will be really, really surprised to find out what is illegal to use in their fights. One guess as to what it is...[/QUOTE]

Actually, the nevada boxing commision rules prohibit "pressure points" also. This was never something the UFC wanted, but it was forced onto them by ignorant politicians like John Mccain. And you, like every other PP nutrider on the internet have assumed that the UFC is the only MMA competition in the world.

There are dozens more in amerikkka alone, like the KOTC, gladiator challenge, rage in the cage, etc. Not to mention many more in brazil and japan.

As far as I know, UFC is the only one that prohibits PP.

[QUOTE]Second...let's look at the comment about how we have a video that shows vital points not working. Boy...you have got some great evidence there. Simply because you have a video showing one case where it did not work, then none of it works. Let's apply your logic to the following:[/QUOTE]

If you have a video of PP working on an uncooperative opponent, i'd like to see it.

<snip examples of fallacious logic>

The problem with your reasoning is that we have many positive evidence for all three of those things working. Plenty of matches show KO by head kick and of course we can always watch videos of people getting shot.

Remember, *you* are the one making the assertion, so the burden of proof rests on you. So put forward a disprovable assertion already.

[QUOTE]But, what you have done here(besides the flawed logic) is expressed a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter. So, I will be more than happy to share my keizu (lineage) with you...how about you tell me yours?[/QUOTE]

I have none. I am a sportfighter. I train at an MMA gym. What I do that sets me apart from 99% of all "pressure point" practicioners is get hit all over my body regularly with hard contact by resisting opponents. If you have something useful you can show to us, do so. You stand to make a lot of money. If you can show us an easy way to KO a resisting opponent that works better than the muay thai we use right now, we will not only pay you for the service, i'll bet you'll even get a share of the winnings from the fight your technique was used in. The same goes for any sportfighting gym on the planet.

Dim Mak is a Chinese art that extends from the internal martial arts and carried over to Shaolin Long Fist and Northern, Southern boxing styles. It has nothing to do with force, it is an energy technique in which the JING (Essence) is used to block energy channels in the opponent. In theory, by striking the right point, the energy could block vital channels, nerve(energy) and cause death within minutes or days. When I say strike, I am talking about mere slaps, taps, and pokes, not full power punches or kicks. Also, skill will beat strenth all of the time. I hope this clears some of this up.

How can a 98-pound woman or child defend himself or herself against a 250-pound attacker regardless of their fitness or skill level? The only way is with the effective use of pressure points.

BullS*** all i can say is she is going to get her arse kicked if she cant hit the point hard enough plus anyone who is only 98 pounds shouldnt leave a hospital and if they do they should cary a gun if they can lift it.

btw thats the only part i could reply to with out feeling like a complete moron or jackarse anyways eather they would have to hit the point with force or just run or have a gun

Hmn... Hullo everyone. Firstly, I would substantially like to agree with Meijin. The Death Touch doesn't exist in quite the way far too many people talk about it!

Please let me introduce myself in the only way a martial artist really should, and that is by stating the names of his teachers. I have received proper training by Grand Master Chan Hon Chung, Chairman of the World Chinese Martial Arts Federation; also Lung Kai Ming, Grand Master of Northern Shaolin School. However the knowledge is not exclusively Chinese and some of my masters knew Gogen Yamaguchi personally, and we regard him as essentially belonging to the same school that we do...

I am what is known as 'within the family door,' and I do have precise and accurate knowledge of the secret systems and techniques which are being discussed here.

One of the biggest problems I see in why people think about this subject in the wrong way, is due to the fact that frankly in the first place, not even that many Chinese really comprehend the scholarly form of writing and speaking that has been used to pass down the system.

Further, the English translater Dr. John Dudgeon - who translated the few authentic ancient classical texts on the matter - being alive in the Victorian era, refrained from explicitly and accurately translating the quite earthy sexual nature of some of the ideas on 'energy.'

One of the reasons I find myself on this board/forum at all is my disgust at way the currently most popular/leading self-proclaimed expert on this subject (and who has written numerous books on it!) has captured the mindset and ideas about the subject, but who really has no knowledge at all about it that is genuine.

I will presently endeavour to explain as much as I am able to say here on the subject.

Of course, absolutely EVERYONE who is the head of a major school more-or-less, would LOVE to say they have accurate and appliable knowledge of a thing with such mystique! And to some extent this IS true of every genuine master of almost every decent school... But you must be pedantic if you want to know the full truth here, and separate between specialist use of important attack target points - and the apparently mythical 'Divine Hand' (which is the correct phrase).

The Death Touch is never used in the heat of an angry fight, to the best of my knowledge. Among those clan families who truly know about it, it is in the first place regarded as a feminine technique, also slightly indulging in a kind of black magic, and wherever there is a male possessor of this knowledge that person has the name virtually of something like a Shaman.

Females MIGHT be taught it, in the event they are required to protect something really important, as a last resort, and where there is no prospect of loyal male protection or male guards. Being normally somewhat physically weaker than males, obviously they require a way of defending themselves that doesn't rely purely on strength.

For males who REALLY learn the complete system, do you know that they 'lose' seven years of their natural life, firstly in studying the techniques under a true master/mistress - and if they ever have to use the techniques to cause a death, they give up ten years of their natural lifespan for each death actually caused. They swear a blood oath about these sacrifices BEFORE they are ever taken in by a true master/mistress. The whole thing is a pseudo-religious event (or FULLY religious, if you are prepared to look at it that way).

There are four levels of 'Divine Hand' - one that causes short-term paralysis, one that causes something like a stroke, one that causes debilitating illness, and one that leads to certain death. A 'Divine Hand' death touch (or any level of it) may be reversed.

A practitioner is in a type of a trance when they carry out the method.

There is no physical force at all used when the method is employed - it looks very much like someone doing calligraphy but with nothing in their hand, just the hand itself and the extended fingers. Wing Chin Grand Master Yip Man was a true exponent of this. I would not be prepared to state the names of the people from my family who were exponents, but you should know that the infamous Sung sisters (one married to Chiang Kai Shek) were exponents. They were from the very aristocratic Sung/Moon clan. This family is known in Cantonese as the Haw Moon Tong - or Kuo Min Tang, which is the same as the political party in Taiwan, which is in fact named after that family.

All right. Now the most important part - how it works, and what is actually happening.