I don't see a problem with the rules as they are. It means that a low MP will quickly get the best shot he's ever going to attain, no matter how much more he aims. A high MP means some rare and great skill to make even tricky shots, it takes a looong time to figure out all the variables in the equation and compensate for them, this more aiming time is needed to make the best shot possible with your high skill.

way I see it, that discrepancy makes perfect sense. I can have a lot of skill at throwing but not be able to do so fast, I might also be fast but not very good at throwing. I see the two as seperate issues that the rules account for well.

Its like sword fighting, you might have more skill but less physical acumen... the use of the reflex stat accounts for this well.

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Philosophy: Take whatever is not nailed down, for the rest, well thats what movement is for!

There's been a ton of threads on this topic, and it never gets resolved...just a lot of suggestions for house rules. Basically people understand the quick versus accurate wit versus skill thing, but they get bent out of shape when thinking of a "gun fight". You've got Joe "Ninja" who's 30 and has been tossing shurikens since he was 4 years old on the west end of the street (MP 25 wit 4), and Lightning Frank "Picked up a knife for the first time yesterday" who's never actually tossed anything before in his life but has great stats that affect MP calculation (MP 6 Wit 6) on the east end of the street. Both draw and throw at the same time...Joe Ninja dies a hideous violent death and Frank limps away to get some light medical attention so he can go back to his job pumping gas.

I know I'm oversimplifying it, but I just want to paint a crystal clear picture of what people have a beef with because I think the point keeps getting missed. I'm not real thrilled with the concept of "my 26 years of training and muscle memory has no impact at all on my ability to rip off a halfway decent clean shot" versus "he never threw anything before in his life but creams me anyhow in a fight that isn't even close" myself. Not having actually been in a serious missile exchange yet in game play I haven't been burned on it yet, but I see it coming nonetheless.

oh...suppose I should propose a house rule instead of just pointing out the problem...to me I'd say something like MP refreshes at (Wit + (Skill/5 round down)) instead of just Wit...or some such thing. Not a huge benefit, but enough to distinguish between a master and some untrained wank.

I like the rules the way they are. In real life there's a part of aiming that's just plain natural talent, and a part that's skill. I think aiming quickly leans more towards talent, so this setup works fine for me. It may not be perfect, but it's a game.

Besides, wit should be important in a fight. Dumb people die quickly in fights.

-Jeff

edit: if you really have to - just make the first bit of dice a function of skill, e.g. half your skill right away, then your wit per round until you fill up. Then your 26 years of super-ninjitsu training will be of use in a shurikan showdown.

*chuckle*...wait til you've been playing the same character for 3 or 4 years of real time and have grown really attached to it and someone rolls up a character with a higher wit than yours that kills your cherished character mercilessly in a missile duel 20 minutes after finishing roll up and see if you still like the rules the way they are. Betcha change your perspective a bit then.

Added Edit:Not suggesting a character with years and years of familiarity and practice should have a huge advantage over someone whose never even picked up something to throw before, but I definitely am saying the untrained guy shouldn't have the auto win he has currently. If someone's been throwing for 20 years or more, they're not going to have exactly the same results they had the first day they ever threw something (which is the case if Wit is the only determination of refresh...assuming their Wit hasn't changed, then 20 years of practice later the character is neither faster nor more accurate than his first throw ever)....no, after 20 years of practice when they go to throw they're so familiar with the weight and balance that the knife or whatever practically leaps into their hand and gracefully auto launches...even if the thrower is the same slack jawed idiot he was 20 years ago. Just like every repetative process in the world, with repetition comes speed. Go check out a factory worker on an assembly line some time...their wit isn't a stitch higher than it was on day one, but their fingers fly now with inhuman speed and amazing accuracy...and they didn't have ANYWHERE near that speed or that accuracy on day one...and wit has very little to do with it as most of those jobs are mind numbing and a few of those people aren't exactly what you'd term "the fastest horse in the stable" in terms of wit.

IMO there's no such thing as an expert knife thrower (archer, whatever) who DOESN'T have a high Wit. One begets the other, it takes a high Wit to become such an expert, because without it you can't draw fast enough, it's self-proving.

Having said that, I am considering a skill-element for refreshes as well (just thinking through the permutations and math at the moment) for possible inclusion into TFOB as an optional rule.

I'd say I have to agree with you on that, but I also think the optional rule thing has a good chance of "fairing up the numbers" enough to pretty much make the recurring threads about missle pool refreshing concerns go away. Appologies to any toes I've stepped on if any...just stuck my nose in where it probably didn't belong in order to try to clarify a discussion I've seen go by multiple times now without diffinitive resolution...in hopes of clearing up the nature of the beef enough that a good solid solution would show up this time. Thanks Brian.

Anyway, the problem IMO is that it takes just as long time to aim at a target 200 meters away than a target in 10 meters..or even closer (f.ex. if we are talking about knife throwing).

It just feels pretty weird that it takes so much time to aim for 2-3 turns just to throw it at a human sized target 5 meters away. I've been throwing knives a little as a hobby, and I think you can really hit the target (at least human sized) really quickly (maybe 0-1s aiming), you just learn to do it by throwing enough..

Archers shooting at long ranges is a different thing.

One of my players happens to be a knife thrower, and that's why this subject has come in mind.

Anyway, the problem IMO is that it takes just as long time to aim at a target 200 meters away than a target in 10 meters..or even closer (f.ex. if we are talking about knife throwing).

It just feels pretty weird that it takes so much time to aim for 2-3 turns just to throw it at a human sized target 5 meters away. I've been throwing knives a little as a hobby, and I think you can really hit the target (at least human sized) really quickly (maybe 0-1s aiming), you just learn to do it by throwing enough..

Archers shooting at long ranges is a different thing.

In MY humble opinion, the problem lies in how damage is calculated. Because you don't have to aim 2-3 rounds to hit a human sized target 5 meters away. At 5 meters away, you have a ATN of 7 - 8 (can't remember right now) which is not that difficult to achieve with say, 4 dice. (edit: around 80% chance) If you want to hit at longer ranges, you'll need to aim more, because you got an ATN of 12+ or whatever.Of course, you ain't gonna do much damage with one success only. And thats where the problem lies. The MoS should determine how close to your intended target you hit. Damage should be determined from the weapon's DR and where you actually hit.I have no idea how to do this in an elegant way, though...

On the original topic:As some other have said, I think this is solved by the fact that the attributes are not simply talents you're born with. They can be trained. Which is what any clever knife thrower will do; train up his Wit.OTOH, I don't know if you can call spending SA's to "train". But hey, that's how you get your profencies, right?

If you're not happy with that, here's a clever house rule: The first round you get half your MP, the following rounds give you Wit dice as usual.

Naw, doesn't work whenever MP/2 is less than Wit. Example MP 6, Wit 6. By existing system I start with 6 dice...with your suggestion I only get 3...thanks but no thanks. Even with MP 10 and Wit 6 I only get 5 instead of my 6. The house rule's worse than the existing design. And Wit being non-consistant in use doesn't feel like it makes sense either.

That would be better, but I'm betting Brian comes up with something a little more reflective of realism. He's pretty good at churning the numbers.

Oh, I agree with the 5 meter stuff...not sure about the one success thing though. One success plus damage rating is fairly nasty on an unarmored average toughness target. I do agree it probably has little effect on player characters though, as they usually have a great toughness and other protections, possibly including spells and armor.

The problem with training up stats is that in the real world people rarely improve their mental characteristics...pretty much what you're born with is pretty much it...you can over achieve and train yourself to get better results, but you're really still using what you had in the first place. Training up a skill feels more reflective of the real world process to me...but since stats are a part of the game system I can see your point too. Probably a flavor call as to which method makes more sense in practice.