That's totally weak. Pathetic even. Surely, Akumulator, you can do better than that. It takes a special breed of partisan hackery and downright dumbass to turn McCain's comments into "he hated America before he was tortured into loving it." I mean, say whatever you want about his comment (which is understandable by a three year old when taken in context)... but to say he "hated" America?

I guess this is how you intend to get Michelle O, Ayres, and Wright off the table? Good luck with the claim that someone who enlisted "hated America." By all means, shout this from the mountaintops. It can only help your opponents.

I feel the same way about carrying concealed weapons on a college campus, but that's OT.

"Hate" might have been the wrong word, but who knows? Did he like America? Did he love her a little? How much is enough? I watch Discover Channel and see construction sites in the US adorned with huge American flags, but sites in other countries often don't have similar flags; why the need for such public displays of national pride; are we scared somebody might forget?

Obama didn't wear an American pin. Oh God! A couple of weeks later, he was the only one wearing a pin. Oh, God!

The clip (sans the announcer) does show a recurring theme ushering forth from McCain's mouth. I think it should be probed more deeply, especially given the fact that he is so focused on his war record.

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

"Like a lot of Vietnam veterans, I believed and still believe that the war was winnable," he said. "I do not believe that it was winnable at an acceptable cost in the short or probably even the long term using the strategy of attrition which we employed there to such tragic results. I do believe that had we taken the war to the North and made full, consistent use of air power in the North, we ultimately would have prevailed." - 1998

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"We lost in Vietnam because we lost the will to fight, because we did not understand the nature of the war we were fighting, and because we limited the tools at our disposal." - 2003

Now I know he's unfit to lead this nation. That conflict was lost they day we committed regular troops. But what is history to some, it is a doctrine for others.

There is a feeling among some of McCain’s fellow veterans that his break with them on Iraq can be traced, at least partly, to his markedly different experience in Vietnam. McCain’s comrades in the Senate will not talk about this publicly. They are wary of seeming to denigrate McCain’s service, marked by his legendary endurance in a Hanoi prison camp, when in fact they remain, to this day, in awe of it. And yet in private discussions with friends and colleagues, some of them have pointed out that McCain, who was shot down and captured in 1967, spent the worst and most costly years of the war sealed away, both from the rice paddies of Indochina and from the outside world. During those years, McCain did not share the disillusioning and morally jarring experiences of soldiers like Kerry, Webb and Hagel, who found themselves unable to recognize their enemy in the confusion of the jungle; he never underwent the conversion that caused Kerry, for one, to toss away some of his war decorations during a protest at the Capitol. Whatever anger McCain felt remained focused on his captors, not on his own superiors back in Washington.

I feel the same way about carrying concealed weapons on a college campus, but that's OT.

Yep, it is.

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"Hate" might have been the wrong word, but who knows? Did he like America? Did he love her a little? How much is enough?

The TPM narrative continues. Again, you do understand the context and point he's making, right? I cannot tell if you are being obtuse to make a rhetorical point, or if you really think this is a valid issue.

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Obama didn't wear an American pin. Oh God! A couple of weeks later, he was the only one wearing a pin. Oh, God!

Rather silly, the first time, the second time, and the 20th time.

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I think it should be probed more deeply,

Oh, but of course you do... I completely agree with you... get you guys on record "not understanding" the point he's making, when most people get it. Whip this one up good. Make McCain defend his war record, and let Obama defend his. Like I said, it can do little but hurt your cause. Go for it.

The TPM narrative continues. Again, you do understand the context and point he's making, right? I cannot tell if you are being obtuse to make a rhetorical point, or if you really think this is a valid issue.

Rather silly, the first time, the second time, and the 20th time.

Oh, but of course you do... I completely agree with you... get you guys on record "not understanding" the point he's making, when most people get it. Whip this one up good. Make McCain defend his war record, and let Obama defend his. Like I said, it can do little but hurt your cause. Go for it.

It won't matter.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

That's totally weak. Pathetic even. Surely, Akumulator, you can do better than that. It takes a special breed of partisan hackery and downright dumbass to turn McCain's comments into "he hated America before he was tortured into loving it." I mean, say whatever you want about his comment (which is understandable by a three year old when taken in context)... but to say he "hated" America?

I guess this is how you intend to get Michelle O, Ayres, and Wright off the table? Good luck with the claim that someone who enlisted "hated America." By all means, shout this from the mountaintops. It can only help your opponents.

He was just exaggerating for effect: You know, how all the conservatives were saying, and continue to say, that Michelle Obama hates America?

Jeez, clark is speaking out because he wants the #2 slot but effectively just made sure he didn't get it.

I figure Jim Webb would nullify the military dimension although women would likely stay home in droves. He said he's not interested though. Too bad, he'd be really good even if he's more than a bit the maverick.

Hagel would work as well but iffy with the base.

Sebelius would be better to court the women vote but not do a heck of a lot to mitigate the military service issue.

Jeez, clark is speaking out because he wants the #2 slot but effectively just made sure he didn't get it.

I figure Jim Webb would nullify the military dimension although women would likely stay home in droves. He said he's not interested though. Too bad, he'd be really good even if he's more than a bit the maverick.

Hagel would work as well but iffy with the base.

Sebelius would be better to court the women vote but not do a heck of a lot to mitigate the military service issue.

The VP choice for Obama, I think, is more crucial than for McCain.

I don't see it that way at all. You put the blame on Clark. That's not what happened.

Clark said nothing wrong. He was asked a simple question and he gave a simple answer.

WHAT HAPPENED was that McCain's campaign knew Clark would be a tough opponent if he were Obama's VP and they did whatever they could to make his comments a phony controversy in order to keep Clark off the ticket.

It was a preemptive strike. Simple as that.

"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."

I find it particularly delicious that you guys get all hot and bothered when fiery rhetoric is used against your candidate (whether it is believed or not). Yet have no qualms bringing out all your guns and firing away full force at the Obama family (whether it is believed or not).

You give no safe quarter to concern trolls. Why should we?

"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."

That's totally weak. Pathetic even. Surely, Akumulator, you can do better than that. It takes a special breed of partisan hackery and downright dumbass to turn McCain's comments into "he hated America before he was tortured into loving it." I mean, say whatever you want about his comment (which is understandable by a three year old when taken in context)... but to say he "hated" America?

I guess this is how you intend to get Michelle O, Ayres, and Wright off the table? Good luck with the claim that someone who enlisted "hated America." By all means, shout this from the mountaintops. It can only help your opponents.

Your response is like verbal Afrin. I can suddenly breathe easier.

No.. I didn't think McCain hated his country. Yes, it was a parody of Conservative commentary. Thanks Jubelum for taking a dose of your own medicine.

(what the heck is that thing in that guy's hand behind the security? Bush and McCain's head as part of a clown costume? )

Bush = McCain..."Two Peas in a Pod".

Who is the guy in the brown jacket? He says the Secret Service told him to remove her. Then when she asks the cop if he's accusing her of trespassing on city property, the cop says "I'm not saying that, he says you're trespassing" and points to the guy in the brown jacket. chickenshits won't even speak for themselves...just passing the buck.

But we'll see what reactions occur when protesters are escorted out of an Obama rally...right?

I find it particularly delicious that you guys get all hot and bothered when fiery rhetoric is used against your candidate (whether it is believed or not). Yet have no qualms bringing out all your guns and firing away full force at the Obama family (whether it is believed or not).

First of all, Northgate, McCain is not "my candidate." Far from it. He's barely one step better than BHO. I don't really expect anything but your hard line partisan knee jerk, so no surprise there. McCain, like Obama, would not be good for the country. And like with Akumulator, I'll explain something to you- if you take issue with my comments, so be it... take them on. If you have an issue with certain assholes in the media, or conservative pundits, or whatever is in your head you've heard that offends you, take them on.

Show me an occasion where I've "fired away full force at the Obama family," or STFU.

But we'll see what reactions occur when protesters are escorted out of an Obama rally...right?

Escorted out? Naahhh... they'll be over in the "free speech zone" with the Recreate68 folks, and that will be a good thing to avoid conflict, considering how Obama is moving right like every general-election democrat before him.

I don't really expect anything but your hard line partisan knee jerk, so no surprise there.

Wow. That's rich!

Did I cut too deep?

The funny thing is, the image of who you think you are and the person we all see you as are completely different, my friend.

What's particularly tiring is that you do nothing but pound on Obama and his family in every thread, you support McCain on virtually everything and Obama on nothing, you slam liberals at every opportunity, you mock Obama's campaign marketing and yet give McCain's a giant free pass...and then you want the right to step back and say, "but I'm not a Republican" when it's politically expedient. Screw off! You are what you are no matter how much sand you pound.

And no. I will not shut the fuck up. Neither will you. So kiss my ass.

"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."

I'm also struck by how "live free or die" conservatives seem so comfortable with throwing the Constitution under a bus, just to pick a phrase, as long as their pocketbooks are secure.

The choice, it seems to me, is between a Democrat who will raise taxes on the more well-to-do while rolling back some of the more egregious abuses of the lawless Bush admin security state, and a Republican who will do the "tax cuts are the only economic policy I need to know about" thing but who is an enthusiastic supporter of torture, extraordinary rendition, indefinite detention, the end of Habeas Corpus as a foundational principle of our justice system, warrantless wiretapping, and, in general, completely unmonitored and unregulated domestic surveillance-- all because we simply must trust a powerful, unfettered executive to keep us from being blown up in our beds, fuck Congress and the courts.

Moreover, McCain is far more likely to embroil us in further foreign misadventures, so forget about "fiscal responsibility"-- the checkbook is always open when it comes to the Most Important War for Our Way of Life, Ever, and anyone who complains about petty matters such as deficit spending in the face of The Relentless Enemy is obviously a liberal tool.

So whither the nobel, principled libertarian? Willing to chuck the basics of what define "our freedoms" for a few bucks and a vague promise that when the internal security forces come, they won't come for you. Because everybody knows the real totalitarianism involves telling people what they can drive and what they can decimate to turn a profit.

What a fucking bunch of debased bullshit. What an embarrassment to "conservatism."

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

Escorted out? Naahhh... they'll be over in the "free speech zone" with the Recreate68 folks, and that will be a good thing to avoid conflict, considering how Obama is moving right like every general-election democrat before him.

Actually, my mantra for the rest of this campaign is this, try it...

Inhale deeply, and say with me these words:

"Obama is a politician. Politicians are cheats, liars, and frauds. Obama is a cheat, a liar, and a fraud until he proves otherwise. Talk is not action."

And no. I will not shut the fuck up. Neither will you. So kiss my ass.

Awwww Northgate... sorry I pushed your button. Smooch, smooch.

Though I find your passion compelling, I have not given McCain a pass on anything. Just because I don't mimic your liberal and droning disdain for the man does not mean I don't have issues with him. Issues I have pointed out in the past here like amnesty, continuing war in the ME, global warming BS, windfall profits BS, etc. I'm sorry you've either accidentally (or willingly) missed those comments.

It's lazy and dishonest of you to claim that I slam Obama on everything and McCain on nothing. That's just what you want to see, because that is how your mind works. Obama will be a big disaster when it comes to socializing medicine, tax increases, and most of the rest of his agenda... the Carter agenda. I have no interest in feigning support for a candidate with which I disagree with 85% of the time. And I disagree with McCain about 70-80% of the time. Liberals enjoy stoking the fires of "conservatives hate McCain" and then pretend that such a creature does not exist when they encounter one in the wild... they claim such two-sided partisan stupidity as you have above.

Just because I am afraid of where BHO will take this country does not make me a Republican... at least in the minds of thinking people. That "nuance" thing that was a shield for Kerry and is for Obama, remember? I'll gladly become a Republican again should that party reflect my values. At present it does not.

I have not been a donor or active member of the GOP since early 2004. I'm sorry I don't trash them enough to pass the Northgate test, but I really don't care enough about it to bother. Republicans spend too much, acted like assholes while in power, and have made huge concessions to play nicey-nice with the likes of Schumer, Kennedy, and Reid. And look where it has gotten them... out of power and reviled by their conservative base.The GOP has abandoned many of the principles that earned them my vote. I support and vote for people who put individual freedoms and liberty first. Call that whatever you want, Northgate.

BTW, none of this should surprise you, if you are reading national polls, especially among conservatives and libertarians. Approval ratings of the democrat congress also is now at, what, under 10%? Bush just slightly above that? No one is happy with our government right now.

And BTW... I'm still waiting for the "full force attack" on Michelle Obama you accused me of.

"Obama is a politician. Politicians are cheats, liars, and frauds. Obama is a cheat, a liar, and a fraud until he proves otherwise. Talk is not action."

There. Exhale. Repeat a few times.

OOoooommmm...mg...

Does it work with McCain as well? Cool.

This cycle is all about pandering and fraud... like every cycle before it. Just that this time around, the pandering and fraud have been taken to whacko-looney-tunes-dialed-up to 11-brazen-parallel-universe heights. And also, this time it is much more out in the open. McCain pandering to conservatives- as if we don't remember... and Obama pandering to the DNC's niche constituencies, while riding the edge between them.

I'm also struck by how "live free or die" conservatives seem so comfortable with throwing the Constitution under a bus, just to pick a phrase, as long as their pocketbooks are secure.

Yep. Those are out there. And so are people who are willing to throw it under the bus for the illusion of security.

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The choice, it seems to me, is between a Democrat who will raise taxes on the more well-to-do while rolling back some of the more egregious abuses of the lawless Bush admin security state, and a Republican who will do the "tax cuts are the only economic policy I need to know about" thing but who is an enthusiastic supporter of torture, extraordinary rendition, indefinite detention, the end of Habeas Corpus as a foundational principle of our justice system, warrantless wiretapping, and, in general, completely unmonitored and unregulated domestic surveillance-- all because we simply must trust a powerful, unfettered executive to keep us from being blown up in our beds, fuck Congress and the courts.

Obama is going to end the USA-PATRIOT ACT? That's worth a look. Too many freedoms have left us since 911, but now it's an election year... partisan battles keep up distracted while things keep slip sliding away. Time will tell if a possible President Obama will hand back the powers which Bush has seized. I doubt it, especially when they are "Bush's seizures" - not his fault. The Ron Paul campaign demonstrated the bipartisan desire for real reform in our system.

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Moreover, McCain is far more likely to embroil us in further foreign misadventures, so forget about "fiscal responsibility"-- the checkbook is always open when it comes to the Most Important War for Our Way of Life, Ever, and anyone who complains about petty matters such as deficit spending in the face of The Relentless Enemy is obviously a liberal tool.

Possibly. Hopefully McCain knows the huge amount of public disdain for action against Iran. But, as I have said before, Obama's speech at AIPAC did not really inspire much from the other side of isle.

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So whither the nobel, principled libertarian? Willing to chuck the basics of what define "our freedoms" for a few bucks and a vague promise that when the internal security forces come, they won't come for you. Because everybody knows the real totalitarianism involves telling people what they can drive and what they can decimate to turn a profit.

No, the real totalitarianism is based in gutting the Constitution, ending Habeas Corpus, while at the same time creating a system that can dictate where you child goes to school, what they learn, what you drive, wether you get or don't get a 1st, 2nd, or 4th Amendment, what basic choice you need government permission for, etc. Do you see that this is an interlocking system, adda? It's easy to go after the big encroachments... but you're doing no service if you say "well, it's OK if we dictate a whole bunch of new things, because those things are not in areas people deserve freedom." See the problem with that?

But they aren't articulate black men, "experienced" executives or war heroes.

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This cycle is all about pandering and fraud... like every cycle before it. Just that this time around, the pandering and fraud have been taken to whacko-looney-tunes-dialed-up to 11-brazen-parallel-universe heights. And also, this time it is much more out in the open. McCain pandering to conservatives- as if we don't remember... and Obama pandering to the DNC's niche constituencies, while riding the edge between them.

Grasshopper, it's very much like a bridge that gets narrower and narrower as you reach your destination. Never deviate from the path, continue and reach the goal. Because when reached, the horizon is endless.

And BTW... I'm still waiting for the "full force attack" on Michelle Obama you accused me of.

I recognize that impugning one's patriotism (in this case Michelle's) is a joke to you. And I recognize how clever you think you are by taking a comment's meaning, twisting it around, and then helping the GOP with their need to create a narrative that the Obama's as unpatriotic.

Of course when Cindy McCain blatantly plagiarizes her cooking recipes from FoodNetwork you stepped right in with the ridicule. No? Of course pointing out lies is only reserved for Al Gore.

And you could always mock and ridicule Cindy McCain for being a beauty queen heiress with a $750,000 per month credit card habit. But of course that's reserved for Theresa Heinz Kerry, being an elitist and all.

And I'm sure if a reporter made the allegation that Obama referred to his wife as a "cunt" you'd just shrug your shoulders and call the attacks "silly".

I'm sure the view from sitting on that fence is pretty. But you must be getting quite chaffed only throwing rocks to your left. Every once in a while you've gotta get down off that fence and pull the underwear out of your ass.

"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."

WHAT HAPPENED was that McCain's campaign knew Clark would be a tough opponent if he were Obama's VP and they did whatever they could to make his comments a phony controversy in order to keep Clark off the ticket.

It was a preemptive strike. Simple as that.

Tougher than Webb or Hagel? Mmmmeh. He's a smart guy and all but has his own detractors in the military. Shelton is certainly one that could be used against him.

It wasn't all THAT great a preemptive strike IMHO. It'll be forgotten soon enough and what the heck, Clark was shot in Vietnam while commanding a unit. No doubts about his purple heart.