So, I had another thought of suicide today. Don't worry, I'm not going to do it. It's just hurts to feel this way. (and yes I've tried both shrinks and meds)

I was wallowing around depressed today and so was late to an appointment. I was extremely upset at myself for this, and after I returned home my mother berated me over not washing the dishes in the sink until I was in tears.

Intellectually, all of my depressed and angry feelings are unreasonable. I know that, but emotionally, I hate myself. I really really hate myself. I hate myself every time I make any sort of mistake. I hate myself so much that my stomach knots. I feel that either I'm perfect or a loser. And of course I can't be perfect, so guess how I feel most of the time. Because I'm depressed I don't do anything I want to do (exercise, sadhana etc.) even I have the time, so I hate myself even more.

I don't know why I wrote this or what I'm asking, but I have to share my feelings with someone and I have no one in my life.

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

Konchog1, making mistakes is not a bad thing. Making mistakes does not mean you are a bad person. Making mistakes is what makes you human. Everybody makes mistakes, without exception.

Personally I get a bit suspicious when things are going well... it doesn't seem quite normal to me .. and then something goes wrong and it's "hey, welcome back to the real world!".

Having said that, sometimes we might need a change of environment to let us have a bit of space just to be who we are. Is this possible for you?

If you were in my area I would invite you to come and sample the disaster zone that is my daily life! Some days I wonder if anything will go according to plan. Often the consequences are hilarious, often frustrating, but usually quite instructive.

Hang in there, and keep practicing the MCO but really try to concentrate on the Inner Smile most. It really will pay dividends in time.

“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”

This has been an issue for me as well, manifesting in different ways. I've been reading David Brazier's "Not Everything is Impermanent". There's a chapter on hatred in it called "Hate is a Gate" that I've actually been just reading the last couple days. Hopefully you and he don't mind if I quote some of the parts related to self-hatred that have touched me and made an impact already.

David Brazier wrote:...alcohol or binging on sweets or tobacco or having an argument. All these forms of self-destructive behavior are manifestations of self-hate growing out of mishandled interactions with others. Our complex world is a lot to cope with. When we have been buffeted by circumstance, we feel that we deserve some relief and we often seek it in ways that are actually harmful to ourselves. This is the basic meaning of the Buddhist teaching of the four truths. When we find ourselves doing something of this kind, there is an open gate into a bigger life, a spiritual possibility. Looking at our own compulsiveness toward what seems a death-instinct we may find the life-instinct hidden behind it.

David Brazier wrote:The woman who criticizes her husband is manifesting hate. The first thing to do is to recognize it. It may be as much hate toward herself as toward him, or it may be hate for men in general, or her father or whatever, but in it there is a story that she has taken on, that she did not have to take on, that has turned her into a self-destructive demon. If we want to learn to love we have to start by identifying and studying ourselves as destructive demons. When one sees what sort of destructive demon one is, then it is possible to get close to some firm ground upon which a spiritual life can be built.

David Brazier wrote:When Siddhartha Gotama's love was self-directed he first lived a life of indulgence until it nauseated him. He then turned to spiritual practices, but these initial practices were tainted by hate. They were self-destructive forms of asceticism. he was too proud to look at what he was doing honestly and so it got more and more extreme. He could not discover what love was really about or what its proper object was. He was still hating himself and hating his family and hating his mother for dying on him when he was born. Hate is distorted love and it was ruining his life. Then, when he was starving and down and out, Sujata the milk maid took spontaneous pity on him out of the goodness of her heart and he thus learnt the most important lesson. She was not following a plan. She was not applying a principle. She did not use a therapeutic technique. She was not doing something for herself (she probably got into trouble later from her parents for what she did). She was just doing something loving in a simple and immediate way while he had spent his time trying to do something much more complicated. She fed him the milk and he got stronger. It was an act of love. When what had happened sank in he probably felt ashamed. He spent a whole night reflecting on his own greed, lasciviousness, envy, sloth, pride, resentment and other destructive passions that he later referred to as the hand-maidens of Death. He saw their reality, which, symbolically, is that he turned them into celestial flowers. Thus he saw the cycles of the mind, how our very refusal to look at ourselves honestly creates the necessity to invent all manner of self-stories that enslave one. Then, with the dawn, he saw the morning star rise, a beautiful phenomenon that shed its light as a sheer gift even on someone like himself and thus he knew that he was enlightened and all beings are enlightened even without knowing it. We are enlightened in that light of love and beauty shines upon us however wretched we may be, but mostly we do not see it because our spiritual eyes are closed and they are closed so that we do not see ourselves as we actually are.

Thus he saw that it is possible to cut straight through all the false stories and simply live life. Doing so he felt a great compassion for all those who were trapped as he had been in patterns of conceit and self-deception that issue as contorted thoughts, destructive actions and wasted lives. He did not have this compassion because he had learnt that it was the right way to behave, he had it because it arose naturally from living his life without complicated self-justifying stories. Thereafter his love flowed outward toward others all of its own accord. 'After that he was never alone' as it says in the Denkoroku - meaning that he was ever ministering in some way to somebody. He did not get 'burnt out' or suffer 'compassion fatigue' because his love was then genuine, not just part of another self-serving story.

I used to work in social work and many of the people I worked with were doing all manner of compassionate acts, but behind their actions one often found a hatred for the people that they saw as social oppressors. They had not faced their own dimensions of hate and so could not live life in a totally honest way and so their love could not issue forth cleanly. The self-hate buried in their efforts frequently led them to burn out. Buddha, after his big realization, gives us an example of somebody who was able to go on and on precisely because he was free from self-love and self-hate. By realizing the wholeness of things he did not need his old story any more. His perfect world was the reality right in front of him, just as Sujata's had been when she saw him in the gutter and had been moved to pity. His love had been liberated by hers. His whole life became meaningful.

David Brazier wrote:We each have a life. We each perforce must do something. Even if one is a housebound invalid one's mode of life can be loving or bitter. Even if it is bitter, behind that bitterness somewhere is a reservoir of love. All sages have taught from their own experience: liberate the reservoir of love! Worship it! Let gratitude for it over-flow your being. Don't worry that it might run dry, it won't. It is fed by a "source inexhaustible" that has nothing to do with you. That's the message. Actually, it helps enormously to realize that the source is not oneself: that in and of ourselves we are just weak vulnerable creatures, dependently originated, full of crap, but through us can flow the most amazing grace if we are willing. To become so we need to clarify the truth about ourselves.

After reading that chapter containing the above quotes, something kind of clicked in my head, something I've known a long time but never quite "grokked". Not sure about you, but I genuinely like people, even people I don't "like", or have a reason to "hate". In the past, helping people has taken me out of my own head and always helped me to feel a bit more at peace. I've helped plenty of people who've screwed me over, even after they've screwed me over, and I'm good with that. Plus I'm a family man, I only want what's best for my family, even if it means I've gotta give up sleep or my own comforts. As a result, the whole "bodhisattva" ideal, the aspiration for "bodhicitta", and wanting to help others has always resonated with me.

Meanwhile, I'm routinely destroying myself whether it's physically or emotionally. Slipping, falling, wallowing, unable to get up. My motivation, exercise, and practice routines all completely go out the window (usually periodically). The thing that finally clicked after reading that was a quote from the Dalai Lama about how we need to worry about improving ourselves before really trying to help others. I kept thinking of the metta meditation and how the first step is compassion for oneself. At first both ideas sounded somewhat selfish, an excuse not to help others. But then it dawned on me "how am I supposed to help anyone else if I can't stop my own free fall?" ... Apparently it finally sunk in, the first sentient being we need to save before truly embarking on the path of the bodhisattva to liberate others - is ourselves. Something about that thought separates the me that aspires to help others from the me that wants to wallow in misery and gets the former to take pity on the later. For the first time in a long, long while, the urge for self-destruction seems to have quieted down.

The odd thing is that it comes and goes. Much like my addiction relapses. One moment I'm fine or even filled with bliss and then an hour later I'm hating myself. Then when it fades I use reason (or recently Mahamudra) to look at it, and I realize my feelings didn't make any sense and are harmful.

Then the next day, I'm doing the same cycle again.

Qing Tian

Thanks. The Healing Sounds really work too. The first time I did them, I felt rage for a half hour and then felt really at peace.

They're great stress relievers.

PorkChop

Wow. Thanks, I just realized it, my various self caused problems aren't just a way to cope. On some level I'm purposefully harming myself because I hate myself.

I have no idea how to stop though.

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

Wow. Thanks, I just realized it, my various self caused problems aren't just a way to cope. On some level I'm purposefully harming myself because I hate myself.

I have no idea how to stop though.

That's kind of what I was talking about at the end with the bodhicitta part. Helping others, I'm good with. No motivation to help myself when I hate myself. Something about reading those passages helped separate the part of me that aspires to help others, from the part of me that hates myself. From there, the first part of me was able to look at the second part of me as a sentient being deserving of compassion, loving-kindness, and assistance along the path.

You gotta find a way to achieve some self-acceptance, warts and all...

Konchog1 wrote:So, I had another thought of suicide today. Don't worry, I'm not going to do it. It's just hurts to feel this way. (and yes I've tried both shrinks and meds)

I was wallowing around depressed today and so was late to an appointment. I was extremely upset at myself for this, and after I returned home my mother berated me over not washing the dishes in the sink until I was in tears.

Intellectually, all of my depressed and angry feelings are unreasonable. I know that, but emotionally, I hate myself. I really really hate myself. I hate myself every time I make any sort of mistake. I hate myself so much that my stomach knots. I feel that either I'm perfect or a loser. And of course I can't be perfect, so guess how I feel most of the time. Because I'm depressed I don't do anything I want to do (exercise, sadhana etc.) even I have the time, so I hate myself even more.

I don't know why I wrote this or what I'm asking, but I have to share my feelings with someone and I have no one in my life.

Must be going around man. It's just tough this feeling, you already know all the practices of being compassionate with yourself...maybe it helps to think about the fact that there are many people who don't hate you, and that your judgement of yourself is likely in error.

Beyond that, all I can say is I sympathize, i'm sure you can even find m recent thread about similar things. For me it's my temper, I act like an asshole, scare my family with yelling, and I feel horrible about it....existentially horrible, like my kids don't deserve to be saddled with a father like me. So I know the feeling...

I dunno, if these patterns are as old as Buddhism asserts them to be, then we are doing ok if we can even begin to chip away at them.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

That's exactly how I feel, intellectually I know I am better than my self view, and others say the same.

Emotionally though sometimes I can't stand being in my skin. The only thing I have found that is helpful is to sit and observe my view of myself..sort of a "mask" that might look a certain way at a certain time, it changes slightly all the time..the only constant in this state is that I can't stand the guy when I look at him. Once I have good picture of this sad sack, I do Tonglen or similar with "him", and I forgive him for being so shitty, I try to accept and have compassion for him.. and it helps.

Another thing, I assume this is not a constant, are there also times where you feel the opposite where you feel that you are great? If so, observe what nonsense the whole story is - "good" and "bad" people is such a relative thing in many ways. There are some consistent things of course, but I have had friends that everyone else hated that were for me, pivotal people that ended up helping me deeply. On the other hand, I have met lots of "good" and successful people, that to me were anything but good. The thing is, in general our view of whether we are good or bad isn't based on anything rational..so I think if you can get to the bottom of what exactly makes you feel worthless, it's a step.

I notice too from a couple of things you said, you sound lonely, are you? For me all this stuff gets magnified times 10 when isolated..doesn't necessarily mean i'm not around people, only that i'm lacking a certain kind of mundane socialization that for some reason helps keep some of this stuff at bay.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

Johnny Dangerous wrote:That's exactly how I feel, intellectually I know I am better than my self view, and others say the same.

Emotionally though sometimes I can't stand being in my skin. The only thing I have found that is helpful is to sit and observe my view of myself..sort of a "mask" that might look a certain way at a certain time, it changes slightly all the time..the only constant in this state is that I can't stand the guy when I look at him. Once I have good picture of this sad sack, I do Tonglen or similar with "him", and I forgive him for being so shitty, I try to accept and have compassion for him.. and it helps.

Another thing, I assume this is not a constant, are there also times where you feel the opposite where you feel that you are great? If so, observe what nonsense the whole story is - "good" and "bad" people is such a relative thing in many ways. There are some consistent things of course, but I have had friends that everyone else hated that were for me, pivotal people that ended up helping me deeply. On the other hand, I have met lots of "good" and successful people, that to me were anything but good. The thing is, in general our view of whether we are good or bad isn't based on anything rational..so I think if you can get to the bottom of what exactly makes you feel worthless, it's a step.

I notice too from a couple of things you said, you sound lonely, are you? For me all this stuff gets magnified times 10 when isolated..doesn't necessarily mean i'm not around people, only that i'm lacking a certain kind of mundane socialization that for some reason helps keep some of this stuff at bay.

Thanks I'll try that. And yeah, all my friends have moved away. The only people I talk with are my mom and coworkers. I'm not close to either.

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

At the same time, you love yourself beyond anything. To beat the shit out of yourself just because you do not fit into some stupid ideas others imposed on you, is madness. You made yourself believe that you should be what society wants you to be. instead of who you are. How can you find peace if you are your own torturer? Start trusting yourself more then you trust others. There is no peace without total love of every aspect of oneself.

Johnny Dangerous wrote:That's exactly how I feel, intellectually I know I am better than my self view, and others say the same.

Emotionally though sometimes I can't stand being in my skin. The only thing I have found that is helpful is to sit and observe my view of myself..sort of a "mask" that might look a certain way at a certain time, it changes slightly all the time..the only constant in this state is that I can't stand the guy when I look at him. Once I have good picture of this sad sack, I do Tonglen or similar with "him", and I forgive him for being so shitty, I try to accept and have compassion for him.. and it helps.

Another thing, I assume this is not a constant, are there also times where you feel the opposite where you feel that you are great? If so, observe what nonsense the whole story is - "good" and "bad" people is such a relative thing in many ways. There are some consistent things of course, but I have had friends that everyone else hated that were for me, pivotal people that ended up helping me deeply. On the other hand, I have met lots of "good" and successful people, that to me were anything but good. The thing is, in general our view of whether we are good or bad isn't based on anything rational..so I think if you can get to the bottom of what exactly makes you feel worthless, it's a step.

I notice too from a couple of things you said, you sound lonely, are you? For me all this stuff gets magnified times 10 when isolated..doesn't necessarily mean i'm not around people, only that i'm lacking a certain kind of mundane socialization that for some reason helps keep some of this stuff at bay.

Thanks I'll try that. And yeah, all my friends have moved away. The only people I talk with are my mom and coworkers. I'm not close to either.

I know this sounds like a bullshit answer, but is there any kind of thing you can sign up for or do for socialization... a class, something? It's seriously funny how mundane nonsense can sometimes help with some of these feelings. it not a very profound answer, but at least if you can find some way to have interaction with people you like somewhat - even if it's artificial and shallow, you might be able to have a little more grip on some of these emotions, that shit festers when you are lonely..speaking from personal experience.

Anyway I don't wanna keep blabbing but i'm glad you posted, and I hope things improve for you soon.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

Konchog1 wrote:So, I had another thought of suicide today. Don't worry, I'm not going to do it. It's just hurts to feel this way. (and yes I've tried both shrinks and meds)

I was wallowing around depressed today and so was late to an appointment. I was extremely upset at myself for this, and after I returned home my mother berated me over not washing the dishes in the sink until I was in tears.

Intellectually, all of my depressed and angry feelings are unreasonable. I know that, but emotionally, I hate myself. I really really hate myself. I hate myself every time I make any sort of mistake. I hate myself so much that my stomach knots. I feel that either I'm perfect or a loser. And of course I can't be perfect, so guess how I feel most of the time. Because I'm depressed I don't do anything I want to do (exercise, sadhana etc.) even I have the time, so I hate myself even more.

I don't know why I wrote this or what I'm asking, but I have to share my feelings with someone and I have no one in my life.

It's a funny incident, i can share this with you too. Just yesterday i got a depressive wave, coming out of the middle of sunshine. Maybe a flu is coming...

I think, it is only possible to hate oneself, if one takes the SELF as very serious and very important. "I'm a very, very important. That's why I have to be PERFECT! Otherwise I have to hate myself." This is a stupid theater and if you see through it, you can burst out laughing! ... But not right in that black moment. Then i take it as bad weather. It will past.

Four remedies:- Mettameditation for myself- Taking refuge: in the three jewels, going "into my shell", taking quiet for one day...- Turning the sight: instead of seeing a big Self with some extraneous figures (people) around, it is sometimes healthy to see this self vanishing to nothingness and looking sharpened at the "figures" as full, important human beings. It is like if you turn the focus of a camera: what was near dissolves and what was dimmed far away becomes clear and sharp.- Accept the moment like it is.

I find this helpfull.And yes, Johnny Dangerous, meeting people, having a coffee and smalltalk can be like balm.

I have decided to stick with love.Hate is too great a burden to bear.- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

If the thought of demons Never rises in your mind, You need not fear the demon hosts around you. It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned, there are neither buddhas or demons. He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue, will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion. Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

I think the first step is acceptance. Before anything else. You can't deal with what is happening unless you accept what is happening. Feelings are what they are: we typically cannot control our feelings any more than we can control the weather. But when it rains, I don't try to pretend it's not raining. And I don't get upset with the rain--- rain just happens. I accept that it is raining and go from there.

Accepting the truth of pain is actually learning the truth of suffering, the first Noble Truth. We all suffer. Suffering is a part of life. How to handle this suffering? This is where the teaching of the dharma comes in. It is easy: it starts with the precepts. No one is perfect at the precepts, but we try. You get good by trying over and over again. Once we have made some way with precepts, then it is possible to meditate. Maybe not for long at first: perhaps 5 minutes, or even 1 minute. But a little is better than none. LIttle actions, over time, lead to changes. This is how the universe works.

But we can't deal with suffering if we don't accept it. Accepting it, for me, is the first step.

Konchog1 wrote:I don't know why I wrote this or what I'm asking, but I have to share my feelings with someone and I have no one in my life.

The Great Way is not difficultIf only there is no picking or choosing--- Xin Xin Ming

Konchog1 wrote:So, I had another thought of suicide today. Don't worry, I'm not going to do it. It's just hurts to feel this way. (and yes I've tried both shrinks and meds)

I was wallowing around depressed today and so was late to an appointment. I was extremely upset at myself for this, and after I returned home my mother berated me over not washing the dishes in the sink until I was in tears.

Intellectually, all of my depressed and angry feelings are unreasonable. I know that, but emotionally, I hate myself. I really really hate myself. I hate myself every time I make any sort of mistake. I hate myself so much that my stomach knots. I feel that either I'm perfect or a loser. And of course I can't be perfect, so guess how I feel most of the time. Because I'm depressed I don't do anything I want to do (exercise, sadhana etc.) even I have the time, so I hate myself even more.

I don't know why I wrote this or what I'm asking, but I have to share my feelings with someone and I have no one in my life.

To see yourself as worthy of hatred in the first place -rather than of an indifferent or positive regard- you have to have felt yourself to be the centre of the universe to begin with, i.e. you have to be an ordinary sentient being. If you try instead to see yourself as 'one of many', then you may ask how the nature of this one person -whose supposed vileness has yet to suck the earth into a supernatural black hole - could be sooo 'wrong' as to merit their own hate.

On the other hand, those who don't effortlessly 'fit into some stupid ideas others imposed on (them)' already, or find themselves being 'what society wants them to be' are clearly in that situtation because of positive karma inherited from previous lives, or (if you don't believe in karma) because of good luck. This isn't to say that an unusual mind reflects negative past karma in and of itself, since much the same mind could have developed within a species for which it was a paragon of 'normal'. The mismatch is what presents the obstacles that trigger suffering, but the challenge is to realise that there needn't be any suffering (self-hatred for example) beyond what others may inflict directly, and to live accordingly. It's worth a try, as the negative impact of self-hate can far outlive the feeling itself.

Nonetheless, it seems that people 'hate themselves' for many reasons - apart from just feeling or believing themselves to be 'different'