AuthorTopic: If Saban was our coach........... (Read 2493 times)

he would either have a stroke on the sideline or there would be reports of mass casualties from practice the following week.

Point being, we are who we are b/c of talent. You can't tell me that coaches who have been successful at every other stop on their career have all of a sudden forgotten how to coach. Until we upgrade the talent we have on the field we should get behind the staff and be patient. Extremely patient b/c this is going to take time to correct.

he would either have a stroke on the sideline or there would be reports of mass casualties from practice the following week.

Point being, we are who we are b/c of talent. You can't tell me that coaches who have been successful at every other stop on their career have all of a sudden forgotten how to coach. Until we upgrade the talent we have on the field we should get behind the staff and be patient. Extremely patient b/c this is going to take time to correct.

I know, I know, I know. I've heard 3 years, then 3-4 years and most recently conventional wisdom is saying 3-5 years.

BTW...I really get tired of hearing we don't have "talent on the field". We do. Quit bashing the players.

I know, I know, I know. I've heard 3 years, then 3-4 years and most recently conventional wisdom is saying 3-5 years.

BTW...I really get tired of hearing we don't have "talent on the field". We do. Quit bashing the players.

Reality is sometimes tough to accept, especially when you change systems on both sides of the ball. You can't simply "plug and play" players who were recruited for a different system and expect them to perform at a high level in yet a different system from that for which they were recruited. I know that is difficult for some to get, especially when you wanted a different HC than Bielema, but that is simply the truth.

Reality is sometimes tough to accept, especially when you change systems on both sides of the ball. You can't simply "plug and play" players who were recruited for a different system and expect them to perform at a high level in yet a different system from that for which they were recruited. I know that is difficult for some to get, especially when you wanted a different HC than Bielema, but that is simply the truth.

Reality is sometimes tough to accept, especially when you change systems on both sides of the ball. You can't simply "plug and play" players who were recruited for a different system and expect them to perform at a high level in yet a different system from that for which they were recruited. I know that is difficult for some to get, especially when you wanted a different HC than Bielema, but that is simply the truth.

I get what you're saying.

Maybe the problem is that we are trying to "plug and play" Bielema's system onto players The Lord created for a different system.

Rome wasn't built in one day. Is it the fault of the citizens/players? Or is it the fault of Caesar/coach?

For all we know the assistant coaches have been begging, stealing and borrowing to convince Bielema to GRADUALLY WORK INTO BIELEMA BALL. We DONT KNOW.

But this forum seems only to want to put it on the players and that is not right.

Bielema is forcing a round peg (the players) into HIS SQUARE HOLE. That much should be obvious.

Is it beyond the realm of reason to take a deep breath and question it? Apparently on Hogville it is.

Maybe the problem is that we are trying to "plug and play" Bielema's system onto players The Lord created for a different system.

Rome wasn't built in one day. Is it the fault of the citizens/players? Or is it the fault of Caesar/coach?

For all we know the assistant coaches have been begging, stealing and borrowing to convince Bielema to GRADUALLY WORK INTO BIELEMA BALL. We DONT KNOW.

But this forum seems only to want to put it on the players and that is not right.

Bielema is forcing a round peg (the players) into HIS SQUARE HOLE. That much should be obvious.

Is it beyond the realm of reason to take a deep breath and question it? Apparently on Hogville it is.

I think you are wrong in thinking that the majority of rational posters don't understand that Bielema is trying to work his system with someone elses players. He has even said that. He realizes that it is a process of altering skills and thought processes to get them where he needs them to be to execute his offense and defense.

That isn't as if it has been a deep, dark secret. He has said many times, "there aren't any shortcuts". That is just another way of saying that we have a long way to go not only in terms of how you execute play, but in terms of the players with the particular skills that are needed to accomplish that goal.

When we started this season I thought that we had enough talented players who simply gave up last year with what happened with BP, that would be able to make this system "go" under a new HC even with a new and different system. I thought the O-Line would be productive in the run game and they have been, but they have also had the deck stacked against them because we simply did not throw the ball better and suffered due to an early injury to our starting QB.

But as this season has progressed I have seen defensive players who couldn't seem to assimilate a newer defensive system and execute run, coverage and tackling responsibilities. Do I put that on the staff who has previously produced really good defenses? No. This is a talent issue where though kids want to be in the right position they either can't make proper reads and think fast, or they simply don't have the physical tools to match up with opponents receivers. Does it make me sad? Well sure it does, but I am not going to irrationally blame a quality staff for inheriting a bunch of kids that simply don't have the physical tools (over all and on average) to match up with the receivers that opponents put on the field.

This is going to take some building and it is going to take time. I want to see improvement just like anyone else but after having seen how this season has gone down, I know that this rebuilding process in terms of all positions, is going to take another 2-3 years.

That isn't bashing players. It is calling it like it is.Did you notice how much more effective Allen was from shotgun yesterday?

There is a reason. The game is too fast for him under center. Different systems.It is clearly evident on defense as well.

I think this team will be MUCH better next year.

You may be right but how often near the end of a game --when the defense is playing soft and prevent --does the offense march down the field and perhaps score -- when it doesn't matter--except maybe to the gamblers.

I think you are wrong in thinking that the majority of rational posters don't understand that Bielema is trying to work his system with someone elses players. He has even said that. He realizes that it is a process of altering skills and thought processes to get them where he needs them to be to execute his offense and defense.

That isn't as if it has been a deep, dark secret. He has said many times, "there aren't any shortcuts". That is just another way of saying that we have a long way to go not only in terms of how you execute play, but in terms of the players with the particular skills that are needed to accomplish that goal.

When we started this season I thought that we had enough talented players who simply gave up last year with what happened with BP, that would be able to make this system "go" under a new HC even with a new and different system. I thought the O-Line would be productive in the run game and they have been, but they have also had the deck stacked against them because we simply did not throw the ball better and suffered due to an early injury to our starting QB.

But as this season has progressed I have seen defensive players who couldn't seem to assimilate a newer defensive system and execute run, coverage and tackling responsibilities. Do I put that on the staff who has previously produced really good defenses? No. This is a talent issue where though kids want to be in the right position they either can't make proper reads and think fast, or they simply don't have the physical tools to match up with opponents receivers. Does it make me sad? Well sure it does, but I am not going to irrationally blame a quality staff for inheriting a bunch of kids that simply don't have the physical tools (over all and on average) to match up with the receivers that opponents put on the field.

This is going to take some building and it is going to take time. I want to see improvement just like anyone else but after having seen how this season has gone down, I know that this rebuilding process in terms of all positions, is going to take another 2-3 years.

Great! Then in year 2-3 you become me because there is a growing contingent now looking at 4-5 years. When you get to year 2-3 there will be a whole other set of "extenuating circumstances" to face.

I'll be honest, we messed up big time not Hiring Gus. MANY knew it on day one. We have what we have and that won't change because Long is an executive and looks at a bigger picture than wins/losses. I get that. Look at how he kicked and screamed resisting letting Pelphry go. It took former Razorback players to get Long to go after Anderson. I see Gus as another Anderson. We let a good one go. We got lucky and got Anderson back.

It's the American way to be outspoken about those in authority. Bielema is a (very) big boy. He can take it. I suspect he is at his wits end himself. I'm sure he is just as surprised to be damn near winless in the SEC. SURELY this summer he wouldn't have shot his mouth off so bad if he had thought we would be the bottom dweller.....would he have? Of course not. He GROSSLY UNDERESTIMATED the SEC, SEC West I suspect.

If Coach Saban were here he would be finding athletes to fit into his system. The one thing he requires most of all is players who fit into the "plan". Been very successful at doing so.

Call it the Nick Saban doctrine of recruiting. It is meticulous, methodical and relentless in every single aspect of the recruiting process.

"Saban's model is based on what I would call a series of critical factors," said ESPN's national director of football recruiting, Tom Luginbill. "Those factors are some traits like athletic ability and a player's personality. They measure their conduct [off the field] as well. It's a whole set of parameters position by position when they recruit. It's very similar to the [Bill] Belichick mold of fitting guys into spots or positions that work best for them."

Belichick, Bill Parcells and other player pro directors all influenced Saban and his recruiting approach. It's a five-phase process that first begins with identifying needs of your current personnel based on attrition two to three years down the line out of a five-year player cycle.

Second, Saban sets a standard at each position, identifying key characteristics within each position with the offensive and defensive systems that he runs. Each prospect who is recruited, depending on the position, has to meet certain measurables (height, weight, speed, etc.), among other criteria. Rarely will Saban deviate.

"They take some heat publicly because there could be a big-time guy that may not meet their critical factors," Luginbill said. "It doesn't mean he's not a great player. It just means he's not the right fit for Alabama. You know if Alabama takes a corner under 5-foot-11 he better be so good in the other critical areas he meets because of how they run their scheme. They would have to be so convinced. There are undersized linebackers that can run all around college football. They can be great players and big recruits but they may not meet Alabama's height, weight standard for the position."

Thirdly, he watches the tape and identifies the standards of that particular recruit and the position he plays.

Next, the real evaluation process begins with the new recruits. Names of prospects are put into a system and lots of tape is evaluated. The area coach gets first look, then it's passed on to the position coach, then to the coordinator and finally to the head coach.

The fifth and final phase is a nonstop 12-month cycle of looking at the recruiting board and talking about all the player's critical factors. Some of those factors include size, speed, character and academics, but other things are brought into consideration as well. Have they been on campus? Do they have a connection to Alabama or has a family member attended the school?

Over the course of a recruiting cycle, the staff will meet roughly four times a week between the months of February and August and a few times a week for the duration to discuss the recruiting board. It's fluid and there's always movement of recruits depending on information uncovered -- positive or negative. Movement on the board can also be impacted based on what happens with players already on the team, including injuries or late bloomers, etc. It varies day to day and meeting to meeting.

You also have to find out what's important to each recruit. What about their character? Are they a student in the classroom? Are they a student of the game? Do they love football or just like to wear the uniform? To be honest, recruiting is more like the NFL because it has been so intensive. We are pretty darn thorough."

Great! Then in year 2-3 you become me because there is a growing contingent now looking at 4-5 years. When you get to year 2-3 there will be a whole other set of "extenuating circumstances" to face.

I'll be honest, we messed up big time not Hiring Gus. MANY knew it on day one. We have what we have and that won't change because Long is an executive and looks at a bigger picture than wins/losses. I get that. Look at how he kicked and screamed resisting letting Pelphry go. It took former Razorback players to get Long to go after Anderson. I see Gus as another Anderson. We let a good one go. We got lucky and got Anderson back.

It's the American way to be outspoken about those in authority. Bielema is a (very) big boy. He can take it. I suspect he is at his wits end himself. I'm sure he is just as surprised to be damn near winless in the SEC. SURELY this summer he wouldn't have shot his mouth off so bad if he had thought we would be the bottom dweller.....would he have? Of course not. He GROSSLY UNDERESTIMATED the SEC, SEC West I suspect.

How would have any knowledge to believe that is true? It is even more possible that he knew the enormity of the task and asked for money to hire the assistants it would take to make a team.

The problem IS the players. And it IS the coaches. When things are this awful, it's not one thing. It's a cycle of how one bad thing (a bad play, a bad play call) feeds the next.

Some of the players just aren't physically able to complete against the rest of the SEC. Most of the obvious ones are on defense. Is there any resemblance between our LBs and DBs to Alabama's? Or LSU's?

It's harder to to use the "we don't have talent" blanket statement on offense. We certainly have it at running back. But when we don't make a basic throw, or a catch, is that not having talent? Or just not making a play that has to be made? Sure, it's clear we don't have a big spectacular playmaking WR like the Aggies' Mike Evans. (And we DO have to find one.) But we do have some guys who are fast and athletic, some are seniors, who are letting balls bounce off their hands. Many routine plays (forget acrobatic catches) are not being made. As for Brandon Allen, most would say he's not the guy. I'm certainly not going to defend him...but how different would his line look if our receivers hang on to dropped TD passes?

Which brings me to coaching. Sure, that could be better too, at times. (See Rutgers second half.) And like everyone, I think they could do a better job designing offenses and defenses around the players we have. But how much CAN they do? How many problems can they mask? If we simply don't have a defensive back who can cover or make a play on the ball, I don't know what the coaches can do. Except recruit guys who can. THIS is how I'll judge them in the future.

Perhaps, but CBB himself said he didn't look at any old film of the Razorback squad.

Trusts me, I'm sure he wishes he could "walk back" his shots across the bow his lip spouted off before he even played one down of SEC football.

That is most likely true. It takes people time to learn to not shoot of their mouth with uninformed opinion or bombast. It was a hard lesson for me and my job now depends on giving people the best counsel I can in their situation. You have to learn to consider ALL the variables when you speak.

The problem IS the players. And it IS the coaches. When things are this awful, it's not one thing. It's a cycle of how one bad thing (a bad play, a bad play call) feeds the next.

Some of the players just aren't physically able to complete against the rest of the SEC. Most of the obvious ones are on defense. Is there any resemblance between our LBs and DBs to Alabama's? Or LSU's?

It's harder to to use the "we don't have talent" blanket statement on offense. We certainly have it at running back. But when we don't make a basic throw, or a catch, is that not having talent? Or just not making a play that has to be made? Sure, it's clear we don't have a big spectacular playmaking WR like the Aggies' Mike Evans. (And we DO have to find one.) But we do have some guys who are fast and athletic, some are seniors, who are letting balls bounce off their hands. Many routine plays (forget acrobatic catches) are not being made. As for Brandon Allen, most would say he's not the guy. I'm certainly not going to defend him...but how different would his line look if our receivers hang on to dropped TD passes?

Which brings me to coaching. Sure, that could be better too, at times. (See Rutgers second half.) And like everyone, I think they could do a better job designing offenses and defenses around the players we have. But how much CAN they do? How many problems can they mask? If we simply don't have a defensive back who can cover or make a play on the ball, I don't know what the coaches can do. Except recruit guys who can. THIS is how I'll judge them in the future.

The problem IS the players. And it IS the coaches. When things are this awful, it's not one thing. It's a cycle of how one bad thing (a bad play, a bad play call) feeds the next.

Some of the players just aren't physically able to complete against the rest of the SEC. Most of the obvious ones are on defense. Is there any resemblance between our LBs and DBs to Alabama's? Or LSU's?

It's harder to to use the "we don't have talent" blanket statement on offense. We certainly have it at running back. But when we don't make a basic throw, or a catch, is that not having talent? Or just not making a play that has to be made? Sure, it's clear we don't have a big spectacular playmaking WR like the Aggies' Mike Evans. (And we DO have to find one.) But we do have some guys who are fast and athletic, some are seniors, who are letting balls bounce off their hands. Many routine plays (forget acrobatic catches) are not being made. As for Brandon Allen, most would say he's not the guy. I'm certainly not going to defend him...but how different would his line look if our receivers hang on to dropped TD passes?

Which brings me to coaching. Sure, that could be better too, at times. (See Rutgers second half.) And like everyone, I think they could do a better job designing offenses and defenses around the players we have. But how much CAN they do? How many problems can they mask? If we simply don't have a defensive back who can cover or make a play on the ball, I don't know what the coaches can do. Except recruit guys who can. THIS is how I'll judge them in the future.

Do you recall us getting burned on ANY blitzes? I honestly don't. It seems like when we have a well timed, disguised blitz...it works. I'm no coach, I'm sure there are reasons for what they do and don't do.

I'm not sure how much of what is going on is Bielema being stubborn. You do know articles have been written from information from former coaches of his describing this trait. He had a lot of coaching turnover....it wasn't ALL about Alvarez's tight pockets.

Do you recall us getting burned on ANY blitzes? I honestly don't. It seems like when we have a well timed, disguised blitz...it works. I'm no coach, I'm sure there are reasons for what they do and don't do.

I'm not sure how much of what is going on is Bielema being stubborn. You do know articles have been written from information from former coaches of his describing this trait. He had a lot of coaching turnover....it wasn't ALL about Alvarez's tight pockets.

My initial post wasn't meant as a bash on the players but more for a call to accept reality. It doesn't matter who our coach is, there is only so much too work with on this team.

There are some similarities b/t this team and my daughters soccer team. For the last two years my daughter's soccer coach has won the under 10 league championship. This years team will keep him from making it 3 in a row. We are bad, not awful but not good either. Watching my daughter's team against some of the others it is obvious that can't compete with them physically or mentally. Mentally?? Yes, mentally even. As a whole the team is timid and lacks aggression. Is it something the coach can correct? Likely never. Knowing my daughter's personality, all the yelling and cussing in the world wouldn't make a bit of difference in her performance. She is who she is.

This team, the razorbacks, are who they are. We can gripe and complain all we want about the coaching or call the players names but it won't change a thing. They are who they are. In my daughters league we saw that early on and accepted the reality of the situation. Instead of yelling at them we started yelling louder for them. Each Saturday our sideline is the loudest and most boisterous and yet each Saturday we continue to lose. We found the games more enjoyable as did our kids, despite the loses.

As a fan base we need to recognize the ceiling of this team, accept it and keep cheering. Yelling, cussing, complaining etc won't change but will make you more disgruntled. Look for the silver lining, it's there but they are young and need us to encourage them on to greater things.

he would either have a stroke on the sideline or there would be reports of mass casualties from practice the following week.

Point being, we are who we are b/c of talent. You can't tell me that coaches who have been successful at every other stop on their career have all of a sudden forgotten how to coach. Until we upgrade the talent we have on the field we should get behind the staff and be patient. Extremely patient b/c this is going to take time to correct.

Plus your right....Bielema shot his mouth off and should have looked at some film before he did that.

he would either have a stroke on the sideline or there would be reports of mass casualties from practice the following week.

Point being, we are who we are b/c of talent. You can't tell me that coaches who have been successful at every other stop on their career have all of a sudden forgotten how to coach. Until we upgrade the talent we have on the field we should get behind the staff and be patient. Extremely patient b/c this is going to take time to correct.

At this stage of the process the results would be the same. Even Saban can't win until he gets the talent and his system in place. The question is how long would it take him?

Do you recall us getting burned on ANY blitzes? I honestly don't. It seems like when we have a well timed, disguised blitz...it works. I'm no coach, I'm sure there are reasons for what they do and don't do.

I'm not sure how much of what is going on is Bielema being stubborn. You do know articles have been written from information from former coaches of his describing this trait. He had a lot of coaching turnover....it wasn't ALL about Alvarez's tight pockets.

We blitzed a few times and Wallace hit his hot receiver easily. He is a pretty good QB with good receivers and a decent line. That's why they were better and he had a career day also due to our poor pass defense.

Nah....Nah it wouldn't. He would have beat'n A&M and Rutgers for sure. IMHO.

Based on what objective evidence? Which players in the defensive backfield would have been better defenders? Which linebackers would have been better? And which receivers would have caught the ball better?

Great! Then in year 2-3 you become me because there is a growing contingent now looking at 4-5 years. When you get to year 2-3 there will be a whole other set of "extenuating circumstances" to face.

I'll be honest, we messed up big time not Hiring Gus. MANY knew it on day one. We have what we have and that won't change because Long is an executive and looks at a bigger picture than wins/losses. I get that. Look at how he kicked and screamed resisting letting Pelphry go. It took former Razorback players to get Long to go after Anderson. I see Gus as another Anderson. We let a good one go. We got lucky and got Anderson back.

It's the American way to be outspoken about those in authority. Bielema is a (very) big boy. He can take it. I suspect he is at his wits end himself. I'm sure he is just as surprised to be damn near winless in the SEC. SURELY this summer he wouldn't have shot his mouth off so bad if he had thought we would be the bottom dweller.....would he have? Of course not. He GROSSLY UNDERESTIMATED the SEC, SEC West I suspect.

It depends what you're talking about.

We are hopefully 3 years away from being good and five years away from being great.