Wednesday, December 26, 2012

In the August, 2006 issue of Scientific American magazine page 34 Michael Shermer’s “Skeptic” column is devoted to the topic of “Folk Science”, which seems to mean any beliefs not based on scientific experiments.

One example of folk science is prayer. Shermer cites a study published in the April, 2006 American Heart Journal. In this study, about 1,000 heart surgery patients were prayed for by members of several religious congregations and were found to have no better outcome than other heart surgery patients. According to Shermer this proves conclusively that prayer for sick people does not help them.

The weakness of this conclusion is appalling.

Obviously, prayer involves communicating with an intelligent being who has free will. Therefore the person offering the prayer, the manner of its offering, the subject of the prayer and other circumstances may be crucial. It is not as simple a process as administering a drug to heart surgery patients. Prayer is not a medication; it involves creating a relationship.

To give an analogy, let’s say I want to do an experiment to discover whether or not writing letters to the President of the United States has any affect. One thousand people will write to the President asking that their federal income tax be lowered. Then we will check to see if their taxes drop compared to other people or not. If not, then we can conclude scientifically that the President either does not exist or he never reads his mail.

An experiment like that is obviously absurd junk science which no one would take seriously. Therefore one wonders why Dr. Shermer finds the AHJ study to be so compelling and in fact why the editors of Scientific American magazine even published his column. Could there be a need in scientific community to grasp at any straw which seems to disprove monotheism, thereby discrediting the clergy and increasing their own prestige?

Religion people of all stripes seem prone to deceiving themselves on these kinds of matters:

There are faith healers who don’t heal – but the practice continues and many believers spread stories.

There is the phenomenon of every good thing that happens saying it was a miracle from G-d. The next week six girl scouts will be killed on a bus and no one says anything.

There is a bustling industry of hashgacha pratis stories – concocted? Real? And isn’t virtually everything that happens hashgacha pratis?

I remember hearing that during the first Gulf War the black hats left Israel by the thousands (Chabad did not.)

This is after of course big rabbis talking about the Torah community having protection from Hashem.

Would they stay in Mea Shearim if the IDF pulled out? I doubt it.

No one seems to buy it when it gets down to the nitty gritty.

We just had 12/21/12 – and around the world people needed to be reassured that nothing was going to happen.

We are all prone to superstition, and fear of the unknown.

Religion people take advantage of this – fear mongering.

I say the same thing every time: Fear Mongering 101 class – NEVER put down a specific date for the end of the world, or the rapture or anything. BIG mistake. HUGE. Entire churches shut their doors when the minister does this!

NEVER let anything be testable! That is religious fear mongering 101.

I think the Jews have done a good job with this – except for the deadline for moshiach – 227 short years away!

I asked one frum Jew about this who was into the topic. When I suggested it would be a watershed moment if moshiach did not come by then he said that it would not: there is a good chance we got the date wrong. There is at least one opinion (currently not to be held by) that 6000 is not the deadline!

The backtracking begins…Judaism will survive the close call, the ikkurim on this matter will be revised. Phew – that was a close one…

R. Eleazar said: Since the destruction of the Temple, the gates of prayer are locked, for it is written, Also when I cry out, he shutteth out my prayer. Yet though the gates of prayer are locked, the gates of tears are not, for it is written, Hear my prayer, O Lord, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears.

"Judaism is pretty much all about past events - creation, the exodus, Mount Sinai. History is never testable. You believe it or you don't."

Another good insight, JP! You're batting 2 for 2.

This is contrasted to Christianity, which although has its own history, is very focused on the future-- salvation, rapture, reincarnation, etc. I think that this difference explains a lot-- especially in terms of the mass abandonment of Judaism over the past 200 years, in the western world. This didn't happen with Jews in the Muslim world, which is also focuses on the past.

Tuvia, you'll be dead a long time before 227 years from now. I would worry more about how that's going to go.

By the way, I apologize if you posted this before and I deleted it. I actually get tons of spam (a lot of it seems to be in Korean or Russian) which I delete and sometimes I hit a real post by mistake.

Personally I think that the benefit of prayer is that it is like meditation, and also promotes community fellowship. These aren't bad things. But whenever I see the Heredim come out for a special mass prayer for something like the government to fall or for the recovery of their 102 year old leader or something like that, I laugh at them. Those poor superstitious fools really believe it.

The Taxpayer March on Washington was a Tea Party protest march from Freedom Plaza to the United States Capitol that was held on September 12, 2009, in Washington, D.C. The protesters rallied against what they consider big government, the dismantling of free market capitalism, abortion, and President Barack Obama's proposals on health care reform, taxation, and federal spending, among other issues. Event organizers also reported a range of attendance. FreedomWorks suggested between 600,000 to 800,000 participants while National Taxpayers Union said 200,000 to 300,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxpayer_March_on_Washington

Was it completely successful? Did it have some success? And if not does that prove that all demonstrations are pointless because the United States government is a myth and doesn't really exist?

According to what you wrote, the scientist concluded that prayer does not help sick people. He did not write that the experiment proves there is no God or God doesn't listen or whatever.

To use your analogy, your experiment of having 1000 people write to the president may prove that writing to the president does nothing for people's income tax rate. It has nothing to do with whether the president exists.

I would consider your analogy interesting, but to be in inappropriate anthropomorphism.The US government is not omnicient, omnipresent, omnipotent. God supposedly is.

Given that prayer isn't testable, can you say anything at all about the "track record" of the effectiveness of prayer? The success rate?

I put prayer in the same category as pseudoscientific things like homeopathy, ESP, the anti-vaccination movement, and palm reading. Never testable or falsifiable, you can't change anybody's mind about it, you either believe it or you don't (or you make money off it it, like homeopathy). You'll only get anecdotal reports or personal testimonials.

I don't think looking at a few thousands letters to the White House would tell you much about whether anyone is reading them or if they made a difference. And besides the number of letters, what about who the author of the letters are. A letter from the president of Harvard university and the editor in chief of the New York Times might might mean more than a letter from John Q. Towndrunk in Boonseville, Oklahoma.

Prayer may change God's decision because it has changed the situation. Now that you have humbled yourself before God in prayer, you may be more worthy of His mercy. Or not. He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9

YOu believe in prayer, when you experience it's power...There is so much skepticism here about prayer. I think that is because prayer is very often a personal thing. I have a request, I pray- G-d answers my prayers. But its only a personal experience- I cant use it to prove the existance of G-d to others, unless they expereince the circumstance with me. I can use it to prove G-ds existance to myself, however- every time a prayer is answered and i feel G-ds Presence, and when circumstances seem to indicate my prayers would not be answered. And when my prayers aren't answered immeidiately- I know its a challenge and test, and I draw faith from G-ds Providence in my life and His answers to my previous experiences.there is a prayer to say when you lose something, and then you can find it. Whenever I say it, it works, no matter how long an object was lost for. Soon after I say the prayer I find it. Another prayer is there to say when you are being chased by a dog. I am scared of dogs- every time i see one about to come near in a threatening way, I say the prayer and they just calmly back away. It works ever time! And I see they dont back away from others. These are both amazing examples of how I experience the power of prayer, on a simple level, on a constant basis in my life.

You could get the same result by praying to the sun or rain gods, or Jesus, and many people do. Prayer as meditation may have a calming, therapeutic effect. Ancient man discovered this a long time ago.

There is a reason people besides Jews developed rituals such as rain dances, idols, amulets, etc and continue to this day. It obviously helped them in some way, psychologically or otherwise. Our argument is about how and why.

You are obviously not cloistered, and are a well read intelligent man. You look at other religions, cults, holy books and traditions in the world, each with their own unique claims, stories, beliefs and rituals.

You see that Judaism is but one of them, and can't really be proven or disproven any more than any other faith. (all religions see to it that they can't be disproven!)

You see the errors in biblical and rabbinic texts, and their borrowing of ideas from other (and older) faiths.

You see how OJ has had to change itself to adapt to (and adopt) many values and realities in a modern world, and dispense with others.

You look at the obvious chaos and suffering that exists on earth.

You see how scientific progress has been explaining more and more phenomena that previously were the exclusive domain of religion.

To me these things make it glaringly obvious that Judaism, like other religions, is a human invention and OJ is a human project.

How do you keep your absolute faith in OJ? How do you do it? Please answer me honestly, rather than just reversing the question back at me.

Well, its your narrative, anyway. One could spin that narrative many different ways that would be plausible, with completely different outcomes, but that wouldn't make me believe its truth. (I wont elaborate)

seems to be totally different than the Israelite religion described in the Torah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Contents

The Ugarit findings if anything seem to highlight the Torah's remarkable originality.

"Well, its your narrative, anyway."

I am just making the most logical deductions based on the most well known facts about nature and history. Of course I don't expect to pursuade everyone, anymore than the curators of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

"Since the 1930s these texts have opened some initial understanding of the Canaanite mythological world and religion. The Baal cycle represents Baal's destruction of Yam (the chaos sea monster), demonstrating the relationship of Canaanite chaoskampf with those of Mesopotamia and the Aegean: a warrior god rises up as the hero of the new pantheon to defeat chaos and bring order."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit#Ugaritic_religion

After having personally read or heard read the entire Torah at least a hundred times, this doesn't ring a bell to me.

Generic words like "god" or "almighty" or "lord" and practices such as animal sacrifice may be common to dozens of unrelated religions and obviously prove nothing.

Judaism is different than the earlier religionsin two significant ways. The other religions don't have a god that transcends the Universe, physically and temporally. Judaism does. Where did that come from? And Judaism has a National Revelation as part of its authentic history.

Judaism is different than the earlier religionsin two significant ways. The other religions don't have a god that transcends the Universe, physically and temporally. Judaism does. Where did that come from? And Judaism has a National Revelation as part of its authentic history.

Linguistic similarities between the Torah and Ugarit texts should not surprise Orthodox Jews. The Dispersion (Genesis 11) occurred in 1765 BCE. According to Midrash Tanchuma (Buber ed.), Noach 28, prior to the Dispersion all people spoke Hebrew. "El" just means "power".

Animal sacrifices were universal in ancient times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sacrifice

In the Torah, we first see it with Abel.

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering; (Genesis 4:4)

I guess the rabbis didn't know history very well, because biblical Hebrew as we know it did not appear for almost a thousand years after that, unless you want to consider Phonecian or Canaanite as Hebrew. (at least according to the available evidence)

"Animal sacrifices were universal in ancient times." As were many other practices. That's my point.

BTW the Babel story is a nice legend the ancient Bible authors had to invent (or adopt from other nations legends, like the flood), in order to explain why there are so many different languages if all of humanity descended from a Hebrew speaking Adam. Furthermore, the is ample evidence of languages before Babel

There are 2 billion Christians who believe in the Dvineorigin of the Bible. Same goes fro 1 billion Muslims.

Dave:

It seems to me that you are making the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy. Anyway, it isn't supprising hat there would be similarities between ancient religions and the Bible. There was prophecy before the Torah was given. The Avos had an influence on all the people around them. this tend to confirm that.

Did you ever think – I don’t mean this saracastically – really, did you ever think that the reason we have national revelation is because we are a people and a tribe, and Judaism is not simply a religion, but something different?

Like, Christianity and Islam are NOT a “people.” We are different than a religion. And therefore our mythology – or whatever you wish to call it, our creation story – fits us in a way it would not have to fit a true religion.

I also notice that some say the Aztecs (another “people”) have a national revelation. But also, I have heard that American Indian tribes have things they did collectively (spiritual things.) Like fly around as a group or something – or their ancestors.

Anyway, doesn’t it sort of make sense that a “tribe” would do things together? Sort of the reflection of tribal identity – we are all in it together, we are equals, etc?

DAve Myself being a Jew with Jewish history, looking at the evidence, there does not seem to be a good enough reason not to believe in Jewish history.Can you disprove the mass revelation?You may say I cant prove it, but to me it seems evident that it happened so long as you can't disprove it. To me it is honestly the most plausible, sensible explanation of Jewish history and heritage.

It's impossible to disprove prayer from any single experiment as one could always say the prayers were not good enough or whatever. The important question is, in general is there a significant difference between those who pray vs. those who don't. The answer, of course, is no.

I once heard a lecture from some Rabbi who answered this question by saying that God would not want to make it obvious that He exists, therefore when people pray He is careful to help others who didn't pray to ensure people wouldn't know Him. (I wonder if some extreme religious friends of mine believed this if they would stop praying, after all they wouldn't want to help out a horrible evil atheist!?)I don't think I have to speak out the stupidity of this approach, I will only say this. The way religious apologetic's always weave out of every phenomenon or question that might disturb their belief, is disgusting. So much for the God of the Torah who was constantly busy showing Himself and His great powers!

About Me

I am an Orthodox Jew and I live in Rockland County, NY.
I was raised as a non-practicing Lutheran by my adopted parents and I converted to Judaism at age 16.
This blog as a rule follows the teachings of the Lithuanian rabbinical seminaries of the 1920s and 1930s. Specifically, I have been very influenced by the recordings and writings of Rabbi Avigdor Miller obm.
Click for more details about me.