16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.’”

I think it is clear that God simply does not like amputees (or people with defects) and thus wont heal them. I think it is a reminder of him being an imperfect creator.

Because I'm watching the Olympics and don't want to do the research: The text says descendants of Aaron, do we know whom he is said to have fathered? I'd like to know if to a theist this text applies to everyone or only to certain people.

In the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an, Aaron who is often called "'Aaron the Priest"' and once Aaron the Levite (Exodus 4:14), was the older brother of Moses,

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Descendants

Aaron married Elisheba, daughter of Amminadab and sister of Nahshon (Exodus 6:23) of the tribe of Judah. The sons of Aaron were Eleazar, Ithamar, and Nadab and Abihu.[42] A descendant of Aaron is an Aaronite, or Kohen, meaning Priest.[43][44] Any non-Aaronic Levite--i.e., descended from Levi but not from Aaron[45]--assisted the Levitical priests of the family of Aaron in the care of the tabernacle; later of the temple.[46]

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Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

StopComplainingandLive

The really ironic thing is Jesus addresses it exactly opposite from what doubters says. Jesus says there are more important things than having limbs. In fact, He suggested that people amputate their limbs (or gouge out their eyes) if those parts helped them to sin:

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:8-9)

The main thing that athiests have failed to understand is that this life is a mere short prequel to the life that is to come. Nobody is going to avoid all the discomforts or escape life intact. In fact, your destiny is death. If God healed everyone's illnesses, there would be no death. God wants to do more than just heal your physical bodies, which are temporary. God wants to heal your soul, which is eternal. God wants to make you perfect!7 However, God does not want to force anyone to act against his own will, so He give us choices. Agree to give up your "right" to sin and go along with God's plan, and He will reward you with a perfect soul in heaven.

Honestly if there is a single person here who has not read the coran or the bible and have actually understood it should not have a right to comment unless you like going into an argument without knowledge and with a closed mindedplease do research before spewing hate thanks

The really ironic thing is Jesus addresses it exactly opposite from what doubters says. Jesus says there are more important things than having limbs. In fact, He suggested that people amputate their limbs (or gouge out their eyes) if those parts helped them to sin:

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:8-9)

The main thing that athiests have failed to understand is that this life is a mere short prequel to the life that is to come. Nobody is going to avoid all the discomforts or escape life intact. In fact, your destiny is death. If God healed everyone's illnesses, there would be no death. God wants to do more than just heal your physical bodies, which are temporary. God wants to heal your soul, which is eternal. God wants to make you perfect!7 However, God does not want to force anyone to act against his own will, so He give us choices. Agree to give up your "right" to sin and go along with God's plan, and He will reward you with a perfect soul in heaven.

Honestly if there is a single person here who has not read the coran or the bible and have actually understood it should not have a right to comment unless you like going into an argument without knowledge and with a closed mindedplease do research before spewing hate thanks

Welcome.

Feel free to introduce yourself in the intro forum!

And you did not answer the question. You posed a different topic and went about explaining it. I do find it odd though that you will admit to having sinned, yet here you sit typing on your keyboard and have not amputated your hands and arms off yet. Why do you disobey Jesus?

The really ironic thing is Jesus addresses it exactly opposite from what doubters says. Jesus says there are more important things than having limbs. In fact, He suggested that people amputate their limbs (or gouge out their eyes) if those parts helped them to sin:

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:8-9)

How would one know if they have sinned? What are some examples of sin (actually would need a full comprehensive list if I am expected to avoid them)? List the sin and then the actual verse. The verse has to be a direct quote from either God or Jesus and say explicitly "*This* is a sin!", not "Anyone found doing * should be stoned to death" <-- that's not good enough. It also wouldn't hurt to have an explanation of why God/Jesus consider * to be a sin.

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The main thing that athiests have failed to understand is that this life is a mere short prequel to the life that is to come.

Why? Why is there a prequel if there is a "life to come"? Most Christians believe that the "life to come" is soooo much better that this dreary place. Then why have a prequel? That means that everything that we do in this life is completely meaningless and pointless. So why not sit in a door stoop and wait to die since the "life to come" is so beautiful and perfect? Why have a job, make friends, buy a house?

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God wants to heal your soul, which is eternal. God wants to make you perfect!

Why does my soul need to be healed? What exactly is wrong with it? Where is my soul?

God (if he existed) had the chance to make me perfect or you perfect or Jim Bob perfect. But he didn't. Why didn't he make any of us perfect to begin with? Why make us defective only to make us perfect later when he could have just done that in the beginning?

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However, God does not want to force anyone to act against his own will, so He give us choices.

Not very free choices. "Worship me or be tortured for eternity". Free choices don't have negative consequences tied to one of the options.

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Agree to give up your "right" to sin and go along with God's plan, and He will reward you with a perfect soul in heaven.

What is a soul? Why would I need or want one much less a perfect one? What purpose does it serve?

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Honestly if there is a single person here who has not read the coran or the bible and have actually understood it should not have a right to comment unless you like going into an argument without knowledge and with a closed mindedplease do research before spewing hate thanks

I can't speak to the Quran but I am familiar with the bible and I honestly don't think that anyone could truly understand the entire thing. It is so full of contradictions, ridiculous claims and just general nonsense.

It's not a choice if what is stated as an alternative is torture for all eternity for not choosing Biblegod. I think that's what you Christians do not seem to understand: it's an ultimatum not a choice.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Honestly if there is a single person here who has not read the coran or the bible and have actually understood it should not have a right to comment unless you like going into an argument without knowledge and with a closed mindedplease do research before spewing hate thanks

Welcome to the forum "SCaL". What you are likely to find here is that many of us on this forum HAVE read the Bible, and in fact many (certainly not all) are more familiar with the Bible than many Christians (For instance I was a Christian for 32 years, and a bible study teacher for a part of that)... We just choose not to cherry pick the verses that make God look awesome and look at the entire document.

Borrowed from the quote of the day section from Star Stuff: "The Age of Reason was responsible for making more people into infidels than any other book except the Bible." (Gordon Stein)

« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 01:41:42 PM by Garja »

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"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

Simply pointing out the flaws in your argument and disagreeing with you is not 'spewing hate'. You may wish to tone down the hyperbole and stop playing the victim card if you want to be taken seriously around here.

The main thing that athiests have failed to understand is that this life is a mere short prequel to the life that is to come. Nobody is going to avoid all the discomforts or escape life intact. In fact, your destiny is death. If God healed everyone's illnesses, there would be no death. God wants to do more than just heal your physical bodies, which are temporary. God wants to heal your soul, which is eternal. God wants to make you perfect!7 However, God does not want to force anyone to act against his own will, so He give us choices. Agree to give up your "right" to sin and go along with God's plan, and He will reward you with a perfect soul in heaven.

why not skip the prequel and go right to the "real stuff?" That seems really stupid to me. (according to you) HE designed us the way he did. HE created a world full of pain, suffering, and evil (as well as capricious neutrality of nature which cna seem evil at times). he also created a perfect heaven. WHY THE PREQUEL if he WANTS us all to live perfect lives in heaven??? This simply does not compute.

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Honestly if there is a single person here who has not read the coran or the bible and have actually understood it should not have a right to comment unless you like going into an argument without knowledge and with a closed mindedplease do research before spewing hate thanks

I believe no hate was spewed. Kindly direct me to it if I'm mistaken.

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...religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash...anyone who doesn't show...deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

~Astreja

To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place.

Matthew 19:12: For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.’”

I think it is clear that God simply does not like amputees (or people with defects) and thus wont heal them. I think it is a reminder of him being an imperfect creator.

So I'm honestly not that well versed, and this is possibly my first time of seeing this particular scripture. But recently every time I read something out of the Bible I've found a bunch of things that deeply intrigue me.

Like right here. The bible God is talking about the crippled, hunchbacked, blind, lame and those with damaged testicles [of course] and he's saying that they shouldn't be made priests and they shouldn't offer sacrifices because they are UNCLEAN and would DEFILE the temple. Yes, I know right.

But what i notice next is that he then closes the whole chapter by saying. 'I am the LORD, who makes them holy.'

Before anyone gets any ideas let me just say there is 'no way' this is a contradiction. Even the deluded imbeciles who write religious books would wait at least two verses before consciously upturning everything they had just said. And no, I'm definitely NOT saying that this proves anything [much less divine inspiration] but to me, it seems there may be an entirely different point to this scripture than what we see on the surface.

-Maybe by saying this, God's telling them to ignore everything he just said-Maybe this is a sort of reference to the new testaments more liberal translation-Or maybe this entire chapter is not about excluding people with deformities, but rather about including them in a promise i.e God doesn't make these people unclean, they just are. And it's God who then 'makes them clean' [This you all should find particularly interesting because if I'm right, then God is saying here that he WILL heal Amputees. In fact, not 'will', but DOES since the verse used the word 'makes' (present) and not 'will make'].

And it's God who then 'makes them clean' [This you all should find particularly interesting because if I'm right, then God is saying here that he WILL heal Amputees. In fact, not 'will', but DOES since the verse used the word 'makes' (present) and not 'will make'].

But what i notice next is that he then closes the whole chapter by saying. 'I am the LORD, who makes them holy.'

Before anyone gets any ideas let me just say there is 'no way' this is a contradiction. Even the deluded imbeciles who write religious books would wait at least two verses before consciously upturning everything they had just said. And no, I'm definitely NOT saying that this proves anything [much less divine inspiration] but to me, it seems there may be an entirely different point to this scripture than what we see on the surface.

-Maybe by saying this, God's telling them to ignore everything he just said-Maybe this is a sort of reference to the new testaments more liberal translation-Or maybe this entire chapter is not about excluding people with deformities, but rather about including them in a promise i.e God doesn't make these people unclean, they just are. And it's God who then 'makes them clean' [This you all should find particularly interesting because if I'm right, then God is saying here that he WILL heal Amputees. In fact, not 'will', but DOES since the verse used the word 'makes' (present) and not 'will make'].

I think I understand what you are saying. In fact, that is the position I held before becoming an atheist. To me, it was the only way that made sense, so I have some respect for it.

The process by which I became an atheist is rather too long to recount here, but I came to the conclusion that god doesn't exist. When I did so, I no longer needed (nor could I use) that sort of justification or explanation for life and all that it entails.

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.’”

I think it is clear that God simply does not like amputees (or people with defects) and thus wont heal them. I think it is a reminder of him being an imperfect creator.

So I'm honestly not that well versed, and this is possibly my first time of seeing this particular scripture. But recently every time I read something out of the Bible I've found a bunch of things that deeply intrigue me.

Like right here. The bible God is talking about the crippled, hunchbacked, blind, lame and those with damaged testicles [of course] and he's saying that they shouldn't be made priests and they shouldn't offer sacrifices because they are UNCLEAN and would DEFILE the temple. Yes, I know right.

But what i notice next is that he then closes the whole chapter by saying. 'I am the LORD, who makes them holy.'

Before anyone gets any ideas let me just say there is 'no way' this is a contradiction. Even the deluded imbeciles who write religious books would wait at least two verses before consciously upturning everything they had just said. And no, I'm definitely NOT saying that this proves anything [much less divine inspiration] but to me, it seems there may be an entirely different point to this scripture than what we see on the surface.

-Maybe by saying this, God's telling them to ignore everything he just said-Maybe this is a sort of reference to the new testaments more liberal translation-Or maybe this entire chapter is not about excluding people with deformities, but rather about including them in a promise i.e God doesn't make these people unclean, they just are. And it's God who then 'makes them clean' [This you all should find particularly interesting because if I'm right, then God is saying here that he WILL heal Amputees. In fact, not 'will', but DOES since the verse used the word 'makes' (present) and not 'will make'].

I cant be inside the mind of the bible writers or the "god" that inspired them. All I can do is read the words they wrote along with the translators that gave us whatever edition we're reading and take those words for what they say. In this passage he excludes people with certain conditions and is extremely clear about those conditions down to the damaged testes. Why then should I all of a sudden think he is being vague and means something totally different from what he just went into great detail about?