Whitechapel - Dave Sim&#039;s last Glamour PussTue, 31 Mar 2015 17:14:48 -0500http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/
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Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339436#Comment_339436
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339436#Comment_339436Fri, 31 Aug 2012 20:06:46 -0500mjmartinejohnSay what you will about the man, but for someone that has given his life to the medium if saddens me to see him struggling for an audience. Is there life after Cerebus?

And what does this say about the comic book community? ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339440#Comment_339440
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339440#Comment_339440Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:39:34 -0500James CunninghamDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339441#Comment_339441
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339441#Comment_339441Fri, 31 Aug 2012 22:41:58 -0500oddbillI couldn't give two shits about his other contributions. There is lots of great art in the world.

No one deserves an audience. It's a thing you build through trust. Dave Sim spit in his audience's face. So he lost it. End of story.

What does that say about the comic book community? It says they know how much attention he deserves. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339450#Comment_339450
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339450#Comment_339450Sat, 01 Sep 2012 03:03:22 -0500WoodSo when I saw what his new comic looked like, just by looking at the cover, my first thought was "Yup, he still has problems with women", and I just could not bring myself to buy it.

You ever had a friend who got into a weird cult or an extremist political fraction ? You used to be good friends, but now every time you meet all he does is rave about how we are now living in a feminist totalitarian dicatorship, and it's just so painful even though you can still catch glimpses of the guy he used to be, so you hang out with him less and less often until you stop seeing him at all. And now he's complaining about how he's all alone and nobody likes him anymore... ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339463#Comment_339463
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339463#Comment_339463Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:21:18 -0500ArgosDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339464#Comment_339464
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339464#Comment_339464Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:23:57 -0500William Joseph DunnDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339482#Comment_339482
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339482#Comment_339482Sat, 01 Sep 2012 18:27:44 -0500mjmartinejohnAnd I agree about Glamourpuss, it isn't for everyone, but I sometimes think that the titles on the fringe, the titles that are made with greater chance for the creators involved are the ones that deserve the attention, because they are trying to push the envelope, and as such should be met with a certain level of interest. Anyone know of any titles that deserve recognition and don't seem to get them??

Or creators? ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339488#Comment_339488
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339488#Comment_339488Sat, 01 Sep 2012 21:19:07 -0500oddbillDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339508#Comment_339508
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339508#Comment_339508Sun, 02 Sep 2012 07:24:52 -0500steevoI guess my real question is -- Does this boil down to a semantics thing? Or are you telling people not to pursue their interests because there is too much good work out there and they can't ever see it all? ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339511#Comment_339511
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339511#Comment_339511Sun, 02 Sep 2012 10:02:26 -0500oddbillI think approaching things with the frame of mind of "does this deserve more attention than it is getting" is bad. It sets you up for resentment when you could just be enjoying it without feeling somehow it is being cheated. It makes you think other more popular things are less deserving. Just look at he way things like Twilight are reviled. I doubt I would enjoy those books, but lots of people do, for reasons no different than the ones I like many comics or science fiction stories. John Ford's Growing Up Weightless, about role-playing gamers in a moon colony, is never going to have the audience of Twilight, through I think it is a better book. Does it deserve that audience? No. It's just one book in millions, about what it is about. I just like it.

The whole framing of his thread just sets me off. The naive question of "why can't Dave Sim" find an audience which turns out to be genuine naïveté as the first poster has apparently barely read Sim and knows nothing about the hatred of women, gays and feminists he so carefully and explicitly argued in his comics. Then turning this into "who deserves more attention?"

It's just a way to add a dash of bitterness to what could otherwise have been simply, "what non-mainstream comics do you like?" And that question should go into a thread that hasn't already been poisoned with Sim's name in he title. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339513#Comment_339513
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339513#Comment_339513Sun, 02 Sep 2012 10:46:42 -0500steevoI've not read any of Sim's work and I really don't have any interest in it, though I've heard good things about the art portion of it and bad things about the personal politics involved regarding his take on women being...you know...black holes or whatever the fuck he gets on about.

But I digress...

Just wanted to jump in and make sure we weren't starting to shout people down for expressing interest in things around here. If that happened I would be ever so sad. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339514#Comment_339514
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339514#Comment_339514Sun, 02 Sep 2012 11:06:18 -0500James CunninghamDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339516#Comment_339516
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339516#Comment_339516Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:26:53 -0500William Joseph Dunn
should be huge:

(At one point, it was almost all text, various bizarre essays & exegesis that'd make a normal reader's eyeballs bleed and even someone TRULY insane like, say, Philip K. Dick go "whoa".)

Dave Sim DID spit in the face of the audience. So did any number of musicians (Iggy Pop, for one) and yet they don't inspire the hatred and vitriol that Sim does. (His very name "poisoned" this thread, according to bill.) Hey, here's a fun question - how many fourteen year old girls do you think Mick Jagger has slept with over the years? And yet you love the Rolling Stones. Huh. Wow.

Dave Sim, love him or hate him (and I am definitely both), has done more for comics than anyone at Marvel or DC. He SAID he'd do 300 issues of Cerebus - and did. He said it'd end - it did. (He never said it'd all be worth reading. It wasn't ALL worth reading.) Without Sim, I doubt you'd see the creator-owned market as it exists now.

As to his views on women (which actually are abhorrent) - I'll paraphrase Jack Kirby - (some dude wrote some long letter, explaining to Jack why so-and-so could not POSSIBLY have taken place and how DARE he try to pass this off. Kirby's response?)

"Oh. So?" ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339531#Comment_339531
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339531#Comment_339531Sun, 02 Sep 2012 15:46:06 -0500William Joseph DunnDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339536#Comment_339536
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339536#Comment_339536Sun, 02 Sep 2012 16:43:58 -0500KeeperofManyNamesI suspect maybe the tendency of Sin Titulo to go on year long hiatuses might be what's holding it back from wider recognition. Thanks for bringing it up, though, I had no idea it started updating again! It's dense stuff, but it's fascinating stuff all the same, and it does deserve a wider readership. ...Er, rather... it could stand to see a wider readership?

Hm. Maybe the reason "deserve" is a word we use in this context is because the alternatives are kind of awkward. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339568#Comment_339568
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339568#Comment_339568Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:11:17 -0500scs
Judenhaas and the historical sections of Glamourpuss. When he brings in analysis, it both pollutes the history and detracts from the story. I've been reading Glamourpuss irregularly, but mostly for the art (which is great) and the history of photorealism in comics. In Glamourpuss? plot and story are concerned are almost non-existant, and as parody of the fashion industry it's pretty weak. If I had to sum up the problems the series has in a word, it would be "unfocused."

That's the same comment I'd make of almost everything he's done since Rick's Story (Judenhass is a notable exception, but it breaks no ground in any area except in the photorealistic presentation). This isn't to say that Cerebus was ever fully focused. It was all over the map depending on Sims obsession du jour. But at least until the last 60-70 issues, things at moved along. The first early part of Going Home had some moments, but from then on it was weak satire and Sim soapbox to the end. That weak focus and mediocre satire carry forward into Glamourpuss.

Someone (Sim?) said that Cerebus' story was over at issue 200. I somewhat agree. Guys (201-219) and Rick's Story (220-231) were usually entertaining and sometimes compelling, even when Sim was being self-indulgent. But they were mostly stories where Cerebus happened to be a participant, they weren't Cerebus stories except that they relied on the first 200 issues to provide setting and situation. Starting with Going Home, Cerebus was mostly a systematic shedding of what had gone before, a series of meandering and ill-conceived artistic analyses, and a lot of poorly thought-out axe grinding. Sad, sad, sad.

Having said that, let's get back to the topic. Sim is having trouble getting people to pay attention for two reasons.

First, his current work (Glamourpuss) is rarely interesting in and of itself. Nothing grabs you unless you're interested in history of comics, and even that is kind of obliquely approached. This was been a problem with Cerebus since 1998 started Going Home. From there forward, there are only two moments that really stick in my head - Cerebus and Jaka walking through the array of Cirinists, and when Cerebus realizes that his father is dead. That's not much for five years of work. Second, since 1998 he's consistently produced stories that do not reward deeper reading - in fact, deeper reading and independent research into the topics he covers (Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, religion, etc) reveals how flawed his analyses are.

Taken together, it's a fourteen-year record of work that is uninteresting on the surface and a failure at deeper levels. IMHO it's no surprise that interest in his newer work keeps dropping.

There's no question that Sim is one of the giants of the field, both as artist and as a mover and shaker. But unless he comes out of the intellectual black hole he's built, his career is largely over. I'll keep buying occasionally in hopes that he levels up, but I'm not holding my breath. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339571#Comment_339571
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339571#Comment_339571Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:00:27 -0500oddbillDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339577#Comment_339577
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339577#Comment_339577Mon, 03 Sep 2012 18:32:13 -0500mister hexI enjoyed Glamorpuss but I'm not surprised the market didn't support it. I'm glad he did something after Cerebus that wasn't Cerebus.

@oddbill - I knew that but I needed it to be pee and breakfast to make my soggy cereal analogy work. You're right, of course, facts matter. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339578#Comment_339578
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339578#Comment_339578Mon, 03 Sep 2012 19:24:22 -0500andyconI think I might be one of a handful.

I guess what really surprised me from the glamourpuss letter was the fact that up until the last few years Sim had been able to live off of the sales of High Society-Church And State II. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339581#Comment_339581
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339581#Comment_339581Mon, 03 Sep 2012 20:33:50 -0500mjmartinejohnI picked up a couple of issues of Glamourpuss, the last one having a letter in it that I found quite shocking. Despite what you may think of Dave Sim, he has given his life to a body of work, has dedicated himself to a medium and it seems like few give a shit. Sure Glamourpuss isn't going to be breaking any records of any sort, but it is a testament of love for the medium, and the work of a madman. So, I decided to get some opinions as to why someone whom I haven't read a whole hell of a lot about, but who seems to care about the medium, and has some talent in some fashion has been tossed to the curb. Question answered.

@oddbill My questions may not seem overly related, or that well thought out, and they aren't, but I'm asking them all the same, because I'm curious about them. I didn't realize that each and every question on a message board had to be interrelated, my goal was to promote discussion on a topic that was bothering me. And sure my attention shifted halfway through, but I do believe that (in my mind) it is related. Indie creators have a hard time letting people know their work is around (as you've mentioned), and as Dave Sim is a major contemporary figure in comics I thought we might discuss the creators that aren't damned for their politics, and are plugging away at work in relative obscurity for the LOVE of the medium.

Sure I am shifting attention away from the topic I chose, but if Dave Sim is damned to go down for his politics (as the majority seems to have pointed their thumbs down) than perhaps it is better to discuss those that are worth talking about. @william Thanks for the suggestions, I've read a little of Sin Titulo, but I have never read any of Tim Hamilton's works. I have a hard time reading comics on a screen.

Or we could talk more about Dave Sim, and why I should be convinced to revisit his major body of work? ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339584#Comment_339584
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339584#Comment_339584Mon, 03 Sep 2012 20:43:56 -0500oddbill
he has given his life to a body of work, has dedicated himself to a medium

And I'm arguing that this is utterly valueless and worth nothing, nor should it in and of itself be worth anything. If someone devotes themselves to an activity to the exclusion of most of the rest of life, that is not something worthy of praise for itself. That "Despite what you may think" that you preface it with is, in fact, the only part that matters. Not that someone spent their life making comics, but what comics did they make.

Look, Charles Crumb spent most of his life scribbling in notebooks like this:

then he died. Nobody cares. Nor should they.

Devoting your life to something does not confer worth onto that thing, or the monomaniacal devotion to it. If it drives you to reclusion (or is a symptom of mental disorder), that is not ennobling. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339586#Comment_339586
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339586#Comment_339586Mon, 03 Sep 2012 20:57:34 -0500mjmartinejohnI have no idea who Charles Crumb is, I like Robert Crumb (as my mania is fixated on comics,) so the fact that he wrote a bunch of shit in books means absolutely nothing to me at all, but for someone it is probably the bees knees, they confer the worth onto his work with their will as I have done with Dave Sim's. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339588#Comment_339588
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339588#Comment_339588Mon, 03 Sep 2012 21:01:05 -0500oddbill
Crumb. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339589#Comment_339589
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339589#Comment_339589Mon, 03 Sep 2012 21:02:04 -0500mjmartinejohnDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339590#Comment_339590
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339590#Comment_339590Mon, 03 Sep 2012 21:04:48 -0500mjmartinejohnDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339591#Comment_339591
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339591#Comment_339591Mon, 03 Sep 2012 21:05:12 -0500oddbill(edit: posted before your second post appeared.) ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339603#Comment_339603
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339603#Comment_339603Tue, 04 Sep 2012 02:38:21 -0500kperkinsDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339839#Comment_339839
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339839#Comment_339839Sat, 08 Sep 2012 18:32:42 -0500mjmartinejohn
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/09/07/dave-sim-career-end-point-doomsday-scenario-glamourpuss-cancelation/ ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339847#Comment_339847
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339847#Comment_339847Sat, 08 Sep 2012 22:47:35 -0500James CunninghamDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339853#Comment_339853
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339853#Comment_339853Sun, 09 Sep 2012 02:07:53 -0500Wood
started getting published in France, which meant Sim handed over control over his work to a publisher. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339981#Comment_339981
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339981#Comment_339981Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:19:13 -0500Wood
Kim Thompson And Eric Reynolds Basically Make An Open Offer To Publish Dave Sim ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339982#Comment_339982
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339982#Comment_339982Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:32:10 -0500William Joseph DunnDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339989#Comment_339989
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=339989#Comment_339989Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:34:49 -0500James CunninghamDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340031#Comment_340031
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340031#Comment_340031Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:55:43 -0500ArgosDave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340122#Comment_340122
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340122#Comment_340122Thu, 13 Sep 2012 16:32:37 -0500mister hex@ James - I agree, there's a market for what he's done. The Comics Market is apparently not it. And as an infrequent purchaser of Glamourpuss, I never really got what he was talking about with the strips that I never saw and were before my time. Had he I don't know, done a strip about the sweat-shop bullpen days of early comics (or even just early Marvel) I would've read the SHIT outta that. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340398#Comment_340398
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340398#Comment_340398Mon, 17 Sep 2012 07:27:56 -0500mister hexhttp://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/62513-dave-sim-mark-millar.html ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340495#Comment_340495
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340495#Comment_340495Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:01:27 -0500mjmartinejohn
bitch and moan. Slapping back offers to help is not cool. ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340504#Comment_340504
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=340504#Comment_340504Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:22:54 -0500andyconalso when an offer is kinda/sorta/totally insulting to 1/3 of your life's work I'd get a bit defensive as well.

I just love how in the middle he goes off on this crazy hemmingway/Fitzgerald ramble that only Dave Sim can. The guy really needs an agent/manager to listen to his ramblings and break them down into normal people responses. Basically he needs to hire his ex-wife to come back and run the business end of things again. (From what it looks like from the kickstarter e-mails she is going to be doing a bunch of audio stuff for the ebooks so it seems they are back on good terms again) ]]>
Dave Sim's last Glamour Pusshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=341808#Comment_341808
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10813&Focus=341808#Comment_341808Sun, 07 Oct 2012 11:47:20 -0500WoodIDW to publish complete collection of Cerebus covers in 2013 ]]>