finally a documentary that takes the whole scope into account without focusing on conspiracy nonsense.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1013802574 Sharon Costen

Facts are there. It's no longer a theory.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

if you are talking about 9/11 being an inside job you are sorely mistaken. but i beg you guys not to turn this thread into a 9/11 conspiracy hang out.... PLEASE!

Achems_Razor

Ha, Ha, It already is a 9/11 conspiracy hang out by the biggest conspirators of them all, starting from the commission report et al.

My viewpoint has not changed but I will say no more.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

lol *shakes fist* geeeet outta here you damn truther! SHOO, GET!

Achems_Razor

lol Okay, now that is funny! am going goddamit it! crawls away.

fonbindelhofas

10mins of this crap, its all i could take

fonbindelhofas

what hapend to aljezeera? is it runed by western wormongers now?

Sieben Stern

very good docu, but i'm disappointed that al jazeera called the bomb turban mohammed too offensive to reproduce for their docu, which shows, to me at least, that they do still harbor bias, and are not completely free and open reporters.

TomazZzz

I am sorry for those that belive this comedy..
Will CIA ever tell the truth about what Al Qaeda really is?? Who formed it? Why it was formed?
How long do they know that Osama died in 2002???
I really hope that this things are in some arhives that will be opened before I turn to sheetdust JUST so I hear all details that are still missing.. Maybe about John Patrick O'Neill that was found among pulverized concrete with a bullet hole?

wald0

They were glad they could disrupt the economy of country so big? Man, its hard to belieive someone could be so callous as to look at this attack in such a way. The economy was the least of our concerns, thousands of people were murdered for christ's sake!! All in the name of organized religion, again. Don't get me wrong, we were pretty callous to go attack a country that had nothing to do with the attack, to occupy that country against its citizens will, to murder those same citizens in cold blood at times, and to detain and torture people without even giving them due course of our own laws. What have we become? It's getting harder and harder to hold my head up, to look at myself in the mirror and have to ask, "What have you done about it?" Oh, I voted for the man that condemn such action, and said he would stop it. But is that enough? I'm not sure anymore.

lex lexich

al- qaeda??? is there anyone who still believe in that fairytale? wtc7 smashed by al-qaeda? omg

http://www.facebook.com/people/Brandon-Costa/1243110309 Brandon Costa

I'm on the non-conspiracy team, can I get a show of hands before I watch this?

lex lexich

inside job -meaning wtc buildings are crashed from the inside, yes

Robert Laituri

too late....this docu is poo-poo for your mind.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Brandon-Costa/1243110309 Brandon Costa

I bet many at Al Jazeera would love to show stuff like that, but come on, in that region.. that's a 100 % guarantee suicide

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

? yes the fires burned from the inside.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

why is that? gonna need more info.

bud oracle

The level of "newstainment" of Al Jazeerah is refreshing. This is also biased, make no mistake (nothing can escaped being "colored" by it human creator), but it tries very hard to be balanced. Great stuff! Thanks... This makes me again appreciate how lucky I have been to be published by Al Zazeerah under my given name Klaus Kaczor.

I am very glad to have been raised in Canada and "suffered" the peace we were burdened with. Finally in my late teens and early twenties my hero worship of Americans waned in the wake of Vietnam, but because Canada is awash in American broadcasting and media it wasn't until only after I became addicted to the internet that a truly broad perspective was gained.

I am so glad that the Arab spring has arrived and wish them a happy summer and fall. Fervently, some of us hope over here that our spring will arrive, too. I am sure that many ordinary people all over the planet are tired of whatever form of oppression they suffer.

This is where the real battle lies: in the hearts and minds of people. The artillery used is the media and the ammunition is spin. The problem with America, as I stated in my "political theory" "Do humans have a political gene?" is the third example of evidence of genetic factors influencing the outcome of American Presidential elections. In 50 years there was an average decline of 10% for voter turnout (from 60% to 50.) (This is based on an assumption that intelligent people come out to vote) This I suggested was evidence of a decline in general intelligence of the population which is term "Genetic Drift." Remarkably this is almost the entire lifespan of television in America, 1960 to 2004, since when the figures of turnout were kept.

I think if we had a more courageous, responsible, ethical, unbiased press on all sides and valued them more, it might be a better world. As soon as the truth is co-opted all of humanity suffers. My heart goes out to those brave journalists. Thank you

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=671271153 Ronnie Smith

Inside job.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_M6F3RJVEWJ24QKMCHFNVK7ADVE Winston Smith

Inside job

ajl.smugmug com/911

*That doesn't mean there was no 'planes operation,' but that it, or they, were co-opted into, at most, serving as patsies for this attack that would be used as a pretext to even grander crimes against humanity and terrorism carried out against the people of Iraq & Afghanistan and a dramatic curtailing of civil rights at home. Today Americans may be arrested or killed without due process. They may be held in indefinite detention without being charged. This is the definition of a dictatorship and is just a matter of time until these autocratic laws are abused.
How do w know 9-11 could only have been an 'inside job'? Because the evidence is clear and overwhelming; WTC 1, 2 & 7 were destroyed with preplanted explosives.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_M6F3RJVEWJ24QKMCHFNVK7ADVE Winston Smith

"Patrick O'Neill was found among pulverized concrete with a bullet hole?"
-reference>>?

WTC7

After this post, I must say that I am close to admiring you Waldo.

lex lexich

but of course! however it was not the fire that made the buildings collapse, i know, 'cause i've seen it many times... explosive burned from the inside, and it takes alot more than several hours (like in case of wtc7) to plant those explosive

lex lexich

religion had nothing to do with that, it's all about the Bush and Co. waging wars for several reasons; patriot act, attacking and controling afganistan, making money through lockheed martin and others and so on and so forth, dont forget someone is always buying stocks after sharp drops, so 'disrupted economy' has two sides, always

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

to be fair they wouldnt show it because MOST of their buildings are in islamic country and it would be asking for trouble.

none of our media outlets will show it either.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

what do you mean wald0?

im sure al-qaeda and the people who carried these attacks out did so to disrupt economy, and honestly i think the unfortunate reality is that to the government, the amount of money it has cost them is more an issue than the lives. as awful as that is.

for the normal citizen though you are right, the economy was the least of your concerns.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

lol exactly what i said

Studhurst

How much do you get paid to troll comment boards like this? Not much more than minimum wage I would hope...

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

what is it about my posts that would constitute trolling?

MrMiki1

Really interesting documentary. I don't agree that this is overly biased. Seems to just be good journalism to me.

dewflirt

No conspiracy other than the web of lies spun after the event to justify a war that was waiting to happen anyway. I find it strange that so many people are prepared to believe that something as huge as 9/11 was an inside job, yet 7/7, far smaller by comparison does not attract the same level of suspicion. Mind you, the British government couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery and would probably leave the evidence in a taxi anyway.

dewflirt

Oh, and I liked this doc a lot. Nice to get news and views from different sources, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

MrMiki1

It is hard to say that this doc is heavily biased when you have the actual former CIA operatives themselves talking. Also former Pakastani president. Quality stuff.

http://www.facebook.com/ElmoPutz David Foster

"It is hard to say that this doc is heavily biased when you have the actual former CIA operatives themselves talking."

Now, there's an interesting statement.. *The CIA just telling it like it is.* And all this time I thought it was their job to do the exact opposite!

dewflirt

The best lies are the ones that stick closest to the truth and in some cases the truth is just unbelievable. It's not always what they say that is the problem but the things they don't say. Most times you'll not work it out either way :)

Yes, ever since their Palestinian director was pushed out, Al Jazeera has become more and more of a propaganda tool. Couple days ago their Washington corespondent was reporting from in front of GITMO with us soldiers walking all around her. How did she get there? Why was she spouting pentagon talking points? Clearly Al Jazeera has gotten chummy with the military establishment. For shame.

Renevonn

Even now, a full decade after the event and I still do not know who did it, why they did it or even how they did it.
The only thing I'm reasonably sure of is my doubt that the events of September 11th were carried out by a group of men whose primary residence consisted mostly of caves in some foreign mountain range.

After looking at the 9/11 commission report, hearing testimony from all sides (including giving equal time to 'conspiracy' theories), the only conclusion I could reach was that it appeared to be a well orchestrated false-flag attack potentially carried out by elements within our own government. I've no proof of this, nothing I can point to as a definitive smoking gun, but after thinking as critically as possible about the event and the responses put forward by the Bush administration, a false-flag attack is the most likely scenario in my mind. I just don't buy the Government's explanation. Not one fighter jet scrambled to investigate why several planes were off course? Really NORAD? Its hard for me to believe that the people guarding the most secure piece of airspace in the world just happened to drop the ball.

Why did 'they' do it? I've no idea either, but I would wager it has or had something to do with growing the powers of government, perhaps even an attempt to completely remove any and all bits of civilian oversight. I won't go so far as to say it was simply a ploy to kill off a large number of civilians, I doubt that cold-blooded murder was the real objective. If anything, the soul's lost on that day were collateral damage. Let us not forget however, that governments can and DO turn against their own people from time to time, when it suits the powers that be to do so.

It could've just been for money, a grab for power, or even for Geo-political reasons, perhaps involving some rapidly approaching crisis us commoners are simply kept unaware of. Governments can operate on time-scales of decades while nearly all ordinary people are only concerned with what's going on next weekend. When you can plan ahead by years, you can make some startling things happen. They're the ones in power and they've got all the time in the world to pull off whatever they want to.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Get out you damn truthers!!! this is a doc about real life. real world with real intelligence. you would not like this.

other wise great doc one of the most detail and informative i have ever seen. and Aljazeer have access like no one else.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

I am done two episodes, and seriously this is one of the greatest doc on the last decade ever. I follow international events fairly tightly and this clarified so many things for me. It offers a fair perspective on a complex issue. In a world full of spin and manipulation, it's nice to see a retrospective that offers such clarity, and remind us that real honest decent in-depth journalism still exists in this world.

Bojinka

This documentary is as misleading as the presenter's odd glottalization whenever he says 'al-Qaeda' - the fact of the matter is - if anyone had bothered to read the Commission report and or substantiate the narrative presented, you would find out that part of the terrorist cell that carried out the attacks came from Hamburg where it just so happens that head of the clandestine service of the CIA (at that time called the DO) David Edger was stationed. Miraculously, the Commission failed to mention WTC7 collapse and NIST (or SAIC) has never come up with a reasonable theory as to how - that goes for the towers as well; the Commission members and some of the staff belong to the Council on Foreign Relations, Zelikow helped to write PNAC, Kean was involved in the Amerada-Hess deal with Osama Bin Ladin's brother-in-law - for christs sake, the bleedin' Carlyle Group had just convened. There is just evil in various forms and faces. A lot of people were involved in 9/11 directly and nobody has retold the entire story with 100% accuracy. Documentaries like this should be watched only when in possession of the facts of these events and those that led to them - otherwise go and read some stuff from historycommons and work it out yerselves!

Bjurne

A fine piece of propaganda! Good job brainwashing people Al Jazeera.

Hrdcorevet

The hypocrisy here is disgusting. They claim the images of Abu Ghraib are horrible yet when the terrorists take prisoners, their treatment is just as bad if not worse and nothing is said. Where is the worldwide outrage of video taped beheadings of Americans? A couple of Korans are burned and the whole Middle East riots, yet You Tube still shows video of terrorists over there blowing up Amercians, bombing convoys, etc. Something has to change and fast.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

i love how some of you are saying they are biased towards one side and some of you are saying they are biased towards the other side....HIGHlarious.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

The hypocrisy from you is also disgusting. Helicopter murdering unarmed civilians, slaughter at a wedding party, all the torture at US ran prisons, I am not defending terrorist here, I am simply saying both side did horrible things in this war, (such as the nature of war) And for a peaceful future, both sides need to reflect on their actions. To highlight the action of one side over the action of the other in this messy war is hypocrisy.

Hrdcorevet

Well said, I agree

Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Android-powered phone

lottalu

clash of civilization is just a term made as an aim to attain more power/control and to justify any actions perpetrated by western headed by the US. it's long been the strategy of imperial powers to divide a country in which they invaded in order to gain better control. It's been used by the english extensively and the dutch.
the core of that term is repugnant in a sense that it glorifies one culture over the other. it has to sufficiently demonize their specific target and the saddest part is that many people buy into it.

For the normal citizen? where did you spring from...
oh from under the bridge...
There is so much wrong with your posts and your world view that i dont know where to start.

Alqaeda?
911?
Pull the other one its got bells on and a five metre hole where a 747 should be...
Do you honestly think that the money these wars cost the government (and hence YOU dear taxpayer) wasnt a issue...
that it wasn't the ONLY issue?
Yu really think the bastards who run the empire gives two shits about lives?

... they all had shares in the companies that did a booming trade in bombs- The government of USA is little more than a front for the military and data industrial complexes.
The entire thing has been a scam from the start, selling you everything from Jack Bauer merchandise, draconian feudalistic, fascistic policy all the way down to TSA scanners and humvees.
Why? because there is no money to be made from, or, more importantly, power to be had over a peaceful and happy populous.
Keep people scared and you can control EVERYTHING.
tyranny 1.01.

Your attempts to lower the standard of debate to divisive issues such as money vs lives, your wilful misconception of "government".
the "newspeak"that you spout
but the real gem is this one
" ...citizen though you are right, the economy was the least of your concerns."
makes you sound as though you may well not be a normal citizen as no-one uses the word "citizen" apart from people in the pay of a government oragnisation.
Mrks you out at sither deluded or a paid shill/troll.
Now shut up -the adults are talking.

NOT to mention your trolling the singular issue of 911 in a thread that talks of a documentary of much wider scope-
However and whoever put on the 911 show or how is muchly of an irrelevance- the big geopolitical issues are far more massive than the PR stunt that started it all.
ah trolling the trolls -fun fun.

The underground nukes theory was always my favourite, not mini-nukes -just a nice 100-150kiloton one 50ft underground.plus a bit of strategically placed thermate to ensure it all came down nice and neat.
check out the ex russian military guy who has some interesting ideas on the mechanics of the collapse (on youtube under "nuclear demolition"- he answers a few of the difficult questions Dr. Judy Wood posed such as "where did the towers go>?" but doesnt reach the same , rather outlandish conclusions of a Scalar Resonance directed energy weapon- although stranger things have happened and Nikola tesla once started an earthquake with one...
I have only reached three solid conclusions in my own research -
1. that it doesnt much matter so long as the paranoia aspect of the exercise came off ok.
2. it wasnt done by incompetent arab pilots many of whom keepturning up alive!
3. Television watching westerners ill buy anything!

Just stick your fingers in your ears and go La la lala la;
Then go have a conversation with a friend who watches the mainstream news- you will be blissfully ignorant in no time at all!
quick as you can say "Charlie Veitch!"
-Can i recommend "Zero: an investigation" as a nice vanilla piece on the subject that doesn't get into the more outlandish theories but proves beyond doubt it certainly didnt happen like NIST said it did.
If you're on the "nonconspiracy" team as you put it, good luck waking up from that.
Conspiracies are all around you my friend- right down to how they lay out the supermarket to make you buy more.

Check out the Adam Curtis films Vlatko has on here too- especially the one about Edward Bernayes- father of "Public Relations" (well not the father -he adopted propaganda and changed its name so noone would notice!-- Pretty clever PR huh?)

Oh.. and go find a pre 911 dictionary and look up the term "ground zero" to see what it actually means...

The bullet fired by alqaeda entered after the plane, bounced around precisely 4.5 million(NIST estimate) times off all the supporting beams, exited the south tower and was, by this time, so hot that upon entering the north tower it swelled to 300,000(Nist estimate) times it normal size, cooking all of the pancakes on all of the floors and causing both towers to collapse-
We know this because the bullet was found by a nice man from the CIA right next to one of the hijackers passports, behind the grassy knoll with a scrawled note in Arabic that said (NIST translation)
"It were me what done it! an"d signed by one "Lee Harvey Osama Oswald BinLaden".

Its absolute rubbish... tired, fake, sensationalist rubbish- anyone who knows their geopolitics will see the MO of this nonsense.
Its about fighting a ghost or boogeyman and accepts his existence without question- CIA guys spouting vague james bond nonsense.
Rageh flipping Omar, mans an idi*t, always has been- he is treatin the CIAlike they are trustworthy sources- laughable..

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

im not trolling. stop trying to use the term trolling against people you disagree with. it is ridiculous. i am responding to people who are bringing it up.

please stop with your nonsense.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

first of all it is very ironic to end a completely immature post with "now shut up - the adults are talking" clearly you are not an adult.

if you want to speak to me please do so with some maturity.

none of what you are saying makes any sense.

what is the debate which i am lowering to money vs lives? and what is my misconception of "government" and what makes you think it was willful?

what is this "newspeak"? give me some examples.

and i used that terminology because i am canadian and NOT an american citizen.

you are clearly clouded by emotion. let me know when you are done being a child.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

you speak with jumbled speech patterns reminiscent of someone with schizophrenia. collect your thoughts before you post to me again. it is starting to come off a little sad.

you are the one keeping people scared pretending the government is some all powerful entity that can do anything lol. again, grow up.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

stop calling everyone you dont agree with a troll. this is your last warning.

Achems_Razor

I second the motion!

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

lol its amazing, i have never seen people so angry and insulting as these past few people the past couple days.

even christians are more rational than some of these people, or at least more mature.

Achems_Razor

Yeah I know, angry, insulting and trolling. They are testing everybody's patience.

I dont agree with YOU, I have called no-one else a troll apart from myself, It was an opinion i seconded in fact...

tomregit

Your rants with their infantile name calling are more like trolling than anything else here. You are in a manic frenzy of activity that speaks volumes about your mental competence and stability. Please feel free to get some of your anger out with a reply; I won't answer and you will have the satisfaction of the last word.

I am a canadian not an american citizen, lol yeah right, they say jump canada says how high!
You ever get that weed dealer back off them or is he still in the gulag serving 20 to infinity for selling seeds?
You used the term alqaeda like it isnt an invented boogeyman - that was what your newspeak- It still doesnt really exist in any meaningful sense even though they tried to bomb it into existence
Its just a branch of the CIA manufacturd to be a nice new shiny enemy now the communists have gone (or have they?).
A label for the next shoebomber or pantsbomber mental health case (read terrorist)to ascribe to after they nurture him and encourage him to do something daft and use as a patsy to sell you airport scanners and more paranoia.
and you call me a child.
lol. f*&king idiot.

I made a counter to some of the accusations levelled by epicurus but its disappeared...
wonder why???
you used to be able to have a good rant on this site but its all got a bit precious- andthe comments dont reply properly- they just stack up on top one another, you used to be able to egt a good debate going here.
so long topdocumentarys, was nice to know you.

and you were always a stupid c+*t achems.
i would always swerve the threads you were trolling when i used to post here,
what people fail to realise is that your opinions dont matter -
not one bit, and you are not even funny-
you dont even try-
you type your thing then your happy that the world has heard your little bit ofwisdom
-you feel smug for a while but it fades so you have to come back and gain a little more respect for your politically inert and well considered opinions devoid of emotional content.
then when you have successfully belittled or shunned an opinion that you might not agree with or ganged up on someone who ahd the balls to have a real rant about something(or god forbid written something without anal care and consideration or proper consideration for commas)
you review the thread with an air of a job well done-
then you congartulate each other for being nice little posters and your piece about the genocide was well thought out and considered-
so you pat each other backs and refine your little circle until all the good little folks agree and there is no bad language and the naughty passionate people who like to write and use comments like this as a sounding board have to go somewhere else becasue its nice and safe here.
where priose that goes on more than a page is considered a rant because you having such a lovely conversational circle jerk with all your buddies you agree with and writing isnt writing anymore because you stole it and turned it into conversation and point by point arguments.
f?**k you all enjoy your apocalypse you stupid f**ks, especially you achems -king of the trolls of banality

lakhotason

Achems, now you know - you were always a stupid c*nt. Sorry you had to learn that this way. It took a real man to tell you this.

I'm sorry. I misunderstood. You are a festering bucket of c**t slurry. I have been pointedly corrected.

I have never in my life spoken to you epicurus, i have typed.
very very different indeed - i write because it would be impossible to say the words that flow from my fingers
they are very different to how i speak- if you cant separate the two then it is youi who have the issues- the vey things that go unsaid can be laid down on paper or screen in anonymity and the written word is not the spoken one- if you can hear a "voice" in my prose then my job is done- i cant hear one in yours....

Achems_Razor

@Tarquin Mahoney:

Flattery will get you nowhere, little troll, i did not know that you cared, you must hate everything even your self.

Now make sure you continue taking your meds wouldn't want you to completely go bonkers, now would I?

you fail to see the difference between the written word and the real world
you know? the one out there where the bombs hit your house?
hate has its place.
sanity my friend is a highly personally overrated and unbelievably banal anyway- just like you.
im not after likes or recognition or even responses and you think my replies" are somhow purposeful or meaningful or even considered -or even if they are my true opinion or not
these comment sections have only one purpose these days with people who use them to "have a voice" in an ungrateful and uncaring world.
im cycnical but not hateful -you are brimming over with it though you have an insult for me that is nice and safe -im mad therefore you can dismiss me and try to belittle me and right lol at the end like it means something when you didnt actually laugh at all
- you only pretended to for the sake of typing it and pretending

catharsis-
here on a page i can be as sane as a judge(god forbid) as saintly as angel or i acn rant and spew and froth with indignity at how detatched other human beings can be- all you an do is snipe and level pathetic uncreative insults about someones mental health.
you festering bucket of c^^t slurry.

you actually think the whole comment was levelled at you achems?
how sweet- the initial comment was for you but it was just the latest brainfart that happened be floating through my head.
and anexpression of the way that bullying, consensus and banal politicking rule the world of internet comment sections, but you wouldnt want to actually debate that would you or even admit to agreeing with parts of my observations because your too comfy being you, and you have areputation to build upo on here so one day you can have a precious moderator badge.
you self censoring f&&k.
you are not important
neither am i
your opinions do not matter
neither do mine

itsnot about the last word its about the fact that we can all write them here, and just fora second someone actually listens -infantile namecall is tremendous fun you should try it sometime instead of being a smug twunt- a presonal favourite of mine its a cross between a tw...im sure you get it,. you tw*nt

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

you called achems a troll now, as well as Yeung Xiao and myself.

lakhotason

And now it appears that Achem wasn't worthy of a whole comment.

lakhotason

Poor Achems. Doesn't even rate a whole comment.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

if you cant tell that speak was used synonymously with type i dont think anyone can help you.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

good riddance....

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

" lol yeah right, they say jump canada says how high!"

thats not true....who went to Iraq with USA like a little puppy following its master? im pretty sure that was YOUR country.

"You ever get that weed dealer back off them or is he still in the gulag serving 20 to infinity for selling seeds?"

no, he is serving 5 years which he has served 2 of because he plead guilty saving his fellow activists that were working with him. i dont know what that has to do with anything we are talking about though. just shows your disjointed train of thought once again.

"You used the term alqaeda like it isnt an invented boogeyman - that was what your newspeak- It still doesnt really exist in any meaningful sense even though they tried to bomb it into existence:

conspiracy theory nonsense. how little you know. *facepalm*

"Its just a branch of the CIA manufacturd to be a nice new shiny enemy now the communists have gone (or have they?)."

LOL you are crazier than i suspected.

yes i call you a child because you are a scared little human being who doesnt have the IQ to understand the world they live in so they invent this fantasy....you need help. see a psychiatrist.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

derp.

Achems_Razor

Epic, I realize it is very hard not to, but you are just feeding the troll.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Damn truthers. I don't even think they know what they believe anymore. What they believe has fallen apart long ago. Now they only know the world is big and scary and everyone is who disagrees is a CIA operative trying to get them. After all if you believe the CIA can pull off 9/11 which according to their theory, involved hiding at least 3 plane full of people, why can't they have someone monitoring every message board.

but seriously, Epicurus is right, these people are far more irrational then even Christians. I know every time I speak against one of these people, I have been accused to be either a troll or an operative, no matter how reasonable and polite i am.

What is sad is that this doc present a view of the events of 9/11 in a much more complex and nuanced way. If you think the official account is too simple, watch the doc, the complexity and inter-connectedness of international politics and ideology will blow your mind. The real world is really complicated, and once you understand it, the truther's plot no matter how complicated, just seems petty and silly.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

@Tarquin Mahoney,

I suppose we're all trolls... according to you. Now stop with your inflammatory comments (fair warning). If you have anything to say, say it, in an intelligent , polite way. If someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they're trolls. Tackle the arguments not the persons. And read the Comment Policy.

TomazZzz

hehe :D
You made me laugh, tnx:)
well maybe everyone else thinks that you are trollin'... I think just that you're in typing mood and you have this pitchblack humor that is so so dark that its already rare, close to extinction.. And because of this fact - not many understand it correctly.
Thanks for being openminded. Our mamma-earth needs this, for few thousand years at least it seems to me.

TomazZzz

I am sorry, I express myself very strange. I ment - they got rid of John O'Neill (at the same time with all that budget deficit papers) with that overstaged twin towers. I wonder if John was maybe dead already before planes hit the towers.
Its quite possible that he even wasn't in the building and he is underwater swimming with cement shoes in some deep lake?
:(

Its a shame that people are asleep and they don't even think that it is strange - the biggest al qaeda specialist till 9/11 died as a result of a plane crash in twin towers for which consequently al qaeda would be blamed. And he started that new job as security in WTC on 10th of september 2001?? No, I guess another coincidence??

http://www.facebook.com/cchristiankg Christian Klinckwort Guerrero

I can not believe you are trying to convince me that it was not J. W. Bush who did it, he and the handy Silverstein who made 7 k million dolars

http://www.facebook.com/cchristiankg Christian Klinckwort Guerrero

you can feel very ashamed of what you are doing

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

How many truthers are there in the world. God damn stop it already. Watch the doc there is real information here. The world does not revolve around the US government. They are not all powerful or even that competent. There is real things going on in this world. Watch and try to understand the complex interplay between politics religion and ideology on the international stage. This is not easy to understand, but once you do, it makes so much more sense then the truthers perspective.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6XQ4PDXZ3HKT6ZMNHZB7PCHTPA Michael

it was israel that orchestrated 9/11.. Israel has been playing russia and america for a long time.. That is how israel got it''s hands on so many nukes.. I have had about enough of them. Israel is a front for international banking cartels. I want the real fight to happen.. in thiiis corner.. israaaaeell.. boo.. in this corrrneeerrrr.. americaaaaaa.. yeaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!! kick his ass, sea bass!

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

please tell me you are just kidding... I am begging you... ha. ha. good joke. you can't possibly be serious.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DS7TB7H57HI2724UWYNX36OL3A Kill

Inside job all the way, from start to end.

If you have the world's largest military you better keep finding enemies to fight or you're out of a job.

TheWindsoftara

I have to agree with fellow poster Yeung Xiao, l watched the Documentary and all it showed me is how less important America is becoming day by day, and Yeung is quite correct the word does not revolve around America as much as she would like the world to think it does. I am a 5th generation Australian, l have been to America a few times, beautiful country, in the suburbs the good people are just gorgeous and the same as anyone else in the world, however they have been taught over generations, they have this God given birthright that they are “Exceptional “. I am so sorry but that is simply not the case, we are all special, everyone in the world, and America is just another country trying to make it’s way. As America found out, Australia will not tolerate being told what to do, America may wish to have the desire to go to War with China, and Kevin Rudd may have said yes to your President, but he was removed as Prime Minister for that vile and putrid answer. Australia has always had very good relations with China and does not intend to change them just because America is unhappy. If America wishes to go to War with China, then off you go, see ya later, have fun, we will watch. Silly fools, you know what America? You slapped China when it was a child and he ran away, you slapped China when he was a teenager, and he just looked at you, l wouldn’t slap China, he is all grown up and is matured. As an Aussie and the last of the baby boomers, l know an old saying, be careful if you wish to step on the tail of a sleeping Tiger, because l bloody well wouldn’t, but then again l am not you!

TheWindsoftara

Epicurus? Shut your mouth! Blah blah blah like a bloody galah that needs someone to hold ya beak fairdinkum! You’re a headache enabler and I’m only reading you, imagine if l had to actually listen to you good Lord!
Firstly bin Laden didn’t have kidney disease, that was all smoke and mirrors, secondly it’s not nice to be so dismissive of other peoples opinions, you have spent more time dismissing other people and telling us all how you come to your conclusions, than really giving anyone really any constructive opinions. Yes yes you’re a thinker, how fabulous so am l, so start thinking instead of flapping. I don’t come here to read about attention seekers, l come here to read about opinions, regardless of whether they differ from mine or what, l don’t find myself that superior of others, that l place myself up on that mountain and judge. Do you have the entire facts in front of you smarta**, of course not. So instead of denouncing all and sundry, concentrate on your own conclusions, no one is interested in how you think how exceptional “you are thank you. The rest of the developed world including Canada, Australia and Britain, l am sure and the rest of the bloody Commonwealth do quite fine, 53 Nations and all and we don’t need your opinion about what we do. The subject is bin Laden l believe? Speaking of…

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

what are wrong with my conclusions? im sorry you need to calm down. but i dont know what you are complaining about.

i dont remember mentioning anything about Bin Laden's kidney problems...and who cares if it is nice or not to be dismissive of peoples opinions? im not trying to be nice. im trying to ensure that there is some semblance of sanity amongst the posts of insanity.

how about pointing out where im wrong?

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

@TheWindsoftara,

What are you complaining about? What you doing is an old classical "ad hominem". Writing almost 250 words in a comment that deal only with one of the commenters, and nothing about the topic.

And... please do not tell to people to shut their mouth!

P.S. @Yeung Xiao agrees with @Epicurus.

TheWindsoftara

It is neither here or there how many people try to denounce those who have questions. There will be always questions; it is difficult to believe a small band of individuals not only had the power, but the organisational skills to arrange such disarray, chaos and tragedy. To be able to create such a time line when America’s Air force were doing Military exercises elsewhere, is just too incredulous to accept. America is just not that sleepy, sorry. To expect the rest of the developed world to accept the fairytale story, the spin doctors put out is an insult to every intelligent and educated person on this planet. Yes bin Laden had a hand in it; he became an even bigger fear factor out of it. I am not subscribing to anything, except to what the evidence is, and one certainly cannot go against the Law of Physics, for that is impossible. Anyone who expects anyone to toss that out the window is not thinking straight. I’d like to know how a building falls down 5.20pm in the afternoon with no fire. It was a Tues night, Wed morning in Australia as we watched on in horror, that is the 2nd question l have always had, along with the first. Why 9/11 wasn't on bin Laden’s wanted poster? It’s a fair question.
Epicurus; you mentioned the kidney matter in a previous post, l read all the posts here in this catagory, how ever never mind. Also, perhaps try not to be so offensive to other Commonwealth countries, l don't believe Canada follows a Master anywhere like a pup, Australia has stood by America's side for the last 100 years, America is a decent country, extremely good people. l would never say anything derogative towards her, l have family there and in Canada, hence why l contentrated solely on you. Sorry if l caused offence, won't happen again. Also 1st reply had nothing to do with 2nd reply.

Another21stCenturySlave

well that is the idea of debunking, aint it?

Another21stCenturySlave

funny ain't it - that are upset for being called a troll - yet u just insulted every1 with christian beliefs in the most hypocritical manner...i suppose tht is the beauty of bein a moderator..can say wot i want..do wot i want..but u down there (site guests) had better do as i say....thumbs up for the leopard revealing his spots!

WTC7

@ Yeung Xiao,

Nothing we believe in has fallen apart, that notion is alive only in your head, and those alike, as you made your choice in what to believe in. So did we, and the 911 being an inside job may exist in our heads only. Having said that, I realize that each side of this debate considers the other one irrational. Similar to you, I find those who fall for the official fairy tale 911 story ignorant of the state of global affairs and the economic and political intricacies involved, both historically and currently.

Fair enough, nobody wins this debate. I guess only our children will be in a position to tell what really happened. As we are now learning about the lies fed to our parents about certain serious events like the Tonkin gulf incident, as an undeniable example.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

what are you talking about?

i can insult a christian and you can insult an atheist. it all depends on how you do it if it will be allowed on the site.

if i said "all christians should die and they are all stupid and delusional" that probably would not be allowed up, however if i said "fundamentalist christians dont understand science and because of that they are ignorant about many scientific topics" that would be fine.

stop being such a grouchy pants. maybe then you will calm down enough to start making sense.

pavel smutný

this doc is as one-sided and unballanced as can be. It tries to look objective by using a lot of different talking heads, but all of them serve the same purpose of establishing the version of history which serves the US government only. Nobody mentioned that the war on Iraq was based on lies, nothing about the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed as collateral damage...

TheWindsoftara

Yes l agree with you, to have an objective opinion doesn't necessarily mean one is automatically subscribing to the odd and strange on both sides of this tragic debate. If people are aware of the Whole Landscape of politics, culture and history around the world. they would come to realise that it was Not only America that was involved, there was at least 2 other Countries. When time passed, those from other Nations who has perished in 9/11 had been sent home to be laid to rest, those who were found of course. We suddenly found ourselves in a Western Asian Country known as Iraq, till this day l have never known exactly why? l do know, the thing l am having trouble with, is the connection to 9/11. The consequences around the world was staggering, in so far as 2 Leaders of 2 Countries, when their Elections came were royally ousted for what they did. In my view, Religion has nothing to do with it, who ever threw that in was for the Common People's benefit. The real reason is, a very simple case of other people wanting other Countries to get Out of their Country!

Greg_Mc

Have only watched part 1 and the information and topic are a nice change. Most of the docs - to me anyway - seem to be the same things said over and over again, the only difference is they will sometimes have different people A.K.A. "experts" telling us nothing new. This tends to lead to the comment section having the same people posting their same comments.

Have not had a chance to read the comments below - just a quick glance - which in spite of what I just said can at times be quite interesting and informative.

I do have a comment to make from what I have seen so far (it is something I have mentioned one way or another previously, but it makes me irate everytime so I must share it lol)

When George Bush is at the podium or in front of a camera anywhere making his "I am a tough guy" threats and snide comments while others actually are the ones carrying out his threats, he has this (sorry to use the same word again but it fits) snide, pompous grin on his face that you just want to smack right off.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=516119496 Lane Kenneth Arndt

5 minutes in and i'm already disgusted at the party line that this expose seems to be towing! for any survey to do justice to the events of the war, the event itself, we cannot look at it from the vantage point of the 'terrorists against the US'. this is not how or why or how it happened and this documentary is so very dangerous in it's tone and what it can lead the weak to believe!

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Tonkin gulf incident is a standard false flag. Small controlled explosion on a military ship, far away from any civilian. The entire scene is easily control and all witnesses easily managed. Small car bomb in front of Israel embassy in the UK, also false flag, small explosion, controlled space, no casualties. A lot of simlar incidences in the Russian invasion of Kosovo, all of them small explosion with minor damage, very few casualties.

Compare the with 5 jumbo jet, 3000 casualties, million of witnesses, in the heart of the economic center of the world. 9/11 does not have any of the signs of a false flag attack, where the point is to raise alarm, give justification, not real destruction.

Just remember, we went in to Iraq with no justification, no new false flag attacks, we just did it with propaganda toward our own people. it was easy and the media was just chasing their tails (tales).

This documentary tells the real story, the clash of culture, the self for fulling prophecy. The difference in ideology and religion. how the rest of the world sees, understand, and reacts to imperialism of the west. It give good answers within the proper context that is consistent with reality. Not half baked ideas about coordinated nano- thermite demolition.

I am not denying American imperialism is evil. but the truther's argument just don't fit the facts.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Also might I petition to get this doc added to the editors pick or recommended. It is a really good doc about events of the last 10 years, and offers great insight into the mentality of the arab world. I want more people to see this and not let it get lost in the vast ocean that is the internet.

12345 Dutchy

haha it took me 1 minute and a half to figure out who is behind this docu. Don't waste your time on this

normadosky

that is the exact truth!!! we must keep creating scenarios that will justify our outrageous pentagon budget!!! one aim of the military is to reduce or eliminate government funded health care.

unfortunately for america---its people are not to bright.

The Ninth

OK, so who IS behind the documentary? Haven't watched it yet, but now you've piqued my curiosity.

The Ninth

That didn't take long--the al Jazeera logo starts with the first frame, and stays put throughout. I learned a handful of things I hadn't known before. Like, the Pakistanis claim the US drone strikes have killed over 30,000 Pakistani 4-, 2- and 3-legged nationals as sideways damages (that's the Riddle of the Sphinx, I think--here used to connote toddlers (crawl on 4 legs), bi-pedal older tykes, and the elderly, walking with a cane.) That's a whole lot of supposedly unintended population control.

The Ninth

Scheuer quoted extensively in this...wasn't he the author of Leaning Towers, the ex-CIA whistle-blower re: all the US (and al Qaeda--this is an equal opportunity critic) mistakes that were made.
It's yet another example(s), as recounted in the flick, of successive administrations' inability to develop a successful foreign policy, rather than having the US become a pariah, a rogue nation, a bully, throwing around its newfound global muscles. It is kind of amazing that our Keystone Kops managed to pull 911 off so incredibly well.

The Ninth

See also Richard Gage, AE911truth, and Kevin Ryan, fired from Underwriters Labs for not going along with the "Eversohot" and the beams "sagged" (or under-floor-pan trusses, as they're also called).

took me one minute to understand not to watch this, "oh we were watching Al Qaeda before 9/11", well no you were giving them money and training them

UncleJoe223

Does anyone STILL believe that Muslim terrorists were responsible for 9/11? If so, that's really hard to believe.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

God damn truthers watch the freaken doc. Stop trying to figure out who is behind it and judge it by the information at provides. conspiracy is easier to understand than complexity. So this doc offers the complex world, better then any other doc on the topic i have seen. You would do your self a great service to understand this doc. then you can leave your childish conspiracies behind.

noconman

In defense of truthers. Why would anyone sane oppose truth? Has any truther hurt anyone? Started a war? Tortured anyone? Killed anyone?
It seems to me that anyone who wants the truth hidden is far more dangerous.
For one to speak about truth and or question popular beliefs, faiths, and governments in our times, dooms themselves to being chastised, assaulted and branded a "nut job".
Why would one do it? Most, certainly wouldn't. Most are to afraid to see the truth and cower behind the popular opinions of whatever groups they belong to. The ultimate peer pressure.
You see, the fact is, that since all groups that insist they know and tell the truth, whether they be coporate, religous, or government, Are viewed by their followers as "truthers" are't they? So why discredit the name as indignant or shameful?
What agenda do truthers have besides exposing the lies and reasons for all the wars and atrocities that have bombarded our inhumane bloody past?
Before you lable one as crazy for only caring that the truth be known, research for yourselves. Look at motives and reasons. Are truthers selfish? are they greedy? Are they trying to get something in return? Do they tell you to just take their word? Or encourage research?
Or, are they just sensable enough to see through the smoke and mirrors that have been dictating mans governing ways of life for centuries. Endless wars, Greed and corruption, countless documented conspiracies and sanctioned mass murders of entire civilizations.
The point is, I suppose, that I do believe in truth. Not afraid of it. Not proud of it. It is simply what it is, no matter what you or I may think it is. And no amount of harrassment will make me close my eyes and pretend not to see our ugly truths.
The truth for me is that most people do not want to see it, hear it, or do anything to change it. However, conspiracies have always existed. True. They will always exist. True. The greedy and selfish men always rise to the top, commanding and ruling the common man. True. We average men and women, however good we feel we are inside, are guilty of allowing atrocities to exist. True. The common belief of many successful men is, that it's not their fault that someone was so dumb that they allowed themselves to be suckered, it's their own fault. True.
No, I don't have a theory on how to make the truth be known to anyone who looks away from it. I don't know why so many good men are blinded by such obvious manipulation of history to justify what we have all done to ourselves. The truth is, that untill one wants to see the truth, they will be blinded, first by the governments, religions, and the propaganda they spread, then by themselves.
The reason "truthers" are so diminished in respectability is partly due to the way some conduct themselves. Sometimes using foul language, ranting or claiming to know the exact details of events. Attacking people who are just blind to facts does not encourage them to look for themselves.
I believe that deep whithin, most people, know the truth. I also believe that the ones in control of our material world are aware of the truth, and profit off of it as often as possible.
I do know the truth as follows, I am a man. I live in a violent,greedy,selfish, hateful and shameful world. I am aware that I cannot change anything alone. I know that regardless of age, we are all still acting like children, fighting over toys and bullying each other over power, possesions and who knows the truth of life.
Follow whomever you want. Believe whatever you want. Live however you want. It will have no effect on the truth. I won't hate you for it. After all, we are all to blame, including myself.
And that's the truth.

lakhotason

They are not "truthers" simply because they call themselves truthers nor more than I am the King of England because I wish to call myself the King. Would you be as defferential to me as you are to them?

noconman

I understand your point. I was just pointing out that the term "truther" is used to discredit anyone who defends the truth, even when simply for the sake of the truth being told.
The truth cannot be changed by any of us.
The sad truth is we are not supposed to know the truth, just fight over it.
I even clicked like on your comment, so I suppose the truthful answer to your question would be no.

lakhotason

OK I understand. I'm a little sensitive concerning the truth. Looking for the truth doesn't require you give listen to any song that's sung.

noconman

Thanks for understanding.
The truth cannot be changed, only hidden.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

I am pretty sure the word truther apply in this context as specifically 9/11 conspiracy theorist. they call themselves truthers, and we call them truthers ironically. perhaps the great tragedy out of this entire thing is that these people tainted the word truth... dark day in deed.

If you talked to them, and challenge their views even a little, you can see they clearly do not seek the truth in anyway. Oh how quickly they will start attack you personally. it really is quite a tragedy. And I have tried to ask for their argument, i have listened to their reasons. But when you ask for clarification, oh boy do they turn on you fast. The sad thing is, they think they know so much, and their view is so complex, but it does not hold a candle up to the complexity of the real world.

This is a good doc that exposes the complexity of the real world. I am just trying my best to keep this fantastic doc from being undermined because people think it is a truther doc.

noconman

I Wish more people would watch this one too. This event has changed our lives and made us all out to be global bullies. Willing to strike first out of anger. Willing to ignore many facts that contridict logic, reason and even physics.
I do not know who the real conspiracists are, however, when you look at motives, even law enforcement looks first at the ones closest to you, your own family. They will always look at who gains financially. Then they will collect evidence and do a proper investigation.
There has been more than enough evidence surface to doubt that a proper investigation was done. Much of it may be circimstancial, but that does not deem it unworthy of looking at in a court of law.
The question is not if there was a conspiracy, but rather, which conspiracy theory is true. This is the proper way to look at this issue.
As for myself, my only theory is, divide and conquer really works. You do not need to believe all the details that truthers spout. But you should research for yourself. I believe that there is enough evidence to convince most that the truth has not been told. While we argue amongst ourselves, the ones who conspired to to do this, are laughing at us all. They surely believe that they have gotten away with it and that even if the truth comes out now, nobody would believe it. Even if they did, what could we do about it.
Sadly, nothing. Not as long as we cannot even unite long enough to agree that a proper investigation needs to take place. We spent more on Clintons affair ($100 mil?) than on this tragic event?
If you do not believe that the official story makes complete sense to you for any reason at all, do not get caught up in the childish arguements and name calling that divide us. Just agree that we deserve to know the outcome of a real and unbiased investigation. Before it's to late.
What motives would inspire truthers to be so passionate that we were sold a lie? What do they hope to gain? What could they possibly gain if they could get a proper investigation that wouldn't benefit us all?
If the government wanted to stop this war between us, (truthers and patriots) we are one in the same in my eyes. Wouldn't they just show us all of the pictures of the plane that hit the pentagon? Wouldn't they properly explain WTC7 collapse? Why was no one punished for their lack of response or prior knowledge of the threat? Why won't they address the valid questions?
No, I do not believe thay want us to know the truth. They only want us to fight over it.
If we could get a real investigation, we may be able to get back some of the checks and balances that we were supposed to have in our society that were put there to help insure against a runaway government. They seem to be gone now for good.
History is doomed to repeat itself. And it's all our fault for allowing our government to make us work for them, instead of our government working for us.
That's another sad truth.

Questguy

how can they dare say that islam countries are violent but christian are not,,,...? Is al jazeera really an arabic station??? hahahahah!

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

When did they say christians are not? they showed picture of the poverty of the occupied territories, they show the destruction. they showed Americans killing innocent people? they even interviewed a slaughtered wedding party, (it could be argued (although i would not) that this is a highly emotional appeal and biased against the US) what more do you want?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Real investigation is not the point of the truther movement. it never has been. Just like finding real communist was never the point of McCarthyism. The truther movement is not about truth at all, it is based on a profound individualist distrust of any authority. No amount of investigation can stop this conspiracy theory and you know that. Don't pretend this is about evidence.

Ask yourself what government agency would you trust to do an investigation? Is there a government agency that can look into the issue and come up with a answer you would believe in regardless of what the answer is?

What the truther is looking for is an investigation who's answer would fit their preconceived notion. If (naming random department) EPA did a investigation into the possible use of thermite, and their answer is thermite is impossible, would you believe them? what about if they conclude that thermite is indeedly used, would you believe them? Truthers are not really looking for real evidence, they are like creationists, they just look for things that confirm what they believe in.

There has been an investigation. it is call the 9/11 commission. That is the government's investigation. If you choose not to believe in the government's investigation, then don't ask for another government investigation. How could another government investigation help convince you? Do the truthers plan to keep on asking for more investigations until one of them confirms their preconceived notions?

Independent investigations have been done to truther's claim. They have been found false. There was no dynamite and thermite can't take down buildings. but as soon as there things are published, truthers accuse them of working for the government. This has happened many times already. I have personally been accused of being a government agent just because i was calling the truther's BS.

For example, How would the pictures of plane hitting the pentagon help solve anything? If you believe these "super planner" can control planes to fly into the WTC, why would they change method for the pentagon? Would a new investigation showing conclusive evidence showing planes crashing into the pentagon kill the conspiracy theory? No, not for a second. As soon as such a disclosure is made, the truther movement would just move on to something else like it has already done so many times already. So it really is an irreverent question for you.

We can only learn from history if we have a clear understanding of what history is. From 9/11, History teaches us that enemy of my enemy is not my friend. Al Qaeda while useful for fighting USSR, will turn on you. history teaches us the hypocrisy around the world kills your credibility. (US talk about supporting democracy, yet supports so many dictators, and overthrow stable democracy who rejects capitalism). We need to learn that War is easily, rebuilding is hard. These are real lessons we need to learn, and we need to learn them now, cause we are walking down the same path with Iran.

So you truthers, abandon your per-conceived notions and learn from real history. You might think your little theories are complicated, but the real world is so much more complicated.

noconman

I had no pre-concieved notions as you put it. Like anyone else who did not expect the event (unlike our government), I only wittnessed it, and then came to the conclusion that there is far more to the story than our leaders and media are telling, only after researching.
You side step the notion that a real image of a plane hitting the pentagon or addressing any of the inconsistancies of the government story (we had no idea or warning they would use a plane, NORAD was to busy, etc.) would help put this matter to rest. I disagree. It would show that they are not hiding anything. Yet they refuse to answer real questions by intelligent people who only want the truth. Many of them experts from all fields, pilots, engineers etc. Yet you put them all in the same loony bin basket for only wanting truthful answers.
Yes, the real world is complicated, and the CT stories are the most complicated. Not that I buy all of them.
The official story that a man in a cave did this is laughable at best.
You must need some new history books, If you cannot see what our past has shown.
Some of my (native American) ancesters had a front row seat to history, and they learned from the real world that it is very complicated. I do believe that their pre-concieved notion that the American government was very capable of lying, stealing, and killing Americans, was correct.
History eventually shows, the ugly atrocities of man to men.
Truth cannot be changed, only hidden for a while.

Questguy

Yeung, the commentator was directly saying that islamic people tend to be more violent than christians where this is not the case for the latter (and it was showing images of christian/american civilisation)...It was real funny!

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

sorry i missed the joke.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

First, I never group people to be loonies without listening to what they have to say. But if they say loony things like, then i reserve the right to call them loonies. Second, there is also a lot of experts who are not in support of the conspiracy theories. (arguably more)These intelligent people looked at the evidence, and does not think there is anything wrong with the official account, or think that the conspiracy theory makes far less sense then the official account. How do you treat their point of view, are they invalid?

I have tracked this truther movement for a while, and the idea that all we are missing is one more piece if disclosure or evidence and we will put the whole thing to rest is a red haring. when one evidence shows up, the movement simply moves on to something else.

A good example of this I have seen unfold is the question on what kind of explosive was used to bring down the building. The truther movement started with dynamite, like normal demolitions. They demanded people test for the existence of dynamite. When it was shown through multiple sampling that there was no traces to dynamite, someone proposed thermite.

Thermite is harder to disprove because it's composition is similar to the burning of normal construction material. they cried, why no test for thermite, what is the government hiding? Oh if they only do a test for Thermite, then that will put the inconsistencies to rest. When it was shown through basic math and testing that the amount of thermite that is needed to melt steel columns would be astronomical, someone propose "nano-thermite".

Nano-thermite only exist in theory and is at the very early stage of development. no one is sure if it exists or not. but this also means no one can test this new theory. now they cry, why does the government not release data on research into nano-thermite? what are they hiding? and the game goes on. Truther will keep on posing more impossible theories and ask for more impossible evidence. and they will always say, just one more evidence will solve the issue. that argument is a total red haring.

noconman

Look up 9/11 experiments on thermite and you will see that it is possible to direct and control a burn.
There are to many half hearted examples of thermite tests in main stream videos. This has made some believe it would require much more of it than would be practical.
However, I am not saying it was used, only a possibility that shoud be addressed more thoroughly, and seriously.
A backyard demonstration by a novice shows clearly how his homemade thermite is able to cut through steel easily.
It sounds to me that you do not have any doubts, or believe that there was anything odd about the destruction of three bldgs due to fire. Especially #7. No jet fuel or plane hit it.
Have you looked at their pancake theory either? How did the jet fuel get to the foundation and remove all resistance? That is the only way a building can drop without slowing a little at each floor as it drops
Something, somehow, undermined the foundations to allow freefall into their own footprints. What about pools of molten steel that burned for weeks?
This is not normal, and they do not even address it.
Oh well, If you're satisfied with the governments investigation and see no reason to doubt their own conspiracy theory that puts the blame on a few terrorists with impecible timing and luck to get past N.O.R.A.D. and pull this off, Then I am wasting time explaining why I, and many other intelligent people doubt the official story.
Thanks for disgussing this with me, without name calling.

Another21stCenturySlave

why did i feel i had to read all these comments & arguments from people with no expertise wotsoever on this topic?? ....off to sign myself into muckamore abbey psyciatric ward. . . ______________

if top documetaries had a soaps section, then this movie most certainly belongs there..propagandaaaaaaaaa...5 mins offfs ... btw..why does this narrator sound like a familiar BBC narrator?

http://profile.yahoo.com/LUZV36OUPM4C4NOPAYSFVPWID4 Michael

blow back and blow hard! (Saudi al Saudi)
a handful of terrorists/freedom fighters? I am glad South America has less to do with the united states lately(rehab and libertarianism). Power has a freakishly skewed value of mortal life! MORTAL LIFE! grotesquely racist and out of all proportions, when it comes political/economical reasons. Attacks on 9/11 in 1973 says so much more about an American ideologue. The joke we had as Scottish children; is less now a joke, because of the furrowed brow of the American fanatic. How do normal secularists deal with such extremists? how can we calm down the fanatics? if you want to stop "AMERICAN" death! try a large scale stop smoking, drinking, dieting, better driving, exercise program.
It is not about lives... It is about keeping war going forever and ever!
drugs is an object and terrorism is a description.
you are fighting objects and descriptions?
and mortal lives are blow back to the largest expenditure of all Americas (not including prisoners), you are welcome taxpayer! hahahaha...
al Qaeda is a franchise like McDonald.
anyone can open a burger joint! trade marks are easy!
where there is American smoke there is firearms!

noconman

The thermite experiment that I saw, showed an ammature experimenter, fasion simple devices to direct and control the burn with incredibly destructive force. With only a homemade mixture he was able to cut through steel like butter. I do not remember his name but it was easy to find by searching 9/11 experiments. I can only imagine what real scientific research, with military grade thermite could do.
You claim that the resistance would not have to be removed, just reduced to less than the force of gravity. The question is then, what removed that resistance. Fire was nowhere near the lower structure, or hot enough to have traveled down the collums to undermine the foundation. The pancake theory not only would have visable slowing at each level but the main inner collums would have still been visably standing after ther floors dropped to the lower levels. Also, the speed that they dropped, very close to freefall, would indicate that the inner collum support resistance was removed rapidly and evenly or the towers would have tipped over. It would be hard to have thousands of welds fail at the same speed on every floor. There are plenty examples available of pancake damage. None of them look like the destruction that we saw there.
As far as bldg 7, it is plainly visable to see a complete and uniform drop with demolition type precission. It was not hit by a plane, fires where far away from the foundation, and yet something removed all support instantaniously and uniformly throughout the entire base of the bldg. Not a partial collapse near the damage, complete rapid disinegration with no apparent resistance. Need I mention that fire has never done this before in the history of fire. There is no theory, other than demolition that fits the physics of this example, in my humble opinion.
If you want me to speculate on why these things occurred, I won't.
I do not want to stray from the how questions. The why questions are for those who conspired to do this to know, and will never be revieled to us untill we can all agree that there unanswered how questions that do not add up in their official explainations and demand answers.
By their own theory, our officials look as incompetent as keystone cops.. N.O.R.A.D. was to busy to protect the most protected airspace in the world?, They never thought anyone would use planes? Even though it was in the presidential briefings, and the training exercises that confused our fighters included scenarios of the same events that were happening?
If their own story is true, then I would like to no why no one was punished or lost their job for being asleep at the wheel. Why did many of them instead get promotions and praise? That usually only happens for exellent performance and following orders.
There are more than enough How questions to be answered before I will waste my time speculating on why. But I do not believe the evidence supports the conspiracy theory that our government has given us.
Thanks again for a real discussion. I know I will never forget this tragidy or stop wondering How they (whoever they are) pulled it off without more people outraged over the event and demanding to know the Hows. We have only touched on a couple of those questions that defy logic, reason and physics.
I will let others argue over why. We know it was done, I want real answers as to how it was done, then the why and who may be apparent.

globalunitea

I'm one of the truthers you asked. As I told you then, it was all done for money and power. I disagree with everything you have to say especially concerning "truthers". We want answers, not just to wastefully ask questions. But more importantly, we want MOST people to ask questions instead of blindly trusting the government and financing these wars. When/if we do get answers, there are always 100 more questions because that's what the government explanations and half truths and poor science create.

There has not been much effort in covering up 911. Unanswered questions have simply gone unanswered, or the inquisitive made to look crazy for asking. In many cases, if a person of power asks questions, they are silenced either through a media blackout or even an untimely death. You and I can't even conceive the sums of $$ being made by the people paying or threatening politicians to keep the wars going. For months (at least), I've read you picking and picking at people who question the official story of the salesmen who sold us war. We have killed HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of INNOCENT civilians. In fact, I pay for it, every payday AND I'm in debt to my government because of wars I pay/paid for. And yet, several very powerful people have profited trillions $$$ - the same families (and bankers) who ALWAYS profit from war. And yes, they were involved in this false flag -- including the Bush family (can you believe the super duper coincidence that the Bush family was in the White House during 911??? cha-ching!$$$!!). Stop poking around asking this same question and get informed about who is profiting from these wars, and then follow the money right back to 911 and other false flags... Pearl Harbor, WWII, Golf of Tonkin - Vietnam, Lusitania and WWI . I mean, I appreciate that you want to know, but I think YOU are the person you describe. You tirelessly ask the question "why" and pretend that 911 happened inside a bubble and there was no war or profit prior or following for the benefit of the same individuals throughout history.

And lastly, as for the intelligent, qualified people who don't stand up and disagree or pose questions publicly, might I remind you that they would lose credibility for being "truthers" (at least). I'm fine with being called a CT - the founding fathers anticipated this and warned us never to trust the government nor the bankers. And we are presently witnessing the result of blind trust in both. Anyone with rank who wants to stand up against them can go to Youtube and watch their predecessors die who dared to go against the system. Just ask the ones who tried to convert to a gold monetary system which would have destroyed the dollar (ie. Kennedy, Hussein, Gaddafi) - no film of Lincoln but there was an audience. However, Bin Ladin's death? Nooo... I mean, lets have some respect. The people cannot handle the image of a dead Bin Ladin. Why do you keep asking why?? It's about money (money=power)! Why nano-thermite or thermate? MONEY! Why WTC7? $$$!! Why the first steel structures to collapse due to fire in history? Money! Money! Money! For the love of god, Money!!! THAT'S WHY. It is not a freakin cover-up.. They are not ashamed, nor scared nor hiding from the truth because most people, like you, don't even believe it. People like you, the majority, actually protect the monsters who kill for profit by the simple act of ignorance.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

You exemplify why I say truthers opt for a simple view of the world. You have no detailed explination for anything. Why did people do it? money. how did they do it? cause they are all powerful. who are these people? people with money. Why do they have to kill people to achieve this plan? why not. How many people was involved in this plan? tens of thousands, as many as it takes. Conspiracy is easier to understand than complexity.

Such simple answers does not address the complexities of the world. The difference in culture and perception. The true conflict between the arab nation and the west. Why the Arab nations want democracy, but does not want the democracy we bring them. Without learning from real history, not this fake bullish history, we can't move forward as a society. We would spend all our time chasing shadows without bring about meaningful change in the world.

The war in Iraq have shown that nations can go to war with nothing more then propaganda. The idea that we need to thousand of people to carry out a coordinated plan and kill 3000 american citizens to justify a war underestimates how easily the population can be manipulated by well coordinated media control. We can go to war with nothing, we are about to go to war with iran over nothing.

And when noconman talks about people that gives the truther movement a bad name, he is talking about you. When he walk, he treats me as an equal. therefore i give him the same respect, even though i might not agree with him. You seem unable to carry on a rational conversation. So from now on I am going to ignore you.

The laws of physics are not 'speculation', as you so nicely put it. There is nothing to speculate, just wondering about how many 'coincidences' it needs to make someone like you think the unthinkable, see the (not so) invisible, and reveal the secrets that lie before your eyes.

The 'research papers' you are missing are out there - but you can only find what you are looking for. Hundreds of people already published scientifically detailed examinations on the case.

The 'simple answers' you're talking about were given by the government and all the institutes working for their account, not the truthers. These answers are for people who want to continue being sheeple, who believe if they just don't look it is not there, who can't imagine something like this could have a deeper meaning even for them, or that it's not their concern, who can't believe there could be a much more sinister background to it all, and their government could never do this to them. People who are then doing exactly what it needs for evil to triumph... nothing.

It doesn't matter if some of the hundreds of pieces of evidence are not valid - there are still hundreds of pieces left - and it takes only ONE valid piece of evidence to prove a theory wrong. You shouldn't look at what you think you have found an explanation for - but all the things for which you didn't find one.

The burden of proof is not on the shoulders of the truthers btw - but on the shoulders of those who proclaimed the 'official' story.

And if that shouldn't be enough, ask yourself the inevitable question:
Qui bono? Who benefits?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Well again citation is good. hundreds of people researched, cite one of them. preferably the one with the thermite evidence. if it is out there show me.

The burden of Proof is about proving yourself right. I shouldn't need to prove everyone else wrong. If you think it is thermite, that is a truth claim. Your job to prove it. It's not my job prove you wrong, just like it's not my job to prove it's not Israel, not my job to prove it's not Aliens. It's not the official account's job to chase all of your wild speculations. Cause there is an infinite way to speculate, and it would be impossible to chase them all down, which is I think the truthers' plan.

And I really like your claim that even if hundred of claims are wrong, as long as one thing is right, eventually, you are good. At least you admit that the truther strategy is keep throwing **** until something sticks. Just got to keep throwing and keep hoping cause eventually something will confirm your preconceive narrative based on no evidence. (that sounds like religion).

It is no secret that i am a Marxist theorist, so I spent my life looking in to the evils of capitalism, and thinking about ways to fight it. So your accusation that I fall for hegemonic forces is pretty thin. If anything, from a political perspective, I am on your side. So don't argue this from a political perspective, cause I am already there. I am probably more radical then you.

But factually, there is just nothing that backs your claims up. There is enough real failing of capitalism to justify a revolution. We need to focus on reality and work from there.

oddsrhuge

"There has been an investigation. it is call the 9/11 commission."

It's actually called the "911 Commission Report". And it proved to me that many people are much more willing to believe that:

Authority is the Truth as opposed to Truth is the authority.

Seriously now. Probability in the case of this summary was IGNORED, completely. Math and physics are hard to refute. Insurance companies depend upon these factors when determining a policy.

Also: Till now

any investigation of a cataclysmic event, prior to "this" report, was conducted using scientific method, as well as using a standardized forensic system, that could be seamlessly duplicated by any scientist or investigator, who might have to take over later in the process.

The primary charateristic of "scientific method is:

"The scientist conducts intensive investigations and experiments, using as much of the available material in an attempt to let reality speak for itself, and to potentially contradict their theories about it, when those theories may be incorrect."

If you accept this document as proof of the government's own conspiracy claims, then you accept the method (s) used to arrive at it's conclusion. Which, basically declares that the initial mainstream dialogue as truth, without the need for any real scrutiny beyond this dialogue.

Or have you even looked at this document? If you have and accept it as it stands... Then I truly hope that you are not hoping for a career in research. It ignores research for conclusion, based on supposition

And incidentally, most truthers DON'T want the Government to try again. They would like an independant body to "give it a go." Maybe, using the method that MOST scientists accept as the norm.

WTC7

@ Yeung Xiao (I hope I spelled it correctly),

It seems there is not much that is your job. Basically nothing. Why do you bother I wonder sometimes :). No, really, you apparently think everything is so clean and clear about 911 that I really wonder why would someone of your conviction even attempt to convince someone that pursues different view, illogical, be so important to you :). Especially if there is nothing more that you can contribute to the issue from your poit of view, as you yourself state.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

I am not sure how to respond to this, you make no truth claim and do not identify anything wrong with official account. except that it does not use science. If you can identify the part or one of the part that your believed to be unscientific that would be helpful.

And the thing with science is that anyone can test it. You can test it. I see a pretty large truther community, if you have the conviction of your words get some money together and fund a truly independent test. After all, would the truther believe something funded by the government. I don't think so. I am more then happy to see some tests. For example, show the amount of thermite you need to melt through a vertical construction beam. that would help.

I also see you use to word probable. Probability is hard to understand for most people. For example, if I win the lottery, the probability of me fairly winning is astronomically low. so does not mean I probably cheated? or probably can predict the future?

Or if i roll the dice 1000 times and come up with a long list of number. What is the chance of getting all those numbers in that order, 1/(6^1000) = 1/ (1.41* 10^778). But none the less a sequence has to happen. It is the same probably for all sequences. It is easy to look at the outcome and say that is not probable but something has to happen.

So you are going to have to be specific about probabilities.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

@WTC7 (I know I have spelled it correctly cause it is called copying)

I have no idea what you are talking about. what job are you talking about? I think it is important for us to have a citizenship who's view of the world is based in reality. The US foreign for so many generation have been based on crazy and lazy misunderstanding of the world's Geo-political landscape. It has done so much harm and chaos in the world. This documentary is a very good reflection of the complex geo-politics of the middle east. I just want to make sure as much people see it with an open mind as possible. If that means countering truther comments, I will do what i have to do.

oddsrhuge

Okay. This is a fair assessment of my reply. So in order for me to give you some cohesive arguments that we can discuss. I need you to tell me that you have read and have an available copy of the commission report. (it is easily accessed in PDF from multiple sites, online. I won't add one here because that always delays the posting of my replies) we can then disect the issues I have noted and have problems with, in it's content.

And I have to say that just because certain people DO NOT understanding probability, doesn't give anyone who may understand it, licence to create a simplfied version of random numbers coming up in a sequence and calling it an argument (or for that matter an explanation of probability).

So:
Before I debate you as to whether the weight of evidence favours the official version, or that of, as you have called them, truthers. Read the report (have a copy handy) and then we can get to the specifics.

Fair enough?

I have to add that this excercise could prove very futile. Most of the issues I have with this specific investigation, has to do with what ISN'T in the report and what wasn't looked into. I would have to say that the exclusion of one of the largest steel framed buildings in the world (the Solomon Bros, or now better known as WTC7) falling into itself, not even getting an honorable mention, is relatively significant.

WTC7

"@WTC7 (I know I have spelled it correctly cause it is called copying)"

Sorry, couldn't help it, always wanted to be a world trade center building.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Those random numbers are meant to show a point, but i guess i will bring up that example again when you tell me the probability argument, I know what the argument probably is.

And you are right, this exercise could prove futile. Cause if all you are going to do is bring up things that did not get looked into, we just end up chasing wild incoherent conjecture around. Asking people to disprove things is not scientific. If you make a truth claim, you have to show the evidence. but i am willing to listen, may be there are enough things to raise to the level of suspicion. but even then, it really does not mean much without a alternate theory.

What i am looking for is a coherent alternate theory of events that fits with available evidence. I has to do at least better then the current theory in addressing problematic areas.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

I see. Passive aggressiveness passing off as argument. As much as I like to be flooded with a torrent of context-less innuendo, wait i don't cause it makes no real arguments. By using videos like that, the truthers are making no truth claim, I can't argue against that because it argued nothing.

I am sorry I am asking for evidence when you are questioning other people's evidence. I don't even want to chase your imaginary friends as it takes too long to chase down all of the wild fantasies, and proposed links.

How about we get the basics down before we starting making castles in the sky. basic question like how did the building fall. why bother blowing up wt7. what happened to all the people on the airplane. Would one plane not be enough for a war? how much theremite does it take to melt through a vertical steel supporting column. like basic logical question before all of your fancy theory can have a place to stand on.

Having a good imagination is good. but imagination not based in evidence is just hallucinations.

oddsrhuge

...."without a alternate theory". That is just the end of one of your sentences.

Can of Worms, is another way to put it.

There are so many theories right now, it boggles my mind. Ten or twelve of the most vocal people in the "anti-government conspiracy theory" could walk you thru a day in the life of 911. (that is if you could muddle thru the BS) However, I have done this issue to death and now I am tired.

I am uncomfortable with several aspects that have rarely even been addressed. Therefore the wealth of evidence that shows the Government report was duplicitous only supports my hypothesis and only adds to my suspicion.

I am, if nothing else, very methodical. I like to suppose and theorize based upon initial evidence. However, my theories need to be reviewed and criticized. If I can't be rebutted, AWESOME. If I can be rebutted, even better, it means that somebody thought, instead of somebody was "told".

Critical thinking occurs when you listen (LISTEN), to other people's opinions and weigh them versus your own.

Cheers

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

And I am the same way. I ask people what do they believe hoping they can convince me i am wrong. And forget the fansy castle in the sky theories. Show me good evidence that the building was not brought down by the planes. Show me good evidence that there was a good reason for building 7 to be demolished. They truthers are so far away from being able to properly ask the who question. they still stuck on the what happened question. forget the who, and the why, lets just get the what and the how. And the truther can't even give a good theory on that. The entire thing is so full of holes.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Paul-Lozba/100000642071283 Paul Lozba

I believe that you don't really need high IQ to realize that 9/11 was an inside job, a false flag operation, another game on the agenda of some very sick and powerful people, rulling all the politic & corporate games in this world! Wake up and close your TVs for good!

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

You are right, you don't need a really high IQ to understand that. Which is exactly my point. That is because these simple conspiracy theory appeal to people without really high IQ.
For people with higher IQ, they look at the real world. Which is the complex ideological interaction between USA foreign policy and it's reaction around the world. Our historical interaction with the cold war USSR, and how US foreign policy is still fooled by the same misunderstand of Arabic nations today. The real world is complex and takes High IQ to understand.

WTC7

Initially, I had no intention of replying to this. But, since you implicitly bring your high IQ into the picture, I will ask you: how high of an IQ does one have to have to be able to comprehend the difference between singular and plural in basic grammar? The answer is - not too high. Let alone to understand the intricacies of the US foreign policy...

On that note, how did which building fall? What happened to all the people in which airplane?

As to your other questions:
- Why bother blowing wtc7 - I don't know. It hosted offices of several government institutions like DoD, CIA, IRS & SEC (which at that time was investigating Enron & the files were destroyed), it was leased to Larry Silverstein two weeks before 911. But you tell me, why did a solid 47-floor building, not hit by a plane, damaged only by a few fires and some debris from the towers that collapsed earlier, collapse by a controlled demolition? Even FEMA report, after providing possible reasons for its collapse, concluded that the causes of collapse need to be investigated further. In addition, why did BBC World News report (and embarrass itself to the point that they had to subsequently defend themselves of not being part of any conspiracy) on its collapse before it collapsed? So, I don't know why somebody bothered but there are fishy elements in the story and it doesn't add up.

- Would one plane not be enough for a war? - Maybe, but more appear to be more effective.

- How much thermite does it take to melt through a vertical steel supporting column? - if you believe that not one but all the many vertical supporting columns can be taken by simple fire, you should be able to assume that not much of it is needed. Personally, I have no idea how much. However, knowing that G.W. Bush's brother was one of the principals of the security company that was in charge of the security of the buildings, I guess that it was not too difficult to place even large amounts of it where it in any of the collapsed buildings. I am sure you do understand the potential of being in control of security of the WTC.

As you said, having [a] good imagination is good. However, imagination is essential in arts and other fields where abstract thinking is needed. Using imagination in politics would be as useful as using knowledge of politics in art.

It would probably be more effective for your theory to accept the challenge of @sa and disprove the conspiracists' claims with the support of the official document. I am not surprised you didn't take up that challenge though.

WTC7

It actually doesn't take a high IQ to understand how the real world works. It takes a bit of knowledge of theoretical politics and international relations and a lot of reading of various (often dramatically opposing) accounts of historic and current events.

WTC7

"Tonkin Golf incident is a standard false flag. Small controlled explosion on a military ship, far away from any civilian. The entire scene is easily control[led] and all witnesses easily managed."

That is your response to the (officially confirmed) conspiracy to expand the Vietnam war. Don't forget how many American lives were lost there, if you don't consider the lives of those of Vietnamese people. "Small controlled explosion..." - is that all you know and can say about this officially recognized government conspiracy whose consequence was such a huge number of not only Vietnamese lives lost but also those of US citizens? (Check on the numbers if you are interested). And you still can say governments will not sacrifice the lives of their own people if their percieved cause is justified?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Oh I know the US government are willing to sacrifice there own people. But the false flag event itself was very well controlled. Tonkin golf incident had 3-4 moving parts in it (the bomb, the ship... and I am sure there is more.) Easy to setup, easy to control and there is no stray video footage. Once the dirty part is over, and the war is justified we can move on from there.

If the US wanted to invade Afghanistan, it would be easy to use similar tactics. A small Car bomb exploding outside of US embassy in Israel would do the trick. In the middle of the night. pretend 3 people is dead. invasion. It is easy. If 9/11 was that, I would be more inclined to believe in false flag.

Compare that plan to what happen on 9/11. There needed to be 3 demolition team. 3 remote control airplane team, a missile for the pentagon team, Insiders in Norad, a fake phone simulating team, Airplane passenger relocation team (that is still going on today). I don't even thing the truther realize how many people it would take to pull off this plan they are proposing.

batvette

City building engineers held up a transit to WTC 7 several hours before it collapsed, and noted a pronounced lean to the structure and columns in critical lower floors bowing outward. Firefighters reported the building was creaking and groaning. They all knew it was almost certain to come down, and knew it long before it happened. BBC was on the scene and was reporting on an anticipated event. They made a mistake, okay? Or do you believe the BBC is all in on it too?
It should be noted that not only was WTC 7 hit by a large chunk of the towers, the fires in it were not fought , they were left to burn unattended. Several floors were full of chemicals from transformers and huge tanks of diesel fuel, it was a Con Edison substation. That is significant when you start thinking about "this has never happened before".

batvette

Are you saying the collapse of WTC7 was not investigated? It was. It took long enough that they did not include it in the Congressional 9/11 report nor the initial NIST report, but it was done and it's sound.
I'm not familiar with the 9/11 commission report and frankly I think that one's an exercise in futility debating over. Congressional committees are always political dog and pony shows, and it's easy to mistake people covering their asses for incompetence to be culpability in some great conspiracy instead.
I'd certainly have no problem defending the NIST report though. That's science, not politics.

batvette

"The 'research papers' you are missing are out there - but you can only find what you are looking for. Hundreds of people already published scientifically detailed examinations on the case."

Not in peer reviewed scientific journals they didn't. In fact most were so absurd they had to start their own journal to even have them see the light of day.

I don't buy into the idea that the hundreds of people who worked on the NIST report for the government were all so evil their complicity could be bought. I don't believe the thousands of law enforcement people involved would be easily bought off either. In fact the number of people who would have to be kept silenced in this easily reaches the hundreds of thousands all told, and I do not believe it's been ten years and none came forward-

but here the very reason for these alleged evil figures to do this was to get rich, and yet look at the economic damage this has caused America- in the end I think since these people all would have a diversified portfolio, the very motive posited simply does not pan out at all.

batvette

"For months (at least), I've read you picking and picking at people who question the official story of the salesmen who sold us war. "

The salesmen who "sold us war"?

When was your input asked on a war? When did we go to the polls and vote on it? Why would anyone have to "sell" you a war when you and I have no say in the matter?

We have killed "hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians"? Really?

What color is the uniform of an insurgent? A foreign militant Muslim fighter? What insignia is on the uniform of a Taliban fighter?

Were the 19 hijackers wearing military uniforms? Are they "innocent civilians"?

You seem to have a lot to say about money and the cost of wars. Would that be in today's dollars or the dollars of the peacenik fantasy alternative reality where we didn't remove Saddam and he got off sanctions and with the French, Russians and Chinese all putting their combined petroleum exploration resources to work in the world's last unexploited high pressure light sweet crude fields, and using the petroleum to goods pipeline established by the UN's oil for food program, destroyed US dollar hegemony in world markets through Euro based petroleum futures sales in Paris?
Why do you think Chirac was so pissed about the war?
Google "petrodollars." Saddam wasn't stupid. He was mounting an attack on us not with bombs, but with oil.

Oh on this:

"Why the first steel structures to collapse due to fire in history? "

And you accuse others of ignorance? Is that really all that happened that day? A fire?

WTC7

I don't understand why you wish to talk about buildings 3, 4, 5 & 6 as that is certainly not in support of your argument, but since you mentioned them then you better remember that none of them collapsed to the ground, although they were all covered in tons of debris from the 1 & 2 and suffered fires in their interiors that lasted for hours. The Marriott hotel (building 3) was directly beneath the Twin Towers and literally thousands of tons of rubble from them fell on top of it. Did it collapse? I guess you know the answer.

Your argument about how the WTC7 collapsed is less anything but compelling and if I could believe in such trash we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Check your independent expert again - you probably missed the information that he took part in writing of one section of the NIST report.

Seems that you're not that bad with insinuations yourself and I suppose you already know what I would like to gladly remind you about (little castles in the sky? how about some real arguments?).

Also, check the long list of all sorts of engineers who don't accept the official explanations of the fall of any of the three WTC buildings. I am not an engineer, just like, I assume, you are not one, and can't provide information from the engineering perspective, but I am sure some of these people could. Why not investigate with them how is it that they can be so ignorant as not to see things your way?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

You see the thing with science is, anyone can do it. Just because expert assessed the NIST report as a part of there evidence pool, does not mean they are in on the conspiracy. This is independent because they are experts who are independent of a government agency. I am not sure how you are defining independent, but i am starting to think it might be defined as in another universe.

It would be nice to see that long list of engineer propose a theory and hold it up against available evidence such as structural plans and video footage like the report I cited was, then it would be great. I would have to read it and compare the two sides. For example a similar report on how a reasonable amount of thermite can take out an undamaged building would be great.

But you give me nothing, no science, no citation, no theory and only innuendo. You know how to dismiss anything that does not follow your belief but you know nothing about how to make actual arguments.

I proposed how the building went down, made a factual argument and found citation. You don't propose how the building went down, You admit you don't know why, just what do you know?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

I know you are on my side on the truther thing but i can't agree with you on this front. We have done some horrible things in theses countries. Watch the doc for a fairly balanced account of the daily atrocities committed by US in the name of freedom. People of Afghanistan and Iraq give us a chance to prove ourselves and we failed.

Seriously watch the doc, I think it will explain the whole situation far better then I ever could.

oddsrhuge

Once again, I have to leave this topic. MY epilogue is:

Two generations from now, when the truth is finally revealed...It will be sold as a "Sad Day In US History". The really sad part, will be that it will probably be used to mask the current "false flag" event.

brutusaurio

The truth is, everything was a mistake.
The truth is, thousands were killed.
The truth is, that should have never happened.
And the best part is, that the hole world is awaking

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

What is this a poetry reading? I can mock you for not making real arguments. or i can join you. so here we go poetry battle.

The world does not hate US for it's freedoms,
The world hates US for it's blatant hypocrisy.
US supported dictator and monarchies in their Kingdoms,
Yet they go to war, claiming to fight for democracy.

The Citizens of US can't see these simple facts,
They think these invasions stop evil in their tracks.
It is these crazy decision, based on false information,
using the thinnest justification, that ignites war between nations.

Watch this documentary, Ignore truther commentary.
See the face of Arab people, not the myth of a hidden devil.

Watch, and be informed. Bring forth a now era in the world.

Peace.

Attaboyslim

The Truth? come on, you guys don't want the truth, you want more fairy tails of the Big Bad Wolf ... that is what you really want, right? If it is truth you seek, contemplate first; the reason for Osama Bin Laden being a CIA asset known as Tim Osmond and then ask yourself about our safety. Whether you believe he worked for the CIA or not, you are suggesting that a single person pulled off the greatest attack in world history against the strongest military power in world history. and that we are somehow, 'safe'?

While you're in that soul searching mode, you may want to consider the number of times the US has invaded other countries and over thrown other Governments from Iran to Chile and how many civilian deaths have been caused by that action. Then, and only then will you begin to understand the reason for the world hatred for the US Government ... not the US citizens. You are welcome to use my little exercise in finding the truth or you can simply wait for the proof. The awful truth of the US Governments true brutality will soon be revealed to every citizen in this country and the signs are all around.

You may have noticed the events of the Constitutional violations and the blatant disregard for the Bill of Rights but it will get terribly bad, much worse than that even. I would suggest that you use the people of Europe and how they suffered under Hitler but you people apparently, don't believe in history and that will be your downfall.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

To say Osama Bin Laden, did it by himself is a strawman argument. No one said he did it by himself. CIA funded his network to fight the russians, he then turned that funding back to us. If you watch the doc, you will see that he recruits and trains through a complex network. To say a single person that committed 9/11, is like saying Bush invaded Iraq by himself. The statement is ridiculous.

And I agree the US is not a force for good in the world. The world hate the US cause we are hypocrites. if you read my comments closely you will see we are making the same arguments on this front. so no need to get all high and mighty on me here. I know Iran, I know Chile, and I know there is a lot more. But the Citizens of US support these crappy wars cause they can't see things from the other perspective. These are not new to me.

Watch the doc, it describe the situation really will, and provides a lot of good historical context. This is a very enlightened doc, just watch it it makes a lot of sense.

http://www.facebook.com/james.langevin James Langevin

It's very simple. Fires don't bring down steel frame buildings. It's well documented this was a false flag operation from the start.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GHSIXA5P4RA4SYMMRVOUSZW5E4 Mike

Google, "September Clues" for a look at what really happened.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GHSIXA5P4RA4SYMMRVOUSZW5E4 Mike

For an eye opener Google "September Clues".

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

I am not watching another 4 hour doc repeating the same already refuted argument over and over. Just give me your best argument and we can go from there.

bowleycr

Of course, yet again their hypothesis is all hinged on the heat of the fire. It has been well documented that all of the fires in WTC 7 were not critical fires, that they all were fueled by office furnishings. The temperatures in WTC 7 never got above 800F-1200F. The loss of one column does not explain away the pools of molten steel that survived under WTC 7 (as well as WTC 1 and 2) for over 8 weeks.

You also do not concede to the FACT that the only steel structure buildings to ever collapse due to fire, before or since, were the three WTC buildings aforementioned. Putting it simply, the fires, even with the addition of Jet grade fuel, never got hot enough to compromise the integrity of the steel...ever.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Thank you random guy on the internet providing un-sourced facts. wow so well documented is your facts that you provide no documents for it. And you sound so sure it sounds like you were actually there. I provide documents independent peer review research on my arguments. how about your provide some for yours as well.

and no one is saying a fire took down a steel building. we are saying fire took down a structurally compromised building. and If a peer reviewed engineering paper does not do it for you, what kind of investigation into it are you looking for?

And honestly why would they want to knock down building 7 anyways? why not all the other buildings around WTC 1 and 2?

http://twitter.com/erectile_disfun erectile_disfunction

i have read into the facts and beliefs of this tragedy for many years now.
although i wasn't there when this happened, seeing the towers fall on television the day it happened i was immediately sceptical, it wasn't disbelief as many others have felt, it just seemed something was fishy.
im no scientist but i am capable of critical thinking and my conclusions lead to controlled demolition of all these buildings.

I'm not convinced enough as to who, and im not going to spend years giving life to those fabricating wild stories on the net (although some are rather convincing), but there is an urgent need for an unbiased approach to reinvestigate the causes so that we can get to bottom of this and the correct people can be held accountable.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Yeah but how do you define unbiased. The truthers dismiss anything that does not support their theories as biased. They are dismissing entire research just because they don't like the outcome. I would understand a paper in an independent peer reviewed engineer journal is pretty unbiased. What would you like as unbiased?

If you really want to get to the bottom of this thing and stop chasing crazy stories around in cyberspace, then watch this doc. The history and culture of the middle east is far more complex then the average American citizen understands, which explains why our policies have been such a disaster over there.

Watching this doc will help improve that.

Fugarzi

not true buddy

Fugarzi

it was an inside job all the way yes the cia made bin laden what he is They also still control the network and use it for there own purpose the USA has been taken over already BUT TO MANY ARE ASLEEP TO REALLY SEE IT AKA BRAINWASHED. all you think you know and was told and learned IS A LIE stop watching the controled media wake the hell up

Fugarzi

OMG this documentary is by al jazeer ,, << CIA owned

Fugarzi

cutting thought the matrix dot com << one word ok peeps

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

"Al Jazeer" is CIA owned? what a joke. That must be why the US hated them so much we attack one of their news agency and killed their journalist. That is why during the invasion of Iraq, we accused them of spreading enemy propaganda. The US government have done everything they can to discredit this news agency.

Also this doc shows so much footage of US troops doing horrible things in Iraq. more then any other news outlet in US, explain to me why the CIA want to put those things in there.

Reality check man, Can we just watch the doc, critically examine the information and stop being crazy.

http://www.facebook.com/mort.raws Mort Raws

The first truthers were not watching what happened and said
'hey, let's look if we can find something that defies physical laws, or at least looks strange, and then make a conspiracy theory out of it'.
They were all kinds of ordinary people, among them scientists, pilots, engineers, who looked at the footage and noticed unusual things. Once they looked into it, the evidence piled up more and more.
The truth movement didn't become so big because all the evidence of the theory (and I use the word theory in the scientific sense here) can be easily refuted - but because it's based on facts.
Otherwise this movement wouldn't have tens of millions of members, but would have disappeared or at least only have an insignificant number of hard core followers, just like the Nazi Moon Base theory.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

The problem here is although you say you are using theory in the scientific sense, you are not. In fact you are using theory in exactly not the scientific sense. Theory in scientific sense is a over riding principle backed used to explain multiple observations. Gravity is a theory because it have match all observable evidence, and explains the movements of the planets as well as observations on earth.

The best thing I have seen from the truthers "theories" are guesses and speculation, just like the moon base is a theory, it well never raise to the status of the scientific theory, even if it was proven true. This is a classic misunderstanding of what is a scientific theory.

Furthermore, if you want to make a evidence based argument, bring on the evidence. That is what science is. Where is the truther scientists trying to figure out how much thurmite it would take to bring down a building. I have papers to back up my side, where is the research for your side.

and the fact that you decided to make a argument from popularity shows you really don't understand what science is. I have heard that argument from religion (oh we are the most popular religion, we can't all be wrong). Yeah you can all be wrong. We have all been wrong many times in history, and unless you provide some evidence, you are all wrong once again.

http://www.facebook.com/glen.hale2 Glen Hale

The next war will be America attacking USA citizens.

Gareth Hayes

Yeung Xiao, exactly, just exactly. Too many people have no idea what the word "theory" actually means in a scientific context and never even bothered to look it up in a dictionary.

Gareth Hayes

Dammit we need more people like you and less people like Fugarzi in this world.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

Thank you Gareth. Just doing what I can. and the funny thing is their lack of understanding of science does not stop them from trying to claim it's legitimacy. and the fact that he specifically invokes scientific theory just makes me laugh and cringe. US have to do a better job at teaching the philosophy of science, not just the results of science.

anyways please watch the doc. I am more worried about the understand of middle east in the west. Watching people beating the war drum towards Iran scares the crap out of me. I went into Iraq without understanding that there is a deep division between two Muslim factions, which lead to civil war in the streets. We need the public to understand the complexity of the situation in the region, so politician can't get away with crazy talk.

http://www.facebook.com/mort.raws Mort Raws

You are correct about the argument from popularity. I apologize for using such an unscientific, inappropriate, and polemic instrument.
However, I actually know pretty well what 'theory' means in a scientific sense. It is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning. But of course a theory must also provide an alternative explanation, which is not the case here.
And I also know quite well that the truth movement is not based on a real theory, but 'only' on facts, which clearly show that the official explanation cannot be true, and in fact is the real conspiracy theory here.
Until someone can come up with an explanation that takes all these facts into consideration nobody can make up a real theory though.
That is, however, not the point of the truth movement. The point is to find the truth. The mere attempt of the American government to try and make us believe that 19 guys with box cutters did it all is an insult for everyone with even only a basic scientific education.
Regarding the evidence, I don't think that I have to show you all of it here personally. There are enough documentaries out there, some made by people with a much better education and way more experience than I have, and they show in a pretty convincing manner why the official version must be false.
Personally I think that Dr. Judy Wood made a quite interesting approach on the topic. "Where did the towers go?" is the title of her book, and I strongly recommend to read it. There are for sure some videos about it online as well.
PS: The example of religion is actually a pretty good one. As with the religious claim that there is a God, the burden of proof lies on those who make a positive claim. A scientist just asks 'where is the evidence?', and as long as there is none, the existence of a God is unlikely, to say the least.
In the case of 9/11 it would be the American government who makes the claim, i.e. stating the official version. The truth movement just asks the scientific question, since all the explanations from the official side can easily be refuted scientifically, and are demonstrably wrong.

http://www.facebook.com/mort.raws Mort Raws

If I wouldn't be as tolerant as I am - and if I really would care - I might have taken offense that you throw me in one pot with Fugarzi. ;)

http://www.facebook.com/mort.raws Mort Raws

Could be true - if only it would work like that.
A 'natural' collapse in 8.2 seconds - pretty much free fall speed - would require the whole structure below the top levels to just lose the resistance of all the material in order to make way for the upper levels.
If the bottom levels were destroyed first, the levels above, which are not destroyed at that point, would act as if the building would be just a level smaller, and slow down the collapse to 'normal' speed as soon as they hit the ground. That's basic physics. Any object can only drop with free fall speed when there is no resistance to its fall.
Furthermore, 'natural' collapses don't make buildings fall into their 'footprints'. There is always a side or edge which resists longer than the other parts of the building, thus making the building 'tipping over' to one side. This is btw one of the major points when it comes to WTC 1 and 2 as well.

And just to add that, 'most of it is just people with no expertise in the field' is no valid scientific argument. It needs only ONE person, using the scientific method, with ONE proof, to disprove the official account.

"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual."
? Galileo Galilei

It is, however, not only a single individual, but HUNDREDS of scientists, architects, engineers, scholars, pilots, military officials (retired and active), CIA and FBI employees, as well as many family members of the victims (may they rest in peace), who all disagree on the official version, and demand a new investigation of 9/11.

Regarding your argument with the 19 guys, it doesn't matter how sophisticated it would be, if it's impossible... it didn't happen.

PS: Did you actually watch or read 'Where did the towers go?' yet? There you have my favorite alternative theory.

PPS: I wouldn't be surprised if someone reading your comments might get the suspicion that you are one of the many disinfo agents on the web...

http://www.facebook.com/mort.raws Mort Raws

'Free Fall Fallacy'? I recommend to watch the live footage and measure yourself. There is no 'fallacy', and nothing 'hiding the slower fall inside'. In fact, some of the outer structures stood longer than the rest of the building, only to turn into dust in mid air.

You should still watch or read Judy Wood's 'Where did the towers go?', because that is nothing you ever saw in any of the typical 'truther' docs. It's a completely new approach to explain the inconsistencies.

I notice that you don't address one of the most important questions here:
Qui bono? Who benefits?

Please explain how all the concrete turned into dust, also how all the steel frames and girders could be broken into pieces small enough to be carried away with trucks, and almost nothing of the interior was found.
Wait... please don't.

I rather don't continue this conversation, because it's clear that you will always write another seemingly scientific answer, which still does not explain anything, but instead is only designed to 'debunk' the points made in 'truther' documentaries, and defend the official story.

Just like a disinfo agent you want your comment to be last.

This is getting us nowhere. Have a nice day.

http://www.facebook.com/mort.raws Mort Raws

'Free Fall Fallacy'? I recommend to watch the live feature again and measure yourself. There is no 'fallacy'. The 8.2 seconds I mentioned are taken from the paper that you recommended me to read. Either you say it wasn't (almost) free fall speed, or you say it collapsed in 8.2 seconds. You can't use both whenever you feel like it.

Also there was nothing 'hiding the slower fall inside'. In fact, some of the steel frames and girders stood longer than the rest of the building, only to fall later and turn into dust in mid air.

So you watched a whopping 4 hours of documentaries? I watched at least 1 week worth of them, and another week of 'anti-truther' documentaries, and none of the 'debunkers' could satisfy the need for answers. There are still dozens if not hundreds of questions to be answered.

Also Dr. Judy Wood's approach is like nothing you saw in any typical 'truther' documentary yet. You should watch it before you judge it.

For example, how did all the concrete turn into dust, and how did the vast majority of the steel girders break into pieces so small that they could be carried away in trucks without even cutting them? No fire can do that, and the impact of the planes has nothing to do with it either. How could some of the other WTC buildings literally disappear, with no traces left of them ever existing? How did cars and buses burn only partially with clear borders between burnt and unharmed areas? How did cars get burned on a bridge a few miles away? How could they flip over even though they were far away from the WTC complex? How did people get carried over long distances as if they were taken by a tornado?

I'm not even touching the topic of the official 'conspiracy theory' here, namely the many inconsistencies when it comes to Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, and who else was allegedly involved in that horrible act of terror.

And one of the most important questions you are obviously dodging all the time: Qui bono? Who benefits?

If you have an explanation that covers all the unusual evidence and effects on 9/11, please let me know. But don't tell me it was 19 guys with box cutters and some plane impacts and jet fuel! If you can't come up with anything better, please let's stop this conversation. It will lead us nowhere.

But to be honest, I will end this convo anyway. You won't stop defending the official version, no matter how little sense it makes, and always make a smart comment so that it appears last on this page. Just like a disinfo agent...

Have a nice day.

yeungx

what is this with you people, what ever happened to civil conversation between two people who do not agree? I have an open mind in this situation. we are all adults here, so don't get all pissy on me. I might disagree with you, but that is a chance for you to enlighten me. Don't get pissy on me cause I present one rebuttal. how about a little basic maturity and civility here. If you want to end the convo, fine, but don't blame it on me for asking you to provide sources and evidence. You can go back into your little bubble if you want, or you can come and have a civil conversation with me.

Also, Citation would be nice, you are asserting a lot of things here that you need to provide evidence for so i can evaluate it. Sometimes in one paragraph, you provide 5-6 assertions with nothing to back it up.

Just on the question of concrete---Did all the concrete turn to dust? do you have evidence of that and from where? how does that support your argument that it was controlled thermite demolition? The thing with science is that it is argued one step at a time.

And some of the thing you claimed, if it was true would disprove truther theory as well? With that car and the people carried for long distance and car flipping over, you are trying to show there was an explosion, but a thermite detonation is a burn and not an explosion. so it would invalidate truther theory right a way.

In order for me to even begin to answer how it happened, please show that it did happen, if people were carried by wind, who and how far. if cars were flipped over, how far were they from the tower. Numbers and citations please. this is not too much to ask. I have cited papers, I have cited video footage, and documentary on this site, anything is good.

And I am not dodging any question, watch the doc to see why Bin Laden would want to attack America. This is not the first time this organization attack or was it the last. Was the US government involved in all of them? There is a deep cultural and historical roots to his madness that need to be understood and put in proper context. That is why I want people to watch this doc. it explores a large population of the world that most westerners simply have no understanding of. It is this understand that will move us forward in our global discussion.

spreadthetruth_peacenlove

what is your question Sir.

spreadthetruth_peacenlove

Al Qaeda Doesn't Exist if you would do some research please.

1 WORD: Brainwashed

yeungx

You know this doc, the 9/11 decade, actually interviews this guy right and largely agrees with what he says about the mentality within the CIA. And I am not defending the US actions around the world, and I, and this documentary, agree with most things he says. The documentary is highly critical of US policy around the world and traces the historical perspective far better anything else out there. This is why I want people to watch the doc.

Michael Scheuer does not suggest US carried out 9/11, so I am not sure what you are getting at for citing this interview. This documentary is a longer more detailed account of this exact interview. so go and watch it and learn something.

I am only saying the CIA did not plan and carry out 9/11. That planes did bring down WTC 1 and 2, It was not a control demolition. there was no thermite or nano-thermite used. None of those thing contradicts anything Mr. Scheuer says.

I just want people to watch this doc and get a clue about what the actual middle east thinks about 9/11 and the Us in general.

how about trying to understand my argument before make assumptions about what I am arguing.

yeungx

Here is research, I am taking a university course on the modern middle east, here is what the text book as to say about Al Qaeda.

"Instead of comparing Al-Qaeda to Hamas or Hizbullah, then, it might be more fruitful to examine the resemblance between Al-Qaeda and various anarchist groups that have come and gone in the West" (Gelvin, 2011, pg 7). The book then goes on an analyze the group as decentralized, not fighting for a national interest, and fighting what the see as the face of oppression.

How is that for research. Is a Arab professor in a Canadian university in on the conspiracy as well, or do you think you did more research then him.

so now the question is, what is your question?

Can we just watch this amazing doc and be enlightened, and then talk about stuff.

http://www.facebook.com/mort.raws Mort Raws

It is NOT my argument that thermite did it - obviously you still didn't watch the recommended video. I never said explosions flipped and burnt these cars. Watch or read 'Where did the towers go?' I'm not sure how often I mentioned this...

That I do not go with the usual 'truther' theory about how the towers fell doesn't mean that I wouldn't agree with the obvious - which is that the official account can't be true.

About Bin Laden and al-Qaeda I recommend the documentary 'Fabled Enemies'. There is a reason why Bin Laden has never been claimed to be responsible for the events on 9/11 by the FBI.

Regarding your remark I wouldn't provide nothing to back up my claims - if you have watched more than 4 hours of documentaries - which were most likely not the best ones - you might know about all these things already.

There are several pretty good pages on which you can make a picture yourself, made by people who know their fields much better than I (or you) do, for example
pilotsfor911truth.org
scientistsfor911truth.org
ae911truth.org (architects and engineers)
and many more.

Documentaries I would recommend:
911 In Plane Site
911 False Flag
Fabled Enemies
Where did the towers go?
Zero: An Investigation into 9/11

It is impossible for me to list all the sources and citations within the limited scope of this page, so I strongly recommend to visit these sites and research yourself.

yeungx

I am sorry I miss understood you, just assumed you were a typical truther, but you are an agnostic truther who makes no claim about what actually happen on 9/11, is that right? do i understand you properly?

And I am not asking for all the citation, I am asking for your most compelling argument. I am not going to watch everything cited here, cause you know I have stuff to do. But I will make time for your most compelling argument about the mistake within the official account. If this argument is compelling, I will investigate further.

For example, the pilot for 911 truth website claimed that NORAD should have shot the planes out of the sky, which is just absurd. NORAD is setup to stop nuclear missiles coming from Russia during the cold war. most of the Norad radar dishes are in Arctic Canada. Internal air traffic was never apart of there mandate. so you might not want to start with that web site.

I am just worried that if I just go through all the stuff, the good point will be missed among all the junk out there. One good argument, with citation. please. if it is a documentary, the time stamp where that argument is discussed. I have done this for you on my arguments, extend the same consideration, please.

slpsa

the problem you face is trying to convince intelligent educated, experienced people, that we have no brains and our eyes cannot see what is in front of them. You also face the problem of trying to win over people who have intimate knowledge of metal stresses, engineering concepts and fire investigation. I can no more ignore the video and physical evidence in front of my eyeballs than I can ignore my own brain talking to me. I can wish it all away, but when you know what you know, it is physically impossible to ignore inner knowledge and truth. You can argue all day, until every second Sunday, your musings and guess work, links, statements and arguments, quips quirks, deflections and directives, they cannot and will never change people like me, into an official story believer. Until we have a real life MIB neuralyzer, it will not happen. I sleep well at night knowing noone can compromise my knowledge and experience. I have no problem looking my self in the mirror when I speak my beliefs on 9/11. You cannot erase base technical knowledge from everyone in the West. Just most of them never had it to begin with, thus making the official fantasy story so easy to put over on people. This has always been a problem for those who are really responsible for 9/11. Shutting guys like me up. What I think of myself as is a " I know too much to shut me up guy " There is no debate to be had. 9/11 was a setup, who, and why and when is a different story though. One thing is glaringly obvious, and to any person with any experience in buildings, metal or fire, the laws of gravity and the base laws of engineering cannot be changed for one day, no matter who is saying they were. Once you get past that obvious detail, we may have common ground. Until that point, it is all the same BS i have listened to since Sept 11th 2001. People and armchair experts talking out their arses and blowing ass bubbles over and over again about things in which they have 0 experience or understanding of. Even after all the debates, and BS, when I read posts like yours, I cannot shut up and probably never will. Unless you are a certified Civil Engineer with multi- purpose training and certifications, you pretty well know jack. Mort said it best. There are people out here, like myself, who have a warehouse full of knowledge and experience to call it what it is. Anyone else is just talking BS and is afraid to admit they are wrong. They may even be afraid to admit the boogey man resides in their own Country, not some far off one. The Resource Extraction mafia is not afraid of you people and are not afraid to go the extra mile to achieve their goals. That much we know. Someday, I hope that the actual people of the planet prove them wrong. They know we can be divided and conquered. Hell they have known it for 12 years now. Mission accomplished, we are still arguing amongst us. Aren't we.

Gary McCurry

This was a waste of time and full of lies

MyReligionIs2DoGood

To the point. Couldn't have said it better.
Thank you.

Mort Raws

slpsa

By the way, the doc 9/11 explosive evidence: experts speak out, are my co-employed and knowledgeable brethren. I watched that doc and came to the same exact conclusions that all of them have. In my gut, I knew anyways, Newtons Law does not pick and choose, like many of the empty headed armchair experts do. Those buildings fell in classic demolition style. Denying that makes anyone look rather stupid to be honest. Anyone who is an engineer of nay kind, knows what that was. The truth sucks, and no matter how hard some try, you cannot erase, demean or change the laws that govern gravity and metal strength. It was a demolition. Not only was it a demo, it was artwork to me and many others. No buildings those sizes have ever been dropped so neatly, ever, not before nor after. Building 7 was awesome. That was near perfection. A 60 meter or so damage radius. Outstanding work. For real. They did not do so well on the two towers though, they had too much explosive power, it jettisoned some 1 and 2 ton beams more than 500 feet out on a sideways trajectory, not straight down, as a collapse that was not caused by explosives would do. The people setting those charges are the best on the planet, bar none. The models provided by the so called experts fail miserably, for those of us who understand those graphs, numbers and charts, never mind the video evidence. Most parts of that doc are spot on and tell the truth of science, not the truth of liars, fearful card carrying uninformed Repubs or Democrats or spineless lying politicians. The biggest laugh I had was the popular mechanics debunk. That was amateurish, obviously scripted lines of pure bunk, fed to the unsuspecting public who do not understand physics or metal stresses. We know that it is physically impossible for those buildings to fall the way they said they did. Pure unadulterated BS. If you want to believe the official story, you can be my guest, after all, ignorance is bliss and the low road usually safer.

slpsa

All this being said, I was weary then, I am once again, weary now, of entertaining fools and their blithering on and on about this subject. Someone pulled one over on all of us, they got away with it, it is over, nothing will be done, I moved on many, many years ago, past this subject and its endless debate. Once in a while, I have my input, my release of frustration at the feeling of being lied to and being powerless to act. I compare the feeling to being in a bad marriage to be honest. You are screwed if you do, and screwed if you don't, I am sure you people understand that feeling too. There is nothing anyone can do about it, it changes nothing. This knowledge many people have. Nothing at all. The world moves on, history repeats itself, always. I put it back on the shelf and forget it for a while, until some troll or no mind gets me past the fuck it point. You know that feeling all too well, all humans do man.

slpsa

I do not even know where to begin today's lesson with your description of NORAD being so narrow in scope. You sir, are grossly misinformed, about the role of NORAD over North American skies. In fact, North Bay, Ontario, Canada hosts the sister site to Colorado Springs, Colorado. In fact, since you are studious, look up CFB North Bay and go from there. Your education awaits you. I will give a tidbit though. They have scrambled, literally thousands of aircraft to intercept any deviation or intrusion of any given flight path that diverted from its assigned corridor. Thousands, since the cold war, big number eh? Get it right before opening gate my studious padawan. Seriously, you question the science of 9/11 and debate with experts on these subjects, right here on this forum, but cannot get the role of what our most important air assets are and what their mission directives are? Surely you jest or wear the badge of a government official to be this misinformed about the science, never mind publicly available mission statements listed on NORAD's site. Surely sir, you jest......

tmckibbin

A very compelling journalistic investigation by Christopher Bollyn, now in book form - Solving 9/11: The Deception That Changed the World

http://profile.yahoo.com/I6EXZPVY22LOHW6EELWTWSHOHM Rick

I agree 100% with everything you said. Its the first time ive seen someone that is part of the same community as the men who make the A&E docs just let loose with out holding back or trying to be pc about basic truths that cant be suspended for a day.I firmly believe that anyone that supports the official story with all the evidence out there that proves it couldnt have happened that way is either a paid shill or an absolute idiot.Getting to the truth does seem helpless. But exposing the truth about 911 to the majority of american people is absolutely the most important thing in our life.Since 911 was used to destroy the constitution and pass multiple laws taking away our liberty so the elite criminals can bring in the NWO, exposing what they did and are doing with massive news coverage is the only thing that will wake up enough people to stop the Madness.Of course thats a wet dream since they own any and everything that could possibly bring them to justice.

ihnfn

lol, most of you guys in here are elevating bull**** to an artform..is yeung the only one with a brain in here? here's something simple for you numbnuts truthers to think about (if you are capable of doing so): the fact that people who know the 'truth' are alive, is proof that the 'truth' is bullshit! ..thx for the doc btw

http://www.facebook.com/cchristiankg Christian Klinckwort Guerrero

I quote, "Justice will be done" G. W. Bush, I will see you hanging like strange friute. America will make shure you die hanged

Fredrik Norlin

This is a piece of ****. However, it's a brilliant example of what money can do.

Amina Mbengue

Such a sad day but a new day for America to act upon.

Lastviewer

Prime message in this DOC: Why did the US admins turned toward to Iraq in such a sudden? The DOC dates bck to a time B-4 we knew (For a fact) that the UK & US medias were biaised and corrupted to the bone. (& the "Skull as well). And obviously, no-1 knows what really happened on 911, really.
But I had sort of a vague hint. "Business" as usual.
Consequence: Don't even set a foot on US territory.
Stay aloof.

AddNewComment1

Most of these documentaries look as though they were made by high school kids that just shared the same footage... why would anyone watch these when they all have the same "evidence"? just because it's in a documentary (and I use that word lightly) does not make it fact or even believable.

Peggyspade

Why dont you make a better one then. As you stated they look as though were made by high school kids. Show us how much better you are then.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Paul-Lozba/100000642071283 Paul Lozba

I can bet that Yeung Xiao is a government dis-info agent, payed to brainwash with imaginary science all the people from this website and god knows how many others. So disrespectful to all the people who died there. 9/11 is nothing less than a Zionist false flag attack to empower the ruling elite fulfill their evil plans to take over this planet.

emp12345

propaganda trash

conford

Pure and typical propaganda, all of them f***ing liars, you can see it in their eyes.

PJ1001

I totally agree with some of the other commnents regarding the lies. Incredible that Aljezera news would publish this garbage and the fact that you are not allowed to make a comment on Youtube says it all.

joey77

The fact is NORAD failed America on that day. The entire east coast was protected by a couple of jets. One in Canada and one in Mass. The wargames made the country weeker not stronger. The CIA and FBI also failed, but this couldn't happen without inside knowledge. WTC7 crumbled into dust when no plane hit it. I will always have questions about 9/11.

joey77

How is the CIA going to go after Al-CIA-duh. LOL

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

@pual Lozba
Wow, i go away from this site for a couple of month and come back to this. This is the third time some one accuse me of this, and got 5 likes. I am rather saddened.

I am a Chinese Canadian Marxist. I understand the evil of capitalism more then you, in fact I make my living writing about it. I embrace the demise of capitalism, when you don't even know what that means. So it is just funny.

This is a great documentary about the impact of 9/11 on our last decade. and it's not even Americans that made the doc. Just take some time, and watch the thing, it goes so much deeper then what happens at 9/11.

Yeung Xiao

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

oh god, I leave the beautiful doc for couple of month and it's taken over by retards...
People this is one of the greatest most insightful doc about the impact of 9/11 on the geopolitical landscape. It does not even talk about the conspiracy theories.
watch and enjoy.

Also, to the mods, can we move this out of 9/11 section and into politics, I just want more people to see this doc, and it feels like it is drawing the wrong crowd.

tostrivetoseek

A lot of people are getting rich off this war. Therefore, a lot of people don't really want it to end.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

yeah i can agree with that.

http://www.facebook.com/marty.mcgorty Marty McGorty

Shouldn't you, as a chinese person, understand the evils of Marxism better than most?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

I understand the evils of dictatorship. but anyone who looks at the application of Marxism in China or Russia could see that if Marx saw what happened in China and Russia, his would be rolling in this grave. Both Mao, and Stalin used marxist terminology to justify their individual power grabs.

In all honestly, Marx himself did not present a detailed road map for how society should be ran, his primary achievement is a very detailed examination on the nature of capital, and the implication of the capitalist system. Some of the key idea being exchange value, fetishization, surplus value, all that good stuff. In fact one of the worst thing Stalin and Mao have done is de-legitimized a very valid critique to the nature of capitalist system, this allowing the hegemony of free market ideology.

Marx ideas have been further developed by many other thinkers, Gramsci, (his theory of Hegemony), and Adorno (Cultural industry), among many others. All in all, it Marxist theory as it stand today, provides a powerful and accurate description of a part of how the world functions today.

Is it completely accurate, no, but it is a very good reference point.

batvette

"Prime message in this DOC: Why did the US admins turned toward to Iraq in such a sudden?"
Because unless you are completely clueless you know it was our policies containing Iraq over the previous decade that caused 9/11.

Nothing_Is_Real

We know now that Osama Bin Ladin had nothing to do with 911. Even the FBI said it could not charge him with that because of lack of evidence. With thatsaid, this doc. is nothing but proof that power will kill anyone that stands in its way. The reason more muslims were killed by al-Qaeda than so called enemies is that al-Qaeda was created by the CIA. The Federal Reserve, IMF, Military Industrial Complex and other USA components are responsible for all wars in the name of MONEY and POWER

Nothing_Is_Real

I see your comments everywhere and you bounce from pro to con of the same topic. You are part of the propaganda for profit.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

now it's clear that you did not watch the doc. Cause the Doc gave a very detailed explanation on the nature of Al-Qaeda. This includes a long history as well as specific people and names. You are just horribly miss informed.
As I have cited before, here it is from the text book on my university course in the modern middle east.

"Instead of comparing Al-Qaeda to Hamas or Hizbullah, then, it might be more fruitful to examine the resemblance between Al-Qaeda and various anarchist groups that have come and gone in the West" (Gelvin, 2011, pg 7). The book then goes on an analyze the group as decentralized, not fighting for a national interest, and fighting what the see as the face of oppression.

How is that for research. Is a Arab professor in a Canadian university in on the conspiracy as well, or do you think you did more research then him.

Ironically, although you think you uncovered some complicated conspiracy, your view of the world is actually very simplified. It frame all of world events within a western context and point of view. The world as actually much more complicated, with a lot more actors, perspectives and ideologies. Just watch the damn doc, you might learn something. I promise you, you will not hate the US any less, just more reasonably.

Andrew Wedge

My mind is spinning from reading all these comments, not because reading is difficult for me but because conflict without cooperation...besides being difficult for me to bear witness to, is always a masquerade concerned more with appearance or impression than with transcendence or progression. I dont have any evidence to back this claim, however if anyone truly wish to argue - then shouldnt object to private argument with someone of average or puny IQ. In the event that we break ground, make discoveries, learn, grow, or change as a result then lets publicize our argument...since that would be helpful to others AND our egos would be so proud of us! I am passionate about 9/11 and have been since 2003 when I realized the impact went beyond the attack and the lives lost that day. I hesitate to take a side, because it draws a line between us and there is no line between us except the one we imagine. Do we not all hunger and thirst for the truth? If one believes he has the truth, why would he be angry at another for having a different perspective? Just offer your brother the truth he seeks in the most clever way you can think up! And if your brother is not persuaded from his perceptions, perhaps you should question what you think you know- after all, this is what you are asking him to do.
Now I havent watched the documentary yet, but I am about to. I have watched almost all available on the topic, some i have reviewed extensively. One said we will never know what happened, another said he wants to argue. Several have stated that they were weary of the supposed gridlock of available viewpoints-and i am paraphrasing completely, but it is getting stale and automatic, is it not? On both "sides"?
I have a question. I do not need an answer. I like questions alot. I thought about keeping it for myself so you would go get your own question, but I want to share it. Its not new, but new answers do call for new questions. Did the secret service perceive a threat to the president as the attacks were witnessed on the morning of 9/11?
Now before we get all conspiracy cheery, I will leave you with something a friend, a man among mice, and a truly unique individual left me with, forever changing my mind about some things I thought I knew, but did not.
We are accustomed to a certain lifestyle of comfort and convenience that we have a completely unwarranted sense of entitlement in regard to. We take for granted every gift we receive. We are more concerned with looking good than with learning, with being right than with being happy. We are m*rons. We do not have what is needed to protect and ensure this lifestyle that we dont even deserve, yet we second guess those in charge every step of the way. So what if your freedom, enjoyment, luxury, convenience, and or comfort were somehow made possible by the events in question? Yes its a ridiculous oversimplified hypothetical question, but can you answer it? I for one would like to say thank you to those who protect and defend us and our freedoms. If it turns out they are wasting us by the thousands and rounding us up and killing us, well why would we deserve anything else? We are a bunch of narcissistic know-it-all self-absorbed cry-babies who do not appreciate what we have.

DaveT383

All I can say is that whenever I have ever seen clips of George Bush, I feel revolted. He is such an ignorant slimy posturing yob. Same goes for Rumsfeld, except that he is smarter than Dubya, which makes him more competently evil.

batvette

I don't care for several reasons:

1. You can't be bothered to attack my stated talking points and only attack my person. On a level of debate skills or contribution toward progressive discourse, you're worthless.

2. You're a conspiracy theorist. You weren't convinced by reason but by lies, and thus cannot be reasoned with.

3. You state as fact I am part of the "propaganda for profit" with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, proving that your own silly beliefs are as good as factual evidence in condemning the accused. No better than a witch hunter.

Have a nutty day.

batvette

If you're basing your beliefs about the towers' collapse on "jet fuel isn't hot enough" you're just wrong.
Was this just a jet fuel fire? What was the role of the fuel in this event?
If fires from THE CONTENTS OF AN OFFICE BUILDING- you know, those things you have omitted such as:

CARPETS

DRAPES

UPHOLSTERY AND FOAM IN SEATING

FILE CABINETS STUFFED WITH PAPER

PARTICLE BOARD IN DESKS AND CUBICLES

COMPUTERS AND BATTERY BANKS OF U.P.S.

Did not get hot enough to compromise the steel components, why then does code require fireproofing?
Fireproofing which no one disputes was removed by the plane's impacts?

If you are a reasonable person whose position was influenced by facts, you will recognize that the foundation of your position as you stated was entirely wrong. The temperature jet fuel burns at isn't part of the equation. Thus your position was based upon fallacy.

If your position was arrived at by ideology, change the subject at will to another erroneous talking point and hope no one noticed. It's expected.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

LOL Judy Wood is that woman that believes in space lasers taking the towers down.

oh you people keep me laughing.

http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

The 911 interest is unveiling a lot of "hidden information".
Instead of standing still on one side of the issue or the other, one would do best to start exploring all the new info coming out...and rewatching some of the not so new such as Zero, lectures and documentary (Hypothesis) by Prof. Steven Jones and more....

New things are being said, proven, supported by peer reviews....

It is like in the Anza Boreggo desert, when you lift a rock you never know what you're gonna find.
1i

http://twitter.com/IAMPOPSLAG I AM POP SLAG.

Who are "we people" exactly? people with scientific query about a physical event that defied the known physics of current public understanding?
It being a unique event even if the physics of said event were conventional or otherwise.
If you have eyes you can see the structure turn to powder- poof- as if barry scott had done it.
her explanations are wild but with the right tuning and maths you can shake a whole building with just a weighted motor - tricky indeed but there is good evidence tesla achieved this.
God knows what effect a device that electro magnetically induce a similar resonant effect on an atomic level- the tritium spike is there in the data alright and the recent resurgence of LENR as a possibly viable technology-
And then you have steven jones involvement - a scientific crowd controller who steered the debate at MIT to dismiss the work of pons and fleischman and their evidence of induced nuclear reactions in a setup similar to an electrolytic reaction.
fact is the building was there 1 minute -puff of smoke the next -no pancakes either.
weird ...i have no idea how they do a magic trick at the theatre but i still dont believe you can fit ten rabbits in a single hat.
from a scientific point of view she asks all the right questions and doesnt try to defintively answer what she couldnt possibly know about.
Her ideas are not all that far fetched, although it would be possible by means other than she describes.
Its why its called science and her qualifications for such an article as the book she wrote on the subject are not really in question- It was presented correctly- not a scientific paper for peer review but as a collection of evidence and a little theorising around the subject matter- she does lead to some startling conclusions but they are the readers to make essentially.
besides she has approached the subject with little preformed bias and a big picture view of the subject and the ultimate question? which is
Is the evidence of an exotic resonant energy technology?.
And if so What the fuck do we do with it?
whereupon andrea rossi enters the equation with his "secret" military grade, tamper proof reverse engineer proof energy module...
laughing??? carry on.
nobody gives a f*ck anyway and i know or care about this stuff because sometimes i like to pretend im dr evil and work out ways to blow up the moon.
(Im not dr evil and would never do such a thing nor would i point it a two perfectly good ,very well constructed magnificent skyscrapers in a city full of people.
Im not claiming to know anything because that would be really effing s*upid now wouldnt it? and besides im certainly not qualified to postulate exotic physics theories although i study the subject as a keen amateur and have read some rather high end works on the subject.
The real laugh is when you see Steven Jones "physicist" in 1989 actually voting against a scientific idea- (thats not how actual science works btw) which Incidentally closely linked to similar theories or LENR that would be required to explain such a device as a directed energy weapon of a type hitherto unseen- using a low rent physicist with an unrelated background to sell "nanothermite" as a complete theory and viable strawman because of the logisitics and time that would have been involved to rig the job.
All judy wood has d

http://twitter.com/IAMPOPSLAG I AM POP SLAG.

one is point out what we dont know- what actually happened and asked how the f*ck could it have hap[pened and is as surprised by the answer even with her professional credentials as im sure you are too. because you eyes dont usuually tell you lies (unless someones whispering in your ear telling you what you are seeing that is This technology is our future no matter how it comes to light but it seems like you might need the involvment of massive weather systems and the earths natural field to release such energy potential... and if so the system that may have been used on 911 might not be the way to at all as although not a "space laser" such a weapon is equally terrifying in its implication? earthquakes anyone?
as i say its all just theory postulation but its very interesting and seems to amuse your dedicated trolling of the subject.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

you didnt type out a single coherent sentence in that word salad.

ELFISDODGE

I have every belief in what you say apart from one thing, if and it is a big if, the fundermenstration of the said notion of the equivical to envelope the situation ,then yes I do agree ,but and again this is a humungous but, erm I forgot what I was going to say.Thererfore as one would say in the business. I bid you a good day.Since my mother Stan would say "" such is much "" But don't quote me on that .
Ooh ! Tablet time! Must dash . Byeeee

http://twitter.com/IAMPOPSLAG I AM POP SLAG.

sorry elf- i thought i had edited it -must not have saved.
its funny as usuually if i post illucid unedited posts noone takes any notice- i do it a lot and come back and edit later just to get ideas and points down
but the moment you do it about 911 you are suddenly crazy?
well i thought i edited it but ti wont let me...strange that...

http://twitter.com/IAMPOPSLAG I AM POP SLAG.

they always shut up once you mention judy wood or call "space lasers" and start recommending tin foil hats.
her questions stand...

ELFISDODGE

Ha no need for apologies. It was a giggle. Have a good life mate? Ma'am ?

Jane Doe

wow. you are so arrogant.

Roy J Rowley

I need to ask a guestion.
The is guestion is who is america’s true enemy ? Is it foreign government or our own government ? Because the way way things are going ,our government is taking away
our freedom and rights we send our children to fight and die without understanding what exachy they are fighting for at times.I wonder why are they fighting ?Why are they dying ?At times I can’t even do things in my own home without having a permit.I can’t get any help from my own government when I need it Instend they insist on giving me problems.
and when I see things happen ,I can’t understand who is the enemy.I saw something on television about Mr bush when 9/11 happen what he did made me mad and made me
believe that he was the enemy and that was the cause of 9/11.
So I would like for someone to explain to what is going on and why.aAnd who is the ENEMY?
I'm sorry for spelling I'm not very good at this I did my best thanks for your time.

Alv V

"what is going on and why?" - The invasion against Iraq happened because there's oil there and it's 10 times easier/cheaper/faster to extract then the tar sands in Canada, and it's so valuable that no matter what the cost is, it is worth it. Without the energy the West would become just like the developing countries that is not developing at all, because those in power need all the energy to continue to develop themselves. "who is the ENEMY?" - Humans. It's easy to point the finger at the rich and the governments that create all the evil in the world, but what about all their rich citizens that may talk, but surely don't act on it, as long as there is any benefit such as food and fuel, electricity and the endless variety of goods being produced to satisfy every demand? I'm certain that the words would turn into action if the rich and powerful few would do good things, meaning that their citizens would get less and other countries, even if it is their resources, would get more. If Americans and Europeans started to starve to death, without electricity, healthcare, sanitation, education or even clean water to drink, surely there would be riots, angry mobs filling the streets and dragging their leaders to the gallows. But things like that is guaranteed to happen, since the oil is running out. There will be more war, and more fighting as the resources are getting drained and emptied, but hopefully civilization will collapse before the planet does. That's really all that anyone can realistically hope for. The thought of humanity getting united and doing good things, preserving life for future generations, seem to be a daydream. And things like 911 is just symptoms of a illness that can only get worse.

roy

Thanks

Alv V

for your reply

If we, sorry the government tell the people that this country did this and lie about it, it's like it don't matter somebody is going to pay if not the government of that country it will be the people the oil company have power
and government back them up, 911 happnen and should not have happen people died to me Mr bush is the one that should pay for 911 to me he is the ENEMY we can not keep sending kid to die without letting know why and what they are dieing for freedom we can use that any more because w have that any more freedom cost to damn much
for them to say that is what they are dieing for let them kid no that the are dieing for oil.

Vinnie Chavez

To fine what your looking for why? and who is the enemy you need to get the book Tragedy and Hope by Corroll Quigley you be happy you did this book will tell you try it??

Vinnie Chavez

War is a Racket it is conducted for the benefit of the very few at expense of the masses the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.!

Rocky Racoon

Speak for yourself. Most people deserve a lot more than they have and those that have deserve jail sentences in most cases. Our political economy is corrupt to the core and 9/11 is the cherry on top of the cake that proves it. Just look at the money being made off of this event by these supposed servants half of the Bush Whitehouse is now in the security game reaping in billions of dollars supplying mercenary armies for the banks that want those oil wells in their portfolio's and will ensure that the US military is at their beck and call dying in the desert sand while they sip Champaign and eat caviar on the balconies on Wall Street. A city where the Mayor donate millions to the police pension fund when people who have lost their life savings due to the maleficence of the very same banksters go out and legally exercise their right to free speech-now that money is considered speech we can see just how free it really is not. Enough already. Our standard of living is pitiful in the Western World and no don't tell me about undeveloped countries who have been raped and plundered for the past 500 years for the resources they have in the ground and tell me I benefit. The money spent on arms getting those resources is better spent on social projects and benefits like schools hospitals and early childhood education-Some benefit-the majority pay in every way every day.

Rocky Racoon

The temperature of office furniture including those items you mentioned also does not burn hot enough to bring down a building in fact no structure in the entire world has ever gone down due to fire like that and then their is building 7 that wasn't even hit by a plane--- the fallacy is being pervaded by you and not the poster that you directed your comment towards.

Rocky Racoon

As a former member of the academic proletariat I can tell you that university professor's tailor their work to please the status quo in the hope of career advancement, funding and other accolades. Al Qaeda are more accurately categorized as a proxy, mercenary army of the type trained by the CIA School of the America's to fight against the indigenous people in South America in order to procure their resources and clear them from their land. Groups like the Contras who were supplied with drug money run up here by the likes of Oliver North to overthrow the Sandinista government would be a representative cohort not ostensible anarchists a subjective revolutionary panache if there ever was one. Painting anarchists groups with the same brush as Al Qaeda must make the Harper government very happy indeed from whence did this ex-pat travail? And what forces did he serve in his former country? And how did he get into Canada?

Rocky Racoon

But much production was socialized and those relations of production should have been preserved hopefully they will be in China however with the emergent capitalist class I don't think so a counter revolution and the restoration of socialism in Russia would a good thing now that they have learned a thing or two about democracy but lets remember a totalitarian state is almost necessary when you have the capitalist behemoth plotting your demise and sabotaging your every move. But surely strong democracy could have overcome these things the point was to get rid of the parasitic bureaucracy as outlined by Trotsky...U know with two great depressions and two world wars and the standard of living in most capitalist countries around the world even with totalitarianism socialism delivered the goods for far more people than capitalism ever has. Gramsci make good points about hegemony and with todays concentration of media managing perceptions... Still I like the transitional program as praxis. We also have Spanish South America largely socialist a large number of Spanish people in North America who have experienced the heavy hand of imperialism and capitalism Many many countries in Europe at least the rank and file would go much further than any elected government in bringing about socialized production....Capitalism won't die on it's own that is for sure...it may self destruct and take everyone with it but a socialist society has to be organized it doesn't just happen. And the primitive accumulation of capital, slavery serfs driven from the land much like the peasant farmers in Mexico only they call it a drug war what a psychop that is. The native Americans got the same treatment here a few centuries ago...but people act like today's institutions came ready made fell right from the sky no sense of history whatsoever and what little history is taught it is more of a creation myth than a history. Good to see some young communists around I am darn near sixty and feel we are closer than ever to new October's here and around the globe. Every day that passes bring us another day closer to a more human social order based on equality fraternity and liberty for all..a classless society where human beings will be truly free to make their own history rather than suffer under the heavy hand of the market.
A better world is possible
Cheers,
RR