How on earth can America heal?

If this forum is any indication of the country at large I can't see any way that the US can come together as a nation to solve it's problems regardless of who wins!

The polarization is so severe. No matter who is President it seems it will be another divisive four years with nothing but angst. The gloating, on either side, will be offensive and combative.

The US has always been a model for national pride and unity to me...Is it gone for good? You know the entire world , including your enemies , see the internal strife. You may think one President or the other weakens your country, not so, it is how you deal with it as a nation that sends the message.

I'm afraid you're right, I agree this country is splintered like never before. What's the answer to bring back American pride and pride for ones self? I have some ideas but would never post them because then an all out war would break out and liberals would be fainting and catching a case of the vapors.

Having said this much I'm sure many will post and presume to read my mind. LOL

David, this is a little peripheral, but in a poll taken in Ireland, 94% of those polled wanted Obama to be president. That indicates to me that at least the international community knows which man will be the better leader. The people on the right on this forum I believe to be on the fringe, i.e. those motivated to express themselves very strongly, which sadly showcases their prejudices and lack of facts. In daily life do you really see this much strife between the two parties when living their daily lives? I certainly haven't. No one can keep up that level of hate and prejudice and still lead a normal life. I predict that President Obama will be elected for another term, the economy will continue to improve at it already has, slowly but steadily, and that as prosperity returns the Republicans will become much more quiet since there isn't going to be all that much for them to complain about. Pre-election time generates the greatest negative emotions so this is not a good time to judge anything. I truly believe that in this case reason will prevail, especially as almost every day Mr. Romney says or does something that holds him up to ridicule or makes people question who this man really is. People reveal themselves every time they speak, and as long as he keeps talking things are not going to go his way. When all this is over, the president will have ample time to make even more improvements to the economy and everyone's attention will be diverted from political agendas.

I'm responding to people insulting me and assigning stances and accusing me of "hating" our President when nothing could be more false.

I'm pointing out that you have insulted people here for no other reason that that they view US politics differently than you, and that many of your comments about other posters have contributed to the polarization of THIS country.

This is a good question that deserves a thoughtful answer. Demi: instead of immediately turning it into a schoolyard fight, why not contribute your thoughts on how we can move forward? Personally, I am beyond disgusted by how low all of the elections, whether president or local have sunk & the obscene amount of money that is spent. We need to demand better from people who run for office. I'd like to see candidates that tell us how they plan to move the country forward and stop with all the cheap shot crap that goes on. They could start by only referring to their opponent in a neutral or positive way. I get it that they differ, just tell me how you are going to contribute in a positive way.

Chase I love history. Things will change back to normal. We are a young country. When things change there is resistance uncertainty and then it becomes the norm.

We have had our first African American President. It is not the norm people are afraid. If you go through our history of racial strife after people see the sky did not fall and kill us all it becomes the norm.

It was unheard of that Negro could sit in the same restaurant, go to school together, use the same bathroom. The sky was going to fall. It stayed in the sky. Now it is the norm.

You do not see anyone here saying the world is going to blow up because Whites, Blacks, Asian, or any nationality is sitting in the same restaurant.

There are so many examples of the changes of America and once it becomes the norm there will be another fight. But in the end it works out and people move on to the next "THE SKY IS FALLING."

The next one will be Oh My a WOMAN PRESIDENT she had PMS and is going to kill us all. She is the worst President EVER. She has divided America if she just had not become President we would all be happy and not divided and on, and on, and on.....

The race thing is going to work itself out because America is rapidly becoming more diverse. There are more and more Interracial marriages, producing even more diversity.

It is just the next progression to acceptance of racial, gay, Health Care for all and sadly once again women's rights.

chase...I am agreeing with Demi on this one.
That's a hypocritical question coming from someone that has contributed to that polarization by insulting and denigrating those that disagree with President Obama.

You are usually always first in line and stirring the pot.

It still doesn't sit well with me for a person from another country to denigrate.

There was an old country song years ago by a guy named Merle Haggard titled, "Your Walking On The Fighting Side Of Me".

I don't know how to link but you can go to youtube and just listen to the words.
It doesn't matter one iota if its country to me.
I could have written the words because I see red when
people start griping about this country as a whole and running it down.

Especially foreigners
Just for those who forget what a foreigner is.
for�eign�er
noun
1. a person not native to or naturalized in the country or jurisdiction under consideration; alien.
2. a person from outside one's community.
3. a thing produced in or brought from a foreign country.

I know I know ...open forum....free speech....But I am still entitled to bristle.

Chase, I'm not sure I've used that particular phrase, or if I have, not often.

Please be so kind as to show me exactly where I've used that phrase.

*

I find the entire question from the OP disingenuous and not sincere, Bothell, but I will answer you--the FIRST step to reducing polarization is to stop insulting the intelligence of and lying about and speculating about the motives of those that disagree with one's point of view and discuss only the issues without insult.

It's not going to, Chase... and the problem is bigger than just America, though we do seem to have an overabundance of issues that have lead to the problems we see.

The problems are, in my opinion, greed and lack of ethics. Capitalism doesn't work properly or fairly without ethics and integrity, which seem sorely lacking. The people are only engaged as the barons of capitalism want... fighting amongst themselves over silly things like elections and whatnot, oblivious to the pillaging and polluting and murdering going on behind the scenes of everyday life.

And I think it may be more of a radical, or rigid depending on how it's looked at, element that frequents online forums, so the cross section we see is not that of normal, everyday society. These are the more vocal and extreme of our society. And, yes, I do consider myself more outspoken than a lot of people, if not extreme. I feel strongly about certain issues, and I'm not afraid to put them to voice.

At the highest levels, it's basically excessive greed and a lack of ethics in obtaining everything that has brought us to this point. We have become a nation of "me's", instead of a collective "we".

There are more underlying issues, but I think those are at the top of any list we could make.

That depends. Will there be an outside influence that forces them to stick together? In history, unity is reinforced by the need to stick together against an outside force, such as a threat from an outside tribe or land grab of an outside people.

Look at 911. That's the last time I remember both sides could really compromise with each other. And that didn't last very long.

I think it will take an invasion of a foreign army before they will work together again.

EDUCATION.
When Americans can grasp and understand political agendas and concepts.
Then we can have discussions and compromise.

Being an Independent, I was really hoping for a good Rep candidate this year, because I believe in personal responsibilty. Unfortunately, this country turned into 1% haves, and the rest slipping into have nots. The 1% trying to take it away from the have nots to support the old and the disabled. That's plain WRONG.

thinking about this some more as I go about my day & what I think is missing, on so many levels, is respect. It's good to feel passionate about your beliefs, but they are your beliefs, not someone elses. We all need to respect and listen to each other. I'm starting to think some people are so scared of losing their way of life that they can't or won't listen to anyone who doesn't agree with them. Change can be scary but you can't always stop change.

I agree that any coming together for USians is going to have to be sparked from the outside - we simply have nothing in place (nor the national will) to make any strides toward unity using our own devices.

Too much politicing for too long a time involving too much money and too many candidates most wouldn't want holding any responsible position under any normal circumstances.

It never ends - just grows and gathers itself into a symbol of what we should dislike about ourselves. Fix it? I don't know how. There are platitudes galore, lots here on HT alone, and I'm beginning to dislike those - they flounder in an attempt to shed their particular light and become trite, overused catch-alls for everything perplexing about the human condition. We hammer on problems and proclaim what's right (especially for others and for someone else's own good), but just don't seem to leave room for real forward progress.

I've said it before and we saw it after 9/11. We are like some huge family. We have all our crazy aunts and uncles. We don't always like one another, we can fight like cats and dogs. But don't come after us as a nation, (family). Because then we come together and take on all comers, we circle the wagons and we are willing to die for one another.

Mrs, does that mean that if President Obama is reelected you will rally behind him? I'm not asking the question in a nasty way. That was the point of my OP.....can the American people come together regardless of who the President is ?

They always have chase. The president is not this country, the citizens are. He is there to represent our interests. If Obama wins half of the country is not going to pack their bags and leave, same if Romney wins. And no, I won't rally behind his policies, same as libs won't rally behind Romney's. But we'll all get up in the morning and face the day and spend very little time even thinking about politics unless we happen to log on to this forum, or we have an election for mayor or councilman going on in our town. We will get on with the business of living our lives.

We came together after 9/11 because Democrats, the decent party, did not point fingers ....

Here we have the Republicans unwilling to come together for the good of the country. Refusing to work with Obama on legislation that will help this country move forward in economic matters. Remember the debt ceiling? OMG.

My America is nothing like this board. In my community people of many political persuasions work on local issues together and many of my dearest friends would call themselves conservatives. I am not defined by who I vote for...life is so much more than that.

How could the country possibly come together when there's an industry in place to discredit certain presidents - Democrats - and certain Republicans during primaries - Senator McCain in South Carolina.

Hillary Clinton spoke of it, and it has expanded since then with the prevalence of the internet and on-line media. Once the opposition is cast as 'the other' demonization follows as night after day.

From Richard Hofstadter's 1964 essay The Paranoid Style of American Politics. Communists have been replaced by Muslims (all Muslims being potential terrorists and promoters of sharia law) as the number one boogeyman, with atheists, secular humanists, or Spanish-speaking undocumented immigrants substituting when appropriate. Events since 1939 have given the contemporary right-wing paranoid a vast theatre for his imagination, full of rich and proliferating detail, replete with realistic cues and undeniable proofs of the validity of his suspicions. The theatre of action is now the entire world, and he can draw not only on the events of World War II, but also on those of the Korean War and the Cold War. Any historian of warfare knows it is in good part a comedy of errors and a museum of incompetence; but if for every error and every act of incompetence one can substitute an act of treason, many points of fascinating interpretation are open to the paranoid imagination. In the end, the real mystery, for one who reads the primary works of paranoid scholarship, is not how the United States has been brought to its present dangerous position but how it has managed to survive at all.

The basic elements of contemporary right-wing thought can be reduced to three: First, there has been the now-familiar sustained conspiracy, running over more than a generation, and reaching its climax in Roosevelt's New Deal, to undermine free capitalism, to bring the economy under the direction of the federal government, and to pave the way for socialism or communism. A great many right-wingers would agree with Frank Chodorov, the author of The Income Tax: The Root of All Evil, that this campaign began with the passage of the income-tax amendment to the Constitution in 1913.

The second contention is that top government officialdom has been so infiltrated by Communists that American policy, at least since the days leading up to Pearl Harbor, has been dominated by men who were shrewdly and consistently selling out American national interests.

Finally, the country is infused with a network of Communist agents, just as in the old days it was infiltrated by Jesuit agents, so that the whole apparatus of education, religion, the press, and the mass media is engaged in a common effort to paralyze the resistance of loyal Americans.

...the FIRST step to reducing polarization is to stop insulting the intelligence of and lying about and speculating about the motives of those that disagree with one's point of view and discuss only the issues without insult.

Not many on this forum can get that far.

Demi, how do you expect people to take you seriously or respect your request when you ask them to not insult others by insulting them?
The old "do as I say not as I do" is not going to work to motivate people. Lead by example.

You are your own worst enemy and shoot yourself in the foot with posts like that.

The very first post after the OP's insults the poster ("hypocritical"), accuses him of something that is not evident in his post, and scolds him/her?" about polarizing people by "insulting" and "denigrating" behavior toward those who do not agree with President Obama. Poster number 2 then agrees with and reinforces the attitude of poster number 1.

This is a heavy burden for someone to carry who has asked a legitimate question about a topic that is current and of interest. Much of the same continues throughout the thread. This was not started by liberals. It's the same group that starts these meaningless debates that are about personalities and not issues over and over again. It's here in black and white. It's not conciliatory and ignores the fact that you're guilty of the same behavior that you condemn in others. It would be nice if each new post could start with a clean slate, without the poster being attacked the moment he/she makes a statement. Nothing good can come of that.

Demi, Chase asked a legitimate question and YOU are the one who derailed this thread with your accusations in the first response.

Instead of responding to the question with an opinion your immediately went into attack mode by insulting Chase followed by a high-five my MMG who is one of the most egregious posters here. Those were the first two posts. You have continued in that vein throughout this thread. That is not a discussion. That is stirring the pot. So your words ring hollow to many.

YOU took this thread to the mud. Then CW followed with her nonsense that those that don't live here shouldn't give their opinion and GGM with her usual about "foreigners" and their opinions. It is all there in black and white.

Pointing that out is not an insult--it is only the truth.

I can say the very same about many of the posts you are labeling as insults.

Ending (almost) every post with a "wise" little gem is not helpful either (me guilty; just sayin'). These are "parting shots":

Posted by epiphyticlvr 10 (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 18:33
"I can say the very same about many of the posts you are labeling as insults."
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Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 18:20
"Nothing good can come of that."
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Posted by lavenderlver none (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 18:31
"It's also kind of insulting fwiw.
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Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 17:17
"Romney started pointing fingers immediately."
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Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 17:17
"Remember the debt ceiling? OMG."
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Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 17:16
"Otherwise you're just a whining little rat hiding behind weasel words."
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Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 17:11
"Unless you're going to have a 9/11 event every six months or so..."
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Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 17:01
"The Republicans are trying to kill this country if they can't have it themselves."
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Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 15:29
As you like to say "put up or shut up"
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Posted by october17 5chgo (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 15:26
"I'm wondering if some of the people on the right here may just like to argue. They don't really care who wins. They are just having fun arguing."
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Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 15:18
"Go pick a fight somewhere else....you've been cruising for one all day."
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Posted by demifloyd 8 (My Page) on Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 15:16
"That's a hypocritical question coming from someone that has contributed to that polarization by insulting and denigrating those that disagree with President Obama."

That change was promised but it didn't even come close to being on the agenda.

How could it given the extreme obfuscation that greeted him when he stepped into office? I don't know in the history of politics if there has been such a concerted effort to hurt one party by ignoring the state of America.

You really need to stop blaming the rich for all the troubles. Do you think the low lifes, I'm talking about the gang bangers, theives, welfare cheats, crooked politicians, etc. are not to blame for some of this crap going on in this country.

Who is morally bankrupt besides the rich people? Do you give everyone else in our society a free pass because they didn't have a free ride, they are of color, they are gay, they are whatever?

You keep blaming the rich, but look around you, do you live in a bubble? I can't walk down certain streets in my city at night. It's not because some rich person is going to rob, rape or kill me? Oh and please, don't tell me it's because the criminals had no chance at life. That's a cop out. There are very few who have had it so bad they had to turn to crime to live.

Where I live they are locking up politicians one after the other. Low class individuals you would praise for coming up from nothing, blah, blah, blah. and this is how they showed their loyalty to the people who elected them to office. They are common thugs in suits. Some are black, some are white. When you're currupt color does not matter. They had the world by the butt but thought stealing from non profits and their city or state was more profitable for themn. These are the people I detest. These are the people who are morally bankrupt.

Two days ago a story broke about some woman who set up a non profit to help raise money for the local public school system. Then she decided to run for a seat on the board. Well her opponent starting sniffing around when he learned she had so much money in her election fund. Come to find out she was sending money to organizations, etc. around the country. She had collected donations from individuals and the government an excess of 7 million dollars and she paid herself a salary of $178,000 a year, then told everyone the organization was nearly bankrupt. This is an example of what is wrong with this country, people like this with no moral compass.

As far as I know and please correct me if I'm wrong, Donald Trump, George Bush, the elder Bush nor Mitt Romney have ever stolen money under the guise of a non profit only to pocket the money. You see these are the rich people who support the ones in need and you really need to learn about this and stop the bashing of the rich. They are the ones carrying the weight, but you just don't get it.

When you start taxing them 45% do you think they'll continue to give their millions to support non profits? No they won't and guess what, the government doesn't have enough money to carry that load alone.

The country won't heal, but as the generations move on, the acrimony and hatred towards a black Democratic President will slowly seep out of the public discourse - of course it will be replaced by something else.

Chase, I wish you knew your place. How dare you, a foreigner, criticize this wonderful country. >>This is just such bullsh!t. She has every right to post and say what she wants and as an observer who has no dog in this fight, I welcome her views.

I don't like this country very much anymore. I don't even recognize it. If I were younger and didn't have kids who live a few miles away, I'd move overseas to Norway, Sweden,Switzerland, Germany ...ironic because that's where both sides of my family came 300 years ago for religious freedom and their descendent is an agnostic. But it's a little late in the game for such a move.

At Obama HQ today , my husband met a lawyer who used to work with him, and we all talked for an hour. He's a volunteer too. He said how hard it is in family situations now because of this bitterness. I told him since my parents are dead, I am related to no one but Democrats, and he said how lucky I am. He has three siblings, and two are ardent Obama supporters, lawyers like him, and the sister is a Romney one. He said it's like pounding sand to show her how blind she is, because she has three daughters who will suffer the consequences of an R&R win. We lamented that the average dumb American could not name a supreme Court justice let alone get the idea to penetrate their mind that three of them will be replaced in the next four years. A Romney court will overturn Roe in a heart beat. Mitt already said he would.

Really lily...it's like pounding sand trying to show her how blind she is? What pure arrogance. Right now 51% of Americans don't think she is blind at all. You have every right to feel like Obama is the best president ever. She has every right to feel he is the worst. That is why we have elections, we choose who we feel best represents our interests. It doesn't make either of us all right or all wrong, just different in our views.

Chase what is your take so far from the responses if America can heal?

I still believe we can and will heal. The one thing I take great comfort because of my reasons first stated and history will write the true accomplishments. Future generations will know so every kid and grandchildren of the posters here will not be able to influence what is written and taught in schools.

It will be a larger portion of Presidential education because he is the first African American President. Anything that is the "first" gets the biggest print section in text books.. Just as Kennedy because he was assassinated gets a larger print section for being assassinated.

You cannot tell one person today that Columbus did not discover America because it is taught in schools and not taught by Faux News.

Truth be told these men really are more concerned about history and their legacy than the time they spend in office. It is a generation issue. His children and their children's children will have something to be proud to say their name is Obama.

The picture is much bigger than people want to look at. We're not gonna heal... we're gonna continue to allow greed to pull us into a world we can't survive. Yes, it sounds glum, but there you have it. Global warming is a big issue, but only one of many.

Lily, I don't like responding to you but Chase does indeed have a dog in the fight.She is a liberal and progressive who has sided on every thread she has posted to with this forums liberal and progressives. That is not exactly neutral.

As for your frustrated friend pounding sand...he is a bully.Why would anyone make a family gathering into an uncomfortable situation by intimidating a young woman who has her own opinion just because it isn't his opinion? Then he gets other relatives to pound on her as well? Glad the jerk isn't related to me.

"I still believe we can and will heal. The one thing I take great comfort because of my reasons first stated and history will write the true accomplishments. Future generations will know so every kid and grandchildren of the posters here will not be able to influence what is written and taught in schools."

Your way or the highway, ay? That wouldn't be democratic. Everyone's voice needs to be heard.

Yes. Chase is. On most things. Certainly, not all. She has said as much, herself.

"who has sided on every thread she has posted to with this forums liberal and progressives."

No. Chase hasn't. And unlike the repugs here, I have seen her, many times, criticize the Left, The Dems and Obama, too.

I will agree with you that she DOES have a dog in this fight. Again, she herself has said so on many occasions. She does share the Continent of North America with us... and even if she didn't... she has the right to post and participate in any and all threads on this forum. Close proximity and shared geography are not the only qualifiers needed to be concerned with this election.

She is known, forum wide (Gardenweb/That Home Site), for her level headedness, her sense of fairness and decency. She is not a troublemaker... she is also very honest and not afraid to speak up when she sees someone doing something hypocritical... even if that someone is someone she is friendly, very friendly, with. Because of this, she is very popular and well liked. She is thoughtful, smart and open minded. She is quick to call out wrongdoing no matter which side is doing the harm. And, no, I'm not friends with her.. all of this is based on observation. Lots of people know this.

And that is why it drives one particular poster here, at HT, absolutely MAD that Chase has no respect for her and isn't afraid to say so!

Everyone on this planet has a dog in the fight. It can't be otherwise. We all breathe air from the same atmosphere, eat from the same oceans, and either benefit or lose from the actions of our governments and other powerful influences.

It's wonderful to have the added perspectives of other nations represented here, like Canada. I wish there were more nations represented.

The solution is really quite simple and we have already been told what to do in order to have our land healed...

GGM said... "I'm afraid you're right, I agree this country is splintered like never before. What's the answer to bring back American pride and pride for ones self? I have some ideas but would never post them because then an all out war would break out and liberals would be fainting and catching a case of the vapors. "

Well I am not afraid of the wrath of 4th grade mentality, so I will share the secret with y'all... and personally I don't care if y'all faint or get a case of the vapors.. pehaps if you did, you might open your eyes to the real world and what it is doing....

The answer lies in 2 Chronicles7:14 ~ quite simple really, but we must pray fervently and not superficially.

Ingrid vc said ~ "in a poll taken in Ireland, 94% of those polled wanted Obama to be president."

Then by all means, let him be Ireland's leader... rather than allow him to denigrate our beautiful country even further.

Brushworks nailed it quite well..."How on earth can America heal?
This was discussed before. Be a country of the people, by the people and for the people.

That change was promised but it didn't even come close to being on the agenda. "

Not only in Ireland but across the globe , Obama is popular by percentages close to 90. The rest of the world hated Bush and don't like Romney either. Of course, most are socialist progressive countries . Yes, Chase does have an indirect "dog in the race", because a R&R win would devastate the planet with wars and trashing of the environment. ..Ya know, those pesky regulations that help us breath and interferes with companies profits?

Lily, glad you posted this statement.
I think this is a good example of the mind set of a Democrat.
The left is sooooooo not tolerant. If one doesn't confess
and vow to be a "born again Obama" believer, then one is
dumb and un-informed.

I have all the brothers in my life and only one is a Democrat. He is intelligent beyond belief but so are the Republican brothers. One is no smarter than the other
because of their political beliefs.
None of us would EVER try to "pound sense into him".
That would be like telling him he is so dumb he can't decide for himself. I gasp at that thought. We all respect
him to much for such games.

Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on Sun, Oct 21, 12 at 2:42

At Obama HQ today , my husband met a lawyer who used to work with him, and we all talked for an hour. He's a volunteer too. He said how hard it is in family situations now because of this bitterness. I told him since my parents are dead, I am related to no one but Democrats, and he said how lucky I am. He has three siblings, and two are ardent Obama supporters, lawyers like him, and the sister is a Romney one.
((( He said it's like pounding sand to show her how blind she is,))))))))

America is so dumbed down that I don't even care any more.
**********************************************************

ENMc, I've know Chase on Gardenweb for over 10 years and you couldn't have described her better.

I've lurked here since just before the last election and have noticed often, posters from other countries have been told that they had no right to an opinion. It is rather amusing to see this high and mighty attitude that no one is allowed to criticize the USA.

"That change was promised but it didn't even come close to being on the agenda. "

Like anyone could have fixed the problems left by the last Administration in four years.

And if the Republicans, heaven forbid, get back in for four more years, that will set the healing back for many years to come.

Not mentioned in this thread is the radical shift to the far right driving whats left of the Republican Party into the teaparty / self-styled "conservatives". So where 15 years ago, we have ideas for universal health coverage proposed by Romney at the state level Nixon at the national level, petty much what Obamacare is today, but today thats screamed down as some apoplectic socialist government take over. The Republicans gave us the EPA, National Parks, did huge things for conserving national resources, and now all that stuff is commie socialism.

Might help Israel, but won't do much for Christian America, not yet the Chosen People:

' . . . the challenge of II Chronicles 7:14 is NOT a challenge to us today. The promise of the verse is NOT a promise to us today. The program under which God says those words is NOT the program He has in effect today. Rather, the program was God's dealings with Israel. The promise of II Chronicles 7:14 was to them as His nation in covenant relationship with Him. And the challenge was one God gave them, which if they responded to, would cause the curses they were experiencing to cease; which curses they were experiencing for their failures under the law. Hence, by failing to "rightly divide the word of truth," multitudes of Christians today are asking God to fulfil a promise that He has not made to us. They are being made to think that God is treating us today the same way in which He treated Israel. And they are being made to take Israel's promises and claim them as applicable to us today. This is truly unfortunate and is wrong.'

Okay, I cheated and looked up 2 Chronicles 7:14. Sin sin evil evil overtaking every facet of our society. No wonder we can't heal since - according to some - we've turned away from everything considered good and holy and can do absolutely nothing but butt sit until the church (somebody's church!) turns itself around and Christ can take over all nations and establish a kingdom.

That is as frightening unsettling to me as it must be for the few of you who cringe in fear of Islam taking over.

Nothing like a Bible quote to put some real perspective on things. Lofty thoughts to misuse and misinterpret all over the place.

Me? I'd rather the wake-up call be the electorate wising up and kicking these ideological idiots to the curb.

esh, Jodik had written this and it's referring to the rich, you know the ones she blames for everything wrong in this country.

The problems are, in my opinion, greed and lack of ethics. Capitalism doesn't work properly or fairly without ethics and integrity, which seem sorely lacking. The people are only engaged as the barons of capitalism want... fighting amongst themselves over silly things like elections and whatnot, oblivious to the pillaging and polluting and murdering going on behind the scenes of everyday life.

Lily, I have a question, how do you know the following (posted earlier)

R&R win would devastate the planet with wars and trashing of the environment.
========================================================
And you know this for certain, HOW? Besides anything based on your prejudice against anyone Republican of course.

President Richard Nixon's Special Message to the Congress Proposing a Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan

February 6, 1974

To the Congress of the United States:

One of the most cherished goals of our democracy is to assure every American an equal opportunity to lead a full and productive life.

In the last quarter century, we have made remarkable progress toward that goal, opening the doors to millions of our fellow countrymen who were seeking equal opportunities in education, jobs and voting.

Now it is time that we move forward again in still another critical area: health care.

Without adequate health care, no one can make full use of his or her talents and opportunities. It is thus just as important that economic, racial and social barriers not stand in the way of good health care as it is to eliminate those barriers to a good education and a good job.

Three years ago, I proposed a major health insurance program to the Congress, seeking to guarantee adequate financing of health care on a nationwide basis. That proposal generated widespread discussion and useful debate. But no legislation reached my desk.

Today the need is even more pressing because of the higher costs of medical care. Efforts to control medical costs under the New Economic Policy have been Inept with encouraging success, sharply reducing the rate of inflation for health care. Nevertheless, the overall cost of health care has still risen by more than 20 percent in the last two and one-half years, so that more and more Americans face staggering bills when they receive medical help today:

--Across the Nation, the average cost of a day of hospital care now exceeds $110.
--The average cost of delivering a baby and providing postnatal care approaches $1,000.
--The average cost of health care for terminal cancer now exceeds $20,000.

For the average family, it is clear that without adequate insurance, even normal care can 'be a financial burden while a catastrophic illness can mean catastrophic debt.

Beyond the question of the prices of health care, our present system of health care insurance suffers from two major flaws :

First, even though more Americans carry health insurance than ever before, the 25 million Americans who remain uninsured often need it the most and are most unlikely to obtain it. They include many who work in seasonal or transient occupations, high-risk cases, and those who are ineligible for Medicaid despite low incomes.

Second, those Americans who do carry health insurance often lack coverage which is balanced, comprehensive and fully protective:

--Forty percent of those who are insured are not covered for visits to physicians on an out-patient basis, a gap that creates powerful incentives toward high cost care in hospitals;
--Few people have the option of selecting care through prepaid arrangements offered by Health Maintenance Organizations so the system at large does not benefit from the free choice and creative competition this would offer;
--Very few private policies cover preventive services;
--Most health plans do not contain built-in incentives to reduce waste and inefficiency. The extra costs of wasteful practices are passed on, of course, to consumers; and
--Fewer than half of our citizens under 65--and almost none over 65--have major medical coverage which pays for the cost of catastrophic illness.

These gaps in health protection can have tragic consequences. They can cause people to delay seeking medical attention until it is too late. Then a medical crisis ensues, followed by huge medical bills--or worse. Delays in treatment can end in death or lifelong disability.

COMPREHENSIVE HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN (CHIP)

Early last year, I directed the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare to prepare a new and improved plan for comprehensive health insurance. That plan, as I indicated in my State of the Union message, has been developed and I am presenting it to the Congress today. I urge its enactment as soon as possible.

The plan is organized around seven principles:

First, it offers every American an opportunity to obtain a balanced, comprehensive range of health insurance benefits;

Second, it will cost no American more than he can afford to pay;
Third, it builds on the strength and diversity of our existing public and private systems of health financing and harmonizes them into an overall system;

Fourth, it uses public funds only where needed and requires no new Federal taxes;

Fifth, it would maintain freedom of choice by patients and ensure that doctors work for their patient, not for the Federal Government.

Sixth, it encourages more effective use of our health care resources;

And finally, it is organized so that all parties would have a direct stake in making the system work--consumer, provider, insurer, State governments and the Federal Government.

BROAD AND BALANCED PROTECTION FOR ALL AMERICANS

Upon adoption of appropriate Federal and State legislation, the Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan would offer to every American the same broad and balanced health protection through one of three major programs:

--Employee Health Insurance, covering most Americans and offered at their place of employment, with the cost to be shared by the employer and employee on a basis which would prevent excessive burdens on either;

--Assisted Health Insurance, covering low-income persons, and persons who would be ineligible for the other two programs, with Federal and State government paying those costs beyond the means of the individual who is insured; and,

--An improved Medicare Plan, covering those 65 and over and offered through a Medicare system that is modified to include additional, needed benefits.
One of these three plans would be available to every American, but for everyone, participation in the program would be voluntary.

snip

the only difference I see is that his would be voluntary. But to get the insurance companies to go along with this, it would have to be mandatory - pretty much what McCain proposed. And Obamacare did.

A wealthy nation such as yours should have been the front runner for universal health care. As a parent, you want the best for your children. Why wouldn't the US as a country want to provide the best health care for all of its citizens?

In the beginning it was a nation led by revolutionairies, and we should never forget that. These men, who first dissented then rebelled to save themselves from prison or hanging, were of many different types. The ascendant type was the aristocrat, typified by George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. These were the men of action and lands and leisure. But there were other types: the nervous-fingered writer Thomas Paine, the shrewd but placid burgher Benjamin Franklin, the wild-eyed silversmith Paul Revere. And the types, themselves, became confused. Alexander Hamilton, a brilliant bast@rd from the Antilles, became the epitome of the aristocracy; Jefferson, the true aristocrat, became the symbol of states' rights and the common man.

The times were violent and these were violent men. Political dissent was more restrained than now, for to call a man or his party "traitor" invited sudden death at the end of a rapier or looking down a gun barrel..

So we argue our sides of politics here and sometimes it gets heated and nasty. But we've come a long way. We battle it out in the voting booth and live to argue for another four years.

I agree that was the way it was in the past, mrskjun. But since 2008, politics has taken a nasty turn that goes beyond "We battle it out in the voting booth and live to argue for another four years. " The hard obstruction by the Republican Congressman was not simply living with it.

" The hard obstruction by the Republican Congressman was not simply living with it.

esh exactly! There has been polls showing the Tea Party is losing influence. This has been the problem of them taking over the Republican party. Our government was never set up of my way or no way. It is not how we live our everyday lives. If a husband says it has to ALWAYS be my way or a wife says it has to ALWAYS be my way the union does not work.

It sounded good to a lot of people in the beginning until they saw the results. More sober minds have begun to see that is not the way that normal people solve problems. It does not reflect real life problem solving.

If you think about it when is the last time you have seen at any rally the Nazi Signs with President Obama pictures and the silliness that went on in 2008? Normal people can read and they understand policy. They will not risk their country or their lives on hatred and divisiveness.

This is why you have the real Republicans voting for the President. We see it here at HT and my neighbors
Nearly four out of five Republicans said at the time it is either "very important" or "extremely important" that the Republican-dominated House of Representatives work "with President Obama and the Democratic leadership in the Senate to pass new legislation that both parties can agree on."

If you think about it when is the last time you have seen at any rally the Nazi Signs with President Obama pictures ....last time? Enjoy the pictures.

What I find strange is the last two years of the Bush administration he had a democratic house and senate. Yet they have never been blamed for any of the economic failures. The first two years, Obama had a democratic house and senate. Never passed a budget, the deficit kept growing by leaps and bounds, but suddenly in his third year, the house, not the senate, became a majority republican, and all of a sudden his first two years didn't exist. It was those republicans that came in during his third year that has been the cause of all of his problems for the past four years...and then of course Bush from the other end.

Why wouldn't the US as a country want to provide the best health care for all of its citizens?

Such a good question. I think the answer is displayed here everyday. Conservatives don't want their money going to help pay for anyone else's insurance. They don't understand that everyone having insurance will bring down their costs. Just look at the "outrage" at insurance covering birth control without copays. They just don't understand how it works and have been told by Fox News that it's bad.

How many times do we need to remind you that the Democratic majority in the Senate was largely irrelevant since the Republicans were determined to filibuster anything Democrats tried to do. A 50% majority is not a 60% majority--and a filibuster requires a 60% majority.

Why not look back at the actual bills presented and who voted for what. This game of who was the majority and super majority and so on is getting tedious.

Romney, as Governor, is now running ads about how he worked so well bipartisanly in MA. Yet he vetoed 800 bills. Looks to me the the only significant thing he passed 'bipartisan' with the democratic legislature was the health care bill, which is like Obama passing massive tax cuts for oil companies with a 90% Republican congress.

As the unofficial, self-elected spokesperson for the Rest of the World, I have a strong opinion on this...

The current polarisation and resulting vicious political, then social, hatred in the USA began the day after Obama was elected in 2008. Who was it who said words to the effect that the GOP would not rest until Obama was no longer president? "Anybody but Obama"? Then set out to deny every bill that the Dems proposed, simply out of spite? Filibustered when the Dems had the numbers, then vetoed when they could? And called on all GOP supporters to do likewise? Destroyed the future prosperity and happiness of ALL citizens of the USA, simply out of sheer bloody-minded negativity and senseless opposition?

Refused to allow the new President to make decisions that may have (or may not have...we'll never know) improved US citizens' lives, fixed the economy, created jobs, provided better education and health outcomes?

Please remind me who demanded that negativity at the outset, because THAT is the person I blame for the current divisions in US society and politics.

Plus the people who agreed with him and blindly followed and concurred.

shaxhome, thank you for your very cogent and intelligent analysis of what has actually happened since President Obama took office. Many of us have long shared your opinion, and it is a well-known fact by now that the GOP deliberately undermined the president's every policy and plan. However, this seems to carry no weight with the people on this forum who favor Mr. Romney, and they basically simply choose to ignore this very important fact. To add insult to injury, they actually blame President Obama for this state of affairs!

What's even more galling is that at this point just about half the country seems to be supporting Mr. Romney, who seems to change his mind about his political policies almost as often as he changes his socks. Apparently many of our citizens are not capable of an unemotional analysis of the facts. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

shaxhome - thanks! As I see it, that is exactly the reason we are so polarized. When one party openly admits they don't give a crap about the people of the country they were elected to represent and will block every attempt to improve the country, then we have a serious problem. And even more importantly, a large section of the population thinks that's just dandy, then the polarization continues to get worse. I blame the politicians that started it but even more I blame the people of this country that agree with that plan. When the only objective of those people is to make the President not be effective and damn the people that they are hurting, those people are the problem and the biggest cause of the polarization.

I love history books and cannot wait to read what will be written of this time in 6 years. I do think that the usual 20 to 30 years that history books really tell the tale it will be sooner this time around because of the polarization.

Because the racial make up of America is changing so fast what is written about this time will move fast.

The Electoral. map is showing why they are saying Obama will win. The larger delegate states are the states that are heavy Hispanic, and Democratic leaning. The election cannot be won carrying the Southern States that have such small delegates numbers. Louisiana with its piddly 9 delegates cannot stack up to California's 55 delegates.

demi, you haven't been paying attention to the job the president has done. Every time someone lists every accomplishment, in spite of Congress's effort to thwart him at every point, you have no comeback that's factual and logical. Usually you and your friends just disappear. That's galling too!

demi, you haven't been paying attention to the job the president has done. Every time someone lists every accomplishment, in spite of Congress's effort to thwart him at every point, you have no comeback that's factual and logical. Usually you and your friends just disappear. That's galling too!

*

Au contraire, Miss Ingrid, I have certainly been paying attention to what the President has been doing, and what he has not been doing.

That's why I want him to be helicoptered back to Illinois or wherever his heart takes him in January.

My question is, how do you know what I've been paying attention to and where do you get off stating what I've been paying attention to?

That's a broad statement to make when you're ignorant as to what I pay attention to, Ingrid.

Why do you need to even make a comment about what I pay attention to?

Why don't you either just accept my post, agree with it factually, or post some counter point?

Why the need to tell me I haven't been "paying attention" when you don't know what in the cornbread hades you're talking about?

Why do you think it is incumbent on me to respond every time someone posts one of Obama's accomplishments?

Apparently you do by your "charge" in your post.

I have sometimes posted and sometimes not, just like in every thread. Some I don't even read, some I don't have anything I want to add to.

It doesn't mean I necessarily agree with or disagree with the posts.

Why are you constantly bringing me into threads and addressing me and the way I post?

Why I post and do not post is none of your business, Ingrid.

You don't get to dictate what I respond to, you don't get to chastise me for not responding to posts when you think I should, and there is absolutely no basis for assuming anything from the fact that I do or don't post on any particular thread here--you don't even know what I read and don't read--I can guarantee you I don't open them all and don't read all of the posts.

So, I'm really tired of you talking about me all the time and having to correct your misrepresentations and respond to your comments about me, personally, and the manner in which I state my opinions, what I post about and speculations about what I think and why I think the way I do.

Chase, ignore Demi and the demi lites. She is behaving shamefully and is trying to shove off the personal responsibility for her behavior on you.

I think you have asked a very pertinent, important question and my fearful response is that I don't think America will heal for a very long time. I figure about 30 or 40 years, when this current, older crop of Americans die off, perhaps there will be a chance.
I hope I'm wrong, I fear I will not be wrong. There is no one person to unite us because we don't want to be united.

Mylab , I only concern myself with opinions about me that are held by people I respect. I don't need to agree with them , nor them with me, but I do need to respect them before their opinion about me matters much.

What is shameful is 46.7 MILLION Americans on foodstamps under President Obama.

What is shameful is after repeated requests by Ambassador Stevens for more and better security, he didn't get it, was murdered on 9-11, and President Obama hi tailed it to Vegas to raise money for his reelection campaign.

What is shameful is people that insult United States citizens for their opinions and their intelligence, contribute actively and daily to discord, then ask aloud how can America heal with a straight face?

I would be interested in you showing me post where I have INSULTED Americans for their opinions or their intelligence. Perhaps I may have said something in that regard about a few of the more extreme right wing posters but even then I doubt I've said anything worse about your fellow Americans than you have...of that I am very sure.

Unless disagreeing is insulting, unless calling out untruth is insulting,......

Demi.
Enough actually mean? Is she being silenced? Go stand in the corner Demi, you talked against the Obama followers!!

Reminder to you people who refuse to accept the truth, but every time the congress tried to work with Obama they were met with "I believe I won the election." Yes, he said it time and time again because he's an arrogant socialist who only sees his vision of rewriting America and her history. I am so heartbroken for what awaits the future for my great nieces and nephews with a country that is socialist and by the time they grow up, probably communist.

Molly, are you actually so paranoid that you believe all of what you just stated?

Clearly I was telling Demi enough of her black mood in this forum today.

She's one of yours too, Demi!

When I'm in a black mood I like to kick back and watch the latest Jon Stewart or the Colbert Report show I DVR every night. It keeps me giggling throughout both shows.

I must admit, I have no idea what political comedy shows Fox runs, but since conservatives in here have repeatedly remarked about their perception of the absence of a sense of humor regarding democrats - surely there must be *some* politically conservative comedy show or two which is equally popular with conservatives, containing sharp wit which can aid in elevating a bad mood.

"If this forum is any indication of the country at large I can't see any way that the US can come together as a nation to solve it's problems regardless of who wins!"

America doesn't need to "heal."

AMERICA is not the "problem." Our leaders are the problem.
And AMERICA isn't sick. America just makes her CRITICS sick.

They've enjoyed four years of apology tours, scoldings, disrespect, dictatorial edicts and cockiness. The majority of Americans have been alarmed by that kind of behavior. For them, it has been a rough four years.

I'm guessing they've had enough. They are increasingly ready to move on with an optimistic, pro American leader. What a refreshing option! With any luck, it will prove irresistible.

nik, did you see the graph put up on another thread that shows that during the last four years under President Obama our ratings abroad have gone up in every category? We're enjoying unparallelled popularity everywhere in the world compared to the Bush years. Most people polled abroad either don't like Romney or don't know who the heck he is. Either way I really think they'd rather stick with Obama. That certainly goes double for the countries Mr. Romney visited on his disastrous foreign tour.

If the links that accompany some of the far-right paranoid posts in HT are representative, there is an industry devoted to keeping reactionaries in a tizzy and unable to even think about cooperating with a Marxist Kenyan who extols Islam.

(I shudder to think what would have been said had Hillary Clinton been elected. What would the sexist equivalent of a birther be?)

Someone is funding this industry, and someone is profiting from this division.

Chase, you have every right to post your opinions and views on this forum. Indeed, I welcome postings from our friends overseas.

I think it will take a major disaster, such as 9-11, to unite us as a nation, once more, alas. I wish I did not have to write that.

I also agree with Jodik that everyone on our planet has a dog in this hunt.

Futhermore, I blame part of the disunion on the Media. Americans have become so dumbed down that they only want to be entertained. Obviously the Media feeds this frenzy. (it used to be called Bread & Circuses in Roman times). I think many Americans have come to see U.S. politics like a great big football game. As marquest wrote, most don't want to be united. They want to WIN.

It will take decades of this generation dying off before real change would occur, IMHO.

And then, we invaded Iraq and the flag wrapped "support our troops!" e-mails from patriotic, REAL Americans began in earnest, to be replaced only by ferociously ugly emails that began about a black and red dress worn by the new First Lady and continued on until I learned that the e-mail block function is my friend.

All from the same REAL Americans, of course.

It will take something far bigger and more lasting - if in fact anything can really, *really* unite us.

After all, the baby boomers will still be around and still want to squabble about what to do, who should be in charge to do it and who is really the REAL patriotic American - and who is not.

"All but flat out accusing me of being a closet racist--several times--is insulting someone for giving their political opinion. "

It never occurred to me that racial bigotry and prejudice are politically motivated. I just think of it as a measure of personal values and respect for ones fellow man and neighbour. That type of attitude has no political bounds.

Still not sure how that extrapolates to my insulting the American people for their political views. Still waiting for some examples of how I have done that.

I have no reason to lie about you, because I don't hold a personal opinion about you and I don't care what you think, or who you support.

One day if I wanted to devote lots of time to search for remarks over the last few years I might do it.

I'm not one that sits around here saving comments every day, although after years and years on this forum I will admit starting about two months ago to save a few of the more interesting comments about the election results--just in case. If Romney wins they are going to prove to be quite entertaining.

But life is indeed short and as I said, it would be a waste of my time to spend time searching for them.

And so what if I did spend that time?
You know in your heart what you've accused me of, very carefully, and insinuated about me and my beliefs-which have nothing to do with my posts, but about me, personally.

So answer your own question.

I'm confident enough in my own beliefs to not be threatened by yours, and in fact respect and celebrate that you have your own beliefs.

While I have often been critical of the American political system and American foreign policy I have made it a point never to be critical of the American people.

I said something quite a while ago that offended Maggie who I have great respect for. From that day to this I don't believe I have ever spoken badly of the American people. If someone can show me that I did than I will truly apologize.

Chase, FWIW, I have never thought that you were insulting the American PEOPLE. I don't mind if you point out issues that could be better handled by our government, our institutions, etc. That is a huge difference. Often, I have found myself agreeing with your point of view. I see you as a fair-minded, open person, with a keen mind, that often cuts through a lot of the carp posted here.

Hay, of course you know that the role of French Canadians in WW2 was significant. What ever you may think of the role of France in the war is no way reflective of Canada's role including our brave french Canadian troops.

"Hay, of course you know that the role of French Canadians in WW2 was significant. What ever you may think of the role of France in the war is no way reflective of Canada's role including our brave french Canadian troops."

You haven't. I don't know why you would give any credence to this accusation, Chase.

This is really very simple. SHE is the UNITED STATES CITIZEN she was referring to. That's it. Nothing more. This campaign against you started back in June...it simmered just barely under the surface all summer and resurfaced, with a vengeance, in September. It is now boiling over.

This is just round 6 or 7 of the "veil slipped" stuff. Don't sweat it...she threw you a curveball by using your decency and sense of fairness against itself. And that of course, is the rub. She's knows you don't casually insult anyone. And if you had inadvertently done so, you would, sincerely, apologize.

This is just more of that nonsense. Like I said, nothing more. Everyone gets it.

EnMC, I don't know who you are although I suspect you may have posted here before under a different name. I very much appreciate your support however I don't think it is necessarily helpful for you to use me as a means to voice your opinion about Demi.

If you have something to say to her directly, please do, I am sure I would likely agree but please don't use me as the medium.

Again I truly am appreciative of your support , you describe my intent perfectly.