Since my parents are out of town (out of the country in fact) I might be able to sneak out tomorrow, take the train to The Hague, walk to the parish for 23 minutes or so (I do hope Google Maps made a mistake in its calculation of the travel time!) and make it on time for the divine liturgy.

If I go through with my plan and ever find the parish the liturgy will be in Church Slavonic or Bulgarian. I don't really speak either of them, so any advice there? I've never been to a divine liturgy before.

I don't know whether many of the parishioners can speak Dutch. How will they see me as a newcomer? What (if anything) will they say ?

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 04:48:24 AM by Cyrillic »

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Most likely the liturgy would be a mixture between Church Slavonic (all the troparia, antiphons and other hymns) and Bulgarian (Epistle and Gospel readings, Homily, the Creed); Our Father would probably be in Bulgarian, if it is recited by the whole parish or in Church Slavonic, if it is sung by a choir; the Litanies would be either in Church Slavonic or in Bulgarian. Generally the Bulgarians (in Bulgaria) commune rarely, so there might be few or even no communicants. Even if many of the parishioners don't speak Dutch, I guess they would speak English. Although the Orthodox Churches in Western Europe tend to be more enthic, I think newcomers are welcome.

You could try to memorize or write down the basic order of the service so that you won't feel so lost. The basic structure is actually quite simple but it might be a little overwhelming is one is not used to the Byzantine rite services.

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

You could try to memorize or write down the basic order of the service so that you won't feel so lost. The basic structure is actually quite simple but it might be a little overwhelming is one is not used to the Byzantine rite services.

Please elaborate. Anything I could read?

Oh, and is there some sort of dress code?

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:20:40 AM by Cyrillic »

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You could try to memorize or write down the basic order of the service so that you won't feel so lost. The basic structure is actually quite simple but it might be a little overwhelming is one is not used to the Byzantine rite services.

Please elaborate. Anything I could read?

When I first attended a Byzantine rite service I was completely lost since everything seemed to happen behind the iconostasis, echo blurred the choir's singing and some fancily dressed bearded people seemed to just randomly pop out to visit the congregation from the altar without any logic. That wasn't quite as heavenly that some people seem to experience while visiting an Orthodox church for first time. I was thinking that if you knew in what order everything (litanies, antiphons, readings etc.) happens you might avoid that kind of feelings.

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom can be found here. I don't think you need to bring the whole text of the service with you though but you might want to familiarize yourself with the basic structure of the service.

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

What to do when they say: "All ye catechumens, depart! Depart, ye catechumens! All ye that are catechumens, depart! Let no catechumens remain! But let us who are of the faithful, again and again, in peace pray to the Lord."?

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That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again.-A.E. Housman

What to do when they say: "All ye catechumens, depart! Depart, ye catechumens! All ye that are catechumens, depart! Let no catechumens remain! But let us who are of the faithful, again and again, in peace pray to the Lord."?

Make sure you don't block the entrance since most Orthodox people arrive round about that time

If you're not at a monastery or the priest happens to be very conservative, no one will expect you to leave.

What to do when they say: "All ye catechumens, depart! Depart, ye catechumens! All ye that are catechumens, depart! Let no catechumens remain! But let us who are of the faithful, again and again, in peace pray to the Lord."?

Make sure you don't block the entrance since most Orthodox people arrive round about that time

If you're not at a monastery or the priest happens to be very conservative, no one will expect you to leave.

Thanks.

Would I have to call the parish in advance or can I just walk in?

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If it's a Slavic parish, they'll probably read the 3rd and 6th Hours beforehand. They take about 20mins typically.

If it's a Greek/Arab parish, they'll have Orthros before, which normally lasts 1-1.5 hours. Since the length of Matins will vary slightly depending on the Tone of the week, the length of the hymns, etc. the start time of the Divine Liturgy is often 10-15mins earlier or later than the advertised time.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

What to do when they say: "All ye catechumens, depart! Depart, ye catechumens! All ye that are catechumens, depart! Let no catechumens remain! But let us who are of the faithful, again and again, in peace pray to the Lord."?

In the Bulgarian practice this part (the Litany of the catechumens) is most likely to be omitted, although it might be said aloud or silently.

If it is in The Hauge, then i would assume(being in the same country and all) that you would be able to find a Dutch speaker.

I would personally recommend looking over the liturgy beforehand, and like Alpo said, become familiar with it. However, personally, I would recommend against using a service book, rather, just let yourself be fully immersed into the Liturgy.

I'm quite a loner, personally, so i just stood by myself to begin with, and then let myself slowly be immersed into the life of the parish as time went by.

If it's a Slavic parish, they'll probably read the 3rd and 6th Hours beforehand. They take about 20mins typically.

If it's a Greek/Arab parish, they'll have Orthros before, which normally lasts 1-1.5 hours. Since the length of Matins will vary slightly depending on the Tone of the week, the length of the hymns, etc. the start time of the Divine Liturgy is often 10-15mins earlier or later than the advertised time.

Bulgarians don't fit in either category, they are some mixture between the two traditions.

On the parish website the services scheduled for tomorrow are Sunday Orthros and Divine Liturgy. The reading for the Liturgy tomorrow are exactly the same as given here - http://goarch.org/chapel/main_view?D=12%2F02%2F2012 - Ephesians 5:8-19 and Luke 18:35-43, while the readings on the OCA site are Ephesians 5:9-19 and Luke 18:18-27. In the calendar of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church Luke 18:18-27 was given for the previous Sunday, as it is on the GOARCH website.

If it's a Slavic parish, they'll probably read the 3rd and 6th Hours beforehand. They take about 20mins typically.

If it's a Greek/Arab parish, they'll have Orthros before, which normally lasts 1-1.5 hours. Since the length of Matins will vary slightly depending on the Tone of the week, the length of the hymns, etc. the start time of the Divine Liturgy is often 10-15mins earlier or later than the advertised time.

Bulgarians don't fit in either category, they are some mixture between the two traditions.

On the parish website the services scheduled for tomorrow are Sunday Orthros and Divine Liturgy. The reading for the Liturgy tomorrow are exactly the same as given here - http://goarch.org/chapel/main_view?D=12%2F02%2F2012 - Ephesians 5:8-19 and Luke 18:35-43, while the readings on the OCA site are Ephesians 5:9-19 and Luke 18:18-27. In the calendar of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church Luke 18:18-27 was given for the previous Sunday, as it is on the GOARCH website.

I can't read Bulgarian but I'll translate a bit from the Dutch site:

Quote

Metten (=Orthros) and Divine Liturgy 10:30

The service both in Slavic and Dutch.

So what does this mean? Does Orthros start at 10:30 or the Divine Liturgy? Is the DL in Dutch? I read that it was in Slavonic/Bulgarian only.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 02:08:59 PM by Cyrillic »

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So what does this mean? Does Orthros start at 10:30 or the Divine Liturgy? Is the DL in Dutch? I read that it was in Slavonic/Bulgarian only.

It is not clear from the information provided in Bulgarian. It just states: "10:30 - Sunday Orthros and Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. The church is opened from 10:30 until 15:00."

Towards the bottom of the page it states that "В храма се черкуват Православни християни от различни националности - българи, руснаци, украинци, грузинци, холандци, сърби, румънци, гърци", which means that the services are attended by Orthodox Christians of different nationalities - Bulgarians, Russians, Ukrainians, Dutch, Serbs, Romanians, Greeks. If it is true, the parish may not be so ethnic, as I assumed earlier.

Since my parents are out of town (out of the country in fact) I might be able to sneak out tomorrow, take the train to The Hague, walk to the parish for 23 minutes or so (I do hope Google Maps made a mistake in its calculation of the travel time!) and make it on time for the divine liturgy.

If I go through with my plan and ever find the parish the liturgy will be in Church Slavonic or Bulgarian. I don't really speak either of them, so any advice there? I've never been to a divine liturgy before.

I don't know whether many of the parishioners can speak Dutch. How will they see me as a newcomer? What (if anything) will they say ?

Btw, are you Dutch, or just living in the Netherlands?

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Since my parents are out of town (out of the country in fact) I might be able to sneak out tomorrow, take the train to The Hague, walk to the parish for 23 minutes or so (I do hope Google Maps made a mistake in its calculation of the travel time!) and make it on time for the divine liturgy.

If I go through with my plan and ever find the parish the liturgy will be in Church Slavonic or Bulgarian. I don't really speak either of them, so any advice there? I've never been to a divine liturgy before.

I don't know whether many of the parishioners can speak Dutch. How will they see me as a newcomer? What (if anything) will they say ?

Btw, are you Dutch, or just living in the Netherlands?

Dutch and living in the Netherlands.

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I can understand wanting to get there on time, but just keep reminding yourself that it is not the end of the world if you are a bit late. This is Orthodoxy. Many people will walk through the doors as though they're still suffering jet-lag from the journey to America from the old country.

I can understand wanting to get there on time, but just keep reminding yourself that it is not the end of the world if you are a bit late. This is Orthodoxy. Many people will walk through the doors as though they're still suffering jet-lag from the journey to America from the old country.

I can understand they're late if they're in America

But if I would take the next train I'd be 10 or 20 minutes late.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 06:03:56 PM by Cyrillic »

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That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again.-A.E. Housman

Hahahaha. I'd correct it, but that's too funny. I'm such a dolt. Sorry, friend...two and a half hours of sleep (end of term final exam/paper crunch time) means I probably should not be posting here today at all. At any rate, enjoy your first liturgy. I was an hour late to mine (car trouble + the person I was traveling with wanted to stop at the store to buy a cake for someone's birthday; Egyptians love cake), but they didn't seem to mind all that much. Someone called to ask where we were, as I had been planning for the day for weeks in conjunction with the community liaison, but once we got there, it was alright.

hey, enjoy it, brother!just speak to one or two people at the end.if everyone is shy, then take a coffee after the liturgy and sit down at the same table with some other people.make eye contact and smile a few times.after half an hour, the curiosity will overcome them and someone will then actually speak to you!(tip from my experience at an armenian coffee hour. don't think they had many non armenian visitors. they improved since and now host several wider orthodox events!)

i am sure someone will speak dutch, or if not then maybe english. just hang around until they warm to you.(some shy people are like little kids. to get to know little kids, i interact with them for a long time from a safe distance, and then after i get to play with them.)praying for you

if everyone is shy, then take a coffee after the liturgy and sit down at the same table with some other people.make eye contact and smile a few times.after half an hour, the curiosity will overcome them and someone will then actually speak to you!

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.