Doing his best Carl Pavano impression, Chan Ho Park suffered what was called a “sore glute” while getting his running in today. The Yankees canceled his planned live batting practice session this afternoon as a precaution, and he’ll throw tomorrow instead. Park, along with Mariano Rivera and Damaso Marte, should get into their first Spring Training game in a week or so.

When the Yankees sent Ian Kennedy to Arizona as part of the Curtis Granderson trade, the immediate thought was that the former first round pick would enjoy some immediate success in the senior circuit. Surely, the lack of a DH and the the three pitcher’s parks in the NL West would be kinder than the AL East, but as our own Joe P. mentions at FanGraphs, IPK’s fly ball tendencies don’t fit to well with Chase Field, where he’ll do the majority of his pitching in 2010 (presumably).

With Brandon Webb likely to start the season on the DL, the Diamondbacks currently have IPK penciled into their third starter’s spot. Yikes.

I’m inclined to say no, but Anthony McCarron of the Daily News makes a long and convincing case. For what it’s worth, Jeter is 60th all-time with 68.7 career WAR. Babe Ruth? Try 172.0 career WAR. I’d call that an uphill battle.

As prospect season comes to a close, the last set of rankings we’ll see are BP’s rankings of the thirty farm systems (subs. req’d). The bottom half was posted today, and the Yankees came in at number 26 overall. While the presence of Jesus Montero gives the team a bonafide superstar prospect, the knock against them is that none of their upper level pitchers have high ceilings, and they don’t have any position players close to contributing (besides Montero). They do note, however, that the team has several prospects in the lower minors that could take a big step forward this season.

McCarron must mean other than Babe Ruth. Ruth has a career OPS of 1.164 and a career OPS+ of 207. Derek Jeter’s not even in the same conversation.

Tom Zig

Can A-rod get into the conversation by the time his contract runs out?

or did he spend too many years elsewhere to not make it?

http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

A-Rod’s also not really in Babe Ruth’s league. It’s hard to play up how fantastic Ruth was, but he singlehandedly changed the way the game was play. His numbers were off the charts too. He out-homered entire teams a few seasons.

Templeton “Brendog” Peck

and he was the best starting pitcher in red sox history

H.W. Plainview

Give Casey Kelly like two more years.

http://www.thechuckknoblog.com/ JobaWockeeZ

I assume Brendog meant the non Casey Kelly division. He’s a given.

Tom Zig

so just insert the words “Modern Era” in between Best and Yankee and then it’s a competition between a couple of players.

going for the money is the least Yankee-like thing I have ever heard of.

http://none Michael

He went to Texas first. No interest in winning there, because no one ever wins there.

He just wanted the Money. If you want to say he was great last year, he certainly was, but the greatest Yankee ever he will never be.

And sorry guys, I’m not Jake. I don’t hate Arod. Not by a long shot. I just feel that the title of “Greatest Yankee Ever’ should belong to another group of guys. And I’m pretty sure all of you agree with me, but that you just like to dig. So enjoy.

You could argue who is #2 and who is #3 I’d say. Mantle had a longer career than Gehrig. Their differences are negligible. Mick played a premium position but Gehrig’s offensive contribution was better.

No matter who you select to be #2 or #3, they’re both still ahead of Jeter on the greatest Yankees of all time list.

A.D.

With Brandon Webb likely to start the season on the DL, the Diamondbacks currently have IPK penciled into their third starter’s spot. Yikes.

That’s not going to be good, I like IPK, but not as my 3rd starter.

http://none Michael

It’s going to be a longggg year in Zona.

YankeesJunkie

26 for the Yankees farm seems really low. It is not that the farm is depleted of all talent like in 2004.

Tom Zig

Anthony McCarron of the Daily News makes a long and convincing case

6 pages on the daily news website is more than just “long,” that’s like War and Peace-esque.

bexarama

ietc

I’m kind of excited for their Modern Day True Yankee Heroes (c) ™ thing, though, however silly it is.

http://www.thechuckknoblog.com/ JobaWockeeZ

*picks up IPK in fantasy*

With my pitching, a mediocre performance form him would be helpful. Stupid auto pick.

http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

With regards to IPK, Neyer predicted that he’d have a better ERA than the Yankees 5th starter. That’s it. While that may be true, it’s extremely shortsighted, I would have thought he would have spent some time explaining why, and how it doesn’t mean that IPK is better than Hughes/Joba, but he didn’t.

http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

I saw that Jeter “greatest Yankee” link in Buster “Cole Hamels demeanor has changed” Olney’s post this morning. I skipped it, I can’t even imagine how he can come to a conclusion like that.

http://none Michael

Greatest Yankee ever is just plain nuts. Greatest of his generation. Sure. Jeter, and Rivera.

http://www.thechuckknoblog.com/ JobaWockeeZ

Wait you’d advocate Mo over A-Rod for the Greatest Yankee of All Time?

Arod has been great as of late with us, but if his career were to end today, who would he go into the HOF as? A Mariner, a Ranger or a Yankee?

His career is not ending today, though, so that’s a bit of a red herring.

It’s also moot: If it ended today, he’d have 7 years as a Mariner and 6 as a Yankee, with his greatest successes (a title, two MVP’s, his most productive seasons statistically) all in pinstripes. He’d go in a Yankee if his career ended today.

The next 8 years cements it.

Michael

It’s intended to be hypothetical. I’m well aware that his career isn’t ending today. That’s why I said if.

So, let me get this straight, the way you’re explaining your point is to mention Mariano’s failures in October?

No. The way I’m explaining my point is this:

The bottom line is, the gap between Mo and replacement closers is much smaller than the gap between ARod and replacement third baseman. MUCH.

Mo made crucial saves in 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2009 that helped us win the title. He also blew crucial saves in 1997, 2001, and 2004 that prevented us from winning a title. The point of mentioning that is that Mo has attained a mythical status where he seemingly never does anything wrong in the postseason (and thus, he “won” titles for us that we wouldn’t have won without him) when the reality is that he merely frequently doesn’t do things wrong in the postseason.

And other closers blow more saves than he does, but that doesn’t mean that the gap between Mo and some other non-Mo closer is a difference between a playoff win and a playoff loss. It’s just not that simple.

Mo’s save success rate isn’t 100% and other closer’s success rate isn’t 0%. It’s more like 95% vs. 85%. Do I think we would have won fewer titles if Mo wasn’t our closer? Yeah, probably. Would we have won no titles at all over the past two decades if Mo wasn’t our closer? No, not remotely. These Yankee teams were pimpshit. They would have won rings even without Mo. Fewer, perhaps, but they still would have won.

Now, do the other part of it: how many MORE rings would this team have won with ARod on it instead of Brosius/Ventura/Boone? Hmmm…

http://None Michael

You can’t say that we would have win anything in 97. We were the Wild Card and therefore lucky to have made it at all.

Mo hasn’t been perfect in October, but then again, no one in the history of baseball has been perfect.

You are straying from the argument. Who is the “greater” Yankee?

And if you have the unfiltered to question one the best Yankee post season performers of all time, isn’t it appropriate to mention one of the worst?

king of fruitless hypotheticals

except he’s not.

the huge difficulty in being a pitcher is amplified as a closer–your limited appearances become even more limited.

if arod plays 150 games, that’s probably 1400 innings. at best Mo is involved in 300 innings (60-70 in the game, another 2X that in their heads).

its just not possible.

you sound like a subjective guy instead of a stats guy, so look at it this way:
Arod wins a gold glove, season mvp, hits a couple walk-offs, hits 3 hr in the series including the game seven winner.

He’s been averaging about 6.3 WAR per year in pinstripes. If you give him the 8 more years of his contract here at, say, 75% of his total yearly average production (just my artificial, non-specific degradation of his production levels due to age/decline as he enters his 40s; feel free to quibble with it or ignore it altogether), that’s 8 x 4.75 = 38.0 additional WAR.

That brings his Yankee tenure up to 76.0 and his career up to 137, putting him just shy of Hank Aaron for #5 all time.

In any event, it’s probably unlikely that either ARod (Yankee years only) or Jeter (entire career) pass Ruth, Mantle, or Gehrig for top three Yankees of all time.

YankeesJunkie

There is no way Jeter or A-Rod could pass. However, if A-Rod has four or five more years of strong performance like he has the previous five years he could pass Hank Aaron.

Johan Iz My Brohan

Assuming most of the Yankees high ceiling prospects in the minors improve well over the next two seasons, in addition to the 2010 and 2011 draft, where would the Yankees be on the organizational rankings? 10-15?

YankeesJunkie

I think the big pointer at the Yankees farm system is that outside of Montero the Yankees don’t have any high end players that project to be #1-#3 starters or everyday players. However, if guys in the lower levels start producing and the Yankees continue to draft well the farm could be restocked with the next two years and be a top 15 farm.

http://www.yfsf.org AndrewYF

Farm rankings mean very, very little. Just look at the Baseball America Red Sox farm system rankings when they had Lester, Youkilis, and Hanley in their system. They were ranked near the ass-end of the league.

Farm system rankings, unfortunately, are much more about recent production than projected future performance. The Yankees’ farm system hasn’t really produced all that much over recent years. Cano, Wang, and that’s about it in terms of successful, embedded major leaguers. Meanwhile, the Red Sox farm system produced Lester, Pedroia, Papelbon, Youkilis, Hanley (somewhat), so they must be doing something right, yeah? But in the late 90s, all the Red Sox really produced was Nomar, so the thinking back then was probably that Youkilis, Hanley, and Lester would likely amount to nothing.

It’s best just to ignore the actual rankings, and not even try to rank systems (it will more likely than not turn out to be worthless analysis) and just read the scouting reports.

Hughesus Christo

How the eff would ARod be in the conversation when he has played the majority of his career for other teams?

Just a fact to throw at fans who bring up Rizzuto when Rice is mentioned as the new low bar of the HOF.

king of fruitless hypotheticals

holy crap. Arod’s the highest active player (not including ricky henderson), and he’s still nowhere close. it’ll take him another 7 years…wow.

Hughesus Christo

He will still have played ~40% of his career in Texas and Seattle. That’s a DQ in my book. Great player for the team, yes. “Greatest Yankee” for someone who was here for just over half of his career is preposterous.

As for the McCarron article, I skimmed and see that he’s using the “greater” definition of the title, including media presence and all that. Jeter has to on the next tier down from Ruth/Gehrig/Mantle/DiMaggio by any definition.

http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

To a point I see what you are saying, but 14 years is 14 years. Just because he’s going to have a ridiculously long career, doesn’t mean he’s not in the conversation among greatest Yankees of all time.

14 years of A-Rod*>>>>>>16 years of Bernie who didn’t play anywhere else.

Joe D also missed his prime years do to WWII. His numbers would have been better if he played his age 28, 29 and 30 seasons. He missed his prime productions years. Would he have had a shot at 500HR? No, probably not, but they would still have been better than they are (which are still very good!).

If the 60% of ARod’s Yankee career is better than 100% of another career, then ARod is clearly better.

However, 60% of ARod’s career >>>>>>>>> 100% of Joe DiMaggio’s career is wrong. ARod’s career wOBA is .412 (and roughly the same for his Yankee career), while DiMaggio’s is .439 for his 13 year career. Even assuming no regression by ARod (and no improvement) Joe DiMaggio will outhit ARod in ARods likely 14 year Yankee career. Add in the fact Joe DiMaggio was an excellent CF (by all reports) and ARod is an average 3B. The DiMaggio will be better than Rodriguez for their Yankee careers.

Can ARod’s Yankee years catch DiMaggio? With a 38.0 WAR in 6 years so far and 8 years left on his contract (DiMaggio’s at 83.4), it’s a tall order, sure, but I wouldn’t say he has “no shot” of passing DiMaggio.

Meh, then the whole thing is going to be one long tire-salesman-themed digression, and we won’t learn a thing.

http://mystiqueandaura.com/ JMK the Overshare’s Mystique and Aura

Exactly. I do fake stories and occasionally sprinkle in disgusting personal anecdotes. I lack the mental capacity to extrapolate data and critically analyze its findings.

Now, a post about Iverson shotgunning Cristal with Shawn Kemp’s 462 kids is more up my alley.

Leave the real stuff to people with higher-level reasoning skills.

king of fruitless hypotheticals

i’d like to hear that same guy talk about jeter and the hit record.

Hughesus Christo

I’m of the opinion that you simply could not be the “Greatest Yankee Ever” if you only spent 58% of your career with the franchise. This isn’t like the Diamondbacks or something. The franchise has 44 HoFs, 27 World Championships and had arguably fielded 3-4 of the 10 greatest players of all time. We can also add that Rodriguez’s best stretches of play haven’t even been with the Yankees.

This is a ridiculous discussion.

p.s. – Joe Dimaggio was putting up 7+ WARs consistently and then had to go to WW2 for three years, fyi

I’m of the opinion that you simply could not be the “Greatest Yankee Ever” if you only spent 58% of your career with the franchise. This isn’t like the Diamondbacks or something.

Is Babe Ruth thus also not in contention for the title of “Greatest Yankee Ever”?

Ruth spent 15 of his 22 big league seasons in pinstripes. That’s 68.1%.

If he plays out his contract and then retires, ARod will have spent 14 of his 24 big league seasons in pinstripes. That’s 58.3%.

58.3% is unacceptable, but 68.1% is just peachy? That seems, to borrow an alex gonzalez meme, “arbitrary”.

Zack

Borrow another meme and call it a different era.

Hughesus Christo

I responded to this below, but I also did ARod the service of assuming he’s going to hit at modern day levels until he’s 44. You’re blowing up Ruth’s non-Yankee service time by including seasons he served primarily as a pitcher or manager/owner/pro hooker tester.

You’re blowing up Ruth’s non-Yankee service time by including seasons he served primarily as a pitcher or manager/owner/pro hooker tester.

Serving as a pitcher counts as part of his MLB career record. Ruthophiles love to quote his dominance on the hill as one of his bonafides making him better than other all-time greats; you don’t thus get to not count it when it suits your argument.

Also, Babe Ruth’s Boston Braves year still counts, but even if you eliminate it, you’re still only changing the percentages slightly (from 68.1% to 71.4%). It hasn’t changed the argument: Babe Ruth didn’t play his whole career with the Yankees. He only played a portion of it with the Yankees.

king of fruitless hypotheticals

…Ruth is not only the best Yankee ever, I bet he’s the best Red Sock ever (non-frozen head division).

It’s a fantasy ranking, so it’s worse than useless for non-fantasy purposes.

YankeesJunkie

I really find it hard to say that Hughes is going to win the #5 role at this point. It is way to early and Joba was sick his first start and he still got his FB up to 93. I am still intrigued by this race and it should be a good one all the way through. Also, don’t discount a long shot like Aceves who threw 4 no hit innings today. Not a big deal at all, but just something to keep looking at.

Can I just take a minute to appreciate this line?:These links have a lower Spring Training ERA than Jon Albaladejo … combined.
Heh. Thank you.

Tank Foster

Let’s not forget that Ruth’s dominating was short-lived. Within a few years of his starting the homerun thing, many players in the league put up numbers that were close to and occasionally better than Ruth’s. He dominated for a few years because he was doing something nobody else was trying to do…it wasn’t that there weren’t other players capable of it.

Also, he played in an era when some of the best players in the country were banned from MLB (negro league players), and in general the talent pool for MLB players was much, much smaller than today. In this environment, it’s much easier to build career WAR values that are very high.

If Ruth played today, he’d be an elite slugger, and yeah one of or the best players in baseball. But he wouldn’t dominate the way he did in 1920-1923.

Alex Rodriguez is most definitely in Ruth’s league. So was Mantle. Jeter? No, although if he continues to defy age I guess he could put up some incredible career numbers. Jeter might be more like a modern day Eddie Collins…

http://mystiqueandaura.com Steve H

I think you’re underselling Ruth’s dominance. He led the league in HR’s every year from 1926-1931 and was still hitting more HR’s than several teams at that point. In Ruth’s famous 1927, the Red Sox hit 28 HR’s. In 1931 Ruth hit 46 HR’s, the Red Sox hit 37.

Tank Foster

Maybe a slight undersell….but the point is, others could do it, and did. Hornsby hit 42 homers in 1922, which was more than several other entire teams. Gehrig hit 46 in 1927, as I’m sure you know…and by the 1930s, 50 homers was commonplace.

I think some people look at Ruth’s numbers relative to the league in the 1920s and assume that in today’s environment he’d be similarly dominant. My point was that I don’t think he would.

It’s very hard to look at career numbers for baseball players and not conclude that Babe Ruth was the best ballplayer ever. I’m not saying he isn’t.

But I think many stars in many eras are very close to him in performance, including many of todays’ stars.

Ruth benefited from several circumstances which make his star seem to shine a bit brighter than it really is.