I have searched this whole subforum for mentions of 'bankrupt,' 'broke,' etc. and this is the first instance of it.

I'm glad you feel that you are trying to do right by us, but to be clear, you aren't doing us a favour, you are fulfilling an obligation.

In 'Plugged In' you mention investing money in building a computer for some friends; maybe that ought to go to this work instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApoC_101

I understand your frustration, but that first bit is not correct. To be perfectly clear: the business had thousands of dollars of pre purchases from paying customers, and even more from investors including myself, that business is now essentially bankrupt, and I'm taking the initiative to look after those customers who don't have their product (most of them do have it). The machinery I'm selling to pay off more parts for these customers, is my personal machinery, at this point I am sacrificing just about everything I own to look after you guys. It's my prerogative to do that, and as quickly as possible so I don't have to hear anymore of this.

That computer is 90% donated parts and the stuff we did buy, was split costs. I also buy groceries with my paycheck money, guess that should go out the window too? There is no obligation for me besides my personal integrity to deliver my hard work, although with the right amount of convincing I can make an exception for some people.

And yea, bankruptcy isn't a term to be used lightly, I have avoided it because I considered alternatives. It's also another headache for me to deal with after this is cleaned up, but it will provide me with a fair sense of closure.

Since he has a proper business, bankruptcy is an option. That would wipe out all obligations with both delivering product as well as financial debts of the company.

However, I think Josh is trying to do what he can to avoid not delivering product. What he did was a pretty big undertaking, and I'm not surprized at the bumps he ran into, but I can sit on the sidelines and applaud the efforts he is making. He could have just disappeared at the first sign of trouble had had a lot of money and a very low reputation. I see him as trying to do the opposite, painful as it might be.

I think that depends on what sort of debt reorganization or bankruptcy any company is applying for.

I am not a restructuring guy nor do I know anything about Canada law but debt can be impaired if its proven the business is of no value or lacks value to cover its outstandings. In certain cases the debt holders can take over the company and become owners. They can choose to manage the business or if there is going to be a cash burn, liquidate assets to recover some of its investment.

If there is significant value, debt can be reinstated.

The question is are pre-order orders considered debt? Maybe an unsecured liability.

Are you really comparing those two things? The first unofficial rule of personal debt is 'pay yourself' to purchase essentials. The rest should service your external obligations. In this case, I would hope that means us.

You enjoy a lot of goodwill from people here and I am willing to give you further benefit of doubt, but don't squander it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApoC_101

That computer is 90% donated parts and the stuff we did buy, was split costs. I also buy groceries with my paycheck money, guess that should go out the window too? There is no obligation for me besides my personal integrity to deliver my hard work, although with the right amount of convincing I can make an exception for some people.

And yea, bankruptcy isn't a term to be used lightly, I have avoided it because I considered alternatives. It's also another headache for me to deal with after this is cleaned up, but it will provide me with a fair sense of closure.

I sincerely hope you do indeed feel obligated to provide the goods the I and others paid for.

Wasn't very clear there... What I mean to say is that my personal integrity is my obligation to deliver, nothing to do with the business at this point, hence my willingness to pay out of pocket for getting it all done. Also I feel mostly responsible for the business woes so it's only fair to clean up the mess and save face somewhat.

I understand your frustration, but that first bit is not correct. To be perfectly clear: the business had thousands of dollars of pre purchases from paying customers, and even more from investors including myself, that business is now essentially bankrupt, and I'm taking the initiative to look after those customers who don't have their product (most of them do have it). The machinery I'm selling to pay off more parts for these customers, is my personal machinery, at this point I am sacrificing just about everything I own to look after you guys. It's my prerogative to do that, and as quickly as possible so I don't have to hear anymore of this.

Some might consider this the barest minimum duty on the part of an upstanding businessman. Essentially bankrupt is not bankrupt, so until you admit failure and actually declare your ship sunk, all debts denied, then patting yourself on the back and talking about your "prerogative" is pretty revealing about your sense of business ethic.

I have no dog in this fight. (I don't do business with Canadians as a rule, not a prejudice). However, as a mod here who regularly reviews the complaints received from members here, your handling of your "business" is well known to the mod staff. It is the common occurrence of such failures in our sport that required our forum rule with respect to dealing with Internet strangers in other countries.