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OK, so then they really need to show us the resources that the AI actually has. Now that I'm aware the AI won't trade for resources it already has, this all makes sense - but there is absolutely zero indication in the game, the UI, anywhere other than CivFanatics forums and patch notes, etc., that this is what is going on. It just appears that the AI is acting belligerent and irrational for no reason, which is frustrating if you don't know why it's happening.

I've noticed that if I give an advantageous deal to a declared friend they frequently give me an even better deal a couple turns later. It's not that they aren't willing to do business, you just have to break the ice first.

I've noticed that if I give an advantageous deal to a declared friend they frequently give me an even better deal a couple turns later. It's not that they aren't willing to do business, you just have to break the ice first.

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Yeah, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I've never seen the AI offer laughably lopsided deals like this thread posits. If they don't hate you and you're offering something that actually has value to them they're going to compensate you fairly. When they want a duplicate strategic or luxury resource they make totally reasonable proposals. If you want something of theirs that isn't a duplicate or they don't like you, you're going to overpay for it.

The Better Deals (or Better Trade Deals) mod will show you what the AI is getting from their own trading/Suzerain status, plus I believe what you've already traded to them. No wasting time! I can't imagine playing VI w/o it, or w/o Better Trade Screen (routes). Both work great in R&F.

All I'm saying is, when we split the cheque three ways, the steak-eater picks the pocket of the salad-man.

Yup, but I am not sure what you are missing, persistence?
Every game I can trade lux for lux... but not initially, there seems to be some timer on this.
A denounced person will give you rubbish normally but when desperate will give you lots.
Trade with the weak and those at war and you will do better.

So for example I meet Tomyris I would expect to get on average 6 GPT for a lux but not be able to trade lux for lux until 30 turns later. If she denounced me she will typically only offer 1-10 Gold for a lux. Trading with denounced makes a difference.

Give them a favourable trade like in the Tomyris example earlier amd they will give you one back.

Here is the current worth/cost chart for diplomacy. Look at the proposed trade line for denounced. Also you can see all others are balanced as per this chart... it does not mean there are not rules other places but I see little difference between an unfriendly and allied trade

Wow, are you saying that an AI likes you better if you accept a deal that they propose vs you proposing an identical deal? If so, I had no idea. I almost always turned down AIs when they offered me deals because I tried shopping around to get the best deal.

Edit: although now that I look at the chart closely it looks like trade deals wouldn't really be affected by who approaches who first.

I do trading like in real life. If I don't like the deal I reject it, and I find later on they'll sometimes come to the party. I have no idea what is going on under the hood; but from my experience it seems like the AI does adjust somewhat to rejection.

One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
- Sir Winston Churchill

I really wish they had some other value on "demand tribute" other than them just not liking you. Like, maybe they could factor in the relative size of our militaries before they start threatening me? I really hate in my warmongery games having to refuse a different AI's demand for tribute every single turn.

I really hate in my warmongery games having to refuse a different AI's demand for tribute every single turn.

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Yes its rather silly, especially as the AI will never accept demands unless you have an army on their border. The same rule should really apply to them making demands, do not bother unless you are threatening.

Yeah it's never the most threatening civs who make demands, it's always the ones at the very bottom of the military scoreboard who are also like three eras behind in tech... like seriously? I could wipe you out by looking at you and you're going to get pissy with me??