I studied with a teacher from Bogar's tradition (it's called Tamil Siddhar Tradition)...I can tell you that it's very powerful...yet very simple to learn. All you have to do is invest time and effort and you'll get the results.

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I studied with a teacher from Bogar's tradition (it's called Tamil Siddhar Tradition)...I can tell you that it's very powerful...yet very simple to learn. All you have to do is invest time and effort and you'll get the results.

Nice. Thanks for the info.

Can you say a bit about how the Tamil Siddhar's explain the process, if possible in one post? Also, by "powerful," what do you mean, please? Thanks...

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Can you say a bit about how the Tamil Siddhar's explain the process, if possible in one post? Also, by "powerful," what do you mean, please? Thanks...

There's a lot of material out regarding the Tamil Siddhars. I can only share some aspects of what I learnt. The following is about my teacher:

The technique involves a purification process called Spinal purification followed by Hatha Yoga asanas in a specific sequence (which he varies for different students with different needs). Depending on the readiness of the student he introduces pranayama practice (which is very different from any others I have learnt) which involves holding specific mudras in vajrasana, starting with first only rechaka and puraka with a special glottis control that he teaches the students. Eventually he introduces kumbhaka in the pranayama process and then after some more time introduces kapalabhati, bhastrika etc. He allows increasing duration of each cycle gradually...I was at a stage of doing kumbhaka for 40s per cycle at one point. He suggests traditional 1:4:2 ratio for celibates and 1:2:4 ratio for householders.<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">He also initiates students into Arupa Dhyana (or Formless meditation). <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">I found the Asana sequences and the method he uses very very powerful, along with the pranayama. It activates the kundalini energy very quickly but without the side-effects we see advertised on various media (negative mostly). I cannot share more than this at the moment.

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Bhogar is indeed a very popular semi-mythical figure in Southern India, his fame extending all the way to Sri Lanka and beyond. Bhoganatha is considered to be a Mahasiddha. It is said that Bhoganatha's guru Kalagninatha was Chinese by birth and had settled in Southern India when he attained immortality. He supposedly instructed Bhoganatha to teach the Chinese and his encounters with the Chinese is captured in an old work, Saptakanda. The remarkable similarity of Tamil Siddhas represented by Bhoganatha - which includes Yin and Yang concepts (Shakti and Shiva), emphasis on breath, alchemy, herbs etc. may have triggered off a Lao Tsu - Bhoganatha connection. It is also pointed out that his friend, a Siddha named Ramadeva, traveled to Arabia and was known as Yacob.

In Southern India, there is a shrine of Kumara (the son of Shiva and Shakti, who was absorbed into Buddhism as Majushri) at Palani, where Bhoganatha is said to have installed an idol made of Navapashana (nine poisons).

The tale states that 81 normally poisonous substances including mercury were gathered into groups of nine and the nine mixtures combined alchemically to form a substance named Navapashana. This idol made of Navapashana is said to exhibit several miraculous properties. For example, the milk that is poured over the idol during rituals stays fresh for several days even in the immense heat of Southern India. The concept of Navapashana is of significance as the Tamil Siddhas are associated with Kayakalpa (rejuvenation of the body) and Immortality like the Taoists.

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By the way, yin and yang are not the same as Shiva and Shakti. It doesn't translate like that. Yin and yang are negative and positive poles, duality. Siva and Shakti are both One but it's passive and dynamic principles.

Not same, similar, esp the dualistic Saiddhantika interpretation of Polarity if not the monistic Kasmiri Shaivite

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Bhogar is indeed a very popular semi-mythical figure in Southern India, his fame extending all the way to Sri Lanka and beyond. Bhoganatha is considered to be a Mahasiddha. It is said that Bhoganatha's guru Kalagninatha was Chinese by birth and had settled in Southern India when he attained immortality. He supposedly instructed Bhoganatha to teach the Chinese and his encounters with the Chinese is captured in an old work, Saptakanda. The remarkable similarity of Tamil Siddhas represented by Bhoganatha - which includes Yin and Yang concepts (Shakti and Shiva), emphasis on breath, alchemy, herbs etc. may have triggered off a Lao Tsu - Bhoganatha connection. It is also pointed out that his friend, a Siddha named Ramadeva, traveled to Arabia and was known as Yacob.

In Southern India, there is a shrine of Kumara (the son of Shiva and Shakti, who was absorbed into Buddhism as Majushri) at Palani, where Bhoganatha is said to have installed an idol made of Navapashana (nine poisons).

The tale states that 81 normally poisonous substances including mercury were gathered into groups of nine and the nine mixtures combined alchemically to form a substance named Navapashana. This idol made of Navapashana is said to exhibit several miraculous properties. For example, the milk that is poured over the idol during rituals stays fresh for several days even in the immense heat of Southern India. The concept of Navapashana is of significance as the Tamil Siddhas are associated with Kayakalpa (rejuvenation of the body) and Immortality like the Taoists.

A fascinating post - I have been interested in Tamil Siddhas, their practice of kayasadhana and notions of immortality for quite some time.

Is the text Saptakanda that you are mentioning above in Tamil or Sanskrit? Is it still preserved in its entirety?

You mentioned the connection between Daoists and Tamil Siddhas. It would be interesting to see if there is any

common ground between the "Rainbow Body of Great Transference" (which is - and this must be emphasized - different from the phenomenon where a high-level practitioner dissolves his body at the time of death), the Oli Rupam of the Tamil Siddhas and the various stages of immortality as mentioned in Chinese Daoism (e.g. guixian 鬼仙, dixian 地仙, renxian 人仙, etc.).

As always there is a problem, because Dzogchen is Buddhist and one cannot avoid the importance of view or drsti. And this consequently demands the acceptance of the anatman doctrine, pratityasamutpada, etc. On the other hand the Bon-pos also had many high realized Dzogchen-pas. The question now is to what degree are the Bon-pos accepting the anatman doctrine, pratityasamutpada, etc.

Perhaps these manifestations are only similar at the surface, but in essence they are radically different.

I would really like to hear some of your (and other members') thoughts on this subject.

Receiving shaktipat is a significant occasion on the path of a spiritual seeker. He or she becomes an initiated student in the particular master lineage, from which onwards, the student and the guru or an acharya authorized by the satguru, work together so that the student might also attain self-realization. It is mutual commitment. This may take several incarnations. However, self-realization is possible for everyone in these very bodies. Here yogic practices come into the picture. In Siva Yoga we are talking mainly of the practice of The Three Divivine Qualities (3DQs).

However, the AYP point of view is that you don't need a guru and you don't need shaktipat.

Further, if your lineage is from Babaji, then you must have a main goal in your practices to penetrate the star, as this is one of the main goals in Yogananda's Kriya Yoga. Yet, in AYP, you don't do anything with the star, it is regarded as scenery. How can that be?

And the Siddhaloka astral plane that you visit would be ignored at AYP. It is just scenery.

In Yogananda's Kriya Yoga, the AUM meditation as well as the Hong Sau technique use sambhavi. I haven't studied the Babaji practices, nor do I know if they are readily available to read on your site, but I would assume that it may be similar. Yet, in AYP, the Deep Meditation starts out as TM meditation and then morphs into something else, but there is never any instruction to maintain sambhavi during meditation. Is it safe to mix TM with customized kriya practices?

Likewise, in AYP's spinal breathing, there is no mention of chanting or repeating "AUM" while one traces the spinal nerve. According to the lesssons from SRF, the AUM activates the practice.

Have you ever examined the AYP practices closely? On what basis are you recommending AYP?

Why do you keep recommending AYP? Is it because you have posted numerous links on the AYP forum to your website in Finland and you are trying to get free advertising?

I'm curious because your recommendations seem kind of foolish to me, that you are recommending something you actually don't know anything about and is at odds with the lineage you are supporting..

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a most difficult siddha is the ability to truly "turn the other cheek" in the fullest meaning of the saying, very few have such depth of power, wisdom, and centered beingness. (a.k.a. as master saints)

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a most difficult siddha is the ability to truly "turn the other cheek" in the fullest meaning of the saying, very few have such depth of power, wisdom, and centered beingness. (a.k.a. as master saints)

Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:18 PM

...and if anybody wants to pick up on the tangent brought up in post 16 (imo it being an important one along these lines) and run with it I'm listening and welcome same...

Hi 3Bob

Once upon a time, I was walking up a path on the mountain. It was very dark but the sky was clear and the stars were sparkly.

As I slowly made my way up the path towards the summit, suddenly, I fell into a deep pit just on the side of the path. As I fell in, I hit my head and passed out.

When I came to I looked around. The pit was very deep and the walls were very steep. The smell was very bad, almost unbearable.

I screamed at the top of my lungs, "HEEEELLLLLPPPPP!!!", and much to my surprise, other voices sounded off! "Quiet! You're disturbing our inner silence". There were other people in the pit!

I said "You are in a pit. How long have you been here? You are trapped here and you don't realize it. Why don't you try to get out?"

A voice replied: "Our master told us that we have to stay in the pit and perform specific practices so that we may become enlightened"

I said "But don't you want to get out of the pit? Look up, don't you see the stars above in the clear sky?"

Another voice spoke out "That is just scenery. We don't do anything with the stars, we just look at them at night time".

Then I pulled out my iphone and started up a youtube video of a well-known guru, Papaji, who had granted someone a taste of enlightenment. The others in the pit watched the video for a while and then shouted out "We don't believe in gurus and we were told not to depend on anyone else except our practices. Our scientific practices will make us enlightened."

After a few days of being trapped in the pit, I too started doing the practices. I stayed in the pit for four years, until gradually I started to realize that there was something wrong with the practices. They weren't producing the results the others in the pit had promised. The theory behind the practices was strange. Some of the other people in the pit claimed that through the practices they had become enlightened. Yet, they were still in the pit; they could not climb out, they could not point to any specific practice and their egos were highly developed. And they took pride in proclaiming their accomplishments and were very happy to be in the pit.

I questioned the practices, why they were not the classic Yoga practices.. How can you mix TM with Kriya Yoga and expect it to work? Is it really true that enlightenment is the blending of ecstatic conductivity and inner silence, when Buddha said that suffering is caused by clinging and aversion?

The voices responded "Don't think about it. Don't analyze. There is no place here for wisdom, knowledge, or intelligence. Just do the practices. The practices will set you free."

Well, that was enough of that. At odds with the other people in the pit, they combined their efforts and evicted me from the pit. They threw me right out and I landed on that mountain path once again. It was night time and the sky was clear. The stars sparkled and the moon was full. I could clearly see the path upwards. I could also see the rather large outhouse that someone had pushed down the mountain side.

Now, I ask you, 3bob, When you come accross a pit along the path what do you do? I will make this a multiple choice to make it easy:

1) Ask its forgiveness and turn the other cheek?

2) Put up a sign warning other mountain climbers of the danger?

3) Try to rescue the people who have fallen into the pit and then put up a sign?

4) Try to rescue the people who have fallen into the pit and then fill in the pit so that nobody else ever falls into it?

5) Ignore the experience and keep climbing up the mountain, knowing full well that other climbers would inevitably fall into the pit.

6) All of the above

7) None of the above

8) Perhaps some of the above but with conditions

I hope you enjoyed my bed time story..

I will leave you with a Buddhist rendition of 'turning the other cheek'.

Buddha was well known for his ability to respond to evil with good.

And there was a man that knew about this reputation and he traveled miles and miles to test Buddha.

When he got in Buddha’s presence he verbally abused him, he insulted and offended him.

Buddha was unmoved.

He simply turned to the man and said: ‘ May I ask you a question?’

The man agreed and said: ‘ Well what?’

Buddha: ‘ When someone offers you a gift and you decline to accept it, to whom then does it belong?’

Man: ‘ Well then it belongs to the person who offered it.’

Buddha smiled: ‘That is correct.’

Buddha: So if I decline to accept your abuse, does it not then still belong to you?

The man was speechless and left.

TI

Edited October 18, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

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I'm not sure how the context of your post relates to what I brought up? The Christain related saying I brought up does have some overlap with Vedanta namely as an aspect of the Grace of Sat Guru, which is the power of Spirit not just mind.

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I prefer option 2 when I come across a pit like the one you've described. If I'd known that AYP was the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's lineage, I wouldn't have gone anytwhere near it and I'd have been extremely grateful for that warning myself.

Nor woud I have gone anywhere near it if I'd known that it was a totalitarian regime, which denies people the right to free speech, so I'd have been similarly grateful for that warning too.

(And what's with all the Biblical quotes? I thought this was the Vedanta discussion. Doesn't Christianity belongs in General Discussion (or Off-Topic) .)

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An interesting footnote in the Hui Ming Jing, written by Liu Huayang, part namesake of the Wu-Liu Pai school of Taoism (the same school of Zhao Bichen, author of "Taoist Yoga").

In the preface to this text, written in 1795, it is said:

"How could one think that Huayang is inferior to the disciple of the Buddha, Kasyapa, who lived in the world seven hundred years before he met the World-Honored One, or to the monk Baozhang, who lived in the world one thousand seven hundred and twelve years before he met Boddhidharma?"

The footnote states: "Baozhang Heshang, an Indian monk said to arrive in China between the Wei (220-265 CE) and Jin (265 - 420 CE) dynasties, who is then said to have died in 675 CE"

Seems this may refer to a character from Journey to the West, but it also seems to line up with the fantastic histories of Bogar:

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Can't say I know anything about this person/school... the term siddha or name usage of same is not the most important point and could be misinterpreted just like the use of the term yogi, master, and even swami may not always conform to the

"traditional Hindu" meanings of such titles which some people may have or use. Thus without further study of the subject matter/school I could not claim that siddhas are being posited over the goal of enlightenment by this person.