Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

besleybean wrote:

I have sympathy for her, even though she did shoot my beloved Sherlock.But he survived and went on to muder somebody.So it seems a tad unfair to hold any grudge against Mary.

Though, his reasons for it were different. He basically saved Mary and John-- (and probably a whole lot of other people)-- Mary shot Sherlock in order to get what she wanted--she wanted to be able to keep lying to John, and have him never find out the truth about her past.

There's a big, big difference there in motivation. I still maintain that there is this wishful-thinking-romance-novel sort of logic here, that whatever is necessary-- even shooting and killing someone (or even just gravely injuring them) is justifiable if it's to preserve a love relationship. If that's what the writers wanted us to take away from this, I think it's pretty cynical, and reflects badly on women-- and it's a horrible example to set for young girls.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Mary's a great character, although I'm not sure I actually have any sympathy for her per say...Sympathy would be the wrong word to describe it. She does genuinely seem to love John but you shouldn't lie to someone you love anyway, that's sort of the bottom line of it, for me. If she really believed Sherlock's theory that John loves danger and dangerous people and that's why he chose her, then she could have sat him down a long long time ago and gently explained all about her past and come clean. I'm sure he would have had a much better reaction and would definitely not have dumped her or anything.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I agree with you. IMO one problem with the ongoing Mary discussion is that two things often get mixed up: personally not liking Mary the character for what she does to Sherlock and John versus not liking Mary as a character created by Moftiss. Two fundamentally different things. I never liked Moriarty as a "person" but he is a great character. And something like that, albeit on a somewhat smaller scale, goes for Mary. The only thing I cannot do is like her for the things she does and easily accept them.

------------------------------"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Who says that she was aware of it before Sherlock pointed it out? There are two liars in the relationship, who are both lying to themselves also. Mary's lie is the bigger one, but in a way, they both pretend to be something they aren't.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

besleybean wrote:

I have sympathy for her, even though she did shoot my beloved Sherlock.But he survived and went on to muder somebody.So it seems a tad unfair to hold any grudge against Mary.

Though, his reasons for it were different. He basically saved Mary and John-- (and probably a whole lot of other people)-- Mary shot Sherlock in order to get what she wanted--she wanted to be able to keep lying to John, and have him never find out the truth about her past.

There's a big, big difference there in motivation. I still maintain that there is this wishful-thinking-romance-novel sort of logic here, that whatever is necessary-- even shooting and killing someone (or even just gravely injuring them) is justifiable if it's to preserve a love relationship. If that's what the writers wanted us to take away from this, I think it's pretty cynical, and reflects badly on women-- and it's a horrible example to set for young girls.

Yes; I think this is a point which is extremely important, and can't be emphasised enough. Shooting someone so your husband won't find out that you have lied to him from first to last is a fundamentally selfish action, and cannot be excused under the heading 'but she did it because she loved her husband'.

It's an appalling way to look at the world, and I really don't think that Moftiss want to leave us with that take home message; after all, what's next? If Mary's enemies come after her, where do we draw the line at what is or is not morally acceptable behaviour in such circumstances? Does John's 'privilege' extend to killing them, or to help her kill them, or just help her hide the bodies?

There is nothing that Mary either does or says to suggest that she would see anything wrong with shooting yet more people if they got between her and what she wanted; Moffat acknowledged this when he said that she had to be outed because the show would otherwise have consisted of a lethal killer nurse wandering around shooting anybody she thought might possibly threaten John and Sherlock.

In choosing to out her by showing us her shooting Sherlock, Moftiss framed it in such a way that we cannot gloss over it; she doesn't put a bullet into CAM, who is, after all, the villain. She puts a bullet into Sherlock, who is far from being an angel, but is on the side of the angels, instead...

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

But I have been wondering... The scene in 221B where Sherlock called the ambulance and made the comment about it taking 8 minutes for a London ambulance to arrive.

The paramedic says that they were told there had been a shooting.

Watching TV shows about ambulances here they often made a point to show that the ambulance has to wait for police to clear and secure the scene in case of violent acts before the paramedics can show up.

So... where's the police?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Don't talk out loud, you lower the IQ of the whole street!""Oh Watson. Nothing made me... I made me""Luuuuurve Ginger Nuts"

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I imagine in the UK, the police would come to a shooting too. In my experience, paramedics are sent ahead of the ambulance too - the paramedics can assess and start treatment before the ambulance arrives.

But this is fictional, and the the only way I can get my head round it is to think of it as a sort of alternative "fantasy" universe, where things happen differently. I believe that the "eight minutes" is actually a standard - ideally most life-threatening situations are supposed to get an ambulance response within eight minutes. It's not the "time and ambulance will take to arrive" - obviously that will vary and depend on different factors. I think the eight minutes has just been used as a plot point, and only "works" in the Sherlock universe.

Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Hmmm, according to Steven Moffat Mary absolutely adores Sherlock... so the shooting was actually an act of adoration and such acts are not investigated by police.

(That would also explain while Lestrade nor Mycroft seem concerned about Sherlock being shot....)

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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?