The Druid Grove

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I am curious...Iolo Morganwg forged the Druid prayer and the Awen symbol. Why are they still in use today? I see there is another post about the Druid prayer as well, however I have been looking into history and origin and see that Iolo was a collector of ancient wisdom but forged and altered a great deal of it...this of course is disheartening. I like that OBOD acknowledges it's roots and doesn't make things up and then claim it's from another source.

I am curious...Iolo Morganwg forged the Druid prayer and the Awen symbol. Why are they still in use today?

They're meaningful and useful for many people, and they form part of the modern druid tradition/s that have their roots in the Druid Revival.

I see there is another post about the Druid prayer as well, however I have been looking into history and origin and see that Iolo was a collector of ancient wisdom but forged and altered a great deal of it...this of course is disheartening.

All religious and spiritual traditions have been "made up" in some way or another by one human or many stretched over time, and yet we find valuable wisdom in them. I don't think anyone can claim to be in possession of the "pure" wisdom of the ancient druids, and any reconstruction still requires some innovation and invention. History has left too many gaps, and it has moved on from when Julius Caeser spoke of his Gaulish druids.

I like that OBOD acknowledges it's roots and doesn't make things up and then claim it's from another source.

Yes, OBOD tends to be quite objective about these things, but it uses a lot those sources invented during the Revival, to its benefit I feel.

I am curious...Iolo Morganwg forged the Druid prayer and the Awen symbol. Why are they still in use today? I see there is another post about the Druid prayer as well, however I have been looking into history and origin and see that Iolo was a collector of ancient wisdom but forged and altered a great deal of it...this of course is disheartening. I like that OBOD acknowledges it's roots and doesn't make things up and then claim it's from another source.

Both hold meaning for me, as does intoning the Awen, which was a great spiritual gift for me...."forged"...I suppose....spiritual creative licence? I mean, Saul/Paul "forged" Christianity, and it delivered a lot of spiritual power. Maybe forged in the "To give form or shape to, especially by means of careful effort" would be a better way to look at that word. Personally, I'm not a reconstructionist or Iron Age traditionalist and have only a casual interest in (and knowledge of) ancient Celtic times. I don't think reading and studying about Ancient Ireland and wearing a robe makes you a druid any more than a keen interest in Waterloo and wearing your hat sideways makes you Napoleon. I draw my inspiration from the Sun and life and modern systems forged in the name of Druidry (like the OBOD course) and a hodge podge of philosophies and modern ideas like environmentalism and social justice and socialism to make my own druid forgery. I know that invalidates me, in the eyes of some,from being a "real" druid..(I've been told as much on Facebook! )

All religious and spiritual traditions have been "made up" in some way or another by one human or many stretched over time, and yet we find valuable wisdom in them. I don't think anyone can claim to be in possession of the "pure" wisdom of the ancient druids, and any reconstruction still requires some innovation and invention. History has left too many gaps, and it has moved on from when Julius Caeser spoke of his Gaulish druids.

Oh indeed, something I have thought of very often. However my distaste is not about it being made up, it's an issue with him claiming it was from a more ancient source. I could respect him making it up and acknowledging it. Letting the world know it originated with him. However he tried to give it out as an ancient druid origin. That is the part I have issue with, I'm not fond of people lieing, since I take a great personal interest in history, and prefer to know origins and not go off made up origins.

Yes, OBOD tends to be quite objective about these things, but it uses a lot those sources invented during the Revival, to its benefit I feel.

Completely agree, it's one of the things that drew me to the order. I think we should all take the time and be one with the earth and learn a new from the original teacher. We can all hear in our hearts, our souls, our minds. We can connect and tap into the same oneness as those who where inspired to start the first paths. Knowing that OBOD embraces this, and does not limit those who follow it's teachings, and that they map out where it started and came from. This I find to be a great treasure and am proud to be a member of the order.

Both hold meaning for me, as does intoning the Awen, which was a great spiritual gift for me...."forged"...I suppose....spiritual creative licence? I mean, Saul/Paul "forged" Christianity, and it delivered a lot of spiritual power. Maybe forged in the "To give form or shape to, especially by means of careful effort" would be a better way to look at that word. Personally, I'm not a reconstructionist or Iron Age traditionalist and have only a casual interest in (and knowledge of) ancient Celtic times. I don't think reading and studying about Ancient Ireland and wearing a robe makes you a druid any more than a keen interest in Waterloo and wearing your hat sideways makes you Napoleon. I draw my inspiration from the Sun and life and modern systems forged in the name of Druidry (like the OBOD course) and a hodge podge of philosophies and modern ideas like environmentalism and social justice and socialism to make my own druid forgery. I know that invalidates me, in the eyes of some,from being a "real" druid..(I've been told as much on Facebook! )

Oh don't get me wrong, I realized the old druid way is essentially gone and today we have a modern reconstruction. (A very good one I feel) and I am all for inventing new ways and finding what works for you. I just didn't like that he tried to claim it as an authentic ancient druid prayer, and symbol (not sure about the symbol but I know he claimed the druid prayer was ancient.) He also forged many other documents and remade stories and poems trying to claim that is how they where in ancient days. I would applaud him if he said, it was his take and gave acknowledgement to the truth of it's origin. Just not claiming the source was other then what it was.

Still I can see both of your points and suppose I could have gathered as much. It holds meaning to those who use it today so they use it. At least we know it's origin now, even if they didn't back in the 1700s

Last edited by BlazeLeeDragon on 17 Apr 2015, 03:15, edited 1 time in total.

I just didn't like that he tried to claim it as an authentic ancient druid prayer, and symbol (not sure about the symbol but I know he claimed the druid prayer was ancient.) He also forged many other documents and remade stories and poems trying to claim that is how they where in ancient days. I would applaud him if he said, it was his taken and gave acknowledgement to the truth of it's origin. Just not claiming the source was other then what it was.

Yea, I wouldn't want to put myself into a position of defending that sort of behaviour, and I'm no Iolo expert....have just read "about" him in Ross Nichols and Philip's and Greer's books. It is a tough one to reconcile. I think you have to do what Philip and Greer and others have done and "own" it....lay it all out on the table and don't pretend it is something it isn't and celebrate what it is and could be.

Yea, I wouldn't want to put myself into a position of defending that sort of behaviour, and I'm no Iolo expert....have just read "about" him in Ross Nichols and Philip's and Greer's books. It is a tough one to reconcile. I think you have to do what Philip and Greer and others have done and "own" it....lay it all out on the table and don't pretend it is something it isn't and celebrate what it is and could be.

Well said! That is indeed my plan. It is what it is, and it has great power as a new seed from an ancient forest. This tree might not be the same from the days of old, but it's of the same family and serves the same purpose. I am just personally a fan of historical accuracy. Even in the material there are parts where they say, "no one knows" and they give both sides and views to give you things to think on. I like that they present it for what it is, and not claim it's something it is not

I think this is a hurdle for you on the journey, that eventually you will metaphysically find a way over it, under it or around it, but emotionally it will take time to integrate this.

Explanations are just apologetics.

I find in all my spiritual pagan courses that I do, that I reach certain hurdles, and no amount of 'explanations' will change that, but eventually I move on.

Maybe for you this will always be one small aspect that you never quite embrace. But I doubt it will stop you on your Druid path.

I suspect a lot of legitimate myth and History was once some skallywag's b.s. tale.

Certainly more thoughts and feedback are always welcome. Fair enough, but your right it will not stop me. Just a curiosity. I think your right though History is written by the victor and we have no idea what has been changed by who and how many times.

Oh indeed, something I have thought of very often. However my distaste is not about it being made up, it's an issue with him claiming it was from a more ancient source. I could respect him making it up and acknowledging it. Letting the world know it originated with him. However he tried to give it out as an ancient druid origin. That is the part I have issue with, I'm not fond of people lieing, since I take a great personal interest in history, and prefer to know origins and not go off made up origins.

Yes, that does put a different spin on things. What he did wasn't right, but I'm not sure if that's so important now - we know better now (more or less) and that was a long time ago. What's relevant isn't what he did but what we are left with. The damage is done and we have what we have, and we make use of it as we see fit.
I have the feeling that if he hadn't lied then all the material he'd found/adapted/forged wouldn't have become so popular, and without it druidry as we know it could have been radically different. His lies have become an enduring part of our druidic heritage.

But I am happy that our methods for inspiration have changed (for the greater part, there still remain some "Iolos" in the world). We can come up with fiction and be creative about our sources of wisdom, but we don't have to lie or deceive ourselves about it. Harry Potter and LOTR are viable sources of druidic inspiration, but we don't have to come up with stories to link it with the "real" ancient druids. Perhaps this is the meaning of Awen/Inspiration?

What's relevant isn't what he did but what we are left with. The damage is done and we have what we have, and we make use of it as we see fit.
I have the feeling that if he hadn't lied then all the material he'd found/adapted/forged wouldn't have become so popular, and without it druidry as we know it could have been radically different. His lies have become an enduring part of our druidic heritage.

But I am happy that our methods for inspiration have changed (for the greater part, there still remain some "Iolos" in the world). We can come up with fiction and be creative about our sources of wisdom, but we don't have to lie or deceive ourselves about it. Harry Potter and LOTR are viable sources of druidic inspiration, but we don't have to come up with stories to link it with the "real" ancient druids. Perhaps this is the meaning of Awen/Inspiration?

I think another view to consider is that essentially we are applying modern morals to a man born over 250 years ago.

He was born at a time when the drive to eradicate non-standard languages and cultures was considered progress.
He was born into a lower class family of stonemasons.
He produced these forgeries at a time that he was failing as a farmer and had a young family to feed.

Given that he helped kick start interest in the Celtic world amongst a society who more usually considered Celtic language speakers as barbaric and barely civilised, perhaps we can forgive his forgeries.
After all he's not the first poet to attribute his writings to an earlier inspiration.
A forger must have talent in the first place and his talent, or awen, produced some inspired work that is an essential part of the Celtic continuum from the ancient through to our modern world and to us as neo-Druids in particular.

Most dear is fire to the sons of men,
most sweet the sight of the sun;
good is health if one can but keep it,
and to live a life without shame. (Havamal 68)http://gewessiman.blogspot.co.uk

Indeed, there was an attempt to 'phase out' the welsh language and culture. My grandmother (when she was alive) remembered having to wear a 'Welsh not' sign around her neck when she had accidently spoken some welsh - her first language. Also the celebration of culture that is our urdd (youth), national and international eisteddfods has expanded incredibly since the time of Iolo.

Indeed, there was an attempt to 'phase out' the welsh language and culture. My grandmother (when she was alive) remembered having to wear a 'Welsh not' sign around her neck when she had accidently spoken some welsh - her first language. Also the celebration of culture that is our urdd (youth), national and international eisteddfods has expanded incredibly since the time of Iolo.

I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be told that you're not allowed to speak your first language anymore. My grandmother is Welsh too. I'll have to ask her about this.