If you are not cutting all kinds of targets, stationary and moving, wth your carry blade, you are not learning how to cut.

My arnis training started with movement skills and patterns. My Western blade training started with how to cut properly and then went to patterns and uses of the various cuts.

For live blade simulation, I like a false blade that mimics my carry blade the best - I use the Spyderco drones for non-technical defensive practice. I got them as seconds at the Spyderco factory outlet in Boulder at half price. !

Whew, touchy subject. I'm going to go out on a limb on my first official post here, and admit to being one of the dummies who trains regularly with live blades. I work with very high risk juvenile offenders for a living, and the chances of my being attacked with a bladed weapon are extremely high. I can't afford to go into that situation prepared with anything less that realistic training. At our school with my students, we make live blade training a regular part of the curriculum. The art we practice is based upon the blade (from tactical folders up to and including the barong, kris, bolo, etc.), and although we use wooden and aluminum training replicas, we do knife tapping and line drills with live blades. It's kind of like the difference between practicing empty hand non-contact sparring and contact sparring (at whatever level of contact you choose)...I've seen way more people injured in non-contact sparring than in contact sparring. At some point in your training, you simply have to put on the gloves and as Bruce stated, get in the water. When the element of real danger is there, your whole mind-set changes. You are focused on the moment, what the Japanese martial artists call "Mushin". You can't let your mind wander, a less-than focused mind can cause real injury, but then again, we are practicing life saving arts here...we are therefore honing real life saving skills with live blade training. Now, we aren't stupidly hacking away at each other, the point is to develop sensitivity, real sensitivity, and we have found that without the live blade, the emotional and mental aspects that must be honed to effectively defend against the blade simply aren't being developed. We begin slow, then work our way up, according to the student's comfort level and pace...the point is to develop skills, not to send people to the hospital as a matter of course. We aren't crazy, we don't have scars we wear as badges of courage (in fact, no one has been hurt yet in many years of this training), but the live blade is an essential tool in our training. The key word here is "tool".

But then again, that's just me and my take on the subject...

Kim

_________________________
"You must be the change you want to see in the world" Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi

Quote: When the element of real danger is there, your whole mind-set changes.

Quote: We aren't crazy, we don't have scars we wear as badges of courage (in fact, no one has been hurt yet in many years of this training)

So is there an element of danger or not? People get hurt sparring every day, even with pads on. It might be a bloody nose or something as simple as a bruised ego. That is one of the factors that get a persons adrenaline pumping and heart rate going… If I know I’m going to participate in something where I know no one has been hurt whether it involves a live blade or not then where is the real element of danger?

Quote:we have found that without the live blade, the emotional and mental aspects that must be honed to effectively defend against the blade simply aren't being developed.

Quote: Now, we aren't stupidly hacking away at each other…

Unfortunately “stupidly hacking away” is what a real opponent who has the intent on hurting or killing you will do. Doing simple drills or preset attacks, or training against an opponent who has no intent on seriously hurting you with a live blade is doing nothing but teaching what I would call blade handling. Without intent you are missing one of the key mental and emotional aspects of a real situation. If you train intent and use a live blade, then someone will get hurt. If you don’t believe me I will gladly come to your school and play the part of the guy with the knife.

I have tried several types of blade training. *** With a marker or a marking type of knife you can train intent but it lacks the danger of a live blade*** With a live blade you can practice blade handling both offensive and defensive but there is no real intent if you are trying to be safe*** Live blade with intent is just stupid unless you are a cutter and enjoy the pain.

What else is there?*** We used to use a stun gun to train with. Fear of being shocked keeps the element of danger there, but because there is no cutting, bleeding or death involved the person attacking you can use all the intent a real attacker might use.*** They now have a shock knife (wish we would have copyrighted this idea when we were first using the stun gun) http://www.shocknife.com/ of course these are pretty expensive…

What’s the real problem in all of this?The real problem is that a knife is a weapon of assassination. You will never see it coming, you will only feel it. A person who really knows how to use a knife will come at you from a blind spot or from behind, or if you engage him (not knowing he is armed) he will wait until you are in a clinch or on the ground to retrieve it and bury it in you. If you see him coming he will not have his knife hand forward. He will have his free hand forward which will be defusing any attempts you have at blocking, and his knife hand will be pumping like a piston at any vital area he can get to. The Hollywood fantasy of the guy who presents the knife is a thing of the past if it ever existed at all, and people today are more prone to violence. Most bad guys realize it is much easier to take a wallet off of a dead guy than it is to ask for it.

_________________________
You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.

Quote:Whew, touchy subject. I'm going to go out on a limb on my first official post here, and admit to being one of the dummies who trains regularly with live blades. I work with very high risk juvenile offenders for a living, and the chances of my being attacked with a bladed weapon are extremely high. I can't afford to go into that situation prepared with anything less that realistic training. At our school with my students, we make live blade training a regular part of the curriculum. The art we practice is based upon the blade (from tactical folders up to and including the barong, kris, bolo, etc.), and although we use wooden and aluminum training replicas, we do knife tapping and line drills with live blades. It's kind of like the difference between practicing empty hand non-contact sparring and contact sparring (at whatever level of contact you choose)...I've seen way more people injured in non-contact sparring than in contact sparring. At some point in your training, you simply have to put on the gloves and as Bruce stated, get in the water. When the element of real danger is there, your whole mind-set changes. You are focused on the moment, what the Japanese martial artists call "Mushin". You can't let your mind wander, a less-than focused mind can cause real injury, but then again, we are practicing life saving arts here...we are therefore honing real life saving skills with live blade training. Now, we aren't stupidly hacking away at each other, the point is to develop sensitivity, real sensitivity, and we have found that without the live blade, the emotional and mental aspects that must be honed to effectively defend against the blade simply aren't being developed. We begin slow, then work our way up, according to the student's comfort level and pace...the point is to develop skills, not to send people to the hospital as a matter of course. We aren't crazy, we don't have scars we wear as badges of courage (in fact, no one has been hurt yet in many years of this training), but the live blade is an essential tool in our training. The key word here is "tool".

But then again, that's just me and my take on the subject...

Kim

Sir you are talking about weapon, you may do a seminar at Kuala Lumpur Malaysia and we will see that your weapons practice..

Both of my FMA instructors(Kali and Eskrima respectively) I know train with live blades, but that is the choice both of them make.

Insofar as their students are concerned, the Kali instructor may put a blunted metal sword in your hand to be able to appreciate the weight & feel of the weapon with regard to technical performance. The Eskrima instructor collects certain weapons and will occasionally take one out to use, but that is it. I have not yet heard anything about "live blade training" as part of a cirriculum somehow yet.

Both instructors have been training in excess of ten years, so I leave their decisions up to them.

I think that if you are in a confrontation which has reached a point to where you feel you need to actually take out a knife, you have officially messed up somehow or truly are in a bad place.

Neither instructor approaches knife/blade fighting as something akin to bare-hands, the attributes of the weapons are always used to drill.

Besides, blade-fights are like quick-draw competitions; first shot usually wins. I know few people who can deal with being cut open like in the movies.

Honestly, I write much of the live-blade training as myths from when FMA had just "come over" from the Phillipines. The old masters may have had to carry a real weapon with them for protection, or serious have to consider using a sword.

However, old phillipines is not here. Stupid to train like that, quick way to get your throat cut. Respect the heritage of the FMA and the old training methods and the attributes they may help bring out. Do not fancy yourself a "knife expert" or "Blade Expert".

You can take a few hits with barehands, but you will take only two from blades. One to realize you have been cut, and then you don't feel what happens after the second.

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"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

Absolutely. I don't believe you can really learn it all without doing it at some point. There's so much that is not the same with sticks or even practice blades. How to hit properly, what happens to your weapon - you learn a lot about how to care for your weapon if you practice with it.

That's not to say don't be safe about it though. Don't do drills you haven't done before. Don't do it with someone who is not well-practiced. Don't spar and don't do full-speed anything. Wear eye, head and body protection, etc.

Training live blades always changes your mindset, just look at how defensive and uptight people got with their replies. In a real situation what kind of mindset will you perform better with. You see a real blade and say to yourself ok its party time, or you can be oh my god its a real blade. Im not saying to do mindless drills over and over, but you need to be able to swing a large blade just like it is a stick. If you can't you are more than likely going to cut yourself at a time when you can't stop and get a bandaid. As my teacher says "if it matters what the other person is trying to do to you, you are probably going to die." You have to stay loose, and you can't predict for one second what your enemy is going to do or what kind of weapon they might use. So make your training reflect that type of mindset.