Who said it was the quesiton. The answer was obvious, in terms of us - NO ONE.

Holy shit, are you just looking for an arguement or what?

"If we are occupying Wall St then why would we think its a good idea to force the people to give them their hard earned money?"

It was suppose to be an obvious answer there dude. If you and your tea friends want to keep forcing people into paying the corporations, then go for it. I dont care if its for Obamacare or for privatizing SS, I dont have a use for any of you.

As far as Im concerned, anyone who wants to force people into the insurance industry or wall st is a fuckin scumbag. An obivous corporate shill. Thats my position.

If you would like to discuss things thats great. If you want to go to crazyland and start claiming Im a tea turd or a Republican because Im not 100% aligned with you, then we should prob just stop this now.

Your proposal sounds a lot like a particular set of leaders. Are you a follower?

I support raising rates on the wealthy, cutting all loopholes for the wealthy, and cutting rates for the working class. Those are ideas I hear from progressive leaders (green party, OWS, & others) but I consider their positions just them following the people.

People lose their freedom for violent acts. That ain't a Victor law. That is THE law.

I simply say I agree they should also lose the right to access guns.

I submit YOU are outta your fuckin mind to believe fighting shouldn't have punishment that includes losing rights (what do you think jail is,? a shooting range? lol), beating women is not enough grounds for losing gun rights, and somehow "all the time" wife beaters are unjustly accused.

Repeat wife abusers should be beaten in public as far as Im concerned.

As far as getting in a fight, everyone has, just some get pinched. Not a big deal. Been happening since the beginning of time. People are violent creatures, just look at our history. Especially Americans.

Someone wants to go around beating people, ya they should be put in jail. Perhaps even prison.

My agenda is to fight for progressive change that benefits the 99%. My agenda is pushing the "we're in this together" ideology that will improve the lives of the 99% by creating a more perfect and equitable union.

On Social Security, (& healthcare) that means ALL of us contributing based on our needs, Not "opting out" and thinking selfishly only of ourselves.

You think we agree 90%. Maybe. I ain't done an analysis, on Social security it seems we are far apart. I see approach leading to the destruction of this great program, and the elderly dying in destitution, eating dogfood.

On taxes I see your approach of eliminating loopholes for the middle class as harmful and counterproductive to achieving equity for working Americans.

On guns I see your approach as protecting violent criminals and the profits of NRA/gun mfg, at the expense of gun victims.

Well, if someone has been in a bar fight and you want to take their rights away- ya we def disagree there.

If you eliminate 100% of all the loopholes it would take care of the tax problem. The minute you start deciding which ones to keep is the minute the money starts to talk. Overall we agree there needs to be more money from the top. BoA paid 0 in taxes. That is an outrage.

Im all for letting people do SS. And like I said, my broke ass will end up with way more than I paid into it, so dropping out would actually leave more than I paid. Not exactly a selfish move. A smart move, in my view, but not selfish.

What you are saying with SS is that people are better off having their paychecks docked for a future retirement than letting them manage their money. And I think there is a lot of truth to that.

I dont care what they say. And you shouldnt either. This isnt them, this is me and you having a conversation. wtf....

How does me paying into SS for my retirement have anything to do with the other people in this country? Thats about me. And my retirement. If anything, Id be gettig more than I paid in, so my opting out would be more money for everyone else.

If you want to keep doing dumb left/right talking points, then go at it. Go nuts.

You have an agenda and its to label and discredit anyone who doesnt agree 100% with what you say. Me and you agree on the basics of about 90% of the stuff we talk about. But I dont think you realize it.

Listen dude, I dont care what the media has done to screw every conversation that is worth having, like this one.

Opting out isnt the same as privatizing. Privatizing it is the worst possible thing that could ever be done with it.

Plenty of occupiers dont want SS, the anarchists want to get rid of just about everything at the federal level. I think they;re a bit extreme, imo.

Tea wants to privatize it. That their thing. The Dems want to keep mismanaging it. Thats their thing. I dont want to be associated with either them in any way/shape/form. If some do, thats their choice. I think they are either wrong (tea) or naive (dems) but whatever.

Go for it. Knock yourself out. I've seen the data on the amount of money they take out of the system, and the amount they pay out to people in the end. They are thieves. Not saying it hasnt lifted many out of elderly poverty, but its no where near what it could be.

"They" will always do whatever they can get away with. And the current trend they are on since WWII usually leads to something not too pleasant.

So would I like to be able to opt out? Yes. Was the entire SS system built on paying for those older than you, as opposed to creating your own retirement? yes. So does that lead to a direct conflict of interest? Yes.

So if the system is really built on the younger generation paying for the current retirees, then could I morally opt out? Depends on a few things. Am I making enough money to take care of my family. If Im not, then I would have to.

I support SS if the people support it. Ive never said I want to privatize SS...forcing people into wall st is total facsist bullshit.

If people want to do their retirement that way, then go for it. Im personally a bit concerned about the state of our country and the ongoing war and killing, and then putting those people in charge of my retirement. I think everyone is.

Youre really still barking up the privatize ss tree? For the 300th time. No.

Again. Ill repeat. No.

All those tax rates are meaningless both as things stand now, and if all the loopholes were closed, we could eliminate them all. The fed income tax would bring some much fuckin money it would make your head spin.

Then you guys could bomb about another 8 countries!!!

If you are really still asking me about the SS thing then its clear you just want to fight. Im going to go to work, I suggest you do the same thing.

I would never support the regressive approach you and the Tea party propose.

I would never support removing loopholes for the middle class. The 99% have suffered enough. To create equity requires we remove loopholes & raise rates for the wealthy, & we cut rates for the working class.

You clearly havent been listening to what Im saying and just want to argue.

We both want one thing- more income from the top rung. Theres multiple ways to go. I just feel that mine takes care of the problem once and for all and that simply focusing on the rates is more reactionary than preventive.

Cuts to a wide array of subsidies, with alternative energy companies, sugar growers, and high-speed rail all to get the ax.
A conservative alternative to Obamacare.
A “flat tax” system.
A private savings option for Social Security.
Tax reform to broaden the tax base.

While I am at it. No, providing information in another language does NOT alter the behavior of those with English as a second language as a sense of entitlement. There is NO data to support that. NONE. It's a crock of shit.

Further, telling people that they just pool so much money a month to hire a teacher hands education to the elite.

Look, I'd like to buy the world a Coke. But, that isn't how it works. This is not a game.

And obviously they want profits too. Just more "profits over people" scams.

The rail thing here in Florida was a botched job from day one. They wanted to make it go from Tampa to Orlando, with a stop in lakeland, so its then not even quicker. If they had any brains they would make it go from Tampa to St Pete so people could avoid the bridge traffic. It would be packed with people on a daily basis. It was almost as if they purposely did the dumbest thing possible in their proposal.

The sugar lobby is horribly corrupt too, all that subsidie money goes right into their pockets, they pay their workers shit.

Im all for alternative energy funds, science in general.

Last I knew we were campaigning for socialist medicine in 08, not fascist.

Pooling money together is exactly what taxes are. Its done a bigger and broader scale. Thats what property taxes go to, is schools. I was simply pointing out that if you pool peoples' money together, its not very expensive. Yes property taxes are sky high. So what gives?

And go talk some people from Mexico about what I mentioned. Its true. Thats who opened my eyes up to it. I didnt come up with it.

The ones who dont learn the language are forever in a service industry. Those messages arent geared at teh bilingual. And it also helps to keep everyone seperate in teh social tendencies of humans. Its also creates division. Thats the points of that. People can think its being done because these huge corporations "care". Sociopaths are the ones making teh rules. Very sick people.

That's right. That is exactly what taxes are for. You have FAILED to address high stakes testing. You have FAILED to address the number that do not pay property taxes (like hospitals don't have to because of charity which they don't have to justify) which places the burden strictly on the people. So, don't say, "what gives?"

Go talk to some people in Mexico? Really? REALLY? You are advocating for specific changes of which you have clearly not spent any amount of time researching. Clearly. You might want to change that.

You want to fuck with the duopoly then you are going to need to bring more to the table than but so and so did that on the other team and bombings in another section of the world.

Well, bombing people should be the deciding factor, but we are a war loving country, so that clearly isnt enough.

Go look at the amount of students in Rochester, and then look at what they collect in property taxes. Teachers should be making a ton and the students should be flush with resources, yet its the exact opposite. So what gives? It doest take that much money to get students a decent education, that was the point. Im not advocating anything except that communities get involved.

And obviously I didnt say go to mexico, I said talk to some people from Mexico. Ask them what happens when people dont learn the language in terms of social mobility. Its obvious to them, it should be obvious to us all. And theres not exactly a lot of research out there on central planning and manufactured consent, for a reason.

I didnt even mention any changes with it, Im simply saying these sick fucks like to keep everyone divided and hold everyone down. Just like the drug war. What changes should be made is another topic. Id like to see more educational opportunities all over.

Pffttt.........it is currently being used as a distraction method in an attempt not to focus on any issue in question.

Again, you have failed to address the money going to high stakes testing and money not coming in from hospitals and any other non profits operating as for profit. Nor have you addressed charter school scams. Which is actually pretty funny because if you were looking to make a case against the duopoly then this is it.

Why in the hell would I listen to someone from Mexico?
I might have to go back to the 1990s and check out some fun filled political events and loans. . I might have to take into consideration wonderful events.

Here are a couple of fun filled facts. We have people that are never going to be able to learn the English language for the same reason that we have people here that are not going to be able to learn another language. Sometimes there is a medical reason. Sometimes there is a learning disability.

We have people that come to the US that are not literate in their own language. So, they need to learn their primary language first to make the transition. There is data to support that. Do we currently provide that? Only if you have some outside organization that has the ability and only if there are a group of that nationality that is willing and able to do it. But not from the government for adults.

We know that this works but we don't do that. We don't have the resources. At best we can give notices and use translators in their primary language. The important thing is that there is comprehension of the information first.

Sorry folks, the ability to speak simple sentences in English does not mean that everyone comprehends the English language.

How does this boil down into education in the US. If you have a child that has a parent that is literate in their primary language then information transferred makes it easier for the parents to be actively involved in the students education. If they cannot comprehend the instructions then it doesn't do any good.

Kids that do not speak English should learn much of the subject matter in their primary language as they transition. Again. It is about comprehending the subject matter.

Don't blame this shit on central planning or manufacturing consent. That is just god damned lazy. These are specific issues where a whole hell of a lot of research has been done but it is conveniently fucking ignored. There are MANY people that are fighting to make changes on each level. But, if we say central planning and manufacturing consent then we don't have to pay attention.

Why would you listen to someone from Mexico? On the topic of language vs opportunity? I think that is pretty obvious. And Im not talking about kids. Im talking about a fuckin bank of america mortage loan thats a total fuckin scam in spanish.

Theres research on all sorts of shit, supporting all sides of any argument. Claiming divide and conquer as the over arching strategy of the elites isnt lazy, its just the blantanly obvious underlying current of almost everything that is going on.

I wasnt addressing the hospitals and the charter schools because it wasnt part of the point. The point wasnt where the funds are coming from, or what the current funds are, ect. It was simply to show people that its very manageable to create schools. Should be incredibly easy when people are paying into who dont even have kids in school.

Im not sure where you are taking this at this point, I think you missed the point of that bit. It was simply break down to a community level and show some numbers. Thats it. Nothing more nothing less.

As far as war goes, yes, it should be the line in the sand. Its not a reason to not address other things, but it should be all the proof any duopoly arguement needs because its teh very worst thing a government can do.

You want to talk to about the money being spent..........but, ignore where the money is actually going or why the property taxes are so high on individuals. How convenient. Management. No, you are ignoring management.

Do I live in Mexico? No. I live in the US. I need look no further for mobility and language/education then right here. You don't have data to support behavioral changes by catering at that level.

The community level. As a community is a mantra not to pay taxes or to resolve issues. If we call it community then we can conveniently ignore the issues. In fact, community has been hijacked from the community.

Pretending that blaming everything on the elite is also conveniently ignoring the resolution of issues.

Interjecting war into every damned issue does NOT resolve issues. It is a noted distraction.......oh, where is our humanity.

Im missing your point because I have no idea where you are flying off with this. Interjecting war into things is pretty needed. Its the epitome of corporate greed, and thats this site.

I dont need data that was made by lord knows who when the very people in question tell me things.

And Im sorry that the media has turned community into a mantra for not paying taxes, but that is exactly what the point was- pooling money together to get things done. Community has been hijacked, to the point where someone mentions it and others think they are saying we shouldnt pay taxes. Thats fucked up.

I thought it was proving the point of what we value. And it aint education.

Education isnt a priority. If it was, you wouldnt be sitting at a school board meeting with about 10% of the parents.

What do you want to do research on? That theyve dumbed down the system to the point of pathetic? That they are shoving pills in the kids like no ones business? That they are making the teachers act like fuckin robots?

Im sorry, but we dont need more research. We need action. We need people to start getting off their fat asses and start making this shit happen.

We dont need anymore people sitting around talking about statistics and creating theories on how to make little Johnnie memorize the 50 states better.

We need leaders. Thats the bottom line. And thats what the point of my post was. That this shit isnt fuckin hard. It just takes people giving a shit and actually doing something.

If you want to take my examples of this asinine society and the fuckin bullshit they value, and the horrific crimes they ignore, all as an overall point of this place is out of its fucking mind.....if you want to label that deflection, fine.

The people have no clue what the fuck is going on. NONE. And the few do arent interested in actually doing anything about. And that includes me, you and just about everyone else on this stupid fuckin internet chat room.

Theres a reason education fuckin sucks in this country. And its not because we need more stats and we need more people with pens giving us opinions- ITS BECAUSE NO ONE FUCKIN CARES.

AFterthought Edit- this isnt to say that this cannot be turned around. Its simply that if this is the effort level that people think it takes to get shit done, we are in deep deep shit. Its not good enough. It hasnt been good enough, its not now, and its not anywhere near what it needs to be.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Just so we are clear:
You don't want to really track the money.
You don't want to research any information on faux privatization.
You don't want to research any information on high stakes testing.
You don't want to research any information on learning disabilities which would lead to inclusion.
You don't want to research any information on ESL.
You don't want to research any information on working theories (those theories that can be applied).

You then want to blame society for not knowing what is going on and demand leaders.

the fuck? Were you dropped on your head as a child?

You have no idea what the fuck is going on, and subsequently, wouldn't recognize leaders.

When you are ready to stop with bitching on a bar stool and address the issues involved, you let me know.

The research is already done. Like you said, they know what is fucked up, they just wont fix it.

"I've been to school board meetings. Last 15 minutes, the public might get to ask some questions. Awesome."

Thats exactly what Im talking about. We are the ones paying for this. And the parents get 15 minutes at the end of it, and thats it. So instead of saying "Hold the fuck up, we are going to figure this out" they go home disenchanted.

The research is out there. Common core meeting here in Tampa a couple weeks ago. 100 peope showed up. 100. Thats fuckin pathetic.

Go out and try to explain it. Create a school event where you are going to present your research and engage the parents. See how many show up.

It will be you and a handful of others. Maybe.

No shit kids learn differently. So why not let the teachers try different things. Jesus this shit is difficult. But we've got a group of political hacks with some stats that say if the teacher does X Y and Z, then it will lead to ABand C, which is total bullshit.

Disabilities- kind of hard to tailor a program that is set in stone to the individual. No Child and all that other fuckin garbage- throw it all out. Done.

Here's a working theory for you- The Bills announce they may be moving to Toronto. Its fuckin mayhem. coverage up the ass, comments everywhere. Fuckin big news.

More schools closing- nothing.

So tell me how the fuck anyone can deduct that this country gives a shit about education. We got people down here fighting for a new fuckin baseball stadium. The kids dont have fuckin books. What in the fuck is going on.

Go do some research on the food they feed these kids, then they cant sit still, then they pump some pills into em. Fucked up shit. I dont need a study by some suit to tell me thats fuckin bullshit.

If it was a priority, it would be different. Dont take this as an absolute. Some care. A lot care. But they arent doing enough, myself included. Clearly how things are is not working. Education in this country fuckin sucks.

I didnt realize you wanted to spend the rest of your life studying instead of acting.

Act is the key part in activism.

Honestly, try this: "Go out and try to explain it. Create a school event where you are going to present research and engage the parents. See how many show up."

It will be enough to make you almost cry. Im not fuckin kidding. And its the root of everything that is going on right now. These politicians and these people we are fighting didnt just show up out of nowhere. They came from us.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

I didnt realize you wanted to spend the rest of your life studying instead of acting.

Act is the key part in activism.

Honestly, try this: "Go out and try to explain it. Create a school event where you are going to present research and engage the parents. See how many show up."

It will be enough to make you almost cry. Im not fuckin kidding. And its the root of everything that is going on right now. These politicians and these people we are fighting didnt just show up out of nowhere. They came from us.

Not when you are looking for resolutions on the domestic front. It is not the problem solver in several domestic affairs. International policy is very specific and should never be used as an excuse. Never.

The rest of the US that focuses on resolution of issues operates with data and research. Otherwise, it doesn't do any damn good unless you are sitting at a bar making generalizations. If that is all we are going to do then I'm going to need to run and get a six pack.

Much, much later.

Community has been hijacked to the point of we know the answer to the problem but, hey fuck you we aren't going to do it. Because in Libertopia that is freedom.

Honestly until society values education it doesnt really matter what any of us do, or want to do, or try to do.

I think we tend to make a lot of this stuff more complicated than it need be. I mean honestly, what do we need for effective education, for the most part

A teacher

A classroom

Supplies

Kid that are willing to learn

Thats really it.

And the war thing isnt an excuse, but I get sick of people pandering to people who are warmongering maniacs to fix things. Lots of money going to it, lots of resources, lots of deaths. War is really epitome of the worst of humans.

Its not a distraction. Besides the death and destruction its causing, its a huge suck of resources.

And no, this country doesnt value education. Go to your next school board meeting. See how many parents show up. Yes, the teachers care. Thats why they teach. And I def value it, its why I do the stuff I do. I just helped someone get into college I feel very strongly about education.

But if this is our idea of valuing education, then we are screwed. Ya know what we value? Stuff. Material things. Its all around.

There's obviously people who value education. I helped get the education work group here going, and even got some great speakers lined up for some events, like how the housing crash happened and what to look out for.

Compare tv ratings from Kardashians to National Geographic. Hell, even they are starting to run some real garbage programming.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

It is a distraction when it is thrown into the middle of a topic where it isn't warranted. We all see this shit and we all know what's going on. Ain't no big secret.

I've been to school board meetings. Last 15 minutes, the public might get to ask some questions. Awesome. Hence the need to research the issues. You refuse to do it. Thus, the person that doesn't value education is you.

Refusing to research the issues and then pointing to others and saying that these people don't value education is ........deflection. Plain and simple.

Comparisons between tv ratings has nothing to do with education. Attempting to use that as a marker is deflection.

I thought it was proving the point of what we value. And it aint education.

Education isnt a priority. If it was, you wouldnt be sitting at a school board meeting with about 10% of the parents.

What do you want to do research on? That theyve dumbed down the system to the point of pathetic? That they are shoving pills in the kids like no ones business? That they are making the teachers act like fuckin robots?

Im sorry, but we dont need more research. We need action. We need people to start getting off their fat asses and start making this shit happen.

We dont need anymore people sitting around talking about statistics and creating theories on how to make little Johnnie memorize the 50 states better.

We need leaders. Thats the bottom line. And thats what the point of my post was. That this shit isnt fuckin hard. It just takes people giving a shit and actually doing something.

If you want to take my examples of this asinine society and the fuckin bullshit they value, and the horrific crimes they ignore, all as an overall point of this place is out of its fucking mind.....if you want to label that deflection, fine.

The people have no clue what the fuck is going on. NONE. And the few do arent interested in actually doing anything about. And that includes me, you and just about everyone else on this stupid fuckin internet chat room.

Theres a reason education fuckin sucks in this country. And its not because we need more stats and we need more people with pens giving us opinions- ITS BECAUSE NO ONE FUCKIN CARES.

AFterthought Edit- this isnt to say that this cannot be turned around. Its simply that if this is the effort level that people think it takes to get shit done, we are in deep deep shit. Its not good enough. It hasnt been good enough, its not now, and its not anywhere near what it needs to be.

But we do value education. You don't value it and that's fine but that doesn't fly as an excuse either. OWS values education. Teachers value education. Guess who doesn't value education? Faux privatization, test creators and people who are seeking to steal from the public coffers via charter schools.

Test creators, faux privatization, people who are seeking to steal from the public coffers via private and charter schools and people who refuse to do any amount of research make it more complicated and they do it on purpose.

So, no. That really isn't it. Unless of course, you sit on a bar stool and do shots.

You can't just go off gut instinct and make shit up as you go here. We have kids with learning disabilities. Kids that learn information differently. We have great theories that fail when applied.

The war thing becomes an excuse when you use it not to address a specific issue. I'm tired of people using the shit as a distraction.

Its not a distraction. Besides the death and destruction its causing, its a huge suck of resources.

And no, this country doesnt value education. Go to your next school board meeting. See how many parents show up. Yes, the teachers care. Thats why they teach. And I def value it, its why I do the stuff I do. I just helped someone get into college I feel very strongly about education.

But if this is our idea of valuing education, then we are screwed. Ya know what we value? Stuff. Material things. Its all around.

There's obviously people who value education. I helped get the education work group here going, and even got some great speakers lined up for some events, like how the housing crash happened and what to look out for.

Compare tv ratings from Kardashians to National Geographic. Hell, even they are starting to run some real garbage programming.

Guess who agrees that this country doesnt value education enough- almost every single regular occupier I know. Its glaringly obvious and it doesnt need anymore research.

I appreciate your posts on prison education, I think thats the key to enlightenment is more education. You are, however, in the very small minority with your beliefs. Most people just dont give a shit enough to see it through.

new fair deal? more like a red hot rod up the ass. how about they take that plan and fuck off. what we need is a new libertarian socialist party representing the ideals of syndicalism. what we need is just one man or woman to stand up and say i will crush the banks and corporations and we will be off and running a full on revolution. when is a real red blooded populist going to appear on the horizon.