Saliph, I'm not extremely well read on Islam. I have my issues with Sharia law and other Islamic cultures, but to presume that all Muslims are like that, or any sort of majority, is a very narrow minded approach.

I'm pretty sure that 99% of Muslims hate the Muslim extremists as much as you do.

Is Saliph suggesting that the million or so peaceful muslims who live in this country and abide by it's laws, whilst simultaenously following their religion without really bothering anyone, are going to rise up and take over??

Would someone give me a heads up when this is about to happen, so I can go out and stock up on cans of Tuna.

Even if Islamic doctrines are incompatible a lot of Muslims (majority of 90% imo) have adopted and accepted these 'Western values' and they do so without losing their religious identity.

Click to expand...

- Who cares about your opinion? "My opinion is that the majority of mulims 99,9% hate the West". If my opinion has no basis in reality, who gives a feck? You have to take into account scientific research. As I've said, go read Pew Research's opinion polls, for example. The results are quite appalling.

I cannot comment on this without doing any/further research but from the few documentaries I have seen, Muslims were very prominent in developing science. Furthermore, there is some discussion of science/scientific elements in the Quran itself - again I cannot comment on this without learning more about it.

Click to expand...

- You completely missed my point again. Science is a method for obtaining truth, and as such has nothing to do with Islam. Even if ALL the people who developed science were muslims, it would have absolutely nothing to do with Islam in itself. It's as stupid as saying "science is responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki". It's completely nonsensical, because science is not an ideology. It's a method.

Has it been instigated under the guise of 'Islam'? It seems to me people want freedoms from the tyranny of their regimes rather than more supression. There is certainly less of an Islamic influence in the Arab spring than there is in Pakistan where the terrorist element is emerging more prominently.

Click to expand...

- Neither Libya nor Egypt (nor Syria) have been particularly religious regimes in the past (like all totalitarian regimes they were religious in themselves, but that's beside the point), but they now seem certain to become Islamic states.

Tell me, have you read the Quran yourself and understood what it says yourself?

Click to expand...

- Large parts of it, yes. And please spare me the nonsense about interpretation. The Quran clearly states, repeatedly, that nonbelievers/infidels are to be hated, converted, subjugated or killed, for example. As a muslim you oughta know that.

Is your argument that Islam and Western values cannot co-exist?

Click to expand...

- Yes, absolutely. I'd say the same about Christianity, for example, but seeing as it has to a large degree become benign (at least in my country, Norway) due to scientific and secular progress, I'm not too worried about it.

- Yes, absolutely. I'd say the same about Christianity, for example, but seeing as it has to a large degree become benign (at least in my country, Norway) due to scientific and secular progress, I'm not too worried about it.

Click to expand...

The influence of Christianity is ingrained history and culture of Western Civilization, and it's constitutions. It continues to be the case.

- Who cares about your opinion? "My opinion is that the majority of mulims 99,9% hate the West". If my opinion has no basis in reality, who gives a feck? You have to take into account scientific research. As I've said, go read Pew Research's opinion polls, for example. The results are quite appalling.

Click to expand...

feck scientific research, how many Muslims of the millions living in Europe have killed in the name of Islam? Look at facts not science, majority of Muslims live peacefully.

- You completely missed my point again. Science is a method for obtaining truth, and as such has nothing to do with Islam. Even if ALL the people who developed science were muslims, it would have absolutely nothing to do with Islam in itself. It's as stupid as saying "science is responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki". It's completely nonsensical, because science is not an ideology. It's a method.

Click to expand...

Point taken.

- Neither Libya nor Egypt (nor Syria) have been particularly religious regimes in the past (like all totalitarian regimes they were religious in themselves, but that's beside the point), but they now seem certain to become Islamic states.

Click to expand...

We'll see.

- Large parts of it, yes. And please spare me the nonsense about interpretation. The Quran clearly states, repeatedly, that nonbelievers/infidels are to be hated, converted, subjugated or killed, for example. As a muslim you oughtta know that.

Click to expand...

I will not save you the 'nonsense of interpretation'. The Quran and every text can be interpreted differently depending on context, I will read it myself and reach my own conclusions without you or anyone else (unless they are a qualified scholar) telling me what it does or does not say.

To think that as a Muslim 'I oughtta know' I have to apparently kill, hate, convert, subjugate non-Muslims is a racist comment in itself. Spare me the racism.

- Yes, absolutely. I'd say the same about Christianity, for example, but seeing as it has to a large degree become benign (at least in my country, Norway) due to scientific and secular progress, I'm not too worried about it.

Click to expand...

Christianity is still important in Western culture and values.

If you believe that religion (Islam, Christianity etc) is not apart of Western values or is not compatible with these values then it's your opinion and it is not shared by everyone else. Religion can and has coexisted with Western values, one does not need to perish for the other to survive.

Except in the case of the US, I should add, where Christian fascists are constantly trying to legislate for their own biblical beliefs.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree. People like to claim, even in Norway, that we are a nation based on Christian values. But we clearly are not. In fact, many of our core values are downright hostile to the values of the bible (the role of women, homosexuality, pro choice, etc). We are not a Christian nation; we are a secular nation.

The US is different, though less than we fear. Even there rules and laws are to some degree keeping the religious right in check. They aren't allowed to do whatever they want. Some areas are really suffering though, like science education. Well, science in general.

Indeed, I usually get a little upset when someone try to label me an anti-semitic mass murderer. Crazy, I know.

No, I won't put you on ignore, seeing as you keep making outragous accusations about me. And the mods seemingly don't care about it.

Click to expand...

The irony of you resorting to the straw man argument every time you cannot respond and then building a gigantic straw man here is clearly lost on you. 'Islamic values' are not compatible with 'Western' civilization'....'We'. For you, it boils down to a very simple we and them situation. Its as simple as that. All the squirming, faux outrage and swearing in the world won't hide that.

The mods aren't doing anything about it because they're looking at it from an objective point of view and can clearly see that I'm not calling you an anti-semitic mass murderer. That by you, I am clearly referring to the 'Western civilization' that you seem so eager on holding up as a monolithic entity. Not one single person on this thread will have thought I was calling you that.

So again. Put me on the ignore list. Or control yourself and ignore me without doing that. But I will not 'feck off' from discussions just so you don't have a hissy fit. And I don't keep on making outrageous comments about you, you don't register outside when we cross paths in a thread. Which is very rarely.

- Large parts of it, yes. And please spare me the nonsense about interpretation. The Quran clearly states, repeatedly, that nonbelievers/infidels are to be hated, converted, subjugated or killed, for example. As a muslim you oughta know that.

Does it matter if I know what science is or is not? What part of my statement is untrue? Do you honestly believe every Muslim is an enemy of Europe and the West?

Click to expand...

No, and I've never said that every person who labels him or herself a muslim hates the West, or cannot live peacefully within a Western society.. This is really tiring me out, I wish people would read what I write.

Your statement is the equivalent of saying "feck scientific research.. the earth looks flat to me".

No, and I've never said that every person who labels him or herself a muslim hates the West. This is really tiring me out, I wish people would read what I write.

Click to expand...

I did read what you wrote:

You:We're talking about mainstream doctrines in Islam which are incompatible with Western civilization, and principles like freedom of speech etc.

Click to expand...

You:Obviously there are plenty of people in the West (and in the Islamic world) who are not violent at all, and who appreciate unnegotiable values like freedom of speech etc. But that in itself has nothing to do with Islam. It has to do with their own secularization. They've abandonded Islamic values in favor or Western values.

Click to expand...

Me:Why do you think that every Muslim has contempt for the Western way of life?You:Because of Islamic scripture.

Click to expand...

By reading your comments it seems you do not believe Islam and Western values can coexist and according to that Muslims cannot embrace Western values until they give up their religious values. By extension if you cannot embrace something, you cannot like it - so it seems to me you think practicing Muslims hate the West.

No, and I've never said that every person who labels him or herself a muslim hates the West, or cannot live peacefully within a Western society.. This is really tiring me out, I wish people would read what I write.

Your statement is the equivalent of saying "feck scientific research.. the earth looks flat to me".

Click to expand...

In this context are you really serious that this so called scientific research which warns you about the evils of Islam is more accurate than the facts which show Muslims are living peacefully in Western society?

Saliph, I'm not extremely well read on Islam. I have my issues with Sharia law and other Islamic cultures, but to presume that all Muslims are like that, or any sort of majority, is a very narrow minded approach.

Click to expand...

- Thankfully I have not done this. I suggest you read what I've written again.

I'm pretty sure that 99% of Muslims hate the Muslim extremists as much as you do.

Click to expand...

- And what do you base your opinion on? A hunch? Because scientific research begs to differ. It's nowhere near 99%. Support for bin Laden and suicide bombing against non-combatants has declined quite a bit in recent years in Islamic countries, but it's still at an alarming percentage. And if it's that high on extreme topics like bin Laden and suicide bombing, where do you think it is on for example blasphemy? How many people in the muslim world think that Kurt Westergaard should be killed for depicting the prophet? Or Salman Rushdie?

Top meltdown Saliph. It was a rollercoaster of laughing and shaking my head.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's comfortable for you to label it a meltdown. I don't mind being the devils advocate, that at least makes for a much more interesting discussion than thoughtless politically correct liberals condemning "racism" (as if an attack on a religion, a set of ideas, has anything to do with race) and xenophobia one after the other, without ever even considering the other side of the debate.

By reading your comments it seems you do not believe Islam and Western values can coexist

Click to expand...

- That's right, they can't (unless you're a hypocrite and cherry-pick scripture like the so-called moderates do). For example, both Sunni and Shia hadiths say that apostates should be murdered. That is obviously not compatible with Western values. Which means that a muslim must choose between the Islamic doctrine of death as a punishment for apostasy, or freedom of religion.

and according to that Muslims cannot embrace Western values until they give up their religious values. By extension if you cannot embrace something, you cannot like it - so it seems to me you think practicing Muslims hate the West.

Click to expand...

- They have to give up a lot of Islamic values and doctrines in order to embrace Western values, yes. Just like Christianity has been forced to.

A survey conducted by the Pew Research Center found relatively widespread popular support for death penalty as a punishment for apostasy in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).

What an idiotic statement. You see little point in debating with people with whom you disagree?

I think faith is by definition idiotic and stupid, yes. "Faith is not a virtue, and if it was, it would be the most overrated of all virtues."

Click to expand...

I have been debating with you since yesterday and it's clear you don't see religion and western values coexisting and you'd prefer these western values over religion. Maybe 'hate' was too strong but to call it an 'idiotic statement' is strange given what you have said.