Lemme, explain. The evolution on my drumming has gone from, "lets see how fast and complicated I can play," over to "what does this song need to sound good; how can i serve this artist." Ive gone from loving George Kollias and Derik Rody and Mike Portnoy, over to favouring people like John Bohnam, Phill Rudd, Alex VanHalen and (to keep with my topic) TOMMY LEE!!!!......and Rikke Rokket :p

So heres my guff. Alot of people have pretty much boycotted glam metal and any metal band that ever was or is galm metal. But with the influence of the music in my life, I gotta say, I LOVE hearing all those old glam metal bands playing their stuff. Sure the lyrics are a bit much and its not really metal. But I think that for the most part there were some great musicians in that era of music. When the dude from Twisted Sisters comes in with the drum intro to "were not gonna take it," Im like, wow, what a simple part, but so awesomely played. It served the song for what it needed. Same with the album, "Crack a smile and more." by posion, I LOVED hearing the drumming on that album, not to mention the awesome guitar riffs.

Most recently I got Live 8 2005 on DVD and went right to Motley Crue playing "Dr. Feelgood" and it was KILLER!!! Anyone who says Tommy Lee is not a good drummer does not know drumming. He is so solid. And considering it was only 3 musicians playing and 1 singer, they had such a huge sound.

I guess, besides my ranting, I wanna know, what do you guys feel about the glam metal era? Did it have musical merrit? Was it more than just a put on by MTV to you? And did the musicians have a genuine talent that you can honestly say has influenced your playing?

It was pop music. For the rock crowd. And some of those guys, were, and still are, incredible musicians. So much more so, than what they played, on their albums.

I saw an "after hours" NAMM show, one year. Simon Phillips was the drummer. Andy Timmons (from Danger Danger) was guitarist/MC, for the evening. And Andy Timmons shreds. He was so far beyond any "Danger Danger" thang .... but hey .... Danger Danger put beans on his table. Reb Beach (Winger) was another cat, who played that night. Totally off the hook. But again, Winger was his money maker.

Some people just love to hate. Whether it's jealousy, ignorance, or whatever. Who knows. Musicians can have amazing talents, but to make a living, they have to "dumb down", appeal to the masses, and be entertainers. That's where the money's at. If people aren't entertained, they ain't gonna throw any cash your way. For people who loved the glam metal scene, well, it was quite a scene, indeed. And for those who didn't/don't .... hey, buy something else.

__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)

Do people hate it? Come to Los Angeles, and you'll find plenty of people who still think it's 1986. LOL.

But do people hate it? Well, why do people dislike anything?
An album is considered very successful if it sells 1 million copies in the USA.

As of 2012, there are around 313,218,000 people in the USA.

So, a successful album means it only appeals to just under 1/300th of the population.

"Appetite for Destruction" has sold 18 Million copies in the US, which still means 95% of the population doesn't care enough to buy it.

Even the most popular music actually only appeals to a small percentage of people. Which means, by definition, most people don't like any one thing.

So yes, lots of people hate glam metal, because by definition, most people don't like any one thing anyway.

On the flip side, the genre has sold millions upon millions of albums. VH-1 classic still shows mostly glam era video on "Metal Mania." Many bands from the glam metal era still tour on a regular basis.

Anyhow, what already baffled me back then, and still does today, is how some bands ever got called "glam metal" to begin with. Motey Crue? Sure, they have a hardness to their sound, I get that.

Poison? I never heard anything remotely "metal" about them Rock? sure. But metal? I don't get it. Winger? Warrant? Metal? Their sounds were closer to Bon Jovi, whom no one called metal, even back then.

Like a lot of us late 40-something / early 50-somethings... this is the stuff I grew up playing. I was one of those teased up leopard skin spandex under my torn jeans shirtless drummers on Sunset for years.

I look back on those times and that music as some of the greatest times of my life.

We'd go see Xciter, then Dokken. We'd go see Greg Leon and Quiet Riot. We'd see the Crue at back yard parties, then at Pookies in Pasadena, then at the Starwood. I still have their self-pressed Leuther Records EP I bought from Licorice Pizza across from the Starwood.

Grand Avenue, Snow, Smile, Odis Lift, Kick Ax, WWIII, White Sister... the list of bands we saw or played with is endless.

I just got home from Japan today. There is a place in Tokyo called Disk Union. floor after floor of metal and punk discs. Stuff never released on disc here, or long long unavailable. I think I spent $200 in that place (or maybe $2000... I dunno. It was a pile of yen), and I had to drag myself out of there.

Priceless finds - bands I haven't heard anything out of for decades... now coming back to life on my iPod as I flew home this afternoon.

Oh, don't kid yourself... a lot of these guys could flat out play. But what is "great music"? Being a great artist? Being a great musician? Being in a great band?

For me, the memories of being in my 20's again - and all the amazing times we had were worth it. Fingering through hundreds of discs, wanting them ALL... just picking the most precious memories for my flight home.

I love hair metal. I love the songs, I friggen LOVE the guitar work, I love the over-the-top balls out live in the moment execution, I love the place it holds in history and in my own feeble mind. I love that we used to get dressed up to go out. Going to a club or a concert was an event... not a walk out the door thing. I loved getting dressed up to play. I loved having another personality to me during that time.

Music is one of those amazing things that utterly and completely depends on the stuff that came before it. As an influencer, as a validator, as a foundation. As musicians we all know this. Grunge is a response to Glam. Acid is a response to 50-s bubble gum. Most of the early rock guys came out of jazz and swing. Punk and Disco started as club music and spawned entire sub-cultures - influencing the rock most of us listen to.

I feel you, sbowman. IMO, the Hair Metal phase gets tossed off, spit on, laughed at, forgotten about, ignored, disrespected, and stepped over far too often. I'm a prog guy... have been forever - when Hair Metal was alive, my road took me that way. When it gave way, I moved back to prog and have been there since.

But of all the turnouts on this road I've been on, the hair metal glam metal turn out is absolutely my very favorite one. The music from 79 - 89 still shapes my playing today more than anything else. I can't listen to it exclusively... I'll go mad. But I love, love to come back to it regularly.

Glam is just like everything else in this world...misunderstood by most, then gains popularity, then goes into over-exposed, then onto the "not cool" list...disappears for a while then comes back around as old enough to be cool. Maybe it has to do with the age of the majority of listeners. I appreciate the music for what it is...fun, some cool sounds, nothing too serious. I do think it had it's place as a genre and there are several drummers who definitely made their mark with it.

I wish hair metal would make a come back! That was the music I played in my first band and I loved all of it! Probably why I can't stand Nirvana!

Every song had a killer guitar solo. Most of those guys will never get the credit they deserve because most people are afraid to admit they liked hair metal. Like it makes you less of a man or not as knowledgable about music. I proudly admit I love hair metal and still listen to it loud in my car to this day!

You ask people who the best guitar player of all time is and I'm willing to bet that Eddie Van Halen would probably be the most mentioned. But let me throw a name out there of someone who would have been just as big as Eddie had his music and health lasted...Vito Bratta! Say whatever about their music, but that man made that guitar sing! His solo's were melodic where most others were all about speed and high notes.

I love all kinds of music and respect almost all genres, but it seems people don't have the guts to admit they liked hair metal. Or never gave it a chance because they heard it was dudes in tights with make-up on.

Love it or hate it, they were all musicians that although they may not have played your favorite style of music, they still were talented enough to contribute to music. Which is more than I can say for myself and I'm sure many, if not most of the people that put hair metal down!

Too many stuck up music snobs that think they know it all! I'm not speaking of anyone in particular either, so don't crucify me too bad. This is a particular sore subject with me.

I wish hair metal would make a come back! That was the music I played in my first band and I loved all of it! Probably why I can't stand Nirvana!

Every song had a killer guitar solo. Most of those guys will never get the credit they deserve because most people are afraid to admit they liked hair metal. Like it makes you less of a man or not as knowledgable about music. I proudly admit I love hair metal and still listen to it loud in my car to this day!

You ask people who the best guitar player of all time is and I'm willing to bet that Eddie Van Halen would probably be the most mentioned. But let me throw a name out there of someone who would have been just as big as Eddie had his music and health lasted...Vito Bratta! Say whatever about their music, but that man made that guitar sing! His solo's were melodic where most others were all about speed and high notes.

I love all kinds of music and respect almost all genres, but it seems people don't have the guts to admit they liked hair metal. Or never gave it a chance because they heard it was dudes in tights with make-up on.

Love it or hate it, they were all musicians that although they may not have played your favorite style of music, they still were talented enough to contribute to music. Which is more than I can say for myself and I'm sure many, if not most of the people that put hair metal down!

Too many stuck up music snobs that think they know it all! I'm not speaking of anyone in particular either, so don't crucify me too bad. This is a particular sore subject with me.

Werd.

Vito was remarkable.

Good stuff. They're still in my playlist when I need a smile, and I can never play some of those tunes only once.

Good stuff. They're still in my playlist when I need a smile, and I can never play some of those tunes only once.

Thanks for your post... I'm off to go pop some Vito in right now.

-K

Bro, I went back a read your first post on this thread and it was as if I was saying it. I'm a prog rock guy as well. Sounds like we have very similar tastes.

Thanks for the back up. I'd love to be able to take some of that music and make people listen to it. I think tonight at my pool tournament, I'm going to put $20 in the jukebox and play nothing but hair metal just to see everyone's reaction.

I miss the Hair Days! A lot of good drummers in those times. Some of my favorites are Vikki Foxx(Vince Neil & Enuff-z-Nuff), Eric Singer (Badlands) and Troy Luccketta (Tesla). Tommy Lee is also one my influences. My favorite album of Tommy's drumming is "Hooligan's Holiday" great powerful fills on that record but I like the old Crue with tasteful chops and cymbal catches with the hand your hittting the cymbal with while playing. You can pick apart a lot of kool things from Hair Rock.. and don't forget the ending solo of Kingdom Come's "Get It On" that was almost as great as Bonham's "Rock & Roll" solo.

I miss the Hair Days! A lot of good drummers in those times. Some of my favorites are Vikki Foxx(Vince Neil & Enuff-z-Nuff), Eric Singer (Badlands) and Troy Luccketta (Tesla). Tommy Lee is also one my influences. My favorite album of Tommy's drumming is "Hooligan's Holiday" great powerful fills on that record but I like the old Crue with tasteful chops and cymbal catches with the hand your hittting the cymbal with while playing. You can pick apart a lot of kool things from Hair Rock.. and don't forget the ending solo of Kingdom Come's "Get It On" that was almost as great as Bonham's "Rock & Roll" solo.

I listed Troy Luccketa as one of my favorite drummers on a different thread. He's a great drummer! Someone else that doesn't get the credit he deserves is Blas Elias from Slaughter. He now plays with the Blue Man Crew in Vegas. Jason Bonham is also a great drummer. I love Bonham's Disregard of Timekeeping. It's definitely on my playlist!

I was 13 in 1981 when I got my first kit. Up to that point, I had pretty much grown up listening to the Beatles and Van Halen, but once I started drumming, it quickly became Rush, The Police, Missing Persons, The (Dixie) Dregs, Return To Forever, King Crimson, and later bands like The Cure, Big Black, The Cult, Scratch Acid, and the like.

I thought Tommy Lee was a super-badass drummer, but didn't care for his band. I even liked Rikki Rocket, but couldn't handle that band at all. Quiet Riot was a joke a could get, so I did like them, and Frankie Banali was (and is) a total beast. Loved his playing. (sold him a snare on eBay couple months ago - what a trip!)

Ditto for many of the other musos that were playing in those bands, especially the guitar players. Seemed EVH had really set the bar to a ridiculous height and all guitar players had that to live up to. But all the excess and showmanship really seemed to detract from something that I thought was important - which was the songwriting element. Such corny songs saturating the airwaves, I couldn't stand it. Didn't these guys ever listen to The Beatles? Didn't they learn that without a song, you're just an empty suit?

But what might have made the whole genre worse for me than anything were its religious-like followers. Man, these were the people I should have been getting along with since we liked many of the same illegal recreational activities and were total music heads in general, but because I couldn't get on board with what they were listening to, and because what I was into was relatively "lite" and somehow too serious, I became an outcast. The jazz crowd wouldn't have me either, since I was still a rocker. Oh well.

Anyway, I was over the moon when Soundgarden started getting traction, and bursting with glee when Nirvana put all the nonsense to bed once and for all. Finally, good players and good songwriters could coexist in the same band!

In general I dislike it... But there are some gems that I still enjoy... Appetite for Destruction, Operation Mindcrime, 1st two Ozzy albums w/ Rhoads... I could probably handle Dokken or Ratt in small doses if I had any of their CDs.

You ask people who the best guitar player of all time is and I'm willing to bet that Eddie Van Halen would probably be the most mentioned. But let me throw a name out there of someone who would have been just as big as Eddie had his music and health lasted...Vito Bratta! Say whatever about their music, but that man made that guitar sing! His solo's were melodic where most others were all about speed and high notes.

When they first broke, I really thought they stood out from the pack, and had potential to rise above the rest of the hair spray bands at the time. And then I saw them open for Ozzy, and the they put on a terrible performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeM

, and bursting with glee when Nirvana put all the nonsense to bed once and for all. Finally, good players and good songwriters could coexist in the same band!!

eh....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuo

In general I dislike it... But there are some gems that I still enjoy... Appetite for Destruction, Operation Mindcrime, 1st two Ozzy albums w/ Rhoads....

While those records tend to get dumped into the hair metal catagory by some, really, they weren't. The first two Ozzy solo albums came out before the Hair metal thing took off, and while Ozzy eventually adopted the hair metal look, he wasn't doing so at the time.

Operation Mindcrime musically had nothing to do with it.

Appetite was more a reaction against the fluff of the 80's hair scene, all though they certainly shared most of the same musical influences.

Here are some the arguments I've heard (some of which are valid and some...open to interpretation).

It's vapid

It's pejoratively simple in style and function

It's misogynistic

it celebrates shallow themes

It embraces rock's worst cliches

While I don't necessarily buy into all that, the 80s hair/glam material I own is considered guilty pleasure listening. For me, mostly because the lyrics can be so absurd. I'd be the first to admit there is some mightly talent in the glam metal ranks.

Although, for all its bad press there is clearly some need for catchy, riff-driven rock that encourages us all to booze up; get laid; drive our cars fast; get in a fight; rebel against 'the man.' (Not necessarily in that order).

IAnyway, I was over the moon when Soundgarden started getting traction, and bursting with glee when Nirvana put all the nonsense to bed once and for all. Finally, good players and good songwriterscould coexist in the same band!

Just so I'm straight and understand you correctly. Are you saying that there were no good players in the hair metal genre?

The songwriting was very shallow, I'll give you that. Most of the songs were about partying, you know sex, drugs, and rock & roll. But that's what they were singing about. They were all about partying and pissing off the parents. They weren't being serious, they weren't trying to cure cancer with their lyrics. It was all about a good time. So if you're looking for music with a deep meaning, then yeah, hair metal is not for you.

As far as good players...there's were a lot!! Many will never get the credit because of the genre they were in, and that's just wrong.

Everyone has their particular tastes in music. But I could NEVER get into the whole Nirvana thing. I can't stand them. Not because they're credited with killing off hair metal, but just because I simply don't like their music! David Grohl is very talented! Kurt Cobain had a lot of demons, but ultimately I will always view him as a coward. I don't even know the bass players' name. But one band wasn't going to throw me off of the whole genre. I loved Pearl Jam, STP, Soundgarden, Faith No More and AIC will always be one of my favorites.

A lot of people fail to evolve their taste of music. They fall in love with one style and the hell with everything else! It's really a shame because there is great music in every genre, and people would realize this if they weren't so narrow minded.

Now I'm not saying this about you in particular MikeM, because I don't know you. I'm just speaking in general. The only thing I was directing at you was the question of no good players in hair metal.

Anyway, I was over the moon when Soundgarden started getting traction, and bursting with glee when Nirvana put all the nonsense to bed once and for all. Finally, good players and good songwriters could coexist in the same band!!

For me there's always been good players and good songwriters in Glam Rock and Glam Metal for the last 40+ years, some where actually genius songwriter and very often very good players, if not virtuosos within the genre...

... let's have a little recap, some of these bands or artists have acomplished amazing musical status within the Glam genre :)

Everyone has a style of music that they just don't really care for. Rock fans hate country music. Country music fans hate hip hop. Death metal fans hate any other metal. Then they all get mad at other people not liking there type of music. Im sure there is a style of music you don't like. And there will be someone mad because you don't take their style of music seriously. Like what you like. Who cares. Awhile back someone was complaining because people don't like death metal. And they went on and on about how mistreated they were. I find most people into death metal very critical of other forms of music. Yet they get mad when people don't care for their chosen style. Who cares. Im selfish. I like what i like. ANd i don't even consider what other people like. Life is too short to care.........Since I'm ranting i also hate how it is cool to like jazz music. Im like of musicians in my area talking about how much they love jazz and how its their favorite music BUT......... they don't own a single jazz album and can only name one or two bands. WHY if you don't really like jazz or don't really listen to it......dont be afraid to say you don't like something.

But what might have made the whole genre worse for me than anything were its religious-like followers.,

Well, that's my problem with a certain 3 pc band from Seattle, who's followers some how got the media to buy into this crazy notion they were the voice of an entire generation and the most important music since sliced bread. Their music I could take or leave, I don't have much against it, but the over-worshiping of them is what makes my stomach lurch whenever they are mentioned as a band of quality.

Well, that's my problem with a certain 3 pc band from Seattle, who's followers some how got the media to buy into this crazy notion they were the voice of an entire generation and the most important music since sliced bread. Their music I could take or leave, I don't have much against it, but the over-worshiping of them is what makes my stomach lurch whenever they are mentioned as a band of quality.

That is the trouble with overexposure, isn't it? "Voice of a generation" and Cobain's comparisons to John Lennon were a bit over the top, I agree, but I don't think there was anything they could have done to prevent that kind of mania. Nobody in their right minds thought that record would sell more than a couple hundred thousand (not enough to even go gold).

The fact is, whether you like them or not, Nevermind was a totally unexpected breakout hit, and that one record completely changed the rock landscape - glam/hair metal went away and we're still suffering the pop-punk aftertaste. Sure, there were other bands like AIC, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, etc, but their commercial success came after Nevermind and their success came much more slowly. It's hard for me to imagine that they would have had nearly as much success if it hadn't been for Nirvana blowing the doors wide open for them first.

That's not fanboy talk, that's just the way it happened.

I haven't listened to most of that stuff since then, though I hear it all on the radio still but I think it's as tired as The Eagles or Fleetwood Mac (nothing against those guys). I much prefer listening to what's new (Band Of Skulls is on infinite repeat this week).

That is the trouble with overexposure, isn't it? "Voice of a generation" and Cobain's comparisons to John Lennon were a bit over the top, I agree, but I don't think there was anything they could have done to prevent that kind of mania. Nobody in their right minds thought that record would sell more than a couple hundred thousand (not enough to even go gold).

The fact is, whether you like them or not, Nevermind was a totally unexpected breakout hit, and that one record completely changed the rock landscape - glam/hair metal went away and we're still suffering the pop-punk aftertaste. Sure, there were other bands like AIC, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, etc, but their commercial success came after Nevermind and their success came much more slowly. It's hard for me to imagine that they would have had nearly as much success if it hadn't been for Nirvana blowing the doors wide open for them first.

That's not fanboy talk, that's just the way it happened.

I haven't listened to most of that stuff since then, though I hear it all on the radio still but I think it's as tired as The Eagles or Fleetwood Mac (nothing against those guys). I much prefer listening to what's new (Band Of Skulls is on infinite repeat this week).

True.

What is kind of odd/weird is Nevermind sold 10 million copies in the US, which is an incredible feat. I'm not taking anything away from that.

Yet, Def Leppard has two albums with sales over 10 million. Appetite for Destruction sold 18 Million copies in the US, not quite twice what Nevermind sold. Metallica's Black album sold 15 million, which is 1 and half times more than Nevermind.

Yet Nevermind was the trend setter that all those other bands had to follow, even though in terms of US sales, Def Lep, Metallica and GnR were all bigger acts.

"Voice of a generation" and Cobain's comparisons to John Lennon were a bit over the top, I agree, but I don't think there was anything they could have done to prevent that kind of mania.

Agreed.

It obviously didn't sit well with him either. Doesn't seem to sit well with anyone and probably rightly so. Dylan has been trying to shun the tag for nearly 50 years....unfortunately, poor old Kurt found another way round it.

It was pop music. For the rock crowd. And some of those guys, were, and still are, incredible musicians. So much more so, than what they played, on their albums. For people who loved the glam metal scene, well, it was quite a scene, indeed. And for those who didn't/don't .... hey, buy something else.

Lemme, explain. The evolution on my drumming has gone from, "lets see how fast and complicated I can play," over to "what does this song need to sound good; how can i serve this artist." Ive gone from loving George Kollias and Derik Rody and Mike Portnoy, over to favouring people like John Bohnam, Phill Rudd, Alex VanHalen and (to keep with my topic) TOMMY LEE!!!!......and Rikke Rokket :p

So heres my guff. Alot of people have pretty much boycotted glam metal and any metal band that ever was or is galm metal. But with the influence of the music in my life, I gotta say, I LOVE hearing all those old glam metal bands playing their stuff. Sure the lyrics are a bit much and its not really metal. But I think that for the most part there were some great musicians in that era of music. When the dude from Twisted Sisters comes in with the drum intro to "were not gonna take it," Im like, wow, what a simple part, but so awesomely played. It served the song for what it needed. Same with the album, "Crack a smile and more." by posion, I LOVED hearing the drumming on that album, not to mention the awesome guitar riffs.

Most recently I got Live 8 2005 on DVD and went right to Motley Crue playing "Dr. Feelgood" and it was KILLER!!! Anyone who says Tommy Lee is not a good drummer does not know drumming. He is so solid. And considering it was only 3 musicians playing and 1 singer, they had such a huge sound.

I guess, besides my ranting, I wanna know, what do you guys feel about the glam metal era? Did it have musical merrit? Was it more than just a put on by MTV to you? And did the musicians have a genuine talent that you can honestly say has influenced your playing?

1. Glam tries to appeal to people in a popular way;
2. Glam is about trivial matters like drugs, sex and fast cars;
3. Glam isn't about serious stuff like death, Satan or bad smells;
4. Glam doesn't take itself seriously.

Otherwise, Glam/Hair/But is just all all other metal and has its own sub-sub-sub genres.

I would really like to see a fusion of Glam and death metal. I think the Genitorturers were kind of like that.

Great list, Henri, though I wouldn't include Bad Company. The "in the beginning" bands read like a list of my favourite bands in the early/mid 70s (apart from the BCRs, and I didn't get into the NY Dolls or Iggy till later)

Never cared for the bands in the second list, apart from a few of their songs here and there.

If you're including Europe, then you probably should add Asia, and from there it's a short Journey to Boston and Kansas, and they lead us to Todd Rundgren and before long we're at Hall and Oates.

It depends on whether we're talking about the shtick, the music or both.