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WARMACHINE vs. IRON KINGDOMS [movie]

I had a little fun playing the ‘let’s cast the WARMACHINE movie’ game this week. I always love looking at those threads on the Privateer forums to see if other people imagine the same actors I do when I think about the characters in our games. Naturally, this is something I think about a lot, both because I’m making films of my own now as well as because just from a fan-of-films perspective, I’d love nothing more than to see an amazing WARMACHINE film done with a huge, all-star cast and an amazing director.

WARMACHINE movie = Epic metal on metal action!

Now before I go on, let me stress that there are no concealed hints here, no veiled teases— this is strictly my own daydreaming and theorizing, so join me in the frivolous flight of fancy, if you will…

If we had say, $150 million to blow making a movie, but we only get to make one, what would make a better flick: an epic WARMACHINE battle extravaganza, or a more focused, character oriented quest in the IRON KINGDOMS? The distinction I’d make here is that in the former, we’d be dealing with the political climate and the primary factions we detail in WARMACHINE, while in the latter, we’d explore the Iron Kingdoms with a party of mismatched heroes with no particular ties to the conflict between nations.

Now, I’ve got my own opinion on what I’d rather see if I only had one shot, but as I muse about this stuff, I see challenges and benefits to both approaches.

By its nature, a WARMACHINE film would have to showcase the grand battles between these magnificent and terrifying armies. Assuming we’re focused on at least one warcaster as our hero, there are inherent challenges in choreographing a story that does decent service to your central character. The reason for this is that there almost inevitably end up being a lot of characters in this story! And I know, because I’ve taken a stab at a couple of these WARMACHINE screenplays already. A warcaster is a leader of an army and part of a very big organization that has to be realized during our two hour limit. Because it’s a fantasy world, we don’t have the luxury of shortcutting the exposition because the audience possesses familiarity with the setting or time period. For instance, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN didn’t have to explain who the factions were or why they were fighting, or really even where they were. Spielberg could jump into a battle and count on the fact that most people watching that film would know exactly what was going on and what the greater stakes were. But when you’re crafting a world from whole cloth, you got a lot more ‘splaining to do. And that’s why these big fantasy and sic-fi epics can be so difficult to pull off – you have a limited amount of time and money to tell a story. Moments spent explaining the world or the politics or the science can take away from the time spent getting into your hero’s head or developing the relationships between characters. And in the case of a WARMACHINE film, you’ve got a minimum cast of your warcaster and his or her battle group (they may not talk, but warjacks are characters, too!), plus a reasonable amount of supporting cast that can actually speak words. The cast gets big, quickly. I’m over simplifying the approach, but you get the idea — to make that film we all see instantly in our head when we look at the tabletop is nothing short of complex.

Not to mention, where do you start? The setting has a clear bias towards who the protagonists are and I think it’d be hard to make a WARMACHINE movie without the inclusion of Cygnaran characters, but where do you go from there? Who’s your main hero and what forces do you pit against each other? Can you tell a story with Haley without including Cryx? How do you give a comprehensive overview of a world as big and complex as the Iron Kingdoms in just two hours? Again, I’ve spent way too much time thinking about this stuff so I’ve got my own ideas, but it’s not as clear cut as you might think.

The other side of the coin would be an IRON KINGDOMS movie. Here the wars between nations would be little more than a backdrop. We’d focus on a small group of characters, as few as just one, and we’d have more then enough time to spend on characterization. We’d also potentially get to see a greater cross section of the world, exploring cities, ruins, the history and the cultures that populate the setting. And while I’m sure we’d see some steamjacks, I think the thing we’d miss out on would be those huge battles that define WARMACHINE. The things that are truly iconic in the setting might never get touched on in a more quest-style storyline.

IRON KINGDOMS movie = super cool characters with ample time to do a sexy strut

It’d be a tough call! And as an aside, that’s part of the reason I’m so excited for the new Iron Kingdoms RPG to come out — I miss being able to explore those things about this vast world that we can’t fit the WARMACHINE stories into.

The truth is, these two things (WARMACHINE and the IRON KINGDOMS) aren’t really at odds. Many of the stories we tell in the WARMACHINE books are small, intimate moments, and every one of them is very focused on character. But in broad stroke terms, if you were to picture that perfect movie that represented each of them, I think you’d come up with two very different films.

What do you think? What’s your WARMACHINE or IRON KINGDOMS movie fantasy? What would you want to see in it?

Like I said, I’ve got my own ideas. Let’s see if I can make any of them happen!

Wait — what? Did someone in the back row just yell out ‘HORDES‘? Don’t worry, I didn’t forget. HORDES is a different animal altogether and I’m going to save that one for a blog of its own. I’ve got plenty of ideas for that one, too…

46 thoughts on “WARMACHINE vs. IRON KINGDOMS [movie]”

I really think I’d like a Warmachine Movie more, but not because its what I’d want to see. I really want to see the gritty, ruin filled world of the Iron Kingdoms. However, I really think that getting people into the setting you’ve created would be best expressed as an Khador v. Cygnar Film. While I’d swoon to see a Haley v. Cryx, Sharde Invasion movie, I think it’d be to difficult for the masses to accept. But, Sucker Punch and Mutant Chronicles were well done movies, and steam punk coming into the fore …

bah. In the end, I’d really, really like to See a Vinter/Magnus/Haley/Striker (Victoria was around then, right? correct my timeline if I am off) Schade invasion movie, because it would be so immensely cool.

Why not focus on Cygnar and Khador strife while the Cryx threat grows in the back story and eventually they’d both have to team up to stop Cryx from overwhelming them both? You could use Scyrah and Menoth as plot elements trying to deter Cygnar and Khador from taking their eyes off the real threat. Maybe even have Cryx overwhelm Khador and Scyrah to a degree and the four factions have to unite against the army of the Dragonfather? Then everyone wins… except Cryx probably. but you could have a story with the rise of Asphyxious and Terminus by the end of that film as well.

I don’t think that a single movie could do it justice. It would be better presented in the same manner that A Game of Thrones is on HBO, then you would be able to have aspects of all three, Warmachine battles, Iron Kingdoms drama and some hordes thrown in to mix it up now and again. I believe this would be the only way to go, plus it would be ongoing and able to evolve and change the way the game actually does. Anyway, that’s my 2 coppers worth.

I agree with the blog, both games would make great movies. I personally feel that the Iron Kingdoms would make a better movie in the end, at least a one-shot. Mostly because in exploring and adventuring you could explain a lot about the big aspects of the world and still keep the audience entertained.

Warmachine would make a great mini-series or full on tv show though. With so many characters, political intrigue and interweaving plotlines, I would love to see a full Game of Thrones treatment. Someone call HBO.

I’m with you! An HBO series would be amazing and would allow that full exploration of the setting from all angles. I think Mr. Martin will have that space locked up for the foreseeable future, though, which is okay by me because I’m enjoying the hell out of that series.

Very cool question Matt. I’d love to see either, but am thinking an Iron Kingdoms movie that led into a Warmachine movie might be the way to go. Would be cool if the former was an adventure with Rutger and Taryn. Easing into the background lore via an IK movie might make it more palatable to the masses, although I might be wrong there. It’s happened before.

I actually sat down and started writing out an anime for Warmachine… it ended up, as you suggested, more of an Iron Kingdoms thing, following a group of bodgers who found themselves in the wrong place, at the wrong time, when Khador invaded Llael. Bignames made several cameo appearances throughout, (for instance, Irusk ended up being quite the antagonist, and Ashelynn bailed out the group on more than one occasion) but in the end I always found it better for the story to tie the characters’ personal trials and tribulations to a villian invented just for the story, who could be dealt with appropriately without worrying on the ramifications on the larger Warmachine storyline.

Expanding on that a bit… I think making the characters Llaelese also allows you to have protaganists who are clearly good guys without dramatically favoring one of the Iron Kingdoms over another. It lets you portray most of them (except dirty, dirty Cryx) from a more neutral standpoint… Cygnar can use the invasion as a pretext for war to satisfy its own ambitions, Khadoran infantry can show their human side by shielding the central characters from the brutal conflict, etc. The whole idea is that while war is horrible chaos, those who fight it generally do so for good, honest reasons, and I wanted to stress that throughout the series.

I really like this post… it makes me want to start working on it again. 23 Episodes in most anime seasons could give me a lot to work with…

Use solo as a main character, do not complicate the plot to much. Use Warmachine part as an epic finale! In my opinion it should be like mixed ‘attack of the clones’ with ‘stardust’. And why not use some character from outside the big world (hordes or warmachine pirates) and during the movie you get to know the world with them. :]
And Matthew Vaughn for director!!

Why does a WARMACHINE movie have to be so big, broad and sweeping?
I think that was the problem with Transformers. The first film explained the war just enough to get the idea across and give you just a handful of autobots/decepticons and this was great! The later two films got too big IMHO and they overwhelmed themselves.
This WARMACHINE movie need only be about a lowly Apprentice Warcaster, kid just learning the ropes with his fresh new Warjack to grow with. Put this new kid in a few white knuckle skirmishes and you can capture the essence of WARMACHINE with overwhelming the story.
Heck, you could add elements of IRON KINGDOMS by having the Warcaster call upon the aide if adventurers in his missions.

You’re totally right. It doesn’t have to be a big, sweeping story, necessarily. But I think the question is whether or not the setting gets portrayed faithfully and accurately if you don’t get to experience the larger conflict. If we don’t see two armies clash at least once in the film, is it WARMACHINE? STAR WARS only had one big battle, but it was a good battle and delivered on the premise. If Luke and his pals had snuck back in to the Death Star to blow it up from the inside, I’m not sure it could have been called ‘STAR WARS’.

I actually would rather see an Iron Kingdoms style television show, honestly. I find that television is becoming an increasingly popular medium for these kinds of epic stories (look at Game of Thrones) and have the time to build up and expand on the universe for the audience. I do, however, think that a Warmachine trilogy would probably be the best way to represent the world on screen.

The first movie could be the Iron Kingdoms movie you discuss – characters exploring in the universe, perhaps becoming entwined in some deeper plot as they explore the world. I envision new characters, instead of the ones already in the stories, but they might eventually come across certain classic characters – especially Mercenaries. By the end of the first movie these characters have found themselves as a part of some bigger conflict and become integral to a greater plot.

In the second movie, the same characters would return with a new goal and have to explore the wild side of Immoren in search of something of significance to either aid or prevent the impending conflict alluded to in the first movie. In the course of their journey they could engage familiar characters from the Hordes universe and interact with the more primal side of the world. By the end of the second movie, either our characters have succeeded or have failed to prevent the growing conflict.

In the third and final movie there has likely been enough world-building, character development, and general exposure to the world of the Iron Kingdoms that you could create the kind of massive conflict represented by Warmachine. By keeping a cast of characters and the audience growing with them you have both a classic tale and a great lens through which to explore the universe so that the massive conflicts we like to represent in our games could be understood by those who might not otherwise be aware of the Iron Kingdoms at all.

Honestly I think the Warmachine/IKs world would be better served as an HBO series. This would actually allow us to see more of the grander workings of the world, and not force a large amount of stuff into such a short time frame.

Tho the notion of going big picture is inherently more interesting to myself, I can certainly understand the need to ‘bring it to ground level’ for the average viewer (factoring in not everyone, even the average gamer, has knowledge of the IK world at large). For that reason alone it seems the latter option is the wiser. However, it does not mean that the conflicts at large can not be revealed through creative cinema ah-la narrative montages, near brushes, or simply the fallout/trickle-down of such grand events.

The real trick would be finding a perspective that could deliver that view-finder. Someone in the vein of Pendrake, Eiryss, or some other wanderer who could see far more of the scope of the powers that be (whatever their motive may be). It’s kind of the perk of being a merc/freelancer; contacts and motive. It may even have to be someone who is created exclusively to deliver the story as desired, however risky that can be.

If you look at other examples of more grandiose, episodic tales you can see the wealth the lore of IK can lay down as a foundation. Stories like LotR, Game of Thrones, and even Star Wars throw down the gauntlet at the high/low of balancing world events with central characters. It’s all a matter of how pivotal you want the protagonists to be, and who is thus essential to move the plot. Sometimes they are the be-all, end-all of the story and in others it’s written with the understanding that it takes a kingdom to define a story.

Well, that’s my 2 focus on the matter. Certainly doable despite the pipe-dream class finances to execute. Hear that, Hollywood? There is not only the ready-to-go means but the potential demand/return out there! 😉

I’d rather see an HBO mini-series stretching multiple seasons, folding the IK and Warmachine into one braided narrative. Alternating between intrigue focused drama ala Boardwalk Empire and shell shocking Band of Brothers style intensity.

I know the thread is all about a movie, but really, the IK is too big a background for a feature length film. It doesn’t have the broad exposure for implicit grok, and it needs the slow boil to anchor the characters with the viewer. Dilemma is everything right?

How do you invest in the first 10 without some major backstory for all the casters and characters involved? Maybe with Haley and Deneghra at the center of the conflict, or maybe with the juxtaposition of technology and religion in a cygnar v menoth focus. But this kind of divides the whole realm of the IK and Warmachine into disparate parts.

Weaving them together forms a stronger anchor, and provides you with a nice narrative engine to build up to moments of sheer intensity and budget blasting sfx.

I think an iron kingdoms film would be great as you would be able to really get an insight into how the iron kingdoms tick. However, you could have the characters caught up or witnessing a mighty battle, perhaps one of the characters having a family member or friend in the conflict. just my opinion.

Interesting ideas abound. Realistically there is something that makes WM/H/IK so appealing. You focus on Character so much. Not character like a single person, but someone’s humanity, hubris, desires, etc. You make them people we can relate to in some ways. One of my favorite examples of this is a piece of writing from Wrath where Irusk corners an aged Cygnaran warcaster and is being respectful and honorable to the man. Irusk knows how hard this one worked to aid his country and respects him for it. This is the sort of thing the setting is fantastic for.

The fact is that there is a great opportunity for a story. Whether as a Movie, Series of Movies, Show, etc. How inclusive should it be? I don’t think it needs to be inclusive at all. There are a lot of really great opportunities. Time line can be left nebulous as well to allow for dramatic storytelling.

It could start as a really striking version of Red Vs Blue. Irusk is commanding a strong push into the Thornwood. He brings the young reliable [Strakhov or Sorcha] to the front line as a field commander. They crush a major supply point forcing Jeremiah Kraye to send word for help. Nemo makes the suggestion that Stryker head north with reinforcements to retake the post, unable to go himself due to [insert mention here of the wider conflict with the Protectorate, or Cryx, etc]. It could be a striking style (I reference style because I would see it more artistic like some of Sucker Punch or Sin City) allowing for a lot of drama.

Or you could go with a gritty feel. Imagine following Ashlynn and some of the resistance in Lael spiriting members of the resistance away from encampments of the Khadorans. It could be a tense, thriller with moments of explosive action. Less combat, more action. Think, Indian Jones in feel and flavor of story context.

Or! You could go full on niche…Pendrake could be the main character. He is trying to aid a small group of Cygnarans into the Marches to gather intelligence and harrass the incoming Skorne/Saxon Orik/Magnus force. It would allow for exploring the wilderness neatly. Black clads, Trolls, possibly even some Dragon Spawn. Maybe they find an Orgoth Temple? Maybe they stumble on a great ritual of Calaban of the Gatormen?

Really there are so many options but with the focus being the characters involved. Both hero and villain that we can relate to it would be amazing.

Nathan Fillion would make a great Rutger Shaw. OR! with a little CGI I could see him playing Jarl Skuld

I think an animation series, or series of movies, would be the best option to portray the whole world, but as Matt wants to film with real people, let’s see:

Iron Kingdoms regular series, half Band of Brothers, half Firefly. More Firefly, indeed, using a steam boat instead of a space ship, with some charismatic merc group travelling around the Iron Kingdoms.

This can be also a movie, the movie could be the pilot of the series, like in Galactica.

i agree with the HBO series, but i think a series of best-selling books first to get the general audience into it would be the best way to start, really i would love for some IK/Warmachine/Hordes novels.

I really do think that a movie is totally the wrong way to go with a Warmachine movie. Something down more along the lines of a “Game of Thrones” TV series would serve the setting so much better and allow a much greater depth of character. Also, that pesky need of centering on one character is no longer needed as you can place many into the spotlight with several story arcs seeing over everything. Like he said, with a movie you kinda get shoe-horned into central character and plot and by doing so in a movie based around a game with many factions, you run the risk of alienating the fans of those that didn’t get selected. Hailey would be fun story to follow, but just as much as her, so would that of Vlad, Feora, hell even Magnus and Ashlynn has interesting stories worthy of being told on screen.

I totally agree that the premium series is a great format for something as operatic as WARMACHINE.

But are you saying that if a WARMACHINE movie came out that didn’t feature your chosen faction, you wouldn’t want to see it? It’s one thing to make sure every player’s faction is serviced in a game because there’s the necessity to preserve balance in the play environment. But even in a premium series like Game of Thrones, I don’t think you could service every faction in WARMACHINE, especially when you start counting the sub-factions in Mercs. Do you think people would really feel alienated if their faction was represented in a different medium?

I’d use Magnus history for conducting the series, everyone loves Magnus, this should allow to show Cryx (Magnus hiring someone there) and the rest of the kingdoms while Magnus travels doing Magnus things. With Nathan Fillion playing Magnus if for whatever reason Bruce Campbell is not available

Hi Randall. Not everyone likes that back-stabbing, know you on your butt and shoot a missile at you, jerk that is Magnus. Although maybe because he eats my trolls and menites for lunch whenever I face him, lol.

For the record, I think that if a movie need be made, the whole Magnus-Caine-Vinter subplot would work best. It smacks of world changing importance, without horrendously changing the situation of the main plot, offers opportunities for big battles as well as intrigue and character development. Besides, Nathan Fillion would make a fantastic Caine. Fighting Bruce Campbell as Magnus. Get, say, Jeremy Irons for Vinter, and I think the internet would trip over itself to fund the thing.

I’ll echo the sentiment that the Iron Kingdoms would work well as a series. The place it inhabits in my brain is definitely informed by its origin as an RPG campaign setting. The same way I want to come back to my weekly campaign and sit down to inhabit the world for a few hours, I’d want to sit down on my couch with friends (or surf to Hulu on my lunch break) every week for another dose of the IK series. You’d get to sample the flavor of a lot of the IK from the characters in an adventuring party. Also, I have a strong feeling in my head that it would work well as an animated series with Mike Mignola-style dark lines and shading. I think Snoddy’s inks are responsible for that particular inception.

If IK had to be a movie, well, I’m rather enamored of the style in Guy Ritchie’s Sherlock Holmes movies. The ramping in those action scenes highlights cool little details. Action in the IK is full of cool little details that would be good to highlight in close-up slow-mo, like the handling of mechanika or arcanists tracing runes as they prepare spells. Picture a spotlight on the steps in reloading a breach-loading firearm: the spray of smoke and soot as the breach cracks open, the gunslinger’s expert draw of the cleaning brush and a couple quick strokes to scour out the chamber, tugging a silk cartridge out of its loop and sliding it into place with a rasping whisper, the toss of the wrist to snap the breach shut as the heel of the other palm whips around to set the lock. And then the cut-away shot inside the chamber as the round fires, the hammer punching through the silk and through the first powder charge to smash through the ceramic spacer, the powders conflagrating as they mix, accelerating the slug down the spiraling barrel…

I would have to go with an Iron Kingdoms movie on this one. As for why, think of it, people need to be really familiar with the back story of the factions for a political level story to be understood, and there just would not be enough time to pull that off correctly in a single movie. It would take to long to develop without making a whole series and even then would be very complex.
However with characters to focus on, a vague back story is fine. The first 10 minutes during the credits could give an overview of who the factions are and why they are fighting, and it would be plenty as long as that was not the main focus.

Look at Pitch Black and the Chronicles of Riddick. Pitch Black was good (Or at least better), it had a short overview of the universe, and then focused entirely on the characters and their struggles. Chronicles of Riddick was horrible, they tried to crowbar in several factions, and even though it had the same characters, it focused on the factions so much that none of the characters were ever developed, and they are were completely unrelatable. And since the first time any of the factions had ever been encountered was only hours ago for most of the audience, no one cared about them either.

I would much rather see a movie that introduces viewers to the iron kingdoms briefly, and then follows the story of say Alexia throughout those kingdoms and even shows her participation in some of the epic warjack battles. Then once people have a chance to become more familiar with the setting and the factions, have a Warmachine movie a little bit down the road.

SKORNE! Of course, that’s the anwesr you should expect from me, but still the Empire’s call is not to be taken lightly. Xerxis is ridiculous amounts of fun to run and Skorne offers a great variety of playstyles by using different ‘locks with a core of units. I run Nihilators under Xerxis very differently than under eMorghoul, and Arcuarii are great for setting up crazy charges by dragging stuff out of the way. trampletheweak.com

The way I see it this movie can go two ways: 1focus on giant robots and huge battles, something that would be fun to watch. In the end you would end up with something like transformers. That said I think that though it would probably make a lot of money it would be a total waste of the background of the iron kingdoms. 2 You can focus on the background of the world and put an huge epic battle only at thes rough and merciles hierarcy. The most interesting story would be there end of the movie. I personaly feel that the main caracters should be Cryx becaouse of is

What I see in regards to a Warmachine/Iron Kingdoms would be extremely dark and gritty, a massive battle, huge constructs and all the elements we know and love when it comes to the combat. It would tell a story of oppression and rebellion, slaughter and heroics.

What an entry to an ‘outside’ audience it would be, if a film were to give a breif glimpse into the Orgoth and the birth of the Iron Kingdoms. Not to mention the original constructs 😛

It should be made into an anime! It can tell a great story involving all fractions and it would be a lot cheaper than a movie or a TV series. It can bring the characters to life much better than a 120 min movie. And there are miniatures for Code Geass and similar stuff witch sell very good. And you already have those. It would be one hell of a comercial. And sorry for any bad spelling!

I love the idea of the story of a small battlegroup as you could really delve in to the characters themselves. BUT, Warmachine feels to me more like a story of nations. There could be room to explore the setting and tell the back story as to why we’re locked in the battles of today – really show people what the world is like and why peace isn’t an option. Politics could be played, treacheries planned… The people of the realms could be explained – how are their lives impacted as menacing iron contraptions patrol the streets? How easily are hearts corrupted, and what paths do good intentions lead to?

And if you’re thinking of Hordes as a separate project, there’s your chance to drill down to the smaller groups who are shrinking as technology encroaches on their lands. They already understand the strength in using smaller numbers to get the job done, and the travelling required to do so. You can tell the story of desperation as resources are depleted, and it’s just up to a small band to make a difference. Connection to nature and the elements can be illustrated stronger at this level, as the power of Fury is generated and fed from. (vs merely a power source in Warmachine) The end could go either way.. a small group fighting a powerful enemy against all odds, or rewarding perseverance as nations band together in hope.

That’s not to say you’d can’t just take those obvious decisions and flip them… Look at the Hordes universe from a political view, explaining how these warbands fell from power as technological nations were first contacted…. or to follow a small group from Warmachine with their gadgets and gizmos, wielding mighty jacks and weapons to tear down formidable foes, or having their toys taken away and having to make due with but the simplest of equipment.

I think you need to look at a movie like matrix or even alien. Start small and don’t introduce everyone to the world too quickly. Let the story and the big picture unfold as the story goes along … Letting each movie end with a teaser of the fact there is more than meets the eye to the whole story 8) … As for the actors … I always loved the ensemble unknown that was star wars … Let the movies make the stars 8) … Spent my dime …. Cheers….

I think you should bring sornke as it has the least significant cons and although the painting is much more details the end result ends up being so much better than if you were to have dull bland models with no detail. While the sornke may take a longer period of time its only to gain a better looking model, not like its a waste of time. I think sornke would be awesome for the tourney and you can have a very nicely painted army if you devote yourself to it. Not to mention you already did that pinning guide! Hope whatever choice you make you, your happy with!P.S. really tired so if this seems unintelligible I’ll be sure to recomment or edit Jason Windsor

My heart tells me to cheer for an IK movie, but I can’t escape my gut twisting up at the idea of another Dungeon Siege movie. Sometimes less story is good. Just drown me in awesomeness. I don’t feel like everything has to be explained, so long as the world itself feels consistent and believably lived in. I don’t think Saving Private Ryan in the IK would have to stop and explain the sides of the fight. Mutant Chronicles was good fun for what it was, but I think it trying to explain itself actually hurt the film.

I disagree about how obvious the protagonists are. I have honestly never seen Cygnar as “the” good guys. I’m not huge on the whole anti-hero thing and I’m not rooting for one in the Warmachine lore, but I would prefer one to being given a movie set firmly in Cygnar’s perspective. Cygnar makes me uneasy. I feel like their perspective is “we’re the good guys and that means we get to do bad things.” I hear that sort of sentiment expressed a lot from my inner circle of gamer friends, but I do admit that most strangers I meet at the table are more Cygnar friendly.