Before this turns into a PKK bashing thread, I would just like to point out that it would be worthwhile to consider the reasons why these women and men go to the mountains to fight against the Turkish army.

In the Turkish side of Kurdistan there came to be a form of radical nationalism based on Turkic superiority and that everyone withinin the borders of Turkey was a turk...this in itself is senseless considering Kurdish origins are Iranic from the Aryan Indo-European tribes while Turks come from Turkic roots based in Mongolia and so on.

The PKK is indeed a radical organization, but it is in my opinion (which is obviously biased considering I am a Kurd), that they are a response to the systematic oppression the Kurds faced in their own land. However, I will never accept that the Kurdish cause would need suicide bombers or an attack on civilians. For half a century of oppression that the Kurds faced in Iraq, they never attacked the civilians, they took their war to the mountains and fought the arab armies, they never relied on criminal methods of attacks.

The reason I have chosen these examples above others is that these have all happaned either this year or in the past few years, these are all events that happened when the turks have been "good" to the Kurds. This is nothing compared to what happened decades before.

I am glad to hear a forceful defense of PKK in this thread. I am Turkish and for years I lived with the propaganda that PKK is made up of nothing more than criminal thugs and bandits. But I have made many Kurdish friends in USA, and came to sympathize with their point of view. Kurdish struggle is essentially a struggle for self-expression, but Turkish society is not yet mature enough to hear all the points of view on this subject.

However, Turkey is not a fundamentally racist country. Several minority groups, such as the Bektashis and other Alevi sects, enjoy political patronage, and loud and vocal participation in the cultural mainstream. The difference between them and the Kurds, for decades, has been, as you rightly pointed out, the difference in economic status. Kurds traditionally were farmers and nomads, often poor and illiterate. So they became targets of a kind of domestic colonialism. The policy was to civilize the nomads, and to bring culture to the outsiders -- while forgetting these outsiders already had a culture they were proud of.

Times change, and Turkey is slowly changing right now. There is a great reawakening in all parts of society, and more willingness to come to terms with our past, and open the closed minds and ears. Call me naive, but I am optimistic about the future. Because multiculturalism is taking root in Turkey.

I was hoping to be a devils advocate since PKK threads usually turn very anti-PKK anti-Kurdish, I hoped that it would bring some background information as to why people go to the mountains.

However, Turkey is not a fundamentally racist country

It is, when it comes to Kurds and those who seek to express the Kurdish identity. This in turn causes a radical manifestation of the Kurdish identity which is symbolized by the PKK and their leader Ocalan.

Several minority groups, such as the Bektashis and other Alevi sects, enjoy political patronage, and loud and vocal participation in the cultural mainstream.

I'm not very up to date on my information, but is not true that the Alevi's still face prejudice, by for example not being able to write down their sect on their ID cards? Something along those lines.

The policy was to civilize the nomads, and to bring culture to the outsiders -- while forgetting these outsiders already had a culture they were proud of.

This is so very true. I applaud your sense and logic.

The essence of the problem began when one race was pronounced as a master of all within a land that has always had a mix of different races.

I really do hope that positive steps are taken and some sort of economic activity is undertaken in those regions, also that laws such as that of 301 no longer remain since that is the law that majority of Kurdish self expression has been criminalized upon.

Good steps have been taken since the courts have begun to incrementally started to speak about the massacres that have happened under the Turkish military's reign, specifically during the Civil war, the Ergenoken scandal has caused so many of Turkey's institutions exposed, and its only now they're beginning to question it.

The PKK is indeed a radical organization, but it is in my opinion (which is obviously biased considering I am a Kurd), that they are a response to the systematic oppression the Kurds faced in their own land. However, I will never accept that the Kurdish cause would need suicide bombers or an attack on civilians. For half a century of oppression that the Kurds faced in Iraq, they never attacked the civilians, they took their war to the mountains and fought the arab armies, they never relied on criminal methods of attacks.

You're a credit to national-liberation movements, specifically yours. Keep up the good fight.

That's fine, but it's no excuse to slaughter innocents as the PKK has done. Sorry.

I agree, it never is.

However, I am hoping that people actually understand that when people mention "The war launched by the PKK killed this many people" that people actually consider that it was a war with two fronts one from the turkish army and one from the PKK's side. We seldom hear about the other side, it's usually the guerilla's who get fingers pointed out and called terrorists and agressors.

Kurds being oppressed? Turgut Ozal, the 8th president of Turkey was Kurdish. There are parliament member spouses currently fighting against Turkish military in those mountains without getting locked up. This is equivalent to a al-qaeda member to be in the Congress. 20 Kurdish rebels surrendered just recently and didnt even serve a day in prison. This is done just to please you ungrateful puppets called Kurdish nation and you still talking about oppression. Get over yourself stop following your feudal war lords, religious nutcase shaikhs and stop killing your young women in the name of honor killings and finally get some education so you can train your own doctors, teachers, engineers, so young turkish people doesnt have to go there to be slaughtered by these animals called PKK.

It's really interesting to see the similarities to Latin America - just paging through it felt like pictures from Nicaragua or anywhere down South. You can really see the cultural influence of the Cold-war era meddling from Soviet and American powers.

I wasn't looking for something more specific, I was looking for something more substantial. People wear fatigues because they're fighting. That's what fatigues are for. Women fight because there's no reason the shouldn't, they carry the guns they carry because those are the guns that they can get hold of, they have pictures of their leaders on walls because literally everyone does that and has done since fucking forever.

The parallels you note are, frankly, utterly superficial. From these facile observations you draw conclusions about "Soviet and American Meddling" of which you offer no examples.

Certainly the USSR will have had a soft spot, and possibly a little pocket money for any organization with "worker's" in the name, and Turkey was and remains a key NATO member, but to suggest anthing in those pictures is attributable to "Cold War meddling" is balderdash. Exactly the sort of knowlegable-sounding Chomsky-esque bull that gets eaten up here, but ultimately completely lacking in insight and unsupported by any real understanding of the issues.

That’s a huge stretch, Glenn Beck. None of this has anything to do with lasting cultural influences from Cold War-era meddling except maybe, indirectly, the presence of AKs, which are popular across the world in any case.

It’s disappointing that the comment calling you out for your proud ignorance got pounded into the ground, but Reddit is not a particularly intelligent crowd.

Communist ideology is not the same as Soviet meddling. Communism preceded the Soviet Union and the ideology has survived it. The PKK's own ideology and material support owes more to Baathist Iraq and , especially, Syria. But don't mind that, make a facile observation and enjoy your upvotes.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with the characteristics of the PKK’s style of guerilla warfare, which aren’t limited to Soviet-influenced and -inspired revolutionary groups. Do olive fatigues indicate Communist influence? Does Gaddafi choose female bodyguards because he’s a leftist revolutionary? OP’s comment was silly and just ridiculously superficial.

Correct, although you could at least say why... anyhow per the Wikipedia article: "The magazine used on the PSL differs from that of Dragunov models in that it is stamped with an X shaped pattern on the side, rather than the waffle style stamp found on the Russian and Chinese magazines. The magazines, though they look similar in shape and size, are not interchangeable between the Dragunov and PSL without modification."

WASHINGTON, Feb 4 (Reuters) - The U.S. Treasury on Wednesday branded the Kurdish group PJAK, whose guerrillas fight against government forces in Iran's Kurdish-populated areas, as a terrorist organization.

The Kurdish rebellion began in the founding years of the Turkey. The Kurds were opposed to the abolition of the Caliphate. They've always been much more religiously conservative than the Turks. The nationalistic part is a very recent addition.

Well there is a group of Kurds who do indeed follow the "Cult of Angels" or Yazdani's but they aren't the majority. However Kurds have always been known for being non strict muslims. Here is a recent report done by the BBC with regards to this...Also, there are numerous journals and documents dating some 150 to 200 years ago of foreign travelers going through Kurdistan and surprised at how irreligious the Kurds were, some even openly admitted they would only seem observant of religion in order to seem like good Ottomans. Priests loved these guys.

However, I am glad you've found Kurdistanica there are some amazingly insightful articles on there. Specifically those written by Prof. Mehrdad Izady.

Today, the majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslim, belonging to the Shafi school. Mystical practices and participation in Sufi orders are also widespread among Kurds.[82] There is also a minority of Kurds who are Shia Muslims, primarily living in the Ilam and Kermanshah provinces of Iran, Central and south eastern Iraq (Fayli Kurds).

I recognize that fact. But that statement is like saying the majority of U.S. citizens are Protestant and ignoring the Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc. Also, the entry also mentions two of the branches of the Cult of Angels immediately below the paragraph you cite.

The self determination of a people that has the firepower to achieve it and the political stabillity to sustain it is never unreasonable.

Guns + Means = Revolution?

The idea that someone is part of a "people" before he is a human being needs to be questioned. The reason ethnic insurrections occur is primarily due to ethnic or cultural discrimination and constraints placed on individual freedoms, so even with the guns and the means, there has to be a deeper issue at stake.

I don't know too much about the PKK and their ideology, but I've been to a party organized by one of their semi-legal external organizations in Germany. They had a book table there and it was half Abdullah Öcalan, half Noam Chomsky. They fight for what they call "democratic confederalism" which seems to be some sort of libertarian socialism.

so if they were organized into battalions and fought under a UN-recognized flag, you would recognize their right to defend themselves?

your objections are based on your personal context of who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are. I bet you don't think twice about the french resistance that killed fellow french civilians that collaborated with nazi occupiers right?

Guerilla fighter is just another term for pretty much the same thing. I think "terrorist" is a stupid, sensationalist word used to justify the U.S. going into war. I disagree with all the killing, but many of them are in it to defend their people and what they believe in.

Ok, so I hadn't heard of the word before the 911 thing. I never said I approve of war or killing people regardless of what they believe. In fact I specifically said I don't approve of the killing. Anyway, people have been targeting civilians since just about as long as there have been humans. The Crusades and the Vietnam war are just a couple of the better known examples. Or Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Don't tell me that wasn't to inspire terror. The U.S. bombs places full of civilians to this day.

Terrorists specifically target civilians. Guerilla fighters may do so as well, but then they are terrorist guerilla fighters. As far as defending their people and what they believe in, you could say the same thing about the Nazis.

The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization internationally by a number of states and organizations, including the United States,[6] United Nations,[12] NATO[12] and the European Union.[12][13] The organization is listed as one of the 12 active terrorist organizations in Turkey as of 2007 according to the Counter-Terrorism and Operations Department of the Turkish police.[14] Turkey labeled the organization as an ethnic secessionist organization that uses terrorism and the threat of force against both civilian[13][15] and military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal.

Don't fuck around with these girls. They are responsible for over ten thousand deaths.

Could you name a political organization based in Iraq that isn't responsible for over ten thousand deaths? Not that I approve of killing civilians, but it doesn't really seem possible to exist as a halfway stable organization in Iraq without causing a significant amount of collateral damage.

The point is no one has the high ground here. As a U.S. citizen I am partially responsible for tens of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq, and though it's impossible to get good numbers, I would expect that the percentages don't look good for my people either.

I completely agree. I've just been playing devil's advocate in this thread because it appears people think it's fashionable to laud the actions of any group that goes against a government, no matter what atrocities of their own they've carried out.

Personally I have a lot of respect for the PKK. Put it down to the two nights they put me up in their bakery if you like. But when I was in E. Turkey it really struck me that everybody in a 'professional' role, be it teacher, doctor, whatever, was Turkish, whereas the shopkeepers, farmers, etc, were Kurdish. It made me rather embarrassed to be British given that we promised them a country after WWII

We never offered a country to Pakistan or Bangladesh (It was all India, they split up themselves), Myanmar (we granted independence to the Union of Burma, Myanmar came about afterwards as a coup) or Hong Kong (which we rented and were kicked out when the lease was up).

I suspect the OP is talking about Israel who we didn't directly promise a country to but did support, although we did draw up borders for Iraq.

As I've had it explained to me, the temple destruction wasn't an issue between hindus and muslims at the time the british arrived. As I've heard it, the British brought these incidents up as reasons to separate muslims and hindus (as part of their divide and rule strategy) which led to their continued separation and violence between them.

oh he means israel alright, and despite the sad attempt at sarcasm it IS working out great. from a 4th-world shithole covered with swamps/desert going back 1000s of years, to perfectly normal in just a couple decades, to affluent and ultra-modern today.

I respectfully think that you may have misunderstood the Kurdish situation. The PKK are a left-wing separatist militant group operating primarily in Iraq, Turkey and Iran. They want a unified Kurdistan, but one ruled by the PKK. They've hijacked an independence and unification movement to push a radical left-wing agenda. At no point does the welfare or beliefs of the local communities in the constituent countries come into question. There are many kurds who do not like the PKK. The entire region is full of undue influence from leftists (Mostly PKK but also supported by other areas of local governments), Islamists (Iranian backed), Right-wing nut jobs (look up Grey Wolves, Gladio or Ergenekon), none of which are interested in giving the locals what they want, instead opting to give the Kurds what the group in a given region want instead.

The Kurdish issue is a highly complex one spanning countries that have all had a history of deep mistrust between each other and in many cases fought wars against each other. Each has played the Kurds off against each other to their own ends. This goes back further than WWII, WWI, even the before the Ottoman Empire.

I'm sure the people who let you stay in their bakery were nice people, but believe me when I say that there's not a single faction without blood on their hands there.

I must admit I've very little knowledge of the PKK's actual politics, as highlighted by my flippant remarks earlier, but what you're saying does seem to ring true as I met an Iraqi kurd a few months later in Iran who refused to believe any of the nice things I had to say about the turkish kurds and claimed they were terrible people who would kill you soon as look at you.

There's the whole thing with the ongoing trial, the grenades that keep getting found that are registered to barracks and the two generals in jail who are allegedly trying to stage a military coup against AKP. I first read about it when I was looking into Operation Gladio and the Susurluk incident (which for the benefit of other readers started with a car crash where amongst the victims were Istanbul's deputy chief of police, a locally powerful Kurdish politician with alleged links to the PKK and the leader of a far right political organisation with strong links to organised crime and a NATO-funded stay-behind counter guerilla operation designed to be triggered in the event of soviet invasion) - this linked organised crime, the police, the government, the PKK and far right ultra-nationalist groups and the military in an incredible conspiracy.

Doğu Perinçek - (who is himself linked to Ergenekon and left-wing socialist parties and no stranger to political prison sentences) wrote an awesome book called Gladyo ve Ergenekon (Gladio and Ergenekon) that's definitely worth a read if you can handle Turkish.

when I was in E. Turkey it really struck me that everybody in a 'professional' role, be it teacher, doctor, whatever, was Turkish, whereas the shopkeepers, farmers, etc, were Kurdish.

that's because an educated kurdish just migrates to western parts. why should he stay in his home city which is nothing more than an overpopulated village.

the turkish professionals you see there are most likely civil servants. (teachers and doctors working for the state) and turkish civil servants are rotated in the country with a lottery like selection. they must serve whatever location chosen for them for a period of time.

great to see this getting more mainstream press. What I understand from a friend working there is that the entire culture is equalized among the sexes. Everything is balanced with men and women, cooking, cleaning, killing.

wow what a love fest over a terrorist group here. jesus! sometimes reddit makes me sick.

kurdish people are more or less like the hispanics of USA. less educated, poorer yet a part of turkey. and pkk is a terrorist kurdish organization that demands seperate land from turkey (causing 30K deaths in the last 25 years).

if you believe hispanics have a right for having a piece of your beloved country which you fought and died for then you may feel free to support the actions of this fucking terrorist group. otherwise please just shut the fuck up!

EDIT: yo, downvoters, at least explain why you downvote and your sympathy for this terrorist organization. i know this place has a lot of libertarians but this is no "small group of ppl against the bad guys" business. and thus your libertarian love fest has no roots. i repeat, pkk is just a war mongering organization with the only cause being their ethnicity is different. they've caused 30k deaths and billions of dollars right into the pockets of weapon industry.

The Kurds are the largest people on earth without a state and they've been the victims of genocide why is the analogy false?

Because the conditions simply don't resemble South African apartheid. Read the damn history. It has a lot to do with the fact that the Europeans carved up the Middle East in a way that divided the Kurds into three or four different countries, none of which had a Kurdish majority.

Also first the Palestinians? Kurds have been around a lot longer.

The Palestinians got the analogy first even though the Kurds have been around much longer. Why? Because the Palestinian Arabs have become a cause celebre for the "weakness makes right" wing of the international left and humanitarian movement.

I'm not, Israel has nothing to do with the Kurds (in fact, it should be giving more support to the Kurdish cause considering Kurds and Jews have come from similar situations towards similar goals). My point is that "Oppression or suffering X is apartheid!" appears to have gone viral and become a meme. The value of X, and therefore the truth of the proposition, no longer seems to matter.

Well ofcourse it's not going be the exact same but then you can never make analogies. I like comparing things! sidenote I disagree with you alittle on this but I've learned my lesson and am not gong to debate history on reddit ;)

Dilsha, (as the most attractive fighter, is in the front), a PKK guerrilla, with the women of her unit in a valley below the Qandil mountains. Dilsha has been in the PKK since 1995 and has spoken to her family only once in that time