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I recently purchased the Galaxy II and Vintage D Piano Libraries from Best Service. All is well except when playing the Vintage D in standalone mode there begins to be audio dropouts after only 20-min. I'm having to reload the patch each time using (Restart button) but this is temporary until it returns. The library was installed on an internal 7200-RPM drive using a Macbook. I then dragged the library to an External 7200-RPM drive in the hope of solving this, but even on the external drive running nothing but the library I'm still experiencing audio dropouts.

Not being familiar with this app would i need to go in to Kontakt to modify settings ? such as buffer size or Voice Management ?

I actually have this exact same problem on Windows 7 64-bit. All my other (bigger) VST plugins are fine, like Ivory II and other Kontakt patches like Imperfect Samples and The Giant. But Vintage D is the only one that starts to give clicking sounds, but this only happens after around 20-30 minutes of the playing. I have to restart my VST host to get rid of the problem. I'm guessing this must be some bug in Vintage D causing this, especially if we're both having these issues across different platforms, and since my other plugins work perfectly fine.

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1980 Yamaha C7 from Rick Jones (http://imgur.com/a/duLJb)Kawai MP-10Previously: 2012 Young Chang Y175, which was quite impressive for the price

I recently purchased the Galaxy II and Vintage D Piano Libraries from Best Service. All is well except when playing the Vintage D in standalone mode there begins to be audio dropouts after only 20-min. I'm having to reload the patch each time using (Restart button) but this is temporary until it returns. The library was installed on an internal 7200-RPM drive using a Macbook. I then dragged the library to an External 7200-RPM drive in the hope of solving this, but even on the external drive running nothing but the library I'm still experiencing audio dropouts.

Not being familiar with this app would i need to go in to Kontakt to modify settings ? such as buffer size or Voice Management ?

Macbook 5.1 OS X Leopard 10.5. Intel Core 2 Duo. 4 GB RAM.

That is a pretty old Macbook. Is it a 2.0 GHz or 2.4 GHz? You can probably fix the problem by increasing the buffer size, but that will increase the latency. You might also look at the multiprocessor cores setting in the Kontakt menu. It usually works best when set for 2 cores, but with that old of a processor you might also want to try the single core setting. However, the description of the problem (starts after 20 min) sounds like the root of the problem is that your RAM fills up and then is paged out. Look to see if more than one virtual memory swap buffer has been created and if any page-outs have occurred. That might happen if you have other significant programs using RAM at the same time.

Another thought, have you updated to the Kontakt 5 player. That might have improved RAM management. Also upgrading to Snow Leopard (OS X 10.6) from Leopard might improve the RAM management.

More thoughts: I don't think that Macbook has a firewire 800 interface. If not, use the internal 7200 rpm drive while troubleshooting the problem. USB 2.0 is borderline too slow even for the Vintage D (which is easy on disk speed). You could also try increasing the pre-load sample size in Kontakt, but that could help or hurt in your case if as I suspect the root cause is RAM management. The important thing is to see if you are paging out or not.

More info: I see you weren't familiar with the app and wanted to know where to modify stuff. You make the buffer size change, the multiprocessor core changes, and the sample pre-load changes in the Kontakt Options menu. You can check for page-outs using the Mac Activity Monitor, which is a program in the Applications/Utilities folder. You an update the Kontakt Player to version 5 for free from the Kontakt website. If you wanted to update to Snow Leopard OS 10.6 that is available from the Apple Store for $19.99. Again, check for page-outs first to see if that is the problem.

Is latency an issue on the Mac? It's my understand that it usually is not.

If you are referring to key-press to sound latency, then yes, my understanding is that the Mac comes with low latency audio drivers as standard. However, that utility (above) is not measuring that latency - it is measuring the general latency of the system processes, which can in turn then affect the audio streaming. (and yes, ultimately require the audio buffer to be increased to avoid problems, which of course does increase the note-on to audio latency) I just wanted to make it clear that that utility is not directly measuring the note-on to audio latency.

How much free RAM do you have?I am running Vintage D with Kontakt 5 on a pretty old dual core laptop with win 7 x64 and only 2 Gb of ram. I found that setting the Instrument Preload buffer size to the max of 240kb (under options->memory) helps a lot. The "memory" section of the Vintage D module should show about 0.81Gb with halfpedal, silentkey and una corda selected.

I sometimes get clicking noises or dropouts after the computer resuming from sleep, but that is solved by reloading the module. Apart from that it is fine even with fast playing lots of notes across the whole keyboard range.

Note that this buffer is for the preloading of samples into memory. It is not the same as the buffer size for the sound driver, which you will want to keep as low as possible because it affects latency. (I use 256 samples which gives < 10 ms latency)

When you get a clicking sound, watch the top right of Kontakt as you play some notes, if the CPU or DISK bars turn fully white at any time then that is your problem. With the preload set at max, you should not have disk load problems if you have enough RAM to hold all the samples in memory.

Macy Quoted:I see you weren't familiar with the app and wanted to know where to modify stuff. You make the buffer size change, the multiprocessor core changes, and the sample pre-load changes in the Kontakt Options menu. You can check for page-outs using the Mac Activity Monitor, which is a program in the Applications/Utilities folder. You an update the Kontakt Player to version 5 for free from the Kontakt website. Again, check for page-outs first.

Thanks for that extensive info Macy, and to everyone else for your support.

Will not be altering the buffer size due to increased latency issues.

Multiprocessor is set at dual core.

Will reset the sample pre-load size and see if that helps ?

Also noticed K4 provides another option for loading samples in to memory using the KMS feature, could this be another option ?

Do i need to be running a library in K4 to confirm page-outs in Activity Monitor ?

Tried upgrading to Kontakt 5 from the NI website but got confused about the time limited demo mode. Can i not upgrade from K4 to K5 permanently instead of the demo version ?

As I understand it, that demo mode limitation in Kontakt player does not apply to a valid Vintage D install because Vintage D is affiliated with NI. So the demo version should be all you need.

The way this is worded is confusing (to me at least). If you have a valid registration number for Vintage D it will release Kontakt from demo mode. Without the registration number it would run in demo mode. It doesn't really have anything to do with a special relationship between Galaxy and NI. It would work this way for any vendor with a product that was designed to work in the Kontakt player. The player is free and only works in demo mode when the plug-in is not registered.

Macy Quoted:I see you weren't familiar with the app and wanted to know where to modify stuff. You make the buffer size change, the multiprocessor core changes, and the sample pre-load changes in the Kontakt Options menu. You can check for page-outs using the Mac Activity Monitor, which is a program in the Applications/Utilities folder. You an update the Kontakt Player to version 5 for free from the Kontakt website. Again, check for page-outs first.

Thanks for that extensive info Macy, and to everyone else for your support.

Will not be altering the buffer size due to increased latency issues.

Multiprocessor is set at dual core.

Will reset the sample pre-load size and see if that helps ?

Also noticed K4 provides another option for loading samples in to memory using the KMS feature, could this be another option ?

Do i need to be running a library in K4 to confirm page-outs in Activity Monitor ?

Tried upgrading to Kontakt 5 from the NI website but got confused about the time limited demo mode. Can i not upgrade from K4 to K5 permanently instead of the demo version ?

1. What is the buffer set at? Maybe it's way too small now.2. Try with and without multi-processor on. It might work better without it on your older Mac.3. But first Update to K5. The Player mode is NEVER a demo. You only use the Player mode with Vintage D. The same downloaded app file is also a demo of the full-version. That makes no difference to you. 4. Use Vintage D normally and check the page-outs before and after you start getting audio drop outs.

As I understand it, that demo mode limitation in Kontakt player does not apply to a valid Vintage D install because Vintage D is affiliated with NI. So the demo version should be all you need.

The way this is worded is confusing (to me at least). If you have a valid registration number for Vintage D it will release Kontakt from demo mode. Without the registration number it would run in demo mode. It doesn't really have anything to do with a special relationship between Galaxy and NI. It would work this way for any vendor with a product that was designed to work in the Kontakt player. The player is free and only works in demo mode when the plug-in is not registered.

No, the Vintage D has nothing to do with releasing Kontakt from a demo mode. The App is a Player (never in a demo mode) AND a demo of the full version. The Player is all you need for the Vintage D. You don't need the full version for the Vintage D and the Vintage D will NOT unlock the full version.

No, the Vintage D has nothing to do with releasing Kontakt from a demo mode. The App is a Player (never in a demo mode) AND a demo of the full version. The Player is all you need for the Vintage D. You don't need the full version for the Vintage D and the Vintage D will NOT unlock the full version.

I do not have Vintage D but I have other plug-ins, including Galaxy's (NI) The Giant, which behave as I described. The Giant runs in demo mode in Kontakt until it is registered. If Vintage D is any different I stand corrected.

Kontakt player is a player as you said but it is not a true demo of Kontakt full. It does not even matter whether the player is a demo of the full version or not. It has additional purposes and is utilized for more things than merely a demo product. The difference between the two involves the way plug-ins are written to operate with each plug-in's libraries. I am referring to plug-ins and how they work in one or the other.

NOTE: I had reworded the post Macy quoted after returning this evening. Apparently Macy was quoting the original post at the same time. Upon seeing Macy's post I restored my original post which I had written this afternoon. My reasons for rewording the post were to eliminate a direct reference to gvfarns post and to simplify my statement (in case anyone saw it all unfold and wondered).

In the context of this thread, there is not interest in the full version of Kontakt (which has tons of added functionality like building your own software piano). When we say Kontakt here we almost always mean Kontakt PLAYER, which is free. The interest in this thread is using the player without demo mode restrictions. Kontakt player works without restriction on registered NI affiliated libraries like Vintage D and the Giant. For other libraries it works in demo mode.

The FULL Kontakt will play anything without the demo mode restriction, but almost no one in this forum is referring to that version. It's very expensive and few here use the additional functionality. If you have it for some other reason, it works, but it has not been referred to in this thread except by you, Ampy.

In the context of this thread, there is not interest in the full version of Kontakt (which has tons of added functionality like building your own software piano). When we say Kontakt here we almost always mean Kontakt PLAYER, which is free. The interest in this thread is using the player without demo mode restrictions. Kontakt player works without restriction on registered NI affiliated libraries like Vintage D and the Giant. For other libraries it works in demo mode.

The FULL Kontakt will play anything without the demo mode restriction, but almost no one in this forum is referring to that version. It's very expensive and few here use the additional functionality. If you have it for some other reason, it works, but it has not been referred to in this thread except by you, Ampy.

This is a rather nasty tone of a response.

I was referring to the player until Macy brought up the full version.

I have no way of knowing what most people think of when they say Kontakt on this forum.

Look, Ampy, you keep being very emphatic about saying wrong things. That will naturally irritate over time, and it's getting worse. Let's go back to what I was referring to before.

Quote:

. It doesn't really have anything to do with a special relationship between Galaxy and NI. It would work this way for any vendor with a product that was designed to work in the Kontakt player.

and also your implication that Kontakt full will not play unlicensed libraries. Refer to the table on this page. It very clearly indicates that the full version will play 3rd party and unlicensed libraries and that the player will not play either (outside of demo mode).

There have been a number of 3rd party VST's designed to work with Kontakt that we have discussed here and we know that they will not work with Kontakt player regardless of their registration status (the first to come to mind is cinesamples Piano in Blue, but there are tons). I also have the personal experience of playing unlicensed and 3rd party libraries in full Kontakt, so I know you are wrong on both points. How you got that incorrect understanding I cannot imagine.

A 3rd party library (in case you remain confused) is one that is not NI affiliated, even if it is designed for Kontakt. It is that affiliation between Galaxy and NI that gives Vintage D (and other libraries that work with the player) the ability to be played outside demo mode

It's ok to feel like people are picking on you and get your feelings hurt, but if they are doing it because you are wrong and keep trying to "correct" people who know what they are talking about, it is very foolish to keep insisting that you are right without researching the matter further. So please don't.

Brain damage. You certainly implied exactly what I said you did. If you had previously inferred it, that's also wrong, but it's your own personal problem. Had you not shared that incorrect inference here, no one else would have been subjected to it and there would be no confusion on the matter.

But anyway, if you did not intend to say what I quoted you as saying, then that's good. It's just a failure to communicate. If anyone wants to know the answer to the question musicmad posed, they can ignore your posts and get the correct info from the other posters in this thread.

The interest in this thread is using the player without demo mode restrictions. Kontakt player works without restriction on registered NI affiliated libraries like Vintage D and the Giant.

Are you saying because I'm a registered NI user, i can download Kontakt player 5 without the demo restriction, and use it to play the Galaxy 2 and Vintage D libraries indefinitely ?

Tried all possible options in Kontakt to solve the Vintage D audio dropout issue but the problem still exists. I find I'm having to hit the Restart button every 30 min to re-initialize the audio engine to avoid the dropouts.

I'm very soon to be purchasing an iMac, along with this i will get a External Drive with FW ports, make a 2nd install of G2 and Vintage D on the new drive and run the libraries exclusively from there.

Strange because all other pianos in G2 play just fine, no audio issues, it's only the Vintage D that kicks up a fuss, and this is my favorite piano, typical.

Are you saying because I'm a registered NI user, i can download Kontakt player 5 without the demo restriction, and use it to play the Galaxy 2 and Vintage D libraries indefinitely ?

Tried all possible options in Kontakt to solve the Vintage D audio dropout issue but the problem still exists. I find I'm having to hit the Restart button every 30 min to re-initialize the audio engine to avoid the dropouts.

I'm very soon to be purchasing an iMac, along with this i will get a External Drive with FW ports, make a 2nd install of G2 and Vintage D on the new drive and run the libraries exclusively from there.

Strange because all other pianos in G2 play just fine, no audio issues, it's only the Vintage D that kicks up a fuss, and this is my favorite piano, typical.

As gvfarns already replied - yes, just download Kontakt 5 from their website and use it. All you need is its Player function and that is free.

I don't know the root cause of your problem, but as I said earlier, the fact that it develops after 30 minutes strongly suggests it a RAM management problem. i.e. your RAM is apparently getting used up and is not getting freed/reused as it should. Then eventually the operating system may page-out (write part of the RAM back to a disc drive to free up RAM space for more/new samples to be read from the disc). If the operating system is paging-out while new samples are trying to be read then you may get an audio drop-out if the new samples can not be read into RAM soon enough.

We are trying to help you but you don't supply information that would help us do that.

1) What is the size of your audio buffer (number of samples)? Increasing the size of the buffer provides more time for the samples to be read into RAM and could stop the problem. But if the buffer is set too big you will get noticeable latency so that may or may not be a useable solution.

2) Are you paging-out? Start the Activity Monitor program and look. It will take about 15 seconds of your effort to do that. Check the # of page-outs when you start using the Vintage D (it will probably be 0) and then again after the audio dropouts begin.

If you are having a RAM management problem there are multiple possible causes. You are running Leopard (OS X 10.5) which is 4 generations behind the current Mac OS (Mountain Lion OS X 10.8). It seems unlikely but there could be memory management issues between it and versions of Kontakt (4 or 5) produced long after it debuted. (Memory management tends to get more sophisticated in new OS versions which support mixed 32-bit and 64-bit OS kernels and applications, and new apps don't always fully test compatibility with older OS versions.) There are other possible causes, but it serves no purpose to speculate further.

If you do decide to buy a new iMac and an external drive, consider an SSD with a USB 3 interface. OWC has external 2.5" drive enclosures with USB 3 for $35, or FW800/USB3 for $67.50. A Samsung 840 SSD 256 GB drive is about $180. You don't need something that fast for the Vintage D, but if you ever go to Ivory II it is advantageous.

Your RAM is apparently getting used up and is not getting freed/reused as it should. New samples can not be read into RAM soon enough.

Why is that when i have 4 GB of memory installed and nothing else running in the background except KP4 and the Vintage D.

Quote:

If you do decide to buy a new iMac and an external drive, consider an SSD with a USB 3 interface.

The external drive i have is USB 3 but unfortunately the Macbook only supports USB 2. Are you saying i could use the same external USB 3 drive on the new iMac without the need for buying a drive with FW ports, would this speed be sufficient for the Vintage D ?

By the way, simpler question: have you updated your Vintage D library to the latest version? I think 1.1.1 ships but you can upgrade to 1.2 or something.

Good question. I noticed being a registered NI user there is an option in Service Center to upgrade KP to version 4.2.4. There is also an option to upgrade the G2 and Vintage D Libraries by simply hitting the download button. Has anyone here done this ? and what are the benefits and additional features in upgrading both the KP 4, G2 and Vintage D Libraries ?

Your RAM is apparently getting used up and is not getting freed/reused as it should. New samples can not be read into RAM soon enough.

Why is that when i have 4 GB of memory installed and nothing else running in the background except KP4 and the Vintage D.

You have a lot of stuff running in the background, you just don't realize it. Look in Activity Monitor and you will see. The OS is using a lot of RAM and programs (Kontakt, etc.) aren't designed to simply grab all unused memory and reserve it just for themselves. Memory management in modern operating systems is very complex. The sample set in the Vintage D is about 5 GB, and I believe they are compressed on the disc (although I can't find absolute conformation of that) and so can occupy much more RAM than that.

Is there some reason you haven't used the Activity Monitor and answered the question about paging-out. I've asked multiple times and quite frankly I'm about done trying to help you because you won't answer the simplest question that would shed light on your problem. I don't get it.

Originally Posted By: musicmad

Quote:

If you do decide to buy a new iMac and an external drive, consider an SSD with a USB 3 interface.

The external drive i have is USB 3 but unfortunately the Macbook only supports USB 2. Are you saying i could use the same external USB 3 drive on the new iMac without the need for buying a drive with FW ports, would this speed be sufficient for the Vintage D ?

By the way, simpler question: have you updated your Vintage D library to the latest version? I think 1.1.1 ships but you can upgrade to 1.2 or something.

Good question. I noticed being a registered NI user there is an option in Service Center to upgrade KP to version 4.2.4. There is also an option to upgrade the G2 and Vintage D Libraries by simply hitting the download button. Has anyone here done this ? and what are the benefits and additional features in upgrading both the KP 4, G2 and Vintage D Libraries ?

You absolutely need to upgrade Vintage D. There are bugs in the original release. There is no need to upgrade KP 4 (but no harm in doing it) when you can upgrade to KP 5 for free. Why haven't you done that?

The sample set in the Vintage D is about 5 GB, and I believe they are compressed on the disc (although I can't find absolute conformation of that) and so can occupy much more RAM than that.

Isn't it the case that the amount of RAM used is governed not directly by the size of the library, but instead, by the NUMBER of samples and the Kontakt pre-load size? (and the pre-load size, at least on Windows, appears to be constrained to a maximum of 240kB per channel = 480kB for a stereo sample)

I know that the operating system dynamically caches (using the file system cache, at least on Windows) the after-pre-load portion of the samples as the library is played, but the memory that is used for that caching would be released when required. So, I don't believe that this caching would "take up memory" - it is simply using the available memory at the time. EDIT: On second thoughts, I suppose that if the file system cache is NOT downsized straight away when required, paging could still occur.

I don't want to speculate on the specifics of what may or may not be happening with Kontakt and Leopard (a 4-generation old Mac OS the OP is using). You would have to be a member of the Kontakt programming team to know how it is designed. It is enough to know that if it is paging-out to the disc when the drop-outs occur, that is probably causing the drop-outs. I play Kontakt for hours with 8 GB of RAM and it never pages-out and there are no drop-outs.

In general, to try to answer your question generally, on a Mac there is active and inactive RAM. Active RAM is used by the system and apps. When there is data in active RAM that the app is no longer using it becomes classified as Inactive RAM. When more active RAM is needed the inactive RAM is swapped out if the app that was using it is still open.