"Ah, revolution, wow," Katz answers. "It's great to hear the word 'revolution' again. It's great that a song now costs exactly the same as a pack of gum and lasts exactly the same amount of time before it loses its flavor and you have to spend another buck. That era which finally ended whenever, yesterday -- you know, that era when we pretended rock was the scourge of conformity and consumerism, instead of its anointed handmaid -- that era was really irritating to me. I think it's good for the honesty of rock and roll and good for the country in general that we can finally see Bob Dylan and Iggy Pop for what they really were: as manufacturers of wintergreen Chiclets."

Q: So you're saying rock has lost its subversive edge?A: I'm saying it never had any subversive edge. It was always wintergreen Chiclets, we just enjoyed pretending otherwise.Q: What about when Dylan went electric?A: If you're going to talk about ancient history, let's go back to the French revolution. Remember when, I forget his name, but that rocker who wrote 'Marseillaise,' Jean Jacques Whoever -- remember when his song started getting all that airplay in 1792, and suddenly the peasantry rose up and overthrew the aristocracy? There was a song that changed the world. Attitude was what the peasants were missing. They already had everything else -- humiliating servitude, grinding poverty, unpayable debts, horrific working conditions. But without a song, man, it added up to nothing. The sansculotte style was what really changed the world.

I don't think a song can change the world. The modern world is pretty much immune to rock music. But it can reassure you that other people are, or were, thinking along the same lines as you. Like a political cartoon, for instance.

Susan Butcher wrote:I don't think a song can change the world. The modern world is pretty much immune to rock music. But it can reassure you that other people are, or were, thinking along the same lines as you. Like a political cartoon, for instance.

that and a dime won't even get you a cup of revolution anymore

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." — George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

I think music HAS and CAN make changes in society, the thing is it has to have the right people supporting the movement. It worked before, when love and youth and peace (and sadly left wing politics) in the 60's. Some were involved in politics and were able to make a strong complain, like the airplane with songs like we can be together or mexico, John and Michelle Phillips led the hippies into the Monterey Pop festival and during the Mamas and the Papas performance, you can hear Cass introducing John to the audience as "far left is John Phillips, geographicly if not to say polithicly" and the audience goes nuts, they were really leaders but they were smart, authentic people with ideals. Do you think Lady Gaga or Britney Spears or even Michael Jackson could have ever done something meaningful for society? No, but that doesn't mean music can't change, it can but it needs the right persons to lead the change. And they still are, Michelle Phillips was leading a campaign called "Impeach Bush" and Gracie Slick dressed as a muslim woman for a charity event after the 9/11 and the she removed that clothing and was wearing an american flag with the words "Fuck Fear". They still got it and I'm glad to see them doing it. Paul & Linda McCartney had strong feelings about animal rights and promoted it constantly.

The Mama's and the Papa's as the true leaders of the "Revolution"? What a distorted view on the past, I can only agree with what Ms G. Slick once remarked: "We were the best educated generation ever and since". Are you aware that the Moms and Pops were very distrusted by the participants of Monterey? Do you know anything about the pathetic personal life of John Pop?And yes, I do think that Lady Gaga may have a bigger impact on social change than all those "parlour-socialists". I don't think that a silly song like "Mexico" did contribute to anything, "We Can Be Together" did of course. Paul's van was stolen. Very funny. That's what you get penning down such ridiculous lyrics. Hopefully it reminded him of the fact that he was part of the establishment by then. He was living the life.Thank you OldBlue for trying to ignite some kind of discussion. Censorship, imposed or self chosen is killing.Where is my bottle of venom?

Yeah, I always thought of the mamas and the papas as a sort of leaders... why is it wrong? I always thought everyone loved them and that the Monterey Pop Festival was considered the best musically by the performers (Grace, Michelle and Eric Burdon always say Monterey was by far the best)... is there any information to sustain your afirmation, about them being distrusted? I really like Monterey Pop and I'd like to learn more about it! I don't think John's personal life is a valid point to scratch him off as a great lider, specially since his only PROVEN mistakes were alcoholism and drug abuse... I don't know why but I'm no buying McKenzie's story... Redbraid, are you really sure artists like Gaga can have a really positive impact or change society in any way? Look at the headlines: Gaga's meat-dress, Paris Hilton buying a mansion for her hamster and her cat being jealous... come on! I live in Peru and still this are headlining news in here, where people can barely pronounce their names! It's a shame, 'cause somehow people always look up to those artists. I'd rather have less plastic people and more people with ideals, even if they are far left ideals, they have a cause and fight for it and I think that's important.

JohnBSails wrote:No, i don't believe a song will do something. Not from Dylan, Young or anybody else !It is to simple ! To many of them did taste the sweet taste of BIG money. Paul Kanterdid something i just don't forget it. He did a promotion for Microsoft ! Any damn companyin the States would be more or less acceptable ! But Micro$oft ? NO mr.Kantner !

Why don't members of JA visit this forum?

JohnBSails wrote:And i hope that IF the president is a moslim... the other government people can stophim IF he likes to see a islam church on the place of the Twin Towers from the WTC NYC.The islam is NOT just a religion ! It is a way of life. And there is much violence in thekoran much more than a bible..

Spoken like a true Christian JBS. God Bless You!Just forget about the two mosques in the WTCs... For the record: Islam = Christianity = Judaism = MythBut everything else you said are right on the money. It is good to get some fresh thinking on this forum. Kudos to you!

Back on topic...I think people are not giving enough credit to the music of the 60's. Music can stir revolution, but only when people are receptive to it. The 60's went from potentially revolutionizing the way humans view the world to a fashion statement. Music didn't cause this, but people.The human race will go extinct without ever getting as close to fundamentally changing the way we live as the 60's counterculture achieved. Of course, to have expected anything else but failure from the human race would have been naive.

Susan Butcher wrote:There's some truth in that Grace quote. People under thirty seem to have difficulty spelling and constructing complete sentences.

Well, I wouldn't generalize... some of us do have trouble, mainly as result of the chatspeak mentality we all seem to have become somewhat enamored with. I am part of the minority that writes out every letter of a word, punctuates things, and uses capital letters for proper nouns and to begin a sentence. I'm not saying I'm always correct, but at least I try.

We are certainly a rather odd generation, I am perfectly willing to confess. I can only hope we don't lead to any sort of major revamping of the English language that would result in everyone writing like that...

Best educated generation? I'm not sure about that. Not to put down the generation in question, but what we go through in school has become very, very different over the years, and I might go so far as to call that an unfair assumption. We're being constantly pressured to overachieve in order for colleges to notice us, and as result, those who care about school are doing things high schoolers never have before. AP classes for instance-- some of us are doing college-level stuff in 10th grade. We're doing huge amounts of work. I was at a school last year where I had four hours of work a night, minimum. Does it make us smarter? I'm not a judge of that. Are we well-educated? Yes, for those who care to be.

Sorry if that ended up rant-ish. As many problems as I have with my generation, I do feel a certain loyalty.

JohnBSails wrote:You seem to forget to laugh... just look at Dormouse... the same...

You flatter me, I am not quite as serious as you let on...

JohnBSails wrote:About the 60s ;Because i like high tech, in the 60s there isn't high tech. Only good music.So, i wouldn't go back, even if it would be possible. NO thanx !

You have a point. Since I wasn't alive in the 60's and know I can not get there, I get absorbed in technologies to remove myself from what society has become. (Although according to some physicists, time travel may indeed be possible, but you could only be an observer - no changing history because nature frowns on paradoxes. But that's just as hypothetical as Schrodinger's cat.) However, if I could live another life, I probably would take the chance to go back.

When it comes to broken bones and bacteria, medical science has come a long way, but we still don't really understand the human mind. We know more about the chemistry of the brain, but the medicines aren't that good in my opinion. That's partly because of the ban on research imposed in the late Sixties. Anyway, I don't think meat, medicine, religion, or poor education have much to do with the question.

I would go back to the 60s in a heartbeat. No one is surprised I bet. The free love and make love not war was very real for a few years up to a decade. With no Aids and Herpes yet, it was a very good deal. That coupled with it was the only time you could have experienced peace in the neighborhoods instead of fights and gang fights and 5 on ones, if only for a few years. I would trade these things for all the technology and medical advancements. Everyone was serious about peace, walked the walk, and shared a common mesmerizing feeling that it was all possible. Back then people talked to each other face to face with more real communication. But hard drugs and the sheer numbers of us in the millions killed it. Too many people meant too many bad seeds. I was 20, Grace was 30 at the time of Woodstock...

Where have all the young men gone? Long time passingWhere have all the young men gone? Long time agoWhere have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers every oneWhen will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?