So riddle me this oh mighty Joe... so because an item can be copied then it is free... Ideas are easily copied but yet our courts are filled with patent infringements. Do you have any understanding of Intellectual Property (IP).

-patrick

That's not what he said.

He's making a case for a physical theft vs. a virtual theft being different, he didn't say anything virtual is free.

And Intellectual property is protected because our laws say so. Go somewhere else and I'm sure you'll find a different opinion (because after all, the concept of IP is an opinion).

Creative Content, Intellectual Property, Copyright Infringement are all part of the greater cancer that is theft. When I use a song in making Paintball Videos for here on PBN and not to sell it is technically stealing. I don't have their permission and the rights to use it. However, the content that I create with their music is not for sale and may actually help contribute to the sale of their music, ie promotion via highlight video. So what does one do?

What does that even mean? Because that is my argument. If some one puts money out in the hopes to make a return on their investment and is unable to because his IP is being copied instead of being purchased, than that person or band will cease in creating what you so willingly stole.

It really is a simple concept.

-patrick

__________________

CK2, Cereal Killerz The SequelSPONSORED IN PART BY: DRAXXUS BADLANDS INC. ECLIPSE JT USA EMPIRE SMART PARTS PSP FACEFULL XPAINT PBNATION
The CK2 Trailer Song is by The Transit War (The Only Evidence) http://www.myspace.com/thetransitwar

What does that even mean? Because that is my argument. If some one puts money out in the hopes to make a return on their investment and is unable to because his IP is being copied instead of being purchased, than that person or band will cease in creating what you so willingly stole.

It really is a simple concept.

-patrick

This is true. Starving artists and musicians will always be the norm.

In a digital age piracy makes it too easy. Some kids actually take it as a challenge to download things other folks can't. I am not sure how you educate someone who has no ambiguity on the consequences of their actions. They know it's wrong and yet they do it anyway because there are no direct consequences.

What does that even mean? Because that is my argument. If some one puts money out in the hopes to make a return on their investment and is unable to because his IP is being copied instead of being purchased, than that person or band will cease in creating what you so willingly stole.

It really is a simple concept.

-patrick

And whether you buy their music or not, that $$$ they spent went for recording time. They received their time in the studio and came out with their record. What they received from the $$$ they spent in the studio can not be stolen. They got their recording.

Potential profits aren't real, they're imaginary, you can't take them from someone. You can't steal the time the band spent in the recording studio, and you can't steal their pretend-monies, all you can do is infringe upon their rights to their IP, which is what is considered stealing, hence why it's illegal.

Creative Content, Intellectual Property, Copyright Infringement are all part of the greater cancer that is theft. When I use a song in making Paintball Videos for here on PBN and not to sell it is technically stealing. I don't have their permission and the rights to use it. However, the content that I create with their music is not for sale and may actually help contribute to the sale of their music, ie promotion via highlight video. So what does one do?

Johnny thats not your decision to make. However there are bands that have come to that same conclusion as you have and have freely placed a Creative Commons on their music.

-patrick

__________________

CK2, Cereal Killerz The SequelSPONSORED IN PART BY: DRAXXUS BADLANDS INC. ECLIPSE JT USA EMPIRE SMART PARTS PSP FACEFULL XPAINT PBNATION
The CK2 Trailer Song is by The Transit War (The Only Evidence) http://www.myspace.com/thetransitwar

Johnny thats not you decision to make. However there are bands that have come to that same conclusion as you have and have freely placed a Creative Commons on their music.

-patrick

All very true. It is not a justification by any means. I would like an avenue to be able to use their music legally, via a fee or website, where you can request use for that very thing. The only recourse for artists and labels is to take legal action and the problem there lies in the cost of pursuing the claim against the offender. For them it just doesn't make financial sense.

So what is your solution to the problem? Just say no?

Not trying to be argumentative, more interested in your thoughts. You did the hard work and went out and found the music, paid the rights, got the permission, and produced a product.

What are we as hobbyists and amateur video makers to do in regards to music?

And whether you buy their music or not, that $$$ they spent went for recording time. They received their time in the studio and came out with their record. What they received from the $$$ they spent in the studio can not be stolen. They got their recording.

Potential profits aren't real, they're imaginary, you can't take them from someone. You can't steal the time the band spent in the recording studio, and you can't steal their pretend-monies, all you can do is infringe upon their rights to their IP, which is what is considered stealing, hence why it's illegal.

you lost me bro...

-patrick

__________________

CK2, Cereal Killerz The SequelSPONSORED IN PART BY: DRAXXUS BADLANDS INC. ECLIPSE JT USA EMPIRE SMART PARTS PSP FACEFULL XPAINT PBNATION
The CK2 Trailer Song is by The Transit War (The Only Evidence) http://www.myspace.com/thetransitwar

All very true. It is not a justification by any means. I would like an avenue to be able to use their music legally, via a fee or website, where you can request use for that very thing. The only recourse for artists and labels is to take legal action and the problem there lies in the cost of pursuing the claim against the offender. For them it just doesn't make financial sense.

So what is your solution to the problem? Just say no?

Not trying to be argumentative, more interested in your thoughts. You did the hard work and went out and found the music, paid the rights, got the permission, and produced a product.

What are we as hobbyists and amateur video makers to do in regards to music?

creativecommons.org

-patrick

__________________

CK2, Cereal Killerz The SequelSPONSORED IN PART BY: DRAXXUS BADLANDS INC. ECLIPSE JT USA EMPIRE SMART PARTS PSP FACEFULL XPAINT PBNATION
The CK2 Trailer Song is by The Transit War (The Only Evidence) http://www.myspace.com/thetransitwar

Fixed; so that your post says the same thing but is slightly more enjoyable to read

I love that!!!

-patrick

__________________

CK2, Cereal Killerz The SequelSPONSORED IN PART BY: DRAXXUS BADLANDS INC. ECLIPSE JT USA EMPIRE SMART PARTS PSP FACEFULL XPAINT PBNATION
The CK2 Trailer Song is by The Transit War (The Only Evidence) http://www.myspace.com/thetransitwar

So riddle me this oh mighty Joe... so because an item can be copied then it is free... Ideas are easily copied but yet our courts are filled with patent infringements. Do you have any understanding of Intellectual Property (IP).

-patrick

I never said it was free, I said there is a difference. I do have an understanding of IP. My point was... both sides of thep rocess have money spent before the product/media is released. They spend a lot of money in hopes of getting something back on their investment. Then after that, they have to spend even more money on product to be sold. For cars, it's quite expensive, you're spending thousands of dollars on each product for a single person. But with media, it's your choice how you get it out there... Itunes which has no physical product, or selling CD's... which is fairly cheap in comparison to the car/ how much was invested in making the CD.

But when someone steals a car, they lost the money they spent on making that car. There's also the potential "profit" that could have been made off that car, but who's to say that car was going to be sold anyways? Potential profits we try to ignore because there's no way to measure them.

Now when someone downloads a song, they aren't taking any physical product, the artist doesn't lose money they spent on getting CD's duplicated, but they feel robbed, and I agree. The potential profit that could have been earned off that CD is gone.

Artist doesn't lose money when someone downloads a song, a Car dealership would lose money if someone stole a car.

The entire time, that's all I've been trying to say. And that's potentially why people don't feel bad about downloading music and that's where the problem lies.

They spend a lot of money in hopes of getting something back on their investment. Then after that, they have to spend even more money on product to be sold. For cars, it's quite expensive, you're spending thousands of dollars on each product for a single person. But with media, it's your choice how you get it out there... Itunes which has no physical product, or selling CD's... which is fairly cheap in comparison to the car/ how much was invested in making the CD.

and this is why one song cost .99 and a car cost 30,000. It's all relative.

Quote:

Now when someone downloads a song, they aren't taking any physical product, the artist doesn't lose money they spent on getting CD's duplicated, but they feel robbed, and I agree. The potential profit that could have been earned off that CD is gone.

Good so now you agree it is stealing a potential profit, which = $$$.

Quote:

Artist doesn't lose money when someone downloads a song, a Car dealership would lose money if someone stole a car.

And now you saying it is not stealing a potential profit ???

So what is it Joe...

Look I'm not telling you what to do... All I'm saying is, lets call a spade a spade, lets not sugar coat it. It is stealing and thats that, the sooner you can come to terms with it the better off we will all be.

So don't try and justify it to me. It's a black and white issue plain and simple. You are taking something that has a price associated with it and not paying.

-patrick

__________________

CK2, Cereal Killerz The SequelSPONSORED IN PART BY: DRAXXUS BADLANDS INC. ECLIPSE JT USA EMPIRE SMART PARTS PSP FACEFULL XPAINT PBNATION
The CK2 Trailer Song is by The Transit War (The Only Evidence) http://www.myspace.com/thetransitwar

Stealing from the STORE's potential profit, the artist already got paid for that CD. That's where the PHYSICAL part comes in because we have DEALERSHIPS and RESELLERS. When you steal the physical product it affects the stores/resellers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyWithaGun

So don't try and justify it to me. It's a black and white issue plain and simple. You are taking something that has a price associated with it and not paying.

-patrick

I have never once said that it wasn't stealing.

I'm saying that there is a big difference between stealing a car and downloading a song.

Another Ex.
If someone gives you a CD that they listened to but don't anymore, they never made a copy of it, they never ripped... etc. They just give it to you.

A.) You got something that had a price associated with it
B.) You're not paying for it.

Is that stealing? The artist didn't get anymore "potential profit" but you still got the CD and still get to listen to it without paying.

See where I'm trying to make a point? It's not a black and white issue...

And as someone else pointed out, there's also a flaw with the idea of an Ipod and paying for all the music that goes on it. If kids were to buy a 160GB ipod and pay for all their music, that's $40,000 which isn't really possible. Even a 4GB Shuffle is 1000 songs, that's still $1,000