i have just been watching the evening news and saw an interview with a young asian man who said that one day the black flag of islam will fly over downing street.

i understand that the fundamentalists are in the minority, but what concerns me is how much their power seems to be growing. does anyone else think that the "dream" of europe becoming muslim could eventually be a reality, or are there just too few followers for it ever to happen?

will the fundamentalists eventually win, and if they don't how will we have stopped them? because it just seems to me that every day there are more and more news stories about the hatred of western society and i am beginning to worry about it alot.

what are your thoughts on this one?

peace and love
stardust
xxx

matthew

07-02--2006, 08:34 PM

I'm hopeing the moderate voice wil prevail.. It is difficult to see who has the bigger voice at the moment.. All we seem to see in the media is the fundementalist side.. Wich looks better on the telly.. I think if their is a riot in my home town some time soon i might just start worrying.. So far the muslims i know just get on with life.. like me.

koolaid

07-02--2006, 08:37 PM

Is the idea of a muslim prime minister so bad? Is it any different from ay a fundamentalist christian being in charge?

I personally don't believe in any of the religions so would prefer to see religion kept out of politics but the way you wrote your statement could be interpreted as quite racist..I am sure this wasn't your intention but it did come across that way ( i.e keeping the muslims down)

and as for the news stories about the hatred of the west..DON'T fall for their game..That is exactly what they want you to think..A scared population of an imaginary enemy will produce more and more fear and intolerance allowing them to get away with just about anything..Just look at all the crazy shit pushed through Government after 9/11....

stardust

07-02--2006, 08:43 PM

Is the idea of a muslim prime minister so bad?

it would depend on whether the muslim prime minister respected my right to be a non-muslim.

i have nothing against a muslim prime minister being in number 10 so long as he doesnt force his religion onto everything else. a prime minister of any country has a job to represent the wishes of his people (not that he does that all the time) and seeing as the majority in this country would wish to be free to follow their own path then the prime minister would have to respect that.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

koolaid

07-02--2006, 08:44 PM

So why would a Muslim prime minister be any different....Is there something I am not being told about muslims??? When did you get the idea that a muslim prime minister would suddenly take away our freedoms and rights??

matthew

07-02--2006, 08:49 PM

and as for the news stories about the hatred of the west..DON'T fall for their game..That is exactly what they want you to think..A scared population of an imaginary enemy will produce more and more fear and intolerance allowing them to get away with just about anything..Just look at all the crazy shit pushed through Government after 9/11....

Are you MAD.. ?.. these events are going on all over the world.. thats a fact.. You think our goverment or any goverment is orchestrating this ?... Thats ridiculous. What crazy shit are you talking about ?.. the crazy shit that was 'watered down' or 'voted out'.. stop with ya' scare mongering.

koolaid

07-02--2006, 08:54 PM

Now you are talking bollocks!!! Ok so you go living on in fear of TERRORISTS....The big bogeymen who are coming to kill us all.....You are right though there is terrorism going on everywhere...I mean we are illegally occupying, killing and maiming thousands upon thousands of innocent peopl in Iraq and Afgahnistan...Israel is illegally occupying large parts of Palesteine as well..So yes there is terroism out there..PERPERTRATED BY FUCKING US!!!!

Do you really really belive that you are in imminent danger of a terroist attack..Pllleeeaaasssseeee grow up ....The IRA for years were REALLY bombing us rather than just our government telling us it was going to happen any second and no one reched these frenzied levels of hatred and fear then...

"Around the globe governments are planning new anti-terrorist laws. But what is the true aim of these laws? Many fear that instead of preventing repetitions of 9/11 etc, new anti-terrorism legislation will only serve to restrict basic freedoms and stifle any resistance against the war-mongering, money-hungry governments that pass them."

stardust

07-02--2006, 08:58 PM

So why would a Muslim prime minister be any different....Is there something I am not being told about muslims??? When did you get the idea that a muslim prime minister would suddenly take away our freedoms and rights??

i think we are misunderstanding each other here.

i took his quote to mean that the uk would become a muslim country (this was the context of the interview) and what he meant by the flag flying over downing street was not that we would have a muslim prime minister, but we would be a muslim country.

i have no objection to a muslim prime minister atall. i have strong objections to the uk becoming a muslim country when it doesnt want to be one.

i am not saying a muslim prime minister would take away our freedom and rights, i'm saying that if the whole country were forced to be muslim because the fundamentalists had won - thats what scares me.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

koolaid

07-02--2006, 09:05 PM

Fair enough..But I am sure there is very little chance of Britain becoming a "muslim" country as you put it....Sadly we are moving further and further to the right everyday and further and further away from really being free

matthew

07-02--2006, 09:06 PM

Now you are talking bollocks!!! Ok so you go living on in fear of TERRORISTS....The big bogeymen who are coming to kill us all.....You are right though there is terrorism going on everywhere...I mean we are illegally occupying, killing and maiming thousands upon thousands of innocent peopl in Iraq and Afgahnistan...Israel is illegally occupying large parts of Palesteine as well..So yes there is terroism out there..PERPERTRATED BY FUCKING US!!!!

I am not living in fear... i don't think the big bogeyman is comeing..
To a degree this is what it seems the media is perpetuating..and people like yourself.
Like i said i can't figure out what is what at the moment because the fundementalist agenda is being given more room in the media.. Possibly because it sells better..
Moderate muslims around the world and that POV do not sell ...

We are NOT illegaly occupying Iraq.. though thats a POV i guess.. i would go for ''previous resolutions [prior to 1441] gave us the legitamacy'''

Straying off the point though i geuss..

You seem to be a fundementalist with your views..just like some Muslims and just like some christians... I wish the moderate voice would prevail.. but i dunno.. who will 'win' in this...

If we had a Muslim PM it would ultimately come down to if that person was a fundementalist screaming ''Jihad'' or a moderate who accepts our way of life and what we have built up over hundreds of years.. He/She would be a UK citizen more than likely born and bread with moderate views.. Religeon i don't think would dictate policy.. The person to get that far up would HAVE to be what the people were feeling at the time..

Unless you think we are going to be 'taken over' then heck it won't matter.. and if thats the case our freedoms and rights.. would be long gone i am sure.

matthew

07-02--2006, 09:07 PM

Fair enough..But I am sure there is very little chance of Britain becoming a "muslim" country as you put it....Sadly we are moving further and further to the right everyday and further and further away from really being free

I reckon politics is straying into the 'middleground' but i guess we aint gonna agree :whistle:

koolaid

07-02--2006, 09:09 PM

I think you are arguing against some of your own points of view now....I am gonna leave the whole muslim terroist debate for now cos I have had it a million times before..

With regard to your last point that we are reaching middle ground..WHAT??? With a LABOUR government trying to pass a law that allows for unlimited detainment for people just SUSPECTED of terroist activity...and we say we are living in a free country...A free country where we want to lock pople up without trial.....Looking at the evidence we are moving to the right my friend and something needs to be done to stop the slide....

Oh and on your Iraq point it was, is and always will be an illegal occupation..The first time a European country has invaded another that posed no threat to us, that made no threats against us, had no means of attacking us and was a sovereign nation, since Germany invaded Poland in 1939...amd we all know what that led to..

Starke Ravinmad

07-02--2006, 09:09 PM

I suggest everyone do some research about the koran (quran) and then determine for yourselves whether it is or isn't a threat to us. What it teaches is what we can ultimately expect from the muslim population.

matthew

07-02--2006, 09:10 PM

I think you are arguing against some of your own points of view now....

Why?.

matthew

07-02--2006, 09:12 PM

I suggest everyone do some research about the koran (quran) and then determine for yourselves whether it is or isn't a threat to us. What it teaches is what we can ultimately expect from the muslim population.

I could read it 6 times.. it depends how you interprete it.. Osama interpretes it one way.. me mate up the road interpretes it another.

Starke Ravinmad

07-02--2006, 09:13 PM

I could read it 6 times.. it depends how you interprete it.. Osam interpretes it one way.. me mate up the road interpretes it another.

Have you tried?

koolaid

07-02--2006, 09:17 PM

The Koran ultimately (in my opinion) preaches peace...You can't make a statement that it tells us what the muslim population will do without giving your interpretation

matthew

07-02--2006, 09:19 PM

Have you tried?

Yes..but it is difficult not to be biased.. When i got interested in these issues i went down to the libiary and studied.. I asked people around me.. Heck i even visited a mosque. Everyone had a differing opinion.. mostly moderate.. but one lady 'nicely' told me i am going straight to hell [because i am a athiest] and only Muslims will survive to go to heaven..

So i am a STILL a little confused about the 'ultimate' view of Islam.. i guess it depends what part of the world it is taught and the views of the immans teaching it [who ultimately deciede how their followers interprete it imho..]

Ultimately imho Islam is going through a juncture in it's evolution.. wich path it takes is being fought tooth and nail i guess..

matthew

07-02--2006, 09:23 PM

The Koran ultimately (in my opinion) preaches peace...You can't make a statement that it tells us what the muslim population will do without giving your interpretation

It's not upto me in the end.. It's upto those that believe in the Koran.. Personaly i would tell 'um it's load of tosh..just like every other religeon.. This would not go down well would it ?.

Starke Ravinmad

07-02--2006, 09:26 PM

If the koran preaches peace, then we should have nothing to worry about. Unless the "moderate muslims" don't rise up and speak out against the radicals (which they haven't). Or unless all the passages about killing the non-believers and waging war until islam is the only religion in the world turn out to be the true driving force of islam.

jenni

07-02--2006, 09:30 PM

Originally the Islamic faith was one that aimed to be progressive, and tolerant of others. However, there was also the whole military conquest thing that was going on simultaneously, as they expanded in the early days, so that isn't too comforting).

There's like 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, and I believe that the majority of them will pull together and prevent the extremists from wrecking humanity for the rest of us. Islam is supposed to be about peace, and I do not think that a whole sixth of ther world's population will fall victim to stupidity in this form.

Also, in Islam tis believed that atheists can escape from hell if they repent or something - I can't remember exactly, but they are not meant to think that everyone else is damned for eternity.

Anyways, I think we're gonna be fine, this faith is growing and developing before our eyes, and Muslims are having to make their minds up about what they really think. Most of them, imo, are gonna stand up for peace.

matthew

07-02--2006, 09:42 PM

With regard to your last point that we are reaching middle ground..WHAT??? With a LABOUR government trying to pass a law that allows for unlimited detainment for people just SUSPECTED of terroist activity...and we say we are living in a free country...A free country where we want to lock pople up without trial.....Looking at the evidence we are moving to the right my friend and something needs to be done to stop the slide....

Unlimited detainment.. ??? do you me 90 days with judicial review every week ?.. If we had taken in people that we 'suspected'.. possibly certain events would not have happened.. Its a long and difficult debate.. that i won't win i am sure ;)

Oh and on your Iraq point it was, is and always will be an illegal occupation..

It has to be to fit in with your POV. have you any 'evidence' ?..

The first time a European country has invaded another that posed no threat to us, that made no threats against us, had no means of attacking us and was a sovereign nation,

since Germany invaded Poland in 1939...amd we all know what that led to..

Oh please not that.. thats so VILE...

God man ... Saddams Lies had you fooled... i guess his lies fooled us all ?.

matthew

07-02--2006, 09:43 PM

Originally the Islamic faith was one that aimed to be progressive, and tolerant of others. However, there was also the whole military conquest thing that was going on simultaneously, as they expanded in the early days, so that isn't too comforting).

There's like 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, and I believe that the majority of them will pull together and prevent the extremists from wrecking humanity for the rest of us. Islam is supposed to be about peace, and I do not think that a whole sixth of ther world's population will fall victim to stupidity in this form.

Anyways, I think we're gonna be fine, this faith is growing and developing before our eyes, and Muslims are having to make their minds up about what they really think. Most of them, imo, are gonna stand up for peace.

I agree with you

Also, in Islam tis believed that atheists can escape from hell if they repent or something - I can't remember exactly, but they are not meant to think that everyone else is damned for eternity.

I showed respect.. but i was not bothered .. i know whats happening to me when i die.

koolaid

07-02--2006, 09:58 PM

Unlimited detainment.. ??? do you me 90 days with judicial review every week ?.. If we had taken in people that we 'suspected'.. possibly certain events would not have happened.. Its a long and difficult debate.. that i won't win i am sure ;)

God man ... Saddams Lies had you fooled... i guess his lies fooled us all ?.

*sigh*..Ok Matthew you carry on believing all of the above if it makes you feel safe and happy....You obviously don't read anything on political law regarding a nations right to go to war, you don't know what is meant by the term sovereign nation (look it up in the dictionary and get back to me yeah) and as for the unlimited detainment that is what the Labour government were originally pushing for, it failed to get through which is why we have the 90 day rule now

stardust

07-02--2006, 10:04 PM

it's getting a little off topic here guys, (though still interesting) but what i was initially asking was do you ever see the fundamentalists winning and the uk becoming an extreme muslim country, (which is what they are calling for)?

that's the bit that concerns me.

even if the quran is preaching peace, it doesnt take away the fact that in some countries women have to wear black from head to toe and walk ten paces behind their men. before you jump down my throat for stereotyping, i know this is not what happens in every islamic country, but if the extremists got their way, this is what could happen here and that's what scares me.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

jenni

07-02--2006, 10:08 PM

It won't happen. This whole thing isn't subtle enough to bring about political control. If anything it'll degenerate into violence and the next generation will be scarred forever, but there's not gonna be fundamentalist Islamic rule over this country any time soon.

stardust

07-02--2006, 10:12 PM

there's not gonna be fundamentalist Islamic rule over this country any time soon.

i wish i shared that confidence!

Starke Ravinmad

07-02--2006, 10:13 PM

Not any time soon, no. But consider that the wealth of the oil industry makes these countries capable of arming themselves to the teeth, and consider the violence that has erupted from a simple cartoon in a Danish newspaper. Scary.

stardust

07-02--2006, 10:15 PM

add to that combination how many of those countries have nukes and i'm not too optomistic about the prospects for humanity.

Starke Ravinmad

07-02--2006, 10:19 PM

They are using political correctness to force the rest of the world to follow the rules of their religion. They're doing that today. Suppose some people get a wild hair up their arses next week and decide to burn some copies of the Koran. What will the reaction be to that? I predict that an event will happen that will turn moderates into radicals all over the world. It wouldn't take much. This stuff scares the crap outta me.

jenni

07-02--2006, 10:21 PM

add to that combination how many of those countries have nukes and i'm not too optomistic about the prospects for humanity.

If the nuclear thing blows up (literally) then we don't have to worry about anyone taking over the country....what with the being dead and all...

stardust

07-02--2006, 10:23 PM

there seem to be to be more and more people chosing to go down the radical route, and the law makers in this country are doing fuck all about it for fear of being politically incorrect.

if non-muslims were to march down the streets waving placards saying death to all muslims i'm pretty certain that they wouldn't reach the end of the day with no arrests.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

matthew

07-02--2006, 10:23 PM

*sigh*..Ok Matthew you carry on believing all of the above if it makes you feel safe and happy....You obviously don't read anything on political law regarding a nations right to go to war, you don't know what is meant by the term sovereign nation (look it up in the dictionary and get back to me yeah) and as for the unlimited detainment that is what the Labour government were originally pushing for, it failed to get through which is why we have the 90 day rule now

I'm just going on this

dic&#183;ta&#183;tor&#183;ship

The office or tenure of a dictator.
A state or government under dictatorial rule.
Absolute or despotic control or power.It's not 90 days..Thats what the Labour goverment wanted http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4422086.stm its 28 days now.. small error on your part ?.

I appreciate political law can be viewed in all manner of ways.. Kosovo was deemed 'illegal'... Heck even the Second world war.. I am just going on what other persons with more experiance have viewed this situation.. now it might just favour my POV.. and ?.. I can't argue international law .. can you ?.

Humble apologies for being wrong headed..

Starke Ravinmad

07-02--2006, 10:26 PM

if non-muslims were to march down the streets waving placards saying death to all muslims i'm pretty certain that they wouldn't reach the end of the day with no arrests.

You illustrate the problem very well. There is an inexplicable two-facedness about the whole situation. They can lop our heads off and march and protest, but if we insult them in the slightest way they go wacko on us. The forces in power need to ball up and stand some ground.

matthew

07-02--2006, 10:26 PM

Not any time soon, no. But consider that the wealth of the oil industry makes these countries capable of arming themselves to the teeth, and consider the violence that has erupted from a simple cartoon in a Danish newspaper. Scary.

I've seen the same scenes over and over and over... but i get your point

jenni

07-02--2006, 10:31 PM

Maybe we should have another march....everyone we can find....marching for an end to religious hatred - Muslims and non-Muslims together....

alas....no-one cares what the calm and logical folk have to say....

Starke Ravinmad

07-02--2006, 10:34 PM

Maybe we should have another march....everyone we can find....marching for an end to religious hatred - Muslims and non-Muslims together....

alas....no-one cares what the calm and logical folk have to say....

I'm all for it. If you can organize a world-wide "let's use out heads for a change" march, I'm there.

stardust

07-02--2006, 10:38 PM

You illustrate the problem very well. There is an inexplicable two-facedness about the whole situation. They can lop our heads off and march and protest, but if we insult them in the slightest way they go wacko on us. The forces in power need to ball up and stand some ground.

and those who dare stand up and point this out are branded as inciting racial hatred, or getting some other sort of bollocking. the two-facedness about all of this really stinks, and is also a large reason i am concerned about the extremists getting their own way.

no-one has the balls to stand up to them and it's scary.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

Starke Ravinmad

07-02--2006, 10:44 PM

There's a big nasty war a-brewin.

koolaid

08-02--2006, 01:11 AM

I'm just going on this

dicˇtaˇtorˇship

The office or tenure of a dictator.
A state or government under dictatorial rule.
Absolute or despotic control or power.It's not 90 days..Thats what the Labour goverment wanted http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4422086.stm its 28 days now.. small error on your part ?.

I appreciate political law can be viewed in all manner of ways.. Kosovo was deemed 'illegal'... Heck even the Second world war.. I am just going on what other persons with more experiance have viewed this situation.. now it might just favour my POV.. and ?.. I can't argue international law .. can you ?.

Humble apologies for being wrong headed..

Dictatorship has nothing whatsoever to do with it..It is a total different issue..Being sovereign means ruling yourself which Iraq was until we invaded..It only became sovereign again because we handed back power...

Again the government did have unlimited detention..Look at the Belmarsh prisoners http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3714864.stm...This was then actually declared illegal hence the 90 day proposal and then the 28 proposal..I was just shortening things in my last post to make it simpler for you..

To a certain extent yes I can argue international law...and as for WW2 being deemed illegal, Yes it was..Hitler invaded a sovereign country without provication or just cause.....Hmmm a few similarities popping up here...I am not saying the two are the same in any way am just using the extreme to prove my argument that the war was illegal..

With regard to the muslim issue..We live in a democracy so if a radical muslim government is voted in by the MAJORITY then that is what is favoured ....Again very unlikely to happen......

As for nukes....You are woried about muslims states using nukes when America is known to be implementing plans to use battlefield nukes and is the only country in the world (that currently has them) that has said it will use nukes as an offensive weapon rather than as a deterrant....And they have the craziest fucking chimpanzee on the planet in charge of theirs!! I know who scares me more.....

koolaid

08-02--2006, 01:17 AM

They can lop our heads off and march and protest, but if we insult them in the slightest way they go wacko on us. .

They have lopped off maybe 10 heads as you so elegantly put it...Remind me of the current death toll in Iraq of innocent civilians including woman and children..Ummmm well over 100,000 now. .....So we have killed well over 50 times as many innocent people as all of the terroist atrocities commited aginst us put together including 9/11..They are fucking people too...They fucking grieve deaths like we do...And here you are preaching about them going wacko on us...FOR FUCKS SAKE if anyone went wacko it was us after 9/11....

Imagine if everyday the muslim people were killing 200 british citizens..It would be horrible..Yet we are doing this everyday EVERY FUCKING DAY in Iraq...No wonder they hate us..What the hell else are they meant to do, they can't fight back conventionally.....

I am not condoning terroism but you are being so naive!

stardust

08-02--2006, 01:25 AM

i agree with you koolaid.

we are probably worse than them as far as death tolls are concerned. we are trying to force our system on them and they dont want it any more than we want their systems forced on us. i understand you are not condoning terrorism and i dont condone it either, but i understand why they are doing it.

doesnt make it any less scary though - the thought that one day we might be under islamic rule scares the fuck out of me. i aint wearing black and walking 10 steps behind a man for no-one.

just to clarify - i used the words us and them for ease of writing, not coz i see it as an us and them situation. i know not everyone fits into every bracket, but it just seems at the moment like the media has turned it into an us and them situation. i know that open minded people like ourselves dont take in every word from the media as if it was the word of god, but other people do and thats another cause for concern i feel.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

Paul

08-02--2006, 03:04 AM

I think the whole thing is getting so bloody clouded by the media that it's almost impossible to be rational about it.

Apologies, but i haven't read everything in this thread ...

To me, islam is a threat, but fundamentalist christianity is also a threat. I don't want any religious nutjob telling me what to do, no matter what side of the pond they come from ... and I don't want to listen to a press that is controlled by them.

The western media is controlled by corporations whose interest lies in profit, as long as the people are fed bullshit about the islamic threat then we'll continue to accept the government as defenders of our faith. As long as we do that then their profits are safe. Remember GW Bush claims to be a Christian, so does Tony Blair, The head of our constitution is also head of our church. However, very little of their practices are actually in line with the teachings of Christianity.

On the other side of the fence we have the islamist fundamentalists declaring all sorts of holy wars on us ... but remember, like us, the majority of people born into islam are not serious followers, they drink, they smoke, they realise that they are not perfect and they don't want to fight any more than we do. However, the ordinary muslim man never gets a say, he is not represented in the media. Most of the followers of Islam that I've met have been great people to get on with, polite, courteous and unassuming.

Islamaphobia is a valid cause to fight, because it vilifies all muslim people, it's an excuse for racism and totally unjust ... it's akin to saying all white men are evil because of the slave trade.

However, I am scared that standing up against oppression is now getting very clouded with standing up for the rights of individuals. Again I think the press is a major player ... pages and pages of protests and a few lines from some cleric condemning it.

To me, islam is an oppressive religion that seems to cast a black cloud over so many followers ... full of hypocrisy and self-importance ... I don't want to live in an islamic society and I will fight it to the end.

I also don't want to live in a world where the state is controlled by a greedy excuse for Christianity, also hypocritical and self important ... and I will fight that to the end.

I think that is the bigger threat to us.

EDIT.

Actually no, I don't wanna fight any of it, I don't want to be buying into any of this shit. We're not pawns to be manipulated by the greedy capitalist classes ... on any bloody side.

jenni

08-02--2006, 09:37 AM

Okay, so here's the solution: we all just sit back, relax, stop attacking each other, stop invading each other, stop treating each other like crap, stop whining about how the other religions are picking on us, stop picking on them, get of our fucking high horses and get on with our lives. Then we can stop worrying that our lives are going to be ended by some conflict between religions that hardly anyone really follows.

Tis a great plan, methinks. The only problem being that it won't happen....darn it! :mad:

phil

08-02--2006, 11:40 AM

I havnt read everything in this thread to be honest but i find some of things confusing. If britain was ruled as a muslim country or islamic state or whatever do you really think we could go out drinking, have festivals with alcohol, drugs and a degree of freedom (i know ilegal but still works) have women walk down the street dressed as they like and basically live like we do because i dont see that happening. And would they tolerate our religeons? Try building a catholic or c of e church in a muslim country and see how you go on! There's mosks all over now because WE OUR tolerant. seems like one way traffic to me to be honest.

koolaid

08-02--2006, 12:14 PM

I have muslim friends and they have never once tried to stop me doing any of those things you mentioned...Again you are lumping all muslims in with extremists...

phil

08-02--2006, 12:17 PM

I also have many muslim friends but i'm guessin like yours they're not running a country

stardust

08-02--2006, 12:47 PM

i have plenty of muslim friends aswell who aren't like this, but i think what phil is saying is this is what our country could be like if we were under islamic rule, which is what the extremists are fighting for.

koolaid, i get the feeling you are taking this post as if it were an attack on the entire muslim community, but it's not. i got no issues with any faith thats not trying to force itself on me. i was simply asking about the extremists, and whether anyone could see them ending up controling our country.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

Starke Ravinmad

08-02--2006, 03:35 PM

I am not condoning terroism but you are being so naive!

You seem pretty worked up about this. We disagree, I think it is you who is being naive. You should question the media as much as you question authority. Talk to people who've been to Iraq and you get an entirely different story. The only ones who hate us are the ones who believe their religion tells them to hate us. In December, muslim Iraq citizens brought Christmas trees to US bases for the soldiers to help them to be less homesick. Does that sound like they hate us? The majority are very appreciative of being rescued from a horrible dictator.

I think it's interesting how everyone has forgotten that before the invasion, the UN sent inspectors into Iraq to look for WMDs, and they were denied access to several sites. This happened numerous times, and then the US and Brittain said okay enough is enough, lets go in and take them. The UN said no, lets keep letting saddam fuck with us. So in that the UN didn't back it, it was illegal. But the UN didn't back it because they were being pussies, not because there wasn't a just reason. Remember, back then EVERYONE IN THE WORLD (including you) thought they had WMDs. That is why they were invaded. It wasn't an evil slobbering Bush trying to take over the world. It was the right thing to do. He had stuff he didn't want us to see. And the fact that no weapons were found does not mean they weren't there. It is highly likely that they were either very well hidden or destroyed before they were able to be found. Do you honestly think poor old sadam was innocent and the mean old world is just beating up on him? (*And before you say george w did it for the oil, the fact that I'm paying $2.50 per gallon today for gas proves that it wasn't about the oil.) Illegal war my ass. It has turned very ugly and things have been handled badly, but it was still the right thing to do.

And as far as the muslim religion, what we hear from the media and from our leaders and from the muslim leaders is that it's a peaceful religion. But read some of the book, they are commanded to kill us, take our women and children for slaves and divide our property amongst themselves, and do this until there are no other religions left in the world. I don't care what a person wants to worship, unless what they worship tells them to kill me. I do NOT condone islam, it's the most dangerous thing on the planet today.

koolaid

08-02--2006, 05:11 PM

HA HA !! I get it now the UN were being pussies thats why theY didn't want to go in...I now realise what a fascist/racist/bigoted viewpoint you hold and can breathe easier..[removed]

Can't take anything you say in this debate seriously anymore..[removed]! and the most dangourous thing on this planet today is George Bush and every fucking MORON! who voted for him!! PERIOD!

Just for the record I never believed Saddam had WMD'S....ever!! and no I think Saddam was an evil vicious dictator..but hey so are the Saudi's but they are our *friends* so that's ok I guess....Still doesn't give us the right to invade a country!

Atomik

08-02--2006, 06:44 PM

Personally abusive comments will not be allowed. It's a direct breach of our terms and conditions. I agree with your political point of view, but I won't allow this thread to descend into name-calling. Also, the thread's about Islam - not the war in Iraq. So let's keep it on topic please, before I have to start deleting posts.

koolaid

08-02--2006, 07:14 PM

Fair enough Dok..My apologies...

Starke Ravinmad

08-02--2006, 07:18 PM

HA HA !! I get it now the UN were being pussies thats why theY didn't want to go in...I now realise what a fascist/racist/bigoted viewpoint you hold and can breathe easier..[removed]

That's exactly the response I expected from you.

Atomik

08-02--2006, 07:39 PM

That's exactly the response I expected from you.Please don't provoke him any further. The thread's back on track now, and I expect both of you to play nice.

Starke Ravinmad

08-02--2006, 07:56 PM

I'm happy to let people have thier own opinions, and I find Mr. Koolaid's passion about his beliefs admirable. Consider this a virtual handshake and I appologize if I've offended anyone.

Atomik

08-02--2006, 07:56 PM

One post deleted. Please keep this thread on topic. There's plenty of scope for discussing other issues in other threads. This goes for views on all sides of the various arguments - off topic posts will be deleted.

Atomik

08-02--2006, 07:57 PM

I'm happy to let people have thier own opinions, and I find Mr. Koolaid's passion about his beliefs admirable. Consider this a virtual handshake and I appologize if I've offended anyone.Much appreciated. Thank you. :D

matthew

08-02--2006, 08:04 PM

Well: moving on.

I heard today a Ad hock meeting of islamic groups is being gathered together.. if anybody knows of this .. let us know any info .. much apreciated.