I think that's a fair point. There will certainly be a drop in sales because a portion of game buyers (not a large portion but significant enough to notice) do indeed buy games and trade them back in the same week. Plenty of my mates used to do it.

I remember back in the day when GAME were less business savvy, you could get a full refund if you took it back less than a week later and you could just keep doing it for months.

Although anyone who thinks game prices will drop if used games are blocked isn't living in the real world.

Exactly. I by no means am saying these groups of people represent the majority of gamers but when you put together all the disenfranchised people of always online + no used games you will see some developers unhappy with MS. It will have a shit install base compared to the PS4 and we'd probably see developers abandoning the platform. I know the guy that said this stuff is the creative head so its probably planned but all this negative publicity and feedback has to be making an impact on them in the boardroom.

04-07-2013

davin_g

They way you fight the decrease in "initial" sales is pretty simple really. You offer pre-order bonuses and exclusive content. Those that buy say in the first month or whatever will get stuff that if you wait won't be free or whatever if you purchase later. You may even say add a vita version or something to get those early sales but you heavily ensentivise early or day 1 purchases....basically those pre-order bonuses you see...just perhaps beefed up. You always have your hardcore day 1 fans...but to get others you give them something special to buy the retail version or buy it early...exclusive access or something. Then those that purchase later you perhaps don't give that offer to....and then you lower prices as you sell to those late adopters. You can still be very profitable even if you eliminate the second hand market for the gamer.

What you will definately see....is prices drop quicker because yes...initial sales will dry up quickly. What I see is everyone going to some sort of an activation code or something....a small developers fee to reactivate games so they get some sort of recoup for the game. The only thing saving this gen with these second hand games has been basically the dlc that developers have still been able to recoup from the second hand gamers....without it...man I would hate to see how many studios would close.

I do agree that if one console allows second hand games and one doesn't....it would be a massacre and it wouldn't take long for the other to change their stance. That said....I would be SHOCKED if either company did this on a total ban second hand games level...I think they will do access passes or some other form of it though.

04-07-2013

Two4DaMoney

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyn

Although anyone who thinks game prices will drop if used games are blocked isn't living in the real world.

I agree

These companies can charge less now but they don't. I assume it's because retailers have to sell the same games for $60 with whatever deal they have worked out behind the scenes. But lets look at it from a situation that no longer involves the retailers. Rainbow 6 vegas is out of print but it's found on psn. The game is so dated compared to other games released this gen. But that doesn't stop Ubisoft from charging $20. That game shouldn't cost any more than $10 right now. That goes for some ps2 games too. I can't comment on the prices found on xbox live titles(I never been in the online store looking around before)

I have no faith at all that these companies will pass on the savings from cutting out the middle man. Then they'd be making the same amount of profit which I'm sure they would rather put into their pockets. They already complained about next gen raising the cost of development. They aren't going to want to sell their games for cheaper. EA already stated that they want to sell games for $70.

I have a few games that I bought used. Most are out of print and not on psn. Those titles would have never been in my console if I had to buy them new. They simply weren't worth the full price or even the "greatest hits" price drop($30). Those titles are now out of print.

04-07-2013

mistercrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney

I agree These companies can charge less now but they don't. I assume it's because retailers have to sell the same games for $60 with whatever deal they have worked out behind the scenes. But lets look at it from a situation that no longer involves the retailers. Rainbow 6 vegas is out of print but it's found on psn. The game is so dated compared to other games released this gen. But that doesn't stop Ubisoft from charging $20. That game shouldn't cost any more than $10 right now. That goes for some ps2 games too. I can't comment on the prices found on xbox live titles(I never been in the online store looking around before) I have no faith at all that these companies will pass on the savings from cutting out the middle man. Then they'd be making the same amount of profit which I'm sure they would rather put into their pockets. They already complained about next gen raising the cost of development. They aren't going to want to sell their games for cheaper. EA already stated that they want to sell games for $70. I have a few games that I bought used. Most are out of print and not on psn. Those titles would have never been in my console if I had to buy them new. They simply weren't worth the full price or even the "greatest hits" price drop($30). Those titles are now out of print.

Very true. In fact sometimes I see older games on PSN and Live for download that I can buy for alot cheaper through retail. And the new games are still $60 a pop digitally. So theres no savings being passed onto the customer at all despite cutting out the middle man. And now these publishers are already talking about higher development costs so they can jack the game prices to $70.

04-07-2013

Serinous

maybe this will force Devs to focus on quality IPs and A+ titles... if used games are no longer an option and gamers are force to be wiser about what they spend money on....

that, or, Devs are just gonna make a bunch of FPS that they know will sell well.

either way it's bad for gamers.

04-07-2013

Typical guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serinous

maybe this will force Devs to focus on quality IPs and A+ titles... if used games are no longer an option and gamers are force to be wiser about what they spend money on....

that, or, Devs are just gonna make a bunch of FPS that they know will sell well.

either way it's bad for gamers.

I did t even think of this. Talk about a negative impact. You're right they won't want to take any risks.

04-07-2013

Admartian

I still don't get how preowned kills game companies. This logic seems inline with the Music/movie industry's (and gaming) logic for measuring "lost sales". As in, pretty much BS propaganda.

But hey, I'm not the one with an MBA in brainwashing people to endlessly give me money...

04-07-2013

Cyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by admartian

I still don't get how preowned kills game companies. This logic seems inline with the Music/movie industry's (and gaming) logic for measuring "lost sales". As in, pretty much BS propaganda.

But hey, I'm not the one with an MBA in brainwashing people to endlessly give me money...

That's the thing. Buying pre-owned games is essentially trading your old stuff for other peoples old stuff. Vast majority of people, me included, go in, sell them 3 or 4 games and use the store credit to buy 1 or 2.

Yes there's a blood sucking middle man in-between, and the amount they effectively tax you for the privilege is the real problem for consumers. But this is not lost sales for publishers, sooner they realise that the better.

04-07-2013

mynd

Frankly if it weren't for trade ins- I would have bought several new games recently. They were all bought with trade in's.
So who's going to be cutting who's throat again?

04-07-2013

Typical guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyn

That's the thing. Buying pre-owned games is essentially trading your old stuff for other peoples old stuff. Vast majority of people, me included, go in, sell them 3 or 4 games and use the store credit to buy 1 or 2.

Yes there's a blood sucking middle man in-between, and the amount they effectively tax you for the privilege is the real problem for consumers. But this is not lost sales for publishers, sooner they realise that the better.

They're making some flawed assumptions for sure. Let's say Tomb Raider sold 3.4 million in a couple weeks (it did). Then let's assume there were 600k used sales worldwide (I don't know the true number here - this is for explanation only). The devs see this and say, "we lost 600k sales". These guys buying used are paying what, maybe 10 or 15 less than retail? Then combine with this the fact that you have 600k consumers that sell ASAP after launch while prices are up. Those trade in/ebay sellers aren't going to be buying at the full retail price now. If I buy games at $60 the. Trade in for $35 that means my true purchase price is $25. So for a lot of these people sales will be pushed out 6-12 months. Then the guys buying used are going to wait till the games are maybe $40. Are they really making more off two games sold for a total of 60 or 65? Then of course these sales are going to be spread over a much longer time period which isn't what devs want. Tomb raider was deemed a "failure" because it "only" sold 3.4 million copies in two weeks.

And let's out this hypothetical out here:
Assume you own the nextbox and ps4. Nextbox does t support used and ps4 does. Which console will you buy games for? That's an easy one for me, the ps4. That means the 720 will be relegated to an exclusives only machine and MS is going to see a significant drop in licensing fees.

04-07-2013

mynd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typical guy

They're making some flawed assumptions for sure. Let's say Tomb Raider sold 3.4 million in a couple weeks (it did). Then let's assume there were 600k used sales worldwide (I don't know the true number here - this is for explanation only). The devs see this and say, "we lost 600k sales".

Your missing the first step.

Lets assume for example, out of that 3.4 million sales, 800k of them were sold via trade in's of other games, that users has sold.

By removing that market, they may well end up loosing 800k in sales, regardless, as people did not, want or have the money to buy the game brand new.

04-07-2013

Typical guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by mynd

Your missing the first step.

Lets assume for example, out of that 3.4 million sales, 800k of them were sold via trade in's of other games, that users has sold.

By removing that market, they may well end up loosing 800k in sales, regardless, as people did not, want or have the money to buy the game brand new.

True. I was making the assumption that tomb raider (in this case) was a game they planned on buying no matter what. Certainly some of those people would chose to never buy it but I'd wager most would just wait for super cheap holiday sales or whatever. Hell, I had about 20 games I got for $10 each on Black Friday and they were good games like Witcher 2 enhanced edition and fallout 3: NV. I had so many games that I realized I couldn't possibly play them all and sold some still unopened on ebay (many for more than the prices I paid but that was never the original intent).

04-07-2013

mistercrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by mynd

Your missing the first step. Lets assume for example, out of that 3.4 million sales, 800k of them were sold via trade in's of other games, that users has sold. By removing that market, they may well end up loosing 800k in sales, regardless, as people did not, want or have the money to buy the game brand new.

Good point. I personally tend to trade old games towards new games. If they took that option away they would lose a day one sale from me. I would just wait for the game to go down in price.

04-07-2013

Typical guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by radgamer420

Good point. I personally tend to trade old games towards new games. If they took that option away they would lose a day one sale from me. I would just wait for the game to go down in price.

This is part of the flawed reasoning that I was mentioning. Consumers aren't going to spend MORE on games. I'm not going to suddenly bankrupt myself paying full price in cash on every game I want at launch. Most of us only have so much "entertainment money" so to speak and this just isn't going to change that.

and as i mentioned above if MS didn't allow used but Sony did, I would buy for PS4 no matter how much better the 720 version is. I tend to buy whatever platform performs best on but this would completely change that.

04-07-2013

Cyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by radgamer420

Good point. I personally tend to trade old games towards new games. If they took that option away they would lose a day one sale from me. I would just wait for the game to go down in price.

ding ding. And a lot of gamers do this, why not right? Possibly the majority of gamers trade in old games to pay towards new ones, it's the sensible thing to do.

So publishers, if you want to kill off used game sales because you don't get a slice of the pie, why don't you let us sell our games back to YOU? Don't like what consumers are doing, give them a better alternative

04-07-2013

Admartian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyn

ding ding. And a lot of gamers do this, why not right? Possibly the majority of gamers trade in old games to pay towards new ones, it's the sensible thing to do.

So publishers, if you want to kill off used game sales because you don't get a slice of the pie, why don't you let us sell our games back to YOU? Don't like what consumers are doing, give them a better alternative

Good idea.

Though I doubt the seedy bastards would let us do it.

04-07-2013

Typical guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyn

ding ding. And a lot of gamers do this, why not right? Possibly the majority of gamers trade in old games to pay towards new ones, it's the sensible thing to do.

So publishers, if you want to kill off used game sales because you don't get a slice of the pie, why don't you let us sell our games back to YOU? Don't like what consumers are doing, give them a better alternative

Another thing to consider, games go out of print on a fairly regular basis. I can see people going out and buying up blocks of games with low print runs or games with the potential to be valuable. Imagine if ps1 didnt allow used games and some ahole bought a thousand copies of Final Fabtasy 7. That means 1000 people didn't get the game and this guy is just hoarding them like bars of gold. Granted this is a gamble but its not really that hard to figure out. For instance, if ps3 didn't allow used games then in a few years from now a sealed copy of Ni No Kuni would be worth a fortune.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against capitalism but I'm pointing out that there could be other unintended consequences. Especially if you "know a guy" that knows what the print runs are. I guarantee if you wanted that information you could get it.

Xenoblade in the US is already going for $100 and it was selling for $50 new just 5 months ago. Now it's sold out and ebay is the only place you can get it. Imagine if the Wii didnt play used.

This brings another thought to mind. I tend to leave games sealed until I get to them. If the no used games thing happens, I could see myself delaying even playing anything (no matter how good it is) if I think it had the potential to become valuable.

04-08-2013

Serinous

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typical guy

This brings another thought to mind. I tend to leave games sealed until I get to them. If the no used games thing happens, I could see myself delaying even playing anything (no matter how good it is) if I think it had the potential to become valuable.

Never really thought of games as commodities... haha

04-08-2013

PS4freak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyn

ding ding. And a lot of gamers do this, why not right? Possibly the majority of gamers trade in old games to pay towards new ones, it's the sensible thing to do.

So publishers, if you want to kill off used game sales because you don't get a slice of the pie, why don't you let us sell our games back to YOU? Don't like what consumers are doing, give them a better alternative

That is a great idea! Not to mention that they have no more room to bitch about not making enough money on games. But the kicker is they probably don't want to go through all the trouble to implement a system like this. Rather just bitch until someone bans used games all together. I've never understood how the gaming world is always the ones bitching about the sale of used products but other media forms never bat an eye at it.

@admartian-Almost pissed myself laughing at your new avatar. +rep

+rep for you as well Cyn for the great idea.

04-08-2013

Typical guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ps3freak18

That is a great idea! Not to mention that they have no more room to bitch about not making enough money on games. But the kicker is they probably don't want to go through all the trouble to implement a system like this. Rather just bitch until someone bans used games all together. I've never understood how the gaming world is always the ones bitching about the sale of used products but other media forms never bat an eye at it.

@admartian-Almost pissed myself laughing at your new avatar. +rep

+rep for you as well Cyn for the great idea.

The market for movies is much larger. I think that's the reason.

04-08-2013

PS4freak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typical guy

The market for movies is much larger. I think that's the reason.

I guess so. It's just odd that I never recall anyone bitching about it from movie studios or recording studios. I guess the price of games vs cds and Dvds is much different too. I think alot of the push to ban comes from the fact that it's such a large market now. It's a huge chunk of gaming sales and they want a piece of the pie that they have already made money off of. I honestly think we will see studios payed royalties before the market goes away completely. There is much to be lost for both sides.

Like a couple have said they won't buy games at full price because of the fact that it's not always easy dishing out $60 or what ever the standard is where others live all the time. Used games go away people are definitely going to be more conscious about how many games they buy a year. As Rad said he would wait it out until the price drops which I'm sure many would do. This is hurting the devs bottom line because they don't make as much off the sale.

Not to mention companies like Best Buy and Gamestop that have trade in programs that is a key part of their game sales will be hurt some kind of bad. I'm sure there would be some kind of compromise to meet at the middle and allow the studios to be payed royalties. That way the companies do take a little hit but they get to keep their business going and the devs make their money off the titles that they have been stressing for years now.

04-08-2013

sainraja

I only look for used games when I can't find a new copy of a game I am looking for. Other than that, I don't see why people buy used games because the difference in price isn't that big. You pay $5 dollars less for a used game with GameStop and I've seen price tags on used games more than the price of a new game (same title.)

04-08-2013

Omar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sainraja

I only look for used games when I can't find a new copy of a game I am looking for. Other than that, I don't see why people buy used games because the difference in price isn't that big. You pay $5 dollars less for a used game with GameStop and I've seen price tags on used games more than the price of a new game (same title.)

True but that's only at Gamestop. The difference can be about $10-$20 at times. I've seen games sold for crazy cheap before. Especially with BD being scratchless, I can see that being a negative for Sony in the end as there's almost no incentive in buying a new copy unless there's an online pass involved.

Though if the difference is $5-$10, who cares. But generally the difference can be at least $10, up to $20.

04-08-2013

PS4freak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sufi

True but that's only at Gamestop. The difference can be about $10-$20 at times. I've seen games sold for crazy cheap before. Especially with BD being scratchless, I can see that being a negative for Sony in the end as there's almost no incentive in buying a new copy unless there's an online pass involved.

Though if the difference is $5-$10, who cares. But generally the difference can be at least $10, up to $20.

I get used games from Gamefly on the cheap. Just paid $12 for Dragon's Dogma. So not everywhere only has that 5-10 dollar drop off.