Temperatures at the North Pole have dropped below freezing, and new interstitial ice will be forming soon, but that shouldn’t stop Pen Hadow from sailing there in six weeks in complete darkness, through two meter thick ice, with temperatures at -10C and ice concentration at 100%.

This is the biggest scam in history and government climate scientists are among the stupidest and most dishonest people on the planet. Meanwhile, the official deep state disinformation agencies continue to lie about the climate.

And as if that was not bad enough, Tony Heller’s post gets linked by Drudge and causes an immediate and rapid meltdown among the members of the global warming cult. It’s a morbid affair and we should start worrying about the possibility of social media-driven Jonestown.

Here’s what the DMI who produced the chart included above have to say on this:

“For an ice sheet that neither grows or shrinks, there is at all points averaged over the year a balance between•the amount of snow that falls and is compressed to ice•the amount of snow and ice that melts or evaporates (sublimates) and•the amount of ice that flows away due to the ice motion

The two first contributions make up the surface mass balance. For the ice sheet as a whole, there is a balance between the surface mass balance and the amount of ice that calves into the ocean as icebergs.

If climate changes, the surface mass balance may change such that it no longer matches the calving and the ice sheet can start to gain or lose mass. This is important to keep track of, since such a mass loss will lead to global sea level rise. As mentioned, satellites measuring the ice sheet mass have observed a loss of around 200 Gt/year over the last decade. ”

For Greenland the SMB does NOt match the calving and the ice sheet is losing mass.

Bull Shit. Ice does not start moving faster as an immediate reaction to increased mass above. It takes time. There is no way that the great increase in Greenland SMB this year could have possibly translated into an increase in calving in the amount needed to counterbalance the mass gained.

Apply that formula to your food intake and watch the poo immediately come out. There is a delay, this is not the formula would apply to the model at hand. I have had all the maths and the physics and actually apply the stuff in the real world while you find laws that are applicable to solid bodies in motion.

Sure … assuming there is no friction. What kind of a fool would assume that something starts to move instantly as you apply force when there is friction to be overcome. If you lean against your house, does it start to move?

Ice behavior under a load is viscoelastic. And the calculations involved along with the margin of error would make it impossible to predict their motion based on newtons laws even if you tried to take in all the other variable factors. All you can do is take empirical measurements and make predictions based on them.

Newton’s laws are accurate to totally simulate only perfect bodies. The F available to make the ice move is not equal to the total added force of accumulated ice, because it requires force to deform the ice and time for that deformation to happen.

You knew exactly what I meant. Ice flows slowly. The gain in mass at a summit will not immediately increase the mass being calved below. It takes time for the mass of new ice above to accelerate the advance of the ice below. It takes time for the effects to show up at the ablation zone and for the calving to increase.

IF you were correct in the application of Newtons 1st law of motion then when any mass were added to the accumulation zone the face at the ablation zone would immediately advance proportional to the mass added and a glacier that terminates in unfrozen sea could not possibly gain mass ever, all other things being equal.

To imply that increased mass in the accumulation zone of a glacier translates into an instant acceleration of the ice flow and thus instant calving at the ablation zone at the bottom is dishonest and denies the reality that glaciers can gain mass beyond equal librium. If the rate of accumulation was instantly matched by the rate of ablation or calving then the mass of the ice sheet would never gain mass above equal Librium and only possibly lose it to melting or calving. But they do gain mass. The only time a glacier advances more or less instantly in is in the case of a glacial quake.

Any math is only as good as the limitation of knowledge of the person applying it.

Vending Cart de Carrion knows his formula and how to apply it. He should make a YouTube demonstration of pouring a bucket of water into the Missouri in Cannon Ball, ND and showing the immediate reaction in New Orleans. He’d better notify the authorities there, though.

He’s a scientist and they know how to do these things. He can calculate it for you, too.

Well vendicar- i missed a lot of school hours,but according to Newtons Law there is a delay(in any object which starts to move/accelerate)it is called inertia.It does not make a difference but,well you know-school etc.

The mass above does not always accelerate the movement.It depends on wether it can move(being blocked by rocks,mountains other ice structures)The increase in movement is barely significant.(when a car B weighs 50% more than car A it will not accelerate 50% faster downhill then car A and it will not reach 50% more speed)The AGW cult make it look like all of a sudden the mass starts to move much fasterthen before((the same trick they use with global warming))

I think we can all thank Ventingfart for volunteering to illustrate the Dunning–Kruger effect. It is good that some unfortunate folks are willing to act as a warning to the rest of us. Every village needs its idiot

“In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1]”

desperation from the Arctic alarmists when you have to send in a pee shooter. !

Current Greenland ice area is above what it has been for most the last 8000 years.

The only time it has been higher was duribng the LIA.

Unfortunately that RECOVERY from the COLDEST period in 10,000 years seems to have stalled, and all indication are that the global temperatures will start to drop again over the next decades or so. That drop in temperatures is what we should all really be concerned about, not a highly beneficial slight warming.

So…Griff…let me get this straight.If a glacier ‘retreats’ in some mountainous region in the temperate zone that’s caused by Global Warming, right?But if a glacier ‘advances’ in say…the Arctic, that’s caused by Global Warming too?Wow.

Griffiepoo is off milking the unicorns and gathering the fairy dust which will power the arctic explorers in their conquest of the frozen north.Tony scores another direct hit on the Grifftard …. not sure if this one got him between the eyes or was a bulls eye on the butt but Griff is a hurting puppy now and refuses to look at that DMI chart showing the arctic temps falling fast … he knows everything is still melting at the north pole, his mind is made up & Tony is just confusing him with facts and data.

Griff, why even bother? You’re dealing with the alt-right who will do ANYTHING to ALARM us into the HYSTERICAL thinking that if we convert to sustainable energy and reduce carbon emissions, the global economy will collapse due to the petrololeum industry collapsing. Too hysterical for words. Fortunately, these idiots are in the minority and know NOTHING about science.BTW China is KILLING us in development of the sustainable energy market.

Notice the new ice that froze up overnight = the flat smooth area just to the lower center left and the wave rippled open water above the new ice …. new ice forming means very little melting to a sane person who lives in the north ;-) and new ice means temps below freezing as u can see on obuoy’s thermometer readings which are getting erratic in the overnight leading me to think the battery is finally failing on 14.

Stewart, your observation doesn’t agree with Ms Griff’s hypothesis and must be discarded. The arctic is hot as hell. She read it in the papers.

Also, Pen Hadow and his Arctic Missionaries have embarked on a sun-soaked pleasure cruise through the blue waters. Expect frolicking and swimsuit competitions on board of their two yachts. And just wait till his Missionaries hit the beaches …

I’m sure the ship stewards are wearing shorts and sandals as they serve ice cold beverages to the passengers coated in spf 50 with zinc oxide on their noses watching polar bears drown in the vast expanses of open Arctic ocean.

She has no time to post-the Griff is desperately searching for the summer which went missing during in England during this summer,hoping that at least one day reaches 25+ degrees so that she does not feel like a complete idiot when running around and warning about global warming.

Seems the AGW business is extremely tiresome and frustrating when you are not on the official global warming scientist payrole.Running around and telling freezing people how we all ginna die on a hell-like hot earth((i really love all the religious analogies the AGW cultis missusing to make people feel guilty and anxious))is really a tough tough thing.

She needn’t worry. The Russians are getting some of the warmth right now and they need it since they have had little summer weather this year. Soon enough the air masses will flip flop and England will once again be warmer than average for a time.

Same thing happening here in Central Indiana. We’ve been much cooler than average for several weeks but that is about to change and the people out west will cool off as we get warmer than average temperatures for a time.

FYI – Here in central Maine, USA, we have already had morning temps in the 40’s F. This morning it was 47 F in Norridgewock. Furthermore, this is the summer that wasn’t and many maples are already starting to change color. This doesn’t look like global warming to me.

Again, Griff, when you engage the ignorant, they will work HARD to bring YOU down. Why deal with hysterical alt-right know-nothings who care more about the petroleum and coal industries than our home planet?

Right! Like the jetstream “never” moves on it’s own. How could a wobbly, not solid, spheroidal, 70% covered in water, spinning at 1000mph +, hurtling through space, constantly bombarded with cosmic rays and the suns energy etc… not be totally controlled by a trace magic gas?

Griff is desperately searching for the summer which went missing during in England during this summer,

Historic Heat Wave Sweeps Asia, the Middle East and Europe

The last week of May 2017 and first week of June brought one the most extraordinary heatwaves in world history to Asia, the Middle East and Europe. The mercury shot up to an astonishing 53.5°C (128.3°F) at Turbat, Pakistan on May 28, making it Earth’s hottest temperature ever recorded in the month of May—and one of Earth’s top-five hottest reliably-measured temperatures on record, for any month. Both Pakistan and Oman tied their all-time national heat records for any month during the heat wave, and all-time national heat records for the month of May were set in Iran, Norway and Austria. International weather records expert Maximiliano Herrera details the great heat wave in this guest post.

Come on dude.Pakistan is barely 7 decades oldand weather stations ,if they exist ,are few.In Oman they barely knew what thermoters are a hundred years ago.

These countries have barely reliable datas for the past few decades,therefore you will find in such countries always new records somewhere as only very few records exist.((just like women-pole jumping/pole vault a few years ago.it was new,therefore many records had been setwhile at the same time men-pole jumping was just improved once in the past 25 years)

You have heat in regions((with very little reliable data in the past years))and then you have cold in othrr regions at the same time=weather.

Nothing new to see here:Weather and business as usual.Strange somehow you forgott to mention the extreme cold for months in east southern Europe.Why?Because noone was crying doom&gloom when it happened -it was either ignored or simply treated as unspectacular news(which it was),while any heatwave is sign for armageddon.

The same with all the unusual Snowfall in the middle+near east this winter/spring and evensnowfalls in south americas warm region.

This also was weather.Nothing more-btw,prepare for many new records in regions where weather stations barely exist and just for few decades as this is the normal when few data exists.(and never ask yourself why noone cries when new cold records are set)

I think you’ll find records being broken at sites that have only been open this century. I checked one that was only built because of oil. Newspaper articles mention the heat in WWII that was setting off the heat badges of British soldiers every day. No mention of recorded temperatures though.

Try mentioning the Greenland Ice Core studies that showed that both the Minoan and Roman Warming Periods were warmer than now and watch their heads explode.

Better yet, in a study of temperatures from 2000 to 2017 it was found that 311,000 people died from extreme heat. However, during the same period 5.4 million people died from extreme cold; AGW people seem to miss the significance of those numbers completely. Lol

It’s not clear if Einstein actually said this. First quoted by Frederick S Perls in 1947 and attributed to “a great astronomer”. He never made the Einstein claim until 1969, 14 years after Einstein’s death so there was nobody to dispute it. He also altered the quote over time, adding the last part “not sure about the former”.

Dan, you must listen to the experts like Vending Cart de Carrion. Bad weather and anything in the atmosphere you don’t like is climate. Don’t you read the papers or watch evening news? All the good things are weather. Manmade global warming causes floods and droughts, heat waves and arctic blasts, it shrinks horses, turns nice young men into thugs and it drives couples to murder-suicide pacts. At times it causes an extremely moderate weather, but some other times it makes our wives really cranky. Al Gore knows all about that. That’s why he is making these movies and that’s what Bill Nye and Vending Cart are trying to beat into your thick skull.

You seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that it is summer up there at the moment (nearly finished) and sea ice should be melting.

Perhaps that is because of the lack of summer in the UK this year??

But you , of course, want the seasons to go back to the LIA , don’t you griff. That way you can spent ALL of your time in your fossil fuelled little ghetto basement, wetting your bed constantly about some other problem.

(Oh wait.. if you and your moronic CO2-HATERS have their way, there will be no fossil fuel heating…won’t that be wonderful on those cold windless nights….. OOPS !)

The real problem is rooted in the education system. It is totally LIBERAL, but they refuse to see it.From day 1 in any school around the globe, the mantra has been MANMADE GLOBAL WARMING. It is now too late there are too many IGNORANT, lead to water yout’s, and limp wristed hand wringing adults.People can’t understand the earth evolves as it revolves. Man is just a speck of dust in the realm of the universe.

Seriously, you guys should redirect some of yourfire-power on the venerable Seth Borenstein.He is the evil genius behind much of the GWnonsense that makes it onto the front page ofyour hometown newspaper. He is headclimate-change guru at the AP.

It’s not science when the data is manipulated to say something other than what it really is. So all that “evidence” as you call it is not really evidence at all, it is fraud and propaganda. You just have not developed a BS meter to detect it like the rest of us have.

Their different observations – which you can check by looking at output from several online satellite photo websites – all show sea ice extent declining and this year’s to be lower for this date than 2016.

Perhaps because both the Roman and Minoan Warming Periods were hotter than today, yet archeologists have failed to find the remains of their coal burning power plants and millions of automobiles. Here’s a free clue: where does the heat originate? Has that source historically varied in output? If it goes out, will AGW keep earth from mimicing Pluto?

You’re probably too young to remember when “real” scientists said tobacco was not only harmless, but good for you. Or that x-ray machines were “safe” enough to use to determine shoe size in shoe stores.

I know, google “scientific theories that turned out to be wrong”; some after hundreds of years.

Ms Griff, judging from your contributions on this blog you suffer from all known Progressive mental disorders but you are definitely no liberal. Your sociopathic prescriptions are among the most illiberal I know.

You are just a typical genocidal totalitarian out to fix the world for good.

Islam and Communism do have something in common in their effects on those that must live under them. Neither has anything to do with liberalism. And black. I don’t give a damn what color you are. Ignorance comes in all colors.

Well you described just Obama(from my muslims uncle(studied agricultural something) point of view:(and he for sure is no conspiracy theorist)I asked him wether he thinks Obama is muslim and he laughedand said.“Barack is Muslim name(also jewish)Hussein is a muslim name.How the hell can he be a christian?If he were a christian he would have a christian name”

This is also why she always dodges the questions of what is the ideal? What is the level the Arctic ice supposed to recover to for our climate to be ideal? What is are the ideal sea ice extents, areas, and volumes? What are the perfect temperatures for the equator, temperate zones, and Frigid zones?

Every movement needs to have stated ultimate objectives for their end result but alarmists buy into the CO2 claims without asking the most basic of questions of what are the ideal climate temperatures and why?

Frank Mackie Glacier repeatedly advanced across the Bowser River valley in northwestern British Columbia to impound Tide Lake during the Holocene. The most recent infilling of Tide Lake was associated with a late Little Ice Age glacier advance and ended around 1930 when the lake catastrophically drained. Over the last century Frank Mackie Glacier has retreated and down wasted to reveal multiple glaciogenic sedimentary units within the proximal faces of prominent lateral moraines. The units are separated by buried in-situ tree stumps and laterally contiguous wood mats deposited on paleosols. Dendroglaciological and radiocarbon dating of these wood remains show that Frank Mackie Glacier expanded into standing forests at 3710–3300, 2700–2200, 1700–1290, 900–500, and 250–100 cal. years BP. These advances coincide closely in time with the previously established Tide Lake glacier dam chronology and with the Holocene history of other glaciers in the Bowser River watershed. The findings emphasize the likelihood that most glaciers within northwestern British Columbia underwent substantial size and mass balance changes over the last 4000 years, and often spent hundreds of years in advanced positions before retreating.http://cjes.geoscienceworld.org/content/54/1/76Accepted August 26, 2016.

Three nights ago (August 14) a large (possibly 200 birds) of honking Canada geese flew over my residence in southwest Wisconsin.They were headed south on the Mississippi flyway and may harbinger an early fall.Time will tell.

“In sum, a strategy must recognize what is possible. In climate research and modelling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”

This information was not included in the Summary Report for Policymakers given to the press and public.

If the climate is indeed a coupled non-linear chaotic system (who can doubt the IPCC) then there is no rational or scientific basis to make a definitive statement about a future state of the climate.

At this point the coupled non-linear chaotic nature of the climate makes scientific observations academically interesting but individually they have no relevance in predicting the future state of the climate. The climate is a system which means the relationships among these observations are what is important not the observations themselves.

All the public discourse regarding the future state of the climate has been based on the false premise that the current climate models are predicting the future state of the climate when in fact the models are merely projecting these states.

Predictions are the purview of science. Model projections can only agree with predictions when the models duplicate the real world.

To base public policy on an unknowable state of a system defies common sense. However, too much money and political power is at stake for the Central Planners to do otherwise.

I would argue that the Climate Model True Believers are the ones taking an unscientific approach to the subject.

In January 1961 President Eisenhower in his Farewell Address identified the situation in which we find ourselves today:

“Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system — ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.”

So we managed to get someone in the White House who isn’t cowed by virtue signalling?

It’s very much like the Solomon Asch conformity experiment. Everyone else is a stooge paid to say that AGW is the greatest threat in the history of humankind. But Trump is one of those rare subjects who decided his perceptions were more trustworthy than the reports he was getting from everyone else. (And that was with 162 stooges! That may be a record for resisting the pressure to conform.)

Does anyone understand the concept that some of us see the data, then we see that many top shelf researchers and orgs get busted for lying, lying by omission, producing bad data, failed solar companies subsidized with our tax money, etc. Then we see how lucrative this area of research has become and we think hmmm, I don’t trust these people enough to be stoked about their funding, grants, subsidies etc. andThe info they are peddling.

So pardon me and I assume others who aren’t committing to this. If that angers you blame the lack of oversight and the scumbags who are wrecking credibility.

They can wail and grind their teeth and scream all they want but the fact is what was predicted to happen with both Arctic sea ice and the Greenland ice sheet has not happened and is not happening and in fact the exact opposite is what we have seen this year.

“HISTORICAL REVIEWBetween 1000 and 1300 average summer temperatures were about 1°C higher than today, with the mean annual temperature higher by perhaps 4°C in a largely ice-free Arctic. Eric the Red, a renowned world citizen of that time, hasbeen much maligned as the first progressive publicity man for giving Greenland a false image in order to attract settlers; but in truth, the southwest of that vast country was warmer and greener by far than at any time until the Fieldfares Turdus pilaris arrived there in the mid-1930s. The sea-temperature of the Atlanticwas higher than it has been since, and there appears to have been none or very little ice to hinder the Vikings’ communications between Iceland, Greenland,Newfoundland and Labrador (Mowat 1965). Indeed Brooks (1926) considers thatthe polar ice-cap may have disappeared entirely during the summer months, tobuild anew each winter.”

Griffiepoo, do I detect desperation in your posts as the DMI graph of temps above 80 drops early & significantly below freezing? Does this picture of new ice that formed overnight (although the sun never sets this time of year) scare the crap out of you that your scary melt stories are wrong and that soon you won’t be able to tell any more scary melt stories? http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/camera

The EVIDENCE is there for all to see, that the Arctic has been recovering from pretty much the HIGHEST levels in the last 10,000 years. Only time that was higher than the late 1970’s was the LIA.

Why are you such a spiteful, putrid person that you wish those living up there having to put up with those extremes again, when having more open Arctic region for even a couple of weeks a year would be an absolute benefit .

Travel, commerce, fishing etc , would be possible again like before the LIA. The need for ice-breakers just to survive , would not be necessary.

Why are you such a HATEFUL person, griff, that you use a highly beneficial drop back to normal sea ice levels as some sort of chicken-little, bed-wetting, yapping point ??

Hey Griff – did you ever learn what summer time is? I know that living in the UK you may have never actually seen a real summer but the rest of the world actually gets beach weather in July & August … even in northern Canada.

Yeah I guess I miss spoke but on an arctic / Greenland thread I was thinking N Hemisphere and typed out rest of the world. Sometimes it is tough to remember you cellar dwellers on the bottom of the globe ;-)

Just like he is paying tens of thousands of dollars each and every year for utility costs,heated pools etc.

And now he is asking for 15 trillion dollar to fight global warming .And i’m pretty sure his new movie “A much much more inconvinient truth-now with 2* more co2 and 500% more apocalyptic scenarios and much more death for ice bears”will be a fatastic comedy,disguised as science.And when you “read” between the lines of his new movieyou will find the best of propaganda .You will find how grown ups are treated like little childrenwhile pretending to treat the as grown ups.

You will find many ice bear mommas with children which will die a horrible death((to scare the children))

You will find out that the main message is that everyone is a Nazi who does not agree with them and is not willing to become member of the sociophantic AGW group((the same methods that are used with political correctness and hate speech))

And you will NOT find a single word about climate gate,about data tampering,about all the miserably failed predictions of the AGW cult

And you will find hundreds of thousands old people living near the coast watching this movie,after leaving cinema watching at the sea – and they will still fail to realise that the sea level is the same as 50 years ago ((and that Al Gore is lying in his movie))and that they need as much energy for heating in a single year as they used to 50 years ago,because it did not get warmer after all.

A formula which is created out of thin air(just like the FED’s money)so thin,only 0.01% of the Airs substance(=Mann(&Hansen)made co2)is enough make the entire world population tax slavesfor his benefit and the benefit of the powerfull banksters who own him.

So powerfull that they not just controle the FED or the co2 stock market in chicago,but so powerfull that they can buy noble peace prizesto make a controversial AGW theory( which was contradicting their very own global cooling theory )a fact.

Some people say:impossible-noone can buy a noble peace prize you looney.Well-how the hell was it possible for the mass murderer Kissinger to get the noble prize.Or worse-how was it possible for a nothing who has done nothing to deserve this prize to get one.Kissinger at least pretended to have stopped the vietnam war,Obama on the other side had nothing and he won though there had been tens of millions of people on this planet who had deserved this prize more than him.

Average Joe cheers because the media tells him,but the noble prize commettee is a group of very smart super experts and not a bunch of dipshits-and all they got about obama was an empty piece of paper because he had nothing to show,while all the others contestants had.Still Obama won.The only way for Obama to win?Someone gave the noble committee a lot moneyand they gave him the prize.

Meteorological data has been manipulated by the left for decades, (look Australia’s BOM) admitting not logging in the low temps for decades to prove global worming is “real”. Many data collectors of temps around the globe, have been putting the thermometers next to ground level and next to hot concrete surfaces and on buildings facing south sides to show a rise in temps for decades.If you are independent thinker, there is no doubt that there is no GLOBAL worming in your mind, on the other hand, if you listen to BBC and other global worming peddlers, you have been permanently brain washed and you are beyond repair, therefore, there is no point of arguing and trying to make you understand the real truth, the left has been indoctrinated your mind to a point of no return.

You can look up the table the same 6 number ID’s here and click on any to see the current conditions at that location. Basically anything N of 80 deg is at 0C right now. It’s a neat resource and also shows that some older buoys are still floating around the North Atlantic or in the Gulf of Alaska.

The buoy currently closest to the Pole spent Summer 2015 in the mid 70s off Banks Is in the Beaufort Sea…Last Summer 2016 around mid 80s off Longitude ~220 toward Siberia after apparently being repositioned…and is now around Latitude 87, north of Greenland (other side of Pole from last year). Click on the specific buoy 255800 for detailed data like track map and temp.

Temp plot for this buoy is below, but suggest you consult the buoy map to see WHERE temps taken before drawing conclusions. Enjoy.

(*Sigh) This one’s for Griff: I understand that you are seriously concerned about the planet and “climate change” (I won’t call it “Global Warming” as that term has fallen into disfavor in some parts of the media.) For the sake of intelligent discussion, let’s postulate that climate change IS occurring (there is little argument on this point! I have two words for all of you: ICE AGE.)

The actual argument is whether MAN is causing climate change! I am open to the POSSIBILITY that it might be so BUT I have not been convinced of this due to the inability of the “Man Caused Climate Change” proponents to present irrefutable proof! I’m not asking for much but what I DO require is honesty in reporting data!!!

The “MCCC” proponents do themselves an incredible disservice by “fudging” the numbers to make their computer models (and their subsequent “doomsday” predictions) work! This is a fact. By having SOME overzealous proponents change temperature readings in the past, in order to make what was statistically “no change” into an upward trend, they have brought ALL data into question and seriously weakened your argument!

I have actually attended a talk by one of the scientists on the team that received the Nobel Prize (shared with Al Gore) and we asked him if this “Global Warming” threat was as dire as the media was making it out to be (this was over seven years ago) and he said that, yes, they believed that the evidence showed that man’s dumping of millions of tons of CO2 each year into the atmosphere WILL cause global temperatures to rise in the future, it will occur at the rate of one degree Celsius in 50 years or more. This was supposing that the global increase in CO2 emissions continued it’s dramatic rise at the same pace.

I’m not an idiot and neither are most “climate change deniers!” I don’t think that anybody believes that dumping BILLIONS of tons of ANYTHING into our atmosphere will not result in something happening over a period of time! My problem is the sensationalism about this subject! This whole idea that WE ARE DYING!! WE HAVE ONE CHANCE TO SAVE OUR PLANET!!! WE HAVE REACHED THE TIPPING POINT!!!! WE HAVE TO ACT NOW!!!!! just rubs me as too passionate but not nearly persuasive enough!

I asked the Doctor from the team why Al Gore made it sound like the world was coming to an end in the next ten years and he smiled, looked down, then looked up at me and said, “Sometimes people find that exaggerations are needed to get the populace to wake up and do something.” If the threat isn’t dire, most of the time the general populace will just go, “Meh.”

Lastly, the solutions proposed are nothing of the kind for they are not designed to be implemented on a global scale! Instead, the USA and other “first world” countries are to be hit with industry crippling regulations while other “developing” countries are allowed to continue to pollute! This then becomes a global “wealth distribution” scheme which only fuels the resistance to your arguments!

I could go on but I believe this is sufficient for a start. One thing I DO believe is that technology, derived from a robust economy, will ultimately be the solution. It can not be imposed but must be agreed to by both sides. For that, BOTH sides must start being honest with each other!

In reply I’d say that (unfortunately) it is the trend of our times to report almost anything a all in a sensational fashion and we just have to accept any reporting is done at ‘full volume’ these days.

Also, there is a lot to turn around if we are to reduce CO2 and thus we need to reduce as much as possible as soon as possible… another reason the reporting is a little strident.

Technology is surely the solution – there are some amazing things being done with batteries, fuel cells, computer management of grids, solar power, etc

Better thinking and a lot less lying is a better solution. When are you going to improve,Griff?

Meanwhile a new science report indicates that sea ice coverage during the 20th century is probably way too high:

“However, when we looked in detail at the available pre-satellite data, we realised that there were serious problems with the Walsh & Chapman estimates.

The main problem is that the pre-satellite data is unfortunately very limited. If a ship travelled through a particular region in a given season, then they could have reported how much ice was in that region, or whether it was ice-free. But, what do you do if there were no ships (or airplanes, buoys, etc. ) in that region?

It seems that in a lot of cases when Walsh & Chapman didn’t have measurements for a given region they effectively ended up assuming that those regions were ice-filled!

For example, in the figure below, the map on the left shows the main data source used by Walsh & Chapman for August 1952. It’s an estimate of the Arctic sea ice extent that was compiled by the Danish Meteorological Institute (DMI). On the map, the red lines indicate the ice boundaries where the DMI actually had taken measurements – in this case, mostly around Greenland and eastern Canada. The white regions on the rest of the map indicate regions where “ice supposed, but no information at hand”. In other words, the DMI was guessing that there might be ice there, but didn’t know!”

and,

“This period was in the middle of the Cold War and unfortunately there was very little data-sharing between the Soviet Union and western countries like Denmark. So, the DMI had almost no information for the Russian Arctic. However, as it happens, the Russians were making their own observations of the Russian sea ice using aerial reconnaissance, ships, buoys, etc. In the 21st century, some Russian scientists began digitizing this data and publishing it. The map on the right hand side shows the Russian observations for the exact same month (August 1952). The blue regions were ice-free, the white regions were ice-filled and the grey regions were regions they weren’t measuring.

Notice how all of the Siberian Arctic regions that the Russians could see were ice-free were assumed to be ice-filled by the DMI?

The Walsh & Chapman estimates assumed that the DMI’s guesses were accurate, but they weren’t!”

A lot nicer than the miserable heat and humidity in DC, that can resemble the Amazon Jungle. Plus we can have plenty of cold, wind and snow during winter here as well. Some winters mild, some downright nasty.

Calling Griff;I asked the same question over at WUWT, maybe Griff forgot to set the alarm.

Griff:**fossil fuel produced CO2 is isotopically different.

you just measure the proportion of CO2 with the fossil fuel isotope**

So, Griff, here is one you nor anyone else has answered?How do you MEASURE the amount of warming caused by any CO2?This is where the lies come in. And take note that you have been asked this question many times including at Realclimatescience. And predictably you have not replied. So I expect the same today.

In the absence of any other climate drivers and after examining the warming trend after accounting for/in excess of known natural cycles, it is reasonable to assume that the warming observed is from CO2 – there being a known physical mechanism whereby CO2 warms the atmosphere and CO2 having been shown to be increasing, the origin of the CO2 being human activity burning fossil fuel, as shown by isotopic type of CO2.

The surface temperature records and the RSS satellite records show warming global temperatures…

(checking of surface temperature data by the skeptic funded Berkley Earth confirmed it is warming and that there was no distorting UHI effect)

The how did we have well over a decade of pause (which the climate models that are the foundation of alarmist claims for the furture, failed to predict)? CO2 continued to rise all that time but temps didn’t. Thus in the proxy record increases in atmospheric CO2 follows natural warming, and in the modern record increases in temperature do not correlate with rises in temperature. That is unless you rely on altered data and the miserably inadequate and doctored global surface temperature data.

A brief survey of the literature concerning volcanogenic carbon dioxide emission finds that estimates of subaerial emission totals fail to account for the diversity of volcanic emissions and are unprepared for individual outliers that dominate known volcanic emissions. Deepening the apparent mystery of total volcanogenic CO2 emission, there is no magic fingerprint with which to identify industrially produced CO2 as volcanic CO2 is isotopically identical. Molar ratios of O2 consumed to CO2 produced are, moreover, of little use due to the abundance of processes (eg. weathering, corrosion, etc) other than volcanic CO2 emission and fossil fuel consumption that are, to date, unquantified. Furthermore, the discovery of a surprising number of submarine volcanoes highlights the underestimation of global volcanism and provides a loose basis for an estimate that may partly explain ocean acidification and rising atmospheric carbon dioxide levels observed last century, as well as shedding much needed light on intensified polar spring melts. Based on this brief literature survey, we may conclude that volcanic CO2 emissions are much higher than previously estimated, and as volcanic CO2 is isotopically identical to industrially emitted CO2, we cannot glibly assume that the increase of atmospheric CO2 is exclusively anthropogenic.

And even without added CO2, we would still expect a rebound from the LIA. Natural Varisbility has never been disproven.

There is NO CO2 signature in the whole of the satellite data record. All warming has come form EL Nino events and ocean oscillations. Solar effect from the Grand Solar Maximum of the latter half of last century.

Find me one paper that shows empirically that CO2 causes warming in a gravity based convective atmosphere.

The ONLY way you can maintain you AGW bed-wetting is by remaining WILFULLY IGNORANT.

AbstractA new seasonal and annual dataset describing Arctic sea ice extents for 1901–2015 was constructed by individually re-calibrating sea ice data sources from the three Arctic regions (North American, Nordic and Siberian) using the corresponding surface air temperature trends for the pre-satellite era (1901–1978), so that the strong relationship between seasonal sea ice extent and surface air temperature observed for the satellite era (1979-present) also applies to the pre-satellite era. According to this new dataset, the recent period of Arctic sea ice retreat since the 1970s followed a period of sea ice growth after the mid-1940s, which in turn followed a period of sea ice retreat after the 1910s. Arctic sea ice is a key component of the Arctic hydrological cycle, through both its freshwater storage role and its influence on oceanic and atmospheric circulation. Therefore, these new insights have significance for our understanding of Arctic hydrology.EDITOR D. KoutsoyiannisASSOCIATE EDITOR not assigned

Cherry pick what statement from the whole paper you like Jim even if it has that devil Willie Soon as one of the authors. I don’t care. It’s part of your modus operandi and everybody with a few functioning brain cells knows it.

Yep, we all know that the late 1970’s was a short period of EXTREME Arctic sea ice, only exceeded slightly by the extents of the Little Ice Age.

But as you well know, but continue to wilfully lie because it goes against your slimy anti-human agenda, the only time the extent has been above current levels has been the LIA, and ca couple of period in the highly beneficial warming since that coldest period in 10,000 years.

Your continued DENIAL of the basic facts marks you are NOTHING but a low-life, LYING , snivelling cowardly TROLL

Regarding Arctic ice rather than Greenland ice, an interesting recent post at WUWT includes this link to a recently published paper showing that Arctic ice has grown, decreased, grown and decreased over the last century.

I would bee interested to know how it compares to the maps you showed comparing a National Geographic estimate for 1971 compared to 2017.

Yep, the last 400 years or so it has been at its highest extent in the last 10,000 years. It has fluctuated back and forth a bit, but remains higher than it has been for 90-95% of the last 10,000 years. Stein shows this in this graph extracted from his paper.

Well we’re taking our 2 1/2 year old granddaughter to the Indianapolis Zoo today. Unfortunately one polar bear they had died in 2009 (Tahtsa was the oldest Polar bear known anywhere). Then last year they shipped out their other Polar bear to the Detroit Zoo. They haven’t gotten any new ones.

They say they like to replace an exhibit that closes with one having an endangered species. I’ll what, if anything, has replaced the polar bear exhibit. As far as I know, there is no new polar bear exhibit on the horizon at the Indy zoo. But it is still a wonderful zoo.

In my college years, I used to go to the St Louis Zoo on the coldest Winter days to photgraph the polar bears. They would break huge chunks of ice off of the edge of their ponds, and then throw them about like it was nothing.

If you have never visited the St Louis Zoo, I highly recommend it. It is still a free zoo, and usually ranks in the top 5 zoos in the US. It is also located in Forest Park, where you can find vestiges of the 1904 World’s Fair, and many other wonderful attractions. And yes, they still have polar bears.

Besides Indianapolis I have been to the one in Cincinnati and the huge one in San Diego. Also visited the Munich zoo while living in Germany.

I was pretty disappointed in our zoo. Not nearly as many exhibits as it once had and the fences they are using are not child friendly. It was one of the hotter days we’ve had this summer breaking 90 deg. F and the granddaughter got miserable so we skipped some stuff. But all in all it was a good time. We’ll try again in a year or two to make a spring trip.

Now it’s off to bed. At 02:30 depart for Findlay, OH then down to Dyersburg, TN to deliver the cans or lids then over to our little terminal in Paragould, AR to pick up a Tenneco load to bring me back home.

Wikipedia says: The icebreaker is an upgrade of the Arktika class. The 159.60 m (524 ft) long and 30.0 m (98 ft) wide vessel, with a displacement of 25,840 metric tons, is designed to break through ice up to 5 metres (16 ft) thick.

So you say he is still going to try and go to the pole as he originally stated was his objective? If not then he did quit the mission and gave himself a new one with a completely different objective of sailing around the pole.

I guess Pen Headow is another evil genius who thinks ice is more important than human life. Huge shock that Genocide Jim is a really big fan. If these kinds of self aggrandizing stunts were not helping to snuff out millions I would simply call them pointless, but there is a common thread of anti-human ideology to them all. Why do leftists hate poor brown people?