Farewell to Jarvis Moss (Hello, David Veikune)

Doc BearNov 18, 2010 3:30 PM

Jarvis Moss was released by Denver yesterday after 3.5 unsuccessful seasons with the club. At the same time, David Veikune joined the Broncos. Denver had decapitated KC, the current division leader, only days before, with the recently acquired Joe Mays, (who proudly describes himself as a ‘ST player who also plays a little LB’). Given his 7 tackles (and he was in on several more), his pounding of the talented Jamaal Charles and his constant presence around the ball, he may have to review that stance. Bowing to the inevitable, though, Denver finally cut Jarvis Moss. He may have been the MVP of the scout team in 2009, but on Sundays, the only place you could find him was on the side of milk cartons.

To improve their pass rush and protect their ability to rotate their LBs to minimize wear and tear over the course of the season, Denver brought in Veikune, who was released by the Cleveland Browns in September. He is a former 2nd-round pick from the 2009 Draft. Questions abound as to why Cleveland cut such a high pick free after only 1.5 seasons. As was true in the Alphonso Smith trade, sometimes you find that the player and your team just don’t make a good fit. In fairness to both Veikune and Jarvis Moss, sometimes the systems just don’t fit the player.

Consider Jason Hunter, who scored a TD in the KC game after he recovered a fumble caused by Mario Haggan stripping the ball from Matt Cassel (one of three sacks for Haggan on the day - Hunter himself would add a fourth). Green Bay released Hunter because after three seasons as a 4-3 DE, they were convinced that he couldn’t fit their plans to move to the 3-4 and roll to OLB. Detroit kept him for a year at DE in their 4-3, and Denver took an opportunity to steal him and moved him into a scheme that plays much better to his strengths. The results so far are 9 games played, 3 sacks, 1 INT, 1 fumble recovered for a TD and 2 passes defensed. He’s already eclipsed his one-year total tackles with 36 (beating 27 in Detroit last year).

Beyond the emergence of Mays and the return of starter Robert Ayers, Denver has two good reasons to pick up Veikune. The first is simple - like Moss was hoped to, he’s got some skills as a pass rusher on the edge. With Elvis ‘Doom’ Dumervil out for the year, Denver is trying to position themselves for a potential playoff push. The loss of Doom for 2010 and the inability of Moss to step up on game days left a hole in the organization’s plans, and with starter Andre’ Goodman out, the secondary is weakened in degree (most of us would probably prefer developing Perrish Cox at this point anyway, but it did take time for Perrish to develop). Joe Mays is a brilliant run stopper, as everyone now knows and his coverage skills are better than was advertised, but he’s not a pass rusher. Jason Hunter is an excellent all-around player, and 3 sacks in 9 games is good, but not there with Doom’s level of ability. DJ Williams is an ILB and Haggan may now return to OLB with Mays playing so well at SILB, which will help on the sack total if this past week’s racking up of three sacks was any indication. Sure, they knew Cassel was going to throw, but even so, Haggan had a great day. The linemen didn’t try any less hard to stop him, and they had relatively little success.

Even so - Denver was a pass rusher short. Since San Diego is next, and their right tackle, Jerome Clary, has proved vulnerable to a power/speed rusher from the OLB, this could be the week that Denver finds out who they have. He won’t be able to pick up much of the playbook, but if he’s only going in on certain down/distance combinations with instructions to get to the QB, he might play in that capacity.

It’s fair to point out that Veikune only scored an average of 4.79 on the 40-yard dash at Combine (his lowest was 4.68), but he also scored 35 reps on the 225-lb. bench press, better than many of the offensive linemen. Veikune got as many sacks at Hawaii via sheer power as he did speed, but in his defense, he seemed to know his moves. Either way - averaging 6 sacks a year in college is pretty good.

After watching some highlight film - not a great way to scout, but you do what you can with what’s available - the only thing that really stood out was that he plays faster than he times, at least on the plays that I could find. It was no surprise. 16.5 tackles for loss plus the 9 sacks his senior year in college tells me that he likes to live in the opposing teams’ backfield. In Cleveland, he was moved to ILB, and from what I’ve gathered on the fan sites (not always a treasure trove of solid information, but a decent place to start) his release came as only a small surprise. Jarvis Moss’ came as none at all, and Denver is hoping that Veikune can be trained as a better substitute for him.

The situation with Moss was one reason to bring in another potential OLB, and a second reason is simple - numbers and rotation. I’ve already heard fans asking why Denver wanted another possible transitioning DE/OLB. There’s a good reason for it. In a longer, tougher game, you try to keep your players fresh. Wesley Woodyard should come in on passing downs at ILB, and Mays, although I was pleasantly surprised by how well he handled coverage, will probably sit for them. DJ may need to be rested at times, and Woodyard and Mays can handle the ILB duties if that’s the case. Veikune has played some ILB and some OLB. If Ayers, Haggan or Hunter need a breather, we now have, in theory, another LB that we can hope will develop into giving the Broncos nearly a full second LB rotation.

Mays will be handling the ST duties that he’s proud of - I’d expect Veikune to be trained there as well - and he’ll need to catch his breath at times. With Mays, Hunter, Woodyard and Veikune available for STs, any one of them can sit for a few moments during the kicking duties and catch their breath. Generally this isn’t necessary, but in addition to potential injury issues and the depth a team needs to overcome them, there are games that are longer and harder on the players than others. Having the right guy fresher at the end can be the point that turns a game into a win. (Not to mention that Darrell Reid was an unusually good ST player, but was lost to knee injuries. Mays and Veikune can replace a lot of what he did - clearing room for the players like McBath and Bruton to do their work).

So, what happened to Moss? In short, a combination of sheer, unadulterated bad luck and a lack of the tools to take his game to the next level in the three systems that Denver has used. The first of those probably influenced the second, but in any case, you can’t take away from Denver their extensive attempts to develop Moss and to get him on the field. From his MVP on the 2009 scout team to the attempts to bring him along this season, Moss received every opportunity to show that he could play in the NFL. In the end, though, the answer, at least from Denver’s viewpoint, was that he couldn’t.

Moss’ problems started with a high school injury to his hip. He awoke the next day, unable to move or dress himself. What made it worse was that no one knew what on earth was wrong with him. Earlier this season, I did a Broncography on him. This is from The Independent Florida Gator:

Jarvis Moss woke up on a regular morning on a regular school day in Denton, Texas, expecting to go out and do great things.

This was a day in the senior season of one of the top defensive ends in the country. Texas loves its high school football. Ryan High sure loved its Moss, a Parade All-American and USA Today First-Team All-American.

This was supposed to be a normal morning, full of promise, hope and big hits.

There was just one problem: Jarvis Moss could not walk.

His chest tightened like a sheet of steel. His stomach hardened into a knot of excruciating pain. Moss climbed up in bed. The pain intensified. He slumped to the floor and reached for a pair of jeans.

He could not dress himself; he could not walk.

I know from experience - that’s a terrifying thing to go through. And, no one could figure out why he was so ill, which is even worse. The final outcome was that they found that he’d developed a staph infection from the injection. IAOFM reader Ponderosa mentioned to me, at my request, that there is a layer beneath the skin in which staph germs live synergistically with the body. This is also true within the joint capsules. But hypodermic needles have a hollow opening and in most cases, a beveled tip that can pick up staph and carry it to other, inappropriate parts of the body. That’s one reason for standard post-operative antibiotics. The infection caused Moss to experience pain, exhaustion, weight loss and other symptoms. He also entered the NFL draft early, and on the basis of a videotape that Moss and his coaches put together, and with the support of Jeff Goodman, the southeast scout for Denver at the time, and Jim Bates, who wouldn't last out Moss’ first season, Jarvis was drafted in the first round by Denver. Mike Shanahan even traded up to obtain him at pick 17 of the first round. Fans were shocked and irritated by this, which made his tenure with the Broncos more difficult for them to understand.

He lost a lot of time off of football, and that may have cost him in terms of learning the game and its intricacies - leaving college early likely didn't help. His first year with Denver, he broke his leg while preparing for a Week 9 game and missed the rest of the season. At 6’7” and slender in build anyway, Moss didn’t put on weight, which may, I’ve been told by other physicians, have been influenced by his staph infection experience. Since he apparently didn’t use that time to successfully learn more intellectually about the game and to read up on moves that he could add when he could move again, part of this still lies on his head. I’m not making excuses for his play - this is just the history of what happened.

You know, it's interesting. Moss might not have been able to make the jump to the NFL anyway - that happens. But with the time lost to the staph infection and the broken bones in his leg, I've often wondered if he hadn't had that staph infection, would he have been able to learn the theory and the moves that he would need in the NFL? If he was the scout team MVP, shouldn't he have learned more? I don't put this on the coaches - OK, Shanny never should have taken him in the first place, and certainly not traded up (although I did, while researching him, find two draft sites that suggested that the mid-first round was an appropriate area for him to be picked - others varied from second to fourth round) - but other than that, he's had every chance in the book. It's tough, but that's on Jarvis at this point.

After all - Doom started at OLB at the same time, and did pretty well. I recognize that Moss is a very different kind of player - Doom is shorter, has long arms with a powerful body and strong hands. With Jarvis, it was more about his speed - one of the knocks on him in his predraft scouting reports was that he depended almost exclusively on speed, and hadn’t learned techniques such as the spin, rip and swim moves. From what I saw this season, he still hadn’t. The simple stuff may work in HS and college, but don’t bring that weak stuff to the NFL. It won’t work.

Probably, he's just not good enough, and won't be. Robert Ayers asserted that he still believes in Moss and that he’ll find another, better situation in the NFL, and he knows him far better than I do. I wish Jarvis nothing but the best with that. After seeing him play some 4-3 DE and some 3-4 OLB, I honestly don't see him doing a Phonz and thriving on another team. Shanny's guys and McD's coaching staff both tried hard to make that work. Jarvis occasionally gave us all some hope that he could develop into a good, pass-rushing OLB over time. He had the time - just not the chops. And while that’s sad for him and for his family, it’s the way of the world in the NFL.

But he never seemed to be anything but a nice guy who just didn’t have the ability to make the jump. He shouldn’t want for lack of money - he made $7.6 million in his 3.5 years with Denver. There’s lots of this kind of player around - nice guys, people you root for and hope will do well, but who just don’t catch on with a certain team, regardless of system. I wish him nothing but the best in whatever he chooses to do next, and if he can find a better NFL home, more power to him.

Take care, Jarvis. I hope that you find wherever it is that your heart - and your future - lies.

Doc

Learn to laugh at yourself. You will be ceaselessly amused. - Sri Gary Olsen

You can reach Doc at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) or follow him on Twitter @alloverfatman

Related

Thanks for the comment, Colinski. Always a pleasure to read your work. One point - I don&#8217t think that I was sufficiently clear, after reading your response. I was referring to the draft as much as talking about the specifics of obtaining a FA or trade player when I suggested that LB experience is helpful when taking on a DE who needs to transition. To let me go back and clarify, please pardon the capitals. I should have rephrased but&#8230:

&#8220I think that while you will always have some surprises, players with some level of NFL experience OR a background in LB seem to have a better chance of making that transition than those that donât.&#8221

My point was that a player who is being considered as a Bullough 3-4 OLB should have a somewhat easier transition if they have played LB at some point - not necessarily in the NFL, but in their background, ala Robert Ayers.

&#8220My argument is that the type of player weâre looking for is generally used as a DE43 in college. Essentially, the ideal somatotype/skill set is being used at the wrong position in college, when looked at from our perspective.&#8221

Absolutely. What I was pointing to was that many of these players that you are referring to were LBs in high school (as you pointed out on Alexander, and a good point it was, too); some started college at LB (such as Ayers, as well) and then moved to DE as they continued to grow and put on weight.

Even if they have been 4-3 DEs in the NFL, that background can still help. Are there a lot of them at the NFL level? I really don&#8217t know that, but I&#8217ve come across several. I think that the principle should hold up either way, though. Draft, trade or FA, if they&#8217ve done both successfully at some point, they&#8217re more likely to be comfortable with the change.

Any time that a team can get their kind of player at DE, a &#8216tweener with good skills for the Denver system and a background at linebacker, who can point to their record at that position as well as they accomplishments at DE, I think it&#8217s a positive. It establishes that the player&#8217s skillset will include at least some of the factors that the manuals dictate. It&#8217s my feeling - and only that - that this should increase the number of successful transitions.

That won&#8217t always be the case. Jarvis Moss would never have been drafted by the current Broncos despite their willingness to try and develop him, and his experience at LB, although somewhat brief, did little to suggest success at the NFL level. And, I&#8217ve no doubt that plenty of players with a linebacker background who moved to DE won&#8217t make it in the NFL, but it still helps to be able to look at film, when available, of them at that position as well as DE to make that decision. After all, that&#8217s where you want them to play for you.

I can&#8217t agree with you enough on the issue of Lee Robinson, which I noted in another comment. I did a Broncography on him at one point, and it will be in our archives when Doug actually has a couple of free hours. (I can&#8217t say enough good things about the hard work and long hours that Doug, David (our design expert) and TJ have put in to get this site together, by the way. Me? I just write). Here&#8217s a Draftguys video report on Robinson for those who are interested:

Note that they specifically state that he&#8217s going to take a few years to develop. Denver has reconsidered letting him get away, and as Colinski points out, that&#8217s a good sign. As I&#8217ve mentioned, so is Alexander getting onto the active 53 man squad, which protects him from being poached. That says something about how the Broncos see him long term prospects. Both of these young men show potential - I hope that Denver can bring it out in them.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2010-11-22 19:46:57

Reply to Doc&#8212a few more comments re: OLB34.

I could go on for a long time on this subject.

Interestingly, Alexander took a trajectory similar to Ayers&#8217 but without the blue chip designation (although he garnered scholarship offers from Auburn, Alabama, and others). It&#8217s odd because he started college as an undersized LB who needed strength work and left as a powerful DE. I assume he played on the strong side.

&#8221 - I think that while you will always have some surprises, players with some level of NFL experience or a background in LB seem to have a better chance of making that transition than those that donât. - Doc Bear &#8220

My argument is that the type of player we&#8217re looking for is generally used as a DE43 in college. Essentially, the ideal somatotype/skill set is being used at the wrong position in college, when looked at from our perspective. We&#8217re clearly not going to turn up our noses at a OLB34 with NFL experience but there aren&#8217t many available and there&#8217s a surplus of DE43s who might make the transition. And many of the DEs are pass rushing specialists who aren&#8217t well suited to our system. Finding the right type is half the challenge.

Another point that I neglected to mention relates to how build the roster. We already addressed the S-OLB position last year and we&#8217re also set with Dumervil on the other side. There&#8217s some veteran depth in Hunter and Haggan so the rest of the backups should be developmental. And the amount of developmental prospects makes it even more essential. We tried going with veteran talent in the beginning of the season, when Atkins and Moss were still on the roster, but we eventually went with youth for some reason.

I think you can see the positional characteristics the staff is looking for even without looking at the depth chart. Alexander is clearly intended as Ayers&#8217 backup while Veikune is obviously a Dumervil type. &#8216The book&#8217 is obviously specifying certain ideal physical characteristics and many of the OLBs on our pre-season roster could have been produced with from the same cookie cutter. And that even extends to mental characteristics.

The point that I&#8217ve reiterated many times in the past is that good teams develop players rather than rely on ready-made prospects. the system philosophy relies on heavily prescribed physical characteristics and their drive and intelligence to help develop them into superior players after a long rigorous apprenticeship. Any fans looking for instant gratification may be disappointed.

McDaniels&#8217 detractors have equated these positional specifications with despotism, which is ridiculous. Positional specifications are the product of positional duties. Players with the appropriate traits are given the chance to succeed but it still takes time, and the off-season is where much of this development occurs.

On a related note&#8212I was extremely happy to see Lee Robinson brought back in. His cut surprised me. What these acquisitions seem to show is that the staff is continually re-evaluating and even changing their minds about the decisions they&#8217ve made previously. The decision to cut Colquitt and keep Kern is another example of a decision reconsidered. Whether Alexander, Veikune and Robinson will earn roster spots next year is open to question but it&#8217s still encouraging to see all the moves.

Here&#8217s what&#8217s changed at LB:

[new]

Mays

Hunter

Veikune

Alexander

Robinson

[old]

Davis

Reid

Moss

Throw a few draftees or FAs in the mix and I think you&#8217ve potentially got a very exciting group. We missed on some LBs lately when other teams snatched them away but it won&#8217t take much to make a serious upgrade.

Posted by colinski on 2010-11-22 08:32:30

Thanks to you both for some great responses.

Posted by SteveUk on 2010-11-21 10:07:09

Good points, Colinski.

There is already an impending log-jam at OLB for Denver, which is a good problem to have. It seems to me that Denver is both playing people who are becoming experienced depth, and developing both starters and developmental depth. Alexander is one of the latter.

I think that while you will always have some surprises, players with some level of NFL experience or a background in LB seem to have a better chance of making that transition than those that don&#8217t.

Mario Haggan was an over-sized strongside/MLB in a 4-3 and thus made the transition more easily than most players - it was his natural scheme to be a 3-4 OLB. Players who are somewhat slower, including Haggan, can have that issue minimized by use of the 3-4. Haggan also noted this about the OLB:

“No disrespect to any other position, but I feel like the outside linebacker is probably the most vital position on the defense,” Haggan said. “We don’t put up big tackles, but if you watch film and watch what we do every day, when you watch D.J. or Andra (Davis - the quote is from 2009) come across and make a tackle for a loss – if the edge was set well, it’s going to end up being a big play.”

The changeover from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is a clearly two-edged sword. Most coaches are coming to accept that in the NFL today, given the rules that favor passing, the 3-4 is a more flexible approach that offers the chance for different options, more suited to the modern passing game. It&#8217s weakness can be against runs up the middle, but that is dependent on how the middle is defended and the use of the ILBs. The extra size of the Bullough 3-4 LB, in particular, can make up for the loss of a DT.

At this point in Denver&#8217s development the Broncos are keeping Alexander on the 53 man squad, which indicates to me that they are seeing something in him which is worth development. I also see that the McX team are cognizant of the longer term picture: Mays is 25, Hunter 27, DJ 28, Wes Woodyard only 24, Doom is 26, Alexander 23 and Veikune 24. I&#8217d put Veikune and Alexander in as developmental regardless of 3-4 or 4-3 - they&#8217re young, and still developing experience.

While many commented when he was drafted that Ayers had never played LB, he actually had in HS and part of his first active year in college. In fact, this is only part of his history:

&#8220Earned All-State honors as a linebacker and was selected to play in the 2003 Shrine Bowl of the Carolinas. Added All-South honors from Fox Sports Net and was a Top 100 Dream Team choice by Prep Star. Super Prep rated him the third-best linebacker prospect in the nation and the second-best overall prospect in the state of South Carolina. ESPN&#8217s Tom Lemming rated him the seventh-best linebacker in the country and he received a four-star ranking from Rivals.com.&#8221 (From a previous Broncography)

This explains to me part of why he&#8217s transitioned fairly well. He arrived a little late to training camp, and had to catch up on the fly, but by the end of the year, it was clear that he had a lot of potential. He was maturing quickly when he was hurt.

Atkins hadn&#8217t played LB that I could find - and he didn&#8217t make it. We may be seeing more scouts looking at that kind of background - it may be helpful for the player&#8217s integration into the new system. Tim Crowder was a backup and still is, for TB. When asked to move, he noted that he&#8217d never played LB. His comment was, &#8220I feel like a rookie again. I&#8217m learning everything again.&#8221

Two things come out of this. It seems Denver sees Colinski&#8217s point on the developmental side of things and is active in working on it (Lee Robinson looks greatly like a young Mario Haggan and he&#8217s on the PS) and that the age spread of our LBs also indicated that Denver is working on developing a core that will be around for some time to come, and on having a wide spread, from players who aren&#8217t ready yet to the 30 year old Haggan, who didn&#8217t seem old last week.

I&#8217d echo Colinski&#8217s final point - it is too early to be concerned with whether Alexander or Veikune can help other than special teams. Given that competition is one of McD&#8217s watchwords, the next training camp should be a wild ride for the LBs. I&#8217m looking forward to it.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2010-11-21 06:34:04

MORE - re: Alexander.

The automated response notification brought me back but I decided I wanted to make one more comment even though its late.

Alexander&#8217s route to being on the team says something about his current level of talent(training) but not his long-term prospects&#8212he was on the PS initially and eventually took over a slot that was originally, and briefly, occupied by Baraka Atkins.

Talent tells a little of the story, and I wouldn&#8217t expect a UDFA to play much in his first year unless circumstances warranted it, but I think the best way to look at the OLB34 situation is as a &#8216cattle call&#8217 with the intent of training.

The term &#8216cattle call&#8217 is used by the entertainment industry for auditions in which anyone and everyone is given a tryout. We looked at a great number of potential OLB34s and nearly every one of them was new to the position. I think this is VERY important.

Colleges are producing a lot of OLB34s because there aren&#8217t many 3-4 defenses in college. On the other hand, colleges are producing lots of DE43s and that&#8217s one of the places where we&#8217re finding our OLB34s.

The point is that the OLB34 position doesn&#8217t use prospects who are familiar with the position so much as prospects who might eventually become good players at it, nearly always after considerable training. One way of looking at Moss&#8217s somewhat surprisingly long tenure as a Bronco is that an extended period was required to make the evaluation of whether he could play OLB34 because he, like all the others, was new to the position.

I jumped back on this topic because there&#8217s an unstated assumption that players are finished projects who refine their craft over time. This belief is a what I would call a &#8216false framing&#8217 because the underlying idea is that developing talent is akin to picking low-hanging fruit. Players don&#8217t change so much as stay the same, and the idea of continuity is reinforced while the idea of change (transformation, etc.) is minimized. And this understanding is delivered through the cognitive process of understanding language so it&#8217s essentially a subconscious process.

The question&#8212how is Alexander doing?&#8212is certainly a good question but it may be too early to tell. How long does it take to make a DE43 into a NFL OLB34? I don&#8217t know, but it probably takes more time than he&#8217s had. Our long-term prospects are quite good, considering that Dumervil and Ayers are coming back along with the fact that we&#8217ll have Hunter in reserve, so the prospect of having two developmental OLB34s (Alexander & Veikune) is acceptable for now. We wouldn&#8217t necessarily want to waste the opportunity to train someone by using their spots on vets even though the loss of Dumervil and Ayers made that sound attractive. There&#8217s always a tension between experienced depth and developmental depth. We&#8217re still at a point of developing talent which may become of experienced depth in time but I wouldn&#8217t want to sacrifice this developmental opportunity just so critics will have less to complain about. And I certainly wouldn&#8217t rule out drafting a OLB34 but the question of whether Alexander or Veikune can help us is still premature.

Posted by colinski on 2010-11-20 22:53:54

Kevin Alexander&#8217s name hasn&#8217t come up only because Denver hasn&#8217t chosen to use him. Whether it&#8217s a wealth of players at his slot, letting him see the game and mature or a borderline level of talent, he just hasn&#8217t made it into the rotation - yet, at least.

I still hope for good things for the young man. Alexander was a little slow to read the plays in the past, and that may be an issue. The simple fact that Denver is keeping him on and working to develop him gives him a shot, but OLB is a crowded position, and he&#8217ll have to do something to separate himself for the pack. As a CFA, he may hang around for a year or two and then we&#8217ll see. The fact is - he&#8217s in a group where the competition is high. It won&#8217t be easy for him, but he still has that chance.

Speaking of a chance, a happy &#8216Welcome back&#8217 to Andre Brown, who is back on the practice squad. If travel broadens your horizons, and they once liked to say, he should be a very broad-minded fellow by now. Best of luck, Andre!

Posted by Doc Bear on 2010-11-19 18:11:22

In all this discussion about linebackers I am surprised that Kevin Alexander hasn&#8217t been mentioned. Doc I know that you have had your eye on this lad for sometime and I just wanted to hear what your thoughts were on what role Alexander may have in the 2nd half of this season.

Will Veikune be active for the game Monday and will this see potentially Alexander have a bigger role?

Posted by SteveUk on 2010-11-19 08:30:33

I just remembered hearing after the &#821607 season that Moss was actually coming on before his season-ending injury. Had he not been injured, I think that we would have seen a different player. Having success puts a player in a good frame of mind about their abilities and how they can contribute in a - as this one - a defensive scheme.

I personally don&#8217t remember much from that season as I was ill for much of it. Recovered in &#821608.

Excellent discussion everyone! Great stuff!

Posted by BlackKnight on 2010-11-19 07:11:30

I follow the Browns as we have a friend who is a strong Brown fan. I remember Veikune being picked in &#821609 and perusing him as a fit for the Browns. My sense is that he suffered a similar fate as did several of their other personnel - never really given a chance to blossom - partly because of changes in coaching etc. I think the present regime in place in Cleveland has a more long term plan. However, I read during TC that they were thinking of cutting Colt McCoy - so I wonder. I guess we will see if Mr Veikune fits here. Hope so.

I agree with Colinski about the OL being a harbinger of our team congealing. It appears to be doing just that. I have felt all year long that if we had these guys in their respective positions - and a pretty good sub for Harris when needed - the OL would give the team an added edge. I had hoped that that would occur about game 6 - the Jets game. But here it seems to be happening 3 games later. I wouldn&#8217t be surprised if we won most of the last 7 games - possibly all of them. That sounds like a tall order - but what the hell - 10 and 6 until we ain&#8217t!!!!

Posted by BlackKnight on 2010-11-19 06:57:53

WHERE HE RANKED

I realize that some fans immediately jump on nearly every draft pick but the truth is that Moss wasn&#8217t a poor pick, nor was moving up to take him necessarily a flawed strategy since we had a legitimate fear of losing him to another team. Frank Cooney had Moss at #30 and Scott Wright had him at #35. It wasn&#8217t much of a stretch and our needs on the DL were getting dire. Hindsight bias is most noticeable thing about certain fans&#8217 opinions, along with a vast overestimation of their scouting ability and skill at projection. I know who I wanted&#8212Willis&#8212but that&#8217s a different story, and he would have cost us dearly.

Neither Moss nor Crowder turned into the players we hoped they&#8217d become, but attitudes about the two picks are different because of how they were acquired and the belief in not wasting pick value. Crowder was a sound pick whose apparent value (according to draftniks) was above where we picked him (or at least near), so his short-lived career here carried far less attendant controversy. It could be argued that his &#8216fit&#8217 was more of a problem but he probably would have drawn trade interest if the problem was solely related to our scheme change.

My point is simply about attitudes&#8212Crowder was cut without fanfare while Moss remained longer, still carrying the burden for how he was acquired. The truth is that all the highly rated DLs from 2007 fared poorly. Any of the alternate choices that kibitzers preferred would have disappointed, too.

What struck me about Moss&#8217s career here was how little the organization seemed to put into player development. Long apprenticeships shouldn&#8217t be a problem, but the organizations that use this approach are in a perpetual rebuilding mode and have satisfied fan bases because of their on-the-field results. Our situation was far different. And that was a part of the problem.

The problem wasn&#8217t ours alone, of course. But the lack of scrutiny that was placed on his pick was paralleled by the lack of thought that was put into player development. Unlike those other franchises, we didn&#8217t have a plan for player development. We couldn&#8217t allow Moss to settle in under Ekuban or Engelberger and learn his craft because their positions were as precarious as his, as was that of the entire defense. Suggestions that we blow up the defense at that time were frequently literal.

What I&#8217m seeing now is a highly active management team that&#8217s intent on bringing in a certain type of player. Veikune isn&#8217t a savior but he&#8217s the type of player we would have drafted initially if we had had the opportunity. There&#8217s a point here that many would miss&#8212we&#8217re still bringing in &#8216good fits&#8217 and many of them are showing signs of eventually becoming successes. What&#8217s lost on people who live by the build by the draft mantra (I do, too, but not as dogma) is that there&#8217s a lot of value in the players we&#8217re scavenging. Nobody thought players such as Hunter, Vickerson, etc., had much value at the time we acquired them. Not many seem to realize it but the nature of this team has changed. We&#8217ve filled the holes, added &#8216good fits,&#8217 and the last element is growing together as a team, which takes time together.

Pardon the stream-of-consciousness nature of this post but I see evidence of the plan&#8212finally. I&#8217m not saying that there wasn&#8217t evidence before but the &#8216system&#8217 seems more apparent now than ever before. Players such as Veikune may eventually be supplanted in upcoming drafts but the traits he brings are part of an idea that should take hold and become the Bronco way identity that we lacked just a couple years ago.

Here&#8217s a prediction&#8212I&#8217d look to the OL for signs that our team is congealing. The defense is even more interesting in some ways, because it&#8217s become so young, but the running game could begin to show big improvement if we stay in the current OL configuration. This is a young team despite the presence of older vets and we&#8217re due for a late season run.

Posted by colinski on 2010-11-19 06:21:27

Cox is promising, but two things concern me. First and foremost, I am not sure he has great recovery speed when he gets beat. That places a lot of pressure on him to always make the right read and be in good position. Champ has awesome recovery speed and we see him use it fairly often even with his excellent ability to read routes. A less concerning, but from my perspective more frustrating as someone who used to play CB in HS, is basic mental errors. Look, there is a huge learning curve. I recognize that and learning opposite Champ undoubtedly exposes his weaknesses like no other. These errors, however, often have been fairly basic, like playing the inside route when he had safety help inside instead of playing the outside route. The result? A TD to Kenny Britt. This is the best example, but he seems to haven been out of position fairly often in some games. I think this will get better with practice, but with questionable recovery speed, IMO, he needs to really limit the mental errors.

Posted by OrangeandBlue27 on 2010-11-19 03:28:49

Doc, I never disliked Larsen. I just saw a serious, straight ahead knock you over football player when watching Mays, and I thought that&#8217d serve well in a fullback position. But, not saying he should replace Larsen. Mays also has some great feet, as he would get through much bigger guys to tackle KC&#8217s running back.

I&#8217m excited about Monday&#8217s game. The kool-aid is tasting good after that big win last Sunday. I guess that&#8217s what being a fan is all about.

Posted by jtomasik on 2010-11-19 03:28:33

Good points on safety. Yes, I think that Bruton is about ready to play - he has, at times, including later in the KC game (beyond ST, that is). He looks very good - hit hard, is learning to respond to the play faster. He&#8217s faster in the 40 than McBath, but McBath is a classic coverage safety in the mold of Renaldo Hill. Good tackler, too.

I loved the 46, but I have one point to make - McMichael and Hampton were brilliant, and I doubt that I&#8217ve seen two better DTs side by side. However - in the KC game, Bannan, M. Thomas and Vickerson all drew double teams on different plays, as did J. Williams. Vickerson and Bannan are excellent DEs, and both will draw double teams consistently. We do need a NT who draws more of them, but M. Thomas was getting into the KC backfield too often when he was at the nose, and they doubled him on every pass after that. he&#8217s very good at creating penetration if they play him one on one. He can&#8217t really defeat a double team, but that&#8217s not the job, although it&#8217s nice when it happens.

But KC is a lighter, ZB team. It&#8217s a very different story against, say, the Jets or Ravens. Their lines are very stout. Still - with the DE bookends in place, we need one guy in the middle who can force choices that are danged if you do, danged if you don&#8217t.

One reason that the 46 defense worked so well that hasn&#8217t come up - it&#8217s a man coverage attack, with one safety back and the other roaming. Named for the uni number of Doug Plank - both one of the best and simultaneously one of the dirtiest safeties to every play the game, he was a big reason that the scheme worked, beyond what JH has already shared. They never knew where Plank was coming from.

So, McBath, other than his broken arm, has showed very good technique, and Bruton is more powerful. Both tackle very well. Kyle McCarthy has been getting some reps, too, especially on ST. I think that they&#8217re looking at whether he can be developed or not. If not, a safety in FA or the draft will be essential.

Personally, I&#8217m actually more worried about CB right now. Cox looks great, we need to have an upgrade over Jones, even if he is great at the CB blitz. Syd&#8217Quan may make it, might not - we&#8217ll see.

One thing is certain to me - this is a huge improvement over 2008. As long as we&#8217re going in the right direction, I&#8217m pretty happy. It&#8217s worth considering that Bannan has played NT and drew double teams for the Ravens as well as playing DE for them in their rotation. I&#8217ve like a little more heft in the middle, but that&#8217s system dependent - from Jay Ratliff with Dallas at 306 to J. Williams at 348, you can do the NT a lot of different ways.

Dallas runs a Phillips 3-4 that emphasizes penetration and single gap attacking. Denver is using a Bullough variation, and a bigger guy suits the system more. Still - Williams, Bannan, M. Thomas and R. Fields have all played at the NT slot. Now that&#8217s versatile!

Posted by Doc Bear on 2010-11-19 02:47:46

Any listeners of Sirius NFL radio will know that the first thing Tim Ryan and Pat Kirwin, by far my two favorite hosts, ask a DE prospect is &#8220what&#8217s your counter move&#8221. In other words, what do you turn to when the tackle takes away your go to move? Jarvis had no counter move. As you point out Doc, he didn&#8217t have even a basic repetoire of pass rush moves and in no way could convert speed to power, like Doom and someone like Peppers can do. That&#8217s a cake walk all day long for an NFL tackle, who can just play the outside speed rush all day long without much worry about Moss beating him another way. A few times, I remember Moss cut across a tackle&#8217s face back inside with some success. That got me excited, but he never did it consistently.

Posted by OrangeandBlue27 on 2010-11-19 02:31:10

I do worry about safety too, and hope they address that in the draft next season I *will* say however, that I do like McBath a lot and think the fact that he has been hurt is the biggest issue. I do expect him to supplant Hill soon. But yeah Dawkins is nearing the end of his career, too, so more depth there would be good. Is Bruton close to ready to play more? I like him, too, but maybe they prefer him only on ST and as a backup.

I agree, expect DL to be addressed in offseason as well as S.

Posted by underdog on 2010-11-19 01:40:59

I agree with everyone that linebacker isn&#8217t a pressing issue on defense. I do think, however, that DL and safety are pressing issues. There is no one on the DL currently who demands a double team. This is essential for a great defense because the only advantage that defenses have today in the NFL is that they outnumber the offense at the line of scrimmage (true throughout history). If you look at the 85 Bears, most people regard their linebackers as the reason they were terrific. The linebackers were great, but the 46 was dependent on Hampton and Dent, two players who required double-teams but only one could be at any one time (Hampton because he was in the middle). That is one reason the 46 isn&#8217t played often anymore - who has 2 DL who require double teams? Even when they stopped playing the 46, they ranked near the top in defense a few times because of this advantage, even without Marshall or Wilson.

Safety is becoming a BIG problem if we are going to be truly honest about what we are seeing. Dawkins has slowed tremendously - he is missing tackles he never used to miss and is a step slow on many plays. I hate to say it, but it is likely that his play goes over a cliff next year because of age. The other safety position covered by Renaldo Hill is average at best. McBath has been hurt, so I don&#8217t know where he fits in, but I&#8217m pretty sure at this point he isn&#8217t Dawkins in his prime, otherwise, he would start over Hill.

I expect in the offseason that DL and safety to be the prime area targeted for talent acquisition. TE and OL as well. I&#8217m interested to see what you guys think of this assessment.

Posted by John Hilton on 2010-11-19 01:27:36

NN - Good points, all. A couple of thoughts:

1. I&#8217m not basing my enjoyment of Mays on the one game, but on his work in the past and the benefits of the specific scheme that McD has him in. Since he&#8217s covering strongside at ILB, his long-touted ability to read and respond quickly pays double benefits. He has the room to get to the edge on a run - Bannan and Ayers will be in front of him, and they tend to take out the trash in terms of clearing out blockers - and to respond to a pass in his zone. His run stopping is linked to his performance on STs - he has very good tackling form, and hits like a truck.

While he missed his timing on one pass, the others were very good, and he&#8217s far more appropriate in terms of somatype - his level of strength and his center of gravity, along with his weight and hand quickness - than even Woodyard against TEs. That IS something that he&#8217ll have to prove against other teams, but he managed it well with KC.

2. Keep in mind that Veikune has spent much of his time at ILB, and his somatype (at 6&#82172 and 257) is appropriate for the Broncos scheme and position manual. He may end up being the 4th ILB or moving outside. In a perfect scenario, he could do both. Perfection tends to be elusive, but sometimes you get lucky.

3. If he doesn&#8217t pan out, I fully agree - let&#8217s look at an option beyond Doom. Ayers will be a large help, pun intended, when he returns this week (at least once he knocks the rust off). Actually, Ayers and Haggan on the OLB, with Hunter backing up Haggan is also a nice option for sack production.

If you look at the injuries and how they affected the LBs we have used and their positions, it really shows how important having solid, rotation-ready backups really is. One poster who coaches has noted that a team is really as good as its worst backup. Point made.

4. I&#8217m going to be interested in what plays out, any way this goes. Doom may find himself playing in a more situational role - Hunter is a much better run defender. Haggan, happily, can go pretty much anywhere, but seems happiest on the outside. Depending on Mays consistency and Veikune&#8217s skillset as it turns out to fit the Broncos, Haggan may not need to go back to ILB. However - he&#8217s the kind of guy that you want on the field as much as possible, which may get difficult with Hunter&#8217s development. That could pit him against Mays at ILB, and Haggan right now is probably more diverse in his abilities. he&#8217s 30, though, and preparing for the future is part of the team&#8217s job.

My honest feeling is that we have enough LBs unless something really great comes up in the draft - I&#8217d never give up a chance to upgrade. However, the corps isn&#8217t old (Haggan is 30, but the rest are young to midrange) and there are a wide range of skillsets there. Training camp next time it&#8217s held should be a great chance for competition. There&#8217s a lot of talent there. Thanks for the comment - good thoughts.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2010-11-19 00:38:30

Yes, jvill, you&#8217re right. I noted above that mid-first was called by some of the sites. Shanahan wasn&#8217t alone in that by a long shot. Jeff Goodman and Jim Bates were also on board.

I think that if more people back then knew as much as fans who follow the draft just on the &#8216net - it was only 4 years back, but that&#8217s 8 lifetimes in the tech fields - he would have been of much less interest, considering the health issues and his early exit from college. Even so, I know lots of folks who loved the pick. The draft will always be clear and simple - in hindsight <img alt="wink" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/wink.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

Posted by Doc Bear on 2010-11-19 00:15:16

First off, best of luck to Jarvis Moss wherever he goes. It is sometimes difficult as a fan to separate our annoyance at the lack of a player&#8217s production from the person/player, but Moss seemed to be a good person and consumnate team mate

Looking at our future (healthy) LB core, here is what I see:

SOLB - Ayers, backed up by Haggan (due to his strength in the run game)

SILB - Mays on running downs, Woodyard on passing downs

WILB - DJ

WOLB - Doom, backed up by Hunter and Veikune (if he sticks)

I would be pretty happy with that group. There is some impressive flexibility possible. Imagine running against a front of Ayers, Mays, DJ and Haggan? S-T-O-U-T.

It also allows us to rotate OLB&#8217s with pass rush ability (Doom, Hunter and possibly Veikune) when the situation calls for it

Points of concern?

I am a little worried that we might be overestimating Mays based on one good game, but we shall see with the rest of this season

If Veikune doesn&#8217t pan out, it would be nice to groom a young pass rushing OLB

Before the bye, drafting another ILB looked like a foregone conclusion, but I honestly don&#8217t know anymore

Hammertime on 1st and 2nd down? Mays

TE coverage? Woodyard

3 down ability? DJ

Unless you are sure you can upgrade one of those spots, I don&#8217t see the need for more than 3 full-time ILBs, especially with Haggan&#8217s ability to shift over

Here is to Mays and Veikune panning out, because it will give us so much more flexibility moving forward!

Posted by NaggleNole on 2010-11-19 00:14:08

Whoops&#8212I meant to say TPN predicted Denver would take Moss IN THE FIRST ROUND.

Posted by jvill on 2010-11-18 23:08:12

Regarding Moss&#8217s draft ranking, I remember reading The Sporting News and they actually were predicting Denver draft Moss. I don&#8217t think that was their final prediction, but it was certainly in one of the cycles. I actually liked him, and told my draft watching buddies that Denver might pick Moss.

I was psyched then&#8212I&#8217m brilliant!

I don&#8217t think I&#8217ve ever been so unhappy to have been right.

Posted by jvill on 2010-11-18 23:07:34

Hey guys. Good questions, as always.

ud -

ow wouldnât moving Haggan to OLB permanently make more sense at this point?

Yes, absolutely. The only thing that might stand in its way is the play of Jason Hunter, who has been stout on the weakside. Woodyard is good at ILB, but Mays may actually be better, especially when we play running teams.

Ayers is built for the strongside, and I envision a role for him next year that uses him at OLB and at times dropping into DE (probably in a 4-3, but Wink may come up with a hybrid), just as McD said when he drafted him. This is the first time in a long time that I can look at Denver LBs and see trouble in finding enough playing time for all of them. it&#8217s a great problem to have.

bk - I&#8217m honestly pretty useless on contracts, so I&#8217ll defer. TJ or Doug will know&#8212I&#8217ll ask. The one thing that concerned me with Veikune is that some of the fan boards claimed that he didn&#8217t work hard enough. Many such boards don&#8217t know squat, but it&#8217s something to look for. Since he needs to be trained more in the LB side of things, we&#8217ll have to wait and see where he lands - but he&#8217ll be on STs first.

JT - Mays&#8217 average 40 time was 4.87, neither good nor horrible. However - his play recognition and reaction time are excellent, and balances a lot of that out, making him seem faster. He IS faster to the ball on D.

Fullback? Not crazy at all. I love Larsen there, but I know that you haven&#8217t in the past. However - given what Mays gave the team on KC Sunday I don&#8217t see them moving him. SD&#8217s Tolbert is similar - a bowling ball kind of guy, and he gets it done.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2010-11-18 22:45:02

Any idea what Mays&#8217 40 time is? It&#8217d be trick if you could use that guy as a straight ahead fullback&#8230he&#8217s so stout and short, I&#8217d bet he&#8217d do pretty good. Yeah&#8230crazy talk I know, but he just looks like he can destroy people who get in his way.

Posted by jtomasik on 2010-11-18 22:30:53

Very nice read,Doc. I wish Moss well as well. I wouldn&#8217t be surprised that he is picked up yet this season. There are teams short on LB and DEs. He might just find the right fit.

Question: if some team picks him up, do they also assume the rest of his contract (and the money owed) with Denver or so they start over with a new one?

The Veikune addition makes a lot of sense. He appears to be versatile - can play OLB, ST and possibly ILB. He appears to have a lot of upside and gas left in his tank as he was an &#821609 pick.

Posted by BlackKnight on 2010-11-18 22:10:33

Great stuff, Doc. I really do wish Moss the best, hope he finds himself or reinvents himself with another team down the road (though not a rival) but it&#8217s hard to picture at this point. I love the Veikune pick up, the team needs more Tongans! And I love the way Mays is playing, and I love the news that Ayers is coming back (though it may take him a game or 2 to get back to his level at beginning of season).

Now wouldn&#8217t moving Haggan to OLB permanently make more sense at this point? He excelled there vs KC and is a better pass rusher. Maybe he and Ayers on the outside; Woodyard/Mays and Williams on the inside for good? Hunter seems like he can play either? Anyway, suddenly, the LB corps doesn&#8217t seem so pathetic and next season they get Dumervil back - and I also expect them to draft a LB pretty high in the draft, so that bodes well.