Online Semi-Exclusive: “The Intermarriage Artist”

I recently came back from a conference where I unintentionally ruffled a few intermarried feathers when I read a piece about why I’ve decided to only date Jews.

How are we supposed to approach the concept of intermarriage? Can we even discuss it without someone getting offended? And if I choose to limit myself to dating only Jews, will people who make a different choice ever understand that my choice isn’t necessarily a condemnation of their marital decisions? And does anyone understand my reference to this piece’s Kafkaesque title?

21 comments

Marni(9 years)

I applaud you for your stance, one that I share. I always make my dating intentions clear to Jews and non-Jews alike that I only date other MOT’s and I make no apologies, and once I explain how important it is to me, by friends all respect my choice. I felt a tinge of anger when I read that those who did intermarry were “offended” by your stance, because you have nothing for which to be sorry. Be proud of who you are, what you are actively choosing, and the life you hope to provide for your family one day. It’s always nice to come across someone who feels the same way I do about this. I could go on and on but I don’t want to hijack the blog. Anyways, thanks for making me smile and for reminding me of why I choose to reject 96-98% of the U.S. dating pool.

But wait! That must mean that upwards of possibly 2% are seemingly convertible then Marni, right? That’s very hopeful!

But it’s a very touchy issue, naturally. I don’t know why it seems that when you make a positive affirmation of Your choice for whom you want to spend your time married to that others are somehow offended. I recognize the dynamic, somehow they think you’re disrespecting their choices or have found them wanting. No, the first choice was your choice. How you feel about their arrangements may be completely secondary. (Sometimes it’s not however, but it’s always more complex than deciding for yourself).

But everyone everywhere are too easily offended too. About everything. If you can not make this choice for yourself, then you are living a lesser & more constricted life. I could go on but long histories are flashing before me, and I’ve got work to do. But thanks for the report from the battlefield. And of course these are the allies, right?! Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’

I think something is missing in this discussion — namely, the process of meeting and getting to know someone. If one is actively “dating,” i.e. seeking out a guy, then you can choose the type you will date. But if you happen to meet or stumble upon people in the ordinary course of your life, getting to know them organically, you run the risk of getting to know someone non-Jewish, and what if the process evolves so that he becomes the best choice?

It’s fine to decide to “date” only Jewish guys. But I think most good marriages don’t start with a “date.” They start with a normal encounter, like at school or work, and then you see each other every day and enjoy each other’s company, and it grows from there. In which case the decision can become “not dating” an unJewish guy — actively turning down someone you know is terrific because he fails to be Jewish.

Well it’s truly fraught with plenty of real difficulties, not the least of which actually is the numbers, and the sheer paucity of ‘like minded’ matches possible. Marni’s 2% of the population is the ‘standard’ sort of take on the demographics. Depending on your level of religious observation and how you choose interpret the numbers you’re still looking at a very small universe of ‘likely’ & possible & potential mates. If for example you’re going for the age 23-45 never married or divorced, college educated, but still reasonably observant Jewish guy, we can suspect that the numbers are at or around 500K within 1000 mi+ radius from where Marni sits. (Truth be told I suspect that it’s a bit less than this).

That’s a very tough nut to crack actually. You’re effectively looking for a needle in a different haystack. Perhaps one that is many miles distant from your haystack. Without the Net, folks would be severely disadvantaged in such a search, lacking an tightly knit insular community that was more common prior to WW11.

And clearly it’s just not Jews who are having difficulty in finding their Bashert. Lots of other folks do. But as ptwelve noted, this is just another level of abstraction added into the mix. It can make the odds a bit longer. In certain very conservative communities, it actually makes the choice a bit simpler, but then again they live more differently than most of us too.

So it’s a very cautious balance, finding someone who has all the qualities you seek in a mate, and the proper level of religious observance too. It’s never been easy, and again half the battle is in the target location. Both LA & NYC should be ‘target rich’, but still, they are particularly known as tough dating towns. And as we’ve seen moving to Israel is now panacea either.

In the future I’m sure they’ll have an implantable chip for all this too. Different modules you might pick up from the store. Because heavens knows we’re somehow managing to be getting further & further apart all the time!

I remember reading about “pet retention,” which involves efforts to get people not to abandon their pets. The pets with the highest rate of retention were the strays. People weren’t looking for a pet — they didn’t go to the pet store or the shelter — but some little cat came ’round and they fed it and the cat insinuated itself into their heart.
So maybe there’s an analagy here.

I’m not quite seeing it ptwelve. Always and almost everywhere in the modern Western ethos pets and potential pets are treated better than many humans. We typically feel more badly about mistreated pets than mistreated humans. Human trafficking & the new age of modern slavery (mostly for slave labor, naturally) is hardly known or reported on. But let one severe case of animal abuse become known in a community, and that person’s an automatic pariah. Children might be abused for years without much comment or notice. The animals? They get discovered more quickly, because more people care about the ‘innocent animals’ than for most kids, strangely enough.

But perhaps you are talking about the notion of diversity and the ‘opportunity for selection’ (in mathematical terms). If we approached this as a maximum likelihood test, we could investigate this notion a bit further. But I imagine it may require more information that we have at hand at the moment.

Or we can take a more experimental approach to the question. Give a certain select population of experimental subjects, say Jewish singles, and introduce well engineered & select ‘strays’ (here defined simply as otherwise well educated & accomplished Non Jews) into the mix and see what happens. Here I think your supposition might have the greatest chance of some success, but still the time horizon might be too long to come up with anything definitive. And we’d need a much more precise definition of ‘strays’ too!

But the results so far from natural experiments seemingly do ‘prove’ that it’s getting to be more difficult for Jews to marry fellow Jews, for whatever reason. Rates of intermarriage have been creeping upwards for many years, decades in fact. Opportunity & likelihood may be one of the more serious factors here, but so are many unknowns. Which is why it’s such a serious ‘hot topic’ that generates plenty of emotions on all sides.

There are humans who do attract and find themselves attracted to ‘strays’ as potential mates. We recognize this as a sort of ‘rescuer’ complex. And sometimes this is not a very good thing to be wrapped up into. But hey, we’re not here to hold judgment. Just to report on some of the facts ma’am. Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’

VJ, my point was about looking vs. not-looking (not so much that the non-Jews were the strays, and not any rescuer-complex thing). I think if you’re not looking but something does come along, that has a great chance of success. Or, rather, if something comes along that you’re not looking for, it has a great chance of success. If it is good enough to get beyond your resistance, it has got to be pretty good.
I do know that all the guys I’ve liked the most were ones who entered my life totally randomly and unexpectedly. This may or may not hold for everyone but it has been true for me.

“But the results so far from natural experiments seemingly do ‘prove’ that it’s getting to be more difficult for Jews to marry fellow Jews, for whatever reason. Rates of intermarriage have been creeping upwards for many years, decades in fact.”

I agree that it’s true that it’s harder to marry Jewish now than it was decades ago.

Why do you think this is? Is it because we have higher standards than our grandparents had? Is it because the interests of the American Jewish population have become more diverse, thus giving us less in common with each other?

Are there just fewer Jews to find? The Jewish population of the NYC area used to be 2.25 million after WWII, now it’s a more spread out 1.5 million. The average age of the Jewish population is higher than the average age of the American population as a whole.

For the time being I only date Jewish women, but I don’t know what I’m going to do in a couple of years.

A major factor that many people refuse to look at is the increase of secular judaism. That with the increased rate of secular judaism, for most jews, marrying a nonreligious jew isnt much different than marrying a nonreligious christian (or buddist or muslim etc). Sean McGregor, the cute associate in the next office, isnt much different than Michael Goldstein, the guy down the hall – both went to the same college, grad school, eat the same food, dont observe religion. Whats the difference. My wife’s closest friends married nonjewish guys – and their lives (and kids’ lives) would be no different if they each married jewish (but nonreligious) guys. There wouldnt be any judasim in the home regardless. Their kids wouldnt get a jewish education, wouldnt celebrate the jewish holidays, and would likely end up marrying nonjews regardless. In fact, if my wife didnt end up with me (someone for whom traditional judaism is important), she would likely have gone down the same path.

Frankly, and this is hard for me to say, I think at this point we should throw in the towel for those that arent at all religiously connected. Focus our resources on the ones who are connected. Make sure that those people – who are the ones that want it – can send their kids to hebrew day school and join synagogues (which in this economy, is hard for many to afford). I’m not saying to ignore the rest and not program for them, but I wouldnt waste my energies there.

And this is even harder fo rme to admit, but while traditional, I am not sabbath observant, nor totally kosher, and as a result, I know my grandkids will have the great potential of marrying out. My point is that in 100 years time there will only be one type (or overwhelming majority) of jew – religiously observant. For the survival of the religion, maybe thats not a bad thing.

Dear JDaters: just found this blog! was reading over the recent postings and i have a question: how do you feel about non-Jewish women who are very enamored of Jewish culture AND religion and are willing to convert? do you feel that this type of union qualifies as “intermarriage”? the fact is, while in my own home growing up, (half European, half American), i did receive a deep intellectual heritage, it was secular and growing up in american suburbia was a truly awful experience…no community, no contact with nature, no real sense of relating to anything meaningful: the “air-conditioned nightmare”…i find through my life i have gravitated toward, shall i say, men with more traditional backgrounds, but have always sensed i was somehow judged because i had been deprived of such a heritage myself…now i live in a rather remote community, and there IS NO dating pool !!! i have to admit that while i have been a devoutly religious person myself in the past, and still have faith, in the course of focusing on world events, my faith has, sad to say, become more abstract. i also admit to having gone like a beggar at times to various communties (including Religious Jewish) more culturally vibrant than the one i came from, seeking acceptance, and even identity, i guess. it never works…i wonder why that is? the message seems to be, after all is said and done: “you are not one of us” would you agree?
Signed,
culturally and spiritually self-made in america

Katherine,
There are numerous converts happily integrated into the Jewish community. However, Judaism, unlike certain christian denominations, does not actively seek to prosletyze and convert. You cannot simply wake up one day, sign a paper and say a blessing and convert. You must demonstrate a real commitment to living a Jewish life by studying with a rabbi, learning about the religion and practicing a jewish life (keeping kosher, the sabbath etc). I believe certain reform rabbis do not impose those requirements, but many jews do not accept reform conversions for just that reason (Indeed, I believe that the State of Israel will only recognize orthodox converts as Jews, and will not recognize a reform or even conservative convert as a Jew – though this is a major issue of debate these days).

As to your bigger question – how will you be accepted. Certainly there are some more insular communities that may not welcome an “interested” (ie looking to convert) nonjew with open arms, but there are many that do. In fact there are organizations and rabbis that have a reputation for working with converts. Generally these are more “open-minded”, liberal and accepting communities (whether they be orthodox or conservative). Im sure there are many resources out there on the web.

Yes, there are folks out there who can tell you how and where to start the process of conversion, if this is something you seek. Every community is not as welcoming as some, but they all bemoan the plight of the ever declining numbers of faithful. There’s very few ways of addressing the problem, and conversion really should be more welcomed in more venues & communities. Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’

Dear VJ and runforyourlife, thanks for your replies! i spend too much time online and there is so much hostility and intolerance expressed there, especially in the political arena…your comments are such a refreshing display of reasonableness, kindness and generosity! the problem of orthodoxy in the modern world seems to come down, after all, to emotional adjustment. it may be an illusion, but in the “old world” it seems people could authentically embrace an inherited tradition if they wanted to…or they could rebel, if they chose, often at great cost, and derive an identity from that…but how does one go from a “non-tradition” back to orthodoxy? my Hungarian father used to talk about how innovation, (as in the arts) was only meaningful if it continued to refer to something that went before; in our modern world that abolishes standards, meaning is lost. my ideal i guess is a humane orthodoxy, and i believe it has been attained by very holy people. but for individuals who lack personal security, identity, integration, self-esteem; people who struggle for balance and emotional health, any attempt at tradition feels artificial; there is the deep sense of being judged as unworthy…at first i would have been tempted to dismiss this as only an american problem, but i think human beings are suffering from modernism everywhere. i have struggled with this all my life, but i guess i must say in the end that i would rather acknowledge my unworthiness before a real and true orthodoxy than base self-acceptance upon amorality, a “watered down version” or rejection of faith. thank you for responding! Peace to all.

Katharine, I’m glad other people have responded to you, and I have to say that I mostly agree with them. Certain communities (not always falling into neat denominational categories, either) are more open to “outsiders,” or rather, to the strangers who are just friends that they haven’t yet met, so to speak. If someone feels a deep kinship with Judaism, I have no issue with them pursuing those feelings through study and engagement with the very rich tradition. If such a person, who converted with a true desire not just to marry a Jewish spouse but to be Jewish, were to knock at my door, I’d certainly welcome them. And their union would not be an intermarriage. But I’m not the “community-at-large,” if there even is such a thing.

And I think the kind of judgment you talk about is certainly there, and I don’t pretend to be immune from the human temptation to judge people based on few pieces of information…but I do try to err on the side of acceptance, and understanding that my choices aren’t everyone’s choices, when it comes to marriage or anything else. But that’s just me.

Apologies in advance but this might set the record for longest blog comment ever…

I just found your column about the PLP conference now. As someone who was in that room (hey, you could have credited me for the Orwellian remark!), and who has met you a few times, and has read some of your writing…perhaps I can explain the discomfort I felt with the piece you read that day.

One possible explanation is that it simply comes down to the general disconnect between ritually-observant and non-observant Jews.

When looking for a spouse, I would say that “shared values” was fourth on my list after (1) physical attraction (let’s be honest, I’m a guy); (2) a shared sense of humor; and (3) an emotional/intellectual connection. But there is huge overlap between “Jewish values” and the values also held by a tremendous number of non-Jewish people in the world. Acts of lovingkindness, giving to charity, and fighting for social justice are just a few examples of the values I share with my non-Jewish wife.

So when Jews tell me they’re looking to find another Jew because of “shared values,” I believe what they’re really talking about is either (a) a shared ethnic experience, or (b) shared ritual practice.

Like most (yes, most) Jews in America, Jewish ritual practice is very far down on my list of mating criteria. For me, it’s somewhere between “has nice ankles” and “knows the difference between Green Arrow and Green Lantern.”

However, if you are a ritually observant Jew, then it will be much more understandable to your audience if you are upfront about that: “I observe Jewish ritual like keeping the Sabbath and would find it difficult to live with someone who didn’t.” Your column talks about restricting your dating pool to “Jews who are interested in living a traditionally Jewish life,” but are you really using the word “traditional” synonymously with ritual observance? It’s unclear, and that’s not the definition I felt I heard from the chapter you read at PLP.

Instead, I heard more of the “shared ethnic experience,” which is a mindset I don’t fully understand. I heard more of the bagels-and-lox-on-Sunday-morning-while-reading-the-NYTimes ethnic Judaism…which, quite frankly, you don’t need to be Jewish to do…than the walking-to-the-shtiebl-together-before-taking-our-respective-sides-of-the-mechitza Judaism.

When you start describing Judaism in a vaguely Jewishy “feeling” (like art or pornography: “I can’t describe it but I know it when I see it”), it blurs boundaries. You then become the arbiter of who is “Jewish enough”: Is a patrilineal Jew who was raised totally Jewish in Manhattan “Jewish enough” for you? What about a Jew with two Jewish parents who was raised in Wisconsin where they were the only Jewish family in their small town, had a Christmas tree growing up, and know nothing about their heritage? Would you have anything in common with that guy? Yet he’s halachically Jewish while the first guy isn’t. What about those guys who have two non-Jewish parents but who grew up around Jews, rushed ZBT, and feel more “Jewishy” than that guy from Wisconsin! They’re automatically disqualified from contention, yet they may be even more likely to want to do Jewish ritual with you than the Wisconsin guy and may eventually even choose to become Jewish, but you wouldn’t give them that chance. None of these nuances are drawn out in black-and-white statements like “I want to marry a Jew.”

In a room full of people at PLP—many of whom have had their Judaism questioned at one time or another (and yet still care enough to be in a room full of Jewish people discussing this)—it can start to feel uncomfortable. Your seeming selection of just one criterion – “Jewish” – as your line in the sand feels quite arbitrary because it’s loaded with lots of additional unspoken meaning. You obviously define that “Jewish” you’re looking for as more than just “his mom is Jewish.”

Maybe what you really mean to say is not just that you’re looking for a Jewish guy, but that you’re looking for a “New York-type Jewish guy who’s had a similar Jewish upbringing as me and feels the same way I do about things.” Or whatever your more nuanced criteria are. If you’re honest about it, would you marry an Ethiopian Israeli Jew just because he’s Jewish? Would there be enough in common? You present it both as “it’s a Jewish thing” and also as “it’s just the type of guy that I think will work for me” thing, but that blurs the line, which has consequences for your readers/listeners.

(You might answer my question about the Ethiopian Israeli Jew with, “I’d date him to see if we have anything in common.” But that presumes that all your encounters start with the pre-knowledge of someone’s religion, which is impractical in many real-world situations; though I know J-Date is trying to change all that.)

MORE IMPORTANTLY…

A number of possible attitudes that you hold about intermarriage that may have led to the perceived discomfort or offense that day at PLP seem to be reiterated in your Jewish Week column that this blog post refers to [and by the way, there’s something funky about the current link because when you follow it to the JWeek site, it has the correct headline but the wrong body text, so I had to use Google cache to read the column].

For example, you write, “Maybe it was that I said I found it slightly sad when a Jewish man ‘marries out’ — not for demographic reasons, like those of Jews who believe intermarriage dooms the Jewish people to extinction, but for utterly selfish ones. It means that there’s one less Jewish man in my dating pool.”

I’m sorry but that still offends me. First of all, even though you put quotes around it, I did not “marry out.” I’m still here. My wife “married in.” Second, I didn’t marry some who’s not Jewish to strike a dagger through your heart. And besides, your argument is flawed: a Jewish man who marries a Jewish woman is equally removed from your dating pool, and yet you don’t claim to feel “slightly sad” about their in-marriage, do you? So obviously it is at least a little about the demographic thing, isn’t it?

The fact that you find my marriage “slightly sad” is too bad for you because I feel great about it and so does my family. (I know you’re writing in general here, and not about me personally, but the bottom line is that you’re talking about me whether you want to or not, and I have a reaction. Like if someone was writing in general about Jewish dating columnists.) I’d feel happy for your marriage, whomever you marry.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, even though you claim it’s not about this, you still seem to be operating on the assumption that intermarried couples don’t create Jewish households, when there are literally hundreds of thousands of us who do. For example, you write, “I want to marry a Jew…because having a Jewish life is important to me.” Having a Jewish life is important to countless intermarried Jews as well – myself included, and others in that room at PLP – and who you marry is neither cause nor effect of doing so. You’ve set up a clear corollary that you must in-married in order to have a Jewish life, implying that those who intermarry no longer have a Jewish life. It’s just not true. And I think that was the major cause of the reaction you felt in the room that day.

Finally, as someone else who’s every paycheck is from an organization with the word “Jewish” in its name, I’m really dismayed to read this line: “But in concentrating energies on re-engaging the intermarried, we also should keep in mind those who haven’t taken that road and are still hoping to find someone of the faith.”

What are you suggesting here, that there’s not enough emphasis on assisting Jews to marry other Jews? The reality is that almost every major initiative in the Jewish community since 1990 – including birthright israel, Makor, the push for day schools, camping, BBYO, Leading Up North, JDate, the UJC forum you just spoke at, whatever – is fully or in-part about finding ways to hook up young Jews with other young Jews. BILLIONS of dollars have been poured into it. Efforts to engaging the intermarried represent less than a quarter of one percent of all the monies spent on Jewish programming by the US Jewish community, even though there are currently more intermarried than in-married households!

Are you really concerned that concentrating (really, beginning) to focus energies on the intermarried will mean less programming for you? From what you yourself describe, you live in a nearly-enclosed Jewish system. As you go from one event to the next, many underwritten by donors and Jewish federations, ask yourself, “is this about re-engaging the intermarried, or is it about ‘those who haven’t taken that road and are still hoping to find someone of the faith’?” I think you’ll be hard-pressed to find the former whereas almost everything is geared toward the latter. The next question to ask yourself is, “how comfortable and welcomed would those intermarried people or children of intermarriage in the room at PLP feel at this event”?

I’m glad that the PLP session served to challenge you and get you out of that closed system momentarily, and I appreciate that you wrote “intermarriage happens; we need to figure out how to deal with it, artfully and more artistically than I was apparently able to.” If you’re genuinely committed to doing so I’m happy to continue the conversation.

1/Its interesting in that in the ‘longest blog comment ever’ there was no suggestion about how she would go a find a Jewish guy which is what she says she wants (maybe not what you want but what she says she wants)

2/ Here in Toronto the only funding the UJA gives is for a Jewish singles hotline-just weekly announcements on a phone recording. Some billions.

this was a very compelling article and your writing style is excellent. you are quickly becoming one of my favorite up-and-coming journalists.

i commend you for your bravery as far as announcing your dating and marriage preferences to a room of people who may or may not share a similar opinion as you. but to be honest, i do feel that limiting ourselves to 2% of the population is incredibly challenging. i’m obviously not suggesting that you date or marry a non-Jew. i respect your decision, and would hope that you would respect the choices of those young Jews who have not chosen Jewish partners. one thing you need to keep in mind is that they’re not choosing non-Jewish mates on purpose. that’s something a lot of people who are concerned about intermarriage fail to realize. we live in a very open society, and before long all those people who say they’ll only date and marry Jewish are getting tired of not finding a suitable Jewish mate, so they expand their search to outside of their collective group. but remember, it’s not on purpose. it’s because they want to find someone to love. and sometimes, it may take venturing outside of the comfort zone to do so. should we all date and marry non-Jews? no. but we should give everyone a chance, because you never know…you could meet someone who may not be Jewish but grew up with tons of Jewish friends and knows more about Judaism than they do, and may decide to become Jewish someday.

if i were to marry a non-Jew, it would have to be someone who had no religious upbringing or stopped practicing their birth religion. would i want them to convert? it would be preferable, but i’m not going to force it upon them. i would be satisfied if they were willing to raise any kids i have as Jews (it pays to be female). i wouldn’t marry a devout Christian for the same reason i wouldn’t marry an Orthodox Jew- our beliefs would clash. i may not be perfect, but i’m still a Jew regardless of who i date or marry. i would not date or marry someone just because they’re Jewish. i’ve dated Jewish guys who had nothing in common with me, and it was incredibly awkward. they only dated me because they wanted to shut their parents up. and i’m sorry, but that’s not a reason to date someone. if i see no compatibility besides the obvious, then it doesn’t work for me. i want someone who has similar interests and tastes to me as well. but we’re all entitled to our opinions.

i appreciate your honesty on this very difficult topic. just keep in mind that not everyone will agree with you. but if you respect those with different opinions, chances are they will respect you as well. i wish you good luck in your search for someone who will make you happy.

A MESSAGE FROM THE MANAGEMENT

As you may have noticed, JDaters Anonymous is no longer being updated regularly. For more about this decision, see the "Hiatus Explained" post:

Blog author Esther D. Kustanowitz continues to write about pop culture, Jewish life, media and other topics (including single life) for print and online publications. You can catch more of her professional work at EstherK.com, blogging at My Urban Kvetch and stay informed of new articles as they're published, by following her on Twitter (@EstherK).

Thanks for your support. And may your dating experiences be so normal (or even good) that they're not worth complaining about on the internet. :)