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Topic: Update on trevor72694 (Read 19077 times)

Unfortunately, I'm witnessing the rapid massacre of everything beautiful in the Orthodox Church in the name of misguided evangelistic zeal and ethnic-phobia. Perfectly spititual people are being alienated from the Church by this.

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I wanted to respond to this comment as I fully understand and appreciate the depth of feelings within one which can produce such a sad reflection. Indeed - a casual perusal of the internets might very lead you to such a conclusion - but where the soul of the Church resides - at the parish level within most of our myriad of jurisdictions, I really don't see things that way.

Sure - if you read and take to heart the frenzied postings on Monomakos (and elsewhere) , and the ethnic self-loathing of the prime blogger there - you could feel alienated. Such blogs and forums portray a view of the Church and a mindset which is distant from that which many of were immersed in over the years. Some might even argue that they portray a Church which is more rigid, more fundamentalist in its approach, more judgmental, less forgiving and full of less joy than many of us are familiar with. At times, they often reek of a triumphalist - almost pharisaic point of view. However, giving the benefit of the doubt to most who post on such sites, I suspect that an overabundance of zeal and joy in having found the fullness of Christianity in Orthodoxy has led them to such extremes. Sure - some of the postings here and on other more moderate sites go off the edge from time to time - but on the whole, parish to parish, faithful to faithful - I truly believe things are not that bad. Could they be better? Surely - but the definition of 'better' is the tricky part.

Unfortunately, I'm witnessing the rapid massacre of everything beautiful in the Orthodox Church in the name of misguided evangelistic zeal and ethnic-phobia. Perfectly spititual people are being alienated from the Church by this.

I wanted to respond to this comment as I fully understand and appreciate the depth of feelings within one which can produce such a sad reflection. Indeed - a casual perusal of the internets might very lead you to such a conclusion - but where the soul of the Church resides - at the parish level within most of our myriad of jurisdictions, I really don't see things that way.

Sure - if you read and take to heart the frenzied postings on Monomakos (and elsewhere) , and the ethnic self-loathing of the prime blogger there - you could feel alienated. Such blogs and forums portray a view of the Church and a mindset which is distant from that which many of were immersed in over the years. Some might even argue that they portray a Church which is more rigid, more fundamentalist in its approach, more judgmental, less forgiving and full of less joy than many of us are familiar with. At times, they often reek of a triumphalist - almost pharisaic point of view. However, giving the benefit of the doubt to most who post on such sites, I suspect that an overabundance of zeal and joy in having found the fullness of Christianity in Orthodoxy has led them to such extremes. Sure - some of the postings here and on other more moderate sites go off the edge from time to time - but on the whole, parish to parish, faithful to faithful - I truly believe things are not that bad. Could they be better? Surely - but the definition of 'better' is the tricky part.

Well, unfortunately, I'm watching it happen in several parishes I know in real life, including my own. I know the vast majority of people don't agree with it, and I also agree that the situation we're in is very complex, not at all one-sided. Creativity and compromises between Church members are the solution to our problems. The biggest enemies of the Orthodox Church in North America are the talent drain and internal divisions. The latter problem, in my experience, is being exascerbated by the many of the people who are trying the hardest to solve the problem, because their approach is forced hegemony with American culture in ways that get people justifiably upset.

EDIT: I also agree that things are really not as bad as we like to think, parish to parish, parishioner to parishioner. At the same time, there are some things we must fix.

Nearly every problem that we have is ego-driven. It may be dressed up nice as either liberal or centrist or conservative; or "american," "other-ethnic." But my observation as a priest, as a dean, and in other capacities on the diocesan level and jurisdiction cooperative level, is that most of the parish problems are ego driven, and most of the problems on jurisdictional level are ideologically driven but still may have ego-cult dimensions. No one is going to solve this on the internet. Until you are face to face staring someone in the eyes with personal accountability, solutions are far from reach locked in the closet of the real world down the hall from anonymous cyber-world.

Deny this young person eternal salvation, because he "might" drop out?

...in that case why baptize young babies? They might grow up and decide to leave the Church.

I think it's great, that with proper preparation/catechumenate, that people of whatever age, who think they are ready, and the priest agrees, get accepted in to the Church...with the hopes that they will remain in the Church and a part of the body of Christ.

A long catechumenate.

I completely agree. Especially for catechumens in their teens and twenties (and possibly their thirties).

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Anyway, I wish you the best Trevor even though this is not the news I wanted to hear. I pray that you return to the Lord. You do seem like a sincere and honest person.

Thank you very much. I wish I could believe like I used to, but I just can't muster up the faith I used to have. Who knows? Maybe St. Tikhon (my patron saint) will appear in my dreams and punch me in the nose, and then set me on the straight and narrow!

you should read the case for God by Karen Armstrong. It was a great help to me when I lost my faith.

Deny this young person eternal salvation, because he "might" drop out?

...in that case why baptize young babies? They might grow up and decide to leave the Church.

I think it's great, that with proper preparation/catechumenate, that people of whatever age, who think they are ready, and the priest agrees, get accepted in to the Church...with the hopes that they will remain in the Church and a part of the body of Christ.

A long catechumenate.

I completely agree. Especially for catechumens in their teens and twenties (and possibly their thirties).

Maybe. I think Liza is right. I take this person by person. Usually people married to a "cradle" (or marrying a cradle) are more solid with a shorter catechumenate than those just entering "on their own." But clearly the reason that they are converting, to the trained priest, is crucial in determining length of catechumenate. If there are any signs of wavering, it is immediately a long catechumenate that they are given from my part. I find that heathens need less of a cat. period than those who come from Christian confessions that they are "running from." They don't have the baggage.

This just proves that modern "therapy", quizzes, tests, etc....are all designed to make you doubt your faith....and fit "in" with modern social norms.

This is just patently false.

Not really.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

This just proves that modern "therapy", quizzes, tests, etc....are all designed to make you doubt your faith....and fit "in" with modern social norms.

This is just patently false.

Indeed. My wife's therapist often told her to go back to church more often.

And he was a Jewish atheist.

A rarity (one seeing value in church-going, that is. There are a few, but they are outnumbered).

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Hmm. I guess you have a point. I didn't know any of that about you. But what you describe also doesn't sound anything like the Orthodoxy I'm learning to live by. I guess everyone is different in that way, but I'm still trying to understand how you go from "I was bad at balancing my commitment to my religion" (or "I was anxious", or whatever you feel the problem was) to "God doesn't exist". I mean, I'm bad at staying away from sweets, but sweets still exist (I just try to avoid being alone with them ). I don't know you at all, so please forgive me if this is out of line, but it seems like you could benefit from looking to transform your experience and understanding of your religion, rather than giving up religion.

Granted, when I did that I became Orthodox...

This isn't out of line at all, my friend.

That is why I left Church in the first place, but my belief in God was still strong. It was learning that I am just fine without God in my life that pushed me to question his existence, and then realizing the answer to that question.

I mean, I can't say for 100% certainty that God doesn't exist (and I truly believe that not even the most religious of the religious can say that they know 100% that God exists). You know, because you have faith in him. You learn about him and attend Church and commune with him while building a strong relationship with him.

I've realized that "faith" is all in your head. It's real if you believe that it's real. I just don't believe that it's real, so for me, it's not real.

I hope that makes sense. I'm currently half asleep and still on the computer (that's what OC.net will do to you), so I'm going to bed.

I remember experiencing a strong sense of doubt at your age as well. I stopped "feeling" the presence of God, and that was awful for me. However, I knew that something that had so radically changed my life could not be "something in my head." So I stuck with it. As I got older the doubts started to lessen, and now, thanks be to God, I don't struggle with them much. Perhaps my study of philosophy has strengthened my faith (I've come to believe that atheism really is incoherent), or maybe God's loving presence has just helped me grow in faith (definitely the latter more than the former). Whatever the case, I will be praying for you.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

It appears as though I can not see your profile on the facebook site anymore. I hope you are doing well.

Yes, I had noticed the same thing.

He has actually specifically "blocked" us. I had a friend look for him and they found him alive and well and posting.

Makes me kind of sad.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Ah well. I figured he blocked me for whatever reason. In any case there is no ill will or intentions on my part. He won't be able to find me again if he doesn't have any friends in common. I have a super secret stealth account that is unsearchable to people that don't already know someone I know.

This just proves that modern "therapy", quizzes, tests, etc....are all designed to make you doubt your faith....and fit "in" with modern social norms.

This is just patently false.

Indeed. My wife's therapist often told her to go back to church more often.

And he was a Jewish atheist.

A rarity (one seeing value in church-going, that is. There are a few, but they are outnumbered).

I have seen a master's level therapist, two psychiatrists, two psychiatric nurse practitioners, two licensed clinical social workers involved in group therapy, and something like five behavioral health techs at a psych hospital, in the last year. Of those twelve mental health professionals, a grand total of zero ever expressed any idea that religion - of any sort - was a bad thing; and I can recall nine of them bringing it up, all in a positive way with regard to those who had an interest in their faith. You are quite frankly just spewing more random feces as you so often do, with no basis in facts of any kind. I strongly encourage you to set aside your prejudices for a few minutes every day and actually think about whether or not you have any reason at all to believe the insane things that you do.

It appears as though I can not see your profile on the facebook site anymore. I hope you are doing well.

Yes, I had noticed the same thing.

He has actually specifically "blocked" us. I had a friend look for him and they found him alive and well and posting.

Makes me kind of sad.

And hey, it is his loss. You are full of awesome!

His loss is quadrupled for having blocked YOU!

The truly sad part was, that he and I had been texting just the night before....and he seemed to have perked up and been hopeful, and the next day I got blocked....and when I asked him via PM on this site about it, he lied and told me he's having trouble with Facebook deleting his friends.

There's no need to lie. We are adults. If you block us, it's your right...but, don't lie about it....we're not fools.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 10:29:44 AM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

^ Now THAT was uncalled for. And I'm not sure it is germane to the thread or even a proper reaction to the intent of Isa's post.

People like Isa cause others to stop seeing, or fail to start seeing, mental health professionals when they definitely need to. What exactly is the point of Isa's post other than to cast aspersions on the field of mental health?

^ Now THAT was uncalled for. And I'm not sure it is germane to the thread or even a proper reaction to the intent of Isa's post.

People like Isa cause others to stop seeing, or fail to start seeing, mental health professionals when they definitely need to. What exactly is the point of Isa's post other than to cast aspersions on the field of mental health?

To be fair, the methods of clinical psychology and psychiatry do present some important questions for Orthodox Christians.

Isa is just wrong about most clinicians not seeing (at least) therapeutic value in religion.

a good priest will send you to your psychiatrist if you have psychiatric problems.

Correct. Priests are not psychiatrists, and even the few that are should not be practicing psychotherapy on their spiritual children, for the same reason why a psychiatrist would not do psychotherapy on their children. Some people have a physical illness of chemical imbalance in the brain, while others have psychological illnesses. A Psychiatrist handles the former. Their Priest can give Unction and prayers, but should not be practicing psychotherapy nor giving them drugs, even if he is a psychiatrist.

a good priest will send you to your psychiatrist if you have psychiatric problems.

Correct. Priests are not psychiatrists, and even the few that are should not be practicing psychotherapy on their spiritual children, for the same reason why a psychiatrist would not do psychotherapy on their children. Some people have a physical illness of chemical imbalance in the brain, while others have psychological illnesses. A Psychiatrist handles the former. Their Priest can give Unction and prayers, but should not be practicing psychotherapy nor giving them drugs, even if he is a psychiatrist.

Amen. If we can put, "if a priest practices psychotherapy on his parishioners, let him be deposed" we could make this a canon for an upcoming local American council.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

a good priest will send you to your psychiatrist if you have psychiatric problems.

Correct. Priests are not psychiatrists, and even the few that are should not be practicing psychotherapy on their spiritual children, for the same reason why a psychiatrist would not do psychotherapy on their children. Some people have a physical illness of chemical imbalance in the brain, while others have psychological illnesses. A Psychiatrist handles the former. Their Priest can give Unction and prayers, but should not be practicing psychotherapy nor giving them drugs, even if he is a psychiatrist.

Amen. If we can put, "if a priest practices psychotherapy on his parishioners, let him be deposed" we could make this a canon for an upcoming local American council.

And 200 years from now when the word is no longer in our vocabulary someone will look at said canon and ask "what is psychotherapy"? Then some other genius will say, "I think is when priest gives communion to person with mental problems." Then the parish council can say "good, we finally have reason to get rid of that no good priest"

a good priest will send you to your psychiatrist if you have psychiatric problems.

Correct. Priests are not psychiatrists, and even the few that are should not be practicing psychotherapy on their spiritual children, for the same reason why a psychiatrist would not do psychotherapy on their children. Some people have a physical illness of chemical imbalance in the brain, while others have psychological illnesses. A Psychiatrist handles the former. Their Priest can give Unction and prayers, but should not be practicing psychotherapy nor giving them drugs, even if he is a psychiatrist.

Amen. If we can put, "if a priest practices psychotherapy on his parishioners, let him be deposed" we could make this a canon for an upcoming local American council.

And 200 years from now when the word is no longer in our vocabulary someone will look at said canon and ask "what is psychotherapy"? Then some other genius will say, "I think is when priest gives communion to person with mental problems." Then the parish council can say "good, we finally have reason to get rid of that no good priest"

That's only if parishes 200 years from now become dominated by wacky congregationalists that think they can dismiss priests at their leisure...oh, wait.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Therefore, the responsibility lies with the seminaries to ensure that the priests are prepared to handle these situations and are willing to dedicate the time to their flocks.

Personally, I am always surprised to read that people have gone to their priest and told them they just "aren't happy" and will start skipping Liturgy....and the response is "OK".

That just baffles me. It's not okay. Perhaps the person needs additional attention and care. I can't believe the sheep is leaving the flock and it's okay. This has occurred more than once, as multiple posters have posted pretty much the same response given them from their clergy when told they were leaving.

Even if they can't convince the person to stay....don't sugar coat it and say it's "OK". Don't make them feel it is all good to leave the Church and become less than what they have been called to be. Don't be mean, but, perhaps a follow up or a show of concern would be of benefit.

Funny how people judge atheists, when they can't scienctifically prove God's existence. Wake up people. I believe in God. But I can;t offer any proof of his existence. Therefore judging and condemning atheists, doesn't sound sane.

This just proves that modern "therapy", quizzes, tests, etc....are all designed to make you doubt your faith....and fit "in" with modern social norms.

This is just patently false.

Indeed. My wife's therapist often told her to go back to church more often.

And he was a Jewish atheist.

A rarity (one seeing value in church-going, that is. There are a few, but they are outnumbered).

I have seen a master's level therapist, two psychiatrists, two psychiatric nurse practitioners, two licensed clinical social workers involved in group therapy, and something like five behavioral health techs at a psych hospital, in the last year. Of those twelve mental health professionals, a grand total of zero ever expressed any idea that religion - of any sort - was a bad thing; and I can recall nine of them bringing it up, all in a positive way with regard to those who had an interest in their faith. You are quite frankly just spewing more random feces as you so often do, with no basis in facts of any kind. I strongly encourage you to set aside your prejudices for a few minutes every day and actually think about whether or not you have any reason at all to believe the insane things that you do.

Didn't see this before: I worked in the locked unit of a free standing psych hospital for 5 years, and have known a lot of psych professionals and teachers, before and since. I have literally read thousands of case files. And yes, those who see value in religion, especially beyond just a crutch, are outnumbered.

As for the alleged prejudices-which seem to amount to nothing more than I do not agree with you-I have no problem with anyone availing themselves of psych services, nor using the findings of psychology.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Therefore, the responsibility lies with the seminaries to ensure that the priests are prepared to handle these situations and are willing to dedicate the time to their flocks.

Personally, I am always surprised to read that people have gone to their priest and told them they just "aren't happy" and will start skipping Liturgy....and the response is "OK".

That just baffles me. It's not okay. Perhaps the person needs additional attention and care. I can't believe the sheep is leaving the flock and it's okay. This has occurred more than once, as multiple posters have posted pretty much the same response given them from their clergy when told they were leaving.

Even if they can't convince the person to stay....don't sugar coat it and say it's "OK". Don't make them feel it is all good to leave the Church and become less than what they have been called to be. Don't be mean, but, perhaps a follow up or a show of concern would be of benefit.

Funny how people judge atheists, when they can't scienctifically prove God's existence. Wake up people. I believe in God. But I can;t offer any proof of his existence. Therefore judging and condemning atheists, doesn't sound sane.

Tweety, from your earlier comments, I gather you are a "cradle" Orthodox, baptized at age 2 you said. I am glad to hear you "believe" in God, and I hope you take a real interest in getting to know Orthodoxy. It's the True Church of Christ, and sometimes, we as faithful, simply are asked to believe, without proof.

It is an exercise in humility to admit we don't know how or why things are the way they are, but, we believe them to be true, nonetheless.

I wonder if your parents took you to church as a child, if you were exposed to the Traditions, as well as the traditions (small t).

I think you will find that Orthodoxy is a fascinating and wondrous experience....and stands unrivaled in it's respect for God, and adherence to His laws.

I hope and pray that you take a real interest and begin to examine what Orthodoxy really is....not just the surface, but, the roots.

This forum is a great place to start...however, not everything written here is correct. I know for certain, that many things I once wrote, I now wish I hadn't because I've matured and realized that I was wrong. I am still learning.

I wish you all the best and that your journey to discovering your Faith is a joyous and filled with wonderful experiences.

Let us know if we can be of any help.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

This just proves that modern "therapy", quizzes, tests, etc....are all designed to make you doubt your faith....and fit "in" with modern social norms.

This is just patently false.

Indeed. My wife's therapist often told her to go back to church more often.

And he was a Jewish atheist.

A rarity (one seeing value in church-going, that is. There are a few, but they are outnumbered).

I have seen a master's level therapist, two psychiatrists, two psychiatric nurse practitioners, two licensed clinical social workers involved in group therapy, and something like five behavioral health techs at a psych hospital, in the last year. Of those twelve mental health professionals, a grand total of zero ever expressed any idea that religion - of any sort - was a bad thing; and I can recall nine of them bringing it up, all in a positive way with regard to those who had an interest in their faith. You are quite frankly just spewing more random feces as you so often do, with no basis in facts of any kind. I strongly encourage you to set aside your prejudices for a few minutes every day and actually think about whether or not you have any reason at all to believe the insane things that you do.

Didn't see this before: I worked in the locked unit of a free standing psych hospital for 5 years, and have known a lot of psych professionals and teachers, before and since. I have literally read thousands of case files. And yes, those who see value in religion, especially beyond just a crutch, are outnumbered.

As for the alleged prejudices-which seem to amount to nothing more than I do not agree with you-I have no problem with anyone availing themselves of psych services, nor using the findings of psychology.

A therapist I saw for a few months earlier this year had her Masters degree from Liberty University.

That would be...interesting.

It wasn't at a "Christian Counseling" type place either, just a regular therapist/doctor set up. When she told me about the degree at the first session that's exactly what I thought... oh boy, this is gonna get good. As it turned out she was quite insightful and intelligent.

My current therapist is an atheist, but even she has made positive comments about religion. For example, I was telling her about how the Orthodox remember the dead at certain intervals after their passing, and she really liked that way of helping with the grief process.

A therapist I saw for a few months earlier this year had her Masters degree from Liberty University.

That would be...interesting.

It wasn't at a "Christian Counseling" type place either, just a regular therapist/doctor set up. When she told me about the degree at the first session that's exactly what I thought... oh boy, this is gonna get good. As it turned out she was quite insightful and intelligent.

My current therapist is an atheist, but even she has made positive comments about religion. For example, I was telling her about how the Orthodox remember the dead at certain intervals after their passing, and she really liked that way of helping with the grief process.

Interestingly, my Judaism instructor told us a couple of weeks ago about a now-deceased member of the ASU faculty; Rabbi Lee (my instructor) and he were friends, and the man (IIRC) was an atheist Jew more or less. Anyway, when the man's father died at a relatively young age, Rabbi Lee and the faculty member had a discussion (I believe that day) about the traditional Jewish mourning rites, and the man chose to sit shiva (the seven day mourning ritual-thing for first degree relatives, in Judaism) and afterward extolled its virtues vis-a-vis the grief process.