(24-09-2013 03:56 PM)Chas Wrote: And why would being born after one's parents converted to Judaism be different than being born before they converted? (This is reference to the Chinese converts.)
Rather arbitrary, wouldn't you agree?

Maybe so. I don't particular care either way.

I think I've given enough time to this topic. You've got the information. If you choose to decide it's stupid, so be it. I'm a Jew. I'm an atheist. I'm quite happy with it. I know others who feel the same way.

That was really the point. In what sense are you a Jew?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

(24-09-2013 04:36 PM)Dark Light Wrote: Culturally of course. She has said no to that though. She is a Jew because her mother was a Jew, regardless of culture. Again, according to her. Go back a re-read the thread.

I did. Her definitions are inconsistent and even contradictory.

Quote:Are you asking why atheist Jews still consider themselves Jews? The answer to that is simple - because we are Jews.

Jews are a particular tribe of people who formed a few thousand years ago, possibly from a group of Canaanites.

Before modern times, "Jewish" was not considered your religion. The religion in the early days doesn't even look like it does today.

I mean exactly what I said. Judaism is a religion of action, not a religion of belief like Christianity. If you take a look at the 613 mitzvot (Jewish laws) only about five or so of them are dependent on belief. The rest are behavior oriented. One could actually live a very Jewish life without believing in god at all.

If your wife converted before the child was born, then yes, that child is Jewish.

And this is why you do not understand, because you see "JEW" as a religion when that is not how we see or define ourselves.

I actually knew a guy who converted, twice, and then changed his mind. He sent his paperwork back to the Rabbis who had assisted him with his conversion and told them he no longer considered himself a Jew. No dice. They told him he was now and would forever be Jew whether he liked it or not. Didn't matter if he was religious, atheist, buddhist or crazy as a march hare. It's the same for those who were born Jews.

There is a point where simple ancestry does not make one Jewish.

I understood the topic to be about atheist Jews. Just because one doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean they have no connection to the Jewish people. Lacking belief in a god doesn't, at least today, rip you away from your connection to the Jewish world.

I'm giving you the definitions at set by the Jewish community. In the end, that is who defines who is a Jew.

I thought you started this thread to discuss those who consider themselves Jews and atheists. I explained how this could be possible. I haven't in my life met someone who was a Jew and didn't want the label. The closest I've seen is Sam Harris and he's never denied having a Jewish mother, he just doesn't care to identify that way. If someone really doesn't want to be considered a Jew, nobody is going to force them. Not in modern times. In the past it wouldn't have mattered but today one can generally control whether they are viewed as a Jew or not by society.

I don't know guys, I see this as fairly uncomplicated. One is a Jew either through birth or conversion and both groups share a history and culture. Some of those have also chosen to be observant of the religion. Some have chosen not to observe the religion. And some observe parts of the religion but are atheists (like me). That about sums it up.

Being born to Jewish parents or converting is the agreed upon criteria for being a Jew. Judaism is the religion formed by the Jewish people, one which many Jews choose to still participate. Jews have a shared history and culture and the religion of Judaism is a part of that culture.

Jews - a people group/tribe
Judaism - a religion often observed by that people group/tribe
Jewish - a descriptive word pertaining to either the people group, the religion or culture. Context of the discussion determines it's usage.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.