In my guild nothing has changed. I still win the prot paladin in my raid. Some fights he wins because of obvious reasons, for instance Galakras he tanks the waves. But on taunt on "x" stacks, I win in dps.

I'm getting 70k unbuffed on the target dummy in Stowmwind. I'm a little over 65% crit. My 2 best trinkets are currently Heroic Rentaki's and Normal RoR. I sometimes use 1 Stam trinket but it's 510 ilvl so I will probably stick with 2 DPS trinkets until I get Vial. I know I'm losing DPS in SoO keeping up Savage Defense and using Frenzied regen but the target dummy DPS seems quite low to me.

Really depends on the damage that we take, if we're talking during raids.

If you look at the damage taken by the tanks, the DPS output is roughly about the same proportion unless the jobs undertaken are different. Even slight differences that may seem insignificant may have a vast implication in our damage output. For example, after looking through my Iron Juggernaut logs, I took one extra stack of the tanking debuff than I normally would, and by the end of the fight I had pulled a decent lead in damage over my OT where normally we'd be about equal.

I still swear monks are double-dipping somewhere with their Stagger on Vengeance, although I don't have the motivation to prove it.

IIRC stagger doesn't give any vengeance per se, is the fact that, let's say, a monk before staggers take 1M damage because of poor passive damage reduction, while for example, a druid or a war because of, dunno way higher armor, takes 800k.

IIRC stagger doesn't give any vengeance per se, is the fact that, let's say, a monk before staggers take 1M damage because of poor passive damage reduction, while for example, a druid or a war because of, dunno way higher armor, takes 800k.

The Vengeance should be coming from unmitigated hits, so the numbers should be the same across the board. While it's better in 5.4, I still find that my monk co-tank has higher Vengeance doing the exact same job. While Stagger doesn't refresh Vengeance, it's the most likely candidate of the problem since it's an extra source of damage that other tanks don't have (even though technically the actual damage taken is roughly the same as any tank, the unmitigated damage is higher than other tanks if you include Stagger damage... my first guess would be that the Stagger value is used during a boss hit, not when Stagger damage happens). Even my monk co-tank thinks there's something fishy about it, we just abuse it for now.

Regardless, Guardian tanking DPS is still pretty close to Monks and other tanks, and actual raiding DPS output will depend more on what you're doing and how much damage you're taking instead of the class.

The Vengeance should be coming from unmitigated hits, so the numbers should be the same across the board. While it's better in 5.4, I still find that my monk co-tank has higher Vengeance doing the exact same job. While Stagger doesn't refresh Vengeance, it's the most likely candidate of the problem since it's an extra source of damage that other tanks don't have (even though technically the actual damage taken is roughly the same as any tank, the unmitigated damage is higher than other tanks if you include Stagger damage... my first guess would be that the Stagger value is used during a boss hit, not when Stagger damage happens). Even my monk co-tank thinks there's something fishy about it, we just abuse it for now.

Regardless, Guardian tanking DPS is still pretty close to Monks and other tanks, and actual raiding DPS output will depend more on what you're doing and how much damage you're taking instead of the class.

Stagger damage is friendly fire, and friendly fire never gives vengeance (and if you must know, yes I double-checked in game before typing this, stagger ticks don't affect vengeance at all). As far as the damage that is staggered, that counts as an absorb in the combat log. At best, it has no impact. At worst, the hit ends up higher than their current health. For example, if a monk had 600k HP, took a 300k hit with 400k staggered, they would only get vengeance as if it had hit for 600k (which, given their crappy armor, is less exciting than it sounds).

Stagger damage is friendly fire, and friendly fire never gives vengeance (and if you must know, yes I double-checked in game before typing this, stagger ticks don't affect vengeance at all). As far as the damage that is staggered, that counts as an absorb in the combat log. At best, it has no impact. At worst, the hit ends up higher than their current health. For example, if a monk had 600k HP, took a 300k hit with 400k staggered, they would only get vengeance as if it had hit for 600k (which, given their crappy armor, is less exciting than it sounds).

I mentioned it as a place to start, since things don't always work the same in the foreground as they do in the background when it comes to coding. While I know Stagger shouldn't do anything, it doesn't mean it doesn't have something to do with it... could be as simple as the calculation for Vengeance is done after the Stagger mechanic, and there's a coefficient wrong based upon a reverse calculation (certainly not optimal for sure, but stranger things have happened). I'm actually working on a WA to print out the unmitigated hit size based on damage reduction and Vengeance calculations for my monk, so it will basically tell me what the Vengeance calculation says the hit size is and what my damage reduction says the hit size is... if the numbers are noticeably different, there's a problem somewhere behind the scenes.

Well, getting back to Guardians, I had actually placed my druid and monk up against literally the same mob and let it wail away for about 30 minutes a piece while I logged the Vengeance gains... easy with a Guardian with Ysera's Gift, murder on my monk since I had to be there using Healing Spheres all the time (hence why I only did 30 minutes). The result was that my monk was obtaining higher average and max Vengeance over my druid by roughly 6-7%. I want to get my Weakaura up and running to get a better ideal of what's going on, since the above values were obtained by getting the value of Vengeance via the value stored with the associated buff, not by brute-force calculation of Vengeance. It's purely anecdotal until I can come up with a method for everyone to try it out and see.

I'm actually working on a WA to print out the unmitigated hit size based on damage reduction and Vengeance calculations for my monk, so it will basically tell me what the Vengeance calculation says the hit size is and what my damage reduction says the hit size is... if the numbers are noticeably different, there's a problem somewhere behind the scenes.

Just decided to do a test of that for myself on a monk. I'm getting (as close as I'm going to get with a quick setup) exactly what I'm expecting to get. I don't get exactly as much vengeance as expected, mostly because I'm assuming those goats in the veiled stair have a constant 2s swing timer, and the game just isn't that accurate. But it's staying very close to expected.

If you're still set on the assumption that you get less vengeance, you may want to look at bears too when you try it .

If you're interested in the Data:

Code:

Armor: 17496
Enemy Level: 88

Time

Damage

Staggered (absorbed)

Vengeance

0

2907

1284

611

2

2645

1168

655

4

3694

1632

776

6

2573

1137

803

8

2714

1199

837

10

3511

1551

891

12

3709

1638

957

14

3414

1508

1011

16

3353

1481

1044

18

2590

1144

1055

20

3046

1345

1077

22

2999

1324

1094

24

Miss

Miss

1094

26

3394

1499

1015

28

3032

1339

1035

30

3336

1474

1071

32

2550

1126

1073

34

2553

1128

1071

36

3070

1356

1092

38

2785

1230

1122

40

2906

1283

1108

42

2843

1256

1115

44

2838

1253

1122

Sorry for continuing the Off-topic, but there's been a whole 1 fight this expac where tank mechanics on their own made tanks generate significantly different vengeance (Ra-Den, Pallies got ~2x as much from fatal strike as anyone else because lol-stuff that ignores damage reduction). Any difference in tank DPS is almost certainly not due to getting different amounts of vengeance between tanks.

I've tanked SoO on a whole bunch of toons, and I've anecdotally experienced the same amount of vengeance on all of them across all encounters at the same point - whether on monk or paladin or druid etc. - with the one exception of paladins and bugged SoTR. I think monk damage is a bit high mostly because of RJW, but bears aren't too far behind. My main alt bear which is like ~10 ilvls behind my monk does roughly 80-85% damage on the same single target fights. It's just monk aoe is sort of ridiculous - bear is only 60-65% the aoe dps on the same encounters.

All the plate tanks seem to be floating around about 10-20% below the bears, in turn.

I'm curious if we are comparing Apples to Oranges here. Are you usually going for max DPS, max Mitigation or a combination? I have a DK and a Monk, my feeling is the the Bear loses more DPS when maximizing mitigation. It's been way too long since I played my Warrior to comment and I've never tanked on a Pally.

Bear DPS is fine cant say about monk havent raided with one this tier yet but when I look at my toon and the changed aoe talent that is very strong on aoe fights like kaia said. Dont know how viable haste build still is on a DK so, but warriors with the skullbanner really got a good push on survivability and dps which is fine. IMO I quess that haste would ahve been better looking at riposte for DKs not only in terms of dps but also looking at the defensiv stuff.

even though monks are the best aoe atm, I feel like warriors and dks are a bit lower on that part maybe too low

I only started playing again after 2yr. hiatus 2 months ago so i am only at ilvl517 but i am feeling bear dps is more than fine. singletarget tanking (symbiosis shaman for lightning shield) will usally come down to 80-90k dps, well ahead of any other tank, AoE tanking (symbiosis pally for consecration) can rank anything from 100-250k dps depending on vengeance, usually competing only with monks.