At this rate what with Blue Momentum, Momentum, UKIP joining forces with Tommy Robinson and now LibDem Momentum in embryo form, the Green Party will be the only UK party left that hasn't gone completely mad.

Is the thought process here, “ I’m rational, the people I generally speak to are rational, the population of Twickenham is generally middle class rational, everyone is rational”? Too much time in a narrow environment.

At this rate what with Blue Momentum, Momentum, UKIP joining forces with Tommy Robinson and now LibDem Momentum in embryo form, the Green Party will be the only UK party left that hasn't gone completely mad.

The Green Party has their fair share of antisemitism and oddballs. Plus they are only paying the male half of their new leadership team.

At this rate what with Blue Momentum, Momentum, UKIP joining forces with Tommy Robinson and now LibDem Momentum in embryo form, the Green Party will be the only UK party left that hasn't gone completely mad.

The Green Party has their fair share of antisemitism and oddballs. Plus they are only paying the male half of their new leadership team.

That is a pretty mad decision.

Main battle within the Green party at the moment is about transsexuality

Is the thought process here, “ I’m rational, the people I generally speak to are rational, the population of Twickenham is generally middle class rational, everyone is rational”? Too much time in a narrow environment.

Nope.

One of the Twickenham residents is allegedly in possession of ballistic missiles, or something similar, in his pocket.

At this rate what with Blue Momentum, Momentum, UKIP joining forces with Tommy Robinson and now LibDem Momentum in embryo form, the Green Party will be the only UK party left that hasn't gone completely mad.

The Green Party has their fair share of antisemitism and oddballs. Plus they are only paying the male half of their new leadership team.

That is a pretty mad decision.

Main battle within the Green party at the moment is about transsexuality

At this rate what with Blue Momentum, Momentum, UKIP joining forces with Tommy Robinson and now LibDem Momentum in embryo form, the Green Party will be the only UK party left that hasn't gone completely mad.

The Green Party has their fair share of antisemitism and oddballs. Plus they are only paying the male half of their new leadership team.

That is a pretty mad decision.

Main battle within the Green party at the moment is about transsexuality

At least their members get to choose the leader, paid or not.

Was hardly an inspiring selection.

Plus how can they justify not paying their co-leaders equally? How can they stand for equality when they pay the man but not the woman for doing the same job?

At this rate what with Blue Momentum, Momentum, UKIP joining forces with Tommy Robinson and now LibDem Momentum in embryo form, the Green Party will be the only UK party left that hasn't gone completely mad.

The Greens in Germany are edging towards becoming the most popular centre-left party. Perhaps it's a better candidate for a reverse takeover of Labour moderates than the Lib Dems.

At this rate what with Blue Momentum, Momentum, UKIP joining forces with Tommy Robinson and now LibDem Momentum in embryo form, the Green Party will be the only UK party left that hasn't gone completely mad.

The Green Party has their fair share of antisemitism and oddballs. Plus they are only paying the male half of their new leadership team.

That is a pretty mad decision.

Main battle within the Green party at the moment is about transsexuality

Have the Lib Dems not been watching over the summer, at a live example of what happens when a political party opens itself up to anyone without a commitment?

The problem with opening up is that it doesn't work. Ordinary busy, fairly non-political people don't join as supporters, just as they haven't joined as members. Certainly not in the numbers strategists theorise about.

Instead, madly committed, raving loons who have been in other fringe parties see a massive open goal opportunity and go for it.

Can Vince explain to us why he thinks LibDems will be different to Labour?

And can his party afford a decent level of checking of supporters to see whether they are members of other parties or have been in the past.

Several senior MPs have this summer mentioned a period of National Government being the only way out of the Brexit Malaise and the extremist take over of the Labour party. Nicholas Soames and Mike Gapes have even mentioned it on the floor of the H of C.

I think Cable might well be positioning the Lib Dems a survival strategy as surely the Lib Dem MPs would take part in any National Government. If all Lib Dem MPs were involved in a Government of National unity, then someone needs to lead the non parliamentary party!

The scenario is as follows, the PM cannot get Chequers through parliament. The Tory Brexiteers launch a leadership contest. The PM invites dissident moderate Labour MPs and the Lib Dems into Government. She then calls an election whereby moderate Tories, Labour and all LD are all under the Coupon of National Government candidates. The central theme of the National Government ticket is to maintain the UK in the EU and to retract Article 50 should she win. If this scenario did occur, what would the Brexiteers do such as Johnson, Fox and Rees - Mogg. Would they risk defeat under a non National banner? I suspect Johnson would rather be pissing inside the tent than outside and Fox likes being in power hence his non resignation this summer! Just saying, the above scenario is a possibility and we should not judge Cable today as being anything other than intelligent given the wider context.

To be honest, I'm not sure who would gain from infiltrating the lib dems. Anybody who has a party who already represents them wouldn't want to install a leader, because they'd just split their own party's vote

Can't believe Vince isn't going to get knifed over this. Didn't (far more) Lib Dem MPs stage a coup against Menzies Campbell for basically being a bit old and useless? Vince is now that and effectively a lame duck, given he's said he's going, is generally agreed to have been abysmal, and now has put forward an absurd proposal while losing another six months at a key moment when Labour may well be splintering, implementing it.

Added to that, despite having only 12 MPs, they have two really good options for leader (Moran, Swinson - the former I think would be excellent), and two senior figures (Davey, Lamb) who'd do better if they fancy a dull caretaker who'd nonetheless be less useless.

Several senior MPs have this summer mentioned a period of National Government being the only way out of the Brexit Malaise and the extremist take over of the Labour party. Nicholas Soames and Mike Gapes have even mentioned it on the floor of the H of C.

I think Cable might well be positioning the Lib Dems a survival strategy as surely the Lib Dem MPs would take part in any National Government. If all Lib Dem MPs were involved in a Government of National unity, then someone needs to lead the non parliamentary party!

The scenario is as follows, the PM cannot get Chequers through parliament. The Tory Brexiteers launch a leadership contest. The PM invites dissident moderate Labour MPs and the Lib Dems into Government. She then calls an election whereby moderate Tories, Labour and all LD are all under the Coupon of National Government candidates. The central theme of the National Government ticket is to maintain the UK in the EU and to retract Article 50 should she win. If this scenario did occur, what would the Brexiteers do such as Johnson, Fox and Rees - Mogg. Would they risk defeat under a non National banner? I suspect Johnson would rather be pissing inside the tent than outside and Fox likes being in power hence his non resignation this summer! Just saying, the above scenario is a possibility and we should not judge Cable today as being anything other than intelligent given the wider context.

You think May is the person to go through with all that?

Wow!

Maybe I will end up eating my baseball cap, but nothing in her entire life suggests that level of historic risk taking par excellence.

Several senior MPs have this summer mentioned a period of National Government being the only way out of the Brexit Malaise and the extremist take over of the Labour party. Nicholas Soames and Mike Gapes have even mentioned it on the floor of the H of C.

I think Cable might well be positioning the Lib Dems a survival strategy as surely the Lib Dem MPs would take part in any National Government. If all Lib Dem MPs were involved in a Government of National unity, then someone needs to lead the non parliamentary party!

The scenario is as follows, the PM cannot get Chequers through parliament. The Tory Brexiteers launch a leadership contest. The PM invites dissident moderate Labour MPs and the Lib Dems into Government. She then calls an election whereby moderate Tories, Labour and all LD are all under the Coupon of National Government candidates. The central theme of the National Government ticket is to maintain the UK in the EU and to retract Article 50 should she win. If this scenario did occur, what would the Brexiteers do such as Johnson, Fox and Rees - Mogg. Would they risk defeat under a non National banner? I suspect Johnson would rather be pissing inside the tent than outside and Fox likes being in power hence his non resignation this summer! Just saying, the above scenario is a possibility and we should not judge Cable today as being anything other than intelligent given the wider context.

So you're saying that Cable is intelligent because he's putting his party at huge risk in order to prepare for this insane fever-dream scenario that will never ina million years transpire?

To be honest, I'm not sure who would gain from infiltrating the lib dems. Anybody who has a party who already represents them wouldn't want to install a leader, because they'd just split their own party's vote

If enough SWP/Kipper types infiltrate, then they could tie the party in knots for months with local party crap about Israel or whatever.

Have the Lib Dems not been watching over the summer, at a live example of what happens when a political party opens itself up to anyone without a commitment?

The problem with opening up is that it doesn't work. Ordinary busy, fairly non-political people don't join as supporters, just as they haven't joined as members. Certainly not in the numbers strategists theorise about.

Instead, madly committed, raving loons who have been in other fringe parties see a massive open goal opportunity and go for it.

Can Vince explain to us why he thinks LibDems will be different to Labour?

And can his party afford a decent level of checking of supporters to see whether they are members of other parties or have been in the past.

Indeed, I can’t see any positives that could come out of it, it would be a takeover by fringe intereststs. What happens if the “new members” want to elect David Ward, Chris Rennard or Lembit Opik?

The Tories are dealing with a similar problem at the moment, as Arron Banks is spending a lot of money encouraging entryists. We don’t want people with “UKIP TILL I DIE” or “FREE TOMMY ROBINSON” as their Twitter handles joining, thanks very much.

Several senior MPs have this summer mentioned a period of National Government being the only way out of the Brexit Malaise and the extremist take over of the Labour party. Nicholas Soames and Mike Gapes have even mentioned it on the floor of the H of C.

I think Cable might well be positioning the Lib Dems a survival strategy as surely the Lib Dem MPs would take part in any National Government. If all Lib Dem MPs were involved in a Government of National unity, then someone needs to lead the non parliamentary party!

The scenario is as follows, the PM cannot get Chequers through parliament. The Tory Brexiteers launch a leadership contest. The PM invites dissident moderate Labour MPs and the Lib Dems into Government. She then calls an election whereby moderate Tories, Labour and all LD are all under the Coupon of National Government candidates. The central theme of the National Government ticket is to maintain the UK in the EU and to retract Article 50 should she win. If this scenario did occur, what would the Brexiteers do such as Johnson, Fox and Rees - Mogg. Would they risk defeat under a non National banner? I suspect Johnson would rather be pissing inside the tent than outside and Fox likes being in power hence his non resignation this summer! Just saying, the above scenario is a possibility and we should not judge Cable today as being anything other than intelligent given the wider context.

This is pure fantasy and would collapse after the first leaked WhatsApp group chat.

Several senior MPs have this summer mentioned a period of National Government being the only way out of the Brexit Malaise and the extremist take over of the Labour party. Nicholas Soames and Mike Gapes have even mentioned it on the floor of the H of C.

I think Cable might well be positioning the Lib Dems a survival strategy as surely the Lib Dem MPs would take part in any National Government. If all Lib Dem MPs were involved in a Government of National unity, then someone needs to lead the non parliamentary party!

The scenario is as follows, the PM cannot get Chequers through parliament. The Tory Brexiteers launch a leadership contest. The PM invites dissident moderate Labour MPs and the Lib Dems into Government. She then calls an election whereby moderate Tories, Labour and all LD are all under the Coupon of National Government candidates. The central theme of the National Government ticket is to maintain the UK in the EU and to retract Article 50 should she win. If this scenario did occur, what would the Brexiteers do such as Johnson, Fox and Rees - Mogg. Would they risk defeat under a non National banner? I suspect Johnson would rather be pissing inside the tent than outside and Fox likes being in power hence his non resignation this summer! Just saying, the above scenario is a possibility and we should not judge Cable today as being anything other than intelligent given the wider context.

You think May is the person to go through with all that?

Wow!

Maybe I will end up eating my baseball cap, but nothing in her entire life suggests that level of historic risk taking par excellence.

It might be her only option. If she is being put on notice of a leadership challenge.

I can't see the problem with this proposal tbh. Are we worried about legions of extreme centrists?

The Tories should do the same for their leadership contests in the future, after all they have had open primaries for MP positions so why not an open leadership contest with the whole of the population invited to engage? Indeed, in the longer run it could be used to change Conservative voters into Conservative members. Some extremists will engage but if they are open to entryism at the moment from the far right, then opening the franchise completely will stop extremists in their tracks.

I can't see the problem with this proposal tbh. Are we worried about legions of extreme centrists?

The Tories should do the same for their leadership contests in the future, after all they have had open primaries for MP positions so why not an open leadership contest with the whole of the population invited to engage? Indeed, in the longer run it could be used to change Conservative voters into Conservative members. Some extremists will engage but if they are open to entryism at the moment from the far right, then opening the franchise completely will stop extremists in their tracks.

I can't see the problem with this proposal tbh. Are we worried about legions of extreme centrists?

The Tories should do the same for their leadership contests in the future, after all they have had open primaries for MP positions so why not an open leadership contest with the whole of the population invited to engage? Indeed, in the longer run it could be used to change Conservative voters into Conservative members. Some extremists will engage but if they are open to entryism at the moment from the far right, then opening the franchise completely will stop extremists in their tracks.

We are grafting a Presidential position onto a parliamentary system of government.

"German spy chief at odds with Merkel over hounding of migrants in ChemnitzMichelle Martin, Paul Carrel

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany’s domestic spy chief expressed scepticism on Friday that migrants had been hounded in Chemnitz after the fatal stabbing of a German man, undermining Chancellor Angela Merkel who has said images from the eastern city “very clearly” showed hate."

So Labour MPs escape they create a centrist party with the Lib Dem’s. It does exceptionally well, gets 50-100 seats and holds the balance of power between the two big parties stuck mid 200s.

What next?

We likely still have a Tory PM as most of the votes they take will probably be from Remain backing Labour voters rather than mainly Leave voting Tory voters so the Tories likely remain largest party but most votes will have to be compromised over to get through

So Labour MPs escape they create a centrist party with the Lib Dem’s. It does exceptionally well, gets 50-100 seats and holds the balance of power between the two big parties stuck mid 200s.

What next?

We likely still have a Tory PM as most of the votes they take will probably be from Remain backing Labour voters rather than mainly Leave voting Tory voters so the Tories likely remain largest party but most votes will have to be compromised over to get through

So Labour MPs escape they create a centrist party with the Lib Dem’s. It does exceptionally well, gets 50-100 seats and holds the balance of power between the two big parties stuck mid 200s.

What next?

We likely still have a Tory PM as most of the votes they take will probably be from Remain backing Labour voters rather than mainly Leave voting Tory voters so the Tories likely remain largest party but most votes will have to be compromised over to get through

Labour would surely have to have a new leader before any New Party would deal. No point in walking away from Corbyn only to then bring him into government with you. Same for his fellow travellers. None of his supporters would be welcome - surely.

I can't see the problem with this proposal tbh. Are we worried about legions of extreme centrists?

The Tories should do the same for their leadership contests in the future, after all they have had open primaries for MP positions so why not an open leadership contest with the whole of the population invited to engage? Indeed, in the longer run it could be used to change Conservative voters into Conservative members. Some extremists will engage but if they are open to entryism at the moment from the far right, then opening the franchise completely will stop extremists in their tracks.

I did not mean the candidates as they would come from the PCP (So no Trump but Johnson might do better than the current system), just all voters would get involved in the selection. I see the downside but at least it avoids entryism.

So Labour MPs escape they create a centrist party with the Lib Dem’s. It does exceptionally well, gets 50-100 seats and holds the balance of power between the two big parties stuck mid 200s.

What next?

Not gonna happen but if it did, probably a coalition with Labour (and the SNP if required) implementing most of Labour's social and economic policies on the condition Corbyn, Milne and co aren't allowed anywhere near No. 10. Would be perfect, in power and you send the cranks into a marginalised frenzy and reunite Labour as a sensible party again.

Labour would surely have to have a new leader before any New Party would deal. No point in walking away from Corbyn only to then bring him into government with you. Same for his fellow travellers. None of his supporters would be welcome - surely.

So Labour MPs escape they create a centrist party with the Lib Dem’s. It does exceptionally well, gets 50-100 seats and holds the balance of power between the two big parties stuck mid 200s.

What next?

Not gonna happen but if it did, probably a coalition with Labour (and the SNP if required) implementing most of Labour's social and economic policies on the condition Corbyn, Milne and co aren't allowed anywhere near No. 10. Would be perfect, in power and you send the cranks into a marginalised frenzy and reunite Labour as a sensible party again.

Well , we can dream, eh?

So exactly the same as staying put, but with less chance of it happening.

As soon as Labour wins power, assuming a small majority, organised backbenchers become very powerful.

At the moment, stopping Brexit via the #peoplesvote. The party has doubled its membership over the last couple of years on that basis.

There is no consensus on what we are for otherwise.

There is no doubt that Brexit is the single most important event facing the country at the minute, but being a one trick pony is only going to get you so far. Invisible Vince wasn't much of a circus master.

How about a new party which stands in England and Wales only and copies SNP-style progressive policies?

Is it progressive to stop poor Scottish students have full access to Higher Education? I don't see anything progressive there at all.

Delete that word if you don't agree with it.

My hypothetical party's USP would be that it put the interests of people in England and Wales first and didn't involve itself so much in Palestine or Venezuela, but had centre-left policies rather than being another UKIP.

I'd say we only have a big two now, unless you're including the SNP as one of the three? Surely the point of any modern political party is to get elected, and then get reelected? Running the country clearly comes a distant second. Maybe we should all join the Lib Dems, make it a real #peoplesparty and keep the professionals out of the loop?

At the moment, stopping Brexit via the #peoplesvote. The party has doubled its membership over the last couple of years on that basis.

There is no consensus on what we are for otherwise.

There is no doubt that Brexit is the single most important event facing the country at the minute, but being a one trick pony is only going to get you so far. Invisible Vince wasn't much of a circus master.

The Cable plan might just work, but it's premised on two assumptions. Firstly it doesn't have much of an institutional investment to lose. Secondly there isn't anyone within that institution able to take it forward.I would say the second is probably the case. The first I'm not sure.of. I think the Liberal or Lib Dem brand does have some value.

So Labour MPs escape they create a centrist party with the Lib Dem’s. It does exceptionally well, gets 50-100 seats and holds the balance of power between the two big parties stuck mid 200s.

What next?

Not gonna happen but if it did, probably a coalition with Labour (and the SNP if required) implementing most of Labour's social and economic policies on the condition Corbyn, Milne and co aren't allowed anywhere near No. 10. Would be perfect, in power and you send the cranks into a marginalised frenzy and reunite Labour as a sensible party again.

Well , we can dream, eh?

So exactly the same as staying put, but with less chance of it happening.

As soon as Labour wins power, assuming a small majority, organised backbenchers become very powerful.

Not in Corbyn's Labour. The mob is already powerful and will only get more so. Imagine he does win a narrow election - MPs aren't going to be able to turf him out without being utterly destroyed by the Momentum hordes. Plus, there's the moral question.

So Labour MPs escape they create a centrist party with the Lib Dem’s. It does exceptionally well, gets 50-100 seats and holds the balance of power between the two big parties stuck mid 200s.

What next?

Not gonna happen but if it did, probably a coalition with Labour (and the SNP if required) implementing most of Labour's social and economic policies on the condition Corbyn, Milne and co aren't allowed anywhere near No. 10. Would be perfect, in power and you send the cranks into a marginalised frenzy and reunite Labour as a sensible party again.

Well , we can dream, eh?

So exactly the same as staying put, but with less chance of it happening.

As soon as Labour wins power, assuming a small majority, organised backbenchers become very powerful.

Not in Corbyn's Labour. The mob is already powerful and will only get more so. Imagine he does win a narrow election - MPs aren't going to be able to turf him out without being utterly destroyed by the Momentum hordes. Plus, there's the moral question.

At the moment, stopping Brexit via the #peoplesvote. The party has doubled its membership over the last couple of years on that basis.

There is no consensus on what we are for otherwise.

There is no doubt that Brexit is the single most important event facing the country at the minute, but being a one trick pony is only going to get you so far. Invisible Vince wasn't much of a circus master.

I completely agree.

I opposed Vince from the start,today convinced me that I was correct.

It just seems he has managed to fail as a leader and decides to come up with a rambling mess of an idea

Layla Moran seems capable enough but is in a very marginal seat. However she woud be a huge improvement on the old fossil (says an old fossil)

On Robert's point on demographics (which is the economic killer that dare not speak its name) it seems we have three choices: (1) accept ever more anemica growth and taxes on the workers, and a slower rise in living standards (2) mass immigration or (3) more home births.

After much deliberation I've changed my mind. I think the Government should adopt policies that support and encourage young families and births. This should include greater childcare support, child benefit and parenting/support centres. It also needs to then include more education on base and higher skills. This should be coupled with reforms to encourage those over 65 to work part or full time and contribute. I'd also cut NI for employers and extend it to be a lifelong tax under the header of "social insurance".

That's the only way I see we can get reasonable growth in the long term without mass immigration.

Debating tips for the modern age...ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4q-VbAIMzU&feature=youtu.be

I wonder how long it will take for the Corbynista to make that go viral without realising it’s a spoof. The young lady teacher with the slight Aussie accent is Chloe Westley from the Taxpayers’ Alliance.

I'd say we only have a big two now, unless you're including the SNP as one of the three? Surely the point of any modern political party is to get elected, and then get reelected? Running the country clearly comes a distant second. Maybe we should all join the Lib Dems, make it a real #peoplesparty and keep the professionals out of the loop?

The LibDems got themselves elected into government and their supporters never forgave them for it.

That seems to be the question Vince Cable is asking too. Hence his plan.

Not much of a plan, is it? We're shit and we need to parachute some fecker in who can actually engage with the public and come up with something that doesn't involve us chewing off the EU?

I suspect Cable is hoping for a Macron. You can select from the current crop of MPs. To be fair they are decent pavement politicians. Getting elected as a Lib Dem MP is hard work when the natural order is one of the main parties. They are good at potholes but so much on the bigger picture. Heather remains firmly unalight. So you find someone able to articulate an idea that can resonate.and bring new people in. There are plenty reasons why this might not work, aired on his forum. The Devils Advocate would say, what's to lose?

That seems to be the question Vince Cable is asking too. Hence his plan.

Not much of a plan, is it? We're shit and we need to parachute some fecker in who can actually engage with the public and come up with something that doesn't involve us chewing off the EU?

I suspect Cable is hoping for a Macron. You can select from the current crop of MPs. To be fair they are decent pavement politicians. Getting elected as a Lib Dem MP is hard work when the natural order is one of the main parties. They are good at potholes but so much on the bigger picture. Heather remains firmly unalight. So you find someone able to articulate an idea that can resonate.and bring new people in. There are plenty reasons why this might not work, aired on his forum. The Devils Advocate would say, what's to lose?

Macron came from the governing party where he was a popular minister in an unpopular administration. Not sure we have a Macron.

That seems to be the question Vince Cable is asking too. Hence his plan.

Not much of a plan, is it? We're shit and we need to parachute some fecker in who can actually engage with the public and come up with something that doesn't involve us chewing off the EU?

I suspect Cable is hoping for a Macron. You can select from the current crop of MPs. To be fair they are decent pavement politicians. Getting elected as a Lib Dem MP is hard work when the natural order is one of the main parties. They are good at potholes but so much on the bigger picture. Heather remains firmly unalight. So you find someone able to articulate an idea that can resonate.and bring new people in. There are plenty reasons why this might not work, aired on his forum. The Devils Advocate would say, what's to lose?

Macron came from the governing party where he was a popular minister in an unpopular administration. Not sure we have a Macron.