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We haven't yet seen a fourth ML pitch from Phil. Not saying it won't happen, but Lazy's post is just not accurate, hence my response.

If he doesn't have that pitch, I am not sure he can be a ML starter.

He did have a Changeup in 07'. He's had it before. Not sure why he lost it from then to now. Did he have the cutter in 07? No. So it's fair to say that he hasn't had 4 working pitches at a time. Not sure we've seen that from Joba either.

Either way, velocity will be important. 92-94 Hughes >>> the 90-92 version.

Re: 2010 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

Originally Posted by Hellsing

If he doesn't have that pitch, I am not sure he can be a ML starter.

He did have a Changeup in 07'. He's had it before. Not sure why he lost it from then to now. Did he have the cutter in 07? No. So it's fair to say that he hasn't had 4 working pitches at a time. Not sure we've seen that from Joba either.

Either way, velocity will be important. 92-94 Hughes >>> the 90-92 version.

I agree with the bookending comments, however the bolded sentence implies you completely avoided the link which I cited as proof. Joba's changeup was dominant in that Red Sox game and he showed at least an average curveball that night as well which he used to strike out Pedroia looking. He has certainly shown both a good curve and changeup in other games as well. He has four ML pitches.

Re: 2010 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

This is just absurd. What exactly constitutes "an actual pitcher" and how can you proclaim Phil as one and Joba not? Joba actually has more pitches than Phil and has proven more as a starter.

Also, if you think Phil's velocity going from 91-93 as a starter to sitting 94-96 as a bullpen arm is not "crucial to his success" as a reliever or starter, you are out of your mind.

Phil's curve is so far superior to anything Joba throws that we shouldn't even be having this discussion. It has the potential to be one of the top 10 pitches in the game, and I don't think anyone here will argue that. Even if Phil only has three pitches and has to work to find a 4th, it's better than Joba's four.

Re: 2010 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

Originally Posted by Melan-cynic

I agree with the bookending comments, however the bolded sentence implies you completely avoided the link which I cited as proof. Joba's changeup was dominant in that Red Sox game and he showed at least an average curveball that night as well which he used to strike out Pedroia looking. He has certainly shown both a good curve and changeup in other games as well.

I didn't avoid the link. Other than 1 or 2 starts, has Joba been able to put all of his pitches together consistently? That was my question.

His FB sucked last year: -21 RAA. His Slider was good. According to Fangraphs, his Changeup sucked: -3.1 RAA. His curve was OK at 0.3 RAA.

Hughes had a better FB last year. His cutter was 4.6 RAA. His Change up and Curve were both just under average.

So does Joba have a changeup? Sure. He does. Does he throw it with consistency? No. I just don't agree that Joba has 4 good pitches that he throws with ANY consistency.

Not saying Phil does either, but the two he DOES throw are solid. He needs his Curve and Changeup to round into form. (Phil's curve was great in 07, but then again...so was Joba...lol)

Re: 2010 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

Originally Posted by LazyEyeLou

Phil's curve is so far superior to anything Joba throws that we shouldn't even be having this discussion. It has the potential to be one of the top 10 pitches in the game, and I don't think anyone here will argue that. Even if Phil only has three pitches and has to work to find a 4th, it's better than Joba's four.

Re: 2010 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

The difference is Phil is getting better. Joba is not. Joba started off great and has been in decline. Phil started off well, became sh!tty due to an injury, then found himself in the pen.

We have yet to see this enlightenment come to fruition, my friend. Hughes has done absolutely jack as a SP at the ML level, outside of 2 or 3 dominant starts. You cannot say Hughes found himself as a starter during his time in the bullpen, simply because he hasnt started any real games after last season. It all starts tonight. JTTP'ers try really hard to make it seem like that ST competition had any reality to it, or that Hughes is head and shoulders better than Chamberlain as a SP, or that Hughes and Chamberlain have been handled similarly as prospects, all of which are clearly FAR from the truth.

Re: 2010 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

Originally Posted by Abe Frohman

We have yet to see this enlightenment come to fruition, my friend. Hughes has done absolutely jack as a SP at the ML level, outside of 2 or 3 dominant starts. You cannot say Hughes found himself as a starter during his time in the bullpen, simply because he hasnt started any real games after last season. It all starts tonight. JTTP'ers try really hard to make it seem like that ST competition had any reality to it, or that Hughes is head and shoulders better than Chamberlain as a SP, or that Hughes and Chamberlain have been handled similarly as prospects, all of which are clearly FAR from the truth.

Niether one of them has done anything with any consistency to suggest they can be good SPs.

Hughes was good in 72 IP as a 21 year old. Joba was very good in 08 as a starter.

Neither one has logged enough innings to really prove anything. However, Joba is not trending upward. IDK how you can argue against that point. If the previous sentence was not correct, why wasn't he given the 5th spot in the rotation?