And a re-confirmation of why I *love* Mari and would wish she was real I was related to her. Anyone who can regain their equilibrium so quickly, and is willing to give Andi a chance after everything – but also show a bit of frivolity (not quite the right word, but I can’t think what it would be) and still have an Asop-fable feel towards Andi.

“Fixing” a mistake doesn’t mean making it go away. It means starting to repair the damage it caused. Andi knows she can’t just make everyone forget what she did, but she might be able to close the rift torn between them.

Yea, that’s what I mean though, I don’t think she can (or should) fix this – she’s not going to be Todd’s girlfriend or Mari’s surrogate daughter again. Like I think the best they can hope for in the long run is being friends, and even that will take a lot of time and work.

I don’t think Andi is trying to become Todd’s girlfriend again anymore. She probably still loves him, and therefore would be lying if she said she didn’t have a fantasy of getting back together, sure. But I think what she’s trying to do here is just be accepted enough that she can go to family events as Amanda’s mother. It’s not always possible for all parties to act as family in coparenting situations, but if it’s ever going to be possible in this situation (probably maybe yes? yay!), Andi and Mari have made a good start here.

I have to admit I agree. Her first argument wasn’t to be worried about Amanda, but that she had been going there forever. After he shot her down she brought up Amanda. But she made great strides in this one to me, and I will definitely give her credit for that.

Yaypers! This is what we’ve been waiting for! An honest acknowledgement of wrongdoing, a statement of intention for the future, and acknowledgement that it may not be possible to get back to what they had but she’s going to try anyway, and then, from the other side, some level of cautious reconciliation.

No quibbling, no ducking responsibility, no double-edged comments, none of the stuff that keep making us wonder about what’s going on in Andi’s head.

And yeah, as Mikael points out, some things can’t be fixed, but that’s the language you tend to use anyway. Humans aren’t really made to “put things behind us” — to move on from trauma without, in some way, attempting to fix that trauma. That’s normal.

You know… sometimes the kind of advice I hear about certain people is kind of like “Hey, approach this logically and stop being all human about it.” And frankly, on more than one occasion I’ve been struck by how, in the particular circumstances being discussed at the time, the person most capable of doing what was being advised would be a *sociopath* — someone who doesn’t care what other humans think.

Like, there’s a think that’s almost a mantra in the doctrinal circles I grew up in, that only God can forgive so what you do is you confess to God and just move on and grow up and if the other person can’t forgive you, well that’s their problem. But that’s the kind of thing abusers do! “Hey, I know I beat you up, but that was a year ago and I’ve changed and if you can’t forgive me then YOU have a problem.”

If you’re an abuser, well, the relationship needs to stop COLD, and you need to sort out your own life away from your victim. Not try to make it right, not stay together (it feeds abusive attitudes to have the victim stick around).

But if you’re not an abuser, and it’s another sort of problem that has broken the relationship between you and someone you should be close to? You attempt to make things right again. Whether that means apologizing (which is sometimes enough), or replacing an item, or offering something of similar value, or whatever, you make a judgment call on what you think will mend some bridges.

Now, with Andi, I still think it was a mistake to muscle into the celebration, and I do think she falls under the category of “abuser” from what I’ve read of the breadth of that definition. But if we’re here, and if she’s going to not feed into that “eh, it’s behind us, let’s move on” mindset that, as I said, is more sociopath than normal social human, then trying to “fix” things is the right thing to do. Regardless of whether it’s POSSIBLE.

“You’re inviting HER to your party? Don’t you remember what she did to you ten years ago?”
“No. I distinctly remember forgetting it.”

Depending on the quality of the offense, the character of the offender, and whether it seemed to be a one-time thing or a recurring pattern, forgetting an offense can be an act of grace.

Also, they’ve studied whether humans can deliberately forget things by concentrating on forgetting them, and it turns out we can. Which is nice. And if you happen to have been through a traumatic event that continues to dog you even though there’s no reason for it — most obviously when the person who hurt you is dead but you still have flashbacks — it might be worth investing some time in purposely forgetting what happened. Not just trying not to think about it, but actually programming your brain to break those links somehow.

if you forgive then you do not hold it against them and do not let it poison you with thoughts of retribution or forcing them to say they are sorry
if you forget you leave your self open to them doing it again

If you don’t open yourself to them doing it again, then you remain closed off to that avenue; you refuse to go back the way things were. I see there being two avenues; forgive and forget, Vs. forgive and Not forget,… And it is also very reasonable to arrange and change your relationship so that there are balances in place so they won’t be allowed to do that again. I wouldn’t forgive and forget unless I was willing to risk them doing that again. Both ways have risks and rewards.

i think we may be straying into semantics but their is a difference between making the same mistake twice and getting hurt because you didn’t think or forgot your lesson. and knowingly taking a risk because you believe the rewards are worth it. Kilyle’s talk of suppressing memories clearly falls into the former.

because no two people will ever hurt you in the same way???
no
life lessons can be learnt for similar situations(and helping people that have had similar experiences) and their is no real way of knowing the same situation will not come up or something were
forgiving them truly breaks the hold this action has. on you beyond that their are disassociation techniques that reduce the emotional component of a memory. (their is practically no limit to how you can reprogram your mind but it should be done with medical advice)

There are two years where I have very few specific memories. I remember a few things, but mostly the only thing I can recall is pain. All-consuming, soul-destroying pain. The one thing all these memories have in common is one very specific thing: the place I lived.

Despite the fact that the last 15 years of suffering from clinical depression can be traced to that exact place, my parents would go to any lengths to force me there. I literally had to be forced to go. Their favourite method is emotional blackmail. I hated it, I was miserable the entire time, and it took such an emotional toll on me I would be so withdrawn when I got back, at one point my mom actually asked me if I was being molested.

I may have forgotten almost everything that happened to me there, but I don’t think I will EVER be able to forgive the people who caused it to happen. I care about them, but I can’t forgive them.

i think you are actually proving my point forgetting doesn’t free you form the pain you may (and my brother had to do this) seek out someone to help you remember what happened so you can un-pack it (once again seek advice for actual professionals) instead of long term clients :).
p.s i never said forgiving people was easy

Actually quite the opposite is true, trying not to think of something, trying to “forget” it has the reverse effect, it imprints the thought or idea further in your mind. The best way to forget something is to focus your attention elsewhere and not pay any particular attention to it one way or another. If people could willfully forget things then a lot of problems (OCD, PTSD, etc.) would be easy to solve.

It’s interesting because a long time ago I trained my mind to not fall for the “try not to think about a white elephant” trap — I respond to “try not to think about” lines by blanking my mind in a way that doesn’t trigger images like that. I love it every time it comes up and I’m still immune 😀

hmm after reading the link with lines like “the possible consequences of a deliberate repression of memories are still not clearly established.”
and the proven problems some people can have with suppressed traumatic memories, or become trained to forget almost everything because of past trauma “i actually new some one with this problem”, I still strongly recommend against this course of action (with the cavit you have got a sound medical opinion preferably two)

…how, exactly, can we solve the problem of “We don’t know what the long-term consequences of this action might be” if we never try the action because we don’t know what might happen?

And I would hazard there are some victims of extreme circumstances who would benefit from even short-term forgetting, of specific events, whose benefit would potentially be great enough to offset most potential unknown future problems.

I once started writing a story in which a guy has the power to walk a victim through their memories, then transfer those memories to himself while at the same time erasing them from the victim’s head. The principle that seemed obvious to me at the time was “If any other technique works, USE IT. If no other technique works, and the memories are having such an extremely negative effect on your life that this technique seems reasonable, TRY IT.”

Speculative fiction, sure — including the part about how the American justice system would have to change to accommodate cases where the victim of a horrible crime literally didn’t have the memory anymore, but another person who wasn’t the victim had stewardship of that memory — but the principle isn’t so unreasonable. If nothing else works, and you can’t put up with how things are, you reach for unlikely extreme solutions.

i think you missed the part where trauma causing people to repress memorises has had KNOWN negative consequence why then whilst it is still an untested method would any one want to test it when other techniques like pattern interruption and disassociation and re-association are all effective long term solutions with clinically proven effectiveness
the one that worked for me was pattern breaking (but it took years)

YES! Sometimes characters in this comic do things that are unforgivable, but nobody is ever irredeemable. (People we haven’t met, perhaps, like some of the participants in the Sarnothi civil war, as well as the humans who provoked said war…) I’ve believed that Andi would make us proud ever since she stood up to her mother.

Mari looks ready to cry after all that, which for me frames her aggression as a defensive reflex more then genuine malice. Like “I want you to know how much you hurt me but I don’t want to look weak” kind of thing. Grandma needs a hug.

Can not emphasize the word FINALLY enough. She isn’t using apology as a defense to a verbal assault and I legitimately believe her here. Largely because they clearly moved to doing there own things and this had the potential to rekindle the argument and judging by her facial expressions she knew that risk was there.

Also gotta love Mari’s dual meaning there. Maybe it is just me but in her statement of going all the way I see both a comment about the baking and advice about making this better. As stated above things might not be able to be brought back to their original, but I think she was telling Andi to try and get them to there no matter what.

I don’t think she will ever be able to date Todd again. Reallistically the only person this harmed more then him is Amanda. Yes grandparents love and dote on grand children, but between Todd’s own past. Their fight on adoption pre comic and the fact that many parents are far more protective then grandparents that wound isnt going to heal, it is going to leave one nasty scar that if she pokes it wrong he will lash back. and even that is going to take a long time to reach.

But on the other side of things I do think Mari and Theo are at that age of life is too short to hold a grudge. If Andi shows legitimate and heartfelt attempts to repair this I do think they will accept her as family once more. If that occurs I think it will help Todd become more accepting of Andi, and speed up the process of having this wound scar over.

Oh, the double meaning is definitely intended. And yeah, it’s a great message if a person is in the right mindset.

Not such a good message if Andi were still back in some of her earlier mindsets, like “Go ahead full speed and WIN TODD BACK.” So it’s gotta be a legitimate endeavor, not an entitled one, for sure. But it’s good advice in general.

Andi has been on the right track for a while now but people keep yelling at her or giving her flack for her past or actions she had little control over that they’ve caused her to veer off course a few times. I’m glad she’s really trying and learning to speak up to people even after they’ve yelled at her and shut down the conversation. I’m glad she’s learning conflict is necessary sometimes. And I’m also really happy that Mari laid off a bit. I can see it was more of an emotional overflow that transmitted verbally. She looks pretty sad and even a bit guilty now. Two wrongs don’t make a right and in the end, it usually makes you feel like a crappy person for sinking to that level for a minutes worth of satisfaction.

She had little control over? Lying for 9 years isn’t something she had little control over. People keep yelling at her because what she did was abhorrent and she only now has actually even apologized for it. People may disagree, but frankly sometimes people NEED to be yelled at, both so they understand the severity of what they’ve done and because the agreived person deserves to have the catharsis of being able to emotional vent against the person who wronged them. I’m not saying yelling alone will solve anything or that its right in all situations, but frankly given the depths of pain caused by Andi’s utterly and completely selfish decision I’d say the Smith family, Todd more than anyone is entitled to some emotional rage. As for causing her to veer off course, I’m sorry but she is a grown adult not a little child, she is responsible for veering off course, not them.

Ah I should clarify, the whole, Lillian giving Andi crap for Amanda getting alcohol thing. That wasn’t Andi’Andi’s fault, the two bozos at the stand should have stopped Amanda, they just chose to flail about and shriek like morons instead. I meant her recent endeavor with Amanda and motherhood, people keep shooting her down for every little thing.

To be fair, I think that whole event is perhaps the least believable (in a comic about sentient semi-aquatic beings mind you) we’ve ever seen in the comic. No way does a kid down shots of alcohol like that without flinching. I feel like it was an unnecessary forced “drama” episode.

Not only that but it’s liquor – even at a shin-dig like that, servers have to have a liquor license – and the servers *will* lose that license and have a huge fine for what they allowed to happen. If I was a server (which I do do on the side) I would snatch the cup out of her hand. We also would probably have one or two cups poured, and the bottles ready to pour more when someone asks, but not have 20 sitting out like that. But if it happened as it does irl – then we wouldn’t have much a comic here (no Selkie at all after all) – so for the sake of story, I like the little things to slide.

It seems to me like Andi is a *very* polarizing figure amongst the readers of this webcomic. I wonder how much of our reaction is based on whether we sympathize with Andi or whether we’ve personally suffered from having someone like Andi in our lives?

(As I have previously said, I have some sympathy for Andi because I have done some really STUPID, HURTFUL things in my life (although, granted, not on the scale of what she has done). I can only speak for myself, but when I can’t sleep at 4 A.M. my brain keeps reminding me of the people I’ve hurt by being dumb and thoughtless. Every day at some point I land up re-reminding myself that I’ve done terrible things. After a while the guilt and remorse really, REALLY, does make you feel like you’re a despicable person and no matter what decent things you’ve done since, you’ll always essentially suck and are worthless because you’ve hurt people you love. So a lot of Andi’s reactions and struggle hit close to home for me.)

Uncomfortable self-referenitiality aside, I think Andi is doing a good job here. I especially like how she switched to “Mrs. Smith” when she started to say “Mimi” – maybe this is just my personal upbringing, but to me that shows respect and an awareness of the fact that she hasn’t earned that level of familiarity. I also love Mimi offering her “special” vanilla bean extract. 🙂

And ultimately, if Andi can reconcile or at least reach a “cease-fire” with Todd’s family, it can be nothing but good for Amanda and Selkie.

PS: Dave, I’ve got to applaud you for such a great portrayal of non-traditional families – including the complexities that may be involved. 😀

I do kind of suspect some of people who are defending Andi super hard are projecting in some way.

Personally I’m mostly invested in the comic for Selkie and Todd’s story, so Andi and Amanda currently both take an antagonistic role to their well being in my mind, so I guess that does paint how I view them (though the genuinely crappy things they did certainly wouldn’t help even if they were the protagonists).

Yes, the Todd and Selkie relationship as well as the Sarnothi story in general are what keep me invested in the comic. Personally I’d have been much happier if Andi (and to a lesser extent Amanda) hadn’t become such central characters to the whole thing. At times it feels like the comic is more about them then Selkie and Todd. But this is Dave’s story not mine, so I don’t really get a say 🙂

I stated during a previous comic that I like Andi and Amanda because protagonists tend to be boring and one dimensional to me, whereas people labeled as antagonists tend to be much more diverse and are rarely ‘evil for the sake of being evil’ and catch my interest more. I like Selkie, because she’s shown to be more than just a good, clever little girl. She’s a sneaky brat too. Not nearly as much as Amanda is, but she’s no saint. Todd, on the other hand, I find pretty boring.

Honestly, my favorite character is probably Theo. He’s well rounded and has so much depth to his character. I find him interesting as hell. My second favorite is Andi and then Pohl. I don’t really care for Sai Fen much or Todd. They aren’t bad characters by any means at all, I just don’t find them as interesting as others.

I’ve always been a sucker for the ‘bad’ characters though, which is why I like Andi and Amanda so much. They’re labeled as bad, but their history doesn’t make them so black and white. We have more history on those two than we do on Todd or Selkie. The more I see of their past, the more I see that their actions aren’t necessarily the way we originally painted them as. Sure, people may think badly of me for liking them more than I like Todd or Selkie, but I don’t really care. I think they’re incredibly realistic and interesting characters who invoke some of the more primal essance of humanity that we all try to avoid thinking about. So to me, they’re very cool.

For me Andi’s behaviors and character traits were simply incredibly offputing, even before we knew the depth of what she had done she was a rather shallow and selfish character. Then we found out precisely how selfish and manipulative and man oh man, my dislike for her went off the charts. It was compounded by her continuing selfish behavior (abandoning Amanda to avoid having to confront Todd, continuing to believe she and Todd could get back together, forcing Todd to bring her along on Christmas Eve) along with allowing Amanda to persist in her belief that Todd was somehow at fault for her being in the orphanage. Andi continues to represent some of the behaviors I find most unappealing in people. But beyond that it was the lack of justice. It was the lack of Andi really and trully being forced to pay for what she had done, from Todd not being able to fully call her out because he had to be somewhat civil to her with Amanda back in the picture, to being able to escape from Mari because of hearing Amanda’s loud scream. It seems like time and again she is able to at least partly hide from what she is done, to escape really and trully having to face up to it. This is by far the closest we’ve come AND the first time it seems like she is actually getting that its not about her.

In fact its one of the reasons Amanda is also not a character I particularly cared for. The way she was able to get away with tormenting Selkie has frustrated me for a long time. There have been periods where i’ve had to walk away from the comic for a few days because it was genuinely painful to watch what was happening unfold so slowly. One of the downsides of comic time, it stretches out these injustices and the suffering of characters something fierce.

Perhaps if the story were able to unfold at a more rapid pace, ala a tv show, my negative feelings towards Andi would not have been able to grow to the degree they have.

I can’t disagree. My feelings for Andi are well established. Despite my willingness to play devil’s advocate for Andi, I am never on her side.

As for Amanda, I can’t help but want to reach out to her. I know her place, hit with so much cruelty that young an age. I know, life isn’t fair, everything is meaningless, it’s all just a big joke played on us. Which is what makes Amanda’s return all the more important.

And yet (even though it happens slowly) watching the characters change and grow is one of the most beautiful things about this comic, and a testament to Dave’s skill as a writer. I wish Hollywood and TVland would hire people as talented as Dave. I’d turn the tube on again.

Good point. We don’t really know for sure that she wasn’t spending any of those holidays with her own mother, but it has been strongly implied that she loved and very much needed the Smiths’ warm family life.