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Apostacy and the Facebook Debate

I hope you find this Facebook exchange as dumbfounding as I do. It all started because I RSVP’d to the “Ordain Women’s Six Discussions Launch!” on May 15th. That same day, someone I don’t know posted below my RSVP saying, “Since Paul warned against hanging out with apostates, we are not going!” Something you should know about me—I don’t like it when people make snap judgments; and I hate bullying, especially ideological bullying. In LDS culture, apostate is a loaded term—even implying someone is apostate can be very offensive. I didn’t see why that person would feel the need to use that term, just because I’d said I was going to listen to the first OW Discussion. So my immediate thought was, “Oh no you didn’t!“

Then I took the next logical step and checked out this person’s FB profile—what do you know, he* spends his time perusing Ordain Women and feminist blogs, “correcting flawed reasoning and false doctrines.” In fact, he’d posted the same “apostate” comment below another woman’s RSVP to the OW event! And with that, it was on. This person had made it their mission to go around making inflammatory statements on the Internet, and, whether he knew it or not, he had just picked a fight with me. Thus began the following Facebook exchange.

Jackie Ball I’m sorry, but there are few authorized messengers of God. I’d check with Church authorities before making that kind of statement. And you don’t seem qualified, either personally or by proper Church authority, to be a judge of your fellow men.

Adam K. Allred True To The Faith: “Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that you should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, you will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout your life.”

Jackie Ball You can try to judge as regards yourself and your relationships Adam K. Allred- but calling someone apostate means you’ve made a judgment on their relationship with God and the Church. Sounds like overstepping one’s bounds (as few judges in Israel can make the determination of one’s worthiness and standing in the LDS Church) and therefore unrighteous judgment to me.

Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Actually Christ taught that we are able to, and should judge, others under the direction of the spirit. That is how we can know who to preach to, and as Paul directed, who we should avoid having communion with. Each individual is entitled to know by personal revelation where apostasy lies, so they can avoid organizations that support it and people who teach it. Sharing those spiritual impressions may not be binding on others, but it does put them on notice to beware, and thus fulfills the command to warn our neighbors.

Jackie Ball I disagree; your words and unjustified judgment do not denote the presence of the Spirit. Moreover, if you truly read the scriptures, such as the Sermon on the Mount, you would know that a disciple of Christ is repeatedly cautioned against fallen man’s natural tendencies to judge your fellow men unrighteously. You’ve admitted your impression may not be binding on others, but even in applying the term “apostates” to an ENTIRE group of people, you’re overreaching your spiritual stewardship as a member of the LDS church and as a disciple of Christ.

Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Disagreement is expected. The Pharisees thought Jesus was the apostate, not them, the brethren who sought to overthrow Joseph in Kirtland, thought Joseph was apostate not them. Apostate persons or organization rarely ever admit their status as such. It is the Holy Spirit that will verify that the OW movement is an apostate movement. Here is what the scriptures really teach: Matthew 7:1-2 JST a clear command to judge righteously. Matthew 7:15-17 you can judge false prophets to be false by their fruits. Moroni 7:16 one purpose we have the spirit is to judge. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, requires judgment to determine our associations. There are hundreds more. Bottom line, before anyone participates in or supports this movement they should seek the spirit, which will warn them of the movement’s true nature and founder. God commands us to love all our neighbors and love means we seek to warn them all. Thus warning all and sharing what the spirit has taught us is completely within the bounds of our spiritual stewardship.

Jackie Ball You read these scriptures about people wrongly judging Christ and Joseph Smith as apostates, and see no caution to yourself to avoid unrighteous judgment? My B.S. detector goes off when I hear someone say “here is what the scriptures ‘really’ teach”, and then use them to gratify their self-serving ideas. What qualifies you to judge the OW members’ hearts, and judge the leaders of this group to be apostate? How is your judgment of other people’s moral worthiness (people whom you do not seem to know personally) righteous and within your stewardship? When have you studied what OW advocates? Have you spoken and gotten to know them? Can’t you see a clear admonition to you in Matthew 7:1-2, Moroni 7:16 to make sure you be truly informed and know the people you are judging? The scriptures actually uniformly urge restraint in judging others, most notably those you cited in Matthew and Moroni, and clarify Christ is the only person who can truly judge a person’s heart. Isa. 11:3-4; Rom. 2:1.

Kristy Money Hi Brother and Sister Shurtleff, Kristy Money here, from SC. I’m so glad you are passionate about the gospel, just like OW supporters are, hopefully we can respectfully dialogue and refrain from throwing around the word apostate. Because we are all just doing our best to follow the Spirit and be good members of the church, even when we disagree.

Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Jackie: It is hypocritical to chide others for “twisting the scriptures to gratify their self serving idea” and to do so by twisting the scriptures to gratify one’s own self serving ideas. The scriptures when read in spiritual context, teach that all of God’s children, every living soul, is entitled to know by revelation from God, if an organization and its supporters are true followers of Jesus or are teaching apostate doctrines. God is qualified to judge OW and its supporters, AND if the perfect God then reveals to me or others that OW is laboring under apostasy, it is God’s judgement and not the persons that you must take issue with. God wants us to know truth and to avoid deception, and so will guide each soul to avoid organizations, movements and their supporters whose actions are contrary to God’s will. Thus the only issue that really remains is whether God has revealed to me the true nature of the OW movement, and if he has, others should take the warning and likewise go to Him to know the truth. Since you admit that Christ is the only one who can judge, then however, he judges you, me and the OW movement, you should be willing to accept it.

Adam K. Allred Kristy: What are they supposed to call this group, if not apostate? People who profess love for the gospel but just happen to advocate positions that are contrary to it? The reference to this group as apostate is not an effort to provoke, but rather to give a warning of what it truly is. They would not be calling it apostate if it were not so obviously rebelling against the church.

Jackie Ball Not so Nina/Keith Shurtleff; my ideas are not self-serving, and I find it interesting you upbraid me for something you yourself are doing! You have judged and insulted me without any basis–according to you, I am a hypocrite AND an apostate. Your spiritual meter is clearly off. If there is hypocrisy, it is in someone who claims to know the “spiritual context” of the scriptures yet ignores the basic admonition to avoid unrighteous judgment and to love your fellow men. I don’t claim to be perfect enough to know God’s judgment of an entire group of people, like OW- yet you do. Your actions are not consistent with someone who could receive such a revelation. And your refusal to acknowledge that the ability to judge someone’s standing in the Church (whether they are apostate) is outside of your sphere of stewardship, astounds me. I see a person with single-minded views, who claims to know the will of God but does not have the spiritual acumen or insight to be able to know His will. Leave such grand proclamations of moral worthiness to the appropriate person–Christ.

Nina AndKeith ShurtleffRestating flawed arguments and misapplication of scripture does not make them any more valid. Our polarized positions are clear for sincere truth seekers to consider. Either Christ, the appropriate judge, has revealed to me by his Holy Spirit that the OW movement and its supporters are suffering under apostasy, or he has not. For obvious reasons Jackie does not believe it, but that does not change my assertions. So now the choice lies with the uncommitted, sincere truth seekers to read both positions and then to prayerfully seek to know the truth of the matter by revelation from God. That is the only real value of such exchanges as this.

Adam K. AllredYou claim that he has judged and insulted you. I don’t believe that either is actually the case, especially the latter. He has simply seen what you are supporting and has told you what the Spirit has revealed unto him – that the OW group is not in good standing with God. You claim that he has insulted you. I may be mistaken, but I do not see an objective to insult by him. His only comment that I feel could be considered insulting is when he call the OW movement apostate. If you are offended by this then perhaps you are one who “taketh the truth to be hard.

You claim that he is a hypocrite because he claims to know spiritual context while exercising unrighteous judgement towards others as well as not loving them. I would argue that it is because he loves you and the OW members that he spends time to dispel false doctrine and malcontent towards God’s current Church here on Earth. It is because he, along with many others, feels the spirit manifest truth that his judgments are not unrighteous. You can claim that he does not feel the Spirit concerning this topic which will slightly discount his words, but this does not make it true. You state that it requires a perfect person to judge the merits of this group. I cannot restrain myself from saying that this is ridiculous. We came here to gain a body, to know good from evil, and to prove our allegiance to that which is good. If someone could not so much as determine whether a group is correct in its doctrinal views then they would surely be unfit to be tested on their choices.“Your actions are not consistent with someone who could receive such a revelation” I don’t know how well you know Bishop Shurtleff, but I personally have found him to be a very charitable man. He isn’t boastful of his righteous actions nor of his service for Christ but instead he lives, as I have seen, as a witness of the truthfulness of the gospel. If there is any person that I know personally who’s actions merit the blessings of revelation, that person would be Bishop Shurtleff.”I see a person with single-minded views, who claims to know the will of God but does not have the spiritual acumen or insight to be able to know His will.” I don’t want to appear to pretend to know how God thinks, but it seems to me that He also has, by your definition, a singleness in mind when it comes to the Gospel. That is, doctrine that is correct, that He has revealed to His prophets here on Earth, and doctrine that is incorrect. I do not believe that He sees the OW’s cause as viable dependent on the number of times He is asked for it to be. He is the enforcer of truth. “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away”(Doctrine and Covenants 1:38) According to this, He has doctrine that is already in place, and it can not be changed by any person who feels “open-minded” enough to challenge it. Continuing on to the next verse: “For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.” Notice that it is the Spirit that is bearing record to men concerning the truth.”Leave such grand proclamations of moral worthiness to the appropriate person–Christ.” What would Christ have us do? He is not currently residing on the Earth, for reasons that should be evident. Yet, I believe that He has made proclamations through those who do listen to the Spirit and through his apostles here on Earth.

Jackie BallOf course I don’t believe your assertions Keith/Nina Shurtleff, because your attitudes and unfamiliarity with the people in this group prove you could not have received this revelation. I am not saying they are inspired, chosen by God, or any other such grand statement. I only took exception to your high-handed, uninformed judgment of the ENTIRE group as apostate. Now I also take exception to your belief that someone who does not believe you are an inspired messenger, must be misapplying scripture. Please carefully choose the labels you apply to people before trolling the internet to make your views known. Thank you for the detailed analysis of my words Adam K. Allred, I’ll do you the respect of disproving your arguments in order. First point: you cannot claim Keith Shurtleff didn’t have an objective to insult me when he has applied the labels of “hypocrite” and “apostate” to me, solely as a supporter of OW and someone who doesn’t agree with Keith’s self-serving interpretation of the scriptures. Example: “God is qualified to judge OW and its supporters, AND if the perfect God then reveals to me or others that OW is laboring under apostasy, it is God’s judgement and not the persons that you must take issue with.” Silly Keith- not only am I not a member of Ordain Women, I don’t advocate for women to have the priesthood (although I believe they could someday); if such views are “apostate” then here is proof he has sadly, sadly misjudged me. How could I take the “truth” to be hard when his words are not true, and based on false beliefs about me and my character? I don’t feel OW to be apostate, but we’ll move on to your next point: I can’t know Keith Shurtleff does not feel the Spirit concerning this topic. How can he receive a spiritual revelation that is outside of the sphere of his stewardship, and of people whom he does not know personally? The General Authorities have repeatedly cautioned against making judgments based on limited information. Keith Shurtleff has not given any evidence, other than his feelings, that he can know this group is apostate. How can you judge someone you don’t know? That is patently obvious to me, which brings me to your third point: I claimed it takes a perfect person to judge this group. You misstated me; I specifically said Keith should leave judgments to Christ, but my main point was Keith Shurtleff was not qualified to make that judgment. Dallin H. Oaks gave a wonderful talk about judgments, “Judge Not and Judging”. I agree with Elder Oaks’ talk, and never took exception to Keith’s idea that we can be inspired by the Spirit in making judgments about how to direct our own lives. But Dallin Oaks specifically cautions, “we should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities” and we should “refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts”. Bishop or not, “charitable” or not, Keith is not entitled to label a group or a person apostate; I’m not within his stewardship, neither are the OW leaders. He has not proved to have adequate knowledge of the people or positions to be able to judge. And none of his actions on this post have showed any of that charity or humility you claim for him (point four). Point five: don’t quote scriptures and ignore their context. God constantly gives our leaders revelation to direct the Church. If his doctrine was already fully & correctly established, why, only through questioning by LDS leaders, did we subsequently receive the vision of the three degrees of glory (D&C 76) and the EXTENSION of the priesthood to members of African descent (Official Declaration 2). If anything, these experiences show me OW’s cause can be as viable as others; which is why I say, again, the priesthood can be extended to women, even if I don’t advocate the change right now. Look back again at my posts, you will see I originally only took exception to Keith Shurtleff’s broad misstatement of OW and their supporters as “apostate”. His subsequent comments only re-confirmed my opinion that Keith Shurtleff cannot have received a mandate from God to tell the world his ill-formed judgment.

[*If you’ve made it to the end of this FB exchange, you know why I believe this was the husband writing; although either spouse, or both, could have chimed in.]

I know I should’ve turned the other cheek; I clearly did nothing to convince him he was wrong in labeling me and Ordain Women apostate. But something inside of me just feels so good at standing up to him.

Goodness gracious, these Shurtleff people were so stupid. It is clear that division is increasing withing the church and some people are letting anger to posses them. Yeah, some angry, nasty mormons those Shurtleff people.