Breaking the chains, winning the games, and saving Western Civilization.

Friday, November 9, 2012

Alpha Mail: women can't follow logic?

Szopen quixotically asserts that women are as amenable to criticism as men while being totally incapable of logic:

The
females are scared off from HUS not because someone challenges their
beliefs, but because of the tone - I've seen tons of angry males going
into HUS and blaming females for everything.

Jesus Christ. I'm
reading the comments here and I think some of commenters are really
nuts. In short, some of commenters would try to convince females, by a
way of logic, that females are inferior (they should submit to males
etc) and they are surprised or even angry that females won't listen.

There
is a fundamental disconnect in the first statement. It is true there
are a few hurt, bitter, and angry men of lower socio-sexual rank commenting
at HUS and blaming women for lying to them, for deceiving them, and for creating
a sexual marketplace in which they have tended to lose out. But the tone of their comments is not why
women are cowed into silence at HUS or anywhere else. I have
personally witnessed, on numerous occasions, how a female commenter at HUS will make a
factual statement, then refuse to defend it or even continue to involve
herself in the discussion after that statement is challenged, regardless of the manner in which it is challenged. The tone
of the challenge is completely irrelevant and it is the mere fact of the
challenge that causes these commenters to turn tail and run away.

I am not the only one who recognizes this. Susan obviously recognizes it as well, which is why she polices the male challenges to female comments much more firmly than the female challenges to male comments. And she is well-advised to do so, as without doing so, she will continue to lose female commenters.

The
reason I recognize the behavioral pattern so readily is that precisely the same thing happens at Vox
Popoli, although it is usually mid-witted men of the anklebiting variety
who behave in this manner. The behavior is so predictable, in fact, that I was able to design a blog rule based upon it which has the effect of silencing those
who are disinclined to support their questionable assertions. The salient difference is that Susan wants such commenters whereas I want nothing to do with them.

I
also find Szopen's assertion that the commenters are really nuts
because they are attempting to convince women of something by logic to
be more than a little amusing. This is an implicit admission of the
very concept with which Szopen appears to disagree, the idea that
women are inferior. While one can argue whether the syllogism that
leads to the conclusion that women should submit to men is logically
correct or not, to think it is crazy to take a logical approach to
convincing women of something is indicative of a belief in female
inferiority far more extreme than any conventional religious doctrine.

Even
though I recommend men utilize rhetoric rather than dialectic when
attempting to persuade women and I'm not surprised that many women would
prefer to see, hear, and think no logic rather than consider an
argument that reaches an unpalatable conclusion, I would not dream of
claiming that one would have to be insane to believe that some women are
capable of following basic logic.

237 comments:

It should be a Red Pill maxim if it isn't already. You cannot argue or debate with women. Even when a woman engages, her method of turning the tables is emotional. I used to marvel at how my wife could twist anything around to her side. No matter how sensible or logical I was.

It should be a Red Pill maxim if it isn't already. You cannot argue or debate with women.

No, because it is not true. You can do so, you can even successfully do so. But you have to either use rhetoric to persuade them or dialectic to overpower them.

Your problem with your wife is that you tried to use logic to appeal to her rather than crushing her with it. Women enjoy being seen as stupid and intellectually inept even less than they enjoy being wrong.

Crush every evasion and follow every defensive retreat. Be ruthless and show no emotion. Women are eminently practical and will quickly drop tactics that simply don't work. In fact, they learn quicker than rhetoric-limited men.

At the risk of patting myself on the back: I'm usually pretty good at framing my argument in a way that offends people as little as possible. A while back I posted something about the red pill on the kind of forum where people can vote posts up or down. It was a forum that wasn't normally about that topic, so I larded it up well with disclaimers and explanations to walk them up to the conclusion slowly. My central claim was the harsh truth, but I wrapped it in a lot of sugar to help it go down.

At about the same moment, someone else posted the same basic concept, but bluntly, with the attitude of, "This is how it is, so stop lying to yourselves and get with the program."

Several people accused the other poster of being a sexist trogdolyte, and his post got voted way down (I think some people wanted it deleted). My post -- making the same basic point -- was voted up and got a couple of compliments. So how you present your argument makes a huge difference in how many people you can convince -- and how many will stick around to hear the whole thing in the first place.

And yet. Even when I do all that, if I leave any opening for a NAWALT type response, I'll get them, especially from women. There will usually be someone who accuses me of being hateful. I've seen entire comment threads where everyone is trying to handle a difficult subject with delicacy, making sure not to make it personal, and people will react by calling it vitriol or hate and condemn the entire group. That's depressing, especially since framing your argument so carefully takes a lot more work than just dumping it out there.

The truth is, most people aren't looking to have their beliefs challenged. Tweaked, maybe, but not contradicted head-on. A woman looking for dating advice wants to hear that she should wait a couple more (or less) dates before sex, or make a certain kind of checklist -- not that her entire worldview is upside down and she needs to start her life over from scratch. If 99 posts out of 100 are careful to say nothing to offend her, that 1 harsh one will still send her running -- partly because she suspects a lot of the others are secretly harboring the same harshness. (Much like the way a Todd Akin can be used to make people think all members of his party share his views but are better at hiding them.) So no matter how careful you are, at some point you have to tell the truth, however sugarcoated, and then people will freak. If you want a biblical example, take John 6:60. When Jesus got down to brass tacks and told His disciples what it would take to gain everlasting life, people who had left jobs and family behind to follow Him, who had seen Him do freaking miracles, said, "Whoa, I can't handle that; I'm outta here." If He couldn't (and didn't try to) frame the Truth in a way that everyone would accept it, what chance do we have?

There's a lot you can do to make the truth as palatable as possible, including rhetoric, personal anecdotes, and disclaimers that allow the listener to stand outside the issue. Women can follow logic, but you have to back well away from the dangerous truths, start with something they'll gladly agree with, and then build up to the harsher stuff step-by-step. And you have to accept that no matter how careful you are, some people are going to react poorly. If you get more thumbs up than down, you're doing pretty well.

Gloria Steinem, goofball extraordinaire, once said that "Logic is in the mind of the logician." To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure what she meant by that. I'm not sure she knows what she means by it.

What is your opinion of David Hume's assertion that reason alone cannot spur action?

Could it be that the great change in guys worldview, induced by knowledge of game, that we see all over the manosphere comes from the feeling of betrayal by society and not from the realization that the current rules of society are to their detriment. In that case, when trying to convince women to change their worldview, both to logically establish the alternative and induce the emotions necessary to act are required.

Personally I have found some evidence for Hume's assertion; even when I have managed to logically establish a much less idealized view of women among my omega and delta friends, I have over the years yet to notice any change in behavior towards women on my friends part.

Gloria Steinem, goofball extraordinaire, once said that "Logic is in the mind of the logician." To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure what she meant by that. I'm not sure she knows what she means by it.

She actually said logic is in the eye of the logician. It's really just a restatement of Max Horkheimer's assertion that logic is not independent of content. In other words, they're trying to undercut the power of logic by making it seem subjective. Horkheimer was a Marxist and one of the architects of critical theory, so no surprise that Steinem would parrot this nonsense.

Women attempting masculinity are going to be inferior to masculine men. We don't inherently possess the tools to compete. (Need I say NAWALT? The one or two women who can actually compete in this metric are complete outliers and prove nothing but the rule). Feminine women are not partaking in the competition. Men and women are different and competition between them is a false metric.

Part of the reason (most) women cannot follow logic is because they refuse to perceive uncomfortable facts. Therefore the math breaks down the line.

But in reality anyone who refuses to acknowledge uncomfortable facts cannot operate logically on these same issues. Regardless of gender. I know plenty of grown up male engineers who cannot do shit once they are reacting emotionally to a sensible subject.

Like politics. Family. Religion.

* * *

Part of what makes a woman healthy, be it alone or in a social group is her ability to push out the undesired and keep in the desired. When women do their networking / chit chat / consensus thing, they wire and rewire this net where they try to gather resources, or, "the goods" while pushing out, excluding or suppressing the bad. Shaming, judgement, indignation, pride, etc are the processes they use. So pushing out and pulling in are the main skills and these are healthy. And solipism.

So. Get a woman and present her with stuff that doesnt feel good and she'll push it out. Push it to the stratosphere or if it clicks, it will be pulled in into her depths. While all of this is going on, logic has no place.

After the stuff has been pulled in and the emotional experience has settled down she might be able to sort the logic out of it. But there´s little use for logic here too, because the stuff has been assimilated already - now it's a fact. It doesnt have to be connected to the other stuff inside of her via mechanical logical links. It just has to belong inside.

I once convinced a woman that abortion really was the wrong thing to do. She self identified as Christian so the road to that conclusion was a bit shorter than otherwise. It wasn't too long after that she got pregnant, got married and gave birth to a son. Though it wasn't long before she got a divorce.

I can't be certain she had obtained abortions in the years previous but she was sexually active for a decade or so before we had that conversation and even married once before but she had no children up to that time.

It has been many years since then but I do not remember using a rhetorical argument. Though it did seem to be more important to her that I believed it rather than whether the argument was valid on its own. I would have sworn at the time that I saw regret and remorse in her eyes as the truth of my argument took hold.

Yes you can argue a case and have it change a woman's mind but the argument has to be calibrated to the woman and the moment. Which sounds surprising like many game techniques. I don't know how many times I've read the word calibrate in regards to employing game.

"Crush every evasion and follow every defensive retreat. Be ruthless and show no emotion. Women are eminently practical and will quickly drop tactics that simply don't work. In fact, they learn quicker than rhetoric-limited men."

VD

I find this to be true with my wife.

Often, I will start "reviewing" the facts of the case, (so that we can come to a conclusion we are both okay with) and her body language will show that she is happier to accept my conclusion than her own...she'll say ... "I didn't really think about it that way" or something similar.

The fissure between (don't know the scientific term) the two hemispheres of the brain is less pronounced in women than it is in men. Women therefore can mentally move back and forth between logic and creativity/conceptual thought more easily than us.

The problem with this is that they therefore have a harder time telling whether or not they're being reasonable.

Men can be every bit as emotional as women, but men can tell when they're not being logical. Women move back and forth between reason and solipsism and think it's all reason.

They'll use logic when it suits a part of their arguement, flip to some subjective nonsense, and then back to logic and have no idea that that's what they've done. Hence the need for rhetoric to persuade them.

Here is an important crux that many women today do not, will not or perhaps in some cases, can not understand. Women will happily engage in trying to prove that men are inferior to women in someway, but let men imply or *gasp* state outright that women are inferior to men in any way and the war is on. Personally, I blame feminism and specifically they feminization of the church for failing to teach both men and especially women, this truth.

"Personally, I blame feminism and specifically they feminization of the church for failing to teach both men and especially women, this truth."

Women will do this regardless of the culture. It will be worse in a traditional society. They just love to compare notes.

Although it hasn't been discussed here, this post reflect those of traditional and conservative men. Not all men look at logic in the same way. For example, Obama was looked up as winning the last 2 debates. The public has decided that Obama won. In retrospect, Romney didn't counter on a point by point rebuttal since he employed a different strategy of appealing to the voter. Nonetheless, how did Obama win if the facts he employed was false? He would appear that not arguing with Obama constitutes acceptance of such wrong facts. The media obliged.

"a female commenter at HUS will make a factual statement, then refuse to defend it or even continue to involve herself in the discussion after that statement is challenged"

She will still say you're wrong. While men should certainly change women to their benefit, woman want to know how the facts can benefit them. The HUS women want to live for the moment. They don't have a long-term plan.

"She wants to keep those readers, so she is well-advised to cater to them. Because I don't want them, I have an incentive to drive them away."

I understand that much; what I'm asking is what makes getting that 'well-advised'. Just wanting something doesn't make getting it 'well-advised', at least not by any meaning of 'well-advised' sensible to me. What do you mean by it?

This kind of discussion is why it is good to visit this site.It improves my marital relations as I pick up refinements, and better ways to deal with the inherent solipsism of my wife, and teach my son the ways of manhood.

No; you better take a closer look at your projection, kiddo. Because if she really means what she says about her goals:

"Relationships have never been more complicated or elusive than they are today. Hooking Up Smart aims to help people figure out how to navigate the hostile terrain of the contemporary SMP (sexual marketplace). I support both women and men in their search for meaningful relationships by providing strategic insight, guidance, and perspective as they manage their social and sexual interactions,"

then no, actually, it's not wise or prudent or properly deliberated of her to censor such useful input and feedback in favor of pandering to such commenters.

That in turn is because as a rule, people who behave like that don't participate on forums in order to grow or change or improve; they do it to exploit an online community for the attention and drama and power-over-others that they can't get in their local lives.

Therefore, so what if she loses female commenters like that? Were they or anyone else ever really going to meaningfully benefit from their posting at HUS? Not in my experience. In fact, if anything, she and the HUS community are better off without them ITFP because of how they decrease the community's communication value.

Additionally, going by the above goals, one would expect a corresponding attitude that such people far more need to learn how to deal with having their nonsense challenged than the challengers need to learn to censor themselves. Is the latter going to make the challengers' trip through the SMP easier, or harder? And will the former make it easier or harder for the exploiters?

And are those rhetorical questions with obvious answers that put the lie to 'well-advised'?

You said (emphasis added):

"I have personally witnessed, on numerous occasions, how a female commenter at HUS will make a factual statement, then refuse to defend it or even continue to involve herself in the discussion after that statement is challenged, regardless of the manner in which it is challenged. *The tone of the challenge is completely irrelevant and it is the mere fact of the challenge* that causes these commenters to turn tail and run away."

So that's why I still have a hard time believing that you would consider lopsidedly punishing the challengers while rewarding the exploiters to be 'well-advised' behavior congruent with HUS's stated goals.

Overall, that's mostly why I consider 'well-advised' to be several sigma more virtuous and heavy-hitting a term than is appropriate to that context. Milder, weaker terms such as 'correct' or 'appropriate' itself would have been better usages.

AFAICT, it's only 'well-advised' if Susan's really just in it for the ad revenue hits and/or her own similar personal insecure ego gratification. Or possibly something else I'm missing, but those two are the big bin most likely reasons. In that case, the point of HUS isn't really to help young people so much as it's to help Susan, and in this case, at their expense. Then, perhaps, it might be arguably be 'well-advised', albeit in a very limited, short-run context, and moreover one rather inconsistent with the Christian principles we've often seen you espouse.

But I've gotten the impression from other posts that you're deliberately trying to not go there-ish with her, so I was courteously avoiding it myself, right up until you doubled down on the AMOG attempts to piss in my wheaties with snarky pre-teen put-downs about my vocabulary.

I've gotten the impression from other posts that you're deliberately trying to not go there-ish with her, so I was courteously avoiding it myself, right up until you doubled down on the AMOG attempts to piss in my wheaties with snarky pre-teen put-downs about my vocabulary.

@VDYou have seemingly not understood me. I have not argued, that you can't use a logic with females. I have argued, that you cannot use logic to convince females that they are inferior (because they won't even listen).

I don't know why you could twist my statement, which is quite clear in my opinion, to mean something entirely different. Can't you use logic, VD?

In my experience, the logic is useless with great majority of both males and females. I am arguing that you can't start discussion with offending your opponent and expect he will listen to your arguments. Consider this example:

Joe is smart, Sue made something very stupid.

Joe: Sue, you are stupid. Since you are making many times stupid things, and higher ratio of making stupid things is a definition of stupid, you are stupid.

What will be reaction of Sue? Sue: F* off!

If you expect that Sue would react in any other way, then you have incapable to reliabl predict other people emotions, that is: dumb.

I think you have problem understanding this, because many highly intelligent males are completely devoid of understanding emotions. I met literally thousands of males who were surprised why their blunt and logical way of thinking does not convince people.

Basically if you enrich your logic with offensive and aggressive remarks, then you won't convince your opponent, unless he is cold, logical male, which is about 1% of males I think, or cold, logical female, which is about 0.1% of females.

I have the impression that some people think here that all males are logical and rational, and females are irrational and illogical. It's simply not true. Most of males and vast majority of females are not logical. If you have different impression, it may be because you have very atypical friends. In my experience, both males and females can be logical as long, as it does not pertain to them personally.

"Szopen quixotically asserts that women are as amenable to criticism as men while being totally incapable of logic:"

Because I have stated "you can't use X to achieve goal Y with females", and you interpreted this as "females can't use/understand X".

Now, I expect that you will refuse to admit that you have made an error, but I wonder, what kind of logic you will try to use to prove that from "you can't use X to goal Y" you can deduce "you can't use X".

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Your beta species is both brutish and primitive, your arguments thick with thinly veiled rhetoric. you make a mockery of the universe and our interplanetary alliances- your simplistic dichotomies are laughable, your male crumudgeonry obvious, your cockshrivillary a result. your mastery of self touch is perhaps your only trait. bow down to our mastery.Intergalatic Alpha females and Alpha males

after much study our superior species have come to a truth …that after several decades of self touch being the only sex these inferior beta men have, it leaves them confused, angry, lashing out like a blind man in a strip joint…or a hungry man in a little Debbie’s plant. your simple minds must understand this logic.Intergalatic A’s

women- stop attempting communication with these subspecies- they have hairy palms and have gone blind from many attempts at self massage- their leader DalCock, as we understand, is masterbating at this point and is too busy to approve our comments- we will wait patiently while he finishes masterbating to gay porn and send our gentle reminders periodically.

Mary Belenky, et al. Women’s ways of knowing.“Women distrust logic, analysis, abstraction, and even language itself coming from a man, because they see these as methods belonging to men. “ (BP -Women do not want to listen to logic, syllogism, categories, universals, implication, inference because that is a man’s understanding of reality. He is forcing his way of understanding onto her. She knows differently because her way of knowing is different.)“Truth is an intuitive reaction, experienced -not thought out.”“Truth comes from within the person and can negate external answers--women become their own authorities”BP: I.e. It doesn’t matter what a man says. If he is trying to be rational, he is just trying to talk her out of what she knows from intuition and being the “knower” experiencing it. To a woman, experience, or even empathy to someone else’s experience are superior to men’s logic. Women hate generalizations, categories, universals, even though knowledge is impossible without them. Even to say something as true as “All men are men, and all women are women” bothers them and leaves a bad taste in their mouth because “Everyone is different, and every situation is different.” (NAWALT, snowflaking) To a woman, generalities are incomplete. The woman wants to be in it to be able to understand it. Anything a man tries to logically deduce without being a part of it is only “assuming”. She sees herself in the situation and therefore believes her intuition is greater than his logic..

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