USPA has a recommendation that you should have 200 jumps before you jump with a camera, and that is an excellent recommendation. Skydivers MAY have enough experience at 200 jumps to do camera (although most do not) - but before 200 jumps it's pretty much a guaranteed bad idea.

There are some other indications that it's a bad idea to jump with a camera, and you may want to reconsider your decision to jump one:

1) You can't stand up all your landings but you have learned how to fall to protect the camera.

2) A lot of your videos from doing POV bigway video are of excellent funnels. You are positive you're not contributing to them but they always seem to happen near you.

3) You spend more time trying to figure out where to put your camera during the exit jamup than where to put your body.

4) You can't really remember the dive until you look at your own video.

5) You post stills from your video to Facebook before packing or debriefing.

6) While in the pattern you fly with your camera pointed at your friend's canopy.

If any of these happen to you, you may want to reconsider jumping with a camera - especially when you're not doing video, you're just a participant on the dive.

USPA has a recommendation that you should have 200 jumps before you jump with a camera, and that is an excellent recommendation. Skydivers MAY have enough experience at 200 jumps to do camera (although most do not) - but before 200 jumps it's pretty much a guaranteed bad idea.

There are some other indications that it's a bad idea to jump with a camera, and you may want to reconsider your decision to jump one:

1) You can't stand up all your landings but you have learned how to fall to protect the camera.

2) A lot of your videos from doing POV bigway video are of excellent funnels. You are positive you're not contributing to them but they always seem to happen near you.

3) You spend more time trying to figure out where to put your camera during the exit jamup than where to put your body.

4) You can't really remember the dive until you look at your own video.

5) You post stills from your video to Facebook before packing or debriefing.

6) While in the pattern you fly with your camera pointed at your friend's canopy.

If any of these happen to you, you may want to reconsider jumping with a camera - especially when you're not doing video, you're just a participant on the dive.

as for the camers, when i started thinking about jumping i started to look at different camera mounts options etc... (i love photography and i make part of my living doing product shots)...but didnt even occurred to me how dangerous it can be to a newbie, and that it will take a lot of time and experience before one can strap gopro.

as for the camers, when i started thinking about jumping i started to look at different camera mounts options etc... (i love photography and i make part of my living doing product shots)...but didnt even occurred to me how dangerous it can be to a newbie, and that it will take a lot of time and experience before one can strap gopro.

Great list, but you are fighting a losing battle against technology, stupidity, and the great world of social media.

20 years ago "jumping a camera" involved a helmet with 40 pounds of gear. We didn't need rules, only truly dedicated masochists got into camera work.

Then Handicams, 8 mm, miniDV, etc. and cameras are down to a pound or two. Today it's the GoPro. Fight it all you want, the next step will be a clip on device the size of a coin sending data wirelessly to a receiver in your pocket.

It's not 5-10 years away, it's possible now - there just isn't a big enough market yet. Wait for the next Facebook - "MeTube: All my life, on the Internet, all the time!" - and you won't be able to tell people they can't have their camera on all the time. How do you regulate that?

I think it is (sadly) unavoidable that focusing on the dive and ignoring the camera will move from common sense to BSRs to part of the FJC in the next few years. So maybe instead of telling newbies they're not allowed to jump cameras, we work on teaching them how to do it safely. That's how everything else in this sport has evolved. Remember "no square canopies with less than 200 jumps?

Great list, but you are fighting a losing battle against technology, stupidity, and the great world of social media.

20 years ago "jumping a camera" involved a helmet with 40 pounds of gear. We didn't need rules, only truly dedicated masochists got into camera work.

Then Handicams, 8 mm, miniDV, etc. and cameras are down to a pound or two. Today it's the GoPro. Fight it all you want, the next step will be a clip on device the size of a coin sending data wirelessly to a receiver in your pocket.

It's not 5-10 years away, it's possible now - there just isn't a big enough market yet. Wait for the next Facebook - "MeTube: All my life, on the Internet, all the time!" - and you won't be able to tell people they can't have their camera on all the time. How do you regulate that?

I think it is (sadly) unavoidable that focusing on the dive and ignoring the camera will move from common sense to BSRs to part of the FJC in the next few years. So maybe instead of telling newbies they're not allowed to jump cameras, we work on teaching them how to do it safely. That's how everything else in this sport has evolved. Remember "no square canopies with less than 200 jumps?

20 years ago "jumping a camera" involved a helmet with 40 pounds of gear. We didn't need rules, only truly dedicated masochists got into camera work.

Then Handicams, 8 mm, miniDV, etc. and cameras are down to a pound or two. Today it's the GoPro. Fight it all you want, the next step will be a clip on device the size of a coin sending data wirelessly to a receiver in your pocket.

I think it is (sadly) unavoidable that focusing on the dive and ignoring the camera will move from common sense to BSRs to part of the FJC in the next few years. So maybe instead of telling newbies they're not allowed to jump cameras, we work on teaching them how to do it safely. That's how everything else in this sport has evolved. Remember "no square canopies with less than 200 jumps?

Hi, I see your points, & your much higher experience in the sport. You're making the Sex Ed argument that kids have this neat new toy. They're going to play w/them... BUT, they have to have at least tacit approval from the DZO to jump a camera @ <200 jumps. I jump at three different DZs. I'd be confronted by a S&TA very quickly at any of them if I tried jumping a camera. I remember another thread where a student was allowed to jump a GoPro w/the DZO's & his AFFI's blessings (?!) in Hollister. Isn't a DZ like that the rare exception? X number of fatalities in X number of years, & the FAA will shut them down. So, DZOs have a vested interest in not having some Newb bounce trying to get the shot.

Yes, things change w/the times. Changing to large square canopies was a safer way of doing things, though. The downsizing is the problem w/that. Big or small, Newbies jumping cameras is never safer. The means to control this behavior are readily available. "Follow the house rules, or jump somewhere else." Or, are there far too many Hollisters out there?

Sex Ed is a good analogy. There are still a LOT of people who think abstinence only is a good policy. We all know where that leads. The other extreme is equally unacceptable to the vast majority of people; I'm not about to give my kids lessons in how to use condoms and then turn them loose. The right answer is a combination of guidance and education, and access to the right means to help so that breaking the rules doesn't lead to death (AIDS, abortions, or skydivers killing themselves). I wouldn't call this "tacit approval", it's "I really don't approve but I don't want to see you mess up your life when a little advice could help you survive".

By the way, the FAA does not close down DZs, for breaking BSRs, you need to break the FARs, and even then they will fine the owner/operator and ground airplanes but they don't directly close DZs. And your facts on Hollister are badly garbled - you are mixing details from 2 or 3 separate events. Let's keep this discussion polite, as Bill started it, and not get into pointing fingers at specific DZs. I like your general points.

Kids can play w/their other toys anywhere. They can only play w/their GoPros at the DZO's house, in plain view. DZOs set the house rules.

I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

USPA has a recommendation that you should have 200 jumps before you jump with a camera, and that is an excellent recommendation. Skydivers MAY have enough experience at 200 jumps to do camera (although most do not) - but before 200 jumps it's pretty much a guaranteed bad idea.

There are some other indications that it's a bad idea to jump with a camera, and you may want to reconsider your decision to jump one:

1) You can't stand up all your landings but you have learned how to fall to protect the camera.

2) A lot of your videos from doing POV bigway video are of excellent funnels. You are positive you're not contributing to them but they always seem to happen near you.

3) You spend more time trying to figure out where to put your camera during the exit jamup than where to put your body.

4) You can't really remember the dive until you look at your own video.

5) You post stills from your video to Facebook before packing or debriefing.

6) While in the pattern you fly with your camera pointed at your friend's canopy.

If any of these happen to you, you may want to reconsider jumping with a camera - especially when you're not doing video, you're just a participant on the dive.

7) Your video tells all - your track lasts 3 seconds - up the wind line, no wave-off, no air scan just pull, after opening the first thing you do is look up to stow your slider, then look at each toggle while fumbling to insert your fingers, then look down for the DZ, then your alti, etc. - good thing you have that special force field where nothing can hit you up there in the big ole sky

I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

It doesn't matter how many fatalities a DZ has to the FAA, as long as they're following the FAR's. The FAA can only take such action if FAR's are broken. And then it's usually against a pilot or aircraft, and not the drop zone.

What closes drop zones is the expense of lawsuits, and fatalities can bring those on. But that's civil court action and finances, not federal government edicts.

Sorry for the thread drift. Get back on track now.

In reply to:

If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

The FAA might send an inspector to check things like reserve repacks, but since there is no FAR against anyone wearing a camera, no matter how inexperienced, they have no authority to take any action for that reason.

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each. Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ. They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly. One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it. At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each. Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ. They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly. One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it. At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.

That's awesome, I'm sure that main opening hurt like a MoFo Stupid should be painful

Awesome indeed, seeing the main canopy split apart like that. That was a plot twist that I didn't expect!

It shows how the stresses on a canopy can be really weird during an out of sequence opening --- although the result was extremely unusual. Maybe the canopy was also older with a weaker center cell.

The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

That video could almost use a thread of its own.

I had to stop several people, or at least try to stop them, from buying matching main and reserves. They would ask why. I'd offer, "What if a canopy opens unexpectedly, malfunctions, and you then pull your cutaway handle. And it happens to be your reserve that opened but you couldn't tell the difference? You just detached your last potentially good canopy." They would go .

I don't see original ravens with bikini sliders because I choose not to pack them anymore. The bikini sliders were an "optional" refit but I wouldn't pack an original Raven without one.

The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

That video could almost use a thread of its own.

I had to stop several people, or at least try to stop them, from buying matching main and reserves. They would ask why. I'd offer, "What if a canopy opens unexpectedly, malfunctions, and you then pull your cutaway handle. And it happens to be your reserve that opened but you couldn't tell the difference? You just detached your last potentially good canopy." They would go .

I don't see original ravens with bikini sliders because I choose not to pack them anymore. The bikini sliders were an "optional" refit but I wouldn't pack an original Raven without one.

Ya know what...I never thought of that.

ALL my rigs have matching main & reserves....

Doing demonstrations, it there is a malfunction we chop and the Show goes on, usually no one knows the difference.

I'm definitely gonna add a paragraph or two to our team handbook about making sure what's over your head prior to cutting away.

I know you want matching canopies and want the show to go on with a reserve but maybe you need to come up with something to tell them apart. Yes you can figure it out, but do you want to have to look at your harness with a high speed malfunction?

Three suggestions. Different color sliders comes to mind. Still you might not see the slider if it's a bag lock/streamer. Different color toggles. They might be different now but make them distinctive (you can get custom ones made) and make sure everyone KNOWS what they are for each. Maybe even custom/different color main risers. Probably the one thing you can see easiest.

And everyone might want to do identification drills in a hanging harness. Even the best jumpers might get a reserve over their head when they least expect it.

The current manufacturer of a popular pilot rig came to the DZ with a brand new Northern lite in 1981 or so. Both the cutaway and reserve handles were identical soft pillows. Being a smart assed newbie I asked how he could tell them apart. He said he knew which was which. Of course in those days which side was which was NOT standardized. Hmm, I actually have that rig downstairs.

Three suggestions. Different color sliders comes to mind. Still you might not see the slider if it's a bag lock/streamer. Different color toggles. They might be different now but make them distinctive (you can get custom ones made) and make sure everyone KNOWS what they are for each. Maybe even custom/different color main risers. Probably the one thing you can see easiest.

In reply to:

Currently all three are in 'play'.

The reserve sliders have the coffee can size hole in the middle, the reserve risers are red with red toggles...main risers are blue with yellow toggles.

BUT as you mentioned, that may not be as obvious under stress as would be say, a single color reserve canopy...Hummm.

Definitely food for thought.

The thing that's got ME scratching my head is we've been having same color combos for almost 30 years...1st time I've been presented with a reason that might not be the best idea...and now it seems obvious.

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each. Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ. They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly. One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.

In this case, having zero skill and experience probably helped both of these jumpers. If Mr Backfly was able to stick the transition, and actually stay in his slot (backflying under his buddy) the main would be been in his buddies face.

It is cute how he tries to collapse the reserve slider. It's another example of newbies completely missing the point. Do he really expect to stow the slider? Seeing that he just had an accidental deployment that literally split a canopy in two, is the reserve slider really the first thing on your mind? How about a minunte to shit yourself and think about what just happened?

How about a minute to shit yourself and think about what just happened?

I agree with you on the fact of him trying to stow his slider, but I think you gotta keep your cool while on the air, he can shit his pants all he wants on the ground and re-think about all the stupid things he did, but while in the air there is nothing safer than a clear calm mind, for oneself.

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each. Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ. They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly. One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it. At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.

Am I reading this right? Two jumpers, EACH with less than 20 jumps, were allowed to do RW WITH EACH OTHER???

if it's going to move in that direction it could be best to make it THREE hundred jumps... no kidding

no denying that our sport is a Visual Paradise !! and that is part of what draws us to it... It is very easy to get caught up in todays world of technology and a now now now approach to just about anything... The value and importance of a certain amount of delayed gratification has become a lost concept..

How about "amount of time" in the sport?? Does That factor in??

It takes a lot longer to develop aerial AND canopy skills, than folks like to admit..to get to that elusive "2nd Nature" that everyone talks about...in order to "add a camera(s) to the mix " and that's a fact...

For the rare few,, 200 jumps might do it but for most it takes alot longer. I hit it, by about 1,000 jumps and added video around 1,700 hahaha.. Some had fewer jumps. some many more..

I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

It doesn't matter how many fatalities a DZ has to the FAA, as long as they're following the FAR's. The FAA can only take such action if FAR's are broken. And then it's usually against a pilot or aircraft, and not the drop zone.

What closes drop zones is the expense of lawsuits, and fatalities can bring those on. But that's civil court action and finances, not federal government edicts.

Sorry for the thread drift. Get back on track now.

In reply to:

If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

The FAA might send an inspector to check things like reserve repacks, but since there is no FAR against anyone wearing a camera, no matter how inexperienced, they have no authority to take any action for that reason.

The FAA has the catchall FARs Part 91.13 and 105.5 that they could use against the pilot and skydivers when nothing else fits.

This topic has been interesting to me for the past couple years. Compared to many of you I'm new to skydiving (a bit over 4 years now w/ about 450 jumps) so I'm not posting with any illusion that I'm an expert or a pro. BUT, I first jumped with a side mount camera when I had just over 100 jumps and never once did it affect my performance in the sky (in terms of being altitude aware, situational awareness, landings, etc.). As some of the posts in this thread state, cameras are smaller and cheaper than ever before so the idea that new skydiver aren't' going to strap a camera to their head is no different than abstinence only sex ed. I'm a USPA coach with hopes to one day be an AFF instructor so my curiosity stems from a mentor perspective...I just don't have a strong aversion to flying a camera at 75/100 jumps if you've shown that you're a competent, aware skydiver. Am I missing something?? I think that REQUIRING 300 skydives before you're allowed to jump with a camera is kind of ridiculous...I've been in the air with D-license jumpers who scare the hell out of me so #s are very misleading.

BUT, I first jumped with a side mount camera when I had just over 100 jumps and never once did it affect my performance in the sky (in terms of being altitude aware, situational awareness, landings, etc.)

I find that hard to believe. Because I've SEEN lower jump number skydivers in the plane and in the air with a camera, and they have NO CLUE what they're missing around them. So yeah, from their perspective, they would say they have no issues whatsoever. The rest of the load however might disagree on that

I guess I wasn't clear in what I was trying to get across. My point is that if you are unable to wear a camera and maintain your situational awareness after 100 skydives, you're going to be unaware during lots of free fall circumstances (going for that last dock, geeking out for someone else's camera, trying to coach a student, etc.) The physical demands of wearing a modern digital camera are almost negligible...so my comment about "am I missing something" was meant to ask "is there something other than situational awareness that is at issue?". By the way, if this is such a tired, over discussed topic on these threads than why are you still reading them and posting? I noticed an interesting heading...read it...and made a post. Next time I'll be sure to research all the years of previous threads so I don't bother people like you (actually no I won't because that's the point of a forum, to discuss things)

I maintain that the numbers game is counter productive. I know jumpers w/ nearly 1000 skydives who are far less competent and safe in the sky then others who have less than 300. Attitude, ability, focus, awareness are not solely based on who many times you've been in free fall.

Attitude, ability, focus, awareness are not solely based on how many times you've been in free fall.

In reply to:

Absolutely...BUT it definitely is a significant factor.

Another is time in the sport, if someone really wanted to they can fairly easily knock out 100 jumps in a month, they are more current than a jumper taking a year to make that 100, but are they a safer more knowledgeable skydiver?

Building the necessary skill set to safely jump with a camera certainly takes more than just numbers, but that's the lowest common denominator that the USPA really has to work with.

'On average' someone with 200 jumps has spent some 'time' logging those dives, they've matured in the sport through exposure, observation, socialization and the like. They have experienced more and therefore to what ever degree, they are a more skillful and competent Skydiver than they were with 1/2 the time &/or number of jumps.

It's more of a bell curve thing, sure some are ready quicker, some may never be ready. Realize that having a general baseline is a pretty good way to serve the 'masses'...

...'most' people 'should' be ready by 200 jumps, barring a mandatory camera course, study guide & a rating test - that's what we are working with for now.

It's not meant to be a penalty, it's an acknowledgement that there is more to this than boltin' a box to your head.

Situational awareness, though important isn't the only thing one needs to be concerned with.

Will someone with a new B license react correctly to a helmet horseshoe?

Are they jumping a safe set-up?

If say, someone thinks the GoPro is 'easy', might they then also think I'll add an SLR...what could go wrong?

Without some logical guidelines the 'when' & 'how much' will as always, be pushed until it breaks a bunch of PEOPLE.

Let's work together and be proactive on this one!

~ I understand what you're saying... but seriously, isn't it better to 'error' on the side of caution regarding adding complexity for the sake of shits & giggles on YouTube?

What's the point??

You did it with low numbers...so did I. In fact - I was using a hand held Super-8 with well under 100 jumps, and doin' it back when it took both hands to cutaway.

In BOTH of our cases ~ Doesn't mean it was a GOOD idea!

Just because 'we both' got away with it, doesn't by any means prove it's safe to do - in general.

~~With this part ---> I'm not tryin' to rag on ya but instead give you something to mentally chew on. You're a Coach aspiring to get your AFFI, there aren't any 'could be, should be, might be' good enough when somebody puts their life in your hands.

You'll study, you will train...you will be tested during your certification.

The reason you're not an AAFI right now is because there are hoops to jump through, minimum qualifications outlined that you hopefully understand are set up to create a safe 'standard' for performance.

IF your really don't understand how that concept applies to an extremely basic #'s requirement 'standard' for the use of additional and unnecessary gear that unquestionably adds complexity & risk to the Skydive...I'd seriously reconsider becoming an Instructor.

there aren't any 'could be, should be, might be' good enough when somebody puts their life in your hands.

Point well taken.

All great points, airtwardo and I really appreciate the well formulated response. I agree, to "error" on the side of safety is nearly always going to be a good thing. I can only imagine the transformation that jumpers like you have seen over the years as USPA started to implement BSRs and a real culture of safety developed. All of which I am a grateful beneficiary of.

One thing that I've seen (and here I mean folks who start jumping a camera immediately once they get an A-license) is that the #s argument alone is...like I said before...like abstinence only sex ed. It's really really easy to think, "well they obviously don't know how awesome I am and this rule is clearly for other people". Unfortunately I've never been around to hear an instructor delve into the real whys of needing more experience before making a skydive more and more complex (when it comes to cameras)...and lots of jumpers don't read through the SIM so the finer points fail to reach them.

Hell, I remember at one DZ having a wing suit instructor try and talk me into doing a WS flight with only 90 jumps under my belt...and with absolutely no ground schooling! I guess my point there is that the typical skydiver is a risk taker, and I think risk takers tend to ignore "rules" but respect "common sense". I'd love to see more of that, but have no idea how the organization would go about implementing/encouraging that in a concise and repeatable manner.

I made my first camera jump with about 130 jumps; it was also my first cutaway. I of course landed with both ripcords and the camera (although my plan had been to discard everything).

This might be a case where the local Area Safety Officer or I/E or even AFFI could override the suggested minimum. But it might just be that a formal checklist of skills that have to be demonstrated for early camera usage (before some X number of jumps) could help local officials in making that evaluation.

Yeah, some will cave at any request, and others won't approve the next Norman Kent/DanBC combination. But it's a way of formalizing the process, but leaving it to local control.

What kinds of skills and requirements are necessary for camera jumping?

I started jumping camera at around 160 jumps. I bought a used camera helmet with a pc109 with a cutaway chin cup. I didn't just strap in on and forget about. I got coaching, lots of it. The first thing my coach did was teach me 4 different EPs for various malfunction scenarios when jumping with a camera and had me drill them many times over. Can anyone here even tell me what the 4 different EPs might be while jumping a camera helmet with a cutaway system? The the first couple of jumps I was to jump without turning the camera on just to get used to the extra weight of the helmet. Then I did a couple of 2 ways where the objective was to keep the subject in frame while maintaining altitude awareness. We debrief my video pointing out where I was looking at what I was doing after deployment. You know, fly away from the formation and clear your air space before doing anything else with the camera, slider, toggles etc.

I think this coaching really helped prepaid me to fly camera and I think it's one of the bigger problems with today's culture is that you never really see anyone getting coaching on flying camera. Everyone is to busy saying you don't have enough experience and your going to die if you do that...

So it would be nice to see some kind of camera endorsement, even if it is just informal coaching from a senior camera jumper. Most people are keen to learn if presented with the opportunity.

Well i dont jump a camera, although at 81 jumps and 1 year in the sport i should at least have 3 or 4 running by now. Especially on my wingsuit jumps.

I had figured there was some other things that have to be considered before jumping cam besides something like. if it gets caught cut it away (which may or may not be right, havent checked yet) But seeing as i came across this, what are the 4 EPs for camera jumping?

>BUT, I first jumped with a side mount camera when I had just over 100 jumps and >never once did it affect my performance in the sky . . .

I very much doubt that. I started jumping a camera in bigways at about jump #1000 and I wasn't aware of the problems it was causing either - until I got told "lose the camera or you're off the dive." I was flying more poorly because I was aware of where the lens was pointed. But if you had asked me before Kate had talked to me I would have said "never once did it affect my performance in any way."

>As some of the posts in this thread state, cameras are smaller and cheaper than ever >before so the idea that new skydiver aren't' going to strap a camera to their head is no >different than abstinence only sex ed.

No one's teaching abstinence. They are teaching (to use your analogy) "absolutely no sex before age 12 because you're just not ready for it, no matter how much you think you are. When you ARE ready, here's what to do to be safe." And such rules seem pretty reasonable.

>I just don't have a strong aversion to flying a camera at 75/100 jumps if you've >shown that you're a competent, aware skydiver. Am I missing something?

A lot of things. Look at DSE's list.

And why stop at 75 jumps? Once 75 jumps becomes the lower limit, there will be exceptional people who can do it at 50. And once 50 becomes the new limit, there will be exceptional people who do not need to follow the 50 jump limit - that's for average jumpers. So they'll start at 20 jumps. After all, the camera is tiny, it won't affect their skydiving at all, there's no snag hazard, they will just "turn it on and forget it" etc etc.

>I think that REQUIRING 300 skydives before you're allowed to jump with a camera >is kind of ridiculous...I've been in the air with D-license jumpers who scare the hell >out of me so #s are very misleading.

I think you may misunderstand the 200 jump thing. 200 jumps does not mean "you're good to go! Strap a camera on and go jump." It's the minimum number of jumps you need before you start LEARNING about camera. It's just a part of the foundation that gives you the experience you need to do it safely. And most people will not be ready at 200 jumps - it depends on the person.

200 jumps does not mean "you're good to go! Strap a camera on and go jump."

The difficulty is though, by putting a specific jump number recommendation rather than, say, a signed off camera training card (or equivalent) that's exactly what people do think. At jump 201 or anything beyond, because that limit is there, they must now be ok, you effectively said as much happened to you, and you had 1000 jumps.

Quote:

I started jumping a camera in bigways at about jump #1000 and I wasn't aware of the problems it was causing either - until I got told "lose the camera or you're off the dive."

I'm not saying that the 200 jump recommendation should be removed or become a more rigid requirement (in the US, as it's already a requirement in the UK), simply that on it's own it's largely irrelevant.

>At jump 201 or anything beyond, because that limit is there, they must now be ok, you >effectively said as much happened to you, and you had 1000 jumps.

Then we need to make that clearer. We could adopt the same sort of guidelines that wingsuit instructors use - "200 jumps if you are VERY heads up, are willing to train for it and do your first jumps with an instructor who will watch you. 500 jumps if you want to do it on your own."

>I'm not saying that the 200 jump recommendation should be removed or become a >more rigid requirement, simply that on it's own it's largely irrelevant.

It does tend to discourage people with less than 200 jumps from jumping camera, which helps keep them alive. I agree, you need more than just a limit to help people past that point though.

>BUT, I first jumped with a side mount camera when I had just over 100 jumps and >never once did it affect my performance in the sky . . .

I very much doubt that. I started jumping a camera in bigways at about jump #1000 and I wasn't aware of the problems it was causing either - until I got told "lose the camera or you're off the dive." I was flying more poorly because I was aware of where the lens was pointed. But if you had asked me before Kate had talked to me I would have said "never once did it affect my performance in any way."

+1. Well said, Bill.

For everyone that claims the camera doesn't affect performance or that it isn't a distraction, I just set it and forget it....

I'm calling bullshit!

I didn't start really jumping camera until after 3000 jumps and I've made several silly mistakes caused by too much focus on the camera.

Little things like forgetting my altimiter or to switch from my usual sunglasses to my jump ones. I've made mistakes with the camera getting in a hurry on jump run.

I've seen friends make the same kinds of mistakes and many more. Like not doing the chest strap properly, the list goes on.

I've seen one and heard of another where the camera person actually got on the plane without a rig! Seems obvious but they both had thousands of jumps. They were distracted by the camera.

The 200 jump # is for the exceptional jumpers, not just everyone.

DSE's Small Format Camera Incedent list is a MUST READ for anyone thinking about flying camera.

I tried to talk about this on a thread some weeks ago but the replies were not much of a conversation. It was more like no one was reading the text of the message. This thread appears to have attracted a different crowd.

I have an interest that is not really related very much to the video produced by the camera but to basically record flight information. I would love to record my thoughts and actions as do canopy drills. Review of the recorded information, I feel, would be a tool to help me learn. I have a very small camera that has a clip on it. I attached a photo of it on a chest strap to show what I envision (someday). The video quality is not all that great but it would be okay to review with. I could talk to it and it would keep a general record of the direction I was facing, turns, or whatever.

However, it seems that no matter what the intended use or how small, most people have their minds made up from the beginning. It is if everyone thinks that you want wants to produce jump videos for Youtube, no matter what your plan might be. It has already been mentioned that in some cases the camera is just there for the ride and it is not influencing the jump. Where this is true, and the camera is not a physical encumbrance, I wonder if the attitude will ever soften up.

I know there is no answer to my query. But I like what someone suggested about taking a fresh look at the future situation.

why not just use your memory? You will probably want to hone this skill (remembering details about the dive), especially if you ever find yourself in a role of helping out a friend learn something in freefall who has less experience. You might as well start now instead of giving yourself a handicap.

I'm not surprised though that seems to be the way the entire world is going with externalizing their mind to electronic devices.

Then we need to make that clearer. We could adopt the same sort of guidelines that wingsuit instructors use - "200 jumps if you are VERY heads up, are willing to train for it and do your first jumps with an instructor who will watch you. 500 jumps if you want to do it on your own."

I like the analogy to the WS approach, let a qualified instructor make the call. But this also poses some difficulties in that you'd need an instructor flying 2nd camera slot (sort of) while the "student" flew camera on another group..right? Right off the bat we're starting to make it very hard for C182 DZs. That's a lot of bodies to coordinate and get to participate in a coaching jump.

I tried to talk about this on a thread some weeks ago but the replies were not much of a conversation. It was more like no one was reading the text of the message. This thread appears to have attracted a different crowd.

I have an interest that is not really related very much to the video produced by the camera but to basically record flight information. I would love to record my thoughts and actions as do canopy drills. Review of the recorded information, I feel, would be a tool to help me learn. I have a very small camera that has a clip on it. I attached a photo of it on a chest strap to show what I envision (someday). The video quality is not all that great but it would be okay to review with. I could talk to it and it would keep a general record of the direction I was facing, turns, or whatever.

However, it seems that no matter what the intended use or how small, most people have their minds made up from the beginning. It is if everyone thinks that you want wants to produce jump videos for Youtube, no matter what your plan might be. It has already been mentioned that in some cases the camera is just there for the ride and it is not influencing the jump. Where this is true, and the camera is not a physical encumbrance, I wonder if the attitude will ever soften up.

I know there is no answer to my query. But I like what someone suggested about taking a fresh look at the future situation.

That IS tiny!

As I said before, it's kind of a one rule fits all thing right now it seems...and it's aimed at the center-line.

In conversing privately with you, I understand your reasons for wanting to add this type of assist to your learning toolbox.

With that in mind, have you approached your instructor about the possibility of clipping it on, out of the way, after the canopy opens?

People are giving you their opinions on this but you're not listening. If you want to do it, do it. It's a bad idea, you won't learn anything from it and it's dangerous to other skydivers, but if you don't have anyone looking out for new jumpers at your DZ you'll probably get away with it.

>It has already been mentioned that in some cases the camera is just there for the >ride and it is not influencing the jump.

Yep. There are ~20 or so cameras "just along for the jump" listed in DSE's thread. And yet they caused incidents anyway.

Of course none of those cameras "influenced" the jump. In all cases the jumper was the one who got influenced by the knowledge that there was a camera on the jump - even though they were sure that wouldn't happen.

With that in mind, have you approached your instructor about the possibility of clipping it on, out of the way, after the canopy opens?

No, maybe someday I will. I also have a small MP3 player that has a voice record mode on it. I think it would work in an upper shirt pocket and be somewhat effective. I would not have to use the C word then.

With that in mind, have you approached your instructor about the possibility of clipping it on, out of the way, after the canopy opens?

No, maybe someday I will. I also have a small MP3 player that has a voice record mode on it. I think it would work in an upper shirt pocket and be somewhat effective. I would not have to use the C word then.

I usually don't reply on these, advice wise, since my profile is accurate and with a whopping 80 jumps, not only do I not know what I don't know, sometimes I feel like I don't know that I don't know what I don't know :).

Anyway, I feel your pain about wanting something for a camera. I've always been a fast learner on things that I dive into, be it books, work, or sports, and so hearing about needing a C for the USPA recommendation was really frustrating at first. Sometimes I'm still thinking, "120 jumps to go! Weee!" But I do lurk and read the forums a lot, incidents and safety, and I can see -- as much as I can at this level -- why the numbers are there. And then I got to thinking, if I'm really going to spend a lot of time in this sport, both in jumps and years, really, what is 200 jumps when compared to what I hope will be thousands and thousands? Not a whole lot when you look at the big picture. At only 4 jumps a weekend, it'll only take a year to hit that magic number, and that's starting from 0, and I imagine it will feel like its on me before I know it. I'm already in awe I just hit my 1 year anniversary (Jan 30). So anyway, point being, after I sat back and thought, and thought, and thought, why not just enjoy the ride to 200, learn all you can, and be comfortable in the fact that maybe waiting is best, even if you are a normally "good" at things. After all, it's *only* 200 jumps, and 1 bad early jump will ensure you never fly camera.

With that in mind, have you approached your instructor about the possibility of clipping it on, out of the way, after the canopy opens?

No, maybe someday I will. I also have a small MP3 player that has a voice record mode on it. I think it would work in an upper shirt pocket and be somewhat effective. I would not have to use the C word then.

...and, I'm curious; If you have an emergency, are you going to grab your little camera/recorder and search it for the proper emergency procedures? I guess what Iím saying is, if you need a recording device to study what just happened in order to learn from it, maybe the bowling speech is in order?

Make more skydives! Befriend a good camera flyer to jump with you. Spend the money you saved NOT buying a camera to pay for a few of his/her jumps. My guess is, youíll still learn and youíll have just as much fun.

As for the Camera EP's... Please start a new thread in Photography on this!!

>I also have a small MP3 player that has a voice record mode on it. I think it would >work in an upper shirt pocket and be somewhat effective. I would not have to use the >C word then.

The problem is not that you have a camera on you. The problem is that you get distracted by it - and at 11 jumps you don't have any attention to spare. Anything that distracts you - an MP3 player, a camera, a Nintendo, a banner you want to fly - has a similar potential.

Save the more complex jumps until you have enough experience that you can spare a little attention away from your most important task (saving your own life) to deal with a gadget.

Yes, I know there is a great deal that I am not aware of. By study and asking questions, some of that is uncovered.

If I donít understand, or if I donít agree, I would invite a logical and sensible explanation. If I still donít get it, I invite a convincing argument that would allow me to see it from a perspective that would put knowledge in the bank.

At my stage in the sport I have to blindly trust those that do know better. I do that.

I am just more accustom to a different sort of conversation that want tends to happen here.

Yes, I know there is a great deal that I am not aware of. By study and asking questions, some of that is uncovered.

If I donít understand, or if I donít agree, I would invite a logical and sensible explanation. If I still donít get it, I invite a convincing argument that would allow me to see it from a perspective that would put knowledge in the bank.

At my stage in the sport I have to blindly trust those that do know better. I do that.

I am just more accustom to a different sort of conversation that want tends to happen here.

Sorry.

Part of the problem is that we're all convinced of our abilities that we mistakenly believe go beyond the abilities of others. The camera incidents thread is filled with people that feel the camera won't be a distraction or alter behavior. Even highly experienced skydivers have found themselves "out of rhythm" when adding a camera to their jumps. These additional tasks, coupled with not-yet-instinctive tasks, can create situations that at best, you'll get lucky, and at worst, someone else becomes involved. There are so many considerations... The two guys whose video I posted a couple days ago were just going out to have fun and take some pix of each other. Aside from the premature deployment, hurt back/neck, and destroyed canopy, the end result could have been much, much worse given proximity and other factors.

We can train better to mitigate the risk, sure. However, there are some tasks best left to developed instinct before adding more responsibilities on the jump. One example, I can think of well over a dozen instances where merely turning on a small camera has resulted in helmet buckles, chest straps, seat belts, altimeter checks have been missed due to the very small distraction.

I can think of well over a dozen instances where merely turning on a small camera has resulted in helmet buckles, chest straps, seat belts, altimeter checks have been missed due to the very small distraction.

Holy SH*% that is scary to me. If you can't remember to properly route your chest strap just because you have a camera on...you should reconsider your hobby as a skydiver. Unless your plan is to never do more than a 2 way, never downsize, never WS, never jump from a novelty craft, or really anything else that would ever introduce a new element.

three of your four involve a camera cutaway. most of these cameras don't have cutaway systems (indeed, some of them involve tethering the camera to the helmet) so what does one do then?

why does he have to provide all possible scenarios even for setups he doesn't jump?

- he practiced the procedures, under the advice and mentorship of an experienced cameraman - for the set up personally owned - do you think he missed any other scenarios for that setup?

You have a TON of experience - can you fill in the gaps for other setups? I think that's useful. Or do you have it on a website elsewhere.

(I've followed a lot of your input on camera work when I put my setup together, I'm sincerely interested in your input. I'm not just busting on you busting on him)

I don't know what the set up is that he has. It's great that there is someone mentoring. If you took my post as "busting him" then it was taken incorrectly. I'd like to spawn more discussion for the newbies reading this thread that haven't considered tethers, cutaways, or EP's.

Honestly, the guy that is considering most of these cameras likely doesn't feel they need one. In several instances, myself or others have had to grab even experienced skydivers tethering their camera to their helmet, and pointing out the risks.

I've been fortunate that for what ever reason, I've never had an entanglement that has caused me to need to use the cutaways that are on all three of my camera helmets, but the EP's for cutting them away are part of every jump.

Quote:

Holy SH*% that is scary to me. If you can't remember to properly route your chest strap just because you have a camera on...you should reconsider your hobby as a skydiver. Unless your plan is to never do more than a 2 way, never downsize, never WS, never jump from a novelty craft, or really anything else that would ever introduce a new element.

And THAT is the skydiver that scares me the most, the one that says "this will never happen to me because...."

At my stage in the sport I have to blindly trust those that do know better. I do that.

I am just more accustom to a different sort of conversation that want tends to happen here.

Sorry.

In reply to:

Well...

It's the SOP on the internet Dan, in their defence I'll say that the guys who are responding to you are quite talented and extremely qualified.

They are giving ya the 'average student' advice that's always given and all too often either questioned without cause or totally ignored and it gets frustrating for them.

I'd also like to say to the 'guys' ...in Dan's defence - he's most definitely NOT a 'normal student' so let's step back a moment.

Some of the comments 'dthames' made in a different thread raised an eyebrow, he seemed WAY too 'on the ball' regarding jump numbers & depth of understand. That prompted me to make private contact thinking 'young motivated guy breezing AFF that's interested and approaching things with good logic'

I was 1/2 right ~ he's an 'old guy' like me, and not doing AFF...he IS however very intelligent, motivated, logical and if everyone understood what all has gone into his making those 11 jumps thus far...you'd agree quite persevering.

He has NO misplaced 'Madd Skillz' opinion of himself, he genuinely wants to know why something is what it is. He's also 'not average' in-that he's dealing with something in order to participate that most of us don't.

>I am just more accustom to a different sort of conversation that want tends to happen here.

I think the way to have that conversation is to ask "what do people think of X" - that tends to get people's thoughts more than their reasons you shouldn't do it.

If you start off with "I'm planning on doing X" people are generally going to tell you their reasons that you shouldn't do it. (The ones that might otherwise reply "that might be useful" won't reply in that case, since you already said you're doing it.)

The camera thing has become something like the small canopy thing. It seems like well over 50% of the people asking if they should downsize are not looking for answers to that question - they're looking for that one guy to say "go for it." Once they have that one answer (which is the answer they want) they have all the justification they need to make a bad decision.

If you don't fall into that category you might end up (incorrectly) lumped into that group anyway due to the sheer number of people in that category. Which is too bad - and if I lumped you in there I apologize for doing that.

There are so much to enjoy in skydiving besides from video making. Whats the hurry??

I agree!

Pertaining to my prior post though, that jumper isn't asking about video making in the same sense most of the lower jump # people do.

He truly believes that some private POV reviewable input would assist him with his methodical approach.

From what he's told me, I have some doubts that he 'really' needs it ~ because he's extremely aware of what, why & how he's doing what he's doing.

I think he believes it would give him a helpful & positive edge with his learning & progression.

If that is indeed the case, I withdraw my previous suggestion about the bowling speech. However, I still think he'd be money ahead to friend up with a good videographer. In the long run, he'd probly save money and end up with footage he could use and enjoy.

Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.

In reply to:

...Unless maybe the Earth is NOT flat!

But seriously, I understand what you're saying, what YOU don't understand is what the guy I was refering to was saying.

If you'll review, it was not 'Im cool and screw the rules I'm jumping a camera'

It was basicly, 'How would a small camera the size of a Bic lighter cliped to the chest strap, negatively affect my decent under canopy'

~and it was a serious question, not a 'you're all idiots for thinking it will, I know more than you'

...it was a 'I know I don't understand much, tell me why I'm being told not to do this'

That's actually a pretty methodical way of going about understanding something...'Ok you say it's black, why is it black'

Unfortunately we often times seem to mis-hear the question as a statement, 'you're crazy, that's not black, I know more than you do'... and jump all over the guy asking the question.

For example I could tear apart YOUR statements- >>>Someone who believes a camera is going to make the difference has in my opinion missed the whole point. Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.<<<

~and twist them all up by showing 20 ways they are incorrect given certian situations of historical reference, and that YOU don't know what you don't know...etc.

~but I'm pretty sure you're not an idiot, you are making a 'general statement' that you believe to be correct, about a camera question.

However given the 'actual' context of the question asked regarding the camera and it use, in 'this' instance...a 'general' statement does little to address the question.

We all can do better than that, like BillVon said, 'it's unfortunate we sometimes lump people together' when they ask a question.

SOMETIMES it's a real question, or a 'real' misunderstanding and piling on with negative insulting responces is rather counter productive to advancing that understanding.

When ya hear hoofs don't ALWAYS think horses, there are a few Zebras in there sometimes!

I tried to talk about this on a thread some weeks ago but the replies were not much of a conversation. It was more like no one was reading the text of the message. This thread appears to have attracted a different crowd.

I have an interest that is not really related very much to the video produced by the camera but to basically record flight information. I would love to record my thoughts and actions as do canopy drills. Review of the recorded information, I feel, would be a tool to help me learn. I have a very small camera that has a clip on it. I attached a photo of it on a chest strap to show what I envision (someday). The video quality is not all that great but it would be okay to review with. I could talk to it and it would keep a general record of the direction I was facing, turns, or whatever.

However, it seems that no matter what the intended use or how small, most people have their minds made up from the beginning. It is if everyone thinks that you want wants to produce jump videos for Youtube, no matter what your plan might be. It has already been mentioned that in some cases the camera is just there for the ride and it is not influencing the jump. Where this is true, and the camera is not a physical encumbrance, I wonder if the attitude will ever soften up.

I know there is no answer to my query. But I like what someone suggested about taking a fresh look at the future situation.

Thing is, a camera on the cheststrap isn't going to help you much. It doesn't show you anything but the direction you're flying.

If you want to learn about controlling your canopy, get a buddy to video you from the ground. Better, get an experienced videoflyer to fly level with you (but not too close). That way, you also have a reference for how your canopy behaves during turns; how much altitude you lose and such. THAT might give you the edge you're looking for. And get a canopy course from a decent coach. Can't go wrong with those.

Thing is, a camera on the cheststrap isn't going to help you much. It doesn't show you anything but the direction you're flying.

If you want to learn about controlling your canopy, get a buddy to video you from the ground. Better, get an experienced videoflyer to fly level with you (but not too close). That way, you also have a reference for how your canopy behaves during turns; how much altitude you lose and such. THAT might give you the edge you're looking for. And get a canopy course from a decent coach. Can't go wrong with those.

Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.

In reply to:

...Unless maybe the Earth is NOT flat!

But seriously, I understand what you're saying, what YOU don't understand is what the guy I was refering to was saying.

If you'll review, it was not 'Im cool and screw the rules I'm jumping a camera'

It was basicly, 'How would a small camera the size of a Bic lighter cliped to the chest strap, negatively affect my decent under canopy'

~and it was a serious question, not a 'you're all idiots for thinking it will, I know more than you'

...it was a 'I know I don't understand much, tell me why I'm being told not to do this'

That's actually a pretty methodical way of going about understanding something...'Ok you say it's black, why is it black'

Unfortunately we often times seem to mis-hear the question as a statement, 'you're crazy, that's not black, I know more than you do'... and jump all over the guy asking the question.

For example I could tear apart YOUR statements- >>>Someone who believes a camera is going to make the difference has in my opinion missed the whole point. Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.<<<

~and twist them all up by showing 20 ways they are incorrect given certian situations of historical reference, and that YOU don't know what you don't know...etc.

~but I'm pretty sure you're not an idiot, you are making a 'general statement' that you believe to be correct, about a camera question.

However given the 'actual' context of the question asked regarding the camera and it use, in 'this' instance...a 'general' statement does little to address the question.

We all can do better than that, like BillVon said, 'it's unfortunate we sometimes lump people together' when they ask a question.

SOMETIMES it's a real question, or a 'real' misunderstanding and piling on with negative insulting responces is rather counter productive to advancing that understanding.

When ya hear hoofs don't ALWAYS think horses, there are a few Zebras in there sometimes!

You never know in which direction the wind is going to blow in this forum..

I just want to thank those of you who provided thoughtful replies explaining the dangers of even strapping along a camera "for the ride." It really changes my perspective on my eagerness to eventually be able to jump with a camera. Teaching physics and working with young people, I kmow,the "don't do it because you are too young and stupid " in rarely effective in getting people to do anything. So, I appreciate you guys laying out all the reasons, using supporting examples and especially testimony to help break down the often-perceived barrier "US old-timers vs you dumb newbies."

At 11 jumpmps in, reading this really did remove a lot of the eagerness to eventually jumpmps with a camera, even if it would only be "along for the ride."

I just want to thank those of you who provided thoughtful replies explaining the dangers of even strapping along a camera "for the ride." It really changes my perspective on my eagerness to eventually be able to jump with a camera. Teaching physics and working with young people, I kmow,the "don't do it because you are too young and stupid " in rarely effective in getting people to do anything. So, I appreciate you guys laying out all the reasons, using supporting examples and especially testimony to help break down the often-perceived barrier "US old-timers vs you dumb newbies."

At 11 jumpmps in, reading this really did remove a lot of the eagerness to eventually jumpmps with a camera, even if it would only be "along for the ride."

Don't let the stories kill your eagerness to do it. You just have to do it at the right time when you have the right experience, and do it the right way. Be patient, watch and listen, learn, and then when you've got the jumps and are ready, you'll know how to do it as safely as possible.