In the TV2 news tonight, there were quite a few men who walked right past Mary, without even looking at her.

i think this proves my earlier point. since there were so many of them doing so, it is more evidence that it really is a cultural thing, and not a disrespect on their part. i don't think it is right, but i don't think they can be called 'rude' or 'disrespectful' because of not wanting to shake her hand, or even acknowledge her. women, unfortunately, are nothing else but their husbands wives in SA, and mary is just one more of those women in this situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannelore

What a strange place this country is ... Makes me very glad to enjoy my freedom! Let's hope some of the positive sides of Saudi Arabia will be highlighted too.

Are you sure Mary was there... This is the "official version":
"Then, the Crown Prince of Denmark and Dr. Abdulrahman Al-Zamil also opened the exhibition which highlighted the possible partnership opportunities of Danish companies."

Hm! Yees, perhaps we will only see the tips of Mary's shoes in the officially released photos.

Together with a representative from Riyadhs Chamber of Commerce, M&F - standing side by side - opened the Danish Saudi Business Forum.
Frederik gave a speech for the 300 invited guests after which M&F strolled around the various booths set up by Danish businesses.

As M&F are not to say anything remotely political during this visit, BB instead quotes the Foreign Minister, Kristian Jensen: "The CP-couple opens more doors, the businesses get better opportunities for creating growth and jobs in Denmark. That's what we want to accomplish from this trip".

Thank you MUhler. great start to the second day. I for one am happy that Mary is by Frederik's side.

Agreed. Mary's presence sends a positive message to Saudi women. Although it must have been a new experience for Mary to be virtually ignored in a receiving line, she handled it beautifully. I also like the way she's dressed, and I hope we get to see photos of her with Saudi women in her solo events.

Some years ago, I read a book called ''Inside the Kingdom'' by Carmen bin Laden, who was married to one of Osama bin Laden's brothers. It certainly made me appreciate living in a more egalitarian society.

We can see this is a "different" trip - also for F&M - who usually hold and cuddling each other's hands and are very flirtatious with each other. I do not think we should expect to see much of this during this trip in Saudi Arabia. I can imagine F&M have them some interesting talk in the evening before going to bed. It's a country very different for Denmark.

Thomas Hoffmann says:
"You of course greet eachother, but you avoid touching and that is founded in a very sharp divide, which exist in several places in the public space in the Islamic world, where there is a very strong separation between the sexes.
In Saudi Arabia a completely different view on women is prevailant from what we know in the Western world. Physical contact is in several places considered directly illegal according to stricter interpretations of Sharia, unless it's wintin a marriage and other family relationships.
That's why you simply do not greet eachother in this way, because the direct touch is considered the prelude to sexual contact.
But one must also keep in mind that it goes both ways. If the DRF should meet a row of female Saudi Arabian during an official visit, these women would in the same way refuse to shake hands with Crown Prince Frederik. So it's not just a question of men refusing to shake hands with women, it's also so with women against men".

- And that IMO is fair enough if it's only about not shaking hands, but at least acknowledge Mary's existence. Which quite a number failed to do.
Somehow I doubt Saudi women would walk right past Frederik.

If Mary is the champion of womens rights as she would have us believe, she should have let her husband travel alone to this country. IMO

How does she champion for womens rights by staying home? Isn't she doing that by going there, standing next to her husband (not behind him), taking part in the activities on equal ground and standing with her back straight even if some of the men ignore her?

Let me guess, if she had stayed home, you would have thought she should have championed for womens rights by going..

And Mary doesn't have to "have us believe" she is a champion of womens rights. Those of us who follow her work know exactly what she does.

How does she champion for womens rights by staying home? Isn't she doing that by going there, standing next to her husband (not behind him), taking part in the activities on equal ground and standing with her back straight even if some of the men ignore her?

Let me guess, if she had stayed home, you would have thought she should have championed for womens rights by going..

And Mary doesn't have to "have us believe" she is a champion of womens rights. Those of us who follow her work know exactly what she does.

Saudi Arabia is one of the worst countries for women to live. Just recently I read that are not allowed to go into coffee shops to buy a coffee-to-go (that article was about Starbucks in Saudi Arabia). If you visit a country where you are not allowed to comment on political issues because it would harm the own business does not give a good picture.

I follow Mary's live since her marriage and I respect her for standing up for children and women's rights. But as for my perspective this trip doesn't seem right.

Journalists from six Danish medias accompany M&F, but they didn't see them at all yesterday. The photos and clips were made by a DK photographer and a cameraman, selected on the spur it seems.

There is also an explanation of the Saudi dress code:
About half of the Saudi women wear a Niqab, that covers everything apart from the eyes.
The rest wear a scarf (hajib).
Western women need not cover their hair, but the rest of the body must be covered. As such the female Danish press members have been issued an abaya. A long loose-fitting black dress that go from the neck to to the feet.
... [snipped].

Thanks for the links and translation !

The enlightened Danish press is pathetic. Taking an offence on behalf of Crown Princess Mary is stupid. One might incessantly whine about rights of women and other issues in Saudi Arabia. However, one must conform to rules and traditions of the country.

It is a time-honoured plebeian tradition for European royals and their press corp to visit Saudi Arabia, accept expensive presents, and complain about inconveniences they encounter.

__________________"I never did mind about the little things"
Amanda, "Point of No Return"

If your religon or beliefs means your disrepectful.......ridiculous. They can call it culture.... I know too much to know its more than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlota

i think this proves my earlier point. since there were so many of them doing so, it is more evidence that it really is a cultural thing, and not a disrespect on their part. i don't think it is right, but i don't think they can be called 'rude' or 'disrespectful' because of not wanting to shake her hand, or even acknowledge her. women, unfortunately, are nothing else but their husbands wives in SA, and mary is just one more of those women in this situation.

That many would not shake hands was probably a given but that they should walk past her and totally ignore her was certainly not.

I find this behaviour nothing less than a deliberate insult as this is a formal, diplomatic visit and I am sure both Frederik and Mary would have been well briefed as to what to expect so as not to cause offence to their hosts. Mary obviously didn't expect to be publicly disrespected. However, she handled the situation with grace.

Those photos of Frederik with his hand in his pocket may very well be his own way to ensure he didn't do what comes so totally automatic and naturally to him, but would totally offend his hosts, namely putting his hand in the small of Mary's back or actually taking her hand in public.

I find myself intrigued by both Mary and Frederik's dress code. Formally, Mary is covering herself but wearing an abaya except in public and is not even covering her hair while Frederik is even wearing a casual short sleeved shirt which I thought would not meet the modesty standard for men as it was showing too much "skin" even for men.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al_bina

The enlightened Danish press is pathetic. Taking an offence on behalf of Crown Princess Mary is stupid. One might incessantly whine about rights of women and other issues in Saudi Arabia. However, one must conform to rules and traditions of the country.

It is a time-honoured plebeian tradition for European royals and their press corp to visit Saudi Arabia, accept expensive presents, and complain about inconveniences they encounter.

I would hardly think that bad manners are a cultural and traditional rule, as indeed is the intimation that Frederik and Mary or any other European Royal would publicly complain about "inconveniences" while accepting presents.

"Plebeian". Really?

__________________MARG"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes

The enlightened Danish press is pathetic. Taking an offence on behalf of Crown Princess Mary is stupid. One might incessantly whine about rights of women and other issues in Saudi Arabia. However, one must conform to rules and traditions of the country.

It is a time-honoured plebeian tradition for European royals and their press corp to visit Saudi Arabia, accept expensive presents, and complain about inconveniences they encounter.

So legislated oppression of women is okay, as long as it happens in the holy names of culture and religion?

If I wrote on this forum that it is my firm belief that women should stay at home and look after the children and that women in my opinion should not hold public offices and preferably not be allowed to vote either.
What would your response be?

There is a distinct double-standard that I find disturbing.
Many women in the West would be on me like a ton of bricks if I meant the above. And (fully deserved) call me a stone-age chauvinist as one of the more mild expressions.
Yet the very same women are perfectly willing to accept and close their eyes for other women being oppressed, also in the West, because "that is their culture". - So who are the hypocrites?

I'm not at all proud of this visit. There is a Danish saying that loosely translated goes like this: If having a (moral) standard is good, then having a double-standard must twice as good... I think that applies for this visit.

The enlightened Danish press is pathetic. Taking an offence on behalf of Crown Princess Mary is stupid. One might incessantly whine about rights of women and other issues in Saudi Arabia. However, one must conform to rules and traditions of the country.

It is a time-honoured plebeian tradition for European royals and their press corp to visit Saudi Arabia, accept expensive presents, and complain about inconveniences they encounter.

i have to agree. we are quick to criticise that women are not treated according to western standards when visiting saudi, quick to oversee that mary herself is an advocate of women's rights, quick to oversee what a terrible track record saudi arabia has... but then everyone seems to become quiet when they see how much of an economic impact this visit will have, and how much of an economic player saudi arabia is and the dollar money they will inject after this visit into denmark (or any other country organising an economic mission).

either we stand by our 'human and women's rights defenders' position, we value consistency and we ignore saudi arabia (and their money), or we organise economic missions to saudi to get their money and 'overlook' the fact that certain of our values are not the same there when we are confronted to them. but we can't have it all.

Quote:

If I wrote on this forum that it is my firm belief that women should stay at home and look after the children and that women in my opinion should not hold public offices and preferably not be allowed to vote either.
What would your response be?

i think you are taking things out of context. of course, such a statement would not be tolerated in our western cultures. but it would be a very silly thing to say, or even imply, that they don't have a great human rights record when on a visit to saudi arabia to ask them to invest their money in your country....