Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Remember a scene in the beggining of BatmN 89 where one of the muggers says i dont want to be up here or something like that because of the Batman, thats what happened in Nolan's Batman, he became a symbol of fear for every criminal. Crime rate was dropping because of him, "casual" muggers and organized mob bosses as well.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by C. Lee

I feel he hung up the cape because Rachel died.

Why stop because of the Dent Act? Because organized crime was severely harmed? Doesn't mean there is no more organized crime....and what about the disorganized crime of the city? Batman cares about organized crime stealing $6 billion from businesses....but doesn't give a damn about the poor schmuck who can't walk down the street without getting his head bashed in for the $6.00 in his pocket? Batman cares about organized crime raping the judicial system by buying off cops, judges, lawyers....but doesn't give a damn about the women of the city who are raped by malicious perverts?

If people are saying that the Batman of these movies ONLY cares about stopping organized crime...then he is not the Batman I have known for 50 years.

The key scene that is mentioned -
Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

Based on the lie that Batman told himself. After Rachel died, and the adrenalin rush of revenge.....Batman is so tore up and has time to fall into a depression over her death, that he hangs up the cape and convinces himself that he won. Never mind that there is still crime in the city. Never mind that people are still getting murdered, raped, and maimed on a daily basis. He won. He stopped crime in Gotham city. I'm sure the late night fast food/gas station attendant holding a rag to his bleeding head is thinking "Thank God Batman stopped the organized crime in the city and hung up his cape....otherwise he might have been hurt by this crack addicted robber too."

Is this the Batman you guys have been reading? Batman is out patrolling the streets of Gotham...he hears gunshots...he races to the scene....oh, it's only a crackhead killing a guy to get money for his next fix.....swings back up to the top of the tallest building around...I must ever be on the lookout for organized crime!!!!!!

This is where I'm confused. It is expressly stated that he stopped because of the 'Dent Act'. I don't like the 8 year gap.
I kind of hate it, but that's the story they wanted to tell.
Alfred even says, "I know, and you lost her. But that's all part of living, sir. But you're not living. You're just waiting, hoping for things to go bad again."

He stopped being Bruce Wayne because he lost Rachel.
Anything we add beyond that is just conjecture.

I get that people say, "This isn't my Batman," but really isn't that the point? There are so many different ways to interpret the character. This is one I truly enjoyed.
This Batman was never actually about stopping the petty crimes or roaming the streets for muggers. He was always about organized crime and then got pushed to dealing with the escalation he actually incited.
I'm glad this crew got to tell their story, and I'm even more happy about them seemingly wrapping it up. It's time (in however many years) for a new vision. Maybe that will be more to your liking, but we can't just say the opposite of what is stated and believe that it's true.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by C. Lee

I don't expect Batman to stop every single crime in Gotham....but you can stop a lot more of them by actually going out and looking. The Batman portrayed in these movies (TDK and TDKR) is not the Batman that I grew up with. The only "symbol" he was before, was a symbol of law stopping crime. That's one of the reasons I am not a fan of them.

The Dent Act made Batman unnecessary. "The streets so clean you'll be getting people for overdue library books." Like Alfred said "Gotham needs your mind, your resources. It doesn't need your body, or your life."

Fair enough that he's not the Batman you grew up with, but that doesn't have any bearing on the quality of the film on its own merits. I, for one, really appreciate Nolan adding that gravitas and understandable goal. The fact that Batman has always just fought criminals constantly with what seemed to be no reasonable goal just made him seem like a straight up psycho. At least here it's humanizing, something crucial to a good film - this Batman does not want to be Batman forever.

__________________
"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." - Aristotle

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBat812

The Dent Act made Batman unnecessary. "The streets so clean you'll be getting people for overdue library books." Like Alfred said "Gotham needs your mind, your resources. It doesn't need your body, or your life."

Fair enough that he's not the Batman you grew up with, but that doesn't have any bearing on the quality of the film on its own merits. I, for one, really appreciate Nolan adding that gravitas and understandable goal. The fact that Batman has always just fought criminals constantly with what seemed to be no reasonable goal just made him seem like a straight up psycho. At least here it's humanizing, something crucial to a good film - this Batman does not want to be Batman forever.

I have many problems with the movie. That "The Dent Act" can clean up the city like that is one of them. People talk about Nolan making "realistic" Batman movies. To me the last 2 movies of the series are more "fantasy" than realistic with how they deal with things.

That this portrayal is not the Batman that I grew up is ONE of the factors that make me not like it. ONE of the factors. But as for my personal feeling on the quality of it as a "film"....I find it has several major problems, and have talked about it last week. Take out Batman....and to me there are still things that make me not like this as a movie.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Funny that they would spend so much time talking about Rachel if it didn't impact Bruce in some way. There is no indication that he gave up the cape/cowl due to her death but I do think her death affected him into being a recluse.

The woman who Bruce loved and who he was going to run to when he gave up the cape and cowl? Why WOULDN'T Rachel play any kind of impact when she died with Bruce not moving on with another life? But that doesn't mean Bruce retired as the Batman because of her death nor does it mean Bruce would become a hermit because of her death. None of those two are the reasons of Rachel's death, only that he didn't ever move on because he didn't find someone else to love. And that's the same for a lot of guys who's not even dressed up as a bat as it's difficult to find someone else to have feelings for. But simply put, it has nothing to do with Bruce giving up the cape and cowl or being a recluse for three years.

That is, imo, probably the biggest thing people think about that makes them not a fan of TDKR.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I feel like Rachel's death was what kept him from moving on after he retired the first time. Her death wasn't responsible for his retirement; the fact that, for once, Batman had completed his goal of keeping Gotham from plunging into a crime-ridden state was what put him into that position. I mean, it's pretty much stated more than once in the film itself.

__________________

If any character has ever earned the right to enjoy a happy retirement, it is Bruce Wayne. Nolan ought to be commended for caring enough about the character and believing enough in his own vision to provide a definitive, satisfying ending to the story of an ordinary man who turned tragedy into the motivation to accomplish something extraordinary.

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Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Why do so many people mistake Batman's retirement being a result of Rachel's death? If Rachel dying was enough to make Batman throw in the towel then he wouldn't have gone after the Joker and stopped his rampage after she died.

The reason Batman was retired is because Harvey Dent's heroic image and legacy cleaned up Gotham's crime so well that Batman wasn't needed any more. Remember this key scene;

Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

Rachel is the reason why Bruce gave up on trying to find himself some kind of normal life after he hung up the cape and cowl. Again two key scenes spell this out;

Bruce: "There's nothing out there for me"
Alfred: "And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl but you never moved on. You never went to find yourself a life. To find someone"
Bruce: "Alfred, I did find someone"
Alfred: "I know, and you lost 'em. But that's all part of living"

Alfred: "You used to talk about finishing. About finding a life beyond that awful cave"
Bruce: "Alfred, Rachel died knowing we had decided to be together. I can't just move on. She didn't. She couldn't"
Alfred: "What if she had?"
Bruce: "She couldn't...I can't change that"
Alfred: "What if before she died she wrote a letter saying she chose Harvey Dent over you.....and what if to spare you pain I burned that letter"
Bruce: "How dare you use Rachel to try to stop me"

The movie makes it very clear, but so many people always say he quit being Batman because Rachel was dead.

Right. He quit being Batman because Gotham didn't need Batman anymore. He quit being Bruce Wayne because of Rachel and the engery project.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Rachel's death is far from any of the main reasons, though. Bruce Wayne would've probably still been out there and about if the energy project didn't fail. Sure, he would be mourning to this day with the death of Rachel, but needless to say, he would've still been out and about if the energy project didn't turn into the dumps.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Rachel's death is far from any of the main reasons, though. Bruce Wayne would've probably still been out there and about if the energy project didn't fail. Sure, he would be mourning to this day with the death of Rachel, but needless to say, he would've still been out and about if the energy project didn't turn into the dumps.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

So Bruce can overcome all the stuff we have seen and yet a failed project is the thing that keeps him down, to me this sort of stuff just seems to lack any strentgh of character and will that Bruce possesses. But later he can overcome being put in prison after defeat, etc. As though his will and determination is just turned on and off as and when it's conveinient to the story.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight08

I feel like Rachel's death was what kept him from moving on after he retired the first time. Her death wasn't responsible for his retirement; the fact that, for once, Batman had completed his goal of keeping Gotham from plunging into a crime-ridden state was what put him into that position. I mean, it's pretty much stated more than once in the film itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Logan

Right. He quit being Batman because Gotham didn't need Batman anymore. He quit being Bruce Wayne because of Rachel and the engery project.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Rachel's death is far from any of the main reasons, though. Bruce Wayne would've probably still been out there and about if the energy project didn't fail. Sure, he would be mourning to this day with the death of Rachel, but needless to say, he would've still been out and about if the energy project didn't turn into the dumps.

What's hilarious is that these are outright said in the film and some people still choose to ignore it. What happened to Nolan beating people over the head with things?
I mean he still does... lol
But how do people miss these kinds of things?
Dislike the film. Whatever. That's all about opinions, and that I can respect.
Don't dislike the film because you didn't understand what happened.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by C. Lee

I have many problems with the movie. That "The Dent Act" can clean up the city like that is one of them. People talk about Nolan making "realistic" Batman movies. To me the last 2 movies of the series are more "fantasy" than realistic with how they deal with things.

That this portrayal is not the Batman that I grew up is ONE of the factors that make me not like it. ONE of the factors. But as for my personal feeling on the quality of it as a "film"....I find it has several major problems, and have talked about it last week. Take out Batman....and to me there are still things that make me not like this as a movie.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by uniqueweasel

So Bruce can overcome all the stuff we have seen and yet a failed project is the thing that keeps him down, to me this sort of stuff just seems to lack any strentgh of character and will that Bruce possesses. But later he can overcome being put in prison after defeat, etc. As though his will and determination is just turned on and off as and when it's conveinient to the story.

Bruce basically destroyed Wayne Enterprises as well by spending most of their money into this project that was then mothballed(which is also mentioned in TDKR). It was more then just destroying Bruce's own ego that he went into hiding. He basically ****ed up his father's company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThreadPool

What's hilarious is that these are outright said in the film and some people still choose to ignore it. What happened to Nolan beating people over the head with things?
I mean he still does... lol
But how do people miss these kinds of things?
Dislike the film. Whatever. That's all about opinions, and that I can respect.Don't dislike the film because you didn't understand what happened.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Bruce basically destroyed Wayne Enterprises as well by spending most of their money into this project that was then mothballed(which is also mentioned in TDKR). It was more then just destroying Bruce's own ego that he went into hiding. He basically ****ed up his father's company.

He destroyed his family home in Batman Begins and nearly lost said company, while at the same time juggling Batman. I just think theres a lot of convenient writing at times in this.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

He was nearly strong armed out of his company. And what i'm saying is if he's so delicate that the failed energy project and money issues bother him to become reclusive, why didn't the destruction of generations of his family history destroyed in his home not bother him.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Actually, in Begins he worked to re-gain his father's company. He had to let his mansion burn to save his guests. There is some convenient fact gathering on here too.

Exactly but my point being surely that would have a huge emotional impact on him too, and he never went reclusive, to the whole of his friends, etc he destroyed his home and was not suitable to run his fathers company, and yet he carried on, without giving up.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I think its all too easy sometimes to write stuff off as people didn't understand the film and thats why they don't like it. Personally I understood it, but in the end, didn't like it as much as the previous two...lol...which I also understood.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I think its all too easy sometimes to write stuff off as people didn't understand the film and thats why they don't like it. Personally I understood it, but in the end, didn't like it as much as the previous two...lol...which I also understood.

Happens all the time on here. If you don't like something that the majority does....it's because you are too stupid to get it like they did. Personal opinion of multitudes of things in a movie doesn't count. You just didn't get it because you were stoopid.

I express my opinion of why I did not like it...and I am not a 56 year old adult with personal opinions, experiences, or knowledge of life....I'm just too damn stupid to get it.

Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:

Originally Posted by C. Lee

Happens all the time on here. If you don't like something that the majority does....it's because you are too stupid to get it like they did. Personal opinion of multitudes of things in a movie doesn't count. You just didn't get it because you were stoopid.

I express my opinion of why I did not like it...and I am not a 56 year old adult with personal opinions, experiences, or knowledge of life....I'm just too damn stupid to get it.