Apparently this issue is still a sticking point for some people so I'd like to request that we revisit it. The rule seemed to make sense when we had more than a dozen people helping us decide on the rules, people we believed would stick around to write afterwards. Now there are literally only three active people on that forum (by active I mean people who have been posting at least once a month if not more so) and two of them are only active in their own respective thread so continuing to limit us on the number of Force users we can have just doesn't make a whole lot of sense at the moment. Now I'm not making this request because I plan to create a whole slew of Jedi out of thin air if the rule is revoked. Many of my characters who were Force Sensitive in the previous timeline are now no longer Force Sensitive and that isn't going to change. I am making this request because I have, to be honest, made a story decision for a character that potentially violates this rule (I say potentially because I have no idea how it will turn out yet and because I believe that being Force Sensitive and a Force User are not the same, but that is an issue I will bring up during discussion if we decide to revisit it). As I said, it was a story decision we made because it was integral to the plot and since that story is one of only two active threads on the forum I would very much like to have permission to continue it. So I am making the request for everyone to please consider changing the rule.

I honestly don't care. I have exactly zero intention of bringing in a Force-sensitive/user, myself. (Of course, my initial intent for Cadden was to not be Force-sensitive, and we all saw how that stuck out. But that was Trai's fault, and he's no longer here, so.... )

So, how this impacts me will be exactly nil. Whatever y'all decide is good by me.

To be honest, I've always seen those as something more for new people, not established board members who we know can be responsible writers. I mean, you're easily one of the most prolific members on the board. I dare anyone to give a good reason why you shouldn't have more than two if it serves the story.

Besides, I already broke that rule as soon as I brought the Leidias family into the new continuity. Haven't heard a peep from anyone since I started the thread four months ago.

When life gives you lemons, you clone those lemons and make super lemons!

To be honest, I've always seen those as something more for new people, not established board members who we know can be responsible writers. I mean, you're easily one of the most prolific members on the board. I dare anyone to give a good reason why you shouldn't have more than two if it serves the story.

Besides, I already broke that rule as soon as I brought the Leidias family into the new continuity. Haven't heard a peep from anyone since I started the thread four months ago.

That's not how it works, I'm afraid. The new rules set applies to everyone, regardless of length of establishment on the boards. No one is "special" because of how long they've been here. There's no language in that rule that could be construed to apply to one set of people as opposed to another set of people. Until the rule is changed, you will need to change the number of characters you have.

The whole purpose of the Jedi rule is the fact that we're assuming there 'are' so very few at this time in the canon universe. I think it strikes a genuine feel for how the Star Wars Universe is portrayed today. Hell, there is only Luke, Ben, Leia and Rey..'at this time' that live, and I have a feeling that number will be down to three by the next movie.

I have to agree. These rules are meant to be clear and defining. There shouldn't be any bending of them based on "status," or at all.

Though Pryde does bring up an interesting question that might pose the necessity to modify the language in the rules. A Force-sensitive character is, in fact, drastically different from a Force-user. Should this limitation apply to both terms? If so, I feel we need to specify that.

Let's say, for example, I chose to bring Cadden forth as a Force-sensitive, but does not use the Force, and decided that I wanted a Jedi Knight in hiding who's training an apprentice. Well, if Cadden isn't actually a Force-user, and is merely sensitive to it, then by using technicalities, I could still get away with it. Do we allow this? Or does it breach the rule established? If so, we either need to reevaluate this technicality, or we need to include it.

My mentality towards that has always been that a Force Sensitive is a Force User. Anakin was Force Sensitive in Phantom Menace, and he was using the Force during the podrace in the movie and before. He simply wasn't trained or knowledgeable that he was using the Force. Doesn't mean he's not a Force user. Force trained, maybe not, but Force user? Definitely.

I 'think' where this is going, is the fact that some members want to RP more than the allotted Force Users, and again I will bring up the fact that when we started this new forum it would be more aligned with the New Canon put forth in the movies and new books. Thus, we have 'few' and very obscure Force Users for the time being until we get a clearer picture.

As of now, the only public Force Users are the ones that I mentioned above. I don't think that is going to change much in VIII...that is just an opinion, I could be wrong. I think we won't have a definitive understanding, and rebirth of the Jedi until IX..perhaps at the end of VIII that might happen as a cliffhanger/grip the audience for the final episode.

Nichalus wrote:The whole purpose of the Jedi rule is the fact that we're assuming there 'are' so very few at this time in the canon universe. I think it strikes a genuine feel for how the Star Wars Universe is portrayed today. Hell, there is only Luke, Ben, Leia and Rey..'at this time' that live, and I have a feeling that number will be down to three by the next movie.

Except that's not true. You also have Snoke and the Knights of Ren, who have at least six members not including Ben. Nothing in canon indicates that they were disbanded after wiping out Luke's students. Maz Kanata has also been confirmed to be Force-sensitive, which means it's more than possible to avoid detection in the new canon. Ben was on the same planet as her and he didn't appear to notice or care about Maz at all. This doesn't even touch on all the Force-users and Force-sensitives outside of the movies in the new canon that still have ambiguous fates. A lot has been touched on in the Clone Wars and Rebels that a movie meant for general audiences wouldn't even begin to cover.

Remember that although the movies are the highest canon, they are also only a very small window into the the larger galaxy. It turned out that Yoda's line about Luke being the last of the Jedi wasn't as definite as it appeared in Legends canon. Frankly, the new canon is even more ambiguous. We know nothing of how many Jedi Luke was training, how he found them, or how exactly they were killed (except that Ben had a big part in it). We don't know if Luke found more candidates that didn't join, if Ben ever knew about them, or if the Knights of Ren have ever left First Order territory to hunt down other Force-sensitives/users.

At the very least, what we do know is that there is a disproportionate number of established Darksiders to Lightsiders/Force-sensitives in canon as it stands during The Force Awakens. One could make a case then that there should be a higher limit on Darksider characters if we're trying to stay true to the new canon. But that's ridiculous if you really think about it. Assuming we upped the limit on Darksiders, here's a scenario to challenge it: what if I have a Force-user character, a Force-sensitive character, and a Darksider? Then what happens if I write a story where that Darksider is redeemed? Does that mean I need to kill one of my other characters to make room for him? Why? What point is there in doing that other than the rules say so there can be only two (ironically, like the Sith).

As it's currently written, this rule fails to take into account a lot of different factors.

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One of my big issues with this rule is that it makes no distinction between main characters, side characters, and antagonists. In other words, if the character will have no impact on anything outside of the thread and/or is going to die at the end, it's still forbidden because there can only be two per person, no questions, no exceptions. Why? What purpose does it serve to limit a member's creativity like that when we should be encouraging people to write now more than ever?

I could maybe understand this rule if we were getting a lot of new people to the board or if the new MBT was expanding at a rapid pace, but that's not happening. And let's be realistic, that's never happening again. The times when we'd get a dozen or more posts each day on the MBT are gone. Like Pryde said, for the past three months it's basically been me, Pryde, and Xalsin doing any kind of substantial activity on the MBT. I'm not pointing fingers, it's just how it is. We've tried getting new members in the past with little to no success and those of us still around are usually more preoccupied with real life to post with the kind of output we used to. Hell, I was MIA for a good chunk of time because of it.

Everyone here is old blood and has proven they know know how to create a good balanced story. No one is going to be a powermonger. All this rule is really doing right now is stifling creativity and showing an undeserved lack of trust in the people who still want to write here.

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All that being said, I actually agree that we should limit how many Force-users are part of the new MBT, but this rule is not the way to do it. Not right now. I think we should trust our members to know what they're doing instead of trying to hold fast to some rule that is far too absolute for a canon we know far too little about. If the day ever comes when we get a lot of new members, then I'd be up for reinstating it, but right now? It's hurting us more than helping us.

When life gives you lemons, you clone those lemons and make super lemons!

As the rule states, that numerical limit can change once we get more information, which we haven't yet. A large portion of this was put in place with a "wait and see" mentality to see what happens with Episode VIII.

Guys, we were all here back when we were roleplaying in the Rebellion era back when the only canon that existed was Luke you are the last and ONLY Jedi. We didn't have a rule stating there was a limit to the number of Force Users back then so why do we need one now? Furthermore, Halo and I have been part of this community for more than a decade, we're both responsible writers and we're not trying to game the system. As I said the character in question was not originally meant to be Force Sensitive but became such as it was necessary for the story. There was one time, not that long ago when we moved away from having so many rules so we could have more freedom to tell great stories. When we were initially writing up the proposal for the new galaxy we agreed we had to have some rules, rules that were proposed to prevent people from fighting over things like planets or governments which has been a problem in the past. However, no one has ever argued that there were too many Jedi, even back on the SOE forums where there SHOULD have been NO Jedi.

Lastly, and I'll leave you with this, I'm sure I have pointed this out before but when Disney was asked about Luke being the ONLY Jedi left their response was, "That depends on your definition of Jedi." So even Disney is leaving open the possibility that there are other Force Users out there.

Also, Episode VIII isn't going to give us any new information. Rian Johnson had said the main focus of the movie will be Luke's relationship with Rei. At best we find out her history and a bit more about the massacre but the movie's narrative is going to be laser focused and most likely give us very little information about the broader galaxy. That goes for Episode IX as well. The saga is focused entirely on the Skywalkers, any information about the galaxy is going to come in the form of novels so waiting for the movies doesn't make sense.

Pryde wrote:Guys, we were all here back when we were roleplaying in the Rebellion era back when the only canon that existed was Luke you are the last and ONLY Jedi. We didn't have a rule stating there was a limit to the number of Force Users back then so why do we need one now? Furthermore, Halo and I have been part of this community for more than a decade, we're both responsible writers and we're not trying to game the system. As I said the character in question was not originally meant to be Force Sensitive but became such as it was necessary for the story. There was one time, not that long ago when we moved away from having so many rules so we could have more freedom to tell great stories. When we were initially writing up the proposal for the new galaxy we agreed we had to have some rules, rules that were proposed to prevent people from fighting over things like planets or governments which has been a problem in the past. However, no one has ever argued that there were too many Jedi, even back on the SOE forums where there SHOULD have been NO Jedi.

Talking about the number of force users was part of the discussion.

Honestly, I'm also a little put out by the blase attitude towards the rules demonstrated. Just because someone think it's wrong, they're going to go against what was decided? Without bringing it up with the story coordinator or anyone else? So what's next, we decided as a group that no one can have a Master level character? I guess that's going to just be ignored because someone feels its wrong or impedes whatever it is that they want to do?

I told Pryde this yesterday, I couldn't care less what the rule is, only that it's followed. If someone doesn't like the rule or doesn't think it fair, that's fine, but that doesn't give them the ability to unilaterally throw the rule out.

The Jedi Rule, which was part of the Final Proposal, was voted on, and if I remember correctly, it passed without a single negative vote not quite a year ago.

I understand you want to establish your new characters in the New MBT, but those were the rules that we all agreed on. The rule remains in effect for the time being. If you have more than the allotted amount, then you need to stop.

Hal, I'm not going to split hairs over the subject of 'what ifs'. Though, you do bring up a valid point about using another force user above and beyond your allotted ones. My opinion on that is, if the extra force character will be used in your own story, and does not go beyond it...I see no reason why not, but the final decision I will leave to the Story Coordinator.

But one thing that I will not find exceptible under the current rules, is an entire group/council/rulership, or family, of Force Users under the control of 1 member.

If you want that...well...the old MBT is still available. But remember, you all voted on it, and that is the way it is for the time being.

Some of the best and most unique ideas this board has ever had came about because we didn't limit each other's creativity to these kinds of extremes. Slavishly following this rule is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Every rule should have breathing room. This one has none.

To quote some other rules:

If a member absolutely knows...KNOWS...that they are creating a story that will not drastically alter our little piece of Star Wars Universe, they don't have to consult the SC (Story Coordinator). Write your story and have fun. 'Drastically alters' is defined as some event that you are creating will not alter the current Structure of the Star Wars Universe as we know it (Blowing up Canon/EU Worlds, killing Canon Characters, Altering the Political or Territorial Boundaries, Bringing in Powerful Weapons and/or Abilities, etc...

I think the key words in that are "have fun". Writers should be allowed to have fun. If none of these Force-user side characters appear outside of the thread they are in, and they don't effect the galaxy around them in any meaningful way, then what's the harm?

In any case, I'm going to go ahead and say that an argument is being made that this rule needs to either be excised or rewritten to be more flexible.

Last edited by Halomek on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

When life gives you lemons, you clone those lemons and make super lemons!

Why are you saying it like it was the Jedi rule we were voting on? It was the proposal as a whole and when the Jedi rule was discussed I fought against it. I wasn't the only one who fought against it either, there was opposition to the rule but in the end we all voted on the proposal because we wanted to write. So saying that it passed without any negative feedback is entirely inaccurate because I know for a fact there was.

Pryde, no one told you to do what you did. You guys went ahead and did it. If the rule needs to be changed, fine. But I also direct you to this:

There is 'NO' Statute of Limitations on violating the rules concerning the content of your stories on the MBT. That way, the argument, "I've been doing this for a day/week/month/year and no one stopped me!" doesn't hold water, for the very legitimate reason that the Moderators/Story Coordinator can't read everything all the time. If you post something without speaking with the SC that is found to be an issue, and is deemed to have violated the above mentioned conditions, your post will have to be amended and/or removed (by yourself or a Moderator).

Thus, telling me that you've been doing it for X number of months has no bearing on this at all.

Pryde wrote:Mir, I just want to write the damned story we've been writing for six months now. Its one of only TWO active threads on the forum and telling us to stop writing it now is so outrageously unfair.

So you want to write a story that you 'knew' you would be violating the rules six months ago? Or was it during the course of writing this story you decided that you need more Force Users, and the hell with the rule?

Activity is a moot point, its like your asking for a door prize for being the most active. I'm having alot of stress during the end of year activities at work...plus I'm old (beat Mir, Cadd and Jag to that come back) so my creativity is quite low at the moment, but I'll get to it in due time. Am I to be looked down upon by you for not being active as much as you are?

Pryde wrote:Why are you saying it like it was the Jedi rule we were voting on? It was the proposal as a whole and when the Jedi rule was discussed I fought against it. I wasn't the only one who fought against it either, there was opposition to the rule but in the end we all voted on the proposal because we wanted to write. So saying that it passed without any negative feedback is entirely inaccurate because I know for a fact there was.

The rules were discussed, and approved by a unanimous vote. You can't just do what you want and say to hell with the rules. Murder is against the law, and you see what happens when people say 'to hell with the rules'. Extreme example I know, but it serves the purpose.

Why do you always villainize me? Why is it whenever anyone does anything on this forum it's always about gaining more power? Do you guys even know me at all? I don't care about having more power. I'm a writer, I just want to write and if the story dictates I go a certain direction then I will go that direction. I didn't decide to make Hirai force sensitive just so I can have another Jedi, I made her force sensitive because it was INTEGRAL to the plot and I never intended to have her trained in the Jedi arts as per the rules. Then I find out that apparently there's no difference between Force Sensitive and Force User which is news to me. So Anakin before training was a Force User? Rey before training was a Force User? Luke before training was a Force User? Is a Force Sensitive who never trains at all still a Force User? I call BS on that...

If a member absolutely knows...KNOWS...that they are creating a story that will not drastically alter our little piece of Star Wars Universe, they don't have to consult the SC (Story Coordinator). Write your story and have fun. 'Drastically alters' is defined as some event that you are creating will not alter the current Structure of the Star Wars Universe as we know it (Blowing up Canon/EU Worlds, killing Canon Characters, Altering the Political or Territorial Boundaries, Bringing in Powerful Weapons and/or Abilities, etc...

I think the key words in that are "have fun". Writers should be allowed to have fun. If none of these Force-user side characters appear outside of the thread they are in, and they don't effect the galaxy around them in any meaningful way, then what's the harm?

In any case, I'm going to go ahead and say that an argument is being made that this rule needs to either be excised or rewritten to be more flexible.

It's simple Hal, it violates the rules of limited Jedi for the time being.

Pryde wrote:So let's forget all discussion about potential what ifs and maybes and hold everyone accountable to a rule that's based on potential what ifs and maybes? Does anyone else see the hypocrisy?

No. Its the rule Pryde, and until we gather more concrete information, and not hypothesis, then that is the way it will be. As I stated before the old MBT is still available to do what you're wanting. The whole purpose of the new MBT was to stay more in line with the new canon, within reason, until we can grow the new forum as the movies and books do.

Pryde wrote:You know what fine, fuck it. Jess is gone now forget it. She's in a dead thread anyway and I'm not holding out hope that Green Squadron is going anywhere ever. Now I'm within the damned rules...

Threads stall for a number of reason Pryde, but i've told Mir to get it back on track until I can get more time to get some creativity. It is not dead, perhaps because you find that people aren't posting at 'your' level at this time, you might be seeing it that way. But you've had your bad creative times and dropped off for months due to whatever was going on in your life. Just sayin...

This whole thing is based on hypothesis. We're forbidding Force Sensitives based on the hypothesis that Anakin may have used the Force or that Rey may not have had training. All we have in regards to either of those is Qui-Gon saying, "He sees things before they happen," which I argue is not using the Force. Just because the kid has faster reflexes doesn't necessarily mean he's consciously using the Force and in regards to Rey we just don't know if that's true but just in case it is let's count it anyway and say it's true because it fits with the whole rule narrative and forget any other interpretation ever.

Pryde wrote:You know what fine, fuck it. Jess is gone now forget it. She's in a dead thread anyway and I'm not holding out hope that Green Squadron is going anywhere ever. Now I'm within the damned rules...

Threads stall for a number of reason Pryde, but i've told Mir to get it back on track until I can get more time to get some creativity. It is not dead, perhaps because you find that people aren't posting at 'your' level at this time, you might be seeing it that way. But you've had your bad creative times and dropped off for months due to whatever was going on in your life. Just sayin...

Well, I can't keep Jess and Hirai apparently and I honestly do NOT want Hirai trained in the Force. As I have said and keep saying I only made her Force Sensitive because it was necessary for the story and stop trying to paint me like I'm some kind of selfish bastard. When I was approached about this whole thing the character we were discussing was not even mine. I didn't even HAVE to draw attention to Hirai but I did so anyway because I KNEW there would be blow back from this and I was trying to protect that other poster from taking the brunt of it. If I really was as selfish as you seem to think I am then wouldn't I have left my part of this out completely?

The overall proposal, as it stood, was voted on. It passed. Unanimously. Either you voted for it, or you abstained. If you voted for it, you have no ground to stand on. If you abstained, you have a bit more of a precarious ledge. Because you agree by participating in that forum to be bound by the rules of the forum. Everyone who posts in that that forum does so with that knowledge. You, Halomek, or anyone else don't have the ability to disregard those rules because they're not convenient for you.

Furthermore, while yes, you don't have to check with the SC on every little thing, this isn't the first time that you and I had this conversation regarding the number of Forcers you controlled, remember? So when you made the decision to do what you did, and Halomek made that decision, you knew better. You knew in the very least to talk to me. Maybe not make a full fledged thread, but talk to me. And I understand you didn't think that Force-sensitive meant Force user. That's understandable.

But instead, I have a former moderator and a former moderator/administrator who decided that following the rules don't apply to them because they're special and have been around for a while. In the case of Halomek, this was either not knowing the rules (which he should have familiarized himself with when he decided to come back) and then deciding once he found them out that they don't apply to him because he disagrees with them, or knowing the rules and intentionally disregarding them anyway. On top of that, I'm having both of you tell me that it should be okay because you've already been writing the thread for X number of months when the rules also specifically say that that isn't a usable defense.

Again, I don't care what the rules are. If it's 50 Forcers, unlimited, 0, I don't care. All I care about is that the rules that the community agreed on are followed. Because I'm playing by those rules. Nich is as well. Everyone else is. We're finding ways to be creative within the narrative frame that everyone agreed to be bound by.

And BASED on the hypothesis that we KNOW, is the whole reason for the limited Force Users! I could hypothesis that the only Force Users in the CURRENT CANON are Ben, Rey, Leia, Luke, Snokes (and that is questionable since we haven't SEEN him use any Force Powers)...the Knights of Ren have not been PROVEN to be Force Users. Finn may be able to swing a light saber, but has shown no abilities in the Force.

And the compromise is...we 'limit' the amount of Force Users 'for the time being'. You have no patience is the main theme here. You want it NOW, and because people aren't moving fast enough for you, you say 'fuck it' to the rules, and 'fuck it' when you don't get your way.

Yes its frustrating when a thread slows down, but RL takes front row center before anything else, some member will get distracted, worn out by RL events, or just plain have a creative blockade. Instead of showing support and understanding, you call it a 'dead thread' and insult everyone in it by stating you're "not holding out hope that Green Squadron is going anywhere ever." That part was a bit uncalled for.

The overall proposal, as it stood, was voted on. It passed. Unanimously. Either you voted for it, or you abstained. If you voted for it, you have no ground to stand on. If you abstained, you have a bit more of a precarious ledge. Because you agree by participating in that forum to be bound by the rules of the forum. Everyone who posts in that that forum does so with that knowledge. You, Halomek, or anyone else don't have the ability to disregard those rules because they're not convenient for you.

Furthermore, while yes, you don't have to check with the SC on every little thing, this isn't the first time that you and I had this conversation regarding the number of Forcers you controlled, remember? So when you made the decision to do what you did, and Halomek made that decision, you knew better. You knew in the very least to talk to me. Maybe not make a full fledged thread, but talk to me. And I understand you didn't think that Force-sensitive meant Force user. That's understandable.

But instead, I have a former moderator and a former moderator/administrator who decided that following the rules don't apply to them because they're special and have been around for a while. In the case of Halomek, this was either not knowing the rules (which he should have familiarized himself with when he decided to come back) and then deciding once he found them out that they don't apply to him because he disagrees with them, or knowing the rules and intentionally disregarding them anyway. On top of that, I'm having both of you tell me that it should be okay because you've already been writing the thread for X number of months when the rules also specifically say that that isn't a usable defense.

Again, I don't care what the rules are. If it's 50 Forcers, unlimited, 0, I don't care. All I care about is that the rules that the community agreed on are followed. Because I'm playing by those rules. Nich is as well. Everyone else is. We're finding ways to be creative within the narrative frame that everyone agreed to be bound by.

You guys are sidestepping the original issue proposed at the top of this thread. My request was for the community to consider "changing" the rule. So far we have not heard from the community beyond Cadden. This whole thread has been about you and Nich reinforcing the rule and ignoring any discussion or even the possibility that it needs to be revised. So I reiterate, I want to hear from the community. Should the rule be changed? I would like to urge people to reconsider it as I feel it is unnecessary and creates too much overhead. The Story Coordinator has enough to worry about without trolling everyone's threads and counting their damned Force Users.

Nichalus wrote:Yes its frustrating when a thread slows down, but RL takes front row center before anything else, so member will get distracted, worn out by RL events, or just plain have a creative blockade. Instead of showing support and understanding, you call it a 'dead thread' and insult everyone in it by stating you're "not holding out hope that Green Squadron is going anywhere ever." That part was a bit uncalled for.

Maybe so and I apologize. That remark was made out of frustration because I just don't feel like anyone is listening to the arguments I'm making. I fought you guys on this Jedi rule before, I had some help but not enough people seemed to care either way so the rule went forward. Now the sentiment seems to be that because it passed unanimously my arguments are no longer valid. Do you have any idea how frustrating that sentiment is. So we're going to continue to ignore my concerns just because not enough people felt strongly enough about it to voice an opinion? I will honestly tell you right now that if the rule is lifted nothing will even change. I have no intention of making any of my other characters Force Sensitive or even bringing back any of my older Jedi characters. Caitlyn and Adrian are gone for good, Faye's not Force Sensitive anymore, I'm not bringing back any of my other padawan characters. My Sylarian race is getting modified to no longer be hyper sensitive to the Force as soon as I can get around to reworking it (I have ideas I just don't know how to organize them yet ) and if things had continued as they were without any issue Hirai would never once have used a Force Push ever cause she's not my Jedi character, she was never meant to be. Yet because she's labeled Force Sensitive it's an issue and I just can't see why. So a wiki article someone other than Disney wrote is now judge, jury and executioner?