Wrong actions aren't wrong when they are only committed against one person. That is BR's reasoning. We know you've always had problems with quantifiers so don't sweat your lack of clarity here as well.

BR's 'hate' isn't "at the type of irrational level where it would justify murder."

Did you even watch the show? I just got to that part in it and in context the phrase is not outrageous whatsoever. They were just talking about how Palin thought Paul Revere was actually warning the British, (guffaw), and how this ridiculous bus tour is just a disingenuous presidential campaign disguised as a family vacation--and that sadly it may work because of the way Americans eat up reality TV. They discuss who else is running but finally Maher states that at the end of the day, even if Palin is running against Obama, there's a legitimate chance Obama doesn't get reelected if the economy is still in the shitter.

So, let's add the context into the quote.

If Sarah Palin, the retarded twat who thinks Paul Revere warned the F*KING BRITISH, actually has a shot at becoming the president, well,anyone could be president of this dumb f*cking country.

Boston University history professor Brendan McConville said, Basically when Paul Revere was stopped by the British, he did say to them, Look, there is a mobilization going on that youll be confronting, and the British are aware as theyre marching down the countryside, they hear church bells ringing she was right about that and warning shots being fired. Thats accurate.

Oh, and secondly: Is there now a law that prevents Sarah Palin from traveling the country? You don't like it because she's Sarah Palin. And that's the only reason.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

It was nice to see a moderator trying to moderate the conversation around here. Interesting that after the moderation that others stepped up their antics to level 10.

Bill Maher is a caricature of a thought process. Anyone giving him any credence should really not. As many have stated before, he is a comedian commenting in comedic fashion on current events. He is going to go for the stupid comments and the exaggerated commentary as it is his schtick. Did he call the entire country stupid. Yes, even in context he did. He is clearly also very frustrated that more people do not agree with his world view. However, is he actually anti-American? I doubt it. He is not that funny to me, and he has a definite agenda politically that he uses his "bully pulpit" to push, but he is not anti-American. If you disagree with him, fine. But the level to which this conversation has digressed is out of control.

And it seems to be happening with every thread. Nobody can simply disagree, they have to destroy the others argument, obliterate their views, belittle their belief, personally attack their person and if they can get in jabs about their sexuality, physical prowess or personal life, mores the better, \

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

This whole premise is bullshit. "Anti-American" ONLY means wanting America to become a worse place for Americans, or, possibly, for America to do worse than a global competitor, or for America to change into a place that no longer resembles America as one can possibly interpret is as the Founding Fathers envisioned. Neither you, nor I ,nor Bill Maher are in any way "anti-American".

Saying America sucks or Americans are stupid, and wanting America to be better than it currently is can be fiercely pro-American.

George Bush is not anti-American. Nor is Barack Obama. Nor is Ron Paul, or Dennis Kucinich.

You're making this idea up because of your partisan nature.

Trashing America and Americans=pro-America!

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

BR's 'hate' isn't "at the type of irrational level where it would justify murder."

When you say that, you're being hysterical.

Don't be hysterical.

You fail to see that you are worried about the level of rationality when the bad reasoning take no such measures into account. The reasoning simply states that no level of rationality or irrationality is necessary to measure due to the fact that it doesn't count when it is a single party versus a group.

A single racist man calls a black woman several epithets. It isn't really hate because it was only one woman.

A couple of men follow a gay man and call after him with several homophobic slurs. It isn't real hate because it was only one gay man.

A forum poster calls a female former governor a "retarded twat" and per him, it isn't really hate because it was only one woman.

Think about what you are defending. Really to label yourself as an arbiter of rationality when speaking up for such actions is the height of irony. To decide on such matters you must have the trait being judged and by defending it, it's clear you don't.

1. Stating an observation (or claim of an observation) of a negative trait about something doesn't necessarily make one anti-that thing. The claim could be wrong of course, but making the claim doesn't, in an of itself, make the claiming person against (anti) that thing.

2. When speaking of America one should be careful because people often conflate at least a couple of different things into this broad label:

a. The American people.
b. The American government.
c. The American idea.

3. I'm not sure Maher is necessarily 100% wrong here. The American people often, collectively, behave in some dumb ways. Re-electing Bush and electing Obama are only two most obvious and recent examples. They are often taken in by slick marketing, fallacious propositions, vacuous speeches and eloquent speakers. The American public, collectively, is often both hypocritical and schizophrenic. It has an incredibly short memory and often a very simplistic appraisal of complex issues. Having said all that, I don't know that this is an ailment limited to the U.S. Though perhaps it is.

Of course I was being a bit snarky and had a couple of meanings. First is that some think if you are opposed to the state/government (in America) you are anti-American. The challenge here is that who claims this about you (or me) often depends on who's in power. For example, questioning authority and the government was a good thing when Bush was in office, but now...well...not as much. Same thing in reverse. This, perhaps, is yet another indication of the collective stupidity of the American people. Second, if most or all Americans are statists, and you are anti-statist, then you might be anti-American.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru

I believe the U.S. has become an aggressive, authoritarian, imperialist nation-state and I am opposed to that.

I agree and I am also opposed to this. See my previous post about the three different American things. Here, again, your focus is on the American government as opposed to the American people or the "American idea."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru

Does that make me anti-American?

I think it makes you very American in the "American idea" sense of that word.

You fail to see that you are worried about the level of rationality when the bad reasoning take no such measures into account. The reasoning simply states that no level of rationality or irrationality is necessary to measure due to the fact that it doesn't count when it is a single party versus a group.

A single racist man calls a black woman several epithets. It isn't really hate because it was only one woman.

A couple of men follow a gay man and call after him with several homophobic slurs. It isn't real hate because it was only one gay man.

A forum poster calls a female former governor a "retarded twat" and per him, it isn't really hate because it was only one woman.

Think about what you are defending. Really to label yourself as an arbiter of rationality when speaking up for such actions is the height of irony. To decide on such matters you must have the trait being judged and by defending it, it's clear you don't.

Stop defending hate MJ. That is a profoundly irrational action.

That's all irrelevant crap, really.

You wrote that BR's 'hate' was

Quote:

at the type of irrational level where it would justify murder.

...and that's a totally hysterical thing to say. Really.

You can keep defending it, but I'll just imagine the puddle of piss you're standing in getting bigger and bigger.

It can be, when your wish is to make America a better place. Is that too hard for you to comprehend?

That's not what Bill Maher said at all, and I think you know it. He didn't say "there are a lot of things wrong in this country and lot of people that don't understand out political system. which is why X, Y or Z happens." He derided the nation. That's not wishing for America to be a better place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru

It is a valid question, isn't it?

I believe the U.S. has become an aggressive, authoritarian, imperialist nation-state and I am opposed to that.

Does that make me anti-American?

I guess it comes down to how you define what it means to be American.

Now THIS is what tonton means, which is completely different. You don't want the country you love going down this road. Totally different sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970

There are a couple of things here:

1. Stating an observation (or claim of an observation) of a negative trait about something doesn't necessarily make one anti-that thing. The claim could be wrong of course, but making the claim doesn't, in an of itself, make the claiming person against (anti) that thing.

2. When speaking of America one should be careful because people often conflate at least a couple of different things into this broad label:

a. The American people.
b. The American government.
c. The American idea.

3. I'm not sure Maher is necessarily 100% wrong here. The American people often, collectively, behave in some dumb ways. Re-electing Bush and electing Obama are only two most obvious and recent examples. They are often taken in by slick marketing, fallacious propositions, vacuous speeches and eloquent speakers. The American public, collectively, is often both hypocritical and schizophrenic. It has an incredibly short memory and often a very simplistic appraisal of complex issues. Having said all that, I don't know that this is an ailment limited to the U.S. Though perhaps it is.

The thing is his comment can be taken to mean the American people are dumb, and that our entire system/way of life is dumb. This is no different than the Dixie Chicks lead singer saying "I hope we lose" wrt Iraq. Are we going to try and explain her comment as well? I can hear it now: "But SDW, she was only trying to say she didn't want the country she loves going to war."

As for Americans in general, I don't think I would use the word "dumb" for most (they are obviously out there, however). I think what you're referring to is the mood of the country. We seem to be a very moody country in many ways. Both good and bad times are going to last forever in many people's minds. Like all humans, we tend to act on emotion at times. This is not lack of intelligence. I think that your example of electing Obama is one of these times. Many people got caught up in the energy, the personality, the Hope and Change, and even that we might elect our first black President. Many smart people ignored his radical associations, statements and lack of executive experience. We'll have to disagree on Bush. Elections come down to a choice. In my view he was a much better choice than was Kerry.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Maher likes it when people disagree with him. It happens all the time on his show, and he does not insult his guests when it happens.

He just insults ignorant people who try to run for president, and the people who vote for ignorant people.

Really? Can you point me to his long list of John Edward voter jokes? How about Biden voters, or Kucinich voters? I mean getting indicted for hiding you mistress and love child from your wife dying of cancer WHILE running for president sounds like some pretty ignorant behavior. Who did he slam for not seeing through that nonsense when the National Enquire was trying to put it on a plate for anyone who would listen?

Really? Can you point me to his long list of John Edward voter jokes? How about Biden voters, or Kucinich voters? I mean getting indicted for hiding you mistress and love child from your wife dying of cancer WHILE running for president sounds like some pretty ignorant behavior. Who did he slam for not seeing through that nonsense when the National Enquire was trying to put it on a plate for anyone who would listen?

Her gender is irrelevant. So it is not sexist to point out that Sarah Palin is a fucking witless, poorly-informed, self-serving populist demagogue twat who deserves nothing but scorn.

...

Let me ask you...how do you know that? That is clearly the media's characterization of her. I don't know if I would want her to be President, but I don't think she is stupid or ill-informed at all. It's not surprising, though, that this is the characterization...because it's the same for almost all well-known Republicans. They called Ford, Reagan and both Bush's stupid. But Clinton? He was a genius. It's an old tale. Meanwhile, this "moron" Sarah Palin has the entire mainstream media guessing what the hell is going on. This "idiot" seems to be outsmarting a lot of people.

Oh, and calling her a "twat" is absolutely sexist.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Incorrect. The midnight ride was covert. Yes, he attempted to bluff some British guards into letting him go. But no, he did not ride through the streets ringing bells, causing a ruckus, warning the British of their impending doom and how strong American forces were. Sarah Palin clearly implied that Paul Revere effectively rode through the countryside banging pans together shouting "YOU CAN TAKE OUR LIVES, BUT YOU CAN NEVER TAKE OUR FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEDOM!!!!!" And that is 100% bullshit.

And either you are a partisan hack, duped by obvious bullshit, too illiterate to comprehend the written account of the events, or some combination thereof.

As a derogatory insult, a pejorative meaning a fool, synonymous with the word twit - 'You are a real twat and a half' (often used in the UK)

Don't be such a twat. Note, when my sister is being especially annoying, I often call her a dick--not to be ironic, but because she's acting like a fucking dick. Sarah Palin is acting like a fucking twat.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

I could give crap about him knocking John Edwards. He was knocking American voters for even considering Palin. That's very different.

I want something along the lines of... and you'll pardon me since I'm not as well practiced at this as BR and MJ.....

Well President Obama took the hope and left us nothing but change. He started out with 7.5% unemployment and gave us never ending 9% unemployment, annual trillion dollar deficits, wars galore and couldn't even get his ass invited to royal wedding despite promising them a nice iPod Touch filled with video of him making jump shots. Whoever is retarded enough to reelect this fucktard should probably send their pictures in to Homeland Security. They're a terrorist threat through their shear stupidity.

Oh and piss, piss, urine stain, piss piss....penis or something like that at the end.

As a derogatory insult, a pejorative meaning a fool, synonymous with the word twit - 'You are a real twat and a half' (often used in the UK)

Don't be such a twat. Note, when my sister is being especially annoying, I often call her a dick--not to be ironic, but because she's acting like a fucking dick. Sarah Palin is acting like a fucking twat.

I just call all my family members BR's when they are acting like stupid enough to pass for an Obama voter. The archaic use relates to cottage cheese and other dairy products but the modern slang usage relates to release of bowels.

I could give crap about him knocking John Edwards. He was knocking American voters for even considering Palin. That's very different.

I want something along the lines of... and you'll pardon me since I'm not as well practiced at this as BR and MJ.....

Well President Obama took the hope and left us nothing but change. He started out with 7.5% unemployment and gave us never ending 9% unemployment, annual trillion dollar deficits, wars galore and couldn't even get his ass invited to royal wedding despite promising them a nice iPod Touch filled with video of him making jump shots. Whoever is retarded enough to reelect this fucktard should probably send their pictures in to Homeland Security. They're a terrorist threat through their shear stupidity.

Oh and piss, piss, urine stain, piss piss....penis or something like that at the end.

Sometimes you just can't top the original. I never would have thought of socks AND knickers. I am but Ke$ha to your Britney Spears, MJ.

I just call all my family members BR's when they are acting like stupid enough to pass for an Obama voter. The archaic use relates to cottage cheese and other dairy products but the modern slang usage relates to release of bowels.

Quote:

I just call all my family members BR's when they are acting like stupid enough to pass for an Obama voter.

It's better than voting for the current crop of witless, winning means everything never mind problems this country has we gotta get rid of that Obama guy Republicans.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

Incorrect. The midnight ride was covert. Yes, he attempted to bluff some British guards into letting him go. But no, he did not ride through the streets ringing bells, causing a ruckus, warning the British of their impending doom and how strong American forces were. Sarah Palin clearly implied that Paul Revere effectively rode through the countryside banging pans together shouting "YOU CAN TAKE OUR LIVES, BUT YOU CAN NEVER TAKE OUR FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEDOM!!!!!" And that is 100% bullshit.

And either you are a partisan hack, duped by obvious bullshit, too illiterate to comprehend the written account of the events, or some combination thereof.

Watch what she said. Tell me with a straight face that what I said isn't true.

I just watched it. What she said is mostly accurate. He did warn the British and did make it clear we were mobilizing. Obviously the bell-ringing was to alert our militia. She says it in a clumsy way, but inferring anything beyond that is really up to the listener.

That brings us to the more important issue, which is the media double-standard. In other words, sure...her statement COULD be taken the way you spell it out, but why? Only those with an agenda and who seek to add to their "stupid" characterization would take it that way. She gets no benefit of the doubt because she's Sarah Palin, and because she's a conservative. If there were a Democrat, it would all be explained away. Then we'd hear how stupid her detractors were.

Here's my question: Do you honestly think she doesn't know what Paul Revere's ride was all about?

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Well, I assume there's a perfectly logical explanation that goes something like this:

Obama (or Clinton) is obviously intelligent and knowledgeable so any so-called "gaffes" are merely the result of an innocent mis-speak that often happens to any human-being in public speaking situations.

Reagan (or Ford or Bush or McCain or Palin) is obviously stupid so all so-called gaffes are a clear indication of their general ignorance and stupidity.

I just watched it. What she said is mostly accurate. He did warn the British and did make it clear we were mobilizing. Obviously the bell-ringing was to alert our militia. She says it in a clumsy way, but inferring anything beyond that is really up to the listener.

That brings us to the more important issue, which is the media double-standard. In other words, sure...her statement COULD be taken the way you spell it out, but why? Only those with an agenda and who seek to add to their "stupid" characterization would take it that way. She gets no benefit of the doubt because she's Sarah Palin, and because she's a conservative. If there were a Democrat, it would all be explained away. Then we'd hear how stupid her detractors were.

Here's my question: Do you honestly think she doesn't know what Paul Revere's ride was all about?

The problem isn't the gaffe. The problem is she went to defend the gaffe in a Fox News interview the next day. She claimed she said nothing wrong and that she was factually correct. That's bullshit.

Obama did not go on CNN the next day and say "I KNOW MY AMERICAN HISTORY, THAT'S A GOTCHA QUESTION AND THERE CLEARLY ARE 60 STATES!"

Gaffe--shit happens.

Defending the shit out of the gaffe and trying to pass it off as the truth--FUCKING TWATISH BEHAVIOR!

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

I left Biden alone. I mean that's just too easy. I kinda assume the Democrats also know he's an idiot. Sorta like the idiot uncle that everyone still loves and invites to the family functions...but they don't really take him seriously at all.

I left Biden alone. I mean that's just too easy. I kinda assume the Democrats also know he's an idiot. Sorta like the idiot uncle that everyone still loves and invites to the family functions...but they don't really take him seriously at all.

The propaganda wing of the state (mainstream media) doesn't even want to cover him anymore because it's virtually impossible to explain away his gaffes.

Does he defend the gaffes after and claim them to be truth? Had Sarah Palin come on the next day and said "Whoops, I got caught up in the patriotic moment and misspoke. Paul Revere's famous midnight ride was a covert one to warn the Americans." That would actually be admirable. It would show a humility and a willingness to learn. What she did shows hubris and willful ignorance.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Does he defend the gaffes after and claim them to be truth? Had Sarah Palin come on the next day and said "Whoops, I got caught up in the patriotic moment and misspoke. Paul Revere's famous midnight ride was a covert one to warn the Americans." That would actually be admirable. It would show a humility and a willingness to learn. What she did shows hubris and willful ignorance.

I don't think you want to shift the debate to questions about humility and arrogance, hubris, willful ignorance or even willingness to learn. Obama is on even thinner ice there.

Hey, now. Let's not forget what Joe Biden said about Obama:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." –Joe Biden, referring to Barack Obama at the beginning of the 2008 Democratic primary campaign, Jan. 31, 2007