Saturday, March 26, 2011

Home Run King Barry Bonds is in the news again; however, this time, he may go to jail for lying about his use of steroids. For some reason, the theoretical and practical attitudes of our readers toward cheating (which arguably is a form of deceit, of which "lying" is a subset) differed dramatically from the responses we received during our prior effort to delve into the issue of honesty. Consequently, we are re-visiting our original post on the subject to see what happens when we separate the issue of honesty from the issue of steroid use.

The Laughingman and the Logistician have been friends for years. The Laughingman has laughed out of loud at some of the Logistician’s antics. He has also expressed bewilderment following comments by the Logistician, when there were highly desirable women in the room.

He would shake his head, and ask, “What in the world made you say that?” The Logistician would reply, “It’s the truth," which one would expect people to respect.

In case you haven’t figured out who is the more practical of the two, and who usually got the gal, there’s another Logistician story of note. He once had this girlfriend, who was stunning in every aspect imaginable. One day, she asked him whether he loved her. He replied in a perfunctory fashion, “Why yes, dear.”

But then she followed by asking, “But do you love me?”

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All of his male buddies have since said that all he had to do was to simply say, “Yes.” (Coincidentally, as have his female friends.) But he didn't.

His response, after pausing no less, was, “What’s the definition of the second love which distinguishes it from the first?”

To all who later questioned the wisdom of his choice, he calmly stated, “I was placed in a situation where I was asked to respond to something I did not understand. For me to have said ‘yes’ would have been a lie, without a definition being provided.”

There is a logical explanation for this madness. You see, he was screwed up way early in life. Not only did he have traditional societal, familial, and religious forces suggesting that he always tell the truth, but he also attended West Point. The Honor Code there prescribed that he, “not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those that do.”

He has tried to apply that principle (minus the toleration part) to his life, albeit not always successfully. However, he’s tried. One of his favorite quotes is from former Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura: “When you tell the truth, you don’t have to have a good recollection of what you previously said.”

And so it was with a great deal of consternation that the Logistician recently found himself in a heated conversation with a valued friend of 35 years, as to the responses one should provide to senior citizen relatives whose mental faculties are declining.

The friend argued that “a game” should be played with the relative, since that provides comfort, and the truth need not be told. He said that it was “unnecessary.” The friend also extended this reasoning to raising young children.

The next day, the Logistician shared this exchange with another mutual friend of 35 years. She suggested that the truth can shatter someone’s delicate perception of the world, and promptly supported the position of the first friend.

It made him wonder whether there are ends sufficiently important to justify out right lying. He also wondered whether there are dangers, so “clear and present,” to support such action. He thought about this a lot during the recent presidential campaigns: Is winning more important than telling the truth?

(Frankly, we’ve reached a point in our society where many aren’t quite sure what to believe from some purported news sources anymore.)

Back to the Logistician, he has always contended that when asked a specific question, he is required to provide a truthful response.

On occasion, he has recognized the value of silence, or momentary evasiveness, by posing, “Do you really want to ask that question?”

Many would argue that in cases of national security, it is appropriate to lie. But is it really? Some others would also argue that when you have a confidential relationship with someone, it is appropriate to lie, to those outside of that relationship.

And then there was our former President who only lied about sex.

If there are so many instances where it is appropriate, then when is it inappropriate to lie? (Apparently one can not lie if one is using performance enhancing drugs in a competitive athletic sport.)

Back to kids, is suggesting to a child that there is a Santa Claus, the Easter Bunnie, or the Tooth Fairy, a lie?

And what about that dying parent? Are lies appropriate at the death bed? What about the case of a patient who has terminal cancer, with only a short time to live?

If Congress poses a question to a member of the CIA, is the operative required to always provide the truth? Was Oliver North justified in lying to Congress about Iran-Contra?

Or was Jack Nicholson correct in A Few Good Men, when he said that, "[We] can’t handle the truth?”

P.S. By the way, you’re right. The Logistician is not very bright, and he lied. He did not provide 27 situations.

14 comments:

What is a lie? Its a conflict between what a person says and what s/he believes to be the truth. The belief may be wrong, or just nonsense, but if someone DELIBERATELY says something not thought to be true, it is a lie.

When a politician, for example, has 'forgotten' or even forgotten a fact being asked about - and gives an answer in line with a political position - it is a lie.

So, a lie MAY be the truth - but if you THINK you are lying, you are!

In any case, it's not what you do - it's why you do it.

There is no comparison between the 'lie' to a nonsense question from a senile person, to the deliberate lie from a big-shot politician for money/votes/whatever.

Lies may be essential to protect agents in an unfriendly nation.

So are there good lies and bad lies? Of course there are.

So what's the problem? I'll tell you. BELIEF is the problem. Both priests and politicians lie through their teeth most of the time, and sometimes it really matters. (Health-care reform anyone?)

The Inspector likes to hear what you can do about things.

Suspend your belief. Look for evidence. Even your convictions are probably the victims of liars.

CorfuBob wrote: "What is a lie? Its a conflict between what a person says and what s/he believes to be the truth. The belief may be wrong, or just nonsense, but if someone DELIBERATELY says something not thought to be true, it is a lie."

Some might forcefully argue that a lie is a deviation from what one understands to be the truth. Under that view, motive would appear to be irrelevant.

I don't know, Inspector, I tend to agree with Corfubob on this one. Intent and knowledge is important. But I question his portrayal of priests as "lying through their teeth", I think they (for the most part) truly believe what they say and that removes the intent to deceive.

As you say Inspector,the definition of a lie is one thing,and the motive for lying is another. The motive says something about how 'big' the lie is.

Douglas, when i say 'priest' it includes the evil people at the top of the pile, who have tortured and burned hundreds of thousands of dissenters in the past on the basis of LIES. They did not then (or now) KNOW their claims to be true.

To claim that beliefs of this kind are true is lying. Little priests at the bottom of the pile who are only allowed to wear cheap black dresses, know only where their salaries are coming from, but may believe much of what they are told to believe. They are not lying of course when they say "I believe God loves you" But do they say that?

Douglas and CorfuBob on the same team regarding lying, and the role that intent and knowledge play....

Let us pose this pair of questions to you.

1) Ministers, rabbis, bishops, mullahs, priests, etc. What percentage of them actually have some form of personal communication with their God as their claim, and what percentage tell the truth 100% of the time when communicating with their followers?

2) Church followers: what percentage of them actually believe that their version of God exists?

1. It is scientifically unprovable. Or...2. It is also believed by a majority of people within their environment. Or...3. It harms no one.

A priest (or any religious authority figure) would not (to me) be lying if he preached anything he believed to be so. It would be up to his followers to decide if they, too, wished to believe it.

As the Inspector knows, I am atheist. However, I have no problem whatsoever if others wish to believe in the supernatural. I think those who lie must know they are lying. It must be a deliberate act. Being wrong about something is not lying, it is merely being wrong.

Having said that, I also think there are religious authorities who do lie, who do not believe what they preach. I just don't think it is all, or even many, of them.

Were the doctors of the past who used shock treatments and bled people liars? Or were they doing what they thought (and were taught) was the right thing to do? Being wrong is not lying. It's just being wrong.

Said yet another way, if someone tells me something I believe to be wrong, I do not say that person lied UNLESS I know that person knew it was wrong before they said it.

Anonymous, I don't know about you but my parents had a rigid standard: no lying. Not even fibs. Of course, they violated that rule from time to time as they deemed necessary. At these times, if found out by us, they would provide an explanation justifying their violation.

House is one of our favorite shows. In the show aired this evening, House is visited by his Mother and Father, who seem like the perfect parents. After struggling through a meal with them in the hospital cafeteria, House retires to his office and plays a video game.

In walks Cameron who speaks of the positive vibe that she felt in meeting his parents. House notes that his Father is very similar to Cameron, in that both are guided by an unyielding moral compass, which requires that they always tell the truth. He goes on to say that it is a great quality for boy scouts and police witnesses, but a crappy one for a father.

"There Are More Than 2 Or 3 Ways To View Any Issue; There Are At Least 27"™

"Experience Isn't Expensive; It's Priceless"™

"Common Sense should be a Way of Life"™

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This forum was designed to be YOUR forum for the civil exchange of ideas by people with all points of views. We welcome the submission of articles by all of our readers, as long as they are in compliance with our Guidelines contained in Post No. 34. We look forward to receiving your submissions.

About Me

Although there are other Fellows (namely the Logistician, the Laughingman, and the Optimizer) affiliated with the Institute for Applied Common Sense, I write the majority of the articles posted here.
I am someone who was fortunate enough to obtain a decent education and to travel extensively. I had all of the good breaks and luck in the world, and still managed to muck up and disappoint others who invested their faith in me.
Although I am obviously not a role model for others, I wish to share my insight (and that of the other Fellows) and experience so that others might not travel down the wandering, non-goal orientated, complicated path which I traveled. I am an individual who discovered, far too late in life, my purpose in the universe, and something about which I could feel passionate.
I do not want to see our youth, particularly college students, have to wait so long. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I am someone who accepts 110% responsibility for all that has occurred to me, and does not think of himself as a victim.

"Exploring the Relationship between Curiosity, Personal Responsibility, and Consequences" --

There's a positive side to mucking up. You have the opportunity to “fix it” and "do the right thing."

You can address it by taking personal responsibility for the events leading up to it.

Doing the right thing is not rocket science. Experience isn’t expensive, it’s priceless.

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Solution-oriented individuals, particularly high school seniors and college students, who, unrestrained by political correctness, are willing to “dig deep” in an effort to understand and explore the underlying root causes of problems, rather than focus merely on the symptoms.

"It's Your Turn"

The “It’s Your Turn” ™ team will soon embark on a nationwide tour of colleges and universities to engage students in a discussion about personal responsibility. “It’s Your Turn” ™ will utilize adults who have encountered and recovered from various difficulties in life, as teaching vehicles, in conjunction with the latest research on the brain and decision theory.

The goals of “It’s Your Turn” ™ are the following: (a) to provoke thought; (b) to encourage students to consider their choices in life; (c) to assist students in analyzing the decisions that they make along with the consequences; and (d) to have them recognize the importance of taking personal responsibility for their choices. The ultimate goal of “It’s Your Turn” ™ is to assist students in coming up with fresh, new ways to address their personal and societal issues.

We believe that, “There are more than 2 or 3 ways to view any issue; there are at least 27.™”

One of the goals which the “It’s Your Turn” ™ Team will achieve, during our discussion of issues, will be the de-personalization of the analysis, by avoiding subjective and partisan approaches. The “It’s Your Turn” ™ Team believes that the analysis will improve through objectivity (as much as it can be achieved) and creativity, along with “digging deep” to expose the root causes of issues, instead of merely being distracted and sidelined by symptoms. We can thereafter craft better solutions.

The articles appearing on this site reflect the type of thought process and critical thinking through which the “It’s Your Turn” ™ Team will navigate students in our sessions.

“It’s Your Turn” ™ to have an influence on America

“It’s Your Turn” ™ to correct the mistakes of the past

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“It’s Your Turn” ™ to take responsibility for your future

“It’s Your Turn” ™ to start making the hard decisions

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“It’s Your Turn” ™ also has smaller, local projects, based on the same responsibility model, planned for late Summer.

During the Spring of 2015, we will conduct our first focus group, in the Piedmont Triad region of North Carolina, with parents and college students, to assist in our further development of presentation. Additional sessions will be conducted in the Summer of 2015, throughout the Southeast. We will seek YOUR thoughts about the areas which YOU would like to have covered in our sessions on responsibility. The location of the first session shall be announced later.

During the Fall of 2015, “It’s Your Turn” ™ will conduct sessions about responsibility with college freshmen, and their parents. Parents and freshmen are obviously full of trepidation as the young adults leave the fold of home, and become truly independent for the first time in their lives.

Additionally, during the Fall of 2015, “It’s Your Turn” ™ will conduct similar sessions on numerous college campuses throughout the Southeast, during their Orientation sessions, and during periods designed for the involvement of parents.