However, I will admit that it took me a GREAT DEAL of communication, with some very knowledgeable people (here at GS.com) to get any type of an understanding of what my goals should be with Kira. And even many months, I found myself lost and confused.

This owner isn't interested, at least at this moment, in taking their dog to the SchH nationals. At this point, the desire is only for a reliable, off leash recall. That doesn’t take long conversations with "knowledgeable people" as to what the "goals should be."

If I had to rely on reading an instruction sheet on the internet, and attempt to use an ecollar, I honestly believe I would have done more harm than good.

You seem to think that an owner needs to have the Ecollar in one hand and my instructions in the other. That's not the case. One reads the protocol, and then goes out and does it. I advocate reading it again after the first session. Often people find things that they didn't do exactly as I call for. And so, they do it on the next training session. MILLIONS of people have trained their own dogs by reading books and then going out and doing what the book said. My articles are no different.

My only suggestion to the OP, was to get an idea of what it takes to apply some basic obedience [Emphasis Added]

I'm sorry but this is simply NOT the case. You made MANY suggestions warning the OP to stay away from the Ecollar. I have no problem if someone wants to make other suggestions and I rarely get involved in those discussions. But when someone does as you did, specifically recommending NOT TO USE the Ecollar, then I sometimes get involved. Your suggestion went far beyond just "get[ting] an idea of what it takes to apply some basic OB."

I've read your site Lou and I like your methods, but I think we have a fundamental disagreement in the role of the owner in training. I don't think an owner who doesn't understand their dog can be truly effective or correct.

At this point all this owner wants is a reliable recall. That doesn't take a deep understanding of the dog, how dogs learn, or anything of the sort. It takes the ability to read and follow some simple instructions. And let's not forget that using other methods ALSO won't give the owner an "understand[ing]" of their dog.

There are only so many things that a dog can do during this training. I'm pretty sure that they've all been covered in the instructions. If you can find something that's not been covered, please let me know. But really, none of them make any significant difference, either in what should be done or in the outcome.

I'm sorry but this is simply NOT the case. You made MANY suggestions warning the OP to stay away from the Ecollar. I have no problem if someone wants to make other suggestions and I rarely get involved in those discussions. But when someone does as you did, specifically recommending NOT TO USE the Ecollar, then I sometimes get involved. Your suggestion went far beyond just "get[ting] an idea of what it takes to apply some basic OB."

[QUOTE]=LouCastle;2749738]This owner isn't interested, at least at this moment, in taking their dog to the SchH nationals. At this point, the desire is only for a reliable, off leash recall. That doesn’t take long conversations with "knowledgeable people" as to what the "goals should be." [quote]

The only SchH nationals I'm interested in, is the one in my home. It took a lot of work to be able to call my dog from over 300 yards away, in the woods, and have her come running to me, without hesitation.
My point being... I had to train and be trained to perfect that.

I think more people should take the time to outline their goals with their dogs. IMO, it's a quality of life issue for both the dog and its owner. If I walked around "zapping" my dog every time she did something, I can assure you I wouldn't have the quality relationship I have with my dog. My dog respects me, and LISTENS to me because she ENJOYS it.
And YES, it took long conversations from some very knowledgeable people to truly understand WHY my dog acted a certain way. These people have spent years with their dogs, and nothing can replace experience and wisdom.

If I had a dollar for every thread, where people thought their dog was protecting them, or wondered why their dog was attacked at the dog park, I could retire.

I do believe ecollars have their place.
They certainly do not belong in the hands of an owner that doesn't have a clue about basic obedience.

ADMIN WARNING: Both sides have presented excellent arguements, and the ARGUING WILL stop here! The OP can read and decide which methods will work best for their problem.

There will be no hesitation in locking this thread and sending warnings for ignoring a public warning on the thread to stop the attacks (as almost all e-collar threads end up locked - neither side NEEDS to have the last word - show some courtesy to the other side of the debate by allowing them to express their thoughts. Their are two people in this thread for whom this warning is aimed at, the rest of you are safe.

THANK YOU,

ADMIN

Now posting as a participating member of GSD.com:

I agree with reading books and going to classes to learn some basics. You have to understand that our dogs` behaviour is a result of our behaviour. We without being aware, have trained our dogs to misbehave by giving them some kind of reward for the behaviour, be it our attention, a few more minutes of being outside, the realization that they have control in some areas, etc. Classes will give you one-on-one feedback and insight on how we can change this. Makes you see a bit how a dog`s brain works, so we can work WITH our dog, not againts them.

To start, if your dog won`t come to you, it is because you have not made coming to you a good thing. You have to brainwash your dog into believing that coming to you is a good thing, ALWAYS associate it with positive outcomes. Never be angry at your dog, punish it, or scold it for not coming.

I am not anti e-collar. I do use an e-collar, have gained much insight by reading Lou`s posts and website, have had good success with it, but I agree with much of the other posters here: what you need is to learn how to develop a good RELATIONSHIP with your dog - that is part of the training you need to do.

Lucia

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The only SchH nationals I'm interested in, is the one in my home. It took a lot of work to be able to call my dog from over 300 yards away, in the woods, and have her come running to me, without hesitation. [Emphasis Added]

Sorry Anthony8858, I have no idea what you're talking about here. I don't think that there are any SchH nationals taking place in your home. You said earlier, " ... it took me a GREAT DEAL of communication, with some very knowledgeable people (here at GS.com) to get any type of an understanding of what my goals should be with Kira." The OP already has a good understand of her goal with her dog. She wants a reliable recall.

Thanks for letting us know that it took you "a lot of work" to get there with the methods that you used. People who do use the Ecollar with my methods, report doing very little work, spending very little time, and that they're happy with their results.

The articles on my site will take care of any training of the OP that's necessary. If she wants to learn more, there are plenty of places that can be done. But based on what we know of her history, she's not interested. And it's not necessary to learn those things to have a happy, well behaved dog.

I think more people should take the time to outline their goals with their dogs. IMO, it's a quality of life issue for both the dog and its owner. If I walked around "zapping" my dog every time she did something, I can assure you I wouldn't have the quality relationship I have with my dog. My dog respects me, and LISTENS to me because she ENJOYS it.

It seems to me that the OP HAS "outline[d her] goals." She wants a reliable recall. MOST people here are pet owners, they have no long range plans to stand on a podium in some competitive arena, they just want a dog that comes when called, that doesn’t tear up the house, and does a few "tricks" that they can enjoy. Not everyone wants to learn about how a dog thinks, and they don't need to.

As to "walking around 'zapping' [your] dog ..." I strongly suggest that you read my articles. What you imagine about my use of an Ecollar is just that, in your imagination. It's not what I do in this kind of work. The training is structured and, at the same time, very easy, for a novice to do.

And YES, it took long conversations from some very knowledgeable people to truly understand WHY my dog acted a certain way. These people have spent years with their dogs, and nothing can replace experience and wisdom.

It's GREAT that you are interested enough in your training to learn why your dog "act[s] in certain ways." But not everyone is this interested, and they don't have to be to wind up with a trained dog. I agree that "nothing can replace experience and wisdom" but again, one needn't have either, to get a trained dog.

I'll suggest that you spend some time in educating yourself. You are relatively inexperienced, especially it seems, on this topic. I'd guess that you've been to a couple of clubs and have learned most of what you know from the TD and members at one of them. You've told us that you've learned a lot from the members here. Often those folks have relatively limited backgrounds and share a common viewpoint. Often they are protective of their methods and ideas and are not open to what others are doing. It's pretty common for people to think that their first mentor has all the answer. After all, you know nothing and they have an answer for every one of your questions.

I was the same way once. I was lucky that I learned very quickly how little my initial trainers knew about what they were doing, about what they taught me. It took rapid multiple failures on the street (with police dogs) and we were very lucky that no one was seriously injured, due to the lack of skill and knowledge of my initial trainers. At the time, many considered them to be "state of the art." I learned in just a few weeks that they really had very little idea. I've trained with hundreds of trainers and thousands of owners. My opinions are based on the distillation of that experience.

... To start, if your dog won`t come to you, it is because you have not made coming to you a good thing.

I think that it's more than this. An owner may have made coming to them "a good thing," but it may not be as "good" as playing with another dog, chasing a cat, or sniffing the chicken bone left after a picnic in the park. Some try to train with only the "good thing" in mind. With many dogs that works quite well. With other dogs it's a disaster.

I am not anti e-collar. I do use an e-collar, have gained much insight by reading Lou`s posts and website, have had good success with it, but I agree with much of the other posters here: what you need is to learn how to develop a good RELATIONSHIP with your dog - that is part of the training you need to do.

Thanks for the kind words. What many people fail to realize is that my methods of using the Ecollar bring vastly different results than those obtained by people who just zap the dog when he does something wrong or when he fails to comply with a command. My method of teaching the recall BUILDS A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE DOG. The dog learns, as a consequence of what's happening, that the owner provides safety and a comfortable place.

Many people in these discussions assume that they know about how the Ecollar is used. Often they're quite wrong. Fact is, there are several ways to use the tool but not everyone knows this. That doesn't stop them from making this assumption and then running with it. There's no rational or logical way to compare training that just uses the Ecollar for corrections and aversion training, and training that teaches the dog what the Ecollar stim means.

I have zero qualifications to give advice, but wanted to share a different view than what's discussed, that my dog gets equal amounts off-lead and on-lead obedience. Voice and hands for corrections off and on, leash corrections on-lead, collar or tab corrections off-lead. Maybe your dog needs to know that off-lead doesn't mean you can't lay down the law. Also had started his training all off-lead.

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