question about horizontal scrollbar in frames

as a non-professional in these things, I searched for this topic but found
no satisfying answer:

I have to create a site with 3 frames. (Please no diskussion about the sense
of using frames...)
The main frame has to show a vertical scrollbar if content is bigger than
one display page.
This works well, but:

if I define "scrollbar=auto" then
- in IE also a horizontal scrollbar is shown when content is bigger than
one page (bad)
- in Opera & Firefox only vertical scrollbar is shown (good)

if I define "scrollbar=yes" then

- in IE only a vertical scrollbar is shown (good)
- in IE and FF also a horizontal scrollbar is shown but deactivated (grey)
(bad)

one hint is to delete the DTD statement. This solves the problem but is not
a really good idea, because a lot of my css styles then works different.

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In article <ebhdfg$t55$>,
"Michael Weis" <> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> as a non-professional in these things, I searched for this topic but found
> no satisfying answer:
>
> I have to create a site with 3 frames. (Please no diskussion about the sense
> of using frames...)
> The main frame has to show a vertical scrollbar if content is bigger than
> one display page.
> This works well, but:
>
> if I define "scrollbar=auto" then
> - in IE also a horizontal scrollbar is shown when content is bigger than
> one page (bad)
> - in Opera & Firefox only vertical scrollbar is shown (good)
>
> if I define "scrollbar=yes" then
>
> - in IE only a vertical scrollbar is shown (good)
> - in IE and FF also a horizontal scrollbar is shown but deactivated (grey)
> (bad)

Give us a url to demonstrate what you say when you have
scrollbar="yes", it does not happen like you say on my copy of
Mac IE , nor Safari, nor - and I bet quids this is the same on
Windows for the following - Firefox. If you have things right,
for scrollbars="yes", it behaves beautifully.

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the site is on my notebook at this time --> no URL
But I will give you one with an nearly empty site soon. I used one yesterday
for verifying this behaviour.

It is IE 6.0.2900.2180 on Win XP sp2.

The behaviour at Opera & FF is correct!

Regards,

Michael

dorayme wrote:
> In article <ebhdfg$t55$>,
> "Michael Weis" <> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> as a non-professional in these things, I searched for this topic but
>> found no satisfying answer:
>>
>> I have to create a site with 3 frames. (Please no diskussion about
>> the sense of using frames...)
>> The main frame has to show a vertical scrollbar if content is bigger
>> than one display page.
>> This works well, but:
>>
>> if I define "scrollbar=auto" then
>> - in IE also a horizontal scrollbar is shown when content is bigger
>> than one page (bad)
>> - in Opera & Firefox only vertical scrollbar is shown (good)
>>
>> if I define "scrollbar=yes" then
>>
>> - in IE only a vertical scrollbar is shown (good)
>> - in IE and FF also a horizontal scrollbar is shown but deactivated
>> (grey) (bad)
>
> Give us a url to demonstrate what you say when you have
> scrollbar="yes", it does not happen like you say on my copy of
> Mac IE , nor Safari, nor - and I bet quids this is the same on
> Windows for the following - Firefox. If you have things right,
> for scrollbars="yes", it behaves beautifully.

dorayme wrote:
> Give us a url to demonstrate what you say when you have
> scrollbar="yes", it does not happen like you say on my copy of
> Mac IE , nor Safari, nor - and I bet quids this is the same on
> Windows for the following - Firefox. If you have things right,
> for scrollbars="yes", it behaves beautifully.

Michael Weis wrote:
> Hi,
>
> dorayme wrote:
> > Give us a url to demonstrate what you say when you have
> > scrollbar="yes", it does not happen like you say on my copy of
> > Mac IE , nor Safari, nor - and I bet quids this is the same on
> > Windows for the following - Firefox. If you have things right,
> > for scrollbars="yes", it behaves beautifully.
>
> Here they are:
>
> http://www.weis-it.de/dummy/frameset_yes.html
>
> http://www.weis-it.de/dummy/frameset_auto.html
>
> they act exactly as I described
>
> the "auto" value would be exact what I want - if MS IE wouldn't show this
> horizontal scrollbar.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael

Well there is some good news in that IE v7 (beta 3), the "auto" value
only gives the vertical scroll bar as per Opera v9 and Firefox, so I
would stick with auto for the time being.

I did verify that "yes" gives the greyed out horizontal scrollbar on
Opera and Firefox here.

In article <ebhkb4$cdl$>,
"Michael Weis" <> wrote:
> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <ebhdfg$t55$>,
> > "Michael Weis" <> wrote:
> >
> >> if I define "scrollbar=yes" then
> >>
> >> - in IE only a vertical scrollbar is shown (good)
> >> - in IE and FF also a horizontal scrollbar is shown but deactivated
> >> (grey) (bad)
> >
> > Give us a url to demonstrate what you say when you have
> > scrollbar="yes", it does not happen like you say on my copy of
> > Mac IE , nor Safari, nor - and I bet quids this is the same on
> > Windows for the following - Firefox. If you have things right,
> > for scrollbars="yes", it behaves beautifully.

> The behaviour at Opera & FF is correct!
>

Please don't top-post, took me 20 sec to mess about sorting the
order out somewhat. So are you saying now that FF is right and
"good" whereas you thought it was "bad" before? Without a url,
you need to be especially clear.

"dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
news:...
> In article <ebhkb4$cdl$>,
> "Michael Weis" <> wrote:
>
> > dorayme wrote:
> > > In article <ebhdfg$t55$>,
> > > "Michael Weis" <> wrote:
> > >
>
> > >> if I define "scrollbar=yes" then
> > >>
> > >> - in IE only a vertical scrollbar is shown (good)
> > >> - in IE and FF also a horizontal scrollbar is shown but deactivated
> > >> (grey) (bad)
> > >
> > > Give us a url to demonstrate what you say when you have
> > > scrollbar="yes", it does not happen like you say on my copy of
> > > Mac IE , nor Safari, nor - and I bet quids this is the same on
> > > Windows for the following - Firefox. If you have things right,
> > > for scrollbars="yes", it behaves beautifully.
>
>
> > The behaviour at Opera & FF is correct!
> >
>
> Please don't top-post, took me 20 sec to mess about sorting the
> order out somewhat. So are you saying now that FF is right and
> "good" whereas you thought it was "bad" before? Without a url,
> you need to be especially clear.

Hello dorayme,
I am under the impression that I know now who you are not...

In article <ebhkb4$cdl$>,
"Michael Weis" <> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> the site is on my notebook at this time --> no URL
> But I will give you one with an nearly empty site soon. I used one yesterday
> for verifying this behaviour.
>
> It is IE 6.0.2900.2180 on Win XP sp2.
>
> The behaviour at Opera & FF is correct!
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael

I took another look, fresh this morning, you are right about the
greyed out, it looked so natural on an old site I made (that had
just 2 frames, left nav and right content with grey border
allowed) that I missed that it was a grey scollbar. There were no
arrows, nothing to indicate a scollbar to the average website
user, it is a subtlety, a place for the scroll bar to happen
without it suddenly popping in to disturb things, it serves to be
a graceful phantom ready to spring into life on scrollbar="yes".

I now realise what you mean by "bad" but correct. I don't think
it is bad at all but you cannot know how natural, it can look
with the sketchy page at the url. There it looks strange and
stands out. Make a real page, with background colours, allow
frame borders or not as suits the design and you will see that
"yes" is not at all so bad...

"Michael Weis" <> wrote in message
news:ebhdfg$t55$...
> Hello all,
>
> as a non-professional in these things, I searched for this topic but found
> no satisfying answer:
>
> I have to create a site with 3 frames. (Please no diskussion about the
sense
> of using frames...)

[SNIP]

We all know what a pain in the neck they are to work with so I won't jump on
yours. Suffice it to say that I'm not sure if an asprin will be any help!
However, just in case ur interested, I'm developing to similar compositional
requirements. The template is still incomplete, but take a look atwww.geoceanis.com for a possible alternative...

Hi Timothy,
>> (Please no diskussion about the sense of using frames...)
> We all know what a pain in the neck they are to work with so I won't
> jump on yours.
Thank you In this case I have no choice.
> but take a look at www.geoceanis.com for a possible alternative...

Looks good, interesting ideas & styles.
For my own site ( http://www.weis-it.de ) I will use css styles
for static parts too. But as a non-professional (in web-authoring)
I have to learn much more about css-based layouts.

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