ugh, is there anything about the whole chik-fil-a fiasco that is admirable on either side? I want this whole stupidity to just go away.

I just want to preface before I get e-pummeled, I am 100% pro-equality and think people using religious dogma to push for legislation is horrible. That being said, why are people surprised that Cathy has the opinion he has? And where do government officials get off stating they're going to ban private businesses from their cities because of activities that they participate in that are completely legal? As much as I side with the opinion of those that think Cathy is an idiot and as much as I support a boycott of Chik-Fil-A (doubly as a vegan), no one is accomplishing anything on either side. It feels to me like PETA's stupidest protest tactics just got adopted by both the pro and anti-gay marriage groups and now no one is "winning" anymore.

"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. Martyrdom is the test." - Samuel Johnson

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

_________________Technically, we're all half-centaur - Nick Offerman

Imma let you finish, but the Paranthropus Boisei were the greatest vegans ever.

Ugh I saw all these cave paintings complaining about vegan cheese options. I don't miss those days. -Isa

Stuff like this makes me not want to go back to the US.But, also, i think if we knew where companies' directorship donate their money, to what causes etc etc, we'd probably be pretty pissed off about almost everyone.

It's a slippery slope. It's ok because we agree with them. What if it were a little conservative town banning for the opposite reason? This could happen because the GBLT community still lacks even basic civil rights protections in some states.

The Supreme Court ruled that monetary donations fall under free speech. I don't remember the exact case, but the rationale was that political campaigning is inseparable from funding. As far as CFA is concerned, this is a freedom of speech issue. They can say what they want and spend as they see fit as long as they are not breaking anti-discrimination laws. Consumers can then support them or not as they see fit.

The gay marriage issue is totally a civil rights issue and religion should have no bearing. But this needs handled legislatively. Once that happens, homophobic bigots can turn themselves apoplectic by spouting off about Godly marriage all they want.

CFA is far from the only company that supports these same groups. What about Hobby Lobby? They give tons of money to Bill Gothard and other similarly evil groups.

I think the mayors have done more harm than good. They outraged enough people into treating this as just a freedom of speech issue and caused this all to blow up more than it otherwise would have. It would be better if these mayors aggressively and publicly pushed for gay rights in tangibly constructive ways. (I know the mayor of Boston has; not sure what Emmanuel has done).

I live in an area of Virginia that opposed the marriage amendment by over 70% yet the wait at the CFA here was, according to the news, over 2 hours, and they ran out of ice and food hours before closing time.

_________________"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk

I guess as a Canadian I have a different perspective , here discrimination *isn't* a free speech issue and is often considered hate speech (a crime). I don't really understand how donations are speech when corporations can donate so much more than citizens.

I think the mayors have done more harm than good. They outraged enough people into treating this as just a freedom of speech issue and caused this all to blow up more than it otherwise would have. It would be better if these mayors aggressively and publicly pushed for gay rights in tangibly constructive ways. (I know the mayor of Boston has; not sure what Emmanuel has done).

I live in an area of Virginia that opposed the marriage amendment by over 70% yet the wait at the CFA here was, according to the news, over 2 hours, and they ran out of ice and food hours before closing time.

Yep, the mayors turned this from a disagreement in ideology to a constitutional debate that could only end in a court battle over the 1st Amendment rights extended to verbalizing religious beliefs. It gave fuel to the argument purported by the anti-gay marriage lobby that gay rights advocates are the bullies. If anything, particularly after what I anticipate to be a total flop of a "kiss-in" <- seriously, there were hour long lines at CFA the other day, there are not enough gay people in most areas to even come close to that kind of a showing, and I doubt many heterosexuals that support gay rights are going to go out and find a buddy of the same sex to make out with for the sake of protest - the public relations victors at the end of this whole fiasco are going to be CFA and the groups that promote the misinformed notion that gay rights come in direct conflict with religious free speech.

Gay rights advocates will not win by fighting battles like the one with CFA. They will win in the courts and with serious discussions with people around them. I know it's just one poll, but the shift in opinion about gay marriage in MD shows some very positive results that in theory have come about because President Obama and other leaders in the black community have spoken up in favor of equality, not because someone attacked someone else for their beliefs - no matter how misguided or irrelevant to national law they might be.

_________________Technically, we're all half-centaur - Nick Offerman

Imma let you finish, but the Paranthropus Boisei were the greatest vegans ever.

Ugh I saw all these cave paintings complaining about vegan cheese options. I don't miss those days. -Isa

It's a slippery slope. It's ok because we agree with them. What if it were a little conservative town banning for the opposite reason? This could happen because the GBLT community still lacks even basic civil rights protections in some states.

The Supreme Court ruled that monetary donations fall under free speech. I don't remember the exact case, but the rationale was that political campaigning is inseparable from funding. As far as CFA is concerned, this is a freedom of speech issue. They can say what they want and spend as they see fit as long as they are not breaking anti-discrimination laws. Consumers can then support them or not as they see fit.

The gay marriage issue is totally a civil rights issue and religion should have no bearing. But this needs handled legislatively. Once that happens, homophobic bigots can turn themselves apoplectic by spouting off about Godly marriage all they want.

CFA is far from the only company that supports these same groups. What about Hobby Lobby? They give tons of money to Bill Gothard and other similarly evil groups.

I think the mayors have done more harm than good. They outraged enough people into treating this as just a freedom of speech issue and caused this all to blow up more than it otherwise would have. It would be better if these mayors aggressively and publicly pushed for gay rights in tangibly constructive ways. (I know the mayor of Boston has; not sure what Emmanuel has done).

I live in an area of Virginia that opposed the marriage amendment by over 70% yet the wait at the CFA here was, according to the news, over 2 hours, and they ran out of ice and food hours before closing time.

yeah I strongly agree with all this. I brought up something similar in the Foyer a while back but I am completely ineloquent.

_________________"If I were M. de la Viandeviande, I would now write a thirteen page post about how you have to have free will to be vegan, but modern science does not suggest any evidence for free will, therefore it is impossible to be vegan." -mumbles

I guess as a Canadian I have a different perspective , here discrimination *isn't* a free speech issue and is often considered hate speech (a crime). I don't really understand how donations are speech when corporations can donate so much more than citizens.

If you listen to or read Cathy's comments, he was really careful to not even mention gay marriage. Of course it was very clear what he meant, but he didn't say anything that could be legally classified as hate speech. To be clear, I am not defending him, though I am defending that he has a right to say what he wants.

Then of course, it all gets twisted around so that gay marriage supporters are "intolerant" of Biblical marriage. That one makes me apoplectic.

But there is no point engaging with these people. You cant argue against religion with logic. It would be much more constructive to do something like have "pray away the gay" crepe defined as child abuse. There are surely some test cases out there that would help accomplish this.

_________________"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk

I find it interesting that the company is so committed to closing on Sundays because their Southern Baptist values go above profits, but that they put profit first by coming to neighborhoods with large GBLT populations and have no problem taking anyone's money that is willing to pay. (I guess businesses aren't allowed to discriminate in providing their services or hiring so that changes things a bit)

I'm not sure how I think this should play out. I believe in free speech. If this company wants to give their money to these organizations they have the right to do that. If the founder wants to spread his message of intolerance he unfortunately has the right to do that as well. I think if a community doesn't want a business they should be able to say that as well. The problem is if some people in the community want the business and some don't what do you do? If you don't like what the restaurant says or does, don't eat there. Unfortunately most people don't give much thought to where they eat. I have no idea if my local mexican restaurant gives money to a charity I like/don't like. It is a shame because I (used to) like a lot of what Chik-fil-A stands for. The employees at the one near my sister are so amazing and always go above and beyond, do you punish them for what their boss's boss's boss does? (not that there is anything I can eat there anyways)

Sorry lots of thinking "out loud" there. The main issue is that some people (including myself and a majority of younger generations) believe GBLT issues to be a civil rights issue, and some people (especially older generations) think of it as a morality issue. Although the religious argument never makes sense to me. Between CCD, Catholic High School, and a Catholic college, I seem to remember the biggest point was that Jesus loved everyone. They use many examples of outcast groups of the time: prostitutes, lepers etc to make that point very clear. Apparently people still don't get that message though.

I think mayors have the right/ability to speak out against Chick-fil-A? It's if they use their mayoral power to revoke/block Chick-fil-A on ideological grounds that things get iffy, but I think that's not a free speech issue but something else. Of course, a lot of the right is hell-bent on seeing themselves as victims of religious persecution, so this is feeding straight into that. (Never mind that they boycott/protest plenty of stuff).

_________________Karyn is actually just a collection of horrible thoughts masquerading as a person. -amandabear

I guess as a Canadian I have a different perspective , here discrimination *isn't* a free speech issue and is often considered hate speech (a crime). I don't really understand how donations are speech when corporations can donate so much more than citizens.

Nothing that Chik-Fil-A has said counts as hate speech in Canada. (I am Canadian and went to law school at the U of Alberta, though I now live in San Francisco). The bar for what is considered hate speech in Canada is very high, as it is in the U.S.

I feel like the vast majority of the responses to this whole thing are misguided and muddled. Does Chik-Fil-A/employees/owners/sharholders of same have the right to speak out against gay marriage? Yes. Is such speech hate speech? Generally, no. Does that means government officials should be stepping in and taking punitive action against Chik-Fil-A for exercising their freedom of speech? No. Can government officials express their personal views on the subject? Yes. Does that mean we have to support Chik-Fil-A? NO! Does that mean we should use our power as consumers and individuals to express how we feel about their bigoted stance? Hell yes!

As much as I find this whole thing repugnant, Chik-Fil-A and its owners/employees/whatever have the right to express their views on things. Similarly, governments and agents thereof shouldn't be stepping in to prevent people from expressing unpopular opinions.

_________________If you spit on my food I will blow your forking head off, you filthy shitdog. - MumblesDon't you know that vegan meat is the gateway drug to chicken addiction? Because GMO and trans-fats. - kaerlighed

As much as I find this whole thing repugnant, Chik-Fil-A and its owners/employees/whatever have the right to express their views on things. Similarly, governments and agents thereof shouldn't be stepping in to prevent people from expressing unpopular opinions.

This. Thank you.

_________________Technically, we're all half-centaur - Nick Offerman

Imma let you finish, but the Paranthropus Boisei were the greatest vegans ever.

Ugh I saw all these cave paintings complaining about vegan cheese options. I don't miss those days. -Isa

It is pretty stupid. I don't think anyone was actually preventing Chik-Fil-A from doing business though. The mayor of Boston wrote them a fork you letter, Rahm has no say over zoning issues in an individual Chicago ward, and the alderman there was more or less grandstanding - Chik-Fil-A already has the go-away to operate in his ward, but they want to tear down some potentially mixed-use buildings to put in a drive through that would be an empty parking lot on a weekend day. It was probably stupid of him to speak out at them over the marriage issue when a fast food drive through is probably a lousy fit for the area anyway. I really like this perspective: http://www.owldolatrous.com/?p=288Point 2 is especially good:

Quote:

2. This isn’t about mutual tolerance because there’s nothing mutual about it. If we agree to disagree on this issue, you walk away a full member of this society and I don’t. There is no “live and let live” on this issue because Dan Cathy is spending millions to very specifically NOT let me live. I’m not trying to do that to him.

Gay rights issues are really asymmetrical.

_________________Goddamn that Rick Santorum has a pretty mouth. -sameness

Yeah, I'm not saying we should live and let live. I'm saying that we as individuals should be coming out in force against Chik-Fil-A (and other bigoted companies and/or organizations). I just don't think governmental officials should be using their positions to punish or impugn companies or organizations that are exercising their free speech rights. It's too slippery a slope, and unfortunately, I fear there are more politicians who would use their public offices AGAINST equality if they are permitted to do so.

_________________If you spit on my food I will blow your forking head off, you filthy shitdog. - MumblesDon't you know that vegan meat is the gateway drug to chicken addiction? Because GMO and trans-fats. - kaerlighed

Just hope that now the bigots (excuse me, pro "free-speech" advocates, right?) have had their chicken they can shut up and go home. They don't seem to see that the problem with Chick-Fil-A is that they're throwing millions of dollars to promote hate towards LGBT people. What Mr. Cathy said is well within his right albeit hurtful. But what he's doing with his company funds is totally unacceptable. I fail to see how it's any different than funding the KKK. Family Research Center promotes hate. Exodus International promotes hate.

Also, I applauded what Mayor Menino did at first, but now the conservatives have turned this thing into a flag waving fork fest and on Wednesday, Chick-Fil-A made record sales. Who'd have known.

And upsetting about Antoine Dodson.

_________________Half the lies I tell are not true."luckily us vegans dont go into cardiac arrest...but we do go into food comas" - Adam Crisis

I gotta say I really know next to nothing on the legalities of all this (or law in general) , but I wonder why about the rights of minorities to live in a society that isn't actively seeking to oppress them? Why does one group's right to free speech trump another's right to equal treatment , free of systematic persecution?