First and foremost, you have no choice but to inherit a specific point on the timeline. From this all else follows.

And standing on that individual point, you inherit an existing shared reality (and I am not interested in philosophical discussions regarding this ...ie. solipsism etc) that immediately inculcates you with the supposed framework within which you are expected to live your life.

That inheritance of a shared reality and its evolved and accumulated history is an enforced draconian burden you are expected to carry all your days.

The existence of prior history is an inevitable imposition that you spend the rest of your life affected by.

Each birth/life/self awareness should be able to define their personal existence (in all its facets) from base principles ...the first of which (aside from the no harm to others normalcy of a perfect world) should be the lesson that no societal structure/belief has right of existence purely because it is the current belief/structure.

The human race is not a planned structure. At no time has it been examined with the intent of "getting it to work" (not that I am saying this either could be done or should be done).

Earthling human society is an organic evolving chaotic system, struggling with a history of incorrect ideas, corrupting emotions, and self destructive inabilities.

Rational thought is a limited tool in the sense that it can only be wielded by those capable of using it, and unfortunately even those capable are subject to the vagaries of desire regarding whether or not they wish to wield it.

We are born into a game. It's rules have been created by trial, more trial and error. The rules have not been subject to rigorous rational appraisal, they have evolved.The game is fixed by those that come before, influenced by whatever momentary self interests have needed satisfying.The game itself changes, the rules are not fixed. The rules are often not even discussed, but acceptance of the rules is mandatory.

As an exampleThe societal inheritance of perceptions of planetary infinity still rules our thinking today.The current "sold" infinite-consumerism as the ideal, is a staggeringly stupid mass motivation on a finite planet.

Look at any man made structure (cities are a fine example) and recognise that every single artefact represents a hole in the ground somewhere. And yes I recognise that civilisation requires such structures, but the overriding realisation is that there is no rational check on the hole digging (please recognise metaphor).However I've strayed from the point I was making.

Regarding the finite planet, today as a point on the timeline, and historical inheritance.

There is no longer any place to walk to, to separate oneself from the existing game. The finite planet is the first real rule.You cannot simply strap on a backpack and walk out into the wilderness and find your own little piece of paradise.Paradise has been snapped up by predecessors, and the current societal structure allows ownership of assets to be passed on through generations.

Land, assets, wealth, is finite on a finite planet, but deliberate societal disingenuousness implies the exact opposite, that we all start equal, and anyone can "make something of themselves".

And now it is no longer an infinite planet, it has become a very small planet where the birth inheritance is overwhelmingly the expectation that the "game" that you are presented with, is the only reality. And you are expected to play that game.

Personally I refute this inherited expectation.

And yes, I am using this technology (a product of this game) to express my perception, but so what?And too, I offer no alternatives, but I never pretended to.I do offer the opinion that capitalism, the predominant societal inheritance current on the planet, is extremely flawed and fundamentally anti human race.

I can see how it was a suitable system for a world able to be perceived as infinite, but it fails completely once the planet has been downsized.

And you may say, that ownership is just a part of human existence, and I restate my original premise, that just because something is, because that is how it is, or how it has grown to be, doesn't mean it is sensible, effective or sane, for either individuals or the race.

The difficulty in inheriting entire belief systems at birth is the usually absolute effectiveness of the indoctrination.The atheist viewpoint of the "child abuse" of religious indoctrination of kids is a fine example.

We are born into an existing societal structure, we are nurtured (to varying degrees) by that structure, we are educated (to varying degrees) by that structure, and we are expected by that structure to live within that structure.

If I am unwilling to delegate authority to a "supreme lord of the universe", why the hell would I delegate authority to the indoctrinated error prone individuals of a pre-existing unplanned structure, just because they reckon it's the only reality?

there's a game out there, and the stakes are high, and the guy who runs it figures the averages all day long, and all night... once in a while he let's you steal a pot, but if you stay in the game long enough, you've got to lose, and once you've lost, there's no way back, no way at all...

You've put very clearly some of the very things that bother me about life on planet earth. I wish I had more answers than questions on how to change things for the better.

Me too.

It seems as though a declaration of human rights should be designed to apply to all humans from the first instant of birth.Where the only permissible early education of the child is designed to firstly give the child the tools to think rationally and secondly to fully describe the societal structures that the child has been born into.

We currently expect our children to hit the ground running, and to just pick up life skills along the way. They are supposed to be nurtured and trained for life from their first moments by their parent/s, who themselves have had little or no formal training in the most crucial aspects of this monkey madness. The parents themselves having been forcibly conditioned from birth to "believe" in whichever system they've been born into.

If we do not educate our children honestly (and assuming/pushing that "our way of life", "our belief system" is the only correct one is dishonest in the extreme), then we "slave" our children (from birth) to the existing Heath Robinson machinery of inherited inevitable acceptance of a failing status quo.

Just some of the things I didn't learn in school. Things that were not a specific deliberate part of the curriculum.

We were never taught anything about humans behaving towards humans.

It's a joke. The game is rigged. Surely the one thing we are going to spend our lives doing (normally) is interacting with others of our species?Why is this not a most significant study stream all the way through school?

So it leads onto the disastrous fact that we were never taught anything about emotions and rational thought.

If we are untrained in discerning our emotional response from rational response how can we be expected to recognise which factor colours any specific action?For example, if the complete structure of the path to violent action is not described (and understood), how can general societal condemnation and law making be expected to stop it? IRL it doesn't.It is stupid to believe that we can pass laws like thou shalt not act from anger, greed, fear, lust, revenge, etc etc when all we do is describe the titles of these symptoms and do not educate our children to recognise the basic source of them.

"Irrationality" should be a fundamental study course from day one all the way through all education.(and I know previously I stated that rational thought is a limited tool, but it is the only tool that has a chance of improving our species.)

Further, if we are untrained in discerning conditioned response from reasoned response, then we are surely condemned to repeat the sins of our fathers, as we are conditioned "expected" to fit in, to get ahead, to adopt a family, a tribe, a football team, a state, a country, a religion.

It is as if the overwhelming arrogance of the elders is such that they are so assured of their "beliefs" that they are not only willing to indoctrinate their children totally from birth, but they will actively ensure that those children will not have the tools to possibly disagree.

Is there some basic inability to look realistically outside of ones position in life?

Society as a whole seems to demand slaves for children/children for slaves.

So I was born. I got no choice in that. I was not asked if it was what I wanted, it was foisted on me.

So I was born white, I got no choice in that, and yet our irrational systems (so worshipped in the steadfast ceaseless following) have forever judged one colour more meritorious than another.Insane.

So I was born catholic, australian, upper working-class (with aspirations). .........I don't think so.These were the labellious (sic) lies I was breast fed.

I was born atheist, earthling and free (within my own mind at least).

Everything else, presented as reality was in fact an unconscious attempt at my enslavement to my parents and their society's perception (for their benefit).(And I fully acknowledge the unmistakeable fact that I was born one of the lucky ones.)

The world should be described to children as it is, not distorted by emotional connection or from the desire to be part of something more than a random chance generated chaotic point on a historical timeline (a timeline which only exists within this monkey evolved self awareness anyway).

And again I point out that the hardest thing about infant indoctrination, is for the indoctrinated to even realise they've been indoctrinated.

If we do not educate our children and offer them the chance and the tools to think past the traditional chains, then we condemn the future through our stupidity.

Are you actually saying we are all fucked up because there is some accuracy in the points I have made and you think we are all fucked up?

You see I do perceive a real problem in the ceaseless passing off to our children, the idea that what is essentially an unconsidered accident of historical dominos that makes up now, is a "system", or worse, is the necessary inevitable reality that we must live within.

There is nothing systematic about how we ended up here, and unless some effort is put into firstly understanding ourselves, and secondly enabling our inheritors at least a rational "clear" view of "us", then perhaps we do run the risk of being fucked.

If you rail, at all, about theism and the mouthbreathing unthinking acceptance of that particular facet of inherited misinformation, then you should be capable of recognising that what I am talking about is fundamentally similar, just on a more basic level.

Does that not give you the least pause for consideration?

So if "now what?" was a real question, before I pontificate anymore on what is essentially just an personal opinion piece posted on a supposedly rationalist forum, I would love to hear your ideas.

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

Why is this not a most significant study stream all the way through school?

Because the schools are specifically designed for minimal education. We only need to know how to work and follow orders. It does no good to have a bunch of self aware individuals who know how the game is rigged now does it? Can't play a proper game if EVERYONE is a Dungeon Master.

I feel ya bro. I have some ideas but I lack the eloquence and the patience to spit them out coherently. At the moment they're just stuck in my head.

I understand how the pieces fit, I simply lack the knowledge to explain it properly...but I'm still working on that part. You and I need to sit and have a loooooooooong talk over several pints of ale.

EditUnless you don't drink...in which case I have no use for you

« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 11:51:03 PM by jaybwell32 »

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Every night I flirt with death and every morning I wake up disappointed.

seems that what we are born into would also include how one sees things.

Again I am left wondering what a reply actually means?

How we see things is extremely variable depending on how we've been taught to see, what we've been taught to expect to see, how well we've been able to develop an independent clear vision, or just how blinkered we are, let alone the distort filters/mechanisms of emotion and irrationality, through a glass darkly.

Why is this not a most significant study stream all the way through school?

Because the schools are specifically designed for minimal education. We only need to know how to work and follow orders. It does no good to have a bunch of self aware individuals who know how the game is rigged now does it? Can't play a proper game if EVERYONE is a Dungeon Master.

....and that just makes unthinkingly perpetuating the inheritance of the status quo as "the only game" an acquiescing to the slave and master mentality, because as far as I can see, that is the only possible motivation for any deliberate dumbing down.

However, the current political state of the planet, or the ascendency of the race destructive life-form that is capitalism, is not the point really at all. It is a symptom of irrational beliefs, not the actual cause.

The point is, I think, how, as marks on the storyboard do we offer our inheritors a true clean slate? How can we introduce a desire for a concerted effort to actually improve the chances of our species surviving, by informing our kidlings that their options are not limited by the weight of history?

I'm not talking about desperate piecemeal shoring up the weak spots as they become evident, but attacking the stupid trends of world wide society at the very basics.

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I feel ya bro. I have some ideas but I lack the eloquence and the patience to spit them out coherently. At the moment they're just stuck in my head.

Are you actually saying we are all fucked up because there is some accuracy in the points I have made and you think we are all fucked up?

My apologies Kin...I meant to add a smiley icon and left it out. But I was also thinking about nihilism while reading your post. Not to say that you espouse or are even thinking about nihilism, but the overall topic and points raised reminded me of a lot of recent reading I've been doing on nihilism. To be sure, I am not talking about the negative side of nihilism that people tend to think about. I'm talking about the generic idea that life has no meaning. We apply meaning in ways that you have described, good or bad.

Apparently, we have to apply meaning to our lives, and to the larger societies and circles we live in.

But I was also thinking about nihilism while reading your post. Not to say that you espouse or are even thinking about nihilism, but the overall topic and points raised reminded me of a lot of recent reading I've been doing on nihilism. To be sure, I am not talking about the negative side of nihilism that people tend to think about. I'm talking about the generic idea that life has no meaning. We apply meaning in ways that you have described, good or bad.

Apparently, we have to apply meaning to our lives, and to the larger societies and circles we live in.

my italics.

Yes .... this too I understand.

It ( the fact that you need describe it, as well as the behaviour itself) is a prime example of what I am saying is missing. It is exactly the sort of knowledge that should automatically be part of ones learning at a reasonably early age. Please note I am not advocating bashing infants with this stuff, I am saying that there is such a immense range of knowledge of human existence that is never discussed or learnt outside of special interest groups, when it should be basic general knowledge, so we Earthlings have some shared rational basis of understanding from which to operate in our lives.

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

I remember a very few classes that touched on some of these issues, and they're some of the very few that I still remember. A social studies class that delved into the huge propaganda inherent in the advertising industries. A couple of my philosophy classes. A few more, perhaps, and all of them, if I recall correctly, were electives.

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If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

One classic example of how we are indoctrinated into the current paradigm ...

I'm actually bothered by things like the pledge of allegiance for this reason. I don't mean that I dislike my country or anything, but I just happened to be born here. Just as I happened to be born to kindly, liberal parents. And I just happened to be born female with caucasian ancestors. And I just happen to be a particular height and have a particular color hair. These are all accidents of birth. Why do they then become so important that we'll die for them? What is a country, anyway? It's a piece of land, governed in a particular way, with a particular history. I can appreciate some of it, I can disagree with some of it, I can want to continue to live here and try to improve it. But its only a part of who I am. If I moved to Canada or Europe or anywhere else, then what? What happens to my allegiance? Does it go with me? Do I have to change it to the new location?

In a more trivial example, I've lived in roughly three areas in my life. Growing up we were Redskins fans. After decades in New England I was a Patriots fan. And when living out in the Spokane, WA area I attempted (without much success because the Pats still were rocking Superbowl after Superbowl) to become a Seahawks fan. So what? What makes one team more appropriate than another? Just because someone lives in the Maryland/DC, why do they have to be fans of the Ravens or the Redskins? What if you like another team's leadership? Or their quarterback? Or simply that they have a cooler emblem on their helmet?

It seems to be all about tribe. Creating an "us vs. them" mentality. There's a CD that I like, of native American music (flute and percussion mostly). It's called "All One Tribe". I think about this title, and I think about what the world might be like if we didn't have so many borders.

The problem is systemic. I view the political parties this way too. Divide and conquer. Four legs good, two legs bad! It's all about control. The problem I see is that when one group bands together to overthrow their overlords, the "leaders" of the resistance simply assume the throne and business continues as usual. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. -sigh-

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Every night I flirt with death and every morning I wake up disappointed.