Pathfinder Society T-Shirt: Cheliax Faction

When Aroden died, some say the soul of Cheliax perished with him. The once mighty empire tore itself apart, and only through the power of three noble Houses, each steeped in deviltry, was order restored. The empire runs on the backs of fiends now, a perfect machine of hellfire and blood, where morality surrenders to the needs of law and order. It's easy to curse Cheliax as a nation of devil-lovers, but few can argue with the results of their fiend-binding craft. House Thrune, the greatest of its diabolic noble families, has brought the empire under control once more. Cheliax rises like a dark star, as strong as ever, despite the recent losses of Galt and Andoran to rebellious forces.

Features the Cheliax faction logo in red and white on a black 100%-cotton tee.

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A few days ago I was going to post a thread entitled "What does Cheliax, The Church of Satan and the 2nd SS Panzer Division - "Das Reich" all have in common?"

Of course with all the Beta excitement and work I forgot.

Not a major issue per say, but looking at the symbol as it appeared in the Gazetteer as the Cheliax flag, and later on the cover of the Last Baron Module, the symbol is a Wolfsangel, or Wolfshook - a Germanic rune that has been associated with WWII national socialism movements and popular in the post-war NS scene, also used by the Church of Satan and various white power groups. The symbol as it appears on the shirt a little less so, but it does looking incredibly like a NS/Nazi symbol.

I think that is why I found the symbol so powerful and appropriate for the Cheliax Empire, it is the Germanic runic base for the swastika (in addition to the Black Sun).

I can't say that I am an authority on history or runic traditions, but being a skinhead for 19 (of my 37) years has put me in some bizarre circles. I have seen this symbol before (be it on tats, shirts or album covers).

The Cheliax flag is probably the closest thing you could get for a Nazi type banner (the color scheme, inverted swords, wolfshook) for a quasi-medieval game. It is the perfect symbol for the combination of fascism and devil worship.
Now that, is hardcore.

For the record I am not offended personally; it is a symbol for a fantasy game and I bring it up as more of a point of concern for Paizo getting some idiots worked up about their products.

Edit to add: when I say "skin" I mean and Oi/Punk skin, not a goose stepping stormtrooper. I don't go out beating up people of other ethnicities or do anything of that moronic nature. WP skins are actually a minority in the skin counter culture, most people don't know that.

Not a major issue per say, but looking at the symbol as it appeared in the Gazetteer as the Cheliax flag, and later on the cover of the Last Baron Module, the symbol is a Wolfsangel, or Wolfshook - a Germanic rune that has been associated with WWII national socialism movements and popular in the post-war NS scene, also used by the Church of Satan and various white power groups. The symbol as it appears on the shirt a little less so, but it does looking incredibly like a NS/Nazi symbol.

I had meant to say something about this, too. See here, from the Anti-Defamation League's website (second row, last image).

It's a great, thoughtful post, but I don't think Paizo is in dangerous waters. If it took this long for someone to point out the similarity (in a community that has more than a few history buffs), then we're probably safe.

NS = National Socialist, more or less generic for post WWII racial or separatist movements.

I'm not try to raise non-issues to issue status, just bringing it up as an FYI. The shirt logo doesn't look like an exact replica of their flag as depicted in the books, but looks more like the Odin/Celtic cross which has been co-opted and now associated with WP and NS groups. The actual hooks on the shirt are different than the book logos which are in fact Wolfhooks - by coincidence if not by design.

Excellent post Auxmaulous. I have to admit when I first saw them that I did feel like the symbols of Cheliax as presented had a distinct National Socialist/fascist feel. I figured that it was kind of an subtle way to imply Cheliax's type of government (sort of how the Andoran Bird with Sword always brings the American Eagle to my mind).

What I didn't realize was that they were actual real-world symbols. This use of old Nazi symbols could be misconstrued, especially when put on tee shirts. I don't know what can be done about it at this point, except hope that they won't be taken out of context by someone.

Of course, considering the many possibly offensive kinds of tee shirts you can see at any big gathering these days, perhaps no one will notice.

It's a great, thoughtful post, but I don't think Paizo is in dangerous waters. If it took this long for someone to point out the similarity (in a community that has more than a few history buffs), then we're probably safe.

Now where's the dang Taldor T-shirt? I do hope it comes with an ascot.

I don't think Paizo is going to have crowds of people protesting outside their office any time soon also, to the best of my knowledge it has never been a "direct" banner supporting any kind of atrocity or regime. Panzers had the wolfhook painted on some them (depending on the Div), the modern satanic movement just took the symbolism from the Nazis.

It is powerful though...if the minds at Paizo wanted to create an totalitarian evil empire that will put most other rl or fantasy ones to shame then they have done a hell (heh) of a job with Cheliax.

One night in Seattle, while waiting for a bus in the U-District around midnight, I saw a skinhead wearing an anti-fascist patch (a swastika inside a red circle with a slash) get jumped by four black guys who had mistaken him for a skinhead wearing a nazi patch.

I'd hate to see some poor Chelixian innocent get their ass beat because someone mistook them for Nazi.

Not that I would be concerned with "public opinion" (between my penchant for heavy-metal tees and my seal of baphomet amulet), but I wouldn't mind having a Cheliax T-shirt with the emblem a little less prominent; perhaps a solid coloured tee with the symbol on the shoulder? Personal taste, though I doubt that there will be enough interest to have 2 different styles of tees (though I seem to see our flag adorning more avatars than the other factions ... do we have an official head count yet as to who has more adherents?)

Obviously, the intention behind this symbol is innocent. However, it's questionable enough to cause potential problems in certain circles. I live in Oregon, and we do have occasional problems with white power skinheads starting s!*$. We also have some fairly violent non-racist skins who might mistake the Cheliax shirt for something it isn't, and I wouldn't want to be wearing this shirt when such a mistake was made. There are also some violent elements in the larger punk community here who think that ANY perceived skinhead symbol is reason for a fight, racist or not.

I used to tend bar at a place where non-racist skins would occasionally hang out, I've seen some bad fights go down and I've actually seen a guy get stabbed because some skins mistook one of his tattoos for something it wasn't (ironically, it was a Warhammer Imperial Eagle that looked a little too close to a Nazi eagle). It's going to be hard to explain that your shirt actually represents an imaginary country of devil binders to a guy who's looking for a fight.

What I'm talking about is an extreme situation, one that would maybe never even happen, and I'm not saying that all skinheads are going to try to beat up a gamer for this shirt because they're not. I do, however, think it might be a good idea to modify the emblem if it's going on a T-shirt. It's a great symbol, but it's easier to change it than deal with the potential (albeit remote) possibility of fallout.

Anyway, like Auxmaulous said, this probably isn't a serious issue. I just f+&*ing hate fights.

While many of the SS were no more than murderous brutes, political opportunists and/or depraved sycophants hiding in uniforms, Das Reich of the Waffen SS was thought of as one of the most capable of units in the German warmachine. They were considered as a first rate division by Russia and the Western Allies alike.

links

http://www.dasreich.ca/

http://www.dasreich.ca/unithistory.html

Let's just make *certain* that we don't put Cheliax Uber Allles on the backs of those shirts and I think we'll be fine.

While many of the SS were no more than murderous brutes, political opportunists and/or depraved sycophants hiding in uniforms, Das Reich of the Waffen SS was thought of as one of the most capable of units in the German warmachine. They were considered as a first rate division by Russia and the Western Allies alike.

Okay, and many people consider Varg Vikernes a first rate musician but that doesn't mean he isn't an A**hole.

while it's unfortunate that some fascist movements have perverted the meaning of traditional pagan symbols from more than a thousand years ago, this shirt could get you killed at some shows i've been to. wear it with caution and be prepared to get messed with.

Yep, and it royally pisses me off. I used to wear a flat stone that I carved with the elhaz run on a necklace (unfortunately I lost it in Orlando). When I found out that a hate group was using it as their symbol, I was livid.

I seriously would love to start peace/equality group/coalition and co-opt the swastika (and other symbols) in an attempt to drown out the haters.

Personally, I'd love to see it work. I think it would be a serious blow to the hate groups to take their symbols away from them and reclaim them for a positive purpose.

"Reclaiming" something generally only works for those doing the reclaiming. While many African-Americans have attempted to reclaim the N-word, the unfortunate result is that whites and other racial groups now feel that it's acceptable to say as well, since it appears to no longer have the same hate-filled connotation. The last thing we need is people putting swastikas everywhere because a bunch of Hindus decided to take it back.

We decided to change the design of the Cheliax flag to make it look _less_ like a swastika. I don't want to get into a political argument about this (obviously, Nazis are lame), except to say that we are aware of the similarities and have taken some steps to remedy it. The current design is our current solution.

Well maybe not in public, or in front of the minions . . . but when no one's looking?

Maybe right after a Cheliaxian noble uses a trapdoor in the throne room to drop some Andoran rebels into the infernal breeding pits below the castle, (Aka "Club Malbolge")...I think I can see a "squee" going on, maybe even a few giddy giggles.