MR. MCDONALD: This is a Deposition of Dr. Burton C. Einspruch, being taken at his office at 3707 Rawlins Avenue, Suite 303, Dallas, Texas. The time is 5:40 p.m. Present are Dr. Einspruch, Gaeton Fonzi, Staff Investigator, and James E. McDonald, Senior Staff Counsel to the committee.
Dr. Einspruch, pursuant to House Resolution 222, and Committee Rule Four, I am designated counsel empowered to take statements under oath. Let the record reflect that Dr. Einspruch has been previously sworn.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. MCDONALD:
Q. Would you please state your full name?
A. Burton C. Einspruch.
Q. And Doctor, is this statement that you are about to give to the committee being voluntarily given?
A. Uh-huh, it is.
Q. Doctor, are you under subpoena to give this statement?
A. No, I am not.
Q. All right. Doctor, you do have the right to have an attorney present, if you so wish, and I take it by the absence of one, that you do not wish to have an attorney present?
A. Correct.
Q. I have previously given the witness a copy of the Committee Rules, and House Resolutions 222, 433 and 76? and pointing to the witness Committee Rule Number Four regarding statements given under oath. Have you had a chance to look at these?
A. I have.
Q. Have you understood what you read?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. As you note, the proceeding this afternoon is being transcribed, upon completion, when we get a copy of the transcript, we will make it available to you for your review to edit for typographical and grammatical errors that you find in it, if you find any. We will be forwarding that to you when we get it back from the Reporter and have a chance to review it ourselves. Okay. Doctor Einspruch, do you know a Silvia Odio?
A. I do.
Q. How do you know her?
A. She was a patient of mine in about 1962, three and four, three and four.
Q. Let me back track just a minute and get a little more background information on you. How long have you been
practicing medicine her in Dallas?
A. On and off since 1960.
Q. And you graduated from what medical school?
A. University of Texas.
Q. In 1960?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you have been practicing in the Dallas area ever since?
A. Other than two years where I was in Philadelphia, it's always been in Dallas. A little bit in New York during 1961.
Q. So, in 1962 and '63, Silvia Odio was a patient of yours?
A. Somewhere right in there.
Q. Okay. How long was she a patient?
A. I think it must have been about a year.
Q. During that course of your dealings with her, can we assume that you have had a chance to evaluate her as to her truthfulness and credibility?
A. Yes.
Q. And how would you judge her truthfulness and credibility?
A. I would say she's truthful.
Q. Okay.
A. Cooperative, truthful, motivated.
Q. New, let me direct your attention specifically to late September, to the area around late September, early
October, 1963. How often was Silvia Odio coming to you?
A. She was probably seeing me on a weekly basis then, maybe occasionally more frequently.
Q. Were you located in this office building at that time?
A. No, we were using the medical school building on Harry Hines Boulevard.
Q. Okay. What was the nature of her illness that necessitated her coming to you on a weekly basis or bi-weekly basis?
A. She had mainly a situational life problem. She had a large family, she was semi-impoverished, she was an immigrant, her parents were imprisoned, her husband was living in fancy, Puerto Rico at the time, she had all the difficulties one might anticipate a displaced person would have.
Q. And was it your professional evaluation that these factors caused her to seek professional help?
A. Those were among the factors. There may have been some others that I don't recollect.
Q. In the period of September through October, you say she was coming to see you on a weekly or a more frequently basis?
A. Here and there, I think more frequently here and there.
Q. Did she set up an appointment from week to week, or did she come at a specific time?
A. A specific time.
Q. Do you recall what that was?
A. I want to say Wednesday, but Hell, that may be a long shot.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. You see, unfortunately, I don't have the files, so everything is really going based on really clear attempts to recollect something years ago.
Q. What happened to your files?
A. Well, the files were kept at the medical school, and returned back to the medical school. I had a few little personal things, but they were destroyed in a fire when I returned to the military, they were stored in a military warehouse that was set on fire by an arsonist, a burglar arsonist, so very little was preserved, although there may be a letter from her. I found a letter from her.
Q. Do you recall what the date of the letter was?
A. No, but I have the letter somewhere. I still have it in my possession somewhere.
Q. Do you know whether it was prior to the assassination?
A. No, it was long after, long after.
Q. The records that you say were kept by the medical school, would they still have them?
A. I would doubt it, just based on my knowledge of how
disorganized things were over that period of time. I could call. I could ask maybe where some of these things could have been.
Q. Well, would any of the records that they have, would they be records of Silvia's visits to you?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. They would show exactly what days she came?
A. They would show not - - maybe not precisely what day, because that would take voluminous records, but the records potentially could exist, or at least the skeleton of them could exist.
Q. And would those records contain a synopsis by you of what was discussed?
A. More or less. It would sort of censor out material that would be personal or intimate because you never knew who was going to read those things ten years from now. I don't know, I have no looked at those records in many years, but they could somewhere exist.
Q. All right.
A. When I say, "somewhere", I'm not talking about like digging for gold, I mean, I would have some idea about where you should look, and if they aren't there, you are not going to find them.
Q. All right. When we finish the Deposition, we will talk to you about it, and you can give us where you think to
look. We don't need to put that on the record, but which medical school are we talking about?
A. Southwestern.
Q. Southwestern?
A. It's now the University of Texas Health-Science Center in Dallas.
Q. And why would Southwestern Medical School have the records? Would you explain that to us?
A. Well, because she was a patient that was seen through the medical school clinic for a reduced fee.
Q. Okay. All right. Now, directing your attention to the last part of September, early October, did there come a time when Silvia - -Well, do you recall Silvia coming to you and discussing events that transpired at her apartment regarding three individuals?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Let the record reflect that Dr. Einspruch and Silvia Odio in the telephone presence of Mr. Fonzi and myself, Einspruch and Odio discussed the meeting in question that we are about to talk about, within the last month, in June, 1978. Did that telephone conversation refresh your recollection, Dr. Einspruch?
A. Either refreshed it or it convinced me of things. I don't know, but I would say it was helpful.
Q. All right. Please tell us what you remember of the time
that Silvia Odio came to your office and discussed the events that happened at her apartment house with the three individuals that she described to you?
A. Well, I think it was an afternoon visit, she came to see me, and she made mention of the fact that three people came to the house one evening, and one of them was an Anglo, I believe, and I thought that was rather peculiar that one of those people would be there. The other two people were Cubans or Latins, and sometimes I'm not sure or sure of whether the name Leon was there at that particular session, but I remember she saying that people were coming, and it was, you know, political talk, and I told her, you know, to take care of herself, that she might get herself into some form of trouble. But the only significance it had to me, as I thought about it then and as I thought about it even subsequently is that, you know, these people were being exploited a lot locally.
Q. When you say, "these people"?
A. Cubans.
Q. Okay.
A. They were, you know, very desperate individuals, most of them, who were upper-class people. They were displaced and having scant success at reasonable and appropriate
employment, and I felt that in a city like Dallas with a lot of strong self- serving interests at times, she might get dragged into something.
Q. On the occasion that you're talking about, did this visit by Silvia occur - - Can you pin point it in your own mind, did it occur in late September or early October, 1963? In other words, prior to the assassination?
A. I think it happened prior to the assassination. It didn't carry much significance to me because I didn't know it was significant, except that here was a girl who was pretty, and she was known to be from a powerful family, and a little more outspoken than most of the Cuban people who I know.
Q. Was Silvia outspoken at that time?
A. Yeah, a little bit.
Q. In what respect?
A. Well, not specifically about politics, but she had points of view and she was somewhat flashy, somewhat flamboyant, pretty.
Q. Did she make the newspapers on occasion?
A. Not that I recollect. Let me just think, that's interesting. She knew a lot of people. She knew she had access to individuals of substantial and social prominence here, a little different than some.
Q. Okay. When she told you of this story, then what was
your reaction?
A. Just to keep your nose clean for now, there was nothing that she could gain by it. She had enough troubles going for her. I felt she had enough troubles more than anything else.
Q. And when you say, "troubles", what do you mean by that?
A. Well, I mean, she had troubles in every area. Financial, her social life was a little bit unusual and disruptive. I don't know if you know much about it, but she was dating a priest. And in a city like Dallas, you know, you have got to do those things much more cautiously than a larger city. She was running around with a woman who has been active in mental health stuff, sort of an odd woman whose mother is a psychiatrist, who also was going with a priest, too.
Q. You're referring to Lucille Connell?
A. Yes. So, I felt that, you know, her life was getting disorderly.
Q. All right. Please tell us as best you can exactly what Silvia told you in that meeting regarding - -
A. I really don't remember anything much about that meeting more than the fact that something like that occurred. I remember more or less, you know, the atmosphere and maybe my general reactions to it.
Q. How did she describe the men that came to the door?
A. She really didn't describe them very much. It seems like my own image is like it's kind of dark, and here are three people knocking on the door.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. I don't have the idea that it was a big celebration in the house, that they sat down and partied and talked politics the next hour, I don't have that impression in my mind, but it could have been that I interrupted her and said, "God damn it, Silvia, you have enough headaches. Let's find out where your children are going to eat tomorrow."
Q. You said that she described one of them as an Anglo?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. How did she describe the other two?
A. Cubans, probably.
Q. Cubans?
A. Or Latins.
Q. Or Latins?
A. Latins.
Q. But are you clear in your memory that she described one of them as being an Anglo?
A. That permeates my thoughts about it because that's unusual.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Because, you know, there wasn't that much common social
interaction between those people and really Anglos. Now, at the top social economic levels there was some, because so many people may have had collateral businesses which involved Texas, Mexico, Miami, and she does have friends like that who are connected with Dallasites.
Q. Why would that not be the occasion then with this Anglo?
A. Well, just the environment sounded different. If she had said, "somebody who knew somebody invited us to lunch," that to me would have been the way a personal over-above-board social encounter would have occurred. But for a single upper-class Cuban girl, you know, you just don't knock on the door at night.
Q. Why did Silvia tell you of this encounter? Was that part of her therapy to tell you?
A. To talk just about everything. The events of the week is a good format for things.
Q. Uh-huh. Okay. Can you recall how long you talked about these three individuals?
A. I don't think long. I don't think long.
Q. Uh-huh. Did she ever give you their names as they identified themselves?
A. Well, you know the Cubans never - - I'll never remember their name. At the time, and I get a little confused, after the assassination, she used the word Leon, and it
seems there's a possibility she may have used it. I think she may have said that, but even as much as I think about it, even subsequent to our conversation, I'm not really as crisp about it that I could say a hundred per cent yes. Sometimes I really think that she did.
Q. When you say, "subsequent to our conversation", you're referring to a month ago?
A. Yeah, on the telephone. And yet, I really truthfully cannot come up with a real solid solid crisp answer that like I can do on most things I want to. You see, the word Leon didn't mean anything. Who the hell was Leon?
Q. Did she say anything to you in that meeting that you had with her that session in late September, early October, did she say anything to you about threats against President Kennedy?
A. No. No. No. Not that I recollect at all.
Q. Let me just try to refresh your memory a bit, if possible. During this session, did she say that one of the individuals who met her, who came to her door, called her up on the telephone a day or two later?
A. I don't recollect that as happening.
Q. Okay. Even though you don't recollect that, let me continue. Do you recall that during that session that she would have described or told you that this individual called her back a day or two later and asked her what her
impression of the Anglo or Gringo was, what did she think of him?
A. I don't remember her ever saying that to me.
Q. Did she ever say to you that this Anglo or this Gringo said that, "We Cubans have no guts, that we should get or shoot Kennedy for what he did to us."?
A. I don't remember any of those things.
Q. Okay. Would these have been statements, if this had occurred, if these three individuals came as she said, that they did, and then a few days later one of the two called her back on the phone and had mentioned the thing that I just mentioned to you? In your session with her, would it have been something that she would have told you about? She told you about the three individuals, would a telephone call to her a day or two later be a significant event of the week?
A. Unless there's something worse going on, I should think she would have told me. Especially something like assassinating the President. I'm inclined she certainly would have told me something like that.
Q. Does the name Leopoldo ring a bell?
A. No.
Q. Angelo?
A. (shakes head)
Q. As the names of the two Latins?
A. I don't recollect those names.
Q. How often would you see her? Well, you testified earlier that you were seeing her on a weekly basis?
A. Yeah, that's what I would generalize.
Q. Okay. Do you recall when you saw her immediately subsequently?
A. Very soon after. It was not the same day as I remember, because I would remember if it was the same day, but it was certainly within a short period of time, and I talked to her on the telephone during a short period of time.
Q. When you say, "a short period of time" - -
A. Within the twenty-four hours.
Q. Within the twenty-four hours?
A. Yes.
Q. Of the assassination?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you call her?
A. No, I believe, she called me or one of the children called me.
Q. What was said?
A. That she had fainted, and then when I talked to her, she was at work, I believe.
Q. She was at work when?
A. She was at her home, she fainted and on the phone she told me that she recognized one of those men, and then she definitely said the name Leon.
Q. Now, when you say she called you and said she recognized one of the men -
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know who she was talking about? Exactly how did she put it?
A. She was very upset, she fainted, and in a sort of hystrionic way said she recognized one of those men, it was Leon, and I don't know, it sort of gets blurry here, I really maybe am amalgamating a telephone call and even a visit in the same thoughts.
Q. What do you mean she related to you in a hystrionic way?
A. Excited, she was a very excitable person, not excitable in a negative way, but, you know, with a certain effervescence that is typical of the Latin American culture.
Q. But your testimony is that you recollect within, say, twenty-four hours that soon?
A. I think it was that soon. I am almost dead sure it's that soon, it's not going to be a period like a week, it's going to be very soon, because I remember where I was --
Q. Where were you when you got the call?
A. Someone else was taking my call in the emergency room and so, I stayed in touch with the emergency room not knowing what we would experience, I stayed in my apartment.
Q. Were you working at Parkland Hospital?
A. Yes, I was a senior resident.
Q. Were you there the day Kennedy was shot?
A. I had left. I had left and went home, and someone else was hanging around there.
Q. Okay. You had gone home?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And where were you when Silvia called?
A. It's just a little bit vague to me where I was. I remember from my house, some of the afternoon I spent at an attorney's house whose name is George Lee.
Q. On the afternoon of the assassination?
A. That's right. We had some drinks and it could have been that afternoon, it could have been the next morning. I am not sure, somewhere in that short period of time.
Q. Okay.
A. She was not first and foremost in my mind, I mean, there were a lot of paranoid and half-psychotic people running around this city at that particular moment, and, you know, there was a potential for a lot of action. So,
she was really not the first person I was thinking about.
Q. When you first talked to her, and she told you that she recognized - - She said she recognized Oswald as one of the men who had come to her door---
A. Uh-huh.
Q. ---what was your reaction?
A. Probably suspended disbelief that she was upset enough that maybe this was some element of wish fulfillment on the Cuban community and that probably things would settle down to where her statements would become more reliable, more realistic or would bear out what she said.
Q. Okay.
A. I knew that certainly if there was enough talk and going to the authorities that, you know, they could focus on evaluating what she said.
Q. Well, when she told you -- as best you can, she told you that she recognized one of the guys as coming to her door?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. At that point, I mean, did you remember the story --- In other words, I'm trying to get, if you can articulate, did you immediately remember what story she was talking about about the three men coming to her door?
A. Yes.
Q. When she called you right after the assassination?
A. I believe, I did. I believe, I did. Because it was just unusual enough.
Q. In other words, did you link that up when she told you that she recognized them? At that point, did you link that up?
A. She may have jogged me by saying, "Do you remember, Doctor, that three men came at night and knocked on my door?" And I would say, "Yeah, I remember." It might be one of those secondary embellishments of thinking.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. But I knew what she was talking about, I think.
A. That's what I'm trying to get, you knew what she was talking about when she called you?
A. Yeah, I believe, I did.
Q. Is there any way you can firm up how you knew it?
A. I don't know. I keep on thinking about it, but I don't seem to get any clearer in my thinking. I seem to have more of a capacity to disorganize myself, but I believe that sounds right to me.
Q. And then when did you see her face to face?
A. It must have been shortly in that period of time. What day of the week was the assassination?
Q Friday.
A. Okay. It seems to me that I recollect that, that's why I sort of bugged out a little bit earlier to let somebody
else cover for the weekend.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And it seems like it was a nice day, too.
Q. It was sunny.
A. And I must have seen her the first of the next week.
Q. And what happened on that occasion at that meeting?
A. She discussed the fact that this event had occurred and that the assassination had occurred, and she was more like somebody who was upset. "I can't believe it," that sort of disabled kind of person, and I really attempted, I think, really to be more comforting than anything else.
Q. Did you talk about the incident of the three men?
A. If we did -- No, I don't believe we talked about the three men, because there didn't seem to be that much more to talk about, which may be a little contradictory with all these other names that have come up that I wouldn't have been at least curious to know more about it. If it came up, I think I would have remembered, I don't think I would have forgotten. I didn't think, for example, her life was endangered or any caution should have been taken, you know, to insure that you have to be safe, that you knew something that was, you know, of overwhelming accuracy. I didn't feel that at that particular point.
Q. Did you have the impression at that meeting that you were talking to someone who had previously met Oswald? Was that clear at that point? And that that person identified by (sic) Oswald allegedly made statements about killing the President, did that come out?
A. I don't think that I really thought that. I think, I was still thinking about what was going on, too.
Q. But did she articulate that?
A. I don't recollect. I mean, you know, the guy was already -- he had been found, he was in jail, I thought facts would come out and so --
Q. Was he dead when you met with Silvia?
A. I think he was alive.
Q. Which means you would have met with her on Saturday or Sunday, because he was shot---
A. He was shot on Monday?
Q. Sunday.
A. Sunday. I don't --- He must have been dead then, he must have been dead.
Q. But in your first meeting with her after the assassination, it's your testimony-
A. I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think about Jack Ruby and all these people. Maybe I went in on Saturday to see her, I don't recollect.
Q. Would the records at the medical school, if they exist,
and if we found them, possibly show that?
A. They might say, they might. I'll tell you another thing, maybe a financial record, because she paid a little bit of money, and those are cards which are so small that they could be stuck somewhere.
Q. At Parkland?
A. No, not at Parkland. Southwestern Medical School Clinic.
Q. But what I am trying to get at, the first meeting face to face you had with her after the assassination, you don't recollect that she talked about the incident in late September or early October?
A. I don't. I just don't recollect much about it.
Q. Okay. When she was talking to you, was she expressing -- How would you describe her emotions?
A. Very upset. Very upset.
Q. Did she express any personal knowledge or personal intimacy with the assassination that she knew something more than anyone else?
A. I don't think so. I would say maybe the contrary.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. I don't think that she knew anything really special. I think that beyond that something that seemed to me largely coincidental occurred, someone did come, that maybe they wanted to involve her or some of her friends she had somewhere, but I don't think she had -- She
didn't describe to me that I can recollect that she had some later extensive knowledge about this kind of thing.
Q. Okay. But is it your recollection from that meeting that she -- Did she tell you that she had in fact had an occasion to meet with Oswald? Did that come out in the meeting?
A. Beyond the time they knocked on the door, maybe?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. In other words, did she even talk about the knock on the door when she met with you after the assassination?
A. Yeah, I think the same incident was brought up, but not in any more extensive kind of fashion.
Q.Do you recall what your reaction was to her on that day? In other words, here you are within days of the assassination, and you have got a woman, a patient of yours, who not only -- who had an occasion to meet with the President's assassin and not only did she have an occasion to meet with him prior to the assassination, but she told you about it, about the meeting, so can you recall what your feelings were?
A. I remember I told her to really kind of cooperate with the investigation, that if there is something that she knew or maybe even something that she didn't think was significant, but as you know, as a good potential
American that she ought to tell as much as she knew, and that probably most of the things that she knew they would know anyway, so, don't try to be concealing in some kind of fashion.
Q. And you were telling her this on that first occasion?
A. Well, I can't say how much I told her the first time, but that was the theme I took with her, just in general at that time.
Q. Okay. How long did that meeting last?
A. God, I don't know. I can't remember.
Q. All right.
A. I mean, I used to spend, you know, forty-five minutes, an hour, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter.
Q. When did you meet with her next?
A. You mean, after that one?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't recollect. I don't recollect the scheme of the meetings as they developed very much after that.
Q. But did you meet with her -- You continued to treat her as a patient?
A.Yes.
Q. And did the assassination -- Was it discussed again?
A. Not much, it faded into the background and stuff. Except that she did tell me at times that she was questioned or going to be questioned, and that other people had been
questioned.
Q. By the Warren Commission?
A. The Warren Commission; that's right.
Q. Or the F.B.I., which one?
A. Well, both.
Q. Both?
A. First, the F.B.I.
Q. Did you treat her through the summer of '64?
A. No, I treated her through spring of '64. No, even that's slightly inaccurate because in '64, '65, she came to see me once in Philadelphia, you know, I don't know of you know anything about it.
Q. She mentioned it, yes.
A. Yes, that was probably '65. That's the last time I have ever seen her.
Q. Okay. So after the assassination, you continued to treat her on a regular basis throughout December of '63?
A. Yes. I say, "Yes," because it should have been done that way, but not with a specific recollection of things.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. She had some physical -- She had a lot of -- Anything that could have gone wrong went wrong for her.
Q. But after the initial meeting with her, this happened right after the assassination? Is it your testimony that the assassination and those events did not -- were
not talked about?
A. Except maybe in passing, they were not the dominant theme of therapy.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Except the fact if anything came up, I encouraged her to, you know, be thoughtful and cooperative, that would be my recollection of it.
Q. Was it your recollection then ---
A. In fact, I think I also recommended that she sort of become somewhat maybe a little more apolitical , if that was becoming her drift until her own problems straightened out.
Q. During the time you were treating her, did you then -- Do you remember if you then thought that Silvia possessed some knowledge of Oswald apart ---
A. Apart from?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I didn't think she knew something that was dramatically different. I thought what she knew was probably that someone came to the door, as we described it, and that would be pretty much the extent of things.I did think there was a possibility that--- There had been a lot of discussion subsequently, all these people sitting down talking. That maybe some other stories came out that, you know, yeah, I saw him here,
or there, but as my own thought were, this was just a meeting in the night, two ships passing essentially.
Q. Did you think that the Angelo who came to her door was Oswald? Or was it your feeling or thinking then that perhaps this was something that Silvia ---
A. No, I don't think that it was something that she had just casually fabricated. But I had retained just my own, you know, personal doubt, like I would even at this moment, that a mistake could be made with the one time kind of experience that she had with him under those circumstances. Now, if she said she had seen him a couple of times, I would feel stronger about it.
Q. Knowing her as you did then, could it have been possible -- In other words, we're talking about a case of misidentification?
A. Yes, I think she could have inadvertantly misidentified
somebody. I think so. I mean, I don't know how he was groomed when she saw him that night. As I say, my fancy, it was night, and I think, it's accurate, and the newspaper things are all these kind of tussled-looking guys, and there aren't many of those kind of pictures that I've ever seen.
Q. So, you cannot recall?
A. Let me -- Maybe I can pre-empt you by saying something
which may put me a little bit out on a limb. I did not have a felling that this woman had the great link to something no one else knew about that I could have said, "Look, Silvia, you better stay at my house until we get Jay Edgar Hoover to discuss it with you." I did not feel that way. I had some natural reservation as to the importance of it all, recognizing the importance of encouraging her to do what was proper with it.
Q. Okay. In other words, there was something. She was telling you something. She was saying that she had met with Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. Yeah.
Q. And that was what she was telling you as you remember?
A. Yes.
Q. So, there was something that you thought she should go to the authorities?
A. Yeah, or the authorities would make immediate contact.
Q. Okay. So, definitely we know that she was telling you about ---
A. Yes.
Q. ---the man who came to her door was Lee Harvey Oswald? Would it have been typical or would it have been -- Would it have been her practice and your practice that after the assassination, even if she hadn't given you great detail about the October, late September meeting,
should she have given you greater detail in November once the events acquired significance?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words---
A. I follow you.
Q. Okay. That's why when I tell you the story, the story about a phone call, about---
A. I understand. I think that's a gap that I don't understand that would happen. Let's even look at another point of view. Just out of purian interest I might have wanted to pursue this, so I'm not inclined to believe that there was much knowledge available.
Q. Immediately after the assassination?
A. Immediately after; that's right.
Q. But if that knowledge was available, if what she said happened, wouldn't it have been logical and wouldn't it have been according to your own procedures that that would have come out at that session, the very next session?
A. Yeah, or very proximate, let's not split it down to such a fine thing and attempt to remember it. I think, it would have. You know, once again, just on the basis of, you know, here's someone alone and who's dependent to some degree on my judgment that I might have to say, "Look, Silvia, you're going to get killed," or something or another. I would
have to say, "Look, you have to be somewhere else." I know the kind of advice that I would give. The absence of things I didn't do, the absence tells me things just as well.
Q. Okay. And the absence being---
A. That I didn't say, you know, "You better leave the city for a month." Or do something of that type.
Q. Silvia Odio related this story, Mrs. Connell knew it, and she told this story to the F.B.I. about not only the three men coming, but the telephone call to her a few days later after the three men came, where one of them, Leopoldo, allegedly said to her, asked her opinion what did she think of the Gringo, of the Anglo, and that, "We Cubans have no guts, we ought to kill the President." In other words, you have got -- That to me, it seems like that should have been something that should have come out.
A. She should have said something to me. Maybe she said it to this other woman, and presumed she said it to me.
Q. Wouldn't you have remembered that?
A. I think I would have remembered that. I should have remembered.
Q. Because what you have got, is a patient telling you that the President's assassin visited her, not only did she now link it up with the assassination, but she would
have been telling you that not only did they come, but that one of them said, this guy two months prior to the assassination said, "We Cubans ought to shoot the President,." Or something to that effect.
A. It sounds irresponsible that you hear somebody say that to you and you wouldn't do anything about it.
Q. Right.
A. To me, it's not what a normal logical individual would do.
Q. So, it seems that if I can summarize what you said today, you seem to recall her telling you about three individuals coming to her door, and then immediately after the assassination, she said that one of them was the Leon that came to -- or one of them she identified as the Anglo that came to the door, but she never told you immediately after the assassination of the telephone conversation she had with one of the Latins?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. Where also it was discussed?
A. I don't think I ever remember the name Leopoldo or Angelo.
Q. Or a telephone conversation?
A. That's right. Or that she told Miss Connell the story. Did she say she told it to anyone else, I mean, not in a official capacity?
(Whereupon an off-the-record discussion was had)
Q (Mr. McDonald) Doctor Einspruch, do you recall at the time when she told you about the men coming to her door, that she was in the process of moving?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall whether she ever expressed or told you of her living conditions at the time? Namely, was she situated in a large house, small apartment?
A. She needed more room.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Because she had a big family, and also there was some brothers and siblings coming to join her.
Q. Okay. All right. Okay. You see, what we have been trying to pin down is we have got Silvia telling you of three men coming. She told you, first, when it happened, and then apparently right after the assassination, she's telling you that one of them was Oswald?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. But apparently, when she told you -- When she first met with you after the assassination, she left out a crucial link or crucial bit of that story, namely, that eight weeks prior to the assassination that one of the three men she met with at least talked about Oswald as being somewhat crazy, loco, and that he would do anything, meaning Oswald, and that he said, "We Cubans have no guts,
we should hit the President or kill the President." That's a very important thing, if it did in fact happen as she said it happened, it would seem that she would have told you this, you being her doctor at that time, immediately when you first saw her. I mean, because she's telling you something of vital importance, she's saying that the assassin of the President, at least, had an association with some individuals where they actually -- or where assassinating the President was casually, if not more so, talked about. In other words, this didn't come out?
A. I think if it came out, I should have remembered, and I don't.
Q. That's right. Okay. Does that lead you to believe, as a professional -- Okay. If you don't remember, if you're saying you don't remember it, you would have readon to believe that it didn't happen. What does that tell you about Silvia's credibility or the truthfulness of this complete story?
A. Okay. This is kind of a judgmental thing we're trying to render ---
Q. Right.
A. You see, I find it hard -- If she left out a vital point, the question is: Did she leave it out because she forgot
or perhaps the vital point wasn't arrived at until after that. In other words, did she make this up? Did she elaborate on something? Let me say, consciously, I don't think she would want to lie, but to me, it;s very conceivable that in the hystrionic personality, the kind of personality that she had that where she would not lie, she could be -- has a degree of suggestibility that she could believe something that did not really transpire. The only thing about it is that if she told someone very proximate to the event, you know, the story, she could have felt like, you know, in the office where time was limited, she may have already felt she told this to me, and it was diffused in to somebody else. You see that uncommonly, but if she made a bigger story of her involvement that we did this and that, and complicated it, I would think that that has low credibility to me.
Q. In other words, what you're saying is perhaps she didn't tell you in more detail because she had already told you two months prior?
A. No, I think that she may not have told me any more detail, because there wasn't any more detail.
Q. Which would then lead us to conclude that the story ---
A. Has grown.
Q. --- has grown?
A. It's a fish story of some sort that you may be dealing with.
Q. Uh-huh. Okay.
A. You see, you know, you can imagine how this could happen where even though a name like Leopoldo is not a common Cuban name, that someone can say, "Gee, did you see Leopoldo?" And you're sitting around talking and pretty soon it gets all fuzzy , but everybody's saying, "Yeah, he came to my door, and let me tell you what he told somebody." And she has that kind of absorptive personality that she could unconsciously metamorphis this into her own ideas.
Q. She has never said that Leopoldo is Oswald, she says Leopoldo was a Latin?
A. Yeah, I understand. And Angelo. I could see that, you know, that things get a little bit fuzzy.
Q. The likelihood would have been that she would have given you -- if she hadn't given you great detail on the first meeting back in October, that after the assassination, if -- Wouldn't the likelihood have been great if all these events took place, including the telephone conversation that she would have given it to you in greater detail or in great detail on the first time you met with her after the assassination?
A. I just can't answer that, really, that easily. I think,
that the possibility is she would have. It seems the things I remember well, like using a name Leon, distinctly meant something to me, that's the hardest fact I really have is here's a name, a permutation of Lee.
Q. And she told you this prior to the assassination?
A. That seems to be a harder thing in my mind. I can also think my general responses as I recollect would have been like, if three guys came to the door, they were up to no good for her. This did not represent some major -- anything of importance.
MR. MCDONALD: Okay. Well, Doctor Einspruch, we thank you for your time and that concludes the Deposition. (Whereupon, at 6:45 p.m., the proceedings in the above-titled matter were closed).
Certificate of Shorthand Reporter omitted. Signature page omitted.