As a young woman I read the Handmaid's Tale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid's_Tale in an era in which the idea of a fundamentalist Christian dystopia seemed significantly less probable, and as I read the book, I found myself identifying not only with the protagonist, but also with the woman whose story inspired the obscene reality portrayed in the novel.

Later, as I became more familiar with Islam, I became fascinated by how the same story was told by both Christians and Muslims, but with such a different twist. In Islam, Hagar isn't the throw away servant who gives Abraham a son as a mini reward while he is waiting for his wife to get pregnant at a ripe old age. She is, in fact, the mother of the Arab people, the one who found the spring upon the site that would become Mecca. She is a strong leader of her people.

I like misunderstood women. I like underdogs (which she is in the Christian story). I like hearing the stories of women who are ignored and considered irrelevant by their societies, because I think they usually have the most interesting stories. And I like strong, independent women leaders (which she is in the Muslim story).

Ah yes, Hagar. She is one of my sticky points in my argument with god. I've always read between the lines and completely sided with her when coming across that particular story. You can also see why Muslims have always been pissed at Jews & then Christians by default. After all their whole race began because Abraham basically raped Hagar whom he felt he was entilted to since she was his wife's property then tossed her & his son when his bitch wife got an attititude problem.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Jerome Chanes,[32] Pinson, Rosenblatt,[33] Mark Cohen, Norman Stillman, Uri Avnery, M. Klien and Bernard Lewis argue that antisemitism in pre-modern Islam is rare, and did not emerge until modern times. Lewis argues that there is little sign any deep-rooted emotional hostility directed against Jews, or any other group, that can be characterized as antisemitism. There were, however, clearly negative attitudes, which were in part the "normal" feelings of a dominant group towards subject groups (which exists in virtually any society). More specifically, the contempt consisted of Muslim contempt for disbelievers

According to Mark Cohen, Arab anti-Semitism in the modern world arose relatively recently, in the 19th century, against the backdrop of conflicting Jewish and Arab nationalism, and was imported into the Arab world primarily by nationalistically minded Christian Arabs (and only subsequently was it "Islamized").

Yeah, I agree with Screwtape that Hagar is probably not the source of animosity between the various monotheistic faiths. But Jews and Christians believe it was Sara’s son Isaac who Abraham took off to sacrifice, and Muslims believe it was Ishmael, Hagar’s son, who got that honor. So there is a significant difference in the stories.

And the Muslims sort of tell it like a rags to riches story. (Or rags to mother of a nation story). They present Hagar as a wife of Abraham, who started out as a handmaiden, but become someone more important. The incident in which Sara threw her and the kid out in the desert (I don’t think) is in the Islamic version. But I could be wrong. I seem to remember that she and Abraham were traveling together, and he left her and her infant son in the desert (when he went off to attend to some important business or something like that) and she had no water and her son was dying and then this wonderful spring appeared, and Mecca was born. And of course, the Prophet Muhammad was a direct descendent of Ishmael.

But in either case, it is an interesting story. If she was raped and abandoned, she would be a woman with stories to tell. And is she was chosen by god to be the mother of a new nation, she would have very different stories to tell.

So yeah. If I got to meet a famous biblical character, she would be my first choice.

I would like to talk with Dorcas. The story on her is that Peter raised her from death. She is the only female specifically referred to as a disciple. She was known for her kindness, generosity and her willingness to go out of her way to offer help to others.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

^^^ Interesting. So what about you, Screwtape - any biblcal character you find particularly interesting?

I've actually been thinking about it for a few days. I'm having a hard time. My first answer was Eve. She is the most maligned heroine of the bible. Everyone blames her for The Fall. But I don't see it that way. She was the one with the brains and the courage to literally do the right thing. She took the power of the gods - the ability of moral knowledge - for all of us. Without that, people would have been amoral robots doing whatever was commanded by the evil god yhwh. Or, maybe it was that yhwh wanted bold creations and the real desired outcome of the test for them to do what they did.

And in return, Adam, the prick that he was, threw her under the bus. What a piece of shit. And all women since have been cast as inferior to men. She is the hebrew Prometheus and should be celebrated and honored rather than given the shabby treatment she was.

The other option was Pilate. I'd have advised him to ignore jesus H and just send hecklers to ridicule him. The surest way to make a lunatic into a saint is to kill him. But make him into a buffoon, and he is neutralized.

I would like to talk with Dorcas. The story on her is that Peter raised her from death. She is the only female specifically referred to as a disciple. She was known for her kindness, generosity and her willingness to go out of her way to offer help to others.

Well I had to google Dorcas because I was not familiar with her. But she does indeed sound like an interesting character. I was not aware of the fact that Christianity considered any women disciples. I know that there is dispute about the role of Mary Madelene, but it would indeed be interesting to hear the perspective of any woman contemporary of Jesus who identified with his teachings.

I think Eve definately got a bad rap. Pilate was a pussy; he had no inclination that Jesus should be crucified so he tried to pawn him off on other courts, that didn't work so he tried giving them a worse alternative - Barabas, then when that didn't work rather than stand by his own convictions he just "washed his hands of it" and caved to popular opinion.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Joseph, although I'm not 100% sure why. I think I identify with him for some reason, I feel like I understand him, or that he would understand me. He was kind of an arrogant, idiot in his youth. Through some very bitter and rough circumstances, we ultimately see God's plan for Israel fulfilled through what seemed like tragedy. It is an interesting example of God using "what was meant for evil" for not only Joseph's good, but ultimately the salvation of the very brothers who sought to destroy him. Just a very interesting story of God's promise unfolded through a series of unusual circumstances. It is a picture of grace and unmerited favor, in addition to sovereignty and trust.

I don't necessarily want to think selfishly here, so I'm going to have to go ahead and chose some of the characters from the bible that I would like to console, and help overcome some of the terrible things done to them.

I'd like to spend some time with 12 year old Mary who was impregnated by her own son. I'd like to sit down and talk through the PTSD israelite child soldiers must have had after jesus ordered them to kill children/babies by the thousands. IMHO, the bible is a sick fucking book, filled with the very worst humans are capable of, made all the more twisted when it is labelled as "good".

It's hard for me to non-chalantly decide on a character and say "he seems like a cool dude, I'd like to hang with him" when it is such an affront to my basic human values.

For some reason I always find myself being sympathetic to the "villains"... I can usually see how theyre misunderstood or unfairly treated. In the case of Judas, what he is said to have done, HAD to be done by someone, I guess he drew the short straw. But I usually side with the under dogs.

In the Beauty and The Beast I like Gaston, in Aladdin i like the parrot...

If you could pick a character from a bible story (other than Jesus - too easy) to hang out with (if he/she were real) who would it be & briefly why?

The author of Ecclesiastes. He's a grumpy old man who is pissed off with idiots and realises that it's all pretty pointless - he sees through the schemes of those who try to gain power or influence. He dispenses the wisdom of his experiences and sums up a few things really well. Certain things grab his attention and he can't resist giving his 2 cents.

He is short on small-talk and long on considered philosophy. He's got a "Well this is how it is" attitude and adds, "If you don't like it, stuff you - when I'm dead, come and apologise to me - I'm right and you'll find out that I was."

I suspect he liked beer and shouted at people he thought were stupid.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 04:31:56 PM by Graybeard »

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

JB, I think you're being paranoid. He quoted Ecc. in other threads recently. He probably just happened to notice this thread now because so few posters hang out in the Shelter. How about you play nice and weigh in on any Bible character you find appealing. I was thinking of starting a new one on Harry Potter characters but I don't know if there are enough members who have read the series.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

If you could pick a character from a bible story (other than Jesus - too easy) to hang out with (if he/she were real) who would it be & briefly why?

I'd have to go with Enoch. Dude was actually able to befriend and walk with God to the point that God simply took him from this world that he did not see death. He could probably give us the dirt on Ole Father Universe.

Solomon is also a guy I'd like to shoot the breeze with. He partied like a rock star, he had the brain power and disposition of House, and he might have been the richest person ever.

JB, I think you're being paranoid. He quoted Ecc. in other threads recently. He probably just happened to notice this thread now because so few posters hang out in the Shelter. How about you play nice and weigh in on any Bible character you find appealing. I was thinking of starting a new one on Harry Potter characters but I don't know if there are enough members who have read the series.

Yup. I don't know his motivations, but isn't it just as likely that someone would see that you were unhappy about being stuck here and decided to stir up a little bit of interest in the Shelter as a whole? When there is new movement in one thread, it will generally tend to revitalize some of the others. It could just as easily have been a kindly gesture as a malevolent one.

And, by the way, Lori, if you do start a Harry Potter thread, I'll definitely be reading it. My kids either learned to read or gained an interest in reading as a direct influence of the books, so while I don't necessarily see them as deathless prose, I have probably read the whole series a good three or four times, and the first few books at least seven times (I'm a chronic re-reader). So I'll know what you are talking about

I am not paranoid I just don't trust GB. If he were interested in striking up conversation with me he would have posted something directly to me; Not on an old 2012 thread.

So is it possible that his posting in this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with you? That he is not interested in striking up a conversation with you at all. That everything is not about you.

I have tried to be supportive and accepting of you during your struggle with chemo and due to you unique worldview and personality. But lately you appear to be decompensating. I strongly urge you to seek professional help. It is not at all unusual to become overwhelmed when dealing with a life threatening illness and all the crap that comes with it. Getting help is not a sign of weakness. There are real chemical imbalances occurring that need to be addressed.

This thread was supposed to be a lighthearted discussion of Bible characters. That is why I put it in the Shelter - to avoid sarcasm and snark. So please confine future responses to the the original topic. If you want to speculate on who's out to get you start a new thread.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

I would definitely participate in a Harry Potter thread. I don't remember enough about the bible to be helpful in this thread.

Junebug, it is always risky to ascribe motives to other people. None of us can read each other's minds. I suggest that you try to assume the best of others. Consider it a practice for your "love everyone" philosophy. If someone is not trustworthy, your ignoring their attempts to wind you up will only frustrate them. And if they are meaning to be kind, you will have taken a step toward mutual understanding. This is the shelter. We are supposed to be gentle. In that spirit, I would ask everyone, including you Junebug, to not only BE gentle, but assume that others are being gentle.