An open letter to Atheists

Originally posted by Annee
All I know is - - - there is more going on then what we physically see. I still don't believe in a God.

I think we probably need to define what is or is not meant by a God. If you were to ask me whether or not I think there's a guy sitting on a cloud
somewhere with a long white beard who's in charge of everything, then I'd say no.

I am inclined to believe that just about all of the beings that we consider Gods, do exist, including Yahweh; but I think of them as
basically older, acorporeal versions of human beings. In other words, they don't do anything that we can't, given enough time; it's just that they've
been around for a lot longer than we have, and have learned more and had more experience as a result. Usually who we know as Gods these days, are
people who were sufficiently awesome when alive, in terms of what they accomplished, that we've remembered them, despite the thousands of years that
have passed since they were around.

That also doesn't mean that I think any of them are, themselves, directly responsible for creating the universe. I don't claim to completely know
exactly how the universe got here, but I think we have some clues, here and there. I consider Cymatics in particular to be interesting, along those
lines.

Originally posted by Annee
All I know is - - - there is more going on then what we physically see. I still don't believe in a God.

I think we probably need to define what is or is not meant by a God.

Yes. Let me make it clear after 20+ years of these type discussions I will never label anything God.

In the past - - if I even hinted at some kind of intelligence - - - the "believers" jumped on me like "bees on a honeypot". "You're a Believer
- - they screamed" - - "You can not deny God - - even if you think you can" - - "You are just fooling yourself".

Originally posted by Annee
So - - I am very careful how I word anything I say.

My perspective has become, that there is always going to be someone, who will be determined to hate me. That is actually a very liberating thing,
because if you realise that someone is going to dislike you regardless, it means that you don't have to worry so much about people disapproving of
what you say.

I've had a Christian here add me to their foes list as a result of my making this thread, to give you one example. I've also had tons of Christians,
both online and off, accuse me of being a demonic monster. I've been banned from numerous other forums. If there's one thing I'm used to, it's being
disliked.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Any sane person has to wonder about the motives and mental health of someone who claims such a god tells them what to do, as you have claimed in the
past on this forum.

Are you still hearing voices?

Nice, olln. While you're at it, though, you should probably also remember to tell people about Mola Ram, Ma's high priest from Indiana Jones and
the Temple of Doom. Maybe a few of the recent news reports of how rural pujaris are still sacrificing babies to Kali in India, would also help make
your point, as well.

Originally posted by petrus4
Nice, olln. While you're at it, though, you should probably also remember to tell people about Mola Ram, Ma's high priest from Indiana Jones and
the Temple of Doom. Maybe a few of the recent news reports of how rural pujaris are still sacrificing babies to Kali in India, would also help make
your point, as well.

Do some followers of Kali sacrifice babies to her?

Anyway, the problem with Kali is that she likes to chop her enemies up. In the past she has told you what to do. You have stated that on this
forum.

Should atheists be worried that one day Kali decides (in your mind anyway) that the said atheists are an enemy and tells you to start chopping them
up?

Originally posted by ollncasino
Should atheists be worried that one day Kali decides (in your mind anyway) that the said atheists are an enemy and tells you to start chopping them
up?

Olln, I have been a party to many of the attacks on Muslims that have occurred on this forum. I have taken part in several of them, and even
initiated some of them myself. I engaged in fear-based bigotry towards them, before I recognised said bigotry for what it was, and knew that it was
wrong, and that I had to stop it.

So I acknowledge that I deserve what you are attempting to do. If it damages people's perception of me here, then let it do so.

Originally posted by petrus4
Olln, I have been a party to many of the attacks on Muslims that have occurred on this forum. I have taken part in several of them, and even
initiated some of them myself. I engaged in fear-based bigotry towards them, before I recognised said bigotry for what it was, and knew that it was
wrong, and that I had to stop it.

So I acknowledge that I deserve what you are attempting to do. If it damages people's perception of me here, then let it do so.

edit on
15-4-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)

Eh?

This thread has nothing to do with your attacks on Muslims.

My replies are in response to your "open letter to Atheists."

As an atheist, I want to understand what motives a person to choose a warlike goddess who chops up her enemies as their deity.

Does it serve a deep psychological need in some way?

Has she spoken to you recently? The last contact I am aware of was about a week ago. Has she spoken to you since?

Originally posted by petrus4
Olln, I have been a party to many of the attacks on Muslims that have occurred on this forum. I have taken part in several of them, and even
initiated some of them myself. I engaged in fear-based bigotry towards them, before I recognised said bigotry for what it was, and knew that it was
wrong, and that I had to stop it.

So I acknowledge that I deserve what you are attempting to do. If it damages people's perception of me here, then let it do so.

edit on
15-4-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)

Eh?

This thread has nothing to do with your attacks on Muslims.

No...but your replies to this thread, have a lot to do with my own response to your last attack on them.

I suppose that some thread cross-over is unavoidable however the thread you have linked to is directly relevant to this one. In it you stated that
your goddess had told you what to do. I quote below

"If as a non-Muslim, you would see me as a traitor for this, then so be it. If it is also true, that as moderates, they would not do the same for
me against the radicals of their own faith, as I am an infidel to them, then so be it also.

But my own Goddess has pleaded to me for them, and I will ignore her no longer."
Link

petrus4

In light of your chosen goddess, Kali, chopping her enemies up, you must understand my concern at your goddess apparently talking to you and telling
you what to do.

What is doubly fascinating is that you talk about Muslim moderates and Muslim radicals (or was it your goddess?) but when the British PM Cameron does
the same, you call him an Islamaphobe.

So not only do you believe in a goddess that is thoroughly violent, you are hypocritical as well.

Here is Kali doing what she does. I hope she doesn't come round to my house and do that.

Originally posted by ollncasino
What is doubly fascinating is that you talk about Muslim moderates and Muslim radicals (or was it your goddess?) but when the British PM Cameron does
the same, you call him an Islamaphobe.

I did not call him an Islamophobe. I said that I believed that he was someone who was primarily concerned with the retention of his own wealth; and
from what I have observed in the past, he is willing to behave in an undemocratic manner in order to do so, as far as his response to student protests
and such. Because of this, I felt that yes, it is hypocritical of him to be calling for anyone else to embrace democratic principles.

As for the second point, concerning Kali; you are experiencing the same difficulty here, I suspect, that you experience with Islam itself...and
ironically, which I myself did for a period of time. Said difficulty is an inability to differentiate between aberrant forms of behaviour which
certain individuals have engaged in (the priests in India who engage in child sacrifice, as an example I have used) on the one hand, and other people
who claim belief in Kali, who themselves do no such thing.

I made the same mistake myself with Islam, and I will draw special emphasis to it, so that no one can accuse me of dodging the point. I was, for a
time, unable to draw distinction between radical Muslims who engage in violent and barbaric behaviour on the one hand, and moderate Muslims who do no
such thing on the other. A large part of the reason for that, was that I felt that the Sharia punishment for the consumption of alcohol, as but one
example, is excessive.

I have realised, at this point, that Sharia is not for me to judge. While I would very strongly object to the idea of living under it myself, if
Muslims wish to do so within their own countries, that is their perogative, and I have no right to say that they should not.

Originally posted by petrus4
As for the second point, concerning Kali; you are experiencing the same difficulty here, I suspect, that you experience with Islam itself...and
ironically, which I myself did for a period of time. Said difficulty is an inability to differentiate between aberrant forms of behaviour which
certain individuals have engaged in (the priests in India who engage in child sacrifice, as an example I have used) on the one hand, and other people
who claim belief in Kali, who themselves do no such thing.

I made the same mistake myself with Islam, and I will draw special emphasis to it, so that no one can accuse me of dodging the point. I was, for a
time, unable to draw distinction between radical Muslims who engage in violent and barbaric behaviour on the one hand, and moderate Muslims who do no
such thing on the other.

Well, Kali is famous for chopping her enemies up.

In terms of your analogy with Islam and Kali, you should perhaps pay more attention to what I write and not see myself as a reflection of yourself in
the past. My position has always been clear.

1. Radical Muslims are not moderate Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims just want a quiet life like the rest of us. Although I'm not sure if someone
like yourself who follows a goddess who chops up her enemies necessarily qualifies as one of the 'the rest of us' in wanting a quiet life.

2. Many moderate Muslims hold values that are deeply at odds with Western values and not moderate at all by Western standards. If Muslims choose to
immigrate to the West, then the fact that those values are religious based doesn't mean they should be allowed to flourish and grow in strength in
Western countries.

Imagine for a moment if 3 million Indian immigrants followed Kali in the UK. Do you think that a sect that follows a goddess who chops her enemies up
would cause a problem?

Should 3 million followers of Kali be allowed to do whatever they like because their beliefs are religious based?

Originally posted by ollncasino
1. Radical Muslims are not moderate Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims just want a quiet life like the rest of us. Although I'm not sure if
someone like yourself who follows a goddess who chops up her enemies necessarily qualifies as one of the 'the rest of us' in wanting a quiet
life.

I've experienced berserking in the past, to the point of amnesia, Olln. I'm not going to lie to you about that. I'm not exactly a mild
personality. Our choice of ishta deva is usually a reflection of who we are ourselves. I do know, however, that murder is both a moral and spiritual
crime. I don't condone it, and I don't do it.

As for what Kali chops up; she chops up fear, and ignorance, and ego, and illusions. That doesn't mean that I don't have those things; you'll
often see me exhibit them. What it does mean, however, is that I work through them. It also means that if I do something I shouldn't, and someone
calls me out for it, I don't deny it. I accept responsibility for it, and I acknowledge what I've done. Some of what you've written here
has hurt; I won't deny it. You were not, however, saying anything that I did not deserve, and I acknowledge that. No illusions, no
shifting of blame to someone else.

The priests who sacrifice children to her in India, are not doing something, I do not believe, which is consistent with what we are told to do.
Sacrifice of blood and the physical form is relatively easy, Olln. There's no challenge in it, comparitively speaking. How many murders happen
every day? It obviously isn't something which humans find difficult to do, is it?

Giving Ma our ego though; that's harder. Accepting it when someone reminds me of something I've done, when I feel myself squirming like a worm on a
hook, and I'd prefer to try and lie about it or pass the buck to someone else...and instead swallowing, and acknowledging that what
they are saying is legitimate, and I need to take it on the chin. You don't have a personality like mine, without screwing up a lot; without
sometimes completely destroying credibility with people, every few days or so. It happens. I have to accept responsibility for it when I do it,
because I do it often. I'm an emotionally unstable jerk, with a serious case of foot in mouth disease.

Imagine for a moment if 3 million Indian immigrants followed Kali in the UK. Do you think that a sect that follows a goddess who chops her
enemies up would cause a problem?

Should 3 million followers of Kali be allowed to do whatever they like because their beliefs are religious based?

I don't.

Neither do I. If person A murders person B, person A is responsible for their actions. Murder is also not part of my own religion. I can't speak
for anyone else who claims belief in Kali. I can only speak for what I believe, and what I do...and I as an individual, do not kill people, or
condone killing people.

On Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, there's a priest type of guy who says, "Kali Ma" when he's about to take someone's heart from their
chest. So, when I'm playing with my kids, I do the same thing. I'll say, "Kalima!" as I make a claw hand and attack their chest with it. Then I
say, "I'm going to take out your heart and eat it!" and they go crazy with laughter and jerk around trying to get away from me. Now, when I do
that, am I invoking some Hindu gods?

Originally posted by signalfire
Whether you believe or not, your consciousness will still survive your physical death. Many scientific experiments have been done trying to disprove
this (Scole Experiments, for one) and to their surprise, they found the opposite.

Would you have consciousness without a brain? If not, do you have a brain after you die? If you could have
consciousness without a brain, how?

edit on 14-4-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Double slit experiment Hydroman.....

If consciousness can affect the very building blocks of matter far beyond the confines of the brain, then this shows that consciousness is not limited
to the human body. This being said, I find it far more logical that consciouness can exist independantly of the body than to believe that it can
effect things outside the body but for whatever reason simply disappears into nothingness once the physical body no longer exists

-----------------------------------

As for the OP, I completely agree with Hydroman's initial post

This has been stated many times on this site, but here goes again. Many of us atheists were once christian. We know more about the christian
belief system than others. We speak out against it because their views and ideas directly affect the livelihood of others, homosexuals for example.

.......................

There are plenty of other religions like Scientology, Mormonism, JW's as well that are also just as silly.

I mean really, religion is pretty silly. Assuming their are such things as Gods and Godesses which exist as independent conscious beings, do you
really think they'd be too concerned with whether or not you put ur pork sword up another man's hershey highway instead of doing it how mommy and
daddy did just before the stork arrived? Do you really think they even care whether or not YOU believe they exist.

I could go on for days but I'm sure we've heard it all before. Humanity has to move past such primitive beliefs if we are ever going to heal this
world we live in.

P.S I am not an atheist either, but I certainly do not allow someones 2000 year old interpretation of why the universe is the way it is limit the
choices I want to make in life....

Originally posted by AdamsMurmur
]The whole body is capable of receiving information, but the brain and heart are what typically interpret and translate that information for the body.
Consciousness doesn't require either of those things to exist. NDEs and OBEs/Astral projection are evidence of us being able to leave our body,
disconnected from the brain and so on. One could say that the body comes into existence because of consciousness, not usually the other way around
because that would be a miracle.

If you view consciousness as a formless form of vibrating energy, then it can make sense that consciousness exists without a physical
brain.

edit on 14/4/12 by AdamsMurmur because: (no reason given)

How does a heart interpret information? It merely pumps
oxygen rich blood through out the body.

Has Astral projection ever been tested? It would be easy. Take a deck of cards, pull one card out without looking at it, and lay it on a table. Go
to another room, astral project yourself and see what the card is. Then go check it once you've come back to your body. It would be easy to test.
Has this been done?

As far as NDE's go, when people die, they usually see the gods they grew up believing in. For example, christians see their god, Hindus see their
gods, etc. Why is that?

edit on 14-4-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

There is some study on the "heartmind" in
that the heart was seen to react faster to certain stimuli (like a scary picture) than the brain. It's interesting. And sometimes people who had
certain transplants, like a heart transplant, have the donor's personality sometimes merge with the patient's personality to some extent. There are
stories of that and it's quite amazing.

I've never projected on purpose so I can't say. I had an OBE when I was very young though during a severe asthma attack. I don't remember much about
that but I recall a split second where I saw myself and my father from outside the plastic tent and bed that my body was in.

And yeah, people tend to see what they expected to see, but it's not always that way. There are some NDEs where someone of a certain religion sees a
figure from another religion instead, or even a figure that's not religious at all. Sometimes just family members. I wonder what Vikings saw -
Valkyries probably.

The first moments after death are there to ease you back into reality, so we tend to see the most comforting things first. I
believe in most things, so what would I see? I think about it often. But I'm sure whatever first I see, it will be "just right."

edit: People don't always see pleasant things though when they first pass. If one carries a lot of "taint" with them, like bad karma, or a lot of
regret, or just a lot of negative emotions like sorrow, they often see a dark place that can be calming or downright frightening and painful, but it's
only a transition. It's like a reflection of your heart and mind. A cleansing process, really. One only needs to call out to the "light" to return to
it.

Originally posted by AdamsMurmur
There is some study on the "heartmind" in that the heart was seen to react faster to certain stimuli (like a scary picture) than the brain. It's
interesting. And sometimes people who had certain transplants, like a heart transplant, have the donor's personality sometimes merge with the
patient's personality to some extent. There are stories of that and it's quite amazing.

I will have to look in to the "heartmind" study. I
don't see how the heart could respond to stimuli before the brain, as the brain controls the heart...

The Buddhists and Taoists have for century’s said that there is a second ‘brain’ in the pit of the stomach they call the Dantian and they also
include what they call the hart centre in their system and it’s the control over these additional ‘brains’ that is the key to their physical
abilities and longevity

If not, do you have a brain after you die? If you could have consciousness without a brain, how?

I don't Believe in God either, but I do believe that we are all energy and we survive "death".

I've read many books on the subject, the latest being this
one where evidence is shown that the brain doesn't create consciousness, but the brain houses consciousness... filters it.

If we think that the brain is creating our consciousness, I can see how impossible would be for consciousness to survive death. But, when a clinically
dead person is being monitored (his brain) for any type of activity, and nothing is captured, then that person comes back talking about experiences he
had (while having a NDE- Near Death Experience), how can we account for the brain creating that? Although, it could be the case that the technology
we have is not good enough to detect brain activities while in a NDE. Until then, I believe your mind survives death, and that the only way to
experience this reality is through a connection with the brain, which tunes the mind to this reality.

I really recommend this book to everyone since the author mentions that religious people, while having a NDE, mention they saw Jesus, and he tries to
explain why this happens.

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