I'm not sure McCallum brought in anyone to rewrite anything without Lucas' approval or first suggestion.

There's an audio clip, I believe on the AOTC Blu-ray archival commentary (though I could be mistaken), of McCallum saying he kept suggesting Hales to Lucas as a potential writing partner. According to McCallum, Lucas eventually agreed when the AOTC script was behind schedule, but McCallum takes credit for suggesting Hales repeatedly.

It is. Half of of the movie is a filler and almost nothing except Luke/Vader story is developed further. It works surprisingly well considering the lack of actual plot but it has implications for ROTJ.

I'm not totally sure where to respond to that but why, in your estimation, is half of the plot "filler"? In your view does good storytelling rely entirely on complex plot machinations?

No, ANH has a simple plot. Star Wars is best when it's simple. They became too convoluted after TESB.

ESB is richer with theme and character work than any of the other Star Wars movies. It's so humanist in its approach that it's almost a Howard Hawks movie in space.

Well, yes, when it comes to Luke/Vader/Yoda. But everything else is barely developed (i.e. Han/Leia) or fades in the background (i.e. Empire vs. Rebels). Hoth is entertaining but kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. And almost every time I see Han/Leia's silliness I want to switch back to the meat of the story (i.e. Luke and Yoda).

I understand it's not a big deal to most since even less relevant parts are still well executed (perhaps for the last time in the franchise), but I feel that Han, Leia and the Rebellion situation deserved more development in TESB and a better conclusion in ROTJ.

It's one of the few that really stands on its own in the pantheon of great movies.

It's not a standalone movie. It depends on ANH to establish the world, the characters and the conflict, and on ROTJ as a conclusion as absolutely nothing is resolved by the end of TESB. A lot of people were actually annoyed by it when it first premiered (as in two hours and we're back to square one). It gained appreciation with ROTJ (especially since ROTJ is a weaker movie overall). Empire on it's own doesn't make much since (in fact, none of the SW does except for ANH and maybe TPM).

No, ANH has a simple plot. Star Wars is best when it's simple. They became too convoluted after TESB.

I'm not sure ESB has a particularly convoluted plot: While Luke trains to defeat Darth Vader his friends, on the run from the Empire, are captured and he must rescue them before he is fully prepared to do so. Simple.

Well, yes, when it comes to Luke/Vader/Yoda. But everything else is barely developed (i.e. Han/Leia) or fades in the background (i.e. Empire vs. Rebels). Hoth is entertaining but kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. And almost every time I see Han/Leia's silliness I want to switch back to the meat of the story (i.e. Luke and Yoda).

I understand it's not a big deal to most since even less relevant parts are still well executed (perhaps for the last time in the franchise), but I feel that Han, Leia and the Rebellion situation deserved more development in TESB and a better conclusion in ROTJ.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this score. For the one thing, I think the character work with Han, Leia, and Lando is handled exceptionally well, and follows a classic line from where the characters left off in ANH. As for the rebellion's situation I don't see how we could possibly need more. They're on the run from an Empire that has come down hard on them because of the Egg left on their face after the Death Star, eventually hoping to regroup in order to strike a decisive blow. Simplicity itself, I'm not sure anything more would have done other than to obscure the focus on the characters.

It's not a standalone movie. It depends on ANH to establish the world, the characters and the conflict, and on ROTJ as a conclusion as absolutely nothing is resolved by the end of TESB. A lot of people were actually annoyed by it when it first premiered (as in two hours and we're back to square one). It gained appreciation with ROTJ (especially since ROTJ is a weaker movie overall). Empire on it's own doesn't make much since (in fact, none of the SW does except for ANH and maybe TPM).

I see that I wasn't clear in my terms. What I meant was that ESB is the only Star Wars movie that I think sits comfortably next to the great movies of film history, saver perhaps ANH though I think it doesn't do quite enough to put itself up onto that level, as great as it is. I recognize that this is not a popular opinion among some people.

However, I do think that ESB actually can stand on its own, despite the prevailing thinking on the matter. The movie actually manages to reestablish everything we need to know about the story, the characters in their relationships within the first five to ten minutes of the movie.

EDIT:
@LawJedi, no one is acting like disliking ESB is holocaust denial. Please take your inflammatory rhetoric elsewhere.

Since this thread doesn't seem to be getting back on topic any time soon, I'm going to chip-in with my own ESB opinion.

ESB is not just a great SW film, it's a great film in general. ANH is a beautifully constructed film with simple goals that hits all the right marks, but ESB is something different again.

ESB is meditative and contemplative, and it includes rich themes of duty, loyalty, sacrifice, and the potential for evil within us all. It is also the most spiritual of the six films. The cinematography is just beautiful, and the choice of symbolic imagery (such as Luke's crucifixion below Cloud City) is masterful. The bulk of the film exists in subtext, and this is what elevates it to true greatness--there is always something going on below the surface.

I'm not a prequel basher, though I am aware of the flaws there. ESB is, IMHO, flawless.

I'm not a prequel basher, though I am aware of the flaws there. ESB is, IMHO, flawless.

And it's a valid opinion. I love ESB. It was my first Star Wars movie. But this forum isn't new, and these conversations aren't new. The geekerati exultation of ESB has gotten to the point where you can't even critique the movie, we just have to accept its inherent perfection. Subjectivity is no longer even an option. "OMG, can you believe someone said ESB is drab?" That's so frigging tacky, man, especially considering the thought that was put into those ESB critiques. Of course you gotta poke fun that stuff.
And frankly, the critiques of the "drab" ESB given by
@The-Eternal-Hero were far more interesting and engaging, IMHO, than anything said about the movie in years. And I don't even agree with them all! But at least it's something new! Regardless, if we're going to spend another decade griping about McCallum ruining Star Wars and treating ESB as untouchable... if we're going to be the movie equivalent of the old man sitting in the barber shop, still griping in 2012 about McGovern losing, then yeah, I'm going to poke fun. It's the only sane response.

I'm not a prequel basher, though I am aware of the flaws there. ESB is, IMHO, flawless.

The geekerati exultation of ESB has gotten to the point where you can't even critique the movie, we just have to accept its inherent perfection. Subjectivity is no longer even an option. "OMG, can you believe someone said ESB is drab?" That's so frigging tacky, man, especially considering the thought that was put into those ESB critiques. Of course you gotta poke fun that stuff.
And frankly, the critiques of the "drab" ESB given by
@The-Eternal-Hero were far more interesting and engaging, IMHO, than anything said about the movie in years. And I don't even agree with them all! But at least it's something new! Regardless, if we're going to spend another decade griping about McCallum ruining Star Wars and treating ESB as untouchable... if we're going to be the movie equivalent of the old man sitting in the barber shop, still griping in 2012 about McGovern losing, then yeah, I'm going to poke fun. It's the only sane response.

What I said was a light-hearted remark, not an indictment of someone's opinion. Didn't really warrant you jumping all over it. "Subjectivity no longer an option"?? Maybe you should consider the possibility that you're reading a little bit too much into it. Or the possibility that you should relax. They're just movies. Speaking about things worthy of being poked fun at....

Episode V is at its best when it's tracking Luke, as the character's inner journey is deep enough to take center stage even when the visual settings stand out as suspiciously generic. The Cloud City scenes with Luke nail it on all levels, though. Feels like stepping back into a legit Star Wars setting after snow planet, swamp planet, and fog. Symbolism indeed adds a lot here. Luke's passing through the rebirth canal after rejecting his father's path is right up there with the beautiful rumination scene in Episode III where the galaxy's ultimate man-made labyrinth separates Anakin from the love that should be his savior.

Beyond that the Han/Leia subplot strikes me as a space adventure version of a Jennifer Aniston comedy, and for an action film the set pieces aren't really that memorable compared to many a Lucasfilm. Episode V is good, but it doesn't make a list of SF/F films I consider as close to flawless as you'll get.

I'll miss ya, Rick. You said "bold" quite a lot and I always have a soft spot for him on the BTS movie making of Phantom Menace when he picks up the phone right after Ewan McGreggor signed his deal (there's a helpful little pop-up arrow that says "Ewan McGreggor") and the first words out of his mouth is "Dude. (bleep) dude awesome (bleep)." Big fan.

What I said was a light-hearted remark, not an indictment of someone's opinion. Didn't really warrant you jumping all over it. "Subjectivity no longer an option"?? Maybe you should consider the possibility that you're reading a little bit too much into it. Or the possibility that you should relax. They're just movies. Speaking about things worthy of being poked fun at....

Again, no, sorry, you're wrong. If it was meant as a light hearted comment, fine. But that comment doesn't exist in a bubble. Any more than "no, ESB is not overrated." This is not a new conversation for this forum, the SW community, or movie geek community discussions in general. And yet we still can't get through a day of someone critiquing Kerschner or ESB without a "wow, just wow, I can't believe you feel that way" response.

Yeah, just because a discussion is new or unusual doesn't mean its arguments have merit. Not that ESB is flawless (no great film is) but most of the arguments that have been leveled against it in this thread strike me as deeply uninteresting, misguided, and possibly shallow as far as interpreting the film go.

I'm also not sure where all this "Jennifer Anniston" comedy stuff comes from. I'd suggest watching some 40s screwball comedies or comedies of remarriage; that's the vocabulary that ESB is riffing on with its Han/Leia dynamic. And how someone can conflate the classical dramatic structure that's going on there with the hollow manipulation of a modern rom-com, I'll never know.

Not sure how poking fun at something is ever the only "sane" response. Yes, its always good to have a laugh, but if it becomes your primary mode for dealing with something, you're just detaching yourself from sincerity.

Yeah, just because a discussion is new or unusual doesn't mean its arguments have merit. Not that ESB is flawless (no great film is) but most of the arguments that have been leveled against it in this thread strike me as deeply uninteresting, misguided, and possibly shallow as far as interpreting the film go.

I'm also not sure where all this "Jennifer Anniston" comedy stuff comes from. I'd suggest watching some 40s screwball comedies or comedies of remarriage; that's the vocabulary that ESB is riffing on with its Han/Leia dynamic. And how someone can conflate the classical dramatic structure that's going on there with the hollow manipulation of a modern rom-com, I'll never know.

Not sure how poking fun at something is ever the only "sane" response. Yes, its always good to have a laugh, but if it becomes your primary mode for dealing with something, you're just detaching yourself from sincerity.

First of all, sincerity is exceedingly dull and overrated within these confines. But I will agree that any heckling response has a limited shelf life.

I respect your opinions, but I don't respect your approach.
@The-Eternal-Hero clearly referenced Howard Hawks in regards to the Han/Leia scenes pages ago, so its not like he hasn't established an understanding of the screwball comedy roots. He gets it. He just doesn't agree with you. It's somewhat patronizing and disrespectful to come at ESB criticisms as lacking intellectual merit, when the responses have been given. Which is how I feel you are coming across when you say stuff like "I suggest you check this out."

Not big on screwball stuff, so I'll openly admit a lack of awareness with the subgenre. But I'd point to something like The Apartment as an example how to do comedy laced with legit commentary on relationships. If I have to watch Harrison Ford get the girl despite some courting behavior that enters creepy territory at times, I'll stick with Blade Runner. Least the characters there actually have conversations beyond bicker flirt bicker flirt true love.

I know, I'm being so mean to poor, perfect ESB, but what can I say? I just don't think the whole Leia/Han deal goes beyond something I can get from many, many other places.

Well, I disagree with you on sincerity being dull and overrated, if anything I think its refreshing to encounter in any context these days given how cynicism and irony have become the prevalent cultural mode.

I guess I missed T-E-H reference to Hawks a few pages back (this thread moves fast and I've been busy the past day or two) and I apologize if I offended him, but at any rate in that instance I was referring to a post by ezekial, not T-E-H.

EDIT: And there we go. At the end of the day I think The Apartment and ESB are getting at two totally different things. One is a commentary on the nature of relationships in the modern world, and the other is playing out the tensions established in the first film. I agree that its not saying anything new or profound, but I don't think that it tries or needs to be doing that.

To be fair to the Han / Leia banter in ESB, "No time to discuss this in a committee!" "I am NOT a committee!" is probably one of my top 3 favourite dialogue exchanges in the entire series. It's funny but it also is a slam against Leia's rebel / royal background and she bites back at him effectively. Another reason that line works so well is Carrie Fisher sells the last line perfectly. And it does fit more into the "screwball dialogue comedy" vibe that the Han / Leia stuff is aiming for as opposed to a "generic romantic comedy" vibe .

I heard McCallum doesn't even like Empire. Can you believe that?? Like omg, what an idiot! ......oh wait.....maybe he didn't like people who didn't like Empire..........or was it people who didn't like people who like it?.........shoot, this stuff is hard to keep track of......