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PLEASE STOP

...bringing up how much it sucks that we lost Brad Miller.

HE'S GONE!!!!!!!!!

LIVE IN THE NOW!!!!!!

You know, I'm starting to miss him a bit myself... but he's gone, he's not coming back, and IMO this constant harping over Brad Miller (it seems like every other day there's still a post *****ing about the trade, crying about how much it sucks that we lost him, etc.) is really getting old. He only played for this team for a year and a half and he got traded like six months ago.

To put it in perspective: I broke up with my fiancee last June, a girl I had been dating and living with for almost three years, and as bad as that sucks I bring her up a hell of a lot less often than some of you folks are bringing up Brad Miller.

Yes, it's obvious that we could have used him this year. Yes, he's playing awful well in Sacramento. Yes, he's an all-star again. But he's not Reggie Miller (a career Pacer); he's not even Dale Davis or Mark Jackson (guys who played here during the peak of their careers). He was here for a season and a half, played pretty well for us (most of the time), and now he's gone and probably never coming back. Get over it already. If you want to talk about us needing help at the 5 spot, let's talk about realistic solutions and possibilities instead of crying and *****ing over spilled milk.

IMO this constant harping is really an insult to the current team and their success. There's not even any guarantee that the team would be doing this well if he were still here, so why keep picking at an old scab?

When all-star announcements are made, I'd like to hear about the guys on OUR team that made it. When we lose a game and start talking about needing help I'd like to talk about REAL possibilities to get help. And when people want to reminisce about Brad, ***** about Donnie's mistakes/stupidity or moan about how well Brad is doing in Sac-town now, I'd like to see it in the Brad Miller thread so that I can make sure and avoid getting involved in that discussion, rather than watch thread after thread get hijacked with this stuff.

Re: PLEASE STOP

Re: PLEASE STOP

I apologize for the rather bold thread I started yesterday about Brad making the allstar team, that was mostly for Peck's benefit and in response to a promise I made to him in person at the forum party in November. I had to eat a little crow

Re: PLEASE STOP

Yes, let's stop. It's painful to constantly be reminded that the Pacers let the second best true center in the NBA walk this summer for a 3rd string center, a third vacation house for the Simons, and a bag of corn chips.

It's painful to constantly be reminded of one of the stupidest moves in recent Pacer history, let's suppress this memory for good.

Re: PLEASE STOP

Yes, let's stop. It's painful to constantly be reminded that the Pacers let the second best true center in the NBA walk this summer for a 3rd string center, a third vacation house for the Simons, and a bag of corn chips.

It's painful to constantly be reminded of one of the stupidest moves in recent Pacer history, let's suppress this memory for good.

You're completely missing my point. I didn't say to forget about it. I said to QUIT WHINING about it. Of course you have the right to feel the way you feel, and say what you want to say. My point is that you're accomplishing absolutely nothing by constantly harping on it.

Nobody cares. The Simons don't, J.O. and the rest of the team have moved on, and the press dropped this issue for the most part LONG ago. We have bigger, more exciting things to talk about, like having one of the most successful regular seasons in franchise history.

Just be happy the Pacers don't have the attitude you have when they don't get what they want. If that was the case, J.O. would be sitting at home pouting, refusing to play because Donnie Walsh lied to him. Carlisle would be retired from coaching because he got a raw deal from Detroit. Reggie would have quit years ago after seeing two ECF series stolen from him (Bulls 98 and Knicks 99) by the refs.

Re: PLEASE STOP

Yes, let's stop. It's painful to constantly be reminded that the Pacers let the second best true center in the NBA walk this summer for a 3rd string center, a third vacation house for the Simons, and a bag of corn chips.

It's painful to constantly be reminded of one of the stupidest moves in recent Pacer history, let's suppress this memory for good.

Well, seeing as you don't sign the checks, from a financial standpoint, you have no grounds on which to base your opinion. I'd also contend that letting Brad walk was one of the most brilliant moves in Pacers history. It allowed the team to fire Isiah and hire Carlisle, and as far as I'm concerned, Rick is far more integral to this team right now than Brad would have been had we kept him and we had to suffer through another year of Isiah.

Please heed rabidpacersfan's words: Move on. Live in the moment. Not in the past. It's much healthier.

Re: PLEASE STOP

Let's not forget our playoff collapse last year...and the fact that Brad Miller was missing in action for much of it...O'Neal played great...Tinsley played well.... Reggie played hurt... but I remember Brad playing like crap....and even riding the bench towards the end of the Boston series... Don't get me wrong Brad is a good player... and sure it would be great to have him....but lets not make him out to be more than what he is... i always thought he was soft...and a whiner/pouter... marginal on defense/and let any poor play effect his overall effort....I like Foster personally, and think he should get more minutes...if you don't see all the good things that Jeff does on the floor.... well then your just blind or otherwise handicapped.

this is still a better team then last year....we had a bad game...JO and AL were obviously hurting out there... and we kept trying to isolate or post up when their interior defense was smothering... but damn if we didn't keep trying...instead of going to Reggie more...who was "on" again last night...or getting good player and ball movement for an easier shot.

It was a tough game...we will loose more games this season ...it doesn't mean we need to rebuild....we just need to adjust, for the next time.

Re: PLEASE STOP

I can't believe we traded an all-star forward who was a two-time sixth man of the year and averaged 19, 9.5 and 6 in his final season here (with 4 triple doubles) and then went to two more all-star games and helped lead his team to the finals......

Re: PLEASE STOP

Yes, let's stop. It's painful to constantly be reminded that the Pacers let the second best true center in the NBA walk this summer for a 3rd string center, a third vacation house for the Simons, and a bag of corn chips.

It's painful to constantly be reminded of one of the stupidest moves in recent Pacer history, let's suppress this memory for good.

Well, seeing as you don't sign the checks, from a financial standpoint, you have no grounds on which to base your opinion. I'd also contend that letting Brad walk was one of the most brilliant moves in Pacers history. It allowed the team to fire Isiah and hire Carlisle, and as far as I'm concerned, Rick is far more integral to this team right now than Brad would have been had we kept him and we had to suffer through another year of Isiah.

Please heed rabidpacersfan's words: Move on. Live in the moment. Not in the past. It's much healthier.

But you see, in a way, we do sign the checks. You see those of us that buy season tickets actually help fund the team. I realize that does not give us a vote, but I think it should (to a point) give us a voice.

You can parrot the fact that we fired Isiah & hired Calisle as a justification all you want. Will Rick be here in seven years? My guess is no.

As I said at the begining of the season, we are winning so there is no real complaint. But this is a seven year process, IMO. If at any time in those seven years we start to lose & can specifically point to the center spot & Brad is still playing well in that time frame, then yes I beleive that we have a justification for our complaining.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: PLEASE STOP

You can parrot the fact that we fired Isiah & hired Calisle as a justification all you want. Will Rick be here in seven years? My guess is no.

Well, considering I made this rationalization on my own and hadn't seen or heard it before until I posted it here, I guess I'm parroting myself. I'm not justifying anything, I guess I just have a firmer grasp of the realities of the business of basketball than you do. No disrespect intended.

But you see, in a way, we do sign the checks. You see those of us that buy season tickets actually help fund the team. I realize that does not give us a vote, but I think it should (to a point) give us a voice.

And you can make yourself "heard" by not renewing your season tickets. If I didn't like the way a corporation was run or the people who ran it as much as you seemingly don't like the way the Pacers are run and the people who run it, I'd quit buying their product. It's pretty simple really.

Re: PLEASE STOP

You can parrot the fact that we fired Isiah & hired Calisle as a justification all you want. Will Rick be here in seven years? My guess is no.

Well, considering I made this rationalization on my own and hadn't seen or heard it before until I posted it here, I guess I'm parroting myself. I'm not justifying anything, I guess I just have a firmer grasp of the realities of the business of basketball than you do. No disrespect intended.

But you see, in a way, we do sign the checks. You see those of us that buy season tickets actually help fund the team. I realize that does not give us a vote, but I think it should (to a point) give us a voice.

And you can make yourself "heard" by not renewing your season tickets. If I didn't like the way a corporation was run or the people who ran it as much as you seemingly don't like the way the Pacers are run and the people who run it, I'd quit buying their product. It's pretty simple really.

Two things about the highlighted parts of your post.

1. Yes you are justifying the trade & have been since day one. I have no problem with that btw, but let's not kid ourselves here.

2. For all of your great business wisdom, which I'm certain you are smarter on that level than me, you can't deny one certain business truth.

Winning basketball will make more money than mediocre or losing basketball.

So, as I've stated over & over again but I will do it again here for your benifit. We are winning. So in theory right now the trade works. But let's see how we do in the playoffs.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: PLEASE STOP

Actually it is possible to have a bad team a do OK in the books. The Clippers are an example of that. That is one reason Sterling is so disliked.

Also in general owners aren't in the NBA to make lots of money. The Simons for instance have had a very success product out and don't make money off the Pacers in the way they do from thier company.

This is not to say Donnie isn't evil I know that you will never be convienced of that but that we are fortunate for what the Simons have done--kept the Pacers here, put out a successful product and not worry about making money.

I suppose that it could be argued that good owners should be willing to lose money to win but when there is a good product on the floor it is harder to argue that.

"They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

"'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

Re: PLEASE STOP

-snip-
And you can make yourself "heard" by not renewing your season tickets. If I didn't like the way a corporation was run or the people who ran it as much as you seemingly don't like the way the Pacers are run and the people who run it, I'd quit buying their product. It's pretty simple really.

I've got so many problems with that comment that I don't know where to begin.

Before I go on a tirade: bulletproof, do you have season tickets? Do you understand how the priority nunbers and renewals work? If I recall correctly, you don't exactly fall into the life-long fan category, do you?

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: PLEASE STOP

1. Yes you are justifying the trade & have been since day one. I have no problem with that btw, but let's not kid ourselves here.

2. For all of your great business wisdom, which I'm certain you are smarter on that level than me, you can't deny one certain business truth.

Winning basketball will make more money than mediocre or losing basketball.

So, as I've stated over & over again but I will do it again here for your benifit. We are winning. So in theory right now the trade works. But let's see how we do in the playoffs.

I don't need to justify it for reasons which I really shouldn't have to explain to you. I just see it for what it is and have a different perspective of the realities surrounding it than you do. I respect your opinion, you're entitled to it, and you state it forcefully and quite well. But it's not really whether I agree with you or not. I just happen to know that your opinions fly in the face of certain facts which I've outlined to you, but you choose to ignore.

As for how we do in the playoffs, if we get out of the first round, that's farther than we ever got with Brad on the team. Could we then conclude that letting Brad go was a good thing? Of course not. It'll be interesting to see how you make a qualitative analysis when it comes to Brad and how we do in the playoffs because a first round exit will be as good as anything we accomplished with him on the team.

And you can make yourself "heard" by not renewing your season tickets. If I didn't like the way a corporation was run or the people who ran it as much as you seemingly don't like the way the Pacers are run and the people who run it, I'd quit buying their product. It's pretty simple really.

I've got so many problems with that comment that I don't know where to begin.

Before I go on a tirade: bulletproof, do you have season tickets? Do you understand how the priority numbers and renewals work? If I recall correctly, you don't exactly fall into the life-long fan category, do you?

No, I don't have season tickets. Yes, I do know how priority numbers and renewals work. And no, I'm not a life-long fan. So commence with your tirade. Give me an earful. I'm listening.

This is not to say Donnie isn't evil I know that you will never be convienced of that but that we are fortunate for what the Simons have done--kept the Pacers here, put out a successful product and not worry about making money.

No, you won't ever convince me that Donnie is evil.

Aside from that silly remark, what Donnie has given the Simons is a team they and the city can be proud of. He's made it one of the most respected franchises in the league. The Simons know exactly who is responsible for putting out this "successful product." And for that, they are extremely grateful.

Re: PLEASE STOP

And you can make yourself "heard" by not renewing your season tickets. If I didn't like the way a corporation was run or the people who ran it as much as you seemingly don't like the way the Pacers are run and the people who run it, I'd quit buying their product. It's pretty simple really.

I've got so many problems with that comment that I don't know where to begin.

Before I go on a tirade: bulletproof, do you have season tickets? Do you understand how the priority numbers and renewals work? If I recall correctly, you don't exactly fall into the life-long fan category, do you?

No, I don't have season tickets. Yes, I do know how priority numbers and renewals work. And no, I'm not a life-long fan. So commence with your tirade. Give me an earful. I'm listening.

Well, I've calmed down since this morning. And since I normally have a high amount of respect for your posts, even though I don't always agree with them, so I'm going to try to keep from flying off the handle...

But its a personal pet peeve of mine when somebody that isn't a season ticket holder tells a fan that is a season ticket holder how to voice thier opinions.

Buying season tickets isn't a "rational" decision, in particular because professional sporting event season tickets work more like a monopoly that a competitive environmnet. This isn't the same as when the guy at Taco Bells spits in your burrito and you decide you're always going to Subway from now on. If you're a life-long fan of the team, and if you've got a good priority number, surrendering the tickets for a season or two to protest bad (and usually temporary) management is foolish - because the lifelong fan/ longterm season ticketholder is still going to be a fan after the bad management is gone, and they'll have to wait years to get their good seats back. Believe me, I went through the entire thought process this summer when DW announced that Isiah was coming back.

I moved to Chicago, and EVEN THAT didn't convince me to drop my season ticket account. As a financial consultant, this is not what I would advise my clients to do, but I do it because when I move back (whenever, God willing, that is) I WANT GOOD SEATS! (Not that I don't like Section222. )

Since I can't - rational or not - voice my displeasure for certain moves by cancelling my tickets, I'm entitled to other means. I've never "booed" the Pacers (I have "read the riot act" to certain players (Travis) but that's a different story...), but I agree with Peck that season ticket holders are entitled to some "voice" - and more of a voice than someone who isn't putting thier money where thier mouth is.

[size=9:cf54e51c24]Heck, I'm still bitter that Donnie traded Chuck Person for some Pooh and some spare change - IMO that cost us the 1994 and 1995 championships - just imagine those teams with a "third" forward that could shoot like Chuck. [/size]

On the other hand, you'd quit buying their product. Congratulations, you're more rational than Peck, myself, or the others on here that fork out a lot of dough for the team we love. But you're not a lifelong fan. This is *my* team. I went to a small college and I don't really like the way the game is played at the semi-pro level. So, the passion that some people have for their alma mater's team; well, that's my passion for the Pacers. It doesn't pass the rational test and I'm fine with that.

If you're tired of listening to us, , then ignore us. But like I said, its a pet peeve of mine when you tell us how to voice our displeasure.

PS - I may not be able to get back online until Monday, so if you respond I'm giving you the head's up now that I'm not ignoring you.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: PLEASE STOP

This is not to say Donnie isn't evil I know that you will never be convienced of that but that we are fortunate for what the Simons have done--kept the Pacers here, put out a successful product and not worry about making money.

No, you won't ever convince me that Donnie is evil.

Aside from that silly remark, what Donnie has given the Simons is a team they and the city can be proud of. He's made it one of the most respected franchises in the league. The Simons know exactly who is responsible for putting out this "successful product." And for that, they are extremely grateful.

I apologize I did not make myself clear. The line was meant to be read as--This is not to say that Donnie isn't evil (which I do not believe he is) I know I will never convience Peck of the fact that Donnie is not evil.

"They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

"'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

would

Since I can't - rational or not - voice my displeasure for certain moves by cancelling my tickets, I'm entitled to other means. I've never "booed" the Pacers (I have "read the riot act" to certain players (Travis) but that's a different story...), but I agree with Peck that season ticket holders are entitled to some "voice" - and more of a voice than someone who isn't putting thier money where thier mouth is.

On the other hand, you'd quit buying their product. Congratulations, you're more rational than Peck, myself, or the others on here that fork out a lot of dough for the team we love. But you're not a lifelong fan. This is *my* team. I went to a small college and I don't really like the way the game is played at the semi-pro level. So, the passion that some people have for their alma mater's team; well, that's my passion for the Pacers. It doesn't pass the rational test and I'm fine with that.

If you're tired of listening to us, , then ignore us. But like I said, its a pet peeve of mine when you tell us how to voice our displeasure.

PS - I may not be able to get back online until Monday, so if you respond I'm giving you the head's up now that I'm not ignoring you.

First, I'm not telling you how to do anything. I was merely making a suggestion.

Second, my post was directed at Peck. You chose to give your two cents. That's fine. But my response was unique to Peck because of our history, as brief as it may be.

Lastly, I would contend that I am every bit as emotionally invested in this team as you are, if not more. Duration of fanship is irrelevantójust because you are a life-long fan and I'm not doesn't diminish my opinions and elevate yours.

Now, this might be hard for you to understand, but the only people Donnie has to answer to are the Simons. They put up all the risk in owning a sports franchise. Not you, not Peck. I think it's pretty obvious why they had Donnie sign a 4-year contract even as they brought Bird on board. Bottom line is, this is a business and the Simons are businessmen. You don't have someone run your business for 18 years if you aren't pretty damn happy with the way they're running it.

Re: PLEASE STOP

Actually I have not chosen to ignore the facts that you have presented to me. If anything I think I've really tempered both my thoughts & my presentation of my opinions on here in deferance to you.

Beleive me, what you saw at the begining of the year was minor. Ask anybody who was around for my Walsh tirades over on the star forum & they will tell you I don't even talk about him at all anymore.

I understand the reasoning behind the trade as you have presented to me. I even have accepted it, to a point.

But I still don't feel comfortable with our center spot.

I also am not certain that even you know 100% of the other options that were available at the time. BTW, that was not an insult. I'm just stating I don't know if you know

But I still feel as a fan I have a right to disagree with this, even though I may understand why it was done based on what you have told me.

Again, I don't think people beleive me when I say this, we ARE winning so there is no complaint. But if the center spot becomes a problem & something catastrophic happens & then fan attendance suffers I'm not sure it was a good financial move.

But my theory is filled with "if's" which I freely admit.

So in closing I again present you with a & you shall also recieve the bonus of

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: PLEASE STOP

But I still don't feel comfortable with our center spot.

Neither do I. But I wasn't entirely comfortable with it with Brad either. When he was healthy I was somewhat, but generally speaking, I never really liked his energy, or lack thereof. On top of that, he didn't show up in last year's playoffs and I think that was a big contributing factor in the team's overall lethargic play. I know it factored somewhat into evaluating his worth to the team when it came time to re-sign him.

But I still feel as a fan I have a right to disagree with this, even though I may understand why it was done based on what you have told me.

I agree. You have every right to disagree. I was just offering a suggestion earlier, as extreme as it may have been.

If the center spot becomes a problem & something catastrophic happens & then fan attendance suffers I'm not sure it was a good financial move.

Well, that goes without saying, but I'd like to think this team is a work in progress where adjustments will be made around our core group of players (namely JO and Ron) with the goal being to make this team serious championship contenders for the next several years to come. And if not signing Brad helps accomplish that, then as far as I'm concerned it was good move. But then, you may be right. It could turn out that Brad was the missing piece we needed this year. Except I don't think we'll ever know that because of what letting Brad go afforded us. And this is where you and I disagree. But no need to cover that ground again, it's been well-trodden upon.

Re: would

Lastly, I would contend that I am every bit as emotionally invested in this team as you are, if not more. Duration of fanship is irrelevantójust because you are a life-long fan and I'm not doesn't diminish my opinions and elevate yours.

I can definitely agree here. I don't think anyone here would question me and my emotional investment to this team, but I can't afford to go to more than a hanful of games, and I wasn't a die-hard until the end of the '90s. Yet here I am. And you all know I care; a lot.

Re: PLEASE STOP

Yes, let's stop. It's painful to constantly be reminded that the Pacers let the second best true center in the NBA walk this summer for a 3rd string center, a third vacation house for the Simons, and a bag of corn chips.

Hope I am not bringing up a dead horse, but Brad Miller did not get traded for Scot Pollard. In return for Sacramento getting the opportunity to sign the FA Miller we got the right to exchange Ron Mercer for Scot Pollard.

Corn chips are strictly prohibited from being traded per the CBA.

I may be beating a dead horse here, but here is what it would have cost to keep Brad this year alone:

$7M in salary

guestimation of 7.5M in tax if the added salary only put us above the 61.1% of BRI tax threshold if triggered.

another guestimation but an additional 7.5M if the added salary put us above the 65% cliff threshold if triggered.

1.55M in the difference in salary of Pollard and Mercer.

Anthony Johnson, Kenny Anderson, or someone else not having a roster spot.

I loved Antonio Davis when he was here, but am glad as all can be that we are not the ones paying the end of that mess. I see years 6 and 7 being the same on Brad's deal.