The Israeli press is publicizing a ban by the “hareidi rabbis” (their description) of all “treif’ music. It was done by the “committee for Znius” (or a similar name).

Well, anyone out there who agrees -or disagrees with this ?

Personally, I will continue going to concerts by Avraham Fried (one of the banned..),Schwekei and others. And if reb Shlomo zz’l would still be alive, I would run to his concerts!By the way, I ,personally, do not like Lipa’s music..

My opinion is that these so-called Guardians of Yiddishkeit are trying to govern every aspect of my life and I ain’t buying it! Soon we will all have to wear burkas and walk on separate sides of the street..oops! this is already happening!

Are they going to make a music police in addition to the tznius police? That should do much good for klal yisroel, to keep our neshamos pure and prevent our young ones from going off the derech. yasher koach to them! LOL

Rabbiofberlin-I’m sorry to say that concerts are very dangerous in a spiritual way. Yes the singer can be very frum and singing beautiful songs but it is still wrong because it is a Moshav Leitzim. It is so goyish and what happens before and after (and during) with the mingling is absolutly disgusting even if there are seperate seating.

You say that “these so-called Guardians of Yiddishkeit are trying to govern every aspect of my life” Guess what that is what Yiddishkeit is. Did you ever read the Shulchan Aruch? It tells you exactly what to do and how to do it. That is why Yiddishkeit is so special, it tells you exactly how to live your life and doesn’t let you live by your taavos like every goy on the steet. Do you think it is restrictive? No way! the Goyim are restricted by their taavos. I don’t know about you but I am very proud and happy that the Gedolim are ruling every aspect of our life. May they continue to do their work!

it’s really quite silly, as others have pointed out, because so much “Jewish” music has been derived from goyish music.

These are people in it for the power and control. Religion is a power much like political office in its potential for abuse.

Incidentally, I stiill remember in high school a classmate was yelled at for listening to (relatively benign) non-Jewish music during sefira. The student replied “but rebbe, you said this is garbage, not music!”

I just keep thinking that will all the problems that the community is facing this is what the leaders choose to spend time on? I mean really, which is more important a large number of families who can’t put food on the table or some folks listening to the wrong music?

I will fully admit that I am listening to random Irish Music as I type this.

I hope rabbiofberlin responds to you separately, in any case, I must. I feel sorry for you. You apparently are claiming to have read the Shulchan Aruch and since you make such claim, I won’t doubt it. What you apparently have not read is the Rishonim and Geonim who preceded the shulchan aruch, the gemarah that preceded them, and the poskim who came after them. You have not read the Rama who often disagrees with the shulchan aruch. You have not read any shuttim which discuss a myriad of issues that did not exist in the Mechaber’s time, and they argue with each other, mutar-assur, what we call the living Torah. You are unaware of different holy minhagim of different communities, differences between sefardim, teimanim, misnagdim and chassidim and others. You essentially are unaware that the Shulchan Aruch does not tell me everything and how to do everything. You just want to assume that what YOU do is the only way, and you didn’t have to think about it at all! You are more of a robot. Robots don’t get reward for their mitzvos. Very sad. And by the way, your gedolim assured the internet.

Mayan Dvash…I am pretty sure that Yussel said it tongue in cheek….don’t take everything so literally!…

Blue shirt gave a pretty spirited (and rather strong) response to “pstsemgirl”. I’ll add my two cents to his opinion.

What I, and so many others, are getting tired of, are not decisions based on halacha. On that, I have no issue with anyone, although, as discussed on another site, even these decisions can conflict. (how much hair should be covered, how long a skirt..etc). What many people are sick and tired of is the “talibanization’ of Yiddishkeit. Do you think that there is a real basis in halacha or yiddishkeit to make men walk on one side of the street and women on the other??? Do you think that there is any basis in halacha in decreeing a certain song (or singer) “treif”? (Please, do not quote me the halacha of remembering churban habayis in Orach chaim chelek sheni, I know it as well as you and this is a discussion for another time)

The point is that we live a normal life with normal feelings and normal temptations. It is up to us to rise above it all.Sure, you can have certain gedorim but there comes a point that these gedorim beome so absurd that the Klal wiill not abide by it.

I must emphasize that you or anyone else has the right to bow to these restrictions if you so desire. But I guarantee you that many,mnay chareidim will simply ignore it and they will just move out of these places and live elsewhere.

It is a game of control and it has precious little to do with real yiddishkeit.

blueshirt- when I said shulchan aruch I meant Halacha seforim. You are right I don’t learn in Yeshiva and I don’t know all of that. However, I do know that Torah is not a way of life, it is life! I am not a robot but I know that the Chachamim are right. I do think about what I am doing and I hope I do get schar. By the fact that you say “Your gedolim assured the internet” it makes it sound like they are not your gedolim also. You are right, I am very sad that I have to use the internet for school and when I have my own home im yirteh Hashem I won’t have internet.

I know there are different minhagim and I respect that but if chachamim are saying something, there must be somethig to it. Music effects the neshama! A person has to be very careful in what he/she listens to.

Farf Un: No, just don’t make lies about people based on false stories in the zionist media about the Vaad Hatznius (even if it was republished in so-called Orthodox sites). And then don’t go demanding that everyone get on their knees and plead for your forgiveness for calling you what you are, prior to you getting on your fours and begging those tzadikim and groups of people you slandered and falsely maligned with your loshon hora and rechilus for their mechila.

postsemgirl….your last entry prompted me to pen a response….You write ” music affects the neshomo”. Let us assume you are right.

You may be too young to remember Shlomo carlebach z’l and the war over him and his music. The Roshei yeshiva opposed him and even forbade his songs to be heard. (Thank

G-d most of us didn’t listen). Well, I must tell you that thousands upon thousands of baalei teshuvo became that way because of the spirituality of Shlomo’s songs. Today, his songs and nussach hatefilla inspire tens of thousands. Yet, the so-called gedolim forbade all of that in times past. So, what makes you sure that today’s Rabbonim have a clue as to the spirituality or influence of songs? Maybe each individual has a different “neshomo” and profits from different inputs. Maybe their efforts are indeed misguided. Have you even thought of this?

You wrote in your first post about ‘the disgusting behavior at concerts” etc…(I think those were your words)I assume that you are referring to boys and girls talking and mixing, a real NO- NO in your book. Were you aware that, in the time of the gemoro, girls paraded (yup) on YOM KIPPUR and fifteenth of Av before the boys? You don’t believe me? Check the last mishnah in taanis or have a relative do it for you..

I am telling you this to show that the puritanism which today stands for Yiddishkeit is not necessarily the only way of yiddishkeit (if it is any yiddishkeit at all)…

If halacha was agreed upon across the board, there would be need for very few seforim. Check out a public Torah library and see how many halacha seforim they have, you will be in for quite a shock. I can recommend a few if you’d like. As far as the identity of the gedolim, it may come as a surprise to you, but not every Jew who observes the mitzvos has the same godol and posek. Each constituency and their godol, nahara nahara upashtei. It’s been that way for a few thousand years and you should learn that fact and accept it. The alternative is bigotry, hatred and prejudice , all ostensibly leshem shamayim, but in actuality avodah zarah.

You are right, a person should be careful what music he/she listens to. Let that person decide for him/herself.

“I know there are different minhagim and I respect that but if chachamim are saying something, there must be somethig to it. Music effects the neshama! A person has to be very careful in what he/she listens to. “

postsemgirl:

your seichel seems to be in touch with your beautiful Neshama.

coming to this website may be fun for you, but i strongly suggest you gather your willpower and not come here again. there are many clever and well educated people here who do not understand the basic elements of Yiddishkeit. this is not a good place for you to come.

Blueshirt- I understand that and I already said that I am not sitting in a beis medrish learning all day so I wouldn’t know. All I was saying is that Yiddishkeit does tell you exactly how to live your life. I don’t know how you can say that this is not so.

rabbiofberlin- I am aware of what you said but that was in the times of old. Today due to yiredas hadoros, we are not on that level and our taavos are much higher. Don’t tell me that all the hanging out that goes on is like it was in the times of the gmara. wake up!

R’ Shimshon Pinkus says that after 120 a person’s neshama will be opened and everyone will see all the hashkafos that the person heard during his life. music included. All I am saying is that music can be very bad for a person and it needs to be moniterd. What you write about R’ Shlomo is true, every neshama needs to hear different music but someone who is a Baal Tishuva (NOT TO PUT THEM DONW BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY SPECIAL) and someone who grew up frum and went to bais yaakov should not be listening to the same music. you wrote about music effecting you, “Let us assume you are right”. The levim used to play music in the beis Hamikdash to arouse a person to Teshuva and there are more examples where we see that music effects the listener.

I guess everyone has their own opinions of what yiddishkeit is. Enjoy yours! all I know is that I will try my best to listen to the gedolim because they are our leaders and they deserve our respect.

you say “…You are right, I am very sad that I have to use the internet for school and when I have my own home im yirteh Hashem I won’t have internet.”

i don’t understand. would you do something for your school that necessitated chillul shabbos? violation of tznius? if the internet is assur, it is assur!

also, i was wondering whether it is mutar for men and women to correspond back and forth on the internet in such forums (even a glatt kosher forum such as YWN). we all know that its quite assur for men & women to talk (mishna avos), so i am curious if there is a heter for the internet or not?

The “thousands” of BT’s that Carlebach of less than blessed memory supposedly brought in with his pritzusdige concerts and other activities are but a couple of hundred fringe weirdos who consider Yiddishkeit another alternative lifestyle and live it accordingly. I was a fan of his music until I saw him in concert and saw how he behaved.

It is better for Yidden to honestly be frei and into alternative lifestyles than to follow the likes of that menuval and bend Yiddishkeit into another krum weirdo New Age cult.

postsemgirl…It is not my purpose to engage in a long drawn out debate on your words or mine..BUT (there is always a BUT) you say that the minhagim of the gemoro “was in the times of old”

HUH??? If I (or any other commentator on this website) would say these words in preaching a KULLOH- you and other people would jump down our throats!!!! HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT,etc,etc… A relevant example : a woman covering her hair. If I would say that this is only in “old times’ but today, we live in a different world, women don’t that anymore..etc… MY HEAD WOULD SPIN FROM THE ATTACKS ON MY “APIKORSUS” !!!

Why is it always :”we must do it the old way” when it comes to chumros but NEVER when it comes to kullohs??? (actually, you are wrong in that too, but this is for another day).

Do you think that boys and girls, men and women had different “yezers” in those days?? PREPOSTEROUS!!! The whole concept of mechitza comes from that!

SO, when I show you an “offene gemoro” (explicit gemoro) that ADVOCATES mixing of the sexes for a specific purpose, why is THAT view suddenly “old’ and ‘archaic”?

As said, this is what disappoints so many Yidden today- the total lack of symmetry when it comes to halachic decisions. Any new chumro? FANTASTIC !! How about a kulloh?? “OSSUR’OSSUR”.

The words of the poster “Itzik” are the most despicable and disgusting words I have seen on this website. And I have seen some bad postings!!! I have to contain myself from using some choice langauge!

Go put on “Sak Vo-efer” and ask mechillah from all those Yidden who are worth a thousand times more than you. When you come before the “Kisseh Hakovod’ the first thing they will ask you to do is kneel before those holy neshomos that you insulted ! Your neshomo is ashame ,gving you life ! SHAME ON YOU !!! You are the main reason why Hakodosh Boruch Hu has not sent us the geulah shleimah!

Mz. Postsem (or anyone else) should not listen to anything that affects their soul the wrong way. Having someone else monitor what may or may not be heard sounds Orwillian to me (we are at war with eastasia and we have always been at war with eastasia, and anyone who says we have not been at war with eastasia will be re-educated).

It may be a better idea to personally avoid certain music, and have the Gedolim (for each area, what works for E”Y does not work for the USA (such as ballplaying)) give clear guidelines as to what is allowed and not, and let the people decide what they do. After all, this is a hashkafa issue, not a halachic one.

chachom, it’s not just stories the Zionists made up. By the way, what’s wrong with being a Zionist exactly?

It’s well known out there that these people will attack you if you aren’t dressed properly. People from those groups have been arrested. There have been stores burned down when they didn’t think the store sold appropriate things (I know, I have family members who saw it happen). These people really are thugs who try to force their way onto everyone.

This Va’ad Hatznius doesn’t have any real Gedolim behind it. In fact, many Gedolim spoke out AGAINST the actions these people take. I’m not saying lashon hara against any Gedolim – in fact, I support them!

If there is another group called the Va’ad Hatznius which has the backing of the gedolim, and they are the ones behind this, then I apologize to them. However, I believe the fanatics are behind this.

The Rabonim are basically trying to dictate every step of our lives. I truly do believe that we need to follw daas torah but when the Rabonim start dictating EVERY SINGLE STEP of our lives that is ehen you will start loosing a lot of people.

When the Rabonim tell us that we can’t drink water or using paper plates or eating a vegetable that grown in its natural way without a hashgacha WHAT IS NEXT?

Will we be walking around with facemasks (of course only with a hashgacha) so we don’t swallow a fly?

Will we need a hashgacha on a apple that we buy?

Will we need a hashgacha on the car that we drive or the clothing (not talking about shatnez) that we wear?

Dont you think that the rabonim from 50 or 100 years ago knew as much as our rabonim know today?

WOW….i just read through the 15 some odd post on this forum and i decided that i have to respond in many ways on many things…..first of all i would like to congratulate postsemgirl on her taking a strong stance and not letting up even when so many people attacked her….she is absolutely 100% right…the rabbani of our do’or are the amuday psak for us when they tell us that the right thing to do is not to go to concerts how dare you have the audacity to even contemplate going to a concert….the kol korei was signed by many leading rabbonim stating not to go to concerts, when you have learnt half as much torah as they have you can start thinking about arguing with their psak.

rabbiofberlin – the reason why the chumras of old are kept stringently and the kullos are not is simple….im assuming you have heard/saw/learnt the gemara that compares us to previous generations…i’m going to quote the basic idea….”if they where like angels we are like men if the where like men we are like donkeys” the basic idea being that they where 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000x greater then we are or ever will be….you can not begin to be masig the level of ruchneyos that a taana of an amora had…..if you look in sheira avodah of rebbeniu yona os mem tes you will see how he talks about the levels of ahavas Hashem and the levels of avodah that where reached by avraham yitzchak and yaakov, moshe and aharon, dovid and shlomo….i cant say the exact same for tanaim and amorim but as demenstrated by the previous quote they where pretty unbelievable themselves…oh and remember that the previous quote was talking about amoraim to tanaim kal vachmer us…..if you look in sharei kedush i forget exactly where it is there is a story quoted about reb chaim vital and the arizal talking about how if we do little things right in our generation ,due to the tumah and kleipos that we have to wade through to get to kedushah, it is comparable to achieving unbelievable levels in the amoraims times….so after all that said the reason why people jump on chumros and dont jump on kolos….is because they (amroim, tannaim, geonim, reshonim, achronim) where on levels of kedushah that we can’t be masig and the fact that they thought that a chumrah was neccesary kal vachomer on us the “donkeys”….we don’t jump on kulos because when the rabbonim of previous genrations and our genrations say not to do some thing or not to see something or not to go somewhere it is only because we have sunk to such low levels in avodah that we cant do those things with out endangering our yeddishkit….we cant go to concerts with mixed crowds even though there is seperate seating because ossur things happen so yes i would maintain that….and i quote verbatim from your words:”How about a kulloh?? “OSSUR’OSSUR””….

Blue Shirt – I B”H am zoche to sit in a beis medrash all day and learn Torah….the Shulchan Aruch and other seforim of psak halchah DO AND SHOULD GOVERN OUR EVERY DAY LIVES….that is exactly what yiddishkeit is about….there are halachos for anything and everything….how to put your shoes on in the morning, in what order to eat your foods, how you should dress, and yes even when where and what music you should be listening to….and you are right there are diffrent poskin and gedolim and everyone listens to their own….Do you have a gadol that is telling beferush that you should ignore the ban on going to concerts and ignore the bans on certain types of music…i would highly doubt it….even if you write back and said you did i would assume you are either misquoting him or you just plain didn’t understand exactly what he said…

so to end off…yes i will listen to the ban placed on music by the rabbbonim i will not go to concerts and i will watch as girls parade up and down the streets on yom kippur as rabbiofberlin wants me to do becaus i listen to the gedolim of this and past generations so that i will get Sechar in the world to come….like the meselis yesharim and every other mussar sefer in the world says…the whole point of this world is to get sechar so that you can enjoy the ziv hashechinah in the next world…im going to do what the rabbonim say and maybe sacrifice a little of that teivah and enjoyment of music in this world for my enjoyment in the next……are you?????????

I’m amazed as to how many people havbe bought into the Artscroll dreamworld of the idyllic past generations. I realize that many boys yeshiva never study Neviim

but our ancestors were contantly being punished for worshipping idols ( real avoda zorah ). Any one ever hear of the Sadduccees, the Hellenizers, the Karaites?

Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%

of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais. They stayed frum out of habit. Under the church, you were either Catholic or Jewish, you couldn’t be nothing. Chassidus took hold because it told the masses that even though you couldn’t learn, you could come close tp Hashem thru singing. And, as soon as the ghettos opened, the vast majority of these jew by habit left the ghetto and never looked back.

Kiruv and the New Age nonsense of Carlebach, neo-Chassidism loosely based on a strange combination of a few pages of Likutei Moharan and Kabbalah cults have nothing to do with one another. We do not lower ourselves and allow all kinds of krum ideas to penetrate our communities and call it kiruv. Carlebach was a dishonest freak who should have said outright that he was not frum as his buddy Zalman Schachter did and still does.

And one thing is for sure, I don’t listen to Carlebach in this world and I won’t be listening to him in the next world either – because I am not headed to that place where the boiler room operates 24/7 and where the loudspeaker plays Carlebach all day.

As for the ban, it goes a little too far – but a hashgocho or rating system on music, including albums, concerts and videos, is not a bad idea.

The words of the poster “Itzik” are the most despicable and disgusting words I have seen on this website. And I have seen some bad postings!!! I have to contain myself from using some choice langauge!

Go put on “Sak Vo-efer” and ask mechillah from all those Yidden who are worth a thousand times more than you. When you come before the “Kisseh Hakovod’ the first thing they will ask you to do is kneel before those holy neshomos that you insulted ! Your neshomo is ashame ,gving you life ! SHAME ON YOU !!! You are the main reason why Hakodosh Boruch Hu has not sent us the geulah shleimah!

BS”D

Thanks for the laugh, reformrabbiofberlin. I haven’t laughed this hard since a couple of Purims ago – but I do much better Carlebach imitations than your “holy neshomos” shtus above.

enough with the rabbonim deciding that they are our da’as torah. enough with everybody telling us who our gedolim are. we have a right to follow our rabbonim in America, and not to have to continue to bow before the rabbonim of Israel. They are not our rabbonim … America is very different than Israel, but they don’t seem to realize that. Maybe it’s time that they did

I have a few minutes to comment on “gaon atzum”. In truth, you miss the point totally. You are talking about gedolei olam and all the greatest Yidden in our history. Clearly, every person, and certainly every Godol, throughout the centuries was entitles to pile upon hIMSELF chumroh upon chumroh.NO one ever denied this.If you feel that you should not go to a concert, tovo olecho brocho. If you want to filter your water, ditto. This is fine. We are talking here about the KLAL. As you are a “gaon atzum’ you surely konw that the chachomim never wanted to make a “gezeiro she-ein hazibbur jochol la-amod bo”. A lot of the stuff going on now is in this ‘geder”. Do you honestly think that banning CD’s of Jewish songs will mean anything for the Klal?Pray tell me, what do you want the Klal to do on a Motzei Shabbos? Is it better if they go the movies or, G-d forbid,worse? Additionally, if there is separate seating, what is wrong with that? By banning ALL concerts, you will surely cause people to go to any concert and ignore the word of Chachomim. There is a saying that a Possek needs a “fifth shulchan aruch”. I suggest that, in this case, this was absent.

Lastly, according to you Bais Hillel should just pack up and go home as there is no room for “Koach de-heteira odif”

well, the “rosho” itzik stays up late on motzei shabbos to continue denigrating the holy Yidden, like all “resho-im’ in our history. Don’t worry about boiler rooms “le-achar missah” I can guarantee you that you will not see a good end to your own life.