We know most of the people; especially people leaving in non liberal countries are homophobia. Some people can go to the extent of harassing, gay bashing, killing and several kinds of discrimination just only because someone is homosexual. Those things has forced many gays and lesbians to be in the closet for most of their lives.No body cannot deny the fact that homosexuality is found in every country and cities in this world, be it Amesterdam, Las vegas, Vatican, Jerusalem, Mecca, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Ethiopia, China, Bangkok………etc . Some says there are many in USA, Amesterdam and small or not found in Iran or Mecca or Vatican. If they are counting and comparing with the ones out of closet with the closet ones then they are correct. Wikipedia encyclopedia states that every country has at least 1-2% (estimated to be 65-130 million; the Chinese government alone estimates 30 million) or more of who are leaving with this life.

One major factor for many to become homophobia is that of religion, though some religions are ok with it like the Anglican Church. But what does the Christian bible really says about homosexuality? As most of us think, is it unforgivable sin? I am not here to ague that it is not a sin, it might or it might not be but if it is a sin and compared to other common sins like adultery (cheating on your wife), stealing, killing, raping, genocide, fornication (sex with out marriage), prostitution, insulting god/holy spirit is it the worst one? The way some people are homophobia makes it look like the worst?

The story about Sodom and Gomorrah accounts 99% of the time why Christian believers think it’s the worst sin. If you can read all bibles verses referencing to this account there is not a single direct mention of homosexuality being the reason for it being destroyed by god, instead it was because idol worshiping, fornication, adultery and lies, not helping the poor and needy and not welcoming guests. Read the following verses in Old Testament and judge for yourself. The Bible itself gives us clear very easy to understand reason why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed on contrary to our misinterpreted traditional beliefs, it says these:

Deuteronomy 29:23-27 It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger. 24 All the nations will ask: “Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?” 25 And the answer will be: “It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their ancestors, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. 26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. 27 Therefore the LORD’s anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book.In Ezekiel 16:48-50 God compares Jerusalem to Sodom, saying “Sodom never did what you and your daughters have done.” He explains that the sin of Sodom was that “She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.” God then sent an angel to rain hell fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gomorrah.In Jeremiah 23:14, Jeremiah 49:17-18, Jeremiah 50:39-40 and Lamentations 4:6the prophet associates Sodom and Gomorrah with adultery and lies, prophesies the fate of Edom, south of the Dead Sea, prophesies the fate of Babylon and uses Sodom as a comparison.If Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality, why don’t any of the many verses in the Bible that speak of Sodom and Gomorrah says its because of homosexuality directly or indirectly? These are the other verses: Deut. 29:23, 32:32; Wis. 19:14-17; Isa. 3:9, 13:19; Jer. 23:14, 49:18, 50:40; Lam. 4:6;Ezek. 16:46-48; Amos 4:11; Zeph. 2:9; Luke 17:29; Rom. 9:29; 2 Pet. 2:6; Jude 7.And for some of you who still insist the traditional belief of the relation ship between Sodom and homosexuality is correct, in the new testament indeed Jesus Christ did not consider it as a big unforgivable sin .After all Jesus Christ is god, part of trinity and the greatest of all prophets including Abraham and Moses, angels, holy peoples, popes, monks; therefore, what ever he said can indeed make the old testament null and void. Followings are the verses in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah from New testament:

In Matthew 10:1-15, cf. Luke 10:1-12, Jesus declares certain cities more damnable than Sodom and Gomorrah, due to their response to Jesus’ disciples, in the light of greater grace (RSV):“And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor’rah than for that town.”In Matthew 11:20-24 Jesus prophesies the fate of some cities where he did some of his works (RSV):“And you, Caper’na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”Direct reference of Homosexuality in bible (very important)

10The disciples said to Him, If the case of a man with his wife is like this, it is neither profitable nor advisable to marry.

11But He said to them, Not all men can accept this saying, but it is for those to whom [the capacity to receive] it has been given.

12For there are eunuchs who have been born incapable of marriage; and there are eunuchs who have been made so by men; and there are eunuchs who have made themselves incapable of marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let him who is able to accept this accept it.

Now Matthew 19:12 is clearly about homosexuality,. Eunches may refer to slaves, trusted ones, faithful ones and believers and Indeed our lord jesus said that that there are eunches who are born to be incapable of marriages which directly refers to homosexualy. With this verse our Jesus is telling us that homosexuality is by birth and not the lifestyle to choose to be. If it is by birth then it is god who made homosexuals to be homosexuals. If it is by birth then how can we challenge our creator for making a mistake?

In New Testament there was no verse which condemns homosexuality or makes it as unforgivable sin directly or indirectly. The reason why we are Christians is because we believe in Jesus and his sayings written in New Testament. Sometimes old and new testament contradicts each other but when that happens we side with the new testament because that’s what makes us Christians. Some contradictions are as follows:

On old testament: Leviticus 20:10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.Contradicts with this verse:

On New Testament: John 8 “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”…………. he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”……………….. those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left………………………. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”Based on the above verses Jesus declared that every sin that was considered unforgivable in the book of old testament (the law) can indeed be forgivable if we believe in Jesus Christ, that’s why he was considered the savior. If we don’t believe in him and in the New Testament why we dare call ourselves Christians:

John 8: When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of lifeThe only unforgivable sin is insulting the holy spirit which is according to the New Testament book, which is above of any Christian books and the one and only book which can make any other books null and void!

Matthew 12:31: And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.2 Cor. 5:17: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!2 Cor. 5:19: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.2 Cor. 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.Rom. 6:15-18 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.In my argument I don’t want to be mistaken as saying homosexuality is not a sin and that homosexuals should be a priest or be blessed in a Christian church for their marriage. I am a liberal Christian and am totally against that. What I am arguing about is that based on the New Testament every sin is equal but every sinner is not equal, a sinner who is a true Christian believer and believes in Jesus Christ is closer to him than anyone else. Lets not make homosexuality as any different than most of us sine everyday, how many of us would raise our hand if we were asked if we were virgins on the day of our marriage(fornication), if we never slept with prostitute, never cheat on our wives (adultery) or even fantasizing about other than our wives (based on old testament it is as equal as we indeed cheat), never lied etc ….if all these question were asked at the same time I doubt if there is any single hand raised, yet those were the sins done by the people of the Sodom and Gomorrah. Whenever Sodom story comes up why do we always think of the homosexuals? So that we make our sins ok for us to do it?

In Leviticus 20:10 Moses law states that both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death by stoning while in John 8 Jesus has made that law void, he did not condemn the adulteress but acknowledged it as a sin which can be forgivable as long us she believes in Jesus. In John 8 Jesus said that if any one did not sin, he or she shall condemn you, then what happened every one runs away except Jesus, so what this means is that to condemn any one you shall not be a sinner and that the only person on this planet who has not sinned is our lord and savior Jesus Christ. So in my conclusion no body on this planet be it the pope, priest, monk, state government or anyone else by basing their justification on the bible and Christianity has the right to condemn/harass/discriminate/imprison/kill any sinner (adulterer/liar/homosexual………) so long us they didn’t cause any damage to anyone. If any one should be condemned/imprisoned or killed it was supposed to be those ones who have dishonored/insulted the holy spirit/ God !

So I think what we have those nasty wrong perceptions like homosexuality is evil, satanic, unforgivable sin and that they should be condemned by basing our justification on bible is a result of our misinterpretation; by doing so we are not benefiting, infact it is us who are doing the unforgivable sin indirectly by condemning what god did not tell us to condemn or what has god amended his teaching by his son our lord and Savior Jesus Christ and by not respecting gods word, it is us who are dishonoring him not anybody else. God is unchangeable. God’s word is unchangeable too.

In Matthew 24:35, the Lord Jesus said, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”Revelation 22:18-19, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.Proverbs 30:5-6, Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

In my argument I don’t want to be mistaken as saying homosexuality is not a sin and that homosexuals should be a priest or be blessed in a Christian church for their marriage. I am a liberal Christian and am totally against that. What I am arguing about is that based on the New Testament every sin is equal but every sinner is not equal, a sinner who is a true Christian believer and believes in Jesus Christ is closer to him than anyone else. Lets not make homosexuality as any different than most of us sine everyday, how many of us would raise our hand if we were asked if we were virgins on the day of our marriage(fornication), if we never slept with prostitute, never cheat on our wives (adultery) or even fantasizing about other than our wives (based on old testament it is as equal as we indeed cheat), never lied etc ….if all these question were asked at the same time I doubt if there is any single hand raised, yet those were the sins done by the people of the Sodom and Gomorrah. Whenever Sodom story comes up why do we always think of the homosexuals? So that we make our sins ok for us to do it?

...

So I think what we have those nasty wrong perceptions like homosexuality is evil, satanic, unforgivable sin and that they should be condemned by basing our justification on bible is a result of our misinterpretation; by doing so we are not benefiting, infact it is us who are doing the unforgivable sin indirectly by condemning what god did not tell us to condemn or what has god amended his teaching by his son our lord and Savior Jesus Christ and by not respecting gods word, it is us who are dishonoring him not anybody else. God is unchangeable. God’s word is unchangeable too.

Caption inserted by moderator to make post compliant with our rule against posting naked links. Next time, please do this yourself. -PtA

« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 02:53:52 PM by PeterTheAleut »

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

It is not important whether or not homosexuality (i.e homosexual inclinations, desires, profession, and actions) is a sin greater than any other sin. The fact is that it is a sin, and thus should be avoided, just as heterosexual fornication and adultery (including heterosexual lustful inclinations, desires, profession, and actions) are sins that should be avoided. If you know that the Church teaches that it is a sin, and that the Bible teaches that it is a sin, then why spend so much time trying to downplay the significance of this sin? If others judge homosexuals in a self-righteous and hypocritical manner, then God will judge them. But true Christian compassion should compel us to caution ourselves and others against any and all sins. To condemn homosexuality as a sinful perversion does not make someone "homophobic," nor does it mean that we condemn the homosexual individual.

Selam

« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 04:07:44 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »

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"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

We are not God. Only God can judge figs. But for the grace of God, I would be a fig too.

Selam

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"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I did not write all that. I found it from the blog, it seems the guy got it from essay for a Debate in one of psychology/theology classes in united states. I found this essay while I was searching informations about homosexuality and chrstianity hopping to find something that could help my patients. In class they did not teach us human sexuality and bible. By the way I am a psychiatrist graduated from Addis Ababa University. I give some private counseling service and I have few patients whom I give regular counseling dealing with this problem. Most of them dont want to tell me their secrets but after a few meetings when I sound open minded, not conservative, democratic to them they tell me all their secrets and I listen to them and talk about all the possible solutions openly, I never judged any one of them. I love my job, I love to help people this is why I become a psychiatrist! From them I receive 2 common issues one is they ask me why they are different and the other one is they leave in constant fear of rejection, discrimination and perhaps imprisonment. I read research papers from internet and I try to give them answer to their questions, and for the discrimination (some of them are thinking about suicide) I give them counseling on how to deal with it.

My answer to their questions on why they are different was based only on scientific research papers, but when I read the essay on what bible says about homosexuality Matthew 19:12 I was stunned as there is some similarity to what the science says.The agreed reason used to be both genetic(by birth) and enviromental influnce but recently Most researches are more favoring genetics. I share these kind of infos with my patients so that they dont get depressed

Sir, why on earth did you choose the username that you did? You must have absolutely no intentions of becoming a real part of this community. My prediction is when you exhaust the homosexual thread we will never hear from you again. Please prove me wrong. Please!

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Sir, why on earth did you choose the username that you did? You must have absolutely no intentions of becoming a real part of this community. My prediction is when you exhaust the homosexual thread we will never hear from you again. Please prove me wrong. Please!

Looks like you were right. Of course.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I've been here long enough to spot them a mile away, as I'm sure you can as well. I'm just glad he/she didn't bother trolling us for 17+ pages!

Indeed. A refreshingly efficient troll. Makes his point...in and out.

If it wasn't for this thread, I would have never seen the "God hates figs" picture.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

We know most of the people; especially people leaving in non liberal countries are homophobia. Some people can go to the extent of harassing, gay bashing, killing and several kinds of discrimination just only because someone is homosexual. Those things has forced many gays and lesbians to be in the closet for most of their lives.No body cannot deny the fact that homosexuality is found in every country and cities in this world, be it Amesterdam, Las vegas, Vatican, Jerusalem, Mecca, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Ethiopia, China, Bangkok………etc . Some says there are many in USA, Amesterdam and small or not found in Iran or Mecca or Vatican. If they are counting and comparing with the ones out of closet with the closet ones then they are correct. Wikipedia encyclopedia states that every country has at least 1-2% (estimated to be 65-130 million; the Chinese government alone estimates 30 million) or more of who are leaving with this life.

One major factor for many to become homophobia is that of religion, though some religions are ok with it like the Anglican Church. But what does the Christian bible really says about homosexuality? As most of us think, is it unforgivable sin? I am not here to ague that it is not a sin, it might or it might not be but if it is a sin and compared to other common sins like adultery (cheating on your wife), stealing, killing, raping, genocide, fornication (sex with out marriage), prostitution, insulting god/holy spirit is it the worst one? The way some people are homophobia makes it look like the worst?

The story about Sodom and Gomorrah accounts 99% of the time why Christian believers think it’s the worst sin. If you can read all bibles verses referencing to this account there is not a single direct mention of homosexuality being the reason for it being destroyed by god, instead it was because idol worshiping, fornication, adultery and lies, not helping the poor and needy and not welcoming guests. Read the following verses in Old Testament and judge for yourself. The Bible itself gives us clear very easy to understand reason why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed on contrary to our misinterpreted traditional beliefs, it says these:

Deuteronomy 29:23-27 It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger. 24 All the nations will ask: “Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?” 25 And the answer will be: “It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their ancestors, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. 26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. 27 Therefore the LORD’s anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book.In Ezekiel 16:48-50 God compares Jerusalem to Sodom, saying “Sodom never did what you and your daughters have done.” He explains that the sin of Sodom was that “She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.” God then sent an angel to rain hell fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gomorrah.In Jeremiah 23:14, Jeremiah 49:17-18, Jeremiah 50:39-40 and Lamentations 4:6the prophet associates Sodom and Gomorrah with adultery and lies, prophesies the fate of Edom, south of the Dead Sea, prophesies the fate of Babylon and uses Sodom as a comparison.If Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality, why don’t any of the many verses in the Bible that speak of Sodom and Gomorrah says its because of homosexuality directly or indirectly? These are the other verses: Deut. 29:23, 32:32; Wis. 19:14-17; Isa. 3:9, 13:19; Jer. 23:14, 49:18, 50:40; Lam. 4:6;Ezek. 16:46-48; Amos 4:11; Zeph. 2:9; Luke 17:29; Rom. 9:29; 2 Pet. 2:6; Jude 7.And for some of you who still insist the traditional belief of the relation ship between Sodom and homosexuality is correct, in the new testament indeed Jesus Christ did not consider it as a big unforgivable sin .After all Jesus Christ is god, part of trinity and the greatest of all prophets including Abraham and Moses, angels, holy peoples, popes, monks; therefore, what ever he said can indeed make the old testament null and void. Followings are the verses in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah from New testament:

In Matthew 10:1-15, cf. Luke 10:1-12, Jesus declares certain cities more damnable than Sodom and Gomorrah, due to their response to Jesus’ disciples, in the light of greater grace (RSV):“And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor’rah than for that town.”In Matthew 11:20-24 Jesus prophesies the fate of some cities where he did some of his works (RSV):“And you, Caper’na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”Direct reference of Homosexuality in bible (very important)

10The disciples said to Him, If the case of a man with his wife is like this, it is neither profitable nor advisable to marry.

11But He said to them, Not all men can accept this saying, but it is for those to whom [the capacity to receive] it has been given.

12For there are eunuchs who have been born incapable of marriage; and there are eunuchs who have been made so by men; and there are eunuchs who have made themselves incapable of marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let him who is able to accept this accept it.

Now Matthew 19:12 is clearly about homosexuality,. Eunches may refer to slaves, trusted ones, faithful ones and believers and Indeed our lord jesus said that that there are eunches who are born to be incapable of marriages which directly refers to homosexualy. With this verse our Jesus is telling us that homosexuality is by birth and not the lifestyle to choose to be. If it is by birth then it is god who made homosexuals to be homosexuals. If it is by birth then how can we challenge our creator for making a mistake?

In New Testament there was no verse which condemns homosexuality or makes it as unforgivable sin directly or indirectly. The reason why we are Christians is because we believe in Jesus and his sayings written in New Testament. Sometimes old and new testament contradicts each other but when that happens we side with the new testament because that’s what makes us Christians. Some contradictions are as follows:

On old testament: Leviticus 20:10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.Contradicts with this verse:

On New Testament: John 8 “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”…………. he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”……………….. those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left………………………. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”Based on the above verses Jesus declared that every sin that was considered unforgivable in the book of old testament (the law) can indeed be forgivable if we believe in Jesus Christ, that’s why he was considered the savior. If we don’t believe in him and in the New Testament why we dare call ourselves Christians:

John 8: When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of lifeThe only unforgivable sin is insulting the holy spirit which is according to the New Testament book, which is above of any Christian books and the one and only book which can make any other books null and void!

Matthew 12:31: And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.2 Cor. 5:17: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!2 Cor. 5:19: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.2 Cor. 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.Rom. 6:15-18 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.In my argument I don’t want to be mistaken as saying homosexuality is not a sin and that homosexuals should be a priest or be blessed in a Christian church for their marriage. I am a liberal Christian and am totally against that. What I am arguing about is that based on the New Testament every sin is equal but every sinner is not equal, a sinner who is a true Christian believer and believes in Jesus Christ is closer to him than anyone else. Lets not make homosexuality as any different than most of us sine everyday, how many of us would raise our hand if we were asked if we were virgins on the day of our marriage(fornication), if we never slept with prostitute, never cheat on our wives (adultery) or even fantasizing about other than our wives (based on old testament it is as equal as we indeed cheat), never lied etc ….if all these question were asked at the same time I doubt if there is any single hand raised, yet those were the sins done by the people of the Sodom and Gomorrah. Whenever Sodom story comes up why do we always think of the homosexuals? So that we make our sins ok for us to do it?

In Leviticus 20:10 Moses law states that both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death by stoning while in John 8 Jesus has made that law void, he did not condemn the adulteress but acknowledged it as a sin which can be forgivable as long us she believes in Jesus. In John 8 Jesus said that if any one did not sin, he or she shall condemn you, then what happened every one runs away except Jesus, so what this means is that to condemn any one you shall not be a sinner and that the only person on this planet who has not sinned is our lord and savior Jesus Christ. So in my conclusion no body on this planet be it the pope, priest, monk, state government or anyone else by basing their justification on the bible and Christianity has the right to condemn/harass/discriminate/imprison/kill any sinner (adulterer/liar/homosexual………) so long us they didn’t cause any damage to anyone. If any one should be condemned/imprisoned or killed it was supposed to be those ones who have dishonored/insulted the holy spirit/ God !

So I think what we have those nasty wrong perceptions like homosexuality is evil, satanic, unforgivable sin and that they should be condemned by basing our justification on bible is a result of our misinterpretation; by doing so we are not benefiting, infact it is us who are doing the unforgivable sin indirectly by condemning what god did not tell us to condemn or what has god amended his teaching by his son our lord and Savior Jesus Christ and by not respecting gods word, it is us who are dishonoring him not anybody else. God is unchangeable. God’s word is unchangeable too.

In Matthew 24:35, the Lord Jesus said, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”Revelation 22:18-19, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.Proverbs 30:5-6, Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

you said that in your argument you are not saying that homosexuality is not a sin. But then previously you said that people are born that way. Which is it? if people are born that way, why is it a sin?

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

It is not important whether or not homosexuality (i.e homosexual inclinations, desires, profession, and actions) is a sin greater than any other sin. The fact is that it is a sin, and thus should be avoided, just as heterosexual fornication and adultery (including heterosexual lustful inclinations, desires, profession, and actions) are sins that should be avoided. If you know that the Church teaches that it is a sin, and that the Bible teaches that it is a sin, then why spend so much time trying to downplay the significance of this sin? If others judge homosexuals in a self-righteous and hypocritical manner, then God will judge them. But true Christian compassion should compel us to caution ourselves and others against any and all sins. To condemn homosexuality as a sinful perversion does not make someone "homophobic," nor does it mean that we condemn the homosexual individual.

Selam

you are quite right. But some people are indeed homophobic. And other people, don't even know how to distinguish between a sin (human condition), and sinner (Human being). They fail to see the difference between the 2. Most people however, indeed see this difference, and know how to distinguish.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

agreed.

Ummm, I shot no messenger. I simply stated the unequivocal Orthodox position on the matter. If folks don't like it, their problem.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

agreed.

Ummm, I shot no messenger. I simply stated the unequivocal Orthodox position on the matter. If folks don't like it, their problem.

Oh no, I wasn't implying you shot anyone! I was speaking of "the world." When we say some behavior is bad, "the world" says, "Who are you to judge?" as if there's no morality except vapid relativism.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

agreed.

Ummm, I shot no messenger. I simply stated the unequivocal Orthodox position on the matter. If folks don't like it, their problem.

I generally agreed with his statement. But I personally did not refer with this agreement to you.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

agreed.

Ummm, I shot no messenger. I simply stated the unequivocal Orthodox position on the matter. If folks don't like it, their problem.

Oh no, I wasn't implying you shot anyone! I was speaking of "the world." When we say some behavior is bad, "the world" says, "Who are you to judge?" as if there's no morality except vapid relativism

agreed. But then again who are we to judge anyone? Isn't that God's Job. Shouldn't we mind our own business instead, and focus on solving our own issues, since they are the only issues we can solve, with the help of God of course.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

agreed.

Ummm, I shot no messenger. I simply stated the unequivocal Orthodox position on the matter. If folks don't like it, their problem.

Oh no, I wasn't implying you shot anyone! I was speaking of "the world." When we say some behavior is bad, "the world" says, "Who are you to judge?" as if there's no morality except vapid relativism

agreed. But then again who are we to judge anyone? Isn't that God's Job. Shouldn't we mind our own business instead, and focus on solving our own issues, since they are the only issues we can solve, with the help of God of course.

How far does "minding our own business" extend? If someone we love is engaging in self-destructive behavior, do we intervene? I would say yes. Of course, every person, every situation, and every necessary action is unique and dependent on the circumstances.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

agreed.

Ummm, I shot no messenger. I simply stated the unequivocal Orthodox position on the matter. If folks don't like it, their problem.

Oh no, I wasn't implying you shot anyone! I was speaking of "the world." When we say some behavior is bad, "the world" says, "Who are you to judge?" as if there's no morality except vapid relativism

agreed. But then again who are we to judge anyone? Isn't that God's Job. Shouldn't we mind our own business instead, and focus on solving our own issues, since they are the only issues we can solve, with the help of God of course.

How far does "minding our own business" extend? If someone we love is engaging in self-destructive behavior, do we intervene? I would say yes. Of course, every person, every situation, and every necessary action is unique and dependent on the circumstances.

if they are engaged with drugs, we do intervene, if they are engaged with alcohol, we do also. How is homosexuality for instance self-destructive, if they use condoms.?

Simply put, homosexuality is not a sin, says Bakker, 35, pastor of Revolution NYC, a Brooklyn evangelical congregation that meets in a bar.

Bakker, who is straight and divorced, crafts his argument using the same "clobber scriptures" (as he calls them) that are so often wielded to condemn homosexuals.....Bakker's clear voice on homosexuality is not alone in the evangelical community.

Tony Jones, a "theologian-in-residence" at Minnesota's Solomon's Porch, one of the pre-eminent "Emergent'' churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker's arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband's disagreement.

is there any Orthodox who agrees with him? I wonder.

Any sexual activity outside of marriage is regarded as sinful by Orthodox teaching.

And, for added measure, so is bullying, harassment, condemnation, etc. Of course, in our day, just as in the days of yore, we like to shoot the messenger who says we're doing something wrong--whether it's sexual immorality or hating our brother.

agreed.

Ummm, I shot no messenger. I simply stated the unequivocal Orthodox position on the matter. If folks don't like it, their problem.

Oh no, I wasn't implying you shot anyone! I was speaking of "the world." When we say some behavior is bad, "the world" says, "Who are you to judge?" as if there's no morality except vapid relativism

agreed. But then again who are we to judge anyone? Isn't that God's Job. Shouldn't we mind our own business instead, and focus on solving our own issues, since they are the only issues we can solve, with the help of God of course.

How far does "minding our own business" extend? If someone we love is engaging in self-destructive behavior, do we intervene? I would say yes. Of course, every person, every situation, and every necessary action is unique and dependent on the circumstances.

if they are engaged with drugs, we do intervene, if they are engaged with alcohol, we do also. How is homosexuality for instance self-destructive, if they use condoms.?

It's against nature, it wounds the soul, and it's almost always the harbinger of a lot of other bad stuff going on.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.