Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

And yes, you were wrong. Cursive really isn't useful to anyone nowadays.

Cursive isn't useful to anyone?

Originally Posted By: kayvee

And, bar those with disabilities, uneducated in general, etc, people learn to read well invariably if they are exposed to it enough

Invariably? Really? Actually though, your "etc" could cover so many exceptions as to make your "invariably" meaningless - as in, everybody learns to read well, except those who don't.

As a skill? Not really. It's not a necessary form of script and that's the reason why it's being weeded out. Children do better with print than cursive and cursive doesn't encode anything special. Can you think of who it is useful for?

And yes. Invariably (as a whole). Even ppl who typ or rit lik this r lrning 2 rit and red corectly just nt stndrd. And the gap from that to 'standard' is easily covered by a competent teacher and/or program. Hence the widespread literacy rates and expansion of writing. Hence our public signs and newspapers/online media.

By the way, using the term "etc" to cover similar exceptions doesn't make a term like "invariably" meaningless. The assumption is that people would figure out what the other exceptions are - as in, similar those that were listed and/or common knowledge (in this case, anyone who isn't physically or mentally or financially or _____-ly unable to learn to read and write can and will learn to read and write).

ETA: I should clarify that it's analogous to speaking a language. Our brains are quite well-designed for both tasks. If the system works (and really, even if it is incredibly convoluted to others), people can learn it without much difficulty (in the long run). Everyone learns their first language (except for those without the ability to learn language, suffering from physical disabilities preventing them from doing so, etc). With exposure to writing and reading, people will learn to do both.

Edited by kayvee (11/14/1201:29 AM)

_________________________
A linguistics major who loves piano and knows too much theory/history without knowing how to play it as well as he wants to be able to.

Let's hope that changes. Taught piano for almost two years and currently working on:"Going back to the basics..."

currawong
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 6058
Loc: Down Under

Originally Posted By: kayvee

It's not a necessary form of script and that's the reason why it's being weeded out. Children do better with print than cursive and cursive doesn't encode anything special. Can you think of who it is useful for?

I didn't say it was "necessary". ("Weeded out" makes it seem like some noxious growth!) It's a useful form of writing, and there are still situations where handwriting is required. It's still taught in schools here as far as I'm aware. I suppose I'd find your posts more reasonable if you qualified your statements a little - eg "many children do better with print".

It's not a necessary form of script and that's the reason why it's being weeded out. Children do better with print than cursive and cursive doesn't encode anything special. Can you think of who it is useful for?

I didn't say it was "necessary". ("Weeded out" makes it seem like some noxious growth!) It's a useful form of writing, and there are still situations where handwriting is required. It's still taught in schools here as far as I'm aware. I suppose I'd find your posts more reasonable if you qualified your statements a little - eg "many children do better with print".

Sorry, you're right; I should qualify it that way, since studies are usually based on the large majority rather than the exceptions. I try to as much as possible, as noted with all the parenthetical statements and such, but I do imply it more than I say it.

However, I'm still not sure why 'handwriting' and 'cursive' are being used as synonyms. Handwriting is still taught - just in print script. Children learn A, a, then B, b, so on. But cursive isn't taught as much (at least, in the US).

PS: I should add that I write a highly-cursive form of English script But it isn't standard by far. Most ( ) people will write in a variable form of print script with cursive influence, which is more standard. Even people I know who also write in a very cursive form will often adapt the 'real' system to something more suitable (A, G, Q, S, Z, q, r, s, x, and z often being the most changed), which studies on the analysis of written corpus seem to suggest as well. The point should be ease of writing over the art of it, because our culture(s) don't really demand an artistic form of the script. That doesn't mean it has to be messy or anything, but it doesn't carry a valuation of beauty as a couple of other world scripts do.

_________________________
A linguistics major who loves piano and knows too much theory/history without knowing how to play it as well as he wants to be able to.

Let's hope that changes. Taught piano for almost two years and currently working on:"Going back to the basics..."

And yes, you were wrong. Cursive really isn't useful to anyone nowadays.

I would be a little careful about generalizations like this one. While, of necessity, I type on this Forum; and likewise type all business letters; my preferred method of correspondance is handwriting - and certainly not P R I N T I N G. My handwriting is so perfected, I should merit a sticker for it.

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Handwriting is still taught in Australian schools. The students learn "cursive print" for the first few years and then learn to "join their letters" in Grade 3? Grade 4? Something like that... I tell my students I don't mind if they're "messy" in music lessons as long as both they and I can tell what they wrote without ambiguity (e.g. I need to be able to tell that the note they wrote is a B, not a C).

currawong
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 6058
Loc: Down Under

Originally Posted By: kayvee

The point should be ease of writing over the art of it, because our culture(s) don't really demand an artistic form of the script. That doesn't mean it has to be messy or anything, but it doesn't carry a valuation of beauty as a couple of other world scripts do.

Those are actually really bad analogies. Tricycles make eventually riding bicycles easier by design. Cursive doesn't necessarily make print easier.

Originally Posted By: currawong

I wasn't meaning to use them as synonyms, but pointing out that as handwriting is still used, cursive is an efficient form of it, especially where speed is important.

It certainly used to, and in living memory (mine ), too.

There are equally efficient systems in use today, always evolving and always becoming more simple to use. It's the same with our language - we simplify because it works. It also has a lot to do with style. (Un)fortunately, cursive isn't seen as 'cool' anymore. Personally, I'm of mind that we should switch back to the Gothic Blackletter script - but no one tends to agree with me on that. Culturally, as a whole, the Latin script was for use (compared to the stroke importance of Chinese, flow markings of Arabic, and the ideographs of Egyptian).

To the OP, sorry for hi-jacking this thread. In the end, my point was: handwriting can really inhibit students if age and gender are to be considered, so that is always something to consider! (where workbooks and the question about whether handwriting was what was holding the student back were brought up)

_________________________
A linguistics major who loves piano and knows too much theory/history without knowing how to play it as well as he wants to be able to.

Let's hope that changes. Taught piano for almost two years and currently working on:"Going back to the basics..."

I personally don't need cursive writing because I type just about everything. The only time I have to write stuff by hand is when I evaluate students for CM or judge piano competitions. And even then I print my comments. Neatly.

“Lets try something new: How about if I play a few notes on the piano, and you CAPTURE them, so we can look at them together, and find out what I did?”

“This is one way that composers work -- they play a little, and then write it down. Then they play a little more. . .”

“How are we going to remember what we played today unless we put it on paper? I know I won’t remember . . .”

“For the left hand, now we need the Grand Staff. Here is how we bracket. Do you know another name for the bass clef?”

That's the kind of thing that I was looking for. Of course the very first step is for the student to know which note is G corresponding to the G on the piano if you're doing it that way. So I imagine that you would introduce those notes along the same lines in the beginning.

I sincerely hope they are bad - I was striving for ridiculous. Of course we make lots of special allowances for children. And then children develop, and grow up, and graduate to adult-style things - hopefully even methods of communication.

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

I sincerely hope they are bad - I was striving for ridiculous. Of course we make lots of special allowances for children. And then children develop, and grow up, and graduate to adult-style things - hopefully even methods of communication.

And cursive is an 'adult-style' method of communication that is somehow better than print? Must be why it's still used by a majority of adults today that is clearly a script with inherent value over print.

Oh... wait...

It isn't about making allowances for children. It's a utility. Why would you want something that isn't as easy to use? I wouldn't.

_________________________
A linguistics major who loves piano and knows too much theory/history without knowing how to play it as well as he wants to be able to.

Let's hope that changes. Taught piano for almost two years and currently working on:"Going back to the basics..."

KeyString has been waiting patiently to get back on topic, Landorrano is already there, and I want to join them. But before leaving this sub-discussion, and since you actually seem serious about weeding out remaining pockets of cursive writing, allow me to respond in a rare moment of seriousness.

For many of us, writing, handwriting, cursive handwriting is far more than a simple utility. At its least, it is a method of communication; at its best, a palate for high individual expression; and most of the time, an enjoyable activity. For me it is frequently a means to solidifying ideas. In many cases, one’s handwriting is a window into their personality.

You are obviously a learning and thinking individual. It is my sincere hope that you will give some further thought to the benefits of the PROCESS of learning cursive writing, and to the ACT of drawing one’s thoughts on paper.

We already have way, way too many young adults who have to pause momentarily, and then move their lips while signing their names. Please do not add to their numbers.

Now . . . . . where’s my quill?

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

“Lets try something new: How about if I play a few notes on the piano, and you CAPTURE them, so we can look at them together, and find out what I did?”

That's the kind of thing that I was looking for.

Originally Posted By: landorrano

Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart

he whinged about it and threw a mild tantrum.

When dealing with youngsters one has to have enough weight that when you sit on 'em they can't get away. And if you don't have enough weight you have to gain it ... prestissimo!

By not actively teaching, I can afford the luxury of being a fence-sitter between these two approaches.

The one that I sort of improvised above comes at theory with a rather oblique approach. KeyString and I like this because it directly relates the rudiments to the sound. It also attempts to hook the student before he realizes he is munching on bait.

I enjoy very much Landorrano’s solution because of its honesty and directness. No getting around it – if one is to really learn theory, there is study and serious effort involved. Eventually, the sugar-coating has to disappear.

In the end, our best thinking, and finest suggestions will have very little to do with the success, or failure, of Nannerl Mozart’s student learning much music theory. If he is destined to become a good musician, he will learn it. If not, then no.

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

For many of us, writing, handwriting, cursive handwriting is far more than a simple utility. At its least, it is a method of communication; at its best, a palate for high individual expression; and most of the time, an enjoyable activity. For me it is frequently a means to solidifying ideas. In many cases, one’s handwriting is a window into their personality.

Now . . . . . where’s my quill?

Hi LoPresti,

I enjoyed your post.

This reminds me of some notes I took from a lecture (online) by pianist James Boyk: "Your hand is the communication link between your conscious and your unconscious...some things come out through the hands on the keyboard...The unconscious communicates with the hands somehow."

He was speaking of piano playing, but I think there is the same link for writing and I therefore highly value keeping a daily journal. I, too, think there is something special about writing, and not just typing (although it also has merit).

One nutty thing I've heard of is a teacher telling a child NOT to write in cursive because "We don't learn cursive until 3rd grade". Pitiful! I'm all for the speed and revelations of cursive writing. But if someone really has a disability and significant efforts have only resulted in frustration, then I can see a keyboard as a helpful tool in place of writing.

One nutty thing I've heard of is a teacher telling a child NOT to write in cursive because "We don't learn cursive until 3rd grade".

I wonder if you were remembering my story, where I was forbidden to teach cursive because it was not in the curriculum guidelines until grade 3, back when I was a teacher. Some of my students had come up to me and asked to learn it. I "showed" them how to do cursive writing as a fun activity, step by step, and that's how we got around "don't teach it".

One boy had a strong learning disability and had already repeated both grades one and two. The special ed consultant told me that he NEEDED cursive writing. The act of linking each word through connective strokes allowed him to see the letters of a word as belonging to a unit, while print didn't give that distinction. He was already coming up with a device of his own through dots and strokes which was almost identical to a teaching system for French immersion called Le Sablier. And here the answer was under our noses the whole time: cursive writing.

This reminds me of some notes I took from a lecture (online) by pianist James Boyk: "Your hand is the communication link between your conscious and your unconscious...some things come out through the hands on the keyboard...The unconscious communicates with the hands somehow."

Hi Ann,

Any good jazz player, regardless of instrument, can attest to this subconscious-direct-to-the-hands (or to-the-embrochure) connection. I am really glad you posted this quote. I, too, keep a real journal. How else can I remember anything?

Ed

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

This reminds me of some notes I took from a lecture (online) by pianist James Boyk: "Your hand is the communication link between your conscious and your unconscious...some things come out through the hands on the keyboard...The unconscious communicates with the hands somehow."

Hi Ann,

Any good jazz player, regardless of instrument, can attest to this subconscious-direct-to-the-hands (or to-the-embrochure) connection. I am really glad you posted this quote. I, too, keep a real journal. How else can I remember anything?

Ed

Yes, notes help to refresh memory.

That reminds me of an email I received 6 years ago from a community college saying they reviewed my application and asked me to come in for an interview. I figured it must be spam because I had no recollection of this community college even existing, much less filling out a job application. Then I looked back through my journals and discovered I had been annoyed with my job situation and responded late at night by filling out an online application a few months earlier.

One nutty thing I've heard of is a teacher telling a child NOT to write in cursive because "We don't learn cursive until 3rd grade".

I wonder if you were remembering my story, where I was forbidden to teach cursive because it was not in the curriculum guidelines until grade 3, back when I was a teacher. Some of my students had come up to me and asked to learn it. I "showed" them how to do cursive writing as a fun activity, step by step, and that's how we got around "don't teach it".

One boy had a strong learning disability and had already repeated both grades one and two. The special ed consultant told me that he NEEDED cursive writing. The act of linking each word through connective strokes allowed him to see the letters of a word as belonging to a unit, while print didn't give that distinction. He was already coming up with a device of his own through dots and strokes which was almost identical to a teaching system for French immersion called Le Sablier. And here the answer was under our noses the whole time: cursive writing.

keystring, I would have given you credit for it had I remembered where I heard it. Yes, it must have been from you.

I enjoy very much Landorrano’s solution because of its honesty and directness. No getting around it – if one is to really learn theory, there is study and serious effort involved. Eventually, the sugar-coating has to disappear.

Thanks for the plug but I am not certain that you mean the same as me. I don't think that the difficulty before Nannerl is how to get some "theory" across. It seems to me that her problem is how to handle a whingy and tantrum-throwing 12 year-old.

By the way, in the southern hemisphere do you really spell whiny with a "g" whingy? Or is that an error and you meant to write "whiny"? Or maybe "wingy"?

currawong
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 6058
Loc: Down Under

Originally Posted By: landorrano

By the way, in the southern hemisphere do you really spell whiny with a "g" whingy? Or is that an error and you meant to write "whiny"? Or maybe "wingy"?

Verb: to whinge (pronounced winj) = to complain persistently and annoyingly, usually in a voice which has something of a whine about it. (my definition) I think I might have spelled whingy as whingey, myself.

I enjoy very much Landorrano’s solution because of its honesty and directness.

Thanks for the plug but I am not certain that you mean the same as me. I don't think that the difficulty before Nannerl is how to get some "theory" across. It seems to me that her problem is how to handle a whingy and tantrum-throwing 12 year-old.

Oh, but I do mean the same as you - exactly the same.

By the way, did the student in question really age 2 years while this thread was developing? (My, how tempus fugit!) Perhaps he has out-grown those tantrums by now?

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

It does not foster the internalization and ownership and detailed memory of these symbols.

This is the start of something important. But it does not mean that filling out workbooks will foster this. Theory is often a segregated activity, a fragmentation. I think that there is something bigger here, and writing out notes by hand is only the tip of the iceberg. Plus it won't be good for everyone: people are wired differently, and getting at that wiring is part of teaching.

In my opinion writing out notes by hand is good for everyone. Everyone.

Kids should be drawing the G-clef by hand as early as possible, as well as the F-clef ... and this beautifully. I consider it extremely important. This is elementary activity, or fundamental, in the sense that it is the laying of a foundation for building upon. Through the act of writing with the hand the student takes possesion of the elements of musical culture, exactly as says LoPresti, and there is no other way to achieve that so fully and there will never be another way. The hand is basic to human existence, on an individual level the education of the hand is a motor of development of intelligence.

Computers are great, long live 'em. But there are important things that a kid needs to know that he cannot learn on a computer. A kid needs to learn to write, and to write well and with a nice hand, it is a necessary element in the formation of his mind and his character. A kid who doesn't is missing something important in his education. In my opinion it is a handicap and he will be marked by that throughout his life. He may not be aware of this handicap but then people often aren't, ignorance is bliss!

Learning to play a musical instrument is another important knowledge that cannot be gained on a computer.

I am not of the opinion that "theory" should necessarily be closely related to the students current activity at the piano or even to the piano. I think that a kid who studies, for example, the flute, should learn early on to read and write in the f-clef even though it is certain that he will not have the occasion any time soon to use that knowledge, maybe even never in his life. All kids (and adults too) should learn the alto clef, the soprano clef, and so on.

The one that I sort of improvised above comes at theory with a rather oblique approach. KeyString and I like this because it directly relates the rudiments to the sound. It also attempts to hook the student before he realizes he is munching on bait.

What I liked is that you began with music and moved out to theory. I don't necessarily see it as oblique or even hooking the student with bait. I considered this the first time after I had studied my first level of theory, because I was bothered that it was all on paper and something seemed to be missing. When I joined PianoWorld there were several teachers who seemed to find it important to stress that theory first get taught hands on. There were some various approaches of tying very early theory discover with things on paper and some of these approaches were creative. What struck me is how important they found the concrete stage to be. It was not bait, but the substance of the teaching. It seemed an interesting thing to explore.