1. Gear can be changed mid-fight and 2. Gear is intentionally released that is only good for WSing, Casting, TPing, etc.

So why don't you tell me what other successful MMOs incorporate those two asinine elements.

This is thus no different an issue than Lamps being a giant bowl of bile. That's why I listed those things: They are all bad to intentionally bad game design that the players have developed workarounds for. If you want to decry any of those things, you have to decry all of those things. This makes you a cheater for just using FFXIclopedia, because you're using an external source to bypass the intent that you have to pretty much randomly click on everyone and every random ??? point in the whole world to progress in some quests.

They're all cheats. There is no 'tiering' here. Every method I gave is a workaround to sh*tty game design, and I guarantee you use two out of four of them at least. You don't get to be on the fence here: Either they're all cheats or they're all workarounds.

If you want a more fair parallel, it'd be like if you could only get to the 'upper' part of Yuhtunga Jungle through Ifrit's Cauldron when Rainy weather occurs on Firesday, which let's say is about once a RL month. Some players will park a Tractor mule on the upper ledge to get people up there, others will position hack up the ledge. Let's say a new HNM was up there that spawned once a week (more often than you could actually, legitimately, get up there).

Which of these is cheating? BOTH! Both methods are a workaround to poor design. One is a method that involves giving SE money to get around it (paying for the mule, likely a whole account lest the owner not be able to Tractor himself) while the other is a violation of the TOS.

But which one would people use? I'd say they'd rather get banned and not give SE money than give them extra money.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 9:27pm by Raelix

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

1. Gear can be changed mid-fight and 2. Gear is intentionally released that is only good for WSing, Casting, TPing, etc.

So why don't you tell me what other successful MMOs incorporate those two asinine elements.

This is thus no different an issue than Lamps being a giant bowl of bile. That's why I listed those things: They are all bad to intentionally bad game design that the players have developed workarounds for. If you want to decry any of those things, you have to decry all of those things. This makes you a cheater for just using FFXIclopedia, because you're using an external source to bypass the intent that you have to pretty much randomly click on everyone and every random ??? point in the whole world to progress in some quests.

They're all cheats. There is no 'tiering' here. Every method I gave is a workaround to sh*tty game design, and I guarantee you use two out of four of them at least. You don't get to be on the fence here: Either they're all cheats or they're all workarounds.

If you want a more fair parallel, it'd be like if you could only get to the 'upper' part of Yuhtunga Jungle through Ifrit's Cauldron when Rainy weather occurs on Firesday, which let's say is about once a RL month. Some players will park a Tractor mule on the upper ledge to get people up there, others will position hack up the ledge. Let's say a new HNM was up there that spawned once a week (more often than you could actually, legitimately, get up there).

Which of these is cheating? BOTH! Both methods are a workaround to poor design. One is a method that involves giving SE money to get around it (paying for the mule, likely a whole account lest the owner not be able to Tractor himself) while the other is a violation of the TOS.

But which one would people use? I'd say they'd rather get banned and not give SE money than give them extra money.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 9:27pm by Raelix

Yay for not reading my post so this is my only response to your post. It sounds stupid becuase what you said is stupid.

And just so you know you would loose that bet. I play on 360 and only use the official windower on my pc.(Which I rarely use, I prefer playing on 360) So if you really want to list A resource specifically listed by square on their website as cheat I only use 1.

____________________________

If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?

What is the @#%^ing point of cheating in a game like this? The only person you're cheating is yourself.

The official rules are a bulltsh*t, frustrating challenge. Making up your own rules to make the event feasible and fun isn't cheating yourself - it's highly rewarding.

You sound like the type of person that supports authority on principle, no matter how sh*tty it is.

What's authority got to do with cheating yourself out of playing a game you're paying for? You sound like the sort of person who says stupid things for effect without thinking them through.

Don't attempt to try and make cheating out to be something noble or excusable - it's not. It's cheating. If you want to cheat then go ahead. No one cares. Just don't show off your gear like you earned it - you didn't.

If the event is too hard for you then go and complain on the official board or on here and like everything else in the game it will eventually get dumbed down until it's no challenge. Or if that doesn't work then don't do the event at all - if no one does it, SE will have to 'fix' it.

Downrange wrote:

I'm surprised to see community regulars come here and admit to cheating. And the excuses are not clever or noble, they are the same tired rationalizations used by cheaters since forever. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and one thoughtless act to destroy it.

1. Gear can be changed mid-fight and 2. Gear is intentionally released that is only good for WSing, Casting, TPing, etc.

I realize this is an entirely different subject, but I'd like to point something out.

While I'd agree with you that from a logical, believability standpoint, gears-swapping is poor design, if it weren't for gear-swapping FFXI would have died a long time ago.

In other MMOs you level up a character, get it to cap, do some endgame, and before long you can have a gearset that is comprised of "best in slot" pieces. Sure, there may be a few situational pieces you can go looking for, but for the most part, when you've acquired your "best in slot" pieces, your character is done. This is why every time a game like WoW raises the level cap, there's a huge influx of new and returning players, and then not long thereafter a large quantity of quitters.

In FFXI, the ability to make gearsets for the minutest ability, spell, or situation is what keeps the game afloat. Once every melee has his "ultimate" TP gear, there's still his "ultimate" weapon skill gear, his "ultimate" Fast Cast set for Utsusemi, his "ultimate" evasion setup, etc. And whenever a new piece of gear or an ability is added or changed, those gearsets need to be tweaked.

I guess what I'm saying is, the poor design of mid-fight gear swapping turned out to be serendipity for FFXI.

1. Gear can be changed mid-fight and 2. Gear is intentionally released that is only good for WSing, Casting, TPing, etc.

Eh, that's a matter of opinion... I've played plenty of games where mid-battle equipment switching is allowed and even encouraged. One such example is the Dragon Quest series. It doesn't even cost you a turn in battle to switch weapons.

Even if we look at games with non-turn-based combat, my main squeeze before this game was Diablo 2, and in that game gear could also be switched on the fly, and it even had a feature where two different weapon configurations could be swapped at the press of a button.

#111Raelix,
Posted:Jun 27 2012 at 12:32 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah, D2 came to my mind as well, but I know for a fact you can't switch weapons while attacking or using an ability, so you can not switch to Whirlwind swords to use Whirlwind then switch back to Frenzy equipment at the exact moment you start beating on something else. There's a solid 2-3 second lockout.

You know what Windower does? Solves the bullsh*t of not being able to alt-tab in a Windows environment.

You know what Spellcast does? Solves the bullsh*t of people wanting 100% optimization but only having six lines per macro.

Here's the best one: You know what Wikis do? Solve the bullsh*t of nothing in this game being guided in the least and quests being sometimes totally random.

You're trying too hard here and getting way too upset about this. If you feel perfectly justified then there's little reason to get angry. Wiki is the sharing of information between players, which is what SE wanted us to do when they designed the game to be so purposely uninformative. They may not have expected us to do it in the form of a website but they did expect us to communicate with and share experiences with each other. To compare the sharing of info with altering game files or using flee or clipping hacks is just ridiculous.

Quote:

These are all methods of 'cheating' that I at least feel are perfectly justified because they solve SE-endorsed bullsh*t. Lamp .dats are pushing it a little, but in the same vein: SE is quite honestly too incompetent or arrogant to see the problem that induces the cheating.

We've tried calling SE in all these cases, and it just doesn't get anything done, so we deal with it ourselves.

So if you're gonna come around and start decrying, criminalizing, and witchhunting for Lamp .dats you'd best get on your high-horse campaign against Windower, Spellcast, and even Wiki use too, because everyone else using these things feel they are for good reason despite being 'cheating'.

So every time I find what I feel is a flaw with the game, I should just cheat my way around it in any way I see fit? I feel I have a good reason, so it's cool with you guys right? Fishing is annoying so I'll just bot it. Buying chocobo blinkers is too slow for me so I'll bot that too. Claiming Gukumatz is annoying so I'll claim bot it. Movement speed is too slow and chocobos can't go in caves so I'll just flee everywhere. I shouldn't have to do a quest to get past a door so I'll just walk through it. I need a preposterous amount of gil and even now the game doesn't spit it out fast enough, but my bank account is feeling fat right now so why not RMT?

Even if we look at games with non-turn-based combat, my main squeeze before this game was Diablo 2, and in that game gear could also be switched on the fly, and it even had a feature where two different weapon configurations could be swapped at the press of a button.

Still Diablo 2 didn't force you switch from your idle gear to your precast gear to your midcast gear back to your idle gear to drastically increase efficiency. The fact that SE also limits the gear swaps slots to 6 is evil especially since one of the slot can be taken up by a spell or ability.

I am none of these things. I just recognize a definite problem with Nyzul lamps. Your patronizing expose isn't necessary.

Camiie wrote:

So every time I find what I feel is a flaw with the game, I should just cheat my way around it in any way I see fit? I feel I have a good reason, so it's cool with you guys right? Fishing is annoying so I'll just bot it. Buying chocobo blinkers is too slow for me so I'll bot that too. Claiming Gukumatz is annoying so I'll claim bot it. Movement speed is too slow and chocobos can't go in caves so I'll just flee everywhere. I shouldn't have to do a quest to get past a door so I'll just walk through it. I need a preposterous amount of gil and even now the game doesn't spit it out fast enough, but my bank account is feeling fat right now so why not RMT?

You could not be missing the point harder.

Fishing system? Not bullsh*t. They fixed it. You tend to catch things whether you fish manually or by botting. You actually have to do things, but it also gives you something to do instead of casting ten times for one fish.

Buying chocobo blinkers? Not bullsh*t. It's not like you have a 5 minute window per day to buy as many as possible that a bot would get you any more in the end.

Claiming mobs? Not bullsh*t. The game doesn't randomly give your mob to someone else if you didn't claim with a bot.

Movement speed? Not bullsh*t. Travel time is a legitimate worldfeel thing. Gee, there's actually things that increase movement speed though, so you don't even have to cheat to get it.

Door that requires a quest? Not bullsh*t. If every 3rd time you used the door you had to redo the quest, but another quest required you to enter the door four times, that would be just silly and still borderline. Guess what: They just added ways around needing other people to get around Garliage and Eldieme doors.

Gil? Definitely not bullsh*t. See, now you're talking about violating something SE has finally done right and does keep a pretty good finger on. XI's economy is quite stable and fairly RMT free anymore.

The examples I gave are widely accepted because because they solve bullsh*t. That's the best descriptor I have for it, and SE definitely has a very special brand of it that calls for certain measures like the ones given. It's a categorization where player workarounds are or should be widely accepted (unlike your examples, which are plain cheats), and Nyzul Lamps definitely fall in there.

But if you'd read the whole ******* post and use your brain instead of rubbing your snobbish attitude everywhere, I was justifying just lamp .dats, not flee/clip tools. I'd throw a wild guess that half of Neo Nyzul run losses (coming up short anyway, so even if you manage a floor 80 boss) are because of lamps, and the other half are bad jumps (gee, another stupid luck mechanic). They are a sh*t mechanic and far too dynamic a 'puzzle' for such a hard-timed event.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 6:33am by Raelix

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

You call it a problem with the Nyzul lamps, but you act as though you are somehow entitled to victory in Nyzul and that these lamps are hindering your just reward for paying a monthly fee for this game. Is your self esteem really that damaged that you need to get ahead in this game at all costs? Has your sense of entitlement overcome your sense of honor?

Yes, it's easy to justify; anything is. And let's not beat around the bush here, you know **** well that using the wiki or using a tractor mule aren't cheating. There may be gray area, but the things you listed are nowhere near it.

I know you're smarter than this, Raelix, but people say stupid things when defending their stupid decisions. I'll readily admit I've made stupid decisions, too. I used to swap Darter .dats for Fafnir camping, for example. I could justify it all sorts of ways, but suffice to say I have never swapped Nyzul lamps and never will (and yes, I do Neo-Nyzul frequently, so it's not that the temptation isn't there).

I dat swapped away the confluxes in abyssea. I did so because I dual box, and the confluxes cause irrational graphics card lag on my machine. Is that cheating? It is technically against the ToS. I'm also looking to dat swap the planar rifts for Voidwatch for the same reason. I also dat swapped several of the sound tracks. All against the terms of service.

I seem to recall someone trying to argue dual boxing was cheating as well.

I think at the end of the day it's whatever you can live with yourself and still do. Myself personally, I don't want to do anything to lose my char, I've put too much time into him to chance getting him banned. Some people may not see it that way but I'm attached to my little Taru.

I dat swapped away the confluxes in abyssea. I did so because I dual box, and the confluxes cause irrational graphics card lag on my machine. Is that cheating? It is technically against the ToS. I'm also looking to dat swap the planar rifts for Voidwatch for the same reason. I also dat swapped several of the sound tracks. All against the terms of service.

If that isn't cheating, neither is dat swapping nyzul.

One gives you a clear advantage over players who don't do the same, whereas the other gives no advantage. That's the key difference.

I guess you might say that both are technically cheating, but only one is an exploit?

I dat swapped away the confluxes in abyssea. I did so because I dual box, and the confluxes cause irrational graphics card lag on my machine. Is that cheating? It is technically against the ToS. I'm also looking to dat swap the planar rifts for Voidwatch for the same reason. I also dat swapped several of the sound tracks. All against the terms of service.

If that isn't cheating, neither is dat swapping nyzul.

So there's no moral difference between removing a glowing flux crashing your game, and changing nyzul lamps to read 1,2,3,4,5, and activate in that order?

So there's no moral difference between removing a glowing flux crashing your game, and changing nyzul lamps to read 1,2,3,4,5, and activate in that order?

You've taken the same action: swapping dat files. It's against the terms of service in either case. Its also undetectable by SE in either case. You can't have it both ways, either dat swapping is cheating or its not.

So there's no moral difference between removing a glowing flux crashing your game, and changing nyzul lamps to read 1,2,3,4,5, and activate in that order?

You've taken the same action: swapping dat files. It's against the terms of service in either case. Its also undetectable by SE in either case. You can't have it both ways, either dat swapping is cheating or its not.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 11:13am by AshOnMyTomatoes

You fire a gun for target practice outside a shooting range. You shoot at a target in your back yard against a tree with a forest behind it. It's a crime but mainly no one cares, somebody might call in a noise complaint. You use the neighbors dog as target practice. Suddenly everyone starts caring.

There in lies the difference.

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If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?

Where in the TOS is there a non-diclosure agreement? Because a wiki is just sharing information.

Cheating and breaking the ToS are not equivalent. There are areas where they overlap. There are ways you can violate the ToS without cheating (e.g. verbally harassing other players). And because "cheating" is an idea with some wiggle room, you can cheat without violating the ToS, depending on what your own personal view of cheating is.

____________________________

Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi) 1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!

So there's no moral difference between removing a glowing flux crashing your game, and changing nyzul lamps to read 1,2,3,4,5, and activate in that order?

You've taken the same action: swapping dat files. It's against the terms of service in either case. Its also undetectable by SE in either case. You can't have it both ways, either dat swapping is cheating or its not.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 11:13am by AshOnMyTomatoes

Well I'm not talking about breaking the ToS. Going by the letter of the law anyone who's checked a price on ffxiah is a "cheater."

I'm talking about, morally, you as a player changing the structure of an event to gain an advantage to complete the event vs changing a glowing object because your graphics card doesn't like it.

It's not entitlement to expect events to make some sense. At least in something like Salvage, you could reasonably expect to kill bosses you set out to kill, and it was still flawed. Wanting to beat Neo Nyzul, that's wanting your work to matter. How someone goes about that, cheating or .dat swapping or whatever you do, well that's the argument. But entitled? No, not at all.

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"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

It's not entitlement to expect events to make some sense. At least in something like Salvage, you could reasonably expect to kill bosses you set out to kill, and it was still flawed. Wanting to beat Neo Nyzul, that's wanting your work to matter. How someone goes about that, cheating or .dat swapping or whatever you do, well that's the argument. But entitled? No, not at all.

I think you misunderstand that post. The Pergatory wasn't saying that everyone who doing this is acting entitled. He was saying the way realix was talking about his methods makes him sound entitled.

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If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?

only use the official windower on my pc.(Which I rarely use, I prefer playing on 360)

Then you're just a naive idiot whining. I get it.

You still use the Wiki, cheater.

Sorry dude, there is a huge difference between reading wiki and using a program to automate your actions. I personally don't think it is any of my business what people do with their game/game time, but it's just asinine to compare dat switching and flee hacking and even spellcast at to reading wiki. First of all, those windower things are against the TOS - agree or disagree - reading info online isn't. Saying something which is clearly in the bounds of the rules is cheating doesn't strengthen your argument.

I personally don't care about most of this, though, as a stinking casual I am always concerned that BALANCE might shift too heavily in favour of only allowing people (through group gating) to access content who have gear which is almost impossible to get without using these methods. As a stinking casual, it's a pretty moot point since I wasn't going to do neo Nyzul for a long time if ever anyway - but if the use of unauthorized methods to get this gear makes it more common, then the balance of what is "expected" and what decent gear looks like for group content might shift even further from where I am... And that does concern me.

I also worry that we might get more of crap content like this.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 10:17am by Olorinus

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lolgaxe wrote:

When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

I think you misunderstand that post. The Pergatory wasn't saying that everyone who doing this is acting entitled. He was saying the way realix was talking about his methods makes him sound entitled.

I think that Raelix may be acting very exaggerated to prove a point, but there's nothing entitled (acting, or sounding, or being) about Neo Nyzul because it's a senseless event. I think that word gets bandied about more than it should. I think that while I generally like and agree with Pergatory, I think Perg's wrong here. And that doesn't mean I side with outright cheating, including things botting or flee-hacking or clipping, but ****, I already border on cheating because I like what Windower and Spellcast do to a game full of (as Raelix eloquently put it) ********* I think I agree with Raelix that those lamps are ********* And I think that means he's not acting entitled. Obviously, we are not directly entitled to just have the gear, which is unfortunate since it some of the only clear upgrades in the game for anyone but stuck in that event. I hope that clears up potential misunderstanding.

____________________________

"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

only use the official windower on my pc.(Which I rarely use, I prefer playing on 360)

Then you're just a naive idiot whining. I get it.

You still use the Wiki, cheater.

Sorry dude, there is a huge difference between reading wiki and using a program to automate your actions. I personally don't think it is any of my business what people do with their game/game time, but it's just asinine to compare dat switching and flee hacking and even spellcast at to reading wiki. First of all, those windower things are against the TOS - agree or disagree - reading info online isn't. Saying something which is clearly in the bounds of the rules is cheating doesn't strengthen your argument.

Technically, running an internet browser at the same time as FFXI is against the TOS. But so is running Windows Media Player.

Personally, I don't care who cheats and who doesn't as long as:

1) they're not jerks about it. I don't care if you fleehack your WHM Maat fight to survive for 3 minutes, or even because running through Beaucedine is a PITA, but don't do it to outclaim someone on an NM (Nyzul is more of a borderline case, but I'd still personally put it on the side of "don't care"...because I personally don't care about NeoNyzul). Don't exclude or ridicule people for refusing to use the same tools you do. I do reserve the right to ridicule people who ask for my help on a quest but have not wiki'd it, though.

2) they don't whine when they get banned for it. If I ever get banned for Windower, I'll just say "well, if I'd never used Windower I would have quit long ago, so I'll still count it as a win.".

Some people have moral standards that others don't. As can be seen here, some people take issue to the notion of using .dat mods for a tactical advantage, whereas others find that the ends justify the means since the event itself is so excessively difficult. Everyone's going to have a differing opinion as to whether or not it's okay, so morality is going to be an issue even for something like this.

I seem to recall someone trying to argue dual boxing was cheating as well.

Technically only the person who's name is on the account is allowed to play. The explicitly say this applies even to family members. So if your wife has an account and you dual box her whm when she's at work, you are violating the ToS to gain an advantage, which is "cheating" by some definition...it's a dumb rule that they made overbroad when going after account selling, but it's still a rule! But as long as you are using two different machines (not using third party tools to enable dual boxing on a single device) and your name is on both accounts, it's not against the rules.

Aliekber wrote:

Technically, running an internet browser at the same time as FFXI is against the TOS. But so is running Windows Media Player.

Long ago the OLD User Agreement ambiguously defined cheating tools as "use any third-party software in conjunction with FINAL FANTASY XI" which if you interpret "conjunction" as "at the same time" would mean you couldn't even technically be running Windows at the same time, and would of course include a browser or a media player. But several changes have made it more clear. The current (been this way since at least a year ago) "cheating" clause is

FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement wrote:

You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay.

They replaced "in conjunction with the Game" with "which modifies the Game and gameplay" The "and" is SUPER important. Obviously browsers don't modify the game...perhaps they modify gameplay by letting you consult game forums and wikis, but they certainly don't modify both Game AND gameplay.

I think you misunderstand that post. The Pergatory wasn't saying that everyone who doing this is acting entitled. He was saying the way realix was talking about his methods makes him sound entitled.

I think that Raelix may be acting very exaggerated to prove a point, but there's nothing entitled (acting, or sounding, or being) about Neo Nyzul because it's a senseless event. I think that word gets bandied about more than it should. I think that while I generally like and agree with Pergatory, I think Perg's wrong here. And that doesn't mean I side with outright cheating, including things botting or flee-hacking or clipping, but ****, I already border on cheating because I like what Windower and Spellcast do to a game full of (as Raelix eloquently put it) bullsh*t. I think I agree with Raelix that those lamps are bullsh*t. And I think that means he's not acting entitled. Obviously, we are not directly entitled to just have the gear, which is unfortunate since it some of the only clear upgrades in the game for anyone but stuck in that event. I hope that clears up potential misunderstanding.

So exactly as you say the event is "senseless." Thusly what reason would you do it? The only reason everyone is doing this, for the gear. If it was truly to "make the event fun" you could go and have the same exact fun somewhere else without the use of these tools. So at the end of the day he talks about how these lamps are basically beneath him. He shouldn't have to do it so he won't do it. He artificially removed that aspect of nyzul from the game. Using the exact reasoning I listed here, which is why he sounds entitled.

Anyways at the end of the day you and I both know the lamps aren't the problem with nyzul becuase then Le olde nyzul would of been to tough to beat without extreme measures(Powder boots etc) too. It's the floor jumping.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 2:03pm by Laxedrane

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If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?

I am none of these things. I just recognize a definite problem with Nyzul lamps. Your patronizing expose isn't necessary.

Class act, aren't you? Sorry, I'm not going to take the bait.

Camiie wrote:

So every time I find what I feel is a flaw with the game, I should just cheat my way around it in any way I see fit? I feel I have a good reason, so it's cool with you guys right? Fishing is annoying so I'll just bot it. Buying chocobo blinkers is too slow for me so I'll bot that too. Claiming Gukumatz is annoying so I'll claim bot it. Movement speed is too slow and chocobos can't go in caves so I'll just flee everywhere. I shouldn't have to do a quest to get past a door so I'll just walk through it. I need a preposterous amount of gil and even now the game doesn't spit it out fast enough, but my bank account is feeling fat right now so why not RMT?

Quote:

You could not be missing the point harder.

The examples I gave are widely accepted because because they solve bullsh*t. That's the best descriptor I have for it, and SE definitely has a very special brand of it that calls for certain measures like the ones given. It's a categorization where player workarounds are or should be widely accepted (unlike your examples, which are plain cheats), and Nyzul Lamps definitely fall in there.

But if you'd read the whole ******* post and use your brain instead of rubbing your snobbish attitude everywhere, I was justifying just lamp .dats, not flee/clip tools. I'd throw a wild guess that half of Neo Nyzul run losses (coming up short anyway, so even if you manage a floor 80 boss) are because of lamps, and the other half are bad jumps (gee, another stupid luck mechanic). They are a sh*t mechanic and far too dynamic a 'puzzle' for such a hard-timed event.

My point was that what's ******** to you and what's ******** to me are very different things. If it's perfectly acceptable to use cheats for what you think is ********* then it has to be acceptable for me to use cheats for what I think is ******** even if our ideas of what constitutes ******** greatly vary. You're acting here like you claim I'm acting, as though you're the arbiter of what's acceptable and what's not. What's ******** and what's not. It's all rather hypocritical really.

Long ago the OLD User Agreement ambiguously defined cheating tools as "use any third-party software in conjunction with FINAL FANTASY XI" which if you interpret "conjunction" as "at the same time" would mean you couldn't even technically be running Windows at the same time, and would of course include a browser or a media player. But several changes have made it more clear. The current (been this way since at least a year ago) "cheating" clause is

FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement wrote:

You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay.

I'd argue that SE makes one set of rules and you make your own set of rules. We are playing a game. The purpose of both sets of rules should be to maximize fun, and SE should be able to make their rules and game in such a way that there are no difference between the two sets. They're obviously not very good at it if so many people feel the need to blatantly violate the TOS even on the most 3P conservative forums.

Differences between your rules and SE's rules theoretically result in increasing potential for your bannage, so you adjust the rules at your own risk. If you are too afraid to adjust your own rules so the game is still fun for you and end up quitting then SE, you, and your friends have lost out. Afraid to use Windower because SE's magic fairies will snoop on your computer and ban you for using a customizable UI with plugins? You end up quitting? Not fun. Now you don't play the game anymore and your friends have lost another digital warm body at their events.

Not willing to swap NI lamp .dats, and so it feels like SE hasn't released any new content for you and your 5 friends since Abyssea? Game not fun anymore? Feeling the urge to quit? Well, lets not pretend there isn't another option. Despite SE's empty threats and insistence that it isn't, the game is clearly customizable and you could change your install in simple ways so that it's more fun to play. It is better to change the game so it is fun and risk getting banned than to be too afraid to do it and quit of your own accord. The outcome is the same either way.

These things vary from borderline advantage-gaining stuff over other players like statues in Dynamis or PHs (but who really hunts statues or NMs?) to clear advantage gaining stuff mostly against SE (like the NI .dat and Zhayolm) to things that just purely improve the gameplay experience (LL, Dropbox, Gearcollector/Itemizer). I typically avoid doing things that will give me an advantage that could come at the cost of other players, and right now my copy of FFXI has 0 .dats swapped. I haven't even reinstalled XI-View since the last update (though I'd recommend it).

So tell me true. How many of the people really opposed to Windower and .dat swaps still seriously play the game? How many hours do you log a week? Would you log more or reactivate if SE released a macro system that matched their gear system? If SE fixed Neo-NI so it was possible for a normal group, the way original NI was?

I think you misunderstand that post. The Pergatory wasn't saying that everyone who doing this is acting entitled. He was saying the way realix was talking about his methods makes him sound entitled.

I think that Raelix may be acting very exaggerated to prove a point, but there's nothing entitled (acting, or sounding, or being) about Neo Nyzul because it's a senseless event. I think that word gets bandied about more than it should. I think that while I generally like and agree with Pergatory, I think Perg's wrong here. And that doesn't mean I side with outright cheating, including things botting or flee-hacking or clipping, but ****, I already border on cheating because I like what Windower and Spellcast do to a game full of (as Raelix eloquently put it) bullsh*t. I think I agree with Raelix that those lamps are bullsh*t. And I think that means he's not acting entitled. Obviously, we are not directly entitled to just have the gear, which is unfortunate since it some of the only clear upgrades in the game for anyone but stuck in that event. I hope that clears up potential misunderstanding.

Putting you in the 'people with a brain' file, because you summed it up nicely. Reducing bullsh*t is perfectly acceptable to a lot of players.

Tracking placeholders is something that can be done by various methods, renaming them because SE sends that information to the client is acceptable to most in the same way as seeing your party members' TP (as opposed to using something like Apradar to see the mob IDs directly, which gives other, shadier, advantages). So really it's the same argument as TParty; the info is sent to the client and hidden for bullsh*t reasons, so like invisible VNM locations if SE wanted to hide it they certainly could.

Easier inventory control is a matter of getting around the clunky PS2 inclined menu system, which is a matter of more SE bullsh*t about keeping clients similar.

Auto-passing things with LightLuggage always flew a little low for me, even if it was hilarious to pass all feathers and beaks to your party members so their inventories filled faster and you got all the Seals. It's still something you could do entirely manually for the same effect though, and something SE addressed by finally adding auto-sort of inventory (and I say 'finally' because 'three years ago' was still far too late).

If you made a big list of things SE could probably fix in a single weekend, most of them are likely already addressed by stuff like this. It's the fact that SE drags their feet or outright refuses to do anything about these issues that such measures are taken to deal with them. Lamps are definitely in that category to people who actually do the event, which I highly doubt includes any of the opposition in this thread.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 8:07pm by Raelix

____________________________

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

At least someone gets it. Maybe it is a point of view you only get once you leave FFXI but remain a fan, and see the reality of the situation.

It is a game. SE makes whatever rules they want. It's not RL, it's not the law, your rights are not being infringed so that you must revolt and protest to get around the corrupt government. SE made a game, you either play it by their rules or you don't play at all. You don't have a leg to stand on if you do something they say is not allowed.

I know this kind of attitude wont be taken to very lightly around here but it is the truth.

Didn't check overnight, but Laxedrane got the gist of my post, thanks Laxedrane! And Mikeyc, I'm in total agreement.

jlejeune wrote:

I think that Raelix may be acting very exaggerated to prove a point, but there's nothing entitled (acting, or sounding, or being) about Neo Nyzul because it's a senseless event.

If it's a senseless event, then why do it? The drops are fantastic, yes, but none of them will change how you play your job. None of them are required for any particular other event.

So why do Raelix and others feel entitled to cheat in order to win it? If he didn't feel entitled to win Neo-Nyzul, he wouldn't have any reason whatsoever to cheat at it. He'd simply do something else, or do it legit like I do.

Raelix wrote:

Lamps are definitely in that category to people who actually do the event, which I highly doubt includes any of the opposition in this thread.

Feel free to check my FFXIAH equipment history. I've got two Nares and two Phorcys, no cheating involved. [Edit: Ok... it seems FFXIAH.com still doesn't register those items, but trust me I have them.] You don't need to cheat to win Nyzul, in fact it doesn't even improve your odds that much. I'd say you go from maybe 90% luck (10% win chance with a really good group) to maybe 70-80% luck (20-30% win chance, again with a really good group).

Again, this is all based around your sense of entitlement. You feel you deserve to be able to beat this event under easier conditions than SE did, and so you cheat to improve your odds. You can cut it any way you like, but this is what it boils down to in the end. Why else would you swap lamp dats? "To make life easier"? Please. If you want an easier life, play an easier game. Don't lower the bar on something other players have to do the legit way, and cheapen the experience for everyone else, resulting in threads like this where anyone who has Neo-Nyzul gear is assumed to be a cheater.

You don't need to cheat to win Nyzul, in fact it doesn't even improve your odds that much. I'd say you go from maybe 90% luck (10% win chance with a really good group) to maybe 70-80% luck (20-30% win chance, again with a really good group).

My group has cleared floor 100 twice over 50+ runs. On average, we finish 17-18 floors with 20 being our high. The first time we cleared floor 100, that was our 16th floor and we had 3 minutes remaining. The second clear, floor 100 was our 15th floor and we had not yet seen the 5 minute warning by the time the boss went down.

As far as cheats- most play on xbox, two use fillmode, and one guy changed lamp .dats. My point? You're absolutely right, even with cheating, despite clearing 20 floors occasionally, the only time we hit 100 is when we're extremely lucky with the jumps.

Didn't check overnight, but Laxedrane got the gist of my post, thanks Laxedrane! And Mikeyc, I'm in total agreement.

jlejeune wrote:

I think that Raelix may be acting very exaggerated to prove a point, but there's nothing entitled (acting, or sounding, or being) about Neo Nyzul because it's a senseless event.

If it's a senseless event, then why do it? The drops are fantastic, yes, but none of them will change how you play your job. None of them are required for any particular other event.

So why do Raelix and others feel entitled to cheat in order to win it? If he didn't feel entitled to win Neo-Nyzul, he wouldn't have any reason whatsoever to cheat at it. He'd simply do something else, or do it legit like I do.

What's sad is, there will more than likely be side-grades or maybe even upgrades released eventually. There is a new expansion on the way after all and they have to include new events and new gear there right? I think it's smarter to take a wait-and-see approach than take the risk of cheating. Get what you can legitimately now and see what the future holds. Getting suspended or banned is bad enough. Getting suspended or banned over something that may not even matter in a few months is just beyond foolish IMO.

Look at the Salvage dupers. They were banned for cheating to obtain something which is now largely irrelevant. Why did they cheat? Because they felt the event was unfair in some way and they deserved the gear for having to suffer through such a horrid event and for putting up with all of SE's crap over the years. Sounds familiar. History repeats itself. SE is stupid for creating another environment where cheats are bound to be employed, but people cheating their way through Neo-Nyzul are ignoring the past as well. They also probably thought there was no way they'd get caught or that SE didn't have "just cause" to ban them. It's not like SE really needs any though. We all know they can ban for whatever they want. For those who think they won't because of subscription numbers being what they are, don't forget who you're dealing with. Japan practically invented the idea of honor before reason, and SE isn't really known for having a strong ability to reason anyway. I imagine they're perfectly willing to lose a lot of subs to maintain a little integrity.

Raelix wrote:

Lamps are definitely in that category to people who actually do the event, which I highly doubt includes any of the opposition in this thread.

Quote:

Again, this is all based around your sense of entitlement. You feel you deserve to be able to beat this event under easier conditions than SE did, and so you cheat to improve your odds. You can cut it any way you like, but this is what it boils down to in the end. Why else would you swap lamp dats? "To make life easier"? Please. If you want an easier life, play an easier game. Don't lower the bar on something other players have to do the legit way, and cheapen the experience for everyone else, resulting in threads like this where anyone who has Neo-Nyzul gear is assumed to be a cheater.

People just need to admit the truth. It's all about the gear. This isn't some fight against The Man holding them down in the virtual ghetto. It has nothing to do with fixing a broken UI. They want gear. They don't like how the distribution system works. They cheat the system. It's absolutely nothing more than greed and entitlement.

So wtf is 'the oppositions' **** point? Everyone that dat swaps needs to get down on one knee and beg for forgiveness? Everyone agrees this sh*t is a miserable excuse for content. Everyone recognizes SE isn't going to be responsive by any 'reasonable' measure of time or effect. Camp 1 Says @#%^ this. I'm taking sh*t into my own hands because SE has proven useless. Camp 2 is saying no guys! That's BAD try filing a formal complaint instead!

Does that about cover the last 2 pages of circular back and forth? Where are the SOLUTIONS? All this talk about the leetists that need gear for their self esteem vs the casuals are only jealous of the leetists gear is gratuitous generalization of both camps. Quit demonizing each other in some @#%^ed up online class warfare. NO ONE is pointing out that this event is @#%^ing IMPOSSIBLE fir the 99% casuals that dont have relics and crap or half the jobs leveled and geared. You want to talk about haves and have nots quit ******** about this moral high horse sh*t and talk about how to make content accessible. Make pld useful without an ochain. Make war useful without ukko. Or sit here and rail on the moral differences between dat modding mithra into lingerie vs lamps.

I don't know wtf the non cheaters are demanding from the cheaters. An apology? Of what value is that on the internet? Fight fir days in a thread until some Just admit it'? There is no justice in that. The event is still in accessible to any but the top. The event will still be reviled and hated. SE will still be unresponsive, but we have a moral victory on Alla gaiz! According to the logic proposed earlier in this thread, everyone ******** about cheaters should stop posting here and go make a stink on the official forums because that's how you enact change, and if SE doesn't dealbwith the evil hackers then you just didn't complain loud enough. So follow your own avice. This whole thread is ridiculous at this point.

Edit. Spelling and crap sucks. Deal with it I'm phone posting. Anyone have a 3rd party app that will fix up my spacing mishaps and misclicks with touch keyboard? My phones plain Jane version is obviously inadequate, or is that crossing a moral line in the sand? Edited, Jun 28th 2012 3:04pm by Banalaty

NO ONE is pointing out that this event is @#%^ing IMPOSSIBLE fir the 99% casuals that dont have relics and crap or half the jobs leveled and geared. You want to talk about haves and have nots quit ******** about this moral high horse sh*t and talk about how to make content accessible. Make pld useful without an ochain. Make war useful without ukko.

I like this angle, but then again, I'm a total casual.

The thing is a lot of people (see: voidwatch "empy onry" threads) don't see a problem with locking out the majority of the playerbase from new content. On one hand that really annoys me, on the other hand I just don't care that much. I can see the difficulty in a sense - if the content is tuned for people like me, then it won't be a challenge for people like Raelix.On the other hand, it becomes sort of a "we'd hire you but you don't have experience" type of thing, where if you're cut out from leading edge content, you're always left behind cause you don't have the gear (experience) to move forward.

Then again a lot of people are happy to rail on about how easy it is to get an empy etc... which of course, completely disregards the fact that they aren't really something you can solo (especially if you don't DB) and for someone with limited playtime - they just aren't a realistic goal anyway. (I'd quit if I tried to make one, honestly, cause it would take all the joy out of the game for me)

Asking people to do a numbing task for 6 months or so of their paid playtime so that they can join in on newer content is a good way to ensure your playerbase stagnates.

That said, I have a lot of other things I can work on in the meantime, so I don't let it bother me too much. I do think it is bad design, however, and I am sure I will hit the wall again and unsub when it bugs me too much.

____________________________

lolgaxe wrote:

When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

At least the event would make more sense if lamps were **** mithra. Gotta turn the mithra on very carefully. Gotta hit the right buttons in the right order and hit them with the proper teqnique or you dont turn the mithra on. Some mithra need simultaneous stimulation from multiple sources. Some need stimulation in different areas in just the right order and NO ONE knows the right order. Women are a mystery.. Some you just get 6 guys to all hit the same spot one after the other. Lamp floors should be adjusted so they more accurately reflect the mission objectives. How to love a mithra.

The event is horrible and I guarantee I hate anything that's random and inaccessible even more than any of you. My solution would be to make it work exactly like original Nyzul Isle with exactly the same rewards and distribution it has now. Remove random floor jumps and replace them with one-floor-at-a-time w/ savable progress. We'd all end up 15/15 on floor 100 gear eventually and that would be just fine with me. I'd also like to see all new rings/earrings/necklaces/ammo purchasable through large amounts of tokens. It wouldn't be a bad idea to add unique NMs to the standard floors with appraisal drops you don't see elsewhere. I wouldn't put anything gamebreaking on them, but offer some nice free side-grades as random rewards.

See while I'm harsh about cheating, I'm way nicer than any MMO dev will ever be. Even Yoshi_P can't compete. Of course, I can't actually fix the game. Only SE can do that. All I can really do is just tell them what they're doing wrong, tell them what I'd rather see, and don't do content I don't like.

Look at the Salvage dupers. They were banned for cheating to obtain something which is now largely irrelevant. Why did they cheat? Because they felt the event was unfair in some way and they deserved the gear for having to suffer through such a horrid event and for putting up with all of SE's crap over the years. Sounds familiar.

Almost all the gear from that era is totally irrelevant now, including the gear of those who were not banned. Between people who duped and those that didn't do Salvage, it's not hard to guess which had more fun in Salvage. Ignoring content because it's impossible or the reward/effort ratio is too low makes it so the content may as well not have been added. If people are content to do Neo-Nyzul for a year with a ~5% chance of winning and find that fun, then the reward/effort ratio of this event isn't bad for them. Most people aren't like that, though.

I personally wish there was some way for players to make Legion's effort/reward ratio higher. As it stands, I've entered Legion once. Think of the fun I could be having if there was some way to make the event worthwhile. Oh well.

Camiie wrote:

People just need to admit the truth. It's all about the gear. This isn't some fight against The Man holding them down in the virtual ghetto. It has nothing to do with fixing a broken UI. They want gear. They don't like how the distribution system works. They cheat the system. It's absolutely nothing more than greed and entitlement.

First off, it's hard to be greedy in a system that rewards everyone that enters equally. Unless you're relying on the "You're cheating, but you're cheating yourself and are oddly totally fine with it" strained logic, this paragraph is pretty much DOA. Who gets screwed over when someone .dat swaps in NI? SE patches the event slower? We seem to be in agreement that that is not the case. People have to suffer the marginally increased performance of their shout Voidwatch party members? That doesn't seem like ******** someone over at all.

Secondly, I guess, gear is the incentive to do every event. People hunt gear and improve their characters because it's fun. Again, comparing it to Legion where there is very little/no gear I want and which relies on an infeasible multi-alliance structure for NA/EU players in this day and age, I wish there were more worthwhile rewards or less effort involved so people would actually do the event. As it is, the effort required is huge (no one wants to go back to big LSs) and the rewards are pretty small (Abjurations that no one can HQ? Mage gear, when Mages are mostly useful in Legion? Why bother?) Furthermore, of the few NA/EU shells large enough to do Legion on my server (two?), I don't think either have won a chamber yet. You wanted elitism? There you have it. If only we could .dat swap bad design away there too.

While ***************** at SE out of spite for their history of poor design choices doesn't bother me too much, what does and has been mentioned is the effect of false positives through the actions of the "cheaters" making the event seem more reasonable than it really is. Yes, SE is the type of company that will just let something in-game rot if it doesn't hold interest. Yes, they're the type that also seems to subscribe to the philosophy that only having a few of a given item in circulation (for all the wrong reasons) is a good thing.

It'd be nice if we could collectively just give SE the bird in protest, but it only takes one person to ruin that unity. It just snowballs from there as human nature kicks in and things like jealousy, competition, vanity, and so on come out to play. I have no trouble not doing NNI even though there are items that'd be nice to have. I do have a problem, though, if they wind up becoming some kind of standard expectation as "the new Perle set" or what have you, especially from SE themselves. In the end, I'd actually like to do NNI without super perfect party builds and get something to show for it at a reasonable clip, but that's just not possible in this incarnation of the event given my own sensibilities and sympathy toward others.