Since this is in the news I will post it now. I know this is a no win situation, but I will give it a shot anyway.

The teachings of the ten commandments, the natural law, and of Christ's Church are not an attack on gays . . . but I don't see how anyone take it any other way. To me, the practice of being gay is based more on emotion and feelings than logic or nature. We know what the ten commandments, Christ and Christ's Church teach about the moral law . . . but some do not believe that.
That said . . . here goes a try at an explanation.

What I am going to say will seem harsh, but it is not. It is clear and True. It may seem to a person of gay practice that their actions, which to me is what makes them gay, are normal but, there is nothing natural, and thus nothing normal, about having sex with a member of the same sex, as the parts they simply do not fit. It was not provided by Nature or Nature’s God. Gay actions are not a natural biological practice. Gay actions are unnatural according to the nature of our bodies. It is a lie against the body, and if you believe Christ and HIS Church, it is also a lie/sin in the soul as well.

No one wants to hear that they are sinning. Especially a person who may be struggling with guilt or strong and difficult emotions. No one, can live with guilt. Because of this inability to live with guilt, a person who practices sinful acts will either repent and try to live life according to his Beliefs of Faith, humbly trying to grow in a Life of Grace, or, that person will revolt and fight against those who tell them they are sinning, because it is unbearable to live with guilt. Who are they to tell me ! Away from faith, the sinner may try to be good in other ways, or the sinner will become a fanatic trying to destroy who is telling him he is sinning . . . those unforgivable “harsh” Catholics. This is one big reason why John the Baptist was beheaded, Thomas Moore was beheaded, and Christ was crucified. Because the powers that be could not bear to hear Christ or His Followers tell them they were in a wrong way, no matter how nicely He or they put it. How nicely can you tell someone they are sinning? It seldom seems to come across as nice or friendly. Only those who are willing to readily acknowledge/confess their sins can live within Christ's rules. If one cannot admit their sins, that one usually cannot tolerate Christ or His Church’s offerings of forgiveness to the repentant sinner. Unrepentant sinners find such an offering of forgiveness to be very condescending and to be intolerably offensive and unforgivable in itself. Christ told them they had to repent. People don't like to hear that. So they Crucified Him.

As to the gay agenda:
Gay Marriage is trying to be made the law of the land. This is not possible as it is against Divine Law and Natural Law, by the very Laws of Nature and the Divine Institution of Holy Matrimony what it is in its' essence. You may believe something else than this, but you will find no evidence of support in either God’s Word or in God's Creation. Holy Matrimony is between a man and a woman. For His purpose . . . Life giving Love. Marriage does not have to do as much with allowing us the permission to have sex as it has to do with the transmitting of Life and the raising of children according to the rules of Nature and Nature's God. Further, since sin, especially sexual sin, is a spiritual illness, and is rather contagious, easily caught, due to our fallen nature, many parents are rightfully worried and concerned and frightened by the blatant gay agenda items that are being promoted in our culture as if they are not sinful, as if they were natural, which they are obviously not.

The gay agenda is alive and well. Especially if a person of gay lifestyle is trying to be freed, we can and should have care and love for people who have temptations to act in a gay manner, and should sympathize that they are having difficulty in freeing themselves from such attachments and allurements. The same that frighten parents for their easily influenced children.

We can and should worry, and take action, about those who have the temptation to live a gay lifestyle and want to spread it around. We should first pray, for them and for ourselves. We should also resist them in every way, on the Natural and the Super Natural levels. It is an obligation and a necessity. But always pray first, being ready to forgive and help them.

This kind of sin is a sin unto death, spiritually speaking, if not physically (which also appears to be a possibility -- with aids, etc) . . . and it is rightfully understandable that a parent would be fearful of this sin for the sake of their present or future children or their children's future to come.__________________Terrence P. Tuffy

Be steady in your convictions, and be a person of your word.
Book of Sirach 5:10

Originally Posted by TerrencePTuffyLSA69 The teachings of the ten commandments, the natural law, and of Christ's Church are not an attack on gays . . . but I don't see how anyone take it any other way.

People who are against gay marriage will quote The Ten Commandments, Natural law, Church teachings and anything else they find to back them up. Hence, some people take it that way

Agreed, it is a no win situation. Unless someone comes up with a foolproof arguement against gay marriage, it'll happen soon.

God knows who is sincerely sorry and who is not. The Sacrament of Penance is a two way street. The mere pronouncement of absolution is not enough.

As for the sexual crisis in the Church, I have no doubt it will weather the storm. It has in the past and will become stronger because of it. It is just a shame that the majority of good priests are taking such a beating over the actions of a few. Having been a police officer I can relate to that.The press attacks the Church because of it's unyielding and unchanging moral teaching and is quick to point to those that falter. In a recent poll, 99.98 percent of priests throughout the United States had no credible accusation made against them in 2005. That's 5 in about 42,000.(I would be willing to wager that if other churches had a central reporting authority, as does the Catholic Church, their crimes would number proportionally higher. It's tough to compile stats on 35,000 different denominations compared to one. Don't take that as me making an excuse. To those who have been entrusted much, much has to be expected.) __________________Terrence P. Tuffy

Be steady in your convictions, and be a person of your word.
Book of Sirach 5:10

Oklahoma became the fifth state to recently approve the death penalty for second time child rapists. (I believe the age qualifier is under 14).

Seems to me to pose a logical conundrum for those politically and religiously conservative Catholics who support states rights, the death penalty and who minimize the priest/pedophilia situation as a few misguided souls.

While I know we were "blessed" to be given a very superior education by attending Mater Christi. We were also taught to think. Many of us that took advantage of thinking have realised a number of self evident realities. The first is that religion is cultural brainwashing. If you were born in Saudi Arabia we would be fervently Moslem. If born in Texas we likely would believe that being a Baptist was the only way to god or heaven. Indians would see polytheist belief as superior. So, I figured that if catholicism had validity or even godism, I should be able to see it without the pre-suppositions and dogma implanted for years in catholic schools. I found it didn't exist. Religion seemed easier to explain as man invented (as with god), than as representing objective reality. This was NOT good news. When it is over it is over...but there is NOTHING visible to real people to the contrary. That brings us to gay marriage. I guess I am combining topics here but there is such an assumption about starting with the catholic church as gods word I wanted to pop that bubble first. So, there is proof that there are gay people (ever been to a gay pride event???) There is no proof of god. So, why are gay people persecuted so much by religionists? Denial of equal treatment to gay people is bigotry based regardless of the dressing put on it. Many here remember how important it was to protect the purity of the white race by outlawing interracial marriage. Marriage is just a social contract supported by a free country for free people. If the ONLY limit is differrent gender, what protection is that for marriage???? Ever seen white trash couples? Are they the nadir of the "sacred" institution of marriage? If you want to protect marriage keep out MOST of the heterosexuals who abuse it instead of gay couples who take it seriously. In summary, I wish all High Schools could be as good as MC even with all the silly catholic stuff I used buy hook, line and sinker.....please feel free to check my website out http://www.chezmoi.net and I welcome comments.... Barry

Seems to me to pose a logical conundrum for those politically and religiously conservative Catholics who support states rights, the death penalty and who minimize the priest/pedophilia situation as a few misguided souls.

Frank,
If your talking about me,, I see no conflict. States rights, yes. Death penalty, no - with exceptions. Ya gotta be more specific.__________________Terrence P. Tuffy

Be steady in your convictions, and be a person of your word.
Book of Sirach 5:10

I was just wondering outloud: "if you, (not you Terry, but any 'you'), believe that the death penalty can be morally justified and you agree that states have the right to make their own laws regard capital punishment, then according to at least five states, some priests would be eligible for death row."

So, the purpose of your life is? An' if you were as godless as you would have us believe, and are only living for the moment, why would you argue for any standards at all?

I am not familiar with this forum software so if my comments don't format right blame user error.... Purpose of life is a human concept and invention. Nature does not need purpose it just is. I know that is a scary thought but the comforts of religious belief don't guarantee they are valid. Indeed, religious people point to all sorts of things as "proof" of the existence of their god while never able to make an actual testable proof. If one is to prove there is a god, AND that such a god even has concern for you, AND that the religion you practice is something this god is influenced by, then you have reason to direct your life accordingly. Lacking that, you are just waiting for Santa Claus as an adult. I do not need a god or a church to tell me that kindness is good and violence is wrong. It is self evident. I also don't need to be bribed or threatened by a "heaven" or a "hell" to do that. Many will take the approach of making arguments to point to inconsistencies and really stupid things about religion to "prove" there is not god. Logic says that the burden of proof is on the "person" positing the thesis (god exists), not on the the challenger. I know the usual comeback is that FAITH not proof is what propels religion. If there is no concrete and provable origin to religion and it relies only on faith, then why not worship me as your true god since at least you know I exist and it is provable by reasonable human observations? As for the catholic church itself, it is full of both good doers and bad doers. The current "pope" is a great example of that. He is intensely homophobic and more than ready to impose his archaic repressive sexual attitudes on the world regarding birth control, AIDS prevention and abortion. At the same time he is forward at opposing the death penalty and the war culture we have developed. I took great pleasure watching the treasuries of the catholic church looted by those claiming "molestation" and leveraging the same anti-sexual hysteria that the catholic church has promoted. I guess even the catholic church is affected by Karma.

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Denial of equal treatment

Where did I or anyone say that? Gays can find equal treatment with Civil Union.

Remember "separate but equal"? Civil Unions are inherently limited and a denial of the validity of gay relationships.

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If you want to protect marriage keep out MOST of the heterosexuals who abuse it instead of gay couples who take it seriously.

The church does attempt to do this with it's Pre Canna program. (We can argue it's effectiveness on a later thread. But, at least it's something.)

I find it funny that you have people leading an unnatural and loveless lifestyle, such as a celeb ate, teaching people about relationships and sex. Denial of the need for companionship and sex is unnatural and unhealthy. An Australian controlled study showed that men who experienced frequent orgasms had about 30% less risk of prostate cancer.

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I wish all High Schools could be as good as MC even with all the silly catholic stuff

Mater Christi was as good as it was because of all the Catholic stuff. Is this evidence of the God you can't see?

Evidence of peoples belief is not evidence of that belief being valid.

An interesting study recently in the UK compared outcomes of surgeries for three groups of people. People who prayed to god for help, people who did not and people who meditated. I am paraphrasing but there was virtually no difference between prayers and nonprayers. People IMAGINE outcomes being the result of a god or explain away the complete lack of correlation because they believe. I am not against people being religious. I am against those who impose it on others either through laws or attitudes. If you don't believe in gay marriage, don't do it. Let those that do and are gay make their life choices. When I was in HS you could go to any state and be arrested for gay sex. NO ONE ever mentioned gays in conversations and there were none in movies except villains. This was culture bolstering and bolstered by religious intolerance.

You're right. If you have no Faith, there is no God. Faith is truly a gift.

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then why not worship me as your true god since at least you know I exist

Because I have no faith in you.

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Remember "separate but equal"? Civil Unions are inherently limited and a denial of the validity of gay relationships.

Only because men make it so. Marriage was a totally religious institution at one time. If you are as atheistic as you say, shouldn't you be arguing that gays would be better served demonstrating for equal rights legislation. Rather than trying to fit a definition that has, over centuries, been accepted to mean one thing and one to which they can not conform?

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...such as a celeb ate, teaching people about relationships and sex.

My daughter's doctor is male. Do I need a sexually active female doctor to explain sex and puberty to her?

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am against those who impose it on others either through laws or attitudes. If you don't believe in gay marriage, don't do it. Let those that do and are gay make their life choices.
When I was in HS you could go to any state and be arrested for gay sex.

That's when people believed there was such a thing as sodomy. Since we have no destiny, why not? Why not lower the age of consent to 12, like they are trying to do in Holland? Abortion. Euthanasia. Suicide. It all come down to this - moral decay. Every effort to raise the moral standard will be objected to because it's a part of someone's religion. Bologna.

The thing is, your religion tells you that this is the best it will ever get for you. Sad.

Another sad thing, I wish I was better at apologetics. __________________Terrence P. Tuffy

Be steady in your convictions, and be a person of your word.
Book of Sirach 5:10

That's when people believed there was such a thing as sodomy. Since we have no destiny, why not? Why not lower the age of consent to 12, like they are trying to do in Holland? Abortion. Euthanasia. Suicide. It all come down to this - moral decay. Every effort to raise the moral standard will be objected to because it's a part of someone's religion. Bologna.

The thing is, your religion tells you that this is the best it will ever get for you. Sad.

Another sad thing, I wish I was better at apologetics.

Your religion is what men have defined for you based on absolutes from "god". There is reason to believe that they came from god but they then become unassailable. So, if god has supreme authority and we have to obey and use this as our moral compass instead of our own intellect, then why are there so many compass directions? If you were born in Saudi Arabia surely you would be following Islam. But of course you wild have all sorts of rainbows in variations of Islam. What I pick up from you is that you have never seriously questioned the entire concept of god, or spirituality or religion (all of which are differ rent) You follow what you are told as the formula that you were culturalised (like the Moslem in Saudi) and are convinced that if you follow the "catholic" formula you will be rewarded. This gives you comfort and I applaud it for that. Children believe in Santa. No one ever thanked someone for telling them that there was no Santa. Religion is a fairy tale for adults who in the rest of their lives would never take anything on faith, but rather require proof. I am not an atheist however, they are sure there is no such thing as god. I simply wait for things to be proven. If you had been brought up in a society that worshiped ME, you likely would not question it. Everyone around you wild reinforce it and all the public holidays would give it validity. At least you could SEE that I existed. That is more than any god in which I am familiar. My point really here is that if you will believe by faith then you really have no compass on what to believe, it is all a matter of where you were born. As for moral "decay" that you quote, I am more concerned with the self-righteous and all the death and destruction they cause. The morally up tight Baptists convening congress to save the non-existent life of a brain dead woman spending millions on brain dead while refusing prenatal care aid for millions, spending billions on a false war killing 100s of thousands and equally abysmal Islamic fundamentalists and their killing in response. You could lower the age of consent to 5 in Holland and not do the harm that you have here. (I refrained from making comments about how this might help priest recruiting in Holland). BTW, in my perfect world children would be brought up as informed adults instead of "protected" from sexual understanding. There is far less teen pregnancy in Europe where sex is more open than here in the USA where it is suppressed. France does not recognize church weddings. There is a civil ceremony and any religious celebration is optional and purely for religious reasons. How very rational is that! For the state, marriage is a contractual relationship between two people. Contracts are civil matters in which EQUALITY is guaranteed under the equal protection clause. Agreeing about "definition" of marriage being traditionally hetero based is pointless. It is that way because of sexual suppression, particularly of gay people. Now is the time to make it right. The church can ignore it, refuse to recognize it...in time they will change. I remember when there was no Catholic divorce. Sorry, but there are no moral absolutes. Even religions vary in what they define as such...so what is absolute anymore? Can't eat pork? Can't eat any meat on Friday? Can't have sex near the period? Can't masturbate? (big advantages to dumping the whole mortal sin shtick)

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