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Author
Topic: KPax (Read 10775 times)

Are the KPAX supplements mostly hype? They've come out with a less-expensive version but it looks like a it may contain the same stuff found in your everyday garden variety multi-tab...don't quote me though.

From what I understand KPAX supplements don't really meet the claims that the manufacturers make. The studies I've read indicate that poz people taking KPAX supplements didn't experience any improvement in immune function, better health outcomes or a reduced incidence of sickness and death.

Not only that there are some serious question marks how the manufacturers represent their claims.

That aside, I've always believed that the best way to get the vitamins and minerals you need is through a proper balanced diet. If a poz bod has a deficiency it should be diagnosed and assessed by your doctor and any treatment pursued in consultation with your doctor.

I think Matty hit it pretty well. Kpax are not necessarily all they're purported to be, at least from what I have been able to discern.

A good, balanced diet is probably the best way to get your essentials. My doc usually recommends that his HIV patients take regular multivitamin to help replenish nutrients, etc., lost in the battle against the virus.

Frankly, I don't know that one vitamin is better than others, except for those that refuse to dissolve once swallowed.

Next time you see your doc, ask him/her whether it is a good idea to take a vitamin and, if so, whether he/she has a recommendation.

Are the KPAX supplements mostly hype? They've come out with a less-expensive version but it looks like a it may contain the same stuff found in your everyday garden variety multi-tab...don't quote me though.

Yeah, the less expensive version seems to be more like a regular multi. I have been very interested in kpax, but it's a little expensive, and I was already taking a bunch of supplements that it duplicates. I started reading Jon Kaiser's "Healing HIV" book where he makes his recommendations, and it is interesting. He cites a number of studies in it, but they are mostly small ones. I showed the KPAX formula to my HIV doctor. He is quite skeptical and says there is nothing special about it. He recommends just a regular multi and selenium (plus a lot of extra vitamin D for me, since I have a severe deficiency), but when pushed, he said he isn't opposed to me taking the higher amounts of minerals and vitamins that are in KPAX. So, I decided to give it a try and I bought a *bunch* of different supplements to match the KPAX formula with what I already had. KPAX is 8 capsules a day for the single strength. By the time I receive everything, it will be about 35 (!) with the separate ingredients. For anyone who cares about going the crazy separate way, I can email you my spreadsheet with the doses and price of where I got each one. I figure that way if there is any one ingredient/dose that my body doesn't agree with, I can just remove or lower it. And it still cost me less than 2/3rd of the price per day vs KPAX. If anything, taking that many supplements will ensure that I always drink enough liquid in the morning to be able to swallow all that at once I'm not concerned about medication interactions since I'm not on HIV meds at this time.

I only started taking higher amounts of supplements about a week ago. I have been adding a couple new ones every day as I receive them from the various suppliers. I can honestly say that I started feeling a lot better, energy and mood-wise. I started working an extra day a week (4 instead of 3) and worked out 3 days this week already, whereas before I had visited it only 5 days in the last 3 months (my gym keeps records and tells me when I sign in). And I had longer workouts and didn't feel exhausted at all after. On the exercise bike my pulse was in the 150s at peak effort, whereas it is usually in the 170s - 180s. I went to workout on monday with my bf who exercises every day, and he stopped much before I did. And I am someone who generally gets exhausted very easily and hate exercise in general. I couldn't exercise today because my exercise shirt was still so sweaty from the day before. Usually I go so rarely that I let it dry and reuse it. I gotta buy and pack some more .

Of course, I can't say if the supplements have anything to do with any of this, there is certainly some psychosomatic effect, but I believe that they make a difference for me. Your mileage may obviously vary, and I am only a very short time into it. I will report if this continues. I sure hope so, because I don't recall ever feeling this good.

The sizziling denizen of the woodlands thanks MtD for the excellent article link.

Unlike The Angry Toxicologist, I feel that the makers of Kpax are preying upon HIVers with the aid of a respected researcher. The product focuses exclusively on micronutrients backed by specious science and creates conflated expectations, often leading people to avoid conventional therapies.

I'm a bit frustrated overall with the whole do supplements do something or is it nothing or do we just have a multi etc...

And I have my own concerns regarding what my doc call Boutique Care, which largely is what Kaiser and his organization provides.

But I do give Kaiser some benefit of the doubt because of his good call on Intestinal Parasites, which I had the misfortune of acquiring. I did pick up Blasto Hominus and as Kaiser predicted, my VL and CD4 count "went" the wrong way. Both my GP and my Specialist were a bit in the dark about the impact of intestinal parasites and HIV. As I was fortunately enough for the treatment to work, my CD4 and VL recovered to their previous positions, although I did not achieve the same levels as before.

I also have Enzyme issue with my liver even though I am not on meds. In fact it was my liver and the questions around why i was having enzyme issues that prompted me to get my HIV test, which I regretfully neglected for a year. As my diagnosis was Fatty Liver, I was encouraged to exercise and diet, both sensible recommendation. After My HIV test and diagnosis and further tests, my liver counts continued to rise for a while until I began to take Alpha Lipoic Acid, NAC and Carnitine. Altough I can exercise to the point of riding 150 miles on a bike over two days, I didn't loose too much weight. After the supps, my liver counts went to 0.

Now of course the exercise I'm sure helped and because I'm doing more than one thing at a time, it's hard to trace or connect one specific action with a result. And of course with the vagaries of human biology, things don't always do the way anticipated or unexpected things or nothing happens.

Can an individual supplement make a difference? Can a broad approach to supplementation help?

Nothing is worse to sit here and essentially almost make a faith based argument. Without study, how are we to make any determination as to what we should do, or what is a good way to go. It is my feeling that Kaiser makes some good points along the way, showing some insight into HIV infection and way to treat it with both nutritional and medical techniques. What is missing is verification that this stuff makes a difference. Leaving folks like me to, take a stab, what the heck, give it a shot and see what happens. Which is basically what I'm doing with ECGC - the latest supplement I've added to my made up K-PAX formula.

Good health is not found in a pill. What we eat, drink and the amount of exercise and sleep, and luck in avoiding other infections are all important to how our bodies can resist the advance of HIV. But when all is said and done, if performed well, we can only delay the inevitable for when we have to go to the medical solution.

I have been able to "boost" my CD4 up about 10% where I was after the parasitic infection. And My VL had dropped about 20%. At my September Test, I will see if I can associate any improvement, if there is any, to the ECGC supplement. But I agree that it would be a mistake to believe that I can avoid meds all together. When I hit that 350 mark or maybe a bit sooner, I will agree to start a PI based regimine, probably Reyataz + Epzicom.

The sizziling denizen of the woodlands thanks MtD for the excellent article link.

Unlike The Angry Toxicologist, I feel that the makers of Kpax are preying upon HIVers with the aid of a respected researcher. The product focuses exclusively on micronutrients backed by specious science and creates conflated expectations, often leading people to avoid conventional therapies.

Well, Jon Kaiser certainly doesn't recommend the supplements as the only form of therapy, though he does recommend supplementation for all his patients. But the vitamin & supplements make up only 20 pages out of his 355 page book, one section of his chapter on natural therapies. He spends a lot more time discussing HAART and clinical scenarios such as when to go on them and which ones to choose. And when he wrote the book in 1999, he wasn't marketing K-PAX yet, so I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt on his motivations. K-PAX is mostly based on the recommendations in his book. I agree that the research is lacking, but not many are willing to fund large studies on unpatentable vitamins & minerals unfortunately. It looks like he found one company's interest, Bristol Myers, and they funded one study, and produced K-PAX. See http://www.positivenation.co.uk/issue125/treatment/treatment1/treatment1.htm .

Anyway, if this is snake oil, I should find out soon enough. I had a significant dip in my labs recently. I'm not on HAART yet. If the supplements can help me stay off HAART a little bit longer, even if I can't prove it is because of them, I'll be happy, but I'm certainly not going to forego HAART for supplements. If I have two consecutive tests with CD4 < 350 then I will go on HAART. If this works for me I'll get my bf to take some more of the supplements too, since his CD4 count is still below 300 and % < 20 after 6 months of Atripla, despite being only 29, undetectable VL for a few months, good diet, daily exercise, and a recent HIV infection his AIDS diagnosis (all within the last year). It's not like our doc has any other suggestion about anything he can do to improve his counts.

I went to see the good doctor do a presentation at a hospital in Portland, OR. He was all about his KPax and intestinal critters. I couldn't afford his vitamins but I did start taking my own vit & min cocktail with lots of antioxidants, plus LOTS of calcium. I have met a number of poz guys with hip replacements and other bone issues well before the age of 40. I slack off from time to time but I am convinced that calcium is of major importance.

The good doctor on the other hand, I have lost respect for. Once I got hooked on his ideas and started to follow his protocols, I participated in his online chats, to this day i am convinced that it wasn't him online, but someone working for him trying to sell his KPax product. No questions would ever be answered except about the KPax product, where to buy it and so on. When the heat would get kinda high in the chat room from people who's real and legit problems he refused to talk about the chat would close.

He professed to being there to answer our HIV questions but then did no such thing, just pitched his product. He himself was about the same way in real life at the hospital presentation. Gilead paid him to be there and as one would expect that's who's product he was telling people to take along with the KPax. I think he started out with nothing but pure intentions but has become consumed by his own product.

Thanks for the update! It is disappointing to hear that Kaiser has become a shill for a product. But I take you at your word and your experience.

I was happy at one time to essentially endorse his protocol, especially after my intestinal parasite issue. I still hope that some of the foundation for his ideas still have merit, but I'm now going to have to retreat a bit and review the formulation of supps I have created for myself.

I still believe that supps can help support supply our immune system and biological function in the struggle with HIV. I hope I can justify that belief.

Personally, Although I gave it thought, I could not justify the expense of KPAX. Instead I built a formula that included the different components from a quality Multi with Selenium, Alpha Lopoic Acid, NAC, Carnintine and Glutamine.

I think that many of the people who responded to your post on K-PAX are ignorant of the body of literature on the benefits of micronutrients in HIV disease. If you find K-PAX too expensive, find other sources of quality vitamins and add alpha lipoic acid, NAC and Acetyl L Carnitine.

One person I know had an allergic reaction to something in K-PAX and had to stop taking them. Everyone else that I know has experienced benefit -- and a significant increase in CD4 count -- both people on meds and those who have never taken them.

In addition to the supplements, the other advice Dr. Kaiser promotes is very worthwhile. Such as parasite treatment, healthy eating, hormone support etc.

I know there are essentially two lines of thought, with plenty of space between, about supplementation.

Essentially, Either they are good, or, you a healthy diet is what you should have and supplementation can be limited or is not necessary.

As most who know my postings are aware that I am in the supplements are good camp, I have been somewhat frustrated by the whole KPAX issue, is Kaiser just a shill or is there something in the formula that is helpful to us.

After a couple of months thinking about it, and experimenting with my supplementation, I feel much more comfortable advocating supplements.

I respect the discussion and the belief that a healthy diet should be able to provide the nutients one needs, but I'm going to qualify that statment. I believe a healthy diet can provide the standard nutrients one body needs to function, but I am not certain that one can get the nutrients that are being depleted by HIV soley from diet alone.

There are many side effects from HIV infection. Its not all about CD4 cells. Common effects in the digestive track alone, among which diahrhea is one, can be treated and supported by taking a glutamine supplement in a quantity that can support the digestive track and even stop the diahrhea. If one needs 5 grams of glutamine to control diahrhea and support digestive health, I'm not aware of what food I would eat to get that quantity of glutamine.

Just posted on the Aidsmeds news was a study that reinforced the idea the Acety-l-Carnintine can improve neuropathy symptoms. It seemed to imply that it may in fact help control/repair damage done by HIV and meds to the nerves.

I have liver enzyme issues that Alpha Lipoic Acid has helped.

I have energy issues that MSM has helped. My understanding is that HIV's effect of lowering gluathione levels through sulphur depletion may be addressed by taking essentially a sulphur supplement, MSM.

I also am taking ECGC supplement (green tea extract) the equivelent of 20 cups a day, to see if there is any uptick in my CD4 that perhaps can be attributed to this supp. I should know in Novemeber if my nunbers have improved since I've added that supplement into my regimine.

The problem is of course that I'm essentially self medicating based largely on information posted on Aidsmeds and Newyorkbuyersclub.org and Kaiser's stuff. Its not a cure, but a way to address some of the more serious side effects of HIV infection. All I can share is my opinion that diet is important, and can provide what one needs for sure if your neg. But if your POZ, I don't know that diet alone can address the myriad of issues that can manifest themselves as side effects or direct effects of HIV infection.

Being that some of us have better control over HIV than others, and I'm an other, I'm relying on my supps in a withering attempt to stay off meds as long as reasonable. Because my energy was being sapped earlier this summer, i thought it was coming time to get on meds to get the virus down, hoping that would address the increasing fatigue I was feeling. But since I've put MSM back in my supplementation, I feel a whole lot better.

Does this mean that you all should go out there and take MSM? Well the answer is no. It is something one has to be able to determine for oneself, based upon age, symptoms and potential effects that are more evident in some than others. And not being a Doctor, or a nutritionist, really doesn't qualify me to say anything. But, for those who come to this forum labled nutrition, there are those of us who are looking to feel better and hopefully support our immune systems from the effects of HIV and to hopefully alleviate some of the serious issues assiciated with Meds. For those types of things, my opinion is you need more than a great diet to sometimes address these issues.

I suppose I'm in similar position to Madbrain and take a similar view - and I'd also agree with Risred1. I have been on KPAX for a few months now and certainly feel better and more energetic for it. This is not to say I'm entirely sold on it, but if it really is snakeoil I'll soon enough find out. The target I've set myself is six months - if I see no significant improvement in numbers then I'll drop it. So far CD4 has not improved but VL certainly has lowered (I know, I know, this might well be coincidental).

I attended a lecture by Kaiser in London and he appeared very knowledgeable and persuasive. He was plainly not there simply to sell KPAX and answered many questions unrelated to supplements. In fact, the larger part of the session was focused on the issue of eliminating intestinal parasites - something that I can't see would earn him a dime.

The study didn't actually prove what it set out to prove, but it did find a statistically significant difference with respect to CD4 counts between the group taking KPAX and the control group who took nothing (the percentage increase in absolute CD4 count from baseline for the micronutrient group was 26% vs a 2% increase in the placebo group). During the lecture Kaiser readily acknowledged that this study was relatively small in scale and short in duration and also agreed with critics that the better comparison would be between a group taking KPAX and a group taking a standard multivit. He claims it has been impossible to find any pharmaceuticals interested in funding such a larger-scale study (and I can certainly believe that could be true).

I've obviously noted Angry Toxicologist's observations. They're certainly thought-provoking though clearly not coming from an immunologist or doctor dealing with HIV patients. Still, I'm surprised s/he seemed to miss the above study in the literature review. Also, I get the impression s/he is thinking in terms of micronutrient supplementation needs in otherwise healthy people. The idea that fighting the virus consumes nutrients on a scale that cannot solely be replenished by food intake doesn't seem to me that far fetched an idea. But I'd acknowledge the proof for that is incomplete.

Initially I found the price of KPAX to be just ridiculous expensive. It might still be, but once I'd tried to put together a alternative combo using quality products from renowned suppliers such as Solgar, KPAX was actually less expensive than my combo. And this was using a discount scheme for poz people. This might just be a UK problem because I've obviously noticed that others in he US have been able to save lots of money on creating their own combo. Looking back I guess I think it's been worth the money solely for the increased energy levels, but ultimately I will want to see improved lab results to justify carrying on with KPAX. At the end of the day, even if it only buys me a bit more time off meds than would otherwise have been the case then I think it would be well worth it.

I'd like to report on my experience taking a combo that includes everything in KPAX for a couple months, and a few more things.I definitely felt a boost the first month after starting in august. I had labs taken in mid-september that showed my CD4 rebounded a bit to 612 from their low of 569 in july . This is not very significant, but I was very glad to see it go back up rather than down. My VL also went down to 1727 which is the lowest it's been all year, compared to the previous number which was 2661 all-time high. I was happy to see that. At the very least I can say the crazy number of pills and capsules I have been taking was not detrimental to my labs, even though I can't say if any of them helped at all.

Unrelated to the K-PAX combo supplement, I also had my vitamin D levels finally go up signficantly to 76 ng/dL from about 12, after adding a weekly 50,000 IU prescription of vitamin D, and increasing the OTC ones I was taking from 1200 daily IU to about 6500 IU. So I'm finally in the normal 30-100 range for D - previously I had a severe defficiency. I wish the insurance company would test levels for all the other vitamins/supllements. They had tested my D levels due to some psych meds I have been taking long term that can deplete it.

The combo was however quite hard on the stomach to take so many at once - about 30 different ingredients in 35 - 40 different pills/capsules. at first, I was taking them all when waking up (I won't say morning, since I'm not a morning person) with the hope of getting a boost during the daytime. But I generally am not hungry when I wake up. So I was having mostly liquids with it and little food. So, I switched to dividing them between morning and evening in late september. This reduced the problem, but it seems to also have reduced the benefits I was getting from them with my energy level. I also got quite sick with a stomach flu and then what looked like a mild flu afterwards, feeling lousy for 10 days, and missing 2 days of work. This is not all that unusual for me even pre-HIV. Those supplements are no miracle cure, as much as I wish they were. The last few days I have been very sleepy also, and I'm not really sure why. I haven't been hitting the gym in a week which is not so good. I had been going about 2x per week for over 2 months which is a pretty good accomplishment for someone who hates the gym so much.

I have cut down a little bit on supplement (I don't need huge doses of D anymore for example) and I haven't renewed some of the ones I am running out of. I have 6 mega weekly pill boxes, enough for morning and evening for 3 weeks, that I refill every 3 weeks from about 30+ bottles. I am running out of some of the ingredients and debating which ones to reorder or not. I am not sure if I will go to the actual Kpax or not. For some of the common vitamins/minerals - like C, E, calcium, central multi, I have some very long-term supplies due to big bottles I got at costco to be able to beat the daily kpax cost. I don't really want to see them go to waste . So I may just proceed by elimination and run out of some supplements progressively, and see if I start missing them.

FYI, I spent a lot of time yesterday researching supplements again since it was time for some refills. As I learned more about them, I decided to only purchase either USP or GMP certified supplements. A lot of the cheaper ones I had purchased were not. I only had about 30% of USP/GMP supplements, which I guess is better than the 20% average on the market. I'm happy to say that most of the ones from Costco (Nature made brand) are good, though, it's the ones I bought online that were not for the main part.

I used Kpax single strength as the basic formula to benchmark against, which costs about $2.5 per day. John Kaiser recommends single strength for individuals up to 120 lbs, and double strength for above, which costs $5 per day ! I am 150 lbs. But I have looked up the tolerability levels for many things in Kpax on medline, and I would not be very comfortable taking the double strength for reasons other than the prohibitive cost.

The centrum multivitamin that my doctor had recommended costs under 6 cents/day at costco, has many of the same ingredients as Kpax, about 70% in common, but not in the appropriate quantities. And it's missing many others. This is why my previous Kpax equivalent combo was made of 24 different pills/caps. I was also surprised to see no mention of USP testing or GMP compliance for Centrum, either on the bottle or on the manufacturer's web site.

I came up with a new equivalent combo that is made of only 9 different products that can all be ordered from iherb.com (I have no association with them, and I have never even ordered from them yet) :

- Now foods Adam superior men's multi . This seems to be a very potent multi. It is 2 tablets each day. The daily cost comes to 32.29 cents.It has 200mcg selenium in its most bioavailable form, which is the right dose recommended in the selenium study, so there is no need to take a separate selenium supplement.- Now foods vitamin B6 50 mg tablets . Daily cost of 2.4 cents. This brings the total B6 to 75 mg, close to the Kpax 100 mg, which some say is a little bit much.- Now foods ester-C 500 mg capsules. Daily cost 7.4 cents. This brings the total vitamin C to 850mg, close to the Kpax 1000 mg. My doctor says I only need 500 mg anyway. And since I have a very sensitive stomach, I prefer ester-c to regular C.- Now foods vitamin B12 1000 mg lozenges. Daily cost 7.25 cents. This brings the B12 daily total to the same 1250mg as KPax.- Now foods N-acetyl cysteine 600mg capsules - same as Kpax. Daily cost of 7.89 cents. - Doctor's best acetyl l-carnitine 500 mg capsules - same as Kpax. Daily cost of 11.37 cents.- Natural factors alpha lipoic acid 200 mg caps - same as kpax. Daily cost of 15.32 cents.- Now foods l-glutamine 500 mg caps. This is actually 300mg more than kpax. I couldn't find anything in 200 mg in a decent brand that was competitive. Hopefully this dose is stilll OK. This comes to 5.71 cents per day.- Now foods vitamin E 200 IU gels. To match the 400 IU in kpax. Comes to 3.87 cents/day.

Note the prices I posted above are all inclusive of the 8.25% of california sales tax I have to pay, but not of the shipping. And I sometimes picked large quantities to achieve that daily cost. The combo comes to 93.5 cents/day for me, a whole lot better than the $2.52 for kpax (which is also inclusive of California taxes, since K-pax inc is in California ...). Iherb gives shipping discounts based on quantities which can be greater than the shipping cost, and if you are out-of-state and don't pay CA sales tax, it will cost even less. So that combo will for sure be under $1/day. And it is only 2 more pills/caps to take daily than K-pax, for less than 40% of the cost.

My previous kpax equivalent combo came to about $1.75/day and 24 separate pills caps, and made of lower quality ingredients, so this is a whole lot better, easier to take, and cheaper. I will be transitioning to the new combo above over time. I am trying not to waste too many of the lower quality separate ingredients I have left over. The key in the new combo seems to be the more potent multi from Now. I will definitely not be opening the next bottle of centrum I have left.

I have also been taking a few other supplements that weren't in K-pax : omega-3 (for a long time, for mood since I'm bipolar), green tea (recently added, good antioxidant and I like the quick caffeine boost), coq10, probiotics, garlic, calcium, vitamin D, enzymes.

I am definitely going to cut out the coq10 when I run out, because even Kaiser says it doesn't have proven benefits and he was able to formulate Kpax without it to cut costs. I had purchased a discount store brand of coq10 that wasn't GMP/USP certified which was affordable enough, but the quality coq10 supplements are just priced out of this world.

I am cutting down on the vitamin D as well since I no longer have a deficiency - just taking a lower dose now.

The probiotics I had been taking haven't really been working out too well for me. It was a store brand (NSI probiotics 15-35), but still not cheap. I have run out and am looking for a better one.

Just my 2 cents, but my doc also feels Kpax isn't worth the expense. My bf and I take a mega-multi, which claims to include some micro-nutrients, an extra 'anti-oxidant' multi, mostly for the selenium, which many people do seem to think helps, plus an acidopholus (sp!) for the intestinal tract. I am concerned about the above comments on calcium - is this a big issue I should worry about?

Not sure. My doc recommends taking about 1g of calcium a day, and I don't have any particular issues with bones. I'm taking it because I had to take extra vitamin D and they go hand in hand. Best to ask your doc about your particular situation.

I seem to remember a discussion either here or in the old forums about calcium helping with hiv-related diarrhea. You might be able to find it (if it was here and not the old forum) by running a search on calcium.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts