Where Irwin and I live there are huge flocks of wild lorikeets (no toos, although 70 Km down the coast they are more common) and they certainly do seem to bite each other

I always see them nipping and biting and bickering over who gets to sit where, who gets to perch next to who, who gets to eat what flower, who's standing on my tail, <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> ok I'm guessing on that one!

it's unlikely that they do each other any real damage as I don't see an maimed lories flying around, but I sure wouldn't go sticking my hand in between two birds having a "disagreement" so at least in my experience birds do bite in the wild. Probably to communicate a thought/feeling like "move off my perch, get away from my mate, food etc" but they probably aren't biting with the specific intent to cause serious bodily injury to each other, and since they don't generally (in my limited experience cause serious bodily injury) to the bird on the receiving end, it must respond appropriately.. perhaps bites to humans causing real damage is the result of a natural behavior in an unnatural context?

Some time ago, Jerry posed the question about birds and women during their time of the month, and it was surprising, or maybe not surprising how many women said that birds behaviors changed during their time of the month, and those of us who don't have to deal with that issue any longer, stated, that their birds didn't change their behavior any longer. I have known several women who have become pregnant and have seen huge and undesired changes in their birds....just throwing this tidbit of information in for Jay.

I think the whole time of month thing and their birds can be very true. Because I believe birds can sense where you are at and can sense your moods very good (Like when my feather child can sense it was me not anyone else walking through the door and can sense my woods very good). So if they sense their is something wrong with you, or feel your pain they may become grouchy or act somewhat or even exactly like their human companions and even think the same or even become jealous for one thing or another. Only my thoughts..

Yes there is something wrong. For instance, our bird was hybrid (U2/M2) for greed, and lives a life in captivity where she cannot take her life journey as Nature intended!

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Some may say I'm lucky, I think its love and respect. I don't bite them so they don't bite me...

Hmmmm, how many people here have bitten their birds? Again, this makes it sound like you're saying that if our birds bite us, we don't respect and love them. Maybe it's not what you meant to say...? I certainly love Baby - BELIEVE that! And I most certainly respect her! Still she attacks.

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I don't back them in a corner or put them in any position where they feel traped.

Again, birds who attack are not backed into a corner or "trapped"... (unless you count being "trapped" in captivity.) If there is someone backed into a corner or trapped, it's usually me... and I don't bite.

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All of them are flighted, and fly when the need arises. At nite they have a room where they all sleep in cages.

Same here. So your point is...?

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Other then that they are free to go where they want. They haven't chewed or distroyed any thing, no chewing on blinds or wood work, walls or doors.

That sure is a long time to have so many birds, and have just ONE bird bite, and not ANY damage within the house. Especially since they're flighted and can roam free as much as they want to! It's really hard to believe. You sure you're not pulling our legs??

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lucky or good, you decide.

Multiple birds. Multiple years. No damage to the household despite free roam. NO bites but the one necessary one. What DO they put in the drinking water there? You should bottle it up, because we would all want to try it. Sounds like a utopia.

Lynne

If you must cripple a creatureto keep it, perhaps you shouldreconsider its suitability as a pet.

... maybe you put to much restrictions on them or try to stay to much in their life, and she doesn't respect you, it has to go both ways.

No, not the case at all. Baby's frustration is based on not getting what she wants, which is to have baby Cockatoos with my husband. She craves attention, but we encourage our birds to be birds and to be independent as they can be.

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I know what my birds like or dilike and I don't do any thing they don't like. If they need a vet visit I don't put them in a box carrier, they have their own seat in the car and I carry them in on my arm

We don't force our birds into unhappy situations either. I can't even imagine doing something like that unless they were in dire straights, needing medical attention, so I can't understand the basis of that statement.

I do have to say that it is very dangerous, and you're taking a big risk by not properly securing your birds while in transit. It's not responsible to present that to others who read here as something that is "okay" to do.

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I have spent a lot of hours training them, as a dog, if you let it mess on your floor it will always mess on your floor.

First, we cannot compare birds to dogs because they are vastly different and more complex than dogs. We make sure our birds' usual roosting spots are set up (covered or easily cleaned) for that sort of thing so they can do what comes naturally. When being handled, if you pay attention to their body language, you have ample time to get them over something (can, piece of paper) so they don't hit an "undesired area".

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If there stand or cage is against a wall and you approch from the front you have them in a corner and don'r realize it. Alot of people say they get a bite when the bird is on the cage, my stands and playgrounds are all away from walls in a open area, so when I go past or near they are not boxed in, they can go in any direction if the feel the need.

When you get attacked just for entering - or being present in - a room, and the birds are flighted, it's not a matter of a bird feeling boxed in.

I get frustrated when people try to give the idea that there are curealls. Sometimes thing work, but not always. People should be aware of that, and not be made to ignore the reality. Reality is that these birds were not created to live in our homes, and we humans can NOT provide for them anything even CLOSE to what their true needs are. We can only do our best to make them as comfortable (happy) as possible in what is an impossible situation for them.

Look, it's not always a matter of misunderstanding or lack of effort or love or care. It is the circumstance of captivity, and the confusion of maturity while existing in an unnatural environment. Sometimes distractions are enough to diminish aggressive behavior, but sometimes Nature cannot be squelched.

Lynne

If you must cripple a creatureto keep it, perhaps you shouldreconsider its suitability as a pet.

Hi all - I'm new here and have a question about a particular biting situation I have.

My new M2 Raja is the sweetest thing on earth, but he will attack me when I try and hand him a toy sometimes. It will be a toy that he has played with and has dropped on the floor. The first time this happened I went and picked up the toy and went to place it back on the top of the cage, and that's when he charged from the other side of the cage and attacked my hand. He seems to try and do this every time I either hand him back the toy, or just place it back on top of the cage.

Keep in mind I have only had him for just about 2 weeks now, so it could be that he just doesn't trust me at all yet. I'm hoping that's the case, or he's just hormonal. I was told he's only 3 years old, and I am the second care taker for Raja.

For now I just toss the toys on the top of the cage from a short distance - just far enough away so he can't reach my hand. He's trained me well to do this trick for him - lol!

You're still just getting to know one another, and trust takes time to build. It's tough to say without witnessing the behavior described in person, but it sounds like playful interaction. (We call the game "reverse fetch" or "Too Toss".) But sometimes Toos work themselves up with so much funtime. (Get "over-amped".)

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For now I just toss the toys on the top of the cage from a short distance - just far enough away so he can't reach my hand. He's trained me well to do this trick for him - lol!

You learn fast, grasshopper, lol!

Lynne

If you must cripple a creatureto keep it, perhaps you shouldreconsider its suitability as a pet.

Heck, with a beak like that - he swings it open and I ask him how high I need to jump to keep it away from me - and I thought my CAG's could bite <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />

He's so incredibly sweet. I'm amazed at how friendly he is, following me all over asking to be picked up, then shoving his head under my hand. My dog isn't this friendly. It took me over a year to get my one CAG to let me pet her like this. Raja was like this right from the pet shop.

Then again, my CAG's can't even come close to the decibels that Raja can create. I'm glad the houses here are far apart -

Jimmyjames, I am also very lucky in that neither my BFA or my U2 have ever bitten me. I have only had Cassie for about 6 months now, but I had my Amazon for about 9 years. However, if curing biting were a simple matter of set-up of the environment and training I don't think this topic would be so popular <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> ! It's great that you've been so lucky, and I'm sure you have learned many training techniques over the years with your flock, but I think you might be being a little hard on Lynne.

I don't know either of you, but I KNOW sometimes birds just attack. My BFA couldn't fly, never bit me in 9 years of cage cleaning, grooming, range of motion on his wing, etc. -and I never towelled him either; BUT if my brother-in-law was in the house Ollie would climb down from his cage and RUN after him to attack. He didn't like men, but never tried to attack anyone else.

I doubt there is much Lynne wouldn't, or hasn't , tried and it's unfair to imply that people are doing something "wrong" if their birds bite. It's also unfair to let people who are thinking about getting a 'too (or any bird for that matter) think that biting doesn't happen. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to offend you -just voicing my opinion on the matter !

~ Nikki

The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience. -Leo Tolstoy

Hellobaby is right. Most of the time I've been bitten, it's from playing with my U2 and she gets over-amped and nails my hand.

I think a fair amount of the time she doesn't realize it's my hand until after I yelp. Toos seem to have a much greater visual acuity than we humans, but their perception of what they see is way different. I think a lot of the time when my hand is holding the toy, she can't distinguish exactly where the toy ends, and "I' begin. Since she can bite the toy with no consequences, she's surprised when one of her bites suddenly causes me pain.

Sometimes, I also think she bites me out of the tiny evil pleasure of "yanking my chain." The other day she was in my lap and just suddenly reached over and bit my hand (which was just laying in my lap). She didn't bite hard enough to draw blood (which she could easily do), and after I yelped, she got this sheepish little look and said "Hi There!"

it's unfair to imply that people are doing something "wrong" if their birds bite. It's also unfair to let people who are thinking about getting a 'too (or any bird for that matter) think that biting doesn't happen.

And that takes us right back to where this thread started. As I said earlier, each bird is an individual - "A Study of One" and the reasons why a bird bites (or doesn't) cannot be painted with a single, broad brush.

Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Im also in agreement that some birds are just going to bite no matter what. I have angelina, my cockatoo, who bit my husband three years ago when we first got her and has not bit since and my cag, charlie that I took in from a neighbor, who had his house foreclosed on and couldnt keep him. I had one bite, the very first day, totally my fault, I reached into his carrier, instead of opening the top and letting him out, so all he saw was a strange hand coming at him. By the way, in all my macaw bites, so far, the african grey numbed my finger for two days. But with the macaw, I do all the same things that I do with ther other birds: respect her space, give her lots of attention, good food and the ability to fly, even though she doesnt do that very well. I watch her body language and I know many times not to pick her up, but sometimes she is just sitting there, totally content or so it seems and will just latch on. Maybe I am doing something wrong, lord knows half of my posts about vada have been about this topic, but then again Im starting to believe this is just her personality. I have totally accepted this is the way she is and I think in the long run, its better for me to think this way. Im the only one who will handle her and now that I accept she is a nippy bird, Im able to handle her without my feelings getting hurt, because when I thought it was something I was doing wrong, I took every bite personally, as if I made her so unhappy, she had to bite me

I just tucked Nadia in for the night,and read this thread again.I think we're up against a bit of a paradox regarding this topic and the mission of this site.

I have to deal with this almost every day.Trying to explain to the people cooing and fawning over my little Bird Ambassador,The 'PERFECT'Angel,that there is a Dark Side to the Force.Or I hear a young voice behind me"Oh Mommy! I want one!".That begins the lecture on The World according to Mytoos.Don't get me wrong.I believe very strongly in the Mytoos Mission,and even though I am blessed with a stable,friendly bird,Cockatoos in private captivity should be stopped and breeding should be outlawed.Anything that helps is fair game.I'm not above using propaganda to help the cause.Truisms,if not Gospel,work.I've said it a million times.'KEEP A TOO GET A BITE!'It could as easily be Any Bird.

So,this thread is fascinating,in that the topic heading,implys that it is bad husbandry that causes birds to bite.And that the desired state is a world of non biting birds.IMHO,I am EXTREMELY skeptical of that premise,and I for one,would NOT want to train,or condition out biting behaviour.If we insist in living with wild animals,we should at least respect their wildness.

After reading the responses here,and what my own[albeit limited]experience tells me,those very few who claim that their birds never bite,I am so skeptical of that reality,that my first instincts are to think there is something wrong with those birds.In any event,those keepers are in a very small minority,and I think we can safely assume that we can and should continue to promote the 'biting' too.And lastly,I am troubled by the evangelical tone of the online salesmen promoting the 'cure'for the bad keeper,and if you are 'at fault'this is the way.IMHO from reading most posts on this site,I believe that most of the birds talked about here,are generally'normal'concerning 'biting' issues.Nips,bites,occasional serious chomps and outright attacks.Normal Cockatoos.However,not Normal Keepers.This site seems to attract some of the most dedicated,informed.caring,and experienced too keepers any where.

Okey dokey, heres my view on the matter (im on my way to an exam so excuse me if im repeating what others have said-i havent read all the posts!)I think that birds should bite. I like seeing displaying cockatoos getting overly excited and chomping on some unsupecting toy that got in the way, they are exhibiting wild territorial defensive behaviour and I encourage natural behaviours like sleeping patterns, showering and foraging.

I know of course that this environment is insuffiecient to mimic their wild habitat, but just because they arent in the wild is not enough for me to want to 'train out' any behaviours, and quite frankly, the idea of training out an innate behaviour is upsetting to me. Quite simply, I like birds, and want birds to be as birdy as they can be within captivity (and within reason re:my own safety lol).

Of course im talking about theraputic biting, when birds want to communicate. I would never back perry into the corner (unless i had to give him meds) and besides he wouldnt bite me, but hes really not a 'normal' too (i.e hes still a bit scared of me, but im not going to explain all that complicated history on this thread).What I dont condone however, is fear biting. If your too is aggressive, then take the proper precautions and dont handle him etc. If he is on the rampage, take cover, let him get it out of his system for the moment etc. Repetition biting is the real problem and behavioural training should be taken for this accordingly.

Finally, I do not think posters here wear their scars as badges of honour, i think this was flippant. When we are bitten, we have to learn from it. Why did it happen? Could it have been prevented? Is it a problem bite? etc. Those scars remind us what we have learnt and show our dedication to helping these desperate captured birds that we have forced to live with us.

They bite us because we have them in captivity, as long as you keep parrots in captivity they will treat you as any other bird and bite you. Although wild birds are different from captive bred, they have the same urges and desires as their wild counterparts, except with the added confusion of not knowing what they are supposed to be- the stories ive read on this site are testament to that!

It is our fault, but not through bad handling or misunderstanding, they are parrots, and their wildness will continue whether we are in their lives or not.