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00:27:06 *Xach* feels the excitement of saturday night lisp hacking!
00:28:24 Mmm. I've just thought of a possibly awesome new project, with a potential user base in the... low teens at best?
00:28:57 when you've tasted dozens of users like me it's hard to go back
00:29:14 nyef: do tell
00:29:32 fe[nl]ix: I did. In #sbcl.
00:30:41 Basically, it's a tool for checking for evidence of one specific problem that we encounter in maintaining SBCL.
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00:32:17 Uppity users?
00:32:28 VOP parameter lifetimes.
00:32:43 Uppity users are typically fairly obvious.
00:33:34 VOP parameter lifetimes are more of a "why on earth is this dying during cold init somewhere under INTEGER-DECODE-SINGLE-FLOAT?
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01:54:55 What's the current "done thing" in terms of CL test frameworks?
01:55:00 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau
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01:56:05 My own research says that FiveAM is too early to get started on anything, and that while Stefil has some interesting ideas it should be mined for ideas, not used.
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01:56:56 (I can't use the framework that I defined for the (symbol-value '*dayjob*) for various reasons.)
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02:01:37 VOP?
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02:02:58 "Virtual OPeration".
02:03:45 It's basically a small fragment of the compiler that knows how to encode a specific operation as assembly language code.
02:04:12 wow. google didn't get a hit on that, at least not on the first page.
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02:04:22 ah.
02:05:10 https://www.google.com/#q=sbcl+vop shows a couple of good hints within the first page of results.
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02:06:40 Heh. "multiple-value-blog1".
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02:10:45 if i have a list of lists, where each sublist is of the form (number letter) (e.g., ((1 X)(2 Y)(5 W))), how can i search the list for a specific sublist (.e.g, (1 X))?
02:11:06 (find '(1 Y) '((1 Y)(2 W)(1 X))) doesn't work
02:11:10 :test #'equal
02:12:12 Bike: what function would that :test be in?
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02:13:55 yates: X is not a letter. It is a symbol.
02:14:09 s/letter/symbol/
02:14:17 letters are characters. In CL, literal characters can be read using the following syntax #\x
02:14:41 FIND is good with :test.
02:14:56 Any other sequence function, as you wish or need, take a :test.
02:15:09 Perhaps you could browse the clhs?
02:15:23 i am
02:15:29 yates: find
02:15:58 right. i missed it - sorry
02:18:22 So... no advice on test frameworks?
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02:31:37 nyef: when I needed to test a package, I wrote my own simple test framework.
02:32:13 Basically, I just write (defun test/something () (assert (something)) :success) (defun test () (test/something) (test/something2) (test/somethingN)) (test).
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02:35:10 nyef: pjb's pretty right, but if you really need a testing framework with all the bells and fixtures (ah, the punniness!) then there's FiveAM
02:36:32 Fair enough. I wrote my own setup for the $dayjob, but I don't want to rip that one off for my personal work at this time.
02:41:25 These days I'm finding that I tend to think in terms of small, testable pieces of functionality that can be composed into actually useful behaviors, whereas before I'd have just started hacking to get the result that I wanted. I'm not sure if it's entirely an improvement, but in some circumstances having a good test suite is massively helpful.
02:42:06 You should probably use a framework
02:43:31 bitwize: Isn't that what I just said?
02:45:04 On the other hand, I don't want to WRITE another framework at this point.
02:45:23 I might just use SB-RT again for lack of any better suggestions.
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02:55:26 Test frameworks may be more useful in cases such as eg. an Android application development, because of all the constraints you have on it: the rigidity of developing with Java and a big system framework, the fact that you're actually doing cross development (running code in an emulator on on the device), the fact that you basically need a sophisticated IDE to do the simpliest thing because everything is so complicated, and so on.
02:56:04 But unless you're developing at ITA software or at Allegro, I'm not sure you need anything fancy to test your lisp programs.
02:56:22 I recently walked a similar road and feel at least a litle silly for writing my own regression testing functions. The one cool thing I've been playing with that I didn't notice in the published offerings is a function which can watch the directory of the project and automatically run the tests in a background thread when I save a file.
02:56:34 probably also depends on what you are working on, some code has lots of external constraints to test regardless of language
02:56:47 I'm not saying that you don't need to write tests.
02:57:04 ah, 'framework' part you mean?
02:57:16 But also in my experience, the way you program tests often has to go outside of any framework, given what system you have to test.
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02:57:30 having things be automatic has value
02:57:48 For example, I am still to see a framework that could handle the end-to-end MTA/antivirus filter testing I had to do when I worked on antivir.
02:58:05 So I just programmed it in emacs lisp (it was before I switched 100% to CL).
02:59:01 I would advocate ad-hoc testing, because in general, I don't always write the same program.
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03:07:51 So, in general, alter your testing strategy to suit the program that you're writing?
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03:08:03 Yes.
03:09:22 For example, in some case, generating more or less exhaustive test data becomes an important of writing the tests. Often test frameworks lead you to duplicate testing code (one testXyz method per test), when you would rather just iterate generated data.
03:11:21 Mmm. But we have a full programming environment available to write our tests in, and one which has MACROLET, so we can generate however many testXyz methods/functions we want from a vector of test data.
03:11:34 (Or DEFMACRO, if you want to go that route.)
03:14:00 And then there's the difference between end-to-end tests which make sure that the system-as-a-whole behaves as desired and the micro-tests which make sure that individual functions behave as desired when plied with specific inputs.
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03:22:05 I guess I'll do things interactively for now, since my immediate goal is supposedly a one-off.
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04:14:31 so, I'm am reading data from a serial device but I will not know when or how many bytes I will receive at any given time. Any thoughts on whether I should use read-byte or read-sequence?
04:15:56 read sequence will wait until the given sequence is filled (I haven't discovered out to force it to return early) so that's why I ask
04:16:36 and I want the data as soon as it's available
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04:28:59 you apparently can't use format to output a simple string - what is approriate?
04:29:10 i.e., (format "~S" "test") doesn't work
04:29:43 just "test" ???
04:30:48 yates: are you trying to get a hello world with format working?
04:31:26 well, i'm trying to put out a simple test message at a ceratin point in a function
04:31:34 (format t "~S" "test") (format output-stream "~S" "test") (format nil "~S" "test")
04:31:41 yates: a good idea would be to read clhs
04:31:43 clhs format
04:31:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
04:32:13 pjb: i AM reading it.
04:32:23 Good :-)
04:32:28 being imperfect, i miss things, forget things, etc.
04:32:45 Of course, it's a 1150-page book, you need to read it several times to remember it :-)
04:32:47 i keep forgetting that destination argument
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04:32:56 in format, i.e.
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04:35:45 pjb: yes, i'll try to finish it tonight...
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04:44:17 i have a list of lists of the form, e.g., ((1 (1 x)(3 y))(2 (4 w))...)
04:45:44 scratch that
04:46:05 i have a list of lists of the form, e.g., (1 (1 x)(3 y))
04:46:36 how would i determine if a list (1 x) is in that list, and if so, increment the first element in the list
04:46:36 ?
04:46:50 in-place?
04:46:56 i.e., incf-ish
04:47:32 doh
04:47:33 (let ((found (find '(1 x) lists :test #'equal))) (when found (incf (first found))))
04:47:33 nm
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04:49:16 Bike: wouldn't that produce (2 x)?
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04:49:49 it would return that, yes, but aren't you calling this for effect.
04:50:10 i would want (1 (1 x)(3 y)) to be translated to (2 (1 x)(3 y))
04:50:43 ok, i see now.
04:50:56 it helps to just ask the question - now i see how to do it
04:51:20 wait, no i don't see how to do it...
04:51:24 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-138-146.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp
04:51:32 Good morning everyone!
04:51:43 Hello beach.
04:51:44 well, map what i wrote ovre the elements of the list or something
04:51:58 (not morning here for about eight more minutes.)
04:52:35 nyef: I agree with pjb. A test framework gives little help, and I find myself often having to do tests that are not supported in whatever framework I pick.
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04:54:36 One of my favorite testing strategies for some data structures is to write a trivial but slow implementation of the operations, then generate random sequences of operations and compare the two results.
04:55:43 But this might be a call for a more extensible standard framework than a call for not using a standard framework.
04:55:44 Combined with a coverage test, such a testing strategy is very effective and not terribly hard to accomplish. But it is not supported in the frameworks I have looked at.
04:56:11 nyef: Sure, if you can figure out how to do such a thing, great!
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05:00:29 And there's also the question of testing style vs. testing framework. A random testing approach is typically used to find defects after something has been built, while a test-driven development approach is used to define how the right thing behaves (at a low level) and then to implement it.
05:00:45 Two rather different processes.
05:01:32 Looks right.
05:01:53 The second one is not a unit test.
05:02:11 -!- christie is now known as kristof
05:02:20 I'd argue that the second one IS a unit test, and the first one is more questionable.
05:02:29 Hmm.
05:02:38 Unit tests are an inherent part of tdd.
05:02:58 The first one needs to be rewritten when the unit is implemented differently, but the second one should not have to.
05:03:37 The random tester approach is a statistical thing.
05:03:43 I must have a different idea of what "unit test" means.
05:03:54 beach: The second one needs to be rewritten, if the unit extensionally changes.
05:04:02 Both approaches can be behavioral...
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05:04:53 Interesting questions. The difficulties probably give a hint as to why it is hard to come up with a general testing framework.
05:05:02 One of the questions here is "when is a test a unit test, and when is it not?", which ties into the question of "what are the boundaries of a ``unit''".
05:05:17 Indeed.
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05:09:01 A goodly portion of my current testing approach involves rewriting the FDEFINITIONs of various function names with temporary versions that check arguments and supply fixed results, and verifying that the object under test (typically a single function) behaves "correctly".
05:09:15 bitwize: Explain what you mean by "extensionally changes", please!
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05:10:09 And this is because I don't have any other good mechanism for dependency injection of mock objects in what is primarily an imperative-functional paradigm.
05:10:29 nyef: Sounds like a good idea.
05:11:10 It is, and it isn't. Remember that functions within the same compilation unit are permitted an awful lot of leeway in terms of referring to each other.
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05:12:13 And my current mechanism turns out to be too low-level in the presence of multiple calls. I end up with "recursive" mock functions (they end up replacing themselves with a successor mock).
05:12:18 Heh, yes, there are some interesting traps to fall into there.
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05:13:04 So, my current approach was awesome for about a year to a year and a half, and then I finally ran into a case where it broke down.
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05:26:15 One of the main things about testing, though, is automation. If your tests aren't automated then you're going to forget to run some of them, decide not to run some of them, or misinterpret the results of some of them.
05:27:00 Indeed.
05:28:58 And the quicker your test suite runs, the better. Ideally, you should be able to run it at each commit and not even notice the time loss unless a test fails... in which case your commit can reasonably be argued to be broken anyway.
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05:38:44 are parameters passed by reference or by value in cl?
05:39:32 nm
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05:39:42 probably not relevent, now that i look at it again.
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05:43:42 They're passed by value, but a great number of values are references.
05:44:15 (That is, a great number of values are references to mutable structures.)
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06:00:55 I believe that I have exceeded my runtime for tonight.
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06:20:32 is it true that the argument to a predicate function provided to position-if will be filled with each item in the list the position-if is being run against?
06:20:48 iteratively, i.e.
06:21:57 yates, What? Are you asking if the function will be called on each element?
06:22:21 yes
06:22:30 s/item/element/
06:22:45 It will call it until it finds one.
06:22:59 gotcha
06:23:14 yates: Are you a beginner programmer?
06:26:00 not really
06:26:20 beginner in lisp, yeah, i guess.
06:26:43 beach: why?
06:27:07 yates: In what programming language that you already know does one use the terminology that a "function is filled with" an object?
06:27:58 are we that tight-assed here that a wee bit of colloqualism isn't tolerated?
06:28:11 was my meaning unclear?
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06:28:47 well, yes.
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06:28:59 a colloquialism is something that is colloquially understood, and all
06:29:02 and i didn't say that a function was filled with an object.
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10:31:12 since when is sb-bsd-sockets a dependency of clx ?
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11:39:55 am testing the 0.9.6 version of mcclim against the same behaviour regarding the string widths w/o spaces
11:40:07 there it is correct....
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11:40:33 you've been already told that you're using proportional fonts
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12:57:04 G'morning all.
12:57:19 Hello there.
12:58:41 I'm considering learning common lisp
12:59:02 I think I need to understand more about what it is before confirming though
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12:59:37 it's a general purpose interactive language
12:59:42 ... Would you say the same if you were considering learning knitting?
12:59:54 Just learn it, and see how it goes. It's not that hard to grok the basics
13:00:31 That's what I meant
13:00:38 I need to learn the basics before deciding to go into it fully
13:00:45 Besides, if you're a programmer, you should always be learning new languages. There shouldn't be much hesitation to start learning something new
13:00:50 Can I knit a standalone binary?
13:01:11 Twipply: what is your current programming experience?
13:01:16 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq
13:01:20 Xach: I'm sure you can find some encoding and cobble up a reader for scarf storage
13:01:22 I've played with C for ~10 years as a hobby
13:01:29 Xach: only with needles still attached
13:01:30 Xach: Sure, do you want to use textured or two-color integer representation?
13:01:41 At most I'd consider myself intermediate, but that's pushing it.
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13:03:20 I wanted something 'different' to C in style/application maybe
13:03:34 I wouldn't want to put a bunch of time into C++ for example
13:04:03 Lisp is somewhat more similar to C in terms of functions & how they're called, albeit much more powerful. To get more out there, there's also Prolog, Haskell, Erlang, etc
13:04:18 which have pretty different base assumptions
13:04:30 If you just want 'different', have a quick look into Forth, Smalltalk, Prolog, Ocaml, Haskell, and... Intercal.
13:04:35 but knowing C would be a good launching point for learning Lisp
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13:05:13 I don't need something that's a total polar opposite
13:05:22 minion: Tell Twipply about PCL
13:05:22 Twipply: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
13:05:22 But I'll look at those, too.
13:05:50 Twipply: also, look at "a gentle introduction to symbolic computing" by D. Touretzky
13:06:02 Oh, and learn the assembly language for whatever machine you have.
13:06:04 I've been reading that one already.
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13:06:10 I've tried assembly before
13:06:14 or buy the book 'Land of Lisp', which is a gentle introduction to Common Lisp using game programming
13:06:19 Twipply: the touretzky one?
13:06:31 By Peter Seibel
13:06:42 Encountered it while googling
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13:08:38 One thing I was wondering and haven't yet googled, is why Lisp seems to be popular among AI research?
13:08:45 I'm pretty sure I read that, at least.
13:09:02 Because it was originally invented by AI researchers.
13:09:07 that dates back to the 1950s. The inventor of Lisp was an AI researcher
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13:09:21 That's what I was thinking
13:09:31 So there's no 'real' advantage to Lisp in that regard?
13:09:55 The advantage is that it can very easily deal with lists and trees of data, which was unprecedented at the time
13:10:03 i think Java is popular for AI researcher
13:10:06 research
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13:10:42 and that it is dirt simple for Lisp to generate Lisp code, for simple macro use or even as full-blown code generators
13:10:42 I've an interest in neural networks, so perhaps that'll be nice
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13:11:31 NNs aren't much of a programming challenge, though. They're more a data challenge
13:11:45 Whatever language you use, grab a NN library and start configuring & throwing data into it
13:12:07 doesn't necessarily involve too mnay language decisions, besides the tail end where you have to integrate the data somewhere with something
13:12:21 I've made my own NNs before
13:12:25 I have a small aversion to third party libraries
13:12:41 I'd like to make my own wheel than use someone elses
13:12:43 well, Lisp is certainly about roll-your-own
13:12:48 even if I'm less productive in doing so
13:13:56 in fact, one complaint that people have about the Common Lisp ecosystem is that some of the libraries are kind of poor, simply because roll-your-own is often easier than putting out a decent library ;)
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13:14:33 (though there are a lot of good, mature libs out there nowadays)
13:14:50 That's why I'm looking into CL instead of scheme
13:16:48 This seems to be harder to set up than C
13:17:08 which OS are you on?
13:17:32 Windows
13:17:39 everything is hard on windows
13:17:40 yeah, that's going to be a bit of a pain
13:17:52 I don't get an impression that it's very windows orientated
13:17:53 basically, you want Emacs, SLIME, and a lisp implementation
13:18:06 SBCL even tells me their windows port is fragile
13:18:21 If you're not doing threading, SBCL is good
13:18:22 sbcl is not lying
13:18:39 its support is recent, so some of the bigger downsides are getting a little out of date
13:18:53 Windows has had address space randomization since day one, pretty much, and SBCL doesn't deal with that too gracefully.
13:19:09 I'd recomment Clozure CL on Windows, if SBCL doesn't work out for you. CCL has been rock solid, just a bit slower.
13:19:26 *recommend
13:19:33 I'm used to downloading an IDE & compiler in one go, then hitting compile & run
13:19:52 ASM was also a pain
13:20:06 yeah, I guess you've not worked in Python or even BASIC or any interactive language
13:20:25 it's a different beast than edit-compile-execute
13:20:30 I also had most success with CCL on windows.
13:20:34 I tried out Python beliefly a few times
13:20:42 I really hate typing code into the... interpreter?
13:20:50 right, that's where emacs & slime come in
13:20:52 So I just used .py files constantly and ran them like that
13:20:58 but I can't seem to use a .lisp file
13:21:08 (load "lispfile.lisp")
13:21:34 I had a certain amount of success with SBCL on windows, but ended up moving back to using Linux for most of my programming. (-:
13:21:39 or, in emacs, Ctrl-C Ctrl-K when your cursor is in a file that you're editing. THat's why SLIME is good
13:21:59 (And, yes, you can blame me for the "kitten of death" message if it's still there.)
13:22:23 it isn't
13:22:27 the kitten of death ist tot
13:22:56 Aww... Poor death-kitten.
13:23:08 I'll have to add it into the ARM port, then. (-:
13:23:08 das kätzchen des todes ist tot!!1!
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13:23:22 I'm going to miss my double clicks
13:23:32 But at least I can use the up arrow to load the last input again
13:24:13 (alt-p and alt-n to go previous/next in history you mean)
13:24:30 you can freely cursor around the REPL buffer
13:24:31 I meant in SBCL I can use the up arrow to get the (load "...") back
13:24:35 rather than retyping it
13:24:43 You're in the terminal window?
13:24:46 Yeah
13:25:08 Yeah, that's fairly standard with the windows console subsystem, but it only lasts within the current session.
13:25:27 (At least, it did on WinXP.)
13:25:28