WTF: Make your own acronym

This Tigers team continues to leave me lost and bewildered. I enjoyed a beautiful day at the park, as I watched the Tigers make 2 boneheaded plays on the bases. Twice today the Tigers hit into double plays, and neither were of the ground ball variety.

Curtis Granderson was half way to third base when Magglio Ordonez’s blast to center was hauled in during the 9th inning. The trouble was there was only one out and Granderson had started on first base.

When the Tigers loaded the bases in the 6th inning (the third time of the day), Marcus Thames hit a liner to third base. Mike Hessman who was on first was caught way off the bag.

That was actually a little karmic for Thames, who was hung off of second base when Brandon Inge hit a liner to second the night before.

People will scream about fundamentals, and rightfully so. But these are professionals who play the game 8 months a year. Most have been playing professionally at least a half dozen years. Of course they know what they should and shouldn’t do. Of course the coaching staff doesn’t coach them to make these mistakes. How does it happen?

I know a popular refrain is that the Tigers have mailed it in. I don’t see it. I see guys hustling and moving as well (or in some cases better) than they have all season. This is a team that didn’t give away at-bats today. They worked 8 walks. They put runners on base late the night before. They posted 13 runs on Monday after coming out of the Metrodome playing a pair of strong games.

But this crap keeps happening and it’s inexplicable. Do you really think that a Curtis Granderson doesn’t care? Do you think he’s someone going through the motions? These guys are showing emotion when they do well and showing frustration when they don’t. And yet they continue to make mistakes.

63 Comments

Sain

September 10, 2008 at 9:55 pm

Boom. Did it to end the game… moments after I read this.

stephen

September 10, 2008 at 10:17 pm

Well, a good place to start is the fact baseball players are not very bright. (Mike Mussina does the USA Today crossword puzzle in the locker room and the NYC media have practically anointed him Thomas Alva Edison). Combine that with the 180 game grind, counting spring training, and being way, way out of it and this crap happens.
But it’s not just the Tigers.I think David Wright is fantastic, but I saw him get thrown out last year at second on a not quite passed ball to end a game. And the Mets were down by 3 or 4 runs! There was no reason for him to go. That base meant literally nothing.
I think that’s why crafty pitchers like Jamie Moyer can last two decades. Most guys do not have an at-bat gameplan so they’re easily duped by Moyer types.
Granderson, hard to figure that one out. But Thames never struck me as a baseball Einstein.

thefume

September 10, 2008 at 11:21 pm

you can’t be thinking and playing at a high level, at least with hitting. it has to be ingrained in you or your reaction time is too slow. even tiger woods, with all the mechanical work he puts in on the range, when he’s playing in a tournament he goes completely by feel, he’s not over-thinking when he hits the ball.

regarding the baserunning, maybe the coaches are telling them they should be more like the twins, and are so focused on getting the extra base they forget about the basics.

or maybe they’re trying too hard.

or maybe stuff happens.

Dave BW

September 10, 2008 at 11:26 pm

I’m not suggesting this is the case, but maybe they’re doing this stuff on purpose to make a point. What point? Who knows.

stephen

September 11, 2008 at 12:19 am

Dave BW: Good point!

Maybe they’re all doing a work slowdown until their demands are met aka fire Chuck Hernandez and release Brandon Inge.

Seriously, it’s time to think about cutting Inge. He’s a crappy catcher and he’s hitting below .220 for the fourth time in eight years. And his ops is wavering near .700 aka Sal Fasano. I know he’s owed 13m, but it’s time to execute a hostage so the rest of the hostages know the guys in the ski masks mean business.

Dombro should admit his mistake and move on. Same with Sheff. Give Sheff to the end of spring training and if he isn’t stroking the ball let him go. It’s like a corporation writing off their losses in the first quarter and firing the board of directors to show the shareholders they’re moving forward. Stock takes an initial hit, but rebounds with the new mean and lean approach.

Eric Cioe

September 11, 2008 at 12:24 am

Maybe they are all just dumb and don’t know the rules very well.

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 12:34 am

Well, I take back what I said about not being able to say the Tigers played badly earlier today (though it surely wasn’t all bad). Gameday doesn’t give you bad baserunning alerts, but maybe I should have known. Why would Hessman be so far off with 2 guys in front of him, and why would speedy Granderson have trouble getting back from (one might have assumed) second base on a long fly that happened to be caught? My bad. I lost focus. It’s a long season.

I don’t hate Inge or even Sheffield, but I’m totally with Stephen on cutting the losses. This team has had most of a season to come together and hasn’t, and I’m not talking about chemistry. I think it’s either/or: Either Leyland goes or a whole lotta players have to go. The former is easier, but – gulp – the latter is probably better.

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 1:01 am

And by the way, this A’s series seems so typical of 2008. Tigers outscore the opponent 18-16 over 3 games and drop 2 – at home, against a team with glaring weaknesses, after an encouraging road trip against a tough opponent. In aggregate, it will look like typically good hitting and typically bad pitching. We’ll remember that Rodney blew the close one, forget that Nate pitched a good one, and totally gloss over – before long – the crucial failures at the plate and on the bases and in the field. Yes, the pitching sucks, but it has company.

billfer

September 11, 2008 at 7:13 am

@stephen

You do realize that Sal Fasano has all of 87 at-bats over the last 2 seasons right? And he’s hit 229/262/344 over that time. I think Inge might be a little better.

As for sending a message, the team didn’t exactly take off after Jacque Jones was cut. And the bullpen didn’t light it up after Jason Grilli was traded. And the starters didn’t start pitching better when Nate Robertson lost his rotation spot.

Pete G

September 11, 2008 at 8:00 am

WTF….Wow Tigers Fail

I remember Bob Cluck saying, as the pitching staff was starting to grow up, “2006 will be the year they come together”. Boy did they ever. Now it has been downhill….er off the cliff, since. Something is wrong with the way this staff is trained, coached, motivated, or mechanically monitored.

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 10:15 am

When the Tigers have scored 3 runs or less, they are 4-51.

When the Tigers have scored 4 runs or more, they are 66-25.

When the Tigers have allowed 6 runs or more, they are 12-40.

When the Tigers have allowed 5 runs or less, they are 58-36.

Note to Tigers: Score 4 runs or more. Allow 5 runs or less. Simultaneously. Work on that for a while. Don’t worry too much about “winning” right away. That’s an advanced concept.

Note to Tigers: Ignore previous note. Just win.

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 1:28 pm

“But Thames never struck me as a baseball Einstein.”

I see Thmaes as more of a baseball Socrates.

EZ

September 11, 2008 at 1:49 pm

WTF:

Whom To Fire: Jim Leyland. He does have the guys playing hard, but the man has been out managed at nearly every turn by nearly every other manager.

WTF:

Whom To Free-agent:

INGE.

If your defense of Inge is to mention Sal Fuzzyhead then you have officially Over Dosed on Inge Glue. The guy completely sucks, and not just for the money he is being paid. No, he sucks at any price. If he were a car Ralph Nader would write a book about him. Cut him. Now. End-O-Debate.

Billfer, of course I know Fasano has only 87 at-bats. If only Inge had only 87 at-bats rather than 800! Fasano is also really funny just to say. Oh and he’s making one fifteenth what Inge makes. If Inge was making 500 grand he would be adequate. But he’s not. Sure, you could keep him around as a 25th man utility guy, but seriously more can be accomplished by dumping Inge and picking up some other guy for 500 grand. Yeah, it cranks up the payroll a half million, but you’re getting rid of a chronic underachiever and someone who has carped about his role before and is likely to do the same if he’s your 25th man.
I know Billfer and everyone says batting avg is overrated, but you can’t carry a guy who hits below .220, has less career hits than strikeouts, and a chronic .313 oba who plays a less than good catcher. Could he be a Tom Brookens like guy for another team? Possibly. But his time is up here. He’s gotta go.

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Now might be a good time to ask: Who plays 3B for the Tigers in 2009? Don’t tell me Guillen.

Andrew in Toronto

September 11, 2008 at 3:00 pm

What about Hessman for 3B? He hitting looks like it has improved and it sounds like he’s got good defense as well?

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 3:04 pm

I like Hessman at 3B. He’s Inge with more power. Don’t tell anyone I said this, but if the Tigers couldn’t get Beltre or someone like him – and maybe they shouldn’t anyway – I would not mind seeing Inge traded, if he can be traded, and then Hessman can have 3B for 2009. Dusty Ryan is already my catcher, and Vance Wilson has promised me he’ll be back as good as new, so I’m all set.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 4:21 pm

stephen: “I know Billfer and everyone says batting avg is overrated, but you can’t carry a guy who hits below .220, has less career hits than strikeouts, and a chronic .313 oba who plays a less than good catcher”

This would seem fairly obvious…on the other hand, one of the frustrating things about the Tigers this season is their inability to do basic things like getting runners home from 3rd with less than 2 outs. The best on the team?

Inge 13AB 16 RBI .538 BA 1.240 OPS 1 K 0 GDP

Compared to that other catcher that used to be here:

Pudge 22 AB 12 RBI .261 BA .747 OPS 8 K 2 GDP

Obviously this isn’t their only problem; they also hit into too many double-plays, make too many errors, etc.

Oh, actually, they guy who hits into DP least frequently–Inge. The guy with fewest errors–Inge.

See the dilemma? INGE IS BEST AT THE THINGS THE TIGERS ARE WORST AT. I’m not sure what to do with that, but there it is.

stephen

September 11, 2008 at 4:40 pm

Well, that proves that Inge strikes out rather than hits into double play. And I’m sure we’d all agree 13 ab’s is a statistically insignificant amount.

Inge plays an excellent 3rd base and hasn’t played enough catcher to make a ton of errors. Again, if he’s getting 150 ab’s, he’s adequate. But he’s not.

How about this? I will put 300 dollars on a tab at a Tigers Stadium watering hole next year for my blog friends if Detroit makes the playoffs with Inge as their regular catcher and he gets 400 plus at-bats.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 4:58 pm

stephen: “Well, that proves that Inge strikes out rather than hits into double play”

He does strike out more than others, a bit.

With runners on base:

Inge K/AB: 1/5.1
DET K/AB: 1/5.5

Double-play rate:

Inge DP/AB: 1/150.5
DET DP/AB: 1/39.2

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 5:07 pm

I take it Coleman wants Inge at 3B in 2009. I could live with that. Actually, maybe Coleman wants Inge at C. I don’t think I want that.

I must press Stephen now to get off the Inge attack and make suggestions for what the Tigers should do about C and 3B in 2009.

Rick G

September 11, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Coleman, in the words of the immortal (really, I think he is) Homer Simpson: “Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true!”

Actually I don’t think Inge is great at catcher. Unless he can do a lot more of that stuff like tricking the ump about what the count is

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 5:18 pm

I myself still haven’t grasped the enormity of the knowledge that with a runner on 3rd < 2 out, based on career performance, Brandon Inge is more likely to get a run home than Miguel Cabrera.

I need a ham sandwich.

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 5:21 pm

“Unless he can do a lot more of that stuff like tricking the ump about what the count is”

Too bad he can’t do more of that when he’s at the plate.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 5:22 pm

I don’t think Inge is a great hitter either. And the fact that he does well at the runner on 3rd thing, doesn’t hit into DP, etc, would seem interesting maybe, but less of a big deal on a different team. It’s just that those are the things, along with the errors, that are so frustrating about this team, so what happens when you get rid of the guy that’s best at those things? See my point?

[The one frustrating thing that the team isn't good at, that Inge is just OK at is baserunning. Well, and all the pitching stuff but that's a different story.]

Smoking Loon: “Too bad he can’t do more of that when he’s at the plate.”

I don’t know that that would really help. Although it would be cool I suppose to be the only player ever to be called out on a checked-swing with a 5-3 count.

Chris in Dallas

September 11, 2008 at 5:25 pm

Lost in the shuffle is the fact that *gasp* Nate Robertson had a fine outing the other day.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 5:30 pm

In case you were wondering, as I did, how Inge can do so well in certain situations and still have such bad overall stats, you only need to look at his stats when bases are empty, which are some of the worst I’ve ever seen. So far this season:

.185 BA .619 OPS 48K/173 AB (thats 1/3.6 AB)

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 5:32 pm

Nate = good. Let’s see if he can keep it up.

To Inge or not to Inge? I say Inge properly. Put him at 3B for his glove and live with his bat or be done with him entirely. That’s my final offer.

David

September 11, 2008 at 5:42 pm

Inge = probably best if not top 10 INFIELDER/OUTFIELDER in the majors

He cannot catch

You don’t give something like that away…

plus in contrast to Shef or anyone else catchers are the one position besides pitchers who are not expected to hit

IMO Joe Mauer is the only star offensive catcher

If Stephen you only want to go by BA which is fine by me I’ll name

Jason Varitek starting catcher for Boston presently hitting .226 with less production(R+RBI-HR) than Inge in more AB

John Buck starting catcher for Kansas City hitting .220

The platoon catchers for the Angels (who just clinched the AL West yesterday)
Jeff Mathis .191
Mike Napoli .218

Kenji Jojima for the Seattle Mariners .208
Jeff Clement .227

For the Blue Jays Rod Barajas .250 and Greg Zaun .227

I could keep going on but the point is, after Mauer there is a huge drop off offensively (ie there aren’t many good offensive catchers they are there for their D)

Pudge was our catcher for most of this year (Inge was a backup player 10th or 11th man until a month ago

If you are relying on your catcher to provide offensive you must have a weak @ss offensive club and are in a sorry state which we aren’t even with all the other suckfests

Facts are with Inge
1) He shouldn’t catch
2) He should be playing shortstop/3rd/2nd/CF ie the most important defensive positions
3) He isn’t going to hit as well as many of you would like, however if he stopped (like Thames/Shef most of the AL trying to pull every GD ball he could hit .287 again)
4) His hitting will be better if he is playing any other position on the field

Sheff on the other hand can’t do crap, I’m sick of him he is our DESIGNATED HITTER LOL

He is a whiner, washed up and living a delusion if he thinks he hasn’t cost this team many games this year either by
a)sucking while hurt
b)sucking while healthy

If I were GM I’d have fired Leyland a long time ago after the team collapsed in 2006, collapsed in 2007, probably will fail to get to .500 with the uber increased payroll

at the worst dumbo should see the 3 strikes and your out

EZ you said it well
“Whom To Fire: Jim Leyland. He does have the guys playing hard, but the man has been out managed at nearly every turn by nearly every other manager.”

Trade Shef for prospects and if you can’t get any just dump him, its better to eat his salary

45Runs and 50RBI with 16HRs

lets see 45+50 = 95-16 =89 Runs accounted for TERRIBLE FOR A DH even divide that by AB and it is one of the lowest if not the lowest on the team

(btw Granderson is the highest with over 300 AB per AB last time I checked)

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 6:09 pm

I don’t know if it’s fair to say Inge can’t catch; he has a good arm, though runners seem to be getting better jumps than they used to. He’s the only guy I’ve seen who can rival Pudge for chasing down pop-ups; he seems to have a passed ball problem; I wonder about his game calling (although consider the pitchers he’s been catching for). So I don’t think he hurts you behind the plate, it’s just he doesn’t give you a big advantage over other teams like he does at 3rd.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 6:19 pm

David makes a good point about catchers’ batting averages; I had noticed the Angels sub-Mendoza platoon–and look who they’re managed by btw.

It should be acknowleded though that Inge isn’t a .220 catcher–his BA as a catcher is about .185.

The glass-is-half-full side of that is that Inge also is not a .220 3rd baseman–his BA as a 3rd baseman is about .245.

stephen

September 11, 2008 at 7:09 pm

Inge’s batting average has dropped significantly every year for the past five. If he’s going to play third, he needs to hit .260-.270 and he hasn’t shown he can do that. If he’s going to be a mediocre defensive catcher, he can’t hit .220. (Varitek may be the best caller of a game so he, at least, excels at something). As far as I can tell, he adds absolutely nothing to the pitching staff as a game caller and precious little as a backstop.
Seriously, that his batting average declines every year, he has proven little defensively as a catcher, AND he’s batting under .220 for the fourth time in eight years it’s remarkable we are even having this debate. He does everything at a less than average rate.

stephen

September 11, 2008 at 7:12 pm

Last point, just because there are other players who suck at certain aspects of the game more than Inge doesn’t mean he’s adequate. Some guys are an ‘A’ at the plate, and a ‘D’ in the field.
Inge is a C minus all across the board.

Dave BW

September 11, 2008 at 7:38 pm

At some point in the 2006 season, Inge ran over stephen’s dog. He loved that dog.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 8:02 pm

stephen: so who are you suggesting play 3rd? and are you really rating Inge as a C- fielder at 3rd? Because that’s just bizarre.

It would be remarkable that we are having this debate, if he truly was below average at everything. But he isn’t, unless “everything” is restricted to batting average related things only.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 8:04 pm

So if you were looking at this year’s performances at 3rd–fielding and hitting–which guy do you pick?

Yes, Inge is an offensive liability, and an average catcher in most categories. The only place where he truly helps the team is with defense at third, so it’s a little beyond my understanding that the team has gone so far out of their way to prevent him from doing that. Plus, based on the past couple of days (small sample size, I know), the Tigers can put a better (or at least as good) catcher on the field by playing Dusty Ryan.

I’m with Loon. Let Inge play third, or find some way to get rid of him.

David

September 11, 2008 at 8:10 pm

Inge is an A+ in the field, … behind the plate he isn’t so good

I have not seen a better third baseman (fielding wise) and I do not think I ever will

His defensive value would be even more important at short

And as I said and Coleman repeated his offense will be better if not behind the dish(although still probably not great/ie up to your or my standards)

I figure you’ve got the guy, your paying him a lot, he could be a whiz at short. IE THE BEST DEFENDER IN THE MLB
Get the most out of your investment!

I doubt they will get rid of him because he is
1) The longest tenured Tiger
2) A fan favorite
3) Can play anywhere (although catcher not that well) and the OF and IF spectacularly
4) The only “European American” everyday position player
5) Is owed some major $$

I also believe that baseball is a very mental game and having Inge defensively as a SS (or third baseman) make spectacular plays is worth quite a bit.

lol Dave BW

David

September 11, 2008 at 8:13 pm

You had a good thing in 2006 with him there and last year, they effed with it and look at how it turned out =P

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it

Started moving Cabrera all over and Guillen all over, meanwhile you’ve got this one guy who IMO held the infield together and he starts out replacing Granderson and then rides the bench

hes here for his glove, crazy range, and superb arm – LET HIM USE IT

its like having Magglio or Cabrera sit because they can only hit

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 8:20 pm

David: “its like having Magglio or Cabrera sit because they can only hit”

But not quite as brilliant as having Sheffield play left because his shoulder hurts.

David

September 11, 2008 at 8:23 pm

Get yourself a so-so veteran hitting catcher in the off season who can call games and handle the staff

put Inge either at third or short depending what you want to do with Rentaria

H3ll this team would be loads better if you put Hessman/Raburn/flavor of the month at 3rd and in LF, kept Maggs and Grandy in the OF, Cabrera at 1st, Poly 2, Inge SS and a veteran quality catcher

and went out on the FA market and got some strong pitchers

ITS DEFENSE AND PITCHING/DEFENSE AND PITCHING/DEFENSE AND PITCHING

David

September 11, 2008 at 8:24 pm

LOL to h3ll with shef, what a waste of space, i find it hard to don the olde english d with him on the team, disgusting as bobo bonds

David

September 11, 2008 at 8:30 pm

Here is the list, pick some guys you like, I don’t know how much Mr. Owner wants to spend (I mean along with pitching you could get some other stuff, but pitching would be my first and second and third priorities)

Thanks for being with me, Angie. Coleman never gives me any dap for the moral support I provide on the Inge issue.

Stephen, Inge will rot in hell for what he did to your dog. Now, please tell us WHO YOU WANT AT C AND 3B INSTEAD so we can all escape the swirling vortex of yet another Ingefest, another thread ingefested with ingetractable arguments. It gives me ingedigestion.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 8:52 pm

Again, it’s hard to think of another 3rd baseman that has a good glove and bat. Adrian Beltre comes to mind, but then you start looking at stats, and what it would cost us, and it doesn’t seem worth it…

Career BA–OBP–SLG–OPS (3rd base)

.272 .327 .460 .787 Beltre
.258 .327 .427 .754 Inge

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 8:55 pm

If Inge ever dyes his goat-beard red though, immediately trade him for a can of beans.

Smoking Loon: “Coleman never gives me any dap for the moral support I provide on the Inge issue.”

My old grandpappy always used to say, never dap a loon.

Besides, I’ve been hoping for a bit of immoral support.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 9:01 pm

We’ll Trade renteria For a ham sandwich, by god.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 9:03 pm

OK, that one was sloppy. This works better:

Whither Thy Fealty?

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 9:15 pm

Winning Through Fear
oh wait, wrong blog.

Whimpering Tigers Fold
What Trivial Folderol!

Smoking Loon

September 11, 2008 at 9:17 pm

Coleman, I don’t maintain that the Tigers should kill themselves going after Beltre. He could turn out to be a milder case of Renteria (dysrentery?). But +.033 OPS over a career isn’t as insignificant as it appears.

Still, if cost is an object, then the big bucks should go, in the first hand, to improving the pitching and eating part or all of a bad contract or two or three.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 9:27 pm

Smoking Loon: “But +.033 OPS over a career isn’t as insignificant as it appears”

True, but still a smaller difference than I expected. Especially considering that the OBP numbers are identical, which means basically Beltre hits more home runs, in a more homer-friendly park.

Coleman

September 11, 2008 at 9:38 pm

Apropos of Little:

.302 .360 .615 .974 17HR 59RBI

That’s Cabrera since the all-star break.

Dave BW

September 11, 2008 at 10:55 pm

btw, I also had a ham sandwich today. It was marvelous, and there’s no way I would have given it up for a baseball player.

ron

September 12, 2008 at 2:33 am

If we need Inge’s bat, we’ve got problems. Oh yeh, we do have problems. If Inge could hit, we could have put up more than 3 runs in how many games? Damn that can of beans.

Our problems have problems of their own. Partly we need Inge’s bat due to lack of Inge’s glove….

Latest Comments

Coleman http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=12413132&categoryid=2521705
On the other hand, Verlander is "confident" and "ready to go," so there's that.

Smoking Loon Good article, Kevin.
Did anyone else have the thought last year that perhaps the biggest problem with Verlander was... predictability? He

Kevin in Dallas Neither does this story.
http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2015/02/detroit_tigers_bring_back_righ_1.html

Kevin in Dallas This picture does not instill a whole bunch of confidence.
http://www.mlive.com/tigers/#/0

Coleman Check out this one: http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2015/02/report_relief_pitcher_joba_cha.html#incart_more_sports
He shaved the beard! And looks like he dropped a few pounds too.

StorminNorman$ http://m.tigers.mlb.com/news/article/110232762/joba-chamberlain-signs-with-detroit-tigers
low price, potential high yield... or maybe not. Whatever the case, Joba certainly said all the right things.

Jim EggersUSMC I concur K in D, am hoping for a good but not great season from JV. Seemed to me he

StorminNorman$ Great info/research Kevin! One point to clarify and factor into the analysis: JV did make $20M last year, but

Coleman Verlander had core muscle surgery last January. Could it be, at his age, and with the type of pitcher he

Jim EggersUSMC I am sorry to hear that, was looking forward to your blunt and accurate reports... as far as next year