Well, actually I used to live in Knowle, so that's not quite true BD. What always impressed me about B**h (reluctantly) is the wide area they draw support from. The number I used to see on the train in from Swindon was remarkable and I see many fat bald men wearing B**h shirts even as far out as Devizes.

I'd be interested to know where the support comes from for clubs who've moved away from their traditional homes: Wasps, LI, Saracens and Sale. Sale Sharks soon won't be playing in the same county as Sale. When you move to this quasi franchise system (and let's not forget the abomination of Oxford Shoguns) do you lose your traditional support but make it up in new supporters, or is it cumulative? LI have increased their support level but Saracens have had smaller crowds than Bristol a couple of times this season. I can't see this as a sustainable business model, but perhaps Wasps supporters can tell me? You certainly seem keen to move back to London, relegated or not.

If people are interested in the topic of licensing/franchising they should read the whole of the thread. Using it to replace relegation would not end movement in and out of the Premiership. There would be no permanent 'ring fence' with clubs licence to play in the Premiership reviewed every season. If a club failed to meet the financial or playing criteria and had no prospect of doing so they would be replaced. To retain a licence a club would have to meet commercial targets, stadium requirement, player development targets and be of a required playing standard.

In terms of the Bristol/Bath debate I have driven north into Bath on a match on many occasions and the traffic tails back. Also I was under the impression that if you came from south of the River Avon you owed your allegiances to Somerset rather than Gloucestershire. That is what happens in cricket and the Rovers/City divide in soccer.

Also it should be pointed out that Bruce Craig is a Bristolian so I guess he must be the greatest betrayer of all. Ha ha.

Following the excellent debate with interest. I would contest Beckenham Wasp's earlier point that the relegation-free 6 Nations still retains its attraction. It may do so when the top 4 are playing each other, but the annual wooden spoon battle between Scotland and Italy is pretty tedious, as the Murrayfield attendance figures seem to show.
The argument against it, as with the proposed closed shop/licensed English premiership, is that it tends to exclude developing clubs/nations and limit their progress. Imagine if the Scots/Italians had to spend a year in a European Nations Championship Division 2 and teams like Georgia or Romania got their chance with the big boys. Good for all concerned and certainly more interesting for spectators.

70,000 in Rome would suggest that there was interest in Italy v Scotland.

The international game is a bit different but there should be more test matches between the likes of Samoa, Georgia etc and first tier countries, especially first tier countries that are not very good.

It is good to see that Scotland are touring Samoa and Fiji this summer.

I would suggest that the winners of the European Nations Cup each year should be given a test match in the following Autumn against the Six Nations Wooden Spoonists. It would be good to see how the second tier European teams are progressing. From what I have seen and from their performances in the last two World Cups Georgia have a massive amount of potential. Also if Russia ever got serious they would be pretty decent as well.

I believe that is the plan BW with the winner of this year ENC (Georgia) getting an autumn game against as I was told "one of the blue sides in the 6N ... that doesn't speak French". Internationally it seems the big 10 (6N + SANZAR + Arg) all play each other with monotonous regularity but the sides ranked 10-15 (Canada, Japan, Tonga, Samoa and I think Georgia) never play the sides in the five places above them.

I think an 8 team knockout European Championship would be a good idea but it wpn't generate the same income as the 6N so is very unlikely to happen.

I can understand why the Six Nations and the Tri Nations have struggled to admit new members however the lack of normal test matches against Argentina, Samoa and Georgia is a disgrace. The IRB should ensure that teams that are good enough should be given games against the bigger countries. You could say that the top 15 countries should be on international fixture list.

On a more historial note the International Board was pretty woeful at spreading game in the 20th Century. How Canada was lost to Grid Iron Football is beyond me, just imagine how good they could have been. Also the French should be commended for spreading the game on the continent and developing links with Romania, Argentina and Georgia.

This is a fascinating thread, in terms of how the professional game should interface with the amateur game - thanks to all the contributors. We ought to find a way of getting this debate more broadly across all of the boards - even if none of us will get consulted in what the clubs, PRL etc actually do!

Thanks for that Derbyshire Fan. It is a lot more complicated than most people credit for because we are dealing with nascent professional sport that has had it teething problems. Look at soccer, they have been pro for 120 years the governance of the game is a shambles.

I was debating relegation vs ring fencing with a friend before the Gloucester game. There are arguments on both sides.

But I haven't enjoyed a victory as much as that against Gloucester since our last premiership title win. I thought - wishful thinking now obviously - that that was the win to keep us up. If, as seems likely, it goes to the last match I know I'll either be euphoric or in despair at the end. And that is one of the great things about watching sport.

So, from a spectator perspective, relegation is a good thing .... but please let it be Newcastle and not Wasps!

Beckenham Wasp, no doubt there is a particularly nasty punishment reserved in the third circle of Hell for Craig and his crimes against all that is good, right and proper.

Perhaps, though, there is a plausible argument to be made that he is not in fact an SHB, but is actually a proud Bristolian doing his best to destroy B**h from within. The evidence of this season would at least suggest that. In which case, more power to his secretly navy blue and white clad elbow.

On the six nations/tri nations and developing 'smaller' nations.Is there any merit in holding a second six nations equivalent where the six nation teams put out a european barbarians team picked from the likes of saxons.Or a 'seconds' home nations team. Then bring in full teams from Georgia, Russia etc. so you end up with another six nations competition.

LBD
In theory, yes. As a developmental level, a competitive "next rung" could give up and coming nations good experience. But we are back in the depths of BW's theme of how on earth can that be financially viable?

There is currently a second tier 6N played on the same weekends. In fact there are several tiers of European rugby which teams can work their way through untill they hit the glass ceiling. In Europe you can move freely from 37th to 7th based on your results but it is currently completely impossible to move from 7th to 6th.

Its hard though as there is absolutely no room for more internationals and the chances of reforming the 6N is about as likely as Quins fan making their own G&T!

Well SK88. I have decided to stir it up a bit on your side of house under the "Why everyone else hates Leicester" thread. Myt thoughts were generally well received.

Georgia definitely need to be given a fair crack of the whip in terms of games against the Six Nations during the Autumn window. A team games and 'friendlies' are not enough as they are not protected by the IRB's player release rules. Those French clubs are not for budging.

SK 88There is currently a second tier 6N played on the same weekends. In fact there are several tiers of European rugby which teams can work their way through untill they hit the glass ceiling. In Europe you can move freely from 37th to 7th based on your results but it is currently completely impossible to move from 7th to 6th.
Its hard though as there is absolutely no room for more internationals and the chances of reforming the 6N is about as likely as Quins fan making their own Pimms!

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