On 10/08/2012 simey wrote:>BTW I reckon Nick's list of routes that could be improved by the removal>of some bolts would see a lot of climbers nodding in agreement.>
Yeah, seems like a good start........On Edge is a bit tricky though. I also liked it better with carrots and the peg, but Mikl is pretty much over carrots (it's hard to argue with the guy who put the route up and did the rebolt and is a nice bloke). I don't think there's any extra bolts in it (apart from the one which replaced the fixed peg)

> Nick, wow.......just, wow! You onsighted a 23 at Frog? A real classic by the sound of it too. So how come, if you're such a hard hitter, onsighting 23 in "a groundfall situation", you can't even dog a retrobolted Blueys 23 into submission?

Well, if you make comments like this, you should be prepared to back it up.

How about this as a more reasonable stake for a lopsided bet? If I onsight it, you admit on chockstone that you're a big jessie who probably should have stayed back in the old country where mediocrity is more admired. If I fail to onsight it, I'll admit that I'm a washed up old has-been who's mouth is writing checks his body can't cash?

On 10/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>Give me fair odds mate, and I will!>>How about this as a more reasonable stake for a lopsided bet? If I onsight>it, you admit on chockstone that you're a big jessie who probably should>have stayed back in the old country where mediocrity is more admired. If>I fail to onsight it, I'll admit that I'm a washed up old has-been who's>mouth is writing checks his body can't cash?>

More of a sportsman's bet then?

Done.

Can't do this weekend, as, amongst other things, I am going to a toddlers prom (hard, I know). Any weekend day after that.

On 10/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>Give me fair odds mate, and I will!>>How about this as a more reasonable stake for a lopsided bet? If I onsight>it, you admit on chockstone that you're a big jessie who probably should>have stayed back in the old country where mediocrity is more admired. If>I fail to onsight it, I'll admit that I'm a washed up old has-been who's>mouth is writing checks his body can't cash?>
On 10/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>On 10/08/2012 Nick Clow wrote:>>More of a sportsman's bet then?>>>>Done.>>>>Can't do this weekend, as, amongst other things, I am going to a toddlers>>prom (hard, I know). Any weekend day after that.>>Cool! I've always thought there's something hilarious about chockstone>shit talk actually resulting in things happening at the crag.>>I'm out for the next 2 w/e, very keen to get up to the Blueys after that.

On 9/08/2012 Macciza wrote:>Stugang>I hear where you are coming from and it is a difficult one to comment>on - you did try to find out if it was a route, it wasn't recorded, so>honest mistake etc. >But it was either an existing or something that some one had tried or>something, or else why was the bolt there. Would you have tried it the>way you did if the bolt was not there? Would you have gone ground up ?

yes it was an honest mistake, and truth be known I would not have gone ground up if the existing shitty bolt was not there. Its a bit of a squeeze route and I probably wouldn't have ever got on it (at all ever!) if the existing bolt wasn't there.

>If you bailed would you have rapped in to suss it out? etc etc etc I guess>we will never know because the bolt was there. I know a bolt on a face>can be inviting, and also that blank faces can seem intimidating.>I agree that you did it in fine style; up to the point where you used>a sign-post bolt to indicate where the route goes, not sure about that>bit.

I gave the long winded story just to give an example of things aren't black and white etc. I was relatively new to the game of putting up routes at the time (I think it was the first thing I used my Ryobi on) BUT I did think a lot about whether to put the "sign post" bolt in, weighing it up against the alternative (which was ODH's clear description option). Even now I think the extra bolt was the better alternative, and not just cos of the "sign post" aspect but also cos the climbing inbetween the existing carrot and my new bolt was kind of 'bullshit bold' climbing. i.e. a bit contrived and easy to step off into another climb at numerous points - the bolt also would have served the purpose of keeping people on the nice climbing rather than traversing off.

I ended up taking option C and chopping everything (including the back up to the carrot and the one on the DS that WB requested I leave). Largely cos, as ODH so eloquently put it, I "chucked a tanty" cos WB's attitude that weekend was so fking arrogant. Around the campfire I tried talking to him and asking where he went up the face (ie crack or flake? - as despite being close they are distinct lines) and he just avoided talking about it saying the "only thing i can remember is being really run out doing really thin long reaches...blah blah blah...did i tell you how good i am...blah blah blah...". Anyway that is the only time I have met him and I'm sure he's a nicer fellow that I remember him as so apologies if i've defamed him. But that's how he came across to a kid over 20 years ago. It was a bit dissapointing cos I'd spent the previous summer climbing in the blueys for a month or so and the piccy's of him on psychodrama in the guide I found really inspirational....In any case, he wasn't the only "hero" i met in '89 that got demoted from the pedestal i'd put them on after 5 years of climbing and guidebook devouring.

>>Simey makes some good points but I'm not sure he really nails it.

Isn't he just saying take all climbs and perspectives on their merits. I would say that in 99% of cases that translates to 'leave it as is'. But occasionally that means sometimes adding a bolt is the better option, and also sometimes chopping also is the better option.

>Times>have moved on - climbs attempted are harder, and less obvious, more dangerous.>Sometimes on hard/bold it is basically 'saner' to rap and have a quick>look at something to make sure you do at least stand a chance and its not>suicidal.>I wrote a whole lot more to try to explain but it all gets too wordy and>convoluted - making decisions about doing bold climbs can be a real mind-fcuk>sometimes.>I have sometimes spent ages/years working myself out in order to approach>certain climbs - just making the decision to seriously consider doing it>can be bloody hard . . .>

I am potentially free on the weekend of the 25/26th August as cafe will be closed and footy will have finished but my priorities will probably revolve around some back-country ski trips. It all depends on weather and other factors. If I can't make it up to the Blueys I'm sure somebody else would be keen to capture the magic that is ODH on rock.

I really do think it would be a great subject for a film. I am assuming The Rage This Season involves thin climbing with a bit of consequence which should look pretty dramatic on camera. Combined with a bit of smack talk, you suddenly have a real story, not just a boring redpoint of some hard, steep, safe route which seems to be 99% of climbing films.

On 10/08/2012 Nick Clow wrote:>...Very quickly off the top of my head:

Nick, you've chosen some bad examples there. You're quoting routes which have the same number of bolts they always had (Ex Wall) or routes rebolted by the still-active FAs (Mikl and Crunch) who can do what they like with their own routes. There are still heaps of routes around - especially at Cosmic - which suit your preference.

I'm all for leaving routes from, say, grade 22 upwards bold as hell. Why not leave 21 and below for beginners/those working their way up? The so-called hard men look down their noses at those grades anyway.

Kmonster - its a civilised discussion about the photo of the week, and how the name of that climb evokes the tension between the masculine sun rituals of the northern incas and the feminine rituals of the lunar worshipping southern indians (who relied mainly on fish for their sustenance).

That and how its a crap route on a crap crag.
Can't see how you missed that...I always took you for a smart chap. Hmmmm time to reevaluate.

On 9/08/2012 stugang wrote:>>Warwick drove from Sydney for a 2 day weekend at moonarie to tell me he>had already climbed the worst route on the Great Wall (although had never>bothered to write it up for 8 years (probably cos he was embarrassed) despite>doing so for a couple of other notable routes in the meantime???), and>he spent 40 hours in a car to tell me that he wanted the bolts chopped>on this route he never bothered to record. >>This was in '89 and I was only 18 (and kind of impressionable) when this>all happened. It taught me:>-the previous generation of climbers are probably egotistical twats>-the whole notion of the first ascentionist having a right over a piece>of rock is a load of bollocks.

It teaches me that god damn!!! petrol prices must have been pretty low back then :p