Hey! Now this is good news. Good work Kenny. Lets hope he'll turn into our number 4 guy.

poorme

01-13-2004, 07:13 PM

what major arm surgery is he coming off of?

ChiWhiteSox1337

01-13-2004, 07:14 PM

hooray!!
:bandance:

ChiSox7

01-13-2004, 07:15 PM

He was solid til he messed up his arm a year and a half ago. He struggled with it his last year at Philly and last season, but if surgery helped he can be a good #4 or #5 starter

Palehose13

01-13-2004, 07:18 PM

Which person?

HITMEN OF 77

01-13-2004, 07:33 PM

missing person?

soxfan26

01-13-2004, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by poorme
what major arm surgery is he coming off of?

He had surgery on his shoulder and elbow if I remember right, but they were both 2 years ago. He could definately suprise...

hold2dibber

01-13-2004, 07:37 PM

I'm hoping for a few more of these no-risk signings of free agent starting pitchers - maybe a Scott Erickson or a Rick Reed, etc. The Sox are so thin in their starting rotation that signing 3 or 4 of these kinds of guys would be a good move.

If Person is fully recovered and can put up numbers like 2001, we have found our #4 starter. Good move Kenny, could be another Loaiza.

I think you mean another Tom Gordon. With his arm problems, its doubtful that Person could be a starting pitcher again soon or that the Sox would risk him in that capacity. If Person can make a full recovery, he could be every bit as effective as a closer as Gordon was.

Foulke You

01-13-2004, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by hftrex
I think you mean another Tom Gordon. With his arm problems, its doubtful that Person could be a starting pitcher again soon or that the Sox would risk him in that capacity. If Person can make a full recovery, he could be every bit as effective as a closer as Gordon was.

Well, perhaps the Sox will take a "wait and see" approach and see how he is throwing in Spring Training. If his arm is looking like he could be a starter, I think the Sox by necessity will have to give him a look for the rotation given our shortcomings in that area. It is entirely possible that he can break camp with the team in the bullpen if Dan Wright, Matt Ginter, or David Sanders doesn't step up to take the spot.

Brian26

01-13-2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Foulke You
If Person is fully recovered and can put up numbers like 2001, we have found our #4 starter. Good move Kenny, could be another Loaiza.

Could also be another James Baldwin. Not at a bad move by Kenny though. Low-risk, so it's hard to complain.

hftrex

01-13-2004, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Brian26
Could also be another James Baldwin. Not at a bad move by Kenny though. Low-risk, so it's hard to complain.

Don't worry. Once the likes of Lip Man & Hangar see this, they'll be wailing away...............................

MRKARNO

01-13-2004, 08:21 PM

The White Sox Seem to be signing a lot of pitchers with P starting their last name...Politte...Person....Ponson?

SluggersAway

01-13-2004, 08:22 PM

sounds like an interesting pick-up.

I was wondering if anyone knows of any good information avaliable online about strengthening a pitching arm or even about what it takes for these guys to be able to throw that many pitches, so fast, so consistently.

It seems like a real art.

I don't really know the first place to look.

Thanks

MRKARNO

01-13-2004, 08:29 PM

In General, after last years' signing of Gordon and Loaiza to minor league contracts, I really like these low risk bets, and I dont see how anyone else could dislike them either.

lowesox

01-13-2004, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by MRKARNO
In General, after last years' signing of Gordon and Loaiza to minor league contracts, I really like these low risk bets, and I dont see how anyone else could dislike them either.

I agree. But I think it's important that they don't count on these players. Last year I really like how they also brought in two other guys (can't remember them right now) to compete with Loaiza. Right now, I'd say they should look at about 4 of these no-risk starters, and 3-4 in the bullpen.

ChiWhiteSox1337

01-13-2004, 09:11 PM

I know one of them was Gil Heredia but I don't remember the other. I liked the signing of Gordon too at the time because of his past numbers even though he was injured.

A. Cavatica

01-13-2004, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by MRKARNO
The White Sox Seem to be signing a lot of pitchers with P starting their last name...Politte...Person....Ponson?

Kenny actually thought he was signing Ponson.

Soxfest

01-13-2004, 09:26 PM

Hurray another grinder = Cheap = Sox

depy48

01-13-2004, 09:32 PM

I really think Robert Person can be productive part of the White Sox

JDP

01-13-2004, 09:38 PM

This move is nothing but good, but for all the bad reasons. Person MIGHT develop into a surprise, otherwise, his signing is simply a blurb and a horrible way to say "at least we're trying something." Nothing is expected of him, and more than likely, nothing will come of him.

Before we start saying"Loaiza: Part II", consider:
1. Person has a career 6.00+ ERA in the American League.
2. He is a 2-pitch starting pitcher
3. In a 9 year career, he's had 2 season that can be considered "#3 or #4 starter material." (2000 and 2001)
4. He hasn't started a game in 1 1/2 years.

ChiSox7

01-13-2004, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by JDP
This move is nothing but good, but for all the bad reasons. Person MIGHT develop into a surprise, otherwise, his signing is simply a blurb and a horrible way to say "at least we're trying something." Nothing is expected of him, and more than likely, nothing will come of him.

Before we start saying"Loaiza: Part II", consider:
1. Person has a career 6.00+ ERA in the American League.
2. He is a 2-pitch starting pitcher
3. In a 9 year career, he's had 2 season that can be considered "#3 or #4 starter material." (2000 and 2001)
4. He hasn't started a game in 1 1/2 years.

Those four reasons would be important if they spent a lot of money on him. They didn't. Nothing but good can come from this signing and that's the bottom line. He has the ability to be a solid #4 or #5 starter that we need if he is healthy. This is a great 'scounting' signing.

JDP

01-13-2004, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by ChiSox7
Those four reasons would be important if they spent a lot of money on him. They didn't. Nothing but good can come from this signing and that's the bottom line.

Yes, thank you for repeating what I said -- "nothing but good can come from a signing like this." (for all the wrong reasons). This team and its fans have sunk to the level of needing to count on re-treads for contention and to keep fan optimism alive. Sad.

He has the ability to be a solid #4 or #5 starter that we need if he is healthy. This is a great 'scounting' signing.

I suppose if you want to give credit for "scouting" by counting on something to happen, then you stick to that theory I suppose. Wouldn't tread much water, this I know. [assuming your scounting = scouting + counting on].

ChiSox7

01-13-2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by JDP
I suppose if you want to give credit for "scouting" by counting on something to happen, then you stick to that theory I suppose. Wouldn't tread much water, this I know. [assuming your scounting = scouting + counting on].

I agree with what you're saying, but the bottom line is JR doesn't want to spend a lot of him money this year. Can't say I blame him. All the money he's spent on bigtime names hasn't exactly worked out in the last eight years, and that's accounted for one playoff appearance which was a sweep.

If you are going to get headcases, you might as well get headcases that are cheap. I wish he would spend more money and put 70 mil into a payroll, but its his money and his team and thats not what he wants to do. I want players who want to play and who play the game right. Minny doesn't have big name money players like we've had and they have no problem winning the division. I'm just tired of people whining about not having a bigger payroll. It's not going to happen so we need to think about what we can do to compete with the money and players we have. We needed a solid #4 or 5 starter. cheap players can be that. dont need to spend money on a K Rogers if a Pacheco or Person or Rauch can get you 9-10 wins (which i think they can)

But I digress. THis is just my opinion afterall.

JDP

01-13-2004, 10:19 PM

I'll agree w/ you that it is an extremely low-cost, low-risk and high gain move. I however, agree to disagree on the impact and gain that it will show.

I just disagree entirely with the mentality and approach that both management and ownership have with this team. Minnesota wins w/ low payroll, sure. They, however, have other mitigating factors that contribute to their success. Mainly, they are the sole team in a city [vs Cubs/Sox], but also, management and ownership aren't strapped with horrible contracts and overpaid Roger Dorn's. I also see that Minnesota has rallied around the anti-contraction issue and even that seems to have further strengthen the fan base in Minneapolis.

cornball

01-13-2004, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by ChiSox7
Those four reasons would be important if they spent a lot of money on him. They didn't. Nothing but good can come from this signing and that's the bottom line. He has the ability to be a solid #4 or #5 starter that we need if he is healthy. This is a great 'scounting' signing.

I wouldn't call it a great scouting sign because I am sure Person's agent was sending out feelers to all teams.

Never the less, it is a good signing. I hope he is healthy and contribute.

MRKARNO

01-13-2004, 10:23 PM

Sorry, but after Loaiza and Gordon, I feel like KW knows what he's doing. The last time we signed a guy who hadn't pitched well since his surgery, he overtook Billy Koch to become our closer.

Daver

01-13-2004, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by JDP
I'll agree w/ you that it is an extremely low-cost, low-risk and high gain move. I however, agree to disagree on the impact and gain that it will show.

I just disagree entirely with the mentality and approach that both management and ownership have with this team. Minnesota wins w/ low payroll, sure. They, however, have other mitigating factors that contribute to their success. Mainly, they are the sole team in a city [vs Cubs/Sox], but also, management and ownership aren't strapped with horrible contracts and overpaid Roger Dorn's. I also see that Minnesota has rallied around the anti-contraction issue and even that seems to have further strengthen the fan base in Minneapolis.

You have completely sidestepped the main reason behind Minnesota's success.Ten years ago they made a commitment to building their team through the draft,and they stuck with it.At any given time the majority of their roster consists of players from their own system,while we dealt with the Ron Schueler plan of drafting on his whim and having no long term plan for the future.KW is in the process of correcting this,but it will not be done overnight,based on the premise that you draft today for six years down the road.

cornball

01-13-2004, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Daver
based on the premise that you draft today for six years down the road.

Agreed, and the teams that are competitive year in and year out use the FA market to fill in the gaps. We don't have this luxury. Tough to get ahead by trade alone.

duke of dorwood

01-13-2004, 10:40 PM

THe Cubs talk Greg Maddux-we sign another sore armed pitcher. These gambles dont cost anything , but they are just that. I feel like I want to eat at Berghoffs, but end up at Burger King being a Sox fan

JDP

01-13-2004, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Daver
You have completely sidestepped the main reason behind Minnesota's success.Ten years ago they made a commitment to building their team through the draft,and they stuck with it.At any given time the majority of their roster consists of players from their own system,while we dealt with the Ron Schueler plan of drafting on his whim and having no long term plan for the future.KW is in the process of correcting this,but it will not be done overnight,based on the premise that you draft today for six years down the road.

I didn't side-step the main reason, I had simply left it out. KW may not draft on such a "whim" as Schueler, but he has traded away more minor league talent than Schueler ever did.

duke of dorwood

01-13-2004, 10:45 PM

Our shortstop situation is left over from Scheuler

Lip Man 1

01-13-2004, 10:48 PM

Hftrex

Obviously you haven't been around here very long or else you would know that I advocate bringing in veteran, experienced pitchers by the bushel and letting them fight it out for a few spots.

I'd rather do that in spades then take a chance on our "can't miss kids," who with the exception of Buehrle, Sirotka and for a short time Parque, have collectively fallen right on their asses.

The Sox have overvalued their minor league pitching and it has shown.

Naturally the best bet is to go out and sign more Bartolo Colon's, Mike Mussina's, Randy Johnson's etc (experienced, winning veteran pitchers) but that's never going to happen under current ownership. This is the next best thing given the 'self imposed' salary limitations.

I'm all for this move

Lip

Daver

01-13-2004, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by JDP
I didn't side-step the main reason, I had simply left it out. KW may not draft on such a "whim" as Schueler, but he has traded away more minor league talent than Schueler ever did.

Once Schueler ran out of Himes draft picks he didn't have much to trade.Kenny hasn't traded anything that he has not replaced either through the draft or via minor league trades.Kenny gets the concept of building through the draft,as Himes did,Schueler hamstrung this organization by not understanding that concept,and compacted it by drafting poorly,and followed it up by not being willing to trade what he considered his "top" talent when he could have.

In many ways Ron Schueler is responsible for the mess this organization is in right now.

RichH55

01-14-2004, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hftrex

Obviously you haven't been around here very long or else you would know that I advocate bringing in veteran, experienced pitchers by the bushel and letting them fight it out for a few spots.

I'd rather do that in spades then take a chance on our "can't miss kids," who with the exception of Buehrle, Sirotka and for a short time Parque, have collectively fallen right on their asses.

The Sox have overvalued their minor league pitching and it has shown.

Naturally the best bet is to go out and sign more Bartolo Colon's, Mike Mussina's, Randy Johnson's etc (experienced, winning veteran pitchers) but that's never going to happen under current ownership. This is the next best thing given the 'self imposed' salary limitations.

I'm all for this move

Lip

Speaking of which....Rick Helling signed today as well

Think we can still move Carlos Lee for him?:)

RichH55

01-14-2004, 07:53 AM

This might be random...Was this the Person we lost in an expansion draft many years back?

tanko

01-14-2004, 08:28 AM

I like this signing if he;s healthy he is good.By the way you guys way over rate the finding of Loaiza he was a decent pitcher for Toronto and Texas he was the Jays opening day starter the year before we signed him.You guys know I have the misfortune of seeing alot of Jays baseball and Loaiza definitely showed flashes his good year did not shock me.Mind you I didn't think he'd win 20 games.Now if Cliff Politte is any good for us I'll be down right shocked.

hold2dibber

01-14-2004, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by MRKARNO
Sorry, but after Loaiza and Gordon, I feel like KW knows what he's doing. The last time we signed a guy who hadn't pitched well since his surgery, he overtook Billy Koch to become our closer.

IIRC, Gordon had actually pitched extremely well in the 2nd half of 2002.

hold2dibber

01-14-2004, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by MRKARNO
In General, after last years' signing of Gordon and Loaiza to minor league contracts, I really like these low risk bets, and I dont see how anyone else could dislike them either.

Gordon was not a minor league contract - he was on a 1 year major league deal, IIRC.

hold2dibber

01-14-2004, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by ChiSox7
I agree with what you're saying, but the bottom line is JR doesn't want to spend a lot of him money this year. Can't say I blame him. All the money he's spent on bigtime names hasn't exactly worked out in the last eight years, and that's accounted for one playoff appearance which was a sweep.

What are you talking about? The only "big name" players he's spent a lot of money on were Albert Belle (which didn't make sense because the Sox needed pitching not hitting and which he completely negated shortly thereafter by the White Flag Trade anyway), David Wells (trarded for in the last year of his contract) and Bartolo Colon (traded for in the last year of his contract). One of those three flamed out and the other two were pretty damn good. The problem is that he half-asses it every time. How about actually signing a good starting free agent pitcher? That just doesn't happen around here.

If you are going to get headcases, you might as well get headcases that are cheap. I wish he would spend more money and put 70 mil into a payroll, but its his money and his team and thats not what he wants to do. I want players who want to play and who play the game right. Minny doesn't have big name money players like we've had and they have no problem winning the division. I'm just tired of people whining about not having a bigger payroll. It's not going to happen so we need to think about what we can do to compete with the money and players we have. We needed a solid #4 or 5 starter. cheap players can be that. dont need to spend money on a K Rogers if a Pacheco or Person or Rauch can get you 9-10 wins (which i think they can)

But the Sox aren't doing the "mid level payroll" thing properly. They greatly overpaid for Koch and Konerko, they greatly undervalued and mis-used Foulke, they traded a guy (K. Wells) who was good and young for a guy (Ritchie) who is not good and not cheap, and they've missed out on a bunch of cheap, good players this off season (look at what the Blue Jays have done by adding Lily, Hentgen and Bautista for not much $ as compared to what the Sox have done to upgrade their extremely thin starting rotation).

They are truly floundering right now, and betting all their chips on unproven guys like Harris, Rowand, Garland, Rauch, Cotts, Diaz, Pachecho, etc. It's a recipe for disaster.

Foulke You

01-14-2004, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by hold2dibber
The problem is that he half-asses it every time. How about actually signing a good starting free agent pitcher? That just doesn't happen around here.

I thought about your free agent pitcher comment and the last time I remember the Sox went after what would be considered a "top tier" free agent pitcher was ex-Cub reject Jaime Navarro (HA!). From what I recall, Navarro wasn't even brought in to bolster our pitching, he was merely a replacement for Alex Fernandez who left for Florida if I remember right.

Reinsdorf got burned on the high priced Navarro deal and has sworn off signing top tier free agent pitchers forever. I can't help but wonder if Navarro would have been successful, if management's philosophy towards spending on pitchers would be different?

:jaime
The ghost of Navarro's suckage still looms high over Comiskey Park

Hangar18

01-14-2004, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Foulke You
....... I think the Sox by necessity will have to give him a look for the rotation given our shortcomings in that area.

You meant to say "Self-Imposed" Shortcomings right?

Foulke You

01-14-2004, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Hangar18
You meant to say "Self-Imposed" Shortcomings right?

For sure. The thin starting rotation is self inflicted. I've just accepted the fact that our rotation is going to be Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Schoeneweis, and (insert cheap pitcher's name here). :(:

DrCrawdad

01-14-2004, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by RichH55
This might be random...Was this the Person we lost in an expansion draft many years back?

From the Robert Persons page at BaseballReference.com:

Transactions

June 5, 1989: Drafted by the Cleveland Indians in the 25th round of the 1989 amateur draft.

June 26, 1991: Traded by the Cleveland Indians to the Chicago White Sox for Grady Hall (minors).

November 17, 1992: Drafted by the Florida Marlins from the Chicago White Sox as the 47th pick in the 1992 expansion draft.

December 19, 1992: Granted Free Agency.

January 8, 1993: Signed as a Free Agent with the Florida Marlins.

March 30, 1994: Traded by the Florida Marlins to the New York Mets for Steve Long (minors).

December 20, 1996: Traded by the New York Mets to the Toronto Blue Jaysfor John Olerud and cash.

May 5, 1999: Traded by the Toronto Blue Jays to the Philadelphia Phillies forPaul Spoljaric.

wilburaga

01-14-2004, 03:34 PM

Thanks for that. I always wondered where Grady Hall went. Our # 1 pick in 1986 out of Northwestern (Hawk's one and only). I believe Hawk was enamored by Grady's intelligence. We'd have been better off drafting Grady from 'Sanford and Son'.

W

jeremyb1

01-15-2004, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hftrex

Obviously you haven't been around here very long or else you would know that I advocate bringing in veteran, experienced pitchers by the bushel and letting them fight it out for a few spots.

I'd rather do that in spades then take a chance on our "can't miss kids," who with the exception of Buehrle, Sirotka and for a short time Parque, have collectively fallen right on their asses.

I'm not sure that's true, Lip. In the past you've advocated giving major league deals to questionable pitchers such as Helling. To me that's a problem because you're guaranteeing that pitcher a roster spot when there's a solid chance there is a young pitcher in the organization or a free agent with upside that can be signed to a minor league deal that can outpitch someone such as Helling. If you're now arguing about letting a number of veterans fight it out for a spot, that would imply minor league deals not major league contracts which is completely different.

Jjav829

01-16-2004, 08:44 AM

According to rotoworld, Person will make $750,000 if he makes the team and the team will hold a $2.5 million option for next year. Good move by KW. Nothing spectacular but if he if healthy he good be a good find.

Lip Man 1

01-16-2004, 01:02 PM

Jeremy:

I could care less whether the deals are major or minor league since I advocate the Sox having at minimum the median MLB payroll.

You're thinking like a salary conscious GM, I'm thinking like an owner with millions to spend in the 3rd largest market in the country.

Bottom line though with me (and I also advocated getting Suppan and Rogers...you remember him don't you?) is that I don't want "can't miss kids," particularly from the Sox organization on my team. They have been overhyped and as a group have been mediocre at best, and that's including Buehrle the only impact pitcher to come out since the days of McDowell and Fernandez. (and that was a long time ago!)