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Special move changes

Why are you so intent on nerfing sampires? Does it really bother you so much that someone can solo something that your mage or tamer or paladin or whatever can't? Or do better in a spawn or something? Some other build is always going to be better at something you can't do.

The shards other than Atlantic are so dead now that you almost can't find a whole mess of people to do a big hunt anymore. The result of this is that people will find a way to make the perfect complimentary set of skills to make them as effective solo as possible. So nerf sampires, and another superclass will evolve. Nerf that, and another will replace it. Keep nerfing them, and we will be left with pure classes, so no mystic mages, no tamer mages, no unique classes at all. It will distill down to single, boring predictable cookie cutter templates. Wow, I can't wait to play a classic fighter and need a pure mage to back me up, because someone kept b!tching about bandaging yourself while in combat being unrealistic to the point of absurdity and they nerfed it...

I mean think about it, you just had Medusa pump several giant arrows in you, or got fried by a dragon's fireball, perhabs a sucking chest wound or 3rd degree burns over 50% of your body, and no problem, while I'm fighting, I can just slap a bandaid on that and poof, all better! Blood loss be damned! But I digress.

What fun would the game be if you couldn't pick and choose your skills to compliment each other?

Instead of griping about them, why don't you make up a sampire, and have some fun with it before someone takes your advice and nerfs it? It really is a fun build to play. You might like it.

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They won't find the "perfect set" of skills if they made things there were not able to be beaten by any one player, either by cause of it having hpr high enough to beat out the damage any one player could potentially do. Just saying.

Other than that, I would call the "sampire build" boring, not fun.....don't even really have to pay attention 98% of the time. I don't care if they nerf it or not, though I do think adding some content to game that no one player could handle alone would not be a bad change.

I don't know about that. I know that none of those I have helped to create theirs thought them boring. Believe it or not, if you aren't paying attention half of the time, you're dead half the time. Consider blood oath, as a small example. One well timed oath when you aren't looking for even a second or two can ruin your day. Of course, if you spend your time messing around with lizardmen, chances are you could lag out and crash and come back in 5 minutes, and still be there, but that can also be said about most warriors.

Against higher enemies, you need to pay attention to throw the right specials for the situation, or you're dead meat. You oversimplify it. Nobody makes a sampire and goes to solo key and fight Dreadhorn the next day.

Of course, someone will raise their hand here and say they conquered the world on their sampire 10 minutes after they put on their suit, so we can see how I33t they are, and worship them. *snort*

Anyway, if a sampire is boring, a dexer with lesser capability is certainly more boring. Oh wait, I guess throwing bandaids continuously while chugging potions and running away from stuff is fun? And tamers must be fun. I mean hiding behind a meat-wall greater dragon (the lazy path that most of Atlantic seems to take) and casting invis on yourself, that's gotta be a blast. They can solo most of the stuff that sampires can.

I don't know about that. I know that none of those I have helped to create theirs thought them boring. Believe it or not, if you aren't paying attention half of the time, you're dead half the time. Consider blood oath, as a small example. One well timed oath when you aren't looking for even a second or two can ruin your day. Of course, if you spend your time messing around with lizardmen, chances are you could lag out and crash and come back in 5 minutes, and still be there, but that can also be said about most warriors.

Against higher enemies, you need to pay attention to throw the right specials for the situation, or you're dead meat. You oversimplify it. Nobody makes a sampire and goes to solo key and fight Dreadhorn the next day.

Of course, someone will raise their hand here and say they conquered the world on their sampire 10 minutes after they put on their suit, so we can see how I33t they are, and worship them. *snort*

Anyway, if a sampire is boring, a dexer with lesser capability is certainly more boring. Oh wait, I guess throwing bandaids continuously while chugging potions and running away from stuff is fun? And tamers must be fun. I mean hiding behind a meat-wall greater dragon (the lazy path that most of Atlantic seems to take) and casting invis on yourself, that's gotta be a blast. They can solo most of the stuff that sampires can.

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Uhm, yea....how many critters cast oath again? Also I gave my opinion not stating a fact, you said to try it and it is fun, I came back that those who post have tried it, most likely they all use it, does not make it fun and does not change their opinion on the situation.

I Have been able to solo DF since before the sampire build, does not mean anything though. I have not used a sampire on a critter that casts blood oath (namely the only one really is the dark father in doom, and well I don't go there often.) don't have to time specials....mostly just spam w/e won't make a difference, occasionally have to cast Divine fury or chug a pot, but even that would not get you killed.

Also I never claimed playing a tamer in pvm was fun..... I would prefer to have to run away from time to time vs falling asleep just watching my stamina (ya know, case it actually falls below max swing speed...but generally any hit landed will result in full stamina again). I tend to either use a mage or a melee character that generally requires another player with you to accomplish much, but again I believe in the beginning part of the genre of game we are playing, "MM" Massively Multiplayer.

And again I countered your original post simply with my opinion and the facts surrounding it, I respond to this one in the same manner so really doesn't matter what return you have, since I do not care about others experiences when I give my own opinion, although most would agree it is the "set and forget" template.

Anything that uses necromancy, namely dark fathers, lady mel, skeletal dragons, almost anything in an undead champ spawn, Neira herself, maddening horrors... To name a few. There are doubtless many others I can't think of off the top of my head.

Also I gave my opinion not stating a fact, you said to try it and it is fun, I came back that those who post have tried it, most likely they all use it, does not make it fun and does not change their opinion on the situation.

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To each his own, I would say. I thing that we are all fully aware that when someone says something is fun, they mean that in their experience, it is enjoyable, and they should not be made to place a qualifying "It is my opinon that..." before everything they say. I express the opinion that a sampire is fun, and you offer a differing one that it is not.

Also I never claimed playing a tamer in pvm was fun.....

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I know, I never said you did. I was merely pointing out that tamers can solo things too, hence if things shouldn't be solo'd, they would be on the chopping block too.

I would prefer to have to run away from time to time vs falling asleep just watching my stamina (ya know, case it actually falls below max swing speed...but generally any hit landed will result in full stamina again).

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If you are falling asleep with your sampire, you aren't challenging yourself enough. Go find a para greater dragon and try it, or run into the center of the 4th level of a cold blood spawn, and aggro a mess of dragons and ophidians, or go try to take a mess of lesser hiryus and revenant lions in the Tokuno spawn.

I tend to either use a mage or a melee character that generally requires another player with you to accomplish much, but again I believe in the beginning part of the genre of game we are playing, "MM" Massively Multiplayer.

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The best thing about it is that the sampire does not have to be played alone, and is complimentary in a group. It keeps the casters out of melee range, where he belongs, and pretty much keeps the boss's attention while everyone else gets to wail away at it. The simple fact that the sampire can do it without help is not the issue in a group setting.

It's basically a fighter without bandaids. All the rest is Bushido and Chivalry which are on many templates. The stamina leech and mana leech is on the weapon, and should be on any PVM fighter template's weapon. A fast swing is pretty helpful for any dexer's template, which is why they call them dexers. If the problem for people's perception is the life leech, you can put some of that on any weapon too, its just not quite as effective.

....doesn't matter what return you have, since I do not care about others experiences when I give my own opinion...

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I really don't know what to say about that... I always take into consideration everyone else's opion when I offer a differing one.

This part is not directed at you, cloak.

I do think that many who play the game want to make their characters as capable as they can be, and there are certain combinations of skills that make for more survivability than others, and I think that this is as it should be. There is not much of a chance that a char that has all GM skills in herding, begging, item ID, taste ID, camping, forensics, and tracking should be as good at killing monsters as one of the mage templates, or fighter templates, or others. There are certain combinations that make for a good class. It's a sandbox game in order to ensure that the players can select these skills for themselves, and they will usually fall into certain existing templates. Whether that be a pure mage, Paladin, mystic dexer, tamer, sampire, or what have you, some are going to be good combinations, and some will be more effective at certain things than others. So as to whether a sampire being able to solo bosses while a mage/tamer/whatever would have a harder time at it, its part of the game. To my knowledge, a sampire can't solo Mel, blackrock golems, Corgul, Scalis, Slasher of Veils and others. Other templates can. Sampires also don't do well on boats... Why should people rage that sampires are too good, too common, too whatever? People will use what works for what they want to achieve.

*just to direct at you, you had a long post there so to save room I typed this*

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I will respond to the beginning and end (parts that you quoted me on) I did not mean to make it sound like you were not giving your opinion, I only responded because you said "try it, it is fun" as if we have not, sorry if I sound other wise....Typing is hard to express properly, so just want to apologize as it seems you may have taken that wrongly.

And the last part, I was not saying that I do not consider others opinions when I consider matters, but my own opinion is never influenced by others, so when I give it it is purely my own experience and belief and no one else has affected me or my opinion in such a way as to sway me.

Also do not take me entirely wrong on the whole issue of the sampire, I do not think you have to play it solo, I just think more things in game should require multiple people, (such as start to finish any single champ spawn solo is kinda on the ridiculous side in my opinion, also "peerless" sorta loses its meaning) I am not exactly on the "nerf sampires" campaign, but I do think monsters should get a boost of hpr or SOMETHING that makes them not beatable by a single person, but not impossible for a few (like they had the champ bosses quite a bit back was ridiculous....) An A.I. upgrade perhaps? I am not saying they should be able to kill the sampire entirely but still should be able to survive vs just one player....(tamers included....although I guess a tamer could be 2-5 people so a little harder to figure out)

I thought I mentioned that the sampire is not the only build that can solo things, and thus I do not see that build as the problem, but rather the ability to solo EVERYTHING is a problem with the game as a whole (again multiple templates can pull this off, some easier than others some with less attention needed than other but over all a problem all around)

I admit to never doing a paragon greater dragon, but I have done all of the champ spawns, and almost all of the peerless bosses (minus mel, but mostly cause I do that with other people) and I have not done doom on a sampire, but all of the rest of the stuff is fairly easy on a sampire and I prefer some challenges, I don't really mind dying....prefer it if I don't but not at the cost of my personal "fun level".

Again apologies for anything that might have been misconstrued or seemed off.

Typing is hard to express properly, so just want to apologize as it seems you may have taken that wrongly.

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Yes, sometimes during the process of translating thoughts and feelings to written text, some parts are "lost in the translation", and being read back on the other side can be easily misconstrued. I get you now.

... but I do think monsters should get a boost of hpr or SOMETHING that makes them not beatable by a single person, but not impossible for a few (like they had the champ bosses quite a bit back was ridiculous....)

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As I took a bit of a vacation from 2000 until 2009, I wasn't around to see this, but a guildie was telling me that at some point in time, some champs in Ilshenar occasionally would spawn as paragons... Sounds interesting to be sure. The problem with boosting monsters is they would need to do it in a controlled manner. I don't think they can do much on their budget with the A.I., and I don't thing the bosses should be stronger, as when they are too strong, they become unenjoyable. Nobody wants to burn their entire wad in the bank on insurance due to instakill overpowered bosses...

Also, some bosses are already fairly rediculous in that you can have a whole bunch of people pounding it seemingly forever and it just won't go down. Stygian Dragon can be annoying already. Now while I will say that I have solo'd the thing a couple times, it's probably not something I'll repeat simply because it takes forever. On good RNG it can occasionally hit you with a special, which dismounts you, and then it kills you with a single bite, or an earthquake. Sometimes the hit damage overlaps as it rises over your head. Of course it's somewhat more survivable with feint up, but it's very difficult to balance the mana issue if you are running feint, so people tend to joust it. In a party situation, its way more unpredictable, as it changes targets frequently. This results in a lot of bodies littering the ground. In this case, less is more. A 2 player group is ideal, a mystic mage discorder and a sampire. Good balance.

I really don't think they need to do much of anything, to be honest. That a sampire can solo some things shouldn't affect anyone's enjoyment of the game at all. People pretty much go on enjoying the things that they do, and not worrying about what they don't. I know that there are 2 player groups that can take Scalis down pretty quickly, where my sampire couldn't stand toe to toe with it for 20 seconds, but it doesn't affect me.

I admit to never doing a paragon greater dragon, but I have done all of the champ spawns, and almost all of the peerless bosses (minus mel, but mostly cause I do that with other people) and I have not done doom on a sampire, but all of the rest of the stuff is fairly easy on a sampire and I prefer some challenges, I don't really mind dying....prefer it if I don't but not at the cost of my personal "fun level".

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Ahh, for me, I like to get into nearly impossible situations, and somehow manage to come out the other side vertical, so I share your appreciation of challenges. I die all the time, as a direct result of how I play, so I'm no stranger to death, and it doesn't affect my fun level. But, what would directly affect my fun level is taking a downward plunge in what I consider "nearly impossible". Which is to say getting nerfed. Now, I don't consider several lich lords and several rotting corpses to be unwinnable, merely challenging. If I had to downgrade to liches and skeletal knights kicking my butt, there goes my fun level. I know my mage couldn't take that kind of workload, but I don't mind, because it's an entirely different build, with a completely different style of play, and not comparable as apples to apples.

I know you aren't on this bandwagon, Cloak, but this is just a thought for those who are:

It seems easy for those who don't have or don't enjoy playing sampires or try to directly compete against them to harbor malice towards them and take a dark glee in other's fun level dropping... But I think it's kind of sick, to be honest, to delight in causing or contributing to the misfortune of others. Would they have the same feelings if the shoe was on the other foot? I think not.

Why should those without sampires want them nerfed? Isn't it healthier for them to live and let live?

Also, some bosses are already fairly rediculous in that you can have a whole bunch of people pounding it seemingly forever and it just won't go down. Stygian Dragon can be annoying already. Now while I will say that I have solo'd the thing a couple times, it's probably not something I'll repeat simply because it takes forever. On good RNG it can occasionally hit you with a special, which dismounts you, and then it kills you with a single bite, or an earthquake. Sometimes the hit damage overlaps as it rises over your head. Of course it's somewhat more survivable with feint up, but it's very difficult to balance the mana issue if you are running feint, so people tend to joust it. In a party situation, its way more unpredictable, as it changes targets frequently. This results in a lot of bodies littering the ground. In this case, less is more. A 2 player group is ideal, a mystic mage discorder and a sampire. Good balance.

Why should those without sampires want them nerfed? Isn't it healthier for them to live and let live?

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I agree some things in game are quite retarded, but because of their damage output rather than their ability to take damage. And I just feel that the game loses it's status as Multiplayer the more and more people grow towards the mentality of solo-play. I am not against people who wish to play that way exactly, I just feel as if as a player base people are growing apart and are more and more detached from one another, along with that comes greed and just less of a community so to speak. While I do not think nerfing is generally a good idea, I will never speak out against it if it seemingly has the effect of creating community, or increasing player interaction, promoting helping others, things like that.

I have had templates that I enjoy not because of their power but just because I like them since AoS launch, and have not changed a single skill on some of them since then despite taking various hits and nerfs, (although granted I have changed a few items on one since some nerfs left "excess" mods...) I will admit the current proposed changes are leaving me with a feeling of having to change some of those templates, but I will accept most of them as they are positive changes even though people do see them as nerfs I see them as a step in creating something better, although it is not apparent at first glance (chiv changes seemed kind of random to me, but hoping they keep up the work and things eventually make more sense)

Over all they still need some looking at and some consideration, and people need to complain less about certain things (apple timers for one, I mean seriously they were 2 minutes long and no PvM person ever complained that was to long but now 45 seconds is killer? -.-) And I have gotten off topic for this thread, oh well basic message is anything that could be good for community building I am for, anything that detracts from that makes me sad.....but maybe I have been playing this game to long to have an unbiased opinion, can't say for sure.

With Lightning Strike becoming a 10 Mana ability, it will become extremely inefficient. At 120.0 Bushido, Lightning Strike has a 20% chance to do a Critical. That's about 1/5 Lightning Strikes, excluding lucky RNG strings. Armor Ignore has a 100% chance of ignoring Resists, and costs 20 Mana. MUCH more efficient. The only thing that Lightning Strike would have over AI, is that it's Mana cost doesn't double when chained. But, LS will be so mana inefficient compared to AI, that even a chained AI might be more efficient.

The penalties for special moves such as block which affect stats like hci are a reduction to the effective value. You can get around the penalties by using items which put you over the cap. (Similar to hit lower defense/attack effects).