I admit defeat...I can't be arsed searching through hundreds of posts. What about an implication that he's lost his job because he was incompetent? There's certainly no mention of him being replaced because he was on paternity leave.

WeThere was plenty of mention straight after Singapore, and particularly in the main McLaren car thread, and any posts referring to the contrary were generally theories as to why he was away so long not that he had ever been fired.

Ah yes, interesting. Because if that happens the only reason would be because he was incompetent and certainly not for a myriad of other reasons? Or am I reading too much into the combination of this and your last quote and you actually meant it in a different way?

Well if Temple is Lewis' race engineer for the final two races those 'myriad of other reasons', which probably exist somewhere alonside your Hamilton fan quotes, are imo likely to be less plausible than the idea that for some reason the Latham-Hamilton relationship never seemed to be as solid or as good as the Prew Hamilton relationship that proceeded it. From the various Hamilton outbursts on the radio about not receiving enough information at various races, to Lathams seemingly out of touch robotic responses, ability to deal with high pressure situations, or relaying the wrong information which was filtered through to Lewis, when Jenson was given the right info (particularly in regards to weather). A poor relationship has been noted both by Hamilton and non Hamilton fans

For example in this thread from the beginning of the current seasons about race engineers: who would you choose (taking onboard the op was asking which would you prefer, not which would you not want to have :

.Disappointing race engineer for me is Andy Latham for Lewis, sounds panicky in tense moments, sounds too frightened to give Lewis bad news or to give him any news in certain moments, number of times last year Lewis had asked what was going on because no one was talking to him, and they just don't gel like him and Phil Prew used to, he's losing out in that area vs Jenson and it clearly shows with the frustrating radio calls. I think a reshuffle is in order, it would be nice to have the successful Phil/Lewis combo back but the way they have structured that control centre I don't see it happening.

Yeah Andy Latham sucks a lot. He's useless.

Even good old Tommy

I agree that Lewis RE isn´t as good as others, but, they are all good.

Re Latham He really caught my eye last year when during one of the practises, he was shown on camera chatting and smiling with someone else (off camera? ). Immediately he realised he was on the air the way he turned back to his screens and began to pretend to be working you would have thought he was committing the crime of the century – surely exchanging greetings with someone is not a hanging offence or a negative reflection on one’s competence. It was such a ridiculous over reaction that it got me concerned about his competence in terms why he thought such a childish reaction would fool anyone and why he felt he had to make that move in the first instance, even as the action did not relate to his job.Since keeping an eye on him i have the impression that while he may good in some aspects (well he must have to have met the criteria for selection as a race engineer mustn’t he and to be fair he comes across better during practices and qualifying), he does struggle to react in real time and is very weak in strategising – either a lack of ability in this area or a lack of assertiveness and confidence (whenever Jensen and Lewis are close together in the race then Lewis loses out and i suspect that it may be because Latham waits to hear from strategy team to make or backup decisions. He also cannot multi-task effectively -Was it japan qualifying when they got Lewis car out at the right time but still did not make the time? Whitmarsh had had to intervene to warn about the risk from the cars behind because Latham was just focussed on the question of time gap to the car in front and was not AWARE himself.

for Lewis I would have liked him to keep Jakob. if Mclaren want him to do well they should provide mentoring support to Latham or give him a competent non-English engineer - non english so that the pundits and media stop overanalysing communications in terms of how offended THEY, themselves are, while pouring over every word uttered during races& stop with all this "take your engineer down to the pub" nonsense.

I think A Latham does indeed not gel well with Lewis and i thought it was clear that this pairing does not work so i'm still wondering how come he hasn't been swapped out already.

I get the impression Andy Latham seems scared of telling Lewis bad things "OK Lewis we need to to slow down or look after the tyres", as if he's expecting a verbal volley in return. Given he would've looked after some serious drivers in his time at Mclaren I'm sure its just his method but I always get the impression he's like a pupil talking to a headteacher.

IMO Dave Robson seems great. Latham seems all wrong for Lewis. But both drivers said they weren't listened to at Barca and the engineers insisted on undergearing them both.

Phil Prew! Shame he is not Lewis´s RE anymore! Those were the days!

Very much agree about Lewis' guy as well.. sounds too scared of Lewis to give him the information he requires in "crunch time" high pressure situations.

Of course from my rather limited perspective I could be completely wrong, but if Temple were to fully replace Latham, I'd hardly see it as opposing my opinion, infact the opposite unless facts came to light completely contradicting me.

Well, I never understood how people apparently can tell that Latham was crap as Hamiltons RE.

Other than some people plucked the idea out of the air and then it snowballed (*), becoming yet another part of the folklore how Hamilton is denied world domination by factors outside his control.

The armchair quotes in your post above illustrate that process very well. Someone throws the idea in, and then it's repeated endlessly for covenience reasons, without anything substantial ever entering the 'discussion'.

unless you bring something substantial to the topic of evaluating a RE, or how to compare them with one another, all you say is just a hollow critique used as a pretext to introduce the hamilton bashing again.please...

unless you bring something substantial to the topic of evaluating a RE, or how to compare them with one another, all you say is just a hollow critique used as a pretext to introduce the hamilton bashing again.please...

Wut?

That's precisely my point, there is nothing of substance for us to pass judgement on race engineers. So how do so many people apparently figure he's crap?

That's precisely my point, there is nothing of substance for us to pass judgement on race engineers. So how do so many people apparently figure he's crap?

nobody has said he is crap, or the worst of all or anything like that, that is just exaggerating. i think most of the complaints touch the subject of the nature of the dialogue between the two. because im sure you will agree that there are drivers out there who are more comfortable or closer to their race engineers and others who are less so.indeed, we can't judge the whole information exchanged between the driver and the race engineer, or how valuable it is, we're only offered bits and pieces, but we can interpret the dialog we do hear and most people would come to the conclusion that a driver sometimes feeling lost on track and a monotonous sounding RE regardless of the situation, is not indicative of a productive relationship.

Well if Temple is Lewis' race engineer for the final two races those 'myriad of other reasons', which probably exist somewhere alonside your Hamilton fan quotes, are imo likely to be less plausible than the idea that for some reason the Latham-Hamilton relationship never seemed to be as solid or as good as the Prew Hamilton relationship that proceeded it. From the various Hamilton outbursts on the radio about not receiving enough information at various races, to Lathams seemingly out of touch robotic responses, ability to deal with high pressure situations, or relaying the wrong information which was filtered through to Lewis, when Jenson was given the right info (particularly in regards to weather). A poor relationship has been noted both by Hamilton and non Hamilton fans

For example in this thread from the beginning of the current seasons about race engineers: who would you choose (taking onboard the op was asking which would you prefer, not which would you not want to have :

Of course from my rather limited perspective I could be completely wrong, but if Temple were to fully replace Latham, I'd hardly see it as opposing my opinion, infact the opposite unless facts came to light completely contradicting me.

AFAIK I don't think I've expressed at any point any opinion on the job he's doing so I'm not quite sure what point you're making there. 10/10 for the research though.

My point was that you implied that he'd been replaced because of his poor performance when in fact he'd been on paternity leave. I then had an issue with you already excitedly drawing conclusions about a potential future absence for which there could be a number of reasons but that you completely failed to entertain.

nobody has said he is crap, or the worst of all or anything like that, that is just exaggerating. i think most of the complaints touch the subject of the nature of the dialogue between the two. because im sure you will agree that there are drivers out there who are more comfortable or closer to their race engineers and others who are less so.indeed, we can't judge the whole information exchanged between the driver and the race engineer, or how valuable it is, we're only offered bits and pieces, but we can interpret the dialog we do hear and most people would come to the conclusion that a driver sometimes feeling lost on track and a monotonous sounding RE regardless of the situation, is not indicative of a productive relationship.

Monotonous voice, right, that's the quality of indications that is used to decide there is a problem with Hamiltons RE. Versus, for example, Button getting lost on setup for a third of the season happens without any noticeable no. of his fans ganging up to blame the RE.

Monotonous voice, right, that's the quality of indications that is used to decide there is a problem with Hamiltons RE. Versus, for example, Button getting lost on setup for a third of the season happens without any noticeable no. of his fans ganging up to blame the RE.

Because Button put his hands up and said it was he who chose the set-up path........

Seeing that your favourite driver is Button I think you need to learn the meaning of irony. Then read my post again.BTW I've just ignored you.

Your statement wasnt ironic at all - and thats a poor quality excuse to justify a poor quality comment. Your statement was wrong - its as simple as that really.

--------

As for the RE debate - Latham probably isnt the best out there, however I think for every bit that Latham is a bad communicator Lewis is just as bad too - that compunds the percieved problems*.

Has anyone considered at all that the 'problems' with Latham stems from Hamilton? No. Why not? Lewis himself is not known as a good communicator so its a glaring oversight to not consider that some of the problem may come from his side of the partnership.

* - I say percieved problems because I dont know if there is a problem TBH, it could be in the head of Hamilton fans when in fact its not even unusual - we have also seen Raikkonen and Vettel also having moments with their RE's lately.

Its an interesting point to debate, but I have no interest in sitting round blaming Latham for all the problems and saying he should be sacked.

That "somebody" is me.. I have never understood this overall points thing, because each season is different with different conditions. The points in a season is the best instrument(with this system) we have to tell who won the battle.

Nice one revlec... though I was talking about the performances rather than the points... per se... Still, to take nothing away: Good logic!

Superb post, only truncated to save space and to ask whether you are awarding lewis this season on performance or whether it would be 2-1 to JB if he overttok Lewis over the next 3 races?

Thanks. Clever question (squeaky bum time).

Don't tell 'im Rinehart ;)

Looks for exit...

That someone, as you can see, was revlec, he proposes that points over the season are the best barometer. Do you agree or do you think that Hamilton has won already?

Nice one Lazy, whose side are you on!

Not a bad way of looking at it I must admit

Good post and I think it sums up the feelings of most of the Button fans on this thread.

I concur, a very good post by Rinehart. I'm looking forward to 2013 and I wish both drivers the best of luck.

Cheers.

Good mood installed. robefc, here's your answer: Hamilton is the winner of 2012 battle with JB now, whatever happens in the last 2 races, because we'd still look back on the WHOLE season and judge Hamilton was better, without getting the calculator or the crystal ball out. Just as, at a glace, its quite obvious that JB was better in 2011, by a similar degree, albeit in a totally different way. (I'm loving the tennis analogy by the way, I can see the "Aces" served being Poles, not necessarily converted into games won....). So 2010 was the "decider" it turns out and that was by 1 race after JB had jumped into a new team in the winter.

Final score: 7-5, 4-6, 6-3. A good, close battle in other words. Enough for me to think JB is right up there, Hamilton still has it and that both can win the title again in the right circumstances. Effectively Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Button will probably all "lead" their teams for the next 2 or 3 years so game on as far as I'm concerned between the top 4.

Oh, I'll leave you with this, you always get one:

This thread is pointless, LH beats JB in every single way, race pace and qualy. This is simply not up for debate, its FACT.

Good mood installed. robefc, here's your answer: Hamilton is the winner of 2012 battle with JB now, whatever happens in the last 2 races, because we'd still look back on the WHOLE season and judge Hamilton was better, without getting the calculator or the crystal ball out. Just as, at a glace, its quite obvious that JB was better in 2011, by a similar degree, albeit in a totally different way. (I'm loving the tennis analogy by the way, I can see the "Aces" served being Poles, not necessarily converted into games won....). So 2010 was the "decider" it turns out and that was by 1 race after JB had jumped into a new team in the winter.

Final score: 7-5, 4-6, 6-3. A good, close battle in other words. Enough for me to think JB is right up there, Hamilton still has it and that both can win the title again in the right circumstances. Effectively Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Button will probably all "lead" their teams for the next 2 or 3 years so game on as far as I'm concerned between the top 4.

As i wrote before, Andy Latham is and always was schedule to return in Austin.
Nothing to read between the lines in this case
Hoping for a clean weekend on Lewis's side of garage, we know who will win the intrateam battle in that case ;)

Thats a bit of a worry then isnt it!! Considering points are in fact used to decide pretty much everything in F1, from Champions to financial hand outs, car numbers.....

to semi-quote kimi raikkonen: "yes yes yes yes, points are used to determine the performance of drivers all the time, you dont need to remind us every 10 seconds". especially in instances when your car breaks down from the lead, twice, after having dominated your teammate throughout the whole weekend, losing you 50 points. that is indeed a perfect way for your teammate to catch up with you. seriously, this thread has been over this subject 100 times.

Your statement wasnt ironic at all - and thats a poor quality excuse to justify a poor quality comment. Your statement was wrong - its as simple as that really.

--------

As for the RE debate - Latham probably isnt the best out there, however I think for every bit that Latham is a bad communicator Lewis is just as bad too - that compunds the percieved problems*.

Has anyone considered at all that the 'problems' with Latham stems from Hamilton? No. Why not? Lewis himself is not known as a good communicator so its a glaring oversight to not consider that some of the problem may come from his side of the partnership.

* - I say percieved problems because I dont know if there is a problem TBH, it could be in the head of Hamilton fans when in fact its not even unusual - we have also seen Raikkonen and Vettel also having moments with their RE's lately.

Its an interesting point to debate, but I have no interest in sitting round blaming Latham for all the problems and saying he should be sacked.

I have to agree with this. Admittedly the radio excerpts they play on TV are a fraction of the communications between driver and RE but I always got the sense that neither party was particularly helpful to the other. Latham didn't strike me as the type of forceful personality he probably needed to be to gain the respect of an alpha male like Hamilton. For that reason Hamilton seemed to jump down his throat a fair amount; the word 'disdain' is quite strong but at times it seemed to border on that. I can see how in that environment it might be difficult to maintain your composure if you're constantly terrified of getting an earful. Of course it is Latham's job to remain professional and not let the highly strung nature of an F1 driver disrupt his calm and ability to make decisions under pressure, but if he was slightly out of his depth in the first place I can see how Hamilton's dismissive attitude towards him might have magnified the problem.

I have to agree with this. Admittedly the radio excerpts they play on TV are a fraction of the communications between driver and RE but I always got the sense that neither party was particularly helpful to the other. Latham didn't strike me as the type of forceful personality he probably needed to be to gain the respect of an alpha male like Hamilton. For that reason Hamilton seemed to jump down his throat a fair amount; the word 'disdain' is quite strong but at times it seemed to border on that. I can see how in that environment it might be difficult to maintain your composure if you're constantly terrified of getting an earful. Of course it is Latham's job to remain professional and not let the highly strung nature of an F1 driver disrupt his calm and ability to make decisions under pressure, but if he was slightly out of his depth in the first place I can see how Hamilton's dismissive attitude towards him might have magnified the problem.

Problem is Lewis is a world-class driver with about 2 or 3 comparables, while Andy Latham is one race engineer (and not a great one at that) with thousands of peers.

Problem is Lewis is a world-class driver with about 2 or 3 comparables, while Andy Latham is one race engineer (and not a great one at that) with thousands of peers.

If Hamilton came into the relationship with that mentality it's easy to see why it didn't work. I agree that Latham is far more dispensable than Hamilton, and perhaps the problem is that both of them know it. Hamilton is uniquely gifted in lots of ways, I just don't think his interpersonal skills are necessarily one of those gifts. For the most part I really don't care how he acts outside the car; he is the driver I support because of what he does in the car. However, being able to build a good relationship with your race engineer is something that directly impacts on your success as a racing driver. I always got the sense that Latham was on edge around Hamilton and if that was still the case after almost three years then I have to think Hamilton could have done more to make him feel comfortable.

If Hamilton came into the relationship with that mentality it's easy to see why it didn't work. I agree that Latham is far more dispensable than Hamilton, and perhaps the problem is that both of them know it. Hamilton is uniquely gifted in lots of ways, I just don't think his interpersonal skills are necessarily one of those gifts. For the most part I really don't care how he acts outside the car; he is the driver I support because of what he does in the car. However, being able to build a good relationship with your race engineer is something that directly impacts on your success as a racing driver. I always got the sense that Latham was on edge around Hamilton and if that was still the case after almost three years then I have to think Hamilton could have done more to make him feel comfortable.

I think that Lewis can be come across as very aloof to his team. Hopefully with a fresh, less "stuffy" environment he'll relax a bit and drop some of that aspect of his game.

If Hamilton came into the relationship with that mentality it's easy to see why it didn't work. I agree that Latham is far more dispensable than Hamilton, and perhaps the problem is that both of them know it. Hamilton is uniquely gifted in lots of ways, I just don't think his interpersonal skills are necessarily one of those gifts. For the most part I really don't care how he acts outside the car; he is the driver I support because of what he does in the car. However, being able to build a good relationship with your race engineer is something that directly impacts on your success as a racing driver. I always got the sense that Latham was on edge around Hamilton and if that was still the case after almost three years then I have to think Hamilton could have done more to make him feel comfortable.

I get that but then why did Lewis have such a great relationship/smooth sailing with Phil Prew and it seemingly all became worse with Latham? Maybe they (Latham and Hamilton) are just incompatible. I find it a bit unfair that you seem to be piling all the blame on Lewis.

I've always thought the communcation between Latham and Hamilton has been pretty poor.

One thing that sticks in my mind of how bad Latham was operationally was during I think at Monaco where Hamilton was cruising around, Vettel came out of the pits about 1 metre or 2 in front of Hamilton.

Hamilton was furious because Latham gave no info on this and Hamilton said he could have sped up to get track position.

I think thats poor from Latham - he wasn't using the info at his disposal.

I've always thought the communcation between Latham and Hamilton has been pretty poor.

One thing that sticks in my mind of how bad Latham was operationally was during I think at Monaco where Hamilton was cruising around, Vettel came out of the pits about 1 metre or 2 in front of Hamilton.

Hamilton was furious because Latham gave no info on this and Hamilton said he could have sped up to get track position.

I think thats poor from Latham - he wasn't using the info at his disposal.

That really is a classic example. "You should have told me man" I believe was the retort from Lewis. However, in defence of Latham he is likely to be getting it in the ear from "Mission Control" in Woking at the same time. Probably makes for an uneasy situation - and pretty much stamps on any pragmatism that is sometimes needed in F1.

I've always thought the communcation between Latham and Hamilton has been pretty poor.

One thing that sticks in my mind of how bad Latham was operationally was during I think at Monaco where Hamilton was cruising around, Vettel came out of the pits about 1 metre or 2 in front of Hamilton.

Hamilton was furious because Latham gave no info on this and Hamilton said he could have sped up to get track position.

I think thats poor from Latham - he wasn't using the info at his disposal.

I get the impression that Andy doesn't always know whether to stick or twist, I'm fairly sure he's been rebuked by lewis for speaking at the wrong time too!

I think lewis is probably quite difficult to work with and needs the right type of person/the right relationship to make it work.

Of course for all we know they work brilliantly together but from what we can tell I doubt it.

I get that but then why did Lewis have such a great relationship/smooth sailing with Phil Prew and it seemingly all became worse with Latham? Maybe they (Latham and Hamilton) are just incompatible. I find it a bit unfair that you seem to be piling all the blame on Lewis.

Don't think he was piling all the blame on Lewis, but stating that he's partly culpable for it, which I agree with. However, I strongly believe it is the team's responsibility to get the most out of their drivers rather than the other way round, and the flaws in LH's personality can be worked around, he just needs the right partner, which as you rightly say he had in Phil Prew. Vettel sounds like the whiniest bitch on the planet sometimes on the radio, but Rocky keeps him under control because he talks to him like an equal and they have that obvious mutual respect. Certain drivers need more forceful personalities as engineers and Andy Latham simply wasn't that type.

I get that but then why did Lewis have such a great relationship/smooth sailing with Phil Prew and it seemingly all became worse with Latham? Maybe they (Latham and Hamilton) are just incompatible. I find it a bit unfair that you seem to be piling all the blame on Lewis.

That's exactly what I tried not to do; I think that would be just as silly as piling all the blame on Latham. I said in my original post: "I always got the sense that neither party was particularly helpful to the other." As you say I suspect they were just a bit incompatible. Latham seemed to frustrate Hamilton an undue amount, perhaps because he was too meek and didn't have the judgement to know when was the right time to question Hamilton, when to guide him or when to let him just get on with it. On the other hand, if someone doesn't want to let you in then it's harder to understand them and know their mind. We will never know who was to blame more or indeed if there was even a problem in the first place, but if there was, almost every other broken relationship would suggest they are both partly to blame.

Don't think he was piling all the blame on Lewis, but stating that he's partly culpable for it, which I agree with. However, I strongly believe it is the team's responsibility to get the most out of their drivers rather than the other way round, and the flaws in LH's personality can be worked around, he just needs the right partner, which as you rightly say he had in Phil Prew. Vettel sounds like the whiniest bitch on the planet sometimes on the radio, but Rocky keeps him under control because he talks to him like an equal and they have that obvious mutual respect. Certain drivers need more forceful personalities as engineers and Andy Latham simply wasn't that type.

I get the impression that Andy doesn't always know whether to stick or twist, I'm fairly sure he's been rebuked by lewis for speaking at the wrong time too!

I think lewis is probably quite difficult to work with and needs the right type of person/the right relationship to make it work.

Of course for all we know they work brilliantly together but from what we can tell I doubt it.

Its hard to be certain as we only hear snippets ... but I thought LH and Latham were finally starting to gel this season... I was actually sorry to see Latham go off - even if it was for a very positive reason for him.

A lot of the blame for how they sounded on the radio last season was LH's IMO .... I suspect LH was a nightmare to work with in 2011 ... and he did have his moments in 2010.

I think it's fairly obvious upon reading the whole article what the feature is implying, or are you being deliberately obstructive and allowing your personal bias to intrude on your opinion?

If you think young drivers (I would say MOST drivers) have scope to improve upon their driving standards then the article probably makes sense, if however you find zero fault in say Grosjean or Maldonado this season then perhaps you'll think it's crap.

I don't think Phil Prew struggled at all with Lewis from 2007 to 2009. Weird that signs of struggle only appeared when Latham took over?

Unsurprising, though, that you wouldn't give this any thought...

Well, he is apparently since then difficult to work with too, also car stupid etc, at least the paddock "media" says so.The allmighty credible F1 paddock media guys ...Nothing like his cerebral team "mate".

Button is the only man who could consistently struggle with set-up, and have a season like 2012 where it has consistently been shown his team-mate is better with the tyres, and still come out the other end with a reputation for great set-up and tyre abilities. Completely unscathed.

Brundle was talking to Whitmarsh and saying that with Perez they'll now be able to get money back from Pirelli as they have 2 tyre whisperers, implying two things; that Button is good with tyres, and that Hamilton is bad.

Complete nonsense, and embarassingly so for an expert who has watched this season.

Button is the only man who could consistently struggle with set-up, and have a season like 2012 where it has consistently been shown his team-mate is better with the tyres, and still come out the other end with a reputation for great set-up and tyre abilities. Completely unscathed.

Button is the only man who could consistently struggle with set-up, and have a season like 2012 where it has consistently been shown his team-mate is better with the tyres, and still come out the other end with a reputation for great set-up and tyre abilities. Completely unscathed.

Brundle was talking to Whitmarsh and saying that with Perez they'll now be able to get money back from Pirelli as they have 2 tyre whisperers, implying two things; that Button is good with tyres, and that Hamilton is bad.

Complete nonsense, and embarassingly so for an expert who has watched this season.

Button deserves to be questioned after this season, but instead he has escaped any negative press (can you imagine if Hamilton had this season? In fact, Hamilton's 2011 was better than Buttons 2012, and Hamilton has been destroyed for 2011).

Zero negative press, and he strolls on through with his reputation completely intact. And not even intact, in better shape according to Davidson: 'more than held his own'. Nonsense.

I know you agree that he deserves to be questioned at the very least, as thats what you did with Hamilton last season... and thats putting it mildly. So enough with the sarcastic 'you know more than Brundle' talk.

Button deserves to be questioned after this season, but instead he has escaped any negative press (can you imagine if Hamilton had this season? In fact, Hamilton's 2011 was better than Buttons 2012, and Hamilton has been destroyed for 2011).

Zero negative press, and he strolls on through with his reputation completely intact.

I know you agree that he deserves to be questioned at the very least, as thats what you did with Hamilton last season... and thats putting it mildly. So enough with the sarcastic 'you know more than Brundle' talk.

Did it cross your mind that they understand the circumstances and probably have questioned him about it?

They probably have good reasons for thinking the way they do.

But ofc you know so much better that you can make definitive, insulting comments like this:

Complete nonsense, and embarassingly so for an expert who has watched this season.