Tzig, please put this in its right place. you can add it to a post or make it a guest one...Feel free to edit...Just a rant from an old grouch, who saw and heard much from many different kraizen.I Watched the live feed of the siyum. Rabbi Ginzburgs marriv, what is the source for his emotional hysterical davening style? (Kvodo bimkomo munach-his sefer maharsha al hatorah is choshuv and lomdus, a very important contribution) It is a unique sociological phenomina, a hybrid american "yinglish" style.In Lita we never davened like that, not in Vilna,not in Telz, not in Brisk, Not Reb Chaim Oizer, not the other Rabbonim on his Beis din, Not Rav Bengis, Not Rav Bloch, Rav zacks, none of them. Correct me if I am wrong.The Hirschians did not daven like this, not the carlebachs, speigels, hirschs, cohens, any of the real Yekkeh families. Correct me if I am wrongIn Erets Yisroel, the miyuchasim in Bnei Brak and Yerushalayim did not Daven like this. Correct me if I am wrongDid any of the mussarniks daven like this? Granted some Chasidim davened with hispaylus although not in the hoifen of the mochendik litvish chasidim or Russian such as chabad. Kimdumani The old skverer (chernoble)davened very close to the lubavitch nusach. (Flavour and pronounciation of Russian chassidim).In Dokshitz, Klimovitch, Nevel, Kurnitze etc. the Marazovs, R Peretz Muchkin, R Leib Sheinin, R Itche Masmid, none of the giants davened like this.

As an Aside the truth is its all almost gone today. Lubavitch isnt the same, the frum sefardim changed, the old Nusach is almost gone. The Yekkes have assimilated into the Yeshivish Jews. The Yeshivish are hungarians and galicianers etc. Probaly 85-90 percent however descend from Chassidim. Not from Lita.Unlike Artscroll history... In Lita rov minyan were Mizrachi, Modern or secular 70 years ago. The chofetz Chaim WAS MOCKED IN VILNA!!! He needed to talk from behind a mechitsah... Speak to the oldtimers, there are almost none left...Almost nobody covered their hair including our gedolims wifes who went to theater with bochurim, while their husbands sat and learned. In fact if my memory serves me right, (correct me if I am wrong) but in vilna for a time the only Yeshivah (Ketanah?) was Lubavitch. The Brisker sent from brisk to learn in Tomchei tmimim In Poland, of Rayats. For Yiras Shomayim. I know names and family It was also considered top Yeshivah in poland for learning with the Roshei Yeshivah they had. I believe at least 80 percent of bochurim were not Chabad, and didnt become. I dont recall this clearly but it could be even more. They had a Mamor Dach under the Gemarah at seder Chassidus and when the Mashgiach came they would whip it out so not to get berated etc.. So let nobody spread the lies as if the hate was there. It Wasnt. Not with Reb Baruch Ber, not with the other Gedolim. Of course I am simplifiying somewhat, there were local politics and squibbles but over all what I am writing is historical fact. There were none of the divisions of later. Its all lies and distortians that this generation is being fed. And one of the biggest that was just rehashed on this blog. That the hate from A Rosh Yeshivah Bnei brak, to anything or anybody different then himwas a continuation of brisk. Sheker Vchazav. (As anyone close to the Brisker Rovs beis horav know only to well what they thought of of the hate machine... The source can be traced to somewere else, but kvod Elokim haster dovor) Only to the Americaner Yolden, or Israeli born and Bred Sabra can such a lie hold water. The "Litvisher Kanous" of Brisk was full of Chen and Ahavah to yidden ovdei hashem ohavei torashecha. Rabbi Shteinam is much closer to authentic brisk and lita in his way. Thats why they Dont like him. Even in Lakewood Reb Shneur Zatzal, didnt have the hate. Yes. There was a machlokes between Reb Aharon and the Rayatz in America.(They were both building Yeshivos, collecting money going to cities, hatzoloh etc. vain kan hamakom) but that was it. The rashag was at the Levayah wiith other Chasidei Chabad. Reb Aharon never said a word to his talmidim in the fifties about the Ramash who was then Rebbe. Even when talmidim traveled to 770. He was very respectful to the rashag at the meetings. Always wanted to know what was his opinion and if it cam from Ramash. Reb Shneur was in 770 once at a wedding. He publicly screamed Friday night at an avreich in the Yeshivah for mocking or throwing around Lekutei Sichos that were put in the Yeshivah by the lubavitcher bochurim from Crown Heights. (for those that remember, when the Avrech came to say Good shabbos in the line after Marriv.) He never said a bad word. Unlike his Son R malkiel that publiclly was mecharef umegadef on Rayats in Reb Shmiel Gross house in Toronto a few months ago. (it wa spublic so I can repeat it) Something that no Gedolim would of ever said in europe, not the soloveitchiks, or Reb chaim ozer or chafetz chayim or reb elchonon. But this proves the point. At the end of the day, Hes made in America...Sof dovor a yold blaybt a yold even if it puts on a hamburg, or lets out its kneitch and grows payos and lets out its beard and changes the pronounciation of an American reish to a guttural pseudo litvish reish.And we dont have any real leaders anymore!

Just got back from the siyum!Some quick thoughts and impressions.I really think Aguda pulled off an amazing show of achdus.Really.I saw all kinds of Jews, all backrounds.Chasidim, with large contingents of Belz and Ger I even saw a smattering of Lubavitchers, recognized R'Bogomilsky on the oiven on.Modern Orthodox anda lot of "amcha" Yidden.Since I traveled the old fashioned way with trains all the way from Boro Park,to Penn Station and than NJ Transit and back I got to schmooze with all kinds of interesting people including Lawrence,Flatbush,Crown Heights.What I felt most was the real feeling of achdus.Unfortunately,I have to say, that I was happy that the groups who don't like achdus and acceptance kept away.This venue was not the place for mecharcherei riv.Speakers:Rabbi Frand was just excellent.He is just a great speaker, with excellent toichen.Rabbi Scheiner was very good,he left an impression on me as a humble person with lots of toichen, but the hour was starting to get late.Rabbi Lau, the reason for some of the kanoim not coming,,and thank God for that ,did not speak as well as he can.Maybe because it was late and people were fatigued and nervous about missing the trains back home after the transportation announcements that people should leave by 11:30,(which was not true,I left at 12 and there were trains after me)Maybe because he was speaking English, maybe he hadbeen pressured to keep it short because of the late hour...Rabbi Olevsky representing the Yiddish speakers spoke quite well.Mistakes:Unfortunately, progran started late and ran late.The singing which was very uplifiting was to short and some of the derushes were to long.They should have shown some more sites from around America and the world.All in all it was a very positive experience, even including schlepping in trains with the rest of amcha yisroel

Are they going to recycle all the old self congradulatory articles from the previous siyumim just changing the details or will they write new ones?

Can someone please transalate the word achdus for me? Joining together temporarily for a shared common cause isn't achdus as far as I know. The differences remain and nothing has changed. If you help your shvartza neighbor shovel snow is that achdus or are you joined as neighbors clearing your sidewalk while remaining distinct? ...

No machlokes, public or private has ever been brought to shalom because of these kind of events, so where exactly is the shalom/achdus?

Gecko, du shreibst revisionist history from Lita, despite whatever details you did get right.

I am a real Litvisher. One of the few. My type didn't benefit from Eichmann's deal to let a million Hungarians live for coffee & sugar.

Rav Schach was forced to speak because Lubavitch changed for the worse. He also spoke against the letzonus that started in Brisk after R' Velvela.

Ken zein R' Shneur was upset about someone varfing a sicha but I heard from eidim who were in the room when R' Aron was shown the sicha in '52 that he became angry at what he read. That did not stop him from being a gentleman towards Lubavitch. I know about that also.

Why does Lubavitch translate every strong difference of opinion into "HATE"???? Satmar Rov was very upset about some psak of R' Moishe but was fort machshev him very much.

Rav Schach had two taynos. Ershtens, the Meshichistim are not acting like Yidden. Tzvaytens, there is a chiyuv al pi Rambam to speak against Meshichisten. The RARE time that happens in Lubavitch, oder zay ganvenen zein hoyzen fun mikva oder zay lachen oyf zay vee Rav Deutsch vos er iz a gornisht.

I was not at the siyum for personal reasons & because many Litvisher gedolim were against daf yomi. I don't know which Ginzberg you mean but I assume it is R' Lazer from the way you describe him. Why does it bother you so much how he davens?

Now let me fill you in on the background of R' Lazer. First of all he is a "tip" if you know him personally, so it is already not a kashya. 2nd of all, there are other baalei tefilla in the Mir like him that were influenced by R' Don Segal. That itself is sort of chassidish, and like everything else, there is a big chassidish influence in the yeshivishe velt today. It's our own version of the American melting pot. R' Don had to leave Mirrer Yeshiva becuase the Chassidus aspect was getting to be too much in other ways.

It's true that many yeshivos in Lita had very dry davening like you have today in Beis Hatalmud. But not everywhere. You could find hartzigga davening in Lita. Maybe it wasn't on steroids like R' Lazer, but you could find.

The machlokes over Rav Shteiman is mostly not about Lubavitch. Stop convincing yourselves the gantze velt revolves around you. It is very embarrassing though that my fellow Litvaks on the anti Rav Shteiman side are so petty & badly behaved.

LitvisherThank you for filling me in on Reb Lazer. I meant to ask in my post if they did this in Mir. I left that out. I didnt know what you wrote. I was not there at that tekufah. I am probally older then you.However with the other things you wrote I will take issue.Lets keep this respectful.I was trying to communicate a Litvisher thought process, and Idea, not speak about this one or that one.however I believe that What you are writing about Rav Shach is completly bogus. I wont go there though.(I can back that up with Incidents involving Him and Reb SZ aurbach, even the novominsker etc. but Why go there. lets not throw old mud around.) My point about Rav Shteinman. was totally not about chabad. It was about his approach to things in general, a tolerent way, in the middle my point about the old country, there was always different opinions. Some times strong. I think if i am not wrong an example of my point in America may be R Yakov Kaminetki. R' Yakovv K. Zatzal was authentic Lita. He was Rav in Mizrachi In Toronto, Rosh Yeshivah later, Agudah, always balanced, dissagreed with People on policy, had his differences with Lubavitch, but always a mentch and respectful. path-shvil hazahav. R moshe i dont have to tell you.So were does the discusting language come from. In our circles it did not exist in our parents times or before. Its a modern sabra and american phenomina. that was my point.

And by the the chofetz Chaim WAS MOCKED IN VILNA!!! He needed to talk from behind a mechitsah..

That was because he was giving a drosha to thousands of women to beg them to keep TM..Revel, that true and also because the way our mothers and grandmothers dressed and behaved in Lita.....

Litvisher"He also spoke against the letzonus that started in Brisk after R' Velvela."where are his mamshichie darkoi today... they were hammering for 3 decades Daas torah and hisbatlus to Daas Torah. now they are mocking it in print, in pashkevilan and in court...Rehi Mi Yulaad Es Ailea...

Litvisher"Rav Schach was forced to speak because Lubavitch changed for the worse."where was the change for the worse???? Even all the meshichistem are shomrie shabos and medakdek kala kebechamura....Where exactly was his Vieter Kook???He was a maniac hater and stop excusing him...so far his people are ruining all that was holy in the Misnagdic world... Torah is gone.. its all Hashkofa (term for charadie Fascism)Kevoid Hatorah is gone.. started out with Reb Ovadia ... now they are using all their hate talent on their own....

Litvisher"Why does Lubavitch translate every strong difference of opinion into "HATE"???? "Did Maran say by the big hatefest at the creation of his party... that Chabad are Menaschie Yayin... I read now all the hate pcs.. of his closest people that he was obsessed with his chabad rage... Don"t trust me, read their pamphlets...

Litvisher"Tzvaytens, there is a chiyuv al pi Rambam to speak against Meshichisten. "where is the Rambam exactly? there is a mitzva tochocha ... if there is a avira. Didn"t he write that Moshiach can not be a Bossur Vedom ( its printed in his Michtovim umamorim)

I am mid 40s. Over 30 years ago I was in a Lubavitch summer camp where half the yinglach came from a certain Litvish yeshiva. Just happened to work out that way. One of the rebbeim in the camp was already talking then "that some say the Rebbe is Moshiach".

When I was learning in Lakewood over 20 years ago, the bochurim bain hasedorim were calling up Buttman's hotline for either shock factor or entertainment factor to hear him rave like a lunatic, especially one line in particular.

Someone said R' Leizer is on steroids? Buttman sounded like he had an injection of anabolic steroids directly into his vindpipe when he shreyed "Yechee Adoinainu Moirainu vRabbainu Melech Hamoshiach lOilom Voed!" Anabolic is the high strength steroids that is administered to a ferd.

Aid Echod"I heard Buttman's fruitcake outbursts when Gulf War I broke"are you talking about the event that Maran said with his vaiter blick before the war that we are getting another shoah...and the Lubacvicher Rebbe said to have faith and eretz yisroe will go thru unharnmed...Who exactly is the fruit cake..talking about the Vieter kook fruit cake...after all went thru nice and peacefully, the Misnagdic revisionist produced some books that Maran always said the opposite.....

Maran's faculties started severely dimming about two years after the war.

I don't deny Maran was in warning mode. Who denies it or did you just make that up? I don't understand how the Rebbe could have said such a thing to sit there jolly according to any mon deomar of Chazal or Rishonim. It was an aiss tzoro of weapons of mass destruction pointed at klal Yisroel. The halacha is like the Rambam vos me darft veinen tzum Eibishter.

What do you think happened in WWII? As the gedolim pointed out, UK's General Montgomery & a small number of troops were about to be completely overrun by a horde of Nazi Panzers only 12 miles from Eretz Yisroel. The oylam davened their kishkas out which is the only explanation why Field Marshall Rommell ordered the Afrika Korps to turn around for no apparent reason.

Fast forward fuftzig yor, do you know how hard the oylam was davening? While they were guzzling vodka in 770 and humming along with Herman, they were zogging Tehillim around the clock in the oylam hayeshivos. They heard us in Himmel.

"Fast forward fuftzig yor, do you know how hard the oylam was davening? While they were guzzling vodka in 770 and humming along with Herman, they were zogging Tehillim around the clock in the oylam hayeshivos. They heard us in Himmel."

Not sure what happened in 770 Butin Los Angeles at the time the entire Chabad was davening with everyone else. Just to let you know.

Bitochen is avvada a Yiddishe concept but it does not go azoy veit to exempt from tzeoka & bechiya where necessary

I am glad to hear that Chabad in LA joined Klal Yisroel in giving it all they had in tefilla. Chabad in LA was grada always viewed in the oylam hayeshivos as bonafide due to the hashpoah of R' Elchonon's son and the Shochets. So for all the anti-snag "haters" out there, you should know that every time Chabad LA came up wherever I was, our rebbeyim were not one bad word, only positive.

"What do you think happened in WWII? As the gedolim pointed out, UK's General Montgomery & a small number of troops were about to be completely overrun by a horde of Nazi Panzers only 12 miles from Eretz Yisroel. The oylam davened their kishkas out which is the only explanation why Field Marshall Rommell ordered the Afrika Korps to turn around for no apparent reason."do you have documents to show that the crying of the Kishkes is a fact.. or not some Pesach Krohn baba masseh..I know that the Jews in Palestine did not believe all that happened in Europe...by the famous event in the Churva shul the Belzer ruvs brother was describing the churban in details to a skeptic crowd....

it is not from Paysach Krohn (that is funny). In Gateshead they said it bshaim gedolim

Maybe it was hard at first to believe that on mainland Europe the Nazis were going to in gantzen exterminate millions of Yidden. Even logistically it is not easy. But everyone knew when the Nazis were within only 12 miles of Eretz Yisroel.

Besides, even for mainland Europe I'm sure many would believe it because there was a mesorah from the Vilna Gaon & R' Yaakov Emden that Germany is Amalek. R' Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld also said it befarhesya before the war.

I don't mind reading some debating with Lubavitchers who know their stuff, but Tomashover is just an ignorant fruitcake repeating mindless drivel.Or maybe he is just a young teenager, who has not yet developed thinking skills.Whatever the case:If he "believes" that Mesechisten are ok, there is very little common ground.In my book the second one has to get into an argument if the Meshichist "ideology" is ok, it's the same file as the good fellas who believe Elvis is still around.

eli"In my book the second one has to get into an argument if the Meshichist "ideology" is ok, it's the same file as the good fellas who believe Elvis is still around."Who is Elvis??? did he say Some Ried on the Yeshiveshe Masechtos? was Elvis Rachmona Litzlan a Ungarisher?

Hirshel,I"m sorry for being negative and castigating a poster.I was reading a dialogue between two respectful debaters, when along come a fella, and like a katz,shpringt arayn in zauer milech, and ruins any civil discussion with his tipshes, and repeating the same old nonsense which has been repeated ad nauseam, and he does it all the time.

HirshelI would recommend to rid your site from all low IQ idiots and give a platform only for the intelligentsia as Eli and his buddies that have common ground with any concept that the Pustakes decided are facts....

The sicha in 1952... wasn't that the first one that was published by Kehos or a forerunner? It was at the same time the Brisker Rov was shown the sicha. He also was not pleased and uttered a very harsh comment. I won't repeat the first two words that he said here because it might set off the dritter velt's milchomo, but he said it is obvious to him from the sicha - even as vague as it was in 1952 before even Lubavitch had a meshichist musag - that the Rebbe alayn maynt az er iz Moshiach.

The Rebbe finally approved of the delaration that he was Messiah at a public talk on the 6th of Iyar 1991 when young Rabbi Dovid Nachshon and others repeated "Yechi". And 9 days later on the 15th of Iyar the Rebbe for the first time encouraged the singing of "Yechi", the slogan about the Rebbe being the Messiah."

Source: The Revelation of Melech HaMashiach, published by The Committee for Fulfilling the Rebbe's Directives

Tzig, who are the people on this committee? Are they recognized by Chabad?

According to anthropologist Robert Eisenberg, Satmar hold extremely hostile views towards the Lubavitchers in general viewing them as "damaged goods" and "idolaters" on account of their beliefs concerning Rabbi Schneerson. He notes that following Rabbi Schneerson's death, the Rebbe of Satmar commented "Now we have to wait for the real Messiah."

Robert Eisenberg, Boychiks in the Hood: Travels in the Hasidic Underground (HarperCollins, 1995), pp. 14–15, 232.

tomashover:B'oznay shomati HRH"Ch R' SB Kalmanson shlitah, shliach of the Rebbe to Cincinnati, say over the story with the Brisker Rov. Naturally, he slightly modified the 'first 2 words' and his point was to berate his fellow chassidim who feel that they can't shrei that the Rebbe ackknowledged his meshichistveh. If a chossid and a shliach said over the mayseh, you're gonna say it's sheker?

Rabbi Aharon Kotler, rosh yeshiva of Kletzk and the Lakewood Yeshiva in New Jersey, was severely critical of Lubavich, in part because of the extreme emphasis on messianism evident even in the early 1950s.

- The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference by David Berger, 2001, published by the Littman Library of Jewish Civilization of Portland. Page 7.

OMG!!!! OH EM GEE!!!! Hershel did you delete your last post??? Im in total shock. If Im not mistaken this is the first time in Tzigvill history that that has happened. No? Why? Why did you do that? Were you threatened? please fill us in.

Fact Checker"The Messiah of Brooklyn: Understanding Lubavitch Hasidim Past and Present, M. Avrum Ehrlich, ch.9 notes, KTAV Publishing, ISBN 0-88125-836-9"my friend a book with a ISBN can also talk nonsense and hal baked truths...Who is his source for the Brisker Ruv talking about the Mamar?The first time this lie was concoted, was in the years of 88 89.... does this author with a ISBN number have other sources... give us the facts Mr. Fact Checker..

Fact Checker"The Messiah of Brooklyn: Understanding Lubavitch Hasidim Past and Present, M. Avrum Ehrlich, ch.9 notes, KTAV Publishing, ISBN 0-88125-836-9"my friend a book with a ISBN can also talk nonsense and hal baked truths...Who is his source for the Brisker Ruv talking about the Mamar?The first time this lie was concoted, was in the years of 88 89.... does this author with a ISBN number have other sources... give us the facts Mr. Fact Checker..

L'toeles harabim: If your ears are still ringing from the Guantanamo bayVOLUME of the last hour of the siyum hashas, take a ball of cotton and soak it in soy sauce and put it in your ear. If you're lazy (like I was), you can use the same cotton for the second ear. You'll smell like a sushi bar but it's worth it.

When Yankel Pfefferkorn was on the bris and levaya circuit, he was not one to shy away from gently guiding the speaker in the proper usage of the microphone.Oy, where have you gone, Reb Yankel Pfefferkorn, the oilam turns our shattered eardrums to you...I just him in Lakewood minyan on Tisha b'av. By the way, who chose the color coding scheme for the seforim there---I felt like I was in a Turkish bazaar.

Drekk mit Fefferthe Chabad Rebiem after they arrived to the USA changed their policy regarding all this party,labels and affiliations in world Jewry, the frierdike Rebbe met twice reb Itche Mier Levin and Menachem Porush in 770 and discussed askunas matters..this keeping up hatreds just for the sake of hate is not the Lubavich thing to do.. its the satmar way...

Fact confuser"Rabbi Aharon Kotler, rosh yeshiva of Kletzk and the Lakewood Yeshiva in New Jersey, was severely critical of Lubavich, in part because of the extreme emphasis on messianism evident even in the early 1950s"Reb aron rift with the Frierdike Rebbe had no relation with anything pertaining Moshiach...Is Daviv Berger a typical yeshiveshe guy.....

David Berger is a professor in YU and also a modern orthodox leaning rabbi with membership in the OU's RCA. The few Chabadskers enrolled in YU filed official complaints with Chancellor Richard Joel when Berger was hired because they felt that the US Constitution does not protect free speech when that free speech is critical of Chabad.

Geck said.... There was a machlokes between Reb Aharon and the Rayatz in America.(They were both building Yeshivos, collecting money going to cities, hatzoloh etc. vain kan hamakom) but that was it. The rashag was at the Levayah wiith other Chasidei Chabad. Reb Aharon never said a word to his talmidim in the fifties about the Ramash who was then Rebbe. Even when talmidim traveled to 770. He was very respectful to the rashag at the meetings. Always wanted to know what was his opinion and if it cam from Ramash.

It is well known in Lubavitch that Reb Aharon did not allow vaad hatzolo money to buy food for the Lubavicher yeshiva boys in Shanhai, China during the war because they were "not yeshiva leit". So they starved worse than the Mir yeshiva. Any 'respect' he had for the Rebbes needs to be taken in that light.

An alter Lubavitcher who learned in Litvishe yeshivos was telling people for years that there are taynos on the Tiktiner Rov for the way he handled Hatzolah money. He would not elaborate. Now I get it that he is talking about this supposed starvation of Lubavitchers in Shangchai.

You Lubavitcher baloney artists can't even get your fantasies straight. Was it R' Avrohom oder R' Aron? And what's the latest manufactured "death toll" of how many Lubavitchers supposedly "starved to death"?

Your version of hate when directed against Litvaks is worse than anything from Misnagdim

"It is well known in Lubavitch that Reb Aharon did not allow vaad hatzolo money to buy food for the Lubavicher yeshiva boys in Shanhai, China during the war because they were "not yeshiva leit". So they starved worse than the Mir yeshiva"

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About Me

א יונגערמאן אין עולם הזה trying to do what's right. The purpose of this blog was to provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing that is so prevalent in blogosphere. I hope I've accomplished that objective. This is the blog for you if you have a decent knowledge of Jewish history and current events.