Tuesday, July 16, 2019

Starviego writes...

James Dinwiddie, Friend to Gary Hinman, Suggests New Theory of Motive in his Murder

This man claims he knew Hinman back in the summer of '69, and this is what he says about the interactions between Hinman and the Family:https://buddhajim.com/2014/01/30/how-i-met-buddha-the-untold-story-of-the-manson-family-murders/(from January 30, 2014)Excerpt:"Gary informed me... This (Manson) gang had been extorting things – food, cars, money – from his isolated neighborhood in the name of “peace and love”. These freeloading “flower children” were especially interested in his VW minibus, and had somehow concluded that he “owed” it to them. That’s what the heated discussion was all about. ...."Gary waged a campaign in the neighborhood to end the commune’s constant panhandling, going through garbage cans, expecting handouts and outright gifts of things like cars and clothes, and otherwise demanding that the community accept their “everything belongs to everyone” attitude. According to Gary, they were quite criminal in their behavior, and he was trying to get people to stop supporting them with extorted guilty gifts. ..."Gary and his neighbor were discussing the ongoing problem of the commune at the Spahn ranch, and the neighbor let me know that Charlie’s “family” had threatened to burn Gary’s house down and destroy him as part of their apocalyptic fantasy."So the motive was then revenge for Hinman's trash-talking of the Family. This sounds much better as a plausible motive than the 'bad drugs' or 'inheritance theory' that we hear of.His account first appeared in a book he wrote-The Johari Mirror and Other Stories--copywrighted in 2006. Why has it taken so long for us to hear this version? The detectives would certainly have discovered this feud between Gary and the Mansonoids. Why cover it up? I suspect the reason is to hide an even more shocking fact: that Gary Hinman went to the sheriff's deputies with his concerns. Which means of course that Charlie would have been Suspect #1 after Hinman's body was discovered on July 31, 1969.

Police noticed Hinman's stolen red VW van at Spahns when they did their July 27, 1969 mini-raid.Sanders' The Family, pg250"When they called in the license number and it came back as belonging to Hinman, one of the officers said: "Hey, I know Hinman; he must be out here visiting."Did this officer know Hinman because he helped handle the alleged original Hinman complaint?

Author Ed Sanders claims Hinman got an oblique death threat from Charlie just days before he was killed:The Family, pg243"About four days before Gary Hinman was murdered, (his friend)Eric ... visited Hinman's house at 964 Old Topanga Canyon Road. When he entered the small hillside house he found Gary Hinman on the phone, arguing with Manson. He says: "When I came into the house they were arguing. ....they were in a heated discussion... I talked to Gary afterwards to verify what Charlie said-- He said, you know, like it's your last chance, Gary. And Gary responded to that: "I'm sorry, Charlie, I'm not going to sell all my things and come and follow you.' Those were his exact words."And so Charlie said, in response to that, that he couldn't be responsible then for the karma that Gary was going to incur. He then reiterated that it was his last chance. And Gary said, 'I'll decide.... I'll take care of my own karma.' "This new theory of motive also lines up with accounts that show that Charlie had already made up his mind to kill Hinman before there was talk of getting any money:www.cielodrive.com/updates/coming-january-13th-14th-audio-archives-danny-decarlo-interviewed-by-the-los-angeles-county-sheriffs-department/Danny DeCarlo:"And that was the idea. Get everything he owned. ‘Cause they talked about him before, as being a Political Piggy. See, a political fuck up. “Gary’s fucked up in his head, he’s a pig, he’s gotta go. He’s just like society, part of society, so let’s get rid of him. First lets get his money.”web.archive.org/web/20140209204015/http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/true-detective-1970.2881/DeCarlo said that for several days before the death of Hinman he had overheard conversation between Beausoleil and Manson in which they referred to Hinman as a "political pig who should die."The Family, by Ed Sanderspg243"On Thursday, July 24, Manson sent Ella Bailey aka Ella Sinder, over to Gary Hinman's house to get the money and then to kill him. Miss Sinder had been a close friend of Hinman. Although she was a long-time Manson follower, she was not willing to snuff anybody for him."www.cielodrive.com/People-V-Manson-Vol-33.pdf"Miss Bailey, directing your attention to this occasion when you were at the campsite in Devil's Canyon, in the latter part of July, 1969, during that conversation--during the one in which you suggested Gary Hinman's name as somebody who might come with the Family... ...was there any conversation or any statements made during that conversation at the campsite .. in which someone said.. that Gary Hinman was to be killed?"(Ella Jo denied it, but clearly the investigators had received info that such a conversation had occurred.)Child of Satan, Child of God by Atkins, Susan, with Slosser, Bob (1977). Plainfield, NJ: Logos International. pp. 94–120... Manson directly told Beausoleil, Brunner, and her to go to Hinman's and get the supposed inheritance—$21,000. She(Sadie) said Manson had told her privately, two days earlier, that, if she wanted to "do something important", she could kill Hinman and get his money.murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&what_all=%22Juan+Flynn%22&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0&search=SearchPAUL WATKINS, My Life With Charles Manson, Chapter Eight"Bobby ... in the summer of 1969, when he came for the last time, his welcome was worn out. He told Charlie he’d do anything for the Family; that’s when Charlie told him: “Then you know what to do with Gary Hinman.” Hinman had been an acquaintance of Charlie’s, a musician who had apparently owed Charlie money and had refused to pay it back. Two weeks later, Gary Hinman was dead."

51 comments:

That makes sense, Manson was pissed at Hinmen. I suspect the LaBianca murders were because Manson was pissed and Leno LaBianca either for calling the cops on them at Harold True's house, or for running the girls out of the dumpsters at his super markets. The Tate murders were probably because Manson was pissed at Terry Meclher. Manson was a dirty dude, if someone pissed him off, he was going to get "even". Most "normal" people don't go to the extent he did, but there are nasty people in the world that will kill you for nothing, prisons are full of them.

I don't know how bad Manson wanted Hinman's stuff, I think one person said they seen Hinman's bagpipes at Spahn. I doubt if anyone in the Manson family even knew what bagpipes were, let alone knew how to play them. Manson was apparently in a big hurry to get rid of the mini van after Beausoleil was arrested. That's why he tried to give it to Marcus Arneson. You want to stay away from people like Charles Manson, it's like Watkins said, "be careful who you give yourself to".

This is an interesting narrative. They guy makes a few mistakes on the facts of the case, but that doesn't mean he's not telling the truth.

I've never believed that Gary sold bad drugs to Bobby. I think Bobby made that up. I've always thought that Manson wanted Gary's money and possessions. After Lottsapoppa, Manson was feeling that they all needed to get lost and hide, and he needed money for transportation, food and weapons.

This story makes sense though, that no only did Manson want money, he wanted revenge on Gary because Gary wouldn't go along with their Socialist agenda that "everything belongs to everybody". I didn't know that Gary went to the police about the family begging and bilking people out of money, cars, etc. I've never read that before, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Cops launched a mini-raid on Spahn in the early morning hours of July 28, 1969, involving about four Sheriff vehicles and at least one LAPD car. LASO Deputy Sam Olmstead and Deputy George Grap noticed Hinman's stolen red/white VW van(Sanders) or the Fiat station wagon(Bugliosi)at the scene.

Bugs addresses the July 28 mini-raid on Spahn in a brief footnote(Helter Skelter, pg139), which says:

"...on July 28, two LASO deputies--Olmstead and Grap--visited Spahn Ranch on another matter. While there they saw the Fiat, ran a spot check on the license, and learned that it belonged to Gary Hinman. Grap knew Hinman; he also knew he was a friend of the people at Spahn Ranch, and therefore didn't feel there was anything suspicious about the station wagon's being there. At this time, although Hinman was dead, his body had not yet been discovered.After the discovery of the body on July 31, LASO put out a "want" on Hinman's vehicles. Grap didn't learn of it, or Hinman's death, until much later. If he had known, of course, he could have directed the investigation to Spahn Ranch, and the Manson Family months before Kitty Lutesinger implicated Atkins and the others."

So Deputies Grap and Olmstead, of the Malibu Sheriff's substation, don't know the name of a recent murder victim killed in the territory covered by the Malibu Sheriff's substation. And don't know anything about a BOLO on the victim's two distinctive automobiles. Which is no ordinary BOLO on a stolen car, but that of a murder victim. And the other 4-6 cops there that night didn't make the connection either. Maybe the Malibu area at that time was a hotbed of murder activity, and the Hinman name got lost in the shuffle.

I find all this hard to believe. To me it's just more evidence that Manson was being protected by higher ups.

The information below shows that there is more to the Hinman case than simple revenge for his “trash-talking” the Family – that the motive was actually to start a race war, initiated by a series of ever more horrendous murders.

From https://xdell.blogspot.com/2009/01/

The Mayfair-based Process Church, an English sect based in London, hated blacks. Another group called the Crowlyan Solar Lodge of the OTO advocated a cataclysmic race war, ending in the final extermination of all blacks.

“Their [OTO's] leader, Georgina Brayton, held many properties across southern California. But out of all of them, she gathered her flock into the squalid Quonset huts of their compound in the desert town of Blythe, California, in April of 1969. She believed that the racial conflict would first break out in the inner city.”

OTO ordered Charles Manson to begin the race war by murdering Gary Hinman and framing the Black Panthers for the crime. The other group, the Process, helped the OTO in this endeavor.

“They [the Process] were at the scene handling the situation with Gary Hinman. They orchestrated the cover-up down to the bloody paw print on the wall. Ed Sanders found two witnesses, whom he only identified by the first names Jay and Dave. These two both say that women outside of the family were at the scene while the slippies tortured and murdered Hinman. One of them spoke with a British accent over the telephone.”

The one thing with Sanders is that he was right there at the current event. He was reporting and righting live as the event had just broke, he didn't have hindsight as he was right there. I can't knock him for that.

More evidence of the premeditated nature of Hinman's murder. They knew he had no money:

www.cielodrive.com/mary-brunner-statement-04-06-70.phpMS. BRUNNER: I didn't really know what to expect like eh - cause - eh I know that he didn't have any money and I told Bobby I knew that he didn't have any money. But Bobby said come along, so I went along and - and Bobby had said, you know, that he said like you know, if Gary doesn't come through well, you know, -MR. STOVITZ: Rough him up a bit?MS. BRUNNER: Yah, little bit but I didn't really think, you know, it wouldn't turn out to be - why I didn't think Bobby would do it, you know, and he knew Gary didn't have no money. He must have known, 'cause I knew.

Yeah but come on, the bullshit about animal sacrifice, orgies, the bullshit about Ed or Dave or whoever else, Atkins shitting in the stairwell, that book probably averaged one fabricated or exaggerated story every 4 pages

James Dinwiddie offers interesting insight into the Gary Hinman murder:

In my new book, "Manson Exposed: A Reporter's 50-Year Journey into Madness and Murder," which will be published July 24, 2019, I believe I bring some pretty solid information to this debate.

First of all I was told by Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston when I interviewed them at the Spahn Ranch on December 5 1969, that Manson had ordered the murders to try (in what today and the passage of time seems like warped reasoning:) to get Bobby Beausoleil off the hook for the murder of Gary Hinman.

I covered the crazy trial and Vincent Bugliosi went with his astonishing "Beatles Made Me Do It" Helter Skelter motive. Sensational--daring even--but it worked. Convictions all. Even Tex Watson a year or so later.

In the early Eighties I met with Aaron Stovitz, once the chief trial lawyer, who your devoted readers know, was kicked off the case, allowing Mr. Bugliosi to become "a legend in his own time and mind."

Stovitz told me that Bugliosi had got his hands on a book I had written with Jerry LeBlanc called "Five to Die", a hastily done book which came out before the trial. And Vince read all the brainwashed by White Album Beatle lyrics, which Manson fed daily along with his regular doses of LSD and other chemical stimulants. And so he went with that song-incitement to revolution blueprint!

That may seem self serving on my part, but I do believe, after once again re-examining the case, that Manson --believe it or not--felt loyalty to Beausoleil, who he had originally sent to Gary's house on Topanga Canyon, and so went to those outlandish and homicidal lengths to give the impression that the Black Panthers were responsible for the Tate-LaBianca killings---and the cops would then give Bobby his get out of jail free card! So in the long run John, Paul, George and Ringo got a bum rap!

Katie, Manson was pretty delusional and I think people were telling him Hinman had money and he believed them because he wanted to believe Hinman had money because he wanted it. Beausoleil was just a punk jerk who killed Hinman because he didn't what else to do. I also believe Manson was an angry person and just decided anyone could be used and abused and if abuse led to murder so be it.

Beauders maybe Manson thought Gary had money because he had a house. I'm assuming Gary owned that house, I've never heard that he was renting it. BTW that house was really strange. I think the living quarters were only on the 2nd floor. I don't know what was on the first floor.

Again, I don't believe the murders were copy cat killings. There were too many differences. Plus I don't think Manson felt any loyalty to Bobby. In fact, I think Manson & Bobby spent a lot of time vying for "king of the roost" around the ranch.

But I do think that Manson was concerned about Bobby being in jail because he might start talking about Lottsapoppa, who Manson thought was dead, and he might get sent back to prison. I think his reasoning was self serving, not out of concern for Bobby.

Thanks Starviego. I've always wondered about that house. If Gary did own the house and was renting out the first floor, that would be some income. I know he taught music, but I can't imagine that was a real money-maker. I think Gary's Dad had money. Maybe he bought it and was selling it to Gary.

I doubt that the first floor was being rented at the time of his murder. Surely someone would have heard something upstairs. I'm sure Gary screamed pretty loud when Manson sliced his ear and Bobby stabbed him.

As Sunset mentioned, Gary's bagpipes were seen at the ranch. So all they got after killing Gary was 2 used cars and a musical instrument they didn't have any idea how to play.

katie8753 said... "So all they got after killing Gary was 2 used cars and ...."

Bugliosi described Manson as "criminally sophisticated," yet I have always wondered at the rank stupidity they displayed by driving around in the victim's cars and selling them, leaving a clear trail right back to the Family.

I wonder if the Family thought Hinman had money because he was traveling to Japan later that month. I believe Hinman's father paid for his ticket. I think we go over and over the motives because not just one fits all the murderers, everyone had his/her own motive Beausoleil wanted to look like a man, Brunner wanted money for Helter Skelter, Atkins was in it for a thrill, Watson wanted power in the Family, Krenwinkel wanted to bring on Helter Skelter, Van Houten hoped to do something that would help Beausoleil, and Manson well he was full of anger and hate. They all had their own reasons.

Right on Beauders. We go over the same things over and over and over again. And everyone has their own opinions.

Every so often, someone writes a book, and "interviews" all kinds of folks. But the bottom line is, no one really knows why. No one can offer any proof of anything, all we have is conjecture about motive.

This mystery will never be solved. Why? Because everyone has their own agenda. And I suspect that the only man who can tell us why is now dead. Because I think that the only man who really knows why is Charles Manson.

I don't think that Tex, Susan, Pat, Leslie, Linda, Mary, Bobby, Gypsy, Squeaky, Sandy or any of the others really knows why. I think they were all pawns in this game.

I don't know what to think about Hinman. None of us really know what his story was obviously but I tend to believe either the mescaline was bad or the SS's decided to punk Bobby and get their money back. However, two things that bring me back to questioning that theory is why didn't the SS's return some of the drugs (if they were actually bunk) with their refund demands, that's par for the course in those types of situations, and why didn't Gary still have the money when Bobby went there? We're talking a day anyway and it's not like people dump their drug money into their checking account at any time. Being tortured, I'd think that at some point he'd have given it up. Especially once Charlie cut him and Bruce Davis was or wasn't holding the gun on him. That had to potentially seem like the end of his life to him.

As for Gary's finances, I don't think it's all that odd for a grad student to be supported by his or her parents while finishing a phd. I've seen parents buy a car and a house for the student to live in until they're done and support them in all the other ways at the same time. 34 is kinda pushing the age scale though.

Speaking of Krenny, I wonder what's really going on with her. I've watched her parole hearings. She has tried dis-association, crying and screaming. Nothing has worked for her so far.

She had an interview with Diane Sawyer in the 90's and appeared to be sorry and that didn't work.

She was the number 2 killer aside from Tex. How does she really feel about these murders? Was she really that into it? Is she really that nuts? And if she is, what made her nuts? Her parents' divorce? Her sisters' death?

katie, I believe that Krenwinkel's body hair got her teased and truly Manson was the first person to say and mean it, that she was beautiful, that goes a long way with an unhappy self conscience girl. I believe her crimes were committed out of love for Manson. I also believe she believed in Helter Skelter. Her misspelling Helter as Healter is more revealing that anyone is seeing, she really thought she was "healing" mankind through committing Helter Skelter. Before Manson she wanted to be a nun, and through Helter Skelter she was helping people. Once she saw Manson for what he was, she realized what she had really done. She deep down hates herself. I think she realizes that she is never going to get out of prison and she accepts that. All of them have to know if Van Houten can't be released then none of them are.

Thanks Beauders. I agree! How easy for Manson to captivate a seemingly ugly girl by calling her "pretty". That sounds like something out of high school. It's surprising that a girl who had graduated high school would fall for that kind of rhetoric.

You would think that her parents would get her some kind of "hair treatments" to resolve her horrific appearance. Maybe they were too involved in their crumbling marriage.

To think that Manson's deceptive flattery of her would escalate to her committing murder is kind of a reach, but I guess it depends on her willingness to accept his crazy ideas, her need for his attention, and her need to put his crazy ideas into action. I think she she obviously at his "beck and call" and when he called, she answered.

It's a shame that happened. And I guess it could have happened to any ugly girl back then who had no self esteem.

Which makes me wonder if ANY of those people had any self esteem. I can't imagine any girl or boy with self esteem joining into this kind of stuff.

Katie, you hit on a key point, self-esteem. I have seen many people, rich or poor, pretty or unattractive, male or female, make stupid decisions that impacted the rest of their lives because low self-esteem increased their vulnerability. Gangs have thrived on that for decades...

I believe the compliments hooked her and she fell in love with Manson and believed every word he said, a true believer. Of all the women I think she fell for the Helter Skelter philosophy the most, she was the most vulnerable. Most of the women I believe, believed at least somewhat in the philosophy of Helter Skelter, the guys were different they all had their own reasons to kill the victims. Like I've said before I believe Watson's life was saved because of the murders. He would have been killed due a dodgy drug deal. Krenwinkel, wanted to be a nun and help people that's what gets me. That's why I think she was 'healing' people with the murders. Of all of them she gets it, she knows she's scum, and in someways because she gets it I would be ok with her being paroled.

P.S. Katie do you still watch The Bold & The Beautiful? If not a huge story line is coming to an end and another is about to begin. Yes I know it's odd that an intellectual lesbian loves soap opera's, I even watch three foreign ones, two English and one Australian. Maybe it gets all the death imagery out of my head from my various interests.

Yes Beauders I do watch The Bold & the Beautiful. I'm glad that "baby Beth" story is finally coming to a head. I'm sick of watching Flo threaten to "tell the truth" over and over again and get bullied into keeping her mouth shut. The only one on that show with any brains is little Douglas.

And I can't stand that guy who plays Thomas. He's constantly taking his shirt off to show off his muscles. Like we can't get thru the day without ogling his body.

BTW the girl that plays Steffy just had a baby in real life, and now she's wearing outfits that show off her flat stomach and big boobs. LOL.

I know today is Friday and it will be a "cliff hanger" but I think Liam is finally going to get to the bottom of all this and try to "save" Hope.

Steffy's daughter is also adorable on BB. I am not a kid person but those two are really cute.The daughters blond hair and curls really stand out to me. Of course these kids are on tv because of their looks.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True