tag:www.schneier.com,2015:/blog//2/tag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-2015-02-17T05:44:15ZComments for A blog covering security and security technology.Movable Typetag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:925472Comment from bob on 2012-10-17bob
@abc

Sorry I can't find a link specificaly to it. It was back in the 1980's somebody discovered that the geology under Paris and environs and wanted to drill test wells to find what was there [1]. In order to passify the locals who were most definatly not keen the Total SA test drills in the Champs-Elysees were "hidden" behind false building fronts. Most of the test drills were dry and later one or two that were not actually had real buildings put over the top as well.

However even though central Paris it's self was not destined back then to be a major production site. It was actualy found that the best area was some fifty or so miles outside of Paris towards the champagne and brie producing area. And at it's peak in 1988 it was producing around 40,000 barrels a day which has dropped back to around 10,000 currently.

What however brought it back to mind was a chat with a French friend a few days ago apparently there was a bit of an uproar prior to the French Presidential ellections in France because a US company had been given experimental permits to start shale oil fracking under Paris [3], and apparently it's started again. My friend being somewhat younger than me (most people are ;-) was not even aware that for over a quater of a century the Parisian countryside and one or two back streets of Paris have been oil producers...

[1] Back in the late 1970s early 1980s back befor Digital Signal Processing had made it out of the computer research labs the geological sismic "echo sounding" of strata using large quantities of explosives [2] and geophones did not work to well in busy cities due to urban noise drowning out any signals.

[2] Apparently for some strange reason people setting off large quantities of dynamite around Paris was considered unpopular with the locals many of whom had lived through WWII.

[3] Currently Vermilion Energy Inc., Toreador Resources Corp and partner Hess Corp. are targeting oil trapped in Paris Basin shale rock previously thought too hard to extract, and Vermilion has told the industry it has had positive results so far in the Paris Basin. However the techniques developed to do this known by many under the collective term "fracking" uses various explosive hydröooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooootechniques to blast water and chemicals to pulverize the rock and release hydrocarbons from the shale. This process which has supposadly revolutionized and significantly boosted U.S. natural gas production since 2006, is unpopular with the French populous in the area [4]. So much so that it's caused significant delays and prompted Craig McKenzie (Toreador's CEO) to say, “If the Paris Basin was in West Texas it would already be drilled and would have pretty substantial production”.

[4] Even in the home of Fracking the US it is very unpopular and has been accused of much damage to the environment and water supplies. For instance the gas-rich Marcellus Shale running from West Virginia down to New York has had 1,785 wells have been drilled in Pennsylvania’s portion since 2008, However New York regulators have under public preasure placed a moratorium on Fracking because of what has been said is the high likely hood of pollution of groundwater in what is a high population density area of the US.

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2012-10-17T11:16:49Z2012-10-17T11:16:49Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:923458Comment from Autolykos on 2012-10-16Autolykos
@wumpus: So they demand protection from democracy. Please remind me why we are granting it in the first place.]]>
2012-10-16T10:38:22Z2012-10-16T10:38:22Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:922106Comment from Sam Stickland on 2012-10-15Sam Stickland
Clive, do you have a link/further information about the disguised oil wells in Paris? Sounds interesting.]]>
2012-10-15T14:50:25Z2012-10-15T14:50:25Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:919374Comment from anton on 2012-10-13anton
so what, can't really rely on apple maps, can you?]]>
2012-10-13T23:56:12Z2012-10-13T23:56:12Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:918480Comment from Cellar on 2012-10-13Cellar
"Ask nicely" doesn't work as a privacy mechanism either, yet that's still the gold standard.]]>
2012-10-13T10:13:19Z2012-10-13T10:13:19Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:917147Comment from Clive Robinson on 2012-10-12Clive Robinson
You have to wonder at why this story happened...

As others have noted above the un fuzzed images are not the best around (you can buy images from the likes of SPOT that have better resolution) and it's not as though Taiwan is that big that a couple of high flying commercial flights could not photograph sufficiently well to give a very much higher resolution of "points of intereset".

The only conceivable excuse these days is to reduce information available to 'Protesters' who are called 'Domestic Terrorists" these days ("real terrorists not realy being interested in such targets).

Even the idea of "misdirection" does not wash these days with multispectral cameras provinding false colour overlays that can strip camouflage and potentialy many feet of soil/rock of buried bunkers etc. Then there are the various other types of sensors that can be regarded as the equivalent to range measurment devices which can distinquish the hight of crops and how well they are growing. Then there are other sensor providing spectral content of the plants leaves etc giving an indication of what minerals etc are in the soil they grow upon. Even sticking bunkers and such like under lakes and seas just doesn't cut it as various magnetometers etc (wave to those air and space bourn SQUID) detect minute anomalies that indicate the use of energy etc.

If you want to hide something these days put an office block ontop of it or make it look like an office block as they do with oil wells in places like Paris.

Oh and if you are going to fake an office etc remember either no car park or move the cars around and run their engines for a while otherwise they are a dead giverway that you are faking something. Likewise remember bodies produce about the same heat as a 100W fillement bulb and move around during the day so do effect IR signitures on the top floor and anywhere aircon systems are running.

Oh and the problem with an open country like most Western Nations is you can pretty much go where you like and so can a spy, so either close up photos of the buildings or "stay away" signs will be a dead giverway to another Nations Intel Organisations.

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2012-10-12T16:05:16Z2012-10-12T16:05:16Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:916960Comment from Chelloveck on 2012-10-12Chelloveck
Sounds to me like classic misdirection. The photos don't show anything important, but the military loudly requests that they be blurred. This entices the enemy to *think* the photos show something important, and to waste time and effort trying to figure out what important thing is hidden at the innocuous location. And, more importantly, deflects scrutiny from the real location of the nuclear facility and/or alien spacecraft.

I can't think of any examples offhand, but I'd be absolutely shocked if this hasn't already been used as a pivotal plot point in some screenplay.

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2012-10-12T14:22:55Z2012-10-12T14:22:55Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:916927Comment from Coyne Tibbets on 2012-10-12Coyne Tibbets
It seems to me that the cat is already out of the bag.

Even if Google blurs it for most of the people on the world, there's certainly someone at Google who saw it.

All the other governments saw it.

There's no secret to keep. Asking anyone to blur any installation out is kind of like playing air guitar: You're just fooling yourself.

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2012-10-12T13:59:51Z2012-10-12T13:59:51Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:916761Comment from wiredog on 2012-10-12wiredog
Bing reveals thecompound the SEALs used while training for the bin Laden raid.]]>
2012-10-12T11:30:11Z2012-10-12T11:30:11Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:916104Comment from Murray on 2012-10-11Murray
@A51

I don't think anyone had satellites with cameras when the U2 was being tested. After all, wasn't the U2 project addressing this particular requirement?

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2012-10-11T20:14:46Z2012-10-11T20:14:46Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915780Comment from Northern Realist on 2012-10-11Northern Realist
@kronos -- Those tactics pre-date the days of satellites -- check out a book called "To Fool a Glass Eye". And for later fooling satellites or other high altittude observers, it was also found that just painting a shadow on the ground worked very well. There were similar efforts used in the World Wars (especially in World War II) to hide factories, military vehicles, etc. The Germans even modified the way a harbour front look from the air so tht it would throw off the initial-aiming-point for air raids; one of the aircraft companies in California built a town overtop of its hangers... ]]>
2012-10-11T19:49:04Z2012-10-11T19:49:04Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915592Comment from moo on 2012-10-11moo
Obviously they put more value on having their enemies (and allies) know they have a military base there, than they do on keeping it secret.]]>
2012-10-11T16:52:40Z2012-10-11T16:52:40Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915525Comment from -B on 2012-10-11-B
A new demand for inflatable decoy buildings?]]>
2012-10-11T15:52:42Z2012-10-11T15:52:42Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915506Comment from Vles on 2012-10-11Vles
Or compare Google maps with Bing maps.]]>
2012-10-11T15:38:20Z2012-10-11T15:38:20Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915467Comment from Fred P on 2012-10-11Fred P
@No One-

There are plenty of public domain photos of Area 51. It's an old lake basin that dried up - making a lot of rather flat terrain that has cover from nearby observation.

This makes it nice for testing experimental aircraft (although I'm not certain that that's what it's presently used for).

The wikipedia article has pretty good photos and analysis of the site - including information on the status of the runways.

You are assuming that a military's only enemy is another military. Another real fear (at least for the ones controlling the military) would be anyone who might get in the way of the military's budget. Grassroots tax complaints are going to have a greater problem (unless somebody's nephew at google slips them the file).

The NSA cryptography museum is likely of interest to anybody on this site. It ends with a memorial to those "who died in silence". Once you realize that the secrecy (at least to extent after death) was entirely for the NSA budget (the Soviets knew who's plane it was when they shot it down), it becomes much more chilling.

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2012-10-11T14:37:14Z2012-10-11T14:37:14Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915427Comment from No One on 2012-10-11No One
I wonder what Area 51 looks like...]]>
2012-10-11T14:26:06Z2012-10-11T14:26:06Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915426Comment from Peter A. on 2012-10-11Peter A.
I still have no idea why militaries insist on doing such things. If some commercial satellite/aerial photo company has photos of their bases already, they may safely assume all their enemies have even better photos. What could a lowly Joe Googler do to their bases that their enemies cannot?]]>
2012-10-11T14:24:38Z2012-10-11T14:24:38Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915388Comment from rhr on 2012-10-11rhr
So if I want the governments of the world to hand me a list of secret military bases, all I have to do is start a sat-map website? Sweet!]]>
2012-10-11T13:39:34Z2012-10-11T13:39:34Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915357Comment from Kronos on 2012-10-11Kronos
I recall a story about spoofing Soviet satellites decades ago. Some Air Force personnel were briefed on IR capabilities the Soviets were supposed to have. They built lightweight mockups of oddly shaped aircraft and parked them on the runway tarmac several hours before the satellites came over. This left a cool spot of paving in the shape of the nonexistent aircraft for Soviet intelligence officers to puzzle over.]]>
2012-10-11T13:09:36Z2012-10-11T13:09:36Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915358Comment from Jay from BKK on 2012-10-11Jay from BKK
@Adam I'm betting that China already have subverted a meaningful percentage of the employees of those facilities rendering moot any concerns over images.]]>
2012-10-11T13:09:36Z2012-10-11T13:09:36Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915351Comment from abc on 2012-10-11abc
Resolution on Google is pretty good of UK's Fylingdales:

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2012-10-11T13:01:00Z2012-10-11T13:01:00Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915342Comment from vwm on 2012-10-11vwm
Well, when those pictures are commercially available already, anything beyond asking nicely might not be worth the effort...

Probably there are some "Security through obscurity" versus "Hiding in Plain Sight"-jokes hidden somewhere around that story.

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2012-10-11T12:55:43Z2012-10-11T12:55:43Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915338Comment from John on 2012-10-11John
It's interesting that military organisations are still building installations which can be readily identified from aerial imagery.

The German's learned that lesson (V2 factories, bunkers and mobile launchers) before the engineers for these buildings were even born.

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2012-10-11T12:52:45Z2012-10-11T12:52:45Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915314Comment from Adam on 2012-10-11Adam
I'm betting that China already have high quality overhead images of those facilities.]]>
2012-10-11T12:36:00Z2012-10-11T12:36:00Ztag:www.schneier.com,2012:/blog//2.4540-comment:915303Comment from Rob on 2012-10-11Rob
Great example of the Streisand Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect]]>
2012-10-11T12:25:29Z2012-10-11T12:25:29Z