Naruto 625 – Village Hidden in the Leaves

Well, well, that turned out a lot more interesting than I expected. For one, I definitely wasn’t expect Madara to actually jump in and prevent Hashirama from killing himself, let alone actually agree to the truce shortly afterwards. I guess after seeing someone do nothing but negative things really makes you a bit pessimistic eh? In the end though, I guess if there’s one thing this moment shows, it’s that the Uchiha aren’t exactly people that are guaranteed to succumb to the power of their Sharingan per se. There seems to be a bit of leeway depending on the situation and the person involved, and given the context with which this story is being told, it’s quite interesting in how it could potentially be a kind of foreshadowing in terms of Sasuke’s future role. On that note though, it also shows not only that even Madara himself had some semblance of sanity before (and was in many ways, just another ninja), but also why Hashirama would ultimately make the best choice of Hokage…

…which brings us to the other development of note this chapter: the fact that Hashirama actually wanted to make Madara the Hokage. As such, there was actually a chance Madara could’ve been the one whose face was carved into that wall as the first Hokage, which really makes you wonder how things would’ve turned out if that actually happened. It’s admittedly strange to think about it now, but one can’t help but think that if Madara actually was given the chance to lead, and was supported in doing so by the people in his clan and Konoha — whom incidentally, he was the one who actually gave the name to — showed their support, it’s possible that Madara would’ve never ended up the way he did — regardless of the Sharingan’s curse. Of course, there’s a chance it would’ve ended up similarly either way, but hmm… definitely worth a moment’s thought.

Regardless, it looks like the story’s finally come full circle, and we’re finally at a point we can pretty much say we know virtually everything that we’ve needed to know about. As such, I couldn’t help but feel a kind of finality with this chapter — a kind of atmosphere that just said: “Look, here we are. Look how far we’ve come. After all these years and all these chapters, the pieces of the puzzle are finally all together, and what’s left is just to wrap up the final battle and the story.” Indeed, the chapter just hammers in the fact that the series seems to be “fast” approaching its conclusion, and it’s something that has me admittedly pondering how strange it’d be not to have a weekly Naruto chapter to read. Though, I suppose it’s something that just had to come eventually.

In any case, that’s about it. This chapter likely wraps up the flashback into Konoha’s founding and I reckon we’ll get shifted back to the present day sometime in the next few chapters. Until then, I’ll catch ya guys around.

That said, although much were answered, a lot of Orochimaru has still been left in the dark, like his change of heart and true motivations. I feel like Orochimaru, as much as I dislike him as a character, is heavily played by Kishimoto in importance as Naruto’s overarching villain.

Tobirama isn’t exactly a bad person with ill-intentions, in many ways he’s very similar to Madara in wanting to protect the Senju(the Uchiha in Madara’s case) and isn’t willing to risk trusting the Uchiha too far.
I think the author did a good job with these three in not making one of them a typical evil bad guy but instead people who are on the right side in their own perspectives.

Definitely interesting how Hashirama wanted Madara to become Hokage, despite being the stronger one. Madara even clearly made his suspicions known to Hashirama about what Tobirama might do if he were Hokage. Also nice to see mention of Hiruzen’s and Danzo’s clans too.

It goes to show that Hashirama is willing to do anything to bring true peace, by letting Madara become the 1st Hokage despite being the stronger one shows that He really cared about Him( Madara ) and the Uchiha Clan as well as other clans in the village, that was how Mahatma Ghandi despite being a Hindu wanted Muhammad ali Jinnah a muslim to become India’s 1st pirme minister after India gained it’s Indipendence from Britain but Jinnah refused instead divided the newly independent Nation into two(India and Pakistan). I wonder why most times in a world like ours, it is dificult for two people or two groups(tribes, races, nations etc.) can’t come together despite our differences unite to form a better world.

People just love to focus a lot more on the negatives and differences between themselves and others more so than the positives and similarities for various reasons, though it seems to be mostly for ego (wanting to show they’re “better” than the other). And if there isn’t any immediate ones, they just make them up to make the others look below them, much like how war propaganda during WWII and the Cold War always had the opposing side made out to be barbarians, savages, ruthless, uncivilized, murderers, underdeveloped, etc, and the only ones who would be able to know otherwise would be those who actually encounter the other side(s) themselves.

Of course, that’s also made very hard to do since, during such times, the ability to go to and from the opposing countries is very, very hard, restrictive, etc to do and frowned upon.

Nice analogy with India/Pakistan. There was actually a west and east Pakistan on opposite sides of India geographically for those who aren’t familiar with that particular history. East Pakistan fought for its own independence supported by India and eventually reestablished themselves as Bangladesh. Being a predominantly Islamic country their usually cordial diplomatic relationship with India is in stark contrast to India and Pakistan’s relationship.

Ugh I just don’t care about these flashbacks anymore. I would have been a lot more interested if these chapters had come at a different point in the story, instead of basically serving to stall the climax of the ENTIRE SERIES.

Bleach is also having an extended flashback sequences at the moment, and I feel like Bleach is the example of how to do it right and Naruto is how to do it wrong. For Bleach, it is happening at a lull in the action and it seems like for the characters/plot to continue that this flashback story *has* to be told for the manga/the reader to move forward. I am totally on board with that. With Naruto it just feels like filler thrown in to slow the (awesome) momentum they had built up with the Obito revelation/Kurama+Naruto team-up/whole ninja world team-up/significant character deaths. At this point I don’t really see how Madara and Hashirama throwing stones is relevant to any of that, and therefore I don’t care about it. These past few chapters have definitely taken me out of the “moment” so to speak, and I really hope they get back on track.

I’m with you cutey, I hope this is the last part of the flashback. I am so dying to get back into the main story but I have a feeling that we will be reading one or two more flash backs in the pending weeks before we return to the battlefield.

Hn, I’ve gotta say the pacing felt off. Watching Madara go from bad to good to bad all in one chapter was just too rushed. Hashirama wanting to make him Hokage was a surprise, but I can see how nobody else would trust him with the position after his “fight to the bitter end” mentality during the clan wars. I suspect that he discovered something about the Rinnegan after Hashirama was made Hokage, which then made him decide to leave and “follow his own path” instead of stay and work things out in Konoha.

Agreeing with the person behind me. The pacing makes me wonder if someone told Kishimoto he needed to hurry up. This chapter wasn’t as bad as the last chapter in that aspect, but the story is still going surprisingly fast

I am a bit more surprised that they had democracy back then, it sounds like it has been around for a while. Democracy was suposed to be good, yet that was what prevented Madara from becoming Hokage.

I am a bit refreshed to see Madara yelling at his old freind so comically, Sasuke will you become like Madara in the end. To be honest, knowing the author, as a plot twist he will make Sasuke kill Naruto as a way to prevent history to repeat itself.

Itachi, he was truly an intersting Uchiha, to which I am wondering if the Second is really that unimpressed with how Itachi killed his family, you would think that would have proved the Second’s theory about the Uchiha wrong as Itachi chose his loyalty for the Leaf over his family.

Actually, as I brought up last chapter, Itachi killing the clan fits in with the whole “Uchiha Curse” bit. Yes, it was done with good intentions, as I’m sure many who fall to curse start out, but it was Itachi’s LOVE (and loyalty) for Konoha that ended up driving him down a “dark” path to his premature death (despite it being an illness). It’s not love “for the Uchiha”, but love “at all” that brings about the curse they seem to say.

Oh right, sorry I forgot. Though Itachi was almost out of options in my opinion. To fight for the Uchiha to rebuild his clan’s status, with the cost of many lives, or to fight for the leaf with the cost of the lives of his clan. There are only two dark paths, one had a bit of light in it while the other had no light at all.

Itachi, as the third said, would have likely been picked as a Hokage at possibly the age of seven. It is easy to assume his brain couldn’t find another way around it.

Not sure about actually being made a Kage, but he definitely showed tons if potential at 7. Same age as when he awoke the Sharingan which is quite young for awakening it.

And yeah, Itachi basically went with the lesser of two evils, both of which would’ve (most likely) resulted in the annihilation of the Uchiha Clan.

Either let the coup take place, resulting in civil war in Konoha, and most likely resulting in the death of the entire clan (including Sasuke and himself) as I highly doubt the Uchiha Clan could take on every other clan in Konoha (Hyuga, Nara, Akimichi, Yamanaka, Sarutobi, Shimura, etc) AND Hiruzen, the ANBU, and other notable Jonin and such, while also costing many lives of other clans along with the Uchiha which, coupled with all the chaos and disruption in their government and whatnot, would result in the Uchiha name being forever tarnished for the rest of history (which Sasuke did anyway so far unless he REALLY redeems himself somehow), cause a severe weakening of Konoha’s structure and leaving it vulnerable to attacks from the outside.

Or do what he did, resulting ONLY in the deaths of the Uchiha Clan, sparing Sasuke, leaving himself as the only “enemy”, and the Uchiha name would, he hoped, remain clean (at least in the eyes of villagers and other clans).

I love how literally none of this would have happened if Hashirama had listened to his brother and killed Madara. No Kyuubi rampage, no Fourth War, and peace. And I love how Madara was spot-on about Tobirama mistreating the Uchiha is he became Hokage. All three of them are morons in the end.

Tobirama has he’s good sides but one could just as well argue if Tobirama was a little more trusting of Madara(and Uchiha), he would never have left the village and none of things you mentioned above would have happened either.This would be a better option since it doesn’t require the death of anyone, even Madara’s.

It wasn’t just that. It was Tobirama’s lingering hatred for the Uchiha and the Uchiha Clan itself not respecting or even listening to Madara’s warnings. Basically, the entire world save for Hashirama (no coincidence that he’s the only one that Madara respects) turned its back on him and as such, he came to the same conclusion as Obito: that the world is just a joke and a game

yall missed something. madara didnt quit because of the hokage spot. he couldnt care less. he was concerned about tobirama exterminating the uchiha. he brought Hashirama to the uchiha room to tell him that he has found a new way to obtain real peace(moon’s eye plan).for that, he would need hashirama’s cells to activate the rinnegan. thats what the monument says. that’s why he says “I’ll enjoy fighting you while I walk towards my real dream”. he didnt really go evil he just went rogue

Yeah, it’s fine to have ideals, but you need an equal amount of realism as well or chances are that those ideals will end up failing and, as we’re seeing with Hashirama, and as we’ve also seen with Naruto, they just can’t seem to see that there will be others, even those closest to them, that may disagree with their idealistic thinking. Even if everyone had the same goal of peace in mind, there are many things that they will most likely differ on like how that peace should be obtained, how that peace should be maintained after, what happens if/when someone disrupts that peace again, and so on.

Objectively, “realistically”, the only reason the villages are working together right now is because they all had a common foe in Akatsuki and the Jubi (“The enemy of my enemy is my friend”). But what about after everything is all said and done, and that enemy is no more? Each village would have its own agenda and look out for its own best interests, beliefs, etc, and we can’t forget that there were three major wars previously between them. I doubt such bad blood could be dropped so readily by everyone.

After re-reading the chapter, it helps understand more why Madara looks so lowly at Naruto and his ideals; they’re identical to Hashirama’s (further reinforcing Obito’s whole, “I can see the Shodaime Hokage in you” line). I mean, the whole peace agreement and the creation of Konoha was meant to be a step towards peace throughout the land, but it all utterly failed in the long run since Hashirama seems to refuse to accept other possibilities and wanting to believe that everyone is good or he could convince them to be good, like Naruto keeps trying to do most of the time. Sadly ironic that rather than any outside force like the Uchiha Clan, it’s one of those closest to him, his own brother, that he just couldn’t convince otherwise, also much like Naruto (though metaphorically with Sasuke).

And it also can give a small bit of possible insight as to why other villages could’ve been formed; not because of wanting to follow their peaceful example, but misinterpreting the peace agreement and the creation of Konoha itself. While it was not Hashirama’s intention, many other clans that make up other villages today could’ve seen the joining of the Senju and Uchiha Clans, and the creation of Konoha itself, as some kind of collaboration between the two to try to FORCE the other clans into joining under their rule. Couple that with the flashback Onoki had with Madara when he was young, with Madara trying to force Iwa’s loyalty to Konoha, not exactly helping curb such thoughts, and it’s no surprise that rival villages would rise up, some directly against Konoha like Iwa.

I know alot of people are gona hate me for this, but actually watching the child Madara aswell as the young Obito and how they changed to be the villains of the story, well i found it strange since the character closest to them in personality during that time is not Sasuke but Naruto.

Yes i said it and gets me thinking though Naruto´s life has been really harsh he could have ended like both of them Heck (spoiler for road to ninja) Menma could have been a good example of what he could have become though i havent watch the movie (end spoilers).

Also this chapter actually show more in dept how the uchiha were being pushed away since the second Hokage tock over, also it makes me think of the fall of the Uzumaki clan and well how the senju village could have turned their back on them also despite being allies and well both Uzumaki and Uchiha became amost extint because of the fear the Senju had or could have had for both clans of course this is just me

Madara: Cynical – Tobirama will end his clan eventually, best not support it
Tobirama: Realist – Hashirama is setting up long-term conflict, best end it right here
Hashirama: Idealist – Madara can be the sign of proof that anyone can build a lasting peace

I wonder how the fuck Naruto will break this shit cycle, unless everyone blindly follows him like he’s the Ninja Messiah, which if you think about it, isn’t that much different from the Moon Eye plan.

But I have a shaking feeling that, that is how this story will end. Just peace for no real reason but that. Well, at least you could give a little support in that the 4th war gave them a bit of experience in working together, but that draws unsettling parallels to the A-bomb exploding a city ultimately being good because it made Japan anti-nuclear in the end.

Yeah, I have a feeling it’ll end up like that too. Especially with the way we saw how, “realistically”, they were so reluctant they were to form the Alliance in the first place (at least Iwa and Kumo were), then suddenly, they all start thinking about Naruto and are now all too happy to work together and maintain the peace.

It also doesn’t help with Naruto being the whole “Child of Destiny” bit.

I think that, if Madara had become Hokage at that time, probably there wouldn’t be any villages(yep, Konoha would not exist), or at least the concept of villages as we know today would be different. Since Madara was not someone fit to be a leader(he said it himself, and had experience in leadership) and the trust of the people would be divided among the supporters of Madara and Hashirama, the possibility of a civil war among the factions would be imminent. If the other villages were created with Konoha as the ideal (assuming that there were no other villages at the time), the falling of Konoha would become the fact that joining hands might be a bad idea.

Another thought just came to me. Suppose Madara became the Hokage and the Hidden Leaf still maintain its Democracy. Would Madara be able to hand over the seat of power to another person other than an Uchiha when the time comes for the Hokage to step down?