At least fifteen people were killed in a drone strike in North Waziristan when at least two missiles hit a compound in the village known as Hesokhel. Three people were killed by the first missile. Then, following the attack, twelve people arrived to rescue and bury the dead and were killed by a second missile.

The strike was the deadliest strike this year. A security official in Pakistan claimed “fifteen militants” were killed. “Foreigners” were possibly among the dead. But, the identities of those killed were unknown to this security official and thus not reported.

The New York Times reported “a journalist from the area said the compound was being used by Uzbek, Tajik and Turkmen militants fighting for the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, a Qaeda-affiliated extremist group.” And, according to the AFP, “local people found letterheads of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, the country’s main umbrella Taliban faction waging an insurgency against the Pakistani government, wooden beds, blankets and mattresses” in the debris.

Yesterday, a drone strike killed ten people who were mourning the death of two fighters that were killed in a drone strike the day before. Ghulam Khan of the Maulvi Nazir group, a Pakistan Taliban faction, was reportedly among the dead. The strike bore a resemblance to a strike that killed Pakistan Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud. The Obama administration knew when they launched a drone attack on Mehsud in August 2009 that they would kill his wife and other family members. On Sunday, Obama knew there were innocent people surrounding Khan and still ordered the strike.

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism, based in the UK, published an analysis of the recent attacks. They found the recent strikes to be a continuation of a CIA practice of targeting rescuers and funeral-goers with drones.

On more than a dozen occasions between 2009 and June 2011, the CIA attacked rescuers as they tried to retrieve the dead and injured. Although Taliban members were killed on almost every occasion, so too were civilians – many of whom the Bureau’s field investigators were able to name. The investigation also reported that on at least three occasions the CIA had struck funeral-goers.

The targeting of people who are mourning or engaged in rescuing people or burying the dead is likely illegal and clearly inhumane. Rescuers are not engaged in hostilities. Additionally, under international human rights law (which the US only subscribes to when it can bolster US foreign policy or be used to condemn a country opposed to some US agenda), it is forbidden to launch an attack “except in the most restricted circumstances, namely when the possibility of being attacked is absolutely imminent.”

‘Not to mince words here, if it is not in a situation of armed conflict, unless it falls into this very narrow area of imminent threat then it is an extra-judicial execution. This is absolutely unlawful under IHRL and of course under domestic law in any place in which such an attack might occur. And illegal under US law,’ says Naz Modirzadeh, Associate Director of the Program on Humanitarian Policy and Conflict Research (HPCR) at Harvard University.

‘So then we don’t even need to get to the nuance of who’s who, and are people there for rescue or not. Because each death is illegal. Each death is a murder in that case.’

According to the TBIJ, “under President Barack Obama one drone strike has hit Pakistan on average every four days…most of the 2,292 to 2,863 people reported to have died were low-ranking militants, but that only 126 fighters had been named,” and 385 to 775 civilians including 164 to 168 children have been killed” by drone strikes.

Twenty to twenty-seven people have now been killed in three strikes in the past three days. Only a few of those killed were reported to have any connections or affiliations to any groups like the Taliban, which the US has been fighting in Afghanistan.

The New York Times quoted an anonymous Pakistani security official, who suggested the recent rise in drone attacks are “nothing but pressure tactics and preparing for the second term.” Pakistani officials believe that the US is using drone attacks to force the re-opening of NATO supply routes. Officials also think the strikes help Obama look good on national security ahead of the November election. An anonymous senior American official, however, disputed this suggestion: ”Until now the area was socked in by a long stationary front with cloud cover.” The attacks are just being carried about because the US finally got some good weather.

Pakistan strongly condemned the recent attacks. The country has spent the past few months trying to force the US to stop launching drone attacks in Pakistan. Officials closed the NATO supply routes to put pressure on the US, however, the Obama administration has shown little interest in halting drone attacks. They have shrugged off demands from Pakistan that the US respect the country’s sovereignty. They’ve shown nothing but unremitting indifference to the concerns of the leaders of Pakistan, which are supported by widespread outrage toward drones among the people of Pakistan.

David Sanger, reporter for the New York Times, told Bob Schieffer on “Face the Nation” this past weekend that the Obama administration “had about four days in 2009 when they thought the Pakistani Taliban – based on intercepts they’d gotten listening to leaders of this Taliban group – had a small nuclear device. And they actually sent a nuclear search team to the Gulf.” This was a “false alarm.” The “experience,” however, “reinforced an idea among U.S. policymakers: That it’s Pakistan, not Afghanistan that is really the biggest single threat to the United States in that region.”

The Obama administration should go before Congress and ask them to declare war if it really believes so many people in Pakistan pose an imminent threat to the United States. But, as Sanger suggests, that does not comport with the Obama doctrine of foreign policy:

“There is an Obama doctrine,” said Sanger, “which is, the country’s tired of these big wars of occupation, of sending 100,000 troops into a country, staying around for four or five years at a cost of a trillion dollars or more, and yet we still have these threats. So the way he has operated has been to try to choose a high tech area where the Unites States has advantage.”

Obama has had to use his background as a law professor to make the drone war seem legal. He’s had lawyers from the Justice Department, including Attorney General Eric Holder, help his administration redefine the meaning of “due process” to provide cover for drone assassinations. He’s argued doing this on a smaller scale is better than spending trillions of dollars on military occupation, which is debatable. Millions of dollars go into the manufacturing and procurement of these flying killer robots so in the long run it is highly debatable whether this is cheaper than military occupation.

…It takes significantly more people to operate unmanned aircraft than it does to fly traditional warplanes. According to the Air Force, it takes a jaw-dropping 168 people to keep just one Predator aloft for twenty-four hours! For the larger Global Hawk surveillance drone, that number jumps to 300 people! In contrast, an F-16 fighter aircraft needs fewer than one hundred people per mission.

Once again, who is being killed? Military-age males, whom the administration wants the world to consider “combatants.” People in “areas of known terrorist activity.” Individuals found with “top Qaeda” operatives that are “probably up to no good.” Actually, no, as previously mentioned, many women and children and innocent men are being executed away from the battlefield in Afghanistan.

People, as Nation journalist Jeremy Scahill points out, are being killed because they are seen to be engaging in “superficial patterns of life” that make them suspect. This greatly increases the “odds” that “a large number of innocent people” will be killed and suggests America is “now into ‘pre-crime’territory, Minority Report-style” and it “should be disturbing to many Americans.” Yet, far too many defend Obama for claiming this executive power to execute people without judicial process abroad. They gripe at the fact that Obama has been able to expand the “war on terrorism” in a way that George W. Bush could not have ever gotten away with when he was president. The fear and terror that drone warfare has brought and is bringing to people in Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen is completely ignored.

144 Responses
to “Rescuers Targeted by US Drone Strike in Pakistan (Again)”

From another site that has an insider in WH. Been following on and off and much of what this guy has said has come out later in the news. take it or leave it, but apparently O gets off watching the “kill videos” afterwards

A guy who complained loudly about water boarding – it don’t kill the poor bastard. It makes ‘em talk. Barack Obama declared that to be offensive to the ideals of America, right? But now Barack Obama…he’s judge and jury. With a pointing of a finger to names on a list…Barack Obama gets to play God. No day in court. No guarantee innocent people won’t be killed as well – and they have been killed. Children. Women. Over and over again. And this president…he has that knowledge when he watches the kill confirmations. And he watches it over and over again. These are high tech snuff films – a multi-billion dollar snuff program…and he gets off on it.

Is there nothing Pakistan can do to stop these attacks short of armed conflict against the US? This is truly nuts. Better to declare war against Pakistan than to kill off people wantonly as we are doing. At least that would stop the pretense. Obama may have supporters but this kind of killing is going to change the game provided there is continual reporting.

People can say what they want, but the facts are crystal clear. There are only two places on earth at present in which a person is safe from a predator drone strike, RUSSIA and CHINA. All other countries have sold their people’s down the river to the Asylum States government and are therefore subject to drone strike at any time.

One strict rule was to kill his victims away from their wives and children. “You don’t do that sort of stuff in front of the wife and kids,” he said in a telephone interview.

“I sat down the street with binoculars, waited for the kids to leave. Waited for the wife to leave. I didn’t want anybody in the house. A lot of guys wouldn’t care.”
.

He continues that he eschewed the use of bombs, noting that shrapnel from a bomb in a biker hit in Montreal accidentally killed an 11-year-old boy in 1995. “I don’t believe in bombs, no. I just don’t like it. That’s not the way to do things.”

Obama’s actions are illegal and immoral. He even claims the right to have American citizens, that is, his own citizens murdered without due process. Couple these with Bush’s rendition and torture regime, along with his doctrine and perpetration of “preemptive wars” or wars of choice. Add to those the Republican destruction of the middle class in America through tax cuts for the rich while destroying the middle class in an effort to create a rainbow of slavery.

the Obama administration “had about four days in 2009 when they thought the Pakistani Taliban – based on intercepts they’d gotten listening to leaders of this Taliban group – had a small nuclear device.

is interesting. Impossible to know what this means, and the fact that this information was released. whether any part of it is true or not.

Does it not seem as though the U.S. is provoking Pakistan to retaliate? Don’t they have nuclear arms?

This doesn’t seem to be a very smart move…but then again the criminals in the White House and Congress have no value for human life. This is evidenced by not only the drone strikes, but by the conditions of millions of Americans here at home, i.e. lack of food, water, health care, larger prison population than Stalin ever had, housing, quality education, child care, employment and just simple resources to take care of one’s self…Not to mention the human right’s violations committed at home, i.e. NDAA, FISA, Patriot Act, Fusion Centers,Infragard and an all out gutting of the American Constitution. And yes, American’s are living under martial law whether we like to admit it or not.

TIME FOR THE PAKISTANI PEOPLE TO TAKE DOWN THEIR MILITARY JUNTA AND ITS WEAK CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT COUNTERPART THAT HAVE SOLD THEM OUT::

You are missing the larger point here. The Pakistan military and the weak civilian government have sold their people out. You are right, they could stop these drone strikes, if they desired to. However, they do not desire to. And in order to keep their 3 billion in aid from the asylum states government coming in, they will continue to allow these murders to take place…………….

DIVIDE AND CONQUER:: HOW THE ASYLUM STATES OF AMERIKA GOVERNMENT CONTROLS THIRD WORLD NATIONS::

Most of these third world countries in southeast asia, the middle east, and so forth are tribal in nature. The local factions are constantly battling for control of territory, resources, etc., and as a consequence they are too stupid to come together to keep out foreign invaders. This allows the asylum states and other imperial powers to bribe and buy out certain factions of these “countries” which then allows them to take control either figuratively or literally. In return for these bribes the factions, when they fully sell out, are then able to use the asylum states military, CIA, etc., as a weapon against the factions they are battling against. Once the asylum states government has enough factions or the ruling faction in its back pocket, it can then do whatever it wants whenever it wants to. Hence, predator drone strikes around the clock, without warning and without consequence. This is how the strategy of divide and conquer works……………..

DIVIDE AND CONQUER:: HOW THE ASYLUM STATES OF AMERIKA GOVERNMENT CONTROLS THIRD WORLD NATIONS::

Most of these third world countries in southeast asia, the middle east, and so forth are tribal in nature. The local factions are constantly battling for control of territory, resources, etc., and as a consequence they are too stupid to come together to keep out foreign invaders. This allows the asylum states and other imperial powers to bribe and buy out certain factions of these “countries” which then allows them to take control either figuratively or literally. In return for these bribes the factions, when they fully sell out, are then able to use the asylum states military, CIA, etc., as a weapon against the factions they are battling against. Once the asylum states government has enough factions or the ruling faction in its back pocket, it can then do whatever it wants whenever it wants to. Hence, predator drone strikes around the clock, without warning and without consequence. This is how the strategy of divide and conquer works……………..

At least in Russia or China, the population knows what they can expect from their government, somewhat.

It is a problem when we can’t even get a definition of what a terrorist is…Isn’t that a problem? It is a problem for the masses, not for the government as now the government can manufacture what ever they want, for what ever reason they want and they don’t have to tell us a damn thing. They only started talking about the drones because they knew the story was going public sooner or later and that the Public HAS NO RECOURSE CONCERNING THE POLICY. They don’t give a Flying F*cK about you, me or any other middle or lower class person. Our country needs a revolution of values, one that puts people before profits.

He said that Obama thought waterboarding was bad, then what is this (speaking about the President’s murder list and assassination policy) Obama says that he needs a judge to approve a warrant to wiretap you but he (Obomber) can have you killed without charge, trial, or judicial process of any kind on his say so alone.

Obama’s drone assassination policy reminds me of zapping cockroaches in your home with pesticide. But what happens after you zap all the cockroaches? Answer: they come back (at least after a few months)! Obama’s attempt at rooting out “the evil doers” will fail as miserably as any attempt to destroy all the cockroaches on the planet. The military industrial complex has a profitable game going for itself that will endure for generations or until we can no longer pay our bills to foreign financiers.

I just took a look at this latest post. It’s pathetic. I’m all for giving readers the floor but being totally condescending? No readers/commenters deserve that. Engage or don’t engage. If you aren’t going to honestly engage people upset with you, move on to the next issue or topic you want to cover.

I never referenced Russia and China being free speech zones. I only mention the irrefutable fact that Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Hu Jintao, to the best of anyone’s knowledge, are not currently allowing any asylum states predator drone strikes on their soil and killling their citizens. If you know something no one else knows about this, please, by all means, share it. Otherwise stick to essence of what is posted and not stray off way into right field to what you think was posted…………….

Oh I understand the concept. Miss America is prostituting herself all over the world for the causes of the military industrial complex, materialism and racism in all its forms.In addition, the corporate political elite and the propaganda machines make huge financial profits from the divide and conquer mentality.

I’m contemplating emailing Jane to request FDL sever that relationship. TBogg has been increasingly insulting to us, the readership, over the last few weeks. His regulars resent that his blog is tied to the larger FDL body, and his opinions now conflict greatly with those of the organization at large.

I know Jane has a lot on her plate at the moment. Personal matters that I certainly don’t want to intrude on. I’m just tried of seeing folks like you, Petro, hotdog, etc., browbeat for being unwilling to accept a Murderer-In-Chief.

Edit – I’ll add that I found it absurd for TBogg to come into your post last week and insult you, your writing, your subject matter, and the readers. It was incredibly unprofessional.

I would agree. Certainly the war party of republicans and democrats needs to be overthrown. I must ask, what would revolution look like? Can it be peaceful or must it be violent in your view? At present, there is less than 2 percent of population smart enough to vote against the war party of republicans and democrats. So how do you propose to keep the Obombers, the Spit Romney’s of the world out of the White House, the Congress, and the Supreme Court?

He REALLY revealed his moral and intellectual paucity on Kevin’s weekend thread. That is who he is, that is who he will always be. At least he makes a living off it–his sycophantic followers do what they do for free. (major eye roll)

I think it may go further than that. TBogg apparently cannot stomach Romney and thinks the only way forward is with the democrats, since the thugs will strip away everything we have. Someone has a nice post up over there sort of explaining the general viewpoint.

This election is going to be very hard on the people at FDL. Many will vote for Obama because they are terrified (with good reason) of the Rs, some will vote for Obama because they are Democrats and a few will vote for Obama because they agree with him – very few, IMO. I have never thought that I was schizophrenic but I keep saying “I will not vote for Obama, but, please, God, don’t let the Republicans win.” I feel trashed by this entire thing but I will not vote for Obama – the Rs don’t scare me THAT much.

Three people were killed by the first missile. Then, following the attack, twelve people arrived to rescue and bury the dead and were killed by a second missile

I kinda hate to bring this up, but isn’t that a standard al-Qaeda tactic, to blow something up, wait until a large number of people converge on the scene, and then blow all of them up? How can we claim the moral high ground against al-Qaeda if the difference between us is not how civilized and humane we are but the fact that our toys are more high-tech?

The republicans terrify me. Romney is a soulless hack. I’m sure his administration will be worse than an Obama admin. That being said, I cannot vote for a murderer. Romney hasn’t killed anybody yet.

Not that I’ll vote for Romney, either. I’ll vote for a third party. As for who actually wins the election, I’m sure it will be Obama. If not, I don’t give a shit. I’ve already accepted that things will get worse before they get better. I think most of the activist community has accepted this as well. Things will have to get worse for our numbers to grow.

A revolution of values to me means that the revolution needs to start with the individual as value is a social construct. If enough individuals change the construct of what is valuable, things could change. To be quite honest, I have only got as far as seeing that a values revolution needs to take place, but how to implement that is something I am still working on.

Recently, I just did a 30 page paper on the discourse of war and how the American government has steam rolled the American people into war and kept them there. I looked at it through the lense of Martin Luther King, Jr. and what he said would be the downfall of America–the excesses of militarism, materialism and racism.

Just so you know, the scholarly journals are replete with evidence of war crimes by the American government. Document after document that I looked at just added to the evidence. Did you know that the Western Alliance sold thousands of Afghani’s and others into slavery for $50-$5000 a person? Having a casio watch got the person sent to guantanamo or other black ops sites as a terrorist. That was not something I ever heard on the news, but found it in one of the journal articles.

The drone strikes are just more of the same…actions by the elite who have no value for humanity only profits.

I agree with your comment. How are we any different from the terrorists? Yesterday a poster suggested that this was akin to killing medics on a battlefield. Absolutely reprehensible and utterly revolting. These are war crimes and the President needs to be held accountable for his lawless behavior.

Kevin commented in that thread that he was not okay with folks calling for TBogg’s dismissal from the Lake. I’m okay with it.

As a paying member my annual dues support his salary. That’s not cool with me any longer.

I also noticed that while TBogg issued his neo-conservative, Rush Limbaugh-style non-apology apology, he never apologized for telling someone to ‘blow’ him. Just apologized for doing it in Kevin’s thread.

Like I said, he really revealed himself. It’s a mystery to me how it benefits FDL to be associated with him or his pack of howling sycophants. Seriously. BTW, he has banned me, I CAN’T COMMENT ON HIS SITE!! Irony, much?

As a paying member my annual dues support his salary. That’s not cool with me any longer.

I can respect that. Just understand the comment I made came from a belief that the people who fund us should decide when to stop supporting people in the FDL family. I have no problem with taking issue with fellow writers here and having debates. I don’t feel comfortable with saying a person should be dismissed because they wrote something people didn’t like. That is for FDL readers and, more importantly, members to decide.

He actually never apologized to the readers he was vile toward in my thread. And the latest post he put up is not only ridiculous but also lazy. It’s snobbish and quite condescending toward the people there. Assuming that some of you would be willing to debate him if he was able to handle himself better, I take issue with the decision to slap up a long comment and say here’s a post that I loathe and I’m going to bait my audience into slinging slime at me.

I respect your position and understand that you’re in a different one than I am. As his colleague you did what you should; challenge him respectfully, call him out on his bullshit, and insist he apologize. You also drew the appropriate line in not calling for his dismissal.

As you point out I’m in a different position. I’m just troubled by the idea of bothering Jane with this stupid shit at such a difficult and personal time for her.

I’ve always been a Dem LOTE voter, Liberal or Progressive, as those labels have generally been defined, and currently likely to vote third party in 2012.

If someone is outraged by some of the major Obama policies (drone wars, Constitution shredding, the PhRMA deal, safety net on the table, we all know the items on the list) but sees some reason to vote for him anyway (SCOTUS, Romney worse, pre-existing conditions), even though that reason isn’t sufficient for me, then we have one sort of discussion. We can continue to compare points of view right up until election eve. We can also discuss, apart from electoral politics, what changes are needed and how we can work for them at whatever levels of activism and advocacy we think we can participate, because the work is needed now, and will be after the election.

However, if someone who plans to continue to vote Dem is cheering the drone strikes, or isn’t bothered by the Constitution shredding or the repression of dissent, or would discourage issue advocacy because it brings up issues that may interfere with Obama’s electoral prospects, if the full extent of their critique of Obama and the Dems is that “of course they’re disappointed, but they never expected a pony…” it’s a different discussion. I’m not advocating name-calling, extreme sarcasm (we need a little !), or thread hijacking. But this will be a discussion among people who are not on the same side of crucial issues of life and liberty, and I expect that both content and tone will be different from a discussion between people who agree on the big issues, but not the tactics.

Kevin, all your writing is a huge contribution, and I wouldn’t usually try to single out one topic or post as more valuable than another. However, bringing together this horrific topic of drone strikes, media response, and “liberal” response has been exceptionally thought-provoking. Thank you for all your work.

Yes, Kevin is infinitely more classy, and yes, it’s a shame Jane has matters of the heart to deal with. But, in Jane’s absence, a lot of ugly shit is being generated by people ostensibly wielding authority they got through her, and, IMO, they are doing major damage to the fabulous site and the community she so heroically and lovingly created. I see it every day, and I know the damage is real and major. I wish somebody would take charge of the situation already.

I really owe everyone who reads my work thanks. It is tremendously refreshing to come to my posts and see fifty, sixty, seventy or so comments where people are actually discussing the issue of these drone strikes. Now, some of the comments might be snark and that’s okay. But, actually, in the last days, people have really been unloading their views on Obama’s covert drone war here and I appreciate it.

I think that just affirms what Chris Hayes said on “Up with Chris” on Saturday. The issue had been “bubbling a bit” but just this week, after the New York Times released their major story, the issue of drones and, more specifically, the way targets of drones were being selected “really kind of entered the national conversation assertively for the first time.”

Again, thank you all for utilizing the comments thread in a way that makes me want to go the extra mile to give you a next post and a next post and a next post.

One more thing to address TBogg & any future conduct by writers in the comments threads of my posts —

He said this over the weekend:

Out of deference to Kevin, I’m not going to respond to soryofo, realitychecker, holybuybull, and ProgThis.

Kudos, guys. You finally found a way to win something.

I would just like to establish that the issue wasn’t and isn’t whether TBogg or any other writer should be allowed to come into this comments thread and engage and debate people. It is whether someone should be allowed to come in and comment and make obnoxious comments toward others for having views on issues or topics that they do not agree with.

Now, I won’t be able to satisfy those of you that are angry with TBogg by ensuring he doesn’t post here tomorrow or any time in the future. I do understand the frustration of funding a website that keeps people that do not treat readers well as a part of the team.

Since I was mentioned by name, let me be clear that I don’t favor censorship or banning from commenting–let a fool or a knave reveal himself fully, I say, even in strong or nasty language, we’re all adults here. (TBogg likes banning dissenters, though, and I am banned from his site.) Paying him to be officially associated with this site is an entirely different animal. It calls into question what the whole community is about if a new reader clicks on his thread.

The entire story revealed in the NYT puff piece is incredibly disturbing for me. I think the most outrageous piece of this is that the Administration is actually asserting that the right to due process under the law is being met by these ‘Terror Tuesday’ Power Point presentations and the subsequent deliberations.

It’s a drone assassination reality show. The Judges get to sit there and deliberate the contestants fate. Then they vote someone off the island. Horrifying.

Just as President Obama has accepted the wisdom of the post-prescient music video “Bush Was Right,” sooner or later all you racist progressives busy destroying America will accept the wisdom of TBogg, and fund a new video, “TBogg Was Right! — My President’s Re-Election is the Only Thing That Matters(r)(tm).”

Thanks for that great comment, marym. I think it relates to what is really the fundamental legacy (evil, if you will) that Obama has already left us with: He has fundamentally changed the way basically decent people in this country now must talk to each other, and certainly those within the Democratic Party.

Instead of talking about actively making people’s lives better — the march toward a more civilized society (universal healthcare, stronger social security, better education and more financial security) — those of us who really care about such things are in a desperate scramble just to hold the line against what would have been recognized not so very long ago for the criminality it is: a lawless presidency, predatory crony capitalism, a growing militarized police state and the loss of liberty, human rights abuses, endless war (drone, drug, and otherwise).

Not knowing how one can address any of these issues with old allies will make for a long, troubling, rancorous 5 months to election day. And for those of us convinced that things will only get much, much worse after that — no matter which unprincipled and ruthless liar gets elected president — we have the further challenge of steeling ourselves for the longer trial ahead.

You may have missed AG Holder’s explanation that judicial process and due process are not the same. I think the author of this non-justification for murder was the same person who penned Clinton’s “definition of is” argument.

I caught that. What baffles me is that the Constitution assures us ‘due process of the law’. I don’t recall unelected staffers from the Executive Branch and the Pentagon every being considered ‘the law’. Apparently Holder and OilBomber beg to differ.

You must have missed the memo that alerted us to the fact that the Bill of Rights has been superseded by the Patriot Act. By the way, we no longer inhabit a democratic republic, it’s really a corporatocracy that is run as a dictatorship.

Does TBogg benefit in any way when people click on your articles? His type of blogging should stand (or fall) on it’s own. I did click on his site originally assuming it was up to the standards of others at FDL and learned quickly to avoid it so RC’s comment is right on. Hypocrisy should be shunned as much as possible at FDL.

> You may have missed AG Holder’s explanation that judicial process
> and due process are not the same

Exactly. Because he didn’t include “of law” after “due process” it could mean anything. Like “due process of magic,” or “due process of random acts of kindness” or “due process of whatever-the-fuck-we-want-it-to-be” and other reasonable things intended by the framers of the Constitution.

The targeting of people who are mourning or engaged in rescuing people or burying the dead is likely illegal and clearly inhumane

I’m sure the USG has said as much in one of its statements after a double bombing in Iraq or Israel when a second bomb was detonated specifically to kill the rescuers. Those double bombings were the work of terrorists. So I guess droning rescuers is also an act of terrorism?

At the risk of sounding like a fool I would like to encourage all those who respond to the increasingly evil drone strikes on funerals, those rushing to the aid of victims and become victims themselves, wedding parties, dinner parties, Afghan & Pak community jirgas, to share your revulsion with fellow Americans by teaching them about these illegal and insidious drone strikes. I have observed that many of those who participate in threads like the current one have teacherly qualities. Yet our frustration at not being able to stop the drone attacks leads many of us to dismiss fellow citizens who may be unaware of these attacks or equally as frustrated as ourselves. My recommendation? Teach (educate) and organize. Use your talents – make a video, write, make music, write, ask questions at public forums, share what you’ve learned with your neighbors, write, make posters, and above all be patient with those who don’t grasp the situation as readily and rapidly as yourself. I once showed my students a photo of a 10-year old Iraqi girl who had been wounded in an air strike in 2003 – her uncle was holding her and her foot had been almost completely severed and was dangling grotesquely. I then explained that the girl was deaf and had not heard the sound of the missile as it approached her house. That photo made it so easy to begin teaching the kids about the lethality and brutality of war. In 2004, the wounded girl was fitted with a prosthesis.

Download and print a Kevin G post and share it with your friends – you may be surprised at the outcome of initiating a dialogue. Hell, your video might even go viral!

The truly pathetic part of this illegal drone war is when some other 911 event happens, Americans and the propaganda media will feign utter shock and disbelief that some persons would dare hate America and attack it.

Northrup Grumman is one of the biggest manufacturers, I read this week. (Aaaargh, my cousin is an engineer for them, and her husband is a V.P.; I wonder if that’ll get me any kind of immunity? Honestly, I’d settle for just a little extra consideration lol.)

It’s all very strange that the Obama crowd is using the same Fear card that is typically reserved for conservatives to get other folks to do what they want them to. And the Dems have the nerve to pretend there’s a difference.

You’re right in what you say, but I thought you were going to be more literal, as in, what might we say here that would get us branded as eligible for detention or a drone strike? I know my speech is chilled, and FDL management has made clear that they also feel the need to be cautious. Ari Fleischer said we had to be careful what we say, but only Obama makes me feel personally threatened in that regard.

Maybe it’s more a question of building alliances in a different way. I have no skills in political strategy, but a there was a some discussion about it this morning at the Diner post that made me think about it.

Someone open to changing their mind about drone strikes if they had information other than what’s in the msm, may be a more likely ally for the long term (regardless of what choice they make for the 2012 election) than a Dem loyalist who’s well-informed about the drone strikes and cheering for them.

Same logic for, say, social safety net issues – aren’t my “allies” if I’m concerned about homelessness more likely to be people who have been working on homeless issues, or veterans issues, and going up equally against D and R officials over the years, rather than Dem loyalists who think of social programs as just another pony they didn’t happen to get (a pony they themselves apparently don’t need for survival, but that’s another discussion).

If there’s any future possibility of third party politics, or new social or econmic paradigms, there has to be a some different approach than D and R and the 2012 election isn’t a big part of it.

I hold them to be mostly identical (Obama and Romney). However, I think Obama has a slight edge on what I consider to be non-political issues like womens’ freedom in healthcare choices.

Also too, I think the race to the bottom will be slightly accelerated under a Romney admin. Not to say that Obama and Romney won’t both do the same shitty stuff, just that Romney will do that shitty stuff faster.

No concern for me though. As I said above – Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead.

Obama a mass murderer? Oh yes, I’ve said it myself on many occasions. That being said the total amount of death and destruction in the world has decreased over the last 3 and 1/2 years.

Kinda like the folks who are quick to point out that in Keynesianism, collective finance is far different than individual finance; thus the government should go into ruinous debt to prevent an even more ruinous depression.

Likewise with Obama, supporting this particular murderer prevents even more catastrophic murdering and mayhem.

Want an alternative? Put as much or more effort into constitutional reform of elections as gay marriage. Proportional representation leads to better government, which is why the elites hate it.

Ha! Perhaps there is a difference between the two parties and their candidates after all: Efficiency. Maybe the inefficiency of the Democrats, and therefore their relative slowness in the race to the bottom, is a function of the incompatibility of their rhetoric with their actions.

Daniel Klaidman has a new book out tomorrow on Obama and Drone Warfare. I commented about it yesterday, it was on Ddrudge. He quotes Obama as saying in 2009 he knew Romney would have the extra powers (at that time, indefinite detention specifically) Obama was claiming for the Presidency, but he was OK with that. So, if Obama doesn’t see where Romney would be worse in how he uses all that (illegitimate, IMO) power, then what are we arguing about here? Obama doesn’t think Romney would be worse, or any other Rethug, obviously.

I certainly worry about that especially after reading the NYT piece and Newsweek’s companion article that describe Obama’s embracing the dronification of warfare. His agonizing over the targeting and then locking memos away in a DoJ safe give him legal justification? Is this the “Fuhrer principle” come home to roost in the Oval Office?

It’s heavy shit, billyc. The old question: How was it that regular, decent Germans went along with the Nazis? Answer: The same way most of us in the US go along now. We are not the ones being persecuted, imprisoned or killed. We have a lot to lose in leaving the country or resisting (in the Black Panther and Ulrike Meinhof sense of the word). We enjoy the benefits of empire. So we look away, go along, pretend it is otherwise and rationalize our participation. When we are shown the meat hook realities of what we have consented to or ignored, we will recoil in horror. Have you ever seen the footage of Good Germans being force-marched through concentrations camps in 1945? They are genuinely aghast, trembling at the sight of ovens and piles of shoes and glasses. Take a good look at those faces. They will likely be ours soon. And some folks will say, looking to extricate themselves from guilt, “Well, I voted for Obama.” But it won’t matter.

And what has been going on since 9/11–our own personal Reichstag fire–is exactly the Fuehrer Principle. No people have a monopoly on that age-old doctrine.

“Secrecy is the keystone to all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy and censorship. When any government or church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, “This you may not read, this you must not know,” the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives.” –Robert Heinlein

Revolution begins in the mind. Before you can change or overthrow the system, you must first understand that it is necessary to do so, and that sufficient popular action can accomplish this. Once you understand that, you are one large step closer to being a revolutionary.

When enough people in America develop a revolutionary mind, revolution will happen. The trick is getting there.

As to whether there will be violence: yes. Police have already attacked peaceful protesters without justification all over the US and they will continue to do so. Whether there will or must be violence by the people… that’s not something I feel comfortable speculating on.

If you want to see high government officials that are neither Democrat or Republican, then we will need to put them there. In other words: major grassroots campaigns for third parties and independents. A couple days ago someone suggested that I vote for Jill Stein (Green Party) for President this fall, and I believe I will do so; what’s more, I will try to get other progressives to do so as well, because the only way she’s even going to make a blip in the election is if enough people abandon the Democrats. Considering that the Democrat candidate is Obama, a war criminal who’s blatantly and willfully violated the Constitution, I can’t think of a better election year for everyone left of center to get over their fear that the Republican might win and give the Dems the finger.

This fear is exactly what the Democrats rely on. “You’d better vote for us, or that other guy will win. You don’t want him to win, do you? He’s EVIL.” And then we vote for Dems and maybe they win and then they largely abandon progressives and turn out to be wimpy Republicans-lite. Because they figure they have us by the short hairs, there’s no viable alternative.

We need to turn this fear around on them. We need to show them that if they don’t do what we want, we will abandon them! And that they’ll never win another goddamn election without the progressive vote. And yes, we might end up with a Republican if we do that, but so what? America has already become a fascist dictatorship, ruled by plutocrats and theocrats, and led by a man – a Democrat! – who decides every day which people he’d like to kill. Does it really matter whether a Democrat or a a Republican is in the White House anymore?

Excellent comments at both #125 & #126! Yes, I have studied that era extensively, especially after having visited Dachau with my father, when I was 9-years old. Out of all the books and films I’ve acquired over the years the one I cherish the most is a great little book written by Karl Jaspers, entitled The Question of German Guilt. It was written by Jaspers immediately after the war while he was teaching at the University of Heidelberg. He differentiated between criminal guilt – those who were active participants in the Holocaust – and political guilt – the Germans responsible for sustaining and enabling the Nazis and Hitler. He also discussed individual guilt – those who knew of the crimes but did nothing and only they knew they were guilty. Powerful stuff – the thoughts from that book are implicit in your comments. Thanks for helping me recall that book. Jaspers, BTW, was teacher, mentor, and friend to Hannah Arendt. His book was an attempt to wrestle with the concept of collective guilt, something we may have to do some day in regard to our crimes in the ME.

I’ll take that as a large compliment (the teacherly part), and thank you for it. Learning is special, and therefore teachers are special. My impatience stems from the fact that I am 61, and am afraid I will die before I see us become civilized and/or rational as a nation.

Always a pleasure to see your fonts, otto, but, unfortunately, you are exactly correct. I was born in 1951 and half-Jewish, and my youth was preoccupied with trying to understand how the Nazi evil could have happened. To see it now in my own country fills me with equal parts rage and shame.

realitychecker commented on the blog post The Cumulative Propaganda of Media Coverage of Drone Assassinations

2012-06-04 00:56:36View | Delete

realitychecker June 3rd, 2012 at 4:13 pm 40 (reprinted from another thread)

Daniel Klaidman has a new book out this week on Obama’s Presidency. From an article in The Telegraph (taken from Drudge ): “Klaidman writes in his book that shortly after taking office in 2009, Mr Obama was already keenly aware of the possibility that he might be ousted by the former Massachusetts governor after one term.

“You never know who is going to be president four years from now,” Mr Obama is said to have told aides during a discussion about whether he should be able to detain terror suspects indefinitely. “I have to think about how Mitt Romney would use that power.”” (forgive my demon keyboard) So, Romney with the power to kill and ignore the Constitution is OK with Obama, and presumably with all his supporters, as well. So, a Romney win in November? It’s all good. Glad we can stop arguing about it.

No shit. I’ve been to Dachau myself. In fact, it was that visit I had in mind when I wrote those comments. I remember standing on a hill in a flower-covered meadow looking down toward the town and thinking, “How did no one know about this?” But here in the US we live next to prisons filled with the poor, the brown, the illegals, the enemies of the state and we have no ideas about them either.

There is a native German woman a little older than you in my town who runs a tailor shop. Recently, she has taken to displaying a list of the hallmarks of Fascism in her shop as a warning to her fellow Americans. She says it has cost her some customers. I say, “Hey neighbors, no point in looking away. This is about as close to the horse’s mouth as we are likely to get on this subject. Pay some fucking heed.”

Oh yes, I read that post. One would think that when the boss himself says there is no appreciable difference . . .

And for what it is worth, I’m with you on the TBogg nonsense. Ye gods! I read his posts and think, “What is this place, Free Republic?” Ideological talking points for the faithful (e.g. Obama doesn’t just kill people “willy-nilly”–holy shit, is that you, Donald Rumsfeld?) and ad hominem attacks for the critical.

Gotta run, but before I do I want to give a shout out of thanks to Kevin G for the yeoman’s work he has done covering OWS, Bradley Manning, and now this business of drones. Kevin, your work is exceptional and your restraint is commendable when faced with detractors, if you know what I mean.

And a thank you to the sheer number of impassioned political activists, who have heart and soul, and superb intellects, one encounters almost daily here at FDL. Great community of folks trying to get the shit flowing back up hill!!

I too went to Dachau. I was entirely Jewish at the time (atheist now) and it was a shuddering indictment of humanity. And now, the President of the United States will proudly kill anyone, anywhere. No law or review needed, just off with their head! (And getting his “head” “off”, if we can believe the tale at #1. You stud, Barry. You big hairy stud.)

KrisAinTX, “Damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead” was supposedly Commodore Farragut’s quote during the Battle of Mobile Bay, IIRC.