(06-09-2012 12:47 AM)sticks128 Wrote: The girl I am debating with just said "I don't think God is responsible for making the earth rotate. I know he is." And the context was not a "he created the Universe so everything that happens naturally is because of him" but rather a "I feel every day he is spinning it on his metaphysical finger like a basketball" context.

It honestly feels like I just got punched in the stomach.

I don't have much experience yet with debating with theists. I myself was one many years ago and I've been reading forum posts a lot lately. So, take this with a big pile of salt if you must.

Did this debate begin spontaneously? Did you establish what you each hoped to come away from it with in the end?

From your last post it sounds like her continued interest in this debate is that she believes she will convert you.

No matter the outcome, you should both learn something from the experience. I would just take care feeding into her requests. Maybe just try to keep this verbal and not allow it to develop into each of you challenging each other with activities or involvement.

Also, as long as she continues attending church and spending most of her time with other Christians, all your work is likely for naught. If she shows no signs of doubt at all, then I would not expect your enlightenment to have an effect on her. Her fellows in Christ will likely "explain away" anything you say that may make her feel uncomfortable.

But, I could be wrong. We only have a small description so far of your dealings with her. Can you describe how she seems to feel about the subject matter you have so far offered her? Can you describe how she seems to feel about your continued debate? Does she seem inquisitive? Does she genuinely seem interested to know what your opinion is on religion? Or does she seem more eager to share more of what she knows with you?

EDIT: I read your last post again. It occurs to me that this doesn't sound like someone I would attempt to reason with.

“Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead.”
― Thomas Paine

...and then found another which seems to conflict:

“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.”
― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

“Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead.”
― Thomas Paine

...and then found another which seems to conflict:

“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.”
― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

I'm going to stop trying to help now.

The second quote is his observation that people will believe long-held myths; that time somehow gives them weight.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

(06-09-2012 06:03 PM)Chas Wrote: The second quote is his observation that people will believe long-held myths; that time somehow gives them weight.

Interesting. What I took away from his second quote there was the suggestion that anyone looking to convert someone else's opinion should be prepared with patience. That logic and reason are all well and good, but when the listener has been believing a thing for quite some time, it takes time for the seeds of reason to take root.

I thought the core ideal of the quote was patience. Conversely, the first quote seems to suggest one not waste one's time on those who refuse to see reason.

I suppose it all depends on the listener.

EDIT: I believe I do see how you interpreted the final sentence of the quote though. You and I both are likely thinking about the same thing in 2 different ways. You seem to be saying "time has converted this person (to their current way of thinking) rather than reason." What I was saying logically follows, which is "since they came to this line of thinking over a long time, reason is unlikely to be as effective as time and patience."

Quote:For the most part, my Facebook friends are at least agnostic or open-minded enough to not fuss at me over any freethinking or anti-religion stuff I post. I have a few who will occasionally toss out a 'share this if you'll pray for this person who has cancer' thingy, but I just hide those, shrug and move on.

That's how my F-list is now, but it wasn't always that way.

But the crazy, crazy woman I was talking about actually goes through everyone on her f-list's page-"likes" and trolls the pages. Like she'll tell them if she thinks it's in bad taste and generally she seems to feel like she's the internet-police. My aunt posted an Obama thing on my mom's FB wall, and this crazy woman called her and bitched at her for an hour, when my mom didn't even post it. So that's why she went through all my old "likes" and ended up on cracked.com, where they were making fun of a bad painting of Jesus, saying he looked like a pedo in it. He did. And it was funny, but she didn't think so.

Quote:I've trimmed down my list a bit more due to the reactions I was getting from theist friends that was unacceptable.

The think I really can't grasp is that I used to be inundated with posts from Christians and I never once said anything. I never trolled them. But any time I posted anything remotely not in line with their views, they pounced all over me. And because they believe they have "the Truth," they think this is ok and have no idea why I don't like to be called an idiot for not converting to their religion. =D

Sorry for the double post, but I had to share the fact that I was just Godwin'd today and I had to vent.

Apparently, standing up for human rights and saying religion can cause hatred and division is EXACTLY the same as what Hitler did in the Holocaust! Who knew?

Quote:I just want to say Amy your opinion on religon is remarkably similar to that of people like Hitler's on Judaism the only difference being he had much more power than you.
You are playing a dangerous game if people listen and agree with you harm will come of it and if people disagree harm will come of it and even possibly you. You are right wars can be caused by feuding religons but to date there has been none between anti-religon and pro-religon.
You are taking the first step on a very long jouney and look up towards the horizon and ask yourself if you are going along the right path.

Same guy says I should be more "passive" when it comes to offending religious folks, even when human rights are concerned. Yeah, I see him getting removed from my F-list soon...

Dude thinks there is no good reason to EVER question religion or hurt anyone's religious feelings, including, apparently, when religion makes people violate human rights and kill each other (Salem witch trials, European witch burning, people getting killed over Innocence of Muslims, etc).

I think the confusion is he thinks, if I had "power," I would forcibly get rid of religion. I certainly would not. But I would hope to further human rights and to stop indoctrinating young children, because I think that closes their minds to other possibilities and makes it very hard to come to their own conclusions.

Strange, I never really thought of myself as being much like Hitler until today...

Dude thinks there is no good reason to EVER question religion or hurt anyone's religious feelings, including, apparently, when religion makes people violate human rights and kill each other (Salem witch trials, European witch burning, people getting killed over Innocence of Muslims, etc).

I think the confusion is he thinks, if I had "power," I would forcibly get rid of religion. I certainly would not. But I would hope to further human rights and to stop indoctrinating young children, because I think that closes their minds to other possibilities and makes it very hard to come to their own conclusions.

Strange, I never really thought of myself as being much like Hitler until today...

Oddly enough, I've always pictured you with that little moustache.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

It kinda blows my mind sometimes, the way some theists prove all my points about the problems with religion without realizing it.

And I'm very offended when people tell me I'm not allowed to mention being an atheist and I should keep my atheist mouth shut, even when I see harmful things being done because of religion. Everyone worries about "religious feelings," what about my "atheist feelings?" They get hurt all the time!