"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

That's the ones I was gonna post. How's the ring working? It tell you how to dodge the direct words of your savior yet?

Bahramthered I apologize if I was unclear. My intent was to use metaphor to compare DNC to a baby seal that you had clubbed 9 times when once ('though he did ask for twice) would suffice. The inference being that dnc's argument was child-like and naive.

And I wanted to make a pun about you having the word 'count' in your name, but you're counting to 9 instead of 2.

I wish I did have a decoder ring. I'm glad I have no saviour.

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"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

I was thanking Count Iblis for that list. It seems to be dead on for the list I have squirreled away.

The magic ring is a joke I've been throwing at christians for years. I actually think I missed your post after Count Iblis's and have no clue what baby seals your reffering to.

Yes, I've seen the decoder ring comments around. This was totally my fault. I should have realized while I was typing that the names bahramthered and count iblis were somewhat different. Haven't slept yet. Sorry.

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"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 17:1-11 (the very next passage) is the transfiguration of Jesus in all His glory.

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Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

As you can clearly see, Jesus was not referring to His second coming in this passage.

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Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:15-44

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

As you can see, Jesus is not referring to the current generation, but to the generation in which the signs are fulfilled.

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Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 26:62-64 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.""Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

In your lifetime and in the future could, but do not neccesarily, mean the same thing. They certainly didn't here.

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Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The next passage is the tranfiguration of Jesus in all His glory.

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Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Mark 13 is very similar to Matthew 24. The same explanation applies here.

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Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This has the same explanation as Matthew 26:64

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Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Jesus was speaking privately to the disciples, and the very next passage is the transfiguration!

^^^^^^isnt' it amazing on what you can do if you make up the context and make baseless assumptions!

1. I didn't make up the context. (At least I had context, which is more than I can say for you.)

2. You didn't have a base for your assumptions, and you assumed they were factual anyway.

3. We know Jesus existed. We know He claimed he was the Son of God. He was either the Son of God or a liar. People don't go around lying and performing miracles.

4. The disciples who followed Him knew what he claimed, and believed. From their accounts , Jesus rose from the dead. They stood by this claim to the point of death. They even wrote books on His life. If you actually believe that what is written in the Bible is true (such as those quotes that you pointed out), you must also believe (as Jesus said) that He was the Son of God, and He was not lying.

^^^^^^isnt' it amazing on what you can do if you make up the context and make baseless assumptions!

People don't go around lying and performing miracles.

Yes they do, what about all the people who have claimed to be the 2nd coming of jesus? How about all those people who claim to perform miracles on tv? The power of money has a great effect on people's faith.

^^^^^^isnt' it amazing on what you can do if you make up the context and make baseless assumptions!

1. I didn't make up the context. (At least I had context, which is more than I can say for you.)

2. You didn't have a base for your assumptions, and you assumed they were factual anyway.

3. We know Jesus existed. We know He claimed he was the Son of God. He was either the Son of God or a liar. People don't go around lying and performing miracles.

4. The disciples who followed Him knew what he claimed, and believed. From their accounts , Jesus rose from the dead. They stood by this claim to the point of death. They even wrote books on His life. If you actually believe that what is written in the Bible is true (such as those quotes that you pointed out), you must also believe (as Jesus said) that He was the Son of God, and He was not lying.

People don't go around performing miracles. That I can agree with. People do go around lying and people do believe that miracles are done without evidence. Asclepius was said to have done miracles of healing too. Do you beleive in him too?

I agree that if you believe the Bible is completely true, by default you beleive that Jeus was who he said he was. So, how many miracles greater than Jesus have you done? That's true, isn't it? "John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." As for the reports of the apostles, there is NO evidence that any of the gospels were from eyewitnesses. We do not know Jesus Christ existed. There are no contemporary mentions of him at all. And one would think that walking dead, great miracles, etc would have gotten some mention. Could there have been some intinerant rabbi that was the kernal for such myths? Perhaps but this is then not "Jesus, Son of God".

Let's work with your first claimed verse.

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Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 17:1-11 (the very next passage) is the transfiguration of Jesus in all His glory.

The "very next passage" is supposedly 6 days later. The people standing there in 16:28 aren't all around for the verse 17:1. It also says that Jesus will need to come into his kingdom. This does not say "transfiguration", it says kingdom. Jesus is to supposedly get a kingdom of heaven on earth, correct?

EDIT: added a "not" "We do not know Jesus Christ existed."

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 10:55:14 AM by velkyn »

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Vespasian healed a lame man and a blind man by the powers given to him by Serapis.

Apollonius of Tyana was credited with miracles and divinity much the same as Jesus.

Those are just two examples from the essay.

You don't see many disciples of Vespasian or followers of Apollonius anymore, yet there are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of followers of Jesus. What made Jesus different?

(Just as a side note, there are many people who may be though of as "on my team" and aren't. Let me be the judge of that.)

True these people did not have massive amounts of followers like jesus, but even today there are people who claim to perform miracles. Michael travesser being one, granted he doesn't have a huge following but he does have a following. It's easy to claim the impossible and make people believe it.

Vespasian healed a lame man and a blind man by the powers given to him by Serapis.

Apollonius of Tyana was credited with miracles and divinity much the same as Jesus.

Those are just two examples from the essay.

You don't see many disciples of Vespasian or followers of Apollonius anymore, yet there are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of followers of Jesus. What made Jesus different?

(Just as a side note, there are many people who may be though of as "on my team" and aren't. Let me be the judge of that.)

True these people did not have massive amounts of followers like jesus, but even today there are people who claim to perform miracles. Michael travesser being one, granted he doesn't have a huge following but he does have a following. It's easy to claim the impossible and make people believe it.

It is quite a bit harder to claim to do the impossible in front of a group of normal people who believe what you did and said enough to die defending you.

You don't see many disciples of Vespasian or followers of Apollonius anymore, yet there are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of followers of Jesus. What made Jesus different?

Moving the goalposts?

I'm not sure if it had anything to do with Jesus or his teachings, but instead, of the goal of the early church to do away with competing religions.

What difference does the length in history or number of followers have to do with Christianity's claims to truth? There are still Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians. Does that mean they have all cornered the market on god and the afterlife?

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"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

(Just as a side note, there are many people who may be though of as "on my team" and aren't. Let me be the judge of that.)

Nut-job televangelists are the face of christianity around the world, and yet how many theists like yourself take them to task for their nonsense? You should spend your time setting them straight rather than spinning your wheels here.

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There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.-- Bernie Katz

the what!!?? Would you mind explaining exactly what you meant by that? (with sources, naturally)

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What difference does the length in history or number of followers have to do with Christianity's claims to truth? There are still Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians. Does that mean they have all cornered the market on god and the afterlife?

There are quite a few people who have the right idea about the existence of God, but got everything else wrong. The point I was trying to make was that Christianity actually grew during the first century after Jesus' death (and resurrection), despite the efforts of many to extinct it. Apparently death was not enough to make the early Christians recant their beliefs. Why would someone who had only heard of Jesus and acknowledged Him as Lord yesterday refuse to deny Him while facing being burned at the stake?

Why is Christianity so strongly persecuted? Even if Christians are wrong, belief in Jesus doesn't harm anything.

(Just as a side note, there are many people who may be though of as "on my team" and aren't. Let me be the judge of that.)

Nut-job televangelists are the face of christianity around the world, and yet how many theists like yourself take them to task for their nonsense? You should spend your time setting them straight rather than spinning your wheels here.

The ones who are actually Christians are forgiven by Jesus for their atrocities. The atheists who deny Jesus' existence aren't. Apparently most atheists deny Christianity so fervently that they never stopped to think what would happen if they are wrong.

If I'm wrong, then I am wasting my time debating with you. If atheists are wrong, they will face the judgement of a perfect, omnipotent, and omniscient God with nobody to defend them.

The choice is yours, but the stakes are high. You had better be absolutely sure you are right!