What I consider p2w: Anything that increases the effectiveness of your character. This includes any types of boosts.

What I will quit if they sell: Stat boosts, gear that is equal to, or especially better than the highest and second highest tier, basically anything that would make me feel like my character isn't min-maxed if I don't buy it.

WoW having more subs than SWTOR is the same thing as Justin Bieber having more youtube plays than Tupac. Just because its more popular doesn't mean its good.
Warcraft Lore has gone from one of the most vast and interesting stories in all of gaming to a bad Thrall Fanfic by Chris Metzen.
SWTOR Referral link: http://www.swtor.com/r/2MpjV9 7 free days and other free stuff.

This is why he could clarify because I did not come away with this meaning.

To me this means if most of the games population already has this, its OK to buy in the store because "normal" players already have it. It all about how you define a normal player in the end.

I would be OK with them selling "Starter" blue sets.

Also remember that a subscriber gets a monthly allotment of game shop currency as part of their subscription, so they would be able to purchase anything that a F2P account can.

For me P2W is bypassing the majority of the end game progression by purchasing items in the cash. Selling max level starter gear is fine IMO, heck they already give away a max level PvP starter set for free.

Pay to Win? Eh, I don't define it as gear in the cash shop, that's for sure. Not right away, anyways. If the stats provided by the gear exceed what's possible in the game for the level range they're intended for.. and you can't get the same or better in the game legitimately.. then I call pay to win. Pay to win is an odd phrase in general. I suppose it's a way of saying, "Paying for an advantage that people cannot acquire inside the game through legitimate means, instead, you can only acquire it from the cash shop - via payment of real money."

2) Using Diablo 3s system basically, allowing people to purchase top notch gear , long as they have the money for it

The problem I have with this is that anyone could legitimately find the gear on their own, without having to pay for it. The items in the RMAH aren't exclusive to people paying for them. It's just a convenience thing; do you want it right now, or do you want to farm for it?

Originally Posted by vindicatorx

my definition of Pay to Win is spending real life currency for an in-game advantage that affects any situation. IE: things that give you an advantage over normal players.

Pretty much sums up my opinion nicely, although I'd go further to say that it's limited to things that give you a competitive advantage, meaning +exp boosts aren't included.

Ideally, I'd like games to follow Team Fortress 2's business model. They do F2P right.

The problem I have with this is that anyone could legitimately find the gear on their own, without having to pay for it. The items in the RMAH aren't exclusive to people paying for them. It's just a convenience thing; do you want it right now, or do you want to farm for it?

So then you would have no problem with BW selling current tier progression gear or War Hero gear for real cash? Cause afterall, those people could legitimately run OPs or PvP and get the gear on their own as well, without having to pay for it...

So then you would have no problem with BW selling current tier progression gear or War Hero gear for real cash? Cause afterall, those people could legitimately run OPs or PvP and get the gear on their own as well, without having to pay for it...

That's a totally different argument.

If you were to buy the OPs or PvP gear in your scenario, the gear was never found/earned/existed. BioWare is "magicking" the gear into existence to give it to you.

In D3 that gear has to be found/created by another player. Blizzard isn't creating it for you specifically for that transaction, another player had to expend the actual effort to find it and it had to already be in existence in the game world.

If you were to buy the OPs or PvP gear in your scenario, the gear was never found/earned/existed. BioWare is "magicking" the gear into existence to give it to you.

In D3 that gear has to be found/created by another player. Blizzard isn't creating it for you specifically for that transaction, another player had to expend the actual effort to find it and it had to already be in existence in the game world.

So? Doesn't change the fact that it's gear the other person COULD attain themselves. The argument I was responding to was "The problem I have with this is that anyone could legitimately find the gear on their own, without having to pay for it." That quote has no caveat, and, with that wording, applies regardless of whether someone else found it or someone magics it into existence, either way it's gear than anyone could legitimately get on their own, without having to pay for it.

if one player buys stuff, and the other doesnt, and the first one has ANY advantage over the other when they fight each other, he paid to win.
its right there in the words themselves, it does not leave much room for interpretation.

and it doesnt matter if its top tier max level gear or low tier max level gear, it doesnt even matter if its low level gear. if you get an advantage for buying stiff, its pay to win.

why would it matter if you buy the best rifle for 5$ or the second best for 3$ if the player who didnt buy anything has a crappy one?

buying low level or low tier high level gear might not the worst kind of pay to win, but it still is pay to win.

if one player buys stuff, and the other doesnt, and the first one has ANY advantage over the other when they fight each other, he paid to win.its right there in the words themselves, it does not leave much room for interpretation.

and it doesnt matter if its top tier max level gear or low tier max level gear, it doesnt even matter if its low level gear. if you get an advantage for buying stiff, its pay to win.

why would it matter if you buy the best rifle for 5$ or the second best for 3$ if the player who didnt buy anything has a crappy one?

buying low level or low tier high level gear might not the worst kind of pay to win, but it still is pay to win.

Interesting that people think its so clear when there's a divergence of opinion in this thread alone.

Guys this is not rocket science, if you paying money then yeah, there should be reward. People spend money to buy fast cars, and nice things. Why is this any different.

You cant have your cake and eat it. if you want perks put ur hand in your pocket ffs.

Perks should reward players, who wish to contribute to the game buy paying money.

Money will stimulte investment in the game - you all want that dont you?

If you dont wanna pay money fine, you gonna have to be happy with what your given.

if your not happy pay.

Whoa there John Riccitiello...I can tell that's you through the staccato of broken sentences. I believe the topic was to 'define what Pay 2 Win means to you'...not, we're all cheap and don't want to spend money. Now that I think about it...maybe you aren't John R, but an operator of a power leveling service.

P2W for me would be being able to buy with real currency any near max or max level gear that is normally gotten through playing the game.

Exp boosts while leveling, heirloom type gear to help you level faster or most things during the leveling process I don't see as P2W. Hard to win at leveling and first to max level is really not a win as long as you can't get that near max or max level gear when you get there.

Whoa there John Riccitiello...I can tell that's you through the staccato of broken sentences. I believe the topic was to 'define what Pay 2 Win means to you'...not, we're all cheap and don't want to spend money. Now that I think about it...maybe you aren't John R, but an operator of a power leveling service.

Hmm...A Mystery!

Pay to win means nothing to me - its a phrase - made up by people who think its somehow unfair that people who subcribe get a little extra. - What do these people want exactly? -

Pay to win means nothing to me - its a phrase - made up by people who think its somehow unfair that people who subcribe get a little extra. - What do these people want exactly? -

Pay to win is a phrase to denote a business model that is inferior for gamers, and possibly inferior for the devs as well.
Often used to convince friends and other people not to bother with a F2P game as usually players in such games are either rich show-offs or idiotstype C players or both, and usually such games create a negative environment and a negative experience for free players.

Pay to win is also the reason why F2P or microtransaction cash shop gets a bad rep. Hopefully, business models such as LoL, PS2, TF2 and GW2 and maybe the upcoming SWTOR F2P can turn this around.

Currently, I have not seen any significant pay to win elements in TOR, other than the leveling speed boost (which is debatable).

Pay to win means nothing to me - its a phrase - made up by people who think its somehow unfair that people who subcribe get a little extra. - What do these people want exactly? -

No, it's made up by people who continue to sub and do not wish to spend any additional money in order to achieve the highest levels of the game. People who Pay to Win are not people who simply subscribe to a game.