I was referring to the old Garrosh, who was an exemplary Warchief, not to this new Nazi-Garrosh, too irate and possessed...

Garrosh has always been a terrible warchief haha.

On all of his offensives he failed in some way shape or form. On two, Stonetalon and the Barrens, he put leaders in charge whom he had to do clean-up for due to either incompetence or zealotry. And pretty sure the Ashenvale offensive didn't do that well either, by the end.

I don't want him to be killed. I'd prefer exiled or imprisoned. Blizzard have even hinted on several occasions that Garrosh may not be killed at the end of the Siege. I disagree with him being a "bad character", I think he's actually a very good "bad guy". He's cold-hearted and iron fisted. It is common speculation that Garrosh is being manipulated by the Sha, or perhaps an Old God (They're essentially the same thing when you think about it). There's also speculation that Garrosh's right hand (I can't remember his name, but people say they think he is Kil'jaeden in disguise, or a dreadlord) has a part to play, and may even act as some kind of "puppeteer", Garrosh being the puppet.

Either way, what I'm saying, is I think there is a hidden complexity to Garrosh's character, and I think Blizzard still want room to build on that in future expansions.

On all of his offensives he failed in some way shape or form. On two, Stonetalon and the Barrens, he put leaders in charge whom he had to do clean-up for due to either incompetence or zealotry. And pretty sure the Ashenvale offensive didn't do that well either, by the end.

His victory at theramore was a military coup

Had pandaria not been discovered he couldve steamrollered ashenvale eventually and taken the whole of kalimdor cause the alliance lost there port to kalimdor and even though northwatch was taken back by the allies it was destroyed and it certainly would not survive another assault while they rebuild

He could become like general or something. I mean, he seems like a guy who gets the job done. And azeroth has enough hippy peace preachers. Its getting awfully peaceful in a bad way. I dont want to work with the alliance, i want them killed and Garrosh was good at that.

Had pandaria not been discovered he couldve steamrollered ashenvale eventually and taken the whole of kalimdor cause the alliance lost there port to kalimdor and even though northwatch was taken back by the allies it was destroyed and it certainly would not survive another assault while they rebuild

But talking about military strategy in this game is pointless

Not really. His plan was foiled by Jaina with the focusing Iris, and the blockade he was depending on to isolate the night elves was broken. The Alliance even retook Northwatch at the end. Neither side seemed to have a clear advantage over the other in 5.0, which is why Garrosh wants pandaria's ancient secrets, to tip the balance and destroy the Alliance.

Had pandaria not been discovered he couldve steamrollered ashenvale eventually and taken the whole of kalimdor cause the alliance lost there port to kalimdor and even though northwatch was taken back by the allies it was destroyed and it certainly would not survive another assault while they rebuild

But talking about military strategy in this game is pointless

That was his first campaign without significant internal failure and even then it fell apart. It didn't go as he planned, as basically every one of his campaigns has prior to Pandaria.

That was his first campaign without significant internal failure and even then it fell apart. It didn't go as he planned, as basically every one of his campaigns has prior to Pandaria.

Northrend: Saurgang had to clean up messes.

Wolfheart: He lost in the end.

Twilight Highlands: Guess they were victorious in the end but he got a lot of his forces decimated by sending away his fighters.

Tides of War: He did manage to strike a huge blow against the Alliance, but in the end his ultimate plan still fell apart.

Pandaria: He's managed to get half the Horde rebelling against him, lost the divine bell, got a neutral nation to pledge its support to the Alliance, and hasn't had a decisive victory against Alliance forces as of yet on Pandaria except for perhaps the Domination Point scenario where you fend off an invasion.

Really, his track record for long term campaigns isn't all that great.

The Shattering seems to play up his victories in Northrend more than Wrath did, though maybe that's just because only Saurfang knew about his behind the scenes work, or maybe blizz just wanted to make him look more competent. He does show some genuine foresight and tactics here, such as leaving a cache of weapons at a fallback base incase ever driven back to it.

He was literally one conversation away from having Orgrimmar reduced to rubble at the bottom of the ocean. If Kalec didn't talk Jaina down she would have obliterated Orgrimmar, civilians and all, using the Focusing Iris. As it stands she wiped out a chunk of the Horde's fleet using the water elementals she'd drudged up with the Iris. Furthermore, he caused the chain of events that led to the Horde losing the Kirin Tor as allies, supplying the Alliance with a massive boost to an already-potent magical arsenal, which came back to bite him on the ass in the Isle of Thunder where Taran Zhu managed to get Jaina and Lor'themar to conserve their forces in hopes of using those forces against Garrosh.

Theramore was a short-term win that ended up biting him on the ass long-term. It galvanized the Alliance, nearly got Orgrimmar wiped off the map, got the Alliance going after the Horde full-force, caused the moderate races to lose what faith they had left in Garrosh, and cost the Horde an allied faction of powerful mages.

Had pandaria not been discovered he couldve steamrollered ashenvale eventually and taken the whole of kalimdor cause the alliance lost there port to kalimdor and even though northwatch was taken back by the allies it was destroyed and it certainly would not survive another assault while they rebuild

Maybe. On the other hand, if we're talking what-ifs, if Kalec didn't succeed at talking Jaina down after she got her hands on the Focusing Iris, Orgrimmar would be in pieces at the ocean floor and the Horde would have been without a centralized military command, which would have let the Alliance break the blockade and take the Horde down while they were scrambling to figure out where the chain of command picks back up.

Anything but redemption in my view, if he is imprisoned or exiled he could concievably become an Oedipus like figure, but 'redemption' too often means restored in the good graces of people, whereas I think Garrosh should remain disgraced.

Anything but redemption in my view, if he is imprisoned or exiled he could concievably become an Oedipus like figure, but 'redemption' too often means restored in the good graces of people, whereas I think Garrosh should remain disgraced.

Do you mean Ulysses? 'Cause Oedipus was the dude who killed the king and married the queen without realizing the king was his pop and the lady he was banging was dear ol' mom. Hence why Oedipus Complex is used to describe when a male harbors a, erm, unconventional level of affection for his mother (the opposite is Electra Complex, for females and fathers).