Post by m0th64 on Sept 25, 2015 18:09:16 GMT

Remember how I said I immediately found like four new 0-deaths with this tech? It's largely because of throwing mid-combo. I've found some really neat stuff with Luna, too. Haven't looked into many other characters but I've found that Dronkey and Humpty Dumpty can both make good use of this. G-Nome doesn't seem to benefit too much, unfortunately, as he's still better off going throw -> aerial in most instances.

So I've been playing about with this even more, and I've discovered something pretty major - JASGs which miss (all but Wolf) permit the start of any combo the character is capable of whilst keeping the opponent in grab.

Post by Rubbermaid on Sept 26, 2015 7:57:37 GMT

that guy who's absolutely pissed off: It turns out that every character can soup any ground move (still unsure about aerial walls), but about half of B attacks and all but one jab attack miss. You're right so far as Wolf being the only character that can land a souped jab, but this actually seems to put him at a slight disadvantage since he then has to continue the combo out of grab.

Ah, so the jab registers but doesn't activate, then the rest of the moves from the combo tree can be input?

On Wolf's JASG, it allows him to combo into AAAA from opponents shield which itself can lead into an AY attack. Still haven't explored his knockdown options though due to lack of humans to play against (took the game to a local Smash gathering last night... everyone hated it. )

Ah, so the jab registers but doesn't activate, then the rest of the moves from the combo tree can be input?

On Wolf's JASG, it allows him to combo into AAAA from opponents shield which itself can lead into an AY attack. Still haven't explored his knockdown options though due to lack of humans to play against (took the game to a local Smash gathering last night... everyone hated it. )

Exactly. For Robin Hood, only the third hit of his AAB connects but it does more damage this way and is more reliable than the entire combo unsouped. The third and fourth hits of his souped ABBB connect, and he can throw mid-combo to get throw -> combo ender as a true setup as well.

Wolf's aerial is the only thing I could find with him to hit out of knockdown but it does a good amount of damage. Presumably his wall attack does too at specific spacings.

I wasn't able to replicate the non-Wolf JASGs in the brief amount of time I could test them. Going to give the OP a big update tonight so could you let me know timings and anything else you've found about them please? Also, just anything else in general about Soup grabs you've noticed. Cheers for the dedication, guys!

Post by m0th64 on Sept 26, 2015 13:25:41 GMT

Some characters (cough cough ) are able use souper jabs to bug out and use multiple attacks at once. (Humpy can use his birds and his special or jab starter at the same time to throw out like a million moving hitboxes)

Dronkey and a few other characters are able to use souper grabs to confirm multiple hits of moves that otherwise only hit once.

Souped anti-airs cannot combo into themselves because of knockdown mechanics. However, some characters may have infinites/chain grabs if they have soup options that don't cause knockdown. These should almost definitely be banned. I've already found a couple of Red Riding Hood infinites because of this, and they're even easier to execute than the ones she already had.

Post by kirby on Sept 28, 2015 21:20:36 GMT

Ok so you guys have taken it so hardcore even I'm lost. What exactly am I doing here? Am I doing X move (as listed in the table) then really quickly inputting...something? An attack? A grab? Jump? I'm pretty stuck.

Post by Rubbermaid on Sept 28, 2015 23:43:20 GMT

Ok so you guys have taken it so hardcore even I'm lost. What exactly am I doing here? Am I doing X move (as listed in the table) then really quickly inputting...something? An attack? A grab? Jump? I'm pretty stuck.

On making the grab input you have a small (but perfectly workable) window of frames where you can input an attack to be performed when the grabs lands. As an example, to do a soup'd anti-air you'd hit Z or X and immediately follow it with A+Y. The timings should be easy for anyone with Smash hands (which I definitely don't have).The reddit thread goes into a bit more detail about how it actually works than OP.

Post by Rubbermaid on Sept 29, 2015 14:29:14 GMT

I'm gonna keep making hit-tables until the ban-hammer comes out - this time, the aerial A and aerial B soup grabs. These in particular I would not take as gospel; these are all performed in an isolated vacuum (the centre of Romeo Drive), and I can imagine that the height of grab and presence of obstacles or walls could potentially cause some attacks to hit. It's up to you to figure out any situational hits with your mains.Also worth noting is that misses here can still be very useful: many of the misses (e.g. Luna, Pinocchio, Puss) take the soup-grabber down to the ground alongside the opponent, allowing good followups, and others may cast the opponent at a slightly different angle or drop a projectile. Anyway, enough with the preamble:

Character

Aerial A SG

Aerial B SG

Shrek

Miss

Miss

Donkey

Hit

Hit

Puss in Boots

Miss

Miss

Gingerbread Man

Miss

Miss

Fiona

Hit

Hit

Fiona Ogre

Miss

Miss

Pinocchio

Miss

Miss

Prince Charming

Hit

Hit

Red Riding Hood

Miss

Hit

Black Knight

Hit

Hit

Huff 'n' Puff Wolf

Miss

Miss

Anthrax

Miss

Miss

Cyclops

Miss

Miss

Robin Hood

Hit

Hit

G-nome

Miss

Miss

Dronkey

Hit

Hit

Quasimodo

Miss

Miss

Luna

Miss

Miss

Hook

Miss

Miss

Humpty Dumpty

Can't eggsecute

Can't eggsecute

I'm fairly impressed with aerial soup grabs; for most characters (exceptions being Robin Hood and Dronkey) they bring aerial throws up to at least a full letter, which is a great improvement. Also while I'm here, I can confirm that the remaining YASGs in the table all connect - Gingy is the only funny one.

Post by m0th64 on Sept 29, 2015 19:41:31 GMT

RRH's souper aerials both connected fine when I tried them. Maybe souper aair only works reliably at certain ranges, most of the time I was either right beside the opponent or the opponent was grounded.

Post by Rubbermaid on Sept 29, 2015 21:41:49 GMT

RRH's souper aerials both connected fine when I tried them. Maybe souper aair only works reliably at certain ranges, most of the time I was either right beside the opponent or the opponent was grounded.

Yeah, it's to do with the height of the grab. When I was doing the testing I made the grab at the peak of the both characters' jumps; when the opponent is closer to the ground the aair apple is able to make contact with the ground before the opponent is outside of the range. It's very context-sensitive, which is why I had to focus purely on if the attack hits the opponent directly.

Also keeping with the theme of "a miss on the table isn't really a miss", not only do Shrek's souper aerials hit when close to the ground, but his souper special can also hit if you throw the opponent very quickly. The more you know.

Post by m0th64 on Oct 18, 2015 23:32:59 GMT

Does anyone know the mechanic behind why sometimes if you go for an attack while the opponent is grabbing you, both players will slide across the stage while the throw happens and then both players get sent into "blue" stun? I imagine it's because the player being grabbed input a dash attack within the frame window of the grab so it's probably similar to souper grabbing, but I've been curious as to the exact mechanic for a while. It would be useful in competitive gameplay since it prevents throw followups.