Competitive Moves (Update) + VGM discussion

Important: Nothing that is decided here will change the VGM list currently on-site for CAP 4. CAP 4 will be using the VGM list given here, as that is currently the most up-to-date list (and more to the point, I compiled it). However, the other lists of VGMs on-site desperately need updating - and since I am doing so, I felt it might be best to see if we can rejig the VGM list to fit with the BW2 metagame - since this list was made at the beginning of BW, and as such is no longer quite as accurate, to my mind.

So, here's what we're going to do. I've merged the "competitive moves" article with the VGM list on-site - this should help avoid confusion, at the very least. Please check the list over to see that I haven't made any errors. After that, we can discuss VGMs that could be added or removed based on our new BW2 experience - I have included two lists under the article for your convenience. Finally, I hope this will be the start of many article revamps for the CAP site - so, I've included a list of other articles that need updating, should you wish to help out. I've already updated the process guide directly through the scms - as soon as a CAP mod caches the changes, you should be able to see the lovely results.

<p>Greetings! Before the existence of Very Good Moves (used as part of the <a href="/cap/process/events/movepool_limits">Movepool Limits</a> stage), a list of competitive moves was drawn up by the community's brightest minds for sake of easily finding the moves that one wanted on one's movepool, without having to trawl through long lists of very uninteresting moves to get them. Furthermore, they went ahead and categorised them, which made it easy as pie to find what you were looking for. Thus, this current list attempts to do for VGMs what they did for all competitive moves - to arrange a list of VGMs by type and function. Remember, however, that some moves may become VGMs, which are not on this list, based on the ability or other features of the Pokemon. For example, Dynamicpunch or Zap Cannon would become a VGM if the Pokemon in question had the ability No Guard.</p>

<p>So, here is the complete list of moves considered to be Very Good Moves on all movepools:</p>

<dl><dt><a name="movepool">Notes on the Relationship between Very Good Moves and Movepools</a></dt>
<dd>Curse is only counted as a Very Good Move for Pokemon that are <em>not</em> of the Ghost-type.</dd>
<dd>The signature moves of Legendary Pokemon are automatically disallowed for all CAPs, unless specified otherwise by the Topic Leader.</dd>
<dd>When two or more equivalent Very Good Moves are present in a movepool, collectively they only count as one Very Good Move.</dd>
<dd>If a Very Good Move is completely outclassed by another Very Good Move in the movepool, the two moves only count together as one VGM.</dd>
<dd>All moves not on this list made competitively viable by an ability, such as Technician or No Guard, are also considered Very Good Moves on a Pokemon with that ability.</dd>
<dd>If a Very Good Move is of absolutely no competitive use to a specific CAP, but has flavour applications, then the Topic Leader has the ability to make it not count as a Very Good Move for that CAP.</dd>
<dd>Please refer to <a href="http://www.smogon.com/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions">this process guide</a> for a full list of equivalent, outclassing, and Legendary signature moves.</dd></dl>

<dl><dt><a name="foot">Footnotes</a></dt>
<dd>* Created move.</dd>
<dd>** Can be treated as either an attacking move or a non-attacking move depending on Topic Leader discretion.</dd>
<dd>*** Knock Off and Rapid Spin both deal damage, but the damage dealt is minimal. An advantage of this is that both moves are unaffected by Taunt.</dd>
<dd>**** Nature Power is treated as Earthquake (but affected by Taunt and Prankster) for the purposes of CAP.</dd>
<dd>† Can be any type but Normal, it only appears Normal type. Its Base Power varies from 30-70.</dd>
<dd>†† Weather Ball changes type and Base Power depending on the weather.</dd>
<dd>††† Changes attack type depending on the held item.</dd></dl>
<dd>‡ Legendary exclusive move, hence illegal unless specified otherwise by Topic Leader.</dd>

That's everything on the articles side. Only other stuff that needs updating on-site is the Gallery (which is kind of untouchable for most of us) and the analyses (which could probably get away with a bit of minor cleaning).

Please add Accupressure to VGM. Accupressure+Roost+Drill Peck+Baton Pass Dodrio can be very annoying, especially after +2 Def or +2 Evasion!

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Acupressure, while certainly an annoyance, is not exactly very good, competitively speaking. The only stat that a Pokemon would really appreciate the boost in, as opposed to using any other boosting move, is, as you say, evasion, but that has only a 1 in 6 chance of occurring. Barely anything can use Acupressure effectively, really. It isn't worth the VGM label.

I think that Howl/Sharpen/Meditate should be removed from the VGM list because they aren't really very good moves at all and have little competitive use, as swords dance is so common and very few pokemon (Arcanine and Stoutland, UU and RU respectively) use them. Even pokemon that do use them often opt for a choice band instead.

These weren't up for debate but I believe that spark, thunder fang, fire fang, ice fang, poison fang should not be VGMs. Quite simply they are too weak to be of any threat or value on a Pokemon where a STAB attack will outdamage each of the above attacks unless they are quad SE. Ice Fang is the only one of the above to have seen any use in the entirety of BW, and that only because Gliscor was used as a Dragon check, and Gliscor lacked any other means to damage Dragons effectively.

As for the lists of moves:
To be added, agree with:
Fiery Dance
Sunny Day
Disable
Solarbeam
Charm/FeatherDance
Tickle

Foul Play is very useful on a Pokemon such as Sableye or Mandibuzz who can abuse an opponents high attack stat for a reliable STAB. Endure is rarely useful, however, the pinch berris have now returned meaning things like Unburden Liechi Hitmonlee are now viable again.

These weren't up for debate but I believe that spark, thunder fang, fire fang, ice fang, poison fang should not be VGMs. Quite simply they are too weak to be of any threat or value on a Pokemon where a STAB attack will outdamage each of the above attacks unless they are quad SE. Ice Fang is the only one of the above to have seen any use in the entirety of BW, and that only because Gliscor was used as a Dragon check, and Gliscor lacked any other means to damage Dragons effectively.

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Poison Fang was a mistake, heh. It was a leftover from the old article, it was never a VGM.

Ice Fang / Thunder Fang / Spark / Fire Fang are pretty much there because there is always a cause to have them - in that, if they hit any important Pokemon 4x super effectively (which ALL of them do), they are worth having on a Pokemon that otherwise would have trouble with them. In any case, they are the absolute arbitrary lower limit of Base Power and only there because of type. Maybe only because of tradition, but since these are still used (see Stoutland, Gliscor, Durant), they are worth keeping as VGMs.

As for the lists of moves:
To be added, agree with:
Fiery Dance
Sunny Day
Disable
Solarbeam
Charm/FeatherDance
Tickle

DHR, then why is Bullet Punch a VGM? It's only used in OU on Scizor because of STAB and Technician. Same circumstances for Breloom with Low Sweep. That just doesn't seem like a valid counteragument. Provide a different reason Low Sweep isn't a VGM and I'll go along.

DHR, then why is Bullet Punch a VGM? It's only used in OU on Scizor because of STAB and Technician. Same circumstances for Breloom with Low Sweep. That just doesn't seem like a valid counteragument. Provide a different reason Low Sweep isn't a VGM and I'll go along.

And now seeing it's not there, yeah Bug Bite should be a VGM too.

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It's also used by Metagross, as well as Machamp in UU, and Medicham in whatever tier it's in.

It is a STAB priority move, and priority is, yes, a big deal. It has a use on Pokemon irrespective of the ability Technician.

Low Sweep and all attacking moves of 60 BP and under are not VGMs without Technician. If a Pokemon has Technician, they become VGMs. It's quite simple. They are basically not viable on anything without the power boost.

I'm not trying to get into a huge debate lol since this is basically pure semantics, but I don't really agree with that.

Metagross accounts for MAYBE 5% of all Bullet Punch usage in OU. It's Scizor all day every day. Standard Machamp according to Smogon's two onsite sets do not run Bullet Punch, and it gets a mixed but generally negative review in Other Options. I'm a Medicham lover. I've run BandCham in OU. Neither of Medicham's premier sets, the choice users, uses Bullet Punch ever, and while the non-choice option does run Bullet Punch, I've never used that set nor seen it used. On Lucario and TechniTop it's a third slash option that's almost never used. Hariyama does use it on Guts sets.

So Basically, Bullet Punch is ACTUALLY used by Scizor, and somewhat Metagross in OU, basically not used in UU ever, and used by Hariyama on Guts sets in RU.

And not even close to all Metagross and Hariyama even run Bullet Punch. They both have many, many sets.

I just don't see why a move used on something as popular as Scizor, who has insane benefits to it's usage like STAB and Technician, and then only used on Metagross, who's ranked about #50 in OU usage and Hariyama, who's ranked about #50 in RU usage, can possibly be considered a VGM.

If it's only a VGM because of its one main abuser, then it's not a VGM is what I believe your argument against Low Sweep is. So uh... defend Bullet Punch. I don't have the stats for you. But I'd be willing to bet my shirt that well over 90% of Bullet Punch usage on all of PS! is from Scizors.

You say, it's a STAB priority move? Well... it's stab on Lucario, yet Lucario basically never runs it. STAB is not an inherent aspect of the move. STAB is reflective of the user.

Moderator

Whether or not something is actually used by many Pokemon has nothing to do with whether or not it is a VGM. VGMs are moves that, in isolation, are very good. Whether or not a move is good on Scizor, Breloom, Jirachi, or whoever is irrelevant when deciding if it is a very good move for the purposes of CAP. As BMB said, priority is a very big deal, regardless of Technician or whatnot. Any Pokemon with decent power will consider using a priority move if it has room on a set. The same cannot be said for moves like Force Palm where they are only very good on specific Pokemon. Remember, for the purposes of CAP, the move needs to be good in isolation, and on a given CAP, if we don't have Technician or the like, they are not very good.

Moderator

No, this is not a part of CAP 4's process. This is about an update for one of the process pages on the CAP website. Actual discussion of CAP 4's movepool will be happening shortly after the name is decided.

Lucario has Extremespeed for priority, without it probably Bullet Punch would see more usage. And on Metagross it's not a bad move but when going tanky or building Agility it becomes a lesser option next to Meteor Mash (despite the accuracy) because what it needs more is coverage in its remaining attacks.

So I'd agree with bmb and jas that Bullet Punch on its own stands out as a very good move. Priority is a big deal. It makes even unSTABed Shadow Sneak on Pokemon with access to it consider it - priority is That important in the current metagame. Scizor is just the model abuser, boasting STAB, Technician, AND a high ATK stat, but even without him around, it'd fit the bill.

IIRC SD Lucario used to use Bullet Punch in DP to get around Gengar, which has seen a general decline in use in BW2, the fact ES overpowers STAB Bullet Punch in isolation (and the new +2 priority) is the reason ES is used over Bullet Punch.

As long as we're getting into this discussion RE: Bullet Punch, can someone explain to me why Iron Tail is a VGM when it is entirely outclassed by Meteor Mash and literally zero Pokemon use it competitively? Not even RU Steelix does, and it has Sheer Force and STAB to back it up.

jas pretty much answered this correctly anyway, I just wanted to reinforce the point. Steel is not a good general purpose offensive STAB, so its moves don't tend to see much use unless the Pokemon is devoid of other powerful options. In a vacuum though, Bullet Punch and Iron Tail are good moves on the grounds of priority in the former and Base Power in the latter's case.

EDIT: Also poor Steel Wing didn't make the cut. You have fallen far since GSC Skamory when you were bred far and wide to give Flying types an SE attack on Rock Pokemon :(

Art Co-Leader

Heat Crash and Heavy Slam sounds too situational to be considered VGM imo. According to the on-site strategies, Emboar trades the former for Flare Blitz, and Aggron only uses the latter in the fourth slot when it's running a full offense.

Heat Crash and Heavy Slam sounds too situational to be considered VGM imo. According to the on-site strategies, Emboar trades the former for Flare Blitz, and Aggron only uses the latter in the fourth slot when it's running a full offense.

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Thing is, the Topic Leader has the power to specify Weight (as well as all the other niggly little bits of flavour); as such, it is quite possible, if we are in need of a semi-reliable 120 BP Fire- or Steel-type attack for whatever reason, to achieve it through Heat Crash / Heavy Slam and a mass of 2000 kg or some similarly exaggerated number. In terms of the build, we can put them on movepools under the assumption that the Topic Leader will make them usable - most Pokemon with Heat Crash or Heavy Slam will by nature of flavour be heavy, so have a pretty high Base Power on average.

In short, yes Flare Blitz / Meteor Mash tend to outclass, but at the same time, they will be usable if put on a CAP's movepool, by their very nature.

Flame Charge shouldn't be a VGM as the +1 Speed boost is quite frankly worthless without a attack/defense boost as well, and the move itself does amazingly poor damage - It is outclassed by many other physical fire moves, it is outclassed by many other boosting moves, and it does not deserve to be a VGM. The only time any pokemon in the B/W 2 metgame uses flame charge is because the user is trying a gimicky strategy. In fact, only one onsite analysis outside of Little Cup has Flame Charge listed as a primary move - Flare Blitz is almost always used instead (Said pokemon, Emboar, has Flare Blitz listed on the very same set).

Moderator

Fiery Dance (it meets the standards of a competitive move, sort of like Charge Beam)
Sunny Day (nowadays a must-have for Sun Teams)
Disable (thanks to Gengar)
SolarBeam (thanks to Sun Teams)
Screech/Metal Sound/Fake Tears (these are from old gen. IV strategies, and I haven't been seeing much of them; although in theory they still succeed as the halfway point between Phazing and boosting)
Metal Burst (balanced, but can be very effective)
Hypnosis/Sing/Grasswhistle (if only because of how powerful Sleep is this Generation)
Psycho Cut (it's the same as Shadow Claw and Night Slash, which are already on the list).

And then remove these, imo:

Aerial Ace
Amnesia
Block/Spider Web/Mean Look
Endure
Gravity
Howl/Sharpen/Meditate
Iron Defence/Barrier/Acid Armor
Signal Beam: This one may be controversial, as it has 75 BP and a Confusion chance and all that; however, for Bug STAB, Signal Beam is dramatically outclassed by Bug Buzz, and for coverage, Signal Beam is dramatically outclassed by Ghost coverage. The only target here is Celebi, so, much like Thunder Fang, this move has only niche use by particular Pokemon.
Thrash: "Thrash should not be used competitively. Though the Base Power of the move is very high and sports perfect accuracy, Normal has a number of resistances and immunities, and does not hit any type super effectively. Locking the user into this move is rarely a good idea. Its distribution is also quite low." - Smogon
Thunder Fang: This Fang only targets Gyarados, really, in terms of competitive use, whereas Fire and Ice can both work off of the two most common quad weaknesses in the game. This should be the only Fang to go.
Work Up: Similar to (although completely outclassed by) Growth, this move has an understandable place on the VGM list. However, unlike Growth, this move is also generally outclassed by Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Dragon Dance, etc. because of the coverage lost for only a mediocre gain. Work Up is really only viable if there is absolutely no other boosting move available, if then, and doesn't even work well with bulky boosting OR speedy sweeping.

CAP Leader

I am currently assembling a database so I can re-run the movepool analytics that I ran in the 4th gen, so we can have an objective measurement of VGM's, as well as get an idea of what limits are "normal" for 5th gen. It's not a straightforward process to assemble the data, since Smogon doesn't have clean movepool info for 5th gen, and the battle stats are in a different format than they were for Shoddy Battle. But the information is there, so I'm working on processing it. I'll post more when/if I get this more complete. But, FYI.