swreader wrote: As to the ax—it’s not when they start out that Granny stresses the importance of Oats having the ax and being willing to use it when necessary.

She had woken up and she hadn't turned into a vampire. Therefore she wasn't going to change.

They were about to set off and Oats didn't have the axe, Granny subtley reminded him, because she knew it'd be used in killing vampires - not her.Why did she mention the axe in such a cryptic way?Why do we spell axe differently?

Have to go back to the book, but wasn't the first thing Granny did when she "woke" in the smith was to tell Oats to always have the ax(e) near his side? This was even before they began their journey.

In case, since Granny was not a vampire, it makes MORE sense that she told Oats to bring the ax(e) as a defense against her. After all, if she thought Oats would be the Fearless Vampire Killer, she would have told him to bring along a stake and hammer. Those things, not axes, kill vampires. But, if along the way Granny had "turned evil" in some way other than becoming a vampire, an ax(e) would have been an effective tool for getting rid of her.

Thus, Granny had Oats bring the ax(e) along for his own protection against her, not the vampires.

poohcarrot wrote:There is one thing that everybody seems to be forgetting.

ON DISCWORLD, WITCHES KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THEY ARE GOING TO DIE!

Therefore Granny KNEW she wasn't going to die on the journey. So she also KNEW that Oats would keep her alive.

The nice about narrative myths is that they can be easily tossed aside, as they were in both in Lords and Ladies (LL) and in Carpe Jugulum (CJ)

[Minor spoiler]

Near the end of LL, Nanny and Magrat see that Granny has arranged her hut to be ready for the next witch in case she doesn't win her fight against the Queen. But she also makes sure Nanny opens her "box" to read the "I ATENT DEAD" message. So, it's clear, even when Granny says at the end that she was always sure she'd win, Nanny knows that this wasn't true.

In CJ, the fact the Death keeps on appearing at various times during Oats' and Granny's journey indicates that even he is not sure whether Granny will make it or not--he's having a "Near Granny" experience. If Death knew that Granny would not die, he never would have appeared at all--unless we want to believe that Granny knows more about the exact day and time she will die than Death does.

Jeff - I like the idea of a 'near Granny' experience for Death on the secondary potential causes of death along the way which is why she really needed Oats, to help keep her going whilst she still weak from blood loss and get her to castle on time to make sure the others took full advantage of her further diluting her blood whilst she drank 'tea' and keep up the pressure to maintain control of the borrowing whislt the rest finished them all off - and of course they brought the phoenix with them too...

Jan Van Quirm wrote:She saw a way to pull defeat out of the inevitability zone and a way to neutralise the Count's advantage because she did know that he would want her cowed and under his influence. Therefore she opted for the not 'million to one' chance but a gamble which might be a victory if she could pull it off. She chose that because it was the only choice she had - she knew they would be defeated if she didn't do it, so no option but to do it, knowing that she could still be defeated. Either way Death showing up for her wasn't an option because she wouldn't die whatever happened. THAT was the certainty. But she would possibly have been a vampire so she didn't know for sure, until her blood began to take effect on them in Escrow and when Agnes realised the meaning of her not being turned by Vlad.

"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw

Jan Van Quirm wrote:...whilst she drank 'tea' and keep up the pressure to maintain control of the borrowing whislt the rest finished them all off - and of course they brought the phoenix with them too...

I realize after re-reading your comment that I think we were saying the same thing.

Do you think Granny actually drank the tea? In her confrontation with the Magpyrs, it's not clear whether ever really drank from the cup she had brought with her. By not drinking the tea, she could maintain control over the vampires by mentally reminding them of their new addiction to this most "unnatural" (to a vampire) substance.

I'm pretty sure she didn't drink anything in the Magpyr castle unless it was the dirty water. I don't think it mattered what she drank really - after all they really did drink her blood back in Lancre. What they did take in with her blood was her spirit or whatever she sends out of her body when she goes a-borrowing.

So this really was her ultimate feat of borrowing because not only did she borrow herself effectively but she also managed to stay conscious instead of having to close down and put the 'I ain't dead' sign up. I think that was because she didn't have to go outside of her own body as such, but it is yet another reason why she needed Oats around because of the effort it took to stay awake along with the effort of moving about. She really couldn't have done it without him (or Agnes) as it had to be someone that could resist the trance state that the Vampires were using to subdue Verence and Magrat etc.

"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw

Haven't read any of the posts yet, saving that for slow work day next week

However, I will say that I've got mixed feelings about this book. Storywise, it's a bit too much like Lords and Ladies for my taste - thing invading Lancre with Granny having to chase them out. On the other hand, it's got some amazing interactions, especially Oats and Granny.

Sorry Pooh, but everything you said in your first post about Granny giving him respect as a reward is simply not supported in the book. Granny had never met Oats before she confronts the vampires at the castle in Lancre—she has no opinion of him because she’s not aware of him. She can’t acknowledge him, as he realizes, because the way she keeps going in this tremendous struggle is (as he thinks)”…she needed someone to beat. If she didn’t have someone to beat, she’d probably beat herself.” Granny’s strength (and her weakness) is that she has to be the best. And that means she cannot acknowledge – to the person who helps her – the need for help.

Jan, I think you make a good point about Granny’s insistence on knowing the difference between good and evil. This is something she’s very clear about, though she’s terribly tempted by the evil in herself. As was true in Witches Abroad, and again here—she knows who she is and what she believes (difficult as that is to accomplish). When she and Oats discuss the nature of sin, and Oats says it’s not a black or white issue, Granny contradicts him.

“There’s no grays, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”

Jeff, essentially we agree—Granny is incapable of acknowledging her need for help. She can maintain her control (as she does when she walks to the stable) and acts as if it cost her nothing—but it does. She first tells him to get the ax (and the stake & hammer) before she goes into her “trance/battle with the Vampire blood” because she’s not sure what she’ll be when she wakes up. And she’s not sure that she will win until she actually defeats the vampires at the other castle. That’s reflected in the fact that for a minute, in front of the castle when she comes to again, she seems to have red eyes. And it explains her comment to him when the Phoenix appears—“To the fire we come at last, Mister Oats. This is where we both find out.” If she hadn't overcome the vampire effect, she'd have died, as would he if he were not a good man.

Granny tells Oats what it would be to believe, really believe in a god when she says that what true faith means is “Sacrificin’ your own life, one day at a time, to the flame, declarin’ the truth of it, workin’ for it, breathin’ the soul of it. That’s religion. Anything else is just . . . is just bein’ nice.”

And Oats doesn’t need her thanks because he has found his own way—has decided to go back to Uberwald, to bring light to dark places with his new religious symbol – the double-headed ax. (As confirmed in Unseen Academicals where Nutt knows that the ax is now named “Forgiveness.”)

Terry’s strength as a writer is that he makes Granny what she is—and she’s not perfect. She’s incapable of acknowledging her need for others or thanking them for their help—whether that help is provided by Nanny, Magrat, or Oats. It’s just me that would have liked to have her acknowledge his contribution to what she has done. But he no longer needs that acknowledgement. He knows who he is now, and where he needs to go.

As far as question 2 is concerned - Granny had to convince the other witches that she was beaten for her plan to work. She even puts up a feeble defence against the Count in an effort to make it look like she's fighting back. When the Count thinks he's won, he starts to gloat and that's his downfall. He may have just killed her, but instead he tries to turn her to a vampire as a sort of symbol of his power.

Those of us who have read the other Witch books were somewhat surprised (I was) the first time I read CJ because of that scene. It was so unlike Granny. The other witches were even shocked to see her like that and therefore they have to try and find a plan of their own.

poohcarrot wrote:To say that Granny didn't repay him, I think is wrong. She repaid him with the only currency she deals in - respect.

At the beginning, Oats was objectionable, wet, naive, and derided for his beliefs. Because of Granny, he grew up as a person and he became respected. All the people went to his service at the end because of what he had done for Granny. Granny herself, doesn't want thanks for all the times she helps people, she only wants respect.

Granny wants people to work things out for themselves. Oats should have been able to work out for himself that Granny appreciated his help.

And also she couldn't go to the service at the end for two reasons;Firstly she was knackered after having nearly died the day before.Secondly as a mark of respect, she didn't want to steal the spotlight from Oats.

PS I did say that Nanny accidently gave Granny the plan about the blood.

I didn’t want to take the time to point out how wrong you are from the book, but Granny doesn’t give him respect herself. She doesn’t do anything but smile at him when nobody else is around. The respect shown by the people of Lancre may have been generated by Granny, or approved by Granny, but it has very little to do with the change in Oats. When Nanny tells him there are a hundred, maybe a hundred and fifty people waiting for his service, Oats thinks:

“Levers, thought Oats, and had a fleeting vision of the pictures in Nanny’s parlor. She controls the levers of lots of people. But someone pulled her lever first.”

That Granny wants something more in return than respect is intertwined with the intensely painful passage beginning with “Choices. It was always choices.” She goes on to think towards the end of this long passage:

“She’d never asked for anything in return. And the trouble with not asking for anything in return was that sometimes you didn’t get it.”

I don’t think there’s any support in the witch novels for your statement that Granny wants people to work things out for themselves—witches perhaps, but not people who are not witches.

As to the last two statements about why she doesn’t attend—they are (as I originally intended to say) pure nonsense. Granny has slept all the way home, snoring to beat the band. There’s no reason to think that she’s “knackered” the next day. And had Granny attended the service, it would indeed have shown respect for Oats—to other people. Instead, she chooses to borrow as an eagle—and later that night as an owl. She thinks of what she wants to do.

Granny cannot allow anyone to “beat” her—and for her that includes admitting that she needed help. Oates doesn’t feel bad about her failure to thank him. He thanks her for what she’s done for him. And he goes off to bring light into the darkness of Uberwald without discussing the matter with her.

There is no contradiction in what I said. Terry makes Granny fallible, which is brilliant writing. I just said that I wished she’d thanked him.

Tonyblack wrote:As far as question 2 is concerned - Granny had to convince the other witches that she was beaten for her plan to work. She even puts up a feeble defence against the Count in an effort to make it look like she's fighting back. When the Count thinks he's won, he starts to gloat and that's his downfall. He may have just killed her, but instead he tries to turn her to a vampire as a sort of symbol of his power. ...was so unlike Granny. The other witches were even shocked to see her like that and therefore they have to try and find a plan of their own.

Wow, I totally did not interpret it that way at all. I think she really WAS all 'weary' and messed up when she came back and not faking it. She had made the long trip back from the 'cave' on her own, fighting against the mental influence of the vampires all the way. It is totally unlike Granny--when in human form, at least--to appear to be anything other than she is, and especially not like her to 'fake' a display of vulnerability as means of trickery. For her to 'fake' weakness is simply not in her character. She may have planned her 'blood attack' in advance, but for her it would have been a last resort, after her other usual mental tricks failed. It was only after she made her first ineffective mental attacks and proved to herself that they would not work that she made the 'choice' to gamble everything on her blood attack, not even knowing for sure that it would work.

Did Vlad ever really "bite" Agnes or not? Although there were marks on her neck, and although Agnes claims to feel Granny's 'blood influence' in her, it's never made clear whether Vlad actually invaded her blood or not. If he was influenced by Granny at the time, then it would be more likely that his fangs never really broke the skin. Thus, it would mean that Agnes's "Weatherwaxed" symptoms would be more sympathetically psychosomatic than anything else.