Malkamaniac wrote:Honestly the reality of the case wasn't that the team went into "lockdown" either. MAF shut the door for the past two seasons for the most part and in large part because he was comfortable with the defense in front of him.

Martin was apart of that defense. I think a lot of people really don't give the guy the credit he deserves and it's to the point of absurdity.

he was fine in 10/11. not 5 mill fine, but still fine none the less. he was also fine for a long stretch this season.

...which makes this "system" stuff bunk.

Exactly why I said this was the typical response that we'd get in a GDT. I admit that I'm irrational with TK, but some people want to put the entire blame of the defense on Paul Martin and Z. Sure they were apart of it, but the entire defense melted down.

Malkamaniac wrote:Honestly the reality of the case wasn't that the team went into "lockdown" either. MAF shut the door for the past two seasons for the most part and in large part because he was comfortable with the defense in front of him.

Martin was apart of that defense. I think a lot of people really don't give the guy the credit he deserves and it's to the point of absurdity.

he was fine in 10/11. not 5 mill fine, but still fine none the less. he was also fine for a long stretch this season.

...which makes this "system" stuff bunk.

I even think the consensus was that it was never 5 million fine, but this is what happens when you want a high target FA when he hits the market. You're going to overpay.

Malkamaniac wrote:Honestly the reality of the case wasn't that the team went into "lockdown" either. MAF shut the door for the past two seasons for the most part and in large part because he was comfortable with the defense in front of him.

Martin was apart of that defense. I think a lot of people really don't give the guy the credit he deserves and it's to the point of absurdity.

he was fine in 10/11. not 5 mill fine, but still fine none the less. he was also fine for a long stretch this season.

...which makes this "system" stuff bunk.

Exactly why I said this was the typical response that we'd get in a GDT. I admit that I'm irrational with TK, but some people want to put the entire blame of the defense on Paul Martin and Z. Sure they were apart of it, but the entire defense melted down.

i don't blame martin at all for how our season ended. there was clearly a larger problem. i do blame him, and not the system, for the first 3 months of this season, however. i don't think that's irrational.

Malkamaniac wrote:Honestly the reality of the case wasn't that the team went into "lockdown" either. MAF shut the door for the past two seasons for the most part and in large part because he was comfortable with the defense in front of him.

Martin was apart of that defense. I think a lot of people really don't give the guy the credit he deserves and it's to the point of absurdity.

he was fine in 10/11. not 5 mill fine, but still fine none the less. he was also fine for a long stretch this season.

...which makes this "system" stuff bunk.

Exactly why I said this was the typical response that we'd get in a GDT. I admit that I'm irrational with TK, but some people want to put the entire blame of the defense on Paul Martin and Z. Sure they were apart of it, but the entire defense melted down.

i don't blame martin at all for how our season ended. there was clearly a larger problem. i do blame him, and not the system, for the first 3 months of this season, however. i don't think that's irrational.

I'm speaking over the fact that people think he's been a nightmare for the past two years and it's all directly his fault. He's played some good hockey, and some bad hockey. There's no justifiable way to say with a straight face that he's been pathetic for two years running.

wondermoose wrote:This conversation is for naught because if you were asked whether you would rather have scuds or Martin two years ago, you would take Martin every time. Truly, what has happened to Martin is strange.

Does anyone think that if Scuderi's contract was up the same time as Gonchar's was and not a year sooner he would not have been kept at $3.5 million?

wondermoose wrote:This conversation is for naught because if you were asked whether you would rather have scuds or Martin two years ago, you would take Martin every time. Truly, what has happened to Martin is strange.

Does anyone think that if Scuderi's contract was up the same time as Gonchar's was and not a year sooner he would not have been kept at $3.5 million?

It's more likely but not a sure thing. That would have been great had Sarge's contract run out when Scud's did and vice-versa. There was no bigger Gonchar fan than myself, but he was such a liability in 2009-10. After returning from injury in the spring of 2009, he brought the powerplay from misearble to adequate, and for the second season in his career, played defense. Then it fell apart almost instantly.

Scuderi's play 3-5 was a work of art in his last year here. It's tough to put a good metric on that other than 5-3 PPG against per minute (which I'm too lazy to retrieve at the moment), but the Pens were fantastic with that both under MT and DB.

I get the sense that he's got the same relative problems here that Ryan Whitney tended to have. After Bylsma came on board in 2009, the tempo at which the Pens forced the issue via the transition game increased noticeably. The demands on the d-men to move the puck out of the zone quickly increased, and no defenseman on that 2008-09 team struggled to adjust more than Whitney. He turned the puck over more. He seemed to struggle making proper reads out of the zone. He looked like a player for whom the game was moving too fast, and he was getting caught thinking too much. I don't think it was entirely coincidental that he was dealt just a few weeks after Bylsma took over.

I saw some of the same from Martin over much of the last year. Poor puck management paired with some mind-numbingly awful reads on passes out of the zone, all of which were made more frustrating because this was a player whose calling cards were puck management and making solid passes out of the zone. That's primarily why Martin was brought here. He looked like a guy who was thinking too much and trying to hurry the play at the same time. Maybe the transition game in this system just moved too quickly for him. Maybe he's more suited running a more controlled, more patient breakout like he ran in New Jersey - something that allows him more time to read the entire ice before making a pass (tangent: this is why I think this notion that he has no trade value is false).

And in fairness, maybe some of his struggles ARE on the coaching as well. Maybe it's also incumbent on the coaches to recognize this, adapt the system a little to help the player (dial back the rush or don't expect him to pinch into the offensive zone so much, perhaps) instead of possibly just continuing to try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I think the frustration with Martin is also compounded by the fact that even when he's on his game, he's not a spectacular player. Every defenseman makes mistakes, but Martin's aren't offset by anything else. He's not much of a threat to score goals unless he's pinching to the high slot. He doesn't offer much on the powerplay. He's not a strong presence in the defensive zone; his positional play sometimes leaves much to be desired, and he's doesn't offer much resistance to opposing puck carriers, not even with a stick check.

When he's on, he's in decent position and he distributes the puck well, and that's about it. I think the motive behind his acquisition was the hope to replace at least the "puck distribution/jumpstart the transition" role of Gonch's game, and that Michalek would pick up some of the defensive slack, but it hasn't materialized quite that way.

It'll be interesting to see what happens moving forward through the summer, especially within the confines of a new CBA.

I get the sense that he's got the same relative problems here that Ryan Whitney tended to have. After Bylsma came on board in 2009, the tempo at which the Pens forced the issue via the transition game increased noticeably. The demands on the d-men to move the puck out of the zone quickly increased, and no defenseman on that 2008-09 team struggled to adjust more than Whitney. He turned the puck over more. He seemed to struggle making proper reads out of the zone. He looked like a player for whom the game was moving too fast, and he was getting caught thinking too much. I don't think it was entirely coincidental that he was dealt just a few weeks after Bylsma took over.

I saw some of the same from Martin over much of the last year. Poor puck management paired with some mind-numbingly awful reads on passes out of the zone, all of which were made more frustrating because this was a player whose calling cards were puck management and making solid passes out of the zone. That's primarily why Martin was brought here. He looked like a guy who was thinking too much and trying to hurry the play at the same time. Maybe the transition game in this system just moved too quickly for him. Maybe he's more suited running a more controlled, more patient breakout like he ran in New Jersey - something that allows him more time to read the entire ice before making a pass (tangent: this is why I think this notion that he has no trade value is false).

And in fairness, maybe some of his struggles ARE on the coaching as well. Maybe it's also incumbent on the coaches to recognize this, adapt the system a little to help the player (dial back the rush or don't expect him to pinch into the offensive zone so much, perhaps) instead of possibly just continuing to try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I think the frustration with Martin is also compounded by the fact that even when he's on his game, he's not a spectacular player. Every defenseman makes mistakes, but Martin's aren't offset by anything else. He's not much of a threat to score goals unless he's pinching to the high slot. He doesn't offer much on the powerplay. He's not a strong presence in the defensive zone; his positional play sometimes leaves much to be desired, and he's doesn't offer much resistance to opposing puck carriers, not even with a stick check.

When he's on, he's in decent position and he distributes the puck well, and that's about it. I think the motive behind his acquisition was the hope to replace at least the "puck distribution/jumpstart the transition" role of Gonch's game, and that Michalek would pick up some of the defensive slack, but it hasn't materialized quite that way.

It'll be interesting to see what happens moving forward through the summer, especially within the confines of a new CBA.

Perfect analysis, Stoosh! Add to your comments what pressure=9Pa wrote: "Scuderi's play 3-5 was a work of art in his last year here" and I couldn't agree more.Edit: I was thinking how different the Flyers series would have been with Scuds in front of the net, but then the current Pens system may have ruined him, too. Best that RS is in LA about to win another Cup.

I get the sense that he's got the same relative problems here that Ryan Whitney tended to have. After Bylsma came on board in 2009, the tempo at which the Pens forced the issue via the transition game increased noticeably. The demands on the d-men to move the puck out of the zone quickly increased, and no defenseman on that 2008-09 team struggled to adjust more than Whitney. He turned the puck over more. He seemed to struggle making proper reads out of the zone. He looked like a player for whom the game was moving too fast, and he was getting caught thinking too much. I don't think it was entirely coincidental that he was dealt just a few weeks after Bylsma took over.

I saw some of the same from Martin over much of the last year. Poor puck management paired with some mind-numbingly awful reads on passes out of the zone, all of which were made more frustrating because this was a player whose calling cards were puck management and making solid passes out of the zone. That's primarily why Martin was brought here. He looked like a guy who was thinking too much and trying to hurry the play at the same time. Maybe the transition game in this system just moved too quickly for him. Maybe he's more suited running a more controlled, more patient breakout like he ran in New Jersey - something that allows him more time to read the entire ice before making a pass (tangent: this is why I think this notion that he has no trade value is false).

And in fairness, maybe some of his struggles ARE on the coaching as well. Maybe it's also incumbent on the coaches to recognize this, adapt the system a little to help the player (dial back the rush or don't expect him to pinch into the offensive zone so much, perhaps) instead of possibly just continuing to try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I think the frustration with Martin is also compounded by the fact that even when he's on his game, he's not a spectacular player. Every defenseman makes mistakes, but Martin's aren't offset by anything else. He's not much of a threat to score goals unless he's pinching to the high slot. He doesn't offer much on the powerplay. He's not a strong presence in the defensive zone; his positional play sometimes leaves much to be desired, and he's doesn't offer much resistance to opposing puck carriers, not even with a stick check.

When he's on, he's in decent position and he distributes the puck well, and that's about it. I think the motive behind his acquisition was the hope to replace at least the "puck distribution/jumpstart the transition" role of Gonch's game, and that Michalek would pick up some of the defensive slack, but it hasn't materialized quite that way.

It'll be interesting to see what happens moving forward through the summer, especially within the confines of a new CBA.

Thats a very good point. And I go back to my thinking that the Pens in this system are actually better off with stay at home d-men and grinding type wingers who do what they do and allow the stars to do what they do. Its no coincidence that all of our problems started and kept getting worse when we starting bringing in these certain types of players and benching guys like Fedetenko and Talbot (who are not great by any means but went out to continue to be at the very least productive players like they were in previous years here).

I think we as fans can be fooled by some of forwards regular season point totals. We have so much talent up front we are going to have guys get some goals and points, but in the end something is wrong with the personnel we think we need combined with how we play.

I would almost guarantee that Martin and Mikalek would go on to be solid productive players somewhere else.

That lineup... It's so bad that it hurts my soul. You have Kennedy miscast as a scoring line winger, a 3rd line with the dynamic duo of letestu and bork, an overrated and aging Mark Eaton, and lady gogo still stinking up our back end.

Unless you are joking, then it is hilarious. Impossible to tell with you

I thought the same thing...if they had carried that lineup into the beginning of a season I would have puked my guts out.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Thats a very good point. And I go back to my thinking that the Pens in this system are actually better off with stay at home d-men and grinding type wingers who do what they do and allow the stars to do what they do. Its no coincidence that all of our problems started and kept getting worse when we starting bringing in these certain types of players and benching guys like Fedetenko and Talbot (who are not great by any means but went out to continue to be at the very least productive players like they were in previous years here).

i don't follow this at all. i think you're saying you'd rather have talbot and fedetenko over james neal and steve sullivan. good luck with that.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Thats a very good point. And I go back to my thinking that the Pens in this system are actually better off with stay at home d-men and grinding type wingers who do what they do and allow the stars to do what they do. Its no coincidence that all of our problems started and kept getting worse when we starting bringing in these certain types of players and benching guys like Fedetenko and Talbot (who are not great by any means but went out to continue to be at the very least productive players like they were in previous years here).

i don't follow this at all. i think you're saying you'd rather have talbot and fedetenko over james neal and steve sullivan. good luck with that.

Not to state the obvious but we won a ring with the first pair and got absolutely embarrassed in the first round with the 2nd pair so maybe I have a lucky horseshoe?

Before you go all message board on me I think you are missing the point. I am not trying to compare each player to each player. I am comparing the entire roster. My point is that HCDB installed an aggressive system even when he first go here but the year we won the cup we had Kunitz/Guerin, Fedetenko/Talbot, Cooke/Kennedy and Adams. All (at the time) were very good at cycling, tough to play against and meshed well with 4 stay at home d-men plus Gonchar and Letang.

Now I am not blaming the coach and GM for Kunitz/Cooke/Adams slowing down or Kennedy sucking. What I am saying (and I thought it was pretty clear) was that we banished Feds and Talbot while they played here (their last years here they were moved/banished to basically no roles) because "they didnt fit our system and were playing horribly" yet they went on to different teams to be productive players. Not all stars but solid players in their roles.

My point is that maybe HCDB and GMRS misfired on what they though they needed even during the games that were played here. And not just on defense. Heck Jagr even said the biggest difference between the Pens and Devils was the strength of their forwards. If we are going to play an up temp game we need guys who can punish and cycle/guys who can play solid defense - not necessarily puck movers because we have enough skill to handle that already. They wanted guys like Martin to feed to our forwards but it doesnt work like that and is easy to take away even in a more open NHL. Let our skill be skill and fill around them with a different type of players to compliment them. The irony is (even if we couldnt keep a guy like Scuderi or Talbot because of the cap) we went the opposite of what they were when their type was exactly what we needed.

And I dont buy the "we built a team for a different NHL" because we got wiped in a wide open series.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Now I am not blaming the coach and GM for Kunitz/Cooke/Adams slowing down or Kennedy sucking. What I am saying (and I thought it was pretty clear) was that we banished Feds and Talbot while they played here (their last years here they were moved/banished to basically no roles) because "they didnt fit our system and were playing horribly" yet they went on to different teams to be productive players. Not all stars but solid players in their roles.

i hate to nitpick, but there's a lot wrong here. first off, kunitz had a career year point-wise. taking stupid penalties doesn't mean he's lost his ability. and adding kennedy into the mix for some reason is just classic BS.

fedatenko was a fat **** his last year here. he probably had to lose 20 pounds to even get looked at by anyone else. and he's rebounded with a dazzling 20 points in 70 games. where would that type of player fit into our lineup?

and talbot...well, there's no convincing some people that talbot was never going to live up to his potential here, but that's the truth. he didn't care for 80% of the season. every season. that's a lack of discipline plain and simple. and lack of discipline is exactly why we lost to philly. a guy who didn't give a crap, and a guy who couldn't stop stuffing his face in the offseason aren't the type of players who would have been the character guys to right the ship when the team was falling apart.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Now I am not blaming the coach and GM for Kunitz/Cooke/Adams slowing down or Kennedy sucking. What I am saying (and I thought it was pretty clear) was that we banished Feds and Talbot while they played here (their last years here they were moved/banished to basically no roles) because "they didnt fit our system and were playing horribly" yet they went on to different teams to be productive players. Not all stars but solid players in their roles.

i hate to nitpick, but there's a lot wrong here. first off, kunitz had a career year point-wise. taking stupid penalties doesn't mean he's lost his ability. and adding kennedy into the mix for some reason is just classic BS.

fedatenko was a fat **** his last year here. he probably had to lose 20 pounds to even get looked at by anyone else. and he's rebounded with a dazzling 20 points in 70 games. where would that type of player fit into our lineup?

and talbot...well, there's no convincing some people that talbot was never going to live up to his potential here, but that's the truth. he didn't care for 80% of the season. every season. that's a lack of discipline plain and simple. and lack of discipline is exactly why we lost to philly. a guy who didn't give a crap, and a guy who couldn't stop stuffing his face in the offseason aren't the type of players who would have been the character guys to right the ship when the team was falling apart.

our roster is fine. our discipline is not.

There is a lot to touch on here (like Kuniitz point total, you know so did Cooke - they were simply not as effective this season in their roles as in the past. And I honestly cant take much you say seriously if you have no idea why I grouped Kennedy in there?). And if Talbot, Fedetenko (I only said he was effective, not an all star, he plays the same role he played here and even kills penalties)and now I guess most of the Pens line up are good enough to win, yet just simply lack discipline but when they leave they become the exact players the were/could have been here...........then we pretty much have the worst coach, GM and owner in sports if it has to do with their discipline. That is crazy.

Wouldnt a more realistic view on things be that our wingers need upgraded/play a different role in some fashion and our d-men dont fit what we need?

A lack of discipline didnt allow cycles all game long and prevent us from keeping them going on offense.

Our even strength defense didn't lose the series, nor did the play of our wings. It was goaltending, losing our cool/taking the bait and having an atrocious penalty kill that was the difference. Aside from ditching Adams who was a big part of 2out of 3 of those problems, I don't think theres anything you can do to the roster to fix the real issues.

shmenguin wrote:Our even strength defense didn't lose the series, nor did the play of our wings. It was goaltending, losing our cool/taking the bait and having an atrocious penalty kill that was the difference. Aside from ditching Adams who was a big part of 2out of 3 of those problems, I don't think theres anything you can do to the roster to fix the real issues.

We can agree to disagree on this. First, I dont think we were retaliating for a majority of our penalties. Maybe the flyers actually earned them. Not sure I consider what the Pens did "taking the bait". Second, if you take out game 4 the Pens would have actually been about 12th in the league in the playoffs in even strength play and I am not even sure the Flyers actually showed up for that game.

I think we are closer to winning the cup than we are further away from it but I dont think our wings are up to the challenge. They were just as responsible for the poor defensive play as the defenders were and provided no grit or cycle which was so important in our cup runs.

I see a huge difference between how guys like Kunitz played - we have become so very perimeter.

shmenguin wrote:Our even strength defense didn't lose the series, nor did the play of our wings. It was goaltending, losing our cool/taking the bait and having an atrocious penalty kill that was the difference. Aside from ditching Adams who was a big part of 2out of 3 of those problems, I don't think theres anything you can do to the roster to fix the real issues.

We can agree to disagree on this. First, I dont think we were retaliating for a majority of our penalties. Maybe the flyers actually earned them. Not sure I consider what the Pens did "taking the bait". Second, if you take out game 4 the Pens would have actually been about 12th in the league in the playoffs in even strength play and I am not even sure the Flyers actually showed up for that game.

I think we are closer to winning the cup than we are further away from it but I dont think our wings are up to the challenge. They were just as responsible for the poor defensive play as the defenders were and provided no grit or cycle which was so important in our cup runs.

I see a huge difference between how guys like Kunitz played - we have become so very perimeter.

The cycle was a huge part of this team's game during the Cup runs. I can't remember the last time I saw the Pens pin the opposition in their own zone and just play keep away along the boards. I love watching a perfectly executed cycle and the Pittsburgh crowd respects and responds to that kind of work ethic...and the players feed off of that energy. I think that Tangradi in a third/fourth line role is the kind of player that can bring that kind of play back to this team. The bottom six needs to get bigger and tougher to play against. You don't need to score 6 or 7 goals to win a playoff game, if you can play defense.