This is George Best related, but has nothing to do with him per se. Just listening to the radio this morning and they were debating whether its good to applaud for the minute whan someone is respected. My feeling is that it is a good thing. My point however is with the Liverpool and Leeds fans (a minority) who jeered and chanted during what was supposed to be a respectful minutes reflection. I have posted on other threads that I considered GB to be a waste of rations, but that is not the point. The point is that the fans of both these clubs, especially Liverpool have been touched by death in the not too distant past. How would they have liked it if people had not shown the correct respect for Hillsborough (and Heysel) The Leeds fans were the first to wring their hand when 2 of their fans were stabbed to death in Istanbul. As I stated, and so have many of you's out there in cyberspace, that we had no time for GB, but how many of you would not be quiet during a minutes silence for him (or anyone for that point) I would have expected more from Liverpool fans, but in all honesty the Leeds fans run true to form.

Liverpools "Grief culture" is a point that probably could do with a different thread all of it's own. And indeed if one exists, as Boris Johnson so eloquately put, then even more reason for the redhanks to show some respect eh?

As a Hammers fan i must say that even i was shocked by the way both the club and fans did there bit for GB. That said i personally didnt think much of the man myself but i was proud to see the way the club i have supported for years did there bit. I have been at west ham games where our fans have mocked Man u about Manchester United Never Intended Coming Home and was a bit unsure how they/we would behave during the respect min for GB....................i now have more faith and will never doubt again.

Lets face it, if George Best had played for Liverpool, the city would have closed down for three days of civic mourning and teddy bears would have sold out.

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Best's death did generate the now inevitable Bliar 'super-sincere' soundbite, but if he'd played for Liverpool only a speech in that hideous cathedral would do.

Private_Pike said:

Ah the good old chirpy scousers! The same ones that ACTUALLY caused Heysel and Hillsborough?
Were you there?

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liverman said:

I think not or you would not come out with such stupid comments.

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These two incidents come up regularly on emergency planning courses. The concensus of opinion is that the Heysel incident started as a result of Liverpool fans charging towards those supporting Juventus. Whilst not there (football is without doubt the most tedious and over-rated sport), I saw the incident live on tv, and subsequently spoke to people who were there (supporting Liverpool); they were in no doubt that the Liverpool fans were at fault.

The Taylor Report into Hillsborough found a number of contributory factors, amongst which were the late arrival of many Liverpool fans, causing problems at the turnstiles. To try to relieve the pressure the police opened another gate, and the surge of people through it caused the crush at the front. Ultimately the disaster was caused by a number of factors. What is unusual is the bizarre culture of grief created by some in Liverpool following the incident, one aspect of which is an absolute denial that any Liverpool fan's actions might have contributed in any way to the incident.

These two incidents come up regularly on emergency planning courses. The concensus of opinion is that the Heysel incident started as a result of Liverpool fans charging towards those supporting Juventus. Whilst not there (football is without doubt the most tedious and over-rated sport), I saw the incident live on tv, and subsequently spoke to people who were there (supporting Liverpool); they were in no doubt that the Liverpool fans were at fault.

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Liverpool fans were at fault on the night - a fact. But they never built the wall that collapsed and they never gave the go ahead to play such a high profile game in a dilapidated stadium that was obviously not suitable. Unfortunate series of events with origins in Italy from earlier European Cup final and bad feeling between fans.

The Taylor Report into Hillsborough found a number of contributory factors, amongst which were the late arrival of many Liverpool fans, causing problems at the turnstiles. To try to relieve the pressure the police opened another gate, and the surge of people through it caused the crush at the front. Ultimately the disaster was caused by a number of factors. What is unusual is the bizarre culture of grief created by some in Liverpool following the incident, one aspect of which is an absolute denial that any Liverpool fan's actions might have contributed in any way to the incident.

So how did the fans that are coming in behind know about problems in front of them? Gates should never have been opened and problems should have been dealt with outside of ground in my opinion.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but there is blame to be apportioned in lots of areas. If the inquiries hadn't turned into such farces and potentially responsible people allowed to retire etc this would all probably have been sorted to the satisfaction (if there is such a thing when relatives etc dying) of all parties.

Sense of injustice comes from getting the run around constantly and coroner etc declaring that all were dead by certain time when obvious that some were still alive. This gives people the feeling that someone is hiding something and instils the need to find out what really happened.

Have a look at the info in the link below to get some of the feelings from those who went through this disaster. There are plenty of questions in here that never appear to have been answered - maybe some of the answers have been covered in emergency planning courses but the info never released?

VB. There are arrseholes in all sports. It's just that football is the number one sport and therefore has a) more people playing it and watching it, and b) more press attention and intrusion. Rugby Union is no different, remember a certain England Captain in the lovely NOTW a few years back with drugs etc? Not just fooball so get off the moral highground.

VB. There a arrseholes in all sports. It's just that football is the number one sport and therefore has a) more people playing it and watching it, and b) more press attention and intrusion. Rugby Union is no different, remember a certain England Captain in the lovely NOTW a few years back with drugs etc? Not just fooball so get off the moral highground.

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Can't agree with you guru - LD was stripped of the captaincy and didn't play again for a while. There was a punch up last Saturday (and look at the intimidation) - you watch and see if the guy involved pulls on his country's shirt for another year. Ever seen the football authorities act that tough?

Additionally - the main difference between the two sports is that the action generally takes place on the pitch, not the auditorium. There is no segregation at rugby matches, good humoured singing takes place and fans applaud when either team plays well. In short, a rugby stadium is a place you would be happy to take your wife and kids to and not expect some of the foul happening found in a football ground.

Murielson - Thanks for the link, but that site is somewhat partial, and does not really present a balanced view. The main effect of Hillsborough was the lessons learnt and subsequently applied elsewhere; my point was that the reaction of 'Liverpool' was bizarre compared to other major incidents.

Guru - So to contrast all the bad behaviour on and off the pitch in football, which occurs regularly, and at the highest level, you produce one case relating to Rugby Union. Formula One is very popular and attracts millions of spectators - can you find many cases of hooliganism amongst them; or at Flat or Steeplechase meetings; or at athletics tournaments; at tennis matches; or other major sports events? I think you'll find the incidence of bad behaviour in football is disproportionately higher.