•Why don't clicker trainers use punishments as well as rewards? A consequence of any behavior can be unpleasant as well as pleasant. So why shouldn’t punishments follow unwanted behaviors, just as rewards follow wanted behaviors?

Research tells us that punishment may decrease the frequency of an unwanted behavior, but usually results in producing another unwanted behavior. The results of punishment as a training method are difficult to predict and to control.

In addition, punishment is not usually identified with an event marker. It almost always comes after the event and is rarely clearly connected with a specific behavior. In the animal’s perception, punishment is a random, meaningless event. It is, therefore, less effective than the combined use of an event marker and positive reinforcement in changing behavior.

Clicker trainers also feel that their relationships with their animals are stronger and more rewarding when they focus on the positive rather than the negative. Like the difference between an animal behaving with intention rather than by habit, the difference in attitude and enthusiasm between an animal that works to earn rewards rather than to avoid punishment is vast.

Also, for a clicker-savvy dog, the absence of the click can tell him that he is "wrong". If you watch a clicker-savvy dog being shaped to do something, you can see him pay attention both to what behavior got a click and what didn't. He'll try more of the former and less of the latter.

katiek0417 wrote:The click does mean that...but many people use food the same way...as well as verbal markers

It tells them when they're doing the right thing...but it really doesn't communicate when they're doing the wrong thing...

The click is merely to say you've done a good thing...but because you start clicker training by pairing it with food, you're also classically conditioning the dog to understand that the click is a good thing...do you get what I'm saying?

I do... and I don't.

When I tried to teach Sepp not to drag me down the street while going for a walk, I used the click/treat when he walked nicely next to me. When he started pulling, I just stopped walking... "he corrected himself" a little bit, w/the flat collar on, simply because I didn't follow him. I made him come and sit next to me, then we'd try again. Granted - it can take a little longer and you need patience (God, do you EVER... ), but the final result happens to be the same.In the beginning I did a lot of standing like a damned lamp post on the sidewalk every few seconds, but he's the first dog I've taught this way... and it worked for us.

We also started when he was way smaller/younger... I don't know if I would want to start out w/70-pounds of unruly dog NOW.

That's part of the problem...Buddy is HUGE! In a flat collar, he'll be a beast!

Even if she's not using full-blown corrections, I think using a pinch will help her to gain more control...especially b/c he doesn't pull her until he sees another dog...then he gets excited...

So, she's been using the clicker to let him know what is right (walking with her)...but with the added distraction of other dogs, he starts pulling really bad...at least as I understand it...

The best way I can describe it is this: what does your dog do the first time he hears the click...he probably looks at you like you grew another head. Right? Well, how do you teach the dog what the click means, you click then treat...that is the fundamental of classical conditioning:

You're pairing a neutral stimulus (click), one that doesn't mean anything, with something that does have meaning (food). The purpose is to allow the organism to respond the same way to the click as it does to the food.

That being said, once you have classically conditioned the click...you can then use it for operant conditioning where the dog wants to perform behavior in order to achieve a specific consequence (the click)...

Hundilein wrote:Also, for a clicker-savvy dog, the absence of the click can tell him that he is "wrong". If you watch a clicker-savvy dog being shaped to do something, you can see him pay attention both to what behavior got a click and what didn't. He'll try more of the former and less of the latter.

Well said.

"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw

katiek0417 wrote:The click does mean that...but many people use food the same way...as well as verbal markers

It tells them when they're doing the right thing...but it really doesn't communicate when they're doing the wrong thing...

The click is merely to say you've done a good thing...but because you start clicker training by pairing it with food, you're also classically conditioning the dog to understand that the click is a good thing...do you get what I'm saying?

I do... and I don't.

When I tried to teach Sepp not to drag me down the street while going for a walk, I used the click/treat when he walked nicely next to me. When he started pulling, I just stopped walking... "he corrected himself" a little bit, w/the flat collar on, simply because I didn't follow him. I made him come and sit next to me, then we'd try again. Granted - it can take a little longer and you need patience (God, do you EVER... ), but the final result happens to be the same.In the beginning I did a lot of standing like a damned lamp post on the sidewalk every few seconds, but he's the first dog I've taught this way... and it worked for us.

We also started when he was way smaller/younger... I don't know if I would want to start out w/70-pounds of unruly dog NOW.

I have tried the stop walking many times and it doesn't do anything, plus buddy won't take treats on a walk, maybe if were stopped somewhere during the walk but never while. I tried the click/treat after i went to erin's class and i have done it since then every walk but he doesn't do well with it. And I don't plan on using the clicker while he has a prong collar on. I think i will keep the clicker for inside the house commands, because he only acts up on walks.

Erin, the amygdala does play a role in emotional processing and learning...but a much bigger role in fear conditioning (you should read the work of Joseph LeDoux). There are distinct nuclei within the amygdala that play a role in appetitive (positive) processing...but they are very distinct and the role is still unknown...as are the exact pathways...

It is also known that disruption to the amygdala (lesions) will interrupt fear conditioning, while appetitive conditioning remains mostly intact...

I was hoping I had the references here to list for you...however, I was using it at work to gather the references I need for the book I'm co-authoring...I must've left it there...

And, Jenn, I meant to ask you, does Buddy have a toy or something he really likes to play with? I know he spits treats out on walks...but you'll need something to reward him...Or, does he really like to play with you?

Oh, right now when buddy walks well he just gets praise after the click. I think if i took something more appealing like cheese then he would take some type of treat, which i will do once he is training on the prong collar, so his reward would be cheese or whatever i decide to give him that he will take and there would be no clicker involved.

I think once Buddy is trained well on the collar and we don't have to use it anymore ( if that ever happens) maybe then i would use the clicker again since he does know that when he hears the click he did something right because he always gets rewarded afterwards. It just doesn't do anything right now thats why i am looking for another option.

And yes he has a harness that he wears when he walks, that helps me keep better control of him but ask Erin how much of an ox he is, and that was months ago. He is easily 80lbs now. I have also tried a choker collar and he just chokes himself and that is just annoying to walk a choking himself dog.

Erin, the amygdala does play a role in emotional processing and learning...but a much bigger role in fear conditioning (you should read the work of Joseph LeDoux). There are distinct nuclei within the amygdala that play a role in appetitive (positive) processing...but they are very distinct and the role is still unknown...as are the exact pathways...

It is also known that disruption to the amygdala (lesions) will interrupt fear conditioning, while appetitive conditioning remains mostly intact...

OMG... talk about some greek for the german girl...

There I just set out and winged it, and everyone is still in one piece.

jnreem wrote:Oh, right now when buddy walks well he just gets praise after the click. I think if i took something more appealing like cheese then he would take some type of treat, which i will do once he is training on the prong collar, so his reward would be cheese or whatever i decide to give him that he will take and there would be no clicker involved.

I think once Buddy is trained well on the collar and we don't have to use it anymore ( if that ever happens) maybe then i would use the clicker again since he does know that when he hears the click he did something right because he always gets rewarded afterwards. It just doesn't do anything right now thats why i am looking for another option.

And yes he has a harness that he wears when he walks, that helps me keep better control of him but ask Erin how much of an ox he is, and that was months ago. He is easily 80lbs now. I have also tried a choker collar and he just chokes himself and that is just annoying to walk a choking himself dog.

And, don't worry, I think if you're consistent with the use of the prong on walks, you'll easily get him to where he doesn't need it! I always tell people: dogs are creatures of habit! If you create the habit of being able to take him for a nice walk without him pulling, then you will be able to take the collar off and have him walk nice...and it's easy to create that habit...the key, is to be able to walk him around on a loose leash at all times with no corrections...that when you know you can do away with the collar...

Of course, there are some other keys, which we'll talk about (i.e., don't put the prong on immediately before going out for a walk, and taking it off right after...it's the easiest way to let Buddy know that when the collar is on he has to behave, and when it's off, he can misbehave...you'll want to put it on some time before going out on a walk, and leaving it on for some time after (I usually do 30 minutes before and after with my dogs).

amazincc wrote:OMG... talk about some greek for the german girl...

There I just set out and winged it, and everyone is still in one piece.

jnreem wrote:Oh, right now when buddy walks well he just gets praise after the click. I think if i took something more appealing like cheese then he would take some type of treat, which i will do once he is training on the prong collar, so his reward would be cheese or whatever i decide to give him that he will take and there would be no clicker involved.

I think once Buddy is trained well on the collar and we don't have to use it anymore ( if that ever happens) maybe then i would use the clicker again since he does know that when he hears the click he did something right because he always gets rewarded afterwards. It just doesn't do anything right now thats why i am looking for another option.

And yes he has a harness that he wears when he walks, that helps me keep better control of him but ask Erin how much of an ox he is, and that was months ago. He is easily 80lbs now. I have also tried a choker collar and he just chokes himself and that is just annoying to walk a choking himself dog.

And, don't worry, I think if you're consistent with the use of the prong on walks, you'll easily get him to where he doesn't need it! I always tell people: dogs are creatures of habit! If you create the habit of being able to take him for a nice walk without him pulling, then you will be able to take the collar off and have him walk nice...and it's easy to create that habit...the key, is to be able to walk him around on a loose leash at all times with no corrections...that when you know you can do away with the collar...

Of course, there are some other keys, which we'll talk about (i.e., don't put the prong on immediately before going out for a walk, and taking it off right after...it's the easiest way to let Buddy know that when the collar is on he has to behave, and when it's off, he can misbehave...you'll want to put it on some time before going out on a walk, and leaving it on for some time after (I usually do 30 minutes before and after with my dogs).

amazincc wrote:OMG... talk about some greek for the german girl...

There I just set out and winged it, and everyone is still in one piece.

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Is Buddy reactive to the other dogs? If so, be mindful that the prong may make that worse unless your correction timing is absolutely PERFECT.

My last post on this thread...

Yes, Buddy is extremely reactive to other dogs...(I've met him a couple of times in class).

Good point Liz. You had that issue with Inara, and the first trainer that you worked with, correct?

It's hard to get it right when you're correcting for bad behavior when there is another stimulus there as well. The dog needs to understand that he's being corrected for pulling on the leash / not obeying a command and not for being snarky with the other dog - who might be snarky back and if you correct at the same time you will be fueling the problem instead of solving it.

Just be very very aware of giving him any corrections with other dogs around until you get really good with your timing. That's a big challenge when I'm working with someone, I have a lot of practice with timing corrections, so I can usually get compliance pretty quickly. When I hand the least back to the owner they can't always duplicate it.

Last Monday I brought Ruby with me to training and told the people that were there that she was only there because I trusted their handling. They worked on "leave it" as they walked past me. Both dogs were being total pains about it. I took each dog in turn and after two rounds both dogs would glance at her, but generally ignore her. When I handed the leashes back, they had a hard time duplicating the results.

You will get the hang of it, I'm sure, but give yourself lots of time and practice before you are going out in any sort of uncontrolled situation.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

I did have that issue with Inara and one of our first trainers - crazy "level 10 prong correction for everything" guy.

What worked for Inara was (sheesh, I still hate saying it! ) a head collar. We won't start the head collar debate here - if you want to debate, look for the big thread. I'm just saying in my personal experience, what worked for Inara was being able to physically turn her head away from the dog, coupled with LOTS of positive reinforcement.

"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"