Settling

settleverb – to wake up one day and realize you are not god’s gift to the opposite sex

It’s funny how this became a dirty word when everyone except the thinnest slice at the top of the human status heap does it. It’s like calling breathing a dirty word and refusing to acknowledge that you do it. Even Jack Nicholson, a player for whom I have much respect and admiration, has to settle — there are probably a few beautiful Hollywood actresses who spurned his advances. I have to settle as well; I always wanted Heidi Klum but she has made herself unavailable to me (so far). Instead of spending years in celibate agony pining for Heidi I enjoyed sex and love with girls who looked like her but had different names.

i will shit test you until the day you die.

Almost universally men are more apt to settle in the short term than women. I understand the evolutionary explanation for this. Women stand to lose a lot more if they get pregnant by an unqualified guy. Men can dumpster dive occasionally without incurring much cost to themselves, and in fact enjoy a significant genetic upside to doing so.

But the aversion to settling is worn by the modern cosmopolitan (read: American) woman like a badge of honor. She proudly proclaims her steadfast determination to stick by her principles and hold out for the perfect alpha male while simultaneously bitching about her lonely spinsterhood. This is the kind of woman who overanalyzes every little nuance of a date and then has a debriefing with her girlfriends afterwards, when she tears the guy apart and her circle jerk of enablers cackle in unison.

I have seen extreme cases where the woman went completely celibate for years out of a stubborn refusal to reevaluate her ridiculously high standards. Virginity in a 19 year old girl is desirable, but de facto virginity in a 28 year old woman is a huge red flag. Any woman who can go years without a good root is capable of turning down sex from her boyfriend for the flimsiest reasons.

i’m not in the mood… you’re wearing that argyle sweater again.

A woman who makes it to adulthood with a pristine pussy and her standards uncompromised should have her vagina donated to a medical museum as an example of what one looks like untouched by any penis. Underneath would be the Latin term for the condition:

Vaginicus Unrealisticus Standardii

I have a theory why settling has become a fate worse than rape in the minds of American women. In hunter gatherer times, when clan size was only 50 people, you’d be lucky to find just one hot girl in her prime. The beauty scarcity meant that there was no jealousy when the hot chick hooked up with the tribal leader. It was unremarkable. The remaining plain janes competed over the undifferentiated swath of clanmen who ranked lower than the tribal leader. This social dynamic helped keep women’s expectations in line with reality. There was little pressure to snag the top dog.

Fast forward to modern society where most young women in their prime are living in giant urban enclaves of millions and hot chicks are a dime a dozen. What do they see? Lots of cute girls hooking up with alpha males. Every day, everywhere. So the average woman, who in times past would’ve been happy with the average man, now gets bombarded with visual evidence of thousands of women dating the same small pool of guys she wants, causing her expectations to balloon out of control. She wants to keep up with the Heathers. She asks herself why she can’t have the same thing. She finds the thought of settling for a lesser man revolting because of the social humiliation it would entail. If her friends are all dating doctors (sometimes the same doctor), why can’t she? Plus, she says, look at my fancy degree and professional career! I want that in a man so what man wouldn’t want that in me?

And so she rides the dating carousel refusing to believe that it is the disconnect between the price she puts on herself and the price her potential buyers are willing to pay that is responsible for her impressive vibrator collection. She has lost all perspective.

This is why pumping and dumping performs a valuable public service. With each pump and dump her oversized ego and expectations shrink, until one day the hollow shell of her washed up self falls resentfully into the arms of a waiting beta. Or she learns to speak cat.

Feminism has impacted and changed deeply society, dating patterns and breeding culture. It may be debatable if for good or bad. However, it clearly has hurt the betamale and benefited the alpha male. Beta males access to women in their most fertile and desirable years has diminished (let’s not kid ourselfes, the nubile/fertile age of women is preciously short), whereas alpha men enjoy de facto poligamy and massive serial poligamy. If the current model favours women or not, must be decided by them. The fact is that men like 80% of women, whereas women like maybe 20% of top men.

Most hunter-gatherer groups had social mechanisms built in to prevent inter-breeding within your said 50 person group. Or, like those little bastards down in the Amazon basin (didn’t you mention the yanomamo tribe before?) who just go on raiding parties for women.

You have a bizarre perspective, one that assumes that women’s preferences for men don’t change over time. We mature, at least most of us do. Maybe at 18 we wanted the captain of the football team, but at 23 we want a banker. By 27 we want someone who treats us with kindness. In fact, that’s all we wanted from the beginning, unless we’re totally shallow bitches with nothing to offer. It’s not that someone put us in our place enough times, it’s that we realized that having that penthouse is really not as important as having a man who loves you and your future children.
Falling into the arms of a “beta” isn’t usually full of resent, it’s done lovingly. It happens at the moment when a woman realizes that even though her man doesn’t make a lot of money and isn’t as handsome or confident, he offers her more than anyone has before.
I know a lot of women of many different ages, educational levels, cultural backgrounds, and levels of attractiveness. I have yet to meet a single woman who fits your description to a tee, or even close.
Either my large circle is significantly different from yours, I will disagree wholeheartedly.

I think women’s standards are way out-of-whack because they judge their own attractiveness by the guys who hit on them or the guys who sleep with them instead of the guys who are wiling to commit to them. And any reasonably attractive girl (a 7 and above) can get the attention and screw around with guys way out of her league. So of course, she’s not going to settle with a guy whose value is closer to her own since she’s constantly being hit on by better guys. I’ve seen a girl who is probably a 6.5 work a dance floor and manage to get four guys worked up by being flirty and behaving sexually. She was a little shameless, but this was an average night for her. Of course, she wasn’t interested in any of them and had just been screwed over by her last boyfriend who was a complete alpha. Also a girl may not be honest with herself about what she and other girls find attractive. She may delude herself into thinking that she can get an alpha because he isn’t as educated as she is, or missing some quality that girls only say that they want from guys. It takes being put through the ringer by a guy before a girl has a good sense where she stands. And by that time, she could be 30 and damaged goods.

And honestly, I’m a pretty green player who scored in the high “Classic Beta” range on the dating market value quiz, and I don’t even usually bother with girls who are older than five years younger than me. I’m in my early thirties. The off-kilter expectation of a lot of the girls I hit on are a lot less bothersome than the baggage and the issues of girl closer in age to me.

A guy, at least one who goes out and spits game figures out where he stands pretty quickly. Are girls he approaches keeping the conversation going, touching him, making eye contact, ignoring her friends for him, etc? Can he get numbers? Can he close the deal? He is able to figure out his sexual market value (which is a lot more variable than a girl’s) fairly quickly.

And to start a new comments war, I’ve found that Jewish girls are very unrealistic about where they stand. That may be because they reject a lot of non-Jewish guys and a lot of Jewish guys will hit on them in hopes of snagging a Jewish girl and making their moms happy. And Jewish guys as a group may have above average SMV while Jewish girls have lower than average SMV. I’ve notice that many of the hardcore commenters on this blog are Jewish, and Jewish girl aversion to settling may be a big reason.

jewish girls are the worst; why wouldn’t you want to stay in the same social class you grew up in? that’s all this is about.

i have another delicious solution for girls who have unrealistic expectations- stop going to bars and attention-whoring. if you’re never at bars, and you’re never putting yourself out for examination, you will never get unrealistic expectation of who you can get. you will only know the guys who call you over and over again and keep asking you on dates. they’re not nearly as hot, rich, or awesome as the guy you could go home with from a bar.

I agree with irina’s first comment; don’t quite see how it meshes with your second, though.

Really, Mr R., I’ve never known women who resemble the caricatures you speak of here, though I don’t doubt they exist somewhere.

RE: Settling: I didn’t want to marry in my early 20s because I was, frankly, too immature, and I knew it. What’s more, so were the men who took an interest in me, and that includes both the alphas and the betas. Even the “betas” who did so were not especially realistic about love and marriage, and not looking for a wife – they wanted to “play the field”, as they put it, for as long as possible; do lots of drugs; and not have to take a permanent job because it would limit their ability to indulge in these other things.

I have a very sharp memory from my univ. days of men, alpha and bet alike, who turned teary-eyed listening to that godawful Cat Stevens son, “Father and Son”, which was all about a young man’s right to enjoy himself as long as possible, and how his father doesn’t get it.

Many Beta males hope that a good job (some day), money (some day), and a little maturity will transform them into Alphas, so they too hold out, looking for imaginary perfection.

Men can dumpster dive occasionally without incurring much cost to themselves, and in fact enjoy a significant genetic upside to doing so.

Except for child support payments to an ugly girl and your child. 😛

She proudly proclaims her steadfast determination to stick by her principles and hold out for the perfect alpha male while simultaneously bitching about her lonely spinsterhood.

I don’t neccessarily think that holding out is such a bad thing. Why if I were male and female want to be regarded with somebody in a lower rank? I would rather be alone than to deal with friends and family complaining about the low status of a girl that I’m associated with in some type of relationship.

Feminism has impacted and changed deeply society, dating patterns and breeding culture. It may be debatable if for good or bad. However, it clearly has hurt the betamale and benefited the alpha male.

I’m not getting laid at all and I have no chance of getting laid ever, yet, feminism is a boon to me since I don’t have to marry some woman who doesn’t love me in order to gain societal approval. Instead of some girl pretending to be interested in me so she can have kids, get married, and not starve or be labeled a crazy spinster, she can have alpha sex with Roissy, get pregnant from a sperm donor without bothering me in any form. So instead of writing checks to support this potential unloving wife, instead, I could be paying myself and enjoying my life, and doing things that make me happy.

Besides, girls in porn put out better on film than their real life counterparts. Too late to switch back to natural.

“Maybe at 18 we wanted the captain of the football team, but at 23 we want a banker. By 27 we want someone who treats us with kindness.”

Fact is, women will always want the captain of the football team. That’s why all those nerd revenge fantasies of making a ton of money and marrying the hot girl are out of whack; even if she does end up marrying said rich nerd, he always runs the risk of having his prize pounded by the ex-jock while his back is turned. The fact of the matter is that most women will almost always be attracted to the good-looking, confident man. Even if the guy never went to college and welds for a living, if he’s got the jawline and the muscles, he’ll never be short on tang. He might not get to MARRY the hyper-educated woman with the mile-high expectations, but he’ll take her home on one of those nights when his counterpart is slaving away at the office trying to earn enough to buy her love. Long story short, money can be a surrogate, but ultimately those primal attractors will always do more damage.

“I was, frankly, too immature, and I knew it. What’s more, so were the men who took an interest in me”

A regrettable result of the society we live in today, where children are coddled until their 20s and never are forced to mature. Children are not meant to be raised by a young husband and wife pair solo, but by a cohesive family with siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, all of whom are connected with a larger community.

I can say with truth that I never wanted the captain of the football team. The football players I knew in high school were not esp. handsome, and were usually a little thick, as well.

The principle you outline may (or may not) be correct, Mike, but the specifics are off.

The boys I remember as being most successful with girls in middle school and high school were the clever talkers – not necessarily intellectually clever (though they could have been) but the boys with the fast talk and cute ways, boys who could back-talk a teacher and make him/her laugh while doing so. And because I was “imprinted” by this type early on, at a time when I was too much of an introvert to appeal to him, I’ve had a weakness for it ever since. Little did I know that most men of this kind would turn out to be narcissists and addictive personalities…

Incidentally, this kind of man is often not really handsome – though if he is, he’s likely to be startlingly so.

Back to the idea of “settling” for a moment: what about JFK Jr.? His wife was a pretty woman, (prettier before she turned herself into a fashion plate) but no one is going to convince me that she was her husband’s equal in sheer physical perfection. I don’t believe for a minute that she was the most beautiful, and certainly not the most “feminine” woman available to him. So perhaps even rich, handsome, have-it-all alphas “settle” for someone they love, who is less than perfect.

Very fair Mike. A woman’s ideal mating strategy for the last million years or so would be secure resources from a beta but cheat with an alpha so they get the genes and the money. Good deal for her and the alpha, the beta gets screwed. The species becomes more dominant, but probably dumber.

That’s the consequence of being honest with myself. Some of us have to be alone so that others can find the right partner.

DA: wow, nice job giving up.

Damn straight. I gave when I realized that I didn’t have a chance, so it made more sense to not spend resources in this area. The money that I save from not dating if invested may give me some pretty good returns. Plus, there’s always long-term care insurance god-forbid anything bad were to happen.

Go to the portfolio section of this site and take a look. Reality is no longer real.

That is an interesting issue. While porn doesn’t provide the touch, smell, and taste, real life women don’t provide the necessary visual stimulation that their porn counterparts provide. The problem is that the visual stimulation is needed to induce the other sensory feelings, and thus, both situations are lacking, so it becomes easier to deal with porn and masturbation than to deal with the (expensive) mess of meeting and dating and failing at both.

i think irina’s earlier point and the stuff a clio is saying really break it down.

1. ms clio is showing how women don’t understand that they are in fact all the same. she is pointing out her particular taste in men as if it is meaningfully different than any other woman’s. she has simply displayed that fact that women like 20% (or some small number) of the men. she may think that her particular taste for some subgroup of men (whom she has fantasized into reality by attributing particular traits to like their addictions and this gem “Incidentally, this kind of man is often not really handsome – though if he is, he’s likely to be startlingly so.”) seperates her but all she’s done is shown that she’s being picky to the point of being arbitrary.

2. irina pointed out how women go from wanting one particular (and elite) kind of man to another, and then just some man that will serve her emotional (and by being loyal her financial and physical) needs.

so in talking about how they are different or denying roissy’s point above, they have completely confirmed it. women do in fact have high standards and picky ideas of what a man should be (or for them at least) and those standards falter when the inevitable happens — too many girls for the captain of the football team, or the handsome back talker (or whatever the fuck that was about) or the top earning banker, so nearly all miss out.

interesting and related is that in almost any general discussion women are fucking incapable of understanding the general picture without simply making it personal and emotional. they have to zero in on their own personal situation or their pals, claiming to be different even when completely the same. i’ve read hope here blab on about her marriage and orgasms in a general discussion of whatever the topic was, and she’s prolly one of the more “cerebral” posters here.

That is an interesting issue. While porn doesn’t provide the touch, smell, and taste, real life women don’t provide the necessary visual stimulation that their porn counterparts provide. The problem is that the visual stimulation is needed to induce the other sensory feelings, and thus, both situations are lacking, so it becomes easier to deal with porn and masturbation than to deal with the (expensive) mess of meeting and dating and failing at both.

I think this is BS.
At least 50% of all 19 year old women will be very pleasurable to fuck. I know that you have been with a real woman, but was she really so disgusting that you didn’t wanted to do the real thing? You know, once you pop, you can’t stop.

“Pumping and dumping” by an alpha doesn’t make a woman more ready to respond to a beta, resentfully or otherwise. It will drive her into seclusion, therapy, or rage, and for those who remain sexually active, into treating men as badly as she’s been treated by them. Meanwhile, the betas are doing the same, under the impression that this is how you become an alpha.

That’s why relations between the sexes are such a toxic brew today. Consider Leonard Cohen’s lines in Hallelujah: “Maybe there’s a God above/But all I ever learned from love/Was how to shoot somebody who outdrew me”.

That’s what the “alpha” approach, as practised by both men and women, has turned sex and love into: a contest to see who can deliver the first “diss”.

Anyway, where’s the man who said he believed in delivering polite rejections when he wasn’t interested, either before or after the Big Bang? Seems the minute I get to thinking you aren’t so evil after all, Sir, you disappoint me.

Of course you’ll overplay this, but I lost my virginity to 30 year old woman.

She wasn’t ugly, and she was attractive for her age, and the experience was rather fun with her, especially since she gave into my tastes and wore lots of makeup, got her nails done, and wore high heels for me.

The problem is that it’s just too hard and too much work to find and attract a woman who is attractive enough for me with nails, high heels, and lots of makeup, so I simply don’t bother, I keep to myself, and I peruse pornographic material instead. Besides, I’m probably doing a lot of people a favour that way…

In the past you’ve correctly observed that men and women are fundamentally different in a number of ways. In this post, however, you seem to take the opposite approach – that because a man who is celibate for his whole life will end up dissatisfied… the same thing must hold true for women. That a woman’s reluctance to “settle” will lead to a bad outcome for them.

However, there is a study that suggest just the opposite…

“Women’s mental health progressively deteriorated with the more break-ups they experienced.

Where men recover from serial break-ups, women fare much worse. In fact it may be much better for a woman’s mental health to stay single than to have loved and lost, suggests the study by Michaela Benzeval at Queen Mary, University of London and colleagues.

This was far from the case in men. “Oddly, the best mental health was observed in men who had undergone two or more partnership reformations, and this was significantly better than all other men,” note the authors.

Single women who never married or moved in with a partner also showed good mental health, in contrast to single men.”

I wasn’t “personalizing”. I was giving an example – and what example could I know better than my own experience?

And the point about football players was a real point – put good-naturedly, unlike your garbage-mouthed response to it. I wasn’t merely being personal – I was pointing out that a number of other women share this trait, based on my observation of what happened in my very large and socially if not ethnically diverse high school. The issue was that an alpha male shouldn’t only be defined as a muscular jock – because many alphas (if by alpha you mean one who attracts many women) are neither of these things.

Anyway, I wasn’t disagreeing with Roissy or other posters here, exactly. I was trying to make distinctions to show that things are not quite as simple as you make them out to be.

You appear to be unable to follow an argument. But then, I always suspected that men were not the logical sex.

“interesting and related is that in almost any general discussion women are fucking incapable of understanding the general picture without simply making it personal and emotional. they have to zero in on their own personal situation or their pals, claiming to be different even when completely the same.”

On the one hand, the fact that a few women pipe up in disagreement based on personal anecdotes does not mean these scenarios would never occur au naturale. On the other hand, human behavior does not adhere to a hard and fast dictum, but exists on a rather long continuum.

What you believe to be the big picture is painted by a biased artist. To only accept what you believe is like an ideologue listening only to left-wing or right-wing pundits, or viewing one specific genre of modern art and declaring it the quintessential art piece. The “general picture” would be far more encompassing after multiple biased opinions are considered together.

Besides, I doubt any woman is truly offended to be called “picky.” The kind of group think that is often done to paint every feminine emotion and action in a negative light does very little to diminish the natural desire for the best. Humans are perfection-loving creatures who have sought after such ideals as Gods since the dawn of written history.

“i’ve read hope here blab on about her marriage and orgasms in a general discussion of whatever the topic was”

Don’t be so irritated by my unmethodical rambling. They merely confirm your preconceptions, right? You could also look away.

I agree with Irina’s remark about when falling for a beta and its being done without resentment; however, I gotta say that these are my favorite kind of posts– the too-close-to-home ugly truths that make everyone speak up.

“Anyway, I wasn’t disagreeing with Roissy or other posters here, exactly.”

yes you fucking were. you agreed with irina’s post, which disagreed with roissy’s blog entry.

then you talked about the men you got moist for but who’s tragic nature (naricists and addicts) will force you to settle.

you also showed a lack of understanding of how generalities work by

“I’ve never known women who resemble the caricatures you speak of here, though I don’t doubt they exist somewhere. ”
and
“I was trying to make distinctions to show that things are not quite as simple as you make them out to be. ”

hope,

i don’t know what you are on about. a logical fallacy is only meaningful if i am making a logically falsifiable statement. i explicitly said i was speaking in general, and it’s funny that you failed to understand that (seeing as how i was saying that women in gerneral can’t handle the general, and you claimed logical fallacy).

heh, now this is more like it. lots of excellent comments and blade-drawing by everyone. i feel the heat rising. singe baby singe!

vk – circle push in, circle diddle, circle nub rub. what a visual.

irina – there are a lot of janitors who would treat you lovingly. would you date them? (ps: don’t ever change)

K – good observations. sleeping with alphas will skew a woman’s self-assessment. it will also emotionally carve her out unless she has the wisdom to know her place and settle for a man more in line with her sexual market value. in fact, i believe the pill and condom have played a major role in women’s entitledness by allowing them to fuck alpha males free of the risk of pregnancy. contraceptives give lower ranked women the chance get extra special loving from alpha males without worrying that he will leave her to raise an accidental kid alone. she can nurture the fantasy that the alpha du jour who bangs her will fall for her charms and stick around while avoiding the risk of pregnancy.
re: jewish girls. i think you are onto something.

hope – that website you linked to is interesting for a reason you probably won’t want to know. the photoshopping proves that beauty is objective. everyone thinks the altered photos look better, and the altering is performed in identical ways with every photo. it’s funny how the artist knows exactly how many millimeters to extend a forehead or lighten the skin and erase blemishes to achieve the most beautiful look.

alias clio:Anyway, where’s the man who said he believed in delivering polite rejections when he wasn’t interested, either before or after the Big Bang?

polite pumping and dumping will still wreak emotional havok with a woman. i mean, i may be evil, but i’m not needlessly cruel.

guy generico:Women’s mental health progressively deteriorated with the more break-ups they experienced.

this does not contradict my point. a woman who refuses to settle will often find herself either mired in a loveless spinster existence or suffering one breakup after another as men out of her league use her and lose her.

“that website you linked to is interesting for a reason you probably won’t want to know.”

What you have written is true, and I did know it — I prefer knowledge to ignorance. Different types of beauty are variations on the same theme. I am a graphic / web designer by trade, and I have done a bit of photo retouching in the past. I stopped the practice some years ago, after discovering the sort of universal deception that takes place.

“polite pumping and dumping will still wreak emotional havok with a woman. i mean, i may be evil, but i’m not needlessly cruel.”

Yet you advocated this very practice in the last few lines of this posting. Could it be that you do have a bit of mean streak? I won’t speculate further, other than to say that sadomasochism has neurobiological underpinnings, too.

I aim to please, Roissy. Besides, men like me choosing self-imposed celibacy means that our dirty, broken genes aren’t fucking up the gene pool, and it makes for less competition for you. The last thing you need is another douchebag learning about game and using it to steal woman that you could have had sex with.

Che Che, you were the one who started out by being pointlessly rude. Not me.

And yes, I do understand how generalizations work. I just don’t happen to agree with a couple of particular gens. that Roissy made here. I disagree that being nasty to women is a good way to get them to choose betas; it’s just a good way of poisoning the dating well. I also disagree with the suggestion that football players are automatic alphas. The whole subject of what makes an alpha is more vexed than some posters here make it out to be.

I do accept in general that women prefer alpha males, and many seem willing to tolerate a good deal of abuse from them. I happened to discover that the kind of alphas I preferred (if you insist on viewing them as alphas – which Roissy would, I think, because all the men I ever dated were very successful with women, whatever their lack of success in other areas of life), were likely to have certain problems.

And they didn’t force me to settle. They forced me out of the mating game altogether. I’d rather not marry someone I’m not attracted to, and I’d rather not sleep around, either, just to get my hands on an alpha. So I’m on my own. For now. Which is another area where I suppose you could say I agree with Roissy.

I also disagree with the suggestion that football players are automatic alphas. The whole subject of what makes an alpha is more vexed than some posters here make it out to be.
Footballplayers, if too obese and hulky, are probably not betas. However, at least in MS, HS and College playing sports increases your status a lot. That’s how I went from a greater beta to a bordrrline alphs. I didn’t change, but access to parties and women improved. In time, I also gained more confidence. Peter’s theory that playing sports improves your status and social life has some grounds.
To DA:
You are pretty smart, so your genes are not broken. You could use your abilty to talk yourself into women’s panties. Your real problem is that you are a coward, if you are a man at all and not a woman in reality.
(You think a lot like a woman).
It really surprises me that once you started having sex, you still are grasping at ypur teenage fantasies of women with perfect bodies. Lots of men get pleasure of fat and also ugly women, anything but without going with sex.
thirty year old women are still attractive, but are bad marriage partners for young men, but quiet good for middle aged men.

alias:I disagree that being nasty to women is a good way to get them to choose betas;

i didn’t say that. i don’t advocate a nasty course of action unless the girl deserves it. what i wrote was that the experience of getting pumped and dumped, no matter how lovingly executed, will gradually embitter a woman until she either gives up or gives in.
and neither do i advocate some sort of “men’s rights” program of getting women to choose betas. i simply describe reality as it is and offer my advice for making it work in your favor.

I also disagree with the suggestion that football players are automatic alphas.

true. a football player could possess countervailing negative attributes that nullify his alphaness.
anyhow, as i have written, what constitutes an alpha male is a bit more complicated than what defines an alpha female.

btw, alias, you write like a woman who was attractive in her prime. am i right?

Didn’t you posit a few posts back that the only defining characteristic of an alpha is the number of women he gets?

no, i wrote what *defines* the alpha male, which is the number and quality of women he can attract. the characteristics that these alpha males possess and which reliably work to attract female attention are a different matter.

it’s like defining the sun as a star but explaining the fusion processes that go on to make the sun what it is.

Irina wrote:
“i have another delicious solution for girls who have unrealistic expectations- stop going to bars and attention-whoring. if you’re never at bars, and you’re never putting yourself out for examination, you will never get unrealistic expectation of who you can get. you will only know the guys who call you over and over again and keep asking you on dates. they’re not nearly as hot, rich, or awesome as the guy you could go home with from a bar.”

I’m not quite sure how sincere you’re being here. The problem is that a girl who has unrealistic expectation is that she won’t know. Instead, she says things like “guys don’t want to commit” or “I always pick creeps.” Girls are quick to point out when a guy has unrealistic expectations and it’s obvious because he isn’t getting any. They don’t recognize that their relationship problems have the same cause since they are getting sex.

And the guys who call girls over and over sound like the stalkers and the dregs. This is probably the flip side of girls having unrealistic expectations. A sensible, confident guy who isn’t super-alpha is going to realize that a unrealistic and cold girl is not worth the bother and next her. An omega male to whom she’s friendly may not realize that and pester her. If the same girl was a little friendlier to guys and had interesting things to talk about and read something besides Us weekly, she might have more quality options and not have to choose between being pumped and dumped by alphas or dating her stalkers.

Many white urban women these days have been raised like men were years ago — to be worker-bees. So when they meet a successful guy, they find themselves competing with him. Often they don’t realize this, so they pick him apart as “arrogant” or “full of himself.” Whereas years ago, women used to bask in men’s limelight; now it just overshadows their own.

These women claim men are “threatened” by them, when the opposite is true.

PS: Was Alias Clio’s assertion than men “forced her out of the mating game” an unwitting admission that her plight in life was pretty much what Roissy was talking about here?

I found your blog after reading the female lawyers post (im in law school). You raise some interesting points and no doubt there is some truth…however, like most things – it may hold to be true for some and not all.

As an over the hill woman (28+)- I can attest to the fact that my mental health skyrockets when I am single and nosedives when I am emotionally engaged with a man. As a matter of fact my happiness, self-sufficiency, and obliviousness to men’s intentions because I am happy and all right with the world sucks in male attention and makes me a target of many, even among male friends who give me the once over wondering what if. I am of average attractiveness – that is to call myself plain and yes I do get hit on, because as you said before men will hit on most women. I have like some other women decided that I am not interested in settling and so have sat out of the dating/bar scene, as in I have never been part of it despite a few relationships developed because of similar work or school conditions. I have specific ideas of what I want and being alone does not bother me. That study on women’s and men’s health in relationships isnt surprising and shouldnt be surprising to many.

I find that men when I was younger were not interested in committing and as they get older and start looking for a mate they also have qualities they are looking for and the alpha AND beta males will not settle until they find it or decide they are tired of looking, so long as they have the ability to pull in new and younger women to meet. It seems odd to say that one group of men shouldnt stop until they find complete satisfaction while telling women even at the alpha level that they should be treated like crap becasue they expect and want the best as any alpha male would. Or that the remaining 80-90% should just give in and settle.

I was in a long term relationship with a “BETA” – who was painfully so even though I didnt see it because I tend to focus on the positive and believe everyone is flawed in some way or another and i am definitely attracted to the diamond in the rough types (flaws are hot), so inherently I will always be attracted to men who are “off”. It wasn’t until the end that I saw how deeply insecure, manipulative, and hateful he was about it which is incredibly UNATTRACTIVE.

That experience of actively trying to improve the self esteem of a “beta” and make him happier and accepting his flaws has only taught me one thing….I will NEVER settle for someone like that again. While I dont believe in the whole: alpha/beta idea – I do believe others do and they internalize it and people who have internalized this by either aspiring for alphadom or becoming bitter at his “betaness” are alternatives than living a single life.

“btw, alias, you write like a woman who was attractive in her prime. am i right?”

Don’t know. I see pictures of myself and some seem very pretty and others are just peculiar-looking. Either of these responses could be determined by the photographer’s skill or lack of it. I’m no judge of my own appearance.

I was a teenage wallflower, though, an ugly duckling. Not because of fat (I was mostly an extremely slim teenager – 5’8″ and about 115 pounds, aside from a brief pudgy stage from 13 to15), but because I wore big thick glasses – and, in my early teenage years, braces. So I didn’t get off to a good start. I was shy, too. And eccentric: I didn’t like heavy metal or smoking pot or drinking, and the late 70s were the Stoner years. If I’d been a boy I would certainly have been a beta.

But things changed, when I was about 19. I ditched the glasses (the braces had come off at 15) and learned how to be sociable. Made a big difference. Men also liked that I could talk to them about non-girly things. Suddenly they started to say “oh you’re so beautiful”. But that doesn’t mean much either, does it? A man I used to date once told me that the words “you’re so beautiful” are just a polite way of saying “take your clothes off”.

I’m black, near sighted, a bit of an elitist prick, and I suspect that my social phobia is inherited from my paternal grandmother. BTW, given that I haven’t finished going to college within the 4 year allotted time, I’m obviously not smart at all. I just sound smart because I’m able to prattle on various blogs on the Internet and refer to wikipedia whenever I need some information.

You could use your abilty to talk yourself into women’s panties.

Haha, funny joke. Given the bored uninterested faces that I’ve created in women, I think it’s best that I keep my mouth shut.

Your real problem is that you are a coward, if you are a man at all and not a woman in reality.
(You think a lot like a woman).

Blame the fact that my index and ring fingers are of the same length, which, is more a female trait. Most men have index fingers that are shorter than their ring fingers. 🙂

It really surprises me that once you started having sex, you still are grasping at ypur teenage fantasies of women with perfect bodies. Lots of men get pleasure of fat and also ugly women, anything but without going with sex.
thirty year old women are still attractive, but are bad marriage partners for young men, but quiet good for middle aged men.

I don’t see how anybody can get pleasure from obese and ugly women. They’re visually unappealing, and that distracts from getting and maintaining and erection which in turn prevents orgasm. Going celibate is just a way of maintaining a certain level of self-respect without having to deal with some obese ugly woman that the other males don’t want. I don’t need and want that embarrassment.

Porn women are hot, but after making a calculation determining that the best that I can do are the unwanted (white) women that other men don’t touch, I determined that staying in porn was the safest choice possible, rather than to go out into the sexual free market only to be rejected into a depression due to my many faults, unappealing traits and handicaps.

thirty year old women are still attractive, but are bad marriage partners for young men, but quiet good for middle aged men.

Her boyfriend at the time was a 6’2, 40-something blue collar beta male. I still consider the entire experience to be a fluke because she’s from Atlantic Canada, she’s a pothead, and in those days, she partook in sex parties and such. She wasn’t normal, and she admitted to me that she never was either.

you have an odd definition of win-win.

They win because my loser ass doesn’t ask them out. I win because they don’t pretend to love me in order to get married and have kids. You win because that’s another woman who is technically standing in line for a classic Roissy pump & dump with an alpha male. Any time with an alpha male is better than time spent with me.

last sentence should say: these types of people are not viable alternatives and living single life is a much happier pursuit. Anyways – I dont hide my spinster evolution and I certainly dont bash men as awful scumsuckers (i think men/women both have issues that make it difficult to relate to each other- i just choose to be left alone and make it very clear – IM NOT INTERESTED.

The cited studies that show how being alone benefits women were conducted not by a health organization (like NIH) but by a UK university, Queen Mary, University of London — universities are known for their feminist biases (esp in the UK).

Beyond that, think about this for a second: What this study implies is that the female half of the population is happiest alone once their hearts have been broken. WTF??? This not only goes against basic sociology (we’re all social creatures) but basic biology.

A first grader could deduct that if women really were happiest alone, the human race would have never gotten out of the starting gate, because most of us, at one point, experience a teen breakup.

Though I suppose it depends on what you think I’m “unwitting” about. That I’m really not attractive enough to deserve a good man and if I knew it I’d just “settle” for a beta? Yup, I’m unwitting about that.

This is sort of offtopic, but anybody have any ideas on how to start building an attractive wardrobe? The big thing keeping me from at least starting is that I have no good-looking clothes and no female friends who could show me what they are.

Your earlier experiences sound similar to mine. In middle school I wore glasses, and I wore braces for much of high school. I was awkward, shy and on top of that, a racial minority and immigrant. I was never accepted into female cliques. I became friendly with a girl who dated the guy I and half the class had a crush on, though it didn’t take long for me to realize that she was only calling me nightly to copy my homework. Ever since, I chose to nurture closer friendships with guys over girls.

I wonder how differently you might have turned out had you grown up in the late 90’s, in the height of the nerd and Internet culture. I hung out with two boys in middle school and watched them play Descent II (which I also played). I relished the attention that older men showered on me as a jailbait 15 year old in chat rooms (and laughing at their accusations that I was actually an FBI agent), and these bunches of old perverts were my mentors. Gannon might be pleased to learn that when I was 17, I had a brief affair with a wealthy 33 year old, though the only benefit I received was several years of free web hosting. Thus I prefer the company of men to women, and have an odd mixture of masculine detachment and feminine empathy.

“Any time with an alpha male is better than time spent with me.”

You’re selling yourself short, as you always do. Adroit conversationalists, even if only in text format, are a rarer and worthier breed than gruff, buff and testosterone-laden sex machines with wooden brains. You put down your near-sightedness and lack of a degree as handicaps when they are merely excuses. Many wear contacts these days, and traditional schooling means very little. My husband dropped out of high school, never graduated community college, and has a worse command of the written English language than you (and me). But there was never any doubt in my mind as to his natural wit and smarts.

Ultimately, what I say won’t matter as much as your own motivation, which seem lacking at the moment. You aren’t beholden to a life of pixellated women, so just think about it. Of all mistakes, people regret inaction the most.

Interesting, Hope. Nice letter, too. It’s hard for me to imagine what it might have been like to grow up in the geek world of the late 90s. Very foreign to me.

Would I have turned out differently? Don’t know. What made me so different from my peers was spending much of my childhood abroad. Not an immigrant, in other words, but an exile, which in a way is similar.

The dating world I knew in my late teens/early 20s was rude and crude, but not nearly as vicious as it seems to be now. On the other hand, more people are looking to get married than when I was young. It sounds strange, but there were never any married couples among my friends until I was in my early 30s. When I look at my co-workers today, the largest chunk of never-married people are the ones my age. I think our age-cohort’s marriage patterns were much affected by the boom/bust economy of the 80s, and the extremely high interest rates. No one wanted to risk buying a house.

Clio said: “The dating world I knew in my late teens/early 20s was rude and crude…”

Not exactly, Clio. You stated you chose guys who had addictive personalities and were narcissistic. You CHOSE men who were rude and crude. You had a Florence Nightingale complex and attempted to “save” losers. Now that you’re burned out because of bad experience, you seem to want to blame all men, when it’s the ones you chose who were the problem.

There were probably dozens of guys who never got past one date w/you because you found them “boring” and preferred the company of the sociopaths-lotharios you refer to as “alphas.” I see this a lot in both nurses and literature lovers who want storybook drama, but don’t realize that in real life, you can’t put the book down when the going gets rough.

Goodness, DoBA, I’m not blaming all men for my experiences. I don’t for a minute think all men are like the worst of the ones I’ve dated. Anyway, some of the men in my life were very nice, too.

And yes, the dating world of the late 70s-early 80s was rude and crude, quite apart from the more unpleasant men I happened to date myself. I base my view of that aspect of it on other stories besides my own.

I’m going to play devil’s advocate and try to empathize with the plight of modern women for a moment. The way I see it, women have two streams of choices [this is going to be very simplified ]:

Option 1. Focus on relationships – whether it be by trying to marry rich, trying to marry the alpha, or some other person.

On this stream, the woman has to capitalize on a very narrow window of opportunity during which she is most beautiful and most fertile (statistically her early 20s). I take it that this is pretty much what women have traditionally always done. Let’s assume she forms a pair bond and has kids. Two possible outcomes here:

a. the relationship works = great result.

b. the relationship fails = the woman has not taken any time to invest in herself and has been out of the workforce by raising the kids. If the relationship fails, she’s probably going to be a single mother and is going to have struggle with re-entering the workforce. Depending on how wealthy the guy was (and how good her divorce lawyer is), she may get a nice chunk of change, but now she’ll have ‘baggage’ of having children, and having had little or no education, she’ll be strongly dependent on ex-husband’s alimony payments (at least for a while).

Option 2. Focus on investing in herself – whether that means going to school or going for the brass ring. If she happens to enter into a relationship without putting any concerted effort into it, again two options arise:

a. the relationship works = great result.

b. the relationship fails = she’s still probably going to be a single mother, but having invested in herself a little, she’s not as dependent on her ex-husband’s alimony payments and will have an easier time of it re-entering the workforce.

Assuming you can’t fully control whether or not a relationship will succeed or fail, and you can really only control which option you take 1 or 2, it seems just prudent for women to take option 2.

But it seems to me that women can’t win here in men’s eyes. If they go the traditional route – they’re seen as gold diggers with inflated senses of self-worth always trying to snag the Alpha. But if they try to invest in themselves, they’re unfeminine ball busters trying to be identical to men (i.e., see previous post on that lawyer chick who crushes testicles for a living).

What about women who just want to have a family with some guy (preferable a handsome and successful guy) and go to school as a plan B to hedge her bets if the relationship fails? Can you really fault them for trying to do what’s best for themselves?

I wonder how differently you might have turned out had you grown up in the late 90’s, in the height of the nerd and Internet culture.

I might be the only person here who grew up during that period here. My elementary school years were horrible, but (Catholic) high school turned out to be rather decent. With the exception of a few guys who said I was gay, I got along with everybody, and I had a few classmates who I could rely on for some fun. I didn’t have any deep friendships, but lots of aquiantances, mostly male with a few females. My quirkiness was funny and good for laughs. At the time, I wasn’t interested in women, and I viewed them as a distraction to doing well in school. It wasn’t until I started attending engineering school where I started having female friends en masse because the immaturity of men was creepy, and from my geeky broken perspective, those guys were scary. The first few were to be honest stealth attempts at being the nice guy who sneaks in to become a boyfriend, but I gave up that crap once I got out of there.

You’re selling yourself short, as you always do.

Trust me, if we met in real life, you’d think I was a boring dolt. As for the glasses, I prefer them because I feel that I’m better looking with them, and since I’ve been wearing them since childhood, they’re a part of my identity. Sadly, since I’m no longer covered by health insurance, I can’t afford a good pair of new ones.

traditional schooling means very little.

When you’re black, without a college degree, you’re viewed as a failure, especially in this part of the country, and that just makes me ineligible for dating most white women. I’d imagine in your case, you overlook your husband’s lack of a high school diploma and poor English skills since he’s probably also Chinese and he somehow manages to make enough money to satisfy you and maintain a middle class lifestyle. Since I’m currently in the bottom income group, around here, that essentially disqualifies me from dating any women until I can make at least $75K to compensate for the other bad factors in dating me.

Ultimately, what I say won’t matter as much as your own motivation, which seem lacking at the moment.

I think you’re right. Even if I was white and made $75K and had a college degree, I wonder if I would be dating or would I spend my days doing what I do now, just simply sitting and responding to other people’s comments on blogs?

You’re selling yourself short, as you always do. Adroit conversationalists, even if only in text format, are a rarer and worthier breed than gruff, buff and testosterone-laden sex machines with wooden brains. You put down your near-sightedness and lack of a degree as handicaps when they are merely excuses. Many wear contacts these days, and traditional schooling means very little. My husband dropped out of high school, never graduated community college, and has a worse command of the written English language than you (and me). But there was never any doubt in my mind as to his natural wit and smarts.
I’m just wondering if Roissy may be mostly discussing how to pick up the sort of traditional bimbo and his prescription may not fit all. Keep in mind there’s a lot of men who would LOVE to get such women, so his site has plenty of value. I honestly don’t know, I’m just theorizing.

[Hope said]
“I am a graphic / web designer by trade, and I have done a bit of photo retouching in the past. I stopped the practice some years ago, after discovering the sort of universal deception that takes place.”
Hope, I’m not sure what you meant by the second sentence, and why it would discourage you from taking retouching assignments. Did you mean deception in the sense of models being presented as more perfect than they appear in everyday life?

Everyone, re David Alexander’s withdrawal from the mating game, I wish (without any realistic hope) y’all would refrain from bashing him (though I must say in the bashers’ defense that DA has to expect those sorts of responses by posting the sorts of comments that he does). To tell him to “get game” to get action is, I think, ridiculous. The guy has assessed his situation realistically (an uncommon achievement) and come to the conclusion that he would be wasting his limited financial resources to lay fives-and-under. He is correct that a short, slender black male without status (an introvert making $17k and living with his parents can’t magically make himself appealing, “game” be damned) cannot date cute girls. Yes, males have more leeway than women (game, accumulating wealth etc) but he’d need private air and water craft to compensate. The cold reality is that there are simply some people (especially males, since “after five beers, there’s no such thing as an ugly girl”) who are too far in the left tail of the bell curve to do the mating game in a way that they enjoy. That DA has correctly diagnosed his situation and is making the best of it (the internet is an absolute godsend for incurable nerds/introverts) makes him worthy of respect in my eyes. That the bashing never seems to tick him off, even more so.

[Irina said]
“i have another delicious solution for girls who have unrealistic expectations- stop going to bars and attention-whoring. if you’re never at bars, and you’re never putting yourself out for examination, you will never get unrealistic expectation of who you can get. you will only know the guys who call you over and over again and keep asking you on dates. they’re not nearly as hot, rich, or awesome as the guy you could go home with from a bar.”
Amen to that. It dovetails with what Roissy said recently about internet personals sites and how they inflate womens’ egos (since any halfway attractive photo will result in a tsunami of male interest). Does anyone else agree with me that (apart from flings) bars are one of the worst places to meet the opposite sex?

Roissy, I don’t always agree with your conclusions, but I’ll remain a regular reader because of your sense of humor alone. Your quips/zingers are hilarious.

The dating world I knew in my late teens/early 20s was rude and crude, but not nearly as vicious as it seems to be now. On the other hand, more people are looking to get married than when I was young. It sounds strange, but there were never any married couples among my friends until I was in my early 30s. When I look at my co-workers today, the largest chunk of never-married people are the ones my age. I think our age-cohort’s marriage patterns were much affected by the boom/bust economy of the 80s, and the extremely high interest rates. No one wanted to risk buying a house.

I’m about the same age as Alias Clio and pretty much agree with her assessment. The dating world of the late 1970’s/early 1980’s, for all its faults, was somehow more civilized than what we have today. For one thing, people weren’t pigeonholed to the same extent they now are. Of course everyone acknowledged that some women were hottter than others, but the 1 – 10 (or, in Roissy terms, Warpig – 10) rating system was rarely if ever used. I recall that when the Bo Derek movie “10” came out in 1979, many people were mystified by the title and some of the ads had to hint at its meaning. Today there’d be no confusion. Similarly, while it was common knowledge that some men were studlier than others, the whole Alpha/Beta/Omega rating system didn’t exist, at least not that I ever heard – come to think of it, I don’t recall hearing about the system until just a few years ago. Nerds were considered more funny than pathetic, and merely having an interest in sci-fi (or a non-interest in the NFL) would not necessarily consign a man to nerd-dom. I guess the theme is that back then people were evaluated as individuals, at least in dating and relationships terms, rather than as categories.

Alias is also totally spot-on when it comes to the lower interest in marriage and children in the late 1970’s/early 1980’s period. I don’t know if statistics bear this out, but it’s definitely my impression that there are more never-married people who were born in 1960 than in 1970. In part this may be due to the economic factors Alias cited, though I believe it’s also due to the fact that a person born in 1960 probably grew up in a larger family than one born in 1970 and, somewhat paradoxically, is less enamored with the whole idea of family life.

“Yes, but the difference is that you grew up in Eastern Europe…”
Acrtually DA, most of my late childhood and teen years were spent in West Germany, a rather advanced place. I even went to US HS for almost a year.

“short, slender black male without status”
Some women do value physical beauty a lot, and confidence alone may not cut it. But I know a Guy who is rather fat, 180 cm tall and weight around 120 kg (around 250kg), late twenties, regular face, owns a hip hop clothing store, and regularly talks his customers (15-22 year old girls) into his bed. He just seduces them through sweet talking. Amazing.
Question for Roissy:
What’s worse for a men, being fat (within reason) and tall or small and thin? Looking how Asian males (see Half Sigma) are treated in the US thin and small seems worse.
Second question for Roissy: it seems like that for men as long as they are tall being moderately overweight doesn’t seem to hurt them so much.

What’s worse for a men, being fat (within reason) and tall or small and thin? Looking how Asian males (see Half Sigma) are treated in the US thin and small seems worse.
Second question for Roissy: it seems like that for men as long as they are tall being moderately overweight doesn’t seem to hurt them so much.

My impression is that being short is a greater drawback for a man in the dating market than is being moderately overweight. It might be because women figure that a man who’s carrying some extra weight will be able to lose it, while a short man cannot make himself taller. Personality factors also might come into play, with short men more likely to have undesirable personalities (e.g. the “Napoleonic Complex”). And then there are long-buried evolutionary reasons, with women thinking that a short man would not be a good hunter and protector – of course these reasons are largely meaningless today, but according to some theories the influence of evolutionary factors long outlive their practical usefulness. Or it could very well be a combination of factors.

That the bashing never seems to tick him off, even more so.
I wonder if he enjoys it somehow. Why else hang out on Half Sigma, for crying out loud? Half the people there want to prove black people are inferior so they can abolish welfare and let them all starve. I mean, I enjoy arguing with all the loonytarians, but why him…?

“Hope, I’m not sure what you meant by the second sentence, and why it would discourage you from taking retouching assignments. Did you mean deception in the sense of models being presented as more perfect than they appear in everyday life?”

I should have clarified. I used to retouch my own photographs, because I was rather insecure about my appearances. I no longer do that with my photos, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is I prefer honesty to deception.

“the extremely high interest rates. No one wanted to risk buying a house.”

Some familiar patterns are coming up again these days. Housing prices were at their all-time high before the housing bubble and subprime interest rates started spinning things out of control. The dollar is falling in value. Rocky roads possible ahead.

“When you’re black, without a college degree, you’re viewed as a failure, especially in this part of the country, and that just makes me ineligible for dating most white women. I’d imagine in your case, you overlook your husband’s lack of a high school diploma and poor English skills since he’s probably also Chinese and he somehow manages to make enough money to satisfy you and maintain a middle class lifestyle.”

My husband is white (I’ve never actually dated Asians; daddy issues perhaps), and when I met him he was in the lowest income bracket as well. He was “manly” though, since he had a tough life, knew how to really fight and had been in the marines. I stuck with him through some really harsh financial times, living in rat-infested studio ghetto apartments.

So, while it’s true I’m living a middle class lifestyle now, that wasn’t always the case. If you find an impressionable girl (like I was… heh), you could probably get her to paint her nails and wear makeup the way you want (I would have never worn nail polish had it not been for my husband’s influence). I’m not exactly advocating predation-style dalliance, but there’s no reason to deny basic human urges to bond while young.

“What’s worse for a men, being fat (within reason) and tall or small and thin?”

Definitely small and thin. Being tall and a bit chubby is like the stereotypical former athlete’s build that many women do not mind. Others have already hit upon the reasons why this is the case, so I won’t elaborate further.

“I wonder if he enjoys it somehow. Why else hang out on Half Sigma, for crying out loud? Half the people there want to prove black people are inferior so they can abolish welfare and let them all starve.”

Acrtually DA, most of my late childhood and teen years were spent in West Germany, a rather advanced place. I even went to US HS for almost a year.

I’ll give you some credit, but that’s not the same as spending your entire childhood here in the US.

I wonder if he enjoys it somehow.Why else hang out on Half Sigma, for crying out loud? Half the people there want to prove black people are inferior so they can abolish welfare and let them all starve. I mean, I enjoy arguing with all the loonytarians, but why him…?

I liked Half Sigma back when it was a anti-law school, rich people rig the system, woman shortage blog. Now that it’s slowly turning into GNXP + Steve Sailor, I think my time there may be cut short since it’s emotionally tiring trying to defend black people and maintain my dignity and pride. I may just stick around here for sex talk and refocus on the softer blogs like Bobvis. I might be able to refocus the time that I spent at HS on other things, like the rest of my life. I think I’ve lost count of how much stuff I missed because I was on HS commenting away…

The high that I once had from posting has slowly dissipated, and now commenting there feels like a chore, hence why I’ve been relatively quiet until today.

My husband is white (I’ve never actually dated Asians; daddy issues perhaps), and when I met him he was in the lowest income bracket as well. He was “manly” though, since he had a tough life, knew how to really fight and had been in the marines. I stuck with him through some really harsh financial times, living in rat-infested studio ghetto apartments.

Yeah, you must be foreign. No native born girl would ever marry “that” guy due to his low income. You must be very patient (or really nice, sweet, and caring) to put up with such foibles. Did you family and friends easily accept him as well, or did it take convincing on your part? At least your husband has the Marine career to back him up since it sets him apart from the other losers. In contrast, I don’t have anything like that, and I’m apart of a racial group known for being pathetic criminals, idiots, rapists and lazy, unemployable workers.

If you find an impressionable girl (like I was… heh), you could probably get her to paint her nails and wear makeup the way you want (I would have never worn nail polish had it not been for my husband’s influence). I’m not exactly advocating predation-style dalliance, but there’s no reason to deny basic human urges to bond while young.

A few female friends have suggested that, but most women would probably never do that for me since I’m not really worth the effort and pain to get acrylic nails or wear high heels. Plus, I’d feel really guilty for doing that to my s/o, as if I was forcing her. It just makes me feel like a pathetic loser and creep. You’re supposed to love and find her attractive for her normal state, not when she’s trying to please you.

I can really relate to Peter’s comments, especially about the dating scene in the late 70s and 80s. I didn’t have my first real relationship until my late twenties back then, but even at that time I was still never taken seriously. One woman I met at a political thing (who today is still, mercifully for the remainder of the male universe, never married), remarked “YOU have a girlfriend???!”

I had hoped that the experience would help me bounce back, but little did I know it would be the beginning of what turned out to be a 16-year drought. Peter, you’ve got all but comment #1 right: The reality is that of the pool of women available at age 22 those who are willing to make compromises and “settle” do get married early and produce the next generation. The remainder self-select for NOT marrying, and thus make up a larger share of the ones left. I found this out much to my own sorrow. I also was unemployed for an extended period during the 80s, part of which I attribute to the job competition from women who in another time would have been potential mates. And believe me, I was LOOKING for a beta-type chick–as I’ve said before here, someone like Penelope Garcia on Criminal Minds.

The bottom line is that a woman who has other options will be less likely to settle. The more options more women have, the fastest will be our demographic decline. Therefore, we ought to be thinking about whether or not women SHOULD have those options before we are overrun by societies where they don’t.

I liked Half Sigma back when it was a anti-law school, rich people rig the system, woman shortage blog. Now that it’s slowly turning into GNXP + Steve Sailor, I think my time there may be cut short since it’s emotionally tiring trying to defend black people and maintain my dignity and pride. I may just stick around here for sex talk and refocus on the softer blogs like Bobvis.

It’s possible that Half Sigma’s focus began to change when Mr. Sigma went back to law school to get that advanced degree. Whatever the cause, it definitely has changed.

Speaking of forums that change, I’m really fed up with the way Subchat’s OT board has become infested with Islam-will-Conquer-the-World-and-haul-us-off-to-the-ovens neocon paranoid panty piddling.

Bobvis has some interesting discussions, but while I read it regularly I’ve been banned from making comments.

I have two choices; loneliness or a bad relationship. I choose occasional lonelinness, have friends, dates, demanding job, expensive hobbies – life if full. I’ve done the bad relationship thing and believe there’s nothing worse than feeling as though you’ll suffocate if you cannot escape.

Healthy romantic relationships wherein both people are better for being together are scarce. While we might think we see good relationships, scratching the surface produces things you’d rather not know – if my experience is any indication.

What’s wrong with being single and happy? We don’t all need to be in a relationship settling (expending energy on tolerating rather than something more fun, fulfilling), and in fact, more and more people are opting to be alone.

John Nash already came up with an idea for representing a solution to said problem with the Nash equilibrium

Original Post:

This behavior by women has destroyed what little morality I had left as a human being. I reinvented myself and taught myself social skills going from a complete nerd.

My newfound success with women has only further excerbated my bitterness and hatred. It has gifted me with a twisted misanthropy that makes beer taste like sweet nectar, when I’m at a bar. I hate because they like the new me, assigning zero worth to the old me. I hate because now all that I used to enjoy makes me feel disgusting and uncomfortable. I hate because I now have a permanent mask to wear. I hate because this is one of the few rational choices I had. I hate myself, because I chose it.

Even after that there is no catharsis. No matter what I do I will never achieve peace. There is one thing that drives me and it is what has always driven me. Jealousy and vengeance. Crime and Punishment. The reason I worked so hard in school to learn things, the reason I worked so hard in the gym, and the reason I have trained myself in as wide variety of skills as possible. Fencing, tango, salsa, swing, samba, rumba, finances, business, martial arts, crossfit, physics, psychology, and so on.

I have decent game, but not at the level necessary to achieve my goals yet. I need to acquire Mystery and Style level skills. Only then, will I be ready for sweet revenge. One by one I will mind fuck as many girls as possible leaving them emotionally wrecked. I will feel no mercy and the more psychologically scarred I leave them, the more temporary pleasure I will receive. It is that desire pumping through my veins that pushes me through my 20 hour days.

I have to chime in and say that I think that self-hating David Alexander and all the short-guy haters need a reality check.

I’m shorter than DA, yet my ex g/f’s include one of Playboy’s Women of the Ivy League (1995), an ex-beauty queen type (several inches taller), and a gorgeous, blonde, huge-breasted high school cheerleader who left for college…after which I secretly dated her (long divorced) mother.

During all this time (ages 18-26), I had no money. And few prospects because I was entering/starting out in a low-paying field. And yet…at one point I was dating three women at once (none of the above). A few years later, I went from: Busty Jewish Chick to 6-Foot Cuban Babe to Neurotic Poet to Heiress, with no time to even figure I was apparently “shut out” of the dating market.

And these are just a FEW highlights. Of course being shorter is a drawback. But it never seemed so big a deal. There is a difference between what people say they want and what they want when they meet someone they like. I wonder if I had grown up reading this stuff on the Internet if I would have become self-conscious and not dated at all.

“when I’m at a bar. I hate because they like the new me, assigning zero worth to the old me.”

The girls who would find worth in the older, nerdier you are likely not hanging out in bars. But you probably know that and chose your path accordingly despite this knowledge.

“I will feel no mercy and the more psychologically scarred I leave them, the more temporary pleasure I will receive.”

What will you do when you find a girl who gets off on psychological pain? Silly question, I know, but…

“I hate myself, because I chose it.”

Too much hate is not conducive to contentment. It’s not like these women killed your dog or parents. I urge you to retry with less malice in your soul. You already self-examine enough to know what you’re doing is not fruitful.

“Plus, I’d feel really guilty for doing that to my s/o, as if I was forcing her. It just makes me feel like a pathetic loser and creep. You’re supposed to love and find her attractive for her normal state, not when she’s trying to please you.”

Guilt is such a silly emotion. My husband was wracked with it when we first started talking because I was “underage” and “too young.” In the end, it was more harmful than just going with genuine emotion. Women are capable of love, too; I wonder if men sometimes forget this. Also, there’s nothing inherently wrong with changing aspects of oneself to give pleasure to a loved one.

Though, reading through your history again, I suspect you are still hung up over this woman, and her imprinting has left you unable to be really interested in pursuing other prospects. That’s an unfortunate consequence of love sometimes. Give it time. At your age, it’s certainly on your side.

I tried to help and be positive, I really did. Would it make things better for you to tell you that I also suffered from a chronic illness and had a hard time socializing? I found, though, that women often enjoyed my eccentricities. That’s all I got, dude. Good luck!

@ #73-
men who negatively discriminate against others out of a sense of defensiveness, send out a clear signal to not get involved with them. Because the backlash is as cutting as it is against those who don’t fulfill an ideal standard, by these men, I know that in the interests of selfpreservation not to be with a man who is smaller, weighs less or is prettier than me.

Yes, it is possible to choose not to have a relationship and be healthier alone.

Man, if the above is any indication, maybe the problem is that not enough people realize that trying to force a square peg into a round hole is unproductive and frustrating.

If by ‘do any better’ you mean to say that I’d want nothing less than a John Kennedy, well, I also disagree with that.

I’d take trust and a connection. That alone would do it. Short, tall, it has never mattered. Ok, cleanliness is important. In fact my last relationship was with a guy from a sketchy family, no college, earned less, didn’t like his hair, and he was short – but I loved him tremendously until his smothering control changed the direction of the relationship and then I discovered he was on the fence about hooking up with his ex-wife. I was beyond crushed.

***Proven: settling does not a good relationship make.***

Women have feelings, contrary to your tract and I hope this bitterness is from a recent break up and that you will heal. It’s happened to all of us – don’t make it a way of life.

If anything it would be a counter indication, seeing as the original root cause is the problem would be lack of relationships. I would never have embarked on the journey that has made me who I am today, if it was not for women. I was never interested in many women, but I have never had social issues and approaching and getting a number has never been a problem either. It’s keeping the worthwhile ones that is difficult and once I learned more about Game, that became simple. Unfortunately, it also cost me any respect I had for women. I was a feminist until, I actually got to know women.

This is a conscious and deliberate choice to cause as much psychological harm as I can manage, for the pleasure of revenge. I am a mysogynist. Women disgust me. I get pleasure from their suffering.

My problem is not the availability of women, but the fact that I have not met women that do not disgust me. Their hypocritical and dishonest nature becomes only more apparent the more women I meet. Perhaps it is confirmation or sampling bias, but I have not met an honest woman. Even seeing the females post on these blogs makes me laugh, because in the face of evidence they struggle with reconciling their internalized lies and fairy tales with reality.

hope:

I wouldn’t touch those girls with a 10 ft pole. Girls that appreciate nerds usually do so, because they have some flaw the prevents them from pursuing higher value guys. It’s usually a big flaw… like being totally insane or horrendously ugly.

Interesting question. It would all depend on how she reacts to pleasure.

It is quite fruitful from a getting laid perspective. I have hurt quite a few girls as it, but not really to the extent I would have liked. I want them to cause them to either become lesbians or instantly turn into cat ladies. I detest women. I’d like to put some kind of qualifier there, but so far I have not yet met a woman who I haven’t lost all respect for. I was warned that might be a side-effect of sarging, but alas they were all too human.

Whatever has happened to spring a person into your current state is not as bad as this reaction to the experience. You realize that you sound like a violent criminal – or Roissy on bad whiskey – and I don’t know which would be more dangerous.

I love men. I love them more now than in at any other point even through the horror stories from sisters and friends. Men are great – and I can still believe this becasue I know their limitations and their strengths overall – how they differ from women.

I’m not sure how you can condemn an entire gender based on only your experiences and since I know many women who are honorable people I’m wondering if you are bringing out the insecure part of any person and can overlook these faults in male counterparts but not women.

Know this: the woman who helped propel you into searching for the worst in every woman you meet has most assuredly arrived at the place of lies and deception from perpetrations likely from your very gender. The women you intentionally harm, barring being mature and evolved, will morph into you and go on to hurt other men – so you’re out there creating more destruction, not being happy to destroy yourself and call it a day.

Guilt is such a silly emotion. My husband was wracked with it when we first started talking because I was “underage” and “too young.” In the end, it was more harmful than just going with genuine emotion. Women are capable of love, too; I wonder if men sometimes forget this. Also, there’s nothing inherently wrong with changing aspects of oneself to give pleasure to a loved one.

I know that women are capable of love, but it seems so pathetic to do that. Making my girlfriend change to suit me seems like the refuse of abusive and controlling men. I don’t want her to change to make me happy. I want to love her for her normal state, not because she’s willing to give into my perversions to make her happy. It’s dehumanizing and turns her into a living toy. Most women don’t do that to their boyfriends, so why should I force her to do that as well?

Though, reading through your history again, I suspect you are still hung up over this woman, and her imprinting has left you unable to be really interested in pursuing other prospects. That’s an unfortunate consequence of love sometimes. Give it time. At your age, it’s certainly on your side.

I don’t think that I’m hung up over her. I haven’t seen her in a year, and I miss her company, but I don’t she’s what’s preventing me from finding a girl. Although, I never asked her out since she was the one who started talking to me in a chemistry lab. I didn’t really have to do anything but show up. If I had to ask her out, I’d probably still be a virgin to this day.

I tried to help and be positive, I really did. Would it make things better for you to tell you that I also suffered from a chronic illness and had a hard time socializing? I found, though, that women often enjoyed my eccentricities. That’s all I got, dude. Good luck!

Thanks. I appreciate what you wrote, but I guess it just doesn’t apply to me. I guess everything is different because I’m a black underachieving geek, and the market for those two traits are polar opposites.

It is a huge weight off to stop trying to date out of your league. It feels a lot more genuine too. I would never have guessed or admitted it was the case until the shift in thinking, imperceptible at first, happened to me.

The fact is, there are a lot of guys out there who are a lot more fun to want than to have. It’s the players’ achilles heel for which they have no defense. Once you internalize that, you can be friends with them and get on with the guys who are worth having.

Violent criminal? I maybe full of hate, but I’m not an idiot. Physical violence gets you in jail. You can’t get arrested for mind-fucking people unless you’re committing fraud. I really doubt that even our government would legislate on fraudulent relationships yet (considering the state of father’s rights).

There is nothing bad about this reaction to my experience. Who is to say what is good or bad? Embrace post-modernism where the relativism of shoddy intellectuals prevents understanding!

It is not by my own experiences alone that I condemn the female gender. It is by their own writing and the experiences of other males that I condemn the female gender. The biggest indictment is sex & the city and the self-identification with the female characters. I have no non-professional respect for those characters as human beings. Part of my annoyance with dealing with women comes from the fact that they are much like sex in the city characters in the US. As accomplished professionally as they maybe, they’re dead or retarded like a child on the inside.

You find what you look for, kid. If you want to find ways to look down on women, you will either engage in behavior that scares off the good ones, or your perception of reality will be so distorted that you will see flaws where there are none.

I’ve been cheated on, and read horribly ignorant and misogynistic things written by men. (Your posts, for example.) But guess what–even though I think you are a total douche and have less empathy than a rock, it is not your fault that my ex of six years ago cheated on me. It is his fault, no one else’s.

However you feel you’ve been wronged by individual women, it’s not like all the women in the world got together and voted that a particular woman should treat you badly. If women are really so beneath your notice, why do you bother with us? Do my insecure sisters a favor. If you’re really too good for us, don’t waste your time. Don’t waste our time.

Being a grownup means directing your anger at appropriate targets. If someone did something unkind to you, yes, like anyone else, you have the right to be angry. But it is utterly childish to make yourself angry by seeking out people you find contemptible, just to work yourself up into a cycle of rage and/or superiority.

Is your own life so pathetic that you would rather spend your time interacting with people who feed your contempt for half of the species? Jesus, can’t you think of anything that would be a better use of your time?

I’ve had friends who’ve been raped, knocked up and left, cheated on, infected with STI’s, beat up or even stabbed, either by significant others or family members. Guess what—none of them use their horrific experiences to justify hating on an entire gender.

I always noticed that slightly older women/plain/average looking women (I didn’t say ugly) were more understanding/human, more easygoing, less pretentious than pretty girls, at least it’s my experience .
So -after disastrous tries with the latters, that ended at best [seldom] in one-nite stands (and I was the one who found the empty bed in the morning), I settled down for the “banal” women (in the physics department maybe, but not in their heart and soul).
I’m 53, and I live happily since 16 years with a women who is 6 years older. (I’ve seen pictures of her at 20 and she was then in the “pretty” category, she probably wouldn’t have dated me back then)….and VERY IMPORTANT : I ‘m the PROVIDER : I work, she stays home, so I call the shots!

[…] bribing the doorman to let them in. The numbers just don’t add up. But since women will cling to their dream of snagging one of these guys many flush away their best years fucking around fruitlessly in the […]

Remember that divorce laws hugely favor women in America. Men with kids in America have it almost as bad as women in Saudi Arabia.

If a married woman with 2 kids decides she wants to jettison her husband, she gets everything under the banner of ‘child support’. Even if she had an affair. No risk to her.

The man, however, is force to live off of 20% of his income, and often has to rent a room in someone’s house even when he is 45 and his initial salary is $100K. It all goes in ‘child support’, which is actually ‘mother support’.

Thus, feminists have buttressed women’s egos by rigging the laws to be lopsided in favor of women. Social conservatives are stupid to fight gay marriage, when they should be fighting this much larger threat to Western society.

[…] typical 35 year old man has better prospects than a typical 35 year old woman. He won’t need to settle as far down the mate ladder as she will. Two, men can better withstand blows to the ego. We are designed to […]

[…] market since the 1950s has evolved toward advantaging short term hookups and disincentivizing settling down: Avery Leake, 25, knows what this is like from the other side. He’s in a relationship now, […]

[…] a nagging crescendo in my ear. Family is saying it, friends are hinting it: When are you going to settle down, Roissy? Usually the words they use are along the lines of “Is she the one? You should think […]

[…] woman. This explains why we see the absurd phenomenon of ugly, aging, unmarried bitter lawyer cunts refusing to settle. Once millions of women are working at the same or higher level as working men, those men — […]

I realize I am joining this conversation late but am really confused by the point of this article. Roissy obviously has a lot of contempt for the “Plain Jane” girls, but I’m not sure why. Because they aren’t hot enough for his taste? Because they are ugly and that offends him for some reason? So why is he so angry when he sees a Plain Jane type of girl in a club who is making a fool of herself by hitting on an “Alpha Male”? He seems to think that the Plain Janes should be hitting on the “Beta Males” who are in their league – but it is clear that Roissy and his ilk would never lower themselves to date a “Plain Jane”! Isn’t this a bit of a contradiction?

Doesn’t Roissy make the point over and over again throughout this blog that “Beta Males” shouldn’t have to “settle” for the “Plain Janes” aka the hideous ugly girls who, really, should probably never leave their homes and inflict the sight of their ugliness on poor guys like Roissy?

God, the bitterness.

Anyway, I’m going to “come out” right now and tell you that I a nerdy Plain Jane myself. I’m perfect aware of my limitations. Through no fault of my own (we can’t pick our genes), I am not and will never be considered “hot.” Also, I am significantly past the 18-24 year old age range of women that Roissy would consider worthy of any male’s attention. Though despite that, I have an active social life and, at the moment, a serious boyfriend who is a geeky electrical engineer. Go figure.

I have never wasted my time in pursuit of so-called “Alpha Males” though I do meet plenty of them in my chosen professional career. Frankly, most “Alpha Males” are incredibly self-centered and boring. I like nerdier guys, honestly. However, I absolutely do not want to be with a guy who thinks he is “settling” for me because he thinks he can’t get someone “hotter.” I don’t want to spend my time with a guy who is bitter and angry because he can’t get a Perfect 10 and is stuck with me. Yes I have dated some guys — geeky, shy, socially inept “Betas” if you want to call it that — who obviously felt like I was beneath them and were bitter about it. And I ended up dumping all of them. Not because they were “Beta Males” but because they were too angry and their negative attitudes toward me wrecked my self esteem.

I’d rather be a single spinster who never has sex again than tolerate being with a guy who really doesn’t want me.

You guys who are so angry at women — well if you are hanging out at clubs and hitting on slutty club girls hoping to get laid, yes you are going to meet a lot of really shallow women who are only looking for a good time, and therefore they will go after the guy who shows them the best time, which is often an Alpha Male. Maybe because he’s less angry and more FUN. If you are going to be bitter and angry, you will sow what you reap.

I really feel your pain. I spend a good deal of my time on blogs of bitter women I’m not attracted to, trying to shame them into being attracted to me. Maybe we can swap tips. Any suggestions on tactics which have worked well?

Dalrock – you can be attracted to whoever you want to be attracted to. Who cares? My question is, why is Roissy picking on Plain Jane girls he doesn’t want anyway? I mean why care if girls you don’t want aren’t interested in you? And my other point is that bitterness is not an attractive quality so maybe that is a bigger problem than being a so called Beta Male. Nobody gets everything they want in life. Nobody.

[…] One other item worth noting is that for past generations at least, if you lived long enough the chances were very high that you would marry at least once. I wasn’t able to combine the tables for those 55 and older due to different formatting in the reports, but in both reports 97% of men and women who made it to their late 60s had married at least once. I don’t know exactly what drives this, but I would guess differences in life expectancy between married and unmarried, as well as some degree of settling. […]

[…] be drawn to human behavior; parallels which are corroborated by real life experience. Women may loathe the idea of settling, but many of them do, as you can readily see by walking out your door and noticing all the ugly ass […]

[…] her prime + throw a good thirty pounds of blubber on her frame = overinflated sense of self and an unyielding refusal to settle that is conveniently aided by her grotesque body which makes her invisible to lesser beta men who […]

[…] her prime + throw a good thirty pounds of blubber on her frame = overinflated sense of self and an unyielding refusal to settle that is conveniently aided by her grotesque body which makes her invisible to lesser beta men who […]

sarah
First of all, get control of your emotions. There; good. Now get down on yur knees and open yur mouth. Now close yur eyes and think of the one single place where yu felt most happy and at peace in yur hole life. Try to go there now. Go There quickly because its safer to be there than here… You are naked by now. You can feel the draft of cold air tweaking your tiny pink nipples. The ropes hurt a little but what does that take away from being in true love????

[…] the men she does go out with. Or, perhaps instead of expecting a perfect white knight to roll up, just settle. GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); GA_googleAddAttr("LangId", […]