And it's true. To whatever extent there's legitimate claims by Palestinians of ill-treatment, of settlements encroaching on land, and on restrictions to travel, there is a direct relationship between the willingness of Hamas and other groups to start lobbing rockets at Israel and Israel's countermeasures.

Those who keep the Palestinians misinformed-- through propaganda, especially of the vile antisemitic form-- are very much, if not entirely, to blame for this bullshit. If Palestinians actually committed to peace, if there was, say, a year without a rocket attack on Israel, there would be enormous diplomatic pressure and internal political pressure on Israel to ease security restrictions, to loosen the blockade, etc. I personally think that Bibi bears some responsibility for the situation, both for his cowardly insinuations against Rabin and for his obvious lack of any real effort on the peace process. But he is still not the root of it, just an unhelpful part.

I don't see this happening anytime soon. Hamas leadership doesn't appear to select for people particualrly afraid of death, and the amount of anti-Israeli propaganda that floods the region-- as well as the inevitable result of Israel's defensive measures, that most Palestinians will know someone or be related to someone who's died in the combat-- pretty much ensures that the current system is self-perpetuating.

I firmly believe the only real solution is the liberalization of the Muslim world. Only then will Israel stop being a useful propaganda tool for dictators, and only by liberalism can fanaticism be tamed.

Only the most recent person to encounter the LGF psychological torture device known as the downding. A brief instant of feeling powerful, followed by the realization of true impotence. Mash that button!

CBS Face The Nation, hosted by Bob Scheiffer, he of "debate" fame who abandoned any notion of foreign policy in a "foreign policy debate", guides a group of talking heads in trying to mix BENGHAZI!! with the Petraeus-sex-pentagon thingy:

Evening Lizardim. I see we have a butthurt sockpuppet on the loose. At least it has outed itself so that Stinky can throw down with the hammer. I trust that the Lizardim have cooled down from last night's/this morning's close-quarters flamethrower combat?

They do act like cowards sometimes, unwilling to confront those to whom they ask questions. On the whole the DC journalism crowd is a *bit* more aggressive than local news reporters, who tend to do nothing but act like doormats for whatever powerful person they were put in front of to get some propaganda.

The title promises "his views", "his visions", and then the actual answers from Pence are extremely vague and non-committal, but the interviewer doesn't even blink and re-ask the questions. E.g.:

Q: If a bill that granted “personhood” to a fetus were to reach your desk, would you sign that? What about a bill that teaches creationism in schools?

A: Let me say as governor of Indiana I believe in the independence and the right of legislators to offer legislation. We won’t prejudge legislation or make any determination about legislation until it would reach our desk.

WTF? These should be no brainers. Remember, he's already been elected, so there is no need to dance around. It is unconstitutional for the government to promote a sectarian religious doctrine, and this has been well fleshed out by the USSC, but Pence still refuses to state the truth.

The GOP is not "learning", and frankly that allegedly leftist media is hardly inquiring.

...We believe that the acceptance of the existence of a State of Israel was a potentially fatal strategic tactical mistake by the Jewish People, and created solely by rabid and virulent anti-semitism in both Great Britain but especially the United States of the 1930's and 1940's, whose caucasian anglo-saxon protestant power structure of the time made it abundantly clear that more Jews were not desired and would be conveniently foisted off on a new Palestine free of British rule. For the Middle East to eventually “deal” with them. We believe this anti-semitism was unforgivable, and can only be atoned for by undoing the wrong.

We believe as long as the Jewish People remain in Diaspora, scattered throughout the world and the vast land area of the United States of America, they are far safer than they are or will ever be when they are gathered together in any one place...

Nothing there but the "We Believe" statement, everything else is "coming soon."

Lol at reaching a whole new level of Jewish concern trolling. "We have to eliminate Israel to keep the Jews safe, it is for their own good!" Uhh...yeah, sure buddy...I totally believe you...

Evening Lizardim. I see we have a butthurt sockpuppet on the loose. At least it has outed itself so that Stinky can throw down with the hammer. I trust that the Lizardim have cooled down from last night's/this morning's close-quarters flamethrower combat?

Evening. I haven't even read through all the comments on that one. I peeked in via the Spy earlier and, sheesh O_o...seems like I whacked a hornet's nest with a big old stick. Not even gonna deal with reading it all til later tonight when it's quiet.

CBS Face The Nation, hosted by Bob Scheiffer, he of "debate" fame who abandoned any notion of foreign policy in a "foreign policy debate", guides a group of talking heads in trying to mix BENGHAZI!! with the Petraeus-sex-pentagon thingy:

Yeah, I thought the title of the online article is misleading too, given the actual subject matter of the clip from FTN.

Anyway, such a clusterfuck of talking head idiocy. These folk have to keep any and every "scandal" going just to justify their outrageous salaries, and you and I are not better for it.

I watched Face the Nation this morning. McCain was on. It took him about 2.5 minutes to go from discussing the Gaza situation to OMG BENGHAZI. To Scheiffer's credit, he at least pressed in on the Ambassador Rice issue. I used to get irritated when Scheiffer didn't call some people on the bs they were spouting (eg at least two of the things McCain said he has serious questions about and Americans need to know were already answered in a NY Times article and Petreaus's hearing on Friday....), but then I started to figure out that he just has certain guests pegged--why confront McCain when he's obviously got an irrational laser sight on Benghazi? The best you can do is start asking what guiding questions you can when your guest takes a completely unrelated topic--the Gaza situation--and manages to leap and bound over to the Benghazi question in under five minutes. *shakes head ruefully* The real problem here is that someone steeped in old man fear is on the Senate Armed Services Committee and thus on shows like Face the Nation all the time.

The one thing he said that sounded interesting to me was his suggestion that former president Clinton might be a good choice for handling negotiations in the current Hamas-Israel conflict. That has an intriguing sound to me, though I'm not sure whether Clinton would/could have the impact McCain seems to think he could.

Nothing there but the "We Believe" statement, everything else is "coming soon."

Lol at reaching a whole new level of Jewish concern trolling. "We have to eliminate Israel to keep the Jews safe, it is for their own good!" Uhh...yeah, sure buddy...I totally believe you...

///

WTF is this happy horseshit?:

We believe as long as the Jewish People remain in Diaspora, scattered throughout the world and the vast land area of the United States of America, they are far safer than they are or will ever be when they are gathered together in any one place...

Evening. I haven't even read through all the comments on that one. I peeked in via the Spy earlier and, sheesh O_o...seems like I whacked a hornet's nest with a big old stick. Not even gonna deal with reading it all til later tonight when it's quiet.

I wouldn't bother even then. Needless to say, I made a killing selling fire-resistant scales. Oh, and dropped a few cat pictures on the thread to help relieve the tension. As I'm sure you've figured out, anything and everything touching on Israel is a very intense subject in these parts.

We believe as long as the Jewish People remain in Diaspora, scattered throughout the world and the vast land area of the United States of America, they are far safer than they are or will ever be when they are gathered together in any one place...

The domain is registered to a Leslie Bell of United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. in Las Vegas. Looks like the owner is a guy named Michael Feldman. Nutrei Karta maybe? Do any of those guys even live in Vegas? I can't quite picture them there.

Evening. I haven't even read through all the comments on that one. I peeked in via the Spy earlier and, sheesh O_o...seems like I whacked a hornet's nest with a big old stick. Not even gonna deal with reading it all til later tonight when it's quiet.

Along with the usual heated discussions on the subject, there seemed to be some misunderstandings that popped up as the thread wore on; the one that stuck out the most for me, SFZ seemed to take it that Gus was advocating or accepting the premise of "fake but accurate" if if could be proven that those videos were staged. I don't think that was the case; I like Gus and SFZ both and I don't want to see friction between any Lizards because of a misunderstanding or misread.

There seemed to be some misunderstandings that popped up as the thread wore on; the one that stuck out the most for me, SFZ seemed to take it that Gus was advocating or accepting the premise of "fake but accurate" if if could be proven that those videos were staged. I don't think that was the case; I like Gus and SFZ both and I don't want to see friction between any Lizards because of a misunderstanding or misread.

Ugh. Nope, I don't advocate that at all. It's counter productive in the first place.

The domain is registered to a Leslie Bell of United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. in Las Vegas. Looks like the owner is a guy named Michael Feldman. Nutrei Karta maybe? Do any of those guys even live in Vegas? I can't quite picture them there.

These kind of things really are too easy - Google has done all the real work for you. The tough questions remain - what does this company really do, and why do they do it, and who is paying for it all.

The domain is registered to a Leslie Bell of United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. in Las Vegas. Looks like the owner is a guy named Michael Feldman. Nutrei Karta maybe? Do any of those guys even live in Vegas? I can't quite picture them there.

Ugh. Nope, I don't advocate that at all. It's counter productive in the first place.

I'm hoping it was a misread on SFZ's part; here was her last post last night:

252 SanFranciscoZionist 11/17/2012 9:32:52 pm PST

re: #70 Gus

I'm willing to accept that some of this was staged yet still find it irrelevant. The efforts to spread this video as another Pallywood stunt is an effort to minimize the hardship and suffering by the Gazans during this operation. So was some of this acting? Maybe. That still doesn't affect my position.

Holy shit.

OK, I'm out of here for a few days. I can handle a lot, but the defense of 'fake but accurate' is really more than I can take right now.

My eyes glaze over when I see all of this coverage about Israel and Palestinians. Yes, I understand it is important socially or religiously to some of you, but the world has so many problems, and most of them are on a far bigger scale.

For example, since 1998 the various inter-national and intra-national conflicts in the Congo has claimed a total of about 5 million victims, either killed, injured, or forced to move.

5 million. In little over 14 years.

And tell me, how many front page headlines has that garnered?

Well?

Damn few.

Or how about this: right now, in Bangladesh, a sweeping fire in a major slum has killed at least 11, and injured or displace an unknown figure. Just one in a sea of tragedies there. On rare occasion Bangladesh does get a headline, but mostly we'd just rather forget the millions living in squalor there, as long as we can get our really cheap clothes at the local $1 discount store.

So I take all this coverage of a small state in the middle east with its most likely intractable inter-religious squabbles as a fixation due to our own religious heritage and, frankly, an escape from tackling the bigger problems of the bigger world.

The funniest fake photo came out of Gaza during the Rooster period.
I wish I could find it again... I fell out of my chair laughing.
They had a picture of a little old lady in Gaza saying in the caption that her house had been shot up by the IDF. She had the proof in her hands of the left over carnage with unfired shells as proof.
I still laugh

The funniest fake photo came out of Gaza during the Rooster period.
I wish I could find it again... I fell out of my chair laughing.
They had a picture of a little old lady in Gaza saying in the caption that her house had been shot up by the IDF. She had the proof in her hands of the left over carnage with unfired shells as proof.
I still laugh

There's an obvious reason, though, that Israel gets more attention: Within living memory, Jews were rounded up, put into camps, and executed by the millions. So were other groups, like Polish intellectuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, leftists of every variety, but there was a real, concerted effort to wipe out the Jews. And millions upon millions died. If Rommel hadn't been stopped on his approach to then-Palestine, even more would have died.

The rhetoric used by many Arab nations in regards to Israel is eliminationist, carrying with it the overtones of the Holocaust.

Obviously, in an overwhelming Christian country like ours, there's the religious emphasis as well. I completely agree with that. But I do think the historical perspective of the creation of Israel during a time of mass Jewish persecution is relevant, too.

So I take all this coverage of a small state in the middle east with its most likely intractable inter-religious squabbles as a fixation due to our own religious heritage and, frankly, an escape from tackling the bigger problems of the bigger world.

Well, yes and no. I agree there are many important international issues, many with higher death tolls and greater suffering than the Israel/Palestine issue. Especially Americans are woefully ignorant and callous as to what's happening in the world around them. However, issues regarding Israel have a larger ripple effect. Will Hezbollah join in the fun if Israel goes into Gaza. Will Egypt get involved or allow terrorist attack from Sinai? Iran? Assad? Al Qaeda?
It's not like WWIII is going to break out or anything but what happens with Israel does have a large effect on the rest of the world. I think more importantly once Muslim nations begin to accept Israel's existence and get on with improving their own lives instead of blaming others the world will become a much happier and safer place.

There are 1.7 million people in Gaza (according to Wikipedia), not a small population... for a city.

Gaza has an area of roughly 17 square miles. I could jog around it in a day and still have time for other activities.

The city of San Diego incorporates 325 square miles, 19x the size of Gaza.

Gaza is but a mid size city on the world scale, in population, and not very large in area for a city compared to Western hemisphere standards.

When I wrote "intractable" above I really mean it. Yes, it is clear that a non-trivial portion of the Gaza community have bought into the anti-semitism so commonly preached, but there is nothing I can do about that, and call me doomer if you will, but I doubt there is anything any of you can do about it either.

Not all problems we humans create can be fixed.

I'd rather we spent our (collective, national) efforts on those problems we have a chance of fixing, and with whatever we have left try to create an society that avoids the problems in the first place.

I'm glad the President is heading to SE Asia, a region too quickly forgotten. I really wish he'd spend more time in Latin America, where I propose we have a better chance of seeing real progress in co-creating positive change and a brighter future.

It's not being a doomer, it's just being ridiculous to think that anti-semitism in the Palestinian population is irrevocable. Propaganda can be reversed. Japan went from our dire enemy of evil monkey-men who all had twisted brains to our ally and international friend, full of funky fun people and weird comedy shows.

So a man called Michael Calleri had been writing movie reviews for the Niagara Falls Reporter for years when a new owner bought the paper. Soon after this only some of his reviews were being published and many of his old reviews started disappearing from the papers website.

He also noticed that all the top women at the paper were now gone and that the tone of the paper was changing a lot. When he contacted the new owner to find out what was going on with his reviews this is the response he got...

Michael; I know you are committed to writing your reviews, and put a lot of effort into them. it is important for you to have the right publisher. i may not be it. i have a deep moral objection to publishing reviews of films that offend me. snow white and the huntsman is such a film. when my boys were young i would never have allowed them to go to such a film for i believe it would injure their developing manhood. if i would not let my own sons see it, why would i want to publish anything about it?

snow white and the huntsman is trash. moral garbage. a lot of fuzzy feminist thinking and pandering to creepy hollywood mores produced by metrosexual imbeciles.

I don't want to publish reviews of films where women are alpha and men are beta.

where women are heroes and villains and men are just lesser versions or shadows of females.

i believe in manliness.

not even on the web would i want to attach my name to snow white and the huntsman except to deconstruct its moral rot and its appeal to unmanly perfidious creeps.

i'm not sure what headhunter has to offer either but of what I read about it it sounds kind of creepy and morally repugnant.

with all the publications in the world who glorify what i find offensive, it should not be hard for you to publish your reviews with any number of these.

they seem to like critiques from an artistic standpoint without a word about the moral turpitude seeping into the consciousness of young people who go to watch such things as snow white and get indoctrinated to the hollywood agenda of glorifying degenerate power women and promoting as natural the weakling, hyena -like men, cum eunuchs.

the male as lesser in courage strength and power than the female.

it may be ok for some but it is not my kind of manliness.

If you care to write reviews where men act like good strong men and have a heroic inspiring influence on young people to build up their character (if there are such movies being made) i will be glad to publish these.

i am not interested in supporting the reversing of traditional gender roles.

i don't want to associate the Niagara Falls Reporter with the trash of Hollywood and their ilk.

it is my opinion that hollywood has robbed america of its manliness and made us a nation of eunuchs who lacking all manliness welcome in the coming police state.

now i realize that you have a relationship with the studios etc. and i would have been glad to have discussed this in person with you to help you segue into another relationship with a publication but inasmuch as we spent 50 minutes on the phone from paris i did not want to take up more of your time.

In short i don't care to publish reviews of films that offend me.

if you care to condemn the filmmakers as the pandering weasels that they are.... true hyenas.

i would be interested in that....

Frank

Well I guess now we know why there are no longer any women in top positions at the paper...sheesh. :(

...Propaganda can be reversed. Japan went from our dire enemy of evil monkey-men who all had twisted brains to our ally and international friend, full of funky fun people and weird comedy shows.

I think that analogy won't work. Japanese were not "evil" in Americans' eyes until the late 30's, and even then it took government propaganda to convince them so, in light of Pearl Harbor made an easy job.

America prized Japan so much we sent war ships there in the 19th century to force them to open up to us.

There are no productive parallels between Japan-US and the feelings of those in Gaza towards Israel.

The anti-semitism we see today in Gaza has very deep roots, was not invented in 1948 but taps into much older hatred.

It's that religious/ethnic hatred that I am quite convinced I am powerless to fix. First, its too far removed from me, secondly the participants are hardly listening.

I think that analogy won't work. Japanese were not "evil" in Americans' eyes until the late 30's, and even then it took government propaganda to convince them so, in light of Pearl Harbor made an easy job.

Yeah, it took propaganda and some bombing to convince them.

America prized Japan so much we sent war ships there in the 19th century to force them to open up to us.

True, not sure why that's relevant at all.

There are no productive parallels between Japan-US and the feelings of those in Gaza towards Israel.

So quoth you, so mote it be! It wasn't an attempt to draw a parallel, though. It was just an example of virulent propaganda reversing once the underlying causes went away.

The anti-semitism we see today in Gaza has very deep roots, was not invented in 1948 but taps into much older hatred.

No, it doesn't. There is no old hatred between Muslims and Jews. What older hatred are you referring to?

It's that religious/ethnic hatred that I am quite convinced I am powerless to fix. First, its too far removed from me, secondly the participants are hardly listening.

And my Palestinian friends are getting even more tweaked now. They are saying there is no good reason to use DIME weapons in such a densely populated place.

The entire point of a dense inert metal explosive is to limit collateral damage. The kinetic energy of the blast is somewhat absorbed by the tungsten, reducing the radius, brisance, and speed of the shockwave.

Now there are valid criticisms, it's a new tech and some of the health side effects of nano scale shrapnel penetration aren't well understood, but it's wrong to say that there's no good reason to use a technology explicitly designed to reduce effective blast radius in a dense populated environment.

Where do people get the idea that there's this old conflict between Jews and Muslims? Sure, there were times when Muslim regimes expelled jews, confiscated property, actually went to war with Jewish communities, but it is historically very much Christians that have persecuted and slaughtered Jews in greater numbers. The Muslim countries were often a place of refuge from Christian persecution, and in Palestine/Israel, Jews fought on the side of Muslims against the Christian crusaders.

The one thing he said that sounded interesting to me was his suggestion that former president Clinton might be a good choice for handling negotiations in the current Hamas-Israel conflict. That has an intriguing sound to me, though I'm not sure whether Clinton would/could have the impact McCain seems to think he could.

And here I'd been thinking soon-to-be-former Sec of State Clinton should be the one to do that. She'll soon have time on her hands, and if she could narrow her focus to just that one issue, she could solve it quicker than anyone else we've got (including her husband).

Can you please put a bit of effort into explaining what you mean? How is the Western stereotype of the Jew the source of antisemitism among Palestinians? Obviously some of the antisemitic materials are recycled from Western sources-- is that what you mean?

I'm sorry, but that seems to completely obviate Arab/Muslim culture and assert that the West has cultural dominance there. Maybe I'm not getting you.

We are no longer seen as an honest broker by the Arab World. I would push Norway, Sweden, and Finland to broker the deal. And Israel must concede most of the West Bank and guarantee Palestinian Rights to the Temple Mount.

I'm sorry, but that seems to completely obviate Arab/Muslim culture and assert that the West has cultural dominance there. Maybe I'm not getting you.

Well, I guess I did obviate, but that is because I'm trying to squeeze into 2 sentences that which probably takes two pages to explain.

For example, not all Palestinians are Muslim. Some identify as "Christian" (albeit more so in the West Bank.) Do those Christian Palestinians hold to the same anti-semitism as their Muslim fellows? Well, yes, at least some of them do, from the images and stories that have come across over the years.

Thus the anti-semitism isn't just a simple religion-vs-religion, or even one culture vs. another culture. It is targeted hated that has many strings pulled through history.

Against such a complex and deep culture of hatred I do feel that we, so far removed, will not make progress. When generations die off - then, perhaps, new generations might work it out differently.

Yes really. Being on the receiving end of any ordnance sucks, but a straight RDX / HMX high explosive would have a much greater lethal radius. DIME is designed to maximize the kinetic energy absorbed by the structure hit without turning the structure itself into lethal shrapnel moving at high velocity. It's like a hollow point bullet, designed to expand and expend all of the energy within the target, without over-penetrating.

Against such a complex and deep culture of hatred I do feel that we, so far removed, will not make progress. When generations die off - then, perhaps, new generations might work it out differently.

I still don't get what this deep history you think is. You said it was the Western stereotype of the Jew. What does the Western stereotype of the Jew have to do with Palestinian antisemitism? Aside from recycling of antisemitic behavior, Arab stereotypes of Jews are very different from Western ones.

They should, you are right. However, it seems nobody remembers that Israel's hands aren't clean either. With the exception of a very small number, most in the US are not aware of the 2 massacres I have mentioned, and when you have people like Gilad Sharon calling for the flattening of neighborhoods of Gaza, that is not helping.

So a man called Michael Calleri had been writing movie reviews for the Niagara Falls Reporter for years when a new owner bought the paper. Soon after this only some of his reviews were being published and many of his old reviews started disappearing from the papers website.

He also noticed that all the top women at the paper were now gone and that the tone of the paper was changing a lot. When he contacted the new owner to find out what was going on with his reviews this is the response he got...

Well I guess now we know why there are no longer any women in top positions at the paper...sheesh. :(

iirc, Israelis (via Israeli courts) have been prosecuted for such crimes
Can you show me where the reverse is true?

when you have people like Gilad Sharon calling for the flattening of neighborhoods of Gaza

What influence does he have on the current gov't/ military decisions? i'd be willing to wager that offspring of prominent Palistinian leaders harbor just a much ill will towards Israeli neighborhoods. In other words, so what

Increasing the mass by mixing it in with the same amount of explosive (instead of constraining the explosive with a jacket), means more of the energy is spent trying to accelerate that mass, reducing the blast radius. The other thing is that smaller, nano sized bits of stuff accelerate and decelerate faster because of the greater surface area to mass ratio. In other words their KE is more likely to be dispersed into the first thing they hit rather than travel far through it, whether that first thing is air, concrete or flesh.

There has never been a single prosecution for Deir Yassin or Al-Dawayima. In fact, even 64 years later, the report on Al-Dawayima has not even been released, which lead me to believe whatever is in it must be somehow worse than the amount we do know.

There has never been a single prosecution for Deir Yassin or Al-Dawayima. In fact, even 64 years later, the report on Al-Dawayima has not even been released, which lead me to believe whatever is in it must be somehow worse than the amount we do know.

What about Hebron 1929? What about the Hadassah medical convoy? Jerusalem 1936?

There has never been a single prosecution for Deir Yassin or Al-Dawayima. In fact, even 64 years later, the report on Al-Dawayima has not even been released, which lead me to believe whatever is in it must be somehow worse than the amount we do know.

Yeah I wasn't going to say anything but that was a pretty funny comment. LGF is one of the biggest internet supporters of Israel since quite literally the beginning of the 'blogosphere' and a high percentage of the commenters are Jewish relative to both the US and international population.

The more I examine the recent history of the region, the less I want to play. The critical point to me is that none of the state actors want peace, and all have acted in one fashion or another to sabotage it.

Let me slightly rephrase. They are all willing to accept peace if it is interpreted as "those guys go away."

There are, and were, many voices in the various states that have been honest actors in the peace process. Many are dead. Those that remain are, at best, gadflies large enough to be heard regardless. But for the past decade nobody in the region - and I include Israel - has honestly moved for peace. And in fact all have acted in ways to slow if not outright undercut the peace process.

I would rather live with Israel than any of the other nations. But I will acknowledge them as the victims or "right" in this conflict -- not wholly.

We only hear on hear about how the Palestinians are the ones doing the bad actions.

In the current moment?

My logic is, considering that, I can point out what the Palestinians are going through without talking about the other side, as most of you are already doing it.

That's logic, huh? You're clearly not going to pay any attention to anyone else who's talking about the Palestinians and what they're going through. I mean, I have, but you clearly just don't give a shit. Why do you constantly try to paint this black and white picture?

Some pretty bad reporting lately. I think they were first to run the bogus article about the Hamas guy assassinated last week was in possession of some awesome secret peace plan so the Israelis killed him. There was another really bad one today about an ex general who arguing that lifting the sea blockade would be a good idea. They've always been a little dovish but still worth reading. Lately they've been pretty bad.

In the last 60 years there have been all kinds of Israeli governments, Right. Left. Labor, various coalitions of all stripes- and yet the Palestinian leadership has been unable to find a way to make peace.

That has been a constant.

You know what else has been a constant?

Incessant and relentless racism, bigotry and hate directed at Israelis (and Jews and other religious minorities) by Palestinian and Arab world leaders.

Lastly, do you really want to compare the Irgun to Hamas? Do you really want to compare what may have been tragic events to what is a decades old ideology of violence and hate- not only at Israelis but towards Palestinians as well?

Probably right now because my friends in question are getting me frustrated with the situation.

Granted, this is more towards the entire media. The media doesn't tend to care about the Palestinians. I could probably count the number of reports that don't paint the Palestinians as evil from the media in the past 4 years on my hands.

Not to mention I remember an incident when I was in MSA in Junior Year (I think? (I was already attending MSA as a friend of a few Muslims in late Sophomore Year) This was way before the ineffective nutcase from last year was in power. Apparently, a Pro-Israeli Group on campus decided to call the campus police on us. That got all of us ticked off. And the kicker is that MSA really doesn't talk about Palestine much, if at all. There's a Pro-Palestinian group on campus for that.

Probably right now because my friends in question are getting me frustrated with the situation.

Granted, this is more towards the entire media. The media doesn't tend to care about the Palestinians. I could probably count the number of reports that don't paint the Palestinians as evil from the media in the past 4 years on my hands.

Not to mention I remember an incident when I was in MSA in Junior Year (I think? (I was already attending MSA as a friend of a few Muslims in late Sophomore Year) This was way before the ineffective nutcase from last year was in power. Apparently, a Pro-Israeli Group on campus decided to call the campus police on us. That got all of us ticked off. And the kicker is that MSA really doesn't talk about Palestine much, if at all. There's a Pro-Palestinian group on campus for that.

Ah. If I make an observation:

The fans are always worse than the players.

I've noted above my opinion, but to hold a grudge against Israel because of Israel's fans is both very human and a mistake. Your call as to what you do about it, of course, but that's my observation.

Are you aware of the crap they did? King David Hotel Bombing, those 2 massacres, the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte (which has made relations between Israel and Sweden real cold), among others.

And Likud, the modern descendant of Irgun, continues to whitewash at least the first and the last incident.

Are you aware of the crap they did? King David Hotel Bombing, those 2 massacres, the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte (which has made relations between Israel and Sweden real cold), among others.

And Likud, the modern descendant of Irgun, continues to whitewash at least the first and the last incident.

Do you understand that the King David Hotel was British Army HQ? That wasn't a civilian target.

What really galled me about that was who that was against, by implications.

A sweet Pakistani Lady who has been at the forefront at trying to not let me be consumed by anger. Very pacifistic, she is someone who urged me to give mercy to the Republicans in those first 4 months after Utoya. Eventually, her efforts did succeed in part, a few months ago, after I graduated.

Are you aware the Irgun virtually always called to warn people to leave the area?

In any event, I repeat my question- do you really want to compare the Irgun to Hamas?

And let me be clear- I' do not bl;me the average Palestinian or Arab for the mess we find ourselves in. They, more than anyone else have been the biggest victims of Palestinians and Arab world corrupt, dysfunctional leaders.

They have been exploited and used to further not political agendas but power agendas.

I'll repeat:

imagine a school that gave each student a glass of alcohol every day. Each day, beginning at tender nursery school age, the child was encouraged to drink the beverage that would come to poison his spirit, soul and mind.

Suppose that beverage was from the well aged bottle of anti Semitism.

Suppose also that once that child downed that alcoholic beverage, the teacher refilled that glass with more alcohol. This time, the flavor is religious bigotry directed at non Jews.

Imagine once that glass of alcohol was consumed by young dutiful children, the glass was immediately refilled with the beverage from the bottle of anti western and anti democratic values.

After decades those children, now adults, go home every day, turn on the television and read the newspapers and they are fed more alcohol. They get yet more when their kids come home from school, and share the same familiar poisoned ‘fire water.’ They poison they are fed gets the God’s seal of approval when fed to them from the pulpit- or so they desperately need to believe.

Of course, to keep a drunk or a junkie hooked, it takes an ever increasing amount of poison to induce the same stupor that blinds the drunk or the junkie to his own surroundings and dysfunction. The supply of poison never ends.

After years of such ‘education,’ it would be reasonable to expect that there would be a lot of alcoholics in the Arab world deliberately poisoned by the hate and ideologies of dysfunctional and corrupt leaders. Like alcoholics and substance abusers, they will tell you they ‘have it under control‘ and that they ‘can quit anytime they want.‘ In the Arab world, that translates into, “We really are civilized, it’s only the injustices of others that causes us to behave the way we do. We seek justice.” They are blind to their own dysfunction, they are blind to their own deceit and remain so by embracing hate.

Threads like this remind me that I really need to learn more about what the hell is going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with respect to the politics on the ground. I understand the conflict in the abstract but it's hard to find information that's truly objective.

Threads like this remind me that I really need to learn more about what the hell is going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with respect to the politics on the ground. I understand the conflict in the abstract but it's hard to find information that's truly objective.

Meh. I have very little to add to these conversations. It's one of those rare instances when I'll allow myself some blissful ignorance.

Torn between remarking on this topic for the sake of justice, cynical to do so because there are none so blind who refuse to see. . . I have a dissertation about the Jewish Community of Milwaukee to write (Golda was one of those peeps, so was Victor Berger) so all I can really say is that "suffering" and "responsibility" seem conflicted in the case of Gaza . . .

Probably right now because my friends in question are getting me frustrated with the situation.

Granted, this is more towards the entire media. The media doesn't tend to care about the Palestinians. I could probably count the number of reports that don't paint the Palestinians as evil from the media in the past 4 years on my hands.

Ignoring, say, the BBC, European media in general, and a significant proportion of US media, sure.

You always have these personal reasons for being 'frustrated' or whatever and saying dumb shit. Why can't you realize how black-and-white you're being when you're frustrated, and rethink it, try to empathize with the other 'side', and come to a synthesis? You'd be a much happier person, I think, if you didn't have this bizarre need to vehemently choose a side and play ultimate partisan.

Threads like this remind me that I really need to learn more about what the hell is going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with respect to the politics on the ground. I understand the conflict in the abstract but it's hard to find information that's truly objective.

LGF is a good place to learn about the complexities.
The middle of a firefight approaching 100 casualties is not a good time.

But sputter sputter. . .they, the Jews, were STATELESS. . .sputter sputter. . .sorry, but come ON with this straw man/woman crap. If you want/need to equate the Iragun with Hamas, and STILL SUPPORT HAMAS, then you have to give Iragun the same consideration. . .and stop using it as a specious means to attack Israel as it is today. . .

On August 19, 2003 (22 Av 5763), a Hamas suicide bomber sent out by the organization's Hebron cell disguised himself as a Haredi Jew and detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus traveling through Jerusalem's Shmuel HaNavi neighborhood. He blew himself up after entering the back door.[2]The double-length bus was crowded with Orthodox Jewish children returning from a visit to the Western Wall. The huge explosion killed 7 children and 16 adults, among them an eight-months-pregnant woman, and injured more than 130 people. The bomb was spiked with ball-bearings designed to increase injuries on the crowded bus. Hamas said the bomber was a 29-year-old mosque preacher from the city of Hebron.

Because so many of the dead were young children,[3] the media dubbed it the "children's bus." According to an Associated Press report,

Strollers were scattered near the stricken bus, medics carried away children with blood-smeared faces and a baby girl died in a hospital before doctors could find her parents. At least five children were among the 18 dead in Tuesday's suicide bombing by a Palestinian militant who blew himself up on a Jerusalem bus. Forty children were among more than 100 people injured. The attack was the 100th Palestinian suicide bombing against Israelis since the latest round of fighting began in September 2000. The youth of the victims stands out in that grim list, and the government said the choice of target was particularly cold-blooded.[4]

Should all Palestinians be held accountable for that forever and ever?

I disagree on many points, suffice to say that if as YOU claim, that Israel WAS intent on such an odious path, why did they leave in 2005? Why did they NOT bomb into oblivion? Ummm maybe because that is not their end game? Oh, SNAP how could THAT be. . .since we Jews are all so evil. . .///

Threads like this remind me that I really need to learn more about what the hell is going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with respect to the politics on the ground. I understand the conflict in the abstract but it's hard to find information that's truly objective.

Yeah, do some digging. Everyone who does seems to come to different conclusions, but they all tend to recognize it's a tangled mess.

Me, I used to be (as someone upthread said) a 100% supporter of Israel. Then on one of my assignments I got to spend a couple of weeks with some soldiers from the IDF. Near the end we went drinking, and I learned that the bigotry of the Arabs is matched entire. Arabs are animals and swine (and yes, that), and killing a child is more important than killing an adult because the child had more years of threat ahead of him.

A later multinational exercise let me learn that this platoon wasn't unique. And with that I went digging, because I couldn't get how these soldiers and the image I had meshed.

There are some major cultural problems in Israel, problems that are going to do for them what slavery did here. And it appears a significant slice of the powers that be in Israel are fine with that.

Forced to choose between Israel and Iran, I'd go with Israel. I just wouldn't like it.

I disagree on many points, suffice to say that if as YOU claim, that Israel WAS intent on such an odious path, why did they leave in 2005? Why did they NOT bomb into oblivion? Ummm maybe because that is not their end game? Oh, SNAP how could THAT be. . .since we Jews are all so evil. . .///

"91 people were killed, most of them being staff of the hotel or Secretariat: 21 were first-rank government officials; 49 were second-rank clerks, typists and messengers, junior members of the Secretariat, employees of the hotel and canteen workers; 13 were soldiers; 3 policemen; and 5 were members of the public."

The airstrike today that killed four children was very bad. Even being a supporter of Israel, it's very difficult to justify this, and it turns public opinion rapidly against Israel when it happens. Very unfortunate.

I'm also trying to understand what the goal of a ground operation would be, and finding it difficult to come up with a scenario that makes sense. Without committing to a full-scale war against Hamas, with all that entails (which would probably be impossible in the current climate), what could Israel really achieve with an invasion of Gaza?

And even worse is the prospect that it could turn into another lengthy occupation.

I agree with Obama that Israel absolutely has the right to defend against missile attacks, but it seems like an invasion wouldn't do much to achieve that end. At best, they can do enough damage to set Hamas back in the very short term, but there's no shortage of explosives and weaponry in the region and without a comprehensive plan to prevent Hamas from building up their arsenals, it's just going to happen all over again in the not very distant future.

This is what frustrates every President - there's no end game visible, no matter how you restructure the playing field.

I disagree on many points, suffice to say that if as YOU claim, that Israel WAS intent on such an odious path, why did they leave in 2005? Why did they NOT bomb into oblivion? Ummm maybe because that is not their end game? Oh, SNAP how could THAT be. . .since we Jews are all so evil. . .///

Well, they forced out the settlers in 2005. They continued occupation, and conducted attacks in 2006 and 2009. Israel has maintained a broad blockade since 2006.

As an indicator to make me begin, yes I can defend it. Of three IDF units with which I worked, two wholly and one partially had members who displayed - who openly made - these sorts of statements when they were relaxed and comfortable with my presence.

"Appears a significant slice" is a statement of opinion, not statistical review.

I'd give my two cents on this subject but that would do the issue a disservice, so here are two quarters and a dime...

Yes, I believe this is a disproportionate response to rocket attacks. I fail to see what this accomplishes. These actions will only lead to more terrorists in the future.

However.

In broader terms, it seems to me that the Palestinians in Gaza (not so sure about the West Bank; are they calmer or something?) are incapable of governing themselves. There should not be rockets falling on Israeli cities. Their government needs to be held accountable for that.

Sorry- need more than hearsay to believe you. . .can I talk to these people you "quote"?

1. I am not quoting. I am stating my experience.
2. It was in the early 1980s, and I was a SP4 in the rangers for two situations and in a pathfinder detachment for the other. For several reasons I do not have the names or ranks of the individuals.
3. You are free to disbelieve. However, I would point to this survey (haaretz link) and note that if these are the attitudes of high schoolers, it's likely to believe the soldiers who've actually fought the ugly fight would feel at least the same.

Sorry, I 'm an academic, I consider you N=1 and that is not a very good place to start. I don't play games with this, I ask you to take stock- can you really, with integrity, say you "know" the IDF, and the Jews in Israel because of this? If so, well, carry on, not much I can do to enlighten you, if not, maybe we could actually discuss things. . .just saying- gotta go finish chapter 6. . .Hooo RAH!

In broader terms, it seems to me that the Palestinians in Gaza (not so sure about the West Bank; are they calmer or something?) are incapable of governing themselves. There should not be rockets falling on Israeli cities. Their government needs to be held accountable for that.

Solution? Maybe Romney was right about this one...

The West bank is run by the Palestinian Authority and controlled by the Fatah party, the Hamas supporters took over the Gaza strip and threw Fatah out. So now the Palestinians are actually split under two separate governments. :(

Given the instability in Syria and the lunatic Hezbollah in Lebanon Israel has no choice but to take the threats very seriously.

I think it's a bit different. Gaza's rocket supply is probably already pretty much depleted. They can carry on maybe another week or so before they're all out. I think the last incursion into Gaza was supposed to draw out fighters to be killed in combat and possibly capture leaders but that didn't really happen. Fighters mostly stayed home, leaders fled or hid in UN facilities and hospitals. This article grabbed me for the perverse headline but it's worth checking out: Analysis: Hamas finds cause to smile under Israeli assault

Basically, the public support of Hamas comes from the appearance that they're fighting Israel. No matter that they're taking explosives out of their rockets to increase range. They aren't hitting any military targets and they're very lucky if a tiny fraction of 1% of the launches even injures an Israeli civilian. During periods when Hamas lays low they look like douchebags to the palestinians when Islamic Jihad launches some useless rockets. Public support depends on the public appearance of fighting, no matter how ineffectually. So why would Israel invade Gaza? Maybe because they know Hamas pussies aren't going to fight or resist. They'll hide and cower in schools and hospitals until the Israelis leave. Maybe that's the point.

Would you like to see surveys of Palestinians and Arabs to see what they think of Israel?

As for the survey you cite, recent experience has shown Haaretz surveys to be at best, suspect.

Vicious Babushka knows a bit about that.

Why is there this constant desire for zero-sum? I have never said hamas or any of the others are good. My statement is that there are indicators (not PROOF, but INDICATORS) that a large plurality of Israelis feel the same toward Arabs.

Or am I running into "this is my side right or wrong, and so it is right?"

I disagree on many points, suffice to say that if as YOU claim, that Israel WAS intent on such an odious path, why did they leave in 2005? Why did they NOT bomb into oblivion? Ummm maybe because that is not their end game? Oh, SNAP how could THAT be. . .since we Jews are all so evil. . .///

If you would stop foaming at the mouth for two seconds, you might notice you're arguing against someone who is mostly on your side.

Notwithstanding all the hype, the Israeli have been remarkably inept at genocide as claimed.

On the other hand, Palestinian leaders are not shy about their intentions and calls to genocide.

It's pretty clear researchok is saying that if Israel is intent on genocide, they really suck at it (i.e. their actions are not those of one intent on genocide).

What I am trying to do is show the issues in context- and they are not equivalent.

I have written (recently) of Israeli flaws and faults when it comes to the Palestinians (and I have the hate mail to prove it). However, that in no way mitigates the culpability of decades of dysfunctional Palestinian leadership that have forced the Israelis hand.

When you have a group of terrorists who will attempt to use a mentally disabled child to deliver a suicide bomb, you have reached a level of dysfunction that cannot be fixed.

The only option is to get rid of them and start over.

The Palestinians deserve better than the leaders they have. And just about anything would be better.

Sorry, I 'm an academic, I consider you N=1 and that is not a very good place to start. I don't play games with this, I ask you to take stock- can you really, with integrity, say you "know" the IDF, and the Jews in Israel because of this? If so, well, carry on, not much I can do to enlighten you, if not, maybe we could actually discuss things. . .just saying- gotta go finish chapter 6. . .Hooo RAH!

If you're an academic I ask two things. First, actually reread my remarks instead of putting in what you think I said. paraphrasing:
I received an (anecdotal) experience that jarred with my perception. I then experienced similar remarks two more times.

I decided to research the history of the region using multiple sources. Now apparently missed - I'm not an academic, but I do research. I'm an experienced librarian. I know a little bit about finding and weighting validity of resources.

Second, I ask that you actually do the research - the whole thing, with open mind. It's very hard when you've a personal interest (been there, done that). But I ask it.

The dirty reality is that the Israelis are not as bad as the Arabs. They are not, however, clean.

Now at $63 Billion, with 131 dead. Ike killed 135 in the US (112 dead, 23 still missing), meaning Sandy came close to toppling Ike for the Worst since Katrina Award (Which, counting the still not found missing, is close to 2,000).

I think Sandy will end up toppling Katrina vis-a-vis cost. We got our asses handed to us by Sandy.

Now at $63 Billion, with 131 dead. Ike killed 135 in the US (112 dead, 23 still missing), meaning Sandy came close to toppling Ike for the Worst since Katrina Award (Which, counting the still not found missing, is close to 2,000).

I think Sandy will end up toppling Katrina vis-a-vis cost. We got our asses handed to us by Sandy.

Lots of intangibles here to consider here also, will this weaken Fatah if they don't respond to help their fellows in Gaza? Will Hezbollah withdraw fighters from their support of Assad in Syria to join in the attacks on Israel? Will the possibility of ground action in Gaza siphon away some of the Jihadis coming to the region to join in the fighting in Syria? Will Assad get more breathing room due to the focus of the international community being shifted away from him?

That is the problem with the middle east everything seems to always effect everything else. Maybe we just need to ask Bush to go straighten all these messes out for us, just a few years ago he claimed he had the whole situation over there completely figured out, remember?

stop now- don't cloud the mind with facts- if the truth about the King David bombing isn't sinking in, Jenin won't. . .

But seriously- it is really REALLY hard to fathom the disconnect between the dynamics here. . .smh really? Please link me to any source that documents ANY IDF or Igragun operation that blew up a bus, school, cafe, with a single suicide bomber in order to maximize loss of life. . .

You OK, Hoops? I know that the Colts defense absolutely failed todau, and gave up 59 points to New England. I'm just hoping you're not too mad at Tom Brady.

//

They didn't show it here.I watched Peyton Manning beat the chargers and last nights OU game was a barn burner we won 50-49 the game went down to the last 2 secs. Luck is going to be great also..Thunder won so i'm pretty happy

The thing I can't wrap my head around is the settlements. What would you do if somebody forced youout of your home, shipped you off to some ghetto, and built new homes for themselves after they bulldozed yours? What would I do that the Palestinians aren't doing? I really can't come up with an answer.

The thing I can't wrap my head around is the settlements. What would you do if somebody forced youout of your home, shipped you off to some ghetto, and built new homes for themselves after they bulldozed yours? What would I do that the Palestinians aren't doing? I really can't come up with an answer.

The thing I can't wrap my head around is the settlements. What would you do if somebody forced youout of your home, shipped you off to some ghetto, and built new homes for themselves after they bulldozed yours? What would I do that the Palestinians aren't doing? I really can't come up with an answer.

Just keep in mind there was money to build real towns. But it got stolen by the warlord contingent. I can't blame Israel alone for the ghettos. relocation's? Absolutely. The ghettos and dismal day to day? Not so much.

The thing I can't wrap my head around is the settlements. What would you do if somebody forced youout of your home, shipped you off to some ghetto, and built new homes for themselves after they bulldozed yours? What would I do that the Palestinians aren't doing? I really can't come up with an answer.

something that would ultimately make life better for them instead of continuing to do things that lead to things getting worse

Venerating, no. But I don't think he would have kept failing like the many CEOs of Hostess did. He either would have set things to right or liquidated years ago.

Seriously, you don't have to carry water for that guy one more minute. He was never worthy of you in the first place. He and his family and their dancing horse are going to live more than happily ever after...stand down already.

In real life, actually, Mitt Romney probably would have done a total reorg of the Hostess assets, and would have called them grossly mismanaged.

He would have paid Bain a huge management fee out of company assets, then paid dividends to himself and the other investors, then cried to the court that there simply wasn't any money to cover pension obligations and could the Pension Guarantee Board pay it for them...

He'd walk away flush, and anybody who complained Ann would say "you people are just jealous."

Venerating, no. But I don't think he would have kept failing like the many CEOs of Hostess did. He either would have set things to right or liquidated years ago.

Way late, but...

An up because I think you are correct even though I would argue the the solution is incorrect... IOW, I think your analysis of his likely course of action is accurate but I also believe that there are many better long term solutions that could have been tried not the least of which would have been a worker buyout.