So, it is possible for god to save people from dying, then, but he chooses not to in the vast majority of cases. Parents begging god to save their sick children, kids begging god to save their parents, distraught friends, husbands, wives begging god to save their loved ones. And god says, what? "Not yet." "Not now." "Not today."

With God all things are possible, so yes, he could save everyone from dying, but he chooses not to in, for all practical purposes, all cases. This is one of the "rules of the game" that accompanies the fall of man. God designed Adam and Even to live forever, but they ushered in death for all of mankind by eating the forbidden fruit. We all must therefore deal with death as a result of our fallen nature. (Except for Enoch and Elijah for some reason, but that's why I said for all practical purposes above.) What's more important, I think, to recognize is that physical death isn't the end anyway, so it shouldn't sadden us that God doesn't save everyone from physically dying. Those souls still exist somewhere.

God used up his power on these two? Who are you counting, btw? I count three... gotta add jeezus, since all he had was a crappy easter weekend then floated up to heaven.

No, again, he could save everyone from dying (see above for the same argument). I'm counting Enoch and Elijah, as mentioned above. Jesus is recorded as physically dying, obviously, and then resurrecting. But he did die first.

...If there is a god, this is the future he planned for us. So if he actually is real, he would have a hard time getting any worshipping out of me anyway. If all he does is sit back and watch things that he could easily prevent, then screw him. ...I don't understand the appeal.

No, God didn't plan this future for us. As mentioned above, he designed us to live forever, but we willfully rebelled and fell. So now we're in a fallen state. He didn't want us to abuse our free will like that and live this way (in which we grow old and die).

Your understanding of the appeal (or lack thereof) of an afterlife obviously does not determine whether an afterlife exists.

...But the very least he could do, it seems, is to at least alleviate some of the agony which comes with many causes of death....But the verses about the sparrows and lillies of the field do imply that he knows each of us down to every hair on our heads and cares for the least of us. ...ut what of people who endure lifelong agony?...But we DO see unbearable trials in this world....And if they lose their faith, is salvation lost as well? Are they now headed for everlasting torment on top of what they suffered in their earthly life?...

Of course, God could do a lot of things, including alleviating suffering. That boils down to the whole point of the site and my user name: I have no idea why God does some things and refrains from doing other things. It doesn't bother me in the least. It's kind of like when my parents would have a petty argument, and my mom would turn to me in frustration over something my dad may have done or failed to do and ask "Why does Dad [fill in the blank]?!" I would also have to say, "I have no idea why he does anything. You'd have to ask him."

Yes, God is omniscient, so he knows all the sparrows and lilies. He also knows the hairs on our heads, etc. That doesn't mean he's all-loving.

Again, I don't know why God presently allows lifelong agony and unbearable trials any more than I know why he allowed Job to endure so much suffering, for example. But he allowed it, and he's omniscient and wise, and I trust him.

Only God knows if a person is saved or lost. And only God knows if hell really is a place of everlasting torment (and if so what type of torment).

Logged

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

God used up his power on these two? Who are you counting, btw? I count three... gotta add jeezus, since all he had was a crappy easter weekend then floated up to heaven.

No, again, he could save everyone from dying (see above for the same argument). I'm counting Enoch and Elijah, as mentioned above. Jesus is recorded as physically dying, obviously, and then resurrecting. But he did die first.

If someone immortal gives their life for you and comes back to life a few hours later... what kind of sacrifice was that? Can't be both alive and a sacrifice... pick one.

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

If someone immortal gives their life for you and comes back to life a few hours later... what kind of sacrifice was that? Can't be both alive and a sacrifice... pick one.

False dichotomy. We all have souls and will continue to live after physical death anyway. Jesus was obviously a special case as an example of things to come, so he rose first, and many others rose with him. Not only did Jesus die, he also voluntarily took the punishments leading up to and including the flogging and crucifixion, even though he didn't deserve them, and even though they occurred before his physical death.

Jesus was obviously a special case as an example of things to come, so he rose first, and many others rose with him.

According to both the OT and NT Jesus did not rise first. Apparently it was not uncommon. Don't you know your bible?

On a more practical note, since this thread deals with dementia, it might be useful to know that learning languages reduces the effects of dementia and it has been recommended that all children learn languages in school. When someone in your family retires, get them onto learning languages as a hobby. It should help them and everyone around them.

According to both the OT and NT Jesus did not rise first. Apparently it was not uncommon. Don't you know your bible?

On a more practical note, since this thread deals with dementia, it might be useful to know that learning languages reduces the effects of dementia and it has been recommended that all children learn languages in school. When someone in your family retires, get them onto learning languages as a hobby. It should help them and everyone around them.

In what sense are you using the term rising then, might I ask? Jesus led the captives from their captivity, and that is the sense in which I am using it.

That's cool, I didn't know that before. Spanish and Italian were always my favorite classes in school. I still strive to improve both to this day. Maybe someday I'll have the time to start learning French and Portuguese too!

Logged

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

BTW my MIL's funeral service is this weekend. I am sure it will be fine, but if someone tries to inject any religion into it, I will be pissed. The woman was not religious!

When I die, I swear I will come back and haunt anyone who does any religious crap at my funeral. I will specifically become a restless spirit to do it. If I get the chance, I will make that very clear before I die, so the religious folks will know they are on notice for the hauntin'.

According to both the OT and NT Jesus did not rise first. Apparently it was not uncommon. Don't you know your bible?

On a more practical note, since this thread deals with dementia, it might be useful to know that learning languages reduces the effects of dementia and it has been recommended that all children learn languages in school. When someone in your family retires, get them onto learning languages as a hobby. It should help them and everyone around them.

In what sense are you using the term rising then, might I ask? Jesus led the captives from their captivity, and that is the sense in which I am using it.

That's cool, I didn't know that before. Spanish and Italian were always my favorite classes in school. I still strive to improve both to this day. Maybe someday I'll have the time to start learning French and Portuguese too!

I was using the term "rise" in the usual sense of allegedly dead then allegedly alive.

BTW my MIL's funeral service is this weekend. I am sure it will be fine, but if someone tries to inject any religion into it, I will be pissed. The woman was not religious!

When I die, I swear I will come back and haunt anyone who does any religious crap at my funeral. I will specifically become a restless spirit to do it. If I get the chance, I will make that very clear before I die, so the religious folks will know they are on notice for the hauntin'.

Sorry for your loss. Unless you hated her. Just kidding (I hope). I'm as Christian as they come (I think), and funerals are usually really weird. Frankly, according to the Bible anyway, there's nothing they could do to change her eternal fate anyway. What's done is done.

And I know you're probably only speaking in jest, but do you believe in an afterlife or not?

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"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

...If there is a god, this is the future he planned for us. So if he actually is real, he would have a hard time getting any worshipping out of me anyway. If all he does is sit back and watch things that he could easily prevent, then screw him. ...I don't understand the appeal.

No, God didn't plan this future for us. As mentioned above, he designed us to live forever, but we willfully rebelled and fell. So now we're in a fallen state. He didn't want us to abuse our free will like that and live this way (in which we grow old and die).

Your understanding of the appeal (or lack thereof) of an afterlife obviously does not determine whether an afterlife exists.

Let me get this straight. He didn't plan our future, but he designed us to live forever, which means he planned our future, but we rebelled, something no decent, self-respecting omnipotent being could ever foresee, and then he decided to be peeved at each and every one of us rather than just the two naïve waifs that he couldn't explain things to very well in the first place. And he places incredible import on free will, and no importance to anything else, like pain, suffering, misunderstandings, squabbles, jaywalking, etc.

The free will thing is so cute. First he condemns us to a life of sin because of something someone else did, then he gets all excited about free will, something that is apparently hard for a sinner to deal with, since most of us are so busy disobeying the ten commandments and stuff. Every day, for instance, I get up and go over to my neighbors house and covet it. But I can't help myself. I was born this way. Except I have free will. But not free will not be be born a sinner. Though there is a get out of jail card I could use, if I didn't mind lying to myself about what is true. Luckily, said get out of jail card is not necessary, because there is no real way to be saved, since the guy doesn't exist int he first place.

And the guy not existing in the first place is exactly why my feeling on the issue are moot. There is no afterlife, so no matter what I want for a dead me in the future, I can't have it. Unless I want nothing. Then I'll be okay. But you're right. Even if I wanted a wonderful afterlife, it wouldn't' matter, because whatever is, is. Or, in this case, whatever isn't , isn't.

BTW my MIL's funeral service is this weekend. I am sure it will be fine, but if someone tries to inject any religion into it, I will be pissed. The woman was not religious!

When I die, I swear I will come back and haunt anyone who does any religious crap at my funeral. I will specifically become a restless spirit to do it. If I get the chance, I will make that very clear before I die, so the religious folks will know they are on notice for the hauntin'.

Sorry for your loss. Unless you hated her. Just kidding (I hope). I'm as Christian as they come (I think), and funerals are usually really weird. Frankly, according to the Bible anyway, there's nothing they could do to change her eternal fate anyway. What's done is done.

And I know you're probably only speaking in jest, but do you believe in an afterlife or not?

No, I don't believe in any afterlife, because there is no evidence of it. Dead, as far as anyone can demonstrate, is dead. And I don't mean, he was in a coma and then revived, or her heart stopped for five minutes and was then started up again by paramedics. I mean brain flat-lined, heart not functioning, not breathing, all systems no, dead parrot dead. Recycled into elements, that's all she wrote. Nobody comes back after that.

If someone immortal gives their life for you and comes back to life a few hours later... what kind of sacrifice was that? Can't be both alive and a sacrifice... pick one.

False dichotomy. We all have souls and will continue to live after physical death anyway. Jesus was obviously a special case as an example of things to come, so he rose first, and many others rose with him. Not only did Jesus die, he also voluntarily took the punishments leading up to and including the flogging and crucifixion, even though he didn't deserve them, and even though they occurred before his physical death.

If he was still dead... sacrificed. If he's alive, not a sacrifice. What's the false dichotomy - the appeal to magic was left out? Ok, you got me... Can you tell me where my soul is, btw? Is it in my uvula?Look, I was a xian for 35 years, so I know the stories, you don't need to preach to me - just present the facts as you see them - I'm well aware JC had a rough weekend, although nothing like some who have died tragic, painful deaths (even those crucified).

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

No, I don't believe in any afterlife, because there is no evidence of it. Dead, as far as anyone can demonstrate, is dead. And I don't mean, he was in a coma and then revived, or her heart stopped for five minutes and was then started up again by paramedics. I mean brain flat-lined, heart not functioning, not breathing, all systems no, dead parrot dead. Recycled into elements, that's all she wrote. Nobody comes back after that.

If he was still dead... sacrificed. If he's alive, not a sacrifice. What's the false dichotomy - the appeal to magic was left out? Ok, you got me... Can you tell me where my soul is, btw? Is it in my uvula?Look, I was a xian for 35 years, so I know the stories, you don't need to preach to me - just present the facts as you see them - I'm well aware JC had a rough weekend, although nothing like some who have died tragic, painful deaths (even those crucified).

Let me get this straight. He didn't plan our future, but he designed us to live forever, which means he planned our future, but we rebelled, something no decent, self-respecting omnipotent being could ever foresee...[H]e condemns us to a life of sin because of something someone else did...

He planed a future for us. He didn't plan this one. This is not the one he wanted for us. The one he planned was much better. In fact, it was perfect. This is the one we chose for ourselves. He did know in advance it would happen this way, but he saw fit to create us anyway.

He didn't condemn us to a life of sin. We condemned ourselves. No one is sinless. You've sinned. I've sinned. We've all sinned.

Logged

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

If God is the creator of all that exists, he most certainly IS the proximate cause.

And I gotta say, for someone with a law degree I'm quite surprised to read this, written by you: death exists because we as mankind are fallen. That's one of those rules of the game God almost never breaks.

Either he intervenes or he doesn't. Either he follows the rules or he doesn't. And if he sometimes doesn't, which you indicate is the case with that remark, then what is the purpose of rules in the first place, if they can be ignored at will - regardless of who is doing the ignoring?

That's some fancy double-think you got going on there in that remark.

I say it that way because the Bible records two people who did not physically die.

Oh, so you did miss the point.

Let's try again - you are "talking out both side of your mouth". Are you familiar with that phrase? I certainly hope so because you are doing it all over this forum, and it's going to catch up with you sooner or later. I'm seeing it in every discussion you are participating in.

idontknow is a fine screen name - but you sure are making a lot of claims for someone who chose that name to represent him or herself.

And you never addressed my question.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

Not sure what sort of evidence you are talking about, and I'd be interested to hear what you consider compelling.

Personally, though, while I generally tend to subscribe more to the "dead is dead" camp, there are times that I feel more drawn toward the "afterlife" side...and during those times, the philosophy which resonates far more strongly with me is that of reincarnation.

Neither the heaven/hell side nor the reincarnation side has anything like irrefutable evidence to back up their ideas, but whereas all we have from people who claim near death experiences are anecdotal "visions", there are some pretty darn compelling stories from those who claim to have been reborn which, though none so far has actually been clear and correct enough in every detail to provide actual proof, do offer some fairly amazing coincidences.

Of course, coincidence, bias, expectation, etc, all have a huge impact on how any event is perceived, but at least when you are dealing with reincarnation stories, you have actual, concrete, testable details to focus on. You can lay out all the coincidences, all the hits and misses, and make a decision as to whether you believe based on those. Near death experiences, on the other hand, don't typically give us anything other than the same type of bright light/feeling of peace/seeing loved ones who have already passed which the mind is probably already programmed with. Hardly surprising. Oh, and by the way, the experiences of those who have a completely different expectation of the afterlife is apt to have more imagery that THEY are familiar with. So which is the true vision? One? Both? Neither?

So, basically, what sort of evidence ARE you talking about here? And what makes it better than evidence for any number of other beliefs?

Not sure what sort of evidence you are talking about, and I'd be interested to hear what you consider compelling. ...Neither the heaven/hell side nor the reincarnation side has anything like irrefutable [emphasis added] evidence to back up their ideas...Oh, and by the way, the experiences of those who have a completely different expectation of the afterlife is apt to have more imagery that THEY are familiar with. So which is the true vision? One? Both? Neither?

So, basically, what sort of evidence ARE you talking about here? And what makes it better than evidence for any number of other beliefs?

The Bible is evidence. Testimonies of Christians is evidence. The existence of an orderly world and universe is evidence. In law we'd say it's an issue of credibility not admissibility. I added the emphasis to the word irrefutable in your post because this is a recurring theme I've noticed among people with whom I've had similar discussions. Don't conflate evidence and conclusive proof. They are not the same thing, nor need they be.

If you're asking for irrefutable evidence, I can't give you any, just like you can't give me irrefutable evidence that God does not exist. You can give me evidence in the form of arguments presented on this site and elsewhere generally pertaining to the problem of evil, etc. And I can give you evidence in the form of historical writings and intelligent design in nature and personal accounts of many thousands of people who claim to have had direct revelations, visions, dreams, etc. In both situations, you and I are basically the juries of our own lives. We chose which stories, which evidence, to believe.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider what you meant to say when you said evidence and then when you said irrefutable evidence.

Logged

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

If God is the creator of all that exists, he most certainly IS the proximate cause.

And I gotta say, for someone with a law degree I'm quite surprised to read this, written by you: death exists because we as mankind are fallen. That's one of those rules of the game God almost never breaks.

Either he intervenes or he doesn't. Either he follows the rules or he doesn't. And if he sometimes doesn't, which you indicate is the case with that remark, then what is the purpose of rules in the first place, if they can be ignored at will - regardless of who is doing the ignoring?

That's some fancy double-think you got going on there in that remark.

I say it that way because the Bible records two people who did not physically die.

Oh, so you did miss the point.

Let's try again - you are "talking out both side of your mouth". Are you familiar with that phrase? I certainly hope so because you are doing it all over this forum, and it's going to catch up with you sooner or later. I'm seeing it in every discussion you are participating in.

idontknow is a fine screen name - but you sure are making a lot of claims for someone who chose that name to represent him or herself.

And you never addressed my question.

Let me try to unpack the above quote, as it goes back and forth quite a bit. I apologize if I failed to address your question. It is never my intent to intentionally sidestep a question. Just so we're clear, the question is: why does God create rules if he's going to break them every now and then? Right?

My first answer, which I think is not at all inconsistent with what I've been saying elsewhere on this site, is indeed reflected in my user name: I rarely know why God does anything or fails to do something. We can sit here asking why questions all day long, and whatever you or I say will often be mere speculation unless, at least from my point of view, the Bible specifically says why for a particular act or omission by God. Having gotten that preface out of the way, I trust you to understand why it is not talking out of both sides of my mouth to go ahead and speculate anyways. I find it an interesting topic of discussion, and so do many posters on this site apparently. I am not here to badmouth anyone or convert anyone, only to contribute my point of view to the discussion. A lot of the time, that will necessarily involve speculation. If you want to refer to my speculation as me making "claims" that will "catch up with me," well, I don't think you'll be any more satisfied with this post than any of my others. I just think that's a funny spin you're putting on it.

Rules, whether divine or man made, sometimes have exceptions. That's just a part of life, and God operates in a similar manner, according to the Bible. That doesn't mean we toss out all the rules because there are exceptions. It doesn't mean the rules serve no purpose because there are exceptions. Considering there have been billions of people in this world, two people that God allowed to bypass bodily death is a pretty infinitesimally small percentage. This is not one of those rules where the exception is really overtaking the rule and becoming the rule.

To recap on this point: the general rule is that everyone dies. There have been two exceptions to that rule. The rule is still incredibly strong and will in all likelihood apply to everyone alive today.

The same principle applies to divine intervention (this part comes from my dispensationalist beliefs): the general rule is that God does not intervene physically in the world, but there have been several historical eras of human history in which he intervened more frequently and more noticeably. The current era appears to be one of mostly nonintervention. Another era of intervention is coming in the future, though, according to the Bible, with the Rapture, Great Tribulation, Second Coming of Christ, and Millennial Reign all yet to take place.

Logged

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

To recap on this point: the general rule is that everyone dies. There have been two exceptions to that rule. The rule is still incredibly strong and will in all likelihood apply to everyone alive today.

There is no such "exceptions" of human death, every human, ever, will die eventually, it is inevitable.

The same principle applies to divine intervention (this part comes from my dispensationalist beliefs): the general rule is that God does not intervene physically in the world, but there have been several historical eras of human history in which he intervened more frequently and more noticeably.

Why the hell does he not intervene physically?The fact that he does not intervene, even to do good things makes him seem *gosh*, non existent.

Rules, whether divine or man made, sometimes have exceptions. That's just a part of life, and God operates in a similar manner, according to the Bible. That doesn't mean we toss out all the rules because there are exceptions. It doesn't mean the rules serve no purpose because there are exceptions. Considering there have been billions of people in this world, two people that God allowed to bypass bodily death is a pretty infinitesimally small percentage. This is not one of those rules where the exception is really overtaking the rule and becoming the rule.

Sure, in life there is exceptions...But there is also things that are literally impossible to do, as in 0/1 chance of doing so.Cheating death is one of them.

Even the water hydra, in its immortal glory, dies eventually.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

God exists, and you shouldn't let even the most emotionally traumatic moments in your life persuade you that he doesn't love you, care about you, and want to spend all of eternity with you, blessing you with abundant joy, indeed rejoined with your dad and sister once again.

Please don't cheapen words like love and care in this way. I had, and have, many real friends and family you demonstrated their love and care on a regular basis. Who actually do and did things for me to see me through, even when it was a strain on their time and on more tangible resources. This "god" you claim loves me, cares about me, has infinite resource and no barriers to demonstrating that resource - and chose to do nothing, as he continues, day by day, to do nothing to show that love and care.

So I repeat - don't cheapen the efforts of those who DO, by claiming that some creature who does nothing is displaying the same behaviours, because it demonstrably isn't so.

(in my sisters case) there were very definite prayers being said on her behalf, that he specifically chose to ignore. A being that has the ability to act, is requested to act, and has a record of acting, is a very definite proximate cause. He is as responsible as would have been a doctor with the skills to operate, but who stood by and ignored the pleas to do anything....who the day before, and the day after, had operated on others. So, very definitely, Yahweh is the proximate cause.

The vast majority of American jurisdictions would find Phelps not liable, because he had no duty to act. Phelps is not the proximate cause. But wouldn't Phelps rightfully be considered an enormous ass even if he escapes legal consequences? Pretty much. Sooner or later, some way or another, your dad and sister both would have died the child would still have drowned.

Good point. If we consider Phelps to be an enormous ass, then we must consider Yahweh to be just as big an ass, because your point is "we all die anyway, which is a Good Thing". So in your little scenario, we must applaud Phelps for his inaction, as he sped that child to heaven.

The enormous asses, in your screwed up world, are the nurses and firefighters, the people who intervene when they see people getting beaten, the organisations who ship food to the starving, ANYONE who takes action to prolong life. Because everyone dies anyway, and death is good (provided you've chosen the correct mythology).

Sorry IDK - you can't say Phelps is an ass, and let Yahweh off the hook - and if Yahweh is good for not acting, then firefighters and nurses are swine.

But bodily death isn't the end, according to Scripture. Your dad and sister now live in perfect bodies, and they will never suffer again.

Ah, I see. So Yahweh ensures that Christians always die when they are in life-threatening situations. Thanks for clearing that up. By that logic, the best thing I can do for Christians would be to shoot them in the head - after all, they will die anyway, right? This life is " infinitesimally small, immeasurable really". Send me your address, I'll come help you on to the next life - this one is pretty pointless, as you say.

It's not that he can't be bothered at the moment but that he's waiting for everyone who will be saved to be saved. If the Second Coming of Christ occurred, for example, in the Dark Ages, then neither you nor I nor anyone we personally know would have ever lived. There have been millions, perhaps billions of people since the Dark Ages come to be saved. And so the evil that exists in the world is outweighed by those souls that have been saved, because it increases the number of people in heaven.

So….what are you saying? There are a whole load of souls floating around somewhere waiting to be born, and god can't sort the world out because he has to wait to see how those souls will turn out? That HAS to be the case - that there is a finite number of souls - otherwise we'll just keep on reproducing and god will keep pinching out more souls to plop into the bodies. An endless possibility of souls means this world will forever be a place of evil.

So "limited souls" then. But here's the rub: not every soul gets the same chance in life. The soul dumped into a Bible Belt body in a good Christian family gets a far better chance of salvation then the one dumped into a poor Muslim family in Iran. "Don't conflate the plan with proximate cause", you bleat - but, again, your god IS the proximate cause. By deciding where to plop all those souls, he effectively decided which get saved, and which do not.

Your theology is a mess, quite frankly, I'm not surprised you dodge points like this:

My maternal grandmother has dementia, and she's in a pitiful state currently. God is allowing it.

Yes. On a daily basis. Proximate cause, no matter how you wish to deny it.

Your grandmother, my mother. Every day, your god thinks "hmm….call them home to the inevitable glory than awaits them, or let them live to suffer another day of fear and anguish?" And every day, he decided to let them suffer a bit more. Praise god.

Your ultimate reaction seems to stem from God's inaction. That is, you seem to be most hostile to the idea of God because if he exists he hasn't done enough to ease or reverse the suffering you and your family have endured.

Yeah, that's right. I only care about my own family. You sleep easier thinking that.

If you're asking for irrefutable evidence, I can't give you any, just like you can't give me irrefutable evidence that God does not exist. You can give me evidence in the form of arguments presented on this site and elsewhere generally pertaining to the problem of evil, etc. And I can give you evidence in the form of historical writings and intelligent design in nature and personal accounts of many thousands of people who claim to have had direct revelations, visions, dreams, etc. In both situations, you and I are basically the juries of our own lives. We chose which stories, which evidence, to believe.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider what you meant to say when you said evidence and then when you said irrefutable evidence.

Well, yes. That's really all any of us can do, I guess. And you are right about the irrefutable thing; one can't prove a negative, and neither can anyone prove an alternate scenario to the Christian one when it comes to an afterlife, so we really are stuck with weighing the evidence and making a decision from there.

But given that, and the fact that any evidence for Christianity specifically being the "answer" is tenuous at best, and dependent on highly subjective interpretation and emotion, it would seem the height of arrogance for any hypothetical supreme being to punish anyone for coming to the wrong conclusion when it would be the work of less than a moment for him to offer actual evidence. I don't buy the faith vs free will argument on why he can't, as there is nothing which forces anyone to worship something just because they have proof it exists.

And, as I said before, the anecdotal evidence for reincarnation seems stronger to me than that for heaven, since there are more verifiable things involved. Not saying I believe in that; there are still way too many holes in that theory as well, and "dead is dead" really seems to make the most sense, given all we know...but it certainly strikes me as more reasonable than Christianity's "once shot at getting it right, then eternal bliss or eternal torture" scenario.

He planed a future for us. He didn't plan this one. This is not the one he wanted for us. The one he planned was much better. In fact, it was perfect. This is the one we chose for ourselves. He did know in advance it would happen this way, but he saw fit to create us anyway.

So god's will was not done. Huh. Imagine that. How is that possible?

And what kind of a god wants things one way and then makes them to turn out another? Why would he make things knowing it would result in tremendous suffering and a substantial portion of his creation being tortured forever?

@idontknow in reply 162 - thank you for responding. I'm sorry that you think the "spin" I'm putting on your words is "funny", but it what I observed, and commented on. It appears that I am not the only one who sees it given the responses that followed your reply. And as I predicted, it caught up with you - do you understand what I was referring to now?

You state that you don't know then you proceed to tell us what you just said you don't know. Don't misunderstand my interest, you're not being cyber-stalked so much as you are posting a lot, and newbies tend to get a lot of attention here. I noticed a lot of your posts in threads I'm following yesterday, and simply wanted to point out this ongoing habit you seem to have.

Best of luck - you are under no obligation to agree with anyone here but that goes both ways. Work on the double-think stuff and these conversations will be much more productive, for all parties involved.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

If someone immortal gives their life for you and comes back to life a few hours later... what kind of sacrifice was that? Can't be both alive and a sacrifice... pick one.

False dichotomy. We all have souls and will continue to live after physical death anyway. Jesus was obviously a special case as an example of things to come, so he rose first, and many others rose with him. Not only did Jesus die, he also voluntarily took the punishments leading up to and including the flogging and crucifixion, even though he didn't deserve them, and even though they occurred before his physical death.

So he had a crappy three day weekend for your sins.

Big whup.

Sacrifice yes. Minor compared to every Allied Soldier who fought in World War II. Even the ones who didn't die or were injured had it a lot worse than a crappy three day weekend.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Heck, he knew he would not die anyway, so his sacrifice is as bad as myself dying for someone...then coming back to life because im apparently omnipotent...Better than that, i died for something that i caused in the first place, and i knew it was going to happen because i know everything.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

I don't buy the faith vs free will argument on why he can't, as there is nothing which forces anyone to worship something just because they have proof it exists.

Even the mythological stories in the Bible itself have people not following the rules after experiencing unambiguous miracle first hand.

So, there is no merit in the freewill requires a hidden god argument. It doesn't even hold up in their own silly stories.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

If you're asking for irrefutable evidence, I can't give you any, just like you can't give me irrefutable evidence that God does not exist.

That depends on your definition of god. If you mean the god of Jesus as defined by the OT, then yes there is a huge amount of irrefutable evidence that he does not exist. Your reaction to the evidence would be emotional, to turn off your brain to avoid it, and conjure up fantasy reasons to deny it.

It is amusing how people have to shrink down their god's powers to almost nothing, while at the same time claiming that he created the entire universe....Ya see, god is not actually omnipotent, and he is not really perfect.

A god would not even have to be perfectly good or all-powerful. He only has to be a bit more powerful than humans and basically nice, like Superman. He would not have to help everyone in all circumstances. He could just help his own believers, or just babies and children. People would still b!tch and moan about him, but at least everyone would know for a fact that he was real. then everyone would be able to decide whether a partial god like that was worthy of worship or not.

A god that claims to be good and powerful, but does nothing to help when his believers are suffering and in trouble might as well be bad and helpless. Or might as well be non-existent.