Between the current intense transits and the ongoing degradation of the economic and political reality of the USA, it might be a good time to have a discussion about the USA chart and where the country is going. I’ve had several conversations about this recently with astrology friends and they involved some deep and intense thoughts.

To start, here is the USA chart that most astrologers who practice JWG Evolutionary Astrology use. (The most commonly used USA chart is the Sibley chart, with ascendant at 12 Sag and a second house Pluto. However Jeffrey always used the chart that has ascendant at 7 Gemini, giving a 9th house Pluto. He felt this chart best symbolized the structure and nature of the USA, past and present).

and here is the chart of the current transits

On New Year’s Day in 2007 (prior to the financial crisis) I had a visionary experience in which it was made clear to me that “everything you have known is now over”. At that time Pluto was at 27 Sag. The gist of what was shown to me was that although everything was still going on, in the external, pretty much as it had been for a long time, behind the scenes the energies from which the external manifests had completely shifted. That there was not much yet on the outside that demonstrated this, but those external changes were not long off. That the biggest issue was 90% of people didn’t have the slightest clue any of this was going on.

This was one year before Pluto’s first entrance into Capricorn. Over the year 2007 I watched the external and saw increasing validity that what I’d been shown was real, watching things crumbling apart, week by week. When Pluto entered Capricorn this started to accelerate. By then the financial crisis had begun.

Obviously, since that time this has continued accelerating. The initial reaction of most was “what can be done to get back to where it was before”. In political and economic terms, the attempts were to “reignite the housing bubble”, to get home prices back to where they had been (which were unsustainable and based on nothing but hot air), which would then return all the paper wealth that had disappeared, saving the homeowners and even more the banks.

In astro terms, bubbles would be associated with Jupiter/Sag – expansion. We’d just come out of 14 years of Pluto in Sag. Trying to reignite a Jupiterian bubble with Pluto in Capricorn (Saturn) is not going to work very well, as our leaders have slowly been discovering. The time for all that is over.

To me what is happening with Pluto in Cap is a complete crumbling of all existing structures (Capricorn) that have outlived their evolutionary usefulness. Pluto just removes what is no longer relevant, ready or nor, like it or not.

Of course there are the few who have benefited highly from the way things have been. Like a giant poker game where a few of the players have won most of the chips on the table – sitting there with gigantic piles of chips while others find their pile of chips smaller and smaller. And these particular winners don’t mind cheating when necessary to sustain their winnings.

Now, the natural time for all this is pretty much over – that would be the evolutionary intent, to return to the natural principles of caring sharing inclusion, the strong taking care of the weak, etc. Obviously that is not the main direction things are going, quite the opposite in fact, with the strong preying on the weak, to take ever more of what “the little people” (a phrase that is a direct quote from the chairman of BP Oil) have and add it to the winnings of the big time players.

As the natural limits of what is possible on earth increasingly present themselves, we will see the strong increasingly dominate the weak, using all sorts of patriotic and humanitarian sounding rationalizations for doing so, that boil down to taking what is yours to advance myself. I recently read that to provide the modern Western lifestyle for all the people on Earth who increasingly want it (which increasingly includes the billion each in India and China), would take 5.4 planet Earth’s to have enough of the necessary raw energy and resources to make that possible.

Obviously it is impossible to have 5.4 planet earths. Thus the bottom line is the direction of the modern world is just unsustainable. And yet, the major nations on earth continually recommit themselves to just that, to making this expansion of consumption (“progress”) the stated aims of the modern countries on the planet. As is mathematically impossible (it would take 5.4 earths to do so), the world is setting itself up with goals that are either delusional or insane, or perhaps both. And yet, that is where the global leadership is taking us.

Realistically, what will happen is the people in countries that have always known prosperity will elect leaders who promise the continuation of this prosperity. To remain in power they will have to deliver it (while lying their heads off). The only way this will increasingly be possible is for the strong to take resources from the weak, as in Dick Cheney and his maps of oil wells in Iraq back in 2001, and then fighting the great humanitarian war to “liberate the Middle East from tyranny”, when it seems likely the real intent was to liberate Iraq from its oil, that in the long run it would be cheaper to take over the country than to buy their oil at increasing market prices. Unfortunately that hasn't worked out as planned.

During the 2000’s under Bush/Cheney, millions of good paying US jobs were permanently exported to China. In the US there are now 5 people looking for a job for every available job. In a situation like that, jobs go to the lowest bidder, further lowering the standard of living in the USA for “the little people”. Meanwhile the annual amount spent on military expenditures in the USA is higher than the total spent on military by every other country in the world combined. Since we have now permanently exported millions of other jobs and spend the bulk of our money on the military, logic says that in the future military jobs will be the most available jobs in this country. Combined with the timing of the need to take resources from other countries to sustain the standard of living in this country, it sort of points out where this country is going. All those soldiers have to actually do something...

Why do we spend more money on military than all other countries combined? Because those who provide the goods and services the military budget is used to purchase (that is, corporations and the wealthy) have basically purchased the operating government of the USA. So much money is poured by corporations into the campaign coffers of our politicians that they basically must be bought and purchased to remain in office. Thus they vote, year after year, for military budgets that are even higher than what our military is asking for. This system is broken and there is no clear cut way to fix it. Even most of the “good guy” legislators are beholden to this system, for their own political survival.

And we can’t forget that it is our mega-banks that finance all of these purchases for all of these corporations. Just like these banks collect from merchants 2 or 3 percent on everything purchased on a credit card (the vast majority of consumer purchases these days) they also collect 2 to 5 percent interest on everything purchased by these corporations.

They have further proven there are no moral or ethical constraints on anything that they do. I get mine for me, and screw you. People and organizations of this nature are never going to voluntarily go away or change their methods of operation. And yet, all of this is unsustainable in the long run, direct violations of Natural Law. And so we are going to see the playing out of the death march of these dying corporate dinosaurs. In the end they will lose and die. But the amount of havoc they can wreak on their death marches around the planet, affecting the lives of millions and even billions of people, is quite huge. They are not going to give up without a fight. One hundred million people around the planet died in World War Two, and today there are 4 times more people on the planet than during World War Two, and the weapons are far more lethal.

This doesn’t even discuss the ramifications of Nature itself revolting against human interference with Natural Law through its technologies, especially medical technologies, that keep alive members of the human species that normally would have been culled long ago. As all life forms begin rapid mutation to sustain their very existence, starting with virus, bacteria, etc. we already see forms of these developing that are immune to our wondrous modern drugs. And this will continue. The strong will take care of themselves, leaving the weak to fend for themselves – see Africa for an example. (interestingly, China is the only major country investing heavily in Africa, by the way).

In the USA, the country’s first Pluto return occurs in 2021/2022, as Pluto reaches 27 Cap, where it was on July 4th 1776, the date of the signing of the Declaration of Independence from Great Britain. This Pluto return in Cap is going to bring on the end of the basic structure of the USA that we have known since 1776. How it will restructure no one can really say. But it will for certain not look as it presently looks, especially taking into account the ongoing fall of the USA from its present position as the world’s super power, and its currency the dollar as the world’s standard of currency.

One thing that a friend pointed out is the transit of Uranus is presently in the USA 11th house, squaring the Pluto transit in the 8th house, these symbolizing the progressive fragmentation – fracturing and traumatization – that is occurring here.

While it is OK to discuss the political and economic realities here, the main point of this discussion is to correlate them to the astro transits that are occurring, and to look into where all this may be going. These events will affect the lives of every US citizen, and because of the significant role the US plays in the global economy, changes in the US will affect everyone everywhere. Most everyone I talk to feels in their bones that things are shifting rapidly and radically. Part of what we want to discuss is how to respond to this, how to adapt and change, what are useful strategies for living through these upcoming times.

I'm very interested in this topic and would love to correlate it to astrology. What would the current transit of the South Node in Cancer and North Node in Capricorn, relative to Pluto, Saturn, and Jupiter's planetary nodes indicate? From what I picked up on the nodes, the transiting south node indicates the APPARENT problem/reality, where as the south node's ruler represents the ACTUAL problem. With the transiting south node in cancer, 2nd house I can only speculate that even though the problem of property/ housing/ families losing their jobs and homes/ the uprising of "WE BUY GOLD", etc. has appeared as the biggest problem, the USA's natal chart moon (being the current transiting s. node's ruler) is in the 10th house. So the 10th house Aquarius Moon shows the ACTUAL problem, does it not? The politicians traumatizing their own country by creating their own bubble/safety net.... Seems ridiculous that while our country is devastated and in a New Depression, the money flows to the troops and CEOs. This seems very much like a backwards(Aquarius?) approach to our country's healing.

The transiting north node shows the way: NN in 8th Capricorn with USA natal Saturn in 5th house Libra. How can we look at this?I can put a lot of words together to further correlate, but I wanted to see what you had to say, or if this is worth looking at. Thanks a lot.

Thanks for starting this thread Steve. I thought it would be helpful for our learning here to post a chart from 1930. Of course that was the last time there was such a great economic depression, worldwide- and all the devastating things that developed over the 1930's. Now Uranus is re-entering Aries and Pluto has moved 180 degrees, having recently entered a first quarter square with each other.

What I find interesting is that this square between Uranus and Pluto lasts about a decade. And so we have pretty much all of the 1930's and all of the 2010's. This process of accelerated change is just getting started.

You are right on with what you are pointing out by transits, the actual versus the apparent. Remember too that the USA'S Aquarius Moon is also conjunct IT'S NATAL LUCIFER. In essence it all boils down to the government becoming a vehicle for the Corporations to do what they want in order to maximize their profits. In essence, the USA is not only on the road to fascism, but is almost there. And because of the Corporations own the media they are able to use that for their own propaganda, and the manipulation of public perception to their advantage. In essence, these Corporations and the self appointed 'zarathustras' that run them, are trying to create a state of neo-fuedulism.

All these self appointed zarathustras of course have Pluto in Leo: the pyramid reality that Wolf spoke of. These facts are what was responsible for the almost total economic collapse of the USA, and, through extension, the entire world. In reality the USA'S economic system defined by 'Wall Street' became, and remains, a giant ponzi scheme, a casino economy. As a result of this even the European nations are now beginning to dismantle their own social systems that are structured to help normal human beings. Yet to the Corporations those social structures impact on their ability to make even more profits. So, of course, they must be dismantled. Through geodetics Uranus in now at zero Aries and beginning to move across the entire European continent. Uranus of course correlates to 'social systems' that benefit the majority, to create social systems that are 'equitable' for all concerned.

In the USA chart the Uranus transit is in Aries in the 11th, forming a progressive opposition to it's natal Saturn, squaring all the Cancer planets in the 2nd, the Pluto transit in the 8th opposing those Cancer planets and squaring the transiting Uranus. The Saturn transit is approaching a Saturn return in the 5th, and also squaring those Cancer planets, opposing the Uranus transit, and of course squaring Pluto as well. All of this in the context of a progressive Pluto return as Steve point out. If one simply looks that the transits that occurred during the Great Depression one sees of course that the Pluto transit then was in Cancer in the 2nd house and moving across those Cancer planets, and URANUS WAS IN ARIES in it's 11th House squaring all of that. The total fracturing of society of course occurred as a result. And now this same transit in reverse: Pluto in now in the 8th.

In the USA, the country’s first Pluto return occurs in 2021/2022, as Pluto reaches 27 Cap, where it was on July 4th 1776, the date of the signing of the Declaration of Independence from Great Britain. This Pluto return in Cap is going to bring on the end of the basic structure of the USA that we have known since 1776.

ALL OF THIS MADE ME THINK OF PLUTO POLARITY--CANCER--3rd HOUSE

The mega-corporate conglomerations are surely in the shadow of Leo and Capricorn and have been operating that way for a long time now. But in terms of the "little people" and those who mindfully care, wouldn't it be important for us to embrace the Pluto polarity of the US chart to actualize Pluto's highest good? In the positive expression of Cancer: nurturing, caring, protecting, healing our home--the Earth, our loved ones (hopefully that would be each other), healing...in the 3rd house--and change how we think about our home via the experiences we will collectively experiences within the environment (3rd house)?

How it will restructure no one can really say. But it will for certain not look as it presently looks, especially taking into account the ongoing fall of the USA from its present position as the world’s super power, and its currency the dollar as the world’s standard of currency.

This got me thinking to also post the chart of Pluto Return:

[note from Steve: I replaced the chart Wendy posted with this one. Hers was calculated for Washington DC. The correct location for the return is Philadelphia, which was the US capital in 1776. I am also adding, below, the synastry chart of the USA natal chart and the transits of the Pluto return. If you want to download these charts to your computer you can do so by right clicking on the chart and selecting "Save Image".]

Rising Scorpio to start off with Scorpio Moon 25 conjunct the SN in the first at 26 degrees. NN in Taurus conjunct Ceres in the 7th. Uranus in Taurus @ 11, Pluto in Capricorn @ 27 in the 4th house square to Eris @ 23. Uranus squares Saturn in Aquarius, a plus for restructuring. And of course Neptune in Pisces. Water will clearly be an issue. Capricorn opens the fourth house and Pluto trines the NN.

Most of the planets are below the horizon, so a very internal time.

The challenge is between now and then--to walk through the environmental changes and break down of systems while the manics continue to rule from their lack of consciousness (intended or not) until they finally fall.

One thing that a friend pointed out is the transit of Uranus is presently in the USA 11th house, squaring the Pluto transit in the 8th house, these symbolizing the progressive fragmentation – fracturing and traumatization – that is occurring here.

Most everyone I talk to feels in their bones that things are shifting rapidly and radically. Part of what we want to discuss is how to respond to this, how to adapt and change, what are useful strategies for living through these upcoming times.

We truly felt it in our bones here in Maryland this morning--earthquake, 3.7.

I was wide awake--really powerful energy. It was like the earth needed an adjustment and she took it. Really cleared the energy and opened hearts--though many didn't feel it?

I feel as if the natural occurrences from the Earth and the environment will bring evolving strategies from the "people" to deal with the changes, trauma, and fracturing that is occurring.

Maybe the positive side of Sag and Cap will be restored in the transition time. I feel as a conscious human being on this spiritual path, I can share my insights with the collective (unconscious/conscious) as much as possible and continue to be in my heart and grounded in my body to assist my own progress and others.

Steve, do you have thoughts about strategies based on the charts? It seems to me, as the nodes move closer to the country's Venus, we will have ample opportunity for real relating and healing, as the old paradigms and misguided values are shaken within the collective.

Another thought I had--what symbolized the grassroots movements of the sixties--Uranus and Pluto in Virgo opp Chiron. Do you see grassroots movements as a means to support the collective through these times?

Another thought I had--what symbolized the grassroots movements of the sixties--Uranus and Pluto in Virgo opp Chiron. Do you see grassroots movements as a means to support the collective through these times?

That opens up some awareness for me. The term "grass roots" really describes the nature of that conjunction- that it was a conjunction, the beginning of a cycle. Now we are going through a Crescent square and soon a first quarter square.

The Crescent square that we have been experiencing for a few years now is a yin square- correlating to Taurus. There is a growing awareness of the ways that we have been operating collectively. As I understand it, the transition from a crescent square to a first quarter square often manifests as great insecurity, as there simply isn't much awareness when it comes to what new decisions will have to be made next. The crisis in action is literally just that- what are we supposed to do now?

In the crescent phase square there is often a fear of what is soon to come, what new choices have to be made, and thus a tendency to slip back into old patterns.

I feel this square is intensifying the resistance to change from those who are truly not ready or willing to embrace it.

So I don't think of grass roots movements as a means to support the collective through these times- we have already experienced about 90 degrees of development when it comes to the collective awareness born in the 60's. The nature of the changes that are starting require a call to action in a way that we haven't yet seen in our life.

I feel called to share a dream. I may have shared this here before, or somewhere at least. A few years ago I put JWG's Uranus book under my pillow and had a dream that night:I went to a memorial park and saw a plaque that listed what happened historically when Uranus transited through the 12 signs. I was guided to read "Uranus in Aries" and saw a particular year. I saw worldwide anarchy and lack of cohesive government all around the world. Many people were seeking a leader, someone to save them. There was a lot of violent, aimless action going on. It was very sad and scary.

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One thing that a friend pointed out is the transit of Uranus is presently in the USA 11th house, squaring the Pluto transit in the 8th house, these symbolizing the progressive fragmentation – fracturing and traumatization – that is occurring here.

The initial conjunction, it seems, took place in the 4th house and then in the 5th house of the US chart. Conjunct natal Neptune in Virgo. That seems to relate to the immense environmental and social activism that was born at that time, as well as the free love/hippy consciousness. Now these squares are in the 11th and 8th- such a catalyzing aspect combined with very destabilizing houses.

The initial conjunction, it seems, took place in the 4th house and then in the 5th house of the US chart. Conjunct natal Neptune in Virgo. That seems to relate to the immense environmental and social activism that was born at that time, as well as the free love/hippy consciousness. Now these squares are in the 11th and 8th- such a catalyzing aspect combined with very destabilizing houses.

Thanks Ari--

Crescent square Pluto Uranus 8th to 11th--deep upheaval of collective psychological modus operandi via traumatic/shocking occurrences for the sake of humanity's evolution regarding issues of sustainable life and life force in general. I guess if the we weren't dealing with so much selfishness and ignorance among the governing bodies, things may flow easier?

Maybe our deep generative relationship to what's hidden will penetrate our consciousness and reveal our symbolic connectedness to all of life.

Hi, I think this is a wonderful thread and have gained much insight from reading it! I was looking at the U.S's natal chart and noticing that the transiting nodal axis of cancer/Capricorn is squaring the natal Saturn in Libra/5th house. The transiting South Node is conjunct The natal Sun in cancer/2nd house which is conjunct Jupiter and Venus. I was thinking about the progressive break down of our current social structure (transiting Pluto in Capricorn) and how this is impacting the family environment, especially regarding the current education system (Transiting nodal axis squaring saturn in Libra/5th house-South Node in cancer conjunct the Sun and Jupiter in Cancer in the 2nd house). I know that more and more teachers are being laid off, and that progressively the education system is deteriorating because of lack of funding, and that opportunities of higher eduction are only truly available to those who are wealthy (Saturn in Libra in the 5th house reflecting the inequality of the current social system in the U.S-only benifiting the wealthy). The point within this is that is seems to me that families are going to have to take charge of the situation and provide home schooling for their children to make up for what is not being taught in school at this point (Transiting nodal axis in cancer/Capricorn squaring saturn in Libra in 5th house-South node conjunct the Sun and Jupiter). Perhaps people will start to create a community where families help one another by providing community day care and education opportunities that go beyond what the traditional schools teach. the natural law of giving sharing and inclusion is reflected in saturn in Libra, and with saturn in the 5th house it reflects that there is need to create a socital structure that is equal and benefits all-not just the zarithrustas that are in power. The family environment can support this growth by the parents progressively taking charge of their personal reality and circumstances and be a model for their children of the natural principles of giving, sharing and inclusion, and of the equality of all people in general. In other words, by modeling natural principles and laws in the family environment this can become a model that impacts how our society is structured. All of these changes are coming about because of the deterioration of the social structure and evolutionary necessity to change the current social structure by aligning with natural laws (transiting south Node conjuncut the Sun and Jupiter square saturn in Libra in the 5th house). God BlessDeva

(I've not had time in the last few days to get back to this post. Will post more soon).

Hi Wendy

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This got me thinking to also post the chart of Pluto Return--chart is 2021 w/Pluto 25 degrees

Wendy, I wanted to say that the chart you posted is not the USA Pluto Return chart. In a return chart the planet that is returning is transiting the exact degree of its natal chart location. The USA chart has Pluto at 27 Cap. The chart you posted has Pluto at 25 Cap.

I think you have confused two things. You've posted a chart for July 4th. July 4th is the Solar return date and has nothing to do with the Pluto return date. According to Solar Fire there are 3 dates of USA Pluto return:using natal location of Philadelphia:Feb 20, 2022 11:52pmJul 11 2022 3:25amDec 28 2022 6:34pm

You might want to replace the original chart you posted with a revised chart, as this can be confusing to people who are learning EA. If you choose to do that, I suggest using the Feb 20 2022 date as that is the first of the returns. Just edit the chart URL you included in your post.

It would also be useful to look at a synastry chart with the USA chart in the inner wheel and the Pluto return transits in the outer wheel. I can put that one up if you like.thank youSteve

Another thing to consider for those of you living in the U.S. is the nature and integrity of the existing structures in your country called bridges, dams, highways, all the various pipelines that carry everything from oil to water, etc. Through geodetics the movement of Pluto is sweeping across your entire country that will affect all these inner structures. And that means that many of these existing structures no longer have structural integrity. Given that Pluto can correlate with intense cataclysmic events that are intended to peoples attention so that necessary structural changes are made this is a potential danger whose consequences could be very severe.

Thank you Steve for beginning this thread and thanks for all of us here contributing.

Here are some thoughts and corelations I've been thinking about looking at all of this.

USA: Land of the stolen, Home of the Proud

The USA, of course, has it’s natal pluto in the 9th Capricorn. Not just manifest destiny, but a compulsion to lay out it’s expanding “borders”, territories, and investments. The south node of Pluto at about 17 Capricorn 8th house completes the cardinal cross to Chiron Aries 11th, Saturn conjunct Juno Libra 5th, and the ruler of the north node, the Sun in Cancer in the 2nd - which is conjunct Jupiter and the north node of Jupiter.

The south node of Pluto in the 8th(capricorn) relative to pluto 9th capricorn, we see strong symbolism for our “his”story of manipulatively taking power for gain in covert and corrupt ways. This relative to the opposition to the nn ruler sun in cancer in the second, it is telling us to stop extending beyond our limits(borders) and nurture our own, to become secure in being self reliant and self contained. Also, it suggests we need to learn to survive for ourselves,...and to become secure in this. The over extended energy beyond our borders is also reflected in the Mars Gemini 1st, with Uranus (1) conjunct ascent and north node of Mars (10 Gemini). As a nation, USA has shown a curiosity and desired new experiences of discovery. Keeping this in mind relative to Pluto and it’s south node - our unconscious compulsion to investing to achieve a rise in power is fueled by the rebel attitude of desiring to be free enough to meddle where ever we are curious to explore.

Steve, you mentioned your experience on New Year’s Day of 2007. I was excited at this time because the USA’s secondary progressed Mars was just about to go retrograde, the first time we had a retrograde progressed mars. It stationed, I believe sometime in the first part of March of 2007. This stationing was at 18 libra and 42, having just passed the waning square to the south node of pluto. It hasn’t moved much of course, which tells up that our progressed mars has been conjunct our Saturn, activating this cardinal cross and in square (waxing) to the nn ruling sun, waning square to pluto sn, and opposing our chiron in aries 11th. This progressed Mars first came into orb of this in the late 1960s. In July of 1969, our sp Mars was at 11 libra 30. In 1979, our sp Mars conjucted our natal Saturn.

Basically, this has been a long time coming. My own excitement about this symbolism was that I had(and still have) hope that the current “crisis in our actions” - relative to the nn ruling sun in caner 2nd - this mars square conjunct our saturn libra 5th etc. was that it would mean the end of the USA having the energy to extend itself outside of our borders and begin to put our energy on nurturing the people on this land. Major karma relative to what the USA has believed it’s purpose is/was. USA does not have the energy to maintain that purpose any longer. We can not have security in what we have/had been receiving out of our “relationships” to other countries - saturn libra 5th waning square sn pluto 8th cap. - relative to all this. As a people, we have lost the ancient skills to survive on our own. Majority of us in USA have become over dependent on many others to survive. Who grows our food, harvests it, ships it, sells it, who made all the things we use, who brought water to our home, etc. This is in this symbolism - we are having the trigger of a crisis in what to believe, how we are going to survive - we will be forced, by evolutionary necessity, to survive on our own. Mars progressing retrograde I prayed was our fall from power and needed, yet painful crisis to bring us back to ourselves. The actual expense of health care alone attests to the polar opposite of sun cancer second in our chart. Basically, we are not evolving, we are being controlled by the past.

Relative to the coporate powers that be and the contracts to evil which these small groups and individuals have made, again we see the position of pluto relative to the cardinal cross described. Also, the sn aquarius - how can these people be so detached from their emotions? Ruled by uranus on the ascent - these corrupt folks do not play by the rules, they are tricksters - in a evil, manipulative sense the shadow of all this uranus and gemini/mars 1st energy. This country even began with two faced lies, cheating, stealing, murdering, raping, and dominating others - believing( 9th) this was somehow supported by their god(religion -9th)

Today, going back to our core symbolism here, the powers that be believe in controlling the people - this is the pluto cap 9th relative to sn aquarius 9th - waning conjunction. We have not pulled out of our old sn pluto conjunction - we are stuck with these power dominators - by control. This is also the symbolism behind the prisons in the USA. Relative to this sn ruling Uranus in gemini on the ascent, we see the divide and conquer approach - keeping the revolution at bay by splitting the critical mass into two groups - one is the imprisoned and the other is the barley scraping by...using all our energy just to survive such that we are unable to muster the sustained energy to sufficiently organize the revolution which we need. As discussed elsewhere, the random acts will not make the long term affects we so desparately need. Also, the pluto position relative to sn aquarius, ruler uranus gemini 1, the people are being controlled in their beliefs by the information, skewed presentation of it, via the media. The natal USA moon, at 18 aquarius 10, is conjuct the midheaven and, by extension, the sn neptune; also in a waxing inconjunct to neptune in virgo 5th - people are being deceived. Note also the waning square of mars gemini 1st to neptune virgo 5th - we are being triggered into a crisis of what to believe based on the information we discover for ourselves. Transiting Pluto is of course opposing our natal Jupiter Venus conjunct in the 2nd. Do the masses in the USA even know what to believe any more?Which politician, which bank, which corporation can you trust? The ulitmate truth of what the USA has been doing (natal neptune virgo 5th in yod to moon and chiron) is humiliating the people of this country because of our actions. Ultimately, we need to self reflect and make the needed adjustments to our purpose and vision.

So, kind of a rant, but I wanted to add those points to the discussion. Now, what can we do? What a great question. Our north node is in the 3rd house and in leo. Our purpose is to allow information - relative to Uranus conjunct the north node of mars and ascent, we see that so much suffering is reflected symbolically in corrupt powers denial of inventions and technology. Who killed all the technology in this country? We are driving dinosaurs for real. It’s such a sick joke, we’ve been having individuals killed in covert operations to keep the furthering of technological advances. I believe that technology can really help us to get out of our mess, if only it was fostered, if our core value was to nurture the belief in accessing the information, inventions, technology that could actually help the environment.

So, we have the divided revolutionaries and a brainwashed consenus population: hmmm....I love the idea of urban gardens, more and more people learning and acting out the survival skills of growing food and locally having our needs met.

If the masses are to “awaken” their minds from the brainwash spell, whom will they listen to? 3rd stage consensus popular icons - like Oprah. If Oprah speaks out about the prison industry, technology suppression will the people begin to change their idea of reality? I do not know, but the thought of focus on popular musicians to be bold enough to speak up about the reality of what is happening. Often, I think that it will just have to get that desperate until individuals really create an internal war - boycott ourselves - the geimini 1st everything - a fracturing of the self - the nation. The “wake up call” will be events that completely alter our daily routines. Great movements of people will only be triggered by major crisis - plague, famine, war - if we are ready to survive - every possible way to locally, as a group discover how to survive - to believe that we can form the relationships needed to shift our purpose and identity to survival via a local stable resource of ourself. Relative to nn transiting pluto 8th, we have lessons in sharing resources. The more local share networks we can create, the more we can “increase the local wealth and security”. Relative to our natal Saturn libra 5th, we have struggled to have a real equality in our sharing and purpose. We’ve swung to the librian extremes of how we depend on each other but live isolated.

With the jupiter uranus conjunction transiting our 11th house, squaring our venus jupiter, there has been a surge of new groups growing and emerging. As Steve has so clearly pointed out repeatedly, what is needed is these types of movements, to put down roots, nurture a slow and steady growth ( waning square to venus jupiter cancer 2nd). We, right now in 2011 and 2012 will see many groups, even of one, just going for it. I’m hearing these types of stories a lot right now and an exciting - surprised at the risks individuals and groups of individuals are taking following their hearts. This does bring hope, yet in all reality, we must come back to the crisis in belief - and hopefully leaps of faith - in vision on how this can sustain and progress into the future. Again, information sharing via our technologies, I believe, will be one thing that can really help us here. The uncontrollable news/media that twitter and the web are evolving into change the USA’s collective ideas. Can we make enough connections and establish the inter-connected local networks that we need before larger crisis strike. Again, bottom line of motivation and movement are linked to actual need for change. The laziness of the second house venus jupiter cancer conjunction leaves me a bit less optimistic that we will keep motivation. When Uranus actually comes into square our sun, opposing our saturn, perhaps the abrupt cut off from the funding of china and the rest of the world will force us to change our core values relative to how we survive.

Bottom line, with nn venus cancer, nn jupiter cancer sandwiching venus and jupiter all in cancer 2nd, ruler nn sun in cancer in second - we, the USA, will have to become self sufficient. Crisis will eventually trigger us to orient to what we need to survive; changing our values, possessions, and use of resources as a people. But when?

When will these corporate evil dinosaurs die? Blocking so so many progressive movements, inventions, information. Every last drop death grip is killing us - sad story of USA - can we turn this around? If when, what will the cost and loss be?

I only go back to local networks which support local resources/survival - if it comes down to a series of major ‘disasters’ which many die and the populous is totally fractured, actions out of fear could be ugly, yet if our local ( self sufficient) purpose is to share and communicate our needs - and we still can have communication networks, we can jump into radically changing the foundation of collective american lifestyle. We, the people would need to all be teachers, sharing from our own special purpose the information the group needs. The rebirth of our pluto would include a larger vision of organization of resources that is fair and liberating, not enslaving, of individuals. I’m trying to be hopeful here, but we must fall, crumble, and die before we are reborn.

Thank you all for this thread and space. It is a blessing to be here together.

The USA, of course, has it’s natal pluto in the 9th Capricorn. Not just manifest destiny, but a compulsion to lay out it’s expanding “borders”, territories, and investments.

The south node of Pluto in the 8th(capricorn) relative to pluto 9th capricorn, we see strong symbolism for our “his”story of manipulatively taking power for gain in covert and corrupt ways.

This relative to the opposition to the nn ruler sun in cancer in the second, it is telling us to stop extending beyond our limits(borders) and nurture our own, to become secure in being self reliant and self contained. Also, it suggests we need to learn to survive for ourselves,...and to become secure in this.

This is in this symbolism - we are having the trigger of a crisis in what to believe, how we are going to survive - we will be forced, by evolutionary necessity, to survive on our own.

Basically, we are not evolving, we are being controlled by the past.

Relative to the coporate powers that be and the contracts to evil which these small groups and individuals have made, again we see the position of pluto relative to the cardinal cross described. Also, the sn aquarius - how can these people be so detached from their emotions? Ruled by uranus on the ascent - these corrupt folks do not play by the rules, they are tricksters - in a evil, manipulative sense the shadow of all this uranus and gemini/mars 1st energy. This country even began with two faced lies, cheating, stealing, murdering, raping, and dominating others - believing( 9th) this was somehow supported by their god(religion -9th)

SO TRUE

Relative to this sn ruling Uranus in gemini on the ascent, we see the divide and conquer approach - keeping the revolution at bay by splitting the critical mass into two groups - one is the imprisoned and the other is the barley scraping by...using all our energy just to survive such that we are unable to muster the sustained energy to sufficiently organize the revolution which we need.

OH THIS IS GREAT INSIGHT--REVOLUTION IS DEFINITELY WHAT IS CALLED FOR BUT NOTHING SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING

As discussed elsewhere, the random acts will not make the long term affects we so desparately need. Also, the pluto position relative to sn aquarius, ruler uranus gemini 1, the people are being controlled in their beliefs by the information, skewed presentation of it, via the media.

Do the masses in the USA even know what to believe any more?

Which politician, which bank, which corporation can you trust?

The ulitmate truth of what the USA has been doing (natal neptune virgo 5th in yod to moon and chiron) is humiliating the people of this country because of our actions. Ultimately, we need to self reflect and make the needed adjustments to our purpose and vision.

Now, what can we do?

What a great question. Our north node is in the 3rd house and in leo. Our purpose is to allow information - relative to Uranus conjunct the north node of mars and ascent, we see that so much suffering is reflected symbolically in corrupt powers denial of inventions and technology. Who killed all the technology in this country? We are driving dinosaurs for real. It’s such a sick joke, we’ve been having individuals killed in covert operations to keep the furthering of technological advances. I believe that technology can really help us to get out of our mess, if only it was fostered, if our core value was to nurture the belief in accessing the information, inventions, technology that could actually help the environment.

So, we have the divided revolutionaries and a brainwashed consenus population: hmmm....I love the idea of urban gardens, more and more people learning and acting out the survival skills of growing food and locally having our needs met.

CIVIL WAR??

Great movements of people will only be triggered by major crisis - plague, famine, war - if we are ready to survive - every possible way to locally, as a group discover how to survive - to believe that we can form the relationships needed to shift our purpose and identity to survival via a local stable resource of ourself.

Relative to nn transiting pluto 8th, we have lessons in sharing resources. The more local share networks we can create, the more we can “increase the local wealth and security”. Relative to our natal Saturn libra 5th, we have struggled to have a real equality in our sharing and purpose. We’ve swung to the librian extremes of how we depend on each other but live isolated.

With the jupiter uranus conjunction transiting our 11th house, squaring our venus jupiter, there has been a surge of new groups growing and emerging. As Steve has so clearly pointed out repeatedly, what is needed is these types of movements, to put down roots, nurture a slow and steady growth ( waning square to venus jupiter cancer 2nd).

We, right now in 2011 and 2012 will see many groups, even of one, just going for it. I’m hearing these types of stories a lot right now and an exciting - surprised at the risks individuals and groups of individuals are taking following their hearts. This does bring hope, yet in all reality, we must come back to the crisis in belief - and hopefully leaps of faith - in vision on how this can sustain and progress into the future. Again, information sharing via our technologies, I believe, will be one thing that can really help us here. The uncontrollable news/media that twitter and the web are evolving into change the USA’s collective ideas. Can we make enough connections and establish the inter-connected local networks that we need before larger crisis strike.

Again, bottom line of motivation and movement are linked to actual need for change. The laziness of the second house venus jupiter cancer conjunction leaves me a bit less optimistic that we will keep motivation. When Uranus actually comes into square our sun, opposing our saturn, perhaps the abrupt cut off from the funding of china and the rest of the world will force us to change our core values relative to how we survive.

Bottom line, with nn venus cancer, nn jupiter cancer sandwiching venus and jupiter all in cancer 2nd, ruler nn sun in cancer in second - we, the USA, will have to become self sufficient. Crisis will eventually trigger us to orient to what we need to survive; changing our values, possessions, and use of resources as a people. But when?

When will these corporate evil dinosaurs die? Blocking so so many progressive movements, inventions, information. Every last drop death grip is killing us - sad story of USA - can we turn this around? If when, what will the cost and loss be?

I only go back to local networks which support local resources/survival - if it comes down to a series of major ‘disasters’ which many die and the populous is totally fractured, actions out of fear could be ugly, yet if our local ( self sufficient) purpose is to share and communicate our needs - and we still can have communication networks, we can jump into radically changing the foundation of collective american lifestyle.

We, the people would need to all be teachers, sharing from our own special purpose the information the group needs. The rebirth of our pluto would include a larger vision of organization of resources that is fair and liberating, not enslaving, of individuals.

I’m trying to be hopeful here, but we must fall, crumble, and die before we are reborn.

Godd’ess Bless,Bradley

Bradley-that was fantastic, so clear, and right on target! For sure things are going to fall apart before we embrace and care for ourselves rather than rely on the pompous patterns of gluttony and over-extension bred out of deceit and corrupt rulers.

Relative to the coporate powers that be and the contracts to evil which these small groups and individuals have made, again we see the position of pluto relative to the cardinal cross described. Also, the sn aquarius - how can these people be so detached from their emotions? Ruled by uranus on the ascent - these corrupt folks do not play by the rules, they are tricksters - in a evil, manipulative sense the shadow of all this uranus and gemini/mars 1st energy. This country even began with two faced lies, cheating, stealing, murdering, raping, and dominating others - believing( 9th) this was somehow supported by their god(religion -9th)

WELL SAID

Relative to this sn ruling Uranus in gemini on the ascent, we see the divide and conquer approach - keeping the revolution at bay by splitting the critical mass into two groups - one is the imprisoned and the other is the barley scraping by...using all our energy just to survive such that we are unable to muster the sustained energy to sufficiently organize the revolution which we need.

OH THIS IS GREAT INSIGHT--REVOLUTION IS DEFINITELY WHAT IS CALLED FOR BUT NOTHING SEEMS TO BE HAPPENINGUltimately, we need to self reflect and make the needed adjustments to our purpose and vision.

Now, what can we do?

What a great question. Our north node is in the 3rd house and in leo. Our purpose is to allow information - relative to Uranus conjunct the north node of mars and ascent, we see that so much suffering is reflected symbolically in corrupt powers denial of inventions and technology. Who killed all the technology in this country? We are driving dinosaurs for real. It’s such a sick joke, we’ve been having individuals killed in covert operations to keep the furthering of technological advances. I believe that technology can really help us to get out of our mess, if only it was fostered, if our core value was to nurture the belief in accessing the information, inventions, technology that could actually help the environment.

So, we have the divided revolutionaries and a brainwashed consenus population: hmmm....I love the idea of urban gardens, more and more people learning and acting out the survival skills of growing food and locally having our needs met.

CIVIL WAR??

Great movements of people will only be triggered by major crisis - plague, famine, war - if we are ready to survive - every possible way to locally, as a group discover how to survive - to believe that we can form the relationships needed to shift our purpose and identity to survival via a local stable resource of ourself.

Relative to nn transiting pluto 8th, we have lessons in sharing resources. The more local share networks we can create, the more we can “increase the local wealth and security”. Relative to our natal Saturn libra 5th, we have struggled to have a real equality in our sharing and purpose. We’ve swung to the librian extremes of how we depend on each other but live isolated.

Bradley-that was fantastic, so clear, and right on target! For sure things are going to fall apart before we embrace and care for ourselves rather than rely on the pompous patterns of gluttony and over-extension bred out of deceit and corrupt rulers.

The evolutionary focus on self sufficiency by focusing on life within the borders is so clear. This entire country has developed through the creation of trauma for others cultures and overly meddling outside of itself.

The evolutionary necessity of this organism called the USA seems to be to get off it's high horse and embrace the diversity of ways, to become less concerned with it's elevated vision and focus more on taking care of itself, on including other point of views and internalizing those views in a way that nurtures something truly nourishing and sustainable. (nn in leo in 3rd, ruled by Sun in Cancer in second).

That sun is the apex of a T square with Chiron and Saturn, which as Deva pointed out is being squared by the transiting nodes. Also, Pluto, Uranus, Saturn and Jupiter will all be spending their own amount of time locking in on that T square for the next number of years. From the point of view of this chart- things really are just getting started.

I've been reflecting on what Steve has been saying about accepting things as they are, not is a apathetic way at all, but in a realistic way. I realize that when I speak to a client, sometimes I will know that evolutionary cataclysms must happen based on evolutionary necessity. I will know this because their self awareness will indicate that they won't be able to attract any other kind of evolutionary experience other than something cataclysmic. Observing my own life at times in correlation to the transits at those times, I have found that to be true for myself as well.

However based on JWG's teaching, on the 4 general ways in which evolution is enacted, this period will surely bring all of them. When we are looking at such a large group of people, all at various states of consciousness- all sharing in the mass karma of the nation, as well as their own individual karma, surely we will see the wide spectrum between cataclysm and miracles.

This morning I learned of the massive flooding that happened in China. Feelings of such saddness arise in me. I'm finding that my heart is breaking open- accepting what is happening in the world, AND praying for as much grace and divine guidance as possible. I have noticed that there are two very strong "ideologies" when it comes to this transition. 1: The naive Neptunian "we're all going to be saved" which ignores the massive suffering and pain in this world that is currently present and is not going to stop any time soon. And 2 is the negative pessimistic approach that leans towards giving up and closing the heart.

There's something bittersweet about radical acceptance of what is happening and a deep opennesses to God Love. I find suffering seems to happen for me when I identify with one more than the other. They are both the truth- it's only the mind that seeks to differentiate the two from each other.

I wish to share another dream that I had not too long ago:I am traveling to see the divine mother. On the way a frail woman approaches me. I can see death in her and know that she is destined to die soon. She asks me if I can help her. I say no and I continue on my journey to the divine mother. I almost said "yes" to her- but I was able to recognize that the best thing I can do for her is just love her unconditionally and accept things as they are. When I reached the divine mother I asked her "is this woman going to die?" And mother said "Yes". Then I broke down crying and I prayed "teach me how to love."

I feel in this dream the message of discernment, acceptance of the suffering, and a deep yearning to merge with unconditional Love.