1. F: ...to, to (tell)...
M: ...how I started out with work (as a painter).
F: First, where were you born?
M: Well, I am not young, I was born in 1931.
F: ‘31?
M: Yes.
F: ‘31?
M: Yes.
F: Mm. And where?
M: I was born in Mweka.
F: There in Mweka.
M: Yes.
F: In Mweka itself or in a village (nearby)?
M: In a village, or rather, in town.
F: In town?
M: Yes.
F: In the town of Mweka.
M: Of Mweka, yes.
F: And your parents, did they have a job there?
M: No, they had no job, they farmed.
F: They farmed there?
M: Yes.
F: Mm.
M: Yes.
F: In ‘31/
M: in ’31, yes.
F: So then you lived there?
M: Yes, I lived there, I started going to school, I
finished school, and then it was...
F: ...(you finished) school at what level?
M: I finished sixth grade.
F: Sixth (grade)?
F: Primary (school)?
M: Primary...
F: ... with the missionaries there?
M: Yes, with the missionaries.
F: Mm.

2. M: So then I continued to study this work of painting.
F: At the school there?
M: Yes, at school.
F: Did they have an art school?
M: An art school, of Mweka.
F: A school of art at Mweka?
M: Yes.
F: And [pauses] that was (also run) by missionaries?
M: By missionaries, yes.
F: Also.
M: Mm.
F: Who taught you there?
M: Father Floribert.
F: Floribert.
M: Yes.
F: He is dead now?
M: He died, yes.
F: Long ago.
M: Yes.
F: And, in those days, how did you study, how did you
begin with the study of painting?
M: We began with the study like this: First we were shown mix
(lit. to stir) colors.
F: Colors.
M: Yes, how to mix colors.
F: Mm.
M: Then (the teacher) began to show us how to do
sketching.
F: Mm.
M: You go like this (he said) and we followed (his
instructions). Then, when we knew (how to do this) we began drawing.
F: Mm.
M: Yes, I studied at art school for eight months.
F: Eight months?
M: Yes.
F: That was after finishing (primary) school?
M: Yes, after finishing that other school, the one that
ended with sixth grade.
F: I see.
M: But then we went on with art school.
F: I see.
M: Yes.
F: Mm. Were there many of you?
M: Well, there were twenty of us.
F: Twenty, mm.
M: Yes.
F: And they only taught painting, or?
M: Yes, they taught painting (but) there were some who did
carving.
F: (Some) who did carving?
M: Yes, and others did weaving, like those baKuba things,
the ones that are worn on the head, like a hat.
F: I see
M: Yes. That’s what they did but we just studied painting.
F: Was this tapestry weaving?
M: Yes, tapestry.

3. F: Mm. At that time, did you sell the things that were
made?
M: Yes, we sold them.
F: To whom?
M: After finishing school I first sold (my paintings) at
the Hotel Mweka. There was a lady, Madame Mandrine[1] -- yes, that was her name – Madame Mandrine. She owned the hotel.
F: Mm.
M: Alright. So I did those paintings and sold her twenty
of them.
F: Twenty?
M: Yes. She put them up in – what is it again...
F: In...
M: In the bar.
F: I see.
M: Yes. And that she told me, I’m going to send others to Europe.
F: But what kind of paintings were they?
M: Landscapes.
F: Only landscapes?
M: Yes, just landscapes. There was no other kind among
them.
F: But when you first started out, did you follow a
certain model when you painted?
M: No, I used to follow different models.
F: Mm.
M: Mm.
F: Did you live with your parents at the time?
M: Well, at that time I was no longer with my parents.
F: I see.
M: Yes, because the parents lived...
F: They...
M: [overlapping] ...?...
F: Were they Christians?
M: Yes, yes they were.
F: They were Christians.
M: Yes, At the time they had gone to live fifteen
kilometers away and were farming.
F: I see.
M: Yes, while I stayed on in town.
F: What was their language?
M: Eh?
F: What language did they speak?
M: They spoke tshiKasai.
F: Yes, but what kind of tshiKasai?
M: What do you mean?
F: Aren’t there many kinds of tshiKasai? Which one was it?
There is tshiLuba...
M: TshiLuba, yes, tshiLuba. They spoke tshiLuba.
F: TshiLuba?
M: Yes.
F: And what was the group they belonged to? What kind of bene[2] were they?
M: They were Bakwa Kalonji.
F: Bakwa Kalonji, I see.
M: Yes.
F: Mm. Bakwa Kalonji.

4. So, when you stayed behind (after your parents moved)
this was around forty-five?
M: Yes, it was in forty-five. Yes, forty-five.
F: The war was not over yet?
M: Yes, the war was about over.
F: It was over?
M: Yes, in forty-five.
F: I see.
M: Yes. Then I left and began to move up here. In fact, I
was still quite young.[3]
F: Mm.
M: Yes, the way it was, I (first) lived in –what was it
again? – in Mwe(ka), or rather in Kamina.
F: Kamina?
M: Yes, that was when I went on to paint my pictures and
sell them.
F: But when you came to Kamina where did you stay? Did you
have relatives there?
M: Yes, I had relatives in Kamina, an older sibling, the
one (born) before me.
F: (Did he work) at KDL (railway company)?[4]
M: Yes.
F: I see, so you lived there?
M: Yes.
F: For many years?
M: Ah, no. I just stayed for two years.
F: Two years?
M: Yes, then I left and came to this place.
F: Mm.
M: Mm.
F: Lubumbashi?
M: Yes.
F: Elisabethville?
M: Yes, Elisabethville.
F: [overlapping] What year was that? [chuckles]
M: That was in nineteen, wait, in forty-nine.
F: Forty-nine?
M: Yes.
F: You arrived here?
M: Yes, I arrived here. (Then) in sixty, or rather in
fifty, we went to Port Elisabeth, together with that other older brother of
mine with whim we painted these pictures.

5. F: Yes, but before that, when you came to this place.
M: Yes.
F: Did you come across other artists?
M: Well, I met an artist, [with emphasis] only one.
F: One?
M: Yes, someone from Brazzaville, by the name of Paul.
F: Paul?
M: Yes, he was painting here. He was the only one.
F: [overlapping] Paul, and what was his other name?
M: Just Paul, his other name – he was from Cameroon – I don’t know his other name.
F: (Could it have been) Haroun?
M: I don’t know – yes.
F: Haroun? No (it wasn’t).[5]
M: He had been working at MASS.
F: At MASS.
M: Yes.
F: What was this MASS?
M: He was a clerk, there was a company here in town
(called) MASS.
F: Mm.
M: Yes, that is where he was working. Then he quit that (job) and began to
paint because they used to buy many pictures in this place.
F: He?
M: Yes.
F: What kind of paintings?
M: He did landscapes, all those pictures of the Gécamines,
of people, everything he...
F: ... at that time, they were doing (pictures of)
Gécamines?
M: Yes. It was here. Except, what was it called?
F: Union Minière?
M: Union Minière.
F: But they painted this (kind of) picture?
M: This kind? Yes.
F: Even that long ago?
M: Yes.
F: In forty-nine?
M: Yes.
F: Really?
M: Yes.
F: And landscapes and...
M: ... and all, yes.
F: What about Mamba Muntu?
M: No Mamba Muntu, no, no. Mamba Muntu, that’s now.
F: I see.
F: We are going to talk about Mamba Muntu (later).
M: [overlapping] Yes. Mamba Muntu, that’s now.
F: So there was this Paul. Paul, he was from Cameroon?
M: Yes, he was.
F: Now he has gone away?
M: He went away.

6. F: Alright. So you arrived here. [pauses] Did you have
relatives here?
M: Yes, I had a relative.
F: Mm. So you stayed with your relative.
M: Yes, I stayed with a relative, his name is Lufuluabo
Paul.
F: Lufuluabo?
M: Paul, yes.
F: Mm. (Was this) in the Gécamines (workers’ settlement)?
M: No, in a township.
F: In a township.
M: Yes.
F: Mm. Which township was it?
M: It was in Kenia township.
F: Kenia. Kenia.
M: Yes.
F: Mm. So that’s where you lived.
M: Mm.
F: You were still young?
M: Yes, I was.
F: Mm.
M: Mm.
F: Fine. So when you came to this place you resumed you
work as a (painter).
M: I just worked as an artist.
F: And did (people) buy (paintings) at the time?
M: People from this place?
F: Mm.
M: There was one who bought (my paintings), a certain
Monsieur by name of Dekost who came from Zambia.
F: Dekost?[6]
M: Yes. He bought a lot of paintings, close to three
hundred.
F: Three hundred?
M: Three hundred paintings. He went away with them,
explaining to me, I am going to organize an exposition in Port Elisabeth.
F: Port Elisabeth?
M: Yes.
F: Mm. Port Elisabeth, in South Africa?
M: South Africa, yes.
F: All the way down there?
M: Yes. I have been there.
F: You went there?
M: Yes.
F: What year (was that)?
M: We went in fifty, in fifty-one.
F: Fifty, fifty-one?
M: Mm.
F: Who went, you and?
M: Me and Tshibangu Ignace, my older brother.
F: I see.
M: Yes. He was an artist, too.
F: Only the two of you or were there others?
M: No, just the two of us.
F: And who paid for the ticket?
M: The one who paid the ticket? That was Ignace, this
older brother of mine, because he was already there before I came.[7]
F: I see.
M: Yes.
F: But was it possible at that time to move around like
that and go there to...
M: ... it was forbidden to just move around.
F: I see.
M: Just to go to a place without a purpose. If you had
work.
F: I see.
M: If you went there to work then (the authorities would
say) we’ll give you a travel permit, a laissez-passer.
F: Yes, but how did you get this job?
M: Well, I got it because I was an artist.
F: Mm.
M: And he (my brother) also, so we went to ask for a
travel permit.
F: Mm.
M: Yes. So they looked at the papers and said, alright,
fine, because you go there to work in your profession, you may go.
F: Mm.
M: We went.
F: To Port Elisabeth?
M: To Port Elisabeth. When we left here we first stopped
in Ndola.
F: Ndola.
M: Yes, for one day. Then we took the train to Bulawayo.
F: I see.
M: Yes, from Bulawayo it was to Francistown.
F: Yes.
M: Yes, from Francistown, Port Elisabeth.
F: Port Elisabeth?
M: Yes.
F: [pauses, to himself] Fort Elisabeth, Port Elisabeth[8].
Was that close to the sea?
M: Yes, it’s close to the Indian Ocean.
F: The Indian Ocean.
M: Yes.
F: That’s the place. I passed through there.
M: Yes.
F: I went through. And how many years did you stay there?
M: We stayed there for three months.
F: Just three months?
M: Just three months.
F: Living where?
M: What? We lived in a township with some other relatives
of ours. The one (we stayed with) had written down his address for us.
F: I see.
M: His home address.
F: So there were people from the Kasai there?
M: Yes. (Our relative) was a male nurse.
F: Ah.
M: That’s where we went when we arrived.
F: Right now, are they still living there?
M: No, he left.
F: He left.
M: Yes.
F: What language did you speak.
M: What? With him we would speak tshiLuba but the language
there was just English.
F: English.
M: Yes. We could understand it, but as to speaking...
F: Ah.
M: Yes.
F: So you worked there?
M: Yes we worked, painting these pictures.
F: Pictures?
M: People bought a lot of them.
F: Mm.
M: Then we came back here. That was in the same year.
F: Mm.
M: What I’m saying, the money we had.
F: Mm.
M: The money we made with the paintings – there was a moment
when things did not go well.

7. F: (Are you talking about) now?[9]
M: Yes, now...
F: So how was it before?
M: Before, things went very well. We were able to buy
clothes, stuff to eat well – nowadays not anymore.
F: But the ones who bought (paintings) at that time, they
were Europeans?
M: Yes, it was above all Europeans who bought (them).
F: But what about Africans (lit. people)? Africans...
M: Oh, not the Africans. In those days, it wasn’t
Africans, not a single one.
F: Not a single one.
M: No. No Africans, only Europeans.
F: I see.
M: Mm.
F: So you stayed there (in Port Elisabeth) only for three
months, why?
M: We spent (only) three months because of my companion.
F: Mm.
M: He was afraid. This so far away here, let’s go back.
F: I see.
M: Yes. So I went back with him.
F: Mm.
M: I talked to him insisting we should stay. He said, no,
let’s go back.
F: Mm.
M: Yes. Therefore I went back with him.
F: So you returned. After that you stayed here?
M: After that I just stayed here.
F: Mm.
M: Yes. Then I began to do my painting, slowly continuing
with it up to this day.
F: Up to this day.
M: Yes.

8. F: Now (another question), when did you marry you wife?
M: Well, I married my wife there[10] in fifty.
F: In fifty?
M: Yes.
F: Mm.
M: That was my first wife, we were separated.
F: The marriage ended?
M: Yes, it ended because she had no children.
F: I see.
M: Yes. The second one I married in fifty-seven.
F: Fifty-seven.
M: Fifty-seven. Now, with her we had children, four of
them.
F: Four?
M: Yes. Two of them have left.
F: They left?
M: Yes.
F: (Because) they had grown up?
M: No (not all of them). The small ones (are still with
us).
F: The small ones?
M: Yes. The others are grown up.
F: Mm.
M: Yes.
F: Mm. [pauses] And you live in Kamalondo township now?
M: (You are talking about) them?
F: (No, I mean) the part of town where you live.
M: In Kenia township.
F: Still in Kenia?
M: Yes.
F: Mm. Do you own your house?
M: No, I just have a house which I...
F: ...rent?
M: Yes. Because I was cheated out of the house I had
before.
F: How so?
M: It happened when we left during the war in sixty.
F: Mm.
M: Yes.
F: Ah, you had to (leave).
M: Yes. So we left.
F: Yes.
M: Well, when we came back the house had been taken away.
Going to court was useless and to find the means for a house is difficult.
F: [overlapping] No way.
M: Mm.
F: Who took it away?
M: The government.
F: The government?
M: Yes.
F: Single handed?
M: Yes they took it single handed.
F and M: [laugh]
F: So now you have to rent?
M: Yes, now I rent.

9. F: Mm. During all those many years you only worked as
an artist?
M: As an artist, yes.
F: You didn’t work in another job?
M: I took a job when I saw that my work (as an artist) did
not go well.
F: Mm.
M: Alright, so then I got employment with Monsieur Liko –
or was it Monsieur Leza? – Monsieur Liko it was. They made windows and things
like that. I began as a metal worker.
F: Metal worker.
M: Yes.
F: I see.
M: Right. So I worked for two years and then I left and
began to work as a painter. The reason why I left the job was that I saw
that things were not going too well.
F: Mm.
M: So I went to work for Beroti Fer, again as a metal
worker.
F: Mm.
M: Yes. I worked (there) for two years. Then I quit and
from then on I just painted these pictures.
F: Since then – how many years (would that be)?
M: (You mean) how many years (old) I am now?
F: No, no. Since you had this job as...
M: ...metal worker?
F: Since you began (to paint only).
M: Ah yes. Alright, in sixty-five I was with Beroti.
F: Mm.
M: Yes.
F: Then you left in sixty...
M: ...in sixty...
F: .. in sixty-seven, right?
M: (I worked there from) sixty-seven to sixty-eight.
F: I see.
M: Yes. Then I began...?...
F: ...?... in sixty-eight?
M: Yes.
F: (From then on) it was this work...
M: Only this work...
F: Of painting.
M: Of painting.

10. F: Nowadays it appears that Africans buy (paintings).
Mm? In the past it was only Europeans but now...
M: Africans as such don’t buy, no. They buy [with
emphasis] very little.
F: Little?
M: Yes. But they don’t really buy a lot. Things are not
going well anymore.
F: How many pictures do you paint per week?
M: Every week?
F: Mm.
M: Alright. I can do [pauses] fifteen paintings.
F: Mm. Fifteen?
M: Yes. However, you may do fifteen, right?
F: Mm.
M: When you do your rounds and people buy them that’s
fine.
F: Mm.
M: (But it can happen) that you paint and the stuff just
sits there. You keep walking around, nothing happens. (People) don’t buy.
F: Mm.
M: Yes.
F: Don’t you make your rounds sometimes on payday?
M: On payday, still...
F: I see.
M: If you are lucky.
F: Yes.
M: People will buy two or three.
F: How is it at Gécamines, do they buy?
M: Ah, they do, so-so.
F: Not a lot?
M: Mm. No, not a lot.
F: And the Europeans nowadays, do they buy many
(paintings)?
M: There used to be Europeans who bought a lot. What they
did was take them off (the stretchers), you understand?
F: Mm.
M: Before sending (them away).
F: Mm.
M: Yes. I was acquainted with one European who bought a
lot, something like thirty (paintings).
F: Mm.
M: So he went away with them. He told me...
F: (Was he) a Belgian?
M: Yes, he was Belgian. When I come back, he said, I am
going to buy more. And wherever he went he went for good.
F: Mm.
M: He never came back.
F: Mm. And how about right now, do you have some European
customers?
M: No way, not now.
F: Mm.
M: (Well there are some) but few.
F: Few?
M: Yes.
F: Few. For instance those friends (of ours) over there,
didn’t they (buy some)?.
M: Yes, (those who live) here, yes.
F: Mm?
M: Yes.
F: They bought (some)?
M: They did, yes.[11]
F: And others?
M: Yes.
F: Where, here in town?
M: In town, over there, they bought two (paintings) the
other day. Still, the kind of things I do are seldom bought these days.
F: Mm.
M: Because nowadays I don’t have a European customer in
the sense that we get together and you work for him, you understand?
F: Mm.
M: (Doing) a lot. If he would do that my work could go
well. But nowadays business is really bad.
F: Really bad.
M: Mm.

11. F: So, the way you see it, [pauses] in the old days
only whites bought (paintings).
M: Yes.
F: (Whereas) now Africans begin to buy them.
M: They are beginning to buy, yes.
F: Visiting African homes I observe that many have your
paintings.
M: Yes.
F: Mm?
M: Yes, they have them.
F: And which are the paintings they like most?
M: Landscapes.
F: Landscapes? Africans (like them)?
M: Africans, yes.
F: So Africans like landscapes.
M: Well, yes. Africans like [pointing to paintings]
(pictures of) Gécamines.
F: Mm.
M: Others like – what is it again? Yes, this one, the
Whip. And what else? Mamba Muntu.
F: And Mamba Muntu.
M: Those are the ones that are popular among the people.
[points to paintings] This one, and this one, and this one. These landscapes
not so much.
F: Ah. Mm.

12. Now, [pauses] You don’t have a child or some other
person to help you?
M: Oh no.
F: With selling paintings. I noticed that other artists
work with a youngster.
M: Yes, (youngsters) who go around selling.
F: Going around and selling.
M: About youngsters – I took on two of them so they would
sell (paintings) for me – that was a flop. They just went away.
F: Ah.
M: Mm. Never to be seen again.
F: [chuckles]
M: He just went away...?...
F: [chuckles]
M: [chuckles]
F: Really?
M: Ah, that one.
F: Now, [pauses] if you paint twenty-five pictures every
week.
M: Mm.
F: Do you sell them all?
M: About selling, that’s difficult (to tell). In one week
you may do twenty-five paintings but, as far as selling them, it may take you
three weeks, or two, (and in the end) you may still be left with a couple of
paintings. To make your sales you keep walking around and around. One day
(you sell) nothing, on another day one, next day two, and so on. [claps]
F: Mm.

13. [pauses] The work you are doing now, that of an artist.
M: Yes.
F: In your eyes, how does it differ from other kinds of
work?
M: (The work) of the painter you mean? Nowadays it is
different because there are not many customers.
F: Yes, but no...
M: Mm.
F: What I want to know – when you look at other kinds of
work, for instance, when you were a metal worker.
M: Yes.
F: Mm?
M: Yes.
F: The kind of work that the employees of Gécamines do, or
a job as metal worker.
M: Yes.
F: How does it differ from the work of an artist?
M: It is different because an artist’s work, if you have a
nice place where you can work, you paint, and people buy, right?
F: Yes.
M: In that case an artist’s work is better.
F: How so, better?
M: It is better than...?...
F: Yes, but how?
M: Eh?
F: In what way is it better?
M: In terms of making money.
F: Money?
M: Yes, [pauses] yes.

14. F: You have seen the work, the paintings of other
artists.
M: Yes.
F: How do you look at it? Are there are some who know
their work while others don’t – but how will we know which is which?
M: About that – a person paints as he learned (his work).
There are some who did not learn it at school.
F: Mm. Some learn just by observing how someone paints and
begin to paint himself. If he sells that’s fine. If people come and buy he’ll
tell himself, ah, this means I know (how to do it).
F: Mm.
M: Yes. But then there others. Such a person has studied
and he is competent in his work. He knows what it is about.
F: Mm.
M: (He knows) this part is wrong, that part is good. But
there are others who just paint without knowing the difference.
F: Mm.

15. F: Have you taught others?
M: I taught two persons.
F: Two persons.
M: Yes.
F: Where are they now?
M: One of them is in Likasi.
F: In Likasi?
M: Yes.
F: His name is?
M: Kayembe.
F: Kayembe?
M: Yes.
F: Kayembe, mm.
M: Then there is the other one, he left and is now in Bulawayo.
F: Bulawayo?
M: Yes.
F: (Did the two also come) from Kasai?
M: Yes.
F: They are from Kasai?
M: The are from Kasai, yes.
F: (One of them) lives in Bulawayo.
M: Yes. He does paintings.
F: Paintings.
M: Yes. He is lucky, he has lots of money now because down
there paintings sell really well.
F: Well.
M: Mm.

16. F: Have you seen that other kind of painters here in Zaire, those who sell their paintings to Europeans for a good price? Have you ever met a
painter who got his house and a car, like a businessman? A painter who is
rich, with lots of money – have you ever seen something like that?
M: No. What I’m saying is if a painter is rich he did not
make his wealth by working as a painter.
F: Mm.
M: He made it with other work.
F: He made it with other work.
M: Or gets other things he sells and that’s how he makes a
lot.
[short interruption]

17. F: Wait a moment I’m going to close (the door) there.
M: Yes.
F: Like this it is (too) noisy [walks away to close door].
How about this painting there [points to painting on the wall], do you know
who painted it?
M: The one who painted it?
F: Yes.
M: I don’t know who this is. [pauses] I don’t know him.
F: What do you think of it?
M: Eh?
F: It’s a good one, or?
M: Well, [pauses] not very good, just a little.
F: Mm.
M: Mm.
F: Mm. And this other one?
M: This one?
F: It’s by Kanyemba.
M: Ah, that one is good.
F: That one is good?
M: He knows (what he does), he had training. I know him.
F: You know him?
M: Yes.
F: What is his name?
M: His name is something like Kanyemba. I just know him by
sight.
F: By sight?
M: Yes, because the other day I saw him with some paintings.
F: Here in Lubumbashi?
M: I used to see him around, yes.
F: (Was this) some time ago?
M: Some time ago. Yes, yes, he has done lots of paintings,
I saw them down there.
F: Down where?
M: Just here, in Kenia township, at the place of someone
who bought these (paintings). He is an artist.
F: Kanyemba?
M: Mm.
F: Kanyemba Yav (is his full name).
M: He is an artist. Kanyemba? He lives here.
F: Now he is in Kolwezi.
M: He is in Kolwezi? Ah, that’s right.
F: A Lunda.
M: Mm.
F: And that one is a Mwenze.
M: This one is a Mwenze?
F: Mwenze. Have you heard his name?
M: His name, yes.
F: Mwenze.
M: Mwenze, yes.
F: And there are others [pointing to other paintings].
M: There are others, who are they? This one [looks at
painting] (it says) Kasongo. Kasongo? Him I don’t know.
F: I see.
M: Yes. There are more.
F: Kabinda.
M: This one I know[12]
F: This one, who is it?
M: Ndaie.
F: Ndaie?
M: Yes.
F: No. No this is not Ndaie, it is Muteba.
M: Muteba?
F: It says Muteba (on the picture). We do have another one
by Ndaie. [goes to look for it]
M: I see.
F: We have one but this one is by Muteba.
M: Ah, so this one is by Muteba.
F: But we have another one by Ndaie.
M: But they paint the same way. (He) and Ndaie.
F: Do you know Ndaie?
M: Yes.
F: Have you met him?
M: Yes, I have. I know him, yes.
F: You do?
M: Yes.
F: (And what about) this Kabinda?
M: That one?
F: That one.
M: Him, I don’t know.
F: You don’t. Pilipili. Pilipili, have you heard his name?
M: Yes. There are so many artists whose names I have
heard. Pilipili. There is another one, Mbaala, or something like that – there
are so many of them.
F: (Do you mean) Bela?
M: Mm.
F: (Someone who was active) long ago?
M: Yes.
F: He came from Tchad.
M: Yes.

18. F: So, when you arrived her in fifty, were you aware
of those (painters) like Mwenze, Pilipili, and Bela? The worked in the same
atelier.
M: People like Pilipili?
F: Mm.
M: Who worked in the same atelier?
F: Mm, all of them. The formed a group of artists.
M: Aah, yes. Yes.
F: Did you know that group?
M: Yes I knew it.
F: They were together with a European.
M: Yes, they were together with a European who taught
them.
F: What was the name of that European.
M: His name I forgot.
F: Desfossés.
M: Ah, yes.
F: Have you seen this atelier there?
M: Yes, well, no, I have not seen it myself.
F: But at that time, in fifty, were there many of you?
Were there many artists here (in Lubumbashi)?
M: In fifty there were lots of them. There was Tshibangu
Ignace.
F: Mm.
M: And the one I told you about, the one from Brazzaville .
F: Mm.
M: Paul.
F: Paul.
M: Yes, and then another one? And Katumba Bernard. He
left, I don’t know where he is now.
F: Mm.
M: And another one, mm, Tshimbala Ari[13].
F: Tshimbala Ari?
M: Ari. Yes. He left, he was from Port Francqui.
F: From Port Francqui, I see.
M: Yes.
F: Tshimbala Ari.
M: Ari.
F: And then?
M: There were others but I don’t know their names.

19. F: And what about right now? What you observe now.
M: Yes.
F: Who (among them) is a good painter?
M: Here?
F: Here.
M: Tumba Joseph.
F: Tumba Joseph?
M: Mm. He lives here, in Bel Air.
F: In Bel Air?
M: Yes.
F: Is he (still) active?
M: He is an artist who does his work at home.
F: At home.
M: Yes.
F: Doing what kind of paintings?
M: He does, I would say, landscapes.
F: Mm.
M: All kinds, (sometimes) with animals.
F: Do you have his address?
M: His home address I don’t know.
F: On Chausée...
M: He lives on Chaussée de Kasenga.
F: Chaussée de Kasenga?
M: Yes.
F: (Or) close to Chaussée de Kasenga?
M: Yes, close to Chaussée de Kasenga.
F: Tumba Joseph?
M: Tumba Joseph, yes.
F: How would I go about meeting him? Tumba.
M: Yes
F: If we wanted to meet him?
M: You want to meet him?
F: Mm.
M: I (could arrange this). When I see him.
F: Mm.
M: I’ll inform him.
F: I see.
M: Mm.
F: You could inform him.
M: Mm.
F: So him you regard as a good artist?
M: He is an artist, yes, and has been [with emphasis] for
a long time, since forty, forty-one.
F: Tumba Joseph?
M: Yes. Since forty-one he has always been an artist, up
to this day.
F: Right now?
M: Right now (he only works as) an artist. There was a
time when he stopped (painting) and took a job.
F: But now he can be found at his home?
M: He is at home, he has his own house, yes. His house he
got when went to the Kasai to get some stuff. He sold it and this is how he
got his house.
F: I see.
M: Yes.
F: Bel Air (is where he lives)?
M: In Bel Air.
F: Going down on Chaussée de Kasenga, is it on the left
or...
M: ...here, (on this side).
F: On this side.
M: Yes.
F: (So it’s) on the right?
M: It’s on the right yes, in Bel Air where you have that
crossroads.[14]
F: Yes, yes.
M: At the crossroads.
F: Mm.
M: Yes, that’s where it is. (But) I don’t know where
(exactly) his house is.
F: Tumba Joseph.
M: Tumba Joseph.

20. F: And then?
M: (You mean) another one?
F: Another one.
M: There is none. Of course, there are many others but
those are the ones I know.
F: You also know Ndaie.
M: Eh?
F: Ndaie.
M: Ndaie, yes.
F: He is an artist, or not?
M: Yes, he is.
F: How about others?
M: Well, there is Ndaia and a few others. I’ll inform
them.
F: Do you know their names?
M: Yes. There is this Ndaie and another one, Katumba.
F: Katumba.
M: Katumba and another one.
F: Katumba left.[15]
M: No, this is another Katumba.
F: I see.
M: Not the one (we talked about).
F: Katumba?
M: Yes.
F: Where (does he live)?
M: He lives in Katuba. I am going to tell him when I see
him.[16]
F: Yes, yes. Is he an old person or someone...
M: No, he is still young.
F: Mm.
M: Mm.
F: Katumba. [pauses] Another one?
M: Let me see, not really because the others just produce
trash.
F: Trash, like Kapenda. Do you know him?
M: Kapenda? Kapenda I know, yes.
F: Kapenda with his paintings there on Route de Munama.
M: Ah, yes, yes. He is the one who spreads his paintings
(on the roadside), I know him.
F: Kapenda, right?
M: Yes.
F: And Nkulu.
M: And Nkulu, yes.
F: Nkulu.
M: Nkulu is the one who does paintings like [turns to look
at paintings] – I don’t know, perhaps you haven’t seen his paintings yet.
F: We have some. We have some.
M: You do?
F: Mm.
M: Alright.
F: And who else is there? Tshibumba.
M: Tshibumbu?
F: Tshibumbu, Tshibumbu.[17]
M: Ah, yes. I know him. I heard ...?....
F: Where does he live?
M: He lives in – no, he lives in Ruashi. In Ruashi.
F: Ruashi or Kipushi?
M: Mm.
F: Tshibumba.
M: That one is from Kipushi, yes.
F: Tshibumba. There is Ndaie, we (talked about him).
M: Ndaie Fréderic, yes.
F: Mm. Beya Ilunga. Ilunga. Beya Ilunga, we have paintings
by him.

21. F: Now, don’t you artists have an association?
M: Well, we Africans.
F: Mm.
M: We don’t have that sort of thing. We set up a nice
association some time ago. The purpose was to get together, even to start our
center where we would work together.
F: Mm.
M: [with emphasis] What a fiasco. The people (involved)
were no good. They asked the government for money and then the one to whom it
was given ran away. He ran away with it.
F: [laughs]
M: Yes, he ran away with it.
F: Who was he?
M: ...?... His name was Mukendi.
F: Mukendi.
M: Yes. He ran away with the money. And...
F: ... was this recently or long ago?
M: It was just in sixty, in sixty, no, it was in seventy.
F: In seventy.
M: In seventy, yes. We set up a nice association to
cooperate and to go ask the government for money.
F: Mm.
M: (The idea was that the government) would give us money
and we would begin to work with it and our work would go well. Aah (what
happened was) this fellow went there alone and he was given something like
five hundred Zaire.
F: Mm.
M: He absconded.
F: He ran away with it?
M: Mm, he ran away with it.
F: [laughs]
M: We never saw him again. [laughs]
F: Do you have a carte d’artiste[18] now?
M: Eh?
F: Do you have a carte d’artiste?
M: Yes, I have one. It is (at home but) I have one.
F: Did you have to pay for it?
M: Yes.
F: How much is it nowadays?
M: You mean the fee?
F: Mm.
M: The fee is three Zaire.
F: Three Zaire.
M: Yes.
F: And where to you buy it? Over there at...
M: There, at this place – what is it called? – the Arts
(department) the one for artists. That is where they issue them. So I (have
one).
F: Is this the place near the theater there?
M: It is near the theater, on this side.
F: Mm.
M: Yes. That’s where they have an office.
F: Culture and (something)?
M: Yes, that’s the one.
F: That’s the one?
M: Yes.
F: So they keep a register of all artists?
M: Yes.
F: Right?
M: Yes.
F: I see. So, the way it is now, every artists works on
his own.
M: Yes, he just makes his rounds. But there is no
association, no cooperation.
F: Mm.
M: (The idea was) that the person whom you made president
would be the spokesman for all. He went (to the government), they gave him
money, and he ran away.
F: Yes.
M: It came to nothing.
F: Mm. That’s how it is. So then [pauses] every artist
does his own work.
M: Yes.
F: Yes.

22. And now, I think we can (look at the paintings) I am
going to get.
M: Yes.
F: And you can explain to me the meaning of each picture.
[noise of paintings being brought] So, let’s start with this one, what is it
called?
M: Mamba Muntu.
F: Mamba Muntu, yes. Now, what is its meaning?
M: Its meaning?
F: Mm.
M: The meaning of Mamba Muntu – the way we Africans (see
it) is that she is something that comes from the water, you could say she is
like a milakre.
F: Like what?
M: A milakre. She is a milakre. Something
that comes out of the water although we, I...
F: Milakre? Ah, miracle.
M: Yes.
F: Mm.
M: I haven’t seen her yet.
F: No?
M: No. Not with my own eyes. I did see her on a small
photograph. A European told me about it.
F: Mm.
M: He told me, this thing comes out of the water,
somewhere far away. But we have binoculars[19] and if you keep hidden you can catch her.
F: With binoculars?
M: Yes. (When) she gets out of the water, far way.
F: Far away?
M: Yes. You can catch her with binoculars.[20] Then he gave me this little photograph, I looked at it, and began painting
Mamba Muntu.
F: From this photo?
M: Mm.
F: Who was the European where you saw it?
M: The one I told you about, Monsieur Decoster.
F: Mm.
M: Yes, he was the one who gave me this little photograph.
He was...
F: ...do you still have it?
M: Ah, no. The little thing got lost.
F: I see.
M: There were some who borrowed it.
F: Ah.
M: (And) it got lost.
F: I see. Where did they see her?
M: One sees her in the water, or in the Indian Ocean.
F: Mm.
M: That, according to the little he told me, was where she
emerged from the water.
F: Mm.
M: It’s always large bodies of water (where she lives),
not in some tiny (pond or stream).
F: No.
M: Mm.

23. F: So then you started to paint (pictures) of this
Mamba Muntu.
M: Yes.
F: When was that?
M: With these Mamba Muntu pictures I began just recently,
in seventy.
F: Seventy.
M: In seventy, yes. That was the year I began with Mamba
Muntu.
F: Why? Because people bought (the pictures)?
M: Yes. They were buying lots of them.
F: Mm.
M: But now they only they buy a few.
F: Only a few?
M: Yes.
F: Because many people already have one?
M: Yes.
F: Now, to go on (talking about) its meaning, so she lives
in the water.
M: She lives in the water.
F: Then there is the wrist watch she wears.
M: She wears her watch.
F: But why a watch? What does it mean? Is it...
M: That one – I’ tell you how it was explained to me.
F: Mm.
M: It is one of the things she likes to wear.
F: Mm.
M: The watch and those ear rings, right?
F: Mm.
M: [points] And this here.
F: This bracelet, yes.
M: A bracelet, yes. And other things, all kinds of them
like the watch, that is what she likes to wear.
F: Mm.
M: Mm.
F: And what about the snake?
M: And the snake?
F: The snake, what does it mean...
M: ...the snake, she and the snake always move together.
F: But what is the meaning of the snake? What is it about?
M: The meaning of the snake?
F: Mm.
M: The snake is something like her companion.[21]
F: Her companion?
M: Mm.
F: But why are people buying those pictures?
M: To put them up in the house, or [claps] to enjoy looking
at them, it is something that seems to be from far away.
F: From far away?
M: Yes.
F: Don’t they say sometimes that you are going to get
money if you see her?
M: Ah yes. People talk like that. If you see her.
F: Mm.
M: You may be able to pull out a lock of hair.
F: Mm.
M: Of her hair. Or you find some she left near the water.
F: Mm.
M: If you manage to get hold of it you may make a fortune.
But I don’t about that. [claps]
F: [laughs] You never saw this?
M: No, I never saw this.
F: You never met a person to whom (this happened).
M: Ah, not yet. Not yet, never.

24. F: Mm. That’s it, about Mamba Muntu. Why is it that in
all the pictures we saw
Mamba Muntu is a European, (looking) like some European
lady?
M: Well, yes. People explained it to me like this: Mamba
Muntu is always male, never female. Or rather, the other way around, she is
always...
F: Female.
M: Female, not male.
F: Never male?
M: Mm. That’s what I was told.
F: But why is she European?
M: Well, I don’t know. I was told her body (lit. her limbs)
is always white.
F: [pauses] But what does that mean? [pauses] She really
resembles a certain European lady.
M: Yes.
F: [laughs] Why?
M: I don’t know.
F: You don’t know?
M: No. Her body is said to be white. There was someone who
told me, I have seen her. So I said to him, how did it happen you saw her? He
said, I saw her when I was fishing, she came out of the water.
F: Mm.
M: Ah, when you saw her you ran away? Yes, he said, I took
off. Ah, I said, how did you get away? Because what they tell is that, if you
hesitate just for a second, the snake will catch you.
F: Mm.
M: I barely saw her, he said, I took cover, and got away.
I told him, no way.
F: Mm. [chuckles]
M: [chuckles]
F: Mm. Alright. So much about Mamba Muntu.
M: So much about Mamba Muntu.
F: Mm. I have (still another question): Does she have
another name?
M: No. (No) other name, just Mamba Muntu.
F: But in tshiKasai?
M: In tshiKasai? Just Mamba Muntu.
F: Mamba Muntu?
M: Mm.
F: (Not) Mami Wata?
M: Mami Wata, that’s in Lingala.
F: In Lingala?
M: In Lingala, yes.
F: There is it Mami Wata.
M: Mami Wata.
F: I see. Alright. So this is a painting people keep
asking for?
M: Yes.

25. F: Mm. Now to this one, Gécamines.
M: Fine. Gécamines, eh?
F: Mm.
M: That...
F: ...smoke stack with...
M: The smoke stack. People like that one, right?
F: Mm.
M: Because – how shall I put it? – a person may choose[22] to take it along when he moves to another place and (then he can say) look,
this is the place were I used to live.
F: Mm
M: (That was) in Lubumbashi. This is what Gécamines looks
like. Why do people like (this painting)? Because they have the factory
before their eyes.
F: Mm.
M: Yes. Because is also shows the dump and all those
things there. That’s what people like.
F: How did you paint these pictures? Just from
imagination, or did you first go there and observe what it is like?
M: First I went to take a look at it. I look at it the way
people like it.
F: Mm.
M: Yes. Alright. People like the view from a distance.
Because if I stand on this side.
F: Mm.
M: Then this is how I paint it.
F: Mm.
M: For a view from over there, I go there, copy it and
then I paint it. Alright. Nowadays I don’t go there anymore. I just paint it
because this is something (I have in my head).
F: So you started out with making a sketch on location?
M: A sketch, yes.
F: Over there, outside?
M: Yes. I made a sketch there, outside.
F: I see.
M: Yes, that’s what I went to do there at the time.
F: And now you just follow one and the same model.
M: Yes. I paint after the same model.
F: I see. [points out] Those are the guards?
M: Yes.
F: (The ones that are there) today.
M: Yes.
F: So this is something to remind, to make people
remember?
M: Yes, it is to remind people: This is the factory, this
is what it looks like. And people really like to look at Gécamines. Aah, they
say, Gécamines, Gécamines, Gécamines. They like that.
F: Mm.
M: Yes.
F: Do they buy it a lot?
M: Yes, they do. There are people who only buy this
(picture).
F: They do?
M: Yes, they do.
F: Mm. They ask for it. How do they ask for it when they
order one? Do they just say...
M: Yes, (they ask), do you have one...?...
F: Do a Gécamines for me?
M: Yes. Yes.

26. F: And what about when they ask for that one. [picks
up another painting]
M: Ah, this one. This one they like for the following
reason. Long ago we were...
F: ...(yes) but to order it, what do they say, how do they
call it?
M: They...
F: What is its name?
M: Its name is old-time prison, the jail, a place
where....
F: Yes, yes, but when people come to your place.
M: Yes.
F: They say, paint for me what? They say...
M: Do a painting of people long ago.
F: Of people long ago.
M: Of a jail long ago.
F: Mm. Don’t they say Colonie Belge?
M: Ah, of course, yes, Colonie Belge.
F: Or the Whip.
M: Ah, the Whip, yes.
F: Yes.
M: People like this one because they want to know.
F: Mm.
M: Because in fourteen-eighteen, or was it nineteen, no,
it was fourteen...
F: Mm.
M: ..eighteen. Well, that was when the Belgians arrived
right?
F: Mm.
M: This is what they used to do to us. Therefore people
like to see (this painting), so they know, this is what they did to people.
F: Mm.
M: In the past.
F: And that was in fourteen-eighteen?
M: Yes, that is to say, in fifty and sixty, in sixty.
F: No longer,
M: It was over.
F: Mm. [pauses, points out]. What about him, is he a
European?
M: That one is a European.
F: Mm.
M: Now, this one is the police.
F: The police.
M: Yes. He is beating that person with a whip.
F: Mm.
M: Now this one is the bugler. He plays the bugle.
F: Mm.
M: Yes, this one.
F: Mm.
M: This one is a soldier. Ah, that one they are beating
and those who are tied up are the ones they finished beating.
F: I see.
M: Yes. Here are the ones who go to get water.
F: What does this (inscription) TP mean?
M: What it means – in the old days.
F: Yes.
M: Everything that belonged to the government was marked
TP.
F: TP.
M: Yes. Even the houses of...
F: ...?... what does TP signify?
M: TP? Something like travaux publiques.
F: Ah, Public Works.
M: Yes, Public Works.
F: Then you put down, “Prison...
M: Yes, “Prison of Mweka Territory.”
F: Mweka.
M: Mweka.
F: Your home town.
M: Yes.
F: [chuckles]
M: [chuckles]
F: Yes.
[recording ends]

Notes

[1] This is probably how “Madeleine” is pronounced by Mutombo who speaks local
Swahili with a strong “Kasaian” accent though not consistently: The negative
prefix si-, for instance, most often becomes shi- and /j/ is /y/,
but (see the text later on) sijue, I don’t know, occurs as shiyue, shijue, or siyue. Other features are more consistent, e.g. kazhi instead of kazi, work. Still others, such as frequent but not regular
omission of initial /h/ and a weakening of final /a/ to /e/, I decided to
ignore in this transcript.

[2]Bene lit. children of, is a frequent element of ethnic names in the Kasai region.

[3] “Up here” is the conventional way of indicating geographic movement up-river
although it may be down to the South on the map. “Very young” is the
translation of Mutombo’s phrase “I still had small limbs.”

[4] This was a safe guess, KDL being the main local employer at this important
railway post.

[7] “He was already there” could also refer to the fact that he was born before
Mutombo.

[8] I
kept repeating this because I still could not believe that they went all the
way to South Africa.

[9] When we talked I was confused about the mwaka ya sasa, which can mean
either that or this year. I thought Mutombo was talking about the present (and
we went on talking about times before our present before I returned to their
stay in Port Elisabeth toward the end of this paragraph.

[10] “There,” mule, probably means that he got married in his home country.

[11] The reference is to an American colleague and neighbor on Avenue Mpolo, Thomas
Turner, who eventually built up a collection of local art.

[12] I
mention the name of Kabinda but Mutombo looks at another painting.