I hope breeders from the USA (or others) can enlighten me.I heard quite often The Minstril would nearly "destroy" movement. Please be so kind and know that I am not interested in bashing those great stallion who has a world-wide reputation but I like to ask two questions:

1. Is that true?2. If so, please, tell me why? Where is the weak point in his pedigree.

His sire Ruminaja Ali was a good mover from all what I have heard.I am from Europe and the dam from The Minstril, Bahila (Ibn Galal I x Bakria by Gharib) was bred here so I am quite familiar with this lines. We don't need to speak about Gharib's movement - he is known the world over for his fabulous trot.

Bahila's sire Ibn Galal I was by the stallion Ibn Galal who produced probably more sons that win the stallion performance test than any other Egyptian stallion (with the exception of Gharib).Ibn Galal I himself was a great mover. In fact in Europe Ibn Galal and Gharib both are standing for power and performance and good bodies - together they make a "performance pedigree".

Bakria produced some full sibling to Bahila - namely the stallion Bahrou who had extremely nice movement and the full sisters to Bahila, El Thay Siwa and El Thay Bakria. El Thay Bakria produced among others the performance champion Ben Hur, El Thay Sima's get was successful in France at long distance races.In other words, in Europe The Mintrill's dam line is regarded a source for performance, movement, correct bodies and stamina.Bahila's tail female line goes to Hemmat, the very same line that produced athletes like Sarwat (by Alaa El Din ) in Europe or the great Makhsous in the USA.That is what puzzles me when I hear the word "The Minstril destroys movement"...... Why....

The answer is: it is not true. Of course there will be lesser movers amongst the many offspring of this stallion, but there are also extremely good movers. It takes two, don't forget. That is valid for the bad as well as the good things. Just my opinion on the basis of what I saw myself and heard form others.

No, it is NOT true. the Minstel had very good and balanced movement. I saw him first as a yearling and lateron. I never could understand why some people would say he did not move well. I dont know what they were seeing.David Gardner was an excellent horsemen/rider and put great emphasis on "movement" functioability. He had the choice of many an SE and selected him. And David was no man's fool.I have also seen a number of his get and also they were good moving individuals. If some weren't, then one needs to look at the dams of the foals. I only wished more would have been under saddle and show what they were bred for and could do.

I have a video of The Minstril and he has excellent, free shoulder movement with good hindquarter engagement and impulsion.

Like the previous member stated, "It takes two individuals."

Hundreds of mares were bred to The Minstril and unless emphasis was placed on selecting mares with strong movement, then the foals reflect the results of the mating.

And to address the question of "What is good movement?", I'm not sure the majority of people understand what really constitutes good movment. It's not always break-level trotting and incredible suspension--not every horse is blessed with that kind of athleticism or inclination to move out in that manner. Look at us? How many of the Forum members are ballet dancers, distance runners, hurdlers, pole-vaulters?Some of us may have been born with a physique that would permit such athleticism, but the desire, the motivation to perform has to be there too!

Some Arabians just aren't as exciting in their movements as others. It doesn't mean that they don't move correctly and would be good riding horses.

No one should give any disparaging remarks about The Minstril. Every horse has his faults.

hallo tina is right about the dam line of the minstril, bakria`s best point was her movement - she was a tremendous mover, very powerful. since i owned bakria a few years and bred bahrou the fullbrother to bahila, i can say that this line is bred for and has beautiful movement - all of them. here an old pic of bakria

I've seen some Minstril get,grand get, etc etc, and is definitely not true. There are some that are not exaggerated movers but they cover ground and are fluid. Look at one of our Jumper National Champions, by the Minstril. Very much the 'it takes two to tango'

I think the question shouldn't be "Did The Minstril take movement away" I think it should be "How was The Minstril bred that resulted in poor movers?"

Once you ask that question you will then get the answer. IMO the linebreeding and inbreeding back and forth over The Minstril is what has caused the poor movers (in general and certainly not all). But outcrossed The Minstril to lines like Seef, Dalul, etc and even non-Egyptian lines and the wonderful movement returns with the most incredible beauty...more so than any inbred/linebred of this cross could hope for.

Well dear McKulley1, didnt you ever hit the nail on the head.If one is good, lets double,triple,quadruple and we get more. hOW RONG, EH?

But it is this ignorance in breeding, the what I almost call darn stupidity, this getting on a bandwaggon even if it runs on two flat tires and to either lazy or dumb to do the own thing.

this is where fortunately many of our small breeders shine, they did not have the money or gull to get on bandwaggons, they did their own thing and did it ever work out okay. to take a brush is wrong, it is the eye which sees and evaluates, the knowledge or experiences which guides.

Indeed matching with the older lines you mentioned resulted in excellentoffspring. But now it is almost too late to get some of those real good old mares, even if it were just to get one foal, eh. And pay any price, just to get them, as we did in the past.

If one is lucky to get a natural bred one, one should think one is in tall cotton. It is a good thing that those natural bred ones bring double the price, are in high demand by experts, as they also should. they are as rare as a 100 carat diamond, carry a predictable pedigree and a treasure to behold. And who would have them, eh?Well look at our small breeders, and if you can talk them out of one, morgage your soal and go for it. Just my sincere opinion. I think over 75% of SES produced now are by AI. soon there will be few natural bred ones left and with it unpredictable pedigrees in galore, believ me. If you dont now, you will some day. It would be a great idea that all those who have those few natural bred mares/colts left, TO STATE SO IN THEIR ADVERTISMENTS.those will be the diamonds of the future again I think.

Due some tall thinking in 2007, use common sense, look to the past to employ things properly in the future. Dont give up or in, walk before you get on a bandbaggwon with two flat tires. do your own thing and do it right.Always remember you are breeding horses, an intelligent mammal which feels as you do, and not cattle or swine we can eat.

There is an exceptional *Ibn Safinaz son at Imperial. And EAI Silvereen is another INCREDIBLE mover. But I will tell you that many years ago I was standing a SE Silvereen son. He was out of an Dalul granddtr. He had the most incredible movement you could ever want! The most incredible neck! A gorgeous head...but it was not bashed in exotic. I saw in Europe how they were crossing these lines already, The Minstril onto Seef and such for the combination of sheer incredible beauty and motion to die for. I even went out and leased a The Infidel dtr to breed specifically to him. I took his promo info to the Event for people to see. Do you know there was little interest!!!!!!!!! They wanted horses with little movement but exotic heads (and tiny eyes most of the time!). All for the extreme face. I watched these horses stand up at halter and almost fall over when asked to walk away. OH to have crossed some of these inbred mares onto such athletic lines. The combination would have been earth shattering.

All is not lost but one must jump off of the bandwagon to achieve it. But the world is so full of lemmings....

Here, here! I do agree with everything that is being said. One of my best movers is a Minstril granddaughter and I've told the story before. It's amazing how rumors start and bravo to TinaK for posing such an intelligent well thought out question. It's never about one horse.

Has anyone noticed how pleasant it is not to have anonymous guest posters any longer? THANK YOU ALEKSI AND OLIVER for the changes that have allowed us to have more productive discussions on these delicate and important-to-breeders questions.

I also have a Minstril grandson. He is also a wonderful mover and he is also linebred Abbeyan om Jurays, however, (big word, that) he has two lines to Bint Magidaa, therefore, also to Khofo, who was a wonderful moving horse. His grandmother is Marah, who was noted for her good legs and good movement, and of course, other grand dad is Jamil who was also a good mover. I think you CAN linebreed without losing performance ability, if you are careful not to have too many crosses to the same horse closeup and study the horses first.Cathy

Hi Tina,The Minstril and many of his get were able to move rather well, I have seen these horses at the Egyptian Event from some of there first appearances and when some of them returned to the EE I never missed the chance to look them over again to see how they improved with maturity.When (some say) that the Minstril lines can't move, I don't believe it is bcause of there breeding or how many crosses they have repeated in there breeding but, rather how many horses this line has produced over the years, lets face it, not a every foal produced from a great stallion equals a home run but, more practically speaking, only a few in any line will reach the status of up where the air is rare. I followed this line and the owner and I even talked about us purchasing Thee Asil, a grand get, when he was first brought to the EE as two year old, he had a fabulous neck. Take Botswana, a very exotic and beautiful stallion, he has three lines to The Minstril and is even closer when his pedigree is examined closely, and so are many more closely bred but, many are of extremly high quality with beautiful movement. Robert,Echo Hill Arabians

O Cathy, now you make me laugh for joy. I often wonder why on this earth I am pounding so hard, and than I look at our horses and right away I know it is not in vain.

Now I read these wonderful names of some of those old-timers and am so happy that it is recognized what I saw and know so long ago. Dalul himself(I knew him in the flesh since he was a pup) was an exceptional powerful mover. And true to form of the Yosreia/Sheherezade line, which never failed and stillcontinues to amaze me how it breeds still on.And of course that Abbayan Um Juray line is no slouch either, actuallyoften fantastic, powerful and balanced movers. And dont overlook those Pritzlaff horses, they are "doers" as well and many very type.

It is so rewarding for me to see how some of you study the lines,state what you like or dont and become aware where it comes from. As you all can see, you can produce a super mover who is also very type.

this forum has helped so much, we all learned so much, including myself, and YES it is wonderful that we now have names. Thanks Aleksi and Oliver. I now can say the forum is no longer "AI". ha!

We stand a wonderful stallion--who is double Minstril, with three lines to Ruminaja Ali. He has consistently given us beautiful foals for the past six years, and has in the process established quite a decent reputation as a straight Egyptian breeding stallion here in the US.

Because I also was told the same thing as you were about the movement of the Minstril bloodlines, we have been, since he was two, very careful to breed our stallion to mares who have excellent movement.

However, one day, about three years ago, a deer lept the fence in our stallion's paddock, and he started to run with the deer across the field. And he exhibited beautiful free flowing movement, with mane and tail flying, and huge extension! And I stood on the hill looking at this and thought...."Who says these horses can't move?" And perhaps a better question, as part of this all has to do with sales competition, "Why would such an indictment have been generated?"

What I can tell you is that many of the Minstril bred horses are extremely intelligent, and have quite calm dispositions. Ours in particular sees no value in rocking the boat and making trouble in the barn...better to just sail along on a easy course and get along with most other horses and the people in his life. A wonderful horse to work with every day--but not long on "blow and snort." He can, of course, blow and snort with the best of them--but that is not his personality on a day-to-day basis.

And so we now like to find mares with blow and snort....and don't worry quite so much about the "movement" problem. Particularly since his foals have been winning consistently in the performance arenas.

Of course, we're probably going to over-correct the "blow and snort" situation and have a program known for fire-breathers! (Just kidding, but one does have to be careful, no?)

One last point. Many of the MInstril horses have been bred and shown here in the US. Our halter training and show ring expectations have never in the past emphasized movement, but more the "hard stand up." Thus our horses are not trained to be free and charismatic in the arena, but to stand up and stretch out their necks and level their backs, and generally look pretty tense. It itakes some time to retrain a halter horse accustomed to the US methods to move freely (and with gusto) as shown in Europe or the Middle East. I think a perfect example is Dakharo. He did not start winning the big prizes abroad until he learned to move freely and charismatically. He could always do it--he just had to learn it was okay in center ring. That process took over six months, if I remember correctly. I saw him shown here in the US--and then the next time in Sharjah about a year later. He was sooooo exciting to watch there, as he exploded into the arena and flew around with his tail over his back and his nostrils distended. Same horse, same ability to move--just a very different presentation.