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Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

Fig,
I'm still inclined to agree with you more than disagree but this probably isn't the time for me to have this discussion. Tossing JO out with the trash probably isn't the answer but JO is at best a complimentary player at this point in his career. He can talk a good game but until he learns to share the ball, make quicker decisions, and keep his head in the game (all consistently) then I'm afraid I am going to have problems with him. This season the stars aligned for him to take his game to the next level and show that all this effort and growing pains of the past had indeed been worth it. It could truly be 'his' team. I don't think he showed that at all.

Let's not pretend JO before the injury was on a tear. He wasn't. He had some higher scoring games but he didn't necessarily shoot a good percentage to do it. More importantly, the team wasn't winning. More times than not he would shrink from the occassion. I know he's been injured but that injury just makes his refusal to pass out of double and triple teams, to force the ball, to shoot fadeaways all the more glaring as a deficit in his game. I don't think it is too much to ask that the face of the franchise circa 2005 make his teammates better and take pressure off of them. Did the JO we saw most games this season make his teammates better or take pressure off of them? I have to say 'no'.

Many times he was putting them behind the 8 ball by shooting woeful percentages and stalling the offense in the process. His lack of blocking out gave the other teams second chance opportunites. Few were the times where he got his teammates open looks by passing out of doubleteams to the open man. His 'highlight' defense was usually good (blocks) but his regular defense sometimes left things to be desired. It is not always the highlight reel plays that matter... it is most times the little things that really matter. And one of these days people will realize the little things aren't really so little. They matter. A lot.

OTOH, games like tonight show he can be effective... but we saw too little of that this season.

I know some are going to blame coach Carlisle for a lot of this. I have some thoughts on this as well but perhaps I should save them. As I said, tonight probably isn't the best time to get into some of this.

I'll just end by saying we have some Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde happening with this team and we will need to be getting that figured out and under control before we can hope to beat the Pistons in a best of 7 game playoff series.

-Bball

Great post.

My feeling is that I don't want Jermaine gone, because he is really talented and is a dominating offensive force when he's on his game. But it's the little things he doesn't do that make me wanna say, 'this guy can't be our franchise player'.

When I point to Ron Artest as our possible franchise player, I get ridiculed and no matter how many points I bring up, there are counter points and critics of all kind, so I'll plead the 5th for that right now. Save that one for another day.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

i have a feeling alot of the negative jo talk wont go away till after the start of next season....people often feel compelled to blame someone, and hes an easy target...he signed a hundred million dollar contract and is the franchise player....this franchise just got eliminated from the playoffs so......guess whos on the hot seat....

but its really not an objective point of view....not when u look at a lot of the facts surrounding the season....

most fresh in everyones mind is the last 16 games jo played....and that appears to be pretty much what everyone is choosing to remember....and thats a bit harsh....considering the guy probably shouldnt have been playing-but if he didnt everyone would be questioning his heart....so he plays and gets dogged....yea, seems harsh....nevermind, that while he was out the team changed how they were playing offensively...which means there is gonna be adjustments-not just for jo but everyone-but jo is the one that gets looked at...the team had to make all these adjustments on the fly...not only on the fly but basically during the playoffs...to say this is less than ideal circumstances, well......

realize something, the projected starters for this team never took the floor together this year...the team played well prior to the brawl, because even though there were injuries, they had plenty of time to work on things...they had training camp and preseason....having a pretty good idea who would be out at the beginning of the season....and jo and ron looked nothing short of awesome prior up until the brawl....after that....pretty much all bets are off...

but jo had a very good run after he came back...someone said the team wasnt winning....well...remember jax wasnt back yet...they only played about 20 games together after the brawl....and with all the injuries of players coming in and out of the lineup...i mean cmon...but to say jo was the reason they werent winning is a bit crazy, to say he wasnt playing well is inaccurate...you cant just discount his great play because the team wasnt winning...there were many other reasons they were losing....really, in spite of jo's great play....

hes been here 5 years now....to judge him by the last 16 games when hes obviously hurt, seems irresponsible....especially when it was so obvious he wasnt himself....we ve seen enuff of him to know that....to somehow say that jo isnt the guy after this season-given all this seasons turmoil just doesnt seem very logical....

i have a feeling that once this team goes into camp....gets healthy....and begins to formulate what the teams identity is gonna be the upcoming years, you will see jo shine once again....hes a quality character....he cares a great deal about his team, the franchise, and the community....hes got what it takes to not only be a franchise player but be the new face of the franchise....it seems only his playing ability is being questioned...which seems a bit absurd based on his career, but understandable considering the emotion involved right now and his stretch of games since he returned from the injury...

do this...just remember him in those few games before the brawl....remember his individual performance after coming back from suspension....then picture an athletic team with him being the focal point....with artest (who will be on a mission next year and will simply be a monster on the court)as a number 2 option and jax as a number 3....seriously have any of u looked at the box scores from the pre brawl games just to remind urself of how good jo and artest were playing together??? u should....

jax will have been here a year...and not worried about what his role is or worried about fitting in....things will just be so much more defined....and therefore they should find it alot easier to focus on playing ball instead of all the bs that had to be dealt with from day one of this season...whether it was injuries or suspensions....

and i think we are all gonna really like that focused team and what they are gonna accomplish next season...

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

Maybe the Pacers should follow the Pistons model. And compete with 4 or 5 players who are allstar caliber and who sacrifice and play well together. Maybe Ron, Jax, and J.O can help each other and that way none of the three have to be "franchise" players

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

Maybe the Pacers should follow the Pistons model. And compete with 4 or 5 players who are allstar caliber and who sacrifice and play well together. Maybe Ron, Jax, and J.O can help each other and that way none of the three have to be "franchise" players

Great point. I don't think they have any choice. None of the three are "Franchise" players right now. Artest, IMHO, is a little closer to it than JO is. Artest's problem is obvious, as is Jackson's. JO has a similar problem - it lies above his shoulders and sits on his neck. The guy doesn't seem to have the mental toughness needed or the ability to think before you speak. I thought he might gain it, but I'm beginning to think it's something you either have or you don't. He made strides after Thomas left as coach but now he is back in the whining, complaining phase he was in when he first got to Indy. I think Jackson and Artest have the mental toughness, they just have anger problems.

Next season will be very interesting. This team will either win 60+ games or they will struggle to win 40. Carlisle and his staff have their work cut out for them. What this team needs to do is hire a psychologist and put him on the staff.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
- Benjamin Franklin

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

Great point. I don't think they have any choice. None of the three are "Franchise" players right now. Artest, IMHO, is a little closer to it than JO is. Artest's problem is obvious, as is Jackson's. JO has a similar problem - it lies above his shoulders and sits on his neck. The guy doesn't seem to have the mental toughness needed or the ability to think before you speak. I thought he might gain it, but I'm beginning to think it's something you either have or you don't. He made strides after Thomas left as coach but now he is back in the whining, complaining phase he was in when he first got to Indy. I think Jackson and Artest have the mental toughness, they just have anger problems.

Next season will be very interesting. This team will either win 60+ games or they will struggle to win 40. Carlisle and his staff have their work cut out for them. What this team needs to do is hire a psychologist and put him on the staff.

Agreed. I think Ron is our closest thing to a franchise player just because of the many deminsions to his game. There is Ron's infamous defense, then their is Ron's ability to score from outside, inside, wide open, being guarded. It's just that sometimes Ron sees his shot fall a few times and then forgets that he can miss. Ron and Jack both have a firy winning desire in them that I like, which is why I really don't wanna lose either one of them.

Jermaine wants to win, but there is something about his demeanor that I don't like. I've already voiced how I feel about his lack of passing, but how he acts when he doesn't get a call to go his way is another thing that bothers me. He seems to cry at the refs when Jack and Ron will argue but eventually let it slide.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

Do the Pistons have a dominating center. No . In fact how many teams do. 1 or 2

Warning here comes the very common and very boring discussion about who is a cwenter and who isn't

I think you're definition of dominating is to much of an all around standpoint.

I want a center that dominates the boards. Someone that can get 10 + rebounds, 2 + blocks, and maybe 8 or 9 points. Basically, I'm talking about Dale Davis 6 years ago. The only players that could possibly bring this are Adonal Foyle (no thanks), Nazr Mohammed, Theo Ratliff, and Jamal Magloire. Hell, I'd even take a lesser player like Tony Battie or Danny Fortson.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

I think you're definition of dominating is to much of an all around standpoint.

I want a center that dominates the boards. Someone that can get 10 + rebounds, 2 + blocks, and maybe 8 or 9 points. Basically, I'm talking about Dale Davis 6 years ago. The only players that could possibly bring this are Adonal Foyle (no thanks), Nazr Mohammed, Theo Ratliff, and Jamal Magloire. Hell, I'd even take a lesser player like Tony Battie or Danny Fortson.

I would argue that Foster is as good as any of those players, except Magloire. Ratliff is better but he's injured all the time

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

I would argue that Foster is as good as any of those players, except Magloire. Ratliff is better but he's injured all the time

And I would argue that not once have I said that Foster is going anywhere, and that Foster is much more effective off the bench, as an energy guy. Plus, Foster, while a good 1-on-1 defensive player, is virtically limited when it comes to blocking shots.

I don't wanna lose Foster, I love the guy. But I want someone else to be our starter. I'd take Ratliff so we can have some more beef inside to swat some shots. Dale is a nice player, but he doesn't have the lift that he use to.

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

I didn't read any of the posts in this thread, but I just want to say one thing.

Jermaine needs to expand his game if he ever wants to win a championship.

He needs to quit complaining to officials. He needs to control his emotions. He needs to wake up on defense and get out on his man. He needs to keep his eyes open when he goes into the post and not try to force the issue. He needs to become a leader.

I don't know how many times this season, especially in the playoffs, that I've had to scream for him to pay attention on defense. He seems to be concerned only with blocking shots/watching the ball; he needs to learn to block out and concentrate on his man--especially when the team is playing man-to-man defense.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

That was a steal. I'm still amazed at how many people were upset about that contract (that includes you, Rimfire!)

Yup - I was wrong on that one - though I still don't think that anyone would have offered him above the MLE after the season and you also could have chosen between paying Foster 4 million or Brad 7. But his wasn't the worst contract given that fall.

Haven't figure out if I was 2-for-3 or 1-for-3 in my assessment of those signings.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

It seems to me that JO has moved further outside with his shots since Mark Aguire left the coaching staff. I could see significant improvement in our shot selection and percentage when Aguire was here. He was a fantastic player, and he seemed to be able to communicate that same excellence to our bigs.

Since he left, our guys have slowly slipped away from those good, effective moves down low on the block and inched, slowly but surely, farther and farther away.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

It seems to me that JO has moved further outside with his shots since Mark Aguire left the coaching staff. I could see significant improvement in our shot selection and percentage when Aguire was here. He was a fantastic player, and he seemed to be able to communicate that same excellence to our bigs.

Since he left, our guys have slowly slipped away from those good, effective moves down low on the block and inched, slowly but surely, farther and farther away.

I agree with all of that.

I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times; Jermaine has become to comfortable with that 15 foot jumper. I like having him able to shoot that jumper, but I don't want him to rely on it so much. Jermaine is wildly athletic for a big man and if he just worked on his footing in the low post, his shooting percentage would go up significantly. It's shooting those contested jumpers that have brought his shooting percentage down. You can say it was his shoulder all you want, but even when he was healthy, he was taking those bad shots.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

This thread is in the "almost dead" category but I wanted to mention that I've read several articles where Carlisle wanted JO to work on his outside shot and take more of them to keep him from getting beat up as much inside.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

I think JO fits in great in our team. The only worry I have concerning him are his ability to lead and if necessary defer that lead to others and secondly his mental toughness sometimes.

With those thoughts in mind I think the only thing we REALLY need to do this summer, besides drafting a PG is contracting a veteran player who can keep his cool during critical stages in the game and who can show some leadership of his own.

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

That's the thing that bothers me. It's alway, 'In a year or two' with him. We've been saying that enough. And maybe passing to Reggie, and that's it. He never passes the ball off when he's being doubled. He just spins to an off balanced jumper that clanks iron. If he would pass the ball more, then I'd be more apt to like him.

Also, if he would take some charges, get some steals, and be more of a 1-on-1 defender. I think the system Indiana uses makes O'neal look more than he is. If the Pacers didn't dump the ball down low to him all the time, would he still get his points?

If Jermaine didn't step out to shoot 15 foot jumpers all the time, would he get more rebounds? Jermaine use to dominate the boards and now he's becoming more and more accustomed to standing out there and letting the opposing teams bring in defensive boards. He's hell on the defensive boards for the Pacers, but seamingly does nothing for us with offensive boards. Extra possessions are key and it's time he learns that.

So what you MEAN is he's not a top 5 player????? Ok.
But you said he's not our franchise player. Yes he is.
THere's HOW many teams in the league??? That means that not every teams franchise player is in the top 10 in the league. That would include Jermaine.
He's still the best we've got.
And a whole lot better than you think.
Get it?

Re: I'll say it, I DON'T think Jermaine is our franchise player

Hey, I realize that people disagree with me, and that's fine with me. I'm just saying what I think. If my post is to lame to reply to, then why do you reply to it? I'm not out to start any wars with anyone, so we can leave our respective tsks to ourselves and back our posts with substance and not slanderous remarks.