There continues to be great progress in Memphis in on investigating the alleged molestations of Chris Carwile and the alleged cover up by the pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church, thanks to the bravery of three of the alleged victims. You can read the previous stories here,here and here.

Memphis news media covering the story.

Other news media are picking up on the story. Here is the WMC Action News 5 report from last evening.

Maria Hallas had Part 2 from the I Team investigation. I was thrilled to discover that she contacted Boz Tchividjian and SNAP which I recommended that she do during our conversation last week. Here is the link to the following I Team story. We are having trouble getting the embed code to work so you must click on the link. I will embed the video later if we can get it to work.

SNAP released a statement condemning the lack of action on the part of the church.

Police reports have been filed. An alleged child molester walks free. His reported victims are suffering. And other kids are at risk. So officials at the main public library downtown and the Church at Schilling Farms in Collierville (formerly Immanuel Baptist Church) must take aggressive steps to reach out to anyone else who may have seen, suspected or suffered crimes by Chris Carwile or cover ups by church officials.

Rev. Scott Payne admits he didn’t call police and now asks forgiveness. But forgiveness is premature. Payne must help police, prosecutors and Carwile’s victims first, by doing everything he can to help ensure that Carwile is successfully prosecuted. The same is true of current and former supervisors and colleagues of Carwile’s.

Church officials should make pulpit announcements, use church websites, post notices in church buildings and mail congregants (current and former) begging anyone with information or suspicions to come forward, get help, safeguard kids and call law enforcement.

Rev. Payne’s excuses for acting selfishly, recklessly and deceitfully ring hollow. And ignorance of the law is no excuse.

We hope law enforcement will investigate Rev. Payne, see if he’s done this in other cases and prosecute him if possible. We hope other church figures in Memphis will publicly denounce Rev. Payne and send a clear signal to their employees and congregants that ignoring or hiding suspicions of child sex crimes is immoral and won’t be tolerated.

Finally, we applaud Kenny Stubblefield, Brook Hansen and Michael Hansen who say Carwile assaulted them as boys in the 1990s. Without their courage and compassion, Carwile would still be “under the radar” with access to kids. A credibly accused sex offender has been exposed only because they found the strength to step forward and honor their civic and moral duty to protect others by reporting crimes.

No matter what library or church officials do or don’t do, we urge every single person who saw, suspected or suffered child sex crimes and cover ups in Catholic churches or institutions to protect kids by calling police, get help by calling therapists, expose wrongdoers by calling attorneys, and be comforted by calling support groups like ours. This is how kids will be safer, adults will recover, criminals will be prosecuted, cover ups will be deterred and the truth will surface.

SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, is the world’s oldest and largest support group for clergy abuse victims. SNAP was founded in 1988 and has more than 20,000 members. Despite the word “priest” in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, and Protestant ministers. Our website is SNAPnetwork.org

If and when these victims are willing to tell their stories, we will hopefully be posting them here. In the meantime, TWW sends our prayers their way.

Pastor Scott Payne holds a leadership position in the Southern Baptist Convention.

The SBC leadership, unfortunately, continues to demonstrate that proper gender roles are far more valuable than protecting our children. Christa Brown of Stop Baptist Predators tweeted Amy Smith and had this to say.

There is much more happening and we will keep our readers updated as new information is received.

According to some pastors, gay kids, under the age of consent, like be molested.

This hurts my heart to actually say that there are church leaders who actually believe that sickening statement. Let's revisit Michael Hansen's brave testimony from last week. I have not been able to get his words out of my mind. I have been replaying them over and over again, especially at night when I am trying to sleep. How could this happen in the church? How could a kid feel so alone in his struggles in the church? And then to be molested by a man in that church…

At the time of his molestation, Michael had been struggling with his sexuality since the age of 11. He was desperately trying to hide this battle since he believed that he would be punished by the church. Frankly, he is probably correct as you will see. (Remember that Thomas, in this narrative, has now been identified as Scott Payne, the lead pastor.)

The toxic theology of the Southern Baptist Church led me to believe that I brought the assault onto myself — that God was punishing me for being gay. I was completely and utterly ashamed. Before the incident, I had already prayed several times that God would “fix” me. That He would cure me of my homosexual desires. After my assault, those prayers rose to a crescendo of unrelenting, tear-soaked pleas for relief.

Now, you may be wondering if I told anyone I was molested by a church employee. No, I didn’t. Not at first. I was afraid that if anyone found out, I would be outed as a queer to my family, my friends, and my church. You see, anxiety was creeping in and consuming me. Crippling depression took over my psyche, like a virus commandeering an operating system.

Another thing I vividly remember: Sleep was easy. Waking up was the real nightmare. Each moment a tailspin of unyielding angst and paranoia. To be awake was to be paralyzed and desperately afraid.

…On October 17, 2015, I was catching up with an old friend (and fellow victim) while I was back home for the Memphis vs. Ole Miss football game. (Go Tigers!) We started talking about everything that happened then: our regrets, our anger, and how our lives have been inextricably linked to those events.

My friend told me something that made all of those feelings of nausea, fear, and anger come flooding back. Apparently, Thomas told him some time later that it was all different for me — that because I’m gay, I wanted it to happen and liked it. In other words: I had it coming. (Sound familiar?)

…On October 23, 2015, we collectively sent Thomas a detailed, more-than-gracious letter (signed by me) seeking answers. Did he really say that because I’m gay I had it coming? It was an excruciating ordeal to pen that gory five-page note, but it was something we had to finally do.

9 years ago, Michael attempted suicide.

Nine years ago this week my father found me in a tub full of bloody bath water, my wrists slashed by a razor blade. The ER doctor said I that while I had cut deep enough and in the right direction, my blood clotted so quickly that it thwarted my suicide attempt. During the subsequent mandatory 24-hour psychiatric evaluation, I blamed my actions on fear of failure and career stagnation. In reality, I was severely depressed. I had been living for years in a perpetual hell of anxiety, self-loathing, and debilitating anxiety. Left to fester for the better part of the a decade, those sinister beasts will get the best of any man. This is the story of what led to that event, and how I became who I am today.

Shauna and Billy and Lakeside Bible Church: Billy was allegedly accused of being a homosexual and the pastor in church allegedly said his rape was consensual.

She was house sitting when her life changed. Another boy, Joe, who was 15 and whose family are members of Lakeside stopped by to hang out with Billy. They went into a room to play video games. Shauna decided to check on them and walked in on Billy being sodomized by Joe. She called an Elder (with a capital E) for help. He advised her to call the police which she did. Ken Ramey arrived around the same time the police did. He tried to talk with Billy at several points but was not allowed to because the police were concerned that he had talked with Joe and did not want his thoughts to influence Billy's report.

During the investigation, it was discovered that pornography had been viewed on the TV and that some sort of instrument had been used by Joe to threaten Billy with bodily harm if he said anything.

Billy was brought to the hospital. There it was ascertained that he had been sexually molested due to the obvious tearing, bruising etc. This was a difficult night for Billy. He was distraught and needed help in lying still for the rape examination. He was also put on medications to prevent the possibility of disease being transmitted by the rape. These meds made Billy sick for the weeks they had to be administered. Also, Billy understandably developed a great deal of fear and experienced nightmares for a long time. His mother made sure that he received good counseling from professionals as opposed to the "competent to counsel" fans at Lakeside.

When Billy and Shauna returned to Lakeside for the first time since the rape, they both saw Joe coming out of the Youth Area. This is significant as you will see momentarily. Then, Joe came into the church with his parents, walking right past Billy. At one point, he turned and gazed threateningly in Billy's direction. This caused Billy no small amount of fear, and he insisted in being taken out of church.

Shauna requested that Joe be prevented from attending the same church service as Billy, but this request was allegedly denied. Apparently, Joe was being counseled by the church, and they allegedly had no concerns about any further rapes. It is alleged that the church membership was not notified of the potential danger of Joe's behavior.

Joe eventually pled guilty to aggravated sexual assault. He received probation and was told to get counseling. Allegedly Shauna was encouraged by the church not to attend the sentencing by Ken Ramey. She did not know that during the hearing she could have requested restitution from the rapist's family for medications, counseling etc.

Allegedly, Shauna began to hear from church members that this incident was merely consensual behavior between two boys and that it was a sin. She was also told that members had heard that her son was a homosexual.

Rape and molestation are not a sex acts! They are violent assaults and who wants to be assaulted?

I cannot believe that I even have to raise these questions.

– Is he saying that If a young teen girl is molested by a 20 something male youth pastor, it's rape; but if a boy is molested by a male youth pastor, it is consensual?
– What would he say if Michael had been molested by a female? ​– Was Scott Payne saying that all gay kids like being sexually exploited so long as it is with a same sex offender? – Why would a gay teen want to be molested against his will?
– Was Ramey implying that, if Billy was gay young teen, then sexual molestation is not a problem so long as its performed by a male?

No wonder the church has such a bad reputation within the LGBTQIA population. The assumptions of these pastors/churches is utterly revolting and I suspect it is more common that anyone wants to imagine. Don't they get it?

Rape and molestation are not a sex acts!

Sexual assault is NEVER the victim’s fault. Sexual assault is a violent attack on an individual, not a spontaneous crime of sexual passion. For a victim, it is a humiliating and degrading act. No one “asks” for or deserves this type of attack. link

No woman (man) fantasizes about being raped. Fantasies about aggressive sex may be controlled and turned off if they become threatening. In rape, the victim is unable to control the violence and stop it.

Why do pastors and others engage in victim blaming?

– Could it be that pastors actually believe that if they pray enough or tell people how to be godly enough that somehow it will make their church members invulnerable to violent crimes?
– Could it be that pastors believe that they themselves are invulnerable to violent crimes?
– Could it be a way for pastors to place the blame on another in order to avoid facing the fact that they have screwed up by allowing a pedophile in their midst?
Or, even worse,
– Could it be that pastors blame the victims because they knew about the pedophile and believed that God would heal them so they kept them around? – Do some pastors harbor secret beliefs that God is justly punishing the victim?

Victim blaming is not just about avoiding culpability—it's also about avoiding vulnerability. The more innocent a victim, the more threatening they are. Victims threaten our sense that the world is a safe and moral place, where good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. When bad things happen to good people, it implies that no one is safe, that no matter how good we are, we too could be vulnerable. The idea that misfortune can be random, striking anyone at any time, is a terrifying thought, and yet we are faced every day with evidence that it may be true.

…Lerner theorized that these victim blaming tendencies are rooted in the belief in a just world, a world where actions have predictable consequences and people can control what happens to them. It is captured in common phrases like "what goes around comes around" and "you reap what you sow." We want to believe that justice will come to wrongdoers, whereas good, honest people who follow the rules will be rewarded. Research has found, not surprisingly, that people who believe that the world is a just place are happier and less depressed. But this happiness may come at a cost—it may reduce our empathy for those who are suffering, and we may even contribute to their suffering by increasing stigmatization.

Sick thinking in the church

No one wants to be physically assaulted. If a man attacked a child on the street and beat them up, everyone would be up in arms, screaming for the guy to be locked up. But, if they are physically assaulted by being raped, some may believe they wanted it or provoked it. If they are gay, they wanted it even more. This despicable and deeply harmful thinking must be eradicated from the church.

To Michael:

Michael, I only wish I knew you when you were struggling. I would have wrapped my arms around you and given you the help and support that you needed and deserved. I am sick that your church failed you in so many ways. Thank you for caring enough to step forward to help others. I am profoundly grateful and am in awe of your strength and selflessness.

To the SBC pastor who believe gay kids "want to be molested:"

In the Physician's Oath there is a phrase I often think about. "First, do no harm." I think this should be in an oath that all pastors take. If Scott Payne actually said that Michael wanted to be raped because he was gay, then Payne, along with others like him, have no business being in the pulpit. Until this stuff stops, the church is truly not safe for children and all those who struggle.

Jeremiah got it right.

"They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace." Jeremiah 6:14 NIV

Whatever the reason may be, the “pastor” in question is making excuses; like you’ve said, no minor wants to be assaulted, regardless of their orientation or gender identity. With that said, taken in isolation from the terrible realness of what happened to the assault victims in this case, the claim in question hardly shocks me. It is, after all, just one brick in a wall of slanderous things I’ve heard preachers claim about people like Michael and I, and after a while – for those like myself who have the particular privilege of having not been abused – this stuff fades into background noise. Having said that, it’s difficult enough to process as a teen without the specter of abuse; I can’t imagine how much harder it was for Michael and others in his situation.

Rev. Scott Payne admits he didn’t call police and now asks forgiveness. But forgiveness is premature. Payne must help police, prosecutors and Carwile’s victims first, by doing everything he can to help ensure that Carwile is successfully prosecuted. The same is true of current and former supervisors and colleagues of Carwile’s.

This is very true and I’m praying he will do so.

Research has found, not surprisingly, that people who believe that the world is a just place are happier and less depressed. But this happiness may come at a cost—it may reduce our empathy for those who are suffering, and we may even contribute to their suffering by increasing stigmatization.

This is thought provoking, concerning the church. It strikes at our basic understanding of what it means to be believers. Does God provide a safe bubble for us in the midst of this troubled world? Or does he want us here to make the world a better place? They will know we are Christians by our charmed lives? Or by our love?

Research has found, not surprisingly, that people who believe that the world is a just place are happier and less depressed. But this happiness may come at a cost—it may reduce our empathy for those who are suffering, and we may even contribute to their suffering by increasing stigmatization.

On New Years’ Day 1984, I had to help talk down someone after a rape attempt. She sure didn’t seem to be enjoying it. Full hysterical panic reaction.

Police reports were filed, but nothing ever came of it. Attacker had covered his tracks too well. There was a rumor that someone who knew her who also had biker connections arranged a little arm-and-leg-breaking party for the perp, but no confirmation either way.

At least the Memphis “pastor” admitted he goofed up. There are far too many victims of disgraced “hyper authoriaton pastors(going forwards those pastors will be referred to as HAP”. It would seem to make sense for the HAP to come clean if they actually cared for those they were ” serving”. The Apostle Paul penned we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. HAP won’t even lend an assist on the personal struggles as it appears they just want everyone in more slavery chains…just an observance!

I’ve been exploring the Highpoint site. They have a “teaching” pastor, who also does church classes on marriage. His name is Andy Savage and he has a blog. He does weddings and refuses to let couples write their own wedding vows. In the vows couples must agree to if he marries them, the bride must vow to submit to her husband “as unto the Lord”.

Ironically, at the top of the Mid-South Baptist Association webpage, Mid-South proclaims its purpose is “connecting diverse churches by serving as a relational hub.” I can’t imagine any reason more critical for “connecting diverse churches” than for the sharing of information about clergy who have been accused of molesting kids. Yet, Mid-South failed miserably.

This case tragically illustrates the reality of how easy it is in Baptistland for a credibly-accused clergy child molester to migrate to find new prey. This is true even when the churches are part of the same local association, as they were in this case. And this is why Baptists so desperately need denominational systems — such as a database — to facilitate the sharing of information among churches.

Could it be that pastors actually believe that if they pray enough or tell people how to be godly enough that somehow it will make their church members invulnerable to violent crimes?

I think a lot of it is based on this rationale.

On this blog about a year ago, I quoted an article where a church safety guy was interviewed. In all his talks with church people, he says a lot of them have this view that church grounds (the building with the steeple) will be supernaturally protected by God, so that if you’re on or in a church building, you wont be mugged or whatever.

He said that’s not the case. He’s worked with churches before where people came into them and attacked people or hanged themselves.

But I think this mentality carries over to many areas of life with a lot of Christians.

A lot of them assume or want to think if they follow all the rules, pray enough, are godly enough etc and so forth, that nothing bad will ever happen to them.

This also is the case with secular workplace abuse. I read so many books on that topic after I was harassed on one job I had.

One book I read about workplace abuse said one main reason a lot of co-workers won’t hop to your defense, even if they see you are being singled out for abuse by a boss, is that they mask their fear of confronting the boss on your behalf by thinking you must deserve the abuse. They rationalize away their cowardice.

They find it easier to think you “deserve” the harassment than to actually defend you or to start making plans to leave and get a job someplace else themselves.

I see that type of thinking among a lot of Christians, both in and out of church environments.

My mother taught me that love meant actually doing stuff for other people, like mowing their lawn for them when they are sick and can’t get out of bed, and so on.

In the years since my mother has passed, and I’ve been to Christians for help (like for dealing with the grief in the first few years after her passing), Christians would quickly dodge me, or get rid of me as fast as they could. Or utter platitudes.

Those Christians would say they cared about me with their mouths, but they didn’t put any time or effort into showing it by putting their so-called love into action.

This is the total opposite of the example my mother set for me in regards to Christianity, so I’ve been very disappointed and shocked by this in other Christians since her passing.

And it seems to be a pretty common phenomenon with Christians concerning other things – spiritual abuse, people going through divorces, people with mental health problems, marital abuse, etc.

It’s like that verse in the New Testament that tells Christians don’t just tell a starving cold guy, “Be warm and well fed” and be along your way, but stop and give the guy a sandwich and a warm coat

victim blaming tendencies are rooted in the belief in a just world, a world where actions have predictable consequences and people can control what happens to them. It is captured in common phrases like “what goes around comes around” and “you reap what you sow.” We want to believe that justice will come to wrongdoers, whereas good, honest people who follow the rules will be rewarded. Research has found, not surprisingly, that people who believe that the world is a just place are happier and less depressed. But this happiness may come at a cost—it may reduce our empathy for those who are suffering, and we may even contribute to their suffering by increasing stigmatization.

And this exact kind of thinking is detailed, exposed, and condemned in the book of Job. But how often is Job preached on in this country anymore?

As I grow older and the weather gets colder I am reminded of my job and the long-term price I am paying because of the massive physical injuries to my hands, back, feet, elbows etc. I bring it up because these answers from some of these pastors reminded me of some of the stuff I was told. Many of the folks I worked with had very traumatic brain injuries do to horrid abuse, I cant bring myself to really go into it even though it was decades ago. I prayed so hard, begged God, often all hours of the night to intervene. I did not even hear crickets. That is evil of me I know I have no right to have any expectations from God other than eternal torment and that is one a good day, basically, that sums up the “theology” I had drilled into my soul.

One of my terrors was that many of these folks engaged in “personal activities” (hoping to avoid offense), which I was taught, this is a horrible God hating sin and no truly redeemed person ever continues in such vile filthy disgusting behavior. Jesus would deliver them from any continual sin 1 john book of John, Hebrews etc. They would also cuss and swear during a behavior episode which was also a sin and an eternal offense to a Holy God enthroned on high. Yes it was said to me that way at times. I would pray God deliver folks, I never prayed at work or over people out of respect for other people’s faith traditions and because I was on state time, I took that very seriously. Another sin I was rebuked for at times. I also kept strict rules of confidentiality etc. It is why I still do not use even first names etc. But many of these folks I worked with could be extremely violent and could, and often did, hurt each other and folks helping them. I never took offense at it I always felt like I wish I could offer a better way to help them communicate. Funny when they had those avenues and good interventions were used the aggressive behaviors always subsided and you saw the true glimpse of humanity and bravery I was always so in awe of.

Because the folks I worked with did not have the cognitive ability to delineate doctrines such as the trinity, the substitutionary death of Christ, the Five Sola’s, the Lord’s supper and just a symbol and in no way anything else, eschatology, ecclesiology, soteriology etc. was another reason God could not possibly be working in their lives. But He was, I saw it, Daily. I mean the bravery and struggle to fight through the cognitive and mental health issues to just smile and give a kind response to laugh and show such wonderment at the simple things in the world. To be in awe of string, I call it string theory, long story.

I mean a literal reading of the Gospels and Paul do make it clear that a redeemed person will not continue in sin, the bible makes no real plane “caveats ” for cognitive issues, stroke survivors, people dealing with dementia, car accidents, brain aneurysms, sugar imbalances, chemical imbalances, dehydration, hormonal imbalances, brain tumours, Alzheimer’s, Brain injury, seizures, many varieties of mental health issues, …..The bible makes no mention of these at all. It says you will not continue to sin and that Christ is able to deliver you from any sin no matter what if you are truly His. Can you see my dilemma? It is one main reason I adopted sort of a functional open theistic / universalism I could find no other framework to see God and still believe in His goodness.

My whole point is that literalism puts God and us into these little categories that don’t fit what we experience in the real world. I believe it is this black and white thinking that makes pastors and others say and do such stupid things to victims because they need something to blame to make it all fit in their tenuous world view. I am so sorry for what happened to these people. Some of the abuse the folks I have worked with for so many years is just horrible on top of all the other issues they had to deal with. Forgive the length of the post.

My whole point is that literalism puts God and us into these little categories that don’t fit what we experience in the real world. I believe it is this black and white thinking that makes pastors and others say and do such stupid things to victims because they need something to blame to make it all fit in their tenuous world view.

You’ve hit the nail on the head with this statement!

This is the root of a lot of the problems I have with evangelical christianity. Many (I dare say the majority based on my experience) believe in an inerrant, infallible scripture.

Based on the black and white reading of the bible, God either condemned homosexuals (among others) to death or he didn’t. If he didn’t the bible is wrong. If he did, then he is unjust – and yes, I’ll state that to him (if he exists) before he consigns me to whatever punishment he’s got in store for me.

And then you’ve got Jesus saying helpful statements like Matthew 5:17 about not coming to abolish the law. And Paul joins the pile-on in Romans.

My wife’s cousin was routinely beaten by her uncle to “make a man out of him”. No doubt many Christians see abuse as somehow justified biblically through this sick lens.

And yet these same Christians will eat pulled pork sandwiches at Subway or belly up to the all you can eat shrimp festival at Red Lobster. The hypocrisy is stunning.

I applaud the victims for speaking out. Their courage will no doubt inspire other victims to speak out as well. I applaud TWW for speaking out – this is one of the few places where Christianity and rationality are not mutually exclusive.

I don’t care what the bible says. I know right from wrong. Pass the prawns please!

Michael’s story reminds me of how often God intervenes to help people to live when they still have work to do in this world for good:

“The ER doctor said I that while I had cut deep enough and in the right direction, my blood clotted so quickly that it thwarted my suicide attempt.”

now people can say that was coincidence, the clotting action speeding up, but I don’t believe in coincidences like that anymore. I see this as ‘intervention’ on the Divine scale: a chance to live and to do what can only be a needed good work that only Michael himself could accomplish, as victim and as witness, to encourage others to come forward and speak up.

Michael survived his suicide attempt (I believe by the grace of God);
and went on to honorably speak out for the sake of other victims in need of encouragement.

For this, I give thanks to the Lord.

Sometimes, when people live after thinking they will die, they realize that there is a purpose for them to fulfill in this world. I think Michael had insight into his value as a witness who barely survived and as a voice of encouragement for others who suffer. There is nothing more honorable than taking a stand openly against evil and facing it down. Then, the ‘victim’ is no longer a victim. He has become a man among men whose names are counted as ‘servants of the Lord’.

It’s like that verse in the New Testament that tells Christians don’t just tell a starving cold guy, “Be warm and well fed” and be along your way, but stop and give the guy a sandwich and a warm coat

sometimes I look at how people decry what they call ‘works salvation’ when it is only simple human kindness. And I think more and more, this:
that those who follow Christ belong to the ‘tribe’ of people who can forgive almost anything but unkindness to others, the abandonment of a sense of ‘kindred’ recognition of our own humanity being connected up to how we encountered and treated one another, especially those who are fragile and therefore in need of kindness most.

On this blog about a year ago, I quoted an article where a church safety guy was interviewed. In all his talks with church people, he says a lot of them have this view that church grounds (the building with the steeple) will be supernaturally protected by God, so that if you’re on or in a church building, you wont be mugged or whatever.

Like one interaction with a Vegan the last time I was on Prostate Cancer Watch diagnostic limbo:
“You eat MEAT, don’t you? You gave yourself Cancer because YOU EAT MEAT!”
i.e. Waving *MY* Veganism as a magic shield against cancer.
(Incidentally, all biopsies NEGATIVE.)

If I could, I would give all 3 of these men a big hug. The institution they believed in failed them. And no one was there to stand up there for them and be there for them. That is so sad. I was raised in a family that always helped out others. We were always the ones doing things in church, no matter the job. My grandfather would invite visitors to the church over for Sunday dinner. There was always food to share. My own family always helps others out. Daisy, I wish I could have been there for you in your time of need. So also goes for Shauna and Billy. A lot of us here feel the same way. I’m not going to judge someone for the sexual orientation. That’s not for me to do. But what is up to me, is to just my neighbor as myself. No matter their religion, sexual orientation, creed or other.

Interesting these guys don’t like muscular women. How do you think they feel about Serena Williams?

(Full disclosure: She’s my celebrity crush.)

I wonder if there’s a connection between their misogyny and their ecclesiology, too. Given that the Church is the bride of Christ, and all. The Church (as a whole) is to be totally subjugated and passive to the Alter Christus* manly men in charge. Having a messed-up view of women seems to go hand in hand with authoritarian ecclesiologies. When they see a muscular woman, perhaps it reminds them of the idea that maybe the whole Church (including the laity) has Her own dignity and does not need a strongman to lord it over her.

* “Another Christ”. The idea of the priest as another Christ was advanced by some scholastics. History seems to be repeating itself now, but this time within the evangelical-industrial complex.

This is the last straw. Look, I get the sinfulness in the world and throughout history, but to say that the victim had it coming is too much for me.

No wonder I am so done with the institutional church. No wonder I tell people I am a Christian, but offer no denomination or building anymore. I just can’t go there anymore.

This is just disgusting and besmirches our Lord and Savior’s name.

I confess right here that the fleshly part of me keeps whispering may they rot in hell. I know I am no better for that thought and forgiveness is always available, but as some pointed out, I don’t even think anyone saying they had it coming is saved.

How can a Christian, Christian leader no less, say that, let alone think it? I am sorry if this has rambled, but this story may be the cake-topper, so to speak. I know you have written some doozies, but this one really gets me. To not only blame the victim, but say they had it coming, is, well, I don’t know what to write. Just disgusted with the organization of the church.

I know I sound like I am impugning all Christ followers, but I am not. I am just really saddened that this could even be said.

Where is the meekness, the crying with one when one is crying? The rejoicing when one rejoices? This is just dead. Not even faith. Not even Christ-likeness.

– Is he saying that If a young teen girl is molested by a 20 something male youth pastor, it’s rape; but if a boy is molested by a male youth pastor, it is consensual?
That 13/14 year old girl is just a jezebel and should apologize to the molesters wife, probably, according to church ‘leaders’.

Because then the “church” doesn’t have to kick in gear and do anything. They can continue to be lazy instead of confronting and dealing with hard truths.

I really have a bone about the”pasters”saying he stilled loved the men.What makes him think that all they went through if they even wanted his “love”;like it was something special.I have been in a 8 year condo fight where I and 2 neighbors were done dirty over a h2o drainage issue.It was finally resolved to our benefit but I still want nothing to do with the fundamental Christian board.They go by and smile and wave when I made it clear that we dislike them.I finally confronted them and asked what kind of Christian would screw someone (which he admitted)then expect that he was entitled to a friendly relationship with us.I told him that we were not the same kind of Christian and he needed to pray about this and leave us alone.These people use”love” to control,and his statement gave me the Willy’s,ANYBODY ELSE?

Could it be that pastors actually believe that if they pray enough or tell people how to be godly enough that somehow it will make their church members invulnerable to violent crimes?

Yes, I think this can be a major reason. I know of a situation where church members went to a very high crime area of the city to witness and help single mothers believing that God would place a “hedge of protection” around them.

I know of a situation where church members went to a very high crime area of the city to witness and help single mothers believing that God would place a “hedge of protection” around them.

how is it that these people put the problem back on God to solve rather than offer their help for those poor mothers …. it’s as though they were washing their hands of responsibility, having seen the need and saying their ‘words’ and walking away satisfied with themselves having utterly abandoned the mothers

….. it would have been better for the souls of these people if they had never gone at all, rather than to see the misery and walk past it preaching a strange ‘other’ gospel so empty of real Christian witness

Daisy wrote:
It’s like that verse in the New Testament that tells Christians don’t just tell a starving cold guy, “Be warm and well fed” and be along your way, but stop and give the guy a sandwich and a warm coat

sometimes I look at how people decry what they call ‘works salvation’ when it is only simple human kindness

In such circumstances, I often use a paraphrase of a line from Babylon-5:

“You have a saying: ‘I’ll Pray For You.’ [or other Christianese platitude]
We also have a saying: PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!”

Does God provide a safe bubble for us in the midst of this troubled world? Or does he want us here to make the world a better place? They will know we are Christians by our charmed lives? Or by our love?

That yearning for security can lead to some very self-centered behavior. The SBC refuses to do what is right for the sake of the innocent children of its member Churches, all the while KNOWING that their failure to act will have consequences. It’s like that town in the legend of St. George and the Dragon:
“The town had a small lake with a plague-bearing dragon living in it and poisoning the countryside. To appease the dragon, the people of Silene fed it two sheep every day. When they ran out of sheep they started feeding it their children”

I think the SBC needs to do what is right. The leadership can’t keep valuing its own welfare and reputation over the safety of its children.

Sooner or later, the SBC will have to face the truth about itself if it continues to avoid responsibility ….. it will be seen as no better than the town of Silene that kept itself untouched by plague by sacrificing its own children to the dragon.

I disagree with Christa Brown in this respect – I do not think Baptists are bad at communicating incidents of sexual predation. I think the SBC has a clear history of actively covering it up and excusing it. Let’s not pretend that this is anything other than wickedness.

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
I think you don’t realize that Christa has been working for a long time to try to get the SBC to have a registry of clerical perpetrators so that member Churches can know who NOT to hire as staff.

Christa’s work can be seen on her blog ‘Stop Baptist Predators’. Go take a look.
She’s on the side of the angels, believe me.

I think you don’t realize that Christa has been working for a long time to try to get the SBC to have a registry of clerical perpetrators so that member Churches can know who NOT to hire as staff.

The SBC is controlled by men. I truly do applaud Christa’s dedication, but I believe the SBC will have to change from the top down before her work can see fruit. Dr. F. P. is right. SBC bigwigs will continue on the current course, unless something happens to force change. Reports of abuse happening in SBC Baptist churches is fairly commonplace now, and higher in the SBC does nothing.

Kenny, Brook, Michael, Shauna, and anyone else who has been abused in a church (or a religious institution, such as a school) or has had an abuser protected by a church:
Keep hammering away! Tell your stories to anyone who will listen! IMHO, I don’t believe anything will be done inside of these religious organizations until they are exposed and reprimanded by the public.

The Bible does not paper over bad behavior; it exposed it. Christains are called to be light, and that light should shine out of the church, after the church is brightly lit up! To many if these stories are about leaders creating darkness within the church.

SBC bigwigs will continue on the current course, unless something happens to force change.

The thing is that the ‘power’ and ‘control’ of all bigwigs is fed by the contribution$ of the grateful bled. If the excuse is that change is needed and it must come from the ‘top down’ and nothing is happening, a grass-roots phenonemnon is sometimes necessary. 🙂

If the excuse is that change is needed and it must come from the ‘top down’ and nothing is happening, a grass-roots phenonemnon is sometimes necessary.

I think that’s the saddest thing about it all. Most Southern Baptists either have no clue or they are willfully sticking their heads in the sand. There’s hardly any pastors standing up against it, probably in fear of their pensions and investments, which are controlled by the “top”.

SBC bigwigs will continue on the current course, unless something happens to force change.

When I first read this thread about the SBC, I thought that maybe some of these issues should be on Russell Moore’s agenda at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. When I went to their “about” page, however, I realized that the ERLC’s focus is outward toward the “culture” and the “public square”. I cannot think of any corresponding organized effort within the SBC to promote “human flourishing” within the convention and/or the local church. In other words, while they have an organization dedicated to policing ethics within the culture, I am not aware of any such structure that is internally focused. If there is one that I am overlooking, please let me know.

while they have an organization dedicated to policing ethics within the culture

As Todd Wilhelm has noted on his blog “Thou Art the Man” (linked to TWW for easy access), the ERLC not only has a focus dedicated to policing ethics within the culture, they are increasingly focusing on imposing (neoconservative, in my opinion) political Biblical ethics on the world as well.

FW Rez wrote:
while they have an organization dedicated to policing ethics within the culture
As Todd Wilhelm has noted on his blog “Thou Art the Man” (linked to TWW for easy access), the ERLC not only has a focus dedicated to policing ethics within the culture, they are increasingly focusing on imposing (neoconservative, in my opinion) political Biblical ethics on the world as well.

Just like Taliban and Islamic State focus on imposing Islamic ethics on the world.

In other words, while they have an organization dedicated to policing ethics within the culture, I am not aware of any such structure that is internally focused. If there is one that I am overlooking, please let me know.

Since all the institutions are controlled by the hyper-Calvinists, they would just use this to indoctrinate. The primary source for this would be the yearly convention, but as the resolutions committee is hyper-Calvinist, they just reject anything that puts pressure on them. NAMB does also indoctrinates to some extent, and Lifeway through their Sunday School literature.

FW Rez wrote:
When I went to their “about” page, however, I realized that the ERLC’s focus is outward toward the “culture” and the “public square”.
i.e. Take Back America, Restore a Christian Nation, and Stick It To Those Heathens!

I don’t want to divert the conversation from the very important issues in this article but I think it should be clarified that Moore has attempted to distance himself from a lot of the “God and Country” rhetoric. I’m not a fan, but I wish more people were listening to Moore more on some of the issues that confront our society as he calls for the church to be more unified and unifying while our society is more and more divided.

The real answer is for Christians to act in a consistently Christ-like way within the local church. Sometimes, however, we need a prophetic voice such as T.B. Maston’s to remind us what that should look like.

The real answer is for Christians to act in a consistently Christ-like way within the local church. Sometimes, however, we need a prophetic voice such as T.B. Maston’s to remind us what that should look like.

I completely agree. ETS this week has been apparently been a smackdown of ESS, so I’m hoping someone comes out of that who has a voice strong enough to be heard.

ishy wrote:
ETS this week has been apparently been a smackdown of ESS, so I’m hoping someone comes out of that who has a voice strong enough to be heard.
I’d like to know more about this. Any links that you recommend?

Nancy2 is right, this church has dominionist written all over it. Chris and Karen Conlee are really into “leadership” and “church growth” which all seems to lead right down the NAR path. Chris tweets Ken Blanchard, Brian Houston, and Andy Stanley quotes which all seem very odd for a SBC pastor.

Now Bannon says he thinks “darkness is good” and that Satan and Darth Vader are positive moral examples. The alt-right movement he panders to cheered when Vladimir Putin passed an “anti-terrorism” law severely restricting religious activities, and supports Victor Orban even though he’s been going after churches that refuse to tie his nationalist party line.

Yet a lot of evangelical bigwigs are still carrying water for these people. When will rank-and-file evangelicals wake up and realize they’ve been fleeced and lied to, including by their own self-proclaimed leaders. Maybe evangelicalism needs a “drain the swamp” movement of its own. Or maybe it’s time to end evangelicalism as a separate movement and come home to the mainline churches (or, for those so inclined, Rome, Constantinople or Alexandria).

Neo-Cals will take note of this:
in the article, there is some mention of how people were accused of child abuse by children/victims, and the article supports the accused:
” “In the vast majority of reported cases of Satanic ritual abuse, it was the testimony of the allegedly abused children themselves that damned dozens of innocent people to lengthy prison sentences and a lifetime of social exile. However, subsequent review of these cases revealed that much of this testimony was obtained through coercion and suggestive interviewing techniques by overzealous social workers, and that these statements were rarely questioned by investigating officers.” There was never any hard evidence that any of it really happened.”

Breitbart is a piece of work. I dread the coming months and years, but I know many, many people who will not cave to evil and who will work for good in our country. At the grassroots of our country are many decent people who care deeply about doing what is right. So, tomorrow, I go the place where they offer ‘the table’ and I pray for those who are of good will to survive and to make a difference still.

@MidwesternEasterner
@Christiane
Isn’t it interesting how different people can read the same article and come to very different conclusions. I did not see it as a pro-satanist article. I found it to be a very informative article about a movement within a movement that is very much like the YRR-takeover of the SBC. The same article could have been written about the YRRs and the SBC. The main point is the impact of the internet:

The fact that the internet gives everyone a voice is great, but it also threatens everyone’s identity: there is no group immune to the possibility of some ideological vandal coming along and saying, “No, this is what your identity really means.” Nor is it immune to the wide-eyed and noble “reformer” who says the same thing. The difference between vandal and reformer, indeed, is very much in the eye of the beholder in the internet age. It’s a problem you have to deal with, Satanist or not.

As far as Breitbart being a piece of work, whether or not one agrees with the content posted on such sites, we should be glad that they exist. For example, all of the mainstream media was reporting pretty much the same predictions for who would win the election. This is what left so many people shocked by the results. Breitbart had quite a few articles showing that the polls which had been most accurate in the past were predicting a narrow DJT victory. It turned out that in this respect Breitbart published info that the MSM should also have been publishing. Had more people been made aware of those other polls it could have potentially changed voter behavior. Could the outcome have been different had more people known ahead of time? The people who were shocked should be protesting the MSM.

We all have a tendency to want to get input that we already agree with. I am personally grateful that sites exist on all sides that offer us more than what the MSM churns out because if forces us to think.

they are increasingly focusing on imposing (neoconservative, in my opinion) political Biblical ethics on the world as well.

It’s interesting that you should say that, because Todd accuses them of attempting to impose progressive politics on the church. I guess it just goes to show the danger involved in church organizations getting too close to politics- the ideological slant of the politics is in the eye of the beholder.

As Todd Wilhelm has noted on his blog “Thou Art the Man” (linked to TWW for easy access), the ERLC not only has a focus dedicated to policing ethics within the culture, they are increasingly focusing on imposing (neoconservative, in my opinion) political Biblical ethics on the world as well.

Which is why I bless Providence for the old dead white men who founded our Nation. They took steps to ensure that such men would never accrue that kind of power.

@ Ken F:
ah, yes …. meant to say
Steve Bannon is a piece of work. But still, ‘Breitbart’ is on record on many issues, as you know, and I cannot (excuse the pun) ‘white’ wash Breitbart for what it has turned lose in the way of certain issues, now being used by perpetrators of actions that now are excusing themselves because a certain candidate has won, and these perpetrators feel that now it is ‘allowed’ to pursue their attacks with impunity. Very sad, this.

When the damage is done and the evil has spent its venom, I can only hope that something remains of the honorable country I know and love. Emotional? absolutely 🙂

now being used by perpetrators of actions that now are excusing themselves because a certain candidate has won, and these perpetrators feel that now it is ‘allowed’ to pursue their attacks with impunity.

I don’t understand this comment. Are you saying that Breitbart put out info that directly caused perpetrators to attack people with impunity, meaning the attackers commited actual crimes but were not held accountable? I’ve seen quite a lot of info put out by Breitbart, but I’m not aware of actual examples of what you refer to that resulted in actual harm (other than deep philosophical disagreements). I do know that there have been report of crimes coming out of some of the protests, but I don’t think you are referring to those. I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m just trying to understand.