Moving Goalposts: Levels

Okay, so we've already talked a lot about the moving goalposts of introducing vertical progression to itemisation, adding profoundly obvious grind, and creating a divide between types of players. We've aired a lot of thoughts as to whether that was a good or bad thing. However, there was one thing that was subtly slipped into the AMA that I don't think we've talked about. In some regards, it's the elephant in the room.

The eventual and inevitable increase of the level cap to 90 and beyond.

[...] and we've always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.

Considering that vertical progression through itemisation is in, it's likely that the level cap will be raised with each expansion. This means that you're never going to be able to reach a power plateau to enjoy the game at, and that content will never be balanced around max stats (focusing on skill instead). However, those who like watching numbers go up will likely continue to get to watch numbers go up. And those who like having number-related goals will have that.

So how do you feel about this? And when both vertical progression via items and levels is in, what will GW2 become?

I love leveling in RPGs so I wouldn't mind seeing it, though I would actually be more than partial to "alternate" character progression except for gear treadmills (which aren't even true character progression to begin with).

However, the understanding many players have is that while there will likely never be a permanent power plateau, each new plateau would be easy enough to reach that it should be a non-issue for regular players just playing the game as they have always been doing up to that point.

To put it another way, if GW1 ever had been given level cap raises, they would probably be just as effortless to reach as the initial first 20 levels.

That statement alone has made me question the point of hunting down horizontal-progression based items. I went into GW2 with the idea of easily buying max gear and then playing for years, grinding pretty. It's how I played GW1 and I had insane fun with it.
But if the power plateau will be raised, I start to wonder why the hell would I be farming pretty if, when a new expansion comes out, I'll need to replace it - not because something would be prettier, but because the new items will be objectively better. This makes GW2 similar to how I play D3 - I would like my character to look amazing, but if ugly gear will have +1 better stats that the prettiest gear in the game, I'll be wearing the +1 gear. And while I absolutely adore D3, vertical progression based games have nowhere near the potential to keep me entertained as long as horizontal progression based ones do.

So that put a bit of a halt to my motivation to play GW2 - the game just isn't fun enough if I can't play Barbie in it.

Would not like it, at that point in time I'd probably quit the game, I've quit other MMOs because I've always hated the grind to re-gear myself at each maximum level increase (for example: Eden Eternal is quite horrible about this), so in the end I just quit

This makes GW2 similar to how I play D3 - I would like my character to look amazing, but if ugly gear will have +1 better stats that the prettiest gear in the game, I'll be wearing the +1 gear.

The answer is transmutation stones... for a fee, of course.

If max stayed at exotics that could be farmed in under a week, it wouldn't be so bad. Go through say 20 levels worth of new zones, leveling at roughly the old rate, then spend a bit of time and you're back at max stats, apply trans stones as desired. This ascended/infusion stuff throws a monkey wrench into that though, where you need to grind quite a bit more with every level cap raise to ensure you have max stats.

dusk. . . i think you are yet again, trying to stir up the GW2 community.

but just for shits and giggles, i honestly dont mind the gear progression and increased level cap. because im not like you. i wasnt spoiled up by GW1, every single mmo ive ever played (WoW, Rift, Aion, LotRO, FFXI, Tabula Rasa, SWTOR, WAR) has had increasing levels and gear progression.

T-Stones, in their current implementation and mostly due to ascended gear, have the exact same effect on me as waypoint fees. I could waste money on waypoint fees to get out of an area and play something more enjoyable, but since the fee feels like a punishment for doing that, I simply log out and only play characters when I feel like, or at least don't mind, playing in those specific areas.I've adapted to the restrictions, but sadly, I didn't take the way A.Net offered - gold sinks & cash shop. I took the path of caring and playing less.

but just for shits and giggles, i honestly dont mind the gear progression and increased level cap. because im not like you. i wasnt spoiled up by GW1, every single mmo ive ever played (WoW, Rift, Aion, LotRO, FFXI, Tabula Rasa, SWTOR, WAR) has had increasing levels and gear progression.

Or as I'd describe my view - my perception of games wasn't ruined by MMOs and that's why I don't see the need for vertical progression.

well you are fortunate i suppose. but think about it for a sec, you are part of a small percentage. GW1 players were a small niche crowd.

And GW2 players still are a niche crowd. The only difference was that GW1 catered to this niche crowd by offering it something that couldn't be found anywhere else on the market, while GW2 caters to its niche crowd by offering it things that can easily be found in other games out there. Not only that, other games actually do this better.

Or do we really think that a game, where designers spent years to bring it in line with the idea of horizontal progression will do vertical progression better than a game that is designed for it?

They said from the very beginning that lvl 80 would not be the highest level always, so it's not really a surprise. It's just when they do it and how they pull it off that matters

There is no additional impact to how the game is played now really, other than you have to go back to levelling

You just have to hope they balance the dynamic scaling and introduce more dungeons that aren't only limited to the new level cap or have dynamic scaling like fractals. You already have big disparity when level 80s go back in time wearing exotic gear. This would just grow if things dont get adjusted "properly".

The whole problem with the levels in this game is that the older content scales poorly. It was always known, as you said, the game wouldnt stop at 80. But as it is now, a level 80 going back to level 20 in exotic gear totally disrupts the game for those levelling/playing at that level range. Even unintentionally my thief can clusterbomb everything to death in 1 hit... But I have to get the hearts done and I do dynamic events for the daily while there..

Personally I don't want a level cap increase. It's just another way to bring more gear threadmill into the game. The bonus levels are not a problem, as I think I'd have reached lv80 3+ times already with my main. The problem is, you'll most likely need better gear (for example lv90) so the old gears will be useless, aka there goes the gear treadmill. Another problem is all the balance we'll have by then will be lost, from my past MMO experiences after increasing the level cap the balance just breaks a little and the devs have to tweak the skills all the time (yes I know that proper balance probably won't occur in any MMO tho). My last concern is that with higher level caps we need new high level zones. GW2 already lacks of pure 80 zones and we all know what happened with lower level zones.... I just can't imagine how will they implement higher level cap.

Personally I don't want a level cap increase. It's just another way to bring more gear threadmill into the game. The bonus levels are not a problem, as I think I'd have reached lv80 3+ times already with my main. The problem is, you'll most likely need better gear (for example lv90) so the old gears will be useless, aka there goes the gear treadmill. Another problem is all the balance we'll have by then will be lost, from my past MMO experiences after increasing the level cap the balance just breaks a little and the devs have to tweak the skills all the time (yes I know that proper balance probably won't occur in any MMO tho). My last concern is that with higher level caps we need new high level zones. GW2 already lacks of pure 80 zones and we all know what happened with lower level zones.... I just can't imagine how will they implement higher level cap.

The game as it is now, despite my above post, imo doesn't support more levels without making some considerations first:

1) Traits: Do we get more trait points? If so, are there more trait lines? More points than 30 to spend? 2) Stats: How will stats scale? At lower levels 1 point of precision is much more valuable than at 80 where you need over 20 points to get 1% crit. How will this be at higher levels above 80? This will make choices in trait trees, unless redesigned not as impacting as they originally wanted. The decision to go for synergies, boons and anything % based becomes much more attractive than gaining 300 points of precision which might give you only 10% crit increase, while you have to stomach less than desirable traits.3) Dynamic Scaling: will that be fixed or will a level 90 or level 100 only have to look at a level 5 mob and it dies. No need to even unshealth your weapon.4) will sPVP be adjusted?5) WvW boosted even higher?6) More crafting levels, more throwaway items? Reworking of crafting system? More recipes? 7) more utilities skills? Or first balance out what we have? How well will they scale?

I think gear treadmill is the last consideration when we look at a level cap increase. The entire game system as I see it, does not really support new levels.

They could easily increase the level cap to allow players even more customization without increasing gear level. But this would require reworking a lot of things. Likewise, dont increase the available traits/skills but increase gear would be another way. Or both.. Either way, it would be a seemingly lot of work to balance.

I remember them saying they'd talk about it and were vague about it but nothing set in stone.

Now that I think about it, if gear is as readily accessible to get then as exotics are to get now, then I'd be happy with it. Kinda makes me wonder why they're bothering with Ascended NOW and not for the expansion.

To be honest, I regard increasing the level cap as a lesser evil. Higher levels in an expansion tend to be something that's relatively easy to get to, and if it comes with extra trait points, etc, you actually get to do new things with it rather than simply arbitrarily raising your numbers (and raising the numbers of the mobs likewise making it a zero-sum game).

There'd be an expectation of new gear, which will devalue the old gear with nice skins, which is a shame.

Contrast that to Ascended, which at a big stack of items per slot are definitely not something that's quick and easy to get to... and, furthermore, if that trend is carried through, will turn into something you have to grind for all over again every time they raise the cap.

To be honest, I regard increasing the level cap as a lesser evil. Higher levels in an expansion tend to be something that's relatively easy to get to, and if it comes with extra trait points, etc, you actually get to do new things with it rather than simply arbitrarily raising your numbers (and raising the numbers of the mobs likewise making it a zero-sum game).

There'd be an expectation of new gear, which will devalue the old gear with nice skins, which is a shame.

Contrast that to Ascended, which at a big stack of items per slot are definitely not something that's quick and easy to get to... and, furthermore, if that trend is carried through, will turn into something you have to grind for all over again every time they raise the cap.

I think so too. Release crappy and ugly looking high stat gear and people will (have to) buy gems, loads of them. And don't be mistaken, whether you buy them from the TP or with your credit card, in the end someone has payed RL Cash for those gems!

Or do we really think that a game, where designers spent years to bring it in line with the idea of horizontal progression will do vertical progression better than a game that is designed for it?

Um.. well in my book they already do.. and its FREE.

No sub fee goes a long, long, long way my friend. I will never pay a sub fee again period. I could care less what they dangle in front of me. Three content patches in three months with a 4th on the way in January.

ALL FOR FREE. The game is the best value in MMO gaming out right now period. Why in the hell would I switch to another and pay a sub fee or go back to some horrid pay scheme supposed free to play with content trickling out they way other MMO's do it?

Release crappy and ugly looking high stat gear and people will (have to) buy gems, loads of them. And don't be mistaken, whether you buy them from the TP or with your credit card, in the end someone has payed RL Cash for those gems!

Ok back up a bit and calm down with the ridiculously alarmist speak here. I have spent 10 bucks.. 10 on the cash shop you know what for? those supposedly evil transmute stones and used the left over gems to buy some keys. Out of the purchase of the stones and what I got out of the 6 boxes I opened I ended up with around 24ish stones. More than enough for over 3 complete gear over hauls..

FOR 10 BUCKS. Lets not forget they dont even plan on releasing all the ascended gear for at least a year and even if you add a xpac into that your good for at least a year for 10 bucks.. so yeah not a big deal at all

Release crappy and ugly looking high stat gear and people will (have to) buy gems, loads of them.

"Crappy" and "ugly-looking" have no objective definitions, so it must be pretty hard for Anet to deliberately and cynically use them to force us to buy gems. Some pieces of basic crafted exotic sets are quite popular, even among players concerned about appearance.

"Crappy" and "ugly-looking" have no objective definitions, so it must be pretty hard for Anet to deliberately and cynically use them to force us to buy gems. Some pieces of basic crafted exotic sets are quite popular, even among players concerned about appearance.

Well .. I think they made a good start with the water bottle and the growth like shoulderpads!

"Crappy" and "ugly-looking" have no objective definitions, so it must be pretty hard for Anet to deliberately and cynically use them to force us to buy gems. Some pieces of basic crafted exotic sets are quite popular, even among players concerned about appearance.

Without some ugly gear there is not much incentive to look great is there? It's all about looking better than the next guy