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enTue, 03 Mar 2015 18:47:20 GMTTue, 03 Mar 2015 18:47:20 GMTRev940-40-1Coffeehouse - Very tiredVery busy after the week of annual leave...

27 working hours for the 2 workdays passed... and this week I'm in long weekend schedule...

There's good chance I'll have 60+ work hours this week...

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 01:03:14 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/c8da4933ce994bec9c86a1aa00115e63#c8da4933ce994bec9c86a1aa00115e63cheong40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/cheong/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredTake care of yourself!]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/21fcfa27a1724fd89555a1aa00234914#21fcfa27a1724fd89555a1aa00234914
Wed, 24 Apr 2013 02:08:28 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/21fcfa27a1724fd89555a1aa00234914#21fcfa27a1724fd89555a1aa00234914contextfree`40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/contextfree`/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredI hate it when I take time off, and the time I take off is lost because of the workload I face when returning.

If you are really under that type of pressure, they don't have enough people working for them, or your manager hasn't planned projects with leave time in mind.

I have been lucky to work for some great people that when I had to go that extra mile, there was extra rest to compensate.

Good luck on your project, and hope you get the well deserved rest you have earned when it's completed.

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 02:44:21 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/e8b6378840854c85830fa1aa002d24c5#e8b6378840854c85830fa1aa002d24c5Robert Oswalt40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/RLO/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired@RLO: Well, the problem is that each member in my team is responsible for different modules, and don't have knowledge of work others working on.

And there's new module launching for my team this Monday, so lots of bugfixes are logged.

Btw, according to department meeting last month, 80% of teams (about 10) in my department have 1-2 vacancies in them, and most of the team size is 2-6 people. So there's really manpower shortage everywhere.

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 03:53:55 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/ba6231a49b1f486cbeb2a1aa00404038#ba6231a49b1f486cbeb2a1aa00404038cheong40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/cheong/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredMeh...I did 12+ hours straight for 30 straight days to get a project done once....you get used to it, albeit you do start to die inside in many ways ]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/60ef1a9bbc8e4a388188a1aa00e2c8d2#60ef1a9bbc8e4a388188a1aa00e2c8d2
Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:45:41 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/60ef1a9bbc8e4a388188a1aa00e2c8d2#60ef1a9bbc8e4a388188a1aa00e2c8d2Harlequin40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Harlequin/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredIt can be nice sometimes, I find. I mean sure, it can be stressful and headache inducing and tiring and all that, but I never feel team spirit and camaraderie as strongly as I do when 40+ people pull together over a month to pull off a new release or product launch and make it go smoothly.

Sort of the reason I keep developing I enjoy the work, it's more like fun-time than work time, but even when things get intense it still has a payout at the end of the day. No other job like it imo, though I might be biased

....you get used to it, albeit you do start to die inside in many ways

Like heart disease and stress ulcers?

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:30:38 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/65aac41a5f1e436e99a7a1aa00ef2076#65aac41a5f1e436e99a7a1aa00ef2076jinx10140http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/jinx101/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredIf a developer is working extensive overtime, then it means that the project manager has f---ed up and you're just paying for his mistake. Do you get paid overtime?

Herbie

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:55:36 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/19a134877358489f832ba1aa00f5fd04#19a134877358489f832ba1aa00f5fd04Herbie Smith40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Dr Herbie/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredDepends on where you live I would guess....I know in B.C. the laws say you don't get OT for the tech industry.]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/30b7d1f5730e4c06ab66a1aa01098314#30b7d1f5730e4c06ab66a1aa01098314
Wed, 24 Apr 2013 16:06:41 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/30b7d1f5730e4c06ab66a1aa01098314#30b7d1f5730e4c06ab66a1aa01098314Harlequin40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Harlequin/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired

Depends on where you live I would guess....I know in B.C. the laws say you don't get OT for the tech industry.

if you are billing by the hour (as a consultant or consulting company), you can be damn sure they are getting paid for that time, so if you aren't getting some leave or other compensation, you are being taken advantage of.

That said, there is an extreme dev shortage all over. Meanwhile, projects still need to get done and there apparently ISN'T a shortage of incompetent project managers.

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:08:56 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/59e1597a8947408d9ac9a1aa011a9ba9#59e1597a8947408d9ac9a1aa011a9ba9ScanIAm40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/ScanIAm/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired@ScanIAm: I think people often underestimate the value of a good project manager. They think in terms of project manager == manager == boss. You end up with some mid-level type who pokes his head into the developers' area once in a while to make sure they have their IDE open.

A lot of companies seem to just take it in stride that their project management will be terrible and things will look ok until "crunch time". What follows is always a panicked rush of overtime, even though they anticipated the panic.

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:38:27 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/e3c77313f92c489190b9a1aa0122b6c9#e3c77313f92c489190b9a1aa0122b6c9kettch40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/kettch/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredI've often thought about that, Kettch. A lot of times people think management experience means a person will be a competent manager for ANY profession, but I don't think software developers (and software development in general) works the same way. Not only will incompetence be brutal in software development, developers will probably be far less satisfied having to deal with an incompetent boss or one that doesn't understand what software development entails.

From my personal experience/history, this is usually expressed by an incompetent manager asking why a feature can't be done in 2 hours instead of 2 weeks, because they have no fundamental understanding of what it takes to do the job.

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:44:42 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/b3b85c74f6534dd29ab7a1aa01246eb2#b3b85c74f6534dd29ab7a1aa01246eb2Kental240http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Kental2/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired@Kental2: I think that a really good project manager doesn't really need to have an understanding of how long it will take to write feature 'x'. It's the developer's job to know how long it will take, and it's the business analyst's job to properly document specifications and requirements so that the developers can properly estimate.

Where I work, we're about half way through a multi-year implementation project. The project manager started out with no history in IT. However, he had a record of the projects he's managed for some Fortune 500 companies and the military. Watching him work, I realized that he didn't really need a solid understanding of the nuts and bolts. He abstracted the high level components and worked at that level to make sure that the developers, DBAs, business analysts, customers, and vendor all kept moving along.

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Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:55:13 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/e0f965111df84f93bb8aa1aa01275151#e0f965111df84f93bb8aa1aa01275151kettch40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/kettch/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired@cheong: When you are younger, your body can take it, and you effectively are learning on the job. 60 hours is not a lot if you are >35, if you said 80 hours, then I might start to acknowledge that you are working very hard.

After a while, you will find most of the time, removing yourself from the problems, having a long break, and doing other things like hobbies helps solve problems that world take 120hrs in a week.

If it is a short term project 3-9 months, and you have had a month or two off, then it is manageable, being relaxed and stress free is the secret.

Btw, for my company we don't get OT but have compensation leave instead. On some other companies I worked for, we didn't have compensation leaves that never got approved and always expire. So I guess my current one is better... at least I did actually have my compensation leave once.

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Thu, 25 Apr 2013 02:00:29 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/f870fa5de8a54976bbcaa1ab002117c3#f870fa5de8a54976bbcaa1ab002117c3cheong40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/cheong/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredI work for a local government, and we're all salaried. There's no OT or official provision for compensation leave. Our stupid payroll system requires us to fill out a time tracking form, even for salaried employees. So, everybody has to fill out 8's all the way across. Since we're IT folk, we'll work too much if we get into something. Unofficially, as long as we don't save it for too long, we can announce we've been there too long that week and take off early. You still have to fill out 10 8's M-F.

I've done the death march thing. It results in shitty code and should never be done.

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Thu, 25 Apr 2013 03:35:41 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/049174fb4de0470caaf3a1ab003b3dfa#049174fb4de0470caaf3a1ab003b3dfakettch40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/kettch/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredTimesheets are used to skirt the laws about salaried employees by forcing them to 'lose leave' if they work less than 40 hours even if they don't gain leave for working over 40 hours.

The whole point of salaried workers is that your hours don't matter as long as you produce.

It's the same in the US. Some jobs are classified so that employers MUST pay for overtime. Tech workers are usually exempt from that because they are hired as 'salary'.

Oh. That's easy then. If my contract said "9-5:30, no overtime will be paid" then I would auto-reject all meetings and phone calls scheduled before 9 and would select "hibernate" on my computer at 5:30.

This is a good habit to do anyway, since if you're routinely working more than your contracted hours, it's probably because your department is under-resourced. By working those extra hours you're rewarding the clever guy at the top who says he only needs two staff instead of three - you're not helping yourself or your co-workers.

Ultimately the decision as to whether your boss wants to pay for your overtime is a decision that your boss makes - not one that the law makes. Just because you're salaried, doesn't mean your company doesn't have overtime.

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Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:04:13 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/40ad960eb5d2454fa150a1ab015b3af0#40ad960eb5d2454fa150a1ab015b3af0evildictaitor40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/evildictaitor/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredI can't even imagine having to work 60 hours a week, 40 hours is way too long as is.]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/b2d8d018926646159319a1ab0186a72c#b2d8d018926646159319a1ab0186a72c
Thu, 25 Apr 2013 23:42:19 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/b2d8d018926646159319a1ab0186a72c#b2d8d018926646159319a1ab0186a72cBass40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Bass/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredFor a record, I've been working for 46 hours this week upto Thursday, and there's 2 workdays left in this week.]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/aaf176b1bf7f49cbacdaa1ac0033a58d#aaf176b1bf7f49cbacdaa1ac0033a58d
Fri, 26 Apr 2013 03:08:02 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/aaf176b1bf7f49cbacdaa1ac0033a58d#aaf176b1bf7f49cbacdaa1ac0033a58dcheong40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/cheong/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredDeadlines are deadlines, so sometimes you have to just suck it up, but there's no gun to your head (I hope).

I've found that if you grab your stuff and go home, nobody will stop you. They also tend to want you to come back the next day.

If not, then you haven't lost anything.

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Fri, 26 Apr 2013 14:06:33 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/278caf20b8b8462ca842a1ac00e883ab#278caf20b8b8462ca842a1ac00e883abScanIAm40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/ScanIAm/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired@ScanIAm: While I'm sure we can all agree that deadlines should be based on when the project is done, that doesn't always happen. However, deadlines are usually known ahead of time. Work should be scheduled and prioritized based on that deadline. Sadly, few companies seem to understand this. I'd rather work harder at the beginning so that there is more time to slow down and coast across the finish line.]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/f2e132f3308845d5957fa1ac00f04b63#f2e132f3308845d5957fa1ac00f04b63
Fri, 26 Apr 2013 14:34:53 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/f2e132f3308845d5957fa1ac00f04b63#f2e132f3308845d5957fa1ac00f04b63kettch40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/kettch/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredPersonally I'm not a 5.01 coder..

I find I work well under a certain amount of pressure.

It's when this pressure becomes too great (not having enough time to actually write the program, never mind thinking about it) when I start to crack. Sometimes this leads to MMM by getting more resource my way (when it's too late) although not always. Sometimes you just have to march on and get your scar.

It's retrospect where the process needs to be investigated and amended. Agreeing sensible amounts of work doesn't always happen for me.

There are so many variables and circumstances that not all PM's can forsee.. But again in my case, when it hits the fan, quality is out and JFDI is in.

Deadlines are deadlines, so sometimes you have to just suck it up, but there's no gun to your head (I hope).

If you're coming up against a deadline and need to stay late - that's because the project manager screwed up. Not because you're obliged to stay late.

Project managers should allocate extra time close to release in order to make sure that everything can be done in a logical and ordered way. If you're forcing your staff to work ridiculous hours - all you get is a stressed out workforce, your good staff will leave, and mistakes will creep in.

Deadlines are deadlines - and while it's fine for you to stay late a couple of times to help out, or to correct your own errors, you should be careful about ever getting to a place where it is expectedthat you will work more than your contracted hours for no benefit.

Don't let your boss exploit you. 9 times out of 10 in this industry he needs you more than you need him.

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Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:33:05 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/f49801b0fa1e45a1b015a1ac01004860#f49801b0fa1e45a1b015a1ac01004860evildictaitor40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/evildictaitor/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tiredI make it a point to work no more than 40 hours a week, unless it's an emergency, salaried or not.

A planned release being behind schedule is not an emergency. It's a sign that the deadline will be missed and that the project manager screwed up. Consistently missing deadlines means your estimation is way off and the whole team needs to reevaluate how they're doing things.

A planned release being behind schedule is not an emergency. It's a sign that the deadline will be missed and that the project manager screwed up. Consistently missing deadlines means your estimation is way off and the whole team needs to reevaluate how they're doing things.

+ ∞

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Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:00:54 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/ee3eeb604a0e4e51afeaa1ac01186720#ee3eeb604a0e4e51afeaa1ac01186720evildictaitor40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/evildictaitor/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired@spivonious: And if that's consistently the case, then you need to be somewhere else, because poor project managers rarely take the blame.]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/a829bf5102404f6d940ca1ac011c43f5#a829bf5102404f6d940ca1ac011c43f5
Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:14:58 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/a829bf5102404f6d940ca1ac011c43f5#a829bf5102404f6d940ca1ac011c43f5kettch40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/kettch/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired

@ScanIAm: While I'm sure we can all agree that deadlines should be based on when the project is done, that doesn't always happen. However, deadlines are usually known ahead of time. Work should be scheduled and prioritized based on that deadline. Sadly, few companies seem to understand this. I'd rather work harder at the beginning so that there is more time to slow down and coast across the finish line.

The few times I've tried to be proactive, I've seen no improvement to the crunch at the end of the project. Usually the subject matter experts (a.k.a. eventual users) will drag their feet and/or wait until the last minute to test (and find bugs).

A planned release being behind schedule is not an emergency. It's a sign that the deadline will be missed and that the project manager screwed up.

Developers almost always get "bucketed" with the Project Manager, because ultimately it is you that provide the project manager with the data to make a guesstimate.

There are certain classes of problems where you just should not even attempt to use sprints or whatever project planning mechanism you choose. If is is a webforms/Mvc application, with a bunch of CRUD, you can more or less get the project plan right. The problem with most IT projects is that they require innovation a lot of the time, and it is much harder to quantify somebody wanting to produce an application where there is nothing on MSDN or Google or any Books.

Lets take the cloud for example, I have been interviewed where people want something like Azure with Push notifications on Android and iPhone and asking whether they think I could do it in 6 months.

Most of the time developers are too optimistic, and constantly dissapoint, by saying something is easy, and weeks or months later a task they said would take a few days is still not quite working.

All in all, I prefer working with Scientists, as typically for example, a biologist can run experiments for 3 months, and find that things just plain don't work. They accept that failure is a direct consequence of innovation, dyed in the wool, project managers consistently manage IT project with targets like people are producing cans of Heinz beans.

Usually the subject matter experts (a.k.a. eventual users) will drag their feet and/or wait until the last minute to test (and find bugs).

You need to take mind-reading classes

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Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:59:13 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/9b2519e1814a473b9036a1ac01286b0b#9b2519e1814a473b9036a1ac01286b0bVesuvius40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/vesuvius/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired@vesuvius: A few months ago we started a project where the project manager told the customer that he wasn't going to devote a single development hour to the project until the information gathering, business analysis, and other planning was all complete. This was something very new for our organization. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth the customer relented, and they did 4 months of business analysis, gathering specs and all of the stuff you wish you could do all the time. When the development package was handed off to the developers, we were in awe. It was a complete departure from previous projects. So far it's been quite fun. We never have to ask questions, it's all in the documents. Plus, it looks like we're beating our time estimates.]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/5f295c6d48464c5d89d9a1ac012c3c79#5f295c6d48464c5d89d9a1ac012c3c79
Fri, 26 Apr 2013 18:13:07 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/5f295c6d48464c5d89d9a1ac012c3c79#5f295c6d48464c5d89d9a1ac012c3c79kettch40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/kettch/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired

@vesuvius: A few months ago we started a project where the project manager told the customer that he wasn't going to devote a single development hour to the project until the information gathering, business analysis, and other planning was all complete. This was something very new for our organization. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth the customer relented, and they did 4 months of business analysis, gathering specs and all of the stuff you wish you could do all the time. When the development package was handed off to the developers, we were in awe. It was a complete departure from previous projects. So far it's been quite fun. We never have to ask questions, it's all in the documents. Plus, it looks like we're beating our time estimates.

And that's how it should be. Too many dev departments are afraid to stand up to the customer like that. You can't give an estimate until you know what you're supposed to be doing.

@vesuvius: A few months ago we started a project where the project manager told the customer that he wasn't going to devote a single development hour to the project until the information gathering, business analysis, and other planning was all complete. This was something very new for our organization. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth the customer relented, and they did 4 months of business analysis, gathering specs and all of the stuff you wish you could do all the time. When the development package was handed off to the developers, we were in awe. It was a complete departure from previous projects. So far it's been quite fun. We never have to ask questions, it's all in the documents. Plus, it looks like we're beating our time estimates.

4 months planning is just too long for most projects that fail, so you are writing of the essential practices that contribute to less stress all round and better chances of success.

Be very careful though, sticking to documents that were written 4 - 6 months ago means that you may finish the project and when the project fails, you can say you did what was written down, but supplied the customer with a product that does not suit their needs.

Be prepared to have to do a big rewrite midway, because of a subtle but essential detail that was misinterpreted or the customer finding out that what they said they wanted wasn't exactly what they wanted. It is the ability to accommodate this type of change in well managed projects which results in a successful project, rather than wasting time and money blaming the person that gathered the requirements or the customer.

]]>http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/840c7606c109418695a6a1ac012fbb02#840c7606c109418695a6a1ac012fbb02
Fri, 26 Apr 2013 18:25:50 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Very-tired/840c7606c109418695a6a1ac012fbb02#840c7606c109418695a6a1ac012fbb02Vesuvius40http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/vesuvius/Discussions/RSSCoffeehouse - Very tired@vesuvius: The documents have been thoroughly vetted and pored over by the folks doing the analysis. These haven't been static documents. We've also got approximately a dozen other projects going at the same time, so not all the time was on one project.

Under threat of it not getting done at all, the customer has been very engaged. The analysis team (lol, it was two people) knew that it would take a long time to complete the analysis because of other commitments, so at least once a month, they went to key stakeholders and refreshed the user stories and other findings, as well as validated any assumptions.

As far as change goes, that's been sticky a few times, but I think we've got the process hammered out. Like you indicate, the trick is to expect change. We're also trying out a more agile process with smaller sprints and regular deliverables, including cycles for UAT and minor adjustments, so that's helping with managing change and expectations.

That said, yes, you're concerns are very much on everyone's mind, and we're very cautious.

Yep. Most successful development teams I've seen treat development more like scientific research instead of a manufacturing process. When you think about it, software development is a bit like scientific research, almost everyone writing code is pushing boundaries of knowledge to some degree, otherwise there wouldn't be much point in writing that code.

@vesuvius: A few months ago we started a project where the project manager told the customer that he wasn't going to devote a single development hour to the project until the information gathering, business analysis, and other planning was all complete. This was something very new for our organization. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth the customer relented, and they did 4 months of business analysis, gathering specs and all of the stuff you wish you could do all the time. When the development package was handed off to the developers, we were in awe. It was a complete departure from previous projects. So far it's been quite fun. We never have to ask questions, it's all in the documents. Plus, it looks like we're beating our time estimates.

That's awesome.Can't even imagine project that runs with no change in specification at all. (Let alone those changes which requires throwing away fundamential assumption and introduce all the bugs hiding here and there in Business Logic Layer module that has no way to ever got fully covered by unit tests)

That's were schedules goes out of control.

And I don't want to blame PM for this. As in-house developers we don't have right to say "No" to changes as long as the users can show an actual business need there. Don't expect anyone above to side with you for resisting the change. They'll just say "if your application can't cover all business case, maybe they should just buy one of the "canned" software in the market and hire their expert to tweak it, and you have no use here".