NostroZ:When Mexico comes in and claims most of the South-Western USA (as is historically theirs)

Israel is a member of the United Nations. It agreed to abide by modern norms of customary international law when it acceded to membership in that body. One of the motivations for creating the UN was to prevent any further wars to gain territory, as embodied in its Charter. Israel is currently in breach of that Charter. It is also currently, flagrantly, and openly violating the Fourth Geneva Convention, which absolutely prohibits ANY transfer of population into occupied territories - and which is not only binding on Israel through customary international law, but also through Israel's own signature on and ratification of that accord. Israel was also only created under the current international order, through Chapters XI and XII of the UN Charter. Israel is damned fortunate that the United States does whatever Israel asks, because barring United States interference Israel would have been as isolated as North Korea or Iran.

The conquest of portions of Mexico through the Mexican-American War and the Treaty of Guadalape Hidalgo occurred prior to the formulation of those international norms. It would not be permitted today, nor would many other things throughout history, which we fought a World War to prevent from happening again. If Israel doesn't want to abide by the international laws it agreed to follow in the first place, it can withdraw from them and all the protections they offer. Until then, the people who pay you are unquestionably in the wrong.

mayIFark:Nutsac_Jim: mayIFark: No, winning a war does not give anymore right to any land. Why the heck we went after Saddam after he occupied Kuwait?

And if we wanted part of Iraq, we can take it. Just because the US chose not to do so does not mean the victor gets to dictate terms. The purpose of the Iraq war was to liberate Kuwait, not expand into Iraq.

You still have not answered the question.

/I have figured you out completely. Good day!

It is irrelevant **why** the US went into Iraq. It does not matter whether one agrees or disagrees with the premise of conflict. What matters is who wins the battle. This is the spoils of war.

You seem to have this confused with spoiled as in 'waaaaaah'.

The fact that the coalition didn't go in and take land is because they chose not to do so.Now, it could be said that Saddam could have chosen not to agree to it if the coalition said 'gimmie some land"

cameroncrazy1984:NostroZ: The 'Palestinian identity' did not begin UNTIL AFTER the loss of the 1967 war..

yeah, the area that is now israel was completely empty prior to 1948. Literally nobody lived there.

Do you have a hard time READING THE WHOLE QUOTE? Jordanians lived there. Syrians lived there. Etc. PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING:

Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of ONE people, the Arab nation. Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are ONE people. Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.

A separate Palestinian entity needs to fight for the national interest in the then remaining occupied territories. The Jordanian government cannot speak for Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon or Syria. Jordan is a state with specific borders. It cannot lay claim on - for instance - Haifa or Jaffa, while I AM entitled to Haifa, Jaffa, Jerusalem en Beersheba. Jordan can only speak for Jordanians and the Palestinians in Jordan. The Palestinian state would be entitled to represent all Palestinians in the Arab world en elsewhere. Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second.

/Jordanians = Palestinians//Get your head out of your read-end///There was no unique 'Palestinian identity' until one was invented to fight against the Jews... the people that lived in the region ascribed themselves to the countries that are present (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc.) until they decided that they were a UNIQUE people who HAD title to the land the Jews reside on and they could not drive them from. One leads the other... first they tried to kill off and drive out the Jews... when that did not work, then suddenly a 'Palestinian identity' rose up after the failed 1967 war.

Damn, President Obama got some brass balls by going into assassination central(Israel).

/So how much is this trip costing the taxpayer anyways?//Triple Secret Service security. Snipers. Seal Team 666 ready to jump in and take out the assassins. An aircraft carrier and some attack subs. Biden waiting by the button with the nuclear option in case of assassination. The Israeli teabaggers waiting to overthrow the U.S. government.

vernonFL:Israel is quickly becoming an apartheid state, where Israelis will be the minority ruling over a majority of Arabs who have little or no rights. Its morally reprehensible, especially given the history of the Jewish religion and the Jewish people.

The abused often become abusers themselves. It's just odd to see it acted out at the nation level.

RoboZombie:Also, Israel has been getting this kind of money from us for iver 30 years, so yeah, NOT like Pakistan et al.

Lol. So let me get this straight....30 years Israel is a close ally and provides an exchange of military technology = Evil10+ years of hiding Osama Bin Laden, taking money while providing refuge for the enemy = Good

You have a perverse logic there... but then again, when someone hates Jews, their logic is often twisted.

NostroZ:But please, stop talking about Israel as though no real people live there or as though they have not been fighting to KEEP their land since 1947.

Clearly Israel isn't invading Palestine, they are merely driving out the Palestinian invaders who have been occupying Israeli land for the last few thousand years.

Would you be happy with a similar plan to give back America to the descendants of the Inuit, Inca, Maya, and Native Americans, while all others are rounded up and forced into highly concentrated cities and shot on sight when they try to leave? Or do ancient land claims only count when it's someone else's land being taken?

Now that's funny right there. NostroZ: There was no unique 'Palestinian identity' until one was invented to fight against the Jews... the people that lived in the region ascribed themselves to the countries that are present

NostroZ:On a separate note, Dr. Dreidel: What is your opinion on Iran and them getting nukes?

I think it'd be far better if we gave them the tech to have a nuclear energy program - mending fences as well as getting to keep an eye on them (we'll know what they have) - but with sanctions and the 40-year history we have, I'd guess that Iran does their own thing, helped by China/Russia.

It's weird that Iran's been 5-15 years away from Getting the Bomb for about 15 years now. Always chasing the horizons...

captainktainer:If Israel doesn't want to abide by the international laws it agreed to follow in the first place, it can withdraw from them and all the protections they offer. Until then, thepeople who pay you are unquestionably in the wrong.

Excuse me? You sound like one hell of an educated anti-Semite.

Please explain to me how in your world view, having a PRO-Israel opinion means that one is a paid for propagandist?Seriously... explain to me how you do NOT HATE Jews, yet believe that ANYONE who supports Israel is automatically a paid for shill???

/ It's amazing to me that you do not see your own seething hatred of Israel.// To have such intellectual dishonesty as to believe that the only people who disagree with you are paid for./// If anyone thinks there is "no anti-antisemitism", just look at the above logic: Either you agree Israel is evil or you're paid for.

the ha ha guy:NostroZ: But please, stop talking about Israel as though no real people live there or as though they have not been fighting to KEEP their land since 1947.

Clearly Israel isn't invading Palestine, they are merely driving out the Palestinian invaders who have been occupying Israeli land for the last few thousand years.

Would you be happy with a similar plan to give back America to the descendants of the Inuit, Inca, Maya, and Native Americans, while all others are rounded up and forced into highly concentrated cities and shot on sight when they try to leave? Or do ancient land claims only count when it's someone else's land being taken?

You know he was referring to fighting Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

Those maps are very inaccurate, as is the assertion that they are shot when they leave (at least by Israel). I think they still have a lot of people going back and forth through the checkpoints to work. They likely aren't shot.

They are effectively redrawing the WB border with the fences though. They are also still making mini-cities inside the WB. The PA is justified in fearing that Israel will then want to redraw border to connect those settlements, hence nothing getting done on the peace front in this trip or likely our lifetimes.

Now that's funny right there. NostroZ: There was no unique 'Palestinian identity' until one was invented to fight against the Jews... the people that lived in the region ascribed themselves to the countries that are present

No, they lived in the British protectorate of Palestine.

Jesus, do you even know your own history?

I know it's easier to NOT read what I WROTE and then FIGHT a straw-man, instead of acknowledging the fine nuance of reality.

I wrote about a 'Palestinian identity' forming following 1967, as a political strategy against the Zionists as shown in the following quote from a PLO member in 1977:

Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of ONE people, the Arab nation. Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are ONE people. Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.

A separate Palestinian entity needs to fight for the national interest in the then remaining occupied territories. The Jordanian government cannot speak for Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon or Syria. Jordan is a state with specific borders. It cannot lay claim on - for instance - Haifa or Jaffa, while I AM entitled to Haifa, Jaffa, Jerusalem en Beersheba. Jordan can only speak for Jordanians and the Palestinians in Jordan. The Palestinian state would be entitled to represent all Palestinians in the Arab world en elsewhere. Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second.

- That's a member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, quoted to a Dutch newspaper... these are NOT MY WORDS... these are the words of the people who CREATED THE PALESTINIAN IDENTITY and will tear it down once it is no longer useful to drive the Jews out.

the ha ha guy:Would you be happy with a similar plan to give back America to the descendants of the Inuit, Inca, Maya, and Native Americans, while all others are rounded up and forced into highly concentrated cities and shot on sight when they try to leave? Or do ancient land claims only count when it's someone else's land being taken?

Why don't you ask the Jordanians why they shoot the Palestinians when they try to leave, or the Egyptians, or the Lebanese.

NostroZ:Excuse me? You sound like one hell of an educated anti-Semite.

Please explain to me how in your world view, having a PRO-Israel opinion means that one is a paid for propagandist?Seriously... explain to me how you do NOT HATE Jews, yet believe that ANYONE who supports Israel is automatically a paid for shill???

/ It's amazing to me that you do not see your own seething hatred of Israel.// To have such intellectual dishonesty as to believe that the only people who disagree with you are paid for./// If anyone thinks there is "no anti-antisemitism", just look at the above logic: Either you agree Israel is evil or you're paid for.

Well, yesterday I was accused of being a pro-Israel shill, and today I'm accused of being an antisemite, so that's fun.

I'm calling you a paid Israeli shill because you're acting like a JIDF, you came in at the same time as other people ranting at the same time, and you have the same thoughtless, push-button, multiple-punctuated screed that Israel pays for, complete with ignorant racism while preemptively calling anyone who dares to disagree with you an antisemite.

NostroZ:the ha ha guy: Would you be happy with a similar plan to give back America to the descendants of the Inuit, Inca, Maya, and Native Americans, while all others are rounded up and forced into highly concentrated cities and shot on sight when they try to leave? Or do ancient land claims only count when it's someone else's land being taken?

Why don't you ask the Jordanians why they shoot the Palestinians when they try to leave, or the Egyptians, or the Lebanese.

cameroncrazy1984:NostroZ: Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship.

Hang on, I thought nobody identified as Palestinian?

Oh, sweet Jesus, I can't believe I missed that. "No, really, I have x friends, so I'm not racist against x. I just think Israel needs more lebensraum - and not all the Israelis, just specifically the Jewish ones."

If you do not think Israel gets singled out because it is THE ONLY JEWISH state in the world, then your self imposed delusions are beyond me to explain.

I really want to know what you're smoking, because that has got to be some seriously strong shiat.

Only the best Jew-weed for me... it's a special Semitic hydroponic variety grown exclusively to chill out the He-bros.

/ In all seriousness though, Jew hating is real. The entire Arab world hates the Jews... have started/funded wars against them.// In Europe there is a resurgence of antisemitism./// You might not think it's real... but the US government does and classifies it as a hate crime, no different than lynching a black person.

Throughout the Roosevelt and Truman administrations, the Departments of War and State, recognizing the possibility of a Soviet-Arab connection and the potential Arab restriction on Oil supplies to the United States, advised against U.S. intervention on behalf of the Jews.

/remember, if U.S. had any cojones we'd have gone through withdrawal from ME oil jag, decades ago. Then the tables would be turned to some degree - we'd have more leverage (if we actually gave a shiat at that late date).//pretty much just subsidizing the `suppression of conflict $$$', at this point, and Obama is a puppet dancing at the ends of the strings of a farked history///anyone making `bomb Iran' book, yet?? Really thought we'd have completely decamped from the ME by 1980, had/have the science/tech to have done so - Energy Policy guided by the Invisible Hand of `capitalism'??? Say hi to the future/present, Uncle Sam...

sheep snorter:Damn, President Obama got some brass balls by going into assassination central(Israel).

/So how much is this trip costing the taxpayer anyways?//Triple Secret Service security. Snipers. Seal Team 666 ready to jump in and take out the assassins. An aircraft carrier and some attack subs. Biden waiting by the button with the nuclear option in case of assassination. The Israeli teabaggers waiting to overthrow the U.S. government.

NostroZ:the ha ha guy: Would you be happy with a similar plan to give back America to the descendants of the Inuit, Inca, Maya, and Native Americans, while all others are rounded up and forced into highly concentrated cities and shot on sight when they try to leave? Or do ancient land claims only count when it's someone else's land being taken?

Why don't you ask the Jordanians why they shoot the Palestinians when they try to leave, or the Egyptians, or the Lebanese.

Is your axe only sharp when Jews come to mind?

Killing civilians is wrong, regardless of the nationality of the bullet. When an Egyptian soldier shoots a civilian trying to leave Gaza, it's wrong. When an Israeli soldier shoots someone in the West Bank who took a wrong turn, it's wrong.

captainktainer:Well, yesterday I was accused of being a pro-Israel shill, and today I'm accused of being an antisemite, so that's fun.

I'm calling you a paid Israeli shill because you're acting like a JIDF, you came in at the same time as other people ranting at the same time, and you have the same thoughtless, push-button, multiple-punctuated screed that Israel pays for, complete with ignorant racism while preemptively calling anyone who dares to disagree with you an antisemite.

Your logic is impeccable Mr.CaptainKtainer::: You say because I have similar views on a topic and I posted them in and around the same time others joined this freshly public thread, I must be a paid for shill.

Obviously, it can't be that the lines are drawn pretty clearly on this issue and that when a topic dealing with Israel goes public on Fark (from TotalFark) it gets 200+ comments that are essentially "Why do we support that evil Israel" vs. "We get a lot from it and support lots of other countries in a similar way... why hate on the Jews especially vs. Pakistan or Afghanistan?"

/ It speaks volumes about what you consider the other side to be for you to classify your opposition as disingenuous.// Only because yesterday you had a bigger hater say you did not hate Israel enough and therefore you were pro-Israel does not change the fact that online, where there is anonymity and people speak the worse, there's A LOT of Jew hating./// For you to call me a paid for pro-Israel supporter shows how you've dehumanized real people who have real views about a country that we have a real connection to.

Crazy Lee:Throughout the Roosevelt and Truman administrations, the Departments of War and State, recognizing the possibility of a Soviet-Arab connection and the potential Arab restriction on Oil supplies to the United States, advised against U.S. intervention on behalf of the Jews.

/remember, if U.S. had any cojones we'd have gone through withdrawal from ME oil jag, decades ago. Then the tables would be turned to some degree - we'd have more leverage (if we actually gave a shiat at that late date).//pretty much just subsidizing the `suppression of conflict $$$', at this point, and Obama is a puppet dancing at the ends of the strings of a farked history///anyone making `bomb Iran' book, yet?? Really thought we'd have completely decamped from the ME by 1980, had/have the science/tech to have done so - Energy Policy guided by the Invisible Hand of `capitalism'??? Say hi to the future/present, Uncle Sam...

Hard to add more emphasis than yours on the ME oil.

We have more energy within our, the US, borders than any other area on earth, but we won't tap it.

Why? For the same reason we usually only get Florida oranges in the NW, it cost more to ship it, which adds to the cost, which allows the price to be even higher.

If we pumped our own energy, Wall Street would have to change 40 years of speculation theory, and that would cost them money.

Plus, we won't be able to jack up the price every time a Sultanate sneezes.

And Taxes, don't forget, that in Seattle, $1.65 of the price of every gallon of regular is taxes.

You know that tired old "with great power comes great responsibility" that got repeated ad nauseam in Spiderman? It works both ways: with zero power comes zero responsibility.

If the middle east won't take our suggestions or implement our plans for peace, then we have fark-all responsibility when they start killing each other. Y'all want nothing more than to murder each other, meh, have at it. I'm tired of wasting time and effort and lives trying to make you act like goddamn adults.

ringersol:Who in their right mind has expectations of the peace process that *can* be lowered?

captainktainer:cameroncrazy1984: NostroZ: Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship.

Hang on, I thought nobody identified as Palestinian?

Oh, sweet Jesus, I can't believe I missed that. "No, really, I have x friends, so I'm not racist against x. I just think Israel needs more lebensraum - and not all the Israelis, just specifically the Jewish "

Listen buddy... I cannot help you with reading comprehension, that's all on your English teachers.Here is the QUOTE from a PLO member to a Dutch paper in 1977... these ARE NOT MY WORDS, as I've said multiple times... Please read the whole post/quote and who it's referencing before you react.

Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of ONE people, the Arab nation. Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are ONE people. Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.

A separate Palestinian entity needs to fight for the national interest in the then remaining occupied territories. The Jordanian government cannot speak for Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon or Syria. Jordan is a state with specific borders. It cannot lay claim on - for instance - Haifa or Jaffa, while I AM entitled to Haifa, Jaffa, Jerusalem en Beersheba. Jordan can only speak for Jordanians and the Palestinians in Jordan. The Palestinian state would be entitled to represent all Palestinians in the Arab world en elsewhere. Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second.