You are a natural when it comes to pizza making and think fast on your feet when confronted with challenges, so I have every confidence that you will succeed with the DKM dough. In line with this objective, I would recommend that you select only one size and practice with it without change until you see the overall pattern of things. I know that you are not fond of math but if you follow the steps (Steps 1-4) I outlined in Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148347.html#msg148347, I think you will get the hang of things after a few tries. Eventually, you would hope to be able to get the proper skin thickness without having to weigh the skins and do the calculations, much like a pizza operator learns from repetition how to make dough consistently well using only volume measurements. I personally will always weigh things since that is the only way I know what to expect, and to help explain the results I get, for better or worse. It's all part of my feedback loop that tells me what to change to make things better.

Peter

Thanks for you kind words, in thinking I am a natural when it comes to making pizza, but I had my share of failures, in this thread, and it other threads. At least I can learn from my failures, and then wonít try to go down that road again. I am going to stay with the same size pizza and TF and see if I can get the hang of getting the right TF. You are right, that I am not fond of math, but I will follow your helpful post and try to learn. I donít believe in volume measurements any more either, especially for the flour and water.

I donít think my higher walled dark steel pan has any direct affect on my experiments, but I do wish I would have a dark cutter pan to compare my dark steel pan to, in trying a cracker-style.

I have a question I want to ask you about using a round pan that isnít perfectly round in trying to make a cracker-style pie. I had used my round steel pan before when trying to make a cracker style pizza. I was at Ollieís today and saw the pizza pan I have pictured below. The pizza pan is heavy, but isnít perfectly round. I had wanted to try another kind of pizza pan instead of my steel pan in my next attempt for a cracker style pizza with 2% of PZ-44 added. When I saw this pan today, I thought I might give it a try, but now since I got it home I see it is 14Ē x 13.4Ē. How am I going to put that number into the expanded calculating tool? Maybe I shouldnít try the pan I just bought, and go back to the steel pan that is at market.

It has gotten cooler in our area, so I thought I will try another experiment this weekend with a cracker style pizza with PZ-44.

Are you saying that the pan is oval or is it just slightly out of round, possibly as a result of a manufacturing defect?

Peter

This is a closer picture of what the size on the label says the pizza pan is. I have no idea why they wouldn't make the pizza pan perfectly round. I don't think the pizza pan is a defect in the size. I didn't notice the size until I got the pan home. I have enough trouble with trying to calculate the right TF when trying to roll out the skin. Do you think this pan will cause me more problems?

I didnít measure the perimeter of the pan in inches, but took my measuring tape and the pizza pan off the sloping edges is 11 ĺĒ both ways, so the pan is round. I didnít take into consideration, that the pan had handles on both sides and just read the size of the pan on the label. The size stated on the label is for the pan measured with the handles. Sorry for the confusion. Do you think this pan will work for a cracker-style crust, or should I continue to use my steel pan?

Is your pan an anodized pan or does it have a coating of some sort and, if the latter, will it be able to withstand the temperaratures at which you would bake the pizzas? If the pan is oven safe at high temperatures, I don't see any reason why the pan might not work for a cracker-style pizza.

Is your pan an anodized pan or does it have a coating of some sort and, if the latter, will it be able to withstand the temperaratures at which you would bake the pizzas? If the pan is oven safe at high temperatures, I don't see any reason why the pan might not work for a cracker-style pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I donít think the pizza pan is anodized. I think it is coated with something else. The pan is very heavy. I looked online for information about the Marcus Samuelsson pizza pan, but canít find any information what it is made of, or if it can withstand any higher temperatures. The only kind of other bake ware I can find is a Marcus Samuelsson Roasting pan. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LH4A7O/?tag=pizzamaking-20It says on the product features what the Roasting pan is made of, and it is oven-safe to 400 degrees F. It know makes me wonder if the Marcus Samuelsson pizza pan is made of the same materials and only might be able to be used to 400 degrees F. I should have passed up this pizza pan, until I knew more information about it. I might need to return it.

I decided to use my 12Ē steel pan to do the experiment with DKMís cracker style dough formula with 2% PZ-44. I mixed the dough according to the exact directions given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49042.html#msg49042I let the dough ball rest coated with oil for 1 hr. 45 minutes at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F. The dough ball really wasnít easy to roll out, without using the proofing box, but it was manageable and could be rolled out in about 6 minutes. I donít know what the white spots are from that were on the dough ball after it fermented for 1 hr. 45 minutes. They werenít there after I mixed the dough. I weighed the rolled out skin after it was cut and it weighed 224 grams. Hopefully, this time I came close to the desired dough weight for a TF of 0.07. I did use a formula for a 13Ē pizza and then cut it to 12Ē. I am going to use the skin to bake a pizza tomorrow. If this crust doesnít get thin and crispy, I donít know if I am going to do another experiment with the DKMís cracker style pizza with PZ-44, because so far my results didnít have much success.

Another failed attempt at a cracker style pizza. I donít know what I did wrong this time, but the crust wasnít crispy. The crust didnít taste bad, but as can been seen on the pictures the crust sure wasnít crackery. When the pie was cut, there was a definite crunch, but that didnít mean the crust would be crispy.

The skin was left at room temperature today to warm-up for 2 Ĺ hrs.

The pie was dressed with sauce, a blend of mozzarellas, and pepperoni. I would rate the pizza decent in final taste, but it wasnít what I was looking to accomplish.

I sent a question to Foremost Farms on their contact page, because it was bugging me if adding the PZ-44 had anything to do with the results of my last attempt at trying the cracker style pizza and my failed attempt. I just wondered since the PZ-44 was added to the formula and the dough did seem to be able to rolled out without using a proofing box, if somehow that would have affected not getting a crackery crisp crust. I read the directions and usage recommended amounts for PZ-44, but I couldnít see anything about a real low hydration dough. I received an email yesterday from Joan Behr at Foremost Farms and she said the person that can answer my questions will return to the office on Thursday of this week. She said the person is attending a conference out of state. She forwarded my message so that she could connect with me upon her return. Joan told me the contact person is Jenny Reuter and gave me her email address. I am going to write her a more detailed email, because on the contact page, you are limited to how many letters can be put into a question. It was probably something I did wrong with the attempted crackery crispy crust, but I just wanted to make sure the PZ-44 didnít have something to do with my results.

This post is to report that Jenny Reuter of Foremost Farms did contact me later this morning, by telephone. We talked about if there could be a reason when using PZ-44 in a formula, like I used for the cracker-style pizza, if PZ-44 could have changed my results. I had sent Jenny Reuter a detailed email about how I mixed the dough, rolled the dough, and so forth. I also sent the pictures of my failed attempt. I asked Jenny about using PZ-44 in a low hydration dough and she said most people think PZ-44 will make the dough relax right away. I explained I didnít think the dough with PZ-44 added would relax right away, but in about 40% less time than if no PZ-44 was added to the mix. Jenny asked me if I used the PZ-44 (2%) by using that number in relationship to the flour used in the mix and I said yes. I said I understood Bakerís percents. She also asked me if I used more water in the formula than I usually use and I said no. She gave a couple of explanations on maybe why my crust didnít get crispy and crackery. She said maybe the gluten developed too much while I was mixing the dough or maybe from the time I rolled out the dough, until the next day when I used the dough to make the pizza, there might have been too much gluten formed. She told me to try 1% of the PZ-44 in the formula, and also if that didnít work to reduce the mix time, or maybe try the dough not long after it is rolled out. She said the crust wouldnít have as good of taste if the dough was used not as long as after I rolled out the dough and I said I understood that. I really donít think I am going to do all these experiments again to find out what might have happened in my failed attempt, but it was interesting to hear what Jenny had to say. I told Jenny that I had experimented some with Caravan dough enhancers. I also told Jenny that I plan on using PZ-44 in some other experiments.

I had mentioned in the MM thread at Reply 133 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg154053.html#msg154053that John Johansen had offered to send me a sample of Dry Malt DME-B to try in pizza dough or for a pre-mix of ingredients. I had asked John for any technical information or data he would be able to provide, that wasnít of a proprietary nature. John sent me a pdf.document that has some information about the Dry Malt, but not specifically about Dry Malt DME-B. John also told me this kind of malt isnít sold in retail stores and makes a very good pizza crust.

This is just some of what is in the pdf.document.

Offered in liquid and dry forms, Pizza Perfect Malts provide superior proofing development because they promote full dough fermentation. Your customers will appreciate the mouth-watering flavor and full-bodied texture as well as the crustís enticing shine and brown color.

The secret to a better pizza isnít in the toppings. Itís in the crust! Make your pizza noticeably better. Add Pizza Perfect Malts to your formulas. Your customers are sure to taste and see the difference.

Malt Adds Pizzazz to Your PizzaWe recommend starting with 2 to 5% of the flour weight. (John told me he recommends 2% of the flour weight)

Start by adding all the ingredients and mix for 9 to 12 minutesPlace dough on work bench to rest for 5 to 10 minutesForm dough into desired dough ball size, proof for 45 to 90 minutesNow place dough into retarder for 8 to 12 hours.

Malt Types

The food processor has various types of malts available: extracts, syrups, liquid and dry, enzymatic or non-enzymatic, dark or light colored, on the flavor and color, enzyme systems, texture, and eye appeal desired in the finished product. The type malt selected for use thus should be determined by considering it solids content, enzymatic activity, color, pH, reducing sugar level, protein, ash and microbiological profiles.

What I am wondering is when I get the sample of the dry malt John said he is sending me, what might be the Bakerís percents for the above formula for me to try for a NY style 16Ē pizza.

Norma,

The baker's percent for the dry malt is 2.5/100 = 2.5%. Unfortunately, the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html does not include dry malt as one of its ingredients, only the liquid form. However, you can use the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as a proxy and ignore the volume measurements. For your purposes, you will have to decide on the thickness factor to use in the tool to get the weight of dough to use for a 16" pizza.

The dough formulation you posted does not say the form of yeast to use. You might have to check with John to see which form is intended.

Once you are ready and if you need help with the formulation, let me know.

The baker's percent for the dry malt is 2.5/100 = 2.5%. Unfortunately, the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html does not include dry malt as one of its ingredients, only the liquid form. However, you can use the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as a proxy and ignore the volume measurements. For your purposes, you will have to decide on the thickness factor to use in the tool to get the weight of dough to use for a 16" pizza.

The dough formulation you posted does not say the form of yeast to use. You might have to check with John to see which form is intended.

Once you are ready and if you need help with the formulation, let me know.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that the bakerís percent for dry malt is 2.5% and I could use the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as a proxy. I probably want to use a TF of about 0.10. I will ask John what type of yeast is recommended for the formula given in the document. I will then let you know if I need help with the formulation.

I did email John last evening to ask him what kind of yeast was in the formula in the pdf.document he sent me. John sent me an email this morning and said he doesnít know what type of yeast was used in that formula. I think I will just go with a regular Lehmann dough formula with a hydration of 61% because the amount of water in the formula in the document seems really low to me. I donít think I have ever made a NY style dough with that low of a hydration. I donít even know if someone tried that formula out.

I copied the rest of the document and then scanned it on my printer. This is the rest of the document. I tried to copy and paste it here, but that didn't work.

I could have made it easier on myself if I had copied and scanned the other part of the document the way I did the last two. At least I wouldn't have had to type all the other stuff. At least I learned there is an easier way to post documents.

I did email John last evening to ask him what kind of yeast was in the formula in the pdf.document he sent me. John sent me an email this morning and said he doesnít know what type of yeast was used in that formula. I think I will just go with a regular Lehmann dough formula with a hydration of 61% because the amount of water in the formula in the document seems really low to me. I donít think I have ever made a NY style dough with that low of a hydration. I donít even know if someone tried that formula out.

Norma,

From the dough formulation you posted and from the related preparation steps, I would say that the 1% yeast is intended to be cake yeast. So, for ADY you would use 0.50% and for IDY you would use about 0.33%. You are correct that the formula hydration is on the low side. It will actually be higher or lower than 52.5% depending on whether the malt product is wet or dry. The 1.5% oil will also have a "wetting" effect. The dough formulation you posted most reminds me of the original Big Dave Ostrander Old Faithful dough formulation.

From the dough formulation you posted and from the related preparation steps, I would say that the 1% yeast is intended to be cake yeast. So, for ADY you would use 0.50% and for IDY you would use about 0.33%. You are correct that the formula hydration is on the low side. It will actually be higher or lower than 52.5% depending on whether the malt product is wet or dry. The 1.5% oil will also have a "wetting" effect. The dough formulation you posted most reminds me of the original Big Dave Ostrander Old Faithful dough formulation.

Peter

Peter,

Interesting, just from the formula I posted, and the preparation steps you thought the 1% yeast was intended to be cake yeast. I still donít know how you figure out that stuff. Thanks, for figuring out the amounts or ADY and IDY. I remember trying out the Old Faithful Dough in this thread with EL-7 and I thought that was a dry dough, but the EL-7 made that dough seem wetter. I will wait until I get the malt sample, and then decide what kind of formula I might want to try. Maybe, I might try the dough formula posted with malt and cake yeast.

I made an experimental dough last evening using the Dry Malt DME-B in the dough. I donít know if the amount of Dry Malt DME-B was the right amount to use, but I just went from Peterís post at Reply 217 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg154075.html#msg154075 that the bakerís percent for dry malt is 2.5%, so that is what I used in the expanded dough calculation tool, and used the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as the proxy.

I have no idea how the pizza will turn out using that amount of Dry Malt DME-B in the formula I used, but the dough does have a nice color.

This is the formula I used, and also a pictures of the dough last night and this morning.