Winston - I've spent too much time today already on this thread so I'm not going to argue with your every point. But economics, being the study of decisions made on how scarce resources are utilized, has everything to do with this discussion. Your other assertions are opinion, and have validity in form or fashion, much as those of many of the other posters. I respect them and your right to them, even though I disagree with some of them.

My use of the UAW worker hanging doors was figurative. I do know UAW workers that earn in total compensation in excess of $110k a year. I would also point out that whether you or I like it or not, education IS a business. We may both think it shouldn't be treated like one, but it is nonetheless. Even in the public schools, traditional schools are challenged AND threatened by charter schools because funds per student transfer with the student, as you know. Discussion of labor laws and whether or not unions are necessary is, again, largely opinion. I've worked union jobs and non-union. The union jobs took money from me, gave me nothing in return, fostered a culture of indifference for the employer, and put me out of a paycheck for the sake of trying to force a 10% raise during a bad job market (early 80s) - so I have no love for them, as admitted. But if the laws on the books aren't protecting employees (I would argue they do a very adequate job) then they should be fixed, not left to a private organization of questionable virtue to deal with.

Got a quick flash for you on one other issue too - the topic of BAs competing for burger-flipper jobs - while there may be some of this, those BAs aren't taking those jobs that pay less than their unemployment check, as has been documented recently in studies and reported in the papers. Can't say I blame them either. I do know a few colleagues that have taken jobs in construction fields, or insurance, and real estate.

*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+If you don't know your rights, you don't have any rights. Demand your elected officials support the US Constitution.*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+

It's interesting to see so many theories being thrown about - with little reference to what has actually been going on in education over the last two decades. And while there is often a general reference to all the countries outperforming us in education, there is hardly ever mention of what specifically they are actually doing that produces those results (hint: it goes against many popular theories).

Many people seem not to be aware that pretty much every popular theory has already been tried multiple times and in different ways in this country - and that none have ever turned out to either significantly improve educational results, or reduce costs; amongst these are for-profit schools and for-profit education management, charter schools (which are mostly non-union, testing the effect of de-unionizing - they suffer from excessive teacher turnover as a result), and vouchers.

Particularly with regards to economic theory, here's a reality check:

VOUCHERS - AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS GONE

former voucher proponent Sol Stern...acknowledging that voucher programs for poor children had "hit a wall"...concluded: "Education reformers ought to resist unreflective support for elegant-sounding theories, derived from the study of economic activity, that don't produce verifiable results in the classroom"..... "It hasn't worked like we thought it would in theory."

The only results being produced come from a variety a variety of small factors (often unglamorous - and not interesting talking points) working in combination, being laboriously developed through research and experimentation, and often requiring increased resources including properly targeted funding (but not "throwing money"). It's also worth noting that our longstanding private education sector - non-profit private schools - generally only significantly outperform public schools, in the cases of the outstanding schools that spend more per student than public schools, and often significantly more.

The countries out-performing us in education, mostly spend a proportionately greater amount on education - much of it directed towards providing salaries more competitive with the private sector, in order to attract the "best and brightest" to teaching - and run their school systems through a national system focused on professionalism and results, rather than our politicized approach with amateur local boards.

“The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present.....We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.” - Abraham Lincoln, annual message to Congress, December 1, 1862

Purple patriot wrote:Vouchers are just a scam to divert public money to private schools for the wealthy, none of whom need the assistance. Unions are never necessary when workers, in this case teachers, are paid what they're worth.

When one considers the four magnificent high schools Denver citizens paid to construct in the 1920's, North, South, East and West, all of which are still in use, votes of this kind are further evidence that America's glory days are behind her.

Talk about scams, your endorsement of this 103 scam shows you don't have a clue about how it was drafted nor how the funds would have been used. hint, they would NOT have gone to educating children what so ever

I'd love to hear your ridiculous logic on how "REQUIRING THAT THE ADDITIONAL REVENUES RESULTING FROM THESE INCREASED TAX RATES BE SPENT ONLY TO FUND PUBLIC EDUCATION FROM PRESCHOOL THROUGH TWELFTH GRADE AND PUBLIC POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION" would "NOT have gone to educating children what so ever."

Don't bother Righties with facts. It gets them all shook up.

Corporations are not people!Get corporate money out of our politics!The Republicans in congress are the problem. Vote them out!

Don't let this get in the way of your discussion of failing schools in America (if you are using international test scores as a measure)

Of all the nations participating in the PISA assessment, the U.S. has, by far, the largest number of students living in poverty--21.7%. The next closest nations in terms of poverty levels are the United Kingdom and New Zealand have poverty rates that are 75% of ours.

?? U.S. students in schools with 10% or less poverty are number one country in the world.

?? U.S. students in schools with 10-24.9% poverty are third behind Korea, and Finland.

Now, I wonder, did all the best teachers in America choose to go teach in those particular schools or perhaps is there another explanation. It's amazing to me how many people consider themselves experts in this area based on their 12 years of going to a school.