Yea I fail to see what the issue is with the coaches named. I know I personally would most likely not be playing HD today if it weren't for Daalter inviting me to his conference and giving me advice when I was still a new coach.

I haven't said anything about any of those individual coaches, and I'll happily defend some of them.

What's worse, the topic of my thread or billyg name dropping coaches like these then loosely claiming that some of them have been long term cheaters? Because I don't think they'll be too happy. Or maybe we should just remove it altogether because people think the sacred cows are above criticism, and hypothetical rules like one team per world (despite the fact that they probably haven't even seen this thread yet because it's the middle of the night).

"wiping those teams would sound good for a minute... and i'm sure some of those multiple team guys are cheating, so you'd find a few cheaters...but the game can't survive wiping out so many of the teams from so many of the stable long term members of the community."

....shouldn't we all have beef with that statement? pretty much sounds like admission of guilt to me.

Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 1:44:00 AM (view original):It would seem to me that the beef would be with this statement:

"wiping those teams would sound good for a minute... and i'm sure some of those multiple team guys are cheating, so you'd find a few cheaters...but the game can't survive wiping out so many of the teams from so many of the stable long term members of the community."

....shouldn't we all have beef with that statement? pretty much sounds like admission of guilt to me.

I think you are misinterpreting what he was saying. Hes not saying that any of the coaches named are cheating but that some people with multiple teams are cheating.

Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 1:44:00 AM (view original):It would seem to me that the beef would be with this statement:

"wiping those teams would sound good for a minute... and i'm sure some of those multiple team guys are cheating, so you'd find a few cheaters...but the game can't survive wiping out so many of the teams from so many of the stable long term members of the community."

....shouldn't we all have beef with that statement? pretty much sounds like admission of guilt to me.

I think you are misinterpreting what he was saying. Hes not saying that any of the coaches named are cheating but that some people with multiple teams are cheating.

I don't have an opinion on the coaches named. I do think he is implying you'd find cheaters among them, though.

The only thing I care about is that WIS takes action on coaches with more than one team in any world. That should not be allowed. There should be no grandfather rule. Sorry. Pick your favorite dynasty team of the two and the other one kiss goodbye. I'm new to WIS. I can't believe how totally obvious this one is.

There should not need to be some elaborate time-consuming investigation of "is this user actually cheating with these two teams or not?" That's stupid. Two teams in one world should be considered cheating and needs to stop. How many of us complaining to WIS will it take to make it happen?

Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 1:44:00 AM (view original):It would seem to me that the beef would be with this statement:

"wiping those teams would sound good for a minute... and i'm sure some of those multiple team guys are cheating, so you'd find a few cheaters...but the game can't survive wiping out so many of the teams from so many of the stable long term members of the community."

....shouldn't we all have beef with that statement? pretty much sounds like admission of guilt to me.

Craig, HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD, and I don't understand why this statement on it's own is not extremely controversial. He's saying that he is implicitly aware of major long-term users with multiple accounts using them to cheat. How is this not scandalous on it's own.

However, to be fair, there has been a recent line of thought that concerns "grandfathering in" certain well known users to have multiple teams per world despite the practice being disallowed to all other coaches. So, the quote I posted by billyg was his reasoning for extending this privilege to specific users, AND WITHIN HIS JUSTIFICATION HE READILY ADMITTED THIS PRIVILEGE HAD ALREADY BEEN VIOLATED, yet despite this it was necessary for the "survival" of the game.

It really can't be laid out more plainly than that. Not mention how matter-of-factly the notion was proposed, which is scary in it's own right, he is saying that there are certain players that are too big to fail (because without them their knowledge won't trickle down to the rest of us second class users and in a week we'll be starting centers at the shooting guard position).

Ok. That's fair enough, if that's your beef, then I understand (now) the point you are aiming at. I did not take his post in the same way you meant it to be taken because, I took it as a blanket statement, meaning whatever group is chosen to be singled out and eliminated, some cheaters will be caught in the net.

I do not view myself as a cheater, I do not condone cheating in any way, shape or form and I have NEVER used an alias account to unfairly target someones recruits, gain unfair scouting advantage for one team by using the cash of another of my teams. I have never conspired with myself or with another coach in any kind of player auction, or to throw a game, be it regular season, CT, PI, or NT and I have had 2 teams meet in all 4 situations at one time or another in the 6 years I have been a user of this site. It's rare, but you don't get to pick your post season brackets. I don't schedule my same world teams to play each other, even in exhibition. I go to sometimes great lengths to NOT recruit players from ANY same state where another teams players are from, REGARDLESS of where those teams are located OR the state in question. I HAVE on occasion sitemailed a coach to see if a recruit is a priority for them or if he's just a place holder, but those occasions are rare and almost always occur when a coach has more considering than he has spots open. Most times I will simply charge in regardless, or not, as the situation dictates. I can't see anyway to make that example cheating, without a lot more info changing hands and their never is anymore than a "yes he is" or a "no he isn't". On the rare occasion when I get the No answer, I NEVER jump right on, but simply wait and see what happens as things develop. People do change their minds.

But, I also know that people are always going to try to game the system. Whether it's HD or any other game, you have people for whatever reason are always going to be looking for any way to get a leg up on the competition, so I accept that in any group you can pick and eliminate, you will take some cheaters out when you do.

If they eliminate multi accounts in the same world, some will quit, some will stay, and some will find ways around it. IP washers, throw away debit/credit cards, multiple computers, etc. And I'm positive that some creative soul out there will think of other ways that I can't even imagine at the moment. That's just life and people in general.

Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 1:44:00 AM (view original):It would seem to me that the beef would be with this statement:

"wiping those teams would sound good for a minute... and i'm sure some of those multiple team guys are cheating, so you'd find a few cheaters...but the game can't survive wiping out so many of the teams from so many of the stable long term members of the community."

....shouldn't we all have beef with that statement? pretty much sounds like admission of guilt to me.

I think you are misinterpreting what he was saying. Hes not saying that any of the coaches named are cheating but that some people with multiple teams are cheating.

Noooooo, I understand exactly what you mean about him not referencing any of them by name, but when listing specific coaches of this caliber then saying:

"wiping those veteran teams out might sound good for a minute, it would at least get easier to win championships! and im sure a few of the multiple team guys are cheating and so youd catch a few cheaters, too - just like you would wiping out ANY segment of this game's population. but i honestly dont think the game can survive wiping out so many teams from so many of the stable long term members of the community."

you would have to be willfully naive to think he is referring to anyone other than elite coaches. Therefore, I don't think that I am misinterpreting anything, he couldn't have been much clearer....which is the precise reason this situation is fubar.

I appreciate your thread nachopuzzle. As a relative newbie to HD I initially looked upon those lists of successful coaches with multiple championships and was very impressed. But now after reading the other thread and billyg's comment that has been placed under a magnifying glass from this thread, I'm not sure what to think. Is it mere coincidence that many of the "elite" coaches have multiple accounts in the same world? I would like to believe that many (hopefully all) of these coaches are NOT cheating but unfortunately there is no way to really know. So how impressed should I really be with their success? It's like the steroids issue in baseball. How impressive are the accomplishments of those players knowing there's a possibility they may have used PEDs?

I agree the whole situation is fubar and only exacerbated by a comment from an elite coach.

There is no need to have 2 teams in the same world unless you have a team in every other world and want to get an 11th one.

If possible, WIS could (should) move the 2nd team's coaching record to another world so that the coach does not need to start out at Div-3 with no wins.

But it is too easy to cheat with 2 teams in the same world.

If people want to quit because they have to have 2 teams in the same world, then let them quit.

It is an unfair advantage, pure and simple. You get advantages that others do not have and the only way to not take advantage of them is to very much go out of your way to do so. I mean, if you have Div-1A team in Texas and a Div-1 team in Florida ... and if you are running low on cash with your Florida team and you scouted Arkansas from Texas ... it is ludicrous to think that you would/could forget that PlayerA is both good and undecided in Arkansas and would be a good pickup for your Florida team.

It is possible to not cheat with multiple teams in the same world. It is IMPOSSIBLE to not collude though. You have information that other coaches do not have about the world from another coach. You know recruiting info from the other coach in the same world, you know his recruiting list and exactly how much money he has to recruit. You know which players he wants and who are backups. You know everything about 2 teams. You are even making agreements not to recruit the same guys or the same states, etc.

Why do we need to allow something that makes cheating so easy, and just hope for the best?

Fair enough nacho. I didn't read it the way you did and I didn't understand exactly what you were railing about. Once I came to understand what your aim was,I wanted to explain why I reacted the way I did. I long ago gave up in trying to sway others to my point of view. This particular debate is was old and tired 5 years ago and, it seems, just as deadlocked now as it has ever been. It's the HD version of the abortion issue.

Actually, I'm a little disheartened to know that not only is FREEHD back, but that it in fact never really left. Even more so now that it's made an appearance here in the forums.

Posted by dvgagz on 4/18/2013 2:47:00 AM (view original):I appreciate your thread nachopuzzle. As a relative newbie to HD I initially looked upon those lists of successful coaches with multiple championships and was very impressed. But now after reading the other thread and billyg's comment that has been placed under a magnifying glass from this thread, I'm not sure what to think. Is it mere coincidence that many of the "elite" coaches have multiple accounts in the same world? I would like to believe that many (hopefully all) of these coaches are NOT cheating but unfortunately there is no way to really know. So how impressed should I really be with their success? It's like the steroids issue in baseball. How impressive are the accomplishments of those players knowing there's a possibility they may have used PEDs?

I agree the whole situation is fubar and only exacerbated by a comment from an elite coach.

Honestly, dvgagz, I would recommend paying close attention to the forums and finding out which users - and they do exist - are beyond reproach. And I hope you don't read this thread and think that this site is a snake pit, because it's not. I'll send you a sitemail with some of the names that helped me yo.

It's possible to cheat by chatting in the coaches corner too....BAN THAT TOO
it's also possible to cheat through site mail, uh oh....BAN HAMMER!
What's that? Two owners know each other in real life? Oh they can cheat through email, phone calls, and texts so we should ban computers and phones too!
While I agree that something should be done to prevent people using a second team in a world to help their first team, a blanket banning of second accounts is not the answer. 1) WiS will alienate a lot of paying customers by doing this and 2) it's not that hard to get around. I used to play an app game that banned you from selling resources to your own alt account by stopping accounts being able to buy and sell between different accounts using the same IP address...well within seconds of that update going live people already knew how to get around it and that info spread like wild fire. By banning accounts, the only thing you will do is make there be less transparency with alts...people will find a way around it and not tell anyone...where as now I'd be willing to bet at least 90% of coaches using a second account would be willing to disclose that fact at any time now.

kash, hehe, it's all good. Just because not everyone can be swayed doesn't mean the conversation was all for not. Maybe WIS should switch to a buy-one-get-one-free or something? As a small personal hint, when I play DIII I typically use teams away from recruiting hubs so new/freebie players don't mess up my recruiting through their own sheer ignorance, but that's just me.