OldDawg wrote:So the fact that they were investigated and warned (and they denied and then covered up) prior to this does not bear on your logic here?

Again, there is being punished and there is this, this is exactly what Peeker said it is, a bullshit run for the hills because we are going to get sued move.

Nothing more, nothing less.

The entire body is infected, it is the nature of the sport, but instead of admitting as much and reasonably managing the situation with antibiotics the NFL cut their arm off to front like they were healed so they can still hang out in public.

These guys got caught, instead of a fair punishment the NFL tried to kill the entire org for a year and did kill the coach for a year. And again, these are co-professionals, no one is caring for amateur athletes here.

Fucking christ I hate homers.

You're talking about right and wrong. Justice.

The NFL could give a fuck about that - they needed a sacrifice and it's way easier for Goodell to punish the coaches than try and go after the players with the NFLPA looking over his shoulder.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

He was punished more harshly (permanent termination of his job, not suspension) for something he didn't oversee. He did not organize the violations.

Payton was aware of, helped organize, okayed, blessed, endorsed and then denied and covered up a bounty program. Payton was behind it. Tressel was not behind the transactions, he turned his head. He was wrong and got rightfully terminated. I am shocked why Payton is not terminated. It will be interesting to see what NO ownership does now. They can now make a statement and terminate Payton. Heck, Penn State terminated the legend and he did turn in the culprit involved to his superiors.

Edit: Eye, your defense seems to me to be "boys will be boys" so that's ok.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

I was calling the guy above a homer for jumping on the "everyone does in in the NCAA!!!" angle.

And again, there is no point in further discussing this if you cannot differentiate a man responsible for others covering up the actions of that crew from a consortium of profesionals acting together (and Payton didn't organize anything, that was all Greg Williams and why he apparently is life banned, which is pretty damned unfair in its own right).

e0y2e3 wrote:I was calling the guy above a homer for jumping on the "everyone does in in the NCAA!!!" angle.

And again, there is no point in further discussing this if you cannot differentiate a man responsible for others covering up the actions of that crew from a consortium of profesionals acting together (and Payton didn't organize anything, that was all Greg Williams and why he apparently is life banned, which is pretty damned unfair in its own right).

When you're in charge, organizing vs awareness/endorsing/covering-up is merely a matter of semantics at best.

If the NFL is fining guys for cheap hits, it certainly needs to be extremely harsh with those in charge who encourage it. And "co-professionals" is a neat phrase. But the coach is in charge. And the buck stops there.

I mean, give yourself a visual. Payton being interrogated by the NFL. What can he say AT ALL, to give himself the benefit of the doubt. What defense can he have?? Especially when he was clearly instructed by HIS BOSSES, the NFL, that this must stop. There is no defense. You think he could use your co-professional defense??

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

pod2dawg wrote:Player suspensions are coming, and I would not want to be John Vilma.

I don't believe the NFLPA is "in charge" of these suspensions. I think the NFL is seeking their input.

And this situation points more to fallacy that the coaches aren't totally responsible in this instance. The NFL is going to suspend/fine players for doing what they were told? The crazy answer is, "yes" because they were co-professionals who should know better???

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

Wrong, the NFLPA is running the show, because the NFL doesn't want them to snap.

And is I don't understand how Tomlin telling/letting/supporting Harrison trying to kill people every game (not to mention never once disciplining him on his own) is different then supporting the player pooling their own money for doing the same.

Punishment for any Saints players involved will be determined later, because the league is still reviewing the case with the NFL Players Association.

"While I will not address player conduct at this time, I am profoundly troubled by the fact that players - including leaders among the defensive players - embraced this program so enthusiastically and participated with what appears to have been a deliberate lack of concern for the well-being of their fellow players," Goodell said.

The NFLPA asked to be able to perform their own investigation and Goodell is letting them. He's trying to forge a working relationship with DeMo and trying to let the NFLPA feel like they're empowered.

So when the NFLPA comes back and says "Yep, they did wrong" and the NFL hammers them, the NFLPA won't yammer about not being involved and the players will feel like it's not just another case of "the Man" keeping them down.

It's a courtesy that the NFL didn't have to give the NFLPA, but it doesn't hurt them to give it, and it buys them some goodwill. And they'll do what they want anyway.

pup wrote:Every football player goes out and attempts to take out the opposing team's best player every game? Really?

If they don't they probably don't make it.

You try to hurt the guy accross from you on the field, period.

And it's pretty much confirmed most of the NFL has these fake little bounty programs.

This is an issue, but it is not a near death blow to a franchise level issue.

Find me tape of the guy grabbing a QB on the ground a twisting his leg just to blow an ACL and then you have an issue. But trying to legally hit someone in a means that takes them out is reality, period.

Go back and look at the hit on the final play of Kurt Warner's career and tell me that is just a guy playing football.

Go back and look at the guy dive at Favre's ankles while someone is hitting him up top and tell me that is a guy playing football.

I remember thinking both those hits looked shitty real time. Now seeing this come out? Saints are lucky to have a franchise to lose draft picks, IMO.

e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and Tress got a REAL nice settlement from OSU to shut up and go away. Rather than being told he had to make zero money for the next year of his life.

The hell are you talking about?

Tress got a 5 year show cause effectively ending his football coaching CAREER in the NCAA, Payton essentially got a 1 year show cause. Not like he can't go make money in some other league, and its not like he wont be a HC in 2013.

Ask Peyton which he'd rather have, a one year suspension or a five year suspension with a severance check. Fucking dumb comparison.

The NFLPA asked to be able to perform their own investigation and Goodell is letting them. He's trying to forge a working relationship with DeMo and trying to let the NFLPA feel like they're empowered.

So when the NFLPA comes back and says "Yep, they did wrong" and the NFL hammers them, the NFLPA won't yammer about not being involved and the players will feel like it's not just another case of "the Man" keeping them down.

It's a courtesy that the NFL didn't have to give the NFLPA, but it doesn't hurt them to give it, and it buys them some goodwill. And they'll do what they want anyway.

The NFLPA asked to be able to perform their own investigation and Goodell is letting them. He's trying to forge a working relationship with DeMo and trying to let the NFLPA feel like they're empowered.

So when the NFLPA comes back and says "Yep, they did wrong" and the NFL hammers them, the NFLPA won't yammer about not being involved and the players will feel like it's not just another case of "the Man" keeping them down.

It's a courtesy that the NFL didn't have to give the NFLPA, but it doesn't hurt them to give it, and it buys them some goodwill. And they'll do what they want anyway.

Given no players have been penalized this is a very compelling take.

This, btw, would be a great new HBO Series plot line.

Gary Busey as HC.

Its a unique dynamic on two fronts:

1) Fining/suspending players for doing what they were told to do?

2) The NFLPA dynamic: The NFLPA represents both the players who were executing the bounties and those who were potential victims of those bounties. They are supposed to make a stand for player safety (ala last labor negatiations), and protect athletes from fines/suspensions. Hmmm. Rock, meet hard place.

The NFL knows the quandry the NFLPA is in and is smart to put them in the middle of it. My guess is the NFLPA will back/support player fines and suspensions and have safety rule the day. The NFL, then, doesn't come off looking the bad guy.

This is different territory here indeed.

Last edited by OldDawg on Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

"He was an animal, and a well conditioned animal. And every time he hit you, he tried to put you in the cemetery, not the hospital."~Deacon Jones on Dick Butkus.

I know, I know....Times are different, it's a different game now. Players are better conditioned, stronger, faster and along with that comes the increased possibility of a career ending hit, especially if the hit is intentionally delivered to that end. It's sad that this whole thing comes down to money though. In my mind, any player who has to be bribed to hit as hard and as fast as he possibly can on EVERY play, shouldn't be playing...but then I'm a dinosaur. NASCAR is regulating themselves right out of business. Et tu', NFL?

"Well....I suppose if this were any other team, I might find the whole thing funny. In fact if this were any other team I might just fuckin'DIElaughin'!!!"

Pondering the "bounty system" compared to these more socially-accepted and encouraged/allowed practices.

After yesterday watching the obligatory retaliatory bean ball on the Indians game. And then the obligatory retaliatory early-game "fight" in the hockey play-off game.

Do you guys think there'll be a day when coaches are punished for encouraging/allowing these retaliatory actions?These are indeed out-right expected athlete behaviors.

I know the "bounties" were for incapacitating a player to the point of inability to play the game. And these pay-back pitches are "tactfully" aimed at backs/buttocks, and these hockey fights rarely result in injury, but are we heading to the point of coach accountability in these area. Hey, they eject the player...

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

Spin wrote:That's a bunch of shit. It pisses me off they're screwing up all of the ESPN channels with this crap. Bull. Shit.

#1 What GM knows what the hell is talking about when they're using play calling terminology in the first place?

#2 Who the hell knows the other team's terminology?

#3 What the hell good would it do if he could decifer #1 and #2, if he had no way of getting the information to the Saints coached in enough time to do something about it anyhow???

"UH well, he said a bunch of numbers, said something about Liz, whoever that is, his bulldog is 32, rip something something, and Georgia is red. And it sounds like 88 is taking a deuce."

Bernie Fine thinks this is a pile-on...

1. It's a violation of federal law2. It's yet another shit stain on the integrity of the game3. From what I understand, they had capability to monitor all headset communication - meaning opposing coaches discussing protection schemes, adjustments, coverages, what to do on the next series, etc. - not just playcalls.

I'd say this is kinda a big deal and most likely the end of Loomis in the NFL.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Spin wrote:That's a bunch of shit. It pisses me off they're screwing up all of the ESPN channels with this crap. Bull. Shit.

#1 What GM knows what the hell is talking about when they're using play calling terminology in the first place?

#2 Who the hell knows the other team's terminology?

#3 What the hell good would it do if he could decifer #1 and #2, if he had no way of getting the information to the Saints coached in enough time to do something about it anyhow???

That doesn't even matter.

You listen in on the opposition's feed, you get fucked by the NFL. It's not a surprise. Everyone in the NFL knows it.

You don't take nude photos of women through keyholes and then claim "Hey, I didn't even jerk off to them!" You know perfectly well that it's illegal, and if you get caught, you pay the price.

I'll wait for the smoking gun. So far, OTL has no proof, and everyone else is running with it. And the bad thing is, it doesn't matter at this point. Just like Bernie Fine, he was blasted in the national news. When they found out all of those fucks were lying, you can hear a pin drop now. He's ruined.

So far this is a bunch of anonymously sourced allegations, no more. The credibility of the investigative reporting by ESPN and OTL took a real hit over the last year or two with their OSU bandwagon-jumping. I'll keep my powder dry until I see some evidence.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Spin wrote:That's a bunch of shit. It pisses me off they're screwing up all of the ESPN channels with this crap. Bull. Shit.

#1 What GM knows what the hell is talking about when they're using play calling terminology in the first place?

#2 Who the hell knows the other team's terminology?

#3 What the hell good would it do if he could decifer #1 and #2, if he had no way of getting the information to the Saints coached in enough time to do something about it anyhow???

That doesn't even matter.

You listen in on the opposition's feed, you get fucked by the NFL. It's not a surprise. Everyone in the NFL knows it.

You don't take nude photos of women through keyholes and then claim "Hey, I didn't even jerk off to them!" You know perfectly well that it's illegal, and if you get caught, you pay the price.

I'll wait for the smoking gun. So far, OTL has no proof, and everyone else is running with it. And the bad thing is, it doesn't matter at this point. Just like Bernie Fine, he was blasted in the national news. When they found out all of those fucks were lying, you can hear a pin drop now. He's ruined.

Agreed.

I'm just stating that if it is true, he's in for an ass-reaming, and he deserves it.

I just don't know how anyone can be surprised that ESpin is running with this. Sports is entertainment nowadays. ESpin is the E! of sports.

danwismar wrote:So far this is a bunch of anonymously sourced allegations, no more. The credibility of the investigative reporting by ESPN and OTL took a real hit over the last year or two with their OSU bandwagon-jumping. I'll keep my powder dry until I see some evidence.

All very true. The "source" however also went to the feds - now it's one thing to fabricate a story to the WWL and watch them step on their collective dicks rushing to judgement - but it's another to lie to the FBI.

Either way, not what Rodger baby wanted 3 days before his prime time dog and pony show.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team