Belgium to ban the burqa soon

2011-05-25 21:40

Brussels - Belgium will soon become the second country in Europe to ban the burqa in public places, after the parliament approved legislation forbidding full veils, the bill's author said on Wednesday.

The legislation quietly cleared the Senate last week after it was overwhelmingly approved by the lower chamber of deputies last month, when only one Green lawmaker voted against it and two abstained.

The new law will take effect 10 days after it is published in Belgium's official journal, in around one month. France became the first European country to ban the burqa on April 11.

The Belgian legislation, drafted by liberal lawmaker Daniel Bacquelaine, bans all clothing that hides the face.

"It is a law that takes into account a fundamental principle, the equality between men and women," Bacquelaine told AFP.

"Moreover, if we want an open society, the visibility of the face is essential. Humanity comes from one's face," he said.

Lawmakers first voted for the legislation in April 2010, but it was shelved after the government fell following legislative elections two months later.

Only a few hundred women in Belgium are believed to wear the burqa, a full body veil, or the niqab, which hides the face.

Comments

Yaseen - 2011-05-25 22:10

"It is a law that not takes into account a fundamental principle of women in Islam... Modesty"

lotus.lindi - 2011-05-28 10:54

I believe the Qu'ran does not require the burqa. It is therefore not binding on Muslim women. If one wants to live under Sharia Law, one oughtn't choose to live in a judeo-christian democracy.

Hannah - 2011-05-29 08:15

Fantastic I couldnt agree more with banning the burqa lets see who will be next Holland Germany Im right behind all of Europe banning the burqa

Frungy - 2011-05-30 02:02

Yaseen, I can't wear a motorcycle helmet in a public place (bank, shopping mall, etc), nor can I legally tint the windows of my car. These laws have nothing to do with modesty, but rather public security. This law is the same, and it's just common sense. If it is permissable to not wear the veil during Haj then it should be permissable not to wear it all year around... or is that, once again, too much like common sense for you?

MnrFotograaf - 2011-05-30 07:32

Covering a face has nothing to do with modesty. That is an age old lie, go and read the ealiest Qrans and see for yourself.

PikeLee - 2011-05-30 12:18

@Yaseen Funny how Muslim countries don't allow any of the basic freedoms that they enjoy in the west. When we travel to Saudi Arabia, we obey their laws. No matter how suffocating or crazy we think they are. Countries have every right to enforce what ever laws they see fit. Exactly how the Muslim countries do. Let anyone try to build a church in Iran, and see what happens. But you Muslims have the freedom to build mosques on every street corner. Enjoying the freedom of the west? No? Go back to the middle east.

whereu - 2011-05-30 12:25

Yaseen, Nanima,
The point that you are missing is that some women have no choice but to wear burqa. In any case in our dangerous world we cannot accept the position that people can move around in public places without the ability of others to recognise them.
Some are quite happy to use democracy to further the aims of Islam in the west while denying the right of others to promote their religions in Islamic countries. It doesn't stop at dress code. Some are trying to force sharia in democratic countries (eg UK).
No, most who love democracy don't want to know a belief system that is happy to kill those who oppose Islam's views ( reference: blasphemy laws in Pakistan), or stone women on charges of so called adultery.

Matt - 2011-05-30 14:26

@ Lindi - "oughtn't" - lol haven't heard that word in ages!
@ SayWhat - before listing "facts", live in Europe first...
1. Most of the Islamic populice of Europe did not "choose" to live in Europe, they were born there and are second or third generation EUROPEANS.
(Most have dual citizenship provided their countries of residency allow it. Also, in my experience, they have no desire to integrate with their country, they often don't speak the country's language. This in turn "justifies" the Europeans' motives for hating them so much, which in turn alienates the Muslim residents, so they become even more isolated and hateful. Vicious circle)
3. An enshrined right to practice the religion or culture of your choice is a hallmark of democracy and I believe civilization.
(Agreed, but Muslims in Europe are not as friendly and respectful as those in SA. They insist on their rights, they cry discrimination when it suits them, and when they get rights, they want more - see the UK where they're pushing for Sharia - so, a respect of one's religion is one thing, but then give the same respect back to the country that gives you freedom, benefits, respect, don't abuse it and bite the hand that feeds! Besides, just try living as a Christian in a Muslim country... some places have it right, some places will outright kill you)

Yusuf Bassa - 2011-05-30 16:17

Peace of allah upon all those whom Allah granted Guidance...
I would like to hand out an invitation to Islam and firstly to show you the purity of the religion of Islam encompassing every problems of mankind with its set of solutions,to all those whom are seeking Guidance...
Firstly I would like to clear up the mounting tension with which I see having built up amongst all those who have commented...
We belief in the start of mankind through ADAM and EVE upon them and apon all prophets that followed till the final prophet Muhammed (SAW) be peace and blessings till the day of resurruction and beyond... Muhammed who came and confirmed Jesus as the Messire of GOD the son of the virgin Mary who was sent to the Jews who received him not as a prophet,(Muhammed) is the natural successor to christ and the ARABs whom are commonly refered to as their (Jews) brethren, and Muhammed's(SAW)coming was confirmed and foretold by Jesus as refered to in the bible in numerous places,viz; Deut. 18:18, Deut. 32:21, Matthew 21:43, John 16:7, John 14:26, 1 John 4:1/2 John 14:16, Acts 3:22, Matthew 10:23 and many more places... A warning was also given in the bible for those who would reject The final prophet (SAW)who was to guide us into "ALL TRUTH"John 16:13, and who was to say what was said unto him to say(Revelation of the Holy Quran)!!!! 2ndly the Law regarding the Burqa was ordained in that Holy Quran, "to draw the face coverings... when that law was heard by the believing women,they hastened...

Matt - 2011-05-30 16:40

@ Yusuf - salam aikum! Thank you for taking time to explain that to us, however I have a question - you said Jesus is the "Messiah of God" according to Islam. But if Jesus is Messiah (btw, he IS), then why don't you follow Him as the Messiah as Christians do, but rather consider Him a "prophet"? For that matter, my understanding of the Koran is that it says our Trinity is God, Mary and Joseph - which is not true? (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

Rince - 2011-05-30 20:00

The full face covering has nothing to do with Islam. It is a pathetic male continued custom originating from pre-Islam times where it was used as a protective layer against the harsh desert conditions by desert people. it's secondary function was to hide the woman's beauty so that she would not be kidnapped by other tribes. The Koran does mention modest clothing and perhaps even hair covering, but that is also open to debate (If followers were in any position to debate.)

JusticeMan - 2011-05-30 21:36

http://shahada.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57:sara-bokkers-way-to-islam&catid=36:shahada-personal-stories&Itemid=63
Sara Bokker's way to Islam
Written by Sara Bokker
Thursday, 19 February 2009 09:04
Beauty And The East - How Sara Bokker Found Islam
By Sara Bokker
I grew up near a small town in South Dakota. The only religions I was exposed to were various denominations of Christianity. My family and I occasionally attended a Lutheran church, encouraged by my mother, and I was eventually confirmed Lutheran. I did believe in God, but did not believe in all that "church stuff": singing, worshiping pictures of crosses and Jesus, and eating "the body and blood of Christ." It just did not make any sense to me.
For as long as I can remember, something was always missing. There was this hole in my heart, this great sadness and dark loneliness penetrating every cell of my body, mind, and soul. Nothing could fill that hole, and the pain would not go away. I turned to alcohol at a very early age to numb that deep, agonizing pain, but it was only temporary, and it always made me feel even worse after the numbness wore off.
My distance from my family and everyone else around me only increased as I grew older. I had so much disgust and hatred for myself, which caused me to be absolutely horrible to my parents. All I remember wanting was to escape — escape where I was and who I was. However, I found that no matter how hard I tried, I could not escape who I was. Therefore, I was determined to do what I could to escape where I was before I literally destroyed myself.
I became a slave to my looks. I was consumed by it all.
I dropped out of college and left South Dakota for Florida by myself when I was 19. Able to make a fresh start in an exciting new environment, I found a bit of happiness for a brief period of time. But it was only superficial. That pain and sadness, that hole in my heart, was still there.
I spent many years searching for something to heal myself. I turned to psychology, self-help books and tapes and exercise, all of which really did help me a great deal. I was able to gain some strength in order to go on with my life. I did get caught up in the Florida lifestyle though. My various jobs enabled me to gain some easy cash, so it left as fast as it came, thanks to a lot of shopping and partying. In order to keep up with everyone else, I got credit cards — a lot of credit cards — and found myself sinking deeper and deeper in debt, but not even caring since I was just living for the day. I was also caught up in my looks. It cost a lot of time and money to look good. I became a slave to my looks. I was consumed by it all: hairdresser, manicurist, gym, mall, etc. After all, I was how I looked, or so I thought. And I just knew I would be happy if everyone was looking at me, if I got a lot of attention. And I did get attention, but I hated it. It made me miserable. So what would make me happy? I was still searching.
I found love, and that made me happy for a little while. Then I began looking into religions, all types and kinds of religions. Interestingly enough, I discovered there to be some "universal truths" in many religions. It seemed the rest was different, but the essence was the same. My love for all of humanity and the peace in my heart increased greatly with my spiritual search and growth. I came to be most interested in "metaphysical studies," and some sort of Eastern-type meditation and yoga. I adhered mostly to these. However, I wanted more. I wanted someone to tell me exactly what to do and how to do it. I needed rules and structure. And I just could not get that as this particular field is very liberal, abstract, and free.
Eventually I went back to college, and that made me feel much better about myself. I developed a passion for international relations and after I learned the ugly truth about "American History" and "US Foreign Policy," I was horrified with all the injustice, racism, and oppression. It broke my heart. I was so saddened by the suffering in the world. I decided I must do something about it.
I was just too strong-headed to submit the way one must in order to be a Muslim.
I began networking with and educating local high school and college students about the injustice in the Middle East, and eventually I began organizing local activists to travel to Washington, DC, to protest the upcoming war in Iraq. During this process, I met an amazing man — a Muslim — who was doing this very same kind of work. I had never seen someone who had dedicated his life to the causes I cared so much for — justice and human rights. He had started his own organization, which I volunteered for so that I could learn from him and help in the struggle. As we worked together, he shared with me the stories of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the Companions, and the amazing civilization of Islam — the only instance of a just society on this planet. I was shocked to hear these stories, as I knew nothing about this history. I became enchanted with Islam and read all I could about it, eventually reading the Qur'an.
I found in Islam the truth I was searching for. Finally it all made sense. However, I realized I had so many misconceptions and stereotypes I was not even aware of. First of all, I was not keen on the women issue and did not yet understand why they dressed so differently. I said resolutely, "I could never dress like that," as I still had the mindset that "how I look is who I am." So if people could not see how I looked, then I would not even exist. Also, what about "the woman stays at home and just takes care of the kids and the household and listens to her husband"? This was too much for me! There was just no way that I could understand why a woman would stay at home. Who is she if she is not "out there" climbing her way to that glass ceiling? And why should she be so obedient to her husband?
I did find the beautiful answers to these questions, which are very logical and amazingly functional. You see, Islam is not just a religion. It is a complete way of life. In it, you have the guidance and the answers to even the smallest of details, like how to eat and sleep. It is amazing!
However, I still was not willing to commit to Islam. It seemed too tough for me; it was too much responsibility and I was just too strong-headed to submit the way one must in order to be a Muslim. Then one cool January night in 2003, I was on the bus ride back from another antiwar rally in Washington, DC, I was at a crossroads in my life. I hated my job and had recently left my husband as we had grown apart. I had had enough of organizing the antiwar people. I was 29 years old and had no idea what I would do with my life. I broke down and started crying. I said to myself, "What can I do? What can I do? I just want to be a good person and make the world a better place. But how? What should I do?" All of a sudden, the answer came to me: Be a Muslim. That's it! A blanket of comforting peace embraced me. I felt so calm and sure and full of joy. All of a sudden I had a purpose in life, a reason to exist.
Life is still life: It's not easy, but now I have a guidebook.
One week later, I said my Shahadah (testimony of faith) at a public groundbreaking for a new mosque. As soon as I said it, two rainbows appeared in the sky! Everyone who witnessed it was very touched and all the Muslim sisters came up to me afterwards hugging me. I was crying from so much joy, as were most of the people there, happy to have me in the Ummah (community of Muslims).
The next day, eager to show the world I was a Muslim, I went to a local Middle Eastern store where they sold beautiful hijabs (headscarves) and dresses appropriate for the required Muslim dress. I bought many dresses and scarves, and from that day forward, I dressed properly. Ahhhhh … free at last! I had broken the chains of fashion and physical enslavement enforced by a superficial society. Honestly, I felt as if a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders. I no longer felt the pressure to dress and look better than everyone else. I finally respected myself and no longer based my self-worth on the reactions and attention of others. While many looked at me strangely — some with pity, some with anger, and some with curiosity — I really did get so much respect like never before.
Al-hamdu lillah (all praise be to Allah), the wonderful man who introduced me to Islam married me exactly one month after I became Muslim. Since then we have continued our work together against injustice throughout the world. We have traveled throughout the Middle East and moved from America to Egypt to be with my husband's mother and to live in an "Islamic" environment. Al-hamdu lillah, I am blessed with a beautiful family, in addition to the larger family — the Ummah — I gained when I became a Muslim.
Life is still life: It's not easy, but now I have a guidebook, a structure, a foundation. My heart is complete. The sadness and loneliness are gone. I now feel I belong. I am somebody. And I am home, at least for now, in this millisecond we call dunya (worldly life), until I am in my final, eternal home, in the akhira (afterlife), in sha' Allah (if Allah wills), near to my beloved, the Creator and Lord of the Worlds, Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He.

Frungy - 2011-05-31 01:31

@JusticeMan - "MnrFotograf, EARLIER QURAAN'S????????
MY FRIEND THERE IS ONLY ONE QURAAN WHICH IS UNCHANGED SINCE THE PROPHET(PEACE BE UPON HIM) WHICH IS 1432 YEARS AGO. I CHALLENGE YOU TO BRING PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR COMMENT. MILLIONS OF P[EOPLE HAVE BY HEARTED THE QURAAN OVER THE 1432 YEARS FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, TRIBES, RACES ETC SO THAT NO GROUP CAN CHANGE IT WITHOUT MANY OF THEM NOTICING."
You sir are a flaming idiot. In 1972 in Yemen's San'a Mosque excavation they found thousands of pages of the Quran dating back to about 700AD. There are a lot of differences between this version and the current version. Of course the authorities in Yemen have tried to interfere with scientific examination in order to preserve the myth that the Quran is always the same.
Frankly, as a religious man, I find this deeply offensive. If it is the will of God for there to be variations and for them to be found then it is his will that we read them, and anyone who attempts to conceal them is a HERETIC and should suffer the fate of all heretics, to be cast out of the faithful. To defy the will of God is unthinkable, to mislead and deceive the faithful should be punished.

Simpiwe Cele - 2011-05-31 04:30

Non Muslim women are required to wear Islamic dress in places like Iran and Saudi.
I agree with some of the sentiments , the wearing of the veil in Europe promotes separatists and a lack of integration into western society

Virginia - 2011-05-31 10:37

Yaseen We all agree with you, but surely if they do not want to stay in their own country because of the oppression of women, why would they want to still wear the burke in their new country, which has other religious principals. When the west visits the middle east, we have to obey the laws in that country, why cant the Muslim do the same in the western world, keep your head covered but show your face so that everyone can see that they are dealing with woman. I really do understand their predicament but we must also be realistic about what is happening in the world to day, with the Muslim militants, i dont think very easy for these countries to make these decissions.

common-cents - 2011-05-25 22:24

If you wish to live in a society with values and culture that are diametrically opposed to your religion and culture there are only 2 choices, fit in or leave.
The covering of the face is NOT an islamic requirement, it is a cultural belief / custom from saudi denominations of islam. Dress with modestly and cover your head and neck if you wish but in a western world we expect to be able to see the person we are talking to.
Work on this rule, where ever it is required for a helmet to be removed, this is where the burqa should be removed. Airports, schools, banks etc. If someone wants to walk down the road in full covering thats no issue in my mind but when you interact with others its rude not to abide by local culture and custom.

Zanu - 2011-05-27 09:45

100% right
BTW
There is no place in the world where racism... is as widespread and institutionalized as in the Arab world; against Christians, Jews, Gays, women and other smaller minorities. See a church in Saudi… don’t think so!
For this reason you will find almost non of the above living in the Arab world today… Christians are fleeing in their masses From Cairo and Beirut
and Gays are hung in Teheran.
If you don’t like EU policy then go back to that world you came from.

jovie - 2011-05-27 14:47

@freethinker
your views are based on hearsay and what you have heard on cnn and bbc... try to think before you swallow the crap they feed you.
eg: a person who steals gets his hand cut off only if the item was not secured and if it is of a certain value. no body has ever had their hands chopped off for stealing bread and yet thats what the media portrays.
speak to muslims and find out. What are you afraid off?

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 15:00

@ jovie, ive wasted enough time speaking to muslims, they get rude and extremely defensive when u point out something they cant explain.
y dont u read the sirat by ibn ishaq, I dare u, what are u afraid of?
and these stories are not fabricated by the media, its actually in the quran if u need references, i'll be more than glad to provide.

nanima - 2011-05-27 15:21

@free thinker we were not the rude people insulting someones religion and prophet.. if your mother was insulted would you just allow it or will you also become defensive..

Aadil - 2011-05-27 15:42

Can you proof that it is just arab culture and not part of islam ?

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 16:31

@ aadil, as u can clearly see that in saudi arabia women get gang raped even when fully covered up, so the niqab serves its purpose rite?

Aadil - 2011-05-27 16:36

See again misunderstanding. She may divorce but has to return the dowry.
She actually has to marry another man so as to not riducule the institution of marriage. Otherwise people would marry and divorce multiple times

Gonny@24.com - 2011-05-29 12:41

So divorce is bad - but sleeping with multiple women and taking them as wives is fine? Why cant a women take many husbands? This prove your religion views women as inferior!

mrincognito - 2011-05-29 18:52

Gonny - are you going to try and brand Islam and not mention that Hinduism (strictly speaking) forces widows to fall into the flames of there deceased husbands during creamtion? Naughty naughty, throwing stones in the glass house....

Gonny@24.com - 2011-05-29 18:57

@mrincognito - if thats true then they are just as bad! But personally I never seen or heard of it. Im not trying to brand any religion - its facts.

Gonny@24.com - 2011-05-29 19:10

And most importantly i dont see hindus demanding the right in western countries to throw the bodies into the flames of their deceased husbands (if what u r saying is indeed true) - please provide the proof in the hindu scripture that says this - i can quote all the hatred of nonmuslims directly from the koran. most of the indian ppl i know are very decent peaceful ppl unlike the muslims i know and read about in the world.
while u at it...Would you like to say something about the jews also? buddhists? Im sure the readers would love to hear...

whereu - 2011-05-30 12:39

Nanima,
If someone insulted my mother that would be his or her problem; not mine. It would only be my problem if I chose to react (especially with violence). I would have thought that a God who created the universe is big enough to deal with critics without the need for his followers to take to the streets with violence on their minds.
Is God supposed to love everyone, irrespective of their beliefs and are we not told to love our neighbour where the neighbour can be anyone, including our enemy? Or am I getting religions confused?

Matt - 2011-05-30 14:31

@ free-thinker - with the exception of 2 chaps, every Muslim I've questioned or debated answer the same way: "read the Koran"
@ Gonny - divorce bad in Islam? All the man has to do is say "talaq talaq talaq" and he's legally divorced. One chap even had his marriage annulled because he DREAMT the words and didn't actually want a divorce...
From my side, despite the fact I loathe Islam, I'm a Christian and I love my Muslim brothers and sisters regardless. Let's all show each other love and respect :-)

hemant230778 - 2011-05-31 15:56

@mrincognito - Could you please, please please show me where you got your information on Hinduism from, Some Bollywood movie, or some story on the news about some misguided community who forced this woman to commit that act, perhaps you also believe that girl babies are to be drowned, or that brides are burnt if they can't pay the dowry. All of the above are man made customs and have no place in Hinduism. STRICTLY SPEAKING as you put it, Hindu Women are not present at the cremation where the final rites are performed.

Justme - 2011-05-25 22:27

Last time i checked, Belgium is not a Islamic Country..! as common-sent says, when in Rome....!!

nanima - 2011-05-27 09:45

but it is a modern western country that promotes freedom so why is the woman who want's where her burqa's freedom and human right being taken away.

jowza - 2011-05-27 10:56

so the next time you read comments on how bad africa is,tell them when in africa...!!

jovie - 2011-05-27 13:59

Last time i checked... SA was not a christian chritian country or a muslim country but people are allowed to choose whichever religion they wish to follow...

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 15:01

@nanima, uhm i only see question marks there, i dont think copying and pasting arabic phrases works on news24.

Aadil - 2011-05-27 15:44

@ free thinker.
There would be a reduction in rape because of the increase in modesty and moral values

lotus.lindi - 2011-05-28 11:01

@nanima. A human right is not absolute. Your right to wear a burqa ends where it impinges on my right to see your face.

Crazy Ivan - 2011-05-28 12:08

@nanima Your missing the point...there are freedoms of choice. Perhaps if the same freedoms your demanding applied in Islamic countries for non-Islam's you would have an argument, but they dont. The fact of the matter is: Your a guest on foreign soil and therefore need to abide by their customs and freedoms(to a level) as a matter of courtesy, non-Islamic tourists have to cover up when visiting Arab Nations why is it so wrong or unfair to afford non-Islamic countries the same courtesy...besides they're not outlawing your religion of choice or the whole garment. Live and let live, show tolerance...or are you intolerant to everything but your own views?

nanima - 2011-05-28 17:25

@crazy Ivan. I was born south African, my parents are south African. Most of the Belgian and French sisters are born citizens not tourists visiting the place. When u visiting arabia, china, us and even europe u know what u getting yourself into. U have choice. But if u are a born and bred belgian muslim.One day they allowed, next day they being dragged to police station. We fought apartheid here in south Africa and know how discrimination feels like. Let us hope the skiers won't have a problem this winter cos apparently covering your face is a security risk.

mrincognito - 2011-05-29 18:50

So wait!! Are nuns going to also have their garb banned???? I mean its only fair. Since these zealots are banning the burkah, lets apply it equally to all religions. Will they ban the jewish hat too? Talk about inferiority of women...anyone read the Torah lately? You'd see some serious forms of tramping on women there. Wonder if free-thinker thought Mother Mary was also an object of subjugation - she wears a burkah-like headpiece.

whereu - 2011-05-30 12:47

Aadil,
You stated that:
There would be a reduction in rape because of the increase in modesty and moral values.
Sorry Aadil, but most men have more control over their hormones that I think you are implying.
In any cae why should women suffer because men can't behave themselves?

saywhat - 2011-05-30 13:11

mrincognito – there is a very BIG difference between a nuns veil and the Burqa. The burqa covers a person’s whole face and only leaves the eyes exposed, the veil only covers the hair.
why can’t people just accept the new law? It doesn’t matter what country you were born in or live in now, you have to abide by the LAWS of the land. Finished!

Lanfear - 2011-05-30 13:24

@ nanima - oh please, the skiers? They only wear their ski-masks on the slopes, not in banks, not at airports, not on the streets. Besides, covering your face with a niqab [which is the only thing banned]IS a security risk in western countries that are being targeted by fanatical Islamic terrorist groups. There have been incidents already where suspect men were found under the all-covering burqua and niqab.
Secondly nanima, covering your face with a niqab is NOT an Islamic law but a cultural custom from Saudi Arabia. Are you originally Saudi? Do you follow the practices and cultural traditions of the Saudi? If you drive for instance, then you don't and have no reason AT ALL to wear the niqab. Are you ashamed to show your face? Mohammed your prophet NEVER instructed women to cover their faces. In fact, as it is forbidden during Haj, he actually forbade it, saying that women must be modest but also must be KNOWN. If you want to be known, as the prophet said, then to cover your face with a veil is actually wrong.
@ mrincognito - ffs are you stupid? Nuns have NEVER covered their faces! Jeez, get with the programme and learn some history. At the end of the day, RELIGION is the scourge that oppress women! Even Buddhism did this. Old age paganism, hmm, now there's a religion that actually had respect for women...
And can nobody understand that is for security reasons and NOT for any imagined women's rights, or Islamophobia, etc.?

Jeff - 2011-05-25 22:50

Well if any other woman had to go to there country they are forced to cover up, so why should they be allowed to wear the burqa any were else except Saudi Arabia

nanima - 2011-05-27 09:59

because that society promotes freedom to do whatever you want, so why is my freedom taken away and yours kept..

Digit - 2011-05-27 22:55

@ Nanima .... Well you have the freedom to remove the full face cover ... the rest can stay on to protect your modesty. You can harp on your freedoms argument as much as you like, but you seem to submit yourself to an inequitable treatment voluntarily ... and this then negates your right to said freedom.

nanima - 2011-05-28 08:01

According to human rights -
Freedom of religion and belief is a fundamental human right protected by a number of international treaties and declarations, including article 18(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). This right encompasses freedom of thought on all matters and the freedom to manifest religion and belief individually or with others, in public or in private.

Crazy Ivan - 2011-05-28 12:18

@nanima Yes, Freedom of Religion is a human right, but that right ends where others rights are infringed...the full face cover infringes the rights of the rest of that countries non-Islamic population; everyones rights are therefore limited in a small way by the Law of General Application, where a compromise is reached...Muslim women get to keep your right to covering most of your body as you so choose, the non-Islamic population of the country looses this(their) right demand BUT to equal the scales, Muslim women loose the right to the face covering and the non-Islamic population of the country gains their right demand. Fairs fair! Perhaps if the same complete freedoms your demanding applied in Islamic countries for non-Islam's you would have an argument, but they dont. The fact of the matter is: Your a guest on foreign soil and therefore need to abide by their customs and freedoms(to a level) as a matter of courtesy, non-Islamic tourists have to cover up when visiting Arab Nations why is it so wrong or unfair to afford non-Islamic countries the same courtesy...besides they're not outlawing your religion of choice or the whole garment. Live and let live, show tolerance...or are you intolerant to everything but your own views and beliefs?

nanima - 2011-05-28 17:25

@crazy Ivan. I was born south African, my parents are south African. Most of the Belgian and French sisters are born citizens not tourists visiting the place. When u visiting arabia, china, us and even europe u know what u getting yourself into. U have choice. But if u are a born and bred belgian muslim.One day they allowed, next day they being dragged to police station. We fought apartheid here in south Africa and know how discrimination feels like. Let us hope the skiers won't have a problem this winter cos apparently covering your face is a security risk.

Crazy Ivan - 2011-05-28 23:50

@nanima Your only showing your intolerance of anything not your own and inability to compromise.

Barnz - 2011-05-29 12:30

@namina I take it you have never lived in a country which practises Shariah law have you? I have...you espouse the values of freedom of expression and freedom to choose...these are NOT Islamic beliefs or values, these were introduced by western cultures. Before you criticize, remember where it is you live, remember the liberties you are afforded regardless of your sex, race or religion. Now read the article below and thank your lucky stars...
http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/driving-activist-manal-al-shareef-kept-in-jail-2011-05-28-1.398251

Gonny@24.com - 2011-05-29 12:45

Nanima - if u want freedom to wear your burqa go to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan - there you wont be allowed to drive, female children are NOT allowed to go to school (well Afghanistan pre-2001 US invasion) - they followed the koran strictly there.
Show me a muslim country WITHOUT OIL and run by Sharia that is progressive....they are backward and keep their women and people dumb - they want to be stuck in the year 620AD the year of their "prophet"!
All they know is "oh ye who believe SLAY the disbelievers wherever u find them!"

mrincognito - 2011-05-29 18:59

Ok, so Crazy Ivan, as a guest in South Africa, why dont you get rid of your pants and shirt and don traditional San attire. Your reasoning is silly. Freedom to practice religion is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Where pray tell is the Right to See your Face in the same text? Some rights have greater importance than others, and cerrtainly the moreso when compared to preferences. A less restrictive means to achieve the purpose (of seeing a person's face - provided there is LEGAL justification) is to ask them to show you. Lets dispense with the backward logic and try to promote justice and equity.

Gonny@24.com - 2011-05-29 19:29

@mrincognito when muslim stop trying to kill westerners and using the burqa to hide their bombs then maybe it would not need to be banned!
"Freedom to practice religion is enshrined in the Bill of Rights." - yeah but in Saudi Arabia - non muslims are NOT ALLOWED to openly worship or build churches/temples etc...non muslims are NOT ALLOWED into the cities of mecca and medina - are we dogs that we cannot openly worship in muslim countries?
But muslims leave the misery and backwardness of muslim countries and come to west and DEMAND human rights but treat non muslims worst than dogs in muslim countries

mrincognito - 2011-05-29 19:43

Ok Gonny, lets try this one more time. Saudi Government does not equal to Shariah and/or Islam. If you so ffervently wish to build a Church/Synagogue/Temple in Saudi, then go and fight them there. The point is that ISLAM teaches relisious tolerence. Try reading a book on thye life history of the Prophet (SAW). In it you will find the best example of religious tolerence. We are taught to follow the Prophet's (SAW) teaching, called "the Sunnah". If the Saudi Government has a law contrary to the teachings of Islam, then dont blame Islam for it.

Paco7 - 2011-05-30 13:58

your reasoning is just as lame as your name,crawl back under your rock

Crazy Ivan - 2011-05-30 15:48

@mrincognito Flawed argument, not even going to try to explain the differences too you...sigh! Ignorance is bliss I guess...

Mark - 2011-05-31 08:31

mrincognito, you talk of religous tolerance from Muslims? Are you crazy, Muslims are the least tolerant of other religions. All over the world, they want to kill for the sake of Islam.

timur.safak - 2011-05-26 06:51

i agree with Belgium and it should happen everywhere the fanatic Muslims treat woman like they come from a different planet its time to change this and give them a equal rights , i believe that woman should be more educated in the Muslim countries not hide them like they r , because if u think about it if the mother of a child is educated she can offer more to her child and in return u would have more educated nation this would benefit the society more. i mean how much time does the father spend with the children compare to his or her mother EXACTLY
and don't tell its against the principals of Islam its not it is against some peoples believes not Islam.
they don't allow westerners to wear openly in some Arab countries do they
no can they change their laws to fit the westerners to wear openly in mecca no exactly so u must respect Belgium and ect

nanima - 2011-05-27 10:04

you obviously don't understand the role of a woman in Islam.. the most important person in life is a mother.. you also do not understand what value woman are given in Islam.. please get more educated about woman in Islam before trying to save us. we don't need saving. Allah i.e God is enough for us..

Digit - 2011-05-27 23:07

@ Nanima, you are absolutely right. But your view is perverted by the fact that this view is only applicable in a nation that has Islam as its basis.
When living in a nation where Islam are by far the minority, it is up to the Islamic people to adapt to the laws of the nation they are living in whilst maintaining their faith which they can freely practice.
However, if the law of the land says no veils, then you are obliged to obey. If you choose not to obey this, you isolate yourself. You then cannot complain that the nation does nothing to integrate you into its society. It is not up to that nation to adapt to you !! And for that matter, it would be illegal for you to create a parallel society to meet your religious beliefs. As I said before ... live in an Islamic nation if you do not like Western laws.

nanima - 2011-05-28 08:04

@dig i thought human rights applied to everyone - According to human rights -
Freedom of religion and belief is a fundamental human right protected by a number of international treaties and declarations, including article 18(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). This right encompasses freedom of thought on all matters and the freedom to manifest religion and belief individually or with others, in public or in private.

dollypeg - 2011-05-28 08:30

I agree... there are countries where Islam is the main religion and yet women don't cover their faces nor indeed do they wear a burqa. In fact there are muslim tribes where the MAN covers his face! So really to cover up is a variable not laid down as law in Islam. And If Westeners travel to muslim countries they have to do what that country demands. So why is it different when muslims live in countries that do not recognise the burqa niqab cover-up which is a cultural thing. Muslims demand the west to follow its laws even when they are in Western countries. What a cheek!

Marcell - 2011-05-28 08:41

nanima: fight for your rights in your arab country.
We want to look you in the eye to make sure you are who you are. If you don't like it go where it is! They call it freedom of leaving.

nanima - 2011-05-28 09:00

@marcelle with the veil you can still look at my eyes.. @dollypeg please compare apples with apples.. you can't compare the US with China just like you can't compare an Arab country with Europe.. Europe are champions of democracy and freedom to do what they want, why are muslim woman being discriminated against and their right of freedom taken away to choose how they want to dress.. when you are going to an Arab country you know what you getting yourself into. when I go to Europe you know you are free and liberated and all for woman's rights.. why is my right to live I want to live taken away..

Vive la Revolution - 2011-05-28 09:13

@Nanima: In which way is the banning of the burqa a violation of your human right? According to human rights, particularly with reference to the right of religion. By banning the burqa will it any way impede affected woman in Belgium from practising Islam? Will it prevent you from making Du'a five times a day; does the anti-burqa law now require you to consume food and beverage which is considered Haraam in your community. Unless, you can prove that the failure to wear a burqa impedes any of the core issues of Islam there is no way you can make the ridiculous assumption that woman who have been affected by this legislation have been the victims of human rights violation. All one needs to do is visit countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran to witness true humans rights violations under the guise of the Sharia law system.

Crazy Ivan - 2011-05-28 12:23

@nanima Yes, Freedom of Religion is a human right, but that right ends where others rights are infringed...the full face cover infringes the rights of the rest of that countries non-Islamic population; everyones rights are therefore limited in a small way by the Law of General Application, where a compromise is reached...Muslim women get to keep your right to covering most of your body as you so choose, the non-Islamic population of the country looses this(their) right demand BUT to equal the scales, Muslim women loose the right to the face covering and the non-Islamic population of the country gains their right demand. Fairs fair! Perhaps if the same complete freedoms your demanding applied in Islamic countries for non-Islam's you would have an argument, but they dont. The fact of the matter is: Your a guest on foreign soil and therefore need to abide by their customs and freedoms(to a level) as a matter of courtesy, non-Islamic tourists have to cover up when visiting Arab Nations why is it so wrong or unfair to afford non-Islamic countries the same courtesy...besides they're not outlawing your religion of choice or the whole garment. Live and let live, show tolerance...or are you intolerant to everything but your own views and beliefs?

nanima - 2011-05-28 17:25

@crazy Ivan. I was born south African, my parents are south African. Most of the Belgian and French sisters are born citizens not tourists visiting the place. When u visiting arabia, china, us and even europe u know what u getting yourself into. U have choice. But if u are a born and bred belgian muslim.One day they allowed, next day they being dragged to police station. We fought apartheid here in south Africa and know how discrimination feels like. Let us hope the skiers won't have a problem this winter cos apparently covering your face is a security risk.

Crazy Ivan - 2011-05-29 00:04

@nanima I am truly sorry that you suffered so under apartheid, I really am. I wasn't part of it and I can only imagine how it must have been. That is a prime example of intolerance and inability to find common ground. This is not the case in the EU but where one has rights those shouldnt infringe on the rights of others. If both parties rights are infringed upon, then a compromise must be made. I can see that you hold this issue close to yourself, but is it not worth giving a little to be given alot. If giving up the burqua gains peace and ends suspicion etc, is it not a small price to pay? Being tolerant to non-Islamic's social culture, compromising on a small part of a garment only to receive the same tolerance and compromise(for the remainder of the garment etc) in return and visa versa...isnt this more noble, honorable and equal?

JusticeMan - 2011-05-29 13:24

Well said nanima!!

JusticeMan - 2011-05-29 13:31

Marcel, you can similarly go somewhere (I do not know where becase GOD has created the entire Universe)a place where you can practice the immorality that is pravalent in society today. How dare we go against God's commands & practice immorality on his earth???

JusticeMan - 2011-05-29 13:37

Digit Muslims have been in europe for centuries, why ban the niqab Now Only, make you think hard Ha ?? They fear the Rapid spreading of Islam amongst there indigenous puople & want to quell this spread. Religion must prevail in an ever increasing Godless society.

Anne - 2011-05-29 18:02

Justice Man, what if I don't want to subscribe to your religion? Are you going to force it down my throat?

mrincognito - 2011-05-29 19:07

No, Anne. Islam teaches tolerance of other religions. It is a simple thing to pick up a book on Islam and learn the religion. Its for the simple-minded to post silly questions like yours.

JusticeMan - 2011-05-29 19:08

No Anne, many jews/christians lived side by side in Palestine for example over centuries under muslim rule, they were not forced to convert/revert to Islam. Islam is a religion of peace, only if you or your country, family, property are threatened can you defend yourself.
America invades countries without reason, on pretext of weapons of mass distruction, where non was found & hundreds of thousands of lives were lost of both innocent civillians & soldiers.
Anne please go read sarah Bokkers journey to ISlam & give me feedback!

Anne - 2011-05-29 21:47

Thanks, JusticeMan. You're at least more tolerant and less insulting than mrincognito. You said,'They fear the rapid spreading of Islam ... Religion must prevail in an ever increasing Godless society.' So you are inclusive of other religions, then, and it is not just about Islam? I think these are fair questions, because no matter how you cut it, people have been scared away from Islam by fanatics who hijacked it for their own evil purposes.

Paco7 - 2011-05-30 14:06

it's ignorant apes like u that give non-muslims a bad name,think for one moment before u rant and rave about how badly women are treated, the hijab,burka and cloak protect the muslim women from sex starved perverts like youself

Crazy Ivan - 2011-05-30 15:56

@mrincognito You say tolerant. Well as my previous post above pointed out, why not be tolerant to other peoples wishes too. The Belgium's are offering a compromise but your refusing to 'give' anything but want everything. So much for tolerance...the key characteristic of tolerance is small compromises without compromising your core beliefs, standing etc. The fact that your not prepared to compromise in any way shows your true colours: That your intolerant to everything not your own period. If you disagree, prove me wrong...compromise/give a little.

mnbain - 2011-05-26 10:18

I think this infringes on a persons right to wear whatever they choose.

KayZee - 2011-05-26 11:15

Most women who wear the burqa don't have any choice in the matter. Those women who say they have "chosen" to wear it, are the victims of lifelong indoctrination by males who teach them that the female body is something to be ashamed of. Whichever way you look at it, these women are being oppressed and the burqa is the visual manifestation of this oppression.

nanima - 2011-05-27 10:05

@kayzee I am a muslim woman and I choose to wear hijaab.. have you ever spoken to a muslim woman and asked her why she dresses the way she does or is this your own personal opinion

nanima - 2011-05-27 13:46

@free thinker you should read the Arabic quran, there is no such thing as an English quran and maybe then you will have a better understanding of what Allah is saying not one man's translation of it..

jovie - 2011-05-27 14:01

The english translation is just that... a translation.... which can be twisted to suit your point. read the arabic one and then youl understand the true meaning of that verse!

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:13

@freethinker half the things you have stated i have never seen.. for someone calling themselves free thinker , you seem very narrow minded about islam

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 14:19

@nanima FYI i have read the Arabic Quran, and ask urself this, y are muslims prevented from reading the yusuf ali translation and the sirat by ibn ishaq? they were not haters of islam, they just wrote the truth. If it was christians or jews who translated it then it wud be understandable, but these are translations by other muslims.

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:30

@freethinker no translation will ever do justice to the majesty and divine words of Allah..

Aadil - 2011-05-27 16:06

@ free thinker
You are misquoting “men have a degree (of responsibility) over them” 2:228
4:11-12 You forgot to mention that along with this inheritence division it is the responsibility of the males to take care of the women.
66:10 refers to the wives of Noah and Lot who refused to obey the command of God
You are just misquoting and not giving and details into the arguement. You can find fault with anything in this manner

Vive la Revolution - 2011-05-28 09:16

@mnbain: Exactly. if there is any right violated here; it is the right which allows us to wear like we want. It is no different to legislature which is enforced in many african countries where one can be arrested for wearing any form of military attire, i.e. camo pants, caps and t-shirts, if you not a member of the country's armed forces

USAMAH - 2011-05-26 10:44

I wonder if it ever occurred to lawmakers that the burka's purpose was actually to protect women who feel uncomfortable beeing ogled by every man that feels he has the right to stare at every woman who walks past him.

CdnMoose - 2011-05-26 10:57

When Muslim men wear face burqas so as not to be ogled by women passing them by, then the West may understand this sense of modesty. THe prophet Mohammed ( PBUH), relates nowhere in the Koran the need for women to cover up their entire bodies and faces. It is only Wahabi fundamentalists who have perverted Islam to protect a male dominence in all matters ( just look at the Taliban for verification of this). Time to come into the 21st century and give women their rightful place is society....that of equals to men.

nanima - 2011-05-27 10:10

Yes the prophet(SAW) did not tell woman to cover up God did i.e Allah..

nanima - 2011-05-27 10:19

Surah an-Nur ayah 31

taahirah.sayed - 2011-05-27 10:35

Saronicus,
1. Muslim women do not measure ourselves by man's lowly standards. GOD has instructed us to draw our veils over our chests and dress modestly in order to protect our dignity from men who are incapable controlling their desires.
2.Women are intelligent and emotional beings. Our LORD expects more from us because we are capable. The man's role is merely the breadwinner.
3.On the contrary, men are generally more easily corruptible, hence our sacrifice, for your deficiency in this regard.
4.Our LORD celebrates our femininity, and part of that is to be emotional. Women (Muslim & non Muslim) are generally more wicked and vicious when it comes to gossiping, hence the precautionary measure of 4witnesses.
5.Who cooked for you? Who cleaned your clothes and picked up after you - oh yes, that's right, if it hadn't been your mother, then it was a non Muslim domestic who was someone else's mother right? Shariah clearly states that the man is obligated to arranging help for his queen in his home. It is, however more laudible for her to do these duties herself - if she chooses to.
6.You are clearly referring to cultural rites, as within the Black, European and Eastern world regarding beatings which are permissible.
7. As a couple, we are garments to each other. If the Muslim woman does not wish to sleep with her husband,. We are not forced to do anything for a man, but we do for the pleasure of our LORD.
8.You are right! We are ninjas. Your curiosity is obviously killing you!

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 11:40

In Egypt, the Ministry of Health has prohibited the wearing of the niqab (2) by nurses in hospitals. In Iraq, the niqab was banned by a fatwa. In Kuwait, women wearing the niqab have been banned from driving for security reasons. In Saudi Arabia, people in charge of public security have started a battle against the niqab after discovering that many Islamic terrorists have used it to hide in and commit terror attacks. In Syria, students and teachers are not allowed to wear the full Islamic veil. by Willy Fautré: Director of Human Rights Without Frontiers (Brussels) and Member of the International Consortium on Law and Religion Studies (ICLRS)

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:31

@freethinker we have a problem with all countries that do not allow muslims to practise Islam the way they choose to practise

Aadil - 2011-05-27 16:45

@ CdnMoose
It is just not Wahabi's that promote the Niqab but all four major schools of thought. Surah Nur ayah 31 promotes covering the face. and I don't think the Taliban are related to the Wahabi's

Marcell - 2011-05-28 08:51

nanima: please don't confuse God with allah.
"we have a problem with all countries that do not allow muslims to practise Islam the way they choose to practise"
Why do you want your way but you as a muslim don't allow Christians to practice their religion the way they choose to?
Should you not treat others the same way you want to be treated or is that a Christian thing?

Crazy Ivan - 2011-05-28 12:35

@nanima Yes, Freedom of Religion is a human right, but that right ends where others rights are infringed...the full face cover infringes the rights of the rest of that countries non-Islamic population; everyones rights are therefore limited in a small way by the Law of General Application, where a compromise is reached...Muslim women get to keep your right to covering most of your body as you so choose, the non-Islamic population of the country looses this(their) right demand BUT to equal the scales, Muslim women loose the right to the face covering and the non-Islamic population of the country gains their right demand. Fairs fair! Perhaps if the same complete freedoms your demanding applied in Islamic countries for non-Islam's you would have an argument, but they dont. The fact of the matter is: Your a guest on foreign soil and therefore need to abide by their customs and freedoms(to a level) as a matter of courtesy, non-Islamic tourists have to cover up when visiting Arab Nations why is it so wrong or unfair to afford non-Islamic countries the same courtesy...besides they're not outlawing your religion of choice or the whole garment. Live and let live, show tolerance...or are you intolerant to everything but your own views and beliefs?
@Marcell Great point!

nanima - 2011-05-28 17:26

@crazy Ivan. I was born south African, my parents are south African. Most of the Belgian and French sisters are born citizens not tourists visiting the place. When u visiting arabia, china, us and even europe u know what u getting yourself into. U have choice. But if u are a born and bred belgian muslim.One day they allowed, next day they being dragged to police station. We fought apartheid here in south Africa and know how discrimination feels like. Let us hope the skiers won't have a problem this winter cos apparently covering your face is a security risk.

Gemini - 2011-05-26 10:59

You can still be modest while showing your face. Covering your face is not required in Islam. Although I do find it funny that an entire law needs to be passed for a few hundred women who do in fact cover their faces in that country.
To Preshen Govender - i'm sure there'll be many women suicide bombers after they take a look at your ugly mug - your comment is sooo lame (yawn).
@ Cornix - the very same could possibly said to you as well - what are you doing in Africa (i am assuming you're white).
@WOW - this has nothing to do with domination - most of the women who do cover their faces do it beacuse they want to. Strange but true.
@Timur Safak - not sure what you're really saying but i do agree women needs more rights in Muslim Countries - the same rights accorded to them by Islam - equality in all respects - thats what Islam teaches.
@Usamah - you dont need to cover your face just dress modestly and no one will ogle you.

nanima - 2011-05-27 10:14

Allah ordered us to cover up i.e. God - Surah an-Nur ayah 31

Aadil - 2011-05-27 16:50

@ Gemini
Good points but I believe that Niqab is part of Islam. Many Fuqaha approve of it and it is only a few modern scholars who do not plus with no solid proofs

USAMAH - 2011-05-28 13:10

Beauty lies in the face. It is the major source of physical attraction. A man first looks at a woman's face, in case he wants to take things further. a woman's decision to remain unveiled leaves her vulnerable to hundreds of men's lustful gazes. Is this what she is worth? I feel men are opposed to the veil because it hinders them from 'checking out', flirting or attempting to grope every woman that walks past them. If the veil hinders conversation, then realise that was it's purpose - to allow women the complete choice of communicating ONLY with whichever man THEY choose to communicate with.

nanima - 2011-05-27 09:29

I am a muslim woman. I write this letter from peace and to inform your readers why Islam is so beautiful and practical. Muslim woman do not wear hijaab(headscarf and modest clothing) for men but for themselves. It is their choice to wear hijaab to follow what God has instructed them to do, not their husbands, fathers or anyone else but God. My favourite story about modest dress was: One day a school girl asked a religious leader . Why are muslim women oppressed and wear a head scarf and dress like that and why do men have beards and wear robes? His answer was: “the same reason the mother of Jesus, Mary wears the head scarf in all your portraits and the same reason Jesus has a beard, for the love of God.” Why has God instructed women to dress modestly? At the time when Islam started women were treated the worst buried alive, etc. Islam came and liberated women. Many examples to numerous to mention here. A woman wears hijaab the same reason you lock away all your valuables in a safe. If you had the most precious stone in the world wouldn’t you want to hide it from everyone and wrap it up safely. Hijaab is a women’s security blanket. With her modest dress she feels safe to walk the streets without even being noticed and maybe even being respected for it. In these times where women are being sexually abused left, right and centre the hijaab is one of the best safety mechanisms she has, almost a shield of protection. With the hijaab all women are the same equal to each other and in retrospect equal to man. Fat, thin, tall, short. Woman are talking to each other, the person, not getting distracted by their assets or liabilities. The same goes with man communicating with woman. With the hijaab you are talking to HER not her looks. God is the most wise and knows best. I admire the father who is inculcating such beliefs in his children at such a young age. Religious freedom is a democratic right and one of the reasons I love South Africa and wouldn’t choose to live in France wear the headscarf is banned.

nanima - 2011-05-27 13:50

@free thinker Khadija(RA) was Muhammad's #1 supporter and the first woman to accept Islam. She gave all her wealth for Muhammad's cause.. so we can see where her loyalty was. Muhammad did not limit anything. God limited it to 4 because it was countless..

nanima - 2011-05-27 15:27

@freethinker yet again confusing that the Quraan is from Allah and that is what Allah said and not Muhammad(PBUH) -

Aadil - 2011-05-27 17:07

@ free thinker
Are you an atheist ?

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 17:18

@aadil, no im not, i do believe theres a higher being but i dont believe in religion, If the quran was indeed from God, there would be absolutely no flaws in it and I believe that we are all equal in God's eyes and that people like mother theresa, lady Di, florence nightingale and gandhi dont deserve hell just becos they werent muslims and ppl like saddam husein go to jannat just becos he was a muslim.

nanima - 2011-05-27 18:33

@Free thinker Imaan is one's heart. at the end of the day Allah is the master of the day of judgement and we are not here to judge who is muslim and who is not we leave that to Allah to judge. We as mere mortals can't say who is going to hell and who is going to heaven. Leave that for Allah to decide. Imaan is in one's heart and we can't see what is in a persons heart..

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 18:36

@nanima again u not paying attention, u know very well that the quran says that non-believers will never enter jannat, im not talking about ur judgement or mine, this is what Allah clearly states in the quran.

nanima - 2011-05-27 19:35

@free thinker leave master of the day of Judgement to the Master of the day of judgement..

taahirah.sayed - 2011-05-28 08:07

@free-thinker - We are taught that ALLAH SWT is Most Merciful of all who show mercy. We cannot say that the good people you mentioned died as non-believers. We do not know if they were given the ability to proclaim their faith (kalimah) before they died.
I am sincerely sorry that you are so bitter towards Islam. ALLAH SWT make it easy for you inshaALLAH.

free-thinker - 2011-05-28 08:19

i highly doubt any of the people i mentioned became muslims b4 they died.

nanima - 2011-05-28 09:04

please leave master of the day of Judgement to the master of the day of judgement . there are many stories we have heard the person thought they were pious and because of one sin they went to hell and we also heard of the person that committed the worse sins because one good deed like giving water to thirsty animal went to highest part of heaven.. as i said let us not pass judgements on who is going to heaven and who is going to hell..

free-thinker - 2011-05-28 10:32

im curious as to who took this trip to heaven and hell to tell these stories? the only people that go to heaven are muslims as clearly stated by the quran, the muslims who go to hell, will only go there for a lil while then get sent to heaven even if they had as little faith as the size of a mustard seed. but everybody else will roast in hell forever.

grilledsole - 2011-05-28 16:34

well said and point taken. to debate religious issues with non-religious beings is futile though. leave the muslims to practice on their religion as they please and we can all do the way we please

lotus.lindi - 2011-05-28 18:45

Nanima, Mary wore a head covering because in her culture and day only prostitutes went around with heads uncovered. And beards were generally worn by jewish men because, well, beards were worn by jewish men. For the same reason, women all wore hats to church 100 years ago, and men all took their hats off inside. It's a cultural thing. It can change. The burqa is a 7th century relic of arabian culture. Nothing wrong with that. But the religion itself requires only modesty in general, NOT the burqa in particular, as millions of non-burqa'd muslim women worldwide demonstrate. Christianity also requires modesty, but with time christian cultures have change in their expresion of certain constant principles. Now I'm not slamming arab culture here, I just think you need to accept that Belguim isn't 7th century Arabia. Just as I expect my friends who slaughter cows at their parties not to hold their parties next door to me for health reasons, even though they have every right to slaughter cows in other places.
The hijaab is a curse to a 21st century security official who'd like to know who is on his property.
And sweet sentiments re wrapping women up because they're precious, and sothat they are judged only on merits unrelated to appearance, but how about the precious muslim hubbies. Why don't they get wrapped?
Plus, abusive behaviour is born in the heart of the abuser, not the dress of the abused, as any abused, burqa'd muslim woman will tell you. And yes, they exist.

nixliguori - 2011-05-29 09:26

@nanima
I have gone through your comments and I understand where you are coming from but and its a very big but... as you have mentioned you were born in South Africa, your parents were born in South Africa.. have you spent a day in your life in the Middle East, in an actually Muslim country? Have you actually lived in a country that limits its women to the extend that they are not even allowed to drive. The banning of the Hijab for them is a small victory that some day they, also, will be allowed to choose. I live in the Middle East at the moment and even though some areas like Dubai are starting to allow the western influence in to their daily lives there are still women who are continuously abused, berated and belittled in the name of religious values.

Zanu - 2011-05-27 10:56

im glad that last comment was deleted by news24... however, I must stress... there are many who think like him... and im not trying to sound extreme... but the way their population growth is expanding in the EU... soon there will be lots of friction... and the future… well doesn’t seem too bright.

nanima - 2011-05-27 11:42

we are not all like that. Most muslims I know are beautiful, fun loving, patient and tolerant. please do not paint the whole religion by one persons comment

Zanu - 2011-05-27 12:45

nanima
With all due respect (and there is respect) I have lived in the Middle east for 8.5 years... and all I have to say is that Islam IS the religion of peace, and Muslims are awesome people and some even very good friends of mine as well. HOWEVER, some are extreme and fundamentalist... one opinion poll put that figure to 10% of the Muslims population... now 10% might sound small. And its a real shame if those 10% give a bad name to the vast majority, however 10% of 1.2billion is 120million fundamentalists - and that is crazy... so yes most Muslims are great and peaceful, but the rest of the world needs to be alert, cause there are way too many that seek death and destruction - many of whom already live in the European Union.
Its high time Muslims take back their religion that has been hijacked by fundamentalists. Cause as long as the “crazy” ones call the shots… the laws against Muslims will become even crazier in the west.

nanima - 2011-05-27 13:56

imagine if I had to have a similar poll on my page to say e.g. All woman are snobs and only 5 people answered yes and 5 people answered no. that is 50% think woman are snobs and the other 50% don't. a poll could have been an opinion of maybe 5 people in a percentage.. imagine if that was applicable to world war 1 or world war 2 and we said are all the religion hitler believed in are they all nazi's.. it does not make sense.. also to point out in Islam oppression is not tolerated. As Nelson Mandela was also branded a terrorist .. one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.. as I said most of us want peace in the world.. and it is very unfair to paint the billions as you said by a few millions. like saying because there is such high crime in South Africa we all are criminals..

nanima - 2011-05-27 15:28

if only news24 was fair and deleted other comments that are just as bad as that one..

WhoSaidWhat - 2011-05-30 13:08

@ Nanima.... Shame I feel for you. You are trying to justify something under the basis of freedom of religion and expression which I understand but unfortunately you need to look from the outside and not the inside. At the moment the world is dealing with constant security concerns and I think on this basis alone within the EU is grounds enough to stop woman from wearing the Niqab. It is sad but true that there are extremists out there that will use whatever means to cause damage and a perfect disguise is the niqab, so what better way to eliminate that concern by banning it. I think the argument of equality is not correct as in most cases it is the woman themselves that chooses to wear the Niqab, however this is not a religious instruction according to Islam but a cultural thing - so the people that choose to wear the Niqab should not be allowed to hide behind religion as the reason for wearing it. Find me any part of the Qaran that says that woman must wear the Niqab and keep there faces covered, because it is not there. Then there is also the fact that not all woman choose to wear it and are forced to wear it due to the insecurities of men in their family. Belgium has the right to protect its people and for security alone I think they should be allowed to ban it.....

maryamsmom - 2011-05-27 11:21

Justid D and Cornix - you guys are living in the dark ages. Muslims all over the world share a religion, but not nationalities or race. Islam has originated in Saudi Arabia but has spread to every corner of the earth. So those in Europe have their birthright in Europe and belong just there. I might be offended by women walking around half dressed, or bill boards depicting such woman, but I dont make such harsh statements like the ones you have. Live and let live, be tolerant and this world will be a far better place.

Mohammed - 2011-05-27 11:32

If I have two sweets, one wrapped and the other not, and throw both of them on a dirty surface. If I then pick it up n offer you one, which one will u take??? The wrapped one ofcoz.... Same concept as a women in niqaab. We as men have natural instincs n desires... If a woman has to walk pass us on the beach with a bikini, its human nature to have explicit thoughts, yet if a woman wearing the niqaab walks pass me, I would'nt b exposed to her beauty and therefore won't have any explicit thoughts, therfore saving such a person in niqaab from the possibility of rape.

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 11:38

Not to be mean - but that is a pathetic excuse for wanting woman to be covered from head to toe!
Just because people like you possibly would want to rape us woman because we wear a bikini we must not show any part of us?!
Exactly where is woman's freedom in islam?

Mohammed - 2011-05-27 11:49

I'm not saying we would want to rape you ppl....just that by covering up, its protecting one's body from male instincts. Pearls are precious, yet is found in a shell at the depths of the ocean. Gold is precious, yet is covered by rock. The same applies 2 all rich n precious materials. Therefore women who cover themselves are considered as precious. Women who are covered are not looked upon as sex objects, rather they are looked upon with respect....jus saying

jovie - 2011-05-27 14:18

Excellent Point!

Prophet - 2011-05-27 14:24

if i ahve a moth ball in each hand... what do i have in both hands?

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 14:30

Oh so just because I do not cover my face I am not respected?!

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:53

@MJ do you respect a nun that covers herself

Lauren - 2011-05-27 15:38

Are men therefore not able to control their urges? Is that what you are saying? I am sorry, but I know many men (the majority of men that I know), who do not feel the need to rape a woman merely because she is beautiful and because that beauty is evident. Rape is in any event not the product of desire for a beautiful woman. It is the product of hate against women, or the need to dominate and hurt. It's about violence against women. Your statement depicts men as a gender unable to control itself. I know that is not true. Also, if I walk past you and my pretty face is exposed, does that give you the right to rape me? Will it incite you to rape me? I hope not.

Aadil - 2011-05-27 17:11

@ Lauren
People who think they're pretty generally aren't

ELP - 2011-05-30 13:09

Mohammed: I am utterly disturbed by the lack of respect you demonstrate towards women. How DARE you justify rape in ANY way or form. ESPECIALLY in a nation plagued by the phenomenon. Men are solely responsible for controlling their own animalistic urges and a woman in a mini-skirt or in full cover should be accorded equal respect. And let me get something straight: in Islam- a father/husband/brother is responsible for protecting their daughter/wife/sister from OTHER fathers/husbands/brothers!? It sounds like a load of convoluted rubbish to me. If these women were brought up with equal liberties and entitlements they would not have to be covered up like precious stones because they would be treated as individuals and not property. Further, you seem to fail to comprehend that all you men are doing is protecting the women in your family from OTHER men, who are doing the same thing to 'their' women. MEN in Islam are the problem. Plain and simple. If it werent for men who thought the way that you do, women would not NEED to be protected. Take your sick, clandestine views elsewhere...there is NEVER a justification for rape or oppression!

saywhat - 2011-05-30 13:36

Mohammed @ Nanima please don’t even go there. just because some men can’t control their urges doesn’t mean that all women have to walk around with everything covered but their eyes. That is utter rubbish. If that was true then there would be no rape cases in Muslim states. Do a bit of research on why men rape before you open your big trap.
Muslims don’t know how to compromise. And that’s a FACT! If it is not done the Muslim way then it’s a problem. but you all preach that your religion is tolerant etc. what bull. If that was true then non Muslims would be able to do what they wanted in Muslim states.
Aadil - you're a chop!

Mark - 2011-05-31 09:14

Mohammed, women in SA are raped daily, not because they are showing off their bodies but because of the evil desires in man, rape is not necessarily driven by sexual desires but one of violence and abuse. Its got very little to do with womens attire. And by the way i know of many a Muslim women who dorn the burqua and they are nothing compared to a wrapped up sweet.

Nazeer - 2011-05-27 11:38

Ladies and Gentlemen
Please, I urge everyone to do through research before forming an opinion. If ANYONE reading this article and these comments feels that Muslim woman are oppressed in some way than please go the "ask nanima" facebook page where many Muslim woman frequent and ask the question "are muslim woman oppressed?". You would be surprised by the answer.
On another note did you guys know that according to islamic rights a woman could be earning millions and it is still the DUTY of her husband to support her FULLY. He has no right to one CENT of hers!

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 11:41

Nazeer - I think we all accept SOME muslim woman may want to wear it, but what about the ones that do not? Or are forced to?

nanima - 2011-05-27 13:44

@MJ there is no compulsion in religion.. unfortunately the only ones that are forced to do anything are the sisters in France and soon to follow Belguim and they are forced to remove their niqaab, burka and hijaab

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 14:29

I have provided proof it is compulsory by your faith.
Are you going to deny in the Quaran it states that all females must cover up?

Nazeer - 2011-05-27 11:51

@mj - I agree with you that some Muslim woman are indeed forced to wear a veil.BUT I assure you this is no command of Islam. It is those corrupt individuals that by their own lack of enlightenment(mis-understanding of islam) are perpetrating these acts. Did you the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) once said that the best of men in the world are the ones that treat their wives the best.

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 12:06

"Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for that?" He replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was said. "Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?" He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.' " Bukhari 7.62.125

nanima - 2011-05-27 13:58

@freethinker the attitude of gratitude is a universal concept..

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 14:51

@nanima LOL, u can try ur best to cover it up, this hadith clearly shows that its more important to be grateful to ur husband than to Allah.

nanima - 2011-05-27 15:29

@freethinker so are you saying we must be ungrateful to our husbands..

taahirah.sayed - 2011-05-27 15:53

Free-thinker, it is unfortunate that you read the Qur'aan with the same eyes as the 'fundamentalists'. It is true that knowledge without wisdom counts for naught. Being able to accumulate knowledge and not have a clue of how to implement it is such a waste!
The Quraan also says that ALLAH SWT lets those see whom HE Wills.
I hope that while you are quoting the Qur'aan so wonderfully that you at least have wudhu. Salaams & duaa

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 17:13

@taahira, no offence but ive heard all those things b4, its like u are all taught to give those very same responses. u have a brain, i strongly urge u to use it, even Einstein said that blind faith is very dangerous.

Aadil - 2011-05-27 17:16

@ Free thinker.
No it doesn't. It just shows the importance of being grateful to their husbands

taahirah.sayed - 2011-05-28 08:25

@free-thinker - Being innovative & rebellious does not necessary denote intelligence. To work smarter and not harder is a good thing. Sometimes we don't have to re-invent the wheel to know that something works well.
So if these are responses you've heard before, have you thought that perhaps they are the right ones?
ALLAH SWT only compares HIS love for HIS creation with one relationship - that of a mother for her child. I'd like to believe that mothers are extremely compassionate to their children, but they set boundaries for their kids for their own protection. If the kids don't obey, the mother would rather punish the child before they get hurt. With the same token, ALLAH SWT sets the boundaries clearly, in order for us to be decent human beings. Definitely HE knows HIS creation.
Any psychologist will tell you that children thrive when boundaries are set, regardless of how broad they are.
Having said that, ALLAH SWT also says that HE will be the Lord you expect HIM to be. So if you see him as a thunder-wielding Lord, then every mishap in your life will be viewed as a punishment. If you see HIM as THE Merciful Being, then you will realise all the gifts you have.
Take care

free-thinker - 2011-05-28 10:46

@taahirah Im glad u mentioned that. I am a mother, and i can honestly tell u i went through alot of pain to bring my daughter into this world, and she can get quite rebellious at times, she's alot like me but i love her nevertheless. I cannot imagine anything that she could possibly do that would make me so angry at her that i would come close to killing her. now lets look at what the quran says: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), “Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!” 22:19-22. Now is that a merciful God, shouldn't God's love for his creation be more powerful than mine since i'm only human and God is perfect. Can God really be so evil?

Nasreen - 2011-05-27 12:10

Just because a few men abuse women does not make mean the Quraan said it and does not mean every muslim women is oppressed and abused. If a christian man abuses and oppresses his wife does that mean every chistian women is being abused and the Bible commands it. Most women who wear niqaab do it by choice so why can't the world just allow it what is everyone so afraid of? It a piece of cloth which is adorned by chioce.

nanima - 2011-05-27 13:41

@MJ the Quran was written in Arabic not English.. if you understand Arabic maybe you will understand the Quran.. there is no such thing as an English Quran..

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 14:01

that all you have to say?
This is a translation so all can understand.
I do read arabic

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:09

@MJ you still not understanding, Quran is Allah's i.e God's words. God in his infinite wisdom has decreed a few things.. nothing in the quran is man made accept the English translation of the Arabic Quran you are using..

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 14:27

And who in your religion told you G-d said these things?

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:41

@free thinker maybe you should ask Yvonne Ridley and the many christian woman why are they flocking to Islam.. that is the big problem why Europe is targeting not even 1% of the population because they see this as a threat because many have found peace and tranquility finally in serving God..

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 14:47

@nanima maybe u should ask Imam Abbas Abdul Noor, the scholar of Al-Azhar University and ex teacher there y he left islam at the age of 80 and also read his book while u at it its called "my ordeal with the Quran" its in Arabic. And also do more research and u'll see that most converts dont stay muslims for longer than 3 years once they learn the truth about islam.

jovie - 2011-05-27 15:48

@free thinker
I personally know about 50 converts and about 2-3 have left islam after they entered it.
How many do you Know? From personal experience not heresay or something you read in an article!

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 16:50

@jovial u cant seriously expect me to answer that, those people cud be lost and need to fit in for all I know. dont give me figures that u cant prove. maybe u should tell them to read the Medina verses of the quran instead of the mecca verses.

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 16:51

@jovie u cant seriously expect me to answer that, what are u? in grade 5 or something? those people cud be lost and need to fit in for all I know. dont give me figures that u cant prove. maybe u should tell them to read the Medina verses of the quran instead of the mecca verses.

Aadil - 2011-05-27 17:19

@ MJ84
The verse above that verse prohibits men from looking at women

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 12:27

The head covering is interpreted as a symbol of male domination by most critics and by many Muslim women, who have been fighting for the right to dress as they please. In December of 2007, a father in Canada beat his 16-year-old daughter to death for refusing to wear the hijab (headscarf).
Islamic law (Sharia) clearly requires women to cover themselves.
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:04

@MJ Allah wants us to cover ourselves. As father don't you want the best for your child. You know what your Lord want so will you not encourage her to do what is right to go to paradise. At the end of the day there is no compulsion in religion. The woman has a choice.. but as a parent if I see my child doing something wrong, i will encourage her on the right path..

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 14:46

So you admitt that when you have children you will start from a young age making them believe this is right?
That is called brainwash.

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:56

brainwashing, if you child is stealing and you tell them to stop stealing is that brainwashing

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-30 10:53

So you are trying to compare these two things:
1) Raising your child to believe she should cover herself and that she was born to serve men
2) Telling your child not to steal if they do
ARE YOU FOR REAL?!
Lady I have tried to be nice but you are a shining example of islamic brainwashing.
Anyone that has questioned your beloved religion or the fact you worship men that married children you delete the comments. What are YOU afraid of??

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 12:27

A very good link for those that do not know much about islam religion
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/quran.htm

jovie - 2011-05-27 14:07

Not really.. its more of a propaganda link!
Thanks anyway. Now i know where i should go if i need to hear propaganda!

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 14:25

Why is it a propaganda link?

jovie - 2011-05-27 14:58

Because its run by Islamophobes. If you want to learn about islam...
Do the obvious.. ASK a MUSLIM?

jovie - 2011-05-27 14:17

Why I Shed Bikini for Niqab -By Sara Bokker
http://www.stunninghijab.com/pages/Why-I-Shed-Bikini-for-Niqab%09.html
Personally speaking to muslim women and asking them about these issues will go along way in debunking many bias notions and phobias that are prevalent today!

nanima - 2011-05-27 14:42

The muslim woman are speaking but obviously they only want to hear what they want to hear..

MJ84@24.com - 2011-05-27 14:55

We are listening - but justifying a religion with so much violence and crystal clear history of woman abuse in every sense is not very convincing.

nanima - 2011-05-27 15:07

you are have already made you judgement MJ and unfortunately all the sisters in the world will be standing in front of you telling you what they believe in and you will never understand because your mind is made up..

nanima - 2011-05-27 18:02

@new24 @free-thinker has just insulted the most beloved prophet(SAW) why are you allowing this?

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 18:33

@nanima, even if they choose to delete my comments, atleast quite a few people have already read them and i hope it will encourage them to study their religion more and im only speaking the truth.

nanima - 2011-05-27 19:03

thank you free thinker now more people will want to find out the truth and the beauty of Islam..

Who knows what next in the name of "the LAW" - truly sad!!!! its an OUTRAGE!!

Gonny@24.com - 2011-05-29 13:11

Gaffoor - its an OUTRAGE when non-muslims are NOT ALLOWED TO WORSHIP or build places of WORSHHIP in muslim countries like SAUDIA ARABIA! Non muslims cant even enter Mecca! You come to the west and DEMAND rights but you treat nonmuslims like animals in your own countries!

nanima - 2011-05-27 15:18

@news24 I have seen some comments here that are insulting, attacking, disrespectful to muslims, the prophet Muhammad (SAW) and this goes against tolerance and respect for all religions and is hate speech towards us. Please moderate this thread, as you have deleted other comments, i feel it would be fair to delete these hateful comments as well..

saywhat - 2011-05-30 13:46

Nanima people have a right to air their views. it’s called freedom of speech. Why do you have a problem with others expressing their views? Because it’s not what you like or agree with? If you dont like the comments then dont read them. easy!

kgaffoor - 2011-05-27 15:22

Just read some of the comments from "some people" they seem to hate muslims all i can think of is that they stereo typical hypocrites who ARE so narrow minded in there thinking its depressing how do you call yourself a human?? maybe you just never had a decent role model to look up to.. sad i pray for your children if unfortunately have any...

Aadil - 2011-05-27 18:01

What does someone who invented his own God pray to ?

So-Feddup - 2011-05-27 15:26

Turn to Jesus all you people.. There is so much freedom, forgiveness and liberty found in Him and no need to squable of this law and that law.. And no, i dont mean turn to THE RELIGION OF CHRISTIANITY, but have a RELATIONSHIP with Christ.

nanima - 2011-05-27 15:42

As muslims we believe in Jesus son of Mary and the quran has a whole chapter dedicated to the mother of Jesus Mary. We are only trying to dress the way God wants us to dress the similar way that the mother of Jesus Mary dresses and the way nuns dress, modestly and for the sake of God.

taahirah.sayed - 2011-05-27 16:02

So-Fed, We believe that Jesus (GOD be pleased with him), will return... as Muslim. Our relationship with him as a Messenger of GOD is sorted, thank you.

So-Feddup - 2011-05-27 17:29

@taahirah.. you right about that.. Jesus Christ WILL return to this earth.. As the only begotton SON of GOD, who now is seated on the right hand side of God, who is also God who is longing for people to turn to Him so that He can wash away their sins and accept them into the family of God. He made this possible by coming to earth to die in like manner as a sinful man, therby taking the sins of the world onto Himself and making a way for us to have eternal life.. Its all by Grace he has done this and not anything that we could ever do for God can repay Him for this. It is because He love mankind so that he layed down his Life for the world as John 3:15 says "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever should believe on Him, should not perish but have eternal life" What an amazing gospel of peace.. There is no religion on earth that can match this amazing God of the Bible.. All other religions are based on what you can DO for God but not the Gospel of Christ, its about His grace extended to us. So yes, this is the time to repent and turn Him becuase when He does return (and the signs of the times are screaming this loud and clear) he will not be the Jesus, gentle meek and mild. He will come as righteous Judge and King of Nations and only those who have turn to Him for eternal life in this time of grace shall be saved...Hope you carefully consider this.. God Bless you.

Aadil - 2011-05-27 18:08

@ Feddup
that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life John 3;15
I think you got the wrong verse. There is no Verse in the Bible that says Jesus is the begotten son of God.
Think about this- if Jesus is God, why did he pray to God ?

So-Feddup - 2011-05-27 19:37

@ Aadil.. My apologies, it suppose to be John 3:16 not 15.. Read again, it definatly says Begotton Son (King James Version, which is a more precise translation from the original language) or One and only Son (NIV version) Regarding who Jesus prayed to,: the answer is found in understanding the Trinity and the incarnation of Jesus.
The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all existence. This one God exists as three persons: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are not three gods, but one God. Each is a separate person, yet each of them is, in essence, divine in nature

Aadil - 2011-05-27 15:38

@sardonicus
That is the Satr but it is better to cover more. It's not permissable to cover the face in Haj because thats a command, which is also proof that the Niqab is part of Islam while not in Haj

Arno Young - 2011-05-27 16:21

@nanima, its not the burqa per say, but what it represents. Islam comes over as a intolerable religion. You might say its not, but that's a perception. Its pervasive. It sets requirements. Perhaps not in Europe, yet, but in most countries where Islam rules.
First the burqa, then the minarets and soon an enclave establishes. Then perhaps sharia law is granted as most of the community ascribes to Islam, and so it grows. When freedom becomes prescribed, then its not freedom.
Your veil is not the problem, but the veil it steadily drags across the land where it is allowed, and the threats extremists brings with moderates, as France can testify.
If one women dresses normally, and she goes to a place where women all dress in burqa's surely the men of the area will be outraged. So not to offend the people, the casually dressed women will have to give up her freedom, to appease you? Not fair is it.

nanima - 2011-05-27 17:56

unfortunate as perceptions may be, we all law abiding citizens in this beautiful country but the whole world will think South Africa is filled with criminals.. but is this true..

Aadil - 2011-05-27 18:28

Yeah but the thing is that this law is not gonna stop us. We're everywhere
We will spread fast, your friends will become muslim, your family will become muslim and maybe even you if your lucky

Arno Young - 2011-05-27 18:53

Criminals are not praised, they are unequivocally condemned, although they exist.
Islam extremism is not unequivocally condemned, it is vocally and silently encouraged. Extremism of all religions are welcomed by their adherents, and moderates secretly wish they could do the same, but are diluted by the world/self.
I cannot accept your comparison, for the premise from which both operates are vastly different, but the same to non-believers.
Out of respect, for you as a person, I will only post the link:
http://keeptonyblairforpm.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/twenty-facts-about-islam-every-infidel-should-know/
Unless proven otherwise by the majority of Muslim states, this is what we the non-believers will believe and resist.

Arno Young - 2011-05-27 19:00

@Aadil, I have blood covenant with God. My trust is not in my ability. I have a promise from Him, that my whole family will be saved, so nope: They will not convert to Islam.

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 16:41

(There other choice is to piss off back to "Arabia" where they will get beaten for driving a car.)Yah we ALL Muslim go back to muslim land and all the whites back to the west.I think its a good idea we just have to close our (oil) Tap and we will see who will be driving around

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 16:48

Here is the proper translation of Verse4:34.
Nisa 4:34] Men are in charge of women, as Allah has made one of them superior to the other, and because men spend their wealth for the women; so virtuous women are the reverent ones, guarding behind their husbands the way Allah has decreed guarding; and the women from whom you fear disobedience, (at first) advise them and (then) do not cohabit with them, and (lastly) beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek to do injustice to them; indeed Allah is Supreme, Great.

Aadil - 2011-05-27 18:10

This is a complex Verse relating to the saving of the marriage
The hardest 'beating' is actually meant to be a symbol of dishonour- the severity of the beating was illustrated by Muhamed(SAW) as taping his index finger onto the palm of the hand.
You are quoting without any information on the details

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 18:18

are u so scared that other readers are gna see the truth about islam? he is giving direct quotes, there shouldn't be a need to explain anything cos the quran is clear rite?

Aadil - 2011-05-27 23:56

Its clear as a whole - not when u quote portions here and there to suit yourself

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 16:55

Free thinker here is verse2:228
[Baqarah 2:228] And divorced women shall restrain themselves for three menstrual periods; and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day; and their husbands have the right to take them back, during this time, if they desire reconciliation; and the women also have rights similar to those of men over them, in accordance with Islamic law - and men have superiority over them; and Allah is Almighty, Wise.

Aadil - 2011-05-27 18:12

"...and men have degree(of responsibility) over them..."

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 18:16

dont try and sugarcoat aadil the arabic quran does not have anything in brackets.

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:14

Nisa 4:3] And if you fear that you will not be just towards orphan girls, marry the women whom you like - two at a time, or three or four; then if you fear that you cannot keep two women equally then marry only one or the bondwomen you own; this is closer to your not doing injustice

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:15

Nisa 4:11] Allah commands you concerning your children; the son’s share is equal to that of two daughters; and if there are only daughters, for them is two-thirds of the inheritance, even if they are more than two; and if there is only one daughter, for her is half; and to each of the deceased’s parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he has children; and if the deceased has no children but leaves behind parents, then one third for the mother; and if he has several brothers and sisters, a sixth for the mother, after any will he may have made and payment of debt; your fathers and your sons - you do not know which of them will be more useful to you; this is the share fixed by Allah; indeed Allah is All Knowing, Wise

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:17

[Nisa 4:12] And from what your wives leave, half is for you if they do not have any child; or if they have a child for you is a fourth of what they leave, after any will they may have made or debt to be paid; and to the women is a fourth of what you leave behind, if you do not have any child; or if you have a child then an eighth of what you leave behind, after any will you may have made, or debt to be paid; and if a deceased does not leave behind mother, father or children but has a brother or a sister through a common mother, then to each of them a sixth; and if they (brothers and sisters) are more than two, then they shall all share in a third, after any will that may have been made or debt to be paid, in which the deceased has not caused a loss (to the heirs); this is the decree of Allah; and Allah is All Knowing, Most Forbearing.
[Nisa 4:12] And from what your wives leave, half is for you if they do not have any child; or if they have a child for you is a fourth of what they leave, after any will they may have made or debt to be paid; and to the women is a fourth of what you leave behind, if you do not have any child; or if you have a child then an eighth of what you leave behind, after any will you may have made, or debt to be paid; and if a deceased does not leave behind mother, father or children but has a brother or a sister through a common mother, then to each of them a sixth; and if they (brothers and sisters) are more than two, then they shall all share in a third, after any will that may have been made or debt to be paid, in which the deceased has not caused a loss (to the heirs); this is the decree of Allah; and Allah is All Knowing, Most Forbearing.
[Nisa 4:12] And from what your wives leave, half is for you if they do not have any child; or if they have a child for you is a fourth of what they leave, after any will they may have made or debt to be paid; and to the women is a fourth of what you leave behind, if you do not have any child; or if you have a child then an eighth of what you leave behind, after any will you may have made, or debt to be paid; and if a deceased does not leave behind mother, father or children but has a brother or a sister through a common mother, then to each of them a sixth; and if they (brothers and sisters) are more than two, then they shall all share in a third, after any will that may have been made or debt to be paid, in which the deceased has not caused a loss (to the heirs); this is the decree of Allah; and Allah is All Knowing, Most Forbearing.
[Ahzab 33:5] Call them with their fathers’ names – this is more suitable in the sight of Allah; and if you do not know their fathers, then they are your brothers in the faith, (and your cousins as humans) and your friends; and there is no sin upon you for what you did unknowingly in the past – however it is a sin what you do with your heart’s intention; and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Aadil - 2011-05-27 18:18

@ Free thinker.
I think they're freaks
Firstly the marriage proposal was a divine Request when Nabi (SAW) saw himself holding Ayesha(RA) in a dream.
Secondly, Ayesha(RA) agreed to the marriage
Thirdly, Ayesha had the option of divorce before the marriage was consumated.

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 18:26

@aadil Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated ‘Aisha:
Allah’s Apostle said to me, “You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, ‘Uncover (her),’ and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), ‘If this is from Allah, then it must happen.
so she was still a baby when muhammed saw her in his dream and he then knew that he must have her.
Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
can u give me a verse that says she had the option for divorce? Can a 9yr old make decisions for herself?

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:18

Tehreem 66:10] Allah illustrates the example of the disbelievers - the wife of Nooh and the wife of Lut; they were bonded in marriage to two of Our bondmen deserving Our proximity – they then betrayed them so they did not benefit them the least against Allah and it was declared, “Both of you women enter the fire, along with others who enter.”

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 17:21

and may i ask who's translations u are quoting?

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 18:08

i wana know whos translation? issit Muhammad Muhsin Khan? I only go with the yusuf ali translation into english.

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:19

[Baqarah 2:222] And they ask you the decree concerning menstruation; say, "It is an impurity, so stay away from women at such times, and do not cohabit with them until they have cleansed themselves; so when they have cleansed themselves, cohabit with them the way Allah has determined for you"; indeed Allah loves those who repent profusely, and loves those who keep clean.
[Baqarah 2:223] Your women are a tillage for you; so come into your tillage as you will; and first perform the deeds that benefit you; and keep fearing Allah, and know well that you have to meet Him; and (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) give glad tidings to the Muslims.

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:28

Noor 24:31] And command the Muslim women to keep their gaze low and to protect their chastity, and not to reveal their adornment except what is apparent, and to keep the cover wrapped over their bosoms; and not to reveal their adornment except to their own husbands or fathers or husbands’ fathers, or their sons or their husbands’ sons, or their brothers or their brothers’ sons or sisters’ sons, or women of their religion, or the bondwomen they possess, or male servants provided they do not have manliness, or such children who do not know of women’s nakedness, and not to stamp their feet on the ground in order that their hidden adornment be known; and O Muslims, all of you turn in repentance together towards Allah, in the hope of attaining success. (It is incumbent upon women to cover themselves properly.)

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:29

Baqarah 2:83] And (remember) when We took a covenant from the Descendants of Israel that, "Do not worship anyone except Allah; and be good to parents, relatives, orphans and the needy, and speak kindly to people and keep the prayer established and pay the charity"; thereafter you retracted, except some of you; and you are those who turn away.

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:30

Muzzammil 73:9] Lord of the East and Lord of the West - there is no God except Him, therefore make Him your sole Trustee of affairs.
[Muzzammil 73:10] And patiently endure upon what the disbelievers say, and leave them for good.
[Muzzammil 73:11] And leave them to Me – these wealthy deniers – and give them some respite.
[Muzzammil 73:12] Indeed We have heavy fetters and a blazing fire.

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:32

Maidah 5:27] And recite to them the true tale of the two sons of Adam; when both of them offered a sacrifice each - hence the sacrifice of one was accepted and not accepted from the other; he (the other) said, “I swear I will kill you”; he answered, “Allah accepts only from the pious.”
[Maidah 5:28] “Indeed, if you do extend your hand against me to kill me, I will not extend my hand against you to kill you; I fear Allah, the Lord Of The Creation.”

So-Feddup - 2011-05-27 17:36

At Taahira.. just in case you miss my previous post i will copy and paste.
@taahirah.. you right about that.. Jesus Christ WILL return to this earth.. As the only begotton SON of GOD, who now is seated on the right hand side of God, who is also God who is longing for people to turn to Him so that He can wash away their sins and accept them into the family of God. He made this possible by coming to earth to die in like manner as a sinful man, therby taking the sins of the world onto Himself and making a way for us to have eternal life.. Its all by Grace he has done this and not anything that we could ever do for God can repay Him for this. It is because He love mankind so that he layed down his Life for the world as John 3:15 says "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever should believe on Him, should not perish but have eternal life" What an amazing gospel of peace.. There is no religion on earth that can match this amazing God of the Bible.. All other religions are based on what you can DO for God but not the Gospel of Christ, its about His grace extended to us. So yes, this is the time to repent and turn Him becuase when He does return (and the signs of the times are screaming this loud and clear) he will not be the Jesus, gentle meek and mild. He will come as righteous Judge and King of Nations and only those who have turn to Him for eternal life in this time of grace shall be saved...Hope you carefully consider this.. God Bless you.

nanima - 2011-05-27 20:14

@fed up we also believe in Jesus son of Mary book the Injeel i.e. the bible sent to Jesus, Moses book the Torah, Davids book the Zabur.. as Taahirah said we also waiting for Jesus to return.. then there will be peace of earth

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:36

Anfal 8:12] And when O dear Prophet, your Lord was inspiring the angels that, "I am with you - so make the believers stand firm; I will soon instil fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, so strike above the disbelievers’ necks and hit their each and every bone joint."
[Anfal 8:13] This is because they opposed Allah and His Noble Messenger; and whoever opposes Allah and His Noble Messenger - then indeed Allah’s punishment is severe.

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:37

[A/I`mran 3:85] And if one seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted from him; and he is among the losers in the Hereafter.
[A/I`mran 3:86] Why should Allah will guidance for the people who disbelieved, after their having accepted faith and bearing witness that the Noble Messenger is a true one, and after clear signs had come to them? And Allah does not guide the unjust.

Black Gold - 2011-05-27 17:51

KAZUL IMMAN.Treasures of Faith.
I dont qoute half loke u,I qoute the whole verse so one can understand.
Read all my qoutes and you will get it where it states that we are equal.
Show me a qoute or proof where it says Our Prophet was illitrate or that he had sex with 9 year old.
I can not defend all Muslims as its per individual choice what to follow,But i can defend the misqouts you giving about the Quran.

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 18:01

issit not ur duty as a muslim to memorise the quran, so i give u the verse reference and u should know what it is.
It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves,” 62:2. and as for the age of aisha, u should be ashamed that u dont even know her age, maybe u can ask 1 of the muslims commenting whether im lying or not, Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’.

nanima - 2011-05-27 20:10

@free thinker - it was norm for Arabs to get married at that age and there many examples that will prove that point.. did you ever stop and think what the bigger picture is why Aisha(RA) was chosen by Allah to marry the prophet(SAW) at such a young age.. without her half of the hadith would never be around.. little facts of Aisha - n any discussion on the age of Aisha (ra: may Allah be pleased with her) at the time of her marriage with the Holy Prophet Muhammad (may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him), it is of the greatest relevance to note the pivotal role she played as a teacher, exponent and interpreter of the religion of Islam. Aisha was an exceptionally intelligent and astute woman, a young prodigy, and this was the main reason why she was got married to the Holy Prophet, as is clearly proved by events after the Holy Prophet’s life. She entered his household, shortly after his emigration to Madina, just at the time when the teachings of Islam in all fields of life for the Muslim community were starting to be revealed to the Holy Prophet and demonstrated by him by his example and practice. An intellectually gifted person was required who would have daily contact with the Holy Prophet at the closest and most personal level, so as to absorb the teachings that he was giving on all aspects of life by his words and actions. Such a person would need to possess the following qualities:
an excellent, precise memory to retain a vast amount of detail accurately,
the understanding to grasp the significance and the principles of the teachings,
powers of reasoning, criticism and deduction to resolve problems on the basis of those teachings,
the skills to convey knowledge to a wide range of audience,
and, finally, have the prospect of living for a considerable period of time after the death of the Holy Prophet in order to spread his message to distant generations.
That Aisha possessed all these qualities and carried out this mission is an absolutely positive and undeniable, historical fact. After the Holy Prophet’s death, she acted as a teacher and interpreter of Islam, providing guidance to even the greatest of the male Companions of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. They made a special point of going to her to gain knowledge and seek her opinion. A vast number of sayings and actions of the Holy Prophet are reported from her in books of Hadith. She not only quoted his sayings and reported her observations of events, but interpreted them to provide solutions to questions. Whenever necessary, she corrected the views of the greatest of the Companions of the Holy Prophet. She made rulings and judgments on which Islamic law is based.

nanima - 2011-05-28 08:22

If this was a problem at that time, even the worse enemies of Islam never said this about the prophet or found most of the things you raise as an issue. As I said you believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe and we will leave the rest to the Master of the day of Judgement.

Charnelle - 2011-05-27 18:18

I reverted to Islam recently, Alhumdullilah and I wear my abbyyah and scarf for the pleasure of Allah, Allhumdullilah. I was not forced to revert to Islam nor was I forced to dress the Islamic way. I have made this change for the love of Islam. Since I took the shahadat my 3 children also did from there own free will. Allhumdullilah.
My 2 daughters also wear the scarf and abbyyah and do so on there own free will. We make dua for Allah to make it easy for us. Ameen

nanima - 2011-05-28 08:23

yes morality norms seem to be decided by France and Belgium it seems..

Aadil - 2011-05-27 18:39

Everybody who commented against the Niqab are those who have not experienced or tried to understand it
Everybody who has said anything hateful about Islam hasn't really expeorienced the lifestyle. Haters without really knowing what they're hating. I'm a muslim and I love to be a muslim.
Live like a muslim before you judge us. Experience it before you decide.

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 18:46

i was a muslim, i used to also think islam is a beautiful peaceful religion, i was also stupid enough to cover up until i started asking questions about the things that didnt make sense and a whole new world opened up. im disgusted that i used to believe in all those things, i cant believe how i used to defend islam and lost a few non muslim friends. im disgusted that i didnt get a puppy becos "dogs prevent the angels from entering the home" im disgusted that i looked down on other religions. but im very grateful that i saw the truth b4 i married a muslim man.

nanima - 2011-05-27 20:12

are you happy @free thinker.. as long as you happy with your choice..

Gonny@24.com - 2011-05-29 12:57

We dont need to try it to understand it - thats like saying try DRUGS to understand why addicts need it!

michael.e.bowery - 2011-05-27 18:56

It can be called modesty, but it resembles brainwashed captivity where the woman is merely a receptacle of muslim men's narrow carnal desires. Long ago, the English had the chastity belt, which was supposed to keep the woman chaste. That of course was centuries ago so it puts the Burqa in perspective and where Muslims of that ilk are now. About four centuries behind the rest of the world.

nanima - 2011-05-27 19:39

what are the difference between a muslim in burqa and a num wearing her habit?

nanima - 2011-05-27 19:40

nun

maseratifitt - 2011-05-27 20:34

Ryobi, Bosch, Makita and Metabo put an end to the chastity belt.

Paco7 - 2011-05-30 14:37

is that why Islam is the fatest growing religion in the world....hahahahha u are such a joke

John Wilderness - 2011-05-27 19:41

So an article on the burqa provides another opportunity for the anti-muslim brigade again to showup. Why can't woman, muslim or not, decide what they want to, or don't want to wear ? Belgium is using Taliban tactics to force woman into doing something the may not want to do. Secondly what is so dangerous/repulsive/negative about wanting to wear a burqa ? If certain men are forcing woman to wear the burqa then deal with that issue and police the men's attitudes. Don't force woman into a certain dress code. How free is this Belgium country any way ?

maseratifitt - 2011-05-27 20:29

Agree. The women themselves should have a choice. Not influenced by authority from their men or any government or religion.

Tara76 - 2011-05-27 20:22

@ Nanima : As a Belgian female citizen (married to a SA husband) I can only tell you that if we were to move to a Arab country we would also have to adapt ! Here in Belgium mosque's are built with money given by the taxpayers and the government FOR the muslims. They have childsupport as big as a very good salary and then I m talking 20.000 rand for a few kids... There is a organisation that hopes to get Belgium under the islamic law (shari'ah). What about the true Belgian people who's ancestors worked for social security, freedom and our futures ? If you want to move to another country you must adapt to that country, otherwise they should live in a islamic country. We also have rights and the law against the burqa is there because of safety. Everyone must be able to be identified. We had people doing robbery's in those burqa's also. A law is for everyone, if you dont like the law in the country that took you in as a guest, by all means return to your country of orgine.

nanima - 2011-05-27 21:19

@tara will this apply only to muslims, what about doctors that have to cover their faces during operations does this apply to them as well. I also heard that in winter in Europe it get's very cold there as well. Do they where baklava's will they also get fined or is this only for the less then 1% muslim woman in the Belgium country. My issue is Belgium, Europe, France are all suppose to be democratic countries where is the freedom and my human right to dress how I want..

nanima - 2011-05-27 21:21

Europe being a continent

saywhat - 2011-05-30 15:25

nanima are you serious? how can you compare a doctors mask to a burqa? this is about women wearing the Burqa in PUBLIC! come on now! bikers are also not allowed to walk into banks or malls with their helmets on. it’s a matter of safety.
the fact is, Belgium is not a Muslim state. And Muslims living there need to abide by the rules. Plain and SIMPLE!

maseratifitt - 2011-05-27 20:26

Why hide something beautiful?

Nasreen - 2011-05-27 20:29

@ free thinker. You are so angry at islam because you did not get a puppy? You were once a muslim and now left our beautiful religion. How is your life now with your creator Allah? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world because people are starting to finally see the beauty in it. Islam is not only a religion its a way of life And yes Islam does not allow many things but only things which are harmful for you.If you let Allah into your heart you find the true beauty of this religion which is perfect.

Nasreen - 2011-05-27 21:27

Why would u want to even eat pig? Its such a filthy animal. Islam is the fastest growing religion because so many people are no reverting to islam. Islam has the answers to all question. How does it intrude in peoples lives? If you follow a religion you would want it apart of your life. If you hate islam so much why the anger? Just follow you new religion and let us who live for islam and will die for it practise what we want to. You are so against niqaab because you feel it was forced upon you but you are now wanting laws to be forced upon people who wish to wear it. Why is that?

@nasreen So let me give you one example that any child can understand. Let us say there is a dog in the neighborhood with rabies that is running around biting everyone. I grab my gun and go after him. Someone stops me and says my dog is sweet and friendly. That bad dog is not my dog. I say, fine, then there is no reason to worry. I love friendly dogs. Now let go of my collar so I can deal with this problem. Then this person starts attacking me and says I must not harm his dog. Doesn’t that prove that his “friendly dog” and that vicious dog are one and the same? What I look in people is their humanity. I look at their sense of justice, fairness, compassion, kindness, and empathy. Intellectualism challenges my mind, but what make me cry are simple acts of kindness. I want to promote goodness. I could not care less about beliefs.

Nasreen - 2011-05-27 22:15

You want to promote goodness. That's great we all do. But by taking away what someone wants to wear how is that promoting goodness? You say you look at their sense of justice, fairness, compassion, kindness, and empathy ... Well I would say the only human who had all those qualities is our beloved prophet muhammed pbuh. He was the perfect example. He showed us how to live.
You hate islam and really do not believe in it and you were once a muslim. I have one question for you how is it in makkah that the imaam can say Allahu Akbar n over a million people who speak different languages and are from all over the world can leave everything and pray to your creator Allah? Does it not amaze you? Does that not show you just how amazing Islam is?

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 22:31

If you go to Islamic websites or read many of the literature written by the Islamists, you will be amazed by silly logics they put forward in support of Islamic veil for women. Their logic runs the whole gamut ranging from protection of women from rape/prying eyes, a woman’s beauty is skin deep, how secured a woman feels, how beautiful a woman looks in hijab to divine sanction and……. blah, blah, blah. Many Muslims even believe that since the instruction of veiling had emanated from Allah so there must be some scientific reasons and give convoluted logic about the psychological make up of women and why they need to be put under Islamic cover (hijab). All these reasons are utterly hilarious to any person who has the slightest idea of the game that the Islamists play to fool the gullible believers. You will have a hearty laugh I swear when you come to know the real secret behind the Islamic veil and wonder why some Muslim women support it.
ahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 148:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 22:34

It is quite clear that there is absolutely no compelling reason to impose the intolerable and ugly hijab on Muslim women. If there was any reason, it could reasonably be attributed to the prehistoric toilet facilities that Muhammad offered to his wives. Do today’s women still head towards the open fields to defecate or to ease themselves? It may be true that in some very backward Muslim countries in Africa and Asia the sanitary/toilet facilities may still be very primitive but it is definitely not like what it used to be during Muhammad’s time.
I actually just found that out now, interesting, u learn something new everyday.

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 22:41

So Muhammad’s wives started to go to an open field only at night to answer the call of nature without any veil or proper attire. Hazrat Umor used to watch these ladies and was very uncomfortable and distressful to see them answering the call of nature in the open sky without much protection to their privacy. He requested Muhammad to cover his wives with veils whenever they went out to do their business in the open field at night.
At first, Muhammad ignored Umar’s plea. But when Umor kept on pestering him on this issue, he turned to Allah for His suggestion (since he did not have the pecuniary means to solve this toilet problem). Allah promptly sent down the verse on veil (33:59)

Nasreen - 2011-05-28 09:21

Why do you keep quoting from quraan and hadith and then twisting it all to suit you. The quraan is the word of Allah and a normal average person like you can't just mock it. You seem to have guilt issues that you left islam because you know how many miracles there in islam. Not from the past but if we just look around. I told you about Makkah but u ignored that. What about the Zam Zam well?

free-thinker - 2011-05-28 09:59

@nasreen can u tell me how im twisting it, Can u pls for the life of me be more specific as to where exactly have i twisted the words, I am quoting from the most authentic hadiths and I'm quoting from the yusuf Ali translation of the quran. is that all u can say in the defense of ur religion, I dare u to post ur translations that prove i am twisting the words.
If the well of Zamzam had come into being at the command of Allah, then why the Saudi authority should worry about its depletion?Is not the water of the ‘mysterious’ Zamzam supposed to last for ever, without help coming from mankind? ask urself this If the infant could precipitate the flow of water by merely rubbing his tiny legs on the surface of the sand, what had blocked it from overflowing, despite being forced to come out of the well by the pressure that the continuously accumulating water must have been building up at its bottom?
I didn't answer ur other question becos i dont see any beauty in that, u see ZCC people leave everything and flock to a mountain to pray, do u see beauty in that?

free-thinker - 2011-05-28 10:02

can u please mention another miracle that happened in the modern day?

mshhm48 - 2011-05-27 20:57

Ironic how these bans will serve only to make me draw my Hijaab even closer...
Yep. Ima HEAD-SCARF/BURQA UP with even more pride. :) :)
Funny that eh. You'd think I'd be reveling in this newly bestowed FREEDOM...this liberation...this empowerment.
Psssht. Nah. ThankYouForTheOffer, but I was BORN with nuff of that already you see, being born a Muslim Female.

Tara76 - 2011-05-27 21:46

@Nanima : You are comparing women on the street wearing burqa's with doctors in theatre wearing a mask ??? Religion should be in your heart, not in what you wear or dont wear. I am raised Catholic but I dont need a church to believe. Many muslims have a way of forcing their beliefs upon everyone, keep it to yourself... And yes Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion because of birth rates. Europeans dont pop 8 kids on average because we care about their education and future without thinking the government will pay. I have muslim friends myself but they are living in a european society and act like that.

Nasreen - 2011-05-27 22:01

Tara according to which study does it say that muslim women pop 8 kids. Muslim women have children once we are married. And islam is the fastest growing religion because people are now reverting to islam.

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 22:05

i fully agree with u Tara. keep ur religion in ur heart. for all we know it could be terrorists hiding underneath those burqas.

free-thinker - 2011-05-27 22:08

just like any cult, u show people the beauty of it 1st to lure them before revealing the true nature of it.

nanima - 2011-05-28 07:00

@tara just as the doctor needs protection against germs and has a valid reason to wear his mask so does the lady who wears her niqaab..

nanima - 2011-05-28 07:30

tara, no one is forcing anyone to do anything, by me dressing the way I want and you dressing you want, how are you forcing me to do anything. Only Belgium and France are forcing the ladies to remove their veil. when we refer to the stats of people coming to Islam we are not referring to our own children. Alhamdulillah, praise Allah we have been blessed with beautiful kids, we are talking about people like Yvonne Ridley, famous journalist, Lauren Booth- Tony Blair's sister in law, Kristiane Backer from MTV and millions of woman like these that are running to Islam.. not only them what about Cat Stevens, Yusuf estes an ex priest.. numbers are increasing in that way.. especially single liberated western woman in the are running to islam..