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The spirit comes into play when you don't see uke as the enemy but as another self. When you don't see that those that disagree with you as seperate or wrong. When you don't think that you are more or less human than others. Aikido shows us all that.

Very well formulated. It is a view that is shared by Buddhism and Shinto / Taoisme. And very much part of Aikido. If we come on the tatami with the notion that we are in any way more then the others then Aikido will be a humbling experience.

Thoughts about enemies or not, being different person, and so on may root in a certain worldview. But is there one certain worldview connected unseperable to aikidō?
And if so: Why isnt't it tought in the dōjō?
And how come that people with completely different worldviews can practice together?
Af if there is taught a certain worldview in the dōjō where does it stemm from? The students of Ueshiba told that he didn't teach a certain religion (not even ōmoto kyo), philosophy or spiritulity to be necessary to learn aikidō. So from where and when does this come in if someone teaches it on the mat?

I appreciate your view of aikidō, and I try to accept the view of Graham. If it works for you, this is fine with me. I think this is most important in life that people find their own way, a way the can follow and lead a "good" life.
But looking at my experiences on and off the mat and refering to my reading not only about aikidō, for me it is very clear, that this is your view of aikidō and the world. But that it is not universal, absolute. As no truth is. We always see only our section of the world. We don't see the word "as it is".

Obviously yes. Maybe not if only refering to a christian worldview. In a daoist understanding the body clearly is kind of vehicle and provides a gateway into the spiritual.

To me aikidō means using the body, kneading the body, practicing with the body, experiencing changes of the body, development ...
And experiencing how all this affects my "spiritual" Dimension in some way.

O Sensei did not teach religion as such. As far as I know I have never heard that O Sensei tried to convince anyone to become a member of Oomoto kyo.
Most of his students were raised in a Japanese setting, which included Shinto. In general there is much less conversion going on there then in for instance Christianity. Neither is there a problem with being a Shinto believer and a Buddhist. It is sort of all including and there is no need to switch to a particular group, unless one feels a personal need to do so.
As for non-Japanese; they can not become members of the Oomoto kyo. Most Shinto kannushi see Shinto as an indigenous religion. They will most of the time urge you to pursue your own indigenous religion. This idea was in a similar way also expressed in macrobiotics; only eat what in your own region can be grown.
O Sensei must have just assumed that his students were aware of there own indigenous believes.

Af if there is taught a certain worldview in the dōjō where does it stemm from? The students of Ueshiba told that he didn't teach a certain religion (not even ōmoto kyo), philosophy or spiritulity to be necessary to learn aikidō. So from where and when does this come in if someone teaches it on the mat?

But you see, it isn't taught on the mat, not our mat anyway. Using your terminology, this worldview is awakened in the student as a result of training and introspective reflection; or it isn't. And whether it is or isn't does not matter because each student takes something individually unique from the experience of training.

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

We don't see the word "as it is".

"As it is"? Is there, then, an objective reality that can be seen and that everyone can agree on? Does your Aikido training open the door to this objective reality?

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

To me aikidō means using the body, kneading the body, practicing with the body, experiencing changes of the body, development ...
And experiencing how all this affects my "spiritual" Dimension in some way.

... is awakened in the student as a result of training and introspective reflection; ...

Thank you!
This I can understand very well.

Quote:

"As it is"? Is there, then, an objective reality that can be seen and that everyone can agree on?

Sorry, I wanted to express that there is no such thing. And for that everybody can only see "his" or "her" reality. And everybody "shapes" the world in his/her own way.
"Truth" the ist something that evades when two persons comunicate their "worldviews" and put them together.

your not going to have the ability to harmonize with someone like Dan, aikido or martially
end of story. If your smart you will realize that your still in kindergarden
which is not a bad thing, most people are not smart, zen is about pulling the
rug out from under you.

your not going to have the ability to harmonize with someone like Dan, aikido or martially
end of story. If your smart you will realize that your still in kindergarden
which is not a bad thing, most people are not smart, zen is about pulling the
rug out from under you.

stan

Tarot? I don't know what smart has to do with Aikido. I don't think this thread has anything to do with the person of whom you speak.

Your means that which you own...I think you might mean you're. Since we are talking about smart.

The spirit comes into play when you don't see uke as the enemy but as another self. When you don't see that those that disagree with you as seperate or wrong. When you don't think that you are more or less human than others. Aikido shows us all that.

The experience of duality dissolving into unity has a great spiritual tradition and is often the basis for a deep unrequited longing. But how is it that "Aikido shows that"? If it could consistently, then wow!

What is unique about Aikido that brings us to spiritual experiences? For example, I have often heard an observer unfamiliar with Aikido state that it doesn't look like it could do much martially. Observations like this and our own experience as practitioners has led to vast amounts of written angst on this forum. I am afraid that the same may be true for Aikido spirituality. An objective observer might just shrug their shoulders.

Do Aikidoists in general have a an aspect of their practice that is consciously spiritual? How is this different from, let's say Karate, or even some non-martial activity that requires practice and skill? Am I just projecting my own spiritual ideas on my practice or is there an approach that has some required elements in order to be considered Aikido? Is there a connection between martial prowess and sprituality?

As for non-Japanese; they can not become members of the Oomoto kyo. Most Shinto kannushi see Shinto as an indigenous religion. They will most of the time urge you to pursue your own indigenous religion. This idea was in a similar way also expressed in macrobiotics; only eat what in your own region can be grown.
O Sensei must have just assumed that his students were aware of there own indigenous believes.

Tom

Acrtually, that's not quite right, there are non-Japanese members, although they don't really actively encourage it anymore. There was more outreach in the past - an office in Paris before the war, for example. I think that it's clear that Onisaburo Deguchi believed that he was destined for a role on the international level.

Very well formulated. It is a view that is shared by Buddhism and Shinto / Taoisme. And very much part of Aikido. If we come on the tatami with the notion that we are in any way more then the others then Aikido will be a humbling experience.

Tom

Those are religions and belief systems. Ueshiba stated flatly that aikido was not a religion it was a budo.
Budo must be effective. Ueshiba's budo was, for the most part, effective. I have no issue with the people who claim a spiritual foundation for their practice-I usually just ignore them until I see their claims of being effective.Sadly, when challenged, ulike those they follow, no one I have ever known stepped up to examination. They typically hide from examination of their claims at effective use, and remove themselves with every excuse imaginable from being put to the test. The most common being we are not competitive, or concerned with testing...while they don budo clothing, swing weapons, strike at each other and throw people.
The real thrust of most religions is challenge and living effective lives in an honest self examining way. I have rarely, well...actually NEVER...have seen a level of honesty and self-examination as a budo by those who claim the spiritual side of budo.

Spiritual leaders that people follow put themselves to the test.
Budo leaders put themselves to the test
Why is it that these spiritual/ budo people hide from being tested by doubters? There is a reason that the spiritual side of the art will forever by a side issue, beyond all rhetoric it can't deliver an effective budo.

The experience of duality dissolving into unity has a great spiritual tradition and is often the basis for a deep unrequited longing. But how is it that "Aikido shows that"? If it could consistently, then wow!

What is unique about Aikido that brings us to spiritual experiences? For example, I have often heard an observer unfamiliar with Aikido state that it doesn't look like it could do much martially. Observations like this and our own experience as practitioners has led to vast amounts of written angst on this forum. I am afraid that the same may be true for Aikido spirituality. An objective observer might just shrug their shoulders.

Do Aikidoists in general have a an aspect of their practice that is consciously spiritual? How is this different from, let's say Karate, or even some non-martial activity that requires practice and skill? Am I just projecting my own spiritual ideas on my practice or is there an approach that has some required elements in order to be considered Aikido? Is there a connection between martial prowess and sprituality?

What are Aikidoists trying to do when they practice?

Best regards,

Don Hebert

Those are good points Don
Most notable is that duality dissolving into unity is a profound budo principle that starts in yourself and then is epressed externally in an extremely powerful form. The reason for the angst is simple; so many discussing it have no clue as to what it means, are nothing extraordinary and will impress no one with any real skill.
The reason for the angst is very simple; they cannot deliver and they know it or those they touch know it. For those who really know what these things were about, there is no angst, and up against the senior teachers of budo...well...there really is no doubt either.

If people want a cooperative ride and "joining" why not take off the budo clothing, stop faking hitting each other and falling down, put down the weapons and put on yoga clothes and go play. Leave Budo to those involved with Budo.
I claim a spiritual side to my practice. It is expressed in an effective way to live my life and influence, family, co workers, friends, and community and it creates a dramatically effective budo. All of which are put to the test regularly.
Dan

Your comment on non-duality makes sense to me only if I enlarge it to encompass a wide range of external expressions. In other words, it could inspire an Aiki response in a martial situation if the person had the skill or it might manifest in some other way entirely. In any case it should have a quality of impeccability. For example it might move the person to offer themselves as a sacrifice.

Isn't it possible that a person who is very able to an effective martial response is simply able to be a skilled brute with a spiritual poverty? One doesn't seem to guarantee the other.

I have known extremely effective warriors whose skills employed in war in very nasty ways. They remain quite scary as individuals and I admire their apparent lack of fear. But they also suffer tremendously and seem damaged beyond cure.

On the other hand, some of the very best people I have known were not versed in Budo. They have been tested by life and have responded time and again with heart and incredible integrity. They weren't interested in impressing anybody.

I wonder if the spiritual side of your art if something you brought to it and in doing so found a great compatibility that strengthened both. Or did the study of budo draw you into the spiritual side?

Your comment on non-duality makes sense to me only if I enlarge it to encompass a wide range of external expressions. In other words, it could inspire an Aiki response in a martial situation if the person had the skill or it might manifest in some other way entirely. In any case it should have a quality of impeccability. For example it might move the person to offer themselves as a sacrifice.

Isn't it possible that a person who is very able to an effective martial response is simply able to be a skilled brute with a spiritual poverty? One doesn't seem to guarantee the other.

I have known extremely effective warriors whose skills employed in war in very nasty ways. They remain quite scary as individuals and I admire their apparent lack of fear. But they also suffer tremendously and seem damaged beyond cure.

On the other hand, some of the very best people I have known were not versed in Budo. They have been tested by life and have responded time and again with heart and incredible integrity. They weren't interested in impressing anybody.

I wonder if the spiritual side of your art if something you brought to it and in doing so found a great compatibility that strengthened both. Or did the study of budo draw you into the spiritual side?

Thanks for being provocative.

Don Hebert

Hi Don
I essentially agree with the points above. I am on the run so I will have to post tonight. I have some answers as to how I see them meshing and influencing each other.
Dan

I claim a spiritual side to my practice. It is expressed in an effective way to live my life and influence, family, co workers, friends, and community and it creates a dramatically effective budo. All of which are put to the test regularly.
Dan

Hey Dan,
Was this your point to post #97?

Quote:

NEVER...have seen a level of honesty and self-examination as a budo by those who claim the spiritual side of budo.

Would you be willing to describe how I have been falling short, or seem to be, in this regard? I would sincerely appreciate your opinion and will take absolutely no offense.
Sincerely,
Matt

Acrtually, that's not quite right, there are non-Japanese members, although they don't really actively encourage it anymore. There was more outreach in the past - an office in Paris before the war, for example. I think that it's clear that Onisaburo Deguchi believed that he was destined for a role on the international level.

Best,

Chris

Altogether you have seemed to miss my point. If we were to wonder why O Sensei did not encourage his non-Japanese students to become part of his religion, then the answer lies partly in the fact that the Oomoto kyo did not ecourage this at the time. Even if they may have made exceptions to that rule, it does not change that fact. The fact that Oomoto kyo had been active on reaching out on a bigger scale (Paris, Brasil) around 1925 is not relevant. O Sensei did not have foreign students at that time.

The experience of duality dissolving into unity has a great spiritual tradition and is often the basis for a deep unrequited longing. But how is it that "Aikido shows that"? If it could consistently, then wow!

What is unique about Aikido that brings us to spiritual experiences? For example, I have often heard an observer unfamiliar with Aikido state that it doesn't look like it could do much martially. Observations like this and our own experience as practitioners has led to vast amounts of written angst on this forum. I am afraid that the same may be true for Aikido spirituality. An objective observer might just shrug their shoulders.

Do Aikidoists in general have a an aspect of their practice that is consciously spiritual? How is this different from, let's say Karate, or even some non-martial activity that requires practice and skill? Am I just projecting my own spiritual ideas on my practice or is there an approach that has some required elements in order to be considered Aikido? Is there a connection between martial prowess and sprituality?

What are Aikidoists trying to do when they practice?

Best regards,

Don Hebert

Hi Don.
I would like to make comment here.

The experience of duality dissolving into unity: Isn't that the meaning of harmony? Part of the word Aikido. So when you see some Ki Aikido for instance you see Aikido expressing that no?

Now, many may see it and not get it and not see how it can be martial but there again many see it and see how it can. I often wonder and indeed ask if those who go against it can do it. 99% of the time they cannot. It's a skill which takes a lot of developing.

So even if someone is just learning to go along with then they are learning some valuable lessons in that alone for that in itself takes concentration and mental discipline. They at least are getting a glimpse of what it is like to harmonize so I would say it's essential for only then can they see what they are aiming for, to be able to do in more and more difficult situations. Keep going on that path and you would end up harmonizing with the most dangerous and fierce situations too. This is one way of looking at Aikido and I meet many inside and outside of Aikido who understand this. They also understand how that would take quite a time and lots of discipline.

Some Aikidoka have a consciously spiritual aspect in their Aikido but generally I have found this is not the case.

I have met some from other arts including Karate who are usually people who have been doing them for many years but then they start seeing the spiritual basis of even those arts. They too then bump into telling others yet not being understood by many for they can't help to see their art from a new, different perspective. I read on here recently how surfing can be a spiritual path leading to satori even.

So in my experience there are some approaches that have the required elements to be called Aikido.

Ahh, the question. Connection between martial prowess and spirituality? To me the answer is obviously so. The reality of this can only be gotten by doing it in such a way and demonstrating to yourself.

I find Aikido as an art is so all embrasive that you will find people doing it for all kinds of reasons and thus trying to do all kinds of things in their practice. Why not indeed? It has been so since time immemorial in all martial arts. That's reality and a reality that is missed by those who shout it must be for 'blah'.

Altogether you have seemed to miss my point. If we were to wonder why O Sensei did not encourage his non-Japanese students to become part of his religion, then the answer lies partly in the fact that the Oomoto kyo did not ecourage this at the time. Even if they may have made exceptions to that rule, it does not change that fact. The fact that Oomoto kyo had been active on reaching out on a bigger scale (Paris, Brasil) around 1925 is not relevant. O Sensei did not have foreign students at that time.

Tom

I wasn't talking about Ueshiba at all, just making a point about Omoto-kyo. It's not so much that they discourage it as much as they don't make efforts to evangelize, and only a small portion of the materials are available outside of Japanese or Esperanto. Anyway - foreign members were and are permitted in Omoto-kyo.

OTOH, it wasn't just non-Japanese students - he didn't encourage Japanese students to join his religion either.

There are of course physical locations in the body which are well known as spiritual 'gateways'. These are called chakras.

Peace.G.

Other than an unprovable belief, where can I find anyone capable of demonstrating unusual power and impressive budo skills using these gateways?
Who?
Where?
Where can you find people capable of expressing unusual power and impressive budo skills using the exact same models Ueshiba is now being correctly translated and quoted for?
Many places.
Many people.

Spiritual Aikido can be reduced to meaninglessness as budo as much as it can be discussed as an elevation of spirit.
OTOH, Spiritual Aikido can be expressed as a powerful vehicle ...of...budo as well as an elevation of spirit.
Who is doing the later?
No one can simply B.S. their way into being one of them...except on the internet. In person it has to be measured and it has to matter as a tested budo.
Dan

Other than an unprovable belief, where can I find anyone capable of demonstrating unusual power and impressive budo skills using these gateways?
Who?
Where?
Where can you find people capable of expressing unusual power and impressive budo skills using the exact same models Ueshiba is now being correctly translated and quoted for?
Many places.
Many people.

Spiritual Aikido can be reduced to meaninglessness as budo as much as it can be discussed as an elevation of spirit.
OTOH, Spiritual Aikido can be expressed as a powerful vehicle ...of...budo as well as an elevation of spirit.
Who is doing the later?
No one can simply B.S. their way into being one of them...except on the internet. In person it has to be measured and it has to matter as a tested budo.
Dan

Why do you ask? In history there have been some or many and today there or some or many. What's your point?

Why do you ask? In history there have been some or many and today there or some or many. What's your point?
Peace.G.

There are lots people believing lots of things. Good for them.
I asked for powerful people using that as meaningful to their budo. The people don't exist in budo because the model doesn't work for anything meaningful to develop a budo.
Anyone can "believe" anything they want, fine by me.....right up to them landing on their heads.
For anything meaningful in doingBudo this is a dead end.
Dan