Maybe you should, like, tell us some stuff first. Like, what do you want to learn about? What's your skill level? What software are you using?

Otherwise you'll have people recommending training in how to use Carrara when what you really wanted was the basics of modelling in Hexagon. Or maybe you're more advanced and want to make your own characters, and want to know some advanced stuff.

Did you read about the course? Did you see that they use Lightwave? That may affect whether it's helpful for you. And maybe you'd be better off taking advantage of all of the free training on the web, rather than spending $$$$ on training. There is a TON of free training out there for just about anything.

I have no clue who the instructor is for this series, but let me warn you there are quite a few self proclaimed experts out there who like to charge big money to people who don't know any better.

Ahh...wait a minute...this is the guy who said:

"I've was there myself, for years, frustrated and praying that my renders would at least look half as good as the ones I saw in the movies after I clicked 'Render.' I was relying on trial on error - and stubbornness! - to light my images. After 7 long years, I started to make some progress."

Took him SEVEN years to figure out he should actually learn about what he's doing instead of rely on trial and error. Personally, that's not the kind of guy I would trust to teach me anything.

I read about the Master er- whatever training and its seems to generic for my tastes.

I was wondering about the generic nature of this Master training since it covers Lightwave, Carrara, Daz Studio, Blender and Wings 3D...I figured it wouldn't go very deep into any of them.

As much as I do love PhilW's training -- and still refer back to it today -- there are a couple of places where I wish I had just a little bit more info. He did some great work on shaders and the shader room, but that is such a deep well that it would be nice to have more material there. Ditto for the Vertex Modeller -- he did a nice quick and dirty spaceship there...but now I want even more (I only recently learned about ruled surfaces for example and I still cannot comprehend Gordon or Coons surfaces).

So I was hoping this series might help me with doing more with vertex modelling...and I see that they have a course on lighting (a decently priced one and a stupid expensive one -- $1100?!!!? REALLY?!?!?!).

JoeMamma really nails a key point (7 years!) about the possible quality of this training. I'm tempted to buy it just in case there are a few nuggets of useful wisdom...but I'd love a read a better breakdown of what the course offers first.

It's not about the software. First learn the concepts, then the software will be MUCH easier. Learn the basic concepts of how to model quickly and efficiently. Learn what UV mapping is and the best ways to approach it. Learn lighting and color concepts first before you spend 7 years trying to figure it out for yourself. Learn what shading is, learn what all the properties of surfaces are, learn how materials react to light. Once you know that stuff, the settings and dials in the software will make a lot of sense, instead of trying to figure them out as you encounter them. That's backwards.

Like I say, there is a TON of free stuff out there, no sense spending money you don't need to spend. Decide what you want to learn about, search around or ask around, and you'll find some good stuff.

Don't think that by learning the software you're learning 3D. You're not. You can be a master at the software and not understand lighting, or shading, or modelling, or anything else you really need to know. It takes SO MUCH longer to do it backwards, and you end up getting nowhere.

I guarantee, if, for example, you decide you want to learn about how materials respond to light so you know how shaders work, you can do internet searches and find tons of excellent, generic stuff that explains it all. How many people spend years using 3D software, and don't even really understand what translucency and refraction are? Once you understand how stuff like that works, you'll be understanding and searching it out in the software, not bumping up against it and scratching your head trying to figure out what it is. Same goes for modelling. Learn the basic techniques for efficient box modelling, and understand UV maps and shading domains, then when you open the software you'll know what you're doing.

It's not about the software. First learn the concepts, then the software will be MUCH easier. Learn the basic concepts of how to model quickly and efficiently.

Absolutely right. You just described me to a T. As I have said before, I am a hobbyist not a professional; so my learning approach has been as backward as you describe. I'm learning what Carrara can do first rather than understanding basic concepts.

I do have a book on digital lighting that is meant to be generic (though all the screenshots do show high-end software packages). I am still working my way through it (very slowly).

Like I say, there is a TON of free stuff out there, no sense spending money you don't need to spend. Decide what you want to learn about, search around or ask around, and you'll find some good stuff.

That can be part of the challenge though. Often you simply do not know what to ask about in order to start learning those basic concepts. I am hoping that a package like this would cover those basics at least enough to get a foothold for future self-teaching.

Learn the basic techniques for efficient box modelling, and understand UV maps and shading domains, then when you open the software you'll know what you're doing.

No doubt. I'd love to understand modelling and UV maps far better than I currently do.

I read about the Master er- whatever training and its seems to generic for my tastes.

I was wondering about the generic nature of this Master training since it covers Lightwave, Carrara, Daz Studio, Blender and Wings 3D...I figured it wouldn't go very deep into any of them.

As much as I do love PhilW's training -- and still refer back to it today -- there are a couple of places where I wish I had just a little bit more info. He did some great work on shaders and the shader room, but that is such a deep well that it would be nice to have more material there. Ditto for the Vertex Modeller -- he did a nice quick and dirty spaceship there...but now I want even more (I only recently learned about ruled surfaces for example and I still cannot comprehend Gordon or Coons surfaces).

So I was hoping this series might help me with doing more with vertex modelling...and I see that they have a course on lighting (a decently priced one and a stupid expensive one -- $1100?!!!? REALLY?!?!?!).

JoeMamma really nails a key point (7 years!) about the possible quality of this training. I'm tempted to buy it just in case there are a few nuggets of useful wisdom...but I'd love a read a better breakdown of what the course offers first.

Hi Garstor,

Thanks for your comments about the Carrara Training. There was a limit to what I could include in the first volume and as this was more aimed at newbies to Carrara, modelling was one of the areas that was perhaps covered "lightly". There is much more focus on modelling in the Advanced Carrara title - although I realise that this would be another purchase.

I wouldn't worry too much about Gordon's or Coons surfaces - although I understand them, I don't think I have ever actually needed them to make a model. Most modelling can be achieved using a fairly limited subset of tools.

I have seen some Dreamlight tutorials and I personally found that they seemed a bit dragged out, taking a while to make the point, but I haven't seen this specific package and so cannot comment in detail.

Thanks for your comments about the Carrara Training. There was a limit to what I could include in the first volume and as this was more aimed at newbies to Carrara, modelling was one of the areas that was perhaps covered "lightly". There is much more focus on modelling in the Advanced Carrara title - although I realise that this would be another purchase.

I totally understand the necessary limitations of the format Phil. I am sure that no one training package for any product could possibly please all customers. It will be either too shallow or too deep. As a fairly neophyte type I was blown away by your material -- I return to it still (especially the rural cottage bit on creating distribution maps in PhotoShop) when I work on my own scenes for refreshing my memory.

Come to think of it, I should watch the Sopwith Camel modelling sessions again.

I get paid next week and if the mortgage doesn't entirely wipe out my bank account, I just might pick-up this package and report back to this thread! ;)

If this forum's uber-gurus could get together, I'd bet there could be some killer training produced. As Joe mentions, there is some free stuff out there (Hi cripeman!) once you know what to look for.

It was nothing against you, just a recognition after a number of years visiting this forum that many people here will argue and argue and argue against stuff that is factual, rather obvious, and based on many years of experience. So I fully expected those voices to pipe up and jump on what I said, or just ignore it completely if favor of their own biases, or just take it as some personal attack and get angry. My sarcasm has developed, unfortunately, after years of being beaten up and attacked for just trying to help and improve peoples' skill levels.

Anyway, please don't assume (and I'm not addressing this to anyone in particular, just in general) that because you're a hobbyist and not a professional that you should somehow restrict your learning. I hear that all the time, and I don't understand it. "I'm just a hobbyist"...

The concepts involved are NOT difficult. They are fairly simple. Don't think they are somehow too advanced for you, or too difficult to understand.

I really, really think that people would enjoy the hobby a lot more if they understood the basics, which would allow them to produce stunning results that amazed even themselves. "Wow, I did THAT??"

And it certainly would make your life simpler, and save you a LOT of time and frustration. Why spend years and years fumbling around when you can spend a fraction of that time learning the basics, and as a result get to where you want to be much much sooner?

But instead I see a lot of people who are openly hostile to any new concepts or learning, unless it involves what dials to spin in Carrara. The attitude seems to be "I know what I know and I don't wanna know no 'mo". You almost never (or is it never) hear anyone asking about basic concepts, it's always about how to spin dials. Which is really unfortunate, because I think people are missing most of the real joy of the art and the hobby. And yes, I know this is a Carrara forum, but the basic concepts are inextricably tied to the implementation, so at least there should be some discussion of those concepts.

Anyway, I'm not saying this against anyone in particular or you, Garstor, just mentioning a recurring theme that pops up regularly here.

It was nothing against you, just a recognition after a number of years visiting this forum that many people here will argue and argue and argue against stuff that is factual, rather obvious, and based on many years of experience.

Ah, the vagaries of internet communication...messages are stripped visual and audible clues that help the communication process along and the messages to be correctly parsed. All we have here are smileys... :P

I never interpreted you as being on an attack; I can certainly relate to the pent-up frustration that led to it. It just seemed unnecessary here. Let's move on with the topic at hand.

Anyway, please don't assume (and I'm not addressing this to anyone in particular, just in general) that because you're a hobbyist and not a professional that you should somehow restrict your learning. I hear that all the time, and I don't understand it. "I'm just a hobbyist"...

There is another recent thread (this one I believe: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/4021/) that set the differences between hobbyist and professional quite nicely. For me, I am playing around with Carrara and if a nice / interesting scene comes of it, so much the better. I am not making money off of it with models or animation.

Before Carrara, I used POV-Ray. It's free but it's development cycle is glacially slow (how little I knew..."8.5! Why dost thou torment me!?!"). Building a scene there is very much like programming in the C language; that appealed to me but it was also slow and frustrating. I couldn't understand how some people could produce such incredible works of art with it. There was a complete manual (at least we had that), but I still found the learning curve far too steep. I'd try something and the language parser would vomit errors back to me.

The concepts involved are NOT difficult. They are fairly simple. Don't think they are somehow too advanced for you, or too difficult to understand.

Thanks! I appreciate the vote of confidence. I tend to learn best with a combination of book/manual and playing around. That's why PhilW's training material appealed to me. There was the voice of experience telling you about something and then showing you. It was the best of both worlds.

I really, really think that people would enjoy the hobby a lot more if they understood the basics, which would allow them to produce stunning results that amazed even themselves. "Wow, I did THAT??"

Totally right. It is a thrill when something really neat turns out (all the moreso when everything is done by you...no other models). One of my friends keeps telling me to learn lighting. I will...slowly...sped up a bit by some of the free tutorials that are out there (when I stumble upon them). I need to explore some of the other lights in Carrara -- I mainly use Bulb lights and sometimes Spots; I'm sure better effects can be acheived with the other lights.

And yes, I know this is a Carrara forum, but the basic concepts are inextricably tied to the implementation, so at least there should be some discussion of those concepts.

Perhaps it would behoove Daz to add a forum for just there. Yeah, there is the newbie forum (oddly enough I almost never go in there); but as you point out, it is usually about dial spinning. A forum dedicated to basic concepts might be useful (though I imagine it would devolve rapidly into "dial spinning" threads...).

We're not so far apart on these issues after all.

Phil, if you ever want to do a Part 3 to your training...I am totally there. Front row. :coolsmile:

I am in the Dreamlight course. He is very knowledgeable and I like (and read) the segments for each of the programs. As an absolute newcomer to modeling and 3D, I haven't gotten very much out of it. I need step by step instruction, spelled out in detail, in print. For those with more experience, such as knowing how to use your program of choice, I can see the value of the course though.

I would add my voice to say that lighting is the key to good 3D rendering (in my view). Understand how lighting works - direct and indirect lighting - and you will have a powerful toolkit to add realism and drama to any scene.

Garstor - thank you for your support. I am interested to know, if there were to be a 3rd part to the training (and I have to say here that there are no current plans), what would you like to see in it? Perhaps that should be the subject of a separate thread...

I am in the Dreamlight course. He is very knowledgeable and I like (and read) the segments for each of the programs. As an absolute newcomer to modeling and 3D, I haven't gotten very much out of it. I need step by step instruction, spelled out in detail, in print. For those with more experience, such as knowing how to use your program of choice, I can see the value of the course though.

Hi AtticAnne!

Do you think you haven't gotten much out of it due to being a newcomer? Perhaps not yet able to grasp what concepts are the most important (and as you can see in this thread, those are debatable!)?

For Carrara modeling the old book the Carrara 5 Pro Handbook by Mike de la Flor was a huge help for me to learn how to model. It has several modeling projects in it. Two of the modeling projects in it are for Hexagon too. It doesn't cover some other things about Carrara that I would have like it too., but for basic modeling it was top notch.

Lighting is going to be what you want to learn first before moving into modeling. I highly recommend you get a copy Digital Lighting and Rendering (2nd Edition) , by Jeremy Birn it will save you a lot of headaches and teach you all about 3D lighting and what you want to know to get good lighting regardless of what program you use. This is the single best instructional I've seen on lighting and is a must have item.

He also has some stuff on his website that is helpful to a beginner to 3D too.

I am in the Dreamlight course. He is very knowledgeable and I like (and read) the segments for each of the programs. As an absolute newcomer to modeling and 3D, I haven't gotten very much out of it. I need step by step instruction, spelled out in detail, in print. For those with more experience, such as knowing how to use your program of choice, I can see the value of the course though.

Hi AtticAnne!

Do you think you haven't gotten much out of it due to being a newcomer? Perhaps not yet able to grasp what concepts are the most important (and as you can see in this thread, those are debatable!)?

Yes, not only a newcomer to 3D, but also to Hexagon. I could open the program, but didn't have any idea of what to do next. I was expecting (and hoping) for something more basic, with assignments given.

There is another recent thread (this one I believe: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/4021/) that set the differences between hobbyist and professional quite nicely. For me, I am playing around with Carrara and if a nice / interesting scene comes of it, so much the better. I am not making money off of it with models or animation.

There is another thread that explains the difference between Pros and hobbyists and if I can find it, I will post it for you to read.

The thread you referenced has the air that if you aren't working for ILM making a couple hundred thousand a year, somehow you aren't a "real" pro. That kind of thing is bogus and poisonous and should be avoided at all cost.

I'm glad to see you are interested in Carrara. Basic principles are important, just as knowing what dials to spin. Hopefully you can learn what you need to learn to reach your own personal goals.

I have not forgotten about this thread! I have been downloading all of the video files first.

I can tell you that I am unimpressed with the website and its navigation. It is full of "one-way streets" with no menu options to return from whence you came (save for the browser back button). Upon signing up with Dreamlight, I have been receiving regular emails -- not quiiiiite spam but pretty darn close.

The messages generally concern other 3D topics provided by Dreamlight - building a space battle scene, building a nude model scene, etc. - so I don't mind that so much. However, yesterday I did receive an email with the subject line "Free Report: Crush Stress And Claim Back Your Life Now." This has nothing to do with Dreamlight's services and I am not pleased with that. I suspect that by clicking on the "unsubscribe" link that I may have removed myself from the email ads that I actually do give a very slight damn about...

Lastly, the signup process gave me access to the free video "3 devastating habits that prevent you from creating stunning DAZ Studio 3D art and how you can stop them today..." This video is a 35 minute sermon about having confidence in your skills and the earth-shattering revelation that learning never ends -- hence my emphasis above should taken with a serious dose of sarcasm.

This video could have easily been condensed to 12 minutes and still considered long-running. Hopefully this verbosity and repetition doesn't translate to the technical content stuff. I should get around to reporting on that over the weekend.

Well, I am slowly working my way through 3D Model Master training. As previously mentioned, the training is extremely verbose. Even the simplest concepts are needlessly drawn out.

I am currently in Module 4 -- which is where the basic concepts (points, polygons, move, resize, etc.) are started to be explained. The training is done inside Lightwave but occasionally Carrara, Hexagon, Blender and Wings 3D are shown.

Thus far, I have to say that PhilW's Infinite Skills training is far superiour with its focus on Carrara. I do hope that forthcoming modules on UV Mapping and creating textures in Photoshop will help advance my Carrara skills. Time will tell.

Well, I am slowly working my way through 3D Model Master training. As previously mentioned, the training is extremely verbose. Even the simplest concepts are needlessly drawn out.

I am currently in Module 4 -- which is where the basic concepts (points, polygons, move, resize, etc.) are started to be explained. The training is done inside Lightwave but occasionally Carrara, Hexagon, Blender and Wings 3D are shown.

Thus far, I have to say that PhilW's Infinite Skills training is far superiour with its focus on Carrara. I do hope that forthcoming modules on UV Mapping and creating textures in Photoshop will help advance my Carrara skills. Time will tell.

Keep us up to date. Would love to know if it does get any better.

I've done the Light Master training. I agree about the verbosity. He does tend to over talk his points.

I was in no way denigrating the geekatplay tutorials. They do a very nice job of explaining some of the tools in Hexagon, and I've used those tutorials myself. Good stuff.

My comment was directed at the "...will teach you whatever you need to know to become a 3D modeller". I suppose I could go into a long explanation of how expert/professional 3D modellers who've been doing this for many years would laugh at that statement, but I'm sure it would only make people upset. So I won't.

I was in no way denigrating the geekatplay tutorials. They do a very nice job of explaining some of the tools in Hexagon, and I've used those tutorials myself. Good stuff.

My comment was directed at the "...will teach you whatever you need to know to become a 3D modeller". I suppose I could go into a long explanation of how expert/professional 3D modellers who've been doing this for many years would laugh at that statement, but I'm sure it would only make people upset. So I won't.

Not suggesting you were denigrating geekatplay. I only thought you might not know about it, so I provided the link.

I've done the Light Master training. I agree about the verbosity. He does tend to over talk his points.

Greetings gang! Sorry about being gone for so long; but life happens y'know?

So I managed to get to module 7 of DreamLight's Model Master Training -- UV Maps. I have to admit, I think this training was worth the purchase price just for this module!

Let's get the criticism out of the way first though. We have already mentioned how verbose this guy is...dragging on even the simplest of points for many, many minutes. He often repeats things that do not bear repeating. This is by far the hardest part to endure with this training package.

I've made no secret about loving PhilW's Infinite Skills training for Carrara; but I have to confess that I did not understand the UV mapping section on the first pass. My learning style tends to be layering different sources of information -- saying the same thing with different words, so to speak. So combined with these forums, the IS training (I re-watched the UV mapping section) and the DreamLight training...I can say that I have a pretty good conceptual grasp on UV mapping now.

The DL training is focused on Lightwave, but occasionally other 3D tools are shown for comparison. DL seems to have very little respect for Carrara and when he shows UV mapping in Carrara he repeatedly states that Carrara makes it harder than it needs to be. Perhaps he is right, but Phil's IS training showed off Carrara UV mapping features that DL raved about in Hexagon but completely ignored in Carrara. I thought that was unfair.

I am now looking forward to the DL module on using Photoshop to create textures. I hope that this helps solidify the UV mapping concepts in my mind.

.....I'd be a lot less apt to purchase if it was full price without knowing
what the instructor or training was like, though it may still be worth it.

Would be good if there was a free sample so you know you can at least
understand him, e.g. PhilW's tutorials. He's not loud but he is clear
and well organized.....essential for a video tutorial instructor.

Sorry! Just realized that I totally missed the fact that you already purchased the
course (for $96, I hope), and are well into it.

No excuse......will try to pay better attention to what has been already
posted!

Apologies to all!

BTW,
Waldemar has not replied to my query about the price......i.e. if the 1/2 price
deal is still available. But after reading your review, sounds like the money would
be better spent on PhilW's Advanced Carrara training......so I'll pass on the DL deal.

But hope you are getting some benefit from the DL course in spite of the verbosity.