...you do realize those are TV shows?
As in, they're not real?
The characters in them are fictional?

And I was talking strictly about the exaggerated male character archetype in this strip. It's a blatant hyperbole for the sake of humor. The last panel should make that pretty evident.

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:

Dude who missed the point post ^

Dogen wrote:

... not to mention that he apparently doesn't know what satire is? Satire is mocking the vices or abuses of a person or people to shame them, not to make fun of something that doesn't exist. It would be odd to mock society for something society doesn't do... unless I'm misunderstanding his definition.

There is a profound failure to communicate going on here. By "stereotype that does not actually exist", Shadow seems to have meant "people matching this exaggerated masculine ideal do not exist", not "these notions and expectations of masculinity are not actually present in society". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

A common feature of satire is strong irony or sarcasmó"in satire, irony is militant"[2]óbut parody, burlesque, exaggeration,[3] juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing.

Pointing out that satire isn't real is like pointing out that TV shows are fiction, which he also did... it would seem to miss the point._________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

A common feature of satire is strong irony or sarcasmó"in satire, irony is militant"[2]óbut parody, burlesque, exaggeration,[3] juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing.

Pointing out that satire isn't real is like pointing out that TV shows are fiction, which he also did... it would seem to miss the point.

If that's intended as a response to me, I think you may need to reread what I said.

EDIT: Let me put it this way: "As in, making fun of a supposed stereotype that doesn't actually exist." = "As in, making fun of a stereotype."

Those two sentences sound like they contradict each other to us, but I think s/he was actually just being redundant.

Ok, here's the thing about why TV shows using certain stereotypes indirectly affects the roles of genders in society. I'll focus on the mediatic differences between men and women.

Historically (way before the TV was even invented) men have been perceived and portrayed as strong, independent, hard working and with high leadership.

Women, on the other hand, have been portrayed as submissive, weak, emotional and given the role of housewives.

The media doesn't tell us how we will be, of course, but it gives us ideas on how we should be, at least as perceived by society. With this in mind, it's pretty much unavoidable for some men to think of women as inherently inferior, even if their conscious selves disagree.

There are so many layers of this that it's ridiculous, but I wanted to tell this: Yeah, media representation matters and we translate its stereotypes into real life._________________Welcome to Sinfest, the only place with a 46 pages long thread about sentient toasters

Ok, here's the thing about why TV shows using certain stereotypes indirectly affects the roles of genders in society. I'll focus on the mediatic differences between men and women.

Historically (way before the TV was even invented) men have been perceived and portrayed as strong, independent, hard working and with high leadership.

Women, on the other hand, have been portrayed as submissive, weak, emotional and given the role of housewives.

The media doesn't tell us how we will be, of course, but it gives us ideas on how we should be, at least as perceived by society. With this in mind, it's pretty much unavoidable for some men to think of women as inherently inferior, even if their conscious selves disagree.

There are so many layers of this that it's ridiculous, but I wanted to tell this: Yeah, media representation matters and we translate its stereotypes into real life.

That's all true. What I was postulating was that by "doesn't actually exist" Shadow just meant that such stereotypes were inaccurate, but you think s/he meant that the stereotypes are present in fiction, but not the public consciousness?

EDIT: Let me put it this way: "As in, making fun of a supposed stereotype that doesn't actually exist." = "As in, making fun of a stereotype."

Those two sentences sound like they contradict each other to us, but I think s/he was actually just being redundant.

That would be an awfully odd way to use the phrase "doesn't actually exist," to mean something that does exist but in a less exaggerated state. I'm all for the principle of charity, but that seems like it would take a lot of logical contortion to get there.

EDIT: Wait, now we're talking about whether the satirized stereotypes are accurate? That seems pointless, since by definition stereotypes are based on the irrational belief that all members of some class share some set of behaviors or attributes._________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

I'm explaining the relevance. Even if you think that the trope doesn't translate to real life (It does, in its way) you still can't dismiss its importance._________________Welcome to Sinfest, the only place with a 46 pages long thread about sentient toasters

EDIT: Let me put it this way: "As in, making fun of a supposed stereotype that doesn't actually exist." = "As in, making fun of a stereotype."

Those two sentences sound like they contradict each other to us, but I think s/he was actually just being redundant.

That would be an awfully odd way to use the phrase "doesn't actually exist," to mean something that does exist but in a less exaggerated state. I'm all for the principle of charity, but that seems like it would take a lot of logical contortion to get there.

"Exaggerated notion of masculinity" = "Stereotype"

"[Men who live up to] Exaggerated notion of masculinity" do[es] not exist.

Dogen wrote:

EDIT: Wait, now we're talking about whether the satirized stereotypes are accurate? That seems pointless, since by definition stereotypes are based on the irrational belief that all members of some class share some set of behaviors or attributes.

We're not talking about anything different than we were before, just articulating it in different ways until we understand each other. My whole argument is pretty pointless now that I've spent four posts trying to articulate a theory on what another poster might have meant, so I'm gonna go now.

Ah, but Sam, I doubt you think of them solely in regard to the attributes involved in the trope. I'm sure you're more then aware they're people too, that they are fully capable of being gloomy on occasion and might even feel the need to stay at home and enjoy some quiet time sometimes._________________Deviant Art | Twitter | Tumblr

"[Men who live up to] Exaggerated notion of masculinity" do[es] not exist.

Maybe I'm just an idiot, but the notion that real people don't live up to an exaggerated idea seems obvious (otherwise it wouldn't be exaggerated), and not the point of satire. If the OP meant to use the term satire, then the exaggeration is done to highlight the behavior and sometimes to make it ridiculous, not to suggest that it exists as depicted. So, to say that people don't exist that embody the exaggerated stereotype is a pointless criticism of satire, unless one makes the further argument that the behavior being exaggerated also doesn't exist (that is, there is no real person to exaggerate).

If a behavior exists that one wants to criticize, then exaggerating it to the point of ridiculousness is a normal way to satirize it.

In any event, I appreciate your willingness to defend someone else's argument, even if we didn't get very far. _________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

Ah, but Sam, I doubt you think of them solely in regard to the attributes involved in the trope. I'm sure you're more then aware they're people too, that they are fully capable of being gloomy on occasion and might even feel the need to stay at home and enjoy some quiet time sometimes.

This is true...and in good writing we get to see that. Really the Manic Pixie Girl is only negative in the wish fulfillment sense that it sometimes exists. There's plenty of characters that fit the trope (even a few men) that are well written and flushed out without being the wish fulfillment stereotype joke Tat made here.

I think it's sad that some people get more fullfilment out of the concept of a flat, appeasing character than a rounded person with complex emotions. Like Samsally, true fun in life is knowing there's someone who changes their mood from time to time. =P_________________

Ah, but Sam, I doubt you think of them solely in regard to the attributes involved in the trope. I'm sure you're more then aware they're people too, that they are fully capable of being gloomy on occasion and might even feel the need to stay at home and enjoy some quiet time sometimes.

Dude, Sam's like an amalgam of Oberon and Titania. If he says he's surrounded by manic pixie girls, it's only cuz' they are dancing around him; they are moths to his flame . . . or maybe that's only in the sinfest slashfic I wrote about him and himself, reality's become fuzzy lately_________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.http://about.me/omardrake

There is a profound failure to communicate going on here. By "stereotype that does not actually exist", Shadow seems to have meant "people matching this exaggerated masculine ideal do not exist", not "these notions and expectations of masculinity are not actually present in society". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's correct.

Words are very limiting and can often cause confusion.

Unless, of course, the recipient has the Patriarchy Blockers engaged. Then everything always makes perfect sense.