In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Funny how Brady has to actually lead the league to get an MVP, but Manning doesn't even need to be close to that it seems.Posted by BabeParilli

Babe, what year would you have had Brady win an MVP in a year that he did not?

As I stated, the colts did not lose a reg season game until Manning was rested. Brees did. And the saints won a game despite Brees 1 td and 4 int performance. Brees had a better all around crew around him than Manning did that year, also.

So, losing a SB by 3 points, after series of miraculous events, is a "huge choke"? You act like the Giants weren't good and didn't push NE to the max in Week 17.Posted by RidingWithTheKing

Blowing a perfect season is a huge choke, bad luck or not. It's not a word I like applying to our team, but being honest I must. The Giants played well, but we didn't play well at all consdering how good we were. If you let an inferior team hang around in a game because you are in dreamland reading your press clippings, sometimes bad breaks will beat you. And doing this at the moment of truth to close a perfect season is the epitome of a choke. Frankly, I was screaming at the team the whole game for playing with no heart. That Giants team was extremely beatable by that Pats team. I may never get over it.

In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : 15 points at halftime was the greatest lead in pllayoff history? What was the Oilers/Bills game in 1992? Just curious. You must be new to watching the NFL. That's one example and I am sure I could find many others. I also don't count ref bagjobs for the opposing teams as a fault of my defense. Sorry. I am not going over this again, but there is at least a 14-17 point swing based on flat out bogus calls or non calls by the refs in the second half, basically controlling how Undy got back into it. Not debatable. As for SB 42, the reality is, it was the flukiest SB win of all time. We'll never, EVER see a series of plays like that ever in our lives again, especially a catch off a helmet with one hand. You act like they got shredded or something. They didn't in either case.Posted by RidingWithTheKing

as time goes on, the fish gets bigger and biggger and bigggger. Within the next ten years the refs will have caused at least a 31 point swing in that game.

In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Babe, what year would you have had Brady win an MVP in a year that he did not? As I stated, the colts did not lose a reg season game until Manning was rested. Brees did. And the saints won a game despite Brees 1 td and 4 int performance. Brees had a better all around crew around him than Manning did that year, also. In terms of value, there's no question Manning was the most valuable. Posted by UD6

I would not make a big argument that Brady should have been MVP any year he was not.

I don't understand your double standard. You mention the Colts not losing a game while Brees did lose to justify an MVP, yet discount SB wins because it is a "team" achievement.

And you have yet to address my contention that MVPs have a lot to do with who you play with just as SBs do.

I didn't say games didn't matter, but they are not the end all. So I accept the argument that Brees had better year long stats. However, when your QB is using essentially 2 rookie receivers who weren't expected to be much (which is why Brady deserves a great deal of credit for last year with his rookie TE's) and has success with them, it does matter.

That said, i get your point about double standards. I would, however, suggest that arguing who is the best quarterback is different than arguing most valuable player.

Most have agreed that without Manning the colts would be a less than 500 team. I would think that could generally be said with most great QB's except there is evidence to the contrary. Further in 09, as I noted, the Saints won in spite of Brees. In 09, the colts never won in spite of Manning.

In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Maybe the guy who just spent time in jail for shooting himself shouldn't have been so arrogant to talk smack originally? Uh-huh. Funny how you leave out WHY Brady responded. Personally, I thought he made Burress look like an idiot for putting the Giants D on the defensive. It's a good thing Eli wasn't called for in the grasp which he should have been. Yes, Undies. Let's praise the arrogant thug and pretend that kind of mouthy, self absorbed thuggery is what we should focus on. lol I am pretty sure the world saw a glued football against a helmet as luck, not a choke. Some words get overused so badly and choke is one of them. If NE hadn't taken the lead in that game and just fizzled out, I might agree. No one will ever witnes a one handed catch off the back of a helmet like that again in the SB, let alone a regular game, with a player draped all over his back. Just as you can't make up your pathetic behavior here, you can't make up David Tyree's claim to fame in the NFL.Posted by RidingWithTheKing

Russ - I am not praising burress at all. Brady deserves all of the credit and criticism for the words that come out of his mouth. You never give Manning a pass for his words. So if Brady's going to put it out there, he becomes responsible for backing them up. He didn't. And the pats d did their job. They held the opposition to 17 points.

In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : So, Brady should have won the 2006 MVP? YOu never confirmed this.Posted by RidingWithTheKing

Why? he threw for 3500 yds 24 TDs and 12 Ints. Texas Patty won't tell us whether draft position or play on the field matters. If its draft position, Brady had a number of 1st and 2nd rounders running the ball and to throw to.

It can be both. Brady can be credited for working with not necessarily sub-par receivers that year, but new receivers that he did not have chemistry with. That said, Brady still had his dominant D on the other side of the ball.

I didn't say games didn't matter, but they are not the end all. So I accept the argument that Brees had better year long stats. However, when your QB is using essentially 2 rookie receivers who weren't expected to be much (which is why Brady deserves a great deal of credit for last year with his rookie TE's) and has success with them, it does matter. That said, i get your point about double standards. I would, however, suggest that arguing who is the best quarterback is different than arguing most valuable player. Most have agreed that without Manning the colts would be a less than 500 team. I would think that could generally be said with most great QB's except there is evidence to the contrary. Further in 09, as I noted, the Saints won in spite of Brees. In 09, the colts never won in spite of Manning. Posted by UD6

But you're using MVPs and pro-bowls as the centerpiece of the argument that Manning is the better QB. We know he isn't in stats (quality not longevity) and SBs.

Look, the thing that makes manning so special is he covers all facets. Championships - he has one. SB MVP - has one too. SB's - 2. Stats - he's got those - led the league in completions 3 times (2x without leading in attempts), completion % once, TD's 3x, Passer rating 3x, Active games streak, MVP's - 4, Team wins without a great defense.

Tom Brady is probably the best game manager in history. And it wasn't really until his defense started deteriorating that he was able to open things up. He's special. He's won 2 MVP's in basically 3 seasons, but has he won these at the expense of superbowl championships?

If Brady wins another SB, I think he becomes the greatest ever. If Manning wins another, there will be no question with everything else he has accomplished.

Babe, Look, the thing that makes manning so special is he covers all facets. Championships - he has one. SB MVP - has one too. SB's - 2. Stats - he's got those - led the league in completions 3 times (2x without leading in attempts), completion % once, TD's 3x, Passer rating 3x, Active games streak, MVP's - 4, Team wins without a great defense. Tom Brady is probably the best game manager in history. And it wasn't really until his defense started deteriorating that he was able to open things up. He's special. He's won 2 MVP's in basically 3 seasons, but has he won these at the expense of superbowl championships? If Brady wins another SB, I think he becomes the greatest ever. If Manning wins another, there will be no question with everything else he has accomplished. Posted by UD6

Brady's accomplishments are even more impressive. Three SB rings, two SBMVPs, two MVPs, one unanimous, a comeback player of the year award, the record for TDs in a season, the record for most passes w/o an INT, leading the greatest scoring offense in NFL history, quarterbacking the only undefeated 16 game season, Sportsman of the year (that had not been awarded to an NFL player for some 20 years), and numerous other playoff and regular season records. And all this - not in a dome.

Manning is a great one. But at this point he is overshadowed by Brady. If he can win another SB it will be closer, but he will still trail. And the tendency is going Brady's way. Hopefully neither will get hurt, and be able to perform at a high level for years to come. They are two special QBs.

(Oh, btw, Brady has also led the league in TD passes 3 times, same as Manning.)

Ah, so you listen to what these “experts” from Yahoo write.Very credible indeed.I read that link you provided – the one that ranked OL of the teams.And you’re right – the Pats DO have a better OL than the Colts.

However genius, it appears you missed this embarrassingly little detail - the stats were for the 2010 season only.

The point I was trying to make was that Manning’s success as a QB is very closely tied to his OL’s performance – more so than any QB.And you just unintentionally proved this through the article.Manning’s QB rating was 91.9 in 2010 - one of the lowest in his 14-year career.For a QB who apparently “makes his OL look better”, he surely didn’t rise to the occasion in 2010.

I looked at Manning’s stats and on those years he had his highest QB rating, he had the least amount of sacks.Conversely, the years he had the lowest rating, he received the most sacks.But why burden yourself poring through and analyzing stats when you can simply read these eye-opening articles written by the pulitzer-prize winning scribes at Yahoo.

But you’re right – I do form strong opinions to my detriment sometimes, so I sought out articles from the 2nd (to myself) best sources of info – the people that were at some point actively involved with football.A panel of 7 to be exact, which ranked Brady as #3 behind Unitas and Montana.Fyi, Manning got the mercy vote at #5.And yes, the panel graded based on several categories.It’s not quite the educational Yahoo sports you subscribe to but have a read anyway…

Dastardly- very good points about the correlation between Peytons best years and his OL performance. Also you get the award for funniest line I have read in this thread hahahha ; I sought out articles from the 2nd (to myself) best sources of info" lol I suspect alot of folks in this forum actually believe that about thesmselves but dont have the nuts to say it!

In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Brady's accomplishments are even more impressive. Three SB rings, two SBMVPs, two MVPs, one unanimous, a comeback player of the year award, the record for TDs in a season, the record for most passes w/o an INT, leading the greatest scoring offense in NFL history, quarterbacking the only undefeated 16 game season, Sportsman of the year (that had not been awarded to an NFL player for some 20 years), and numerous other playoff and regular season records. And all this - not in a dome. Manning is a great one. But at this point he is overshadowed by Brady. If he can win another SB it will be closer, but he will still trail. And the tendency is going Brady's way. Hopefully neither will get hurt, and be able to perform at a high level for years to come. They are two special QBs. (Oh, btw, Brady has also led the league in TD passes 3 times, same as Manning.)Posted by BabeParilli

With all due respect, I disagree.

Brady is the perfect game manager. When he wasn't required to win the game and could rely on his defense, he delivered. Since he's had to put the team on his back, he's demonstrated that he can do it (2 MVPs but he hasn't won a superbowl during that time. Manning's always had that pressure on him, and he's won an SB with it.

I give no credence to comeback player of the year award especially when compared to Manning. Manning's never missed a game. That will always be significantly more impressive.

As for the undefeated season Manning had no control over the possibility for his. Given that the colts were ahead in Indy vs. NYJ at the time Manning left in 09, I'd pretty much say he accomplished that, too.

As for the most TD's yep, Brady beat Manning, but it took him more game play to do it. Manning had 49 after 15 games and played the first series of the 16th and was pulled.

Then Manning has 4 MVPs, 1 SB MVP, 5 1st team All-Pros and 3 2nd team all pros. If Brady was so spectacular all of those years, why didn't he get some of these instead of Manning?

If Brady can win another or another MVP then I think he may overtake Manning - if Manning deteriorates.

Ultimately, we are splitting hairs and fortunate to have the QB's we have. Hopefully everyone realizes that my belief that Manning is better is not diminishing how great that I think Brady is.

In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Ah, so you listen to what these “experts” from Yahoo write. Very credible indeed. I read that link you provided – the one that ranked OL of the teams. And you’re right – the Pats DO have a better OL than the Colts. However genius, it appears you missed this embarrassingly little detail - the stats were for the 2010 season only. The point I was trying to make was that Manning’s success as a QB is very closely tied to his OL’s performance – more so than any QB. And you just unintentionally proved this through the article. Manning’s QB rating was 91.9 in 2010 - one of the lowest in his 14-year career. For a QB who apparently “makes his OL look better”, he surely didn’t rise to the occasion in 2010. I looked at Manning’s stats and on those years he had his highest QB rating, he had the least amount of sacks. Conversely, the years he had the lowest rating, he received the most sacks. But why burden yourself poring through and analyzing stats when you can simply read these eye-opening articles written by the pulitzer-prize winning scribes at Yahoo. But you’re right – I do form strong opinions to my detriment sometimes, so I sought out articles from the 2 nd (to myself) best sources of info – the people that were at some point actively involved with football. A panel of 7 to be exact, which ranked Brady as #3 behind Unitas and Montana. Fyi, Manning got the mercy vote at #5. And yes, the panel graded based on several categories. It’s not quite the educational Yahoo sports you subscribe to but have a read anyway… http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=4216436&page=1Posted by dastardly

uh oh, snarkiness right out of the gates, by dastardly.

yes, I do give credence to those who make a living covering the NFL. For whatever reason, their 40 hr (or more) work week covering it resonates more with me than your weekend, fan slanted, eyeball test, but what do I know, right?

But what I don't understand is why you use any stats at all when you say your eyeball test is the only measure of quality, or are you simply doing your best Mitt Romney impersonation? I've already pointed out that both Sporting News and the NFL Network have done article polling experts on who's the best. the SN article picked Manning first and the NFL Network listed Manning as #8 but had Brady @ #22.

So congrats to you for finding an article that had Brady ahead of Manning. I can do that too.

I noticed that you left my stat driven article alone. Why? Didn't you find the analysis compelling (compared to your eyeballs), or did it just not fit your perspective?

2010 - yes, the colts had an awful line, by all measures, but that wasn't nearly all of it. The colts also lost Clark, Collie and Gonzalez. Addai, Brown, and Garcon missed multiple games and Wayne was hampered by a hamstring most of the year. I am pretty sure that those injuries had something to do with Manning's passer rating as well, and yet he still got the team to the playoffs that included a defense that was both injured and ineffective. The fact is Manning's had an awful line since 08. Polian tried to address it through the draft but struck out. Yet Manning won MVP's in 08 and 09. I guess that really doesn't

UD6 every team has multiple injuries every year,but the team has to work around that and win.So saying that has no bearing on whos the best IMO.Another thing whos the best conversation and go ethier way depending on how you look at the states and awards received,so its a never ending debate no one will win.

Lippa, I completely agree about injuries. That's they way things go, but lets not suggest that they don't affect play.

Javarris James was an undrafted FA picked up by the colts, dropped, picked up by the pats, dropped then picked up again by the colts out of necessity. He played 10 games for the colts due to injuries to Addai, Brown, & Hart. They picked up Dominic Rhodes at the end of the season to deal with the other injuries and the ineffectiveness of James.

That left the pass catching duties to Reggie Wayne (who was hindered all season by a hamstring), Jacob Tamme, who got beat up all season, and Blair White.

Timing is a big part of the colts offense, so relative health is counted on to maintain that continuity that was developed over years of offseason work. When those players are out, then the continuity is lost. But some of that can be gained through practices during the week, except that all the guys left were playing hurt so they weren't practicing just to be ready for the following week's game.