Best skater of Kwan and Slutskaya era

Slutskaya

Kwan

neither, someone else

This isn't about what people want to see or personal preference. What I said are displays of skating skills and quality eecution which are relevant since we are discussing who is the better skater, not who people want to see.

Click to expand...

I'd say that things like "outspinning" and "outjumping" are more important in figure skating than who has the more beautiful ina bauer or split jump, though.

The closest example I can think of are their respective free programs from Worlds in 2001.

With Irina, all I saw were the jumps. With Michelle, I was caught up in the story she was presenting and didn't realise until the last triple lutz just how much content she'd packed into the performance.

I'd say that things like "outspinning" and "outjumping" are more important in figure skating than who has the more beautiful ina bauer or split jump, though.

Click to expand...

It's not even about who has the more beautiful of those field moves. It's the fact that she never showcased those elements that suggested a lack of total control and coordination between body and blade.

With Irina, all I saw were the jumps. With Michelle, I was caught up in the story she was presenting and didn't realise until the last triple lutz just how much content she'd packed into the performance.

Click to expand...

I didn't know that crossovers and easy steps sequences now count as technical content

It's not even about who has the more beautiful of those field moves. It's the fact that she never showcased those elements that suggested a lack of total control and coordination between body and blade.

Click to expand...

Which elements did she never showcase? Ina bauers, spread eagles, split jumps? She did all of those in various programs, although hers were not admittedly as pretty as Kwan which had also do with Irina's different body type and more athletic style.

With the same argumentation, I could also ask why Kwan never did a tano double axel or other tano jumps? Oh wait, that's because she did not have the same jumping ability, which singles figure skating is an important part of, and since Irina was clearly better here, it means that Irina must be the better skater between these two

If artistry, entertainment value, or the quality of the elements are not important, then Slutskaya was perhaps the very best of the era with Yoshie Onda a close second.

Click to expand...

Yep. True.

If you thought Kwan's routines were empty during this era, then what was Irina's routines? Negative balance? Anyway, Irina didn't really start to have content in-between her routines until COP but then her routines became devoid of any real musical interpretation or coherent choreography. Besides, having "prettier" skating elements doesn't mean it's only prettier but that a skater took time and energy to execute them properly, which is more difficult than doing it as a throw-away move.

Anyway, Irina had bigger jumps but she didn't always execute them the best way. Kwan's jumps weren't the biggest, but at Worlds, she was able to execute them with excellent flow and position out of the jumps. As for the spinning. Irina was a faster spinner and her layback had a better position. However, other than the Biellman, I found Kwan's to be better centered with more variety of position. People knocked Kwan for not being able to do a Double Biellman the way Irina could, but then nobody asked if Irina could do a double Y-spin the way Kwan did. Could Irina really do a proper arabesque position with a high leg position without the Biellman?

I'm not even sure that Irina Slutskaya had better jumps than Michelle Kwan ! Irina jumps higher than Michelle, but in term of jumping technique, Michelle's Flip, Salchow and Toe are, IMO, better than Irina's.
The Lutz is equal, both were on flat and Irina had a long, long, long entrance.
Axel and Loop are clearly better by Irina.
JMHO

I'm not even sure that Irina Slutskaya had better jumps than Michelle Kwan ! Irina jumps higher than Michelle, but in term of jumping technique, Michelle's Flip, Salchow and Toe are, IMO, better than Irina's.
The Lutz is equal, both were on flat and Irina had a long, long, long entrance.
Axel and Loop are clearly better by Irina.
JMHO

Click to expand...

If Michelle had better technique on the flip, then I wonder why Slutskaya had so much more spring and height on this jump. Irina also had a slightly truer take-off edge than Kwan on the lutz and more difficult footwork into the flip. Kwan's entrance into the lutz was also not really shorter than Irina's, she just disguised it better.

^Agreed. I don't know why some would even attempt to dispute the fact that Slutskaya was the better jumper. Kwan did many things better. Is it that hard to recognize that others did SOME things better than her? I also noticed that past 2000, Kwan's jumps really got worse in height and spring.

I think Kwans jumps started to suffer after the 03 season, but she was able to hold on due to her technique. Slutskaya did have more spring and power on her flip, Kwan had nicer positions, as well as sometimes better flow out of her jumps especially from 97-01.

^Agreed. I don't know why some would even attempt to dispute the fact that Slutskaya was the better jumper. Kwan did many things better. Is it that hard to recognize that others did SOME things better than her? I also noticed that past 2000, Kwan's jumps really got worse in height and spring.

Click to expand...

I agree. However, Kwan's jumps got bigger than ever during her Arutunian days even if her 3/3 capabilities seemed gone by then.

Of the two, definitely Michelle. Although there were so many other skaters of the era I loved as well - Laetitia Hubert, Tanja Szewczenko, Annie Bellemare, Nicole Bobek, Vanessa Gusmeroli, Maria Butyrskaya, Olga Markova..

^Agreed. I don't know why some would even attempt to dispute the fact that Slutskaya was the better jumper. Kwan did many things better. Is it that hard to recognize that others did SOME things better than her? I also noticed that past 2000, Kwan's jumps really got worse in height and spring.

Click to expand...

I like Michelle but many of her fans are a little crazy. I am sure she has some good fans too, but I havent encountered many of them yet. I am not here long enough to be familiar with FSU polls but I get the impression from reading comments in this thread Kwan fans would die if she ever lost a poll. Can someone more experienced tell me does Kwan typically win all FSU polls.

I remember joining the Michelle Kwan fan forum page once just to check it out and after an hour I never went back there. One of the nuttiest and most agressive fan bases in any sport probably.

I like Michelle but many of her fans are a little crazy. I am sure she has some good fans too, but I havent encountered many of them yet. I am not here long enough to be familiar with FSU polls but I get the impression from reading comments in this thread Kwan fans would die if she ever lost a poll. Can someone more experienced tell me does Kwan typically win all FSU polls.

I remember joining the Michelle Kwan fan forum page once just to check it out and after an hour I never went back there. One of the nuttiest and most agressive fan bases in any sport probably.

Michelle was not bad at jumping, spinning, or footwork, but Irina often did attempt more difficulty in these areas (the Biellmann on both feet; the footwork sequence all on one foot) and Slutskaya had better amplitude on her jumps and attempted more difficult triple+triples (3Lutz+3loop, 3Salchow+3loop) and did the 'tano 2Axel. Michelle had much more memorable programs though, IMO, and I think she was a more complete skater.

Overall, I preferred Michelle, but I liked Irina too. I actually liked their fellow countrywomen better though if I am being totally honest. If only Nicole Bobek and Maria Butyrskaya could have remained healthy, been mentally stronger, and delivered their full potential every time on the ice, we wouldn't even be having this Michelle/Irina debate.

You are right on Nicole. Sadly the judges saw Maria even in her prime as a third tier skater who could only win a bronze medal if she skated lights out and everyone else had a disaester (and even then sometimes not).

You are right on Nicole. Sadly the judges saw Maria even in her prime as a third tier skater who could only win a bronze medal if she skated lights out and everyone else had a disaester (and even then sometimes not).

Click to expand...

i don't think rewriting history ever does anyone any good. Neither Kwan nor irina had "disasters" when bobeck and Maria easily beat them in the 95 and 00 SPs respectively by simply out skating them and being rewarded by judges very willing to place them 1st. Is Maria the 1999 world bronze medalist? No, I didn't think so.

i don't think rewriting history ever does anyone any good. Neither Kwan nor irina had "disasters" when bobeck and Maria easily beat them in the 95 and 01 SPs respectively by simply out skating them and being rewarded by judges very willing to place them 1st. Is Maria the 1999 world bronze medalist? No, I didn't think so.

Click to expand...

Maria did not beat Michelle in 2001 SP. Maria skated a beautiful short program on par with her excellent winning 2000 Worlds SP and was inexplicably dumped to a lowly 5th place behind Slutskaya, Kwan, Nikidinov, and Hughes.

Kwan was not in her prime in 1995, but I conceded the OP was right on Nicole anyway. Nicole was her own worst enemy with her poor training tactics, laziness, changing coaches. She didnt even choke under pressure so much as show up unprepared most of the time. The judges were Marias worst enemy.

There are people who actually think the GPF means something other than $peedy's pet cheese fest.

Click to expand...

On paper, Slutskaya edges Kwan in GPFs by 4-1, but when we take into account that Kwan was robbed of the 01-02 GPF title, the record should actually be 3-2. Slutskaya's win at the GPF that year was outrageous, maybe even more so than when she beat Butyrskaya at 2000 NHK. Only four triples, sloppy presentation, and an incoherent program to Tosca. With this taken into account, Slutskaya's edge in GPFs is not that big.

On paper, Slutskaya edges Kwan in GPFs by 4-1, but when we take into account that Kwan was robbed of the 01-02 GPF title, the record should actually be 3-2. Slutskaya's win at the GPF that year was outrageous, maybe even more so than when she beat Butyrskaya at 2000 NHK. Only four triples, sloppy presentation, and an incoherent program to Tosca. With this taken into account, Slutskaya's edge in GPFs is not that big.

Click to expand...

Not to mention Kwan tends to peak at Worlds anyway. Kwan beat Slute hands down on their head-to-head matches at Worlds even if disregarding 2004 Worlds in which Slute was not in peak form (but if we do that we should probably also disregard 2005 Worlds during which Kwan was severely injured).

They're neck and neck in terms of overall package. My edge goes to Michelle simply because she was more beautiful to watch. Athleticism is important but at the end of the day Michelle has far too many masterpiece programs (exhibition and competition) in comparison

^Agreed. I don't know why some would even attempt to dispute the fact that Slutskaya was the better jumper. Kwan did many things better. Is it that hard to recognize that others did SOME things better than her? I also noticed that past 2000, Kwan's jumps really got worse in height and spring.

Click to expand...

Her lutz was better than ever in 2005, and her jumps had more height. Her flip had a beautiful exiting edge during that period