I'd assume the Valenar take all challengers, be it by land, sea, or air (as to the latter, see Dragon Issue #362 for info on the Kael Gryphaen). I'd expect their ships to be of the "fast and maneuverable" variety. Beyond that, I can't say I'd spent much time thinking about it before you asked.

As to other famous Tairnadal, I use the Dusk Riders and the Dagger of the Valaes Tairn (both from Forge of War) in our campaign.

The Valenar follow the path of one famous ancestor. I am not sure whether these all came from the rebellion against the giants (which is hinted to be the case) or that there are any new heroes admitted to the "pantheon" at a later date. I doubt there was much of a navy amongst the elves of Xen'drik, and Araenal is not known for their seafaring skills either. So personally I doubt the Valenar have much of a navy. In my campaigns they would simply pay house Lyrandor to be the coastguard and just use their own forces to vigilantly patrol the coastline.

I agree with Madfox that the Valaes Tairn are not especially comfortable on the water and that they have no reason to have developed a strong navy. However, they are an extremely militant culture, and I do not believe that they would leave an approach to their capital unguarded. I don't think they would try to match you ship to ship on the open sea; it's just not their environment. However, to reach Taer Valaestas, you have to head up the channel inland. I would expect to encounter a checkpoint barricade as you head north of the line of Jal Paeridor. At this point it follows the same principles as traveling by land. Show yourself to be humble and harmless and you'll go through unchallenged. Show aggression and they will respond in kind. Again, the navy isn't their strength. Which is while they'll use blockades and, in my opinion, primal power. They have close ties with Lyrandar, and let's not forget the thorny walls of Taer Valaestas were raised* by Siyal druids... and that Siyal druids who ride with warbands are often called "Stormcallers". I would think that rough water, rocks rising to tear at the hull, sudden bad weather - all of these things could be brought to bear. Should you counter these with your own druids and break the blockades, you've clearly identified yourself as a serious threat; they may not come after you on the water, but they'll certainly prepare to meet you on land.

The main point to me is that war is what Valenar is about. It's a beachhead and a deathtrap. They're waiting for Karrnath or someone else to finally snap and attack them... which means that one of their primary activities is anticipating paths of attack and readying ambushes. They don't care much about merchants and travelers and I'd consider airship or sea the safest way to get there - if you're on a Lyrandar vessal you likely won't be challenged. Otherwise, the fact that the are weak at sea shouldn't stop the Valenar from at least checking to make sure you don't pose a threat. They might not be as keen to start a fight, and might overlook a minor challenge they'd follow up on if the encounter happened on land - but they'll still be watchful for threats, at least as you get close to Taer Valaestas.

At least, that's my take.

* OK, technically they were raised by Maezan Shal and only restored by the modern Siyal. Still, Tairnadal druidic magic at work.

Talking about the Valenar ancestors, most are from the Rebellion age, are there any from a later stage? How do you become one? Could a PC potentially become one?

There are a few from later ages, such as Maezan Shal. How you do become one? By performing deeds that people will still speak of in twenty thousand years. By becoming a legend, so that thousands of later warriors will be inspired by your tales and seek to live up to them. In essence, by overshadowing the ancestor you originally sought to emulate - ceasing to simply live up to their tales and instead inspiring others with your own.

So in a 4E sense, certainly the kind of thing that would make a good epic destiny. But it's all about the legend. If no one knows who you are, it doesn't matter what you did. The Tairnadal honor their ancestors by emulating their deeds; if no one knows what your deeds were, then you're not joining the ranks. So go out and create some legends.

Tied to this, it's worth noting that there are Valenar ancestors that people DON'T want to get assigned. Legendary madmen. Legendary traitors. They are followed because despite their deeds being less than ideal, they are still legends and part of history. So again, it's about people knowing about what you did and feeling obligated to preserve it. Now, bear in mind, I'd expect the legendary traitor to have some redeeming qualities - he was the finest assassin ever seen, a master of poisons and stealth - and thus his descendants would be valued for these traits. But he also betrayed his brother at the battle of Coerlan Ford, and in a similar situation, one who follows his path would be expected to do the same. If that's you - and remember, the ancestor chooses the elf, not the other way around - do you betray your brother, as the legends indicate? Or turn against the past? Because that might be ANOTHER way to create your own legend - starting from the point of another, but than becoming the greatest assassin the Tairnadal ever saw and one who NEVER betrayed a friend... though in the short term that behavior will be seen as betrayal of your sacred duty to honor and emulate the ancestor.

Well they got from Xen`drik to Aerenal. So some of them know how to build ships. Maybe some of them where pirates, raiding the giants trading vessels ect. With some modifications the ships from: "Ships of the Elves" from Mongoose Publishing could fit the Valenar. Some of them atleast.

And most ships to Valenar dock inn Pylas Maradal?

More recent the lot of them arrived via some kind of navy from Aerenal...From Shae Thoridor...

This has me wondering, how would the Undying Court react if one (or more) of the Five Nations attacked Aerenal, but focused completely on the northern steppes against the Tairnadal? Completely avoided attacking or even entering any non-Tairnadal territory, but sought to occupy the Tairnadal territory to cut Valenar off from supplies and replacement soldiers.

Would the Undying Court oppose this action, even though the Tairnadal are the ones who provoked it? I realize they are two seperate cultures, and the Court has no real control over the Tairnadal, but the Court has completely ignored the people the Valenar are killing in Khorvaire, so would they care if the Five Nations retaliated on Aerenal itself?

I was just thinking that it might be an interesting way to deal with the Valenar problem. The navies of the Five Nations outclass the navies of the Valenar, and the Lyrandar likely wouldn't intervene to aid the Valenar, so the Five Nations could blockade the Elves in Valenar and keep the majority of their best warriors stuck on Khorvaire while they attack the Tairnadal civilian populace and base of supplies/recruits/horses/what have you.

Of course there are still strong warriors protecting their homeland, the blockade can't completely stop the Valenar from making their way back, and they know the northern steppes of Aerenal far better than their beach head in Khorvaire, but its still a good strategy to employ. The majority of the best Tairnadal warriors are in Valenar, so attack their home where they're weaker. When they attempt to move their armies back to Aerenal, attack them at sea where you hold the advantage. The best they could do to counter attack on Khorvaire is lead an attack in Karrnath, because the Mournland blocks their way west, but then they're giving up their biggest advantage and fighting an enemy that excels in direct combat.

Its not a fool-proof plan, but you could very well put them in a position where they'll accept terms of surrender that require them to leave Khorvaire and return to Aerenal. Otherwise, the Wizards of the Five Nations will start burning down their cities and families. You'll still take big losses, because even without the warriors in Valenar, the Tairnadal are Grade A Badasses, but its going to work out better than just attacking Valenar itself where you'll have to fight an army of Rambos in the middle of the desert.

The only big issue I see, aside how terrible the fighting in Aerenal will be against the Tairnadal on their own soil (shudder), is the Undying Court opposing the Five Nations. The Court no doubt has little interest in Humans claiming portions of Aerenal for themselves, but if its clear that the Five Nations are just trying to get the Tairnadal to stop killing people in Khorvaire, will the Court really stand in the way? Because if they do then I swear I'll kill the crap out of all them too.

Anyway, what do the rest of you think the Court would do if the humans/goblinoids (both?) attacked the Tairnadal in Aerenal? Are they going to say "Nope, this ain't happening, we're not having any foreign powers occupying our contient." or will they say "You Tairnadal guys started this crap, you deal with it." Third option?

*I consider it implicit that the Court will of course oppose any action outside the Tairnadal territory, whether they care about the war between the Five Nations and the Tairnadal or not.*

I'm not saying its an instant win button, I'm saying its a better option than fielding an army into Valenar itself. The Elves fully expect to fight there, they are literally turning it into one mass grave for the armies of the Five Nations. Throwing an army against their borders is just hitting them exactly where they want you to, and where they have their strongest warriors.

So instead, play to your strengths: your superior navy, superior numbers, and your ability to bypass your enemies strongest position to instead hit their civilian population.

The Tairnadal are far from helpless in Aerenal, but they are also weaker there than in Valenar. The goal here isn't even to occupy it, it is to force the Tairnadal to leave Khorvaire without losing thousands of lives in the process. They might be keen to honor their ancestors in a great battle, but if you threaten to murder their children then they'll back down.

Very, very cruel, absolutely. But it will save countless human and elven lives that would be lost in a straight war on Khorvaire. If I'm leading the armies of my nation against these aggressors, I'm not going to fight exactly where they want me to, and I'm certainly not going to avoid attacking their civilian populations, as they have granted my people no such leniency.

The biggest obstacle is the rest of the Elves on Aerenal. Remember that most of the population follows the Undying Court and the Sibling Kings, and trying to win a war with Valenar isn't important enough to start a second conflict with the Aereni. I'd just like an opinion of whether they would oppose the Five Nations attacking the Tairnadal at home, and if so, why.

I'm curious why you think the Tairndal are weaker in Aerenal then Valenar. The Tairndal have been prepping Valenar as a battleground for a few decades, they've had several centuries to do it in Aerenal. Plus Aerenal has been hardened against dragon attacks, after that, a little amphibious assault force from Khorvaire is going to seem like small potatoes.

Also, I see Lyrander more then willing to step into stopping the Tairndal leaving Khorvaire. Remember, Lyrander runs all the petty day to day ruling the nation things that the Valenar can't be bothered to do. They'er building a base of operations there. The Viceroy sits at the King's right hand. She might even become queen. Lyrander is very invested in keeping the Tairndal in Valenar. At least until there is enough Khoravar there to make it a Khoravar nation, then the Tairndal can feel free to leave.

Lyrander would probably see a sea attack as a win-win. Not only do they get money by working as privateers/mercenaries/advisors, Lyrander also gets more prestige with the Valenar, getting them one step closer to their Koravar nation.

Because they've sent their best warriors to Khorvaire. That's where the action is, that's where they think they're going to get their great battle, that is where they've positioned their army. I am not saying that their Aerenal home is undefended, or that it is an easy target, but the great majority of their capable warriors are on Khorvaire preparing for the conflict that will let them bring honor to their ancestors.

You have two choices, you can fight their strongest and largest army in an area they are specifically prepping for war, or you can hit where they do not expect you, where their defenses aren't meant to repel massed infantry (remember, dragons are flying murder machines), a target that they actually care about that can force them to negotiate.

Yes, there are many deadly warriors still in Aerenal. Their cities are not defenseless, they will not go down easily. But the point is to force them to leave Khorvaire, not to annex the northern plains of Aerenal. I honestly think you're over-estimating how powerful the Tairnadal are. They are very, very good, but they can't send all their best warriors to another continent and simultaneously keep their Aerenal land impenetrable. They have divided their assets, and one position got the greater share. It stands to reason that the other position is therefore weaker. It is weaker because they don't think they need to defend it, the only threat to Aerenal in the history of the Elven culture has been the dragons. They think that if the dragons attack that they can safely retreat from Khorvaire to defend their home, but an attack from the Five Nations is not something they're expecting.

They've set up a nice little killing field in Valenar, and they're expecting their enemy to walk into it. The entire point of this idea is to subvert their plans and force them to fight on your terms instead.

And the Lyrandar are not powerful enough to openly subvert the Five Nations. They are still very much a business, they have many assets throughout the Five Nations. Do you really think they're just going to give all that up to gain some brownie points with the Valenar? If anything they should be happy the Tairnadal would be leaving, because they already have the administrative run of the nation. With the Elves gone they wouldn't have to kiss anyone's ass, they'd be the ones in power by default. They could just tell the leaders of the Five Nations that there will be a 'transition' period as they help train the new administration of the region, all conveniently half-elves, and do not intend to actually claim the land as their own.

Now, thinking about it some more....Lyrander isn't the repository of all ships in Khorvaire. A lot of them deal with Lyrander only because they protect from "weather damage."

Now, Orien has a bone to pick with Lyrander. If they helped bankroll a flotilla of Lhazaar ships to get a Khorvairan expeditionary force to Tairnadal, well, the EF would have enough sealift power to keep a campaign going, and prevent the bulk of the Valenar warriors from rushing home to defend.

Good point Areleth, I see we differ in our perception of where most of the Tairndal army is. In my mind, they learned their lesson the last time they overextended theselves into Khorvaire and the dragons made them pay for that mistake. So most of their army is still in Aerenal making sure no one threatens their kids, which is why they aren't more aggressive. Last time the went to war with an empire that stretched across the entire continent, and now they're mainly raiding individual nations. But I can definetely see those crazy elves being so caught up in wanting glory they send a majority of their forces to Valenar.

A small point about the flying murder machines... several of them have swim speeds and can breathe underwater, so chances are the elves would have some signifigant water defenses. I also don't see dragons being so predictable as to always attack from the air, they're just to smart. Also, side question, have the dragons ever used the Seren barbarians as part of their attacks? Considering one of the possibilities of why the dragons are attacking the elves is to prepare them, attacking them with ground forces seems to be in order.

Another thing to consider if attacking Aerenal by sea: you have to get there first, as in before the other guy. You have to gather your army, gather your fleet, then head to Aerenal. Such a large military buildup would be noticed by House Phiarlan. I can't imagine Aerenal or the Tairndal haven't paid Phiarlan to give them advanced notice of military action against their continent. Forgetting the House of Shadows, the Matriarch and Queen Aurala of Aundair regularly get together and share intelligence. So the Valenar know your sailing for Aerenal and and can get Lyrander, who has the fastest ships on the sea, to get them home to meet you.

And then there's the problem of taking and holding Valenar after the Tairndal left but before they came back. The Khunan think the Valenar are better then the "thrones" they had before. One story has them massacring the Cyrans who fled the Mourning. They might make a militia to push back whoever came to take Valenar after the elves left. They won't see themselves as being liberated but as being invaded. Aided by a few Tairndal advisors they could be deadly. And whats to stop Darguul from taking over Valenar once the elves leave? Getting rid of the elves might just make the goblins more of a headache.

Good point Areleth, I see we differ in our perception of where most of the Tairndal army is. In my mind, they learned their lesson the last time they overextended theselves into Khorvaire and the dragons made them pay for that mistake. So most of their army is still in Aerenal making sure no one threatens their kids, which is why they aren't more aggressive. Last time the went to war with an empire that stretched across the entire continent, and now they're mainly raiding individual nations. But I can definetely see those crazy elves being so caught up in wanting glory they send a majority of their forces to Valenar.

A small point about the flying murder machines... several of them have swim speeds and can breathe underwater, so chances are the elves would have some signifigant water defenses. I also don't see dragons being so predictable as to always attack from the air, they're just to smart. Also, side question, have the dragons ever used the Seren barbarians as part of their attacks? Considering one of the possibilities of why the dragons are attacking the elves is to prepare them, attacking them with ground forces seems to be in order.

Another thing to consider if attacking Aerenal by sea: you have to get there first, as in before the other guy. You have to gather your army, gather your fleet, then head to Aerenal. Such a large military buildup would be noticed by House Phiarlan. I can't imagine Aerenal or the Tairndal haven't paid Phiarlan to give them advanced notice of military action against their continent. Forgetting the House of Shadows, the Matriarch and Queen Aurala of Aundair regularly get together and share intelligence. So the Valenar know your sailing for Aerenal and and can get Lyrander, who has the fastest ships on the sea, to get them home to meet you.

And then there's the problem of taking and holding Valenar after the Tairndal left but before they came back. The Khunan think the Valenar are better then the "thrones" they had before. One story has them massacring the Cyrans who fled the Mourning. They might make a militia to push back whoever came to take Valenar after the elves left. They won't see themselves as being liberated but as being invaded. Aided by a few Tairndal advisors they could be deadly. And whats to stop Darguul from taking over Valenar once the elves leave? Getting rid of the elves might just make the goblins more of a headache.

Not all the great warriors of the Tairnadal are in Khorvaire, because not all of them believe their ancestors can be best honored there. Like those who follow ancestors who were great dragon-slayers, or the Druids who tend their horses, and possibly those whose ancestors were famed for training great heroes or something. But for those whose ancestors can be honored by the war in Khorvaire, it is a religious imperative that they do so, which is why I think such a large portion of their warriors are in Khorvaire.

And as to the Lyrandar or Phiralan tipping them off, I don't care. The entire point is to force them to alter their plans. If they leave Khorvaire without you having to fight them, then that's really the best solution, because then you don't have to lose any of your men fighting in Aerenal. This entire strategy revolves around the fact that the Five Nations outclass the Valenar at sea. Using that as leverage to force them to leave the continent is the idea, and if the threat of attacking Aerenal is alone enough to do that, then that's even better.

The Darguul aren't a problem either, because their navy is as bad as the Valenar and they can't move large groups across the Mournland. Once the Valenar have left the continent, they won't be able to return without facing your navy, a fight they can't win. So you can do whatever with the Khunan, because I frankly don't care if they just govern themselves or if the Cyrans settle there or anything, the endgame here is using a superior navy to out-maneuver the Valenar and force them to leave without a massive war.

And no, I do not believe the Lyrandar will openly support the Valenar over the Five Nations, because the Valenar aren't going to risk anything to protect them. It is an alliance of convenience for the Valenar, and Lyrandar can't risk their business tanking in the Five Nations.

The idea of Orien playing off Lyrandar's support of Valenar is pretty good though. They don't even have to bank-roll a fleet for the Five Nations, they could just as easily hire fleets of Lhaazar Pirates to attack the Lyrandar fleets carrying the Tairnadal. Do massive damage to your rivals material resources, and gain the grateful thanks of the Five Nations for doing your civic duty and knowing that the place of the Dragonmarked Houses is to serve the Five Nations, not ally yourself against them. Orien could reap a huge benefit out of this if the Lyrandar decide to support the Tairnadal.

I guess I'm having troubles seeing all of the 5 nations wanting Valenar gone. They are mostly attacking the Talenta Plains, Q'barra, and Karrnath. Now if Karrnath attacked Aerenal, they would be opening themselves up to attack by another nation, like say Thrane. Plus they wouild be attacking (in a roundabout way) one of the signatories of the Thronehold Treaty that Kaius fought so hard for. The risks seem to out weigh the benefits.

Now if, let's say, Prince Oargev in New Cyre has decided he's sick of living in Breland and wants some of old Cyre back, and taking back it back from those traitorous elves is icing on the cake. He contacts the remnants of the Cyre fleet that are in the Lhazaar Principilaties to get them in on the action and to start looking for more ships. Oargev goes to Kaius, who obviously wants the elves gone, and gets him to bankroll the mission. Karrnath gets rid of the elves, gains an alliance with New Cyre, and they're not sacrificing any troops. Win-win for him. So where do you get your invasion force? The other player who wants the elves gone, the Talenta Halflings. I just see amphibious assault vehicles opening up and halflings mounted on dinosaurs pouring out and I get all happy inside. That actually kind of sounds like a fun little campaign of setting all that up for some PC's who are interested in getting rid of the Valenar.

Of course, you have just outfoxed and proven yourself a worthy foe to the most elite army on the planet. There is absolutely no way that will come back to bite you in the @$$.

I guess I'm having troubles seeing all of the 5 nations wanting Valenar gone. They are mostly attacking the Talenta Plains, Q'barra, and Karrnath. Now if Karrnath attacked Aerenal, they would be opening themselves up to attack by another nation, like say Thrane. Plus they wouild be attacking (in a roundabout way) one of the signatories of the Thronehold Treaty that Kaius fought so hard for. The risks seem to out weigh the benefits.

Now if, let's say, Prince Oargev in New Cyre has decided he's sick of living in Breland and wants some of old Cyre back, and taking back it back from those traitorous elves is icing on the cake. He contacts the remnants of the Cyre fleet that are in the Lhazaar Principilaties to get them in on the action and to start looking for more ships. Oargev goes to Kaius, who obviously wants the elves gone, and gets him to bankroll the mission. Karrnath gets rid of the elves, gains an alliance with New Cyre, and they're not sacrificing any troops. Win-win for him. So where do you get your invasion force? The other player who wants the elves gone, the Talenta Halflings. I just see amphibious assault vehicles opening up and halflings mounted on dinosaurs pouring out and I get all happy inside. That actually kind of sounds like a fun little campaign of setting all that up for some PC's who are interested in getting rid of the Valenar.

That's a fair point and an interesting solution, but I was honestly not concerned with the details, just the strategy itself. In my mind, the navy of any of the Five Nations is superior to the Tairnadal, the only real recourse the Elves have in open water being the Lyrandar. The Aereni are a different story, they have an excellent navy, which is why their involvement was the lynchpin in this plan. If they oppose the Five Nations, then this strategy is bust because it'd be easier to just attack Valenar.

But, getting the involvement of Five Nations was just assumed in this plan, because PCs exist and for them nothing is unpossible.

Of course, you have just outfoxed and proven yourself a worthy foe to the most elite army on the planet. There is absolutely no way that will come back to bite you in the @$$.

An elite army with no navy to carry them, they might as well be on the moon.

Unless they can convince the Aereni to attack Khorvaire. The Five Nations vs. Aerenal. My mouth is watering.

but I was honestly not concerned with the details, just the strategy itself.

My bad, I get obssessed over the details. Especially in Eberron, where everything is so interconnected I start wondering "Yeah, the strategy would work, but would it be feasible? What are the long term ramifications? Who would be stabbing who in the back? Would the Silver Flame start another crusade?"

Now on how Aerenal would react, I think it depends on how you handled your invasion. Since the Aerenal Elves and the Tairndal don't share a religion or a government, they seem to be seperate nations on the island. So as long as you told Aerenal that you were there to get the Tairndal out of Valenar, they might just beef up border security and let you and the Tairndal have your little war. If you landed you army without letting them know, they might see you as establishing a beachhead for a larger invasion of the island. Diplomacy would be key.

That said, the island has a long history of being attacked by flying murder machines, so the two nations might have a formal or informal defense agreement for the island. So the Aerenal don't care about what the Tairndal do on Khorvaire, they will rain arcane destruction on anyone who sets foot on their island. Since I tend to view elves as arrogant pricks who don't care about anyone but themselves, I tend to go with them kicking anyone off their island. Because even though the Tairndal live on that corner, its called Aerenal and its their island, so humans can stay off their lawn, thank you very much.

My bad, I get obssessed over the details. Especially in Eberron, where everything is so interconnected I start wondering "Yeah, the strategy would work, but would it be feasible? What are the long term ramifications? Who would be stabbing who in the back? Would the Silver Flame start another crusade?"

Yeah, that's a hallmark of some of us. Which is why you get multipage threads discussing some aspects of it.

My bad, I get obssessed over the details. Especially in Eberron, where everything is so interconnected I start wondering "Yeah, the strategy would work, but would it be feasible? What are the long term ramifications? Who would be stabbing who in the back? Would the Silver Flame start another crusade?"

That's fine, its fun to flesh out the details and consequences of things. That's why Eberron is so much fun. But I was working from the point of view that one or more of the Five Nations had finally been driven to confront the Valenar (maybe they did something truly horrible, like destroyed a major city) and was just working out how they could best go about the war. Picking on the Valenar's major weaknesses seemed like the most obvious idea. Which is part of the reason I support the notion that the greater majority of their warriors are in Khorvaire. If they've assembled a force powerful enough to challenge one of the Five Nations in Valenar, then they must be weak somewhere else. I put the Tairnadal as a military force roughly on par with one of the Five Nations, they can't divide themselves and not suffer for it.

Now on how Aerenal would react, I think it depends on how you handled your invasion. Since the Aerenal Elves and the Tairndal don't share a religion or a government, they seem to be seperate nations on the island. So as long as you told Aerenal that you were there to get the Tairndal out of Valenar, they might just beef up border security and let you and the Tairndal have your little war. If you landed you army without letting them know, they might see you as establishing a beachhead for a larger invasion of the island. Diplomacy would be key.

That's what I assume. Aslong as the war doesn't spill over into their territory then they don't care. But if it seems like the Humans are trying to actually conquer part of Aerenal then they're going to intervene because they don't need noisy neighbors ruining their island.

That said, the island has a long history of being attacked by flying murder machines, so the two nations might have a formal or informal defense agreement for the island. So the Aerenal don't care about what the Tairndal do on Khorvaire, they will rain arcane destruction on anyone who sets foot on their island. Since I tend to view elves as arrogant pricks who don't care about anyone but themselves, I tend to go with them kicking anyone off their island. Because even though the Tairndal live on that corner, its called Aerenal and its their island, so humans can stay off their lawn, thank you very much.

But this is more interesting. I like the idea of The Last War 2 being a conflict between Aerenal and the Five Nations.

Well i still dont think they call pull of an attack on North Aerenal. Even all the Lhazaar combined have only some 50-60 ships inn the dragonshards. Could they carry enough troops to defeat the home army of the Valenar. I dont think so. In my opinion none of the five nations reign the 10 seas like some of the powers in our world did..Or am i wrong?

But i see where your coming from, hit them inn there weak spot. If they have one.

Last time they pulled back to defend against the dragons. So maybe it could be easier to stir up some dragons again? If Breland or Karrnath could invade with undead or warforged that could out-skirmish the valenar clans at the border and mass up on Taer Valaestas...Valenar is Huge compared to its 70.000 ppl living there...1/3 of that in the capital.

Well i still dont think they call pull of an attack on North Aerenal. Even all the Lhazaar combined have only some 50-60 ships inn the dragonshards. Could they carry enough troops to defeat the home army of the Valenar. I dont think so. In my opinion none of the five nations reign the 10 seas like some of the powers in our world did..Or am i wrong?

But i see where your coming from, hit them inn there weak spot. If they have one.

Last time they pulled back to defend against the dragons. So maybe it could be easier to stir up some dragons again? If Breland or Karrnath could invade with undead or warforged that could out-skirmish the valenar clans at the border and mass up on Taer Valaestas...Valenar is Huge compared to its 70.000 ppl living there...1/3 of that in the capital.

Isran

Well, from where I stand, I simply do not accept this idea that the Valenar are so strong on every front. It is... irritating, to my sensibilities. Its that lingering resentment to 'Elven Superiority' where they're always better than you at everything because they're Elves.

However, Hellcow weighed in on the original question, and suggested that the Undying Court would oppose Human intervention on Aerenal. I can understand their reasoning, and it makes this plan largely worthless as hitting the Valenar from the rear isn't worth starting a war with the Aereni.

I am considering terrorist attacks against the lot of them though. Something to force the Valenar into action. The greatest strength of the Valenar is their defensive position right now. So if I can get them angry by 'bombing' their cities then maybe I can put them on an irrational path of attacking me (lets assume I am Karrnath) where I can hold the advantage. I'm still going to use my navy to hold them on the continent though. I'm going to kill them all, no survivors and no retreat. The rivers of Khorvaire will run red with Elven blood.

I'm also going to burn down some Aereni cities to spite the Undying Court for allowing their allies to murder innocent people. They care nothing for Human life, I shall reciprocate.

Maybe I will ally myself with Vol to see this come to pass. A war between Aerenal and the Five Nations could be a fantastic campaign, and Vol is my best bet for dealing with the power of the Undying Court. With a few powerful artifacts, maybe I could even destroy the Court itself. It'll end horribly, but atleast I can have my grossly unproportional vengeance.

I think I have a new villain for a future campaign!

First time I've actually thought of a big bad that wasn't already established in the setting. I feel giggly.

I am considering terrorist attacks against the lot of them though. Something to force the Valenar into action. The greatest strength of the Valenar is their defensive position right now. So if I can get them angry by 'bombing' their cities then maybe I can put them on an irrational path of attacking me (lets assume I am Karrnath) where I can hold the advantage. I'm still going to use my navy to hold them on the continent though. I'm going to kill them all, no survivors and no retreat. The rivers of Khorvaire will run red with Elven blood.

I'm also going to burn down some Aereni cities to spite the Undying Court for allowing their allies to murder innocent people. They care nothing for Human life, I shall reciprocate.

Maybe I will ally myself with Vol to see this come to pass. A war between Aerenal and the Five Nations could be a fantastic campaign, and Vol is my best bet for dealing with the power of the Undying Court. With a few powerful artifacts, maybe I could even destroy the Court itself. It'll end horribly, but atleast I can have my grossly unproportional vengeance.

I think I have a new villain for a future campaign!

First time I've actually thought of a big bad that wasn't already established in the setting. I feel giggly.

That's the wonderful thing about DM creativity. If you have a player who has read ALL THE THINGS, and metagame with that knowledge....pulling out a DM-created thing will stymie them hardcore.

I am not saying the valenar have a great superior navy, just that they might have some naval forces. Small fast ships to raid Q`barra. Patroling the Redwater river, maybe the meet the Horrors up river too And for transport to and from Aerenal. But the others dont have enough navy either, there are to few ships...(inn my opinion)

But if you wanna hurt the Valanar why not start with giving the humans a new Khunan? or bringing cyrans back..or both. While doing that support goblin raids on Pylas Maradal?

I am not saying the valenar have a great superior navy, just that they might have some naval forces. Small fast ships to raid Q`barra. Patroling the Redwater river, maybe the meet the Horrors up river too And for transport to and from Aerenal. But the others dont have enough navy either, there are to few ships...(inn my opinion)

But if you wanna hurt the Valanar why not start with giving the humans a new Khunan? or bringing cyrans back..or both. While doing that support goblin raids on Pylas Maradal?

Apolcolypse Now..

Isran

Actually, my current villainous plot has the reclamation of Cyre as the end goal. Blind vengeance against the Elves for their actions is a necessary means to an end. A very satisfying means to an end, but not the point.

Stage attacks against major cities in the Five Nations using an eldritch device and DM granted plot armor (this is a villain's point of view here), make it seem that the Valenar are responsible. In 'response' to this, stage similar attacks in cities throughout Aerenal. Make both sides eager to take vengeance on each other, but hit the Tairnadal harder and in strictly civilian areas until they are driven to find who is responsible. Then let it 'slip' that your organization is staged in Karrnath. Push the Tairnadal into directly attacking Karrnath in an effort to find you and stop the attacks against their home. This will spur the Five Nations (who all had several cities attacked by 'Valenar' saboteurs) to rally together and crush the Valenar. Once the Valenar are defeated, the Cyrans can settle the land the Elves took. There will be considerable animosity between the Khunan and the Cyrans, but forces maintained by each of the Five Nations to hold the land against a possible counterattack from Aerenal will keep peace in the area until the differences between the two peoples can be settled.

As part of plan, possibly frame Valenar for attacks against Khunan villages. While they will not accept the rule of the 'Thrones' again, turning them against the Elves is still a major blow to integrity of Tairnadal beachhead.

For extra fun: Vol, the Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, and possibly the LoBster will all be maneuvering to take advantage of the chaos, and the PCs attentions will be focused on counter-acting these schemes. This serves the dual purpose of obscuring the true source of the attacks (as they will naturally assume one of the 'Big Players' is responsible once they start encountering their agents) and keeping them from interfering without actually devoting resources away from the Diabolical Plan. The long-term consequences of weakening Aerenal's warrior population and diverting the resources of the Five Nations will likely be catastrophic, but PCs exist and they'll fix it. At least the people of Cyre will have a home again.

Even better, this hypothetical big bad who's dragging a continent into war is Prince Oargev, and the eldritch devices he employs create miniature 'Mournings'. He constructed these devices with resources the PCs acquired for him at the start of the campaign. Learning how to reverse the effects of these 'Mournings', at least on a small scale, Oargev will endear the Cyran people in the eyes of the Five Nations by helping to heal their cities. Pinning the cause of the Mourning on the Valenar will easily unite the Five Nations in seeking their destruction, and possibly stay the hand of the Undying Court as they will need the secret of reversing the effects on their own cities. It does raise a problem with how exactly he can claim that the Valenar are responsible if the same thing is happening to their cities, but he can say that he reverse engineered the device from wreckage recovered from Metrol. Or something to that effect. Who really cares as long as he's going to help restore your cities.

Might be too obvious of a villain though, give the mini-Mourning angle. Maybe just toss that out and stick with something more conventional. And make the Big Bad a non-established NPC. Just one of the last Cyran nobles (must explain financial resources) who wants to give his people a new home and seek justice against the Valenar for their actions. Like an evil Batman.

And, at some point, the PCs must arrive in a villainous lair to stop the mass activation of these devices, only to be told they are thirty-five minutes too late.