AuthorTopic: Bullying as a substitute for Argument (Read 30533 times)

Not sure where this belongs, but since I've seen dozens of posts in this particular board, I put it here.

A statement to the effect of "Show me your photos" is not an argument and in it's basest form is nothing short of bullying. It is a tactic to intimidate in lieu of actual argument. Photographic samples that prove, reinforce or refute an argument are always helpful, but that is not usually how these statements are made. It is usually a blanket ultimatum intended to shut down debate from a particular poster.

Being a master craftsman in some area does not always mean knowing the technical details. Nor does knowing the details make one an expert. Some details are unknown or unknowable and through experience we accept the cause and effect relationship that exists even if we don't fully understand the nature of the cause and effect. This drives people like me nuts because I always want to know why. But while an craftsman would like to know why, and may continue to strive to know why to better exploit the situation, in his execution he merely needs to know that it is.

Agreed, on the internet not only is there a temptation to be rude, but one has to be careful not to write something that could be interpreted as rude by someone who doesn't see your facial expression / tone of voice and doesn't know your writing style.

On the other hand, sometimes people really want to see exactly what your problem shot looks like. Valid - am I the reader missing something? OK, so I am a huge geek. I want to learn technique and the mechanics/ science behind the image, as well as how to create a meaningful image. I tend to look for geekery in the equipment fora and aesthetics and philosophy in the image fora. But sometimes, as in the current dynamic resolution thread, actual images are really helpful.

Let's add a little perspective to this: Should a football coach (be that American also) or a boxing coach be able to play the sport well to prove its worth? Or are the art critics renowned for their work? Just saying.

Call me fickle but I tend to garner an appreciation of visual creatives by looking at what it is they do rather than reading what it is they say.

That is the best way to judge skill of the craft, but almost the worst way of judging technical competence. You might be dazzled by a wonderful photograph, but the photograph may not in any way demonstrate the technical point being discussed.

I judge myself as mediocre as a photographer because I don't have a great eye, but even I produce a great photograph from time to time. Neither has anything to do with technical knowledge. I can show you a poor example or a great example and you would draw 2 different conclusions.

Like I said, photographic evidence is great and might be the only way to get help on a particular issue. Things like "Why did I get this..." a photo attached.

Not sure how folks can be accused of bullying by not using harsh, cruel and derogatory epithets similar to what's been read on twitter, YouTube and other not so well known enthusiast sites and comment sections. I've never seen that kind of bullying here or on any other photography related site.

So I'm not clearly understanding what your issues with folks asking anyone to post photos to support a point of argument or provide clarity as a way to advance understanding of the photographic process.

In my 15 years discussing digital imaging on various forums I do find some folks don't like to be called out online to avoid feeling humiliated in the cyber world throngs of millions of faceless, anonymous lurkers that banter around ideas like a "blind man's bluff" convention when all they're doing is trying to get more newer information so it can be found online for anyone searching the internet.

I've been in discussions where I've been proven to have been wrong, misunderstood or just flat out misinformed where I'ld expect to feel humiliated like I've seen others respond accordingly but for some reason that feeling doesn't register with my ego when it happens to me. I'm left asking how come I'm not pissed off? That's just weird which makes the internet for me so damn interesting from a sociological aspect.

I look at communicating in forums on the internet similar to prayer, except instead of speaking to a faceless entity that doesn't speak back, there are these characters that appear to know a lot of stuff they're passionate about to the point they lose their compassion for the folks they're attempting to enlighten, advise or just exchange new information.

I just learn to roll with it by walking away from the computer or smartphone, take a walk and return to the discussion with fresh cup of coffee and "fuh-gettuh-bout-it".

Not sure how folks can be accused of bullying by not using harsh, cruel and derogatory epithets similar to what's been read on twitter, YouTube and other not so well known enthusiast sites and comment sections. I've never seen that kind of bullying here or on any other photography related site.

So I'm not clearly understanding what your issues with folks asking anyone to post photos to support a point of argument or provide clarity as a way to advance understanding of the photographic process.

In my 15 years discussing digital imaging on various forums I do find some folks don't like to be called out online to avoid feeling humiliated in the cyber world throngs of millions of faceless, anonymous lurkers that banter around ideas like a "blind man's bluff" convention when all they're doing is trying to get more newer information so it can be found online for anyone searching the internet.

I've been in discussions where I've been proven to have been wrong, misunderstood or just flat out misinformed where I'ld expect to feel humiliated like I've seen others respond accordingly but for some reason that feeling doesn't register with my ego when it happens to me. I'm left asking how come I'm not pissed off? That's just weird which makes the internet for me so damn interesting from a sociological aspect.

I look at communicating in forums on the internet similar to prayer, except instead of speaking to a faceless entity that don't speak back, there are these characters that appear to know a lot of stuff they're passionate about to the point they lose their compassion for the folks they're attempting to enlighten, advise or just exchange new information.

I just learn to roll with it by walking away from the computer or smartphone, take a walk and return to the discussion with fresh cup of coffee and "fuh-gettuh-bout-it".

I believe I understand him: It's a logical fallacy to ask for pictures if they are not relevant to the issue at hand. In particular it's the "ad hominem" one. It's the I don't know what to reply so I tell the person: You are short and short people are never right. In this case short will be "not a good photographer".They are cases were asking for pictures it's justified. The guy insists that CCD medium format has 10 stops of dynamic range above the D810. Asking for a picture demonstration makes sense.

In the other hand, I don't see this or any other form of "ad hominem" arguments in this forums that much. In comparison with most internet forums this one and GetDPI are very good, and when stuff gets out of hand the moderators do intervine.

I believe I understand him: It's a logical fallacy to ask for pictures if they are not relevant to the issue at hand. In particular it's the "ad hominem" one. It's the I don't know what to reply so I tell the person: You are short and short people are never right. In this case short will be "not a good photographer".They are cases were asking for pictures it's justified. The guy insists that CCD medium format has 10 stops of dynamic range above the D810. Asking for a picture demonstration makes sense.

In the other hand, I don't see this or any other form of "ad hominem" arguments in this forums that much. In comparison with most internet forums this one and GetDPI are very good, and when stuff gets out of hand the moderators do intervine.

Best regards,

Or they can always do what one poster does when I keep asking about how color is affected by a wide range of scenes according to forward/backward LUTs in a .dcp file...

The term "bullying" is used way to often and too liberally these days. Give someone an evil eye, and someone will cry "bullying." So, my first objection in this thread is using that term for a relatively benign request. Come to think of it, I already feel intimidated and bullied by the tone of the OP post, which immediately dismisses those with differing views as bullies (see how easy it is )

Asking to see someone's pictures is often used to weed out tyre-kickers from practitioners. It then equally makes sense to continue debating practitioners and stay away for tyre-kickers. Oftentimes practitioners have no time or inclination to engage in a debate for the sake of indulging tyre-kickers' need for... debating.

This tire-kicker usually asks questions in order to learn something. I am at the "meh" stage of a photographer. Beginners can be so amazed that anything turns out that they overestimate their skills at photography. Then they try out various techniques (this includes the dreaded "HDR Phase"). Then reality sets in and they look over their portfolio and decide they don't know much of anything because the photos are "meh".

What I understand from the initial post is this situation: somebody replies to the OP something like "I don't think your choice of shutter speed was the best for this case" or something similar and the OP replies:"why don't you show us some of your photos to see how qualified you are to make this statement". He might not be that qualified but he might still have a point.

What I understand from the initial post is this situation: somebody replies to the OP something like "I don't think your choice of shutter speed was the best for this case" or something similar and the OP replies:"why don't you show us some of your photos to see how qualified you are to make this statement". He might not be that qualified but he might still have a point.

Oh crap! Is that what the OP meant by "show your photos" as a form of bullying?

OK I plumb forgot about that reason. Still, I don't see that as bullying.

But I do agree that a gallery of photos doesn't tell the whole story about any photographer's technical prowess, too many variables to sort out.

However, it will give an idea of a pattern of choices made by the photographer on what, why, when, where and how they composed the scene in an attempt to communicate their own personal view, but certainly not give any verifiable indication of their technical knowledge on how they went about doing it.

There's a lot of creatively centered folks who produce out of this world images but know very little technical details on gear and how to use it. Some of them get by making theses incredible creations editing with a free app like Picasa.

A number of years ago, a friend and colleague was in Denali photographing moose during the rut and dall sheep higher up. If you've never shot in Denali, there is a lottery for vehicle permits for photography in the fall. A lot of photographers don't get a permit and so they ride the bus. The point beyond which you can't drive is the Savage River bridge. From the park entrance to the river you can drive all you want. Beyond the bridge you take the bus if you don't have one of the permits. All day long there are buses going both ways. You get on the bus and ask the driver to let you off when you see something you want to photograph. Then you catch the next bus. So, my friend had been in a discussion about equipment in one of the visitor centers, then he and another photographer got on a bus. The other photographer was very well know and had a lot of covers on outdoor magazines. They're sitting together on the bus and the other guy asks my friend about the depth of field preview button. My friend explained how the DoF preview button worked. The other guy had no idea. In fact he said he just always shot aperture priority with it wide open. He owned top of the line equipment with really good, fast lenses, so when he shot wide open, he got the subject animal in sharp focus and a nice creamy bokah for the background. Just what you'd want for a cover, and it seemed to always work for him. He knew composition and he knew how to photograph animals to get natural, alert looks without disturbing them. He just didn't know some very basic things about photography. You wouldn't want to take any advice he might give about the technology of photography, but his portfolio wouldn't have indicated that.

...You wouldn't want to take any advice he might give about the technology of photography, but his portfolio wouldn't have indicated that.

And that is exactly the point: his portfolio is the best advice. If you want to learn about the technology of photography, by all means avoid practitioners and flock to geek forums where you can kick tires all day long. If you want to learn photography, however...

A statement to the effect of "Show me your photos" is not an argument and in it's basest form is nothing short of bullying. It is a tactic to intimidate in lieu of actual argument. … It is usually a blanket ultimatum intended to shut down debate from a particular poster.

At best "Show me your photos" might lead us to acknowledge someone as a kind-of expert --

Quote

But it is argument, not just the word of the experts, which should be carrying the authoritative weight, and the argument we are presented with here is far from convincing, because it offers us nothing beyond the mere word of the experts. If we are satisfied with only the word of the experts, we are essentially being told: "Don't ask any questions, just do as we say."

The strongest kind of expert evidence incorporates the reasons the experts advance for holding a certain position. In such a case, we have more than mere opinion to deal with.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 05:55:53 PM by Isaac »

Logged

telyt

Suppose you are interested in photos that permit documentation of rare animals, and no other purpose, and I'm interested in well-composed photos of common animals that appeal on an aesthetic level to a broad audience (or vice-versa?). Would it matter what kind of photos I make? Or does it only matter that my photos include wild animals?

Let's add a little perspective to this: Should a football coach (be that American also) or a boxing coach be able to play the sport well to prove its worth? Or are the art critics renowned for their work? Just saying.

They are cases were asking for pictures it's justified. The guy insists that CCD medium format has 10 stops of dynamic range above the D810. Asking for a picture demonstration makes sense.

no, it makes no sense at all to ask for pictures - the guy is technically illiterate, yet he might be a good photographer in terms of the visual impact and/or commercial achievements (and vice versa)... 2 local Ph.D.'s come to mind