They have no choice but to cave in, the only way they are going to keep people playing is through end level item grinding. The problem is no matter what new dungeons they bring in they are always going to be just a zerg rez fest.

Now correct me if im wrong, But should not their primary goal be to get people to buy from the Gem Store? Not seeing how setting vertical progression of gear outside the store is gona help that goal.

Uh, I think making the game fun should be their primary goal?

Actually in a P2P subscription game that is the primary goal (or if not fun addictive) because then people continue to subscribe, B2P/F2P has to take some of the fun out of the game in order to sell it to you in dollar chunks.

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Originally posted by sammyeliDamn it was going strong until someone threw logic in the thread O_O, now I have nothing to read at work.

Originally posted by sammyeli

Originally posted by RefMinor

Actually in a P2P subscription game that is the primary goal (or if not fun addictive) because then people continue to subscribe, B2P/F2P has to take some of the fun out of the game in order to sell it to you in dollar chunks.

Oh we have winner here, lets get the ball rolling again.

So do you want people to use logic or not? These statements of yours are contradictory.

It is logical that a game with a cash shop needs to remove some sort of item that has entertainment value so that they can sell it through the cash shop. I say it has entertainment value because that's the point of games, providing entertainment.

Edit: Since I guess I have to explain this. It is implied that the thread was going well until logic was injected. At that point, it stopped "going strong". To "get the ball rolling again" using the context already setup in a previous post, it would imply that logic was no longer being used going forward. However, the post that would "get the ball rolling again" was based upon the use of logic in determining that elements must be removed from a B2P/F2P due to the necessity of monetization.

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Originally posted by killion81

Originally posted by sammyeli

Originally posted by RefMinor

Actually in a P2P subscription game that is the primary goal (or if not fun addictive) because then people continue to subscribe, B2P/F2P has to take some of the fun out of the game in order to sell it to you in dollar chunks.

Oh we have winner here, lets get the ball rolling again.

Originally posted by sammyeliDamn it was going strong until someone threw logic in the thread O_O, now I have nothing to read at work.

So do you want people to use logic or not? These statements of yours are contradictory.

It is logical that a game with a cash shop needs to remove some sort of item that has entertainment value so that they can sell it through the cash shop. I say it has entertainment value because that's the point of games, providing entertainment.

I don't think you understand what that word means. "Contradictory"

Atleast according to what I posted. but let the ball go full speed!!!!

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Originally posted by Foomerang

Originally posted by QSatuSome more info:

it seems crafting will get a boost too:

"It's also worth noting that with the update there will be a new resource to harvest, along with 200 new crafting recipes being added. Presumably these will be focused on the ascended quality level as well, so it will be interesting to see how expensive the new recipes will be to create given the current high production costs on exotic gear."

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Sounds to me the improvement in the armour will be to help tackle the mobs deeper in the new dungeon, I'll be really surprised if the armour helps outside the dungeon/against the new mobs. Doubt it will be global.

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I love the concept of the new dungeon. I don't like that they are introducing "end game gear inflation".

IMO, they could have introduced a new tier of armor that was easier to fine tune stat-wise, with out increasing the overall power level. Dungeon armor already offers some stat distributions not found elsewhere. Infusions could have allowed a high degree of stat customization and that would have been enough of a step up to make the new "grind" worth while.

As to the concept of skins vs. power as "grind reward", I think the problem that arose was that most dungeons have pretty horrible skins. It seems the art dept. just wasn't up to the task of producing a steady stream of desirable skins in order to provide the proper incentive for dungeon progression. I'd say at least half the armor in the game is pretty excellent, but a number of skins are pretty poor and a lot of those are tied to dungeons.

I'm guessing it's a lot easier to add gear inflation than to go out and find artists capable of producing armor skins of the quality needed to incentivize dungeon grinds...

They have no choice but to cave in, the only way they are going to keep people playing is through end level item grinding. The problem is no matter what new dungeons they bring in they are always going to be just a zerg rez fest.

Now correct me if im wrong, But should not their primary goal be to get people to buy from the Gem Store? Not seeing how setting vertical progression of gear outside the store is gona help that goal.

Uh, I think making the game fun should be their primary goal?

Actually in a P2P subscription game that is the primary goal (or if not fun addictive) because then people continue to subscribe, B2P/F2P has to take some of the fun out of the game in order to sell it to you in dollar chunks.

I don't see them too far off from each other, at least on paper. If a game isn't fun, then people won't subscribe. If a game isn't fun then people won't spend money in the cash shop.

In reality both revenue models gate something behind a paywall.

In a F2P game the options for locking can be more diverse. It can be like LotRO where you have to buy quest packs and locked content areas. It can be like NCSoft and PWE games where you get boosts and buffs to make your life easier and progression go faster.

In P2P games the fun is usually gated behind a content upgrade. Look at RIFT or EQ2 for this model. In RIFT if you don't pony up the extra cash for the xpac, in addition to you sub, then you don't get to level, can't wear the new gear, don't get any new goodies, the new class/soul options are restricted. In essence you are nerfed to a disadvantage unless you pay up. This is true with EQ2 xpacs too. They throw everyone a bone, but keep all the fun locked squarely behind the upgrade paywall.

Either model needs to extort funds from cheap gamers somehow. It all depends on which sort works for the player. The whole strong arm comes in because people have already invested some time and money in the game, regardless of the payement model, and the developer is counting on the player to pay up so they don't lose out. Where else will the player go if they don't pay? At least that I think is the concept behind forced upgrades.

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I dont think the addition of a new tier of gear by itself is the issue. I just think that for some, this is the final straw in a list of letdowns.Lets be honest for a moment, the gw2 that we have in front of us is not quite like the one anet told us about. From an outsiders view, i dont think its a big deal especially since crafting will most likely stay up to date with the new tiers added. But some people seem disillusioned and i cant really blame them.

It started with dynamic events being redundant and farmable, then rng cash shop items, and now content patches that add more powerful gear. Its really hard to look past these as anet claimed a changing dynamic world that players could permanently affect, bashed sub fees saying it was basically ripping off customers, and shunning carrot on a stick tactics claiming that "fun" was all you needed.

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Originally posted by Foomerang

I dont think the addition of a new tier of gear by itself is the issue. I just think that for some, this is the final straw in a list of letdowns.Lets be honest for a moment, the gw2 that we have in front of us is not quite like the one anet told us about. From an outsiders view, i dont think its a big deal especially since crafting will most likely stay up to date with the new tiers added. But some people seem disillusioned and i cant really blame them.

It started with dynamic events being redundant and farmable, then rng cash shop items, and now content patches that add more powerful gear. Its really hard to look past these as anet claimed a changing dynamic world that players could permanently affect, bashed sub fees saying it was basically ripping off customers, and shunning carrot on a stick tactics claiming that "fun" was all you needed.

You underestimate how big of an issue this is to many. The official forums really show this. I have dozens of tiered gear progression MMOs under my belt. One of the biggest Anet promises for this game, was not having to go through that. I could WvW and be on equal footing. I could pve and be on equal footing. I could take long breaks, come back and be on equat footing.

The progression was suppose to come in other forums, cosmetic, brag weapons, etc.

If they go back on their word, then the game morphs quickly into every other MMO from the past 8 years. So then I have to ask myself, why am I playing it? It becomes harder to justify.

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The idea of doing dungeons just for cosmetic gear sounded OK to me. But once I played the game, I realized that the dungeons weren't fun enough (for me) just to get better looking gear. Apparently a lot of people felt similarly. If I'm going to grind dungeons for gear, it should at least be an improvement over what I already have.

I applaud them for trying something different and being willing to make adjustments based on feedback. It will probably be a pain to get runs for the old dungeons though, if you want the look of that armor.

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Originally posted by Pouf

wow i'm Really and kinda pissed at the same time , I am not playing anymore but I got my full flamearmor set before leaving KNOWING that they said that end game gear will be best for a lot of time because progression will be horizontal.

Now I know that all the time I "wasted" doing cathedral of flame again and again to grind a set was "useless" since if I relog in 6 months my gear will probably be outdated by a lot.. Wow..

So this game really is like the other ones..

Meh.

It's not useless if you like the look of that gear and want to transfer it to gear with improved stats, assuming they still allow that with ascended gear.

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Originally posted by Foomerang

I dont think the addition of a new tier of gear by itself is the issue. I just think that for some, this is the final straw in a list of letdowns.Lets be honest for a moment, the gw2 that we have in front of us is not quite like the one anet told us about. From an outsiders view, i dont think its a big deal especially since crafting will most likely stay up to date with the new tiers added. But some people seem disillusioned and i cant really blame them.

It started with dynamic events being redundant and farmable, then rng cash shop items, and now content patches that add more powerful gear. Its really hard to look past these as anet claimed a changing dynamic world that players could permanently affect, bashed sub fees saying it was basically ripping off customers,and shunning carrot on a stick tactics claiming that "fun" was all you needed.

For Some and at the end of the day it's a video game, hope to God no one thought otherwise.

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This all seems a little premature. It's not like we're at the point where we can change their direction, so might as well wait the few days and see what the deal really is, before getting all worked up over it.

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.