TomServo wrote:Awesome idea! Not only responsible, but I'm sure will win you points with the bartender. I know it would for me.

Ultimately, it's the discretion of the LEO, that determines whether or not it will even go to court. The fact that it's a copy, NOT the real ID, I think won't really matter. The last thing an officer would want to do, is to travel around matching up IDs.

Just to let you know. If the person(sting) gives you a fake id and the bartender did there job by looking at the date and photo you HAVE to ask the person are they under 21. They can not lie to you. It is entrapment. I always ask people before i get their id if they are underage. We had a city sting and did this as well as asked for the person's id. They said they are underage. I passed the inspection. So ALWAYS ALWAYS ask if they are of age before seeing an ID. it will cover your ass! If it is not a cop and they say they are over the drinking age and it is a fake ID. You are not responsible as the bartender if busted. It falls on the person with the fake ID.

( 10 years of bartending)

Good to know! I've always asked if they were over legal age..unless the answer was obvious..in past years..and its been a few since I've bartended...most people that came up did not have an ID on them...I'm glad this is being discussed...

gyre wrote:Seems like a particularly onerous question to have to ask, when someone would be breaking the law by choosing to drink.

I don't understand this statement. How is asking three simple questions even close to "onerous"?

If they're a minor, they're not legal to drink & serving them could cost you (the server) $1000+ in fines; if they're legal age but not legal to drink it's their own fault, plus you could get fined for not asking them.

Takes less than 30 seconds to ask all three. Not difficult at all.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

I don't know that I agree that "they, undercover" can't lie about age. I can't remember where, but it seems unless you have a witness, that they lie, you can't prove they did, if they deny it.Dang, I'm trying to remember, but it seems it was an instructional course for volunteer bartenders........that if we had any excuse, we need another person to hear them lie........

it is. They are trying to get you to commit a non legal act you where not in the process's of committing.

Say I was escorting. I have put an ad up online saying im looking for...... If i asked the person if he is a cop he can lie simply because I was the one starting the illegal act. Just the same as them coming up to you asking if you want to buy a bag of weed. and you say are you a cop... they wouldn't be able to do that because they are trying to get you to commit a illegal act you had not intention in doing in the first place. Or say you are talking to a undercover cop and you dont know it. You say something like fuck i really hate my bf ect ect and they say why dont you just take him out. Set up a hit. See what im saying? They cant set you up if you are not trying to do anything in the first place they have to be honest about this kinda stuff or the whole case will fall apart because of it. With stings like this they generally record what happens.

maladroit- Burning Man is like a second job, except you pay to work there.Burning Man is just the pre party for exodus! - fellow burner during exodus

ygmir wrote:I don't know that I agree that "they, undercover" can't lie about age. I can't remember where, but it seems unless you have a witness, that they lie, you can't prove they did, if they deny it.Dang, I'm trying to remember, but it seems it was an instructional course for volunteer bartenders........that if we had any excuse, we need another person to hear them lie........

well, I can be wrong, but it seems I remember something like that.

Check with Piney and TITWI, but I seem to remember that the Booby Bar had someone come in every year and then we were told we had passed been appropriate. This is very crudely phrased and it wasn't my experience--this is the gist as I understand it.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

ygmir wrote:I don't know that I agree that "they, undercover" can't lie about age. I can't remember where, but it seems unless you have a witness, that they lie, you can't prove they did, if they deny it.

Undercover cops can lie about anything, and do. It's part of their job. Think about it - they're undercover with a drug operation/ a militia group/ a doomsday church/ anything where they can get killed: do you really think they're going to answer the question honestly? What they can't do is try to entrap you (make you do something you weren't going to do otherwise).

Sending in a minor to buy a drink is not entrapment- it's how they find out if you're doing your legal obligations. If someone young comes in and asks for a drink and you just hand one over without asking the questions or checking ID, you fucked up- you were not "made" to do something. The obligation to check ID and ask is on the bar.

However, if a minor comes in and lies about their age when you ask, and you check their ID & it looks legit, the onus is on the minor, not you. You did what is required of you.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

yeah ok..........I just thought it was something to do with "reality vs rules".....sure, they're not supposed to entrap, or lie, but if they do, and you can't prove it, you're still in trouble. you have to be able to prove they lied, or it's hearsay, as I understand.Maybe it was just a warning, that if in doubt, get another person to hear them lie, with you, so you can both tesftify if necessary.

I know, "legally" certain things are are not ok...........I also know, not everyone plays by "the rules".

According to the "Alcohol Awareness" class I took for servers in Carson City they can lie about their age and use a fake ID. Whether or not they do is a policy decided by the agency doing the sting. Most don't because it could be viewed as entrapment and thrown out of court so it's not worth their time. We can't all be expected to be forensics experts when checking ids. A best practice is to make sure their picture matches and they were born on the current date in 1991 or earlier. Wow 1991. Remember what you were doing in 1991? Oh yeah, it doesn't hurt to ask if it's legal for them to drink in the state of Nevada either.

I would hope people would be doing their jobs. I would really hate to see a dumb UA get hit by an art care, die of poisoning or something else. So if you are serving do your job. Dont serve UA's or people who are very intoxicated. you will be held with some blame and can be charged. my fellow co worker at my bar, he nephew was ua and the bar next door to our served him with a fake id and served him wayyyy to much. he drove and smashed into a tree going 80. the bar just about had their licensed yanked and charges. this went on for over a year. all over the papers to. some how they got out of it. but it is still something as a bartender i think about everyday. keep people safe and your self.

maladroit- Burning Man is like a second job, except you pay to work there.Burning Man is just the pre party for exodus! - fellow burner during exodus

When you are 18 kids think it is cool to drive fast and show off around here. main street. i see people go down it at 50! or do whippies around the corner. The kids on the crotch rockets do it alot. Had a kid about 4 months ago who was drunk riding his bike. He had no licence and saw a cop with his lights on. He thought he was getting pulled over so he reved up and went.... 120. He hit the gaurd rail on the bridge and went into the river. He died on impact. Shitty thing was he wasnt getting pulled over the cops turned on his lights to take off to another call.

Another kid on his bike drunk last week not wearing a helmet. going 60 in a 35 doing tricks. ran into a telephone post and died. He was my coworkers cousin. It was pretty bad from what he said.

mind you i live in a small town. 25,000 people.

It is weird though countries like Germany have pretty much no laws in germany about drinking. I think death rates from drinking/driving are lower if im not mistaken. but yeah kids do not be drinking. to many deaths from it. just my view

maladroit- Burning Man is like a second job, except you pay to work there.Burning Man is just the pre party for exodus! - fellow burner during exodus

Germany doesn't need the age restriction.Driving violations are very serious.Who doesn't know that alcohol makes you a less safe driver?Never gave me the urge to drive stupid.

I do have friends that should never drink.Has nothing to do with age.Pulled one away from the cops awhile back.That's fun!

I have been known to drive a little hard.There's a reason they call me to drive when we paint over gang territory graffiti.Just never had the urge to do anything stupid in a car when I was drunk, even in high school.I may have done some questionable things sober, but I'm sure they have repaired the football field and grandstand by this time.