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I didn't know the Secret Service had such 'power' to define things as counterfeit.

There must be some court case that defines such police powers to the SS

This is from the SS web-site, so it must be true:

Counterfeit Currency
The Secret Service has jurisdiction over violations involving the counterfeiting of United States obligations and securities. Some of the counterfeited United States obligations and securities commonly investigated by the Secret Service include U.S. currency (to include coins), U.S. Treasury checks, Department of Agriculture food coupons and U.S. postage stamps.

The Secret Service remains committed to the mission of combating counterfeiting by working closely with state and local law enforcement agencies, as well as foreign law enforcement counterparts, to aggressively pursue counterfeiters. The Secret Service maintains a working relationship with the Bureau of Engraving and Printing and the Federal Reserve System to ensure the integrity of the nation's currency.

The only relevant court case that comes to mind at this point is that of Bernard von NotHaus...

I didn't know the Secret Service had such 'power' to define things as counterfeit.

There must be some court case that defines such police powers to the SS :hmmmm2:

I ran into a bunch of them while working in Moscow 1995-1989, on the plane ride over sat next to a few, all there because of the counterfeits in Russia. One stated that up to 50 percent of all US cash in Russia was counterfeit, and someone was making perfect 100's.We changed our currency design shortly after 1989 if memory serves.

People took advantage of new coins like that in the past. The V nickel comes to mind. When it was new, they plated it with brass or zinc and many were passed as 5 dollar gold pieces. Although back then, news was slow as there was no television or internet, and the coins were worth less than their metal content.

UGH! This is *terrible* news for Norfed collectors and sellers as it is going to severely limit availability and access to the coins (which will depress new collectors coming into the market IMO). I realize they will now appeal to some since they're "officially banned" now, but if you can't sell them on eBay a lot of dealers simply won't show interest. Realistically you're going to have to set up a website, or partner with someone willing to sell them for you Aurumag. I guess you could try listing them without Norfed in the title, but I have a feeling eBay will still kill your auctions. Hopefully something will work out for you shortly though.

I guess now is the time to scour eBay and record prices for all the available closed auctions Norfed auctions. Bummer, I was just starting to put my collection together and now this happens

I have no idea - havent followed it at all. I was operating on the assumption that the Secret Service simply arbitrarily decided that they shouldnt be allowed "for sale" and issued an edict to ebay to cease and desist. If mistaken - I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by Gcubed

I think they actually had a trial and the jury found the stuff to be counterfeit. The perp is still awaiting sentencing. Has my memory failed me?

Ignorant people don't understand The Federalist Papers, but they understand government checks with their names on them.” -- Joseph Sobran

I have no idea - havent followed it at all. I was operating on the assumption that the Secret Service simply arbitrarily decided that they shouldnt be allowed "for sale" and issued an edict to ebay to cease and desist. If mistaken - I stand corrected.

I'm pretty sure that there was a trial. Do dat count as "due process"?

I expect to see this rule pursued ruthlessly by buyers and sellers until Ebay once again is a safe and reputable site for coin/bar sales.:rolleyes:

R.

"Walk the gold trails of my good friend, do I. On my feet are "strong sole" of thick leather, purchased with much knowledge of physical gold. These shoes not go bare before our journey is done. On trail I see your "thin sole" gold investments cast aside and scavenged by beasts." - ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) (04/14/01; 18:08:54MT - #: 51887)

You are right, there was a trial. The issue is the dollar amount they printed on these coins. Only the US Govt. has the authority to mint coins, which means to give them a dollar amount. The defendants argued that the amounts only represented "Liberty Dollars" and not US Dollars and they had no intent to try and pass them off as legal tender. But e-mail documents, letters, and an interview the guy did with a journalist when he used a $10 Liberty coin at a shop to purchase something showed otherwise.

These guys tried to push the limits and they went too far. Anyone can issue bullion, and hell you can even put some sort of denomination on it, but it can't seem like they are in $dollars. 10 barter units, 10 credits, something like that would be OK, but when you use the international sign for dollar $, and it has Ten Dollars stamped on the bottom, that's too far for a jury.

Are they saying that NO replica coins are now allowed on ebay???.......last i looked the whole site was full of replica coins?????

Apparently the Liberty Dollar was lumped together with all the replica coins which eBay banned, at the behest of the SS, of course.

GCubed is right.

There was a federal trial in March of 2011, and BvNH was convicted of counterfeiting, although he has yet to be sentenced.

Here's the thing though:

If the LD was indeed counterfeit U.S. Coinage, shouldn't the SS have already gone after eBay sellers like me? I've been very publicly marketing LDs since 2004, and I have yet to be charged with a crime.

The U.S. Mint sent me a cease and desist letter in 2006, and the address is still the same, so its not like I've been hiding and they can't find me.

In this case, the SS persuaded eBay to ban the sales of LDs, so it remains to be seen as to whether the SS will go after everyone in possession of LDs.

IMO, this will be numismatic value positive for the Liberty Dollar.

By the way, no one, including the Mint or U.S. Treasury, owns the word "Dollar," and "The Liberty Dollar" is a registered trade mark.

Daniel Carr's coins are considered fantasy pieces. He makes coins that never existed (eg. 1964 Peace dollar), or totally original (hard times tokens/Ameros), or coins that are overstruck with new dates, mm, and details. Daniel has really gone out of his way to make sure he's not in a legal grey area from what I've read. He's a very helpful guy and will respond to questions if you ever need to ask him anything. His stuff nearly always goes up in value and I plan on buying at least one or two pieces from him at the FUN show this January. The fact he has a vintage US Mint press to stamp out coins really adds to the appeal on some level.

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States

It's his own damn fault for sticking a dollar value on them, which made them money.

I think the issue is not only the "dollar value" because there are many countries that use dollar. The US doesn't have the monopoly on the word. It's more because he stuck "USA", "Liberty" "American", etc on the currency itself, which the feds saw as a direct challenge.

If he said "one dollar" issued by norfed private mint, he wouldn't have had an issue.

Sometimes allowing you to have a cigarette, before the firing squad pulls the rifle triggers, is all the due process you will ever get.

The trial appeared to be legit, but there was something wrong with the jury...they looked like sentient human beings, but when it came down to defiance of the fed monetary system, they blinked and went with the prosecutor's rambling bravo sierra.

As evidence, the prosecution used wrongly sized photocopies of U.S. Coinage to compare with the Liberty Dollars, and the jury bought it, IMO because they were chosen from a pool of compliant, sheople citizens who dutifully and unquestionably follow and perhaps even worship at the altar of fed.gov

The jury instructions lasted 4 hours, but the deliberation was less than two hours.

After the conviction, the prosecutor demanded that all the seized PMs be immediately melted as counterfeit contraband, then held a press conference and labeled BvNH a domestic terrorist.

The judge refused to give up the metal seized in 2007, but then the question arose as to whether ALL NORFED Liberty Dollars were contraband, including those sold on eBay and those in the possession of thousands of individuals.

After a few weeks, the DOJ came back and said, "It is OK to possess NORFED Liberty Dollars, as long as they are not used as current money."

eBay's decision was that of a private company complying with a blanket request from the SS, which included an entire list of sellers of replica coins.

oh well. I have some of these with varying denominations. Banning will drive the market price higher, but it will be more underground.

His problem was that he called them dollars. he could have used anything else and been ok, but the govt. doesn't look too kindly on competition.

As I stated in my post above, the eBay venue is no longer available for LD sales, as of today, but there is no prohibition against exchanging LDs as collectibles. eBay just happened to be the largest venue for such items.

The issue was never one of similitude, although that is what the DOJ used against the LD, and was apparently enough to convince the jury (not my peers).

You are correct that the issue was, is, and will continue to be one of competition, so long as the U.S. Dollar continues to be devalued, degraded and debased in direct contrast with the three monetary metals proscribed in the Coinage Act of 1792: copper, silver and gold.

Honest Money resonates with people, while scraps of cotton and pot metal coins are useful for nothing more than passing along before the next devaluation occurs.

The vast majority of the LDs I moved between 2005 and 2008 were obtained by my customers at an average price of $15 FRN per ounce, so all of my customers have done quite well in terms of exchanging FRNs for perennially valuable assets.

In light of global demand for PMs, and the concurrent loss of faith in the fiat FRN, it seems that the eBay banning was a relatively easy method for fed.gov to continue their attempts at squelching the honest money movement, and at the same time lumping the Liberty Dollar together with the rampant fake coin market.

Considering all I have risked, and all the wealth I have lost, but intend to regain, this is just a speed bump on the road to monetary freedom!

With all respect Aurumag, the jury had no agenda. They were to be impartial. Juries are supposed to be that way. Both sides had the opportunity to present their case. The jury ruled for the prosecution.

I understand your frustration however, you had an interest in the outcome of the trial. The jury could not and should not carry your bias.

With all respect Aurumag, the jury had no agenda. They were to be impartial. Juries are supposed to be that way. Both sides had the opportunity to present their case. The jury ruled for the prosecution.

I understand your frustration however, you had an interest in the outcome of the trial. The jury could not and should not carry your bias.

I freely admit my bias towards honest money, as that is why I went into the business.

Surely, based upon my knowledge of engineered FRN inflation, I could have quietly stacked PMs, but I instead chose to make a political statement, joined a controversial organization whose NORFED product (National Organization to Repeal the Federal Reserve and Income Tax) was, and still remains a protected act of free speech whose intent is to enrich Americans, including the jury that convicted the monetary architect.

I also know that the U.S. Mint coinage sales are big business, and I have had more than a few verbal altercations with coin dealers who are still relishing in the verdict.

The fact remains, that NORFED has its roots as a political organization whose goal is to tangibly demonstrate the FACT that the U.S. Dollar has been surreptitiously debased; a crime which, until LBJ ramrodded the Coinage Act of 1965, was punishable by death.

I harbor no animosity towards the jury, or ebay, but the Mint, the SS, the FBI, the fed.gov prosecutor and DOJ cannot claim a lack of bias, or innocence for that matter. They are all culpable in their efforts to silence the Honest Money Movement, and eventually, they will pay the price for their part in this grand monetary deception known as the FRN system.

99 years of fiat has successfully indoctrinated the majority to tacitly accept empty promises of value in place of the REAL value which is the bedrock of every thriving marketplace throughout history. Majority rules in a democracy, right?

Still, even though I touched and thus enriched only a miniscule percentage of the population with a product that is honest and pure, I would do it all again, and I will continue in my efforts so long as I have breath.

I freely admit my bias towards honest money, as that is why I went into the business.

Surely, based upon my knowledge of engineered FRN inflation, I could have quietly stacked PMs, but I instead chose to make a political statement, joined a controversial organization whose NORFED product (National Organization to Repeal the Federal Reserve and Income Tax) was, and still remains a protected act of free speech whose intent is to enrich Americans, including the jury that convicted the monetary architect.

I also know that the U.S. Mint coinage sales are big business, and I have had more than a few verbal altercations with coin dealers who are still relishing in the verdict.

The fact remains, that NORFED has its roots as a political organization whose goal is to tangibly demonstrate the FACT that the U.S. Dollar has been surreptitiously debased; a crime which, until LBJ ramrodded the Coinage Act of 1965, was punishable by death.

I harbor no animosity towards the jury, or ebay, but the Mint, the SS, the FBI, the fed.gov prosecutor and DOJ cannot claim a lack of bias, or innocence for that matter. They are all culpable in their efforts to silence the Honest Money Movement, and eventually, they will pay the price for their part in this grand monetary deception known as the FRN system.

99 years of fiat has successfully indoctrinated the majority to tacitly accept empty promises of value in place of the REAL value which is the bedrock of every thriving marketplace throughout history. Majority rules in a democracy, right?

Still, even though I touched and thus enriched only a miniscule percentage of the population with a product that is honest and pure, I would do it all again, and I will continue in my efforts so long as I have breath.

Yeah, I am totally biased!

There are many "honest money" products that are legally dealt in on a daily basis. Perhaps you should investigate that option. All legally operated businesses are subject to scrutiny. It seems to me that you got hooked up with a product that came with a potential legal burden and ended up paying a price. Good luck and fortune in your future endeavors.

As I stated in my post above, the eBay venue is no longer available for LD sales, as of today, but there is no prohibition against exchanging LDs as collectibles. eBay just happened to be the largest venue for such items.

The issue was never one of similitude, although that is what the DOJ used against the LD, and was apparently enough to convince the jury (not my peers).

You are correct that the issue was, is, and will continue to be one of competition, so long as the U.S. Dollar continues to be devalued, degraded and debased in direct contrast with the three monetary metals proscribed in the Coinage Act of 1792: copper, silver and gold.

Honest Money resonates with people, while scraps of cotton and pot metal coins are useful for nothing more than passing along before the next devaluation occurs.

The vast majority of the LDs I moved between 2005 and 2008 were obtained by my customers at an average price of $15 FRN per ounce, so all of my customers have done quite well in terms of exchanging FRNs for perennially valuable assets.

In light of global demand for PMs, and the concurrent loss of faith in the fiat FRN, it seems that the eBay banning was a relatively easy method for fed.gov to continue their attempts at squelching the honest money movement, and at the same time lumping the Liberty Dollar together with the rampant fake coin market.

Considering all I have risked, and all the wealth I have lost, but intend to regain, this is just a speed bump on the road to monetary freedom!

Ebay is only focused on making money. They aren't going to bother challenging the government or any big company. It's FAR easier for them to just ban a single product than to attempt to thumb their noses against the government, then draw it out into a legal battl.e They do not care what is correct or incorrect. If the government told them to stop listing products of any sort that they felt is inappropriate, ebay would simply comply.

The liberty dollars ran afoul of the US govt, therefore ran afoul of ebay or any other company that they may be listed or sold upon.

However the NORFED coins were also guilty of debasing the value of a "dollar" just like the FED. The nominal dollar amount of a NORFED silver ounce kept on going up, weren't the final issue ones $20 or were they $50? It's understandable that NORFED increased the dollar denomination as the price of silver increased, but it sorta undercut their own claims that they were trying to promote a stable currency and not trying to profit from the ability to issue money. The way they sold products to "investors" or members were flawed and made it seems like a for profit scam. Just my two cents, but I think they went too far in the way they sold and marketed their products.

With all respect Aurumag, the jury had no agenda. They were to be impartial. Juries are supposed to be that way. Both sides had the opportunity to present their case. The jury ruled for the prosecution.

I understand your frustration however, you had an interest in the outcome of the trial. The jury could not and should not carry your bias.

juries are hardly impartial. they're beaten over and over and over and over in the head they have to uphold the law. even the prosecutor and judge may admit they don't like the law, but they and the jury have to uphold the law. talk about witchcraft and voodoo, wizardry and spellcasting!

and then tell the jury about jury nullification...or try to and see what happens. lol.

Ebay is only focused on making money. They aren't going to bother challenging the government or any big company. It's FAR easier for them to just ban a single product than to attempt to thumb their noses against the government, then draw it out into a legal battl.e They do not care what is correct or incorrect. If the government told them to stop listing products of any sort that they felt is inappropriate, ebay would simply comply.

The liberty dollars ran afoul of the US govt, therefore ran afoul of ebay or any other company that they may be listed or sold upon.

You knocked that one out of the park my friend!

Hopefully I will have something to share with you tomorrow, but I will provide a clue or two:

I visited ebay headquarters today, and I spoke with the Secret Service.

I was happy to sell my last two rolls of 2008 fractional coins and the very next day ebay sent me the same secret service letter taking down my last two single 2005 coins. I was happy to keep them as souveniers and thrilled that i did not have the two rolls of fractionals to deal with. Maybe they will be worth a lot of money some day but i didnt like the idea of having that much money tied up in coins i cant easily sell. I am not a collector and only bought them with the intention of selling them for a profit. I buy metals for wealth preservation and liquidity. I am sorry for your misfortune Aurumag and hope it works out for you.