I think we've hit the wall with image quality of silent films with blu-ray. I doubt UHD would make much of a difference. The reason 4K mastering is good for silent films is that it gives more latitude for restoration. It won't really add any resolution, and the advanced color is wasted on B&W films.

The same movies, released and re-released over and over again. Meanwhile a vast horde of silents made by major studios continue to sit gathering dust, nearly a century after they were made, and may keep doing so for another century. What can we do to see these movies? I've only got so many years to live, for goodness' sake....

The Blackbird wrote:The same movies, released and re-released over and over again. Meanwhile a vast horde of silents made by major studios continue to sit gathering dust, nearly a century after they were made, and may keep doing so for another century. What can we do to see these movies? I've only got so many years to live, for goodness' sake....

Buy and review the films that DO come out, of course. When DVD sales are lousy, only the big names will be released.

Rodney Sauer
The Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com"Let the Music do the Talking!"

I must have 3-4 dvd's of The General, including the Kino blu-ray and yet the one I always watch is the older version with the Mont Alto score. For me it's the definitive score, like Jon Mirsalis's score for Woman in the Moon. I'm old and set in my ways. A new and improved picture doesn't make it more enjoyable for me.

Think what we've had this year. Behind the Door. Beggars of Life. Zaza. Napoleon. Pioneers of African-American Cinema. Variety. When Knighthood Was in Flower.

I understand the feeling when Keaton, Phantom of the Opera and, apparently, The Lost World keep coming out, but it's worth remembering that for being the worst time to release physical media, we sure keep getting a lot of it.

“Sentimentality is when it doesn't come off—when it does, you get a true expression of life's sorrows.” —Alain-Fournier

Think what we've had this year. Behind the Door. Beggars of Life. Zaza. Napoleon. Pioneers of African-American Cinema. Variety. When Knighthood Was in Flower.

I understand the feeling when Keaton, Phantom of the Opera and, apparently, The Lost World keep coming out, but it's worth remembering that for being the worst time to release physical media, we sure keep getting a lot of it.

For sure, it's just frustrating as the years, indeed, decades, go by, and - for instance - THREE WEEKS, NEVADA, MADCAP MADGE, EVERYBODY'S SWEETHEART, REVELATION, HIS HOUR, DADDY'S GONE A-HUNTING, THE WAY OF A GIRL, THE WHITE DESERT, SUN-UP, EXCHANGE OF WIVES, TIME THE COMEDIAN, THE ONLY THING, OLD CLOTHES, SOUL MATES, SALLY IRENE AND MARY, MONTE CARLO, PARIS, THE WANING SEX, THE DESERT'S TOLL, THE FLAMING FOREST, VALENCIA, JOHNNY GET YOUR HAIR CUT, ALTARS OF DESIRE, THE TAXI DANCER, THE FIRE BRIGADE, WOMEN LOVE DIAMONDS, THE UNDERSTANDING HEART, HEAVEN ON EARTH, ROOKIES, ON ZE BOULEVARD, FOREIGN DEVILS, BODY AND SOUL, THE THIRTEENTH HOUR, IN OLD KENTUCKY, THE GARDEN OF ALLAH, BECKY, THE LOVELORN, THE LAW OF THE RANGE, UNDER THE BLACK EAGLE, WYOMING, RIDERS OF THE DARK, DETECTIVES, FORBIDDEN HOURS, BEYOND THE SIERRAS, WHILE THE CITY SLEEPS, HONEYMOON, THE OVERLAND TELEGRAPH, SIOUX BLOOD, THE DESERT RIDER, CHINA BOUND, SPUDS, BROKEN HEARTS OF HOLLYWOOD, BACK TO GOD'S COUNTRY and so many others remain locked away, seemingly hopelessly. I can't even remember the last time an MGM silent got dusted off and re-released, I think it was THE COSSACKS back in 2014...

Roscoe wrote:Per Amazon UK, the box set has been pushed back again to November 20. And still no word of a US release from Cohen.

Thanks for the update, Roscoe. That's the second emailed date delay from Amazon in as many weeks, and it's closing in on the holiday season. Fingers crossed that this will be the last release window change, ...my stoneface is starting to feel chiseled.

Sadly, a U.S. Cohen release for these three fully restored Keaton films may be years in coming since KINO's last reissue of The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr. is so recent and still in stock. Also, judging from earlier releases, the Cohen group's packaging will probably be less impressive than the British Eureka/MoC set (which looks fab).

Note: A universal (zone free) BD player should be on every good guy's & gal's wish list.

The delays must have stopped – my copy arrived today! No chance to watch any of it yet, but had a quick flick through the booklet which is pretty neat. Looking forward to working my way through the whole set properly...

Think what we've had this year. Behind the Door. Beggars of Life. Zaza. Napoleon. Pioneers of African-American Cinema. Variety. When Knighthood Was in Flower.

I understand the feeling when Keaton, Phantom of the Opera and, apparently, The Lost World keep coming out, but it's worth remembering that for being the worst time to release physical media, we sure keep getting a lot of it.

I'm still waiting for a good edition of the 1925 Phantom and Hunchback.

Adam J wrote:The delays must have stopped – my copy arrived today! No chance to watch any of it yet, but had a quick flick through the booklet which is pretty neat. Looking forward to working my way through the whole set properly...

I received notice that my set has shipped from Amazon.co.uk, but anticipated arrival dates suggest this may take awhile to cross the pond. At any rate, this looks like a turn-key effort with superb packaging, booklet and the best currently available restorations of these Keaton classics. Looking forward to comments on the features & extras, and comparisons with earlier versions.

bigshot wrote:The review says it's 1080p. I guess that means that it's at 24 fps. I'm really glad I got the Spanish blu-ray that is in 26 fps. It is amazingly smooth and looks real.

Well, we won't know what the difference actually means visually (in motion) until comparisons are made. Progressive scans may have issues, but so do interlaced, they're just different issues.

Dr. Atanosov's review of the Eureka release verifies some of the source improvements I'm hoping to see & no major negatives stood out. While the timing difference between 26 fps and 24 fps might be significant (dependent upon the original projected speed and Keaton's intent) it seems a bit premature to assess one version as being superior to the other. Just sayin'.

The still screenshots in the review don't display enough detail on my iPad to judge the restoration quality, but the reviewer does provide sufficient info for optimism. I'm still very psyched about this set; can't wait 'till it arrives.

When I got the Spanish blu-ray of the Cohen/Bologna restoration, someone here pointed out that it was 26fps interlaced, which was cited as Keaton's preferred projection speed. Now that I'm not groggy and without coffee, I realize that if it is 1080p, it absolutely is 24 fps and not 26.

bigshot wrote:When I got the Spanish blu-ray of the Cohen/Bologna restoration, someone here pointed out that it was 26fps interlaced, which was cited as Keaton's preferred projection speed. Now that I'm not groggy and without coffee, I realize that if it is 1080p, it absolutely is 24 fps and not 26.

At this late hour I've transitioned from caffeine to dunkel bier, but the earlier discussion about projection speed left me curious enough to do a bit more research and this is what I've learned:

According to no less an authority than Kevin Brownlow, Buster's preferred projection speed for The General was 24 fps

Given this information, if presumed correct, the progressive scanned Eureka release should be dead-on at 24 fps. Therefor, it doesn't take anything away from the Spanish Blu-ray which is likely to be a progressive scan as well.

Well in this very forum David Shepard said the correct speed was 26fps so we have dueling restorationists I guess!

The Spanish blu-ray and the Eureka both source the same restoration. They are both the Cohen/Bologna restoration. And the Spanish version is interlaced because 26 is an odd frame rate that blu-ray doesn't support. In any case, I have the Spanish version at 26fps and the Kino one at 24, and I was blown away by the immediacy and presence the film has at 26fps. It's definitely my preferred speed, even if the grand old men can't agree on it.

bigshot wrote:Well in this very forum David Shepard said the correct speed was 26fps so we have dueling restorationists I guess!

The Spanish blu-ray and the Eureka both source the same restoration. They are both the Cohen/Bologna restoration. And the Spanish version is interlaced because 26 is an odd frame rate that blu-ray doesn't support. In any case, I have the Spanish version at 26fps and the Kino one at 24, and I was blown away by the immediacy and presence the film has at 26fps. It's definitely my preferred speed, even if the grand old men can't agree on it.

Sorry about misreading your earlier post, it seemed at the time that you were a bit unclear on interlacing. If you're certain that the Spanish BD was an intericed transfer at 26 fps and you're happy with it, then all is well.

Food for thought though: Unless I'm mistaken both the Spanish Blu-ray and the Eureka Ltd. Ed. claim a running time of 78 minutes. A 2 fps discrepancy contradicts this. By my calculations the faster running Spanish BD version should clock-in around six minutes shorter (72 minutes or thereabouts).

I have no way of knowing which of these great gentleman is correct about Keaton's preference for The General's projection speed, but given his reputation for minutiae, my inclination is to give Kevin Brownlow's informed opinion a slight edge.

Although that edition appears to have been released in 2014. It's difficult to read on the back cover but looks like 75 min (but could be 76/78).

That looks like the Cohen restoration release (mentioned on the back). Apparently it's been out awhile in Spain.

You're indeed correct, it states 75 minutes running time, 3 minutes shorter than the runnng time stated for the Eureka release. The Spanish Amazon listing also says 67 minutes in the product description which adds to the confusion. Naturally, my calculations may be off ...perhaps way off... as I was trying to extrapolate 2 fps of faster projection speed to the film's reduced running time in my head. Also, there may be other tack-ons (restoration acknowledgements, etc.) that could disguise the actual running time.

To be crystal clear on this, I'm not debating bigshot on which release of the Cohen restoration is "better". I'm just curious about the facts surrounding the running time and which timing Keaton considered optimum for The General. We know the Spanish interlaced release looks great ...there's no reason to doubt the quality judging from bigshot's enthusiasm for it..., but the exquisite packaging of the Eureka ltd. ed. suggests they've gone the extra mile to get this right.

Apologies if it looks like we're beating a dead iron horse on this release, but the fact that there's any discrepancy begs further inquiry. That's all I'm sayin'. Feel free to continue more general off-topic discussions. Sorry 'bout any derailment.

I think the reason Eureka did it different is because some people balk at I instead of P after the 1080. Kino does that too, to the consternation of the people who hate judder. Shepard claimed that the original cue sheets called for 67 minutes and 26 fps. The Spanish release is definitely faster than the old Kino. The back cover time may be a typo, or perhaps it includes some sort of restoration titles that have been tacked on. However the film speed is different and I really like it, because combined with the fantastic 4K transfer, it gives the film a live presence that is rare in silent films. Kind of like Todd AO in 30 frames, just not quite that pronounced. If you're going to own more than one copy of this, I'd suggest the Spanish one for the film and the Eureka one for the extras. (I have the Kino one, but I am giving it away for a Christmas present this year.)