Just to make things clear to everyone, I have accepted a challenge to try the retrobolted version of what was once a bold route.........bold enough that I was never up for the risk. Now that it has 2 extra bolts, it's pretty unlikely that a fall will lead to injury (sorry to disappoint those of you who were hoping for that result).

A couple of other things have sprung to mind, which could turn this w/e into the Spring Racing Carnival of climbing. Tnd has reassured us all that he can indead onsight routes harder than 21.........how about we nominate a shortlist of 22's in the Blueys. Then on the w/e in question, one route is drawn from the hat, and he must put his money where his mouth is?

How fit is our favorite has-been, Stugang? No one knows, he used to be pretty good. We could put him on one gr21ish route every 20mins until he falls off or fails to reach the top before the time is up......of course it would also be open season on any form of heckling. Take bets on how many routes he can do before the wheels come off.

First pitch of Hotel California. Grd. 22. How about 'Serious Leather' stated in the 2010 guide as a sport route. I can vouch thats an exciting 22 onsight not too far from the action. 'Red member' , Grahame Hills mega classic at Hylands is on the list.....Bic Disposable Boulevard at the county. oh too many fine routes at that grade!!

> Just to make things clear to everyone, I have accepted a challenge to try the retrobolted version of what was once a bold route.........bold enough that I was never up for the risk. Now that it has 2 extra bolts, it's pretty unlikely that a fall will lead to injury (sorry to disappoint those of you who were hoping for that result)

Don't worry ODH, if Macciza chops the route, then all bets are off. I won't hold you to 30 feet of soloing to the first bolt and I won't deem you to be a pussy for not getting on it.

I was reflecting on this whole thing yesterday. It occurred to me (as mentioned by someone early in the thread) that erosion has had a material effect on the proposition presented by this climb.

There is a lip at the base of the climb that looks like it used to be flush with the ground. The ground has probably eroded by about 5 feet below this since the 80s.

Putting myself in an imaginary time machine and going back to what the climb would have been like in the 80s, I get the following:
* You reach a good hold from the ground. The first bolt is 20 feet or more off the deck, but the climbing is fairly consistent and not likely to spit you off before clipping it. Pushing the boat out? Yes, but many climbs had starts like this to 'keep the fluff off'.

And now (assuming original bolts):
* The start is much, much harder (sorry to give away beta) and you have 10 feet of extra climbing (including traversing) before getting to that first good hold which is now 12 feet or so off the ground. Your first bolt is now closer to 30 feet off the deck. Things are getting a bit stupid.

The two extra retro bolts have been placed to protect the start.

The real business of this climb is upstairs, the first 30 feet of it being only a minor part of the story. As I have said before, the retro-bolted version is not 'sport-bolted'. The gear placements (not straight-forward) are retained. Anyone leading it onsight/ground-up will need to pack some commitment.

Macciza, I sympathise with your views because I have been very upset by some retro jobs in the past. However, whilst the re-bolting of this climb is a really tricky issue and I can see both sides, I can't get upset over this one. The retro job actually could have been a lot worse. Could it have been better? Maybe. (Only one non-stick clippable carrot added to protect the start?)

Dalai has made some very fair points in this thread. Dalai, I totally agree with you that the calibre of the suitors on this route is not impressive!! Middle-aged, middle-grade punters all round. I have absolutely no doubt that there are plenty of people out there who could onsight this route on the original bolts. If I was a decent young climber reading this, I would be inclined to onsight the route, skipping the first 2 bolts to make a point to the old farts carrying on.

We will see what happens. I do think it would be truly extraordinary from an ethical standpoint if the route is chopped by someone who has been top-roping it!

On 12/08/2012 Cliff D wrote:>To summarise, should ODH get the onsight, Neil and Peter will donate 50>apiece to the Araps recue mob, and Alex will give Mike L $50 (for bolting);>and Peter will throw in another $50 if done in Boreal Aces.>>I'll contribute 100 to the rescue group if Damo doesn't get the OS.

Regarding erosion at the base, I first climbed Exhibition Wall in 1996 and there was no cairn, but it was a reachy boulder problem to get going. I don't think it has eroded significantly since then, <10cm in 16yrs. So the "other 1.5m of erosion" must have happened in the first 17yrs (Ex. Wall established 1979ish?)........I call bullshit!

Cliff D wants a form guide :) Well, when I'm in top form I'm pretty confident on Blueys 23/24 (maybe 3 out of 4)...........however, I'm pretty fuching far from top form! This seems like a good ascent to gamble about. If I can get a couple of days in at Cosmic to remind myself how to climb that slabby Blueys stuff, seems like it might be close to even odds........or maybe it'll kick my arse. I'm as curious as anyone else to see what will happen.

My nomination for Tnd's 22 to be onsighted is Jezebel :D

Maybe the grade of routes for torturing Stuey should be upped to 22 as well?..........I don't want him to fall off a tricky move though, I want him to fall off cause he's utterly fuched from climbing too much too fast.

Also, I don't have a problem with Stugang holding my rope, probably safer than trusting any of the people I've been hurling abuse at. After all, it's just sport climbing.

On 12/08/2012 Cliff D wrote:>Damo, are you OK with Stugang belaying with his Sticht plate (his request);

I don't really understand why that would be a problem for anyone. What's wrong with sticht plates?

>and are you going to wear Aces? Peter said he'd donate $50 if you did.>
No, I don't have a pair anymore. I'll just wear my own shoes (which people were also dissing a bit, so maybe that's worth the $50)>>Stugang, you asked about alternative groups for donations. How about the>NSW bolting fund? Anyone else have a useful suggestion?

As this is a bit of a morality tale, how about the alternative group represents selfishness and debauchery? We could just use the money to get Shorty laid (assuming he can't arrange that himself at the saturday night Katoomba meat-market)

On 12/08/2012 Nick Clow wrote:>>Don't worry ODH, if Macciza chops the route, then all bets are off. I>won't hold you to 30 feet of soloing to the first bolt and I won't deem>you to be a pussy for not getting on it.>
Sounds like (if I'm interpreting Wide-speak correctly) the bolts might have got the chop. I don't want to abandon the whole thing though. How about, if the retros are gone, someone raps in and clips the first bolt and we go from there?

All the moneys going toward "safer this" and "rescue that" - I was thinking of evening it up a bit and donating toward something to make climbing a bit more real - like the 70's ya know. How about a battery powered angle grinder, that could spend alternate 6month stints at Macca's place and then Araps at Eduardos. Possibly overkill as surely there are SDS grinder attachment available at 1/4 the cost.

ODH my challenge as stands is too contrived. I'd be keen for a points in a day thing where you need to pick the point in where I fall in a heap. (Hint - bet on something early). But someone will need to write the list. Maybe a three stooges act with miguel and shorty.

On 12/08/2012 stugang wrote:>ODH my challenge as stands is too contrived. I'd be keen for a points>in a day thing where you need to pick the point in where I fall in a heap.>(Hint - bet on something early). But someone will need to write the list.>Maybe a three stooges act with miguel and shorty. >
My favorite milage day anywhere is the one at Cosmic. There's enough good stuff in the right grade range that you can tune it pretty well. So do you want it steadyish, or a few harder ones thrown in while you're fresh. What grades? There's a 23 there (Gentleman's Drag) which is an absolute must do.

>>How about a safe, not-the-softest gr20? And its open season on Elvis songs!>>I had a prick of a mate who used to do a passable rendition of Don't Be>Cruel every time I got shaky leg. It's pretty good training to try and>remain focused while you're being heckled...........:)