Triangle Choked - Honest question here. Why do boxing fans she'll out $80 (I think) to watch one fight, while MMA fans stream if the whole card is not fantastic and it's only $50?

For example this weekend (arguably) the best LHW in the history of the UFC is fighting and there were two threads on the front page bitching that the card is weak and people were either going to stream or go out and watch it.

I think right now there are two different demographics watching the two sports and that's why there is a difference in buys.

Cause boxing doesn't do a ppv every other week or every 2 weeks and its jist the more traditional thing to do. It will always be like that with boxing and always has been. Its just what everyone is used to.

Boxing awhile back was at a down spiral just like ufc is when Don king and bob arum would go head to head, they almost killed the ppv business (for boxing) because of it.

And its also the simple fact of promoting. They will go state to state to state for months pumping up the fight and the all access and 24/7 is a big help also.

Its just the more natural thing to do.

I don't think anyone has a real answer for it unless everyone in the world answers it.

Then is even fair to compare the PPV numbers? Aren't we all comparing apples to oranges?

Standup29 -
I am still waiting for someone to post a boxing card that did not have Floyd or Manny on the card that had over 500k ppv buys in 2012 or 2013.

I enjoy boxing and grew up watching it like most of us over 30 and know it doesn't have anywhere near the popularity it did in the 80's and 90's.

I will watch any combat sport on tv but there is no denying it as a whole is in the decline. MMA is not growing like it was but it certainly is very healthy as a whole especially if it is compared to boxing.

Sky box office in the UK don't release PPV numbers but it was widely reported that the Haye vs Chisora fight last year in the UK generated around 800,000 buys in 2012.

Considering the how small the UK population is (1/6) compared to the USA those numbers are very impressive. . Haye has pulled in some great numbers for Sky against also Harrision and Klitsckho. Even if Haye vs Fury only pulled in 300,000 this weekened for a country with 60 million compared to 300+ million for the USA those numbers would be extremely impressive.

It's unfortunate that those who criticize Boxing do not seem to know much about it. Boxing in Europe has grown exponentially this last decade and the trend is clearly going up and up. MMA has made no dent at all because it is still unknown to 99.9% of the population and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Do US boxing PPVs get purchased in the UK? I am quite familiar with boxing and live in Europe (Holland) and can never find any US fights anywhere on tv.

I am simply comparing apples to apples (us purchases) and do not believe outside of Floyd and Manny Boxing does better than MMA in the US on PPV (even minus the 2 top MMA draws) or on tv. Am I mistaken? If so I would love to see the numbers.

Not really because they are on very early in the morning unless it involves a British fighter. Hatton vs Mayweather in 2007 for example. That fight was widely reported to do around a million buys in the UK which was incredible. Sky show a lot of big fights.

I look at it this way. If the popularity of Basketball goes down in one state but increases in several other states wouldn't logic dictate that it's overall popularity is actually on the up?

Same with Boxing in Europe and around the world. There are more boxing shows put on now then a decade ago. Overall it is increasing in popularity. There will be new stars after Mayweather there always will be. Remember Rogan said in 2008 there would be no new stars after De la hoya, Hopkins and Taylor. He didn't even mention Pacquiao so that shows he wasn't able to predict the future very well at all. Boxing is on the way up overall and even in America it's making a comeback these past few years.

Exactly my point. Boxing is big in other places outside of the us only because their fights are shown live. When a big fight happens here in Europe, fighters will watch. There are also currently very few European Champions in MMA on the big stage.

Part of the reason MMA is big in North America and Brazil is because they have champions and see fights live atba decent hour. If guys in the UK started dominating they would get the big fights there and the sport would grow.

Truth is these top draws in Europe are not top draws in the US unless one of the big two is involved. That is how I see it. Which European fighter draws big in the US when they aren't fighting Manny or Floyd and what American fighter outside of Floyd is doing big draws in Europe without a Hatton or Kahn tied to them?

I see more nationalism in the results more than anything and I still do not see boxing being as big today (outside of the obvious exceptions) as 15 years ago. MMA on the other hand is growing. Talent is getting better and when a European born Champion happens in the UFC I think you will see what I mean. Same with Mexicans, when a born.and raised Mexican becomes champion or fights for a title you will see big numbers.

No you have missed the point and misunderstood my post entirely I'm afraid.

I actually said American fights were indeed shown live they are just not on PPV unless it involves a British fighter. The British fans have proven many times they are willing to stay up all night to watch their fighters. Plenty of Hatton and calazghe fights prove that. Hatton vs mayweather did over a million buys in the UK and Calzaghe vs Kessler sold over 60,000 tickets despite being on at 4 in the morning UK time.

You are rather limited in your outlook on sport. No-one is Europe cares about many American fighters whether they are boxers or MMA fighters. SO why would they care that the USA isn't excited about Haye vs Fury this weekend? Your arguments make no sense America isn't the only country in the world and it isn't the centre of the universe. Does it affect the English premier league that few people in America care about Man Utd vs Chelsea? Hell no they still rake in cash that the UFC could only ever dream of.

I don't think you really get it. Boxing is bigger and making more money as a global sport then is was 10 years ago and puts on a lot more shows then it did in the 1990's. As a whole it is growing not declining.

I think it may be growing in the UK there was a whole lot more coverage in the US in the 90's and early 2000 then today in the US. Two guys getting a ton of exposure is not the same as having multiple names in multiple divisions that mattered. Many fights were big not because 1 of 2 guys were involved. It's just different and not in a good way.

I grew up watching boxing and still watch today but it just isn't as big as it was as a whole. If it's different for you in the UK, lucky you. I wish it was as I just like combat sports and hope it turns around.

I'll tell you this, here in Holland, I know more people who watch the UFC than boxing and most could careless about either. I think I know more into rugby than combat sports tbh.

Triangle Choked - Honest question here. Why do boxing fans she'll out $80 (I think) to watch one fight, while MMA fans stream if the whole card is not fantastic and it's only $50?

For example this weekend (arguably) the best LHW in the history of the UFC is fighting and there were two threads on the front page bitching that the card is weak and people were either going to stream or go out and watch it.

I think right now there are two different demographics watching the two sports and that's why there is a difference in buys.

Cause boxing doesn't do a ppv every other week or every 2 weeks and its jist the more traditional thing to do. It will always be like that with boxing and always has been. Its just what everyone is used to.

Boxing awhile back was at a down spiral just like ufc is when Don king and bob arum would go head to head, they almost killed the ppv business (for boxing) because of it.

And its also the simple fact of promoting. They will go state to state to state for months pumping up the fight and the all access and 24/7 is a big help also.

Its just the more natural thing to do.

I don't think anyone has a real answer for it unless everyone in the world answers it.

Then is even fair to compare the PPV numbers? Aren't we all comparing apples to oranges?

I think the real answer is in the demographics. I don't think as many boxing fans know what streaming is. My step dad likes boxing and thinks MMA is barbaric. Hes 63 and wouldn't stream a fight for anything. He ordered the Mayweather fight too. He thought I was odd because I watched the fights on my laptop last time I visited. While he liked the features I showed him (the switching camera angles) he said he couldn't watch anything on a computer for very long.

As an MMA fighter I can say boxing & mma are hardly comparable. Boxing >MMA. Just because we love MMA doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic. When you have guys making 20-85 million a fight compared to main eventers like Liz Carmouche making 12k its obvious. Some undercard guys in boxing making 100k-1 million

emm...boxing is still huge in the latino and european markets, and as such the u.f.c "mma" is still were it was in 1996 in those markets as it was in the united states in that yr, understand the growth of the sport of mma in the united states since 2000, and ask yourself the growth potiential in those markets in the next 20 yrs? Now how many latinos are currently still huge boxing fans?? and of course last saturdays snooze fest did those numbers, they marketed that fight to the latino fan base beautifully , not to mention floyd is prolly the best heal in the history of boxing "who doesnt want to see him lose?" Personally i grew up a boxing freak living in vegas i loved boxing , but it is what it is, the days of Barrera vs. morales, taylor vs.chavez ,,delahoya vs. quartey,hagler vs.hearns, and shit what heavyweight divison ? are done man,the writing is on the wall however painfully slow it is,its like a novelty now, how many great fights do you get with the u.f.c every fkn yr?? look at programing if boxing was still the shit why isnt it on fox,fuel,fx, spike etc?? what happend to the contender?? boxing is evolving into the sport of mma,just like wrestling,jiujitsu,muythai etc..boxing is fkn boring compared to the sport of mma, ask yourself this how many boxing gyms are there nationwide? how many mma gyms,jiujitsu? how bout the spark of popularity in wrestling ?? stop a 16 yr old and ask him ,yup everyone knows floyd, but beyond that, do they know who brandon rios is? adrien "im a bonehead"broner? bernard hopkins? do they? resistance is futile.

Ummm first because hbo and showtime pay out the ass for boxing? I don't know why u listed fuel has a main station when no one gives a shit or even know fuel exist.

And yes people do know who hopkins, rios and broner is, if they didn't then broner wouldn't get big numbers.

Let me ask you this, does anyone know who the fuck john mayorga is? This guy who has been stuck on prelims now is in the main event on live tv?

I really don't know why you said hopkins when he is a legend in the sport. That's like telling mma fans that no one knows who randy couture is.

Boxing will always be their cause there is still world wide people who want to see the science.

How can you sit there and laugh at someone who wants to see a floyd mayweather fight and try to tell them they should enjoy someone like anderson who is just a low amatuer bum version of roy jones jr?

Your basically telling people to like mma over boxing cause even though you get low level boxing in mma, you got a couple of guys who can throw decent leg kicks and you get a added bonus in bjj.

So people should be forced to like mma fighters horrible hands over boxing cause they get the ground game?

That's kind of stupid if you ask me.

While I don't think either sport is dumb I don't think people say you should like MMA over boxing because it has ground fighting I think it is because it simulates a more realistic fight. We can all agree a pure boxer would struggle in mma. This is easy to translate this concept, who would beat who up in a real fight.

When people see boxing they see a fight more limited in what can be done. Sure it takes a real skilled person to box at high level but outside of that boxing ring they are vulnerable to wrestling, leg kicks, and submissions. One dimensional fighters have a hard time in mma for a reason. Life long BJJ practitioners struggle against guys with limited fight experience in comparison to guys who have been training mma for a limited time (10-20 years vs 3-5 years). And the same goes for wrestling, boxing or any type of KB. It's not that those disciplines are ineffective its the rules in each sport that limit them. By comparison, MMA has significantly less rules. Which in turn allows for more ways to win.

I think that is what many mean when they say fight fans should prefer mma over boxing. I agree but don't think anyone should tell anyone what they should prefer nor do I call people names or bash another sport to prove one is better.

MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ - As an MMA fighter I can say boxing & mma are hardly comparable. Boxing >MMA. Just because we love MMA doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic. When you have guys making 20-85 million a fight compared to main eventers like Liz Carmouche making 12k its obvious. Some undercard guys in boxing making 100k-1 million

To be honest the worst thing about that interview is that Lou came off more educated about both sports and more classy than Rogan. He complemented MMA and basically said the two sports can co exist but that MMa just isn't his cup of tea and to him it seems like pit bulls or whatever.

He even handled to Chuck Liddell and Mayweather question perfectly by saying they both may be right.

Rogan on the other hand calls him and all boxing supporters a dying breed that their will be no new stars and that the sport is being swallowed by MMA.

All the agresion and mud slinging was from Rogan and that was indicative of MMA fans and UFC PR campaigns at the time. Boxers were basically goated into talking about MMA because they were being slammed in the media from every angle regarding the UFC.

The bottom line is Rogan was wrong. And as someone who claims to leave their ego at the door should step back ad apologize. He never has made this right.

Well we shall have to agree to disagree about Bisping but I can tell you for a fact he is an unknown over here and is far more recognisable in the USA then he is here. When Hardy fought GSP there was zero coverage here in any major newspaper. The sport of MMA only enjoyed a very brief publicity spell when a well known celebrity went out with an MMA fighter but that quickly died out years ago.

A ppv with Bisping would be embarrassing trust me I know how people generally perceive MMA here and it's not in a very good way to put it mildly. They are seen as a bunch of homos rolling on the floor fighting dishonourably. That isn't going to change with some simple UFC promotion for a PPV. Again as I already said before the NFL failed miserably to try and promote it's brand here.

There have been some British success in other sports but that has never translated into increased viewership. Basketball for example but no-one here has ever cared if someone of British nationality played in the NBA just like they didn't give a shit that Dan hardy challenged for the UFC title.

Boxing however is on the up and there are more shows up and down the country then there were in the 1990's. It's doing better then ever. Haye vs Fury sold out quickly this weekend and Froch vs groves sold out in 11 minutes. It's never been in better health. Boxing as an entity encompasses the entire world not just the USA. Football or Soccer as you people incorrectly call it just does fine despite the fact it is ignored by most Americans. Im fact the premier league in England latest TV contract is more then 5.5 billion pounds (8.8 billion dollars) not including gate receipts or sponsorship etc etc.

Anyway man got to go now it's 8:30 here and I'm out for the weekend. See ya

Enjoy it mate, 9:30 here and we don't have to agree. I enjoy a nice debate. I'm going to enjoy some beers and relax with the lady.

ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun - Boxing as a sport is dead, people will pay to watch 2 or 3 fighters. UFC is a brand, people will pay regardless of who fights.

They may pay but the buys for the most part are dog shit

in 2012 ten of the top 15 ppvs came from UFC, 4 from boxing 1 from WWE. Of the 4 from boxing they were all from Pac and Floyd

No shit, that's cause they neee to put on one wvery other week or 2 so at the wnd of the year there totol buy rate isn't a joke.

Ufc is quantity not quality

That is because Floyd and Manny can't fight every month or every othet month.

Quality for boxing appears to only be 2 guys based on your logic.

Jcc and jm are good enough for ppv obviously. Boxing is on premium tv and gets major numbers. Better so far this year than the ufc on free tv. Boxings model has never been about ppv. Always premium tv

Could you post these premium numbers that are better than MMA?

And don't full yourself, boxing was a PPV sport not a premium tv sport since Don King made it so. The major stars have been PPV draws and today there are only 2 big boxing draws and the rest do not draw.

MMA has the same issue but take the top 2 out of both and MMA is a better draw.

Damn how many different sites you have to go to to get that? I been looking for past 30 mins and only found 3 lol. Then again I think cause I was looking for nost of showtime fron this year.

Great find sir

Indeed great find. Now lets see how many topped UFC on Fox 8? None I think. Prelims on FX avg higher than those as well, I think only 2 were under 1 million viewers. Fight nights on FX also averaged higher numbers as well. That is just any fight the UFC put on. I left out FS1 numbers as it is a new network and even if you put them all in, the average is still higher for all live fights on tv.

I am very impressed you got that list though as I was looking them up earlier and it was a pain in the ass! Well done!

The fights you are comparing are on a channels with 20-30 million subscribers vs 90 million.

Basically boxing is averaging UFC on Spike numbers on pay channels in less than a third of the homes UFC is in.

And you want to compare HBO against Fox numbers? If Mayweather and Canelo fought on Fox it would be like a Super Bowl. The numbers would blow anything UFC has ever done out of the water by millions and Millions.

UFC 160 'Cain vs. Bigfoot 2' - 380k <---This was a HW championship fight which is suppose to be the biggest fights of them all, and yet lowest ppv buyrate. Pathetic UFC cant even promote a HW champion.....

UFC 161 'Henderson vs. Evans' - 180k

UFC 162 'Anderson vs. Weidman' - 550k

UFC 163 'Aldo vs. Korean Zombie' - 170k

We are toward the end of the year and these numbers are MUCH lower than the previous 5 years. I know there is a rumor UFC is for sale which is probably untrue, but if the UFC is on the decline which it is, I can def see Zuffa cashing in on its popularity before it dies off like pro wrestling of 90's.

Why don't you add the total number of ppv buys the UFC did in 2012 and compare them to the total number boxing did? I think we'll see a clear winner then.

You can even go October to October, keep it in the fiscal year and count this last Mayweather fight.

How would that make sense? The UFC does many more PPV's a year than boxing. Compute the average number of viewers per event, perhaps?

Triangle Choked - Honest question here. Why do boxing fans she'll out $80 (I think) to watch one fight, while MMA fans stream if the whole card is not fantastic and it's only $50?

For example this weekend (arguably) the best LHW in the history of the UFC is fighting and there were two threads on the front page bitching that the card is weak and people were either going to stream or go out and watch it.

I think right now there are two different demographics watching the two sports and that's why there is a difference in buys.

Cause boxing doesn't do a ppv every other week or every 2 weeks and its jist the more traditional thing to do. It will always be like that with boxing and always has been. Its just what everyone is used to.

Boxing awhile back was at a down spiral just like ufc is when Don king and bob arum would go head to head, they almost killed the ppv business (for boxing) because of it.

And its also the simple fact of promoting. They will go state to state to state for months pumping up the fight and the all access and 24/7 is a big help also.

Its just the more natural thing to do.

I don't think anyone has a real answer for it unless everyone in the world answers it.

Then is even fair to compare the PPV numbers? Aren't we all comparing apples to oranges?

I think the real answer is in the demographics. I don't think as many boxing fans know what streaming is. My step dad likes boxing and thinks MMA is barbaric. Hes 63 and wouldn't stream a fight for anything. He ordered the Mayweather fight too. He thought I was odd because I watched the fights on my laptop last time I visited. While he liked the features I showed him (the switching camera angles) he said he couldn't watch anything on a computer for very long.

That's true. My father in law is a huge boxing fan. He cringes some times when I have an MMA fight on. Soon as it hits the ground he leaves. Lol

MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ - As an MMA fighter I can say boxing & mma are hardly comparable. Boxing >MMA. Just because we love MMA doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic. When you have guys making 20-85 million a fight compared to main eventers like Liz Carmouche making 12k its obvious. Some undercard guys in boxing making 100k-1 million

MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ -
As an MMA fighter I can say boxing & mma are hardly comparable. Boxing >MMA. Just because we love MMA doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic. When you have guys making 20-85 million a fight compared to main eventers like Liz Carmouche making 12k its obvious. Some undercard guys in boxing making 100k-1 million

Voted up for honesty.

It is what it is. I think more and more MMA guys are wishing they went into boxing haha

MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ -
As an MMA fighter I can say boxing & mma are hardly comparable. Boxing >MMA. Just because we love MMA doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic. When you have guys making 20-85 million a fight compared to main eventers like Liz Carmouche making 12k its obvious. Some undercard guys in boxing making 100k-1 million

MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ -
As an MMA fighter I can say boxing & mma are hardly comparable. Boxing >MMA. Just because we love MMA doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic. When you have guys making 20-85 million a fight compared to main eventers like Liz Carmouche making 12k its obvious. Some undercard guys in boxing making 100k-1 million

Well we shall have to agree to disagree about Bisping but I can tell you for a fact he is an unknown over here and is far more recognisable in the USA then he is here. When Hardy fought GSP there was zero coverage here in any major newspaper. The sport of MMA only enjoyed a very brief publicity spell when a well known celebrity went out with an MMA fighter but that quickly died out years ago.

A ppv with Bisping would be embarrassing trust me I know how people generally perceive MMA here and it's not in a very good way to put it mildly. They are seen as a bunch of homos rolling on the floor fighting dishonourably. That isn't going to change with some simple UFC promotion for a PPV. Again as I already said before the NFL failed miserably to try and promote it's brand here.

There have been some British success in other sports but that has never translated into increased viewership. Basketball for example but no-one here has ever cared if someone of British nationality played in the NBA just like they didn't give a shit that Dan hardy challenged for the UFC title.

Boxing however is on the up and there are more shows up and down the country then there were in the 1990's. It's doing better then ever. Haye vs Fury sold out quickly this weekend and Froch vs groves sold out in 11 minutes. It's never been in better health. Boxing as an entity encompasses the entire world not just the USA. Football or Soccer as you people incorrectly call it just does fine despite the fact it is ignored by most Americans. Im fact the premier league in England latest TV contract is more then 5.5 billion pounds (8800000000.00 dollars) not including gate receipts or sponsorship etc etc.

Anyway man got to go now it's 8:30 here and I'm out for the weekend. See ya

Actually I just read the other day that boxing has seen a huge increase in participation over the last 5 years in Britain. Something like 25% more are taking part in boxing at least once a week. I've also heard from friends in London and Scotland that boxing is much, much bigge there than MMA. Even amongst the younger generation.

Not long back they started reintroducing boxing into school PE programs, much in the same way (i assume) that Americans get wrestling in PE.

in order to really understand the reality behind the debate, you'd have to breakdown the viewing into age and geographic demographics in a pretty scientific way. you'd also have to include things like streaming and how that skews the results. it's too complicated to sort out and know what the situation will be 5 years, 10 years, or 30 years from now.

that won't stop blowhards from writing essays about why they're right and everyone else is an idiot.

the main thing i take from this thread is a confusion about why guys like man meets fate, EatonBeaver, and Jons Forsberg would spend so much time and effort talking shit about MMA on an MMA forum. i grew up watching boxing, and i like MMA a bit more now. either way, i wouldn't spend my time being douchey enough to bash boxing on a boxing forum.

MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ -
As an MMA fighter I can say boxing & mma are hardly comparable. Boxing >MMA. Just because we love MMA doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic. When you have guys making 20-85 million a fight compared to main eventers like Liz Carmouche making 12k its obvious. Some undercard guys in boxing making 100k-1 million

agreed

until UFC starts paying the fighters better it will always look bushleague to the public and it is.

Jons Forsberg - " EatonBeaver, and Jons Forsberg would spend so much time and effort talking shit about MMA on an MMA forum "

we have been MMA fans prolly since you wre sucking your mom's nipples you dipshit. We're speaking reality, MMA isn't " swallowing boxing" by any stretch of imagination. Wake up moron.

you have no idea how old i am or how long i've been a fan. i also didn't insult you once in that message. if you get a kick out of being a troll, that's fine. it just doesn't make much sense to me. not sure why that gets you riled up.

MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ -
As an MMA fighter I can say boxing & mma are hardly comparable. Boxing >MMA. Just because we love MMA doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic. When you have guys making 20-85 million a fight compared to main eventers like Liz Carmouche making 12k its obvious. Some undercard guys in boxing making 100k-1 million

/end of debate

Yes. Thats end the debate by looking at the lowest possoble main event example (women no less) in mma and comparing it to the highest possible examples from boxing.

Let alone this thread isnt even about how much the athletes make, rather the overall popularity and whether one is declining or improving.

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