Player Previews: The Wings

For better or worse, Don Nelson loves wings. They can go big against smalls and small against bigs. They’re better shooters than the power players and better rebounders than the ball handlers. Their flexibility is essential for the variety of circumstances Nellie ball creates, so it should come as no surprise that three of the top four players in minutes per game (still left on the team) are on the list below. With the rapidly improving skills of our power players and the quantity (if not quality) of small guards on the roster, we’ll soon see whether the wings continue to dominate the rotation. Here’s what Nelson has to choose from:

Stephen Jackson

What he did: Jackson started off last season asking to be the man (and to be paid accordingly). Then he shot 41% from the field and led the NBA in turnovers (by a full half turnover above second place). I tend to think playing the second most minutes per game in the NBA didn’t help his efficiency or focus, but it certainly did his body no favors. Jackson finally called it a season in the final quarter of the year, logging a total of 59 games. The team went 21-38 (.356) with Jackson and 8-15 (.348) without him. Despite putting up a career year statistically, his absence didn’t exactly decimate the team’s performance. But if his leadership role on the court was thrown into question by his performance last season, his performance this off-season has ended all doubt. Publicly longing for a winning team, Jackson no longer wants to be the man — and certainly doesn’t appear to want to take responsibility for any of what we suffered through last year. Jackson kicked off media day two years ago by showing off his new “praying hands with gun” tattoo. We’ll find out on Monday whether he’s inked “It Ain’t Me” on his body this off-season.

What I’m hoping for: Unrealistically, I’m hoping that Jackson’s relationship with the team (and fans) isn’t beyond repair. If used in moderation on the court, he possesses a mix of offensive, defensive, and ball-distributing skills crucial for the Warriors success. But when played too many minutes and without any accountability for bad decision-making, his propensity for bad shots, gambling defense, and risky passes swamps the positive aspects of his game. At 25-30 minutes a night, I still feel Jackson could add a lot to this team. Realistically, I’m hoping that some GM around the league strongly agrees with the preceding sentence.

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The big question: Will he be here? If our double-for-nothing trade with New Jersey doesn’t facilitate a trade for an established veteran, it may go to help Jackson exit stage left. With camp starting on Monday, the logical time for a minimum-disruption trade would be the next three days.

Corey Maggette

What he did: Corey came to the Warriors with the decked stacked against him given his too-rich contract. He didn’t do himself any favors early in the year by shooting too much, not passing enough, and playing defense only Jamal Crawford could love. He struggled early with persistent hamstring issues and had already lived up to his reputation of being a fragile player within his first few months on the squad. But somewhere in the middle of the year, Nelson moved Maggette to the bench, asked him to focus on aggressively attacking the basket, and reduced his exposure as a back-up power forward. The changes seemed to re-energize him — he played at a faster pace, focused on the best part of his game (getting to the line), and showed sustained bursts of defensive effort. He’s still not worth the money — particularly as a bench player — but his second half performance at least provided a vision of how Maggette could become a regular contributor to a run-and-gun Nelson squad.

What I’m hoping for: As with every year, health will be key for Corey. He’s noticeably more aggressive when he’s comfortable with his body. If his minutes need to be carefully monitored, so be it. We should have sufficient depth this year to make 35+ minute nights for Corey a thing of the past. And although it may be too late in his career for any real hope of change, I’d love to see Maggette find a way to combine his head-down, bowling-ball approach with degree of ball movement. He did a better job looking for his teammates at the end of last year, but there’s still tons of room for improvement.

The big question: Where will his minutes come from? If Corey remains a 3 / sometimes 4, he’ll be fighting for minutes with Jackson, Azubuike, Morrow, Randolph, Wright, Moore, and George. It’s hard to see him getting 31 minutes a night, as he did last year, and unclear how he’ll respond to getting less time. He was a good soldier going to the bench last year — when his minutes were still a sure bet. If he’s on the bench and a lesser player in the rotation, we could have another veteran longing for a new home. Of course, if he’s still getting 31 minutes a night, it may soon be the fans, not Corey, hoping for a change of address.

Kelenna Azubuike

What he did: Just about everything the Warriors asked him to do. He brought much needed consistency, defense, and toughness. In a season wracked by injuries, he ended up playing the most minutes of anyone on the team. He appeared to force his offensive game a bit at times, to the detriment of his teammates, but those moments were the exception, not the rule. In a perfect world, I still don’t see Azubuike as a starter, but he filled the role admirably last year and has grown into a nice complementary player, adjusting his game to the others on the court. There were lots of problems with the Warriors last season, but Azubuike was not one of them.

What I’m hoping for: I’m optimistic that Azubuike isn’t finished developing as a player. In particular, I’d love to see him continue to focus on the defensive end of the court. With Ellis and Curry to slight to guard bigger, stronger shooting guards and Morrow still adapting to the speed of the NBA game, it pretty much falls to Azubuike and Jackson to be the stoppers. Given Jackson’s uncertain future, more defensive toughness out a Kelenna would be a big boost for the team.

The big question: How much better can Kelenna get? He’s entering his third full year in the league and still seems to be adding pieces to his game. His shooting percentages climbed across the board last year, despite taking significantly more shots. He’s quietly become one of the best three point shooters in the NBA and could benefit greatly this year from a healthy Monta, drawing defenses inside with penetration.

Anthony Morrow

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What he did: The short answer, at least for me, is that Morrow (along with Randolph and Turiaf) made quite a few unwatchable games watchable. His starting debut against the Clippers is an instant classic. His jump shot is a thing of beauty, he’s already demonstrated his toughness, and he’s appears to still be climbing the steep part of the learning curve. Even if he never develops an all-around game, his shooting is likely good enough on its own to keep him employed in the NBA for years to come. But fortunately for us, Morrow’s late season surge showed him improving in all areas — from passing, to defense, to rebounding. Randolph and Curry will get all the early attention this year, but Morrow could end up making a bigger jump in terms of consistent quality play than either of them.

What I’m hoping for: Enough defense to keep him on the court. Don Nelson is famous for the individualized (read: inconsistent) standards he holds players to when it comes to errors that will get them yanked from games. Morrow found himself frequently heading to the bench after defensive errors, but avoided getting discouraged and showed significant improvement towards the end of the year. As his passing instincts and rebounding toughness improve, he’ll have other areas of his game besides scoring to justify his time on the court. Hopefully those improvements along with some physical development will allow him to play average NBA defense.

The big question: What type of protest we should stage if Morrow isn’t in the three point shootout this year. The man nearly shot a higher percentage from behind the arc than inside it (.467 vs. .482). Now, if we could just get him the 5.2 three point attempts a night Stephen Jackson had last season.

Devean George

What he did: Shot under 40% (for the third consecutive year, and seventh year out of ten) and averaged more turnovers than assists. He played nearly 17 minutes a night last year for the Mavs, however, which should give us all pause when considering his place on the current Warriors squad. He looks like nothing more than an expiring contract, but that might be a flawed assumption since the Warriors traded out another potentially expiring deal to land him.

What I’m hoping for: That he lives up to his placement on this list as a wing, and isn’t another undersized Nelson power player. He can’t shoot, his best defensive days are behind him, and there are better reserve options for all the potential skills he brings to the court. The real training camp battle to watch might be to see whether George or Claxton deserves the inactive list more.

The big question: How many times this season we’re going to have to hear that George is a “winner” based on his time in LA.

Ultimately, the Warriors’ problem with the wing spot isn’t a lack of talent. They have four NBA quality players bringing different individual skills to the court. The challenge at the position is figuring out whether any one of these guys deserves significantly more time than the others. And if the answer is no, it’ll be a challenge to keep them all happy playing reduced, but roughly equivalent, minutes. Finding Jackson a new home would not only make him happy, but would also have the added benefit of clearing up a bit of a depth chart log-jam (assuming we don’t just get another wing in return, which would be a classic Warriors move).

Up next, the big men.

Adam Lauridsen

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Nellie Interview I: “I’m very content with taking what we have and building on it. I think that’s what this franchise should do. I like our young guys. I think they’re going… if they just move along together… we’ve got eight guys that, if they move together in just a natural process of getting better, I think this team could really be a nice team.”

Who are the Elite 8? ME, SC, AM, KA, AR, AB, RT, BW. Got to be.

monsta

Elite 8: Jackson, not Curry.

Curry gets rotation time later in the season at best.

Kommon Senze

If you believe the emphasis is on the “natural process of getting better”, and take that to mean ‘long term,’ then I think Curry fits.

Otherwise, I think Maggette also has to be put into that list, because he stated that he was still a part of the rotation (his 6th man).

petaluman

Finally, TC is about to start!

I think Nelson implied that the 4 spot is Randolph’s to lose. That’s fair enough, given his play since late last season. BW has been working out back east and wasn’t on the SL team, so he deserves at least a look, though.

He didn’t plug Curry in there as a game 1 starter, but it does sound like we could be seeing an increasing amount of a Curry/Ellis backcourt. Of course, it may not pan out, like the Dunleavy-as-PF experiment.

It doesn’t look like they followed up on Riley’s mentioning AR playing some 3 and 5. Giving him SF minutes would allow us to use a Randolph/Wright frontcourt. AR might well be as big as Moore now, and could take some of his minutes at center.

dr_john

COM:

I doubt those are the eight (8) that Nelson had in mind. But it illustrates a very negative point about how he views the roster of fifteen players. Namely that he fails to see the depth which exists beyond eight.

So even if your “eight are enough”, well then I actually think we go over the opposite edge and undervalue SJ, CM, MM and CJW, not to mention the other three.

There are two huge problems in all of this.

ONE: there is no real meritocracy. If there were, the minutes would be very different. A coach with COURAGE would make it so. And I would be able to follow that. “Eight” is so artificial, such a made-up number. It’s disappointing to think that he is going to ENGINEER a complete season based on that perception of a much deeper roster.

TWO: and more important, this is a coach who looks and sounds and has shown that he is more interested in finding reasons to sit the young players than in looking FOR reasons to INCLUDE them.

I think this team could be a really “nice” team also. Just as it is—although I’ve been a-begging for two roster upgrades since last June.

Eight—is NOT enough. The smallest spark of optimism I am feeling on this topic is the Scott Roth hire. That new, small voice is one I hope to hear soon, and hope Nelson will find something useful from it.

Kommon Senze

Randolph is 7’0, 222, according to himself. Moore is listed at 6’11, 225.

AR’s also shown an ability to block or challenge shots, which is something Moore has never done with any consistency.

Yeah, I’d say he should be able to spot some minutes at C if required. It all comes down to how Nellie uses his rotations.

I’d like to see very little of Moore, because that means Randolph, Wright, Biedrins, and Turiaf are doing enough to earn most of the big-man minutes. I’d like to think that Moore would best be utilized as an injury insurance player.

dr_john

Is there some reason that the Warriors, having sand kicked in their faces by CJW, would not trade him to the Celtics for Lester Hudson?

In a general rating of all of the PGs available in this year’s draft, each had his own strengths and weakness. DraftExpress.com’s overall evaluation had Curry, Lawson, Rubio, and Hudson as the top 4. Flynn, Evans, Jennings etc. all had strengths as well.

It would be win-win. And then we could watch CJW play some defense.

The Oracle

Meir says:

“Guys play well they will play. Play poorly, that isn’t start missing, but not doing the things they are supposed to do, and they’ll get yanked. ”

I couldn’t disagree more with that premise when Nelson coaches.

Young players get yanked at even one simple mistake. Vets are left in that are having truly horrible games.

I’m a fan of SJ for the most part, but he had some god awful games, shooting poorly, taking bad shots, turning the ball over, not getting back on D, and he NEVEr got pulled.

On the other hand, I saw players like BW having absolutely wonderful games, and watched them get yanked for one mistake and not given another chance, not only in that game but for the next few weeks.

Where did you come up with the delusion that Nelson plays the guys that are playing best? He might play what he thinks are his best players, but if those “best” players are having an off night, Nelson rarely sits them and tries a young player. And young players playing well don’t get the luxury of even a single mistake. I think you’ve got it completely wrong.

The Oracle

As a coach, there is a big flaw to the “play the best players” theory Meir advocates. .

Young players aren’t always the best players. Sometimes there are older players a little or quite a bit better. But you can sometimes see amazing potential in a young player. The older player might be smarter, understand the game better, make fewer mistakes, but the young player has amazing skills and athleticism but doesn’t have the smarts of the more experienced player. Believe it or not, playing well is as much about playing smart as having skills imo.

Sometimes you can see that he could in the long run become much much better than the older player ever was or ever could be.

So if you simply go with the play the best player, you end up playing the older guy who at the moment is the better player and sitting the young player with amazing potential.

The problem with that strategy is that practice alone is not enough to develop and motivate a young player. IMO, you have to find a way to get minutes for the young promising players in order to speed their development. You have to think long term. You have to allow them to play and make mistakes and with your help, learn from those mistakes. Learning to play the game smart is a big part of their development from PT, and just as important as the skill development they can do much of in practice.

If you only play the best players, and sit the young promising ones, then in a few years those young promising players are far less developed then they should be and could have been, but now they’re your older players and your starters and you’ve missed an opportunity to have a better team than you have.

I firmly believe that you have to find PT for your best young prospects, even if tha moment they aren’t the best player at their position. That doesn’t mean starting them ahead of a better player, but it does mean finding them consistent minutes and working with them to reach their potential.

I have also observed that the motivation level dramatically increases if a player know he is going to get chances to play. That’s just human nature. They practice harder and better.

Blackgsd

So few props to Dr John…

Well sir, your short story at 185 had me rolling. That, so far, has been the best post of the year.

Son of Ahmed

A few thoughts on the Nellie press conference. (Kudos to TK for furnishing the transcript.)

It was nice to see that Nelson is putting his faith in the young guys and promising that their development will be the prime goal this season; but when did we last hear him say that? A little over a year ago at the Randolph/Hendrix rookie press conference. We all know how that turned out.

It was nice to read that Nelson is going to play Maggette limited minutes and play him in the 6th man role. All of that is great news. But then, it was VERY disappointing to read that Nelson intends to use Maggette as a power forward again in spots. Maggette at four equals fail. It is decisions like this that validate all the criticism he gets. Oh, the frustration of being a Dubs fan.

It was nice to see Nelson compliment Randolph’s work ethic this summer by saying, “And now his work ethic’s as good as anybody on the team. You know, he and Morrow are my hardest workers right now.” But then he followed that up with, “And he was about the laziest rookie I ever had last year.” Those little zingers add up in the mind of prideful guys like Randolph.

I think what stood out most was the extent he went out of his way to kiss up to Jackson. At one point he said something like, “I genuinely love him.” Ok, Don, keep sucking.

Why does he do it? Well it might have something to do with the fact that Jackson has been hanging with Monta and Harrington all summer, two Nelson detractors. Nelson is trying to curry favor with Jackson. He’s scared as hell of getting into a scrap with Jackson. So be prepared fans. Whatever Jackson wants this season, Jackson will get. Nelson will do whatever he can to please Jackson, and he will have no control of him. The ungrateful child will resent the lack of resolve of the parent. The child will scorn and ridicule him. This is going to be the locus of turmoil on the team.

I’m glad that Riley recognize the youthful promise of this team. I’m afraid though that they won’t be able to hold it all together.

Hopefully my sh*t colored glasses are misleading me. Right felty?

Nellie’sbiggestfan

Dr. John

So now Nellie lacks “COURAGE” because his rotations don’t make sense to you. Disagreeing with coaches is a huge part of a blog like this but why the personal attacks ? You disappoint me, I thought you were better than that. Both the T-Wolves and the Thunder have taken the play the kids approach to building a team. They have basically told their fans that they will suck for a few years while they “develop” their players. How is that courageous.? Their GMs are trying to keep from being really evaluated for as many years as possible. What if Kevin Durant decides to bolt Ok city and head for a bigger market ? What if Al Jefferson gets sick of all the losing in Minnesota ? I would really like to get some clarification on exactly who should be playing more and why instead of these endless references to “young players” who exactly are you talking about ? Wasn’t it Nellie who first gave Ellis playing time with the w’s?

meir34

SOA and others. Duh. Isn’t it at all possible in your world for all the stories about Randolph and the attitude and practice to be accurate? Then the family steps in and basically goes public to try and pressure the coach to use him more, no matter how the practices were going. BG was his agent and basically told him to stop whining and work harder, then he’ll get his minutes. He fired BG. Doesn’t that tell you anything? And can you imagine BG being harsh or sucking up to his biggest client’s coach at the risk of this? He was trying to help AR get a better attitude and work harder. His talent wasn’t what was in question.

Anyway, the new agent, same agency basically told him the same. He buckled down and really put things right as far as practices went. No doubt the military background had someone in his family, likely the father tell him basically what BG did. He practiced harder. Did what the coaches asked him to (note Coaches not Coach) and the rest is history.

Now AR pretty much confirms the same account. And all appears fine between coach, family and budding star. I think it was perfect handling of the situation. Nellie working well with young players was a legendary strength at Milwaukee, with Dirk at Dallas, and with Timmy, Mitch, Mully, Spree (despite the latter’s attitude) with the Warriors. And it worked very well with AR. Thank heavens he didn’t buckle under to the pouting and family pressures. AR wouldn’t be half the player he is now and the coach would have correctly lost the respect of his other players.

Keep up with the old song, however. It’s your right to sing the Nellie is always wrong album. But I won’t buy it.

dr_john

nbf:

I gave you my minutes and rotations already. You don’t need to ask me for clarification. It’s in print, this blog and the last.

If I am going to clarify anything for you, it is that my minutes/rotations include players which, though currently on the Warriors’ roster, would not be on mine. A sop to reality.

Nelson’s rotations make perfect sense to me, and they suck. Seriously. And he is going to have to face the disaster of repeating last year’s mistakes with clarity of mind, and humility, a fresh take and the COURAGE to manage any player who is a detriment to the team and its chances to win games. Especially Lackson.

Your points are scatterred and disingenuous. What if…what if???

OKC and Minn have seen what was not working. And changed it.

OKC tried to get an NBA vet to coach, one they hope can relate to the players, and found a crying need on defense and so brought in a defensive coach who has major credibility for the Chicago defenses which were so competitive just 4 or 5 years ago. And a top notch resume, otherwise. And Maurice Cheeks now, also.

Minn is not who you think they are. Their changes are GM, Coach(es) and, as you will see, culture.

SOA talks about the “locus of turmoil” on this team.

SOA is wrong about the locus. And so are you. From the day of the Nelson hire I said that Ringling Brothers was coming to town, and I have had to accept the reality of it, and the extension. And now, the offer of a “free” 6th year. Don Nelson is like Pigpen in Peanuts, it’s always just swirling around him.

Don’t get me wrong. Coaches do have perogatives, and sometimes a little “tough love” can be productive. Sloan, Jackson, Karl, Adelman, Popovich, VanGundy etc.—are part of something larger and don’t seem to need to instigate the grief. They are not so open to charges of manipulation, unfair dealings and legal suits. Why is that?

And nbf, one more thing. ALL good coaches are going to be tested, and need to show courage.

Don’t even try to argue that.

dr_john

Meir:

In the Keith Smart interview, before the 4 minute mark, he mentioned about how Randolph was practicing by himself with a coach. I’m not going to go back and listen to it again. Smart takes zero responsibility for the “Randolph situation”.

I want you to explain, at any length you wish, how, and I do mean EXACTLY HOW, Anthony Randolph came into this Warriors’ organization and, as he “went astray”, how NEITHER of these two things occurred:

1. His coaching staff reminded/instructed/insisted on the proper habits and attitude, and

2. The “veteran leadership” on the team (remember the Cap’n and all the press around the Maggette signing?) did nothing or said nothing to “clue him in”?

NO speculation permitted. Just the facts.

I am going to admit to you that I think you have the entire situation wrong. And I am prepared to read again, the Randolph quote about how he could have been more focused or mature or whatever. Fine.

But I need to know, how can a multi-multi million$ business even allow this to have happened with one of their most prized employees.

Jules

I’m glad DAN has been reading my posts here about Curry and put many SL-only observers in their seat.

What say you, DAN?

-But also, we were lucky enough to draft Curry. That’s a player that we coveted.

-But we’ve got I think what’s going to be a special player some day.

Like I said, Curry will be our PG – DAN?

-What I do (know) is we’re going to be very small in the backcourt this year. (read: Curry/Ellis!) Our 1s and 2s are going to be small, so we’ll have to compensate defensively for some of those things. And do some scheming defensively to help cover that.

Just the facts, DAN?

-Curry’s a better passer than people think. He does see the game pretty well. So that’s one guy that helps the passing situation.

-I think I pretty well had him down. I wasn’t disappointed at all. (summer league)

I think DAN will get another chance, so I’ll put him back with a 90-day probation period (until end of December) and see how he does with his NEW promise to play the Yoots! Otherwise, it’s back to my dog house – comprende?

MOFO’s were all over this blog and they took heed!

Let’s see…

HD-TV!

dr_john

Oracle:

Good posts: sometimes it’s just important to say what we saw on the court and on the bench last year. Just good to leave the “stats” out of it.

I think on a good “team”, win or lose, every player will feel like he is a part of it, and of some value. This is an important skill for a head coach to posess.

The flip side of the “short rotation” viewpoint is how the Sloan/Stockton, Scott/Paul, Jackson/Bryant (to name a few combos) rotation minutes have worked out.

Sometimes ego serving the team ends up serving itself best.
Sometimes coaches, the best ones, are able to take the broader view.

Jules

Brandan Wright will be our starting PF. Nothing’s changed.

-“NELSON: Going in, that would be my idea. But Randolph is young, he’s got to win his job. I’m not going to give it to him. I would think from what I’ve seen that he’ll earn that starting spot. If I’m surprised… if Wright or somebody else is the better player, then he’ll get the spot.”

Get ready for more of Anthony Randolph at the SF spot.

Havoc!! You guys ain’t seen notin’ yet!

AB, BW & AR will compensate our “little guys” and they will be rewarded BIG time!!!

Compensation for compensating will only cost a dime!

CURSE OF MULLIN

Monsta/KS: Nellie was talking about his young 8 who he sees developing nicely over time, not his top 8 players right now. So SJ and CM would not be included.

CURSE OF MULLIN

If the guy giving that interview is the Don Nelson we see on game night this year, sign me up. However, as SoA points out, he said similar things about playing the youth last year and then he couldn’t bring himself to do it. Will having another year under their (yoots’) belts be enough to convince him to really let them play this year? Maybe. As I’ve said, my fingers are crossed (but I’m not holding my breath). If Nellie just does what he told the press yesterday he would do, this will be an exciting year.

Re the Jackson discussion in the interview, I came away with the distinct impression that, if they can get rid of him this year, they will. I think he’s gone by the trade deadline.

Jules

COM, Monsta/et al needs to read your post a lot more closely and pay attention to the description: “YOUNG GUYS”…

How can anyone say a 31-year old chucker is a young guy?

Meerly saying… probably meer speak?

Nellie’sbiggestfan

dr. john

you sure do cut other teams and coaches a lot of slack, but you see the Nellie glass as being always half empty. I guess you would rather have dunleavy back instead of jackson and you would have preferred to draft johnny flynn instead of curry. What you say is a culture change in minnesota is really a rookie gm making bad moves. Apparently you would prefer the w’s to get rid all their vets, fire nellie , hire a new gm and coach with no previous experience, let the team suck for three years an hope they get better after that. Give me Nellie ,with his drama, and his winning traack record over that any day of the week.

Son of Ahmed

Dr. John,
Did you read the transcript? You didn’t read into fear into Nelson’s overconciliatory tone? You don’t see how this fear will backfire and undermine Nellie’s authority over Jackson and eventually the team? Weren’t you the one predicting that AB and the other bigs will also rebel?

Son of Ahmed

Meir,

Try stepping out of the playbook for a second. It’s amazing how your voluminous musings take root from such a small seed. My point about AR is a simple one. Whether or not Nelson deserves credit for making AR a better player, eventually Nelson’s public put downs which serve to make him look like a big shot at the expense of the player create resentment, especially in proud athletes. Saying that AR was one of the laziest rookies he ever had was just self-serving and dumb. Everyone sees through it, and if Randolph read it, I’m sure he resented it. And you disagree with that?

meir34

Hey if. among the young guys, anybody looks much better in practice they likely will start or at least play quite a bit. If a rookie looks great, look for hi to get good minutes before long. If he’s doing things wrong in practice or doesn’t practice enough, he won’t play until he does. This isn’t just Nellie, its as lot of coaches around the leagy. How else should it be?

If a kid is going to the wrong place on offense or doesn”t slide when he should, fight through a screen the right way-wouldn’t you rather have him learn to do it right before he gets more minutes?

meir34

Pimping for a guy you haven’t seen at the pro level and is just beginning is okay but doesn’t expect much company.

SC comes from a basketball family so if dad was around at all he much have picked up some of his savvy. But at Davidson, from all I’ve read, he was the only really talented player there, and took an huge number of shots.

AT the pro level he’ll have a lot of other players who can shoot and he has a lot to learn. About how to utilize his apparently considerable offensive talents within the context of a pro system with guys who have great talents.

His size suggests pg, the one quote from a well known college coach suggests he can pass. How soon or even how that translates into learning a new position, if that’s what happens is anybody’s guess right now. But historically it usually takes a season or two to get up to speed. Obviously our staff was high on getting him. Smart saw him close up at the Summer league level of play. Now comes the varsity. We’ll have to see a lot more before drawing any conclusions. Hopes, fine. Monta has proven himself by becoming the most improved player in the whole league–after Montgomery barely used him his rookie year. Perhaps there was a lot to learn on his part as well. He played well enough to earn the max contract from our brass before he injured himself. He started slow and finished fast in his end of season “warm up games.” He could be anything from a scoring two to a great pg. Most preseason mags have him among the top ten pgs in the league RIGHT NOW. To compare a rookie coming in and learning a new position (maybe) to that, at this stage, surely isn’t based on any reality.

meir34

At pick number 14 Randolph wasn’t one of the top employees.

You want an under oath testifying with Randolph on the stand?

I’m not spending the time to go back to the past three week of posts here, but surely you saw Nellie’s statement yesterday, Riley’s on him earlier, and Smarts during Summer Camp. All alluded to the practice situation.

You also surely remember the entourage the came in demanding more minutes for Randolph before the all star break. And Nellie’s correct handling of that.

And also posted here was Randolph saying how he had some things he had to learn and how much better the season became and how he’s working hard in the offseason and looking forward to playing with Nellie.

Smart also in an interview the clip of which I saw here on the internet but to satisfy you am not going to devote hours to find again. It was posted in SJM posts, of Smart referring his and AM working hard and alluding to his improvement once he started doing that.

Finally, surely you recall BG, his agent, telling him to basically just go and work out and shut your mouth. And you won’t have difficulty finding that or how at the time of the family demands, BG was fired for saying it.

If you don’t remember any of these, note which ones and maybe if I get time I will look for them.

Sun pm and Mon is Yom Kippur, Wed is my 75th birthday party, my wife leaves for NJ on Thurs and I join her on Tuesday and from there on the 8th we go to Montreal and on a cruise for two weeks through French Canada, NB, Nova Scotia, PE, Bar Harbor and out to sea down to Ft. Lauderdale, back late on the 23rd. So my plate is way too full to do your foot work for you. I can’t believe you didn’t see any of these referred to things. Maybe someone else can help out digging them up. If I can find some easily, I’ll post them.

meir34

scott ostler thursday august sixth post from Chron article:

“Sometimes it’s hard to fault Nelson. Last season, he banished Anthony Randolph to the end of the bench for vague (to the public) reasons having to do with attitude and practice habits.

Too harsh? Well, Randolph himself now admits he needed an attitude adjustment, and Nelson’s tough love helped him mature.

But too often, young players are not given the luxury of working through and beyond mistakes.

That has to change this season.

Randolph, assuming he learned his lessons about professional behavior and attitude, has to be a starter next season, every night, until he proves all the experts wrong, including the ones who selected him to try out for the U.S. team.

how much does anyone here want a lot of posts on this old hat issue to save Dr. John from scratching others’ memories on this subject. or do his own research, it’s not that tough, and to rehash posts that have already appeared here?

The Oracle

Jules,
AR is much more likely to play Center than SF in Nelson’s “small ball” scheme.

And I don’t see any way Nelson starts BW at PF. He states clearly that AR is ahead of him at this point.

Dr. John, a good coach balances winning in the short term and developing winning young players in the medium term. A balancing act.

Nelson ignores the longer term completely, even within a season, and coaches each game like there are no more games left in the season and it’s ok to run a vet 48m. And bench a young player the entire game. After all, it’s the 7th game of the Championship and you have to do what you have to do to win. Except it’s not the 7th game of the Championship. It’s the regular season. And then he does the same thing in the next game, and the next. Until the team blows up and breaks down. And the young players get pissed at sitting and sitting while some vets play 46-48m. Nelson puts winning the next game above making the playoffs or developing a core of young players that can win in the future. He puts winning the next game above having set rotations, starting rotations, players knowing their roles and minutes, which is why we see the crazy rotations and mad scientist decisions about who is starting and sitting. I’ve never seen a coach in a season as short sighted.

But in Summer, he talks like he knows what he’s supposed to do. It’s just when the season starts, and he wants to win the next game so bad, he can’t help himself but deviate from what he knows is the right thing to do.

monsta

com, thanks, now it makes sense to me

jules, azubuike’s 25, so is watson. those are young guys.

meir, please. Pretty please.

monsta

280
that’s one of the few explanations I’ve heard of Nelson that doesn’t condemn him or deify him, defend or offend him.

It’s laudable, his competitive fire, his burning need to win, and somehow ironic that it could end up meaning he actually loses because of it.

CURSE OF MULLIN

nbf: Actually, although I’d rather have Curry than Flynn bc I’m excited about Curry’s ball disty skills, Flynn looked very good in SL. He looked a little like a young Tim Hardaway. I agree with you that the young Minne GM appears to be a numbskull, though. The Rubio pick was a fiasco–the type of mistake that can set a franchise like that back a few years. Should have taken Curry (or at least traded back down for Earl Clark).

CURSE OF MULLIN

280 and 282: I totally agree with your assessments of Nelson. To me, the question this season is: will the youngsters be good enough for Nelson to allow himself to leave them in the game. That will be the game within the game for us fans this season.

meir34

Actually I agree with a lot of what Oracle has just said.

I’d like to add a couple of additional things that I consider. Keep in mind that as a lifetime social scientist, I’ve spent my life, among other things, looking at what we called developmental studies. Individually and Socially. Let’s keep it real simple. There are huge physical changes as kids age that evryone, classes in develpment or not knows from just watching their kids or siblings grow. There are mental developmental skills as well. And socially, it probably is impossible for any of us to know how the latter has been changed by being such a super athlete that other peers see you as their ticket out of the ghetto by just hanging around you, telling you how great you are, girls hoping to get knocked up by you,
agents talking to you way too early about moneys no one from your crib even dreamed about, etc. Nowadays we have other variables like steroids.

We have all seen enormous variations between players in rates of physical development and when it occurs. Baby faced BG Armstrong, Curry, btw, reminds me a lot of him, phsyically, on the one hand and LeBron James, a much older looking kid, from the git to, to Greg Oden, whom I’ve seen close up and first hand and believe me most mid thirties or even forties types have faces that look younger. Well, terms of learning new things, meeting new requirements at the pro level, GENERALLY takes time.

As a long time Nellie watcher I know that he, like Larry Brown and others, are well tuned into this phenomenon. Nellie has many times spoken of a three year plan for developing youngsters. He generally wants them to play Summer League ball for their first three years. And he’s known, for good reasons, as a players coach. Whatever the mathematics of hot and cold streaks are, if the guy has shown that he’s a shooter who can do it at this level -practice is important here as in the other little things that are so crucial to coaches, blocking out, leaking out, how to come off a steal, dropping back so a guy covering your man can help out while you still can fall back in case his guy cuts to the basket during that time, etc. Most good coaches want players to respond instinctively to situations, and most of you know that learning theory demands many repetitions. Hence another role of practice.

Now naturally there are differences in how individuals develop and in their learning curve, for physical response sets. Also confounding things is the change in the league where we’ve gone from a typical player having played 3 or 4 years in Colllege, hopefully learning some of these things there, to a place where we were drafting kids right out of high school, to today’s version where you have to wait a year, who knows tomorrow’s?

So a Timmy Hardaway, with a college career behind him, lots of strength, and the crucial factor that AR and probably AM have shown, and BW hasn’t yet, DRIVE. Mully was a gym rat. He finished every session off with 500 free throws. Imagine, one of the best ever at that and he kept practicing. And guys who miss regularly skip it. How do we define those differences? Intensity? Drive? For the ostensible reason, not to be knocked, of finishing school and degree as soon as possible, BW hasn’t yet shown this kind of intensity and drive that Mully and AR had and have.

This isn’t knocking anybody. But I truly believe it describes an accurate state of affairs. Too early to draw a conclusion, but it “seems” like Curry has some of the Mully-AR stuff.

Anyway, it didn’t take Timmy and Mitch and Mully three years. If BW makes it, it will have taken that long.

I argue that a three year plan doesn’t fit in today’s cap and tax threshold system parameters. Not the subject for here, but to ignore the financial implications of moves and contracts is the prescription for team mediocrity. So, yes I do continually harp on the salaries, especially ltc guys, and lotto rookies are ltc guys. And if they don’t produce pretty soon, you lose not only the money but what that money could have bought and for the kicker, you risk losing the assets, even if draft picks, that you can get back for them after two years, but not as they become unrestricted fa’s. And these days, making them sign a one year in their restricted year, usually gets you grumbling and trouble and seldom will you sign the guy the next season. So two is the magic number, given the rules in place TODAY.

You have exceptions, you have to in any situation. BW, for example came in real young, he’s a big and bigs have their own extra value, pgs as well, 2s and 3s damned well better show their stuff by that second year.

So I can see arguments for waiting it out with BW and arguments for moving him now while he still has some trade value. To me the two balance shifters are 1) He no longer is our 4 of the future. He’s a finesse , skinny, 3-4-IF he makes it. 2) That isn’t anywhere near our top priorities and we are at the margins of total team salary given my above analysis of the team’s financial constraints. Mind you, he could make it or not make it. But this analysis is apart from flipping the coin on that one. If he does make it as a think but skilled and long armed 3-4, it might work for some team with their low post needs met. No hard feelings. Wish you well, here or there. But really with AR as our current 4-3. Only Miki Moore as a power down low to help AB (figuring Turiaf as his backup), this kind of finesse 3-4 doesn’t meet our needs as much as other players. To say nothing of regaining our future draft picks that have been traded way. Also not an uncommon thing, both using them for trades, and trading to get them back.

As for the real young guys. There is still that 3 year development plan. And that was developed after a lot of years’ experiences and successes.

Guys like Nellie and Larry Brown are basketball geniuses. Both have had alienation problems with young stars (AI-Brown anyone?), both are old school, both have developed young players, their way, and with great success.

You don’t want to believe that possible, ok, you don’t credit Nellie at all for the development of our #14 young pick into the guy he’s becoming. I do.
You take black, I take red. But recall, I’ve watched this particular roulette wheel spin for some many many years. Does that mean wise experience or senility as someone hinted at here today? Read me and take your pick. But as I’ve offered before, you wanna back your senility charge up with some money, I’ll play you chess for any amount, I’m blindfolded, the moves are read to me, I have to keep them all in my head, and you get to play with a board right in front of you. 🙂

I have slipped, I’ll tell you. As a kid (when Cal state co-champion in the Junior (under 17) bracket I used to do six boards, simultaneously, blindfolded. Only 1 or maybe 2 now. But my money is where my mouth is on the senility challenge.

OliverStone

meir #277

“Finally, surely you recall BG, his agent”

No don’t know this person you’ve referred to numerous times? Are you talking about BG the poster?

BTW, you’re really overplaying the family demanding playing time for AR. (jeez Nellie just had dinner with the family) You’re the only person team connected, blog connected or otherwise that brings that up! But keep grinding it into the dust.

Jules

Hallelujah! I can just imagine DAN’s retirement memoirs being written up by this guy and the end product will reflect his enormous record of wins and losses with the total book pages, over 2,000 of them, also reflecting the most verbose and inane content writing in history, befitting both their length of time to get to where they try to make their clouded point – the point of no return.

Jules

monsta, you need to stay on topic of understanding:

Young = Not Old

“Elite 8: Jackson, not Curry.”

Curry = young… Jackson = old.

Simple. And adding things after the fact doesn’t help fix the initial error – it has the opposite effect.

Coffee?

petaluman

Bear in mind that no one ever learns anything through practice in the Oracle World.

The Oracle

Meir,
I have no problem with a 3 year plan for developing young players. I don’t believe Nelson has such a plan at all, especially if he has vets he feels are better /smarter players. He has said publicly he prefers a veteran team. He traded his 1st round picks in Dallas, and might do that again here. His preference is not to develop young players, but to trade them for vets that he trusts and that he feels will make less mental errors.

I see other coaches and teams with 3 year plans for young players, and those plans include getting them consistent if not short PT. 10m a game after the first part of the season, with that number extending if they are playing particularily well. Those young players feel a part of the team, and feel the coaches have a plan for them that includes some PT, even if it’s not nearly as many minutes as they want.

I don’t see any of that in the past 3 years of Nelson. I think he’s more focused on winning the next game, and doing whatever it takes to win the next game regardless of what that means to the development of young players. I also believe he strongly prefers vets, to the point he will leave in a vet that is stinking up the court rather than bring sub in a young player who he is afraid will make mistakes but might play better.

Nelson played his first round picks the fewest minutes of any coach in the history of the NBA. His “plan” for them was for them to practice but rarely play. That might be a plan, but I don’t agree it’s a good one.

Hopefully once Nelson gets the win record he will calm down about playing every game like its the 7th game of the Championship and create a longer term plan for his team which includes the young players and also includes set lineups, roles and rotations.

Jules

Oracle,

The possibility and frequency that AR might play Center for DAN this season will be a lot less than the likelihood of him playing more in the SF position. AR will easily become injured or beaten up more in playing against the other bigger, stronger, and more established centers in the league. His weight and frame cannot compare to AB, RT, or MM. If skinny centers, the light backups, are in play, I can see where the temptation will arise for DAN to use AR as center.

Otherwise, AR’s too valuable remaining healthy all season long and will more than likely be spending a lot more time playing in the SF position where he will be pitted against players close to his weight, but that’s about where the similarities can lie. His height, length, speed and agility can match that of most SF out there and AR will more than likely win that type of mis-match. That is where his superior skills will benefit us the most. He can also stay healthier much longer.

DAN clearly states that AR has to prove he deserves that starting PF slot and will not give it to him, based on his SL performance. You haven’t seen BW for the past many months and you cannot base your interpretation on that missing information. BW was clearly ahead of AR in the starting PF slot before he got injured. BW has done a lot this summer and has gained about 20 lbs. of muscle and resolve. BW’s skills improvement is still a mystery and we’ll find out soon enough how it matches with AR’s in TC. I still put BW ahead of AR in the overall PF skills department, but this whole AR vs. BW starting is a very moot and boring argument, and I will cheer both of them as our best Forward-tandem in a very long time, if ever.

Game time!

The Oracle

Petaluman,

Please don’t blatantly misrepresent my opinion. I can speak for myself and don’t need you to lie about my opinion.

I’ve never said players can’t or don’t learn things in practice. Good practice is essential.

What I’ve said is that practice alone is not sufficient to develop a young player. A big part of what they have to learn are not related to developing skills, which they can do in practice, but learning to play the game, read the game, understand how to play the game smart, learn their opponents games, learn what they can do at this level and what they can’t (as opposed to college), and learn to control their emotions, to relax and get into the flow of playing a real game. They need to make mistakes in real games and focus on fixing those mistakes with coaches in practice.

These things are best learned playing the game, are a big part of development, and largely are not related to skill development. It’s the mental and emotional parts of the game, learning to play smart and under control with your emotions not too high or low.

I think your mistake is you equate practice with only developing skills. There is much more to become a good player, and much of it has to do with playing smarter to play better, and playing with your emotions at the correct level.

petaluman

Oracle,
Thanks for your response. The only way I’ve found to get you to acknowledge the importance of practice is to force your hand. Otherwise, you say things like “Nelson ignores the longer term completely”. I know you don’t see any more of the practices than I do, so how can you say that?

1. If Randolph was “the laziest rookie I’ve ever seen,” according to Nelson, why didn’t the Fat Man make a special effort to break down that attitude and work with the kid from the beginning last year? You don’t punish your star rookie by isolating him and hope he miraculously improves his work habits. With the kind of investment they make in these players, especially considering how few there are, the head coach should be capable of creating the right chemistry so that the player will respond from the start. Nelson disrespected Randolph during games and in the media. Treat him like a child and he will act like one.

2. The team this year has some real individual talent, but a bad combination of players, and nobody on this team, including the coach, knows how to win. We’ll see great individual displays (Monta to the rim, Randolph going coast to coast, Morrow nailing a three, Andris getting yet another board, Curry showing flashes here and there) but there is nothing comprehensive about the team or the franchise.

3. Nelson has finally acknowledged his true worth by offering a free year extension. The thing Nelson fears most is spending the rest of his life in Maui. He tried that twice before and couldn’t wait to get back to the mainland. He’s been able to play the Warriors’ franchise like the fools they are and this latest offer is just another move designed to delay his demise as a haole stuck in paradise.

4. Now Monta becomes a captain. This is the Fat Man’s way of reigning in the renegades. Just look at how incredibly successful that tactic was with Baron, Harrington, Barnes, and Jackson.

Kommon Senze

Meir says “I’d like to add a couple of additional things that I consider..”

..and then goes on to write yet another half-novel. No offense, but, again.. 80% of what you wrote was unnecessary fluff and digressions. (But now I digress).

One quick point about the 3-year plans:

You say Mitch, Mullin, and Hardaway didn’t take 3 years. True. Mitch was 23 years 4 months old when he first stepped on a NBA court; Mullin was 22 years 3 moths old; and Hardaway was 23 years 2 months old.

Brandan Wright will not be 22 until October 5th.

Do you see the difference?

The whole ‘economic climate’ argument is total baloney, too. The CBA has been completely altered precisely because younger players are not as ready now as they used to be, and teams would like to have them under their financial control for longer. Perhaps you’ve forgotten in your older age, but it was the lack of financial control that was the key reason Chris Webber was able to force his way out of Golden State. Had he been a rookie last year, he’d be under the Warriors control for at least 5 years (2 years guaranteed; 2 option years, and then a final year which they Warriors would be allowed to offer a qualifying offer and keep him if he chooses not to re-sign).

No, if anything, it’s much easier to go with a 3 year plan now with a young player, because you have some salary certainty. Also, I should note that Wright is making $2.67 million this year. The league average in 2008-09 was $4.94 million, so he’s making roughly 54% of the average salary in the league, and making roughly 4.7% of the salary cap.

So, while you bemoan overpaying young rookies, etc. and feel the system requires faster results, the truth is that only Hardaway, as a rookie made a smaller percentage of the budget than Wright is making as a 3rd year player (and, in fact, when you consider the Warriors are a good $7-8 million over the cap, not even Hardaway made less).

No need to run over the whole litany of reasons why Wright isn’t the player you want him to be yet. The point is, Wright’s salary is more than manageable, he’s still very young, and his upside remains something to be (cautiously) optimistic about. Even Nellie noted that injuries are primarily what has held him back. I do think his propensity to get hurt is a concern, but enough with the “he’s a bust” implications. He could be a bust, but there’s still a long way to go before we truly find out.

Kommon Senze

JamesOnline..

I think the overall point you make is.. “I don’t like Nellie.” You bring up some valid points, but you make the same mistake you claim he does by ignoring objectivity for the details that are convenient to your truth.

Point by Point

1) How do you know what he did or how he approached the situation? You’re making huge assumptions based on limited facts (i.e., you’ve ignored what Randolph, himself, said; what Anthony Morrow said; what Keith Smart said). Pretty much everyone has hinted that Randolph wasn’t on the same boat, yet you believe coddling him was necessary? The end result is that he seems to be toeing the line. Sorry, but revisionist criticism never sounds good.

2) Cliche “no one knows how to win” statement. Nellie’s track records says he does know how to win. Maybe not championships, but then again.. only 10 coaches (out of the hundreds who have been head coaches) in the last 30 years have a championship under their belt. Jackson has a championship, too, if that’s the barometer. I think it’s a rather lazy argument to say “this team is ill-conceived” without providing specifics. Your argument hinges on your opinion, not any tangible evidence.

3) Again, another ad hominem attack on Nellie, the person, without much substance to the argument at all. I don’t care for him as a person, much, either.. and I certainly despise Rowell.. but any of my frustration towards the team is borne out of actual problems, not just my imagined and projected disdain.

4) And what would you do with Monta? Tactically speaking, he’s “keeping his enemies close” so to speak. The olive branch to try and smooth over troubled waters is certainly better than ostracizing him more. Sure, Monta may not be long for the Warriors, but don’t you think trying to make peace makes more sense? Apparently with you, it doesn’t matter. It’s just “whatever Nellie does is stupid.” Genius.

Nellie’sbiggestfan

Oracle

Which coaches and teams have 3 year player development plans ? I think there is a huge misconception about how influential coaches really are when it comes to developing players. The first and by far most important characteristic that determines success in athletics is natural ability. A completely lazy, uncoached natural athlete will still beat the tar out of a hard working , well coached athlete who is less physically gifted. The second most important trait successfull athletes have is an internal desire for greatness. When this trait is combined with great athleticism a superstar like Jordan, or Kobe is created. Sometimes an internal desire for greatness allows a less gifted athlete to have a solid NBA career. Coming in a distant third is coaching. Coaches, on average , are paid about as well as an NBA reserve and that is about how important they are.

The 2001 NBA draft had three highly touted big men , Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, and Eddie Curry. None turned out to be impact players in the NBA. I have heard no one, not a player, coach, or media person say that these player’s underachieving was caused by lack of good coaching. These players didn’t “develop” because they didn’t have the desire to be great or because the weren’t as good athletically as people thought they were. It wasn’t because some coach had bad lineups or rotations

The Oracle

petaluman,

I acknowledge the importance of practice, along with it’s limitations in the complete development of young players without PT.

When do you acknowledge the importance of PT for a young players development?

NBF. But did those highly touted rookies get a fair chance to develop by getting at least some PT? Nobody’s going to argue that every young high 1st round pick becomes an all star or even starter or even productive bench player. But a franchise owes it to itself to at least give a young player a chance to develop, to see what they got with their one and only 1st round pick for that year. You are right that not every pick works out. You are wrong to use that as a justifcation for not trying to develop 1st round picks.

The Oracle

NBF,
Lets use your carefully selected (I guess) one year of the draft to prove my point about giving high picks a chance to develop with PT.

Kwame
First 3 years played over 4800m, played in 211 games, avg mpg 14, 22, and 30 mpg. I’d say he got his chance to develop.

Chandler
First 2 years (I believe he was injured much of year 3) 3100m, 146 games, 19mpg and 24mpg. Certainly got his chance.

Curry
First 3 years 4900m, played in 236 games. Got his chance.

Compare those total minutes, games played, and mpg to what Nelson gave his 1st round picks including POB, BW, MB and AR.

Nelson didn’t like any of those picks. Wouldn’t play any of them except when injuries forced him to. Those picks combined played the fewest minutes of any high 1st round picks in the entire history of the NBA. I would say Nelson did NOT give them their chance to develop. Maybe POB didn’t have what it takes, but all 4 picks? 4 different picks in 3 years, and none of them get a real chance outside of injuries?

And that in a nutshell is my argument. True, they don’t all work out. But if you don’t give them a chance, then 100% of them aren’t going to work out because they’re not going to properly develop.

I would say that the teams drafting Kwame, Chandler and Curry did have a PT development plan for each of them. They got their chance, and the franchises got their chance to see if they could become something. I would say on the other hand Nelson had NO plan for his high draft picks where PT was involved.

monsta

Wow. #285. Epic. The knocked up part was worth the price of admission.