Well, the blue light was my blues, and the red light was my mind (Love In Vain [song], Robert Johnson, 1937)

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary,Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.`'Tis some visitor,' I muttered, `tapping at my chamber door -Only this, and nothing more.' (The Raven [poem], Edgar Allan Poe, 1845)

See that watermelon; she's smiling through the fence,Oh, how I wish that watermelon was mine.White folks say I'm foolish; they shouldn't have lots of sense,'Cause they wouldn't leave it hangin' on the vine (The Watermelon Smiling On The Vine [song], Thomas P. Westendorf, 1882)

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)

I tho't I heard that K. C. when she blowOh, I tho't I heard that K. C. when she blowOh, I tho't I heard that K. C. when she blowShe blow like my woman's on board (KC Moan [song], trad. rec. Memphis Jug Band, 1929)

- he lost nothing,the old rascal, none of his cunning quick techniques!(The Odyssey [book], Homer, trans. Robert Fagles)I'll be glad when you're dead, you rascal you!(You Rascal You [song], Sam Theard, early 1930s)

I'll lead you there myself at the break of dayand couch you all for attack, side-by-side.(The Odyssey [book], Homer, trans. Robert Fagles)

Now I'm going awayFrom this old no good townNow I'm going awayFrom this old no good town'Cause the man I loveHe done turned me down(No Good Town Blues [song], Mary Johnson, 1930)

In South Carolina there are many tall pinesI remember the oak tree that we used to climbBut now when I'm lonesome, I always pretendThat I'm getting the feel of hickory wind(Hickory Wind [song], Gram Parsons, 1968)

I'd still love to see all his post-TOOM work annotated (incl. Chronicles). Anybody interested in helping to compile something?

Thanks, JP. Thanks for sharing what you've gathered for Duquesne Whistle. I'm excited to see where this leads and if anyone else will have their own research to add. I'll be watching this one. Chronicles is of high interest to me. I love that damn book and find it absolutely fascinating to read some of the quotes that have been embedded in the text.

Many thanks for this - great work! It's apt that Bob's new train song should, on one level, be a compendium of train/travelling songs in the American music canon. The references to 'Love in Vain' and 'Folsom Prison Blues' jumped out at me on first listening. Very interesting to see the other references to this major trope of American blues songs. Then there are the classical allusions to the Aeneid and the Odyssey - both 'journey texts,' of course. The quotation from 'The Watermelon Smiling on the Vine' seems to come right out of left field!

Another point about this song that's interesting is that it's co-credited to Robert Hunter. One wonders which of Hunter's lyrics remain in the finished version. Or is it conceivable that Bob gave him some scraps from the box and asked him to put something together? If so, this would be an interesting way of 'farming out' the production method - somewhat Andy Warhol-like, if you will. And it makes one wonder whether Bob does, indeed, have others working on his texts with the materials he provides them - and, like Warhol, 'signing' the finished work as his own.

One wonders which of Hunter's lyrics remain in the finished version. Or is it conceivable that Bob gave him some scraps from the box and asked him to put something together?

Thanks.

They might still have worked on it together, arranging the bits from 'the box' and finding the phrases to glue them together to form the song. Looking at the songs on TTL with your questions in mind should definitely be interesting.

Is Bob an Oxfordian, one of those who believe that the works of William Shakespeare ("The Tempest" et al) were actually written by Edward De vere, the 17th Earl of oxford? If not then it must be pure coincidence that "Tempest" begins with "Duquesne Whistle" and ends with "Roll on John". Q is the 17th letter in the alphabet so Duque is the 17th Duke, or in this case the 17th Earl. "Roll on John" with it's first line of "Doctor, Doctor tell me the time of day" seems to be a reference to Doctor John Rollett, the man who deciphered the cryptic 1609 dedication to "The Sonnets" by William Shakespeare. Working on the theory that the 6 lines, 2 lines, 4 lines structure of the dedication was the key he counted 6 then 2 then 4 then 6 then 2 through the words of the dedication to get "These sonnets all by ever". "Ever" is not an anagram of "Shakespeare" but it most definitely is an anagram of "Vere". Note also that "Edward De Vere" is 6 letters, 2 letters, 4 letters."Scarlet Town" echoes "Oxford Town" ( and in fact has a virtually identical line, "Scarlet Town in the hot noon hours"/ "Oxford Town in the afternoon").Either there is something in this or it don't mean a thing. For more on this see "Rollett in Reverse" by W.J.Ray taking especial note of "The forth T".

Is Bob an Oxfordian, one of those who believe that the works of William Shakespeare ("The Tempest" et al) were actually written by Edward De vere, the 17th Earl of oxford? If not then it must be pure coincidence that "Tempest" begins with "Duquesne Whistle" and ends with "Roll on John". Q is the 17th letter in the alphabet so Duque is the 17th Duke, or in this case the 17th Earl. "Roll on John" with it's first line of "Doctor, Doctor tell me the time of day" seems to be a reference to Doctor John Rollett, the man who deciphered the cryptic 1609 dedication to "The Sonnets" by William Shakespeare. Working on the theory that the 6 lines, 2 lines, 4 lines structure of the dedication was the key he counted 6 then 2 then 4 then 6 then 2 through the words of the dedication to get "These sonnets all by ever". "Ever" is not an anagram of "Shakespeare" but it most definitely is an anagram of "Vere". Note also that "Edward De Vere" is 6 letters, 2 letters, 4 letters."Scarlet Town" echoes "Oxford Town" ( and in fact has a virtually identical line, "Scarlet Town in the hot noon hours"/ "Oxford Town in the afternoon").Either there is something in this or it don't mean a thing. For more on this see "Rollett in Reverse" by W.J.Ray taking especial note of "The forth T".

Edward de Vere wrote the works of William Shakespeare ! It ´s very plausible, I think. Only he has been in Italy at that timeand could have experienced all that details in the Merchant of Venice. The German author Kurt Kreiler wrote a very profound book about that theory.

Is Bob an Oxfordian, one of those who believe that the works of William Shakespeare ("The Tempest" et al) were actually written by Edward De vere, the 17th Earl of oxford? If not then it must be pure coincidence that "Tempest" begins with "Duquesne Whistle" and ends with "Roll on John". Q is the 17th letter in the alphabet so Duque is the 17th Duke, or in this case the 17th Earl. "Roll on John" with it's first line of "Doctor, Doctor tell me the time of day" seems to be a reference to Doctor John Rollett, the man who deciphered the cryptic 1609 dedication to "The Sonnets" by William Shakespeare. Working on the theory that the 6 lines, 2 lines, 4 lines structure of the dedication was the key he counted 6 then 2 then 4 then 6 then 2 through the words of the dedication to get "These sonnets all by ever". "Ever" is not an anagram of "Shakespeare" but it most definitely is an anagram of "Vere". Note also that "Edward De Vere" is 6 letters, 2 letters, 4 letters."Scarlet Town" echoes "Oxford Town" ( and in fact has a virtually identical line, "Scarlet Town in the hot noon hours"/ "Oxford Town in the afternoon").Either there is something in this or it don't mean a thing. For more on this see "Rollett in Reverse" by W.J.Ray taking especial note of "The forth T".

Far out, but pretty cool, thanks.

Let me just say the line you quote from Scarlet Town also very closely echoes John Greenleaf Whittier.

PS: Wasn't there some sort of theory that Shakespeare never existed anyway?

Thanks, JP! My response to reading your post was that if I had collected in my head a bunch of such great lines I'd want to put them all down in a song too, especially as that old tradition is dying out.

I'm also intrigued by likeatrain's suggestion that Bob may have little bobbette elves who string together lines that Big Bob tosses them. This does seem a logical extension of "the box". Haven't lots of high profile artists done this sort of thing - farmed out parts of the work on a sort of production line basis?

I'm also intrigued by likeatrain's suggestion that Bob may have little bobbette elves who string together lines that Big Bob tosses them. This does seem a logical extension of "the box". Haven't lots of high profile artists done this sort of thing - farmed out parts of the work on a sort of production line basis?

I don't think so, but that's just my opinion. He has to perform these songs, so he will craft them himself, even from found lines.

I'm also intrigued by likeatrain's suggestion that Bob may have little bobbette elves who string together lines that Big Bob tosses them. This does seem a logical extension of "the box". Haven't lots of high profile artists done this sort of thing - farmed out parts of the work on a sort of production line basis?

I don't think so, but that's just my opinion. He has to perform these songs, so he will craft them himself, even from found lines.

"Craft," yes, I agree. But the process of how those lines are "strung together" would be very interesting to find out. There was a rumor floating about TTRH (that I was unable to confirm), that Eddie Gorodetsky has his 140,000+ digital song collection tagged with keywords and that's how the various theme shows were produced. That is, Eddie G. would plug in "Weather" into a search and a list of weather-related songs he had on hand would be produced that Dylan and the producers could then cull into a TTRH playlist.

So, maybe after all these years, "The Box" snippets are being digitized and tagged too and when Dylan is looking for certain themes or affects he can get a list of snippets matching those things that can be merged into whatever he's trying to create. I think that would fit into ScottW's ongoing theory that many of the "Chronicle" passages and certain songs represent ongoing "conversations" between Dylan and the authors whose material he's appropriating. For example, it would help explain why descriptive phrases from Jack London are used almost exclusively when he's writing about Johnny Cash. Cash reminds Dylan of London or a London character for whatever reasons, so Dylan has the Box produce London snippets that he can use as color to describe Cash. And it might explain the infamous MacLeish/Sandburg error in "Chronicles" too. That is, that Sandburg's intro had been incorrectly tagged as coming from MacLeish.

It could all be mechanical of course, with the Box color-coded with those tags. But what a nightmare to go through unless you didn't care and were only interested in producing Dadasque jargon. I've always had an issue about how Dylan could have created something with as much subtext as "Chronicles" (leaving alone the question as to why he would want to), and am convinced that there were one or more early drafts of the book that Dylan, or perhaps one of the "elves," later went back into and salted with the multiple appropriations and references. If true, it was apparently a late decision, as there's at least one pre-publication translator's copy of "Chronicles" floating around that appears to be written in a different voice. I wouldn't be surprised if many -- if not all -- of the appropriations are missing from that version.

I've always had an issue about how Dylan could have created something with as much subtext as "Chronicles" (leaving alone the question as to why he would want to), and am convinced that there were one or more early drafts of the book that Dylan, or perhaps one of the "elves," later went back into and salted with the multiple appropriations and references. If true, it was apparently a late decision, as there's at least one pre-publication translator's copy of "Chronicles" floating around that appears to be written in a different voice. I wouldn't be surprised if many -- if not all -- of the appropriations are missing from that version.

In this page from the Zainab McCoy manuscript I see one line from a Jack London story and bits from two different Sax Rohmer novels being used.

Chronicles draft: "The political world in the song is more of an underworld, not the world where men live, toil and die like men."

"An Odyssey of the North" by Jack London: "And when he did sleep, his brain worked on, and for the nonce he, too, wandered through the white unknown, struggled with the dogs on endless trails, and saw men live, and toil, and die like men."

I haven't spoken to Zainab McCoy in several years, but sent the author David Kinney to her in 2011 when he expressed interest in what she refers to as the "manuscript" (more accurately, a readers copy that was to be used for translation). The last time I spoke to her she was trying to sell the piece, but David reported back that Zainab has now decided to withhold it until Dylan has passed away, fearing that it might be "damaging." As far as I know, that's still her intent.

I've always had an issue about how Dylan could have created something with as much subtext as "Chronicles" (leaving alone the question as to why he would want to), and am convinced that there were one or more early drafts of the book that Dylan, or perhaps one of the "elves," later went back into and salted with the multiple appropriations and references. If true, it was apparently a late decision, as there's at least one pre-publication translator's copy of "Chronicles" floating around that appears to be written in a different voice. I wouldn't be surprised if many -- if not all -- of the appropriations are missing from that version.

In this page from the Zainab McCoy manuscript I see one line from a Jack London story and bits from two different Sax Rohmer novels being used.

Chronicles draft: "The political world in the song is more of an underworld, not the world where men live, toil and die like men."

"An Odyssey of the North" by Jack London: "And when he did sleep, his brain worked on, and for the nonce he, too, wandered through the white unknown, struggled with the dogs on endless trails, and saw men live, and toil, and die like men."

Joined: Tue August 28th, 2007, 07:16 GMTPosts: 23501Location: any where a music tragic might be found

Johanna Parker wrote:

Duque Ellington wrote:

Is Bob an Oxfordian, one of those who believe that the works of William Shakespeare ("The Tempest" et al) were actually written by Edward De vere, the 17th Earl of oxford? If not then it must be pure coincidence that "Tempest" begins with "Duquesne Whistle" and ends with "Roll on John". Q is the 17th letter in the alphabet so Duque is the 17th Duke, or in this case the 17th Earl. "Roll on John" with it's first line of "Doctor, Doctor tell me the time of day" seems to be a reference to Doctor John Rollett, the man who deciphered the cryptic 1609 dedication to "The Sonnets" by William Shakespeare. Working on the theory that the 6 lines, 2 lines, 4 lines structure of the dedication was the key he counted 6 then 2 then 4 then 6 then 2 through the words of the dedication to get "These sonnets all by ever". "Ever" is not an anagram of "Shakespeare" but it most definitely is an anagram of "Vere". Note also that "Edward De Vere" is 6 letters, 2 letters, 4 letters."Scarlet Town" echoes "Oxford Town" ( and in fact has a virtually identical line, "Scarlet Town in the hot noon hours"/ "Oxford Town in the afternoon").Either there is something in this or it don't mean a thing. For more on this see "Rollett in Reverse" by W.J.Ray taking especial note of "The forth T".

Far out, but pretty cool, thanks.

Let me just say the line you quote from Scarlet Town also very closely echoes John Greenleaf Whittier.

PS: Wasn't there some sort of theory that Shakespeare never existed anyway?

He existed all right that is a historical fact. There is no real doubt as to if he wrote his plays. People are confused by the total genius of the man. Not only did he write his plays , but he acted in them , directed them and at times was even part of the audience.People have found it hard to believe that one man could have done all this , but he was a genius and he did.

I haven't spoken to Zainab McCoy in several years, but sent the author David Kinney to her in 2011 when he expressed interest in what she refers to as the "manuscript" (more accurately, a readers copy that was to be used for translation). The last time I spoke to her she was trying to sell the piece, but David reported back that Zainab has now decided to withhold it until Dylan has passed away, fearing that it might be "damaging." As far as I know, that's still her intent.

That link is interesting. If it really is from an early version of "Chronicles," it would certainly be worth reading.

As per the comment on 'dreamtime' by "Fred Bals," the seeming confusion of 'facts' might easily be explained by lots of things. 'Dylan' (I'm using 'Dylan' to mean the purported author of the 'alternative' Chronicles manuscript which may or may not exist...it does not mean Bob Dylan) writes "I'd seen that the Governor of Massachusetts was running for president and his advisors had selected a woman running mate for him to ensure his defeat." 'Dylan's' claim, if this comment was about the Dukakis campaign, is 'erroneous' only if you assume that the female running mate actually ran on the ticket with Dukakis. 'Dylan' doesn't say that. 'Dylan' says that his advisors 'had selected a woman running mate for him' - it doesn't claim that the Governor ran with the woman they selected. It leaves open the possibility that the Governor 'ran' with someone of his own choosing, not the person the advisors chose for him. I believe Dylan is so hyper-aware of the minutiae and slippery nature of language that it's necessary to read him exactly as written in a context like this and not to apply any assumptions that are not in the stated language. I think Dylan as far back as 1988 was friends with a number of politically powerful people, including his friends Paul Wellstone and Al Gore, who would respectively become a Senator and a Vice President. The speculation that a candidate's advisors might be making choices to ensure that the candidate would lose sounds exactly like the 'inside scuttlebutt' that is constantly part of the lore of political campaigns and anyone who has any skepticism about U.S. politics (and Dylan is nothing if not skeptical about politics) would not be surprised to learn that candidates may have advisors who are working an agenda that is not the same as the candidate's agenda. It seems entirely possible to me that 'Dylan' didn't 'conflate' the two elections mentioned but may have been commenting on a 'tale out-of-school' he heard from someone with knowledge of the Dukakis campaign - which could have been literally anyone powerful enough in the Democratic party to be privy to campaign gossip. Nobody 'inside' would be surprised to learn there were powerful forces, including among operatives in the Democratic Party, who didn't want to see Michael Dukakis be elected president.

In a case like this, it becomes easy, if one doesn't read word by word supplying nothing outside the text, to assume the sentence means that 'Dylan' conflated the two elections in a confused or sloppy manner. And perhaps he did. But it also looks quite possible to me that when reading the comment exactly as written, it leaves a wide opening to be read entirely differently, as though 'Dylan' meant exactly what was written and nothing more. And this might have been 'Dylan' wearily commenting on the cynicism, corruption and opacity of our political parties and how their candidates are 'handled' and chosen - and that maybe, based on what people who knew 'Dylan' told him about the Dukakis campaign and a falsity at its bcore, he slipped in a comment based on gossip about the corruption of Dukakis's staff. Bob Dylan seems so skeptical of (and very possibly disgusted by) our political system that 'Dylan' may have revealed something there he chose not to commit to print. Bob Dylan has been friends with powerful people with access to campaign gossip. That nobody seems to have read the remark that way - which leaves that possibility open - and instead interpreted the remark as a confusion of facts - I'm not sure why. Everything about Dylan's politics as I perceive them make an alternate reading of that sentence possible. That remark may have been more indiscrete than 'wrong.'

Well, the blue light was my blues, and the red light was my mind (Love In Vain [song], Robert Johnson, 1937)

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary,Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.`'Tis some visitor,' I muttered, `tapping at my chamber door -Only this, and nothing more.' (The Raven [poem], Edgar Allan Poe, 1845)

See that watermelon; she's smiling through the fence,Oh, how I wish that watermelon was mine.White folks say I'm foolish; they shouldn't have lots of sense,'Cause they wouldn't leave it hangin' on the vine (The Watermelon Smiling On The Vine [song], Thomas P. Westendorf, 1882)

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)

I tho't I heard that K. C. when she blowOh, I tho't I heard that K. C. when she blowOh, I tho't I heard that K. C. when she blowShe blow like my woman's on board (KC Moan [song], trad. rec. Memphis Jug Band, 1929)

- he lost nothing,the old rascal, none of his cunning quick techniques!(The Odyssey [book], Homer, trans. Robert Fagles)I'll be glad when you're dead, you rascal you!(You Rascal You [song], Sam Theard, early 1930s)

I'll lead you there myself at the break of dayand couch you all for attack, side-by-side.(The Odyssey [book], Homer, trans. Robert Fagles)

Now I'm going awayFrom this old no good townNow I'm going awayFrom this old no good town'Cause the man I loveHe done turned me down(No Good Town Blues [song], Mary Johnson, 1930)

In South Carolina there are many tall pinesI remember the oak tree that we used to climbBut now when I'm lonesome, I always pretendThat I'm getting the feel of hickory wind(Hickory Wind [song], Gram Parsons, 1968)

I'd still love to see all his post-TOOM work annotated (incl. Chronicles). Anybody interested in helping to compile something?

This is one of my favorites from the p.p. forum. I like the way you put everything together here. I've just been lurking on the main boards over the last couple of years, not too regularly, but I've been here occasionally. I think a lurker should be able to speak up without the lurkies thinking it's too eerie. Hey somebody read what you had to say on a message board.

That's not any more unusual than these discussions existing in the first place, is it? I guess we could all have a different definition for what "natural" might mean in this setting. I find it hard to believe that people here would think they're just talking to each other all the time.

Last edited by avant-gardener on Wed January 29th, 2014, 00:13 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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