Bd is not a 4-bar design, and not all 4 bar design are equal. Short stroke/high ratio shock can be a disaster to tune, not to mention you'd not get the full travel advertised. Most fs bikes nowadays have specific tune shock to fit the frame. Rumor has it that Gary Fisher has different tune shock for different trim of the same model as compare to RS monach oem on BD top tier fs.;)

Giant Maestro, DW link and many others dual mini-links alike can just be set it and forget it and they'd just perform. Just give one a try on your local trail, hope you can see the difference.

Hence why I said Faux bar, not 4 bar.
The monarch rt3 is sold in different tune settings from the manufacturer. While that might not have the same precision as what these major companies do to tune it, having the right air pressure, 3 platforms, and rebound adjustment gives the bike an awesome ride. Whether it was luck or a lot of testing that resulted in this product's build/design, it is a great fit for the bike and I have seen very few complaints about the performance of the suspension and rear shock.
The only 2 instances I can recall was someone saying it bottomed out, and another person saying it had a little pedal bob. I've yet to bottom it out and I feel hardly any bob in 2/3 suspension settings.
Your comparison of camry to impreza rally car is a bit extreme in my opinion. Which FS bikes did these riders jump off to have this "in your face" difference? I doubt it was this one, because I feel you would have specified it.

11-26-2012

mimi1885

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonnyP

Hence why I said Faux bar, not 4 bar.

Your comparison of camry to impreza rally car is a bit extreme in my opinion. Which FS bikes did these riders jump off to have this "in your face" difference? I doubt it was this one, because I feel you would have specified it.

Which of the BD uses Faux bar design, it's a knock off four bar rocker arm(which makes no sense). They don't have the license from any one.

Extreme? First of all it's their words not mine, I like it though, it depends on what I rode on the given days, I remember Ibis Mojo, Ellsworth Moment(which one said it looks like the same design), Titus Motolite, Maverick ML8, Intense 5.5s, or whatever I rode. When I see one in a group ride I ask how they like it and I ask if they'd want to switch, all say yes so I spent some time to set up the bike for them and we all went out and have a good time.;)

BTW, most have switch since then, the popular upgrade? Giant Trance X.

11-26-2012

SonnyP

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimi1885

Which of the BD uses Faux bar design, it's a knock off four bar rocker arm(which makes no sense). They don't have the license from any one.

Extreme? First of all it's their words not mine, I like it though, it depends on what I rode on the given days, I remember Ibis Mojo, Ellsworth Moment(which one said it looks like the same design), Titus Motolite, Maverick ML8, Intense 5.5s, or whatever I rode. When I see one in a group ride I ask how they like it and I ask if they'd want to switch, all say yes so I spent some time to set up the bike for them and we all went out and have a good time.;)

BTW, most have switch since then, the popular upgrade? Giant Trance X.

Which bikesdirect bike were they riding was the question I was asking, because you generalized about them being on BD FS bikes. I have yet see you say anyone specifically ditching THIS bike. The Motobecane Fantom 29er DS with the FAUX bar suspension. Tell me, what about the Fantom 29er DS isn't a faux bar? Also, who owns the faux bar patent if they had to pay it?

11-26-2012

zebrahum

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonnyP

Which bikesdirect bike were they riding was the question I was asking, because you generalized about them being on BD FS bikes. I have yet see you say anyone specifically ditching THIS bike. The Motobecane Fantom 29er DS with the FAUX bar suspension. Tell me, what about the Fantom 29er DS isn't a faux bar? Also, who owns the faux bar patent if they had to pay it?

Can we please stop using "faux bar" and "four bar"? Most of the time when someone is describing a bike as ____bar, it's not even a kinematically four bar bicycle system. There are often extra bars and links but no one tries to clean up their terminology. No one describes a simple single pivot bike as "three bar". Suffice to say that "four bar" and "faux bar" are pointless terms; doesn't one refer to a patented pivot location where the other refers to the un-patented but kinematically identical (in terms of number of linkages) system?

Let's talk about the much larger differences between your single pivot, FSR, and multi link bikes and leave the inaccurate terminology in the past where it belongs.

No one "owns" the faux bar patent because it implies the pivot location is on the seatstay which does not violate the Horst link patent.

11-26-2012

mimi1885

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonnyP

Which bikesdirect bike were they riding was the question I was asking, because you generalized about them being on BD FS bikes. I have yet see you say anyone specifically ditching THIS bike. The Motobecane Fantom 29er DS with the FAUX bar suspension. Tell me, what about the Fantom 29er DS isn't a faux bar? Also, who owns the faux bar patent if they had to pay it?

Faux bar is merely a marketing term, I think started by Spech. They do have the patent of their design that they license.

You know suspension design ain't cheap or free, everyone who has the patent would protect their. Go on and check out their website, there would be pages of how it works and some even tell you why they are better than another, take it with the grain of salt til you test ride.

Then go on BD's site, they tell you what it's made of, and the advance technology of each of the components, and then this
Fantom 29 XTR 30 speedHydroformed Butted and Geometric Multishaped Aluminum tubes,1 set H2O Bosses (Small has no bosses), Four Bar Rocker Arm. Gusseted SL 7005 Aluminum (Disc Brake Equipped) Super Smooth Sealed Cartridge Bearings at critical pivots, replaceable rear derailleur hanger"

They would also said this NEW Shimano Dyna-SYS Drivetrain for mountain bikes
Shimano's next-generation Dyna-Sys drivetrain brings with it the legendary quality, durability and performance Shimano is known for, all packaged to meet the ever-evolving demands of today’s riders. Dyna-Sys brings together the rider, the bike and the trail. Intuitive gear combinations account for how riders deliver power through the drivetrain; optimized 32-tooth Primary Driving Gear even the roughest, rockiest, muddiest trails can’t shake Shimano’s most stable off-road mountain bike drivetrain to date. Dyna-Sys is a comprehensive redesign made up of a multitude of thoughtful details, features and revisions that together add up to a world beating, trail conquering ride.And went ahead and give you this CranksetFSA 10SPD Afterburner MegaExo, 42x32x24T, 175mm

Forget the Y design it's not even worth talking about. I've been looking at the BD site and it's the same knock offs you can pick from Kenesis without getting sued over, go check them out they are many knock off design one looking better than another, I think they have to stick with the one where they won't get in trouble.

If you like yours it's fine, op was asking about the GT iDrive design, myself and others recommend Giant Maestro, which is a better design than four bar rocker arm that all.

11-26-2012

SonnyP

Okay, is a rocker activated single pivot better?
I hope you aren't suggesting that a well designed rocker activated single pivot design is no better than a single pivot design. There are a lot of rocker activated single pivot owners that would disagree. A well designed rocker activated single pivot will minimize the things it is more prone to than other designs. (bobbing and brake feedback) Also, bikes with great designs will perform exceptional regardless of the pivot type.

I was asking sarcastically about the faux bar patent because I knew it didn't exist.

11-26-2012

zebrahum

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonnyP

Okay, is a rocker activated single pivot better?
I hope you aren't suggesting that a well designed rocker activated single pivot design is no better than a single pivot design. There are a lot of rocker activated single pivot owners that would disagree. A well designed rocker activated single pivot will minimize the things it is more prone to than other designs. (bobbing and brake feedback) Also, bikes with great designs will perform exceptional regardless of the pivot type.

I was asking sarcastically about the faux bar patent because I knew it didn't exist.

Bikes no longer succeed or fail by the merits of their frame design alone; every good bike will be complemented by a shock that is valved for the leverage curves they need. Direct driven shock bikes like the Cannondale Rush are great bikes with all the pedaling prowess of any bike out there, certainly better than a poorly damped cheap suspension frame with a more complicated design like a linkage driven single pivot.

This conversation was much less stupid when the examples were tangible like the Motobecane vs whatever. Unfortunately I don't have enough experience with the Motobecane to know if the shock is damped appropriately for the leverage ratio the frame develops. I do know that the larger companies work directly with shock manufacturers to build shocks to match the leverage ratio of frames sometimes down to size specific valving.

11-26-2012

SonnyP

let's see...how many people we can get to make negative comments about a bike they have never ridden

11-26-2012

zebrahum

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonnyP

let's see...how many people we can get to make negative comments about a bike they have never ridden

And you've rode every bike that people are comparing the Motobecane to? The fun part about having rode most every frame that's out there means that you can make informed generalizations about how certain bikes will perform.

The only good advice anyone can give is to buy whatever bike you like riding for whatever reason you like it. It doesn't matter who makes it, it doesn't matter what parts are attached to it, and it doesn't matter what broad category of suspension design it employs; the only important aspect of buying a bike is buying the bike you like to ride. In the end, us internet folk aren't the ones owning this bike and unless it is being bought to be hung on the wall then it only matters how the thing handles the dirt. If it is being bought to be hung on the wall, may I suggest a gearbox bike? Actually, I take that back because no gearbox bike I can think of deserves to be hung on the wall until it is beaten fully to death.

11-26-2012

JACKL

I've had a few friends with Motobecanes. They are solid bikes at a great price. However I would not buy any single-pivot bike because I hate the way they pedal. The ones I tried lean back or sink in the rear when you try to climb, wheelie or accelerate hard. It can be mitigated with the right shock, but I'm willing to pay for the better suspension. Components can be upgraded later, but you can't change the suspension design.

That's just me, and also if the rear travel is 100mm or less it's not as big of a deal. As far as I know, that is the only downside of the Motobecane bikes.

I was probably ruined right off the bat since my first FS bike was a DW-Link Ironhorse. Riding I-drive right now and very happy with it.

11-26-2012

mimi1885

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonnyP

let's see...how many people we can get to make negative comments about a bike they have never ridden

What's the difference? Have you tried the 26" version? I'm not saying that op had to buy the latest and greatest designs he can get even the well conceived single pivot and still out performs bd FS.

I have helped many noobs into a rush or prophet for as little as $700 with a lefty fork. When it comes to FS, big brands has the advantage forget the components level.

If you are buying a FS, consider the choice of frame design not the components package and ask yourself is it too good to be true? Many lucky ones just kept riding there bike not knowing that there are better options out there.

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11-26-2012

SonnyP

I have mostly ridden hardtails. However, I've ridden the maestro suspension and the only difference in suspension I could feel was the slightest stiffening of the fantom while braking.
I let a friend who had an fsr ride mine and he couldn't tell the difference.

The fantom 26 is not the same bike as the fantom 29.

I know how well the bike performs, which is why I would recommend it and disagree with the negative comments towards it from people who don't own it.

All this does is make me want to go out and enjoy my investment that could have cost me a lot more and only performed marginally better in a couple suspension aspects.

11-26-2012

mimi1885

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACKL

I've had a few friends with Motobecanes. They are solid bikes at a great price. However I would not buy any single-pivot bike because I hate the way they pedal. The ones I tried lean back or sink in the rear when you try to climb, wheelie or accelerate hard. It can be mitigated with the right shock, but I'm willing to pay for the better suspension. Components can be upgraded later, but you can't change the suspension design.

That's just me, and also if the rear travel is 100mm or less it's not as big of a deal. As far as I know, that is the only downside of the Motobecane bikes.

I was probably ruined right off the bat since my first FS bike was a DW-Link Ironhorse. Riding I-drive right now and very happy with it.

Yeah, even with some minor issue on that first issue DW Iron horse, it's still a very sweet bike to pedal. Keep an open mind, SinglePivot like Cannondale, and Santa Cruz are very good and efficient, they climb firm without the need of PP, with the aid of chain torque, give a little back on the extra firmess of the suspension action. They are not as al dente as the modern dual mini-links but still comfortable. A Modified SP like Trek ABP is another sweet ride with the DVRC shock.

11-27-2012

Rod

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimi1885

When it comes to FS, big brands has the advantage forget the components level.

If you are buying a FS, consider the choice of frame design not the components package and ask yourself is it too good to be true?

This entire thread can be summed up with these statements.

Anyone can ride any bike and have a blast. That's what it is about at the end of the day. We were just trying to help the OP get the best bike for his/her money. Buy a great suspension design and upgrade the components later as they wear out. I don't care what brand someone buys. I know I would want the most efficient full suspension bike that does not have pedal bob or pedal feedback.

11-28-2012

Nakkoush

the OP is now facing a real dilemma :madman: after your appreciated explicit arguments.

If I am now to increase my budget to $2,500 (very feasible) for the perfect FS system bike in order to upgrade its components once they wear out: which bike do you recommend?

however it will be much appreciated if you can direct me to where I can buy it online? I am not from the USA and don't know the reputable online bike shops... I count on the links you people provide me here to carry on... so far the easiest bike for me to buy and ship within the states to my shipping agency is from BD...

11-28-2012

mimi1885

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nakkoush

the OP is now facing a real dilemma :madman: after your appreciated explicit arguments.

If I am now to increase my budget to $2,500 (very feasible) for the perfect FS system bike in order to upgrade its components once they wear out: which bike do you recommend?

however it will be much appreciated if you can direct me to where I can buy it online? I am not from the USA and don't know the reputable online bike shops... I count on the links you people provide me here to carry on... so far the easiest bike for me to buy and ship within the states to my shipping agency is from BD...

Shipping bike oversea is not cheap especially thru reputable companies from USA. They can range from 250-600. I checked with ups and FedEx before for individual shipping a bike that cost $90 domestic would cost $750 to ship to Asia.

You may have better price overall ordering from Europe.

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11-29-2012

Nakkoush

Guys, forget about the shipping destination PLZ ... I will take care of it... kindly consider me as a resident in the USA who is asking for your advice.

Please add your recommended bike here where its selling price does not exceed $2,500.... (I am 5' 9")....
PS: again, I count on the links you people provide here for online shops to carry on accordingly... thx in advance.

11-29-2012

AndrwSwitch

I'd observe that bikes 4 and 5 in your list come from difference classes. The Trance is a short-travel XC bike, and the Anthem has a bit more travel and is meant to be a bit more fun on descents. Actually, I got to try a Trance a while ago. I didn't dislike it as much as I've disliked most full suspension bikes, although I recently tuned an FSR XC with a nice shock to work just as well for me, but by the time I get a FS bike tuned not to piss me off, it strikes me as rather pointless to have all that extra stuff in the rear of the bike - I may as well just be on a hardtail.

I paged all the way back to your first post and had a look - sounds like anything in the 100 mm or 120 mm range fits your expected use pretty well. But IME, full suspension bikes are usually pretty distinct from one another. Hardtails are different from one another too, but usually not that different.

What have you ridden? What did you like about it? What would you like to change?

11-29-2012

Nakkoush

I have a road bike and a mountain bike with no suspension... never rode a FS bike. I simply want to jump into the full suspension system bikes....

briefly, which among my above mentioned bikes is the best in terms of popularity and durability?

11-29-2012

mimi1885

Andrew I think you meant anthem is the short travel xc bike and trance us a more fun trail bike:).

Op, well at $2500 you have certainly get more choices. I thought I saw someone posted a deal on ibis mojo sl special blend for $2500 but quick google search only saw the price at $2750. It's certainly the next tier up with super light carbon frame, if you can find the deal I saw posted it's definitely a good buy.

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11-29-2012

AndrwSwitch

^^^
I could have reversed them... I tried the short-travel 29er, anyway.