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It's good that meditation works for you. But be aware after meditation session for some time person is able to accept more suggestions from others.

It's a grey area and to have positive results from meditation depends on each individual.

Yeah, I suppose there will always be a few loonies out there. But are those stories representative of the total population of meditators?

It's very much like exercise, in that there are so many benefits that if you could put it in a pill it would be very widely used. Helps with depression, sleep, anxiety, immune system response, blood pressure, compassion, empathy, resilience, happiness, etc. The new research is getting more and more robust. Admittedly, some of the old research was pretty lacking. This is a field on the upswing, not the other way around.

To say it depends on the individual, you could say that about anything. The average person is getting results, if they do the work.

One of the better researchers, Richard Davidson, gave a great talk recently on The Emergence of Contemplative Neuroscience, covering the history of the research. Pretty long, though:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKg3CDczpA

Almost everyone is experiencing a certain level of reality, sure. But you might be surprised how many unconscious assumptions are embedded in your experience. Meditation can help with that.

Moments of not-thinking, sure. But if you keep practicing, you can learn to think without becoming so completely absorbed in thought that you lose awareness of the here and now. Meditation in that way, is actually the ultimate skepticism - it helps you see that your imagination is not so real. It becomes much harder over time to be drawn into strong negative emotions based on your daydreams.

It's good that meditation works for you. But be aware after meditation session for some time person is able to accept more suggestions from others.

It's a grey area and to have positive results from meditation depends on each individual.

You may be misreading my intent in this thread.
I'm not extolling the virtues of meditation, nor promoting a particular brand.
I quit doing it, though mostly out of laziness.

I started this as an off-shoot of the "consciousness" thread.
My experiment, in my opinion, relates to some data on how the brain functions.
Meditation doesn't "work for me" anymore than studying butterflies works for someone else.

I merely found that sort of exploration compelling, and pursued it, with a certain youthful abandon.
I'm not selling any self-help books, believe me.

Sam Harris gives a great talk about consciousness and mediation here. He is speaking to a group of atheists and cajoles them into all meditating for a few minutes, and trying get them to live in the now and not the past or future.

Sam Harris - Death and the Present Moment

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

Sam Harris gives a great talk about consciousness and mediation here. He is speaking to a group of atheists and cajoles them into all meditating for a few minutes, and trying get them to live in the now and not the past or future.

Sam Harris - Death and the Present Moment

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

Well,
I got to wrap up my story, even though I don't really want to anymore. It will be like work, trying to describe the pivotal event of that night, alluded to in the post above...but someone has to do it.

The process of allowing thought to run out; to exhaust itself...brings one up close and personal with all the craziness that is banging around in the noggin.
It's as if one never really noticed that stuff before, even though its mental soundtrack had been running, pretty much non-stop, for ever.

You feel ashamed at first, at the swill-heap of clutter.
So you pass it through a process; like a hoarder intervention, and you deal with each item, and let it go, maybe to the Good Will of mental dump sites.

Before I continue, let me assure you that I am a total mess now; probably couldn't even get in a cult now, much less start one. My mind is once again full of clutter and its voice yammers at me constantly. The worst example would be an irritating advertisement jingle. My mind wants to punish me, and I don't blame it, really.

I've gotten a bit side-tracked, but I really need to wrap this up.
Its difficult to describe the process if you've never engaged in it.
It's so boring, that there's nothing to do at all except focus on your breathing, and notice all the thoughts that try to arise.
So you get tuned into that process to a very subtle level.

on the way to silence, you start to notice a noise that is less than thought. It doesn't even manage to make a full word of thought. It's the impulse to make a thought.
You tune in on that.
And you let it run out of juice.

And you're left, in my case, with a pool of liquid contained by a barrier, surrounded by and endless expanse of the same fluid.

Now, impulses to generate thought have subsided, yet one observes the mental show.

Three aspects left to my consciousness:

The contained; the container; the beyond.
Immersed in this inner reality, I was able to observe that the container was made of the same stuff as the pond within, and the endless expanse on the back side of the wall.

And then, the wall dissolved, and 3 became one.
I don't know why, but the moment co-coincided with an enormous rush of bliss and warmth that lasted for many hours. It was as if all the brain cells were firing in unison.
It lit me up.

I had bumped into something immutable, and I was glad to know it was there.
It came with a pleasure that immensely exceeded anything else I've experienced.

(btw, i've candy flipped with loving partners. Orgasms, even in that scenario, could not compete with the state of no-thought.

I guess the point of this thread was to point out that one can examine the workings of the brain, to some extent, from within...and that what we sense as consciousness is quite malleable, as well as being highly contingent on the process of thought.

And lastly, that we can willfully alter that process and discover and underlying reality, or, default zone...which, for whatever reason, is a blissful state.
This is obviously quite subjective, though there is a body of of similar subjective data, from all times and all parts of the globe.

When I discovered this default state of awareness, it came with a realization that it was there for everything. Spiders, trees, rocks, atoms, even.

Mods, feel free now to dump this thread in R&P, where it likely belongs, along with the consciousness thread. I've had my say, though I'm willing to go further, into an hypothesis that attempts a more science-based explanation of the possibility of consciousness being a back ground field.

Quarky, I find descriptions of experiences such as yours very interesting and valuable. That's true whether from the most skeptical skeptic, or the wooest woo, or anyone in between. But practicing skeptics embellish less; they seem more able to focus on the actual experience rather than interpretations/extrapolations of the experience, such as "feeling the presence of God." (The downside is that, it might be harder to have certain types of experience, in the absence of prior expectations from a pre-conceived narrative.)

Narratives, experiences, practices. When examining other systems of practice, Skepticism focuses on the former, which is a good starting point. But once satisfied that qi, psi, ghosts, and Noah's Ark don't exist, how do you approach the experiences? You have to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that they do exist (as experiences), but the tendency is to dismiss them as interchangeable (dream = drug trip = creative flow = meditative state = orgasm = etc.) and/or irrelevant. That's overlooking an opportunity for understanding and common ground.

Quarky, I find descriptions of experiences such as yours very interesting and valuable. That's true whether from the most skeptical skeptic, or the wooest woo, or anyone in between. But practicing skeptics embellish less; they seem more able to focus on the actual experience rather than interpretations/extrapolations of the experience, such as "feeling the presence of God." (The downside is that, it might be harder to have certain types of experience, in the absence of prior expectations from a pre-conceived narrative.)

Narratives, experiences, practices. When examining other systems of practice, Skepticism focuses on the former, which is a good starting point. But once satisfied that qi, psi, ghosts, and Noah's Ark don't exist, how do you approach the experiences? You have to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that they do exist (as experiences), but the tendency is to dismiss them as interchangeable (dream = drug trip = creative flow = meditative state = orgasm = etc.) and/or irrelevant. That's overlooking an opportunity for understanding and common ground.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Yeah, i hear you, and its the damnedest thing.
I actually miss reported my experience, to accommodate skeptics, of which I am one. Maybe two. Not sure.

The pond and its barrier, and the stuff outside of that for instance, presented as a vast field of warm, golden, liquid love-light.I left that out of the description. I have no wooish affiliation. Well, I think raccoons are cute, and i don't kill insects just because I can...stuff like that...but when the container melted and i touched down with something incredible in my mind,
an inner voice said "The spirit is immutable".

I left that out of my description, and it was dishonest of me.
It was stunning to me, as I had no prior expectations or leanings toward such an overwhelming experience.

Its not like I won points with my mom, or the Pope, or the Dalai Lama or even Carlos Castanada, via this experience.

I'm telling it like it was, for the sake of being honest.
I'm not claiming to have seen UFOs, or Big Foot.

What I'm reporting here is way more fantabulous.
Yet, I'm science guy enough to point out the subjectivity of the event, and even request that it all be moved to a more appropriate forum.

Still, how is someone supposed to report, objectively, on the most extraordinary moment of their life?

I doubt that my honesty now has cheapened meditation.
Early on, i explained that I'm promoting nothing.
I bent over backwards to illuminate my own present shortcomings.

I've got absolutely nothing to sell in this. In fact, I've rather exposed myself, and a potentially embarrassing past, at least by jref standards.

Yet, that was a sober exploration, taken on during a time of higher learning, in the nerdy sense of the word.

Hope I don't sound defensive.
I honestly don't know what I would be defending.

Skeptics embellish less, sure.
Possibly because they've experienced less?
Suppose this was a description of a solo trek to the North Pole?

Would one want to discard the visions one had as they nearly froze to death?
I have been careful to avoid the 'presence of god' in this narrative, as well as 17.651 other posts here.
I have no idea what god is or isn't.
Its not an area of my concern or curiosity.

It sure is freaky, though, to examine the inner workings of one's thoughts.

I don't even want to recommend trying it. Its a fairly disturbing revelation, in spite of the bliss.

[quote=What I'm reporting here is way more fantabulous.
Yet, I'm science guy enough to point out the subjectivity of the event, and even request that it all be moved to a more appropriate forum.

Still, how is someone supposed to report, objectively, on the most extraordinary moment of their life?

Yet, that was a sober exploration, taken on during a time of higher learning, in the nerdy sense of the word.
I don't even want to recommend trying it. Its a fairly disturbing revelation, in spite of the bliss.[/QUOTE]

Hi Quarky,

I thanks for sharing you experience.

But If you were looking at this from a scientific point of view, I don't think you have finished your investigation.

If your intent was to see what would happen when you "experienced reality without the cloud of constat thought process", then what was the scientific result of your test?

Since none of the scientific posters seem interested, I would be more than happy to look into this with you, if you don't mind.

It's in the examination of one's thought processes, and especially the pre-thought impulse in the brain, that one comes to face what it is that they are.
Or aren't. Scarcely matters.

It's akin to lifting the curtain on the wizard of Oz, and finding out it's been you. all along.
There is no possible way to address this sort of thing in a scientifically acceptable way.

My hunch is that that is a salient feature of consciousness.

I'd also say thanks for sharing the experience. As Yoda would say...' Fortunate you are to something find of significance such...' There is so much more to this thing called life (and so much evidence to support it)...it cannot help but annoy me to hear it reduced to such lurid sludge by so many science obsessed souls.

But If you were looking at this from a scientific point of view, I don't think you have finished your investigation.

If your intent was to see what would happen when you "experienced reality without the cloud of constat thought process", then what was the scientific result of your test?

Since none of the scientific posters seem interested, I would be more than happy to look into this with you, if you don't mind.

Chunol

Good question. I don't have an answer. I'm open to suggestion. How could I put this anecdotal experience to a valid test of some sort?
What's to test?

The paradoxical 'effort' involved in allowing thought to subside, on purpose, is not something one could whip out on demand.
At least, I sure couldn't.

Yet, even a minimal attempt should make some aspects of my tale more digestible. It could be that there is a subjective aspect to reality.

Clearly, this is fringe study of the brain, and how it works.
yet, there is a body of sub-evidence in this sort of exploration.

Sub-evidence?
Wtf is that?

Self-inquiry, i guess.
And the discovery of the non-existence of the individual self...and possibly the co-commitment of that...the discovery of the universal self.

Raw consciousness.

I'm willing to go on, yet am quite aware of the general pointlessness of that.
It's analogous to someone claiming that if you cross your eyes for 3 minutes, and then recite the Gettysburg Address, you will see a dinosaur.

Evidence?

Well,
You have to try the cross eyed Gettysburg address thing, I guess, and report back. Or not.

I can't really un-do what I experienced, nor can I adequately explain it in easily digestible scientific chunks.

I have been meditating for years, I do it to help with periodic anxiety attacks and frequent migraines (luckily without the headache).

If I am trying to stop the adrenaline waves from multi panic bouts, I will sit and focus on a brim full glass of water, a compass and a candle flame (vertigo usually kicks in during these bouts so I have all three axis referenced to stop all the bloody motion tricks of that effect) and rather than clearing my mind, I try and occupy it fully to minimise the effect of the distractions, mentally reading a book, coding, inventing food dishes, Recalling Electronic data tables etc or even using "Fox in Socks" as a spoken mantra

I find that using the same setup (the set up ritual sort of sets a switch) I can enter into a form of calming can also assist in times when I am not trying to keep my noggin from driving me to distraction, and I can utilise it to remove the majority of other input and by keeping a thought thread active can analyse it a lot faster than usual, as well as sorting out my mental filing system.

I can also remain in mentally lucid state if I just need a good nap (used to do the 15-20 minutes a few times a day thing for years), I can also use it to try and force a long deep sleep (long for me is 2 hours), I just don't do the Water Compass and Candle but it is nowhere near as relaxing.

With the more prone to suggestion thought, after a bout (I use the candle to time so can be 1-9 hours depending on the candle) I do find myself very focused on what I was thinking of, I suppose this is what some people refer to as hypnotism or just self positive reinforcement, and depending on direction of focus I find the aftermath tends also to have a short lived euphoric experience (I also find the same effects on a comedown after a good sesh on the shrooms or blotters but normally lasts a lot longer) If someone or something, background noise or a radio station etc was present, I find it will be present and linked in my focused thought,

I still cannot remove all senses, Sight I can render to non important as my eyes are screwed and because of the aura from the migraines I am used to suppressing aspects of my vision, Hearing I have learned to also ignore through occasional tinnitus and Hearing damage from concerts and working at airports, I can not switch off my sense of smell and I have often found that I have the urge for something after a bout only to find a neighbour ordered a curry or burned a fryup whilst I was space cadetted, or that the same scent can trigger a major flashback.

I haven't been schooled in any particular form of meditation I just sort of worked it out from when I was young, so have had no need to attempt to explore any deeper meanings or self discovery, I have merely used it as a tool to control my distractions, and regulate my thoughts.

I have never really had a spiritual bent of any kind was never brought up with it, So I attribute any 'inner calm' Euphoria or Ecstasy to brain chemistry and hormones, and as I am not looking for anything in that arena I will probably never experience it, I don't think my imagination would know where to start.

I do not think I would ever like to voluntarily totally clear my mind, I went under General anaesthetic once for an operation, afterwards when my wetware rebooted I went into a complete kernal panic, frenzy ensued as my brain tried to comprehend what had happened to it and had to be knocked out again, got brought around slower and in a sedated state so was able to explain the staff the source of the panic, which was essentially missing time in my memory.

I have in the past stopped meditating and started medicating instead as the bouts got too much to control and was given Halo Peridol, after several months realised (in a rare moment of non drugged up clarity) that I am not going live with that crap so quit the meds and went back to self control, I have recently gone back to a GP and have been prescribed Beta Blockers to help with the panic side which function well (and don't turn me into a total braintard) and am very glad SSRIs or Halo never even came up in the discussion, as I would probably just never see a GP again for another 10 or so years.

__________________=^..^= Felix Sapiens,Drink Beer! It is big, and it is clever, There’s a man with a mullet going mad with a mallet in MilletsThe chances of anything coming from mars are a million to one they say.

As that becomes 'threatened', in my case, anyway, there is a very disturbing sense of vertigo, combined with nausea.

I dealt with that, over the course of years, by leaving little to digest during these experiments.

This is vaguely analogous to being advised not to eat a big meal before you trip,
If your energy is diverted to your brain, and not to your digestive tract, then the food in your gut will fester and cause you misery.

My breakthrough meditation session happened after a 2 week fast.
I'm not advocating this, honestly.
fasting is very interesting, mentally and physically. It primes one's willing removal from the norm. I won a bike race (college level) on a 3 day fast. Climbed a mountain on a six day fast; did long hikes on an 18 day fast.

This was my wooish, possibly neurotic past. At least with fasting, no snake oil is involved, and you do get in touch with your body; you soon realize how much of eating is about nutrition, and how much is more like a drug addiction.

After emerging from all that, relatively unscathed, i took on a fairly esoteric diet for years.
I had extraordinary vitality during those years, but I was constantly hungry, and engaged with an internal battle of wills. I want a freaking twinkie. Now, it's too late.

My mental chatter is pretty loud and constant. I can't assume it's that way for others.
But for me, experiencing a quiet mind, on purpose, was the culmination of an awesome struggle. And release.
You wouldn't think it would be that hard...to just not have thoughts, and be awake.
For me, it was an extraordinary focus of will; and the complete letting go of that.

Sounds crazy. Why would it be difficult to observe your mind when it wasn't thinking?

My observations of your observations: You have succeeded in becoming a 'thoughtless mind'. And it made you crazy. And you want more of same. It sounds like the perfect definition of 'mental masturbation'.

Relaxation via mental control of various body systems, or the easing of that control, I can see/do. But how can you observe what happens to your thought processes without thought? Aren't you thinking about how thoughtless you are? That takes thought.

But I just don't see any thing like "ascension to a higher plane" kind of effect. So you can day dream at will. Big deal.

__________________Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts.

Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them.

It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

i'm not claiming accession to higher realms, or any god-like mysticism here.
This sort of activity is the opposite of day-dreaming.
Being aware of thoughtlessness is paradoxical, for sure.

...not necessarily. I think the answer is rather simple...though maybe not that obvious. It is generally regarded that we posses two varieties of intelligence. Intellectual and emotional. Both provide us with the ability to adjudicate / navigate / orient. The emotional / embodied variety is, I think, of much greater and more fundamental relevance. It is that which inhabits us with meaning that moves and lasts. Your experience is evidence of this. Thus...it is quite reasonable to occur in a 'non thinking' state. It does not mean a condition of no intelligent activity...only a different variety of intelligent activity. Awareness can simply occur in other forms. An interesting discovery to make. If there is anything worth envying, it must certainly be such a thing.

In order to deal with this scientifically, we must first be sure we agree on the ideas of subjective and objective.

So we can try to figure out why “the personal (subjective) experience of reality (nature) without the cloud of constant thought process” cannot be dealt with scientifically.

And also try to get a handle on where the ‘constant thought process’ fits in the mix.

For starts I would say that subjective experience would first and foremost be considered to be personal. That is, it is available to everyone on an individual basis.
In other words there is no one who does not have subjective experiences.

Whereas the “objective” would be the public or shareable accounts of these experiences.

Good question. I don't have an answer. I'm open to suggestion. How could I put this anecdotal experience to a valid test of some sort?
What's to test?

The paradoxical 'effort' involved in allowing thought to subside, on purpose, is not something one could whip out on demand.
At least, I sure couldn't.

Yet, even a minimal attempt should make some aspects of my tale more digestible. It could be that there is a subjective aspect to reality.

Clearly, this is fringe study of the brain, and how it works.
yet, there is a body of sub-evidence in this sort of exploration.

Sub-evidence?
Wtf is that?

Self-inquiry, i guess.
And the discovery of the non-existence of the individual self...and possibly the co-commitment of that...the discovery of the universal self.

Raw consciousness.

Evidence?

I could try, of course.
Though it's likely to get ugly.

Just a few points. (IMHO)

I never heard a Scientist say he was going to explain the workings of reality, when push comes to shove they say they are investigating nature.

The subtle difference that I see is that ‘reality’ is pretty intellectual, and it would mean that one would conceivably have to study to understand it; on the other hand nature is pretty much available to everyone. You can know it up close and personal without too much strain on your brain.

The other point that scientists generally make is that there is nothing that is not based in nature, ie. There is no super-natural. So anything we want to investigate will start from the understanding that we are dealing with our interactions with nature.

So, yes I think there is a subjective aspect of reality (nature).

Evidence of “Sub-evidence” of the “the personal (subjective) experience of reality (nature) without the cloud of constant thought process”

First, there are some who feel that this is a physical impossibility that you cannot exist or function without a “constant thought process”. That it cannot be done.

On the other hand, yes there is a wide and varied body of sub-evidence of this sort of investigation, from all over the world and from all times throughout history.

It is a human phenomenon.

People feel that there is something going on where “thinking” about it just falls short, that
all “intellectual’ descriptions and explanations are not addressing the question at hand.

However, this sort of investigation does not lend itself well to an intellectual investigation, which is why you won’t find this activity on the curriculum at your average academy.
In fact going into this investigation with the mindset that you can ‘get it’ intellectually is actually a hindrance to your understanding of the experience.

For example, do you think that someone can understand what a sexual experience is by having someone else describe it and explain it to them, or do you think there is something we can ‘know’ about a sexual experience by actually “experiencing” a sexual experience?

Would you agree that there is a wide gap of difference between the two approaches?

For everything we can say about trees and rivers and forests, for all of the facts we can prove about them there is still some aspect of trees and rivers and forests that we can “know” that is not on the intellectual, describable, shareable level of understanding.

To attempt to understand this experience by intellectual investigation alone is using the wrong tools.

To claim that this experience can be explained by intellectual descriptions alone is missing the entire point.

To tell someone they have to take our word for it on ‘faith’, or on our “authority” is also missing the point, as the “understanding’ is available to anyone who wants to indulge in the exercise being described.