Even though I haven't had the best luck with large beaded putters in the past, I've still talked myself into giving the Judge a try. It seems to feel a little better in my hand than a wizard or kc aviar.

Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. -Lou Holtz -

I got the chance to check out a friend's new discs yesterday...the first run Judges he had felt like good JK Aviars or a stiffer Gateway SSS, pretty nice discs. Didn't throw them but the mold does look very similar to a Wizard. His Lucid Fugitive felt and looked like a nice neutral mid but I also noticed the plastic was really slick. I would like to give the Escape a try myself, the driver section of my bag is all Innova right now with the slight exception of the FD.

I've gotten quite a few throws with the Judge in the last few days. It's fairly high speed stable, and has a very late fade compared to the more overstable putters that I've thrown in the past. It's not so hss though that you can't work a nice soft anhyzer line, and it will flip in a headwind if you put some sauce on it. Long sweeping anhyzers are pretty fun to throw with these. Feels very controllable on approach type shots on various lines.

For putting, I haven't noticed the bead as much since it doesn't feel as deep as a wizard or kc aviar. The classic soft is really nice in the cold conditions, but I really think I'd like to see a slightly less tacky version or just have a standard classic for most conditions, especially summer.

I think I could easily get hooked on these. Dynamic put out a really nice first putter. I actually will probably try the fugitive out just because the Judge has turned out so well in my opinion. It sort of seems like it's a little too fast and a little in between stability categories for me but it's probably worth a look.

Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. -Lou Holtz -

It is astonishing to see how many new disc designs have entered the market. All of these people are still working by the seat of their pants, based on cockamamy conjectures about how a disc flies, and there has been very little accomplished in the technical aspects of making better disc designs, or in the process engineering aspects that would lead to consistency and quality control.

In mathematical modeling there is a method called "Monte Carlo" in which you generate a random selection (say, disc design) and run it through the gambit (make a mold), try it out (throw it), and then measure it's outcome (see if it has a good flight pattern). Over time, by the attrition of brute numbers alone, the desired solution begins to emerge very slowly. The anomaly in any approximate solution (proto design) relative to the ideal solution (desired design) decays as 1/sqrt(N), where N is the number of random trials.

The thing about Monte Carlo is that it can be used for the most difficult problems imaginable, where there are few known ways for a more straightforward solution procedure, and it works quite generally (we can even solve the full Schrödinger equation for any element using this approach...something impossible otherwise). On the other hand, a convergence of 1/sqrt(N) is terribly inefficient (a given mold costs $10K-$20K to produce). To produce a factor of 10 improvement in the residual error requires 100 random trials!

There are much better ways to do things, using scientific and engineering concepts, which would make far superior products than anything we've ever seen on the market, period. But nobody seems to be willing to do things the right way, we have a army of half-ass disc companies with no clear direction, no idea of how to do things better than previously, and just way too excited to just turn out more varieties of discs. But if we want to see a big forward step, we still have to wait for somebody who wants to do things better than before, disc golf has all the skills and talents necessary to make it happen, there is just no willingness to harness it and exploit it.

Nevertheless, there are some good things that can come out of the present situation:-Almost everybody is going to be making discs, effectively democratizing disc design and manufacture, taking it out of the hands of the few and putting it into the hands of the many.-For many of us it is still great fun to try all the molds. Variety is the spice of life, and as a result of the present random processes we get to try an enormous variety of discs that we would not otherwise be able to throw.-Disc manufacture has not yet been relegated to China, it is still a small business, with strong domestic roots.

Production will eventually shift to China, they have better raw materials (plastic) available in China than we have in the US, because the global supply lines all run to China (a gradual shift that takes decades to accomplish, but it is now in place). They already have the manufacturing and process engineering skills in place. But China is very much lacking in disc expertise, to get the most of this opportunity, you'd actually have to go to China and oversee the operation, to get it up and running, and the quality of the product would be limited by your own expertise (so you'd be wise to hire real experts and make them an intrinsic part of the operation). But once you did that, you could produce the very highest quality and consistency discs for an exceedingly small price, and flood the market. Can you imagine being able to buy superb quality plastic (better than KC Pro 11X pearly) with scientifically designed and optimized molds, for as little as $5 apiece?

The emergence of a strong China-based disc manufacturer is going to wipe out most of the other disc makers, they won't be able to compete in that kind of market. But it will be partly a consequence of them going into the business without really striving to be better and more knowledgable about disc design than previous manufacturers, instead just doing the same old same old, re-inventing the wheel, making the same mistakes, and in the end making no real progress toward the goal of better products for less cost.

</rant>

keltik wrote:yeah etcetera is rarely written out but he probably only did because he is a non native speaker of English....

It is Latin, not English. It is used in the same way in many other languages, often (but not always) abbreviated as "etc.."

Once a major player in another field with existing ties to plastic suppliers and cheap labor market manufacturing comes to disc golf that situation could happen. But has it already happened? Aside from the price tag. I don't know what DGP is about and where they make their discs. See a businessman could decide that why should the discs retail for 5 bucks if the manufacturer gets triple or more overhead vs old manufacturers? So far other non low wage companies than US one exist in Finland, Sweden, New Zealand and Germany at least. Or actually Germany has split in the income levels in the last years with a large part of the population working for low wages for an industrial country.

Chinese manufacturing will require constant supervision by experts and leading and managing for a long time. You cannot easily pick up a person from a field and make them make top quality consistent workers without a lot of education.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

It is astonishing to see how many new disc designs have entered the market. All of these people are still working by the seat of their pants, based on cockamamy conjectures about how a disc flies, and there has been very little accomplished in the technical aspects of making better disc designs, or in the process engineering aspects that would lead to consistency and quality control.

In mathematical modeling there is a method called "Monte Carlo" in which you generate a random selection (say, disc design) and run it through the gambit (make a mold), try it out (throw it), and then measure it's outcome (see if it has a good flight pattern). Over time, by the attrition of brute numbers alone, the desired solution begins to emerge very slowly. The anomaly in any approximate solution (proto design) relative to the ideal solution (desired design) decays as 1/sqrt(N), where N is the number of random trials.

The thing about Monte Carlo is that it can be used for the most difficult problems imaginable, where there are few known ways for a more straightforward solution procedure, and it works quite generally (we can even solve the full Schrödinger equation for any element using this approach...something impossible otherwise). On the other hand, a convergence of 1/sqrt(N) is terribly inefficient (a given mold costs $10K-$20K to produce). To produce a factor of 10 improvement in the residual error requires 100 random trials!

There are much better ways to do things, using scientific and engineering concepts, which would make far superior products than anything we've ever seen on the market, period. But nobody seems to be willing to do things the right way, we have a army of half-ass disc companies with no clear direction, no idea of how to do things better than previously, and just way too excited to just turn out more varieties of discs. But if we want to see a big forward step, we still have to wait for somebody who wants to do things better than before, disc golf has all the skills and talents necessary to make it happen, there is just no willingness to harness it and exploit it.

Nevertheless, there are some good things that can come out of the present situation:-Almost everybody is going to be making discs, effectively democratizing disc design and manufacture, taking it out of the hands of the few and putting it into the hands of the many.-For many of us it is still great fun to try all the molds. Variety is the spice of life, and as a result of the present random processes we get to try an enormous variety of discs that we would not otherwise be able to throw.-Disc manufacture has not yet been relegated to China, it is still a small business, with strong domestic roots.

Production will eventually shift to China, they have better raw materials (plastic) available in China than we have in the US, because the global supply lines all run to China (a gradual shift that takes decades to accomplish, but it is now in place). They already have the manufacturing and process engineering skills in place. But China is very much lacking in disc expertise, to get the most of this opportunity, you'd actually have to go to China and oversee the operation, to get it up and running, and the quality of the product would be limited by your own expertise (so you'd be wise to hire real experts and make them an intrinsic part of the operation). But once you did that, you could produce the very highest quality and consistency discs for an exceedingly small price, and flood the market. Can you imagine being able to buy superb quality plastic (better than KC Pro 11X pearly) with scientifically designed and optimized molds, for as little as $5 apiece?

The emergence of a strong China-based disc manufacturer is going to wipe out most of the other disc makers, they won't be able to compete in that kind of market. But it will be partly a consequence of them going into the business without really striving to be better and more knowledgable about disc design than previous manufacturers, instead just doing the same old same old, re-inventing the wheel, making the same mistakes, and in the end making no real progress toward the goal of better products for less cost.

</rant>

keltik wrote:yeah etcetera is rarely written out but he probably only did because he is a non native speaker of English....

It is Latin, not English. It is used in the same way in many other languages, often (but not always) abbreviated as "etc.."

Theres a Chinese disc company, Its called Yikun Sports. They currently have a driver, a mid, and putter; all in super shitty plastic. I've thrown all three in a field, driver was way too flippy for me, but I gave it to some of my ultimate buddies who dont toss golf diss and they were much more successful than me.The mid was very roc like, maybe an exact copy.The putter is my favorite of the bunch, its pretty overstable and flies much different lines than my wizard (the only putter i've really treid driving with). Unfortunately, every time the disc hits chains it gets nicked up, if it hits basket it gets gouged.

Yikun has also created their own basket, which from one use seems like a perfectly usable basket.

I do not think that western DG companies have to fear competition from Yikun sports in the near future. The company is still pretty new, and their goal is to hit the Chinese market first, and there is absolutely no chinese market yet. There are no courses in the country yet, and a huge lack of space to play in any of the eastern cities where people can afford recreational activities. Furthermore, the owner seems more concerned with selling the discs he has now (shitty plastic) than making any decent products.

JHern wrote:It is Latin, not English. It is used in the same way in many other languages, often (but not always) abbreviated as "etc.."

I brought that up because my wife is a non-native English speaker and when et cetera is said in her native language they say "eh teh ceh eh teh ceh" (or something like that) whereas we say "et cetera et cetera". My wife's native language is Latin based. Writing in a language that is not your own can be difficult. I generally applaud our European forum members for their excellent use of diction, syntax and spelling in English.

As for Chinese made discs, what about Ching? Those are just flying off the shelves...

Back to DD:

I have all four of these now (all First Runs)

Trespass: like a slightly more stable Sword.Escape: like a slightly more stable Saint.Fugitive: reminds me of an ESP Wasp but in Opto.Judge: Gummy shallow feeling Wizard that flies more like a Focus (more turn).

I like them all. The Trespass doesn't do as well in the wind as I'd hoped but is still a good driver. Escape/Saint are in limbo as a general category. I'm heavily invested in the Avenger but I've been using Eagle-X lately. Fugitive is a hot contender. I have a 171g pink one but want a max weight in the same color. may be a while before I can get one. I want the Judge in a stiff plastic just to see what's what. PDGA flex standards be damned.

I had the pleasure of test throwing a BioFuzion Trespass yesterday and I have to say that I am very impressed with this disc. The early part of the flight reminds me of a Destroyer, but the later part reminds me of a Force. It has a great combo of speed, glide and stability. IMO, it is a step up from either of those two molds. The Sword is somewhat comparable to it, but doesn't have the late fade like the Trespass has. I would like to try a Lucid Trespass to see if it is comparable. I could see a Trespass/Sword setup being an effective distance driver combo.

Now...on a side note. I recently came into possession of a Fuzion Judge and I have to say, it is a pleasant surprise. It is surprisingly overstable.

Also started testing the Bio Fugitive. I found it to be somewhat similar to a Glo or Midnight Comet, maybe a tick more overstable. The Lucid Fugitive is a fair bit more understable comparatively.

The Trespass is still my go to distance driver. I really like the lucid version. I think I would really like to try an Escape as I have been test throwing a Saint the past few weeks and have really liked it, other than I wish it were a little more overstable.

Fondled some Lucid Trespasses yesterday and was very tempted to buy one, but didn't because I already have several Wraiths that I never use and they seem similar in regard to rim width and shape but not plastic texture. Seemed softer and, for lack of a better word, chalkier than Champion, which seems like a good thing to me. Has anyone gotten in enough throws to compare Wraith to Trespass? And Lucid plastic in terms of grip and endurance?

Wizards/Jokeri/Fuse/Buzzz/Gator/XLs/Teebirds/XXX/PDs

Disc Golf (n): A game in which a round plastic object is thrown into trees until it is beat in to resemble its preferred flight characteristics, at which point it is thrown into a lake.