what I'm thinking tooif I knew where point is in the buffer...well (save-excursion to the rescue

quotemstr

Pet peeve of the day: Wikipedia articles that link to what look like additional interesting articles, but that are actually just redirects back to the original page."Hrm, I've seen these pictures before. Wikimedia commons must be running low... no, this IS the same page."

yonkeltron

would someone who was alive then confirm that this is for real, please? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup_as_a_vegetable

jordanb_

YesThat was a huge deal.I was very young, but my parents have talked about it.

yonkeltron

that's nuts.

jordanb_

What do you want them to do?!?! Raise Taxes!??!They have aircraft carriers to pay for.

cvandusen

Frank Zappa made a big deal about it on his '88 toura couple of which were released on CDThere was also confinement loaf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutraloaf

yonkeltron

that's rediculous

quotemstr

yonkeltron: Unfortunately, Ronald Reagan wasn't made up to frighten children.

fledermaus

quotemstr: and there's palin yet to come... (scary, no?)

yonkeltron

yes. very scary.

cvandusen

The moral majority's kept boy

yonkeltron

i be she's a vim user, too

quotemstr

fledermaus: When Palin comes to power, I'm leaving the country.

yonkeltron

never have i needed more incentive to finally move to israelor canadaor...anywhere, really

cvandusen

quotemstr: just the fact that it is mentioned that she could come to power is reason to consider moving

quotemstr

yonkeltron: The continuing beatification of Ronald Reagan by some on the right is highly disturbing.

Uhm...Maybe not in the US; but it seems to be working more or less here in Switzerland.

yonkeltron

do you have more than two parties?

kensanata

Sure.

ivan-kanis

well healthcare is tricky, it *does* cost money which in a strictly capitalist view you need to pay for it...

bpalmer

kensanata: nation-wide referenda on building architecture?

kensanata

bpalmer: Hehe. :)Democracy!

ivan-kanis

kensanata: oh yeah, how about the law agains mosque towers?

kensanata

Mistakes are made. But that doesn't mean "it doesn't work"

yonkeltron

ivan-kanis: true, it does cost money. but when the people who make the budget and somehow make multi-million dollar pencil bills fit in the budget tell you that they can pay for it elsewhere, we should listen.

kensanata

ivan-kanis: It was an initiative, ie. an addition to the constitution, and we don't have constitutional courts, thus there is no law, yet.

bpalmer

pfft. When you look at how irrational humans are... neither capitalism nor democracy have a chance at working. Much less anything else.

kensanata

ivan-kanis: And when a law is proposed, there will be another opportunity to fight it with a referendum.

ivan-kanis

kensanata: that's a relief

fledermaus

anyway, the two biggest parties here want to bleed as much tax money away frm the health service into private hands as possible, under the guise of choice.

rgr

the whole point of a governkment mkaing it a policy is that rich people didnt get rich helping poor people. The cost of medicine in the US is kept artificially high on purpose.

kensanata

ivan-kanis: Also, there's the Strasbourg court of human rights once we have a law and a court case, so I'm not too concerned, yet.

ivan-kanis

yonkeltron: i'd think the money that the US spends on war would be better spend on healthcare, but hey that's my opinion...

yonkeltron

we should all get implants and go back to direct democracy. we'll have 20 minutes a day for "national voting time" when we'll all sit quietly and transmit our will on the issue of the day.

rgr

most people who argue against contributing for "poor people" inherited their cash anyway ....

fledermaus

then once they've starved the health service nearly to death, they'll claim it is ineffective and shut it down, with massive kickbacks all round from the privat companies to the ministers and civil servants involved

yonkeltron

of course.

cvandusen

fledermaus: exactly

bpalmer

yonkeltron: I can foresee the political ads people stealing ideas from the beer commercials.

kensanata

What I found laughable was that the US was trying to make their healthcare system more like the swiss, which is ... guess what! ... the second most expensive healthcare system on this planet.Way to go. :)

yonkeltron

ivan-kanis: i agree with you in many ways. however, medicare is defrauded quite easily and if that could be stopped, then there'd be quite a bit of money floating around.

ivan-kanis

fledermaus: I didn't feel health care was very good in England, in France you still *pay* your doctor, you are reimbursed later, I think it makes a difference

bpalmer

kensanata: the best analysis I saw of that is that Switzerland and the US both are very federal, and both are very new health care systems. Most European countries got their basic systems in place before WW2, before the private insurers really got entrenched

ivan-kanis

kensanata: no way, you mean per person?

fledermaus

bpalmer: after wwii, shirley.just after, I believe.kensanata: 2nd most expensive is still an improvement from most expensive...

bpalmer

ok, fair enough. Switzerland's is, what, 1970s?

ivan-kanis

the socialist healthcare works with post WWII demographic : lots of young workers, people dying younger

andre-r

hello

ivan-kanis

now the demographic is turned around and our healthcare is losing money big time

fledermaus

ivan-kanis: point to consider: somebody paid for the care and feeding of that population bulge when those people were young and not earning money - so why is it suddenly impossible to pay for their care now?

bpalmer

at any rate, the argument is that simply nationalizing health care and firing all the overhead would be incredibly disruptive.

ivan-kanis

I guess we'll retire at 80, how depressing :(

kensanata

ivan-kanis: The demographic argument has been debunked by a paper I read in regards to pensions.

fledermaus

ivan-kanis: well, I guess I don't need to worry, we mostly die in our 60s in my family.

kensanata

fledermaus: Ugh.

ivan-kanis

fledermaus: what consolation ;)

fledermaus

the ones that don't crack up and go insane in their 50s, at any rate

ivan-kanis

fledermaus: good point, i haven't thought of that...

uwjweq

vc- how to compare with previous version?

ivan-kanis

fledermaus: i guest the post war boom helped a lot: no unemployment and money swishing around to rebuilduwjweq: oh a question on topic

fledermaus

ivan-kanis: wasn't so much of a boom outside the US, I believe - europe had a lot of war debt to pay off

ivan-kanis

uwjweq: C-x v =

yonkeltron

congress gets good healthcare, veterans get good healthcare

fledermaus

so really we're _better_ off now than then, we just waste money that could be spent on social stuff on ridiculous wars instead.

ivan-kanis

(Action) nods

fledermaus

speaking of ridiculous expense, I really wish we hadn't won the olympics.

ivan-kanis

haha

fledermaus

damn you, france! you were supposed to _win_!

ivan-kanis

you deserve it, it should have been Paris :)

fledermaus

at least I don't work in london any more.

ivan-kanis

if it weren't for Blair hob knobbing the olympic committee I am sure we would have it

fledermaus

hob-nobbingknobbing means something _entirely_ different.

ivan-kanis

i was thinkin of hob knobs

fledermaus

no k

ivan-kanis

the biscuit is spelt like that?oh ok

uwjweq

ivan-kanis: I know about C-x v = . It is not what I need. I need to have a div between this revision and the previous.

yonkeltron

won the olympics?how can someone win the olympics?

ivan-kanis

uwjweq: I don't think emacs does that, you need to use your version control system on CLIKnob \Knob\, n. [A modification of knop. Cf. Nob.] 1. A hard protuberance; a hard swelling or rising; a bunch; a lump; as, a knob in the flesh, or on a bone.oh dear

Normally this compares the currently selected fileset with their ..[Type ,more]

cvandusen

,more

fsbot

working revisions. With a prefix argument HISTORIC, it reads two revisiondesignators specifying which revisions to compare.

yonkeltron

but canada had 14 of them gold

fsbot

The optional argument NOT-URGENT non-nil means it is ok to say no tosaving the buffer.

ivan-kanis

i learn something about emacs every day...well sadly not everydayit'd be more fun to learn something everyday

cvandusen

ivan-kanis: if I learned something new every day, I wouldn't have time to practice the previously learned things.

ivan-kanis

fledermaus: european countries must have been in debt after WWII but it must have been euphoric times after the end of the war

dim

mmm, I have some content in variables, how to get them to a file?(elisp) Writing to Filesthat should do

fledermaus

ivan-kanis: actually it was pretty grim for along time after, I've read

quotemstr

ivan-kanis: Not really.

fledermaus

rationing didn't stop for quite a while

quotemstr

In German until 1950 or so, there was mass starvation even in the allied-occupied zones.

fledermaus

the UK was broke, and had to pay substantial money to the US for wwii loans

quotemstr

People have this vision of the Marshall Plan as some enlightened response that was enacted as soon as the war ended.

fledermaus

we only finished paying off the US recently.

ivan-kanis

fledermaus: so how in this dire economy did social healthcare emerge?

quotemstr

Actually, the prevailing mood was "let's PUNISH the Germans. Punish them HARD" until economists realized that Germany's economy being in shambles was dragging the rest of Europe down

fledermaus

ivan-kanis: socialismpeople wanted healthcare and they were willing to pay the tax to get it because it was recognised as a good thing.

ivan-kanis

hmm this marshall plan is interesting, cash for not being communist

fledermaus

and I guess the politicians in power weren't as corrupt and self serving as they are now.that's not to say it was easy, it was a staggering achievement.

ivan-kanis

(Action) skims F# introduction

sECuRE

hi there. i have a problem with emacs not being rendered correctly in my window manager (i3). it has to be some problem with the way emacs handles configurenotify events and/or updates its size hints. anyone here knows a little about that area in emacs so that i can explain the problem in depth?(the symptoms are that the bottom bar is disappearing sometimes. probably because emacs assumes the wrong window size)

fledermaus

i3?

sECuRE

see http://i3.zekjur.net

ivan-kanis

http://i3.zekjur.net/oops

fledermaus

not familiar with it. does it happen just after startup or at some other time?

sECuRE

just when starting emacs. after i resize it, everything is fine again

ivan-kanis

sECuRE: I see it happen on boring metacity, i just resize a bit and it goes away