O'HARA: This is an unrehearsed interview with A. D. Albright at his home

in Wilmore, Kentucky on July 13, 2004, conducted by Adina O'Hara. DrAlbright, in the 1962 Legislative Session, a community college billwas passed authorizing the University of Kentucky Board of Trustees toestablish a system of public community colleges. What was your role inthe creation of a system of public two-year colleges?

ALBRIGHT: Well, it was not, uh, initially a, a direct connection. Uh,

at that time, the university had some forerunners of the community1:00colleges in what were, what, uh, I guess was called extension centers.Uh, one was at Northern--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --Kentucky. Another one was, uh, at Madisonville, and the

one at Madisonville was unique. It was unique in higher education inKentucky. Uh, I, I can talk about that a minute or two.

O'HARA: Sure, sure. You can elaborate on it.

ALBRIGHT: It was at Madisonville, the extension center was ---------(??)

say, was unique. It was out of that, uh, background that the communitycollege was located in the, in that area, was located in Madisonville;and, uh, it just, uh, almost, uh, moved from that extension center intoa community college. Uh, at, uh, Northern Kentucky, it was not a, uh,3:00a similar situation. It was, uh, more metropolitan.

O'HARA: And that was the first one that was started, correct, in 1948?

ALBRIGHT: I believe that's right. Um-hm. And so, uh, I guess that was

my part, in the early days, anyway.

O'HARA: Well, we know the outcomes of those talks about creating a

community college system. We do not know how this agreement wasreached. Because you were executive dean of extended programs from1954 to 1960 and provost of the University of Kentucky from 1960 to1962, you can explain how the recommendation for a statewide system of4:00public two-year colleges was discussed at UK.

ALBRIGHT: Well, I think, initially, the, the discussions were more

heavily engaged in outside of the university. I think there was a, a,certainly, a-, an awareness that, uh, Kentucky was not keeping up withsome of the other states in offering two-year college work. Uh, someof those states, you already know you've had, uh--5:00

O'HARA: Florida and North Carolina?

ALBRIGHT: Florida is one; North Carolina's another and South Carolina.

O'HARA: Hmm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, the, so I think legislators and others, business people,

became more interested in this, and I believe in one of the otherinterviews we talked about, uh, Bert Combs.

O'HARA: Yes. How, how instrumental was his role?

ALBRIGHT: It was instrumental. (O'Hara laughs) Uh, he was pretty much

determined, I'm sure, by, with backing of quite a number of people who6:00have interest, had interest in community college education. Uh, he wasconvinced that during his term--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --uh, there was going to be a community college system s-, uh,

started in this state.

O'HARA: Where do you think he got that idea from? Did he come into

office with it already, or--did he--

ALBRIGHT: I think, I think he had some idea before he, uh, came into

office of governor. Uh, I believe he understood very well, at leastthe needs in Eastern Kentucky--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --from which he came. Uh, but the education level needed to

be, it was true of the whole state, of course, but, uh, it needed to7:00be, uh, uh, the level, educational level needed to be, uh, increased.Uh, there was the, an emerging need for people with certain vocationalor technical training--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT:--uh, that would supply, uh, prepared workers and operators,

uh, for what was vision, visualized as being needed in the developmentof the economic and social conditions of the state. So, uh, he, uh,8:00uh, he pushed it.

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: And, and of course, the university, uh, different individuals

in the university, uh, had an interest in it, uh, "it" meaning thecommunity college system. It did, didn't, it was not full-blown all atone, one time, uh, it, uh, developed over a little period of time, thatis, where they were located and all that.

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, huh, the Governor did not, uh, I believe, want a, a

9:00community college placed at, uh, Cumberland in Eastern Kentucky. Ithink he preferred that it be at, uh, uh, Whitesburg.

O'HARA: Is that his home town, or--

ALBRIGHT: Hmm?

O'HARA: Prestonsburg was his home town?

ALBRIGHT: He was at Prestonsburg for, yes, of course it had one, got

one--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: But, uh, I, I think, uh, he preferred, uh, that there be one

ALBRIGHT: Uh, now, the Governor acted as though there was some urgency--

O'HARA: Hmm.

ALBRIGHT: --to the establishment of community colleges. And of course

if it were going occur during his tenure--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --as governor, uh, he didn't have a lot of time. So the big

question came, I'm sure, well, how can you set these up, how, how can11:00you, uh, get taxation so that, uh, they can be supported? Well, theuniversity, I mean, uh, the state did not have taxing districts forcommunity colleges; except there were two already in existence. Theywere not state community colleges, they weren't community colleges,they were junior colleges. One was at, at, uh, Ashland, the AshlandCommunity College, uh, Junior College, and the other one at Paducah.And, uh, those were when, when the others began to emerge, and the12:00university became the, well, answer, really, to being the source offunding.

O'HARA: Mm.

ALBRIGHT: That is this, you mentioned the, uh, legislation?

O'HARA: Yes.

ALBRIGHT: Well, that meant that, uh, it would have taken time to have

gone to taxing districts; for one thing, where you were gonna putthe community college would have to be somewhat determined first; andthen you'd decide whether or not, or people would decide, whether they13:00wanted a taxing district to support the college in that place. So, uh,that's the main, contrary to what you may hear, uh, I believe that's,uh, why, one reason, the main reason, time available to get it moving,secondly, uh, a, a governance, uh, arrangement in the university, andthird, the taxing district.

O'HARA: Funding source, funding it.

ALBRIGHT: Funding source, yeah.

O'HARA: Quick funding source?

ALBRIGHT: Right.

O'HARA: Now how did the university provide, uh, funds that, that Combs

could not find any place else?

ALBRIGHT: Well, it, initially it was not, was not full-blown, anyway.

14:00So it wasn't as though you had twelve or thirteen or fourteen communitycolleges, uh, on, uh, Friday or Monday, and you had to have decided onthe support on Friday. It was a bit more evolutionary than that, but,of course, the legislature, having passed that law, could provide fundsto the university for the community colleges. You may have run intothis, but later on, there was a, for, for several years, that the, the,the university was taken to, really to task, for not having put as much15:00in the community colleges as some people thought the community collegeswere entitled to. As a ma-, it came up in the legislature, uh, Ican't tell you off-hand what year that was, but it was somewhat, uh,later than, uh, when we started. The university, uh, by and large, uh,looked on the community college, uh, system as a source of students.

O'HARA: Hmm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, if, if, uh, the students were going to an arm of what

amounted to the University of Kentucky, you would expect many of thosestudents to transfer to Lexington.16:00

O'HARA: So the university was, um, open to the idea of having community

in Kentucky you probably are always gonna have somebody, huh, whodoesn't agree with what you want to do. (O'Hara laughs) But, uh, therewas the feeling that the community colleges might take some things awayfrom the university, things meaning support--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --uh, and, uh, service, and to that extent, uh, there was a

bit of, uh, uh, a little anxiety. And, uh, as it happened, the reason17:00this question came up in the legislature about the university, uh, not,uh, providing as much of the funds to the community colleges as somepeople thought the community colleges were entitled to--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --that's, and that was, uh, oh, that was fairly re-, recent.

Uh, it was during Dr Wethington's presidency at the university.And some adjustment was made in the allocation, going to communitycolleges. But by, by and large, the, the university looked upon thecommunity colleges as a source of students, additional students. There18:00was also the matter of the political influence.

colleges located all over this state, and, uh, to think that thereis not a political interest--(laughs)--would be, uh, naive. And,uh, so that was viewed as another reason that the university would beinterested in having this tie, or responsibility, for the communitycolleges. Uh, now one of your questions, uh, was, what about the,19:00uh, regional?

O'HARA: Yes. Yes.

ALBRIGHT: Well--

O'HARA: How did they resolve the issue, um, documentation in the,

in the archives and primarily through newspapers, um, showed thatthe regionals, uh, were not happy about the university of Kentuckygoverning the community college system. And in one case, the caseof Morehead, they even proposed legislation, or had, had one of theirlegislators propose legislation that Morehead have its own communitycollege in Prestonsburg.

ALBRIGHT: Well, uh, there was not a push to, uh, put a community college

operated by the university right in the back door of the institution,the other institutions. But, uh, there was, there was some open, uh,21:00opposition, I believe, uh, mainly voiced by Dr Doran, Adron Doran (??)--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --who was at Morehead for twenty-five, twenty-three or four

years, uh, as president. But he voiced, uh, what, I believe was, musthave been the feeling of the, all the regional institutions. But it,it, uh, it was, uh, after it, it had gained momentum, "it" meaningthe community college idea, had gained momentum, uh, it was prettydifficult to thwart it, and the idea grew as communities thought abouthaving a community college near them or close to them and what it meantfor their kids and so on. Uh, so the, uh, regional institutions, Ithink decided not to, not to fight it, uh, politically, openly in thelegislature.

comprehensive institutions. Uh, but, uh, and, uh, there was someinterest in, I don't know in, whether in all of 'em or not, but one ofthe institutions proposed to start a law school. Another one proposedto start a school of veterinary medicine, and so on. This was a wayof, uh, counteracting. I, that may not be g-, a good word in this23:00instance, but of, uh, overcoming--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --uh, this matter of the, uh, the effect of the community

colleges. Uh, neither of those instances worked, however. The, uh,veterinary medicine didn't make it and the law school, I know their lawschool didn't make it. Uh--

O'HARA: --this, um, this sort of leads into another question. In oral

history interviews, after asking a person why a decision was made,we often ask next why a different result did not occur. During thediscussions about building a community college system, did you at anytime expect a different result, a different governing structure, suchas an independent board or the regionals having their own?24:00

ALBRIGHT: Not at the time, because, uh, if they wanted, wanted to move

and move quickly and for the reasons I've mentioned--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --there really wasn't a plausible alternative. And, uh, I

think, uh, once, once it was launched, uh, there were an increasingnumber of people who got on board the train. Uh, it, had it, uh,started in another way, it probably might have been divided, uh,uh, the format would have been different, might have been more like,25:00uh, let's say, Florida or North Carolina or South Carolina. Uh, themovement, uh, was going to, was going to come at some point, not as,maybe not quite as soon or quite as quickly as, uh, the way it did.

O'HARA: Combs assured that it did occur, and he found a way to do it.

ALBRIGHT: Right.

O'HARA: Um, and that's what, um, has led to a unique governance

arrangement, um, and has been considered unique across the nation,having a community college system under the state's flagship and landgrant institution.

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm.

O'HARA: Some states developed independent government structures for

their community college system, such as Florida and North Carolina.26:00

ALBRIGHT: Right.

O'HARA: While, other states chose to develop four-year branch campuses

of their institution--

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm.

O'HARA: --as was the cases in Indiana and, uh--

ALBRIGHT: Right.

O'HARA: --you see that in several cases.

ALBRIGHT: Well--

O'HARA: --um--

ALBRIGHT: --excuse me.

O'HARA: Oh no, go right ahead.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, you mentioned Indiana.

O'HARA: Yes.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, there would be two of the major comprehensive universities

that would go together in Indiana, like in Fort Wayne--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --or Indianapolis to establish a single, like, uh, Indiana

University, Purdue University in, uh, we'll say Indianapolis. Butthere were other places in Indiana where they had don't, which was,um, I think, gave, uh, quite a few people elsewhere a notion that, uh,27:00maybe it was time for cooperation between institutions with the sameinterests--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --not duplicating and, uh, so on. Uh, well, that's another

story. (O'Hara laughs)

O'HARA: Did that have an effect on Kentucky in the 1960s, the idea of

cooperation among institutions?

ALBRIGHT: Well--(pause)--let's see, it was a little bit later that

there was a, a move to--a bit different than Indiana, put U of L and28:00UK together into a commonwealth university of Kentucky. Uh, well, asI say, that's another story. (O'Hara laughs) But, uh, it was close tohappening until it, the, the idea picked up some political--

29:00been wondering about, maybe you could shed some light on. GovernorCombs created, um, a commission on the study of public higher educationin 1960 and soon after coming to office, and, um, I'm trying tounderstand the reasons why he called a commission together. Thenewspapers basically, um, you know, point out that, uh, with so manypeople going to the legislature and asking for extension branches instate colleges--

ALBRIGHT: Hmm.

O'HARA: --there was a call to the commission. The commission, um, gave

its report in November of '61 to the Governor; and in its report it hadtwo proposals. It proposed a super board as a governing structure forall public institutions--

ALBRIGHT: Mm.

O'HARA: --in Kentucky; it also proposed an independent government

30:00structure for community colleges. What do you think GovernorCombs' intentions were in creating a commission that gave him suchrecommendations?

reason that this was brought in. That could, because, uh, regionalswould almost have to do it, and, and, uh, UK might have to. WesternKentucky is a long way away from Lexington. And, uh, there, there was31:00this notion that, uh, that, uh, higher education ought to be broughtcloser to the people, available to more people, closer to home. Now,many of them might drive to Pittsburgh to, uh, go to a concert orsomething like that, but, uh, thirty miles was a little bit too longto drive to get an education--(both laugh)--uh, I think another thingalong that line is, uh, I've forgotten the name of the fellow whoheaded that, uh, at the time--

was busy doing something else, mostly. Uh, but it represented a timewhen higher education needed to be looked at.

O'HARA: Hmm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, eight institutions, how many more do we need? How many

35:00of the eight do we need? What about the locations, the accessibilityin relationship to this interest of the people who want access, wantedaccess to education for their kids? And there was a multiple list ofquestions that, uh, uh, and Governor Combs, he was aware of those, and,uh, he was, uh, sensitive to those questions and interests and so on.Actually, that matter of a single board for all the higher educationdid not, uh, go out of style entirely, uh, after that commission.36:00

O'HARA: Really?

ALBRIGHT: Uh, when I was at the, at the, director of the council on

higher education, the Senator called me up and said, uh, well, said,uh,"When are we going to consider a single state board for highereducation?" And, uh, huh, I remember what I said. I said, "Clyde, it'sa good idea, but its time has not yet come." Well, a couple of yearslater he brought it up again. (both laugh) I said, "Still, its time hasnot yet come." (O'Hara laughs) And, uh, but, uh, Governor Combs wanted37:00people, and especially people in higher education, to take a look at,uh, this bigger picture of the whole, uh, complex of higher education.

O'HARA: So even though he didn't, wasn't able to implement, um, his

commission recommendation, he still felt that there was a, a realpurpose for looking at it.

ALBRIGHT: Yes, oh yes.

O'HARA: It wasn't just a, a, you know, well, let's do this to appease

the groups and have a commission.

ALBRIGHT: Right.

O'HARA: It, it was a serious endeavor, it was a, very important to him.

ALBRIGHT: And it was time; it needed to be done, and, of course, with

his advocacy of the community college system--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --being, uh, developed, uh, that was, it fit, uh, at the time.

38:00Uh, it was kind of the i-, the notion that, uh, any good idea has itstime. Uh, but he didn-, he was not going to lose, uh, the communitycolleges system, uh, by diversion either; it would be my opinion.

O'HARA: And what do you mean by diversion?

ALBRIGHT: To, uh, get wrapped up into say a state board, the proposition

of a state board.

O'HARA: Cause it takes so much more time?

ALBRIGHT: ------------(??) Hmm?

O'HARA: Because it's so time consuming? You think that, like you said,

ALBRIGHT: And, uh, all of, each of the institutions had its following,

and, uh, that was something that, at that time, needed to be reckonedwith. There is a vestige of that now that, uh, really should haveattention, but it's not going to, uh, for some time, in my opinion.That's, what about Kentucky State?

O'HARA: It's been looked at multiple times, across its history.

ALBRIGHT: Uh--

O'HARA: I think I read some, somewhere that, uh, at one point they,

40:00I read a news article, that at one point they even considered havingKentucky State become a community college. Were you aware of that?

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm.

O'HARA: What was that story?

ALBRIGHT: Well, as far as I know, there is not, was not a, much of a

push for that. Uh, there are some people who think, still, that itshould be. There are others who feel that since it is a land grantinstitution, it should be a part of the University of Kentucky. Well,why isn't it? Huh. Well, we know the, we know the answer to that.41:00And, uh, as a matter of fact, uh, that very likely will be up againbefore long. Uh--

O'HARA: History does seem to repeat itself.

ALBRIGHT: Hmm?

O'HARA: History does seem to repeat itself.

ALBRIGHT: Well, yes, and some people don't forget their ideas. Um, the,

uh, black people in Kentucky, uh, some of them, feel that it'd be agood, uh, idea, to meld it into, uh, higher education rather than asa separate institution for blacks. But, uh, they want to be sure that42:00they get fair and, not necessarily equal treatment, but fair treatment.And they, they're not convinced, many are not convinced of that. Thatreminds me, and this is a digression, uh, Governor, uh, Ford wanted,uh, to find a, a black professional person in the state to appoint toone of the boards, and it, he asked me to do it, find somebody. And,43:00uh, I found, huh, a veterinarian in Eastern Kentucky who was a, uh,well he got his, uh, degree out of Ohio State. He was a successfulprofessional, well-respected and so on, and I'll swear, I believe if,uh, I'd have had to have found two, uh, I'd have probably been firedbecause ----------(??). (O'Hara laughs)

O'HARA: I sure do. (both laugh) Critics have attacked the UK community

college system since its conception. You, you've (??) briefly noteddifferent times that they brought issues--what were the benefits anddrawbacks of having one government structure for the state researchuniversity and community college system?

ALBRIGHT: Well, I've mentioned one already, and whether or not community

colleges get a fair shake.

O'HARA: Funding sources?

ALBRIGHT: Right. And also, uh, did they, or were they getting enough

of the professional help that you could expect from the faculty andthe administrators of the university out here to help the community45:00colleges. Up to, those were two things. Uh, the, uh, and maybe, uh,the university probably didn't pay as much attention to what they couldhave done to, uh, expedite or encourage or develop, uh, the communitycollege system. And, therefore, some people thought they were sort ofshort-changed. But there's another side to that coin, while a, a majorgraduate institution or the one that proposes to be one, and where46:00there is a great need in the state for the development of one--

if the state continues to, continues its policy of neglect to qualityof education, schools may suffer." These look like some really goodarticles. You wrote this one.

ALBRIGHT: Yeah.

O'HARA: And, I'm looking for the date.

ALBRIGHT: That appeared in the, uh, Owensboro--

O'HARA: Oh, really?

ALBRIGHT: --I believe. Now what was this one?

O'HARA: This one is, yes, in the Owensboro Messenger Inquirer on March 6

1994, "One Policy Needed for Public, Private Schools."

ALBRIGHT: Yeah. Now, let me just talk about that situation a little

bit. I had something to do with the, even though I was not a partof the community colleges, at the time I think I was, uh, executive48:00vice president, but anyway, here was this, we established a communitycollege in Owensboro, mainly because, uh, many of the citizens downthere felt they needed that kind of an institution that would providea lower cost education to an increasing number of kids in that area,or people. Well, here was the situation that it was in. There was aprivate institution, Brescia--

community college. In addition to that there was Western; and then inaddition to that was some interest and work of UK in general. Now whatkind of a, well, that is, uh, what that article is, you got, if, if,uh, if you'll, uh, make a copy--

O'HARA: Sure.

ALBRIGHT: --and, uh--

O'HARA: I'd love to read these.

ALBRIGHT: --uh, you're welcome to it, but it's a part of the history.

O'HARA: Thank you very much. Yes. They're very interesting. You

brought up a good, something, you brought up Owensboro, and a questionthat I was thinking about, even though I'm dealing with the early 1960s50:00in my dissertation, Owensboro, sometimes it's important to ask, Whywasn't a community college put in Owensboro? Um, you know, sometimesit's good to ask, Why didn't something happen?

ALBRIGHT: Yeah. Well I think, in part, was because of the presence of

two private institutions, uh, helped, they, I think people down theredid not want to diminish the two private institutions, but they neededsomething that the two private institutions didn't provide, that wasmore low cost infor-, uh, education.

programs, may have been in, uh, education, professional education.Uh, well, I don't, I'm not sure what it was now, but anyway, uh, and Ithink, uh, Murray was in to it too. So it was a ----------(??) mixture.

O'HARA: So, uh, if, if for decades, all the regionals and the university

of Kentucky have had these satellite campuses in one form or another,and continue to, correct, that they had satellites going on in theearly 1960s when the community college was created, the communitycollege system?. So it's been an ongoing mixture?52:00

ALBRIGHT: Uh--

O'HARA: Would you say, is that correct?

ALBRIGHT: ----------(??)--

O'HARA: That--

ALBRIGHT: Uh, not, maybe not in the early sixties, but in the sixties.

O'HARA: Okay.

ALBRIGHT: The extension centers or that kind of thing. And, uh, then

some established, uh, their own, well they, they could, according tothe legislation, if I remember correctly--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --it was that other institutions could establish a community

while back, it's, it's, uh, there's a, I think, quite a bit of materialthere, or was, on whether or not it's on this, I don't know, but youcould bet that, that there's bound to be something there on this,because he thought it was pretty important.

O'HARA: Yes. It sounds very promising.

ALBRIGHT: Along that score, the ----------(??), as we've said, a lot

of people felt that, uh, it would put the university, because thatwas, uh, where the Governor wanted it. The Governor (??) wanted thatcommunity college system going, that's what he wanted. And he, he was60:00a good, uh, good enough architect to think, to know that in that timethat's made sense.

O'HARA: He found a way.

ALBRIGHT: I, uh, remember one time, this is another diversion, you'll

forgive me--

O'HARA: No, please, I enjoy them.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, I don't know why I was over there, uh, in his office, one

reason, I think, was that there was a friend of mine from Tennessee hadbeen up here on business and to talk with him and, and somehow it gotaround to, well, to my going to see Governor Combs--

O'HARA: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --and we were just chatting and, uh, all of a sudden he

61:00said, uh, "Have you ever thought about, uh, becoming president of aninstitution?" I said, uh, "Not really, but, uh, my question to you is,Governor, do you think I'm qualified?" Hmm. We had sandwiches, and hesaid, "This is a pretty good sandwich, isn't it?" (both laugh)