macrumors 6502

i totally agree...i wasnt suggesting that you shouldnt have takent he pics at all...just saying i dont like the act

alot of us here dont love bush, but he is our president...and despite his return to reagonomics and trying to start another military buildup that will trash our economy..i dont get why people in the UK hate him so much (pre Iraqgate)

oh and what was with the "free palestine" stuff?
i wasnt aware they were incarcerated and WTF does that have to do with the iraq situation?
protestors always muddying their own waters

macrumors 68020

It's a good thing that some people are very active about their thoughts on the war. I love the bush poster...

I can understand some people's reasons for not wanting to go to war, but some groups just puzzle me... Like green peace. Sure, peace is great and all, but if there is some 'non-peace' now, then it'll ensure more time for peace in the future, so saddam doesn't make his own 'non-peace' and **** everybody else over. It must be understood that the only way to fight evil is with evil actions. Well, it might not be the only way, but it's the quickest, easiest, and most effecient way.

Anyways, these people have their right to protest, and I'm not going to try to stop them.

macrumors 6502

well again...no one is keeping the palestinians where they are. they can leave. Israel and its people have a right to a place to live too.

Also, im sure MrMacman meant that the palestinians arent being sytematically hunted down and killed or held in confinement.

besides, free palestine? maybe you missed your comment. They kill each other. they are as much to blame as the jews are!

and AMERICANS are a bunch of moronic drooling thugs? who the hell are the ones killing each other for the past decade or so?

we may not pay attention to every detail of foreign affairs because we are busy working to support the most powerful nation in the world so it can try to babysit the rest of you who "just kill each other for decades"

macrumors 65816

well again...no one is keeping the palestinians where they are. they can leave. Israel and its people have a right to a place to live too.

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Jeez - how should I start in answering this one?!?

Well;

It was the British that gave Palestine (not "Israel") to the Jewish people back in 1947, in compensation for the horrendous persecution they endured during WWII.

The Palestinians, the indigenous population of the former Palestine, should NOT have to move out of their own country.

How would you like it if your country was given away - and YOU were evicted; losing your land, your rights and your freedom? I doubt whether you'd like it one bit. You fought hard for your freedom - and I'm betting you'd go down fighting. All these people are asking for is for their rights as individuals. Everywhere else in the democratic world believes in freedom and liberty for all - be they Arabic, Catholic, Buddhist, Jewish, or anyone else for that matter. Why then, do the Israelis not recognise the PLO as a valid political movement? They choose not to recognise the Palestinians at all - instead, placing them in Palestinian "areas", much like American Indian reservations, and giving them identity cards. They don't even have a vote...

And now, it seems the Palestinians are being ousted from their territories to make way for more Israeli settlers - and it is usually done by force.

I've been to Israel on a number of occasions, and have seen how both sides work. Whilst I'm not an advocate of violence, and even suicide bombings (I've filmed the aftermath of blown-up buses, and bombed-out cafes, seeing what was left of victims being placed in plastic bags - it's not nice...), I can see the despiration of the Palestinians.

For a race of people who have seen so much hardship and atrocities, I find it ironic that the Israelis are turning into everything they hated 60 years ago.

macrumors member

To all who marched on Saturday in support of Saddam: You have reduced the chances that Saddam will be disarmed by some means other than force, instead, you have increased the chances that war will ensue. You have given him aid and comfort in his defiance instead of telling him to comply with the UN and disarm as he agreed to do so many years ago.

Today, whatever your feelings and intentions, you were marching for Saddam.

kiwi_the_iwik,

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The Palestinians, the indigenous population of the former Palestine, should NOT have to move out of their own country...

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Your statement above contains a number of inaccuracies and misrepresentations.
First, the Palestinian Arabs were not the sole indigenous population in the region. In fact, there was a significant Jewish population in the region for many years before 1948.
Second, there was never a country called Palestine, so to call present day Israel the "former Palestine" a "counrty" is not exactly accurate. The region was dominated by a variety of empires, and it was a province. In the past couple of thousand years, it has not be a independent nation. Romans, Ottoman Turks, and British come to mind just for starters. However, there wasn't an independent Palestine at any point that I am aware of. Go back far enough and there was an indepent Israel, however. Arguing about who was there first is rather pointless.

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They choose not to recognise the Palestinians at all - instead, placing them in Palestinian "areas", much like American Indian reservations, and giving them identity cards. They don't even have a vote...

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Arab Israelis do, in fact, have the right to vote--even the women! In fact, a number have been elected to the Israeli parliament. The Palestinians Arabs you refer to were not Israeli citizens. They were citizens of the Arab counties that Israel fought in battle and defeated and they lived in areas of land that those countries lost in battle. Why should they be given citizenship in Israel of the right to vote in Israeli elections? Shouldn't they have voting rights in Egypt, Jordan, and Syria rather than Israel? Why are they not welcomed in those countries?

"Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner. They have not looked into the future. They have no plan or approach. They have used the Palestinian people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, criminal." --Ariel Sharon.

macrumors 68000

Originally posted by macfan To all who marched on Saturday in support of Saddam: You have reduced the chances that Saddam will be disarmed by some means other than force, instead, you have increased the chances that war will ensue. You have given him aid and comfort in his defiance instead of telling him to comply with the UN and disarm as he agreed to do so many years ago.

Today, whatever your feelings and intentions, you were marching for Saddam.

Click to expand...

actually, no i wasn't marching for saddam. your generalizations and "reasonings" are simplistic.

speaking for only myself( a tactic you should explore...), i was marching for tougher more extensive inspections. i was marching in hopes of avoiding a rush to use the milatary instead of diplomacy. i was marching to better inform my elected officials how i feel.

macrumors G3

Originally posted by 3rdpath actually, no i wasn't marching for saddam. your generalizations and "reasonings" are simplistic.

speaking for only myself( a tactic you should explore...), i was marching for tougher more extensive inspections. i was marching in hopes of avoiding a rush to use the milatary instead of diplomacy. i was marching to better inform my elected officials how i feel.

obviously, you have a problem with that. thats your right.

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while macfan is generally better spoken than a lot of the folks on here who are pro war, i am afraid he is convinced that people who don't want bloodshed until it's the last option are actually people who love saddam. must be comfy with such a simple view on things.

3rdpath summed up the reasons i supported the march pretty well. unfortunately i couldn't get there in person. but i thank the millions of folks who did get out...

macrumors member

I am far from pro war. I only want to see war as a last option. However, it is quite clear that the best chance for avoiding war is to present a powerful, united front against Saddam instead of marching around in support of not taking real action against him.

3rdpath,
Your personal motivations are not relevant for the effect of marching. The effect of the protests is to make war more likely, not less likely. In Saddam's mind, which is where it matters most, you were marching for Saddam. You were showing a world divided in facing a tyrant who has defied the UN for more than a decade. A brutal dictator who has shown not signs of cooperation with the UN inspectors unless a figurative knife was to his throat. As counter intuitive as it seems to you, you were, indeed, marching for Saddam.

macrumors 68000

Originally posted by macfan I am far from pro war. I only want to see war as a last option. However, it is quite clear that the best chance for avoiding war is to present a powerful, united front against Saddam instead of marching around in support of not taking real action against him.

3rdpath,
Your personal motivations are not relevant for the effect of marching. The effect of the protests is to make war more likely, not less likely. In Saddam's mind, which is where it matters most, you were marching for Saddam. You were showing a world divided in facing a tyrant who has defied the UN for more than a decade. A brutal dictator who has shown not signs of cooperation with the UN inspectors unless a figurative knife was to his throat. As counter intuitive as it seems to you, you were, indeed, marching for Saddam.

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i too believe war should be the last option and thats why i marched. to say " no" to an immediate war is not being pro-saddam. it is not saying no to tougher more vigorous inspections. it is not even saying no to war as a last option....but lets exhaust all peaceful efforts first.

and yes, my personal motivations are very relevant. to say otherwise devalues the of worth every person's opinions, yours included.

macrumors 68020

Saddam might see these protests as a rally of support for him and his cause. This would be a bad thing.

The only thing that I can't stand is people blatantly attacking Bush and Blair for no apparent reason. Sure, they are the guys who make some of the top decisions, but criticize their actions, not just the person. If I keep on saying "Bush is a moron", people will see me as a moron. If I say "Bush's actions are moronic because..." and then elaborate, then my message will have some meaning. There are some protesters who have good reasons and a way to back up their protests, but it makes me sick to see people blatantly calling bush stupid and such...

Maybe it's just me...

Oh, and as far as a military buildup trashing our economy- look at what got us out of the great depression...

macrumors 6502

yeah, anyone who has read 1984 knows that war is great for an economy. problem is, our economy goes into debt for wars.

Also, the way bush is approaching it is more like reagan did during the cold war. Reagans build up in the 80's caused the dis-inflation that led to the late 80s early 90s economic slump.

Now we are in deflation which many economists said was coming back in 98 and 99. and its here. Sure, part of it was due to the decrease in military spending, but thats the point. It helps in the short term but everyone who gets a job or opens a factory during a large remilitarization like bush is attempting ends up looking for a job in other sectors once the build up stops.

macrumors 6502

actually, no i wasn't marching for saddam. your generalizations and "reasonings" are simplistic.

speaking for only myself( a tactic you should explore...), i was marching for tougher more extensive inspections. i was marching in hopes of avoiding a rush to use the milatary instead of diplomacy. i was marching to better inform my elected officials how i feel.

obviously, you have a problem with that. thats your right.

Click to expand...

When saddam and company nukes or poison one of you precious european cities, then you are going to turn around a beg for the americans to come help you then Bush and the american people are not mindless idiots, lets see how long your peace holds.

macrumors G3

Originally posted by Wash!!
When saddam and company nukes or poison one of you precious european cities, then you are going to turn around a beg for the americans to come help you then Bush and the american people are not mindless idiots, lets see how long your peace holds.

macrumors 68000

When saddam and company nukes or poison one of you precious european cities, then you are going to turn around a beg for the americans to come help you then Bush and the american people are not mindless idiots, lets see how long your peace holds.

macrumors 6502a

Originally posted by MrMacman And the 'Free Palestine' banners. They aren't being killed. Israel has a right to be there.

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Um... you are aware that over the past two years, five times as many palestinians have died from this conflict than israelis. That's right -- for every one israeli who dies, 5 palestinians die. They are dying!

Israel has a right to be there? About as much right as Italy does to suddenly take back what they had under the Roman empire. I mean, they had that land a few thousand years ago. It's about as solid a claim as Israels.

That's also ignoring the fact that the Israeli leader, Ariel Sharon never flies to any country other than the US for fear of being tried and imprisoned for his crimes against humanity. In sharp contrast, Yassar Araft has won a nobel peace prize.

Also worth noting that the group behind the suicide bombings, HAMAS has received huge funding from the Israeli Government in the past.

macrumors 68000

i too believe war should be the last option and thats why i marched. to say " no" to an immediate war is not being pro-saddam. it is not saying no to tougher more vigorous inspections. it is not even saying no to war as a last option....but lets exhaust all peaceful efforts first.

and yes, my personal motivations are very relevant. to say otherwise devalues the of worth every person's opinions, yours included.

and as far as whats in saddam's mind...HTF do you know?

you've been puffing too long on ovi's hookah of omniscience....

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Consider the facts for a second. Saddam is an absolute dictator of a country developing chemical, biological, and possibly nuclear weapons, in violation of 17 UN resolutions. He is concerned first and foremost with self-preservation, and a distant second is getting his WMD programs done in secrecy. With these in mind, it really isn't that much of a leap to realize that if the world looks united and ready to attack, then Saddam will back down and disarm. Believe it or not, a peaceful solution. If we do look divided, Saddam will think that we are not serious about disarming him. Would you? What he doesn't, and I don't think you, realize is that the US, UK, Spain, eastern Europe, etc. will attack without a united country. Wake up and realize that your protests are counterproductive, that you are being played as pawns by the WWP, that the best way of preventing war is to push Saddam up against the wall until he backs down, something which will not happen if the populace looks divided from the government. You, the protesters, are going to be the cause of this war.

macrumors 68000

Originally posted by kiwi_the_iwik
It was the British that gave Palestine (not "Israel") to the Jewish people back in 1947, in compensation for the horrendous persecution they endured during WWII.

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Lie #1. The British, along with the oh-so-wonderful UN, partitioned the area that is now Israel, the Gaza strip, and the West Bank, into two countries, one for Arabs, one for Jews. The Jews in the region accepted the plan, which, though the percentages were in favor of the Jews, gave the most fertile land (unless you actually can farm in desert) to the Arabs. The Arabs did not. One day after Israel was declared independent from Britain, the surrounding Arab countries attack Israel... more on that later.

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The Palestinians, the indigenous population of the former Palestine, should NOT have to move out of their own country.

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Lie #2. There was no such country or region as Palestine, unless you'd care to go back to Roman times again (I thought everyone was against going back that far), with the Syria Palestina province. The area may have been unofficially called Palestine, but it was just another part of the British Mandate, given to it by the League of Nations. As for the Arabs moving out... more on that later.

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How would you like it if your country was given away - and YOU were evicted; losing your land, your rights and your freedom? I doubt whether you'd like it one bit.

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Lie #3. Or perhaps only 2a. You're right, I wouldn't like it one bit. But that's not what happened. The day of Israel's independence, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (for the uninformed, a major Arab religious leader) called on all Arabs in Israel to leave for the West Bank and Gaza areas, so that in the two week long war to follow, Israel and the Jews could be destroyed without worrying about killing Arabs. In 90+% of cases, Israel BEGGED the Arabs to stay. But who would you listen to? A religious leader, or a government with people your religion tells you to hate? Of course, they followed the Mufti. Two weeks came and went, and the war dragged on. At the end, instead of being destroyed, Israel won. In the meantime, the lands that the Arabs vacated were moved into. From then on, the Arab world has been pushing the lie that every Arab was kicked out, and their lands taken.

Probably true, but the sheep-ple followed their leader to their doom. They didn't fight.

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All these people are asking for is for their rights as individuals. Everywhere else in the democratic world believes in freedom and liberty for all - be they Arabic, Catholic, Buddhist, Jewish, or anyone else for that matter.

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And every Arab, and their descendants, and every Arab who swears a loyalty oath to Israel, does have those freedoms. It's the abandoners who are denied those rights. It's like saying the US should give the right to affect policy to every former Brit who left en masse after the Revolution. It's ridiculous. Similarly though, any Brit who moves to the US and becomes a citizen does get to affect policy.

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Why then, do the Israelis not recognise the PLO as a valid political movement?

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Maybe because the PLO supports terrorism, has no elections, and isn't actually a government? Nah, can't be...

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They choose not to recognise the Palestinians at all - instead, placing them in Palestinian "areas", much like American Indian reservations, and giving them identity cards. They don't even have a vote...

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See above. Giving those in the West Bank and Gaza the right to vote is ridiculous. You will notice, though you failed before now, however, that once Israel actually annexed the Golan Heights, that the Arabs there were given the right to vote, as well as all the other rights afforded an Israeli citizen.

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And now, it seems the Palestinians are being ousted from their territories to make way for more Israeli settlers - and it is usually done by force.

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Lie #3. The Arabs are not being ousted. While I don't agree with the settlers, they are not using force. You'll also note that though it doesn't condemn it (a mistake, IMO), it does not condone the settlements either.

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I've been to Israel on a number of occasions, and have seen how both sides work. Whilst I'm not an advocate of violence, and even suicide bombings (I've filmed the aftermath of blown-up buses, and bombed-out cafes, seeing what was left of victims being placed in plastic bags - it's not nice...), I can see the despiration of the Palestinians.

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