Smokey would still know his true intentions though. He won't get off that easily.

Intentions and actions are two different things though. If Ben manipulates Richard and the others into killing Locke, that was their choice. I can try my damndest to get person A to kill Person B, but ultimately, it's Person A's choice.

True. But if Ben is the major influence behind the decision, is he not still somehoe responsible?

He does hold some of the responsibility, but the bottomline (to me anyway) is that it would who ever actually decided to kill him, and did it.

Fair enough. I guess we'll have to see if he does still want John dead.

Smokey would still know his true intentions though. He won't get off that easily.

Intentions and actions are two different things though. If Ben manipulates Richard and the others into killing Locke, that was their choice. I can try my damndest to get person A to kill Person B, but ultimately, it's Person A's choice.

True. But if Ben is the major influence behind the decision, is he not still somehoe responsible?

He does hold some of the responsibility, but the bottomline (to me anyway) is that it would who ever actually decided to kill him, and did it.

Fair enough. I guess we'll have to see if he does still want John dead.

Well smokey did say that it knew Ben was planning on killing him again. Maybe he lost that thought/desire after Smokey said it would come for him.

Ben the master of manipulation and Richard is not far behind him. He has survived for many years for reasons. If Dick falls prey to Ben's manipulation it will be interesting but somehow I am not sure he will.

Can I just say thank goodness I finally got on the site! Was it down all day yesterday? I could not, for the life of me, get the site to load so I had to find other places to get my Lost fix. Let's just say, it was not my favorite experience. Nobody knows what the heck is going on out there!

so glad to be back here where you all at least have a brain to think with!

I take this exchange to mean that Richard and Ben are together manipulating John into this leadership role for some unknown reason, and are now wondering if he will be more trouble than he is worth. Perhaps this is a conclusion that Ben had already reached.

Any thoughts on what is really going on from Richard and Ben's perspective?

My opinion on the subject is that the whole Jacob bit is being kept secret for a reason. Perhaps for the best. Ben understood it while he lead, and Alpert understands it completely. John doesn't simply want to see Jacob, that didn't seem to bother Alpert. John wanted EVERYONE to meet Jacob. That, to Alpert, was problematic at best.

But Ben is not on Richard's side. He tried to turn John against him real quick. This time John wasn't falling for it.

My thoughts exactly! I rewatched the "test" ep the other day and thought it was interesting. Maybe Locke passed, but Richard had his understanding wrong. Kind of like the Jews not believing Jesus to be The Messiah because he was not the epitome of what a king should be.

Yes, I think Richard was expecting him to choose the compass during the test. But he actually chose the "thing that already belonged to him"... his knife. He recieved the compass from Richard initially.

Right. But now that whole scene has me wondering.... how would Richard know what already belonged to Locke? Okay, the sand represents the island, yeah yeah I get it.... but technically the compass isn't Locke's (unless it's meant to be a more abstract representation of finding his way to the island, and not needing a compass after a few weeks being there, etc.). And I know that point's been discussed and pummeled. But what else would Richard know that John owns? How is Richard the expert here?

Right. But now that whole scene has me wondering.... how would Richard know what already belonged to Locke? Okay, the sand represents the island, yeah yeah I get it.... but technically the compass isn't Locke's (unless it's meant to be a more abstract representation of finding his way to the island, and not needing a compass after a few weeks being there, etc.). And I know that point's been discussed and pummeled. But what else would Richard know that John owns? How is Richard the expert here?

It is sort of a loaded question, unless the answer has nothing to do with the compass or the knife.

I have a theory that I posted in my thread, but I figured here would be more appropriate, I think Richard is going to attempt to kill Locke with Ben at his side, but at the last minute, Ben will double cross Richard and kill him to save Locke.

Right. But now that whole scene has me wondering.... how would Richard know what already belonged to Locke? Okay, the sand represents the island, yeah yeah I get it.... but technically the compass isn't Locke's (unless it's meant to be a more abstract representation of finding his way to the island, and not needing a compass after a few weeks being there, etc.). And I know that point's been discussed and pummeled. But what else would Richard know that John owns? How is Richard the expert here?

Richard got the compass from Locke in 1954 and when he tests Locke he thinks the compass is Locke's.Locke has to choose the compass. Richard doesn't know that he gave that compass to Locke in the future.