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I'm a guitarist who wants to take up piano due to fibromyalgia making it hard for me to fret a guitar with my left hand. My rheumatologist has told me that exercise is good for my condition. I've always preferred the darker overall tone of Korg keyboards to the brighter tone of Yamaha, going all the way back to M1/T/O1W's vs DX7/SY77's, up through today's Kronos vs Motif. I do prefer the sound of the Korg LP350 to the Yamaha P95/P155 for that reason, but have been reading about the problems they've had with the RH3 keybed.

The two problems I can remember are 1)Softer volumes not registering in general and 2)Actual dead keys. Can anyone tell me if there are other problems I'm not aware of. I'm considering ordering one from Musician's Friend and adding on their 3yr extended warranty just to be on the safe side.

If the Korg is too risky, I may be willing to spend more on a Yamaha P155, which I do think has a good sound. Piano seems to be one instrument that sounds good with either a bright or dark tone, and reliability is a priority. The thing is, the LP350 comes with a console type stand with all three piano pedals, and while one can purchase a console stand for the P155, it doesn't offer a three-pedal attachment. The P95 does, but I much prefer the sound of the P155. I noticed that Yamaha offers the Arius YDP141 console style with all three pedals, but this features their Graded Hammer Standard keyboard, which a lot of people on here feel is too light a touch. However, given that I have constant pain in the back of both hands, I think this might be an advantage for me, the same as the adjustable resistance in the LP350 would be.

If anyone can let me know about any problems I've missed concerning the RH3 keybed I'd appreciate it. Also, I'd like to hear some thoughts on using a lighter resistance due to my fibromyalgia. I know their are people on here with arthritis, and I'd like to hear what has helped them.

Thank you in advance for any help,Kevin

Edit: I just listened to Kraft Music's youtube demos of the Yamaha YDP141 and Korg LP350 side-by-side. Forget what I said about the YDP141, I don't think it's in the same league as the P155 or LP350 concerning sound.

If the Korg is too risky, I may be willing to spend more on a Yamaha P155, which I do think has a good sound. Piano seems to be one instrument that sounds good with either a bright or dark tone, and reliability is a priority. The thing is, the LP350 comes with a console type stand with all three piano pedals, and while one can purchase a console stand for the P155, it doesn't offer a three-pedal attachment. The P95 does, but I much prefer the sound of the P155. I noticed that Yamaha offers the Arius YDP141 console style with all three pedals, but this features their Graded Hammer Standard keyboard, which a lot of people on here feel is too light a touch. However, given that I have constant pain in the back of both hands, I think this might be an advantage for me, the same as the adjustable resistance in the LP350 would be.

The console model that most closely approximates the P155 is the YDP 161. The 141 is a lower-end model. Based on what you have written above, the 161 may be the piano for you.

Based on what I'm reading about your situation I think it might not make sense to insist on 3 pedals, by the way. I've been playing for many years and I never use anything but the sustain pedal. My keyboard has two pedals but the soft/sostenuto pedal is still completely shiny with the original finish from lack of use. Other people may have a different feeling on the matter, but presuming you are a beginner/intermediate, I think you will find the other two pedals relatively unimportant. In other words, if it's a question of whether to get the action you want or three pedals, I'd definitely suggest going with the action you want.

Having said that, you should probably go give a GH and GHS piano a try and make up your mind about which action you prefer. If you like the GHS, then you can save money by getting the P105. It has sounds that are far, far better than the P95 (perhaps on par with the P155) and the GHS action and it's relatively affordable. Of course, you will have to give up on the idea of having three pedals.

I think one of the problems you listed with the RH3 keyed was a defect with that unit, and so can be struck off your list.

The other problem, difficulty with soft playing, was not agreed upon by everyone who reported, so may be a question of technique; even so it may be relevant for a beginner and you would have to try it yourself.

Thanks for the reply. I'm disabled, use a walker and don't drive, so I rarely travel. Therefore, I utilize youtube and Musician's Friend for most of my music purchases. I may have to venture out to a store to check out the two actions, however, as it's such an important part of a piano, plus I need to make certain I don't cause too much strain on my hands.

Speaking of youtube, I checked out Kraft's demo of the YDP161 and P105. They both sound very nice. The P105 is especially impressive given the price and the fact that the stand is included. And one can add in the three pedals on that model for $75, bringing the total to $725.

Thanks for the reply, it gives me a couple options I hadn't thought about, either of which might fit my needs.

I think one of the problems you listed with the RH3 keyed was a defect with that unit, and so can be struck off your list.

The other problem, difficulty with soft playing, was not agreed upon by everyone who reported, so may be a question of technique; even so it may be relevant for a beginner and you would have to try it yourself.

Thanks for the reply. It hadn't shown up yet when I made my last post or I would have replied to it then.

It sounds like the Korg would be worth trying out for me based on what you are saying. I've gone back and compared the Yamaha P105, P155 and YDP161 to the Korg LP350. I like the sound of all three of those Yamahas, and I can see them cutting through the mix well, which is one reason I think we see so many players using Yamaha stage pianos and Motifs. However, I definitely prefer the sound of the Korg. I just like a dark tone (Bill Evans is my favorite player). The fact that it has three selectable resistance levels is appealing to me, too, due to my fibromyalgia.

From what I've read not everyone has been unhappy with the Korg's keybed, so I'm going to give it a shot. I will purchase the extended warranty as well, so there really shouldn't be much risk involved.

I had a LP350 before and the build quality is very poor especially for the material that they've chosen for the housing. The keys are heavier than most of the DP in its price range.... I think you can consider Casio as well.... the new series is better than before and the sound is not bad too.... The key weight for Yamaha seems to be pretty light for entry level DPs...

I have a Kronos, and I'm not happy at all. Dead notes, cutoffs. I've heard many users experienced problems with Rh3. To be honest, can't wait to get rid of it and I have been telling my friends to avoid any Rh3 keybed.

For me the P155 is way better than any Korg - both tone and touch. About GHS, I agree it's too light.

RH3 is complete rubbish .... Although my newer Kronos X has no issues it's still a awful action. If you want a darker piano then a Yamaha and want 3 pedals spend the extra $ and get a Roland SN or a Kawai ES7 .....

_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva) Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.

... If you want a darker piano then a Yamaha and want 3 pedals spend the extra $ and get a Roland SN or a Kawai ES7 .....

If you want a dark sound don´t ever buy Kawai ES7. Its sound is bright as can be!! It has a pair of mellow pianos but their quality is IMHO far from Concert Grand 1. Keybed is very good but it's heavier than others. I agree with James, I'd go for a soft controler and some VST to suit my likes.

RH3 is complete rubbish .... Although my newer Kronos X has no issues it's still a awful action. If you want a darker piano then a Yamaha and want 3 pedals spend the extra $ and get a Roland SN or a Kawai ES7 .....

Can someone comment on the Roland F-120, please? I've listened to some demos on youtube, and it's sound is closer to what I like than the Yamahas. To be honest, I prefer the sound of the LP-350, but the RH3 complaints are a concern.

I'm not so concerned about it having what seasoned pianists consider a poor action, as I'm a beginner and due to my fibromyalgia doubt I'll ever reach a high level of proficiency. Also, I've noticed that when people are looking for a DP in the $500 - $700 range the SP-250 is frequently recommended, and the LP-350 is essentially the same board in a housing I prefer.

I'm more concerned about dead notes and actual problems than the general view that the RH3 is not the best action available. Therefore, I'd like to know if it would be worth jumping from $1,000 for the LP-350 to $1,300 for the F-120.

I have a Korg SP-250. It's been quite adequate for my purposes as a beginner classical pianist. I use it mostly with software pianos, so I can't say much about the internal sounds versus other digital pianos. Although I have very limited experience playing acoustic pianos, I have been thinking of upgrading for two reasons, both involving playing softly:

1) The softest keypress that will return a MIDI velocity greater than 1 is much harder than the softest keypress that will make a sound on a good acoustic piano action. This means that I cannot develop the touch necessary to play very soft tones on an acoustic piano. Also, the velocity response seems to jump from 1 to 10: MIDI velocity values 2-9 are basically nonexistent. This translates to a reduced sensitivity, even on software pianos where you can adjust the velocity curve. The result is that when I sit down at an acoustic piano, my softest notes are somewhere around mezzo-piano.

2) The key travel is not entirely uniform. It takes more pressure to move the key at the beginning of a key press than at the end. This means that it is very difficult to play extremely soft tones, since you have to start your strike with more pressure, and then reduce the pressure as you approach the bottom of the key travel. In my (very limited) experience, a good acoustic piano action feels uniform throughout the key travel so that you can better control the speed at which the hammer hits the string.

As I said, I don't have much experience playing acoustic pianos, so I have decided not to upgrade until I know more about how an acoustic piano action feels. For now, I can deal with the annoyances of the SP-250's RH3 action, but I don't feel that I can pick a better keyboard action.

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post. While looking through other posts I found a link someone attached to a review comparing the Yamaha P155 and Kawai EP3. I hadn't paid any attention to the Kawai's at all, but I'm definitely going with the Kawai.

The biggest deal sealers for me are not only do I love its grand piano sound, but also many of the other sounds on it, plus the USB to host option and six speakers. The other non-grand piano sounds are better than those on any of the other DP's I've been researching in the $700 - $1,300 price range. The Yamahas have a good DX7 electric piano, of course, and a few different models have a decent Wurlitzer, but I haven't found any really good Rhodes or B3's. The Rhodes on the EP3 is really good, and the B3/Leslie combination is passable, at least more than on anything else I've heard in my price range.

So thanks again for the help, everyone, and I can't wait for UPS to deliver my new Kawai.

I had a feeling you might like that. The only reason I can see so much more attention being paid to Yamaha, Roland and Casio is due to their larger distribution. I like all those companies too, and had been listening to their sound and video demos for that last few months. I've been aware of the Kawai name for 30 years, but hadn't been aware of their specific products, and really thought of them as a grand piano company.

It was just a matter of coincidence that I found the review comparing the EP3 and the P155. I like the P155 too, but it's organ and electric pianos don't really do anything for me. That's not a big deal, since I'm mainly interested in the grand piano, but I not only like the grand piano in the EP3 better than the P155, but if I also get a good Rhodes, harpsichord, pipe organ and passable B3, which I think might sound good with some tweaking, then that's just an added bonus I'm happy to take advantage of.

Just curious- I have always loved Korgs piano sounds; actually thinking of getting a Krome for composing and to midi to my PX pianos-

I am aware RH3 is not getting good reviews and feedback.

What about a Korg Krome 88- I tried the NH- it did not feel as bad as the SP series.

True, it was lighter but did not have the spongy feel in my opinoin

I like the sound of Korg keyboards overall, including both their pianos and workstations. The thing that concerned me after reading reviews both on this forum and the Korg forum is the build quality, which apparently isn't as good as it was 20 years ago when I used their products (M1, O1W/FD). On the Korg Forum I have seen complaints from Krome owners about circuit board problems and the like.

Someone who owns one on here can probably give you better advice than I can, but based on what I've read about their quality control issues I'm leery about purchasing a Krome myself, which is a shame because I love Korg's lush, rich, dark tone by a long distance over any other manufacturer's tone.

What I plan on doing is getting the Kawai EP3, whose native sounds I like, to learn on, and also purchasing Korg's Legacy plug-in package, with the M1, PolySix, Wavestation, and a couple more of their classic boards, which will give me all the ambient sounds I associate with Korg. I don't know if that would help you or not, but at least it's a way of not having to worry about hardware issues.

Korg Kronos with the RH3 was the worst kebyed I have ever owned. To make matters worse Korg handled the RH3 issues on the Kronos horribly and straight up lied to me about replacing my keybed... This went on for almost 18 months.

I would never recommend the RH3. IMO careful inspection of most of Korg's products makes it clear that they are using lower grade materials and have issues with manufacturing consistency.

I hadn't paid any attention to the Kawai's at all, but I'm definitely going with the Kawai.

... not only do I love its grand piano sound, but also many of the other sounds on it, plus the USB to host option and six speakers. The other non-grand piano sounds are better than those on any of the other DP's I've been researching in the $700 - $1,300 price range.

The Rhodes on the EP3 is really good, and the B3/Leslie combination is passable, at least more than on anything else I've heard in my price range.

So thanks again for the help, everyone, and I can't wait for UPS to deliver my new Kawai.

@NoviceJazzer,

You have definitely made a good choice with the Kawai EP3 as I have one as well, and, here are several examples of the grand piano sounds:

I hadn't paid any attention to the Kawai's at all, but I'm definitely going with the Kawai.

... not only do I love its grand piano sound, but also many of the other sounds on it, plus the USB to host option and six speakers. The other non-grand piano sounds are better than those on any of the other DP's I've been researching in the $700 - $1,300 price range.

The Rhodes on the EP3 is really good, and the B3/Leslie combination is passable, at least more than on anything else I've heard in my price range.

So thanks again for the help, everyone, and I can't wait for UPS to deliver my new Kawai.

@NoviceJazzer,

You have definitely made a good choice with the Kawai EP3 as I have one as well, and, here are several examples of the grand piano sounds:

The six built-in speakers are quite excellent in projecting the piano sounds and have nice clarity with no fuzziness or distortion, along with very realistic reverb effects.

Also, the EP3 should be easy on your hands as I have found that the action does not bottom out hard like the Roland's, as the action is very smooth and not too heavy.

Thank you for the post, those clips further confirm what I had discovered about the EP3. The pianos really are full and rich. The fact that the Rhodes, clavinet, harpsichord, DX7 EP, vibraphone are so good, and the B3 is at least passable, just makes it that much more attractive to me. It's the only DP in its price range that I've found with consistently good non-grand sounds.

Thanks for letting me know about the action being easy on the hands, as that was my only concern about the EP3. I have read that Kawai has one of the firmer actions, and had been considering going with one of the Yamahas with a lighter action. But I like the sound in the EP3 too much to not go for it. Not that there is anything wrong with Yamaha, I've always been a fan of their instruments, but the Kawai has more of the qualities I want in a piano, that's all.

Yes, the Kawai EP3 has very good piano sounds and what I think I like best are the top-facing speakers which really projects the resonance for the player making it quite realistic with nice clarity. Reverb effects are excellent.

Kawai James, I hope you don't mind my bringing this topic back up, but since making my decision to purchase an EP3 or its successor if there is one at NAMM, I have been checking out a few more expensive pianos and realize they're worth the price.

For one, the Kawai ES7 and CE220. They both are using the new method of sampling each string on a grand. However, in the sound clips I've listened to the ES7 has a noticeably clearer sound to it. Am I missing something there? I would prefer to get the CE220 due to price, as the ES7 plus stand plus 3-pedal unit is over $2500.

Also, I've checked out the Roland FP-7F, as someone in an earlier post suggested this would be darker than a Kawai. I have to agree that it's a little darker, but I also agree that it sounds muddy in a lot of clips I've listened to, but in some clips it sounds much clearer. I've seen some comments that the FP-7F sounds much clearer through headphones. Could you, or anyone else, comment on that, please?

I like the clarity of the ES7, but the lighter touch of the Roland is appealing to me, due to my fibromyalgia. The backs of my hands and my finger joints are in constant pain. This is why I had to give up the guitar. Is the ES7's action adjustable, or would I be better off going with the Roland. I appreciate anyone's help on that one, because a piano's sound won't really matter if I can't play it.

I like the clarity of the ES7, but the lighter touch of the Roland is appealing to me, due to my fibromyalgia. The backs of my hands and my finger joints are in constant pain. This is why I had to give up the guitar. Is the ES7's action adjustable, or would I be better off going with the Roland. I appreciate anyone's help on that one, because a piano's sound won't really matter if I can't play it.

Thanks,Kevin

Kevin,

From what you mentioned I might avoid getting any Roland due to the fact that they have a very hard bottoming out (or, key thunk), which I believe could be further damaging to one's hands, especially if you like to play loud music.

The Kawai's have a much softer key bed making for a better playing experience.

I personally prefer my two Kawai's (for this reason) over the V-Piano.

I like the clarity of the ES7, but the lighter touch of the Roland is appealing to me, due to my fibromyalgia. The backs of my hands and my finger joints are in constant pain. This is why I had to give up the guitar. Is the ES7's action adjustable, or would I be better off going with the Roland. I appreciate anyone's help on that one, because a piano's sound won't really matter if I can't play it.

Thanks,Kevin

Hi,Kevin. The ES7, as other pianos, has adjustable touch, but you must consider that this feature is more psychological than physical, I mean, you could set touch to light or light+ and by means of it you'd feel it's way easier to reach the highest dynamic changes with less effort, or strengh. Then, playing effortless it would sound with a very rich tone (it would be harder to control tone evenness, though).But the actual key weight is still the same, obviously. If you don't need to switch from one piano to another, such a light action could suit you. In regards to the dark sound you prefer, I find ES7 more "in the sunny side of the street", but you could always rise bass and lower highs, and select mellow voicing on the grand sound, or a mellow piano and see if you like it. But nothing that we say can improve a live test.

I am finding a defect in the Arius 141 pedal unit. The cylindrical receiver underneath for the connector in, is RETRACTED preventing a SUSTAIN. I am very frustrated trying to get the the Yamaha Corporation to fix it at its expense. It has been a burgeoning problem and I have endorsed the piano wholeheartedly on You Tubes, until this disaster reared its ugly head. I wish the company would make the effort to satisfy a customer who promoted sales of the 141 and then 161.