Friday, January 16, 2015

It is time to close Saxo Bank down

Saxo Bank is a retail foreign exchange trading bank. The idea of forex trading as a retail product is mildly offensive any way. [I simply can't see how you can make money doing this in any consistent manner.]

However the (a) lack of systems and (b) depth of the scam is revealed by Saxo's statement after the giant Swiss Franc move today. To quote:

“Due to today’s exceptional market movement in CHF crosses, we have been filling client orders and positions in an extremely illiquid market. Once we are better able to establish true market liquidity, all executed fills will be revisited, and will be revised and amended to more accurate levels. This may result in a worse execution rate than the originally filled level.”

It is of course garbage of the highest order that in the biggest currency movement of recent times there pertained an "extremely illiquid market". If Saxo quoted the wrong price the problem is Saxo's systems.

Instead Saxo is just stealing from its clients. It did a deal and they traded at a rate - and they are rewriting that deal to suit them.

Theft is the right word.

Any regulator that lets Saxo Bank do this is failing it core functions.

All client funds are in segregated accounts and “100 per cent of positive client equity or balance is safe and withdrawable immediately,” he said. However, GBL had sustained “a total loss of operating capital.”

You're of course totally right, but technically this is an OTC product whose terms usually allow the issuer to basically pick their price, especially under "extraordinary" circumstances, which are typically very broadly worded (and today is indeed a bit unusual). So to act a regulator needs to void a private contract between the punter and the bank.

If most victims are outside Danemark (it would not surprise me much if Saxo treated domestic customers preferentially) it's not that much of a Danish regulator's problem. (Inflows for the Danish economy!)

I totally 100% agree, this so called investment bank is total BS. They offer virtual trades like other scammers especially CFD scammers. Saxos forex platform is virtual platform and is not connected to real forex, that is the reason why they want now change filled prices.

Erm tbh this happens when you have fat finger trades and big moves in any mkt, algo liquidity or otherwise.

This is from a Swiss IB to its institutional clients:

Following the SNB announcement with regards to their 1.2000 floor in EUR/CHF,there have been significant issues within the market with regards to the levelat which orders have been actually transacted. A number of orders executed inthe immediate aftermath of the announcement are on off-market rates. Pleasenote that auto-generated system confirmations may be incorrect and must not berelied upon. This status applies not only to EUR/CHF but to all CHF crosses.

Big plug to Interactive here - I know you use them for your business...I have to say yesterday they didn't fall over, they didn't 'rebook' any trades and where most institutional suppliers stopped quoting entirely these boys kept it together.

I had a margin call yesterday with saxo. execution at eurchf 1.1840 (in line with time & sales at that moment). after the revision they did yesterday evening they closed all the positions at 0.9625 eurchf. simply ridiculus.

Check the log activity on your saxo account. there is you'll find the exact execution price and time. check time and sales in that moment (most probably execution and price will match). The 0,9625 execution price they want to apply to ALL clients doesn't take into account the execution time, the volume, anything. it's just a number that helps them cover their losses so that clients will pay for it. Unfortunately for them that number doesn't make sense at all as each execution is different. If you're a client of them like i am make a picture of the log activity, time and sales in that moment. It'll be impossible for them to deny your execution price as it's on your statement

So the price drops with no bids at all, nothing to sell into once the stop level triggered. Broker has orders in their systems that feed through to position sheets. Trader needs to know position he is open to so how much to sell. Trader fills all orders down to lowest know trade, his position now correct but often trade confos generated at the order rate automatically. These have to be revisited. Now known, the position and so can be flattened getting out of position as best as possible. Average of position exit applied to all rates given to client. Problem is world is used to there always being a 2 way price and when there isn't screen prices are nonsense.

Perhaps this is a reminder for those playing in market to learn about how they work and the reality behind that tight, always there screen price. And most importantly, as with all more complex City deals..

READ THE SMALLPRINT

Of your contract with your broker and one of the first things to check is ownership of slippage on stops.

If your broker haven't effectively given you a free option in guaranteeing then the variance on the cost between trigger and execution is all the clients.stops are filled at "best endeavour".

And before anyone calls the regulator, be careful of what you wish for. The end user is the usual loser.. knowing the regulator they would probably ban stop losses to protect the investor ..duurh?

I am also finding it difficult to agree that they can simply decide and just go and re-quote. My loss multiplied by 5 (my account is ok, because I used no leverage in my longs EURCHF, but with a big loss). What is very annoying is that at the time when my stop orders were executed, about 10 pips or so below my actual level (I am happy with that), there is no trace of the rates they have re-quoted. In fact the re-quoted rates are all 4 minutes later. All that info I collected by looking at the 1 minute chart. So lets see if we get enough ppl here to create a group.

I am seriously shocked and disturbed about the way SAXO has handled this situation. Understand that there were no market prices and hence accounts stop out were triggered and in some cases wiped out.

They are refusing to accept my executed SELL orders on EURCHF and have given it their own price the next day. They keep saying they have the right to change the prices and notify the client within a reasonable amount of time. But in a rapidly moving market, if 14 hours is a reasonable amount of time, then that is a subject of debate.

Their system showed me a filled order that hedged my position. As a result, it took longer for my account to be stopped out using the available collateral in the account. The next day they take away that executed fill and assign it their price and send me messages that I owe them a massive amount of money apart from my complete collateral being wiped out.

It seems that if they show me an executed order with a price, then even if they say they have the right to change it, because their system used their FAKE order fill as hedging my long EURCHF, my account took a while to depleted from my other CHF positions and as a result my losses were magnified even further. How could that be the client's fault? Looking for other people to see if we can group and try and do something.

Pls get in touch if there is a thought of setting up some group.capaxity@gmail.com

John, I don't see what the fuss is about with all this "regulatory love". I mean, wasn't it you yourself not very happy with Ackman's "hey, SEC or someone, close this company, I shorted it!" way.Okay, you have no position, still.

There is a contract between Saxo and its clients, in writing, signed in good conscience by both parties.Okay we both assume that contract is a good deal scammy BS as in, "you give us your money, then we make it look like you are trading, but if anything happens, well screw you." BUT, that contract was read and accepted by people who choose to "actively manage their money", so we assume, not your ordinary mom-n-pop.

Now if those contracts carry any or some of the material violations - of regulations, of full and fair information etc - well they could be argued/sued/regulated/whatever. But to ask to retroactively change them just because they end up one-sided... that's probably bit too "commie" for my taste.(Then again, there are legal clauses for unconscionable dealing/conduct. As far as I know, these are problematic to apply to situations where people willingly choose a particular option - invest on forex with saxo - among many different available ones.)

All this said, I would love to see them sued. Wonder how that would go.

I was (unfortunately) long in EURCHF with one million, without stop loss thinking that was happened never will happen. Well, it happened at it is my fault and I agree with it.

But after to lose in less than one minute all my SAXO BANK account which have 145.000 USD. They put my more losses with 350.000 USD extra and I explain how they did it.

I had my long EUR CHF, after to go down I did not have stop loss, then when my margin was finish they opened a SHORT position to close my position EUR CHF and stop my loss. Then the position was showing ''SQ'' I loss all my account only I had the money that was covering other trades (around 23.000 USD).

Then after to see the big disaster that happened with y account, I though never worst can happen, I already lost around 125.000 USD and it is ok, was my fault, at least I have account to continue trading.

After some hours I received the e-mail from SaxoBank saying that the short position that they opened automatic to cut my losses was opened in one price and now the price is less, then instead to cover my long position I had around 350.000 USD loss after to change the open price of the short position, and after to loss 125.000 USD.

Now my Saxobank account is with -350.000 USD and they told me that I have to pay it, because the price was requoted and I have to pay it because the opened one short position automatic, without my permision, in my account, and they did not close the LONG EUR CHF to cut my losses, they opened short position to close it at the end of the day...

Anyone can understand this and explain me if this is legal?

Of course Im going to find the best lawyer that I can in Europe and Im going to claim this case in my country to Saxo Bank and in Denmark, and I will do whatever I have to do to go to the European law / court.

We can not seat and give the right to Saxo Bank to do this to us, we can not pay for their fault. They are market makers, they opened positions in their system, not in the real market, they can not prove that they opened with different prices in the real market, only the information is in their systems.

Please if someone one to join me send e-mail to sbcheatedusers@gmail.com

Im going to find lawyer and check what is the best way to arrive to the end with this cheating:

Please write to me to saxobankcheatedusersgroup@gmail.com

I will make also a web site, I will write in all the forum I can find in this world, and I will do the worst advertising that I can in all the forums, blogs, trading webs etc etc, I will not stop all my life. Maybe I can not recover my money, but If I only can to warm 5 person every month to dont open Saxo Bank account it will be enough for me.

The latest update from Saxo:http://www.saxoworld.com/news/press-releases/saxo-bank-fulfils-its-regulatory-capital-requirementsWondering how they are going to handel those accounts with negative balance based after this media release.

I am also one unfortunate investor in SAXO - EURCHF. I had stops at about 4% of my account value, I got stopped out at around 6% (which is fair given the dramatic circumstances) but 8 hours later SAXO 'revised' my account to a 200% loss bringing me into extreme dept. I am currently in 'negotiations' with Saxo regarding this and would be happy to hear from other people in the same situation.

i checked with their RM but they said they dont have an official explanation yet from the "senior management" on how they calculated the strikes yet... I was shocked - is this from a random number generater or what?

and i dont understand if my trade is reported to be stopped out in the first min (i have put stops), why they are applying an "average strike" of the first 10 mins to me

By curiosity i found this topic. Quite interesting that they still are proceeding this way, and nobody did nothing so far.

I had a similar situation a while ago, fortunately the account had small money and low leverage, which in the end resulted in a small pay i had to give to SB, not to think anymore abt the issue.

However i got shocked how they can make post trade changes and that IS LEGAL?! :O

I suggest you guys to inquire them about the legal statement from their "market supplier" the respective position was open in the market. Furthermore for them to prove with the normative and regulations which allows them to "requote" post trade. This shall keep them for awhile at least, given both of the two previous items surely don´t exist.

After the mentioned event never traded with them again. Ah...and by the way, if you trade with Saxo you surely have lots of stop and limit orders hunting!!

Once the Trade is done and comfirmed by a broker in a statement/blotter it is DONE! The brokers are acting as a market makers in relation to the client and if they confirm some trade for some price to the client they cant change it few hours later with different price! No way they can do that. If there was exceptional event they should switched their platforms off in the first place and not execute anything. Once executed the deal is done.

It depends on what they exactly did to you. If they executed your order for some price, send you confirmation of the deal and then after few hours want to change the price of the executed order, there is very good chance you can succeed with the lawsuit. But as I said, it really depends on what they exactly did to you.

The most pathetic thing about all of this is the Saxo CFO calling for tighter regulations (http://www.business.dk/finans/saxo-chef-vil-have-indgreb-mod-valutaspekulation) while his libertarian paymasters hand out copies of Atlas Shrugged to employees and sponsors a libertarian party that actively works for a night-watchmen state. If you want a candid look at the rot in Saxo, look no further than the glassdoor and trustpilot.dk reviews - truer words were never spoken.

To contact the reporter on this story:Frances Schwartzkopff in Copenhagen at +45-33-457-125 or fschwartzko1@bloomberg.net To contact the editors responsible for this story:Tasneem Hanfi Brogger at +45-33-457-130 or tbrogger@bloomberg.net; Angela Cullen at +49-69-92041-158 or acullen8@bloomberg.net

By Frances Schwartzkopff(Bloomberg) -- Saxo Bank A/S has been ordered by the Danish financial regulator to provide a detailed report of its handling of franc trades on Jan. 15 after some of its clients complained to the watchdog.The Copenhagen-based broker has confirmed it retroactively repriced trades conducted in the half hour after the Swiss National Bank abandoned its euro peg, but only told clients it was doing so 12 hours later. Saxo says it risks losing as much as $107 million, a figure that won’t leave it in breach of capital requirements.The Danish Financial Supervisory Authority “is currently in close dialogue with Saxo Bank and will require the bank to provide a detailed report of the actions taken during and after the incident,” the regulator said in an e-mailed statement received today.Saxo has defended its actions arguing the lack of “reliable liquidity” after the franc went into free float gave it no choice but to reprice its trades. The bank filled what it described as an “abnormal” volume of about 818 million francs($910 million) in just 30 minutes. That compares with Saxo’s total assets of $4.2 billion in 2013, the latest year for which figures are available.Saxo is now bracing itself for lawsuits, Chief Financial Officer Steen Blaafalk said.The bank “is still liaising with each client on an individual basis to clarify what is possible with respect to each client’s situation and agreeing an individual plan of an action for the repayment,” he said this week.Censeo Asset Management, based in Vienna, said this week it “can’t recognize the lawfulness of” Saxo’s decision to reprice its franc trades and will help its clients challenge the decision if a review shows the action is “questionable under Austrian law.” The company had offered clients a Saxo-brokered franc product.

To contact the reporter on this story:Frances Schwartzkopff in Copenhagen at +45-33-457-125 or fschwartzko1@bloomberg.net To contact the editors responsible for this story:Veronica Ek at +46-8-610-0722 orvek@bloomberg.netTasneem Hanfi Brogger, Christian Wienberg

Hello,Same thing happened to me. My broker uses the Saxo Bank platform and system for trading, my EURCHF position was closed at 1,14. Latter it was adjusted to, guess what, 0,9625 like all of you. Suspicious....

Like some of you, I ended with huge losses, my account is negative.

I don't know how to proceed. I would feel stupid if I paid back my debt to this idiots, at the same time I'm afraid that not paying can lead to many problems in the future. I will stay attentive to this group.

the funny thing is Saxo in sept 2014 forecasted peg withdrawal on eurchf as 1 sigma event. but in real world acts as 120-250 sigma event. should they hiked margin considering this as 1 sigma, this would never happen. i ve read article abt it herehttp://www.forexlifestyle.sk/eurchf-co-odhalila-svajciarska-kriza/it is in slovak, but google translates.

If you've been robbed by saxo with the chf trade it's a good thing to call the regulator or send an email. The more people call, the more important it gets.Danish regulator contacts here: https://www.finanstilsynet.dk/en/Kontakt.aspx

It is indeed appalling that it is a pro business jurisdiction such as Denmark that raise concerns about saxo' business practices and nor a socialist jurisdiction such as China ... Has competitive devaluation distracted China fromi hs goal of being a superpowe? A train can be derailed if it is not careful with what the world respects.

Afterall , it has been accused of currency manipulation by the Americans, was it not the case? Now it is the time to show who is an acceptable dealer of the Chinese yuan ?..

(Bloomberg) -- In a letter to the Danish regulator, SaxoBank A/S said it was trying to avoid being sued when itcontinued accepting Swiss franc orders after the market froze onJan. 15. In the letter, dated Feb. 9 and obtained by Bloomberg Newsthrough a freedom-of-information request, Saxo says it wasconcerned that blocking franc orders in the moments after theSwiss National Bank abandoned its euro cap would leave it opento litigation by clients eager to adjust their positions. “Some customers could potentially have sought to make SaxoBank liable for such a decision that, under the conditions,could have led to significant losses,” Saxo said, according tothe letter it sent to the Danish Financial SupervisoryAuthority. Saxo spokesman Kasper Elbjoern declined to comment onthe bank’s correspondence with the regulator. Saxo continued accepting orders, but then told clients ine-mails seen by Bloomberg it would execute their trades at lessfavorable prices than those initially shown. The bank publisheda list of those prices some 12 hours later. Chief FinancialOfficer Steen Blaafalk said in an interview later the same monththat Saxo was expecting some clients to sue because of itsdecision to reprice. Saxo sent the letter to the FSA after the regulator orderedthe bank to provide a detailed report of its handling of franctrades on Jan. 15 amid client complaints that the broker treatedthem unfairly.

Saxo has defended its actions saying the lack of “reliableliquidity” after the franc went into a free float gave it nochoice but to reprice its trades. The bank also says that, evenif it had decided to stop accepting franc trade orders, clientswould have had access to the market through other channels. “Currency isn’t traded on a central exchange, so even ifSaxo had decided to suspend trade, there would have been amarket via other market participants which Saxo Bank doesn’thave an influence on,” it said in the letter. Part of the problem for Saxo on Jan. 15 was that thefinancial institutions it relies on for liquidity stoppedproviding executable prices, according to its letter to the FSA.Those financial institutions also rejected trade requests andceased to quote prices, Saxo said in the letter. The franc appreciated on Jan. 15 to its strongest since theintroduction of the euro in 1999, closing at about 0.98,compared with the 1.20 cap the SNB had imposed until that day.

Margin Calls

Saxo said it first focused on closing the mounting numberof accounts that were breaching margin requirements as the francsoared in value. Then, the bank tried to notify clients throughpop-up alerts and e-mails that it was closing positions andwould reprice trades, according to the letter to the FSA. “Due to the dramatic increase in the Swiss franc, therewas no time to wait for clients to close positions themselves,”according to a Feb. 1 letter to the FSA by Kromann Reumert, aDanish law firm hired by Saxo to review its actions. Thecorrespondence was provided by the Danish FSA as part of thesame freedom-of-information request through which the Saxoletter was obtained. The bank’s decision to reprice trades resulted in “worseprices” for the “vast majority” of clients, but the bank waswithin its legal rights to do what it did, the law firmconcluded.

Client Letters

Saxo has said it stands to lose about $107 million, orroughly a third of its equity capital, because of the exchange-rate move. In letters to clients, copies of which were sent to the FSAand obtained by Bloomberg, Saxo instructs customers to settlenegative cash balances, citing a contract provision that laysout what items “the client shall pay to Saxo on demand.” “Initial fills visible on your account did not reflect theactual market liquidity available at the time, and they were notexecuted in the market,” according to one letter sent by Saxoand obtained by Bloomberg. Lawyers representing about 30 retail customers with acombined 100 million kroner ($15 million) in claims arecontesting Saxo’s actions and asking the bank to reverse itsdecision to reprice, saying the dispute will end in court ifSaxo doesn’t reimburse its clients. “We think they’re not allowed to do what they’ve done --that their agreement with customers doesn’t give them the rightto do it,” Jakob Ravnsbo, an attorney at Andersen Partners,which is representing the clients, said in an interview. “So wedispute this way of treating customers and of course ask them tochange that.” Saxo says it has worked hard to ensure customers aretreated fairly. Since Jan. 15, the bank has been “liaising witheach client on an individual basis to clarify what is possiblewith respect to each client’s situation and agreeing to anindividual plan of action for the repayment,” Blaafalk saidJan. 27.

If currency was traded on central exchange , would saxo be allowed to gain legal rights believed to be theirs ? Even if clients wanted market access elsewhere , would saxo release funds fast enough for them to do so. Would another participant be also quick enough to complete the formalities required?

CB surprise is not all uncommon. How can you ahem open a casino and then shift people's bet to red after the wheel stopped at black simply because nobody wants red - what's more there are people who told you that if it lands on black , I only want to lose this amount and not sink into emotional distress.

Was the infliction intended ? That is for a court of law to decide. Agree that China should action before offsprings such as trading bucket.com hit their shores and send millions into riots.

In fact, every jurisdiction should detail what is acceptable so as to be A broker of their currency .

Do you really want one whose business plan is to avoid insurance costs thru clever lawyers ?

Glad to have read this blog as i'm currently practicing the saxo bank demo trader GO platform.I just noticed that every time i put in a position (eurousd), and every time i try to close the position, the profit im getting becomes short (e.g i clicked at 100USD P/L, but the final closed figure is lesser - why is that?).I also noticed that my Cash Available is getting lower (i started @ 100,000USD not its in 99,600+ USD) even im getting +P/L but not closing the several pending positions @ -200 to 600USD. The margin utilisation though is increasing from 0% to 2.29%. Most of my closed position are positive P/L and trading 25,000 euro. I'm doing the demo 3 days back straight, SB platform is quite different from zulutrade in my observation.

Wish to get feedback on whats happening on my trade, am i losing or gaining?

They have embedded their " risk " management framework into the system. Whether it is fair to you is non of their concern. To wipe out your account can be their objective as they often can be your counterparty. The conflict of interest is unregulated. When it comes push to shove and you stand in front of the judge , you will be painted as one who takes on excessive risk and their risk Managment framework serves protects them even thou it is unfair. You can be sure your margin would not be enough when speculative drives from their properitry trading hits . They can calculate how much it takes for retail FX to hit their net stop loss .

I am a client and also have a bigger problem with a broker named banco carregosa, which is connected to saxobank.they also block access to stocks via their platform, lie to clients, still from them.In time I will disclose everything online.

John Hempton you shock me, your actually a complete moron who has no idea how the OTC foreign exchgange market works. You see john most good forex brokers hedge thier custome trades with a bank, in the case of the SNB shock many banks ammended the prices of the fills they gave brokers hence the brokers passed these price ammendements on. Its not uncommon for banks to leave "stale quotes" in the market especially when a big move occurs.

Why oh why are you a hedge fund manager John Hempton? You dont even know how the market operates.

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