^
didn't S/H mention they will compete both at junior and seniors ?
endurance would not be an issue here but they could focus on Sr. Worlds, Zhnags are injured and P/T are getting old
they are the new blood for the chinese pairs team.

I may be selfish, but they have won it twice in jr. worlds
but I'd rather look forward to seeing a new pairs gold winners. lol

Hey gang, if you have issues with a poster - don't drag a thread down. Either put them on ignore, or take the issues to PM. Fights from other boards are also not welcome here. So let's just focus on the real topic and not who can come up with the best insult.

Finally getting to watching the TV coverage of the pairs at 4CC. For the Canadians, I feel that Skate Canada should have used this competition to decide who to actually send to Worlds. Sorry, but Dube/Wolfe are still not ready for prime time. Yes, she is the former Canadian champion with a different partner. Yes, she is the supposed veteran. But that is precisely why it is so wrong for Skate Canada to send them to Worlds. Give them until next year. It's not the best thing for them, never mind for the potential spots for next year's worlds. If they go to worlds and do not place well, they will set a precedent, and it will be much harder for them next year. Add the Europeans and Russians to the mix, and they will be lucky to even crack the top 10. Poor Wolf is just out of Junior. Can we please let these 2 develop properly? There is good potential if they have the space and a little more time to gel as a team and get the tricks down. None of the Canadian skaters did particularly well here. All things considered, if the goal is to earn 3 spots to worlds next year, then Skate Canada should send D/R and MT/M. That is our best chance for 3 spots next year. MT/M had a horrendous skate at Nationals, but they have the highest international ranking with or next to D/R, and just missed the GPF. Once again, Skate Canada is shooting itself in the foot. I guess it is kind of hard to change now, but this is just so wrong after watching this event. If they could use this event as the decider for the ladies, I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the pairs, out of the bubble of Nationals.

I agree. Dube/Wolfe were something of a disaster at 4CC. Skate Canada should have sent MT/M to 4CC instead of Lawrence/Sweigers and declared a skate-off between D/W and MT/M as they did with the ladies.

Finally getting to watching the TV coverage of the pairs at 4CC. For the Canadians, I feel that Skate Canada should have used this competition to decide who to actually send to Worlds. Sorry, but Dube/Wolfe are still not ready for prime time. Yes, she is the former Canadian champion with a different partner. Yes, she is the supposed veteran. But that is precisely why it is so wrong for Skate Canada to send them to Worlds. Give them until next year. It's not the best thing for them, never mind for the potential spots for next year's worlds. If they go to worlds and do not place well, they will set a precedent, and it will be much harder for them next year. Add the Europeans and Russians to the mix, and they will be lucky to even crack the top 10. Poor Wolf is just out of Junior. Can we please let these 2 develop properly? There is good potential if they have the space and a little more time to gel as a team and get the tricks down. None of the Canadian skaters did particularly well here. All things considered, if the goal is to earn 3 spots to worlds next year, then Skate Canada should send D/R and MT/M. That is our best chance for 3 spots next year. MT/M had a horrendous skate at Nationals, but they have the highest international ranking with or next to D/R, and just missed the GPF. Once again, Skate Canada is shooting itself in the foot. I guess it is kind of hard to change now, but this is just so wrong after watching this event. If they could use this event as the decider for the ladies, I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the pairs, out of the bubble of Nationals.

Totally agree and the judging in pairs at 4CCs was lenient. If Canada does not obtain 3 pair spots next year for worlds it will be a huge missed opportunity. This is not to put down Dube/Wolfe but really their programs are not competitive with the top 8-10 in the world at this stage. Total miscalculation on Skate Canada's part.

Blades, I can appreciate what you're saying about death spirals--but I would rather not put the judges against the skaters and the ISU tech committee. What should happen is that fans, coaches, and skaters should all petition the ISU to get rid of these crap death spirals.

Also, I would like you to explain to me how to see a full rotation of prerotation in the throw and the twist, because clearly I am not looking at it in the right way--I'm not seeing it.

I agree. Dube/Wolfe were something of a disaster at 4CC. Skate Canada should have sent MT/M to 4CC instead of Lawrence/Sweigers and declared a skate-off between D/W and MT/M as they did with the ladies.

Yeah, it's dumb to leave MT/M at home. They've been doing very well at the GP events.

Blades, I can appreciate what you're saying about death spirals--but I would rather not put the judges against the skaters and the ISU tech committee. What should happen is that fans, coaches, and skaters should all petition the ISU to get rid of these crap death spirals.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Judges are supposed to grade the quality of an element on an absolute scale. The fact that these death spirals have poor positions and lose speed is something they should be marking off for. Skaters should have to choose which level element they want to put in the program by weighing how much GOE than can get (and of course how well it fits the choreography and music). If you score more points on a Level 3 element because you execute it better than a Level 4, then you should probably be doing that move instead. If GOE is just given out freely and without a critical eye, though, then everyone just does the max level element regardless of how well they can execute it because they know the judges will give them +GOE (or at least not give -GOE) anyway.

Originally Posted by dorispulaski

Also, I would like you to explain to me how to see a full rotation of prerotation in the throw and the twist, because clearly I am not looking at it in the right way--I'm not seeing it.

It appears to me that his hand doesn't leave her until she is facing him in the air on that Quad Salchow. He's picking her up and spinning her into the rotation.

On the Quad twist he releases her 3/4 of a rotation into it and then starts to catch her when 1/4 rotation is still left, so that too is a full turn of rotation which isn't completed in the air.

It's perfectly acceptable (and necessary in the majority of cases) for every jump, throw, and twist in skating to have a half turn of rotation not completed in the air during the takeoff. That's simply natural. When it goes beyond that, though, it becomes cheating. Now we must remember that 1/4 turn leeway is also allowed. A quad jump or throw can have 1/2 turn of setup rotation not done in the air and 1/4 turn of final rotation not completed fully in the air and still be considered complete. Thus, the bare minimum amount of air rotation for a Quad is 3.25 turns. For a Triple it is 2.25 turns. For a double it is 1.25 turns. If a jump or throw or twist is pre-rotated an extra 1/4 rotation on the takeoff past that acceptable 1/2 turn amount, then it should be understood that the jump/throw needs to be landed 100% backwards in order to be seen as complete. The 1/4 turn leeway that is allowed for the landing has already been used on the takeoff.

Because Sui/Han only completed these quads with 3 turns of rotation done fully in the air (rather than the minimum 3.25), they should be seen as underrotated. The ISU has not yet created a scale of values for underrotated throws and twists as they have for jumps, though. It's something that needs to be looked into. I do agree with ImaginaryPogue, however, that the base values for Quad throws and twists are undervalued in the CoP right now. So in that sense cheating these elements isn't as big of a deal to me because they aren't worth enough to begin with. The amount they are currently worth is closer to what the underrotated versions should be worth. Fully-rotated Quad throws and twists should be worth a couple points more than they currently are.

1. Yu Na Kim is Goddness, Mao is inferior.
2. Russians are Gods and Goddesses. Tuktamysheva will not grow because her parents are short( really? have you taken their DNA samples?).
3. Chinese skaters are inferior.

1. Yu Na Kim is Goddness, Mao is inferior.
2. Russians are Gods and Goddesses. Tuktamysheva will not grow because her parents are short( really? have you taken their DNA samples?).
3. Chinese skaters are inferior.

Interesting, how did Kim, Asada, Tuktamysheva, Russian skaters in general, and Chinese skaters in general get into this thread? Remember that it's called pairs long program? So a person who particularly prefers Kim to Asada, thinks Russian pair skaters are good, and dislike Sui/Han have this particular theme song or superiority/inferiority?

1. Yu Na Kim is Goddness, Mao is inferior.
2. Russians are Gods and Goddesses. Tuktamysheva will not grow because her parents are short( really? have you taken their DNA samples?).
3. Chinese skaters are inferior.

I"m not even sure how I can respond but by saying Sui/Han doesn't = every single Chinese skater. A couple of years ago Chen Lu was my avatar. And while I prefer the Russian school of pairs skating, I actually did prefer S/Z to T/M. One skater doesn't equal an entire nationality. There are skaters of every nationality, I like and don't like.