Firearm Insurance = Registration?

I read a thread here a few days ago about obtaining firearm insurance that reminded me of something that I read a few years ago.

That publication dealt solely with protecting your privacy and maintaining a low profile. The article recommended against taking out firearm insurance because then, depending on the requirements of your insurer, the exact details of your gun ownership would be on record for any bureaucrat with a "legitimate" sounding "need to know" to review.

If you've bought all of your firearms through a dealer, this will be a non-issue for you as your ownership is already on record.

For those of you who deliberately buy guns privately, do you have firearm insurance and, if so, did your insurer require full descriptions?

Well if your train of thought goes that way. posting on a firearm forum does the same thing ie: the folks who want to know can find out about who and where you are.

Hkmp5sd

January 16, 2003, 02:51 PM

I have a rider on my homeowners insurance to cover my firearms. I do not have to provide the insurer with a listing of my collection. The only requirement is that in the event of a claim, I have to show proof of what I owned.

As such, I have a detail inventory of my collection, including photographs, date purchased, from whom, amount paid, serial number, sales receipt, ect. My most expensive toys are NFA weapons, so there is no problem of proof there. About than half are C&R guns, so they are listed in my bound book (copy included in my safe deposit box).

Sheridan

January 16, 2003, 05:20 PM

posting on a firearm forum does the same thing ie: the folks who want to know can find out about who and where you are.

Sorry, posting on a firearm forum only means that I read about firearms. If I posted on zoo forums, does that mean I own an elephant?

My post shows an interest in privacy issues, in general, as they relate to firearms, in particular. It shouldn't, necessarily, be construed to mean anything else.

Bainx

January 16, 2003, 06:02 PM

Insurance=The Biggest Racket That Ever Existed
Nuff said

Welcome aboard, Cowdawg and Sheridan:cool:

Groupguy

January 16, 2003, 07:46 PM

"Insurance=The Biggest Racket That Ever Existed"

Tell that to the poor bastard who's house burns down, becomes disabled and no longer has an income, or needs a $100,000 organ transplant. Can you afford to protect your greatest assets without it? Wake up Bainx! Insurance=Necessary Evil, nuff said.:)

AR-10

January 16, 2003, 07:57 PM

Talked to my agent a while back about this.

He said through my houshold coverage I am covered for theft of my firearms up to $500.00 per incident.:what:

We talked about an inland marine policy to cover my firearms. He said it was expensive (it was), and to qualify I would need to have all my firearms appraised for current value and then submit the appraisal along with model #s and serial #s.

A safe was cheaper than the cost of the appraisal. If I have a fire and loose them, then they are covered. Course I have to prove how much they are worth...

blades67

January 16, 2003, 08:13 PM

I have a rider on my policy for my firearms. I only have to tell my insurance agent about the firearms I own in the event of theft or fire.

Gewehr98

January 18, 2003, 01:01 PM

Insurance=The Biggest Racket That Ever Existed

I'm in Hurricane Central. Dunno if I can even get the majority of my 100+ gun collection to the cars and out of town before things get really windy and wet, then there's the non-gun stuff that has to be saved, too. So I have a USAA rider on my home insurance policy to include my rifle and handgun collection. They wouldn't cover me without detailed descriptions, but to me it's another necessary evil to protect a lifetime's worth of investment.

MR.G

January 18, 2003, 01:40 PM

Firearm insurance with the NRA Endorsed insurance plans does not require serial numbers or descriptions of the insured guns, except for an individual gun valued over $2500.00.

Hkmp5sd

January 18, 2003, 01:50 PM

I'm in Hurricane Central.

I know a fellow that bought a fiberglass water storage tank from a local business that didn't use it anymore. It's about 10 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. He buried it in his back yard on its side with a 24" watertight manhole at ground level. Of course, after the first heavy rain of the season, his tank became a cork and shot out of the ground. He went back and installed some mobile home anchors and a little concrete and reburied it.

Although he hasn't had to evacuate yet, he says if he has to go, his "bomb shelter" should handle his guns and other collectibles. It also give him a place to stay if he comes home and the house is gone.

80fl

January 18, 2003, 02:00 PM

Sheridan:

Sorry, posting on a firearm forum only means that I read about firearms. If I posted on zoo forums, does that mean I own an elephant?

That was a good one!:cool:

I agree though. Any firearms that I may or may not have that may not be papered, I would prefer to take my chances at loss over a paper trail. The .gov would have no problem getting information from the insurance companies.

Art Eatman

January 18, 2003, 02:10 PM

My homeowner's policy just lists "personal effects". All I need are photos of any such thing as firearms, and a logbook of pertinent data. Between Fjestad's Blue Book and any current Shotgun News, reasonable "appraisal" values are readily provided.

Art

Soap

January 18, 2003, 02:22 PM

I have a rider policy on my insurance for my guns. My solution was to make a videotape of my modest battery and then put the video in a secure location. I do not have to provide a list of any kind to my insurance agency.

Gewehr98

January 19, 2003, 12:34 AM

But with my luck, when that vault uncorked from the ground, it'd drift out to the Atlantic (less than 100 yards from my house) and sink to the bottom. :(

farmersagent

March 4, 2006, 09:07 AM

Just wanted to give my two cents regarding the issue between insuring your firearms on an inland marine policy verses a homeowner’s floater.

In most cases your can increase the limits on your homeowners insurance firearm floater and it won't cost that much more a year. Keep in mind the following when you do this:

The firearms coverage only pays for the firearms should they be stolen or in a fire. If the peril isn't listed under the homeowners covered losses, the firearm will not be covered.

Any claim you make will be subject to your deductible. That means that even though you have a $5000/$10000 floater on your homeowner’s policy you'll still have to pay your deductible, which in most cases is 1% of your dwelling amount.

Should you have a loss that falls under the covered peril clause and let's say your firearm as worth $12,000 they will only pay you the maximum amount per firearm (in the case above, that's $5,000) minus your deductible.

The benefits of having a personal inland marine policy:

In most cases an inland marine policy will cover any peril and there is no deductible.

Each firearm is insured and listed separately, which means if you insure your
Colt Single Action .45 for $1800 that's exactly what they'll pay should you make a claim.

Inland marine policies tend to be on the pricey side, but if your willing to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for your firearms, aren't they worth insuring??

Keep telling yourself that. Than when a big problem hits you can spend the rest of your life paying the bill, like my neighbor with a triple-by-pass and no insurance. Or try and pay for cancer treatment without insurance.

My gun shop burned to the ground.
Many thousands of dollars in equipment, ammo and 7 guns.
The only proof that I had of what was destroyed was a few pictures of the inside of the place.
Everything was replaced at current market value. Except the building was replaced with a FAR nicer building than the one that burned.

The insurance companies, and I've been with a few, have told me that my guns and equipment are personal property and all I might have to show is proof, like a picture and serial number, if the gun is destroyed .

But now, it is true that I have far more gun value than my personal property will cover if most were destroyed but at my age I really don't care.

CB900F

March 4, 2006, 05:49 PM

Fella's;

If you insure your guns, or perhaps more accurately- you think you've got your guns insured - you need to have a recorded conversation with your agent demanding maximum clarification about your policy, your guns, your circumstances.

Or, you can self insure. Don't buy an RSC, but a safe. As in an Underwriter's Laboratory rated safe. The real thing, not a Liberty, not a Browning, not a Cannon, a real safe. The cost isn't all that high, the security is, IMHO, more reliable than the insurance policy you may be paying premiums on now, and you will sleep better while gone on vacation.

Disclaimer: Yes, I sell safes. Real safes. I'm a professional locksmith who specializes in safe sales.

900F

MGshaggy

March 4, 2006, 06:32 PM

So what would you recommend in terms of a real safe with a capacity similar to that of an AMSEC 6040 or 7040? I'm in the market for a new safe and want something a bit bigger and sturdier than the 6030 or 6032 I have now.

What brand and models would have that kind of capacity with a TL-15 or TL-30 rating. What kind of price range for something of that size and rating?

Standing Wolf

March 4, 2006, 08:06 PM

The reason my car insurance company, American Family, didn't get my house insurance dollars is that the company wanted me to register my guns with it.

LAR-15

March 4, 2006, 08:08 PM

How is a gun safe not a real safe?

LAR-15

March 4, 2006, 08:09 PM

Yeah I'd be very leary about registering guns and bows with an insurance company.

Can insurance companies make you pay more for disclosing you own guns?

MGshaggy

March 4, 2006, 08:18 PM

How is a gun safe not a real safe?

Most gun safes are only rated RSC (Residential Security Container). The relatively thin steel of an RSC safe can be ripped open quite easily compared to a safe with a TL rating. Here's a quick summary of UL ratings:

Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.
TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.
TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.
TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.
TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices.

http://www.thesafesource.com/safe_ratings.htm

LAR-15

March 4, 2006, 08:25 PM

Thanks so it's all about theft resistance?

CB900F

March 4, 2006, 09:46 PM

LAR;

No, it's about fire and theft for a quality unit. Just a suggestion, do a search of "RSC", I've posted about the differences a couple of times.

MGshaggy;

I'm at home, and not sure just what the specs are on the AMSEC's you are referencing. PM me with your size & capacity requirements & I'll be happy to suggest units & prices to you.

900F

Winger Ed.

March 5, 2006, 03:18 AM

'Gun safes' vs 'real safes':

First: I'm not a locksmith*

*
If the safe or vault door is open, I can change a finicky lock quicker than most, but not 'fix' the old one.LOL
**

Anyway:
Although not a locksmith, I do work for a 'real' safe company.
I work out back, in the shop; fixing, painting, repairing, rebuilding, restoring antique safes/vaults, and fabricating parts or installing locks & such for special orders and new instalations.

From what I've seen as a shooter, firearms and homeowner, that has had, and worked on or with both types of safe:

Most of the 'gun safes' you see on the market are a 1/8th inch or so thick steel box with a big heavy door and fancy lock. And you can pick them up and move them around like a unusually heavy refrigerator unless they are bolted to a concrete floor.

Sure the specs. on the door, bolts, and even the lock are impressive. But, attacking the sides, top, or backside with a even common fire ax will usually result in about a 6" gash with each stroke. The average size guy can rip open about a 5 foot by 2 foot pannel in what? 5 minutes or so? But,,,, a 'gun safe' does keep almost all the High School kids, junkies, and your children out..........

Oh, and if your 'gun safe' is fire resistant, that normally means you paid a extra hundred or so dollars to have 1/2" sheetrock glued to the inside before the manufacturer laid in the carpet against the outter walls.

///////////

A 'real safe'? Yeah, you can get into it too,,,,, eventually.

But, the difference being:

They usually have a 1/8th inch or so outter shell-- like the walls of a 'gun safe', and a 2 inch or so gap between that and thier inner wall, which is made with between 1/4" and 1 inch steel*** (ya get what ya pay for). This gap serves as a mold, and is filled with concrete that should have a agragate of Carborundum 'rocks' (sort of a cheap, man made/synthetic diamond) instead of gravel.

***
See above posts refering to TL-15 and TL 30 ratings
***

The Carborundum rocks used as a filler in the concrete are what they make grinding wheels and grinder discs with. They eat drill bits and saw blades as fast as you touch them with one. Plus this concrete mix insulates against fire real well too--- at least as good as a 1/2" piece of sheetrock.

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The only other difference between a 'real safe' and a 'gun safe' is about $3-5,000 (make your best deal with the salesman) dollars and 4-6,000 pounds (plus shipping).