So it looks like Spain, France, Germany, Brazil and Mexico are mad over some phone surveillance and the Pres is catching a little heat over it. Yeah, it's probably not doing us any good as far as international relationships go but I can't really say that I have a problem with it. They aren't American citizens under the protection of our constitution, so why not spy on them? I wish it was never discovered and I wish our Pres would put on his big boy pants and quit saying that he doesn't know what's going on, but other than that, eff 'em.

Would I get offended if I found out they were spying on us? Nope. I would be upset that we weren't taking the precautions we should to protect our self from what we should have assumed was happening.

I think it is all faux outrage anyways because they know they are doing or trying to do the same thing.

I agree completely.

A politician thinks of the next election; a statesman of the next generation. A politician looks for the success of his party; a statesman for that of the country. The statesman wished to steer, while the politician was satisfied to drift.

SpinnerMan wrote:Would I get offended if I found out they were spying on us? Nope. I would be upset that we weren't taking the precautions we should to protect our self from what we should have assumed was happening......

I partially agree with this. Yes, we know what's happening and should protect ourselves from it, but it shouldn't be happening. If the police force was committing acts of rape upon the public, should the public have to wear steel chastity belts? Cure the diseas rather than simply treating the symptoms.

Exactly. One of the worst agencies for spying on the US is the Mossad. They are particularly effective at it. Why would our Allies spy on the US. Mainly because we don't always tell them the truth. We spy on everyone, and they spy on us. This is a very old game.

SpinnerMan wrote:Would I get offended if I found out they were spying on us? Nope. I would be upset that we weren't taking the precautions we should to protect our self from what we should have assumed was happening......

I partially agree with this. Yes, we know what's happening and should protect ourselves from it, but it shouldn't be happening. If the police force was committing acts of rape upon the public, should the public have to wear steel chastity belts? Cure the diseas rather than simply treating the symptoms.

Spinner, when I first read your quote I think I took it wrong. By "they" I was thinking you meant the NSA spying on us. After reading it again it sounds like the "they" you were referring to are the other countries who are spying on our country. To this I am in total agreement with you.

SpinnerMan wrote:Would I get offended if I found out they were spying on us? Nope. I would be upset that we weren't taking the precautions we should to protect our self from what we should have assumed was happening......

I partially agree with this. Yes, we know what's happening and should protect ourselves from it, but it shouldn't be happening. If the police force was committing acts of rape upon the public, should the public have to wear steel chastity belts? Cure the diseas rather than simply treating the symptoms.

They being our allies. An ally is a temporary condition of history. It is not family, friend, or countrymen.

The NSA is countrymen. They are bound by our Constitution. To violate that makes them a traitor. A despicable human being that should be shot. A spy is a noble profession.

A politician thinks of the next election; a statesman of the next generation. A politician looks for the success of his party; a statesman for that of the country. The statesman wished to steer, while the politician was satisfied to drift.

ScaupHunter wrote:Actually, Spying is a profession during war that gets you an automatic execution. Nothing noble about it. Just a bullet to the head when you are caught.

So you would never be a spy for your country?

It is noble because you are taking precisely that risk for your country. It is noble because it is valuable to your country. Noble because it is a completely ethical part of war. Noble because there is little personal benefit to it. It is a very noble thing to do for your country.

What is not noble about it?

A politician thinks of the next election; a statesman of the next generation. A politician looks for the success of his party; a statesman for that of the country. The statesman wished to steer, while the politician was satisfied to drift.

ScaupHunter wrote:Actually, Spying is a profession during war that gets you an automatic execution. Nothing noble about it. Just a bullet to the head when you are caught.

So you would never be a spy for your country?

It is noble because you are taking precisely that risk for your country. It is noble because it is valuable to your country. Noble because it is a completely ethical part of war. Noble because there is little personal benefit to it. It is a very noble thing to do for your country.

What is not noble about it?

Quit watching James Bond movies. That is not what spies do for a living.

Spy rings are normally run by individuals who have diplomatic immunity and cannot be touched. In some cases groups such as the CIA in the US runs spy rings without that immunity depending on the conditions. You might be able to call spying as an American National in a foreign country noble if you really reach out there and grasp for it.

True spies are normally citizens of the nation being spied upon. They are by definition traitors who often are working for money, sex, or other items they desire. Some work for greed, some for power, others to get even with their government. There are many reasons people spy against their own nations interests.

Spying while dangerous is also very common place and if done properly pretty safe. You will never meet a CIA spy that stands out in much if any way. They specifically pick bland looking people who blend into almost any environment. They almost never carry weapons, and are incredibly discreet. What most people thing of as spies, are hunter killer teams. These are usually ex-military or active military units that work for or with NSA, CIA, etc........

Now mind you every soldier in Iraq and Afghanstan is technically also a spy. Every one of them is eyes and ears for Military Intelligence officers. Every SF team operating anywhere in the world is constantly spying and looking for things to report.

ScaupHunter wrote:Actually, Spying is a profession during war that gets you an automatic execution. Nothing noble about it. Just a bullet to the head when you are caught.

So you would never be a spy for your country?

It is noble because you are taking precisely that risk for your country. It is noble because it is valuable to your country. Noble because it is a completely ethical part of war. Noble because there is little personal benefit to it. It is a very noble thing to do for your country.

What is not noble about it?

Quit watching James Bond movies. That is not what spies do for a living.

Spy rings are normally run by individuals who have diplomatic immunity and cannot be touched. In some cases groups such as the CIA in the US runs spy rings without that immunity depending on the conditions. You might be able to call spying as an American National in a foreign country noble if you really reach out there and grasp for it.

True spies are normally citizens of the nation being spied upon. They are by definition traitors who often are working for money, sex, or other items they desire. Some work for greed, some for power, others to get even with their government. There are many reasons people spy against their own nations interests.

Spying while dangerous is also very common place and if done properly pretty safe. You will never meet a CIA spy that stands out in much if any way. They specifically pick bland looking people who blend into almost any environment. They almost never carry weapons, and are incredibly discreet. What most people thing of as spies, are hunter killer teams. These are usually ex-military or active military units that work for or with NSA, CIA, etc........

Now mind you every soldier in Iraq and Afghanstan is technically also a spy. Every one of them is eyes and ears for Military Intelligence officers. Every SF team operating anywhere in the world is constantly spying and looking for things to report.

I had it explained to me exactly like this many moons ago by my friends mother who was very high up in the agency. It was the main reason the CIA was against legislation at the time that would have forbidden the agency from doing business with unsavory characters. Who else betrays their country?

Sent from my iPhone 5, which sucks my cojones. Don't buy one.

In a free society, it is not the obligation of the citizen to prove to the government that he is a good person. It is the obligation of the government to prove to the rest of the citizenry that the citizen is a bad person, with probable cause.

ScaupHunter wrote:Actually, Spying is a profession during war that gets you an automatic execution. Nothing noble about it. Just a bullet to the head when you are caught.

So you would never be a spy for your country?

It is noble because you are taking precisely that risk for your country. It is noble because it is valuable to your country. Noble because it is a completely ethical part of war. Noble because there is little personal benefit to it. It is a very noble thing to do for your country.

What is not noble about it?

Quit watching James Bond movies. That is not what spies do for a living.

Spy rings are normally run by individuals who have diplomatic immunity and cannot be touched. In some cases groups such as the CIA in the US runs spy rings without that immunity depending on the conditions. You might be able to call spying as an American National in a foreign country noble if you really reach out there and grasp for it.

True spies are normally citizens of the nation being spied upon. They are by definition traitors who often are working for money, sex, or other items they desire. Some work for greed, some for power, others to get even with their government. There are many reasons people spy against their own nations interests.

Spying while dangerous is also very common place and if done properly pretty safe. You will never meet a CIA spy that stands out in much if any way. They specifically pick bland looking people who blend into almost any environment. They almost never carry weapons, and are incredibly discreet. What most people thing of as spies, are hunter killer teams. These are usually ex-military or active military units that work for or with NSA, CIA, etc........

Now mind you every soldier in Iraq and Afghanstan is technically also a spy. Every one of them is eyes and ears for Military Intelligence officers. Every SF team operating anywhere in the world is constantly spying and looking for things to report.

I already said traitors are despicable.

And there are all kinds of spies. Most probably never leave the U.S. as per the NSA spying electronically. You are the one that seems to have the James Bond version stuck in your head and projected it on to me. Given that the topic was about electronic spying, those engaged in it are engaged in a noble profession if they are spying for our country and traitors if they are violating our constitution by spying on their countrymen without just cause. You are the one that brought in the spies getting shot and I responded to it. The foreigners we turn traitors are scum, but just like informants, it's these scum that you need to use.

One of the most interesting things I ever did was when I was working in Los Alamos for a summer, this was after the Wen Ho Lee and a number of other things. We had a counterintelligence stand down and we had two days of counterintelligence training. Most of this was discussing how real spying worked so we would know what to look for and how to avoid getting caught up in in it. It was very fascinating. They should run it on PBS regularly. I have work regularly with nuclear weapons designer. I have learned just a little bit about real spying. All of them were spied on regularly when they left the country. It would have freaked me out, but they laughed about it. All of them would have their stuff left in the hotel rooms searched and they had little tricks to know when it happened. It was just part of the job for them.

A politician thinks of the next election; a statesman of the next generation. A politician looks for the success of his party; a statesman for that of the country. The statesman wished to steer, while the politician was satisfied to drift.