you're right actually, I retract my statement on that part. however ippons should only be awarded for slams. drop ISN is my favourite technique but I don't think anyone should get ippon for that, its just a takedown unless they land on their head

I agree about slams =/= takedowns, after all the best drop ISN will never show power control and technique as a Koga ISN, for instance, would. I always feel a bit cheated when they get me with that one, it's like, "ok let's do this front roll together, now hold me down!" ...no, it's ippon. Damnit.

Also, it scares me how knees are endangered if uke sprawls, but that goes with many "competition" techniques. It can mess the Posterior Cruciate Ligament and that's harder to fix than other ligaments.

Originally Posted by Mtripp

A throwing ippon in Judo should have the same components of the "total victory" slam in Sambo. That would fix it big time.

This would eliminate drop ISN as an ippon throw, but wouldn't it also make it harder to achieve ippon in general, thus driving players to play it "safe" and look for smaller advantages?
Of course I assume you're talking about competition here.

questions from a dirty bjjer here; hopefully they're sufficiently tall for this forum:

Originally Posted by creativo

I agree about slams =/= takedowns, after all the best drop ISN will never show power control and technique as a Koga ISN, for instance, would. I always feel a bit cheated when they get me with that one, it's like, "ok let's do this front roll together, now hold me down!" ...no, it's ippon. Damnit.

Also, it scares me how knees are endangered if uke sprawls, but that goes with many "competition" techniques. It can mess the Posterior Cruciate Ligament and that's harder to fix than other ligaments.

the pcl can be injured if uke sprawls during drop seio? have i completely misread you, or can you explain what you mean?

This would eliminate drop ISN as an ippon throw, but wouldn't it also make it harder to achieve ippon in general, thus driving players to play it "safe" and look for smaller advantages?
Of course I assume you're talking about competition here.

wouldn't it simply get combo'd into an armbar, and win anyway? that's what i'm used to from a bjj context, where there's obviously no ippon...

Drop ISN is 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times safer than any highlight real Koga Seio. He was always a fly's ass hair away from a broken neck. IIRC they had to put a stop to it in Europe because of some injuries and labeled it a head dive.

In the case of the guy sprawling back from a drop ISN I don't think the risk of injury is high to anyone. Unless after the sprawl he pulls tori back over his feet to try to pin him, then some knee injury is possible.

Yes Pauli that is what you should do in any competition Judo or BJJ but too many Judo people have conditioned themselves to look up at the ref for a score after they do a take down they forget the reason they are on the mat. Which is to finish the guy you are competing against.

IF again IF the IJF would just do what the rules say an ippon is then there would be less of a problem. When a contestant WITH CONTROL throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed. But the liberal interpretation over rides the conservative interpretation. Like Mark said a Sambo total victory wold be nice OR back to the old school 2 ippon rule.

Unless you are competing for an Olympic spot then I would not worry too much about all of this anyway. Go to the local tournaments and have a good time. The price of a Judo tournament is cheaper than a BJJ one and you will have a good time. Plus its another chance to try out you skills against some unsuspecting saps from another dojo.

questions from a dirty bjjer here; hopefully they're sufficiently tall for this forum:

the pcl can be injured if uke sprawls during drop seio? have i completely misread you, or can you explain what you mean?

Well, if you're perfectly kneeling it's not the case, but imagine the calf is out of axis with the thigh, like this: /| (from above)
Pushing down hard will cause a cutting/separating force on the PCL. I'm no physician, but I've sprained it (albeit lightly) in that way, and a friend got it broken beyond repair, because it's relatively rare and at the time there weren't established surgical methods for that injury (80's).

edit: didn't manage to read Coach Josh's reply; I don't think Koga ISN is safer, and by the way what works for Koga doesn't have to work for, well, regular people. And you're right, the "pulling back" part is where the risk gets higher, but I have strange knees and I got spraining just by the off-axis push down. I'll ask about the exact dynamics of the accident to my friend, I might have reported it sloppily.

Originally Posted by pauli

wouldn't it simply get combo'd into an armbar, and win anyway? that's what i'm used to from a bjj context, where there's obviously no ippon...

Sure, many drop ISN are called as waza ari (half ippon) anyways, and from there you can continue in groundfighting and seek for an armbar or another attack. But when they are called as ippon, it's over, even if the "fall" was more of a roll.

Now I'm playing expert but I'm not really very knowledgeable about shiai, I trust I'll soon be corrected by more experienced people if it's the case.

A throwing ippon in Judo should have the same components of the "total victory" slam in Sambo. That would fix it big time.

Part of the Sambo total victory is how the thrower lands in relation to the throwee, right? I never liked that if I do a big uchimata and roll over my opponent, I could end up in a pin but still get an Ippon in Judo.....

The fool thinks himself immortal,
If he hold back from battle;
But old age will grant him no truce,
Even if spears spare him.

Part of the Sambo total victory is how the thrower lands in relation to the throwee, right? I never liked that if I do a big uchimata and roll over my opponent, I could end up in a pin but still get an Ippon in Judo.....

The thing is though not only does this kind of throw allow the victim to recover if the victory isn't awarded, but also they won't land as hard as a throw where you land on them.

o goshi and uchi mata for example become deadly (and I think without mats you could probably take that literally) when you land on the guy..

"The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato

Makikomi are legit judo throws. using the Sambo criteria for ippon would make them unviable in shiai.

I would like to see a return to a much older interpretation of ippon regarding force, speed, control, and largely on the back. The one in use when I started in 1981 would be sufficient. Two ippon matches would be a good thing too, especially at the developmental level.

I have never seen anyone (uke) get a knee injury doing drop seoinage, ippon or morote. I've done both for over 20 years, and never injured my knee from doing so.

I think one COULD get injrued as one poster described above, but in my experience it is rare if not non-existant.

As to the USJA thing, this is a cyclical occurance with them, has been going on for decades. Like Mark said, it doesn't surprise me either.

A major part of this interview, overlooked by the arguments about the merits of scoring methodology and the practical aspects of techniques, has to do with the attitudes of judoka.

Kano developed a philosophy as part of judo, "mutual welfare and benefit," that he thought was an important part of the development of judoka, and was a goal of the practice of judo.

Okano sensei touches on this in two aspects at least; the grip-fighting encouraged by tightened gis and the lack of focus on solid ukemi.

In mentioning that judoka are shifting toward more grip fighting, he is (i believe) commenting on the inflated ego of judoka as they practice - each wants to always win the throw and thwart the efforts of their partner. This flies in the face of "mutual welfare and benefit" as a maxim of judo.

The lack of confident ukemi leads to anxiety at taking lots (and lots!) of falls, causing them to strive to constantly be the thrower and never the thrown, placing their ego above the learning of their training partners.

I believe that a large part of what Okana sensei is lamenting is that a practical result of turning judo into an olympic sport, done for the purpose of spreading the art far and wide, the spirit of judo has been sacrificed to new ideals of individual success rather than the evolution of practitioners, and thereby the art.

Of course, i'm a recreational player learning from a traditionalist judoka, and have no interest in competition, preferring to improve my judo and that of my partners so we can discover kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake (and rollin around on the mat!) rather than ippon.