I think the question of WWGHA is an important one which does, in fact, tie into this whole topic.

You see, IF God existed, he would have the power to heal amputees. He would have the power to make the lives of believers objectively, measurably better than those of people who rejected him. He would, one would imagine, do something about the vast amounts of suffering that go on in the world. If he was omnipotent and benevolent as the Bible would have us believe.

I'm not talking about making God into a "genie in a bottle", as some like to claim we try to do...Just to maybe do something about, oh, mass starvation, tusnamis, tornadoes and the like. You can go into the rhetoric about how Satan has dominion on the earth and whatnot, but if this is so, then the verses in the Bible where God promises to answer prayers become pointless.

So, IF God existed, a god who would actually do some of the things he has promised might be a deity actually worth worshipping. It would be clear that the relationship with him DID give a measurable advantage in life. And there likely would be only one religion, so the chances of people being damned to hell for simple disbelief would be neglegible.

If God were to truly love us, wouldn't he try to set things up so that all these things would be clear? It would still not have any impact on free will...anyone who was stubborn enough to turn their back on him could still do that.

edited to add: there would, of course, still be the problem that even those stubborn holdouts would still be destined for everlasting torment-which I can't imagine anyone deserves for anything. But if the entire population could honestly experience palpable examples of god's love and benevolence (which an omnipotent deity could easily provide to each person), I'd imagine the holdouts would be very few and far between.

Worshipping a god who insists on remaining hidden then punishes those who don't find him is a whole different kettle of fish, as such a god effectively damns the majority of his creation by remaining undetectable. And such a tyrant is NOT worthy of worship.

Well, the literal god of the Bible would, as others have already pointed out, be a sadistic, all-powerful lunatic. I certainly would not worship such a being; even to go through the motions would be pointless, given such its omnipotence.

Though Literal Biblegod would also be riddled with contradictions, so it might just be possible to thwart him under certain circumstances (iron chariots, anybody?).

And Eloi, you really, really need to grasp this: being an atheist means having no belief in a god or gods. Period. The regulars on this forum are actually pretty varied; witness the exchange between fungusdrool and others on this very thread.

Logged

Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius

No belief system, period? Hope you are not representing the whole 'Atheism'. I am very curious, girl.

LOL, just like a theist to misunderstand me. Your Christianity is based on a belief/faith in Jesus. For atheism, there isn't a unifying faith, rather a lack thereof. Of course we can believe in women's rights, but is atheism based on that? NO. We decide who we want to be, and what causes we want to fight for. We're not cookie-cutter shaped sheeple.

Let me turn this question on its head. Why should God be limited to just one method of saving people from sin? If the intent is to save people from sin, then why not have two methods, or three, or many more? Why limit the methods to arbitrarily say that just this one method, and no other, works?

Logged

Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

As is often the case, it's disgusting behaviour has brought out the best in some members. I'll stomp on cockroaches like that all day, if it means I can continue to enjoy such quality posts from our members.

Are you basically saying "I would much rather endure eternal hell, so that I don't have to go to heaven?"That is just mind blowing.

Only if you didn't read any of our posts. You know the ones, the ones that characterize the god as a tyrannical psychopathic thug because that's the only way we can interpret the behavior of the thing described in the bible? Once you actually read for comprehension, it's not mind-blowing at all.

Quote

That is equally mind blowing. No belief system?

Yep, atheists -- as a whole -- have no belief system. The only thing that all atheists share is a lack of a belief in any gods. Everything else is up for grabs. You can be liberal or conservative, rational or drenched in woo, and as long as you have no god-belief, you're an atheist. There is no other qualification, and one would be hard pressed to argue that a single characteristic constitutes a "system".

Quote

Hope you are not representing the whole 'Atheism'. I am very curious, girl.

She simply defined atheism. I think from the context of what she was saying that honest people would understand she was not talking about atheists as individuals, but rather atheists as a whole.

Having said that, it's been my experience that most atheists tend towards rationalism, although it might be hard to figure out which is the cart and which is the horse. It's probably different for different atheists.

And yes, there is a certain amount of anger and hatred here. It's probably because thanks to thousands of years of religious slander, atheists are the most distrusted minority in the US.

Quote

By looking at your posts, it seems that it doesn't even matter even if God healed amputees or not.Whether God exists or not you guys will not go with the bible God's salvation plan, would you?

Again you ignore our posts where we answer this very question. What you call god's salvation plan, we see as a tyrannical protection racket. If we don't like Al Capon doing it, we certainly aren't going to worship an omnipotent being doing it.

For some reason -- I assume -- you do worship an omnipotent being who runs a protection racket.

And speaking for myself, if the god were demonstrated to exist -- due to a miraculous amputee healing -- it would be the most important piece of information in the universe. I need to know if a god exists, because I need to know that I have to figure out how to destroy it.

I can't answer that question about 'jesus' until you define which god you mean. The definition for what 'god' is... isn't very clear, after all.

It would be kinda stupid to hitch my trailer to 'jesus' if 'the' god that existed wasn't associated with that 'jesus' mythology at all. Maybe 'JHVH' exists, but the Jesus stories were a bunch of crap some cultists made up and/or adapted from other, earlier 'savior' demigod myths.

So maybe one of the demigods roughly matching the 'jesus' mythology exists, but it's 1000+ years older, and not 'Jesus' at all, would worshiping something 'like' that demigod be 'close enough' to satisfy it?

But what if 'god' exists, and so do a whole bunch of other gods and goddesses? Why not? Then it would make a lot more sense to do some shopping. Especially with 'eternity' on the line.

But since no proof (or even evidence) exists one way or another for ANY god, we're left in a permanent holding pattern. Why commit to any given god when all the others will burn us or rape us or eat us or whatever for eternity for guessing wrong?

So everyone else would accept eternal damnation rather than submit to the most powerful thing in the universe? And in fact the creator itself? You would go against the universe itself? Just to be stubborn? Frankly, I don't believe it.

I think either the actuality of the consequences have not set in or you're not treating the question seriously.

I remember, concerning waterboarding, when one news reporter was incredulous about "how bad it could be". He didn't last 10 seconds. And that's not burning in hell fire without respite for all eternity.

In fact, I don't think its even possible for any human to grasp just how terrifying hell really would be.

If God existed, I believe there would be no dissenters. ZERO. It would be impossible. The whole universe would beat to a single drum.

Since we're presumably talking about the god of the Bible, rather than the god of "orthodox" Christian theology (they are not the same), there are some "facts" you are not taking into consideration:

1. Yahweh is not the only god, and some of the others are comparable in power.

The Hebrew Scriptures make frequent references to other gods as real entities. The commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" presupposes the existence of other gods. In the Book of Daniel, there is an account where an angel comes to deliver a message to the prophet in response to prayer, but he was held back for 21 days by "the Prince of Persia" (Daniel 10:13). This situation continued until "Michael, your prince" (spiritual "prince" of Judah) arrived with reinforcements. The battle with the Prince of Persia continued, and would continue "until the Prince of Grecia (Greece) comes" (10:20). It is the most basic element of strategy that one does not engage an enemy in pitched battle if the enemy has overwhelming superiority. If that is the case, you employ hit-and-run guerrilla tactics. The very fact that Yahweh needs messengers, and they can be interdicted, is proof that he's not invincible.

In the 27th and 28th chapters of Ezekiel, Yahweh sets himself against the city of Tyre and its "covering cherub" (spiritual patron deity). He promises that Nebuchadnezzar will loot and destroy the city. When this fails, he promises Nebuchadnezzar "the treasures of Egypt" as his "wages." See Ezekiel 29:17-20. Nebuchadnezzar also failed to conquer Egypt. So, the guardian of Tyre, and the gods of Egypt both managed to foil the alliance of Yahweh and Babylon.

In the New Testament, Paul makes several references to warfare against "principalities and powers in heavenly places." Note the plural here. He is not referring to warfare against a single Satanic principality[1] in the underworld. Paul's "spiritual warfare" was ongoing, centuries after the events in the Book of Daniel.

So here we see that according to the Bible, there are other spiritual powers that can meet Yawheh head-on in battle, and even defeat him. And no catalog of Yahweh's vincibility is complete without this one:

Quote

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

--Judges 1:19

So, not only are there rival spiritual powers who can match Yahweh, fairly rudimentary human technology can do so as well. Yahweh's "theopolitical" situation is not actually very strong. He's at war with multiple adversaries, at least some of whom are peer competitors, and has a long-running insurgency[2] within his own realm. Then there's nuclear-armed humanity...

2. Humans are stronger than Yahweh's worshipers would like to admit.

In the Garden of Eden, Yahweh's worry after humans ate the Fruit of Knowledge was not that they would die as he claimed, but that they wouldn't. If they partook of the Tree of Life, they would complete their ascent to divinity, so he was forced to drive them out of the Garden. Right at the start, Yahweh came within a hair's breadth of being completely pwned. In the 11th chapter of Genesis, Yahweh fears the potential exhibited by the scientific, mathematical, and engineering capability inherent in an astronomically-aligned mud-brick ziggurat. He says, "Nothing they set out to do will be withheld from them." To prevent this, he scrambles human language (which would later prove to be a major hindrance to his "spread the Gospel of Jesus" plan). Today, we have far more impressive technology than the king of Shinar. Not to mention the rapid development of natural-language translation software which threatens to defeat Yawheh's curse in the context of a global human family united by instantaneous communication.[3]

It is even possible that a physically fit man may be as strong as Yahweh. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 32:24-30, Jacob wrestles with Yahweh all night long,[4] and Yahweh could not prevail. He had to "cheat" by using his powers to dislocate Jacob's hip. Then he asked Jacob to let him go because it was daybreak,[5]Indicating, perhaps, a limit on the time he could remain in corporeal form, or some other sort of vulnerability that made an escape from Jacob imperative. Jacob still refuses to release him, and is able to extort a blessing even with his dislocated hip joint. Yahweh actually admits defeat in verse 28!

3. Yahweh may already be defeated.

Yahweh is clearly a lousy strategist and tactician. Like most other supervillains, he likes to brag about his Big Plans before he's accomplished them. It is abundantly clear in the New Testament that Yahweh intended to hold the Battle of Armageddon within the lifetime of the generation of Jesus and his disciples. Every NT author who writes on the subject of eschatology claims, often repeatedly, that it's all due to happen Real Soon Now. The Book of Revelation was not written to modern Americans. It was written to seven churches in Asia Minor that existed around 90 C.E. Says so right there in the opening chapters.

Yahweh's Big Battle Plan was to appear at Megiddo with a massed cavalry force, to face Roman legions and cavalry. If he were to employ such tactics today, against modern armored infantry, air power, precision-guided munitions, drone aircraft, and nuclear weapons, he and his minions would be massacred.

However, the main thing to think about here is that Yahweh's plan for Armageddon failed. For some reason, he was not able to open the dimensional portal and bring his forces through in time for the High Priest Caiaphas to "see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 26:64). The Bible obviously does not offer us an explanation for this, beyond the feeble "explanation" offered in II Peter 3:8. The author goes on, in the next few verses, to re-emphasize that the eschaton is at hand, that his readers should "look for" Yahweh's predictions to be fulfilled. Even here, believers are not told that it will be thousands of years, so it's time for Christians to start building enduring institutions and planning for a long future.

One possible explanation would be that Yahweh is actually constrained by his Prophecy Checklists, like a wizard trapped in his own spell. He could not, for example, predict a Battle of Armageddon (the Valley of Megiddo), and launch his attack at Smyrna or Byzantium. If this is the case, then if his Prophecy Checklist is stopped, then he is stopped. Jesus predicted that the Jewish Temple would be destroyed, that "not one stone would be left upon another." If this hypothesis is correct, then any spiritual opponent of Yahweh could have defeated him simply by whispering in Emperor Tiberias' ear, after the conquest of Jerusalem in the Jewish War: "See that wall of their Temple there? Leave it up." The continued existence of the Wailing Wall is a failure of Jesus' prediction concerning the Temple, which was part of his eschatological scheme.

Now of course, the whole Christian prophetic scheme has been demolished so completely that Evangelical prophecy-mongers have to postulate ridiculously absurd scenarios to try to make Yahweh's plan work out. Now there has to be a "revived Roman Empire" with a leader who abolishes all religions but worship of him, while simultaneously rebuilding a Jewish Temple and re-instituting Jewish sacrifices to Yahweh, so that a mere three and a half years later he can defile said Temple[6] in imitation of Antiochus Epiphanes. Meanwhile, in reality, the Jews have had 2,000 years to "move on" from the whole animal sacrifice thing, and couldn't re-establish it if they wanted to, due to the existence of the Dome of the Rock. Europe is going bankrupt rather than rising toward world domination, there are whole continents full of people and a nuclear-armed superpower that the Plan doesn't even account for, and nobody uses horse cavalry anymore.

4. It is not likely that Yahweh can send anyone to Hell before his post-eschatological "Last Judgment."

The Bible is notoriously murky and self-contradictory when it comes to what happens after death. In the Hebrew Scriptures, there are almost no intimations of any afterlife, good or bad. In the ninth chapter of Ecclesiastes, we find an explicit rejection of the notion of an afterlife, or any reward after death (9:5-6). In the New Testament, people are only condemned to Hell after the Last Judgment, which occurs after all of the other items on the Prophecy Checklist. The only indication to the contrary is the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)[7], which is given as part of a discourse with other parables, and is thus likely to be a parable itself, rather than a description of real events.

So, if it is the case that Yawheh has already been defeated, or he has been constrained by the failure of his Prophecy Checklist, it follows that Hell is not an inescapable consequence of opposing Yahweh. Since there are other gods, it is possible that by allying with them, we could end up in one of their hereafters, or (if Yahweh somehow has a monopoly on afterlives now) for all practical intents and purposes, none.

5. Heaven isn't what it's cracked up to be.

The very choice that you consider to be impossible--rejecting "Heaven" and facing the prospect of Hell by rebelling against Yahweh--is one that was ostensibly made, on an informed basis, by Lucifer and a third of Yahweh's angels. Unlike us, they have more than a book to go on. The sixth chapter of Genesis tells us of a second angelic rebellion. "Sons of God" (a term used for angels every other time it appears in the Hebrew Scriptures) find human women attractive, and defect from Heaven to marry them and settle down on Earth. Considering that the human society at this time was supposedly extremely violent and barbaric,[8] it would be astonishing for these angels to prefer it to the sublime perfection of Heaven, if Heaven were such a flawless Utopia. Nor can we argue that the angels preferred Earth because they wanted to be savages among savages. The act of settling down, marrying, and raising children (as opposed to just running around, raping and murdering at will) presupposes a desire for stable, civilized life.

In the Book of Revelation, we are told that after Armageddon, Satan will be confined for a thousand years, and Yahweh/Jesus will rule the Earth directly. At the end of that time, Satan will be released. This causes the entire world to rise in revolution, so that "the camp of the saints" is surrounded at Jerusalem, at which point Yahweh rains fire down from Heaven to destroy the rebels. This is actually quite an astonishing claim, coming as it does from one of Yahweh's own propagandists, as a prediction. After a thousand years of Jesus' "perfect" governance, the governed can be expected to rise in rebellion at the first opportunity? Really? These people would know that Satan had been defeated before, yet they rush to join him as soon as he's freed, and follow him into battle. Such a scenario can only be the desperate act of an oppressed people willing to seize any chance for freedom.

Yawheh's own propagandists are repeatedly forced to admit that his "kingdom" is far from glorious and blissful. Angels and humans with direct experience of Yahweh his regime rebel, and are expected (predicted) to rebel, whenever the opportunity presents itself. Putting all this together, the time to fight is now, when we have a global technological civilization armed with advanced weaponry, when the "spiritual warfare" against other spiritual "principalities and powers in heavenly places" (i.e., potential allies for humanity) still rages, and Yahweh has yet to subdue an angelic insurgency, despite his forces outnumbering the rebels two to one.

Another thing to consider is the fact that now there would be many thousands, if not millions of people currently in Heaven who have experience of living in free societies (i.e., Western Christians who lived from the decades prior to the American Revolution[9] to the most recently dead). While these people surely entered Heaven[10] as loyal followers of Yahweh, the angels were also initially loyal, and they never knew freedom. In a war against Yahweh, we should not dismiss the possibility of an allied fifth column within Heaven itself.

Jesus attempts to rebut the hypothesis that he casts out demons by Satanic power on the basis that such would represent division within Satan's kingdom, implying that such division does not exist. Of course, he does not address the possibility that he and Satan could have been running a con together...

Also, Yahweh's orbital surveillance is not as good as ours. He was unaware of a massive building project until after it was well underway, and had to "come down" and have a look before he realized the true magnitude of the threat.

The amazing long lifespans of the patriarchs, and the secure, division-of-labor society that would have to exist for Noah to be able to build his ark provide strong evidence against the notion of a Hobbesian war of all against all. Also, Jesus uses the antediluvian world just before the Flood as an example of normalcy--people marrying and giving in marriage, etc., then sudden judgment came upon them.

If they did--that might also not happen until after the Last Judgment. On the other hand Paul did claim that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," and Jesus told the penitent thief that "today, you will be with me in Paradise."

Well, we both are speculating here. I think a god that wanted worshipers would make us love it. We would be designed to love it.

We do not all love Yahweh. Neither do his own angels. Therefore, Yahweh is not "the" Creator. The creation account of Genesis 1 uses the plural of "god" (Elohim). They speak and act in the plural ("Let us make man in our image"). They create simply and majestically: they speak, and their creations appear. They create men and women simultaneously, and give them a blessing (no commands or threatened punishments). In Chapter 2 (starting with verse 4, where the actual dividing line between the two accounts is noticeable), Yahweh is like a junior understudy by comparison. The Earth, its climate, and plants appear to pre-exist (2:5-6). He sculpts a man from dirt, then breathes life into it. He plants a local garden (v.8--really? Did he use garden tools?), and puts the man in it. His misogyny is so complete that he doesn't decide to create a woman until after Adam fails to find a compatible mate among the animals. Then, his method is a clumsy surgery/cloning operation (?!). So, where the other gods (or all gods combining their powers) can create by speaking things into being, Yahweh has to work as a gardener, sculptor, and surgeon to fumble his way through a local creative effort. Later we learn that his writ is limited, as Cain can "go out from the presence of the Lord" and build a city, despite having been told by Yahweh that the ground would yield him no produce. In other words, Cain escaped Yahweh's punishment by crossing a boundary.

Throughout the Bible, Yahweh evinces a striking degree of ignorance about the actual shape and size of the Cosmos, which would not be the case if he were its Creator.

Logged

"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

I would not, Christianity is a flawed one, there are so many contradictions their real intentions and beliefs could be hidden by them, why? Jesus is the son of someone that demands millions of people to die. Jesus died on the crucifix for the sins of humanity, but how would that change anything? He rose up from the dead (according to the Bible), was that to people believe in the savior? He died on a crucifix then rose and many believed in the savior. Isn't that forcing beliefs upon people? Maybe people began to believe on their own. There is no reason to follow him anyway. To go to Heaven? "Believe in me...or ELSE!

« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 06:53:00 AM by Samuelxcs »

Logged

"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."-Thomas Szasz

If the god described in the bible were proven to exist, I would indeed believe know that he existed... I would NOT however fall to my knees in worship. I would work to oppose him with all my finite power, however pathetic such an attempt might ultimately prove to be. I would rather die fighting such a tyrant than simply drop to me knees in terror at his might and capricious rage. I would rather suffer for eternity for the sake of my own people than to ever kneel before a maniacal, narcissistic, and petulant being as is described in the bible.

And you would suffer eternally for no reason because you would know that all your efforts were totally pointless.

No, not for "no reason"... I would do it on the basis of my convictions and principles. Pure and simple. If my will is my own then my efforts would have to have at least SOME total impact, no matter how insignificant... and it is the effort that truly matters. If for no other reason than to show others that this being CAN be resisted, and SHOULD be resisted. Revolutions always start with small efforts.

Logged

"Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God? You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen."

I honestly have to wonder, Fungusdrool. How is it possible that you can be surpised that there are actually people who are willing to stand by their own convictions? Especially considering human history and nature. Humans have suffered through all manner of torments, and been afraid that they would suffer many more, and still upheld their beliefs all throughout history.

You honestly can't conceive of the fact that some people might care more about their principles than the punishment they may receive for them.

That's sad......and I don't actually mean that as some snarky/smart ass comment. I mean it. It really is something that I find deeply saddening. Is there really nothing in the world that you care about that much? Not even your own principles?

Yahweh is clearly a lousy strategist and tactician... Yahweh's Big Battle Plan was to appear at Megiddo with a massed cavalry force, to face Roman legions and cavalry. If he were to employ such tactics today, against modern armored infantry, air power, precision-guided munitions, drone aircraft, and nuclear weapons, he and his minions would be massacred.

I have an even better version, Kcrady.

On April 2, 2001, Yahweh's forces made their move. A few friends and I[1] lured the zombies into a dead end in Megiddo. We forced them to drop their weapons; sent all the zombies home to their graves; and arrested the ringleaders and shipped them off to the regional courts at Proxima Centauri to stand trial on charges of attempted geocide. No casualties on either side.

Oh, and Judgment Day has been cancelled and replaced by a potluck supper.