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It came from the PUG: When good players go bad!

This week’s pick up group story is a sad tale of miscommunication, failure on behalf of everyone involved (including yours truly) to act like grown ups, and some inventive griefing where the responsible player forgot just one key thing …

The scene is Old Kingdom. I was tanking. The group was itching to move quickly so I pulled the first few groups quite fast. They didn’t handle it well. Now, in my opinion, if you yell at the tank to go go go at the start of an instance, it implies that you don’t want to wait around for marks or to have the kill order explained.

A couple of characters died – but not me because I know:

the kill order

the reasons for that kill order

how to use spell reflect and interrupt to not be killed by spellflingers

And also I have overpowered gear and good tanking cooldowns.

So really, I’m not going to die. You however, over-eager dps who think it’s a great idea to open up as soon as more than two monsters converge in the same place, are not so lucky. In any case, after this, I decided to take the pulls a bit more carefully and mark as appropriate. It was my mistake, I’d assumed the group was more familiar with the instance than they really were.

This was not fast enough for some of the crew who started to run ahead and pull anyway. I asked them to stop doing that. And all hell was unleashed in party chat. It … was unpleasant.

We were heading towards the blood elf boss when someone else yelled gogogo again. I sat down, just to annoy them, and said, “afk 2 mins to get tea.” I wasn’t actually afk which is just as well because at this point the rogue stealthed up to the boss, pulled it, and used tricks of the trade to misdirect it onto me. So the boss comes running down the ramp and hits me a couple of times.

I think, “You have got to be kidding me,” and leave the instance mid-fight. After which I put them on ignore. Presumably they wiped, although the rogue may have been able to vanish.

People who just lose their senses

I think some players just have poor impulse control, because as soon as anything goes a way they don’t like, all common sense gets thrown out of the window. Yes, congratulations, you can use your class abilities to be really really annoying. But what exactly is the point?

Maybe for a lot of us, the griefer is not hiding very far beneath the surface at all and all it takes is a situation in which we feel powerless to bring out the crazy. (i.e. I think he flipped because he couldn’t bear the thought that he might have to wait for me. Or just go along with my request to stop pulling.)

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30 thoughts on “It came from the PUG: When good players go bad!”

Greater anonymity through the bigger realm pool. Some people might even think they are connected to all WoW servers this way. The greater internet fuckwad theory kicks in and people behave like total idiots.

It happens in really massive games with serverclusters like Guild Wars and STO: You might meet some people a lot randomly, but there are always new people and too many to remember.

There are some advantages of the server model (I still like the one world servercluster model more) – the pool of people you can run dungeons with is smaller (still huge, but there is a higher chance to meet again) and you cannot behave like that all the time or you might have trouble finding groups in future.

Basically, you are playing with the potential neighbourhood, through the dungeon finder you play with complete strangers.

Usually when I’m on one of my DDs and the tank neither marks nor explains any kill order I just assume that means “No matter what or how many target(s) you guys hit, I can manage that”. On the other hand you won’t catch me uttering “gogogo” or something. For me “gogogo” directly translates to “I don’t care that you are a human being, behave like a nice little NPC and give me my two frost badges asap!”, which sounds suspiciously like an insult to me. I don’t insult people without reason..and I can get quite malicious if someone tries that on me.

So good job on leaving them to die! I got so sick of those X-Realm runs that some days ago I just snapped and started searching for people on my own realm. I did this three days in a row and oh joyous wonder, it is great! It seems like everyone who is not nice seems to avoid people from their own server (those could somehow retaliate) while those that do search exclusively on their own realm have learned to appreciate the nice and chatty atmosphere. So far even the displayed skill was above what you meet X-Realm..

While not marking, I treat DPS as adults. I expect them to do the right descisions or live/die with the false ones.
I don’t meet those annoying players very often. Last time I left. Sometimes I think about votekicking those subjects right before the badge-boss.

I agree, it doesn’t take alot for a group to “lose their mind” collectively in the random tool. I’ve given up on tanking for randoms myself, I don’t have the patience for it.

Kudos to the tank in the CoS run yesterday though. We had one person leave at the start, then his replacement helped on the first 2 mobs, then went into a corner and /afk (and died when eventually a new group spawned on top of him). We were all annoyed by that, the tank threatened to leave, but decided to stick with us in the end. I confess I was also tempted to leave (rather leave then carry an afk-er), but I was queued with a friend, so I didnt want to leave my friend.

The ability to set an appropriate pace through the instance is a core tanking skill. There’s more stress on it now because we’ve done the content a gazillion times before and most people are really really just there for the badges. The appropriate pace for a heroic instance is therefore usually pretty damn fast, unless your gear is crap (which is fine – we all have to start somewhere).

Yes of course the sentiment could be expressed better, and I don’t like it when people say it to me, but sometimes (sometimes) the speaker has a point. DPSing or healing in a run with a ponderous slow tank who waits for mana between pulls or insists on looting every last mob is almost painful at times.

Appropriate pace is a subjective thing. and you know what, if I’m tanking? I WILL loot every body. it doesn’t take that long, it gives me a chance to have my CD’s come up and yes, I’m that greedy. this habit of looting is why I’m not broke in WoW.

also “pretty damn fast” to me personally is stressful as hell. Even as a dps. I can do it, but its not pleasant, so why should I do something that’s stressful AND unpleasant IN A GAME? SO I don’t know about you, but I assume that different people have different definition of what’s stressful and unpleasant to them and if the tank is pulling slower then my tolerance threshold? I adjust my pace to his, because personally, its not painful for me to be a little more patient. Heroics especially are extremely short. I’m already getting into a group faster then I ever did before the introduction of a lfg system. Even if the instance takes 5-10-20 minutes more then it can potentially? I’m still playing it and I’m playing it sooner and faster and will less hassle when it comes to getting a group, then in the days of sitting in trade, spamming: “dps lfg for the daily”

Thing is, it’s easy to think of examples where everyone would be perfectly justified in telling the tank to pick up the pace.

I guess people just have to insert their own experiences.

I’ve run on dps/healers with tanks who pulled instances so fast that it just wasn’t fun for me. I don’t like to be rushed so much that I can’t even loot. But I’m sure other people would be thrilled to get through Gundrak in 5 mins.

But for what it’s worth, I’m not that slow. I keep a pretty steady pace and I know where I’m comfortable with pulling a few groups at once. I just don’t like being hassled to go crazy fast.

The problem is: Most people don’t play good enough to be able to judge what is enough and what is too much. A good tank usually knows quite well how much of a beating he can take. In my case (fixed tank-healer team) the tank even knows what his healer can fix and when things go downhill. So you pull a first group, a second group, a third group, meanwhile have an eye back to save that one DD who started focusing a single mob of the first group and then some other DD decides that he knows better than you how to do this and adds two more groups on purpose. Even if you survive this chaos, the DD will be asked exactly once to stop that before the kickvoting starts.

Rule #1: If you want to set the pace, roll a tank.
If you are not the tank all you can do is nicely advice him to pull a bit more. And don’t mind too much if his answer is not as nice as your tell, many tanks are very on the edge about this topic right now.

Yes, the tank has a responsibility to set the pace, and when the group can’t handle a fast pace, it is the tank’s responsibility to slow it down to a pace they can actually handle, as spinks did here.

I don’t have a problem with people who want to go fast, I have a problem with people who want to be *carried* fast. If you want me to chain pull and pull multiple groups, then you need to be aware enough of how fast runs work not to make it a total pain in the ass. Because if you make tanking a pain in the ass (by jumping on mobs before they even get to me and running ahead of me and body pulling, etc.), then I am not going to do a fast run.

It’s pretty rare that the gogogogo guy is a 5k+ dpser or good healer. It’s usually the 2k dps who’s never heard of an interrupt or dispel. If you want us to chain pull 2-3 groups at a time and not wipe, then you either need to do monster dps or the little things right. Saying “gogogogo” is not sufficient.

As a tank I don’t owe anybody a fast run. If everybody in the party knows their shit, they’ll get one. If the healer is weak, you won’t. If one dps is just weak, it won’t matter if the other two are good the run will still be pretty fast. If one dps is aggressively stupid (as most of the gogogogers are), then the run will usually be slower than if the gogogoer just afk’d.

This is what gogogogo jackasses don’t understand — it is completely counterproductive to try to prod the tank into going faster with stupid shit like pulling. It makes me and the run go *slower*, not faster. And that’s even if it doesn’t cause a wipe. If we wipe, just recovering usually takes longer than the whole dungeon if we don’t wipe, even at a pretty casual pace.

It is indeed almost always counterproductive to try and force a run to be faster. If you’re running with a good enough group, tanks are actually somewhat optional in the average heroic, but the chances of seeing such a group in a PUG is…miniscule.

When I get a “gogogo” type, I don’t quit the run, or try to retaliate some way. I simply explain in chat that yes, maybe we could get this done in 12 minutes if we act like maniacs. Or maybe we could take 30 because we have multiple stupid wipes. Instead, we’re going to take 15 minutes, not cut too many corners, and get the instance done with a minimum of fuss. It usually works, to be honest.

I can see how the situation spiralled or do I mean escalated … generally moved in a direction that was bad. But I honestly don’t see why you’re taking your share of blame for the situation. Gogogogogo-ers are the scum of Azeroth and should be put in a big hamster wheel full of poo.

There are few enough people willing to tanks pugs these days: and, as far as I’m concerned, you go at the speed the tank chooses. If that’s in a zimmerframe, one mob at a time that’s her choice. I mean either your tank is experienced in which case she’ll known precisely what she can handle or she’s not in which case rushing her is hardly going to help the situation. Equally it’s a bit harsh to expect tanks to put their repair bill on the line when they have no idea whether their healer is competent, or even awake.

Well I did kind of provoke them at the end by sitting down and talking about tea🙂 Also if I’d been a bit sharper at the start I probably could have picked those mobs up before people died, but gogogo is a surefire way to trigger my ‘whatever’ button.

If the first thing I see is gogogogo in an instance – in ANY role, I will refuse to buff the group. I’ve also contemplated leaving group if I’m tanking [taking them literally and go-go-going].

As a tank I’ve actually been cursed out by a healer for stopping for 2 seconds to ask if they needed mana when they were below 3k mana.

I don’t go into these instances thinking “hey, let me take as long as possible in here”. I want a quick, painless instance experience and I try to give that to everyone.

Tanks just really can’t win. If we’re chain pulling, it’s either too fast or not fast enough. When we adjust to the group, it’s still not good enough. If we skip optional bosses, we’re fussed at… if we do the full instance, we’re fussed at… If dps pulls for us and the group wipes, it’s our fault. If we ask the dps to stop pulling or let them die because they pulled, we’re cussed out.

I try to go faster if the healer is DPSing, and slower if my health is getting really low before I get heals. I trust the healer to call out if they need to drink (unless they are completely oom of course). I pretty much ignore the DPS; if they are oom they can drink and join the fight late, if they start pulling for me I let them tank. Especially if they pull when I am OOR with my rage button on cooldown.

I have not experienced the horrors that I see reported everywhere these days, but I try to go with guild groups for randoms whenever possible. I think that buttheads are less likely to cause a problem when they find themselves in a group with 3 or 4 people from the same guild. Obviously that’s not an option for everyone.

My big fear is that the behavior that we’re seeing will ‘reverse creep’ into realm groups and raids. It’s already there (and has been, for quite some time) for VoA. I don’t want to see my guildies acting like this.

Hm. after thinking a bit about it, I figured out the following:
Nobody is more affected by a slow run than the tank himself, because every minute impacts on his playing time twice as much as on a DPS:
tank, 0min wait, 20min run -> 0min wait, 21min run: 5% impact
DPS: 20min wait, 20min run -> 20min wait, 21min run, 2.5% impact

I’d dispute your maths there. Most goers aren’t on badge farms, but looking to do their one HC for the 2 frost. Given that they’ve already invested the search time, a slow run may add proportionally less to their relative time spent, but absolutes matter too and an hour or more to do your daily can grate.

Sunk cost, not investment. And if I didn’t have the hour to sit around I wouldn’t be queueing (if I was DPS). You can do plenty of other things while you’re in the queue (dailies, farming, read a book irl).

At that moment, I’ll make sure their ride is as uncomfortable as possible.

I don’t think leaving a group because bad behavior is that bad or immature. Sticking around only teaches them they can get away with it. You could argue over less harsh punishment perhaps, but those people need some way of realizing they can’t just do anything they like. You punish the good ones in the process too, true, but if it’s (made) clear enough it’s because of intolerable behavior of one guy, he gets the blame for it. This technique works in the millitary, why not in wow.

In my guild we have a guy who writes books about human behavior, as well as motivation, etc. He said once that “how people act in wow is who they are in real life when they can get away with it.”

Given the anonimity that comes from X-realm instances, people feel like they can get away with a lot, therefore how people act is actually who they are. Stories like these are common, I’ve had my fair share. But in a group setting it can and usually does quickly devolve into chaos when the loudest person is the rudest.

I’d like to know if the rogue in question was one of the characters who died in one of the earlier pulls.

You’d like to think that failure early on would prompt some humility or at least caution. Oh, targets are marked, let me kill the skull instead of AoE’ing. The tank isn’t moving to the next group before this entire group is killed, okay, let’s kill this entire group.

I do not understand why psychosis sets in. It seems to me to be a matter of self-preservation and thus time use. Especially as dps, it’s not like I’m going to get right into another group if I drop or cause this group to break-up.

If you mark a skull they just ignore it anyway. Don’t bother. You might as well just aoe tank and deal with it, if they pull, let em. I don’t give a damn if trigger happy rogue pulls and dies because he didn’t pay attention. What’s he gonna do? Leave?

First, no taunts for out agroing. If you can out agro a bear in a mix of 245-264 gear, then frankly you must have been DPSing a target I’m not even in melee with, or you’re so overgeared that you’ll kill it without needing a tank.
Second, no taunts for pulling a mob that I didn’t pull. You want him? He’s yours, enjoy, I wish you luck in your Warlock tanking (Or in one notorious case, Healadin Tanking…). I make an exception if it’s a mis-pull (They happen) or if the healer now has agro (Assuming it wasn’t their fault).

In essence, it’s very much egotistical, but having a tank geared like yourself tank their instance is a privilage. If they’d rather have a go and have you leave, stuff them.

I haven’t had the pleasure of running into complete jerks just yet doing random dungeons…but I’m sure it will happen. If I /ignore them (and they are on another server) will I ever be put into /lfd with them again?

The great thing about the /ignore function is that it will ensure that the random dungeon finder never groups you with that person again, just make sure if it is someone on another server to use /ignore name-server