I don't mean to poke and prod, but the entire 80/10/10 book is based in and references numerous scientific materials.

Can anyone think of a natural food source besides fruits vegetables, nuts and seeds, that taste good and are digestible in their whole, fresh, ripe, raw state?

Every other creature on the planet adheres to their species specific diet. The creature that anatomically and physiologically most closely matches our make-up is the bonobo chimpanzee; whose diet is composed of fruits and vegetables. Until 1950, the encyclopedia Britannica correctly classified the human as frugivores, as we are classified as anthropoid primates.

If anyone has questions or discrepancies with the diet, I urge you to be specific and to inquire for scientific responses. I can do my best to respond accordingly. If it is above my head, I will directly as Dr. Doug Graham for you. Or you could ask him at vegsource.com/talk/raw

I truly want to be doing the best thing for myself, I think we all do. Let's work together to find out the best program. I don't want to be following a diet that doesn't work, but I still haven't been given any legitimate reason not to follow a program that is giving me all the results I desired and more that I never thought of. I appreciate your help in this endeavor, family.

I don't mean to poke and prod, but the entire 80/10/10 book is based in and references numerous scientific materials.

The one issue I have with a lot of raw foods "science" is that a lot of the "facts" are taken from context in regard to what other species eat or are often bits that are hand-picked to suit the argument while ignoring things that can poke holes in the theories. But, that's the same for most everything that tries to promote itself as being better than other similar programs. I'm just not sold on a lot of raw idealism because it's no more infallible than other diets that make claims that aren't universally true.

rawsomehealth wrote:

Every other creature on the planet adheres to their species specific diet. The creature that anatomically and physiologically most closely matches our make-up is the bonobo chimpanzee; whose diet is composed of fruits and vegetables. Until 1950, the encyclopedia Britannica correctly classified the human as frugivores, as we are classified as anthropoid primates.

Again, my problem with the "science" being that we truly can't compare ourselves perfectly to that which we're closest to species-wise. No matter how similar many factors are between ourselves and chimpanzees may be, we're still two entirely different creatures, so that's why I'm not big on much of the raw hullaballo that insists we need to share the exact same diet without exception for optimal health. And, one argument that always makes things more interesting is the notion that, if we begin to say we're so close to chimpanzees that we need to follow their lead dietary-wise, where do we draw the line for saying that it simultaneously is not acceptable to perform animal testing on them? I mean, if we're so close to each other physically that we need to adopt their mode of eating because we're that similar, it would carry over to the pro-vivisection argument quite well, something I'm not keen on agreeing with either. It's difficult to separate the two when people make every effort to draw parallels diet-wise, but then want to change the game when it comes to medical research.

Not to mention the low protein and low fat aspect of 80/10/10 unfortunately does not lend itself to the goals of everyone - if you're concerned with building the most in the way of size and strength, low protein and low fat are not ideal, general science has shown this time and time again (not to mention I've never seen/met a raw bodybuilder who truly had an amazing physique, aside from LeanAndGreen who consumed spirulina by the truckload for his protein intake and is not the typical raw guy). I've seen a few raw athletes who had very good physiques, but for someone who has an aire of pure, raw power and strength and can put up the numbers to verify it's not just for show, I'm not so sure anyone like that has existed...yet.

rawsomehealth wrote:

I truly want to be doing the best thing for myself, I think we all do. Let's work together to find out the best program. I don't want to be following a diet that doesn't work, but I still haven't been given any legitimate reason not to follow a program that is giving me all the results I desired and more that I never thought of. I appreciate your help in this endeavor, family.

Like I said, more power to those who do something like the 80/10/10 and feel great for it. I won't discourage anyone who truly and honestly feels great for changing to a diet such as that one, if it makes someone feel better and more energetic, that's awesome. That is, so long as it is actual feeling from the heart and not simply being sucked into believing that one has to stand up for their choice even if it isn't as wonderful as they'd wished it would be.

The unfortunate state I've found with many people who have gone raw or tried variations of it like 80/10/10 is that I've seen no shortage of ex-raw people who did it for some time with nearly religious fervor, but eventually did not feel great on the diets and opted to go back to adding in cooked foods again. And, many times when they were struggling with not feeling good on the diet, they caught hell from other raw enthisiasts for even questioning the diet's ability to be ideal for everyone - if they were feeling tired, they weren't eating enough bananas. If they said their healing time slowed down, it was because they drank tea in the morning. If they were looking jaundiced, it was that they needed to not wash their fruit. If their teeth turned greyish and started to have excessive decay from massive fruit intake, it was that they weren't eating the "right fruits". Just one excuse after another for so many who struggled with such diets where the community wasn't supportive of the fact that for some people, it just isn't a good idea to eat that way.

For some time during their raw phases, many of these people would have severed a limb to prove their allegiance to the diet they once held in high regard only to eventually say that they never felt as good as they wanted to believe they did while on it. Sometimes, we as people tend to put on blinders when we get into something new that we really WANT to see succeed, but it isn't always in the cards for everyone to work well on the same diet.

So, as I've said, if it truly and honestly makes someone feel better for going on a diet like 80/10/10, more power to them for making that choice. HOWEVER, I will always take issue with anyone who claims that they have a diet that's superior to all others, anything that claims to make one disease-proof, and anything that does not allow for skepticism when someone follows the program perfectly and just can't feel good while doing it. As long as one doesn't lose their common sense and ability to see things logically and rationally while trying something new, by all means, give it a shot!

_________________"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

Wow, what a night. I had such a severe drop in blood sugar last night that I could barely get out of bed to get some food down. shaking severely, so dizzy I could barely walk and sick to my stomach. It was crazy. Still shaky this morning. I guess the frustrating part is that after 4 days I have not lost ANY weight. Eating 1200-1400 cals the last 4 days with 90mins of training. I thought at least I would get a little drop out of it, but nothing. I committed to staying on this until Friday but I do not know if I can keep going. I can't even train today.

Paige, you could be eating a cooked diet and would feel those symptoms if you keep under eating by more than 1000 calories daily. There is no way you can workout or even function on a high level without supplying the necessary fuel for your cells to operate. Every cell in the body runs on glucose or fructose. You must supply enough carbohydrates to thrive. I sincerely hope you try a day of eating 2500 calories.

Thanks Kevin. Ok. I will try to do that today. I just really want to drop some weight. Although you would think that if I am undereating so badly that it would show up on the scale. That is why it is so hard for me to get my head wrapped around eating more when I can't even lose weight on what I am eating now.

I know it's counterintuitive, but undereating by a lot will not necessarily lead to weight loss. In order to lose weight you need your body to be functioning properly and well, and your symptoms are demonstrating that your body is not functioning properly. Bump up your calories by enough that you feel well again and have the energy to exercise. If your body has what it needs, but you're just a little bit--rather than way--under what you are burning, you should be able to lose weight.

Often times drastically under eating causes the body to conserve its fat and reserves, thinking that there is a shortage going on or imminent.

It is much more productive to systematically under eat by 200 calories a day. This prevents binging and allows you to maintain activity levels. 1 pound of fat = 3500 calories.

Following 811rv, while consuming sufficient calories, your body will lose water weight. This will be the major weight loss. It will allow muscle definition to show significantly. The body retains excess water to dilute toxic substances such as; salt, spices, and cooked food. Ever wonder why you get thirsty after eating these items?

Read the 80/10/10 book, follow the lifestyle, reap the rewards! My life and fitness has never been so phenomenal.

Paige,I support you! I will be on the same track very soon! I have done it, and I will do it again. Just please, don't make the same mistake as I did, not to eat enough. You have to eat 3000 cal a day. Now on the beginning it may seem strange to you to eat 20 oranges or 10 bananas as one meal, but you will get use to it. I personally eat sometimes 10 bananas for breakfast, and I am not on 811 diet anymore. I simply love it! BUT, maybe you can try to eat more often. Like, eat 5 bananas now, and in 3 hours eat another 5 bananas. I hear Michael Arnstein, the 811 marathon runner, he prefers eating all day many times, each time a fruit or two, rather then eating 3 big meals. I incline to that too. I will start 811 again soon, so I am looking forward to reading this thread!PS: Leave oils out, just use whole nuts and seeds in the evening, as prescribed in the 811. And don't mess with unripe citruses, they are bomb to stomach in big quantities. You can eat orange or two when unripe, but trying to eat 20 of them is a disaster. But if you have really ripe and sweet ones (no sour taste AT ALL!), it's heaven:))))))

Thanks Vege. Tell me what you use on your salad/lettuce for "dressing"? I just can't get down a bunch of lettuce without something on it. Any suggestions?

Really? I enjoy eating ingredients one by one: I eat plain lettuce, then I cut pepper adn eat it, then I have tomato, etc...So, basically, no dressing needed. But, I know interesting dressing made from thinly blended soaked sunflowers seeds, lemon juice and dill. You can add some salt, but it is not according to 811...I know many 811 people just blend a tomato with something like orange, mango, dates, etc and then use it as a dressing.Are you a member of "30 bananas a day" community? Go there and you will find bunch of answers and people willing to answer your questions about 811 http://www.30bananasaday.com

Don't know if I can keep going with this. Still really miserable, headaches, dizzy and sick feeling. Couldn't sleep. Had to get up and eat something in the middle of the night. Got up to 2000-2200 cals yesterday. About a 1000 more than I had been doing. Cut out the flax oil yesterday too. Tried to get through my leg workout this morning and could only do some of it, 5 sets each of ball squat, leg ext., leg curl, butterfly squats and deadlifts, all much lighter weights and could not do my usual lunges. No cardio either. If this goes on another day I think I am going to have to throw in the towel.

Don't know if I can keep going with this. Still really miserable, headaches, dizzy and sick feeling. Couldn't sleep. Had to get up and eat something in the middle of the night. Got up to 2000-2200 cals yesterday. About a 1000 more than I had been doing. Cut out the flax oil yesterday too. Tried to get through my leg workout this morning and could only do some of it, 5 sets each of ball squat, leg ext., leg curl, butterfly squats and deadlifts, all much lighter weights and could not do my usual lunges. No cardio either. If this goes on another day I think I am going to have to throw in the towel.

I didn't have those symptoms on 811, although I heard everybody has it, and they say it is "detox"... How about not doing the 811 all the way at once? Maybe you could have fruity breakfast and lunch, and then have some steamed potato, carrots, parsley root, sweet potato, etc. in the evening, along with some fats? I know a natural doctor here and she actually recommends this way of eating, at least in the beginning of a raw food journey. She says, it is good that we have some cooked food in the evening to put us to sleep.If you feel so crapy, I think you should stop. I can't give you much advice further, since I didn't have "detox" symptoms at all, when on this diet. I actually felt energized all the time and started to do sports for the first time in my life. That is when I stared to do push ups, pull ups, etc. and soon after that I was in the gym for the first time. The only thing I didn't like is that I became very thin, but I will try to do 811 again in a month or two, trying to keep my weight normal. We'll see how this will turn ut. I'll definitely post here my experience.Don't do it if you don't feel good at all. Maybe it is not the right time. I don't know what your diet looked like before 811 (any junk food in large quantities?). Some suggest fasting before going 811... But I don't think that would do you good now, since you feel hungry and depressed. Maybe give it another try in couple of months again?All best!

I think I am just going to focus on whole foods right now. As Jack LaLanne said it "if man made it don't eat it". although I am going to stay away from fats. I do like that whole foods in general seem to regular appetite and keep me from binge eating. I am also going to work on eating an adequate number of calories. I think the low cals have hindered my progress and also set me up to overeat on days.

The 80/10/10 diet gave me tremendous energy for my work outs. I was on it for like 2 months. I got up, ate 2 melons, then 15 minutes later I was on the bar doing pull ups and rotations around it for about 30 mins, then I jogged for 5 kms (about 3 miles), then I came back, showered, ate fruit (water melons, pears, grapes) and I was feeling wonderful. Then I did martial arts in the evening.I am currently not on it because the summer is over and with it my supply of fresh fruit and vegetables (coming from our family farm). I cannot afford to regularly buy so much fruit and I have too many V6s and Italian cars (from the 90ies) in my head right now but with some luck I'll be back to the 80/10/10 diet way before the summer comes (driving a V6 of course!). However, I am trying to stay as close as possible to fruitarianism. I'm not sure if I'm going to quit the tribulus tea though (or tea in general)So the 80/10/10 diet has worked for me:)The sweeter the fruit, the better. Pears, melons, watermelons, grapes, bananas, pomegranates (godly taste!), figs, peaches and fruit like that worked good for me combined with rich salads and some nuts. Apples are delicious and very rich in vitamins but in my experience they cannot be relied upon to satisfy hunger.As to the dressing of the salads, you could put some lemon juice (freshly squeezed) and nuts, maybe some avocado (although I'm not sure if Dr Graham recommends avocado).The only disadvantage is that you pee more often and that is not very compatible with a sedentary life but the consequences of a sedentary life are incompatible with good health so that is not so bad.Congratulations for the courage to try it, Paige:) The beginning is really hard, sometimes impossible at once. Don't give up. Work on it step by step. We really were not born with stoves on our backs. Good luck and all the best to you:)

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