Alfie wants to play

OR...trade Kindl, and don't sign Alfie and give those spots to kids with dynamic skill sets.

I know I'm probably the only one, but I think with Dats, Z, Weiss, and Helm returning, plus the growth of the kids, we probably don't need Alfie's 50 pts. But what we definitely need is to be harder to play against. And one of the best ways to do that, IMO, is to put Jurco, Mantha, Sproul, and possibly Marchenko in the lineup full time.

Will they make mistakes? Sure. But so will 42 year old dudes who can't keep up. At least these guys will be hard for other teams to deal with.

I’m just trying to figure out what Holland will do. Holland would try and move Kindl to make room for Alfredsson. No question IMO.

But yes, I agree with what you’re saying.

I'm fine with that also, but I would have rather just not signed Quincey at all. Not sure how much of a market there is for Kindl and judging by recent comments, the Wings don't intend to play any of the kids on defense, so Kindl hypothetically still has a spot.

Kindl’s still the easiest guy to move.

Based on his comments, I get the sense that Babcock is dying to have either Marchenko, Ouellet, Sproul, or Backman on this team next year. One of those guys will probably play well enough in camp to make Kindl expendable once and for all.

I'm on the fence about whether I want Alfredsson back or not. I think he could be a great asset to the team if healthy, but the key is can he be healthy for 70+ games? I'm not so sure. However, I'm 100% sure if Alfie feels that he has enough left in the ol' tank for one more season, he will be resigned.

Cap space won't be an issue with a little over $8M remaining. I doubt that it would cost any more than $4M to resign both Tatar and DeKeyser, and I think Alfie would sign somewhere around $2-3M range.

A roster spot won't be an issue either because no matter how you slice it, Alfie is an upgrade over a lot of players on the roster. If Alfredsson plays, a player like Andersson is easily expendable, cutting the roster back down to 23.

Another option, although very unpopular with most people, still very likely, is to send Jurco back down to Grand Rapids. I think most people know how I feel about Jurco, he is one of my favorite prospects, but I don't think playing another year in the American League would be the worst thing for him. I would certainly rather see him sent down to start the season, than to lose Callahan to another team on waivers.

No matter how the rest of this offseason shakes out, I think most people would agree that a couple players could easily be shed off the roster, namely Andersson and Kindl...

If Alfie doesn't come back we will have lost two 50 point players (Legwand, Alfredsson) and replaced them with Dan Cleary. When you look at it that way, we need Alfie back. I doubt Jurco, if he plays, hits 50. That's 100 points to be replaced. Some of it will be made up by a healthy Zetterberg and Datsyuk, but its hard to say we are better without Alfredsson.

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If Alfie doesn't come back we will have lost two 50 point players (Legwand, Alfredsson) and replaced them with Dan Cleary. When you look at it that way, we need Alfie back. I doubt Jurco, if he plays, hits 50. That's 100 points to be replaced. Some of it will be made up by a healthy Zetterberg and Datsyuk, but its hard to say we are better without Alfredsson.

Maybe we'd be better, maybe we wouldn't. But it's not like we were good with Alfredsson, so why not try something different? Sometimes it's all about the team dynamic. Who ever believed Columbus would be a better offensive (and defensive team) without Nash, Carter, Gaborik, or Horton (injured)? On paper it seems like it's crazy, but the team might actually be better in the long run.

Also, you're fudging the numbers to make a point. Legwand played 21 games for us and contributed 11 pts. I get that he was a 50 pt. guy on the season, and so technically we'd have to "replace him". But you make it seem like we're losing a guy who contributed 50 pts. to our team, which he didn't. If anything, you'd have to replace his defense and 11 pts., as anything more than that rested on future potential that was lost the minute they decided not to re-sign him.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

I think alfy should be brought back, but I also really don't want to see jurco in the minors as I think he is more than ready to be a regular in the show as evident by his season last year.

We have datsyuk, zetterberg, franzen, nyquist, Tatar, Weiss, sheahan, helm, Abby, cleary, glendening, Anderson, miller, (callahan). That's 14 already without alfy and jurco. I'm assuming Callahan gets waived which means were at 13 without them, I also hope Anderson is traded which means we could have room for both alfy and jurco on the team.

Not a bad forward group at all IMO. If an injury occurs to anyone in the top 9 that gives us roster space to call someone up it should be pulks or mantha getting the call up. If anyone gets hurt on the 4th line it should be either miller or cleary filling in there

If Alfie doesn't come back we will have lost two 50 point players (Legwand, Alfredsson) and replaced them with Dan Cleary. When you look at it that way, we need Alfie back. I doubt Jurco, if he plays, hits 50. That's 100 points to be replaced. Some of it will be made up by a healthy Zetterberg and Datsyuk, but its hard to say we are better without Alfredsson.

Maybe we'd be better, maybe we wouldn't. But it's not like we were good with Alfredsson, so why not try something different? Sometimes it's all about the team dynamic. Who ever believed Columbus would be a better offensive (and defensive team) without Nash, Carter, Gaborik, or Horton (injured)? On paper it seems like it's crazy, but the team might actually be better in the long run.

Also, you're fudging the numbers to make a point. Legwand played 21 games for us and contributed 11 pts. I get that he was a 50 pt. guy on the season, and so technically we'd have to "replace him". But you make it seem like we're losing a guy who contributed 50 pts. to our team, which he didn't. If anything, you'd have to replace his defense and 11 pts., as anything more than that rested on future potential that was lost the minute they decided not to re-sign him.

I think you're overthinking it. Legwand is a 45-50 point player. He continued this consistency with us. No matter how few games he played, that's 45-50 points that could have helped us that now won't.

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I think you're overthinking it. Legwand is a 45-50 point player. He continued this consistency with us. No matter how few games he played, that's 45-50 points that could have helped us that now won't. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

40 of his points helped Nashville, not us. I'd agree they Legwand "could have helped", but that's not what you said. You said we had to replace his 50 pts. Which we don't. We never counted on, or got 50 pts. from David Legwand. So we wouldn't have to replace them.

But, as I said, his 50 pts. "could have helped" had we re-signed him. That's sort of a platitude though.

Edit: And it should be noted that if we're talking about replacing Legwand's 50 point potential, then you can rest assured we already have as Stephen Weiss will be back and he's got 50 point potential too.

Edited by kipwinger, 22 July 2014 - 11:53 AM.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

Maybe we'd be better, maybe we wouldn't. But it's not like we were good with Alfredsson, so why not try something different? Sometimes it's all about the team dynamic. Who ever believed Columbus would be a better offensive (and defensive team) without Nash, Carter, Gaborik, or Horton (injured)? On paper it seems like it's crazy, but the team might actually be better in the long run.

Man, that's just sooo not on Alfredsson, at all. The team being "good" or not doesn't come down to one veteran player. He lead the team in scoring - a team that was without it's two best offensive players for a little under half the season, and was probably the most consistent scoring forward on the team throughout the season. He gives the team another look at the PP, and unlike Hudler, Samuelsson, etc. he can actually hold the blueline.

Holland has just left this stale taste in everyone's mouths when it comes to signing veterans. I can't stand signing vets for the sake of it - but this is one of the few vets in recent memory that Kenny should re-sign. For his production, it was without a good chunk of the core offensive players on this team. He was charged with carrying a load for this team that he never should have, and he still did a solid job doing it.

Even if you don't want to consider the guy a top 6'er, he's a great insurance policy. The team stays healthy and you've got a player who can add 50 or so points, he goes down with injury and Jurco can come up. I am fully behind the idea that one of Ouellet/Sproul/Backman/Marchenko should be in Quincey's spot, and I'm also fully behind Jurco being in Cleary's, but I don't think you remove a productive, veteran player from your team for the sake of change.

Man, that's just sooo not on Alfredsson, at all. The team being "good" or not doesn't come down to one veteran player. He lead the team in scoring - a team that was without it's two best offensive players for a little under half the season, and was probably the most consistent scoring forward on the team throughout the season. He gives the team another look at the PP, and unlike Hudler, Samuelsson, etc. he can actually hold the blueline.

Holland has just left this stale taste in everyone's mouths when it comes to signing veterans. I can't stand signing vets for the sake of it - but this is one of the few vets in recent memory that Kenny should re-sign. For his production, it was without a good chunk of the core offensive players on this team. He was charged with carrying a load for this team that he never should have, and he still did a solid job doing it.

Even if you don't want to consider the guy a top 6'er, he's a great insurance policy. The team stays healthy and you've got a player who can add 50 or so points, he goes down with injury and Jurco can come up. I am fully behind the idea that one of Ouellet/Sproul/Backman/Marchenko should be in Quincey's spot, and I'm also fully behind Jurco being in Cleary's, but I don't think you remove a productive, veteran player from your team for the sake of change.

I agree, it's not his fault. But it would be stupid to bring back the EXACT same roster as a year ago, and since he doesn't have a contract, it seems like Alfie would be the reasonable one (at this point) to leave out.

I, like everyone else, wish it would have been someone else (Cleary) but it's too late for that.

But, like I said, I'm of the opinion that we'd be better without him. Not because he's a bad player...he isn't. He produced well. I just think that a young guy with size and drive scoring 35 points makes the team harder to play against than an old guy scoring 45 points. If hockey were only about points, then you'd just pencil your 12 highest producing forwards from the previous year into the lineup. But there's some reason to believe that sacrificing a little by way of points, might make you a better team overall. I've got faith that in a full season Jurco could put up 30-40 points and be WAY harder to play against than Alfie. That's all.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

I agree, it's not his fault. But it would be stupid to bring back the EXACT same roster as a year ago, and since he doesn't have a contract, it seems like Alfie would be the reasonable one (at this point) to leave out.

I, like everyone else, wish it would have been someone else (Cleary) but it's too late for that.

But, like I said, I'm of the opinion that we'd be better without him. Not because he's a bad player...he isn't. He produced well. I just think that a young guy with size and drive scoring 35 points makes the team harder to play against than an old guy scoring 45 points. If hockey were only about points, then you'd just pencil your 12 highest producing forwards from the previous year into the lineup. But there's some reason to believe that sacrificing a little by way of points, might make you a better team overall. I've got faith that in a full season Jurco could put up 30-40 points and be WAY harder to play against than Alfie. That's all.

I agree that jurco would be a lot harder to play against and may very well be more productive in terms of a well rounded game to the team than alfy, but in reality they should both be on the roster. Alfy playing with the eurotwins and jurco playing with sheahan and Tatar

I agree that jurco would be a lot harder to play against and may very well be more productive in terms of a well rounded game to the team than alfy, but in reality they should both be on the roster. Alfy playing with the eurotwins and jurco playing with sheahan and Tatar

I don't know though. I mean, I hear what you're saying. But I guess my whole point is that I think we need a whole different look up front. Personally, I hate the idea of Alfie with Dats and Z. I don't think he can play that many minutes first of all. He faded fast down the stretch. But he's also a perimeter player and so are they. None of them are big or play great in the crease. They're also all getting a little old and injury prone. I definitely don't want my whole top line to come with that many question marks. Personally, I'd like to see Jurco with Dats and Z, and Mantha with Tatar and Sheahan.

Will it happen? No. And IMO we'll be worse for it.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

I don't know though. I mean, I hear what you're saying. But I guess my whole point is that I think we need a whole different look up front. Personally, I hate the idea of Alfie with Dats and Z. I don't think he can play that many minutes first of all. He faded fast down the stretch. But he's also a perimeter player and so are they. None of them are big or play great in the crease. They're also all getting a little old and injury prone. I definitely don't want my whole top line to come with that many question marks. Personally, I'd like to see Jurco with Dats and Z, and Mantha with Tatar and Sheahan.

Will it happen? No. And IMO we'll be worse for it.

I guess I agree to an extent on the fact that there is no crease crasher, but I also don't like bogging pav and z down with a guy like Abby cause he's a crease crasher.

I only remember one game in which alfy played with pav and z and that was early in the season against Colorado. They simply dominated. I believe he's a good fit for many reasons 1) he's a righty 2) has the ability to finish of the eurotwins setups 3) thinks the game on the same level as those two.

I don't think pace is a huge issue as it's not like dats and z are burners either. If he does have trouble playing those top minutes you can always move jurco, or Tatar up while moving alfy down to the 3rd line. That's my honest opinion

As a reference look at the two kids and a goat line that used to be so damn effective it didn't have a real net front presence but they were still amazing.

I think you're overthinking it. Legwand is a 45-50 point player. He continued this consistency with us. No matter how few games he played, that's 45-50 points that could have helped us that now won't. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

40 of his points helped Nashville, not us. I'd agree they Legwand "could have helped", but that's not what you said. You said we had to replace his 50 pts. Which we don't. We never counted on, or got 50 pts. from David Legwand. So we wouldn't have to replace them.

But, as I said, his 50 pts. "could have helped" had we re-signed him. That's sort of a platitude though.

Edit: And it should be noted that if we're talking about replacing Legwand's 50 point potential, then you can rest assured we already have as Stephen Weiss will be back and he's got 50 point potential too.

That's a good point about Weiss but the rest of your post is just unnecessarily critical and misguided.

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That's a good point about Weiss but the rest of your post is just unnecessarily critical and misguided. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

I just think we're miscommunicating.

Initially it sounded like you were suggesting that if we didn't resign Alfie and Legwand, we'd have to replace the 100 points they combined for last season. But that's not accurate because Legwand only scored 11 points for us, so in reality we'd only need to replace about 60 pts. (49 for Alfie and 11 for Legwand) in order to have the same offensive output as last season (roughly).

But that was just how it sounded. It's clear now that you weren't saying that, and instead are suggesting that Legwand and Alfie could potentially combine for around 100 pts. this coming season, and so if we don't resign them we'll need to replace that production. I agree, they have the potential for that. But it's a moot point because, as we both agree, Weiss will be counted on for about 50 points which would cover the loss of Legwand's 50 point potential so we'd only need to replace Alfie's points if he isn't resigned.

I'm not being "misguided or critical" dude. Just trying to make sure we're speaking the same language or else being clear about where we disagree.

Edited by kipwinger, 22 July 2014 - 01:36 PM.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

I agree, it's not his fault. But it would be stupid to bring back the EXACT same roster as a year ago, and since he doesn't have a contract, it seems like Alfie would be the reasonable one (at this point) to leave out.

I, like everyone else, wish it would have been someone else (Cleary) but it's too late for that.

I've got faith that in a full season Jurco could put up 30-40 points and be WAY harder to play against than Alfie. That's all.

While I think it would be stupid to bring back the same roster, we're already in that position, IMO. I just don't think that Alfredsson should be left out because Holland has made other boneheaded moves. I get what you're saying - plug the hole while we still can.

Part of me feels like Jurco won't be used properly, anyway. At least not until Cleary is out of the way. I think Jurco, in a year or so, will be a huge upgrade over Abdelkader in that net-front role on the top line, because he's got the skill to boot. What I don't see is him being placed in that role right now. At this point, he's battling guys on that 3rd line for time, because I don't think Babcock, etc. even considers him as a top 6 guy right now (even though I think he'd be fine on the 2nd line with two vets).

I don't know though. I mean, I hear what you're saying. But I guess my whole point is that I think we need a whole different look up front. Personally, I hate the idea of Alfie with Dats and Z. I don't think he can play that many minutes first of all. He faded fast down the stretch. But he's also a perimeter player and so are they. None of them are big or play great in the crease. They're also all getting a little old and injury prone. I definitely don't want my whole top line to come with that many question marks. Personally, I'd like to see Jurco with Dats and Z, and Mantha with Tatar and Sheahan.

Will it happen? No. And IMO we'll be worse for it.

I think every one saw him fade down the stretch, but I think that can be attributed to having to play a much larger role than expected all season. Additionally, wasn't he basically abused during the Olympics? I seem to remember him being way overplayed during the tournament. Playing him in a top 6 role would work, but I do agree that 1st line time might be a bit too much. I'd love the skill set on a Z-Dats-Alfie line, but I don't think they'd have the legs to keep it up throughout the season.

But that was just how it sounded. It's clear now that you weren't saying that, and instead are suggesting that Legwand and Alfie could potentially combine for around 100 pts. this coming season, and so if we don't resign them we'll need to replace that production. I agree, they have the potential for that. But it's a moot point because, as we both agree, Weiss will be counted on for about 50 points which would cover the loss of Legwand's 50 point potential so we'd only need to replace Alfie's points if he isn't resigned.

If we're really speaking on the potential of points, then I think just about every one on the team is going to be expected to potentially do better than they did last year. Whether it's Z, Dats, Weiss and Mule being healthier, or Nyquist and Tatar being regulars right off the bat, I think this team should see increased production across the board with the forwards.

That being said, it's almost expected that this team is going to face injuries again. I'd prefer to have as much depth as possible at this point. It sucks, but it's a reality that these forwards have a number of health issues. I still want to see guys like Nyquist, Tatar and Sheahan insulated by the veterans. Right now, for my money, I trust Alfredsson to set a better example on and off the ice than Mule or Weiss. No disrespect to Weiss, but I think the jury is still out on what he's going to bring to this team, and Mule is Mule.

I don't think, given the current state of this team, that it's going to kill them now or in the future to bring back a veteran who can contribute on a consistent basis.

While I think it would be stupid to bring back the same roster, we're already in that position, IMO. I just don't think that Alfredsson should be left out because Holland has made other boneheaded moves. I get what you're saying - plug the hole while we still can.

Part of me feels like Jurco won't be used properly, anyway. At least not until Cleary is out of the way. I think Jurco, in a year or so, will be a huge upgrade over Abdelkader in that net-front role on the top line, because he's got the skill to boot. What I don't see is him being placed in that role right now. At this point, he's battling guys on that 3rd line for time, because I don't think Babcock, etc. even considers him as a top 6 guy right now (even though I think he'd be fine on the 2nd line with two vets).

I think every one saw him fade down the stretch, but I think that can be attributed to having to play a much larger role than expected all season. Additionally, wasn't he basically abused during the Olympics? I seem to remember him being way overplayed during the tournament. Playing him in a top 6 role would work, but I do agree that 1st line time might be a bit too much. I'd love the skill set on a Z-Dats-Alfie line, but I don't think they'd have the legs to keep it up throughout the season.

If we're really speaking on the potential of points, then I think just about every one on the team is going to be expected to potentially do better than they did last year. Whether it's Z, Dats, Weiss and Mule being healthier, or Nyquist and Tatar being regulars right off the bat, I think this team should see increased production across the board with the forwards.

That being said, it's almost expected that this team is going to face injuries again. I'd prefer to have as much depth as possible at this point. It sucks, but it's a reality that these forwards have a number of health issues. I still want to see guys like Nyquist, Tatar and Sheahan insulated by the veterans. Right now, for my money, I trust Alfredsson to set a better example on and off the ice than Mule or Weiss. No disrespect to Weiss, but I think the jury is still out on what he's going to bring to this team, and Mule is Mule.

I don't think, given the current state of this team, that it's going to kill them now or in the future to bring back a veteran who can contribute on a consistent basis.

I agree with all of your points. It's just wishful thinking.

For me, at this point, it comes down to a matter of priorities. We're in a bad position one way or another, and chances are we aren't going to be too competitive this coming season. Sure, we'll make the playoffs, but that'll be it. So since we aren't (likely) going to be competitive, I'd rather try a new dynamic and get these kids some valuable experience doing it. Not just watch all our little skill guys fizzle out in the playoffs again next season when they can't get to the inside.

Bringing back vets like Alfie won't hurt us. But it doesn't really help much either. Alfie will be good in the regular season, but in the playoffs he'll play on the perimeter like the rest of our team, and we'll lose. Sure it won't be his fault and I won't blame him. But I'm tired of watching the same thing over and over. Especially now that we've got a couple of big young forwards who could help with the problem given the chance.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth and power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible. Pleasure disappoints, possibility never. And what wine is so sparkling, what so fragrant, what so intoxicating, as possibility!" - Kierkegaard

I'd take him on a one-year deal. Why not. He's a proven producer. You win - and create roster depth - with proven producers. Manage his minutes, shelter him a bit, give him some nights off.

Zetterberg Datsyuk Jurco

Franzen Weiss Nyquist

Tatar Sheahan Alfredsson

Miller Helm Abdelkader

This is actually pretty bang on in terms of what I'd love to see the line-up look like this season. In order to make it happen, though, I think they'd have to shed Andersson (for physical space up front) and Kindl (for the cap space).

The most popular choice among the Red Wings as to who would volunteer to play goalie – several Panthers did in their game – was Brendan Smith.

"He's pretty competitive and he seems to be good at everything," Justin Abdelkader said. "He'd volunteer himself."

Babcock was a bit more hesitant about Smith. "Yeah, yeah, just work on getting out of your zone," Babcock said

I'd take him on a one-year deal. Why not. He's a proven producer. You win - and create roster depth - with proven producers. Manage his minutes, shelter him a bit, give him some nights off.

Zetterberg Datsyuk Jurco

Franzen Weiss Nyquist

Tatar Sheahan Alfredsson

Miller Helm Abdelkader

This is actually pretty bang on in terms of what I'd love to see the line-up look like this season. In order to make it happen, though, I think they'd have to shed Andersson (for physical space up front) and Kindl (for the cap space).

It's hard for me to disagree with you guys. I mean, I don't hate that lineup. But I just can't help think that 3rd line spot would be perfect for Mantha. He'd get the chance to create a TON of offense with Sheahan and Tatar, AND his minutes (and zone starts) would be sheltered so there wouldn't be any chance of destroying his development by forcing him into a top six role too early.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

Yes, but the question remains...what to do with Ferraro, Callahan & Nestrasil...I do think Nest is out of exemptions as well.

I would like to see Alfie signed, or I would like to see Penner signed. So there needs to be some roster room made. Trade or waive Andersson, give Cleary his ten games and then send him to GR. But we need to address our guys out of exemptions. I know they haven't turned into gangbusters, but I would hate to lose them for nothing. Especially since I haven't even seen Nest play yet. Any way you look at it, there are two too many forwards on this team. Even with Andy and Cleary gone (GR or waived.) I guess we can only hope the 3 kids can squeak through waivers...

Must get rid of Andy and Kindl though. Promote Marchenko to be the #6 guy and keep Lashoff the #7.

On topic, I'd take Alfie for $3M NO bonuses. And give Penner $1.5M. He may be able to help the PP get better.

DAN WHATEVER YOUR f****** NAME IS CLEAR OR CLEARLY GET THE f*** OUT OF THIS TEAM BACK GO f****** LEARN TO PLAY MORON I PERSONALY DON'T GIVE A s*** THAT YR LEG IS f***ET UP, PLEASE LIIVE. ANF BABCOCK PLEASE GET READ OF OUR QUINESSSSSSYYYYY HOLLAND YOU JUST HIT THE JUCK f****** POTT!