I was reading Casada's article on Memorable turkey hunting moments part II. The paragraph about mistakes of a career rookie. He goes on to say something about a self apointed experts that probably hasent killed 2 dozen turkeys. The way I took that statement, is unless you have killed more that 2 dozen turkeys like Mr. Casada you don't rate... And that one of his idols is Archibald Rutledge who has killed over 339 turkeys...

First of all. I've been WILD turkey hunting for 16 years on public land and I've killed 20 Gobblers. And those birds were earned!!! Not givin to me on a silver platter... I know I'll never kill 200 gobblers in my life time like Mr. Casada... But I'll put one public land gobbler up against 5 of his private land birds any day!!!

Second of all... The first time I read about Rutledge. It had something to do with him killing this un-Godly amount of turkeys... Me. I call the man a poacher not a idol. I'm not going to believe for one minute that someone can kill that many turkeys and do it ethically...

I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion on what makes an "expert". I do have to agree with you about public land birds, vs private. I hunted public land in Ga, and SC for years. killed a few, but really had to work for them. now i'm hunting florida public land and learning all over again. in contrats i hunted some private in PA a few years ago with some relatives and the hunting was alomost easy. I kelled the first bird within 10 minutes of legal. My brother hunts the same land in PA and kills nice birds every year, He always declines my invites to come down south and hunt some pressured birds, makes you wonder...

> He goes on to say something about self appointed experts that probably haven't killed 2 dozen turkeys. <

Pressured-

You're taking that way too personal. That isn't Casada's idea, he's just repeating it. "The two dozen gobbler expert" is a very old parable that's been around as long as there has been turkey hunting and has been repeated by old timers for decades. I've read it in a lot of different places by a lot of different writers.

What it means is that after a hunter has taken a couple dozen toms, he starts to feel pretty confident about his abilities. But the turkeys have a way of humbling you and putting you back in your place. If you are fortunate enough to hunt turkeys for 40 years, or kill a hundred of them, you too will probably realize that you still had a lot to learn after the first 15 years or the "two dozen turkey" mark.

Jim's article was in no way meant to demean anyone's accomplishments, he doesn't roll like that. Casada goes on to describe how an experienced vet like himself and the turkey hunting pros he accompianies get whupped by the turkeys in spite of their experience. Public land birds are hard earned and you should be proud of your record. I think Jim would be the first one to tell you that.

"The joy of living is his, who has the heart to demand it." Teddy Roosevelt

1. Here in Pennsylvania, we have lots of private land, but permission to hunt that land is rarely exclusive. Most people who permit hunting on their land permit it indiscriminately, just like state game lands, state park lands, state forest lands, and national forest lands. I hunt mostly private land, but that land is pressured just as much as any public land around here. Much of it is chopped up into small parcels, and property lines are not clearly marked. When one landowner gives permission, and his 5 neighbors also give permission, that means 6 landowners have given permission to an untold number of hunters who cross borders back and forth. Private, schmivate. THAT is competition, and the gobblers on those properties are pressured gobblers.

2. I do not think that a hunter has to kill two dozen gobblers to be considered an "expert." There is no magic number of birds harvested that qualifies a person as an expert. I've passed the two dozen mark, and I have a lot to learn. There are hunters who have killed fewer than I have, and they might be better at it than I am.

The biggest key to tallying up a long string of spurs is having plenty of opportunity. Multiple tags, access to multiple states, lots of time off work -- those are the advantages that give a turkey hunter a basket of beards. The guy who hunts one state, with one tag per year can be an expert long before 24 years pass by. That's the way this everyday hunter did it for many years, and the way the majority do it.

Just 2¢ from me.

Steve

When [url="http://www.EverydayHunter.com"]"The Everyday Hunter"[/url] isn't hunting, he's thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.

HI EVERYDAY HUNTER
Welcome to the forum! I have to agree with you about the part that the person who has the most oppurtunities to hunt will fill his basket with the most beards but what does that matter? I don't measure turkey hunting by the number of beards or the head count this is not what it is all about.
I hunt in Pa. and all of what you stated is true we don't have the generous limits as some other states so we just have to live with a smaller basket. I can see this entire post is heading in the wrong direction as some do. Fan Club summed up the Jim Casada statement quite clearly as Mr. Casada would not intentionaly make a offensive statement of that nature. "EXPERT" There is no such a thing in the turkey woods some may have more experience,more beards,more opportunities to hunt however that does not make him a better hunter than the rest of us and certainly not a "EXPERT". Turkey hunting is a school in which we will never graduate and this is why we keep going back. Good luck in the upcoming season maybe we might cross paths in the woods.

Fan Club, you hit the nail right on the head. Pressured Gobblers, get the chip off your shoulder. Casada didn't mean any offense, and neither did I when I used the term "twenty-bird expert" in an article in T&Th several years ago. And I got reamed out by several folks just like you, people who had killed 15 or 20 birds and who thought I was looking down my nose at them. I was not then, and I still don't now, look down my nose or denigrate the abilities of ANY turkey hunter who really gets out there and tries. Both Casada and I, and as mentioned, the many other writers and veteran turkey hunters who have referenced the "twenty-bird expert" concept over the years, meant exactly what Fan Club said: that after a hunter starts to kill some birds, he or she almost inevitably begins to get an over-inflated idea of his or her expertise. I know I did.

This phase is completely understandable and dovetails perfectly with the human psyche - we want to succeed, and when we start to do so, we tend to think we've pretty much got it figured out. This stage lasts for a few seasons, usually, and then the hunter in question gets more experience, kills more birds, and begins to realize that no matter how "good" he gets, he's always going to have a lot to learn. I know I'm a much better turkey hunter today than I was when I was a "twenty-bird expert," but you know what? I still feel like a rookie 50 times a season.

As for Archibald Rutledge's 300-odd turkeys not being ethical kills - it's apples and oranges. Mores and attitudes were far different back then - game laws were relaxed or non-existent, game management was an un-thought-of concept, and it was the way things were done. I expect thre were plenty of others who killed more birds than Rutledge, he was just the one who wrote about it. If big numbers get your goat, give Rutledge a break and save your spitballs for C.L. Jordan, the guy McIlhenny stole words from when he wrote "The Wild Turkey and its Hunting". Jordan killed over 2,000.

There's nothing to be ashamed of with your 20 birds in 15 years on public land, Pressured Gobblers. It's a record to be proud of. However, don't let it go to your head. You're not as good a turkey hunter yet as you're going to be. The birds themselves are going to see to that.

Good luck this season. I'm headed to Oklahoma tomorrow to see if I can find a dumb Rio or two.

I agree. I don't think he meant any offense to anybody. I've heard that term before by other people as well.

I've killed quite a few birds over the years too, but by no means am I any kind of expert. And probably never will be. I learn something new every time and I go out, as I'm guess so do most people, including Mr. Casada.

I Relize I may have jumped the gun... I am a little touchy sometimes when it comes to private land turkey hunting and public land turkey hunting... This is the first time I've ever heard of this 2 dozen turkey expert term... My appology's to Mr. Casada...

after reading all this i've ask myself what makes a hunter a pro i've knowen guys who can make the greatest calls but can't hunt also great shots who can't call i do'nt think numbers are important so i think we are all pros on this site we may have differnt opinons on tactics but even so we can all learn some little tidbit that might help get old tom so to me if you have a passion for hunting turkeys and love to talk about and share your knowledge i'll call you a pro