"My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

This is a discussion on "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Holdcard
What I don't understand is why training does not encompass the 4 simple rules of gun safety more completely.
I'm sure ...

What I don't understand is why training does not encompass the 4 simple rules of gun safety more completely.

I'm sure that all LEOs have been trained on the four rules of gun safety at one time or another. Unfortunately, just knowing the four rules in an intellectual sense isn't enough. The problem is if they only shoot a once or twice a year qualification, they're not going to internalize them.

When someone only has an intellectual knowledge of the four rules, they'll be safe only when they're thinking about being safe. As soon as something else takes their attention (trying to unload an unfamiliar weapon, in this case) they'll start doing all sorts of stupid stuff. Someone who shoots more often, on the other hand, is much more likely to have internalized the four rules (as long as they actually obey the four rules when they're shooting, of course). The trigger finger will go into register automatically and they'll never carelessly muzzle sweep someone, even if they've got something else on their minds.

I'm sure that all LEOs have been trained on the four rules of gun safety at one time or another. Unfortunately, just knowing the four rules in an intellectual sense isn't enough. The problem is if they only shoot a once or twice a year qualification, they're not going to internalize them.

When someone only has an intellectual knowledge of the four rules, they'll be safe only when they're thinking about being safe. As soon as something else takes their attention (trying to unload an unfamiliar weapon, in this case) they'll start doing all sorts of stupid stuff. Someone who shoots more often, on the other hand, is much more likely to have internalized the four rules (as long as they actually obey the four rules when they're shooting, of course). The trigger finger will go into register automatically and they'll never carelessly muzzle sweep someone, even if they've got something else on their minds.

I understand your logic, but I still feel that there are some things that are simply inexcusable no matter who you are or what your job title is. Pointing a firearm (one I know to be loaded) at my family is definately one of them.

Although the law probably wouldn't see it that way, the officer in this case did pose an immediate threat to not only Lima's life, but the babies as well. Isn't that the justification most of us are taught in order to get our carry permits? I think they both handled it extremely well, hat's off to both of you.

If my vehicle or I met the description of someone requiring a felony stop, drawn weapons whatever. That I could understand as long as proper procedure was followed (ie don't shoot me I'm being compliant).

Why is it that officers feel the need to play with a firearm they don't understand? is it policy, if so it needs to be changed. Why don't they just lock the thing in their car, or even hold it in a safe direction until they are satisfied that you're not a bad guy? After all, they are giving you your firearm and bullets back.

Stop an think about it, I carry extra magazines, even if they unload my firearm, I can reload it very quickly, many will hand it back with the action open, which actually decreases the amount of time it takes to reload.

As a general comment, I've had several LE encounters that were similar in terms of follow-up.

When I've had concerns about how something was handled (no, I was not the perp...heh) and brought it up with LE "management", I experienced what I'll call "sympathy without agreement". In short, great listening skills but absolutely no follow-up to correct the performance shortfall by staff. I'm beginning to see that it may be a taught supervisory skill in the profession....

I'm beginning to see that it may be a taught supervisory skill in the profession....

It is.

I can't seem to pass that class, as I'm always inserting my boot in to either my mouth or a rectum.

To me, knowing how and when to listen is important, but not as important as knowing when and how to act.

Biker

Originally Posted by Holdcard

This is exactly why LEO's scare me. I understand that not all of them are gun people, I understand that for some it's just a job and their firearm is just a tool in the box. I understand that your first stop where someone says they are armed may get your adrenaline pumping.

What I don't understand is why training does not encompass the 4 simple rules of gun safety more completely.

This is not about bashing officers, it's about safety. I can excuse a lot of things, a bad day, excitement, fear, lack of training, lack of experience, etc. I have a real problem when ANYONE points a firearm in the direction of my family or myself.

There was a post a while back saying something about why officers don't respect your permit to carry, events like this (however seldom they occur) reinforce my apprehension about LEO's.
As stated before, this is not about bashing - it's about safety for everyone involved.

Holdcard

So what would you have done in JD's situation?

If you had yelled at the officer, don't you think you would just make a tense situation worse, maybe causing the officer to have an ND? If you are trying to use this as justification to either disarm the officer or get in to a self defensive shooting with him you are barking up the wrong tree.

While his tactics may have stunk, and they did, he was still within the scope of his employment to take, and make the weapon safe. If something happened and he had an ND, then it's lawyer time. That's why they make the big bucks.

I know it's not much recourse, but the time and place to argue about tactics, procedures and what not is NOT on the side of the road with the guy that has a gun and more importantly the Badge. He thsat has the Badge and Gun on the side of the road makes the rules. The courts are for interpreting the rules, and in some cases, forcing new rules to be implemented.

I'm working on my 13th year in Law Enforcement. I've worked for several departments during that time, and never, from the basic academy on, have I had any training on the different operating systems of various weapons other than those I was issued. Maybe some department out there has it, but I've never been exposed to it. I've also never been exposed to any training on handling legally armed people.

Luckily for me (and those citizens I interact with), I'm both a gun guy and interested in the laws relating to weapons in general. If I ever find it necessary to handle someone's weapon, I'm pretty confidant that I will know how to do it safely. I'm also pretty up on laws in reference to weapons and I know that open carry is legal in my state.

I'd be willing to bet a paycheck that no one has ever posted on the internet about a negative encounter with me while they were legally armed, but I know I'm the exception when it comes to general firearms knowledge and research on the laws in my jurisdiction. I do my best to educate my co-workers, and some are much better than others.

My point is that in general the police are taught in training that only cops and bad guys are armed. In the grand scheme of things most states concealed weapons permit laws on a shall-issue basis are pretty recent developments (only 13 years in NC), and law enforcement tends to experience slow change in general. I expect the training will eventually catch up, but as of right now, in my experience, it hasn't.

Maybe an LEO can explain this

Originally Posted by dhbry232

As I've said before, if JD had been a BG with no CCW permit and concealing a weapon, he could have remained silent about any weapons in the car.

This is so obvious, I have to wonder why LEOs even bother to ask if you are armed when they do a traffic stop. The good guys will have a license, the bad guys will lie anyway; in between I suppose there will be some stupid ones who admit to a knife when they could have kept their mouthes shut.

From the outside, not in the LEOs shoes, it looks like a somewhat lame question. Maybe a better first question would be-- " are you legally carrying?" Followed by, are you armed with anything?

I bet the first question would spook an illegally armed individual into giving themselves away. They'd think they were detected and get nervous as hell.

When I was a LEO I was actually shocked to find out just how many officers didn't like guns and subsequently only handled them at the mandatory range qualifications. On a couple Police Academies, I assisted the Range Master primarily keeping a safe range and not actual instruction from me. I saw revolvers and pistols that had not been cleaned or re-lubricated since their last qualification and still had the original rounds in them.

I tried to approach this as non-confrontational as I could, offering one on one training, informal fun shoots etc but ended with telling them they were not only putting their own lives at risk but also that of their partners. There's only so much a department can do with such officers. Truth is, not every cop is a gun lover!

I live in VA. What is the law regaurding concealed carry,and the officer removing and disarming your weapon? That seems very unsafe.

As far as I can tell, there is no law stating that they can't do it, it's all encompassed in "Officer Safety" which basically states that an officer can make certain reasonable requests to insure their personal safety.