How Negativist are IEEs/ENFps?

According to Reinin dichotomies, IEEs are negativist. But it seems to me that IEEs are stereotypically cheery and optimistic, so there's quite a bit of discretion here. To the IEEs here: do you see yourself as more pessimistic?

I personally have always been a pessimist. It's just more natural for me todenote the bad aspects of things than emphasize the good ones. Do other IEEs feel the same way?

"And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahlhttp://forum.socionix.com/
It's pretty cool

According to Reinin dichotomies, IEEs are negativist. But it seems to me that IEEs are stereotypically cheery and optimistic, so there's quite a bit of discretion here. To the IEEs here: do you see yourself as more pessimistic?

I personally have always been a pessimist. It's just more natural for me todenote the bad aspects of things than emphasize the good ones. Do other IEEs feel the same way?

Negativism =/= pessimism. A negativist can be pessimistic or optimistic, and vice versa for a positivist. I see what you mean about emphasizing the bad aspects of things, but does that mean you're a pessimist/negative person overall? [That isn't sarcasm; I'm really asking.] I think maybe that does fit in w negativism in socionics terms since you are focusing on what is lacking/what still needs improvement... I do this to an extent too, but I am far from a pessimist. Anyway....

Here is the wikisocion description of negativists: 1. More inclined to solve problems in systems of things and processes.
2. "This glass is half-empty", "We need $62,000 for that project"
3. Usually more reprimanding than complimenting.
4. Socially and intellectually more mistrusting.
5. Explains what things are not (irrationals) or should not be (rationals).

I think people get the idea that negativism means pessimism from that second example in particular [and of course the root "negative," heh]. But that is not what is meant there imo. In example 2, the statement is "We need $62,000 for that project." It isn't that the negativist is being pessimistic [notice he didn't tack on, "... and we'll never get that much!"]; it's just that the negativist is focused on what is not there yet but is needed/wanted.

But even so, in those examples you posted lies "Socially an intellectually more mistrusting." That doesn't sound particularly IEE in my ears, since they are supposedly "people-persons."

"And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahlhttp://forum.socionix.com/
It's pretty cool

According to Reinin dichotomies, IEEs are negativist. But it seems to me that IEEs are stereotypically cheery and optimistic, so there's quite a bit of discretion here. To the IEEs here: do you see yourself as more pessimistic?

I personally have always been a pessimist. It's just more natural for me todenote the bad aspects of things than emphasize the good ones. Do other IEEs feel the same way?

yes, I find myself to be rather pessimistic. i look at the flaws, or how something could be better constantly. when i am with other people, i immediately see their flaws, which is why i am usually very picky about who i spend my time with...not that i think that i am better than them, i just can't stand to be around them because their flaws are so evident and grate on me so much.
i can tell you why i didn't like a movie, why i hated the food, or why i do not like an organization....
but, when something/someone impresses me i can't help but be over-joyed and ecstatic about it.

Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire

Negativism =/= pessimism. A negativist can be pessimistic or optimistic, and vice versa for a positivist. I see what you mean about emphasizing the bad aspects of things, but does that mean you're a pessimist/negative person overall? [That isn't sarcasm; I'm really asking.] I think maybe that does fit in w negativism in socionics terms since you are focusing on what is lacking/what still needs improvement... I do this to an extent too, but I am far from a pessimist. Anyway....

Here is the wikisocion description of negativists: 1. More inclined to solve problems in systems of things and processes.
2. "This glass is half-empty", "We need $62,000 for that project"
3. Usually more reprimanding than complimenting.
4. Socially and intellectually more mistrusting.
5. Explains what things are not (irrationals) or should not be (rationals).

I think people get the idea that negativism means pessimism from that second example in particular [and of course the root "negative," heh]. But that is not what is meant there imo. In example 2, the statement is "We need $62,000 for that project." It isn't that the negativist is being pessimistic [notice he didn't tack on, "... and we'll never get that much!"]; it's just that the negativist is focused on what is not there yet but is needed/wanted.

1, 4, and 5, except w/ 1 i am more inclined to solve problems within structures that involve people. family conflicts that result from a failed system of communication, the positions w/in the family, and the way in which those people that are holding the positions are executing their roles. the same goes with friendships, teachers, employer, employees, and so on.

4, yes, i have major trust issues, especially socially for some reason

I identify with that. Depending on the situation, I can take a while to talk to people. I usually have to be around someone for a while before I open up to them. If they seem to be inconsistent in their behavior towards people then I have trouble knowing where I fall in that continuum, which is a kind of mistrust. Even if I'm very friendly with someone, I don't adopt them wholly into my life until I've known them a while.

And while I enjoy learning about new ideas, etc, I'm slow to incorporate them into my life.

I thought negativism was just thinking of things in terms of what they are NOT. Which I have done before.

However, I also tend to motivate myself by thinking of the bad consequences if i dont do the required thing/task. For example, back when i used to take a lot of tests (college, grad school), I would study frantically not to get the best score, not to beat everyone, but to not fail. It was all or nothing. If i didn't study everything (which I often didn't get a chance to because of procrastination), I would go into the test feeling like I was going to fail.

But even so, in those examples you posted lies "Socially an intellectually more mistrusting." That doesn't sound particularly IEE in my ears, since they are supposedly "people-persons."

Yeah, that is something I don't get either.

I was reminded of this thread today when I re-read this:

Originally Posted by Description of SLI-IEE duality

[The Craftsman] likes The Psychologist's spirit of trust, whose permanent optimism, capability of foreseeing the future and perspectives of various undertakings, finding ways out of any problems. The Psychologist raises The Craftsman's confidence of the future, decrease his skepticism and mistrust towards everything new, not well known or not proven by practice. In addition, The Craftsman is sometimes excessively nervous and mistrustful; he exaggerates possible dangers not to mention real ones. But The Psychologist, who lives more in the future than in the present, 'calculates' everything in advance and in such moments call for caution, and at the same time calms down his partner when an alarm is false.

A person to whom it is easiest to make and break the rules of the environment.
ARISTOCRATIC, NEGATIVE, NARRATIVE & RESULTS are maximal at BETA and DELTA.
The EP feels it’s his sole personal duty to force people to face the reality of how things suck and thus encourage them to make an effort to change things. Their methods are to personally concretely threaten people and to make caricatures of the actions and statements of others.

Strong subtypes would be less negativist.

“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

Originally Posted by Gilly

You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

"And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahlhttp://forum.socionix.com/
It's pretty cool

Beside being Positivist they are also Introverted and Serious, both of which arguably are to be described in a way similar to Negativist, meaning they weaken the "positivism" of ISTps considerably. I don't generally expect ISTps to identify with Positivist for this reason.

I'm pretty negativist, but I tend to keep my most negative/pessimistic comments to myself, especially with people I don't know very well. This leads to the perception that I am very positive and optimistic, a perception I have no real interest in correcting.

I'm pretty negativist, but I tend to keep my most negative/pessimistic comments to myself, especially with people I don't know very well. This leads to the perception that I am very positive and optimistic, a perception I have no real interest in correcting.

"And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahlhttp://forum.socionix.com/
It's pretty cool

Oh yeah the other way I see the negativism in myself is, if I'm feeling nervous about something, or any sort of stress or pressure, to make myself feel better, I envision all the bad possibilities that could happen that I could think of. If the worst possible outcomes really aren't THAT terrible, the pressure will diffuse right then and there. If the bad outcomes ARE bad/terrifying/humiliating, I will compulsively try to make sure I'm extra prepared from those standpoints, so I can lessen the chances of them happening. Sometimes my preparation can't guarantee the latter, whether because it's just impossible (such as knowing everything about a subject for a test or random questions from an audience) or because I've procrastinated leaving me with inadequate time to prepare the way I would need to to feel calm. In such cases, I will be a nervous wreck going into the event.

Oh yeah the other way I see the negativism in myself is, if I'm feeling nervous about something, or any sort of stress or pressure, to make myself feel better, I envision all the bad possibilities that could happen that I could think of. If the worst possible outcomes really aren't THAT terrible, the pressure will diffuse right then and there. If the bad outcomes ARE bad/terrifying/humiliating, I will compulsively try to make sure I'm extra prepared from those standpoints, so I can lessen the chances of them happening. Sometimes my preparation can't guarantee the latter, whether because it's just impossible (such as knowing everything about a subject for a test or random questions from an audience) or because I've procrastinated leaving me with inadequate time to prepare the way I would need to to feel calm. In such cases, I will be a nervous wreck going into the event.

I saw this question being asked on MBTI forums, about the happy unhappy ENFPs
One poster brought up that this could be due to enneagram differences between ENFPs. That many ENFPs are type 7 and a few are 9s and 2s, the positive outlook types. These ENFPs seem optimistic and positive compared to ENFPs of other enneagram types like 5, 6, 3.

Actually yes. I feel like I always see the positive in things, and express it when people make statements to me like 'this weathers terrible', which you hear a lot in England, to which I normally reply 'depends what you make of it', or 'if it didn't rain you wouldn't value the sun'.

Another example would be a colleague telling me he wished he did something different. And I replied 'well, sometimes you have to do something wrong in order to learn how to do something right'.

As for socially trusting, perhaps, I'd need an example.

As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain. Reality is cruel and unforgiving, yet we must steel ourselves and secure the survival of our race through the unflinching pursuit of science and technology.- Stellaris

Negativist I thought meant you just see everything from the opposite. If something is said, you look at it from the opposite way. If someone says "it's a horrible day today" I'd think well it's not that bad look the clouds are kind of nice and there's shade. If they said "it's a beautiful day" I'd say well the clouds are covering the sun.

This is a good example of why I hate those Renin dichotomies and why I think they aren't worth diddly.

The only way I see it in myself is that I often speak in the negative instead of the positive. Like, "That's not bad!" when I mean "That's really good!" Even "no problem" instead of "sure."

This is the I diagnose negativism in IEEs. I consider IEE to be the most obviously negativistic type. Their speech is chock full of negativist constructions. You can get dizzy just counting the amount of times they say "not", "if it weren't..." "I wouldn't..." "It's not that I didn't think think you wouldn't..." etc. It can be kind of funny sometimes if you're looking for it.

According to the Ronan, IEEs are tactical (i.e. in relation to the short term, or of the moment) negativists predominantly, and perhaps therefore secondly they are strategic (i.e. in regards the long term) positivists. I think this perhaps represents the IEE mood quite well.

I find negativism in IEE's obvious to spot. For one thing I think people are often drawn to them, but they are good at using Fi to keep most people at a friendly yet "safe" distance? Maybe it's necessary when random strangers throw themselves at you lol. I see them more often using Fi to deflect people (while also being genuinely kind to them) rather than to draw them closer. Or they'll start a convo with you cuz they are bored and like people and stuff but you can still note a bit of wariness?

also I find that when IEE's describe people they (like me) tend to verbalize or hone in on negative traits or things that weird them out, even if they might not think negatively of the person overall.

and yes! speech filled with negativist constructions.

#takesanegativisttoseeanegativist

There was no place that destruction did not touch...At best it made everything feel flooded, urgent, while pushing towards decay and exposing the imminent failure of managing to maintain a form at all. Inside this was the kernel of wholeness. She could be broken down into a small, granular piece, a bit of debris jostling against other bits of debris, and in that friction there was some sense of having a boundary or a presence, and that thing-ness of the self, reduced to a basic instinctive sensation, was an almost-nothing feeling that, in its small hard knot of a numb halo, made it clear to her that you were here, you were now.

I'm a very optimistic person in that I am hopeful that things in the future will turn out well, however I'm negativistic in that I look at the negative aspects of how things are currently in order to improve things for the future. So in a sense, my negativism is fueled by my optimism and vice versa.

"Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

Hi everyone. I'm not precisely new here, but I haven't posted for a long while. I'm happy that this forum still exists. Wow.

I agree about the negativism. I write a lot, and you wouldn't believe how many times I've got to edit out negativist constructions - as if my characters don't see what's there, they first see what's missing. Needless to say, my first drafts are awful. A story is supposed to be about what's in the story, not about what's not in the story.

Hi everyone. I'm not precisely new here, but I haven't posted for a long while. I'm happy that this forum still exists. Wow.

I agree about the negativism. I write a lot, and you wouldn't believe how many times I've got to edit out negativist constructions - as if my characters don't see what's there, they first see what's missing. Needless to say, my first drafts are awful. A story is supposed to be about what's in the story, not about what's not in the story.

Yay, one of my favorite posters has returned! Welcome back schrodinger's cat!

"Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

This. I know Eliza is optimistic about my future and she tells me all the time that things will turn out well and prays for me.... but she's negativist is what she observed wasn't there. You gather this by the odd things you thin she would never pick up on. Positivist say what things you should be doing right .

Hi everyone. I'm not precisely new here, but I haven't posted for a long while. I'm happy that this forum still exists. Wow.

I agree about the negativism. I write a lot, and you wouldn't believe how many times I've got to edit out negativist constructions - as if my characters don't see what's there, they first see what's missing. Needless to say, my first drafts are awful. A story is supposed to be about what's in the story, not about what's not in the story.

Idk, a story about what's not might be not a bad read actually.

For some types of writing, journalism and acadamic writing, i think the negativism isn't a bad thing, in some circumstances stating what's not sure, or what's less obvious is preferable above stating the obvious. Also, you can use double negation (as you did in your last post) to write what IS there so...

I challenge you to write a short story using mainly negatives and or double negatives and such to describe shit!! I'll even try and give you a place to start.

"It's not that he didn't know what to do, it wasn't even that he didn't know where to go, it was just, he wasn't sure he wouldn't be turned away. Mornings had that effect on him, leaving him dazed without sense of direction in life, feeling as if the pain was lacking, but in the full knowledge that that dazed bliss would soon be over and he'd have to fight to avoid making things worse...."

"He stumbled to the bathroom and sighed at his reflection. It wasn't that he looked bad. He simply didn't look exactly like the guy that lived in his head, the guy he thought he would maybe become if it weren't for his damn laziness. If only he exercized and drove himself harder and learned how to do something vaguely Asian and self-reflective, something like yoga... only not so popular that even his own mother had heard of it, something a lot more arcane and mysterious... then maybe his face wouldn't be on the wrong side of the taut/flabby divide, his skin wouldn't be quite so sallow, and his eyes wouldn't be so sunken and tired. - Man, he hated mornings. Splashing cold water in his face, he told himself to quit being so unrealistic. LIfe was... well, it wasn't good, but it wasn't so very unbearable either. He simply just hadn't had his coffee yet."

Hi everyone. I'm not precisely new here, but I haven't posted for a long while. I'm happy that this forum still exists. Wow.

I agree about the negativism. I write a lot, and you wouldn't believe how many times I've got to edit out negativist constructions - as if my characters don't see what's there, they first see what's missing. Needless to say, my first drafts are awful. A story is supposed to be about what's in the story, not about what's not in the story.

Welcome back!

“Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
― Pablo Neruda