Right, and Yamato 2199 isn't entirely these types of female characters either (there's also at least that one token long-haired fujoushi-bait bishounen character for the ladies--and the few fudanshi--Steve pointed out, which is really kind of redundant given that Nobuteru Yuuki is doing the character designs and the existing male cast will get slashed just as easily).

That said, I'd argue that those three are just Mikimoto filling out the Macross harem of female archetypes. Misa is the bossy tsundere, Milia is the amazon, and Claudia is the cool gaijin. Let's also not forget that one of the early plans for Macross was that it would be a comedy, with a ship entirely staffed by females.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to make a perfect comparison, just illustrating that this is continuing a trend that has been around well before the term moe was even coined. I'm often surprised when I meet fans from my generation or before who are unaware of just how much it had permeated the anime subculture by the early 80s.

As I see it, much of the original Macross was about the outside universe discovering and becoming conquered by Japanese proto-moe subculture, all whilst humorously caricaturing (consciously or not) the chauvenism of the Showa era.

I also think this is all over-reaction, as so far these new characters are clearly just "additional cast" and most likely will only have limited screen time (or may even wind up as red shirts). Although I am a bit irritated by the arbitrary inclusion of a supposed psychic.

Fel9 wrote:
--------------------------
> You know I don't care really what the show looks like if it means we get some toys out of this....heck the live action film garnered nothing, so hopefully we will get some cool stuff this time round....
--------------------------

I am a bit bitter that the live action film didn't get us some kick ass models and toys of the new fighters and ship designs. What a wasted opportunity.

Steve H:
----------------------
Still think the Nurse's uniform is wrong from a practical, technical and 'internal logic' point of view.
----------------------

I can kind of see the point here, but I think the original skin tight uniforms are ridiculous to begin with, especially when talking about using them in space. That, and as Veef pointed out, it's not like there weren't short skirts in the original (albeit admittedly not as a Yamato uniform--Yuki wore that before enlisting as crew...but given she was the only female crew member--excluding the older nurse character that was cut out a couple episodes in--it's not like we can say what other female uniforms would have looked like in the original series).

veef again:
---------------------
With regards to the fujoshi, I think they are discovering they like Yamato just fine as it is.

source: [www.pixiv.net]
---------------------

I daww'd. I always did wonder about those two. Okay, maybe not, but I can't believe I haven't at least once or twice. Also casting Daisuke Ono (squee!) as Kodai-kun may not be the voice I imagined for the role, but it should definitely bring in the fangirls. He does sound dreamy in the trailer.

hillsy wrote:
---------------------
You're dealing with a property that a lot of folks grew up with and have a lot of attachment to, so ANY updates or changes are going to infuriate some.
---------------------

THIS. Personally I'm not much of a Trek fan, but I absolutely hated the reboot, while there's some old school fans who actually totally dug it. *shrug* I'm not sure this show needed to be made, and I remain skeptical, but as others have said, we HAVE had some great anime remakes such as Giant Robo, Shin Mazinger, and so forth, so I'm certainly ready to be sold.

matt alt wrote:
--------------------
Guilty as charged! I'm not interested in "mediums," I'm interested in good entertainment -- whether it's a live-action film, an anime, a stage play, a concert, or whatever grabs me. Watching something BECAUSE it's anime makes about as much sense as watching something BECAUSE it's television. Either anime creators realize that or they die slowly.
--------------------

This comment really raised my eyebrows. Not because it surprises me for Matt at all. I totally understand where he's coming from. But rather because of the statement about watching anime as a fan of the medium.

This really cuts to a core issue for me. Japanese anime itself is not a medium, it's the animated media output as filtered through the lens of Japanese culture and sub-culture. Anime is a subset of the medium of animation. This may not sound like a significant difference, but as a former animation student, it means a lot to me. When I used to write for the late Emru Townsend's FPS Magazine in the early 90s, I shared his view that anime was just part of a larger, worldwide whole that could give insight into that individual culture and unique techniques developed to meet both cultural and economic expectations.

I am an anime fan. And I mean that in the broadest Western sense. I am also an animation fan, but not as much as I once was. Since the 90s I grew tired of most commercial western animation available (but still love a number of exceptions and independent stuff...especially when it comes from odd corners of the globe). So I learned to appreciate anime genres outside my previously narrow "comfort zone" to increase my own options. Sports anime, fighting anime, anime for girls, anime for women, anime about playing Japanese games such as Go or Karuta, anime for boys, anime for men, fantasy anime, sci-fi anime, romantic comedy anime, gag anime, novel adaptations and so forth. I watch anime each season from nearly every genre avaiable at the time, and while I do drop a large fraction of the shows after that inital trial, I find that there are usually some pretty damn worthwhile series each season, often where I least expect it, too. If it has a good "hook", compelling characters and story premise, nice art, directing, and dialogue, I'm probably in, regardless of who its "meant for". If it has a lame or unlikable protagonist, a super-cliched harem plot, or other issues, I'll most likely pass.

Now that said, if I lived in Japan, I'd probably feel a bit more like Matt, at least after the novelty wore off. Much of what I enjoy is about that vicarious and often semi-romanticized experience of Japan itself. I'd probably get much of the same from watching Japanese dramas and tokusatsu, but then I'd be missing the art and character designs and mecha and so forth that I also appreciate.

So yeah, I guess I do watch stuff "because" it is anime. I sure as hell wouldn't watch a regular live action show about baseball or gambling in rigged mahjong games during the Occupation, or the supposed daily lives of Japanese high school kids. What I get out of watching often goes beyond simply being entertained, I want a bit more out of the experience than that (though I also love just being entertained too, of course, when a show just hits all the right buttons). So much so that I often pass on the latest TV and movies because I know that time would be better spent watching those damn Japanese toons.

Anyway, sorry for the digression there. But I agree with some of the younger blood here that there is more to the current crop of anime than what many of my contemporaries make out. :) But then, this is a forum more for fans of vintage stuff, not contemporary anime. There are more appropriate forums out there for that.

asterphage again:
---------------------
Yeah, and isn't this the point? I was going to say something to that effect when I saw Veef's post. If you're distressed by the changes to the new Yamato, seek out another space opera that fills the niche for you. Maybe go back and watch Legend of Galactic Heroes, or play Mass Effect, or read some Honor Harrington, or some of Iain Banks' Culture books.

Granted, those are more grimly militaristic than Yamato, but that's just where my tastes in SF adventure run, so those are the examples I think of. If the Yamato remake is dead to you, I'm sure you can seek greener pastures *somewhere*.
-------------------------

Iain M.Banks' Culture stuff isn't what I'd call militaristic, but its dammmmmn good. :) But yes, totally this. And there is a fair amount of anime SF alternatives out there. Banner of the Stars was particularly good in my opinion. Uchuu no Stellvia, anyone? I'll probably blow some of my cred if I mention the somewhat dorky, trope-laden The Girl who Leapt Through Space, but to its credit, it was filled with apparent nods to Banks and Alstair Reynolds, if you know to look for them.

I do hope, though, that Yamato can help encourage a new wave of good SF and mecha anime. Also, despite the goofy name and appearances, Mouretsu Space Pirates (directed by Nadesico and Stellvia's Satou Tatsuo) actually has some great harder SF influences going on in it and has so far been worth the watch. It's not going to win over anyone who gets cooties from moe-looking stuff, but otherwise it's been the surprise of the season thus far.

Steve H wrote:
------------------------
Can Yamato 2199 capture lightning in the bottle again? Probably not. Did we need a remake? I don't think so but many feel the thing keeping people away from Yamato is "It looks OOOOOOLLLDD" so maybe this IS needed, re-presented for a new generation and all that.

But maybe it can re-ignite passion in anime again. Yamato pretty much created the entire anime business way back when (art books, soundtracks, models sold, the entire concept of marketing a show long after the show had gone off the air, making movies based on the TV series all of that, all of it only existed in minor ways pre-Yamato. )

I am excited by this. I have great hope for it. Everything is lining up to be RIGHT just like 1992 when Giant Robo and Tekkaman Blade came out. It's not making the mistakes Tatsunoko made with the Gatchaman OAV. It's not making the mistakes Sunrise made with 08th MSteam. It's not making the mistakes Nishizaki made with Yamato 2520.
---------------------------

Completely agreed on all this.

I actually kinda dug the Gatchaman OVA, but I know what you mean. I still need to get around to Tekkaman Blade though, I have only heard good things there.

Matt Alt again:
----------------------------
And that's my biggest issue with the anime world today. How insular it has become. Anime used to be for EVERYONE! Now it's for the handful of diehards who still care, and there's no one to blame but the animation studios themselves. There hasn't been a breakthrough, mainstream hit that has swept the nation for close to two decades. (The last would be Evangelion, way back in '95.) Even the Ghibli hits are just box-office hits - they aren't sensations, they don't "change the dialog," so to speak. It's fine that every anime isn't a sensation. I love weird, offbeat, even degenerate stuff as much as the next guy. Not every film can be a mainstream sensation. But when NO anime is EVER a mainstream sensation, something's wrong.
-----------------------------

Agreed here, except the used to be for everyone part. Even in the early 70's Tezuka and others were making alternative stuff intended for mature audiences. Come the 80's and we get the advent of the OVA and more niche, adult-oriented videos like Iczer and Megazone and so forth, and TV animation also was starting to diversify more over time. If you mean "diversity" by "for everyone" though, I kind of agree. There's still lots of shows being made though for the more mainstream public, if no breakaway hits (though shows like One Piece, Naruto, Detective Conan come to mind when we talk about this and get their ratings and movies, if lacking in being anything special).

Good grief there's still a lot of discussion left, but I think this covers most of the stuff that popped out at me other than Veef's excellent post addressed to Matt and Matt's thoughtful response. What a wild thread this has turned into. I can only hope that the actual Yamato 2199 anime will continue to encourage more discussion and enthusiasm. :D

Someone commented that the skintight suit now looks more like a 'plug suit' from Evangelion and OK, sure, I guess. Matsumoto did like him the skintight leotard look.

Note that the Black Tigers are also clad in skintights.

Having a skin-tight 'second skin' has long been an accepted space suit concept in SF that reality just hasn't really tried yet. Part of the mandate is to try and be 'real', so there's likely going to be more detail thrown on things such as not just plopping a helmet on and calling that 'sealed up', we'll probably see more business done with hooking seals into place and making connections.

I wasn't wanting to think of all the new crew as cannon fodder (or red shirts if that makes more thematic sense) but it's possible. There's a fair amount of time being spent on highlighting that many are 'third shift' members as well as 'lower deck' crew- all prime to be killed in some way.

I'm convinced that the reason for twin-ponytail girl being psychic is they intend to re-introduce a removed story where a Gamilas ninja girl sneaks aboard the ship, mindfucks the crew with psychic poison about doubts and fears and loss (Okita gets accused of being a coward by the dead crews of the ships lost at Pluto for example) and outright kills crew with large throwing needles. This story survives in the manga.

> Someone commented that the skintight suit now
> looks more like a 'plug suit' from Evangelion and
> OK, sure, I guess. Matsumoto did like him the
> skintight leotard look.
>
> Note that the Black Tigers are also clad in
> skintights.
>
> Having a skin-tight 'second skin' has long been an
> accepted space suit concept in SF that reality
> just hasn't really tried yet. Part of the mandate
> is to try and be 'real', so there's likely going
> to be more detail thrown on things such as not
> just plopping a helmet on and calling that 'sealed
> up', we'll probably see more business done with
> hooking seals into place and making connections.

True, I was thinking the way the old show presented it never looked convincing to me (or that it was really trying hard to convince), but good point.

> I wasn't wanting to think of all the new crew as
> cannon fodder (or red shirts if that makes more
> thematic sense) but it's possible. There's a fair
> amount of time being spent on highlighting that
> many are 'third shift' members as well as 'lower
> deck' crew- all prime to be killed in some way.

In any case, I think it's more mostly window dressing. Add a few more characters in the background that can be recognized admidst generic crew member #5 and #67.

> I'm convinced that the reason for twin-ponytail
> girl being psychic is they intend to re-introduce
> a removed story where a Gamilas ninja girl sneaks
> aboard the ship, mindfucks the crew with psychic
> poison about doubts and fears and loss (Okita gets
> accused of being a coward by the dead crews of the
> ships lost at Pluto for example) and outright
> kills crew with large throwing needles. This story
> survives in the manga.
>
> Of course I could be completely wrong.

Huh, I had no idea about that one. That's actually kind of cool in a way consistent with the rest of the old series. If so, I can accept her addition a little more easily then. :)

>-------------------------
>herbivorous men
>-------------------------
>
>Sorry, but I have to say that I really dislike that term, it seems laden with >condenscending gender bias tinged with near-homophobia.

Condescending, absolutely. Homophobic, absolutely not. The image is one of shock/horror at large numbers of young men who have lost interest in sex AT ALL, rather than about young men who are interested in their own sex. In Japan, there are plenty of examples of super-effeminate straight guys (Miyamoto no Yoshitsune) and super-macho homosexual guys (Yukio Mishima) who are considered heroes to many, and I think "gender-bending" and open-mindedness towards variation is one of the things that attracts so many foreigners to Japan. But that said, I have issues with the "herbivorous" term too, mainly in that it's an invention of the mass-media.

> Japanese anime itself is not a medium, it's the animated media output as filtered through the lens of Japanese culture and sub-culture.

This certainly sums up how foreigners see it, but if you're serious about studying it it's important to remember that isn't how the people of the country who actually make it see it. "Anime" sounds like an exotic term in English but it simply means "animation" in Japanese. "Lady and the Tramp" is as much "anime" as "Be Forever Yamato."

That attempt to exoticize what is really a very everyday sort of medium is the core issue here. Many foreign fans have a hard time separating a "semi-romanticized experience of Japan" from reality. (I sympathize, because I did too, as a kid.) I seem to have picked up a reputation for trashing anime as entertainment, when that isn't the case at all. When I criticize it's because I see the issues in anime as reflecting issues in society as a whole (declining birthrate, aging population, decreasing relevance as a world power, collapse of the life-employment system, transition away from a manufacturing economy, etc., etc.) I freely admit to being the worst person to give a review of an anime based on its own merits alone.

> Condescending, absolutely. Homophobic, absolutely
> not. The image is one of shock/horror at large
> numbers of young men who have lost interest in sex
> AT ALL, rather than about young men who are
> interested in their own sex. In Japan, there are
> plenty of examples of super-effeminate straight
> guys (Miyamoto no Yoshitsune) and super-macho
> homosexual guys (Yukio Mishima) who are considered
> heroes to many, and I think "gender-bending" and
> open-mindedness towards variation is one of the
> things that attracts so many foreigners to Japan.
> But that said, I have issues with the
> "herbivorous" term too, mainly in that it's an
> invention of the mass-media.

Okay, if that's how to differentiate it, I follow you then.

While I think it's ultimately up to oneself whether they choose to live the "monosexual" life deliberately (and I'm not counting those who really don't have much hope due to other reasons such as disability, etc.), I do think the hikkikomori phenomenom and a rejection of learning proper social skills is a nasty issue.

> This certainly sums up how foreigners see it, but
> if you're serious about studying it it's important
> to remember that isn't how the people of the
> country who actually make it see it. "Anime"
> sounds like an exotic term in English but it
> simply means "animation" in Japanese. "Lady and
> the Tramp" is as much "anime" as "Be Forever
> Yamato."

Yes, I actually almost posted something to that effect myself for clarification, but omitted it as it the paragraph was already becoming a wall of text and I deliberately chose the words "Japanese anime" ("Nihon no anime") which is of course redundant in the western language. I think you are arguing the same thing in this sense, because I am differentiating "Japanese anime" from "animation" or simply "anime" as it is called in Japan.

> That attempt to exoticize what is really a very
> everyday sort of medium is the core issue here.

Right, again this was actually essentially what I was trying to express. The relatively brief time I spent in Japan myself was particularly enlightening and forced me to reconsider what it all meant to me.

> Many foreign fans have a hard time separating a
> "semi-romanticized experience of Japan" from
> reality. (I sympathize, because I did too, as a
> kid.)

Indeed. This has been true even before anime, to a degree.

> I seem to have picked up a reputation for
> trashing anime as entertainment, when that isn't
> the case at all. When I criticize it's because I
> see the issues in anime as reflecting issues in
> society as a whole (declining birthrate, aging
> population, decreasing relevance as a world power,
> collapse of the life-employment system, transition
> away from a manufacturing economy, etc., etc.) I
> freely admit to being the worst person to give a
> review of an anime based on its own merits alone.

Well, that's why I said I understand where you are coming from, too. I think for my part, a lot of it now is that I do miss those daily sights and sounds and experiences, so anime is another way I can relive that, on top of that I simply like what I see in terms of design, direction, music, and dialogue. I know that anime is totally shaped by what is seen as humdrum and normal, common experience. I just find that basis more interesting than what I see domestically. But I also am self-conscious of how much of that is "semi-romanticized" through my own distanced perception. :) I suppose you could liken it to how artists in Europe collected and idealized Ukiyo-e.

Supersentai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can someone catch me up as to the definition of
> the terminology "un-frightening" as used in
> describing the archetype imaginary girlfriend for
> moe-o-phyles and the like out there?

Un-frightening: Rei from Eva is pretty much seen as the prototype of the most un-frightening girl possible. She puts no needs on you, she does what you tell her to do, she doesn't say no even if she might not say yes.

>
> I know what Misa could put the scare in Ichijyo
> once in a while, is that what we're talking about?

No, because even tho Misa goes all melty thinking of her underage hotshot pilot, she can be bossy and demanding, but not as self-centered as Minmay.

> Or is there an inference that real women
> inherently are frightening?

Yes. Scary. independent. needing to constantly play the game of "what did she mean by that?" and "but you SAID I could go to the comic market why are you mad?" and other variations.

>
> Guess that would explain the dudes checking out of
> the dating pool and hitching up their "Monoseeds"!

Give me a giant monowheel cycle and I'll pick up so many chicks I won't know what to do with all of them!! Vroom Vroom!

Yeah, I think the "non-threatening" label applies more to non-"three dimensional" women (or men perhaps, if we are talking fujoushi, etc.)...you know, the type that can emotionally damage you, bankrupt you, take you to court, divorce you and take the kids, etc.

A number of the archetypes that are well-liked by many otaku include what I would certainly be tempted to call "threatening" characters in contrast to the Rei type. But they are still "safe" as they are only 2D. A hikki (shut-in) can play with their imaginary "waifu" to their heart's content and not have to worry about ever getting betrayed (other than by themselves).

It's not a hard fantasy to understand or sympathize with. It is sad though that these individuals don't find someone real to share their lives with, especially when it's only due to a simple lack of trying, or caving in after one bad experience.

On a tangent from another point mentioned earlier in this thread, I have noticed that the spineless male lead (a la Love Hina and its ilk; a character archetype that I also find particularly annoying) has fallen from favor in recent years. They still exist here and there, but the more popular titles seem instead to either lean toward assertive, often snarky or witty male leads, or not even have a central male character at all (if any male).

It was enough to make the creator of Love Hina and Negima at one point pronounce that "moe'" is now dead or dying, as it no longer popularly follows the archetype of his personal preference. Of course this is also the same fellow who tried to explain "moe'" in its early days as a non-sexual, male "maternal" feeling, all while putting out more of his voyeur-driven cheesecake harem material.

To assume *most* current moe`-type shows feature male leads of the former type (as I've seen some do here) is incorrect, and has been so for quite some time now. Whether this is an overall improvement or not, though, is a more subjective call. I think it is, but the shows can still suck all the same.

At least Yamato won't have to worry about any of that, unless they do some serious re-working of Kodai's image! ;)

microbry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, I think the "non-threatening" label applies
> more to non-"three dimensional" women (or men
> perhaps, if we are talking fujoushi, etc.)...you
> know, the type that can emotionally damage you,
> bankrupt you, take you to court, divorce you and
> take the kids, etc.

I think that the only "non-threatening" woman I've ever met was an autistic girl who was also very shy. Unfortunately, she would not be the ideal girl for a hiki because she had a very clear own personality.

(people who suggest Rei is autistic are so full of shit)

The type of girl otakus seem to wish for is some kind of contradiction: Both outgoing and restrained in the sense of being completely devoted. Capable of deep thought and yet totally superficial and easily steerable. Beautiful and yet in need of help due to ailments. Strong of mind and still submissive.

For the record, even back in high school I was on "team" Misa Hayase vs. the adolescent wimper-whelper that was Minmay (Mingmay). The idea of a competent, mildly-aggresive, take-charge woman who was also vulnerable seemed attractive in theory. In the real world, you can get most of those characteristics, but often loose the "vulnerability" in the equation, pretty much leaving you with Bethany Frankel. Ugh!

I thought Minmay became interesting when she was all washed up toward the end, a bit darker and edgier than she was at the beginning. Kind of like Olivia Newton John in the late 80's!

Depends which novel. The ones focusing on Special Circumstances are essentially making adventure out of covert military intervention - SC is like the CIA performing paramilitary operations in Laos, or something. A lot of Banks' sf work is caught in that ambiguous zone between "war is hell" and "war is awesome".

P.S. VF5SS could tell you that sci-fi messageboards are full of Culture fans who can't stop obsessing over the exotic weaponry that Banks invents. Never mind that Banks never explains how any of it is supposed to work... it's cool enough that it becomes conceptual candy for combat-loving nerds.

asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just ducking back to this thread in to resume an
> off-topic tangent.
>
> microbry Wrote:
> >
> > Iain M.Banks' Culture stuff isn't what I'd call
> > militaristic, but its dammmmmn good. :)
>
> Depends which novel. The ones focusing on Special
> Circumstances are essentially making adventure out
> of covert military intervention - SC is like the
> CIA performing paramilitary operations in Laos, or
> something. A lot of Banks' sf work is caught in
> that ambiguous zone between "war is hell" and "war
> is awesome".
>
> P.S. VF5SS could tell you that sci-fi
> messageboards are full of Culture fans who can't
> stop obsessing over the exotic weaponry that Banks
> invents. Never mind that Banks never explains how
> any of it is supposed to work... it's cool enough
> that it becomes conceptual candy for combat-loving
> nerds.

I've been quite taken with David Drake's 'Leary of the RCN' novels and am really torn about picking up the latest (forthcoming) in hardcover instead of waiting the 12-14 months for the paperback. I REALLY hate having a series of novels in mixed format, I guess that's an OCD thing for me. Of course I like most of the SF that Drake writes, Can't get into his fantasy stuff to save my life. Well, there was the Belisarius books he did with Eric Flint, I really like those and his other 'science fantasy' or 'high fantasy' tales with Roman backgrounds.

I've also been picking up Baen's recent reprints of Poul Anderson's 'Technic Civilization' stuff and on a whim started on the trade paperback collections of A. Bertram Chandler's 'John Grimes' tales.

Actually, it's kind of funny, most of my SF is coming from Baen lately. I used to be a hard core Del-Rey man with a mix of other publishers but that's changed over the past 10 or so years. Hurm.

And for the record I can't stand the Honor Harrington books. I get a bit tried of how very very 'Mary Sue' she appears.

> That attempt to exoticize what is really a very
> everyday sort of medium is the core issue here.
> Many foreign fans have a hard time separating a
> "semi-romanticized experience of Japan" from
> reality. (I sympathize, because I did too, as a
> kid.) I seem to have picked up a reputation for
> trashing anime as entertainment, when that isn't
> the case at all. When I criticize it's because I
> see the issues in anime as reflecting issues in
> society as a whole (declining birthrate, aging
> population, decreasing relevance as a world power,
> collapse of the life-employment system, transition
> away from a manufacturing economy, etc., etc.) I
> freely admit to being the worst person to give a
> review of an anime based on its own merits alone.

Ah. To someone like me, I find this an alien concept to think about the reflecting issues when watching an anime. I don't want to have it be the thing that kills the enjoying of a show. Rather, I develop my own criteria for what's entertaining.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

"2001 Nights" manga-ka Yukinobu Hoshino just released a graphic novelization of J.P. Hogan's "Inherit the Stars" that I have gotten totally addicted to. Hope it gets an English version soon so that other hard-sF nerds can enjoy it. The mash-up of American storytelling filtered through Japanese artistic sensibilities is really compelling

On a similar note, have you ever read or seen "Moonlight Mile"? I'm going through the second season of the anime on and off now and the series hits a lot of sweet spots for me as an old SF nerd (and it also has a strong western influence to the storytelling and art style--think The Right Stuff meets 2001 with a dash of Space: 1999, and a teensy bit of mecha thrown in).

A shame the second season was never released stateside. I've heard the mangaka has taken a temporary break from the manga just recently to do a Gundam side story adaptation (or something like that), which ought to be awesome if he applies his sense for using real physics in storytelling and that harder SF approach to it.

I've seen a little Moonlight Mile, but it really seemed like such a... frat-boy-ish vision of space travel to me. These cool, tough guys, doing cool things. I couldn't help but compare it to Planetes, which is one of my favorite works of science fiction, and it seemed to inevitably suffer from the comparison.

I have heard of Moonlight Mile and have been meaning to check it out. I really wish more of these "outliers" were made into anime or films...

On that note, director Takashi Miike recently gave an interview discussing his issues with the Japanese film industry. The bit about how "production committees," a system that is peculiar to the Japanese TV/film world, dictate what people get to see applies to the anime world as well. If one show is a hit it is virtually a guarantee that that is all you will see for years afterwards.

hillsy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I never paid much attention to Planetes when it
> came out. Anyone see it and have thoughts on it?

Saw it. Liked it. Others may disagree but I came away feeling "Patlabor in Space" and I think that's a good thing.

Needed more episodes however. I think it would have been quite interesting had this been an 'old school' year-long 52 episodes joint. We needed a bit more on how the world is different with actual low-cost (I assume it to be) space lift and working 'cities in space' (well, maybe more like 'office parks in space').

It's worth picking up. Grab it quick, stuff that was low production numbers is fast vanishing.

Good enough endorsements for me! Oh, I finally saw Yamato: Resurrection, this weekend. I liked it. It was a little too...packed (it would have made a better series), but I thought it was a good homage.

SteveH Wrote:
>
> Saw it. Liked it. Others may disagree but I came
> away feeling "Patlabor in Space" and I think
> that's a good thing.

It's not hard to make that connection, given Ai's and Noa's similar look and personality (which I'm sure Makoto Yukimura must have been aware of - the character design feels intentionally inspired by Noa), but I think Planetes really achieves greater depth in its character portrayals. I don't have very detailed memories of the anime, but I reread the manga recently, and several elements - the passages dealing with Fee's childhood and home life, parts of Hachimaki's psychological turmoil, and even Werner Locksmith's little vignettes - showed a literary ambition uncommon in sci-fi manga. Beyond that, the realism of the setting is also very well attended to. The American release of the manga translates a supplemental article on the setting in the back of the last volume (though apparently it was just one part of a companion piece published in some magazine, as I recall. I'd love to get my hands on that).

> Needed more episodes however.

I can get behind that. If the anime had followed the manga story more closely (looking into it, it seems they only majorly divert within the last few episodes), it would've been nice to see the entire Jupiter mission, the work they do there as well as the return, and how Hachi and Ai's relationship changes given the time lapse and what they've been doing in the interim. But I guess the anime staff was somewhat stuck with what Yukimura had done, and he cut the series off where he did, with a fitting thematic conclusion.

But yeah, Planetes: Highly recommended, especially the manga. Up there with Stand Alone Complex, as a work that I'd put with my favorite SF novels in terms of conceptual quality and artistic merit.

hillsy Wrote:
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> Good enough endorsements for me! Oh, I finally saw
> Yamato: Resurrection, this weekend. I liked it. It
> was a little too...packed (it would have made a
> better series), but I thought it was a good
> homage.

Yamato:Resurrection was way better than it had any right to be. It's not perfect (and the Director's Cut fixes some of my gripes and introduces new ones. :) ) but for a project that was stillborn back in 1994 (and actually going back to I think 1988), it works surprisingly well.

asterphage Wrote:
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> I really should read 2001 Nights.
>
> I've seen a little Moonlight Mile, but it really
> seemed like such a... frat-boy-ish vision of space
> travel to me. These cool, tough guys, doing cool
> things. I couldn't help but compare it to
> Planetes, which is one of my favorite works of
> science fiction, and it seemed to inevitably
> suffer from the comparison.

It's probably not as good as Planetes (which I need to see more of still), and was made on a shoestring, but I think it really deserves points for realism and I didn't see it so much as frat-boy vision but more like the heavy machismo in the face of the life-risking work of the test pilots as portrayed in The Right Stuff. I do think it was pretty deliberately emulating western stuff with these character archetypes. Also some pretty timely stuff in one episode about living as a young muslim character interested in rocketry in our post-9-11 USA.

It does get more interesting as the political stakes start to escalate and things speed up in the later part. I'm still just shy of half way through season two though, so I can't give an overall final impression just yet (though of course the manga was still continuing when it finished airing, so I anticipate either some anime-original closure or to be left hanging....).

microbry Wrote:
> Also some pretty timely stuff in one episode about
> living as a young muslim character interested in
> rocketry in our post-9-11 USA.
>
> It does get more interesting as the political
> stakes start to escalate and things speed up in
> the later part.

That's interesting, and sounds along the lines of the more significant themes that Planetes introduces. I may check out the manga.

asterphage Wrote:
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> That's interesting, and sounds along the lines of
> the more significant themes that Planetes
> introduces. I may check out the manga.

Yeah, the Indian guy that gets a reality check about how his antics to endear himself to the corporate higher ups aren't being received as he thought they were and the *gasp* rationalization and breakdown of socio-political events that lead to radical terrorist reaching the extremes that they do was a bit of a surprise.

That battle is so much more dynamic than the original. The 3D models really let the animators do whatever they want and the rendering looks really really good. I do feel bad for the earth defense forces. Watching that first salvo just bounce off of the enemy ships hull is pretty disheartening. I'm glad they left the shots of dudes getting sucked out into the vacuum of space. No GiJoe parachute out of helicopters in this show.