Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

With absolutely no cynicism at all, I also wonder how many other communities have the same legends. I think it would be important information.

One reason it is believable here is because Moctezuma owned land, and in later years, until about 1911 the Moctezuma family still owned land, until the last Moctezuma, a female, died, probably of flu. She is one of a very small number of people buried in the church property, since it was allegedly illegal to do so.

Yet, the Moctezuma family was big enough there were family members located all over the place. Looking at the LDS database, in the early 1600's, there were many of that name in different places. Most were in DF, which is where Moctezuma himself lived and died, so that makes sense.

So, anywhere Moctezuma's lived at that time, were choices of places to bury him or any treasure.

Good point!

This place was known to him, and thus to his family; servants; and slaves. But that does not say other places were not also known. One assumes if they were in a hurry to do something, they would select a place known to them, instead of needing to hunt for a good place.

Since I try to keep legend and truth separate, this posting is high probability, not part of the legend.

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Howdy Piegrande,

Very interesting and informative, thank you for sharing.

Multiple mounds is intresting in the fact that one of the mounds could hold human remains, and the other treasure. Another possibility for multiple mounds might be "ploy mounds" with nothing in them, or they didn't want to put all the eggs in one basket, which might mean even more mounds scattered about the country side. Just a thought.

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

You have good ideas.

Another possibility, of course, is there were different functions in different places. For example the original ruins in the pictures above are placed such that I suspect its original function was some sort of lookout, or beacon tower, since their income depended upon not letting the merchant travelers get by. You can see by the two photos with views that they had a really good view of the area for quite a distance.

I am accused good naturedly of "fomenting" an interest in the local history. Guilty as charged, your honor.

My best friend, or his wife, depending upon who is listening, is an extremely intelligent woman, self-educated since her dad pulled her out of school in the early 70's after primary, telling her women don't need education. I assumed for a long time she was a university graduate, not a primary school graduate.

She gets bored here in the village, because there are few intellectuals. in this town, and no other intellectual women. Thursday night, I pulled up this URL on her computer, and she used Google to translate the two threads I originated. She was so enthused and excited that she was bouncing all over the place.

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Originally Posted by piegrande

You have good ideas.

Another possibility, of course, is there were different functions in different places. For example the original ruins in the pictures above are placed such that I suspect its original function was some sort of lookout, or beacon tower, since their income depended upon not letting the merchant travelers get by. You can see by the two photos with views that they had a really good view of the area for quite a distance.

I am accused good naturedly of "fomenting" an interest in the local history. Guilty as charged, your honor.

My best friend, or his wife, depending upon who is listening, is an extremely intelligent woman, self-educated since her dad pulled her out of school in the early 70's after primary, telling her women don't need education. I assumed for a long time she was a university graduate, not a primary school graduate.

She gets bored here in the village, because there are few intellectuals. in this town, and no other intellectual women. Thursday night, I pulled up this URL on her computer, and she used Google to translate the two threads I originated. She was so enthused and excited that she was bouncing all over the place.

It's addicting isn't it

I don't know any Spanish, but I've been interested in starting to learn it so maybe if she particpates in Spanish it will finally get me off my butt and out to take classes!

"There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

This is a smart woman. Over the last 12 years, visiting her husband and talking in English, she has developed the ability to follow the general topic under discussion, even if she is not sure exactly what she is saying.

The first thing she learned was the obvious things we didn't want her to understand, gross male humor. She is not really a vulgar person, but she does have a somewhat risqué sense of humor. So, we have to watch our male humor when she is there.

She is off to Leon, Guanajuato, her birthplace, for two weeks with an incredibly sweet 5 year old grand-daughter. The girls name is Lucea, like my favorite aunt who died many years ago. It will be a fast trip because the new Mexico City bypass, called Arco Norte, really cuts the time from Puebla to the north.

This little girl was born with her heart "wired" wrong, something about the arteries reversed at the heart. This can be fatal. I know you hear about bad medical care in Mexico, but that is greatly exaggerated, except general family practice in the government hospitals, which is like something out of Dickens. But, if something is serious, they move them up the ladder to a really good hospital. There is a free government hospital in Mexico City which does surgery like she needed, and they took her there. Even when she was obviously in pain, she was sweet and loving. I am not clear if she will need more surgery when she is older, but at this time she just takes her baby aspirin once a day.

Most little girls here are awfully sweet, but this one is off the charts. And, two weeks with Granny?

When she heard they were going to a city called Leon (Lion) she was all enchanted. "Like the animals in the jungle?"

I suppose she expects to see lions walking in the street.

Gotta' go, cousin called and wants me to drive him to the next village to see the old, fragile uncle who needs something.

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Hey piegrande, this is a very interesting post, first time I read it.

Near a house in Morelos owned by my family there are also lots of mounds with pyramids usually covered in mud. In fact it is close to Xochicalco which proves most of this sites were not alone but rather a chain or trail of villages linked together. Many of my friends had found them using satellite pictures of the area which showed perfectly square top of hills. This gave them curiosity and they went to inspect them physically and found pillar bases and rocks cut like bricks. I've seen walls just like the ones you have in your pictures which confirm it is indeed a precolonial construction.

I do disagree with the idea of the UNAM giving much thought to it when you decide to publish it. Our experience when we went to the INAH to say we had found a pyramid whose base was larger than Teotihuacan was to say something like : "yeah... we have over 14,000 archeological sites in a waiting list of places to explore and BTW your site was reported already 2 times 20 and 35 years ago." So I wouldnt have high hopes from either UNAM or INAH but best luck with it.

Sorry about my previous PM, didnt mean to offend you asking where were you located, just looking for interesting people in Mexico to go MD's in some of the spots in my region. I respect your privacy and you are free to keep your research to yourself.

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Last night, I was showing these two postings to friends, who were fascinated by the pictures and the comments.

When I told them that some theorize that the Aztecs took the treasure and the body to AZ or Utah, they laughed and laughed.

They said it is a tonteria (foolishness) to imagine while many Aztecs were dying of various diseases, and a large death toll from the battles had decimated the city, that the hundreds of men needed for such a long expedition would spend many months on such a trip.

There were too many good places, within his 'kingdom' to hide things, without taking on hostile tribes for many months, along with the logistics of finding food for that many for that long a time. Also. the Aztecs consistently claimed they had no idea where their home was, they had wandered a long time and had no idea where their origin was.

interesting topic ,i say let them laugh . the first emperor , Montezuma 1 sent an expedition to find the homeland. I wonder what they found?[img][/img]

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Hey, man, if you want to believe in a time when the city of Tenochtitlan was fighting for its life, they sent a large number of people on foot many thousands of miles round trip to bury a dead Emperor in a vague place, when there were plenty of good places within his own land, go for it. Those here who have studied significant history are not going to share that theory, but since no one knows, why not have your own theory?

I am reading Cortes' letters again. In the time when Moctezuma was killed, the Aztecs still had considerable control for miles around. They pursued Cortes clear into Tlaxcala, and still controlled land all the way to Tepeaca. Cortes had to fight them in Tepeaca. So, concerns they would be taking his body or treasure through hostile territory to his own lands in the country are unlikely.

Re: Moctezuma's Tomb

Oh, man!!!

Yesterday, Independence Day, was the day. Last Sunday, the pastor's sister-in-law pointed me at her brother, and asked him when he could accompany me to the Tetele de Moctezuma. We discussed it, and agreed on Thursday at 2 pm.

Later, my wife said, "They probably forgot Thursday is Independence Day, so they may not be able to go."

Nope, when I showed up Thursday, they said, "Let's go." And, we did. We were out walking around the hills for around 3 hours. I don't do a lot of walking long distances in the warmer, sunnier months, so when I got home, I had a long nap.

I have so much to say about what I saw, I hardly know where to start, and also have several pictures. Please be patient with me. This is going to take time to sort out.

This is a major archaeological zone!

It is also an unregistered, major archaeological and historical zone. That means the government archaeologists do not know of its existence, as far as we can tell.

I call it a zone, because from the first place of interest to the Tomb of Moctezuma, which turned out to be the same one I told about before, my GPS showed 2.23 Km, or just under 1.25 miles. The first item of interests was assigned Waypoint 49 by my GPS, the last one, the Tomb of Moctezuma, was #56, which should explain why I say it's a zone.

Along that distance, were thus 8 items of interest, from ancient burials to a large oven, of uncertain age, probably for 'cal', what they call quicklime here. Obviously, the ancient burials would seem to be the most important items, no?

We left the village and after some time, my principal guide stopped and pointed at some rocks that seemed to be randomly placed, until he pointed them out. Then, it became obvious they made sort of a ring or circle.

He said in the past, in a time of hunger, local men went out and dug there. In the center of that ring, they found four skeletons, only bones and some hair still remained. Also, old things which they sold to buy food for their families. They covered the bones again. They described the position of the bones to be the standard fetal position of buried bodies.

As we walked on, he pointed out other places where they dug and found skeletons. So, it would seem as if a GPR would be needed here if a dig is ever done. It may well be a major ancient cemetery.

Though one can never be sure, there is a high probability those bones were buried before roughly 1600. The LDS (Mormon) database shows the first document for the local church at 1609, with many as of 1620. It is unlikely burials in other cemeteries would have been done after the Catholic priests came here. Earliest possible date estimations would have to be done by scientific dating techniques.

Then we came to a large construction, which they named as on oven. The limestone based rock, which is actually travertine marble, can be cooked, and becomes quicklime, they call it cal. It is used on construction, though not as strong as Portland Cement, also for 'stucco' finishes in houses, called revoco. Also, it is used to make tortillas. The corn is put in water, with cal, and boiled to loosen the skins of the kernels before grinding, because the skins do not make for good tortillas.

We have no idea if this oven is more or less modern, that is, in the last two centuries, the Hispanic era, or ancient. As we have seen in the old house ruins, rock structures here can last to some degree, some hundreds of years. The oven looked usable if one dug out the debris which has filled it up. Pictures below, of course, as I sort them out. It is like ten or more feet across, and depth is unknown.

There was an amphitheater looking excavation, though I must wonder if it might have been a place where they dug out marble for the oven. But, the locals said they believed it was a place where an old traditional game of ball was played. The picture will not show that shape, because of the tree growth.

There was a large, raised area, though no visible construction seemed to be on it. They viewed this as a pyramid, though in no place but the Tomb itself was there any visible, clearly delineated construction as we think of when we use the word pyramid.

Several times as we walked along, he stopped, reached down and handed me something which he had found. He said they were legs of cajetes. These are bowl like things with legs, and they are used for mixing or grinding foods or medicines. I cannot find cajetes in my dictionary, but molcajete is one name for such an item. My wife, though we have a power blender, still at times uses her old, traditional molcajete when cooking.

He said they are clay, but are not 'cooked', which I think we would say baked. I don't know how they have lasted such a long time, but there they were on a hilltop lying in the dirt. I can only imagine what there might be, below the dirt.

There was one thing which they said was part of a stone hatchet. I don't buy it, but what do I know.

I will eventually have a photo of all five objects. I cannot speak for the age of the legs, except the ones for sale today are indeed baked clay.

We came to an old building. They called it a hacienda. It is actually in good shape, except the roof is gone, and the door is gone, but the walls are in good shape. There is a natural bee hive in the end. The local history says this building was built in the early days of Porfirio Diaz, that is, the latter part of the 19th Century, and soldiers were stationed there, and in several similar buildings in the area to maintain order.

Hey, I wouldn't mind buying that old house and fixing it up but it is on ejido land, that is, communal land, and cannot be sold without legal authorization.

We kept walking, and I noticed we were pretty far from the village. They said we are going to the Tetele. It came over me. This is the same Tomb of Moctezuma I went to before. It was. To be sure, I ran a GPS distance to/from from the original coordinates, and it said .01 km, or roughly ten meters. Yep, same location.

I had a question from a poster here about the construction of the visible wall in the ruin, and while I was there, I set out to answer it.

This time they were more patient than my company last time, so I struggled my way up to the visible wall.

My guide said it was made by using white powder, made from a certain type of rock, ground up, and placed wet between the rocks. There was one place where it is damaged, but in general with my touch I could not detect any difference between cement based mortar and this material. It is a solid wall, very strong, not at all fragile. Picture below when I get them processed.

At one part of the ruin, they said it was a door. I cannot say it wasn't, but I can say it just looked to me like a hole or collapsed place.

As I said, please have patience with me. This was such a surprise to encounter so many things, that it is going to take time to sort it all out. Pictures will be next as I get to them.