Wow, I completely forgot about the Sega Saturn in my last post... I guess you can take that as either the fact it was that forgetable or that Saturn just didn't matter.

Ok including Saturn we have these consoles or add ons from Sega in the nineties.
Genesis
32x add on
32x console
Sega cd (technically an add on. You needed a Genesis or 32x to play it)
Sega Saturn
Sega Dreamcast

That's six in under ten years! Plus most came out a year after each other. Its obvious why Sega failed which I pointed out previously. They went broke fighting a power/graphics war that nobody was really interested in. On top of that they were using faulty weapons (to keep with the war analogy) nothing worse that bringing out your big guns and the blow up in your face.

What Sega should've done was ride the Genesis (with or without 32x add on) dropped cd and Saturn and launched Dreamcast in 96 or 97 and put it against a new N64 and a established but obsolete PS1. I think Sega could have still been in the industry in the 5th gen of consoles. Hell there could of been a chance they would've been the winner of fourth gen and Nintendo and Sega's roles could have been swapped.

But think about it, what if any of the big three went this route or if any will? I have the strong sense this is the route Microsoft will go this gen. Not by console releases but by add ons. Microsoft could face a significant loss or perhaps they'll get it right this time, after all they're Microsoft. Honestly though, xbox fans should be more concerned if windows 8 tanks rather than what Sony or Nintendo is doing. Rest assured if windows 8 tanks there probably wont be a 720.

I think Nintendo's third party support is stronger then the dreamcasts.

Nintendo fanbase alone will get it at least 25mil sales, the ''Wii'' brand will get it another 25 mill sales and slap another 10 mill sales for family friendly features and games,price and Nintendo games.

Though I very much doubt it will be the phenomena the Wii was, the gamepad is not anywhere near as ''blue ocean'' as the wiimote was.

Click to expand...

I don't get how people can say that. The gamepad can bring about games seen in GC/GBA connectivity without an add-on. It can let you draw plays in Madden. It can let you put your face in the game. It can let you continue to play while your girlfriend wants to watch law and order or while you want to watch your home team's latest game. it can be an instant keyboard. it makes reading text easier so games like puzzlequest don't require you to sit right in front of your tv and the same can be said for the general internet and/or netflix. It's a mic so that allows the possibility for new games like seaman, Odama, those kinect voice command games, and Hey You Pikachu. It's a nfc reader which means kids toys can actually interact with their videogames and think back to when you were a kid and how amazing that seemed or just look at skylander sales figures and realize that there is a market there. It still supports motion control and in a big way here at launch which not only is awesome but also saves you dollars because most people already own wiimotes. Just Dance 4, CoD, NintendoLand, ESPN Sports Connection, Marvel Avengers, Pikmin, and many others will support this. This thing is 20x more "blue ocean" then you people are realizing. Yes, we've all seen touchscreens but it's not the seeing them that's important, it's the always having this device as a default when developing. Every developer can choose to utilize it and many already are in significant ways that are being downplayed as less significant. CoD will let you play a competitive bout with a friend as if you each had your own TV. This thing let's you change the channel and keep playing CoD, Darksiders, and other titles. You're thinking ohh it'll just be Rayman in HD or maybe CoD but the reality is that the console itself gives significant advantage to every gamer who uses it.

I'll take your bet though. I think this thing will surpass the Wii. I think it has a headstart, is not competing against the same juggernaut of hype that existed after the PS2 generation, and has plenty of 3rd party support on day one to indicate that it will attract quite a selection of gamers and that momentum will not die down. I see absolutely no proof that SONY/MS can or will make machines that are so radically different and somehow automatically more supported that Nintendo will fall short of the Wiis success.

Click to expand...

There is not much point in talking to you because you would probably defend reggies an iwata's faeces.

but here goes nothing

I agree with all those things you mention about the gamepad, but all those things are more applicable to the hardcore and more regular gamers.

Blue ocean was bringing more players in. The wiimote got grandparents and parents playing games, they very easily understood how to bowl with the wiimote. First thing about the gamepad is that it looks a lot more complex then the wiimote and is also alot more complex then the wiimote to use.

and the fact that tablets are in the mainstream absolutely matters, the wiimiote was a completely new idea never seen before the same can not be same about the gamepad, granted you and I may realise its very different to ipads and androids tablets because you interact with the tv, but to the average joe, the use/interaction of tablets is nothing new and different like the original wii was!

actually, i was surfing NeoGaf, and there is a thread over there with rumors of the devkit and whatnot for the next xbox, and supposedly, they are working on a tablet like controller for their next system. whether its a full controller tablet packed with the console, or improved smartglass functionality, it's what the rumors are pointing to. and the kicker is, all the xbox fanboys that smashed the wii-u and the gamepad over there, are all like "omg, its gonna kick ass, woohoo! yadda yadda yadda..." "its nothing like the gamepad its better, blah blah blah..." its ridiculous, i swear. cracks me up just like how the sony drones did the same thing when the psmove came out.

Click to expand...

yeah because sony and Nintendo fanboys would not dream of doing anything similar.

actually, i was surfing NeoGaf, and there is a thread over there with rumors of the devkit and whatnot for the next xbox, and supposedly, they are working on a tablet like controller for their next system. whether its a full controller tablet packed with the console, or improved smartglass functionality, it's what the rumors are pointing to. and the kicker is, all the xbox fanboys that smashed the wii-u and the gamepad over there, are all like "omg, its gonna kick ass, woohoo! yadda yadda yadda..." "its nothing like the gamepad its better, blah blah blah..." its ridiculous, i swear. cracks me up just like how the sony drones did the same thing when the psmove came out.

Click to expand...

yeah because sony and Nintendo fanboys would not dream of doing anything similar.

I dont understand why people think the next box and ps4 are going to be some awesome powered super machine. Micro wants to improve and rely on kinect for their next system and Sony just cant afford another ps3 like scenario

Click to expand...

We know intellectually why but you cant blame some people. Since the dawn of consoles we have have been used to huge graphical jumps every console gen. Some people are expecting what they have been used to their entire lives but even when you look to modern PC's you can see the jump wont be huge. But I'm thankful for this because this can push developers to focus on what really matters like animation, art style, AI, physics and of course most important gameplay.

actually, i was surfing NeoGaf, and there is a thread over there with rumors of the devkit and whatnot for the next xbox, and supposedly, they are working on a tablet like controller for their next system. whether its a full controller tablet packed with the console, or improved smartglass functionality, it's what the rumors are pointing to. and the kicker is, all the xbox fanboys that smashed the wii-u and the gamepad over there, are all like "omg, its gonna kick ass, woohoo! yadda yadda yadda..." "its nothing like the gamepad its better, blah blah blah..." its ridiculous, i swear. cracks me up just like how the sony drones did the same thing when the psmove came out.

Click to expand...

yeah because sony and Nintendo fanboys would not dream of doing anything similar.

I think Nintendo's third party support is stronger then the dreamcasts.

Nintendo fanbase alone will get it at least 25mil sales, the ''Wii'' brand will get it another 25 mill sales and slap another 10 mill sales for family friendly features and games,price and Nintendo games.

Though I very much doubt it will be the phenomena the Wii was, the gamepad is not anywhere near as ''blue ocean'' as the wiimote was.

Click to expand...

I don't get how people can say that. The gamepad can bring about games seen in GC/GBA connectivity without an add-on. It can let you draw plays in Madden. It can let you put your face in the game. It can let you continue to play while your girlfriend wants to watch law and order or while you want to watch your home team's latest game. it can be an instant keyboard. it makes reading text easier so games like puzzlequest don't require you to sit right in front of your tv and the same can be said for the general internet and/or netflix. It's a mic so that allows the possibility for new games like seaman, Odama, those kinect voice command games, and Hey You Pikachu. It's a nfc reader which means kids toys can actually interact with their videogames and think back to when you were a kid and how amazing that seemed or just look at skylander sales figures and realize that there is a market there. It still supports motion control and in a big way here at launch which not only is awesome but also saves you dollars because most people already own wiimotes. Just Dance 4, CoD, NintendoLand, ESPN Sports Connection, Marvel Avengers, Pikmin, and many others will support this. This thing is 20x more "blue ocean" then you people are realizing. Yes, we've all seen touchscreens but it's not the seeing them that's important, it's the always having this device as a default when developing. Every developer can choose to utilize it and many already are in significant ways that are being downplayed as less significant. CoD will let you play a competitive bout with a friend as if you each had your own TV. This thing let's you change the channel and keep playing CoD, Darksiders, and other titles. You're thinking ohh it'll just be Rayman in HD or maybe CoD but the reality is that the console itself gives significant advantage to every gamer who uses it.

I'll take your bet though. I think this thing will surpass the Wii. I think it has a headstart, is not competing against the same juggernaut of hype that existed after the PS2 generation, and has plenty of 3rd party support on day one to indicate that it will attract quite a selection of gamers and that momentum will not die down. I see absolutely no proof that SONY/MS can or will make machines that are so radically different and somehow automatically more supported that Nintendo will fall short of the Wiis success.

Click to expand...

There is not much point in talking to you because you would probably defend reggies an iwata's faeces.

but here goes nothing

I agree with all those things you mention about the gamepad, but all those things are more applicable to the hardcore and more regular gamers.

Blue ocean was bringing more players in. The wiimote got grandparents and parents playing games, they very easily understood how to bowl with the wiimote. First thing about the gamepad is that it looks a lot more complex then the wiimote and is also alot more complex then the wiimote to use.

and the fact that tablets are in the mainstream absolutely matters, the wiimiote was a completely new idea never seen before the same can not be same about the gamepad, granted you and I may realise its very different to ipads and androids tablets because you interact with the tv, but to the average joe, the use/interaction of tablets is nothing new and different like the original wii was!

Click to expand...

I agree but what about those ideas doesn't bring new players in. Consider this, those same new players bought the Nintendo DS and pushed it to 152 million units sold worldwide before we even start to count the DSi, DSi Xl, or DS Lite. The DS had no motion control and it sold better than the Wii or any game console ever. Now the only argument left is that since this isn't "new" to them somehow it's going to take a backseat to things that lack such innovation. I just think that argument is obviously flawed. It doesn't make sense given that the 3DS sales data that indicates that people are still buying the touchscreen dreams. It also discounts how different this ends up being where I can play on the big screen or push the game to my controller, play two player titles as if each player had their own tv, and then let them know "secrets" that other tv based players are unaware of (like where I set that Zombie or where I, as the ghost, am currently located). Again we still have motion too so you can't say that something that is so obviously better is going to attract fewer new players. What about the popularity of angry birds, minecraft, and facebook games makes you think that a touch screen, creativity based gamepad built to interact in a social fashion with other users won't attract new players.

I will not defend every decision of Nintendos. The gamecube was a flop and the reasons were clear. The same can be seen on the n64. I even think it'd be nice if Nintendo made their network guaranteed to be free and NintendoLand was a MMO but I also understand the business reasons that this last thing didn't happen and may never happen. What I argue against isn't that every Nintendo idea is perfect but that their current ideas are right for the market. I think they can fail but this requires them to completely ignore 3rd parties, make their machine more expensive to develop than the competition, and to basically not do everything else that they've already done so I think their position is pretty good. For me, acting as a clueless gamer, it could be better. They could get me GTA5 as an exclusive, get Ubisoft and Capcom to announce ports of Watch_Dogs and Remember Me two months ago, and give me full games of Zelda, Metroid, and SM3D on day one and while those are all fine dreams, they wouldn't sell a single extra unit when they are going to have no stock available as is. The end result would probably be financial losses that they could never recover from just so 2 guys who were on the fence jumped over. It's not just a Nintendo thing either. 360 launched in late 2005 and Halo wasn't released until late 2007. Uncharted also did not launch with the PS3 but instead came a year after the console came out. Noone benefits to do this any earlier and if you really believed that the PS4/720 were going to be such a threat then you should concede it might be better to hold back the big guns to rile up the fan-base when those new systems are announced.

Everyone, the REAL PROBLEM WITH THE DREAMCAST WAS THAT THE SATURN SUCKED SUCH MAJOR BALLS THEY LOST MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF THE GENESIS' INSTALL BASE. BY THE TIME DREAMCAST WAS OUT, MANY PEOPLE HAD ALREADY MOVED ON FROM SEGA. THE ONLY REASON IT SOLD MORE THAN SATURN WAS BECAUSE IT DIDN'T SUCK. WII SOLD 97M UNITS. THE END

I'm getting Dreamcast vibes as well, but not the negative kinds. I haven't been this excited for a console since the Dreamcast! No other console has launched with so many features and great games that I can't wait to try out. There is just too much awesomeness to embrace. The Wii U is bringing back the enjoyment I've had when the Dreamcast launched. So much to look forward to!

I don't get how people can say that. The gamepad can bring about games seen in GC/GBA connectivity without an add-on. It can let you draw plays in Madden. It can let you put your face in the game. It can let you continue to play while your girlfriend wants to watch law and order or while you want to watch your home team's latest game. it can be an instant keyboard. it makes reading text easier so games like puzzlequest don't require you to sit right in front of your tv and the same can be said for the general internet and/or netflix. It's a mic so that allows the possibility for new games like seaman, Odama, those kinect voice command games, and Hey You Pikachu. It's a nfc reader which means kids toys can actually interact with their videogames and think back to when you were a kid and how amazing that seemed or just look at skylander sales figures and realize that there is a market there. It still supports motion control and in a big way here at launch which not only is awesome but also saves you dollars because most people already own wiimotes. Just Dance 4, CoD, NintendoLand, ESPN Sports Connection, Marvel Avengers, Pikmin, and many others will support this. This thing is 20x more "blue ocean" then you people are realizing. Yes, we've all seen touchscreens but it's not the seeing them that's important, it's the always having this device as a default when developing. Every developer can choose to utilize it and many already are in significant ways that are being downplayed as less significant. CoD will let you play a competitive bout with a friend as if you each had your own TV. This thing let's you change the channel and keep playing CoD, Darksiders, and other titles. You're thinking ohh it'll just be Rayman in HD or maybe CoD but the reality is that the console itself gives significant advantage to every gamer who uses it.

I'll take your bet though. I think this thing will surpass the Wii. I think it has a headstart, is not competing against the same juggernaut of hype that existed after the PS2 generation, and has plenty of 3rd party support on day one to indicate that it will attract quite a selection of gamers and that momentum will not die down. I see absolutely no proof that SONY/MS can or will make machines that are so radically different and somehow automatically more supported that Nintendo will fall short of the Wiis success.

Click to expand...

There is not much point in talking to you because you would probably defend reggies an iwata's faeces.

but here goes nothing

I agree with all those things you mention about the gamepad, but all those things are more applicable to the hardcore and more regular gamers.

Blue ocean was bringing more players in. The wiimote got grandparents and parents playing games, they very easily understood how to bowl with the wiimote. First thing about the gamepad is that it looks a lot more complex then the wiimote and is also alot more complex then the wiimote to use.

and the fact that tablets are in the mainstream absolutely matters, the wiimiote was a completely new idea never seen before the same can not be same about the gamepad, granted you and I may realise its very different to ipads and androids tablets because you interact with the tv, but to the average joe, the use/interaction of tablets is nothing new and different like the original wii was!

Click to expand...

I agree but what about those ideas doesn't bring new players in. Consider this, those same new players bought the Nintendo DS and pushed it to 152 million units sold worldwide before we even start to count the DSi, DSi Xl, or DS Lite. The DS had no motion control and it sold better than the Wii or any game console ever. Now the only argument left is that since this isn't "new" to them somehow it's going to take a backseat to things that lack such innovation. I just think that argument is obviously flawed. It doesn't make sense given that the 3DS sales data that indicates that people are still buying the touchscreen dreams. It also discounts how different this ends up being where I can play on the big screen or push the game to my controller, play two player titles as if each player had their own tv, and then let them know "secrets" that other tv based players are unaware of (like where I set that Zombie or where I, as the ghost, am currently located). Again we still have motion too so you can't say that something that is so obviously better is going to attract fewer new players. What about the popularity of angry birds, minecraft, and facebook games makes you think that a touch screen, creativity based gamepad built to interact in a social fashion with other users won't attract new players.

I will not defend every decision of Nintendos. The gamecube was a flop and the reasons were clear. The same can be seen on the n64. I even think it'd be nice if Nintendo made their network guaranteed to be free and NintendoLand was a MMO but I also understand the business reasons that this last thing didn't happen and may never happen. What I argue against isn't that every Nintendo idea is perfect but that their current ideas are right for the market. I think they can fail but this requires them to completely ignore 3rd parties, make their machine more expensive to develop than the competition, and to basically not do everything else that they've already done so I think their position is pretty good. For me, acting as a clueless gamer, it could be better. They could get me GTA5 as an exclusive, get Ubisoft and Capcom to announce ports of Watch_Dogs and Remember Me two months ago, and give me full games of Zelda, Metroid, and SM3D on day one and while those are all fine dreams, they wouldn't sell a single extra unit when they are going to have no stock available as is. The end result would probably be financial losses that they could never recover from just so 2 guys who were on the fence jumped over. It's not just a Nintendo thing either. 360 launched in late 2005 and Halo wasn't released until late 2007. Uncharted also did not launch with the PS3 but instead came a year after the console came out. Noone benefits to do this any earlier and if you really believed that the PS4/720 were going to be such a threat then you should concede it might be better to hold back the big guns to rile up the fan-base when those new systems are announced.

Click to expand...

Those features you mentioned might bring in new players, but my point is that the WiiU is fundamentally more complicated the the original wii which may put off or confuse some gamers (parents,grandparents) who brought the wii because of its simplicity.

Are you saying the WiiU is an easier for ppl who have only played pong, and a more mainstream concept then the wii?

Are you saying that the gamepad is more innovative and a less saturated tech then the wiimote was?

yeah because sony and Nintendo fanboys would not dream of doing anything similar.

Click to expand...

Not similar Qwaid.

It's flat out copying.

Click to expand...

great, whats wrong with copying?

Anyway I was talking about the fanboys not the companies.

Click to expand...

Copying eventually turns everything stagnant, that's what's wrong with it. Can all the Xbox fans really hold thier heads high when the new unit comes out and it's essentially a more powerful Wii U with the intent of taking even more of your money than Nintendo did?? They call Nintendo fans blind, but they should step back and take a good look around. Besides, I've already expressed my belief that they categorically DO NOT need to do this. But if they do, I will 100% lose any ounce of respect I have for them, and declare that they need to grow a set.

Everyone, the REAL PROBLEM WITH THE DREAMCAST WAS THAT THE SATURN SUCKED SUCH MAJOR BALLS THEY LOST MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF THE GENESIS' INSTALL BASE. BY THE TIME DREAMCAST WAS OUT, MANY PEOPLE HAD ALREADY MOVED ON FROM SEGA. THE ONLY REASON IT SOLD MORE THAN SATURN WAS BECAUSE IT DIDN'T SUCK. WII SOLD 97M UNITS. THE END

It's coming out FIRST out of the next-gen systems, has a screen on the controller and will be less powerful than Sony & Microsoft's next-gen systems. (all similar to the Dreamcast launch)

They also have a super strong launch line up just like the DC did but once PS2 & Xbox hit the DC went down the tubes.

What prevents this from becoming the next Dreamcast other than the saving grace of 1st party titles?

I don't want to drop all this coin on a Wii U if history is going to repeat itself.

Click to expand...

People thought the Wii was Dreamcast doomed (90+ million units later). We also have no confirmation about whether the next gen ps4 and xbox will be more powerful. Look at PS2 it was the weakest of its gen and it went on to win that generation of gaming. Same thing with Wii. Nintendo hit the right note by making the Wii U controller a tablet (the current trend of tech as we know it right now).

Copying eventually turns everything stagnant, that's what's wrong with it. Can all the Xbox fans really hold thier heads high when the new unit comes out and it's essentially a more powerful Wii U with the intent of taking even more of your money than Nintendo did?? They call Nintendo fans blind, but they should step back and take a good look around. Besides, I've already expressed my belief that they categorically DO NOT need to do this. But if they do, I will 100% lose any ounce of respect I have for them, and declare that they need to grow a set.

On topic, and FWIW, I effing loved the Dreamcast.

Click to expand...

But if the Wii U gets the support of the N64, GameCube, & Wii while the "Nextbox" gets the support of the other Microsoft consoles, then quite frankly, the "Nextbox" won't be a waste of money at all.

It's coming out FIRST out of the next-gen systems, has a screen on the controller and will be less powerful than Sony & Microsoft's next-gen systems. (all similar to the Dreamcast launch)

They also have a super strong launch line up just like the DC did but once PS2 & Xbox hit the DC went down the tubes.

What prevents this from becoming the next Dreamcast other than the saving grace of 1st party titles?

I don't want to drop all this coin on a Wii U if history is going to repeat itself.

Click to expand...

People thought the Wii was Dreamcast doomed (90+ million units later). We also have no confirmation about whether the next gen ps4 and xbox will be more powerful. Look at PS2 it was the weakest of its gen and it went on to win that generation of gaming. Same thing with Wii. Nintendo hit the right note by making the Wii U controller a tablet (the current trend of tech as we know it right now).

Click to expand...

(90+ million units later)

Click to expand...

And almost no 3rd party support for games aimed at older gamers like myself.

Look at PS2 it was the weakest of its gen and it went on to win that generation of gaming.

Click to expand...

That was because of the PS2's 3rd party support, not the fact that everybody's moms wanted a piece of it. The PS2's large category of games that were aimed at older gamers are what set it above the GameCube.

Same thing with the Wii

Click to expand...

The Wii was successful for other reasons. The 3rd party support is vapid & pitiful.

It's coming out FIRST out of the next-gen systems, has a screen on the controller and will be less powerful than Sony & Microsoft's next-gen systems. (all similar to the Dreamcast launch)

They also have a super strong launch line up just like the DC did but once PS2 & Xbox hit the DC went down the tubes.

What prevents this from becoming the next Dreamcast other than the saving grace of 1st party titles?

I don't want to drop all this coin on a Wii U if history is going to repeat itself.

Click to expand...

Except the fact they have more money than SEGA did at the time and didn't just come out of a horrible selling system and have a sucessful handheld on them. Yea......I'm pretty sure Reggie is swimming in money right now

Everyone, the REAL PROBLEM WITH THE DREAMCAST WAS THAT THE SATURN SUCKED SUCH MAJOR BALLS THEY LOST MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF THE GENESIS' INSTALL BASE. BY THE TIME DREAMCAST WAS OUT, MANY PEOPLE HAD ALREADY MOVED ON FROM SEGA. THE ONLY REASON IT SOLD MORE THAN SATURN WAS BECAUSE IT DIDN'T SUCK. WII SOLD 97M UNITS. THE END

Everyone, the REAL PROBLEM WITH THE DREAMCAST WAS THAT THE SATURN SUCKED SUCH MAJOR BALLS THEY LOST MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF THE GENESIS' INSTALL BASE. BY THE TIME DREAMCAST WAS OUT, MANY PEOPLE HAD ALREADY MOVED ON FROM SEGA. THE ONLY REASON IT SOLD MORE THAN SATURN WAS BECAUSE IT DIDN'T SUCK. WII SOLD 97M UNITS. THE END

Sega was in terrible shape when they released the Dreamcast. People think the Dreamcast is what sunk the ship, but it was the Saturn. Sega spent a boat load of money on the Saturn, and it sold like utter crap. Sega had also put a bad taste in peoples mouth with all the add on's for Genesis. If Sega has released Dreamcast coming off a success like the Genesis, the outcome would have been very different. The fight was between Nintendo and Sony by that point, and Sega was the odd man out. Microsoft brought PC gaming to consoles, and acquired some of that market and continued to expand upon that. Nintendo is in great shape coming off their best selling home console ever. Nintendo's development teams have been working on software for almost two years now, there should be plenty coming down the pipeline next year and going forward. Nintendo will win E3 next year with software. When Retro shows off what the system can really do, and Nintendo gives us a glimpse of Mario and Zelda, enthusiasm for the console will only rise.

There is not much point in talking to you because you would probably defend reggies an iwata's faeces.

but here goes nothing

I agree with all those things you mention about the gamepad, but all those things are more applicable to the hardcore and more regular gamers.

Blue ocean was bringing more players in. The wiimote got grandparents and parents playing games, they very easily understood how to bowl with the wiimote. First thing about the gamepad is that it looks a lot more complex then the wiimote and is also alot more complex then the wiimote to use.

and the fact that tablets are in the mainstream absolutely matters, the wiimiote was a completely new idea never seen before the same can not be same about the gamepad, granted you and I may realise its very different to ipads and androids tablets because you interact with the tv, but to the average joe, the use/interaction of tablets is nothing new and different like the original wii was!

Click to expand...

I agree but what about those ideas doesn't bring new players in. Consider this, those same new players bought the Nintendo DS and pushed it to 152 million units sold worldwide before we even start to count the DSi, DSi Xl, or DS Lite. The DS had no motion control and it sold better than the Wii or any game console ever. Now the only argument left is that since this isn't "new" to them somehow it's going to take a backseat to things that lack such innovation. I just think that argument is obviously flawed. It doesn't make sense given that the 3DS sales data that indicates that people are still buying the touchscreen dreams. It also discounts how different this ends up being where I can play on the big screen or push the game to my controller, play two player titles as if each player had their own tv, and then let them know "secrets" that other tv based players are unaware of (like where I set that Zombie or where I, as the ghost, am currently located). Again we still have motion too so you can't say that something that is so obviously better is going to attract fewer new players. What about the popularity of angry birds, minecraft, and facebook games makes you think that a touch screen, creativity based gamepad built to interact in a social fashion with other users won't attract new players.

I will not defend every decision of Nintendos. The gamecube was a flop and the reasons were clear. The same can be seen on the n64. I even think it'd be nice if Nintendo made their network guaranteed to be free and NintendoLand was a MMO but I also understand the business reasons that this last thing didn't happen and may never happen. What I argue against isn't that every Nintendo idea is perfect but that their current ideas are right for the market. I think they can fail but this requires them to completely ignore 3rd parties, make their machine more expensive to develop than the competition, and to basically not do everything else that they've already done so I think their position is pretty good. For me, acting as a clueless gamer, it could be better. They could get me GTA5 as an exclusive, get Ubisoft and Capcom to announce ports of Watch_Dogs and Remember Me two months ago, and give me full games of Zelda, Metroid, and SM3D on day one and while those are all fine dreams, they wouldn't sell a single extra unit when they are going to have no stock available as is. The end result would probably be financial losses that they could never recover from just so 2 guys who were on the fence jumped over. It's not just a Nintendo thing either. 360 launched in late 2005 and Halo wasn't released until late 2007. Uncharted also did not launch with the PS3 but instead came a year after the console came out. Noone benefits to do this any earlier and if you really believed that the PS4/720 were going to be such a threat then you should concede it might be better to hold back the big guns to rile up the fan-base when those new systems are announced.

Click to expand...

Those features you mentioned might bring in new players, but my point is that the WiiU is fundamentally more complicated the the original wii which may put off or confuse some gamers (parents,grandparents) who brought the wii because of its simplicity.

Are you saying the WiiU is an easier for ppl who have only played pong, and a more mainstream concept then the wii?

Are you saying that the gamepad is more innovative and a less saturated tech then the wiimote was?

You can not deny these facts

the DS fat did not sell 152 mill

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I think your problem is your over thinking the situation. Your so black and white regarding hardcore to casual you don't realise there's a whole continent of gray inbetween. Honestly we won't know how the casuals and grannies will handle the Upad. Regarding the simplicity of the applications and the overall design being similar to a DS. I don't think the casual or elderly will find the Upad itself that complicated. Especially since a substantial majority of DS purchasers are casual or elderly

But varying games is a different story. I don't expect granny to play Assassin's Creed III. But I do expect her to enjoy New Super Mario Bros U, Nintendo Land, and various others that have a applicable pick up and play setup. What I know from personal experience is casuals don't like button mashers. I know plenty of casuals who enjoy "hardcore" FPS games or difficult leveled platformers or even high speed racing games. Another casual crowd pleaser, and have been since NES are sports games. So as long as Nintendo keeps that "GREY" area pleased I don't see the Upad being a deterrent to Wii owners or having a steep learning curve.

BTW, your correct about the DS numbers. 154 million is the total unit sales among all variations.

I agree but what about those ideas doesn't bring new players in. Consider this, those same new players bought the Nintendo DS and pushed it to 152 million units sold worldwide before we even start to count the DSi, DSi Xl, or DS Lite. The DS had no motion control and it sold better than the Wii or any game console ever. Now the only argument left is that since this isn't "new" to them somehow it's going to take a backseat to things that lack such innovation. I just think that argument is obviously flawed. It doesn't make sense given that the 3DS sales data that indicates that people are still buying the touchscreen dreams. It also discounts how different this ends up being where I can play on the big screen or push the game to my controller, play two player titles as if each player had their own tv, and then let them know "secrets" that other tv based players are unaware of (like where I set that Zombie or where I, as the ghost, am currently located). Again we still have motion too so you can't say that something that is so obviously better is going to attract fewer new players. What about the popularity of angry birds, minecraft, and facebook games makes you think that a touch screen, creativity based gamepad built to interact in a social fashion with other users won't attract new players.

I will not defend every decision of Nintendos. The gamecube was a flop and the reasons were clear. The same can be seen on the n64. I even think it'd be nice if Nintendo made their network guaranteed to be free and NintendoLand was a MMO but I also understand the business reasons that this last thing didn't happen and may never happen. What I argue against isn't that every Nintendo idea is perfect but that their current ideas are right for the market. I think they can fail but this requires them to completely ignore 3rd parties, make their machine more expensive to develop than the competition, and to basically not do everything else that they've already done so I think their position is pretty good. For me, acting as a clueless gamer, it could be better. They could get me GTA5 as an exclusive, get Ubisoft and Capcom to announce ports of Watch_Dogs and Remember Me two months ago, and give me full games of Zelda, Metroid, and SM3D on day one and while those are all fine dreams, they wouldn't sell a single extra unit when they are going to have no stock available as is. The end result would probably be financial losses that they could never recover from just so 2 guys who were on the fence jumped over. It's not just a Nintendo thing either. 360 launched in late 2005 and Halo wasn't released until late 2007. Uncharted also did not launch with the PS3 but instead came a year after the console came out. Noone benefits to do this any earlier and if you really believed that the PS4/720 were going to be such a threat then you should concede it might be better to hold back the big guns to rile up the fan-base when those new systems are announced.

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Those features you mentioned might bring in new players, but my point is that the WiiU is fundamentally more complicated the the original wii which may put off or confuse some gamers (parents,grandparents) who brought the wii because of its simplicity.

Are you saying the WiiU is an easier for ppl who have only played pong, and a more mainstream concept then the wii?

Are you saying that the gamepad is more innovative and a less saturated tech then the wiimote was?

You can not deny these facts

the DS fat did not sell 152 mill

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I think your problem is your over thinking the situation. Your so black and white regarding hardcore to casual you don't realise there's a whole continent of gray inbetween. Honestly we won't know how the casuals and grannies will handle the Upad. Regarding the simplicity of the applications and the overall design being similar to a DS. I don't think the casual or elderly will find the Upad itself that complicated. Especially since a substantial majority of DS purchasers are casual or elderly

But varying games is a different story. I don't expect granny to play Assassin's Creed III. But I do expect her to enjoy New Super Mario Bros U, Nintendo Land, and various others that have a applicable pick up and play setup. What I know from personal experience is casuals don't like button mashers. I know plenty of casuals who enjoy "hardcore" FPS games or difficult leveled platformers or even high speed racing games. Another casual crowd pleaser, and have been since NES are sports games. So as long as Nintendo keeps that "GREY" area pleased I don't see the Upad being a deterrent to Wii owners or having a steep learning curve.

BTW, your correct about the DS numbers. 154 million is the total unit sales among all variations.

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I humble apologize for being wrong about the DS numbers. It seems it did only sell ~153 million total. I am so sorry that I got something wrong. Thanks for replying with many instances of being completely wrong though @King7qwaid. In all seriousness what of those things that you said do you believe are facts? Do you really think the 90 million people who bought the Wii and bought an average of 10 games each were "grandparents"? This failed viewpoint is just absurd. Yes, the Wii brought around more non-gamers than other consoles but those weren't all septuagenarians and this is a fact. The things you say are rarely facts but misinformed viewpoints but I'll let you apologize for them as I have for mine above.

Those features you mentioned might bring in new players, but my point is that the WiiU is fundamentally more complicated the the original wii which may put off or confuse some gamers (parents,grandparents) who brought the wii because of its simplicity.

Are you saying the WiiU is an easier for ppl who have only played pong, and a more mainstream concept then the wii?

Are you saying that the gamepad is more innovative and a less saturated tech then the wiimote was?

You can not deny these facts

the DS fat did not sell 152 mill

Click to expand...

I think your problem is your over thinking the situation. Your so black and white regarding hardcore to casual you don't realise there's a whole continent of gray inbetween. Honestly we won't know how the casuals and grannies will handle the Upad. Regarding the simplicity of the applications and the overall design being similar to a DS. I don't think the casual or elderly will find the Upad itself that complicated. Especially since a substantial majority of DS purchasers are casual or elderly

But varying games is a different story. I don't expect granny to play Assassin's Creed III. But I do expect her to enjoy New Super Mario Bros U, Nintendo Land, and various others that have a applicable pick up and play setup. What I know from personal experience is casuals don't like button mashers. I know plenty of casuals who enjoy "hardcore" FPS games or difficult leveled platformers or even high speed racing games. Another casual crowd pleaser, and have been since NES are sports games. So as long as Nintendo keeps that "GREY" area pleased I don't see the Upad being a deterrent to Wii owners or having a steep learning curve.

BTW, your correct about the DS numbers. 154 million is the total unit sales among all variations.

Click to expand...

I humble apologize for being wrong about the DS numbers. It seems it did only sell ~153 million total. I am so sorry that I got something wrong. Thanks for replying with many instances of being completely wrong though @King7qwaid. In all seriousness what of those things that you said do you believe are facts? Do you really think the 90 million people who bought the Wii and bought an average of 10 games each were "grandparents"? This failed viewpoint is just absurd. Yes, the Wii brought around more non-gamers than other consoles but those weren't all septuagenarians and this is a fact. The things you say are rarely facts but misinformed viewpoints but I'll let you apologize for them as I have for mine above.

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I'm confused. Are you replying to me or Quaid? I actually liked your post, hence why I defended it. Also my correction on ds sales wasn't a flame towards you, just a correction.

Actually, when I continue playing Halo 4 tomorrow, I'm totally going to get some Doritos and Mountain Dew. That sounds really awesome. It's unhealthy, but God dammit that will be an awesome "breakfast." The kind of which I won't ever do for another year or so. Halo+Doritos+Mountain Dew=Freakin' awesome.

the thing with 3rd party games on the wii u... I think Nintendo is actually holding back companies from making announcements and are doing so to keep us all focused on the launch and what we get this year...we have seen it ebfore on the wii u with stuff like blops2 being held back while the company was out all voer the palce talking up the ps3/360 versions... Nintendo seems to want to control the flow of announcements so as not to overwhelm... and IMO this is a BIG MISTAKE... because while they succeed in controlling game anticipation they also inadvertently make the wii u look like a system with no future, when a company is out there hyping the hell out of some big game coming up and no wii u version is ever mentioned or hinted at even though it IS in development that is very bad for the wii u on multiple levels... for instance allot of people wont even realize it is on the wii u even when it is announced for it... I bet allot of cod blops2 anticipators have no idea it is coming to wii u for instance... but beyond even that, when they do understand it is coming to the wii u, the later announcement gives it a sort of last minute port stigma that the others don't have, which all reinforces the "wii u isn't TRUE hardcore" BS... Nintendo really needs to stop interfering with 3rd parties on multiplat titles... controlling information on exclusives is fine.... but on multiplats the games are already being talked about

the wii u still looks ridiculously light in 2013 compared to the ps3 and 360... and that is just wrong

I think your problem is your over thinking the situation. Your so black and white regarding hardcore to casual you don't realise there's a whole continent of gray inbetween. Honestly we won't know how the casuals and grannies will handle the Upad. Regarding the simplicity of the applications and the overall design being similar to a DS. I don't think the casual or elderly will find the Upad itself that complicated. Especially since a substantial majority of DS purchasers are casual or elderly

But varying games is a different story. I don't expect granny to play Assassin's Creed III. But I do expect her to enjoy New Super Mario Bros U, Nintendo Land, and various others that have a applicable pick up and play setup. What I know from personal experience is casuals don't like button mashers. I know plenty of casuals who enjoy "hardcore" FPS games or difficult leveled platformers or even high speed racing games. Another casual crowd pleaser, and have been since NES are sports games. So as long as Nintendo keeps that "GREY" area pleased I don't see the Upad being a deterrent to Wii owners or having a steep learning curve.

BTW, your correct about the DS numbers. 154 million is the total unit sales among all variations.

Click to expand...

I humble apologize for being wrong about the DS numbers. It seems it did only sell ~153 million total. I am so sorry that I got something wrong. Thanks for replying with many instances of being completely wrong though @King7qwaid. In all seriousness what of those things that you said do you believe are facts? Do you really think the 90 million people who bought the Wii and bought an average of 10 games each were "grandparents"? This failed viewpoint is just absurd. Yes, the Wii brought around more non-gamers than other consoles but those weren't all septuagenarians and this is a fact. The things you say are rarely facts but misinformed viewpoints but I'll let you apologize for them as I have for mine above.

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I'm confused. Are you replying to me or Quaid? I actually liked your post, hence why I defended it. Also my correction on ds sales wasn't a flame towards you, just a correction.

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Qwald. I wanted to apologize for the numbers to him and also chose to quote your post as it does a nice job of defending most my points and still pointing out an error which I take no personal issue with. I can be wrong but this does not invalidate my valid points. The 3DS is the number one selling system today. This isn't some trend that is slowing. MS isn't talking up smartglass because Nintendo has a bad idea. Sony isn't talking up PS-Vita connectivity for that same reason. He can deny reality for only so long.

Sega was in terrible shape when they released the Dreamcast. People think the Dreamcast is what sunk the ship, but it was the Saturn. Sega spent a boat load of money on the Saturn, and it sold like utter crap. Sega had also put a bad taste in peoples mouth with all the add on's for Genesis. If Sega has released Dreamcast coming off a success like the Genesis, the outcome would have been very different. The fight was between Nintendo and Sony by that point, and Sega was the odd man out. Microsoft brought PC gaming to consoles, and acquired some of that market and continued to expand upon that. Nintendo is in great shape coming off their best selling home console ever. Nintendo's development teams have been working on software for almost two years now, there should be plenty coming down the pipeline next year and going forward. Nintendo will win E3 next year with software. When Retro shows off what the system can really do, and Nintendo gives us a glimpse of Mario and Zelda, enthusiasm for the console will only rise.

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That, sir, is quite possibly one of the most well reasoned arguments I've ever read on these boards!

Actually, when I continue playing Halo 4 tomorrow, I'm totally going to get some Doritos and Mountain Dew. That sounds really awesome. It's unhealthy, but God dammit that will be an awesome "breakfast." The kind of which I won't ever do for another year or so. Halo+Doritos+Mountain Dew=Freakin' awesome.

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The picture is supposed to represent how inept game "journalists" are; how they would rather make a bit of a profit over logic. This picture, along with many other controversies, is an example of what's wrong with the gaming media. He may say he's a gamer, but he's actually mouth breathing ad revenue.

the wii u still looks ridiculously light in 2013 compared to the ps3 and 360... and that is just wrong

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That's what I fear. Whereas the PS3 & Xbox 360 will get Tomb Raider, Metro: Last Light, Far Cry 3, DmC: Devil May Cry, Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, Dead Space 3, BioShock Infinite, Anarchy Reigns, & Dead Island: Riptide along with big exclusives like Gears of War: Judgement, God of War: Ascension, & Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time, the only big Wii U releases in 2013 are Aliens: Colonial Marines & Pikmin 3 (somewhat of an extent, considering I always thought of the series as a bit of a shallow Sacrifice clone; still good games nevertheless). Why aren't these other games coming? The 360 got tons of great games just a year after its launch (Oblivion, F.E.A.R, Far Cry Instincts: Predator, Rainbow Six: Vegas, GRAW, Hitman 4, Dead Rising, Gears, Splinter Cell 4, Tomb Raider: Legend, & Doom XBLA) and some were exclusive or timed exclusive. Why isn't Nintendo doing this? I know they're exceptionally smart & they have lots of money and investors; what the hell are they doing?

Nintendo has shown time and again that even without 3rd party support they can get by just fine and still turn up a profit. I'm not worried about them. I'm not sure about 3rd party support yet. I mean it will be strong at first but after 2-3 years who knows. Nintendo will do pretty good I'm sure. They make great games and they always find a way to sell them.

Even if the Wii U does end up performing like the Dreamcast, it don't think that would be damaging enough to put Nintendo out of the console business. Might cost a few people their jobs, but Nintendo would be fine.

Off-topic: I love how my browser's spell-checker recognises "Nintendo" as a word, but not "Dreamcast" lol

Sega was in terrible shape when they released the Dreamcast. People think the Dreamcast is what sunk the ship, but it was the Saturn. Sega spent a boat load of money on the Saturn, and it sold like utter crap. Sega had also put a bad taste in peoples mouth with all the add on's for Genesis. If Sega has released Dreamcast coming off a success like the Genesis, the outcome would have been very different. The fight was between Nintendo and Sony by that point, and Sega was the odd man out. Microsoft brought PC gaming to consoles, and acquired some of that market and continued to expand upon that. Nintendo is in great shape coming off their best selling home console ever. Nintendo's development teams have been working on software for almost two years now, there should be plenty coming down the pipeline next year and going forward. Nintendo will win E3 next year with software. When Retro shows off what the system can really do, and Nintendo gives us a glimpse of Mario and Zelda, enthusiasm for the console will only rise.

When I first read the subject of the thread I was thinking "Yeah, because the Sega Dreamcast is totally awesome!", as far as how the Wii U compares to Sega's late, mighty super console. Someone mentioned that the Dreamcast was overrated, and I truly wish it was, maybe it would have sold more units, moved more games and Sega would of been still slugging it out in the console market a little longer; that wasn't the case. When I look back on that generation of gaming, when the word 'overrated' or 'hyped' pop into my mind, I think of the PS2. It was better than the Dreamcast by the thickness of a hair in some cases, and in others ways it lagged behind (having only 4 megabytes for video versus the DC’s 8 megabytes). With all the hot air being blown all oer the internet about the HUGE differences between the Wii U and Sony and Microsoft's unreleased hardware, this is probably the only similarity the Wii U has to the Dreamcast. The difference between it and the PS2 wasn't as huge as Sony made it out to be, and in reality was much smaller in reality, it'll be something similar with the WII U and it's future competition. If it's not than I'll eat crow, even though I prefer fried chicken a lot more. God help me, I may have bad taste by some people's standards but I believed in the DReamcast and darn it, I believe in Nintendo's Wii U!

Everyone, the REAL PROBLEM WITH THE DREAMCAST WAS THAT THE SATURN SUCKED SUCH MAJOR BALLS THEY LOST MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF THE GENESIS' INSTALL BASE. BY THE TIME DREAMCAST WAS OUT, MANY PEOPLE HAD ALREADY MOVED ON FROM SEGA. THE ONLY REASON IT SOLD MORE THAN SATURN WAS BECAUSE IT DIDN'T SUCK. WII SOLD 97M UNITS. THE END

I humble apologize for being wrong about the DS numbers. It seems it did only sell ~153 million total. I am so sorry that I got something wrong. Thanks for replying with many instances of being completely wrong though @King7qwaid. In all seriousness what of those things that you said do you believe are facts? Do you really think the 90 million people who bought the Wii and bought an average of 10 games each were "grandparents"? This failed viewpoint is just absurd. Yes, the Wii brought around more non-gamers than other consoles but those weren't all septuagenarians and this is a fact. The things you say are rarely facts but misinformed viewpoints but I'll let you apologize for them as I have for mine above.

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I'm confused. Are you replying to me or Quaid? I actually liked your post, hence why I defended it. Also my correction on ds sales wasn't a flame towards you, just a correction.

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Qwald. I wanted to apologize for the numbers to him and also chose to quote your post as it does a nice job of defending most my points and still pointing out an error which I take no personal issue with. I can be wrong but this does not invalidate my valid points. The 3DS is the number one selling system today. This isn't some trend that is slowing. MS isn't talking up smartglass because Nintendo has a bad idea. Sony isn't talking up PS-Vita connectivity for that same reason. He can deny reality for only so long.

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I figured as much. Just wanted to be sure. Yea the fact he has yet to respond to my post kinda proves he's lost the argument and was probably just trolling anyways