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Saturday, January 7, 2012

Perfect prey (part 1)

From a reader:

Do you believe that there are empaths who are perfectly suitable partners for sociopaths?

I have been playing cat and mouse with a certain sociopath for four years now. We have gone back and forth between 'love', hate, jealousy, possession and everything in between, and I can't imagine anyone more intellectually or emotionally stimulating. I consider myself to be in love with this person, and know from their inability to get away from me, they reciprocate this to some degree.

I have had others boyfriends (all who I believe are empaths), and I couldn't stand them. I am inextricably proud of 'my sociopath' when they are exerting power over others, and I find it hilarious and thrilling when I know that they are trying to manipulate me also.

M.E.: It makes sense that there would be certain empaths who value sociopathic traits more than others, such that they would be willing to put up with a lot more of the "negative" traits (or not even see them as negative) than most would. And it is odd to read some of the comments and see that some people have had multiple interactions with sociopaths over their lifetime--almost like they are a magnet for sociopaths.

But I feel like I should give you some unsolicited advice, just because I just got done emailing someone who pushed her sociopath too far and had him abandon her. The tricky thing about sociopaths in relationships is that nothing is certain. You are probably right that your sociopath is intrigued with you, maybe even infatuated. There is no such thing as "can't live without" in the sociopath's world, though. They are extremely adaptable and changeable and if you are gone, they really will hardly notice (if notice at all). That is not to say that they couldn't be a lifelong companion. But, you would have to be like a plate spinner--constantly going from plate to plate, tending to this need here, being ever so slightly difficult and playful there--to keep things going. It's a lot of work, and if you're not naturally interested in those sorts of interpersonal machinations, it might wear on you.

@ Post I was readings some of your statements, again and wanted to add one point.

God's language is faith.God created math, logic and reason. Man is made in God's image, so God is the Author of mathematical thought and rational analysis.

However, His currency is that of faith. One cannot come to God without some pure faith. The Bible is the most logical, cogent book in the world. However, at some point, one must free fall with faith. At some point, man must sky dive and hope the parachute opens. The parachute is faith.

"I have had others boyfriends (all who I believe are empaths), and I couldn't stand them. I am inextricably proud of 'my sociopath' when they are exerting power over others, and I find it hilarious and thrilling when I know that they are trying to manipulate me also"

Does she realize how ridiculously stupid she sounds?

It amazes me when people are actually WILLING victims..... It's actually pretty sad if are attracted to being treated like crap and manipulated, lied to, and cheated on!!!!

Hey SW. I married a man over 10 years ago. At first he swept me off my feet. When we lived under the same roof I watched him on the phone with his ex wife and mother. He would yell at them loudly and call them a "b". I had never seen this before in my life from anyone's behavior! I worried he would do this to me.

Soon after, I saw him talking down to me and he ripped me apart in every way (things I liked, believed in and wore). Nothing was good about me. One time my stepson told me that his dad brought him in his room and did the same thing to him. Total verbal and emotional abuse.

I became depressed. Nothing I did or said was right. He always had this weird glare in his eye. I heard that his ex said that he wanted to be king, that he was "self-righteous", that he would turn everything around to be "your" fault, etc.

Things turned physical. He kicked me in the chest, stomach, hit my head, pushed me down and attacked me on a bed and I almost went unconscious. He was arrested once. We separated for a week. Stupidly I went back and for six years longer now, my children and I have been miserable. I am afraid to make a step and leave. He tried to throw me out of the house a month ago and make me leave with nothing because he said that I came into this marriage with nothing and that I was leaving with nothing. (no credit cards, money, car, kids, etc) or he was calling the police. He did this all to me in front of the kids.

I knew I couldn't yell back because he is capable of the worst. He is the meanest, cruelest person I ever met. He thinks because he earns the money that I need to bow down. I work now and have for the past year and a half. Since 2004 he gambled probably a hundred thousand dollars or more of our money, promising each time he'd stop. He saw a stripper at a club behind my back for 10 months and spent over $30,000 on her and sent her flowers twice.

^^^^STOP. stop feeling sorry for yourself. stop looking for sympathy. stop asking for answers that you already know you can answer on your own. you made a dumb decision six years ago. now live with it.

Angela, you do know what you have to do, so start doing it.Put as much money away as possible when ever you can and set up support for a place to live else where, far away. Or go to a womans shelter, thats support for your side, take the kids with you and let them help you become independant.

Your going to get insults and cold advice from this site and a stray compassionate one here and there.

Take some action now. The womans shelter would only be temporary but if you go to court in the future it will be the piece you need on your side that you need.

Angela, thanks for derailing the religious train we've been on. You don't have to be a slave to your choices. Don't be afraid of change. Each day you choose your fate. Make a different choice. Don't stay if you aren't happy.

Wow. I consider myself to be educated, but the notion of a "sociopath" completely escaped me for some reason. I have a brother who is a sociopath and fits the description to a T. He can't hold on to a job, he drinks like a fish and pops lots of pills, and is so charming and glib, but has worked his way through dozens of "friends" and jobs. I have learned never to expect a birthday or Christmas present, but instead, to be shook down for a few thousand dollars during the holidays.

One of his most annoying traits is to take credit for what others have done and said. For example, if we are having dinner with some people, he will echo a statement I just said, and act like he thought it up. He has taken credit for my ideas, and I have found out that other people he has worked with also complain he takes credit for things he did not do. This is the core of why he finds himself out of work.

I think this false sense of greatness and the belief that "That's a great idea, I must have thought of it, because I am so bleeping great!" is at the core of sociopathy. Not only do they take credit for good ideas, they shift blame for their screw ups onto other people.

There's this notion that they are perfect and flawless, and they do anything to persist in this lie. It doesn't matter how small or insignificant the matter -- they will never accept fault and take credit for anything that comes out well, whether they did it or not. It could be something like making a vinaigrette that is 2/3 vinegar and 1/3 oil (that will taste awful, if you don't know cooking, and it's typically the other way around). But instead of saying "Oh, I made a mistake", it will be "Oh, mom won't eat it if it is the other way around with too much oil". So he blames the mistake on an intentional desire to appease mother, who thought it tasted awful too. Just admit it! You made a bad salad dressing because you drank three bottles of wine.

That's the thing -- even something as minor as salad dressing has to be defended and he cannot take the blame for preparing a bad meal -- the blame has to be shifted. But believe me, it gets far worse than salad dressing! My point is, they don't pick their battles. They have to win everything.

The funny thing is, it was the TV show South Park that made me realize what a sociopath really is. I always wondered -- do these people know they are like this, or do they just assume they thought of this great idea?

The South Park episode "Fishsticks" completely covers this and it blew my mind that some silly cartoon had this great insight. Basically, Butters thinks up this joke about fish sticks (say it fast enough and it sounds like the slang for fish genitalia, which is the essence of the joke). The joke becomes a huge world wide phenomenon, and Cartman (who is a sociopath), takes credit for it. They really bring the issue of does he really know he didn't think of it, and is just being sleazy, or is he so sociopathic that he really thinks he thought of it? The answer is the latter. The sociopath does "mental gymnastics" so they convince themselves that they really did originate that clever idea.

That said, they do not seem to do well with therapy. He has had several therapists, and has convinced them that he has severe clinical depression (the "pity me" part of sociopathy). He has been on every anti-depressant and also drinks heavily (20-30 units of alcohol per day) and takes pills like vicodin and oxycontin. These patterns of substance abuse.

But yes, for a long time, I wondered: do they really know they are lying? I mean, these lies are pretty far out there. The truth is, they don't. Their ego is so huge that they do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves that they thought of that great idea, or they had the duty of keeping the CEO of one of the largest companies on the planet, "in line", when their rank in the company was near the bottom.

There are no boundaries for the sociopath. They will screw their own mother out of every cent as long as it means more money for fun. They are beasts and there is nothing you can do but distance yourself. If you try to intervene, you step on the quicksand, and he will manipulate people to make you the bad guy.

One should wonder, gee, why does this guy go through so many friends? However, my mother is in very heavy denial and she buys the whole "clinical depression" thing, because he mopes around all day in a dark room, more due to a hangover from 20-30 drinks, than clinical depression. Of course, being manipulative, he tells his therapist he is a social drinker. He may even believe this himself! He has now convinced my mother that he is just a "social drinker" and that it is completely normal to drink 20-30 drinks per day. He doesn't admit to that -- he says he drinks at the level of a moderate social drinker. Then there's the gluttony. He's morbidly obese, which I find a common trait amongst sociopaths.

It is very frustrating to deal with these sociopaths. Their glib charm fools a lot of people, and so many people think I am the creep, because he has manipulated them to think that way.

The sad thing is, my mother enables this behavior and has shelled out about $70k of her own money during this past bout of joblessness. While she had to postpone vacations and eat meager meals, he was out wining and dining, not working, and basically being a parasite.

It's more that I would like to see my mom enjoy her golden years and this can't happen when she is being sucked dry by a sociopath. We (me and one of his current friends) tried to get some real help for him. He ended up manipulating it so we were the jerks, and he was the poor victim (pity, once again!). His friend ended up going back to enabling him, and now I am the jerk. I really hate how it works out.

One of his most annoying traits is to take credit for what others have done and said. For example, if we are having dinner with some people, he will echo a statement I just said, and act like he thought it up. He has taken credit for my ideas, and I have found out that other people he has worked with also complain he takes credit for things he did not do. This is the core of why he finds himself out of work.

this is so common that it's an effective way to get difficult people to do what you want. present the information without taking credit, then give them credit for it. if the issue is their ego, they will leap at the opportunity to believe it's their idea.

it's not the superiority, it's the disdainful attitude together with a complete lack of awareness that others see it that makes them repulsive. smooth words, hostile eyes. it's that complete machine like obliviousness that is repulsive.

obliviousness that's always followed by stupid wonder, when they are called on their behaviour, and a grovelling saccharin friendliness. then right back to the exact same hostility and game playing.

you can verbally slap them until the end of time and it won't make a difference. they can't see you, only the cheap copy of you that exists in their minds.

David, you can only make assumptions about how others perceive you. You are also assuming that everyone else is as obsessed with status and appearance. You really have no idea if what you say is accurate. It sounds delusional.

Its sad when your life is so lame that you derive joy in the delusion that you can make others feel inferior just with a look. Like I said, you have absolutely no way of knowing why someone looks away. Maybe you are ugly or boring. Or maybe they didnt even notice you to begin with. People dont think as much about you as you think, I think.

David, be prepared for neither socio or psycho. Those arent proper diagnostic terms. Yes, some clinicians use them, but many do not, especially outside of prisons and Dr Hare. Also, your "label" will be dependent on what you present and we all know you want to be more than you are.

Welcome to the nuthouse. If you believe David, most of the folks you talk to are this guy who calls himself UKan. There are other here, but your approach leaves something to be desired, so just prepare yourself for ridicule, SamiAm.

For those that see a distinction, a psychopath is the extreme end of the empathy spectrum. Sociopaths are psycho-lite. Antisocial personality disorder is a dignostic label currently in use that is a bit of an umbrella which covers everyone from a common street thug blindly following others to a full blown psychopathic serial killer.

And yes, it was hell living in monotony for a decade with the same person, Raven. Especially since he spent half in a narcissistic depression. Because I emasculated his fragile ego by not being a total codependent. Thats a beeper for ya.

psychopathy is more similar to the narcissistic pd than it is to aspd. psychopaths are rarely in difficulty with the law. they commit acts that won't get them caught, such as domineering their family, or colleagues. when a psychopath does commit a crime, it's well thought out rather than impulsive, but they are extremely impulsive too. with money and stuff like that.

Whatever, they get caught. Just cuz some of you have this shit on a pedestal that a psychopath is a perfect person doesnt make it true. They fuck up and get caught. Bundy was busted because of his burglary tools. He stole shit all the time. And one doesnt have to be in trouble with the law. Criminal behavior is criminal behavior regardless of if you get in trouble for it.

sarah, speaking of bundy.. i read that he needed to drink every time he stole, to quell his nerves and he'd wear a suit to avoid looking suspect. why is it commonly stated that psychopaths are fearless?

I've never even lived with a partner for more than 2 years. I haven't had a lover live with me for more than 6 years now. I can't imagine ever letting someone live with me again. I function better without a commitment. The less people I have to manage, the better.

Anon 1256 I think its not as much fearlessness, its just easier, because they only have to overcome societal programming, but not an innate sense of right/wrong. Also, he was smart to employ the disguises and props he used. Authority figures and injured people tend to automatically be trusted.

It's nothing like the hysterical kind of fear I've witnessed in others. I love fear, crave it. Makes me feel invigorated and alive. On the few occasions I should have experienced terror, I just went mumb. Its like this dissociative defense mechanism reared its head out of nowhere.

If I am in control of the situation, my mind associates fear with pleasure. I am an adrenaline junkie.

But, you would have to be like a plate spinner--constantly going from plate to plate, tending to this need here, being ever so slightly difficult and playful there--to keep things going. It's a lot of work, and if you're not naturally interested in those sorts of interpersonal machinations, it might wear on you.

I thought that sociopaths naturally spin plates for their prey, but once they have their prey figured out, once they know all their buttons, they get bored.

You're so right. I have put up with my abusive, belligerent, condescending, evil, malignant, sociopath husband for 2 and a half years now. We're completely in the same boat. I'm miserable, drowning in ssorrows every day, wondering why im here, and how i ccould stopped so low to stay.

Hmm Tik. I don't know about that. I feel I can talk about whatever I want here. If people are bothered, it is their problem.

I am not talking about BPD, and I am not talking about religion: I am talking about issues related to the sociopathic mindset- and hell of a lot more than the lot of you, at that.

I know that people are shallow enough to not see beyond the fact that I’m Christian and dismiss everything I have to say on that basis. I know that the other socios here will jump on that because they perceive it as a personal weakness. Ukan is going to do this thang with everyone; I don't feel "spechul".

Yesterday, I responded to typical antisocial behavior in like fashion, allowing myself to get dragged into an all-too-familiar process by a real juvenile- and an amateur, low-functioning one at that. But observant, incisive comments on the part of two actual socios: Post and TNP, rendered obvious the fact that I was twisting something purportedly precious and significant to me personally, and wielding it as a weapon, thereby reducing it to a carnival act.

*That* is part of the pathological process that drives sociopaths: we find it very difficult to draw meaningful conclusions about ourselves and others outside a context of hostility. Exposing the insecurities of others is what we do best, because we have had to spend years defending and rationalizing our own. Getting it raw and out there feels good.

I won’t be bullied just because a few people are irritated that I am diverting attention away from the endless cock-talk and “beeper noise”, as MK coined it: I am far too much like the lot of you for that.

My wonderful husband spoils me every day, compliments me all the ttime, and aspires to mmake me happy. He showers mme with love, effort toward our relationship, and dates and activities to spare. He helps to lift me up when I'm down, and he's a staple in my life. A rock. And my favorite person ever. My best friend.

When you come from a household where your actions don't matter, you can be very creative. You can do anything you want and get the same results. There is no consequence. No one is paying attention to you anyway.

Yellow said: I doubt it. There is nothing cathartic about sadistic cruelty.

Oh, but there is, if you are a sociopath. :) But there I go, being all self-centered again.

I am saying that perhaps the prey is initially attracted to the frank, brutal approach of the sociopath. There is something irresistible to him about baring his neck to the wolf: it is a masochistic urge that usually arises in an abused empath. But when the wolf is led captive by his base instincts, he will rarely have the restraint to spare his kill. The scent of blood, the bleeding wound, is too intoxicating.

And candour, when delivered with an intention to humiliate and manipulate, will usually miss the mark.

Very true. But when it is delivered with the intention to manipulate and empower, the outcome may be quite different.

Been watching Caprica on Netflix. Interesting how a virtual world unleashes our inner sociopaths.. without real consequences and need for remorse we are all sociopaths. Makes me wonder if it would be easier for me to kill someone after being "trained" on video games. Will my dissociation kick in and training kick in. Will it not feel real? Not that I want to. Pretty sure thats one experience I would like to avoid if at all possible. But still, as our virtual worlds grow more real, will virtual sociopaths have trouble remembering real life etiquette? Like a soldier back home but still ready for combat.

@Sarah: Researchers have done brain scans on soldiers and people who play first person shooters, and apparently the same parts of the brain light up in both groups. Curious, eh? I'll see if I can dig up a paper on the subject.

davidsocio01 said..." only the cheap copy of you that exists in their minds."

Some good stuff Zoe. I especially like that part. 'Cheap copy' haha. There could be some truth there, or is this just a theory you invented after you got a haughty look from a narc/socio and had to walk away feeling like an ant? :)

no.

but i have walked away seething. not from the haughty look itself, but the stupidity it rode in on. i'm getting better at managing that.

as far as the revulsion, i'm not actually sure where it comes from. if anyone can shed light on that i'd be happy to hear it. it's the narcissists that trigger it, not the sociopaths.

the difference between the two, david, or how i see it: narcissists are charming at a distance and complete little bitches up close. up close they snipe, never shut up, and grovel like cats in heat when confronted. they always play the same game. ego game. if it will serve their ego, you can actually get a lot of work out of them. they look good too, so can be useful to have a few scattered about at cocktail parties.

sociopaths are charming to everyone, and can be very fun to hang out with, but if you can get more than five minutes of work out of them it's a miracle. and usually not worth the effort. but they know how to network and are invaluable in this respect.

i have a theory that narcissists tend to drive automatic and sociopaths stick. i know a huge narcissist though who drives stick, but in stiletto boots so maybe that's not saying much. :)

and before i forget...i learned yesterday that hobbits are real. if hobbits once existed, why not souls?

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Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.