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Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

Originally Posted by Goode05

But everyone is so worried about Mangolds health. I don't get it

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Mangold injury didn't require surgery like Marshal Yanda. Mangold was placed on i.r on December 8th of last year due to his ankle injury.Marshal Yanda had shoulder surgery somewhere in March. It's been almost seven months since Mangold has been dealing with his injury and Yanda had surgery like 3 months ago.There's a big recover time between Mangold and Yanda. If anything I think most should expect Mangold to be healthy by now especially if his injury wasn't serious enough for surgery.

Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

Originally Posted by Filmstudy

Count me in the group that thinks a RT or even any T is the biggest line need now. The team might struggle to find the right guy at center, but the line will fall apart (as presently constructed) if Stanley is injured.

I don't think Lewis is the answer at tackle, although he'd be quite a bit more valuable there to the 2017 Ravens. Here's how I scored it in 2016 with separate charts for his play at guard and tackle.

Jensen has not been great (nor terrible) in what we've seen so far, but I thought he had clearly earned the right for a trial at center last season. The additional weight and reduced body fat noted by Harbaugh are a tipping point for me, given the weakness Ravens centers have had anchoring the past 2 seasons and current set of AFCN interior DL opponents.

Urschel wasn't bad last year, but I don't believe he has the same strength or ability to anchor as Jensen. Urschel got a 7-game trial at center in 2015 and it didn't go well:

We are 2 years removed from that underwhelming stint, but the information is still the most pertinent in terms of how he could play center. I want to believe he can be the line general, because he certainly has the ability to grasp the playbook, but he needs to produce personally as well. IMO, the Ravens line will be best if he is a backup.

With regard to available FAs anywhere on the OL, I encourage Ravens fans to temper expectations. The litany of failed and aging OL FAs signed by the Ravens is long and only Matt Birk (I could also say the 1 year from Willie Anderson was exceptional) was a resounding success. In case you've forgotten, let's review:
--Erik Williams (5x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro before his 5 games/0 starts for the Ravens)
--5x Pro Bowler Andre Gurode who imploded at guard for the Ravens
--Leon Searcy, who was given a huge contract at age 31 and never played a down for the Ravens
--AQ Shipley, nuff said
--Bryant McKinnie (sat out the entire regular season before playoff insertion keyed improvement across the line)

Anyway, with any FA signing that occurs, Mangold or a tackle, we're far more likely to get a dud than a stud.

How did Hurst grade out in terms of pass protection? I know a lot of it wasn't at RT, but I've heard in different spots (mostly from PFF I believe) that Hurst actually graded out quite well in pass protection, and that's it sort of a "myth" that he's not a serviceable player.

Just seems to me that a combination of grading websites saying that he's better than we think, coupled with the fact that he's managed to stay here for 4 years (assuming he makes the team this year) as an UDFA, despite the fanbase thinking he's hot garbage.

Feels like he's perceived a lot higher at the Castle than he is anywhere else...

Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

How did Hurst grade out in terms of pass protection? I know a lot of it wasn't at RT, but I've heard in different spots (mostly from PFF I believe) that Hurst actually graded out quite well in pass protection, and that's it sort of a "myth" that he's not a serviceable player.

Just seems to me that a combination of grading websites saying that he's better than we think, coupled with the fact that he's managed to stay here for 4 years (assuming he makes the team this year) as an UDFA, despite the fanbase thinking he's hot garbage.

Feels like he's perceived a lot higher at the Castle than he is anywhere else...

We overlook a couple of things with Hurst
1-the injury was why he wasn't drafted ... yes he wasn't going to be day 1 or even day 2, but he absolutely would have been drafted earlier on day 3 than later.... but the injury had him fall out of the selections

and secondly, he is still wrongly blamed for Flacco's injury -including in a very recent front page article here which I couldn't respond to since I have nothing to do with farcebook
Yes he did fall back into Flacco's knee, but it wasn't from bullying, it was from Jenson's man who beat Jenson, lunged behind Hurst for Flacco, who stepped up, and was in effect cut blocked from behind, falling backwards over Jenson's man while having his man still fully engaged
I had made screenshots of the sequence, but don't have the room to upload them, and am unable to delete over half of my attachment uploads to make space (asked in problem section but no response)
Anyway, using most of my available space to upload one, you can see Jenson back to you perusing his man who has fallen behind Hurst and is allowing the player Hurst is locked up with to cause Hurst to be cut backwards and he falls into Flacco's knee (other screenshot no room to upload)

The fault is Jenson's
If Jenson can't make the team as a C, I really would rather see him replaced, he has not been a good guard
I may be in a minority here, but I'll take Hurst over Jenson given the choice for the 53

EDIT had to use Faststone to edit the picture down because I needed 37kb more than I had free to even upload it.... so it is smaller and less distinct, but at least posted.

Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

Regarding Hurst, he played RT in week 17 vs. the Bengals:

Hurst: James had another tough game. He was charged with negative scores on 8 plays, including 5 different Bengals (Atkins, Hunt, Clarke, Dunlap, Johnson). I failed to credit him with a highlight on the Juszczyk TD block versus the Steelers, but after watching that play numerous times, he certainly deserved one. Versus the Bengals he had 2 more highlights, including a pancake of Dennard on a nice pull (Q1, 6:59) to lead Dixon’s 12-yard conversion on 4th and 1.

Scoring: 70 plays, 59 blocks, 4 missed, 1 penetration, 4 (3 + 2 X 1/2) pressures, 1/3 sack, 1 offensive holding, 41 points (.59 per play). That’s a D after adjustment. He played T, G, and some TE for the Ravens this season. His versatility could land him an NFL job somewhere in 2017, but as a 4th-year player, he no longer has option value should his level of play improve.

He played RT vs. Pitt in week 16 after Wagner was injured:

Hurst: James played well in relief of Wagner. He allowed a full pressure when bulled Harrison (Q4, 2:05) and another half charged when he became entangled with Dixon (Q4, 15:00). He did not miss any blocks, made 1 block in level 2, and did not have a pancake or highlight.

Hurst: James had a decent game at RT, primarily versus Vernon. I charged him with half of Collins’ sack (Q2, 1:22). On that play, it appears he squares up to block Vernon, but Allen takes an outside path to pick him up squarely while both Collins and Sheppard blitzed the right B gap unblocked. It’s quite possible Allen blocked the wrong man, but Hurst still needed to pick up someone rushing inside and let Vernon go. As it was, Hurst simply stared flatfooted without a block. He made 5 blocks in level 2, pulled successfully twice, and had pancake. He missed 8 blocks, which included 3 missed cuts on the back side of run plays, 2 misses in level 2, and 3 plays where he was beaten/bulled/shed for backfield penetration.

His only start at LT came in week 4, the week after Stanley was injured:

Hurst: James had a game that was at the replacement level (neither above or below). I’m just going to give you the racing form version for his negative scores, so you can see for yourself on Game Pass:

–(Q2, 13:00): Flagged for holding Mack on 3rd-down incompletion in end zone.

–(Q2,8:28): Again flagged for holding Mack who beat him to hit Flacco low.

–(Q2, 3:23): Bulled then shed for QH by Irvin.

–(Q3, 6:01): Failed to offer any help to Jensen to stop McGee, charge split.

–(Q4, 14:57): Beaten outside by Mack to flush Flacco. At same time, Wagner is beaten by Irvin around pocket with momentum to run down for sack. Joe fails to secure football or throw it away on 3rd and 6. Split the sack charge 3 ways, with 1/3 each to Hurst/Wagner/Flacco.

–(Q4, 8:43): Bulled by Mack for pressure.

He had 7 missed blocks, which were a variety pack including an apparent hold on a run play that went uncalled, a slip, 2 run whiffs, and a play where he was beaten outside by Irvin when the ball was out quickly. I did not score him for a single block in level 2, pancake, or highlight block.

Scoring: 79 plays, 65 blocks, 7 missed, 2 pressures, 1.5 QH, 1/3 sack, 2 offensive holdings, 42.5 points (.54 per play). With a significant adjustment for quality of competition, that’s a D. Joe is at significantly more risk of injury while in the shotgun with Hurst at LT, but I also think the performance we just witnessed from Hurst is approximately what you get from a good street LT. As the season moves forward, that talent pool will naturally degrade.

Hurst was flagged 3 times for holding in these games (1 declined, 1 drive stalled). I'd make a few assertions about him:

He had his best year to date in 2016 with no game where he completely fell off the table for a low F

It is reasonable to project some improvement in year 4, particularly with increased time at 1 position.

He is scheduled to make $1.787M under his RFA tender (not guaranteed)

As a 4th-year player, he has no option value remaining, defined as cheap contract years should he break out

The Ravens could still receive a compensatory pick for him if he plays well and signs a nice FA deal

The street FA talent doesn't currently have a Tackle standing at the corner of cheap and good

James will likely make the roster and a breakout at RT would benefit the team more than a breakout for virtually any other player. However, considering depth alone, the Ravens would be foolish to bank on it by failing to acquire another tackle before the opener.

Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

We overlook a couple of things with Hurst: he is still wrongly blamed for Flacco's injury ...

Yes he did fall back into Flacco's knee, but it wasn't from bullying, it was from Jenson's man who beat Jenson, lunged behind Hurst for Flacco, who stepped up, and was in effect cut blocked from behind, falling backwards over Jenson's man while having his man still fully engaged

Pure coincidence that I hit the shutter release just before Hurst rolled into Flacco. This vantage point is nearly 180 deg from the screen capture that Rxdoxx posted:

Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

There is not a RT available or who will become available who will pass protect nearly as well as Ricky Wagner. I hope that Joe Flacco has worked on his evasion, because he's going to need it. Between the pressure up the middle and the pressure off the right edge, he's going to be doing a lot of scrambling.

They are building the line to run the ball. They are not building the line to pass protect Flacco. He's fucked at this point. Unless they have one of the best play-actions games in the league, the passing offense is going to be very hit or miss.

"Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore

Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

Originally Posted by The Excellector

There is not a RT available or who will become available who will pass protect nearly as well as Ricky Wagner. I hope that Joe Flacco has worked on his evasion, because he's going to need it. Between the pressure up the middle and the pressure off the right edge, he's going to be doing a lot of scrambling.

They are building the line to run the ball. They are not building the line to pass protect Flacco. He's fucked at this point. Unless they have one of the best play-actions games in the league, the passing offense is going to be very hit or miss.

The writing is on the wall for this season it's going to be third and long slot with a line that can't pass block. Time for changes. Who would try to build a team this way with two very average backs. If it fails it's time to clean house and get an offensive minded coach in here. Might be time for Ozzie to retire too

Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

Originally Posted by Filmstudy

Regarding Hurst, he played RT in week 17 vs. the Bengals:

Hurst: James had another tough game. He was charged with negative scores on 8 plays, including 5 different Bengals (Atkins, Hunt, Clarke, Dunlap, Johnson). I failed to credit him with a highlight on the Juszczyk TD block versus the Steelers, but after watching that play numerous times, he certainly deserved one. Versus the Bengals he had 2 more highlights, including a pancake of Dennard on a nice pull (Q1, 6:59) to lead Dixon’s 12-yard conversion on 4th and 1.

Scoring: 70 plays, 59 blocks, 4 missed, 1 penetration, 4 (3 + 2 X 1/2) pressures, 1/3 sack, 1 offensive holding, 41 points (.59 per play). That’s a D after adjustment. He played T, G, and some TE for the Ravens this season. His versatility could land him an NFL job somewhere in 2017, but as a 4th-year player, he no longer has option value should his level of play improve.

He played RT vs. Pitt in week 16 after Wagner was injured:

Hurst: James played well in relief of Wagner. He allowed a full pressure when bulled Harrison (Q4, 2:05) and another half charged when he became entangled with Dixon (Q4, 15:00). He did not miss any blocks, made 1 block in level 2, and did not have a pancake or highlight.

Hurst: James had a decent game at RT, primarily versus Vernon. I charged him with half of Collins’ sack (Q2, 1:22). On that play, it appears he squares up to block Vernon, but Allen takes an outside path to pick him up squarely while both Collins and Sheppard blitzed the right B gap unblocked. It’s quite possible Allen blocked the wrong man, but Hurst still needed to pick up someone rushing inside and let Vernon go. As it was, Hurst simply stared flatfooted without a block. He made 5 blocks in level 2, pulled successfully twice, and had pancake. He missed 8 blocks, which included 3 missed cuts on the back side of run plays, 2 misses in level 2, and 3 plays where he was beaten/bulled/shed for backfield penetration.

His only start at LT came in week 4, the week after Stanley was injured:

Hurst: James had a game that was at the replacement level (neither above or below). I’m just going to give you the racing form version for his negative scores, so you can see for yourself on Game Pass:

–(Q2, 13:00): Flagged for holding Mack on 3rd-down incompletion in end zone.

–(Q2,8:28): Again flagged for holding Mack who beat him to hit Flacco low.

–(Q2, 3:23): Bulled then shed for QH by Irvin.

–(Q3, 6:01): Failed to offer any help to Jensen to stop McGee, charge split.

–(Q4, 14:57): Beaten outside by Mack to flush Flacco. At same time, Wagner is beaten by Irvin around pocket with momentum to run down for sack. Joe fails to secure football or throw it away on 3rd and 6. Split the sack charge 3 ways, with 1/3 each to Hurst/Wagner/Flacco.

–(Q4, 8:43): Bulled by Mack for pressure.

He had 7 missed blocks, which were a variety pack including an apparent hold on a run play that went uncalled, a slip, 2 run whiffs, and a play where he was beaten outside by Irvin when the ball was out quickly. I did not score him for a single block in level 2, pancake, or highlight block.

Scoring: 79 plays, 65 blocks, 7 missed, 2 pressures, 1.5 QH, 1/3 sack, 2 offensive holdings, 42.5 points (.54 per play). With a significant adjustment for quality of competition, that’s a D. Joe is at significantly more risk of injury while in the shotgun with Hurst at LT, but I also think the performance we just witnessed from Hurst is approximately what you get from a good street LT. As the season moves forward, that talent pool will naturally degrade.

Hurst was flagged 3 times for holding in these games (1 declined, 1 drive stalled). I'd make a few assertions about him:

He had his best year to date in 2016 with no game where he completely fell off the table for a low F

It is reasonable to project some improvement in year 4, particularly with increased time at 1 position.

He is scheduled to make $1.787M under his RFA tender (not guaranteed)

As a 4th-year player, he has no option value remaining, defined as cheap contract years should he break out

The Ravens could still receive a compensatory pick for him if he plays well and signs a nice FA deal

The street FA talent doesn't currently have a Tackle standing at the corner of cheap and good

James will likely make the roster and a breakout at RT would benefit the team more than a breakout for virtually any other player. However, considering depth alone, the Ravens would be foolish to bank on it by failing to acquire another tackle before the opener.

So it sounds like your opinion is that Hurst should be the starting RT, and we should add a veteran to compete with him and most likely be the backup?

Feels like the potential is there, and if given 16 games at a single position, he could be overall respectable. Obviously nowhere near the level of Wagner, but there was really never a realistic scenario where we would get that kind of player at any point in the offseason.

Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

Originally Posted by Goode05

The writing is on the wall for this season it's going to be third and long slot with a line that can't pass block. Time for changes. Who would try to build a team this way with two very average backs. If it fails it's time to clean house and get an offensive minded coach in here. Might be time for Ozzie to retire too

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In some ways I agree, though again I think part of it is an expectation problem. I mean realistically, starting last season, we had a pretty good idea that 80% of our starting offensive line needed to be turned over. I suppose its possible you could do that in a single offseason, but even the Cowboys took like 2-3 years to build what they did, and they used all premium draft picks to do it for the most part.

I think last years draft was a good start. The only knock I would say is that it appears the FO did nothing this offseason to address C and RT, which is concerning. Again, probably a case where they have guys internally that they see something on, and they're banking on that.

As is typical with these situations, its Pass/Fail in evaluation. If Jensen and Hurst or whoever else is out there plays well enough, the FO looks like geniuses for not investing a ton of money in positions where the replacements were serviceable. On the other hand, if they struggle, everybody wants them fired.

Re: Projected 2017 Depth Chart - Pre-Camp

Originally Posted by bravens23

In some ways I agree, though again I think part of it is an expectation problem. I mean realistically, starting last season, we had a pretty good idea that 80% of our starting offensive line needed to be turned over. I suppose its possible you could do that in a single offseason, but even the Cowboys took like 2-3 years to build what they did, and they used all premium draft picks to do it for the most part.

I think last years draft was a good start. The only knock I would say is that it appears the FO did nothing this offseason to address C and RT, which is concerning. Again, probably a case where they have guys internally that they see something on, and they're banking on that.

As is typical with these situations, its Pass/Fail in evaluation. If Jensen and Hurst or whoever else is out there plays well enough, the FO looks like geniuses for not investing a ton of money in positions where the replacements were serviceable. On the other hand, if they struggle, everybody wants them fired.

The problem is a RT is more valuable in my eyes then a Nt. Especially making the NT the highest payed in the league.

Notes: This is assuming no further major injuries, except that I am projecting Maxx Williams to spend 2017 on IR. I have Nick Boyle on the DC as a FB, but you might just list him as a 4th TE; I don't know if the Ravens will really play with a true FB this year. When Dixon returns from suspension I think he'll push Buck Allen off the team.

As much as I would love to see Chuck Clark make the 53 (I used to coach him when he played pop warner), he's got a serious challenge ahead of him. I don't know if he's Weddle's backup.