"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds. A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind. As an engineer, you should be able to grasp that.

And I didn't say you were trolling this thread, just that you're a troll.

what if u are wrong though about the fetus being non-life. Your mistaken belief and others like you will have sanctioned thousands of fetuses/babies to death. My beliefs on abortion can't result in something horrific like that if I turn out to be wrong.

Consider this: Imagine if everything about men and women was the same, except men had the babies. I think nearly ever single woman would be against abortion at that point given woman's natural nurturer status.

Also, abortion doesn't have anything to do with religion. It is a question of ethics and plenty of atheists oppose it.

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"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. " NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business. We don't have be divas on this stuff." DrTesla

If you're going to pretend that I said something different from what I actually said when responding to my post, then I'm still going to go with "troll" until you stop that pretense and actually engage in some form of honesty.

"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds. A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind. As an engineer, you should be able to grasp that.

And I didn't say you were trolling this thread, just that you're a troll.

what if u are wrong though about the fetus being non-life. Your mistaken belief and others like you will have sanctioned thousands of fetuses/babies to death. My beliefs on abortion can't result in something horrific like that if I turn out to be wrong.

Consider this: Imagine if everything about men and women was the same, except men had the babies. I think nearly ever single woman would be against abortion at that point given woman's natural nurturer status.

Also, abortion doesn't have anything to do with religion. It is a question of ethics and plenty of atheists oppose it.

If men had the babies why wouldn't then the men have the trait of being the nurturer? Why, in your analogy, do you presuppose the women would have it? They most likely have that trait now because they are the ones who give birth, who are the ones who become pregnant.

Also, just to add: most people are against abortion. But "abortion" isn't about abortion. It's about telling a girl/woman that they don't know what to do with their bodies but this group over here does. It's politics and control.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Consider this: Imagine if everything about men and women was the same, except men had the babies. I think nearly ever single woman would be against abortion at that point given woman's natural nurturer status.

And again, I'll echo Nam. Your point here seems to be "if the people who had evolved over thousands of years to be nurturing of babies didn't have the babies, they'd want to nurture babies". And I can't argue with that at all. If men suddenly started giving birth today, we likely would see a shift in opinion. HOWEVER, as I said above, that simply means that a different emotional response set will come to the fore. It doesn't mean that suddenly the collection of cells will experience pain, or become sentient, which is surely the point?

Also, abortion doesn't have anything to do with religion. It is a question of ethics and plenty of atheists oppose it.

Yup. But THIS thread was about how - for someone who truly believes in a good afterlife - abortion would indeed be the kindest thing, as it would guarantee that "soul" immediate and eternal happiness in the afterlife. It would eliminate all the troubles of this world, and remove the danger that soul would be led astray and end up in eternal torment. Hence the question "Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?"

Also, just to add: most people are against abortion. But "abortion" isn't about abortion. It's about telling a girl/woman that they don't know what to do with their bodies but this group over here does. It's politics and control.

-Nam

The fetus isn't the woman's body. That is why this is a controversial subject. If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ, pretty sure nobody would care.

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"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. " NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business. We don't have be divas on this stuff." DrTesla

"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds. A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind. As an engineer, you should be able to grasp that.

And I didn't say you were trolling this thread, just that you're a troll.

what if u are wrong though about the fetus being non-life. Your mistaken belief and others like you will have sanctioned thousands of fetuses/babies to death. My beliefs on abortion can't result in something horrific like that if I turn out to be wrong.

Consider this: Imagine if everything about men and women was the same, except men had the babies. I think nearly ever single woman would be against abortion at that point given woman's natural nurturer status.

Also, abortion doesn't have anything to do with religion. It is a question of ethics and plenty of atheists oppose it.

If men had the babies why wouldn't then the men have the trait of being the nurturer? Why, in your analogy, do you presuppose the women would have it? They most likely have that trait now because they are the ones who give birth, who are the ones who become pregnant.

You're all kinds of "idiot", aren't you?

-Nam

My scenario says men and women stay the same except the men get pregnant, the women don't. We can stipulate the men that also become nurturers because many are anyway. My point was about how society excuse something when females are involved that they wouldn't if it was men. This is because men do not feel comfortable criticizing something women do. Women are elevated in our society.

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"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. " NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business. We don't have be divas on this stuff." DrTesla

Like Azd says, I'm intrigued as to why you changed "creatures without minds" to "non-life". Could t perhaps be the case that your emotional response is bypassing your reason?

What is difference between creatures without minds to non-life? You are basically saying this thing is a collection of cells, a non-person, pseudo life at best.I think majority of fetuses have a heart, nervous system, brain, developed limbs, etc by time they are aborted. Some people even support partial birth abortion and I think some even support abortion outside of the womb when it is botched prior to birth.

Quote

Yup. But THIS thread was about how - for someone who truly believes in a good afterlife - abortion would indeed be the kindest thing, as it would guarantee that "soul" immediate and eternal happiness in the afterlife. It would eliminate all the troubles of this world, and remove the danger that soul would be led astray and end up in eternal torment. Hence the question "Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?"

Seems like a weird and creepy thing to say, especially since you don't believe in the afterlife. It does seem like religious people live in your brain, rent free. Or maybe you are looking for ways to assuage your guilt. I always thought the line was "I personally think abortion is wrong, but......" This seems to be "I think abortion is pretty awesome because......."

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"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. " NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business. We don't have be divas on this stuff." DrTesla

Also, just to add: most people are against abortion. But "abortion" isn't about abortion. It's about telling a girl/woman that they don't know what to do with their bodies but this group over here does. It's politics and control.

-Nam

The fetus isn't the woman's body. That is why this is a controversial subject. If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ, pretty sure nobody would care.

You are one of the most inanely stupid people I have come across in a long time. Please go to the edge of this website, and jump off.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

The fetus isn't the woman's body. That is why this is a controversial subject. If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ, pretty sure nobody would care.

That's the point, DrTroll. A person, even a woman, should have the right to have something removed from her own body if she wants. You are saying she should be forced to give birth. And given that carrying a child to term is 14.6 times more likely to result in the woman's death than an abortion, your position is morally unjustifiable.[1]

The fetus isn't the woman's body. That is why this is a controversial subject. If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ, pretty sure nobody would care.

That's the point, DrTroll. A person, even a woman, should have the right to have something removed from her own body if she wants. You are saying she should be forced to give birth. And given that carrying a child to term is 14.6 times more likely to result in the woman's death than an abortion, your position is morally unjustifiable.[1]

well to be fair, I will support abortion if the mother will perform it herself. I think right now it is like going to the dentist for these women.

But it isn't true abortion is safe and there is a strong possibility the woman ends up sterilized and other problems, although it wouldn't be that bad if they were sterilized given they wouldn't be able to abort future babies. lolMost abortion doctors seem kind of shady like that guy in PA who is going to jail. Doesn't seem like any top doctor would want to abort fetuses all day.

I think most people will give exceptions for women who were raped / incest/ possible death of mother in childbirth. etc

Abortion really is the civil rights issue of our generation, much like slavery and segregation were civil rights issues of previous decades. History will remember us for what we do.

I didn't say it was safe. I said a woman is 14 times more likely to die carrying an infant to term than she is having an abortions. But relatively speaking, it is extremely safe. I linked NIH data. Data is what counts.

and there is a strong possibility the woman ends up sterilized and other problems,

what exactly is a "strong possiblity"? give me data and back it up with a reliable source. The blaze, fox "news" and anti-abortion organizations do not qualify. Not coincidentally, those are the only places I have found that suggest abortions regularly cause sterilization. The mayo clinic site says nothing about it, suggesting that it is a remote possiblity.

I have reports that say illegal abortions cause sterilization, but nothing about propers ones done in a clinic.

Many people consider me a mean, vile asshole. And I agree with them: I am those things from time to time but in saying that: you're worse than I am, people like you are worse than I am.

I have charm, you do not. When I read your posts I see an unintelligent Neanderthal-but then I think: I am insulting the Neanderthal.

Any longer of reading your posts my Warning level just may go up.

-Nam

I debate ideas. Personality stuff I leave to Dr. Phil.

Did you fight in Vietnam? If so, I thank you for your service.

You don't debate anything. This is you:

"I am right, you are wrong. Everything you say to me I ignore because I am right, and you are wrong. I may be close-minded but I know the truth because I am right, and you are wrong. I have a huge mancrush on Behe because I am right, and you are wrong. I know science is a fallacy because I am right, and you are wrong. Ha Ha Ha because I am right, and you are wrong. I post irrefutable evidence by biased people because I am right, and you are wrong. ID is not Creationism even though you proved it is because I am right, and you are wrong..."

That's not debating. When you debate a position you argue the good/bad points. With people like you, it's the same as talking to a wall: no reply back.

Moron.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Sure they would. The important thing is to make sure that the woman is punished for having non-procreative sex. It's a religious thing. Unwanted child-birth is a convenient, "natural" punishment. This is why anti-abortion folks so often talk about how the woman needs to be held accountable for her actions (ie. having sex) and should have to face the consequences. It's about retribution against her. The pregnancy is merely an effective tool for achieving this.

You are just making crap up--have you ever spoken to any women about their abortions? The medical statistics and the anecdotal evidence do not support your statements. Most elective abortions happen at the same time most miscarriages happen-- in the first three months. There are not very many women having elective abortions at 6 months or more into the pregnancy! Late abortions are most often for health reasons and are tragic for all concerned, because that woman wanted the child, maybe had names picked out, had bought baby clothes.

I have known several women who had elective abortions.[1] Women who choose abortion have different life circumstances and different reasons for having an abortion. What they all have in common was, at that point in her life she did not want to have a baby.

Maybe she had several other kids to raise and could not face another pregnancy; maybe she was a drug addict; maybe she was a child prostitute pregnant by her pimp; maybe she was homeless and living on the street; maybe she was in her 40's and had health problems; maybe she had two part-time jobs but no insurance; maybe she was raped by her mother's boyfriend; maybe she was undocumented and was afraid of losing her job; maybe she was just plain mentally messed up--but together enough to know she should not have a baby.

Or maybe she was a stupid, silly over-sexed slut who dresses like a video ho and has drunken one-night stands with different men every night--isn't that the stereotype? Scheduling her monthly abortion between her hair and nail appointments. If you think women are so unthinking and careless-- you should not trust them to properly care for a pregnancy, let alone care for a child. What would you do with such a woman-- imprison her and force her to give birth and then take away the child? And do it every time she gets pregnant? Or would you seriously force her to be sterilized?

I have known women who have had children. Some were the same women who had the abortions. So, if you want to demonize women who have had abortions, there are a lot of good loving moms and grandmas out there waiting for you to call them nasty names because of the baby they decided not to have. And with 7 billion people and counting, why make women who don't want babies have them? Women are not just baby-making factories for other people who want to adopt.

Women do not make the decision to have either a child or an abortion lightly. Being pregnant is a big deal for most women. Having an abortion is a big deal for most women. Having a child is a big deal for most women. Having a miscarriage is a big deal for most women--and about 25% of all pregnancies are lost to miscarriage.

You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. No shady abortion doctor could perform a million abortions in his lifetime. God is therefore a way shadier character than any abortion doctor--he performs millions of abortions on pregnant women every day, often under unsanitary and dangerous conditions. Sometimes god throws in the woman's life as well. When a woman loses a pregnancy and wanted the baby, well, that's an unwanted godly abortion.

I have much more respect for the "seamless garment" anti-abortion folks-- the ones I know are Catholic nuns who work in women's shelters and orphanages. They are feminists in favor of universal health care and social welfare programs, they support child care and family leave, in other words, they try to make the world a better place for the kids who are born. They are environmentalists who realize that more births will put much more pressure on the planet, so we will have to conserve like crazy to make room for the millions of additional people. They lobby against the death penalty. And they do not make any exceptions for rape or incest-- I agree with that, because abortions should not be based on how the fetus got inside the woman.

If people want there to be no abortions, they can at least be rational about the consequences. I suggest you retract your statement that women have abortions with no more concern than a visit to the dentist. Because you do not know what you are talking about.

Sure they would. The important thing is to make sure that the woman is punished for having non-procreative sex. It's a religious thing. Unwanted child-birth is a convenient, "natural" punishment. This is why anti-abortion folks so often talk about how the woman needs to be held accountable for her actions (ie. having sex) and should have to face the consequences. It's about retribution against her. The pregnancy is merely an effective tool for achieving this.

Fetuses react violently when they are being aborted. They seem to be feeling something, I assume pain.

So you're not against abortion up to the fetal stage, then.

I'm not necessarily against the morning after pill but that seems preferable to waiting several weeks for the fetus to develop and then putting it down. I have heard the morning after pills can be dangerous for the woman, I think. I don't know much about those, but it doesn't seem like the majority of women who get pregnant think they will get pregnant before they do get pregnant. So the morning after pill isn't (probalby) a big factor in this abortion debate.

I think we ought to look at at least banning women from multiple abortions. I bet 50 percent of abortions are by repeat offenders because how hard it is to use birth control accurately. LOL

Given partial birth abortions and even post-birth abortions like that bill Obama supported in Illinios are legal and Democrats don't want those banned, it is kind of silly to talk about us banning abortions earlier on. LOL We have a long way to go. I think we hvae done a good job in make our case because the issue is almost 50-50 now and the abortion crowd (Democrats, essentially) has the media in their pocket.

lol, yeah it is punishment to force you to have a precious baby. That's a decent punishment by historical standards. When Hitler was forcing women into gas chambers, they probably shuddered at the thought of being forced to give birth to a child that resulted from consenusal sex, instead. lol

You guys have to make the women out like victims but the baby is the victim. Now, I understand women have some worries about how to take of the baby and all that but I guarantee you if you go down to a church or a charity, etc, and tell them you are thinking about aborting your baby then those people are going to find a way to raise money for you to take care of the baby if it is just about money. So nobody is your enemy.

And both the man and the woman are reponsible for the baby because pregnancy is always a risk of having sex. Women shouldn't have sex with men they don't love and would be willing to raise a child with IMO. Obviously women have the bigger responsiblity in this because they are only ones who get pregnant. We can't do anything about who gets pregnant. I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business. We don't have be divas on this stuff.

Abortion isn't a religious thing because religion is about the afterlife and beliefs about God or no God. Thou Shalt Not Kill seems to be something most atheists agree with outside of guys like Stalin.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 04:50:26 PM by DrTesla »

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"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. " NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business. We don't have be divas on this stuff." DrTesla

but that seems preferable to waiting several weeks for the fetus to develop and then putting it down.

Waiting several weeks before putting down a fetus is biologically impossible. It is not yet called a fetus after several weeks. It is only called a fetus after about 2 months, so it is impossible for a fetus to be terminated merely several weeks after a pregnancy begins.

Did you mean something other than "fetus" when you said "fetus"? And if so, then why didn't you use that term instead of "fetus"?

I don't know much about those, but it doesn't seem like the majority of women who get pregnant think they will get pregnant before they do get pregnant. So the morning after pill isn't (probalby) a big factor in this abortion debate.

It is important on principle, because it is the earliest form of abortion that can be performed. Whether or not someone is morally against it as well reveals a great deal about the motivations behind their position.

What does that have to do with your desire to punish women for their sexual crimes in your religion?

u don't think there is any chance it is just people think the fetus is alive? I knew young women who thought what Michael Vick did to those dogs was sadistic but they also support abortion. To me, that is a disconnect, Orwellian, even.

I don't think most people care who other people are having sex with. Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something. lol i'd like to punish her with my baby. lol

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"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. " NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business. We don't have be divas on this stuff." DrTesla