The arrogance an ignorance of americans on this website that think americans make up the larger proportion of skydivers in the world because a few dozen post whores form america make up the majority of the posts on this website, astounds me.

Again, the number of americans on this site is not the controlling factor. How about the fact that we have the longest history of sport skydiving, and equipment manufacturing and innovation, or is pointing that out just being arrogant.

The problem is not that I'm opposed to other countries, it's just that you are so jacked up on the NZ way, which everyone will admit is far from the norm in any other part of the world. When that's pointed out to you, you respond thusly -

Quote:

What you describe is FAR from normal. And a person that goes through a program like you describe might be ready at 100 jumps.... But that does not mean the normal average jumper would be.

It's pretty normal around there? Fine, if that's the card you want to play, I have to point out that you're talking about a literal drop of water out of the sea of skydivers.

How many fun jumpers are there in your counrty, and by that I mean people (unlike you) who start jumping as a recreation, and not for a job? Nowhere else in the world do people 'take up' jumping as a job and do so with a structured training course. To use the people who do as any sort of yardstick for everyone else is retarded.

So what is the fun jumper population in NZ? How many of them do you know, and have tracked their progress as they learn to jump? How long you spent in any one place to even watch a jumper progress through several years in the sport?

I've been jumping at the same 2 or 3 local DZs for the last 16 years and watched between 20 and 30 new jumpers enter the sport each year. That's me at seasonal DZs that are only open 8 months out of the year. Take some of the other posters here who jump year round, and have also spent a decade or more in one location watching jumpers grow and develop. Between me and them, we're talking about watching literally 100's of jumpers from day one move through the sport. Are there even that many sport jumpers (non-professional) in NZ.

Again, pardon me for not using that as the yardstick to measure the rest of the much bigger picture.

Actually , I am merley pointing out that myself and many thousands of other skydiver from around the world are subject to different rules and regulations to america.

The arrogance an ignorance of americans on this website that think americans make up the larger proportion of skydivers in the world because a few dozen post whores form america make up the majority of the posts on this website, astounds me.

Yes there are alot of jumpers in the USA and there are a high proportion of americans on this website, but that does not mean the rest of the world should be excluded.

There are a couple of hundred more DZ's in europe alone as there are in the USA. Remember that.

This is an international website.

*I* know all that... It seems you only think your opinion matters however.

Thinking only your situation and experience should count is showing arrogance.... No matter what Country you're from.

Let it go, ryhs. The skygods posting here don't get it and never will.

What will people not get?

1. That NZ has a totally different program? 2. That a person who takes classes and focuses on something is not the norm for the rest of the skydiving population? 3. That with proper training almost anything can be done... But that does not mean it should be the standard WITHOUT the training?

I don't know you, nor do I know anything about you. But, based on this post, I have to say that you're really sounding like a hypocrite.

I'm tired of hearing complaints about "arrogant Americans" stemming from the fact that, sometimes, things are done differently in the US than they are done in other places. Combine that with the influence that the US seems to have on sports, international policy, etc etc and suddenly people think that Americans are all elitist cowboys bent on destroying the paradigms abroad. Well, we're not. The only arrogance is coming from those who are so opposed to learning about the US way of life, or to even making the slightest effort to understand it.

I've been abroad. I've spent months in France, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Canada, and Mexico. I found that people, no matter where you are, are all the same. We all want the same things, we all smile when we laugh, and we all want to live when we skydive. How it happens, and where the rules come from is moot.

I'm tired of hearing complaints about "arrogant Americans" stemming from the fact that, sometimes, things are done differently in the US than they are done in other places. Combine that with the influence that the US seems to have on sports, international policy, etc etc and suddenly people think that Americans are all elitist cowboys bent on destroying the paradigms abroad. Well, we're not. The only arrogance is coming from those who are so opposed to learning about the US way of life, or to even making the slightest effort to understand it.

And not the oposng attitude that the US way is the best and only way that has been around the longest as america has contributed so much for the sport, and our world and our culture and has never overstepped the boundries.

I know all americans are not like that, I have many american friends, and in general americans have great personalities and morals.

Unfortunately however a few have decided that america is elite and anything less than the US standard is inadequate, unsafe and foolosh.

This pisses me off, and I may have overreacted a little but hey, I am allowed, am I not?

I'm sure if you met me in person you would have better first impression, it seems I am constantly being bombarded by bigotry here, and as much as it anoys me and leads to a reaction, I learn alot from these conversations, and I am sure I am not the only one.

The ratio of sport and commercial skydiving here is completely different to the USA.

Yes we do shitloads of tandems, yes there are not that many sport skydivers and not all of them work in the industry.

There are about 100,000 tandems performed here annually give or take, most likely more these days (the growth is not slowing any). ...

Wow man, you really need to chill out on the crusade. I don't think most people are being arrogant at all about this subject. It's pretty clear that you're only interested in defending your national diploma training system. What I don't get is why you think that things that apply to people in that program to apply to the skydiver in general.

Also, I don't know, 100k is a lot, but like.. honestly the top 10 dz's in the US likely do that when put together. (Based on what I know about some operations). That doesn't even count all the mid-sized and small dropzones.

If you want to argue over the fact that your country is better than mine or whatever, I could care less. What I don't like having to read is posts that Average Joe Skydiver should strap on a camera helmet and jump with tandems at 100 jumps. A lot of your posts portray that picture and every time some new skydiver reads that here in the states who doesn't know that you mean that a skydiver going through an advanced training program should do that, some poor schumk aff instructor/S&TA/DZO is gonna have a pissed off newbie or a dead/injured newbie or a dead/injured by-standard. Don't you get that?

1. That NZ has a totally different program? 2. That a person who takes classes and focuses on something is not the norm for the rest of the skydiving population? 3. That with proper training almost anything can be done... But that does not mean it should be the standard WITHOUT the training?

Sheesh.

We ave established that the USPA reccomendations are somewhat different to the NZ rules.

that is clear.

What is forgotten is the Australians, South Africans, Canadians, Russians, Ukranians, and whoever else has different rules for jumping a camera, deserve a voice too.

My point that seemed to be missed, is that even though the USA has a much higher proportion of jumpers than probably every other country in the world, those other countires as a whole represent much more of the global skydiving comunity than the USA ever will.

These people should be included here and and if they were, we would probably see more traffic from them in the future.

In reality, if someone that experiences a plethora of posts that contradict what they experience in their own country then they are not likely to take what they read here seriously. Such as myself.

That is a shame.

When they explain that things are different and then go on to be ridiculed and insulted by americans that seem to misunderstand that america does not represent the world and that many many thousands of people have, and continue to go through progressions that include jumping cameras from about 100 jumps, for example.

Unfortunately however a few have decided that america is elite and anything less than the US standard is inadequate, unsafe and foolosh.

This pisses me off, and I may have overreacted a little but hey, I am allowed, am I not?

I agree that there a few who cover the rear window of their pickup truck with a banner of the US flag and tout the supremacy of the US, and I further agree that it is annoying, culturally insensitive, and pretty embarrassing. I totally empathize with you and I think you have every right to express yourself in that capacity.

However, I'm not convinced that it's a purely American phenomenon.

I'll simply say that I do not believe the US methodologies to be better than those in NZ, or anywhere else for that matter. With that said, I'll also say that I don't think that the methodologies in NZ are better than those in the US.

Back in December, when I was in Sebastian, I was jumping with a FRIEND who was flying a GoPro (it wasn't even me flying it). And by "jumping with," I mean we were on the same load- I don't have my A yet.

My friend asked me a few times to check to make sure the light was blinking on his GoPro and that he was recording. Wouldn't you know it, with all that checking I forgot to buckle my helmet on, and lost it when I dove out the door. I blame the GoPro for distracting me, and myself for letting it.

Amazingly!! The helmet was recovered by a security guard, and didn't have a single scratch on it after falling 14,000 feet. Four days later it was on my head while I was snowboarding in Vermont.

My friend asked me a few times to check to make sure the light was blinking on his GoPro and that he was recording. Wouldn't you know it, with all that checking I forgot to buckle my helmet on, and lost it when I dove out the door. I blame the GoPro for distracting me, and myself for letting it.

I blame you man - I would delete that post, wtf. Next we'll be saying that the first [swoop] death of 2011 was caused by too much experience, but let's be abrasive around distinctions without a difference, eg. camera flying jump #'s lol.

>My point that seemed to be missed, is that even though the USA has a >much higher proportion of jumpers than probably every other country in >the world, those other countires as a whole represent much more of the >global skydiving comunity than the USA ever will.

>These people should be included here and and if they were, we would >probably see more traffic from them in the future.

They are free to join. Since the US has more skydivers than any other country does, most of the people here are from the US.

I think everybody needs to relax and go jump. Follow the rules in whatever country you are jumping in. Really listen to the recommendations and suggestions others make, possibly to prevent a bad situation they have seen before. But don't always take everything you hear for gospel.

I blame you man - I would delete that post, wtf. Next we'll be saying that the first [swoop] death of 2011 was caused by too much experience, but let's be abrasive around distinctions without a difference, eg. camera flying jump #'s lol.

Jeff

wait... what? lol, not following you.

Now you know why I used the qualifier "sheepishly," haha. I'm not proud of it, but hopefully that little lesson can help somebody else!

I blame you man - I would delete that post, wtf. Next we'll be saying that the first [swoop] death of 2011 was caused by too much experience, but let's be abrasive around distinctions without a difference, eg. camera flying jump #'s lol.

Jeff

wait... what? lol, not following you.

Now you know why I used the qualifier "sheepishly," haha. I'm not proud of it, but hopefully that little lesson can help somebody else!

I agree that there a few who cover the rear window of their pickup truck with a banner of the US flag and tout the supremacy of the US, and I further agree that it is annoying, culturally insensitive, and pretty embarrassing. I totally empathize with you and I think you have every right to express yourself in that capacity.

However, I'm not convinced that it's a purely American phenomenon. Smile