ok. so ive reached a point in my path where i really want to know the facts from PRACTITIONERS of various types of "magic".

Has ANYONE honestly gotten ANY results from Wicca, enochian majick, etc....? If so...why is it kept a secret? in these times...more than any other...with vampire movies, black magic cults,whatever...if anybody actually has seen results wouldnt it be sort of an obligation to mankind to repruduce those results? end religious wars, bickering and all that?

ive only seen copies of the "libre loagaeth" online. but if it were truly translated to Dee and Edwards in, 49 tongues and 49 voices, and some of it were translated backwards...couldnt we (yes....i am IN all the way100%) find 49 people to recite the forbidden sections forward/ backward whatever. and make this shit happen and SHOW not talk about or whisper about bug SHOW the world this?

so since nobody has ever undertook the task of doing so...i openly invite anyone to help or guide me. I will continue my research regardless...but so far...it all seems like a crock of shit. in fact...the more i read...the more im simply leaning toward Atheism. i cant quite belive in NOTHING...but whats out there seems to be bullshit.

any snotty comments (joking) seriously...any help would be appreciated.

I am taking my time away for study, but couldn’t resist putting something in here - definitely a work in progress.

Basically I am a tentative student, an advocate, and an amateur participant in the Godgame.

I like playing chess with stone cold figures; I like creating and projecting designs, blueprints and etchings; I like building divine architecture from a menagerie of perfect tools and from boxes full of flawless objects and beautiful odds and ends.

I like reflections, surfaces, planes, angles, shapes, spaces, environments, objects and pieces and how everything can fit together to build a total picture.

I am assuming that you are drawing a distinction between Lesser Magic, or Lesser Black Magic (LM or LBM) on the one hand; and Greater Magic, or Greater Black Magic (GM or GBM) on the other.

I am assuming that you are wondering how GM or GBM works, and in fact whether it works at all.

LM or LBM works, without a shadow of a doubt, provided the magician is properly trained and actually knows what they are doing.

LM or LBM will work if the magician is utilising the classic ‘Command to Look,’ within a universe of formalised vision, constructed according to Mortensen’s principles.

LM or LBM will work if the magician appreciates that the carnal nature will always out and tailors his or her lesser magic with this principle in mind - 'the Law of the Forbidden' instantly crops here, for me, in this space.

LM or LBM will work if one has carefully studied mentalism and stage magical principles and applies them with care and common sense.

LM or LBM will work if the magician has an understanding of space and spatial concepts, such as Panopticism etc. and how those concepts condition behaviour.

LM or LBM will work if the magician can determine objects or states of affairs as signs, subject to semiotic structural rules, and hence potentially open to reading manipulation and particular meaning creation.

Anyway the list goes on and on with LM or LBM.

GM or GBM is a different proposition.

Assume you occupy viewpoint A. From this unique place in the world, you maintain a particular viewpoint on the world and the elements within that world.

That particular viewpoint may involve you maintaining a moral and conceptual framework for making sense of that world, and the way its particular elements interact: things in that world mean something to you, and have their place in your order of things. Experience has taught you something about this world and your study and learning have also assisted you in making sense of it.

You perform a successful black magical ritual. The tools you employ, the litany you speak, the key you call hold absolute value to you, within the ritual.

You now occupy viewpoint B. From this unique place in the world, you maintain a particular viewpoint on the world and the elements within that world.

Viewpoint B is different to viewpoint A and so all of the relations and all of the elements which previously constituted the order of things for you may have all changed as well, or at least changed somewhat.

You have now rearranged the tools. You reinvest them with meaning - you touch and mould their being-for-you.

GM or GBM is a serious business, it is a fucking bomb, and should rarely be touched. Serious black magician’s only use this stuff when they are developing a major viewpoint, or else disclosing an essential truth, or looking for some serious assistance.

Assume for the sake of the argument that you occupy viewpoint A and you view yourself as a carnal one – dimensional machine of sorts. Imagine that you view your world as strictly material and subject to some sort of mechanics. You yourself just act and react to stimulus.

You perform the ritual.

You now occupy viewpoint B. Your viewpoint has been changed and you have manipulated your world, but something has been disclosed to you. Your viewpoint has changed, but something else has been revealed. You realise a great truth.

The being of what can be sensed is disclosed as perfect and available to you.

Your GM or GBM has determined your utter distinction from this objective world or universe, and it has set up this world as an immense resource of perfection for you to play with.

You radiate a personal reality of sorts.

A portion of this design or this viewpoint will impact upon the objective universe provided it is a modest and feasible attempt at transfer. I have seen it happen, I have made it happen.

I will end this probably cryptic piece of shit with a reminder that the functioning of magic can be related to a combination lock. If all of the tumblers are in their correct position then the lock will open. If A, B, C, D are in place, then the correct application of E will line all the elements up and the lock will open.

If you want further study material, than check out Black Magic by Michael Aquino on his website and LaVey’s books as well and any other worthwhile stuff.

Mankind has been practicing magic for over 10,000 years in 10,000 different varieties. Wars and bickering are simply part of the agenda. And if it could easily be "proven" to the world, it already would have been.

The fact is, testing magic according to the principles of empirical science is a futile effort. Thousands of grimoires have been written on the subject, all promising step-by-step results that any peasant could repeat. In the modern day, I have encountered people who swore they really spoke with angels, or summoned spirits to "full physical manifestation". And endless anecdotal evidence of love-spells and death-curses that REALLY did work, because this one time when this one person... et cetera et cetera.

I can't relate to such people, and I can't believe them, because I have never had any such experiences. Maybe they're just liars, deluded, or simply exaggerating their claims. Or maybe I really am, as they say, just a muggle who doesn't have whatever magical senses they do.

In any case, it doesn't bother me.

I've developed my own working concept of God and Satan largely free from the trappings of conventional "magick". My advice? Throw nearly everything you know about occultism out the window. Look at nature in its full, unbridled rawness, free of human abstractions. Reconstruct your view of the esoteric from the ground up. Where you go from there is entirely your own path.

i appreciate the time it took to write all of that...but it still doesnt answer my question.

maybe im too blunt. but... if i went to church and saw a priest conjur and interact with an angel... welll i guess i would believe in all this religious bullshit. if i saw a dark magician cojur and interact with a demon...same thing.... but to this day... i dont know of anyone who has done either.

my question was....has anyone out there seen this. and how. and why is it such a secret? conjur a demon ill help. ill do it at a church. whatever. but so far all ive ever seen or heard is what COULD be done. the bible? please. god ran out of shit to talk about 2000 years ago? osiris just said screw it? zeus? im not picky. but its all srories. bullshit stories to pacify a long deep rooted fear in human subconscious...fear of time. timerunning out. and whats gonna happen when it does.

my writing and viewpoint isnt nearly as well spoken and eliquent as the response i got but....the point isnt to bury simple questions under heavy words. my point is...why the hell are we still in the dark with belief if theres proof. and if theres no proof...then what the hell are we doing. why are we behaving at all? because we'll go to hell...heaven..cmon. meet my ex wife. excuse me but screw hell. put someone in a rom with her for eternity....thats scary... (im kidding but really....with no ultimate reward or pu ishment....whos rules are we folowing? ours? and who makes ours?)

“OCCULTISM”- by Michael A. Aquino VI°The Scroll of Set, August `993Temple of Set

Over the last 27 years of the Ćon of Set we have come a long way in terms of the occult arts and sciences. Much of our Church of Satan period was devoted to separating sense from nonsense - both in terms of old/traditional occultism and in the current context of pseudosciences and “new age” occult interests and fads. Whatever else may be said about him, Anton LaVey deserves credit for putting the torch to “occult” concepts that were nothing more than lingering relics from medieval nonsense - and looking instead for authentic and practical principles of a “hidden/forbidden” nature.

By X/1975 we had pretty much sorted through the “old” occult - at least within the Judćo/Christian tradition, which was conclusively exposed as nothing more than imperfect plagiarism from pre-existing Mediterranean religions and philosophies. Into the sewer it went in its entirety - save that we chose to use some of its “demonic” symbols for our own illustrative, artistic, or sometimes mischievously-entertaining purposes.

Here I should add that this was by no means a simple, one-time operation. Periodically we have had to re-flush the toilet because the contents of the bowl keep backing up. There are a few obvious reasons for this:

(1) The Temple of Set exists primarily in countries and cultures in which J/C is not only the dominant social religion, but also the tacitly-acknowledged basis for civic morality generally. Hence the prescriptions of the Enlightenment’s social-contract philosophers for some blend of pulp-feed Christianity as a way to keep the masses quiet and obedient.

(2) Persons who enter the Temple of Set generally come from some degree of J/C psychological conditioning in their youth and adulthood. They bring J/C values and precepts along with them, either consciously or unconsciously, either positively [”I don’t have to abandon all my good moral principles, do I?] or negatively [”I can hardly wait to get into the Temple so I can get even with that hateful, hypocritical J/C which has wrecked my life to date!"]. Such persons tend to see the Temple of Set through J/C “glasses” and to conduct themselves within it accordingly.

(3) As a religion designed to appeal to and control stupid and/or uneducated people, J/C has the best “Marvel Comics” imagery. It is much easier and more emotionally gratifying to construct fantasies, art, and pageantry based upon the well-known “toons” of Satan, Jesus, JHVH and other J/C characters than upon Ahura Mazda, Quetzalcoatl, etc. And of course in dramatic relations with profane [J/C-trained] society, it is far easier to impress or shock someone by saying “I’m a Satanist” [which makes people scream and run] instead of saying “I’m a Quetzalcotalian” [which makes people just blink and stare].

So there are various reasons why all of us, myself included, tend to lapse into J/C imagery from time to time. It’s not a problem as long as we know what we’re doing and why, and don’t allow ourselves to be governed by it, either consciously or unconsciously.

Take Enochiana as an example. This was a system developed by John Dee based firmly on J/C imagery: angels, demons, and a Hebrew Cabalistic schematic of “creation”. If you believe in it as John Dee wrote it down, you’re a good little amateur Hebrew.

First Mathers, then Crowley, then LaVey saw it for what it was: a collection of confusing gobbledegook which they could reword here and there and use as an LBM device to impress their followers. And so it did. People would read the Satanic Bible and say of the first half, “Yeah, he’s got a point, but all this social critique stuff doesn’t look very ‘occult’ to me.” Then they’d reach the Enochian Keys, be properly mystified by both the Enochian and the English versions, and say, “Wow, this is spooky & weird stuff. Apparently he does know something ‘occult’ that the rest of us don’t.”

And of course the “Dumbo’s feather” principle [cf. Black Magic in the Crystal Tablet] applied beautifully. We dutifully used the Enochian Keys in C/S rituals and they did exactly what we expected them to do [i.e. what Anton said they would do!] without realizing that they held no intrinsic power at all, but instead served as “keys (apt name!) to unlock” certain dormant/latent powers within our own beings.

The Word of Set Working with the Keys was thus a “pure” working with them, in which the original Dee “Enochian” and “translations” were used as a “magical trigger” to get at a coherent reality underlying Dee’s J/C-filtered thoughts. [For a detailed discussion of the principles involved, see Plato’s Meno and other dialogues concerning the recollective basis of abstract knowledge (anamnesis).]

The same holds true for any other “system” of magic, whether a poem, painting, incantation, Tarot reading, I Ching wand-casting, or whatever: It is a “trigger” or “key” to unlock, inspire, or activate a certain power, level of consciousness, and/or mode of existence within yourself or others. Dumbo’s feather. As long as you understand this, you won’t go wrong with magic [or make a fool - or tool - of yourself].

At our present point in social time - the 1990s - what does it mean to be an “occultist”?

It should mean what it always has: to seek after, possess, and apply secret knowledge [for whatever purpose]. Think about that. Think about how you might go about doing it [and I’m not talking about going to the “New Age” section of your local bookstore].

Secret knowledge is either (a) stuff that exists but hasn’t been discovered or made coherent yet, or (b) stuff that exists but has been suppressed or distorted by people with the power to do so, because it conflicts with their interests. Sometimes occult knowledge is a mixture of both (a) and (b).

Books get on the Temple of Set’s reading list because they contain (a) or (b) information. But the reading list, like everything else about the Temple of Set, is a guide, a nudge in the right direction: a tool. You can find authentic occult knowledge almost anywhere - although never where the public is told that it exists.

Reality within reality. This is why the Temple of Set is at once a simple thing [in that we have a commitment to speaking the truth plainly] and a complicated thing [in that simple truths, when examined carefully, often contain a sub-universe of factors which aren’t nearly so simple].

Another aspect of this: the role of “religion” in one’s intellectual state of being.I see every letter that comes to the Executive Director requesting admission to the Temple of Set. Some are very impressive. Some include a comment something like this:

Quote:

I was raised in Christianity but became disillusioned with it. So I tried Buddhism, Wicca, blah blah, and finally I found the Temple of Set, and this is clearly the religion for me!

That’s nice, but it implies that the Temple of Set occupies roughly the same niche in one’s mental makeup that the ding-dong religions did; we just do it better. Consider this:

The premise of all ding-dong religions is that you start with them and allow rational, logical, and scientific knowledge to “fill in the cracks” where they are conspicuously inadequate, or where their doctrines are at flagrant odds with common sense.

The Temple of Set is 180° away from this. To “do the Temple of Set right”, first you start with a sound rational, logical, and scientific knowledge base - both social and technical. You keep “religion” the hell out of this area [except in your analysis of social phenomena as a tool for popular control - see above].

Once you have explained everything you can using rational, logical, and scientific tools, and see that there are some things “left over”, then you are at the point where you need to construct a tool to (a) make those things comprehensible to you and (b) perhaps apply some of them to your interaction with existence. Then and only then should you bring the Temple of Set into your life.

Remember how we keep harping on the Temple of Set’s being only a tool? Well, this is when you apply that tool - to address those rarefied subjects that ordinary tools cannot.

“Metaphysical philosophy” (or GBM) is this tool used for understanding and analysis.

“Magic” (or LBM) is this tool used to affect your environment.

Because this is a realm of existence which is incompletely and imperfectly known, the tool to render it comprehensible and controllable is also imperfect. It works well in some ways, not so well in others. It also varies from individual to individual, from perspective to perspective, from perception to perception. This is why the “same” Temple of Set appears to be so many different things to different Setians.

Sum-up time:

(1) Recognize your pre-Setian conditioning for what it is, good or bad. Bring it to the surface. Keep the good [without apology for its source]. Chuck the bad.

(2) As a Setian, strive to control yourself for consciously, carefully, and deliberately-decided [by you!] reasons and goals.

(3) Be a real occultist.

(4) In the pyramid of your consciousness, put religion on the top, not the bottom.

That's the thing with magic, rituals, spells etc. there are people who need a proof that convince them to believe in black/white magic. But how can someone prove it? there will always be the sceptical rational people who'd find a reason to this or if not they'd just say it is a coincidence. I don't think rational-only people can relate to the black arts subject. From previous experience people wouldn't even try to understand what you're saying without a proof. And guess what - it is not important what they think! you don't need to convince other and not need to be convinced. you just need to look at your inner self and find your strongest wills and try by symbolic rituals to make them happen. If your will is strong enough and you dedicate 100% of yourself into it, it will work.

My advice is to learn and read more and more about the subject and espouse the idea, concept or philosophy that relates to the inner you. hope you find my answer effective.

It seems as the question you are asking is what is ritual magic used for. Allow me to approach this question from a rational point of view, then a spiritual point of view. Both are simular but have points of view.

1. Looking at Ritual as a form of self-psychology! Ritual can be a outlet for the pent up animal needs one has. This also includes those need other than sex, but sex can be included. This is what is normally seen in individual rituals that are gone over in The Satanic Bible or other forms of ritual in other forms of magical practice. If your very angry with someone, go into the bathroom and cuss out the toilet and flush when your done. Same idea here.

2. Self-transformation Ritual can be done in either a lone setting or group setting. This rituals are used to reprogram ones thinking. This is normally done once a week in group rites. There are also more intense nightly ritual use you can find in books like The Demonic Bible or in Michael Fords writing. Blaspheme Rituals such as the Black Mass helps with type reprogramming if one is so inclined.

3. Ritual can also help you to understand your goals because writing a ritual forces you to see what you want to have happen in your reality. Then you ritualize and visualize what you want to happen. The subconscious gets involved has a direction in which to help you in your goal. Lesser magic is used to attain the goal that you broadcasted in the ritual! Keep in mind that ritual is not prayer and just asking and waiting for things to happen is a poor practice that will lead to nothing and procrastination.

4. Spiritually, ritual can charge the idea of your desire. Asking demons, gods, or other entities to help influence the out come can be practice that folks take on. Please look into the concept of these beings are emotions that you can use to influence others to attain your goal.

Yes, magical practise is an art form. Lesser magic is as well. If you choose to take a hard nose reality based look at magic, this is what is found. If anybody else has any other real experience with demons, angels, or making things appear out of thin air let me know.

_________________________
When you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you.

Leaning toward Atheism is the best thing you can do. You need to re-evaluate what you think about magic. Witches are like ninjas. Yes, I mean that seriously. Ninjas are real, but there are a lot of misconceptions that people hold about them. There are real ninjas and Hollywood ninjas. Hollywood ninjas bear a resemblance to real ninjas, but there are definite differences. In the same way, witches are real but there is a big difference between real witches and Hollywood witches. There is a big difference between real witchcraft and Hollywood witchcraft.

Magic is real and it can change your life, but you need to throw away any unscientific ideas you have about it. Like I said, leaning toward Atheism is the best thing you can do. For starters, read the Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey. It's a great primer for budding magicians, without all the bullshit you'll find in most witchcraft books.

The first principle of witchcraft is that there is no God and you're all alone. Where you go from there is up to you.

Well it's funny that you mention ninjas because how I perceive magick relates to the "nine cuts" (Kuji-kiri) which as I see it is just more or less a focus of energy.

Another thing to keep in mind is something I heard recently in Boyd Rice's documentary when he was talking about his relation to Anton LaVey and Charles Manson. This certainly might hold little to no relevance but apparently Anton did this big "destruction" ritual at some point and then the very shortly after that is when Charles Manson killed Sharon Tate. Who can say whether or not that is actually true or not, but the point is that how in fact it would ever possibly be related to Charles Manson. You can't force someone to do something and magick has never really worked out that way. If that actually happened (I'm not saying it did) then it would very likely be a lot of unfocused energy. I don't know what sort of distance between the two we are talking about here because besides what I have heard in rumors I have not very educated on either subject, be it Charles Manson himself or Anton's practice of black magick. To be frank I have better things to do with my time.

Certainly that holds little to no relevance as I've said but in most cases people choose to believe what they believe or not regardless of any archetype existence. The thing is that most people practice magick than they may be willing to consider, especially christians.

A lot of times magick is just a focus of energy. Someone might focus negative energy into some sort of idol of symbol and then hide it somewhere in their rivals house or job which would radiate the negative energy implanted in it. As I spoke of ninjas that is pretty much what the nine cuts are; little more than a focus of energy and an attempt to identify that energy with a certain purpose, and magick itself works in the same way in my opinion. If we consider this then we can identify magick in any way we desire to but with certain limitations. There are certain things this "energy" cannot do; like take control of the actions of another person. But energy can have the ability to influence other when used properly and christians do this quite often. Christians have their rosary and they have prayers that they use to identify this energy in a more hopeful or positive sense. Black magick works much the same way as do most rituals. We can identify most rituals with whatever our focus would be, thus influencing the focus itself. In this case the focus would be someone's belief in christ or in a pagan sense the meaning and identification of their various pagan gods. I had a girlfriend once who would regularly do rituals to the egyptian god of infinity in order to forgive herself for her desire of this desire to be a god in the past; or at least build as much power and spiritual strength as how she would perceive a god would have. She ended up feeling very guilty about it and the ritual was probably a focus for energy that would radiate something different than what she had been radiating for all those years previous, as well as to radiate an aura of forgiveness that would intentionally make her feel better about herself and her past, and ultimately forget all those things.

In any case there is very little to no way you could actually prove that magick is real or not scientifically. I perceive magick as a focus and identification of energy like I said above, and I don't know how you would manage to prove the existence of such. Even if you did I doubt many people would ever believe you, such as die hard christians that actively hate anyone unlike themselves. Ultimately, as I heard someone else phrase it in the past; "perception is reality and sharing is optional." What reason is there to be so afraid of illusion if it is causing no harm to your life or your person? Obviously some people out there will actively disagree and they are welcome to, just as I am comfortable with my illusions and choose to temporarily believe in them for a time until they become something of a perception based on what for me is then "reality".

(read my introduction if you don't know what I'm talking about here concerning the relation of illusion to reality)

It has actually been quite beneficial to me personally. Although I don't really practice magick anymore but if magick is ever actually as I described it above then it is easy to say that one is practicing such things even without actually being aware of it. If you are very pissed off and start screaming at someone you don't like, then whether you want to admit it or not you are radiating a negative energy which, if absorbed by that person through an object or in that person's body somehow (depending on how it is focused) then that negative energy will have a negative influence on that persons life, even if only to influence various decisions that person makes until the energy is used up or otherwise gone.

But, meh ... I don't really care to be frank. I'm not a witch and I don't practice magick, nor have I ever been a witch. Even if that is true then, as I said, magick is a regular part of our lives even and especially when we choose not to admit it; such as during sexual intercourse for example-- the ultimate outcome being the visual perception and catalyst of both physical and mental pleasure.

Holy cow, that was a long post. Sorry about that. One thing lead to another I suppose. I type pretty fast so it just kind of turned out that way without me realizing it.

I practiced Wicca for 13 years, had ritual with my 'church' on Solar Holidays...Samhain, Equinoxes, Yule, etc.., Lunar occasions...Dark Moons and Full Moons. We worked spells at times.I've done all of this solo too.What I have to say about this subject is ...if you enjoy it and it's meaningful to you...rock on.The validity or effectiveness of such things....I would call subjective.Personally, I really enjoy ritual, that's why I do it...it feels ancient and it's a creative exercise.ps- I would never feel an obligation to share anything with all of mankind.