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Look at [ this video ] of Akuzawa. Can you see the difference between the "wrong" way to do kokyo-ho (0:30) and the "right" way (0:35)?[/list]

Hehe, that's usually what I call ki diarrhea , in other words at 0.30 he's letting the power spill out of his backside, but at 0.35 his hips and shoulders are in line Unless I've missed something, there's no sound so I might be interpreting the vid wrong, kinda have to be there really.

It's really really common to see that happen in aikido when doing tenkan ikkyo, people tend to try to lead uke around with their arse

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Hehe, that's usually what I call ki diarrhea , in other words at 0.30 he's letting the power spill out of his backside, but at 0.35 his hips and shoulders are in line Unless I've missed something, there's no sound so I might be interpreting the vid wrong, kinda have to be there really.

It's really really common to see that happen in aikido when doing tenkan ikkyo, people tend to try to lead uke around with their arse

Hmmmm..... not to take either side, but I don't see Akuzawa doing anything with that bend at .30 other than make the point that he's getting below Uke's force before he uses the ground path to go up Uke's arms. Since he only does it that one time, it's obviously just explicative and not something he commonly does. There's a couple of other things I might nitpick myself, but not when someone is simply trying to discuss and show the various factors that go into an action.

Maybe I'm reading into the Akuzawa clip---easy to do since you can't hear what he's saying---but he shakes his head, so it seems like a negative example. Maybe Rob can jump in and explain what was going on in the clip. But here's what I think he's doing:

1) He's getting under uke's attack (as Mike said).
2) He's bringing his elbows together. This aligns his forearms with his body, which is a pretty strong position. It also has the added benefit of twisting uke's arms out of alignment.
3) Lastly, with his arms "locked" in place, he's using his legs to lift up uke.

This was the way I was taught to execute kokyo-ho. It works. With a little practice, you can lift uke's arms "without any effort" from your upper body.

But it's not internal movement. When Akuzawa does it the second time, you don't see him doing any of the above. He "simply" raises his arms.

Hmmmm..... not to take either side, but I don't see Akuzawa doing anything with that bend at .30 other than make the point that he's getting below Uke's force before he uses the ground path to go up Uke's arms. Since he only does it that one time, it's obviously just explicative and not something he commonly does. There's a couple of other things I might nitpick myself, but not when someone is simply trying to discuss and show the various factors that go into an action.

FWIW

Mike

I see what you mean. Like I said it's easy to misinterpret video (especially with no sound to help). But what I was referring to is something I see all the time in aikido, especially beginners but also in people who have come to aikido from another physical activity that relies on 'conventional strength/power' (it needn't be a martial art). Namely: the tendency to leave your backside behind when moving forwards. Amusingly you also see it when moving backwards, a good example of which would be practicing okuriashi in kendo where people have the same tendency except it appears that they are increasing the gap between their hands and their navel as they move backwards. But it's the same thing. It's most commonly/obviously seen in aikido IME with tenkan ikkyo.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Maybe I'm reading into the Akuzawa clip---easy to do since you can't hear what he's saying---but he shakes his head, so it seems like a negative example. Maybe Rob can jump in and explain what was going on in the clip. But here's what I think he's doing:

1) He's getting under uke's attack (as Mike said).
2) He's bringing his elbows together. This aligns his forearms with his body, which is a pretty strong position. It also has the added benefit of twisting uke's arms out of alignment.
3) Lastly, with his arms "locked" in place, he's using his legs to lift up uke.

This was the way I was taught to execute kokyo-ho. It works. With a little practice, you can lift uke's arms "without any effort" from your upper body.

But it's not internal movement. When Akuzawa does it the second time, you don't see him doing any of the above. He "simply" raises his arms.

Thought I'd clarify this a bit.
Wow...that's an old vid, plus I caught a lot of flak for it cuz of what he said in the vid, lol.

Anyone that understands Japanese and is interested can subscribe to my youtube where it still has the audio in it.
That being said, a quick summary of what he said:

"And when you raise the arms, you don't "haru" or "tense" the fingers like you see some people do in Aikido. Its simply too slow if you do this."

The second example

"You simply raise the arms, everything goes on inside, but especially the backside is important, energy must pass through the back"

He's pretty particular about never "lifting" the Uke using the feet by pushing against the ground with the feet, that implies bracing. Rather you should have your opponent at the moment of contact. You don't have to be physically under them at all to do this, since all the movement/adjustment happens mostly inside the body.

I assume he meant through the back from the feet? Which would be kinda what I was talking about, sticking your backside out tends to stop that happening.

Mike

Yup
And you're on the money about the backside. He was trying to emphasize the exaggeration of the spreading of the fingers though. Saying that unnecessary localized tension is a nono.

Funny thing is, there's a lot of ...Shihan out there (I won't say what style) in magazines like Hiden showing them tensing the small of the back and spreading the fingers as an example of "extending ki"
Of course, everything is open to debate, but I'd forward that this kind of bodymechanic would only slow down transmission...even though it might feel strong initially.

Just to chip in here, I have felt this from Rob when I was in Paris and it is significantly different to how I was taught to do that Kokyo ho exercise within my aikido lineage. As described above: no unecessary wrist movement, no added breath element, 'just relax and move' fantastic and eye opening.

Trying to fit in two hours a day every day of solo exercises, in order to set off down that road: Hard, especially with no feed back available. But no-one said it was gonna be easy.

Is it possible that somewhere along the line, with certain people, the natural spreading/extension/curve of the fingers that happened with "spreading the ki" was replaced by "look how hard I am spreading the ki by extending my fingers!" . . . . ?

Is it possible that somewhere along the line, with certain people, the natural spreading/extension/curve of the fingers that happened with "spreading the ki" was replaced by "look how hard I am spreading the ki by extending my fingers!" . . . . ?

Yeah, I've seen that. It became some sort of postural ritual (and something stiff!!) because the understanding was lost, to some extent. OshinkanYay. But there are a number of martial arts that have developed weird procedures because the original idea got fumbled by one of the leaders. This stuff has centuries of opportunities to get morphed into something else. The classic case I like to think about is how Uechi Ryu karate morphed in a couple of generations from the stuff Uechi learned on mainland and became much harder. Oh well.

Yup
And you're on the money about the backside. He was trying to emphasize the exaggeration of the spreading of the fingers though. Saying that unnecessary localized tension is a nono.

Funny thing is, there's a lot of ...Shihan out there (I won't say what style) in magazines like Hiden showing them tensing the small of the back and spreading the fingers as an example of "extending ki"
Of course, everything is open to debate, but I'd forward that this kind of bodymechanic would only slow down transmission...even though it might feel strong initially.

One of the levels of Tohei's unbendable arm has the tester placing pressure on the fingertips specifically for this point also. Any tension in your fingertips and you'll either fumble the test or your fingers collapse when the test is applied.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

One of the levels of Tohei's unbendable arm has the tester placing pressure on the fingertips specifically for this point also. Any tension in your fingertips and you'll either fumble the test or your fingers collapse when the test is applied.

I think I can, depends on why you're asking really and I suspect even if I answered it just fine you'd say I hadn't. Tell you what, describe the first 5 levels of the unbendable arm test in detail and I'll answer your question Shouldn't be a problem for you seeing as how you're experienced in all this ki soc stuff....

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

I think I can, depends on why you're asking really and I suspect even if I answered it just fine you'd say I hadn't.

Fortunately, I don't have the sort of ethics you're attributing to me. And if you check my record, I can usually answer why and how something is done, without playing games, deleting my posts, going into silence, and so on. This question was for you to answer, not for a question in response as some sort of evasion.

One of the levels of Tohei's unbendable arm has the tester placing pressure on the fingertips specifically for this point also. Any tension in your fingertips and you'll either fumble the test or your fingers collapse when the test is applied.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

Why is that? Can you explain it?

Quote:

Mike Haft wrote:

I think I can, depends on why you're asking really and I suspect even if I answered it just fine you'd say I hadn't. Tell you what, describe the first 5 levels of the unbendable arm test in detail and I'll answer your question Shouldn't be a problem for you seeing as how you're experienced in all this ki soc stuff....

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

Fortunately, I don't have the sort of ethics you're attributing to me. And if you check my record, I can usually answer why and how something is done, without playing games, deleting my posts, going into silence, and so on. This question was for you to answer, not for a question in response as some sort of evasion.

...I had the opportunity to sit on a jujitsu shodan grading panel last year, and even signed the candidate's certificate - right below a Shihan's (from a different ryu) signature - and I'm not even a jujitsu anything, much less an aikido anything. How's that for peer review?

Yeah, but they were like ,"there's a bloke here, his name's Ignatius"
"Yer pullin' me plonker, Ignatius?"
"Yeah, really ,,, Ignatius Teo"
"Blimey that's cool, let's get him to sign the thingummyjig!"

Unlike you, I'm nobody. At least I don't have to share my name with a famous Hollywood namesake. But IIRC, he isn't a comedian, and you shouldn't give up your day job just yet.

FYI, I was personally and formally invited by the jujitsu sensei to sit on the panel. Have you? How about being invited to stand at the head of a jujitsu class (as someone coming from another art altogether), next to two other jujitsu sensei and bow the class in? And have you ever had a jujitsu 7th dan come up to you after a grading and initiate a bow first, and personally thank you for participating on the grading panel?

Unlike you, I'm nobody. At least I don't have to share my name with a famous Hollywood namesake. But IIRC, he isn't a comedian, and you shouldn't give up your day job just yet.

Heh! You sound like you're making passes at another great movie though...which does have its fair share of genuine comedians :-)

Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote:

FYI, I was personally and formally invited by the jujitsu sensei to sit on the panel. Have you? How about being invited to stand at the head of a jujitsu class (as someone coming from another art altogether), next to two other jujitsu sensei and bow the class in? And have you ever had a jujitsu 7th dan come up to you after a grading and initiate a bow first, and personally thank you for participating on the grading panel? And I'm nobody...

Let's look on the bright side---despite their high level of perception, they mistook you for someone else LOL
Or, it's heart-warming that such humility is shown by such reputable representatives of the martial arts community, the most likely pass on that great humility along with great knowledge to their students. What more could society ask for?

Let's look on the bright side---despite their high level of perception, they mistook you for someone else LOL
Or, it's heart-warming that such humility is shown by such reputable representatives of the martial arts community, the most likely pass on that great humility along with great knowledge to their students. What more could society ask for?

Gernot, I like to think it's more about mutual respect and recognition of skill and ability, rather than what art/style, the color or degree of one's belt, or what organization one is affiliated with. And of course, being a nobody in anything, A LOT of humility on my part.