In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46

Who what was the shell?

Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?Seed: I just point to your article.Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46

Who what was the shell?

Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?Seed: I just point to your article.Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?

The shell is the corruptible body.

The fish is Hades/Death.

The seed is Christ.

Funny thing: Jonah was running from God when he landed in that fish, then suddenly, he remembered to pray.

The question is still on the table - "what was His spirit doing" (with scriptural evidence). Molly gave indication scripturally that He was proclaiming victory and releasing prisoners. Is there something more about those scriptures in I Peter that needs to be known? I'll look at them (I think it's a pretty big study though, with various opinions. However, I thinkmuch of the difference of opinion is about whether He suffered in "hell", or rather proclaimed and delivered there ).

Some views.Jesus proclaimed the Gospel not teaching it. Jesus didn't went to meet people but angels that were chained since the day of Noach. Not to teach them but to tell them "Hi dudes I've won!"

Jesus didn't proclaim Himself but trough the spirit.

The people mentioned were regular Jews He preached to in the last 3 years (3 days). Basicly menaing His days on earth were a grave to Him.The mentioning of preaching doesn't mean it happend in the 3 days in the grave.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46

Who what was the shell?

Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?Seed: I just point to your article.Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?

the 2 scriptures were used to attempt to prove soul/spirit sleep.

i'm saying in both instances, there was a burial of something but life inside continued. (seed has outer shell that contains life inside, Jonah's body as an outer shell contained life inside).

either that's a perfect analogy and it means the whole person doesn't die or sleep so debunks soul sleep rather than proves it, or, the analogy is not a complete 1:1 comparison, i.e., there's an analogy to be made and lessons to be learned, but a completely detailed doctrine of soul sleep/not soul sleep cannot be made from it

In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46

Who what was the shell?

Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?Seed: I just point to your article.Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?

The problem is that Jesus said I command you my spirit, gave up the ghost/spirit and similar translations.That sounds like the men burried Jesus empty shell. Meaning the real seed was never in the earth.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

I agree with the Jesus in the tomb, and I've never ever thought otherwise... so I was writing this when I went to post and saw yours Tony, so it flows together. I'd written;

yes, even though Jonah's body was buried, he was still able to commune with God in his spirit.

don't get me wrong..i DON"T believe the spirit is buried in the ground upon death, so that there would be consciousness as Tony said, "buried alive"...i believe it's clear the spirit returns to God, so it ain't in the ground..thankfully!!!! (i'm a bit claustrophobic :) I need to FLY!!!

In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46

Who what was the shell?

Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?Seed: I just point to your article.Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?

the 2 scriptures were used to attempt to prove soul/spirit sleep.

I know. But when we take parallel, pattern, or whatver name you want to give it we need to define how far we can take that pattern. (and why).So I make this simple statement.The story of Jonah proves with 100% certainty/Scriptually Jesus did in no shape or form went to the spirits in prison during those 3 days in the grave/tomb.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

a) proves soul/spirit sleep at allb) is meant to be a complete thesis on what happens to the soul/spirit at death, other thanc) it certainly appears there's internal life remaining - but I DON"T believe those 2 passages explain in totality what that spirit life is doing. IMO, we must look elsewhere for those further details.

So I make this simple statement.The story of Jonah proves with 100% certainty/Scriptually Jesus did in no shape or form went to the spirits in prison during those 3 days in the grave/tomb.

I see it the opposite. I see it only going so far as saying Jesus would be buried as was Jonah (and indicating Jonah still had spirit life inside, although that may not be the point of the scrip), but not explaining at all what Jesus' spirit actually did or didn't do during those 3 days (other than not die or sleep?). I don't think His specific activity is addressed in the Jonah analogy. Again, I believe if that information is available to us, it is to be found elsewhere.

In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46

Who what was the shell?

Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?Seed: I just point to your article.Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?

The problem is that Jesus said I command you my spirit, gave up the ghost/spirit and similar translations.That sounds like the men burried Jesus empty shell. Meaning the real seed was never in the earth.

No, we're kind of mixing everything up between the two examples. Jesus went somewhere where he could preach to others --It says he was dead in the flesh but quickened [that is brought to life] by the Spirit by which he went and preached to the spirits in prison. It's one big run on sentence.

Jesus says I lay down my life and I pick it up again. That's exactly what happened.

Jonah is a bit different. Jonah is not God but he has the seed of Christ [which I guess I could say quickens him to make that connection with God, i.e. to pray].

Done, completed, finished, my mission is over, etc etc.God reacted with an earthquake that opened tombs and resurrected the people inside those tombs (let's ignore if those people lived a decade or still live).I think it was Father's way of saying: Yes Son it's done. It's comple. Great job!When Mary arrived at the tomb there was another earthquake. Was that the moment of Jesus resurrection?I'm not claiming every earthquake is a resurrection but I just wanted to mention it.

So both Father and Son agreed it was finished.That brings me to "tetelestai" A greek work on legal documents that stated all debts are officially paid. "paid in full".Some claim Jesus went to heaven for a short while between meeting Mary and the Apostles (especially Thomas).He went to heaven for priestly duties.But why? Both Father and Son agreed it was done and completed.It's like I have a huge debt. I work very hard and pay my debt. I recieve a document I'm 100% debt free. And then I'm told I need to do more to cancel that debt.Meaning. Jesus died and paid. Father put a huge tetelestai stamp on mankinds debt document. Jesus resurrects. Meets Mary and basicly gets extremely scared because nobody may defile Him before He does His priestly duties in Heaven. What if Mary touched Him (which is my belief)? Would Father rip the debt certicate and shout: Son it's undone. Bad luck. Try again!Nope it was really perfectly done. Father who known no shadow of turning would rip up the document He declared 100% valid 3 days ago?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

don't get me wrong..i DON"T believe the spirit is buried in the ground upon death, so that there would be consciousness as Tony said, "buried alive"...

Good to see you got my point. I was 'affraid' people would just assume it was a funny zombie remark. Well it was but obviously had a much deeper meaning.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

So I make this simple statement.The story of Jonah proves with 100% certainty/Scriptually Jesus did in no shape or form went to the spirits in prison during those 3 days in the grave/tomb.

I see it the opposite. I see it only going so far as saying Jesus would be buried as was Jonah (and indicating Jonah still had spirit life inside, although that may not be the point of the scrip), but not explaining at all what Jesus' spirit actually did or didn't do during those 3 days (other than not die or sleep?). I don't think His specific activity is addressed in the Jonah analogy. Again, I believe if that information is available to us, it is to be found elsewhere.

You took the bait. Like abig bad fish

Jonah was trapped. Really trapped. Didn't sound to happy about it. There is zero indication he left that fish in those 3 days.So my point is: If we have have to take the analogy all the way we should be so fair to also apply that part of both stories.Jonah was totally stuck for 3 days so that tells us about Jesus. He also was totally stuck for 3 days.If that's not the case why? Why we take only a part of the analogy? Am I allowed to remove even more parts? Why? Why not? What are the limits?Jonah was alive and praying. That for example can be used to prove Jesus was praying in the tomb. But if others are allowed to ignore the bit about Jonah being totally trapped why am I not allowed to ignore that part?

I think we agree there are limits to pattern. It's said the only sign given is that of Jonah. Does that mean Jesus was a fraud because He never was inside a big fish but in a luxary tomb? I'm sure everybody answers no to that. Why the pattern suddenly stops there?

Summary: Patterns, yes sure! How far we take them... hummm not that easy!

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground. In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on.

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit". Luke 23:46

Who what was the shell?

Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?Seed: I just point to your article.Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?

The problem is that Jesus said I command you my spirit, gave up the ghost/spirit and similar translations.That sounds like the men burried Jesus empty shell. Meaning the real seed was never in the earth.

No, we're kind of mixing everything up between the two examples.

That's just my point. Selective pick and choose.

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Jesus went somewhere where he could preach to others

Which is your view. A view that the very topic of the thread. Was Jesus really dead? The very thing we are trying to figure out.

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--It says he was dead in the flesh but quickened [that is brought to life] by the Spirit by which he went and preached to the spirits in prison. It's one big run on sentence.

So now, conveniently, we ignore Jonah?

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Jesus says I lay down my life and I pick it up again. That's exactly what happened.

That doesn't prove a thing. He didn't say He will pick it up instantly. Picking up after 3 days is also picking up. Besides of that laying down and picking up is just a figure of speech because Jesus didn't resurrect Himself. The HS did that.

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Jonah is a bit different. Jonah is not God but he has the seed of Christ [which I guess I could say quickens him to make that connection with God, i.e. to pray].

We agree on that. Jonah isn't Father or Son. But if you/anyone is so keen on using certain bits of Jonah's story to support a certain doctrine/view then why not claim Jesus=Jonah.To be clear imo Jesus is NOT Jonah. It just sounds feels like selective reading. Say Jonah's a Jesus' story contain 10 points that form a pattern. We both pick 7 points that (seem to) prove our view. We each ignore 3 different points because <insert convenient argument>.The Jabcat gets involved and he only uses 5 points. Is he more wrong because his view required 5 Scriptual statement to be ignored. Or is he more right because he's more able to ignore non relavant points?Who picked the correct points? Who gave us the autority to discard certain points?

Maybe this is the only implied parallel between the 2 stories:Both were inside a dark place for 3 days and both exited that place alive.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

The book of Hebrews talks about him going to heaven to the real holy of holies and as High Priest, presenting the sacrifice to God, one time, forever.

I was in no way trying to imply He did not do so.

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So this had to happen at some point.

At some point. But when?During those 3 days? I can just as well state after 40 days.

3 days in the grave.Then Jesus walks the earth for another 40 days. 40... that very nice Exodus number. Was Jesus still on the wrong side of the Jordan so to speak?Then finally after 40 days when everybody watched Him going up He crossed the Jordan.Then 10 days later at Pentecost the HS comes as flames.Could it that Jesus performed His Priestly duties you described in those 10 days?10 another special number. The days of Awe. The days between the start of the year and Atonement day.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

No one is using bits of stories to compare Jesus and Jonah. You're the one who's doing that.

Let's look at what Jesus says,

39 But He replied to them, An evil and adulterous generation (a generation [t]morally unfaithful to God) seeks and demands a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

40 For even as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, Someone more and greater than Jonah is here!

Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].

But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].

But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?

He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured and was liberating.

No one is using bits of stories to compare Jesus and Jonah. You're the one who's doing that.

Where for example?

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Let's look at what Jesus says,

39 But He replied to them, An evil and adulterous generation (a generation [t]morally unfaithful to God) seeks and demands a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

40 For even as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, Someone more and greater than Jonah is here!

--Mat 12

The sign he gives is 3 days and 3 nights--that's it.

So the sign isn't: Be alive and do stuff while caught inside.So that means Jonah can't be used to prove Jesus was dead, alive, soulsleeping etc during those 3 days.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].

But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?

He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured.

When do you expect His 4th coming?1st coming: Jesus born on earth.2nd coming: Jesus returns from leading the captives away (during the 3 days).3rd coming: Jesus performed priestly duties in heaven after He met Mary and before He met Thomas.4th coming: Milenium

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance. But, he did come back to life [dry ground].

But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?

He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured.

When do you expect His 4th coming?1st coming: Jesus born on earth.2nd coming: Jesus returns from leading the captives away (during the 3 days).3rd coming: Jesus performed priestly duties in heaven after He met Mary and before He met Thomas.4th coming: Milenium

Millenium is the second coming.

The two middle ones are all part of the death and resurrection process. Or do you really think that process would be simple--go to sleep wake up glorified body.