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He didn't only not even try to learn, he just kept asking the same question over and over again for about half an hour and refused to look around when he was told to. Around here somewhere I said that the outfit is for the RPS community.

After which I gave him the link, told him to look at the forums and find the PS2 subforum. That's when he got stuck on the Rossignol question and I flat out refuse to give that answer directly. Hell, I told him where to look. One CTRL+F would've sorted it.

And yeah, I guess we should treat people we don't like well. I don't have the time nor patience for it though, especially not when platoon leading. I can kick people but I don't exactly enjoy it, but if it's for the good of the outfit I will do it without question.

If someone else wants to be the good cop and let them down easy and explain that they are stupid in terms that says that they're not stupid, feel free. Dudes name is SecretPrototype. You can blame me.

Yeah, not trying to lay blame on anyone for handling things in a bad way. That is not the point I want to make. I fully understand the frustration and the stressful nature of the situation, and even though it could have been handled in a smoother way, I understand why things happened the way they did. No disrespect meant in any way.

If this should happen some other time in the future though, which I am sure it will, let's at least make sure that the current PL does not have to handle it. S/he's got enough on her/his plate anyway. We should be able to find someone who has the time to handle it with care. I can do it myself if I'm online at the time and not leading (and if someone lets me know what the problem is, in case I haven't been on long enough to figure that out myself).

Sure, but also let's not recruit idiots. I do know he seemed nice, but we need to do the very low bar idiot check of "check the forums on how to join!" and if they pass that and get on Mumble I'd say they're very much capable to join

Sure, but also let's not recruit idiots. I do know he seemed nice, but we need to do the very low bar idiot check of "check the forums on how to join!" and if they pass that and get on Mumble I'd say they're very much capable to join

That sounds reasonable. Anyone interested in joining, send them to the site and see if they can find their way from there, or at the very least if they get lost they ask politely for some help.

"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

I thought we all decided not to recruit randoms because we did not have a process for it, though? You don't mind yeah, but you do know this is a group where everyone gets a say. mindburst was obviously a great addition, and with the process of just going to the forum we have a way to recruit folks.

And yes, I take the game goddamn seriously, and who are you to judge? I want this to be a excellent group and that we work well together. I see nothing wrong in that.

I think Rides suggestion of pointing them to the forum as a way of joining in with us is a good first hurdle for them. After that see how they get on for like a week or so then decide if they're cool guys (or gals) or not.

*EDIT*
However, I think anyone we do decide is not excellent or cool and needs to be removed from the outfit must not just be booted out unless we want to start getting a reputation as being a group of jerks. If you can't lead, play and manage the social part of recruiting or kicking players, which is a lot to do at once, then delegate that part to someone else.

It's something we should probably all take a vote on though, if we're going to recruit random players or not.

On one hand, you can get a lot of annoying people through accepting randoms.
On the other, a lot of who we have in the outfit are random who joined the outfit through RPS or the game, either way they were still random and accepted without question.

Having some kind of gateway to joining is probably going to be necessary, now that we are growing so large, and showing up in such ostentatious fashion all over the Miller server. I agree that directing people to the forums would be a good gateway. It shows a level of understanding and "dedication" to the community, and it also makes sure that people in the outfit are at least aware that the forum exists, which is a good thing in and of itself.

Either way, I thought the status "giraffe calf" was just for new entrants that didnt really prove into the outfit and all of that.

Also, I do understand the reason for directing to the forums, but to be fair, we all knew there was going to be a separation of casual and more engaged players.

So yeah, I dont have anything against recruiting randoms, I dont have anything against them being thrown out again too. So far, its the first instance of someone being unoutfitted as far as I know, and Ive recruited 5-6 people.

"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

However, I think anyone we do decide is not excellent or cool and needs to be removed from the outfit must not just be booted out unless we want to start getting a reputation as being a group of jerks. If you can't lead, play and manage the social part of recruiting or kicking players, which is a lot to do at once, then delegate that part to someone else.

It was up for everyone to kick him for a good hour and to handle it. We were all in agreement that he couldn't stay. I asked for volounteers. I think Orius said he could but that he was not a beacon (can't kick). That was it.

I won't force anyone else to kick on my behalf and I can't delegate it in such a way to say "hey, you, kick". I don't particularly appreciate getting blamed for this when no one else showed responsibility and did it. Everyone seemed to expect I should handle it and I had to do it since people were asking for orders/what now/where to and so was the other outfits we were coordinating with. He did not just get booted out by the way, but yes, the explanation was not sufficient and I handled it less then excellent due to stress and to not really caring. I knew it was going to be ugly anyway - and I know this might not be the case and that I'm just basing it on experience in other games - so I just did it.

I can't just "delegate" or force people, I'm not the leader. Step up and do stuff.

Quanta: Yeah, Giraffe Calf is exactly for that purpose, and I say invite away (but give them a link to the forum first). If we need to kick in the future I fully expect people to step up, do it, and give an accurate and friendly explanation and take the abuse in /tell.

The feeling that I expressed elsewhere (and others seemed to agree with) is nothing to do with the quality of people that we might find from recruiting in game. It's to do with what the outift is. The outfit was formed as, and I joined expecting to find, a collection of people from the Rock Paper Shotgun community. Some are going to be a lot more engaged than others with the site, sure. And we're going to pick up extras along the way - people who we wind up working with in game, friends of RPS readers, etc. But there's a big difference between that (ie, being a group where RPS people can play Planetside) and being an outfit that was formed by some guys from RPS, but then built itself up in the game's community.

Also, I thought policy on Giraffe Calf is pretty much to just promote when someone is on who can . That way they can invite other people (its quite an Anarchist setup we have here).

"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

I've just gone thorugh & updated outfit rank names & permissions. It has made me want (more) to murder whoever is in charge of designing PS2's UI with a hundred thousand toothpicks.

They are as follows:

Rank details

Giraffe calfPermissions: Outfit voice chatIndication: None as yet
No one is at this rank for now. Might be put to use at a later date. Everyone should be promoted to 'giraffe' upon being invited.

GiraffePermissions: Outfit voice chat & invites
Indication: The backbone of the giraffes
Pretty much everyone is now at this rank. These are our backbone. As giraffes, that's a bloody big backbone that we need to make sure our heads don't fall off. You are the best backbone. We love you.
Giraffe BeaconPermissions: Outfit voice chat, invites & promotionsIndication: Giraffes with spawn beacons & our friendly squad leadersRequirements: A spawn beacon, friendliness & someone who doesn't mind being beacon / waypoint provider.
I've given this to a few people. Not enough. This should be a liberally applied rank with dozens at this level. Those at this level can promote. So do so, entirely at your discretion: Be liberal with who you bump up: No need to ask them if you know they've taken any kind of vague interest in leadershipness at anypoint.

Balloon LeaderPermissions: Outfit voice chat, invites, promtions & kicking (although we've been nicely arsehat-free so far)Indication: Proven platoon leaders. Requirements: To have volunteered as platoon lead
By 'proven platoon leaders' I mean they've done it and we've had fun & they'd be happy to do it again. I do not mean that they've done it and have produced excellent results. Fun can be had whilst dying gloriously in a flaming ball of fire and Galaxy wreckage. I've put a few people in this rank. Unlike Giraffe Beacon, promotions here should be community approved. See below.

Supreme OverlordPermissions: To listen to Carly Rae Jepsen whilst flying a scythe and look ah-maz-ing whilst doing it & to generally be a laser-disco bundle of awesome.
Indication: The purpliest of the giraffes
Requirements: To be mePromotions

General rule: Be bold and ASK. Be nice and GIVE.This is not a formal hierarchy but a way of recognising good leadership.

To "Giraffe"
Should be done soon after joining. I usually mass-promote people here occasionally. If you have promotion permission, just go ahead and do this for anyone online & not at this rank.

To "Giraffe Beacon"
Should be done for anyone you know has a spawn beacon & willing to be squad leader.
- If you have a spawn beacon and are willing to be squad leader just ask.
- If you see someone working as SL, then just give this rank to them.
- Give this promotion to people upon request / when you see them lead a squad / if you know they are capable squad leaders. No need to go through these forums.

To "Balloon leader"You get here one way; community approval
To nominate someone for Ballon leader (ANYONE can do this INCLUDING you putting yourself forward)
1a) POST HERE IN THIS THREAD: If you had a good time playing with us, then say so. Tell us who was leading that group and that you had fun because of that leadership, then nominate for promotion here on the forums.
We tend to recognise this already, so keep doing this.

1b) A nomination 'seconded' gets the promotion.
Just agree (again, here on the forums) with the sentiment that the nominee was a good provider of effective laser shoots.

OR

3) A current Balloon leader who recognises good balloon leadership can go ahead and promote as they like. HOWEVER: Be nice and let them know they did a good job by posting here in the forums anyway.

It was up for everyone to kick him for a good hour and to handle it. We were all in agreement that he couldn't stay. I asked for volounteers. I think Orius said he could but that he was not a beacon (can't kick). That was it.

I won't force anyone else to kick on my behalf and I can't delegate it in such a way to say "hey, you, kick". I don't particularly appreciate getting blamed for this when no one else showed responsibility and did it. Everyone seemed to expect I should handle it and I had to do it since people were asking for orders/what now/where to and so was the other outfits we were coordinating with. He did not just get booted out by the way, but yes, the explanation was not sufficient and I handled it less then excellent due to stress and to not really caring. I knew it was going to be ugly anyway - and I know this might not be the case and that I'm just basing it on experience in other games - so I just did it.

I can't just "delegate" or force people, I'm not the leader. Step up and do stuff.

Quanta: Yeah, Giraffe Calf is exactly for that purpose, and I say invite away (but give them a link to the forum first). If we need to kick in the future I fully expect people to step up, do it, and give an accurate and friendly explanation and take the abuse in /tell.

If you asked and nobody volunteered then that's fair enough, someone should have helped you out. Perhaps everyone is too expecting of your duties. Most of the group will think of you as some sort of leader though if you like it or not, you're very active in the community and you lead an awful lot of the time, so of course people are going to see you as a leader.

Also nobody is blaming you, we're discussing an event that happened and that will happen again, there's no reason to take it so seriously or personally.

It seems obvious though that people were unsure if they could kick or not and perhaps they didn't speak up because of it. If I have the power to kick (I'm not sure of my member status atm) then I've no problem in telling players why they're being removed from the outfit. They can throw all the abuse they want back in a /tell because I barely ever read those things.

Originally Posted by CMaster

Also, I thought policy on Giraffe Calf is pretty much to just promote when someone is on who can . That way they can invite other people (its quite an Anarchist setup we have here).

It certainly is and it might be time to start bringing in more structure to it.

Well, it's obvious I don't mind leading and being a leader, but yeah I'd love some help in questions like this, and I expect people to offer it and step up (as some did but they couldn't kick) rather that me having to force people. This goes for all things by the way, not just kicking.

I am bad at handling kicking people. I just expect it to go bad, because every time I've carefully done it in the nicest way possible, the person being kicked just finds some excuse that means it's not their fault and goes mental regardless. I've seen that personally in WoW like 10 times, so I just stopped trying. That in combo with me not having the time to deal with it properly led to a bad thing.

I take it personal/srs because I fucked it up, obviously, and I knew people would discuss it after the fact. Of course I could've just waited til someone else did it for me, but I really don't feel comfortable doing that, especially if people expect me to handle it. It's also not the first time leadership calls get discussed after they have happened and not while the thing is actually happening, and I don't think that's the best way of doing things.

But I do think pretty much everyone should be able to kick (meaning add that "privilege" to beacons/giraffes as well) as the person leading will rarely be the best person for lenghty explanations and such, especially not if it's me.

Regarding the anarchic structure I also wouldn't mind something more rigid. But that depends though. Right now we have a pretty chaotic democracy that works pretty well most of the time, but rules - like splitting at 30 if it's noisy and such - are pretty nice.

edit: And sorry if I am being ridiculously serious about this, it's mainly because I feel that I did fuck it up.

The person leading the platoon and even the people leading squads, shouldn't be required to carry out social aspects of the outfit while they're doing their roles. It's too much for them and there's no need for them to be jack of all trades.

I get where you're coming from, but the tell system in WoW is much more difficult to ignore than it is in this I find. I often just added people to the ignore list in WoW after they got abusive, but I never cared about what they were saying.

I also do like the chaotic democracy a bit, but the more people we get, the harder it's going to be to keep it working. Perhaps we need to bring in roles beyond simply I lead, you lead, we all lead (for ice cream), such as handling recruitment or removal of bad eggs. At the request of enough players (doesn't take more than a word on mumble or the forum or here), a designated player will remove the bad egg and explain to them for what reason.