qman wrote:[quote="Manning is a statue in the pocket. Montana was Fred Astaire in the pocket. Like Bill Walsh said "all he did was avoid the rush and throw." Ditto Brady and Big Ben. Not one of these guys has John Elway escapability but all three had 360 degree vision and can extend a play all the way out to the last moment. Manning can't.

Manning is unable to "avoid the rush and throw." His entire passing game is predicated on a pre-snap read followed by a release in 2.3 seconds. If the Oline is unable to hold back the rush and the receiver can't make the immediate separation, he won't be able to get two 4th qtr passes like Montana did. Manning needs a fortress around him and/or a running game that can't be shut down or a SB opponent like the 2006 Bears who suck worse than his team.

I agree for the most part. When Buddy Ryan developed the 46 defense it was with QB's just like Peyton Manning in mind. Guys who were only going to be as good as their protection. That's all the more reason you have to have a top flight defense to keep you hanging in the game. Manning eventually figured Seattle out and moved the team down for a score. It could have been interesting if that score made it 14-8 with time remaining. The game was all but over by the time we scored. In Super Bowl 23 2 fourth quarter TD's would have meant nothing if they came when the score was 38 to 6.The Little Guy

Even if it means my death the evil poison of hatred and bigotry which they're trying to spread in the name of Patriotism must be wiped out. Captain America

the little guy wrote:I agree for the most part. When Buddy Ryan developed the 46 defense it was with QB's just like Peyton Manning in mind. Guys who were only going to be as good as their protection. That's all the more reason you have to have a top flight defense to keep you hanging in the game. Manning eventually figured Seattle out and moved the team down for a score. It could have been interesting if that score made it 14-8 with time remaining. The game was all but over by the time we scored. In Super Bowl 23 2 fourth quarter TD's would have meant nothing if they came when the score was 38 to 6.The Little Guy

I don't think he figured anything out. Otherwise he'd have been able to do it again.

the little guy wrote:I agree for the most part. When Buddy Ryan developed the 46 defense it was with QB's just like Peyton Manning in mind. Guys who were only going to be as good as their protection. That's all the more reason you have to have a top flight defense to keep you hanging in the game. Manning eventually figured Seattle out and moved the team down for a score. It could have been interesting if that score made it 14-8 with time remaining. The game was all but over by the time we scored. In Super Bowl 23 2 fourth quarter TD's would have meant nothing if they came when the score was 38 to 6.The Little Guy

I don't think he figured anything out. Otherwise he'd have been able to do it again.

Hell, even the Raiders rarely get shut out.

Well...he kinda did. The Broncos started a drive at the 7:05 mark of the 3rd quarter on their own 45. From the Seattle 43 Manning hit DT for a 23 yard gain down close to the red zone but Thomas fumbled. On the next drive Manning got them into the endzone. There were only 2 more drives after that 2 of which they had to use all four downs because the game was over. We are looking at a totally different scenario if the game has a reasonable score. Instead of fighting for extra yards Thomas would only be thinking about ball security if say the Broncos were only 10 points down. Every good QB is going to have their scattered moments here and there even against the best defenses....the question will always be....how far are they behind? The Little Guy

Even if it means my death the evil poison of hatred and bigotry which they're trying to spread in the name of Patriotism must be wiped out. Captain America

retro-grouch wrote:[quote="The Broncos offense had five possessions in the first half and went safety-punt-interception-interception-turnover on downs, so the Broncos defense gave them some very good chances to stay in the game, especially by holding the Hawks to field goals on two drives.

Disagree. It's going to take a lot more than 5 possesions to get a solid defense figured out and get the team settled down. I hate too sound like a broken record but again I must go back too Super Bowl 23. For a bit more than three quarters....not one quarter but over three....the Bengals had the Niners stuffed. There is an old saying in Football "If you let even a bad team hang around they will find a way too beat you". That's what a quality defense does...it allows you to stay in the game.The Little Guy

"That's what a quality defense does...it allows you to stay in the game."

Not if your offense is turning the ball over. The stats on turnovers are hard to ignore. The Broncos gave the ball away four times, the Seahawks zero. I would bet there has never been a win in the post season with a minus four turnover differential.

In fact, Montana's game in SB23 is a great example of how a QB should function against a defense that is wrecking their offensive game plan. Play field position as much as you can, punt, and keep looking for a chance to make something happen without taking big risks. The game clock and the scoreboard might eventually force your hand but at least you've had a chance to see what you're up against and make some adjustments.

With a Montana-like effort from Manning the Broncos would have been down about 10-6 at halftime. Maybe the Seahawks defense is too much in the second half but you have to do everything possible to give yourself that chance.

Looking at win probability from any rational POV, turnovers are immensely destructive to the chances of winning. Unforced turnovers have to be considered terrible defects by the offense.

This is basic high school stuff. Don't drop the ball, don't screw up the center-exchange, don't float the ball up for grabs. Nothing to do with execution by the Broncos defense.

The Super Bowl is one game boys. Having 4 neck surgeries and having to learn to throw all over again had to be difficult. Being cut by the only team you ever played for and won the Super Bowl with had to be devastating. Coming back from those setbacks and going 13-3 back to back and making it back to the SB has to be encouraging.Being recognized by SI as the Sportsman of the Year and winning your unprecedented 5th NFL MVP must more than offset any pain that comes from being disrespected by the low IQ bloggers.

retro-grouch wrote:[quote="The Broncos offense had five possessions in the first half and went safety-punt-interception-interception-turnover on downs, so the Broncos defense gave them some very good chances to stay in the game, especially by holding the Hawks to field goals on two drives.

Disagree. It's going to take a lot more than 5 possesions to get a solid defense figured out and get the team settled down. I hate too sound like a broken record but again I must go back too Super Bowl 23. For a bit more than three quarters....not one quarter but over three....the Bengals had the Niners stuffed. There is an old saying in Football "If you let even a bad team hang around they will find a way too beat you". That's what a quality defense does...it allows you to stay in the game.The Little Guy

"That's what a quality defense does...it allows you to stay in the game."

Not if your offense is turning the ball over. The stats on turnovers are hard to ignore. The Broncos gave the ball away four times, the Seahawks zero. I would bet there has never been a win in the post season with a minus four turnover differential.

In fact, Montana's game in SB23 is a great example of how a QB should function against a defense that is wrecking their offensive game plan. Play field position as much as you can, punt, and keep looking for a chance to make something happen without taking big risks. The game clock and the scoreboard might eventually force your hand but at least you've had a chance to see what you're up against and make some adjustments.

With a Montana-like effort from Manning the Broncos would have been down about 10-6 at halftime. Maybe the Seahawks defense is too much in the second half but you have to do everything possible to give yourself that chance.

Looking at win probability from any rational POV, turnovers are immensely destructive to the chances of winning. Unforced turnovers have to be considered terrible defects by the offense.

This is basic high school stuff. Don't drop the ball, don't screw up the center-exchange, don't float the ball up for grabs. Nothing to do with execution by the Broncos defense.

Mrzuki wrote:The Super Bowl is one game boys. Having 4 neck surgeries and having to learn to throw all over again had to be difficult. Being cut by the only team you ever played for and won the Super Bowl with had to be devastating. Coming back from those setbacks and going 13-3 back to back and making it back to the SB has to be encouraging.Being recognized by SI as the Sportsman of the Year and winning your unprecedented 5th NFL MVP must more than offset any pain that comes from being disrespected by the low IQ bloggers.

Well maybe the Super Bowl is just one game. Too bad is the biggest one of the year and the only reason Manning is here. The one game any player in the NFL would hope to heck he didn't stink it up and cause his team to lose.

But you are the guy that was all excited about the regular season "winning streak" and all those other meaningless awards and records so your praise and excuses rings pretty damn hollow to me.

Mrzuki wrote:The Super Bowl is one game boys. Having 4 neck surgeries and having to learn to throw all over again had to be difficult. Being cut by the only team you ever played for and won the Super Bowl with had to be devastating. Coming back from those setbacks and going 13-3 back to back and making it back to the SB has to be encouraging.Being recognized by SI as the Sportsman of the Year and winning your unprecedented 5th NFL MVP must more than offset any pain that comes from being disrespected by the low IQ bloggers.

Well maybe the Super Bowl is just one game. Too bad is the biggest one of the year and the only reason Manning is here. The one game any player in the NFL would hope to heck he didn't stink it up and cause his team to lose.

But you are the guy that was all excited about the regular season "winning streak" and all those other meaningless awards and records so your praise and excuses rings pretty damn hollow to me.

Yep, he is one of those low IQ bloggers. Manning won't be as good as last year, so now what?

the little guy wrote:I agree for the most part. When Buddy Ryan developed the 46 defense it was with QB's just like Peyton Manning in mind. Guys who were only going to be as good as their protection. That's all the more reason you have to have a top flight defense to keep you hanging in the game. Manning eventually figured Seattle out and moved the team down for a score. It could have been interesting if that score made it 14-8 with time remaining. The game was all but over by the time we scored. In Super Bowl 23 2 fourth quarter TD's would have meant nothing if they came when the score was 38 to 6.The Little Guy

I don't think he figured anything out. Otherwise he'd have been able to do it again.

Hell, even the Raiders rarely get shut out.

Not only did he not figure anything out, he wasn't even trying to. In games past he would normally try to scan the field to see what the defense was showing. Not in the Superbowl. He kept his eyes down to Manny's butt so he wouldn't call another bad snap. That appeard to be his sole focus after the safety on the first play. He never was able to recover from that initial shock. The guy is not a leader. That much is plain obvious. The only reason he has a superbowl ring is because he played Wrecks Grossman on the other side.

Chapter IV "The Meadowlands Horror, Count Von Chokenstein Reawakes" has closed.On to Chapter V: "The Cabbage-head quarterback is Starting......Again".From the book "How I Destroyed the NFL Franchise that Never Quit on Me"

Mrzuki wrote:The Super Bowl is one game boys. Having 4 neck surgeries and having to learn to throw all over again had to be difficult. Being cut by the only team you ever played for and won the Super Bowl with had to be devastating. Coming back from those setbacks and going 13-3 back to back and making it back to the SB has to be encouraging.Being recognized by SI as the Sportsman of the Year and winning your unprecedented 5th NFL MVP must more than offset any pain that comes from being disrespected by the low IQ bloggers.

Well maybe the Super Bowl is just one game. Too bad is the biggest one of the year and the only reason Manning is here. The one game any player in the NFL would hope to heck he didn't stink it up and cause his team to lose.

But you are the guy that was all excited about the regular season "winning streak" and all those other meaningless awards and records so your praise and excuses rings pretty damn hollow to me.

If regular season games are meaningless why do they keep score?If the only measure of success is for a player to win the Super Bowl then how did Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Warren Moon and Fran Tarkenton all get into the Hall of Fame. ?I understand the importance of the Super Bowl but every year there are 31 teams that don't win it. From my perspective I don't see the need to challenge Peyton's manhood and try to invalidate his entire career because he did not play well in the Super Bowl.

All of those players you mentioned showed extreme toughness and leadership on the field. I have never seen any of them play scared to be hit in a football game. I have seen them rally players and show confidence even if the ship was sinking. Those are little things to a person blinded by statistics I realize but they are very real to me.

Hey if you are happy with Peyton Manning so be it. It's your right just as it's my right not to be. You homers forget this is a place to express thoughts without being insulted but your style is what it is just like Manning's style is what it is. I have seen enough of Peyton Manning over the years that even if he leads the team to a world championship next year I am not interested. I am ready for a young physical Bronco QB to take the reins. I want to see Osweiler and Dysert battle it out. I want to see a running game as our trademark again.

This isn't all about winning and losing to me. It's all about giving your best effort and showing leadership for your teammates and fans regardless of the score or outcome of the game. It's about coaches taking responsibility to step in to take over leadership if the players need it. Sure didn't see any of that either.

Justabroncofan wrote:All of those players you mentioned showed extreme toughness and leadership on the field. I have never seen any of them play scared to be hit in a football game. I have seen them rally players and show confidence even if the ship was sinking. Those are little things to a person blinded by statistics I realize but they are very real to me.

Hey if you are happy with Peyton Manning so be it. It's your right just as it's my right not to be. You homers forget this is a place to express thoughts without being insulted but your style is what it is just like Manning's style is what it is. I have seen enough of Peyton Manning over the years that even if he leads the team to a world championship next year I am not interested. I am ready for a young physical Bronco QB to take the reins. I want to see Osweiler and Dysert battle it out. I want to see a running game as our trademark again.

This isn't all about winning and losing to me. It's all about giving your best effort and showing leadership for your teammates and fans regardless of the score or outcome of the game. It's about coaches taking responsibility to step in to take over leadership if the players need it. Sure didn't see any of that either.

FrankIncense wrote:It doesn't take a genius to see that Elway is doing all he can to squeeze the last bit of magic from Peyton Manning's career.

Enjoy it while it lasts, as 3 years from now you will have a non-franchise quarterback running a CAP-strapped team competing with the Raiders for the the number 1 overall draft pick.

This franchise will not be cap-strapped. Mike Sullivan has put together contracts that allow this team to be competitive now with the flexibility to change direction in the near future if need be. Please look at the terms of the contracts given out this year and you may find out they are VERY team-friendly.

Justabroncofan wrote:All of those players you mentioned showed extreme toughness and leadership on the field. I have never seen any of them play scared to be hit in a football game. I have seen them rally players and show confidence even if the ship was sinking. Those are little things to a person blinded by statistics I realize but they are very real to me.

Hey if you are happy with Peyton Manning so be it. It's your right just as it's my right not to be. You homers forget this is a place to express thoughts without being insulted but your style is what it is just like Manning's style is what it is. I have seen enough of Peyton Manning over the years that even if he leads the team to a world championship next year I am not interested. I am ready for a young physical Bronco QB to take the reins. I want to see Osweiler and Dysert battle it out. I want to see a running game as our trademark again.

This isn't all about winning and losing to me. It's all about giving your best effort and showing leadership for your teammates and fans regardless of the score or outcome of the game. It's about coaches taking responsibility to step in to take over leadership if the players need it. Sure didn't see any of that either.

Manning may not have shown all the qualities some people wanted in the Super Bowl. If you want to attack QB's, you might as well go after Brady too. He wasn't showing stellar leadership in the AFC championship game.

retro-grouch wrote:In spite of the five MVPs etc. etc., Manning still needs reinforcement that throwing the ball away, and doing it quickly, is often a good play. When he sees a defensive unit come out showing some great stuff--physical talent and creativity--he needs a sort of turtle mode that will let him check in with the coaches, look at the pre-snap stills, and get a sense of what's going on with the coverage. Incomplete passes are nothing compared to picks, sacks, and safeties. You can't blow up your whole team in brief intervals of mental instability.

Agree. Manning needed time too settle down. He was looking at things and facing pressure that he had not seen....probably in 2 years. Unfortunately once Russell Wilson figured out the Denver defense the offensive chances became limited. A good defense...like Seattle's.. gives an offense chance after chance to settle in and get things working. I keep going back too Super Bowl 23. Cincinnati was shutting the Niners down. They gave up 6 points in 3 quarters. But because the Niners D was returning the favor the Bengals lead was only 7 points. Two 4th quarter TD passes by Motana and the ring goes too San Francisco.The Little Guy

Manning is a statue in the pocket. Montana was Fred Astaire in the pocket. Like Bill Walsh said "all he did was avoid the rush and throw." Ditto Brady and Big Ben. Not one of these guys has John Elway escapability but all three had 360 degree vision and can extend a play all the way out to the last moment. Manning can't.

Manning is unable to "avoid the rush and throw." His entire passing game is predicated on a pre-snap read followed by a release in 2.3 seconds. If the Oline is unable to hold back the rush and the receiver can't make the immediate separation, he won't be able to get two 4th qtr passes like Montana did. Manning needs a fortress around him and/or a running game that can't be shut down or a SB opponent like the 2006 Bears who suck worse than his team.

Brady doesn't avoid the rush and throw, it's his O-line that usually plays really well and gives him time to time. Any physical defense such as Seattle's would give Brady problems. He lost two SBs going against physical Giants defense. He lost to Seattle and 49ers before. Big Ben shouldn't never be mentioned alongside Elway and Brady. Without his defense he is a very average QB.