This my friends, is the power of the Internet. A person becomes interested in Scientology, sends an email to the CoS, gets no reply, and then searches the internet and finds some of the truths the CoS doesnt want anyone to know - and instead plans to joint the protests! Amazing, I'm so proud of you Chel.

As an x-scientology kid I can verify all the things said in previous posts. Homosexuality is one of the things most Scilons despise most, altough they will NOT tell you that openly should you choose to go there and do a few courses.

Growing up in Scientology, I've heard the most despicable things said about homosexuals by Scientologists and I have seen no indication as to why that should have changes since. Scientlogists are, generally, very narrow-minded people who and they think they know the true "reason" for you being gay.

BTW, The Netherlands is such a great country - so open and liberal. I go there once in a while for Sensation or Trance Energy and I've seen the big "church" CoS has in the downtown area. With all the "abberation" in the Dutch society going on, the CoS must have a harder time expaning there than anywhere...

"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth."

I read the OP and that is what I'm responding to. Chel Scientology will tell you (if they ever get back to you which they wont, and trust me they GOT your letter) that they have absolutely nothing against gay people. This is because in their mind they dont. But you have to remember that in the church of Fred Phelps (that crazy church that protests the funerals of our proud marines) he and his members dont hate gay people themselves (supposedly) god does. Scientology operates somewhat similarly. While they will tell you they have nothing against gay people, they do have something against the act of homosexuality itself. If you are in Scientology (especially upper Scientology) and you tell your auditor that you had a homosexual experience of any kind with someone, then they will label you "downstat" and put you on lower conditions. What this means in english is that you will be labeled as a bad person until you stop having homosexual experiences completely, and that they will try to convince you into never having a homosexual experience again. If you continue to have homosexual experience while in the sea org, you will be sent to a labor camp called the RPF. No, i am not making this up. While "gay" might be okay in some way, homosexuality is thought of as something to be removed in Scientology.

And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
-Radiohead

They don't mind homosexuals... if you will let them "cure" you and then never do it again. Yeah, seriously!

As a teenager I used to have to read what's called a "life history" that one writes when joining the SO... and they want to know any hetero or homosexual experience (seperately listed) in detail. That way they know if you are qualified or not. It made me sick!

Somebody has to speak for these people.... no more running. I aim to misbehave.... If you can't do something smart, do something right. (Serenity)

You know, they might be better off demanding everyone be TRUE monks and ban not just children but marriage, sex, and anything else you can think of.

It would be more honest. I might even respect them more in that regard.

You know, they should have had a grandfather clause in the FO that changed the rules about having kids. People like me who joined before it came out should have stayed under the rules that we were promised. Oh no wait, that would be logical and caring!! Not that I don't thank god they closed the ranches and shudder at the thought of raising my kids inside -- I never would have done so even then. But it's the principle of the thing!

Speaking of monks -- did anyone else get told that the org could break any state or federal laws they wished, with regard to minors working or even drinking alcohol, because we were on "monastic property" and considered monks/nuns/whatever?

Somebody has to speak for these people.... no more running. I aim to misbehave.... If you can't do something smart, do something right. (Serenity)

Warren Jeff thought he and his group was above the law but that didn't prove to be true. It took a long time and a lot of abuse before the FBI decided to go after him though.

Here's more:

After a complaint was filed with authorities, police started investigating that complaint at the compound inhabited by the Polygamist group that used to be headed up by Warren Jeff, who was recently convicted of rape-related charges for marrying off a 14-year-old girl, in November and was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah.

The compound is a 1,900-acre Yearn for Zion Ranch outside Eldorado, about 160 miles northwest of San Antonio.

The compound, built by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, consists of about 150 buildings and features an 80-foot-tall white temple. It occupies a former exotic-game ranch. Known as the FLDS, the congregation broke with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City after the Mormons renounced polygamy nearly 120 years ago.

Police surrounded the compound last night and search and arrest warrants were served today, resulting in a bus load of children, mostly young girls, being taken from the retreat.

Under the Banner of Heaven is a great read.

Don’t get interested in real estate. Don’t get interested in the masses of buildings, because that’s not important.
L. Ron Hubbard, Lecture Series: Anatomy of the Human Mind
Tape: The Genus of Dianetics and Scientology
Tape#: 6012C31
31 December 1960

Grundy wrote:I noticed that my friend, who is normally a sweet and wonderful person, really came accross as having the attitude that gays were somehow subhuman.

I am beginning to get the idea that many of us had the same sort of catalyst to understanding that I did: we see something in someone else that mirrors us, and go "eeww".

I had that happen with racism. My dad had been a white supremacist as a teenager, and then there was the Korean war, and while he got better, he never actually left behind all those yucky and hateful views. He KNEW it was wrong, but I guess it was just too deeply ingrained in him. He raised me while spitting them out left and right. Around 12 or 13 I looked at him while he was saying his usual spiel, as if for the first time, and thought "oh god, that's ugly!" Up until that point, I had quietly imitated him just like most kids copy their parents (totally unthinkingly). And then I spent the rest of my life up until now being as much the opposite as possible.

After I left Scientology, I had a similar experience with regard to gays. I had never hated anyone for being homosexual, I didn't even KNOW anyone who was gay. But I met a few people and when I saw people on the news being vitriolic, I thought, I just can't bring myself to hate someone because of who they find hot. The clincher, tho, was again seeing someone being hateful or even just coldly superior. I guess, if you are confronted by something like that, it either pushes you totally away or you join in???

Human nature is strange.

Grundy wrote:Gay guys are great. The more gay men there are, the more women left for me. But lesbians should be bisexual. And into exhibitionism.

You and all other straight men!

Somebody has to speak for these people.... no more running. I aim to misbehave.... If you can't do something smart, do something right. (Serenity)

I never had any problem with homosexuality itself. I maintain that the "gay lifestyle" is a sinful and pointless one, and that concentrating one's self in any way based on what said one does in the bedroom is also a sin. However, homosexuality existed long before Christianity did. Therefore, this "god" they are always talking about clearly made it a part of physical reality. Adam and Eve were full fledged heterosexuals out of necessity i would presume, providing that they existed which they did not. This is a good conversation by all, and i think that this is very good to discuss. This is because this issue speaks to the outdatedness of Scientology's irrational fears and often hatreds. For example Scientologists STILL claim that Psych drugs ruin people and so does electroshock therapy. Electroshock never occurs anymore except for extremely rare cases. And Psych drugs in many cases have proven positive affects, especially with ADD, clinical depression, and Bipolar mania. But because Scientologists are so ignorant and out of reality, and unwilling in ANY WAY to update their bull, their foolishness shows. Religions are often unwilling to update their principles, but that is largely because their principles are theological and not based in modernity. What if Christians had said "the black plague is the source of all evil" and were simply unwilling to update their idea? They would look like total fools.

And this just feels like spinning plates
Our bodies floating down the muddy river
-Radiohead

Walker. wrote:I never had any problem with homosexuality itself. I maintain that the "gay lifestyle" is a sinful and pointless one, and that concentrating one's self in any way based on what said one does in the bedroom is also a sin. However, homosexuality existed long before Christianity did. Therefore, this "god" they are always talking about clearly made it a part of physical reality. Adam and Eve were full fledged heterosexuals out of necessity i would presume, providing that they existed which they did not. This is a good conversation by all, and i think that this is very good to discuss. This is because this issue speaks to the outdatedness of Scientology's irrational fears and often hatreds. For example Scientologists STILL claim that Psych drugs ruin people and so does electroshock therapy. Electroshock never occurs anymore except for extremely rare cases. And Psych drugs in many cases have proven positive affects, especially with ADD, clinical depression, and Bipolar mania. But because Scientologists are so ignorant and out of reality, and unwilling in ANY WAY to update their bull, their foolishness shows. Religions are often unwilling to update their principles, but that is largely because their principles are theological and not based in modernity. What if Christians had said "the black plague is the source of all evil" and were simply unwilling to update their idea? They would look like total fools.

You just struck down 60% of the population in three sentences.

Homosexuality is one of those things I don't like but I feel people should have the freedom to do that. Although I'm split on the whole marriage part of that.
Christianity, don't get me started. But yet again, people should be able to believe these things if they so choose. As long as no more Inquisitions happen.

"Do you believe??"......"Yes"...."Please step aside".
"Do you believe??"......"No"...."Off with his head".
"NEXT!!"

"Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. But I don't believe that anybody has a right to trick anybody, to hurt anybody, to harm some body, for their own purposes." - Jason Beghe

Walker. wrote: What if Christians had said "the black plague is the source of all evil" and were simply unwilling to update their idea? They would look like total fools.

But they do say that, only in other words. And yes, they look like total fools too, like all religious people, if I may say so. I don't mean to offend anyone here, especially since I know most of you are Americans and the US is a highly religious society, but religion is loosing more and more ground in the Western world and that is something I am very thankful for. One day, we'll just read about religion in the history books.

"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth."

I haven't looked here for a few weeks because I just started with college, thanks for all the comments :] I think It's fun to read peoples opinion on things like these.

Iknowtoomuch wrote:Homosexuality is one of those things I don't like but I feel people should have the freedom to do that. Although I'm split on the whole marriage part of that.

I don't like a Lot of religions and lifestyles, but I completely agree with you that people should alwayss have the freedom to do whatever they want to do unless it really harms others.

And I'm actually sort of against gay marriage I do think gay couples should be able to get the same treatment as married couples, but since calling it marriage makes soo many people feel bad about it I don't think we should.

Grundy wrote:As a humorous aside, my new attitude is this:

Gay guys are great. The more gay men there are, the more women left for me. But lesbians should be bisexual. And into exhibitionism.

Basicly every straight guy I know thinks like that,, I spend the last two years of highschool in a class with about 25 guys and 2 or 3 others girls.. you can probably imagine how that would've been sometimes ..

doubleVee wrote:They don't mind homosexuals... if you will let them "cure" you and then never do it again. Yeah, seriously!

As a teenager I used to have to read what's called a "life history" that one writes when joining the SO... and they want to know any hetero or homosexual experience (seperately listed) in detail. That way they know if you are qualified or not. It made me sick!

They could try to cure me alll they want.. sometimes I wish someone had a cure not right now though, I'm really in love with someone and I don't want to be cured from that.

I don't think they would see me as qualified if I told them about those things ..

I'm sure you will get many responses to this post before too long. Let me tell you what I believe based upon my experience in the cult.

Very, simply I doubt that you will hear back from them at all.

There is no place for "gay's" in the cult - but if you have money they will try to get it from you before discarding you.

Stay away totally.

And enjoy your life. You are free!

Here is a question...

I did a search on wilki as the asker had, and found a qoute in Dianetics, which then refers to a psychiatrist writing defining sexual deviation and fetishism. IS IT JUST ME, OR IS THIS A GLARING ERROR ON LRH'S RELIGIOUS THEME OF HATING AND ABHORRING ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PSYCHIATRY'... SINCE HE REFERENCED THEM, AS I UNDERSTAND IT TO BE TRUE, IN HIS BOOK. HOW CAN HE REFERENCE DIRECTLY SOMETHING HE IS AGAINST? "The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in Dynamic II [i.e. sexuality] such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically... he is very far from culpable for his condition, but he is also far from normal and extremely dangerous to society..."[1]