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I haven't seen anyone get "mind meltingly infuriated." What I have seen is people ask for some reason to think the suggestion is true. I realise that supporting what you say is a radical notion for a skeptics' forum, but I think we should give it a try.

As I say above, when he tells me that he is prepared to use absolutely any means to produce an effect, up to and including using stooges and lying about using them, I don't think I need to proffer evidence in order to believe he does it the easiest and most obvious way.

If he means something else by 'showmanship' then he ought to tell me what that is. If he cares whether I watch him or not, of course.

It leads me to believe that nothing he does is a result of "magic, suggestion, psychology or misdirection" and to believe that everything he does is a result of 'showmanship'. Which includes paying stooges and lying about whether you do or not. And camera tricks.

Of course I don't KNOW this. But when he says point blank he's prepared to use these methods, then why not use them all the time? It's way easier.

...well, yeah. He's a trickster. HE IS TRICKING YOU! That is what magician's do!

It leads me to believe that nothing he does is a result of "magic, suggestion, psychology or misdirection" and to believe that everything he does is a result of 'showmanship'. Which includes paying stooges and lying about whether you do or not. And camera tricks.

Of course I don't KNOW this. But when he says point blank he's prepared to use these methods, then why not use them all the time? It's way easier.

Well, except he's always insisted that he doesn't use actors or stooges.

Despite conspiracy theories and rumours online, Steven is not a stooge, or an actor, or in any way just playing along. Same goes for his family and friends that you see in the programme. They’d all have to be actors too. And all his REAL family – and anyone that knows him – taken away and quietly killed. My shows always provoke a flurry of people insisting it’s all fake, and I’ve come to expect that – exhausting and hurtful though it can be after months and months of love and sweating blood to make such massively ambitious and heart-felt programmes.

I have never, ever used stooges or actors in that way. It’s artistically repugnant, lazy and just unnecessary. And impossible to pull off, as anyone that knows him would of course be able to say so. We spent months setting up Steven’s experience, getting his family on board, and spending a vast sum of money making it as convincing as possible for him, and all our efforts making sure that he experienced a real transformation. To fake all of that with an actor would be pointless. A few theories have sprung up online – firstly that he is a working actor who has appeared in a comedy ad. I’ve seen the ad – that is not Steven.
...
On another note – it simply wouldn’t be permissible now to pretend someone was a real member of the public if he or she was acting. Misleading the public in a TV show is a big deal, and a massive lie like that wouldn’t be permitted by the channel. But that’s beside the point: I just don’t use actors in that way. These stunts are not faked. You can just enjoy the show.

Could he be lying? Perhaps. I tend to think it's a combination of "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship"--but not stooges.

ETA: His saying that it's not "all fake" is revealing, IMHO.

__________________It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
- Carl Sagan

"My shows always provoke a flurry of people insisting it’s all fake, and I’ve come to expect that – exhausting and hurtful though it can be after months and months of love and sweating blood to make such massively ambitious and heart-felt programmes."

That could be read as, "if people said it was only partly fake, I wouldn't have as much of a problem."

Anyway, it was just an afterthought. Probably meaningless, I admit. I still think he uses a combination of methods to achieve the effect.

__________________It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
- Carl Sagan

Well now we're getting somewhere. Can you show me where Brown has said he pays stooges?

"Showmanship" covers that. It doesn't have to include it. but it does cover him doing pretty much anything and then saying "I never said I didn't". As I say, if he means something else by showmanship than essentially "deceiving the marks in any way whatever and constantly lying about what's going on, as a carnival showman would" then what does he mean by it? It's an odd word to be in that list.

Steven is not a stooge, or an actor, or in any way just playing along. Same goes for his family and friends that you see in the programme. They’d all have to be actors too. And all his REAL family – and anyone that knows him – taken away and quietly killed.

That's not true at all. Come on, this is a rubbish denial, considering that later on he describes "getting the family on board". Brown's essentially saying yes he got them to act as part of his trick on Steven, but there's no possible way they could be "acting" and pretending that Steven was "really transformed". Did he even read what he wrote before he posted it?

"Showmanship" covers that. It doesn't have to include it. but it does cover him doing pretty much anything and then saying "I never said I didn't". As I say, if he means something else by showmanship than essentially "deceiving the marks in any way whatever and constantly lying about what's going on, as a carnival showman would" then what does he mean by it? It's an odd word to be in that list.

You seem to be using a unique definition of the word "showmanship." Can you tell me where you've got this from?

__________________"The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline

"In the United Kingdom, show-people are involved with funfairs. The Showmen's Guild of Great Britain is the most dominant trade association, with a membership of around 4,700.[2] For example, the Guild co-organizes St Giles' Fair in Oxford with Oxford City Council each September. The Association of Independent Showmen and Society of Independent Roundabout Proprietors are just two more trade associations"

"In the United Kingdom, show-people are involved with funfairs. The Showmen's Guild of Great Britain is the most dominant trade association, with a membership of around 4,700.[2] For example, the Guild co-organizes St Giles' Fair in Oxford with Oxford City Council each September. The Association of Independent Showmen and Society of Independent Roundabout Proprietors are just two more trade associations"

showmanship is just another word for performance, and it means the same thing in all countries. So it pretty much fits all the magicians and other performers on stage/tv. You are really taking it too far if you think Derren sees himself as a "carny" (he doesn't).

By the way, the disclaimer quote which you are trying to ridiculously over-analyze isn't even the complete thing. Here's the full quote from the beginning of some of his shows:

"This program fuses magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship. I achieve all the results you’ll see here through a varied mixture of those techniques. At no point are actors or stooges used in the show."

So your conspiracy theory of how he says "showmanship" to imply the use of stooges and actors doesn't really makes sense, because he denies the use of it a few seconds later.

I saw him in Edinburgh several years ago and left thinking he needed to be burned at the stake. Plants or not, I was thoroughly entertained and spooked.

His stage tricks obviously waaaay less convoluted than tv stuff, and could be explained by many of our resident performers, I even went home and replicated one of his tricks, but he is top notch at what he does and how he entertains / annoys us all.

I've never seen him on stage. I already said I think he's a good entertainer and that probably is the case on stage too. Indeed he may be far better on stage.

TV is a different medium. It doesn't take a good entertainer to make a girl , or even a Boeing 747 vanish on TV. It takes a lens with a mirror attached. Or just a competent video editor. As watchers, we only have the presenter's word there was a 747 in the first place.

What I saw him do on TV is all explicable if we simply suppose he is lying.
There's no "Wow!" moment, no "How the heck did he DO that?" response.

Now since he repeatedly either lies or pretends to lie to the people who appear on those shows, we have every reason to suppose he is lying all the time, both to them and to us.

And (as I have said several times) that's absolutely fine, so long as he doesn't expect anyone to believe that anything he does has any actual validity.

Which is a shame, in my view - because (for example) the placebo effect is real and extremely interesting. If his show did demonstrate placebo effects it would be not just entertaining, but informative. But if we can't believe anything he says, it reverts to just entertaining- and really not very.

As others have said, it's just DB claiming he did something that we can't check.
I think he can do better than that- and if he's better on stage, that confirms it.

What I saw him do on TV is all explicable if we simply suppose he is lying.
There's no "Wow!" moment, no "How the heck did he DO that?" response.

Now since he repeatedly either lies or pretends to lie to the people who appear on those shows, we have every reason to suppose he is lying all the time, both to them and to us.

And (as I have said several times) that's absolutely fine, so long as he doesn't expect anyone to believe that anything he does has any actual validity.

Which is a shame, in my view - because (for example) the placebo effect is real and extremely interesting. If his show did demonstrate placebo effects it would be not just entertaining, but informative. But if we can't believe anything he says, it reverts to just entertaining- and really not very.

As others have said, it's just DB claiming he did something that we can't check.
I think he can do better than that- and if he's better on stage, that confirms it.

Yup, that's all there is.

Perhaps it might come off better if he did anything at all to try and support his assertions that he's genuinely "hypnotizing" people; more of us might at least have less of a problem with it. But he doesn't even try - he just insists it's hypnotism and all you can do is either take it or leave it.

Perhaps it might come off better if he did anything at all to try and support his assertions that he's genuinely "hypnotizing" people; more of us might at least have less of a problem with it. But he doesn't even try - he just insists it's hypnotism and all you can do is either take it or leave it.

I haven't seen much of his work, the first time I've seen him perform was the second show of the Derren Brown: The Experiments. In it, he showed how some guy he supposedly hypnotized stayed with most of his body submerged in ice water without experiencing discomfort.

Now I get that this is just a bit of entertainment, but the sciency stuff he used to make it look like the guy was really sitting in a bath of ice water was just ridiculous. Heartbeat readings that were dropping but stayed in a perfectly normal range, an infra-red cam with misleading labeling, yet no physiological responses at all visible (ETA: on camera) in the guy sitting in the supposedly freezing water.

I tried to look at some more of that show after that, but I really couldn't enjoy his work. So I guess I'm now in the "leave it" category.

After he wasted an hour of my life with that ridiculous lottery 'explanation' programme, why am I supposed to believe him when he says he doesn't use stooges?

I don't really care whether you believe it or not, but if you're going to put your belief out in public on a sceptics' forum you'd better have something to back it up with other than "Well it's what I believe." You, sadly, don't. The sceptical thing to do at this point is to look at what you believe and ask yourself why you believe it. I wonder if you will this time?

__________________"The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline

Isn't actors faking their reactions how he achieves all of his "psychological manipulation" stuff?

I stopped watching a long time ago when it became apparent to me that that was the case.

No idea unless evidence is brought forward to support that claim.

Beaver Hateman Derren is a magician obviously he's going to lie within the context of a trick,same way Copperfield lies when he says he walks though wall of china. So using that a yardstick to disbeleive everything he says is ridiculous.

__________________

"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

Beaver Hateman Derren is a magician obviously he's going to lie within the context of a trick,same way Copperfield lies when he says he walks though wall of china. So using that a yardstick to disbeleive everything he says is ridiculous.

Other magicians know that I know they are lying, it's an unspoken arrangement and I'm ok with that. I love watching a good magician fool me.

When I watch Derren Brown though, I feel like he actually wants me to believe that he can do what he's doing. I feel patronised watching Derren Brown in a way that I don't watching many other magicians. I feel like Derren Brown thinks his audience are stupid.

ETA: Thinking more about it, I feel uneasy watching most mentalism acts.

Hateman is simply asking why he should believe someone now who has lied before on similar points. It's a perfectly reasonable question.

No, he isn't. He's stating his belief that Brown is lying. I am asking the perfectly reasonable question "What do you have that supports that belief?"

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Though either you weren't able to grasp it, or, and I could use a laugh, perhaps you actually bought into Brownie's lottery "explanation", so you don't accept the premise that he lied.

I don't know what this has to do with the matter at hand, but I'll let you in on a secret: Derren Brown can't predict the lottery results. He didn't predict the lottery results. It was a trick. I can't imagine why anyone would seriously think that show would genuinely explain the trick.

__________________"The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline

...I can't imagine why anyone would seriously think that show would genuinely explain the trick.

Of course. You knew all along he wouldn't be truthful when explaining the methodology of his tricks. And your hyper-skeptical mind hasn't felt the need to demand any evidence the explanation was bogus, has it? Because smart people like you already know he's going to lie about that kind of thing.

Funny, though, how you suddenly assume he is being truthful when he claims he never uses actors or stooges in his presentations. And you're not believin' otherwise until your hyper-skeptical mind has seen satiated with unimpeachable evidence to the contrary.

Because, well, Derren would never lie about that kind of thing, would he..
.

__________________Qte: I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.

Well it would certainly be the easy way to do it. Occam's razor would seem quite applicable.

Quote:

Beaver Hateman Derren is a magician obviously he's going to lie within the context of a trick,same way Copperfield lies when he says he walks though wall of china. So using that a yardstick to disbeleive everything he says is ridiculous.

No, there's a difference. Magicians lie, but they do it in a way and within a context where everyone present knows and understands that it is a lie.

When a magician does a card trick and says "And that's magic!" at the end, it is understood by everyone there that he is lying. He knows it, we know it, he knows that we know it, and we know that he knows. The lie is thus a theatrical lie, no different than an actor in a scene who is, technically, lying when she gives her performance. The actor is not a "liar" as such, because everybody involved is aware that the "lie" is just part of a performance.

Derren Brown does not do this. Derren Brown tries to genuinely convince people that he can engage in feats of psychological manipulation, which he cannot. And he succeeds in convincing them of this. People walk out of his shows genuinely convinced that he can say the right words and throw a few subliminal images around and make you choose one thing rather than another.

This is fundamentally dishonest in a way that Copperfield is not. Nobody walks out of a Copperfield show thinking that he can fly and walk through walls because magic is real.

Derren is better put into company with Sylvia Browne and John Edward.

__________________Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul

Well it would certainly be the easy way to do it. Occam's razor would seem quite applicable.

Easy doesn't mean its the truth. I take it you're not forthcoming with any proof about actors then?

Quote:

*snip*

Derren Brown does not do this. Derren Brown tries to genuinely convince people that he can engage in feats of psychological manipulation, which he cannot.

That's his "misdirection" and "showmanship" he doesn't claim to be able to do it for real.Does he state in a disclaimer "Everything you see is real" See my Sig.

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And he succeeds in convincing them of this. People walk out of his shows genuinely convinced that he can say the right words and throw a few subliminal images around and make you choose one thing rather than another.

Peopel walk out of many mentalism show thinking the magician can read their minds by whatever means stated(body language/telepathy etc)

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This is fundamentally dishonest in a way that Copperfield is not. Nobody walks out of a Copperfield show thinking that he can fly and walk through walls because magic is real.

Derren is better put into company with Sylvia Browne and John Edward.

Is there anyone on the planet who thinks Derren is psychic? Considering his disclaimer? Well possibly but that's their fault given all info out there about Derren. Magic has changed,people wont "Buy" big boxes and card tricks (a la Paul Daniels) any more.

Like Soapy Sam you are getting in a huff over nothing. People are supposed to believe Derren Brown that's the whole point. Maybe he walks a thin line ,he admits as much but I repeat he states he 's magican and it's all showmanship.

__________________

"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

Of course. You knew all along he wouldn't be truthful when explaining the methodology of his tricks. And your hyper-skeptical mind hasn't felt the need to demand any evidence the explanation was bogus, has it? Because smart people like you already know he's going to lie about that kind of thing.

Of course he wasnt going to explain the trick,magicians never do.

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Funny, though, how you suddenly assume he is being truthful when he claims he never uses actors or stooges in his presentations.

He wil lie wihtin contet of a trick,his discalimer is said Out of "character",he's always stated this and there's been no proof to believe otherwise.

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And you're not believin' otherwise until your hyper-skeptical mind has seen satiated with unimpeachable evidence to the contrary.

Thats how skepticism works.

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Because, well, Derren would never lie about that kind of thing, would he...

I dont believe so in 10 years of watching his work and with magician's "inside" views, no.

__________________

"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

That's his "misdirection" and "showmanship" he doesn't claim to be able to do it for real.Does he state in a disclaimer "Everything you see is real" See my Sig.

But that is not "misdirection" and certainly not "showmanship". I addressed this point in the part you snipped.

Quote:

Peopel walk out of many mentalism show thinking the magician can read their minds by whatever means stated(body language/telepathy etc)

I doubt that.

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Is there anyone on the planet who thinks Derren is psychic? Considering his disclaimer?

Who said anything about his being psychic? So far as I know he's never claimed to be, never implied he was, and never convinced anybody he was. I've certainly never said that.

What I say is that he claims to be able to use psychological manipulation in a way that he cannot. And he makes these claims in a way intended to make people genuinely believe him, which they do.

The way Derren says he uses psychological manipulation to do his tricks is absolutely identical to how Sylvia says she is using mediumship to contact the dead. In both cases "it's a trick and the whole idea is to use showmanship to make you believe it" isn't an excuse.

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Like Soapy Sam you are getting in a huff over nothing.

Excuse me? I haven't "gotten in a huff" at all. Of the two of us, you seem rather more huffy on the topic than I am.

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People are supposed to believe Derren Brown that's the whole point. Maybe he walks a thin line ,he admits as much but I repeat he states he 's magican and it's all showmanship.

No, he doesn't state that. Listen again, more carefully. He states that he uses "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship". And then he massively emphasises the "suggestion and psychology" aspect of that throughout his show.

He also leaves out that he uses camera tricks, too.

__________________Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul

I haven't seen much of his work, the first time I've seen him perform was the second show of the Derren Brown: The Experiments. In it, he showed how some guy he supposedly hypnotized stayed with most of his body submerged in ice water without experiencing discomfort.

Now I get that this is just a bit of entertainment, but the sciency stuff he used to make it look like the guy was really sitting in a bath of ice water was just ridiculous. Heartbeat readings that were dropping but stayed in a perfectly normal range, an infra-red cam with misleading labeling, yet no physiological responses at all visible (ETA: on camera) in the guy sitting in the supposedly freezing water.

I tried to look at some more of that show after that, but I really couldn't enjoy his work. So I guess I'm now in the "leave it" category.

You may wish to watch the Discovery Channels Curiosity: Brainwashed. Same basic idea with the ice bath, similar result.
I can't find a youtube clip of it, however the successful candidate in the Discovery Channels version also showed little to no outward signs of discomfort or response to the ice water either.

Q: How cold was the water used in the ice bath test during the Curiosity brainwashing experiment?

A: The water in which the test subjects were submerged was confirmed by a thermal imaging camera to be 35 degrees F (1.7 C).
Q: Were precautions taken to ensure the safety of the Curiosity brainwashing test subjects during the ice bath experiment?

A: The experiment team attached monitors to each person to ensure such critical things as their heart rate could be observed. An EMT was also on hand to ensure the participants' safety.
Q: Did any of the remaining four Curiosity brainwashing test subjects pass the ice bath test?

A: All but one of the subjects failed the test. None of the participants who failed lasted more than 18 seconds in the near-freezing water. The remaining subject lasted an astonishing 2 minutes. Had all four subjects failed, the experiment would have been over.

The comments on Derren Browns blog about his latest series are a bit sad.

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After watching this show and the amazing results, 1) Derren, you’re amazing! 2) If you ever plan a second experiment along these lines, would you consider attempting to find a cure for gambling addiction. My partner (and soon to be daddy) has had a problem since he was a teen. I refuse to give up on him in the hope that if someone shows some faith in him he may be able to gain some self belief also. I have done what I can from the physical side- his wages are paid directly to me, his bills are paid from my account and he is given ‘pocket money’. Gaining help for the mental side however is very difficult.
Just a thought for the future.

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Amazing show! i had tears running down my face when the lad stood up to the actors in the bar and when he came out…also felt so happy for the other participants. I could do with a red and blue pill and more for fears, addictions, anxiety etc. Is there anybody out there with actual suggestions on how to reach that place where we can take control of our minds for the better? Ive tried various hypnosis and self help books and audio to no avail. Ian you are advertising your own mp3 downloads on amazon. Do they work? Really hope @sarah jo and others here find some solution for their family and own pain. xx

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I too agree with your comments, sounds like I’m in the same boat as you, mother of a 4 year old who has suffered with this for over 10 years and always looking for answers. I’ve tried everything without success and am now at the point were I can no longer work and I hate the fact it stops me from doing every day things with my son.

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If we’re to progress and prosper, we have to question understandings. Not selectively, but comprehensively. So lets hope a student at the back of the lecture hall can overcome their fear, and point out to the Professor that his faith is misplaced. By virtue of the fact that one tenet says the big bang was the start of everything. While another tenet says there can be no effect without cause. It simply will no longer do. To have ideologies based on belief, claim infallibility.
Keep it up.

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hi, my name is michael and i suffer from Narcolepsy and Cataplexy,
i have had this illness around 7-8 years now and am on medication to control symptoms which it does to a degree.
Im trying to get in touch with Derren to see if he could help me with my Cataplexy which is an emotional illness meaning when i have strong emotions of any kind it causes my body to shut down causing me to collapse!! After watching some programmes of Derren i was wondering if he could help me to control my emotions to overcome my problems!!
I know you/he must be inundated with requests alot but if i dont ask i will never know?
hoping to hear from you/someone
Mikey

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WOOOOOW. an amazing episode, and just incrediabaly inspiring. i also suffer from eczema just like the boy in the programme did, i have suffered from eczema for 15 years now. derren brown or anyoone else who is reading this plz reply back to me and derren brown PLZ fo something to help, no matter what it takes. i have suffered with this disease for far too long in my life now!

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would you beable to anything for me, as when i go for intervews i freeze as i suffer from Anxiety i get the intervews, but dont get any further, as words do not come out i then get worked up ,and then say the wrong thing . after watching them clips i could do with the control are the feeling confident could you help jacqueline roberts

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Hi, I understand and appreciate you don’t do private one to one season, however please could we ask if you would just read this message, our daughter has a condition know as narcolepsy she also has a second condition cataplexy. It’s the cataplexy she’s finds living with so hard she’s unable to laugh and collapses, she would love to have fun and join in with friends, as parents with the hardest thing not watching yr child do something that’s an everyday occurrence to people. Please could we ask if any programs/events come up in the future that she could participate in that you please please contact us.

Some of these people sound like they need to a see a Dr, not a magician...

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Having been affected by Social Phobia and other anxieties from a young age and a big fan of Derren’s I was very interested in in the Fear episode. I had guessed it would be an exploration into placebo effects and psychology and was impressed by what I saw.
However I was a little disappointed that some of the techniques weren’t explained further. Many of them (or variants of) are used throughout CBT (cognitive Behaviour Therapy) and NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) which can have an astounding affect on various phobias and anxieties. I feel that some information on these should have been given for viewers with such problems so that they could find out more and see if they are something that could work for them (I am aware that these things do not work for everyone).

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Just wanted to ask what you think your best book would be to get started with hypnotism or suggestion for a thirteen year old girl. I am really interested in how the mind works and want to try it.

Isn't actors faking their reactions how he achieves all of his "psychological manipulation" stuff?

I stopped watching a long time ago when it became apparent to me that that was the case.

Not all of it. There are some traditional magic techniques that can achieve reactions that can be passed off as being the result of psychological manipulation.

But, generally speaking, yes. Most of it is done by Derren Brown pretending he can manipulate people in a way he really can't, and by his subjects (usually either professional actors, or aspiring actors) pretending to be manipulated in a way they really aren't.

Originally Posted by Seismosaurus

...Derren is better put into company with Sylvia Browne and John Edward.

Although he wouldn't admit it publicly, in some ways he'd consider it a compliment if people were to think so.

Quote: Me:
Peopel walk out of many mentalism show thinking the magician can read their minds by whatever means stated(body language/telepathy etc)

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I doubt that.

Doubt it all you like its true. Google Marc Salem for one.Then Marc Paul for another.

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What I say is that he claims to be able to use psychological manipulation in a way that he cannot. And he makes these claims in a way intended to make people genuinely believe him, which they do.

The way Derren says he uses psychological manipulation to do his tricks is absolutely identical to how Sylvia says she is using mediumship to contact the dead. In both cases "it's a trick and the whole idea is to use showmanship to make you believe it" isn't an excuse.

Rubbish. Sylvia Browne does not preface anything with "Im doing magic." There is no disclaimer she is portraying what she does as real and will say so off stage Derren does not either on or off.

__________________

"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

Not all of it. There are some traditional magic techniques that can achieve reactions that can be passed off as being the result of psychological manipulation.

But, generally speaking, yes. Most of it is done by Derren Brown pretending he can manipulate people in a way he really can't, and by his subjects (usually either professional actors, or aspiring actors) pretending to be manipulated in a way they really aren't.

Bolidng mine: Any evidence?

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Although he wouldn't admit it publicly, in some ways he'd consider it a compliment if people were to think so.

I don't really care whether you believe it or not, but if you're going to put your belief out in public on a sceptics' forum you'd better have something to back it up with other than "Well it's what I believe." You, sadly, don't. The sceptical thing to do at this point is to look at what you believe and ask yourself why you believe it. I wonder if you will this time?

You're missing the point.

He is an entertainer. I don't find him entertaining because my reaction to his behaviour as a whole is to assume he is lying about not using stooges. I don't know whether he is, but I think he is. Clearly I'm not the only one. so I believe my reaction is not unusual.

None of us, unless we work with him or know him, can KNOW whether he does or not - how on earth do you suggest I provide evidence that he uses stooges? There won't be any either way. There couldn't be in these circumstances. It's not important enough for there to be evidence available; he is doing nothing illegal, he is only, as you keep saying, an entertainer. We can only use our own judgement based on what he has done and said in the past.

Therefore, he is alienating a large slice of his potential audience simply because he is not entertaining them, and is doing so increasingly, as more and more people drift away from him. If he wants more people to find him entertaining, he should change.

Therefore, he is alienating a large slice of his potential audience simply because he is not entertaining them, and is doing so increasingly, as more and more people drift away from him. If he wants more people to find him entertaining, he should change.

He seems to be doing okay for himself. I'm sure there's no need to worry on his behalf.

Doubt it all you like its true. Google Marc Salem for one.Then Marc Paul for another.

*shrugs* I doubt it still, but I'll take you at your word. If it is so then the people who engage in such "acts" are indeed doing bad things, just like Derren and Sylvia.

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Rubbish. Sylvia Browne does not preface anything with "Im doing magic." There is no disclaimer she is portraying what she does as real and will say so off stage Derren does not either on or off.

Most of the TV shows Sylvia has appeared on contain disclaimers that they are "for entertainment purposes", do they not? Most "psychics" use such disclaimers, knowing that most people will not notice them or understand their real meaning. This is just what Derren does.

__________________Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul