she didn't stop with her veto pen this week. it has been three days now since arizona gof vetoed a controversial bill that would have provided legal protections to individuals and businesses who exercise their religious believes by refusing services to gay people. the state is still feeling the fallout from the immigration law that was passed back in 2010. and when they sent this new bill to the governor's desk, they

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opened up the state to a whole new national storm of controversy. that criticism didn't just come from the gay rights movement. the hispanic convention was canceled for phoenix next year. apple, american airlines and marriott hotel weighed in 0 to say they were against the measure that was on the way to the governor's desk for a signature. the nfl was also watching closely to see what happened with controversy coming just after michael sam, star defensive lineman from the university of missouri came out putting him in line to come the first openly gay player the league has ever had. they're still dealing with the ordeal of the dolphins. the allegations that jonathan martin and other ares were were bullied. the nfl was planning to hold

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next year's super bowl in arizona but will the league pull outside if brewer actually signed the bill. facing that kind of advice and that kind of scrutiny and many of national prominent republicans weighing in against the bill, the governor decided that the cost to her state would be too high. >> senate bill 1062 does not address a specific or present concern related to religious liberty in arizona. i'm not heard of one exam million in arizona with a business owner's religious liberty has been violated. it could result in unintended and negative consequences. after weighing all of the arguments i have vetoed senate bill 1062 moments ago. >> nationally the response to the veto has been huge but where exactly does that leave the state of arizona when it comes to the rights o gay people. consider this, two years ago a

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lesbian couple inside a bar in downtown phoenix was asked to leave after sharing a kiss. one of the women went home and posted the story on her facebook page and it became a big story. one year later, one year ago this week, the city council in phoenix passed on ant discrimination ordinance banning that kind of discrimination in local establishments. three other cities in arizona, tucson, flag staff and scottsdale, also enacted laws banning discrimination against the lgbt community. but for the two thirds of arizona abs who live outside the city there no protections on the books. and that ill struts something of brewer's veto seemed to have obscured. sexual orientation is not a protected class under state law in arizona.

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race, gender and religion are but being gay is not. it wasn't protected before brewer vetoed the bill and it still isn't protected after the veto. the waiting photographer refused to fake pick kpurs of the gay couple and she was sued for it. the bill she vetoed was an effort to protect against the legal challenges that could result from discrimination. even with this bill gone there is no law on arizona's books that prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. at least 12 states this year has issued legislation like arizona to extend the tide. senator mike lee of utah, conservative republican has

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introduced the marriage and religious freedom act. as they scramble topaz these laws, though, the courts seem to be moving in the opposite direction, even when it comes to red state america. just this week a federal judge ordered officials in the state of kentucky to start recognizing the marriage of same-sex couples that were performed outside of the state. and in texas, federal judge struck down that state's ban on same-sex marriage ruling that the current prohibition has no legitimate governmental purpose. the case is working its way through the appeal process now. start with don't ask don't tell, then do ma and now what's happening in the state. the pace of change of gay rights in the past few years has been staggering. with 50 states it's a lot to keep track of. what happened in arizona this week probably deserves some special attention. we probably ought to understand exactly what was stopped with

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governor brewer's signature in vetoes that bill and what wasn't. to help us understand that i want to bring in phoenix mayor greg stanton who one year ago helped usher into law op the ordinances banning discrimination in his city. mr. mayor, thanks for joining us this morning. first of all, you know the politics of arizona pretty well. nationally looking in on everything that happened there this week, we saw this pressure campaign of the business community, of the gay rights community, of a lot of national prominent republicans. but the end were you surprised at all that governor brewer vetoed the bill? and i guess the other question is, do you think she was inclined the sign the bill? >> i won't speak to what she might have done outside of the pressure but i'm sure glad it came. we dodged a bullet here in arizona this week with her decision to veto that very bad ill-adds vised bill.

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in the city of phoenix as mayor i'm in the job of business creation, trying to create a competitive economy. and so i tell people that as a city we need to be probusiness and propeople supporting all of the people in my city, all of the diverse populations including or lgbt community. that's why we passed the fully comprehensive nondiscrimination ordinance. and that would have blown up our ordinance. so it's eds for me as a mayor to say that we need laws that have inclusive, not divisive. but this week we saw the business community, both locally and nationally, speak with one voice and say to america, you have to be inclusive. you want to have the right kind of jobs, you want to compete nationally and internationally, you got to be smart about public policy. don't be divisive and ill tolerant. those are not touchy-feely policies. those are hard core smart

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economic development policies and we learn that lesson in many ways the hards way here in arizona the last week. >> explain that a little more to us, though, the current state of play in arizona because we kind of set it up in the intro. you have an ordinance on the books that ban discrimination against lgbt people in the city. but you basically have a two-tier system when i comes to protections in arizona. in the rest of arizona there are no protections currently, is that right? >> that is correct, as in much of the country. but in cities like mine, which again we're trying to compete for high wage jobs, we're moving forward. we're going to be progressive in supporting the people of our city. we have a full any inclusive ordinance that says in employment, housing and public acome occasion you cannot discriminate against people, in our case we added disability

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status or lgbt status. we're trying to send the message that we support everybody and supporting everyone, supporting all of the people in your city is probusiness and we learned that lesson. and yes, i'm the mayor so i can control the jurisdiction of my city. i want more and more city to pass similar protections and i think it would be a no-brainer that we would do things at the state and federal level to send a message about our values that we value every single person in our city and communities. >> there was a poll a few monthsing a, 75% of people in this country believe that there's a federal law that prohibits workplace discrim naigs against lgbt. i think it was about 72%. people assume that the federal law or the state law protekts against this kind of discrimination. they assume it isn't an issue. do you think that that provides an impetus in your stays going

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forward to ban discrimination statewide like you've dpun in phoenix or are politics going to get in the way. >> unfortunately this bill that shouldn't have gotten to the governor's desk did. it's not reflective of the people in our city or our state. h is a wonderfully diverse community here np arizona. we love our diverse population. these bills send a wrong message about the state of intolerance here in arizona. corporate america is way, way ahead of government on these issues. very chewly every single fortune 500 company has passed company policies that are supportive of all of their employees, including their lgbt employees. so in the case of phoenix passing our ordinance, while i may seem progressive, we're just catching up to corporate america. we know in modern society you have to do what you can do

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support the people of your community. the time for divisiveness and intolerance, that's a by gone area. you have to be smart about public policy. divisiveness and ill tolerance, they won't play today. you have to protect and support the people of your community. in phoenix that's what we're going to do. >> appreciate your time. next up within an arizona republican in a liberal former member of congress join us. [ park sounds, sound of spray paint ] ♪ we asked people a question, how much money do you think you'll need when you retire? $500,000. maybe half-million. say a million dollars. [ dan ] then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last.

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the ability to make your own choices rather than have powerful interests make them for you is too important to our future to be undone by politicians who are stuck in the past. in some states they're so far in

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the past they're even pushing laws to legalize segregation based on sexual orientation. as democrats, we've let the the other sides define the word freedom for too long. >> that was president obama yesterday. earlier in the week arizona governor jane brewer vetoed a controversial that would have allowed businesses to deny employment or services to individuals based on their religious believes. opponents said it gave business owners a license to discr discriminate. joings us now from newton, ethan o. he's a republican who opposed sb 1062. on the set here with us in new york, is chris giener, also the editor at large of salon. and representative o, i guess

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i'll start with you first were you, one of the republicans in arizona who was aposed to this. as i understand it you with in the room with or having contact with governor brew near the hours before she made her decision. i wonder if you could take us inside a little bit what the deliberations were like, what you were saying to her, what her thinking was like on this and how much suspense was there really about whether she would sign this or not? >> thank you, steve. i appreciate that. i was one of three republicans that voted against this on the floor. the afternoon that the governor vetoed this bill, there were a number of people in the room. there were the three of us and three senators who crafted the letter that said we voted for this and we regret our vote. and there were a number of other representatives in the room saying governor please veto this and if you do we'll stand behind you. in that room there was a

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majority of both chambers represented in our caucus and basically the conversation of what was wrong with this bill. but then also the reality that in this case the perception has become the reality and what other dynamics for our state in terms of economic impact and also the perception from the rest of the country. >> tell us where this bill came from. you mentioned last year there was an attempt to ge get it through, this year it got to the governor's desk. given all of that opposition that you're describing, where within the republican party in zoep did this come from and how did it get enough momentum to get passed in the first place in. >> i think a lot of states have this problem. we tend to look at things that exist in other states and frankly try to solve their problems. i thought this was a poorly written bill and attempted to solve a problem that frankly doesn't exist in arizona.

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so >> i want to bring you in here. what was so interesting to me is what the representative is describing. the business community and prominent republicans come out and really lean on republican governor of arizona to oppose this. i wonder what you make of what you saw this week. is this any kind of a turning point in terms of what's acceptable in the public's fear when it comes to the gay rights. >> i think what's happened essentially -- look, when i first got elected office 1972, i was hiding my sexual orientation. i didn't think if people knew who i was i could really win. what i have seen over these 40 years, it's a simple process. reality beats prejudice. prejudice is ignorance and prejudging when you don't have the facts. as tens of millions of americans over this 40-year period stopped

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hiding who we are, our reality has diminished the prejudice. but there's another aspect to that. and that's this fight that rpt orr, the struggle within the republican party. the most important political is the dispute between the mainstream conservative republicans and the people to their right. i'm not talking about liberal republicans. there aren't many of those left. but you have mainstream republicans, people like former senator leader bob dole who is somewhat distressed at some of what's happening. and this was another chapter in that dispute. and the problem i think is this. this is a dilemma many republicans face. the people who vote in republican primaries by and large have a rigid etiological stance than people in the general leg truck. we democrats used to be the

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victim of the wedge issue. gay rights used to be a wedge issue in which the republicans could bring it up and force us to choose. with the progress in the country over that, that's somewhat shifted. i am very pleased that people like representative orr are standing up and that's the battle that's still going op there will be a number of primaries this year between mainstream, conservative republicans who don't believe in discrimination but believe in conservative economic princip s principles. >> we put this statistics up in the first block when you ask about the question of discrimination against lgbt americans, it's just assumed that's illegal. when you ask a question about gay marriage you'll find there's majority support in plenty of supports. and there's many states in where there eats not majority support. yet, that was the issue that the

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group of republicans in arizona to chose to move forward on. >> i thought the number was stunning. it really does show that this is a core issue for people. they get it in their gut. this should be illegal. it must be illegal right? it makes it hard to fight because you need to energize people and say no, this is another area where we need action. we haven't had it yet. i think what represent frank said is so true. reality trumps prejudice. and. the more people are living with the reality of our cyst sisters, daughters, kusens and friends, it's just a businessic right and it's completely wrong. and people who are are trying to push these laws are playing to a smaller base, it's very loud and fearful and it's still going to work in some places. >> if you could explain from a legal standpoint exactly what was at stake here. again we got into this a little bit with the mayor.

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i think there's a lot of people still unclear about this. this was legislation that was to clarify ore amend a law that was on the books for 15 years. and i even saw one of the supporters of this bill said, i don't understand why -- paraphrasing, i don't understand why the gay rights community is so upset about this. if you think this makes it all right to discrimination against gay people, well, it already is okay to discriminate against gay people. what was at stake here legally? >> even the statistic that you brought forward of the 75%, that was about plimt discrimination. and this bill and what people were concerned about related to public accommodations. and the mayor mentioned that his city's law included public accommodations. in a state like arizona that doesn't have across the state public accommodations, which means when you go to the

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restaurant, to the store, to the lunch counter, you don't have the ability to say somebody is discriminating against me based on sexual orientation or gender identity in arizona right now. and so the cases that were cited when people talk about this photographly case, when they talk about the wedding cake case up in washington, those all happened in states that already had public accommodations protections. they already had something in state law that said that. >> this was a pre-emptive move then? if there's a lawsuit, there's something you want to protect the photographer who says i won't take photos of the gay wedding? >> it's like a step before pre-emptive even because it's pre-emptive if you have a public accommodations law and then you carve out this religious freedom restoration act expansion that

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could include private businesses. this is a step before that because you could haven't a lawsuit. if somebody filed a lawsuit right now, even if there was, i mean we know that governor brewer said we don't have any examples of this in our state that i've been able to find. even if you did have an example, like right now that gay couple who was refused service would have no lawsuit. so you would have to -- yeah, representative frank. >> but if i understand the mayor and you said there were several cities in arizona that has anti-discrimination laws. state law trumps municipal law. >> so if this had passed it would have wiped out the phoenix, the tucson and the flag staff ordinances. >> can i say this too? you're right about public accommodations different than other things. but i read that statute. it's an extraordinarily broad statute. it doesn't only cover public

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accommodations. if a city's ordinance says you can't discrimination in hiring or whatever, anybody can simply say that's against my religion. and by the way, there's no -- here's an important part. under that law, if it had become law, anybody can simply say it's my religion and that basically trump any other right because you don't want the state to examine the validity of individual's religion. so it's kind of the civil rights equivalent of the stand your ground law. a simple decoration by somebody this is what i feel, then cuts course of everything else. and it would apparently if it's signed null fie the municipal ordinances. >> we'll pick it up with you representative in the next segment. i want to get into how you do balance this idea of religious freedom with the freedom as the president defined it. we'll pick that up just after this break. th a burst of cool h, with a hint of powder to help absorb oil

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of the things that is sort of behind the movement in arizona and other states to pass laws like this is the example of what happened with a wedding photographer in new mexico who did not want to perform her services at a same-sex wedding and then was sued as a result of that. and she lost her case because new mexico had protections for same-sex individuals. rich lowrie, conservative who runs the national review actually wrote in defense of this law in plit ko this week. this was his defense. the question isn't whether businesses run by people opposed to gay marriage on religious ground, it's whether they should be compelled to by government. the critics pride themselves on the live and let live open mind edness but they're highly more lis tick in their support of gay marriage, judgmental of those oppose it. so i mean, joan, rich lowrie was making the point here that, you know, if a business, if a

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wedding cake baker wants to say no, i'm only going to heterosexual wedding, they can say you're a bigot, go across town. >> it's propos trous argument. he's saying it's not like people would have a hard time finding someone to do their biz. this is not a big deal, gay people. deal with it. it's so are dick lows. it reminded me of rand paul's last stand against the civil rights act where he's like well i really i like the whole thing except where it applies to public businesses. we'll patronize other businesses. this is fundamentally anti-civil rights. but they are so good at making themselves into the victim ps they're the victims here and we don't have religious freedom as long as you're forcing your

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gayness upon us. >> congress frank we started to talk about this in the last block and you were talking about how broadly written this particular bill in arizona was. i wonder if you see any theoretically -- in oregon there is something being proposed that would be a lot more narrow in scope and tell clergy members in churches that if you have a religious exception to same-sex wedding you don't have to perform them. this is a more specific narrow religious carve out to you? >> i don't know of any law anywhere that supports same-sex marriage, many of which i have fought for which would compel a clergy man to participate. it has long by the kate that ra byes do not have to marry jews and nonjews if they don't want to. it's long by the case that catholic priests don't have to mary if one has gotten a divorce

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without an anewelment. i want to add that they're being traditional in their opposition. and the argument that you got then were very similar. there were segregationers who were religiously opposed to race mixing and that's the kind of thing that would happen. as to its narrow application, first of all, they would have a problem because if you pass a law that says you have to ignore your religious objections to serving jews or muslims or divorced couples, but it's okay for gay people, you've got an equal protection problem and the supreme court has already said no you can't single out one group for that. but secondly, this notion that they can go places elsewhere. sure we can in manhattan or boston. but what about in a community where there aren't many of those

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entities. you make a distinction between personal freedom. they don't like my marriage, don't want to hang out with me and jim, wonderful. i almost wouldn't want to be in their presence. don't go to the wedding, don't say congratulation. but when you run a business you're doing that in part because a web of state laws makes it possible. what about people in a bar? i assume arizona is like other states and that you just can't open up a bar. you got to get a liquor license from the state. what if there are only a limited number of establishments that serve you? what if you were in a fairly small community where there aren't a lot of florists. this is a real depravation. if you decide to open a business, given the inevitable entanglement with the state laws, maybe there's zoning, maybe you have a certain facility and somebody couldn't open up one nearby because of the zoning restrictions, it's a very real intrusion on your

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ability to live. and as i said, they have this dilemma, if u they don't narrow it, it's too broad. >> representative orr i want to get you in here and ask where do you think arizona should go from here? sl a there is no statewide ban. where do you think arizona should go from here? >> well, first of all i want to say representative franks in absolutely right in terms of the public accommodations. we've been viewing this through the prism of morality when in reality my party and the nation needs to view this through the lens of civil rights and liberties. now in terms of where our state is going, i would support a statewide inclusion of same-sex as part of our protected classes. but what we need do is this

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needs to be a national fight. unless this is determined at the federal level, you're going to dern every city astate into a battleground and every state is going to have conversations like this. and frankly it will probably spread from state to state from there. if but if you have this conversation at the federal level once and for all, you can start to put this issue to rest. >> that is the federal issue is employment federal nondisnation act. it missed in the senate by one vote 20 years ago. if that was passed then all of these municipal and state questions around this would be moot because there would be a federal law. >> that should still only be employment, not accommodations so we would still have to deal with that. >> that would be at least half of it. i want to thank you all for joining us this morning. coming up, eric holder tells the state ags that they don't have to defend every law oun the books. is that a good thing? we'll consider that.

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the law that prevented the federal government in recognizing any marriages sween same-sex couples, it was declared inconstitutional by the supreme court in june of last year. but an argument could be made that the fate of that law actually had been sealed more than two years earlier before

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most people even knew who edy windsor was. because that's when the obama administration said it was no longer going to defend the 15-year-old law in federal court. even though d 0 oma was on the books they said if you challenge it we don't defend you. so when she argued her case last year, the attorney defending doma on the other side was not the solicitor general. it was an attorney hired by house republicans because they wanted to see the law upheld and they took the lead in defending it in court. but the obama administration, it sat the case out. this week the man who implemented that legal strategy, attorney general eric holder said he didn't know why state attorney generals could don't the same thing. he said that quote state attorneys general are not obligated to defend laws that they believe are discriminatory.

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eric holder didn't encourage them to take a panel out of the same play book, but he did say it would be really easy simply not to defend them. after all it's a strategy that's turned out well for him in the recent past. joining nenow from d.c., the state attorney general from maryland, and also with me on the set we have political analyst joan walsh and buzzfeed legal editor john geidner. i think of california and proposition 8 and jerry brown when we was the attorney general of california basically saying we're not going to defend this anymore. i wonder how you approach this to. there's a dilemma here as attorney general, maybe you disagree with the law but you're the attorney general and your job is to defend the laws of your state. how do you strike that balance? >> well you strike that balance

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every day in terms of what decisions you want to make. i mean i was actually the president of all 50 of the attorneys general and we would debates all the time about issues that were controversial where maybe the republicans would be more reticent to go after big tobacco. they all have legal underpinnin underpinnings. i think the difference in this case that attorney general holder was talking about is attorneys general around the country should and probably do recognize that the marriage equality laws are unconstitutional. so this isn't saying you should pick and choose which ones you want to defend, you really don't have to defend a law that you know to be unconstitutional. i mean maryland we've had this situation for a long time and you just put a clip up from 2011. you know, i argued in favor of marriage equality back in 2008 and then ultimately wrote an opinion in 2010 recognizing out of state same-sex marriages in

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maryland. and what's really particularly good is the law sometimes proceeds the policy discussion. i mean, i watched your show earlier and i thought one of the great thing about that whole arizona situation is how many people did not realize that right now it's actually legal for a restaurant or a place of public accommodation to discrimination against gay people, that's actually legal under the constitution of states and the fade rale government. so this dialogue is actually a positive one, i think. >> here's the flip side and this is what i was sort of thinking about this week. supporters of gay marriage i think presumably in some states where there's a marriage ban on the books would cheer in the attorney general of that sate said i'm not going to defend this in court anymore. but look at the store friday from wisconsin when scott walker first bam governor. he and the republican attorney general announced that they were going to refuse to defend a lawsuit aimed at stopping

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domestic partner registry in the sate state and they said we disagree with this law even though the law is on the books. it can cut both ways, can't it, chris? >> yeah, it certainly can. but i think that that's part of our 50-state process. and the overwhelming majority of attorneys general who have been faced with the challenge over especially since the supreme court's ruling in the windsor case have decided that this law, the supreme court justice kennedy and his opinion, sort of put the writing on the wall on this. and i'm not going to be the last attorney general standing who's defending the law. in the case of nevada, even the republican governor, ryan san do value decided that sexual orientation should be subjected to more scrutiny by courts, that under that high standard, even

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he couldn't come up with a way to defend the law so they've stopped defending it under the ninth circuit >> this was news this week or last two weeks. >> everything is moving to quickly. >> the other news was out of kentucky just this week where a federal judge ordered that out of state gay marriages need to be recognized by the state. now kentucky has a democrat governor and a democrat attorney general. and the attorney general immediately moved for a 90-day delay in this, a, to get the state ready but also to decide whether they're going to appeal this. >> the judge gave them until march 20th. >> so there's some question there about what the intent of the democrat attorney general is there. what do you think of the balance between the attorney general, you know, hey, it's the law of the state whether i like it or not? >> i do this is a really special realm where you see so much law going in the same direction.

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and chris is right, you don't want to be the last attorney general to go to the mat on something that is unconstitutional. but there's also been -- there's discretion and there's always been discretion. you had a situation in virginia where the former attorney general went to the mat to try to get his state's anti-sod my laws back on the books. but you know, they have that much discretion. so i don't think that holder -- i think that holder's comments could be applied for broadly but he was directing them in a particular direction and that limited to this issue they make a lot of sense. >> i want to get the attorney general back in here but first we have to squeeze in one quick break. back right after this. ♪ [ female announcer ] with five perfectly sweetened whole grains... you can't help but see the good. [ chainsaw whirring ] humans -- sometimes life trips us up.

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all right. we're back. and attorney general doug hans her from maryland. this may not apply in you state as much because i've seen the polling on the support for gay marriage in your states is very strong. but it's a different story in a

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lot of other states. and we just mentioned what's happening in kentucky right now where there's a democrat attorney general who has to decide by march 20th if he's going to defend his state and appeal this ruling that kentucky needs to recognize same-sex marriages from out of the state. there was also a poll that came out this week in kentucky that asked about support of gay marriage. 35 support, 55 opposed. if you could speak to how an attorney general who has to deal with the law but also has to deal with politics, because you know, attorney general in kentucky clearly has ambitions for higher office in the future. how do you balance those two things? >> this case is easy fer for attorney general conway who is extremely bright and fair. the recognition of out of state same-sex marriages in his state doesn't come under the equal protection clause. it comes under the full faith and kred clause. he's able to reconcile that. but i do think there are

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political consideration for attorneys general. they should fall low the law and they have to follow the law. but it's about priority pps that's why the attorney general is an elected position in almost every state. and they have to be cognizant of the politics of it. but you have to do the right thing. people will represent that. we started talking about attorney general holder. you can go back to robert kennedy when he was going into the southern states to talk about the civil rights act. you know, i think you have to uphold the law. and in these cases what we're talking about in terms of marriage equality and same-sex marriage is there's really -- it's hard to take the other side of it. it's hard to see how it's possibly constitutional. it may not -- you may not like it or you may love it but it's certainly unconstitutional to deny people their very basic human dignity and human rights. >> very quickly here. you're following the kentucky story pretty closely.

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that dilemma that the democrat attorney general faces, how do you expect he's going to play this one? >> he's got a second problem because the couples who were already in the case were just about -- they had been married elsewhere. but then after the judge's ruling another set of couples who aren't yet married asked to intervene in the case. they've turned this from just a marriage recognition lawsuit into a full marriage lawsuit. there's a second case that the judge has set a time line for on actual marriage in the state of kentucky. so this is, this is just starting in kentucky. and attorney general conway is going to have to decide whether or not, as a democrat -- and there are other democrats, roy cooper, the attorney general in north carolina is dealing with this. there are ags who are democrat but are in states where making that decision is still politically courageous as

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opposed to something that we can sit here and say is the obvious thing to do. >> it's really fascinating because we talk about how the gay marriage divide tracks with the red state/blue state divide. it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out in kentucky and north carolina. i want to thank you for joining me in morning. in the next hour, is joe biden the rodney dangerfield of the 2016 race? we'll look at whether he's getting the respect he deserves. and later, you know him from the cycle and from his book about prints you know him from his appearances on "up against the clock." . now along with 53 others he waits to learn his fate. did he make the tournament field or has his bubble burst? only 30 minutes into the moment of truth. it was different than the other times i tried to quit. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix varenicline

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let's talk about the agony

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of joe biden. yeah, i know, he's got it pretty good in life, all of the perks and prestige of being vice president of the united states, gets to live at in a pretty cool house. he has some serious influence in the obama administration. and no matter what else, he's guaranteed a spot in the history books. but joe biden also an ambitious man. he's run for president twice. just like most people who have held the office that he currently holtds, he sees himself as a logical -- >> i think my knowledge of foreign policy, my engagement with world leaders, my experience is uniquely positions me to be -- to follow through on the agenda barack and i have of bringing up world peace in a bay that is real asubstantive.

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>> biden said this week he's uniquely positioned to run in 2016. does that mean he's actually planning to run? >> it's a family decision and my wife is supportive and if i -- >> but you haven't said no. >> no, i absolutely have not said no. i just truly haven't made up my mind. >> that's really the point here. the fact that it's still news, big news every time joe biden flirts with running for president in 2016. this is an indignity that most vice presidents don't suffer because it's assumed by everyone from the day they take office that they're going to be angling to succeed the president that they serve. there are rare exception to this, of course, dick chaney made it clear that he doesn't looking to run for president. he had all of the power he wanted as george w. bush's vice president. but joe biden isn't dick chaney. it's like they have to

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constantly remind themselves that joe biden a two-time vice president untainted by scandal serving a president that's deeply popular within their party, they have to remind themselves that joe biden might be interested many being president himself. this extends to biden's own circle 0 friends and allies. the profile of the skrpt this yeek, politico's glen thrush reported that every one of the dozen friends i interviewed predicted he wouldn't run for president in 2016. we all know why this is of course. it's because everyone figures hillary clinton is going to run and nobody believes that biden will challenge her in a primary. this has nothing to do with whatever personal friendship exists between the two of them or any sense on biden's part that maybe hill vi a better fit for the job than he is. but it does have everything to do with some truly shocking numbers np the history of modern

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presidential politics, some truly understand precedented numbers. let's go back to 1986. this is the midway point of ronald reagan's presidency. george w. bush wanted to succeed ray gone in 1988. spent a good chunk of his time shoring up his standing with the republican party, adjusting his positions, winning over skeptical leaders. but what helped bush most was his linkage with the president. republicans love the gripper and george h. bush was his loyal vice president. so when they took a poll and skds republicans who they wanted their 1998 nominee to be. 53 for bush, 16% for his nearest competitor. that's what the vice presidency is supposed to do for you. if bush had not been reagan's

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number two, this's no way he would have been lapping the field in that 1986 poll. but as reagan's lieutenant he was the obvious consensus successor for a majority of republicans. he started out with a huge advantage and the burden was on his challengers to rethink their instincts. bush's republican challengers failed to do that. there were a few bumps in the road. he finished third place in the iowa caucuses behind dole and pat robertson. but overall bush plowed through the 1998 primaries and won the nomination with ease. quote, on the republican side, the high popularity of president reagan kept bush from sinking and blocked dole. a pollster who did work for jack kemp said that in new hampshire of the south, the 0 hegs of support of ray gn and bush couldn't be broken. it didn't break off at all even after bush's iowa loss.

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now let's look at the next time after george h.w bush. the al gore who had run once for president, bill clinton added him to his ticket and he made no secret of his ambition to take over for clinton when his two terms were up. bill clinton was very popular within his own party as the 2000 election cycle began and that popularity easily rubbed off on his vice president. here's january 1999 gallop poll of democrats. look at the number, al gore way ahead, 47%. again if gore hadn't been the vice president for two terms, he would never had had that kind of leg up heading into 2000. and that leg up translated into an avalanche of early endorsements and campaign cash, all of which ended up intimidating all but one democrat, bill bradley out of

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running against gore in 2000. if you like where bill clinton and i have taken the party in the country, then let's not mess with a good thing. clinton was invested in this. so it wasn't a coincidence when clinton skeblgd his annual state of the union across for the week between the iowa caucuses and the primary. million os democrats tuning in at home. it might as well have been a campaign ad for the vice president. >> tonight i propose that we follow vice president gore's suggestion to make low-income parents eligible for the insurance that covers their children. >> gore actually set a record in 2000. he became the first and still the only candidate for an open presidential nomination in the modern era to run every single

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caucus. bradley doesn't win a single state. that's the power of the vice presidency. and that's what joe biden on some level had to think he was getting when he signed on with barack obama back in 2008. he had run for president in 1998 and it had been a disaster. he would run again in 2008 only to be totally overshadowed by obama and hillary. here was a chance to change the equation, to join the obama ticket to radically expand his profile and assume obama got reelected to spend the next eight years to position himself as the candidate of continuity for 2016. to get from the vice presidency exactly what george bush and al gore had gotten before him. who do u quantity to be our party's candidate in 2016? he is losing to hillary clinton by 61 points. that's what i mean by shocking

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and unprecedented. we haven't seen a sitting two-term vice president boxed out like this ever before the modern era of presidential politics. two terms as vice president hasn't been enough to maim him competitive with clinton. she's gotten more of a lift out of the obama years as serveging secretary of state. he's gotten more out of these years arguably than biden. another poll this week found that 82% of democrats want hillary to run while only 42% want bide nn the race. glen thrush reports that biden's mind is much on clinton these days and he's often told friends he thinks he can beat her because he's seen her up close and judges her his equal. but we've never seen numbers like we're seeing, a sitting two-term vice president more than 60 points behind someone. it's not that they don't think

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he can win, it's that they see the potential for a epically lopsided loss, the kind of loss that could reduce his that chur and place in history. pride can cut both ways. maybe he's too prideful to risk getting swamped by hillary. he caught the big break in waiting that was supposed to give him one more shot, one real shot of winning the white house. how hard would it be for someone as driven as joe biden to stand down and accept a fate he doesn't want? here's one final observation from glen thrush about those 12 biden fans who told him they don't think biden will run. then again every single one said it wouldn't be a surprise if he jumped in at the last minute to keep the great ride going for as long as possible. is there any room for joe biden to run in 2016?

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why hasn't he reaped the same benefits from his office that bush and gore did. let's talk about all of this and more. we have msnbc analyst joe walsh back at the table, seth was a staff member of hillary clinton's campaign and bill press. thank you. welcome to all of you. bill, i'll start with you. you know, joe biden wants us to think he's seriously looking at run in 2016. do you believe he seriously looking at it or does hillary just completely box him out? >> first of all, i have to say i've been saying that any people who spend their time talking about 2016 should lose their license as medial reporters. >> i'll hand that over. >> i'm glad to be here and to talk about it. look, i think he's serious, hillary is serious. there's some other people out there too that you didn't mention. there are a lot of democrats who

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are talking to bernie sanders, and andrew cuomo. i think these polls are meaningle meaningless. i would say sure, hillary had a good ride but it's a long way away. you bring as much experience as anybody else, certainly as she would. if you want do it, go for it. i still think it's wide open. >> i look at these numbers and i see something different. two years out before a presidential primary it's very early and we can cite hillary clinton at this point 2006 would have looked a lot stronger. but we have not seen numbers like this for an open seat before. you compound that with the fact that biden is a sitting vice president. if he were you know former delaware governor sitting against hillary clinton that would be one thing. he's the sitting vice president of the states. >> i want to put on the record i'm a great admirer of joe

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biden. if hillary were not in the race, if he ran he could beat any of these republicans that are throwing their hats in the ring. they're all terrible. so more power to joe biden. however he can't run against her. he can't. the thing that hillary has is this sense of history and what the democrats have -- let's get back to 2014 because we're worried about 2014. but what they have in 2016 is an incredible demographic advantage that they can't squander. and hillary clinton's sense of history, her poll with woman, her consolidating the women's vote entirely on the democrat side, those are things that are going to be very powerful. the only way that joe biden could run against hillary would be to really run against hillary and really be the anti-hillary. that would actually require him running against barack obama. for him to really be -- you know, there's a line that glen thrush was really interesting, very well reported. there's a line in there where

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he's pondering maybe he would be populous insurgent against her. i'm sorry he can't do that. he would have to implicitly criticize his bos. he's not going to split the obama coalition. >> seth, you're with the ready for hillary group. we talk about how unprecedented the position we're in right now. is the group ready for hillary? i haven't seen this for a nonsitting vice president you know this far out. is your goal to clear the field for hill tri-clinton that she will not face primary opposition? >> our goal is to show her the support that she will have if she decides to run. we don't know. we don't know what hillary will do. we don't know what the vice president will do. we can sit and speculate but we want to encourage hillary to run and be ready in the event that she does to support her with now 2 million supporter ps.

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last time i sat on your show wer were at 100,000 np now at nearly 2 million. one of the reasons that hillary stands in a class of her own is not just the poll numbers that you mentioned but also the enthusiastic grass roots support behind her. so many supporters who were with her in 2008, some so some of obama supporters, so many people who were too young to be part of the process then are enthusiastic. and cutting across the demographics of the democrat par pity. >> here's my problem with this. i'm a huge hillary clinton fan. i supported her over barack obama in 2008 as a democrat. and but we've seen this movie before. i mean everything that i hear today about hillary clinton i heard in 2007 inevitable, the most experienced, nobody else could beat her. this one person who didn't believe that, he's the president of the united states today. so i don't want to -- i think a

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primary is good for the party, it's good for the candidates, it's good for the country. and i'm just leerily about this, oh, forget about biden, it's got to be hillary. >> i love a competitive primary as much as anyone else for either party. i think it's healthy for any political party. but clearly her position, her stature has changed dramatically. now whether that could change back remains to be seen. but i want to talk about what has happened in the last five years to get her to this place. if we went back in a time machine to the spring of 2008 when barack obama sort of emerged as the clear nominee and you said this is where hillary clinton is going to be sitting at the start of 2014, nobody would have believed you. ty deli! just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber! to help support regularity! i want some...

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so here's hillary clinton's twitter bio. he calls herself wife were mom, lawyer, women and kid's advocate, first lady of ar a, first lady of united states, glass ceiling cracker, tbd. this is her spns this week shen we was asked about tbd. >> can you give us some insight into how the tbd in your bio will play out? >> i would really like to but i have no characters left. >> so she's playing it coy, no surprises there. but joan, we were talking in the last segment just about how much hillary clinton's stature has changed in the democrat party. we went into the 2008 cycle, she

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was the inevitable candidate. at around this time he was pulling 45% of so. she's now over 70% as we say against a sitting vice president. you remember we all remember how deep that divide was in the democrat party in the 2008 primaries. it got to the point where state after state you could just look at the dem photographics of the state and you would say this is an obama state, this is a clinton state. you could go all the way through the spring doing that. how did it get to the point that that history has apparently just completely washed away and there's this consensus at least for the moment behind hillary clinton? what's happened? >> there's a pair docks about that history. the end of the 2008 primary on one level was very bitter. there were a lot of obama people -- there are still people who are still mad at her. she's probably got a few more fences to mend. this is devicive, you're tearing him down, why don't you get out of the race. at the same time she was showing a side of herself to women and to other people that we really

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hadn't seen before, that fight hillary clinton the last three months of the campaign was really something to behold and taught us a lot about her character, her personality and warmth and grit. she won the enduring loyalty of a lot of other people. now what did he do when he finally did at mitt that she loss? she set to work working as hard as she could for candidate obama in the election, bringing her angry husband on board too. the two of them worked very hard and then she took the job of secretary of state and they worked on the relationship is that she was able to consolidate both the admiration that he had won from her admirers and mend fences with people that she had offended. it's really quite remarkable. >> how much did being secretary of state -- i'm imagining an alternate universe where she's

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not chosen for secretary of state she stays in the senator, she's there for all of the shutdowns and the drama. and you look at the overall approval rating of congress right now. if she had not taken that job as secretary of state which took her out of the day to day political wars of the last five years and made her this states woman figure, do you think that's a big reason for the numbers that we see now? >> absolutely. if she had not taken that job we wouldn't be talking about her today. first of all i think it was brilliant of obama to name her and brilliant of her to take it. and she did it out of two reasons. she is a dedicated loyal servant. she also saw that this keeps her in the public eye. az and as so happened, president obama is busy with the health care stuff, she doesn't have to be talking health care. she's on the plane. she did a damn good job as secretary of state and it really raised her profile and her

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likeability. i think she repaired a lot of those bridges just but doing such a good job. >> we're at this -- we could blame rand paul for the start of this. just a few weeks ago we started talking about the 1990s again. but now the news yesterday is a bunch of documents, 33,000 pages of documents from the clinton library document wills be released over the next few weeks, the first batch of 4,000 or so came out yesterday. we were looking through this for any of the big news. you know, the big headline out of this is they thought health care was going to be hard to pass. who knew? there's a couple of quotes about that. >> shocking. >> but the other one is there was somebody advised to improve her image by going on the sitcom "home improvement." that one never happened. here's a strategy memo when he was setting out to run for senate in new york. this is the middle of 1999.

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number five tip, be careful to quote be real. and then of course number eight was despite everything know about you personally, they actually know very little. 15 years ago, i'm thinking about that, that would probably have been the same strategy memo to her today. >> well i love the "home improvement" bit. i grew up in the, came of age in the '90s. and all of the girls loved jonathan taylor thomas. it was a good show. as far as that memo is concerned, it was a lot of advise that any pr professional would give to any candidate. but going back to as far as what has changed since 2008, i think one of the main things that's changed is the american people got to see hillary clinton as secretary of state, being herself, having fun, writing tbd on her profile, having a beer and dancing with her staff, and

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these are all good things. i think the advice is direcorre. and if the american people get to see the hillary clinton that many of us have gotten to know, that would be a very appealing. >> do we know her bet center. >> i think seth is right. that person mandy was talking to who was often hiding behind her reserved persona, i think it has come across more at the end of the campaign but also as she travelled the world and got more playful and played with her online persona. i think more of that humor and warmth has come out. >> she's a great person. the document dump, people ought to feel sorry for all of us. i'm still trying to get through the chris christie e-mails, then we got the scott walker e-mails and now we got to read the hill

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t -- hilly clinton e-mails. >> so we start thd as a discussion of joe biden and fittening it's been overshadowed by hillary clinton. we're going to return it to joe biden and talk about his future and legacy as vice president. we'll talk about that just after this. thinking up game-changing ideas, like this: dozens of tax free zones across new york state. move here. expand here. or start a new business here... and pay no taxes for 10 years. with new jobs, new opportunities and a new tax free plan. there's only one way for your business to go. up. find out if your business can qualify at start-upny.com oh, there's a prize, all right. [ male announcer ] inside every box of cheerios are those great-tasting little o's made from carefully selected oats that can help lower cholesterol. is it a superhero? kinda. ♪

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♪ ♪ i was planning on making a major announcement tonight but i decided tonight is your night. >> thank you. >> and so -- >> thank you. >> so i hope you'll invite me back. >> absolutely. >> amy, your 2016 plans? >> i'm going to run for president. >> great. >> vice president of the united states, joe biden everyone. >> the vice president of joe biden in one of his many media appearances this week. how do you think this is going to play out. obviously if hillary clinton she

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sides she's not going to run for president, i think joe biden is the first one in the race. if she does run, my bet is he doesn't run and i'm not sure who else would. but how do you think this is going to play out. is there going to be some moment before he makes her decision where she sits down with them and there's a joint, almost a joint announcement? i'm sure she doesn't want to make it look like he's being pushed aside by her even if that's what's happening. >> i don't know how they will handle this. i just know in my gut that he wouldn't run against her. it's just too much. there still is a possibility until she declares i think he's saying what he needs to say. he can't say well i'll only run if she doesn't run. i mean that makes him look weak and lame. i think he's saying all of the things he needs to say to keep his options open. but at the end of the day if he runs, he does not run. how that finesse it is probably a question that's beyond me. but i'm sure he'll be everything

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he can to support her if she runs. that's what my gut tells me. >> scale of one to ten, you're trying to get her to run. how confident are you that she will run? >> i can't put a number on it. >> come on. >> no, i wouldn't want to do that. i wouldn't want to do that. we're showing her the support that she has and getting ready. we don't know what she'll do and that's quite frankly we're doing the work that we're doing now because we don't know what she will decide. we don't know what will come next. we do know that a lot of people support her and we know there's an important election this year and that's why we're going to be encouraging our nearly 2 million supporter to get out and vote and volunteer for the midterm candidates this year. >> joe biden obviously was speaking to the dnc this week sort of sounding all of the 2014 themes. do we expect hillary clinton out there a lot for that this year? >> i think we will. it's wide open, go for it.

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in the meantime, 2014, 36 senate seats, 36 governorships. focus on 2014. >> i don't like the idea that the democrats are focusing on 2016 and ignoring 2014. she doesn't want to be president if we lose the senate. >> if the democrats lose the senate this year, the map is so unfavorable to them this year, it's a lot more favorable in 2016. there's a chance for a democrat presidential candidate to carry that back in 2016. but i want to thank radio host bill press, joan walsh and seth. crystal ball, she's on the cycle on weekdays but right now he's squarely on the bubbles. but he impressive enough to earn one of the nine slots in our tournament of champions. the selection committee has made and made their decisions. we're all in the dark here but the suspense is about to end.

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make it delicious with swanson. when you're the president of the united states you're expected to make any number of crucial decisions including what's become a new annual tradition. filling out a march madness bracket. >> today we're here to celebrate a louisville team that always played hard, that always worked together, that stayed focused on one singular goal and that is to bust my bracket. i've been having a tough time lately on my brackets. >> that's president obama joking with the louisville team. if you're like me you look forward to the drama, the upsets and all of the cinderella stories.

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this year we're going to expand the fun to "up against the o'clock." because after five months of play we're ready to hall our own tournament and crown our own champion. who will be in and who will be out. the selection show is next. get your pencils and paper ready. we are about to review the bracket. he house? uh-huh. yea. alright, whenever you get your stuff, run upstairs, get cleaned up for dinner. you leave the house in good shape? yea. yea, of course. ♪ [ sportscaster talking on tv ] last-second field go-- yea, sure ya did. [ male announcer ] introducing at&t digital life. personalized home security and automation. get professionally monitored security for just $29.99 a month. with limited availability in select markets. ♪ with limited availability in select markets. hey there, i just got my bill, and i see that it includes my fico® credit score. yup, you get it free each month to help you avoid surprises with your credit. good. i hate surprises. surprise! at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card and see your fico® credit score.

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live from studio 3 a in rockefeller center usa. it's time for a special tournament of champions selection edition of "up against the clock." >> you are the winner. >> for five months you've seen the suspense, anticipation, all of the drama unfold as 54 players have stood on contestant's row. and today only nine will be chosen to play in the tournament of champions. >> it is correct. >> who's in, who's out? who's bubble will be burst?

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and whose dream will come true. march madness begins right now. here's the host of "up against the clock", steve kornacki. >> that is bill wolf, the voice of "up against the clock." and this is the moment we have been building toward all season. 54 players as bill just told you have competed on contestant's row this year for glory, prices and honor and for a chance to compete for the ultimate crown in the "up against the clock" tournament of champions. the next few minutes are going to be bitterly disappointing for 45. there are only nine spots in our other version of march madness. the search committee has finalized our bracket. in just a moment we'll let you know who made it and who missed the cut. here's the road map of what's ahead for the tournament.

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the first round of action kicks off next saturday starting at 9:30 eastern, the first of three matchups. three for players will compete on march 15th, we'll take a week off with play resuming on march 29th. and then it aural comes to a dramatic conclusion on april 5th when the winner wills meet in one epic showdown to crown the first one national champion. a word on the selection process. in order to be chosen contestants must have won their regular season competition. that is where the objectivity wins and the speak las vegas begins. there isn't enough room in the field for every regular season winner. it's a mysterious process but the committee has made its selections and here to help me make sense of this are our former host of nickelodeon's

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double dare and a one time guest host of "up against the clock," mark summers when and mike, a sports contributor at npr. welcome, thank you for being part of this historic day. we'll figure it out as we go along. >> i've been tolling over this extensive list of names so we take this very seriously. >> i can't imagine that the work that the committee had to do. >> we sequestered ourself rs in a hotel room for two days, we watched all of the hbo sere rus "true detective tif" and in the last moment we did this. hearts will be broken, dreams will be made. >> let's show you you what the

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committee has come up with. there are nine total players with the winner of each subgroup advancing to the championship game. we'll start with the first group and that honor goes to jeff smith. he's a former missouri state senator and professor at the school who left the selection committee no choice by putting up the highest score of the entire season, a whopping 1900 points. a quick thought on jeff smith here. >> here's my thought. first of all, you're being very kind because you actually scored 1900 points as well when you played. >> in an exhibition match. >> that's true. >> i'm sort of leaning toward the fact that you should be participating in this as well. 1900 is pretty remarkable when you look at some of these people who had minus scores. krystal ball was a negative.

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melissa harris perry, minus 500. you got to give props to jeff smith >> as you know, i've done the analys analysis. this guy has an extremely high rpi, really puzzling individual. >> number one pri, good strength of schedule,deserving seat. joining jeff is norm orstein from the american enterprise institute. he put up 13000 points. number three seed, buzzfeed's kate nocera. she secured her spot just last week. she will be the number three seed in this group. so there you go, jeff smith jervis norm orstein, versus kate

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nocera. what do we make of this grouping? >> i like kate nocera, the dark horse, quick on the buzzer. norm orstein, adetected a scoring anomaly. now it doesn't affect the final score but in terms of your mental condition going into the final round, i think that that could have affected things. i think norm orstein benefitted from that. show good sportsmanship. and if you watch the tape, he shakes his hand. >> do you think your highly technical and advanced white board scoring system might have missed 100 points in that game? >> i think you couldn't subtract. >> by the way, i've been told that the scoring system that you can read when this game is being played in the finals will pop up? >> this is the most exciting

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news of the day. real authentic scoreboard. they will be part of the tournament. let's get to the second part of the bracket. the next group will compete on march 15. the number one seed in this group and he is isaac chot near. she scored 1600 points. joining sigh zack is number two seed, alex seitd-wald. he brought in 1200 points. and the final spot in this group, the third seed go to usa today susan page. she scored 1200 points in beating robert costa. ie zam, alex and susan page. size this one up for us. >> i think mike is taking this a

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little too seriously. it's what bracket triviaologist do. >> i handicap this like horses and quite honestly i look at overall background, education and what that do on a daily basis. for that reason i'm going to susan page. she's going to be the most well rounded knowledge wise. her job makes her kind of know a little bit about everything. and becausy ear doing topical things, topical events that happen that week, i think susan has the best shot. >> i like susan coming out of this bracket too. he would play the game the way it was supposed to be paid. this is an old college bowl tricky you say cbs and benghazi. she knows what she's doing. she would only give the right answer, the last name of the person.

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susan page knows how to play the game. i have questions with the other two strength of schedule. >> the strength of schedule is an was on fire. the competition you can question. >> sally cohn was kind of playing the game like she didn't understand the rules. >> there was investigation over whether there was some point shaving going on there. nothing ever turned up. >> all right. we have one more set of three players here. the final three to make this tournament. we're going to have them now. they'll compete march 29th. this is headed by the number 3 overall seed in the tournament. that goes to salon.com's brian beutler. he took down basil michael and liz winstead. for whatever reason, the selection committee gave the number two overall seed to schatner. they have a got shot meeting in the final. i think they do. these two don't. there are only two spots

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remaining in the tournament. let's go back to the bracket and show you those. the second to the last competitor, the number two seed will be elahe izadi. she scored 1400 points in the late season win over casey hunt and steve cohn of tennessee. that leaves us with the ninth and final slot. the number three seed, there are a lot of anxious people watching from their homes right now, a lot of legitimate contenders whose names have not been called. jonathan kpartz. we have yet to hear the name krystall ball. she hosted up against the clock. we haven't heard blake zeff, suzy kim. two of the people who answered the bonus question. joan walsh is standing by holding out hope. here to find out the final spot in the 2014 tournament of champions it goes to, krystall ball. >> yes.

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>> krystall ball, actually, there she is. live on skype celebrating at home with her family. the final seed in the tournament. this is what it's all about. krystall clearly emotional. the ball family, this is a big moment. congratulations to you for krystall. this is the final reach. beutler, izadhi, krystal ball. >> i like izadhi. krystal, it's interesting. she played the game under a different set of rules. when she played, you couldn't buzz in early. i think that affected things. it's like comparing the pre-steroid ear ro to the steroid era. this is a wide open bracket. beutler is strong. i'm going with beutler. >> i was impressed with izadhi.

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not a single member of congress or former congressmen who appeared, we had ten of them, not a single one won. >> says a lot about our country. first of all, i think mike's had a little too much coffee. my feeling is krystall ball. i think she's going to win this thing. i think she's going to take it all. >> thanks, guys. >> i think she's going to take it because she's on "the cycle" every day surrounded by this knowledge. i think she has one step up on everybody playing. i'm going for krystall not only in that category. >> mark is taking krystall. >> who is your national title pick? >> susan paige. she plays it the way it was meant to play. >> congratulations. that is your field of nine. our march madness is ready to go. congratulations, krystall. exciting on "up." final thoughts with our analysts right after this. ve got to cred. to help me become an olympian, she was pretty much okay with me turning her home into an ice rink.

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our selection show ran long. that will have to do it. i want to thank our game show expert mark summers and sports reporter, now bracket triveotologist. thank you. we'll have exclusive reporting on where the chris christie investigation is headed next. coming up, ari picks up the nerd land baton as melissa harris-perry continues her maternity leave. justin bieber turns 20. yes, a justin segment on mhp. ari in nerd land is next. g supp. that's why he created the magic eraser extra power. just one eraser's versatile enough to clean all kinds of different surfaces and three times more grime per swipe. so instead of fussing with rags and buckets, you can get back to the great outdoors, which can be pretty great. that's why when it comes to clean,

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