You're talking actual 4th line players. Couturier is not a 4th line player. Unless, as I said, we're just going to roll 4 lines.

I know. I know.

For now, I'm fine with him being on the 4th. Although, I thought he maybe should have moved to 3rd tonight. Hopefully, Lavi starts giving him some upper line minutes soon. But as was said earlier, they're just trying to win some games right now.

How is he not playing a "real role" with the team? He's one of the best defensive forwards on the team right now. That's a pretty damn real and important role. Just because he hasn't scored 100 goals so far doesn't mean he's being wasted.

One of the best defensive forwards? Have you been paying attention lately? He isn't currently being utilized as one of the best defensive forwards. He is being used in a 4th line role that gets to play against the opposing team's 4th lines. He plays on the PK, but even his role there has been decreased some as he has been bumped down to the second unit.

It is a role, but it is a role that can be easily filled by someone on the Phantoms. You don't need your 18 year old blue chip prospect to fill that role.

What is the benefit to the Flyers and to Couturier to keep him in such a minimized role?

Before tonight, Talbot was already ahead of him by 2 seconds. 2 seconds is small potatoes, but Talbot was already moved up to the 3rd line with Nodl who should have been playing anyways.

This is per game though, not even-strength.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChumpyG

I know. I know.

For now, I'm fine with him being on the 4th. Although, I thought he maybe should have moved to 3rd tonight. Hopefully, Lavi starts giving him some upper line minutes soon. But as was said earlier, they're just trying to win some games right now.

Right, well, then in February when Holmgren trades for a defensive bottom-six forward and Couturier gets even less ice time, we'll see how important he is to winning games.

When Rinaldo sits or is sent back to the Phantoms, and Schenn returns moving Talbot back down to the 4th line with Couturier and Shelley, we'll be paying our 4th line more than our 3rd. That is far from prudent spending and cap management.

More productive can mean a better contract, but if Holmgren decides to lock him up long term and pay him on potential there might not be a a significant difference in signing him at 20 than signing him at 21

If the Flyers sign Couturier to a deal at 20 that "pays on potential" the logical assumption is that it also carries the same kind of risk premium as the JVR contract and has the same kind of potential back-end windfall for the Flyers. The way you're framing this still only looks at the deal from one side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

You also keep ignoring that at 21 he would be due a raise when Briere comes off the books so they would better be able to afford him. Your argument holds no water because the potential of a larger contract at 21 isn't problematic. It's re-signing him at 20 when they have to sign four other players that is problematic.

2014 isn't the only year that matters and there's no telling if the Briere expiration will be the decisive factor you are making it out to be. For the most part, we have no idea what could develop between now and then that changes the Flyers decision-making parameters down the line. It is possible that a less favorable dollar/term for the Flyers on Couturier's deal beyond 2014 could also have a negative impact on other resources. It's also possible that it won't matter that much either way. If the cap rises 5% every year, that's $10 M more space for the 2014-2015 season than exists now.

With such a cap, the Flyers would have ~$30 M to spend on additions and raises to the current salaries of Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Read, Simmonds, Voracek, Gustafsson and Meszaros combined to a roster that includes Pronger, Bryzgalov, JVR, Briere, Carle/Coburn and Talbot.

Here were my limits for 2014-2015 with a conservative 5% annual cap increase:

I'm basing my premise on Holmgren's track record as the general manager of the Flyers. Holmgren spends up to the cap each and every season. You are attempting to present the best case scenario, but it is not based on reality. What makes you think Holmgren is going to leave over $10M in cap space free when that goes against everything he has done as GM? Holmgren has demonstrated over and over again that he does not plan beyond the current season. It is his M.O. to spend right up to the cap which typically results in some sort of cap jam. You are also basing your premise on the assumption that he will let both Hartnell and Timonen walk without attempting to re-sign or replace either of them. I believe that it is the least likely outcome. You're dreaming if you don't believe he won't attempt to replace Timonen instead of allowing his defense to be built around a 39 year old Pronger. You are also overlooking that Simmonds will need a new contract which will eat up some of the cap space. It is completely unrealistic to expect all of that cap space to be free. Maybe he will leave some space for the contracts the following summer, but it is something he has never done as GM.

It is far from a given that the Flyers will be able to re-sign Couturier, Schenn, and Read.

I never said it was. But I'm not going to try to mount a defense for future-crime. If the the Flyers fill some gaps with short contracts (1 or 2 years) and let some big fish expire, the space should be there when they need it for extensions beyond 2014.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

I understand how JVR contract's work. The point is they paid top dollar to get him locked up. I doubt a year is going to make a significant difference in his worth on the market.

Well you keep bringing up the JVR contract while neglecting to mention why both sides saw it as beneficial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

Couturier is playing in a role that can be easily filled by someone on the Phantoms. How is it a benefit to have him on the team in that role? If he was getting 3rd line minutes and PP time it would be different.

Couturier beat out all those Phantoms and he is playing his role tremendously. How is it a benefit to have Couturier play great shut-down defense and chip in some offense on the 4th line and boost the penalty kill? I think that is self-evident.

[QUOTE=Libertine;38704551]One of the best defensive forwards? Have you been paying attention lately? He isn't currently being utilized as one of the best defensive forwards. He is being used in a 4th line role that gets to play against the opposing team's 4th lines. He plays on the PK, but even his role there has been decreased some as he has been bumped down to the second unit.

It is a role, but it is a role that can be easily filled by someone on the Phantoms. You don't need your 18 year old blue chip prospect to fill that role.

What is the benefit to the Flyers and to Couturier to keep him in such a minimized role?[/QUOTE]

This has been my concern all along. I always think it is wiser to stay safe and leave young players in lower levels where they can get lots of playing time and play in all situations. The Flyers won't return him to junior now. He'll just play 8-12 minutes a game on the 4th line. As long as he plays, I guess that's good. I still would rather have him play 25 minutes a night in junior. That's usually how detroit handles their prospects, but why anyone would mimic their treatment of prospects, I don't know. It's not like they've been successful or anything.

[QUOTE=Damaged Goods;38706969]If the Flyers sign Couturier to a deal at 20 that "pays on potential" the logical assumption is that it also carries the same kind of risk premium as the JVR contract and has the same kind of potential back-end windfall for the Flyers. The way you're framing this still only looks at the deal from one side.

2014 isn't the only year that matters and there's no telling if the Briere expiration will be the decisive factor you are making it out to be. For the most part, we have no idea what could develop between now and then that changes the Flyers decision-making parameters down the line. It is possible that a less favorable dollar/term for the Flyers on Couturier's deal beyond 2014 could also have a negative impact on other resources. It's also possible that it won't matter that much either way. If the cap rises 5% every year, that's $10 M more space for the 2014-2015 season than exists now.

With such a cap, the Flyers would have ~$30 M to spend on additions and raises to the current salaries of Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Read, Simmonds, Voracek, Gustafsson and Meszaros combined to a roster that includes Pronger, Bryzgalov, JVR, Briere, Carle/Coburn and Talbot.

Here were my limits for 2014-2015 with a conservative 5% annual cap increase:

I never said it was. But I'm not going to try to mount a defense for future-crime. If the the Flyers fill some gaps with short contracts (1 or 2 years) and let some big fish expire, the space should be there when they need it for extensions beyond 2014.

[QUOTE=Libertine;38658533]I understand how JVR contract's work. The point is they paid top dollar to get him locked up. I doubt a year is going to make a significant difference in his worth on the market.

Well you keep bringing up the JVR contract while neglecting to mention why both sides saw it as beneficial.

Couturier beat out all those Phantoms and he is playing his role tremendously. How is it a benefit to have Couturier play great shut-down defense and chip in some offense on the 4th line and boost the penalty kill? I think that is self-evident.[/QUOTE]

Do you think an 18 year old can keep that up? Can you name another 18 yr old player who has come in to perform great penalty kill as a rookie for the entire season? I'm seriously, I don't know if there has been anyone.

One of the best defensive forwards? Have you been paying attention lately? He isn't currently being utilized as one of the best defensive forwards. He is being used in a 4th line role that gets to play against the opposing team's 4th lines. He plays on the PK, but even his role there has been decreased some as he has been bumped down to the second unit.

It is a role, but it is a role that can be easily filled by someone on the Phantoms. You don't need your 18 year old blue chip prospect to fill that role.

What is the benefit to the Flyers and to Couturier to keep him in such a minimized role?

If you know me, you know that I am not shy about ripping into Holmgren for, what I deem, mistakes. Yet, I'm actually ok with the Couturier move. I didn't want him up here prior to the season starting, but after seeing how he is being used, I think he is getting enough time to help him grow as a player. He's getting ~13 minutes a night. That's really not too bad at all.

Now, he's had a few games as the 3rd line C which inflated those numbers a bit; but once everyone is healthy, and he's been seeing strict 4th line C time we can make a better judgement. Hopefully he sticks around the 13 minute mark. If he starts threatening below 10 minutes, then I question the decision.

His ELC status is irrelevant. The whole team turned over last summer, and could turn over again before then anyway.

The Zubrus comparison isn't relevant because the problem Zubrus had was that he had only played Tier 2 Jr in Ontario, not major Jr. Most of us wanted to see him play in Jr. to get more experience in at a higher level of Jr.

Couturier played three complete seasons in the Q. He has light years more offensive experience than Zubrus did, at a higher level of hockey. He made the team out of camp and that's all that matters.

Burning an ELC year, so friggin' what? People who worry about crap like that really need to consider the option of getting lives.

it is relevant as he will need to be paid sooner rather than later. you dont take a kid with very good offensive skills and play him with players who do not. that is a waste.

the zubrus comparison is a relevant on a smaller scale as i said. zubrus still hasnt found his offensive game and never will. playing him on the 4th line will stunt his offensive growth.please explain to me how it will not. last i checked zubrus made the team out of camp which is even more impressive considering the league he came from, so i guess that is all that matters. I guess i will need to get a life because burning a year off his contract is a concern. if you say say cupcake.

it is relevant as he will need to be paid sooner rather than later. you dont take a kid with very good offensive skills and play him with players who do not. that is a waste.

the zubrus comparison is a relevant on a smaller scale as i said. zubrus still hasnt found his offensive game and never will. playing him on the 4th line will stunt his offensive growth.please explain to me how it will not. last i checked zubrus made the team out of camp which is even more impressive considering the league he came from, so i guess that is all that matters. I guess i will need to get a life because burning a year off his contract is a concern. if you say say cupcake.

If they would just get rid of Shelley / Rinaldo and bring back Harry Z, that 4th line wouldn't even be so bad for Couturier...

Talbot has some offense skills as he has demonstrated in the early going for us. And even Rinaldo isn't terrible... but when big, lumbering Shelley is on that line, it kills the offense.

This has been my concern all along. I always think it is wiser to stay safe and leave young players in lower levels where they can get lots of playing time and play in all situations. The Flyers won't return him to junior now. He'll just play 8-12 minutes a game on the 4th line. As long as he plays, I guess that's good. I still would rather have him play 25 minutes a night in junior. That's usually how detroit handles their prospects, but why anyone would mimic their treatment of prospects, I don't know. It's not like they've been successful or anything.

I have to say you were right about sending him back. I thought he would see more minutes than he has, but the Flyers have a log jam of forwards and Lavi trusts the more experienced players at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUHockey9

If you know me, you know that I am not shy about ripping into Holmgren for, what I deem, mistakes. Yet, I'm actually ok with the Couturier move. I didn't want him up here prior to the season starting, but after seeing how he is being used, I think he is getting enough time to help him grow as a player. He's getting ~13 minutes a night. That's really not too bad at all.

Now, he's had a few games as the 3rd line C which inflated those numbers a bit; but once everyone is healthy, and he's been seeing strict 4th line C time we can make a better judgement. Hopefully he sticks around the 13 minute mark. If he starts threatening below 10 minutes, then I question the decision.

His ice time has already decreased even with the injuries. He was averaging close to 15 minutes through the first 5 games, but he has been averaging about 11.5 minutes a game since. Considering he can't buy a top 9 role with Briere and Schenn out I'm not sure why you would think it could get better when they are healthy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandals

it is relevant as he will need to be paid sooner rather than later. you dont take a kid with very good offensive skills and play him with players who do not. that is a waste.

the zubrus comparison is a relevant on a smaller scale as i said. zubrus still hasnt found his offensive game and never will. playing him on the 4th line will stunt his offensive growth.please explain to me how it will not. last i checked zubrus made the team out of camp which is even more impressive considering the league he came from, so i guess that is all that matters. I guess i will need to get a life because burning a year off his contract is a concern. if you say say cupcake.

I wish NHL.com had TOI from Zubrus' rookie season because I'm curious to know how much PP time he received. The fact that Lavi isn't trying to develop Couturier's offensive game at all is what concerns me. When is the last time an offensively talented prospect was used in a strictly defensive role? Seguin was basically used in a 4th line role last season, but he also received some PP time. Carter was on the 4th line, but had ample PP time for a rookie.

His ice time has already decreased even with the injuries. He was averaging close to 15 minutes through the first 5 games, but he has been averaging about 11.5 minutes a game since. Considering he can't buy a top 9 role with Briere and Schenn out I'm not sure why you would think it could get better when they are healthy.

I didn't say it would get better. In fact, I said it was going to get worse. I said once everyone gets healthy, and he settles into whatever his role will be with a complete lineup, we will see where his numbers are at (and they should be lower then they are now).

Do you think an 18 year old can keep that up? Can you name another 18 yr old player who has come in to perform great penalty kill as a rookie for the entire season? I'm seriously, I don't know if there has been anyone.

I don't think the coaching staff is giving Couturier a role that is more than he can handle, no.

Can you name another 18-year-old who has been called the best defensive forward by his coach on an NHL team?

Couts didn't look out of place at all. Again he gets more responsibility and he rises to the occassion. Guy was a total steal at #8. I just feel bad that Pierre Maguire seems to have an unhealtht creepy man crush on him and will be stalking him throughout his career...

[QUOTE=Pantokrator;38710199][QUOTE=Damaged Goods;38706969]If the Flyers sign Couturier to a deal at 20 that "pays on potential" the logical assumption is that it also carries the same kind of risk premium as the JVR contract and has the same kind of potential back-end windfall for the Flyers. The way you're framing this still only looks at the deal from one side.

2014 isn't the only year that matters and there's no telling if the Briere expiration will be the decisive factor you are making it out to be. For the most part, we have no idea what could develop between now and then that changes the Flyers decision-making parameters down the line. It is possible that a less favorable dollar/term for the Flyers on Couturier's deal beyond 2014 could also have a negative impact on other resources. It's also possible that it won't matter that much either way. If the cap rises 5% every year, that's $10 M more space for the 2014-2015 season than exists now.

With such a cap, the Flyers would have ~$30 M to spend on additions and raises to the current salaries of Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Read, Simmonds, Voracek, Gustafsson and Meszaros combined to a roster that includes Pronger, Bryzgalov, JVR, Briere, Carle/Coburn and Talbot.

Here were my limits for 2014-2015 with a conservative 5% annual cap increase:

I never said it was. But I'm not going to try to mount a defense for future-crime. If the the Flyers fill some gaps with short contracts (1 or 2 years) and let some big fish expire, the space should be there when they need it for extensions beyond 2014.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

I understand how JVR contract's work. The point is they paid top dollar to get him locked up. I doubt a year is going to make a significant difference in his worth on the market.

Well you keep bringing up the JVR contract while neglecting to mention why both sides saw it as beneficial.

Couturier beat out all those Phantoms and he is playing his role tremendously. How is it a benefit to have Couturier play great shut-down defense and chip in some offense on the 4th line and boost the penalty kill? I think that is self-evident.[/QUOTE]

Do you think an 18 year old can keep that up? Can you name another 18 yr old player who has come in to perform great penalty kill as a rookie for the entire season? I'm seriously, I don't know if there has been anyone.

Being a defensive forward is probably the hardest assignment in hockey. When you look at the role they provide, much more responsibility is placed on their shoulders than anyone else on the team. That's what makes this all the more impressive. I'm willing to bet that by mid-season, Couturier is averaging 15 to 17 minutes a night of ice time and no one will be complaining then whether or not it's a good idea to have him up.

I would argue the complete opposite actually. Everyone on the team is important at the NHL level, because if your team is completely ass in one phase of the game the opposition will exploit that. However if I were to rank them...

In order of responsibility (i.e. if that person does their job poorly it hurts the teams chances of winning):