Memo to Moms: There Is No Such Thing As a Gun-Free Zone

Those whacky Moms Demanding Action for Gun Sense in America (or the complete opposite thereof). They’re running a #offtarget campaign to bully Target into banning firearms in their stores. To that end, members are posting pics to prove they didn’t spend their money at Target. Is it me or are the action-demanding Moms telling Target to f#ck off? Anyway, as well-intentioned as their efforts may be, they’re deeply and completely misguided. Their demand – that Target become a “gun-free” zone like Costco – would leave customers defenseless against armed predators. Two things about that. First there is no such thing as a “gun-free” zone . . .

Authorities in Florida charged two prison inmates on Tuesday with shooting themselves with a smuggled pistol in a foiled scheme to sue the state for their injuries in hopes of reducing their sentences.

Need I say any more? If [as wtaq.com reports] a prison can’t be a gun-free zone, what facility can? Answer: none. And that means that banning firearms from Target is nothing more than one-sided disarmament. The wrong side. As a quick search of “target armed robbery” reveals. Here’s one from April [via philadelphia.cbs.local.com]:

Police have released surveillance video of three suspects wanted in connection with the brazen robbery of a Target in Northeast Philadelphia this past weekend.

The armed suspects made off with as much as $30,000 in cash.

The incident happened at about 10:30 p.m. Saturday at the Target located at 11000 Roosevelt Boulevard.

Officers responded to the robbery at Target around 6:58 p.m., but the suspect had fled the area in a red Honda CRV.

A short time later, the CRV was spotted on Eastchester Drive and a traffic stop was conducted.

As Moore was taken into custody, officers noticed a possible explosive device in the vehicle and the area was cleared and traffic re-routed.

Armed robbers have attacked Targets in New Jersey, Minnesota,Georgia and California (to name a few). The last link takes you to a story about an armed robbery in a Target parking lot. Speaking of parking lots, click here for a story about a woman kidnapped from a Florida Target parking lot, raped and held captive there for three hours.

Not that she was lucky – the victim managed to break free – but she lucked out. Remember the Kelsey Smith murder case? Wikipedia:

Surveillance video from Target showed Smith purchasing a present for her boyfriend to celebrate six months together. She then left the store before she disappeared. Approximately two hours later, her car was found abandoned outside of Macy’s in Oak Park Mall’s parking lot across the street. Her purse and wallet were left in the car.

Target stores use a large number of video cameras, and these can often be enhanced internally through their Target Forensic Services division. [ED: Yes, Target has their own crime lab.] There was strong evidence that Smith had been abducted; surveillance video from Target appeared to show someone forcing Smith into her car. Target video evidence identified a suspicious 1970s-era Chevrolet truck.

There’s more. Lots more. From all over the country. None of it good. All of it indicating that any sensible American would take sensible precautions when entering, shopping at and leaving a Target. Such as carrying a firearm for personal protection. Especially if you’re a woman.

Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America would disarm law-abiding Americans who frequent Target to prevent what? Negligent discharges? Armed customers run amok? The discomfort that some non-armed Americans feel when they see openly carried firearms, or even suspect that fellow shoppers are exercising their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms?

Yeah that. Oh and if you Google “costco armed robbery” or “rape costco parking lot” what do you think you’ll find? I wonder if Shannon Watts or any of her anti-gun acolytes have ever done that search . . .

145 Responses to Memo to Moms: There Is No Such Thing As a Gun-Free Zone

Where I’m from, the only form that matters is the posting. If it is not there, then it is not prohibited. Who cares what their membership agreements says. Someone please provide these moms the action they seek so they can leave the rest of us alone.

I prefer not to think of it as “anti-2A”, but “so the ignorant people don’t freak-out and start a riot”. Remember, not everyone who doesn’t want open carry in their businesses is against citizens having or carry guns. Some do it so their less intelligent customers don’t start having fits about something that’s otherwise perfectly legal.

Membership agreements are not binding when they conflict with relevant state and federal law. Not to mentions that they are clearly non-binding to non-signatories. (Such as any family members you give your cards to.)

In any case state/federal law in states that allow you to bear arms rarely prohibits private businesses from saying “no guns,” –it merely doesn’t forbid guns–so the membership agreement is not in conflict with the law.

I wasn’t aware either and thought it was all good since I checked for signs there upon “earning” my CCP. According the link above, “No Firearms” is their universal policy that you agree to abide by when you become a member. Fortunately (or not), I’ve never been a follower of silly rules…

Well, seeing as how I was not aware of that policy until reading this article, all of two hours ago, I guess my answer would be “yes.” I’ll make sure to let you know what decision my wife and I reach… unless you’d like to be included via conference call. 🙂

Seriously, though, I will be strongly considering dropping my membership. Does anyone know of a database that lists 2A friendly companies?

Just got off the hook with Costco. A gal told me guns were not allowed in the store. I asked if that also included legal concealed carry. She didn’t know, and hooked me up with a manager in the administrative section.
He said there was a policy in effect that no guns were allowed in the store, BUT, that if I was carrying concealed, no one would know! I said they would if I ever had to use it in your store, and then I would probably loose my permit. I asked if they had the required signs at the entrances, stating that no firearms were allowed. He said they didn’t!
I can’t afford to ask a lawyer if that’s legal??

@Gunr: Depending on your state, it would be highly unlikely that you would “lose your permit.” Costco is private property so they can prohibit firearms in their membership rules and can revoke membership if a member is caught with a gun. I would assume that in order to get into legal trouble, a sign would have to be in place and that sign would have to have force of law. In Ohio, even the sign would only really matter if they asked you to leave prior. Even then they could ask you to leave at anytime for any reason (except for one of the protected classes as reasoning) without a sign or a policy against firearms.

I wonder if anyone is calling about that MOM violating Costco’s “no photography without prior permission, including social media photography.” It might be petty but I’d get a chuckle if she got her Costco membership revoked over that pic.

While it might be in their membership agreement, as SteveInCO has posted, Costco took down their A.R.S. 4-229 signs at their locations in AZ about 18 months – 2 years ago. It seems they are trying to play both sides of the field with their membership agreement, but no sign. I have seen OC’ers in my local Costco, so enforcement seems like something akin to the Starbucks policy.

Which means that it is not illegal to carry, but it is a breach of the membership agreement, and your account will be cancelled if you are caught and the manager decides to make an issue of it.

Remember that incident in Vegas where there was a Costco member shopping (and acting a bit weird)? His shirt rode up over his gun, and he was spotted. Costco called the police, the police evacuated the store, and gunned down the man when he exited.

You only know about Target’s problems because Target disclosed after the fact. How many more have been targets of such cyber-crimes and just kept silent, KNOWING the potential damage, but not wanting to lose/scare customers? My guess is many more than you think.

I always carry in Costco. And anywhere else not barred by statute that doesn’t have a metal detector. For all its faults, in Colorado all they can do is ask you to leave. If you don’t, you can be cited for trespassing. BFD.

As many people have pointed out, you can conceal and get away with it, most of the time; also many times local managers won’t enforce the rule even when it’s blatantly violated. But why give an anti-gun corporation any of your money?

even if target were to officially go with a “no moar gunz allowed” policy i would still have my glock 26 in my pocket when i go there. The only way anyone at Target is ever going to know i have it is if the unlikely situation arises that i need it, at which point the consequences for violating their store policy will be the least of my concerns.

Wal-Mart does more business and is larger than their 5 next biggest competitors. Somewhere in that top 5? Target.

Target would like nothing better than to beat Wal-Mart, even though they are nowhere near the size. They are seen by many as the nicer, cleaner, friendlier, and only slightly more expensive alternative to Wal-Mart.

Yet Wal-Mart honors local gun laws. Most places that have a Target of any kind have at least one or more Wal-Marts close by that consumers could easily switch to. This is not like boycotting Starbucks where they have driven most of their serious competitors from the market. Target HAS to compete with Wal-Mart and ticking off a large swathe of their customer base will easily net Wal-Mart more business. MDA is not a large organization, though they are loud while I’m sure Target is aware of how badly gun control has performed in the political spectrum.

With their horrible data breach, I don’t think Target can afford to drive any more business to their competitors and they are not a company with built-in left leaning politics like Starbucks and Chipotle

Walmart is almost 100% overpriced Chicom crapola. But they are located everywhere. THeir crapola is seldom less expensive if you shop around. But have it all in one place.

Target definitely upscale compared to Walmart but jammed with idiot suburban yuppie chicks and full of soft/fluffy crapola. But as they are apparently neutral or pro gun will have to increase their rating on internal regardometer. But where is their firearms section.

Talked to the manager at the local “Floormart” (don’t ask if you can’t figure it out) He said they honer all State and local gun laws, and that concealed permit holders would have no problem with carry in the store.

I wonder if Costco bans photos and videos in the store. I’m trying to find out but no success yet. If they do then that is proof right there for the MOMs that rules don’t stop those who choose to violate them. 😉

Also, a way to bypass membership requirements is to purchase a Costco gift/cash card. One can use it to shop at Costco without having a membership. There was some issue with this but Costco issued a memo declaring that non-members can enter the store and use the cards.

1) It would be impossible to stop individuals from bringing cameras into the “warehouse” and possibly using them.
2) Costco requires prior permission for anyone, including those on social media taking photos or videos in their “warehouses”.
3) They can’t find any link or PDF for specific membership rules.

So, there you have it. They admit that it would be impossible to stop an individual from bringing something into the store (#1) and that the MOM in the photograph was required to get prior permission from Costco (#2).

It’s really funny in a way because I simply called as a previous member considering a membership again. When she couldn’t direct me to the actual membership rules and policy document(s) (she could only point to the website’s general statement) after many times on hold, I told her it was because I was concerned about things like People of Walmart and photography in the store. After being on hold yet again while she queried the powers that be, she informed me of #1. When I asked her, “Then taking photographs and videos inside Costco is not prohibited? There’s no policy against it?” She then told me that she was specifically told that Costco does not allow anyone, even those posting on social media, to take photographs or videos without express prior permission.

So, it’s not like I called as a firearm owner asking about firearm policies. I never mentioned the MOM photo or anything political. I simply wanted to look at the full version of the member rules and regulations. When that was not available, I decided to let them make the argument for us by the photography example and they did.

Funny. I need to drive back down to Anchorage and check, and grab a pic for proof, but I recall seeing a “guns and sportsmen welcome” sign in the Costco growing up.
I know that Sams’ Club in Fairbanks has a posted legal concealed carry allowed sign- or did about 6mo ago when I got a membership there.

Sorry but I was responding to what looked like people who were asking over and over again, “Is this really true?” I was under the impression they hadn’t read the prior comments. Sorry if my having the patience to answer the same question over and over again aggravated you.

Dear desperate emotional mommies, I’m positive that at least one of you is trolling this so I’m confident that this message will get through.
I buy my groceries at Target weekly while carrying a concealed pistol. Even if you somehow manage to bully Target into asking that firearms not be brought into their stores, (not likely) I will continue to do as I’ve always done and be prepared to defend myself and my family if faced with a lunatic that wishes us harm. You are not going to take away my rights and not going to intimidate the millions of Americans that are getting tired of your stunts and will not give up our protected rights. I have carried concealed into some of the other establishments after your bully campaign resulted in them asking patrons to not carry in their stores, and I will continue to do so.
Let me ask you this. How many victims ready to be slaughtered must you create before you will be happy? How many average everyday Americans do you want to turn into criminals before you will be happy? Can you sleep at night knowing that you have taken away a woman’s ability to defend herself from a rapist or a murderer? I wish that you would seriously stop your emotional and misguided crusades for a moment and consider exactly what the unintended consequences would be if you got your way.

The Moms Demand Action types know that they can’t do anything about the real problems of the world. So they express their angst as mob hatred toward people who carry guns legally and peacefully–a convenient, easy, safe scapegoat. Misdirected anger is inappropriate, but it’s human nature.

It may be in Costco’s member agreement, but they don’t really enforce it. People open carry (and probably concealed carry) in Costco all the time here in WA and nobody cares. But then MDA never has lived in reality.

So, do we have an attorney in this blog that can really answer this question. After signing an agreement to not carry any firearms in the store, a customer has to use his concealed weapon for a legal shoot. Just what charges if any, can be brought against him, and is there a possibility that said customer can loose his permit?
If it matters, I live in Oregon.

I’ve open carried (with a retention holster) at costco multiple times never had a problem. Other then one guy coming up to me and telling me my gun was showing. Muttered the words “stupid” under his breath after I explained I was open carrying.

If they didn’t delete every comment they didn’t like someone should ask them if they have to walk through a metal detector or TSA style Porn-o-portal to go in to a Target? Or if they realize that a No Guns sign is only a suggestion? “Target” is what the company is making of it’s customers and what they are making of themselves.

+1 Dirk. I used to shop at Target( food mostly) but had a very hard time using a gift certificate last year. They made Wal-Mart look up scale. Never again- so I guess being anti carry won’t matter LOL. Customer service matters too

I go to target all the time. If I can’t carry in there I can do what mom’s are doing also – go somewhere else.

Note to Target: You can’t please everyone so why bother changing policy. Mom’s demand action is a very small group compared to say… the NRA. Take a good look and see the business differential lost/gain. Maybe they should leave it up to the managers in those particular areas. For example:

Chicago area Target– customers, managers, and employee’s unknowingly want to be targets of a mass shooting and feel safe that a no guns allowed sign on the front door is a excellent deterrent.

Houston area Target – customers, managers, and employee’s recognize that if someone is going to bring a gun through the door with ill intent a sign that says no guns allowed is going to accomplish nothing at all.

These stunts by the Hysterical Mothers demonstrate how little influence they have on public opinion. If they had the numbers, that is widespread public support, companies like Target would act to protect their bottom line. Even with a sympathetic and supportive media that turns six Hysterical Mothers into a crowd of hundreds, they lack the ability to exert pressure.

Whether their demands make sense is of marginal relevance, the issue is whether they will succeed. We may need to think of ways to respond more forcefully if the chains keep succumbing to their demands. Their long-term game is the abolition of shall-issue carry, so the stakes are quite high.

That blonde in the pic at Costco, the one with the Costco shopping cart in tow?
Yeah, that one with the cocky attitude like she has the answers to all of today’s domestic policy problems just because she aligned herself with a political prostitute like Shannon Watts.

Feeling totally trapped in a dull marriage, she has no doubt further emasculated her rat-race exhausted spouse into a state of submission. “Anything you say honey.” The poor slob probably isn’t even allowed to have a staple gun on his tool bench in the garage.

As for all these misguided mammory-laden societal misfits, this is more a case of the breakdown of marital relationships and the frustration being heaped on them by successive globalist administrations intentionally bent on fracturing our social bonds and sense of self worth. But try as one might to connect with these intellectually challenged broom-toting Brown graduate bimbos and get them to grasp the larger picture, words go in one ear and out the other. No one is home and the lights are out. They are all the victims of their own emotions.

I was listening today to a program supporting the continued hunting of Black Bears. The Black Bear population has grown considerably in a number of states resulting in a large number of bear assaults on humans and property. Well, as it relates to the MDA nonsense, it seems that the liberals who were all voting against hunting bear admittedly were ill-informed about the necessary details yet still decided to vote as they did because “it just felt like the right thing to do”.

And here is where the modern-day self-professed liberals don’t deserve to even participate in a democracy. They are so busy polishing their Priuses and Volvos, ordering their half-caf lattes, and boning up on the new inflections of communicating with a metrosexual lisp, that they totally miss the boat on facts and data regarding ANY meaningful discussion. Whether it’s dealing with escalating bear populations or guns, these people are OUT TO LUNCH, yet like a spoiled child, stubbornly demand to be heard. After listening to them yammer incessantly, it’s no wonder how rational people cave in just to get these self-destructive morons to shut the hell up. What they really need is to be sent to their rooms with no dinner.

Yep, I just saw the picture and as the picture really came to focus,
The meaning that came to me ( Ironically before reading the text) was “F off Target” I had to laugh when I then read the first paragraph.

What I am curious about, How many people would say, Gosh, I am mad at Target, I’ll go to their competition (???) “Costco!!” instead, for that box of “band aids”
( of course I’ll have a case of 1 million band aids, instead of 25. But Hey, I’m sticking it to Target!!!

I am also Amazed that business (people) think a legally carrying persons firearm is more of a hazard or risk to the community while being secured in the gun owners control ( on their body), as compared to the chance of theft (of the firearm). while stowed out in a car.

Where possible patronize “friendly” establishments. But, until a business puts in Metal detectors or does body search “pat downs” …If one has a concealed carry permit, then keep it concealed. What they don’t know……… They don’t know!. For those that only “open carry” well pick “friendly” places.

The part I find especially funny is that Costco may not want you to carry your heater into their store, but they are sure happy to sell you a gun safe. Hell, even the pictures of their safes have guns in them so you won’t be confused in what you are buying.

I just don’t see the elderly man checking receipts at the door protecting me in the parking lot of Costco.
Aw hell, I don’t even go there because it’s too far away and I don’t need humongous sizes of everyday things.

Some things do come in mega sizes at Costco, like 25 and 50lb. bags of flour or rice. However, most things come in normal grocery store sizes and even the mega size usually also have normal size counterparts. The old “pallet of peanut butter” or 55 gallon drums of vegetable oil notions are holdovers from long ago when these store truly were warehouse quantity oriented, and don’t reflect the stores today.

I think Moms should be encouraged to stick with their “GunFree Zone” thing.

As a matter of fact, they should be encouraged to search google images for “attention criminals gun free zone signs”, and further encouraged to print some of the signs and place them on their home and office doors, and on their car bumpers.

Maybe the next time they have a physical protest somewhere, someone could show up with those gun free zone signs with ‘Approved by Moms Demand Action’ on the bottom.

I stopped going to Costco after one visit to their store. I walked in one afternoon, open carrying as I often do, and I immediately noticed I was being shadowed by an employee. I stopped and asked if I could help him with something. He introduced himself as a member of management and asked if I was a LEO. I informed him I was not, but I was legally permitted to carry. He informed me of the no firearms policy and politely asked me if I would mind to leave my firearm in my vehicle. I politely responded that I would rather take my business elsewhere. Fast forward to a little over a year later, when I received a call from a member of the staff informing me that my membership had expired and asking if I would like to renew it on the phone. I politely recounted my story to the young lady on the line and told her I would prefer to give my business to a company that didn’t restrict my rights. She was absolutely flabbergasted that I was so adamant about being able to carry my firearm. I thanked her for the reminder and told her to have a nice day. I do not patronize establishments that think they can make decisions for me. Period.

I’m pretty sure that they, as private property owners, are only making decisions for themselves and their property. They’re concerned about the liability if you do something on their property later determined to have been reckless. It’s nothing personal or political, just business. The current state of the legal system stacks up the incentives toward prohibiting firearms.

John, in this case, everyone is acting completely within their rights. Costco has every right to ask to you leave your gun in the car and you have every right to take you business somewhere else. In fact, your taking the high road in leaving and in dropping your membership will do more to change their policy than any amount of whining.

No the flip side I’m curious about is the reason for their policy. Is it a matter of liability? Or maintaining a liquor license? For me, at least, it could make a difference in my decision on whether to do business there.

John in TN–I believe this is precisely the correct attitude. Though it’s certainly true (as pointed out by Jonathan-Houston) that these sorts of policies usually are not a reflection of the place being owned by a slavering hoplophobe, there’s no reason to simply give the business a pass for what they are doing.

(I don’t subscribe to the notion, for instance, that OCT has “flushed out” closet hoplophobe businesses in getting Starbucks/Chipotle/et. al. to issue their “please leave your guns at home” requests; I think rather these businesses are just shy about the bad publicity, and fear lawsuits should an “incident” take place after MDA called their attention to what was going on–In other words its corporate CYA not a genuine corporate anti-gun attitude.)

Costco has had this policy for a long time. They’ve been doing it very quietly (they don’t post), but they were like this before MDA even existed. I can’t prove it, but I think they genuinely are anti-gun, and don’t post as a form of CYA with us. But in the end their intent doesn’t matter, it’s the result that does.

I’ve seen an awful lot of people respond to these sorts of things with “Well they can’t throw me out if I am concealing and they don’t notice.” Though it is a useful thing to be willing to defy stupid rules; in this case the store doesn’t know you are defying them and is feeling absolutely no pain as a result of their decision. People who take this attitude are not accomplishing anything except giving themselves a warm feeling over having done something. Odd, but isn’t this the sort of pointless posturing that conservatives (in general) accuse liberals of engaging in? (I doubt that all of the “well I am gonna carry anyway” people are from our liberal-but-gun-bearing contingent.)

No, businesses need to be told in no uncertain terms that their policy, even if it’s just a CYA thing, is costing them business. If they can do a CYA and not feel any consequence of it, then they will be convinced they did the right thing–hey we are now safer and it didn’t cost us anything!

The one minor mistake you made (and I am NOT criticizing you–it was an error of ignorance–I am pointing this out for others who may be reading) is that you could have demanded your membership money back that first day; supposedly they have some sort of satisfaction guarantee. (I personally became aware of their anti-gunniness about a week before my membership expired, and just let it run–some people tell me I could have got the whole thing back even that late.)

To me there is no gun free zones, just zones where people “comply” with local ordanances. As for me, I choose to break the law, I will not let others tell me where I can defend myself so all the M.D.A. ( sounds like a prohibited drug ) is doing is making law abiding citizens criminals.. If the criminals arent going to follow the laws and put me in danger than im not going to follow the law so I can have a possibility at not becoming a statistic.

I was thinking about the Kelsey Smith case the whole time I was reading this. Kelsey went to my high school and was a few years older than me. Talk about a wounded community, the whole place is still torn apart by it. Our old high school still gives out rape whistles every year and trots her dad out to talk about safety in public. I wish Kelsey had had a gun.

Free market, commercialism, big business, capitalism etc. Vs. the constitution. We, the United States of America, have created a monster of a system that we allow to control our lives just because we are naive to think the constitution matters. It exists but when everything boils down to liability and money…. Who controls who? I can’t believe how blind people can be. In the end we are nowhere near as “free” as we think we are. It’s an illusion/delusion that keeps the overall engine running. Nothing more. Being “American Proud” is another feed line into the propaganda that this country has become. In the end it doesn’t matter who you give your money to for food, amenities, and such. Still feeds the system of control.

Costco does NOT have a gun free zone!! In fact, I open carried in a Costco and welcomed with open arms!! You see, I work for an armored truck company and was delivering a significant amount of cash in various denominations as well as box coin. When it comes to their own cash, gun control doesn’t exist. The same thing applies to ATM machines, schools, hospitals, and even personal jewelry and bullion. If you think Sarah Brady transports large cash contributions to the bank while possessing only a mace can or taser, I’m 99% certain that she does not. No doubt she is armed or hires armed personal or an armored company to do it for her.

If you are REALLY in favor of gun control, disarm millionaires and big businesses first!! Its twisted and evil to fight for an ATM machine or a cash register harder than it is to defend one’s family, friends, strangers, school children or even yourself. People are worth fighting for, far more then green pieces of paper and round metallic objects.

FWIW, if anyone cares, I have open carried in a few BJ’s Warehouses in Delaware (the chain is mostly east coast + a few stores in Ohio) and never had any issues. I have heard other reports that they’re generally 2A-friendly.

The fact MDA naively and stupidly believes that putting up signs and policies indicating some area is “Gun Free” because “We said so.” attests to their incredible lunacy. Maybe they should try to establish “criminal free zones”, but that wouldn’t serve Bloomberg’s long-term agenda because he has no interest in reducing crime, only in making himself feel taller by taking away others’ freedom of choice and natural rights.

Your missing the point of MDA. It is not – nor has it ever been – about actual wins. It’s entirely PR. Sell the perception, sell the idea. That connects to the fine line that TTAG has to walk even reporting on them. Their message has to be marginalized on the one hand and the organization show as the wing-nuts they are. However, RF, et. al., have to be care to avoid giving Shannon & co. a false legitimacy.

Raul, you have missed some of my previous posts about MDA. No matter. I get the point it is all about propaganda and selling the perception and have said so consistently for many months. But thanks for making that point again because it is the only really valid point with regard to MDA. Insofar as Bloomberg is concerned he wants to disarm us to satisfy his thirst to control everyone else.

I didn’t know about that until after I quit over the gun ban, but I did meet his father–who wrote a novel taking off from the incident. It’s a bit unusual for “gunnie” fiction because the federal government is actually the good guys, but a very good read nonetheless.

I live in Georgia! I carry my CCW wherever I go. I don’t give a sh#t about some sign because first of all they have to catch you carrying and the biggest thing they can do is ask you to leave!. So I hope all you MDA idiots realize I’m standing in the same checkout line as you with a loaded weapon concealed on me because I don’t give a crap what’s taped to the front door of the store.