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Respectful Insolence is a repository for the ramblings of the aforementioned pseudonymous surgeon/scientist concerning medicine and quackery, science and pseudoscience, history and pseudohistory, politics, and anything else that interests him (or pushes his buttons). Orac's motto: "A statement of fact cannot be insolent." (OK, maybe it can be just a little bit insolent.)

Illogical

I'm probably going to end up regretting posting this, but the above picture irritated me.

No, it didn't irritate me because the woman is demonstrating in support of abortion rights. Rather, the photo offended my sense of skepticism and critical thinking. It shouldn't matter what one's position is in the abortion debate to see that, on a logical basis alone, the above body painting, seen at one of the many marches on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade yesterday, is pretty illogical and indeed borders on downright idiotic.

Think about it a second.

If a fetus could think and have an opinion on abortion, is it logical or even reasonable to think that it would support a position that might potentially result in its own destruction? That seems to be the implication of the body painted message above.

Just a thought.

Orac has now had himself placed in a special asbestos case. At least he wasn't as snarky about this photo as Dave was, although he was definitely tempted.

What annoys me about the photo is that its illogicality even needs to be pointed out.

Mother: My baby is prochoice.Skeptic: How do you know?Mother: Wha?Skeptic: Have you asked you unborn baby about their politics vis-a-vis abortion ethics?Mother: Eh? Um. I don't need to. I know what my baby wants.Skeptic: How?Mother: Eh?Skeptic: Ignoring for the moment that your offspring has no opinions of any kind yet, by what methods are you able to ascertain the nature of their thoughts and desires?(Long pause)Mother: My baby is prochoice.

It is illogical, but I like the idea of showing that she, as a pregnant woman, is pro-choice. She just chose the wrong individual by saying the baby is pro-choice. I hate all those bumper-stickers saying "your mom was pro-life" or whatever, 'cause, y'know, all us evil women who are pro-choice go around not only aborting our own babies but also encouraging others to abort theirs. [big eye-roll]. Maybe she could have taken a slogan from Madonna: "Pro-choice and keepin' my baby."

The underlying irony of imposing the moral/political position of pro-choice on another person (ie. señor fetus, assuming señor fetus is person enough to have political/moral positions) makes my head swim.

The human capacity for doublethink continues to boggle my mind.

PS. <sarcasm>I'm sure this clue to her dominating view of how much control over her child's opinions she assumes she will have guarantees she'll make a fine mother.<\sarcasm>

Maybe she could have her foetus interviewed by Barbara Walters or Larry King or something. After hearing its views on abortion, I'd be delighted to know what her foetus thinks about fiscal responsibility, the death penalty, the Isreali-Paletinian conflict, the war in Iraq, violence on TV, etc. Forget that crappy Baby Bob fad. This is truly amazing.

Opinionated Foetus Fever: Catch It!

On the other hand, perhaps we should fear a being who is already mentally-developed enough to form a socio-political opinion while still in the womb. By the time he or she is an adult, it's probably gonna be like one of those all-powerful aliens on Star Trek, telekinesy and all! At the very least, it'll be Khan Noonian Singh.

"If a fetus could think and have an opinion on abortion, is it logical or even reasonable to think that it would support a position that might potentially result in its own destruction?"

Maybe. If I knew that I was going to die tonight and could chose whether I would be reincarnated as the child of a fundamentalist or simply be dead, my last act would be to send my prospective mother some RU-486. This would go doubly if she were a fundamentalist who didn't want to have a baby just then. There are things worse than being dead, albeit not many.

That having been said, I agree with you that the position stated is illogical. The fetus simply doesn't have the neural equipment to have an opinion yet. On the other hand, there is a high probability that it will be pro-choice during the period in which it is old enough to have an opinion but too young to have rebelled totally from its parents. After that, who knows?

Did someone say this already. If her baby is a baby you can't take it's life even if you are pro-choice. If it's a fetus and is so intelligent as to have an opinion you can't end it's life.

Part of the point of it being OK to abort even an older fetus like she has in her (or end a baby's life, from another viewpoint) is that it doesn't know enough to understand what's going on... isn't it?

Mom knows more so she gets to choose? Dad might know more, but he doesn't get a vote.

Orac is but a humble pseudonymous surgeon/scientist with an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his miscellaneous verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few will. That Orac has chosen his pseudonym based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights from an old British SF show whose special effects were renowned for their early 1980's BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction for television ever produced, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.) Orac tries to keep his insolence respectful, but admittedly sometimes fails in the cases of obvious quackery and pseudoscience, attacks on him, very poor critical thinking skills, bigotry, and just general plain stupidity.