I have problem with builds posted here. Playing with red fog on LegendaryI m dealing so low damage with normal builds. Encountered in April Bersereker, 2x Muton Centurion and 3x MEC, Shielbearer. Almost lost all best soldiers because Rapid Deployment do not help clearing this kind of pod.Picking any de-buffing perks make pod of 6x Sectoid or 6x Viper your last pod with that squad. Little red fog is not enough.Any enemy with high dodge must get grenade. 120 Aim can miss some enemies on legendary.

One useful build must have all grenade damage perks. Stat are not important but more mobility is good. This builds are for or before May. No Heavy Armor ( I really doubt that you can afford even one)SapperHeavy Ordinance Boosted Cores HEAT Warheads or Tandem Warheads ( I need both)Biggest BoomsVolatile MixCombat Engineer or Full Kit . (full kit for dedicated Supply Raider and they (both) need support of Airdrop Specialist)This build will clear any pod on Veteran / Commander. So you can remove some damage perks.

Rapid deployment - for Stealth Missions only they just are not good enough for any fight that last more than one turn. But they excel in free de-buffing move. High aim + don't send them in real fight unless you plan to shoot at every pod (Extr. or Very Light Missions). Grenade with them is just a scratch but they can keep multiple pods under control for one turn. They can't kill even Drone.This build is superior on Veteran / Commander. Add some damage perks and Support side perks -Sting Grenades and Salvo on Legendary ( they need to throw two grenades on Legendary)

Now I m starting to respec my all high aim Grenadiers to actually do some damage in critical moment.

About MEC - clear the escort and apply shred with grenade. Boomer can do that. Forget about loot - dead soldiers can't equip any . Bring some heavy hitters (Gunners) with shred and Technical with shred. Everything must have shred and AP.

The RD builds are better when the enemy numbers are higher and you need to disable a part of a pod while you kill a part of it during the first turn. They're not that great otherwise until you give them incendiaries or they reach Sting Grenades. They can still be useful tho, if the rest of the squad is geared towards tactics that don't benefit that much from the cover removal:

Just one Heavy (April) in March they are much easier . Nice lesson for me but you can win even without Specialist. Double Area Suppression can make wonders.

Noticed that Boosted Cores and Tandem Warheads works until late May but I m getting too much minor red fog. Plasma Grenade will correct that. Incendiary Grenade eats turns and Advent will always disperse (I can't shootout with Advent with underpants and BB gun ). I will double production of Gunners - they rock trough whole game. Right now my Grenadiers are shooting and I m replacing them with Technical. Wasted around 5-6 good aim-ers on them . Why they don't have any shot perks ? Center Mass is just for March and Chain Shot is miss for sure with them.

So best Grenadiers are double Gunners on mission backed by two Sharpshooters . You can win impossible and save Grenades for later . They have best debuff - kill. Will try triple Suppression on next "impossible to win" mission with 2x Suppressor build Gunners and one Sniper Gunner

I used to try and make grenadier officers if I got a high aim one. With centre mass, chain shot and hybrid perks. It just didn't work that well. If you get one with decent aim AND quick study you could do pistol perks, centre mass and still have a sting grenade and a dense smoke with RD. I guess.

I tried sapper grenadiers the last couple of campaigns. I thought I should like it because I like shooty rangers. But I find there is too much cover that sapper can't break reliably (even centred). And grenades don't do enough damage to be good after the first 2 months, the damage boost perks come too late, and plasma is also too late. So for a substantial period I'd rather have flashbangs than grenades. Might be different with lower enemy HP on lower difficulties.

Re gunners, yes I prefer them for the control role on big missions for their staying power. But suppression isn't that strong a debuff: small aim penalty and can be broken if the enemy doesn't mind being shot. So on smaller missions I prefer an RD grenadier (also higher movement with smg).

Debuff is not important. Suppressed Advent can't use abilities and this is real control. Suppressing 3x MEC on Legendary will prevent micro missile and you will probably kill escort.

Agree on Grenadier "too late perks" but they can still "open" the pod.Both Rapid deployment and Sapper are situational . Dense Smoke is needed on just two. Bluescreen Bombs are not needed with Gremlin Mk II and Improved skulljack.Biggest Booms vs Sting Grenades - Plasma grenade + Biggest Booms can deal with M2 Advent (RND dmg). Same goes for Sting Grenades (50% RND ). 9 HP Advanced Trooper with 70 Aim should be in range only if you have plenty of supply to actually buy some. M3 starting with 14 HP (and +3 HP from Dark Events ) will get quite red fog only if you are lucky.

Mmm yeah, relying solely on a single layer of suppression to keep a group of MECs under control is just asking for punishment. Double suppression would make it 93.75% chance to prevent running and an extra source of buff/debuff to further skew the Aim calculations would be when you can start to feel confident. A properly "controlled" MEC outright gives up and does nothing on its turn because it won't run, its abilities (including OW) are switched off and it can't shoot at >0%.

Now, that means a lot of your squad members are tied up in controlling MECs - you'll need to then solve "who is left to DPS?"

Technical if they stay in group for bad aim rocket.No easy solution here if you don't have high level Sniper for killing Shieldbearer. Hacking one MEC is best option to deal with Master pod but this is May stuff where you avoid to even encounter 3x MEC (super MEC-s), 3X Mutton (Centurion of worse), Shieldbearer and some powerful Advent.Uncontrolled Mutons can be real threat (they will prevent you from advancing). It is prolonged fight and whole pod should be covered, anything out of suppression zone must be killed. Sometimes your crit Ranger will use both barrels because there is no fighting retreat against them .

Scout Shinobi for tracking and two powerful Snipers will kill Shiledbearer from two dash position. It must be two dash position or you will have to advance to prevent micro missile spawn. Shinobi will track the pod. You will retreat for second dash or advance for double suppression. If they spot your squad you will get squad wipe. This is the tricky part. If they spend all of their action points they are easy target because you will weaken them in second dash and you will be ready to use all yours action points. This must be 8 man GOPs

I did one before Laser (without Specialists and I hit wrong button, my plan was boost ) and after that I m infiltrating to max pod size of six (Moderate, Light - Moderate) for 8 man GOPS. It is not worth doing because you must be really lucky to do it and not lose half of squad. Price is always squad wipe. Right now squad of 5 vs Light is risky because you will face 2x MEC (normal ones) 2x Mutton (centurions), Shieldbearer and suppression with one gunner is - good bye squad for month. Can't fine tune Supply raid and I had just one in May and putting 8 man on mission is luxury. Advent has stopped moving the Strength because they dropped UFOs on my full intel havens.March is best place for 8 man Supply raid you will get one Muton and that's it but your squad will have very low chance to do it flawless - so I was spending intel for some copses and for low strength region. If you detect it - off course (it is 3-4 days mission at best)

Psieye wrote:Mmm yeah, relying solely on a single layer of suppression to keep a group of MECs under control is just asking for punishment. Double suppression would make it 93.75% chance to prevent running and an extra source of buff/debuff to further skew the Aim calculations would be when you can start to feel confident. A properly "controlled" MEC outright gives up and does nothing on its turn because it won't run, its abilities (including OW) are switched off and it can't shoot at >0%.

Now, that means a lot of your squad members are tied up in controlling MECs - you'll need to then solve "who is left to DPS?"

Wait, does the aim de-buff stack for multiple suppressions?

While we're about it, do you know for sure what the aim de-buff actually is? I've seen people refer to different values.

gimrah wrote:Wait, does the aim de-buff stack for multiple suppressions?

While we're about it, do you know for sure what the aim de-buff actually is? I've seen people refer to different values.

I don't know the exact debuff amount - I assumed the tooltip was accurate and went with that in my mental calculations. I don't recall any glaring moments where I discovered the tooltip's number was wrong.

The Aim debuff from multi-suppresions shouldn't stack. What does 'stack' (from what I read on forums long ago) is the AI's decision roll on whether to run the suppression or not. Each suppression has a 25% chance of being ran and each OW has a 50% chance of being ran. I also got the impression the AI doesn't realise the Aim debuff wouldn't apply if it ran then shot - i.e. if the AI calculates it has 0% hit chance while suppressed and it can't flank the gunner after moving, it gives up on moving. I haven't read the .ini or code to confirm if that's what really happens.

When I said "an extra source of buff/debuff to further skew the Aim calculations" I meant a smoke, Aid Prot or some such on the gunner(s) to push down the Aim calculation to 0%.

Yeah I didn't mean that the AI is smart about moving but sometimes it does anyway. And if you single suppress 3 MECs there's a good chance one of them will move. Then it's a question of whether anything else has actions after that.

gimrah wrote:My grenadiers do damage in first monthwith regular grenades, mid game with incendiaries and sort of in very late game with EMP bombs.

...Yes they are mainly for GOps. I wouldn't take one on an HQ or GP mission, but I would on a supply raid or troop column. Especially if they get any shooty/OW perks in the AWC.

Are you saying you won't take a grenadier on an HQ/GP?

Say you have a pod of 8 troopers just standing around, and instead of dropping an incendiary or sting grenade on them, probably taking half, or more of them out of the fight immediately, you just start shooting? Or I guess a better question is how do you begin that engagement?

Personally, I want a grenadier on EVERY mission. Period. If it's a GP/HQ, then I want two... I just can't see how you would not. I don't care about Grenadiers shooting. I have Rangers/Assaults for that. They just need to sit in the back and drop bombs... If they get off a lucky shot, then great. I don't even give them vests until they get the extra grenade perks. Sometimes, not even then...

SpinDoctor wrote:Are you saying you won't take a grenadier on an HQ/GP?

Say you have a pod of 8 troopers just standing around, and instead of dropping an incendiary or sting grenade on them, probably taking half, or more of them out of the fight immediately, you just start shooting? Or I guess a better question is how do you begin that engagement?

Personally, I'd rather the grenadier take 16 enemies out of the fight for 3 turns with 1 smoke than CC half an 8-man pod for 1~2 turns.

SpinDoctor wrote:Are you saying you won't take a grenadier on an HQ/GP?

Say you have a pod of 8 troopers just standing around, and instead of dropping an incendiary or sting grenade on them, probably taking half, or more of them out of the fight immediately, you just start shooting? Or I guess a better question is how do you begin that engagement?

Personally, I'd rather the grenadier take 16 enemies out of the fight for 3 turns with 1 smoke than CC half an 8-man pod for 1~2 turns.

However you wanna do it. Depends on the situation. That's certainly a valid approach, but doesn't seem like something I'd need to do on a regular basis. Pretty much unavoidable in a big retaliation but I generally try not to get myself into situations where I have 16 enemies gunning for me. But I'd definitely pop some smoke in those "oh shit" moments. My point is, Grenadiers rule.

Psieye wrote:Personally, I'd rather the grenadier take 16 enemies out of the fight for 3 turns with 1 smoke than CC half an 8-man pod for 1~2 turns.

16 enemies gunning for me.

They're not shooting. When I say "out of the fight", I really do mean "not even shooting". Ok, there's some slight exaggeration there, but point is: those 16 enemies should have 0.0% chance of causing harm, be that spitting poison, mind spin or whatever else.

Psieye wrote:Personally, I'd rather the grenadier take 16 enemies out of the fight for 3 turns with 1 smoke than CC half an 8-man pod for 1~2 turns.

16 enemies gunning for me.

They're not shooting. When I say "out of the fight", I really do mean "not even shooting". Ok, there's some slight exaggeration there, but point is: those 16 enemies should have 0.0% chance of causing harm, be that spitting poison, mind spin or whatever else.

OK I'll bite... How you gonna do all that with just smoke? Maybe it has some properties I'm not aware of.

SpinDoctor wrote:OK I'll bite... How you gonna do all that with just smoke? Maybe it has some properties I'm not aware of.

I never said "just" smoke. That's the end of the grenadier's job - to lay down (dense) smoke. The 2 specialists then alternate to ensure the AI breaks down and stops being a threat.

It occurs to me it'd be better if I link the theory thread instead of the 3 Commander AAR threads I made.

I read the link, so now I get what you are talking about. "Interesting choice", as someone once put it. It shows a lot of creativity, and given your unique play-style, I can see the usefulness. Nothing wrong with that! However, for me, I'm probably not gonna do 0% Infs, so I don't want to create huge Alien encounters, then have to resort to tactics that basically breaks the AI to gain XP.

Having said that, it definitely might be worth using on a huge retaliation, if you can pull it off. I may give it a go to see how/if it really works. If you're only used to small/medium sized engagements and you somehow find yourself in a huge uncontrolled fight, it might be a good thing to be able to use. Of course, you need to gear up for it first...

Smoke is really good for when you are fighting lots of enemies over several turns in a relatively static fight (e.g. because n timer and/or lots more enemies in the fog). I always regret not having it on troop columns and the like.

It's less good than flashbang on a GOp when my squads rely on high mobility, and so aren't bunched up and don't stay in the smoke.

Smoke is very good on intel and recruit mini-retals. On that first turn especially, pods will run in from flanks and yellow alert shoot you. So smoking your squad on the first turn is often a good move. I also put a smoke on haven advisers for the same reason. Most of the rebels I lose on intel mini-retals are from yellow alert, so smoke turn one and that buys a little time. Smoke on a rendezvous can be good too (provided you don't leave faceless active to tun into it).

You have linked After Action Reports (AAR) read them and use them. If you play commander you can 50%-0% 3x regions with 24 man in March. In April you will be powerhouse. Only thing that can stop you is Super UFO spawn. Tower + full havens can detect them so you need to stop at Vigilance 8 to get more Jailbreaks. Just wait for LIB 3 to respawn - it is enough and you will get next set of missions and full Lib 3. You can even cancel missions by doing them . For loot. Jump in to mission and fail objective - clean up map and evac. This do not add Vigilance.Number of scientist that you can pick up will put Laser in March and you will dominate every mission if you can detect UFO-s.In mid April you will have around 18 Scientist and 6 region minimum. You will hit Severe so start to hunt UFO-s or Advent will fill your map with Strength. Tower + Scientist + 13 rebels is remedy for UFO detection

SonnyWiFiHr wrote:0% infiltration is bad description. It is about winning Heavy+ Missions. Usually everybody will try to skip them but you can't avoid them.Operation in 8+ Strength region is just that.

You have linked After Action Reports (AAR) read them and use them. If you play commander you can 50%-0% 3x regions with 24 man in March. In April you will be powerhouse. Only thing that can stop you is Super UFO spawn. Tower + full havens can detect them so you need to stop at Vigilance 8 to get more Jailbreaks. Just wait for LIB 3 to respawn - it is enough and you will get next set of missions and full Lib 3. You can even cancel missions by doing them . For loot. Jump in to mission and fail objective - clean up map and evac. This do not add Vigilance.Number of scientist that you can pick up will put Laser in March and you will dominate every mission if you can detect UFO-s.In mid April you will have around 18 Scientist and 6 region minimum. You will hit Severe so start to hunt UFO-s or Advent will fill your map with Strength. Tower + Scientist + 13 rebels is remedy for UFO detection

I simply see no reason to "game the game" like this. If you want to do it, that's fine. I don't play this way. What does it mean to "be a powerhouse in April"? I'm already beating the missions with a normal playstyle. I get Lasers in April, instead of March. I don't see the big deal. As far as managing strength, I don't make a big deal out of hunting UFOs either. You can't beat the game by wiping out strength, regardless. Concerning large fights, I'm all for that once in awhile, but I don't need a steady diet of them. They take a long time, and I don't have that kind of time to kill.

Now that you have me started, that whole "18 scientists and 6 regions in April" sounds fishy to me. How is that even possible? I have no idea how you will have enough opportunities to get 18 scientist in less than a month. You can't even run 18 missions in the first month. Having said all that, why do you need that many anyway? I don't know where you are getting these numbers, but I'm just not interested in studying a gamey playstyle.

Last edited by SpinDoctor on Wed May 09, 2018 5:05 pm, edited 6 times in total.

gimrah wrote:Smoke is really good for when you are fighting lots of enemies over several turns in a relatively static fight (e.g. because n timer and/or lots more enemies in the fog). I always regret not having it on troop columns and the like.

It's less good than flashbang on a GOp when my squads rely on high mobility, and so aren't bunched up and don't stay in the smoke.

Smoke is very good on intel and recruit mini-retals. On that first turn especially, pods will run in from flanks and yellow alert shoot you. So smoking your squad on the first turn is often a good move. I also put a smoke on haven advisers for the same reason. Most of the rebels I lose on intel mini-retals are from yellow alert, so smoke turn one and that buys a little time. Smoke on a rendezvous can be good too (provided you don't leave faceless active to tun into it).

Smoke is great! I just have to remember that I have it. I usually don't need it, (or maybe I do and don't realize it) but I got into a dicey supply raid situation, with my weakest squad which turned in to a pitched battle and it just happened that one of my guys had the "smoker" AWC perk, plus my Specialist had a smoke. So it probably saved some injuries.

I have also taken to popping smoke in the haven on the first turn of Intel retaliations, etc.

It is not fishy. It is standard start on CommanderThrow all of your 24 man in first three mission. Infiltrate to V. Light> Light > Light - Moderate. Liberation 1 is harder so put better troops here (Grenadier and Tech). Detect Second set of missions do it again and contact 2nd region. There will be pause in detection between March 12 and March 17 ( only Lib 3 will spawn) if you managed to beat 6 missions ahead of time (cooldown). At that time you should doing 3 missions in 2nd region.You can do mission in second region after March 11 (7 days or less for resistance coms + 4 days of scanning)Do that in all 3 regions then just expand again and catch VIP/Lib 2.You will lose less soldiers because nothing on map can handle 8 man Squad attack (Light is sweet spot). You will contact 2-3 regions per month and bad detection is just minor issue. You are also leveling up barracks - fast

There is no rule how much you must infiltrate and even tips from mod makers suggest - infiltrate as you like.

Play as you like.Did that by infiltrating 8 man up to 50% (3 or 4 days infiltration - Light) and once by doing 25%-30% infiltration. Finished 6 mission when I detected first missions in second region. But 25% is very hard to pull out if you hit Moderate.I did that because with 5 man squad I was losing one soldier per mission. 8 man solved that problem

SonnyWiFiHr wrote:It is not fishy. It is standard start on CommanderThrow all of your 24 man in first three mission. Infiltrate to V. Light> Light > Light - Moderate. Liberation 1 is harder so put better troops here (Grenadier and Tech). Detect Second set of missions do it again and contact 2nd region. There will be pause in detection between March 12 and March 17 ( only Lib 3 will spawn) if you managed to beat 6 missions ahead of time (cooldown). At that time you should doing 3 missions in 2nd region.You can do mission in second region after March 11 (7 days or less for resistance coms + 4 days of scanning)Do that in all 3 regions then just expand again and catch VIP/Lib 2.You will lose less soldiers because nothing on map can handle 8 man Squad attack (Light is sweet spot). You will contact 2-3 regions per month and bad detection is just minor issue. You are also leveling up barracks - fast

There is no rule how much you must infiltrate and even tips from mod makers suggest - infiltrate as you like.

Play as you like.Did that by infiltrating 8 man up to 50% (3 or 4 days infiltration - Light) and once by doing 25%-30% infiltration. Finished 6 mission when I detected first missions in second region. But 25% is very hard to pull out if you hit Moderate.I did that because with 5 man squad I was losing one soldier per mission. 8 man solved that problem