Okay I will address your points. "Magic beans are just like God." Dogma noted. Thanks.

Dogma? I think you might want to look up the definition of the word "dogma". It does not apply here.

Look, I know it sucks to be told your deeply held beliefs are as preposterous and silly as believing in magic beans. But they are. Don't get testy with me about it. I'm not the one who made you believe silly things. And don't try to make it sound like I'm the unreasonable one. I'm not. You are the one who thinks the omnipotent creator of all being:1. needed a breather after 6 days2. is concerned about some podunk's living situation3. cares enough about said podunk to rearrange reality to make everything turn out good for her...4. ...despite not lifting a finger for people who are enduring actual suffering.

So, yes. If you believe that malarkey, then magic beans should not be a stretch.

Fascinating. I was under the impression that Yahweh created everything, at least in the beginning. So I'd supposed he created Adam, Eve, the serpent, and Eden, for definite.

Yes, and then he rested from creating. Nothing is said about him creating every thought and desire. What you are saying is that they were programed like computers from start to finish. Only pure speculation can cause one to draw that conclusion.

No not speculation. IF creator creates thing X AND has PERFECT knowledge how thing X operates; AND ALL variables are created by creator, OUTCOME is known. This is simple deductive reasoning. You either have a God with imperfect knowledge or one who didn't create... or one that Created with foreknowledge of imperfection, there is no other possiblity.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Okay I will address your points. "Magic beans are just like God." Dogma noted. Thanks.

Dogma? I think you might want to look up the definition of the word "dogma". It does not apply here.

Look, I know it sucks to be told your deeply held beliefs are as preposterous and silly as believing in magic beans. But they are. Don't get testy with me about it. I'm not the one who made you believe silly things. And don't try to make it sound like I'm the unreasonable one. I'm not. You are the one who thinks the omnipotent creator of all being:

1. needed a breather after 6 days.

Straw Man. He rested only from creating.

2. is concerned about some podunk's living situation

You provide no alternative.

3. cares enough about said podunk to rearrange reality to make everything turn out good for her...

Staw Man. Noone ever said she wanted reality rearranged.

4. ...despite not lifting a finger for people who are enduring actual suffering.

Straw Man. You have no idea what he's done. He's only not done what you want him to do. But he is going to do what you want eventually. He's going to destroy all those that cause their suffering and then they won't suffer anymore.

Quote from: Hatter

No not speculation. IF creator creates thing X AND has PERFECT knowledge how thing X operates; AND ALL variables are created by creator, OUTCOME is known. This is simple deductive reasoning. You either have a God with imperfect knowledge or one who didn't create... or one that Created with foreknowledge of imperfection, there is no other possiblity.

So if a human creates a true AI does he also create every individual thought the AI will ever have? Your premise is without foundation. Jehovah knew exactly what would happen if Adam succeeded and he also knew exactly what would happen if he failed. There is no indication, beyond your own speculation, that he determined what he would do.

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I asked for you to show US law was superior. I stated I think no man has the right to take the life of another, implying God's law is superior.

So a system that arbitrarily, oops! I mean at any given time for indiscriminate reasons, enforces the death penalty for lesser crimes than murder is a superior one? Even when it puts babies to death whose only "crime" is being born at the wrong time?

The very notion that a being which created everything, knows everything, and can do anything would ever be angry at all is absurd. If he already knows what will happen, and has the power to instantly change it[1], he can only be angry at himself.

Not sure there is a straw man here. I think that screwtape is arguing that it is kind of ridiculous to think of an omnipotent god needing 'rest'.

Perhaps the definition of 'rest' needs clarification here, because I know I'm also unsure as to how an omnipotent entity can get 'tired' and need 'rest'.

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2. is concerned about some podunk's living situation

You provide no alternative.

Alternative - not being concerned with podunk's living situation.

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3. cares enough about said podunk to rearrange reality to make everything turn out good for her...

Staw Man. Noone ever said she wanted reality rearranged.

Well, how else would you define someone pleading with the master of the universe for some specified outcome in reality? Unless specified outcome in reality is already known, then the idea of podunk requesting for some outcome implies a rearrangement of reality. Now, that rearrangement need not be substantial - maybe like changing the eigenstates of a bunch of particles of a rock to make it move another inch or so to prevent some chain of unfortunate events from unfolding.

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4. ...despite not lifting a finger for people who are enduring actual suffering.

Straw Man. You have no idea what he's done. He's only not done what you want him to do. But he is going to do what you want eventually. He's going to destroy all those that cause their suffering and then they won't suffer anymore.

Jst, from screwtape's perspective (and mine as well), god hasn't done anything. God appears to have done as much as magic beans have done.

You disagree, but I fail to see how it's a straw man argument.

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Quote from: Hatter

No not speculation. IF creator creates thing X AND has PERFECT knowledge how thing X operates; AND ALL variables are created by creator, OUTCOME is known. This is simple deductive reasoning. You either have a God with imperfect knowledge or one who didn't create... or one that Created with foreknowledge of imperfection, there is no other possiblity.

So if a human creates a true AI does he also create every individual thought the AI will ever have? Your premise is without foundation. Jehovah knew exactly what would happen if Adam succeeded and he also knew exactly what would happen if he failed. There is no indication, beyond your own speculation, that he determined what he would do.

If a human creates a true AI, and understands how s/he designed said AI, then yes, that human will have been responsible for every individual thought that the AI will ever have, unless the designer was counting on emergence to occur from unknown variables (such as external stimuli). Even injection of some type of agitating entropy should give predictable results, unless, of course, there are unknown variables. Of course, humans are fairly limited what can be known and measured, and therefore pretty limited in the precision and accuracy of any given prediction of a system. However, because of human limitations, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that a human AI designer would utilize some sort of external entropy to help foster some emergent behavior that would be considered an artificial intelligence. That expectation of emergence could be viewed as some manner of absolving responsibility of the human designers to know every individual future thought - assuming said external entropy is beyond either the control or full understanding of the designer.

Are there any external sources of entropy that god has limited control and understanding?Do you think that god knows how sentient consciousness works?Do you think that god can observe every aspect of any system (that is, nothing is hidden from his/her purview)?Do you think that god knows how the general operating mechanics of the universe works?

The only way an omnipotent, omniscient entity can be surprised by the result of some input upon a system (say, some stimuli interacting with some consciousness) is to have one or more variables a) hidden from him/her or b) willfully ignore analyzing some variables in making a prediction. If you choose column a, throw omniscience, omnipotence, or both out the window. If you choose column b, then god is a crappy designer, an inattentive father-figure/leader/deity, or some kind of strange masochist.

Because if god really, really wanted Adam to not, say, condemn all of creation to sin, then maybe he should have examined all of the variables and made some prediction as to where Adam was going to fail to meet his expectations and do something to correct that. You know, sometime prior to cursing the entirety of the universe.

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

JST ,those who truly suffer without the help of the deity will only suffer further if they fail to accept said deity as Lord over them. They suffer on earth,then duffer for eternity in "hell" because they could not accept a deity who did NOTHING to ease their suffering.

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

No not speculation. IF creator creates thing X AND has PERFECT knowledge how thing X operates; AND ALL variables are created by creator, OUTCOME is known. This is simple deductive reasoning. You either have a God with imperfect knowledge or one who didn't create... or one that Created with foreknowledge of imperfection, there is no other possiblity.

So if a human creates a true AI does he also create every individual thought the AI will ever have? Your premise is without foundation. Jehovah knew exactly what would happen if Adam succeeded and he also knew exactly what would happen if he failed. There is no indication, beyond your own speculation, that he determined what he would do.

So you are saying is that Yahweh cannot tell what happens in the future? That what your, or my, next thought will be is a total mystery to him?

But then you also say that "Jehovah knew exactly what would happen if Adam succeeded and he also knew exactly what would happen if he failed". Then presumably Yahweh knew exactly what would happen if he let the serpent into Eden.....and he did it anyway.

Which is it, Jst? Does Yahweh know what a person's next thought will be? In which case Hatter's explanation holds, and Yahweh is responsible for the Fall.

Or does Yahweh just know what would happen IF something else happens? In which case he knew what letting the serpent in would do, and hence - again - Yahweh is responsible for the Fall.

Or does Yahweh have no clue what will happen in any circumstance? Has no way of telling what people will think or do? In which case he STILL bears the responsibility for the Fall, for creating with no clue what the outcome would be. Certainly, with no knowledge of how things would pan out, any Plan he might have had can be no more than a hopeful wish on his part.

I'm very much NOT going to head down the "whether we have free will" route here - but my general point is that Yahweh set up Adam and Eve, gave them all their starting desires and feelings, set up every aspect of their environment, and then started things running. In such a case, if - a few days into the plan - the two humans on the planet think the wrong thoughts, then there was something wrong with the set up.

I agree. The believer's standpoint tends to hand-wave certain things off if they conflict with the hoped-for ideal.

As I remember it, my belief about Adam and Eve indicated that god was not omniscient, certainly not in the "can see in every direction in time" sense*. I would have said that he was aware of all things at his present moment in time (a theory that Genesis pretty much trashes, but which I obviously discarded because it was inconvenient to my worldview). So he created Adam and Eve with full freedom of action, then put a tree in the garden and essentially told them that the tree represented god's sovereignty. To take from the tree would make them like god, "knowing good and bad." I felt that this meant, not that the tree would confer some extra knowledge magically, but that the fruit represented independence. Adam and Eve would be like god, in that they'd be the ones deciding what they could or could not do.

It falls apart on anything more than a superficial analysis, but at the time I wasn't about to do anything that would unsettle my belief system.

*I wish I could remember the issue, but there was a Watchtower magazine article, probably back in the 90s, that tried to explain how god could predict the future while constantly being blindsided by it. God could see into the future, but it was an ability that he use sparingly, in the way that a muscular man doesn't always lift heavy objects, but he is still strong. That was the actual analogy, and it left me flabbergasted. I wonder, sometimes, if someone just snuck it into the magazine and wound up getting chewed out afterwards, it was that bizarre.

So you are saying yhwh did in fact get pooped out. That's funny. That is quite some god you have there. Why the heck would an all-powerful being need to rest at all? Did he do all this creation before he quit smoking and got on a low carb diet?

Now I know you are trying to be obtuse. You and the religious lady believe yhwh is going to take care of her housing situation. That means yhwh is going to have to have some control of the situation. That is to say, yhwh will have to arrange (or re-arrange, if there had been previous plans laid) reality. Prayers are inherently requests to alter reality.

Missing the point again. You seem to be saying it is reasonable for this deluded woman to think yhwh is going to ensure she has a place to live. I am questioning that because there are people with more dire needs that yhwh has not met or found a way to be met. As long as there is suffering in the world, there is a problem with the argument for a god who does things for people.

He's only not done what you want him to do. But he is going to do what you want eventually. He's going to destroy all those that cause their suffering and then they won't suffer anymore.

Destroy all those that cause their suffering? Interesting. As I recall in this case a religious woman has to move because her landlord is selling the house she lives in. That does not strike me as an action warranting destruction.

Suffering is a problem for you. It has always been a problem for the religious. Some of you may act as if it isn't, as if theodicy has been solved. But it is and hit hasn't.

Not for me. I can see a godless reality populated with people having different goals. I can see people as intending to do good, or at least no harm, and still be at cross purposes, causing each other strife. Conflict is a result of being. At least, of this being. You would think an omnipotent god could have created a reality without that as trait.

No not speculation. IF creator creates thing X AND has PERFECT knowledge how thing X operates; AND ALL variables are created by creator, OUTCOME is known. This is simple deductive reasoning. You either have a God with imperfect knowledge or one who didn't create... or one that Created with foreknowledge of imperfection, there is no other possiblity.

So if a human creates a true AI does he also create every individual thought the AI will ever have? Your premise is without foundation. Jehovah knew exactly what would happen if Adam succeeded and he also knew exactly what would happen if he failed. There is no indication, beyond your own speculation, that he determined what he would do.

No, you are incorrect by the use of an uneven analogy. A human did not determine the path of every quark, every external variable. If a human did have said capacity to do so, and affect it....yes he would be responsible for actions of the AI. You are either proposing your diety is lacking in competence or cannot control vairables thus did not create everything. Which is it?

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Background. Wife had followup with surgeon today after having both breasts removed last Thursday. Before that is was four months of aggressive chemo. Pathology reports came with the appointment today and they were expected but still not pleasing. I had called my dad to let him know. He went in to one of his prayer rants where he demonizes the cancer..yada yada...!!

This followed as a personal message from his wife, my step.

Ran across this as I was reading today.Psalm 18:16-19He (God) reached down from on high and took hold of me;He pulled me out of deep waters.He rescued me from my powerful enemyand from those who hated me, for they were too strong for me.They confronted me in the day of my distress,but the Lord was my support.He brought me out to a wide-open place;He rescued me because He delighted in me.Praying for all of you! Cry out to Him! He answers - He rescued me!Love you!!

I replied: Please Dont.

This is why the madness has to stop. Because the result is discomfort and anger. Yes I need to grow up. No I am not perfect.But this is ridiculous.