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Kim's Age

Not sure I agree with the age estimate. Since Kim took driver's ed in her sophomore year, she would have needed to be 15. BluetoothThePirate 01:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Kim's age in season 4 is uncertain. I know many (especially decrying the mods's deletions on dA) like to say that because she graduated, she is 18. Fact is, since we don't know Kim birth date, and Graduation is in June, there is a 50-50 chance Kim is still 17 as the series finale credits rolled. With that 17-18 estimate, subtract three years (soph-senior), and her age is 14-15. In Colorado (fanon with supportable evidence) permits are handed out at 15 and 6 months, so chances are Kim's drivers' ed class at time of episode (you can take the class younger, just not behind the wheel) she was a junior.

First, you can get your driver's permit in Colorado at the age of 15. And, most importantly, to even get that permit at 15 one must "complete an Affidavit of Completion of a Driver Education Classroom Course or Behind-the-Wheel Training (BTW)" before being allowed to receive the permit (per the Colorado DMV website). Therefore, the original contention that one cannot take driver's ed until after you are of age to receive your permit is not true.

Simply because graduation is in June does not mean that there is a 50/50 chance that Kim was 17 during graduation. Since, the normal cutoff for deciding when a student is of age to start schooling is right around the beginning of August, then there is actually only about a 17% (or 1 out of 6) chance that she was 17 at the time of graduation, and given how many parents willingly hold younger students back it is likely even lower than that.

Taking both of these into account it is actually most likely that a driver's eduction course would be taught to Freshman (who will be turning 15 during the school year) to allow them the maximum amount of time with their permits to accumulate their required driving necessary to obtain their next level of permit. However, since we know that Kim is a Sophomore in the first season we can discount that MHS offers it normally during the Freshman year and instead make the next most reasonable assumption that it is taught during the Sophomore year.

None of this however, changes the fact that Kim was most likely 15-16 during the first season and 17-18 during the last season.

That is still only a 2 year difference when Soph to Senior is three. So would not posting her infobox age(s) as a range instead of one (est.) number be better? ::shrug:: Either way, I'll not push it further.

I am lost as to what you mean by two year difference when Sophomore to Senior is three, 15 to 17 includes 16. Sophomore to Senior includes Junior. So, depending on what you mean by difference in this regard depends on whether you are two or three apart. However, if you use that same definition on both then they will give you the same answer. To better see this, consider the grade number instead of the name, 10 to 12. Whatever math you do to 15 to 17 and 10 to 12 will give you the exact same number.

Regarding the age range. Yeah, it would be better, so I will do that now.

Spacer

Do you like the look of the space better than having it contiguous with the following header?
Mknopp 13:22, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Games are Non-Canon?

I noticed that this listed the games as 'non-canon' in the article. While I can see the Disney Parks/apperances in Lilo and Stich as Non-Canon, the games had a fairly consistent level of continuity, on par with the show's usual amount. (That is, continuity by accident.) I don't think the games are considered non-canon; a level of canon lower than the series when disputes come up? No arguements. Completely non-canon? I disagree with the statement. Luke Danger 20:24, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

The games may be "Official", but they are hardly any more canon than the L&S crossover. However, it has been suggested that a page for this kind of "Kim in other media" can be addressed.

Gallery

College or University student?

One of the edits I just undid included mention of Kim as a university student. This was not definitively stated in canon. She got acceptance letters from all over the world, but she never actually chose one. Also, as the show ended a day or so after a worldwide alien invasion complete with autonomous walking war machines indiscriminately destroying things, there is no assurance of how many institutions of higher learning survived unscathed or the level of damages incurred by each, if any.

On a personal note, after that, were I sitting on the board of any such institutions or even the parent of a student, *I'd* pitch a strong campaign for revoking her acceptance(s). She may have helped saved the world several times over, but "when *aliens* come to Earth *solely* (which is how most the news reports and populace will pitch and see it) for one girl, do we *really* want her walking what's left of our hallowed halls? There are other places of Higher Learning in the world, surely she can go to one of them…." And of course I'd imagine the same conversation in nearly all of them.

Yeah, conjecture and my own personal head-fanon, but point still remains when she and Ron flew off into moon-set, she was not stated as a Student *anywhere*, and that's canon.
Love Robin (talk) 22:19, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that it is definitely not canon that she is a university student.

As for the head-fanon, well that would make sense in the real world, but doesn't really fit in the Disneyfied world of KP. After all, if KP were the real world she and her brothers and Ron would all have been yanked from their homes for child endangerment so fast that their heads would be spinning. Also, Drakken and Shego, and pretty much all of the rest of the villains, wouldn't have been stopped by a couple of teen vigilantes but a cruise missile or .50 cal bullet to the brain. And the list could go on and on.

Simply put, while it is interesting to explore these scenarios in fanfiction and the comments section. As you said, they don't have a place on the wiki.

Sorry. For the purposes of this wiki, "Canon" is what is seen on screen. "Words of God" have no place here beyond Notes and Trivia sections. As for that "Alternative ending" it was no more than a storyboard image, so faaaaaar from canon, and not enough to say that Kim is a college or university student. Last we know from canon is she applied to a lot of places, and Ron was concerned she was going to be accepted all over the world. --Love Robin (talk) 20:30, October 15, 2013 (UTC)

It is obtained from a legitimate first-hand and/or second-hand source.

The information must not contradict information presented in the show itself. If it does then despite what the creators say it is not considered canon.

That being said, I don't think that the alternate scene should be counted as canon or even the "word of god". While it is shown on Loter's site, it was an alternate ending. In other words, it was an idea that the considered and then purposely chose to not include. I place it in the same arena as Kim being a blonde. It was an idea that they kicked around did some drawings for. Interesting trivia, but it isn't canon.

PS: I think it is highly probable that they didn't go with the alternate ending because it basically points very strongly in the opposite direction of the preceding "word of god" that Kim and Ron go to the same college. The alternate ending is all about a forlorn Kim going off to college by herself. Whereas the real ending is about Kim and Ron going to the stars together.

Length

This article is *unnecessarily" long. Most of which is re-stating detailed information when there are articles to cover such things (or need to be!!), and indeed there are already links to the various "main articles". For example, Kim's brothers are super intelligent, but most of that should be in their article cause all we need here is what Kim's relationship with them is like. namely, frustrating as she is often the target of their pranks, etc.

Pruning the redundant info will seriously reduce the length.

There should be a paragraph about this in the MoS; "tell only what is relevant to the needs of a current article and link to main subject articles where available for additional details, and consider making ones were needed."

You are absolutely correct about the length of this article and the redundancy of information. It is also a major problem with Ron's page as well. The problem is that to clean it up will take a good amount of time, and, at least for me, at this point we are still tackling some much more basic structuring and information gathering problems. To be honest, I look at Kim and Ron's pages as good problems, at least when compared to pages for some characters that simply don't exist at all or consist of wholly inadequate amounts of information.

As to the notation in the MoS. I agree and would like for you to make the suggestion in the forum page for changes to the MoS.

Valedictorian

In Graduation, Part 1, it is clearly stated that Felix is the valedictorian. It also explains why Kim is giving the speech, as it was Felix that asked her to.

Okay, I looked up the article. I was a little off on the exact details, but the jist is still the same.

[quote]She started out as a pretty standard-looking athletic blonde. It evolved; we just tried to make her more unique. I think one of the things that design-wise they pushed for was Lara Croft. But together with Disney Channel we came to realise that this is an interesting character and a fun character, but not a very real character. That’s where we really pushed the designers into the direction of “let’s make her look like a real 14-year-old girl” that she’s not some ‘bombshell’, she’s just this pretty girl who’s athletic.[/quote]

Kim's original design was a blonde and they purposely designed her to be a pretty girl, but not a bombshell.

This article is also the one that makes me think that most of the problems with Ron in the fourth season was due to executive interference.

Because, the statement of, "Over the course of the seasons, the one feed- back that we consistently got from boys was they did want to see Ron succeed a little more, so heading into season 4 we let him develop and be- come more confident so he wasn’t always messing up." There is almost no way that writers as creative as Bob and Mark went from that statement to what we got in season four where Ron was pretty much *always* messing up. Is it any wonder that Bob and Mark finished KP on a Friday and started at Nick on the following Monday?

Secret Agent/Spy

I often hear or read that Kim is a secret agent or spy, and I think that Disney even promoted her as such on some merchandise, but I have a real problem with that. Very little of what Kim does could be construed as secret agent or spy.

Both of these entail a certain amount of covertness and a lot of undercover or intelligence gathering work. Kim does very little of any of this. In fact, I can count on one hand how many instances I can think of right now where Kim actually goes undercover or simply gathers information.

What Kim is more like is a private detective or mercenary.

That being said, should we eliminate the phrase "secret agent" from Kim's page?

Kim is world renowned and her exploits in papers and magazines. She is far from "secret" despite having been tapped as a resource by the Global Justice Network, themselves less than secret.

She's not "mercenary" as the point was made that *she* did things for free (presuming no one else about her, like Wade or her parents, accepted monies into a trust for her. A nice fanon, but tis not canon), and she has rarely been tapped as a detective despite putting to use strong deductive reasonings.

Early on Kim's missions were the result of hits on her website, but that really petered off as Wade began more proactively watching her foes' actions.

If Kim is *anything*, she is a vigilante. Unless there are unseen contracts Wade has accepted in her name for various labs and such, Kim's missions usually start by being told something is going down by one of her Rogues Gallery and she butts her nose into it on her own. At best her missions start out in one direction before leading her to the villains.

That is why I said that she is more like a mercenary not that she is a mercenary. And yes, vigilante is a correct term, but she is also very often contacted and asked to retrieve some stolen item. Whether she gets paid or not this is something that a private detective, mercenary, or "security consultant" would do.

I think freelance heroine and vigilante are the two best terms to cover everything that Kim does. "Freelance heroine" fits pretty much everything she does, from babysitting to world-saving. And it also includes that she is good-natured, can be hired to act as a detective or bounty-less hunter for example, and that she's paid in favors. "Vigilante" highlights both that no agency empowers her, and that typical law enforcement is ill-equipped to deal with the bad guys she does. Also that violence is her chief way of stopping them, not that she really has a choice since she has no authority. The only real hang-up is that Kim seems to be an accepted vigilante, since the law isn't pursuing her and she even has military and police contacts.

That said, I notice that "secret agent" is still in the overview for some reason. While I won't argue that she can be hired to gather intelligence on certain people, I still think that falls under the many roles she can be requested to fill, and is therefore covered by freelance heroine. In fact, I think it's a better idea to just list all the roles she has ever filled under Abilities, if no one has an objection. That seems the easiest way to showcase what she has done and is capable of. - Dap00 21:55, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Dap00, that sounds like a good idea. Kim's article needs a ton of work.

I've started going through transcripts looking for past adventures that Ron and people granting favors mentioned in passing. I suspect that's where the bulk of the less obvious stuff will come from. But I used "espionage agent" instead of "secret agent". Almost everyone Kim could be convinced to spy on was at least suspected of wrongdoing, but if any of those people actually did catch her, 9 times out of 10 they'd know her name, address, and typical hang-out spots, so it feels wrong to label that as secret anything. - Dap00 12:24, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Kim and Ron *did* elect to help Bonnie find a new love interest. However, ignoring this is what the Writers chose to do with Bonnie and Jr and staying in-universe, thing is when 2 people are attracted to each other, it is out of the hands of everyone else. While Kim coulda/shoulda at least pointed out Jr was a criminal, fact remains that his money would have blinded her anyway.

Now, all that said, *I* cling to the Graduation closing credits scene where "Bonnie" morphs into Camille as proof Bonnie and Jr are not together. *I personally* do not like the idea of them together and feel Bonnie deserves better.

Love Interest?

I'm just curious. On Ron's page it has Kim as a love interest in S3 and S4. On this page it just has Kim as a love interest in S4. I didn't edit it cause i figured there must be a reason for that. But looking at the rules i can't put my finger on it. This is a small thing that jumped out on the character pages. Thanks for any clarification as to what this is. I sort of get the argument Ron wasn't a love interest in S3 to Kim but in that case Kim wasn't one to Ron in S3 either. I guess what jumped out to me is i think it should just be S4 for both. Slicknickshady (talk) 05:04, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

A good point, my friend.

I think it is mostly a case of the two pages not yet synced to their common information. Editors often come along and add something to one article but not to others which might-maybe-should reflect the same point. In addition, we are still in the process of upgrading articles into compliance with the Manual of Syle, so some are lagging others.

FWIW, it may be someone once viewed Ron's introspection and decision in Emotion Sickness as *he* deciding Kim was his love interest, and frankly, that does happen in RL where a person becomes interested in another first. Then again, Although a "movie", since StD was the season3/then-series finale, BOTH Kim and Ron should be considered as love interests in S3… dating in S4, but interests at the end of S3. Though I can see where 1 dance and kiss in the last 2 minutes of the last episode at the end of a season, compared to the entire next season, could be confuzzling to many. Especially as in RL, 1 dance and kiss do not a "couple" make…

I think you make good points as well. Really, it's a small thing. And to touch on one thing you said, this place is really informative so i never find really anything missing. I do think character pages should be synched to common information but i figured something like you mentoned,,,upgrading of articles was happening soon and i figured this was a discussion that could be had.

Emotion Sickness was interesting and i still really have no idea how i view it. Obviously what was going on was real to Ron cause he didn't know till near the end that it was mind control. So his reactions prior was based on faulty data. If anything, it might have planted the seed that he ended up refuting in the episode.

IMO that episode didn't signify Kim as a love interest. Anymore then the episode later on "Bad Boy" did. I was thinking about the point you brought up with "So The Drama". Though a movie it was basically like three episodes. So having S3 and S4 when as you said S3 was only like two minutes of them being together.

I guess my final thoughts is they should be the same. The love interest time frame should be the same. But thats just me. I can just easily see other arguments like Kim was a LI to Ron before Ron was to Kim. I don't agree personally with that argument but in Canon it is debatable.

As i mentioned this is just a small thing to think about. And all this could be as simple as someone editing one of these pages love interests columns to something different then the other.

First, it shouldn't be in each of their articles individually. It should be on the Kim and Ron's relationship article, with a link to this article on each of Kim and Ron's articles.

Second, it should read third and fourth season. While, So the Drama was a made for TV movie it is part of season three, and the exact length of time in season three isn't really important. They were each other's love interest at some point during season three.