I don't claim to know why everyone does something. I mean some people are actually stupid enough to believe that announcing another player is playing poorly in front of a group of stranger will help them.

Again, no one is publicly shaming and pointing and laughing. Even if the OP was talking in raid chat, that doesn't mean he was shaming him. Maybe there were multiple good warlock in the raid that could all offer input. Its arrogant to claim to know exactly why everyone does something.

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Originally Posted by Compstance

Is that how it should be? It doesn't really matter, because that's how it is.

Lmao I hate reading that, but its true. I just wish everyone could take criticism as well as me I guess. I would rarely let a random stranger actually get under my skin, especially when they were offering advice. I might feel a little embarrassed, but that would be my own fault.

Again, no one is publicly shaming and pointing and laughing. Even if the OP was talking in raid chat, that doesn't mean he was shaming him. Maybe there were multiple good warlock in the raid that could all offer input. Its arrogant to claim to know exactly why everyone does something.

Moanalisa has just explained the situation to you yet again in the other thread of a similar topic and you once again refuse to accept anything that deviates from what you believe to be true. If you cannot get your head around the fact that people do not like their shortcomings pointed out in front of others and will react poorly when this is done no matter how well intentioned the helper that is your problem no-one else's.

More like "Hey, I saw your tires blow out, you can get really cheap replacements at XYZ, they are having a sale!"

Or

"Hey we are in the same weight watchers class, here is a great recipe for some low fat, sugar free cheesecake!"

The other player's "tires" didn't "blow out". They were not "in the same weight-watchers class". It's a free-for-all out here, dude. The only thing they had in common was that they played WoW and joined the same LFR group. Doesn't mean they share interests beyond that.

The other guy could be a pro-player who knew more about the game than OP, but was testing something or doing something else meanwhile. Perhaps he was sick and unable to play well or he had changed or lost gear; there are many options that it didn't seem the OP took into account.

In any case, that people join a LFR goup does not mean they share interests further than playing WoW and joining a LFR group. If a group is doing a random dungeon (what are those called? Too long since I've played...) and 3 people decides they want a warlock to tank, does that mean that the 4th and 5th should say "hey, I can see your warlock is taking all the damage, do you want tips to stop him from doing so?" even if the 4th or 5th player doesn't want the warlock to tank? If the 4th or 5th player then decides to try to tank, should the first 3 players then say "hey, I can see you're trying to tank, do you want any tips on how to play dps?" That people join a LFR or a DFG (?) does not mean they share any interest as how to play in it. If another player does not share an interest, you should imo generally not give him advice on how to attain an accomplishment which he does not want.

It's not a guild with stated interests, it's a public group. Not a car pool with friends, but a bus. There is not anymore link between the players immediately except that they happen to be in the same LFR and to be playing WoW. There's no set of interests that come with LFR imo.

It's not a guild with stated interests, it's a public group. Not a car pool with friends, but instead a bus. There is not anymore link between the players immediately except that they happen to be in the same LFR and to be playing WoW. There's no set of interests that come with LFR imo.

Moanalisa has just explained the situation to you yet again in the other thread of a similar topic and you once again refuse to accept anything that deviates from what you believe to be true. If you cannot get your head around the fact that people do not like their shortcomings pointed out in front of others and will react poorly when this is done no matter how well intentioned the helper that is your problem no-one else's.

If you cannot understand that once you enter a team, you: A)disrespecting them by under performing on purpose and B) Owe it to the group to contribute.

I have just explained the situation to you yet again and you once again refuse to accept anything that deviates from what you believe to be true

The other player's "tires" didn't "blow out". They were not "in the same weight-watchers class". It's a free-for-all out here, dude. The only thing they had in common was that they played WoW and joined the same LFR group. Doesn't mean they share interests beyond that.

You are placing yourself onto a team, that needs to work together to reach a group oriented goal, that everyone in the group HOPEFULLY wants. That is downing the boss and getting gold. You have that interest in common.

When on a team, you should pull your weight. Many of your examples would be fine examples. I would accept "I'm trying out something new in LFR man" Perfectly fine. I don't expect everyone to be be competing for top DPS in LFR.

By trying to help the other warlock, the OP was trying to further the team/groups goal of killing boss as quickly as possible to collect loot and gold. If you are in there to get carried or afk, you are wasting other peoples time.

Nobody wants to be on a bus with someone that asks to stop the bus as every stop, and then changes their minds. Thats rude, and its wasting other peoples time.

You can't write a text that could not be interpreted as an insult, you can see everything considering your playstyle as insulting if your skin is thin enough. It depends on their level of tolerance and the lvl of tolerance of the guy the op talked about is rather low, as such not worth the hassle.

Exactly. It's not worth the hassle of trying to help them. Just get them kicked from the group. Problem solved.

If someone make dps mainly from his autoattacks and pet attacks IDK about his feelings. There are many people too lazy to press few buttons, they just want epics, and this is why I don't want to make LFR now (and Flex have better items too), but I kinda need do it on my alt because of legendary quest line (still 3 titan runes). LFR really suck because of people attitude, and there should be way to easier kick people who just afk whole instance (maybe they should have decent uptime or something like that to get loot).

Originally Posted by Compstance

My best guess in this scenario is that they pulled before the tank, topped the meters for the 6 seconds prior to their death, and then got booted for pulling.

I could be wrong, it's just an educated guess.

Well topping meters mean you did most dmg in fight, not best dps (so damage done, not dps).

Last edited by Alexeht; 2013-09-26 at 05:22 PM.

Originally Posted by Shinra1

black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed

Originally Posted by Ehrenpanzer

I see you've met Endus, our resident "you have a different opinion other then my virtue-signalling ultra liberal bullshit so here's an infraction" moderator......

No, this is wrong. There would be literally no reason to give a fat person tips to lose weight unless asked. It wouldn't benefit the OP at all. I also doubt losing weight is something the OP is really good at doing.

It was a hypothetical situation, and you don't know whether or not it would benefit the advice giver. For all you know the two are sharing a bus seat every day. Whether or not the OP could give weight loss tips is irrelevant to the hypothetical situation. The point was that if you want to give someone else tips about an area in which you have some expertise it's not wise to open up with a blatant decree of your beneficiary's deficiency. It's better to ask someone why they're doing what they're doing and then counter with a way they could do it better. The OP's way of doing it instantly puts them on the defensive and from then on they're not listening to what you're saying. It doesn't matter whether the OP was right/truthful or wrong because if someone doesn't listen all your expertise goes to waste.

Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

IN LFR on the other hand, if you are a warlock, and you see a fellow warlock seemingly struggling.. especially after a wipe... there is nothing wrong at all with trying to help out. Your examples aren't comparable. Helping out a player in LFR would benefit the whole group, and its also considered nice to help others in video games.

Again, you missed the point. I have no problem with trying to help someone else out. Even if intentions were good, the OP went about the execution in completely the wrong way and ended up causing more harm than good. If he hadn't instantly put that other warlock on the defensive he might have been able to get through to him and actually help him. Since he chose to completely disregard tact and open up with an insult he'll never be able to help that guy out.

Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

He actually didn't call the other lock bad. He simply stated his dps was lower than the tanks.

And that pretty much implies that he's bad. Pretend that I said, "You have the IQ of a first grader." I wouldn't called you stupid, but what conclusions are you going to draw from that?

Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

Unless he wrote "you are bad" (Which he didn't) or something equivalent, you are both putting words in the OPs mouth and spreading slander against him.

As I explained above he stated something equivalent. By the way, if it's written it's libel. I can't slander a guy on the forum

Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

JUst because an overly sensitive person would make that connection, doesn't mean the OP was calling him bad.

Overly sensitive? How about reasonably intelligent. "The DPS is outhealing you!" "The newly levelled 90 in greens is pulling aggro off of you!" "The tank is doing more DPS than you!" All of those statements pretty much amount to "You can't do your job," and that equates to, "You're bad."

Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

A mature and warranted reply would be "Hey, that'd be great" or "No thanks, I'm trying my own plan, and have been getting better" or "Hey man, that isn't nice, I swear I'm trying!"

Human nature trumps maturity. It's been that way for thousands of years, and it's not likely to change any time soon. You can't control how the other person's going to react, but you can take steps to maximize their chances of responding favorably. What good did it do to act like a jerk and then come crying to the forums because the other player didn't respond "maturely?" Ultimately the warlock didn't get any better and the OP was still stuck carrying him through the instance. If he had exercised a little tact the situation could have been a win-win instead.

If you cannot understand that once you enter a team, you: A)disrespecting them by under performing on purpose and B) Owe it to the group to contribute.

I have just explained the situation to you yet again and you once again refuse to accept anything that deviates from what you believe to be true

This is your view that is not shared by others. The people in LFR owe you or me nothing and the sooner you accept that the better for everyone. When I join a LFR group I accept that the only standard others have to meet is the item level requirement set by Blizzard and that some of the players I encounter will have a level of ability and motivation that differs from mine. I know that this means that some of those players will not be able to perform at the same level as the rest of the group I, also, know that people rarely react well to negative reinforcement and if I point this out to the group it will be a humiliating experience for the bad player and will do nothing to teach them the error of their ways.

If you want others to accept your belief form your own group with like minded individuals.

If you really want to help a bad player make a note of their name and realm and help them on a private, individual level outside of the raid.

You are placing yourself onto a team, that needs to work together to reach a group oriented goal, that everyone in the group HOPEFULLY wants. That is downing the boss and getting gold. You have that interest in common.

When on a team, you should pull your weight. Many of your examples would be fine examples. I would accept "I'm trying out something new in LFR man" Perfectly fine. I don't expect everyone to be be competing for top DPS in LFR.

By trying to help the other warlock, the OP was trying to further the team/groups goal of killing boss as quickly as possible to collect loot and gold. If you are in there to get carried or afk, you are wasting other peoples time.

Nobody wants to be on a bus with someone that asks to stop the bus as every stop, and then changes their minds. Thats rude, and its wasting other peoples time.

That's why we have a bus driver . I'd disagree that they are a team; if they were then your points would be very fitting to that situation (we are a team - if you don't want to contribute to achieving the team's goals or is not able to do so in a manner deemed adequate by the other team members, then you shouldn't be on the team), but I don't think there is anything that connects their goals universally.

It's more like a business relation based on a contract of means - I scratch your back if you scratch mine, but if I don't want to scratch your back, you should not expect me to. There's no common goal, but only a tit-for-tat system. In a family or with friends there is a common goal, but at a workplace or in a public arrangement there is not.

It's probably a very weak contract even at that, but they are only connected together by means without any will. It might even be how work manages to get done. The ineffective is parted with - not picked up and improved. In a family or with friends it is tolerated, because they share a common goal; they want to get better together, not alone, but only together. Their interest in the welfare of the other as well as themselves takes precedence over any interest in an individual alone and they become a unit, a team, and they want for the unit, the team, to get better. Thus, the survival of the team become more important than the survival of any member alone and the team tries to keep its members and furnish them with resources and general success.

In this setting that the OP describes (or generally in LFR) there is not any general will between the players binding them together - merely the contract between individuals without common will based on a functional relationship. I scratch your back if you scratch mine, and if you don't scratch my back, then I won't scratch yours and there would be no contract. They aren't connected in body or by will. Only by means which each individual tries to take advantage of best as he can (that can be positive - you can tank, I can heal).

It was a hypothetical situation, and you don't know whether or not it would benefit the advice giver. For all you know the two are sharing a bus seat every day. Whether or not the OP could give weight loss tips is irrelevant to the hypothetical situation. The point was that if you want to give someone else tips about an area in which you have some expertise it's not wise to open up with a blatant decree of your beneficiary's deficiency. It's better to ask someone why they're doing what they're doing and then counter with a way they could do it better. The OP's way of doing it instantly puts them on the defensive and from then on they're not listening to what you're saying. It doesn't matter whether the OP was right/truthful or wrong because if someone doesn't listen all your expertise goes to waste.

Again, you missed the point. I have no problem with trying to help someone else out. Even if intentions were good, the OP went about the execution in completely the wrong way and ended up causing more harm than good. If he hadn't instantly put that other warlock on the defensive he might have been able to get through to him and actually help him. Since he chose to completely disregard tact and open up with an insult he'll never be able to help that guy out.

And that pretty much implies that he's bad. Pretend that I said, "You have the IQ of a first grader." I wouldn't called you stupid, but what conclusions are you going to draw from that?

As I explained above he stated something equivalent. By the way, if it's written it's libel. I can't slander a guy on the forum

Overly sensitive? How about reasonably intelligent. "The DPS is outhealing you!" "The newly levelled 90 in greens is pulling aggro off of you!" "The tank is doing more DPS than you!" All of those statements pretty much amount to "You can't do your job," and that equates to, "You're bad."

Human nature trumps maturity. It's been that way for thousands of years, and it's not likely to change any time soon. You can't control how the other person's going to react, but you can take steps to maximize their chances of responding favorably. What good did it do to act like a jerk and then come crying to the forums because the other player didn't respond "maturely?" Ultimately the warlock didn't get any better and the OP was still stuck carrying him through the instance. If he had exercised a little tact the situation could have been a win-win instead.

I think your examples are out of wack. I understand they are hypotheticals, but they aren't even close to being equivalent situations, and thus can't be compared. If you said "you scored worse on that text than kids two grades lower than you" that might be a bit better. Maybe I was having a bad day, or as someone else stated, trying something new. Doing less DPS than the tank doesn't mean you are bad. It could be a good player slacking, someone trying a new spec, someone that got a phone call...

Communication is key you are right. I'm not arguing against tact, for the record! I just think we all need to quit being so sensitive! Help and advice used to be given all the time! What has changed?

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Originally Posted by Pann

This is your view that is not shared by others.

False, people have agreed with me.

The people in LFR owe you or me nothing and the sooner you accept that the better for everyone.

They owe you respect and courtesy, and not doing so is trolling and deserves a boot (which they often get)

When I join a LFR group I accept that the only standard others have to meet is the item level requirement set by Blizzard and that some of the players I encounter will have a level of ability and motivation that differs from mine. I know that this means that some of those players will not be able to perform at the same level as the rest of the group I, also, know that people rarely react well to negative reinforcement and if I point this out to the group it will be a humiliating experience for the bad player and will do nothing to teach them the error of their ways.

All of this is fine. Trying your best does not necessarily make you bad. Being a disrespectful jerk and not trying makes you bad.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Tenver

That's why we have a bus driver . I'd disagree that they are a team; if they were then your points would be very fitting to that situation (we are a team - if you don't want to contribute to achieving the team's goals or is not able to do so in a manner deemed adequate by the other team members, then you shouldn't be on the team), but I don't think there is anything that connects their goals universally.

It's more like a business relation based on a contract of means - I scratch your back if you scratch mine, but if I don't want to scratch your back, you should not expect me to. There's no common goal, but only a tit-for-tat system. In a family or with friends there is a common goal, but at a workplace or in a public arrangement there is not.

It's probably a very weak contract even at that, but they are only connected together by means without any will. It might even be how work manages to get done. The ineffective is parted with - not picked up and improved. In a family or with friends it is tolerated, because they share a common goal; they want to get better together, not alone, but only together. Their interest in the welfare of the other as well as themselves takes precedence over any interest in an individual alone and they become a unit, a team, and they want for the unit, the team, to get better. Thus, the survival of the team become more important than the survival of any member alone and the team tries to keep its members and furnish them with resources and general success.

In this setting that the OP describes (or generally in LFR) there is not any general will between the players binding them together - merely the contract between individuals without common will based on a functional relationship. I scratch your back if you scratch mine, and if you don't scratch my back, then I won't scratch yours and there would be no contract. They aren't connected in body or by will. Only by means which each individual tries to take advantage of best as he can (that can be positive - you can tank, I can heal).

being in LFR connects their goals. You chose to join an LFR, with like minded(because they all want loot, to kill bosses) people. That should be obvious.

What really happens is I scratch a back, and I'm welcomed with shit being thrown in my face. Some people want to get carried, which is asking for their backs scratched, but when its time to scratch mine, they are suddenly not interested. Thats welching on a deal.

As Pann often points out to me, you are at the will of group. No one likes their time wasted. Don't be surprised if you get the boot for wasting time and leeching.

Communication is key you are right. I'm not arguing against tact, for the record! I just think we all need to quit being so sensitive! Help and advice used to be given all the time! What has changed?

Here's the thing: the "overly sensitive" warlock doesn't visit this forum and probably won't do so any time soon. All this venting about him is going into the void. "We all need to quit being so sensitive!" is a very childish outlook to have. The fact is that you can't control others' actions. You can only control your own. Instead of fixating on how "overly sensitive" the other guy was it's more productive to focus on actions you could have taken to work around that sensitivity. Otherwise you're doomed to forever fail at your interactions "because the other guy was too sensitive." Some (I would argue most) people are sensitive. That's just how it is. You're not going to change that by complaining about it on MMO-C. You can, however, factor that knowledge into your future interactions. You'd be surprised at how much better you'll be able to get along with others.