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While I totally understand that style guide is more popular (in most cases), they don't seem to care that there are true hardcore fans of the classic POP toy line that are feeling disregarded, hurt etc. by their comments/actions.

And short of dropping everything and rushing to make frilly-caped-She-Ra (which they won't), what are they supposed to do? I suppose they could stop replying to any questions about toy-PoP at all (save for "We can't discuss anything past King Hsss/Leech/TP He-Man/etc"-type answers if pushed in a Q&A), but that won't stop you feeling, uh, the way you're feeling. Especially with the almost religious use of "true" that's beginning to emerge here (and even more explicitly from D04M & Darkspecter on the last page).

And short of dropping everything and rushing to make frilly-caped-She-Ra (which they won't), what are they supposed to do? I suppose they could stop replying to any questions about toy-PoP at all (save for "We can't discuss anything past King Hsss/Leech/TP He-Man/etc"-type answers if pushed in a Q&A), but that won't stop you feeling, uh, the way you're feeling. Especially with the almost religious use of "true" that's beginning to emerge here (and even more explicitly from D04M & Darkspecter on the last page).

Well, I think they've let the hope for toy-based POP linger for too long now to make a definitive statement that totally excludes those versions from the line.

At this point, it would help if they stopped putting toy-based POP in a negative light and rationalizing the style guide/Filmation looks. We already know the latter is generally more popular. It's really a moot point. If toy-based POP figures are a real possibility in MOTUC, there should be no need for those sort of explanations. They're making this more complicated than it has to be. Once in awhile they could toss in figure that's faithful to the toy. Spread the love some.

As for my use of the word "true", I'm using that in the context of being a fan who generally prefers the toy line looks to the style guide.

Tallstar, I think the toy designs for PoP have a better chance of appearing at some point in the life of the MOTUC line than the 200X designs, if that is any comfort.

As a recovering mad man with regard to "hyper anime detail" (It's not hyper or anime, it's just MORE detail dammit!!!!) I must say that making peace with the negative readings is your only hope. Focus on campaigning for the alternate designs for Angela and Catra and She-Ra and Castaspella as variants, with the natural understanding that hair and clothes will be sculpted. Those seem like the best candidates to start with (to me anyway). Particularly Angela seems like a natural for a second version, especially if they can reuse the wings. Of course getting any figures of her or the others would be ideal first. Not all chicken eggs hatch.

Originally Posted by Staff Of Ka

Well...Its no different to all the Illumina arguments. So why should we not be able to discuss it?

Its a valid point and there are those of us who are passionate. If we are not insulting anyone and not attacking anyone, why is our viewpoint any less valid?

Why is Toy 'influenced' POP any different to all the people rallying for Fearless Photog or Illumina?

Now back on Topic. Bravo DO4M Thankyou so much for that awesome post! You pointed out something that I had somehow forgotten and I really appreciate it!

The term action figure was coined by Kenner in the 70's to make it ok to sell Dolls to boys! Ive always known that and Im actually surprised that I had forgotten that when reading TGs post!

Thankyou.

I think you'll find plenty of Illumina fans feel the way you do and aren't asking for a double standard.

All arguments here are valid but repeating the same thing over and over just becomes jaded..I appreciate your dedication to POP toys but with a lot of design choices to pick from, you can't really please everybody.

It's negative because he keeps referencing dolls like it's a bad thing, when "too girly" wasn't supposed to be a problem in this line.

He's attempting to make it out like toy versions wouldn't fit in with MOTUC, and I have a big problem with that for all the reasons that I stated in my initial post on the matter. I'm not sure why some of you aren't holding Mattel accountable for their past statements with regard to toy versions in MOTUC? Even if some of you folks are bigger fans of Filmation looks, I would hope that we could all agree that it's not right for Mattel to lead on the toy fans for so many years.

And it's not just based on that one response.

To me I'm buying a collectible line based off of the Masters of the Universe vintage line a "boys" toyline, so not having "girl doll" designs in it makes sense.

So they've changed their minds or focus from a previous answer given in print, on the internet, or a quote at a convention/interveiw. This happens all the time in business, entertainmet, life, etc. Some people over analyze everything written or said, if it's not in a contract it can change.

Originally Posted by Tallstar

For almost 2 years Mattel led us to believe that POP characters in MOTUC would mainly draw from the vintage toys, only to have them drop that idea like a hot potato once they realized they could make them like the style guide.

Then they played-off the Swift Wind vote like folks were actually voting for Filmation Swift Wind instead of Royal Swift Wind.

Then they disregarded the fact that toy-based Star Sisters were the most popular through the years and went with versions that were barely discussed in the context of toys. That or they didn't bother reading the boards to make the determination. Insulting.

You've said yourself that the styleguide version is more popular. The Swiftwind is "white", and while it is in Filmation style, this is the style "most" would want (Not me necessarily, all white would have worked, but I'm not gonna get all worked up over it). And reading message boards? I'm guessing they do, but if Mattel wants to not follow the "majority" for a certain set of characters it's their property they can do what they want to - and I don't think they are trying to purposely make it fail. And insulted? Don't be.

Originally Posted by Tallstar

To top it off, they've kept hope alive this whole time by confirming that toy line POP is a real possibility in MOTUC, that A-List variants could be secondary POP characters, Fantastic Fashions could be used on the POP gals to create new concepts, too girly isn't a problem etc.

Now they're going back to the lame "they're dolls" argument?

Sorry, that's messing with fans' emotions.

While I totally understand that style guide is more popular (in most cases), they don't seem to care that there are true hardcore fans of the classic POP toy line that are feeling disregarded, hurt etc. by their comments/actions.

Ok In your own response you've said why they've decided to do styleguide version over toy. Really it's a toyline nothing to get "hurt" over, this is the 1st time in 20+ years (with the exception of 200X She-Ra) that POP has gotten any toys, yet people are never happy. I have been pretty happy (as have many others) with the POP figures we've been presented with and the direction Mattel has decided to go. Can't please everyone, Mattel is'nt out to make people mad, but to sell toys.

It's negative because he keeps referencing dolls like it's a bad thing, when "too girly" wasn't supposed to be a problem in this line.

He's attempting to make it out like toy versions wouldn't fit in with MOTUC, and I have a big problem with that for all the reasons that I stated in my initial post on the matter. I'm not sure why some of you aren't holding Mattel accountable for their past statements with regard to toy versions in MOTUC? Even if some of you folks are bigger fans of Filmation looks, I would hope that we could all agree that it's not right for Mattel to lead on the toy fans for so many years.

And it's not just based on that one response.

When you collectively look at the treatment that hardcore POP toy fans have been getting, history shows that we've been crapped on many times.

For almost 2 years Mattel led us to believe that POP characters in MOTUC would mainly draw from the vintage toys, only to have them drop that idea like a hot potato once they realized they could make them like the style guide.

Then they played-off the Swift Wind vote like folks were actually voting for Filmation Swift Wind instead of Royal Swift Wind.

Then they disregarded the fact that toy-based Star Sisters were the most popular through the years and went with versions that were barely discussed in the context of toys. That or they didn't bother reading the boards to make the determination. Insulting.

To top it off, they've kept hope alive this whole time by confirming that toy line POP is a real possibility in MOTUC, that A-List variants could be secondary POP characters, Fantastic Fashions could be used on the POP gals to create new concepts, too girly isn't a problem etc.

Now they're going back to the lame "they're dolls" argument?

Sorry, that's messing with fans' emotions.

While I totally understand that style guide is more popular (in most cases), they don't seem to care that there are true hardcore fans of the classic POP toy line that are feeling disregarded, hurt etc. by their comments/actions.

I think Mattel thinks that the toyline POP is some refresh option for down the road, much like 200X variants of characters. But right now, both options aren't a big issue for Mattel. They still have to deal with the "normal" looks for characters.

To be fair, we do have Bow and Bubble Power She-Ra with heavy vintage toy-design influence.

I like the combination style.

For example, I want Glimmer to have both Filmation and toy-design characteristics. Why? Because that combo creates a good fit in the line.
Bow is a great example, in my opinion, of a successful combination of Filmation and the toy.

To be fair, we do have Bow and Bubble Power She-Ra with heavy vintage toy-design influence.

I like the combination style.

For example, I want Glimmer to have both Filmation and toy-design characteristics. Why? Because that combo creates a good fit in the line.
Bow is a great example, in my opinion, of a successful combination of Filmation and the toy.

This is Masters of the Universe Classics, not Masters of the Universe and not Princess of Power. These figures are part of a WHOLE NEW line. If you're such a fan of vintage POP then collect them instead, same goes for vintage MOTU and NA. The point of the Classics is to update the characters into today's standard of figures. We need to accept this and realize that the figures will not be the same as they were in the 80's. And yes I know that the MOTU characters are closer to vintages figures then the POP characters. But that is because one was an action figure the other a doll, and they were not even in scale as each other.

I agree with those who feel that the vintage POPs were dolls, because they are. They had rooted hair and clothes you could change, and in the same regard I think of the vintage 12in GI Joes as dolls for boys. So my feelings have nothing to do with them being "girly" they are just different types of toys that don't blend with action figures.

What I meant by True PoP is something similar to Source Material. The toys would be THE Source Material for the character looks. Style Guides, Cartoon versions, etc. are alternate takes or redesigns. These are derivative looks. (which seem to be a no-no for the MOTU side, yet A-OK to do in the PoP side.)

Now with that said, I understand that Filmation is the more popular look, due to the cartoon helping to create a fanbase beyond the intended target... That reason seems reasonable enough for Mattel to use the Filmation looks for PoP.

On the other hand, Mattel's got the freaking 4 Horsemen... I bet that they COULD take the PoP toy designs, make them Badass and still have the Key elements from the PoP toys (Like the She-Ra example I posted earlier) Just look at BOW, BP She-Ra and Catra (While they're mostly Filmation based they still took some cues from the toys and they rock!)

If they can go out of their way for dials and buttons and other Vintage MOTU stuff, why can't they do the same for PoP? If taking the toy designs and badassifying them for MOTUC is too hard, then add some MORE toy elements to the Filmation looks... (enough to break the 80s exercise video look that many of the figured have)

Let's take Angella for example: Her Toy version is a bit too Girly while her Filmation version is Pretty Much a Glimmer Repaint... With wings: How about meeting halfway?
Using the Filmation look as a base, but using the Toy's chest design and a nod to her toy skirt (shorter to allow better leg movement and removable for those who want a more Filmationy look.)

FINALLY!! GLIMMER IS IN MY SHELF!! Crita is coming... Now I NEED SONGSTER! The Awesometastic Bard!

The point of the Classics is to update the characters into today's standard of figures.

I fully agree with this statement! Making figure designs based on the limitations of 80's animation does not fit today's standard of figures.

That's why I'm for 80's toy PoP translated into MOTUC or hybrids of Styleguide and 80's toy PoP, or a both look option (ala Queen Marlena).

Straight up Filmation/Jetlag design in MOTUC is absolutely not what MOTUC is about at all...whether that be MOTU, PoP or NA. MYP is detailed enough to fit into MOTUC, though (some characters have to be "toned down" a bit).

I also pretty much 100% agree with DO4M's above post.

Take part in Illumina Day! Let people know who she is and help get her in MOTUC.

I fully agree with this statement! Making figure designs based on the limitations of 80's animation does not fit today's standard of figures.

That's why I'm for 80's toy PoP translated into MOTUC or hybrids of Styleguide and 80's toy PoP, or a both look option (ala Queen Marlena).

Straight up Filmation/Jetlag design in MOTUC is absolutely not what MOTUC is about at all...whether that be MOTU, PoP or NA. MYP is detailed enough to fit into MOTUC, though (some characters have to be "toned down" a bit).

I also pretty much 100% agree with DO4M's above post.

I understand what you're saying but the elements some fans want included on the POP girls would never have been on the figures has they not been dolls. I think that's what TG is trying to say that the POP characters are first put in the "action figure machine" then the "classic machine." I think the point of including the POP girls into MOTUC is to make them finally after 25 years fit with the rest of the Masters universe, same with NA. The NA characters have to first be made into a vintage style figure and then updated. That is just the nature of MOTUC.

The crazy thing is, with Starla and Tallstar in particular, they could have easily been two-in-one figures that were 100% faithful to the toys and in-line with a more simplified style-guide/Filmation type of look. Had they given Tallstar removable pants, she would still have the basic 80s "aerobic" swimsuit outfit underneath. Had they taken a cue from She-Ra 2.0 and made Starla's sash/skirt combo removable, she too would have the swimsuit underneath, which is what she sported in the Filmation series. I mean, it's much harder for fans to sculpt removable pants for Tallstar then to just repaint her to look like the poster. And if some folks were worried about that particular outfit being too girly (shaking head), the 4H could just sculpt it like winding electrical conduit or sculpt circuitry into plastic strips.

I hate that Mattel sometimes acts like the toy outfits are somehow pushing things over the edge, when Marlena has a removable dress! I can't believe we're even having this conversation with them.

The thing is, with the Star Sisters, part of me thinks they may have actually been open to doing toy-based versions, otherwise, why ask Emiliano what to do on them? To me, that was the insulting part from their end, because I felt the topic was discussed enough times to where they should have had a clear idea what to do. It made it seem like they weren't paying attention to years worth of input.

P.S. I will get to some of your responses later in the morning.

Originally Posted by cbomb23

So they've changed their minds or focus from a previous answer given in print, on the internet, or a quote at a convention/interveiw. This happens all the time in business, entertainmet, life, etc. Some people over analyze everything written or said, if it's not in a contract it can change.

I completely disagree with this train of thought. There's a world of difference between making a change from something that was mentioned in a one-off comment and leading on the toy fans for 3 years with contradictory statements. (Both scenarios are unfortunate, but the latter is inexcusable.) I mean, one moment they respond as if the toy looks are no problem whatsoever, the next they're trying to rationalize why the toys don't fit in with MOTUC. It's enough. Mattel is a company that prides itself on acting responsibly, equal treatment etc., and right now some of the employees are not properly representing the company. Besides, it was Mattel who included the fans in the decision-making process from the start of the line. They've consistently asked for our input and even said that everyone at Mattel feels like the toy lines belong to the fans... It would look/be extremely foolish for them to now turn around, stomp their feet and say: "It's our toy line. We're doing whatever we want!"

Originally Posted by gbagok

Tallstar, I think the toy designs for PoP have a better chance of appearing at some point in the life of the MOTUC line than the 200X designs, if that is any comfort.

I really hope so, my friend. (not that I don't want 2002 fans to get their preferred versions too.)

I dunno. I'm just really aggravated with some of Mattel's commentary, especially as of late. On one hand they're saying they regretted some of their past decisions because it set a 'bad precedent', yet then they toss in a soft-headed-partially-rooted Megator head, extra 2002-influenced Fisto head etc.

Don't get me wrong, it's neat they included those things, but then it's like... don't sit there and give this speech about precedents. They have nobody else to "blame" but themselves if fans then continuously ask for those things.

Last edited by Tallstar; September 24, 2011 at 07:23am.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost

I personally hope all future POP figures are more like Bow and Bubble Power She-Ra than Adora, She-Ra V1.0 and (to a lesser extent) Catra.

Bow in particular seems to be a perfect blend of Filmation (or style guide), toy-design and some new design elements added to ensure that he blends well with all the other MOTUC figures. Even if Mattel prefers the Filmation colours, there's nothing wrong with adding design elements from the original toys. Sure, it will cost more to sculpt boots and gauntlets with added detail, but they can be shared between POP figures, just like the original parts were shared.

I'm split on this one. I loved my POP dolls when I was a kid, but I was always angered by the fact that they looked nothing like they did in the show. When we were first shown the photo of Catra I was bouncing off the ceiling with excitement because she looked like she belonged next to Hordak. I feel one of the reasons they've held off this long on releasing another POP A/B lister is due to fear of fan reaction. I'm also thinking they're really trying to calculate every move they make in trying to please everyone with POP. I'm not going to judge their overall handling of POP until they release one or two more figures.

You know, I really wish Mattel created a special 6-figure program for POP's 25th anniversary and used all those slots on updated versions of the toys... because it seems to be getting harder and harder to fit them in somewhere.

What I meant by True PoP is something similar to Source Material. The toys would be THE Source Material for the character looks. Style Guides, Cartoon versions, etc. are alternate takes or redesigns. These are derivative looks. (which seem to be a no-no for the MOTU side, yet A-OK to do in the PoP side.)

We've established that Filmation Came First for the original PoP characters (INCLUDING the Horde!), and that the toys were derivative of those?

We've established that Filmation Came First for the original PoP characters (INCLUDING the Horde!), and that the toys were derivative of those?

OK, I'll have to admit a mistake... yes, Filmation worked closely with Mattel for POP.
Now that I got that misunderstanding out of the way, let's continue.
If POP can get their filmation looks without any problem, why does MOTU need a different line in an "Animated style" to get their filmation looks?

FINALLY!! GLIMMER IS IN MY SHELF!! Crita is coming... Now I NEED SONGSTER! The Awesometastic Bard!