Sweeney is much more likely to lead off than Anderson.
I think one of those guys will only lead off if KW fails in the off-season though. He has to come up with a lead off hitter. This team really needs it.
Uribe will be replaced too.

Madvora

09-16-2006, 07:40 PM

Wait a second... you also have a rotation missing Garcia, but all the other same players on the team. We wouldn't be giving him away for free.
Also, there is no way KW will stand for coming back with the same bullpen.

You basically have the same team up there. No chance!

jabrch

09-16-2006, 07:41 PM

So you are saying KW won't acquire ANY new players? No new RPs? No new position players? No new bench?

NO WAY.

Myrtle72

09-16-2006, 07:41 PM

Wait a second... you also have a rotation missing Garcia, but all the other same players on the team. We wouldn't be givig him away for free.
Also, there is no way KW will stand for coming back with the same bullpen.

Yeah, our bullpen is going to undergo some serious changes after these past few weeks.

MVP

09-16-2006, 07:45 PM

I hope you're joking about Anderson batting lead off next year. Surely you can't be serious.

I think Uribe and Podsednik are definitely gone.

QCIASOXFAN

09-16-2006, 07:51 PM

There is no way in hell that Thome, Konerko, AJ and Crede are going to be hitting in a row next year.

sox1970

09-16-2006, 07:55 PM

There is no way in hell that Thome, Konerko, AJ and Crede are going to be hitting in a row next year.

Agreed. Don't kill the messenger here, but I think we have new left side of the infield next year.

I also see the bullpen having Thornton, MacDougal, and Jenks, but after that it's up for grabs.

CWSpalehoseCWS

09-16-2006, 07:59 PM

I'll be surprised if the following guys are with the team next year:
- Cotts
- Uribe
- Garcia
- Riske
- Podsednik

That's very little change from where we are now. Win or lose, and especially if we lose, I think KW will overhaul about one-third of the roster.

ondafarm

09-16-2006, 09:05 PM

Hopefully we upgrade those in bold. I can't imagine going into 2007 with that lineup/bullpen.

Hey, there is no way we are getting an upgrade for Ondafarm

ondafarm

09-16-2006, 09:07 PM

I hope you're joking about Anderson batting lead off next year. Surely you can't be serious.

I think Uribe and Podsednik are definitely gone.

I am serious, and stop calling me Surely.

Lip Man 1

09-16-2006, 09:24 PM

Onda:

I would be very shocked if Uribe is with the club. Ditto for Posednik, Garcia, Alomar, Cintron, Logan, and two guys currently in the bullpen.

Williams is going to turn over a third of this roster that means eight or nine guys.

Frankly if that's the 2007 team I think the club is in serious trouble.

Lip

A. Cavatica

09-16-2006, 10:24 PM

Judging from KW's history, expect to see some more ex-Twins on the team.

Koskie? Hunter?

caulfield12

09-16-2006, 10:28 PM

Hunter's going to get more than $10 million somewhere else based on his nearly 30 homers.

He's lost a step or two. The real question is whether he can ever be CLOSE to the player he was defensively...and that would take an entire offseason and preseason to determine, and the Sox don't have that luxury.

Besides the fact that he's a high strikeout, non-Small Ball player. He would fit in, but not for the right reasons...it's not going to happen, unless Ozzie REALLY doesn't want BA on the team next year.

Koskie wouldn't have a position, unless we were replacing Crede with him.

JB98

09-16-2006, 10:29 PM

Judging from KW's history, expect to see some more ex-Twins on the team.

Koskie? Hunter?

Hunter's price will be too high. He'd be a nice addition, but I think there will be a bidding war for his services. Some club will overpay. Hopefully, not the Sox.

Koskie? We don't need a 3B.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 10:31 PM

right now, i'd just like to change the person who makes up the lineup... unless he plays mack some more in cf, then he can stay..:tongue:

RP: Jenks, McDougal, Thornton, Haeger (change of pace), Gil Meche, Jeff Suppan (instead of going the LOOGY route, KW invests in former starters who can get lefties and righties out and therefore can throw multiple innings and also can make spot starts in the event of injuries, all sort of in the mold of the pre-2005 Hermanson signing.)

Reserve Players: Ozuna, Mackowiak, Cintron, Chris Stewart

* Trade of $26 million in payroll (Konerko, Uribe and Garcia) frees up money for extensions for Crede, Dye, Buehrle and Young, and deals for Meche and Suppan.

RP: Jenks, McDougal, Thornton, Haeger (change of pace), Gil Meche, Jeff Suppan (instead of going the LOOGY route, KW invests in former starters who can get lefties and righties out and therefore can throw multiple innings and also can make spot starts in the event of injuries, all sort of in the mold of the pre-2005 Hermanson signing.)

Reserve Players: Ozuna, Mackowiak, Cintron, Chris Stewart

* Trade of $26 million in payroll (Konerko, Uribe and Garcia) frees up money for extensions for Crede, Dye, Buehrle and Young, and deals for Meche and Suppan.

* Cotts, Riske, Pods all available in trades for prospects.

Konerko, Garcia AND Uribe for Michael Young? Seriously? Young is a fine ballplayer, but c'mon....

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 10:52 PM

Konerko, Garcia AND Uribe for Michael Young? Seriously? Young is a fine ballplayer, but c'mon....
i would do that deal in a heartbeat, if they would throw in a relatively high level prospect... you lose a bunch of payroll, and drop one of the slowest men in baseball.... by the way, who says jimmy can't play first base, i guarantee you it isn't him.

Konerko, Garcia AND Uribe for Michael Young? Seriously? Young is a fine ballplayer, but c'mon....

The main reason to trade Garcia is to clear his contract off the books and make way for the cheaper McCarthy, giving you money to spend elsewhere.

Of course, this is predicated on the idea the Rangers would accept Uribe as their starting SS. He would arguably be able to start on about 5-7 other clubs.

Garcia is an Angels killer, and the Rangers need TONS of pitching, as usual.

I'm not 100% convinced we could trade Garcia during the offseason and not have to eat some of his contract. However, with his 1-hitter and fastball showing signs of life (92 now on occasion), it might be possible.

But I don't think we can trade Konerko (what are the terms of his deal?) and he would be the DH in Texas, and he doesn't do well in that role.

Uribe, I think, would be making more than Young (just for one more year), so it would be an incredible swap for one year but not so great long-term IMO.

It would also be dangerous to start Sweeney, Anderson and Fields in the same line-up and expect to get back to the playoffs, based on the track record of almost every position prospect we've had for the last 5-7 years (after Maggs and C-Lee).

JB98

09-16-2006, 10:58 PM

i would do that deal in a heartbeat, if they would throw in a relatively high level prospect... you lose a bunch of payroll, and drop one of the slowest men in baseball.

Konerko for Young would be a fair deal. All-Star for All-Star. But I'm not going to give up Konerko plus Garcia's 200 innings for a defensive downgrade at shortstop.

ondafarm

09-16-2006, 10:59 PM

Onda:

I would be very shocked if Uribe is with the club. Ditto for Posednik, Garcia, Alomar, Cintron, Logan, and two guys currently in the bullpen.

Williams is going to turn over a third of this roster that means eight or nine guys.

Frankly if that's the 2007 team I think the club is in serious trouble.

Lip

Lip:
actually, I was kinda hoping other people would make their speculations as to the opening day roster here. Trashing mine does seem easier.

My weaknesses would seem to be:

a) Alomar, at back-up catcher. Sandy will stay with the organization, but I actually think he will retire. I have no idea who will replace him.

b) lead-off, I think Anderson will take to batting lead-off and will learn significant skills in winter ball. I really think Ozzie not playing him regularly is his way of motivating BA to work hard at lead-off and base-stealing skills.

Places we agree:
a) Pods. My standards for a good lead-off hitter are .300+ BA .400+ OBP and 20 SB. Pods isn't close and if I had to name one big change from last year to this on offense, it's him.

b) Garcia, he's the weakest link in the rotation and McCarthy will replace him.

Major disagreements:
a) Uribe, I think he'll still be with the Sox. I see three options at SS. 1) Uribe stays on as starter
2) Cintron shifts over to starter with Uribe as backup
3) trade for a proven SS. (I still see Cintron as the likely backup.)
The third is the most expensive and I just don't see it.
b) Cintron, see above
c) Logan, I think the Sox will need him as the #2 lefty out of the pen. The because is because, the Sox will try to convert Thornton or Cotts into a starter and will need Logan.
d) rebuilding the bullpen, if the Sox have a more consistent rotation (and I predict we will) then these guys will be fine.

Frater Perdurabo

09-16-2006, 11:00 PM

Konerko, Garcia AND Uribe for Michael Young? Seriously? Young is a fine ballplayer, but c'mon....

It's like the Carlos Lee deal. Yes, the Sox give up more talent, but the resultant $26 million of departing payroll would allow the Sox to upgrade elsewhere and lock up the rest of their core.

Young would match Konerko's offensive production (fewer homers but better average, more doubles, better speed and fewer GIDPs) and do so at the top of the order, where the Sox need more help. A Fields/Gload platoon would produce better numbers in virtually all categories (other than strikeouts) than Uribe. Fields alone, in a part-time role, would steal more bases than Uribe does playing full-time.

Defensively, Gload/Fields would be equal to (or perhaps slightly better than) Paulie. Young would be equal to Uribe in the field.

Overall, it gives the Sox more speed, which is what Ozzie wants, without sacrificing much power, as many of the balls that Young hits for doubles would go for homers at the Cell.

The Sox defense would be better, as Sweeney is better than Pods in left, Young is equal to Uribe, and Gload/Fields would be equal to, or a slight improvement over, PK. Better defense would benefit the pitchers.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 11:02 PM

Konerko for Young would be a fair deal. All-Star for All-Star. But I'm not going to give up Konerko plus Garcia's 200 innings for a defensive downgrade at shortstop.
garcia is gone, if we can dump his contract, we are looking for someone to take it off our hands, believe that. along with the fact he couldn't hold on a 90 year old from stealing, i say good riddance.... nice game tho on thursday, that was fun.

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:02 PM

The main reason to trade Garcia is to clear his contract off the books and make way for the cheaper McCarthy, giving you money to spend elsewhere.

Of course, this is predicated on the idea the Rangers would accept Uribe as their starting SS. He would arguably be able to start on about 5-7 other clubs.

Garcia is an Angels killer, and the Rangers need TONS of pitching, as usual.

I'm not 100% convinced we could trade Garcia during the offseason and not have to eat some of his contract. However, with his 1-hitter and fastball showing signs of life (92 now on occasion), it might be possible.

But I don't think we can trade Konerko (what are the terms of his deal?) and he would be the DH in Texas, and he doesn't do well in that role.

Uribe, I think, would be making more than Young (just for one more year), so it would be an incredible swap for one year but not so great long-term IMO.

It would also be dangerous to start Sweeney, Anderson and Fields in the same line-up and expect to get back to the playoffs, based on the track record of almost every position prospect we've had for the last 5-7 years (after Maggs and C-Lee).

I'm not against trading Garcia. But if we're going to trade him plus Konerko and Uribe, we better be getting more than just one bonafide big-leaguer in return. Young is an All-Star, no question, but so is Konerko. It's a completely unfair trade.

Lip Man 1

09-16-2006, 11:02 PM

Onda:

I started a detailed thread on this point about ten days ago where I listed the folks I thought Kenny would at least consider moving. There have also been two other recent threads along the same lines.

Lip

Lip Man 1

09-16-2006, 11:04 PM

Frater:

To many 'can't miss kids' in your projected lineup. Unless you are the Minnesota Twins it's a lot to expect not one (Anderson), not two (Fields) but three (Sweeney) green kids to step right in and produce at a level that keeps you in contention in the toughest division in MLB.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo

09-16-2006, 11:05 PM

a defensive downgrade at shortstop.

When Uribe hustles, he's better defensively than Young.

But when he hot dogs or plays lazily, Uribe is worse than Young.

The problem is knowing which Uribe will show up on a given day.

Young hustles on every single play and always sacrifices himself for the good of the team. He's also unbelievably clutch and has a Rowand-like work ethic.

Maybe this is another time when we have to agree to disagree, my friend.

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:05 PM

It's like the Carlos Lee deal. Yes, the Sox give up more talent, but the resultant $26 million of departing payroll would allow the Sox to upgrade elsewhere and lock up the rest of their core.

Young would match Konerko's offensive production (fewer homers but better average, more doubles, better speed and fewer GIDPs) and do so at the top of the order, where the Sox need more help. A Fields/Gload platoon would produce better numbers in virtually all categories (other than strikeouts) than Uribe. Fields alone, in a part-time role, would steal more bases than Uribe does playing full-time.

Defensively, Gload/Fields would be equal to (or perhaps slightly better than) Paulie. Young would be equal to Uribe in the field.

Overall, it gives the Sox more speed, which is what Ozzie wants, without sacrificing much power, as many of the balls that Young hits for doubles would go for homers at the Cell.

The Sox defense would be better, as Sweeney is better than Pods in left, Young is equal to Uribe, and Gload/Fields would be equal to, or a slight improvement over, PK. Better defense would benefit the pitchers.

We got two big-leaguers (Pods and Viz) in exchange for CLee. You're advocating trading three big-leaguers for one. Pass.

JRIG

09-16-2006, 11:05 PM

It's 100% Joe's decision.

Just like Konerko, Jon G. and Jose Contreras.

Actually, it's 100% KW's decision. Crede is arb eligible through 2008, so if KW wants him back, Crede will be here.

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:06 PM

When Uribe hustles, he's better defensively than Young.

But when he hot dogs or plays lazily, Uribe is worse than Young.

The problem is knowing which Uribe will show up on a given day.

Young hustles on every single play and always sacrifices himself for the good of the team. He's also unbelievably clutch and has a Rowand-like work ethic.

Maybe this is another time when we have to agree to disagree, my friend.

I'm not against acquiring Young. I'd love to get him. The overall package is superior to Uribe. But you're willing to part with WAY too much.

Frater Perdurabo

09-16-2006, 11:06 PM

It's a completely unfair trade.

You're forgetting the net $22.5 million in payroll savings.

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:07 PM

Frater:

To many 'can't miss kids' in your projected lineup. Unless you are the Minnesota Twins it's a lot to expect not one (Anderson), not two (Fields) but three (Sweeney) green kids to step right in and produce at a level that keeps you in contention in the toughest division in MLB.

Lip

Not to mention Ross Gload. If he's going to get more time at first base, our bench just got considerably weaker.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 11:07 PM

I'm not against acquiring Young. I'd love to get him. The overall package is superior to Uribe. But you're willing to part with WAY too much.
incorrect, for reasons explained above by a few people.

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:07 PM

You're forgetting the net $22.5 million in payroll savings.

Our ballpark is full this season. Money is no longer an issue for the Sox.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 11:09 PM

the only reason thome isn't playing more first base is because it's paulies, jim can still play first base, and i bet alot of money if you asked him, he'd say the same thing, but jim is the consumate team player.

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:10 PM

incorrect, for reasons explained above by a few people.

Yet another case of Sox fans undervaluing their own players and overvaluing those on other teams. Very common affliction on WSI.

Myrtle72

09-16-2006, 11:10 PM

Not to mention Ross Gload. If he's going to get more time at first base, our bench just got considerably weaker.

I am one of the biggest Ross Gload fans you will meet. Seriously. He's great.

But he's not that great. I think he's an excellent bench player, if not one of the best I've ever seen. But he's a clutch player, not a starter. I don't think he'd do quite as well if he were playing consistently. I honestly think Gload is driven because he doesn't get to play every day and he wants to shine when he does get to play. I hope he stays where he is, that's where we need him the most.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 11:11 PM

Our ballpark is full this season. Money is no longer an issue for the Sox.
payroll savings, doesn't mean savings literally, it frees money to do other things..... at least that's how i took it.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 11:11 PM

I am one of the biggest Ross Gload fans you will meet. Seriously. He's great.

But he's not that great. I think he's an excellent bench player, if not one of the best I've ever seen. But he's a clutch player, not a starter. I don't think he'd do quite as well if he were playing consistently. I honestly think Gload is driven because he doesn't get to play every day and he wants to shine when he does get to play. I hope he stays where he is, that's where we need him the most.
TRUE

Myrtle72

09-16-2006, 11:12 PM

Our ballpark is full this season. Money is no longer an issue for the Sox.

Money is always an issue, even if the park is full.

Frater Perdurabo

09-16-2006, 11:13 PM

Frater:

To many 'can't miss kids' in your projected lineup. Unless you are the Minnesota Twins it's a lot to expect not one (Anderson), not two (Fields) but three (Sweeney) green kids to step right in and produce at a level that keeps you in contention in the toughest division in MLB.

Lip

Of course it is contingent upon Anderson being able to learn how to bunt for hits and learn to steal bases during Winter Ball.

But $22.5 million in payroll savings sure would fill a lot of holes, yes?

Sweeney, Anderson and Dye would be the best defensive outfield in the majors. A run saved is as good as a run scored, yes? The infield defense would be just as solid, too. (More consistent at shortstop, equal or better at first.)

Sweeny, Anderson, Fields, Young and Iguchi all can steal bases. That's more speed from more players than the Sox have now. While none is as fast as Pods, it does give the Sox more speed throughout the lineup, which is what Ozzie wants, and means that the Sox can steal even when their leadoff hitter is not on base.

Speed and defense don't slump, even from rookies. Isn't pitching, speed and defense what you (and I) want?

Of course, if the Sox could take some of that $23.5 million saved and land Ichiro as you have advocated, I'd be overjoyed.

I am one of the biggest Ross Gload fans you will meet. Seriously. He's great.

But he's not that great. I think he's an excellent bench player, if not one of the best I've ever seen. But he's a clutch player, not a starter. I don't think he'd do quite as well if he were playing consistently. I honestly think Gload is driven because he doesn't get to play every day and he wants to shine when he does get to play. I hope he stays where he is, that's where we need him the most.

Bingo. If you trade Konerko, do you really want to take Gload out of the niche that he excels at?

I'm not trading Konerko unless I get pitching in return. I want two big-leaguers. NOT prospects. The GIDPK people underestimate how many teams out there would like to have Konerko hitting in the middle of their lineup.

This team needs pitching MORE than it needs a new shortstop. If you're going to trade a guy who has as much value as Konerko, you better address your biggest need. Our biggest need is pitching, specifically the bullpen.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 11:16 PM

Bingo. If you trade Konerko, do you really want to take Gload out of the niche that he excels at?

I'm not trading Konerko unless I get pitching in return. I want two big-leaguers. NOT prospects. The GIDPK people underestimate how many teams out there would like to have Konerko hitting in the middle of their lineup.

This team needs pitching MORE than it needs a new shortstop. If you're going to trade a guy who has as much value as Konerko, you better address your biggest need. Our biggest need is pitching, specifically the bullpen.
WHO SAYS JIM THOME CAN'T PLAY FIRST BASE ?????????????? ozzie?

Lip Man 1

09-16-2006, 11:19 PM

Frater:

And where will that 22 million in saving go? What I mean is, is that if Fields and Sweeney struggle as much as say Anderson has done this season the money that goes to say fix the bullpen, is wasted because the Sox offense will be practically non existent.

I understand what you are saying about speed and defense and I agree completely, but most 'kids' aren't going to be able to give you the kind of production you need to stay compeditive.

They can take that 22 million and get good relaiable veteran players with track records who can run, hit the other way and catch the ball. That's money well spent.

Bingo. If you trade Konerko, do you really want to take Gload out of the niche that he excels at?

I'm not trading Konerko unless I get pitching in return. I want two big-leaguers. NOT prospects. The GIDPK people underestimate how many teams out there would like to have Konerko hitting in the middle of their lineup.

This team needs pitching MORE than it needs a new shortstop. If you're going to trade a guy who has as much value as Konerko, you better address your biggest need. Our biggest need is pitching, specifically the bullpen.

That's where Francisco Cordero would have been a great addition. They just wanted to get rid of him in Texas after he failed as closer, but he was very good for most of last season and was just a throw-in to the Lee deal.

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:22 PM

WHO SAYS JIM THOME CAN'T PLAY FIRST BASE ?????????????? ozzie?

Jim hasn't been able to stay healthy this year as a designated hitter.

And where will that 22 million in saving go? What I mean is, is that if Fields and Sweeney struggle as much as say Anderson has done this season the money that goes to say fix the bullpen, is wasted because the Sox offense will be practically non existent.

I understand what you are saying about speed and defense and I agree completely, but most 'kids' aren't going to be able to give you the kind of production you need to stay compeditive.

They can take that 22 million and get good relaiable veteran players with track records who can run, hit the other way and catch the ball. That's money well spent.

And I don't see any of those players being much more than 10-15 stolen base guys in their careers at this level.

They're good athletes, yes, but that's different from what Pods brought to the table.

To get that, we need to go after someone like Chone Figgins who is coming off a so-so season, a Dave Roberts....or we really need to ante up the talent traded to get a Crawford or Jimmy Rollins impact type of player.

Vizquel would be okay, but he's not the long-term solution.

It really looks like we have one or maybe two more years with this current team and then KW is going to have to blow it up and rebuild/reload.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 11:24 PM

Jim hasn't been able to stay healthy this year as a designated hitter.
a pulled hammy, constitutes not being able to stay healthy?, and he won't be pulling hammies playing 1st base.... it's running the bases.... he is a much better firstbaseman than frank ever was, and we put up with him for years over there.

Frater Perdurabo

09-16-2006, 11:25 PM

I'm not trading Konerko unless I get pitching in return. I want two big-leaguers. NOT prospects. The GIDPK people underestimate how many teams out there would like to have Konerko hitting in the middle of their lineup.

That's what I'm counting on. The Sox could not get Young, who is signed very cheap and is extremely good and improving, without trading at least ONE of the following players:

Buehrle
Konerko
Crede

With Young, the Sox would have no need for Uribe. In addition to demanding MLB starting pitching, the Rangers would need a shortstop. The Rangers wouldn't trade Young straight up for Konerko, either. Of course, if I'm KW, I start out by offering PK for Young. When Jon Daniels gets done laughing, then I start to sweeten the pot. Of course, if I'm KW, I hope I can get one of the Rangers' prized ptiching prospects like John Danks or Thomas Diamond.

Finally, you still aren't addressing what $22.5 million per year could get the Sox. Lots of cash, plus prospects, could be the beginnings of a deal for Ichiro.

Frater Perdurabo

09-16-2006, 11:28 PM

And where will that 22 million in saving go?

How about Ichiro? :D:

How do you feel about an admittedly deeppink lineup of Ichiro-Young-Dye-Thome-Crede-AJ-Iguchi-Gload-Anderson?

EDIT: Konerko, Uribe and Garcia to Rangers for Young and Danks.

$10 million cash, McCarthy, Danks, Sweeney and Fields to the Mariners for Ichiro.

Sign Gil Meche or Jeff Suppan as the #5 starter.

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:29 PM

a pulled hammy, constitutes not being able to stay healthy?, and he won't be pulling hammies playing 1st base.... it's running the bases.... he is a much better firstbaseman than frank ever was, and we put up with him for years over there.

Jim also has a chronically bad back, and he has issues with his wrist. I'm not worried about Jim's defense. I'm worried about his health. It's quite a reach to say his body can withstand the pounding of 140 games at 1B at this stage of his career. And if you put him at 1B, who is the DH? Gload? Might as well put Ross at 1B.

buehrle4cy05

09-16-2006, 11:30 PM

You're forgetting the net $22.5 million in payroll savings.

Which precisely is the reason Texas won't accept the deal unless we pay at least half of that money.

SOXandILLINI

09-16-2006, 11:32 PM

Jim also has a chronically bad back, and he has issues with his wrist. I'm not worried about Jim's defense. I'm worried about his health. It's quite a reach to say his body can withstand the pounding of 140 games at 1B at this stage of his career. And if you put him at 1B, who is the DH? Gload? Might as well put Ross at 1B.
it's a fair concern, i guess, but i'm worried about a 29 year old with a chronic bad back too, injuries may or may not happen, that's luck and baseball in general. credes back concerns the hell out of me, and i say this as one with a chronic bad back and frequent back spasms.

caulfield12

09-16-2006, 11:34 PM

Which precisely is the reason Texas won't accept the deal unless we pay at least half of that money.

I think it would be tough for Hicks to take on that much salary, especially since they're still paying $10 million to A-Rod.

They have to decide whether to bid on Carlos Lee or waste that trade.

Young is the favorite player on the franchise, just like Konerko arguably is in Chicago. It would be a huge PR risk.

With Blalock and Texeira and Young, they need to decide to keep them to build around or blow it all up and go all out to get the pitching they need, both bullpen and starting pitchers.

Garcia's the type of pitcher a team that needs one more guy to put you over the top goes after...but I don't see the Rangers in that position. He would be a 2/3 guy there, when he's closer to a 4/5 guy now with his decrease in velocity. $10 million is way too much for a back of the rotation starter.

Lip Man 1

09-16-2006, 11:34 PM

Caulfield:

At this point I'd be very satisfied with three guys in the lineup (four if you count Anderson) who can steal 15 bases each. I'd be very satisfied with that especially considering what the team has right now.

The Sox don't need one guy who can steal sixty bases and the rest squat. They need some balance in the lineup, three or four guys who can run like the Sox of the 50's (Minoso, Fox, Aparicio, Landis)...the Sox of the 60's, (Buford, Weis, McCraw) and the Sox of the 90's...(Johnson, Raines, Guillen (before the injury), Cora and for a time Sax).

Lip

JB98

09-16-2006, 11:35 PM

That's what I'm counting on. The Sox could not get Young, who is signed very cheap and is extremely good and improving, without trading at least ONE of the following players:

Buehrle
Konerko
Crede

With Young, the Sox would have no need for Uribe. In addition to demanding MLB starting pitching, the Rangers would need a shortstop. The Rangers wouldn't trade Young straight up for Konerko, either. Of course, if I'm KW, I start out by offering PK for Young. When Jon Daniels gets done laughing, then I start to sweeten the pot. Of course, if I'm KW, I hope I can get one of the Rangers' prized ptiching prospects like John Danks or Thomas Diamond.

Finally, you still aren't addressing what $22.5 million per year could get the Sox. Lots of cash, plus prospects, could be the beginnings of a deal for Ichiro.

If the Rangers demand starting pitching plus Konerko, they can kiss my ass.

Corlose 15

09-16-2006, 11:36 PM

Anyone know where you can find mlb contract statuses? I'd give my left nut for Ichiro to be on this team next year. Could you imagine a Anderson, Ichiro, Dye outfield? Any ball hit in the air wouldn't know the meaning of the word grass. :D:

Thats just something I threw together, feel free to rip it apart.:smile: I will say however that under no circumstances to I want Thornton to enter the rotation. The Sox have the potential to have a 3 headed monster at the back end of their bullpen for years to come and I like to see them keep in intact. Also, Fields may be up simply for insurance for Crede.

caulfield12

09-16-2006, 11:49 PM

Caulfield:

At this point I'd be very satisfied with three guys in the lineup (four if you count Anderson) who can steal 15 bases each. I'd be very satisfied with that especially considering what the team has right now.

The Sox don't need one guy who can steal sixty bases and the rest squat. They need some balance in the lineup, three or four guys who can run like the Sox of the 50's (Minoso, Fox, Aparicio, Landis)...the Sox of the 60's, (Buford, Weis, McCraw) and the Sox of the 90's...(Johnson, Raines, Guillen (before the injury), Cora and for a time Sax).

Lip

I guess if you throw in Iguchi and Dye, to go along with Ryan, Brian and Josh/Ross, we would be able to pull that off.

We can't be the D-Rays or Angels, but the key is to have those players who can score from first on a double, who can bunt, make contact, advance runners...the Twins have a plethora in Tyner, Punto, Bartlett, Castillo and Lew Ford to a lesser extent.

Esssentially, the Twins have a very similar line-up to ours (Mauer/Cuddyer/Morneau/Hunter) in terms of the power. They just have more overall speed and the ability to execute that we demonstrated so well last season.

And they have that nasty bullpen that's only lost one game when leading going into the 8th inning.

ondafarm

09-16-2006, 11:49 PM

Caulfield:

At this point I'd be very satisfied with three guys in the lineup (four if you count Anderson) who can steal 15 bases each. I'd be very satisfied with that especially considering what the team has right now.

The Sox don't need one guy who can steal sixty bases and the rest squat. They need some balance in the lineup, three or four guys who can run like the Sox of the 50's (Minoso, Fox, Aparicio, Landis)...the Sox of the 60's, (Buford, Weis, McCraw) and the Sox of the 90's...(Johnson, Raines, Guillen (before the injury), Cora and for a time Sax).

Lip

Here I agree with you completely. Good speed teams tend to have three or four twenty steal guys, as well as a designated pinch runner who can add another ten to twelve. A sixty steal guy is a luxury.

Hitmen77

09-17-2006, 12:24 AM

It's 100% Joe's decision.

Just like Konerko, Jon G. and Jose Contreras.

Crede doesn't become a free agent until after the 2008 season. Barring injury, I think he's pretty much guaranteed to be back for 2007. If they can't agree to an extension for him, then look for the Sox to trade him after the 2007 season.

BanditJimmy

09-17-2006, 12:29 AM

I read the initial post and laughed to see that all of the replacements are within the organization.

This is not Kenny William folks......he will make a splash and get real name players in here.

Last year was a case where we over-acheived with the lack of talent we had and this year we way under-acheived with what we had.

beckett21

09-17-2006, 12:54 AM

How about Ichiro? :D:

How do you feel about an admittedly deeppink lineup of Ichiro-Young-Dye-Thome-Crede-AJ-Iguchi-Gload-Anderson?

EDIT: Konerko, Uribe and Garcia to Rangers for Young and Danks.

$10 million cash, McCarthy, Danks, Sweeney and Fields to the Mariners for Ichiro.

Sign Gil Meche or Jeff Suppan as the #5 starter.

While I appreciate your 'thinking outside the box', seriously you are proposing to give up way too much in these hypothetical trades.

I love Young. It would be a coup to have him on our team. But not at the expense of arguably our top power hitter and an above-average, MLB-tested, workhorse SP. I don't care about the salary savings; it would be hard to replace the holes created by the loss of Konerko and Garcia.

Especially when you turn around and deal McCarthy along with 3 other top prospects for Ichiro. Suppan is worthless. Meche is marginal at best. I'd shudder to have to rely on either one of those guys in a regular starting role. Besides that, the Mariners are most certainly going to want major-league talent in return for Ichiro, assuming they would even consider moving him which I seriously doubt.

With all due respect, no way. We'd be giving up way too much, and I'm usually all for trading prospects for proven talent. ( I feel like Tragg now:smile:).

So how did we get to this lineup? Salary wise this team looks expensive however in these projections I figure 46.1 million will be off the books. Those names off the books would be Garcia, Contreras, Hermanson, Iguchi, Nelson, Pods, Politte, Riske, Uribe, Vazquez plus the Buy out of Thomas and Everett. Out of that 46 million Soriano I think would cost 4 yrs/ 64 million (16 per), to get Tejada I think it would cost Vazquez,Uribe and Garcia plus 4 million (Juan's salary). So thats 32 of the 46 leaving you with 14 to play with from this years salary. Contreras, Pods and to sweeten the deal Fields for Ervin Santana, Chone Figgins and Dallas Mcpherson. Dallas was a highly thought of prospect with whom Anaheim has sort of given up on, Figgins can be had and is a wash with Pods the gem of the deal is Santana. Young and cheap however has shown some slight inconsistencies. This is where Fields helps Anaheim make the deal. This would add 3 million leaving us with 11. I take a chance on Mulder (as long as there is no Tommy John surgery) and I don't think 7 million would be a problem because of his struggles since leaving Oakland. Hopefully the combination of Cooper and coming home rejuvinates him, if not Broadway or Liotta could be ready come 2008. With this roster we are about 4 million beneath this years salary. Add on additional revenue from this season and it should allow you to resign Joe and Mark long term. Platoon Brian and Sweeney in CF in preparation of Sweeney taking over for Dye in 08. On the whole you maintain speed, add power improves defense gets younger and is pretty much set for 08 as well. Our bullpen may be a little unproven however considering the crap we have out there right now it can't be worse.

JB98

09-17-2006, 01:12 AM

While I appreciate your 'thinking outside the box', seriously you are proposing to give up way too much in these hypothetical trades.

I love Young. It would be a coup to have him on our team. But not at the expense of arguably our top power hitter and an above-average, MLB-tested, workhorse SP. I don't care about the salary savings; it would be hard to replace the holes created by the loss of Konerko and Garcia.

Especially when you turn around and deal McCarthy along with 3 other top prospects for Ichiro. Suppan is worthless. Meche is marginal at best. I'd shudder to have to rely on either one of those guys in a regular starting role. Besides that, the Mariners are most certainly going to want major-league talent in return for Ichiro, assuming they would even consider moving him which I seriously doubt.

With all due respect, no way. We'd be giving up way too much, and I'm usually all for trading prospects for proven talent. ( I feel like Tragg now:smile:).

I'm glad someone else in the world agrees with me that Konerko, Garcia and Uribe is too heavy a price tag for Young.

Michael Young is a good player. But he's the third or fourth-best SS in the American League. You shouldn't give up three proven major-league players in a deal for one unless you're getting a superstar. Young just isn't that great.

beckett21

09-17-2006, 01:15 AM

I'm glad someone else in the world agrees with me that Konerko, Garcia and Uribe is too heavy a price tag for Young.

Michael Young is a good player. But he's the third or fourth-best SS in the American League. You shouldn't give up three proven major-league players in a deal for one unless you're getting a superstar. Young just isn't that great.

Garcia and Uribe, maybe. But to throw in Konerko too? No way.

Besides, Texas has no use for Konerko. Where's he going to play?

I'm really hesitant to move any of our SP's; McCarthy has given me cause for concern in the second half. I know that inevitably the Sox will have to move one of them, but like it or not the SP is still the strength of this team. McCarthy has still not proven enough to me.

getonbckthr

09-17-2006, 01:19 AM

Garcia and Uribe, maybe. But to throw in Konerko too? No way.

Besides, Texas has no use for Konerko. Where's he going to play?

I'm really hesitant to move any of our SP's; McCarthy has given me cause for concern in the second half. I know that inevitably the Sox will have to move one of them, but like it or not the SP is still the strength of this team. McCarthy has still not proven enough to me.
This is correct however Kenny views Mccarthy like the Cubs view Prior and previously Wood, as an untouchable who can't be had and will start whether he has earned it or not, AKA Christitis.

JB98

09-17-2006, 01:26 AM

Garcia and Uribe, maybe. But to throw in Konerko too? No way.

Besides, Texas has no use for Konerko. Where's he going to play?

I'm really hesitant to move any of our SP's; McCarthy has given me cause for concern in the second half. I know that inevitably the Sox will have to move one of them, but like it or not the SP is still the strength of this team. McCarthy has still not proven enough to me.

I think the Konerko-haters are well entrenched here. They would give away Paulie for Odalis Perez if they could under the guise of "saving money."

I'd like to see some new blood in the rotation next year. We have a couple of high-mileage arms that I'm concerned about. Not the least of which is Mark Buerhle. Garcia is still the most likely candidate to be moved, and I agree that McCarthy's move to the rotation is inevitable.

One point I'd make about Brandon: As a reliever, you don't have much of an opportunity to work out your problems. As a starter, you have a bad first inning; you go back out there and have a chance to settle down. As a reliever, you have a bad first inning, and the game is over. I don't think McCarthy has ever made the adjustment to relieving, regardless of what is being said publicly. IMO, he will perform better as a starter.

beckett21

09-17-2006, 01:27 AM

This is correct however Kenny views Mccarthy like the Cubs view Prior and previously Wood, as an untouchable who can't be had and will start whether he has earned it or not, AKA Christitis.

I'm sure that someone will be moved in the offseason to make room in the rotation for him. My guess is Freddy.

For as much crap as Freddy takes around here, the guy is a horse. Same with Vazquez, though I know many disagree.

JB98

09-17-2006, 01:29 AM

I'm sure that someone will be moved in the offseason to make room in the rotation for him. My guess is Freddy.

For as much crap as Freddy takes around here, the guy is a horse. Same with Vazquez, though I know many disagree.

Here's the thing, though: Do you think McCarthy could give us the roughly the same thing Vazquez has this year? If so, we're better off with Brandon in the rotation because he makes $11 million less per year.

beckett21

09-17-2006, 01:31 AM

I think the Konerko-haters are well entrenched here. They would give away Paulie for Odalis Perez if they could under the guise of "saving money."

I'd like to see some new blood in the rotation next year. We have a couple of high-mileage arms that I'm concerned about. Not the least of which is Mark Buerhle. Garcia is still the most likely candidate to be moved, and I agree that McCarthy's move to the rotation is inevitable.

One point I'd make about Brandon: As a reliever, you don't have much of an opportunity to work out your problems. As a starter, you have a bad first inning; you go back out there and have a chance to settle down. As a reliever, you have a bad first inning, and the game is over. I don't think McCarthy has ever made the adjustment to relieving, regardless of what is being said publicly. IMO, he will perform better as a starter.

I agree Brandon would probably do much better in a more structured starting role. The preparation would be entirely different, and his mindset seems to be that of a starter. He has spit the bit as a reliever.

Buehrle worries me too. On the whole though, while the starters have underachieved this season they have picked it up when it counts most. Unfortunately, the bullpen and offense didn't get the same memo.

I'd be content with the same starting 5 going into next season, but I know that McCarthy's time has come. It will be interesting to see what they are able to get in return for one of the starters.

Here's the thing, though: Do you think McCarthy could give us the roughly the same thing Vazquez has this year? If so, we're better off with Brandon in the rotation because he makes $11 million less per year.

I've been a Vazquez guy from day 1, and I know that you are not exactly a FOJV, so we probably won't agree on this one. :redneck

My answer is maybe. Maybe he could. I think that Vazquez underachieved in the first half, and he has been very good for the past two months or so. My expectations were higher for Vazquez than what his overall numbers have shown, so maybe I was expecting too much.

Javy has not been the problem of late though. Brandon and his bullpen mates have been. But there again, I agree that McCarthy is better suited to be a starter if for no other reason than from a mental standpoint.

JB98

09-17-2006, 02:22 AM

I've been a Vazquez guy from day 1, and I know that you are not exactly a FOJV, so we probably won't agree on this one. :redneck

My answer is maybe. Maybe he could. I think that Vazquez underachieved in the first half, and he has been very good for the past two months or so. My expectations were higher for Vazquez than what his overall numbers have shown, so maybe I was expecting too much.

Javy has not been the problem of late though. Brandon and his bullpen mates have been. But there again, I agree that McCarthy is better suited to be a starter if for no other reason than from a mental standpoint.

I think Javy has given us about what I expected. He's great at times. Other times, he's brutal and frustrating to watch. At the end of the day, his numbers average out to being, well, average. That would be fine if he was making $3-5 million a year. Unfortunately, he makes $11.5 million.

Personally, I think we can get the same numbers we get out of Vazquez out of McCarthy for a lot less money. Maybe I'm right; maybe I'm wrong. In September of 2007, we'll probably know.

Corlose 15

09-17-2006, 02:31 AM

I think you guys are mostly right about Vazquez. He was horse**** for June and July but the last two months have me intrigued about his potential. If he's actually gotten over his 6th inning mental block then I think he's worth sticking around because he could be damn good. Yeah, its potential but its a much higher potential than Suppan, Meche, or whatever POS the Sox could pull up from the system. In order to make him worth it though he has to improve quite a bit, he needs to get June and July in line with what all his other months have been, and under 4.0 ERA.

As for McCarthy, he's had a rough month or so but I think he'll fare much better in the roation with a regular schedule. He didn't adjust well to a reliever role thats easy to see. Let him finally get his chance in the rotation.

ShoelessJoeS

09-17-2006, 04:57 AM

I think Javy has given us about what I expected. He's great at times. Other times, he's brutal and frustrating to watch. At the end of the day, his numbers average out to being, well, average. That would be fine if he was making $3-5 million a year. Unfortunately, he makes $11.5 million.

Personally, I think we can get the same numbers we get out of Vazquez out of McCarthy for a lot less money. Maybe I'm right; maybe I'm wrong. In September of 2007, we'll probably know.Javy has been outstanding lately, and since he and Garcia are set to make almost the same next year, I think Vazquez will be the one to stay around (Freddy leaving via trade).

CAREY33

09-17-2006, 06:04 AM

How the hell does this post come about ? Seriously, I will talk with you all about the 2007 lineup once 2006 is officialy over. Last time I checked we still have 3 games with Detroit and 3 games with Minnesota. We are the World Champions. Why don't you idiots act like it ?

If they had this their starting staff would have to consist of:
Buehlre
McCarthy
Arnie Munoz
Felix Diaz
CHarlie Haegar

Craig Grebeck

09-17-2006, 10:28 AM

Clark
Iguchi
Thome
Dye
Konerko
Crede
A.J.
Stephen Drew
Anderson

Trade Buehrle, Cotts to the D-Backs for Stephen Drew.

Phillips to Brewers for Clark

ondafarm

09-17-2006, 10:59 AM

McCarthy will be in the rotation next year. The biggest trade the Sox will make will be one of their current starting pitchers (Garcia or Vazquez) in order to make room for him.

McCarthy has had a tough year in relief, but will be fine as a starter. It's just an entirely different mindset and he never adjusted to the new role.

The Sox need a new lead-off hitter and a new left-fielder and could use an upgrade at shortstop.

socko82

09-17-2006, 11:05 AM

Mathews Jr -CF
Young -SS (for Garcia/Uribe/Anderson)
Dye- RF
Thome- DH
Konerko- 1B
Crede - 3B
Iguchi-2B
AJ-C
Coco Crisp- LF (from what I'ver read the Red Sox are not happy with him and
he's their '06 version of Renteria, anyone willing to take his contract can probably get him for a level 2 prospect)

Rotation- Buerhle, Contreras, Garland, McCarthy, Vazquez

Bullpen- Jenks, Thornton, McDougal, Cotts and ????

Bench- Cintron, Ozuna, Sweeny, Gload, and a cheap defensive catcher

Whitesox4ever

09-17-2006, 11:07 AM

ARE YOU NUTS!?

There is no way the Sox will haev Matthews, Young, and Hunter!

They are not the Yankees all of the sudden

If they had this their starting staff would have to consist of:
Buehlre
McCarthy
Arnie Munoz
Felix Diaz
CHarlie Haegar

Young is only going to make a little over 3 million next year.
Hunter money will come from when the Sox trade Garcia.
Matthews money will come from when the Sox get rid of Uribe, and Pods

I think Gagne is probably done, but if he could come cheap enough (doubtful) he would be an interesting guy to take a flyer in a "we'll pay you for rehab and maybe you'll come back and help midseason" thing.

caulfield12

09-17-2006, 11:44 AM

I think Gagne is probably done, but if he could come cheap enough (doubtful) he would be an interesting guy to take a flyer in a "we'll pay you for rehab and maybe you'll come back and help midseason" thing.

You could put Mark Mulder in that same category, although everyone has him going back to Oakland on a Frank Thomas/incentive-laden contract.

If everyone remembers, Cal Eldred in the first half of 2000 was one of the surprising reasons we got off to such a good start that year. He was a similar risk, although much more under the radar than rehabbing Mulder would be....but Mark's from Chicago, and everyone speculated about flipping Buehrle for Mulder over the last couple of years.

Flight #24

09-17-2006, 12:04 PM

FWIW, Konerko is a 5 & 10 guy, so he's likely not going anywhere unless it's SoCal. He took a slight discount to stay (reportedly) I don't think KW would deal him now and I don't think he'd want to go - especially to Texas/Baltimore.

More to the point, KW ain't dealing the guy he & Ozzie just anointed as the franchise player & team captain. You can make lots of arguments for how that could be good, etc - but it ain't happening.

Couple of things IMO that will guide the lineup for '07:
- Dye will bat 3d, providing a but more speed than the "traditional" Thome-Konerko 3-4.
- Pods & Uribe will be gone as will one of the SPs
- KW will be trying to add some youth to the team, per his comments that he doesn't want to be in position where the team is "aging" too much.
- He'll be focused on adding pitching depth, both starting and relief (even though that's a bit inconsistent with dealing Freddy/Javy).

FWIW, Konerko is a 5 & 10 guy, so he's likely not going anywhere unless it's SoCal. He took a slight discount to stay (reportedly) I don't think KW would deal him now and I don't think he'd want to go - especially to Texas/Baltimore.

More to the point, KW ain't dealing the guy he & Ozzie just anointed as the franchise player & team captain. You can make lots of arguments for how that could be good, etc - but it ain't happening.

Couple of things IMO that will guide the lineup for '07:
- Dye will bat 3d, providing a but more speed than the "traditional" Thome-Konerko 3-4.
- Pods & Uribe will be gone as will one of the SPs
- KW will be trying to add some youth to the team, per his comments that he doesn't want to be in position where the team is "aging" too much.
- He'll be focused on adding pitching depth, both starting and relief (even though that's a bit inconsistent with dealing Freddy/Javy).

I pretty much agree with everything there, but I would totally focus on the bullpen. In retrospect, the five good starters thing is a little overrated. The 05 staff was an anomaly in the way they consistently pitched into the 7th and beyond. The 06 rotation, with better talent, was unable to pitch as deep into games and our mediocre bullpen was exposed, costing us too many games. I mean, you only need 4 starters in the playoffs.

Just look at the Twins. Do they have five big names in their rotation? No, they have one and they're beating us. Even at their peak health, they only had three, but their bullpen keeps them in games while their offense knows how to get the critical runs that they late in the game.

Beautox

09-17-2006, 12:32 PM

Gary Matthews Jr. = Tom Goodwin circa 1998, the guy is having a career year, i want no part of that on the white sox, and hes 32.

Same goes for Soriano hes playing in an incredibly weak NL, and he gets caught stealing nearly 50% of the time, thats not good anyway you slice it, i will give him cudos for hitting all those HR at RFK, but the sox should look elsewhere and the money could be better spent.

If i was KW here are the offseason moves i would make, I would be about retooling not rebuilding, keep the future in sight but i wouldn't let the present slip away either.

Deal Garcia to the NL speifically the Padres we would get Cesar Carrillo (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Cesar%20Carrillo&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=460044)(out with elbow injury this year should be ready by mid '07 much like our very own Lance Broadway (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Lance%20Broadway&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=473560)) and Chase Headley (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Chase%20Headley&pos=3B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=452104) for the likes of Garcia, if they gave up Kottaras (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=George%20Kottaras&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435459)(#2 spec) for 1 1/2 month of David Wells, i don't think those two are out of the question for a full year of Garcia in the NL at a pitchers park with the possibility of his fastball coming back to life.

Deal Jose and Uribe to texas for Michael Young and RHP prospect Thomas Diamond (12-5, 4.24 ERA)"He led the Texas League with 145 strikeouts. He is still mainly a fastball pitcher(he can get it up to 97 but it sits in the mid 90s), but his changeup has improved considerably. He is still working on his breaking ball as opponents continue to foul off too many fastballs, resulting in high pitch counts. Diamond will be headed to the Instructional League." - T.R. Sullivan / MLB.com

Here is the reasoning: Jose has been one of the best pitchers for the past year, he is older and a health risk, his contract is below market value, and this offseason is a very weak FA class, The rangers have alot of players leaving via FA this offseason, Lee, Matthews, Padilla, Eaton and Wells and a few others if im not mistaken. With this weak FA class this offseason i believe someone like Jose could bring us alot back.

From texas's stand point this make sense because they are very high on SS Joaquin Arias (http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060907&content_id=1651080&vkey=news_tex&fext=.jsp&c_id=tex)(who they aquired in the a-rod trade) Juan would provide a platoon/stop gap he has a .3mil buy out for '08, I think both Arlington & Texas's hitting instructor Rudy Jaramillo would help Juan alot. Also recently Tom Hicks called out (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2576167) Young for not being "tough" among other things. KW has said he will puruse young, and we all know how KW is when he has someone in his sights.

Trade Scott Podsednik to any team for a midlevel spec

A quick recap for those following at home deal Garcia, Podsednik, Jose, Uribe

I would then re sign David Riske and i would sign FA Justin Speier (http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=133221)
Lock both MB and Crede up long term.

Between winterball and spring training Ryan Sweeney & Josh Fields fight it out for LF and the lead off posistion.

'07 25 roster
SP - Garland, MB, Vazquez, McCarthy, Haeger

Vazquez isn't going anywhere this offseason KW gave up way to much for him and lately hes coming around also his contract is very unfavorable and we would have to pay alot of it, unlike Jose hes young, and unlike Garcia he still has his "stuff".

As For Haeger into the rotation i know some people on this board may not like a Knuckle baller but when his pitch is on its Filthy, he has nothing more to prove at the milb level, he can get out ML hitters and AJP has shown that he can catch him effectivly, at the very least i think he could post a league avg ERA but with the chance for so much more. Plus hes young durable and will help save our BP even more and allow us to keep all our SP on a tight leash. Also if Haeger is struggling by the ASB both Broadway and Carillio will be ready.

I haven't seen enough from Haeger yet (he's been great once) to annoint him as that "bridge" reliever.

We're getting some money with Vazquez, although you can argue that paying him $9.5 million as the #4 starter next year is extreme...no different than paying Garcia the same for roughly the same results.

Just because relief work worked for Buehrle doesn't mean it was right for McCarthy...nor does it make it right for Broadway.

Arguments will be made that Brandon would have been much better off pitching 150 innings in Charlotte than 60% of that in the majors.

The amount of money being thrown at pitchers like Zito will be just as surprising as the contracts pitchers received last season...especially the closers and set-up guys.

The main difference is that Minnesota has both Jesse Crain AND Rincon from the right side to go with Nathan. In no way, shape or form would I put Haeger in the same category.

Reyes has been lights out, and you can argue the importance of Guerrier as well to this team, filling the role Grilli has with the Tigers.

But I don't think KW will be satisfied with Tracey/Broadway/Montero (etc.) as his last two relievers. He's going to go out and make this the strength of the club.

guillen4life13

09-17-2006, 02:38 PM

Here's what I think:

KW isn't going to get this team going without a good leadoff hitter. I mean a really good one. If you look at the Majors, these are the hitters that come to mind:

Carl Crawford
Ichiro

I'd be very happy with getting either player, but based on the intangibles, I think Crawford is both more realistic and a better idea. He's slated to make 4 million next year, and 5.25 in 2008.

The Rays would want a CF in return. I'd be fine giving up Anderson or Sweeney for Crawford. They just traded away Aubrey Huff also. They'll be wanting a slugger. Thome? Gload? And they'll probably want some money, but who knows how much.

So that takes away any priority on keeping Pods. Crawford plays LF, and either Sweeney or Anderson takes CF. Dye stays in RF.

On to Michael Young. I don't know how imperative it is for the Sox to get him, as Iguchi is an adequate 2 hitter, but I wouldn't complain if the deal was right.

So, to get Young, the Sox would need to trade Garcia and Uribe, and money. Tom Hicks has deep pockets, but he isn't too stupid to ask for some money here, though we'd be getting Young with hopes of signing him to a long term deal. Also, if KW was willing to even consider Tejada or Soriano this year, that's telling you that the Sox are still willing to pay a little bit.

I'm not the biggest Jim Thome fan. Even though he's a bona fide slugger, I don't like his homer or nothing, free swinging approach. He may be a great clubhouse character, but being that type of a hitter is not ideal for the team. Dye, Konerko and Crede are enough when it comes to sluggers. Thome is going to earn 14mil in 07 and 08. I don't think it's justified. I'd rather get rid of him and as much of his contract as possible to invest it into the pen. The Angels may be interested in Thome, giving them three top quality sluggers (Thome, Anderson, Vlad). They have Scott Shields, who we may be able to pry from them. Give them some money. Same applies to the Mariners, substituting Rafael Soriano for Shields. Both are, I believe, arb eligible, so I don't know the specifics on how to go about such a deal. Maybe the other team would sign and trade or something like that. Trade Thome and, say, 8mil (4mil per year left on his contract). The Sox find themselves with about 4mil saved to spend on the Rangers.

Bench:
Ozuna
Mackowiak
Cintron/Graffanino (FA after this season, and he's a fan favorite)
Miguel Olivo (free agent post 06, knows Guillen and the organization, and is good defensively).
Borchard (I know... but he won't demand much money and is a good option as a 4th of).

My Young hits 4th explanation:
Remember the Edgar/Olerud tandem? I could see this being similar, only Dye is faster than Edgar. Edgar was one of the best clutch hitters. Dye is becoming that. Young has 94 RBI right now. He obviously has the stuff to be a cleanup hitter. PK hitting 5th is where he's generally performed at his best.

I think it's fair to assume that production from CF will increase due to the maturation of Anderson, and Sweeney is already showing promise. I don't expect Fields to be great but I expect him to be adequate, plus if Joe Crede goes down with a back problem, Fields is right here to take his place and has already faced substantial ML pitching.

I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this and some things may be unrealistic, but this would be a great situation IMO.

RedHeadPaleHoser

09-17-2006, 02:38 PM

While I admit this thread is cool, to do the "what if's"....

I worry about next season when this one is over.
And it's not over yet.

caulfield12

09-17-2006, 02:56 PM

Here's what I think:

KW isn't going to get this team going without a good leadoff hitter. I mean a really good one. If you look at the Majors, these are the hitters that come to mind:

Carl Crawford
Ichiro

I'd be very happy with getting either player, but based on the intangibles, I think Crawford is both more realistic and a better idea. He's slated to make 4 million next year, and 5.25 in 2008.

The Rays would want a CF in return. I'd be fine giving up Anderson or Sweeney for Crawford. They just traded away Aubrey Huff also. They'll be wanting a slugger. Thome? Gload? And they'll probably want some money, but who knows how much.

So that takes away any priority on keeping Pods. Crawford plays LF, and either Sweeney or Anderson takes CF. Dye stays in RF.

On to Michael Young. I don't know how imperative it is for the Sox to get him, as Iguchi is an adequate 2 hitter, but I wouldn't complain if the deal was right.

So, to get Young, the Sox would need to trade Garcia and Uribe, and money. Tom Hicks has deep pockets, but he isn't too stupid to ask for some money here, though we'd be getting Young with hopes of signing him to a long term deal. Also, if KW was willing to even consider Tejada or Soriano this year, that's telling you that the Sox are still willing to pay a little bit.

I'm not the biggest Jim Thome fan. Even though he's a bona fide slugger, I don't like his homer or nothing, free swinging approach. He may be a great clubhouse character, but being that type of a hitter is not ideal for the team. Dye, Konerko and Crede are enough when it comes to sluggers. Thome is going to earn 14mil in 07 and 08. I don't think it's justified. I'd rather get rid of him and as much of his contract as possible to invest it into the pen. The Angels may be interested in Thome, giving them three top quality sluggers (Thome, Anderson, Vlad). They have Scott Shields, who we may be able to pry from them. Give them some money. Same applies to the Mariners, substituting Rafael Soriano for Shields. Both are, I believe, arb eligible, so I don't know the specifics on how to go about such a deal. Maybe the other team would sign and trade or something like that. Trade Thome and, say, 8mil (4mil per year left on his contract). The Sox find themselves with about 4mil saved to spend on the Rangers.

Bench:
Ozuna
Mackowiak
Cintron/Graffanino (FA after this season, and he's a fan favorite)
Miguel Olivo (free agent post 06, knows Guillen and the organization, and is good defensively).
Borchard (I know... but he won't demand much money and is a good option as a 4th of).

My Young hits 4th explanation:
Remember the Edgar/Olerud tandem? I could see this being similar, only Dye is faster than Edgar. Edgar was one of the best clutch hitters. Dye is becoming that. Young has 94 RBI right now. He obviously has the stuff to be a cleanup hitter. PK hitting 5th is where he's generally performed at his best.

I think it's fair to assume that production from CF will increase due to the maturation of Anderson, and Sweeney is already showing promise. I don't expect Fields to be great but I expect him to be adequate, plus if Joe Crede goes down with a back problem, Fields is right here to take his place and has already faced substantial ML pitching.

I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this and some things may be unrealistic, but this would be a great situation IMO.

As soon as you said Gload and "slugger" in the same sentence, I stopped reading.

It's going to take a lot more than Anderson or Sweeney to get Crawford.

Thome makes less than $10 million per season with the money we're getting from the Phillies to subsidize him. Trading Thome AND Sweeney/Anderson to get Crawford only creates more holes in this team, because Crawford wouldn't be a great CFer. And Crawford is not even a leadoff hitter...his OBP over his career is poor. Talk about Ichiro as a leadoff hitter and possibly acquisition, but I don't see Crawford being traded to us.

And I certainly don't see KW bringing Thome here to bring us a championship (home, really), then turning around and trading him to Siberia/Tampa Bay. There's no way he is going to get to the WS there. He would probably consider retiring before playing in the Trop.

That would drive away a lot of potential FA's who thought about signing with the Sox.

guillen4life13

09-17-2006, 04:02 PM

As soon as you said Gload and "slugger" in the same sentence, I stopped reading.

It's going to take a lot more than Anderson or Sweeney to get Crawford.

Thome makes less than $10 million per season with the money we're getting from the Phillies to subsidize him. Trading Thome AND Sweeney/Anderson to get Crawford only creates more holes in this team, because Crawford wouldn't be a great CFer. And Crawford is not even a leadoff hitter...his OBP over his career is poor. Talk about Ichiro as a leadoff hitter and possibly acquisition, but I don't see Crawford being traded to us.

And I certainly don't see KW bringing Thome here to bring us a championship (home, really), then turning around and trading him to Siberia/Tampa Bay. There's no way he is going to get to the WS there. He would probably consider retiring before playing in the Trop.

That would drive away a lot of potential FA's who thought about signing with the Sox.

Gload could in a pinch, be a crappy team like TB's slugger. What do they have that's better?

It would take one helluva lot for us to get Ichiro. We would grossly overpay also, considering how much revenue the Mariners get from him via the Japanese fans.

Gload could in a pinch, be a crappy team like TB's slugger. What do they have that's better?

It would take one helluva lot for us to get Ichiro. We would grossly overpay also, considering how much revenue the Mariners get from him via the Japanese fans.

Well, they have Baldelli, Crawford and Delmon Young, not to mention Cantu and Gomes. Those five are arguably better sluggers than Iguchi. Baldelli, you can argue one way or the other...I would like to see his numbers if he stayed healthy for a full season.

Brian26

09-18-2006, 12:45 AM

The Sox aren't getting Crawford this winter. He's signed to an affordable deal in Tampa.

KW should focus on two guys: Michael Young.... and Catalanotto from Toronto.

****ty lineup. The middle of the order is way too slow! Dye, Ortiz, Howard and Ramirez? Talk about station-to-station baseball! :smile:

I have no idea what the lineup will look like. Here are some things I do know (or at least would like to think I know :tongue: ):
- Brian Anderson will not be leading off for us on opening day next year. If he is, we're in trouble because KW's plan either failed miserably or he lost his mind.
- The roster will not look the same. KW turned over about 1/3 of the roster after we won the World Series. Does anyone really think he's going to stand pat after watching this team underachieve?
- If Ichiro asks to be traded, KW will make a strong play on Ichiro. Same for Michael Young and Crawford.

batmanZoSo

09-18-2006, 01:13 AM

I want Ichiro. Get him and put together the best bullpen you possibly can and let's roll.

ondafarm

09-18-2006, 01:26 AM

What!!!?? Still no tomato?

You say to-may-to, I say to-mat-o . . .

A spontaneous session of Morris dancing breaks out.

palehozenychicty

09-18-2006, 01:34 AM

Add Ichiro, a right handed reliever, and mix.............

OJAIsoxfan

09-18-2006, 10:37 AM

Alomar was brought back to replace Tim Raines in 2007. That's a no-brainer.
Forget Ichiro. Dream about Crawford and Young. But wholesale changes should not be made. Replacing Podsednik and underachieving relief pitchers are the major issues, including Cotts and Jenks.

Jjav829

09-18-2006, 10:53 AM

Alomar was brought back to replace Tim Raines in 2007. That's a no-brainer.
Forget Ichiro. Dream about Crawford and Young. But wholesale changes should not be made. Replacing Podsednik and underachieving relief pitchers are the major issues, including Cotts and Jenks.

Huh? How is replacing Jenks an issue? Jenks was dominant for us for most of the first 5 months. It's only recently that he's been pitching poorly, and that can likely to attributed to his hip problem.

And I still think people are being too quick to give up on Neal Cotts.

KW should focus on two guys: Michael Young.... and Catalanotto from Toronto.

i like that idea alot! and why are we trying to trade PK...i think he is essential to our clubhouse atmosphere, hes a son of a b*tch competitor i think thome is the one we should be tryin to trade....and why does everyone want to get rid of crede? everyone knows that if he leaves he will be the ALMVP (he has been MVP for AA and AAA teams) for another squad and I will be super mad

ondafarm

09-18-2006, 08:54 PM

I think a lot of people are over-estimating how much turnover KW will wreak on the lineup this off-season.

Last season, the Sox desperately needed more power and they went out and got it (Thome.) They wanted to get a more power pitcher and got him in Vazquez. They wanted to get an able replacement for Uribe and they got him in Cintron.

They did not expect Anderson to start as weakly as he did or Pods to really bomb as a lead-off guy. Several of their starting pitchers also showed uncharacteristicly weak seasons. This burned the bullpen. Ozzie also thought that the good bunting shown last year would continue this year. All of these should be fixed next year.

Pods is playing his last games in a Sox uniform. As is Garcia. Apart from that, I do not forsee major turnover in the lineup or pitching staff.

Trade just to trade is not how KW works. He has a longer term view than the average fan. Cotts has stunk this year, but he'll be fine next year, if the starting pitchers are able to throw more innings consistently. KW will not punish good players for a single poor season.

Changes:
1) replace Pods with a different lead-off guy.
options: external in trade for Garcia possible
internal if Anderson learns to bunt and steal bases in winter ball
2) replace Garcia with McCarthy in the rotation
3) improve on Uribe,
trade for a proven SS is expensive
platoon with Cintron seems more likely
4) replace Pods in LF
taken care of if KW trades for an OF
internal, Mack and Ozuna (and Sweeney)
5) replace McCarthy in the pen, hardly the most critical issue

Lip Man 1

09-18-2006, 11:15 PM

Onda:

Eight or nine potential new faces.

Kenny will be looking for a left fielder with speed, perhaps a center fielder with speed, a shortstop with speed, two or three new arms in the bullpen (if Riske isn't retained), a new back up catcher and with potentially some of the bench being traded in order to get the aformentioned left fielder or center fielder or shortstop, a few new subs.

Doesn't mean he's going to move them all but he'll try his dammdest.

Lip

ondafarm

09-18-2006, 11:29 PM

Lip,
I did forget, new backup catcher. New left-fielder, no new CF, unlikely on the new SS.

SABRSox

09-18-2006, 11:34 PM

We need a new lead-off hitter and somebody that can bat 2nd. Iguchi is really more of a 6 or 7 type hitter. Michael Young would solve that problem, and if it costs Garcia, I'd gladly pay.

Speedster to Replace Pods
Young
Dye
Thome
Konerko
Iguchi
Crede
AJ
BA

At least there is balance there. And the starting pitching can not possibly be any worse than this year.

I'd like to retain Riske, but we need a reliable long man in the pen.

And a decent backup catcher. Ideally, somebody that can throw out basestealers.

stacksedwards

09-19-2006, 03:01 PM

This pitching staff has been brutal for most of the season besides Big Jon and an occasional good game from the other four. My question is this, who do you have confidence in going into next season other than Jon Garland?
I really don't feel that good about any of the other four starters from this year for the following reason. As for the bullpen baring health issues Jenks seems to be the answer for a closer but who else do you feel confident in giving the ball to to either keep a lead or keep us within striking distance.

1) Mark B.- Hope this was just a bad year and he can get his form back but have a bad feeling that one of two things has happened to him. A) The American League has figured him out. B) Multiple years of 200+ innings pitched is getting to him.

2) Jose- Did he top off after the first half of this year. Was his magical second half and playoff run from last year all he had left in the tank? Can he stay healthy for a whole season? How old is he?

3) Freddy- Can he be consistant? Has he lost his velocity? Does he even care anymore?

4) Javier- Will he always be a mental midget who cracks like a plumers bottom at the first sign of pressure? It seems that everyone but him knows that he has nasty stuff.

Bullpen

Hermanson- can he ever give you more than half a season?
Logan- is he ready for the bigs and is he good enough?
David Riske- Does this guy intimidate any MLB hitter?
Mike Mac- seems to be solid but will he stay healthy?
Cotts- was 2005 a fluke or can he find it again?
Thorton- can he consistantly throw strikes and keep movement on his fastball?

I know every team has questions and concerns like this but watching the Sox day in and day out since after the all star break this team both offensively and defensively has been so painfully predictable to watch. 8-0 one night you could almost take it to the bank the next night we were loosing 5-1 or 6-2.

alohafri

09-19-2006, 03:07 PM

I keep Buehrle around and hope that he finds whatever he lost this year. If he doesn't, he gone.

Contreras is done. Better to trade a guy one year too soon than one year too late.

Garcia should go as should Vazquez. They haven't shown me much this year. Same with the bullpen.

That being said, I don't know if there are many quality pitchers available for either trade or via free agency.

I hope Paulie, Dye, Thome, Crede stay put. There are the heart of this team. Our pitching staff needs the most attention, but I wont pretend to have the right answers. I have no idea.

MrRoboto83

09-19-2006, 03:24 PM

Ross Gload and Pablo OZZZUNNAAA

Get Gloaded Baby!

Matt Thorton, Dye, AJ and MacDugal

I hope Gload is going nowhere.

0o0o0

09-19-2006, 03:25 PM

I think they're fine with the majority of the team they have now. Guys I'm not against parting with: Pods, Uribe, Alomar, Garcia, Hermanson, Cotts, Riske

CHISOXFAN13

09-19-2006, 03:27 PM

I keep Buehrle around and hope that he finds whatever he lost this year. If he doesn't, he gone.

Contreras is done. Better to trade a guy one year too soon than one year too late.

Garcia should go as should Vazquez. They haven't shown me much this year. Same with the bullpen.

That being said, I don't know if there are many quality pitchers available for either trade or via free agency.

Contreras is done?? :?: His stuff is still very good. In essence you want 3/5 of this rotation gone? Clamoring for the days of Danny Wright and Jason grilli again?

oeo

09-19-2006, 03:31 PM

This pitching staff has been brutal for most of the season besides Big Jon and an occasional good game from the other four. My question is this, who do you have confidence in going into next season other than Jon Garland?
I really don't feel that good about any of the other four starters from this year for the following reason. As for the bullpen baring health issues Jenks seems to be the answer for a closer but who else do you feel confident in giving the ball to to either keep a lead or keep us within striking distance.

1) Mark B.- Hope this was just a bad year and he can get his form back but have a bad feeling that one of two things has happened to him. A) The American League has figured him out. B) Multiple years of 200+ innings pitched is getting to him.

2) Jose- Did he top off after the first half of this year. Was his magical second half and playoff run from last year all he had left in the tank? Can he stay healthy for a whole season? How old is he?

3) Freddy- Can he be consistant? Has he lost his velocity? Does he even care anymore?

4) Javier- Will he always be a mental midget who cracks like a plumers bottom at the first sign of pressure? It seems that everyone but him knows that he has nasty stuff.

Bullpen

Hermanson- can he ever give you more than half a season?
Logan- is he ready for the bigs and is he good enough?
David Riske- Does this guy intimidate any MLB hitter?
Mike Mac- seems to be solid but will he stay healthy?
Cotts- was 2005 a fluke or can he find it again?
Thorton- can he consistantly throw strikes and keep movement on his fastball?

I know every team has questions and concerns like this but watching the Sox day in and day out since after the all star break this team both offensively and defensively has been so painfully predictable to watch. 8-0 one night you could almost take it to the bank the next night we were loosing 5-1 or 6-2.

The only guy out of the rotation...Freddy. Just because he's not a team guy and he's definately not as good as he once was. Javy is going to be good next year, Buehrle will be as well- I'd sign him now, while he's cheap, Contreras and Garland will be fine as well. Insert McCarthy into the rotation...if we end up trading him, I'd like to see them pick up another lefty (Bedard?).

In the bullpen, Jenks, Thornton, MacDougal, and maybe Cotts (I've got a feeling this has been a fluke season). Everyone else, adios.

alohafri

09-19-2006, 03:36 PM

Contreras is done?? :?: His stuff is still very good. In essence you want 3/5 of this rotation gone? Clamoring for the days of Danny Wright and Jason grilli again?

Who knows how old he actually is. As I said in my original post, where I was paraphrasing Branch Rickey, it is better to trade a pitcher a year too early than a year too late. 2008 could be a year too late.

stacksedwards

09-19-2006, 03:36 PM

I think one of the following four need to go Crede, Thome, Pauley, or JD.
I would say Thome because he is the oldest even though he is a left handed stick.
JD is the only one of these guys that can run even a little bit and I really don't want to loose Crede's glove at third. Unless we can get more pitching for cheep one of these guys has gotta go in a trade for some pitching. As this year and 2001 through 2004 showed us, you can't win with a lineup full of base clogging mashers.

Realistically, the Sox are going to move only 1 starting pitcher. (Maybe 2 if it's coupled with a FA signing of another starter - but i think that's unlikely). The problem is that all of our starters and McCarthy have been inconsistent at best this year. Even Garland, who's been outstanding since June looked horrible in April and May.

The concern I have with '07 is that the Sox will still be at the mercy of their starting pitchers all rebounding. Let's say they get rid of Garcia, that still leaves big question marks for most of the rotation. Will Buehrle rebound from a confoundingly bad 2nd half? Will Jose regain his dominance that's been missing since he went on the DL in May? Will Vazquez finally show some consistency? Which McCarthy will we see next year? The one from August-Sept. 2005 or the one from 2006?

There's certainly improvements that should be made to the lineup and bullpen. But, in the end our success next year again will hinge on our starting pitching - and we're simply stuck hoping these 4 guys will all turn things around next year.

Why exactly do we want to trade a guy who's apparently improving by leaps and bounds under the tutelage of Coop? Isn't this exactly what we should have expected? That just like Contreras of '05, it took a bit of time and possibly some hard lessons to get him on board with Coop's advice?

IMO it would be pretty dumb of the Sox to take the lumps for Vazquez learning curve and then deal him off at a discount when they start to bear fruit.

Garcia - I can see it. He's lost velocity, has admitted issues with focus, and is an FA after '07 anyway (Vazquez is only arb-eligible). But Javy's turned things around fairly well & is IMO a keeper (which is kind of what Kenny predicted).

This team doesn't need a significant restructuring. LF, SS, a couple of relief spots is all. Trade Garcia mainly to free up some $$$ and because you have McCarthy in the wings.

Why exactly do we want to trade a guy who's apparently improving by leaps and bounds under the tutelage of Coop? Isn't this exactly what we should have expected? That just like Contreras of '05, it took a bit of time and possibly some hard lessons to get him on board with Coop's advice?

IMO it would be pretty dumb of the Sox to take the lumps for Vazquez learning curve and then deal him off at a discount when they start to bear fruit.

Garcia - I can see it. He's lost velocity, has admitted issues with focus, and is an FA after '07 anyway (Vazquez is only arb-eligible). But Javy's turned things around fairly well & is IMO a keeper (which is kind of what Kenny predicted).

This team doesn't need a significant restructuring. LF, SS, a couple of relief spots is all. Trade Garcia mainly to free up some $$$ and because you have McCarthy in the wings.

I'd agree with the above. Moving Garcia to land both a SS and free up money, and then use that money for an impact LF, preferably one who can run and fill our lead-off hole.

What exactly is Podsednik's contract status? Is he arbitration eligible? For all the grief I've given him this year, he'd still make a great 4th OF if the price is right.

Why exactly do we want to trade a guy who's apparently improving by leaps and bounds under the tutelage of Coop? Isn't this exactly what we should have expected? That just like Contreras of '05, it took a bit of time and possibly some hard lessons to get him on board with Coop's advice?

IMO it would be pretty dumb of the Sox to take the lumps for Vazquez learning curve and then deal him off at a discount when they start to bear fruit.

Garcia - I can see it. He's lost velocity, has admitted issues with focus, and is an FA after '07 anyway (Vazquez is only arb-eligible). But Javy's turned things around fairly well & is IMO a keeper (which is kind of what Kenny predicted).

This team doesn't need a significant restructuring. LF, SS, a couple of relief spots is all. Trade Garcia mainly to free up some $$$ and because you have McCarthy in the wings.

I don't buy the notion that Vazquez is improving by leaps and bounds under Coop's tutelage. Javy is doing what he's done his whole career. He's a tease. He's streaky and inconsistent. It's easy to fall in love with him because he's immensely talented, but he's been in the league for several years and he is just a .500 pitcher. And he's a .500 pitcher who makes $12 million a year. The Sox aren't getting enough value for their money. There is a reason Javy has played for four organizations in four years.

None of this is anything I haven't stated before. There's no chance in hell I'm ever going to by the "Vazquez as the next Contreras" argument. It's not an apples-to-apples situation by any stretch of the imagination. Personally, I'm glad Javy is finishing up strong because it will afford KW the opportunity to sell high.

SoxShirt

09-19-2006, 05:51 PM

The seasons not even over and your lighting the stove already.
http://www.rimarkable.com/images/fatlady.jpg :?:

Flight #24

09-19-2006, 05:54 PM

I don't buy the notion that Vazquez is improving by leaps and bounds under Coop's tutelage. Javy is doing what he's done his whole career. He's a tease. He's streaky and inconsistent.

You've basically defined him out of any chance at actually improving. So there's no point in debating this further, we'll have to disagree.

JB98

09-19-2006, 05:59 PM

You've basically defined him out of any chance at actually improving. So there's no point in debating this further, we'll have to disagree.

Sounds that way. I'm just not expecting a nine-year veteran who has always won 12-14 games to suddenly become a 18-20-game winner.

DaleJRFan

09-19-2006, 05:59 PM

I'm in the minority (maybe I'm the only one) that could live with Buerhle being dealt. Reason being, if the Sox don't plan on retaining him after his option year, get something serious back for him other than a draft pick. His value is pretty low right now, but if there's a market for him this offseason, you'd have to consider it if you aren't going to sign him long term.

Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy and Contreras can stay. These guys are way better than anything that will be available otherwise unless Kazmir, Bedard or Willis become available. I seriously think that the rotation (as it stands now) needs the post season off to rest their arms, recharge, get their heads right and come back next year guns-a-blazin'. I would take my chances with the Sox 60 million dollar rotation again - if rested accordingly.

As for the bullpen, like everyone else, I would really like to see Thornton, MacDougal and Jenks retained for obvious reasons. Riske and Cotts are expendable as with the rest of the mid-season tryouts that occured this season.

As for offense and defense, I'll go with the obvious ones here: Crede, Dye, AJ, Konerko, Thome. Upgrade possibilities exist at SS, LF and CF. Keep Gload, Cintron, Mackowiak on the bench and add a right-handed batting 4th OF with speed (anyone got any ideas?).

Guys who are easily replacable: Iguchi, Uribe, Anderson, Podsednik, Widger/Alomar. I would only move Uribe or Iguchi if the move is an obvious improvement to the team on the field.

All this being said (or typed...), I could also live with the same team being brought back with a few tweeks. The bottom line is some guys underperformed, some bad managarial decisions were made, guys were brain dead, dead armed, whatever you want to say. But -- the must-do list includes adding a new lead-off hitter, adding a right-handed hitting forth outfielder, add some depth to the bullpen, make room for McCarthy in the rotation, and possibly find an upgrade at SS.

spiffie

09-19-2006, 06:02 PM

Sounds that way. I'm just not expecting a nine-year veteran who has always won 12-14 games to suddenly become a 18-20-game winner.
How could you look at the stellar job our pitching did this year and possibly doubt this?!

jabrch

09-19-2006, 06:16 PM

The majority of this team should stay. We need a few improvements in the pen. We could use an upgrade in LF and SS. But most of this team is pretty damn good.

JB98

09-19-2006, 06:59 PM

I'm in the minority (maybe I'm the only one) that could live with Buerhle being dealt. Reason being, if the Sox don't plan on retaining him after his option year, get something serious back for him other than a draft pick. His value is pretty low right now, but if there's a market for him this offseason, you'd have to consider it if you aren't going to sign him long term.

Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy and Contreras can stay. These guys are way better than anything that will be available otherwise unless Kazmir, Bedard or Willis become available. I seriously think that the rotation (as it stands now) needs the post season off to rest their arms, recharge, get their heads right and come back next year guns-a-blazin'. I would take my chances with the Sox 60 million dollar rotation again - if rested accordingly.

As for the bullpen, like everyone else, I would really like to see Thornton, MacDougal and Jenks retained for obvious reasons. Riske and Cotts are expendable as with the rest of the mid-season tryouts that occured this season.

As for offense and defense, I'll go with the obvious ones here: Crede, Dye, AJ, Konerko, Thome. Upgrade possibilities exist at SS, LF and CF. Keep Gload, Cintron, Mackowiak on the bench and add a right-handed batting 4th OF with speed (anyone got any ideas?).

Guys who are easily replacable: Iguchi, Uribe, Anderson, Podsednik, Widger/Alomar. I would only move Uribe or Iguchi if the move is an obvious improvement to the team on the field.

All this being said (or typed...), I could also live with the same team being brought back with a few tweeks. The bottom line is some guys underperformed, some bad managarial decisions were made, guys were brain dead, dead armed, whatever you want to say. But -- the must-do list includes adding a new lead-off hitter, adding a right-handed hitting forth outfielder, add some depth to the bullpen, make room for McCarthy in the rotation, and possibly find an upgrade at SS.

As much as I like Buerhle, I could also live with him being dealt. I don't think he should be actively shopped, but I no longer consider him to be an untouchable. KW must decide whether Mark's poor second half was an aberration, or the start of a career decline. Not an easy determination to make.

California Sox

09-19-2006, 07:10 PM

I don't buy the notion that Vazquez is improving by leaps and bounds under Coop's tutelage. Javy is doing what he's done his whole career. He's a tease. He's streaky and inconsistent. It's easy to fall in love with him because he's immensely talented, but he's been in the league for several years and he is just a .500 pitcher. And he's a .500 pitcher who makes $12 million a year. The Sox aren't getting enough value for their money. There is a reason Javy has played for four organizations in four years.

None of this is anything I haven't stated before. There's no chance in hell I'm ever going to by the "Vazquez as the next Contreras" argument. It's not an apples-to-apples situation by any stretch of the imagination. Personally, I'm glad Javy is finishing up strong because it will afford KW the opportunity to sell high.

Agreed. This guy is the ultimate poster child for the salary drive. Check out his career numbers. September is by far his best month (Half a run lower than any other month.) With the exception of this year's Sox team (and a Yankee team that had pulled him from the rotation) he has not been in contention in September, so it's not like he's been clutch.

I'm a Vazquez hater, it's true. Still, he'll have to show more consistency over a full season for me to jump on the bandwagon. If we could get anything close to Young, Vizcaino, and El Duque for him, I'd trade him in a heartbeat.

Zisk77

09-19-2006, 07:12 PM

Garcia needs to go while he still has value - velocity down, can't hold runners, questionable attitude/Character, and big salary. He will be replaced by McCarthy.

The rest of the rotation returns.

Speed needs to be added especially if Pods goes (age, salary, and injuries make this likely) to make room for Fields, Sweeney, Owens, Or Crawford (:smile: ).

Uribe stays unless we can get a significant offensive upgrade (Michael Young) or speed upgrade (Jimmy Rollins). Iguchi could also go instead if the deal is right.

I wouldn't give up on a young lefty talent like Cotts. But, he could be dealt in a package for a major upgrade. Example ... Cotts, Rosgowski, & Broadway for Carl Crawford.

While I'm playing Gm - Garcia & Uribe to Texas for Michael Young. Or Uribe, Pods, & Garcia to the Phils for Jimmy Rollins, Madsen, and a Philly Cheesesteak :tongue: .

Would be interesting if we could get a top flight leadoff hitter/basestealer and keep Pods and bat him 9th.

Moses_Scurry

09-19-2006, 07:50 PM

I think they're fine with the majority of the team they have now. Guys I'm not against parting with: Pods, Uribe, Alomar, Garcia, Hermanson, Cotts, Riske

This is almost exactly the same answer I would give. I think the starting rotation will improve over this year for the fact that they are not going to be pitching into november, so they'll have alot more recovery time, plus they won't have the world baseball classic to deal with. I'm pretty confident that the same 5 guys will fall somewhere between 2005 and 2006, which is good enough and certainly better than the rotation they will have if they get rid of everyone besides Garland.

They need to improve the bullpen very badly. I would not be angry at the departure of any members of the bullpen including Jenks. If they can get a good return on Bobby, I say do it. MacDougal could certainly handle the closer duties.

SoxxoS

09-19-2006, 07:55 PM

Keep Sandy

When I heard on the radio we reacquired him, I thought it was a joke. Ended up not being that funny.

monkeypants

09-19-2006, 09:05 PM

I'd love to hear what the plan would be by all the folks who want to get rid of 2 or 3 of our starters. You don't have to be a long time Sox fan to remember when we had Dan Wright as our 5th starter. I do not want to go back to those days.

I wouldn't be against getting rid of Garcia but other than that, the rest of our starters are staying. Garcia still has a good amount of value in a trade even though his velocity has dropped considerably. It would be very poor judgement to trade away 2 or 3 of our starters unless we are getting some starting pitching in return.

INSox56

09-19-2006, 09:18 PM

You know as much as I want to say Freddy should stay now, I just can't. He HAS developed this splitter over his last 3 starts...which, now, is 1 hitting the kittens and one of the main reasons his perfecto through 7 last start. But even if he continues being nasty...it simply makes me sick to watch a walk turn into a triple because he refuses to hold anyone/speed up his delivery, etc. No matter how good, that one baserunner can turn into a run by a simple sac fly.

A tad hijack here...anyone see the 'grinders' thing on espn tonight? Ryan Freel has been mentioned to take over in left.....he was on that show as one of the grinder players...I am REALLY liking the possibility of grabbing him up...

ondafarm

09-19-2006, 10:06 PM

A right-handed backup catcher with a good arm and not an automatic out (hits .230 or above.)

October26

09-19-2006, 10:10 PM

resign rowand! Sorry, I couldn't resist!

OG4LIFE

09-19-2006, 10:34 PM

I haven't read through the entire thread (at least not the last 2 pages), but here is who you can count on being gone for sure:

one of freddy or vasquez (multitude of reasons)
uribe (seems to have a feud with ozzie, strikes out a lot, no discipline, can't run)
pods (bad at baseball, if his OBP isn't .360+ and stealing 50+ bases, he's a fifth outfielder)
anderson (will likely not be with the big league team, has neither power nor speed)

possibly:

cotts
mccarthy? man has he been terrible lately

the good news is that the core of the team is excellent. this team just needs tweaking... flexibility on offense (be able to score 5 runs without a bomb or two) and more consistent results from starting pitchers and bullpen.

even better news is, with the talent listed above, KW can get everything that he thinks the sox need to get better for next year, and maybe even shed some salary.

im optimistic for 2007.

champagne030

09-19-2006, 10:47 PM

I think a lot of people are over-estimating how much turnover KW will wreak on the lineup this off-season.

Last season, the Sox desperately needed more power and they went out and got it (Thome.) They wanted to get a more power pitcher and got him in Vazquez. They wanted to get an able replacement for Uribe and they got him in Cintron.

They did not expect Anderson to start as weakly as he did or Pods to really bomb as a lead-off guy. Several of their starting pitchers also showed uncharacteristicly weak seasons. This burned the bullpen. Ozzie also thought that the good bunting shown last year would continue this year. All of these should be fixed next year.

Pods is playing his last games in a Sox uniform. As is Garcia. Apart from that, I do not forsee major turnover in the lineup or pitching staff.

Trade just to trade is not how KW works. He has a longer term view than the average fan. Cotts has stunk this year, but he'll be fine next year, if the starting pitchers are able to throw more innings consistently. KW will not punish good players for a single poor season.

Changes:
1) replace Pods with a different lead-off guy.
options: external in trade for Garcia possible
internal if Anderson learns to bunt and steal bases in winter ball
2) replace Garcia with McCarthy in the rotation
3) improve on Uribe,
trade for a proven SS is expensive
platoon with Cintron seems more likely
4) replace Pods in LF
taken care of if KW trades for an OF
internal, Mack and Ozuna (and Sweeney)
5) replace McCarthy in the pen, hardly the most critical issue

No way, no how does BA lead off next year. I WANT him as our CF, but he does not have the plate discipline or the stealing ability to be our lead-off guy. He's 6'2 and 220. I think he'll put up .280/25/85 in 2-3 years, but he's closer to Crede than a top of the order guy.

champagne030

09-19-2006, 10:49 PM

I haven't read through the entire thread (at least not the last 2 pages), but here is who you can count on being gone for sure:

anderson (will likely not be with the big league team, has neither power nor speed)

:?: He hasn't hit for much power this season, but his past suggests otherwise.

MadetoOrta

09-19-2006, 11:00 PM

i like that idea alot! and why are we trying to trade PK...i think he is essential to our clubhouse atmosphere, hes a son of a b*tch competitor i think thome is the one we should be tryin to trade....and why does everyone want to get rid of crede? everyone knows that if he leaves he will be the ALMVP (he has been MVP for AA and AAA teams) for another squad and I will be super mad

Rest easy. Crede's going nowhere. The fact that one of their top prospects [a 3d baseman no less] is headed to the winter leagues to play leftfield is a clear sign Crede's going nowhere.

I think there is a possibility the Sox may be able to land Gary Sheffield to play left. He is that injury-hit/veteran KW likes, and may be available since the Yankees have five OF's and FA Bernie Williams to sort through.

I see KW going after a lead off man, but I think he is going to shock us and go for a #9 hitter with speed too. I just have that feeling.

We also have to remember that for those thinking we are going to do one of those 'two bad contracts for one star' kind of trades, that will not happen. But I would be prepared for someone getting traded that we don't want to see get moved just to move another guy like Uribe, Thome, etc. that KW may be targeting to trade.

We shall see. But it is games like tonight that give me hope that we should wait until we are done for good before the hot stove heats up.

beckett21

09-19-2006, 11:06 PM

The majority of this team should stay. We need a few improvements in the pen. We could use an upgrade in LF and SS. But most of this team is pretty damn good.

Agree 100%.

I'd like to keep the starting rotation together, but I am realistic enough to know that is not going to happen with McCarthy waiting in the wings.

As much as it hurts me to say it, the guy I'm most concerned about on the staff is Buehrle. He's been so good for us for so long, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, if he can fetch the most in a trade, given his contract status I could see moving him.

Garland has become very reliable, and the other three guys underachieved this season. Contreras would make the most sense to deal because of his age, but he also has the potential to be the most dominating guy on the staff. Tough to trade him for that reason.

Bullpen, LF and SS could use an upgrade, in that order. It would also be nice if Anderson could handle CF for a full season. I believe he can.

I'm curious to see how Fields figures into the equation for next year and beyond. He looks like a keeper.

Myrtle72

09-19-2006, 11:12 PM

The majority of this team should stay. We need a few improvements in the pen. We could use an upgrade in LF and SS. But most of this team is pretty damn good.

I completely agree. And if we could get some speed in one of those two spots, that would be pretty sweet. I'd also really like to see an awesome SS... I think that would really complete our infield nicely.

caulfield12

09-19-2006, 11:37 PM

I think there is a possibility the Sox may be able to land Gary Sheffield to play left. He is that injury-hit/veteran KW likes, and may be available since the Yankees have five OF's and FA Bernie Williams to sort through.

I see KW going after a lead off man, but I think he is going to shock us and go for a #9 hitter with speed too. I just have that feeling.

We also have to remember that for those thinking we are going to do one of those 'two bad contracts for one star' kind of trades, that will not happen. But I would be prepared for someone getting traded that we don't want to see get moved just to move another guy like Uribe, Thome, etc. that KW may be targeting to trade.

We shall see. But it is games like tonight that give me hope that we should wait until we are done for good before the hot stove heats up.

Why would we be trading Thome?

We might as well trade AJ because he doesn't throw out opposing runners...just because our players are flawed does not mean that replacing AJ with a Miguel Olivo would make this team better (it would be faster and more opposing baserunners would be thrown out but I can pretty much guarantee our record would be worse for a number of reasons).

soxinem1

09-19-2006, 11:45 PM

Why would we be trading Thome?

We might as well trade AJ because he doesn't throw out opposing runners...just because our players are flawed does not mean that replacing AJ with a Miguel Olivo would make this team better (it would be faster and more opposing baserunners would be thrown out but I can pretty much guarantee our record would be worse for a number of reasons).

I think KW will be looking to break up the 'bags of cement' otherwise kown as Paulie, Thome, AJ, and Crede if he has to in order to aquire some fleet-of-footness. A DH is easy to replace versus three key defenders being replaced.

I agree to an extent about AJ, but it does not help having three of the worst starting picthers (four if you include Jenks among relievers) in the world when it comes to holding runners.

Mike LaValliere could steal off Jenks, Vasquez, Contreras, and Garcia. It's definitely not AJ's fault that the runners are 2/3 of the way down the line by the time they throw the ball. And besides, Olivo was not good when he was here at throwing out anyone.

ondafarm

09-19-2006, 11:50 PM

. . . anderson (will likely not be with the big league team, has neither power nor speed) . . .

No way. I'll bet anyone straight up right now that Anderson will be with the White Sox major league team when they break camp next spring.

INSox56

09-20-2006, 11:20 AM

I still say find a way to get Freel over here from CIN and figure out SS. That should be all of our changes. I REALLY don't like the idea of starting two very young players. I love the thought of starting Fields one of these days, but to have him and BA in the lineup at the same time gives me some real worries.

Hitmen77

09-20-2006, 12:33 PM

Pretty much a repeat of what alot of people already said, but here's who should be back:

LF - either acquire FA or go with Sweeney/Fields
SS - Make trade that includes Garcia, Pods and/or Uribe as part of a package deal for a starting SS and a servicable reliever.
Bench- Need a backup catcher. I like Gload, but I would also like more flexibility in having a good defensive OF off the bench.
Leadoff - Sox need somebody (either LF or SS) that can serve as a decent leadoff hitter)

Bullpen - Sox really need to fill a few holes here (either by trade or FA). I'm not confident that we have any minor leaguers that can step up to fill a bullpen hole. Cotts should be allowed to compete for a spot in spring training, but Sox should be prepared in case he still struggles. What is Riske's contract status? If he's still under contract and not making alot, keep him.

Hitmen77

09-20-2006, 12:43 PM

.... by the way, the part of next year's team that I'm least comfortable with is still the starting pitching. Trading Garcia or Vazquez and replacing him with McCarthy still leaves alot of question marks.

Garland has been our only consistent pitcher since June. I'm confident that the Sox can fill holes at LF, SS, and the bullpen. But, in the end, the fate of the 2007 team will rest on whether Buerhle, Contreras, McCarthy, and whoever we keep between Garcia/Vazquez all rebound from bad 2006 seasons.

Is that alot to hope for - that all four will turn things around? I don't think the Sox have much choice there expect to hope that happens.

Rooney4Prez56

09-20-2006, 12:44 PM

I think one of the following four need to go Crede, Thome, Pauley, or JD.
I would say Thome because he is the oldest even though he is a left handed stick.
JD is the only one of these guys that can run even a little bit and I really don't want to loose Crede's glove at third. Unless we can get more pitching for cheep one of these guys has gotta go in a trade for some pitching. As this year and 2001 through 2004 showed us, you can't win with a lineup full of base clogging mashers.

Are you serious????????

The only people I want gone for sure are Pods and Cotts. Maybe I'm hoping that everyone else's underachievements will cause them to come back next year with some revenge. I've wanted Pods gone since the All-Star Break. I wish they had traded him for a bullpen pitcher at the deadline. Uribe is on a short leash, but he is young and plays pretty good defense at SS. I don't get rid of any starters because there isn't much out there in the market to trade for. Everybody wants to get rid of Vasquez, but he has pitched remarkably the last month or two. Give most of the guys one more chance next year to turn it around. I still believe.

soxfanatlanta

09-20-2006, 12:57 PM

Guys who are easily replacable: Iguchi, Uribe, Anderson, Podsednik, Widger/Alomar. I would only move Uribe or Iguchi if the move is an obvious improvement to the team on the field.

You easily will replace Iguchi-san (.287/.357OBP 16Hr,66Rbi) with whom?

Lillian

09-20-2006, 01:14 PM

Are you serious????????

The only people I want gone for sure are Pods and Cotts. Maybe I'm hoping that everyone else's underachievements will cause them to come back next year with some revenge. I've wanted Pods gone since the All-Star Break. I wish they had traded him for a bullpen pitcher at the deadline. Uribe is on a short leash, but he is young and plays pretty good defense at SS. I don't get rid of any starters because there isn't much out there in the market to trade for. Everybody wants to get rid of Vasquez, but he has pitched remarkably the last month or two. Give most of the guys one more chance next year to turn it around. I still believe.

Now we're talkin'!! There really aren't a lot of holes on this team. Moreover, there may not be a lot better options available. The only players that I would like to see go, are those who may have attitude problems, or be considered clubhouse "cancers". We don't know who they might be, even if there are such players.

We have had the good fortune of having a healthy starting rotation for the last three years, but it is unrealistic to think that will continue. I agree that we should keep all of our starters. The only two I really wanted to trade were Garcia and Vasquez, but they both seem to have turned it around.
Freddy's new split finger pitch may be the real deal, and could only get better with experience. His fast ball is better now than it was a couple of months ago. He may be just fine next season. When is that last time we had any starter put together two consecutive starts like Freddy's?

Why not go into the season with our 5 starters, and McCarthy? If we don't need them all, we can always trade one of them at the deadline.

BigPapaPump

09-20-2006, 01:16 PM

I've been racking my brain as to who I would trade from our starting rotation.

Garcia=thats my final answer

If your not willing to check runners and are too stubborn to change then audios. You can take you 88mph fastball and splitty.(notice the double entendre):cool:

Palehose13

09-20-2006, 01:16 PM

No one! This whole team sucks. Get rid of all of them and start over!

Hangar18

09-20-2006, 01:29 PM

tough question ...........
but I'm going with Jermaine Dye to return

JB98

09-20-2006, 02:26 PM

You easily will replace Iguchi-san (.287/.357OBP 16Hr,66Rbi) with whom?

Marcus Giles will be the best second baseman who might be available via trade or free agency. I don't count Soriano because he's an outfielder now, and he should stay an outfielder.

I'll stick with Tadahito. I think he's every bit as valuable to this team as Crede. And that should be considered a compliment to Tadahito, not a cutdown of Joe.

OzzyTrain

09-20-2006, 02:47 PM

Everyone who said Garcia you better think hard and long about that after seeing the last two starts, he has learned a split finger pitch and is really looking good.

JB98

09-20-2006, 02:54 PM

Everyone who said Garcia you better think hard and long about that after seeing the last two starts, he has learned a split finger pitch and is really looking good.

I base my evaluation of Freddy on the entire season, not just two starts. I'm glad he is finishing strong. It will increase his value on the trade market.

I_Liked_Manuel

09-20-2006, 03:11 PM

garcia can put together a good effort when he wants to. next year is his contract year; he's going to be giving a good effort. hate the guy all you want, but he's still going to win 16 or 17 games this year. while not the ace that he used to be, he's still a very productive #3 starter behind garland and contreras.

JB98

09-20-2006, 03:14 PM

garcia can put together a good effort when he wants to. next year is his contract year; he's going to be giving a good effort. hate the guy all you want, but he's still going to win 16 or 17 games this year. while not the ace that he used to be, he's still a very productive #3 starter behind garland and contreras.

I'd much rather keep Garcia than Vazquez, if I have to keep one. But my preference is to trade both and get some new blood in this rotation.

BadBobbyJenks

09-20-2006, 03:14 PM

Im starting to think we should trade B_M_A_C and some prospects for a new left fielder and go with this rotation again, they have been hitting their stride the past 2 weeks, much to late I know, but still it looks promising

maurice

09-20-2006, 03:17 PM

For payroll reasons alone, I believe that Fingernails and BA will be starting next year. You may even see Sweeney or Fields in LF, if KW can substantially upgrade at SS.

aryzner

09-20-2006, 03:49 PM

If the Sox get rid of Joe Crede I will seriously cry.

ShoelessJoeS

09-20-2006, 04:16 PM

If the Sox get rid of Joe Crede I will seriously cry.I think Crede still has 2 years left of arbitration, is so, he won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

I think this is the first speculation I've seen that didn't include McCarthy on the roster.

eurotrash35

09-21-2006, 10:36 PM

so this is after we trade McCarthy for a bag of balls? :?:

eurotrash35

09-21-2006, 10:38 PM

worst lineup ever. 2 SS? I know it will be tough to make up for the huge theoretical loss of Uribe but let's not get carried away. And if Pablo is the best we can do for LF I might only be able to stomach watching a handful of games next year.

BiggestFan14

09-21-2006, 10:40 PM

How many of these are there going to be before the end of this season?

Garcia and Vazquez have been looking good lately. Does this make it more tempting for KW to hold on to both of them? Or does it just help us by increasing their trade value?

I'm confident in the Sox filling the obvious holes for next season (LF, SS, bullpen) - but there's only so much Kenny Williams can do. In the end, he just has to hope that our remaining starters (including B.Mac) turn things around and that the heart of our lineup doesn't lay an egg again during crunch time.

Domeshot17

09-22-2006, 01:08 AM

offseason moves

Sign Zito, Jaun Pierre

Trade Buehlre-Heager-Owens-Vazquez- to STL for Chris Carpenter and Anthony Reyes

he is 3rd in the majors in hits, 3rd in stolen bases, fourth in triples, HORRIBLE ADDITION. Get over the fact hes a cub. THE ONLY 2 KNOCKS ON HIM ARE

(1) he isnt very patient, no walks, so his OBP will only be about 30-40 points higher then his batting average. However, he doesnt K a lot either. only 38. Our Current lead off hitter is on pace for 100 Ks + a 2:1 K:BB (yes 2 k's for every walk). Pierre is atleast 1:1. That is the the baseball we want next year, put balls in play, move runners over, dont K with men on base, even if you ground out to get a run in, you get it in as opposed to striking out.

(2) Great glove and range but a major noodle arm, however with Brian or Sweeney in CF, no worse then pods

I admit, the Carpenter-Reyes is a pipedream, should have been deep pinked. However, I wouldnt FULLY rule it out, with the losses they will be taking to their rotation, the chance to add a number 1-2 and 3 starter as well as a future CF to replace the aging and ailing edmonds at the loss of a prospect and a number 1 might intrigue them.

Mike Young is said to be rubbin the Rangers GM the wrong way. They want him to be a vocal rah rah club house leader and that is not his personality. His inability to do that has put him on the hotseat, and he is very available. Uribe could replace him, or Arias, young prospect middle IF could as well, as Kinsler, who is the better fielder of the 2, would slide to short.

Zito makes sense with the mets and yankees saying they wont be active. IF his pricetag got sick (15 a year) i would shy away, but if he stays in the aj burnett range 5 years 60 mil ish I would jump all over it.

Besides if we deal Freddy, Garland is going to need someone to smoke up with

SOXSINCE'70

09-22-2006, 07:17 AM

So you are saying KW won't acquire ANY new players? No new RPs? No new position players? No new bench?

NO WAY.

Agreed.KW will make some changes,minor or major.
Count on it.

Soxworldchamps

09-22-2006, 07:39 AM

You know, the two pitchers everyone has been wanting to go- Garcia and Vazquez- are currently the best two pitchers on our staff.

Craig Grebeck

09-22-2006, 10:06 AM

Pierre would be ideal (and yes i apologize for my typo mr. x)

he is 3rd in the majors in hits, 3rd in stolen bases, fourth in triples, HORRIBLE ADDITION. Get over the fact hes a cub. THE ONLY 2 KNOCKS ON HIM ARE

(1) he isnt very patient, no walks, so his OBP will only be about 30-40 points higher then his batting average. However, he doesnt K a lot either. only 38. Our Current lead off hitter is on pace for 100 Ks + a 2:1 K:BB (yes 2 k's for every walk). Pierre is atleast 1:1. That is the the baseball we want next year, put balls in play, move runners over, dont K with men on base, even if you ground out to get a run in, you get it in as opposed to striking out.
Yes, it would be a horrible addition. He grounds out to 2nd routinely, and has no value in the outfield. I guarantee Sweeney or Fields would put up better numbers for a fraction of the cost.

Putting the ball in play? What good does that do? We need guys to GET ON BASE. Pierre puts the ball in play a lot, but it's usually a weak groundout. Guys who walk a lot (COUGH BRADY CLARK COUGH) come about 6 million dollars cheaper and are much more valuable.

southside rocks

09-22-2006, 11:27 AM

Alomar?!?!

Oh please no! :(:

My bet: Kenny Williams will change left field (Carl Crawford? Okay, Ryan Sweeney), will change shortstop (David Eckstein, who comes from the Cards in exchange for Mark Buehrle), will add a real catcher to back up AJ (could do worse than Henry Blanco!), will add a starting pitcher to replace MB (probably McCarthy, but maybe not), and will shore up the bullpen with a solid veteran (in exchange for Uribe, but I don't know who).

All fantasy right now, but fun to think about after a lousy game like the one last night.

Flight #24

09-22-2006, 11:44 AM

So, we trade Pods, Uribe, and McCarthy for only one setup man? :?:

You're forgetting the salary savings from shedding McCarthy's salary that can then be redistributed to improve other positions.

spiffie

09-22-2006, 11:56 AM

Yes, it would be a horrible addition. He grounds out to 2nd routinely, and has no value in the outfield. I guarantee Sweeney or Fields would put up better numbers for a fraction of the cost.

Putting the ball in play? What good does that do? We need guys to GET ON BASE. Pierre puts the ball in play a lot, but it's usually a weak groundout. Guys who walk a lot (COUGH BRADY CLARK COUGH) come about 6 million dollars cheaper and are much more valuable.
Amen. Among guys who have over 300 plate appearances in the #1 spot Pierre is 24th in OBP and Podsednik is 26th. Pierre is at .331 and Pods at .330. Even KC's leadoff hitter has a .368 OBP. I don't care if next year's #1 guy is a speedster, or can steal a lot of bases or any of that. Give me a guy who will be in the top 8 on OBP for leadoff hitters next year and I will be ecstatic.

KyWhiSoxFan

09-22-2006, 02:01 PM

Gone for 2007:
Pods, Cotts, Uribe, Buerhle, Riske, Mackowiack, Garcia

Blockbuster:
Trade Konerko

Trading Konerko, plus Buerhle and Garcia, will bring in the players the Sox need to plug significant holes:
Leadoff hitter
shortstop
left field
3 arms in the bullpen

Moving Crede up to fifth in the order will not cost the team anything, in my opinion. Crede will be just as productive in that spot as Konerko. We need to get more speed on the basepaths (getting a first baseman that can run faster than a tortoise is one goal).

Sargeant79

09-22-2006, 05:39 PM

Just playing along here...

At this point, I think it's safe to say that someone else will be in LF on opening day, whether it's Ryan Sweeney, Josh Fields, Juan Pierre, Carl Crawford, Ichiro, etc. I also would be very surprised if Uribe is around. But if we've learned anything about how Kenny Williams operates, we should consider that there's a good chance it won't be anyone that has been mentioned on here.

As for the pitching staff, I think that Garland is the only lock to return at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see any two of the other four in the rotation gone, and I think half the bullpen will be replaced as well. My personal wish-list for the rotation:

KW has been rumored to like Bedard for a while, and he would be a young and cost-effective arm for several years, allowing money to be spent on extensions for Buerhle and Crede and possibly upgrades elsewhere.

In my own wet dream, Bedard is obtained for Garcia or Contreras + a prospect. Then whichever of those two starters is left could be spun off to Texas along with Juan Uribe for Michael Young while LF gets filled by either ponying up enough young talent to get Carl Crawford or allowing Sweeney and Fields to duke it out in spring training, providing neither of those were moved in any aforementioned deals. Then you spend what money is left on some bullpen help

With Gary Sheffield going to free agency, do you think it would be fair for a good trade for both the Yankees and Sox if we traded Konerko for Bobby Abreu? I really like Konerko, but Abreu has a much better OBP than Paulie and he has about 30 SB per season. If this trade did happen, either JD or him would probably DH and Thome would play first. Is this reasonable or am I just too tired to make a rational decision?

southside rocks

09-23-2006, 08:59 AM

With Gary Sheffield going to free agency, do you think it would be fair for a good trade for both the Yankees and Sox if we traded Konerko for Bobby Abreu? I really like Konerko, but Abreu has a much better OBP than Paulie and he has about 30 SB per season. If this trade did happen, either JD or him would probably DH and Thome would play first. Is this reasonable or am I just too tired to make a rational decision?

Thome play first? That'd last about 2 weeks and be followed by a trip to the DL. Jim's barely kept it together physically this year; no way can he ever play in the field again on a regular basis.

Abreu? Another slugger? Well, yeah, but rather than add a run-producer, I'd rather see some big changes made in the pitching (starting and relief) so the lineup doesn't HAVE to get 10 runs a game to win.

And Konerko seems to me to be a lifer on this team. They guy who gave the game ball from the WS to Jerry Reinsdorf isn't going anywhere anytime soon. :tongue: In fact, they'll probably let Paulie play first base in a rocking chair before they'll trade him. (That's not a slam, I love PK.)

RealMenWearBlack

09-23-2006, 09:47 AM

Thome play first? That'd last about 2 weeks and be followed by a trip to the DL. Jim's barely kept it together physically this year; no way can he ever play in the field again on a regular basis.

Abreu? Another slugger? Well, yeah, but rather than add a run-producer, I'd rather see some big changes made in the pitching (starting and relief) so the lineup doesn't HAVE to get 10 runs a game to win.

And Konerko seems to me to be a lifer on this team. They guy who gave the game ball from the WS to Jerry Reinsdorf isn't going anywhere anytime soon. :tongue: In fact, they'll probably let Paulie play first base in a rocking chair before they'll trade him. (That's not a slam, I love PK.)

Gload could split time with Thome at first. I agree with you that Konerko will probably be here for the rest of his career. I just thought of the question because I was looking through the best OBPs of outfielders for this season and I looked over his other stats. Before I even saw who it was I thought to myself, "This is the type of guy that would be good for this team." I always thought he was more of a slugger too, but I don't really know much about him because he's been an NL guy until the past few months.

Edit: Now that I check it again, they didn't include strikeouts on ESPN.com, which I probably should have realized but is still surpising. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=reg&sort=onBasePct&minpa=0&split=0&season=2006&pos=of&hand=a&league=mlb&ageMin=17&ageMax=51
I checked his "Player Card" and it said he struck out 133 times this season.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3537

southside rocks

09-23-2006, 09:51 AM

Gload could split time with Thome at first. I agree with you that Konerko will probably be here for the rest of his career. I just thought of the question because I was looking through the best OBPs of outfielders for this season and I looked over his other stats. Before I even saw who it was I thought to myself, "This is the type of guy that would be good for this team." I always thought he was more of a slugger too, but I don't really know much about him because he's been an NL guy until the past few months.

I know, I've been entertaining myself lately with fantasy trades too, and watching other games and coveting some of the players. Well, it beats watching the current roster out on the field! :?:

One guy I know came up with a Buehrle/Crede trade to the Cards for Carpenter and Eckstein. We had fun with that one.

Qdaddy

09-23-2006, 11:24 AM

All I want KW to do this offseason is keep Dye, Thome, Konerko, Iguchi,
Crede, Pierzinski and then go out and get 3 real good "piranhas" type players...lol

I don't care who they are just someone who can bunt, steal, and get on base anyway they can! (Via: Hit,walk,HBP,Ball bounces away from the catcher..I don't care.)

Here's to the Sox Revenge in '07 :gulp:

diehard

09-23-2006, 09:41 PM

Alot depends on how some guys play winter ball. You may see Jerry Owens and Josh Fields in center and left.

southside rocks

09-23-2006, 09:45 PM

Alot depends on how some guys play winter ball. You may see Jerry Owens and Josh Fields in center and left.

Fields was on the Fox postgame. He's an impressive kid. Comes across as a nice guy, and certainly his game looks good ... Looking at the age of some of the Sox players on the '06 team, it's really good to see these youngsters who look almost ready to step in. I give KW a lot of credit for the farm system!

Hitmen77

09-23-2006, 09:54 PM

All I want KW to do this offseason is keep Dye, Thome, Konerko, Iguchi,
Crede, Pierzinski and then go out and get 3 real good "piranhas" type players...lol

I don't care who they are just someone who can bunt, steal, and get on base anyway they can! (Via: Hit,walk,HBP,Ball bounces away from the catcher..I don't care.)

Here's to the Sox Revenge in '07 :gulp:

Barring injury, I would be surprised to see any of these 6 guys gone by opening day.

In addition, I do expect Brian Anderson to be our starting CF next year. The Sox have invested too much time in him, he's shown good offensive improvement in the 2nd half, and his defense is tough to replace. Though I could see him lose that job if he has a poor spring training and/or poor winter league outing.

That would leave Pods and Uribe as the likely non-pitchers to go.

Grzegorz

09-23-2006, 11:13 PM

In addition, I do expect Brian Anderson to be our starting CF next year. The Sox have invested too much time in him, he's shown good offensive improvement in the 2nd half, and his defense is tough to replace. Though I could see him lose that job if he has a poor spring training and/or poor winter league outing.

I agree that he has to show well in spring training to take over in CF. If he gets the opportunity I fully expect him to achieve that goal.

Myrtle72

09-23-2006, 11:17 PM

Fields was on the Fox postgame. He's an impressive kid. Comes across as a nice guy, and certainly his game looks good ... Looking at the age of some of the Sox players on the '06 team, it's really good to see these youngsters who look almost ready to step in. I give KW a lot of credit for the farm system!

I agree about Fields. He looked intelligent, friendly, humble, and proud all at the same time on the postgame show. He also looked pretty good on the field, not perfect, but good. And well, a homerun for his first at-bat? I'm happy with that.

I think he'd be a great left-fielder. And I think the secret to having a great baseball team in the long-term is having GOOD young players. Fields and guys like him are going to be the key to another WS.

Lip Man 1

09-23-2006, 11:26 PM

For what it's worth:

In Phil Rogers' column tonight at the Tribune web site, he makes mention of two things.

1. That Manny Ramirez would probably include both Chicago teams in the small group that he would waive his 5-10 rights and approve a trade to.

and

2. That Ichiro will have to make his future intentions known to the Mariners this off season. Rodgers said the White Sox would almost certainly show real interest in him if he becomes available although it would come at a high price. He then says how would an outfield of 'Ichiro, Dye and Anderson look?'

Lip

Martinigirl

09-23-2006, 11:30 PM

He then says how would an outfield of 'Ichiro, Dye and Anderson look?'

Lip

It sure the hell wouldn't look bad ;)

EDIT: I also wanted to add , I don't want our Sox to have anything to do with the circus that is Manny.

Frater Perdurabo

09-23-2006, 11:33 PM

He then says how would an outfield of 'Ichiro, Dye and Anderson look?'

Quite good. But what would the Mariners demand in return? Furthermore, do the Sox have what they would demand, and would it be enough to outweigh other teams' offers?

I have no interested whatsoever in Manny Ramirez. I hope the Sox share my disinterest.

areilly

09-24-2006, 11:50 AM

A three-trade lineup with a bulletproof batting order and a group of starters that comes with a free box of shell casings.

I'll take Manny Ramirez and his 150 RBI anytime he wants to bring them to the southside.

I know most people here can't stand him; but I'm willing to take the eccentricities along with, when healthy, arguably one of the top 3-5 hitters in the game today.

His defense is awful. After watching C.Lee and Podsednik for the past several years out there, the bar is not set exceptionally high for LF defense in the first place. CF and RF defense are much more critical IMO.

I also traded Sweeney, Garcia, Broadway, and whoever else it would take to pull off such a heist.

Flight #24

09-24-2006, 12:56 PM

I'll take Manny Ramirez and his 150 RBI anytime he wants to bring them to the southside.

I know most people here can't stand him; but I'm willing to take the eccentricities along with, when healthy, arguably one of the top 3-5 hitters in the game today.

His defense is awful. After watching C.Lee and Podsednik for the past several years out there, the bar is not set exceptionally high for LF defense in the first place. CF and RF defense are much more critical IMO.

Exactly. Manny makes Papi. Imagine what he'd do for Thome, Konerko, Dye, etc. There's absolutely no way in hell that he gives up enough defensively or in the clubhouse to counteract that.

The only question is whether or not his payroll requires you to gut other areas. If so, then I could see it being a net negative. But if JR's willing to absorb that for a year or 2 and trading only 1 SP (which IMO is the plan anyway), then that's a move that dramatically upgrades the offense AND makes it more consistent.

It's not the 2-6 guys, it's the other guys. Turning one of them into arguably the best hitter on the team and one of the top 5 in the game is a no-brainer improvement.

That has to be the WORST trade proposal I've ever seen for Vernon Wells in my entire lifetime.

After Broadway, we don't have any top pitching prospects. Don't say Heath Phillips, PLEASE.

I don't think we really need to make so many changes. Undoubtedly, Pods is gone, but I am not even sure we will trade Uribe.

Chisox003

09-24-2006, 05:44 PM

I didn't even look at the trade proposals to be honest. I just went down the list and saw all the names we'd be getting and started laughing.

Ichiro, Young, Wells, Molina, Walker, Cordero and Gagne.

I stand by my W o w.

:rolleyes:

caulfield12

09-24-2006, 06:05 PM

I didn't even look at the trade proposals to be honest. I just went down the list and saw all the names we'd be getting and started laughing.

Ichiro, Young, Wells, Molina, Walker, Cordero and Gagne.

I stand by my W o w.

:rolleyes:

I don't think we're every going to see a back-up catcher in Molina making more or about the same as AJ.

Cordero, fine...who are we going to trade to get him? And why would the Nationals want to give up their closer so easily? And Gagne...well, we might as well add Mark Mulder or Carl Pavano while we're at it.