Yes. That's why I posted it, obviously. But it's also worth noting that upstream tubists are often hard to find because LOW RANGE is a struggle for low placement upstream players, and because the large mouthpiece gets in the way of your chin. It's not inconsequential to mention this, even if it doesn't matter to you. As a low placement player myself it's always impressive and inspiring to see individuals with similar anatomy and embouchure types who are successful. THAT was my point.

hmm... I don’t think it’s as uncommon as people make it out to be. Blair Bollinger and Justin Clark are both great, upstream bass trombonists.

I studied with Mr. Bollinger for a semester in college, so I'm aware of him being an upstream player. There's also a great photo I believe Doug took of him playing into a clear mouthpiece that clearly shows his upstream embouchure. However, for Justin Clark, I just watched a video and I'm not so sure he's upstream.

In that video you get some pretty good head on and side footage of his chops - and he doesn't look upstream. He looks like he has noticeably more top lip in the mouthpiece than bottom.

Derek just won the ST Louis tuba job and he plays more upstream the lower he goes.

This video doesn't give a clear shot of Derek's chops. I watched some others of his and again, I'm not convinced he's definitely upstream. His placement looks like it could be low placement or medium high placement. He could be upstream, but he moves a lot when he plays so it's hard to keep track of his embouchure motion. Without watching him play, in person, into a clear mouthpiece, it's pretty hard to say whether he is or isn't for sure. Contrast that to this video of Oren Marshall, where to my eyes, you have a pretty clear example of an upstream tuba embouchure that's evident in both his low mouthpiece placement and his embouchure motion of pulling down towards the chin to ascend and pushing up to the nose to descend.

Do you see my point about upstream embouchures being rare for lower brass? They exist, but of the 3 mentioned in your comment, only 1 is definitely upstream. The only other definitively upstream trombone player I know of right now who has played for a serious orchestra is Rusty McKinney, who Dave Wilken wrote a blog post about. And I know that doesn't mean they aren't out there, but the odds are just against them. Upstream embouchures generally require much more work to get a fat sounding low range, or a big dark tone that works well for orchestral playing. Additionally, for many people that work best with upstream embouchures, it can be hard to get big mouthpieces low enough to work right because the bottom of the mouthpiece rim can run into your chin, and bigger mouthpieces are pretty much the guaranteed norm for most orchestral players these days. That's why you see many many more trumpet players with an upstream embouchure, and of the trombone players that play with an upstream embouchure, they're more likely to be found playing jazz or other styles besides classical, which is more flexible in terms of the tone and range requirements demanded on players.

Dude, your tone is so combative. I’m just trying to give you my perspective.

No, I do not agree with you. I believe whether you play up or down stream depends heavily on how you jaw is physically shaped. Everyone learns where their tendencies are and then works to make the shifts more effecient and, therefore, more subtle. Most people naturally tend to fit a more downstream blow. That’s why you see a vast majority of downstream orchestral players.

It’s also been my experience that there are a more shifts necessary for orchestral playing than people like to admit—which may not work with your strict definitions of embouchures. People need to go into different embouchures to play different registers and dynamics. While I play downstream most the time, I go slightly upstream for a few notes deep in the trigger register.

Derek has an over-all tendency to go upstream... not sure why you’re not seeing that. I’ve played with a ton of good orchestral tuba players that generally play upstream. Justin seems to be playing more 50/50 in that video—which is different from when I knew his playing years ago (although it sneaks in here and there and you can tell he doesn’t have a classic embouchure). I don’t think orchestral upstream is an anomaly or something to be dogmatic about. I defenitly don’t think “the odds are against them.”

I’m glad we got some cool videos and great music out of this conversation. I’m tired of talking about embouchures.

Dude, your tone is so combative. I’m just trying to give you my perspective.

I don't think I was combative just because I disagreed with parts of your comment. I was just responding to your contribution, it doesn't automatically make it contentious.

No, I do not agree with you. I believe whether you play up or down stream depends heavily on how you jaw is physically shaped.

Not exactly. What makes an embouchure upstream or downstream is based on the direction of the airstream inside the cup, which is determined by which lip predominates. Mouthpiece placement usually determines this. However, jaw shape IS a huge factor in figuring out which embouchure type is most efficient for a player. This distinction matters because it's possible for players to play upstream when they should be downstream, and vice versa.

Everyone learns where their tendencies are and then works to make the shifts more effecient and, therefore, more subtle. Most people naturally tend to fit a more downstream blow. That’s why you see a vast majority of downstream orchestral players.

I completely agree with this.

It’s also been my experience that there are a more shifts necessary for orchestral playing than people like to admit—which may not work with your strict definitions of embouchures.

These aren't "my" definitions, they are Donald Reinhardts, Doug Elliott's, Dave Wilken's, etc. Nothing I've written has been claimed as my own ideas about embouchure. Additionally, all of the ideas I posted about embouchure can be observed.

People need to go into different embouchures to play different registers and dynamics. While I play downstream most the time, I go slightly upstream for a few notes deep in the trigger register.

People don't necessarily need to shift, or go into different embouchures. It's more often the case that people don't know how to practice in a way that will develop your playing without shifting. Additionally, many traditional attitudes of "sound first" and "air air air" among brass teachers often lead to people doing whatever it takes to get the notes out immediately, instead of building them long term. It's certainly harder to learn to play mostly everything without shifting or changing embouchures, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Derek has an over-all tendency to go upstream... not sure why you’re not seeing that. I’ve played with a ton of good orchestral tuba players that generally play upstream.

I'm not seeing it because his embouchure motion is inconsistent with how upstream embouchures function a lot of the time, and because his placement is pretty close to half and half, which means it could go either way. And because the video doesn't clearly show his chops, doesn't show multiple angles. Again, what makes a player upstream is the direction of the air INSIDE the mouthpiece. I'm not saying this DEFINITELY isn't happening. I'm saying that I'm not sure, and I think it's hard to clearly say. Maybe Doug or Dave will chime in here and point out something I'm not seeing. If you've seen him up close, that's great, but don't assume that your observations are completely obvious from that video.

Justin seems to be playing more 50/50 in that video—which is different from when I knew his playing years ago (although it sneaks in here and there and you can tell he doesn’t have a classic embouchure). I don’t think orchestral upstream is an anomaly or something to be dogmatic about. I defenitly don’t think “the odds are against them.”

I think we're seeing different things here.

I’m glad we got some cool videos and great music out of this conversation. I’m tired of talking about embouchures.

I'm not tired of it. I happen to enjoy it, and if you don't, you don't have to do it. It informs my playing and teaching. Sorry if I ruffled feathers by engaging.