Wednesday, April 22, 2009

!קיינע בני תורה

When I posted the letter of complaint yesterday there was one thing I wanted to achieve: Not convince the haters, that'll never happen. It was to prove to the fence-sitters that it's not just hearsay. That it's true when we say that the hate for Lubavitch has no explanation. That it's got nothing to do with Moshiach or putting on tefillin at Tachana Merkazit or Chinuch Atzmai/Agudah. That it's pure unadulterated hate, brought upon the world by a group of ex-Lubavitchers or relations of Lubavitchers: namely the Rabbis Ruderman, Kotler and Kamenecki. What Kalmanovich had against Lubavitch is beyond me, but it seems to be a dispute over מי בראש, which one can understand based on the fact that he took the Mirrer Yeshivah for himself when it was re-established here in New York after WW2 and much of the faculty that would work for him was Mishpooche. So the bachurim weren't "Bnei Teyreh," ok. So they were like Goyim who were to be ignored and not feed? I don't get it. Besides, when did they ever farher them that they could just make such assumptions?!

It seems like it was quite common for that perception to be held even by the greatest Balei Middos and Tzaddikim among them. Even the great Reb Baruch Ber Leibovitch was surprised to see that they were either bachurim from Poland or in Poland that could learn like the Litvishe! So it should come as no surprise that men with lesser Ahavas Yisroel should think along those lines too. But the LubavitcherswereLitvishe, just not these boys. They were Polish from Warsaw and Lodz. Oh well. What I don't get is how these same people after WW2 managed to teach all those Hungarians and Galicianers if they weren't true Bnei Teyreh! It must have really tested their patience... My friends, we can sit and complain about the fact that Lubavitchers bash "snags" all day, but this - I believe - takes the cake. Talk is cheap, withholding cash and foodstuffs from hungry bachurim just because is low. Very low. A forthcoming post will shed some light on a situation that happened only 20-something years before, where the Lubavitchers were in a position to give and the Litvisher on the receiving end. What happened then might surprise some of you.

Tzig wrote: "That it's pure unadulterated hate, brought upon the world by a group of ex-Lubavitchers or relations of Lubavitchers"

Its easier for guys like you to repeat this type of stupidity that they feed you in the "How to be a good loob robot" hand book, than actualy look yourself in the mirror and try and see.... hey! I actualy do have a huge pimple on my nose and they werent just staring cus they are full of hate. The point being; its just too hard for you to face the facts that Chabad has, and always had fundamental hashkafic, Halachic, differences with the bnei torah for generations already. Differences that are very hard for true torah yidden like RAK and others, who looked for EMES and nothing less, to ignore. And when they saw this in the Schneersons ( I noticed youre not makpid on giving the respect to gedolim by titling them "RAV") they couldnt just put on one of your fake smiles and rant Ahavas Yisroel (another very important rule from the hand book).And BTW did it ever occure to you that "Moshiach or putting on tefillin at Tachana Merkazit or Chinuch Atzmai/Agudah" stuff didnt just happen over night? The seeds of the form of judaism that Chabad practices in 2009 were planted years and years ago. There were some very great and smart talmidei Chachamim that the rest of Klal Yisroel has always called Gedolim, that had the unbelievable forsight to see Chabad for what they really were way back then, and also how they would look in the future. How right they were! This in itself is testament and PROOF to their Gadlus. some people might even call people that can tell the future "Balei Ruach Hakodesh". They were able to see and warn us all ahead of time. If not for them who knows how many neshamos would have fell to the wayside practicing the 'mashiach cult religion'.

"Besides, when did they ever farher them that they could just make such assumptions?!"

A. Please! One has to only try to speak to you average shliach or Lubavitcher Bochur in learning for 3 minutes to know what type lokshin "Tayre" they learn in Chabad. B. Bnei torah know that being a "Ben Torah" is not only how much torah one has learned . There are many other componants involved. The fact that you as a Lubavitcher dont know this and was never taught this, proofs that Lubavitchers are far from being Bnei Torah.

Tzig,I'm a Lutvak,(albeit with some chasidish and Lubavitch blood)reading this and other posts it seems that you were taught in Lubavitch that people like myself and rabbonim I deeply respect are terrible reshoim.It's good to know what and who I'm dealing with.The last question I want an answer for is if this is also in the name of "ahavas yisroel".If it is merely for some kind of "political gain", nu meilah, if you truly believe this is in the name of "ahavas yisroel" I'll have to write you off and truly brainwashed.(Agav, when you allowed the wicked piece against Harry Maryles, an honest man, who unlike yourself is not anonymous, and a person who apparently was somewhat friendly with your father,I started to have real suspicions about you.People who put political fights ahead of family and basic decency are usually victims of brainwashing)

Tzig,Calm down,I'm not lying to you I am indeed a Litvack and I use the chasidish vernacular Lutvack, because of my daily interactions which are mostly with chasidim.(I am proud to daven nusach Ashkenaz, though I don't think what nusach you daven is very important)In any case what I am is totally irrelevant to the case I was making.Regarding Harry:He actually did not allow any terrible comments AND even than was after you,totally out of the blue, allowed a beneath the belt attack (by a silly fellow, btw)which seemed to me at least to be a cultish act. (If I was Harry I would demand an apology or immediately post your name.There is nothing worse that anonymous back stabbers.Sunlight has an amazing ability to make bloggers think before they post)Hopefully you''ll prove me wrong

I have followed his blog and don't know your name, so he must have done a good job of blocking it.I would actually advise you to drop your anonymity, especially if you really believe in what you are doing.

I guess Maybe was on the fence. I just rolled over into the ohel and my shoves fell off.

The letter mentioned Amshinov and other chasidic groups.

The Mirrer's that got along with the Chasidim and Chabadtzkers over there-and devoloped lifelong relationships with them- disdains the more recent evolvement of Chabad(They also were not influenced by R'Yankev and R' Ruderman, kiyaduah and they also openly fayfed un Maran, relatively recently)There was practically no open resistence to Maran's loychem milchems Hashem by all the so-called 'Bob admirerers.All the E'Ydiker groups that are still fatayned on Maran for what he did to them personally (and no nothing about R' Yankev and even less about R' Ruderman) all unanimously agree that he was right that in Chabad it shtinks.

I know many Beleh Batim who learned by very moderate people and they all agree that there is something terribly wrong the kaht hayeduah.

"that had the unbelievable forsight to see Chabad for what they really were way back then"

Thank you, Yankel, Thank you for bringing the truth to light. You are exactly right.

This has nothing to do with Mashiach, nothing to do with Tefillan in the streets, nothing to do with Mivtzoim or Bais Chabad or learning Chassidus. Excellant, we've finally gotten to the point.

This has to do with a couple of Columbus', vus hut antplekt Amerika and decided they knew better then R' Chaim Ozer, better then the Minchas Eluzer, better then the Belzer Rebbe, better then all the Kedosihe Elyon that had fine relationships with the FR, some cordial, some Yedidas Nafshis, some on a working level but respectful and curteous, and all these did not see some dark, existential threat posed by Chabad to Torah and Judaism.

What exactly was the tremendous insight the "gedolim with foresight" that you allude to posses that these "Gedoilim" that I listed were not privy to.

I will not step back another Dor to the Rashab and R' Chaim, or perhaps the "Gaonim" of the Vaad zenen geven sharfer and possesed more insight then the Brisker Rov?

Maybe... said:

"I know many Beleh Batim who learned by very moderate people and they all agree that there is something terribly wrong the kaht hayeduah"

Wow, you really get around, don't you. How many is many?

I know many Sorotzkins and they think your Maran is....sorry this a family blog, I'll have to leave that to your imagination.

I'm sure you can fill in the blank, you are so well informed, after all.

Oh, and sorry, I'm not anon3, but if it makes you feel better, I may be Lkwdguy in disguise.

"I'm sure you can fill in the blank, you are so well informed, after all."

Thank you for the compliment. I think that is the first time I was ever complimented by a Lubab sympathizer.

You proved my point. Even the people who where vehemently against Maran, agreed that there is a bad smell comming from Chabad.(The Rov couldn't smell, so guess it was his 'kook')

You can refer to him as 'your Maran' bikoved godel. You have no idea if he caused pain to people that I am close with or not. At least they were respectful enough to even show up to the his kevureh and respected him besides the hurt. Talk about hisbatlus

>>I know many Sorotzkins and they think your Maran is....sorry this a family blog, I'll have to leave that to your imagination.

Kindly name which Sorotzkin. I am very close to some of them. And I think it would be beneficial for others on this thread to see you for the lying dying you are. You are dishonest. This kind of lying only destroys your credibility.

I have learned by one Sorotzkin, and he quotes the gadol in his shiurim and his seforim. So, again, which Sorotzkin? When did he make that comment? And would you mind if I ask if he knows you? I would be more than willing to this with you on the phone.

EDITED THROUGHOUT FOR VILE AND VULGAR LANGUAGE MOST UNBECOMING FOR A SUPPOSED "BEN TORAH..."

Kalman,Just curious if you really and truly see nothing wrong with a huge bunch of people in Crown Heights and Tzfas and Chicago (like our Friend Eli Turen)and....well and everywhere else that continue the charade of "chai vekayom" "neshomo b'guf" yellow flags etc,etc....(not to mention Milchtain from Milwaukee with his boreinu shul...).Nothing wrong?C'mon you can't be serious?Was there, did it, outgrew it!

Yeruchem,So tell us in your eyes are Snags better or worse than Nazis?Also, why were you Lubabs tripping all over yourself to kiss Riggs behind, when he discovered some Jewish blood and when he wrote the story about the Nazi officer who saved the R'Yosef Yitzchok of Lubavitch??I guess it served your cause, right?

What Zuroff probably wrote was that Vaad Hatzola tried primarily to save frum Jews, right?Well, it's not PC, but that is what the halocha says, aying bemishnah b'sof Horeyois.

we kissed Rigg's beh--d? where did you see that? It's called trying to balance the story a bit so that he doesn't get the hate from the Kalmanovich people, but rather gets the full story.

Zuroff wrote that they basically tried to save their own, mainly Yeshivah bachurim, and their families of course, the Rosh Yeshiva's families that is, not the bachurim's. Basically they looked out for their own, just as DBG and the Jewish Agency did...

Yeruchem,You must be young, there was a whole glowing article about Rigg in Beis Moshiach and Lubab inc set up for interviews in the Jewish media Zev Brenners show for example.Oh, btw, how was the Frierdigeh Rebbe saved? Who was in the small party of people that Rabbi Jacobson worked so tirelessly to save?Ok, so THE Frierdigeh Rebbe, his wife, his daughter and son in law, the eyneekel, R'Chaim Leiberman,Chodakov.....All fremdeh,eh???Hey,Lets stop and count how many yidden were saved during the war by Mike Tress and his young Agudah chevra,R'aHRON kOTLER who worked tirelessly, R'Leizer Silver etc, quite a few.How many were saved by Lubavitch?Maybe I should stop now?Oh, Lubavitch sent boat tickets to the Rebbe who was stuck in France.

So, Yeruchem, shayfaleh, you "blame" other groups for saving their "own" while Lubavitch did the same?Hey, btw, what family member did R'Ahron Kotler have in Shanchai?(R'Shneurs wife, the rebbitzen shlit'a was in Shangchai, they had made the shidduch but had not gotten married before the European world was turned over,only years later were they able to meet and marry.R'Schneur was in Eretz Yisroel by his Zedeh R;Isser Zalman.This is just written to add some historical knowledge to the clueless out there)

Yeruchem,The Jews in Eretz Yisroel could do very little ,only in America was it possible to raise funds and try and force the Allies to care about the Jewish plight.To come betaynos to people when you have done nothing does not sound like yoisher to me.Correct me if I'm wrong

"What Kalmanovich had against Lubavitch is beyond me, but it seems to be a dispute over מי בראש, which one can understand based on the fact that he took the Mirrer Yeshivah for himself when it was re-established here in New York after WW2 and much of the faculty that would work for him was Mishpooche."

Wow. Mr Historian. Tell me, please, which family members had shtelers bichayav? Can you name the other appointee? Ever heard of R' Efrayim Mordechah?R' Chaim and R' Chatzkel went to E'Y and R' Leib, R' Shmuel Charkaver, R' Chaim Visoker, etc, broke off on their own (and Barry)

'So they were like Goyim who were to be ignored and not feed?'If one of the Mirrers would have succombed to starvation because R' Chaim Shtutziner gave away the money, what would R' Chaim have to say? Was there a guarantee that there was an unlimited supply of funds from the source?

"Besides, when did they ever farher them that they could just make such assumptions?!"

They had to do with them. It doesn't take more than a minute or two to know where someone is holding in learning.

"Even the great Reb Baruch Ber Leibovitch was surprised to see that they were either bachurim from Poland or in Poland that could learn like the Litvishe!"

First of all, half the Mir was Polishe, so your quote is taken out of context. Secondly, by R' Baruch Ber, lehren vey zayn Rebbe hut gelehrnet was almost the exclusive baramoter for kenin lehrnen. He would have been shocked to meet a bachor from Chachmey Lublin that said those type of Sevaros. (Saying a sevarah in learning, bay uhnz, is a greyser sach; the Rov juggled a severa in his heads for months. Maran went back and forth from the Chazon Ish to the Rav re that famous shtickle on Shalmey Chagigah. It is a serious matter)

If you were previously unaware of this phenomenon, than you are like a heyntekeh litvikeh teenager that boys oys yesoydes from the first Rashi in the meshechtah. V'dal

"So it should come as no surprise that men with lesser Ahavas Yisroel should think along those lines too."

True, R' Baruch Ber's Ahavas Yisroel was legendary. He said, in his humility-kidarkoy bakoydesh, that he doesn't know if he will be zoyche to a cheleck in Gan Eyden for his lehren/seforim/shiurim or his davenin and gemilas chasadim. However, he will get a cheleck because when he sees a Yid in Gahs, he thinks in his mind that there should be a brachoh on his head.Similarly, Maran made a very similar comment, re what he will get a cheleck for, where his Ahavas Yisroel was for the rest of the Klal when he protected us from the influences of the kat hayeduah via a preemptive strike. Those that knew him personally, knew that that was shlowy kifey tivoy, and he was an extremely sensitive person. A certain Adom Godel, ehr zuhl lang leben, doesn't agree on any of Maran's policies, but he is deeply impressed by the qualatative and quantative sensitivity that was manifested in Maran's interpersonal relationships.

I hoped that for 'Bobs, the things I wrote about the severity of saying a sevara is not as foreign to you as the concept of hiskashrus is to me. To you, personally it obviously is, nebach. No wonder why you are impressed with long rambling drashos

There is a photo with R' Chaim Oyzer reading a newspaper. He was oysek binyuhney klal.

Kalman. Don't remember if R' Elchonon was involved in the story.The datcha stories are the best and we can go on and on about it.

The Alter of Kelm rights that it is normall for a normall person to be interested in the nayes. The Mirrers all used to read the paper. In the old days of Torah V'daas one of them, maybe R' Zelig, walked around with it in the hall.Someone used to speak with R' Elya Chazan re the nayas, on a daily basis. (Some held that R' Elya was the biggest bukiy the Mir; he was a buveste elyuy. Agav, he only spoke to the Rov in learning once in his life, in Vilna, and he was scared to approach him again, even though the Rov was impressed with him)When R' Elya was in a comma-like state for a while before his petirah (later had a somewhat full recovery and shortly afterwords was niftar). An individual who used to discuss the news with him on a daily basis, when R' Elya was in teh comma, spoke to him about the news. R' Shmuel Birnbaum (who tzig likes for some reason) walked in and told that person that he should speak to R' Ela in learning, he doesn't care about the nayas in his comma-like state. That person, listened and told him over his won Teyreh.When R' Elya recovered, that person repeated to him the same Teyrah he told him when he was out, to which R' Elya responded' 'ehr hut shoym gezugt dem shtickle'. Needles to say, he didn't remember any of the nayus.

The term 'hiskashrus' is not used in my circles and the Chabad connotations of the word re a Rebbe, is beyond my hasagus.But, hey, I am a simple person, I care about the nayus

Can I add a קנייטש to this story?Rebbitzen Rishel Kotler תליט"א ,אשת חבר צו ר"שניאור זצ"ל, was in Shangchai during the war, (the shidduch between R'Schneur had been made but there had been no time for the wedding)If I'm not mistaken she stayed by Horav Ashkenazi (hopefully someone can corroborate the story)

Also, Rav Ashkenazi himself was apparently not Chabad, he had been on his way from Russia to Eretz Yisroel and was offered the job in Shanchai, which had quite a large Russian Jewish community in the 20's already (an interesting note is that Ehud Olmerts father was a Russian Jew in Harbin,China)He sent his son R'Moshe on to Eretz Yisroel where he joined the Toras Emes Chabad yeshiva.Apparently the mother RAV aSHKENAZI of Shanghais wife was from a Chabad backround.Interesting to note that R'Moshe Ashkenazi was born in Vladivostok a port city in The Russian far east (Vladivostok=far east in Russian)I don't know what his father was doing there, maybe he was rov?If anybody can ad details I'd be thankful

I heard that he was worried that in America there was a safek about two days Shabbos, because R' Chaim said that there is a place far away where there is a safek; but it is not coroberated by the other storiesIn America, he would sing zmiros with the buchorim on Shabbos for hours on endHe obviously was makpid on Chalev Yisroel over here. He was by a Hungarian who told him that he has to rely on Kulos because in America it is hard to get CY. R' Burech Ber reprlied, that der elyekeh Chasam Sofer held it was a problem (a) speak that guys lingo and b) R' Chaim had a tremendous respect for the Chasam Sofer, that's for another time)

R' Burech Ber famously had to regurgitate when they gave him kovod at a dinner. Other times, he covered his ears in public and said,repeatedely, s'iz nisht rightig'

All you guys referrin to Rischel as the Rebbetzin: do you get double kollel checks from yeshiva even though you live in Israel, do your wives have cushy jobs in yeshiva, did you get a rent reducted apartment, are you promised a chaburah with an even higher paycheck raise, are your family simchos covered by yeshiva?Phoo

Tzig,Let me understand your logic.I posted that I believed that R'Meir Ashkenazi was not Chabad, something I had heard but am not sure about.You claim that you don't think I'm right because his fathers name was Schneur Zalman.Ok.How about that his name was Meir and his sons Moshe, both not classical Lubavitch names.If a persons fathers name was Schneour Zalman he does not necessarily need to be Chabad.He may have been, but I don't see the "proof"

HirshelAll I was trying to say that names prove very little, unless its a menachem mendel ben dov ber ben schneour zalman, type of thing.By women the names are a bit more of a proof,Nechama dina,Chaya moushka etc are not common in other circles

Hirshel,If R'Meir Ashkenazi was a card carrying Lubavitcher, how does it fit with Yankel Raichiks claim that Lubavitcher boys died of starvation because of being cut out of the vaads funds? Wouldn't the rabbi of quite a large community be able to help out a few fellow Lubavitchers?I counted the guys in your pic and its a grand total of 27, if 25 thousand refugees could have survived Shangchai I find it difficult to believe that the chief rabbi would not be able to get them the very basic needs.I don't think they expected caviar.

He lives right near amulah shel Tora in the apartment building from the corner on the ground floor. He is short and squat and speaks in a low and soft voice. He mainly has daughters (we were almost mishadech) and his oldest son is in his upper teens. He is a machnis orach par exclelance. (He has a physical resemelbance to his brother who is Rosh Yeshiva in Kamenitz; the one who is still upset that he got farchaped)He has sechel and tact and avoids discussing his REBBE when Litvaks are in his house in order to make them comfortable.I was in his apratment when a 'Bob teenager from America started mentioning R' Nuchem's relationship with The Rebbey. He just smiled and when the kid asked him, ehr hut gehalten fuhn der Rebbe'? he changed the topic and smiledI hope his son ends up like him

Kalman,Coming from the Litvishe perspective, it's quite easy to see how R'BB could have a Lubavitcher eynikel(oor aynikel,actually,no?)In der(proverbial) Litta a persons chashivus had a lot to do with their intellect as The Litvishe worshipped intellect of any kind, memeilah, somebody who is a scion of greatness sans the intellect is set up to disappoint his family and feel like a failure, especially when coming from shpitz kep.Lubavitch, of today at least, the Peylishe CHAG'AS version, is much more accepting.No need to be a baal nigleh to feel accomplished, no need to be a big mayven in chassidus to feel accepted, no need to have shmoineh begudem, like Ger for example.So it's an easy choice.The only problem is Lubavitch in "Der velt" is viewed in a negative light (to say the least)Now all you Lubavitchers out there, don't start attacking me,please! I'm trying to give you a Litvishers perspective, that's all.

Maybe A Litvak,It's fun to see the perspective of a guy who has a "feel" for history and knows a wee bit.It's tiring to read the musings of the ignorant Chabad bashers or the ravings of Lubavitcher hagiographers.First a grip on some of the "facts" than the commentary.I'm an old time style Litvack, keeps an open mind .Btw, I was reading the book about R'JB Soloveichik "thinking aloud" and got a nice perspective of his personality, actually I warmed up to him.I never knew to much about him coming out of "aylem hayeshivos" Anyway, I liked a quote he had there about The Shulchan Oruch Harav something like: "I'm very far from Lubavitch, but I feel a closeness with Baal Hatanya" I think he says there that he saw in him thinking of a "misnaged".Not that I'm even comparing myself to R'Yoshe Ber, but I too feel a pull to the Baal Hatanyas way of thinking.It's very similar to the old syle Litvishe derech.

You don't understand the degree of kenin lehren that the Litvaks are michayev. From your perspective, the could learn, but from the perspective of a Kamentizer Rosh Yeshiva....It is nothing new that people got farchapedd to chasidus; even with chushuva zeydes and fathers. R' Leibele Eiger comes to mind.

Kalman,The Chabad of yesteryear was kop, deep study of chassidus, the Harvard of Chasides if you will.The Rebbe was not seen as a person you go to to ask for gashmiyus, like the letter of the Baal Hatanya.True the later Rebbes changed that a bit, but if you ever see how difficult it was to get in to Tomchei Temimim in the Reshabs time you''ll see what I mean.

KalmanI don't know R'BB eynikelach personally, so I would have no idea if they "lived up to expectations"I was giving you a general upclose perspective of a the "Litviseh"Stam azoi R'BB was very far from your average Litvack, his reverence for his Rebbe R'Chaim was more than a chosid has for his rebbe and interestingly enough, there were chasidim with chasidic levush in his yeshiva .Maybe Tzig will post some pictures of the chaseedishe boys in his yeshiva, which appeared in a book that came out a few years ago about R'BB

Maybe a LitvackAh! You meant R'JB when you refer to the "Bostoner".Saw the comment but can't find it now, you wrote that in "inyonei dealma' he was a "shoiteh".No, I don't agree, you probably meant that he was no a Varshaver soicher when it came to anything outside the realm of learning or teaching, probably that I agree with .Btw, Lubavitch spin his "relationship" with them in a certain way, which is not very true.He had misgivings about some things but also said that The Lubavitcher is one of the few who understand what the world outside of the daled amos is like.Did you read the book?

MAL,Sorry, I wrote my post before I saw you posting me to your earlier post.Well...Your vort is a bit sharf I probably would have worded it a bit differently (lol)So as I said don't think he was a "shoiteh beinyonei alma" but was no match for intrigue.The "deyos kaizvois" bit:Well, I'm long out of yeshiva so I'm starting to question who was actually right! But yeah, Lubavitch probably felt a certain affinity since they were also seen as "outsiders".Also, I think Lubavitch latched on shtarck to the "Brisk" label with it's cache.It's funny, many times I've heard or read Lubavitchers referring to "Brisk" either because of naivete or a spin, as being close to Lubavitch or other stories regarding Brisker roshei yeshiva, and have to scratch my head and think "what in heaven are they talking about, this is so not Brisk" only to realize that they mean (or with very Lubavitch or younger kids, do not know better)R'JB or R'Ahron Soloveichik.So yes the relationship is a back door entrance to the cache of "Brisk"

Regarding the FR Activities from his youth, is ludicrous to say that he was selfish,Was the Mikvoas he built for his chasidimThe Chadorim in russiaThe Matzohs for Jewish soldiers by the Japaneese Russian warThe release time program just pass thru the igrois kodesh and see that his life was Mesiras nefesh for Klal Yisroel

The anonymous poster of Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:59:00 PM would perhaps be a little believable if not for the fact that the Satmar gave a fiery Hesped. Doubtlessly because of pressure!! And that the Satmar Rebbe was not nispoel from anyone, certainly not the (Much younger) Lubavitcher Rebbe. And just which Levaya did the Rebbe go to, from those gedolim who weren’t Metzare the Rayat, Rav Moshe, Rav Henkin, the Satmar Rebbe, Kapichnitur Rebbe. If the Shanghai story is as true as this one, it’s a bunch of lies!!

"The anonymous poster of Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:59:00 PM would perhaps be a little believable if not for the fact that the Satmar gave a fiery Hesped."Since when do people really mean what they say at a hesped?

In fact he did not want to go to levayo for a number of reasons (for one the big opposition of RAK against him, t the point of onc suggesting to put him in c..., because of the virulent stance of SR re Israel etc.). A lot of pressure was put by Lakewood (on everybody in fact) as will be confirmed by Satmarer wo know the inside story. That's why he kept his hesped short.

As for Chabad, R. Gurary did attend (it would seem with consent of LR).

TwistletonUntil the 6 day war the Satmar Rebbe felt a certain commonality with the Lubavithcher Rebbe regarding Zionism. There is old DER YIDS where you can see Birchas Hashonas printed Side by side on a annual basis. Obviously things changed after the war where there shitios departed extremely but he fell ill shortly afterward.

The reactions here are oh-so-predictable, but as someone with much experience in both the Litvishe and Chassidishe kreizen, as well as being privy to much historical data of both, a few things bear remembering:

Neither Rabbonim Kotler nor Kalmanovitch were any great beacons of ahavas-yisroel. Loving your own yeshivaleit while constantly mocking all others has never been the way of Chaza"l, nor is it the way of real Torah today. Yes, RAK was a tremendous gaon, and could give a better shiur than perhaps any RY since, but this hardly excuses his way of 'lo nohagu kovod ze bazeh'. (It is brought in sforim, that this is the reason why 'Beis medrosho shel R' Akiva' did not last - to have kiyum, torah must be al yesod shel ahavas yisroel'. There are many other places in shas where this same fact is demonstrated in different ways {chagiga 22b, vechulhi}). Rather than admit that certain behaviour by certain Roshei Yeshiva may have been wrong, the self-appointed 'defenders of the litvishe way' here have chosen to shoot the messenger instead. Guess what- it doesn't work, never has, and certainly not in the age of the information superhighway. The truths of history will not disappear by being whitewashed, though Artscroll keeps trying...The sad result is a vast number of yeshivaleit who can learn a decent 'por blett gemorro', are familiar with the key 'ktzos / nesivos machlokessen', and are happy to let anyone who cares (and many who don't) know. What is quite disturbing however, is that even though so many of these bnei-teyreh are ignorant of most of Shulkhan Arukh, they have no problem branding anybody but their own clones 'kofrim, shgotzim' and worse. This is not todays generations fault. This is their yerusha from RAK, Kalmanovitch, Ruderman et al. and brought to prominence recently by Rav Schach, whose hateful verbal and written diatribes remain a prime example. This is NOT the derech (nor was it ever) championed by leaders such as RMF, SZA, RSF, Rabbis Shmuelevitz, Berenbaum, Bakst, or many others.To be continued in Part 2.

Mike Mandel, self proclaimed historian and defender of Chabad. Ignorant of age old machlokisin and even the way they viewed many Litvishe Bale Batim.Ignorantly intersperses R' Kalmanovitz and R' Ruderman is responisble for the current way of thinking.

Ignorantly quotes the list of 'good Litvaks' without firsthand knowledge about what they fealt about chasidim and Chabad in general. (Enough to keep you busy till the next video showing of REBBEY's sicha)Who is RSF?

Mike MandelRAK shiurim were not his forte since they were old school pre brisk, his FIL the Even Haozel was more in vogue with the new derech halimud in yeshivahs, but he was a charif. By the NY Eiruv story he was also very agressively claiming Chilul Shabos and Reb Moshe had to calm him down as told by reb Tovia Goldstien

"Ignorantly quotes the list of 'good Litvaks' without firsthand knowledge about what they fealt about chasidim and Chabad in general. (Enough to keep you busy till the next video showing of REBBEY's sicha)"MALBeing that you presume yourself to be the resident "self proclaimed expert" on all matters Chasiddish and Litvish (as opposed to your constant belittling of others on this blog site who disagree with you, as being "ignorant")please enlighten all us "ignoramuses" about what the above named "good Litvaks" thought and felt about Chassidim and Chabad.

Anyways, for starters, R' Leib Bakst has a long shtickle comparing the eigel with chabad- how they were living on mofsim with out a life of Torah. Forty years later, when Moshe really was niftar, they would have never have went for an eigel; after learning bihasmadah.... I could go on. Enough for now

To MAL and all the other experts: My point was never that the other ‘litvishe gedeilim’ had any great love for Chabad or chassidus at all. Rather, that notwithstanding their sometimes stark differences of opinion, they didn’t need to stoop to the snide and meanspirited style that were trademarks of the first bunch I mentioned. I meant the many brilliant attributions like Rudermans “derech avi avrohom”, RAKs “sheker ein lo raglayim” etc. How typical of (some of) you to totally miss the point. Frankly, I’m sure nobody in Chabad gives a hoot what RLB or any of the others thought about them, and vice-versa. But the derech hamachlokes of Chazal didn’t include the type of vicious snipes that seem to have been a staple of some self-appointed leaders of the teyreh-velt. Do you think R’S Kamenetzky (whom I’ve discussed this with many times) is any great lover of Chabad ?! Yet he hasn’t felt the need to filthy himself up over the years by throwing mud all around. Any real leader recognizes that other shittos also have al-ma v’al-mi lismoch. Especially, when any objective observer recognizes that the most learned of the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opponents were not exactly his superiors in Torah knowledge, put mildly.Now, if you’ll allow me the privilege….

Part 2:This is all not to say c"v that there is anything wrong with being a takif-deah, nor with believing ones own derech to be superior to any other. The mistake of Talmidei R'Akiva was not that they were resolute in their own derochim rather that they refused to acknowledge the validity of their peers’ derochim as well. The gemorro in Chagiga that I quoted earlier (22b- “boshni midivreichem b’s”) was merely a typical illustration of this point. When trying to assemble a composite of what RAK, RAKa’s, and their ilk’s shittos were regarding chabad and many other groups, one is forced to rely heavily on 2nd and 3rd hand quotes, as they were smart enough to not publish their hate in print. (Not so the late REMS, whose ‘michtavim umamarim’ serve as a good primer for ignorant mudslinging based on (as he himself often admits in the letters) loshon-hora and rechillus. So the leaking of this letter, with the promise of many more to come is of some historical value. If what emerges are examples of vicious and underhanded acts of spite against fellow frumme yidden, then so be it. The truths of history will make their own mark regardless. How sad that the Artscroll fabrication machine wasn’t in operation forty years ago – had it been, we’d now be reading about RAK’s great love for all Jews, and his ‘mesirus nefesh’ for klal yisroel. Oh, and how he actually said tehillim for the previous LR when he was ill….as if! Obviously, the LR had his own derech and shittos, which were often (mostly?) at odds with the Brisker / Litvishe / Yeshivish or whatever other agendas. So what ? Was he then not entitled to his own shittos ?! Remind me again which of the 13’ middos shehatorah nidreshes bahem’ mandates that ‘Daas Teyreh’ is decided exclusively by the moetzes, or at the agudah convention. Was Elya Svei leading by example with his halbonas-ponim-borabim at the Torah uMesorah convention fiasco a few years back? Or were the real examples the hundreds of other ‘gedeilim’ who sat by and watched a senile old man vent his vicious frustrations (likely forfeiting his eilem-habo in the process, as per B’M 58b) – Kamtza & barKamtza had nothing on him, “hoyil vehavi yasbi rabonon veloi mochu bei, shma mina ko nicha lehu!!” The LR somehow managed to pen well over thirty volumes of correspondence, and as yet, nobody has discovered any pages of vicious diatribes against his opponents, nor his branding them ‘kofrim / apikursim / reshoim ‘etc… No wonder he wouldn’t have made ‘godol’ in certain circles. There is a huge difference between prioritizing one’s own community or constituents, and attaching a condition to a general disbursement excluding ONE particular group that just happened to have different shittos – especially when we’re talking about basic survival money.Eilu elokecha yisroel….

"Yet he hasn’t felt the need to filthy himself up over the years by throwing mud all around."

He must have learnt from his mentors that were careful to have three levels of seperation from any negative comments. Maybe his consgilerie will give you some juicy quotes. Is he not intellent enough to hide his hate like the others? Don't be fooled

"Or were the real examples the hundreds of other ‘gedeilim’ who sat by and watched a senile old man vent his vicious frustrations (likely forfeiting his eilem-habo in the process, as per B’M 58b)"

Interesting. A senile person is responsible for what he does. My limad zechos for you just evaperated

I am happy that you respect true Gadlos by mentioning that the 'nelav' was shoymeh cherpusoy and didn't answer. That is true Gadlos Haadom that was demonstrated by the Chaim Berlin Rosh Yeshiva Shlita; who prevented goons from ending the speach.

"Especially, when any objective observer recognizes that the most learned of the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opponents were not exactly his superiors in Torah knowledge, put mildly"

OBJECTIVE?

The objective person on this issue doesn't exist. Kinda like the 'reasonable person' in the legal world.

"Frankly, I’m sure nobody in Chabad gives a hoot what RLB or any of the others thought about them,"

Your brain seems to have the capacity to retain a lot of info re: anti chabad statements made by Litwaks. Yet you claim you don't give a hoot. Hey, wasn't it Chazal who said, milss dloy... loy mishackey'

"Maybe he was smart enough not to print it, just like his opponents. 'Moyvey Dachkmeney'"Hows about Rav Shachs Michtovim umaimorim?It's not exactly an ode to peace, contrary to some posters on this blog who can't read or never read it to begin with.

You have a knack for the dishonest picking and choosing of comments to maintain the sonei yisroel tone of your threads. You allow for the most nonsensical bashing of non chabad jews. But you don't allow them to rebut these obnoxious, factually incorrect accusations.

Now don't get me wrong. It is not as though anyone is under the illusion that you, as part of the Chabad cabal, love anyone outside the limited, narrow world of chabad. חסר קצת But you should not pat yourself on the back for being a cutting edge, honest blogger, either.

"You have a knack for the dishonest picking and choosing of comments to maintain the sonei yisroel tone of your threads. You allow for the most nonsensical bashing of non chabad jews. But you don't allow them to rebut these obnoxious, factually incorrect accusations."Have you been following this entire thread of posts? I doubt it.The posts of Maybe A Litvak (just one example of many),who has been hogging this blog with his "peons of praise" for Lubavitch and the vulgarities he uses to describe the Rebbe,Chabad and Chassidus in general belie your above statement.

"The posts of Maybe A Litvak (just one example of many),who has been hogging this blog with his "peons of praise" for Lubavitch and the vulgarities he uses to describe the Rebbe,Chabad and Chassidus in general belie your above ."

You will not find a quote from Maybe that makes fun of 'Chassidus in general.

"It is not as though anyone is under the illusion that you, as part of the Chabad cabal, love anyone outside the limited, narrow world of chabad"The fact that Tzig allows this type of post on his site again contradicts your previous assertion."It is not as though anyone is under the illusion that you, as part of the Chabad cabal, love anyone outside the limited, narrow world of chabad".Come on now. Are we to assume that that your ilk goes beyond the "limited narrow world" of self aggrandizement and gases haruach of Flatbush or Fakewood?

"You will not find a quote from Maybe that makes fun of 'Chassidus in general."So let me understand this.Are you saying that that your usage of the word "kat" applies only to Lubavitch and what of your innuendos about both the RAYAT"Z and the lest Rebbe?

MAL:You remain, typically if unsurprisingly, fixated on your petty little parochialisms, and refuse (or are simply unable?) to see outside your blinders. So for the last time, my point here was (and is) not whether there were always machlokessen between Chabad/Litvish/MO/etc. Anybody who can read already knows that. My issue was with the despicably crass, meanspirited, and un-Torahdik attitudes fostered by some of those you call 'gedeylim' towards other Jews including (though certainly not limited to) Chabad. Against this historical backdrop, understanding how one or more such 'gedeylim' could direct $$$ be withheld from one particular group of frum Jews who they hated, becomes much easier. There wasn't simply a chilukkei-deios, this was an active program (it would seem) to deny aid to yidden in a state of real pikuach-nefesh. Should the allegations in that letter be substantiated, then whoever did this is a dog, and it doesn't matter whether you call the dog Kotler, Kalmanovitch, or any other name - retzicha is retzicha is retzicha just like a dog is a dog is a dog... As I said earlier, facing the truths of history is a prerequisite for learning from it - revisionism never really succeeds, as even Artscroll will learn one day.You silly aspersions as to my alleigances, affiliations, or motives don't really mean much, even as most litvaks couldn't care less what chassidim think of them, Chabad and otherwise. Ditto the MO.The man you subjectively call Gaon Hador may have been so in your opinion, though the various other groups claiming similar status for RYBS, RMF, the LR, the SR, and others probably have much stronger evidentiary claims. The fact that your parents, or for that matter REMS' own daughter may have been beneficiaries of R'Gorens controversial psak is of absolutely no relevance to me - I don't know why you brough it up?! The fact is that REMS had more than enough sinas-chinom to spread around for everybody- sfardim, tziyonim, chabadnikim,chilonim....you name them, he had something nasty to say. And yes, as I mentioned earlier, the contrast between what he produced to the writings of the LR are in stark contrast. So you advance the stupid argument that perhaps the LR was a similar hater to REMS, and the hate simply never made it into print ?!!! How stupid and desparate can one get! The LR is clearly the most published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century. Don't you think if he was running some type of hate-factory like the Ponovezh-of-late, that it'd be better known than just your fantasies ?And yes, some slack should be cut a senile old man who gets up at a convention and sputters hate. Yet to imply that all the hate arrived out of thin air makes your other arguments look smart. Maybe it was just all the Hershey-bars from his college days being regurgitated, or maybe he was possesed by a dybuk of Avigdor, or maybe- just maybe, a senile old man sputters whats been cooking inside, but kept under (some) wraps for some years- similar to a drunk old man...you think ?

Here's what I mean by 'objective'.The LR spoke and taught torah in front of (on average) several thousand people at a time, with no texts open in front of him. The cumulative number of hours he did this for, while quoting from hundreds of seforim/sources, is more than 10,000. Yes, over ten thousand hours of torah including mikra, mishne, shas, poskim, midrash, kabbala, chassidus, etc. One may of-course disagree with his teachings / conclucions / analyses, whatever, but the fact remains: He exhibited an unparalleled mastery of torah. The tape doesn't lie, neither the audio, nor the video, nor the many varied testimonies asserting the same.Now remind me again, MAL....WHY didn't your 'Gaon Hador' get around to printing any of his chiddushim (ki rabim heim) while he was still breathing....?

"The LR is clearly the most published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century"

Maybe a Litvack,

I can't believe you let Mike Mandel get away with his other "Freudian slip" of the Lubavitcher Rebbe being the "most promoted" torah leader!I really got a chuckle out of it.

Mandel, do you really think that mass publishing of a leaders works, especially when your group owns the publishing house means ZERO?I've never heard more circular logic!You are allowed your opinion of the Rebbe, but try not to prove it with such stupidity, please!

The point of my " ...published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century" statement was simply to point out that there aren't really any secrets about the LR - his torah / shittos/ hashkofos are all well known and on full display. Unlike the supposedly superior 'gedeylim' whom we're expected to follow blindly on somebody's say-so.Read my comments in-full, before quoting out of context.Thanks.

"What ARE you on about now, you moron ? Can't you please address the issue cogently."

Thank you for the compliment and for keeping the discussion on a high level.

When the reasonable people can't disagree that there are two sides to an issue, as a result, the verbal exchange can no longer be 'debate' and- to be precise- it must be coined a 'discussion'.

Hence, your incorporation of ad hominems are appropo.

I referred to Wolfson, because, HaRav Svey, in that famous speach, made savory comments regarding the former.

REBW gave thousands of shiurim and many of them are on tape. Now, if we print them and fill up a couple of shelves, did he suddenly become the biggest Marbitz Torah/Talmid Chchom/'Yegeh BITeyreh kiDovid?

Another point. Would it be a terrible inconvenience to you if we discuss 'quality'? Do you would like to pretend that it doesn't exist, or, you are unaware of objective* standards to gauge quality?

*'objective'- objectivity, by defniition, is the use of objective standards

Sit Tight for 3 & 4.I know that you are not mafris parsah. You defnitiely have the other siman taharah of 'shoy.. shesah- by your constant regurgitation. Therefore, you must lack the other siman taharah. *V'dal

*V'dal- means that only if one is a Chuchum, he can understand the 'rimizah.

Mike Mandel,Sad to inform you that The Lubavitcher Rebbbes teachings are hardly known where they would count most, namely the Yeshiva World.I don't know how long you've been religious and in which Jewish circles you travel, but if you want to try a small experiment, try and see how many black hat yeshivas actually stock Lubavitch books.If you do locate any check the prominence of their location.For example,Lakewood Yeshiva aka Beth Medrash Govoha has a few Sichos books tucked away in the reference Library, which are not very accesible, you have to go downstairs, search the index etc (of course you may claim that its "only one Yeshiva"!True, but they have about 5 thousand boys and married men studying there)If you for example are studying in any of the other studying halls which can be up to half a mile away you are out of luck.I never "merited" to study in Lakewood, but did get my rear end booted from quite a number of black hat yeshivas here and in Israel and can state that Likutei Sichos were nowhere to be found, maybe a lone Tanya, left off by a fervent Lubavitcher.You can also do another experiment and check your local black hat synagogue.See how many Lekutei Sichos books you''ll find.I can assure you that you won't be very succesful.Yes, you may find some of the thin weekly parsha sheets.I've seen few takers and these are furtively given out by Lubavitchers, similar to the Chinese resteraunt menus.In summary Lubavitch prints and tries to disseminate many Chabad books and publications but I have not seen to many takers.Maybe the Gutnick chumash will break down this barrier,I don't know.I'm just reporting the facts as I see them.N.B You may wonder how I would know about the doings in Lakewood NJ when I never studied there and when I'm not friend of the Mad Hatters.Well, my sons have taken yiddishkait very seriously so on a visit to see them I decided to check out the Otsar reference library and have reported back to you

Mike Mandel said... "The point of my " ...published, promoted, and continuously analyzed torah-leader of the last century" statement was simply to point out that there aren't really any secrets about the LR - his torah / shittos/ hashkofos are all well known and on full display. Unlike the supposedly superior 'gedeylim' whom we're expected to follow blindly on somebody's say-so."

Mike. Ever heard of the word ambiguity? There is more confusion about the intent of many statements of Rebbe, fundamenatl ones I might add, than anything the Gedoylem said. Unless, you are referring to shticklach in Avi Ezri. You have to be more clear

It'd be nice if you could actually address the question at hand, or at least say you don't have an answer. On what basis do you (subjectively) decide that RAK was THE gaon hador ?And does this lend his opinion any type of binding authority?

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About Me

א יונגערמאן אין עולם הזה trying to do what's right. The purpose of this blog was to provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing that is so prevalent in blogosphere. I hope I've accomplished that objective. This is the blog for you if you have a decent knowledge of Jewish history and current events.