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Thursday, June 03, 2010

Bush "Admits" Waterboarding of KSM

I don't know what the "admits" is supposed to mean in the headline; it's not as if this comes as some surprise:

"Yeah, we waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed," the former president told a business audience in Grand Rapids, Michigan. "I'd do it again to save lives."

124 Comments:

What does it mean? Just another case of the Bush clan lying to the American public and the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7030383.stmBush denies US torture use claimsUS President George W Bush (file image)Mr Bush said members of Congress had been told about the techniquesUS President George W Bush has rejected claims his administration uses torture and defended the CIA's methods.

Pat told Jon Gold he found it 'unconscionable' that NORAD lied to the commission under oath, and said they should have been referred for criminal indictments. He also agreed with Jon Gold that he didn't know why they lied, but that they definitely lied.

Can you explain to us why this shouldn't be investigated, Pat, or will you act with your usual cowardice? What happens when anyone else is found to have lied under oath, Pat?

"A second memo issued later that year advised that none of the techniques in use by the CIA would breach anti-torture legislation before Congress that barred "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment of prisoners, the New York Times said."

Wow. Pat dodges and flees again from questions he's clueless about. Just jump to your buddy Troy's baseball question, Pat. It's not like you'll discuss the facts of 9/11 on this blog...

I find that whenever Pat shuts his fat maw, it's usually because he agrees with whatever was said, like when Breakenridge said "There was no molten steel", and Pat just sat there and didn't correct him, even though he knows previously melted steel is what RJ Lee called one of the defining characteristics of the WTC dust, setting it apart from all other samples. How did the melted steel get there, Pat? What usually happens when a party is found to have lied to a government inquiry under oath, Pat?

Hey Pat, how do you reconcile calling NORAD 'unconscionable' for lying under oath, with your refusal to admit that 9/11 should be further investigated? Is it that you're disingenuous, or just butt-stupid? Maybe you should let Troy answer for you. He clearly has all the wisdom, as you can see above.

There was no molten steel. The iron microspheres reported in the RJ Lee report could easily have been caused by the steelworkers using acetylene torches on the steel during the rescue operation. The sampling took place in June of 2002.

This has always been the problem with the reliance on microspheres. In addition, there is the problem of normally occurring microspheres; the Lee Report notes that "Background Buildings" (i.e., samples taken from buildings in other cities) show a concentration of iron microspheres of about 4 parts per 10,000.

Nice try. What was the percentage of microspheres in the WTC dust, Pat? How did the amount differ from the background samples? How many torches would it take to bring the amount of iron microspheres to the percentage found in the report, Pat? Why would RJ Lee specifically attribute the spheres to 'the wtc event', and not mention the torches at all? You're intentionally mis-leading, because you don't think people will actually call you on your bullshit, Pat. Clearly not your finest hour. Man up and have a real discussion for once.

"Why would RJ Lee specifically attribute the spheres to 'the wtc event', and not mention the torches at all?"

Because, from the standpoint of their client, it didn't matter whether the contaminants came from the actual day of 9-11 or from the subsequent events. And if you read the report right in the opening section it says "The World Trade Center destruction commencing on September 11, 2001 ("WTC Event").... It does not say "The World Trade Center destruction which took place on September 11, 2001. They were careful to choose that wording.

Pat, you fat dodger: how much iron microsphere content was in the wtc dust, as a percentage, compared to the background samples? If you think it came from torches, why wouldn't you want someone to verify this claim through legitimate inquiry and investigation?

How many torches does it take to contaminate the wtc dust samples with that much iron, Pat? Should we just take your word for it?

“You’d get down below and you’d see molten steel, molten steel, running down the channel rails, like you’re in a foundry, like lava.”--- New York City firefighter Captain Philip Ruvolo. Ruvolo makes this statement in the DVD Collateral Damages (www.collateraldamages.com)

“[M]ountains of rubble 5 or 6 stories high are all that remained of the towers…. Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One Fireman told us that there was still molton steel at the heart of the towers’ remains.”--- Guy Lounsbury, a member of the New York Air National Guard, “Serving on ‘Sacred Ground,’” National Guard, December 2001

"[I]t was dripping from the molten steel" --- Joe O'Toole, a Bronx firefighter who worked for many months on the cleanup efforts, describing a steel beam he witnessed being lifted from deep below the surface, Jennifer Lin, "Recovery Worker Reflects on Months Spent at Ground Zero," Knight Ridder, May 29, 2002.

"Sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel" --- Trudy Walsh, quoting a company vice president who spent time at the site, "Handheld APP Eased Recovery Tasks," Government Computer News, September 11, 2002 www.gcn.com/21_27a/news/19930-1.html

"They showed us many fascinating slides... ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster." --- Dr. Keith Eaton, after touring Ground Zero, Structural Engineer, September 3, 2002

"As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running."--- Leslie Robertson, who was a member of the firm that designed the Twin Towers, James Williams, "WTC a Structural Success," SEAU NEWS: The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001

‘Nobody's going to be alive.' Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet.--- Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002, telling the story of Sarah Atlas, who was part of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine partner Anna.

"In some pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel."--- Dr. Allison Geyh was one of a team of public health investigators from Johns Hopkins who visited the WTC site after 9/11, Magazine of Johns Hopkins Public Health, late fall, 2001

“Perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation involves extremely thin bits of steel collected from the trade towers and from 7 World Trade Center, a 47-story high rise that also collapsed for unknown reasons. The steel apparently melted away, but no fire in any of the buildings was believed to be hot enough to melt steel outright. ...A preliminary analysis of the steel at Worcester Polytechnic Institute using electron microscopes suggests that sulfur released during the fires ---no one knows from where --- may have combined with atoms in the steel to form compounds that melt at lower temperatures."--- James Glanz and Eric Lipton, "A Search for Clues In Towers' Collapse; Engineers Volunteer to Examine Steel Debris Taken to Scrapyards," The New York Times, February 2, 2002, (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E0DE153DF931A35751C0A9649C8B63

Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible…The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 [WTC7] and 2 [Towers] are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified.--- Jonathan Barnett, Ronald R. Biederman, and R. D. Sisson, Jr., “Limited Metallurgical Examination,” Appendix C of World Trade Center Building Performance Study, FEMA, May 2002 (http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf)

Because, from the standpoint of their client, it didn't matter whether the contaminants came from the actual day of 9-11 or from the subsequent events. And if you read the report right in the opening section it says "The World Trade Center destruction commencing on September 11, 2001 ("WTC Event").... It does not say "The World Trade Center destruction which took place on September 11, 2001. They were careful to choose that wording.

Pat, excuse me, but you are such a ack of shit lier.

Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension. --- Lee RJ Group. WTC dust signature report, composition and morphology. December 2003. The RJ Lee Group report was prepared for Deutsche Bank for a “Damage Assessment” of the Deutsche Bank building at 130 Liberty Street. The Report is available on the website of the New York Environmental Law and Justice Project.http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130%20Liberty%20Street/Mike%20Davis%20LMDC%20130%20Liberty%20Documents/Signature%20of%20WTC%20dust/WTC%20Dust%20Signature.Composition%20and%20Morphology.Final.pdf

"A study of the 1991 Oakland fire that burned 3,000 homes revealed the presence of melted copper in over 80% of the burned structures, and what appeared to be melted steel in over 90% of the burned structures."

Oh my stars, Building 6 was supernanothermited by the government too! Evidently, the government loves to plant thermite in buildings for no apparent reason...

"Underground it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6."

-- Kenneth Holden, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction

RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running.

Now if they'd just waterboard Charlie Sheen for a couple hours he might confess to something and stay out of trouble. Or give him a molten steel enema.

By the way, since molten steel is not a feature of controlled demolition even when it is present, could one of the local Twoof-oids please explain their religious attachment to the idea? It's OK if you can't.

It still blows me away to think anybody would have a problem with KSM being waterboarded.

"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear." ---Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1

During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told the interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I’m sure the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time and led to several false red-alerts being placed in the US.---Khaled Shaik Mohammed, ICRC REPORT ON THE TREATMENT OF FOURTEEN “HIGH VALUE DETAINEES” IN CIA CUSTODY, February 2007, International Committee Of The Red Cross

Reason #2: Torture is UN-AMERICAN...unless your a right-wing conservative...than that explains why you are too stupid to know any better.

Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands.--- General George Washington, Commander of the Continental Army, following the Battle of Trenton, New Jersey on December 26, 1776

Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner] … I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.--- George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

"I share (the president's) resolve that torture and abuse will not be tolerated by this administration. If confirmed, I will ensure the Department of Justice aggressively pursues those responsible for such abhorrent actions. This was simply people who were morally bankrupt trying -- having fun, and I condemn that."--- Alberto Gonzalez, Confrmation hearing for Attorney General

"These so-called ill-treatments and this torturing... were not, as assumed, inflicted methodically, but were excesses committed by individual leaders, subleaders, and men who laid violent hands on internees... It is obvious that there were elements among them who would ill-treat internees, but this ill-treatment was never tolerated."--- Nazi Auschwitz Kommandant Rudolf Hoess during the Nuremberg Trails

Let me make very clear the position of my government and our country, we do not condone torture. I have never ordered torture. I will never order torture. The values of this country are such that torture is not a part of our soul and our being.--- George W. Bush, June 2004 when confronted with the undeniable, photographic evidence of torture.

"Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right and we are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law ? Many have been detained, arrested, thrown in prison and subjected to torture by regimes that fail to understand that their habits of control will not serve them well in the long term."--- George W. Bush, statement by released by the White House, June 26, 2005

"We do not torture." --- George W. Bush to reporters during a visit to Panama in November 2005

"I'm aware our national security team met on this issue. And I approved ... I told the country we did that. And I also told them it was legal. We had legal opinions that enabled us to do it." --- George W. Bush in an interview with ABC about interrogation tactics used on detainees in April 2008

"One such person who gave us information was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. … And I’m in the Oval Office and I am told that we have captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the professionals believe he has information necessary to secure the country. So I ask what tools are available for us to find information from him and they gave me a list of tools, and I said are these tools deemed to be legal? And so we got legal opinions before any decision was made…. Look, I understand why people can get carried away on this issue."--- George W. Bush, interview with Brit Hume that aired January 11, 2009, Fox News Sunday, President Bush admitted that he personally authorized the torture of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

Reason #5: The entire 9/11 Connission Report narrative as it relates to the planning and execution of the attack was based on the torture of KSM. But the army field manuel says if you torture someone you'll get unreleable information.

Chapters 5 and 7 rely heavily on information obtained from captured al Qaeda members. A number of these “detainees” have firsthand knowledge of the 9/11 plot. Assessing the truth of statements by these witnesses—sworn enemies of the United States—is challenging. Our access to them has been limited to the review of intelligence reports based on communications received from the locations where the actual interrogations take place. We submitted questions for use in the interrogations, but had no control over whether, when, or how questions of particular interest would be asked. Nor were we allowed to talk to the interrogators so that we could better judge the credibility of the detainees and clarify ambiguities in the reporting. We were told that our requests might disrupt the sensitive interrogation process. We have nonetheless decided to include information from captured 9/11 conspirators and al Qaeda members in our report. We have evaluated their statements carefully and have attempted to corroborate them with documents and statements of others. In this report, we indicate where such statements provide the foundation for our narrative. We have been authorized to identify by name only ten detainees whose custody has been confirmed officially by the U.S. government.--- The 9/11 Commission Report, page 146. The 9/11 Commission had NO DIRECT ACCESS to the detainees to question them for themselves. The information provided by the CIA and the Bush administration as to what KSM actually said, you just have to take their word for it. And even if they had Chapters 5 and 7 of the 9/11 Commission Report rely heavily on information obtained by torture.

“There are enough discrepancies and unanswered questions in The 9/11 Commission Report that under a friendly administration, the 9/11 investigation should be re-opened….Considering that the main body of evidence came from tortured confessions, it's still not entirely clear to me what happened on 9/11” --- Robert Baer, a former CIA case officer in the Middle East whose See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism became the inspiration for the award winning film Syriana. From e-mail to Larisa Alexandrovna of RAW STORY, February 2008

For example, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed described the design of planned attacks of buildings inside the U.S. and how operatives were directed to carry them out. That is valuable information for those of us who have the responsibility to protect the American people. He told us the operatives had been instructed to ensure that the explosives went off at a high -- a point that was high enough to prevent people trapped above from escaping.--- George W. Bush, September 16, 2001, During a speech in which the President argued for the gutting of the Geneva convention and the legal classification of torture, Bush made this strange comment about explosives and their placement in U.S. buildings. This quote is from the White House website.

"Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the man who killed 3,000 Americans on 9-11, blew up the World Trade Center, attacked the Pentagon, tried to blow up the White House and the Capitol Building... an evil man…"--- Richard B. Cheney, May 10, 2009, Face the Nation interview with Bob Schieffer

And Saddam Hussain is dead dead dead. Great news for the Iraqi people and the world.

"Let me make very clear the position of my government and our country, we do not condone torture. I have never ordered torture. I will never order torture. The values of this country are such that torture is not a part of our soul and our being.--- George W. Bush, June 2004 when confronted with the undeniable, photographic evidence of torture."

We don't.

And I'm sure the "photographic evidence" was real. Sure it was.

"We do not torture." --- George W. Bush to reporters during a visit to Panama in November 2005"

"--- Robert Baer, a former CIA case officer in the Middle East whose See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism became the inspiration for the award winning film Syriana"

The movie that netted about $2 million in ticket sales?

Know why?

Because the American people are tired of being fed America hating leftist lies about our country.

How many Islamonazi plots were destroyed because of the intelligence gleaned from terrorists like KSM?

So when liers like Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz...................remember those WMD in Iraq? ................tell you that plots were foiled......yoiu just have to take teir word for it.....and you do apparently....even though you have not a shred of proof that that is so.

"There is no use trying, said Alice; one can't believe impossible things. I dare say you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."--- From Alice In Wonderland

“The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda, because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda” --- George W. Bush disputes statements by the 9/11 Commission that there was no evidence of collaboration between Iraq and al-Qaeda. [CNN, 6/17/2004; Washington Post, 6/18/2004]

It is part of the genius of a great leader to make it appear as though even the most distant enemies belong to the same category.--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.--- Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003, 11 days into the war, in answer to a question during an ABC News interview.

It turns out that we have not found weapons of mass destruction. Why the intelligence proved wrong I'm not in a position to say...--- Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, October 4, 2004.

“Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us.”--- Vice President Dick Cheney, August 26, 2002.

After 11 years during which we have tried containment, sanctions, inspections, even selected military action, the end result is that Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more.”--- George W. Bush, October 7, 2002

“Saddam Hussein is a man who told the world he wouldn't have weapons of mass destruction, but he's got them.” --- George W. Bush, November 3, 2002.

"We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories … And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." --- George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 30, 2003

“Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq. ... We removed a declared enemy of America who had the capability of producing weapons of mass murder.”--- George W. Bush, July 12, 2004.

“Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be somewhere! ”--- President Bush, joking about his administration's failure to find WMDs in Iraq as he narrated a comic slideshow during the Radio & TV Correspondents' Association dinner, Washington, D.C., March 24, 2004

"Anonymous said... “The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda, because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda” --- George W. Bush disputes statements by the 9/11 Commission that there was no evidence of collaboration between Iraq and al-Qaeda."

Pat, are you going to tell us how much previously-melted steel was in the WTC dust compared to the background samples, according to the chart by the RJ Lee group?

[The spheres]'could easily have been caused by the steelworkers using acetylene torches' -Pat Curley

Speculation-as-fact from Curley the Coward, yet again. How many torches would it take, Pat? What honest person wouldn't want the evidence investigated to make sure their pet guesses weren't total bullshit, Pat? Maybe that's why you don't want them to be investigated? Did Mark Roberts tell you they could have come from the torches? Is that why you accept it without question? Maybe you got it from Lazarus Long?

'There was no molten steel' -Pat Curley.

What source do you have for this, and why do so many people on your own blog dispute your assertion? Is that "critical thinking", Pat? Please show your work.

And don't forget to tell us why Shyam Sunder said freefall would be impossible during 7's collapse, just before admitting to it in the NIST report. Show your work.

“He (Saddam) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq, and these are policies that we are going to keep in place, but we are always willing to review them to make sure that they are being carried out in a way that does not affect the Iraqi people but does affect the Iraqi regime's ambitions and the ability to acquire weapons of mass destruction, and we had a good conversation on this issue.”--- Colin Powell, February 24, 2001

Iraqi denials of supporting terrorism take their place alongside the other Iraqi denials of weapons of mass destruction. It is all a web of lies. ...We have firsthand descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and rails.--- Secretary of State Colin Powell to the UN Security Council, February 5, 2003

"“Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us.”--- Vice President Dick Cheney, August 26, 2002.

The conflagration activated processes that caused materials to form into spherical particles such as metals (e.g., Fe, Zn, Pb) and spherical or vesicular silicates or fly ash. The heat generated during the WTC Event caused some plastics to form residual vesicular carbonaceous particles, and paints to form residual spherical particles. Some metals, plastics and other materials were vaporized thus producing new chemicals that were deposited onto the surfaces of solid particulate matter, such as asbestos, quartz, and mineral wool. These dust and heat-processed constituents are not typically found associated with typical office building environments. These types of particles are classic examples of high temperature or combustion by-products and are generally absent in typical office dust. ...Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension. --- Lee RJ Group. WTC dust signature report, composition and morphology. December 2003. The RJ Lee Group report was prepared for Deutsche Bank for a “Damage Assessment” of the Deutsche Bank building at 130 Liberty Street. The Report is available on the website of the New York Environmental Law and Justice Project.http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130%20Liberty%20Street/Mike%20Davis%20LMDC%20130%20Liberty%20Documents/Signature%20of%20WTC%20dust/WTC%20Dust%20Signature.Composition%20and%20Morphology.Final.pdf

"After 11 years during which we have tried containment, sanctions, inspections, even selected military action, the end result is that Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more.”--- George W. Bush, October 7, 2002"

Lazarus Long....you deceitful piece of right-wing filth. The facts were fixed around a policy. It was cooked to order just like your ass.

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime’s record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.--- Excerpt from the Downing Street Memo, SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL - UK EYES ONLY, To: DAVID MANNING, From: Matthew Rycroft, July 23, 2002. Director of SIS (aka MI6), Sir Richard Dearlove, identified as 'C' in the meeting minutes, heads the UK's foreign intelligence service

The group that was dealing with preparations for the Iraq war came back and said they’re no longer interested. And we said, “Well, what about the intel?” And they said, “Well, this isn’t about intel anymore. This is about regime change.”--- Tyler Drumheller , former CIA official who oversaw intelligence operations for the CIA in Europe, a 26-year veteran of the agency.

The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming. And they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy. It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an intelligence failure. This was a policy failure. The idea of going after Iraq was U.S. policy. It was going to happen one way or the other.--- Tyler Drumheller , former CIA official who oversaw intelligence operations for the CIA in Europe, a 26-year veteran of the agency.

[T]here was no intelligence evidence of significant holdings of CW [chemical warfare], BW [biological warfare] or nuclear material…There was, moreover, no intelligence or assessment during my time in the job that Iraq had any intention to launch an attack against its neighbours or the UK or the US.What had changed was the Government's determination to present available evidence in a different light."--- Carne Ross, Britain's key negotiator at the UN, who helped negotiate several UN security resolutions on Iraq, Testimony to the Butler inquiry which investigated intelligence blunders in the run-up to the conflict. December 15, 2006

What I saw was a cabal between the vice president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.---Larry Wilkerson, Former secretary of state Colin Powell's ex-chief of staff

Totalitarian regimes mobilize and make use of mass political participation, and often are led by charismatic cult figures. Examples of such cult figures in modern history are Mao Tse-tung (China) and Josef Stalin (Soviet Union), who led left-wing regimes, and Adolf Hitler (Germany) and Benito Mussolini (Italy), who led right-wing regimes.

Right-wing totalitarian regimes (particularly the Nazis) have arisen in relatively advanced societies, relying on the support of traditional economic elites to attain power. In contrast, left-wing totalitarian regimes have arisen in relatively undeveloped countries through the unleashing of revolutionary violence and terror. Such violence and terror are also the primary tools of right-wing totalitarian regimes to maintain compliance with authority.

Nazism refers to the totalitarian Fascist ideology and policies espoused and practiced by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Worker's Party from 1920-1945. Nazism stressed the superiority of the Aryan, its destiny as the Master Race to rule the world over other races, and a violent hatred of Jews, which it blamed for all of the problems of Germany. Nazism also provided for extreme nationalism which called for the unification of all German-speaking peoples into a single empire. The economy envisioned for the state was a form of corporative state socialism, although members of the party who were leftists (and would generally support such an economic system over private enterprise) were purged from the party in 1934.

Totalitarian regimes mobilize and make use of mass political participation, and often are led by charismatic cult figures. Examples of such cult figures in modern history are Mao Tse-tung (China) and Josef Stalin (Soviet Union), who led left-wing regimes, and Adolf Hitler (Germany) and Benito Mussolini (Italy), who led right-wing regimes.

Right-wing totalitarian regimes (particularly the Nazis) have arisen in relatively advanced societies, relying on the support of traditional economic elites to attain power. In contrast, left-wing totalitarian regimes have arisen in relatively undeveloped countries through the unleashing of revolutionary violence and terror. Such violence and terror are also the primary tools of right-wing totalitarian regimes to maintain compliance with authority.

Nazism refers to the totalitarian Fascist ideology and policies espoused and practiced by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Worker's Party from 1920-1945. Nazism stressed the superiority of the Aryan, its destiny as the Master Race to rule the world over other races, and a violent hatred of Jews, which it blamed for all of the problems of Germany. Nazism also provided for extreme nationalism which called for the unification of all German-speaking peoples into a single empire. The economy envisioned for the state was a form of corporative state socialism, although members of the party who were leftists (and would generally support such an economic system over private enterprise) were purged from the party in 1934.

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

-- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."

-- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities"

-- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration’s policy towards Iraq, I don’t think there can be any question about Saddam’s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts."

-- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002

Notice who said this: Nostrildamus himself, as stupid and partsan a hack as the reactionary left can stomach.

"Totalitarian regimes mobilize and make use of mass political participation, and often are led by charismatic cult figures. Examples of such cult figures in modern history are Mao Tse-tung (China) [REACTIONAY LEFTIST] and Josef Stalin (Soviet Union) [REACTIONARY LEFTIST], who led left-wing regimes, and Adolf Hitler (Germany)[REACTIONARY LEFTIST] and Benito Mussolini (Italy) {REACTIONARY LEFTIST], who also led left-wing regimes."

Where do you think Orwell in his 1984 got this idea from when he wrote about IngSoc (English Socialism) the political philosophy of THE PARTY? 1984 was written in 1949 when WWII was very fresh in everybody's mind...especially in England.

Orwell wrote:

...The official ideology (IngSoc)abounds with contradictions even where there is no practical reason for them. Thus, the Party rejects and vilifies every principle for which the Socialist movement originally stood, and it chooses to do this in the name of Socialism.

That was the whole idea of DoubleThink (something you practice all the time....especially when you keep writing that there was no molton metal when steel when faced with voluminous evidence to the contrary)

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself―that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word "doublethink" involved the use of doublethink.

You have two parties in the US. There is not much difference between them. One is mostly right of center and the other is far right of center. And they both lie.

After 9/11 the country was tramatized ....all the demoRats got on the same band-wagon. They knew politically what side it was expiedient to be on if they had any chance of being re-elected in that political climate.

The anthrax letters that were sent to Dashle and Leahy helped of course to convince them what side they better be on. Rememer? You're either with us or against us?

...remember the anthrax letters? They were supposed the have been mailed from a mailbox in NJ with an arabic letter yadda yadda yadda We are now told that a US goverment bio-weapons research scientist from Fort Dietriech, Maryland....HE DID IT!!!!

Oh....schucks....he killed himself...guess there won't be a trial. The government doesn't have to produce any evidence in a court of law.

There was no molten steel. The iron microspheres reported in the RJ Lee report could easily have been caused by the steelworkers using acetylene torches on the steel during the rescue operation. The sampling took place in June of 2002.

This has always been the problem with the reliance on microspheres. In addition, there is the problem of normally occurring microspheres; the Lee Report notes that "Background Buildings" (i.e., samples taken from buildings in other cities) show a concentration of iron microspheres of about 4 parts per 10,000.

Please provide a time-displaying when the earliest dust sample was collected from either a private individual or a government agency.

Second, your committing a fallacy of omission by relying on ONLY microspheres. When you combine that with the chemical tests, molten iron and steel, the microspheres.

Third, when the chemical laden chips are heated, they ignite in a massive energy release CREATING iron microspheres.

“If you've retired, you don't have anything to worry about. The third time I've said that. I'll probably say it three more times, see, in my line of work you gotta keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kinda catapult the propaganda.”--- George W. Bush, May 24, 2005

The great masses of people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. Especially if it is repeated over and over.--- Adolph Hitler

“We're a peaceful nation . . . We did not ask for this mission, but we will fulfill it. The name of today's military operation is Enduring Freedom. We defend not only our precious freedoms, but also the freedom of people everywhere to live and raise their children free from fear.”--- George W. Bush speaking in the aftermath of 9/11

“The German people are not by nature a war-like people . . . They love peace, but they love honor and freedom just as much.”--- Adolf Hitler in a speech delivered at the Reichstag in February 1938

“Certain foreign newspapers have said that we fell on Austria with brutal methods. I can only say; even in death they cannot stop lying. I have in the course of my political struggle won much love from my people, but when I crossed the former frontier [into Austria] there met me such a stream of love as I have never experienced. Not as tyrants have we come, but as liberators.”--- Adolf Hitler

There's no telling how many wars it will take to secure freedom in the homeland.--- George W Bush, August 5, 2002

An evil exists that threatens every man, woman, and child of this great nation. We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our homeland. --- Adolf Hitler, proposing the creation of his homeland security group, the Gestapo

“WHY is this man in the White House?! The majority of Americans did NOT vote for him. WHY is he there? And I tell you this morning that he's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this.” --- Lt Gen William Boykin, speaking of George W Bush, The New York Times, October 17, 2003

“God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany.”--- Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler

"I share (the president's) resolve that torture and abuse will not be tolerated by this administration. If confirmed, I will ensure the Department of Justice aggressively pursues those responsible for such abhorrent actions. This was simply people who were morally bankrupt trying -- having fun, and I condemn that."--- Alberto Gonzalez, Confrmation hearing for Attorney General

"These so-called ill-treatments and this torturing... were not, as assumed, inflicted methodically, but were excesses committed by individual leaders, subleaders, and men who laid violent hands on internees... It is obvious that there were elements among them who would ill-treat internees, but this ill-treatment was never tolerated."--- Nazi Auschwitz Kommandant Rudolf Hoess during the Nuremberg Trails

“The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda, because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda” --- George W. Bush disputes statements by the 9/11 Commission that there was no evidence of collaboration between Iraq and al-Qaeda. [CNN, 6/17/2004; Washington Post, 6/18/2004]

“The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.”--- Adolf Hitler

"Where do you think Orwell in his 1984 got this idea from when he wrote about IngSoc"

From his experience with the Communists while he was fighting in the Spanish Civil War.

"To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic"

Sounds like your average run-of-the-mill twoooofer™ to me.

They're insane and cognitive dissonance is a way of life.

"Regarding all the quotes from the Democrats."

I proved you a liar.

Deal.

"You have two parties in the US. There is not much difference between them."

Except for that whole left/right, Republicans want to govern/Democrats want to rule thing.

I'm with Dubya on this one. If putting a flannel on someone's face and pouring water on it is what it takes to prevent Koranic Literalism, then so be it. Even if it means Mohammedans and their fellow travellers get their knickers in a twist over it.

Crimes are crimes, whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct which we would not be willing to have invoked against us.--- Robert H Jackson, chief of counsel for the United States at the Nuremberg trials of Nazi leaders at the end of the Second World War.

During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[99] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[100] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[101][102][103]

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[104] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again... I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[33]

In 1947, the United States prosecuted a Japanese civilian who had served in World War II as an interpreter for the Japanese military, Yukio Asano, for "Violation of the Laws and Customs of War," asserting that he "did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for" prisoners, but, far worse, that he also "did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture" prisoners of war. Asano received a sentence of 15 years of hard labor.[110] The charges against Asano included "beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward."[177] The specifications in the charges with regard to "water torture" consisted of "pouring water up [the] nostrils" of one prisoner, "forcing water into [the] mouths and noses" of two other prisoners, and "forcing water into [the] nose" of a fourth prisoner.[178]

" BlowSmoke said... Crimes are crimes, whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct which we would not be willing to have invoked against us.--- Robert H Jackson, chief of counsel for the United States at the Nuremberg trials of Nazi leaders at the end of the Second World War."

Yeah, treating some fucking murderous islamofascist like he was a fraterity pledge is EXACTLY the same as genocide.