Found it right off the bat, here you go, and keep in mind there is a lot of MEAT in these verses.

Romans 8: 1 - 17, Life Through the Spirit "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.[b] 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. (man's knowledge: fleshly thinking, not able to, or refusing to recognize the Spiritual)

9 You(those who believe and have accepted Jesus as Lord), however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” [b]16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs —heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. (remember my discussion on the 3 part man? This is where the Spirit bonds with our spirit therefore sealing us into the family of God.)

Baptism is a symbolic gesture that illustrate to your peers that you are dying to self, or the flesh, and choosing to be "resurrected" with Christ. It is symbolism, but an important gesture nonetheless. Even Jesus did it in the book of John. But the act itself doesn't create the born again scenario, because that's a human action.

The process of being born again is a conscious decision on the part of the person who willingly is asking the Lord to come into their lives as Lord and Savior. This means that we recognize that we are fallen, and unable to save ourselves. In choosing to accept Christ as Lord we are taking ourselves off the pedastal of our lives and placing God's son Jesus on the pedastal. By this act of submission, and by accepting his free offer of eternal life, we are being welcomed into the family. That is the first step in the relationship. It's like checking the box yes, {do you like me check ( ) yes or ( ) no, check one).} But as with any relationship, you now have the remainder of your days to get to know Him, and to develop the relationship. I can't explain it with any kind of concrete wording because it is an experience, but it is so overwhelming emotionally, especially at first.

Once the "honeymoon" phase is over, the work begins. Everything will rise up against you, self, sin, human relations, thoughts and so on. But it is in this adversity that you develop strength, understanding and you build the bonds of the relationship. You get to see the Lord work in your life, and you are strengthened and encouraged as each episode unfolds and eventually is overcome. I guarantee that you will not be perfect, and that you will still sin, because it's in our nature, but I also assure you that if you choose to go this path it is the most rewarding thing you could ever do.

So long story short, being born again is actually a dying process, you die to self by making your decision, and by becoming a member of the family through your choice, you've been "born into" the Spiritual realm of God. The rest is learning how to converse, and see, and hear from him. And I will let you know that as you learn to read the Bible and the living word speaks to you, you will come to understand.

But unless you've been born again, the Scripture will be a history book of fables and might as well be Braille. Make sense?

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 23rd, 2012, 10:50 am

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

UK Lion wrote:

49ers wrote:

I.E. wrote:

It's pretty clear, from real math from people that understand math... that our existence is not only not a miracle... but is actually not a surprise at all. We mathmatically EXPECT, given what we know about the universe, that there is life out their because of the sheer volume of opportunities, statistically.

I was just about to chime in with the same as this, but opposite. I have 3 college degrees, 2 of them in Mathematics. The majority of math teacher and professors and fellow cohorts that I know believe in some form of a higher being BECAUSE of the math. The sheer probability that a rock with the proper gravitational pull, with the proper distance from the sun, that has the right amount of land vs water, that has the ability to create millions of species that serve purposes towards each other, is so astronomically low, that we can't possibly exist without there being some sort of a reason behind it all.

Someone wins the lottery every week. Doesn't mean they cheated.

I have 3 college degrees myself - and a considerable amount of math & science. I call BS on the math man, for multipe reasons.

One - because a scientist would never say "can't possibly exist, because...", after referencing the amount of land, water, species, etc. All that stuff is very easily explainable. The vast majority of scientists believe that, given the shear volume of opportunities (not "chances")... there is almost certainly life elsewhere in the universe - and certainly not on a rock with the exact characteristics and composition as ours. The math guy's argument is a high level earth-centric one that would be offered by a religious person, and is not being argued from a scientific perspective.

Two - Life (DNA, genes) don't operate by accident, and random chance. As Dawkins has pointed out (in his not-so-friendly ways, but still correctly), life is vicious, and selfish/assertive, and creative - and the multitude of ways in which it has adapted over time is formidable. Once you understand how all that stuff works, the diversity and adaptability we see is not surprising.

Three - the numbers are so huge, and the variables are so great, you can't possibly calculate the odds of primitive life forming, and then the DNA model & "selfish genes" developing over time to result in what we have now. I wouldn't make the point that the probability of life on earth has been calculated - it can't be. So someone can't rightfully say that the odds are against it - because nobody knows the odds. In my opinion, it is pretty weak-minded to say that something can't happen just because you can't calculate it. Especially when you're observing dramatic evidence that it did happen.

August 24th, 2012, 4:20 pm

regularjoe12

Def. Coordinator – Teryl Austin

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4216Location: Davison Mi

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

I.E. wrote:

UK Lion wrote:

49ers wrote:

I.E. wrote:

It's pretty clear, from real math from people that understand math... that our existence is not only not a miracle... but is actually not a surprise at all. We mathmatically EXPECT, given what we know about the universe, that there is life out their because of the sheer volume of opportunities, statistically.

I was just about to chime in with the same as this, but opposite. I have 3 college degrees, 2 of them in Mathematics. The majority of math teacher and professors and fellow cohorts that I know believe in some form of a higher being BECAUSE of the math. The sheer probability that a rock with the proper gravitational pull, with the proper distance from the sun, that has the right amount of land vs water, that has the ability to create millions of species that serve purposes towards each other, is so astronomically low, that we can't possibly exist without there being some sort of a reason behind it all.

Someone wins the lottery every week. Doesn't mean they cheated.

I have 3 college degrees myself - and a considerable amount of math & science. I call BS on the math man, for multipe reasons.

One - because a scientist would never say "can't possibly exist, because...", after referencing the amount of land, water, species, etc. All that stuff is very easily explainable. The vast majority of scientists believe that, given the shear volume of opportunities (not "chances")... there is almost certainly life elsewhere in the universe - and certainly not on a rock with the exact characteristics and composition as ours. The math guy's argument is a high level earth-centric one that would be offered by a religious person, and is not being argued from a scientific perspective.

Two - Life (DNA, genes) don't operate by accident, and random chance. As Dawkins has pointed out (in his not-so-friendly ways, but still correctly), life is vicious, and selfish/assertive, and creative - and the multitude of ways in which it has adapted over time is formidable. Once you understand how all that stuff works, the diversity and adaptability we see is not surprising.

Three - the numbers are so huge, and the variables are so great, you can't possibly calculate the odds of primitive life forming, and then the DNA model & "selfish genes" developing over time to result in what we have now. I wouldn't make the point that the probability of life on earth has been calculated - it can't be. So someone can't rightfully say that the odds are against it - because nobody knows the odds. In my opinion, it is pretty weak-minded to say that something can't happen just because you can't calculate it. Especially when you're observing dramatic evidence that it did happen.

You mean like saying god cant posibly exist? lol

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

August 24th, 2012, 5:03 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

regularjoe12 wrote:

I.E. wrote:

UK Lion wrote:

49ers wrote:

I.E. wrote:

It's pretty clear, from real math from people that understand math... that our existence is not only not a miracle... but is actually not a surprise at all. We mathmatically EXPECT, given what we know about the universe, that there is life out their because of the sheer volume of opportunities, statistically.

I was just about to chime in with the same as this, but opposite. I have 3 college degrees, 2 of them in Mathematics. The majority of math teacher and professors and fellow cohorts that I know believe in some form of a higher being BECAUSE of the math. The sheer probability that a rock with the proper gravitational pull, with the proper distance from the sun, that has the right amount of land vs water, that has the ability to create millions of species that serve purposes towards each other, is so astronomically low, that we can't possibly exist without there being some sort of a reason behind it all.

Someone wins the lottery every week. Doesn't mean they cheated.

I have 3 college degrees myself - and a considerable amount of math & science. I call BS on the math man, for multipe reasons.

One - because a scientist would never say "can't possibly exist, because...", after referencing the amount of land, water, species, etc. All that stuff is very easily explainable. The vast majority of scientists believe that, given the shear volume of opportunities (not "chances")... there is almost certainly life elsewhere in the universe - and certainly not on a rock with the exact characteristics and composition as ours. The math guy's argument is a high level earth-centric one that would be offered by a religious person, and is not being argued from a scientific perspective.

Two - Life (DNA, genes) don't operate by accident, and random chance. As Dawkins has pointed out (in his not-so-friendly ways, but still correctly), life is vicious, and selfish/assertive, and creative - and the multitude of ways in which it has adapted over time is formidable. Once you understand how all that stuff works, the diversity and adaptability we see is not surprising.

Three - the numbers are so huge, and the variables are so great, you can't possibly calculate the odds of primitive life forming, and then the DNA model & "selfish genes" developing over time to result in what we have now. I wouldn't make the point that the probability of life on earth has been calculated - it can't be. So someone can't rightfully say that the odds are against it - because nobody knows the odds. In my opinion, it is pretty weak-minded to say that something can't happen just because you can't calculate it. Especially when you're observing dramatic evidence that it did happen.

You mean like saying god cant posibly exist? lol

Who said God can't possibly exist?

August 24th, 2012, 5:06 pm

regularjoe12

Def. Coordinator – Teryl Austin

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4216Location: Davison Mi

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

sorry...didnt mean to imply you specifically...my bad

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

August 24th, 2012, 5:09 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

regularjoe12 wrote:

sorry...didnt mean to imply you specifically...my bad

No problem. I've never heard anyone say that... it is far far different than even the most assertive pointing out that there is no evidence of God's existence. It would be an insane statement that could never be proved - ever.

August 24th, 2012, 5:43 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Eric,

How or what would you use to discover Spirit?

Can you authenticate Spirit, or the Spiritual?

Can you prove it?

I ask these things, because it seems to play into the conversation. How can we mortals understand, and/or explain the Spiritual? Several people have stated they will believe God when they see him, but quite frankly that will be too late.

I don't want to upset you by adding more Scripture, but there is a distinct reference that states that the Heavens and the Earth CRY OUT to his existence. There is another point that states that all of the evidence that we need to prove his existence has already been given, at some point we just need to believe. Again, it's the "water's warm, come on in" statement.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to illustrate that Spiritual things can not be understood, until you're a member of the family. You stated yourself that things you read and learned about as a young Catholic boy upset you with there absurdity, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Does the truth need people to believe it in order for it to be the truth? Or is it just what it is?

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 24th, 2012, 7:39 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Absolutely not - people don't need to believe something for it to be true. And having a very very large number of people believe something does not have any bearing on it's truth status. At one point, most of humanity thought the earth was flat, or that the sun revolved around us. There were documented stories about sea monsters out there at the end of the earth. We've learned that those things are not true - because they are testable/falsifiable. The truth is what it is... and we eventually discover it.

And no - there is no test for the spiritual... all that is in the same supernatural realm with God - can't be disproved. There's no hard evidence about spirits, ghosts, or whatever - just people making money by making claims. And you gotta love the ghost hunters shows... great entertainment watching people's minds play tricks on them, while they draw immediately conclusions about the presence of ghosts without considering rationale explanations.

The "all the evidence has already been given" is a cop-out, really. You can't just conclude something came from where you want it to come from, simply because it exists. A supernatural creator is just one of many theories. Unfortunately, a supernatural creator cannot be tested & falsified.

I do agree that if God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him. A very large percent of the people need the structure, certainty, and rule sets. People need a reason to do things, or not do things. Be good, and Santa will bring you presents. Or 72 virgins. Or in your next life you'll be a human instead of a frog. Or, if you dont' kill people, steal & other bad things, you will go to heaven.

August 25th, 2012, 11:06 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

So does this mean that my statement about having to try the water to see for yourself is correct?

We can't prove it any other way, and so it needs to be experienced, right? Just curious

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 25th, 2012, 12:40 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

So does this mean that my statement about having to try the water to see for yourself is correct?

We can't prove it any other way, and so it needs to be experienced, right? Just curious

No... because you feeling better in the water doesn't mean anything at all, other than you're convinced it means something - or want to convince others for some reason. The notion that you can experience something because you have a special circumstance is one of the selling points of religion... it's the carrot for you that leads to an ultimate reward that you've been convinced exists, and like the naked emperor you wouldn't admit you can't see/feel something that others claim to, because it would mean you weren't special & your reward would be in question. That's another way of saying it's all in your mind.

August 25th, 2012, 1:12 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Pablo wrote:

Peace out brothers and Wags, your turn...

Sorry, I realized I never responded to this. My personal belief system may be best described as a Solitary Witch.

For those interested in more info, you can check these out:

PS: Witch & Witchcraft does not equal Wicca

Peace, light & love

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

September 10th, 2012, 10:58 am

regularjoe12

Def. Coordinator – Teryl Austin

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4216Location: Davison Mi

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

TheRealWags wrote:

Pablo wrote:

Peace out brothers and Wags, your turn...

Sorry, I realized I never responded to this. My personal belief system may be best described as a Solitary Witch.

For those interested in more info, you can check these out:

PS: Witch & Witchcraft does not equal Wicca

Peace, light & love

I KNEW IT! you silly Druid you!!! I am interested in hearing about your percieved difference between witchcraft and wiccan. As far as i knew they were pretty much one and the same...

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

September 10th, 2012, 11:28 am

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

regularjoe12 wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

Pablo wrote:

Peace out brothers and Wags, your turn...

Sorry, I realized I never responded to this. My personal belief system may be best described as a Solitary Witch.

For those interested in more info, you can check these out:

PS: Witch & Witchcraft does not equal Wicca

Peace, light & love

I KNEW IT! you silly Druid you!!!

LOL

As a point of clarification, Druidism is also a form of Paganism.

regularjoe12 wrote:

I am interested in hearing about your percieved difference between witchcraft and wiccan. As far as i knew they were pretty much one and the same...

My understanding of Wicca is that it is a 'form' of Witchcraft. Think of it along the lines of Lutheranism, Mormonism, Episcopalian-ism, etc being forms of Christianity.

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

September 10th, 2012, 11:33 am

regularjoe12

Def. Coordinator – Teryl Austin

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4216Location: Davison Mi

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

ok we may be debating semantics but i kinda understood it the other way around. I was under the impression that the wicca..thing..was the blanket (I.E. Christianity) and the various sects ( witches, warlocks , druidism, treehuggers, certain variations of vampirism, ect) were the various branches. do I have that backwards?

and OF COURSE I know thats Druids are pagan...im pretty sure it was they are the reason we celebrate Xmas on dec 25th. they were having all that fun, and we christians felt left out!

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

September 10th, 2012, 12:04 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

regularjoe12 wrote:

ok we may be debating semantics but i kinda understood it the other way around. I was under the impression that the wicca..thing..was the blanket (I.E. Christianity) and the various sects ( witches, warlocks , druidism, treehuggers, certain variations of vampirism, ect) were the various branches. do I have that backwards?

To expand upon my initial description (as it seems to have been lacking)

Therefore, “Pagan” is an umbrella term that includes many different spiritual belief systems – Wicca is just one of many.Think of it this way:

Christian > Lutheran or Methodist or Jehovah’s Witness

Pagan > Wiccan or Asatru or Dianic or Eclectic Witchcraft

As if that wasn’t confusing enough, not all people who practice witchcraft are Wiccans, or even Pagans. There are a few witches who embrace the Christian god as well as a Wiccan goddess – the Christian Witch movement is alive and well! There are also people out there who practice Jewish mysticism, or "Jewitchery", and atheist witches who practice magic but do not follow a deity.

FYI - Warlock is not a good term and will most likely be taken as an insult

Quote:

In many parts of the Pagan community, mention the word "warlock" and you'll be met with disapproving sneers and head shaking. Mention it to your non-Pagan friends, and they'll automatically think of movie baddies like Julian Sands, or the evil warlocks from Charmed. So what's the deal with the word warlock anyway? Why is it considered such a negative thing in modern Paganism?

Let's look at the different perceptions of warlock. There's one variation in which it's alleged to be a translation of a Saxon word, wǣrloga that means "oath-breaker." Naturally, no one wants to be called an oath-breaker, so folks tend to get up in arms about the use of warlock. Consequently, a lot of Wiccans and Pagans tend to distance themselves from the word.