why don´t they close threads like this?? I want these forums to be fun places to discuss silly go happy otaku things, not serious stuffs like these thingies. It´s depressing and all that~ Oh well like usual I will just act like this thread doesn´t exist *goes to post in the ´I wanna build a snowman thread * XD

If you don't want these type of threads then maybe you should pop over to the more goofy threads, they're under anime/manga/games etc. General is suppose to be about anything, if you don't like it then don't comment on it.

I fail to understand how sympathizing with some who has been raped is a big problem? I think this world lacks too much sympathy and applies too much blame.

I see you don't understand what I was saying...

It's easier to believe someone when they claim something bad have happened to them, thus it's easier to lie and get away with it without any solid proof of that ever happening.

It takes a really scummy person to lie about something like rape, but it takes a scummier person to tell a rape victim it was her fault. I'm sure some women have lied but its the same way many other people abuse the system in a plethora of ways in the end as for now the amount is negligible when dealing with the fact the 1 out of 3 women are raped through out their lives.

your stats are utter bullshit. I've been trying to post three or four times but CR's fucking up.

Some random shit:
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=317

Sexual Violence Takes Many Forms
Sexual harassment ranges from degrading remarks, gestures, and jokes to indecent exposure, being touched, grabbed, pinched, or brushed against in a sexual way [1]. In employment settings, it has been defined as "unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct that enters into employment decisions or conduct that unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment" [2].
Read more about civil rights and sexual harassment in an NIJ research report.
See also Sexual Harassment on the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Web site.
Sexual assault covers a wide range of unwanted behaviors—up to but not including penetration—that are attempted or completed against a victim's will or when a victim cannot consent because of age, disability, or the influence of alcohol or drugs. Sexual assault may involve actual or threatened physical force, use of weapons, coercion, intimidation, or pressure and may include—
Intentional touching of the victim's genitals, anus, groin, or breasts.
Voyeurism.
Exposure to exhibitionism.
Undesired exposure to pornography.
Public display of images that were taken in a private context or when the victim was unaware.
Rape definitions vary by state and in response to legislative advocacy. Most statutes currently define rape as nonconsensual oral, anal, or vaginal penetration of the victim by body parts or objects using force, threats of bodily harm, or by taking advantage of a victim who is incapacitated or otherwise incapable of giving consent. Incapacitation may include mental or cognitive disability, self-induced or forced intoxication, status as minor, or any other condition defined by law that voids an individual's ability to give consent.
Not surprisingly, rates of rape also vary widely among studies according to how the crime is defined, what population is studied, and what methodology is used. Estimates range from as low as 2 percent [3], as quoted in The Epidemic of Rape and Child Sexual Abuse in the United States [4], to 56 percent [5]. The most recent and methodologically rigorous studies show that sexual assault still occurs at rates that approximate those first identified more than 20 years ago when Koss, Gidycz, and Wisiewski [6] found that approximately 27.5% of college women reported experiences that met the legal criteria for rape.
Sexual assault and rape are generally defined as felonies. During the past 30 years, states have enacted rape shield laws to protect victims and criminal and civil legal remedies to punish perpetrators. The effectiveness of these laws in accomplishing their goals is a topic of concern.
Estimates also vary regarding how likely a victim is to report victimization. Traditionally, rape notification rates differed depending on whether the victim knew the perpetrator — those who knew a perpetrator were often less likely to report the crime. This gap, however, may be closing."

As to those quoted numbers.. it's not 27.7% it's 27.7 in a thousand.,

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

"At first glance, one might conclude that the risk of rape victimization for
college women is not high; “only” about 1 in 36 college women (2.8 percent)
experience a completed rape or attempted rape in an academic year.
Such a conclusion, however, misses critical, and potentially disquieting,
implications. The figures measure victimization for slightly more than half a
year (6.91 months). Projecting results beyond this reference period is problematic
for a number of reasons, such as assuming that the risk of victimization
is the same during summer months and remains stable over a person’s
time in college. However, if the 2.8 percent victimization figure is calculated
for a 1-year period, the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of
college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of
a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of
completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational
institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.18"

I want a statistician to explain exactly how 2% becomes 25% in 5 years.

Looking at exhibit 4, it is clear that estimates from the comparison study for
completed rape, attempted rape, and threats of rape are considerably lower
than the respective estimates from the main study. The percentage of the
sample that reported experiencing a completed rape in the comparison study
was 11 times smaller than the percentage of victims in the main component
(0.16 percent compared with 1.7 percent). The attempted rape estimate from
the comparison component was six times smaller than the attempted rape
estimate (0.18 percent compared with 1.1 percent) from NCWSV. A similar
pattern was evident for threats of rape; the estimate based on the comparison
component was four times smaller than the NCWSV estimate (0.07 percent
compared with 0.3 percent).
What accounts for these differences? Given the similarities between the two
studies, it would appear that the differences most likely stem from the wide
range of behaviorally specific screen questions used in the NCWSV study.

an 11 times difference, and such huge disparities between reported and unreported... If this were biology or physics, those sorts of results would be laughed out.

Victimhood and sympathy have been turned into weapons these days. I don't care how heartless, merciless and god damned black hearted I appear these days. Appeals to sympathy should not be allowed.

why don´t they close threads like this?? I want these forums to be fun places to discuss silly go happy otaku things, not serious stuffs like these thingies. It´s depressing and all that~ Oh well like usual I will just act like this thread doesn´t exist *goes to post in the ´I wanna build a snowman thread * XD

If you don't want these type of threads then maybe you should pop over to the more goofy threads, they're under anime/manga/games etc. General is suppose to be about anything, if you don't like it then don't comment on it.

I fail to understand how sympathizing with some who has been raped is a big problem? I think this world lacks too much sympathy and applies too much blame.

I see you don't understand what I was saying...

It's easier to believe someone when they claim something bad have happened to them, thus it's easier to lie and get away with it without any solid proof of that ever happening.

It takes a really scummy person to lie about something like rape, but it takes a scummier person to tell a rape victim it was her fault. I'm sure some women have lied but its the same way many other people abuse the system in a plethora of ways in the end as for now the amount is negligible when dealing with the fact the 1 out of 3 women are raped through out their lives.

your stats are utter bullshit. I've been trying to post three or four times but CR's fucking up.

Some random shit:
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=317

Sexual Violence Takes Many Forms
Sexual harassment ranges from degrading remarks, gestures, and jokes to indecent exposure, being touched, grabbed, pinched, or brushed against in a sexual way [1]. In employment settings, it has been defined as "unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct that enters into employment decisions or conduct that unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment" [2].
Read more about civil rights and sexual harassment in an NIJ research report.
See also Sexual Harassment on the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Web site.
Sexual assault covers a wide range of unwanted behaviors—up to but not including penetration—that are attempted or completed against a victim's will or when a victim cannot consent because of age, disability, or the influence of alcohol or drugs. Sexual assault may involve actual or threatened physical force, use of weapons, coercion, intimidation, or pressure and may include—
Intentional touching of the victim's genitals, anus, groin, or breasts.
Voyeurism.
Exposure to exhibitionism.
Undesired exposure to pornography.
Public display of images that were taken in a private context or when the victim was unaware.
Rape definitions vary by state and in response to legislative advocacy. Most statutes currently define rape as nonconsensual oral, anal, or vaginal penetration of the victim by body parts or objects using force, threats of bodily harm, or by taking advantage of a victim who is incapacitated or otherwise incapable of giving consent. Incapacitation may include mental or cognitive disability, self-induced or forced intoxication, status as minor, or any other condition defined by law that voids an individual's ability to give consent.
Not surprisingly, rates of rape also vary widely among studies according to how the crime is defined, what population is studied, and what methodology is used. Estimates range from as low as 2 percent [3], as quoted in The Epidemic of Rape and Child Sexual Abuse in the United States [4], to 56 percent [5]. The most recent and methodologically rigorous studies show that sexual assault still occurs at rates that approximate those first identified more than 20 years ago when Koss, Gidycz, and Wisiewski [6] found that approximately 27.5% of college women reported experiences that met the legal criteria for rape.
Sexual assault and rape are generally defined as felonies. During the past 30 years, states have enacted rape shield laws to protect victims and criminal and civil legal remedies to punish perpetrators. The effectiveness of these laws in accomplishing their goals is a topic of concern.
Estimates also vary regarding how likely a victim is to report victimization. Traditionally, rape notification rates differed depending on whether the victim knew the perpetrator — those who knew a perpetrator were often less likely to report the crime. This gap, however, may be closing."

As to those quoted numbers.. it's not 27.7% it's 27.7 in a thousand.,

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

"At first glance, one might conclude that the risk of rape victimization for
college women is not high; “only” about 1 in 36 college women (2.8 percent)
experience a completed rape or attempted rape in an academic year.
Such a conclusion, however, misses critical, and potentially disquieting,
implications. The figures measure victimization for slightly more than half a
year (6.91 months). Projecting results beyond this reference period is problematic
for a number of reasons, such as assuming that the risk of victimization
is the same during summer months and remains stable over a person’s
time in college. However, if the 2.8 percent victimization figure is calculated
for a 1-year period, the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of
college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of
a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of
completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational
institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.18"

I want a statistician to explain exactly how 2% becomes 25% in 5 years.

Looking at exhibit 4, it is clear that estimates from the comparison study for
completed rape, attempted rape, and threats of rape are considerably lower
than the respective estimates from the main study. The percentage of the
sample that reported experiencing a completed rape in the comparison study
was 11 times smaller than the percentage of victims in the main component
(0.16 percent compared with 1.7 percent). The attempted rape estimate from
the comparison component was six times smaller than the attempted rape
estimate (0.18 percent compared with 1.1 percent) from NCWSV. A similar
pattern was evident for threats of rape; the estimate based on the comparison
component was four times smaller than the NCWSV estimate (0.07 percent
compared with 0.3 percent).
What accounts for these differences? Given the similarities between the two
studies, it would appear that the differences most likely stem from the wide
range of behaviorally specific screen questions used in the NCWSV study.

an 11 times difference, and such huge disparities between reported and unreported... If this were biology or physics, those sorts of results would be laughed out.

Victimhood and sympathy have been turned into weapons these days. I don't care how heartless, merciless and god damned black hearted I appear these days. Appeals to sympathy should not be allowed.

In my gender geography text rape is in 1 in 3 woman most US websites dealing with the matter count it at 1 out 5 either one is a high number. Remember that most rape goes unrecorded. Either way I stand by my point the amount of women actually be raped are much higher than those who lie. Therefore when a woman yells rape , one should listen and not get ready to retaliate with victim blaming.

yea i watch law and order svu and i think of the episodes where the 15 year old guy and girl have consentual sex but her parents hate the guy so now he is on the "pedophile" list when he himself wasn't even an adult and it was with consent basically, and something she wanted as well, or sometimes girl talks guy into sex then relationship goes bad so girl claims guy "raped" her.

so guys life is ruined because of mad girlfriends parents before he is even 18 and he's a pedo for life, that's right that stuff never comes off those websites

or best yet saw an episode of cops and this girl was going ape shitz on this guy talking on a phone booth, for 3-5 minutes straight the guy only puts his hands in front of himself to protect himself from her flailing, finally he gets fed up pushes her away which sends her back 1-2 feet but obviously not hurt or damaging to her, no punch or hits, just a shove to get some distance from being physically assaulted,

and at the end of the episode the narrator of the cops show blatantly states that the guy was arrested and no charges where made against the girl, wait whaaaaaaaattttt???????????????!!!!!!

your stats are utter bullshit. I've been trying to post three or four times but CR's fucking up.

Ah, I couldn't quite understand most of what you posted, or who you intended to reply to, etc. CR is fucking up for all of us, so we're closing in on the technical definition of pandemonium (50 blind lesbians in a fish market).

So after a quick read-through of your source for 3.5% number for sexual assaults in college (linked below), I noticed that you didn't read the methodology thoroughly enough to understand the analysis, which is the origin of your confusion. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Ok so... 1.7% reported experiencing "completed rape" and 1.1% reported "attempted rape", which summatively is 2.8% of female undergraduate students. 0.8% of nonundergraduate students reported "completed rape" and 0% reported "attempted rape", which brings the summative rate to 3.6%. However, the time period covered by that 3.6% was 6.91 months, meaning that it represented only 57.58% of the year's incidents, and so the extrapolated yearly rate is 6.25%. As a bachelor's degree usually takes about four years, then 6.25% is quadrupled to represent the likelihood of being sexually assaulted during college - 25%.

In a way easier to read:

Undergraduate students (female)
"completed rape" 1.7%
"attempted rape" 1.1%Nongraduate students (female)
"completed rape" 0.8%Total 3.6%
Portion of year 0.5758
Total college years 4

The 25% number is the one I'm accustomed to, and hugely different from the 3.5% you quoted earlier, but not vastly different from the 30% that I've seen in the "high estimates" from other sources. I've got a stats package installed on my computer. I wouldn't mind running some paired T-tests or whatever to see how reliable these numbers are, if you have the data on hand.

CamCab04wrote:
In my gender geography text rape is in 1 in 3 woman most US websites dealing with the matter count it at 1 out 5 either one is a high number. Remember that most rape goes unrecorded. Either way I stand by my point the amount of women actually be raped are much higher than those who lie. Therefore when a woman yells rape , one should listen and not get ready to retaliate with victim blaming.

This is getting old and dull. Unlike just randomly saying "the internets" I gave you governmental sites.

They states a difference of 2-53% depending on the definitions used. Which I posted.
The pre-filter before the actually surveys can cause a study to differ up to a factor of 11x.
They list difficulties in getting accurate numbers, and state why a good portion of them vary. Everyone has just been erring on the highest numbers, although the police reports coincide with the lowest.

Incidences of males being raped, are on the up and up, along with domestic assault cases against women by men.

I think all possible cases of rape should be investigated, however, I am against mob justice and mass hysteria.

Ok so... 1.7% reported experiencing "completed rape" and 1.1% reported "attempted rape", which summatively is 2.8% of female undergraduate students. 0.8% of nonundergraduate students reported "completed rape" and 0% reported "attempted rape", which brings the summative rate to 3.6%. However, the time period covered by that 3.6% was 6.91 months, meaning that it represented only 57.58% of the year's incidents, and so the extrapolated yearly rate is 6.25%. As a bachelor's degree usually takes about four years, then 6.25% is quadrupled to represent the likelihood of being sexually assaulted during college - 25%.

In a way easier to read:

Undergraduate students (female)
"completed rape" 1.7%
"attempted rape" 1.1%Nongraduate students (female)
"completed rape" 0.8%Total 3.6%
Portion of year 0.5758
Total college years 4

The 25% number is the one I'm accustomed to, and hugely different from the 3.5% you quoted earlier, but not vastly different from the 30% that I've seen in the "high estimates" from other sources. I've got a stats package installed on my computer. I wouldn't mind running some paired T-tests or whatever to see how reliable these numbers are, if you have the data on hand.

No, I got that, and, I can't understand why they multipled as they did when they say also a large portion of the rape-ees are repeat victims. Considering that and the mathematical extrapolations i REALLY want to see a complete 5 year study done before I take their word for it.

Additionally, further down in the text, you'll see they did some sort of a double test, one of which had a pre-screening fo sorts, and somehow the prescreening and wording apparently gave them 11 times the results which their concurrent study had. 11 times higher seems strange and does not leave me to believe that testing was done in a fair manner.

Additionally, the definition of "rape" and "Sexual assault" are very varied, as well as very broad. In some cases, it can be legitimately considered rape to have sex with some whiny kid who has begged you to sleep with him and then you both get it one while you're both drunk.
EDIT:
Also note that sexual assault and rape are different things. A random grope or exposure to pornography against one's will are considered sexual assault, not rape, as dictated by the definitions.

Whatever way you cut it, this feels like some serious number manipulations.

The charts on the last one give some damned good info, and quite frankly, I feel kinda reassured by their exampled given in this doc:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/reporting-rape-in-2013-revised

It's actually, kind of a good question in general: what side of two evils are you going to take? are you going to be ruthless in your pursuit of justice, and murder innocents, or are you willing to let some guilty people free, and hope to get them the second time around in order to keep your hands clean?

Please don't neglect to consider that unfortunate "second time around" target in this utilitarian calculation. By no means should we tattoo "RAPIST" on all suspects and be done with it. But I'd say I lean towards the approach that favors larger public safety. And I don't like the victim mentality much either. Seriously, everyone's a victim--even the accused (and, sadly, sometimes those who are guilty).

OP makes some sweeping generalizations about the justice system as a whole that do not necessarily have a solid foundation in fact. The phrase "guilty until proven innocenct" which is thrown this way and that is at least slight exaggeration. It's a messy section for the courts to be sure, but let's not get carried away and declare a national mentality.
In the same vein, putting away the witch trials for this thread may preserve some credulity.

I will make the personal observation, in my redundant experience of discussing this topic, there seem to remain gender divisions on the subject of rape. Men tend to sympathize with the alleged rapists. Women tend to sympathize with the raped. Further, rape cannot occur between women apparently, and no one wants to touch a case involving gay men. A horrible mess indeed.

Don't remember who said it, but, yes, there are times where it would be perfectly normal to feel shame when reporting a crime. Can't say I'd like to have anyone swabbing there so soon after I'd just been violated. I hate to say this (because it isn't necessarily so), but you may need to have been raised with different gender perspective to fully understand.

serifsansserifwrote:
No, I got that, and, I can't understand why they multipled as they did when they say also a large portion of the rape-ees are repeat victims. Considering that and the mathematical extrapolations i REALLY want to see a complete 5 year study done before I take their word for it.

Additionally, further down in the text, you'll see they did some sort of a double test, one of which had a pre-screening fo sorts, and somehow the prescreening and wording apparently gave them 11 times the results which their concurrent study had. 11 times higher seems strange and does not leave me to believe that testing was done in a fair manner.

Additionally, the definition of "rape" and "Sexual assault" are very varied, as well as very broad. In some cases, it can be legitimately considered rape to have sex with some whiny kid who has begged you to sleep with him and then you both get it one while you're both drunk.

I don't know that 22.8% can be considered a "large portion", but the repeated victimization did lead to pointing out that "incidents" and "victims" were different. But yeah, their math isn't as clear as it should be. Also, I'm a REAL scientist, and so I get incredibly frustrated while reading psych and socio papers due to the difficulty with quantification, and make precise replication very difficult. The comparison study used different wording to ask similar questions and got different results. Not a surprise. Since I didn't see a script for either the initial study or the comparison study, I can't make a judgement as to the quality of the questions.

However, I think that the take-home point to the comparison study discussion is that of the women who had experienced "completed rape" according to the legal definition, only 46.5% agreed that yes, they had been raped. If you believe the comparative study, then you must assume that an approximately similar amount of rapes in the general population are being reported to the police. Which is again, very similar to the stats that I'm accustomed to, and very different from the 2-4% that has your panties in a bunch.

I heard of a survey study that questioned about 1500 MEN, asking them whether or not they had performed certain actions, and used the legal description of various forms of sexual assault, without using words like "rape", "assault", or "coercion". Interestingly, the self-reports of the men regarding sexual assaults were almost identical to the self-reports of women in previous studies (which would be the 25% and 30% numbers, not the 2%), except that under 15% of the men were responsible for ALL of the sexual assaults, and of that number less than 7% were responsible for more than half. If I remember correctly (from second-hand information - trusted source, but still second-hand), only about 5.5% of the men were responsible for about 70% of the assaults. If I can find the publication first-hand I'll post a link.

The fact that most men aren't sexually predatory is one that isn't recognized as often as it should be. Let's use infanticide as an example: Newborn infants (a few days old) in the U.S. are occasionally murdered by their mothers (think dumpster babies and postpartum psychosis). I don't have the numbers on this one, but let's say that mothers are THE MOST LIKELY demographic to murder newborn babies. Obviously this doesn't mean that all mothers of neonates are vicious murderers, but that mothers of neonates have the highest rate of interaction with newborn babies, and are (due to postpartum issues) much more likely to be batshit crazy than at other times.

The language of OP is truly disgusting and hypocritical: What if the defendant is Innocent? What if the plaintiff was lying? Liars that go drink too much, have sex then scream rape. And this one takes the cake

and safety these days (and often state it's someone else's fault) [...] as well as actually getting raped because you willfully put yourself in a situation where you have impaired judgement

People, if you don't want to be raped, stop letting yourself get raped.

I once kinda got raped. I hung out with a girl who was really into biting and stuff. If I was more sensitive I might have reported it, but I didn't because I didn't blame her for her loss of control. When she realized later what she'd done she felt really bad, because she didn't think I was being serious when I told her to stop.

It's not about being too "sensitive". If it's not her then who else is to blame? You?

The thing is that people always tend to be more sympathetic towards someone whom have been victimized, thus you have a big problem with rape here.

I fail to understand how sympathizing with some who has been raped is a big problem? I think this world lacks too much sympathy and applies too much blame.

I think he's trying to say the problem is that the person being victimized is going to get support regardless of whether or not they're telling the truth. This is part of the reason why the mere accusation of rape can ruin peoples lives, even if they're completely innocent.

CamCab04wrote:
In my gender geography text rape is in 1 in 3 woman most US websites dealing with the matter count it at 1 out 5 either one is a high number. Remember that most rape goes unrecorded. Either way I stand by my point the amount of women actually be raped are much higher than those who lie. Therefore when a woman yells rape , one should listen and not get ready to retaliate with victim blaming.

This is getting old and dull. Unlike just randomly saying "the internets" I gave you governmental sites.

They states a difference of 2-53% depending on the definitions used. Which I posted.
The pre-filter before the actually surveys can cause a study to differ up to a factor of 11x.
They list difficulties in getting accurate numbers, and state why a good portion of them vary. Everyone has just been erring on the highest numbers, although the police reports coincide with the lowest.

Incidences of males being raped, are on the up and up, along with domestic assault cases against women by men.

I think all possible cases of rape should be investigated, however, I am against mob justice and mass hysteria.

Now to see if CR actually posts this

I don't know why you bring up men being raped has to do with anything. I never said men don't get raped if that's the point you are trying to make. I know men can be raped as well.
And I really don't know why you bring up domestic assault. Yes some women perpetrate domestic assault but the majority of cases is men. And thats just here in the US if you bring the rest of the world into the equation then it is dominantly men.
When men get raped I'm sure sometimes it is from women but the majority of the time its from men themselves. But I do know that this chauvinist society is even harsher on men who are raped so I'm sure even more cases are not brought to light.
You also realize the pdf you quoted from was written 15 years ago and used information that is over 20 years old now. A lot has changed including facilitated data gathering, I quoted the information in my text book because it was written 2 years ago.
All that I am saying is that rape is not something that one should blame on the victim whether it is a woman or man that is raped, because most likely than not they were raped.
It seems like your just trying to make the point that women are liars and victim blaming is good towards them and if you are misogynist I'm not going to even continue arguing with you, your mind about women and my opinions/ views has obviously been made up. I've worked at a women empowerment center and i know that many women aren't even allowed to follow through with their police report and get the third degree when they try to bring forth their rape.
There is no mob justice for rape and there is no mass hysteria please show me of some examples of this because I still recall how a girl was raped by several football players not that long ago and the media blamed the girl, causing why I equate to a mass hysteria of she deserved it, why was she there, what a slut etc. it seems its not very towards the woman's favor in most cases if that's the point you're trying to prove.

CamCab04wrote:
There is no mob justice for rape and there is no mass hysteria please show me of some examples of this because I still recall how a girl was raped by several football players not that long ago and the media blamed the girl, causing why I equate to a mass hysteria of she deserved it, why was she there, what a slut etc. it seems its not very towards the woman's favor in most cases if that's the point you're trying to prove.

Pretty much this. I'm just waiting for some white guy to rant about how he didn't get into college because a black guy took his spot.