(11-10-2014 06:12 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote: Oh we're into facts and figures now are we?... I must somehow present you with a report which assigns figures to something as nuanced as belief.... Hmmm I guess you'll have to do the same then to back up your assertions that black people suffer racism too because you know clearly if you don't have the figures to prove it, then racism doesnt exist. And just think about those silly Muslims who are complaining of being targeted for hate crimes as the media draws associations between them and terrorism. How silly they are to complain when they dont have a graph to prove that tensions for them are worsening.

The OP really just makes the following point: pop-culture depicts racism as white... Just like it depicts gangsterism as black and just like it depicts terrorism as Muslim.... All of these stereotypes are bad and we should all be united in trying to get rid of them. Don't smugly demand for facts and figures for one, but not the others. That does nothing but prove the problem exists.

Yes I can definitively show that Black People in America are systematically discriminated against all you have done is mention a single anecdotal story of a time a black cop was lippy.

You are missing the point.... I know racism against black people exists. The point is that no one demands data when talking about black racism, but if you mention white racism, suddenly we need to produce data to substantiate it.

This isn't tit-for-tat.... I want to eradicate racism against black people as much as you do.... The problem is that you are not interested in eradicating racism against whites.

(11-10-2014 06:21 PM)Revenant77x Wrote: Yes I can definitively show that Black People in America are systematically discriminated against all you have done is mention a single anecdotal story of a time a black cop was lippy.

You are missing the point.... I know racism against black people exists. The point is that no one demands data when talking about black racism, but if you mention white racism, suddenly we need to produce data to substantiate it.

This isn't tit-for-tat.... I want to eradicate racism against black people as much as you do.... The problem is that you are not interested in eradicating racism against whites.

That's because we have all seen the data on black racism. Show me the hard numbers on what you are talking about.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

To emphasise a point I have made several times throughout this thread, the OP is not a criticism of people. It is a criticism of culture.... I am not assigning an equivalency of any kind between black racism, white racism or any other kind of racism... What I am doing is pointing out that pop-culture depicts racism as white. This is as silly as depicting gangsterism as black.

Any response to the tune of "black people have it worse so be quiet" are really just missing the point. If an Arab complained of racism, would you pipe up with "black people have it worse, so shut up"?... If not, then you have proven my OP.

(11-10-2014 06:40 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote: You are missing the point.... I know racism against black people exists. The point is that no one demands data when talking about black racism, but if you mention white racism, suddenly we need to produce data to substantiate it.

This isn't tit-for-tat.... I want to eradicate racism against black people as much as you do.... The problem is that you are not interested in eradicating racism against whites.

That's because we have all seen the data on black racism. Show me the hard numbers on what you are talking about.

What?... Your assertion "we have all seen the data on black racism" is false.... I have not seen this data but I still know the problem exists. To pretend you need to see data before you can acknowledge white racism exists is intellectually dishonest.

Why are you fighting so hard to convince me that white racism doesnt exist? It does.

(11-10-2014 06:52 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote: To emphasise a point I have made several times throughout this thread, the OP is not a criticism of people. It is a criticism of culture.... I am not assigning an equivalency of any kind between black racism, white racism or any other kind of racism... What I am doing is pointing out that pop-culture depicts racism as white. This is as silly as depicting gangsterism as black.

Any response to the tune of "black people have it worse so be quiet" are really just missing the point. If an Arab complained of racism, would you pipe up with "black people have it worse, so shut up"?... If not, then you have proven my OP.

Your "point" is ludicrously reductionist. White people are by far the most privileged section of society in most of the world. The few exceptions are where they are not even a full percentage point of the population (as in some asian countries) but even there they do not have the systematic racism experienced by other groups, including arabs. If you actually were experiencing racism on the level you claimed you would be able to show it with more than a one off anecdote.

Yes racism towards any outgroup exists (and as whites are a minority on the planet by definition they are an out group in some situations) however it does not compare to the actual racism that needs to be dealt with. Some people are asshole and use racism to excuse themselves for being assholes. That's life and it only becomes a problem when society as a whole is engaged in in practices that negatively affect members of a particular group (be it blacks, gays, or muslims).

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

(11-10-2014 06:52 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote: To emphasise a point I have made several times throughout this thread, the OP is not a criticism of people. It is a criticism of culture.... I am not assigning an equivalency of any kind between black racism, white racism or any other kind of racism... What I am doing is pointing out that pop-culture depicts racism as white. This is as silly as depicting gangsterism as black.

Any response to the tune of "black people have it worse so be quiet" are really just missing the point. If an Arab complained of racism, would you pipe up with "black people have it worse, so shut up"?... If not, then you have proven my OP.

Your "point" is ludicrously reductionist. White people are by far the most privileged section of society in most of the world. The few exceptions are where they are not even a full percentage point of the population (as in some asian countries) but even there they do not have the systematic racism experienced by other groups, including arabs. If you actually were experiencing racism on the level you claimed you would be able to show it with more than a one off anecdote.

Yes racism towards any outgroup exists (and as whites are a minority on the planet by definition they are an out group in some situations) however it does not compare to the actual racism that needs to be dealt with. Some people are asshole and use racism to excuse themselves for being assholes. That's life and it only becomes a problem when society as a whole is engaged in in practices that negatively affect members of a particular group (be it blacks, gays, or muslims).

You have ignored pretty much everything I said.
1) You still think this a tit-for-tat comparison between black racism and white racism even though I have explained on several occasions that the OP is about eradicating racism in all its forms.
2) you still think my OP is about experiencing racism from black people even after I have explained this is a criticism of popular culture.
3) you assert wild generalisations like "white people are by far the most privileged section of society in most of the world"... Care to back that up with data??

The above 3 things show that you are not interested in seeing the other person's point of view.

But just to satisfy your request for data, here is an excerpt from Sam Harris's book, The Moral Landscape in which he talks about a study that was done on racism between liberals and conservatives. Here's a link to the full page: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/...man-values

Here is a shorter description of the study to save you reading time:

"In a recent study of moral reasoning, subjects were asked to judge whether it was morally correct to sacrifice the life of one person to save one hundred, while being given subtle clues as to the races of the people involved. Conservatives proved less biased by race than liberals and, therefore, more even-handed. It turns out that liberals were very eager to sacrifice a white person to save one hundred non-whites, but not the other way around, all the while maintaining that considerations of race had not entered into their thinking. Observations of this sort are useful in revealing the biasing effect of ideology—even the ideology of fairness."

(11-10-2014 07:00 PM)Revenant77x Wrote: Your "point" is ludicrously reductionist. White people are by far the most privileged section of society in most of the world. The few exceptions are where they are not even a full percentage point of the population (as in some asian countries) but even there they do not have the systematic racism experienced by other groups, including arabs. If you actually were experiencing racism on the level you claimed you would be able to show it with more than a one off anecdote.

Yes racism towards any outgroup exists (and as whites are a minority on the planet by definition they are an out group in some situations) however it does not compare to the actual racism that needs to be dealt with. Some people are asshole and use racism to excuse themselves for being assholes. That's life and it only becomes a problem when society as a whole is engaged in in practices that negatively affect members of a particular group (be it blacks, gays, or muslims).

You have ignored pretty much everything I said.
1) You still think this a tit-for-tat comparison between black racism and white racism even though I have explained on several occasions that the OP is about eradicating racism in all its forms.
2) you still think my OP is about experiencing racism from black people even after I have explained this is a criticism of popular culture.
3) you assert wild generalisations like "white people are by far the most privileged section of society in most of the world"... Care to back that up with data??

The above 3 things show that you are not interested in seeing the other person's point of view.

But just to satisfy your request for data, here is an excerpt from Sam Harris's book, The Moral Landscape in which he talks about a study that was done on racism between liberals and conservatives. Here's a link to the full page: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/...man-values

Here is a shorter description of the study to save you reading time:

"In a recent study of moral reasoning, subjects were asked to judge whether it was morally correct to sacrifice the life of one person to save one hundred, while being given subtle clues as to the races of the people involved. Conservatives proved less biased by race than liberals and, therefore, more even-handed. It turns out that liberals were very eager to sacrifice a white person to save one hundred non-whites, but not the other way around, all the while maintaining that considerations of race had not entered into their thinking. Observations of this sort are useful in revealing the biasing effect of ideology—even the ideology of fairness."

A study! Wow! I guess white racism does exist afterall eh!

Wrong it shows that being fed leading questions get a sought after result (Example). As for Harris I find him to be less than credible on moral issues and rather poor in the use of logic. Good Neurologist not so great as a philosopher. You seem to be really hung up on this idea that all forms of racism are equal, they are not. In the real world Institutionalised Racism is a much larger problem than anything you have brought up, most of which amount to bitching about people (vaguely defined) who claim (according to you) that white people are the cause of all bad things. I ask for some supporting data and you retreat into obfuscation all of which shows me you have no support for your views.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

(11-10-2014 04:32 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: The people's that control institutions in america, whether those be finacial (business), government, academic, or otherwise, are typically and statistically, overwhelmingly white males.

Same principle applied to other groups... The people that commit terrorist attacks globally are overwhelmingly Muslims.... Are we justified in feeling contempt for all Muslims? No.

The people that practise female genital mutilation are overwhelmingly African males... Should we stereotype Africans as genital mutilators because of that? No.

The people that poach and kill tigers are overwhelmingly indian males... Should we stereotype them? No.

You are missing the point. Nobody is blaming all whites for racism. Your analogies break down pretty quickly. We do blame the taliban, and al qaeda, and other extremist groups for terrorism. We don't blame all muslims because the extremest are a fringe minority. That is not the same thing as saying all muslims are terrorists. Saying that racism is a problem in america is not the same thing as saying all whites are racist.