heart wrote:Also, sometimes I think that there are no "ordinary" people that are interested in Dzogchen.

Don't kid yourself.

I am not, the point being that there are a lot of strange people interested in Dzogchen.

/magnus

or could it be that "there is a lot of people intersted in strange Dzogchen" ... joking of course

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

heart wrote:Also, sometimes I think that there are no "ordinary" people that are interested in Dzogchen.

Don't kid yourself.

I am not, the point being that there are a lot of strange people interested in Dzogchen.

/magnus

whether people are ordinary or extraordinary it doesnt really matter.what it matters is their connection to dzogchen beyond any doubt and this is a cause for rejoicing.What is beyond ordinary is our connection to Dzogchen.

CNNR puts it very clearly"Everyone has the capacity and a specific connection with the teaching if they display an interest in Dzogchen.Even coming to a retreat to follow a friend who invited us indicates a connection that goes back to previous lives.In this case the friend can simply constitute the secondary cause for the connection to manifest.In fact ,if you do not have a connection with the teaching and with the transmission from previous lives,you can never enter the dzogchen path.There is a clear difference ,then,between sutra and dzogchen.This is what lots of people who have doubts about their capacity to follow and understand dzogchen should see and realize.

The idea that calling vidyā "self" will get you to where you want to go.

The purpose of that passage (which is largely cribbed from the cycle connected with the bardo thos grol) is to point out that all these different systems are aimed an discovering the real state. It does not mean that they are all equally successful in their endeavor.

N

I agree. I wasn't saying it was. My take on Shabkar's point is that words cannot be mistaken for the view. Garuda is about Dzogchen obviously. Saying vidya is not going to get you vidya either. Neither will knowing the definition. I'm saying there is wiggle room and you could even use the word "Self" as Saraha did. In that case, he was sort of tongue in cheek, but in context, you get the point of mahamudra. Like that.

Well, if you know the actual definition of vidyā, than this means you have that knowledge.

That's an interesting take. A vidyadhara is someone who holds a definition. I'm sure that's not what you are saying, but where does the experience beyond words come into play? Vidya in the sense of having delved and probed the mind and not found something is more than a sentence.

deepbluehum wrote:...but where does the experience beyond words come into play?

One will not know the definition of vidyā until one has that personal experience or direct perception upon which that knoweledge, vidyā, is predicated. But once one has that knowledge, then the definition will be as obvious to one as the taste of sugar.

The purpose of path of Dzogchen is to discover than knowledge, remove doubts concerning it, and continue in confidence about it.

deepbluehum wrote:...but where does the experience beyond words come into play?

One will not know the definition of vidyā until one has that personal experience or direct perception upon which that knoweledge, vidyā, is predicated. But once one has that knowledge, then the definition will be as obvious to one as the taste of sugar.

The purpose of path of Dzogchen is to discover than knowledge, remove doubts concerning it, and continue in confidence about it.

deepbluehum wrote:...but where does the experience beyond words come into play?

One will not know the definition of vidyā until one has that personal experience or direct perception upon which that knoweledge, vidyā, is predicated. But once one has that knowledge, then the definition will be as obvious to one as the taste of sugar.

The purpose of path of Dzogchen is to discover than knowledge, remove doubts concerning it, and continue in confidence about it.

Yes. I think we've well sorted this one out.

I think he is saying that ultimately concepts do matter in the sense that they need to represent the actual. If they do not accurately represent the natural state, for example calling it Self, then something is off.