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Originally posted by TWTCommish A computer is very different - it accepts commands...a human has been created to think for his or herself. Whether you believe in God or not, you have to admit that a human has reason and complex thought...hardly a computer!

And people who obey the ten commandments and other absolut rights and wrongs accept commands as well.

And the fact that humans have reason and complex thought is where Lewis' argument breaks down.

Originally posted by TWTCommish Don't read it if you don't like it! These are the GENERAL Forums...read them at your own risk.

I'm only frustrated because I think all this milk jug stuff has got to go. If you want to argue with what Mr. Lewis said...then fire away...but the analogies are getting off subject, hard to understand, and a bit odd.

I read every post made in these forums. As a Community Administrator, I feel like I have to especially since these kinds of conversations can get out of control.

I just take it for granted that God created the Universe and that no one created Him, because He has always existed. Yes, that is a statement based solely on faith.

Now, my logical argument for believing in that is this...If there isn't a Creator, then how did the world come about? Like you said, it didn't just come out of nothing. So either there is a Creator or the world has always existed. But for that universe to exist, it had to be created. So the only logical theory left is that someone had to create it, that person being God.

Something had to come before everything else. Something had to "POOF - just be there." - no way around that one. It just comes down to whether or not you think it was God that was here, or something else.

Wayne: my apologies if my earlier reply was a bit too harsh...thankfully I don't think anyone took it that way. I think that is what your post is referring to, but It confused me a bit...so I'm not sure. I do, however, believe that these forums are here for a reason, and that if we cannot be allowed to discuss general issues here, the forum shouldn't exist.

Originally posted by TWTCommish Don't read it if you don't like it! These are the GENERAL Forums...read them at your own risk.

I'm only frustrated because I think all this milk jug stuff has got to go. If you want to argue with what Mr. Lewis said...then fire away...but the analogies are getting off subject, hard to understand, and a bit odd.

I read every post made in these forums. As a Community Administrator, I feel like I have to especially since these kinds of conversations can get out of control.

I wasn't referring to you...it's your job to read them. I was referring to whomever said they "didn't like threads on this subject"...or something along those lines.

Originally posted by micahgoulart I just take it for granted that God created the Universe and that no one created Him, because He has always existed. Yes, that is a statement based solely on faith.

Now, my logical argument for believing in that is this...If there isn't a Creator, then how did the world come about? Like you said, it didn't just come out of nothing. So either there is a Creator or the world has always existed. But for that universe to exist, it had to be created. So the only logical theory left is that someone had to create it, that person being God.

The Universe existed first out of matter of a very high density. Then it exploded: The Big Bang.

The proof for it can be seen easily: the whole universe is still expanding.

I'm not an expert in this, so if you don't believe this, please refer to an expert

You're not gonna tell me that POOF! suddenly there was a god and an empty universe...

Maybe in an eternal perspective it is beyond the understanding of our puny human brains - after all we are only using something like 10% capacity right???

And since we are on the subject of scientists/the 'big-bang' check these quotes from a book by a chap called Dr M. Scott Peck

"...what is paraded as science fact is simply the current belief of some scientists. We are accustomed to regard science as Truth with a capital T. What scientific knowledge is, in fact, is the best available approximation of truth in the judgement of the majority of scientists who work in the particular speciality involved. Truth is not something we possess; it is a goal toward which we, hopefully, strive."

"...The problem is aggravated by the fact that the public is actually eager to be guided by the pronouncements of scientists... blah blah blah... we are content, even anxious, to let our authorities do our thinking for us.."

How many times has science been proved wrong? How many hoaxes have appeared? (Piltdown Man etc). How many times has science had to retract a "fact" and change it for another one?

Now how many times has the Bible been actually proved wrong? I have yet to find one!

And the petty articles put together by some guy don't convince me either. I can easily disprove his arguments.

The Bible does not speak of everything, but what it does bring up, it is always correct.

Call it fanaticism, blind faith or whatever you like, but it is based on reason, and besides that, it is better to have faith in something than to wander around criticising everything that comes up, living a life of skepticism and doubt, always searching for the truth...

"God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so (Gen.2:17),
he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5)."

I find a lot of things like that exist from your links, where it's obviously not meant to be taken literally. Not going into all of them (like you said, it's a huge list)...but the content at those links cannot be called fact.

By the way: when he said it was "in Genesis"...he did so with a smiley...that means he KNOWS what he's saying is goofy...he doesn't expect to you believe it and was not presenting it was proof. I found that obvious...

Another one:

"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD." So I guess it is possible to hide from God, which means that God
doesn't know everything. "

Another ridiculous statement from one of your links...out of his presence can mean so many different things that its ridiculous. The writer is definetly straining there.

I just browsed randomly...doing so randomly and finding ridiculous things like this by CHANCE immedietly makes me question the value of the site, seeing as how the odds say there must be a good deal of such statements.

Originally posted by TWTCommish By the way: when he said it was "in Genesis"...he did so with a smiley...that means he KNOWS what he's saying is goofy...he doesn't expect to you believe it and was not presenting it was proof. I found that obvious...

Actually z7 said that...not me. I also believe it...at least generally. I think a person using his or her full brain capability would be basically the most powerful person on Earth compared to the rest of us.

For all of you arguing what the Bible says and doesn't say, have you even read it? All of it? More than once? It's amazing how many Bible experts I've met who have never even read an entire chapter of it, let alone the whole thing.

They publish a version called The One Year Bible that divides it into 365 fifteen-minute readings. In one year, you can read the Bible all the way through. Then you can argue for or against it knowledgeably. If you are going to slam it or praise it, at least have the intellectual honesty to read the whole thing.

I've read through it 8.5 times using this method, and it only took 15 minutes a day! Go to my site, and you can get a free copy.