2010.06.17 - Sila Paramita [Ethics] I

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Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)Agatha Macbeth: Ah, hi Gaya :)Yakuzza Lethecus: hi gayaWol Euler: hello gayaMitsu Ishii: hi gayaDao Yheng: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/Dao Yheng: Reports from Zen, Eliza and myselfGaya Ethaniel: Dao's report: insanity :)Agatha MacbethAgatha Macbeth grinsGaya Ethaniel: I can relate to that comment :PAgatha Macbeth: Me too :)Dao Yheng: It's funny, I think ethics used to feel like a much heavier thing to meAgatha Macbeth: Hello TimGaya Ethaniel: Hello Tim :)Gaya Ethaniel: And now Dao?Timbo Quan: Hello everyoneYakuzza Lethecus: good evening timWol Euler: hello timboDao Yheng: usually, guilt following close behind, but I felt "freed" to hear a buddhist teacher say that guilt is not at all the pointAgatha Macbeth: Good :)Dao Yheng: (Hi Timbo!)Mitsu Ishii: so last week we had a question about how one can relate contemplation to ethics or action in the worldDao Yheng: How did people find the homework assignment this week?Gaya Ethaniel: I didn't have time to write today ... even missed S Korea football game!Dao Yheng: oh no!Dao Yheng: :)Gaya Ethaniel: :)Dao Yheng: I mean about the footballAgatha Macbeth: You didn't miss much GayaGaya Ethaniel: From experience, I can say at least precepts are related and one can open up to others. So quite easy to start with one.Gaya Ethaniel: Connected at the root so to speak.Dao Yheng: Yes, good pointDao Yheng: actually, this question of contemplation vs. action is sort of solved that way tooDao Yheng: contemplation sort of helping to provide a clear basis for actionMitsu Ishii: but precepts are actually just rough guidelines that stem from something deeper.Agatha MacbethAgatha Macbeth nodsGaya Ethaniel: Yes, indeed, main point of precepts are to help one uncovering that basis. Actions follow naturally from there.Dao Yheng: Yes, precepts provide a guide when feeling befuddled or confused, and also a good description of what you would do anyway if acting in accord with realityDao Yheng: In other conversations, though, there was raised a question of how much we can really perfect our situation / our actionsMitsu Ishii: so, for example, emptiness, and seeing that subject and object are not separated, these often seem abstractMitsu Ishii: but for me these form the foundation of how right action can sort of flowMitsu Ishii: it becomes a matter of reducing the ways in which we add on to that flow which are contrived, rather than looking at things in terms of getting better and better or more and more perfectDao Yheng: yes, emptiness and interconnectedness are not just theories, they are lived, and contemplation seems to help bring that to the foreWol Euler: ((btw I was asked to extend Calvino Rabeni's greetings, and his apology for missing the session at short notice))Dao Yheng: Oh, nice of Calvino to say hello :)Mitsu Ishii: ah okay thanks WolAgatha MacbethAgatha Macbeth waves to CalWol Euler: I'll pass that on :)Gaya Ethaniel: :)Mitsu Ishii: for example, one time Dao and I attended a talk by Thich Nhat HanhMitsu Ishii: he held up a glass of water and saidDao Yheng: (We did? I don't remember!)Mitsu Ishii: "you should see a cloud in the glass of water"Mitsu Ishii: yes, it was back in Palo AltoMitsu Ishii: he was basically saying that we tend to see things in front of us as objects that are sort of disconnectedMitsu Ishii: but in fact everything came from a vast interconnected set of processes and is going back into that vast interconnected set of processesMitsu Ishii: the glass of water is just a temporary phenomenonGaya Ethaniel: Must think big :)Mitsu Ishii: so if we think of things this way, he was saying, it becomes more obvious why it is important to think about the environment, to think about the effect of our actions on the whole sustaining system in which we are just temporary phenomenaMitsu Ishii: how does everyone relate to ethics and right action? do you have thoughts about this?Gaya Ethaniel: I think following rules is not the right way to go about doing right action.Gaya Ethaniel: Although I do agree that rules can be guidelines as Dao said.Dao Yheng: what do you like to rely on instead of rules, Gaya?Gaya Ethaniel: Rules are pointers really ... last year we spent some time with Stim on precepts.Gaya Ethaniel: Thinking a lot of about 'harm' or 'intoxicant' means etc. but thinking on theese points alone don't lead to right actions.Yakuzza LethecusYakuzza Lethecus needs to sleep, take care everyone!Dao Yheng: Bye yaku!Mitsu Ishii: bye yakuWol Euler: bye yakuAgatha MacbethAgatha Macbeth waves to YakuGaya Ethaniel: One needs to sincerely commit to it to see ... ethics until then for me was something of philosophy.Dao Yheng: Hmm, yesDao Yheng: it's a scary step to take -- that commitment -- because as Zen points out in his report, it isn't actually possible to hold to precepts or ethics perfectlyGaya Ethaniel: That's the thinking part isn't it?Mitsu Ishii: I once had a hard time with this whole question of action because at first, while sitting and practicing, I had this experience of emptiness, which led to an idea that everything I ordinarily cared about was somehow empty of solid realityMitsu Ishii: so I then thought, why do things, why care about things?Dao Yheng: partly thinking, but it's also the truth part tooDao Yheng: we are form beings with limited resources -- we can say we won't kill, but then everyone diesGaya Ethaniel: Well, yes I feel immensely grateful for vegetables :)Wol Euler: :)Dao Yheng: I know a guy who never ate roots -- only fruit and nutsAgatha Macbeth: Yum :)Dao Yheng: basically was trying to eat in such a way that he wouldn't kill the plant too :)Gaya Ethaniel: This kind of perfection isn't the main point surely ...Dao Yheng: no, I don't think it is -- but it's an example of the kind of limits we run into I thinkGaya Ethaniel: I mean how about his own health? Doesn't taking care of oneself count in 'no harm'?Dao Yheng: admittedly, he was a young guy :) But yes -- a trade off thereGaya Ethaniel: :)Gaya Ethaniel: Well once I became vegetarian just like him when younger :)Dao Yheng: and then?Gaya Ethaniel: Think we should listen to Mitsu why he decided to continue care about things.Mitsu Ishii: Oh I was going to say I saw Groundhog Day, and it gave me an ideaMitsu Ishii: basically the idea had to do with seeing that compassionate action in the world makes sense even if things are emptyMitsu Ishii: because the beauty of life is inherent in the direct moment to moment realityMitsu Ishii: unfortunately I have to run --- got to get to a meetingMitsu Ishii: bye everyone see you next week! Dao Yheng: bye!Agatha Macbeth: Aw, bye MitsuGaya Ethaniel: Bye Mitsu :)Wol Euler: bye mitsuWol Euler: take careGaya Ethaniel: All chatterboxes have left.Dao Yheng: :)Gaya Ethaniel: Or didn't come :PAgatha Macbeth: You're still here Gaya :-)))Wol Euler bites her tongueGaya Ethaniel: Yes, so I stopped within the year Dao.Dao Yheng: started to feel woozy?Gaya Ethaniel: Recently I became a veggie again but after committing to precepts, it followed naturally.Gaya Ethaniel: Last time, it was too much work I felt with extra cooking. I actually wanted to eat certain foods etc.Timbo Quan: like bacon?Gaya Ethaniel: lolWol Euler starts to salivate. Damn this pavlovian training.Gaya Ethaniel: That's your favourite Timbo :)Dao Yheng: (I saw a picture of multi-colored bacon yesterday -- that should cure anyone of the desire to eat bacon)Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...Agatha Macbeth: Wouldn't cure me I'm afraidTimbo Quan: yes lovely crispy bacon .....Gaya Ethaniel: Actually someone gave me food bits with eggs by mistake and I ate it.Dao Yheng: ah, real carnivores! :)Agatha Macbeth: YepTimbo Quan: yes afraid soGaya Ethaniel: I'm not a sort that panicks and shouts 'oh no' at such situations ... :)Gaya Ethaniel: It's just a small gesture of mine.Dao Yheng: Someone told me a while ago that you shouldn't feed meat to parakeets -- they'll start pecking at you :0Gaya Ethaniel: :)Dao Yheng: @gaya -- yes, it seems to be a style thing. Some vegetarians eat the way they do out of true revulsionDao Yheng: others are more genteel about itTimbo Quan: parakeets cute when they nibble youGaya Ethaniel: Yes, partly that too. I'm unhappy with the modern industrial agriculture.Gaya Ethaniel: But I don't impose it on Tim though :) I happily cook meat for him, free-range organic :)Timbo Quan: :)Wol Euler: :)Agatha Macbeth: Go for it TimDao Yheng: Lucky!Gaya Ethaniel: But Tim says I will get ill because I don't eat meat. Anyway I'm being boring.Agatha Macbeth: NawWol Euler: no, you're notGaya Ethaniel: The point is committing to a precept can be fun :)Gaya Ethaniel: It does far more than just thinking about ethics.Dao Yheng: idea that we can carry out our responsibilities out of a sense of appreciationGaya Ethaniel nods :)Wol Euler nods.Dao Yheng: and then not get too attached to the results :)Dao Yheng: even if the result is meat-eating parakeets and jellyfishGaya Ethaniel: Joy is to be found in doing I think.Gaya Ethaniel: Not results.Gaya Ethaniel: lolGaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)Zen Arado: Hi allWol Euler: hello zenAgatha Macbeth: Aww Zen, you're late :)Timbo Quan: hello ZenZen Arado: sorry I missed the meetingGaya Ethaniel: Just in time for last comments Zen :)Dao Yheng: hope that means you had fun tonight, Zen!Zen Arado: I went to talk given by Brad Warner in RL and it ran lateGaya Ethaniel: So next one is one of my favourites, Patience.Dao Yheng: Hmm, I'll google him, don't know who he isZen Arado: he's a zen teacherWol Euler notes the time and slips away quietly. Goodnight, my dears, take care.Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)Zen Arado: a bit putrageousAgatha Macbeth: Putrageous?Zen Arado: he is in a punk rocj bandZen Arado: outrageousDao Yheng: Shall we move onto patience, or stay with ethics one more session?Gaya Ethaniel: I was Googling putrageous too lolDao Yheng: it seems like it should be a wordGaya Ethaniel: roflAgatha Macbeth: IndeedGaya Ethaniel: I will post the log for tonight.Gaya Ethaniel: Let's stay on one more week to give those chatterboxes a chance to chat?Agatha Macbeth: Yeah, like Eliza :))Zen Arado: http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/Gaya Ethaniel: Well, Ms. Madrigal is a self-claimed chatterbox.Agatha Macbeth: TrueGaya Ethaniel: uh ... hard core Zen ... hmGaya Ethaniel: Aren't they already hard core enough?Zen Arado: he uses a lot of bad language tooAgatha Macbeth: So do I!Zen Arado: but he is very honest and authenticDao Yheng: sounds like fun!Zen Arado: he has 3 books outAgatha Macbeth: WhoaZen Arado: reaches younger audience maybeZen Arado: I enjoyed his talk anywayGaya Ethaniel: ok I will forward to Ms. Madrigal's return very much and another session on ethics then :)Dao Yheng: Oh, just saw his blog banner -- buddha has sort of a reverse mohawk!Agatha Macbeth: Yep, for sure :)Agatha Macbeth: He does?Gaya Ethaniel opens the link ...Dao Yheng: thanks gaya!Gaya Ethaniel: lolAgatha Macbeth: A punk Buddha eh?Gaya Ethaniel: wwaaahhh never seen anything like this.Agatha Macbeth: Bet you have :)Gaya Ethaniel: I've seen the hair in Camden but not on Buddha no!Zen Arado: he's an interesting guy:)Dao Yheng: :))Dao Yheng: thanks for the link, Zen!Agatha Macbeth: Come to that, I never saw the Buddha in Camden Gaya :)Gaya Ethaniel: :)Dao Yheng: ha!Agatha Macbeth: Anyways...Gaya Ethaniel: Good night/evening :)Zen Arado: so...more ethics then ?Agatha Macbeth: C ya'll next week, take care :)Dao Yheng: good night all!Zen Arado: nite allDao Yheng: yep, ethics again next week