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Ok, this afternoon I had a great time flying my SF 2.5UL and Soul in decent wind. I had some better success with snap stalls which I am still working on, but getting better at.

I tried to get the nose of the kite to flare on a downward flight, but no matter how much slack I throw at either kite, they will not flatten out. Had a couple of nasty lawn darts, but everything is fine with the kites.

I have even tried throwing slack when the kite is flying upwards, and it really does not want to go onto its back.

I have the standard tail weights on both kites, as well as the ballasts, would more weight or less help me flare the kite?

I tried the SF2.5UL in both the turbo bridle and non-turbo, and the Soul bridle is as it came from the factory.

my first suggestion would be to try the same moves, in lighter winds, and see how it goes.

I agree. Lighter winds will help a lot and it just may be what it takes to get the hang of it. Also keep away from the center of the window until you have it down.

For the pancake position try this.When you have the kite flying nose down, start walking (or running) towards it to help slow it down. At the same time bring your hands way back then throw your hands forward fast as you continue towards the kite. It'll pancake out for you.

For the Turtle it's really just the same thing but nose up.

Move your feet and if the wind is strong, move your feet more. That's key for speed control and introducing slack.

Yup, move your feet!!! In stronger winds, doing a pancake is nearly impossible without a LOT of running and really throwing your hands fast (pancake = belly down, nose away from you). If you want to put the kite on its back as it flies upwards, it is easier to do in stronger winds and doesn't require that much running. To practice, put the kite out on the furthest edge of the window as this will require the least amount of running but you will still need to walk towards the kite and throw (not slowly move hands forward - THROW) your hands forward to get it to flare out. The tail weights will help with pitch based tricks - but you can always try it with or without the weights pretty simple enough so give it a try and see for yourself which you like better.

Also, try setting your bridle a lot heavier as this too will help with pitching the kite.

Just a tip about going into a Turtle (belly up, nose away from you), when your hands are in back of you. Before you throw them forward to give slack. give your wrists a quick pop backwards.

What this pop does is pull the nose of the kite towards you creating pressure on the nose. When you give slack (immediately) to the lines, the pressure will push the nose away from you and help (greatly) to put the kite into the turtle position.

For the pancake, don't start the kite at the top of the window. Start in the middle (hight wise) of the window, and as soon as the kite is nose down; do your pancake movements fast. This way the kite is not fully powered-up and you don't have to run to compensate for the speed of the kite.

I would like to suggest -- try flaring upwards, which will be a turtle - go to almost the top of the window, and when the kite is almost stalled, do the inputs as an Old Man advises, and the kite will go into turtle mode , which is opposite to the pancake. You will have more control of the kite this way, and can see what inputs you need to achieve the pancake. If it is possible that we can meet, i am most willing to show you some points on the basics of flying.

tempest, at some point I will get up your way to meet you. I am grateful for your offer of help. I think that with some guidance and constructive criticism I will move ahead much more quickly.

I noticed that the tail weight on my Soul is not really a weight at all, but just a cap with no real weight to it at all. I might have to spin a couple of weights up on the lathe (or just use the one from my SF for now) to see if there is any difference.

I am still using 90#x75' lines which I feel are too light and short for the Soul. I am going to get some 150# x 100 and see what difference that makes.

No adjustments should be needed on those kites. They are excellent allaround designs that will pancake and turtle fine. More weight can help a kite roll up faster but at the expense of other characteristics.

I'm with Allen on this one, I don't know that weight helps that much in getting into a Pancake or Turtle. Those tricks were developed & common long before adding weight was popular.

Oldmans suggestion is right on, that small FORCEFUL pop before giving slack helps to get into a Turtle. Then it's how much you need to move forward, which is dependent on the wind. Some kites given enough slack will continue through the Turtle and roll up.

High in the window does help at first but doesn't lead well into doing Lazy Susan's, I find that too high and your pulling at too large of an angle on the kite and may pull it out of the Turtle or out of the sky into a tumbling lazy. So after you get the feel for them work your way down to help with your transistion to the next steps you'll be taking.

Of course the Turtle is easier to get into from a Stall rather then at speed, Stall the kite, pull back as if to regain forward speed then give slack as soon as the kite begins moving. This will transistion you easier into Roll ups which are Stall the kite, a small pop to get the nose to fall towards you then a harder pop followed by lots of slack to complete the Roll up.

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"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw

Let us not move too fast forward, as SMG is only a beginner and he should not be concerned with roll-ups, lazy suzans, weights , nor heavier lines, but he should concentrate on learning the bare basics as pull turns, push turns, combination turns, snap stalls, landings, and ground recoveries. From there , tricks will start to fall in line.

Cool, thanks all for the replies. I still think that my lines are too short, and would feel better with higher test lines.

I have been pretty successful in learning the basics, pull turns, push turns, snap stalls, combination turns, and ground recoveries (though if that darn kite falls on its face with the nose towards me I am done, gotta do the walk of shame). I can do the odd flapjack and backspin, but only if the wind is light enough.

I won't change anything on the kites, I just wondered about if more weight would help the Soul flare or turtle. I wonder if the fact that both my kites are rather large at 2.5 meters keeps them from reacting quickly to inputs. I wonder if a smaller kite would be easier to learn tricks on.

Be careful about putting too much tail weight. It's true that flying down, more tail weight will allow the kite to flare quicker but the drawback is that it might get more difficult to pull it back into a fade.

A smaller kite does react quicker and executes quicker, often not a good thing when first learning, things happen quicker making your timing much more critical.

I'm not a fan of lines longer then 85', others swear by them, that's a personal thing and you may find 100' suits you better. GWTW has a few choices in the 100' - 120' range ask Steve to send along a set of leaders too, you might find them helpfull, some say they fall away quicker helping to avoid tip wraps etc.

Patience, I've been flying since the early 1980's and my bag of consistant tricks is still sorely limited (but i don't have the patience to spend hours on one trick). You're doing well & have completely capable equipment at hand. Practice, watch the video's, I find RandyG's to be easy to follow, ask questions, find some other area fliers if you can, , they'll come.

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"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw

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