I have always viewed suicide as generally a coward's way out. In the case of terminal illness where there is great pain and/or disability, I could see possible justiifcation for such an action, but for those who just have a messed up life I cannot. I firmly believe it is better to work out of the mess. Everyone has the ability to make a positive impact on society and in some cases those people who believe they have a mess in their lives do not see the benefits others may get from them.

The old movie "It's a Wonderful Life" is cheesy and corny, but there is a big dose of real understanding on the interaction benefits in it.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

I have always viewed suicide as generally a coward's way out. In the case of terminal illness where there is great pain and/or disability, I could see possible justiifcation for such an action, but for those who just have a messed up life I cannot. I firmly believe it is better to work out of the mess. Everyone has the ability to make a positive impact on society and in some cases those people who believe they have a mess in their lives do not see the benefits others may get from them.

The old movie "It's a Wonderful Life" is cheesy and corny, but there is a big dose of real understanding on the interaction benefits in it.

Isn't it the case that the nouns cowardice or bravery when used in conjunction with the concept of suicide cannot be judged properly by a stable mind.

I have always viewed suicide as generally a coward's way out. In the case of terminal illness where there is great pain and/or disability, I could see possible justiifcation for such an action, but for those who just have a messed up life I cannot. I firmly believe it is better to work out of the mess. Everyone has the ability to make a positive impact on society and in some cases those people who believe they have a mess in their lives do not see the benefits others may get from them.

The old movie "It's a Wonderful Life" is cheesy and corny, but there is a big dose of real understanding on the interaction benefits in it.

Isn't it the case that the nouns cowardice or bravery when used in conjunction with the concept of suicide cannot be judged properly by a stable mind.

I suppose, but it is also clear the act of suicide is often considered to be an "easy" way out by some and that view is skewed by not considering the total ramifications of the action especially to those remaining after.

I have spoken with more than a view law enforcement officers over the years regarding suicides, partly due to my driving past a young woman just before she used a high powered rifle to end her life many years ago. The consensus is that most women try to consider the people who will come after and most men do not. That includes the friends and/or family who may discover the act, the responders, and the like. That level of thought should include more of the later impacts, IMHO, but then again the males do not seem to think that much about any of the aspect.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

I have always viewed suicide as generally a coward's way out. In the case of terminal illness where there is great pain and/or disability, I could see possible justiifcation for such an action, but for those who just have a messed up life I cannot. I firmly believe it is better to work out of the mess. Everyone has the ability to make a positive impact on society and in some cases those people who believe they have a mess in their lives do not see the benefits others may get from them.

The old movie "It's a Wonderful Life" is cheesy and corny, but there is a big dose of real understanding on the interaction benefits in it.

I have always viewed suicide as generally a coward's way out. In the case of terminal illness where there is great pain and/or disability, I could see possible justiifcation for such an action, but for those who just have a messed up life I cannot. I firmly believe it is better to work out of the mess. Everyone has the ability to make a positive impact on society and in some cases those people who believe they have a mess in their lives do not see the benefits others may get from them.

The old movie "It's a Wonderful Life" is cheesy and corny, but there is a big dose of real understanding on the interaction benefits in it.

Well Wayne, you're an ass.

Considering the source, I will take that as a complement.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

Seriously, you're an ass and talking about something you are totally clueless about. Why are you an ass? Because you don't know pain.

Yeah, you don’t know what pain is. Really, what pain is. Not just what physical but also emotional pain is. I do. Currently, I’m recovering from a double cervical fusion due to two herniated discs and a bone spur that was putting pressure on a root nerve. I’ve been in pain for years, seven to be exact, 24 hours a day some times and hardley anything on another day. Took a good blow to the top of the head, late one evening, that caused that to occur. I’ve been through physical therapy, exercises, traction….and I’ve strived to maintain my health, do my therapy and go beyond and keep in very good shape. Finally, the pain got so bad that I went the final step, surgery to correct the condition and fuse part of my spine together with titanium plate and screws. Made sure I was in good health before hand. I could already to 75 push ups in a row and 50 situps in a row, for my sets.For these past seven years I’ve been working with doctors and nurses, whom I have to give them a rating of my pain level, with 0 being the lowest and 10 being the highest. To get to this point where surgery was the last option is only a 6, or 7 at the most. But it could be constant, day in, day out. So, had the surgery right before New Years in this year of 2012. A complete success for the surgeon, and me. He corrected the stenosis, pressure on the spinal cord, but also whittled that bone spur down. He says that he KNOWS that cause has been corrected. But I still have pain. Currently, its at the 1 to 5 levels, but only with the help of narcotics, legally prescribed to moi, of course. He thinks since this happened so long ago, it may take some time to heal the nerves…..like 3,4, or more months. But, if I am not better, pain wise, in the next 2 months we may need to do another MRI, or maybe a cat scan.Keep in mind that I am only talking about physical pain, and not emotional pain. So I’ve been through this but you know what? I also know what pain level 10 feels like! When I was about 37, I contracted meningioencphalitis , viral in nature. That gave me a level pain 10 and beyond. My brain was swelling, my headaches, well, these were special headaches that pained me so much I started vomiting. At one point I literally felt like I would rather be dead than to endure the pain any longer. Of course if someone were to put a pistol in my hand at that point? No, not quite there yet.I think that I know physical pain. Emotional pain? I believe that I have managed to keep those levels way downs to just the ones, or maybe a two on occasion. Emotional pain?

Well, my sister decided to take her life about 9 years ago. She was in her late fifties, divorced from an alcoholic and verbally abusive husband. Had a son, in elementary school at the time they divorced, and she had to raise him without any support from this husband who could not keep a steady job.She started getting pains. In her legs, arms, neck, you name it. Went through tests, and tests, and tests. Their final prognosis was fibromyalgia. I had never heard about it, has not any other people in the family. Some of us got on the net and saw that a lot of so called experts saw fibromyalgia as more of a mental issue instead of a physical malady. I started thinking that nah, my sister has mental issues that she needs to deal with, get a grip, get some help from a professional in emotional health. Well now, that didn’t help, she was taking a shitload of different medications and mood enhancers, and she was still in pain. I’m still thinking It’s all in her head. Things go on and on, we get together for cookouts, go to the 4th of July fireworks with the kids, who are older now, her’s being 16.One day at work I get a call from my Wife. She says my nephew, her son, came home and found my Sister, in the garage, hung from the rafters. Thing is, night before she tried to commit herself to St. Vincens Hospital that has a wing she was familiar with. They had her come home the night before because the evaluation could find no cause to keep her. I'm at her house, with my wife, trying to console her son. What do I say, other than we love you and are here for you. The house phone rings, while the coroner and the family was still present. I answered it and it was St. Vincents doing a follow up call to see how my sister was doing. I informned them that their services were no longer needed as she had taken her life the night before. We end up having her son in our home for the next two years when he then graduated and went to college.So, yeah, I think I know pain pretty well. I also know that my sister knew pain, probably better than I did, both emotionally as well as physically.

I have no idea what sort of pain her son is in. But, from where he is now, did finish college, has held bs jobs, is currently unemployed and is a jesus freak that has no clear ideas of what he wants for his future. We never could convince him to seek help to relieve his grief as we were unprepared, and not capable of providing him what he needed. I believe his emotional pain is pretty high up on the scale t this day.I remember what a pain level 10 feels like. I have no idea what a pain level 10, as measured emotionally, and possibly along with physical pain could possibly feel like. But, I do know this. I would dare not call anybody a coward for ending their pain because, I do not know what their pain felt like, at that last fleeting moment of their life.

But, you do, and feel an obligation to automatically brand someone a coward who take their life?

Seriously, you're an ass and talking about something you are totally clueless about. Why are you an ass? Because you don't know pain.

Yeah, you don’t know what pain is. Really, what pain is. Not just what physical but also emotional pain is. I do. Currently, I’m recovering from a double cervical fusion due to two herniated discs and a bone spur that was putting pressure on a root nerve. I’ve been in pain for years, seven to be exact, 24 hours a day some times and hardley anything on another day. Took a good blow to the top of the head, late one evening, that caused that to occur. I’ve been through physical therapy, exercises, traction….and I’ve strived to maintain my health, do my therapy and go beyond and keep in very good shape. Finally, the pain got so bad that I went the final step, surgery to correct the condition and fuse part of my spine together with titanium plate and screws. Made sure I was in good health before hand. I could already to 75 push ups in a row and 50 situps in a row, for my sets.For these past seven years I’ve been working with doctors and nurses, whom I have to give them a rating of my pain level, with 0 being the lowest and 10 being the highest. To get to this point where surgery was the last option is only a 6, or 7 at the most. But it could be constant, day in, day out. So, had the surgery right before New Years in this year of 2012. A complete success for the surgeon, and me. He corrected the stenosis, pressure on the spinal cord, but also whittled that bone spur down. He says that he KNOWS that cause has been corrected. But I still have pain. Currently, its at the 1 to 5 levels, but only with the help of narcotics, legally prescribed to moi, of course. He thinks since this happened so long ago, it may take some time to heal the nerves…..like 3,4, or more months. But, if I am not better, pain wise, in the next 2 months we may need to do another MRI, or maybe a cat scan.Keep in mind that I am only talking about physical pain, and not emotional pain. So I’ve been through this but you know what? I also know what pain level 10 feels like! When I was about 37, I contracted meningioencphalitis , viral in nature. That gave me a level pain 10 and beyond. My brain was swelling, my headaches, well, these were special headaches that pained me so much I started vomiting. At one point I literally felt like I would rather be dead than to endure the pain any longer. Of course if someone were to put a pistol in my hand at that point? No, not quite there yet.I think that I know physical pain. Emotional pain? I believe that I have managed to keep those levels way downs to just the ones, or maybe a two on occasion. Emotional pain?

Well, my sister decided to take her life about 9 years ago. She was in her late fifties, divorced from an alcoholic and verbally abusive husband. Had a son, in elementary school at the time they divorced, and she had to raise him without any support from this husband who could not keep a steady job.She started getting pains. In her legs, arms, neck, you name it. Went through tests, and tests, and tests. Their final prognosis was fibromyalgia. I had never heard about it, has not any other people in the family. Some of us got on the net and saw that a lot of so called experts saw fibromyalgia as more of a mental issue instead of a physical malady. I started thinking that nah, my sister has mental issues that she needs to deal with, get a grip, get some help from a professional in emotional health. Well now, that didn’t help, she was taking a shitload of different medications and mood enhancers, and she was still in pain. I’m still thinking It’s all in her head. Things go on and on, we get together for cookouts, go to the 4th of July fireworks with the kids, who are older now, her’s being 16.One day at work I get a call from my Wife. She says my nephew, her son, came home and found my Sister, in the garage, hung from the rafters. Thing is, night before she tried to commit herself to St. Vincens Hospital that has a wing she was familiar with. They had her come home the night before because the evaluation could find no cause to keep her. I'm at her house, with my wife, trying to console her son. What do I say, other than we love you and are here for you. The house phone rings, while the coroner and the family was still present. I answered it and it was St. Vincents doing a follow up call to see how my sister was doing. I informned them that their services were no longer needed as she had taken her life the night before. We end up having her son in our home for the next two years when he then graduated and went to college.So, yeah, I think I know pain pretty well. I also know that my sister knew pain, probably better than I did, both emotionally as well as physically.

I have no idea what sort of pain her son is in. But, from where he is now, did finish college, has held bs jobs, is currently unemployed and is a jesus freak that has no clear ideas of what he wants for his future. We never could convince him to seek help to relieve his grief as we were unprepared, and not capable of providing him what he needed. I believe his emotional pain is pretty high up on the scale t this day.I remember what a pain level 10 feels like. I have no idea what a pain level 10, as measured emotionally, and possibly along with physical pain could possibly feel like. But, I do know this. I would dare not call anybody a coward for ending their pain because, I do not know what their pain felt like, at that last fleeting moment of their life.

But, you do, and feel an obligation to automatically brand someone a coward who take their life?

I am sorry for you current pain and for your loss.

Maybe you should have read my post a little more closely as you seemed to have missed an important part .... In the case of terminal illness where there is great pain and/or disability, I could see possible justiifcation for such an action, but for those who just have a messed up life I cannot.

As you stated there was a lot of pain invloved, which could not be identifed to a particular source. It may be assumed to have been mental, but as in the case of your pain the organic nerve responses may actually be indicating pain where medicine cannot identify a physical cause. There are some cases which are mental, but there are cases where people manifest many other symptoms through belief. There is also the placebo effect where the cure follows the belief there is a cure.

I did not touch on the mental illnesses where the perceprion of reality may be skewed sufficiently to cause suicide, but that is not suidcie in my opinon, but an accidental death. The rationality of the person is shaken and the result does not reflect their normal actions, but that is a long and involved explantation, which did not seem to be needed at the time.

I take it that since you believe I am an ass partly due to your sister's actions, you disagree with that action as being a negative in some manner? Would you call it a brave thing to do or just a choice? Would your opinion change with the removal of the undiagnosed pain? I am sympathetic to those in pain, although my tolerance for pain seems to be much higher than most in comparison. (I had a doctor tell me I did not have a broken bone because I could not have remianed so calm as he manipulated the appendage until the x-ray showed a nice clean break of one bone) That is why I added the caveat concerning illness and pain. I did not know your sister so I have no idea of the pain she she had or how bad it was in relation to her personal pain scale. That means I cannot judge her actions in any way as a result. You, on the other hand know the situation much better than I, including the aftermath effects. I imagine you have an opinion of the bravery or lack thereof of her fight and final decision based on more information than she had at the time, but that is something you need to deal with personally.

Again, I am sorry for your current pain and you previous loss, but it does not change the very general outlook I have on the subject.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

Since I "don't know pain" I wonder about those broken bones if have dealt wirth over the years in my hands, feet, and ribs. The last trip to the doctor for one of those had him telling me the hand was not broken until the x-rays. My employees know as they have seen me get a 2nd -3rd degree burn from a piece of metal at 300 C (not F) just before getting a phone call and having a calm conversation that did not indicate any problem. My tolerance for pain is fairly high compared to what most people tell me.

As for emotional pain. A while after my father died my mother had a massive heart attack. She was volunteering at a clinic and the doctor recognized the problem and called the ambulance immediately. The ambulance arrived with a defibrulator just as she went into cardiac arrest. If either of those two had not happened she would not have lived past that point. During this time my with was pregnant with our second child, after previously having a mid-term miscarriage. Over the next 18 nonths, my mother had 6 heart attacks and a stroke, which required me to decide each and every time she entered the hospital whether to have them use heroic measures to revive her. Given the history, it was a lot of decision over life or death for a loved one to have to make by anyone. She did not take the impacts well, as she was always active and now could not be. She could not eat her favorite foods or do the things she always had. It took a major toll on her and those of us ariound her. The last heart attack finally did the job, just before Thanksgiving. Also, while my wife was in the birthing classes I was upstairs in the surgical ICV with a collapsed lung being stubborn. Everyone seemed surprised that I was not passing out and more so that I drove myself to the doctor that freaked out and sent me to the hospital in the first place. Just after this my favorite grandmother developed Alzheimer's and required complete care in a nursing home. She was living in the 1940s and thought she was in some kind of jail although she did not know what she had done. Every visit involved begging for me to tell her what had happened and for me to help get her released from that prison. She too finally passed and got her release from that prison. So, no, I have not had any physical or emotional pain at all in my life from which to draw any conclusions.

I forgot my wife, who developed Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA), you know the kind John Carridine had that crippled his hands, just after the birth of our first child. That has been a life long series of pain and complications to be sure. Combined with a period during which she fell and broke her leg in three places. That resulted in a large rod and several screws inserted in her leg and over a year to recover. Much of the initial months she could not move her leg at all. Followed by a heart attack before she was completely healed. The ER was going to send her home, but I suspected she had thrown a clot and argued with the doctor. The lab work finally showed the damage and she was treated. She had an erratic heart beat that often required a trip to the ER, which had finally been cured by heart surgery a year before the broken leg. They had noticed the artreties spasm but did nto think anything of it at the time. The main artery in her heart had spasmed until it closed, causing a heart attack. Again she was unable to do anything while they tried to stabilize that condition. It is hard to do so we have had several more trips to the ER as a result. One of the drugs which had been used to treat her RA has an uncommon side effect that allows it to reach a level which can sometimes become toxic to the optical nerves. This seems to be the case as her vision had been slowly deteriorating and the doctors can find no problems with her eyes. They do not know how bad it may get or if it may start to reverse at some point, but that is just a wait and see situation since the nerve is one thing there is little they can do to treat.

It is a good thing I do not know anything about pain and suffering as does SiberD .......

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

AHahahahaha! Are we really going to go that route Wayne? My dick is bigger than your's when it comes to pain? LOL!

Broken bones? 2nd and 3rd degree burns on a small part of your body?? You really did not read, nor understood my post. The pain I had before the surgery, and now, is not that bad on a scale of one to ten. Hardly ever goes over a 7 on that scale of 1 to 10. Its constant but manageable. Broken bones, yeah, I've had em, almost everybody has.

Re read my post about the meningitis. Imagine having a migrane headache that is in degrees of many times over of what a severe migrane is...to the point of vomiting your guts out repeatedly. Of not being able to tolerate light, even small amounts, as it would worsen the severity. That, is pain and I seriously doubt you have ever experienced anything close to that. Broken bones and burns, LOL!

Emotional pain? As I said, and maybe you missed, I have fortunately been spared that for the most part as I am pretty tough cookie in that regard. Yeah, we have all lost loved ones, gone through grief and suffered pain.

Quote:

I take it that since you believe I am an ass partly due to your sister's actions, you disagree with that action as being a negative in some manner? Would you call it a brave thing to do or just a choice? Would your opinion change with the removal of the undiagnosed pain? I am sympathetic to those in pain,

Wow, you are sympathetic to those in pain, but still consider suicide an act of cowardice? You really are clueless to emotional pain, as am I. I have no idea what was going through my sister's mind, both in physical and emotional pain. Never will. And no, it was not a brave thing for her to do. I am still angry with her. If she decided to end it I wish she would have done it a different way.

No, she didn't need to go out and hang herself in the garage, in August with the temps in the 90's, while her 16 year old son was staying over with friends for the weekend. So, when he gets home and finds her in this 90+ degree garage, where she had been hanging for two days, body all bloated up, feces on the floor where she shit herself? He is the one that has severe emotional pain that has not been totally dealt with yet and I do not believe you have ever come close to feeling that type of emotional pain.

AHahahahaha! Are we really going to go that route Wayne? My dick is bigger than your's when it comes to pain? LOL!

No, it shows that pain is relative depending on the person.

Quote:

Broken bones? 2nd and 3rd degree burns on a small part of your body?? You really did not read, nor understood my post. The pain I had before the surgery, and now, is not that bad on a scale of one to ten. Hardly ever goes over a 7 on that scale of 1 to 10. Its constant but manageable.

Your scale of 1 to 10 means nothing to anyone but yourself and someone trying to get a relative hadle on it for pain management. You really did not understand the relative natiure of pain did you?

Quote:

Broken bones, yeah, I've had em, almost everybody has.

And the pain response was the same for each of these people? That my clueless friend is the point you missed. I suppose that you held a normal conversation with the doctor as he manipluated one of those broken bones? That was the part the orthopedic surgeon found unusual during the examination and the example to show I know there is a variation in the pain reaction between myself and others.

Quote:

Re read my post about the meningitis. Imagine having a migrane headache that is in degrees of many times over of what a severe migrane is...to the point of vomiting your guts out repeatedly. Of not being able to tolerate light, even small amounts, as it would worsen the severity. That, is pain and I seriously doubt you have ever experienced anything close to that. Broken bones and burns, LOL!

And you believe everyone has the same reaction to pain or have you just jumped into "my pain is worse than yours because"?

Quote:

Emotional pain? As I said, and maybe you missed, I have fortunately been spared that for the most part as I am pretty tough cookie in that regard. Yeah, we have all lost loved ones, gone through grief and suffered pain.

I am sure you are a tough cookie as it seems to be difficult to get logic through the bones in your head. You brought up emotional pain, I did not. I responded to the reference.

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Quote:

I take it that since you believe I am an ass partly due to your sister's actions, you disagree with that action as being a negative in some manner? Would you call it a brave thing to do or just a choice? Would your opinion change with the removal of the undiagnosed pain? I am sympathetic to those in pain,

Wow, you are sympathetic to those in pain, but still consider suicide an act of cowardice?

Since you seem to be unable to read the English language. Let me point out the part where I pointed to severe pain or illness as potentially being a justification ... again.

Quote:

Maybe you should have read my post a little more closely as you seemed to have missed an important part .... In the case of terminal illness where there is great pain and/or disability, I could see possible justiifcation for such an action, but for those who just have a messed up life I cannot.

Quote:

You really are clueless to emotional pain, as am I. I have no idea what was going through my sister's mind, both in physical and emotional pain. Never will. And no, it was not a brave thing for her to do. I am still angry with her. If she decided to end it I wish she would have done it a different way.

You no not disagree with me, but I am an ass? You assumed that I condemned people with pain after I clearly indicated the potential for justification in those cases and I am clueless?

Quote:

Yeah, I still think you're an ass.

I still know you are clueless too.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

Wayne, I was only trying to point out that there are different types of pain, physical, and mental and sometimes the both shall mix. Who are these cowards you speak of that commit suicide, and what you gives you the right to judge them to be cowards?

I know there is emotional pain as well as physical pain, which might be some justification in the case of debilitating long term illness, but not for those who just have a messed up life. +

I knew a guy many years ago who had a lot of personal problems and felt that he could not handle them. His solution was to kill himself by sticking the barrel of a 20 ga. shotgun into his mouth and pulling the trigger. When he got out of the hospital he still had all of the previous personal problems along with some hefty medical bills, and some new personal problems resulting from the lack of a lower jaw.

The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein