If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the forum FAQ and the House Rules and Forum Guidelines.
You will have to register before you can post. If you find your registration is rejected, please try again using a different username. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Suggestions for future versions
Individual ideas on one subject should still be posted in the wishlist thread, however if you want to discuss your idea with others please create your own thread. Please name your topics sensibly and give an indication of what it is about.
For general ideas or a list please use this Wishlist topic. You can view some older suggestions here

Everyone else is not amazing. As in all aspects of life, some are better than others.

As I keep telling you, the game logic changes version by version. Being able to manage tactically and motivationally becomes increasingly more tricky. Just because you aren't perfect at it now doesn't mean you weren't doing the right things in previous FMs. You were doing the right things for those versions of the game. All you need to do is learn how to do it in this version, which I thought you were beginning to grasp.

For example, the logic regarding how mentality works changed relatively significantly in FM07, then again in FM10. AI tactics became fundamentally better in FM10, and have slowly improved since then. The significance of morale and the effect of team talks have also changed considerably over the years, with, despite forum chatter, team talks becoming increasingly less significant.

You also have all the tweaks to AI player behaviour in relation to their emotional state, which are becoming more and more explicit. This has only really taken happened over the last 18 months. Explicit differences in condition and match fitness even more recently.

I could go on, but that should be enough to illustrate the point.

I get what you mean, but what exactly do you mean by the bolded part. I do understand that the series has evolved over time.

But it's a game. It doesn't matter, it has no bearing on anything. If I play a game and can't do well, I stop playing it. If I can't do well and still have fun, I still play it obviously, as it's just a fun thing.

Football Manager isn't anything like football management, the game will intentionally throw matches, it will screw up and it has bugs. You will lose games. Just keep playing until you do well, even edit the game and add managers while you get used to it so you have a ton of money to buy players and get used to what kind of player you need for how you play etc.

You can't be 'perfect' at a video game and getting obsessed about it is pointless. Over-ride your OCD and simply stop playing it if it bothers you so much. Honestly, sell the game to a friend, leave it for a while and play a previous game, anything.

I cant override my OCD its always there. Alex you are like others instead of helping me love FM12 like i used to love others games in the series, you are saying for me to quit playing it and sell it. Thanks alot, i have not played it for nearly a week but i do want to get back in it. Sick of some of you guys telling me to forget about FM, well there is no other PC game i like.

Someone who is good at "football management" (i.e. can read tactics and how games are going, understands some form of psychology, etc.) should likely be very good at this game. The ideal game will present an interface that is so thin and invisible that their in-game actions correspond 1-1 with a real-life action that is anticipated. The "real-life" skill of the manager is then showcased by showing how good they are in the game. In other words, if we could rank real-life managers in ascending order, their corresponding skill in Football Manager should directly correspond to their ranking.

However, the OP feels that the thin and invisible interface is actually a fairly "thick and visible" one. The "game layer" is so thick it changes dramatically (in your words - "increasingly more tricky") after each iteration. This is a failure of the software, likely the interface. The OP perceives himself/herself to have been a fairly good user in Football Manager, and that skill should ideally correspond to a fairly good understanding of "football management". However, when the new version comes round, he cannot apply his skills in the same way to achieve similar results, which is confusing. The OP's skill should not have decreased dramatically, so it is the fault of the game.

The Microsoft Office Ribbon is an example. Studies have shown that experienced users of Office have struggled with the new Ribbon interface introduced in Office 2007 (even until today), while new users are perfectly fine with it. This is because the Ribbon, the software "layer", gets in the way of their ability to type documents. Their word-processing skills have clearly not become dramatically worse overnight - it is the software that is the issue.

A couple of things spring to mind when reading this thread:

- The OP is immediately unaware why he is wrong (he/she has needed to come to this forum and read through lengthy posts, including a tactical dissection by one of the most experienced users on this forum)
- The OP, after being made aware why it is wrong, is unable to reconcile the fix to his/her thinking ("It worked before, why not now?")

One good tip for software design is to never break a user's previous understanding. The OP has suffered from this, and therefore is arguably a software usability flaw.

I don't think software should become "more tricky" over time. I think software should become more "deep", but this does not mean more "tricky". New features and improved features should add more depth, rather than obstacles. New features and improved features should improve the user's experience, not frustrate them (more). If a new feature does not do either of these properly, then that new feature should not be released - that's my view.

I've been of the view that nobody should ever need to visit this forum for help, especially not the tactics forum and its tomes that could be turned into dissertations one day. Visiting this forum should be for users who want to learn more, not about the game. A user should instead learn more about football "in general" and be able to immediately apply this thinking to the game, without having a game layer to translate and understand (i.e. this forum).

Long threads just make things worse for confused users - telling them to "read the stickies" is counter-productive and misses the point.

I cant override my OCD its always there. Alex you are like others instead of helping me love FM12 like i used to love others games in the series, you are saying for me to quit playing it and sell it. Thanks alot, i have not played it for nearly a week but i do want to get back in it. Sick of some of you guys telling me to forget about FM, well there is no other PC game i like.

Are you telling me that out of the tens of thousands of PC titles, you don't like even one other? And why not play previous titles inbetween playing this one? I am not saying sell it out-right, i'm saying play other things, use the editor mode, add managers for fun or anything like that until you enjoy it.

How on earth are we supposed to help you enjoy it? It is the same FM as it always has been, just a bit buggier with alot of little extras. If you don't enjoy FM, you won't enjoy this. If you do enjoy FM, you should enjoy this atleast a little. If you really can't do it then download someones tactics and stick to those forever.

You're making a huge deal out of such a tiny and insignificant thing. How old are you, may I ask?

Someone who is good at "football management" (i.e. can read tactics and how games are going, understands some form of psychology, etc.) should likely be very good at this game. The ideal game will present an interface that is so thin and invisible that their in-game actions correspond 1-1 with a real-life action that is anticipated. The "real-life" skill of the manager is then showcased by showing how good they are in the game. In other words, if we could rank real-life managers in ascending order, their corresponding skill in Football Manager should directly correspond to their ranking.

However, the OP feels that the thin and invisible interface is actually a fairly "thick and visible" one. The "game layer" is so thick it changes dramatically (in your words - "increasingly more tricky") after each iteration. This is a failure of the software, likely the interface. The OP perceives himself/herself to have been a fairly good user in Football Manager, and that skill should ideally correspond to a fairly good understanding of "football management". However, when the new version comes round, he cannot apply his skills in the same way to achieve similar results, which is confusing. The OP's skill should not have decreased dramatically, so it is the fault of the game.

The Microsoft Office Ribbon is an example. Studies have shown that experienced users of Office have struggled with the new Ribbon interface introduced in Office 2007 (even until today), while new users are perfectly fine with it. This is because the Ribbon, the software "layer", gets in the way of their ability to type documents. Their word-processing skills have clearly not become dramatically worse overnight - it is the software that is the issue.

A couple of things spring to mind when reading this thread:

- The OP is immediately unaware why he is wrong (he/she has needed to come to this forum and read through lengthy posts, including a tactical dissection by one of the most experienced users on this forum)
- The OP, after being made aware why it is wrong, is unable to reconcile the fix to his/her thinking ("It worked before, why not now?")

One good tip for software design is to never break a user's previous understanding. The OP has suffered from this, and therefore is arguably a software usability flaw.

I don't think software should become "more tricky" over time. I think software should become more "deep", but this does not mean more "tricky". New features and improved features should add more depth, rather than obstacles. New features and improved features should improve the user's experience, not frustrate them (more). If a new feature does not do either of these properly, then that new feature should not be released - that's my view.

I've been of the view that nobody should ever need to visit this forum for help, especially not the tactics forum and its tomes that could be turned into dissertations one day. Visiting this forum should be for users who want to learn more, not about the game. A user should instead learn more about football "in general" and be able to immediately apply this thinking to the game, without having a game layer to translate and understand (i.e. this forum).

Long threads just make things worse for confused users - telling them to "read the stickies" is counter-productive and misses the point.

I think that is a little unfair.

Firstly, the argument regarding "tricky" or "deep" is purely a semantic one. It is trickier because it is deeper, and visa versa. Aside from that, there has been a continuous movement towards FM requiring good real life football knowledge for a number of years. I'd argue that forum discussions regarding playing FM this way started for FM06, which was the first movement in the switch to the new type of tactical discussion that takes place in the tactics forum nowadays. People involved in this discussion since the start have not had to change the way they approach FM one iota in the last five-six years.

In contrast, there has always been the "challenge the ME" mindset, which results in tactics that beat the ME by exploiting holes the AI can't see/deal with. People playing in this way have to completely change their tactical approaches every time there is a new ME, as the holes they've been exploiting disappear. For this group, there's no consistent logic in the game.

Over the last 5-6 years, ME holes have slowly but surely disappeared, meaning it has become increasingly difficult to build a super-tactic that dominates with any team at any level with any players. It has also become increasingly difficult to build a relatively successful tactical system without some understanding of real life football tactics. The latter issue is the one affecting the OP. He has previously done well by playing around, guessing and experimenting with sliders/tactics, but he's never really had a logical system based on real life tactical theory. For whatever reason, FM12 has been the brick wall for him and his approach.

Having said that, I would agree that there is not enough help for the user in terms of getting them to understand how tactics work in real life and thus the game. However, as you know, any thread trying to detail tactics runs into thousands of words, so there is no easy answer. I think there is validity in questioning whether SI should rely on users to provide this form of knowledge or try to work out how to incorporate it into the game. However, when asking this question, you need to consider the scale of the task of incorporating such a large corpus of knowledge into the game, yet adding it in a manner that doesn't overpower the user.

My own opinion is that if you don't understand tactical basics in real life, you should struggle at FM. However, I don't have an easy answer as to how users can be helped into understanding them without telling them to go and read something.

In all honesty, I find the difficulty fun. Had a blast trying to save Vauxhall from relegation, and enjoyed it even when I failed miserably. (Dead last in the league, Vauxhall relegated into the non-available league void). You just have to accept the challenge in these games. As they say over in Dwarf Fortress, Losing is Fun!

I get what you mean, but what exactly do you mean by the bolded part. I do understand that the series has evolved over time.

As a manager, you are now given far more info about a player's state of mind during a match and can make motivational / tactical adjustments to compensate. For example, if many players are complacent or nervous, you can try to play safer football until half time, and then deal with their psychological issues.

Are you telling me that out of the tens of thousands of PC titles, you don't like even one other? And why not play previous titles inbetween playing this one? I am not saying sell it out-right, i'm saying play other things, use the editor mode, add managers for fun or anything like that until you enjoy it.

How on earth are we supposed to help you enjoy it? It is the same FM as it always has been, just a bit buggier with alot of little extras. If you don't enjoy FM, you won't enjoy this. If you do enjoy FM, you should enjoy this atleast a little. If you really can't do it then download someones tactics and stick to those forever.

You're making a huge deal out of such a tiny and insignificant thing. How old are you, may I ask?

Alex STOP being judegmental. NO i dont want to play other games, NO i dont want to play previous games. Have you not read my posts for gods sake, FM is one of my all time fav game. Plus FM has changed. Its just this game im not enjoying as much.

Firstly, the argument regarding "tricky" or "deep" is purely a semantic one. It is trickier because it is deeper, and visa versa. Aside from that, there has been a continuous movement towards FM requiring good real life football knowledge for a number of years. I'd argue that forum discussions regarding playing FM this way started for FM06, which was the first movement in the switch to the new type of tactical discussion that takes place in the tactics forum nowadays. People involved in this discussion since the start have not had to change the way they approach FM one iota in the last five-six years.

In contrast, there has always been the "challenge the ME" mindset, which results in tactics that beat the ME by exploiting holes the AI can't see/deal with. People playing in this way have to completely change their tactical approaches every time there is a new ME, as the holes they've been exploiting disappear. For this group, there's no consistent logic in the game.

Over the last 5-6 years, ME holes have slowly but surely disappeared, meaning it has become increasingly difficult to build a super-tactic that dominates with any team at any level with any players. It has also become increasingly difficult to build a relatively successful tactical system without some understanding of real life football tactics. The latter issue is the one affecting the OP. He has previously done well by playing around, guessing and experimenting with sliders/tactics, but he's never really had a logical system based on real life tactical theory. For whatever reason, FM12 has been the brick wall for him and his approach.

Having said that, I would agree that there is not enough help for the user in terms of getting them to understand how tactics work in real life and thus the game. However, as you know, any thread trying to detail tactics runs into thousands of words, so there is no easy answer. I think there is validity in questioning whether SI should rely on users to provide this form of knowledge or try to work out how to incorporate it into the game. However, when asking this question, you need to consider the scale of the task of incorporating such a large corpus of knowledge into the game, yet adding it in a manner that doesn't overpower the user.

My own opinion is that if you don't understand tactical basics in real life, you should struggle at FM. However, I don't have an easy answer as to how users can be helped into understanding them without telling them to go and read something.

Mate i have and do know some tactics that are applied in real life, so as i dont know alot in real life im gona struggle in the game then as i am currently. Is that what you are saying.

As a manager, you are now given far more info about a player's state of mind during a match and can make motivational / tactical adjustments to compensate. For example, if many players are complacent or nervous, you can try to play safer football until half time, and then deal with their psychological issues.

I get that, but with their state of mind at half time i usually give them individual team talk if they are struggling or are nervous. Plus arent team talks supposed to help the team and motivate them. The team meetings feature is another way to deal with players motivation and how they react to what you say, but it never goes right for me.

Alex STOP being judegmental. NO i dont want to play other games, NO i dont want to play previous games. Have you not read my posts for gods sake, FM is one of my all time fav game. Plus FM has changed. Its just this game im not enjoying as much.

No-one can be this blinkered, go and play the previous games and stop worrying about such a pointless thing if it's giving you such concern.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

Posts

1,269

Originally Posted by omaroo

Im so sad and depressed that unlike previous games where i just guessed and used basic tactics to win everything i cant do that with the new one, im not enjoying it and reading what other people are saying it makes me seems crap at the game. Even though i was gd i think at the others. I have wasted time and electricity on the FM series, but it still one of favourite games. The irony.

Basically, if you have a reasonable grasp of real life tactical ideas and can work out how to logically incorporate them into the game, you are likely to do better than someone who doesn't and/or can't. As FM gets more sophisticated, this understanding is likely to become increasingly important.

Maybe it's because I grew up playing CM2, but to me the most fun aspects of this game have always been buying/selling players, picking your first 11 and actually playing the matches!

Now there's ten million different tactical instructions (with notches from 0-20 for creative freedom, closing down etc...) there's pointless and boring press conferences where the same things are said over and over (and you can't opt to let your assistant handle them because if you do, he'll say something wrong and upset your players)...

I don't understand half the tactical instructions that are in this game and anyway I don't trust the match engine to faithfully reproduce the instructions I've set.

So the way I play this game is as follows:

All my tactical instructions are set to default. I really can't be bothered wasting hours of my life deciding whether I should set creative freedom to notch number 15 or 16 for a player (when setting it to 4 is probably the optimal option but of course I don't know that) or whether I should play fluid but counter attacking football...

No, I just set everything to default. I really can't be bothered lol

I find that quite often as video games become more complex and detailed, they also become less fun and user friendly... or maybe I am just getting older lol

Basically, if you have a reasonable grasp of real life tactical ideas and can work out how to logically incorporate them into the game, you are likely to do better than someone who doesn't and/or can't. As FM gets more sophisticated, this understanding is likely to become increasingly important.

But in previous version i done great and didnt have much or at all any grasp on real life tactics.

But i feel i do know some basic real life tactics and have tried them on FM12, but is that enough.

Maybe it's because I grew up playing CM2, but to me the most fun aspects of this game have always been buying/selling players, picking your first 11 and actually playing the matches!

Now there's ten million different tactical instructions (with notches from 0-20 for creative freedom, closing down etc...) there's pointless and boring press conferences where the same things are said over and over (and you can't opt to let your assistant handle them because if you do, he'll say something wrong and upset your players)...

I don't understand half the tactical instructions that are in this game and anyway I don't trust the match engine to faithfully reproduce the instructions I've set.

So the way I play this game is as follows:

All my tactical instructions are set to default. I really can't be bothered wasting hours of my life deciding whether I should set creative freedom to notch number 15 or 16 for a player (when setting it to 4 is probably the optimal option but of course I don't know that) or whether I should play fluid but counter attacking football...

No, I just set everything to default. I really can't be bothered lol

I find that quite often as video games become more complex and detailed, they also become less fun and user friendly... or maybe I am just getting older lol

LOL mate you must really not like the game

I dont understand this number thing with creative freedom, roaming etc. All i do is move the sliders up and down depending on the situation. Where do such numbers come on.