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It is a little bad for what it asks for, the swap time is definetly sexy, but I don't want to wear pistols or shotguns (or MA for god's sake) to have decent damage.

Agents have 2 lines of critical increase nanos, we are, with this patch getting more and more to that ganking glass canon we are supposed to be, yet still the critical increase nanos and our weapons seem like completely un-compatible, (308) to (350) is negligible, we are not doing no better than before.

Please put a 400 there, even if that small difference. 500 would be ideal, (we still dont pvm outdamage anyone more than now) but please give a rifle for agents, we have been asking for it for a while, and now that finally developers are doing things right, is time to put the rifle agents need.

I think this supports the argument that TL7 Agents are rather lacking in PvM DD, running decidedly below 200k dpm while others run 300k-420k. If this is the case, I think we can safely ask for at least a 50% damage increase.
Does anyone have other comparisons they can contribute? Psikie's numbers suggest a massive improvement in pet professions on low-def targets.

Do any of the rest of you want the ability to have some sort of defense? Like, I don't want to have crazy evades or bio cocoon or anything, but every other prof out there (unless I'm forgetting one) gets to have a choice between at least "good" defenses, and a damage setup. One of the main complaints I always hear out of MPs is that they have a pretty good defensive setup, but they sacrifice all their damage to get there, and their damage setup sacrifices all their defense for almost no damage.

Right now agent has afk-tier damage, and literally nothing in terms of defense. If things keep going this way maybe we'll finally get from afk-tier to gimp-tier, but we're still going to go squish almost instantly. Agent isn't a tank prof or anything, but even shades and NTs have some pretty good defenses that let them survive a surprising amount of punishment at 220.

I guess maybe this should be its own thread, but while I'd love to see agent finally get some damage and/or some real attack range compared to the other profs, I'd also really like to see the ability to sacrifice that damage and become a slippery bastard. Hell, maybe they could even get really creative with it, give us a proc that makes our crits significantly debuff a mob's damage for just a second if it's focused on us, but nerf the power of our crits while we're doing that. Something unusual and agenty rather than the standard "give them tons o' evades", but something that lets us survive and even solo/tank some stuff.

Sorry for rambling, I've got a lot of pent-up frustration about the agent prof!

There seems to be a lot of number cooking going on in these "we are nerf" threads.

Of course agents will have less than stellar numbers vs high HP mobs due to not being able to recycle AS.

Some profs excel at trash mob killing while some excel at high HP targets.

If you discount the numbers where agents excel, of course you're going to get a biased number to present as your worst case scenario and of course it's going to make agents look really bad DPM wise so of course you need a buff.

But that's bullsh*t. We all know agent's strength is in killing trash mobs, so why aren't you guys including DPM under the obvious condition where you excel?

I've pushed numbers WAY in excess of some of these numbers you guys are putting up on my level 200 agent in HP gear. WTF gives?

If you're going to cook numbers so badly to get a "cry me a river" type thing going, I hope you are ready for some pretty strong reactions. I'm calling you all out on this. Lets see some DPM where you're cycling AS as fast as you can.

Not to burst any bubbles or anything, but I've seen agents top the DD charts on many raids where they can get their procs rolling on 2-3 mobs at a time+ dots and keep their AS on CD almost perpetually.

I mean, not to point out the obvious or anything, but you don't hear about how nerfed doc damage is because the trash mobs die so fast they can't their all three dots loaded on them do you? How about Shades? You don't hear shades whining about their lack of DPS because they can only hit 200k DPM because the trash mobs die too fast...

So lets see some proper high end numbers. Bosses only make up the last 30% of a raid. The other 70% is killing adds on the way to the boss... so what's agent doing for the 70%?

Even if ag3nt does 5 13k AS per minute, damage is still bellow 200k mark... so similar damage to doc, enf, defense MP, Trader. Lame keeper, crat pets when they find path, troaler advy... so really comparable to most regular professions.

Why woulf one have agent in team? Ah yes ubt+CH, Second tier profession.

Rifle DD on an agent isn't amazing or anything but saying they can't even push or barely hit 200k is bull, also grabbing old numbers from before 18.7 doesn't help either as agents have access to more dmg through faster perks(slightly weakened) and buffs like saber morph now. Any prof can do bad DPM if you focus on def with little crit/add dmg in their setup, Show some agents with some dmg gear on and suddenly they are hitting 250-270k

I won't use my shotgun agent on test with 400k+ DPM as an excuse since it's kinda OP in damage but even if I swap it to rifle I should still get around 300-320k DPM np.

Rifle DD on an agent isn't amazing or anything but saying they can't even push or barely hit 200k is bull, also grabbing old numbers from before 18.7 doesn't help either as agents have access to more dmg through faster perks(slightly weakened) and buffs like saber morph now. Any prof can do bad DPM if you focus on def with little crit/add dmg in their setup, Show some agents with some dmg gear on and suddenly they are hitting 250-270k

I won't use my shotgun agent on test with 400k+ DPM as an excuse since it's kinda OP in damage but even if I swap it to rifle I should still get around 300-320k DPM np.

The numbers mentioned before are very real and so is the lack of damage on the average agent in PvM. Someone that is playing the extreme will always exist however (Your Shotty setup is the extremer side of this.. ). Fact is that the average Crat will crank out 2x (or more) the damage an average agent can....

Seems you did already parse stuff and thank you for this. Still one minor thing.. Why cant this damage range be done with the primary weapon choise of an Agent...

Not to burst any bubbles or anything, but I've seen agents top the DD charts on many raids where they can get their procs rolling on 2-3 mobs at a time+ dots and keep their AS on CD almost perpetually.

I honestly don't see how this could make up the difference if there were a real DD profession present and doing the same, like, say, a doctor!

Most of the numbers that are getting posted are (or at least people claim) actually exploits, people straight-up cheating as confirmed by the devs to get more dps than agent should be capable of by spamming AS.

I can see an agent pulling super-impressive numbers in the APFs if they FP:NT and spam aoes, it sounds like that's what you're describing specifically. You're right that most raids are 70% killing adds, however the part you completely glossed over is that those parts also generally don't matter at all. The adds are 70% of the raid, but the boss is 99% of the threat. The enforcer just stands there and mongos and most of the raid doesn't even bother to focus-fire and everyone still does fine. Why would you ever invite someone who's good at that as opposed to someone who's good at the part where people might actually die?

And anyway, are you really trying to tell us that agent's specialization is shooting grey mobs, and that that's fine?

There seems to be a lot of number cooking going on in these "we are nerf" threads.
I've pushed numbers WAY in excess of some of these numbers you guys are putting up on my level 200 agent in HP gear. WTF gives?
Lets see some DPM where you're cycling AS as fast as you can.
nerfed doc damage
How about Shades?

Yeah, two years ago I was cooking numbers on five forum accounts.
Remember, the tests are generally on high level Inf or high AC punching bags. You can pick any, provided you compare consistently, and if it lives long enough to stabilize perk cycle and critrate.

The first link above actually had recycling AS. I can sploit with the best of them.
Shades are fine. I roll 200k dpm semi-afk on an ebay-geared NR8 shade on hag adds.
Doc DD is balls, but somehow they get teams. Interestingly, one of the tests linked above had a Doc ODing an Agent while tanking LotV.
As you're pointing out, Agents should be able to re-AS in PvM.

Originally Posted by Cratertina

Even if ag3nt does 5 13k AS per minute, damage is still bellow 200k mark

Actually, this seems correct for live, based on the data we have above on LotV.
My latest on a high AC bag on test was about 220k dpm, which is a notable improvement. Missing some +damage though. I think the biggest buffs are the added passive crit and the new rifle. I'd still prefer to be able to compete at ~300k dpm with a rifle as a glass cannon.

Originally Posted by Rockdizzle

Rifle DD on an agent isn't amazing or anything but saying they can't even push or barely hit 200k is bull, also grabbing old numbers from before 18.7 doesn't help either as agents have access to more dmg through faster perks(slightly weakened) and buffs like saber morph now. Any prof can do bad DPM if you focus on def with little crit/add dmg in their setup, Show some agents with some dmg gear on and suddenly they are hitting 250-270k

I doubt your agent will hit 300-320k dpm. However, I'm talking about a high AC punching bag (or LotV) which is what we have for comparison to other professions. We may be testing on different things, which will cause communication errors.
If we move to a lower AC target, I think things get worse for Agent. Psikie's test had a Crat at 447k dpm, increasing it's ~2x lead on the Agent. If I get time, I'll fire up a shade or crat and see how it is.

Even if ag3nt does 5 13k AS per minute, damage is still bellow 200k mark... so similar damage to doc, enf, defense MP, Trader. Lame keeper, crat pets when they find path, troaler advy... so really comparable to most regular professions.

Why woulf one have agent in team? Ah yes ubt+CH, Second tier profession.

Rifle DD on an agent isn't amazing or anything but saying they can't even push or barely hit 200k is bull, also grabbing old numbers from before 18.7 doesn't help either as agents have access to more dmg through faster perks(slightly weakened) and buffs like saber morph now. Any prof can do bad DPM if you focus on def with little crit/add dmg in their setup, Show some agents with some dmg gear on and suddenly they are hitting 250-270k

I won't use my shotgun agent on test with 400k+ DPM as an excuse since it's kinda OP in damage but even if I swap it to rifle I should still get around 300-320k DPM np.

I agree - I'm not looking for stupid setup DD.. but it's also absolutely mind-bogglingly retarded to say that an agent can only produce 127k DPM... I mean, that's like "sorry guys, I forgot to buff; umm oh ya I forgot to perk too, umm what crit? no I have pred on from level 90, and ya I'm still using an SPS"

I want to see people TRYING to do damage. posting garbage is posting garbage.

Originally Posted by Litestrider

I honestly don't see how this could make up the difference if there were a real DD profession present and doing the same, like, say, a doctor!

Most of the numbers that are getting posted are (or at least people claim) actually exploits, people straight-up cheating as confirmed by the devs to get more dps than agent should be capable of by spamming AS.

I can see an agent pulling super-impressive numbers in the APFs if they FP:NT and spam aoes, it sounds like that's what you're describing specifically. You're right that most raids are 70% killing adds, however the part you completely glossed over is that those parts also generally don't matter at all. The adds are 70% of the raid, but the boss is 99% of the threat. The enforcer just stands there and mongos and most of the raid doesn't even bother to focus-fire and everyone still does fine. Why would you ever invite someone who's good at that as opposed to someone who's good at the part where people might actually die?

And anyway, are you really trying to tell us that agent's specialization is shooting grey mobs, and that that's fine?

What gray mobs? Have you been to APF lately? I took my box into S28 to help a guy get a belt last night and got WTF waxed by 16 QL 250 advanced sentry mobs paired with about 8 220 bouncy mobs. If you don't think trash mobs are dangerous... you spend too much time buying LR and not enough time fighting through to boss. You really think the bosses are the danger on S35? wow.

You REALLY think beast kills teams? The only wipes on beast I've seen in the last 3 years occur because of adds. Ya, nukes do damage but doc's don't die to nukes, they die to adds. If you're serious about thinking that killing trash mobs is useless, I suggest sticking to DB1, because that's the only instance I know where trash mobs don't represent a credible threat.

Originally Posted by srompu

You can pick any, provided you compare consistently, and if it lives long enough to stabilize perk cycle and critrate.

Obviously this is the point. Stabilized DPM on an agent falls every 12 seconds. If a mob spends more than 12s alive, agent DPM drops.

Lets see some numbers where there's more than one target... MOST of the game is played with more than one target I don't see why you guys need to QQ a river because you want to hit a punching bag which is a completely different environment from what real combat looks like, and then try to say that Agent DD is nerf because punching bag and internet. WTF

Originally Posted by srompu

As you're pointing out, Agents should be able to re-AS in PvM.

And they DO, in real combat. So man up and go hit some mobs and show us the DD logs.

Originally Posted by srompu

My latest on a high AC bag on test was about 220k dpm, which is a notable improvement. Missing some +damage though. I think the biggest buffs are the added passive crit and the new rifle. I'd still prefer to be able to compete at ~300k dpm with a rifle as a glass cannon.

So build the setup for it. The people you're comparing to build setups created for damage and then you guys build setups that have the intent to show nerf. Compare best DD with best DD, otherwise it's not worth comparing.

Originally Posted by srompu

We may be testing on different things, which will cause communication errors.

I'm willing to overlook the potential issues that arise by saying, lets try to find max damage rates for this prof to compare to max damage rates for other profs.

As far as I remember, add damage is, broadly speaking, better than high crit for agent. with the number of proc chances agent has per primary contact (shot fired) agent has the second highest number per minute after shade. Yes, crit helps, but add damage is very close - I think in the range of 10-12 add dmg ~1% crit, so almost every slot is better spent on add dmg than crit.

"Why cant this damage range be done with the primary weapon choise of an Agent..." Could ask the same question with any other prof and the answer would always be because of taking advantage of game mechanics.

Decided to throw rifle on and get some DD parses up
same setup as before besides using 9% crit scope instead of off hud. plenty of alternatives like 14-15% crit scope, DB sleeves, MOTR, aqua utils, Superior combat tuner can be used instead for cheaper but just as good DD.

7 min runs on high AC punching bug runs will likely be a little longer so averages will be a bit higher than shown.
1: 2,073,660 : Slysniper : 93.7% | 292,752 | 190-67-519 7 mins 5 secs kinda a bad run didn't have dot up for a little over 1 min. no AS at start.
1: 2,141,824 : Slysniper : 91.6% | 290,745 | 190-66-575 7 mins 22 secs this is the third run as I messed up the second and didn't clear dmg window from the first run. also no AS

*High AC punching bug is kinda of a worst case scenario as unless you only kill mobs with 50k+ ACs(none exist if I recall correctly)some of your perks will hit more than min dmg due to 9.3k AC drains and Rifle has an amazing max dmg range of 580 for aliens.

Lets see some numbers where there's more than one target... MOST of the game is played with more than one target I don't see why you guys need to QQ a river because you want to hit a punching bag which is a completely different environment from what real combat looks like, and then try to say that Agent DD is nerf because punching bag and internet. WTF

And they DO, in real combat. So man up and go hit some mobs and show us the DD logs.

So build the setup for it. The people you're comparing to build setups created for damage and then you guys build setups that have the intent to show nerf. Compare best DD with best DD, otherwise it's not worth comparing.

I'm willing to overlook the potential issues that arise by saying, lets try to find max damage rates for this prof to compare to max damage rates for other profs.

I'm starting to think you're just trolling, based on your language. You even quoted my response to someone else.
I've just posted numbers, linked to setups, hit mobs, and used DD gear.
If you're interested in contributing, please do so.

For what it's worth, on the Gan'Kar, 1 crit seems to match about 18 or 24 damage, for high AC and low AC targets respectively.

Originally Posted by Rockdizzle

"Why cant this damage range be done with the primary weapon choise of an Agent..." Could ask the same question with any other prof and the answer would always be because of taking advantage of game mechanics.
*High AC punching bug is kinda of a worst case scenario as unless you only kill mobs with 50k+ ACs(none exist if I recall correctly)some of your perks will hit more than min dmg due to 9.3k AC drains and Rifle has an amazing max dmg range of 580 for aliens.

That's pretty solid dps actually. I appreciate the test.
I'm not asking to duplicate the damage with a rifle, just that rifle be competitive with the baseline of other professions. I've gone MA just for the triple-wield, but it really trashes a toon.
I'm using high AC bag because it seemed like a best-case scenario for agents given our high critrate mitigates the min damage on our weapon. I might be wrong though. It's easy to compare to other testing sources like LotV too, and I guess it's what I started with. Makes it tricky to compare. My low AC crit/reg numbers are about 40% higher than high AC, so what we're getting might actually be consistent.

I'm going to go verify and then check another profession or two. To make sure I'm clear, you're using the bag by Auto for all damage so far, including the one just posted?

I use the Punching Bug with its impossibly high ACs, the only test I used the new Punching Bag(literal punching bag) on was to get DD just on dmg perks since Punching Bug is not a good test mob for it.