Post by elkclan2 on Mar 7, 2018 5:54:24 GMT -5

Also I want you to quit the marriage counselling. It's a bad call in an abusive relationship. Marriage counselling is about half and half, two sides to every story. That's not the situation you're in. elynne

I’ll check out the website! And I’d love to come to London for a warm beer and a chat! Just had a call to ask if I’d like to do a joint exhibition - May 7. I’ve got a solo show I’m preparing for - opening beginning of April and just confirmed another joint exhibition for September. So I’m juggling, juggling. Plus a few commissions I need to finish. It’s good to be busy - scheduling may be difficult but not insurmountable. It would be great to meet you!

Post by elkclan2 on Mar 7, 2018 6:57:04 GMT -5

elynne Us expats gotta stick together! Sounds like you're an artist - just remember all the major museums in London are FREEEEEEE! I'm not mad keen on English painters (shhh don't tell anyone here) but the collections are big and eclectic. And the beer is not warm, it is 'cellar cool'.

Post by elynne on Mar 7, 2018 7:43:51 GMT -5

Also I want you to quit the marriage counselling. It's a bad call in an abusive relationship. Marriage counselling is about half and half, two sides to every story. That's not the situation you're in. elynne

I was wondering why our therapist hasn’t stepped up here. She has a fairly accurate picture of the dynamics.

Tonight I’ll give her the chance. Perhaps it’ll be our last counseling session.

Post by elkclan2 on Mar 7, 2018 15:26:36 GMT -5

Steven Sosny who wrote Love Without Hurt (one of the best books I read and the one that helped me to not reject the super nice guy who is now my partner) has this article about emotionally abusive relationships and marriage counselling:

although I dislike this 'age of entitlement' thing - people have been saying since ancient greek times that 'kids today... don't know how good they have it, blah, blah, blah' - I mean, I find myself doing it, too with my son, but it's human, I guess.

Post by elynne on Mar 7, 2018 16:42:51 GMT -5

Steven Sosny who wrote Love Without Hurt (one of the best books I read and the one that helped me to not reject the super nice guy who is now my partner) has this article about emotionally abusive relationships and marriage counselling:

although I dislike this 'age of entitlement' thing - people have been saying since ancient greek times that 'kids today... don't know how good they have it, blah, blah, blah' - I mean, I find myself doing it, too with my son, but it's human, I guess.

Fuck! I prepared myself to really lay it on the table in therapy this evening.

I did. I said that our relationship didn’t have a foundation of safety or respect. That on the few occasions I attempted to reach out for closeness I was pushed away (literally or figuratively). That I was done trying. H said that when I touch him he literally freezes. He feels like I’m raping him. He feels violated. He said that if our genders had been reversed that I should be arrested. Wow. That’s quite strong language for your wife trying to kiss you!

I asked him, “Really? You felt like I was raping you?” Then he started to back peddle. “Maybe that’s too strong.”

It was one of the less disastrous sessions we’ve had. But it basically ended with me getting the advice of having to be more considerate of him at dinner parties. (I’m naturally extroverted - he’s more reticent) and he feels I don’t defer to him enough (ok - I’m not being fair.) That he feels that I have to be the center of attention. “It’s the elynne show. No one can get a word in.”

I said, I was really aware that you might feel that way. I ‘threw the conversational ball’ to you a few times. eg. “That’s reminds me when my friend’s husband lent the neighbor his chainsaw. oh H can tell it better...”

Therapist said - the way you talk to e, you’re saying things in an unnecessarily hurtful and cruel way. Not only are the things that you’re saying difficult to hear, but the manner that you say them is hurtful.

Eventually we got around to the fact that we could have a signal for me to stop talking. If it’s agreed that he gives the signal and I can’t talk, I have to be prepared that it may come before I’m ready to stop talking but I have to listen.

I said, no. We already have a problem with power and control in our relationship. This feels like giving him control over when I can speak and when I can’t speak. He could decide I can’t talk the whole night. I’m not ok with that.

Arfhjkkkytchk!!!! So completely frustrated. My problem is that he pushes me away. Threatens divorce and then switches position without informing me. That he’s hypercritical, frequently belittles me, my work, puts down my friends, harasses me over complete bullshit. Despite all this I sometimes work up the courage to try to connect with him and he pushes me away.

Yet the session focuses on his issue that I talk too much at dinner parties. We go to a dinner party maybe once a year!! Perhaps if I weren’t so fucking lonely at home I wouldn’t be so desperate to connect with people.

Is it possible to call the therapist and discuss my concerns? H was late for our session today and when I tried bring up my concerns she stopped me - saying we should wait for h.

I also think she has the impression that I’m chasing him and really working to engage him, and thus pushing him away. This dynamic is new (over the last 6 months or so.) Prior I was always trying not to rock the boat. Now I really just don’t give a fuck. I’d be happy to sink the boat and swim to shore. Thus I speak up when he’s saying something unkind. But for years I sucked it up and kept my mouth shut to keep the peace.

Oh - this was long winded! But I think you’re right. Marriage counseling is a disaster in our case.

Post by baza on Mar 8, 2018 1:37:29 GMT -5

Joint therapy is ALWAYS limited to the level of engagement of "the least invested participant" in the process.

If your spouse is only putting in 15%, that's the limit for the therapy. 15% effective - max.The fact that you might be putting in 95% doesn't count. There is still only that 15% effective - max.

For joint therapy, you need -(a) - a highly competent counsellor (it seems highly questionable that you have that)(b) - a reasonably functional spouse keen to get to the truth (that appears to be present in you)(c) - another reasonably functional spouse also keen to get to the truth (that does not appear to be present in him)

Your call whether you continue with this joint set up, but to me it looks like a waste of time and money.

You would likely get waaaay more value out of personal counselling, in defining what you want and what you are going to have to do to get it.

Post by DryCreek on Mar 8, 2018 2:34:46 GMT -5

elynne, marriage therapy may indeed be a useful tool for some situations - like, a young couple that's struggling with a new life together. But in the cases here it seems to fall short. I think because so many "marriage counselors" are really just facilitators - focused on helping couples communicate, not addressing psychotherapy issues. (a la her not being willing to listen to your issues without him present.) A lot of them seem to be over their heads when it comes to sexlessness.

Post by elynne on Mar 8, 2018 3:22:38 GMT -5

Joint therapy is ALWAYS limited to the level of engagement of "the least invested participant" in the process.

If your spouse is only putting in 15%, that's the limit for the therapy. 15% effective - max.The fact that you might be putting in 95% doesn't count. There is still only that 15% effective - max.

For joint therapy, you need -(a) - a highly competent counsellor (it seems highly questionable that you have that)(b) - a reasonably functional spouse keen to get to the truth (that appears to be present in you)(c) - another reasonably functional spouse also keen to get to the truth (that does not appear to be present in him)

Your call whether you continue with this joint set up, but to me it looks like a waste of time and money.

You would likely get waaaay more value out of personal counselling, in defining what you want and what you are going to have to do to get it.

I started individual therapy concurrent with our joint therapy. Joint therapy (in theory) every two weeks. Individual therapy once a month. Interestingly H started individual therapy on his own - could have knocked me over with a feather!

You’re right - individual therapy thus far is helpful, hard, but enlightening. Couples therapy seems to be making things worse rather than better. I feel a bit crazy, but it seems to me that I did all the bending to keep peace. (Crazy shit like I can’t do laundry weekdays before 10pm but no machines on after he goes to bed) thus mountains of laundry to do every weekend - and a weekend away meant two weeks of laundry to do the next weekend. I went along with it resentfully for years.

Anyway- it seems couples therapy is supporting all his demands, asking me to flex and ignoring the fact that our historical ‘midpoint’ for compromise is already far to his side.

Your point about percentages is really true! I reluctantly agreed to try, but then decided ok. Let’s really work on it. Actually listen, do the work. Face fears. Do the assignments.

H - not so much. He shows up a little if I pull back, don’t engage and really walk on eggshells. But if I really try to work on us, connect with him, he turns extremely dismissive, condescending.

I think I’m answering my own questions here.

But WHY do I blame myself for the relationship failing when it seems I’m the one trying so hard?! When I tell him I feel like I’ve been trying on my own for 8 years. That you checked out. His reply, “Well you obviously haven’t been doing the right things. What have you done? Give me examples.”

I, a bit ashamed, said I can’t think of any examples right now. But at least I try. You admit yourself you haven’t even tried. That you decided to put ‘us’ on the back burner and focus on other things for 8 years.

Why? Why do I feel like the failure? He’s the one pushing away, creating distance, dismissing. I think the joint therapist is wrong. I think our problems right now are much more about power and control and the fact that I’ve decided not to take it sitting down anymore.

Post by ted on Mar 8, 2018 3:45:13 GMT -5

elynne, that sounds awful! He leaves emboldened, with "professional" assent that you're the problem, and you leave invalidated and with dashed hope. He said he thinks a wife's active desire for her husband is immoral, criminal, and that you should be punished for it. He wants people with guns to protect him from your marital overtures. How in the world can you get from here to where you want to be?

Please don't lose yourself in this ridiculous therapy. Gaslighting, now with third-party cooperation. You're not the crazy one. You're throwing your pearls before swine at this point. Stop, and rescue yourself.

Post by ted on Mar 8, 2018 3:56:56 GMT -5

I think our problems right now are much more about power and control and the fact that I’ve decided not to take it sitting down anymore.

Exactly. You certainly aren't jointly working on having the marriage you both want. He's got the marriage he wants, and that's under threat now that you're waking up and defending your right to be a person too.

frednsa: i saw something on the wedding night (in the 60's) should have ended it during the honeymoon. i was played so perfectly. she is so wonderful in almost every other way, so...still wondering...thinking frigidity is a real thing and untreatableAug 29, 2019 12:07:04 GMT -5