Ten generations later one of her descendants became Lady Glamis. She had a daughter Elizabeth Lyon the mother of Elizabeth Windsor who became Queen of England......

Queen Elizabeth has three lines from Brian Boru, according to my handy Royal Line of Succession booklet. Two come via her mother and one from Aoife, daughter of Dermot MacMurrough, King of Leinster, (d. 1171) who married Richard Strongbow, Earl of Pembroke, which wends its way through the Mortimers to Richard, Duke of York, and so on down to James VI and I.

Said Dermot MacMurrough had another daughter, Urlachan, who married Donnell More, King of Thomond (d. 1194). He was a descendant of Brian Boru as well, so this is where two lines meet and run down through the Kings of Thomond to Mary, sister of the 1st Earl of Inquin, who married Michael Boyle, Archbishop of Armagh. This it runs from their daughter Eleanor into the Hills, the Wellesleys, Cavenish-Bentincks to the Queen Mum.

I thought the Normans with Richard Strongbow, Chief Justicar of Ireland, ended Gaelic control there ???

Strongbow, a Norman, married an Irish woman and I don't know the history immediately thereafter but I know the Cambro-Normans were extremely powerful in Ireland from 1170 AD on. Oliver Cromwell definitely ended all of that, but I think you are saying that the Gaelic royalty regained control of Ireland in the interim. I'm not that familiar with the history. What happened?

It is my understanding that Dermot MacMurrough, King of Leinster was ousted by the O'Connor King of Connaght.

Dermot MacMurrough went to the British Isles and returned with Strongbow who helped him regain his Kingship. Strongbow married Dermot MacMurrough's daughter, and upon Dermot MacMurrough's death shortly thereafter Strongbow claimed the Kingship in Leinster.

Has anyone got a view on James VI? He had an 'interesting' life & was what might delicately be called 'an admirer' of the Duke of Buckingham. It was said a passage connected their two bed chambers. Charles I has the look of James VI, but were the paintings accurate? This isn't meant to be a scurrilous tabloid newspaper-style question, but merely wondering if the Y-DNA from Charles WAS via James VI.Cheers,Bob

Fair point regarding the uncertainty, culturally speaking they were as Irish as bacon and cabbage, so the post 1921 leadership onwards, within that context, could be rightly considered Gaels. Which I hope does not misrepresent what Stoneman was saying. Of course in terms of Haplogroup and YDNA lineage Eire (if you buy into associating SNPs to an ethnology) could well have been ruled since that time by Mongolians, Spanish, or Morroccan. Am sure they would not have allowed the IMF/EU to screw Ireland ;)

Throughout his youth, James was praised for his chastity, since he showed little interest in women; after the loss of Lennox, he continued to prefer male company. A suitable marriage, however, was necessary to reinforce his monarchy, and the choice fell on the fourteen-year-old Anne of Denmark... By all accounts, James was at first infatuated with Anne, and in the early years of their marriage seems always to have showed her patience and affection. The royal couple produced three surviving children...

Mike, as you may know post 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty, the majority of Ireland and its people regained their rightful sovereignty, thus in a sense the Gaels restored their leadership.

Right, but I thought Stoneman was talking about Gaelic royalty. I think Ireland was fairly well fractured prior to the Normans, right? Could it ever be pinned down to there being the High King of Ireland? I don't know. Perhaps O'Connor or Nial?

The Cambro-Normans consolidated control over large parts of Ireland for a period. In that sense, Normans were the royalty of large parts of Ireland during this period. We know that Cromwell pretty wiped all of that out, but can we really say there was Gaelic royalty that any real control over most of Ireland from 1069 AD on?

Mike, as you may know post 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty, the majority of Ireland and its people regained their rightful sovereignty, thus in a sense the Gaels restored their leadership.

Right, but I thought Stoneman was talking about Gaelic royalty. I think Ireland was fairly well fractured prior to the Normans, right? Could it ever be pinned down to there being the High King of Ireland? I don't know. Perhaps O'Connor or Nial?

The Cambro-Normans consolidated control over large parts of Ireland for a period. In that sense, Normans were the royalty of large parts of Ireland during this period. We know that Cromwell pretty wiped all of that out, but can we really say there was Gaelic royalty that any real control over most of Ireland from 1069 AD on?

Most of Ireland was reconqueored by Gaelic lords during the 14th and 15th century. Areas that didn't get reconquered ended up under Gaelicized Cambro-Norman control. The actual "Lordship of Ireland" (title held by British crown before Henry VIII declared himself King of Ireland) was restricted to just the Pale -- thence the expression "beyond the pale"

In the period between 1014 and 1169 Ireland was in the process of centralising and colasesing around strong regional kings who were vieing with each other for High-kingship (often described as "High-King with opposition"). If Diarmaid mac Murchadha hadn't invited the Normans in to regain Leinster (Laighin) more then likely the process would have contiuned.

Instead you end up with considerably more fractualed situation as "divide and conquer" is often an easier way to about a conquest. For example the Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor's) of Connacht eventually fractured into three independent lordships in the 14th/15th centuries. In the main line you had the "Ó Conchobhair Donn" (O'Connor Don -- Donn = Brown) and the "Ó Conchobhair Rua" (O'Connor Roe -- Rua = Red), these were pulled into wider Burke civil war, with one been supported by the "Mac William Íochtar" (Lower Mac William -- Mayo) and the other by Clanricarde (Mac William Uachta -- Upper Mac William -- Galway). The Burkes obviously originally been the Norman De Burgo family who invaded Connacht in the mid 13th century and who underwent a civil war during the 1330's (Clanwilliam of Limerick were third De Burgo grouping also involved). These Burkes became ultra-gael in behaviour, though they always regarded themselves as Gall due to male line ancestry.

The last highking of Ireland before the Norman invasion was Ruaidhrí Ua Conchobhair (Ruadhrí = Ruairí / Rory is anglisced version). However the current O'Connor Don doesn't descended directly from him but form his younger brother Cathal Crobhdearg (Cathal of the redhand -- probably a winestain birthmark). Their father was Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair who was HighKing form 1120-1156. He had at least 22 sons by 6 wives.

I should add there are at least two other men who are considered High King after Ruaidhrí these been:

Brian Ua Néill declared High King, killed at battle of Druim Dearg (battle of Down) in 1260 against the Normans.Edward Bruce (Brother of Robert of Scotland), leader of Bruce invasion of Ireland, killed at the Battle of Faughart in 1318.

Many would consider Aodh Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill) the leader of the Irish side in the Nine year war as the last man who could be called Highking. He died in Rome in 1616.

Mike, as you may know post 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty, the majority of Ireland and its people regained their rightful sovereignty, thus in a sense the Gaels restored their leadership.

Right, but I thought Stoneman was talking about Gaelic royalty. I think Ireland was fairly well fractured prior to the Normans, right? Could it ever be pinned down to there being the High King of Ireland? I don't know. Perhaps O'Connor or Nial?

The Cambro-Normans consolidated control over large parts of Ireland for a period. In that sense, Normans were the royalty of large parts of Ireland during this period. We know that Cromwell pretty wiped all of that out, but can we really say there was Gaelic royalty that any real control over most of Ireland from 1069 AD on?

Instead you end up with considerably more fractualed situation as "divide and conquer" is often an easier way to about a conquest. For example the Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor's) of Connacht eventually fractured into three independent lordships in the 14th/15th centuries. In the main line you had the "Ó Conchobhair Donn" (O'Connor Don -- Donn = Brown) and the "Ó Conchobhair Rua" (O'Connor Roe -- Rua = Red), these were pulled into wider Burke civil war, with one been supported by the "Mac William Íochtar" (Lower Mac William -- Mayo) and the other by Clanricarde (Mac William Uachta -- Upper Mac William -- Galway). The Burkes obviously originally been the Norman De Burgo family who invaded Connacht in the mid 13th century and who underwent a civil war during the 1330's (Clanwilliam of Limerick were third De Burgo grouping also involved). These Burkes became ultra-gael in behaviour, though they always regarded themselves as Gall due to male line ancestry.

& they all except for the clanRickard Burkes ended up by 1500 as subjects of the O’Donnells of Tyrconnel.

I should add there are at least two other men who are considered High King after Ruaidhrí these been:

Brian Ua Néill declared High King, killed at battle of Druim Dearg (battle of Down) in 1260 against the Normans.Edward Bruce (Brother of Robert of Scotland), leader of Bruce invasion of Ireland, killed at the Battle of Faughart in 1318.

Many would consider Aodh Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill) the leader of the Irish side in the Nine year war as the last man who could be called Highking. He died in Rome in 1616.

Any male descendants of the 2n Earl of Tyrone? If I remember, a Portuguese is the O’Neill. Be interesting to see if it woul be O'Neill Y or if Kelly the blacksmith may’ve really been his pappy.

But even if O’Neill wasn’t a bastard his ally O’Donnell certainly was a SOB ;)(Ineen Dubh McDonnell)

Seriously, Hugh O'Neill was accused of being a bastard, furthermore if you look at the paper about O’Neill Y above, it’s largest cluster doesn't matc w the other Niall groups & their related kin. not even w the McLauglins who were their closest relatives & rivals for clan Owen over kings. It’s very likely early on some O’Neill was not paternally an O’Neill.

Well there are a group of fundamentalist Christians in the US that believe you can only be saved by reading the Bible, and in particular only the King James version of it. Referring to James I/VI ‘preference’ or referring to him as Queen James is a tried & true way to rid yourself of their company quickly.

I thought the Normans with Richard Strongbow, Chief Justicar of Ireland, ended Gaelic control there ???

In parts of Ireland by the end of the 1200’s but Strongbow was long gone by the time the FitzGeralds established control over parts of N Munster after playing one side against the other in the McCarthy civil war. In other places they & their Irish allies were defeated.

The Cambro-Normans consolidated control over large parts of Ireland for a period. In that sense, Normans were the royalty of large parts of Ireland during this period. We know that Cromwell pretty wiped all of that out, but can we really say there was Gaelic royalty that any real control over most of Ireland from 1069 AD on?

Norman lords in Ireland (& in Wales) were given palatine powers to rule (like the Gaelic rulers) as mini kings in their domains. After 1169 O’Connor was still king but a vassal to henri plantagenet

Instead you end up with considerably more fractualed situation as "divide and conquer" is often an easier way to about a conquest. For example the Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor's) of Connacht eventually fractured into three independent lordships in the 14th/15th centuries. In the main line you had the "Ó Conchobhair Donn" (O'Connor Don -- Donn = Brown) and the "Ó Conchobhair Rua" (O'Connor Roe -- Rua = Red), these were pulled into wider Burke civil war, with one been supported by the "Mac William Íochtar" (Lower Mac William -- Mayo) and the other by Clanricarde (Mac William Uachta -- Upper Mac William -- Galway). The Burkes obviously originally been the Norman De Burgo family who invaded Connacht in the mid 13th century and who underwent a civil war during the 1330's (Clanwilliam of Limerick were third De Burgo grouping also involved). These Burkes became ultra-gael in behaviour, though they always regarded themselves as Gall due to male line ancestry.

& they all except for the clanRickard Burkes ended up by 1500 as subjects of the O’Donnells of Tyrconnel.

I should add there are at least two other men who are considered High King after Ruaidhrí these been:

Brian Ua Néill declared High King, killed at battle of Druim Dearg (battle of Down) in 1260 against the Normans.Edward Bruce (Brother of Robert of Scotland), leader of Bruce invasion of Ireland, killed at the Battle of Faughart in 1318.

Many would consider Aodh Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill) the leader of the Irish side in the Nine year war as the last man who could be called Highking. He died in Rome in 1616.

Any male descendants of the 2n Earl of Tyrone? If I remember, a Portuguese is the O’Neill. Be interesting to see if it woul be O'Neill Y or if Kelly the blacksmith may’ve really been his pappy.

But even if O’Neill wasn’t a bastard his ally O’Donnell certainly was a SOB ;)(Ineen Dubh McDonnell)

Well the O'Donnells liked to do power projection into Connacht, in general though it was mostly up around Sligo. It was very much back and forth. Of course there is a reason also why many of the lordships in Connacht fought on english side during the nine year war. That and it was a play to keep land. For example the Mayo Burkes played it very well. Tiobóid na Long Bourke (Theobald of the boats) the son of Granuaile (priate queen of folklore) became Viscount Mayo for his loyal service (his mother guided his policy). His descendants today still hold title been the Earl of Mayo (nearly 400 years later)

There are no known male line descendants of Aodh Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill), as you mention there is some debate regarding the parternity of his father. One feature of medieval Gaelic society is that women could declare that their son was the son of another man (disown their husband etc.). The most famous example happened in 16th century.

Conn Bacach Ó Néill (Bacach = lame) the last King of Tír Eóghain (Cenél nEoghain) was one of the first Irish nobles to proceed with "Surrender and regrant" (new policy of Henry VIII). In which he surrended his Irish title (King of Tír Eóghain) acknowledge Henry VIII as his King (newly minted title of King of Ireland) and was "regranted" the title of Earl of Tyrone.

Anyways Conn oldest son Phelim Caoch Ó Néill (Caoch = blind eg. bad sight) was killed on a raid against the Mac Domhnaill's (McDonalds of the glens). The obvious heir was Seán (pronunced Shane in Ulster), however a woman who was married to the smith of Dundalk (Surname Kelly) had declared that her son (Matthew) was actually the son of Conn. Conn had never been know not to accept such a declared son (he had lots -- good way to get extra swordsmen!). However Matthew (or "Fear Dorcha" -- (Darkman) as he is called in Irish) was older then Seán, as a result the english had that he was thus the successor and Matthew was installed as Baron Dungannon. Either way Seán was a legimate son whereas Matthew if he was really Conn son was illegmiate.

Seán was having none of this, after all the reason he was called Seán an Diomas (Shane the Proud). Matthew was subsequently murdered, Conn died the following year and Seán became the new Ó Néill. However he didn't get the Earldom. Seán was undoubtely basically "uncrowned king" of Ulster at the peak of his power. Of course he met his end eventually when he was murdered by the McDonalds while their guest. His head been sent to Dublin and onward to London.

Anyways Matthew son was Aodh (Hugh) who had been raised in the Pale and in general english mannor. He subsequently became Earl of Tyrone and Ó Néill. He tried hunting down the sons of Sean (MacShanes -- Johnstons later) and did manage to kill several of them. Of course that is why many of them fought on the english side during the Nine Year war.

There are a number of MacShanes/Johnstons who appear to have the "O'Neill Variant" haplotype. Though wether these are sons of Seán, or are a seperate McShane branch (from the 15th century -- another Seán Ó Néill) is a matter of debate.

The issue about the O'Neill's not been M222 (mainline) is tied to the fact that the Ó Néill family lost the control of the Kingship of Aileach in the 11th century, it was over 150 years before another Ó Néill regained the kingship from the Mac Lochlainn's. By which time there powerbase had shifted to East Tyrone. I reckon this is when an NPE occurred as most of the Ó Néill's mainline had been killed when the Mac Lochlainn's came to power.

Well the O'Donnells liked to do power projection into Connacht, in general though it was mostly up around Sligo. It was very much back and forth.

[/quote ]

IIRC by 1500 O'Donnell rule was over most of Connaugt. MacWilliams of Mayo were definitely subject to Red Hugh O'Donnell's rule at that point. It’s interesting to see a Norman family fall prey to divisiveness like the many Gaelic families.

Of course there is a reason also why many of the lordships in Connacht fought on english side during the nine year war. That and it was a play to keep land. For example the Mayo Burkes played it very well. Tiobóid na Long Bourke (Theobald of the boats) the son of Granuaile (priate queen of folklore) became Viscount Mayo for his loyal service (his mother guided his policy). His descendants today still hold title been the Earl of Mayo (nearly 400 years later)

Land was also a reason so many later became protestant.

Some of my relatives bought the Mayos' land in Kill, Kilare some time back in the 20’s, apparently big on horses.

There are no known male line descendants of Aodh Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill), as you mention there is some debate regarding the parternity of his father. One feature of medieval Gaelic society is that women could declare that their son was the son of another man (disown their husband etc.). The most famous example happened in 16th century.

Conn Bacach Ó Néill (Bacach = lame) the last King of Tír Eóghain (Cenél nEoghain) was one of the first Irish nobles to proceed with "Surrender and regrant" (new policy of Henry VIII). In which he surrended his Irish title (King of Tír Eóghain) acknowledge Henry VIII as his King (newly minted title of King of Ireland) and was "regranted" the title of Earl of Tyrone.

Conn, one of the first Ulster protestants along w Manus O’Donnell, who never became Earl of Tyrconnel in spite of paying homage to the soon to be king of Ireland.

Anyways Matthew son was Aodh (Hugh) who had been raised in the Pale and in general english mannor. He subsequently became Earl of Tyrone and Ó Néill. He tried hunting down the sons of Sean (MacShanes -- Johnstons later) and did manage to kill several of them. Of course that is why many of them fought on the english side during the Nine Year war.

There are a number of MacShanes/Johnstons who appear to have the "O'Neill Variant" haplotype. Though wether these are sons of Seán, or are a seperate McShane branch (from the 15th century -- another Seán Ó Néill) is a matter of debate.

The issue about the O'Neill's not been M222 (mainline) is tied to the fact that the Ó Néill family lost the control of the Kingship of Aileach in the 11th century, it was over 150 years before another Ó Néill regained the kingship from the Mac Lochlainn's. By which time there powerbase had shifted to East Tyrone. I reckon this is when an NPE occurred as most of the Ó Néill's mainline had been killed when the Mac Lochlainn's came to power.

-PaulDF41+

Or if you take some of John McLaughlin’s old conspiracy theories seriously they were simply a branch of the McLaughlin’s because they were out of the kingship for so long before allying w the upstarts of cenel conaill & obliterating the mcLauglin derbfine in 1241.

Again I wouldn't call it rule, no doubt alot of the the Connacht lords were paying "Sláinte" to the Ó Domhnaill's one way to tihnk of the practise of "Sláinte" it's like paying protection money to the mob.

Well given the MacLochlainn's show up as M222+ it's unlikely that the later Ó Néill "princely line" are derived form them. After the death of Flaithbherthach Ó Néill (Flaithbertach Ua Néill = middle irish form) in 1036 the Ó Néill family were excluded from the kingship of Aileach (The kingship of Northern Uí Néill) for over seven generations. The next Ó Néill to hold the kingship was his 8th generation descendant until Aodh mac Muircheartaigh "an Macaoimh Tóinleasg" Ó Néill (Áed mac Muirchertaig "in Macáem Tóinlesc" Ua Néill = middle Irish) -- an macaoimh tóinleasg basically means the "lazy-arsed youth" hah -- was given the kingship by Ruadhrí Ua Conchobhair when he divided the Kingdom of Aileach between Aodh and the MacLochlainn's in the 1160's. It's quite a tight generation squeeze between the two men that's for sure.

There is also the fact that Aodh had been fostered by the Uí Thuirtre of East Tyrone (Airghialla grouping). The fact that Ua Cearbhaill king of Airghialla helped in his fighting against the MacLochlainn makes me wonder if was during this period the NPE came, and was due to grouping to the East. Tír nEoghain after all had been over the previous 2-300 years expanding South-eastwards at the expense of the Airghialla. The fact that after the Ó Néill come back out of the shadows are based in that area is somewhat suspiscous. That and they basically abandoned the tradition home of the Cinéal nEoghain eg. The penisula of Inis Eoghain (island of Eoghan) which was subsequently conquered by the Ó Dochartaigh (O'Doherty) of Cineal Chonaill.

It's kinda unexplainable why they would let the original territority be taken over, apart form part that it was actual MacLochlainn stronghold before the annihilation of their main line. After all Eóghan mac Néill the father of their kindred and son of Niall (of the Nine Hostages) is after all buried in Inis Eoghain (Inishowen) supposedly.

After the death of Flaithbherthach Ó Néill (Flaithbertach Ua Néill = middle irish form) in 1036 the Ó Néill family were excluded from the kingship of Aileach (The kingship of Northern Uí Néill) for over seven generations. The next Ó Néill to hold the kingship was his 8th generation descendant until Aodh mac Muircheartaigh "an Macaoimh Tóinleasg" Ó Néill (Áed mac Muirchertaig "in Macáem Tóinlesc" Ua Néill = middle Irish) -- an macaoimh tóinleasg basically means the "lazy-arsed youth" hah -- was given the kingship by Ruadhrí Ua Conchobhair when he divided the Kingdom of Aileach between Aodh and the MacLochlainn's in the 1160's. It's quite a tight generation squeeze between the two men that's for sure.

There is also the fact that Aodh had been fostered by the Uí Thuirtre of East Tyrone (Airghialla grouping). The fact that Ua Cearbhaill king of Airghialla helped in his fighting against the MacLochlainn makes me wonder if was during this period the NPE came, and was due to grouping to the East. Tír nEoghain after all had been over the previous 2-300 years expanding South-eastwards at the expense of the Airghialla. The fact that after the Ó Néill come back out of the shadows are based in that area is somewhat suspiscous. That and they basically abandoned the tradition home of the Cinéal nEoghain eg. The penisula of Inis Eoghain (island of Eoghan) which was subsequently conquered by the Ó Dochartaigh (O'Doherty) of Cineal Chonaill.

It's kinda unexplainable why they would let the original territority be taken over, apart form part that it was actual MacLochlainn stronghold before the annihilation of their main line. After all Eóghan mac Néill the father of their kindred and son of Niall (of the Nine Hostages) is after all buried in Inis Eoghain (Inishowen) supposedly.

I believe there was speculation it was part of a deal cut w the O’Donnells for their assistance in annihilating the McLaughlins. O’Neill may’ve felt it was worth losing the peninsula in return for regaining the leadership of the cenel Eogan. At least in a later boundary dispute between the two septs over (IIRC) the strategic Mag Itha area, O’Donnell was able to produce some documents giving him claim to the territory signed by O’Neill’s ancestor. So it’s possible Inisowen was part of a payoff.