Perpetual Diablo 3 Thread - Patch 2.0.1 Now Live

Athene figures out that if you stack 4 monks with the right abilities and rotate cooldowns, you can basically make your party immune to all damage.

Well, until Bliz hotfixes the class mid run for Inferno first to reduce the active time for the cooldowns, leaving them with 4 toons that can't do the content due to the fact that they were taking advantage of the immunity to stack DPS and only DPS (amongst other issues related to proper class stacking/splits for the content). So, he's out of the race.

Welcome to the start of every WoW expansion for the last 7 years. You'd think the guy would stop trying to shortcut.

I can't speak for the other classes, but as a WD I haven't had much trouble at all surviving, and I haven't used the AH at all yet. I think a lot of the people who seemed surprised at the difficulty on normal had probably done AH buying, and maybe that made it a little too easy or something.

Definitely not a factor yet- the game is already too easy without buying anything on the AH as far as any of my characters have gotten.

It's a question of balancing things like rate of wealth acquisition, rate of campaign progression, the pleasure of making my character as badass as possible, and the pleasure of finding or crafting something that upgrades me. Ultimately, I'm not optimizing for any of these things individually; I'm optimizing for fun, and all of these things will impact how fun the game is for me. The question is if using the AH before I hit a difficulty wall will enhance or reduce my enjoyment of the game- and if I can resist using it if the latter is the case. Jury's still out on both counts.

Based on the number of people maxing out the friends list from Ars, I'm going to go ahead and say this game needs some sort of "guild" mechanic. Something for us to add everyone all at once, and keep a distinction between known from a credible source vs. grew up with them.

So he's mad that they hotfixed an obviously broken mechanic and gave up? Or is he out of the race for another reason?

Apparently you want a "tank" melee, for lack of a better term, and then some ranged dps for 4M Inferno. Additionally, if you stack DPS stats (Int, STR, etc), to the exclusion of Vitality, you'll find yourself relatively squishy in comparison to early play. They'd basically have to reroll 4 toons and regear to make up for 3 days of lost gearing/leveling.

So, a little of column a, a little of column b. Still, at this point I think his entire internet shtick is being: "The guy who gimick's his way to first and gets nerf'd/banned" so I honestly don't think he really cares about not being first; he's already won.

So he's mad that they hotfixed an obviously broken mechanic and gave up? Or is he out of the race for another reason?

The whole point was that they were going for world first clearing everything on Inferno difficulty. Since their very very specific setup was nerfed, they'd have to get new characters for a better 4 character team, and there's just no way they could beat other teams that they were competing with.

So he's mad that they hotfixed an obviously broken mechanic and gave up? Or is he out of the race for another reason?

You mean the practical reason that the characters were built and equipped a certain way and levelled as a team and that not being able to operate as planned leaves them in a suboptimal situation for continuing on?

No, I mean that they put together a group that iseffectively invincible, which is basically an exploit that would need to be hotfixed. Anyone that thinks it shouldn't and wouldn't be is fooling themselves.

No, I beat Act I last night, and it seems to be at most 75% as long as D2 Act I, if not shorter.

I felt it was much longer. Then again, the areas are far more open and there's a lot of back and forth, whereas it's a fairly linear progression in D2. Oh yeah, and I have 10 years expertise telling me exactly what I should spend time on (Den of Evil) and what I should skip (pretty much every other cave). We'll see how it holds up after I make it to Hell or Inferno difficulty and start up a second character. I bet it will be much faster.

Actually there are achievements and bonus objectives associated with some of the skippable sub-dungeons and what not (journals, mini-quests, etc.), whereas the random caves in D2 pretty much had nothing of interest.

Reading up on everyone's damage, I'm suddenly feeling extremely weak. My lvl 26 Monk only has 150dps. And I've been constantly upgrading my gear with new items whenever I've found something good too.

Stack DEX bonuses on items, since I believe that's the Monk's damage bonus stat. Attack speed as well. I'm a level or two behind you having just finished Act II and my Demon Hunter has over twice your DPS with a one-handed crossbow and a quiver.

That's the thing. Almost every piece of my items has at least +20 dex on it. I don't know if it's because my weapons are too low lvl or what, but I feel like I'm missing something.

But I do tend to just mow through enemies right now, so I'm not too worried about it.

My level 33 Monk has about 400ish DPS, and I remember mine being much higher at that level. Don't just focus on stacking dex, focus on increasing damage. I won't upgrade a piece of equipment unless it says it will increase damage. Also hit up the AH. You can double the base DPS on a weapon pretty cheaply.

Still, at this point I think his entire internet shtick is being: "The guy who gimick's his way to first and gets nerf'd/banned" so I honestly don't think he really cares about not being first; he's already won.

No, I mean that they put together a group that iseffectively invincible, which is basically an exploit that would need to be hotfixed. Anyone that thinks it shouldn't and wouldn't be is fooling themselves.

I don't disagree that is is something that needed to be fixed. However your use of the term exploit requires the weak understanding of the term--its not like they found a way to bypass content or was not based on using powers as devlivered and intended.

I can see arguments for Blizzard ignoring them until the first was achieved and I can see arguments against it.

Blizzard put immunity in the game. Is it an exploit that players then build upon the rock that Blizzard provided?

Holy hell. It is so much more satisfying to run into a pack, soul harvest 5 stacks, then EXPLODING FROGS EVERYWHERE. Especially since he does the insane yell with every toss.

No shit. I've considered putting the flaming bats on my 3 key for things I need more precision to hit, however, because they do a ton of damage (and eat a ton of mana).

And I'm | | this far from starting to yell along with my WD... >_>

Nekojin wrote:

Tuesday: installed new CPU. BIOS hates new CPU, Neko goes to bed without a computer.

Wednesday: Pick up new mobo/cpu combo from Newegg, get home to find out that my old memory is DDR 2, and this mobo requires DDR 3. Neko goes to bed without a computer.

And, meanwhile, Andara is playing D3 with her new video card.

As an aside, however, D3 seems to dislike task switching if you play in fullscreen mode. However, if you play in windowed fullscreen mode, it gives the same experience as fullscreen, but doesn't crash out if you decide to task switch.

WhiteGoblin wrote:

Don't really care to do all that but want to see it in game? Just shoot me a PM (WhiteGoblin#1211) while you're playing sometime, we can get a group together and go roll through there with my Staff. It would help greatly if you were around lv.25-30 before going though...

I am sooo going to toss you a tell requesting a run-through once I get a few more levels under my belt.

So far, enjoyable, but Im completely baffled by why the hell I need to be online to play this sodding ame.

It's not a freaking single-player game and I'm really getting irritated by all of the whiners people trying to claim that it is.

Diablo 3 is a multi-player online game that is designed to be solo-friendly.

Read it out loud if it'll help it sink in.

Crombie wrote:

If I had known the game would require always on internet, then I likely would not have gone with the annual pass, and I would have bought the game when they patched out the required connection and just let me play the damned thing 'solo'. I had considered playing some MP, but I honestly had no idea that the entire premise of this game is MP.

First off, it's always been public info that it would be an internet-based game, so if you didn't know that, then you didn't do your homework. Why the hell would you shell out that much money without performing at least minimal due diligence? Also, there will not be a patch for offline play. Ever. It's online-only so that there can be little to no fraud performed as regards the real-money auction house.

ronelson wrote:

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Why are you pugging when there's a 100 person ars tag list in the initial post of this thread?

Is there a way to update your friends list without being in the game? Alt-tabbing and clicking back and forth is a huge part of why I haven't added anyone other than my wife so far.

I wrote down a handful of people I knew that I knew to be added in. I'll need to go back and add in more as time goes on, or let them do the work for add me.

I do have one minor annoyance with regards to key binding. I have set up all of my abilities to be able to run from the mouse but while levelling I can't pick the button to put the ability on to until I hit a high enough level to unlock that particular slot. Not really much of an issue, and I rebound in 1-4 just to have something non-annoying to use an ability from, but it would be nice in elective mode to open up a slot and be able to place that slot on whatever button I want.

Blizzard put immunity in the game. Is it an exploit that players then build upon the rock that Blizzard provided?

That's a debate as old as games and exploits. I don't know if this thread needs another discussion like that.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying about my used of the word "exploit". Just because it required more thought and a group of 4 doesn't mean it was working as intended. I don't know Blizzard all that well, but I have a feeling they didn't want Inferno to only be completed by a group if monks, or even forthat to be the most effective group.

Don't just focus on stacking dex, focus on increasing damage. I won't upgrade a piece of equipment unless it says it will increase damage. Also hit up the AH. You can double the base DPS on a weapon pretty cheaply.

I find it non-intuitive that holding a sharper dagger in my hand rather than a magical stick with a knob on the end will increase the damage of a flurry of magical missles I shoot from somewhere unknown but is definitely my rear. Although I accept that being more intelligent should make them hurt more.

Blizzard put immunity in the game. Is it an exploit that players then build upon the rock that Blizzard provided?

That's a debate as old as games and exploits. I don't know if this thread needs another discussion like that.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying about my used of the word "exploit". Just because it required more thought and a group of 4 doesn't mean it was working as intended. I don't know Blizzard all that well, but I have a feeling they didn't want Inferno to only be completed by a group if monks, or even forthat to be the most effective group.

Exploit used to mean making use of a flaw in the code to do things which you were not supposed to be able to do. It has been stretched by some to now cover using your brain and doing things with the tools you were provided which the toolmaker did not think of. The former application leaves only the consideration that you've cheated. The latter application carries the atmosphere of cheating by its previous use though all that's occurred was creative use of the framework that was provided, turning creativity into something bad.

In this case the players did not do something bad. They did not utilize a flaw. They did not utilize an oversight. They did what we all do--try within the framework we are given to make powerful characters. They simply figured out something nobody else did. As I noted, Blizzard needed to do something about it. How and when they did so is an arguable point (that I think we've decided not to pursue). Calling it an exploit, as I noted, relies on the expanded, somewhat removed from original meaning understanding of the word exploit.

Just started NM with my Demon Hunter. So far, my fave skill combo for clearing out the hordes is Elemental Arrow (Ball Lightning Rune) with Companion (Bat Rune). Have had a 95-kill Mighty Blow pop up with this one. I'm keeping Hungering Arrow and Bola shot on the mouse, and usually have stun-runed Impale somewhere on my keys.

I get the distinction that's being discussed, but IMHO the whole discussion of if it is an "exploit" or not is kind of boring and more pedantic than not.

As far as I'm concerned, in this specific instance it was OK both for the players to do what they did and OK for Blizzard to fix the broken game mechanics in question even if it does negatively impact the players.

Well by your own definition an exploit, flaw in the code, is something the coder did not think of. The flaw in the math of abilities and stats caused this monk exploit. Is it really any different?

The coders and the designers were probably not the same people and correctness of code is one of those issues within the realm of programming where it is rare that you achieve perfection and there is no universally valid means of assuring it.

The very substantive difference between a using a flaw in the code and using provided tools is that the coder did not advertise, "Here is a flaw in my code, please use it." But the powers in the game were put before the players with an implicit message of, "These are here for you to use."

Discovering I can for a buffer overflow and build upon that to do something in the game that was no intended is different from noting, "Hey, power A when combined with power B would solve problem C in a lot easier fashion than people have been going about doing so."

I don't blame them for finding such a good system, but I don't think they or anyone else should be surprised it was fixed as soon as blizzard found out about it. Fixing it after they got first would just be a big fuck you to every player after the fact, and I know they have a lot of experience in that area, I doubt they would want to create that controversy if they could help it.

Well by your own definition an exploit, flaw in the code, is something the coder did not think of. The flaw in the math of abilities and stats caused this monk exploit. Is it really any different?

The coders and the designers were probably not the same people and correctness of code is one of those issues within the realm of programming where it is rare that you achieve perfection and there is no universally valid means of assuring it.

And how often is perfection in balanced abilities achieved? Aren't they still balancing and updating Diablo 2?

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The very substantive difference between a using a flaw in the code and using provided tools is that the coder did not advertise, "Here is a flaw in my code, please use it." But the powers in the game were put before the players with an implicit message of, "These are here for you to use."

Discovering I can for a buffer overflow and build upon that to do something in the game that was no intended is different from noting, "Hey, power A when combined with power B would solve problem C in a lot easier fashion than people have been going about doing so."

Fair enough, I suppose that corner of the level where you can wiggle through and get outside of the main world isn't exactly advertised, bust's not all that much different than using abilities to become invincible.

We're not talking about "a lot easier" are we? We're talking about immune to all damage. There's quite a difference.

i think its a bit silly. programmers make mistakes too, as do designers. they clearly didn't think of this when they were QA'ing it and I'd rather they patch this ASAP than let groups run this build and they'd have even more folks screaming after the inevitable nerf.

this discussion of exploit or not is silly as clearly it breaks game balance. reminds me of the days of SF2 when using guile meant that you could crash the system. i'm sure those arguing that since its in the game, its a valid trick, but the truth was in a tournament, if you did that, you'd first be kicked out of the tourney, then 2, taken outside the arcade to be curbstomped.

so its great that they got as far as they did, but they clearly were using a trick that the devs didn't intend, and so when they patched it out, there's no point in crying foul. they were just hoping to get away with it for as long as they could.

The Athene issue is probably one reason whey Blizzard chose to go with 4-player multiplayer rather than 8. I'm sure they tested the hell out of multiplayer combinations, and this 4 Monk combo still slipped through as an unbeatable strategy. It must get orders of magnitude more difficult to eliminate these perfect combinations as more team members are added.

It wouldn't be much fun to simply jack up the enemy HP and damage to absurd levels in order to cover groups that are immune to all damage; hacking away at a champion for half an hour with 7 people while taking no damage just wouldn't be an enjoyable experience.

I can see arguments for Blizzard ignoring them until the first was achieved and I can see arguments against it.

I have a hard time sympathizing with the argument that Blizzard should have let them finish before nerfing it, but then that might be colored by the fact that I see no meaning in a "first" which is based purely on finding the broken mechanic and using it before it gets fixed. Not that I think "firsts" have much meaning in general, but at least people who aren't abusing a broken mechanic have something to brag about.

I agree that calling it an exploit is debatable, but I have no problem with it being fixed out from under them.

Vault Dweller wrote:

Man, I think my DPS is very low for being a level 25 barbarian. I think mine is like 30? I'll check when I get home. I wish they had gotten around to making the web interface for character stats.

If it's actually 30 that's definitely low. You can probably get weapons that on their own are higher than 30, before taking into account your other stats.

In this case the players did not do something bad. They did not utilize a flaw. They did not utilize an oversight. They did what we all do--try within the framework we are given to make powerful characters. They simply figured out something nobody else did.

I hardly would call what they did a obscure trick, anyone playing a Monk and with a half a brain knew you could assemble a 4 Monk all star team and rotate cooldowns. It's not a hack or exploit, but it most certainly is a cheese (which Athene is notorious for).

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As I noted, Blizzard needed to do something about it. How and when they did so is an arguable point (that I think we've decided not to pursue). Calling it an exploit, as I noted, relies on the expanded, somewhat removed from original meaning understanding of the word exploit.

I think Blizz doing something about it before they finished Inferno was the proper thing to do. The build needed nerfing obviously, and better to do it now prior to someone winning the race with that tactic.

Let's be honest, going into Inferno with 5k HP and being able to ignore all damage is a seriously flaw that need fixing.

In the longterm, I hope they partially revert Serenity Strike and just nerf the group buffing utility more for Monks. I've been playing a tanky Monk build and I'm worried when I log in tonight, I'll be nerfed to shit. :/

Well by your own definition an exploit, flaw in the code, is something the coder did not think of. The flaw in the math of abilities and stats caused this monk exploit. Is it really any different?

The coders and the designers were probably not the same people and correctness of code is one of those issues within the realm of programming where it is rare that you achieve perfection and there is no universally valid means of assuring it.

And how often is perfection in balanced abilities achieved? Aren't they still balancing and updating Diablo 2?

Utterly beside the point. Exploit, as noted above, was considered utilizing flaws in the code. Period.

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The very substantive difference between a using a flaw in the code and using provided tools is that the coder did not advertise, "Here is a flaw in my code, please use it." But the powers in the game were put before the players with an implicit message of, "These are here for you to use."

Discovering I can for a buffer overflow and build upon that to do something in the game that was no intended is different from noting, "Hey, power A when combined with power B would solve problem C in a lot easier fashion than people have been going about doing so."

Fair enough, I suppose that corner of the level where you can wiggle through and get outside of the main world isn't exactly advertised, bust's not all that much different than using abilities to become invincible.

It is when invincibillity is put into the game. Honestly, it is not precisely rocket science to take consideration of the fact that you can turn yourself and your allies invulnerable for a period of time and then ask, "How many people do I need so that I can chain it across the cooldown period?"

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We're not talking about "a lot easier" are we? We're talking about immune to all damage. There's quite a difference.

We're talking about that power being put in the game. If you don't want people immune to damage, don't put a power in the game that makes them immune to damage.