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Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Now, if you are going to tell me that Pau was the best player on that Laker team, or that Tyson Chandler (or even Kidd at that point in his career) were the best players on that team, then you might want to go back and rewatch games from those seasons...

Pau and Chandler were both very key to those championships. In no way am I saying the best player on the team has to be a high pick. The fact is, if a team gets lucky and picks Kobe at 13...they may well have other talent to go with him and thus an advantage. But if the high pick is the stud, you have a chance to win every year (Duncan, MJ, Shaq, LeBron, etc.). Wonder how many rings those guys have...all picked very high. In fact, they just about have them all!

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Without Chandler in the middle, Dirk would still without be a ring. Chandler of course was picked #2. I agree on Kobe, but the rule still stands. In fact, I think it might require a top 3 or 4 pick...again as a KEY contributor.

Key contributor?? Your moving the goal posts to your argument my friend... Also, lets look at the 08 Celtics... No one inside of the 5th pick was on that roster... So that right there is in contrast to your above quote...

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Key contributor?? Your moving the goal posts to your argument my friend... Also, lets look at the 08 Celtics... No one inside of the 5th pick was on that roster... So that right there is in contrast to your above quote...

Dirk and Kobe would not have those rings without Chandler (especially) and Pau.

As for the '08 Celtics, you proved my original point. Both Ray Allen and Garnett were picked at #5.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

No, I think that you are also missing the point. It's not that you can't pick Tony Parker in the second round and have him be a superstar. It's that Tim Duncan was on that team too and he was picked #1. Find a single exception.

So what happens if you find a Duncan esque player at say #8, is it so that you can't win a title because they are not picked high enough?

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Pau and Chandler were both very key to those championships. In no way am I saying the best player on the team has to be a high pick. The fact is, if a team gets lucky and picks Kobe at 13...they may well have other talent to go with him and thus an advantage. But if the high pick is the stud, you have a chance to win every year (Duncan, MJ, Shaq, LeBron, etc.). Wonder how many rings those guys have...all picked very high. In fact, they just about have them all!

Thank you. At least someone here understands. Since 1980 there is not a single team that has won a title where one of the very best players was not picked in the top 5 of a draft. There is no precedent where a team with picks in the teens and #10 like the Pacers has ever won a title and honestly the Pacers' odds just got a lot longer this summer.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

In the playoffs, Pau was 2nd in scoring, only guy on the team with double figures on the boards, highest FG%, 2nd most assists. He had great games and without him Kobe would have been wondering how much he missed Shaq.

Without Chandler in the middle, Dirk would still without be a ring. Chandler of course was picked #2. I agree on Kobe, but the rule still stands. In fact, I think it might require a top 3 or 4 pick...again as a KEY contributor.

The Following User Says Thank You to bballpacen For This Useful Post:

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Don't the Spurs kinda break that trend though? Duncan didn't play like a top 5 pick in the draft, so does him getting drafted there have anything to do with how he contributed? I say no. They were lead by Tony Parker, a late 20's pick, and Kawhi Leonard, a 15th pick.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Don't the Spurs kinda break that trend though? Duncan didn't play like a top 5 pick in the draft, so does him getting drafted there have anything to do with how he contributed? I say no. They were lead by Tony Parker, a late 20's pick, and Kawhi Leonard, a 15th pick.

Without Tim Duncan, the Spurs would have 0 NBA championships. Don't fight it. It's just a fact.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

No, I think that you are also missing the point. It's not that you can't pick Tony Parker in the second round and have him be a superstar. It's that Tim Duncan was on that team too and he was picked #1. Find a single exception.

Why do I need to find an exception? You are the one who is asserting that "you need a top #3 pick in order to win a title". The burden of proof always lies on the accuser.

I only have one question to ask, my friend. Do you think that Paul George is a superstar?

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Without Tim Duncan, the Spurs would have 0 NBA championships. Don't fight it. It's just a fact.

Thats not my point, you said you need a top 5 pick to win a title, if the said top 5 pick doesn't play like one or have that role anymore due to age, why does it matter if that was where he was selected?

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Why do I need to find an exception? You are the one who is asserting that "you need a top #3 pick in order to win a title". The burden of proof always lies on the accuser.

I only have one question to ask, my friend. Do you think that Paul George is a superstar?

You don't need to find an exception. I hope the Pacers become that exception. I actually don't think Paul is a superstar. I think he was getting there quickly and had he not been injured he might be one this year. He was darn close last year until he played pretty bad during the second half of the season.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

History has clearly shown that if you want a ring, a key contributor on your team MUST have been a top 5 pick at some point in their career. I don't believe there is a single exception to that rule since 1980 or earlier. The Pacers do not have that and while you can wish for a championship all you want, you simply are not likely to get one without tanking or being incredibly fortunate in a trade. This is not LA or Miami Beach where stars decide to put down roots.

Here you go. I am done on this topic. Feel free to present an exception to the rule that has held longer than 30 years and possibly the entire history of the NBA.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Here you go. I am done on this topic. Feel free to present an exception to the rule that has held longer than 30 years and possibly the entire history of the NBA.

Im not saying that stat isn't true, im just saying why does the stat matter if the top 5 pick doesn't have the role of a typical top 5 pick? What does draft position have to do with anything if you aren't relied upon like you were earlier in your career? It just seems more like a coincidence than the fact to me.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

There it is. That's what I wanted to hear. Now this meaningless (with all due respect) "no, he was selected at #10 so it doesn't matter if he plays like a #1 pick" argument can be finally put to rest.

The issue really isn't that PG was picked at #10 instead of #3. The issue is that you simply don't think that PG is good enough to lead us to a title without having the assistance of another top 5 pick. Personally, I don't agree with this opinion but you have every right to believe that.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

Im not saying that stat isn't true, im just saying why does the stat matter if the top 5 pick doesn't have the role of a typical top 5 pick? What does draft position have to do with anything if you aren't relied upon like you were earlier in your career? It just seems more like a coincidence than the fact to me.

It might be a coincidence but I find it pretty interesting. I think a lot of times, there are enormously talented players like MJ, Shaq and LeBron collecting the rings...and that talent is noticed early. Also, I think if a team happens to have a high pick who is also a good player, they might be one of those destination cities that collect talent...like Boston, LA, Miami, etc. I believe these are the factors.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

There it is. That's what I wanted to hear. Now this meaningless (with all due respect) "no, he was selected at #10 so it doesn't matter if he plays like a #1 pick" argument can be finally put to rest.

The issue really isn't that PG was picked at #10 instead of #3. The issue is that you simply don't think that PG is good enough to lead us to a title without having the assistance of another top 5 pick. Personally, I don't agree with this opinion but you have every right to believe that.

No, that's not my opinion. I think Paul could be that man. If I were a betting man though I would say I doubt it happens. Too many destination cities load up with the talent. It's tough here in the midwest.

Edit: upon further review...I think you might be right. I have some doubts we can get enough help for him...and no I don't think he's at the very top of the food chain. So it will be tough. Even LeBron had problems without DWade.

...but if Paul were in a destination city that collects talent I think he'd have a shot to be "the" man there. As it stands, I don't think we throw enough money out there and we have no beaches...so the odds are long.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

If I may just comment, then duck quickly, I find the stat very interesting. Probably holds true as far back as th draft system we now use has been in effect. Earlier, when picks were made regionally, might have been different. Okay, fire away!

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

No, that's not my opinion. I think Paul could be that man. If I were a betting man though I would say I doubt it happens. Too many destination cities load up with the talent. It's tough here in the midwest.

Edit: upon further review...I think you might be right. I have some doubts we can get enough help for him...and no I don't think he's at the very top of the food chain. So it will be tough. Even LeBron had problems without DWade.

I understand what you're saying. The situation is always tough for small market teams. As I said earlier, I may disagree with you but you have every right to hold this opinion.

PS: Not that it matters since the argument is resolved but I got curious and I did some digging up. It turns out that an exception does exist after all. The 82-83 Philadelphia 76ers won the title without having a top 5 pick as a key contributor. Moses Malone was draft in the 3rd round of the '74 ABA Draft, Julius Erving was drafted #12, Mo Cheeks was drafted #36, Andrew Toney was drafted #8 and Marc Iavaroni was drafted #55. Bobby Jones did play more minutes than Iavaroni and he was indeed drafted #5 but he was used exclusively as a 6th man (he never started a single game) and he didn't average more than 10 PPG or 5 RPG. Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks were the leaders and key contributors of that team and none of them was drafted in the top 5.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

I understand what you're saying. The situation is always tough for small market teams. As I said earlier, I may disagree with you but you have every right to hold this opinion.

PS: Not that it matters since the argument is resolved but I got curious and I did some digging up. It turns out that an exception does exist after all. The 82-83 Philadelphia 76ers won the title without having a top 5 pick as a key contributor. Moses Malone was draft in the 3rd round of the '74 ABA Draft, Julius Erving was drafted #12, Mo Cheeks was drafted #36, Andrew Toney was drafted #8 and Marc Iavaroni was drafted #55. Bobby Jones did play more minutes than Iavaroni and he was indeed drafted #5 but he was used exclusively as a 6th man (he never started a single game) and he didn't average more than 10 PPG or 5 RPG. Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks were the leaders and key contributors of that team and none of them was drafted in the top 5.

Not that it matters, but actually Moses Malone was picked #5 in the ABA Dispersal Draft...into the NBA. Those are all ABA draft numbers you have.