Sunday, July 03, 2005

Missing Recon Team 2

A member of the missing recon team has been found by US forces. According to
the Washington
Post:

U.S. forces rescued a member of a U.S. special operations reconnaissance
team in the rugged mountains of northeastern Afghanistan Sunday, five days
after the team went missing amid hostile fire, according to a U.S. defense
official. The official said that the search continues for three other members
of the team still missing in Konar province near the border with Pakistan. All
four men are Navy SEALS, he said. ...

The Navy SEAL rescued in Konar was recovered by forces that have been
involved in a massive hunt since officials lost contact with the team Tuesday.
Shortly afterward a special operations helicopter sent to assist them crashed
near its intended landing site, killing all 16 service members on board.
Military officials say they believe the helicopter was shot down with a
rocket-propelled grenade. But little more was known about the search effort.
Defense officials were reluctant to provide details because due to concerns
about compromising the ongoing operation.

The ability of the SEAL to evade for five days in an area more than 7,000
feet high is testimony to his training, willpower, skill and courage. It also
suggests that the recon team was not wholly surrounded, that it was able to run,
in the hours when it called for extraction. The problem with a four man team, as
opposed to a larger unit, is that when a single member is wounded or otherwise
incapacitated, there aren't enough men to carry him along. He will have to be
left to his fate or defended in situ. But even if all we are that stage
unwounded, one or more men might stay behind to delay the pursuit while the
others set up another delaying position further up the trail, so that the
rearguard could leapfrog backward, one behind the other. There are indications
the pursuit took place in the hours shortly after sunset. Bloomberg
reported on June 28th.

U.S. planes and helicopters were searching the area in the darkness, Moore
said before midnight Kabul time. Gage and Moore had no details on how many
troops were on board, the time of the crash or whether it was caused by enemy
fire. An emergency beacon went off after the crash, guiding emergency
personnel to the vicinity, CNN reported.

A pursuit by night in broken terrain may have separated the team in the
uproar of battle. It is also creates the real possibility that the Taliban
pursuit didn't find the rest of the recon team especially if they were being
pasted by aerial gunfire. Still, it is certainly possible in those conditions
that the Taliban actually captured a US soldier. However, the statements from
the Taliban actually suggest that they don't have any prisoner at all. The Associated
Press reports:

A purported Taliban spokesman, Mullah Latif Hakimi, said Friday that
militants had captured one of the men and said he was a "high-ranking
American" caught in the same area where the helicopter went down. He
reiterated the claim Saturday in a telephone call with the Associated Press.
"The soldier is being held in Kunar. Taliban leaders will decide what to
do with him," Hakimi said. "He is being kept in a home. His health
is all right."

The bodies of all sixteen of the men aboard the MH-47 have been
recovered. So he can have no prisoners from the quick reaction force. The recon
team itself would be unlikely to have a "high ranking" naval officer
(they were SEALs) along. If there were a prisoner, Hakimi is probably in
only tenuous contact with the group holding him. And they are unlikely to have
told him 'we are holding him in a house in Kunar. His health is good'. Therefore
there is practically no useful information in Hakimi's statements to the
Associated Press.

U.S. military spokesman Col. James Yonts said the helicopter was fired on as it was approaching a landing zone while rushing reinforcements to a battle in an area known to harbor "terrorist organizations." It flew on, but crashed about a little over a mile away at dusk, he said.

"The aircraft was taking indirect fire and direct fire from elements on the ground," he said.

Coalition and Afghan troops "quickly moved into position around the crash to block any enemy movement toward or away from the site," a U.S. military statement said. Yonts said fighting was continuing Wednesday.---This was from a Thurs report, so may be obsolete.At least the bad guys won't be sticking their heads up much in the area right now.Prayers indeed.

So, the enemy knew about our rescue attempt even before we had completed it. Effectively we whetted the press' appetite for information at the expense of the rescue operations. Leaked, or freely given?

You all seem to know a lot about how these operations work--do you still suspect that it was a bin Laden snatch or kill operation, or, given the "ongoing battle" statement, just a continuance of an operation against Taliban outposts high in the mountains?

The problem is that informayion has emerged piecemeal,it is difficult to know whether events are contiguous or snapshots of different engagements.Perhaps it would be better if a fuller briefing was made to prevent further damaging speculation in the media.

It could easily have been a mission to pinpoint a high ranking Taleban or AlQ type, it could just as easily been a mission to locate a staging area for a whole slew of fighters. What it was doesn't really matter, now. What matters is that the Muj seem to be putting their forces into that area and so are we. Think Gettysburg, a place of no particular importance where an important fight happened just because that's where Bobby Lee and Meade met. Finding the remaining three SEALs is part of the mission now, the other part is killing those Gomers. Nice of them to gather in one place.

This cnn link has video of area (10,000ft) announcer says "military able to prevent enemy getting into or out of the area."Very steep, still quite a bit of snow.. Bodies recovered from Afghan crash site .(We're right, you're wrong mika, but thanks: I didn't know you can get video from cnn for free - didn't used to be that way, and I didn't want to pay Eason Jordan.)...reporter isn't even a giggly dumb blonde.

I hope we can do some more work on helo survivability. The enemy is getting up on the learning curve on taking them down..And, have contingency plans to have a Cobra or Apache gunship or two at least in the air with a stuffed transport helo - to draw fire away from the craft with 15-25 men inside it.

And maybe the military will look at risk and decide splitting a team up on two transports lowers risk of a large number of deaths from a lucky hit or enemy with improved anti-air weaponry/tactics...

It hurts a lot just as a member of the public, hearing 16 elite soldiers were taken out without a chance to engage the enemy. I can only imagine how their comrades feel...and close friends and family..It hurt too, when a little missile took out 22 Army troops or so in Iraq last year. Troops that were "done" and being transported out when they were hit.

If one of the dead had been female though, I hate to say, that is who the press would focus on.

Hewitt had a military guest on that said they have learned a lot about our tactics.Mentioned ways they have to communicate, cellphones, internet, and more, and that they are (barely) human, so they learn.Still think Military ought to spend some RD dollars on having outsiders like Rutan try to come up with solutions, but big orgs rarely do things like that.

Look, if the enemy can learn and adapt, so can we. I have no doubt that the enemy is able to be resourceful within his own means. However, let's not make them out to be some kind of super boogeymen. They are fallible; they can make mistakes. We have to learn more about the art of infiltration and ambush and then really jack them and take them down. The problem of operating in Muslim countries is that our people can't pass for Muslims, so we are going to have to intensify our efforts to vet, train, and deploy natives who can infiltrate, gather intel, and then set up traps. Sure, we can always deploy better transportation tactics and develop better transport technology to operate in extreme environments, but the technology route is always a long term proposition, due to the nature of the task, whereas adapting tactics and cultivating local forces can be brought on line much sooner than can a new kind of helo.

fred,You forget what "they" (esp British Press as I recall) said these supermen in turbans could do prior to our special forces taking down the Taliban in a few weeks.There would be no way it would not be planeloads of bodybags, and etc.(In fact, remember when they would show the flag draped caskets in the 130's OVER AND OVER AND etc?)...I miss a properly defeatist tone in your post, fred, and I am sorely disappointed.---I "feel" like there are some ways, due to the assymetry of the forces, that they get more mileage out of learning some pretty basic tricks than would otherwise be the case.But, as hugh's guest said, it's the way it's always been in war: We learn faster and better.

The enemy can get lucky every now and then, but luck is not a steady rail in a long fight. One of the things which utterly amazes me about the news cycle today is the fact that it plays upon the utter ignorance of most of the populace in matters of how wars are fought and won or lost. I don't worry at all about our forces being able to prevail, provided they are properly supported, led, and trained. I DO WORRY ABOUT THE FOREBEARANCE OF AN INCREASINGLY IGNORANT POPULACE. Lacking a balanced grasp of how wars are fought and what it takes to win, our citizenry seems increasingly susceptible to the blandishments of the easy, lazy interpretations of our hostile, leftist media.

You are making several false assumptions regarding the capabilities of our special forces and the equipment that they use. I will not point out which of your comments are off target since my nephew is one of the people doing what you say they cannot. At any rate, if given the choice, I would rather fight the Taliban/AQ and others than our special forces.

Seems like that should have been directed at me, but what do I know?I do know my respect for special forces has grown since the begining of work in Afghanistan....and I agree the press is seeminly about as hostile as they could be.(but they always surprise)

I doubt that Americans could infiltrate or pass for Japanese in WW2, either, and we seem to have been able to win that one rather handily any way.

There has never, in the history of the world, been a country nor a group of people better than America at learning and improvising.

"Necessity is the mother of invention" was *NOT* thought up to be applied towards a bunch of virgin-starved throw-back jihadists. No, they prefer memorable slogans such as, "the mother of all wars" ... which they then proceed to lose with equally memorable speed.

US aircraft blasted militant positions in eastern Afghanistan today as US forces searched for a sixth day for soldiers missing since just before a helicopter coming to their aid was shot down, police said.

In the east, US aircraft bombarded militant positions on a mountain between the Nangalam and Shorai areas of Kunar, the province where a small team of US soldiers has been missing since Tuesday, a senior Afghan police officer said.

At this point the "rescue" efforts, while valid as a rationale in its own right, are probably partially a cover story for continuing whatever mission the recon team was originally deployed for.

The efforts of the Australian SAS in operation Anaconda have a superficial resemblance to what may have happened in Konar. Phantoms of the Mountains The Australian SAS apparently specialize in spending extended periods behind enemy lines.

About a year ago, when I followed the talk at Stratfor a little more closely, they'd made numerous references to what they thought was the "endgame" of the GWOT: Pakistan. Or more precisely, liquidating Al Qaeda's command and control locations in Pakistan. Implicit in Stratfor's discussion was that OBL was in Pakistan. It was felt such a move would have to wait until after the US elections (Nov. 04) and then after the spring thaw in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

I've lately not been following news stories nearly as closely as I should, but it seems as if the pick-up of activity in Afghanistan is AQ/Taliban's way of attempting to seize the initiative before the US starts this process. I'm curious if any Belmonters have any thougts on the connection between this latest action and the apparent sudden ignition of activity around Afghanistan.

There's something vaguely odd to me about how all of this has been reported, something I'm unable to put my finger on. I find myself wondering just what kind of response the US is hoping to provoke with the information it has been leaking to the press.

Inspiring story about the Australian SAS! I think that story points out that the complete change of mindset that has to accompany the War on Terror hasn't 100% set in with the U.S. brass. Is that the Barry McAffrey/Wesley Clark-era Clinton-appointed brass? Or are the Republican-era appointees not 100% on board with Rummy's philosophy? Or is this on a much lower-level tactical command basis?

Great post james, and your reference to not keeping up made me wonder what Uncle Hugo had in store for all of us:"Mr Chavez's gift horse published: Monday | July 4, 2005 AFTER THREE brief ministerial meetings over the past year, several Caribbean countries, including Jamaica, have agreed with Venezuela to create PetroCaribe, a regional energy agency that intends to offer guaranteed access and prices for petroleum.

For countries like Jamaica, facing an oil import bill of over $1 billion per year, and rising rapidly with continuing increases in global crude prices, such an offer is not to be quickly dismissed.

However, Mr Patterson and his colleague leaders who have hastily signed the PetroCaribe agreement should be asking some questions. These include a fundamental one about President Chavez's plans for the new agency. By the president's own admission, PetroCaribe is a small part of a wider plan to create PetroAmerica - a holding company for all state-owned energy producers in Latin America and the Caribbean.

PetroCaribe and PetroAmerica are central to Mr. Chavez's plan for the Bolivarian Alternative Trade Pact that the Venezuelan leader sees as the counter to the proposed Free Trade Area of the Americas, which he considers to be a tool of the United States to control the Americas. The Bolivarian Alternative is a weapon in his ideological war with Washington.". Jamaica Gleaner .We suggest that while PetroCaribe may not be without merit, our hasty leaders should consider whether agreement for PetroCaribe, which implies support for the Bolivarian Alternative, means that Mr. Patterson and his colleagues agree with Mr. Chavez that the Free Trade Area of the Americas is dead?Sometimes it is wise to look a gift horse in the mouth.

"Still, since 9/11, Pakistan has apprehended and killed over 1,000 foreign activists of al-Qaeda and the Taliban from various parts of the world. Fleeing from Afghanistan they had sought shelter in Pakistan among the largest single largest refugee population anywhere in the world."

"Pakistani intelligence sources told DEBKAfile’s sources that, even after the Afghan refugees are gone, North Waziristan will be a tough proposition because it has provided al Qaeda and the Taliban with a stronger base than did South Waziristan. This base is supported by a large number of seminaries established there and around 70 percent of the local population."

July 4, 2005, 12:33 AM (GMT+02:00)Putin in surprise call for world cooperation to help US in Iraq

Russian president Vladimir Putin urged the world community to pool efforts with the US to promote stability in Iraq. Past disputes should not prevent future cooperation, said Putin while hosting German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and French president Jacques Chirac at Svetlogorsk outside Kaliningrad Sunday, July 3, a get-together of three leaders who opposed the 2003 Iraq war.

DEBKAfile’s political sources explain Putin’s surprise volte face. He is influenced by the solid progress made in the Amman conciliation talks with Sunni guerrilla leaders brokered by former Iraqi prime minister Iyad Allawi, first revealed by DEBKAfile. The Russian leader is throwing his support behind the US because he sees a real chance of a breakthrough. The kidnap of the Egyptian envoy in Baghdad July 3 is further indication of progress. Egypt is a lead player in the inter-Arab umbrella granted the peace effort. The abductors aim for sabotage by holding the diplomat to political ransom. He will be harmed unless Cairo desists from its support for the Amman initiative.

"The reason why we are doing it is we are sick and tired of seeing and hearing headlines by the mainstream media about our defeat in Iraq," Melanie Morgan, a talk radio host (search) for KSFO Radio in San Francisco and co-chair of Move America Forward, said.

Morgan said the media is "imposing a Vietnam template on this war."

"This is not Vietnam," she said. "War is war, and it's dangerous, and the killing is taking place all of the time. At the same time, where there is danger, there is success and there is a mainstream media that is determined to shut out that success."

In the long term, what will happen in the USA as these superbly trained - and experienced - people come back home to the ignorant and foolish elite now in charge of the media and education systems? One fellow who studies the strength of marriages has noted that the strongest indicator of an upcoming divorce is an attitude of contempt on the part of one of the partners.

Well, we know that the American elites have contempt for the heartland that produces these soldiers. They truly believe that the only person who will go to this war is a loser with nothing more interesting to do. What will happen when that feeling is returned, by people who have had their talents honed in this global war on terror? Like, for example, the team that tracked down Saddam Hussein - they were not college grads, they figured out how the Iraqi clan/tribe system works, and did the job. Like, for example, the fact that archaeologists and historians took no part in the Iraqi war, but sat back at home in their cushy universities, and chattered about a "pillage" of the Baghdad museums that in fact did not take place?

It has been noted, time and again, that American (and British and Australian) "elites" are NOT contributing their sons and daughters to the armed forces fighting this war. The long term results will be, I think, extremely "interesting," no??

Heather said,Well, we know that the American elites have contempt for the heartland that produces these soldiers.Black soldiers in WWII came back w/justified contempt for the wrongs remaining in our society.Some folks saw the truth in their complaints, and supported the cause(s).Vietnam vets came back, with similar insights, and were spit upon.They, (we) and the country suffered.The moral leaders of our country now will return to at least half of the blogosphere's and most of talk radio's support.The country, and we will benefit!Happy Birthday America!

The difference now is that many of those serving in the military are graduates,a lot are Officers and NCOs used to organisation and command.This is not a replay of Vietnam,those returning are the elite of the future.

Peter,You often enlighten us about that side of the pond.In Vietnam, contrary to popular conception, many were highly educated officers also.They were just all treated the same.Like dirt.I still wonder if some I knew are alive or dead.

DOUG SAID:"Black soldiers in WWII came back w/justified contempt for the wrongs remaining in our society."

Exactly what I have thought for a long time: it has always interested me that there was a rash of lynchings of American Blacks in the 1920s, after WWI - and I know that there were lots of African American men served in the US armed forces during that war. And subsequent to WWII, a lot of energy appears in the civil rights movement... it seems that experience as soldiers makes people "uppity."

If I were an American, I would want my children to join and serve the Armed forces.

Another thought - leaning on the National Guard has ensured that ground level support for the troops and the war on terror has held steady DESPITE the elites and the MSM. This strategy was developed because of the Vietnam experience.

Latest word I heard is that they still are receiving the rest of the team's radio beacons and that the beacons are moving. I would assume, or at least hope, for such ops they do not use the standard 243MHZ whoop-whoop ELT beacons and use something a little more covert, on a different frequncy. The 243 MHZ ones have been around for over 30 years and are as common as dirt - I have 4 or 5 of them around here myself. And after Desert Storm they came up with a emergency radio with built in GPS which is capable of relaying the GPS information digitally. Of course, now you can buy an FRS radio with that capability for about $50 or so.Anyway, keep going you SEAL guys out there!This is gonna make a great movie someday.

Good post, Heather. The contempt will be mutual, though, in that the "elites" felt contempt for the "stupid electorate" for daring to re-elect Bush in the face of their overt command to vote for Kerry. Somehow I think an Iraqi vet's contempt for -- oh, say, Ward Churchill will be more telling. It'll be interesting to see how they react to the recycled "baby killer" epithets that you just *know* are coming.

RE: Putin calling for the world's help in Iraq. The fact that it was some sort of advanced Russian missle-thingy that just shot down an American helicopter and killed 16 American soldiers in Afghanistan has absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Putin's sudden avid desire to be a helpful world player. I'm sure.

RE: 2nd American soldier who may or may not be being rescued -- Taliban issued a statement yesterday saying he had been captured and was in a private home and his health was OK. Afghan mayor-type issues a statement this morning saying that he is wounded, and is sheltering in a private home, while Afghan and American troops are trying to get to him to rescue him. The thought occurs to wonder just *who* does this private home belong to?!? And does every singe person in that part of the world know the directions on how to get there?

Doug, sir. I ain't no sir, sir. Especially compared to the guys who are the subject of W's posts.

Back in the day, Cold War and all, you could travel around the world freely. Even overland, if you wanted to. The "However" clause in the old '77 passport only includes four countries: Cuba, Cambodia, North Korea and Vietnam. All the rest were fair game, get on the bus, boat or train and go where you wanna go.

The disconnect between reality and the illusions of academia Congress, the Judiciary, and the left in general, perpetrated on society approach levels that seem almost as black and white as those perceived by black vets returning after WWII. (and Korea)

"Finally, a last word to those amongst us who would use this terrible and atrocious act to limit our civil rights, to limit our freedoms, to punish all Americans in the name of "added security". NO! Do not even think of going there. The anger of the American patriot is aroused. All Americans who cherish liberty and are willing to stand in any way to defend it and to maintain it are patriots. Such activities to infringe on liberty will be seen for the attempts to further the socialistic and Marxist agendas that they are. They will not be tolerated.

The answer clearly is to visit a horrible, lasting and just punishment and retribution on those who did this act and those who harbored or abetted them so they will NEVER consider doing this again ... and thereby preserve our liberties as our founders intended and is our unalienable right."

Dragons Fury Series,"It is a story of cultures and competing political systems where the Chinese and other belligerent nations develop surprising advances that they employ against the West. It is about suppositions, arrogance, and the fact that neither side is going to do what the other side expects, no matter how good the plan. It is a story of faith and the ultimate triumph of good over evil in the face of horrific obstacles and setbacks. From leaders in high offices of power, to soldiers and sailors from the involved nations, to housewives and their children, down to kids on the street, it is also the story of people - common and not so common - caught up in the titanic struggle.

The novel addresses key issues about current political and military practice, including how "Homeland Security" can be successfully employed, or how it could be abused. It sees the United States of America savaged by manipulating, committed and ruthless foreign leaders. That savaging ultimately produces the will and fortitude of another "greatest generation" in America."

Heather mostly gets it right. America’s upper classes, both by taking tax cuts – money out of the hands of our military – and limiting their involvement in the GWoT to occasional cheerleading charades, are the real problem here. The question is: can America defeat the terrorists while burdened by such a huge leisure class of do-nothings, living opulent lives in gated McMansions, while leaching the economic life blood out of our nation? Has history ever seen such a parasitical class of avaricious narcissists leading such a powerful nation? The lower classes have always done more than their fair share in any militaristic society; but it would have been unthinkable in Sparta, for instance, for only the helots to serve while the Spartans sat back and sipped White Zinfandel. How is it that our present-day aristocrats manage to demand the ultimate sacrifice from the less-fortunate but react violently when faced with the suggestion that perhaps they too should fight to preserve our liberties?

Where Heather gets it wrong is in implying that our elites are anything but overwhelmingly Republican. Just look at the results of the 2004 election broken down by income bracket. Bush won the over $100,000 income bracket by 58% to 41%. This is his base, as he puts it “the haves and have yachts." Kerry won the under $50,000 income bracket 55% t0 44%. This is the social bracket from which the overwhelming majority of enlisted soldiers come.

Now, of course, no social class is monolithic. There are rich liberals and poor conservatives. Some wealthy conservatives do consider service (Buddy’s daughter for example). But by any standard, the lower, and probably the middle classes are more than pulling their weight in the Global War on Terror. The wealthy, Republican elites, by dodging military service while demanding ever-deeper tax cuts, are, in contrast, bleeding our nation white. God help them if we lose this war. While undoubtedly they will follow the way of their upper class brethren in Nazi-occupied Europe and collaborate with the enemy; the right wing media noise machine led by Rupert Murdoch, Clear Channel, Rush Limbaugh, Trinity Broadcasting Network, Sinclair Broadcasting, CNN and GE’s public relations department – aka NBC, will not be able to produce enough propaganda covering-fire to keep the masses from extracting the debt these elite cowards owe our nation - in blood.

someone said turn the b52's loose again. please. no. they take off for the middle east less than five miles from where i live. they literally scrape over my roof. out every evening and back every morning. wake my dogs. and i find myself counting them in. like in some old ww2 movie.

Kevin, if you think that everyone who makes more than $100K is a "have yacht" type, then you really should get out more. And if you think that raising marginal tax rates is a positive thing for the economy, you should study the economic data of the past 3 years a bit more. Where both parties in Congress and the President are failing the American people is by spending too much on non-essential, bloated programs - see the pharma bill, the highway bill, the farm bill, price supports for the steel industry, etc, etc. If Congress were so concerned about how the military is funded, they would cut these programs and re-direct funds to the DoD. Oh, and look at the receipts taken in by the government over the last three years...they are going up and fast.

The fact that the target was not obliterated from the outset,indicates it was sensitive in some way,either there was a high value members of the opposition that needed to be taken alive,or there was a risk of collateral damage.

Yeah, Kevin, you're living in some sort of cartoon dream-land. You ought to study your propositions a bit more.

Tax cuts can only go to the people who them. It's impossible to cut from zero.

The bottom third of those who file, pay no income tax at all, the top 1% of taxpayers pay one-third of all income tax rcpts. One percent of the population, see if you can figure out what percent of the armed forces come from that 1% of taxpayers. Oh, they're almost all way too old? Imagine that. High thee to the statistics stacks, and report back.

When it comes to quantifying tax cuts, or armed-service representation, you Dems refuse to admit of the existence of the concept of "percentages", don't you? All is static.

Say you have $1000 tax rcpt from 100 people. Say the whole $1000 was paid by 50 of those people. say you pay back a $100 tax-cut out of the $1000. Who does the cut go to? The people who paid in the $1000, right? How can the other 50 get a cut? A cut from what? Really, Kevin!

The 20th century was a massive global experiment to see which of two systems works. Yours kills in millions and impoverishes the material and the spiritual, Kevin. The other may not provide such equal-misery results, but EVERYBODY is 100% better off. All but the drug-addled bottom rung have plenty to eat, roofs over their head--more and more owned by them--and cars, Kevin--CARS. Your system, your brother rats you to the gulag if you're unlucky, if you're lucky, there's only a few other families sharing your cold-water flat and you finally get a washing machine by the time you're 50. What the f**K, are you NUTS or somethin'?

You can't deny the fact that the productive vote overwhelmingly Republican. What Kevin can't quite grasp is that the productive are a growing component of the electorate - especially since a Rep legislature rammed welfare reform down Bubba's throat.

Toss in the positive home ownership trends (per your cite the other day) and an "ownership" society comes ever nearer to realization. It's very odd, but as soon as a person owns property that increases in value they begin to look skeptically at the institutions that have the power to diminish the value of said property.

And if there is one thing that Dems are great at, it's the diminishment of the value of owned property.

So, between the loss of the potential majority that went down the sink in the abortion clinics and the potential majority stolen by being offered actual ownership, Kevin is in for a very, very long wait.

The lower classes have always done more than their fair share in any militaristic society; but it would have been unthinkable in Sparta, for instance, for only the helots to serve while the Spartans sat back and sipped White Zinfandel.

What a wonderful piece of tripe,the helote were slaves captured specifically to keep the Spartan military machine working,because basically the Spartans only had heterosexual intercourse to breed.Eventually they fell below replacement level and died out,a bit like rhe Democrats

And then it suddenly dawned, his whole life had been a lie, all the oh so correct resentments that he had studiously and expensively learned from Big Momma and Cool Bro were delusional. He saw, in a moment, that he could not become a free man in a free country if all he did was hate the freedom of those whom BM and CB taught were the patriarchal predators peddling all the lies of conventional wisdom. "My god", he said to himself, "what are you doing, thinking like a Republican?"...

And then he picked up the July 4, 2005 NYT, and saw their editorial comment on Independence Day - the "founding fathers" had learned their arts from the Iroquois. "Hah, he laughed at himself, recovering from his delusion of delusion, this is some pretty wicked ride I'm on, man... But boy, if I can just knock down Belmont Club, shut them buggers up for a while, heh, I'll know I have mojo and the world will be my oyster."

A totem pole arose from his depths.It seemed almost true at that moment - from Manhattan the island stolen from the natives to Kevinville, built from the sweat of the world's oppressed - that America was indeed the product of a pagan soul.

I haven't really been commenting here very often, although I read regularly. I just responded to the blink of Soroson's eye that Kevin's post represented. Every once and awhile the Wormtongues all slither out together and do a group sneer and snarl. It must have something to do with a perturbation in the cosmic Farce that only Wormtongues can sense.

FA, what was esp wicked about those Spartan killers, it's thought that--tho it was a stste tradition--it wasn't legal or acknowledged publicly by the Establishment. A wink-wink thing--a friggin' secret police. So much for those who think fascist governments just seem to "accidentaly" develop secret police. Tain't no special circumstance, nor a reaction to bad ole capitalism's threat--it's simply a natural part of that system.

Truepeers, wonder if that NYT reporter realizes that the Iroquois allied with the British, during the Revolutionary War. Strongly, too, to the point that Washington had to send rather large armies against the "Six Tribes", who were burning down whole towns in the then northwest/great lakes area (western NY I believe--if i remember right--i was very young then).

Twenty eight years ago the Peanut argued that Iranian secret police were so antithetical to freedom that the Shah needed to leave. At least he didn't certify this last Iranian election. At least, I don't think he did.

That reference says such weapons could make their way into so-and-so's hands. If such weapons have miraclously made their way into such hands in these mountain redoubts, it's time to re-visit - You're with us or agin us.

So far, no such confirmation. Considering the possibilities: 1. advanced SAM >>>OR<<< 2. very limited landing sites that are likely covered by conventional weapons. VERY FEW LANDING SITES are more likely in this terrain.

The thought I can't help but have, re the 5Xdaily, is that there must be some societal function--and all I can come up with is, disorganized and volatile thought-patterns that require continual calming re-sets. But shame on me for such a thought. However--that's not a racial or religious insult per-se, the need for the re-sets are in fact more likely cultural--and they can critique our culture so i 'spose we can theirs. And, when i was say 17-20, I could've used 5 re-sets a day, easy.

Buddy, I have a portrait of Joseph Brandt on my study wall, a real Canadian hero. The Iroquois, of course, were on the "American" side when you were still "British" and fighting the French. Brandt was a Freemason, as were some of the founding fathers, and I would not be surprised if these stories about the fathers learning constitutional arts from the Iroquois - they are continually being recycled, I wonder if especially so up here in anti-American Canada - are not derived from an earlier time when North American Freemasons were part of the cultural mainstream and keen to speculate in their voluminous writings on the affinities, genealogies, and analogies among various forms of symbolism, in their attempts to bring all of human history under one highly ornamented, and psychologically individualistic, roof.

I'm sure I still need at least five resets a day. It's just a question of how you get them. Alone in prayer, together in prayer, in front of the tv, etc., etc. Equality vs. freedom, the fundamental struggle, and both sides claim democracy.

Do we really know from the information at hand exactly how the missing recon team fit into the overall operational scheme at the time they requested a "hot extract"? Not completely, at least not until a more comprehensive account becomes available.

To this former recon marine's intincts, that team was too small to be anything other than a recon unit. Too small to hit something big (like an encampment) or well-defended (like a fortified compound) on its own, but nevertheless fast, stealthy, and extremely lethal unit in its own right.

With topflight night-vision, communications, and location-finding equipment, a small recon team can punch well above its own weight. For example, having an AC-130 gunship, or a flight of A-10s on call can really help a recon unit punch well above its weight.

The degree of its lethality is practically bounded by it's line of sight, literally how much and how far of the battlespace it can see. The more it can see, the more it can kill, assuming it can dial up the fire support as necessary.

All that said, the missing recon team was and is a small part of a much larger operational situation, or dynamic, that is ongoing as we discuss this. During the weeks prior to the loss of the 16 special operators, all accounts indicated that U.S.-led forces walloped larged numbers of Taliban from the air in mountainous areas close to the border with Pakistan.

U.S. forces had encountered much larger Taliban forces than had been expected after the winter lull. The degree of Taliban infliltration and violence had been much higher than the same period last year.

What we are seing, I think, is a major Taliban effort to physically control major portions of the Afghan side of the border, opening of an array of entry points deep into the populated areas surrounding Kandahar, the retaking of which constitutes a major intermediate goal of their planned return to power.

There's a lot more behind the Taliban's resurgence (accusations of ISI's complicity and so on) than time my limited time permits me to adress.

To me, it looks like the "missing team was part of a reconnaissance-led process of pressing the Taliban back into Pakistan along a broad front, perhaps trying to compress their retreat into one or two main routes of egress, trying to cut valleys at their ends, almost simultaneously, in a rolling way parallel to the border, houding and pounding the Talivan from the air, horizontally over ridge line after ridge line.

That recon team got hit by something big and moving fast. Our boys found what they were looking for, but what they were looking for had found them too. Hence the chase and the call for a hot extract that turned into a tragedy. I suspect that team may have been planted right in the path of direct ingress/egress.

Elements of the "lost" recon team may still be in action, dialing up all kinds of death and destruction on the enemy. Recent news reports say that airstrikes have continued on enemy targets in the vicinity of last week's helicopter crash under fire.

We'll know the truth in a few more weeks, but for now, the military has been very tight-lipped about this operation. That means things are still happening in the field, and that may be a very good sign of continued progress.

Let's hope for a day when all Americans can understand the meaning of their sacrifice. I'm still haunted by the memory of sitting in the airport bar in Chicago on the 50th anniversary of D-day, watching the tv coverage from France, and listening to the guy next to me, a Vietnam vet, explain the pain he felt when those WWII vets were remembered, yet again, by world leaders - great guys don't get me wrong, he says, but why did they have to be the last heros?

Exactly what I have thought for a long time: it has always interested me that there was a rash of lynchings of American Blacks in the 1920s, after WWI - and I know that there were lots of African American men served in the US armed forces during that war. And subsequent to WWII, a lot of energy appears in the civil rights movement... it seems that experience as soldiers makes people "uppity."-A simpler solution is that when Southern World War I veterans returned, they found that the 'subhuman' blacks had 'taken' their jobs.

Exit poll data does not count, Kevin. That makes your posting quite deceptive, to put it kindly. It is amazing to many of us up here that you democrats down there cannot simply accept that you lost. Losers have to face their loss and make adjustments. Anything else is quite insane.

Just an open response to earlier responses to what I had written. I have never disrespected the capabilities of our technology and have never disrespected the capabilities of our special forces. My earlier posts were simply general comments on the fact that both sides adapt and learn, and that I believe we have the superior ability to adapt and learn. That the enemy gets lucky sometimes. We get lucky sometimes; but I believe most of our successes are not due to luck, but to training, technology, motivation, and hard work. However, the more I learn about this incident I begin to wonder if the enemy was not laying a trap. It can be done. Initiate some activity; cultivate some rat lines of disinformation to lure in recon team. Bushwack our recon people and then set the bait for the rescuers to be in the line of fire. We must not underestimate the cunning of the enemy. It seems that lately they ARE desperate for some kind of success in either Iraq or Afghanistan, just to keep the recruitment of mujahadeen alive. Look, our people are better than their people. What we bring to the table in every way should crush those folks, but every now and then the other side is going to score some kind of small victory. It happens, that's war, and that's all I'm going to say further on this matter.

"Mr Wafa told reporters that Afghan security forces who had reached Chechal had reported back that 17 civilians, including women and children, had been killed in the bombing."---I can personally vouch for Mr Wafa's credibility.---Time for Wretchard to repost that wedding party massacre....just like the Indians.

Even when they lose the AZ Diamondbacks score some points, so goes the Taliban.As long as our guys are alive they will be swinging, sometimes for the fences, sometimes for base hits. One thing is certain, they will score some points.It is time for some fireworks.

Again doug, that is the Islamists that bend over FIVE time a day.They have learned essence of knees on the ground, butt in the air.Good practice for their fruit basket in Paradise. They'll just love those grapes

"We will bury our dead, mend up our wounded, soothe and comfort the broken hearted, beseech our God ... and then we will come amongst you as a Lion amongst sheep. As our current President has now said, "Today we pray, tomorrow we fight."

Remember this; Teddy Roosevelt sent the US Marines to foreign shores over JUST ONE INNOCENT AMERICAN HELD AGAINST THEIR WILL. You have awakened this sleeping, soft speaking giant at your mortal peril. As you are about to find, although it may take us a moment to grab a firm hold of them, we have not lost track of our big sticks and we are VERY proficient in their use. AND we can and will make more of them ... many more ... and they will be brought down upon your head.

We will soon use them to see you on your way ... not to paradise and Allah ... but to the hell you so richly deserve!

doug - re Live 8: "the greatest thing that's ever been organized in the history of the world."http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/324873p-277681c.html.buddy - can't say i agree about it being "lite on the old leftism," i'm afraid.

Here we met a comet for the first time:. "DEEP IMPACT" .(10,000 watched on TV on Oahu)Kid's got his name in for a job w/the AF working on the data that comes down from the telescopes on the hill....clearances don't take too long when you're 20!

That's why I was thinking we might get Mika to send roses, the advantage being lower shipping....and to show his gratitude for all the years the brave freedom fighter next door brought security to the area.