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Author
Topic: Why I'm not on meds (Read 13745 times)

Willywump, we talk enough HIV/AIDS talk on here. Why don't we just hit da bars and have a good time? I've never gambled before. Maybe I'll win big! I also wanna work on my tan. Who knows, I might just wanna get hitched in Vegas.

It's obvious you guys have the wrong impression of me. I'm not evangelical. Meaning I don't believe that it's my job to save the world. There are differences in opinion and beliefs and I respect those that are different than my own. The fact remains, most of my close friends are on HAART and I FULLY support their decision. All the while choosing not to take it. My friends don't even know why I have chosen not to take ARV's. I don't speak about it in my videoes or when I speak in church about my condition.

The main purpose of this tread is to get more of an understanding of what the numbers mean. So far they don't make sense to me. How can someone with and UD VL and CD4 in the 500 range get KS and it be attributed to HIV when I have a VL of over 300k and have no KS. In my mind, someone who's UD shouldn't be getting ANY OI's. If someone with a tcell count of 200 catch pnemonia and they have it because their CD4 counts are so low. I'm thinking that I should catch pnemonia 4 times before they catch it once. Because they have 4x the immune function I have. This is the problem I'm having with these numbers. Please explain this to me. To answer your question about me starting HAART, of course I will take the drugs if I see that I need them. I always been a healthy person. If I start getting infections common sense will tell me that something's wrong. If I just get pnemonia, it doesn't even have to be PCP, I would consider HAART. For me to rarely catch colds, getting pnemonia would be a big deal. I haven't even had the flu in the past 4 years. So anything worse than a cold or flu would convince me that I'm immunodeficient.

Willywump, we talk enough HIV/AIDS talk on here. Why don't we just hit da bars and have a good time? I've never gambled before. Maybe I'll win big! I also wanna work on my tan. Who knows, I might just wanna get hitched in Vegas.

It's obvious you guys have the wrong impression of me. I'm not evangelical. Meaning I don't believe that it's my job to save the world. There are differences in opinion and beliefs and I respect those that are different than my own. The fact remains, most of my close friends are on HAART and I FULLY support their decision. All the while choosing not to take it. My friends don't even know why I have chosen not to take ARV's. I don't speak about it in my videoes or when I speak in church about my condition.

The main purpose of this tread is to get more of an understanding of what the numbers mean. So far they don't make sense to me. How can someone with and UD VL and CD4 in the 500 range get KS and it be attributed to HIV when I have a VL of over 300k and have no KS. In my mind, someone who's UD shouldn't be getting ANY OI's. If someone with a tcell count of 200 catch pnemonia and they have it because their CD4 counts are so low. I'm thinking that I should catch pnemonia 4 times before they catch it once. Because they have 4x the immune function I have. This is the problem I'm having with these numbers. Please explain this to me. To answer your question about me starting HAART, of course I will take the drugs if I see that I need them. I always been a healthy person. If I start getting infections common sense will tell me that something's wrong. If I just get pnemonia, it doesn't even have to be PCP, I would consider HAART. For me to rarely catch colds, getting pnemonia would be a big deal. I haven't even had the flu in the past 4 years. So anything worse than a cold or flu would convince me that I'm immunodeficient.

There is no doubt that you will contract an OI or more than likely, more than one OI at the same time.

Why do some people with a healthy immune system get the flu and others don't? Why do some people get any disease? We don't live in bubbles, so there are other factors at work regarding whether or not someone will acquire a disease or infection (exposure, past inoculations, other conditions/virus we are infected with, etc).

What everyone here is trying to explain to you is since you are immune compromised, when you do get exposed to one of these OIs, your body is at a great disadvantage to try to fight the condition. This whole "waiting to get sick to prove you are sick" is very foolish and dangerous. You may come down with something that your body can't fight off even with the help of medications because it is just too weak.

Maybe it would be best for you to talk to a clinician about the "why's" behind illness or pick up a good basic biology book - don't rely on individual stories about people because you will never know all the factors at work that lead to their disease progression. No one knows completely. And that is the fact with any disease.

How can someone with and UD VL and CD4 in the 500 range get KS and it be attributed to HIV when I have a VL of over 300k and have no KS. In my mind, someone who's UD shouldn't be getting ANY OI's.

Kaposi's sarcoma is not a good example to use to buttress your argument, because it can occur at any CD4 level and any VL measurement, which is not the case with most of the "classic" opportunistic infections, which usually occur only at very low CD4 levels, scientifically recognized as less than 200. KS is endemic in Africa and is historically recognized as occurring in elderly men of Mediterranean extraction. KS can occur in HIV-negative persons, and there is some evidence that it is becoming more frequent both in HIV-positive gay men with good CD4 levels and suppressed viral load and even in HIV-negative gay men.

KS is directly caused by HHV-8 (Human Herpesvirus Type-8). Most gay men are infected with HHV-8, but most gay men--both HIV-positive and HIV-negative--will not contract KS. The relationship between HHV-8 and HIV is not completely understood, but it is believed that complicated chemical relationships between the two viruses are responsible for the occurrence of KS. Historically, in the early days of the HIV epidemic, when so many contracted KS, it is now understood that the causative factors were low CD4 counts and high viral load. This remains true, but now it is recognized that these factors are not alone sufficient for KS to appear.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:52:41 AM by edfu »

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

It's obvious you guys have the wrong impression of me. I'm not evangelical. ...The main purpose of this tread is to get more of an understanding of what the numbers mean. So far they don't make sense to me. How can someone with and UD VL and CD4 in the 500 range get KS and it be attributed to HIV when I have a VL of over 300k and have no KS. In my mind, someone who's UD shouldn't be getting ANY OI's. If someone with a tcell count of 200 catch pnemonia and they have it because their CD4 counts are so low. I'm thinking that I should catch pnemonia 4 times before they catch it once. Because they have 4x the immune function I have. This is the problem I'm having with these numbers. Please explain this to me. To answer your question about me starting HAART, of course I will take the drugs if I see that I need them. I always been a healthy person. If I start getting infections common sense will tell me that something's wrong. If I just get pnemonia, it doesn't even have to be PCP, I would consider HAART. For me to rarely catch colds, getting pnemonia would be a big deal. I haven't even had the flu in the past 4 years. So anything worse than a cold or flu would convince me that I'm immunodeficient.

Actually, the impression you have given (me, at least) is that you have a very Newtonian worldview, very mechanistic, balls on a pool table /cause and effect / electron circling the core of an atom ...

But that way of thiinking, while very usefull sometimes, doesn't explain lots of everyday events. Sometimes you need to think with a quantum worldview, to replace that image of an electron circling the core with a negatively charged probability cloud around a much denser positively charged probability cloud.

Pretty abstruse...

But it is relevant to your questions.

You are not guaranteed an OI. You have a chance of it, a dice roll. The lower your tcell count the more the dice are loaded against you. But you still get to roll and maybe get lucky.

You keep wondering why you are healthy and looking for a cause. Why are you so unique?

Well, that chart I linked to shows that you that people in your situation are not unexpected. If we had 100 people with your tcell counts from a couple of years ago and withheld HAART from them for two years, 40 of you would be looking around thinking you had some special ability. But we would have expected there to be 40 of you -- it wasn't that you were special, just blind luck.

But you look around nowadays and search for the other 39 people and you can't find them. Does that make you unique? Well, only in a certain mulish resistance to giving up a Newtonian worldview. The other 39 accepted that they didn't want to roll the dice in a quantum world and went on HAART.

And if there were 10 of you on this board, all protesting how unique you were, over a couple of years we would expect 8 or 9 to die or get sick (more, because the odds just get worse and worse ). But the remaining one would still be telling us they are special because they used some weird unregulated supplement, or applied positive thinking or some other unlikely excuse for the failure to be able to recognize dumb luck.

ETAY - you have mentioned several times that you have many HIV+ friends taking HAART.

So have you joined this forum exactly?

I joined to learn more from people who have HIV+. There are a few members like me, and then many members with all kinds of experiences very different than mine. Different experiences with HIV and different personalities to give a different perception of things.

Plus there are fun threads.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Parasites are organisms that live inside humans or other organisms who act as hosts. They are dependent on their hosts because they are unable to produce food or energy for themselves. Parasites are harmful to humans because they consume needed food, eat away body tissues and cells, and eliminate toxic waste, which makes people sick.

"Because of sanitary living conditions in America, parasites do not cause widespread life-threatening infections. In other parts of the world, however, parasitic infections are epidemic. They kill and disable millions of people every year. Parasitic infection cases in the United States are on the rise due to increased travel to and from underdeveloped countries. In addition, parasitic infections can cause severe infections in AIDS patients and other patients with weakened immune systems."

If someone with a tcell count of 200 catch pnemonia and they have it because their CD4 counts are so low. I'm thinking that I should catch pnemonia 4 times before they catch it once. Because they have 4x the immune function I have.

Etay,I now have seen something in that you are continually spouting your numbers and stating your healthy, THAT IS GREAT,but it will not last. With all the work you do I hope your saving for the hospital stay went which could have been prevented. I do wish you the best and hope you are not an entertainer cause refunding money cause you suddenly drop can get pricey and disheartening. I speak from experience. Take care and keep believing in whatever it is you do cause for now it's working, keep his number on speed dial, for later. What sign are you by the way...just for shits and giggles,

I am new to these forums, if you want to talk to me I will not judge you.

What I want to tell you though, is that what you're doing is not going to last. I know it may seem kind of like we are all "hexing" you, but we want you to survive, or atleast I do. Do you enjoy working at your job? Imagine if in a few months you had to quit your job and get on disability because of an illness. I don't think you want to be a government bitch until you die.

I enjoy my sense of autonomy and I would rather die than take 1 cent from the government. The medications do not have that many side effects, as a matter of fact the only side effects I have ever had from the meds were lipoatrophy/lipodystrophy and osteopenia (which I may or may not have had before even being HIV+). If you find a good doctor you could get on an NRTI sparing regimen and avoid a lot of the toxicities of the older meds.

You seem to enjoy working and I know I do too. I am a nurse and I love working with patients, it's the most rewarding job in the world. But I know if I didn't take my meds I would either not be able to go to work, or I'd not be around to.

Please do not believe denialist lies. I know I sound biased, but I used to be a denialist many years ago. I was a denialist until I almost ended up with "AIDS". I never abused alcohol, I never abused drugs, I never did any of the things that the denialists said would cause my CD4 cell count to go down.... and they still did. Please, I know it sounds like bullshit by I was in your shoes once.

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Piss off a democrat: Take responsibility for your life and your actions.

"When Marxist dictators shoot their way into power in Central America, the San Francisco Democrats don't blame the guerrillas and their Soviet allies. They blame United States policies of 100 years ago. But then they always blame America first." -Jeanne Kirkpatrick

tokyodecadence: True, recurrent parasitic infections are a sign of immunodefiency. I had a parasitic infection LAST YEAR (july) that lasted ONE WEEK. Have you ever had a 'bug' before? My doctor didn't give me meds for the infection. I didn't even get the lab result stating that it was a parasite til after the symptoms went away. Obviously, my body fought it and got rid of it. It's been almost a year.

mecch: I've always had friends who were on HAART. I follow 4 people on YouTube that are on HAART. My boyfriend and one of his children are on HAART. What do you mean, have I joined this forum?

Assurbanipal: You're good! I don't do well with gray areas. It's either black or white with me.

I'm concerned about you -- we all are -- and I honestly think you'd benefit from thinking more about the risks and chances of becoming ill rather than thinking of it as an on/off switch and that you are fine until the switch flips up. I was there (although I didn't know I was sick) and when the switch flips it gets miserable fast.

You know, I'm in NJ too -- I'd be glad to buy you a lunch ...if I can use it to talk you into saving your health.

I realize you're new here and probably meant nothing by this, but phrases like that describe those people on disability are frowned upon.

I was just stating my opinion. This guy obvious enjoys working and is proud of it. And he needs to realise that he won't be able to continue that for very long.

"Government Bitch", was meant more along the lines of someone who is at the total mercy of the government all the time. That person has to deal with the government's BS, the red tape, etc. It's not a situation I want to be in and I don't mind voicing that opinion. I also wouldn't want to have paralysed limbs.

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Piss off a democrat: Take responsibility for your life and your actions.

"When Marxist dictators shoot their way into power in Central America, the San Francisco Democrats don't blame the guerrillas and their Soviet allies. They blame United States policies of 100 years ago. But then they always blame America first." -Jeanne Kirkpatrick

I was just stating my opinion. This guy obvious enjoys working and is proud of it. And he needs to realise that he won't be able to continue that for very long.

"Government Bitch", was meant more along the lines of someone who is at the total mercy of the government all the time. That person has to deal with the government's BS, the red tape, etc. It's not a situation I want to be in and I don't mind voicing that opinion. I also wouldn't want to have paralysed limbs.

I didn't even get the lab result stating that it was a parasite til after the symptoms went away. Obviously, my body fought it and got rid of it. It's been almost a year.

When one has an immune system as severely depleted as yours is, quite often the body makes no (or a limited) response to pathogens. This means you have no symptoms or symptoms that seem to be self-limiting.

This is why immune reconstitution inflammatory syndrome (IRIS) happens to some people who start on HAART when they have very low CD4 counts. The meds improve the immune system and it starts dealing with problems, which causes symptoms to occur.

You need to realise that in many instances, symptoms are what you feel when your immune system responds to a pathogen, they're not a result of the pathogen itself. If your immune system is too weak to deal with a pathogen, you'll still have that pathogen in your body, but you won't have any symptoms.

One very good example is ARS - acute retroviral syndrome, aka seroconversion illness. The symptoms that some people experience when first infected with hiv are not caused by the virus itself, but rather by the process the body goes through to produce antibodies. This process includes the production of interferon, and interferon in the body will give you flu-like symptoms. Just ask anyone who has taken synthetic interferon for hep C infection.

You would be wise to get tested for parasites again to make sure your body really did clear the problem. Not having symptoms - in light of your very low CD4 count - is no measure of health or bug clearance. As Matty said, the parasites could just be "sleeping".

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I was just stating my opinion. This guy obvious enjoys working and is proud of it. And he needs to realise that he won't be able to continue that for very long.

"Government Bitch", was meant more along the lines of someone who is at the total mercy of the government all the time. That person has to deal with the government's BS, the red tape, etc. It's not a situation I want to be in and I don't mind voicing that opinion. I also wouldn't want to have paralysed limbs.

"Government bitch" is an offensive term to many who are forced to survive on government assistance, regardless of how you meant it.

If someone came here and started gay-bashing, they would be reprimanded and possibly given a time out or banned, even if they claimed they were "just stating" their opinion.

Please be more careful about using terms like this. And please familiarise yourself with our posting guidelines, found in the main Welcome Thread. Thank you for your cooperation.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

"Government Bitch", was meant more along the lines of someone who is at the total mercy of the government all the time. That person has to deal with the government's BS, the red tape, etc. It's not a situation I want to be in and I don't mind voicing that opinion. I also wouldn't want to have paralysed limbs.

Hey Torrez, I'm a government bitch as you state.Specifically, I am a United States Army Veteran, and if it wasn't for the VA Health System, I would have been dead years ago. I also get help for paying for my medications, I have been a government HIV/AIDS activist for about 30 years, and pretty much been reliant on the Social Security system for all of my income.

Do I miss work? Of course you strupid person. Why the hell do you think I spent five years in a wheel chair? Yes, it was because of the HIV and the medications. Boy, you do have a load of information to learn, and if you can put some of your insipid thoughts about many of the people here behind you; you just might find it a welcoming place. You have not started well.

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The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,and 362 to heterosexuals.This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, It's just that they need more supervision.Lynn Lavne

Moffie, you're intelligent enough to not have to resort to name-calling to get your point across. I'm sure you're aware that name-calling in this forum is prohibited by our posting guidelines, which I referred Mr Torres to.

Mr Torres has been told that the language he used to describe people who rely on government assistance was offensive and unacceptable, so can we please end the hijack and get back to the subject at hand in this thread - Etay and not taking meds.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Etay, I think I've told you before - the only way you'll be banned is if you disregard our forum rules and Terms of Membership concerning denialist material. Although you have decidedly denialist leanings, you haven't been posting their twisted, misconstrued versions of science. If you do start posting such misinformation, you WILL be outta here, no doubt about that. Or if I find you're using PMs for this purpose.

I hope it never comes to this because one day, perhaps very soon, you're going to need this site for moral and informational support.

You say you know denialists who have been poz for ten years and they are still without meds. I've been poz for coming up on thirteen years (in May) and I'm not on meds myself, but that's not because I'm a denialist or IN denial, it's just because my numbers, unlike yours, are good. I will most definitely take the meds when my numbers indicate the need.

There are plenty of denialist who never took the meds and are now six feet under. Have a look at this list of dead denialists. And those are just the ones who were infamous for their outspokenness. We'll probably never know the true extent of denialist deaths where their followers are concerned.

Please, Etay, I implore you to spend some time on the website I linked to above, so you can discover the lies you have been fed by denialist. Your life depends on it.

Ann

I agree only to the point that maybe your mental capacity is damaged and you are acting out and not really in a good mental place. i have been there believing that everyone is wrong and that I am the only one right, but now I believe that I was so stress out most likely from the virus, that good judgement went out the window and madness was slowly creeping in. Again, if you are doing well, then good for you, but maybe you are not paying attention to the real effects the virus is having on your system. Being in sound mind and body is dependent on being in sound mind and body. Otherwise, you are fooling yourself. I am not saying to jump on the band wagon, but I am saying make sure you are in 100 % good physical and mental health.

Ann, I hear what you are saying and know that is the basis for IRS. This is why that doesn't make sense to me. When you are young you get chicken pox. The symptoms go away but the virus stays in your body and only "flares up" as shingles when your immune system is compromised for some reason. PCP is caused by a fungus that is found in most people. It gives you PCP only when your immune system is not working properly. Pathogens come to TAKE OVER. I would be dead if my immune system had not responded.

Ann, I hear what you are saying and know that is the basis for IRS. This is why that doesn't make sense to me. When you are young you get chicken pox. The symptoms go away but the virus stays in your body and only "flares up" as shingles when your immune system is compromised for some reason. PCP is caused by a fungus that is found in most people. It gives you PCP only when your immune system is not working properly. Pathogens come to TAKE OVER. I would be dead if my immune system had not responded.

No sir, this is where you're wrong. So let's say you have no immune system left. Your body doesn't feel bad because you don't feel everything going terribly wrong. Fever is an immune response not anything a virus or bacteria actually causes. When you have nothing left to produce the ill effects of well, being ill you won't feel the incessant bastards storming in. I can attest that the first few months on meds were harsh mostly because my body was kicking the junk out of all the crap that had been going on while it was too diminished to do a proper job. Take the meds already Christine.

John, what keeps the pathogens "in check"? When you are infested with some pathogen, it continues to multiply if not stopped by your body. People with no immune systems must live in bubbles for they can't afford to come in contact with ANYTHING.

Ann, I hear what you are saying and know that is the basis for IRS. This is why that doesn't make sense to me. When you are young you get chicken pox. The symptoms go away but the virus stays in your body and only "flares up" as shingles when your immune system is compromised for some reason. PCP is caused by a fungus that is found in most people. It gives you PCP only when your immune system is not working properly. Pathogens come to TAKE OVER. I would be dead if my immune system had not responded.

Etay

I think you are back to that all black or white / no grey thinking again. Once you start to go downhill it is not necessarily a straight slide. In fact, that is probably the exception.

Me, I got over pneumonia twice before it almost killed me the third time and I got a diagnosis and started HAART. But the dice rolls got worse and worse on getting sick....

Actually I'm kinda glad you're making these posts. Since you have a devil may care attitude about your own health, I'm just not going to care anymore about how sick you get. I'm done with you permanently. Congratulations Etay you're the first person on these forums I'm going to put on ignore, because I just can't take the constant prattle of your ignorance anymore.

Correction, even if one had a ZERO CD4 cell count that would not mean they did not have an immune system. CD4 cells help to form a coordinated immune response. The body would still produce interferons, histamines, interleukins, TNF, antibodies, monocytes, eosinophiles, basophiles, etc.

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Piss off a democrat: Take responsibility for your life and your actions.

"When Marxist dictators shoot their way into power in Central America, the San Francisco Democrats don't blame the guerrillas and their Soviet allies. They blame United States policies of 100 years ago. But then they always blame America first." -Jeanne Kirkpatrick

WillyWump, I got sick because I had a stomach flu. The same stomach flu that many HIV- people got. A few people on here even talked about it. Read the previous posts. Maybe you didn't get sick because YOU have no immune response

WillyWump, I got sick because I had a stomach flu. The same stomach flu that many HIV- people got. A few people on here even talked about it. Read the previous posts. Maybe you didn't get sick because YOU have no immune response

Hi Etay...I don't really blame anyone who has any trepidation about starting antiretrovirals, it is certainly not an easy choice one must make.

For me there was no choice as I saw it. I had been sick with pneumonia and bouts with thrush and molusscum contagiousm of the skin. I started on AZT, 3TC and later added Crixivan to form the cocktail and complete and really benefit my regime at the time. I started to get much better and regained 40 pounds - I'm 6'3" and was down to about 145 pounds. I was then able to go to the gym and live normally again. I know the meds had a Lazarus like effect on me, I literally was close to death.

So you might say that I am proving your point, that starting meds after taking ill is an option, but why take that risk as you don't want to get sick at all and find yourself in deep shit all of a sudden, who knows. Certainly there is alot more available info out there these days to educate everyone who can be reached.

Again to be honest I do relate in some ways but would advise against putting all your faith in hoping you will always live with HIV and the absence of serious illness. Take care and good luck in your decisions.

Jody

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"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world". "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

While many of these things have been shown to depress the human immune system to an extent, none have depressed it to the level that HIV does.

But for a denialist it's basically anything you can think of except HIV. They also believe in these magic potions, similar to the ones that I see people here using sometimes, such as "astralagus". They follow these crazy diets prescribed by Doctor Mercola. None of their treatments from HIV have any well performed scientific studies to back them up, just rumours and folklore.

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Piss off a democrat: Take responsibility for your life and your actions.

"When Marxist dictators shoot their way into power in Central America, the San Francisco Democrats don't blame the guerrillas and their Soviet allies. They blame United States policies of 100 years ago. But then they always blame America first." -Jeanne Kirkpatrick

I bet I live longer then those who don't take meds. I've been consuming all kinds of life saving drugs. I'm good for the Economy, and I'm good to myself. I'm faffing at those who told me i wouldn't make it for ten years. They said my liver would be the size of a pea.

Those that told me that are gone. 25th anniversary is next month. My liver is the size of, um, a normal liver. to each their own.

WillyWump, I got sick because I had a stomach flu. The same stomach flu that many HIV- people got. A few people on here even talked about it. Read the previous posts. Maybe you didn't get sick because YOU have no immune response

I think I may have discovered one of your logical flaws that make you believe you are choosing correctly avoiding HAART.

Being on HAART does NOT destroy your immune response, my dear. In fact the opposite. I had inadequate immune response to HIV, as you are now having, and as you have been having for many years, for your CD4s to go so low. Mine was evident within a month.

After I went on HAART, the specialist said that not all my improved numbers were the result of HAART. In fact he said my immune reponse seemed to kick in finally to help.

HIV destroys. HAART does not destroy. It stops replication and your body can find a new equilibrium. Bodies are very strong, witness yours. But your body is losing. HIV will win. HIV will kill you. HAART will save you. Not taking HAART is not keeping you alive. It is hurting you badly at this point.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx