TORONTO -- The remarkable tale of Xenu and the volcanoes is echoing across the anarchic Internet. Scientology is not pleased.

In the 44 years since U.S. science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard set up the nucleus of what would become a multinational organization, the group's inner teachings have been cloaked in secrecy, revealed only to a few adepts and protected by formidable copyright laws.

Premature exposure to the esoteric material could prove hazardous, the organization warns.

But in a fashion that might astonish Mr. Hubbard, who died in 1986, cyberspace has changed everything.

Amid galaxies of Scientology-related material, much of it hostile to the Hollywood-based organization, numerous Web sites are devoted to what Scientology regards as its most sacred texts.

Atop the list is the saga of the galactic ruler Xenu, whose act of mass murder millions of years ago, Scientologists believe, is a key source of mankind's difficulties.

It seems doubtful that such beliefs will affect the groups's current application with Revenue Canada for charitable status as a religion. People, after all, may believe what they wish.

But in an era when Scientology is anxious to shed a cultish image and secure mainstream recognition as a religion, Xenu and his ilk could prove a liability.

"Cyberspace is an enormous problem for Scientology," said Stephen Kent, a University of Alberta sociologist who has spent years examining the group. "Opponents around the world share information quickly and often humorously."

They do it with cartoons, anecdotes and essays that mock Mr. Hubbard's credentials and the organization's claim of eight million adherents. There are court judgments. There are defectors' accounts. There are ostensibly top-secret internal directives from Mr. Hubbard, impossible to verify.

And there is the legend of Xenu (sometimes called Xemu), to which only those at very advanced stages of Scientology instruction are privy.

Xenu goes unmentioned in Scientology's publicly distributed leaflets and magazines. Indeed, the group says it has filed five violation-of-copyright lawsuits to thwart the posting of confidential material on the World Wide Web, with two successes so far.

As well, Scientology officials have more than once secured U.S. court orders permitting them to seize their foes' computers. Scientology cites the U.S. Uniform Trade Secrets Act, which prohibits the dissemination of material that "derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from being generally known to the public."

Last year, an amendment to the U.S. Copyright Act toughened the penalties for infringements, a move in which Scientology says it was instrumental.

Toronto Scientology president Janet Laveau said: "This is out-of-context materials that have been taken and twisted and perverted. . . . What they are putting out is incorrect information. . . . The real materials are not open to the general public. They are considered to be some of the sacred materials of the church.

"It would be a little bit like taking a parable from the Bible and altering that and then saying, 'This is what all Christians are about, this is what all Christians believe.' "

It is not just dissidents who post Scientology material on the Web. Last month, The Wall Street Journal printed a story about a confidential Scientology tax deal with the U.S. government and provided extra information through its Internet edition.

"That was appalling, horrendous," said Rev. Al Buttnor, a Toronto Scientology minister. "What is the fanatical interest with a minority religion?"

But the Internet, where anyone can say anything, and say it to an unknown audience, is not where the Xenu legend got its first large airing. It got it in the pages of the Los Angeles Times 12 years ago during a lawsuit in which a former Scientologist claimed that the organization promised him enhanced intelligence and business success if he took costly training.

When the court file was opened briefly for public inspection, Scientologists tried to stop outsiders from seeing it by swarming the courthouse, lining up at wickets and swamping clerks with requests for copies. But the Times got a look at the disputed documents.

It said they suggested that many human ills date from an atrocity 75 million years ago while Earth was part of an overcrowded confederation ruled by Xenu.

The tyrant solved the population problem by rounding up excess beings, transporting them to volcanoes on Earth and dropping hydrogen bombs on them. (An erupting volcano graces the cover of the Scientology primer Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health .) The victims' spirits gathered in clusters and attached themselves to humans, whom they haunt to this day.

On the Internet, there is much discussion of Xenu and these parasitic spirits ("body thetans") and whether they can be removed by Scientology procedures that involve re-experiencing the explosions that turned the volcanoes into cauldrons of fire.

"Stop cruelty to body thetans now," one of the satirical Web sites urges. "They are extremely cheap, requiring no food, and can be taken anywhere, hence no kenneling bills or quarantine. They leave no unsightly mess on the carpet and are extremely loyal, staying with their host for lifetime after lifetime."

Despite their warnings about unauthorized material, Ms. Laveau and her colleagues do not disavow the Xenu legend, nor suggest it is no longer taught. Scientology doctrine is based exclusively on the writings of the late Mr. Hubbard and does not change, Mr. Buttnor said. "If it gets modified, it doesn't work. So we want to keep it pure."

It is not clear how much of the inner lore has been absorbed by Scientology's most famous adherents, such as actors John Travolta, Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman.

Canadian content over the years has included actress Karen Black and talk-show personality Dini Petty, who quit the organization in the mid-eighties, concluding that it had become "pretty much money-oriented," she said in an interview.

Some of those figures have lent their names to the cause. But there are now many other voices to be heard, as the Internet relays not just text, but interviews, critical statements and radio and television programs.

"Scientology opponents are making constant use of real audio," Prof. Kent said. "People transfer audio sounds into digital bits that then get posted, downloaded, and played back on people's computers."

Scientology, for its part, has its own network of Web sites. But its enthusiasm for the Net seems muted.

"Cyberspace poses problems for everyone," Ms. Laveau said. "It's such a powerful medium. If it's used responsibly, it's such a wonderful tool."

She and other Scientology officials urge great caution in believing what their critics dispatch into cyberspace.

At Scientology's U.S. headquarters, spokeswoman Karin Pouw said: "On the volcanoes, et cetera, there is the mythology on one hand and there is religious practice, belief and theology on the other. The two are distinct, and please do not mix them."

Does she believe the story of Xenu and the volcanoes? "That is not really something I will answer," she said.

Some other Web sites, whose source is unclear, take aim at some of Scientology's more prominent critics, posting their photographs in a rogue's gallery, along with a range of defamatory comments.

Mr. Hubbard and his achievements are described and praised at great length. Yet for the Scientology critics, there is scant distinction between his novels and his doctrines.

"This is all utterly Hubbard's invention -- completely," said defector Gerry Armstrong, who tells of spending years as the founder's legal officer aboard the Scientology ship Apollo.

Mr. Armstrong, high on the organization's list of enemies, fled to British Columbia, he says, because of harassment from the group.

"But you have to understand the tremendous controls that are put on people. If you have even a doubt about Scientology, that doubt gets completely suppressed. You certainly cannot talk to anyone about those doubts. The goal is domination and control. What makes a Scientologist a Scientologist is unswerving obedience."

If so, that would explain Scientology's warnings about what it terms "the promise and the perils" of cyberspace.

"While millions visit the online world for information, enjoyment and services, an unscrupulous few furnish it with a dark side," one official Scientology message warns. "Privacy invasions, lawlessness, intolerance and theft. They could ruin cyberspace for everybody."

Here are some basic teachings of Scientology, condensed and paraphased by The Globe and Mail:

Trillions of years ago, we were spirits -- thetans -- living in a void. We were very powerful, practically immortal and bored. We adopted bodies for amusement. Nowadays, most of us think we are bodies. Scientology is the way to freedom from that delusion. The way is not easy.

We must retrieve and overcome painful memories of lives marred by galactic wars, planetary invasions, enslavements of populations, brutal tyrannies, systematic torture and other unpleasantness. We will do this with the help of an electrical device called an E-meter, which responds to thought and guides us to areas of trauma.

The is no shortage of trauma. Before we reached Earth, our human bodies climbed their own grim ladder of evolution, experiencing much pain, which we will remember. We will remember past lives in historical settings and bad times in the womb. We will transcend the flesh. Our true selves, invisible thetans, are not confined to the body, and often control it from three feet behind the head.

... and we will remember lrh as a profiteering "Snake Oil Salesman of the 20th Century."

Local Scientologists like Richard Gariepy may wonder why I have not interviewed them as part of my research on their organization (letter, July 12) but my specific research focus gives me no reason to do so.

Journal readers can find out more about Scientology's programs by accessing the World Wide Web site with the unfortunate name, "Operation Clambake," at http://www.xenu.net/

In no way does my research challenge Scientologists' right to believe what they want, and I am aware of the good works (and the controversies around some of them) about which Mr. Gariepy speaks. Research findings, however, do raise serious human rights issues about the consequences of some Scientology practices, and the organization is unwilling or unable to discuss them.

Stephen A. Kent

Professor, Department of Sociology, Faculty of Arts

University of Alberta

... and we will remember lrh as a profiteering "Snake Oil Salesman of the 20th Century."

OC has materials already on this issue with Kent, but I didn't see the following included, Kent's letter to the editor of Globe and Mail, 1998:Defamatory attack
Stephen A. Kent. The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Oct 16, 1998. pg. A.20
...Section: Letter to the Editor ...
All material copyright Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. or its licensors. All rights reserved.
Defamatory attack

Friday, October 16, 1998

Edmonton -- In early June, The Globe and Mail distributed an insert published by The Church of Scientology entitled Freedom. This insert contained an article that amounted to a lengthy and defamatory attack on me and my research on new and alternative religions, particularly Scientology itself.

As an insert in The Globe and Mail, this Scientology publication and the article about me may have enjoyed a greater degree of credibility than would otherwise have been the case, which prompts my response in these pages.

Presumably, the attack on me was occasioned by my published work and presentations about Scientology, including those in which I have stated my concerns about what I perceived as probable human-rights abuses within the Scientology organization. The article was especially critical of, but vague about, presentations that I made in Germany last year concerning Scientology. From reading the article, no one could know that my presentations were about what in my view are Scientology's probable human-rights abuses, and that I made these presentations at the invitation of German government officials and others who were investigating Scientology.

Rather than engage me in a dialogue or debate about these human-rights issues and concerns, Scientology -- through its publication -- chose to launch a personal attack upon my character and research skills.

My statements and conclusions about Scientology are thoroughly researched, carefully documented, and based on interviews and extensive citations from the organization's own materials. Moreover, I take full responsibility for what I have written and said. In contrast, no individual takes responsibility for being the author of the statements made against me in the Scientology publication, or even for the publication itself. Why not?

I am not the only researcher who questions Scientology's practices or who reports on them. Many Web sites devote themselves to the debates surrounding the controversial organization. One of the most thorough sites may be found at http://www.xenu.net

In my view, the heightened media attention that Scientology is receiving indicates that increasing numbers of people are realizing that Scientology deserves close scrutiny. Earlier this year, Canadians may have seen a television segment about Scientology on CBS's Public Eye with Bryant Gumbel. Likewise articles on the same topic ran in the July 21, 1997, edition of Newsweek and the Dec. 1, 1997, edition of The New York Times. The Globe and Mail ran a two-part series on Scientology on Jan. 19-20, 1998. Later this year, both ABC's 20/20 and Arts and Entertainment will present shows concerning the organization. I am pleased that Scientology is receiving so much public attention.

PhD, Professor of Sociology, University of Alberta

... and we will remember lrh as a profiteering "Snake Oil Salesman of the 20th Century."

How dare you include Scientology in your five-part series on religion.

Scientology is NOT a religion. Scientology is a money-making cult. Scientology preys on the emotionally and psychologically vulnerable using mind-control techniques to take over their lives and their money.

It was started in the 1950s by a science fiction writer named L. Ron Hubbard in fulfillment to his declared aim to start a religion to make money. It is an offshoot to a method of psychotherapy he concocted from various sources which he named Dianetics.

Dianetics is a form of regression therapy. It was then further expanded to appear more like a religion in order to enjoy tax benefits. He called it Scientology.

I quote L. Ron Hubbard:

"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."

It would be prudent if you did some research on the subject before including it under the false guise of religion.

I refer you to the Operation Clambake site http://www.xenu. net/ roland-intro.html which will guide you to further sites on the discussion of whether or not it is indeed a religion.

Elly Litvak,

Vancouver

... and we will remember lrh as a profiteering "Snake Oil Salesman of the 20th Century."

There's nothing unusual about celebrities promoting their faith - think Madonna and Kabbalah, Richard Gere and Buddhism, Muhammad Ali and Islam - but the Church of Scientology's Celebrity Centres have been unusually adept at cultivating entertainers like actor Tom Cruise.

The centres offer private counseling and courses to prominent church members, and while they are open to all Scientologists, their primary purpose is to recruit celebrities and use the celebrities' prestige to help expand Scientology.

It was no ordinary celebrity feud when Cruise criticized Brooke Shields for taking anti-depression drugs, then berated Today host Matt Lauer for suggesting that psychiatric treatment might help some patients.

This was, rather, the latest round in a long-running campaign against psychiatry and the pharmaceutical industry by this expanding, Los Angeles-based religion, which has been immersed in controversies over its 51 years of existence.

Scientology and psychiatry offer directly competing explanations of the source for mental problems and techniques to deal with them.

Scientology was created by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. In Dianetics (1950), Hubbard said the "thetan" (soul) suffers from negative "engrams" implanted in this life and innumerable past lives - the church avoids the word "reincarnation."

Scientology "auditors" help clients work through problems using an "e-meter," similar to a lie detector. They seek a state called Clear and then advance through various levels of Operating Thetan.

The church charges that psychiatry "does not meet any known definition of a science, what with its hodgepodge of unproven theories that have never produced any result." It considers reliance on psychotropic drugs as dangerous as past treatments like electric shock or lobotomies.

The American Psychiatric Association's president said recently it was irresponsible for Cruise to "deter people with mental illness from getting the care they need." The association said "rigorous, published, peer-reviewed research clearly demonstrates" that psychiatric treatment works.

Hubbard died in 1986, but his church has continued to find believers and court controversy.

Over the decades, Scientology has been the target of - and initiator of - an unusual number of legal and rhetorical assaults. These have involved not only psychiatrists but disgruntled dropouts and government agencies, first in the United States and then in Canada and overseas as the church's missions expanded.

In recent years, conflict with Germany's government has been particularly heated, though the church reports recent court victories.

An epic struggle with America's Internal Revenue Service ran 39 years and ended with a 1993 grant of tax exemption. At issue was a basic question: What defines a religion anyway?

David Bromley, a Virginia Commonwealth University sociologist, says Scientology posed a complex problem because it didn't "fit the standard religious model" and "had elements of religion, elements of a business, and started as Dianetics therapy."

To J. Gordon Melton, editor of the Encyclopedia of American Religions, a religion deals with ultimate life questions "beyond the limits of science that we need answers to" and Scientology qualifies - but not, for example, Freemasonry or Werner Erhard's est training.

Melton categorizes Scientology as a "psychic New Age" faith akin to the Gnostic heresy expelled by early Christianity. He says Gnostics see "the soul trapped in the body and forgetting who it is," and offer tools for escape into "divine status."

Scientology is apparently also like Gnosticism in imparting secret knowledge to elites. Critics at www.xenu.netand elsewhere say advanced Scientologists are taught that 75 million years ago the cosmic ruler Xenu paralyzed billions of people in our galaxy, stacked them on Earth and destroyed their bodies with H-bombs, though the traumatized souls survived.

The church does not discuss these matters.

Scientology is led by David Miscavige, chairman of its Religious Technology Centre, with church president Heber Jentzsch serving as administrator. Thousands of others serve in a religious order called the Sea Organization. Top-level training occurs aboard a Caribbean ship.

The religion conducts Sunday services and regards Hubbard's recorded lectures and 500,000 pages of writings as scriptural. His theology says man is basically good and what people call God or the Supreme Being "is correctly defined as infinity" and is not an object of worship.

The church does not report its income; critics have described it as a commercial enterprise, and charge that donations expected in return for auditing sessions and training are exorbitant.

The church says donations run from $100 U.S. for introductory auditing to $2,000 for a more intensive course; it compares this with the cost of a college education. Melton thinks the payments are similar to what tithe-paying Christians contribute over a lifetime.

Another common complaint is that the Scientologists harassed dropouts and critics, particularly through the secretive Guardian's Office. The church responds that the GO has long since been abolished.

Miscavige told a rally last August that Scientology is "the only major new religion of the 20th century" and "the fastest growing religion on Earth."

That's debatable, but the church reports 4,228 local centres worldwide, including Canada, compared with only 1,855 in 2000. Another 1,002 outlets work on literacy, drug rehabilitation or training of prison inmates. The church says there are 10 million active Scientologists worldwide with about a third in the United States; Melton, a friendly observer, thinks that number is inflated.

But evangelism proceeds, aided by recruits like Cruise, and Jentzsch says the church is becoming less controversial as people learn about it and hostilities subside.

Re: The Globe and Mail's Web not helping Scientology Cyberspace exposure of galactic ruler counters group's bid to shed cult image
You can find this article scanned at http://heritage.theglobeandmail.com
and use the search.

... and we will remember lrh as a profiteering "Snake Oil Salesman of the 20th Century."

Would you be able to kill small animals? Do you twitch during the night? Would you have more than two children, even if you couldn’t afford them?

Just three of the bizarre questions you are asked if you try to enrol in the Hubbard Academy of Personal Independence, the Scottish base of Scientology, the controversial sect with famous adherents such as Tom Cruise and John Travolta.

Labelled a cult by its critics, defended as a bona fide religion by devotees, it is never far from the headlines, though it is generally viewed from these shores as another American oddity.

But Scientology does have a foothold in Britain, claiming up to 7,000 members in Scotland alone. And the strange world of Scientology, which believes aliens visited Earth millions of years ago, was exposed last week by a Panorama documentary.

Millions watched as BBC reporter John Sweeney, who was attempting to investigate the organisation, claimed he had been continually followed by “creepy” strangers, shouted at, repeatedly called a bigot and had his hotel invaded late at night by camera-toting Scientologists.

By his own admission, the BBC reporter “lost the plot” and bellowed “like an exploding tomato” in one confrontation with senior Scientologist Tommy Davis.

In an attempt to find the truth about the organisation, and especially its links to Scotland, I went to the grandly titled Hubbard Academy on Edinburgh’s South Bridge. Its crested owl logo evoked images of austere ivory towers and a leafy campus, but the reality was somewhat different.

On arrival, the owl sign pointed me up some stairs to offices where fresh paint and newly laid wooden floors indicated a movement on the rise.

The reception area was lined with floor-to-ceiling shelves laden with official Scientology literature and dominated by a bronze bust of L. Ron Hubbard, one-time science fiction writer, pilot, musician and photographer who founded Scientology in 1952.

With his wide-open mouth and pronounced widow’s peak, the cravat-wearing Nebraskan looked an unlikely candidate for international veneration. He died in 1986, but a DVD of him on a constant loop ensures he is a constant presence.

I was there for the free personality, IQ and aptitude tests advertised on the Scientology website. “Expert evaluators will help you identify your strong points and weaknesses so that you can be in control of your life and career,” it promised. “Know yourself. Know your future.”

After being greeted by a pleasant, smartly dressed, middle-aged English woman, I was directed to a desk and given a 200-question personality test. As I checked box after box, a broad range of sect members glided past, from teenagers to senior citizens.

Scientology is one of the fastest growing sects in the world, claiming more than eight million members around the globe, including Hollywood stars Juliette Lewis and Kirstie Alley, soul legend Isaac Hayes and musician Beck. If anyone doubted the movement had crossed the Atlantic, this was dispelled by the opening of a huge new headquarters in London last October. Then, chief superintendent Kevin Hurley of the City of London Police praised Scientologists as “a force for good - raising the spiritual wealth of society”. It later emerged that at least 20 of his fellow officers had accepted hospitality from the Church of Scientology, including invitations to the premiere of Mission Impossible 3 and tickets to a £500-a-head dinner attended by Tom Cruise.

A Scientology offshoot, the Association for Better Living and Education, sponsored stalls at both the Labour and Conservative party conferences last autumn to promote Narconon, the cult’s drug rehabilitation programme which advises children to avoid addiction by taking saunas and eating vitamins.

Since its inception, Scientology has been dogged by claims that something sinister lurks beneath the glossy brochures and wide smiles of its adherents.

Even in the 1950s, the American magazine New Republic described Dianetics, a key part of the Scientology creed, as a “bold and immodest mixture of complete nonsense and perfectly reasonable common sense, taken from long acknowledged findings and disguised and distorted by a crazy, newly invented terminology”.

Today, the anti-sect website Operation Clambake labels Scientology “a vicious and dangerous cult that masquerades as a religion”. There have been persistent claims that members have been subject to psychological manipulation and that strong steps are taken against those who criticise or disown Scientology.

Ian Howarth, founder of the Cult Information Centre, has been a longstanding critic. “Scientology is a multimillion-dollar empire and operates all over the world,” he said. “I often quote Judge Latey of the High Court of Justice who in 1984 characterised the Church of Scientology as ‘corrupt, immoral sinister and dangerous’.”

Howarth said the assumption that only loners and misfits were attracted to such movements was a common misconception. “The easiest people to recruit are those who have an economically advantaged background, an above-average intelligence, a good education and who are idealistic.

“They are idealistic in the sense they are caring and would like to make their world a better place. Scientologists describe themselves as a religion but they have never been allowed charitable status.”

As the BBC’s Sweeney found to his cost, those who openly challenge Scientology are often faced with vociferous rebuttals. He claimed Scientology operated a policy of “disconnection” where relatives and friends of members who were sceptical about the organisation were completely cut off and shunned.

This pugnacious reputation, warranted or not, led one expert on religion to turn down the invitation to comment on Scientology. He said: “Scientologists have a longstanding policy of attempting to discredit or sue academics who speak out about their activities in any negative way. There is no way I am going to put my head above the parapet.”

Back at the Hubbard Academy, the questions went on and on. I was asked whether I believed in maintaining social classes and segregating people on the basis of their colour, whether I would be able to kill small animals and fish in a “hunting situation”. Did I twitch at night or shake involuntarily during the day? Would I be suspicious of people seeking to borrow money?

Eventually I finished and handed back the completed questionnaire. It took a surprisingly short time for the answers to be analysed by a smiling young woman who produced a graph based on my answers.

I was then ushered into another room by a man in his thirties whose down-to-earth manner put me at ease. My results, however, did not.

The graph undulated sharply from jagged point to jagged point. I was told there was a narrow band of acceptable results. Mine, unfortunately, were way off normal for all categories, veering towards depression rather than happiness, irresponsibility rather than responsibility.

Following this bombshell I was asked a series of questions that seemed to require an emotional response. Had I lost anyone recently? Had I been on anti-depressants or any form of medication?

My inquisitor looked slightly puzzled by my cheerful responses and demeanour. I think this was the point at which the script suggested I would spill my guts about my problems and beg for help.

Not to be undone, he prescribed a book about Dianetics and handed me a leaflet advertising other books, DVDs and CDs expounding Hubbard’s creed. The tomes and “self-improvement kits” on offer ranged from £5 to £50.

I left the academy feeling that Scientology was more self-help business than religion. I also left with a smiling, open invitation to return. I don’t think I’ll be taking up that invitation.

Despite repeated attempts to engage the Church of Scientology in this article, no comment or statement could be obtained.

[img]http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/liebe/190.gif[/img]Desert Rain
The Two Most Powerful Weapons Against Fear are Love and Truth.
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/
http://www.lermanet.com
http://www.enturbulation.org

I am concerned that Scientology believes that we became trapped here by the alien galactic ruler, Xenu, who rounded up billions of "renegades" who were put into space planes and flown to the Planet Earth where they were stacked around the bases of volcanoes and H-bombed. (www.Xenu.net).

Those who doubt the Church of Scientology see something more sinister at play. One of the loudest such voices is a man in Tananger, Norway — Andreas Heldal-Lund — whose anti-Scientology Xenu.net Web site airs all sorts of claims about the church.

Heldal-Lund says most Scientologists are good people with good intentions, but its leaders simply want to expand their reach and buy credibility.

“People need to understand that this is used deliberately by the management of Scientology to get a foothold,” he said. “They are good at infiltrating. They are good at luring people.”

Where's Tananger?

I'm afraid i didn't read much of the rest of the article in fear that i might stick random pieces of cutlary threw my eyes and into my brain then jiggle them about!

"Somewhat happier news is to be had from Belgium where a "..prosecutor yesterday recommended that the Church of Scientology stand trial for fraud and extortion, following a 10-year investigation that concluded the US-based group should be labeled a criminal organization." Naturally the cult is crying out about persecution but even a cursory look at the history of Hubbard's pulp SF "religion" shows a long trail of highly questionable practices. The only surprise about the news is that it came from Belgium rather than Germany, a country which has long been suspicious of the organization as the recent fuss over the tiny but perfectly-formed Tom Cruise's location work there shows. To learn more about Scientology and its methods than they would like you to know see Operation Clambake. And should you chance to meet one of these Scientologists be sure ask them about Lisa McPherson."