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You would have a responsibilityto serve your nation.

Whether that service takes the form of serving in combat, serving in the civilian sector, or loudly proclaiming the error of the nation to help them get on the right path, I wouldevaluate according to circumstances.

I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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Ironically, I just posted this in another thread:

"Anyhow, my "civic duty" is sitting here with my AK, a couple mags, and a nice big crate of ammo. When the enemy finally invades, I'll be here waiting for them. Anyone who feels a citizen somehow owes the government more than that can kiss my ass."

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imperialism2024 wrote:

Ironically, I just posted this in another thread:

"Anyhow, my "civic duty" is sitting here with my AK, a couple mags, and a nice big crate of ammo. When the enemy finally invades, I'll be here waiting for them. Anyone who feels a citizen somehow owes the government more than that can kiss my ass."

I can certainly understand the viewpoint. And you are absolutely right.

The distinction is between government and nation. Nation is the people, not their government.

I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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I believe Citizen is right when he said "The distinction is between government and nation. Nation is the people, not their government."

When Kennedy gave his inaugural address in 61, the only words I remember him saying was "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country". I don’t believe Kennedy was referring to serving the government, but serving the people of this country.

I believeweas a people, have a responsibility or duty to serveour country in some form or fashion. How you serve or what you do for your country is a matter of personal conviction.

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While I wish everyone would choose to serve in the military, in some way, shape, or form, for at least a short time, I recognize under our way of life, requiring it isn't the best solution.

I believe everyone should do a stint. I'd like to see it happen between high school and college. However, I also recognize that's just my viewpoint. And it has drawbacks - some of the 18-22 year olds would cause more trouble than they're worth to deal with, and I don't want them sullying my military. Having been there for years, I know how much havoc someone can wreak.

If you do choose the military, you have a duty to give it your all, your best, for the period of time you've agreed, though. None of this "Oh, it's not what I thought" and trying to game the system. No "I only joined for the education, not to fight." If you're a conscientious objector, don't join. If you're one of the 2-3 who become such after joining - serve somewhere.

Off my soapbox.

Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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Tess wrote:

While I wish everyone would choose to serve in the military, in some way, shape, or form, for at least a short time, I recognize under our way of life, requiring it isn't the best solution.

I believe everyone should do a stint. I'd like to see it happen between high school and college. However, I also recognize that's just my viewpoint. And it has drawbacks - some of the 18-22 year olds would cause more trouble than they're worth to deal with, and I don't want them sullying my military. Having been there for years, I know how much havoc someone can wreak.

If you do choose the military, you have a duty to give it your all, your best, for the period of time you've agreed, though. None of this "Oh, it's not what I thought" and trying to game the system. No "I only joined for the education, not to fight." If you're a conscientious objector, don't join. If you're one of the 2-3 who become such after joining - serve somewhere.

Off my soapbox.

That is a very good idea in a world where the US military is used as a defensive force to protect from real enemies.

Unfortunately, today the US military is an instrument of foreign policy used to instigate wars, and then fight them when they've been pissed off sufficiently. I'd join in a heartbeat if it was the former idea. But to join now, knowing full well that I'd be immediately sent to Iraq or Afghanistan to fight a threat that we first armed and later invited to go to war, I feel that I would be just as guilty for the unnecessary and economically devastating death and destruction as Mr. Bush and his cadre.

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Imperialism2024-- I couldn't have put it better! I did my time in the green machine-Army- '75 to '77. In '76, everything changed, for the worse. I was there and was directly effected by the changes. It had something to do with the passing of the Privacy Act. "Riders" to the bill changed the military from a combined fighting force to a 9 to 5 job you did, if you felt like it. What the exact riders to the act applying to the military were I don't know. I do know I could write a mini series on the effects I have seen take it's toll. One of them being my decision to request an early out discharge. Which I gratefully recieved as an honorable discharge 60 days later. I was so fed up with what I saw happening I changed my mind about being a "Lifer" and got the hell out! I will support my country and fight FOR MY COUNTRY, but not as a member of the "World Police Force". nuff said

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One theory I heard was that the draft is just the formation of a select militia, calling out the fittest civilians for military service. So under that theory anyone and everyone can be called out, and since to resist being drafted is usually a losing legal battle, well the government thinks we have an obligation to serve.

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I notice quite often on here people love to compare the Israeli laws on carrying of guns yetmany don't seem to thing too much of the mandatory military service required of Israeli citizens. Maybe if all Americans were required to serve in the military then there would not be nearly as much objection to the carrying of guns by the average citizen.

Sitting in your house with an AK waiting for the SHTF is not the same as serving in the military. Just a thought.

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"A nation, as a society, forms a moral person, and every member of it is personally responsible for his society." --Thomas Jefferson

...we have smuggled a word into the dictionary which ought not to be there at all--Self-Sacrifice. It describes a thing which does not exist... We ignore and never mention the Sole Impulse which dictates and compels a man's every act: the imperious necessity of securing his own approval, in every emergency and at all costs.
- What is Man? -Samuel Clemens.

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WhiteFeather: I don't agree with your conception of "self-sacrifice" as being smuggled into anything is right. Normaly I have 3 subjects I leave ALONE, Politics, Marriage, and RELIGION. But in this case, self sacrifice for another is still the highest gift and sacrifice one can make for another and should not be dimished in such a way as to lessen the gift of their life for another. I have known a few in my time and I do not know if I would have the courage to do as they did. I understand the point you are trying to make. I think you could have picked a better example. Jerry

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PT111 wrote:

I notice quite often on here people love to compare the Israeli laws on carrying of guns yetmany don't seem to thing too much of the mandatory military service required of Israeli citizens. Maybe if all Americans were required to serve in the military then there would not be nearly as much objection to the carrying of guns by the average citizen.

Sitting in your house with an AK waiting for the SHTF is not the same as serving in the military. Just a thought.

As for the former, that's also a difference between a defensive military, like Israel has, and a mercenary force, which is what the US has. I doubt there would be an opposition to mandatory military service if this country were surrounded by hostile countries waiting for an opportunity to invade us, especially if there was only one ethnicity in this country with one set of values that almost everyone universally accepted. Even so, there would be sufficient differences that make it an apples-and-oranges situation. Not to mention that, for reasons I won't discuss here out of fear of getting branded an "unAmerican pinko liberal nutjob", it seems to me that military service in the US military does nothing to make someone more qualified to carry a gun and, if anything, has the opposite effect.

As for the latter, I don't advocate people to buy an AK and sit at home with it, obviously. But keeping a few good firearms, practicing frequently, training for combat situations, being prepared at all times, and having a clear mind is at least as beneficial as serving in the US military. Once again, I could go into details, but I'd rather not be denounced as I've described previously.

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Well, I could go on for pages about this subject, having done a lot of thinking and re-thinking about it.

I served in the Corps, and I'll always be proud of it, but I have disillusioned myself from the notion that I was "defending freedom". What I was really doing was carrying out the foreign policy of the federal government, which has precious little to do with the freedom of the individual American citizen. I can't think of a single war we've fought since 1783 that resulted in U.S. citizens having more freedom when it was over, even the ones that were unavoidable.

I personally believed, as do most of the young people who sign up, that I was protecting freedom, so I sleep pretty well knowing I did what I thought was right at the time. Back then, there was still a Soviet Union, and it was widely believed that the purpose of the military was to make sure we didn't get nuked or invaded. I was 18 and naive. Knowing what I know now about what the government uses the military for, I don't think I could join today. There are a lot of dead civilians in foreign countries because of what our leaders use our troops for, and I don't think I could knowingly take part in that.

I am still a Gyrene at heart, of course. If somebody was to actually threaten the U.S. for real, I mean for real, not the BS the Whte House and the media fed us after 9/11, I would have no problem carrying a rifle and wearing the eagle, globe and anchor again. In the meantime, I am part of the unorganized militia and I try to keep up to speed physical and skills-wise accordingly. (In other words, I go to the gym because I hate getting fat and I shoot because it's fun.)

I believe that a free man has to pick and choose what fights he will get into. The notion that you should be compelled to serve even when you know you are being sent on an immoral mission is best left for the drones of the 1940's German army. The ability to make moral judgements and be free to act upon those judgements is a key characteristic of freedom. Thus I oppose a compulsory draft, except maybe in case of a real, no-s**t invasion.

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PT111 wrote:

I notice quite often on here people love to compare the Israeli laws on carrying of guns yetmany don't seem to thing too much of the mandatory military service required of Israeli citizens. Maybe if all Americans were required to serve in the military then there would not be nearly as much objection to the carrying of guns by the average citizen.

Sitting in your house with an AK waiting for the SHTF is not the same as serving in the military. Just a thought.

Yes but when someone does try and invade they have a armed populous with FA weapons, the military will actually loan out indefinitely to the civilians with a pledge of life time training (basicly just promise to practice and use it).

"THIS IS SPARTA!" comes to mind.

do you really wanna face their military then their population armed? only a fool would attempt it.

the guy at home cleaning his AK (why bother ) will fill their role if they need to..

do you really wanna go fight on foreign sole for something you might not even believe in?

i can believe in fighting for my land.. perhaps even leaving to fight on others land.. but when you join the military you loose some rights and one of those rights is to choose when and where you'll fight.. you're told to fight and you do.

being a citizen i can choose to stand where i will.. granted i wont have any cool military gadgets but a hunting rifle with a good scope makes for a nasty sniper, and make no mistake a sniper is one of the most deadly infantry out there.

if someone tries to invade the homeland i will stand up and give it my all.. but until then i would not want to be forced into the military..

i actually have family in the military and im proud of them, honest.. but it is not the life for me.

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Like Tomahawk, I voluntarily served in the USMC for 5 years active duty. I really don't think much of the idea of forcing everyone to serve. Last thing I'd want is to be is next to someone who doesn't want to be there, and forcing someone to fight isn't encouraging 'self-sacrifice'. I supose I like Heinleins idea that if a society won't voluntarily defend itself, it deserves to perish.

I really find objection to this idea when it comes from people who have never served and are well outside the normal 18-25 draft age.

However, if the day ever comes that the chinese paratroopers start landing, I'll willingly show up to when the militia is called or reenlist if the Corps will take me.

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However, if the day ever comes that the chinese paratroopers start landing, I'll willingly show up to when the militia is called or reenlist if the Corps will take me.

I probably would, too. With the caveat that if the opposition has waspknives on their bayonet studs, then VAopencarry can walk point.

I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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imperialism2024 wrote:

PT111 wrote:

I notice quite often on here people love to compare the Israeli laws on carrying of guns yetmany don't seem to thing too much of the mandatory military service required of Israeli citizens. Maybe if all Americans were required to serve in the military then there would not be nearly as much objection to the carrying of guns by the average citizen.

Sitting in your house with an AK waiting for the SHTF is not the same as serving in the military. Just a thought.

(1) As for the former, that's also a difference between a defensive military, like Israel has, and a mercenary force, which is what the US has. I doubt there would be an opposition to mandatory military service if this country were surrounded by hostile countries waiting for an opportunity to invade us, especially if there was only one ethnicity in this country with one set of values that almost everyone universally accepted. Even so, there would be sufficient differences that make it an apples-and-oranges situation. Not to mention that, for reasons I won't discuss here out of fear of getting branded an "unAmerican pinko liberal nutjob", (2) it seems to me that military service in the US military does nothing to make someone more qualified to carry a gun and, if anything, has the opposite effect.

As for the latter, I don't advocate people to buy an AK and sit at home with it, obviously. But keeping a few good firearms, practicing frequently, training for combat situations, being prepared at all times, and having a clear mind is at least as beneficial as serving in the US military. Once again, I could go into details, but I'd rather not be denounced as I've described previously.

1. With all due respect, we are not mercenaries. If you don't like the way we military folk are being used (and many of us don't really like it either), then your problem is with the civilian control of the military. We could, of course, tell the civilian authority to go stuff itself, but historically speaking,nations were that has occured end up in bad condition very quickly.

2. How so? Not trying to stir the pot, just wondering what your reasoning is. I promise not to brand you as an"unAmerican pinko liberal nutjob".

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There is no obligation to serve. In fact, I am not even sure we would want universal service. We need people to be productive and pay taxes to support those that do serve. If everyone was in the military for 2 or 3 years, it would be a huge productivity drain. And a lot of people just are not suitable.

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Any abled bodied person who is not willing to serve this country in the military or though some type of civil service does not deseve to be here. US citizenship is very special and priviliged. Support it or we are going to lose it.