Just a short comment today, after reading some MMORPG news: EVE Online is adding raid dungeons (and yes, they are even *called* dungeons) for 10, 20, and 40 players. Darkfall meanwhile revamped 17 dungeons, added "beginner dungeons" in safe locations to the game, and even introduced daily quests in their latest content patch "expansion".

/snicker

I'm sure I'll get a lot of fans of these games explaining why these new additions are *nothing* like the themepark features of World of Warcraft, and in no way an attempt to increase subscription numbers by imitating features from the market leader.

This is Naithin, but often it seems when I use OpenID it uses my site name rather than set up nickname. (If anyone knows how to fix this, I'm all ears. :P )

Now, as to the meat of the comment..

I think it's a bit simplistic to suggest that adding these features as a style of play somehow means that the games in question as a /whole/ are switching to the Themepark model.

Yes, I know that's not precisely what you said. It certainly seemed implied however.

Note though I say this from the perspective of someone who does consider their main MMO to be WoW, and has done for a while. I've enjoyed aspects of the other games in question too though, so I keep hoping for some magical conglomeration of the 'right' features to make the 'perfect' MMO.

Of course which features the perfect MMO would entail really is quite different for everyone, yet one can't help but to hope, and perhaps even see these moves as a step in the right direction.

How do you even add something like that to a spaceship combat game?They're not adding it, they're revamping the old systems. The mission/dungeon locations are spawned in the middle of nowhere, so unless you know the exact coordinates you're not going to find them or die of old age while trying. And those exact coordinates are usually provided by your agent (read:questgiver) or you can figure them out yourself with some scanning equipment. At least, that's the in-universe explanation. In practice, the mission/dungeon locations simply don't exist until they're spawned. ;-)

On an another note, Eve also has public quests now, and new and improved versions of those are the focus of the next expansion, Incursion. Once in a while, one of the pirate factions (only Sansha at the moment) will attack one of the major empires and players must rush to defend them.

They may call them dungeons, but they are still not instanced and afaik once on of these deadspace pockets spawns (that is once a player warps into one) they appear as a beacon in the overview and any player is able to warp to them. Friendly and hostile. So it still fits EVE and oh wow...you got a hard one 'cause CCP called them dungeons? Bitter much?

I would call them public quests instead of raids, because of the lack of instancing.

afaik once on of these deadspace pockets spawns (that is once a player warps into one) they appear as a beacon in the overview and any player is able to warp to them. Friendly and hostile.

I find that hard to believe. How would you prevent more than 40 players entering a 40-man "raid dungeon" if that were the case?

Anyway, I actually like these ideas, and think they are making these games more attractive. I just find it funny how people who previously condemned that sort of carebear themepark PvE features in WoW now have to find various excuses to justify that this isn't a carebear themepark PvE feature if you put it into a sandbox PvP game.

They've never said that they would prevent having more than 5/10/40 people in there at once. All they've said is that they are balancing the difficulty and potential rewards around an assumption of having those numbers.

I find that hard to believe. How would you prevent more than 40 players entering a 40-man "raid dungeon" if that were the case?

You don't. They are recommend for 40 ppl. But like always in EVE you don't have to stick to the recommendations, you are free to bring more or less ppl. Althought this is a guesstimation from me. Have to wait for the next Incursion Devblog to get further information.

I suppose I'd better chime in here, although you can probably guess what I'm going to say :P

PvE content in EVE has always been called dungeons. This includes Mission deadspace and exploration sites. Its not a term that has come into common use among the players as much though because well, its space. How can you have a dungeon in space?

Its a way of describing something in terms that are easily understood by people who don't necessarily play EVE. The risk of course is that people who do use the term a lot in their respective games will misunderstand and apply their understanding of the term to EVE, which is a mistake.

Unless you plan on taking part in the current round of testing of this new feature, or come back to EVE and try them for yourself when the Incursion expansion drops in December. I would refrain from comparing EVE 'Dungeons' to WoW Dungeons. I'm certainly going to do so, simply because I don't have enough experience of WoW dungeons.

Also, a resolutely sandbox game like EVE adding a feature that is superficially similar to a feature in WoW, does in no way mean that EVE (and by inference all sandbox games) are 'going themepark'. Thats a deductive leap that makes no sense.

"Its a way of describing something in terms that are easily understood by people who don't necessarily play EVE. The risk of course is that people who do use the term a lot in their respective games will misunderstand and apply their understanding of the term to EVE, which is a mistake."

There is no misunderstanding, because there isn't just that word "dungeon", but the complete developer's blog entry describing the feature. There is simply no way in which this new feature of EVE can be described as anything other than

B) Well...like i said, i'll wait for the next Devblog on that subject to see how much "Themepark" it will be when it hits TQ. When they do it the EVE-way™ then it won't be themepark and you will be able to go in there with as many ppl as you like, you will be able to scan it down and it will be awesome. If they do it the other way it may just be a mainstream themepark gimmick.

"I just find it funny how people who previously condemned that sort of carebear themepark ... now have to find various excuses to justify that this isn't a carebear themepark."

Who says they have to? I don't like PvP, but I play WoW. Do I have to justify now that I don't like PvP? No, I just don't do PvP. I'm sure the people who are overly critical of the "carebear themepark" will likely be just as critical of it in this game and avoid it.

If they are putting this there just to throw other MMO players a bone, then it's silly. They cater to a certain crowd and should continue to do so.

Dungeons are not copyrighted property of WoW. Actually, the first RPG game of all time is called DUNGEONS and Dragons. And I believe nearly every MMORPG before and after WoW has had Dungeons but I might be wrong.

If this is true, then Darkfall and Eve are missing an important point. Raiding is itself not popular -- Rewards are popular.

Raiding is simply where the rewards are in most MMOs. If there are no worthwhile rewards , people don't do raids. Naxx,Ulduar, BT, MC, all sit empty with the occasional achievement run notwithstanding. Even hardcore guilds are in holding patterns with ICC now since they know the expansion will eclipse their efforts.

At risk of feeding the troll I am going to offer the opinion that it is a good move for Darkfall because I think a pvp focussed game actually benefits strongly from a healthy pve sub-community. I am less sure about EVE's dungeons because of the difficulty of balancing risk versus reward in a game where permanent item loss is such a feature. CCP tried something similar already with level 5 missions - challenging group pve encounters that gave epic loot rewards. They are not very popular because many players feel the risk isn't worth the reward.

Since i don't play Darkfall i can only speak for EVE. There will be rewards for Incursions. First there will be a lot of ISK involved and second there are hints that a BPO for a rare faction mothership may drop from special "Boss" NPCs.

There are other rewards out there besides purple bind on pickup stuff.

I don't think he needs to. I can't talk for Eve but dungeons were already part of Darkfall and Av has revamped them and add some more. I don't think dungeons are equal to raiding (as it's usually understood) neither raiding has to be equal to themepark. Tobold was not very thorough on this one.

Yep, no difference what-so-ever between a private instance dungeon where the mobs drop the best loot in the game and you farm the same way every...single...week and what Darkfall has done. None at all. Oh, and wow invented dungeons, so if you have dungeons you are copying wow.

CCP has long annoyed me by using the word "dungeon" to describe some of their staged PvE content. I thought they had gotten past that and started calling these areas names more in line with a space theme... but there is that damn word again.

As for Darkfall and daily quests... I can only echo Nelson Muntz, "Haw-Haa!"

CCP are Icelanders, aren't they? Maybe "dungeon" is the nearest equivalent in English to whatever Icelandic word they actually use amongst themselves. Or maybe they just figure it's one that all their players from around the world will understand.

Other than that, any time any MMO adds or expands raiding it's bad news in my book.

Isn't the inverse square law amazing? The closer and closer you bring together "any statement that can be construed as negative by somebody" and "EVE", the more hits and replies you will get.

The laws of the universe at work.

On topic, I really wish that all MMO players could get along and enjoy the mutual "copying" of ideas amongst each other, every company taking part in the capitalistic endeavor of offering the best experience by taking good ideas and making them better to their base. And we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya and enjoy our respective games, not care about the games we don't play, and...be happy.

On a sidenote: CCP is introducing Microtransactions to EVE in the upcoming patch. You will be able to remap your attributes by using a PLEY (usually used to extend your sub for 30 days.) I guess this is only the first step to a whole shitload of moneymaking "awesomeness".

Bad style, CCP. Either subscription or microtransactions, i won't take it both.