PMQs is PMQs and is the opportunity for Parliament to try and hold the Prime Minister to account. There is no way that should be aborted because Blackford wants an immediate vote.

Blackford could have requested an emergency debate to follow PMQs and almost certainly would have got it, but instead we get a publicity stunt, much like the post-election stuff with the clapping and sitting in the official Opposition spaces. Stuff that makes the TV news but glosses over a lack of policy detail.

Lame, desperate, pitiful, embarrassing. Take your pick to describe yesterday's stunt. For two years now the SNP have been pulling out all the stops to kickstart some momentum for a new independence vote based around Brexit. The fact that the Brexit vote in itself didn't spark their hoped-for surge in support should have given them pause for thought, but Sturgeon nevertheless ploughed ahead with a timetable for a new referendum only to see it backfire with a cull of SNP MPs at last year's general election. This constant 'power grab' mantra has gained no traction with the electorate no matter how much they try to flog it, basically because it ain't worth getting so worked up about and most folk are now so heart sick of Brexit they just want to see it dragged over the line so we can all move on.

Lame, desperate, pitiful, embarrassing. Take your pick to describe yesterday's stunt. For two years now the SNP have been pulling out all the stops to kickstart some momentum for a new independence vote based around Brexit. The fact that the Brexit vote in itself didn't spark their hoped-for surge in support should have given them pause for thought, but Sturgeon nevertheless ploughed ahead with a timetable for a new referendum only to see it backfire with a cull of SNP MPs at last year's general election. This constant 'power grab' mantra has gained no traction with the electorate no matter how much they try to flog it, basically because it ain't worth getting so worked up about and most folk are now so heart sick of Brexit they just want to see it dragged over the line so we can all move on.

Most people I know that I've spoken to on the subject (both Yes and No on Indy) would gladly see Brexit fail. I'd personally be delighted to see the UK continue as an EU member even though I think it would put Indy off for a few years at least.

Yeah, so for starters, you still can’t answer the point that borders are rather arbitrary and pretty much meaningless - unless you choose to make a big deal out of them?

People’s voices are heard and an independent Scotland doesn’t make that more likely. There is a devolved parliament and there are local authorities, both carrying more influence in the day-to-day life of people than Westminster does. Believe me, the actions of my council and Holyrood have a much bigger impact on me than that of London.

But that goes against the nationalist trope of being downtrodden and the victim, doesn’t it?

You see, the strange thing is that if Brexit does go ahead and Scotland could get assurances that they could re-enter the EU within a short term time scale I'd genuinely be more likely to vote yes on a second referendum as it's economic suicide to leave the EU in the way that we're seeming to do. My job like thousands of others would be heavily impacted by the lack of frictionless trade between borders on the continent. I actually campaigned for the no vote first time around as I felt that the left of centre case was stronger to remain in the UK than to leave.

However the way that the SNP and quite frankly the "Yes" campaign held themselves the first time around would make it a very difficult thing for me to do and may just even put me off the whole idea. I find the victim mantra being carried out frankly embarrassing and the walkout in PMQ's yesterday was childish and petulant and certainly doesn't represent their constituents. It's "I'm taking my ball home with me, nyah nyah" territory.

Whether it's article 50 being revoked or an independent Scotland, if there was to be a second referendum I'd be voting for the side that would more likely see us in the European Union, with my fingers crossed that a yes vote would do to the SNP what the Brexit referendum did to UKIP.

Do you think your security can keep you in purity, you will not shake us off above or below. Scottish friction, Scottish fiction

Lame, desperate, pitiful, embarrassing. Take your pick to describe yesterday's stunt. For two years now the SNP have been pulling out all the stops to kickstart some momentum for a new independence vote based around Brexit. The fact that the Brexit vote in itself didn't spark their hoped-for surge in support should have given them pause for thought, but Sturgeon nevertheless ploughed ahead with a timetable for a new referendum only to see it backfire with a cull of SNP MPs at last year's general election. This constant 'power grab' mantra has gained no traction with the electorate no matter how much they try to flog it, basically because it ain't worth getting so worked up about and most folk are now so heart sick of Brexit they just want to see it dragged over the line so we can all move on.

You're talking about the blatant undermining of our parliament by the Tories, yeah?

What should the SNP reps have done instead? Sat down and shut-up like good boys while the conservatives and their chums walk all over them like they're used to, with even the speaker willing to ignore the rules of parliament to get it done.

Just let the Tories get away with what they want, because any reaction or fightback is just the SNP trying to push independence. It's pathetic, and happened for too long. The sad thing is so many people will have the same attitude in which their blind contempt for the SNP will let the Tories carry-on as they always have.

You're talking about the blatant undermining of our parliament by the Tories, yeah?

What should the SNP reps have done instead? Sat down and shut-up like good boys while the conservatives and their chums walk all over them like they're used to, with even the speaker willing to ignore the rules of parliament to get it done.

Just let the Tories get away with what they want, because any reaction or fightback is just the SNP trying to push independence. It's pathetic, and happened for too long. The sad thing is so many people will have the same attitude in which their blind contempt for the SNP will let the Tories carry-on as they always have.

To be fair, GBY is actually a Tory so he's hardly going to complain about any of that.

You're talking about the blatant undermining of our parliament by the Tories, yeah?

What should the SNP reps have done instead? Sat down and shut-up like good boys while the conservatives and their chums walk all over them like they're used to, with even the speaker willing to ignore the rules of parliament to get it done.

Just let the Tories get away with what they want, because any reaction or fightback is just the SNP trying to push independence. It's pathetic, and happened for too long. The sad thing is so many people will have the same attitude in which their blind contempt for the SNP will let the Tories carry-on as they always have.

It kind of sums up folk like GB, when they stay silent when the bedroom tax, disability cuts, and the rape clause are introduced by the party he supports, he then gets all hot under the collar when people want a say on the devolution settlement.

What I don't understand is the loathing of independence by some. If we had it, we would have the party & government we, as a nation, would want. Not one forced on us by others. As has been pointed out in the past, if we achieve independence the SNP will become irrelevant and voters will more than likely filter back to their original main parties.
We must be the only country in history that rejected a free offer to control our own destiny. This still totally baffles me.

What I don't understand is the loathing of independence by some. If we had it, we would have the party & government we, as a nation, would want. Not one forced on us by others. As has been pointed out in the past, if we achieve independence the SNP will become irrelevant and voters will more than likely filter back to their original main parties.
We must be the only country in history that rejected a free offer to control our own destiny. This still totally baffles me.

You are talking about No voters with a strong Scottish identity, only a small part of the total. I think this group is made up of those who think independence will either be a disaster because they are natural pessimists/realists (delete to taste) and those who think it will put their personal financial security at risk. (Both valid concerns btw, I'm not trying to say otherwise).

The 55% contains other groups as well though: people whose primary identity is from another part of the UK; Scots who are primarily British and whose allegiance is to the British state; people who are from outwith the UK altogether and don't really care ... oh and Mibbes Aye and friends, the vanishing breed humming the Internazionale.

You are talking about No voters with a strong Scottish identity, only a small part of the total. I think this group is made up of those who think independence will either be a disaster because they are natural pessimists/realists (delete to taste) and those who think it will put their personal financial security at risk. (Both valid concerns btw, I'm not trying to say otherwise).

The 55% contains other groups as well though: people whose primary identity is from another part of the UK; Scots who are primarily British and whose allegiance is to the British state; people who are from outwith the UK altogether and don't really care ... oh and Mibbes Aye and friends, the vanishing breed humming the Internazionale.

The bit in bold. A lot of those, in my experience, have connections to the armed forces. Others are to be found in processions in a months time.

#Persevered
Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

It kind of sums up folk like GB, when they stay silent when the bedroom tax, disability cuts, and the rape clause are introduced by the party he supports, he then gets all hot under the collar when people want a say on the devolution settlement.

You are talking about No voters with a strong Scottish identity, only a small part of the total. I think this group is made up of those who think independence will either be a disaster because they are natural pessimists/realists (delete to taste) and those who think it will put their personal financial security at risk. (Both valid concerns btw, I'm not trying to say otherwise).

The 55% contains other groups as well though: people whose primary identity is from another part of the UK; Scots who are primarily British and whose allegiance is to the British state; people who are from outwith the UK altogether and don't really care ... oh and Mibbes Aye and friends, the vanishing breed humming the Internazionale.

I'm not directing this at anyone on here but going by people I know, I think there is a significant number of people who took the No stance from an early stage, without being able to present a reason (you know the "Trust me it just won't work" type) and will now not backtrack on that.

I've seen a few move over in light of changing circumstances, but only a few. As I say, some just use the SNP/Nationlist jibes as their get-out as so many of the other pedalled arguments are dying out... often at the hands of those who created the reasons in the first place

Don't get me wrong - plenty of people have their reasons.. I just think there's also a big number of those who do not.

Yep, both of those. Plus there are some like my own Mother who grew up in WW2 or its aftermath when I think there was a genuine "all in this together" Britishness.

That's fair enough. I can fully understand her feeling that way. What annoys me about the whole Indy thing is the wide idea that we would break away from the rest of the UK in everything. The reality, IMO, is that nothing much would change (ignoring the Brexit problem for a minute). Life would go an more or less the way it is now. The only difference would be our finances and the distribution of them would be spread out differently. We would certainly be treated with a lot more respect from WM than we are just now for sure.

This is definitely not an ideal time for Indy2 however, after yesterday's performance in the HoC, I think the government are actually forcing the Indy movement's hand (whether intentionally or not, I don't know).

Yesterday they made it very plain that they regard Scotland as servile and insignificant. If we have Indy2 and lose, what will we have lost? We'll still be treated as servile and insignificant. If we win................????

Lame, desperate, pitiful, embarrassing. Take your pick to describe yesterday's stunt. For two years now the SNP have been pulling out all the stops to kickstart some momentum for a new independence vote based around Brexit. The fact that the Brexit vote in itself didn't spark their hoped-for surge in support should have given them pause for thought, but Sturgeon nevertheless ploughed ahead with a timetable for a new referendum only to see it backfire with a cull of SNP MPs at last year's general election. This constant 'power grab' mantra has gained no traction with the electorate no matter how much they try to flog it, basically because it ain't worth getting so worked up about and most folk are now so heart sick of Brexit they just want to see it dragged over the line so we can all move on.

Well I've joined the SNP today because of Brexit as I'm angry at potentially losing my EU citizenship, all because of a p1ssing contest between Johnson and Cameron. I certainly don't want to "see 'it' dragged over the line".

Well I've joined the SNP today because of Brexit as I'm angry at potentially losing my EU citizenship, all because of a p1ssing contest between Johnson and Cameron. I certainly don't want to "see 'it' dragged over the line".

[QUOTE=snooky;5430924]That's fair enough. I can fully understand her feeling that way. What annoys me about the whole Indy thing is the wide idea that we would break away from the rest of the UK in everything. The reality, IMO, is that nothing much would change (ignoring the Brexit problem for a minute). Life would go an more or less the way it is now. The only difference would be our finances and the distribution of them would be spread out differently. We would certainly be treated with a lot more respect from WM than we are just now for sure.

This is definitely not an ideal time for Indy2 however, after yesterday's performance in the HoC, I think the government are actually forcing the Indy movement's hand (whether intentionally or not, I don't know).

Yesterday they made it very plain that they regard Scotland as servile and insignificant. If we have Indy2 and lose, what will we have lost? We'll still be treated as servile and insignificant. If we win................????[/QUOTE]

Decades of austerity?
A divided nation?
Currency Issues?
No Longer a member of the UK single market & No longer part of the EU?
Reliant on huge numbers of immigration and offering them tax cuts whilst the people already here face tax rises - creating more resentment with this small nation.
No longer a member or Nato
huge debts with no lender of last resort.
Begging the EU for anything and everything - like the SNP have already done, grovel and beg in front of the EU.

What I don't understand is the loathing of independence by some. If we had it, we would have the party & government we, as a nation, would want. Not one forced on us by others. As has been pointed out in the past, if we achieve independence the SNP will become irrelevant and voters will more than likely filter back to their original main parties.
We must be the only country in history that rejected a free offer to control our own destiny. This still totally baffles me.

Itís really quite simple. Indy or not there is no concept of a nation getting the government it wants...there will still be a large chunk of voters who would have voted for the party that is not in power.

So of I was a Labour voter and the SNP get into power nothing changes...I have a government in charge that has been forced on me by Ďothersí.

I would suggest Quebec might also qualify on the Ďrejected a free offerí camp. Itís also rather disingenuous to suggest Indy is a free offer...as the growth commission has shown there are very significant hurdles, risks and dangers associated with it and many folk have simply decided itís, on the balance of probabilities, is just not worth it.

Finally the loathing might come from the fact, repeated ad-nauseam, that the very people itís pertaining to represent have already voted on it and said No?

Decades of austerity?
A divided nation?
Currency Issues?
No Longer a member of the UK single market & No longer part of the EU?
Reliant on huge numbers of immigration and offering them tax cuts whilst the people already here face tax rises - creating more resentment with this small nation.
No longer a member or Nato
huge debts with no lender of last resort.
Begging the EU for anything and everything - like the SNP have already done, grovel and beg in front of the EU.

Still least that's the English telt

But apart from that what has Westminster ever done for us?

#Persevered
Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

No Longer a member of the UK single market & No longer part of the EU? Aye?

Reliant on huge numbers of immigration and offering them tax cuts whilst the people already here face tax rises - creating more resentment with this small nation. haha using one of the reasons we don't want to be part of what's going on right now (intolerance towards immigrants) won't wash.
Begging the EU for anything and everything - like the SNP have already done, grovel and beg in front of the EU. Ahhh.. you prefer us to beg the Tories and go on being ignored?
Still least that's the English telt - Sums up your argument perfectly.