Stratics VeteranCampaign Supporter

I just read some of those Steam posts for the first time. Thanks for the link. It sounds to me like a lot of those gamers complaining about UO don't wanna play unless they can be the top dog and they're mad because the UO economy and the scripters and so forth won't let them be the top dog so now they're just not gonna play at all because they can't be the top dog. I guess I enjoy UO because being top dog was never my goal. I'm always setting and achieving goals, and that's what keeps me playing, but being the uber player that everyone else bows down to was never one of them. Sorry if I didn't address the original question of this post, but it seemed to relate to Steam.

The thing with the people who post that stuff is, they want free for all PvP. All of the private shards they're advertising are all T2A rulesets, before Trammel, before AoS. Back when everyone rolled a Hally Mage and just killed people.

I've played on a few private shards. It's all the same. Go to Despise or Covetous to train your weapon skills. A blue runs in and stares at you. If you were smart, you'd leave, otherwise an army of reds would come pouring in to gank you. You can't get anything done because you're either always being killed or you're having to always run out. It's not really fun when A: It takes forever to train your skills anyway, unless you're in a dungeon; and B: Utilizing the Quick Dungeon Skill Gain system is next to impossible when you're having to leave/get killed every 10 minutes.

Yadd is spot on with his comment about people wanting to be the top dog. I can assure you that the people making these posts are the same people who use a blue to scout to see if there's an easy kill.

It's also a case of, what I like to call, Gaming Terrorism. A group of players make it their one goal to kill the game, whether it be by exploiting and causing other people to quit(GoonSquad in Eve Online) or by making posts on the official forums(or even in game) expressing their hatred for the game, advising new players to not even bother. Ultimately the game begins losing subscriptions, thus losing money for the developers. I've actually watched a few good MMO's die because of Gaming Terrorists. For the life of me, I will never understand the infatuation with trying to destroy something that someone, or a group of people, worked hard on and put a lot of money and effort into.

These people on Steam are clearly trying to prevent new people from playing UO. We get it, Trammel was added, and it hurt you bad. We get it, changes have been made to the game we all loved, and you're too immature to understand that things change, so you're going to be bitter for the rest of your life. There's a 14 day trial for a reason. So people can try it and see if it's something they like, but a lot of people who see UO on Steam probably will never try it now.

As for me, I hope it is released on Steam. And I hope it gives a much needed influx of new players.
It has got some more exposure as of late being green lit.
I have noticed a few more people coming in to play on my home shard as of late.
I agree with Kyl, about running around with a naked mage character packing a halley just
castin ebolts, explosions and whackin at people. Back then, it was fun for about a month,
Then it got boring. But theres still a few folks out there posting on steam and here every now and again
about how great that was, and the game is not any good anymore because they cant do that anymore on all facetts in the game. And if you really take a good look at the posts, it is only a handful. Same people
posting it over and over again. Since Trammel has been in the game over 14 of the almost 17 years the game has been here, looks like theyed got used to it by now lol. If Trammel hadn't came about, and the game did not grow to give players alternate play styles, and fresh things to do, the game would have died 10 years ago.
Hopefully if the steam thing is handled right, it will be a good thing for the game.

To tell you the truth I am close to a hardcore sandbox gamer since I play with breaks every now and then UO, EVE, Perpetuum, Mortal Online and Age of Wushu. You may also notice than none is construction-based sandbox, but all are with pvp enabled in one form or another aka I do like it, as long as its not griefing, and I dont like to PVP every day, I like variety of things.
Sandboxes including UO are meant to serve a variety of gameplays and even permit a player do anything depending on mood. To get to my point what Trammel hurts those who complain is this:
In a completely forced open world pvp an incompetent pvper can kill defenceless crafters/miners and low lvl newbies for his amusement. When that happens to one person from just 10 people everyday(especially if full loot is there) can lead easily even hardskinned newcomers to quit which gradually hurts the population of a server. Would people stop if they saw its hurting their game? No. There is an active example of this, Mortal Online, an FPS view sandbox was inspired from the ruleset that existed pre-Trammel on UO. To make it short, full loot, open world pvp, no real safe zones and being able to be killed starting from Tutorial. And if newbies complained on it? They would get a lot of ironic treatment on help chat. The result is that game 2 years now lowers population bit by bit.
Steam can help a game grow really, will give you the example of Perpetuum, an indie Sandbox game, had 10-20 people online at all times, after steam it went up to 600 and finally stabilized around 200+ daily. For a single server game a good and lively amount.

As a bonus will show you what kind of gamers don't like safe places like trammel on sandboxes, the following text is part of Mortal Online forums, a player named TindremA by the forum name thetrueTindremA if you want to check on their forums:

"Has thieving even been talked about? That's definitely "griefing" but within the rules of the game. You just bought that 50g, 100g, 2000g? Yoink! "Sucka! UMAD SON?"

Now, thieving has system of controls and is therefore deemed "not-griefing" or "intentional griefing sponsored by SV" however you want to look at it. But what's worse, grabbing that 4g from a GY-Hero who just cashed in his dead-heads--and then running to the rooftops with an elf with more dex and speed than God--or sniping his donkey from same rooftop?
Both scenarios cause rage and tears. Both are legal. Both thief and assassin get guard wacked, often.

Maybe spend that 1 silver and put your mounts away and that way it won't be a problem.

I was attracted to MO because I could come and grief.
I subscribe, now on two accounts, because I enjoy griefing and making people look stupid because it makes me feel better.
I am not a moral person and I don't care what you think about that.
I will stop playing when I cannot grief.

Tindrema

As for the reason I was 72 hour banned, and then 7 day banned, it was for NOT griefing. More out of boredom. Nothing to spend my gold on. AND really just a sense of curiosity and adventure. Over-sensitive gms might lock this thread if I say what I did, so I won't."

And I assure you Mortal Online uses pre-trammel ruleset, its such people it attracts the most if anyone wants to see the link to the whole posting there its here:

Stratics VeteranCampaign Supporter

I was attracted to MO because I could come and grief.
I subscribe, now on two accounts, because I enjoy griefing and making people look stupid because it makes me feel better.
I am not a moral person and I don't care what you think about that.
I will stop playing when I cannot grief.
Tindrema

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Lol, is this person expressing their RP persona or their real self? I guess the results are the same.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Children...
This attitude of kill for killing sake is almost from day one of UO's opening.
I have had the horror of knowing of much of this area from my years on mnay shards here in UO.
I have seen such heartless, mean, obnoxious, and totaly hurtfull person I met in game turned out to be a young lady of 15.
She made a character so vile and hatefull that the whole shard loathed this person.
No one knew that is was a girl, not by character name... as it was a male character.
This creature was so vicious to any who crossed her path.
I was both victim and sort of her captor.
I was able to talk to her and then her mom...
You see the GM's were hot on her trail and ready to perma ban the account and press charged on her.
She was REAL bad. (I wont get into her problems)
This is just the tip of the people who abuse the game..
Some I know of are the sweetest people in RL, but let them enter UO....
It's like a switch went off and this other person came out... a total horror to any unwarry to cross their path.
I have read alot of negative on many games including UO, WoW, Eve, EQ, and tons of others to the point that the subs dropped through the floor.
If they cant rule over you they will kill you in other ways...
It's sad.

Children...
This attitude of kill for killing sake is almost from day one of UO's opening.
I have had the horror of knowing of much of this area from my years on mnay shards here in UO.
I have seen such heartless, mean, obnoxious, and totaly hurtfull person I met in game turned out to be a young lady of 15.
She made a character so vile and hatefull that the whole shard loathed this person.
No one knew that is was a girl, not by character name... as it was a male character.
This creature was so vicious to any who crossed her path.
I was both victim and sort of her captor.
I was able to talk to her and then her mom...
You see the GM's were hot on her trail and ready to perma ban the account and press charged on her.
She was REAL bad. (I wont get into her problems)
This is just the tip of the people who abuse the game..
Some I know of are the sweetest people in RL, but let them enter UO....
It's like a switch went off and this other person came out... a total horror to any unwarry to cross their path.
I have read alot of negative on many games including UO, WoW, Eve, EQ, and tons of others to the point that the subs dropped through the floor.
If they cant rule over you they will kill you in other ways...
It's sad.

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But that's whats great about UO. You can be a real nice person in your day job and then come on and play UO and be a real griefer. Those who choose to play as a griefer have few in game friends. That's what makes a sandbox game. I feel that UO is one of the very few games that emulate real life. People are not always nice in real life and its going to be the same in UO.

Stratics VeteranCampaign Supporter

Oh, yes, we understand that it's some people's game to cause chaos and anarchy, and then it becomes our game to find a way to deal with them, but some of us don't want to have to play that game very often, because it distracts us from the real game.

Stratics Veteran

But that's whats great about UO. You can be a real nice person in your day job and then come on and play UO and be a real griefer. Those who choose to play as a griefer have few in game friends. That's what makes a sandbox game. I feel that UO is one of the very few games that emulate real life. People are not always nice in real life and its going to be the same in UO.

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I just don't buy this. Never have. Not in the seventeen years I've been playing MMOs. If you're ****ty to people, then you're ****ty to people. If you can't comprehend what's behind the avatar and the pixels and the other person's computer, then you're probably sociopathic, have no empathy, and social games are the last place you should be. I know too many people who come here to get AWAY from real life. People who use social games as therapy. People who suffer chronic pain and other debilitating illnesses. Finally, if you're nice to peoples faces but you're a **** to them from miles away in a video game, you're a coward. Not only are you a coward, but you're probably not genuine and authentic in your real life, and I guess we Britannians (or New Edenites, or whoever) just have to bear the weight of the self-loathing that you can't keep to yourself or get help for.

I just don't buy this. Never have. Not in the seventeen years I've been playing MMOs. If you're ****** to people, then you're ****** to people. If you can't comprehend what's behind the avatar and the pixels and the other person's computer, then you're probably sociopathic, have no empathy, and social games are the last place you should be. I know too many people who come here to get AWAY from real life. People who use social games as therapy. People who suffer chronic pain and other debilitating illnesses. Finally, if you're nice to peoples faces but you're a **** to them from miles away in a video game, you're a coward. Not only are you a coward, but you're probably not genuine and authentic in your real life, and I guess we Britannians (or New Edenites, or whoever) just have to bear the weight of the self-loathing that you can't keep to yourself or get help for.

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Its not about how others act or how other people choose to behave its how you choose to deal with it that counts.

Stratics Veteran

Its not about how others act or how other people choose to behave its how you choose to deal with it that counts.

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Nice response. You sound like you've earned your t-shirt with arguments like that. Plodding away through awful experiences (and people) makes decent folk stronger, sure. The silver lining is when they stand tall. But that's not much of a defense for being awful to people. They'll have plenty of horrible experiences on their own, without awful people trying to make sure that even video games can't be the refuge they were hoping for on any given day. And YOU never know what they're already plodding through on any given day. Like the chronic pain patients mentioned above. They have to be stronger than you can imagine, unless you know what that's like. But the days they need a refuge might not be their strongest days, and there is a reason many of those people go to sandbox games; building and crafting keeps their minds busy and off the pain. If you're stealing all their stuff and harassing them about it in order to cause them added stress, you're actually making the world a worse place. So next time you wish the world was a better place, think about that.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

James ...
While I do see what your saying I must also interject a thought to you on this very idea.
Yes griefing was and still is ok to a point. Even Richard Garrott knew and allowed it.
It still had its caviot's to the GM staff on how to deal with it.
There was limits on how far they were allowed to go.
When it came to the point of harrassment the GM's stepped in and wrangled the offending party.
They gave a stern warning about going too far off the mark of game play and out right social harm being done and 3 day suspention.
We have not had the GM's like in the old days around to step in like should be done however.
People should know there are limits even in griefing.
I can see the psycological benifit for those under high stress to need to "take it out on something".
As Spritless pointed out this is just a game.... But to her and some of you who condone the over the top crewlty being done.
It's fine if the character is knowing your only playing out your anger and fustration, and its a one time thing.
BUT... and i use this in a strong point out that there is a REAL PERSON on the other end of that screen of pixels.
Just as involved in the game as you.
I have seen one griefer littererly tear a poor kid apart.
They were of a fragil nature and kind hearted, but the griefer kept at him.
Day after day.
It was like this person hated this one child to the nth degree and set out to hurt them in the most creulest ways you can in game.
You forget sometimes words cut deep, think of how it feels to be told your worthless and you really should kill yourself.
EVERY DAY ......OVER AND OVER.
It was no wonder that young man sat at his computer and tried to kill himself.
I was there and talked to him as a counselor... getting the GM's to listen to what the kitten was saying.
They heard the total object pain this kid was feeling and why.
The GM's worked like mad to trace down his account and info and called the police and rescue agencys in the young persons area.
We were in time.
He survived.
Barely.
Is this what you consider and ok outcome of griefing?
This was caused by another person going overboard without restraint in his anger and fustration and pure creulty.
I am sorry that you need to do this to another "pixel player".
Not everyone is thick skinned or of your mindset.
As children we are taught by our parents to respect others.
We have players from all over the globe...
Those who denounce the game are out to kill off others fun plain and simple by killing of the games.
I would hope the public could see beyond the hate and try what they like in any game market.
They have no idea what they are missing in UO..
It's why I have been here for 17 + years.

Nice response. You sound like you've earned your t-shirt with arguments like that. Plodding away through awful experiences (and people) makes decent folk stronger, sure. The silver lining is when they stand tall. But that's not much of a defense for being awful to people. They'll have plenty of horrible experiences on their own, without awful people trying to make sure that even video games can't be the refuge they were hoping for on any given day. And YOU never know what they're already plodding through on any given day. Like the chronic pain patients mentioned above. They have to be stronger than you can imagine, unless you know what that's like. But the days they need a refuge might not be their strongest days, and there is a reason many of those people go to sandbox games; building and crafting keeps their minds busy and off the pain. If you're stealing all their stuff and harassing them about it in order to cause them added stress, you're actually making the world a worse place. So next time you wish the world was a better place, think about that.

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If a video games gets you so stressed out maybe its not the hobby for you, more so a sandbox type of video game where people can do horrid things to you. But then they can only do horrid thing to you if you let them. If someone is doing their upmost to grief you, move on and do something else for a while. Its that simple. Recal is a powerful spell!

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Yes it is... recall wise and it was a method the GM's in UO would tell the players who had a nasty griefer dogging them in play.
James they pay for use of the game just as the griefer does and while your all gung ho for the game style you need to understand some take great pleasure out of picking 1 target and hounding them to death. I have seen it where one idiot griefer recalled to all the known places to "find" their target of hate for the day.
So lets not go there cupcake.
It's not always the targets fault for the attacks and you damn well know it.
So get off your bloody soap box about how "fair" it is to grief and see the big picture.

Stratics Veteran

Deflect, deflect, deflect. No matter what I say, there's always going to be a counterpoint engineered to make the victim out to be their own perpetrator. You get off scot-free, right? And that's how it is in your own mind, isn't it? You're doing what feels perfectly natural to you, aren't you? The thing is, I believe that you believe what you're saying. I've had this argument many times; griefers, especially those with anti-social/sociopathic personalities can't empathize with people in real life, much less "video game people". Or maybe you're able to get some mileage in real life with people, but you're free to be yourself here, so it all falls apart. There's even a term for this phenomenon now: the online disinhibition effect. It describes why you're the ones who don't belong here, not your victims. New technologies allowing socializing didn't come with social moors attached, so naturally, a bunch of bullies looking for an excuse for their behavior decided that phrases like "it's a game" and "it's not real" would suffice for those social moors. Great plan! Right? Unfortunately, the bullies, never too bright since the dawn of time, had no clue (and never have, since the dawn of time) that social contracts aren't discovered, they're adapted by communities in everyone's best interest for survival and longevity. People who look out for one another fare better than communities in which more people must look out for themselves. It's ironic that more of Ultima Online's players don't or can't fully appreciate the grand experiment they contributed to.

Stratics Veteran

I have gone over and over time and time again the numerous metrics that show how the griefer-centric model, which pre-Trammel UO represented and Fel continues to, is a market failure. People continue to attempt to dispute this using metrics which are flawed quite terribly. Usually it's random message board posts and guild sizes -- metrics that reflect opinion intensity (at best), not how widespread that opinion is. Ultimately, to too many people, of course it's about a misplaced faith in the griefing lifestyle, not about data or metrics.

My fear in this is that some on the UO team either share the griefing mentality or, worse yet, make the critical error of mistaking opinion intensity for opinion popularity. Or mistake the fact that too many otherwise good people turn griefers into folk heroes for those otherwise good people wanting to spend their money and hours playing with griefers.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Well, what is that supposed to mean ? That anything goes because it is a game, perhaps ?

If so, I am sorry, but I have to disagree.....

I think that games also need to have rules, ethics of playing and blah blah. I entirely disagree with the idea that if something is a game then anything may go.....

Perhaps I am wrong in my thinking, but I like to play games that have set boundaries, rules to follow, respect for my fellow players..... I play cards, for example, but I would never even think of cheating when playing cards because hey, "it's only a game"...., I do not think it would be fair towards my fellow card players even if it is just a game...... I do not "have to win" at all costs when playing a game, if I do, playing by the rules, fine, if I don't, fine just as well.....

Yes it is... recall wise and it was a method the GM's in UO would tell the players who had a nasty griefer dogging them in play.
James they pay for use of the game just as the griefer does and while your all gung ho for the game style you need to understand some take great pleasure out of picking 1 target and hounding them to death. I have seen it where one idiot griefer recalled to all the known places to "find" their target of hate for the day.
So lets not go there cupcake.
It's not always the targets fault for the attacks and you damn well know it.
So get off your bloody soap box about how "fair" it is to grief and see the big picture.

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That kind of behaviour will get a griefer banned and its very easy to prove. So that would be an easy end to the griefing. The greatest tool against a griefer is not to care, once they notice their energy is being wasted they soon move on to another target. So it all comes down to how you handle the situation. Recal go do something else for a while if it bothers you so much, else contune on and ignore the griefer.

While I may not have played for the last 18 months, I still have 2 live accounts that are both 16 years old and I have lived through loads of grieing attempts. The golden days of UO were the worst, but there are still some hard core griefers out there. You just got to learn not to let them get under your skin same as in real life.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

No Popps your not.
A recient paper in the psycological news had a not so understood fact.
Humans do better as a whole and advance as a species when they think in group not as a single entity.
Meaning to the layman: You grow and do better when you are a part of a group of people and think as a unit, then as if you went of as a solo person.
The facts are we do much better an ideas grow and become fact and real within a group. Support and peace as a whole flurish.
The paper was backed up by more then one study, and if you really think about it. Its true.
Those children who grew up in a tight social group tended to be better parents, work and talents bloomed, and the mental health and happyness was excedinely higher then the norm.
Social interaction is not enough, bonding over ideas and things in common made it that much more enriching.
We here in the gaming community do this daily.
We hunt, fish, fight and grow asa community in the games we play when those of us group up and work for a goal. I have to agree on the fact when a common grounds trouble pops up we all band together and fight. Look at the EM events as your proof.
People who dont even know eachother cross hel and rez the dead and injured. Hunting and working as a team.
That is not to say that doing ones own thing is not healthy too. But you do get the drift of that fact.
WE grow as team in brain and comfort zone.

Galen and Yadd we know the players who treat the game as their personal anger station and all those in the game as the targets.
No thougth of how the other feels or why they are majorly complaining.
Its lost on them why we just dont get their way of thinking.
It's not us.
Somewhere in the mix a misunderstanding happened and well... this is what we have to work on.
The question is can they handle the limits put down?
It's the social integrity of the game tht must be addressed and the rules then set in stone and obeyed.
Mind you banning someone is not always a good answer to the problem.
Perhaps fines and limits put on the account might.
You have to admit hit someone in the pocketbook and they usualy stop the costly money and time drain making fast.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

That kind of behaviour will get a griefer banned and its very easy to prove. So that would be an easy end to the griefing. The greatest tool against a griefer is not to care, once they notice their energy is being wasted they soon move on to another target. So it all comes down to how you handle the situation. Recal go do something else for a while if it bothers you so much, else contune on and ignore the griefer.

While I may not have played for the last 18 months, I still have 2 live accounts that are both 16 years old and I have lived through loads of grieing attempts. The golden days of UO were the worst, but there are still some hard core griefers out there. You just got to learn not to let them get under your skin same as in real life.

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You are on the right track but wrong train.
Ignore them and no they dont disapear... This I have seen and had done to a freind.
Banning as I said is not the answer but hit the money ether in RL or in Game funds..Limit their access to places.
Make it not worth doing and it stops.
How many would grief if they knew it would make them traped in one facit and litterly out of funds to do much else other then gather supplys to pay off the debit and get free?
Make each infraction cost a few million gold, or it equil in resources..wood ore, ingots, etc to pay it off.
Yes for a short while they mostlikely will aford it but for how long??

You are on the right track but wrong train.
Ignore them and no they dont disapear... This I have seen and had done to a freind.
Banning as I said is not the answer but hit the money ether in RL or in Game funds..Limit their access to places.
Make it not worth doing and it stops.
How many would grief if they knew it would make them traped in one facit and litterly out of funds to do much else other then gather supplys to pay off the debit and get free?

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Quote from a long long time a go, in a galaxy not to far from here...#

As it happens, this is consistent with Garriott's original vision for online gaming. "When we first launched UO, we set out to create a world that supported the evil player as a legitimate role," he says. Outlaws and monsters are simply two different types of carnivores, all part of one continuous organic system. "Players who choose the life of an outlaw," he explains, "essentially become powerful and intelligent monsters - akin to other monsters in the world, but even more sophisticated and interesting, because they're real human players."
This dynamic works, as long as everyone is playing the same game. But what happens when players who think they're attending an online Renaissance Faire find themselves at the mercy of a violent, abusive gang of thugs? In today's Britannia, it's not uncommon to stumble across groups of evil players who talk like Snoop Doggy Dogg, dress like gangstas, and act like rampaging punks.
When Garriott was asked to respond to disillusioned Ultima fans, it was Lord British who answered. Perhaps he was talking as much about all of cyberspace as about Ultima when he gravely proclaimed: "Those who have truly learned the lessons of the Ultima games should cease their complaining, rise to the challenge, and make Britannia into the place they want it to be."

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Quote from a long long time a go, in a galaxy not to far from here...#

As it happens, this is consistent with Garriott's original vision for online gaming. "When we first launched UO, we set out to create a world that supported the evil player as a legitimate role," he says. Outlaws and monsters are simply two different types of carnivores, all part of one continuous organic system. "Players who choose the life of an outlaw," he explains, "essentially become powerful and intelligent monsters - akin to other monsters in the world, but even more sophisticated and interesting, because they're real human players."
This dynamic works, as long as everyone is playing the same game. But what happens when players who think they're attending an online Renaissance Faire find themselves at the mercy of a violent, abusive gang of thugs? In today's Britannia, it's not uncommon to stumble across groups of evil players who talk like Snoop Doggy Dogg, dress like gangstas, and act like rampaging punks.
When Garriott was asked to respond to disillusioned Ultima fans, it was Lord British who answered. Perhaps he was talking as much about all of cyberspace as about Ultima when he gravely proclaimed: "Those who have truly learned the lessons of the Ultima games should cease their complaining, rise to the challenge, and make Britannia into the place they want it to be."

End Quote

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Yes he said that and later said he also saw a need for limits too on said "evil"

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

We all know Evil fights without honor and wins the temp battles by cheating and lies.....
Good had no footing and digs in and wins in the end with wise rule and level head.
Garrott said he expected the towns people to group up and vanquish the "evil" player.
As the game goes changes have made this hard if not impossible to do.
It's one of the main reasons the game has floundered.
Balance was perma distroyed and cant be rebuilt. Hard as we all wish otherwise.
Also Garrott never saw the likes of some of our more "unsavory" element that plagues the games across the board.
They didnt show up on his radar and our social dealings in the real world held them in check... now...
Well lets just say many who prey on the games wouldnt care a rats behind if they hurt someone in RL too by their actions.
To them its become a Me Myself ,and I bit and to hell with the other guy.
Quite honetly if this is how they act and think is ok in a game.
Do I want to do business with this person in RL?
Can I trust them in any dealings?
Moral standards bite.

Well basically the people who complain on Trammel/Felucca are to a huge ratio the griefers who went "out of job", but a big example to them is that even heavily pvp sandboxes take measures one way or another against Griefing. For UO it made pvp optional by having a pvp continent where still PVPers who want a challenge can go, To my knowledge the only sandbox right now in the market that allows griefing is MO(Mortal Online) and so the griefers literally flock in there. According to MO creators their "vision" was Pre AOS UO on a sandbox with first person view but since went a bit out of topic, will say why this is relevant. People on steam who comment in negative ways 90% ask pre-aos rules, but the living example of them(Mortal Online) shows that the only use they serve is please griefers and incompetent pvpers giving them miners and newbies as defenseless targets. Even make standing still people checking their banks as living pinatas since they dont know what is coming while checking.
About griefers as people, it is obvious they aren't interested on making friends. That makes them lose the core of a sandbox game which is the community interaction. They definitely don't really advance to see other aspects of the game either and only thing left to them is the false feeling that they are "good" pvpers, but if they fight an experienced pvpers they cant do much since they learnt killing only targets that CANT defend. Secondly what griefers do to a game? Every new player the first few hours up to few days is their first impression of the game. If a newbie is killed mercilessly upon first hours or days of gaming he/she wont continue the game. Why? Cause they wouldn't see any fun potential in game so early while being killed and maybe even harassed. Few people got the patience to insist while being griefed and its obvious veterans need "new blood" in a game as in new players that are more excited to do things since they try the game first time and therefore create more gameplay for the vets too in the sandbox.
Steam could bring more players or at least motivate some who see the greenlight post to take the trial which sure will be good to making the game more lively

And a note: A person actually nice in RL will be nice online too. Just in RL some people pretend being nice pressing their bad thoughts and finally bursting out their bad side online(due to being virtually faceless in the internet)

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

This thread picked up a little. Before I catch up, I just want to say there is a difference between PKs, thieves, and sociopaths. PKs used to be an event. The EMs we have are good but there is nothing like playing during a time when there were so many people that people were a weapon, where you could watch eight people box a guy in just to make for a swift death. Who else remembers going to Asian shards when US shards went down, and PKing people with brand new characters? Distasteful names I won't mention. Those were the days. Thieves were at their best, in my opinion, during the disarm/last target days, but anytime before was fun as well. Thieves used to have easy pickings because, again, there were so many people, but more so, they used to matter.

Sociopaths, those are the PKs who make it a point to rez-kill anyone and everyone without a reason. We've all rez-killed, I'm sure, but when that's your default? Yeah, that's messed up. They're the ones who use any cheat they can to get an advantage, not to be clever. They're not trapping people in their house with trash can, or gating to a one tile island, they want the massive ego stroke without any of the effort. They know they can get away with cheats, too, which doesn't help (sorry Mesanna, but as long as it remains a problem I have to voice it). They're the thieves who spend a month infiltrating a guild, who spend time gaining the trust of people. They're the bluebies who spam flutes and crap at events, or hide until they can get the last hit on a monster. It's certainly not a Fel-only problem.

The top half, you deal with those by being mature, and trusting friends. The second half, that's the kind that makes "Trammies" quit (or anyone, for that matter). Any game will grow toxic without proper enforcement, and the comments found at Steam are proper, in my opinion. UO is not the game it once was, and that's just how it is. What it is, however, is a game many still enjoy. The problem, as always, is this YouTube page should be integrated on the UO.com website, or likewise, UO should have their own YouTube account. The company has a Facebook page, which, ironically, scares away some of its current playerbase, lol...much like Steam did...and we can see Broadsword trying, a little, to get back out there.

As a company, you have to put yourself in a position to add a voice to social media outlets. Once Broadsword has Steam, they'll have a big victory on their hands. They say no publicity is bad publicity, except, poor reviews will seldom result in success. If you see a product at Amazon.com that's 2 stars out of 5, you're probably going to move on. Honestly, if I am a current gen PVPer, why would I ever play UO? Likewise, how can UO compete in an age in which every other MMO has 3D modeled houses which add a sense of scale to the fantasy? Eh. But exposure through Steam, at the least, keeps the game in a conversation, and I guess that's the point despite all the "bad publicity."

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Steam can help a game grow really, will give you the example of Perpetuum, an indie Sandbox game, had 10-20 people online at all times, after steam it went up to 600 and finally stabilized around 200+ daily. For a single server game a good and lively amount.

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The new Transformers movie made something like, what, $100 million during its opening weekend? I know Perpetuum isn't Transformers, I'm just saying, current gen gamers are much more likely to want to play mechs in a 3D world than bus about in UO ;P.

I will say, though, those robots in Perpetuum look fairly slow moving? I hope the world isn't too big.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

So lets not go there cupcake.
It's not always the targets fault for the attacks and you damn well know it.
So get off your bloody soap box about how "fair" it is to grief and see the big picture.

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/winner haha right track and wrong train, too. hm. I know people who have been stalked by other people, I know people who have infiltrated guilds, I know people who made a habit of dropping harbingers at public events. I once guilded a guy named Robin Hood who, after a few weeks of us suiting him up, tried to PK one of our guildmates, lol.

Stratics Veteran

The top half, you deal with those by being mature, and trusting friends. The second half, that's the kind that makes "Trammies" quit (or anyone, for that matter). Any game will grow toxic without proper enforcement, and the comments found at Steam are proper, in my opinion. UO is not the game it once was, and that's just how it is. What it is, however, is a game many still enjoy. The problem, as always, is this YouTube page should be integrated on the UO.com website, or likewise, UO should have their own YouTube account. The company has a Facebook page, which, ironically, scares away some of its current playerbase, lol...much like Steam did...and we can see Broadsword trying, a little, to get back out there.

As a company, you have to put yourself in a position to add a voice to social media outlets. Once Broadsword has Steam, they'll have a big victory on their hands. They say no publicity is bad publicity, except, poor reviews will seldom result in success. If you see a product at Amazon.com that's 2 stars out of 5, you're probably going to move on. Honestly, if I am a current gen PVPer, why would I ever play UO? Likewise, how can UO compete in an age in which every other MMO has 3D modeled houses which add a sense of scale to the fantasy? Eh. But exposure through Steam, at the least, keeps the game in a conversation, and I guess that's the point despite all the "bad publicity."

Click to expand...

UO could be a great game if broadsword / the devs were openminded to change. most the negativity on the steam page is warranted. it would be foolish of the devs to totally blow off all of the negative comments, because thats legitmately what real players think of subscription UO.

i dont think UO in its current state should be put on steam until some adjustments are made that would make it more inviting to gamers. even the lag / connection issues right now would just turn too many people off.

Hopefully UO will have some improvements and be on steam eventually, but im thinking maybe one to two years away.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

i dont think UO in its current state should be put on steam until some adjustments are made that would make it more inviting to gamers. even the lag / connection issues right now would just turn too many people off.

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I disagree, because things like Mesanna coming out at the last Shard meeting and saying, look, guys, we're trying to fight the cheaters...I would rather see Broadsword get as much media access as they can, and talk about things. Like, if those Shard meetings were up on the (eventual) UO Steam page, that would be pretty cool, you know?

Yes that is a problem, most greenlight pages get updated by announcements etc on their steam page, but BS doesn't seem to check often so far. As for Perpetuum it is like EVE with mechs and yes you got to walk a lot, its a good game but not as good as EVE nor as UO, but high potential. Will also tell you sandbox playing communities in general are the least biased towards graphs from nowadays gamers, they more like features which are the "tools" to do activities in a sandbox. Keep in mind 3D graphs aren't necessarily better looking

Stratics Veteran

A lot of points to respond to there G.V.P., but I want to clear up a big misunderstanding about Steam. Retro is big on Steam. I'm not talking about old games. I'm talking about new games made to look and feel retro. I've been bringing this up on these forums for a few years now. And the retro craze is only getting bigger. Retro metroidvanias, dungeon crawlers, rogue-likes, heck there are even a few pixel-based MMOs on there that just came out in recent years. They look terrible compared to UO. They have a fraction of UO's content, customization, and features. People who don't know any better love them. Their programmers basically used Steam as their "publisher" and became millionaires overnight. Retro RPGs with a twist are extremely popular: simple-looking RPGs with deep crafting and customization. And what is the biggest, most expansive retro dungeon-crawler of them all, with the most twists? That's right. Ultima Online.

But yeah, Broadsword is absolutely gonna have to step up to the plate for community representation; so are the fans of the game here. Even then, we'll both have an uphill battle: games on Steam generally live or die by Metacritic scores and user reviews. And its Metacritic score is low--that's not gonna change. Steam is Ultima Online's best chance at banking big again, but it only stands a chance of happening if everyone here is willing to write positive reviews and upvote everyone else's positive reviews. Negative reviews will destroy the game's chance at banking, and they'll primarily be written in order to lure players to unofficial shards. And if any of you support that negativity, you'll only be robbing the game of bug fixes, added features, and more developers.

Stratics Veteran

I disagree, because things like Mesanna coming out at the last Shard meeting and saying, look, guys, we're trying to fight the cheaters...

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sorry but that really sounds ridiculous. mesanna / broadsword could eliminate most cheating by requiring uo login thru steam, however they said that wont happen. its a dead horse the cheating thing. nothing is done about it, nothing ever will. so many people have left the game because of it. Im all for antiscripting / multiboxing implementation, but weve waited and waited and waited and been told over and over that "everything is fine" "we are constantly working against cheaters" with only enough results to keep the game from total collapse.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Smoot I beg to differ.
The Dev of UO have been on a quest from nearly the beginning on the players cheating.
Only now most of the cheating has a dollar hooked to it.
GM's have had their hands full over the years.
One time a GM banned a guy and in 1 minute the same guy was back up and in the GM's face.
He did this for a good while and I bet the GM was spitting nickles at the end.
Now I know for a fact we have less scripting going on but I dont doubt there is still others out there.
Mesanna and her Dev Team along with Broadsword have been at the clean up of cheats, hacks, and the rest of what we all have been pancakes about for months on end.
You forget in todays computing world you can get back up and running in the blink of the eye.
Stop them one way, another pops up!
Its going to be a never ending battle to keep the Dev busy till the plug gets pulled.
And you know then the bad eggs will just move to the next game to suck it dry.
So back off the Dev team harrassment ok?

Steam may be good for UO.
This I hope is true.
But dont get me wrong griefers who go too far are not welcome.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Perpetuum it is like EVE with mechs and yes you got to walk a lot, its a good game but not as good as EVE nor as UO, but high potential. Will also tell you sandbox playing communities in general are the least biased towards graphs from nowadays gamers, they more like features which are the "tools" to do activities in a sandbox. Keep in mind 3D graphs aren't necessarily better looking

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Perpetuum looks fun to me, I'm not knocking it. I'm just jaded as far what UO will gain from Steam (still think it's a great idea).

@Lug@Hannes Erich and @Smoot (lets see if that works)--you guys raise good points, and hey, we all know how official UO is right now. Say what you will, but Mesanna at least responded and didn't blow off the question regarding cheating. If you completely cut off the legs of the production team, what good does that do? So I'm trying to give hope for due credit, regardless.

@Hannes Erich -- There are def tons of retro games out there, perhaps none more popular than Minecraft it seems, but games like that cop game whatever that is that always pops up on Steam? There's also tools like RPG Maker, which I've been tempted to get (I just bought Game Character Hub, it's a tool for making animated sprite sheets. It's pretty cool). Then there's SotA, Shards Online, you know. I don't know.

I guess my feeling is if Broadsword had an actual page on Steam, they would have a huge platform to give out information on their product. The criticism and the free shards are always going to be there, but right now Broadsword has a Facebook page and their website. Presence on Steam would generate a lot more page impressions than what they currently get, I would imagine. But I'm hearing you guys and agree Broadsword will need to do it the right way, lest look silly. No pressure, right?

Actually if you talk for retro construction/survival sandboxes I dare to say Terraria with Retro look might be as popular or close to Minecraft, so I repeat graphs isnt what attracts mostly a sandbox gamer. Will tell you for me, for example, if EVE was redone in Star Control 2/3 graphs I would like it even more, lol. Advantage of 2d graphs: They give a better fantasy feel and ease they eyes on long playing periods, typically more direct controls Advantage of 3d graphs: Realism and easier to show physics in general.

For Perpetuum yes its a good but its what I call a "vessel" game. You live in your vehicle which is a robot in the case. In EVE's case is spaceships. That turns people who want to be seeing their char off. Most notably its VERY rare a female player to play one. Also SCI-FI sandboxes while UO is a medieval fantasy for the most part. Having seen classic online games turn to 3D and fail(eg Ragnarok VS Ragnarok 2) I would say UO with 2D graphs is more atmospheric and sinks you more into feeling you are in a FANTASY setting. Could UO graphs be improved? Of course, color depth to start with but its not the most important thing right now so I wont say more on it.

To me the problem with UO right now is they got few staff. Therefore they leave out checking steam page, fb page, site and they advance their updates a bit slow. But think of it, this tied to the financial part. How does financials get better? By having more players. How they can have more players? By promoting the game on fb, steam and possibly some popular game search sites like mpogd.com, mmohuts.com and onrpg. My point? The faster they release on steam and get some income the faster they will work the game too. Occasional lag also is because their servers are on the cloud(multiple virtual servers on one physical server) and that is again due to paying costs.

Bottom line UO players need steam to have more people to play with and BS needs steam to cover their costs, get even more promotion actions, fix the occasional lag by moving to dedicated servers and advance updates faster. From any angle you see it steam release can only do good. What this community can do to help? Make reviews on the game from your own eyes on what you like on the game there, on comments and discussions.

But All cant be done at once, I am having a feel they wanted to release on steam after summer update but lets see.

Irrelevant question: Before my break I was playing on Europa and was a semi active server, is it still active and which would be most active servers nowadays? Cause I am getting fired up to play again

Stratics Veteran

I've always said: if Mythic (now Broadsword) found a way to get the Enhanced Client's user interface onto the Classic Client, they'd have a landslide victory on their hands amid the competition on Steam, especially with Pinco's contributions. I'm not dissing the EC here--I genuinely enjoy both clients. I'm just saying, the UI is the CC's biggest problem. Granted, I don't mind it, it was innovative for its time, it's familiar, and so on. TO ME. Maybe to YOU. But remember. If you want to talk about Steam, it can't all be about us.

P.S. @Monomaxos I know the most active servers are Atlantic and Great Lakes in that order. Atlantic far exceeds GL's population or any other server's, but GL still has several big groups of players, including RPers and rares traders. I wouldn't just up and leave your old server though. Ask around first. Sometimes the right group of players can make a server worth it. Enough quality makes up for quantity. I'm pretty sure I'm preaching to the choir here.

Stratics Veteran

I just want to add, @Lady Storm, @Monomaxos, @galen, @popps, @Yadd of Legends, and yes, @G.v.P. (PKers with some kind of code of ethics), people like you need to remain loud and clear, especially in-game. It's a tough job speaking over the loud and obnoxious voices out there, but someone has to do it, and it helps keep the silent majority of the game's playerbase around. And make no mistake, that silent majority IS the majority.

G.V.P., I'm sure many of us have never rez-killed. Like many others, I've always preferred PvM co-op and crafting and house customization. Granted, in my biggest guild days (with the Nobility [TN]), we had a guard contingent who hunted evil PKers like dogs. We named them our Black Company. But the rule was, a death and a short roleplayed lecture was the limit. No rez-killing. Unfortunately, our guard was our own failed experiment. They got a taste for blood, consistently broke rank and the rules, and we had to let them go. That was the day Black Company[BC] was born, sorry about unleashing that monster onto the world.

I like the graphs feel of classic(more towards fantasy), UI of enhanced is more practical though, but got an issue when buying from npc shops on EC the plus or minus button jams adding or removing the full amount while the window on top says its not responding and my PC is BIG for this game. I still bear it thought cause the inventory and UI more practical.

To me the problem with UO right now is they got few staff. Therefore they leave out checking steam page, fb page, site and they advance their updates a bit slow.

Click to expand...

I see improvement under Broadsword - though it takes time to reverse course and fix everything. As an example of improvement: Have you checked the facebook page in a while? It seems to be checked and updated regularly now.

Irrelevant question: Before my break I was playing on Europa and was a semi active server, is it still active and which would be most active servers nowadays? Cause I am getting fired up to play again

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Atlantic is still by far the most populated server. I have not traveled Europa much, but the times I have been there I do see folk around. You can always start a trial account and wander a few shards to see the activity during your prime-play-time to see what is a good fit before resubscribing.

Yes its what I meant too, they do improve but due to being under-staffed it goes definitely slow. However they should give some time to add updates announcements to steam to show the game is actively being worked

Yes might be a good idea. I liked the guild I was into there but there wasnt much activity on server. Still if the guild still is around and active I will stick there

Stratics Veteran

Smoot I beg to differ.
The Dev of UO have been on a quest from nearly the beginning on the players cheating.
Only now most of the cheating has a dollar hooked to it.
GM's have had their hands full over the years.
One time a GM banned a guy and in 1 minute the same guy was back up and in the GM's face.
He did this for a good while and I bet the GM was spitting nickles at the end.
Now I know for a fact we have less scripting going on but I dont doubt there is still others out there.
Mesanna and her Dev Team along with Broadsword have been at the clean up of cheats, hacks, and the rest of what we all have been pancakes about for months on end.
You forget in todays computing world you can get back up and running in the blink of the eye.
Stop them one way, another pops up!
Its going to be a never ending battle to keep the Dev busy till the plug gets pulled.
And you know then the bad eggs will just move to the next game to suck it dry.
So back off the Dev team harrassment ok?

Steam may be good for UO.
This I hope is true.
But dont get me wrong griefers who go too far are not welcome.

Click to expand...

agree to disagree. 1000 gms manually responding to pages or detecting cheats in game would not be as effective as an anti-script program.
Duping has always plagued UO as well, and an anti-cheat program would not be able to detect this, but nothing has been done to combat duping except the failed non-vendorable idea. there are tons of houses max lockdowns full of transfers, soulstone tokens, two story statues. You forget that even when the Europa sphinx/imbue ingredient duper castle fell, mesanna ALLOWED everything to be kept. Which destroyed the value of imbue ingredients basically forever and removed a good thing for players with mid-range gear to farm / sell for gold.

Stratics Veteran

Actually if you talk for retro construction/survival sandboxes I dare to say Terraria with Retro look might be as popular or close to Minecraft, so I repeat graphs isnt what attracts mostly a sandbox gamer. Will tell you for me, for example, if EVE was redone in Star Control 2/3 graphs I would like it even more, lol. Advantage of 2d graphs: They give a better fantasy feel and ease they eyes on long playing periods, typically more direct controls Advantage of 3d graphs: Realism and easier to show physics in general.

For Perpetuum yes its a good but its what I call a "vessel" game. You live in your vehicle which is a robot in the case. In EVE's case is spaceships. That turns people who want to be seeing their char off. Most notably its VERY rare a female player to play one. Also SCI-FI sandboxes while UO is a medieval fantasy for the most part. Having seen classic online games turn to 3D and fail(eg Ragnarok VS Ragnarok 2) I would say UO with 2D graphs is more atmospheric and sinks you more into feeling you are in a FANTASY setting. Could UO graphs be improved? Of course, color depth to start with but its not the most important thing right now so I wont say more on it.

To me the problem with UO right now is they got few staff. Therefore they leave out checking steam page, fb page, site and they advance their updates a bit slow. But think of it, this tied to the financial part. How does financials get better? By having more players. How they can have more players? By promoting the game on fb, steam and possibly some popular game search sites like mpogd.com, mmohuts.com and onrpg. My point? The faster they release on steam and get some income the faster they will work the game too. Occasional lag also is because their servers are on the cloud(multiple virtual servers on one physical server) and that is again due to paying costs.

Bottom line UO players need steam to have more people to play with and BS needs steam to cover their costs, get even more promotion actions, fix the occasional lag by moving to dedicated servers and advance updates faster. From any angle you see it steam release can only do good. What this community can do to help? Make reviews on the game from your own eyes on what you like on the game there, on comments and discussions.

But All cant be done at once, I am having a feel they wanted to release on steam after summer update but lets see.

Irrelevant question: Before my break I was playing on Europa and was a semi active server, is it still active and which would be most active servers nowadays? Cause I am getting fired up to play again

Click to expand...

Problem is EA still controls the money. I'm not sure how much influence Broadsword has with requesting more funds, or if they see any extra money if UO becomes more profitable. I hope they do, and that the money can be put back into what the game needs to flourish, but fear EA just pockets it as shortsighted profits.

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