British scientist Stephen Hawking has branded heaven a "fairy story" for people afraid of the dark, in his latest dismissal of the concepts underpinning the world's religions...

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

I see this as fairly mild. Besides, regarding many conceptions of heaven (final resting/party place of souls "freed" from bodies) he's right.

But I also have a great love for fairy stories and for healthy fear of the dark, so perhaps I don't see it as so great a condemnation!

« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 05:51:32 PM by NicholasMyra »

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

I don't think his position is informed by reason, but by his condition.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"...his views were partly influenced by his battle with motor neurone disease."

Understandable.

Absolutely.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.

If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.

If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.

If there were no eternal consciousness in a man; if, at the bottom of everything, there were only a wild ferment, a power that, twisting in dark passions, produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable, insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything -- what would life be but despair?

If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.

Its a charity he supports. Maybe he wants some of those kids to have a better life. Or some of the kids of those kids. Or some of the kids of those kids of those kids. Or...

The idea that just because there is no super-duper-eternal-meaning, that that means there can be no meaning at all, is simply not true. And as a sometime agnostic I find this idea you are putting forward (which I hear often) to be frustrating. Do you think I suddenly stop caring for my family when I struggle with believing in God and the concept of eternal meaning? In those moments it's not important to me that my life might not matter a bazillion years from now. What I do in this life might have meaning 10 years from now, and maybe even in some small way (through the family) 100 years from now. That's good enough for me. I think it's unfortunate that you can't or won't accept that such temporary meaning could be important to someone. I say this not to insult you: a number of posters here believe that, and even my own priest--who I much admire--goes along with this basic idea. I just think it's unfortunate.

1. there is no God (however so defined); and2. matter spontaneously self-existed (or whatever variant theory one might wish to confess); and3. abiogenesis is true; and4. evolution of species by natural selection is true,

then all human relationships are meaingless biological processes, which are reducible to apparently yet more meaningless chemical processes, which are in turn reducible to apparently yet more meaningless physical processes.

I am not saying this to heap trash on your spiritual struggle, Asteriktos, just saying that the idea that "no God = meaninglessness" is a timeless one and that timelessness is a function of its power.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

If there is no afterlife, then clearly there is no meaning in the life we live now; there is no justification for Hawking to say he wants to do more with his life when ultimately it becomes meaningless.

If there were no eternal consciousness in a man; if, at the bottom of everything, there were only a wild ferment, a power that, twisting in dark passions, produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable, insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything -- what would life be but despair?

Its a charity he supports. Maybe he wants some of those kids to have a better life. Or some of the kids of those kids. Or some of the kids of those kids of those kids. Or...

But any sort of charity wouldn't matter, there would be no meaning to be charitable to children who have no meaning whatsoever.

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The idea that just because there is no super-duper-eternal-meaning, that that means there can be no meaning at all, is simply not true. And as a sometime agnostic I find this idea you are putting forward (which I hear often) to be frustrating.

It's frustrating because it's true. If God doesn't exist, then all that remains is nihilism. Any atheist who says otherwise is simply kidding themselves. If there is no such thing as an afterlife, everything we do here on this earthly life has absolutley no objective/absolute meaning whatsoever, and even a subjective meaning is self-refuting when one adopts this worldview. Not only this, but everything is permitted. There would be nothing to stop a man from nuking the whole world without some future judgment.

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Do you think I suddenly stop caring for my family when I struggle with believing in God and the concept of eternal meaning?

We are looking at this logically, if there is no meaning at all in life, no absolute meaning, then you have no reason to take care of your children. None. Any reason that you try to support your argument is delusional, because you could be wrong; this is the fallacy of relativism.

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In those moments it's not important to me that my life might not matter a bazillion years from now. What I do in this life might have meaning 10 years from now, and maybe even in some small way (through the family) 100 years from now. That's good enough for me.

But in the 100 year span the whole world ends, what meaning did you give it then? And how will you know your life gave any meaning 10 or 100 years from now, you won't and it simply wouldn't matter what you did.

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I think it's unfortunate that you can't or won't accept that such temporary meaning could be important to someone. I say this not to insult you: a number of posters here believe that, and even my own priest--who I much admire--goes along with this basic idea. I just think it's unfortunate.

I want absolutes in life, not ones that are simply temporary or fleeting.

1. there is no God (however so defined); and2. matter spontaneously self-existed (or whatever variant theory one might wish to confess); and3. abiogenesis is true; and4. evolution of species by natural selection is true,

then all human relationships are meaingless biological processes, which are reducible to apparently yet more meaningless chemical processes, which are in turn reducible to apparently yet more meaningless physical processes.

I am not saying this to heap trash on your spiritual struggle, Asteriktos, just saying that the idea that "no God = meaninglessness" is a timeless one and that timelessness is a function of its power.

Post of the month!

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

1. there is no God (however so defined); and2. matter spontaneously self-existed (or whatever variant theory one might wish to confess); and3. abiogenesis is true; and4. evolution of species by natural selection is true,

then all human relationships are meaingless biological processes, which are reducible to apparently yet more meaningless chemical processes, which are in turn reducible to apparently yet more meaningless physical processes.

I am not saying this to heap trash on your spiritual struggle, Asteriktos, just saying that the idea that "no God = meaninglessness" is a timeless one and that timelessness is a function of its power.

I see this as fairly mild. Besides, regarding many conceptions of heaven (final resting/party place of souls "freed" from bodies) he's right.

Yeah. The popular concept of the afterlife has become so neutered and silly that an intelligent man like Hawking is right to reject it, because that really is simply a coping mechanism. The idea of sitting around in the clouds or in a beautiful landscape with one's family and friends playing football for eternity is not much better than cave man stuff.

Many of these people are simply reacting against shallow Evangelicalism and take that as Christianity. I wonder what people like Hawking would think of the deeper, philosophical Church Fathers, who teach that salvation is not escaping to a happy world, but union with God. Based on Cosmos, Carl Sagan seemed to have had a bit of a thing for Hinduism, which is at least superficially similar to Theosis in some ways, so who knows?

I see this as fairly mild. Besides, regarding many conceptions of heaven (final resting/party place of souls "freed" from bodies) he's right.

Yeah. The popular concept of the afterlife has become so neutered and silly that an intelligent man like Hawking is right to reject it, because that really is simply a coping mechanism. The idea of sitting around in the clouds or in a beautiful landscape with one's family and friends playing football for eternity is not much better than cave man stuff.

And from his perspective, a brilliant mind in a damaged body that has become more a prison than an extension of his personhood, hoping in a platonic mind heaven would appear cowardly and escapist. I see this as an extension of his determination to work within the conditions he has been given, rather than an in-depth theological rejection.

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

If there were no eternal consciousness in a man; if, at the bottom of everything, there were only a wild ferment, a power that, twisting in dark passions, produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable, insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything -- what would life be but despair?

Soren Kierkegaard, Fear and Trembling

I don;t see forthcoming from Mr. Hawking an explanations as to how human consciousness evolved and arose from rocks or other inert matter.

I would put this article and its headline into the trash heap of other startling possible revelations such as ' Sky is Blue reports prominent Scientist', 'I don't like Obama, says Trump', 'What Steroids, says Barry Bonds.' Not news, not interesting.

Psalm 14: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" The same goes for Heaven.

Perhaps from a Christian perspective. But many religions do not have a very well-defined idea of heaven (for instance, early Judaism), while still strongly believing in God and a purposeful cosmos.

Many Christians reject "heaven" as popularly conceived. I think N.T. Wright wrote a whole book about it:

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It therefore comes as a something of a shock that Wright doesn't believe in heaven — at least, not in the way that millions of Christians understand the term. In his new book, Surprised by Hope (HarperOne), Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver called What's Heaven, which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk... If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him." That, says Wright is a good example of "what not to say." The Biblical truth, he continues, "is very, very different."

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 10:24:04 AM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Psalm 14: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" The same goes for Heaven.

Perhaps from a Christian perspective. But many religions do not have a very well-defined idea of heaven (for instance, early Judaism), while still strongly believing in God and a purposeful cosmos.

Many Christians reject "heaven" as popularly conceived. I think N.T. Wright wrote a whole book about it:

Quote

It therefore comes as a something of a shock that Wright doesn't believe in heaven — at least, not in the way that millions of Christians understand the term. In his new book, Surprised by Hope (HarperOne), Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver called What's Heaven, which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk... If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him." That, says Wright is a good example of "what not to say." The Biblical truth, he continues, "is very, very different."

We will all be surprised if or when we get there. But, that doesn't mean there is no heaven. No one among the living knows what heaven is really like...none of us have experienced it and won't until we pass from this life. But is does exist.