But being a hardcore Anarcho-Marxist doesn't exactly correlate with getting one's pole waxed.

Just for the record I am not an Anarcho-Marxist, I am a Rationalist, Empiricalist. As far as I can see, the evidence strongly supports the idea that Free-Markets are the best vehicles by which an equitable distribution of wealth, without undermining wealth creation, can be achieved. And, that equality in wealth distribution is a desirable outcome in so much as it enables the greatest human efficiency in innovation and wealth creation, by maximizing group outcomes, threw group driven peer pressure to preform, while at the same time ensuring the health needed to maximize human potential during times in which their are plenty of resources to go around. Free Markets also allow a mechanism to adjust wealth distribution in times of resource scarcity, creating conditions of meritocratic unequal distribution, which is required to see that the best performers can maximize their output limiting the damage such scarcity can inflict on the group.

Capitalism is an obstacle to both free exchange, that is exchange free of coercion, and there by an obstacle to innovation and wealth creation. Since it rewards the lest productive in the group by means of those individuals gaming the market in their favor, at the expense of the most productive market players. And this historically has lead to the deaths of tens of millions of people, high levels of market volatility, social unrest and longterm inefficiency of outcomes..

I mean, would YOU suck his dick? If the world depended on it maybe, but EWWWWW. You wouldn't like it (Even if it was in that last HomeDepot parking lot), would you? It'd be like sucking on a big liver/onion stick, CH. I know you are magnanimous, but you wouldn't touch that shit. You are a humanitarian, but, please.

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"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."

Really. He's just a downer. I made my points, I could give a fuck if he agrees, dissents or whatever. Nohope if just that: NO HOPE. There's no point in trying to make him see a differing opinion. I can't make him see how that single, lonely falling leaf from the tree in front of my house is sacred in it's own way. He can't see they beauty in that leaf. He can't cherish the moment that it touches down & contributes to all things.

For him there is no future. Just a big, empty void of nothingness.

That works for him, so be it. I'm not going to even be bothered with somebody that views life with such emptiness.

I hang on to hope. It'll probably fuck me, but it's one of those things that keep me going. As far am I consciously concerned, that's okay. A little hope never hurt nobody.

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"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."

I've not even bothered to read his responses. No reason to bat a fly if all he does is flutter around. He has the same rules of space that I do. I'm just not willing to put forth the effort to swat him.

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"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."

Hi, I "believe" in democracy, and I "believe" that the government is intruding and limiting our personal rightws, it's wrong. BUT BUT BUT, I don't see how limiting the number of children has is invading on a person's personal rights. Oh my goodness, hyperbole!

Ahem, to quote from the This Just in Thread...

I do not see how restricting the number of children is any more of an invasion of personal privacy.

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Hatred does not cease in this world by hating, but by not hating; this is an eternal truth. --- Buddah, The Dhammapada

if capitalism is a religion (which I'd argue it isn't as it has no clearly-written central dogma) then communism/socialism is also a religion in that it is a system of ideas about how the world should work and how people should behave. Which means feminism is also a religion... and the list goes on, your argument becomes circular and you can't even respect yourself.

I think you are right.

QUOTE(mornington @ Nov 12 2008, 12:21 PM)

We all believe in something, whether it's Jesus, Krishna, money or the infallibility of science. Everything requires a degree of faith; a scientist must have faith that the theory of whatever is true because otherwise her/his scientific endeavour is undermined and cannot be (dis)proven.

In this particular context, I'm talking about faith, a priori knowledge. And given that "we" don't all "believe" in something. Some of us simply have greater and lesser confidence levels in various ideas based on a set of metrics against which those ideas are measured.

feminism is a perfect example. There really are two schools in feminism as it regards knowledge. Those who believe in feminism a priori, and those who believe is feminism because the evidence demonstrates that feminism is the correct position.

We don't require faith, because to not have faith does not change the basic nature of reality. The argument usually is made that we require faith to act on information. But action is a default position. We can not help but act.

Life is like going up to a soda machine and putting in a change for a soda. We don't know that when we hit the button a soda will come out, but we have a high level of certainty based on data collected from our past experiences that suggest that one will. I don't know that the son will come up this morning, but based on a collection of data from my past experiences I have a high level of confidence that it will.

Science is the same way. I don't know that the scientific method will answer difficult questions for me better than say reading a book or writing on Bust, but the data suggests that their is a high level of probability that the scientific method will.

On the other hand I have no data points to suggest that their is an inviable, timeless, tyrant who who will judge us in a place I have no data exists or condemn us to another place I have no data exits.... and so the probability of that senareo being true approaches zero.

When people have faith in dangerous ideas for which their is no compelling data, then serious consequence can ensue. For example the belief, without sufficient evidence, that darker skinned people were non humans. Or the belief without sufficient evidence, that homosexuality is a sin. Or the belief with out sufficient evidence that Obama can put aside his beliefs regarding Israel, and the coming to life of a two thousand year old dead guy, who will judge us all and who thinks homosexuality is a sin. If Obama does not hold such superstitions, then why not come out and let us all know instead of aligning himself with such dangerous ideas.

now running on biodiesel and sacrificial blood
Posts: 2,227
From: the little house on the hill

*sticks head in*

if capitalism is a religion (which I'd argue it isn't as it has no clearly-written central dogma) then communism/socialism is also a religion in that it is a system of ideas about how the world should work and how people should behave. Which means feminism is also a religion... and the list goes on, your argument becomes circular and you can't even respect yourself.

We all believe in something, whether it's Jesus, Krishna, money or the infallibility of science. Everything requires a degree of faith; a scientist must have faith that the theory of whatever is true because otherwise her/his scientific endeavour is undermined and cannot be (dis)proven.

ok, anger turning to pity/contempt, at this point. if you need me to explain why i find it a good thing to respect my fellow human beings and their choices, then you're way beyond where i thought you were. good luck having a worthwhile human existence with those views.

and no, you don't respect me. and i will fully admit i do not respect someone full of as much hate as you. please to not direct any more false pleasantries in my direction.

furthermore, it's clearly not special pleading. i'm talking about the specific example that was brought up, and you are making dangerously sweeping generalizations. this didn't start as a debate about the merits of religion at large, it started as wondering whether obama will be misguided by his religion.

this business about siding up with anti abortion folks, rubs me the wrong way, as does your brainless vitrol towards religious people. i think it's dangerous, hypocritical, and not very thought out-- i.e. dumb. it reminds me of invading and taking over a whole country for a dozen or so terrorists. on first blush it might seem like a good idea, but what's needed is perspective-- you need to see the forest for the trees. there is nothing to be gained by hating someone for hating you.

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"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve

I am not anti choice, have never been anti-choice and will never be anti-choice. I am pro-life though,I believe that killing a fetus is not moral, but I believe that putting a womens life in danger by outlawing abortion is even less moral. Dose that make sense. I believe that killing a fetus is wrong but women must have the legal right and opportunity to have safe leagel abortions. And because I don't think parents rights should come before those of children, I oppose parental noteficatoin.

QUOTE(girltrouble @ Nov 11 2008, 02:11 PM)

"bigotry towards religion"

as for religion, 9/11, which hunting in Africa, Israeli Palestinian conflict, Mulime and Hindu fundamentalism and genocides, Christian terrorists in Africa. Oh and Sarah Palin and ilk have turned me into a biggot towards religion.

I don't think i covered all the killings did I mention Nazi Germany, and Marxism... and Capitalism... yeah those are also religions in my book.

QUOTE(girltrouble @ Nov 11 2008, 02:11 PM)

he's not a troll. imho, he's every bit the bustie any of us is.[/color]

nohope--islam isn't any more a "sacred cow" than any other religion. but as a human i have respect for other people's beliefs (and no, your "it's more probable therefore i'm right" argument still doesn't let you get off insulting every other belief, less probable or not. it's still a fucking BELIEF).

I have no respect for people who respect other peoples beliefs simply because they hold beliefs.

Which is why I respect you even if I think the evidence points to you being dead wrong. For example you don't respect my belief that some beliefs deserve no respect.

As for insults. It's an insult to call Islam a bunch of gibberish.... that's just a fact. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Dogmatic Marxism, Nazism, Judaism, Capitalism, Individualism.... it's all wishfully thinking and gibberish.

QUOTE(mouse @ Nov 11 2008, 03:16 AM)

yes, there's a lot in islam that isn't nice. there's a lot in christianity that isn't nice either, and in most other major religions. there is also a lot that is very good, like most other major religions. i'm not, by any means, saying you can't criticize islam and if you actually read and understood my points instead of trying to put words in my mouth so you can have an argument about something i didn't actually say, you'd understand that. also, i don't appreciate being told to "get a clue". i'm actually educated and have studied comparative religion, so i do have a grasp on what i'm talking about. your insulting me is not going to suddenly make me "smarter" and agree with you, so please can it.

also, again with the twisting of my words: i didn't say religion *doesn't* play a part in things, i said it doesn't *have to*. so far, obama has only shown tolerance and intelligence on issues that the church usually gets salty about. when his religion actually comes into play with how he governs, then i'll complain. but so far, he hasn't shown any sign of going in that direction.

furthermore, letting one's religion guide one's actions doesn't have to result in trauma. look at jimmy carter--a deeply religious man, doing some of the best things out there--peace work, human rights work, humanitarian aid, etc. sure, one doesn't have to be religious to do those things, but who cares where the impetus comes from if good things are getting done.

So, NoHope, why don't you get a fcuking clue and realize that science is religion.

Because science is not a religious it's a methodology. And it's effectiveness over other methodologies is empirically testable.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM)

[color=#9932CC]Further, your panning of religion saying that it's garbled nonsense (I'm not picking word for word, but that's, the gist), is just as ignorant as the people you are putting down by living wholly for their religion.

I wish religion was only garbled nonsense. Btu if it was just, garbled nonsense, no one would believe it. No religion is faith in the inerrancy of garbled nonsense. It's the fact that the garbled nonsense is beyond falsification that makes religion so dangerous.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM)

You are what we in Anthropology, like to call ethnocentric. Is that too big a word for you? Would you like me to cut and copy the entry from dictionary.com and pass off the work as my own? Oooh, there's another one for you to look up, plagerism. Don't try and pass of work as your own when it isn't.

ad hominem. There is nothing about my ethnicity which gives me a monopoly on science, reason and empiricism. I am fallowing the same philosophical path as free thinkers around the world whether they were Indian, Chinese, Greek, Roman, Persian you name it.... That accusation is simply with out merit, and insulting to all the non western traditions from whom we inherited our intellectual tradition. The west was in the dark ages while Chinese, Indians and Persians were forging their won atheist traditions and arguments against religion. They invented science wile we were still praying to god/gods to not give us water born diseases.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM)

I am also an athiest, firm believer in science etc, but being an athiest doesn't equal intolerance. someone will belive whatever they want to believe, religion gives people a reason for believing, some people really need to believe there is someting to life, three is meaning to life, and religion gives that to them.

And being a atheist doesn't take meaning away, it gives meaning by focusing on what it real.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM)

WORD mouse. There are a lot of crappy things about religion, and there are a lot of crappy things about science. there were some really unethical people who did things, all in the name of science, just like people do things in the name of god. NoHope, would you like me to cut and paste some things that, ooooh, the Nazi's did, should I refresh your memory about that happened at Nanking?

I think nohope is a total douche . I don't know why people even bother engaging with him. He doesn't give a shit about what people think nor is he interested in getting a perspective different than his own or engaging in intelligent dialouge with someone who's views differ from his own. but whatevs.

I think he's never been disrespectful until now, but I'd hesitate to consider him a "Bustie"- he has always had his own agenda coming here, rarely participates in existing threads and rarely posts his own thoughts. Some of what he's posted in the past has been interesting, but I don't know if I'd consider him to be a fully-contributing member. Not quite a troll, either.

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You went to school where you were taught to fear and to obey, be cheerful, fit in, or someone might think you're weird.Life can be perfect. People can be trusted. Someday, I will fall in love; a nice quiet home of my very own.Free from all the pain. Happy and having fun all the time.It never happened, did it?

in nohope's defense, he isn't a troll. he's not, yes, he posts things to hear the sound of his voice, and he used to post whole interviews and articles instead of links without a word of his own (which is my pet peeve), but he does believe what he posts, and he does contribute to the lounge-- he always has. you may not agree with him, but he doesn't post things to start fights. it's where he comes from. i don't know where his recent anti-choice bullshit came from, or this bigotry towards religion, but i don't think he's looking for a fight, he's just calling 'em like he sees 'em.

that's how he's always been.

he's not a troll. imho, he's every bit the bustie any of us is.

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"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve