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Of course, I'm not denying the existence of extra-terrestrial life, intelligent extra-terrestrial life or intelligent extra-terrestrial life visiting Earth, but this is not about seeing aliens throughout the ages, is it?

Of course, I'm not denying the existence of extra-terrestrial life, intelligent extra-terrestrial life or intelligent extra-terrestrial life visiting Earth, but this is not about seeing aliens throughout the ages, is it?

Rod, you must admit, it brings up some interesting questions. Extraterrestrial contact has been occurring for thousands of years. Have abductions been happening as long as the sightings? It would suggest a very long term relationship. We're Talking thousands of years of contact instead of 60. How does that change the equation?

We should also consider we live in the Information Age. UFO videos are everywhere, in the 50s to the 80s we had books, magazines, cable shows, organized conferences. Now we have the internet with easy access and dissemination of all sorts of stuff, theories, experiences, books, including easy ways people can make money off of titillating fantasies. Is it a coincidence increased UFO contact has followed the blossoming of the digital age. At the same time our technology has advanced to record anomalous UFO events, including by commercial, military flights and space exploration sightings.
Are we really experiencing a ramping up of aliens revealing themselves or is this a symptom of all the information access. How do we know what we know? In the hierarchy of 'evidence', what is worth holding onto as we build our basic standard model of alien contact. It can't all be true and I suspect very little of alien minutia is true. Consensus can also equate with copy. Be mindful, Inquire, discern, stay with the data.

With regard to Stan’s comment that I accepted that “one can’t get there from here,” this is simply not true. Obviously I don’t know enough about engineering to comment on this at all. But the beings may not rely on our conventional technologies. That they get here, by whatever means they use is, to me incontrovertible.
In the years that I have been investigating the alien encounter phenomenon I have been impressed with many of the ambiguities and paradoxes it contains. Sometimes the contact seems physically real, but not always. Sometimes there is physical evidence, but not always, and it is often rather elusive. This has forced me — I’m not alone in this — to become more sophisticated about how we understand or think about reality.

For many scholars, including psychiatrists, philosophers and theologians, reality does not fall neatly into two categories, viz. physical or mental, external or internal. There are other dimensions of reality and phenomena can be both.

I think if you had stated that the facts show that the military-industrial-intelligence complex is not at the essence of the phenomenon, that would have sounded scientific, but you didn't say that. You referred to another hypothesis that showed the military-industrial-intelligence complex is not at the essence of the abduction phenomenon. However, if you are saying certain facts show this to be wrong please let me know. Regards, Rod

OK, there are many reasons why people don’t. I find it impossible to “stay with the data” because there’s so much of it. Others more knowledgeable (and maybe more opinionated) than me, however, have pointed out that this data seems to grow as the pro-ET abduction lobby is challenged to give further proof of the phenomena they believe in.
I referred earlier to a very alienating presence felt in a couple of dreams I had at very different points in my life, an extra-terrestrial presence, or so it seemed. What you may like to consider is the very alienating presence of certain human beings today whose origins on Earth go back thousands of years, and who are capable of the most profound lies and deceptions to keep things going as they wish. An interesting portrayal of such people can be seen in Stephen Poliakoff’s film Glorious 39, which I can assure you is based on things that really did happen in Britain in the 1930s (and even though many of the reviews were hostile, I rate it highly). It’s on Youtube. It’s not, about extra-terrestrials but it is about alienation. Or do you not cast your nets that far?

Rod, that's the beautiful and confounding thing about consciousness, although we human species all share a similar physical environment and we have our 5 senses in common. We each perceive reality in a different way. As Alex would attest, even heaven itself is proving a confounding enigma to those trying to discover a standardized reality map. Yes, NDEers do reveal some profound basic experiences, which resonates in the very core of my being, but the particular data points elude us. It's the same with the abduction story. The experiencers are transformed one way or another, but unless your one of those, your still standing on the outside. There is a hierarchy of information for the outsider. Gathering Information is not experience, it's not 'verifiable data' that one can build a accurate model of the universe. Its not personal 'knowledge' which may provide some deeper wisdom, understanding or capability. We can't say anything conclusive about information except its interesting. The mind itself is incredibly complex and has its own deeper layers which are operating below this conscious facade. OK Ive experienced a UFO, I buy into Dr. Mack's conclusion abductions are occurring. It doesn't follow that every light is a flying saucer and the UFO buff's subconscious fears and dreams are memories of some hidden abduction memory. One looks at our embrace of religious and political ideologies and you have to wonder if anyone can think critically about the world around them.

Alex, Ian Gordon had recommended this video on YouTube called UFOs The Secret History, which ended up being the most helpful thing I've seen on the subject. The reason I mention it, though, is that in it David Jacobs speaks to that crucial subject you brought up. You asked him if he thought there was any validity to NDEs and other kinds of spiritual experiences. Whereas he essentially refused to answer in your interview, in this documentary he does speak to the issue. Here's what he says right at the 30-minute mark:

"It is also a phenomenon that is life-long, that begins in infancy and that occurs with fairly regular consistency and sometimes great frequency. In spite of that, people still don’t know what happened to them, so they interpret odd experiences, which they know they’ve had, as religious, or as New Agey, or as traveling on the astral plane, or as near-death experiences, or whatever it is that the society allows them to interpret it as. But being abducted is not one of those things that the society will allow."

Based on this comment, he does see NDEs and certain other spiritual experiences as relevant for the abduction phenomenon. But what he does is treat the abduction phenomenon (as he reads it) as the key to interpreting at least some claimed spiritual experiences, rather than treating the spiritual experiences as the key to interpreting the abduction phenomenon.

Based on this comment, he does see NDEs and certain other spiritual experiences as relevant for the abduction phenomenon. But what he does is treat the abduction phenomenon (as he reads it) as the key to interpreting at least some claimed spiritual experiences, rather than treating the spiritual experiences as the key to interpreting the abduction phenomenon.

I was glad that Jacobs stood his ground when pressed about spiritual interpretations. As I understand it, Jacobs is researching the events themselves and what they actually are, as distinguished from their effects on the individual's life and beliefs. There was so much back and forth about the spiritual issue, that little or no time seemed to be spent on what has been learned about the phenomenon, the evidence for it, its purpose and current status.

A great book on that subject is Cattle Mutilations: An Elusive Prey by "Samuel Adams". It's a short but astonishing book about the role mutilations played in the life of a cattleman, and their connection to cattle auctions he was involved in.

Alex, Ian Gordon had recommended this video on YouTube called UFOs The Secret History, which ended up being the most helpful thing I've seen on the subject. The reason I mention it, though, is that in it David Jacobs speaks to that crucial subject you brought up. You asked him if he thought there was any validity to NDEs and other kinds of spiritual experiences. Whereas he essentially refused to answer in your interview, in this documentary he does speak to the issue. Here's what he says right at the 30-minute mark:

"It is also a phenomenon that is life-long, that begins in infancy and that occurs with fairly regular consistency and sometimes great frequency. In spite of that, people still don’t know what happened to them, so they interpret odd experiences, which they know they’ve had, as religious, or as New Agey, or as traveling on the astral plane, or as near-death experiences, or whatever it is that the society allows them to interpret it as. But being abducted is not one of those things that the society will allow."

Based on this comment, he does see NDEs and certain other spiritual experiences as relevant for the abduction phenomenon. But what he does is treat the abduction phenomenon (as he reads it) as the key to interpreting at least some claimed spiritual experiences, rather than treating the spiritual experiences as the key to interpreting the abduction phenomenon.

Just, re your very last point, treating the spiritual experiences as the key to interpreting the abduction phenomenon, it does strike me that if there is some benign aspect to these experiences, and what/who is the instigator of them (non-human), then the spiritual "elevation" (of an individual) would come first. But hand in hand with something physical perhaps, some physical evolution? Could one even say a "delicacy in approach" on "their" part?

Could one also suggest there may be some experiences which are only "spiritual" but not physical? Or both together? In that there is a judgement issue here on how each individual (I.e.) is approached by these entities? I'm trying to guess motives here of spiritually and physically evolved entities and how each person is altered by them. And why? I know this is somewhat controversial but I'm interested in the issue of subtlety here.

Ninshub

There was so much back and forth about the spiritual issue, that little or no time seemed to be spent on what has been learned about the phenomenon, the evidence for it, its purpose and current status.

I sympathize with this to some degree and wrote something like it earlier, but I understand this is an Expanded Consciousness forum so Alex is coming at it from different angles, and there's also only so much material that one can cover in an interview.

I find some potential value in Jacobs' approach at trying to get at the minute-to-minute narrative of the encounter/abduction (without making it want me to dismiss all other methods!), but I wrote already about a first point of contention I had when I read The Threat, and this is the second: I'm really skeptical that his own method itself prevents either leading or confabulation issues or even intrusion of past sexual trauma (at least some of the time). The reason I'm saying this is that there were some accounts in the book that raised red flags for me.

In order give a context to what I read, I have to spell out, for those not in the know, some of the specifics of the book where Jacobs talks about hybrids and the possibility of integration into human society (that possibility of integration has become a fact for him as he's said in interviews since and will likely be expounded in the book he's said he's going to write after the methodology one, his "crazy book" as he called it.) As I understand it, the grays mate one of their own with a human to create Hybrid A. Then they mate Hybrid A with a human to create Hybrid B. Then Hybrid B with a human to create Hybrid C, and so on and so on until the hybrids are very hard to distinguish from humans. (So that, if one buys into at least the possibility of that reality, what Will Bueche says at the end of the video I posted, i.e. that integration isn't happening because obviously we can't see it, is logically wrong - because we wouldn't be able to notice it if it was.)

But when you read at least some of those accounts of abductees getting raped or mistreated by late-stage hybrids (some of those late-stage hybrids are impulsive and meaner because they are part human and emotional, as opposed to the grays who are more clinical in their reproductive/"clinical" work, and Jacobs notes how the abductees, whether male or female, feel profoundly more disturbed when they are forced into sexual or reproductive activity when it's with a hybrid instead of a gray because of that), it's hard not to read them as either fantasies or recall of a past abusive situation with a human (who happens to look almost exactly like one of those late-stage hybrids), and I find it personally hard not to be skeptical of all of Jacobs' conclusions.

This specific example raised the most questions for me (The Threat, p. 202-204). (Caution: graphic violence ahead.) "Laura" was in her bed at night, sleeping with her husband, when five hybrids of different stages came in, pissed off because she was using electronic instruments to try and detect them. One hybrid gets on top of her, then she's worried because 3 hybrids are going into the kids' room. Then the kids are at the door watching this. Then another hybrid gets on top of her. Then one forces her to get off the bed and perform oral sex on him/it, while another one is threatening one of the female kids that they'll do this to her if Laura doesn't stop.

Apart from being really disturbed when I read such material, I have a lot of trouble buying into it. For example, how could the husband just be sleeping quietly in the bed alongside Laura when all of this is happening?? Now this could be real, but I don't find it plausible. At the very least, it sounds more like a strange non-physical event given that the husband just doesn't figure into it, or else it's a fantasy or a mixture of God knows what.

Thanks Saiko, that's very interesting (your link) and not sure where to put this comment but it's my answer 1. to the points you bring up in that link (on a mixture and complexity of possibilities to these cases) and 2. to myself when I said just above Could one also suggest there may be some experiences which are only "spiritual" but not physical? Or both together? In that there is a judgement issue here on how each individual (I.e.) is approached by these entities?
So I don't mind relating my experience 4 years ago.
I'm in a large house in a mountain village (in the Middle East) in the summer at night sleeping on the floor on a mattress with a blanket very close to an open sliding door (first floor up). The room is bare. I wake up paralysed, hear an electronic blipping sound (no electronics/radios in the room) and there's a tremendous buzzing/vibration all around. I'm levitated twice then set down. Paralysed on my back, I turn to my right with difficulty and acknowledge this, I suppose presence, behind and above my head (there is a strong white light as well). For me, I feel this stops the events and within seconds everything is intensely quiet. That's it. Probably less than 1 minute in total.
I felt it was both physical and mental together and very intense and personal, esp. the mental. I also got the sense I precipitated stopping it because I felt I should not have acknowledged IT and whatever IT was, if real, did not want to be so recognized. I also did not feel threatened by it, though I felt personally helpless, really helpless at the time.

BTW nothing at all similar to the Old Hag phenomenon - the pressing down on the chest thing. I've had those as well. But I have to say I have been interested for a long while by the UFO issue and had read a lot on this (Mack, Sturrock, Haines, Vallee - the best literature) before this event.

OK, it's an N of 1 - one data point - but it intensely affected me in the sense that you only need one of those to never forget the bloody thing! Really, one's enough.
I'm guessing how this fits into your categories you talk about on your other thread just above.

This specific example [rape scene]...Apart from being really disturbed when I read such material, I have a lot of trouble buying into it. For example, how could the husband just be sleeping quietly in the bed alongside Laura when all of this is happening?? Now this could be real, but I don't find it plausible. At the very least, it sounds more like a strange non-physical event given that the husband just doesn't figure into it, or else it's a fantasy or a mixture of God knows what.

Let's eliminate a few scenarios since we certainly do not have enough hard evidence to meet the criteria for a scientific process.

The majority of what happens in an abduction experience has zippo to do with how you would harvest DNA. There are far easier ways to collect DNA. you only need a few human cells, no 'grab n go' is necessary or subject them to an anal probe. If they were DNA based they would be sufficiently advanced in molecular genetics to know the above and would not need to abduct.

DNA - OUT.

MILABS (military abductions) have also occurred. These have nothing to do with DNA for the very same reasons and much more to do with FUD. People in fear need the protection of TLAs or so many seem to have been indoctrinated to believe. Aliens not required.

Moving on to the spiritual where we can gain ground.

The argument I hear most often about AA not being spiritual is the violence, the horrifying elements, the grossness. This is baloney.

Go have an ayahuasca experience, or take four good pulls on a DMT pipe, and you will find horror, violence, grossness to the nth degree. Yet nearly everyone who has one will tell you it changed their lives, their life values and views and it was by any definition spiritual.

During the OBE/Astral Travel, the subconscious mind dictates the journey or our spirit overseers decide the events, typically with our subconscious approval, or some combination of both. This isn't for funsies like some kind of monstrous amusement park visit, it is for the spiritual experience. It is to learn, to grow, spiritually.

Jacobs - who from my vantage point is kind of a knucklehead anyway - can chase his tail looking for evidences and for that matter is in the back of that bus, with thousands before him, coming up empty. This lack of success should tell us two things.

One, quit looking, if hard evidence is coming, it will drop in our laps (don't hold your breath) and

Ninshub

Let's eliminate a few scenarios since we certainly do not have enough hard evidence to meet the criteria for a scientific process. (...)

The argument I hear most often about AA not being spiritual is the violence, the horrifying elements, the grossness. This is baloney.

Go have an ayahuasca experience, or take four good pulls on a DMT pipe, and you will find horror, violence, grossness to the nth degree. Yet nearly everyone who has one will tell you it changed their lives, their life values and views and it was by any definition spiritual.

During the OBE/Astral Travel, the subconscious mind dictates the journey or our spirit overseers decide the events, typically with our subconscious approval, or some combination of both. This isn't for funsies like some kind of monstrous amusement park visit, it is for the spiritual experience. It is to learn, to grow, spiritually.

Then, one night about eleven o’clock.... I could hear an unusual buzzing sound and felt somehow different. Extending my arm, I reached for the wall in front of me. I stared in amazement as my hand actually
entered the wall; ... Looking around, I noticed a figure silently watching me from about ten yards away. Startled by his presence, I became frightened and instantly “snapped back” into my physical body... Excited, I sat up, my mind exploding with the realization of what had just occurred. I knew it was absolutely real, not a dream or my imagination. My entire ego awareness had been present...

Then, one night about eleven o’clock.... I could hear an unusual buzzing sound and felt somehow different. Extending my arm, I reached for the wall in front of me. I stared in amazement as my hand actually
entered the wall; ... Looking around, I noticed a figure silently watching me from about ten yards away. Startled by his presence, I became frightened and instantly “snapped back” into my physical body... Excited, I sat up, my mind exploding with the realization of what had just occurred. I knew it was absolutely real, not a dream or my imagination. My entire ego awareness had been present...

Sound familiar?

That is an excerpt from William Buhlman's first OBE from his book Adventures Beyond The Body.