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Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

I keep seeing people drop Wang's name in the Santata package but please answer me this:

Why would Minnesota in return for a guy they can't afford (Santana) want to a take Wang (another guy they won't be able to afford)?

Doesn't it make more sense that they would be looking for major league ready prospects that they can have cheap for a few years?

If for some reason they wouldn't want Wang...Wang would definitely have great value to another team looking for quality pitching. Cash could get a third team involved, that team would send prospects over to Minny in exchange for Wang + others and we land Santana.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

new rotation (no one over 28 yo except Andy, who will be replaced by either Joba or Hughes as the #2 after another year when their innings cap is removed):

Santana L
Andy L
Joba R
Hughes R
D-Train L

Much better than some of your earlier stuff, however we probably need to add an additional player for Santana (perhaps a Jackson) and that definitely won't be enough for Cabrera and Dontrelle. We will need to include a couple other prospects on that one and/or get a third team involved.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Originally Posted by Rocketbooster

Then why did the Peavy talks end once Hughes and Melky were brought up? I can assure you that Melky was not the deal breaker on that one......I do think Kennedy is probably still a trade candidate if he would be the centerpiece of a Peavy or Santana trade, but since the Pads and Twins would likely insist on Phil or Joba, those trades are going absolutely nowhere. I don't see anyway that Phil or Joba are traded.

Because Peavey is not Santana... and in my opinion, and apparently the opinion of the Yankees, not worth Joba or Phil.

I truly hope it doesn't cost us Phil, and especially not Joba - and definitely not both - but my guess is we are willing to part with one. Let's see. Man I would love to have Santana in stripes and locked up for the foreseeable future.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Originally Posted by Byron

I have no doubt that a lot of people are enamored with young arms that have potential - so much so that they would avoid trading them for elite, once in a decade type talent that could change the organization. This board in particular is full of this sentiment.

I'm pretty happy that Hank and Cash are not in that camp. Their quotes of late hint at a very intentional approach.

“And while no player is untouchable, some are more untouchable than others.”

“It’s pretty obvious which players we’re not going to trade. Chamberlain, Hughes and even Kennedy. Not for a position player.”

No one is untouchable, we won't trade them for position players. Translation: They are being rational about someone like Santana.

LOL. The way you set up the scenario is hilarious.

It's too bad your so enamored with an elite player on another team to the extent you don't appreciate the elite talent on your own. Younger, and for a helluva lot less money. Laughable really. You have built Santana up in your mind to an unrealistic status.

Thankfully, the orginization is not in that short sighted. If it were, that deal would have been done.

It's also hilarious you want to rush off our talent for a pitcher who will be be FA in a year. We have a chance to get him for money alone.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

new rotation (no one over 28 yo except Andy, who will be replaced by either Joba or Hughes as the #2 after another year when their innings cap is removed):

Santana L
Andy L
Joba R
Hughes R
D-Train L

I don't want Torii or Dontrelle at all. 32 year old Torii wants big money and years and Dontrelle Willis just had a 5.17 ERA in an extreme pitchers park with a delivery that a lot of people think will mean arm problems.

I'd still rather wait for Santana. We really don't have to have him this year. We're probably not going anywhere. Our youngsters need time to get their innings up. Let's just sign him as a FA. Yes, there's a chance it won't work out that nicely but I'd rather do that than give away talent. If I thought we were ready to make a run this year I might feel different.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Thankfully, the orginization is not in that short sighted. If it were, that deal would have been done.

It's also hilarious you want to rush off our talent for a pitcher who will be ba FA in a year. We have a chance to get him for money alone.

I admire everyone's complete faith in the ability of 20 year old prospects to both stay healthy and become the dominate pitchers of their generation. I really do, it is fun to have that much hope in young players. It is also unreasonable. No one can rationally guarantee that any of these guys stays healthy and becomes Santana-like. Maybe they will, they have the potential... maybe, potential.... yadda yadda, round and round.

Generally when a team parts with top of the line talent in a trade like this they do so either with the understanding that the two sides will work out a longterm deal OR they do so only after a long term deal is already in place. Usually you hearthings like, the terms of the trade have been agreed upon, now there is a grace period to allow team X to work out an extension with the player... once that is in place, the deal will be official.

There is no way the Yanks will part with any of our pitching prospects for a 1 year rental... I'm shocked that even has to be said.

Along the same lines, there is no guarantee what-so-ever, in fact I would say it is very unlikely, that Santana hits the open market next year. If the Twins do not sign him up, they will trade him to a team that will. It is a pipe dream to think you will get a crack at this player for only Money.

I don't see how anyone could "build up" Santana. He is the best pitcher in the league (apologies to Beckett), in his prime. Nothing more, nothing less.

And no, the Yanks would not have made this deal already if they could... because Santana was not on the market. The Twins have been trying to sign him long term. This winter will be the first time he is legitametly available since becoming the league's ace. And according to everything I am reading, it sounds like we will make a go at him. Thank goodness Cash and Stein are being rational.

I truly hope it doesn't cost us Phil, and especially not Joba - and definitely not both - but my guess is we are willing to part with one. Let's see. Man I would love to have Santana in stripes and locked up for the foreseeable future.

If Cash was smart he'd see which players the Twins want on other teams and see if WANG can get those players. The ship those players off , along with a few of ours for Santana.

The market for a proven 2 time 19 game winner in this pitching thin FA period could be VERY VERY GOOD.

This way we keep Joba and Hughes and probably Kennedy too. All guys who have higher ceilings than Wang.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Originally Posted by Dynasties R Forever

I don't want Torii or Dontrelle at all. 32 year old Torii wants big money and years and Dontrelle Willis just had a 5.17 ERA in an extreme pitchers park with a delivery that a lot of people think will mean arm problems.

I'd still rather wait for Santana. We really don't have to have him this year. We're probably not going anywhere. Our youngsters need time to get their innings up. Let's just sign him as a FA. Yes, there's a chance it won't work out that nicely but I'd rather do that than give away talent. If I thought we were ready to make a run this year I might feel different.

I like Willis and think he could have a resurgence here. He seems to have the moxy to florish in NY. If we lose out on Santana I'd go after him without giving up the big 3.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

IF I was GM I would try my hardest to make a trade with Tampa Bay and get Kazmir and Crawford. We have alot of good pitching prospects besides Kennedy, Hughes, or Chamberlain. Then I would go after Kosuke Fukudome and let Damon and let Abrau go he's not worth 16 mil for next year. Matsui would be my DH and Giambi would be unloaded for anything. My rotation would be Kazmir, Wang, Hughes, Chamberlin, and Kennedy or Ksrstens with Mussina in there also. I would bring Posada back to help with the young pitchers and also bring MO back. I would have Melky at CF, Crawford at LF and Fukudome in RF. I would also try to trade some younger pitching talent to get Cabrera for Florida but not Hughes or Chamberlien and also no for Melky. If cant get the trade thats fine ill play Betimet at 3B and wait till next year or at the all star break to get him. Also Justin Morneau will be a free agent next year and has said that he will not play with out Hunter and Santana because that makes it look like the Twins doesn't want to win. Thats why he didnt sign the extension last summer. He would be #1 on my list next year.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Originally Posted by Byron

I admire everyone's complete faith in the ability of 20 year old prospects to both stay healthy and become the dominate pitchers of their generation. I really do, it is fun to have that much hope in young players. It is also unreasonable.No one can rationally guarantee that any of these guys stays healthy and becomes Santana-like. Maybe they will, they have the potential... maybe, potential.... yadda yadda, round and round.

Generally when a team parts with top of the line talent in a trade like this they do so either with the understanding that the two sides will work out a longterm deal OR they do so only after a long term deal is already in place. Usually you hearthings like, the terms of the trade have been agreed upon, now there is a grace period to allow team X to work out an extension with the player... once that is in place, the deal will be official.

There is no way the Yanks will part with any of our pitching prospects for a 1 year rental... I'm shocked that even has to be said.

Along the same lines, there is no guarantee what-so-ever, in fact I would say it is very unlikely, that Santana hits the open market next year. If the Twins do not sign him up, they will trade him to a team that will. It is a pipe dream to think you will get a crack at this player for only Money.

I don't see how anyone could "build up" Santana. He is the best pitcher in the league (apologies to Beckett), in his prime. Nothing more, nothing less.

And no, the Yanks would not have made this deal already if they could... because Santana was not on the market. The Twins have been trying to sign him long term. This winter will be the first time he is legitametly available since becoming the league's ace. And according to everything I am reading, it sounds like we will make a go at him. Thank goodness Cash and Stein are being rational.

No one can guarantee anything about health I agree. That's why it's better if you don't have a lot of money tied up in one pitcher if he does go down.

I never said Phil or Joba would become the dominant pitchers of their generation. You're cute how you go out of your way to construct a strawman scenario. I appreciate the work, it doesn't get you anywhere but it's fun to read. It's simply a better value to hold on to the talent. A LOT younger, cheaper, possibly just as or almost as good...AND there's a decent chance we get Santana anyway as a FA next year.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Hughes + Melky + some spare parts and a window to sign an extension. That is as high as I think Cash will go and it will be a no brainer for him - problem is, I think other teams will be offering more. Again, did we learn the lesson from Boston?

Would be great if it were Wang + Kennedy + Melky... but no way Twins bite on that one.

Let's hope that all of this artificial build up of Kennedy has other GM's fooled... including him in the "untouchable" quotes is purely posturing.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Hughes + Melky + some spare parts and a window to sign an extension. That is as high as I think Cash will go and it will be a no brainer for him - problem is, I think other teams will be offering more. Again, did we learn the lesson from Boston?

You're not getting Santana for Hughes, a player the definition of fungible in Melky, and our scraps.

It's not rational in this market, with this player, and with the Twins' needs. Probably not even close to being so.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Hughes + Melky + some spare parts and a window to sign an extension. That is as high as I think Cash will go and it will be a no brainer for him - problem is, I think other teams will be offering more. Again, did we learn the lesson from Boston?

Would be great if it were Wang + Kennedy + Melky... but no way Twins bite on that one.

Let's hope that all of this artificial build up of Kennedy has other GM's fooled... including him in the "untouchable" quotes is purely posturing.

Just because giving up Hughes is a no-brainer for you does not mean that it's a no-brainer for Cash. I think you underestimate (a) Hughes and (b) how much Cash wants to hold onto him.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Originally Posted by Dynasties R Forever

I don't want Torii or Dontrelle at all. 32 year old Torii wants big money and years and Dontrelle Willis just had a 5.17 ERA in an extreme pitchers park with a delivery that a lot of people think will mean arm problems.

I'd still rather wait for Santana. We really don't have to have him this year. We're probably not going anywhere. Our youngsters need time to get their innings up. Let's just sign him as a FA. Yes, there's a chance it won't work out that nicely but I'd rather do that than give away talent. If I thought we were ready to make a run this year I might feel different.

agreed. bontrelle and torii are just not good enough for the money they would command.

as for santana, i wouldn't trade for him. sign him as a free agent next year if you want him.

Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Originally Posted by Byron

I admire everyone's complete faith in the ability of 20 year old prospects to both stay healthy and become the dominate pitchers of their generation. I really do, it is fun to have that much hope in young players. It is also unreasonable. No one can rationally guarantee that any of these guys stays healthy and becomes Santana-like. Maybe they will, they have the potential... maybe, potential.... yadda yadda, round and round.

Generally when a team parts with top of the line talent in a trade like this they do so either with the understanding that the two sides will work out a longterm deal OR they do so only after a long term deal is already in place. Usually you hearthings like, the terms of the trade have been agreed upon, now there is a grace period to allow team X to work out an extension with the player... once that is in place, the deal will be official.

There is no way the Yanks will part with any of our pitching prospects for a 1 year rental... I'm shocked that even has to be said.

Along the same lines, there is no guarantee what-so-ever, in fact I would say it is very unlikely, that Santana hits the open market next year. If the Twins do not sign him up, they will trade him to a team that will. It is a pipe dream to think you will get a crack at this player for only Money.

I don't see how anyone could "build up" Santana. He is the best pitcher in the league (apologies to Beckett), in his prime. Nothing more, nothing less.

And no, the Yanks would not have made this deal already if they could... because Santana was not on the market. The Twins have been trying to sign him long term. This winter will be the first time he is legitametly available since becoming the league's ace. And according to everything I am reading, it sounds like we will make a go at him. Thank goodness Cash and Stein are being rational.

This is one of the best posts on this thread. I can't believe how many people think that Santana is going to automatically hit the FA market next year.

Most likely the team that trades for him will be a big market team and they will insist a negotiation window to sign him. Also Santana doesnt strike me as the 'mercenary' type who want s to move around alot. He will most likely get a mega offer from that team.

Now where we differ is our evaluation of Hughes, sometimes you just have a gut feeling about someone b/c of the few things you see in their performances early on.

I believe based on the little of seen in the majors as well as minors, this kid is the real deal, to the point of becoming one of the next elite pitchers in this league.

The only wild card for me in this is health. But if he stays healthy and has his legs under him this year, we should see an even better version than the September and playoffs Hughes who was probably our best starting pitcher those two months in a pressure-ized environment.

Now do i trade him if he is the ONLY way at legitimately getting Santana? Only if I knew or strongly felt the team he was going to was going to sign him long term (which as afforementioned was probably likely).

AND only after every other scenario was exhausted including using Wang.

Im a strong believer in dominant pitching and Wang while very good IS not a dominant pitcher period. Also his track record while relatively small, has been spotty come October. Could it change under girardi and a new pitching coach? Perhaps...But I'd rather go with the higher ceiling ,less proven guy, especially if we land Santana to insert at the top of our rotation.

Wang , if we can't trade him directly to Minnesota, will net a HUGE bounty of prospects from some team in this pitching-thin market. We find out what prospects the Twins like, do a 3-way sending the prospects we get for Wang + others of our own and nab Santana while signing him to a long term extension.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Originally Posted by WWJD

This is one of the best posts on this thread. I can't believe how many people think that Santana is going to automatically hit the FA market next year.

Most likely the team that trades for him will be a big market team and they will insist a negotiation window to sign him. Also Santana doesnt strike me as the 'mercenary' type who want s to move around alot. He will most likely get a mega offer from that team.

Now where we differ is our evaluation of Hughes, sometimes you just have a gut feeling about someone b/c of the few things you see in their performances early on.

I believe based on the little of seen in the majors as well as minors, this kid is the real deal, to the point of becoming one of the next elite pitchers in this league.

The only wild card for me in this is health. But if he stays healthy and has his legs under him this year, we should see an even better version than the September and playoffs Hughes who was probably our best starting pitcher those two months in a pressure-ized environment.

Now do i trade him if he is the ONLY way at legitimately getting Santana? Only if I knew or strongly felt the team he was going to was going to sign him long term (which as afforementioned was probably likely).

AND only after every other scenario was exhausted including using Wang.

Im a strong believer in dominant pitching and Wang while very good IS not a dominant pitcher period. Also his track record while relatively small, has been spotty come October. Could it change under girardi and a new pitching coach? Perhaps...But I'd rather go with the higher ceiling ,less proven guy, especially if we land Santana to insert at the top of our rotation.

Wang , if we can't trade him directly to Minnesota, will net a HUGE bounty of prospects from some team in this pitching-thin market. We find out what prospects the Twins like, do a 3-way sending the prospects we get for Wang + others of our own and nab Santana while signing him to a long term extension.

However, I don't think the team will get a negotiating window. Most of these latest type of trades haven't include such a window. Furthermore, just because Santana gave the Twins a break the last time, it doesn't mean he's going to give his new team a break by not trying out free agency.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

Originally Posted by Yankees1962

However, I don't think the team will get a negotiating window. Most of these latest type of trades haven't include such a window. Furthermore, just because Santana gave the Twins a break the last time, it doesn't mean he's going to give his new team a break by not trying out free agency.

The yanks can throw a deal his way that will be on par or exceed what he'll get from another team in FA. this is the yanks. theyve been looking for a YOUNG stud pitcher for a LONGGGGGG time. if they can get him they arent going to let him go.

Quite truthfully, if it cost less in prospects, I'd RATHER sign him one year. B/C if he does well, we will outbid EVRYONE for him no doubt. If for some crazy reason he isnt a NY kind of guy and/or bombs, then we would have given up less for him.

Re: Revamp the Yanks Plan

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Hank Steinbrenner was clear on what the New York Yankees won't do to get Miguel Cabrera.

"It's pretty obvious which players we're not going to trade," the owner's son said Wednesday, before rattling off the team's most-prized young pitchers. "Chamberlain, Hughes and even Kennedy. Not for a position player."

"not for a position player"... like i said, for Johan u have to be willing to part w/1 of those kids