Report: ‘No evidence’ of racist statements by Covington Catholic students

February 13, 2019

5 Min Read

A video of Covington Catholic High School student Nick Sandmann, left, and Native American activist Nathan Phillips went viral after their encounter in Washington, D.C., on Jan. 18, 2019. Screenshot via YouTube

(RNS) — A third-party investigation into a controversial January encounter between a Native American group and students from a Kentucky Catholic high school concluded that there is “no evidence” of racist or offensive statements by the students.

Yet the same report, which was released on Wednesday (Feb. 13), also conceded that some students from Covington Catholic High School responded to a Native American man drumming and singing by performing the “tomahawk chop” used by some sports teams — an action many Native Americans find offensive.

Chase Iron Eyes, organizer of the Indigenous Peoples March, issued a statement in response to the report on Wednesday evening. He said he wasn’t surprised that the report “would fail to hold the students accountable for their behavior that day” along with parents and guardians. He also expressed frustration with a culture he described as lacking understanding about indigenous people.

“We are living in a nation where our president makes jokes about the Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee,” the statement read in part. “It’s possible that people within the Covington Catholic community are not willingly expressing racism, but as is clear from the report’s findings, there’s a lack of understanding about the racism inherent in the tomahawk chop.”

Bishop Joseph Foys, who heads up the Diocese of Covington that oversees the school, struck a very different tone in a statement posted on the diocesan website.

“I am pleased to inform you that my hope and expectation expressed in my letter to you of 25 January that the results of our inquiry into the events of 18 January at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. would ‘exonerate our students so that they can move forward with their lives’ has been realized,” Foys said.

Foys also said the firm that completed the report has no ties to the diocese or the school.

The report was commissioned by the Diocese of Covington after video of the incident went viral. Hours after the encounter, social media was awash with several clips depicting various parts of what transpired between groups near the Lincoln Memorial and the students, who had attended the anti-abortion March for Life demonstration earlier that day.

One video showed the students, many of whom were wearing “Make America Great Again” hats, being berated by a group of Black Hebrew Israelites before responding by loudly shouting school chants.

A group of men interacts with Covington Catholic High School students and other people on the National Mall on Jan. 18, 2019, in Washington. The group is thought to be a sect of Black Hebrew Israelites. Video screenshot

Another video showed the students being approached by Nathan Phillips, a Native American man who had attended the Indigenous Peoples March, also that day. Phillips later said he was trying to de-escalate the situation by chanting and playing a drum. He ended up standing face-to-face with a student later identified as Nick Sandmann.

Video of Phillips and Sandmann staring at each other, as the two were surrounded by Covington students, went viral.

A social media firestorm that played out over the weekend after the incident resulted in the diocese and others initially condemning the students’ behavior, only to later re-evaluate their approach and call for an investigation.

The subsequent report, which was prepared by Greater Cincinnati Investigation Inc. and dated Feb. 11, employed four investigators who pored over hours of video and interviews with witnesses. The report indicates they were not able to interview Sandmann or Phillips.

Investigators reported they found “no evidence of offensive or racist statements by students to Mr. Phillips or members of his group,” nor did they find evidence that the students chanted “Build the wall,” as Phillips initially claimed they did.

The report did note that some students used the “tomahawk chop,” but it was not immediately clear whether investigators did not consider the action a “statement” or whether they did not consider it offensive or racist.

The report also acknowledged a video of young men shouting at two women but said investigators could not confirm whether the students were from Covington. It was not immediately clear if investigators reached out to the woman who originally posted the video on Twitter.

In his statement, Foys defended the actions of the Covington students.

“Taking everything into account, our students were placed in a situation that was at once bizarre and even threatening,” Foys wrote. “Their reaction to the situation was, given the circumstances, expected and one might even say laudatory. These students had come to Washington, D.C. to support life. … Their stance there was surely a pro-life stance. I commend them.”

Since the incident, Phillips has offered to meet with the students and church officials to discuss the encounter, hoping to transform it into a “teachable moment.”

Religion News Service reached out to the diocese but did not immediately hear back.

Sorry, I’ve seen ‘tomahawk chops” on Hogan’s Heros and there were no indians to insult

” He also expressed frustration with a culture he described as lacking understanding about indigenous people.” very true

“It as is clear from the report’s findings, there’s a lack of understanding about the racism inherent in the tomahawk chop.” don’t watch Hogan’s Heros

“Investigators reported they found “no evidence of offensive or racist statements by students to Mr. Phillips or members of his group,” nor did they find evidence that the students chanted “Build the wall,” as Phillips initially claimed they did.”” Gosh, you mean young children in high school received death threats for nothing? Golly!

Having jumped into the fray with both feet not because of any evidence but because of personal animosity towards pro-life, Trump, manly men, Maga hats, and so on and so on, he triples down on the errors.

Any adult who puts a MAGA hat on a minor (or permits a MAGA hat on a minor in his or her charge) is an adult you need to defend yourself from. OF COURSE it’s racist, and sick, and snarky, and arrogant, and offensive, and exclusionary, and pugnacious. This kind of personal signage using a Trump-Trademarked phrase indicates people with anti-social attitudes toward a full half of other Americans. It indicates an endorsement of the thousands of lies emanating from the Trump campaign and presidency. For that reason it is basically a crime of impropriety to put this junk on kids. If churches and church people are going to insist on behaving in this deplorable manner, call them out on it. Catholics and Protestants, of all people, should know better but it’s becoming clear that many do not.

Re: “Foys also said the firm that completed the report has no ties to the diocese or the school.”

… except for having been paid by the diocese to generate it. Woops.

Re: “The report did note that some students used the ‘tomahawk chop,’ but it was not immediately clear whether investigators did not consider the action a ‘statement’ or whether they did not consider it offensive or racist.”

If they’re from Kentucky, then they likely are unaware it’s offensive. And they also very likely don’t care to be told that it is.

The “MAGA” hats are political.
The “OBAMA” T-Shirts are political.
The idiotic “P***Y HATS” are political.
The “RESIST” bumper-stickers are political.
The “BLACK LIVES MATTER” T-Shirts are political.

And I’ve seen young people displaying ALL that stuff. So stop whining, please. None of them constitute any threat or crime against you or anybody. None are racist per se. All of them are protected by the First Amendment, which is a national treasure that we hope you (and the very dubious Mr. Phillips) have not abandoned.

No, of course not. I’m just pointing out that being hired to do something is definitely a “tie” to the diocese/school. The implication a company that spontaneously came forward with a report and plopped it in the diocese’s metaphorical lap, just doesn’t make sense. That’s all.

Of all of the examples you give, the MAGA example is the only one that is dishonest about what it advocates. “Great Again” is code for “White Again”. Of course, people have a constitutional right to pretend otherwise or to delude themselves otherwise.

Racism? Maybe not. But the kids were sent there by their Catholic high school to demonstrate against women’s rights of conscience and religious liberty with regard to abortion. Isn’t that contempt for women’s rights just as bad as racism?

Cut the “Fetuses are not persons” crap. Abortionists are now willing to kill fully developed, viable children both seconds before – and even right after – they are born (see recent events in New York and Virginia.)

You can’t keep running that “they’re just a blob of cells” baloney. Abortionists have now dropped the mask, and are opening celebrating the murder of viable, fully formed, healthy human beings. It is clear now that that was always their end goal.

The report suggest otherwise based on chaperones ‘ perspective who did not see that they were under any threat. Shortly before bus time, 2 chaperones in fact did tell the students to back up. There is nothing in the report from a chaperone perspective affirming Sandman’s statement that he needed to defuse the situation. What I find truly surprising is that there were 16 adult chaperones. Or 1 chaperone for less than 3 students.

Hmmmm…. I see you went into jerk mode instead of following my line of reasoning.
Contrary to your statement, I do think it’s wrong to do the chop to an Indian if the intent is malicious.
The point of my question is that there are plenty of people who went after the Covington kids for being insensitive but have no problem doing it when they wear their team colors.

Of course they are, but how many of the list above were also worn while on a Catholic school trip to attend an event to “”End abortion by uniting, educating, and mobilizing pro-life people in the public square”, advocates for overturning Roe v. Wade. ” ? Politicizing diminishes unity at such an event and thus diminishes the intent of the March.

As a Catholic school trip, one wonders then about the words of Pope Francis in his 2015 speech to Congress where he counsels “The contemporary world, with its open wounds which affect so many of our brothers and sisters, demands that we confront every form of polarization which would divide it into these two camps.”.

My perspective is taken even further by the Bishop of the Diocese of Lexington who wrote ““It astonishes me that any students participating in a pro-life activity on behalf of their school and their Catholic faith could be wearing apparel sporting the slogans of a president who denigrates the lives of immigrants, refugees and people from countries that he describes with indecent words and haphazardly endangers with life-threatening policies ..”

However, the report does say that only some of the students attended because of faith while others wanted service hours or just to go to Washington so perhaps the MAGA hats were worn only by the latter group of students.

So what we have is proof that well connected parents of private school students have the resources to pay for their own official spin and PR. The report was not really by a third party investigator by a disinterested actor. It was done by “hired guns” of the people looking to deny and cover up events. If the report confirmed poor behavior of the students it would have been buried by the people hiring them for the job.

Participating in a march to protest the rampant killing of the weakest and most vulnerable of humans is highly commendable in every way.

Wearing a hat which advocates making America great again expresses a positive sentiment for the future of our country. Whether or not one considers that a commendable sentiment depends on whether or not one is sympathetic or hostile to America being made great again.

For teenagers – who are generally inexperienced and immature – they handled the situation remarkably well; far better than the adults who were aggressively taunting them with homophobic and racist slurs, and pounding a drum mere inches from their face.

It is a part of the normal course of human pregnancies, based on various biological factors which differ from case to case.
You should ask doctors about the biological specifics. If you don’t like the way our bodies are made, too bad. You are free to return yours to the soil at any time.

Miscarriages are different than the abortions which are performed by people, which are willful, voluntary, unnecessary, and done for convenience (and profit).

Since God is the intentional Creator of nature. it must be His intention to abort babies using the processes of nature. So the question still stands. Why does God himself abort a significant percentage of babies?

Should of could of would of? Yes, the BHI’s should not be racist a-holes. The Chief should not have gotten in their face.

And their response was to do school cheers and basically nothing else. Yea you’re right they really are the party at fault here. sarc/

The issue with the lawsuit is not whether folks could have done something else. It was deliberate reporting of a lie which resulted in the school closing doxing , death threats and calls to basically ruin these kids lives.

You mean BLM didn’t chant about killing cops? And some of their members have actually acted on that. P-Hats are so nice aren’t they. The P-Hat march was about killing babies and was lead by a bunch of anti-semites.

There are signs of aggressive and racist actions. That young man standing so close to the Indian, with that smirk on his face, is something he should be called on. It isn’t only the words. Sometimes it is MAGA hats and smirks.

I think the kids got involved in something they didn’t know how to handle. And they didn’t choose well. The MAGA hats did not help. Those hats don’t just stand for opposition to abortion – they also stand for a support for racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and an indifference to hurting others to get what one wants.

It is appalling that a bishop can be so obtuse. You can tell he never raised a child. There is a lesson here for those boys, caught in a situation they did not expect. Matching the ugliness you are given is not a solution Our Lord would approve.

“Those hats don’t just stand for opposition to abortion – they also stand for a support for racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and an indifference to hurting others to get what one wants.’

No they don’t mean what you want them to mean. And the whole point of the lawsuit is an indifference to hurting others. Projection? I’m sure Jesus would approve of the death threats, the threats to their futures, the doxing and the school having to close.

They actually mean “Make America Great Again” period. Its the USA , free speech,. The BHI’s were repulsive but I also support their right to be repulsive but they have the right to say it. Banging a drum one inch from my face I’m not be so supportive of.

oH, yes they do. That is how they are used. That is the hat that supports taking children from their parents at the border and not caring enough to even keep up with where they are sent. That is the hat that supports a war in Yemen that has turned into death for innocents because we want to make friends with the Saudi’s so they will support the fight against Iran so that those who are trying to find some justice for Palestinians will have no friends but Israel will. How many Yemeni children must die?

MAGA sets one against the other. It is absolutely anti-Christian. It denies the common humanity of all by saying we are better, more important. We all matter.

Re: “Hmmmm…. I see you went into jerk mode instead of following my line of reasoning.”

Hmmmm … I saw where you were going with your line of reasoning, and rightfully dismissed it as irrelevant. That it’s sometimes used at sporting events cannot and will never magically mean it can never be used in an offensive way.

Re: “Contrary to your statement, I do think it’s wrong to do the chop to an Indian if the intent is malicious.”

“Intent” is only part of the equation. Some people are so oblivious to how they treat certain groups, that they’re incapable of forming any discernible “intent” to offend them … they simply neither know nor care about that. At all.

Re: “The point of my question is that there are plenty of people who went after the Covington kids for being insensitive but have no problem doing it when they wear their team colors.”

I don’t know how much clearer I can be: Your point is irrelevant! That’s Ear. Rel. Uh. Vent. Say it with me: Ir-rel-e-vant.

When one does the tomahawk chop in the faces of native Americans, it will almost certainly offend them. Doing it at sporting events does not change that. It simply doesn’t!

FYI I wouldn’t even do it at a sporting event. But hey, that’s just me.

That’s not it, at all. Thanks for misrepresenting what I said. I was right about you: You are, in fact, rationalizing engaging in offensive behavior.

Re: “I’m surprised you would be agreeable to that; because I wouldn’t.”

I don’t agree with that at all ’cause that’s not what I said. Not even close! That’s just your intentional misstatement of what I said.

I already told you, I was WAAAAAAAY ahead of you. And I still am. I know what your game is: You want to make the “tomahawk chop” into some namby pamby thing that no one should be offended by, and when they are, it’s because they’re being unreasonable or something.

I get that being offensive is important to you. It’s how you deal with your own insecurities and inadequacies: You need to put others down in order to feel better about yourself. And when you do, you need to make it seem as though they are the ones who’re unreasonable and who’re (somehow, magically) oppressing you, should they call you out on your offensiveness.

I really get it. I’ve seen it before … and unfortunately will see a lot more of it in the future.

All the “whining” I hear is coming from the Progressive side of the aisle (about Conservatives’ degenerate morality). My CRITICISM is that claiming moral superiority is not an “argument” – it’s a preachment. Sermonistic denunciations may rouse or encourage the faithful. They do not advance the discussion. They’re not intended to. They’re intended to end it.

I actually think both are offensive. I was trying to have a discussion with you to get to some more detailed points that I was thinking about about whether the kids thought the chop was ok because being from the south; they probably have been around this from early on.
But you are waaaaay ahead of me to the point of being a dick; I’ll end it here.

You missed the point in terms of confusing politics and religion. As do apparently a lot of folks. Is the pro-life March faith based or political? Why quote the Bible in support of a position against abortion when the Bible is ignored with respect with what it says with respect to foreigners, sojourners and strangers?

And the ‘open-borders’ is not a solitary voice in the Catholic church.

Re: “I was trying to have a discussion with you to get to some more detailed points that I was thinking about …”

It’s not that hard to figure out what I said about this. I mean, really, it’s not. I will repeat: Doing the tomahawk chop in the faces of native Americans is very likely to offend them. All your irrelevant crap about Atlanta baseball games, cannot and will never magically change that. It just doesn’t. This is much simpler than you want it to be. And I get why: You’re muddying the issue in order to make it seem much less serious than it is, and to paint those who point out that the tomahawk chop can be offensive, as unreasonable for saying so, ’cause it happens at baseball games.

Re: “… whether the kids thought the chop was ok because being from the south …”

As Southerners from an extremely Right-wing area, yeah, I completely buy that they’re totally oblivious to the possibility that it’s offensive. Yup. I get that. I even pointed that out, too, when I said that some people are so coolly unaware of the offensive nature of things that they can’t even formulate a clear “intent” to offend.

That, however, doesn’t absolve them of any responsibility for their offensiveness. It means, instead, they need to grow up and understand what the hell they’re doing.

Re: “But you are waaaaay ahead of me to the point of being a dick; I’ll end it here.”

The person who’s trying to rationalize doing the tomahawk chop in the faces of native Americans, is calling me a “dick”? Wow. Pot, kettle, black, dude.

They were waiting for their friggin’ bus in a public place minding their own business.

The crazy man with the drum was breaking DC law by doing what he did, walking up into their faces and trying to get them either afraid or to move.

The only error made on the part of their chaperones was not having DC police in their phone directories. Native always keep the DC police number close at hand given the number of crazies per square mile.

Dude, you’re wasting your time. She bases everything on race and gender.
If the Covington kids would have been wearing rainbow or pu$$y hats; and the Indian drum banger guy came up to bother them – she’d be talking about how men are brutes.

He doesn’t.
Free will introduced sin into the world. Sin destroys everything.
There’s a difference between dying of cancer and being murdered – no?
Natural death vs death at the hands of another.
And you seem so smart….

“SOUTH BEND, Indiana, January 28, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – A famously pro-gay Catholic bishop is slated to lead an ‘LGBTQ retreat’ next weekend at the University of Notre Dame. “

“At the retreat, Bishop John Stowe of Lexington, Kentucky ‘will be integrating sexual orientation and faith from a Scriptural and Biblical perspective,’ according to an online description provided by the University’s Gender Relations Center (GRC). The University’s Campus Ministry is a cosponsor.”

“LifeSiteNews reached out to Bishop Stowe requesting an explanation of what it means to integrate ‘sexual orientation and faith,’ but he declined through his spokesman.”

Mark/Bob, the National Catholic Educational Association has reported that only 60% of teachers in Catholic high schools agree with the Vatican that abortions are always or usually immoral. Maybe you should worry about that instead of arguing with me. And the idea that the Covington kids were not sent by their school,is absurd.

Explain in simple English what bearing your poll might have on the unchangeable solemn teaching, almost 2,000 years old, of the Catholic Church that abortion is a most grievous offense against God and his laws.

Speaking of which, where can I get one of those? You know, “The MAGA hats”? Do they come in green? How about black? And is there a Swedish version? How about a non-alphabet version, say, in Hindi or Korean? And what’s the ugliest hat you’ve ever worn? Does your head fit all sizes of “The MAGA hats”?

You can dismiss Bishop Stowe but he certainly is not the only Catholic bishop to say the same. Hence the small excerpt from the Pope’s address to Congress. Only picked because he was local. And throwing out Bishop Stowe’s position on LGBTQ persons as a reason to dismiss does not change the point of intermingling politics at presumably an apolitical event.

Talking about tomahawk chops which Sandy nor you does not think is offensive but many, many American Indians do .

It appears you are inferring malicious intent with respect to Mr. Philips – I am glad you can apparently mind-read. And not after but later, he went to the Basilica. The Catholic News agency makes it clearer as to the reasons for this action.

The only reason why anyone, these children or anyone else, should consider the “tomahawk chop” offensive is if it is objectively offensive. While you assert “many American Indians do”, you have no evidence. You cited an article that made it clear it had no basis in Native American lore.

At that point we’re down to a choice:

Are we going to allow Permanently Offended Guys to about the country virtue-vetoing everything they happen to dislike?

Or are we going to suggest to them that they go in woods and tell the trees about it?

I personally vote for the latter.

More offensive by far is attacking high school students harming no one by applying this absurd ex post facto prissiness on them. It’s time for that to end.

As far as Phillips goes, the evidence at this point is that he and his friends made a trip to DC specifically to be disruptive. He has been claiming for some years to be a Vietnam War veteran, which he is not, he has been wearing medals and ribbons he did not earn, and appears to be a good candidate for a pysche evaluation at the VA.

These young boys were done with the March, getting ready to head home, minding their own business, waiting for a bus.

I would suggest to you, and to Bishop Stowe, and the rest of these nittering nabobs of negativism and paragons of pecksniffian that you drop it, even if you lack the integrity to admit you went off half-cocked and tried to virtue signal some kids into oblivion.

The cold fact is that you and your fellow left wing progressive virtue signalers find it offensive.

You find it offensive because it is convenient to find it offensive.

Having been made to look like fools – which you are – for piling on a mean erroneous spin on a tiny segment of a 2-hour series of events, you’re now trying to assemble a fig leaf to put over your stupidity.

People of character and integrity would ‘fess up, or at least say “oops!”, but noooo.

As Joseph Welch to Senator Joseph McCarthy June 9, 1954,”Let us not assassinate this lad further …. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?”

It may not be moral, but I personally think it’s quite funny when the libs try to co-opt “snowflake,” because every time it’s uttered it calls up the same image of sobbing and tantrumming Dems on the night of Nov 8 2016.

And will continue to do so until people no longer remember the Dems’ most embarrassing moment — which will be quite a while yet. 😀

You are advocating persecution right now. Looking for excuses to either ignore or support actions against the JWs. One does not denounce persecution by attacking its victims.

Nobody has to care if you or others consider their belief “erroneous”. They are being jailed for simply having a given set of religious beliefs. You are focusing on what can only be construed as an argument for either indifference to such persecution or support if it.

You contradict yourself and show your true intentions here. Showing concern for those persecuted doesn’t involve attacking their beliefs (which in general supports their persecutors). They involve showing some concern for the actions taken against them.

You apparently are saying in one form or another, its OK for groups to be persecuted for religious beliefs you consider “wrong”

I can’t help it if you do everything which points to supporting persecution. You make excuses for the regime doing it, play denial games and attack its victims. Its not mind reading, its just plain reading. Your canned excuses and equivocation lack credibility,

Yup. Said the “group” discussed invoking the 25th amendment. Rosenstein is going to be all over the news soon.
Admit it – this is right up there with Johnson having Kennedy killed.
Always the democrats up to no good.

One that became more apparent with the incompetent and irrational actions taken by our president since taking office. Including trying to invoke Emergency Powers because he couldn’t get his vanity project funded by Congress.

Admit it, you will make up any excuse to support some pretty objectively terrible things done by our current leaders and his party.

” this is right up there with Johnson having Kennedy killed.”

LMAO! In the future, write your posts before consuming intoxicants, not afterwards.

I’ve always noticed the people most likely to be fetus worshipers are those who support all sorts of nastiness against people in general.

One would think its somehow a contradiction or hypocrisy. But that is only if one is fooled into thinking their position is based on concern for life.

It never has to do with “protecting the unborn”. It has to do with the inherent actions taken to do so, turning a woman’s body into property of the state. Hostility towards the rights and loves of people. Just like every other part of their social agenda.

That and acting like a horse’s posterior whenever possible and trolling opponents with proclamations of their self perceived delusions of moral authority.

Nastiness is killing innocent life.
Everything else means nothing if you don’t worry about life.
You find offensive the visual of a teenager smirking at an Indian.
I find offensive the visual of a baby in the womb squirming as forceps are jammed into its head as it’s life is to be taken.
Don’t even try to use the word nasty.

Much like what you advocate for women who have troubled pregnancies. Its amazing how you look for excuses not to show concern for people.

Nastiness is supporting attacks on people, not just worrying about the “innocent”.

I find offense in expressions of bigotry. Stuff you make excuses for.

“I find offensive the visual of a baby in the womb squirming as forceps are jammed into its head as it’s life is to be taken. ”

Which means you are offended by fictional things. Babies are born.

You have zero concern for people, so frankly your outrage here is phony posturing. Not buying it. You are not offended by it at all. You revel in it and love talking about it. It makes you feel important and full of self-righteous glee.

People concerned with life don’t advocate turning people into property of the state as you would.

Let’s not forget to mention how trump derangement syndrome (the triggering hats) were used as a trigger with the alleged assault on Jussie smollett.
He refers to the hat in the “attack”.
Turns out the whole thing is a hoax perpetrated by Jussie and his buddies.
Sad.

That young man was standing there too close to be anything but aggressive and with a smirking grin on his face – his action was aggressive. There was another choice he could have made. he and his friends could have left. Oh, and where were the chaperones? You know, the adults who were supposed to be helping these kids deal with a crowd of people that included those who agree with them and those who don’t?

These kids need to have someone tell them their behavior was wrong. They don’t need to have adults encourage them to do the same thing all over again. They need to hear from adults about alternative ways to behave.

No, making America great is good. But being great is not fomenting hatred and fear based on religion, especially that hatred aimed against Jewish people and people of Islam, nor ethnic origin, especially Hispanic people, nor skin color, especially when applied to Black Americans. And that is what Trump has fomented with the way he has used the MAGA idea. He has tied it to racism and xenophobia by what he has said, done, and failed to do.

Don’t play innocent. You know it as well as I do. Don’t defend the indefensible. Or, do you really agree with Trump’s idea of what will make America great is to keep people from #$&*-hole countries out of the U.S.? Go ahead and admit it if you do. But don’t claim to be a follower of Jesus or a believer in the ideals of this country.

New York State law formerly allowed late term abortions when the mother’s life was at risk.

Now that has been changed to “when the procedure is necessary to protect the patient’s life or health”, a much more malleable phrase which could easily cover all sorts of reasons in the hands of a complicit “health care professional”.

Yep, the new law is going to be a gold mine for abortion providers as well as “health care professionals” who will be well paid coming up with all sorts of specious reasons as to why an abortion is “needed” for the “health” of the patient.

But is is amusing that they say “patient” and not “mother”. Why avoid the obvious term “mother”? Do they envisage a scenario when they would be giving an abortion to a “father”?

And you’ve run out of names to call, so you keep repeating the stale, feckless ones you’ve already used up.
My “point” has been made repeatedly. But since the point was that you are a self-righteous, sanctimonious poser, who makes virtue-signaling a surrogate for argument — I can see why you might be reluctant to actually engage it.

I have not run out of names to call you. But you never had much to say about how accurate they are. Only that you are annoyed at the labels. Lazy garbage to say the least. If you don’t like being labeled a bigot, refute its accuracy. Don’t complain about the label.

and prevented abortions when the fetus has no chance of survival outside of the womb .

yep,
the new law is a gold mine for the anti-abortion groups who will fun

raise the heck out of their misrepresentations of the law .

do
you really think that a pregnant woman is going to wait for the last
moment of a pregnancy to terminate ? that someone in the 30th or 35th
week will without serious problem would then say ‘oh, gosh, i guess i
really don’t want to have a child’ ?

what

is the case is this right wing nonsense happens because the argument for
abortion generally has been lost by those opposed . so we now get the
ad hominem arguments with raw emotion but no reality .

if
you want fewer abortions, support better and effective contraception .

If my name was Little Bo Peep, it would have no relevance whatsoever to what I post. The reason why you harp on it, as do a couple of others, is that you’re trying to avoid looking like you’re losing every discussion, which of course you are.

For those who wonder, “basura” is Spanish for “trash”. Edd when he was still contributing to society taught high school Spanish.

Edd does like to dress up his comments with irrelevant quotes from Jefferson, and now a little Spanish, but as they say in Spanish “La mona aunque se vista de seda, mona se queda.”

While I wait for some novelty in your imprecations, your dedication to missing the point would be admirable – if it were applied to an honorable purpose. For the nth time: I don’t care WHAT you call me; I care THAT you push your moral posturing forward as a substitute for rhetoric. It’s not.

Behind all the blather about “women’s rights” and “health care for women” lies the harsh reality that abortion is the unjust killing of innocent humans, which constitutes one of the greatest human rights violations of the current age.

The slander that he hates Hispanic or Black Americans is just that, a slander. Your side tied MAGA it to racism and xenophobia as a propaganda tool, and now – like the false narrative on these young men – are stuck with defending it.

Don’t defend the indefensible, beating on minors to satisfy irrational fears aimed at the President.

These young men should be enjoying the best years of their lives, not getting death threats thanks to over-the-top false accusations that, in face of the facts, should drop but are being kept alive by haters and biddies.

That young man was standing still. The taller much older man with a weapon in his hand using it to beat a drum closed the distance between himself and young man, so if they were too close, blame the loony.

The chaperones thought the boys were doing what they were supposed to do – standing waiting for their bus. They did not approach either the lunatic in their face or the blacks hurling insults.

Someone needs to tell you, Bill Lindsey, Alexandra, et al that there was nothing wrong with their behavior, to put a sock in it, to knock off the posing, and join the rest of the world in ‘fessing up it was a propaganda stunt that backfired.

Alan Morton Dershowitz is an American lawyer and academic. He is a scholar of United States constitutional law and criminal law, a noted civil libertarian and at Harvard Law School at the age of 28 he became the youngest full professor of law in its history.

A political liberal, he is the author of a number of books about politics and the law,

Some of the references used to prepare The Great Kibosh of All Religions:

1. Historical Jesus Theories,
earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html – the names of many of the
contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the titles of their over 100 books
on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings,
earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication–

0-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q

50-60 1 Thessalonians

50-60 Philippians

50-60 Galatians

50-60 1 Corinthians

50-60 2 Corinthians

50-60 Romans

50-60 Philemon

50-80 Colossians

50-90 Signs Gospel

50-95 Book of Hebrews

50-120 Didache

50-140 Gospel of Thomas

50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel

50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ

65-80 Gospel of Mark

70-100 Epistle of James

70-120 Egerton Gospel

70-160 Gospel of Peter

70-160 Secret Mark

70-200 Fayyum Fragment

70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs

73-200 Mara Bar Serapion

80-100 2 Thessalonians

80-100 Ephesians

80-100 Gospel of Matthew

80-110 1 Peter

80-120 Epistle of Barnabas

80-130 Gospel of Luke

80-130 Acts of the Apostles

80-140 1 Clement

80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians

80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews

80-250 Christian Sibyllines

90-95 Apocalypse of John

90-120 Gospel of John

90-120 1 John

90-120 2 John

90-120 3 John

90-120 Epistle of Jude

93 Flavius Josephus

100-150 1 Timothy

100-150 2 Timothy

100-150 T-itus

100-150 Apocalypse of Peter

100-150 Secret Book of James

100-150 Preaching of Peter

100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites

100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans

100-160 Shepherd of Hermas

100-160 2 Peter

4. Jesus Database,http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html –”The JESUS DATABASE is an
online a-nnotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings
of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era.
It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to
the traditions found within the Christian New Testament.”

You are right. I sent two letters, one to Bishop Foys and one to Rev. Muller. Both tried to defend the boys and the school with ridiculous arguments. I pointed out the errors: 1. attending the “March for Life” as a school sanctioned trip 2. Wearing MAGA hats was a provocative act, asking for trouble 3. being advised by the adult with them to respond with school chants 4. not using the issue as a teaching/educational moment to discuss what went wrong

EDD DOERR (January 22, 2019): “DNA co-discoverer Francis Crick … whom I knew personally … was among the 12 Nobel laureates and 155 other scientists who advised the Supreme Court years ago that human personhood was not possible until permitted by brain development some time after 28-32 weeks of gestation.”

FRANCIS CRICK (quoted by Matt Ridley, 2006): “In the long run, it is unavoidable that society will begin to worry about the character of the next generation … It is not a subject at the moment which we can tackle easily because people have so many religious beliefs and until we have a more uniform view of ourselves I think it would be risky to try and do anything in the way of EUGENICS … I would be astonished if, in the next 100 or 200 years, society did not come round to the view that they would have to try to improve the next generation in some extent or one way or another.”

THE AMERICAN COUNCIL ON SCIENCE AND HEALTH (September 29, 2016): “[Jim] Watson And Crick Did Not Discover DNA”!

As both the pictures and video illustrate, this boy was standing there. It was Nathan Phillips who closed the distance from afar, who got and stayed in the boy’s face.

“smirking”

Bemused. If you’re from town of 40,000 or so you’ve never seen a man inches taller than you, 55 years older than you, dressed like something from a movie, walk up to you banging on a drum, and get in your face.

“And, he could have backed off.”

And why should he? Why should a citizen minding his own business waiting for a bus have to do anything but continue to wait for his bus?

“He also had choices. That is what he needs to understand.”

He did make choices. He choose not to move. That is what a citizen conducting himself lawfully in a public space does. It is what I would have done.

You’re the one who needs to understand.

“He made an uncomfortable situation worse, not better.”

He did nothing. He did not one thing.

“I want these kids to understand what they did wrong.”

No, you want to pretend you and your friends did not make an egregiously bad call.

These boys added to a tense situation. What they need to learn is how to handle that kind of situation without adding to tension and ugliness. Don’t excuse their bad behavior and deny them a chance to learn.

Trump’s tactic in the Middle East is to create hatred of those who don’t support Israel. Shoot, Trump makes it a point to create hatred. it is a tool he uses to manipulate people. But the cost in making friends of Saudi Arabia, is supporting the killing thousands of innocents in Yemen, defending Saudi leadership in the brutal killing of an American resident.
Don’t forget that the radical Saudi’s produced Osama bin Laden – remember him? Trump may get us out of Syria – but we will again have enormous instability, made worse by breaking the international agreement regarding Iran and by supporting the Saudi’s in Yemen.

I want Israel to exist. But I want there to be room for the people who lived in what was called Palestine when the Jewish State was established. Don’t have the answer but do know that what is being done by Israel is not creating a place for Palestinians. It will not help the Palestinians to make a target of Iran. I do think that Jerusalem needs to be an international city – not “owned” by Israel, but co-managed along with Christians and Muslims, for whom this city is also sacred. Recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is not helping.

The “Diocese of Covington naturally dismisses the video of the MAGA-hat wearing teens yelling at women on the mall….because that is what these brats…er…teenagers were sent to Washington to do…participate in the March For Forced Birth and tell grown-up women what to do with their bodies. It’s called “misogyny” my dear celibate males in long funny dresses.

This Diocese also seems to have ignored the video of one young man clearly saying that: “it’s not rape if you enjoy it”. Such a typical catholic high school male…taught that women are inferior beings, only put on this earth to breed.

You call that “rigorous historic testing”? It’s a loose listing of some people who agree with you. The fact that a Theophobe can find other Theophobes to join with in trashing God, means… what, exactly? “Misery loves company” would be my answer.

20. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by title with the
complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html

21. Luke and Josephus- was there a c-onnection?

in-fidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html

22. NT and beyond time line:

pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/

23. St. Paul’s Time line with discussion of important events:

harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm

24. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan’s books and
those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and
selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at
Google Books.

25. Father Edward Schillebeeckx’s words of wisdom as found in his
books.

I noted the references. As it happens, I’ve already read “all the gospels and epistles of the NT.” And I’m already familiar with Crossan, Funk, Ehrman, and many others of their ilk. Surely you understand they’re advancing scholarly opinions, which, in turn, are reviewed, rebutted, and rejected by (the opinions of) other scholars, right? Their debate continues to this very hour. Theophobic musings don’t become “rigorous historic” anything just because they come from historians – and seem to support your preconceived convictions.

But I have to question if you’ve read your own references. Specifically, the article on “The Gnostic Jesus” you cited is by Douglas Groothuis. Groothuis happens to be a friend of mine, and a dedicated Christian advocate and apologist. His article simply details known historical facts about gnostic beliefs, and critiques them from a Christian point of view. Nothing in his material lends support in any way, for any position you have taken.

How did you come on that article in the first place (are you a regular reader of the Christian Research Journal, where it was published)? And why did you think including it in your list would bolster any point you were trying to make?

Summaries such as The Great Kibosh of All Religions requires evaluation of all documentation related to the founders of all the religions. That is why the studies of Groothuis, Brown, Johnson and Wright are included in the historic Jesus section.

With respect to rigorous historic testing: It does not include the beliefs of the NT exegetes. It includes the number of independent attestations, the time of the publications, the content as it
relates to the subject and time period, and any related archeological evidence.
Professors JD Crossan and G. Ludemann’s studies are top notch in this regard.

I realize you’d like to give the impression you know what you’re talking about with an inflated “document dump.”

But the question remains why you even included Groothius’s article on your list, because the fact remains that its relationship to anything we were discussing (or any point you’re wanting to make) is zero. It’s an apparently random and completely extraneous presentation of standard historical information about an unrelated (except for the time-period) subject. If that’s what you want to present as an example of “rigorous historical” investigation to invalidate religion, it suggests that your entire list is padded with irrelevances just to create a fatiguing volume of information.

The Great Kibosh Quash:

As for Crossan, Funk, and the “Jesus Seminar” – they are a joke. They and their controversial methods are NOT held in high regard by scholars on the other side of that debate. The fact that you DO hold them in high regard only shows that you have joined one side of an ongoing partisan polemic that is not likely to be settled in our lifetime – or in other words, that you have committed yourself to a set of disputed OPINIONS in a continuing controversy. Quit pretending (to the rest of us) that they’re established facts. You can keep pretending that to yourself, of course…as you undoubtedly will. I’m sure it’s a great comfort in a troubling world.

The Jesus Seminarians: Contemporary NT exegetes specializing in historic Jesus studies. Requirements to join, typically a PhD in Religious History or Religion with a proven record of
scholarship through reviews of first to third century CE scripture and related
documents.

Did they ask you to join?

The ground-breaking work of the Jesus Seminar appears in two texts: The Five
Gospels (1993) and Acts of Jesus (1998), both published by Polebridge Press.
The Jesus Seminar was a group of biblical scholars chaired by Robert Funk, PhD.,(now deceased)
who took the unprecedented step of voting as a group on the authenticity of the
teachings and acts of Jesus. The following observations are taken from the
introductory chapters of 5G and AOJ.

Every individual saying and action was examined and rated by the Seminar as to
whether Jesus actually said it or did it, or whether it was primarily the
product of the author of the gospel. Building on the earlier work of individual
scholars, the Seminar’s research represents an unprecedented cooperative effort
to separate what Jesus really said and did from what gets added on over time in
the story telling and writing process.

In addition to the four Gospels: Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, that we have
known for two thousand years, the Seminar also included the Gospel of Thomas in
their considerations. Thomas consists of sayings of Jesus that were discovered
at Nag Hamadi, along with hundreds of other ancient texts, in a major
archeological discovery in 1945. Thomas is not in story form, but it is a
series of sayings. Many of the sayings are very similar to what appear in the
other four gospels, and it was used by the Seminar as an independent report of
what Jesus said.

I’m waiting to hear something I don’t know already.
PhDs have religious opinions too, and the Jesus Seminar defends theirs vigorously.
But they’re still “opinions” – not “facts.”
Your “Kibosh” is not a dismissal of anything, it’s a statement of dismissive attitudes…period.

The whole Jesus story, the foundation of the mythology of Christianity, is utter nonsense from the get-go. How is it again that your purportedly omnipotent being, your “god” couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus-on-sticks hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers?

Furthermore, 2000+ years without a peep from the sky fairy of your god myths is more than sufficient grounds to reject your Christian tall tales. For that matter, why is it that your “god” can’t respond to clear up the sincere disagreement here about his instructions, or even his own existence? Your sky fairy never made it to the digital, networked world; he can’t even produce his own website, nor even respond in a forum.

The whole Jesus story, the foundation of the mythology of Christianity, is utter nonsense from the get-go. How is it again that your purportedly omnipotent being, your “god” couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus-on-sticks hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers?

Furthermore, 2000+ years without a peep from the sky fairy of your god myths is more than sufficient grounds to reject your Christian tall tales. For that matter, why is it that your “god” can’t respond to clear up the sincere disagreement here about his instructions, or even his own existence? Your sky fairy never made it to the digital, networked world; he can’t even produce his own website, nor even respond in a forum.

Furthermore, 2000+ years without a peep from the sky fairy of your god myths is more than sufficient grounds to reject your Christian tall tales. For that matter, why is it that your “god” can’t respond to clear up the sincere disagreement here about his instructions, or even his own existence? Your sky fairy never made it to the digital, networked world; he can’t even produce his own website, nor even respond in a forum.

do you consider a contraceptive that prevents a zygote from implanting in the uterus to be abortion ?

“…unjust killing of innocent humans….”

respectfully that also is blather . “human” is a broad word, not necessarily referring to a living human being . in this case you are using the word to suggest that the fetus growing toward birth is morally the same as the born living and breathing human . you believe that, i don’t .

innocent is a legal word not meaningfully applied to not yet fully formed and yet unable to conceptualize . without the ability to think as an adult human, everything is “innocent” .

the wars and ethic tensions that force people to leave looking for safety and the yet millions who die : that is the great human rights violations today .

Any deliberate human interference after the conception of a human being that results in their death is a wrongful killing.

We are human from conception to death, regardless of our age and developmental status. This is what we Christians have traditionally believed. You may believe otherwise, but that will not deter us from believing and acting in defense of what we see as human rights.

Innocent can be properly applied to any human who is not guilty of doing anything wrong.

Wars and ethnic tensions are indeed great human rights violations.

That does not negate the fact that abortion is also a great human rights violation, responsible for approximately 56,000,000 deaths each year.