'McCain is old'. blah - same crap. Why does it matter? Do news shows have nothing else to talk about?

Using the Social Security Administration's own life expectancy table, McCain has a 15.2% chance of dying in his first term and a 37.25% chance of dying within two terms. This, of course, does not take into account McCain's own medical history (both good and bad), nor the effects of the stress caused by the job, nor the effects of the ravages of time on the mind. Using the same table, Obama has a 1.85% chance of dying while in his first term.

While age certainly won't decide my vote, 15% is statistically important enough to be a factor worth discussing.

EDIT: Interestingly enough, the AP has a piece on the racial issue today.

He's still qualified to run, though. He's a sell-out buttyboy, but he is qualified. Age discrimination is a big issue where I live (and impacts my folks in their old age) and it's something that really ticks me off. It's wrong. He's old enough for age to be a concern, but not enough to impact a vote - it's not like he's driving his cars into other people's houses due to age. Also, with that entourage and the best socialized medicine money can buy, he'll be fine. Someone not voting for McCain due to age, to me, is just as bad as someone not voting for Obama because he's black... If McCain was too old or not fit to run, he wouldn't have.

One of the things that I think is going to happen more, as we are already seeing it, is that people will label opposition to Obama as being linked to some type of racism from the person who dislikes Obama. We have already seen it in this thread where MSD has basically been called a racist by more then one person. One can have not a shred of racism in them and still think Obama would be a horrible failure as a president. But the racism card will be played by some Obama supporters to try and shame people who oppose him, and that is going to be quite sad to see.

No. MSD was passingly associated with racists by one person. No one else has come close. The problem MSD has is that in national campaigns that have garnered huge amounts of attention, conservative groups, generally republican-leaning in focus, have made a science of trashy thinly veiled innuendo and smears over the past couple of decades. Because of that, fairly or not, Obama supporters are going to be hyper-sensitive to such activities.

It's not to say that left-leaning and Democratic-party supporting groups haven't indulged in the same behavior - but it's the conservatives that have really abused this kind of politics repeatedly IMHO.

Quote

Paraphrasing msduncan: "It's not okay for Senator Obama to warn people about Republican tactics until we've deployed them more widely."

It seems you're just angry that your ilk aren't getting a free pass to promote their unique brand of sleaze under cover of darkness.

Neither of those comments were very subtle in calling MSD a racist, so im not sure where you get that just one person 'passingly' associated with being a racist, as both those quotes were quite clear in making that attack.

And again it was Clinton and her supporters who first started on the racial tones against Obama, but repubs of course are the ones who seem to be getting all the blame for any racial tones to this campaign season.

One of the things that I think is going to happen more, as we are already seeing it, is that people will label opposition to Obama as being linked to some type of racism from the person who dislikes Obama. We have already seen it in this thread where MSD has basically been called a racist by more then one person. One can have not a shred of racism in them and still think Obama would be a horrible failure as a president. But the racism card will be played by some Obama supporters to try and shame people who oppose him, and that is going to be quite sad to see.

No. MSD was passingly associated with racists by one person. No one else has come close. The problem MSD has is that in national campaigns that have garnered huge amounts of attention, conservative groups, generally republican-leaning in focus, have made a science of trashy thinly veiled innuendo and smears over the past couple of decades. Because of that, fairly or not, Obama supporters are going to be hyper-sensitive to such activities.

It's not to say that left-leaning and Democratic-party supporting groups haven't indulged in the same behavior - but it's the conservatives that have really abused this kind of politics repeatedly IMHO.

Quote

Paraphrasing msduncan: "It's not okay for Senator Obama to warn people about Republican tactics until we've deployed them more widely."

It seems you're just angry that your ilk aren't getting a free pass to promote their unique brand of sleaze under cover of darkness.

Neither of those comments were very subtle in calling MSD a racist, so im not sure where you get that just one person 'passingly' associated with being a racist, as both those quotes were quite clear in making that attack.

And again it was Clinton and her supporters who first started on the racial tones against Obama, but repubs of course are the ones who seem to be getting all the blame for any racial tones to this campaign season.

That would be a better post if the Republicans weren't famous for using sleazy tactics, and not just racism.

Logged

Tune in to hear me spout nonsense about Fantasy Football every Thursday evening at 6:08.

'McCain is old'. blah - same crap. Why does it matter? Do news shows have nothing else to talk about?

Using the Social Security Administration's own life expectancy table, McCain has a 15.2% chance of dying in his first term and a 37.25% chance of dying within two terms. This, of course, does not take into account McCain's own medical history (both good and bad), nor the effects of the stress caused by the job, nor the effects of the ravages of time on the mind. Using the same table, Obama has a 1.85% chance of dying while in his first term.

While age certainly won't decide my vote, 15% is statistically important enough to be a factor worth discussing.

EDIT: Interestingly enough, the AP has a piece on the racial issue today.

He's still qualified to run, though. He's a sell-out buttyboy, but he is qualified. Age discrimination is a big issue where I live (and impacts my folks in their old age) and it's something that really ticks me off. It's wrong. He's old enough for age to be a concern, but not enough to impact a vote - it's not like he's driving his cars into other people's houses due to age. Also, with that entourage and the best socialized medicine money can buy, he'll be fine. Someone not voting for McCain due to age, to me, is just as bad as someone not voting for Obama because he's black... If McCain was too old or not fit to run, he wouldn't have.

I agree 100%. Age discrimination is a bad thing. Which is why I wouldn't exempt people over 65 from paying taxes nor would i give them special medical benefits, among other discriminatory practices.

One of the things that I think is going to happen more, as we are already seeing it, is that people will label opposition to Obama as being linked to some type of racism from the person who dislikes Obama. We have already seen it in this thread where MSD has basically been called a racist by more then one person. One can have not a shred of racism in them and still think Obama would be a horrible failure as a president. But the racism card will be played by some Obama supporters to try and shame people who oppose him, and that is going to be quite sad to see.

No. MSD was passingly associated with racists by one person. No one else has come close. The problem MSD has is that in national campaigns that have garnered huge amounts of attention, conservative groups, generally republican-leaning in focus, have made a science of trashy thinly veiled innuendo and smears over the past couple of decades. Because of that, fairly or not, Obama supporters are going to be hyper-sensitive to such activities.

It's not to say that left-leaning and Democratic-party supporting groups haven't indulged in the same behavior - but it's the conservatives that have really abused this kind of politics repeatedly IMHO.

Quote

Paraphrasing msduncan: "It's not okay for Senator Obama to warn people about Republican tactics until we've deployed them more widely."

It seems you're just angry that your ilk aren't getting a free pass to promote their unique brand of sleaze under cover of darkness.

Neither of those comments were very subtle in calling MSD a racist, so im not sure where you get that just one person 'passingly' associated with being a racist, as both those quotes were quite clear in making that attack.

And again it was Clinton and her supporters who first started on the racial tones against Obama, but repubs of course are the ones who seem to be getting all the blame for any racial tones to this campaign season.

The first comment concerns MSD's acceptance of political tactics and in no way calls him racist. The second is the passing association I referred to. I think you're reaching here.

And the fact that Obama faced these tactics in the primary is irrelevant to the fact that he will face them again now.

One of the things that I think is going to happen more, as we are already seeing it, is that people will label opposition to Obama as being linked to some type of racism from the person who dislikes Obama. We have already seen it in this thread where MSD has basically been called a racist by more then one person. One can have not a shred of racism in them and still think Obama would be a horrible failure as a president. But the racism card will be played by some Obama supporters to try and shame people who oppose him, and that is going to be quite sad to see.

No. MSD was passingly associated with racists by one person. No one else has come close. The problem MSD has is that in national campaigns that have garnered huge amounts of attention, conservative groups, generally republican-leaning in focus, have made a science of trashy thinly veiled innuendo and smears over the past couple of decades. Because of that, fairly or not, Obama supporters are going to be hyper-sensitive to such activities.

It's not to say that left-leaning and Democratic-party supporting groups haven't indulged in the same behavior - but it's the conservatives that have really abused this kind of politics repeatedly IMHO.

Quote

Paraphrasing msduncan: "It's not okay for Senator Obama to warn people about Republican tactics until we've deployed them more widely."

It seems you're just angry that your ilk aren't getting a free pass to promote their unique brand of sleaze under cover of darkness.

Neither of those comments were very subtle in calling MSD a racist, so im not sure where you get that just one person 'passingly' associated with being a racist, as both those quotes were quite clear in making that attack.

And again it was Clinton and her supporters who first started on the racial tones against Obama, but repubs of course are the ones who seem to be getting all the blame for any racial tones to this campaign season.

That would be a better post if the Republicans weren't famous for using sleazy tactics, and not just racism.

Yep only republicans use dirty campaign tactics. Sometimes the partisan slant of this board is appaling.

You are arguing a point that no one is making, with the exception of the two posters who are blindly loyal to the democrats.

There's no one here who's "blindly loyal to the democrats," even me. I've voted for republicans for state office in the past, and would do so in the future if there were a qualified candidate with good ideas. I'm sure you can't say the same about msduncan voting for a democrat.

In the modern political era, the republicans codified racist politics into their platform. That's a fact, not an opinion.

The neocon arm of the Republican party built it's core over racism fear mongering (before the democrats owned it prior, especially in the south). It's pretty well documented and runs back to HW Bush's run for Senate back in the 60s. A bunch of 'country club' Republicans were able to turn a tiny party in Texas into a major contender through such tactics, it's the base of the party's votes...

But Obama is correct in what he is saying. Any idiot can figure out any opponent he goes up against will have people working behind the scenes to make him look like a 'terrorist' or play up the fact he's black - and associates with 'black radicals', the scariest people on the planet! Other democrats have used his race and upbringing against him indirectly tons already - I don't know why it's so shocking to hear him saying that. Actually - it's redundant for him to say. Everyone knows that's the best way to beat him - since it's always worked due to our national retardation and hypocracy that we are 'all created equal'. This country has come a long way in terms of race/gender/religion, but it's nowhere near the bullshit we're fed. He's black, his middle name is "Hussein" and I've seen both references enough to make me sick to my stomach. He's a man, just like McCain -- and he's running for President, that's all that SHOULD matter, but for some reason that has nothing to do with what's going on. 'McCain is old'. blah - same crap. Why does it matter? Do news shows have nothing else to talk about?

No they don't. All of the new organizations make their living from filling time on cable stations that run continuously 24 hours a day. The networks, on the flip side, constantly try to steal attention and ratings from the cable stations in the shorter time they have airtime to talk. This is asking for dumb things to be said, and dumb ideas to be covered.

And worse yet, dumb things for us to get pissed off about and yap about on the internet heh. It's funny because it's true. I bet our discourse on the boards was a lot better a few years+ back. I mean, the bickering/partisan crap went on, but it seems like more talk on issues went on - and that was really helpful to get a good perspective on something. It seems stupid news stories fan the flames now almost exclusively.

At any rate, I really wish the race/"Hussein"/McCain age issues would just go away already and they focus on issues - that's what it SHOULD be about. At least there's been some good debate on energy and the economy (well, for this stage of the game) recently.

He's still qualified to run, though. He's a sell-out buttyboy, but he is qualified. Age discrimination is a big issue where I live (and impacts my folks in their old age) and it's something that really ticks me off. It's wrong. He's old enough for age to be a concern, but not enough to impact a vote - it's not like he's driving his cars into other people's houses due to age. Also, with that entourage and the best socialized medicine money can buy, he'll be fine. Someone not voting for McCain due to age, to me, is just as bad as someone not voting for Obama because he's black... If McCain was too old or not fit to run, he wouldn't have.

I was with you until you equated age with color. It's not the same thing in this case. However, where it would make a fundamental difference is a pretty narrow set of circumstances.

For example, let's say we have an Independent voter who is leaning for McCain. McCain taps Mike "change the constitution for Jesus" Huckabee as his running mate. Well, if a voter found Huckabee's political views to be troubling, they'd have to weigh the fact that there's a 1 in 6 chance that Huckabee would be rounding out McCain's first term. And while the VP nominee would be a factor in some people's decisions anyway (statistically it's not many though), the greater chance of McCain dying while in office would be a reasonable factor to consider.

Overall, I'm not worried about age and would rather them concentrate on the issues. I think it's Obama's strongest point for election anyway.

That would be a better post if the Republicans weren't famous for using sleazy tactics, and not just racism.

Yep only republicans use dirty campaign tactics. Sometimes the partisan slant of this board is appaling.

You are arguing a point that no one is making, with the exception of the two posters who are blindly loyal to the democrats.

Well, if you're referring to me, that wouldn't be accurate. I'm a Reaganite, voted for Bush Sr., as well as Elizabeth Dole and campaigned for McCain in 2000. Hell, the Dems get dirty too - it was Hillary's insistence on doing so that cost her my vote during this primary season. It's just the Republican Party ain't what it used to be. Hell hath no fury like a fiscal conservative scorned.

And yes, I think msduncan is either such an ideologue that he either can't recognize racism (subtle and overt) when used in politics because he's so blinded to the rhetoric of the neocons or he is truly racially biased. If he's uncomfortable with that characterization, well, I'm uncomfortable with some of his stances and comments regarding race.

Let's pretend for a moment that such wild supposition could be backed up with clips of all the nasty race-based innuendo lobbed at Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice by major media outlets like CNN and MSNBC -- which it can't. How would that excuse the *actual* nasty race-based innuendo propagated by Fox News or Rush "Barack the Magic Negro" Limbaugh, or justify msduncan's anger at Obama for calling them out about it?

Because I'm not a goddamn racist, but he called me out about it too since I'm a Republican.

First of all: quite pretending the Democrats are innocent.Secondly: neither of those people were a candidate for President.

1) Quit insinuating guilt based on what you think might happen if John McCain were black, Barack Obama were white, and everyone on the starship Enterprise wore a beard.

2) So you're suggesting that the Democrats are guilty of theoretical eagerness to launch a race-based smear campaign against a Republican...but would inexplicably limit those attacks to hypothetical presidential candidates? Are there any other odd conditions you'd like to add to their presupposed racism?

Quote from: msduncan

Quote

partisan liberal opinions

We differ on partisan opinions. I have my own partisan opinions on how foreign and domestic policy has been the last decade.

Then perhaps you have some facts to back them up. If so, I recommend your next thread be titled "A Great Eight Years" and that you fill it with examples of all the wonderful policies the Bush administration has enacted to bring us the strong, stable economy, sustainable energy policy, and well-managed, effective war plan you think we enjoy today. I can't wait to read it.

By contrast, this thread is based entirely on the fact that Barack Obama hurt your feelings when he took on the malicious, deceitful, race-baiting whisper campaign that's being aggressively propagated through conservative outlets like Fox News. You've spent the entire time casting about for some way to justify the numerous examples you've been given, arguing that purely conjectural Democratic racism is somehow worse, and best of all, trying to explain how Barack Obama is out of line for mentioning direct personal attacks against him, but you should be allowed to start profane threads about imaginary attacks against you.

If you think this thread is really working out well for you, I'll look forward to reading more of these too.

In the modern political era, the republicans codified racist politics into their platform. That's a fact, not an opinion.

"I'm not blindly loyal to the democrats!"

"BTW, the republicans are racist! That's a fact, not an opinion."

I see that you edited your post to remove the part where you called me an "apeshit partisan," huh?

As usual, you misrepresent other people's words - again, I've voted for republicans, as recently as four years ago. I've criticized the politics of democrats as well - just this week, Steny Hoyer and the blue dog democrats have betrayed the party.

As for the "southern strategy", the RNC issued an apology for the use of "racial polarization". There's no question that the Republican party explicitly attempted to exploit the racial fears of southerners to get votes.

And to make your point even clearer, you then go on to attack the republicans!

Quote

In the modern political era, the republicans codified racist politics into their platform. That's a fact, not an opinion.

There's the blindness people, including myself, have been talking about, if you didn't notice. Only an apeshit partisan could argue that they're not blindly devoted to their party with an attack on the opposition party and think they're making sense.

cheeba, certainly a very nuanced "independent, leaning conservative" like yourself understands that expressing distaste for one thing does not suggest blind loyalty to something else.

For example, I dislike the obnoxious cutscenes in the Devil May Cry games, the very poor character interactions in Larry Niven's Ringworld, and the total lack of independent oversight on the Bush administrations warrentless wiretapping of American citzens. Does that automatically mean that I'm blindly and irrationally loyal to Ninja Gaiden, Shakespearean tragedies, and anyone who honors and obeys the Constitution of the United States?

I see that you edited your post to remove the part where you called me an "apeshit partisan," huh?

I like my posts to be concise. There was no need for me to call you an apeshit partisan when your own words reveal this truth. Not that I think it's wrong or whatever to call you an apeshit partisan, or megalopartisan as I've said before, I just think the edit was less wordy.

Quote

As usual, you misrepresent other people's words - again, I've voted for republicans, as recently as four years ago. I've criticized the politics of democrats as well - just this week, Steny Hoyer and the blue dog democrats have betrayed the party.

There was no misrepresentation whatsoever. I didn't say you've not voted for republicans, even though I'm pretty sure you're one of the guys who have doubted me when I've said (and continue to believe) that I'm very strongly considering voting for Obama. I merely pointed out the comedy in your post, where in the beginning you argue that you are not a blind partisan and in the end you essentially say, "oh yeah, btw, republicans are racist."

It's like if I argued that I am a nice guy, and ended with "oh yeah, fuck all of you in the ear."

Well, you can just read the Autistic Angel post above yours again - distaste for the policy goals of the republican party does not make one a "partisan loyalist" in favor of democrats. Ignoring the facts of your party's history does, however; if Ken Mehlman can acknowledge the GOP's attempts to divide people based on their race, why can't you?